Who cares? First of all I didn't know this was an issue. Why should Blizzard take this out of the game just because you can't keep up with the DPS numbers on a chart? It only seems to me like you're complaining on how well tanks do which is just silly. From this thread you're just making yourself look like a DPS whore and I greatly dislike those kind of players.

“Ever wonder why ice cubes taste so boring? It’s cuz you make ‘em outta stupid water, you bimbo! Put some fruit juice in there and freeze it into ice cubes, and put THAT in your milk.”
"One small mankind and I'm gonna leap the heck outta this moon rocket." - Kneel AurmstrangFor your health.

Sorry to break it to you, but tanks are top dps on 8 out of 16 fights. And they are beating dps by mile on some. Playing wrong?

Any fight that has extra ads that require cleaving or for the tank to hold aggro on will in turn give them higher dps because their abilities more often then not have a built in cleave component or they have an ability that they would use in an aoe situation that would allow them to hold aggro on the group of mobs while being able to hold aggro on the boss.

Current play style of tanks in mop is awesome, and a hell of allot more fun then BC/LK. If they change it there will be a huge loss in the number of tanks except for tanks in raiding groups.

The Tanks have now become "An important part of the raid DPS" which shouldn't even be considered. When you do this, you skew their viability and cause for "Balance changes". It causes the problem when tanks might start to hit too hard in PvP (Early Prot Wars in Wrath as an example). Now not only will people pick a tank on their mitigation/avoidance, they will pick them on their DPS capabilities, which causes a huge imbalance between tanking classes.

Vengeance was supposed to be a mechanic that got more people to play tanks when people were complaining about 45 minute queues. If someone rolls a tank 'cause they're under the impression that they have tons of DPS, let 'em. They'll find out how it works soon enough.

Originally Posted by Goldfingaz

BC Days? Never said get rid of secondary specs. Building a second set of gear takes no time at all. My DK has 4 set of gear currently, PVE DPS and Tank and PvP DPS and Tank.

I have a finite amount of time to play. I'm maxing out my valor each week to get the best tanking gear I can. I have little interest in getting another set of gear unless it's to run with guildies that want to try their hand at tanking. Furthermore, I don't know of any DPS players that say, "Whoops! I forgot I'm doing dailies, better swap my gear! Hell, they even made it so Spirit counted as hit for healers that wanted to switch to casters. Sure, there are other stat priorities between those, but not much. Without reforging, the best healer in my guild can crank out 60k in a heroic by going to Shadow. We've always been the ones to have multiple sets of gear, Stamina, Avoidance, DPS, resist, etc. They stopped with a lot of it (and thank god, my bags couldn't take it any more), but why go back to forcing it on people, because DPS's pride is injured for a few fights in one raid tier?

Originally Posted by Stormcall

A pack of 15 lvl 90 mobs(real mobs, not low health adds) gives my DK around 10-15k AP from Vengeance. In the daily quest areas, you're not likely to pull more than that(I think 18 or 19 is the highest I've managed to get on me at once) without losing some of them due to them resetting. And with a pack like that, with vengeance stacked that high, I can pull Death Strikes crits of over 100k. With no vengeance, if I decide to quest in frost, my Obliterates crit for 175k or more. So yeah, like the other dude said, you really need to be fighting a raid boss or a pack of heroic mobs for vengeance to really be stacking to anything worthwhile.

Exactly, it's very situational. Playing as a warrior, I never see numbers that high while questing. I can pull off a Shield Slam crit for over 100k while running a heroic, but again, it's situational. It seems like people don't understand that to get the big numbers you need something that hits like a freight train beating on you. Try doing that without a healer and it's not gonna go well. On top of that, in following raid tiers, one of two things is going to happen. Tanks will continue to gear up for avoidance and mitigation, which will reduce that amount of vengeance you get. Fights with adds will skew that, but there's also fights where vengeance drops off, like when Tsulong goes to Day mode. The other thing that could happen is tanks will stack DPS gear, but while pushing out lots of damage, they destroy their survivability, making it very hard on healers and ultimately, the rest of the raid.

Originally Posted by Notamonk

Any fight that has extra ads that require cleaving or for the tank to hold aggro on will in turn give them higher dps because their abilities more often then not have a built in cleave component or they have an ability that they would use in an aoe situation that would allow them to hold aggro on the group of mobs while being able to hold aggro on the boss.

Current play style of tanks in mop is awesome, and a hell of allot more fun then BC/LK. If they change it there will be a huge loss in the number of tanks except for tanks in raiding groups.

Yep, and then back to the forums to say, "OMG, we asked you to nerf tanks, which made it more boring, now no one wants to play tanks!! Fix it!!!!"

Any fight that has extra ads that require cleaving or for the tank to hold aggro on will in turn give them higher dps because their abilities more often then not have a built in cleave component or they have an ability that they would use in an aoe situation that would allow them to hold aggro on the group of mobs while being able to hold aggro on the boss.

Current play style of tanks in mop is awesome, and a hell of allot more fun then BC/LK. If they change it there will be a huge loss in the number of tanks except for tanks in raiding groups.

I love when people put their opinion as either fact or generally agreed upon.

Vengeance was supposed to be a mechanic that got more people to play tanks when people were complaining about 45 minute queues. If someone rolls a tank 'cause they're under the impression that they have tons of DPS, let 'em. They'll find out how it works soon enough.

No it wasn't. It was to prevent the constant aggro issues tanks experienced at the end of Wrath and in raid settings where it was mathematically impossible to hold threat against some DPS. The Call-To-Arms feature was to get more tanks/healers into the queues to lower queue times, and that was mainly because Cata's initial difficulty was high enough that a lot of players started running friends/guild-only groups instead of queuing.

No it wasn't. It was to prevent the constant aggro issues tanks experienced at the end of Wrath and in raid settings where it was mathematically impossible to hold threat against some DPS. The Call-To-Arms feature was to get more tanks/healers into the queues to lower queue times, and that was mainly because Cata's initial difficulty was high enough that a lot of players started running friends/guild-only groups instead of queuing.

No it wasn't. It was to prevent the constant aggro issues tanks experienced at the end of Wrath and in raid settings where it was mathematically impossible to hold threat against some DPS. The Call-To-Arms feature was to get more tanks/healers into the queues to lower queue times, and that was mainly because Cata's initial difficulty was high enough that a lot of players started running friends/guild-only groups instead of queuing.

I don't know about methematically impossible. I definitely remember gemming all stam and having to hit taunt more than I do now though. :P I'll never forget my first tanking of BQL I was like "crap I just hit 80, they are going to rip off me", nope, AND I got the shield. :>

Of all of the fights at least 5 of them have mechanics which cause tanks to do high damage from abilities (Feng), or lots of aoe damage (Mel'jarak/Shek'zeer). You can game two of the bosses (Stone Guards, Protectors) by tanking multiple bosses in the fight. For 11 of the fights though, DPS should be winning the meters. If they're not,they're doing something wrong. In the beginning of the xpac, tanks were doing absurd damage on every boss. It wasn't until dps got gear they were able to catch up and surpass tanks on the majority of the fights.

There was actually a hotfix a few weeks after MoP release that reduced the effectiveness of vengeance, and it did actually bring it down to decent numbers. Prior to that, it wasn't uncommon for tanks to be pumping out crazy numbers. After that, it's only on the fights you mention that it's really still the case.

Having played a tank since TBC, i can only say that i despised the old model. Sure, it might be viewed as more skill based but the truth was that gear became a real issue at the end, and slight deviations in gear between tanks and DPS meant that there could be a wipe. Realistically, i should have phrased that as "Retarded DPS pull aggro and get the boss cleaving/breathing the raid and then blame the tank", but people would take offence. Perhaps of note, tanks do like to do damage too. You know, where's the reward in standing there dealing with ridiculously low numbers, or theoretical ones that aren't even shown within the game without an addon?

When vengeance was added, it solved multiple problems. It meant DPS didn't need to wait, there was almost no chance of pulling aggro even with massive gear differences, and that tanks finally got the damage they wanted. Sure, it might be a little high in some fights, but if it's working as intended, all the DPS should still beat the tanks, with the exceptions being if said DPS has a MUCH lower gear level than the tanks.

Very recently, i moved from being a tank to being a DPS. 5 years of tanking had left me bored and so switching things up a little has interested me again. At 460 ilvl, i was pulling 35-40K on LFR fights. Not great, but somewhat average for that level of gear. Moving up to 470 ilvl, and i'm now pulling closer to 55K on fights. Again, not great, but getting better. Even in the fights that tanks beat me, i'm not concerned.

Really, OP just seems to be bitching because his precious numbers aren't at the top. For every DPS that focuses on topping the meters or pulling or dying in the fire instead of being a good raider, there's a tank calling them every name under the sun. In every single one of these cases, i'll agree with the tanks. When you're a tank, you see more than you do as a DPS. You get to see when someone is stood in a silly place, and give them the chance (and a warning) to move somewhere suitable. If they don't, then it's their fault if you take the time to spin the boss towards them so they get cleaved. Fapping to your crits rather than avoiding that massive patch of fire is why you're a bad raider and why people call you Donald. There's no pride to be had in topping meters if the boss didn't die. There's no pride to be had if you did top the meters but got hit by something you shouldn't have, even if the boss did die.

Perhaps those DPS who cry about vengeance should try tanking. I mean hey, if the numbers are all that matter, then that'd be perfect for them surely. Let's see how long it is before they go back to their DPS because the numbers and playstyle aren't as interesting as they seem to think.

Vengeance got removed from PvP, so people are ok with it. In PvE - vengeance or not - dps should always top the tanks in normal conditions. Even with lower ilvl. If they don't, they are doing something wrong.

Originally Posted by Lora

A highly insightful and intellectual post. Let's try this again.

Currently vengeance is beyond fucking overpowered for tanks and it is not any dps' fault for doing less than a tank nor should they feel bad.

Tanks are topping dps only in insane AoE fights. Other than that, I'm always above the tanks.

LFG is full of shit players of course. in 95% of the cases it's me on top, tank second, and the two worthless dps doing half the tank's damage. The rest 5% is me being (slightly^^) surpassed by a better geared dps.

Haha I think the OP is just a selfish raider suffering from a wounded epeen, heaven forbid you don't top every meter on every fight ever designed. Not saying I'm some super serious awesome raider, I have a decent amount of raid experience including some heroics, but I would applaud any tank that does some big dps for helping the raid succeed/go faster, not bitch about him beating me.

The ONLY time tanks EVER beat well geared dps is on fights with mechanics that allow him/her to do so, like Feng, Mel'jarak or whatever, Empress that have already been mentioned. Obviously a tank getting hit by 6+ mobs racking up big vengeance will pump out some big dps, especially with aoe abilities designed to do just that (warrior revenge spam due to so many parries, dk heart strike cleave and blood boil, whatever the hell paladins do nowadays, druid thrash/swipe).

Same thing in regards to healing as many tank mitigation abilites count as healing (death strike, shield barrier, monk guard/ox statue, etc.), thus with vengeance stacked high and the fact that these abilities scale with AP now, tanks can heal quite a bit. Again if I were a healer I'd say hey thanks tank for making my life easier.

The only issue with vengeance was what it allowed some people to do things they shouldn't, like the 80 pally being invincible and soloing current content, which was justly hotfixed. We will have a problem with vengeance when you somehow see a tank bursting 200k+ on a single target fight like any well geared mage/warrior whatever can do.

Vengeance and active mitigation have made a traditionally more boring role a little more attractive, which is wonderful. Each role of a raid has equal importance generally, varying between fights and mechanics.

You lost me right there. Stop worrying about what other people are doing and play the game for yourself. Being able to dps well is not a thing you should pride yourself on. How about being drug free? Holding down a job, raising children.

You can roll your face across the keyboard and dps. Roll a tank, see how thankless a job it can be. If anything, all dps in the game should be thanking tanks and healers every single time they open their pieholes.

Having played a tank since TBC, i can only say that i despised the old model. Sure, it might be viewed as more skill based but the truth was that gear became a real issue at the end, and slight deviations in gear between tanks and DPS meant that there could be a wipe. Realistically, i should have phrased that as "Retarded DPS pull aggro and get the boss cleaving/breathing the raid and then blame the tank", but people would take offence. Perhaps of note, tanks do like to do damage too. You know, where's the reward in standing there dealing with ridiculously low numbers, or theoretical ones that aren't even shown within the game without an addon?

I can't say I despised it, but it was frustrating. I was used to being a raid geared tank in instances going to blues and greens in heroics. I relearned, and never had my finger far from the taunt button in case of sudden aggro loss. Yeah, it required skill, but no, it wasn't fun.

Also, does anyone else think that by eliminating Vengeance, the number of people playing tanks will be reduced?

Tank damage was too high. That was never in question. That's why vengeance was hotfixed awhile back. That makes it all the more amusing that people arguing that that wasn't the case because they are flat out wrong. Vengeance is probably a necessary mechanic for now but it definitely can be a problem for balance. It will be interesting to see what Blizzard does going forward.

Is tank damage still too high? On some fights it is, but most of the time no. I can pretty much guarentee you that Blizzard does not want tanks to be the top DPS on fights other than possibly some type of gimmick fight which doesn't mean it's ok for tanks to be in the top DPS at all really on any fight when you look at how many DPS specs there are in this game. Anybody arguing otherwise should really think hard about that.

What I think, is that Blizzard overdid with vengeance. The Devs had stated repeatedly that they want hit/exp to feel useful to the tanks and not just stacking as much defensive stats as they could. So that was the intention behind introducing the active mitigation system. However, they now double-dip from stacking hit/exp - they can both smooth out damage intake and increase tank dps. While this alone is totally acceptable, the matter has been complicated by vengeance, which turned the reasonable increase in tank dps into something much larger than that. A tank who didn't cap his hit/exp would be doing around 50-60k dps on a single target fight, which would be roughly 25% behind a dps at a similiar gear level (for normal that is). However, it is not rare to see hit/exp-capped tanks to pull over 70-80k on the same fights without actually sacrificing too much of their survivability. The increase in dps is just disproportionate. Swap in a few pieces of dps gears (trinkets etc) and they would being pulling as much dps, if not higher, as the dps of similiar gear levels.
But tbh, while most of the tanks beat out dps on multi-target fights (do not doubt this), there really is just one outlier that keeps on beating dps on single target fights - blood dks.

While this may not be a problem for now this early after the change, it will soon be when the raids start to expect their tanks to pull out extraordinary damage to drag the raid through the contents instead of asking their dps to improve - after all, it is so much easier to ask the one under-performing tank to pull 10k more dps than asking every under-performing dps to pull 2k more.
And now the tanks will not only have to manage their cooldowns, switch tanks, position the boss, tagging adds etc... but also pull enough dps or risk getting replaced.

Consider the follow:
'I am the main tank of our raid. I played a tank because I want to proudly stand toe-to-toe with our foe, attract its attention while our party unleash hell at a safe distance. I want to control and minimize the damage I take to lessen the burden on our healer so he is free to help whoever needs it.
Wait, you are replacing me? Why? What, we don't have enough dps to beat the enrage timer? But I'm a tank? Rawrr.....'