Great job indeed! It’s unbelievable what the Valley Forge TU has accomplished to make Valley Creek what it is today, and what it promises to be in the future.

Not to pick on you Jack, well I guess I will anyway. I recall you saying on numerous occasions, that for most TU members, their motives for stream conservation is primarily to improve their own fishin’ hole. That may be a side benefit for some, but there are close to 800 members of VFTU, and many of these folks have never held a fishing rod in their hand. Also enlisted by TU, are local, state, and federal governmental agencies, along with several non-fishing organizations, universities and colleges, helping with these conservation efforts. For all the right reasons I might add, to conserve and enhance our streams for future generations. And well, maybe for some of us….to catch a few fish too.

That's great! I love Valley Creek...one of my most favorite streams to fish now! Especially in the summer. Every time I went in the summer the temp. stayed between 65-66 which great around these parts. I especially love the BLACK SNAKES that you run into there!!

I wouldn't mind having the opportunity of catching brookies in Crabby.

Posted on: 2009/2/6 11:28

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Those who have no vices usually have some really annoying virtues!

afishinado wrote:Great job indeed! It’s unbelievable what the Valley Forge TU has accomplished to make Valley Creek what it is today, and what it promises to be in the future.

Not to pick on you Jack, well I guess I will anyway. I recall you saying on numerous occasions, that for most TU members, their motives for stream conservation is primarily to improve their own fishin’ hole. That may be a side benefit for some, but there are close to 800 members of VFTU, and many of these folks have never held a fishing rod in their hand. Also enlisted by TU, are local, state, and federal governmental agencies, along with several non-fishing organizations, universities and colleges, helping with these conservation efforts. For all the right reasons I might add, to conserve and enhance our streams for future generations. And well, maybe for some of us….to catch a few fish too.

Great project.

If it had been done only by fishermen, it would have been just as great a project.

A project like that does require the presence of non-fishermen to "vindicate" it.

Jack was working from an assumption that for fishermen to restore or conserve streams to improve fishing is somehow a negative or bad thing.

But neither he nor anyone else ever offered anything to support that assumption. I think that assumption is baseless. Wholly without merit!

Here's something to think about. For those of us who fish, are we proud of being fishermen? Ashamed of it? Do we think of it as an ancient, time-honored, venerable activity? Or do we think of it as something slightly shady, that we have to explain and justify.

And while you are pondering that, be sure you've got your fishing license. It's going to warm up this weekend, and it will be a good time to fish!

I doubt I ever said that "most" members of TU are in it primarily to improve their own fishin’ hole, though I do believe that many people who present themselves as caring about the streams or the trouts really only care about it to the extent it improves their fishing. In addition, I do not contend that it is a "bad thing" to improve a stream for your own selfish interests. What is "bad" if you want to call it that, is that some folks that fit this model won't admit it and intentionally disguise and deny it.

Posted on: 2009/2/6 15:56

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"Modern depictions of leprechauns are largely based on derogatory 19th-century caricatures and stereotypes of the Irish."

Jack, I’m really only funning you. Troutbert, I do think there are those out here that believe there is an ulterior motive for many conservation efforts by sportsmen, whether it be fishing or hunting. There may be some out there that participate only to enhance their sport, which is fine, but I believe that most sportsmen would pitch in whether or not it the conservation project enhances their sport or not. That was my real point; many people care about conservation, including sportsmen, and practice it to conserve and enhance natural areas for future generations and not necessarily just to enhance their catch.

I’m certainly not ashamed to be a fisherman, and yes I do support conservation projects to help the fish I pursue. I also support conservation efforts and charities that have nothing to do with my sport. I support them all because I believe it’s the right thing to do and I expect nothing in return, except the satisfaction of knowing the world may be a little better place with my help.

The intent of my original post was not to divert attention from the great job done on this project.

Sorry to have helped distract attention, but you can't expect to inaccurately proffer my position for me and not have me seek to correct it, particularly because it seems to get under people's skin even when stated accurately. Congratulations to all that helped with the effort. May your fishing be enhanced or not as you see fit.

Posted on: 2009/2/6 16:20

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"Modern depictions of leprechauns are largely based on derogatory 19th-century caricatures and stereotypes of the Irish."

Not from what you described. You sound more like someone who enjoys donating time and money to conservation causes and also such of them that benefit your own fishing-- and, to your further credit, you are willing to admit it.

Posted on: 2009/2/6 16:29

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"Modern depictions of leprechauns are largely based on derogatory 19th-century caricatures and stereotypes of the Irish."

troutbert wrote:The only reason to "admit it" would be if there was something negative about improving and sustaining fishing.

And that only makes sense if you think of fishing as a negative thing.

If you think of fishing as a good thing, then conservation and restoration to improve fishing is also a good thing.

You humans are so illogical.

I think you're stretching Jack's point.

IMO, he's saying that people refuse to admit their less-than-altruistic reasons, not that they are trying to make good on some cosmic sin they've committed.

I admit that I do any environmental work primarily to improve my experience outdoors. Secondarily, to improve that of my friends, and future children. All other positives come in bunched up at third place.

troutbert wrote:The only reason to "admit it" would be if there was something negative about improving and sustaining fishing.

And that only makes sense if you think of fishing as a negative thing.

If you think of fishing as a good thing, then conservation and restoration to improve fishing is also a good thing.

You humans are so illogical.

I think you're stretching Jack's point.

IMO, he's saying that people refuse to admit their less-than-altruistic reasons, not that they are trying to make good on some cosmic sin they've committed.

I admit that I do any environmental work primarily to improve my experience outdoors. Secondarily, to improve that of my friends, and future children. All other positives come in bunched up at third place.