I guessed the latter, given that he wanted the response in romaji and not kanji.

The first one is easy (I think), but I thought about the second one and it seemed trickier.

I thought it was better for me to just keep my mouth shut on the issue. I would like to actually discuss the second one at some point because it does seem like an interesting grammar point. For instance it sounds to me like he's thinking too much in English and trying to convert a figure of speech in English into Japanese which might not translate well... rather than simply trying to find a way to say something similar in Japanese, like a similar Japanese figure of speech.

That's partially because you didn't make any attempt to look it up yourself. You could have, for example, used WWWJDIC to give you a translation in hiragana, then used some kind of online tool to convert hiragana to romaji (I'm sure such a tool must exist somewhere). There's also freedict, which uses romaji but is much less comprehensive than EDICT (the dictionary that WWWJDIC uses). Oddly enough, I look up "beautiful" in there and none of the three words for "beautiful" that I know (suteki, kirei, and utsukushii) come up. Note that I'm not recommending any of those three words, because I'm not really aware of their nuances.

Also, "beautiful" is probably a more complicated concept than you realize. Do you want to emphasize physical beauty, or do you want to emphasize that she's beautiful as a person on the whole? How much do you want to emphasize it -- something you'd say to a random person on the street and something you'd say to someone you're in love with may well be two very different things! And it's a tricky situation to handle in English, let alone in Japanese. If you greet a stranger with "Hey there, beautiful!", it might come off as either charming or sleazy depending on how you say it, and who you say it to. How can you be sure you'd handle it with grace in Japanese? Heck, how would you know if it can be handled with grace in Japanese?

I know you want it to be something as simple as "beautiful = kirei", but things are never simple when you're dealing with foreign languages...

Ronin_Mike wrote:not very helpful, I must say....Still hoping for some answers.

The reason people aren't being helpful is because you're apparently not making the slightest effort to help yourself. People here don't like feeling like they're just being used as a dictionary for people who can't bother to make any effort of their own to answer their own question.

Admittedly the second part might be more difficult, but the fact that you seem to not have even tried to figure the first part out for yourself makes people unwilling to help you. As you've been a member for over a year now, I'd figure that you'd be able to use the forum search or even Google to find resources like Jim Breen's WWWJDIC, or http://www.alc.co.jp/, or any of other numerous sites that would at least give you the answer to the first question. And as for the second, generally if you at least give the translation a shot yourself, even as a beginner, people are MUCH more likely to offer suggestions and help you with it.

For instance if you'd have done as I just did and dug around a little and asked "does this sound correct for this statement?" or something, I'm sure people would have gladly offered suggestions and corrections.

But the community here doesn't exist just to act as a dictionary for people who don't make any effort of their own. No offense.

All that being said, it should be noted that "beautiful" is exclusively an adjective in Japanese, and it needs a noun to modify (unlike English, where you can call someone "beautiful" (in the vocative sense, as in "O beautiful [one]") you can't do that in Japanese.

phreadom wrote:For instance it sounds to me like he's thinking too much in English and trying to convert a figure of speech in English into Japanese which might not translate well... rather than simply trying to find a way to say something similar in Japanese, like a similar Japanese figure of speech.

astaroth wrote:This is so true! I think it also holds from any language to any other language, though probably European languages have more common idioms than usual from sharing some literature.

Yeah, it's surprising what idioms European languages share sometimes. For instance, you can translate "I'm going to eat it" word for word into Spanish, as long as you shift the word "it" before the verb:

Then there are lots of other things that are harder to notice. For instance, bienvenido (and the Italian form "benvenuto", etc.) means "welcome", right? But if you look closely, you'll also see that it's formed from "bien" (well) and "come" (venido). Well come = welcome. In fact, even Japanese shares this idiom with "yoku irasshaimashita", since "irassharu" is just the honorific form of "kuru".

Yes, I have been a member for one year. I plan to beginn studying Japanese in earnest when I retire two years from now. At the moment I haven't got the time or patience.

So having been a member of this forum for one year I dare ask you to translate two words / phrases for the first time. So what? I did not ask you to translate the Bible, did I?

I am well aware of the intrinsic difficulties or impossibilities of translating from one language to another, especially if the concepts differ as much as Japanese differs from English. (or German - my mother tongue).

I certainly did not ask for or expect patronising lectures from a bunch of arrogant, pompous gaijin!Obviously infinitely superior knowledge is apt to go to people's heads.A modicum of humility is advised.If you had dared to speak to a Daimyo in such a condescending tone your heads would have rolled in the sand.

I travel on to friendlier, more welcoming websites. Never to return again.

SAYONARA - with a vengeance!!

Last edited by Ronin_Mike on Wed 09.09.2009 5:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

Suaviter in modo / Fortiter in re. [Mild in his manner / Strong in his action] - "Life is a damned unfair sport!"

Nobody's asking you to. We only ask that you respect the rules and norms of the community.

So I have politely asked for a translation of two words or phrases after having been a member for one year. So what?I did not ask you to translate the Bible, did I?

No, but that's irrelevant. If you put no effort into the question, we'll put no effort into the answer. That's just the way we do things. And, if you took a minute to observe the community's norms, you would have known that. (I put a lot of effort into my response, and I see it wasn't exactly appreciated. I'd even given you an example of what you should have posted to get a better response...)

What you're doing here amounts to this:

1. Man sees cage.2. Cage has sign: "DO NOT STICK FINGER IN CAGE."3. Man sticks finger in cage.4. Animal in cage bites finger.5. Man blames animal rather than his own failure to read the sign.

Look, I know that getting your finger bit isn't pleasant. But if you don't heed the sign, you pay the consequences. All that we're asking, though, is that you learn from the experience (i.e., try not to stick your finger in the cage again).

I am well aware of the intrinsic difficulties or impossibilities of translating from one language to another

Then why did you do nothing about it? If you are well aware of such difficulties, then you know we can't give a simple answer. Not only did you not even look up the word in a freely-available online dictionary, you didn't so much as give an example sentence or two, or an example situation, anything. Again, a no-effort question gets a no-effort response.

I certainly did not ask for or expect a patronising lingustic rebuke from a bunch of pompous initiates.

I'm sorry, but when you violate a community's rules, which are 1) well known around here, 2) very common at most other language learning sites, and 3) posted in prominent places, what do you expect to happen, exactly?

If you look around here, you'll see that we're generally very nice people who give very helpful responses. You'll also see that those very helpful responses are given to people who put more effort into their questions...

I'm not saying any of this to deride you. I'm saying that we're really not a bad bunch -- you just have to play by the rules, just like everybody else, is all. Instead of storming off in a huff, you could simply try again and put a little more effort into your questions. Is it really that big a deal?

- Kef

Last edited by furrykef on Tue 09.01.2009 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.