This is an English language site, so it is safe to assume that many members here do not know French. When French was used in the middle of a heated discussion, AxelRocks sensed that she was being slighted, being excluded from the conversation. I was merely attempting to clarify the situation for her and Therese. If you will note, I translated the French so that dear AR could see that nothing snotty had been said.

_________________"One grows accustomed to one's enemy, and by making it familiar one loses the desire to get rid of it...." Marquise de la Tour du Pin, in a letter to her friend Mme. de Duras.

Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:42 am

Pimprenelle

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 amPosts: 2040

Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Sorry to read that French is no longer welcome on this board... especially when we know that Marie Antoinette wrote her whole correspondence in French !

_________________te voir encore me rappelle à la vie

Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:42 am

Hans Axel

Duc/Duchesse

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:12 pmPosts: 219Location: Sweden

Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Pimprenelle wrote:

...especially when we know that Marie Antoinette wrote her whole correspondence in French !

As did Fersen.

_________________Blifwit quar, igen

Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:14 pm

AxelRocksMyWorld

Comte/Comtesse

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:13 amPosts: 49Location: Florida

Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

I'm feeling like a butt here. I respect all of you and thank you for making this great site. I am in awe of the ability to speak more than one language. I never meant that you shouldn't write in French, but if you are directing what you say toward a comment an English speaking only person made than it is kinda snotty. olive branch.....??

_________________"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown."-William Shakespeare

Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:12 pm

Marija Vera

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:50 pmPosts: 1681

Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Dear AxelRocksMyWorld, you are very welcomed here so please don’t go! About languages, at least you can speak the English right! Anyway, I can see that you have a great spirit, I like that very much!

About the subject-Opinions are different and I agree with Christophe about this subjects. I am only interested in one thing -

Does anyone, who is supporting the view that M.A. and Axel never had a liaison, thinks that the other opinion may do harm and support the fake image of Marie Antoinette being frivolous and easy? Do you think that this (if it was a fact) would show us her character in a different light? Honestly...

_________________If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men. St. Francis of Assisi

Does anyone, who is supporting the view that M.A. and Axel never had a liaison, thinks that the other opinion may do harm and support the fake image of Marie Antoinette being frivolous and easy? Do you think that this (if it was a fact) would show us her character in a different light? Honestly...

What a difficult question! Yes, I believe there are many who would see this as a bad reflection upon the Queen's character. Personally, I would not. She was a woman first, and a Queen second.

_________________"One grows accustomed to one's enemy, and by making it familiar one loses the desire to get rid of it...." Marquise de la Tour du Pin, in a letter to her friend Mme. de Duras.

Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:43 pm

Christophe

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:04 amPosts: 253Location: Texas.

Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Pimprenelle wrote:

Sorry to read that French is no longer welcome on this board... especially when we know that Marie Antoinette wrote her whole correspondence in French !

My dear Pimprenelle, by all means, French is welcome! It is a lovely language. But please, could you also post an English translation for those of us who do not understand?

_________________"One grows accustomed to one's enemy, and by making it familiar one loses the desire to get rid of it...." Marquise de la Tour du Pin, in a letter to her friend Mme. de Duras.

Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:48 pm

Madame Vigée-Le Brun

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:10 pmPosts: 276

Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Christophe wrote:

She was a woman first, and a Queen second.

Very well said.

I also would not see this as a bad reflection upon her character. And if there someday is proof, I would not love her any less for it.

Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:56 pm

Princess2

Marquis/Marquise

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:52 pmPosts: 101

Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Madame Vigée-Le Brun wrote:

I also would not see this as a bad reflection upon her character. And if there someday is proof, I would not love her any less for it

Me either Madame Vigee-Le Brun. Many MA fans believe it's a possibility that something DID occur between her and Fersen anyway, and they have a good opinion of her. However, to her detractors it might enforce their views of her as being "frivolous and easy". Personally I don't think there was any romantic involvement between them.

_________________"It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom, for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

From the Declaration of Arbroath (Scottish Declaration of Independence), 1320.

Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:04 am

Pimprenelle

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 amPosts: 2040

Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Marija Vera wrote:

Does anyone, who is supporting the view that M.A. and Axel never had a liaison, thinks that the other opinion may do harm and support the fake image of Marie Antoinette being frivolous and easy? Do you think that this (if it was a fact) would show us her character in a different light? Honestly...

The problem is not there, in my opinion. First of all, the problem is that many people consider this purpoted liaison a reality, though there are no proofs, no evidences of it. Furthermore, those historians who want so hard to believe in this physical relation rely on analyses that clearly are not accurate, this book by Alma Söderjhelm so often quoted.

Then, many people use nowadays thinkings and moral conceptions for applying them to Marie Antoinette. This is a totally wrong approach of this subject, and of History generally speaking. On the contrary, we have to understand Marie Antoinette for what she was, a queen of France in XVIIIth century and an Habsbourg archduchess.

My impression is that, precisely, Fersen loved her so much for those two reasons...

So would I. Following Amanda Foreman's researchs, Bess wrote to Georgiana that Fersen was moved by her misfortunes, that he even cried and that, one evening, he kissed her before she could realize what was happening. But nothing more.

_________________te voir encore me rappelle à la vie

Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:07 pm

Marija Vera

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:50 pmPosts: 1681

Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Pimprenelle wrote:

Then, many people use nowadays thinkings and moral conceptions for applying them to Marie Antoinette. This is a totally wrong approach of this subject, and of History generally speaking. On the contrary, we have to understand Marie Antoinette for what she was, a queen of France in XVIIIth century and an Habsbourg archduchess.

My impression is that, precisely, Fersen loved her so much for those two reasons...

So in a way if they had a liaison that would show us her character in a different light, that she didn’t take her duties seriously and that her moral standards were quite low. I am interested in your personal opinion; would that liaison (if someday we find some proof) change your personal view of her character?

I am interested, while discussing this topic, beside the technical, physical problems of them finding time and place to be together, are you also discussing was she, as a person, capable of having that sort of liaison and cheating on her husband.

_________________If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men. St. Francis of Assisi

Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:29 pm

Pimprenelle

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 amPosts: 2040

Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Well, dear, I have no problem with Marie Antoinette having a liaison. This would not change for a iota my love and admiration for her.

However, I am not interested in people's opinions, I am interested in historical facts. These I study and question, the best I can.

And, as far as personal feelings are concerned, I always try to put myself into Antoinette's shoes, that is very difficult an exercise, taking into account her so specific education and position.

Your remark about Antoinette cheating on her husband is quite interesting, for all these liaisons stories always rely on Louis XVI's approval, sooner or later. Indeed, it would have been impossible for Marie Antoinette and Fersen to meet, otherwise. Though, when you read those books that compare Louis' and Antoinette's psychologies (Girault de Coursac, Felix, for instance), you see that Louis XVI was not that kind of husband who would allow his wife to maintain a liaison for years. He was the king, after all !

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