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入る - i ru: It means to go in/into, to get in, to enter, to break into
身 - mi: body, one's place, one's position

Yes true, we always use irimi to describe "going into" aite. Even when leaving the line and letting aite pass through not this is called irimi but maybe tori nuke or something like that. irimi is the coming back, the stepping in onto aite or his place.

Irimi nage (at us!) is called this way because for throwing we step into and through aite. (As shown in the video.) It is not called irimi nage because of the iniating steps. If we throw directly it maybe called irimi nage omote. If we let aite pass through and turn around it maybe called irimi nage ura.

Here examples of tori nuke, letting aite pass through. Even if sensei sometimes gets behind aite I wouldn't call this or think of this as irimi.

Hi again. That second video. I love it. Just by viewing I can say in my opinion that ther is a man who understands irimi in it's fullness. I say this because from my view there is one other part of irimi as a natural motion which I haven't mentioned and which I see he knows. I can but smile in appreciation.

When the person enters in the first part and stops and thus can be hit I would say Endo Sensei was showing how just entering off line is not the whole of irimi.

He then proceeds to do two very good examples or irimi motion, excellent.

The rest of the video shows more, albeit I can see the basic principle of irmi in most of the moves there is also much more to admire. But sticking to lines and moving off lines then we would have to go into the awareness of and use of eight directions in this video. He seems to be a master of it.

So yes I would say that shows irimi motion in it's fullness and now I will have to explain why I say this. Oh dear, well allow me to try.

First I will ask you to look at something if you will have the patience to bare with me. I ask you to look at a ship moving along in a calm sea. The front of the ship, the bough, cutting through the water.

Notice the energy patterns of the water displacement. 'V' shaped. Now whether it's a crocodile swimming along or whatever this shows the natural path of energy. This is irmi motion.

Now notice that the thing moving foreward draws energy in behind it also. Thus we have irimi in it's fullness which means if you follow this path you will in fact be doing more of a zig zag and that is what I call complete irimi.

Now if I am approaching a lamp post standing there in my path then I can take one step off line to pass it (zig) and the second step back to the original path (zag) and carry on walking on my path. Irimi. Or as I say complete irimi. In this way I have passed behind, like a skier does going down the mountain weaving in and out through those poles. Irimi.

I noticed Endo Senseis energy was not only passing but was then entering behind as if joining with the ship. Excellent.

Now in my Aikido I could demonstrate what I call a short cut iriminage and that looks like basically I'm doing a clothes line like you may see in wrestling or something.

That is not one for the beginner to focus on in my mind for it looks like I am going straight for the opponent and thus others would see it as such and copy it from that view. However, energy wise it is no different from a complete irimi motion and that cannot be seen so until someone is used to and good at and understands that energy motion then I defer them from trying it.

Hi. I'm glad you said that Kevin. For that statement leads to the core of irimi, the secret of irimi.

In practice I prefer, in fact by far prefer, facing a sword (bokken) empty handed. This is where you learn the core of irimi.

This is where you learn irimi for you definitely don't stay on line yet you do have to enter to join, to take control, to be with. Of course the practice would be from a shomen attack.

From a yokomen attack you would learn the core of tai sabaki used for turning inside too.

But back to the point. Empty handed against shomen doing irimi done expertly leaves you standing behind or at worst part next to and part behind. It's a scary discipline for to get it right the off line is very close to the actual line, therefore not as much as 45 degrees, more like 10 or 20.

It feels very 'sacrificial' until you are used to it at which point it feels the safest thing to do. Hence the need for calm mind and the complete awareness of center line.

Of course in real situations the first thought is to interrupt or parry and move etc. but hence my view that beyond that, you can learn to move in such a way that it becomes more effective than interfering and thus my view of aiki motion.

Both work, both disciplines.

Regards.G.

I think I could change your opinion on this very quickly if we got together, and I mean that in the most sincere way Graham. In my work with Soldiers we go through drills that teach them to deal with the decision cycle under stress.

One good example is the use of tactical folders as a back up weapon for self defense. I am not a fan. Many guys are. Alot of military guys are, especially the Automatic Benchmade Knifes. Very nice knife...I have one myself and they work good to cut stuff with when you only have one hand in an awkard position.

As a weapon of self defense though, I have found they don't work so well. How is this related to the discussion?

Well, all the guys that have them and believe in them as a CQB back up weapon have never really tried to deploy them under stress. They have this vision of clinching and then reaching for the weapon and using it.

In my experiences...i'd say 9 out of 10 times it becomes a liability trying to deploy it. you drop it, you are understress trying to get it out, it gets out of your control......

What we found is that you cannot deploy it under stress MOST of the time until you have gained control of the situation. Therefore, you need to gain structural control over your opponent as the primary means of choice rather than drawing the weapon first.

I think this is related to our discussion. Yes, with lots of knowledge of what is going to happen, you can MOVE off the line to a position of advantage. In reality, this luxury is never afforded to you. We have this vision about what we'd like to see happen, and then we have reality.

So, yes, if I had time and knowledge that someone was attacking me, then i'd move off the line behind them...or in the case of the tactical folder...I'd already have it out and drawn.

This is the real problem with things and why moving off the line is not a "bad" thing do to. It just isn't what we CAN do in most cases.

Going back to the fast moving bus analogy. Yes, of course we'd jump out of the way of the bus if we had time and knowledge that it was coming at us. Alas, if we don't have that knowledge...then we must deal with the actual bus! Of course we can't move into the Bus effectively and deal with it as it will kill us...but it is the same logic. Dealing with people though...they aren't buses and if we have the "goods" we can deal with them.

Kevin, I started to quote something in this post, but it's pretty much the whole thing that should be in the marks... This is one of the best posts I've seen in a long time. Truth from those that have been there and done that. One of those truths is that if you produce a knife, someone's most likely going to get cut in the struggle. It often isn't the original attacker. I carry a Benchmade and sometimes teach "special students" that have reached a level of ability where they can really do what's necessary structurally speaking how to use this as a tool to help them rather than the opponent. As you've been "preaching" for a long time now, of doing what we "can" do given the circumstances and taking the best control position possible while gaining the advantage. It's not "fun" practicing this if it's done properly and most people in a dojo don't want to do it. This level of practice isn't done during regular practice in our dojo. There are practices that can build posture, distance, timing, etc. under stress that can lead up to this though. Most aikidoka don't train that way. Thanks for telling it straight.

Thanks Chuck. Means a lot coming from you. Yes, as you know training this way requires some build up. I had a group of guys last year in Afghanistan that wanted to train under stress. I spent about a month helping them develop the basic skills necessary to provide them the basic structure necessary to make the stress training meaningful and safe. This 46 second video demonstrates the culmination of this process working on some basic "ground and pound" MMA skills.

Keep in mind these guys had no formal training and no skill prior to training with me and this represents about 25 hours of training. The things I was looking for is the guy on his back is able to manage the fight from his back from the guard, create distance, and minimize the damage. It is only at the end of the video that the guy on his back is able to sweep and reverse the situation and begin to achieve dominance.

Sorry this is not really related to the post about irimi, but I think it speaks to methodology in general and is relevant to what Chuck mentions as an example of what I believe is "decent" stress training that actually leads to a constructive learning process.

And correct..you can't do this every day it is the culmination of a training cycle, and is done for very specific reasons that are really beyond the focuses of most dojos.

I was leery to post, but since I referenced Amdur Sensei's article in another post, I thought I should.

As best as I can tell, irrimi is one of those screwy things in aikido where we have a physical technique as well as a philosophical principle. We learn one to understand the other and I think there are already some good posts on this thread about that, including the article itself.

My understanding of irrimi is similar to Fred's definition. In this sense, "irrimi" is the concept of entering into our opponent's body in order to connect and control her center. Physically, this concept can be executed in a number of ways. In any case, the spirit of irrimi is to confront the attack not evade it. The technical achievement of irrimi is to displace the attack and dissolve its power.

I have included a Friendship demo of Sunadomari Sensei. He was a big fan of this "greeting" irrimi and you can see the entering movement in many of his techniques. You'll also notice he spends time talking about removing power:http://youtu.be/uOKRlgUYlsM

We talk about marubashi, the concept of your partner abandoning the line of attack while you maintain a direct line [of attack] into your partner. Amdur Sensei talks about occupying space and that is a key concept of irrimi for me (I am trying to get Ledyard sensei to write a piece on this topic). I don't care where you put your feet, if you don't enter into your partner's space and take their center you are not doing irrimi.

There are very few unique ideas...just a re-iteration of a lot of good ones. Kevin and I share an Aikido teacher....one of the rules of the dojo was "if you have time to block, you have time to hit". It really is a change in mindset...I wrote an article for our dojo newsletter called "Re-defining the Line of attack" based on Galeone Sensei's premise mentioned earlier. Control the situation through superior tactical advantage before deploying "technique".

Mark, it may be theory, but it came from a guy that understands the essence of what is important. I am constantly hit over with the head and find myself saying "that is what Bob said!" Good to hear from you brother!

My understanding of irrimi is similar to Fred's definition. In this sense, "irrimi" is the concept of entering into our opponent's body in order to connect and control her center. Physically, this concept can be executed in a number of ways. In any case, the spirit of irrimi is to confront the attack not evade it. The technical achievement of irrimi is to displace the attack and dissolve its power.

It is my definition too.

You made me think of something that has not been addressed. The concept of "pre-emptive strike".

Really I think this is a very related issue and one that centers heavily around ethics and the ethical employment of force.

For me, irimi is not pre-emptive. pre-emptive means you are attacking uke before he attacks you. As most of us know the doctrine of pre-emptive strike employed by the U.S. in Iraq has been a source of controversy.

So, if I enter into nage and disrupt him (attack) before he attacks I think it is one set of ethics. If I respond when he attacks another....I think this concept is covered well in the Oscar O'ratti book dealing with the four possible scenarios of attack.

When Graham discusses moving behind uke by moving off the line before uke attacks...I see this as pre-emptive. Of course, what you do once you achieve this position affects the ethics of the situation, but the fact is...you have done SOMETHING that uke must now react to in some way. I would say, for most situations in which he felt threatened and exposed, it will serve to escalate the situation.

Is that good or bad? I think it depends, but at the base level YOU did something that caused Uke to respond.

On the other hand, if Uke moves first and attacks, and I respond...well then it might be different even though the outcome ends up the same.

I am not saying what is right or wrong...only that we need to consider all the factors that go into the situations we might find ourselves in.

One of the Japanese teachers I know says regarding irimi and not trying to preempt uke: "Let uke feel as if he has been able to complete his strike. But now you are behind him, and all his power is gone."

One good example is the use of tactical folders as a back up weapon for self defense. I am not a fan. Many guys are. Alot of military guys are, especially the Automatic Benchmade Knifes. Very nice knife...I have one myself and they work good to cut stuff with when you only have one hand in an awkard position.

As a weapon of self defense though, I have found they don't work so well. How is this related to the discussion?

Well, all the guys that have them and believe in them as a CQB back up weapon have never really tried to deploy them under stress. They have this vision of clinching and then reaching for the weapon and using it.

In my experiences...i'd say 9 out of 10 times it becomes a liability trying to deploy it. you drop it, you are understress trying to get it out, it gets out of your control......

What we found is that you cannot deploy it under stress MOST of the time until you have gained control of the situation. Therefore, you need to gain structural control over your opponent as the primary means of choice rather than drawing the weapon first.

I think this is related to our discussion. Yes, with lots of knowledge of what is going to happen, you can MOVE off the line to a position of advantage. In reality, this luxury is never afforded to you. We have this vision about what we'd like to see happen, and then we have reality.

So, yes, if I had time and knowledge that someone was attacking me, then i'd move off the line behind them...or in the case of the tactical folder...I'd already have it out and drawn.

This is the real problem with things and why moving off the line is not a "bad" thing do to. It just isn't what we CAN do in most cases.

Going back to the fast moving bus analogy. Yes, of course we'd jump out of the way of the bus if we had time and knowledge that it was coming at us. Alas, if we don't have that knowledge...then we must deal with the actual bus! Of course we can't move into the Bus effectively and deal with it as it will kill us...but it is the same logic. Dealing with people though...they aren't buses and if we have the "goods" we can deal with them.

Mark, it may be theory, but it came from a guy that understands the essence of what is important. I am constantly hit over with the head and find myself saying "that is what Bob said!" Good to hear from you brother!

One of the Japanese teachers I know says regarding irimi and not trying to preempt uke: "Let uke feel as if he has been able to complete his strike. But now you are behind him, and all his power is gone."

This is important. In this timing, tori should wait until the attacker feels they have succeeded... and then enter, in whatever direction you decide. This is sen no sen timing done really well, in my opinion.

Of course, go no sen is evasion of some kind letting the attack spend it's energy and making your attack using tori's energy as it's finishing the attack cycle. When the timing is really fine, you can enter (irimi) tori's power structure while going backwards interrupting tori's back muscles firing to recover. This often is felt by tori as a small explosion or even the muscles seeming to "seize up" for an instant.

However, there is another timing, sen sen no sen, where tori is just deciding to attack and just as the signal is going on it's path to move into the attack, you move, which forces the attack just before it starts, or just as it starts but very little power has come into the attack. This is not really the common idea of a preemptive strike, but it's extremely powerful and upsetting to tori's mind. When done properly, tori is trapped into a recovery cycle before they can attack again.

This is important. In this timing, tori should wait until the attacker feels they have succeeded... and then enter, in whatever direction you decide. This is sen no sen timing done really well, in my opinion.

Of course, go no sen is evasion of some kind letting the attack spend it's energy and making your attack using tori's energy as it's finishing the attack cycle. When the timing is really fine, you can enter (irimi) tori's power structure while going backwards interrupting tori's back muscles firing to recover. This often is felt by tori as a small explosion or even the muscles seeming to "seize up" for an instant.

However, there is another timing, sen sen no sen, where tori is just deciding to attack and just as the signal is going on it's path to move into the attack, you move, which forces the attack just before it starts, or just as it starts but very little power has come into the attack. This is not really the common idea of a preemptive strike, but it's extremely powerful and upsetting to tori's mind. When done properly, tori is trapped into a recovery cycle before they can attack again.

in dojo practice, it's hard to use one timing over and over, because uke tends to anticipate and hold back on the attack. methink, if nage/tori randomized the timings: go no sen, sen no sen, sen sen no sen, i don't make sense, then uke would have a hard time to anticipate.

in dojo practice, it's hard to use one timing over and over, because uke tends to anticipate and hold back on the attack. methink, if nage/tori randomized the timings: go no sen, sen no sen, sen sen no sen, i don't make sense, then uke would have a hard time to anticipate.

You made me think of something that has not been addressed. The concept of "pre-emptive strike".

Really I think this is a very related issue and one that centers heavily around ethics and the ethical employment of force.

For me, irimi is not pre-emptive. pre-emptive means you are attacking uke before he attacks you. As most of us know the doctrine of pre-emptive strike employed by the U.S. in Iraq has been a source of controversy.

So, if I enter into nage and disrupt him (attack) before he attacks I think it is one set of ethics. If I respond when he attacks another....I think this concept is covered well in the Oscar O'ratti book dealing with the four possible scenarios of attack.

When Graham discusses moving behind uke by moving off the line before uke attacks...I see this as pre-emptive. Of course, what you do once you achieve this position affects the ethics of the situation, but the fact is...you have done SOMETHING that uke must now react to in some way. I would say, for most situations in which he felt threatened and exposed, it will serve to escalate the situation.

Is that good or bad? I think it depends, but at the base level YOU did something that caused Uke to respond.

On the other hand, if Uke moves first and attacks, and I respond...well then it might be different even though the outcome ends up the same.

I am not saying what is right or wrong...only that we need to consider all the factors that go into the situations we might find ourselves in.

I think Kevin it is not so simple.
I believe that that it is not an attack itself that is so important and it has nothing to do with ethics. It is enough that an attacker creates an important threat for you. I.e. you are walking on the street and you see that group of ppl start to surround you. It is not yet an attack but it is clearly dangerous for you. You have to enter immediately otherwise it will be too late. Of course your judgment must be right; you have to clearly perceive bad intent.

The perception of the intent of attacker is one of most important elements in aikido training I believe.

The perception of the intent of attacker is one of most important elements in aikido training I believe.

I agree with you. In fact, over the years, I've agreed with you quite a lot. Not always in method of delivery... but, content, yes. I think it's not only perceiving the intent, but joining it... not in social values, etc., but in (this is difficult to put in words) energy quantities. Kind of like walking with your special someone holding hands, equalizing the feeling in both directions without squeezing too hard or being "less than..."

You made me think of something that has not been addressed. The concept of "pre-emptive strike".

Really I think this is a very related issue and one that centers heavily around ethics and the ethical employment of force.

For me, irimi is not pre-emptive. pre-emptive means you are attacking uke before he attacks you. As most of us know the doctrine of pre-emptive strike employed by the U.S. in Iraq has been a source of controversy.

So, if I enter into nage and disrupt him (attack) before he attacks I think it is one set of ethics. If I respond when he attacks another....I think this concept is covered well in the Oscar O'ratti book dealing with the four possible scenarios of attack.

When Graham discusses moving behind uke by moving off the line before uke attacks...I see this as pre-emptive. Of course, what you do once you achieve this position affects the ethics of the situation, but the fact is...you have done SOMETHING that uke must now react to in some way. I would say, for most situations in which he felt threatened and exposed, it will serve to escalate the situation.

Is that good or bad? I think it depends, but at the base level YOU did something that caused Uke to respond.

On the other hand, if Uke moves first and attacks, and I respond...well then it might be different even though the outcome ends up the same.

I am not saying what is right or wrong...only that we need to consider all the factors that go into the situations we might find ourselves in.

When you pre-emptively move off line and arrive 'behind' it cannot actually escalate the situation. You would have to feel it to know why but I'll put it this way. You would have to imagine yourself as the attacker and just as your committing the opponent is there close but 'behind' you, possibly with a knife to your throat. End of play.

Now if I remove the knife to throat bit the same applies. You automatically know you're done for. You have already lost. The nage is in total control by position ready to end it and boy you know it. You know it's finished, over, done. No escalation is possible. That's the whole point of irimi in the first place.

Thanks Chuck. Means a lot coming from you. Yes, as you know training this way requires some build up. I had a group of guys last year in Afghanistan that wanted to train under stress. I spent about a month helping them develop the basic skills necessary to provide them the basic structure necessary to make the stress training meaningful and safe. This 46 second video demonstrates the culmination of this process working on some basic "ground and pound" MMA skills.

Keep in mind these guys had no formal training and no skill prior to training with me and this represents about 25 hours of training. The things I was looking for is the guy on his back is able to manage the fight from his back from the guard, create distance, and minimize the damage. It is only at the end of the video that the guy on his back is able to sweep and reverse the situation and begin to achieve dominance.

Sorry this is not really related to the post about irimi, but I think it speaks to methodology in general and is relevant to what Chuck mentions as an example of what I believe is "decent" stress training that actually leads to a constructive learning process.

And correct..you can't do this every day it is the culmination of a training cycle, and is done for very specific reasons that are really beyond the focuses of most dojos.

Hi Kevin. Training under stress. Nice video, so now I see what you mean by stress training. Not Aikido but more to do with not giving up and keeping going, with some technical something no doubt.

This is where I feel differentiation is needed because I hear many talk about under stress and under pressure and lack of it or need for more of it etc. It produces the keep going factor and over time the acclimatization to such pressure so that you can still think on you feet so to speak. That's all well and good but is separate to the disciplined calm continued practice of individual techniques and motions needed to perfect skills. One does not mean the other is wrong, I think you'll agree.

Now back to Irimi. Just to let you see another viewpoint and how training specific for combat etc. doesn't HAVE to be pressure training.

A few years ago my friend asked for some private lessons as he works undercover in the police force and deals with quite a few violent and scary situations. His friend said what I teach wouldn't suit him so he went elsewhere.

Anyway, due to his communication and seeing what he was after I had him practicing remaining calm and the purpose and uses of irimi motion as I described above. He came only twice a week for a few weeks but my aim was to get him to see how that motion worked for real and how it was inherent in other aikido 'techniques' as well. His favourite being Tenshinage. Thus I showed and had him doing over and over Tenshinage from the viewpoint of it being first the irimi motion and the rst being the result of.

He had to keep at it until he saw and could demonstrate that principle. In other words connect it all up.

Anyway to cut a long story short he turns up a few weeks later like a cat that's got the cream. He had handled a gunman with that exact same thing he had been practicing disarming and apprehending someone turning a gun on him at close range trying to kill him. He actually got honoured for that later.

So all ways are useful if taught or practiced well and really that's the bottom line.

When you pre-emptively move off line and arrive 'behind' it cannot actually escalate the situation. You would have to feel it to know why but I'll put it this way. You would have to imagine yourself as the attacker and just as your committing the opponent is there close but 'behind' you, possibly with a knife to your throat. End of play.

Now if I remove the knife to throat bit the same applies. You automatically know you're done for. You have already lost. The nage is in total control by position ready to end it and boy you know it. You know it's finished, over, done. No escalation is possible. That's the whole point of irimi in the first place.

Regards.G.

I guess I, and some others taking part in this discussion that have, it appears, somewhat different experiences outside the dojo, would have a disagreement with you about this point.