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A Few Questions (originally meant to be sent to administrators as an e-mail)

Posted on: February 7, 2007 - 10:10pm

weasel7711

Posts: 14

Joined: 2007-02-07

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A Few Questions (originally meant to be sent to administrators as an e-mail)

I dont expect this to be taken seriously but here goes:I am a Christian, I acknowledge the existence of the Holy Spirit and Christ, through whom I live and have existence. I am not here to tell you that you are going to hell, im sure the wolves in sheeps clothing that call themselves christians have attempted to oust you will damnation already. Im not here to insult you either, im sure you have recieved your share of insults. Im here to discuss. Feel free to respond, you will find im a fairly rational thinker.

I recently viewed some of your videos on the Blasphemy Challenge on youtube. I respect athiests in the manner that they are using their logical minds that have been given to them by God, and I agree with american atheists in that there are a lot of borderline-retarded Christians out there who use the bible as an excuse to be ignorant. However, logic and faith can be excercised without being irrational.

First:I believe you are misunderstanding the essence of the unforgivable sin. The blasphemy of the holy spirit is the perpetual denial of the existence of God or for the free forgiveness of sins. It seems like a waste of time since you are not really getting anywhere with denying the existence of the holy spirit. God will still forgive you if you wish.

Second:I have a rebuttal to your belief that Christians are irrational. I find it just as irrational (that is if you dont believe in any sort of creator) to believe that atoms suddenly appeared, when one of newton's laws is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. The first cause argument has never been successfully destroyed by an athiest for me, so see if you can do it. How do atheists explain the fact that everything in the universe must have a cause, yet there is a denial of the existence of a being that could have caused it??

Third:General question to any atheist out there who wants to answer it. If there is no God, no eternity, no heaven, no hell, etc.; What is your explanation for the point of existence on earth. It would seem to me that the natural inclination is to have all the sex you want, do all the drugs you want, kill whoever you feel like, and live for youself. Otherwise, the second inclination is to end your meaningless life. After all, there is no point to it, correct? Nothing we do here has any significance. Why even have a moral code? You will not gain anything by it, you will not be condemned by it. Im sure that if someone were to walk up to a close friend of yours and shoot them point blank range, (if you were a true atheist and held to the logical nihilistic beliefs that sprout from nihilism), you would have no problem with that. However I get the feeling that you would have a huge problem with that. Explain to me why, if, after all, we are just a mass of atoms.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I pray God opens your eyes to his unimaginable mercy.

The Voice: It is the Broodwich. Forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre. Baked by Beelzebub. Slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chickens force-fed to dogs by the hands of a one-eyed madman. Cheese boiled from t

And even then, even if there was a being to cause it's existence, you still have two questions:

1. What caused this being?

2.And where did this being get the matterial to make the universe?

I guess it reminds me of the same reason that in mathematics 0.9999999999999999999..... will eventually reach 1 somehow even though it will always be that much farther away, it is still a "logical" truth... doesnt make much sense

I think that it is empirically impossible to either prove or disprove the existence of a creator being. In order for that creator being to exist, it would have to exist outside the real of physics. Therefore I dont think that people who believe in the existence of a God should be looked down upon because its just as rational as believing that a painting has a painter. You see evidence, you know it couldnt have just appeared.

Quote:

You assume there has to be a point. there doesn't have to be a point, but while we are here, let's make the most of it.

and get myself rejected by my family and freinds. I have to keep straight, or else I'll spend the rest of my life alone.

Just becuasse the earth is pointless, doesn't mean you are. Again, we are here, let's make the most of it.

I still cant see how you can want to follow any set of moral laws. What consists of making the most of life? Enjoying yourself? Indulging in carnal desires? Im sure you could be perfectly happy with sleeping with prostitutes and robbing banks. You get all the sex and money you want.

My opinion is close to that of C.S. Lewis who once wrote: If I find in myself a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the only conclusion that I can come to is that I was made for another world.

Quote:

Nice to see a new fresh face here though.

Thanks, glad to be here.

The Voice: It is the Broodwich. Forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre. Baked by Beelzebub. Slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chickens force-fed to dogs by the hands of a one-eyed madman. Cheese boiled from t

I dont expect this to be taken seriously but here goes:I am a Christian, I acknowledge the existence of the Holy Spirit and Christ, through whom I live and have existence. I am not here to tell you that you are going to hell, im sure the wolves in sheeps clothing that call themselves christians have attempted to oust you will damnation already. Im not here to insult you either, im sure you have recieved your share of insults. Im here to discuss. Feel free to respond, you will find im a fairly rational thinker.

Nice to meet you. Just don't take bluntness as a personal attack.

weasel7711 wrote:

I recently viewed some of your videos on the Blasphemy Challenge on youtube. I respect athiests in the manner that they are using their logical minds that have been given to them by God, and I agree with american atheists in that there are a lot of borderline-retarded Christians out there who use the bible as an excuse to be ignorant. However, logic and faith can be excercised without being irrational.

Pray, tell. The irrational part is faith.

weasel7711 wrote:

First:I believe you are misunderstanding the essence of the unforgivable sin. The blasphemy of the holy spirit is the perpetual denial of the existence of God or for the free forgiveness of sins. It seems like a waste of time since you are not really getting anywhere with denying the existence of the holy spirit. God will still forgive you if you wish.

You're missing the point. This is a common thing brought up, so read around and you'll find the answers.

weasel7711 wrote:

Second:I have a rebuttal to your belief that Christians are irrational. I find it just as irrational (that is if you dont believe in any sort of creator) to believe that atoms suddenly appeared, when one of newton's laws is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. The first cause argument has never been successfully destroyed by an athiest for me, so see if you can do it. How do atheists explain the fact that everything in the universe must have a cause, yet there is a denial of the existence of a being that could have caused it??

We don't believe atoms suddenly appeared. I doubt any serious scientific theories would violate conservation of matter, because they would be thrown out by scientists.

Just because we see cause and effect in the universe doesn't mean the universe itself needs a cause. Once again, this is discussed a lot, so read around and you'll find the answers.

weasel7711 wrote:

Third:General question to any atheist out there who wants to answer it. If there is no God, no eternity, no heaven, no hell, etc.; What is your explanation for the point of existence on earth.

I assume you mean does our existence have some cosmic, god-given purpose. I would say then there's no point of existence more than to exist, and continue existing.

weasel7711 wrote:

It would seem to me that the natural inclination is to have all the sex you want, do all the drugs you want, kill whoever you feel like, and live for youself.

No, that's not our natural inclination, because humans are social animals. The activities you mentioned are anti-social at various levels. Are you saying that if it wasn't for god, you'd do all this things?

weasel7711 wrote:

Otherwise, the second inclination is to end your meaningless life. After all, there is no point to it, correct? Nothing we do here has any significance.

I have no thoughts of suicide. Just because there's no divine purpose in life, doesn't mean my life is not worth living.

What we do here is not significance compared to what?

weasel7711 wrote:

Why even have a moral code? You will not gain anything by it, you will not be condemned by it.

Im sure that if someone were to walk up to a close friend of yours and shoot them point blank range, (if you were a true atheist and held to the logical nihilistic beliefs that sprout from nihilism), you would have no problem with that. However I get the feeling that you would have a huge problem with that. Explain to me why, if, after all, we are just a mass of atoms.

I'd have a problem with someone shooting a close friend, because it's a close friend. I have a social bond with my friend, and I don't want to loose it. Us being a mass of atoms doesn't change that fact.

What's a "true atheist," and exactly how does that lead to nihilism?

weasel7711 wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I pray God opens your eyes to his unimaginable mercy.

I was an Christian for 18 years. If God exists, he's had plenty of chances to open my eyes, and he can do it at any time.

Therefore I dont think that people who believe in the existence of a God should be looked down upon because its just as rational as believing that a painting has a painter.

But a painting is just an ordinary object, we have hundreds, and paintings can be made by accedent too. The universe, the only one we currently know, very special thing.

But as I said, if the universe needed creating, so did the thing that created.

Quote:

Therefore I dont think that people who believe in the existence of a God should be looked down upon

I don't look down at theists, just at idiots.

Not saying anything about you here.

weasel7711 wrote:

I still cant see how you can want to follow any set of moral laws. What consists of making the most of life? Enjoying yourself? Indulging in carnal desires? Im sure you could be perfectly happy with sleeping with prostitutes and robbing banks. You get all the sex and money you want.

I wrote:

and get myself rejected by my family and freinds? I have to keep straight, or else I'll spend the rest of my life alone.

Or in jail, or with a huge regret. In other words, I do good, for my own good.

I guess it reminds me of the same reason that in mathematics 0.9999999999999999999..... will eventually reach 1 somehow even though it will always be that much farther away, it is still a "logical" truth... doesnt make much sense

This is just a pedantic point. 0.9999... equals 1. They're two different ways to write the same number. It makes perfect sense if you know about geometric series.

weasel7711 wrote:

I think that it is empirically impossible to either prove or disprove the existence of a creator being. In order for that creator being to exist, it would have to exist outside the real of physics. Therefore I dont think that people who believe in the existence of a God should be looked down upon because its just as rational as believing that a painting has a painter. You see evidence, you know it couldnt have just appeared.

On the same token, people who don't believe in God shoud be looked down upon. Paintings and the universe are apples and oranges. We don't say it all just appeared.

Anyway, if it were shown that the universe has always been, that would rule out a creator God.

weasel7711 wrote:

I still cant see how you can want to follow any set of moral laws. What consists of making the most of life? Enjoying yourself? Indulging in carnal desires? Im sure you could be perfectly happy with sleeping with prostitutes and robbing banks. You get all the sex and money you want.

You only have morals because God tells you to do or not do things? I feel like your asking loaded questions. I'd rather have sex in a loving, trustful relationship. I don't rob banks for two reason. (1) I don't want to go to prison. (2) I don't like people who steal, because I don't want to be stolen from. I'm sorry but this "you can't be a moral person if your not a theist" thing is wrong.

I get meaning from my life by learning about this wondrous universe we live in, by being with friends and family, by listing to music, by being creative. I live knowing that this is the only life I have and I'm going to enjoy it, now.

First:I believe you are misunderstanding the essence of the unforgivable sin. The blasphemy of the holy spirit is the perpetual denial of the existence of God or for the free forgiveness of sins. It seems like a waste of time since you are not really getting anywhere with denying the existence of the holy spirit. God will still forgive you if you wish.

Your ad hoc interpretation is fascinating, but that's not what it says in the bible. Mark states quite clearly that those who deny the holy spirit cannot be fogiven. Period. However, don't take my statement as any sort of criticism of your admirable decision to leave pure faith in your holy book in favour of an interpretation that is informed by modern morality and rationality. You've made a good start, now keep moving in that direction.

weasel7711 wrote:

Second:I have a rebuttal to your belief that Christians are irrational. I find it just as irrational (that is if you dont believe in any sort of creator) to believe that atoms suddenly appeared,

Strawman. This is one possible beginning for the universe, but no one has advanced this theory beyond the stage of speculation. There is no agreement in science that the universe suddenly appeared from nothing. The present state of scientific theory regarding the very beginning of the universe is that we don't know where it came from.

weasel7711 wrote:

when one of newton's laws is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

This suggests that universe has always existed in some form or another, not that god violated his own natural law to spontaneously create it.

weasel7711 wrote:

The first cause argument has never been successfully destroyed by an athiest for me, so see if you can do it.

Done and done. Next?

weasel7711 wrote:

How do atheists explain the fact that everything in the universe must have a cause, yet there is a denial of the existence of a being that could have caused it??

Look at the enormous assumption you just made. Everything in the universe must have a cause? Oh really? Why? It may very well be a colossal error to even speak about causes under the conditions that persisted at the beginning of the universe. The universe may have had no beginning. Your insistence that the universe must have a beginning in the same way that a car has to have a beginning is nothing more than a failure of imagination.

I find it amusing that the best defence of your creator story that you can come up with is to attack the scientific theory, as if proving it wrong will leave you in the right. Try again. Even if you managed to totally discredit everything science has said about the early universe, you would still only succeed in bringing us to a position where we don't know. You wouldn't be one inch closer to showing that the universe has a creator, or that you know anything about that creator. Your reluctance to show any positive proof for your belief betrays your knowledge that such proof just doesn't exist.

In any event, all you've presented is a strawman. No one is arguing that matter or energy just popped spontaneously out of nowhere, though philosophy and quantum theory suggest that something like that may actually be possible. Big Bang theory describes events very very soon AFTER the creation of the universe. It makes no claims about the time before that.

So we don't know where the universe came from. And neither do you.

weasel7711 wrote:

Third:General question to any atheist out there who wants to answer it. If there is no God, no eternity, no heaven, no hell, etc.; What is your explanation for the point of existence on earth.

Why does there have to be one? Would the whole world suddenly pop out of existence if people suddenly couldn't see a point to its being around? If so, it better get popping given the lack of agreement on the point of existence.

weasel7711 wrote:

It would seem to me that the natural inclination is to have all the sex you want, do all the drugs you want, kill whoever you feel like, and live for youself.

Are you seriously telling me that only your religious beliefs prevent you from engaging in this kind of behaviour? If so, I'll tell you straight out that you should seek help. Animals don't do this stuff, and they have no religion at all.

weasel7711 wrote:

Otherwise, the second inclination is to end your meaningless life.

Now the natural state of man is to be suicidal? Um, how did all those people manage to carry on before the bible was written?

weasel7711 wrote:

After all, there is no point to it, correct? Nothing we do here has any significance. Why even have a moral code?

Because our actions have huge significance in their proper context: the context of our lives. I fail to see why our actions must determine the fate of the universe before they can be important to us. Why have a moral code? Because a) we need one to survive as a species and b) life is a lot better with one.

weasel7711 wrote:

You will not gain anything by it, you will not be condemned by it.

Both these ideas are beside the point of a moral code.

weasel7711 wrote:

Im sure that if someone were to walk up to a close friend of yours and shoot them point blank range, (if you were a true atheist and held to the logical nihilistic beliefs that sprout from nihilism),

Time to read a book. Atheism and nihilism are entirely unrelated and one in no way implies or requires the other.

weasel7711 wrote:

you would have no problem with that. However I get the feeling that you would have a huge problem with that. Explain to me why, if, after all, we are just a mass of atoms.

Because the mass of atoms is arranged in the form of a brain, which is running various processes that enable the whole organism to function as a social animal. One of these processes is empathy, wherein the organism internally models the emotions it observes and experiences a muted version of the same emotion. No soul required.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown

First off, let me thank you for your directness, and courtesy, very refreshing. I will attempt to answer your questions for you in order.

1) I don't think it's really the point if we "get it" or not. The point of the blasphemy challenge is to allow people who've felt repressed, surpressed, or dominated by religious indoctrination to relieve themselves of that feeling. To liberate minds, as it were. I am by far no bible scholar, but the wording of Mark 3:29 seems pretty straight forward, and i've heard of corroborating passages as well.

2) There are several theories on the formation of matter as a result of the Big Bang. I would suggest doing several searches on the subject. In the end, the real answer to the question is simply, we don't know yet. Not to say that we will never know, science has merely not been able to explain it yet. Just as 200 years ago we had no knowledge of things like nuclear power, black holes, or cable television, so too now we haven't progressed far enough on that front. We atheists, being inquisitive, scientific minded people, aren't willing to dismiss the lack of information with the simple explanation, "god did it". How many technological and medical advances would never have been if we all thought that way? None at all.

3) The point of our exsistance is to procreate. That is what drives all life forms, and the only real "reason" we are here. As for the question of morality, the axiom, "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you", is my only answer. We call it the "social contract", simply put, I don't want you stealing from me, so I won't steal from you. I don't want you shooting my family or friends, so I won't shoot yours. I wouldn't like it if you set my pants on fire, so I will reciprocate the favor. I am a good, kind, caring, and giving person because that's how I was raised to be, even in the absense of religion. I was raised without any mention of the subject in my house. In fact, the only times I even remember it coming up during my childhood, was when I brought it up to my parents. So I am the person I am not because of dogma, or fear of going to hell to be the devils whipping boy, but because my parents instilled in me how to cunduct yourself in society, and how to be a productive member of the community.

If you have anything you would like to expand on, you can do it here or private message me if you wish, and I hope science opens your eyes to it's unimaginable understanding.

Nihlio - nothing (be ready to see a lot of that word in the following writing)

I come to the conclusion that nihilism is a direct result of atheism because, acording to atheism, we come from nothing and we end in nothing. Therefore if something begins with nothing and ends with nothing, how can "something" fill the gap in between. Our lives are nothing. Existence is one gigantic perpetual machine. Nothing we do echoes into eternity. Human life is worth nothing. Your best friend's life is worth nothing. What does that bond you have with your friend matter, just get another friend, there are over 6 billion people on the earth. Odds are that you can find someone with similar views.

According to darwinian thought, there is no real need for things like love or sacrifice because it does not serve to promote the species. You get married and love your wife, how does that help you? It costs you time, money, possibly some sanity... Why do married couples cry over miscarried babies? They are just lumps of flesh, they can just get pregnant and try for another. Why do we care for the infirmed, the elderly, the mentally disabled. These are the ones that animals like lions, cheetahs, etc. attack first when feeding.

IMO, I feel the answer to these things is that there exists a God who has given us a purpose:

Micah 6:8 - He has shown you, O man, what is good, and what does the Lord require of you? To do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

We have intrinsic value given to us from a higher power. We are called to love one another, to care for the sick, defend the fatherless, mourn with those who mourn. So much more. That is my explanation for why I am not an atheist. I find too much meaning in life.

The Voice: It is the Broodwich. Forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre. Baked by Beelzebub. Slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chickens force-fed to dogs by the hands of a one-eyed madman. Cheese boiled from t

I come to the conclusion that nihilism is a direct result of atheism because, acording to atheism, we come from nothing and we end in nothing. Therefore if something begins with nothing and ends with nothing, how can "something" fill the gap in between.

Atheism is the lack of belief in a god or gods. Period. It says nothing else, like "we come from nothing." I'm not sure what you even mean by that. Can you clarify?

weasel7711 wrote:

Our lives are nothing. Existence is one gigantic perpetual machine. Nothing we do echoes into eternity. Human life is worth nothing. Your best friend's life is worth nothing. What does that bond you have with your friend matter, just get another friend, there are over 6 billion people on the earth. Odds are that you can find someone with similar views.

Our consciousness is not eternal. That's tough, but I deal with it. Human life is worth something to humans. My best friend's life is worth something to me. True I can always get new friends, but there's a lot of time invested in my old ones, and life is short.

weasel7711 wrote:

According to darwinian thought, there is no real need for things like love or sacrifice because it does not serve to promote the species. You get married and love your wife, how does that help you? It costs you time, money, possibly some sanity... Why do married couples cry over miscarried babies? They are just lumps of flesh, they can just get pregnant and try for another. Why do we care for the infirmed, the elderly, the mentally disabled. These are the ones that animals like lions, cheetahs, etc. attack first when feeding.

Wrong. Humans are social animals. Anything that makes are social bonds stronger is a benefit to our survival. This is in perfect alignment with natural selection.

weasel7711 wrote:

IMO, I feel the answer to these things is that there exists a God who has given us a purpose:

Micah 6:8 - He has shown you, O man, what is good, and what does the Lord require of you? To do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

We have intrinsic value given to us from a higher power. We are called to love one another, to care for the sick, defend the fatherless, mourn with those who mourn. So much more. That is my explanation for why I am not an atheist. I find too much meaning in life.

Once again, would you hate others, not care for the sick, etc. if god/the bible didn't tell you too? I think you're attributing things to god which have natural explanations.

I dont expect this to be taken seriously but here goes:I am a Christian, I acknowledge the existence of the Holy Spirit and Christ, through whom I live and have existence. I am not here to tell you that you are going to hell, im sure the wolves in sheeps clothing that call themselves christians have attempted to oust you will damnation already. Im not here to insult you either, im sure you have recieved your share of insults. Im here to discuss. Feel free to respond, you will find im a fairly rational thinker.

If only there were more like you.

weasel7711 wrote:

I recently viewed some of your videos on the Blasphemy Challenge on youtube. I respect athiests in the manner that they are using their logical minds that have been given to them by God, and I agree with american atheists in that there are a lot of borderline-retarded Christians out there who use the bible as an excuse to be ignorant. However, logic and faith can be excercised without being irrational.

I'll have to wish you luck.

weasel7711 wrote:

First: I believe you are misunderstanding the essence of the unforgivable sin. The blasphemy of the holy spirit is the perpetual denial of the existence of God or for the free forgiveness of sins. It seems like a waste of time since you are not really getting anywhere with denying the existence of the holy spirit. God will still forgive you if you wish.

This has been pointed out, probably even in this topic(I haven't looked at responses yet due to lack of time today). The thing is that the blasphemy challenge is two things in priority: An advertisement, and a declaration of freedom from religion. So not many of those who have taken the challenge really think it's an unforgivable sin. If there was one, they'd do that instead(unless it involved hurting people).

weasel7711 wrote:

Second: I have a rebuttal to your belief that Christians are irrational. I find it just as irrational (that is if you dont believe in any sort of creator) to believe that atoms suddenly appeared, when one of newton's laws is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

It would be. I do not know many atheists who think the universe just appeared out of nowhere however. I personally think it's always been there in some form or another.

weasel7711 wrote:

The first cause argument has never been successfully destroyed by an athiest for me, so see if you can do it.

If first cause deals with a beginning of everything, no atheist ever will. Unless he can either:
1: Break the laws of physics.
2: Split nothing into postive and negative something(theoretically possible).

weasel7711 wrote:

How do atheists explain the fact that everything in the universe must have a cause, yet there is a denial of the existence of a being that could have caused it??

Why must everything have a cause?

Going to have to split the next one up.

weasel7711 wrote:

Third: General question to any atheist out there who wants to answer it. If there is no God, no eternity, no heaven, no hell, etc.; What is your explanation for the point of existence on earth.

There isn't a point, beyond that which you make for yourself.

weasel7711 wrote:

It would seem to me that the natural inclination is to have all the sex you want, do all the drugs you want, kill whoever you feel like, and live for youself.

The first would likely lead to you having STD's and a hundred kids. I don't think that would be enjoyable. The second would depend on the drugs and how much of them you took, but could have the same result, plus other significant damage to your body. A drink of beer and a joint every week won't do much of anything; but a crack addict will be in and out of the hospital all his life. I don't think that would be enjoyable either. Killing people will just get you thrown in jail and hated. Loosing freedom would not be enjoyable. Living for yourself isn't necessarily a problem, as long as you don't sacrifice others in the process. But if you do that, they'll return the favour. So it just makes sense to leave well enough alone.

weasel7711 wrote:

Otherwise, the second inclination is to end your meaningless life.

Or you could give it meaning yourself. Make life better for the next generation, in the hope that one day we humans may surpass our stupidity.

weasel7711 wrote:

After all, there is no point to it, correct?

No intrinsic point no. That doesn't mean you can't make one though.

weasel7711 wrote:

Nothing we do here has any significance.

Probably not in the long run. But there are no guarantees.

weasel7711 wrote:

Why even have a moral code? You will not gain anything by it, you will not be condemned by it.

Morality is a societal evolutionary trait. It allows us to exist in societies. Without morals there would be anarchy.

weasel7711 wrote:

Im sure that if someone were to walk up to a close friend of yours and shoot them point blank range, (if you were a true atheist and held to the logical nihilistic beliefs that sprout from nihilism), you would have no problem with that.

Actually, I'd return the favour. I don't make friends lightly. I value those I end up as friends with. There'd have to be a pretty damn good reason for me to not return the favour.

weasel7711 wrote:

However I get the feeling that you would have a huge problem with that. Explain to me why, if, after all, we are just a mass of atoms.

I believe I did, but if not, let me know what you are unsatisfied with.

weasel7711 wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I pray God opens your eyes to his unimaginable mercy.

No problem. I hope you one day realize that life without a god hanging over your shoulder is more enjoyable and free than life with one.

Nihlio - nothing (be ready to see a lot of that word in the following writing)

I come to the conclusion that nihilism is a direct result of atheism because, acording to atheism, we come from nothing and we end in nothing.

Wrong. According to atheism, there is no god. No statement about where we come from, no statement about where we end. You added all the stuff about "nothing" yourself.

weasel7711 wrote:

Therefore if something begins with nothing and ends with nothing, how can "something" fill the gap in between. Our lives are nothing. Existence is one gigantic perpetual machine. Nothing we do echoes into eternity. Human life is worth nothing. Your best friend's life is worth nothing. What does that bond you have with your friend matter, just get another friend, there are over 6 billion people on the earth. Odds are that you can find someone with similar views.

Why does something have to have cosmic significance in order to have ANY significance? Human life is worth something to other humans because humans prefer the company of other humans. You aren't just as content with a stranger as you are with a friend because you have an established relationship with a friend. What about this is hard to understand? What about this requires god?

weasel7711 wrote:

According to darwinian thought, there is no real need for things like love or sacrifice because it does not serve to promote the species.

Wrong. The evolution of social behaviour in animals is straight Darwinism. Simple mathematics and game theory will show that cooperation is often better for the survival of the genome than strict selfishness. It often makes sense for a creature to sacrifice itself for a mate or close relative. Read some Dawkins.

weasel7711 wrote:

You get married and love your wife, how does that help you?

Are you joking? You get sex, help with money and the home and the chance to reproduce. What's not to love?

weasel7711 wrote:

It costs you time, money, possibly some sanity...

Minor annoyances in the larger scheme.

weasel7711 wrote:

Why do married couples cry over miscarried babies? They are just lumps of flesh, they can just get pregnant and try for another.

As intelligent creatures, we are different than animals in that we can mentally model future events and, to some extent, react to them as if they have already occured. A pregnant couple is excited about the future birth of their child. Having that future taken away is, to a lesser extent, emotionally similar to having the child taken away.

weasel7711 wrote:

Why do we care for the infirmed, the elderly, the mentally disabled. These are the ones that animals like lions, cheetahs, etc. attack first when feeding.

We have relationships with people that creates an emotional bond and makes us want to look after them. This is basic social behaviour. Why should the fact that they are weak affect this?

weasel7711 wrote:

IMO, I feel the answer to these things is that there exists a God who has given us a purpose:

Micah 6:8 - He has shown you, O man, what is good, and what does the Lord require of you? To do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

We have intrinsic value given to us from a higher power. We are called to love one another, to care for the sick, defend the fatherless, mourn with those who mourn. So much more. That is my explanation for why I am not an atheist. I find too much meaning in life.

As you can see, you are wrong on every single premise for this position. Your position reflects a lack of understanding of nature and social behaviour. You have also totally failed to show any requirement for god in the phenomena you describe. Think again.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown

''I come to the conclusion that nihilism is a direct result of atheism''

Well why did you do that, it's wrong.

''because, acording to atheism, we come from nothing and we end in nothing. Therefore if something begins with nothing and ends with nothing, how can "something" fill the gap in between.''

Depends what you mean by nothing. As a fetus you took a lot o fnutrition from your mother and grew in size from a couple of cells. When you die you leave behind everything you did in life and a body that decomposes or is burned.

''Human life is worth nothing. Your best friend's life is worth nothing.''

What? Only religious fanatics like suicide bombers or killers of abortion doctors think like this! If you believe there is no afterlife, and this is the only time you have, you treasure it a million-fold more than someone who thinks that whatever they do in life is forgiveable by God and they're going to heaven.

''We have intrinsic value given to us from a higher power.''

Well an atheist doesn't need an invisible friend to give life value. And what value do morally good actions have if you're just doing them to avoid punishment after death? It may be discomforting at first, but the truth often is.

Nihlio - nothing (be ready to see a lot of that word in the following writing)

I come to the conclusion that nihilism is a direct result of atheism because, acording to atheism, we come from nothing and we end in nothing. Therefore if something begins with nothing and ends with nothing, how can "something" fill the gap in between. Our lives are nothing. Existence is one gigantic perpetual machine. Nothing we do echoes into eternity. Human life is worth nothing. Your best friend's life is worth nothing. What does that bond you have with your friend matter, just get another friend, there are over 6 billion people on the earth. Odds are that you can find someone with similar views.

I think these statements sell ourselves short. Why must I have an objective authority to ascribe value to certain 'things' in my life such as a friendship? Sure my existence might mean nothing to you but why should that matter to me? It's subjective but no less meaningful to me. Because I have no religious faith does not mean that I am not in awe of the mystery that life is. That I don't appreciate things that I perceive to be beautiful. You choose to derive meaning for your life from a book written by over 40 unknown authors that claims authority. But without your faith in this book, your beleifs are just as much of 'nothing' as my own.

Quote:

According to darwinian thought, there is no real need for things like love or sacrifice because it does not serve to promote the species. You get married and love your wife, how does that help you? It costs you time, money, possibly some sanity... Why do married couples cry over miscarried babies? They are just lumps of flesh, they can just get pregnant and try for another. Why do we care for the infirmed, the elderly, the mentally disabled. These are the ones that animals like lions, cheetahs, etc. attack first when feeding.

I'm not very knowledgable on Darwin. I don't see why every atheist under the sun is assumed to be or is required to be. But judging your comments you hold that by being atheist that we suddenly are incapable of emotion. That our own life experiences are somehow removed of feelings. If I were to just try to fancy why love might be important for the human race in darwinian terms I'd posit that the support of two parents is far more beneficial to our species than one. Love being the glue that binds us together. Just a thought.

''Human life is worth nothing. Your best friend's life is worth nothing.''

What? Only religious fanatics like suicide bombers or killers of abortion doctors think like this! If you believe there is no afterlife, and this is the only time you have, you treasure it a million-fold more than someone who thinks that whatever they do in life is forgiveable by God and they're going to heaven.

Good thing I dont think like that then eh? I believe that, if it was true that there was no God, I would honestly see no point to respecting people who annoyed me or believed differenly than me. We wouldnt have been being created in the image of an all powerful creator, and thus each human life would have no worth. Therefore I wouldnt reeally be doing anything wrong in killing because there's no one to tell me what right and wrong are. I would be free to make my own moral code, and thus live by the ideal that "might makes right.

Suicide bombers and abortion clinic bombers are mentally unstable. I hope, for logics sake, that you dont attribute their insanity to all religious people. Are many christians hyppocrites? You bet they are! Are they all hyppocrites?? NO!

In response to God forgiving every sin. Yes he does, but only on the grounds of true repentance and belief. True repentance and belief implies a turning around of one's life, putting your faith in Christ to change you from the inside out, and making a daily resolution to follow Him. Christians still stumble, but we are forgiven. I submit that a man who has given his life to Christ does not have the capacity to blow up an abortion clinic. If his will has been transformed to the will of Christ, he will do the work of God, not the work of Satan. If human beings had the intrinsic ability to be perfect, I submit that we wouldnt be needing to have wars over who's belief is correct.

Romans 6:1-2 NASB wrote:

1(A)What shall we say then? Are we to (B)continue in sin so that grace may increase?

2(C)May it never be! How shall we who (D)died to sin still live in it?

That being said, new question. This isnt a loaded question, i'm not going to mentally rape you with a bunch of hidden questions. I just want to know how people think:

Where do you (whoever responds to this) as an atheist feel your moral code comes from?

The Voice: It is the Broodwich. Forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre. Baked by Beelzebub. Slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chickens force-fed to dogs by the hands of a one-eyed madman. Cheese boiled from t

Good thing I dont think like that then eh? I believe that, if it was true that there was no God, I would honestly see no point to respecting people who annoyed me or believed differenly than me. We wouldnt have been being created in the image of an all powerful creator, and thus each human life would have no worth. Therefore I wouldnt reeally be doing anything wrong in killing because there's no one to tell me what right and wrong are. I would be free to make my own moral code, and thus live by the ideal that "might makes right.

So are you telling me that without your christian leash that you would be out somewhere killing and raping people? I think this might be due to the christian belief that deep inside we are a bunch of no good evil doers. Something that I and my boy socrates reject. Hell I wonder how could all the cultures who have had no contact or outright rejected christianity ever even survived, right? Cause surely without some sort of book to define morality for us and since we are incapable of abstracting it ourselves. That all of society would be reduced to some all out carnal blood fest.

Just because we see cause and effect in the universe doesn't mean the universe itself needs a cause.

I was an Christian for 18 years. If God exists, he's had plenty of chances to open my eyes, and he can do it at any time.

Well as for you first comment, if the universe doesn't need a cause itself, then WHY DOES GOD NEED A CAUSE? thats one thing i read over and over on this site. Who created God, why would God exist? How did God just exist? Thanks for helping show that not EVERYTHING has a Cause to exist...God exist b/c its GOD..he doesnt need a reason to exist nor a creator.

And as for the part you were a Christian for 18 years.... WELL lets see for 1.) Any TRUE follower of Christ will not stray away from God forever, sooner or later he will come back. Somewhere in the Bible..i believe 1 John, not sure tho, it says that if someone turns from God and never turns back EVER, then he was not part of the Body of Christ in the first place. SOOO if you ARE saved then GOOD cuz someday you will turn back. 2.) If you were a TRUE Christian, like had a relationship w/Jesus christ DAILY, lived a life that Glorified Christ in the things you said and did AND you did your best to turn away from sin THEN God would have been evident in your life everyday.

So i ALSO pray that God opens the eyes of the people who are blinded to Gods mercy, grace, and love. And also that he softens their hearts from this hatred they have towards him.

As far as living a life that meaningful just live it for yourself...well wats the point in that? you die and nothing happens to you? Id rather live a life pleasing to the Lord and spend ETERNITY in heaven then live like there is no god do as i please & die and spend eternity in hell burning forever. but thats just me. God is too awesome and real to my life for me to just deny Him. And he is using me everyday to do what all Christians are called to do. the number one purpose, "The Great Commission" to tell the lost about his trusth and Glory. I will continue to do that til the day I die, because i dont live for myself i live for GOD.

There is no such thing as blind faith. Blind faith is simply faith in faith. Faith itself is nothing, it lies in the OBJECT OF THE FAITH! IT IS IN GOD THAT MY FAITH LIES! I will not be a "cop out faith" Christian.

Good thing I dont think like that then eh? I believe that, if it was true that there was no God, I would honestly see no point to respecting people who annoyed me or believed differenly than me.

This is a flaw in your character caused by your religious upbringing. I'm sorry, but there's no other way to put it. People who are not saddled with faith from a young age can see many, many reasons to respect others without being told to by anyone, including god.

weasel7711 wrote:

We wouldnt have been being created in the image of an all powerful creator, and thus each human life would have no worth.

Why? Why must we be connected to an all-powerful creator in order to have worth? I find worth in lots of people and I don't believe in a creator at all!

weasel7711 wrote:

Therefore I wouldnt reeally be doing anything wrong in killing because there's no one to tell me what right and wrong are. I would be free to make my own moral code, and thus live by the ideal that "might makes right.

The fact is, you are free to do that and many people do. However, simple rationality would dictate that living by "might makes right" is a dangerous approach, since everyone will sooner or later meet someone who has more might than they have.

I might also point out that refraining from killing people because you fear eternal torment is not morality - it is pure self-preservation. From everything you have said on this thread so far I would come to the conclusion that you are a deeply immoral person.

weasel7711 wrote:

Suicide bombers and abortion clinic bombers are mentally unstable. I hope, for logics sake, that you dont attribute their insanity to all religious people. Are many christians hyppocrites? You bet they are! Are they all hyppocrites?? NO!

No one can show that cigarettes cause lung cancer. Science has been unable to find a causal link, and cannot explain exactly why it occurs. Yet everyone believes that smoking causes lung cancer. Why? Because studies show that people who smoke get lung cancer at much higher rates than everyone else.

People who blow themselves up in markets and shoot abortion doctors are always religious. We can't prove that this is why they do it, because we can't read their minds or figure out how they made their decisions. We do know that they aren't always insane. We also know that many insane people never do these things. The only common element linking the people who commit these crimes is their belief in a god.

So we know that religion causes suicide bombing and abortion-doctor-shooting in the same way that we know cigarettes cause cancer.

weasel7711 wrote:

In response to God forgiving every sin. Yes he does, but only on the grounds of true repentance and belief. True repentance and belief implies a turning around of one's life, putting your faith in Christ to change you from the inside out, and making a daily resolution to follow Him. Christians still stumble, but we are forgiven. I submit that a man who has given his life to Christ does not have the capacity to blow up an abortion clinic. If his will has been transformed to the will of Christ, he will do the work of God, not the work of Satan. If human beings had the intrinsic ability to be perfect, I submit that we wouldnt be needing to have wars over who's belief is correct.

Romans 6:1-2 NASB wrote:

1(A)What shall we say then? Are we to (B)continue in sin so that grace may increase?

2(C)May it never be! How shall we who (D)died to sin still live in it?

Pure "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Who are you to say that the abortion-doctor-killers and suicide bombers haven't accepted jesus (or mohommed) into their hearts? How do you know? Can you read minds? Are there any circumstances under which you would admit that a true christian could do bad things? If not, I submit that you aren't arguing in good faith.

weasel7711 wrote:

That being said, new question. This isnt a loaded question, i'm not going to mentally rape you with a bunch of hidden questions. I just want to know how people think:

Where do you (whoever responds to this) as an atheist feel your moral code comes from?

I believe that, if it was true that there was no God, I would honestly see no point to respecting people who annoyed me or believed differenly than me.

Are you that antisocial?

weasel7711 wrote:

We wouldnt have been being created in the image of an all powerful creator, and thus each human life would have no worth.

That's the only reason human life has value? Have you ever had a pet? They weren't created in the image of God. By your reasoning they didn't have any worth. So why did you keep them, if you had a one?

weasel7711 wrote:

Therefore I wouldnt reeally be doing anything wrong in killing because there's no one to tell me what right and wrong are. I would be free to make my own moral code, and thus live by the ideal that "might makes right.

It wouldn't be wrong by some cosmic absolute standard, because there isn't one. But it would be wrong to humans because murder works against our survival. There are those who live by might makes right, and they are despised and hated.

weasel7711 wrote:

Where do you (whoever responds to this) as an atheist feel your moral code comes from?

I'm no expert on this, but it comes from human societies. Some evidence for this is that people's sense of morals varies greatly over time and cultures. It's true that some values are universal, e.g. murder is wrong, but these values are essential to survival. A lot of what God commands, or lets, the Hebrews do in the Old Testament would offend our sense of morals today. Christians have to go to great lengths to try to smooth over this. This is a contradiction with an absolute, God given standard sense of morality in humans.

I dont expect this to be taken seriously but here goes:I am a Christian, I acknowledge the existence of the Holy Spirit and Christ, through whom I live and have existence. I am not here to tell you that you are going to hell, im sure the wolves in sheeps clothing that call themselves christians have attempted to oust you will damnation already. Im not here to insult you either, im sure you have recieved your share of insults. Im here to discuss. Feel free to respond, you will find im a fairly rational thinker.

I recently viewed some of your videos on the Blasphemy Challenge on youtube. I respect athiests in the manner that they are using their logical minds that have been given to them by God, and I agree with american atheists in that there are a lot of borderline-retarded Christians out there who use the bible as an excuse to be ignorant. However, logic and faith can be excercised without being irrational.

First:I believe you are misunderstanding the essence of the unforgivable sin. The blasphemy of the holy spirit is the perpetual denial of the existence of God or for the free forgiveness of sins. It seems like a waste of time since you are not really getting anywhere with denying the existence of the holy spirit. God will still forgive you if you wish.

Second:I have a rebuttal to your belief that Christians are irrational. I find it just as irrational (that is if you dont believe in any sort of creator) to believe that atoms suddenly appeared, when one of newton's laws is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. The first cause argument has never been successfully destroyed by an athiest for me, so see if you can do it. How do atheists explain the fact that everything in the universe must have a cause, yet there is a denial of the existence of a being that could have caused it??

Third:General question to any atheist out there who wants to answer it. If there is no God, no eternity, no heaven, no hell, etc.; What is your explanation for the point of existence on earth. It would seem to me that the natural inclination is to have all the sex you want, do all the drugs you want, kill whoever you feel like, and live for youself. Otherwise, the second inclination is to end your meaningless life. After all, there is no point to it, correct? Nothing we do here has any significance. Why even have a moral code? You will not gain anything by it, you will not be condemned by it. Im sure that if someone were to walk up to a close friend of yours and shoot them point blank range, (if you were a true atheist and held to the logical nihilistic beliefs that sprout from nihilism), you would have no problem with that. However I get the feeling that you would have a huge problem with that. Explain to me why, if, after all, we are just a mass of atoms.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I pray God opens your eyes to his unimaginable mercy.

The following is not an insult and should not be taken as one. It is a blunt criticism of the claim you made and should not be taken as a personal attack on you............

"A painting has a painter?"

So if a intwined pile of kelp washes up on shore does that mean Posiden did it? Or could it be uncognitive ocean currents and natural uncoginative errosion of the seabed floor?

You dont really believe that the ocean has a brain and said, "Hey I am going to pull that kelp out of the seabed and plant it on the beach"

You are allowing your feelings of "awe" to rule you and dont take into account the awsome distructive forces of nature along with it.

If everything has a disigner then Aids and anthrax and ecoli and cancer and skitzophrenia and earthquakes, black holes all are created by the same thing. You want to atribute all these distructive things to your sky daddy?

I think it is absurd to stick an invisable puppetmaster into the mix when science mesures the world just fine. Atoms are not tiny magical lepricons nor is the universe a giant brain.

All sticking a diety into the equation does is dumb down society and sets them up to become blind to possible answers. What we dont know does not default to Allah/Yahwey/Jesus or Superman. We simply dont know and using ancient fairy tales to explain modern life when we have science is not only unusefull but dangerous to progress.

Meteorologist, not buddhist monks, meteorologists, not Clerics, metorologists, not preists....are the ones who know this planet is warming up.

They allerted society to the problem and insted it seems more important to vote a theocrat into office than it is to solve that problem that will effect everyone. It is more important that a zeolot blow up civilians than it is to worry about world polition. It is more important religios people to say, "This is mine because daddy said so" than it is to realize that humans are humans and in the end all want the same things.

Would you find it credible to call that "painter" Vishnu? Would you find it credible to call that "Painter" Allah? Of course not and you'd be right. Now apply that logic in rejecting the other claims to your claim as well.

But you never bother to ask yourself, "Does there need to be a painter"?

Some one sold you the idea that there had to be a creator. You baught it because you'd never been exposed to the reasons and science that points to the oposite.

Basically you are allowing your natural non-magical emotions allow you to believe this because you want to believe it because it makes you feel good.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

I'm not quite sure where everyone is getting the idea that I act morally because I fear eternal torment.

1. My view of Hell is eternal separation from the creator. Heaven is eternal dwelling with God, enjoying his Glory. Hell is not a physical place where a bunch of red guys stick you with hot pokers. Hell is the existence with God completely turning his face away from you. Complete banishment from the source of all Joy. God gives us what we want. If we want Him, we seek Him and find Him when we seek Him with all of our heart. If we dont want him, we reject him, and he rejects us. This is hell: God's eternal rejection. Another common misconception of hell is that Satan will be ruling in hell. Untrue, Satan will be banished along with the rest of those who reject God's love.

2. I act morally because I see intrinsic value in humans given to us by God. Nothing has value unless it is given value by something else. We are all created in the image of God. He has designed each and every one of us uniquely, as we can see through DNA. I do not believe in abortion because I believe that little fetus is a living individual. I do not believe in the killing of people with mental of physical disorders (much like the Nazis) because their quality of life is less than us. They are still worth something. I dont believe in the bombing of abortion clinics because the doctors, while sinners along with myself, are still God's creation and he is the only one who is worthy to judge. I dont believe in giving up on the atheist population of the world just because they sometimes mock my God or myself. God wants all men to be saved and comes to a knowledge of the truth. I will not give up on you.

3. My love for God is not spurned on the fear of punishment. Drawing a parallel to Office Space. That will only make someone work just hard enough not to go to hell. My love for God is based on the fact that he first loved me. Yes it's selfish, but thats what humanity is. God loved me enough to take the form of a human, take on sin that I commit daily, and be crucified for it (one of the most horriffic deaths immaginable). I love God because he first loved me.

The Voice: It is the Broodwich. Forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre. Baked by Beelzebub. Slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chickens force-fed to dogs by the hands of a one-eyed madman. Cheese boiled from t

BringOnYourChallenge, the challenge is to make a video of you denying the Holy Spirit and then post it on youtube.com. So are you going to take the challenge up like your handle suggests?

BringOnYourChallenge wrote:

Well as for you first comment, if the universe doesn't need a cause itself, then WHY DOES GOD NEED A CAUSE? thats one thing i read over and over on this site. Who created God, why would God exist? How did God just exist? Thanks for helping show that not EVERYTHING has a Cause to exist...God exist b/c its GOD..he doesnt need a reason to exist nor a creator.

You're distorting what I said.

The theist claims that the universe must have a cause because of certain properties the universe has, e.g. order, complexity, intelligent & creative life, etc. God also holds these properties, but the theist never finds any problem believing God just existed. When we ask "Who created God?" we're trying to point this fact out. We're asking you why don't you take your argument further.

I was saying we see cause and effect inside the universe, but claiming that that the entire universe need a cause is a different sort of claim, mainly because the cause is outside the universe. I'm not saying that the universe has always existed, just that that line of reasoning, i.e. extrapolating cause and effect in the universe to saying the universe had a cause, is needs justification.

And as for the part you were a Christian for 18 years.... WELL lets see for 1.) Any TRUE follower of Christ will not stray away from God forever, sooner or later he will come back. Somewhere in the Bible..i believe 1 John, not sure tho, it says that if someone turns from God and never turns back EVER, then he was not part of the Body of Christ in the first place. SOOO if you ARE saved then GOOD cuz someday you will turn back. 2.) If you were a TRUE Christian, like had a relationship w/Jesus christ DAILY, lived a life that Glorified Christ in the things you said and did AND you did your best to turn away from sin THEN God would have been evident in your life everyday.

This is just special pleading.

BringOnYourChallenge wrote:

As far as living a life that meaningful just live it for yourself...well wats the point in that? you die and nothing happens to you?

There's no point really. I imagine after I die I'll be buried. This doesn't mean my life is not worth living.

BringOnYourChallenge wrote:

Id rather live a life pleasing to the Lord and spend ETERNITY in heaven then live like there is no god do as i please & die and spend eternity in hell burning forever. but thats just me.

This reeks of Pascal's wager.

BringOnYourChallenge wrote:

God is too awesome and real to my life for me to just deny Him. And he is using me everyday to do what all Christians are called to do. the number one purpose, "The Great Commission" to tell the lost about his trusth and Glory. I will continue to do that til the day I die, because i dont live for myself i live for GOD.

An appeal to religious experience. BTW, I don't devalue your experiences. I understand that they have meaning to you. But they don't give you a monopoly on truth.

I'm not quite sure where everyone is getting the idea that I act morally because I fear eternal torment.

1. My view of Hell is eternal separation from the creator. Heaven is eternal dwelling with God, enjoying his Glory. Hell is not a physical place where a bunch of red guys stick you with hot pokers. Hell is the existence with God completely turning his face away from you. Complete banishment from the source of all Joy. God gives us what we want. If we want Him, we seek Him and find Him when we seek Him with all of our heart. If we dont want him, we reject him, and he rejects us. This is hell: God's eternal rejection. Another common misconception of hell is that Satan will be ruling in hell. Untrue, Satan will be banished along with the rest of those who reject God's love.

But then you act morally because you expect a reward from God. This is not morality, it's kissing ass. Anyway, if you don't think hell is eternal punishment, then you're ignoring what the Bible states. A lake of fire sounds a little more intense than just separation from God.

weasel7711 wrote:

Nothing has value unless it is given value by something else.

Why?

weasel7711 wrote:

We are all created in the image of God. He has designed each and every one of us uniquely, as we can see through DNA.

But then you act morally because you expect a reward from God. This is not morality, it's kissing ass. Anyway, if you don't think hell is eternal punishment, then you're ignoring what the Bible states. A lake of fire sounds a little more intense than just separation from God.

It appears that you didnt read, and/or pay attention to the other two points I was trying to convey: here they are again

weasel7711 wrote:

2. I act morally because I see intrinsic value in humans given to us by God. Nothing has value unless it is given value by something else. We are all created in the image of God. He has designed each and every one of us uniquely, as we can see through DNA. I do not believe in abortion because I believe that little fetus is a living individual. I do not believe in the killing of people with mental of physical disorders (much like the Nazis) because their quality of life is less than us. They are still worth something. I dont believe in the bombing of abortion clinics because the doctors, while sinners along with myself, are still God's creation and he is the only one who is worthy to judge. I dont believe in giving up on the atheist population of the world just because they sometimes mock my God or myself. God wants all men to be saved and comes to a knowledge of the truth. I will not give up on you.

3. My love for God is not spurned on the fear of punishment. Drawing a parallel to Office Space. That will only make someone work just hard enough not to go to hell. My love for God is based on the fact that he first loved me. Yes it's selfish, but thats what humanity is. God loved me enough to take the form of a human, take on sin that I commit daily, and be crucified for it (one of the most horriffic deaths immaginable). I love God because he first loved me.

Second, the bible is notorious for allegory, metaphors, and similes, though we should not forget that it isnt ALL like this. Most of Revelation and Jesus' parables (where this reference occurs most) were metaphors or allegories. It is used to describe the intense anguish and sorrow and regret you will feel for rejecting the thing that offered you everlasting life.

Quote:

Why?

Consider this. I will say, for arguments sake, there is no god or supernatural being. How do you define value for a human life? Is it the majority opinion? Is it given by some other more powerful being? Is it subjective and thus determined individually or by each society? If it is given by power than it can change and it is determined by either a majority or the strongest. If it is subjective, it can change. Society cannot function on morals and values that are subjective to each person. Eventually you will run into eachother's morals and there is conflict. So how then do you resolve that conflict?

Subjective morality argument falls apart the moment I do something that violates someone else's morals. My morals are my morals, yours are yours. If my morals say it is OK to kill people, its OK for me, because they are my morals. But killing is wrong! According to you, not according to me. Subjective morality is irrational and illogical.

Quote:

Hmm, too bad for identical twins.

True they may have the same DNA, but not exactly the same gene expression. Which is why they do not always have the same personalities and can sometimes be more succeptible to certain diseases such as cancer, etc (source). And thus, are unique beings.

The Voice: It is the Broodwich. Forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre. Baked by Beelzebub. Slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chickens force-fed to dogs by the hands of a one-eyed madman. Cheese boiled from t

Nihlio - nothing (be ready to see a lot of that word in the following writing)

I come to the conclusion that nihilism is a direct result of atheism because, acording to atheism, we come from nothing and we end in nothing. Therefore if something begins with nothing and ends with nothing, how can "something" fill the gap in between. Our lives are nothing.

if human life is a transient, infintesimally small duration of a soul's existence before it leaves heaven (do souls leave heaven?) at conception/birth/you know...and reenters heaven (or hell depending on what you believe) at death, do you think nihilism could be a consequence of Christianity too? That's what a lot of Christians say, that there might be suffering now, but you shouldn't worry because you'll go to heaven some day. In that sense, what's the value of life, because it seems like you're just waiting for death. To take it to the extreme, psychologically disturbed mothers have often killed their own children with the justification that they're sending them to heaven without the worry of suffering or hell in their future lives.

37And He said to him, " '(D)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

38"This is the great and foremost commandment.

39"The second is like it, '(E)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

40"(F)On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Your turn.

The Voice: It is the Broodwich. Forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre. Baked by Beelzebub. Slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chickens force-fed to dogs by the hands of a one-eyed madman. Cheese boiled from t

I'm not quite sure where everyone is getting the idea that I act morally because I fear eternal torment.

1. My view of Hell is eternal separation from the creator. Heaven is eternal dwelling with God, enjoying his Glory. Hell is not a physical place where a bunch of red guys stick you with hot pokers. Hell is the existence with God completely turning his face away from you. Complete banishment from the source of all Joy. God gives us what we want. If we want Him, we seek Him and find Him when we seek Him with all of our heart. If we dont want him, we reject him, and he rejects us. This is hell: God's eternal rejection. Another common misconception of hell is that Satan will be ruling in hell. Untrue, Satan will be banished along with the rest of those who reject God's love.

Redefining hell doesn't change the concept. There is an undesireable consequence to offending god. You wish to avoid this consequence, so you act according to god's will, without question. This is not morality, it's self-interest.

weasel7711 wrote:

2. I act morally because I see intrinsic value in humans given to us by God. Nothing has value unless it is given value by something else.

Sure. So humans have value because other humans value them.

weasel7711 wrote:

We are all created in the image of God. He has designed each and every one of us uniquely, as we can see through DNA.

DNA is, of course, excellent evidence that there is NOT a designer. If god designs each of us in the womb, why bother with this cumbersome, complicated, error-prone mechanism? DNA shows us how we are really designed, and that no god is necessary.

weasel7711 wrote:

I do not believe in abortion because I believe that little fetus is a living individual.

How does this pointless non sequiteur relate to the topic at hand?

weasel7711 wrote:

I do not believe in the killing of people with mental of physical disorders (much like the Nazis) because their quality of life is less than us. They are still worth something.

Strange that I feel exactly the same way, yet hold no belief in god. Is it possible that this moral intuition comes from somewhere else?

weasel7711 wrote:

I dont believe in the bombing of abortion clinics because the doctors, while sinners along with myself, are still God's creation and he is the only one who is worthy to judge.

At least you are consistent in this, unlike some of your fellow christians who have seemed to have assigned god's judgement function to themselves.

weasel7711 wrote:

I dont believe in giving up on the atheist population of the world just because they sometimes mock my God or myself. God wants all men to be saved and comes to a knowledge of the truth. I will not give up on you.

And we won't give up on you, weasel. We cling to hope that sooner or later you will subject your beliefs to the same rational scrutiny you use in your everyday life.

weasel7711 wrote:

3. My love for God is not spurned on the fear of punishment. Drawing a parallel to Office Space. That will only make someone work just hard enough not to go to hell. My love for God is based on the fact that he first loved me. Yes it's selfish, but thats what humanity is. God loved me enough to take the form of a human, take on sin that I commit daily, and be crucified for it (one of the most horriffic deaths immaginable). I love God because he first loved me.

I can't deny the emotive power of your fantasy, but I'm afraid I still have to point out that you have no evidence for any of this.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown

You wish to avoid this consequence, so you act according to god's will, without question

You merely assume that I have not questioned. While I was raised in a Christian home I was not indoctrinated with tyrannical teachings and threats of being sent to hell if I was a bad boy. I went to church most sundays, was read bible stories as a child and did other normal every day average American child things. I honestly didnt think much of God until middle school and high school. I went to a public school where I was taugh the theory of evolution. I found it interesting and decided to check the facts myself. The more I learned about biology, and chemistry, and physics pointed me more and more toward some sort of designer.

The evidence that brought me to the conclusion of a creator consisted of Aquinas' theories for the existence of God, the fact of irreducible complexity (which shatter's darwin's theory), and an overall thought of intelligent design. I absolutely cannot believe in something so out of this world that purely by mere randomness life (in a fine tuned environment) was created and is sustained. Inconceivable.

And do not assume that I am a literal 6 day creationist. Ill point that out right now.

Tilberian wrote:

This is not morality, it's self-interest.

You seem to not have much knowledge of Christianity. I wont even go into how selfless Christ (whom Christians are called to be reflections of) was. If you want to know, go read the Gospels and tell me Christ was a selfish man. (Whether he existed or not)

Tilberian wrote:

Sure. So humans have value because other humans value them.

Much like the "documentary" The God Who Wasn't There, you take things out of context and make them say what you want them to say.

I said: "I see intrinsic value in humans given to us by God."

What part of that looks like: "I see intrinsic value in humans given to them by other humans"???

Tilberian wrote:

DNA is, of course, excellent evidence that there is NOT a designer. If god designs each of us in the womb, why bother with this cumbersome, complicated, error-prone mechanism? DNA shows us how we are really designed, and that no god is necessary.

Once again, you assume too much. God is the author of all matter, and thus is the author of DNA.

Tilberian wrote:

How does this pointless non sequiteur relate to the topic at hand?

I believe the topic at hand was the value of human life. It directly relates to it.

Tilberian wrote:

Strange that I feel exactly the same way, yet hold no belief in god. Is it possible that this moral intuition comes from somewhere else?

The fact that you believe in something does not make it exist not does it make it cease to exist. My niece believes in Santa Clause, does that mean he exists? If I choose not to believe in the existence of the planet Mars, does that mean it doesn't exist?

I believe that the fact that you have a moral intuition is that God has made it an intrinsic part of humanity. Otherwise, please answer your own question for me, where does your moral intuition come from? And what happens if someone violates it? What happens if someone else's moral intuition is incompatible with yours???

Tilberium wrote:

I can't deny the emotive power of your fantasy, but I'm afraid I still have to point out that you have no evidence for any of this.

Maybe I shall work on putting a case for the existence and the diety of Christ. But in order for that to work I would have to get you to agree on the existence of a God, then on the existence of the God of the Old Testament. I have a life outside of this forum and schoolwork to be done in the mean time.

I apologize if any of this sounded like a personal attack, that is by no means what I am trying to do.

The Voice: It is the Broodwich. Forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre. Baked by Beelzebub. Slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chickens force-fed to dogs by the hands of a one-eyed madman. Cheese boiled from t

It appears that you didnt read, and/or pay attention to the other two points I was trying to convey: here they are again...I act morally because I see intrinsic value in humans given to us by God.

I did read your post, but took your bit about hell the wrong way.

weasel7711 wrote:

Consider this. I will say, for arguments sake, there is no god or supernatural being. How do you define value for a human life? Is it the majority opinion? Is it given by some other more powerful being? Is it subjective and thus determined individually or by each society?

I have stated earlier that I think it is determined by society. I'm not a sociologist, but it's pretty evident that different societies hold to different values.

weasel7711 wrote:

If it is given by power than it can change and it is determined by either a majority or the strongest. If it is subjective, it can change. Society cannot function on morals and values that are subjective to each person. Eventually you will run into eachother's morals and there is conflict. So how then do you resolve that conflict?

I don't really think morals very drastically from person to person within a society that much, at least locally. Yes, differing moral beliefs lead to conflict. If I knew how to resolve the conflicts, I'd tell everyone. That's a tough question.

weasel7711 wrote:

Subjective morality argument falls apart the moment I do something that violates someone else's morals. My morals are my morals, yours are yours. If my morals say it is OK to kill people, its OK for me, because they are my morals. But killing is wrong! According to you, not according to me. Subjective morality is irrational and illogical.

That's why morals work on the level of a society not at a personal level. The reason murder is wrong because it's a detriment to the survival of a society. The sort of subjective morality you're writing about is irrational, but your talking about antisocial, psychopath sort of behavior.

I wish I could provide more cogent arguments, but I haven't studied this systematically. Yet another thing to research.

I appreciate your non-hostility and willingness to actually engage in a conversation, unlike some on this forum.

The Voice: It is the Broodwich. Forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre. Baked by Beelzebub. Slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chickens force-fed to dogs by the hands of a one-eyed madman. Cheese boiled from t

hi, i hope you don't take my comments above about the possible consequences of Christianity as hostile. This is one of the aspects of Christianity which scares me, the fact that people interpret the Bible in such a way that ending the lives of one's own children seems to be a rational conclusion if one wants to prevent them from suffering on earth and eternal suffering in hell.

I was not speaking of you when I mentioned the hostility, I appreciate your question

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if human life is a transient, infintesimally small duration of a soul's existence before it leaves heaven (do souls leave heaven?) at conception/birth/you know...and reenters heaven (or hell depending on what you believe) at death, do you think nihilism could be a consequence of Christianity too? That's what a lot of Christians say, that there might be suffering now, but you shouldn't worry because you'll go to heaven some day. In that sense, what's the value of life, because it seems like you're just waiting for death. To take it to the extreme, psychologically disturbed mothers have often killed their own children with the justification that they're sending them to heaven without the worry of suffering or hell in their future lives.

I am honestly not sure what happens to souls before earth nor can I be sure of what heaven exactly is like, since all I have experienced is earth. I believe in a human soul, mainly because of Descarte's statement "Cogito ergo sum" I think therefore I am. I am not a machine of random atoms which was put together by mere chance. I have a soul that can identify the think rationally and philisophically, acknowledge my own existence, and can imagine the eternal, a huge distinction between us and our supposed primate relatives.

I believe one who is compelled to believe in Christianity COULD take it to the point of nihilism, but they would be missing the commandments of Christ. In the same way an atheist could take atheism to the point of radical environmentalism or to an insane level of darwinism (killing the weak in order to ensure the survival of the species). To love thy neighbor as thyself, to honor God above all else, and to take the gospel out to every nation. Paul states in his letter to the church in Philippi: For me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. He realized that to die and be with God is a great thing, but we all have a calling on earth to serve out fellow man through love and to bring them to the truth.

There are exremists in everything. In religion, in non-religion, in atheism, in christianity, in islam. I dont think religion is the cause of the world's problems (as many on this forum tend to suggest with their signatures and avatars). I believe it is an intrinsic sickness of humanity that is the cause of wars and bombings and terrorism, etc.

The Voice: It is the Broodwich. Forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre. Baked by Beelzebub. Slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chickens force-fed to dogs by the hands of a one-eyed madman. Cheese boiled from t

I have a rebuttal to your belief that Christians are irrational. I find it just as irrational (that is if you dont believe in any sort of creator) to believe that atoms suddenly appeared

1) Whether or not people who believe that are irrational, that is NOT a rebuttal to the claim that Christians are irrational.

2) Why do you think we believe atoms suddenly appeared? Do you actually know the scientific theory of how atoms formed? I wonder if you do.

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, when one of newton's laws is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

Ah ha, I was right; you don't know the theory. You are arguing against a straw man. Find out our positions BEFORE you start criticizing your misunderstandings of them.

BTW, it is not one of Newton's laws, it's one of the laws of thermodynamics. Again, educate yourself.

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The first cause argument has never been successfully destroyed by an athiest for me

You may not have seen it destroyed, or you may not have understood the logic of its counterarguments, but I assure you it has been destroyed over and over and over.

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How do atheists explain the fact that everything in the universe must have a cause,

You claim it is a fact. In this forum, you must back claims with sound and valid logic or evidence if you expect anyone to agree with you. Prove that the universe must have a cause. There is no such logical proof or evidence.

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If there is no God, no eternity, no heaven, no hell, etc.; What is your explanation for the point of existence on earth.

By 'point' I assume you mean purpose. Let me ask you this: What is YOUR explanation for the point of existence on earth? Next: What is the point of God's existence?

The fact is, you do not know the ultimate point of existence, and neither do I. You claim it has something to do with God, but you don't know God's purposes either, so ultimately you just don't know (not to mention that you'd have to prove God exists in the first place). Why do you feel compelled to make up esoteric reasons for existence? Can't you be satisfied with 'I don't know?'

More specifically, we here can choose our own purpose on this planet, so why should we need some fantasy 'ultimate' purpose? Another question: There are countless planets that humans will NEVER be able to visit due to the expansion of the universe. What is the purpose of those planets? Really, think about this and try to answer it. If you can't answer it, then you clearly don't know the point of existence either, so asking an atheist to answer it is ... pointless.

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It would seem to me that the natural inclination is to have all the sex you want, do all the drugs you want, kill whoever you feel like, and live for youself.

Really? So how come the 4 billion people on the planet who are NOT Christian do NOT do these things you CLAIM (without evidence I might add) are human nature?

The only reason you think this is human nature is because you've been BRAINWASHED by your religion to believe that humans are depraved by original sin. There is no evidence to support the notion that humans are naturally antisocial. In fact, there are mountains of evidence that humans are naturally social. We evolved that way because of the natural advantages it gave us in our ecological niche.

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Otherwise, the second inclination is to end your meaningless life.

Why should I do that? Just because there is no pre-existing 'ultimate' meaning for my life does not mean that there is NO meaning for my life. That's a False Dichotomy.

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After all, there is no point to it, correct?

Incorrect. Again, you are looking through your blurry Christ-goggles and see the world through the filter of biblical dogma. The point to my life is the point I choose for it and the point I strive for it. I have NO need for anyone outside of myself to choose/set/force me to take on their purpose. I choose freely what the purpose of my life is. What is the purpose of your life? What is the purpose of God's life?

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Nothing we do here has any significance.

Maybe not to you, with your Christ-goggles on, but what I do here is definitely significant to myself, my family, friends, colleagues, etc.

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Why even have a moral code?

Moral codes are useful. Some moreso than others.

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Im sure that if someone were to walk up to a close friend of yours and shoot them point blank range, (if you were a true atheist and held to the logical nihilistic beliefs that sprout from nihilism), you would have no problem with that.

Straw man. A true atheist need not be a nihilist. In fact, the number of nihilists in the entire world is very close to 0. Atheists simply do not believe in god. That is all. ANYTHING ELSE you assume an atheist to be is because of your religious brainwashing.

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However I get the feeling that you would have a huge problem with that. Explain to me why, if, after all, we are just a mass of atoms.

Another false dichotomy. We are not JUST a mass of atoms, we are ALSO human beings. Human beings have evolved to be social and have social emotions. There is your answer.

In order for that creator being to exist, it would have to exist outside the real of physics.

In other words, you're saying it must be supernatural. I agree.

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Therefore I dont think that people who believe in the existence of a God should be looked down upon because its just as rational as believing that a painting has a painter.

Believing in the supernatural is irrational because there's no evidence of the supernatural. Believing a painting has a painter is rational because we have evidence of painters and their paintings.

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You see evidence, you know it couldnt have just appeared.

False dichotomy. The universe need not have 'just appeared'. It may have always existed.

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Im sure you could be perfectly happy with sleeping with prostitutes and robbing banks. You get all the sex and money you want.

Until you get tossed in jail, at which point you get all the sex you don't want.

But more importantly, you are missing a big point. It's not just fear of punishment, we simply don't want to do these things because in the long run it is to our personal detriment, and there are much better ways to be happy. Evolution has endowed us with social emotions such as compassion and guilt because these emotions confer an advantage on us, allowing us to act in large groups to accomplish things that several individuals alone could not accomplish.

I come to the conclusion that nihilism is a direct result of atheism because, acording to atheism, we come from nothing and we end in nothing.

As others have pointed out, your reasoning is fallacious. More of your propagandist brainwashing.

But I'd like to address something here. The foundation of my worldview is pragmatism, the belief that we should accept as true those things which are most useful. Pragmatism is opposed to nihilism, which is the belief that nothing can be known. Nearly everyone on the planet is inherently a pragmatist, even if they only hold it as a hidden assumption. Since my entire worldview is well-supported by pragmatism, why should I bother with Christian faithism? (Hint, to convince me, you'll have to show that faith is useful.)

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Our lives are nothing.

Nope. Life is useful.

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Existence is one gigantic perpetual machine.

Even if it is, so what? The fact that life exists makes this perpetual machine the most amazing and wonderful thing imaginable. To think, from such simple beginnings such incredible wonder has emerged. This is a far more exciting vision than your petty god of the bible.

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Nothing we do echoes into eternity.

Actually, that remains up to us. Our cultures already 'echo' beyond the lifetime of a single individual. The contribution I make to society today could conceivably last for eternity if we ascend out of the solar system to explore the rest of the universe.

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Human life is worth nothing.

It is worth something to me, so your claim has been disproved.

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Your best friend's life is worth nothing.

It does to me.

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What does that bond you have with your friend matter

It matters to me because it is part of me and my emotional life.

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According to darwinian thought, there is no real need for things like love or sacrifice because it does not serve to promote the species.

WRONG. Find anywhere that Darwin or evolution teaches that nonsense. You are exhibiting your brainwashing again. Why don't you actually study evolution before you try to debunk it?

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You get married and love your wife, how does that help you?

Like I said, study evolution. One obvious advantage of marriage is to have and raise children, a prerequisite for the survival of the species. If you don't see that, you are as hopeless as Todd Friel.

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IMO, I feel the answer to these things is that there exists a God who has given us a purpose:

Why should we accept God's purpose, even if he does exist? Again, what is god's purpose? If you don't know what god's purpose is, then you CANNOT know your own ultimate purpose.

Let me ask you this: How do you know that God is not evil? What if there is no god and only Satan. Satan wrote the bible and invented a good God-character in order to deceive people into worshipping Satan's bible. You believe that Satan is the ultimate deceiver, right? So how do you know you haven't been deceived by Satan? What if that feeling in your heart that you think is Jesus or the holy spirit is actually Satan just tugging at your heart strings. What if everything you think you know about God is a big lie. How can you even tell the difference?

The only way to KNOW something is to be able to demonstrate it. You FEEL that you know the truth, but you do not actually KNOW the truth. If you KNEW it, you would be able to demonstrate it. In science, we know things because we can demonstrate them with evidence and logical lines of reasoning. All of this is justified by pragmatism. But faith is NOT justified by pragmatism, because faith leads to disagreement, not agreement. If faith were a useful method of determining the truth, then there would not be thousands of religions around the world, let alone the 30,000 sects of Christianity alone.

I have an interesting tidbit for you: Faith is just intuition. Jesus is just intuition. When you 'trust' Jesus, you are just trusting your intuition. The Bible uses this to trick you into thinking it is true. When you FEEL the truth, that is intuition, and intuition is FALLIBLE. The Bible uses stories and parables to make INTUITIVE arguments, i.e. ones that FEEL correct, not ones that can be demonstrated to be correct. It taps into the natural fallibility of human intuition to make you believe things that are not demonstrable. Intuition is a powerful feeling. It is the feeling that makes revelations bring tears to your eyes, but it is a fallible thing. Only evidence is able to find out when intuition is right or wrong.

It is intuitively obvious that the sun moves across the sky, but this intuition is false. In fact, the Earth spins, and we know this because we have evidence. It is intuitively obvious that complex things require a designer, but this intuition is false. In fact, life evolved without a conscious designer, and we know this because we have evidence.

Trust your intuition, but do not blindly trust it, because it is often (yes, often) wrong. When it comes to important questions, rely on evidence instead of intuition, because evidence is a more pragmatic way of determining the truth.

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We have intrinsic value given to us from a higher power. We are called to love one another, to care for the sick, defend the fatherless, mourn with those who mourn.

Why are we called to do this? What is the true purpose behind this?

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That is my explanation for why I am not an atheist. I find too much meaning in life.

You find NO meaning in life. You already said that you believe that without god, there would be no meaning in life. Therefore, you find meaning in god. But again, what is that meaning? What is the meaning of the universe, assuming god does exist? Please, I would love to know.

Myself, I DO find meaning in life, and it is the meaning that I choose for it. For example, part of the meaning of my life is to help bring stable peace to the world and to help humanity ascend to the stars.

Let me ask you one last thing: What is your vision for the future of the world? Do you see it as ending according to Revelations? If so, then is it true that you do not care about the long term future of the world (e.g. environment, wars, etc.)?

In response to God forgiving every sin. Yes he does, but only on the grounds of true repentance and belief.

So, are there ANY unforgiveable sins? If not, then why does the bible mention blasphemy of the holy spirit IS an unforgiveable sin?

Likewise, if god is willing to fogive any sin, then why can't we repent and believe after we die? Don't say, 'because god said so'. I want to know God's reason for this. Why does god put a time limit on his offer of salvation (one that he doesn't tell us beforehand, I might add, as no one knows when they are going to die)? I mean, someone can technically repent and believe 1 second before dying and be saved, but 1 second after dying it's too late. That's ridiculous. What if I die in my sleep without any warning? At least if I'm awake as I'm dying I have a chance to repent, but if I'm asleep, I have no chance. Why is there this arbitrary and unknown time limit?

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I submit that a man who has given his life to Christ does not have the capacity to blow up an abortion clinic.

Another claim with no evidence. Prove it.

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If his will has been transformed to the will of Christ, he will do the work of God, not the work of Satan.

Prove it. And while you're at it, prove that you have not been deceived by Satan.

Romans 6:1-2 NASB wrote:

1(A)What shall we say then? Are we to (B)continue in sin so that grace may increase?

2(C)May it never be! How shall we who (D)died to sin still live in it?

The bible is not evidence, it's a circular argument.

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Where do you (whoever responds to this) as an atheist feel your moral code comes from?

From the evolving human culture, of course. And the capacity to have a moral code (and communicate it) came from the evolving human species. Early pre-human society was more complex than any other animal on the Earth. To handle it, we needed bigger brains. Those with bigger brains were able to manipulate politics (originally sexual politics) better than others and achieve better biological fitness. The king of the hill effect. Bigger brains eventually led to the ability to use language, and this ability gave us culture, allowing us to communicate moral codes.

Some moral codes are better than others. For instance, 'an eye for an eye' is not as useful as 'love your neighbour' because vengeful societies are less stable and prosperous than loving ones.

So, moral codes have also evolved, but on a cultural level rather than biological. Today, our moral codes include things like being against slavery and discrimination, whereas the time the bible was written, slavery was endorsed and discrimination was common. Today's morals are thousands of times better than the morals taught in the bible. In fact, today's christians have had to invent interpretations of the bible to 'correct' it to match today's more advanced moral systems. Surely you don't think that we should keep slaves do you? The bible thinks it's totally normal, and Jesus NEVER condemns slavery directly and in fact gives 'moral' guidelines on how to keep your slaves.

So, where do YOUR morals come from? Where do GOD'S morals come from? What ARE god's morals? Does god follow a moral code? What is it? If god does not follow a moral code, then how can you logically call him 'good'?

Hell is the existence with God completely turning his face away from you. Complete banishment from the source of all Joy. God gives us what we want. If we want Him, we seek Him and find Him when we seek Him with all of our heart. If we dont want him, we reject him, and he rejects us. This is hell: God's eternal rejection.

Why is God's rejection eternal? Why can't I change my mind after I find out that hell is real? Why doesn't god just show himself so no one has to take a blind leap of faith?

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2. I act morally because I see intrinsic value in humans given to us by God. Nothing has value unless it is given value by something else.

Humans give value to human life. There is no need for a god that no one can prove.

It is used to describe the intense anguish and sorrow and regret you will feel for rejecting the thing that offered you everlasting life.

Wait a second. Whether we believe or not, we get everlasting life according to the bible, right? One is in heaven and the other in hell, right? So, god didn't offer us everlasting LIFE, but everlasting anguish/sorrow/regret or everlasting 'joy' in heaven. Why can't he just make unbelievers disappear after they die? Removed from existence, with no need for everlasting anguish/sorrow/regret.

God wants unbelievers to suffer. If he didn't, then he could just make us disappear, rather than torture us with eternal anguish/sorrow/regret. The least he could do is offer us the opportunity to change our minds after we die and finally find out once and for all whether he exists or not.

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How do you define value for a human life?

Value is a subjective thing, so there is no ONE definition of value. That is your false-dichotomy christ-goggle way of thinking showing up again. I value my mother's life over your mother's life, and you value them vice versa. It's subjective.

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If it is subjective, it can change.

Yep, just like how the value of a dollar changes, or the value of a sentimental thing like a teddy bear changes as you get older.

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Society cannot function on morals and values that are subjective to each person.

That's a claim that you have no evidence for. In fact, all of today's societies function on subjective morals and values. Do all Americans share the same morals and values? No. Does America function? Yes. Even better, countries in Europe that are mostly atheistic, say like Norway, function better (in terms of stability and quality of life) than America, which is largely Christian.

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Eventually you will run into eachother's morals and there is conflict. So how then do you resolve that conflict?

How does that make any sense? So you violate someone's morals. How does that change the fact that you and they have different (i.e. subjective) morals?

In fact, if morality is NOT subjective, then how do you explain the fact that there is conflict in the world. Clearly, if morals were universal (i.e. everybody held to the same moral code) then there would be no conflict. The fact that there is conflict in the world actually disproves the idea of universal morality.

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My morals are my morals, yours are yours. If my morals say it is OK to kill people, its OK for me, because they are my morals.

Ahhhh, you are confusing relativism with subjective morals. Typical, another false dichotomy. If your morals say it is OK to kill people, that does NOT change the fact that the people around you hold morals that say it is NOT okay to kill people. The fact that morals are subjective does not mean that morals are necessarily relative.

(I bet you're going to try to retort with yet another false dilemma, saying that subjective morals lead to majority rule. Before you do that, try learning something about ethics beyond what you were brainwashed into believing. Google Desire Utilitarianism for one example.)

What is his will? Your only sources are the bible (literally a 2000+ year old book) and your personal intuition.

So essentially, the purpose of your life is to glorify a fictional character, obey a book you don't even know who wrote, and when things aren't so clear, just trust your gut.

Thanks, I'll stick to my superior morality that includes caring for the future of this planet and the human race. I don't trust your book, I don't think gut intuition is the be-all end-all of reason, and I certainly don't care about glorifying a fictional character like Yahweh or Jesus, whose teachings are spotty at best.

The evidence that brought me to the conclusion of a creator consisted of Aquinas' theories for the existence of God, the fact of irreducible complexity (which shatter's darwin's theory), and an overall thought of intelligent design. I absolutely cannot believe in something so out of this world that purely by mere randomness life (in a fine tuned environment) was created and is sustained. Inconceivable.

Claims of "irreducible complexity" are just arguments from ignorance. Thousands of years ago, people didn't understand lightning, so they said that god did it. These days, someone with a poor understanding of natural selection can't imagine how we developed eyes or insects developed wings (or whatever example of irreducible complexity) so it must have been god.

For starters, natural selection is not random. It is driven by a creatures environment.

Well, let's assume for a moment that complex things require designers. Okay, is god complex? He is all-powerful and all-knowing, right? We are kind of powerful and not at all all knowing and you've argued that we're complex and require designers, so god must be much more complex than us. So god must need a designer as well.

The evidence that brought me to the conclusion of a creator consisted of Aquinas' theories for the existence of God, the fact of irreducible complexity (which shatter's darwin's theory), and an overall thought of intelligent design.

Please watch this video before trying to argue ID. Educate yourself. You clearly do not understand the theory of evolution. That's okay, but if you are going to argue against it, you should know it first.

Quote:

I absolutely cannot believe in something so out of this world that purely by mere randomness life (in a fine tuned environment) was created and is sustained. Inconceivable.

Argument From Personal Incredulity, a logical fallacy. You FEEL that design is true, but you have no reason or evidence to support your view. You ignore the evidence of evolution.

Just because something defies intuition, does not mean it is false.

Think about this: Anything that is obvious and true, everyone will know it intuitively. But some things which are true are NOT intuitive. For example, that the Earth spins, rather than the intuitive idea that the sun moves across the sky. In fact, the MOST important facts of science are the ones which are NOT intuitive. It is intuitive that a baseball would fall slower than a bowling ball, but in fact they fall at the same speed. Evolution is not intuitive. If it WAS intuitive, everybody would know it as common sense. That's why we have science, to find out those things which are true, but which are also not intuitive.

Intelligent Design is intuitive, but false.

Quote:

I said: "I see intrinsic value in humans given to us by God."

You do not SEE intrinsic value, you FEEL that there is intrinsic value. What evidence do you have that human value is intrinsic? The bible is not evidence.

Quote:

Once again, you assume too much. God is the author of all matter, and thus is the author of DNA.

That's an unsubstantiated claim. You don't KNOW that.

Quote:

I believe that the fact that you have a moral intuition is that God has made it an intrinsic part of humanity.

You believe that, but you don't know it. Scientist DO know that human moral intuition is an evolved trait. It has obvious biological advantage to be moral in a highly social species.

You wish to avoid this consequence, so you act according to god's will, without question

You merely assume that I have not questioned. While I was raised in a Christian home I was not indoctrinated with tyrannical teachings and threats of being sent to hell if I was a bad boy. I went to church most sundays, was read bible stories as a child and did other normal every day average American child things.

All of which amounts to a thorough religious indoctrination, occuring at ages when you are literally programmed to believe everything your parents tell you.

weasel7711 wrote:

I honestly didnt think much of God until middle school and high school.

Of course not! You already thought you had all the answers.

weasel7711 wrote:

I went to a public school where I was taugh the theory of evolution. I found it interesting and decided to check the facts myself. The more I learned about biology, and chemistry, and physics pointed me more and more toward some sort of designer.

Then you didn't understand what you were being taught. Or you had really bad teachers. Or both.

weasel7711 wrote:

The evidence that brought me to the conclusion of a creator consisted of Aquinas' theories for the existence of God,

Aquinas says that thought and reason are incompatible with faith. Basically, it's the same old saw: believe because you want to believe and don't let facts get in the way.

weasel7711 wrote:

the fact of irreducible complexity (which shatter's darwin's theory),

"Irreducible complexity" is a piece of fake scientific-sounding jargon coined by creationists to dress up a completely erroneous and non-scientific principle. You cannot give me an example of an organ or organism that could not have evolved through the process described bv Darwin. I dare you to try.

weasel7711 wrote:

and an overall thought of intelligent design. I absolutely cannot believe in something so out of this world that purely by mere randomness life (in a fine tuned environment) was created and is sustained. Inconceivable.

Inconceivable because you don't understand it. Evolution is not random. At all.

weasel7711 wrote:

And do not assume that I am a literal 6 day creationist. Ill point that out right now.

I don't care what kind of creationist you are, you're still wrong.

weasel7711 wrote:

Tilberian wrote:

This is not morality, it's self-interest.

You seem to not have much knowledge of Christianity. I wont even go into how selfless Christ (whom Christians are called to be reflections of) was. If you want to know, go read the Gospels and tell me Christ was a selfish man. (Whether he existed or not)

We aren't talking about christ. We are talking about you. You have attempted to dodge the point, but remain fully skewered. You have said that the only reason you refrain from immoral action is because god commands you to. You have further said that you believe god will punish you for ignoring his will. I have pointed out that avoiding immoral action out of fear of punishment is not morality - it's self-interest. Now admit that I am more moral than you because I behave morally with NO fear that I will be punished for immoral action.

weasel7711 wrote:

Tilberian wrote:

Sure. So humans have value because other humans value them.

Much like the "documentary" The God Who Wasn't There, you take things out of context and make them say what you want them to say.

I said: "I see intrinsic value in humans given to us by God."

What part of that looks like: "I see intrinsic value in humans given to them by other humans"???

I understand that you see no value in humans unless it is given to them by an imaginary higher being. This is a rather sick view of humanity, if I may say so. My point was, and is, that humans have value independent of god - value that is assigned to them by other humans. I see no reason why this isn't fully valid and real value, especially since the god who is supposedly meting out value is imaginary and this measure of value is really coming from other humans anyway.

weasel7711 wrote:

Tilberian wrote:

DNA is, of course, excellent evidence that there is NOT a designer. If god designs each of us in the womb, why bother with this cumbersome, complicated, error-prone mechanism? DNA shows us how we are really designed, and that no god is necessary.

Once again, you assume too much. God is the author of all matter, and thus is the author of DNA.

Once again, you are incapable of understanding arguments from science. You were trying to say that god is necessary to explain diversity in living things. I am pointing out that this is not so, since we can see that DNA can create diversity in living things through mutation and sexual reproduction. Now, if you wish to admit that god is not necessary to explain life's diversity, we'll chalk up another one for Darwin and move on to discussing whether god created DNA or not.

Let's start with you presenting your evidence that god created DNA.

weasel7711 wrote:

Tilberian wrote:

How does this pointless non sequiteur relate to the topic at hand?

I believe the topic at hand was the value of human life. It directly relates to it.

No it doesn't. It relates to your ad hoc decree that a fetus is a human life. Your statement is a matter of definition and does not address the value/lack of value of human life at all.

weasel7711 wrote:

Tilberian wrote:

Strange that I feel exactly the same way, yet hold no belief in god. Is it possible that this moral intuition comes from somewhere else?

The fact that you believe in something does not make it exist not does it make it cease to exist. My niece believes in Santa Clause, does that mean he exists? If I choose not to believe in the existence of the planet Mars, does that mean it doesn't exist?

I believe that the fact that you have a moral intuition is that God has made it an intrinsic part of humanity. Otherwise, please answer your own question for me, where does your moral intuition come from? And what happens if someone violates it? What happens if someone else's moral intuition is incompatible with yours???

Now hold on a second. Before you were saying that it is our awareness of god and his laws that causes us to behave in a moral manner because we fear his punishment. Now you are saying that god has instilled a moral instinct in us. What is your real position on this?

BTW, you might want to be careful about using the god-has-made-us-moral argument. Because if god did that, then he violated our free will to choose between right and wrong. And if he did THAT, then the test in the garden of Eden was rigged, original sin does not exist, and christ's sacrifice was meaningless. So we can go there if you want, but your theology is going to get pretty messed up.

I have told you where I think moral intuition comes from: a combination of rational choice and hardwired social behaviours. In other words, our brains. What happens if someone doesn't agree with us? Um, well, we disagree. And if we are thick-skulled theists making rules based on faith, we fight.

weasel7711 wrote:

Tilberium wrote:

I can't deny the emotive power of your fantasy, but I'm afraid I still have to point out that you have no evidence for any of this.

Maybe I shall work on putting a case for the existence and the diety of Christ. But in order for that to work I would have to get you to agree on the existence of a God, then on the existence of the God of the Old Testament. I have a life outside of this forum and schoolwork to be done in the mean time.

I apologize if any of this sounded like a personal attack, that is by no means what I am trying to do.

Nothing personal at all, of course. I'd be very interested to see your case for the existence of god.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown

Good thing I dont think like that then eh? I believe that, if it was true that there was no God, I would honestly see no point to respecting people who annoyed me or believed differenly than me. We wouldnt have been being created in the image of an all powerful creator, and thus each human life would have no worth. Therefore I wouldnt reeally be doing anything wrong in killing because there's no one to tell me what right and wrong are. I would be free to make my own moral code, and thus live by the ideal that "might makes right.

Fortunately in such a circumstance people with that view would quickly become extinct. Such people are so egotistical that they don't consider the desires and needs of others, only themselves. So they can justify anything. Everyone else would insure that people like them were eliminated so they could live in peace. Problem solved.

weasel7711 wrote:

Suicide bombers and abortion clinic bombers are mentally unstable. I hope, for logics sake, that you dont attribute their insanity to all religious people. Are many christians hyppocrites? You bet they are! Are they all hyppocrites?? NO!

Everyone is a hypocrite. And all religious people fall into three designations: Mentally unstable, brainwashed, or self delusional.

weasel7711 wrote:

In response to God forgiving every sin. Yes he does, but only on the grounds of true repentance and belief. True repentance and belief implies a turning around of one's life, putting your faith in Christ to change you from the inside out, and making a daily resolution to follow Him. Christians still stumble, but we are forgiven.

So you deny any responsibility for your actions and say only some fictional god has the right to judge you. More egotism.

weasel7711 wrote:

I submit that a man who has given his life to Christ does not have the capacity to blow up an abortion clinic.

Bible disagrees with you. Guess you aren't a true christian.

weasel7711 wrote:

If his will has been transformed to the will of Christ, he will do the work of God, not the work of Satan. If human beings had the intrinsic ability to be perfect, I submit that we wouldnt be needing to have wars over who's belief is correct.

I submit if there was a god and that god gave the slightest bit of a care for it's creation, it wouldn't let them wander around having no idea what was right and what wasn't. It would have said in no debatable way what was acceptable and what wasn't.

weasel7711 wrote:

Romans 6:1-2 NASB wrote:

1(A)What shall we say then? Are we to (B)continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2(C)May it never be! How shall we who (D)died to sin still live in it?

That being said, new question. This isnt a loaded question, i'm not going to mentally rape you with a bunch of hidden questions. I just want to know how people think: Where do you (whoever responds to this) as an atheist feel your moral code comes from?

Evolution.

weasel7711 wrote:

I'm not quite sure where everyone is getting the idea that I act morally because I fear eternal torment.

Because you said so.

weasel7711 wrote:

1. My view of Hell is eternal separation from the creator. Heaven is eternal dwelling with God, enjoying his Glory. Hell is not a physical place where a bunch of red guys stick you with hot pokers. Hell is the existence with God completely turning his face away from you. Complete banishment from the source of all Joy.

Now you said it again. Would not the absence of positive emotion be the presence of negative? It's black and white. Unlike real life.

weasel7711 wrote:

God gives us what we want.

Hasn't given me anything to this day. So you're projecting.w

weasel7711 wrote:

If we want Him, we seek Him and find Him when we seek Him with all of our heart. If we dont want him, we reject him, and he rejects us. This is hell: God's eternal rejection. Another common misconception of hell is that Satan will be ruling in hell. Untrue, Satan will be banished along with the rest of those who reject God's love.

You have no evidence of a god, let alone of such an intricate power strugle. This is mere fiction. Good for a movie perhaps, not for real life.

weasel7711 wrote:

2. I act morally because I see intrinsic value in humans given to us by God.

And that value would be removed without one? Why?

weasel7711 wrote:

Nothing has value unless it is given value by something else.

True.

weasel7711 wrote:

We are all created in the image of God. He has designed each and every one of us uniquely, as we can see through DNA.

Conjecture and projection. As stated 3 lines up, you have no evidence of a god, let alone that such particulars exist.

weasel7711 wrote:

I dont believe in the bombing of abortion clinics because the doctors, while sinners along with myself, are still God's creation and he is the only one who is worthy to judge.

Well, at least you follow a part of the bible. If every christian did then maybe christians would be ignored in the fight against theism. Most do not however. History is replete with the judgements of theists, despite the fact that their own religion tells them not to. Go figure.

weasel7711 wrote:

I dont believe in giving up on the atheist population of the world just because they sometimes mock my God or myself.

That's unfortunate, because as long as you argue for theism I'll be arguing against it.

weasel7711 wrote:

God wants all men to be saved and comes to a knowledge of the truth. I will not give up on you.

I won't give up on you either.

weasel7711 wrote:

3. My love for God is not spurned on the fear of punishment. Drawing a parallel to Office Space. That will only make someone work just hard enough not to go to hell.

That's your opinion. One you have no justification for. People are willing to sacrifice their one and only life to do something that will certainly get them killed. It follows that the use of fear is not adequate in and of itself to stop what you define as sin, or solidify belief in a god when there's no evidence of one.

weasel7711 wrote:

My love for God is based on the fact that he first loved me. Yes it's selfish, but thats what humanity is.

At least you recognize that your belief is egotistically centred.

weasel7711 wrote:

God loved me enough to take the form of a human, take on sin that I commit daily, and be crucified for it (one of the most horriffic deaths immaginable). I love God because he first loved me.

Only if you're right. Logic and evidence say you aren't.

weasel7711 wrote:

Consider this. I will say, for arguments sake, there is no god or supernatural being. How do you define value for a human life? Is it the majority opinion? Is it given by some other more powerful being? Is it subjective and thus determined individually or by each society?

Why do you need a god to assess value? The answer to your question can be approached a number of ways. From the selfish egotist to the capitalist billionare to the homeless on the street. Who's to say any of them are right? Who's to say any of them are wrong? Decide for yourself what value everything has. You do it for a great many things anyway, it shouldn't be hard for you to apply it to the rest.

weasel7711 wrote:

If it is given by power than it can change and it is determined by either a majority or the strongest. If it is subjective, it can change. Society cannot function on morals and values that are subjective to each person.

What? Your statement is false. No society in existance has had uniform morallity. Therefore it can only follow that no society can function on morals and values that are NOT subjective to each person.

weasel7711 wrote:

Eventually you will run into eachother's morals and there is conflict. So how then do you resolve that conflict?

I don't see a problem with the general way we resolve conflict right now(particulars of the justice system are a different debate). Why does anything have to change?

Nope. At best the other person will just be angry. At worst he/she will hurt you and be punished for the action. Same way it works right now.

weasel7711 wrote:

My morals are my morals, yours are yours. If my morals say it is OK to kill people, its OK for me, because they are my morals.

This is just more egotism. If you think others will stand for your actions, go for it. See what happens.

weasel7711 wrote:

But killing is wrong! According to you, not according to me.

But I can kill you before you can kill anyone else. And you don't think it's wrong, so you have no argument against that action.

weasel7711 wrote:

Subjective morality is irrational and illogical.

Who ever said the human species was rational and logical? Emotions do a good job of screwing with logic.

weasel7711 wrote:

To glorify God, serve Him in all that we do and to do His will.

What will that accomplish? What value does this have? It's an immortal omnipotent being. It has no need of servants or worshippers.

weasel7711 wrote:

The evidence that brought me to the conclusion of a creator consisted of Aquinas' theories for the existence of God, the fact of irreducible complexity (which shatter's darwin's theory), and an overall thought of intelligent design.

Excellent. You will then be disappointed to know that by it's very concept, irreducible complexity is a scientific hypothesis that can be tested. It has been tested. It has been proven false. Next.

I absolutely cannot believe in something so out of this world that purely by mere randomness life (in a fine tuned environment) was created and is sustained.

Fallacy of personal incredulity. And invalid as an argument. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

weasel7711 wrote:

You seem to not have much knowledge of Christianity. I wont even go into how selfless Christ (whom Christians are called to be reflections of) was.

I think this comment applies to yourself, not to him. The vast majority of your arguments so far are based on selfishness. Not selflessness.

weasel7711 wrote:

If you want to know, go read the Gospels and tell me Christ was a selfish man. (Whether he existed or not)

Even if he existed and was as selfless as you say, you are not christ. Nor is any other christian today. You cannot claim his supposed selflessness for yourself. Only being an arrogant egotist would suggest you can.

weasel7711 wrote:

Once again, you assume too much. God is the author of all matter, and thus is the author of DNA.

No, you are the one who is assuming. Then you claim it is others who are assuming. How blatantly hypocritical. Like all theists.

weasel7711 wrote:

The fact that you believe in something does not make it exist not does it make it cease to exist. My niece believes in Santa Clause, does that mean he exists? If I choose not to believe in the existence of the planet Mars, does that mean it doesn't exist?

How can you even say this without realizing you are victim to the same question? You can't prove a god. You just believe in it. Does that mean it exists? No, it doesn't.

weasel7711 wrote:

I believe that the fact that you have a moral intuition is that God has made it an intrinsic part of humanity. Otherwise, please answer your own question for me, where does your moral intuition come from?

Evolution. I realize I'm replying to multiple posts in this response, so I'll not mention repetition beyond this mentioning.

weasel7711 wrote:

And what happens if someone violates it? What happens if someone else's moral intuition is incompatible with yours???

The same thing that happens now. Same thing that's happened for about 200,000 years of evolutionary progress within our species.

weasel7711 wrote:

Maybe I shall work on putting a case for the existence and the diety of Christ.

I'd wish you luck, but you'd need so much of it to be successful that if you pulled it off I'd say throw it out and buy a lottery ticket. You'll win the jackpot. And somehow get out of paying taxes to boot!(if you're american anyway)

weasel7711 wrote:

But in order for that to work I would have to get you to agree on the existence of a God, then on the existence of the God of the Old Testament.

Since that god is physically impossible, I can say with all confidence that your prerequisite is just as impossible.