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00:28:05 Hum, CLISP SIGSEGV after evoking (qt-conv:main) from (ql:quickload "qt-tutorial").
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00:29:21 And (qt-tutorial-14:main) throws some errors. That's strange.
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00:31:54 But that does not occur with SBCL.
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00:35:28 Are you using a thread-enabled clisp? I think qt uses threads.
00:35:54 Uh, I don't even know that existed.
00:36:16 I'm using stock Debian's CLISP.
00:37:18 pjb: Is there a way to know?
00:37:28 didi: i think it should be in *features*
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00:37:35 madnificent: Thanks.
00:38:13 No mentioning of :THREADS or anything like that.
00:38:21 :^(
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00:40:12 So you need to recompile with with threads.
00:40:18 ^clisp
00:41:10 That's a bummer.
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00:45:35 (and potentially not use clisp)
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00:48:42 CLISP threads are scary: `--with-threads=FLAVOR support multiple threads in one CLISP image via OS threads [highly experimental - use at your own risk]'
00:50:04 Yes, free software is scary like that.
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00:52:45 lol
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00:56:29 *madnificent* doubts 'free' is a distinguishing factor for that
00:56:54 software is scary like that.
00:57:05 free is just more honest about it
00:57:13 $commercial software is usually accompanied by $marketing, which means something like: buy clisp, and you'll get hot chicks on a caribean beach!
00:58:01 No mention of STD or threads.
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00:59:11 pjb: which makes me wonder where beach hangs out these days
01:00:12 No idea. I imagine he made a faux-pas in Vietnam and he's languishing in some Vietnamese measles.
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01:03:24 xach: i don't know if this is intended or not, but i used quickproject to make a project, and it errored because the depends-on wasn't a list. but it still created the readme.txt so when i fixed the error and reran it it still wouldn't work. obviously it was an easy fix to delete the readme, but not sure if thats an intended effect.
01:03:31 Or he probably just retired, since his web page from Bordeaux disappeared.
01:03:54 _travis_: probably should sanity check before doing stuff to the filesystem.
01:04:45 i'm confused :(
01:05:34 _travis_: quickproject could be improved so it doesn't have the issue you ran into
01:05:49 oh gotcha
01:06:10 i misunderstood what you said. either way, it's a very helpful tool :)
01:06:26 (1+ _travis_)
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01:25:40 Oh well, I recompiled it but it still doesn't show up at *features* and CLISP still SIGSEGV with CommonQt's tutorial from Quicklisp. Nah, I don't want to play this game right now.
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01:37:04 didi: if it's the same for you, perhaps sbcl or ccl can make life easier on you on the short run
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01:42:18 madnificent: Actually, it is. I was using SBCL before. Just trying things out. I'm cheering for the inclusion of CCL in Debian. I guess I will get back to SBCL.
01:51:25 for what it's worth: CLISP has its place, but for most things SBCL makes things easy. CCL is quite good too, but i'm less accustomed to it.
01:52:09 madnificent: I ended up completing the program. I've had it produce output for one of the human chromosomes, we're now correlating it with our expiermental mass spec data.
01:52:19 I'll let you know soon enough if we find anything new.
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07:59:40 why was xlisp so popular?
08:01:17 it was portable and came with a lot of mathematical stuff builtin, before R etc were available
08:01:37 well, that was xlisp-stat.
08:01:54 what i don't understand, was why it wasn't cl-stat
08:02:01 autolisp is also based on xlisp.
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08:06:02 if clisp had been out earlier, I might have been cl-stat
08:06:32 there weren't many free, portable, fully featureds lisps around at that time
08:07:54 hmm.
08:08:39 I think the main reason was that XLISP was tho only lisp at that time that was capable to run on small computers, i.e. MS-DOS machines with 640kB RAM
08:10:39 makes sense.
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08:30:28 should I write lisp or Lisp ?
08:32:12 lithp
08:32:18 heh
08:32:33 matters not, really.
08:32:40 I am not sure about the capital in front
08:32:41 Lisp is a name, and as such it should be capitalised
08:32:55 who are you writing it for, ivan-kanis?
08:33:05 vms or unix?
08:33:07 as long as its not LISP, its ok by me.
08:33:10 just doing a blog on it
08:33:27 aha! On Lisp?
08:33:31 what do you have to say?
08:33:46 why it's relevant to me
08:34:07 why is lisp relevant to you?
08:34:12 hope it does not contain misinformation, we would hate to destroy it rhetorically.
08:34:29 bjorkintosh: well look at my blog
08:35:10 So, knowing all the issues about macroexpansion, etc., is there any capability in slime to add breakpoints without modifying the source?
08:35:28 ivan-kanis, where is said blog?
08:35:43 bjorkintosh: you've heard of Google?
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08:36:12 ivan-kanis: the burden to provide a link is on you.
08:36:15 given that its yours, i thought you would have proudly spammed it.
08:36:28 http://ivan.kanis.fr/blog.html
08:36:56 bjorkintosh: I am not Xah Lee
08:38:09 i see a lot about emacs. i suppose the one you spoke of if a work in progress.
08:38:16 yes
08:38:22 writig it right now
08:38:31 is it about elisp or common lisp?
08:38:40 well I like to do both
08:38:55 it's not easy
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09:25:23 "can you program in java?" "sure, but you pay the travel expenses"
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09:33:50 haha
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09:44:26 http://ivan.kanis.fr/lisp.txt
09:44:30 feedback welcome
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09:47:24 "Of course it's not as fast as C but it's decent nonetheless." -> audience stops reading here, or considering you have something interesting for them, IMO, plus, it seems like it's not true what you're saying
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09:47:35 ivan-kanis: very... spartan.
09:47:58 and I don't think FFI is about getting C speed, it's all about reusing C code and libs so that you don't have to rewrite them
09:48:21 i hear they're working on something called html that can make personal pages so much prettier :>
09:48:32 Also ecl compiles to C, so its C speed :)
09:48:44 aside from that, it's a nice summary of a few of the strength points of lisp
09:49:17 If you talk to someone who is not a lisp head, don't even mention the speed word. That's all they will remember. At least that's my experience.
09:49:46 then just tell them that in some cases lisp is faster than C
09:50:14 anvandare: I recently attempted to explain the benefits of Lisp, too:
09:50:15 https://plus.google.com/115209488640908180409/posts/h6B8xU5yT4v
09:50:24 look the perfs table at http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html ivan-kanis
09:50:25 lisp is much much faster than any language... if you incalculate development time!
09:50:41 pavelpenev: my strength is not writing...
09:51:06 actually a better approach is to say that while C makes it easy to write wrong and fast code, and takes an expert to make it correct, lisp makes it easy to write correct code, and takes a bit of experience to make it fast.
09:51:14 lisp exception handling appears to be 100 times faster than C++ one in that document
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09:51:36 Cymew: well a strong misconception is that it's slow so I think it's important to mention
09:52:11 python is slow and ruby is *really* slow but fanboys don't mention that. They speak about the strengths. I think lispers should do the same.
09:52:31 Answer the speed issue when someone explicitly asks about it
09:52:58 People always remember the bad stuff, so talk about the good bits.
09:53:01 Cymew: hmm, ok, I'll cut
09:53:18 At least that's my opinion
09:53:23 "are you building an OS or handling multiple terabytes of data? if not then speed shouldn't be your main issue"
09:53:40 ivan-kanis: check out my "lisp misconceptions" blog post: http://pavelpenev.posterous.com/learning-lisp-the-bump-free-way from my inexperienced, but insanely enthusiastic period.
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09:54:53 *pavelpenev* should probably return to blogging, now that most of the empty enthusiasm is replaced with bittersweet experience.
09:54:59 Many voices singing the praises of the good parts is why "everyone" knows about python. Also, it's quite to get going and hack away. It even has a repl, like some other languages we could mention... :)
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09:55:11 quite easy, that is.
09:55:21 Cymew: ok it's cut
09:55:41 Sorry if I harp on about this. Pet peeve. Sorry. ;)
09:55:43 you can refresh to see the update
09:56:00 Cymew: I don't feel you're harping, you're helping me make it better
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09:56:10 Cymew: I actually like the fact that the lisp community is less marketing focused. It's insanely refreshing to those of us who value intellectual honesty.
09:56:35 that said, the doom and gloom mentality is worse even worse
09:57:02 rm the first worse
09:58:56 what does it mean for a community to be marketing focused?
09:59:00 ivan-kanis: A bit of advice from another bad writer who wants to be better: write, stop, in 30 mins reread it, if it sounds like crap, scrap it and rewrite it. Takes weeks to publish anything and it still sucks, but its better.
09:59:29 people in any somewhat large community will have wildly diverging interests
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10:00:33 pavelpenev: I kind of agree, but there's moderation in all things.
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10:02:41 punee: have you read many ruby or python blogs from say 2008, or some recent node.js blogs? Or the clojure blogs, written from the clojurians who came to it from java?
10:03:04 pavelpenev: nah, it will never be good. I just got in the habit of blogging once a week.
10:03:18 not really
10:04:03 I used to really like Python but then the interest wore off
10:04:14 I think Python3 is a disaster
10:04:29 An then the Unicode handling... yuck...
10:04:33 punee: it seemed in 2008 that every second blog post about python was about closures or list comprehentions, or how you don't need to write type declarations as proof that the language was the best thing EVA!
10:05:05 I know, because I wrote half of them in bulgarian :)
10:05:11 these must have been pretty boring posts
10:05:17 but i still don't understand how that's marketing related
10:05:51 ivan-kanis: I think you could talk even more about the development environement, the dynamics of writing code (with SLIME for example)
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10:06:07 when I'm back to writing C the lack of C-M-x is really really bad
10:06:34 of course languages that are used more in the workplace are going to have more discussions about concrete/product oriented stuff, while languages for hobbyists/academics will have more theoretical discussions
10:06:35 punee: well, the comunity feels as their duty to promote tha language in every situation posible, and over exadurate its merit. I see this with lisp too, but the ratio of lisp programmers over 30 is sufficient to make it less of an issue.
10:06:46 dim: well, the thing is I don't do CL...
10:07:00 oh right, so you mean marketing the language itself
10:07:10 i don't feel like that's very true of python anymore
10:07:13 dim: it shows in my article
10:07:26 ivan-kanis: so the document should explicitely mention elisp then, I think
10:07:56 dim: well I think highly of CL, I just don't program much anymore...
10:07:58 punee: If you misunderstood me to mean that marketing people use those languages, and its my fault, I apologize, and yes, python is somewhat more mature, all the kids moved to JS.
10:08:49 I actually regard python to be the most mature of all the "kool kids" languages
10:09:03 dim: re-reading the article I don't think it should be elisp only
10:09:21 mention that's the experience you're building the article on then
10:09:25 dim: my goal is to demonstrate why I like Lisp
10:09:34 dim: ok
10:09:57 dim: like on top as an introduction?
10:10:09 I think so
10:10:58 dim: "Most of my experience whith Lisp is Emacs Lisp but this article talks
10:10:58 about Common Lisp too."
10:11:16 so, "with"?
10:11:18 :)
10:11:22 or "most of it applies also to CL"?
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10:13:32 "I am mostly experienced with Emacs Lisp but this article applies to Common Lisp."
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10:14:36 ivan-kanis: i find that just careing about good writing improves it. The attitude of "I'm not good at writing" is like a self fulfiling prophesy. I suggest you scrap the whole thing, rethink it why it is written, what you want to say and write it again. It will certainly be better. Right now it feels like a very rough first draft.
10:15:09 The thrust of the text is good, but pavelpenev's advice is good.
10:15:13 it's a good draft, tho, ideas are clear
10:15:19 indeed
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10:15:28 ivan-kanis: There isn't a function called doloop, and if there were, it wouldn't be a function.
10:15:31 try to find a story to tell in the first § it always work fine
10:15:32 yes, it is clear.
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10:15:47 moore33: hmm shall I call it a macro then?
10:16:05 *Cymew* suddenly remembers that he has forgotten to eat lunch...
10:16:06 moore33: i didn't want to make too confusing, I know it's a macro
10:16:32 calling a macro a function is more confusing.
10:16:50 dim: ah the catch line, hey?
10:16:53 ivan-kanis: You could say "a construct," but in any event figure out which looping construct you mean: do, dotimes, loop...
10:17:11 operator would be a better generic term than construct.
10:17:26 ivan-kanis: you almost have it, with the (hello) example, it's just not written as a catch story
10:17:35 pavelpenev, Cymew : ok I'll take the advice about writing and not publish it straight away
10:18:10 read any Joël on software article to see some articulated example you can get inspiration from
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10:19:12 just don't overdo it, the reason my blog hasn't been updated since last year is because I start writing, rewrite a post 3-4 times, and get bored with the subject by the end of the week and never publish.
10:19:27 moore33: ok, I rewrote it, refresh
10:19:44 dim: Joël who ?
10:19:59 joel spolsky, google :)
10:20:45 Paul Graham has a few things about writing as well.
10:20:54 ah yes I remember him now
10:21:00 ivan-kanis: Ça s'écrit "constructs".
10:21:27 moore33: merci ;)
10:21:51 ivan-kanis: My wife is a prof d'anglais :)
10:21:55 dim: great idea, let me think about it
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10:22:35 *pavelpenev* finds writing extremely rewarding, even If he rarely publishes anything.
10:22:51 and sucks at it :)
10:23:02 I find writing code rewarding, never been much into prose
10:23:05 *anvandare* does that too
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10:23:24 pages and pages of nonsensical babbling (ok, maybe a bit better than that, but deemed such afterwards) discarded, time and again
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10:23:59 thats what *scratch* was made for :)
10:24:02 I've just read http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html , but I fail to see what makes lisp unique. or at least different enough to warrant all those parentheses?
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10:24:29 the parentheses are to lisp what whitespace is to python :P
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10:24:59 anvandare: except that whitespace makes it _more_ readable. I'm just interested in why lisp is "better"
10:25:00 just read the first chapter of PCL, and preferably more
10:25:05 Doxin: http://s3.amazonaws.com/files.posterous.com/pavelpenev/qygrBgrsqzmwDklbGcpnmnkEHuIEuEGuGeiFtJzprwFJfcdkjlpnpllxCplh/media_httpimg264image_rAqCe.png?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJFZAE65UYRT34AOQ&Expires=1345804190&Signature=OF1f74BnQ8WApoT9cpg2RYWU7Ic%3D
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10:25:45 pavelpenev: well, at first. yes. but I also understand the why behind them somewhat.
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10:25:55 I don't think there's a universal standard which makes language A better than language B...
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10:26:01 Doxin: Lisp isn't better, better is never divorced from the programmers using it.
10:26:08 ...
10:26:10 Doxin: I think Steve Yegge has a good article on why the parens are better. Let me look...
10:26:11 right
10:26:31 "it just feels better" probably doesn't sound as convincing an argument. :P
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10:26:35 let me put it this way, why did you guys learn lisp? at all? from what i've seen it's not all that much special
10:26:47 anvandare: i'd like to know why it feels better to you :P
10:26:47 because i read the first chapter of PCL. thats why for me
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10:27:00 Doxin: I learned Lisp because Paul Graham and Erik Raymond told me to.
10:27:05 right
10:27:14 but thats not why i stick with it.
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10:27:23 why did you stick then?
10:27:57 lisp fits the way I think about software better than anything else I've used including python, C, scheme and clojure
10:28:08 hm
10:28:34 Hmm, I think I'm confusing it with something else.
10:28:39 pavelpenev: could that possibly be because lisp changed how you think?
10:29:06 Doxin: Certainly.
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10:29:46 We sort of grow towards each other.
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10:29:56 Doxin: Whether or not you like the parens (and I do), they enforce a regular syntax that makes the parsing of Lisp trivial. From that comes useful macros.
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10:30:31 macros still throw me for a loop :\
10:30:34 To me, Lisp is closer to the algorithm, while C is closer to the machine. And I admit I have a very machine-like approach to programming. Perhaps this is due to having learnt C first.
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10:30:58 linux admin lesson of the day: don't do "ip rule flush". Had to reconstruct default routing table by hand
10:31:13 no backups?
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10:31:39 no, its transient, but I did not want to reboot or kill apps
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10:32:06 maxm, i can appreciate that
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10:32:28 just surprised that "rcnetwork restart" does not fix it
10:32:33 anyway sorry for offtopic
10:34:05 moore33: hmm
10:34:16 moore33: I find lisp to be over-generalised really
10:34:32 moore33: it's like the difference between python and lua, but 10 times worse.
10:34:56 Doxin: I'm having trouble parsing "overgeneralized" without an example...
10:35:28 moore33: eh, it's not something concrete really
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10:35:34 that over-generalization pays off when you flying by the seat of your pants coding wise
10:35:53 moore33: it has less special cases, which is a bad thing if it happens too much
10:36:11 Doxin: special cases are good idea in your world?
10:36:13 Doxin: That is a unique viewpoint :)
10:36:15 maxm: I don't feel like it adds anything I don't have in python
10:36:18 pavelpenev: not always
10:36:25 just when they make life easier
10:36:28 it's like..
10:36:29 eh
10:36:47 write a python parser
10:36:51 heh
10:36:53 no.
10:36:57 no need
10:37:08 what if you want to parse python?
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10:37:14 i rest my point
10:37:16 a list like this: (("a",3),("b",4)) is a less specialised form of a dict like this {"a":3,"b":4}, and yet the second one is easier to use.
10:37:21 Doxin: I can think of examples: no operator precedence, for example. But I like Hewlett-Packard calculators too.
10:37:32 axion: there's no need to do that really
10:37:42 Python model of everything is a dict/hash is attractive, but has large performance penalties
10:37:44 axion: python has some very neat builtin modules to do that :P
10:37:51 maxm: not saying that
10:37:58 maxm: that's not true in python either
10:38:09 maxm: but at least you can choose between a dict and a list
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10:38:19 which afaic lisp doesn't have.
10:38:23 Doxin: lisp has hash tables
10:38:25 like eve online developers found out.. 100 objects each with 10 attributes -> one tick runs in a second.. make it 1000 objects, and it dies horribly
10:38:29 pavelpenev: how?
10:38:42 with no way to fix it, coz its dicts on top of dicts on top of dicts everywhere
10:38:44 Doxin: That list *is* a special case in Common Lisp: there is a family of functions to do lookups, reverse lookups, etc.
10:38:53 maxm: they've got a horrible implementation then
10:38:56 doxin: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm
10:38:56 Doxin: (make-hash-table)
10:39:02 moore33: right, but still a list
10:39:09 Doxin: So?
10:39:09