No matter how one feels on the issue, there is no way to ignore the fact that local or even state laws cannot control unlicensed weapons and sources outside of their jurisdiction. Bad guys can get guns easily, and thoses who disagree with current regulations can get guns easily too, even if they are otherwise law-abiding citizens. I don't know the answer, but piecemeal efforts by local governments to control the problem are not likely to be too terribly successful. For that matter, there are so many guns in this country that I don't see how any new laws can appreciably reduce the number of weapons unless we just get all anal on the issue like we've been doing with drugs for the last fifty years.

Though of course the drug war has worked out well, hasn't it...

I agree, and when I hear people espousing that the US should follow in the footsteps of Australia, I cringe. Australia is basically an island, isolated, and has much more opportunity to control smuggling operations than we would here in the US. I think guns would still pour in over the Mexican border and straight to the black market.

I just looked for Chicago statistics. Haven't found anything definitive yet, only that most of the deaths have been via "shootings". And also that the biggest percentage are gang related. Once you toss violent street gangs into the mix, gun laws become almost irrelevant because no new laws are going to directly affect their ability to get weapons.

Luckily they shoot each other more than others, but I've no doubt many innocent bystanders, including kids, have suffered.

For the heck of it, I looked compared how many die in Chicago traffic accidents each year. They seem to hover around 150 a year, give or take a few dozen. So three times as many people get murdered in Chicago each year as die in accidents.

I live in Montana. Last year we had 28 murders in the whole state, and around 200 auto fatalities. To the Chicago ratio is 3/1, murder/car death-wise In Montana it is closer to 1/8.

No wonder I don't have to lock my doors. I should probably stop driving though.

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

I just looked for Chicago statistics. Haven't found anything definitive yet, only that most of the deaths have been via "shootings". And also that the biggest percentage are gang related. Once you toss violent street gangs into the mix, gun laws become almost irrelevant because no new laws are going to directly affect their ability to get weapons.

Luckily they shoot each other more than others, but I've no doubt many innocent bystanders, including kids, have suffered.

The numbers are staggering, but I'm thinking the problem that Chicago faces, along with more than couple of other cities, like Detriot and D.C., is poverty, the monetary chasm between the haves and the have-nots, and the lack of decent available education.

Then again, I could be wrong. Here's an interesting article about Houston, TX, where violent crime has seen a marked decrease, yet Texas has some of the most lax gun control laws in the country. And Houston isn't exactly a poverty free city.

The following link to the Rachel Maddow show from other night had a University of Missouri criminology professor with his take on gun control. He starts at about 5 minutes in. His first point about policing of criminal hot spots in large cities may be part of the downward trend that is showing up. He also says it would not work for the random suburban mass killings we see. He talks about restricting access to large capacity magazine clips as a necessary step. If the US could only attempt ideas without getting all hot and bothered, and reject the same ideas if they do not work. It seems our politics are too immature for that.

how many of them are gun related? If it is the most regulated market in the US[1], what does that mean? Keep in mind, "the most regulated" is a relative thing. It still might not be regulated enough for the desired outcome.

Also, even if it is the most regulated market, by whatever measure you wish to make, that doesn't mean that people do not carry guns across state borders. Wisconsin and Indiana are quite close to Chicago, not to mention that a dozen other states are within an easy day drive of Chicago. Heavy regulations in one state have little impact when guns can be traded privately in other states with lax requirements.

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John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Yeah, once a gun is used in a mass shooting, any relevant gun control laws in that area are pointless, since the gun could easily be brought in from outside of that jurisdiction. Something needs to be done at the federal level, so that there is something universal across all jurisdictions.

Yeah, once a gun is used in a mass shooting, any relevant gun control laws in that area are pointless, since the gun could easily be brought in from outside of that jurisdiction. Something needs to be done at the federal level, so that there is something universal across all jurisdictions.

But how would we stop guns coming in from outside our jurisdictions? As PP alluded to, we cant even stop drugs from coming in, even after billions of dollars spent and multiple federal agencies aimed[1]primarily at enforcing the law.

When I give this problem serious thought, I keep concluding that we are too large a society to solve any of our truly vexing problems. The best we can hope to do is create yet another stop-gap measure that some tiny percentage of the population insists will solve the problem. And as ineffective as whatever solution that may be, it will be watered down so thoroughly by legislation that is probably makes things easier for those that cause the problem.

We are too big. Too many people, too few ideas, too many vested interests, too little concern for those who are not exactly like us. We can at times agree what to call our problems, but never about what to do about them.

The vested interest business is booming these days. It is all lawyered up and far more concerned about proving a point than accomplishing sh*t. I mentioned in an earlier post the 8,000 gun shops within easy driving distance of the Mexican border. The shops that sell a huge percentage of the guns that make it south across the border and kill so many. The NRA thinks that any additional monitoring of those shops or any additional monitoring of gun buyers in those shops, is harrassment of the highest order. They are blind to the fact that an inordinate number of gun sellers are camped there for the reason of quick profit from legal, but often nefarious, gun purchases. The NRA’s goal, guns in every pocket and members in every household, is of far more importance to them than actually solving any gun-related problem. This theme, of selfishness, self-centered righteousness, refusals to compromise, buying political power, damning all opponents and generally redefining and refining what a horses ass is, dooms everyone outside of that circle to suffer whatever it is that they define as wonderful.

Besides guns, this applies to the pharmacutical industry, the pesticide industry, the power industry, the oil industry, the agricultural industry, the auto industry, and just about every other endeavor that employees more than five people or one lawyer. Every one of these vested interests knows that they have opponents and they are often times more geared up to fight off their enemies than they are to accomplish their prime mission. The NRA, so concerned about the second amendment that they want it added to the ten commandments, complains when someone uses rights under the first amendment to speak out against that organization. The auto industry fought reduced emissions, safety features, and other governmental requirements even as lives were being saved. Pharmacutical companies insist that their high prices are caused by all the research and all the trials required by government, but the minute one of their medicines can’t make a couple of billion dollars a year for them, they stop making them, despite the fact that there are people who need those drugs to survive.

So, in short, the powerful ones, who flex their muscles and bluster around (usually in the form of press releases), know all too well that excuses are far more useful than reasons, profits are more useful than kindness, insisting is more useful than caring and that the only bad markets are fair markets.

And of course, this is exactly how they want me to feel. You know, helpless. Because it makes their job that much easier if I keep myself down so that they don’t have to.

We vote for people, then the powerful use them against us. Nothing gets done. People, including children die, and the only thing we normal folks can do is chant the words “Woe is us” over and over.

Have any of you or your family members been threatened with violence? Have any of you been shot at or attacked with intent to kill you? Have any of you feared consequences of crossing a violent gang?

If so, what did you do? Were you satisfied with the ability of the police to protect you?

When I was in high school, I was bullied pretty heavily. The violence was quite severe, and even went so far as, for example, other students holding me underwater in the swimming pool in PE class, bringing me very close to drowning on more than one occasion. More often than not, faculty and/or staff were standing right there watching it and did not lift one finger to help me.

I also faced violence at home. My father routine picked me up bodily off the floor and threw me across the room, slamming me into walls, screaming profanity at me. My mother, sitting right there watching the whole thing, could have sold tickets. When this violence was reported to family counselors -- people who are required by law to contact the authorities when they hear of such things -- they, too, were utterly indifferent, doing absolutely nothing about the situation.

In light of that (and many other things I could relate, but I should think that those two items are enough), anyone who attempts to convince me that I do not need a gun to protect myself is going to have a very hard time of it. I know, from past experience, that when I get attacked, I cannot rely on anyone else for help -- I will have to handle the situation myself.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Parking I regretfully concluded some time ago that humanity (as a species) is incapable of developing a species wide rationality.

Python's immortal line "We are all individuals" condemns us. The Cassandra tragedy although told as a "curse" of one person (Cassandra who could see the future, but who's warnings were never credited ) is in fact mis-told. As "all individuals" everybody feels like a Cassandra. Every single person believes they see the truth, and that clamour of individual insights is the psychotic ocean roar that drowns out any possibility of sustained system wide rational direction.

We (species) are mad.

I will answer further when I can, but I am rushing out ................pursuing my individual needs.I just thought I'd briefly sadly say I have to agree with your first two paras (not enough time to read the rest yet)

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

The violence was quite severe, and even went so far as, for example, other students holding me underwater in the swimming pool in PE class, bringing me very close to drowning on more than one occasion. More often than not, faculty and/or staff were standing right there watching it and did not lift one finger to help me.

Wow, it's like you were in the same swim class I was. I had a crazy guy there who for some reason just didn't like me. His favorite thing to do was to sucker punch me every chance he got. I was pretty tough then too and it was a fairly even match, but I never got the chance to finish it. The coach would see us fighting and threaten both of us despite my wanting nothing to do with him. No one would help and rat him out, because they were scared of him. He finally got thrown out of school for fighting with someone else. I hope karma has dealt with him..

I think a tax deduction for gun safes would do well. Perhaps even require that an owner owns a safe before the sale of particularly dangerous firearms. My personal experience is that everyone that owns a gun safe uses them, but many who would like them, cannot afford them.

Pianodwarf, I am very, very sorry to hear that. I begin to see where you are coming from on gun control. I had braces on both legs in elementary school and got the bullying, so I get that. But what I was extremely lucky to get was good parents that cared. I do not take it for granted because I know my childhood was more rare than it should be.

We need to outlaw sanity. That will make it an illegal substance and suddenly huge portions of our population will want some. They'll look long and hard for sources and illegally distribute it through intricate back channels. Our prisons will start filling with people who pleaded sane and then politicians will start doing it secretly even as they denounce the idea that it should ever be legal. Some will claim they were only using a wide stance in the restroom and others will say there were having an affair, not actually thinking, as was charged. It will be chaos, and some people will know how to spell it.

Forty or fifty years from now, there will be talk of legalizing it and the majority will gasp at the idea. Two or three decades later sanity will be the norm.

But we've got to start somewhere...

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

I think guns would still pour in over the Mexican border and straight to the black market.

They would need to step up their trade significantly.

According to ATF statistics (834 KB PDF), in 2009 there were 5,555,818 firearms manufactured in the US. Of those, 194,744 were exported. Another 3,607,107 firearms were imported, giving a balance of 8,968,180 firearms going into the domestic market. In 2011, there were 3,252,404 handguns, rifles and shotguns imported into the US. Only 4,284 (all of them shotguns) were imported from Mexico.

So, at the moment, Mexico supplies only 0.13% of US firearms imports and an insignificant 0.048% of domestic firearms consumption. Of course, that’s only the legal trade. If Mexico were going to satisfy the US demand for guns, they would need to import significantly more than the $47 million (329 KB PDF) they import now—most from the US, by the way. The US currently imports $1.75 billion of firearms annually, mainly from Brazil and Europe. Though, I guess the 5,441 US gun manufacturers, lacking a domestic market, would be only too happy to sell guns to Mexico so that they could be smuggled back into the United States.

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A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. – David Hume 1711–1776

The article also notes that about 1/8th of the Mexican army desserts each year, many of them joining the cartels who pay better and have hotter uniforms or something.

The recovered guns are presumably only a small percentage of what is actually down there, gun wise , given the level of violence that continues in that country.

We can't know the numbers precisely, and if the gun shops close to the border were closed down, that would not stop the cartels, who presumably have contacts throughout the US and can still get them, even if they are purchased in Minnesota. But hey, if it makes it a little bit harder, I'm all for it.

The whole thing sucks, and those of us who are dependent on the internet for our information are presumably being left out of the loop when it comes to what is actually happening. But I would rather guess than get into the middle of the whole thing and have a better picture.

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

Your wrong... Its the opposite... We are know arguing over things and shouting over what people used to kill eachother over... Even in this country... We are in the most exciting time in human history, Technology is advancing faster than any of us can possibly understand and are starting to, for the first time in human history, learn to adapt to change instead of a specific change... We are now learning to embrace the Chaos instead of just cap it off...

There is now a group called distributive defense that is designing weapons that in ten years could be made in home 3d printers... Rendering all gun regulations almost completely useless...And in this era of unrestricted freedom we finally get to do what has been needed for a long time, Deal with the issue of violence and weapons as a society... Not just make more regulation or pass another bill to "fix" it. No we get to look at ourselves and ask how can we deal with this without surrendering our rights to the state.. How can we be grownups about shit instead of wining to the politicians to fix everything...

Welcome to the chaos... You can sit in the corner and wish it away or you can stand up and embrace it, either way the greatest era of us as a people is starting, that is with or without you... That goes for all of you who are complaining about our society...

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"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin

My mom and step dad are both 'claimed to be' very religous and christian. They are great however, knowing I don't agree with their hard stance on god and/or an afterlife; I do not on both counts and they know this (they don't agree of course).

But it actually disgusts me that both these loving people in my life are now posting all these FB posts about everyone should be armed.... teachers should be armed..... guns, god, and it's all good etc....

I'm sickend by it; especially seeing all the recent news and of course knowing history and where this is all headed to. They want a 'theocracy' (god runs all man and country) and we can look to where that leads..... Why don't they get that!? We know where it leads just look at other coutries where this applies you idiots!!!!!

Anyways, I guess I'm just venting. They say history repeats itself over and over and over.... But I thougth we we all as a group were supposed to smarter than this. But who am I kidding. I know and realize the bigger group in charge thinks/knows that they are right so now us other who 'know' they are wrong have to just sit back and cringe..... and watch the dismal outcome of all the people who 'know' what they think is right...

As an atheist.... "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do...."

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Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

This post on gun control, making rounds on the internet, is from a facebook account, and is so well written that I wanted to post it:

Quote

So, here’s my two cents (which will end up being closer to $1.50 I’m sure) and I’m sure I will regret posting this later, due to the “friends” I will lose while exercising my First Amendment, but here goes.

Instead of posting a meme with a picture and a falsely attributed quote or a made up statistic, I’ve spent my time researching the gun violence/gun control debate. And I’d like to talk about some of the pervasive themes I’ve seen lately.

Secondly, the presidents, and I mean ALL of them, and their families, receive death threats on a daily basis. President Obama did not enact the regulations that REQUIRE Secret Service protection for him and his family. If you believe your children are as much of a target as the president’s children, then you have a self inflated idea of your position in this world. http://www.secretservice.gov/protection.shtml

Thirdly, there is NO law or bill being considered that would allow anyone to come marching into your home to take your legally obtained and legally owned firearms. There are possible laws that are being explored that would require more responsibility on the part of the gun owner or person purchasing a gun (i.e. pass a background check even if buying a gun from a gun show dealer). If you buy a car from a dealer it must be registered (a record of the transfer is documented). If you buy a car from a private citizen, it must be registered. If you buy a gun from a dealer, there is a record of that sale and it is registered. So how is it illogical to require the same for private sales of firearms?

Fourth, there are not more people being killed with baseball bats than guns. If you disagree with that because you saw a picture stating otherwise on the internet, then I would like to offer you the chance to buy some oceanfront property in Arizona and I’ll throw in the Brooklyn Bridge for free. There is no magical solution for solving the problem of gun violence. THAT is what we need to solve. http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/baseballbats.asp

We don’t ban cars that are used in DUI related deaths, but we do enact regulations regarding blood alcohol limits, prosecute people who enable a drunk driver to operate a vehicle after serving them, promote a DUI campaign raising awareness and educating drivers on the dangers of driving while intoxicated. All of which has reduced DUI related fatalities by over 40% in a decade. http://www.centurycouncil.org/drunk-driving/drunk-driving-statistics

The media is not hiding other gun related stories because they want to sensationalize the problem, they are simply unable to cover every gun death story because there would be an average of 80 of them each day. So they concentrate (unfortunately) on the massacres which I think we can all agree, happen all too often.

I find the fact that more children are killed in the US by guns than in the entire Middle East region, very disturbing.

I find it disturbing that the NRA blames the rise in violent shootings on video games and then comes out with its own shooting video game (categorized for children as young as 4 years of age) less than a month after Newtown.

I find it disturbing that other countries spend in excess of twice as much as the US on violent video games and have a small fraction of the amount of gun related deaths/injuries.

I find it disturbing that instead of looking for a solution to a problem like Newtown, there are people wasting their time and energy by trying to turn it into a conspiracy theory.

I find it disturbing that guns are the third largest killer of children ages 5-14 in the US. I find it disturbing that a child in America is 12 times more likely to be killed with a gun than the rest of the “developed” world.

I find it disturbing that there are more guns privately owned in America than the next SEVENTEEN countries combined.

I find it disturbing that all of these statistics are not discussed but fake statistics about a baseball bat death rate are plastered everywhere. I find it disturbing that some people believe that the ONLY answer to this problem is more guns.

Banning all firearms is NOT the answer, which is exactly why it’s not being proposed. This country has enacted laws that didn’t work before, so they’ve been revised, repealed, reformed, etc. It’s ludicrous to think that as a society, we evolve, but the laws governing us cannot? The NRA states that the assault weapons ban didn’t work the first time. Well, you know what they say, “If at first you don’t succeed, f*%k it.”.

If armed guards are the only answer to ending school shootings, then explain the VT shooting. Virginia Tech had an entire police department complete with a SWAT unit. Explain Columbine, which had an armed officer on staff. When discussing an end to gun violence in schools, there should be NOTHING left off of the table.

Ronald Reagan, a huge gun proponent and signor of the Brady Bill, wrote to Congress in 1994 asking them to propose legislation limiting or stopping altogether the manufacture of guns classified as assault weapon. And anyone saying “assault weapon” is a made up term should remember that every word in every language is, in fact, made up.

And yes, criminals don’t typically obey laws, but we still have them. Can you use that logic to say there should be none at all? No.

Let me be clear, I am NOT anti gun. I have nothing against guns or responsible gun owners. I served proudly in the military, I worked in armed security, I’ve hunted, and enjoy target shooting since I was a kid. And I’m sure most gun enthusiasts are the same way. However, this issue should be discussed logically and rationally, and all I see are comments and pictures that are anything but rational and for the most part, are just viral, inflammatory, unresearched, vitriol.

The president enacted 23 executive actions today, of which only 2 have anything to do with limiting the availability of a category of gun or a magazine capacity. The remaining 21 deal with aspects regarding background checks, school safety and mental health system requirements and deficiencies. Will it be a perfect solution? No. Will it help? We’ll see. Is it better than doing nothing? Definitely. If we keep using the statement, “It’s too soon to talk about it.” after each tragedy, pretty soon, we’ll never talk about it. OK, so maybe it ended up closer to $2.00 instead of 2 cents. So sue me.

Did anyone see that there were 3 different shootings at gun shows yesterday during "Gun Appreciation Day"? The so called experts can't even keep from shooting each other and themselves. And they want teachers to be armed in a classroom full of kids.