Has anyone got any experience with the VCAP upgrade in their TORII MK III if so what VCAP model is installed in the upgrade firstly, secondly, did you get the upgrade after the fact and have a chance to compare VCAP's to the TORII III stock CAPS. I have read a lot about the differences in the VCAP models and that the break-in time is very extensive but worth it. [smiley=51.gif]

You asked a very interesting question, and one that isn't, nearly as I can tell, readily answered elsewhere on this site so hopefully someone with experience with both the stock caps and V-Caps will chime in.

The V-Cap is offered as an upgrade, and while I may have missed it, there is very little information about the upgrade on the Torii product page. A shame too, because Steve does a very good job elsewhere contrasting the sound one can get from the different input, rectifier, and voltage regulator tubes one can install.

I noted on the Torii MK II Design Notes that Steve recommended not changing the coupling caps.

"The audiophiles favorite part [coupling caps] to modify... on the new TORII we recommend you please don't. The caps used have been selected for their benchmark coherency and the popular boutique audiophile caps have all been tried".

However, my thought is that any product, designed to a particular price point, might be improved through substitution of different parts. I am not saying that Steve hasn't taken this amp as far as it can go, maybe he indeed has, but unless someone who has tried various caps can state definitively, at least for his gear /room/ ears that the stock caps are as good as it gets, then one can rightly wonder about the effects of different caps.

Anyway, welcome again. It's a quiet place, but there are some very helpul members here. Don't let the lack of response put you off from giving the Torii a try.

JLM,Price out those caps and you can understand the charge. Also $2495 is a really low price for what Steve puts in this amp, not to mention the time it took to develop it. More like a $4,000 amp. The separate tube voltage rectification on the front end and the power side as well as the purpose built output transformers are reasons why it might/should cost more. $2500 is a bargain.

If I am correct, and the Torii-III still uses two caps per channel like the Torii-II did then you would have to have 4 caps instead of two doubling the price for a V-Cap upgrade. ON the Taboo, I think it is, some other changes are also made, (operating points) maybe this is why Steve thinks there is more an improvement than someone just replacing the caps.

I'm not tempted for several reasons. One. . . I don't want to return the amp, can't bear to be without, and I'm not gifted enough to perform that myself. Two. . . The expense. . I mean I would be more tempted to try something else, say the more expensive Wyred DAC, than this expense. And third I've a fear that these caps might make the amp more detailed, more clinical if you will. I tend to prefer musicality to absolute detail, and I think the Torii is very well set up by Steve and I'm not wanting to change the signature in any way.

Plus. . . hundreds of hours to "burn in". . . I could do without that.

VCAP guarantee's their caps for life, like DECWARE, confirming excellence/confidence, taking a GREAT AMP and making it one of the best amps available today. These premium caps are only found in ultra high end gear and usually the most expensive gear on the planet. Break-in is what it is, patience has its virtues as always. In the long run I am convinced that going with the VCAP is the way to go especially if buying the amp new, circumventing the the extra shipping fee's and extra most painful break-in period. Are they absolutely necessary NO, but in my case it seemed like a no brainer. If the amp sings like no other, maybe Steve will consider installing them in the ZP3 too. I will post my findings. One thing I like about the VCAP option is that if there are weak links in my system, they will jump right out and be easier to identify. Those pesky weak links, I don't like them.

I look at the VCAP upgrade as a longterm value, to be enjoyed for a long time, with the highest of returns. The initial outlay on the surface may seem steep but as I said a great short and longterm value overall. These caps are VERY expensive to buy even at bulk prices. I'd wager they are the most expensive caps available, of course I am not certain of that by any means. To me building the foundation correctly, if there is such a thing in audio is the most important thing, and proper equipment matching. Then its really all in the details thereafter.

Will do. So far the bass is fat and resolution is not good to be expected. The 88 db speaker I have may be marginal but can't tell yet ultimately. Hoping to get higher efficiency speakers if needed. Otherwise it goes fairly loud overall but nothing like my transistor amp did. Break in is what it is. Does anyone else have VCAPS in their Torii III?

Doug has V-Cap Torii and used the Esoteric breakin CD most of a few days and has amazing sound when he reported with only 3 weeks play. I decided to check the Esoteric CD out and just ordered one. The following review is an interesting story about the Isotek CD, which is apparently the precursor to the Esoteric one. It is used by Esoteric and Genesis on their own gear and reported to cut massive amounts of burnin time. I am all for that!

This might be the most in-depth review of a Torii MK III with V-Caps so far. The post itself begins on 04-30-11 but the thread itself, while short, is informative. I don't think it is the same person who recently put up his V-Cap modded Torii for sale.

Michael, thank for the link. There is actually a ton of good info in that thread, including a post by Steve, an ERR owner review, someone who used to love Infinity speakers (like me), etc. This is what I tried to post in reply over there, but I had limits from the Audiogon system (I really do not like that site):

Quote:

I understand why a low profile designer/manufacturer, especially one a bit iconoclastic and with a dedicated fan base, might generate some of these impressions, but in my dealings with the Decware community, I believe these are inaccurate impressions. Many in the Decware user base have in fact been all over the map with product, and some might be relatively untested, but once seduced, stay seduced. . I came to Decware late in life, having been a builder or owner of everything from Dynakits as a youngster to Carver to Quad (electronics and speakers), Linn, Infinity, Conrad-Johnson, Maggies, Acoustats, Transcendence, etc. I had small systems and monsters.

Unfortunately, owning or trying a lot of equipment does not necessarily make one an expert on anything. Exposure to live music, and learning to listen critically, are all one needs in my view, and there is plenty of that in the Decware base. Steve Deckert's focus on live music as a reference point, and his attention to room correction issues, along with his obsessiveness about value, are what got me going.

I am an ardent headphone listener with thousands invested in multiple amps, cans, and custom IEMs. When I decided to re-enter "speaker land," I auditioned everything from Orions to Geddes to Salks, every planar I could (I love them), and as many in between as I could find. I heard more "latest & greatest" than I literally could stomach. It was the mating of the Decware Taboo amp with my Audez'e LCD-2s that convinced me that Decware--which I had been looking at for over the last two years--was on to something.

If you are always on the eternal quest for the latest and greatest, the final infinitesimal, always elusive improvement, Decware is probably not your cup of tea. But if you knew the girl of your dreams the moment you met her, or prefer a 69 Lotus 7 over the latest Benz, Porsche or whatever (sorry, personal note there), or accept that the people you share it with are more important than the wine label, or that the authenticity of the musical experience is more pleasurable than the vapor deposited titanium faceplate, then take advantage of the 30-day trial and give it a whirl. You might enjoy the experience.

I posted this on Audiogon (pending moderator approval) ....1st post there I guess. Ah just another singer in the Decware choir!

Quote:

I understand the interest in comparing Decware to other stuff, but I, like many Decware users are either long-time audiophiles, DIYers or/and musicians….a crowd that is accustomed to critical listening. I personally prefer to compare Decware to life. This is not the same as comparing gear, but it is the most valid comparator I can think of. I just want it to feel as real as I can get it without breaking the bank. I also want a certain level of flexibility within this "realness." This requires that special balance of detail, liquidity, tonal balance, weight, definition, openness and all those other things we try to describe sound we love with. But those things are never enough…..it needs that special indescribable quality that makes me happy and amazed when I listen. The final determinant: does it suck me in to the music.... am I fully engaged and captivated by the music? And this can't happen unless it sounds and feels extremely lucid and complete.

As to whether the Torii is too detailed. The amp is very detailed in every respect due to its quality, simple and synergistic design….it even uses regulator tubes in parallel for power filters. But is also liquid, slightly warm, and has deep and detailed bass….not cold. All delivered with speed and open, harmonically textured definition. If you look at the Decware forum, you will not find many Torii posts wanting more bass. For more, this amp taught us that more room treatment may be needed to utilize the amazing bass it offers. Anyway, I would call the detail real, not hard or clinical.

You also have five sets of tubes you can roll, so not to worry if the voicing from Decware (which is very good) needs adjustment to your tastes. It is a tribute to how revealing the amp is that all of them make big differences in my system. Even a 50s-60s tungsol OB3 reg compared to Sylvania OB3s of the same period are similar, but real choices…not to mention more apparent tubes like many available 6-type input tubes. And with the bass pots, treble cut knobs, bias and impedance switches, Decware starts us off well, but gives a lot of flexibility to tailor the amp to tastes.

Not that I want the amp to gather too much attention as it takes a while to get stuff as it is, but this might answer the question about Decware going to shows....it appears that they have more than enough to do as it is!

And yes I am biased, and glad I found them. Their design work suits my ears and budget.

It doesn't look as if the Torii MK III made it into the current issue of Tone Audio. I am glad the reviewer is giving the amp a chance to break in. I looked at the thread over on Steve Hoffman's forum and saw Steve soliciting user input re tube-rolling. I am a bit surprised he didn't come here. There are some excellent tube-rolling posts on this forum. Someone should email him their thoughts before he finishes the review and it goes to press.

Thanks Mac. Greg's Agon post got chopped and mine got doubled....sort of. I agree that stock tubes would be the best. This is the way the amp was made and it would be a better service as a review if the stock were used. It'll sound great.

Up to a point, there is some merit in the goal of such a policy. If the goal is to make sure that a designer/manufacturer is sound, reputable, and reliable, that would be one surrogate, but what about the rather significant number of manufacturers who sell direct? Ohm comes to mind as an example of a long-time manufacturer that sells direct with a very generous in-home trial policy. So, if that policy is exclusive, it is a disservice to readers. If it is but one of several alternative benchmarks, it would be tolerable.

This "policy", again, this is just what I have read, has long been a source of aggravation for fans of smaller manufacturers, especially direct manufacturers, who make high quaility equipment and don't advertise. Lack of advertising support is often whispered about as one reason why products don't get reviewed. I can't count how many times I would like to have seen Stereophile review a speaker from Salk Sound, AudioKinesis, Ohm, or Decware, or an amp from Decware, Odyssey, or Response Audio. In fact, at least one offering from each of Decware's product lines would be very interesting.

Greg, one online publisher who apparently doesn't have those restrictions is 6moons.com. Next to AD, I would like to see Srajan Ebaen review Decware. He often times drives me to distraction with his meandering sometimes dense prose; neverthess, he loves to drill down and his reviews are very extensive.

Yeah, the writing at 6moons often reminds me of high school purple prose ("if I sound dense, obtuse, murky, and mysterious, perhaps people will regard me as meaningful"). Undisciplined writing is fine for coffee house poetry or beer bong romances, but it does little for technical or auditory elucidation of fine distinctions between equipment and sounds. However, they did a nice writeup of the ZDAC. And I think they did one on the original Triode, right? Would love to see a Torii review. And of course, with my choice of the Ltra, I am hoping to see some in-depth reviews of that.

,Well I'm back. My Torii Mk. III w/ V Caps is finally broken in. And no the one on Audiogon that is or was for sale is not mine. I did email that guy to ask why he was selling and he told me he needed more power for his speakers then I saw the speakers he mentioned up for sale. Not sure what his case is but he's having a hard time figuring out what he's doing I'd wager.I don't have anything to compare my V Capped Torii against so I really don't know what to say other then the amp has a wonderfully musical quality to it and seems to amaze me most of the time, especially when listening to records, which is nearly all the time because there is no CD player in the system and I don't miss that one bit. I do however miss the music on my rather large CD collection. I finally got out some old speakers I had in the attic that have 91db efficiency and the amp likes these well enough. I sold my SF auditors and it's been smooth sailing ever since the amp broke in. Which BTW at times made me think the amp was literally broken. It sounded that bad at times. A solid 1000 hours or more to break it in. That is about it, a GREAT AMP and an even GREATER VALUE. Look forward to new speakers when feasible any ideas???

lovethemusic, I got the same response when I contacted that fellow. And certainly, when I saw the speakers he was selling (fairly inefficient electrostats, I believe), I could see where he did not have the best matchup possible. But as you noted, I think he was having a hard time figuring out his strategy.

Glad to hear the Mk III is sounding so good. As for speakers, well.......