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White Dwarf Leaks - Sept - Dark Angels Primaris

Berwald

Posted 03 September 2019 - 02:37 AM

Berwald

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I'm sure there will be a lot of outcry from the initial reaction of Primaris being Inducted into the Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Inner Circle.Because of the implications this would cause, I would tell you that there is certainly some things that we, as the Unforgiven, should be up-in-arms about!

Come brothers, join me in this quest:

1. There are now two different types of Primaris Dark Angels a. Those of the initial Ultima Founding who were fully trained by the Adeptus Mechanicus before they were placed in cryo sleep. The Unforgiven understandably does not trust these new men as their loyalty lies with the Imperium (primarily Cawl, Bobby G, and the Emperor)

b. Dark Angels who have crossed the Primaris Rubicon and have been fully restored as PrimarisGW has given us a reason to field Green-Wing Primaris from a fluff standpoint. Better yet, these rising wave of Primaris can be trusted as they were originally the same Dark Angels that were hand-picked from the beginning and have undergone all of the trials, tribulations and Caliban rituals to reach their rank!

2. Implications of Primaris becoming a part of the Ravenwing & Deathwing a. If there was ever a time for GW to come out with a line of Primaris Bikers, it would have been when the Scars Supplement book came out. Because this did not happen, how do we field our height-challenged brothers? Answer: WE CAN'T There may be some of you that suggest using mkX Omnis armour or maybe the Phobos-pattern with Grav-chutes? I do not believe this is correct as our GreenWing field Jump-Pack Squads just fine. The Ravenwing has always been about speed on Bikes & Land Speeders!!

b. Don't even get me started on inducted Deathwing members WHOSE SOLE ARMOUR OF CHOICE HAS ALWAYS BEEN TERMINATOR ARMOUR. But sure; if Primaris have to be ham-fisted into the 1st Chapter, what type of armour would qualify? Must be able to Teleport/Deep Strike in to hunt the Fallen, have an invulnerable save, and carry a signature melee weapon. In case you were scratching that head to come up with a unit from GW's current line of Space Marines, we currently do not have Primaris to foot this bill.

Bryan Blaire

Posted 03 September 2019 - 03:38 AM

Nope, not watching boring 10 min YouTube videos when I can read it in a couple of mins without any bias, but I assume Bryan's link resumes the video since author is the same.

Nah, no video from mine, just a Valrak post here on B&C with images. All in all, the info is pretty boring, and while more story is nice, it just doesn't really seem to move anything forward with any substance. It certainly doesn't answer questions at all, but there is nothing revealed to get knickers in a twist over.

Berzul

Posted 03 September 2019 - 03:40 AM

Berzul

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2. Implications of Primaris becoming a part of the Ravenwing & Deathwing
a. If there was ever a time for GW to come out with a line of Primaris Bikers, it would have been when the Scars Supplement book came out.
Because this did not happen, how do we field our height-challenged brothers? Answer: WE CAN'T
There may be some of you that suggest using mkX Omnis armour or maybe the Phobos-pattern with Grav-chutes?
I do not believe this is correct as our GreenWing field Jump-Pack Squads just fine. The Ravenwing has always been about speed on Bikes & Land Speeders!!

b. Don't even get me started on inducted Deathwing members WHOSE SOLE ARMOUR OF CHOICE HAS ALWAYS BEEN TERMINATOR ARMOUR.
But sure; if Primaris have to be ham-fisted into the 1st Chapter, what type of armour would qualify?
Must be able to Teleport/Deep Strike in to hunt the Fallen, have an invulnerable save, and carry a signature melee weapon.
In case you were scratching that head to come up with a unit from GW's current line of Space Marines, we currently do not have Primaris to foot this bill.

I am not sure what will happen.

On the one hand, I don't see GW as it currently operates, making a specific unit for a specific codex that only a few players can use.

So far their entire approach has been the opposite. Making all chapters (including us) use all the units with almost no restriction. So that the primaris units can be sold to everyone.

Feels like, for business reasons, we should NOT be hoping for Deathwing or Ravenwing specific units.

But, on the other hand, the Deathwing and the Ravenwing are just so intrinsic to the chapter, that being shifted to playing all primaris, without "terminator" and "biker" units available... It just feels wrong.

I really can't clearly see what is coming. I can't imagine the Dark Angels without iconic units that are their own; but I can't expect GW to not just go the easy way and just forget about the unique squads of the codex, and just giving us generic primaris kits for generic primaris unit... Which are now Inner Circle, because the new bit of fluff says so.

UtariOnzo

Posted 03 September 2019 - 05:36 AM

I think there’s a bit of pearl clutching going here over Termie armour and bikes.

Yes, that’s how the companies fought, but we’re not playing in a perpetually static universe anymore, we’re playing in a live, evolving one, which means the organisations within it evolve too.

Ravenwing can and has fought on foot where terrain dictated it (see the Ravenwing novel where Sammael ordered the company to climb up to a mountain outpost) so it’s not entirely unprecedented for non-biker tactics to be used. Vanguard/reiver style primaris would give the 2nd company an internal light infantry unit of their own to take and hold ground that bikes and speeders struggle with, reducing the need to expose battle company marines to stuff they’re not ready/suited for in the event of Fallen activity. The Primaris here are supplemental, light infantry able to assist the biker brothers and cover their limitations.

The Deathwing... ok, there is a point about needing deepstriking, heavily armoured units. To which we have Gravis Inceptors, jump marines on steroids. These bad bois can deploy rapidly and quickly, as one would need to do, in order to take out/take down Fallen, have solid toughness and slightly uprated armour at least in fluff, and they would give something the Deathwing currently lack, mobility after deployment. There’s also the option of other Primaris units coming down the pipe of being Deathwing specific, but from the current line the ones that make the most sense are the Inceptors in my mind.

Primaris line, even with all of its expansions so far, is still massively massively supplemental to most marine lists I’ve seen as their units are specialised and inflexible. It’s not the end of regular marines (least not yet) and I can see the 1st and 2nd taking in Primaris that can be trusted to give them capabilities internally.

In terms of the lore, yeah it can be argued some of the inductions feel ham fisted, but we’ve been set up for this with the Primaris Circle, this eventual outcome isn’t a surprise and we have a balance of different Marines coming in as already mentioned. Everyone’s free to dislike it, but in the other thread I’m getting vibes of dislike for the sake of dislike and hating change entirely for being change :shrug:

Angel of Solitude

Posted 03 September 2019 - 06:58 AM

Angel of Solitude

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So this is exciting, to the extent that GW have finally addressed the issue of Deathwing and Ravenwing Primaris. However, they can’t just tease it in the lore without giving us the rules to go with it.

For example, I’m thinking great! I can give Primaris units the RAVENWING keyword. All re-rolls when near Sammael, but even better - ignore cover save thanks to the Talonmaster! Or perhaps some DEATHWING Aggressors with a Ancient in support for silly number of attacks. Sure, a Deathwing Ancient is horribly overpriced, but you get the point.

I’ve got some Primaris that need painting, and as cool as they will look, I’m not really going to commit until we have more sight of the rules.

Interrogator Stobz

Posted 03 September 2019 - 07:02 AM

Apparently the GW plan is to have us all totally replace our armies over the next few years. This is part of the strategy.

Normalization and integration of the new stuff until it's the best then only option. The Primaris variants will be fully integrated into the Inner Circle as well as the Wings in no time.
It's almost here whether we're fans or not.

UtariOnzo

Posted 03 September 2019 - 07:04 AM

UtariOnzo

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It’s better to have it done gradually other time rather than an AoS style insta squatting at the least. I too need to see rules before I commit models, but as I’ve already stated I can see Primaris making sense when equipped to certain roles.

I would prefer for primaris to stay in their own Circle with their current model range. Upgrading company masters to primaris seems OK-ish, I guess.

Overall, nothing interesting so far. I hope that next codex would bring something new in terms of lore.

BTW R.I.P. Balthasar

Well, better Balthasar than any of the GREAT FIVE and IMO Lazarus sounds more ominous than Balthasar...

We have only seen some excerpts from the whole article (I like them so far) and I see this as an introduction to the upcoming codex (whenever it will be released). I also hope to see primarised bigger versions of terminator armour as I do not see primaris fit into the 1st company in any other suit.

Brother Tyler

Posted 03 September 2019 - 10:11 AM

Brother Tyler

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I don't know if we're going to see the lore continually progress in perpetuity, but it seems reasonable that at a minimum we'll see the lore progress while the Primaris range is expanded. Once the Primaris range covers the full scope of what they are intended to be, the lore progression might slow down or stop. Or it might not.

With regard to the Unforgiven, seeing the Primaris reach a point of acceptance where they are inducted into the higher secrets seems completely logical and desirable, allowing players that desire to have pure Primaris armies to field viable forces. Players that don't want to field Primaris will be able to field pure legacy Adeptus Astartes forces (for now). Whether or not GW plans to fully supplant the legacy Adeptus Astartes with Primaris, the current situation provides players with options. For many of us, the writing is on the wall and the legacy Adeptus Astartes will most likely disappear (except as preserved in the Warhammer Legends rules). I don't see this happening until the Primaris range reaches a certain point of viability, though.

So this is exciting, to the extent that GW have finally addressed the issue of Deathwing and Ravenwing Primaris. However, they can’t just tease it in the lore without giving us the rules to go with it.

We'll need to see models for this to be practical. While I'm looking forward to [Unforgiven] Ravenwing rules, I would hope that at a minimum, we are provided with Primaris bikers/Land speeders for all Chapters at the same time (it would seem more likely to me that we'll see the generic Primaris bikers first, with the Ravenwing following shortly thereafter, but GW might surprise is in terms of the sequencing). This would also better support the established theme of the White Scars, and their supplement release alongside the Ultramarines coupled with the Dark Angels Primaris leak in August makes it seem more likely to me that we'll see Primaris bikers sooner rather than later. With regard to the Unforgiven, though, I'm wondering if we'll see jet bikes for the Adeptus Astartes as part of Cawl's efforts.

And as far as the Deathwing goes, we'll need the generic Primaris terminators first (assuming Gravis isn't the answer).

I do feel sorry for C.Z. Dunn though - pretty much all of his Dark Angels books featured Balthasar at different points in his life.

What is there to feel sorry about? What makes you think that C.Z. Dunn isn't in on the lore progression?

Morovir

Posted 03 September 2019 - 11:05 AM

Morovir

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It just feels a bit ignominious - for a character created for a starter set, we ended up getting a lot of background for him from C.Z. Dunn, from his time in the 5th Company and his distrust of pyskers in Eye of Ezekiel, to his service in the Deathwatch in Deathwatch: the Last Guardian, to his time in the Deathwing in Pandorax and The Ascension of Balthasar and finally to Company Master in Dark Vengeance.

While all of the other captains kept changing from codex to codex and in the novels, he was the only one to stay the same.

And then he gets killed off in a White Dwarf footnote.

To give an example of the lack of continuity typical for Dark Angels Company Masters, from 939.M41 until the present we have the following individuals as 4th Company Master:

Sheol (Space Marine Legends: Azrael)

Aralech (Ragnar Blackmane)

Seraphus (Will of Iron)

Boaz (Dark Vengeance)

Sorael (Ragnar Blackmane)

Korahael (Codex: Dark Angels 7th Edition and Fall of Cadia)

Gabrael (War of Secrets)

Aside from the two both in Ragnar Blackmane, none of these acknowledge any of the others, making it seem like a lack of editorial oversight on the most part rather than a shockingly high turnover.

I suppose if any other Company Master had been killed off to make way for a Primaris character, nobody would have batted an eyelid as frankly, we know nothing about them.

Neuralshock

Posted 03 September 2019 - 11:45 AM

Keep in mind that GW has been playing the slow drip releases since 8th started. This could entirely be the primer for releasing primaris bikes and terminators.

However, GW's convention for new releases has them painted blue and gold first *eyeroll*. So it's more likely we'll see a release of a terminators equivalent and primaris bikes before an updated DA dex and a subsequent new ravenwing/deathwing upgrade kit for said units.

Primaris black/DW knights? We'll see, the fluff blurb about the chapter apocthecaries and tech marines scrutinizing the Martian tech priests makes me think they'll try to make this new tech their own

Berzul

Posted 03 September 2019 - 12:00 PM

I think there’s a bit of pearl clutching going here over Termie armour and bikes.

Yes, that’s how the companies fought, but we’re not playing in a perpetually static universe anymore, we’re playing in a live, evolving one, which means the organisations within it evolve too.

I don't know of it is about not wanting things to change, for most.

I think it is more about consistency. We are supposed to be one of the big non-traditional codexes around.

We had a limited access to many regular stuff. Now we have access to almost all.

We had special units noone else had access to. Will that still be the case?

Considering how inconsecuential it is, from a gameplay perspective, to have the Deathwing and Inner Circle abilities, what is left is the fact that we have the Knights and an overall special flavour to our units. Not so much the case with the Ravenwing, since they are THE best thing about our codex, from a gameplay perspective. But, even then, they still hace a look and feel to them, and some units, that make it unique.

Homogenization of the armies, paired with teasers of Primaris DW and Primaris RW possibly being just, the same models every chapter gets, but with a different color, makes one worry.

Worry about the army starting to lose its identity.

Same thing happens with the lore. In the end, the issue with Primaris, I feel, was never, and has never been, about the Primaris themselves. But, rather, about how they were and continue to be introduced into the lore.

If the new DW and RW, which are to replace the old models as they shift to "Legacy" starus, are just Ultramarines paintwd bone and black, well, that... Sucks.

JJD

Posted 03 September 2019 - 02:02 PM

JJD

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I am just worried that the Deathwing and Ravenwing will become battle company units painted black or white. I knew things would be changing once Primaris arrived but I hope the DW and Ravenwing will go on to be comprised of units not found elsewhere in the chapter.

Neuralshock

Posted 03 September 2019 - 02:23 PM

Neuralshock

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I am just worried that the Deathwing and Ravenwing will become battle company units painted black or white. I knew things would be changing once Primaris arrived but I hope the DW and Ravenwing will go on to be comprised of units not found elsewhere in the chapter.

I'm optimistic that primaris are going to get new units that fit the convention of deathwing and ravenwing.

Bryan Blaire

Posted 03 September 2019 - 02:27 PM

The army had identity back when there were only limited models to paint - it will still have identity even if all the "unique" units were to go away.

But even with limited models, you still had ranged combat and close combat options for Terminators, which Gravis do not have. Hopefully GW does better work on the options before we start getting Terminator replacements - it’s boring having only two weapon variants in each of the Gravis versions.