I am truly on the fence with this trade with regards to this franchise.

I could argue the positive and I could argue the negative.... and I think I've done both on these forums.

It will truly depend on what comes next to get my opinion.

Some things I would point out are:

1) the Raptors have a upper tier SF for the first time..... in a very long time. A glaring hole has finally been addressed.
2) the Raptors "core" has no one currently over 26. They are lined up to have the guys currently entering their prime to be exiting their prime as the young guys enter their prime (if that makes sense).
3) barring injury, my opinion is this team is a playoff team. The question becomes how far can they go assuming things work out for the best?
4) The Raptors have their top 2 prospects still on the team after the trade.
5) With no draft pick this year (most likely) and sad trade assets, how were the Raps to acquire young assets? Calderon was the most valuable and he could only get a washed up prospect and an aging former champion. I was all about dump your shit for prospects and picks but maybe that wasn't an option and just staying with what the Raptors had was a losing proposition.
6) DeRozan is a trade asset you left out. If DD and AB are traded, I'd much rather pay Gay $18M than those two $19.5M.
7) The Raptors front court has a rookie showing promise in Acy as an energy 12 minute guy and JV coming back from injury. In my opinion, it is not much thinner than before w/ ED and JV out. Also, and this comes back to what is coming next, some wings and Bargnani need to go to get that starting PF that is now needed (Amir is a great backup).

What comes next is crucial and the franchise is never going to advance dwelling on the last 17 years, in my opinion.

I could also argue either side. But I was giving my opinion, not showcasing my argumentation skills.
Anyways, here are my symmetrical counter-arguments.. haha
1) The Raptors filled one hole and opened two more. Not enough fingers for the dyke it seems.
2) For contractual reasons (too much money tied up), and development reasons (Ross and JV too raw), I can't see this scenario working out. Colangelo constantly calls this a build. Well I think the foundation here (of bloated salaries for mediocre players) is dog shit.
3) I'm not sold on this being a playoff team. We are razor thin at the point and up front. I don't think these issues can be sufficiently addressed by trading Bargnani.
4) True
5) The economist in me does not like the idea of devoting more resources to a failed venture. Maybe the present course was predetermined by trading away our first round pick last summer, but that goof can't really be a reason to continue on this path to nowhere, can it?
6) Derozan may be an asset, but I suspect the market for volume scoring, non-defensive, overpaid (at this point) shooting guards is not as brisk as you imagine.

It's not good to dwell on the past, but important to learn from it. This process has played itself out before.
All I do at times like this is appreciate the development of the young guys and pray for better management in the future.

I could also argue either side. But I was giving my opinion, not showcasing my argumentation skills.
Anyways, here are my symmetrical counter-arguments.. haha
1) The Raptors filled one hole and opened two more. Not enough fingers for the dyke it seems.
2) For contractual reasons (too much money tied up), and development reasons (Ross and JV too raw), I can't see this scenario working out. Colangelo constantly calls this a build. Well I think the foundation here (of bloated salaries for mediocre players) is dog shit.
3) I'm not sold on this being a playoff team. We are razor thin at the point and up front. I don't think these issues can be sufficiently addressed by trading Bargnani.
4) True
5) The economist in me does not like the idea of devoting more resources to a failed venture. Maybe the present course was predetermined by trading away our first round pick last summer, but that goof can't really be a reason to continue on this path to nowhere, can it?
6) Derozan may be an asset, but I suspect the market for volume scoring, non-defensive, overpaid (at this point) shooting guards is not as brisk as you imagine.

It's not good to dwell on the past, but important to learn from it. This process has played itself out before.
All I do at times like this is appreciate the development of the young guys and pray for better management in the future.

I agree 100% with your point... How can u not? But at the end of the day...why not be positive?? Ultimately, Matt is right. The jury is out. We can get lucky. We had probably dozens of chances to win at the buzzer that we missed when derozan took that shot in Orlando...no one ever would have predicted it would go in and it did

Even tho we've failed so many years...it just needs to work once and we can take a step..... Maybe this is that time

Oh, I'm still on board. No one could follow this team without some hope. It's just so painful to watch the same mistakes being made over and over.
And of course you're both right that anything could happen. If this plan does work out I will be one happy, crow eating, SOB!

I see a lot of small ball in our immediate future, which should prove effective for the Raptors, seeing Rudy Gay's skill set dictates for him to operate in the mid-high post area. It's sad to see Jose and Boss go, but essentially, we gave up one prospect to land a player who just falls under the elite class of small forwards.

Let's just say this. I would much rather have Rudy Gay and his enormous contract than have Bargnani + Fields + Kleiza, who pretty much adds up to Rudy's salary. The bottom line is, we have added talent at the expense of ONE of our prospects, who may or may not pan out. I believe it is much easier to find an effective power forward who will do everything you ask of a big, than find a talent who has the ability to score on his defender ONE on ONE when the game is on the line.

That being said, emotionally, this hurts because Ed Davis has become my favorite Raptor and I thought Jose would be the first Raptor lifer.

“I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

I could also argue either side. But I was giving my opinion, not showcasing my argumentation skills.
Anyways, here are my symmetrical counter-arguments.. haha
1) The Raptors filled one hole and opened two more. Not enough fingers for the dyke it seems.
2) For contractual reasons (too much money tied up), and development reasons (Ross and JV too raw), I can't see this scenario working out. Colangelo constantly calls this a build. Well I think the foundation here (of bloated salaries for mediocre players) is dog shit.
3) I'm not sold on this being a playoff team. We are razor thin at the point and up front. I don't think these issues can be sufficiently addressed by trading Bargnani.
4) True
5) The economist in me does not like the idea of devoting more resources to a failed venture. Maybe the present course was predetermined by trading away our first round pick last summer, but that goof can't really be a reason to continue on this path to nowhere, can it?
6) Derozan may be an asset, but I suspect the market for volume scoring, non-defensive, overpaid (at this point) shooting guards is not as brisk as you imagine.

It's not good to dwell on the past, but important to learn from it. This process has played itself out before.
All I do at times like this is appreciate the development of the young guys and pray for better management in the future.

Hey, at least Lowry gets his number 7 back once Vegetable Lasagna is shipped out of town.

“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

When Jose was in we'd get a ten point lead. When Kyle comes in we lose the lead. It's a fact.
It's just Mike James/Jared Bayless all over again. Just more confident & less reliable.
Drive and dish Lowry. Gimmie 8 assists Lowry. Get the other 4 guys on the floor involved. Then i'll trust you.
Gawd I miss Jose

When Jose was in we'd get a ten point lead. When Kyle comes in we lose the lead. It's a fact.
It's just Mike James/Jared Bayless all over again. Just more confident & less reliable.
Drive and dish Lowry. Gimmie 8 assists Lowry. Get the other 4 guys on the floor involved. Then i'll trust you.
Gawd I miss Jose

You mean u miss mediocrity? Who cares what happened with mike james and bayless? Our teams sucked and Jose never lead us to take the next step. He's a good player and he was probably the fall guy in this situation but I think in this situation chane is good

Anyone listen to tim and sid yesterday with lowry on the show? They asked him a few questions regarding learning and watching how the team played and if he learned anything and I wasn't overly thrilled with his answers. Basically said that he didn't need to change his game and he is going to play the way he did during the beginning of the season. While his numbers were great, we were exactly a better team because of it. His play during his return from injury surely didn't look similar to the lowry we saw in the beginning... interesting to see him with our roster fully back.

Anyone listen to tim and sid yesterday with lowry on the show? They asked him a few questions regarding learning and watching how the team played and if he learned anything and I wasn't overly thrilled with his answers. Basically said that he didn't need to change his game and he is going to play the way he did during the beginning of the season. While his numbers were great, we were exactly a better team because of it. His play during his return from injury surely didn't look similar to the lowry we saw in the beginning... interesting to see him with our roster fully back.

didn't hear it but I'm glad.

Look, Jose played a certain way, and that was great, but Lowry started to come on and try to play more like him, which obviously didn't work. I think that trading jose is a message to Lowry that he should be playing his game.

We are not going to be a winning playoff team with Jose's style. You put Jose on a team like the Lakers or Miami he would be amazing. We don't have the talent for our PG to defer like he did.

Look, Jose played a certain way, and that was great, but Lowry started to come on and try to play more like him, which obviously didn't work. I think that trading jose is a message to Lowry that he should be playing his game.

We are not going to be a winning playoff team with Jose's style. You put Jose on a team like the Lakers or Miami he would be amazing. We don't have the talent for our PG to defer like he did.

This team is being built for Lowry's style so let's see what happens

I agree and it is a good thing - to an extent. I feel like if he can find a healthy medium our team will be better off. The one thing I love about KL is the size of his balls.... those pull up 3's!

Was Lowry holding back or was he HELD back?

Will post my previous posts...and see what you think.

2/1- Trade official(Heartbreak Hotel a.ka. "No WAY JOSE!!") When Jose was in we'd get a ten point lead. When Kyle comes in we lose the lead. It's a fact. It's just Mike James/Jared Bayless all over again. Just more confident & less reliable. Drive and dish Lowry. Gimmie 8 assists Lowry. Get the other 4 guys on the floor involved. Then i'll trust you.
Gawd I miss Jose

Tor vs Clips 2/2- I asked for 8 assists and he gave it to me. Had success when he drove & dished. Only had 3 points so you could say that is "unselfish" basketball. However, he still attempted unnecessary 3's that through off the flow of the game. He didn't turnover the ball.