Brooklyn, NY - In an address to a group of teenage students, noted author, lecturer and educator Rabbi Manis Friedman dismissed the notion of banning the internet and rejected the idea that the Jewish community is facing an unprecedented crisis.

Speaking on May 2nd at the United Lubavitcher Yeshiva in Crown Heights, Rabbi Friedman called the internet the nisayon of today’s generation and advised students to do what Jews have been doing for years – stay strong and withstand the test that is being placed before klal yisroel.

Rabbi Friedman explained to the bochurim that while for their grandparents, it was communism that enticed Jews to stray from their yiddishkiet, today it is the internet that presents a challenge.

“The test, the nisayon of that generation was, are you going to give in to communism or not,” said Rabbi Friedman. “In our generation, the test is can you handle a computer or you can’t? Can you handle the internet or not? That is the test. Is it any worse than communism? No, communism was much more dangerous.”

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Rabbi Friedman told the students that just as Jews over the years have survived the inquisition and communism, they will weather the challenges presented by the internet as well and laughed off the idea that klal yisroel needs a mass gathering to master the challenges posed by the internet.

“They are making this big conference, you know? This huge, huge conference, all frum people are getting together to discuss the internet,” said Rabbi Friedman with his trademark smile. “That is so bad. You are going to have 10,000 Jews who are afraid of the internet. It’s almost like giving in to the internet.

“You are much stronger than the internet,” added Rabbi Friedman. “Don’t get so intimidated.”

Rabbi Manis Friedman is a noted Torah scholar, rabbi, World-renowned author, counselor and speaker and is the dean of the Bais Chana Institute of Jewish Studies Minnesota.

6

May 20, 2012 at 10:59 AMelliot770 Says:

Awesome that is the chabad aproach expand kedusha by learning chasidus. The more you talk about the yetzer horoh and klipah the more you give it chiyus. The yeshivesha world if they dont dig chasidus let them revive learning sifrei musar and yira. The emphasis is on making gedolim musar seder in yeshivos is almost an after thought.Lets be honest is musar seder in yeshivos given the importance it deserves.I know I Learned in Mir for many years including Kolel musar was not taken seriously. IT was 15 min before mincha and 15 min before mariv.I remember When Harav Don Segal was mashgiach I was already out of Yeshiva living in Chicago I came back to visit and I spoke to him about the problem and he bemoaned the situation.which he tried to fix . Unfortunately he didnt last many years in the yeshiva.Im not knocking the Yeshiva chas vesholom I was very close to Rav Shmuel Berenbaum Z"L as he was my guest chol hamoed sucos 30 years in Chicago and a life long inspiration to me.Interestigly when I started learning chasidus I asked him his opinion . He answered me oyb semachsach lernin a blat gemoroh beser gey vita. Translated ;if it makes you learn a blat gemorah better continue.

May 20, 2012 at 11:06 AMharediandproud Says:

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May 20, 2012 at 11:07 AMbrooklynjew Says:

While r' manis's words are refreshing and inducing hope, it must be noted that lubavitch is different! The education chabad inculcates is one of true chasidus, and motivates one to rise to the challenge, chabad education puts a responsibility and a mission on everyone, from a young age...This is not to say that there aren't any problems in their comunity, for it is not final redemption yet, but when fulfilled innerly then the outer threat is much less, and as a result they are stronger jews...they take technology and turn it on its head, spreading through its medium torah and yiddishkeit...whereas us "heimisha" are constantly building fences and walls surrounding ourselves from the outside world, but that was good until ipod in your pocket 4G generation, we must become the avraham avinu's of our time and engage the world and tackle the bull by its horns, but success will only come through filling ourselves up with torah and chassidus, knowing and understanding our purpose in life...through studying tanya, likutei morah"n,reb Tzudok,sfas emes,sifrei mahral,hemshaichim of the reshab, great talmidei chachamim will be surprised to find out for the first time in their life a deeper meaning of Judaism, the right answer to children's questions etc.

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May 20, 2012 at 11:15 AMThe Voice of Sanity Says:

“
I have nothing against him, and neither do I have a filter on my internet... But he doesn't make sense, what he is saying is not right, if u can do something to help u fight it why not use it ”

#5 doesn't get it.

The Rabbi didn't suggest that you don't need a filter. It's self evident and even Goyim agree that although a filter is not perfect it's very helpful and anything which could be helpful should be embraced.

The Internet Asifa however is neither helpful not effective it they want to suggest a Ban on the Internet.

If the Agenda of the Asifa is suggest a Filter and similar ideas it's a huge waste of everyones time and a huge waste of $2 Million, to merely suggest the brilliant idea of using a filter on the Internet.

The Internet Asifa thinks it has just woken up and just "DISCOVERED AMERICA" that a Filter is very useful?????

That's why you waste the time and money, and make a MOCKERY of 40,000 people to let them know that you just woke up and just discovered America that a Filter is a great thing and very helpful (although not perfect).

12

May 20, 2012 at 11:20 AMAnonymous Says:

how about what we say evry morning.. 'val tviano lidai nsoyen!?' thats not a question if you would have the capability to run away of the comunist; if you wouldn't had a 'chiyev' to do so.. so the same with internet you have to put a filter..

13

May 20, 2012 at 11:24 AMAvi Says:

Rabbi Friedman is not saying not to have a filter that has been already established by all rabbanei chabad years ago.. What he is saying is dont feel you cannot overcome the current nissayon!

#6You are so right...

I also learned in litvishe yeshivos and have started learning chassidus tanya etc.. And have found myself inspired and stenghtened..

If you find you have a problem in inyonei kedusha.. i would advise you to learn tanya end of 7th perek a good few times and review it often it will help you tremendously to overcome the nissayonos when it is clear the severity and damage.. the test is almost non existent!

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May 20, 2012 at 11:29 AMWhat's the Agenda? Says:

“
I have nothing against him, and neither do I have a filter on my internet... But he doesn't make sense, what he is saying is not right, if u can do something to help u fight it why not use it ”

No one really knows (before going to the Asifa) what the precise Agenda of the Asifa, will be.

The Asifa organizers specifically make sure (to pull the wool over your eyes), not to tell the 40,000 people, ahead of time, what their agenda and suggestion is going to be because if anyone knew, no one would come

If their suggestion is to use a Filter, everyone can utilize this brilliant "new" idea, without wasting $2 million on an Asifa

Likewise if their idea is to have your computer in a public place and to use monitoring software, all these ideas are all well known even by all the GOYIM and all these ideas have been used throughout the past many decades, long before the Internet Asifa idea was ever born

hint hint...The True Agenda and which worries the Asifa organizers the most is censoring web sites such as this one, which is a threat in that it can expose opinions which differ with the official CONTROLLED dogma of the Asifa Organizers.

The threat of filth on the Internet is a concern of the Goyim too and has no need for Rabbi's to invent solutions.

The threat of a uncontrolled media which can expose a potential "rabbi" is something only the "Internet Asifa" is concerned with

15

May 20, 2012 at 11:50 AMhadtocomment Says:

What he left out was HOW do we win and pass the nisayon of the computer...Do we win by dramatically cutting down our time spent on the computer? Or by using a filter/block that we personally cannot get past? Or simple willpower...choosing to use it "to learn a Rambam", instead of shmutz?The computer/internet IS a "big klipah"...but it has brought a lot of frum Jews down and caused them to stumble and sin. I don't know why he seems to just dismiss the huge threat that having the internet in our homes poses! I'd love to read a well thought out response from someone...and possibly a way to email him this post directly to get the Rav's response. Thanks.

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May 20, 2012 at 11:48 AMNo Place to "run" Says:

“
how about what we say evry morning.. 'val tviano lidai nsoyen!?' thats not a question if you would have the capability to run away of the comunist; if you wouldn't had a 'chiyev' to do so.. so the same with internet you have to put a filter.. ”

Yidden had tried and were often successful to run away from communism and other external threats.

But you can't run away from your Yetzer Hara, because no matter where you run, the yetzer hara is inside your very heart and so he runs with you.

The only way to help anyone overcome their Yetzer Hara is not by running away but by strengthening yourself from within, by Learning Chassidus.

Overcoming the Yetzer Hara in our times requires much Mesiras Nefesh.

It used to be that you needed Mesiras Nefesh only if an outside Goy wanted to force someone to worship idols but today we need Mesiras Nefesh, to overcome our own Yetzer Hara, daily.

It's not a matter of opinion anymore, it's matter of fact, that experience has shown, that all those who learn Tanya and Chassidus have far greater power of Mesiras Nefesh than those who don't and it's far more powerful than any filter, but don't expect to hear that idea at the Asifa:-)

The above is the entire point of what Rabbi Manis Friedman was saying and it's in-line with what many other Rabbi's on VIN have said in their op-ed articles that we are missing the WARMTH of Chassidus

17

May 20, 2012 at 11:47 AMTannaKamma Says:

As Rabbi Friedman himself notes towards the end - he is talking to Lubavitcher bochurim and what works for them doesn't necessarily mean a solution for the other 99% of the Orthodox world.

I am therefore puzzled by his disdain for the asifah and his naivete in assuming that what he is saying is applicable to the whole Chabad community. Chabad Rabbonim have also made their own internet gatherings in the past and do not pretend that everyone is on the level of 'chazering Tanya' to avoid falling prey to temptation.

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May 20, 2012 at 11:59 AMTheRealJoe123 Says:

“
how about what we say evry morning.. 'val tviano lidai nsoyen!?' thats not a question if you would have the capability to run away of the comunist; if you wouldn't had a 'chiyev' to do so.. so the same with internet you have to put a filter.. ”

20

May 20, 2012 at 12:01 PMfilters Says:

The Rabbi didn't suggest that you don't need a filter. It's self evident and even Goyim agree that although a filter is not perfect it's very helpful and anything which could be helpful should be embraced.

The Internet Asifa however is neither helpful not effective it they want to suggest a Ban on the Internet.

If the Agenda of the Asifa is suggest a Filter and similar ideas it's a huge waste of everyones time and a huge waste of $2 Million, to merely suggest the brilliant idea of using a filter on the Internet.

The Internet Asifa thinks it has just woken up and just "DISCOVERED AMERICA" that a Filter is very useful?????

That's why you waste the time and money, and make a MOCKERY of 40,000 people to let them know that you just woke up and just discovered America that a Filter is a great thing and very helpful (although not perfect). ”

Since there is no agenda for the Asifa yet. We r all waiting with baited breath to hear the great insight the Rabbonim will share with us. But one item is clear that the filters need to be changed onece every 2 years.

22

May 20, 2012 at 12:04 PMAnonymous Says:

The majority of yidden who are shomrei torah umitzvos DO hold by Tanya, although not all have the depth of intellect to understand all of its complexity and implement its teaching in their daily lives. Even though most Satmer are not openly advocating the learning of Tanya, many big Satmer rabbonim have studied and hold by Tanya on many inyanim.

23

May 20, 2012 at 12:38 PMshredready Says:

“
Since there is no agenda for the Asifa yet. We r all waiting with baited breath to hear the great insight the Rabbonim will share with us. But one item is clear that the filters need to be changed onece every 2 years. ”

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May 20, 2012 at 12:22 PMDovidT Says:

Don't confuse Chabad with the streets of crown heights. Sure we have a lot of work to do in our local community, but you can't disregard the tremendous work of the shluchim, the thousands of balei teshuva and the richness of chabad chassidus because of a few crown heightsers who didn't "get it" yet... they will soon too iy"h.

If we were to "kick out" all who veer from the definition of a chossid (and who can truly judge) then we'd become just another secluded community, which is totally the opposite of what chabad is.

28

May 20, 2012 at 11:43 AMyidelle Says:

As a Satmar chushid I became tolerant of other peoples vues . There are different ways to deal with this issue to different people so no one is to judge what 1 ruv or leader tells to his people or a certain group how to handle this "machlah". I for 1 did get rid of the internet in my home it did help that my Rebbe told to get rid of it period,but at work I dont use a filter maybe 1 day i'll become better .Point be told not every person is made out of the same mold.So we must realy think before we knock one for what he said to a perticuler group of people Shulom Al Yisroel.

29

May 20, 2012 at 11:55 AMhuvsa Says:

“
No one really knows (before going to the Asifa) what the precise Agenda of the Asifa, will be.

The Asifa organizers specifically make sure (to pull the wool over your eyes), not to tell the 40,000 people, ahead of time, what their agenda and suggestion is going to be because if anyone knew, no one would come

If their suggestion is to use a Filter, everyone can utilize this brilliant "new" idea, without wasting $2 million on an Asifa

Likewise if their idea is to have your computer in a public place and to use monitoring software, all these ideas are all well known even by all the GOYIM and all these ideas have been used throughout the past many decades, long before the Internet Asifa idea was ever born

hint hint...The True Agenda and which worries the Asifa organizers the most is censoring web sites such as this one, which is a threat in that it can expose opinions which differ with the official CONTROLLED dogma of the Asifa Organizers.

The threat of filth on the Internet is a concern of the Goyim too and has no need for Rabbi's to invent solutions.

The threat of a uncontrolled media which can expose a potential "rabbi" is something only the "Internet Asifa" is concerned with ”

You've managed not to encounter too many facts in your journey to today's asifah. But your bitterness masks your argument, so thank G-d for that.The gathering of 40,000+ Yidden to beseech Hashem's mercy is the goal. It's to raise community standards. Most of the Gedolim will be there, and I assure you they have a bigger mission than to assur news websites. The goyim are not responsible for our kedushah, we are.

30

May 20, 2012 at 12:15 PMAnonymous Says:

Your comments alone are proof of the problems of the Internet. Loads of lies and misinfostion. Any silly fool can post what he wants. Someone like you can think he is even semintelligent because he reads nonsensical blogs.

31

May 20, 2012 at 12:20 PMAvi Says:

Rabbi moshe wolfson gives shiurim on tanya as well as the novominsker and many other non chabad rabbis even litvishe roshei yeshivos..

Btw you cannot judge chabad by the some of the people waling in ch as they r not truly part of the chabad system to go out into the world and spread yiddishkeit as well many of them are bt trying to come closer to yiddishkeit as well there are unfortunatlly so called chassidim which dont study chassidus..

32

May 20, 2012 at 12:23 PMChaim Says:

With all due respect to Rabbi Friedman, Just because you are a Rabbi, doesn't make you a challenger to all the great rabbis who have called for this asifa. It behooves anyone who disagrees, or has a better idea, to speak to the rabbis who called for the Asifa and discuss it with them. To come out publicly against the Asifa or to mock it, is just inappropriate. If you don't want to go, just don't go. The logic is also flawed in my opinon, I am sure they did whatever they could do to prevent communism from catching fire among the religious, so too we should gather together and do whatever we can do to prevent the internet from being an obstacle for the religious community. It is a shame that there is a deep seeded hatred between some chassidim and some religious Rabbis, and vise versa. It is time to repair the hatred of the past, and work on building our community as one big happy family.

33

May 20, 2012 at 12:28 PMInsider Says:

The Internet is a nisayon and that is why 60,000 are gathering to discuss it. Only a fool would would ignore it. Nevertheless, with its negative aspects that have to be overcome, the Internet does have sites like hebrewbooks.org that tremendously outweigh the downsides. Someone wrote that it's like having 100,000 holy seforim in your own home. What could be better?

34

May 20, 2012 at 12:39 PMAnon Says:

No one, single method of solving the Internet problem is 100% guaranteed. Banning the Internet is certainly the greatest stupidity of all and 100% unworkable and filters can have some success but also failures for many reasons (they are not fool-proof and can be bypassed, the cause "problems" on legitimate sites, so people disable them and don't want them etc etc.).

Filters have been around for decades yet have not been embraced my the vast majority of Internet users (not by most yidden and not by most goyim) because filters are very problematic and basically "a pain in the neck" and therefore some people will embrace the suggestions of filters and some will be frustrated and drop it, even if they ever get to first base to ever try it.

None are 100% foolproof. Each method has some limited success and some failures and that's why embracing as many as possible is the only way to give anyone the best chance of success.

May 20, 2012 at 12:41 PMchosid Says:

36

May 20, 2012 at 12:46 PMchelemer kahal Says:

the nesoyon of russia 1917 was commiunisim and rov klall suscunmbt to it the nesoyon of 17 century was maskillim and rov klall was swept away, so what is saying sit back? teach kids ?with dew raspect do nothing? .we have to do all we can as generations

37

May 20, 2012 at 12:48 PMStop the Division Says:

This is not a Chabad vs. non Chabad issue!We are all part of one nation who stood together at the foot of Har Sinai.Yes, R' Friedman happens to be a Lubavitcher Chossid and has a different opinion to other rabbis about this issue. I think what he says is refreshing and inspiring, and that it's not all doom and gloom. Now that we know that, each person should contact their personal rov or spiritual mentor and determine how they personally should address this nisayon. It's not a one glove fits all solution.

38

May 20, 2012 at 12:48 PMBerl Says:

I would hope that the opportunity of having all of Klal Yisroel in one place, would be used out for a Tefila and Bakosho from Hashem that he should send us Moshiach with the Geula Shleima immediately.

The Asifa is concerned with Kedush of Am Yisroel and is concerned with so much Tumah of the Internet.

Well, did it ever dawn on anyone that if Moshiach were to come today, then we will no longer have an Internet problem and it will be "V'Es Ruach hatumah Aaavir Min Haaretz"?

I can't imagine 40,000 in one place not recognizing that Moshiach is the only one that can solve the problem 100% because all other solutions like filters only do a very limited partial, largely ineffective, job.

39

May 20, 2012 at 12:55 PMAnonymous Says:

“
The majority of yidden who are shomrei torah umitzvos DO hold by Tanya, although not all have the depth of intellect to understand all of its complexity and implement its teaching in their daily lives. Even though most Satmer are not openly advocating the learning of Tanya, many big Satmer rabbonim have studied and hold by Tanya on many inyanim. ”

Most frum yidden are neither Chabad nor Satmar. So your point is irrelevant.

40

May 20, 2012 at 01:01 PMAvrahom Says:

Rabbi Manis Friedman is right on the money. How could religious Jews waste 2 million dollars for an asifa that will have little or no effect. No one will cancel their internet. When Eida Haradit in Jerusalem banned the internet years ago, not one person cancelled their service per the internet service.

42

May 20, 2012 at 01:12 PMInside Information: Only 2 Un tznius Billboards will be covered up at the asifa! Says:

Everyones primary concern with the Internet is Untzniusdik Photgraphs and Movies.

The Irony here is that City Feild is it's self the Asar Hatumah, not only all year but even right in the middle of todays Internet Asifa.

City Feild is known to have billboard advertisements of scantly dressed women, all over the place. These advertisements By Law, must remain because the advertisers have a signed contract that their paid advertisement must remain intact at all events.

Out of all of the countless un-tnzius'dik photos on billboards at the stadium, only 2 have been covered up and all the rest of the untznius will be, actively viewed, by a captive audience of 40,00 who will be "forced to sin" during the Asifa (they can "run away" form the asifa and have no "filter" on their eyes).

The above has been reported by Reb Nuchem Rosenberg who is an activist aposed to the Asifa.

44

May 20, 2012 at 01:19 PMelliot770 Says:

Reply to # 18 the mishna brurah quotes the rav shulchan oruch extensively how can you say the frum velt dosent hold by Tanya. I myself saw Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky Shlita learning Tanya in Philadelphia yeshiva during mussar seder> I learned there by Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky before Mir .It wasnt a sefer the bochrim learned as they learned classical musar such as mesilas yeshorim and sharei teshuva.To see Rav Elya S vei Z"l learning mussar was awe inspiring he learned with a unique nigun.All I am advocating is whatever shita you belong to their should be more emphasis on spending time learning sifrei musar and yirah. By the way if you learn michtav meliyohu by Rav Dessler youl see he quotes Tanya througou the sefer.Lets have real achdus by respecting each other instead knocking each other maybe well be zoche to Moshiach whoever it wiil be.

45

May 20, 2012 at 01:22 PMbystander Says:

Shame on Rabbi Friedman !! To me he is far from a mechanech, orhe could've made his whole speech to his talmidim how to conduct their lives, without knocking the approach of other rabbanim, older than he is. To laugh off others is wrong and to teach this to students, is a crime.. and a reWe know Lubavich has it in for Lakewood plus other agendas it's evident even through his big beard... All of you rightious "know it alls" "who seem to have answers for everything " if you knock this Asifa here, in public, is proof you are spiritually lost, and really need this asifa .. who are we to second guess the many Gedolie Yisroel that support this gathering? Of course it's easy to blame others for your ills. by knocking this Asifa, Rabbi Friedman included, either your'e in denial. or you really don't want to give up your ways,you love it you aren't even willing to try or make any sacrafice on your part and spend $10.00 , so you try to poke holes and find fault with everything, telling Rabbanim how to spend the money etc. Again, you don't want to go ? don't go.. you feel you're perfect? fine, just don't justify your guilt by knocking an issue that was sanctioned by so many daas torah.

46

May 20, 2012 at 01:35 PMesther Says:

“
The majority of yidden who are shomrei torah umitzvos DO hold by Tanya, although not all have the depth of intellect to understand all of its complexity and implement its teaching in their daily lives. Even though most Satmer are not openly advocating the learning of Tanya, many big Satmer rabbonim have studied and hold by Tanya on many inyanim. ”

you don't accomplish anything positive by basically saying some are just too dumb for tanya.it's insulting.the truth is that those of us who are familiar with chasidus have noticed that more and more it is quoted and taught in the most unlikely of places.often the source is not quoted and perhaps many don't realize the source but it's obvious that chasidus has permeated the general frum oilam.

47

May 20, 2012 at 01:37 PMAnonymous Says:

Excellent! I'm not even a Lubavitcher! My Rav said the same thing. The idea that we are not created to make our own choices but to follow the herd instead is antithetical to Yiddishkeit. Where is the confidence encouraged to follow the Yetzer Tov?

48

May 20, 2012 at 01:38 PMesther Says:

“
As a Satmar chushid I became tolerant of other peoples vues . There are different ways to deal with this issue to different people so no one is to judge what 1 ruv or leader tells to his people or a certain group how to handle this "machlah". I for 1 did get rid of the internet in my home it did help that my Rebbe told to get rid of it period,but at work I dont use a filter maybe 1 day i'll become better .Point be told not every person is made out of the same mold.So we must realy think before we knock one for what he said to a perticuler group of people Shulom Al Yisroel. ”

i know several very chasidishe lubavitchers who don't have the internet at home.

49

May 20, 2012 at 01:40 PMAnonymous Says:

As Rabbi Friedman himself notes towards the end - he is talking to Lubavitcher bochurim and what works for them doesn't necessarily mean a solution for the other 99% of the Orthodox world.

I am therefore puzzled by his disdain for the asifah and his naivete in assuming that what he is saying is applicable to the whole Chabad community. Chabad Rabbonim have also made their own internet gatherings in the past and do not pretend that everyone is on the level of 'chazering Tanya' to avoid falling prey to temptation. ”

Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky isn't endorsing either. Is that enough info for you? The fact that many "prominent Rabbonim" are going, isn't pointing out which of the more prominent Rabbonim are not! The Mirrer Yeshiva and their Rebbes aren't going either.

50

May 20, 2012 at 01:48 PMAnonymous Says:

Weighing the internet and holding its bad content responsible for a asifa against all content is like throwing out the Titantic before its maiden voyage because you heard it could sink from an iceberg. Or maybe any other ship for that matter.

52

May 20, 2012 at 01:48 PMListen to this Says:

B&h is sponsoring the asifa ,'having said that , they also own the filter company , so the 2 million dollar event is a huge way to market there own filter company which they invested millions of dollars in .

Thats why I don't support this asifa because it's just a marketing tool for b&h .

53

May 20, 2012 at 02:03 PMTheRealJoe123 Says:

“
the nesoyon of russia 1917 was commiunisim and rov klall suscunmbt to it the nesoyon of 17 century was maskillim and rov klall was swept away, so what is saying sit back? teach kids ?with dew raspect do nothing? .we have to do all we can as generations ”

But the ones who didn't came out stronger and the majority of family's in Chabad come from such family's.

54

May 20, 2012 at 02:03 PMhmmmm Says:

Inside Information: Only 2 Un tznius Billboards will be covered up at the asifa! Says:

“
Everyones primary concern with the Internet is Untzniusdik Photgraphs and Movies.

The Irony here is that City Feild is it's self the Asar Hatumah, not only all year but even right in the middle of todays Internet Asifa.

City Feild is known to have billboard advertisements of scantly dressed women, all over the place. These advertisements By Law, must remain because the advertisers have a signed contract that their paid advertisement must remain intact at all events.

Out of all of the countless un-tnzius'dik photos on billboards at the stadium, only 2 have been covered up and all the rest of the untznius will be, actively viewed, by a captive audience of 40,00 who will be "forced to sin" during the Asifa (they can "run away" form the asifa and have no "filter" on their eyes).

The above has been reported by Reb Nuchem Rosenberg who is an activist aposed to the Asifa. ”

I strongly oppose N Rosenberg. But, if this is found to be true I will join his ranks!

57

May 20, 2012 at 02:39 PMunclesam Says:

58

May 20, 2012 at 02:48 PMStickpick Says:

Rabbi Friedman like many say is right. And yes he is. Like everything else in life a yid lives with bechira. He can choose right or wrong and will get judged accordingly. For mitzvos with sechar and aveiros he will be punished. Hashem is giving us bechira so we don't later on complain that we were forced t o do so and so.interne's the same. We have to know to control our taivos. Hashem knows everything. I have unfiltered net and B"h I have no taivo for bad stuff on it. It's every individuals own bechira.

62

May 20, 2012 at 03:20 PMYonahLevi Says:

“
Don't confuse Chabad with the streets of crown heights. Sure we have a lot of work to do in our local community, but you can't disregard the tremendous work of the shluchim, the thousands of balei teshuva and the richness of chabad chassidus because of a few crown heightsers who didn't "get it" yet... they will soon too iy"h.

If we were to "kick out" all who veer from the definition of a chossid (and who can truly judge) then we'd become just another secluded community, which is totally the opposite of what chabad is.

Chassidus is for every yid, not just chabad. ”

A "few" Crown Heightsers? Surely you must not have visited recently...quite a bit more than just a "few" and they're growing stronger, not weaker. Most people who become Ba'alei Tshuva through Chabad find themselves in other derechs not too long after. Yes the shluchim do great work, but who's going to be in charge 15-20 years from now?

63

May 20, 2012 at 03:24 PMYonahLevi Says:

“
Rabbi Manis Friedman is right on the money. How could religious Jews waste 2 million dollars for an asifa that will have little or no effect. No one will cancel their internet. When Eida Haradit in Jerusalem banned the internet years ago, not one person cancelled their service per the internet service. ”

Who are you to say that this will have "little or no effect" BEFORE IT'S EVEN HAPPENED??!?! You naysayers make me sick...just stay home! The rest of us will be enjoyign the unparalleled achdus! Mi K'AMCHA!

65

May 20, 2012 at 04:11 PMBabishka Says:

When my kids were growing up, we did not have a TV in the house, but we always had computers. We have had Internet ever since we installed a modem, my kids learned how to program their own web pages on "Geocities."

The Internet is a tool, just like the telephone, just like cars and electricity. 100 years ago did you hear anyone screaming to "BAN THE TELEPHONE!" because it makes it easier to say lashon hara? Did anyone ever say NEVER GO TO THE SUPERMARKET because you can buy non-kosher food there?

"The Internet" does not force everyone to view porno. There was porno long before there was Internet. Recently they discovered a cave in France where cavemen drew porno pictures thousands of years ago.

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May 20, 2012 at 04:40 PMelliot770 Says:

“
Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky isn't endorsing either. Is that enough info for you? The fact that many "prominent Rabbonim" are going, isn't pointing out which of the more prominent Rabbonim are not! The Mirrer Yeshiva and their Rebbes aren't going either. ”

Thats what I thought I couldnt believe Mirer yeshiva would be mevatel seder for this asifa. Rav Shmuel Berenbaum z"l wouldnt go to chasunas until seder was over. Once during shiduchim I left early the Rosh yeshiva asked where was I . I told him I had a date. He said to me a girl has to know Torah is the main thing in life and has to understand a bochur isnt mevatel seder.He would come back around 12 am chol hamoed after raising money in Chicago. The next morning he would be at the gemora leaening 5 am.To the rosh Yeshiva you could be Satmar Lubavitch Bobov all that mattered was your head in learning.After his heart atack he wanted to give his daily shiur as usual .Out of concern to the rosh yeshiva the bochrim made up to come a half hour late to ease the scheduele . The Rosh Yeshiva wouldnt agree.You could give him a million dollars the real nachas to him if his former talmidim would say over a chidush.I saw the kovod he gave to Rav Aron SolovechikZ"L. He would go to his house to talk in learning . He would say to me tzu Rav Chayims ainikel darf min geyen. He didnt agree with all his shitos. Rav Shmuel Berenbaum ZT"L was a true OHEIV "KLAL YISROEL" EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!

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May 20, 2012 at 04:49 PMNACHMAN Says:

As a Lubavitcher I say that the Asifa would be wonderfull if in addition to the warnings of our nisoyan of the internet words of Ahavas Yisroel Vaichan Isroel kneged Hahar Kish echod blev Echod which can be argued is more important if not as important in todays age. Another point should be talked about is the Geula from our Golus as many sages prdicted we are in Ikvesa demeshicha and Hinai hinai Moshiach Bo with all the signs of the past few years we see this unfolding. Both Ahavas Isroel and Geulo from this bitter Golus is relevant to every Jew men women and children. I wish the Asifa Hatzlocho Rabba.

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May 20, 2012 at 05:13 PMAnonymous Says:

The Rabbi didn't suggest that you don't need a filter. It's self evident and even Goyim agree that although a filter is not perfect it's very helpful and anything which could be helpful should be embraced.

The Internet Asifa however is neither helpful not effective it they want to suggest a Ban on the Internet.

If the Agenda of the Asifa is suggest a Filter and similar ideas it's a huge waste of everyones time and a huge waste of $2 Million, to merely suggest the brilliant idea of using a filter on the Internet.

The Internet Asifa thinks it has just woken up and just "DISCOVERED AMERICA" that a Filter is very useful?????

That's why you waste the time and money, and make a MOCKERY of 40,000 people to let them know that you just woke up and just discovered America that a Filter is a great thing and very helpful (although not perfect). ”

Where have you been? They are not banning Internet. The main purpose of the Asifa will be the Tfillos and T'hillim which will be said in order to beseech Hashem to help us remain an Am Kadosh and not fall in to the depravity. You have a problem with that?

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May 20, 2012 at 05:16 PMAnonymous Says:

“
No one really knows (before going to the Asifa) what the precise Agenda of the Asifa, will be.

The Asifa organizers specifically make sure (to pull the wool over your eyes), not to tell the 40,000 people, ahead of time, what their agenda and suggestion is going to be because if anyone knew, no one would come

If their suggestion is to use a Filter, everyone can utilize this brilliant "new" idea, without wasting $2 million on an Asifa

Likewise if their idea is to have your computer in a public place and to use monitoring software, all these ideas are all well known even by all the GOYIM and all these ideas have been used throughout the past many decades, long before the Internet Asifa idea was ever born

hint hint...The True Agenda and which worries the Asifa organizers the most is censoring web sites such as this one, which is a threat in that it can expose opinions which differ with the official CONTROLLED dogma of the Asifa Organizers.

The threat of filth on the Internet is a concern of the Goyim too and has no need for Rabbi's to invent solutions.

The threat of a uncontrolled media which can expose a potential "rabbi" is something only the "Internet Asifa" is concerned with ”

What 's YOUR agenda? You claim no one knows in advance what will be on the agenda ahead of time, then you go on to TELL us what their "real" agenda is! Oh if I only had a nickel for each pathetically ignorant statement made on this blog!

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May 20, 2012 at 05:19 PMTo hadToComment Says:

“
What he left out was HOW do we win and pass the nisayon of the computer...Do we win by dramatically cutting down our time spent on the computer? Or by using a filter/block that we personally cannot get past? Or simple willpower...choosing to use it "to learn a Rambam", instead of shmutz?The computer/internet IS a "big klipah"...but it has brought a lot of frum Jews down and caused them to stumble and sin. I don't know why he seems to just dismiss the huge threat that having the internet in our homes poses! I'd love to read a well thought out response from someone...and possibly a way to email him this post directly to get the Rav's response. Thanks. ”

You are totally right and took the words out of my mouth! He is is simplistic in his advice to just "overcome" the test. What about the many who have already failed the test and do so over and over every day? What about the many who WILL r"l fall and fail the test? Is it rally so simple as he makes it sound? If it was, our marriages and our children wouldn't be in the situations they're in now because of this terrible Nisayon

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May 20, 2012 at 05:22 PMjonkamm623 Says:

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May 20, 2012 at 05:34 PMhershel Says:

Great to hear R Friedman today and everyday.It is a challenge, and we need to work on the challenge.As we all are, and as we will continue. Everyone as they know best.R Friedman as personally thought tens of thousands of students, and influenced hundreds of thousands.With uncountable amounts of Balli Tishuva.Not your cup of tea? Drink something else:)

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May 20, 2012 at 06:14 PMAnonymous Says:

A wise man swerves instead of hitting the potholes ahead. The forces of modernity are such that tomorrow there will always be a hole in the road, but we can swerve and avoid this problem. This does not mean not taking the road ahead.

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May 20, 2012 at 06:47 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky isn't endorsing either. Is that enough info for you? The fact that many "prominent Rabbonim" are going, isn't pointing out which of the more prominent Rabbonim are not! The Mirrer Yeshiva and their Rebbes aren't going either. ”

actually rav shmuel is endorsing but he said yeshiva bochrim shouldnt close their gemarahs to attend this

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May 20, 2012 at 06:59 PMBarry-with-Brains Says:

Let's face it. Chassidus has a completely different outlook on life. The Baal Shem Tov gave the world a gift. Just because you are too scared or too set in your ways to accept it, it doesn't mean that it's not true.Chassidus is the true way to understand all of torah. It's just a fact. Dont become a Chassid if you dont want to, but try learning some chassidus. It might just brighten up your life.And yesI agree with Rabbi Friedman.

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May 20, 2012 at 08:18 PMmekubal Says:

Rabbi Friedman and chabad are right. There is no need for an asifa...or filters.If one suspects their yingeleh looking at bad things ...check the Mezuzos.Probably there is something wrong in the pusuk...lo sosiru achrei eiyneichem

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May 20, 2012 at 08:38 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Where have you been? They are not banning Internet. The main purpose of the Asifa will be the Tfillos and T'hillim which will be said in order to beseech Hashem to help us remain an Am Kadosh and not fall in to the depravity. You have a problem with that? ”

No one is falling into "depravity" from using the internet. The pervets who satisfy their lusts by watching the internet will simply go back to buying magazines and porn CDs. Perhaps if those screaming at this Asifa would focus 1% of their energy and resources to providing professional help to these perverts, the klal would be a lot better off.

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May 20, 2012 at 09:25 PMAnonymous Says:

“
No one is falling into "depravity" from using the internet. The pervets who satisfy their lusts by watching the internet will simply go back to buying magazines and porn CDs. Perhaps if those screaming at this Asifa would focus 1% of their energy and resources to providing professional help to these perverts, the klal would be a lot better off. ”

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May 21, 2012 at 01:22 AMelliot770 Says:

Isnt it interesting Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky Shlita as quoted above says yeshiva bochrim should not be mevatel Torah to go. Why then did the whole Lakewood Yeshiva pick up and go. Isnt Rav Shmuel the elder rosh yeshiva who is on the Moetzes Gedolie Hatorah..Im proud of MIr who held firm to Rav Shmuel Berenbaums hadrocha not to be mevatel seder for anything as I posted above. I understand Balei Batim but to close down yeshivos the week before Shvuos its astounding.How about all the pritzus people had to put up with in the sumer travelling by mass transit .Did anyone consider the pritzus on a sunday on nyc trains.How many people are going to miss tfilah bizman because the asifa ended after 11pm .till they got home it must have been very very late. All the bochrim that went probably didnt get back to Lakewood till the early hours of the morning. How can they learn with a clear head.Thats 2 days of bitul Torah.I was always under the impression in the merit of the Torah learned in the yeshivasKlal Yisroel has Hashems rachmonis.A great Godol says bochrim shouldnt be mevatel Torah and hes ignored . ASTOUNDING WE NEED AN ASIFA FOR KOVOD HATORA hopefuly bein hazmanim.

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May 21, 2012 at 01:26 AMRabbi Manis Friedman fan Says:

Rabbi Manis Friedman is an AMAZING person! I have been to many of his classes at Bais Chana Women's Institute in Minnesota, and he is awesome! He has brought maybe thousands Jews back to Judaism in his decades of teaching. How many Jews can say they did the same? I am not with Chabad by the way. I just enjoyed going in the past to his Bais Chana Women's Institute on my vacations where I met women from all over the world - most who were not with Chabad and most not frum. Great food, great people - had lots of fun too.

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May 21, 2012 at 03:11 AMshmiell Says:

R Friedman's idea of "just say no" to a nisayon (like Nancy Reagan) worked fine for the dor of communism; then we had strong yiddishe kehillos in Europe led by big Tzaddikim, and you just have to keep your gates locked to keep the chazirim out; "ki chizak berichai sh'orayich beirach bonayich bikirbeich". But today, the chazir is already in the house, and sometimes even in the pocket already! For yesterdays nisyonos yesterdays mahalach worked; for todays new high-tech nisyonos with all its tricks we need new tricks to overcome it. "Just say no" and rely on straight will-power, while still necessary even with a filter, is not enough anymore.Anyhow, in one thing he's right; the Chabad Tzibbur really needs to work on a different nisoyon i.e. realizing that their Rebbe ZT"L is actually dead; I think that's the root cause of their OTDs since the Crown Heights community is running like a ship without a rudder as they create a new religion of "Yechi" and all that. When something other than straight Torah (a strong foundation of Gemora and Poskim i.e. Nigla first, with Chassidus to polish it up) rules, it's a recipe for disaster.

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May 21, 2012 at 04:52 AMAnonymous Says:

“
I have nothing against him, and neither do I have a filter on my internet... But he doesn't make sense, what he is saying is not right, if u can do something to help u fight it why not use it ”

I understand that he was rather saying: making a huge conference is not going to solve the problem, or any problem. The way to deal with a nissayon is through looking inside youself and finding you weak points, and strengthening them. That is the Jewish approach - not through corporate sponsored adverts festooned around the Mets Stadium, and listening to speeches by people who have no first-hand experience of the subject.

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May 21, 2012 at 05:09 AMAnonymous Says:

“
With all due respect to Rabbi Friedman, Just because you are a Rabbi, doesn't make you a challenger to all the great rabbis who have called for this asifa. It behooves anyone who disagrees, or has a better idea, to speak to the rabbis who called for the Asifa and discuss it with them. To come out publicly against the Asifa or to mock it, is just inappropriate. If you don't want to go, just don't go. The logic is also flawed in my opinon, I am sure they did whatever they could do to prevent communism from catching fire among the religious, so too we should gather together and do whatever we can do to prevent the internet from being an obstacle for the religious community. It is a shame that there is a deep seeded hatred between some chassidim and some religious Rabbis, and vise versa. It is time to repair the hatred of the past, and work on building our community as one big happy family. ”

When a certain rosh yeshiva can say without any shame that lubavitch are not aprt of klal yisroel (with regard to not inviting them to the asifa), no one in lubavitch need lower themselves to discussion with such. Besides, the asifa was the idea of certain individuals with a personal agenda, not of the rabbis, so discussion on any level is a waste of time, since the agenda will totally override any intelligent discussion. The rabbis have only come on board either through fear of appearing not frum enough, or through fear of exposure of heading (note: not leading) a system that is set up to fail.WRT to the efforts made to fight communism: your comparison makes me laugh. Do you think they fought communism with asifos? Get real.Disclaimer: I'm not a lubavitcher, and not even sympathetic to what they represent, but an attitude like said rosh yeshiva's crosses all boundaries (I also know full well that that's how they all talk - and worse - amongst themselves).

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May 21, 2012 at 01:20 PMAnonymous Says:

“
When a certain rosh yeshiva can say without any shame that lubavitch are not aprt of klal yisroel (with regard to not inviting them to the asifa), no one in lubavitch need lower themselves to discussion with such. Besides, the asifa was the idea of certain individuals with a personal agenda, not of the rabbis, so discussion on any level is a waste of time, since the agenda will totally override any intelligent discussion. The rabbis have only come on board either through fear of appearing not frum enough, or through fear of exposure of heading (note: not leading) a system that is set up to fail.WRT to the efforts made to fight communism: your comparison makes me laugh. Do you think they fought communism with asifos? Get real.Disclaimer: I'm not a lubavitcher, and not even sympathetic to what they represent, but an attitude like said rosh yeshiva's crosses all boundaries (I also know full well that that's how they all talk - and worse - amongst themselves). ”

And if you actually believe that any gadol would dare say any faction of Jews is not part of klal yisrael, I got a bridge to sell you. Your cynicism is clouding your judgment. YOu obviously have an agenda and it isn't l'shem Shamayim.

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May 21, 2012 at 01:21 PMAnonymous Says:

“
I understand that he was rather saying: making a huge conference is not going to solve the problem, or any problem. The way to deal with a nissayon is through looking inside youself and finding you weak points, and strengthening them. That is the Jewish approach - not through corporate sponsored adverts festooned around the Mets Stadium, and listening to speeches by people who have no first-hand experience of the subject. ”

Any Frum Jew, let alone a Rav, that's decent atall would know that you can have your opinions on things, but you don't go against what all the major gedoilim are saying and calling upon Jews to do.

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May 21, 2012 at 01:24 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Rabbi Manis Friedman is an AMAZING person! I have been to many of his classes at Bais Chana Women's Institute in Minnesota, and he is awesome! He has brought maybe thousands Jews back to Judaism in his decades of teaching. How many Jews can say they did the same? I am not with Chabad by the way. I just enjoyed going in the past to his Bais Chana Women's Institute on my vacations where I met women from all over the world - most who were not with Chabad and most not frum. Great food, great people - had lots of fun too. ”

No one is saying he's a bad person or that he doesn't do good work. But that doesn't minimize the fact that he's wrong here by expecting our generation to just toughen up and withstand our yeitzer Hara as if it's so simple, and he certainly shouldn't be negating the gedoilei hador's call to the masses.

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May 21, 2012 at 01:29 PMAnonymous Says:

“
No one is falling into "depravity" from using the internet. The pervets who satisfy their lusts by watching the internet will simply go back to buying magazines and porn CDs. Perhaps if those screaming at this Asifa would focus 1% of their energy and resources to providing professional help to these perverts, the klal would be a lot better off. ”

Don't be ridiculous. Having porn at the touch of one's fingertips is considerably more easy and accessible than going to a video store and watching the video....where? You seem to think its only perverts doing this, ou'd be surprised at how many Frum normal looking Jews are falling into this trap and are unable to stop..even after their wife discovers it. I have the data if you're interested and it's not looking good unfortunately for,our people.

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May 21, 2012 at 01:37 PMTo Bystander! Says:

“
Shame on Rabbi Friedman !! To me he is far from a mechanech, orhe could've made his whole speech to his talmidim how to conduct their lives, without knocking the approach of other rabbanim, older than he is. To laugh off others is wrong and to teach this to students, is a crime.. and a reWe know Lubavich has it in for Lakewood plus other agendas it's evident even through his big beard... All of you rightious "know it alls" "who seem to have answers for everything " if you knock this Asifa here, in public, is proof you are spiritually lost, and really need this asifa .. who are we to second guess the many Gedolie Yisroel that support this gathering? Of course it's easy to blame others for your ills. by knocking this Asifa, Rabbi Friedman included, either your'e in denial. or you really don't want to give up your ways,you love it you aren't even willing to try or make any sacrafice on your part and spend $10.00 , so you try to poke holes and find fault with everything, telling Rabbanim how to spend the money etc. Again, you don't want to go ? don't go.. you feel you're perfect? fine, just don't justify your guilt by knocking an issue that was sanctioned by so many daas torah. ”

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May 21, 2012 at 01:39 PMAnonymous Says:

“
I would hope that the opportunity of having all of Klal Yisroel in one place, would be used out for a Tefila and Bakosho from Hashem that he should send us Moshiach with the Geula Shleima immediately.

The Asifa is concerned with Kedush of Am Yisroel and is concerned with so much Tumah of the Internet.

Well, did it ever dawn on anyone that if Moshiach were to come today, then we will no longer have an Internet problem and it will be "V'Es Ruach hatumah Aaavir Min Haaretz"?

I can't imagine 40,000 in one place not recognizing that Moshiach is the only one that can solve the problem 100% because all other solutions like filters only do a very limited partial, largely ineffective, job. ”

I know certain Jews who will have a terribly hard time giving up their Internet when Moshiach comes....

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May 21, 2012 at 03:19 PMhadtocomment Says:

“
Don't be ridiculous. Having porn at the touch of one's fingertips is considerably more easy and accessible than going to a video store and watching the video....where? You seem to think its only perverts doing this, ou'd be surprised at how many Frum normal looking Jews are falling into this trap and are unable to stop..even after their wife discovers it. I have the data if you're interested and it's not looking good unfortunately for,our people. ”

I'm glad that you responded, so that I didn't have to. I would appreciate the data...please share with us.Other than the 1 response I got, what does everybody else think about the points I raised in my comment #15 ??

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May 21, 2012 at 06:32 PMRavsDaughter Says:

Instead of paying $2 million on an asifa, they should have found a master genius programmer to create a filter that would have a hechsher. No one gets porn at the library, no one gets porn at Microsoft in Bill Gates country.TV is also evil but there are redeeming factors. The internet is far more controllable as far as what category of information will be communicated. I never wanted my sons to see advertisements for bras & tampons. On the computer, you can put a good filter for about $40 a year that will block out inappropriate sites. The redeeming factors are half of Israel has a parnassah thanks to the internet. Plenty of American families are able to put bread on their tables thanks to the internet. The computer nerd has a place he can excel. It used to be computer nerds were total outcasts. They couldn’t farm, they couldn’t run a business (as we see Mark Zuckerberg struggling with Wall Street) but now they can make a decent living.I once was a guest at a Friday night seudah in Yerushalayim where another guest was “Off the Wall” (from the Kotel). The guest asked, “How will everyone know Moshiach has arrived on his white donkey in Yaffa Gate?” Without missing a beat, the 70 something year old baal tshuvah replied, “TV!”So it remains to be seen the amount of good that can come out with internet when we all stand together making a choice to take necessary steps to keep it clean!

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May 21, 2012 at 07:06 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Rabbi Friedman and chabad are right. There is no need for an asifa...or filters.If one suspects their yingeleh looking at bad things ...check the Mezuzos.Probably there is something wrong in the pusuk...lo sosiru achrei eiyneichem ”

The last time I checked, the possuk Lo sosuru acharei eineichem was not written in a Mezuzah. (A Mezuzah only has the Parshios of Shma and V'hoyo Im Shomoa)

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May 22, 2012 at 11:56 AMComputer Guy Says:

My 2 cents on this hot topic.... There is so much talk about the internet gathering in CitiField in which tons of big name rabbi's yelled and cried how bad the internet is.... I have complete respect and in awe and truly jealous of every single rabbi who spoke knowledge, however saying the internet is bad is stupid and foolish and shows a level of disconnect from current reality.... its like saying a car is bad or a knife is bad...a car can take you to a bad place or it can take you a to good places, a knife can be used to cut your steak or to kill someone... the internet can take you to good places and can take you to bad places...it is a parents job to teach a child how to drive just as it is a parents job to teach them how to use modern tools in a good way.. the claim that it is a tool that is deadly- with all due respect these comments shows a level of disconnect with reality..... a swimming pool is deadly and the Gemara (talmud) says that its a fathers responsibility to teach his child to swim, at the same token one who has a pool MUST have floats and life saving equipment available...Blaming the "internet" for people who do use it poorly is like blaming guns for shootings and cars for accidents.. its all in the driver or the gun owner.. It is a shame that the event wasn't utilized properly and wasn't used to educate those who aren't familiar with the internet how to secure their home/work machines and how to deal with their children...just like a pool, using the internet, especially when having kids at home it is IRRESPONSIBLE and deadly if one does not to have filters and levels of monitoring in place, however when used responsibility its an awesome tool that allows many of us (myself included) to make a living, gives unlimited access to educational, entertainment and news sources.... another interesting point the 2+ million dollars the event costed could have provided the best filters to every single person the event was target to..... It was extremely commendable the perfect behavior of the audience and was a true "kiddush hashem" other than that, IMO it was a wasted opportunity....

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May 20, 2016 at 10:23 AMSandraM Says:

The elephant in the room is the internet. So many people have it secretly, feeling like goyim, ashamed etc. but use it anyways. It turns good Jews into hypocrites and for what reason?

The internet is not going away. You cant book a hotel reservation, airline ticket etc today without it. Banking, bill payment is done through it. Making a huge asifa and another huge asifa won't make it go away.

Rabbi Friedman is saying look at the internet like any other nisayon. If you are a Jew, you can overcome the Nisayon.

Brilliant.

It is the secretiveness of the internet that makes it much, much worse. We need to learn how to use this valuable tool by strengthening our yiddishkeit, not running away from everything because of our yiddishkeit.

Baruch Hashem, klal yisrael has some intelligent leadership that can empower the next generation, instead of wringing their hands in utter despair.