.....You have no idea what your in for if you reject the gospel and do not repent. You do not know it's the ONLY way and without Christ in your life as your Lord and Savior and you hearing His voice daily obeying him.....

Andrew,

Unfortunately, I have a slight problem here. You see, the day before you posted this, I had a long conversation with a Muslim friend who told me that Allah was the one true god, that Jesus was a prophet rather than the Son of God, and that in order to avoid eternal torment I must pray the five Salat and declare the Shahada.

He was very definite that this was the ONLY path to salvation.

But then you came along and told me that accepting Christ was the only path to salvation.

So now I'm confused. How can I tell which one of you (if either) is telling the truth, and which one is feeding me a load of made-up nonsense that they gullibly accepted from their priests and family, a load of baseless and ridiculous assertions that I can ignore without the slightest consequence?

Short of tossing a coin, I'm hoping that perhaps you will be able to present some evidence for your assertion - evidence that can NOT be used by my Muslim friend to support HIS assertion. So I'm looking forward to hearing the specific evidence you have that supports your - and ONLY your - chosen god.

Well, the Muslim hell is described in far more detail and definitly seems worse than the Christian one, so, using Pascal's logic, you should bet on Islam.

Not just that, but Muslim heaven sounds better as well, so either way Islam is a better bet.

Also, if you get it wrong......Allah doesn't strike me as the forgiving type. Bet Christian, and Allah will brook no excuses. On the other hand, Christ is forgiving and loving and and all-round super guy, so I reckon there's a non-zero chance that if I go Muslim, there is still a chance he will let me into Christian heaven.

Well, the Muslim hell is described in far more detail and definitly seems worse than the Christian one, so, using Pascal's logic, you should bet on Islam.

Not just that, but Muslim heaven sounds better as well, so either way Islam is a better bet.

Weeeeeeell ... only if you're a dude ... or a lesbian as you'll get a chaste wife in heaven. But other than that ... Lounging around on soft cushions, being fed delicious fruit while hearing the wails of the poor sods who bet christian and are now being roasted alife over and over and over ... did I have a point?

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2 Interwebs 7:42And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.

Anything good in your life comes from God and if you reject God then when you die you will be separated and there will be no more water no more life, nor more good things only the painful fire of God withdrawing his presence.

If this is true, and if this pain is eternal, then your god owes it to me to reveal himself. Not through you, or some video, or a rainy day. He owes it to me to reveal himself to me, directly and unambiguously.

Don't get me wrong I am just as deserving of hell as you guys. All I'm doing is taking something that I know 100 percent without a doubt and writing it down. Why reject a gift that's available to you. Salvation cannot be earned but given by accepting Christ. That's what I've done and testify that it's either that or no salvation.

How could you be blissfully happy in heaven when others are suffering in hell because they did not believe a story told by humans who by nature lie so much? Have you no compassion for people that would be dissuaded by the horrible acts of so many that claim to be christian? What do you say to someone that has seen the behavior of the Westboro church and say to themselves that christianity must be false because these christians are so bad!

NO but justice was this. The perfect Son of God crushed and crucified for the whole world. That's divine justice - a free gift of salvation for all who will accept Jesus

So, is the villager who volunteers to be thrown into the volcano in order to appease the volcano so it won't erupt and destroy the entire village also just? Or is it murder, based on a delusional belief that the volcano is aware of the villagers and can be swayed based on human appeasement?

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

I know you take this lightly because you've convinced yourself that there is no God or no such thing as hell. Your mind has become a slave to demonic lies and you have convinced yourself that they are true. The reality of the situation is that there is a narrow way to Heaven and few find it and a broad way to hell and many go in it.

Doesn't this bit seem a little odd to you? Think about it. I think you would agree with the premise that Jesus wants people to be "saved." Isn't that why he's portrayed saying, "When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to me"? That's the message of John 3:16 and the rest, is it not? I think you would also agree with the premise that Satan wants people to be tortured forever in Hell. That, presumably, is what all the mind-enslaving to "demonic lies," the temptation to "sin," etc., etc., and so forth is all about. Right?

So. If it is the case that only a few find the way to Heaven, while the many end up on the road to Hell, then are you not telling us that Satan wins? Given that you believe Satan is able to accomplish an everlasting victory on such a scale, and both Jesus and Yahweh are utterly helpless to thwart him, doesn't this mean that you believe Satan to the the more powerful deity?

No one -- Not Me, not you, not any other being anywhere in the universe -- "deserves" to be tortured for eternity. No exceptions. And anyone who tells you otherwise is committing an act of psychological abuse against you.

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All I'm doing is taking something that I know believe 100 percent without a doubt...

FTFY.

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Why reject a gift that's available to you. Salvation cannot be earned but given by accepting Christ. That's what I've done and testify that it's either that or no salvation.

Then I choose "no salvation." The supposed gift is utter depravity, a shit stain on your precious humanity. It is an act of cowardice to worship a god that would torture people, and even worse to let "Jesus" die in your place. Someday I hope that you come to understand this.

How could you be blissfully happy in heaven when others are suffering in hell because they did not believe a story told by humans who by nature lie so much? Have you no compassion for people that would be dissuaded by the horrible acts of so many that claim to be christian? What do you say to someone that has seen the behavior of the Westboro church and say to themselves that christianity must be false because these christians are so bad!

Muhammed tried, atleast to explain this away. Those going to their chaste wives in heaven can hear the wails of the suffering in hell but they know that this is Allah's perfect justice and are happy for it. There you go, quran 2 - bible 0.Did you remember to perform the salah this morning, Andrew? Eternal burning in hell if you didn't.

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2 Interwebs 7:42And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.

Don't get me wrong I am just as deserving of hell as you guys. All I'm doing is taking something that I know 100 percent without a doubt and writing it down. Why reject a gift that's available to you. Salvation cannot be earned but given by accepting Christ. That's what I've done and testify that it's either that or no salvation.

.....I had a long conversation with a Muslim friend who told me that Allah was the one true god, that Jesus was a prophet rather than the Son of God, and that in order to avoid eternal torment I must pray the five Salat and declare the Shahada.

He was very definite that this was the ONLY path to salvation.

But then you came along and told me that accepting Christ was the only path to salvation.

So now I'm confused. How can I tell which one of you (if either) is telling the truth.....?

Because at the moment, I'm stuck in an "Andrew says", "Islam says" situation, with no way of telling which (if either) claim is true. And - although I expressed it humorously - the benefits of Islam seem to far outweigh the benefits of Christ, while the downsides of Islam are worse than the downsides of Christ.

So unless you can given me anything concrete to work with, if I HAVE to jump, I'm going to jump towards Mohammed.

That's divine justice - a free gift of salvation for all who will accept Jesus

Bold mine

Let's put aside the fact of my atheism for a moment. Please explain to me in plain English how this "accept Jesus" part works. I'm being completely serious. What does it mean to "accept Jesus"? What am I supposed to do to "accept Jesus"?

If someone hands something to me and I accept it, I know how that works - I've got the something in my hand - I've "accepted" it. That's clearly not what you are suggesting, so please clarify - what do you mean?

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"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

But that's not really true, is it? Perhaps you're a generally very good person, who gets along with others and donates of his wealth and time in charitable works. On the other hand, there are people who spend their lives making others miserable and generally being quite foul and unkind. Are you just as deserving of hell as that person? Now, if you accept the salvation of Christ, you get a reward that is far beyond what you deserve, is that not correct?

So realistically, where do you fit in? The god of justice is either going to give you a punishment that is unfathomably more severe than you deserve, or a reward that is incalculably more wonderful than you deserve. Is there no in-between?

You see, if god offers us a choice between a spectacularly wonderful reward and just plain death (ie, non-existence forever) then I'm not so perturbed by his admittedly bizarre decision to hide himself from us. Because then my lot in life would have been a pretty enjoyable existence followed by nothing, and that's not bad at all, IMO.

On the other hand, if the choice is between that unimaginably wonderful reward and an equally unimaginably terrible punishment, then his disappearing act is not befuddling-- it is unacceptable. God cannot make that kind of offer/threat without plainly revealing himself and making the consequences of belief/unbelief perfectly clear. He owes it to me to reveal himself. None of this "ask/seek/knock" or "long and narrow road" garbage. If he threatens to torment me forever then he'd damned well better show his face and reveal his plans. Otherwise he is a sick and sadistic bastard who ALWAYS intended to watch people suffer forever. You want to worship that? You can have it.

Andrew, what did Jesus really do that the average man or woman walking down the street would not have also done?

Think about it. You can be tortured to death, and in return, everlasting salvation for every human being who has ever lived. I would volunteer for that. Wouldn't you? Most people would. So what makes Jesus so special?

I would accept torture and death for far less than salvation for everyone. I would accept it to end all disease or all starvation or all war. I'd take being tortured and hung on a cross if it was guranteed to stop all animal cruelty and all child abuse.

Hell, I'd certainly take crucifixion to save my own family members from ordinary death. Lots of people would do that. And without knowing they'd be reborn in a few days and go straight to heaven.

So, why is Jesus so special for his "sacrifice"? (Aside from the fact that it has not seemed to work-- 5 billion of the 7 billion people on earth have not been convinced to become Christians...)

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Andrew, what did Jesus really do that the average man or woman walking down the street would not have also done?

Think about it. You can be tortured to death, and in return, everlasting salvation for every human being who has ever lived. I would volunteer for that. Wouldn't you? Most people would. So what makes Jesus so special?

I would accept torture and death for far less than salvation for everyone. I would accept it to end all disease or all starvation or all war. I'd take being tortured and hung on a cross if it was guranteed to stop all animal cruelty and all child abuse.

Hell, I'd certainly take crucifixion to save my own family members from ordinary death. Lots of people would do that. And without knowing they'd be reborn in a few days and go straight to heaven.

So, why is Jesus so special for his "sacrifice"? (Aside from the fact that it has not seemed to work-- 5 billion of the 7 billion people on earth have not been convinced to become Christians...)

What Jesus did is that not only was He God but he lived a perfect life. Every other person is evil. Jesus was the one sinless perfection so that makes his sacrifice special. Only perfection could die for imperfection to replace it.

What Jesus did is that not only was He God but he lived a perfect life. Every other person is evil. Jesus was the one sinless perfection so that makes his sacrifice special. Only perfection could die for imperfection to replace it.

Sorry, Andrew, but you're just illustrating the basic problem with your belief system. It gives your god the credit for everything, except the bad things, which are always someone else's fault; it says your god is totally blameless for evil, and in fact, gives him extra credit for coming up with a way to save humans from evil.

It's the kind of propaganda that dictatorial tyrants dream of. Is it any wonder that the atheists and skeptics here are not interested in what you're hawking?

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Andrew, what did Jesus really do that the average man or woman walking down the street would not have also done?

Think about it. You can be tortured to death, and in return, everlasting salvation for every human being who has ever lived. I would volunteer for that. Wouldn't you? Most people would. So what makes Jesus so special?

I would accept torture and death for far less than salvation for everyone. I would accept it to end all disease or all starvation or all war. I'd take being tortured and hung on a cross if it was guranteed to stop all animal cruelty and all child abuse.

Hell, I'd certainly take crucifixion to save my own family members from ordinary death. Lots of people would do that. And without knowing they'd be reborn in a few days and go straight to heaven.

So, why is Jesus so special for his "sacrifice"? (Aside from the fact that it has not seemed to work-- 5 billion of the 7 billion people on earth have not been convinced to become Christians...)

What Jesus did is that not only was He God but he lived a perfect life. Every other person is evil. Jesus was the one sinless perfection so that makes his sacrifice special. Only perfection could die for imperfection to replace it.

However, Jesus also presumably had inside knowledge that his sacrifice would, indeed, do what it was supposed to, and that after all was said and done, he would have endured a weekend's worth of agony for the salvation of "all" (except for the 75% or so who fell through the cracks) of humanity, after which he would go on to sit at the right had of god for all eternity?

How is that more admirable than the assertations of those here who tell you they would suffer an equivalent amount if they believed they could rid the world of various scourges when their sacrifice would necessarily be less informed than anything Jesus had? And who had no absolute promise of recompense?

What Jesus did is that not only was He God but he lived a perfect life.

No, he most certainly did not "live a perfect life." All you have to do is read the Gospels to see what a self-righteous, arrogant jerk he was. His rap sheet from Jerusalem includes an act of verbal abuse (likening the foreign woman at the well to a dog); destruction of a fig tree; destruction of a village's herd of pigs; and Accessory to Grand Theft Ass and Colt.

Oh, and there was the time he dissed his ma, and the time he caused a riot in the temple. He lied about where he was going on at least one occasion.

He was also a hypocrite -- He said that people who called others fools would be in danger of hellfire; yet he, himself called people fools.

I know you take this lightly because you've convinced yourself that there is no God or no such thing as hell. Your mind has become a slave to demonic lies and you have convinced yourself that they are true. The reality of the situation is that there is a narrow way to Heaven and few find it and a broad way to hell and many go in it. You have no idea what your in for if you reject the gospel and do not repent. You do not know it's the ONLY way and without Christ in your life as your Lord and Savior and you hearing His voice daily obeying him... without repenting of you sins and turning to God's grace you will perish and nothing could prepare you for separation from God because while you are still yet alive you still experience rain, and life, and food, and many blessings from God. Anything good in your life comes from God and if you reject God then when you die you will be separated and there will be no more water no more life, nor more good things only the painful fire of God withdrawing his presence.

You consider your God to be good, but he's the one who promises eternal torture for those who don't bow down and obey. God is only a saviour from himself, but he's managed to convince people otherwise in the bible. Let's say God is real, why should I bow down to him? Because he threatens me with pain and suffering? If he wants my love and respect, fear isn't the way to get it, I may bow down to save my own skin, but I would still hate it and I would have no real love or respect for this God, simply because I would find it impossible to love somebody as violent, cruel and wrathful as the God of the bible. All human tyrants combined are lesser to God's cruelty. Why would I have such a distaste to such tyrants, but love God, the tyrant of all tyrants? Simply does not make sense. I know a good tyrant can manipulate people and perhaps convince them to love them out of fear, but unfortunately for me, I know better than that.

You talk of the devil, whilst I don't believe in his existence, he's far less cruel in the bible, his actions are only against God, which is why he's considered evil. I wonder, have people every considered that God has fooled them with ridiculous propaganda to love and worship him? I mean, it has happened throughout history and heck, we still see it today.

I am kinda reminded of this Mitchell and Webb sketch (sorry for the quality, there isn't any good quality versions):

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“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto MusashiWarning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.