Same song, same verse...

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Does nayone else feel like Cl=alvinist are always answering the same questions over and over again? And if an arminian in here gets to the point where he can't argue the point made, they just move to another thread and ask they same questions they had answered in the last thread? If it were me I would by a journal and write it down so that I wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel everytime.

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Originally posted by sturgman: Does nayone else feel like Cl=alvinist are always answering the same questions over and over again? And if an arminian in here gets to the point where he can't argue the point made, they just move to another thread and ask they same questions they had answered in the last thread? If it were me I would by a journal and write it down so that I wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel everytime.

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And when the Calvinist realizes that scriptures refute what they believe, they accuse the Armenians of false doctrine then run to places where they can gang up on Armenians. You see Sturgman the playing field is pretty well level between Calvinists and Armenians, neither holds an advantage in God's eyes. The scriptures tell us, all of us, believers and unbelievers alike, that Jesus came to seek and to save the lost, then tells us we are all equally lost. Not one of us is less lost than any other, and not one of us has an advantage that would make God favor us over all others.

The scriptures clearly say that whosoever believeth in Him (Jesus) shall not perish but have everlasting life. and those who believe are not condemned but those who do not believe are condemned already through their unbelief.

The difficulty on this an all other BBSs rests in the individual personalities of the players. So wipe the tears away, quit pouting and join in again in this lively debate no matter how repetitious it becomes. And no, it is not a matter of life and death, because God gives life to all who believe in His son, even on his name.

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Yelsew, do you listen to anything but the voices in your head? Is it a hobby of yours now to personally attack me? Just because you cannot deal with the scripture that is given you? Oh yeah, we can't just look at scripture that is not enough. Go to church... Oh Yeah, sorry.

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Sure sounded like pouting to me.

You accuse, with a tone of superiority, the Arminians and any others who disagree with your interpretation of scripture which is the same thing that you, a Calvinist, do. Then you post as you did here.

Give us a break, the playing field is level, neither side has an advantage over the other. After the game is over both teams celebrate equally for all believers go the same place and for the same reason..."I believe in Jesus the Son of God, the Messiah".

I don't know how old you are, but if you haven't reached your sixth decade, I am your elder, so knock off the patronizing commentary. If you have reached your sixth decade, you have my humble apology for my less than respectful remarks. I was just exercising my God given free will.

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The problem here is that I quote scripture right out of the bible, you post what you think scripture is saying. Then when you can't go anywhere else you say that I have a problem because I cannot see truth outside of scripture.

My problem with free will is that it is not in scripture. And if the standard of truth has left it out, then how can you add to it to include it?

i am not pouting, I am concerned that you actually think you know the truth ouside of the revealed word of scripture. For that my friend I will pray that God opens your eyes.

I would however appreciate if you would quit saying that I am pouting every time you loose a debate.

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Sturgman,
You are quite fond of posting that Romans 3 makes your point that man is not capable of seeking God. I have great difficulty with your position because that is not at all what Romans 3 says. Paul agrees more with me than he does with you. Paul agrees that man is capable, but that man doesn't. Which is a whole lot different than man is not capable.

Psa 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, `There is no God.' Their deeds are corrupt and vile, not one of them does right. 2 Yahweh looks down from heaven at the children of Adam. To see if a single one is wise, a single one seeks God. 3 All have turned away, all alike turned sour, not one of them does right, not a single one. 4 Are they not aware, all these evil-doers? They are devouring my people, this is the bread they eat, and they never call to Yahweh. 5 They will be gripped with fear, where there is no need for fear, for God takes the side of the upright; 6 you may mock the plans of the poor, but Yahweh is their refuge. 7 Who will bring from Zion salvation for Israel? When Yahweh brings his people home, what joy for Jacob, what happiness for Israel!

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Where in this passage does David say that man is incapable of seeking God? You'd do well to scratch this off as a proof text for your point of view.

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Originally posted by Yelsew: Sturgman,
You are quite fond of posting that Romans 3 makes your point that man is not capable of seeking God. I have great difficulty with your position because that is not at all what Romans 3 says. Paul agrees more with me than he does with you. Paul agrees that man is capable, but that man doesn't. Which is a whole lot different than man is not capable.

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I haven't yet found the part in scripture where Paul agrees that man is capable. Everything I seem to find verifies that man is incapable.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: "neither can he know them" , because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 8:7-9 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, "neither indeed can be". 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If the scripture so clearly states that "None seeketh after God", but you say that you were given a choice to seek after God. Who do you think I am going to believe? I know that we have the continuing argument of whether "all" means "all", but I would hope that we can on common ground agree that "none" means none, nada, wala, zit....

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Mark 10:21-22, "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions."

Jesus taking the little children up in his arms and blessing them. Jesus never seemed to discriminate in His ministry.

Mark 10:16, "And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them."

Can a Calvinist answer those texts without burning me at the stake? Okay, I really am kidding. But seriously, we need to start discussing these things with a Christian spirit.

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Originally posted by sturgman: Does nayone else feel like Cl=alvinist are always answering the same questions over and over again? And if an arminian in here gets to the point where he can't argue the point made, they just move to another thread and ask they same questions they had answered in the last thread? If it were me I would by a journal and write it down so that I wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel everytime.

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I would say Calvinists are guilty of doing the same thing if a new arguement is presented to you. If you all don't have a "pat answer" ready to shoot down an arguement you all use the same ploys everyone else on this post does. You use sarcasm, label and dismiss or just ignore the arguement all together. Look at my arguements on the post titled, "Calvinisms fatal flaw" and see if that's not the case. (Frogman is the only one I see making an attempt to address the issues, but he is doing it in such a way as to understand my position, no one has refuted it.)

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Originally posted by IndpndntBptst: I think both Calvinists and Arminians are ignoring biblical truths.

For example, Jesus loved this man who rejected Him.

Mark 10:21-22, "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions."

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What Biblical truth are we ignoring here? That Jesus loved him? Or that Jesus loved and blessed children? If anyone is ignoring these truths, it is not because they do not acknowledge that they are true. Like me, they probably don't see the relevance to the issues of free will.

It would be an entirely different story if the passage in Mark read, "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and hoping he would choose of his own free will to do the right thing, Jesus said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions, and although it made him sad, nevertheless, he chose of his own free will to be rich instead of be saved."

But all that extra stuff is what you or someone else might put there. Whether or not this is what makes sense to you is irrelevant, because it is added material you perceive is inferred. But it's not in the text, and there is no other supporting scripture that would make it reasonable to interpret it into the text.

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