eddysnake wrote:Don't the VFX teams bid out for these projects essentially putting themselves into these positions? I don't doubt that this is a serious issue, but I'd worry less about what Ang Lee said and more about the VFX industry with technology being where it is today. That was a dick move by the academy producers though.

A big part of the problem is something like $400 million in "subsidies" from the Canadian government to lure post production companies up north. This allows the post houses to underbid projects by absolutely ridiculous amounts. It goes like this: Canadian gov't will give a U.S. post house a $5 million tax credit to move their operations to Vancouver (hiring local artists, compositors, animators, etc) for the eighteen months needed to complete their work, which allows said house to underbid a job by that $5 million...... a job which might be worth $12 million on the 'fair' market. That's a 40% discount.

It would be one thing if the Canadian gov't was offering the subsidies to Canadian businesses. That's kosher. But by offering the subsidies to U.S. companies to lure them up north, that is against the express provisions of the WTO agreement, and it needs to be called out. It has had a really deleterious effect on the local entertainment industry. This practice has been going on since the late 90s when so-called 'runaway productions' were gaining in popularity. For example, almost all of "The X-Files" was shot in Canada, thanks to these massive government subsidies. It's only just recently that it's really coming to the VFX community.

There is also a growing practice of U.S. post houses winning bids by matching the subsidy-bolstered bids, and then using unpaid college interns to do a huge chunk of the work. That's not cool, either. But it's one of the only ways the U.S. companies can compete. Sucks.

eddysnake wrote:Don't the VFX teams bid out for these projects essentially putting themselves into these positions? I don't doubt that this is a serious issue, but I'd worry less about what Ang Lee said and more about the VFX industry with technology being where it is today. That was a dick move by the academy producers though.

A big part of the problem is something like $400 million in "subsidies" from the Canadian government to lure post production companies up north. This allows the post houses to underbid projects by absolutely ridiculous amounts. It goes like this: Canadian gov't will give a U.S. post house a $5 million tax credit to move their operations to Vancouver (hiring local artists, compositors, animators, etc) for the eighteen months needed to complete their work, which allows said house to underbid a job by that $5 million...... a job which might be worth $12 million on the 'fair' market. That's a 40% discount.

It would be one thing if the Canadian gov't was offering the subsidies to Canadian businesses. That's kosher. But by offering the subsidies to U.S. companies to lure them up north, that is against the express provisions of the WTO agreement, and it needs to be called out. It has had a really deleterious effect on the local entertainment industry. This practice has been going on since the late 90s when so-called 'runaway productions' were gaining in popularity. For example, almost all of "The X-Files" was shot in Canada, thanks to these massive government subsidies. It's only just recently that it's really coming to the VFX community.

There is also a growing practice of U.S. post houses winning bids by matching the subsidy-bolstered bids, and then using unpaid college interns to do a huge chunk of the work. That's not cool, either. But it's one of the only ways the U.S. companies can compete. Sucks.

that's interesting and unfortunate. Sounds like the VFX industry needs to make a stand together, unfortunately with the business being a money game, that might me easier said than done.

how long until cgi is a commodity or close to it? how long until a small independent production company can effectively pull off a movie like Transformers or Avatar?

I think it will be much sooner than later. It's happened in the music industry - a group like Breathe Carolina releases professional sounding recordings that were made with nothing more than a Macbook.

This film is getting some interest in Hollywood. It was something a single german animation student put together. Alone, without a kabillion dollars worth of servers.

tifosi77 wrote: This practice has been going on since the late 90s when so-called 'runaway productions' were gaining in popularity. For example, almost all of "The X-Files" was shot in Canada, thanks to these massive government subsidies.

I'll take Canada over eastern Europe. I get so tired of seeing Bulgaria standing Anytown, USA.

Saw the new Die Hard. Wasn't terrible, but wasn't as good as the older ones. When I went to see this on Saturday, it was my first time at the movies since 2007. I was worried if they still served popcorn at the theaters, and am happy to report that they still do.

pittsoccer33 wrote:how long until cgi is a commodity or close to it? how long until a small independent production company can effectively pull off a movie like Transformers or Avatar?

I think it will be much sooner than later. It's happened in the music industry - a group like Breathe Carolina releases professional sounding recordings that were made with nothing more than a Macbook.

Well, look at a film like "District 9". It was made for a total budget of ~$30 million.... which might only be a portion the effects budget alone on a show like "Transformers".

pittsoccer33 wrote:This film is getting some interest in Hollywood. It was something a single german animation student put together. Alone, without a kabillion dollars worth of servers.

So is Ang Lee going to be the poster boy for not thanking his VSX team? Is this going to be a future requirement? What about all the winners in the past? IMO, the VSX industry comes off being extremely whiny when these images/stories come out (granted they did not to this, but it still reflects on them). It's really too bad that it works how it does, but then again it's hollywood and money is king. I get that Ang Lee is a producer on Life of Pi, so he probably had a hand in hiring the VSX team, but it feels like he's getting a bad rap by doing business as usual.

That's a wonderful reel, a résumé to get a job at a shop that has a kabillion dollars worth of servers. Because it still takes that to make photo-real imagery.

I guess my point is, in music we've stopped caring about real performances because with the digital tools we've developed we can get a really good recording (in the ears of most listeners) without actually having any musicians or musical instruments used to make it.

How far away are we from budget effects studios being able to use relatively mainstream CGI tools to create digital characters and environments with proper 3D lighting, shading, etc?

you still have real artists though working on this stuff, putting in the minor details that make little things realistic.

for example, the guy who developed the lighting program on Star Wars III that allowed Yoda's ear lobes to glow slightly when he passed infront of a light source - just the way a real ear glows a translucent pinkish.

or the person who animated the Hulk in Avengers. the script just said something like "Hulk fights off numerous Chetari" but some creative person added his kicking and tossing motions.

absolutely they are all artists, but with technology and cross training, I'm guessing the field of artists is much larger and accessible than it was in the past. you no longer have 6 houses doing the work and charging what they want

eddysnake wrote:I get that Ang Lee is a producer on Life of Pi, so he probably had a hand in hiring the VSX team, but it feels like he's getting a bad rap by doing business as usual.

That's kind of the problem.... this is business as usual. It's just now, business as usual is forcing some major effect houses (Digital Domain, Rhythm & Hues) into Chapter 11.

Should also point out that VFX is one of the few (only?) disciplines in the movie industry that has no collective bargaining arrangement. Not sure why that is, in a town that will literally shut down a set if it is learned that an actor drove themselves to the lot that morning.

That's where the term "TMZ" comes from, for the uninitiated. Productions that take place within a Thirty Mile Zone surrounding the intersection of Beverly and La Cienega (near the Beverly Center mall, which was destroyed in the movie "Volcano") are subject to the full panoply of union rates for everything from Teamsters to craft services to the Director of Photography to the Director to the actors on set.

eddysnake wrote:I get that Ang Lee is a producer on Life of Pi, so he probably had a hand in hiring the VSX team, but it feels like he's getting a bad rap by doing business as usual.

That's kind of the problem.... this is business as usual. It's just now, business as usual is forcing some major effect houses (Digital Domain, Rhythm & Hues) into Chapter 11.

Should also point out that VFX is one of the few (only?) disciplines in the movie industry that has no collective bargaining arrangement. Not sure why that is, in a town that will literally shut down a set if it is learned that an actor drove themselves to the lot that morning.

That's where the term "TMZ" comes from, for the uninitiated. Productions that take place within a Thirty Mile Zone surrounding the intersection of Beverly and La Cienega (near the Beverly Center mall, which was destroyed in the movie "Volcano") are subject to the full panoply of union rates for everything from Teamsters to craft services to the Director of Photography to the Director to the actors on set.

R&H just recently filed, was this because of work on Life of Pi or was it their current project ? Business as usual has obviously been the problem, hopefully they can do something about that, but it's a little surprising it's gone this long and finger pointing is where their at.

edit:pretty good article talking about R&H troubles.

R&H's financial downward financial spiral began in 2011 when Universal cancelled part of a contract on "Snow White and the Huntsman" after staffing and R&D were under way. Company sought an equity investor but their first deal fell through when the Digital Domain bankruptcy frightened off the potential partner. By January Warner, Fox and Universal had to step in to keep work moving. Fox and U. wanted R&H to declare bankruptcy, but Warners insisted it would pull its work if that happened. The trio settled on a financial mechanism one insider described as "neither a loan nor an investment."

Prime Focus stepped in as a potential buyer but was unable to raise the necessary funds to acquire R&H. At that point, R&H management decided bankruptcy was the best option. Warners is weighing its decision on how to proceed and negotiations with all three studios on the future of R&H's projects are ongoing.