Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

This could easily come across as a post just complaining about deflect so Iíll do my best to articulate why I believe deflect is unbalanced and needs to be re-worked as well as what I believe could be potential solutions.

There are many problems with deflect so Iím just going to mention them in no specific order.

1. Itís always active irrespective of wether or not the defender is active. No skill should proc if a player has not joined the war.

2. Itís power scaling is completely backwards. That is to say that as the power differential between the attacker and the defender increases so does the power of deflect. The problem is that irrespective of anything else, 100% of the damage that would have been done to the defender is deflected back to the attacker. Thatís fine if you have a level 100 hitting a level 10,000 because the level 100 would hardly scratch the 10,000 and would therefore hardly take any deflect damage. But in the inverse scenario, the 10,000 could conceivably do more damage to the 100 with a single token than it has health which at deflect 3 effectively turns the skill into 15% chance to insta kill the enemy.

There is no circumstance in a balanced game where a level 100 should ever be able to one shot or do any amount of substantial damage to a level 10,000 yet in this example the 100 doesnít even need to use a token or even be active in the war to do so. Thatís practically the definition of a horribly unbalanced skill.

A solution to this would be to deflect a percentage of the damage done based on the power differential between the attacker and the defender. I donít know enough about the game mechanics to know the best way to implement this but to give a basic example using levels:

The maximum would be 100% damage deflected if you hit someone as strong or stronger than you and the minimum would be 0% deflected if the power differential was too great as in the 100 vs 10,000 example but damage would still be negated.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Let's say.
Lvl100 sniper x lvl100 enf.
Let's say sniper added all his points to attack. Mhmmm.. 1k maybe.
Enf did same but 800def and 200health.
I've seen a lot of snipers with low health but defenders need it.
This scenario show you SNIPER > Enforcer.

Killing spree can lock at 100% crit
AR give 40% (or 50) crit chance

Enf have 15% deflect. Get Phantom (15% negate deflect)... and chance to suppress

I can keep adding many many more arguments to defend defenders but it will take no where, skills was discussed a lot and nothing change.
(Killing spree still active after die if you don't heal)

IMO defenders need more power and skills.
My vote, NO to reduce deflect. Maybe a YES to increase it.

*i have a ghost too and use to kill myself by get deflected. It's not a one side perspective when I defend defenders.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Hitting obviously weak stat enforcer with my Ghost alt is arguably one of my most enjoyed parts of the game. I am well aware of the risks and if alone will often say "He who dares, my son..." while hitting power shot. "...wins!" is the most common followup. I take that risk for the team because a 1-shot kill on 6k+ health is far too tempting to ignore.

It backfires roughly 15% of the time. I'm not the biggest Ghost here though so I'm often attempting to support them by taking the gamble for them. No other in-game scenario in EvE makes me take a deep breath before firing a token.

So as a counter to this, some, myself included, find the challenge of deflect to be exciting.

Defenders already get the short end of the stick in some regards. I don't think they should be nerfed in any way. If anything, I think they aught to be buffed to maintain longevity of the match. Nobody likes a short EvE war with a small collect unless they have other things to do and if they do, why are they in EvE at all? EvE is 50% attacking and 50% holding buildings.

Attack classes cater to dump and run play styles and defense classes favor those who camp for the game duration. Your enforcers don't want a rougher time while waiting for your attackers to show back up and finally down that active that is forcing them to heal and armor up imo.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Originally Posted by Chaos A.D

Let's say.
Lvl100 sniper x lvl100 enf.
Let's say sniper added all his points to attack. Mhmmm.. 1k maybe.
Enf did same but 800def and 200health.
I've seen a lot of snipers with low health but defenders need it.
This scenario show you SNIPER > Enforcer.

Your argument here seems to be that snipers are better than enforcers because a sniper might build their toon better than an enforcer. Thatís a very poor argument for anything. Sure defenders benefit from having more health in EvE but enforcers and titans get a health bonus for that very reason. Additionally, if you use a decent EvE health setup you can get boost your EvE health significantly without having to invest any SP into health. To use myself as en example, I havenít put any SP into health but as an enforcer/Titan I have 6614 EvE health before shields which is plenty for a defender. But thatís all a moot point as deflect is unbalanced independent of how an individual builds their toon.

Originally Posted by Chaos A.D

Killing spree can lock at 100% crit
AR give 40% (or 50) crit chance

Killing spree is not a very powerful skill in isolation. It caps out at a stackable 17% to crit which means that if used in isolation, the probability of obtaining a 100% crit rate is 1.703%. Killing spree becomes powerful when used in conjunction with headshot and crit boosting lieutenants. It also requires a minimum of 6 tokens to get to 100% crit rate without taking any losses and the player needs to be active in the war to use it. Deflect has none of these restrictions. Itís powerful as a stand alone skill, it doesnít require tokens to proc, the chance to proc is not affected by losses and it is always at 100% of its maximum strength independent of any strength differential between the attacker and the defender - try to get any benefit from AR or killing spree as a level 100 hitting level 1000 toons, youíre gonna have a bad time. But if you are an inactive level 100 enforcer being hit by level 1000 toons you have a 15% chance to both negate damage and deal way more damage back to the attackers without spending a single token than if it were to actively spend tokens to attack them.

The notion that an enforcer can 1 shot kill or deal massive damage to toons many times their size that they would ordinarily lose too and hardly scratch is absurd.

I feel like Iíve rambled on a bit here but my point is that your comparison to killing spree is not a valid comparison. The comparison to AR is equally - if not more - flawed but I donít have the energy to write a point by point rebuttal right now. Iíd be happy to address it later on if youíd like me to though.

Originally Posted by Chaos A.D

Enf have 15% deflect. Get Phantom (15% negate deflect)... and chance to suppress

Thatís just a bandaid for a problem that shouldnít exist. It also substantially weakens your previous argument of snipers building their toons better than enforcers because it would require snipers and ghosts to use a seat for a lieutenant that does not synergise with their skills.

Originally Posted by Chaos A.D

I can keep adding many many more arguments to defend defenders but it will take no where, skills was discussed a lot and nothing change.
(Killing spree still active after die if you don't heal)

Many bad arguments do not equal one good argument.

Originally Posted by Chaos A.D

thatís IMO defenders need more power and skills.

I donít disagree here, but you seem to be overlooking the fact that the skills still need to be balanced. And whichever way you look at it, a skill that can allow a level 100 to one shot kill a level 1000 is not a balanced skill. Especially when you consider that the 100 doesnít need to be active or spend any tokens.

Originally Posted by Chaos A.D

My vote, NO to reduce deflect. Maybe a YES to increase it.

I feel Iíve already addressed why that would be problematic and without trying to sound condescending I feel that you donít understand the game mechanics nearly as well as you think you do if you would vote to increase the power of deflect.

Originally Posted by Chaos A.D

*i have a ghost too and use to kill myself by get deflected. It's not a one side perspective when I defend defenders.

Having an unbiased opinion says nothing about the validity of that opinion.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

I do agree that deflect is an unbalanced skill. If a level 10000 hits a level 100, the level 100 should only be able to deflect a small percentage of the hit. It is absolutely ridiculous that a level 100 can one shot a level 10000 without being active to the war.

That said, if deflect is nerfed defenders should definitely get something equal if not stronger. It just should not have backwards power scaling. It is quite frustrating to get unlucky and be one shot by someone who is much, much weaker who is also not even active in the war. Perhaps nerf the reflect amount, but have it heal or give armor to the defender based on the amount absorbed?

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

deflect unbalanced? what are the chances that u kill that same toon with 1 hit ? maybe the toon your hitting with is unbalanced and has a way too high critical hit , that high as it could kill itself if deflected .
i say lets reduce sniper /ghost critical rate and damage with 80% bcz sometimes while im defending with my lvl 570 titan (5k defense stat) and getting hit by a lvl (1200-1500) ghost (maybe 10k+ attack stat) im getting killed in a single hit each time i heal .

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

change it from incoming damage to actual damage then that should sort it all out, theres loads of things I dont like with this game, like for example this skill going off multiple times in a row, or a titans nano suit always going off when you do a big shot so they get about 250 armor regularly, or dead ghosts doging like crazy when they are dead, some things just dont make sense with the rng lol.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Originally Posted by Reaper9292

deflect unbalanced? what are the chances that u kill that same toon with 1 hit ? maybe the toon your hitting with is unbalanced and has a way too high critical hit , that high as it could kill itself if deflected .
i say lets reduce sniper /ghost critical rate and damage with 80% bcz sometimes while im defending with my lvl 570 titan (5k defense stat) and getting hit by a lvl (1200-1500) ghost (maybe 10k+ attack stat) im getting killed in a single hit each time i heal .

You're complaining about getting one shot by a guy who is double your level with double your stats? How is that unbalanced? The problem with deflect is the fact that you can be a weak account and one shot a far stronger account. That's the main argument here. There is nothing wrong with a much stronger account one shotting a weak account. They invested more money or time, so they're supposed to be stronger.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

I'm totally fine with something like plague because it doesn't one shot. What I mean is it's fine for the little guys to have some ways to deal with the big accounts. It's just a bit ridiculous that deflect always does 100% if it procs regardless of if it's high level vs low level.

I'd like to see deflect at the very least have a max hit capped at X % of the difference between your level and the targets level. For example a level 100 would only deflect up to 10% of a level 1000's health. But a level 1000 would deflect up to 100% of a level 1000's hit.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

There are many problems with deflect so Iím just going to mention them in no specific order.

1. Itís always active irrespective of wether or not the defender is active. No skill should proc if a player has not joined the war.

This is true, but that's partly because it's a passive skill for defenders. Toughness, Juggernaut, Die Hard, and Adaptation (and even the health bonus part of Veteran) all have an effect if the player hasn't joined the war, and those are just Enforcer skills. I seriously disagree with your idea that "No skill should proc if a player has not joined the war".

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Horribly unbalanced? Lol, why?
That's why is called deflect because deflects the damage, there are skills in the game to diminuate his percentage. And why the deflect shouldn't be active if the player aint active? Each player upgrades his account to protect his empire and maybe can't be active from variuos reasons, why making his account a vegetable? Just don't seem right

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Originally Posted by Babaju2

You're complaining about getting one shot by a guy who is double your level with double your stats? How is that unbalanced? The problem with deflect is the fact that you can be a weak account and one shot a far stronger account. That's the main argument here. There is nothing wrong with a much stronger account one shotting a weak account. They invested more money or time, so they're supposed to be stronger.

it ruined my game so i suggest to reduce crit chances , isnt that what we are doing at this thread?.
that guy also saying that a guy that hasnt joined war shouldnt be able to deflect lol , maybe everyone that hasnt joined war yet should show as lvl 1 0 att 0 def 0 health toon, i wonder how that would work out for his empire.
also u say " The problem with deflect is the fact that you can be a weak account and one shot a far stronger account" it sounds to me that that weak toon is pretty strong bcz its single shoting a far stronger account right?
also the main post takes as example a lvl 100 and lvl 10000 accounts, i will make another situation to describe how i see it.
we have two toons that started at the same day and spent same time and money on this game and build same amount of energy and stamina 400/200 one is building enforcer class and one is building sniper .
sniper started adding all stats to attack up to 4k while enforcer added all stats to health up to 4k .
now during war u as sniper hit that enforcer and spend all ur tokens on him and probably kill yourself on the process .and he might still have health left . who is the weak toon?
just bcz people build their toon differently doesnt mean theirs is weak. u have a high chance to one hit kill the full health enforcer as a sniper and that enforcer has a 15% chance to deflect your shot and even less chance to one hit kill you with deflect it sounds pretty balanced to me

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

I feel like this thread isnít going anywhere. I wrote what I thought was a fairly well thought out post explaining the problems with deflect as well as possible solutions and yet almost no one has addressed any of the points I made and have instead opted to argue from either emotional or self-serving perspectives.

The primary argument from many people here seems to be X benefits me therefore it is fine and Y does not benefit me therefore Y should be fixed. But wether or not a skill benefits you says very little about wether that skill is balanced. For instance a skill that increased the base crit rate of ghosts to 100% would both be extremely beneficial to me and extremely unbalanced.

If someone wants to pick apart my argument Iíd be happy to discuss things with them but if the best argument you have is to whine about snipers twice your level killing you then engaging with you is a waste of my time.

I wonder if any of the defenders in this thread have the self-awareness to be aware of the fact that they have literally flocked to this thread in an attempt to deflect the argument back at snipers and ghosts.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Originally Posted by Reaper9292

also u say " The problem with deflect is the fact that you can be a weak account and one shot a far stronger account" it sounds to me that that weak toon is pretty strong bcz its single shoting a far stronger account right?

Are you stupid? Or are you intentionally missing the point? The only reason the weak account is ďstrongĒ in this example is because deflect is overpowered. Itís really not that complicated.

Originally Posted by Reaper9292

also the main post takes as example a lvl 100 and lvl 10000 accounts, i will make another situation to describe how i see it.
we have two toons that started at the same day and spent same time and money on this game and build same amount of energy and stamina 400/200 one is building enforcer class and one is building sniper .
sniper started adding all stats to attack up to 4k while enforcer added all stats to health up to 4k .
now during war u as sniper hit that enforcer and spend all ur tokens on him and probably kill yourself on the process .and he might still have health left . who is the weak toon?

What bizzaro universe are you living in where you believe a toon with 4K health is as strong as a toon with 4K attack?

Also did you read the rest of the post I made? In that post I argued that the only time deflect was balanced and that 100% of the damage done should be deflected back was when you were hitting someone who was as strong or stronger than you. So if I understand what you are trying to say then for that bit you actually agree with me. But then based on that you extrapolated out that because it seems balanced in that circumstance that it must therefore be balanced in all circumstances which is ridiculous logic and suggests to me you didnít read my entire post.

Originally Posted by Reaper9292

just bcz people build their toon differently doesnt mean theirs is weak. u have a high chance to one hit kill the full health enforcer as a sniper and that enforcer has a 15% chance to deflect your shot and even less chance to one hit kill you with deflect it sounds pretty balanced to me

Wait, what? Are you legitimately not aware of the fact that stat point allocation has significant implications on the strength of a toon. I feel you have also missed the point - perhaps because you never read it to begin with - but I already put forth a case that deflect is overpowered independent of how someone chooses to build their toon.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Are you stupid? Or are you intentionally missing the point? The only reason the weak account is “strong” in this example is because deflect is overpowered. It’s really not that complicated.

What bizzaro universe are you living in where you believe a toon with 4K health is as strong as a toon with 4K attack?

Also did you read the rest of the post I made? In that post I argued that the only time deflect was balanced and that 100% of the damage done should be deflected back was when you were hitting someone who was as strong or stronger than you. So if I understand what you are trying to say then for that bit you actually agree with me. But then based on that you extrapolated out that because it seems balanced in that circumstance that it must therefore be balanced in all circumstances which is ridiculous logic and suggests to me you didn’t read my entire post.

Wait, what? Are you legitimately not aware of the fact that stat point allocation has significant implications on the strength of a toon. I feel you have also missed the point - perhaps because you never read it to begin with - but I already put forth a case that deflect is overpowered independent of how someone chooses to build their toon.

Everyone...
Do not attack/ insult others who do not share your opinions. Forums welcome diverse opinions stated with respect and are constructive. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and don't have to agree with what someone else says.

Posts should always be constructive and respectful always from everyone PLEASE (final general warning).

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Are you stupid? Or are you intentionally missing the point? The only reason the weak account is “strong” in this example is because deflect is overpowered. It’s really not that complicated.

What bizzaro universe are you living in where you believe a toon with 4K health is as strong as a toon with 4K attack?

Also did you read the rest of the post I made? In that post I argued that the only time deflect was balanced and that 100% of the damage done should be deflected back was when you were hitting someone who was as strong or stronger than you. So if I understand what you are trying to say then for that bit you actually agree with me. But then based on that you extrapolated out that because it seems balanced in that circumstance that it must therefore be balanced in all circumstances which is ridiculous logic and suggests to me you didn’t read my entire post.

Wait, what? Are you legitimately not aware of the fact that stat point allocation has significant implications on the strength of a toon. I feel you have also missed the point - perhaps because you never read it to begin with - but I already put forth a case that deflect is overpowered independent of how someone chooses to build their toon.

You should go play candy crush really. The game is designed to be balanced. a 10000 level can be defeated by a level 100's deflect is completely normal. It is chance based and It is not always proc. Killers have overkill to multiply their critical up to the ridiculous amount. Deflect has been here since day 1.

There is always an option to use Health Pack/ Armor even after you get deflected. You are not completely useless in eve after killing yourself through deflect. If killer can 1 shot defender, I see NO REASON why defender CANNOT 1 shot back killer. The game is designed so that every class has their own strength and weaknesses.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

[QUOTE=Metalstorm;175511]Your argument here seems to be that snipers are better than enforcers because a sniper might build their toon better than an enforcer. Thatís a very poor argument for anything. Sure defenders benefit from having more health in EvE but enforcers and titans get a health bonus for that very reason. Additionally, if you use a decent EvE health setup you can get boost your EvE health significantly without having to invest any SP into health. To use myself as en example, I havenít put any SP into health but as an enforcer/Titan I have 6614 EvE health before shields which is plenty for a defender. But thatís all a moot point as deflect is unbalanced independent of how an individual builds their toon.

Killing spree is not a very powerful skill in isolation. It caps out at a stackable 17% to crit which means that if used in isolation, the probability of obtaining a 100% crit rate is 1.703%. Killing spree becomes powerful when used in conjunction with headshot and crit boosting lieutenants. It also requires a minimum of 6 tokens to get to 100% crit rate without taking any losses and the player needs to be active in the war to use it. Deflect has none of these restrictions. Itís powerful as a stand alone skill, it doesnít require tokens to proc, the chance to proc is not affected by losses and it is always at 100% of its maximum strength independent of any strength differential between the attacker and the defender - try to get any benefit from AR or killing spree as a level 100 hitting level 1000 toons, youíre gonna have a bad time. But if you are an inactive level 100 enforcer being hit by level 1000 toons you have a 15% chance to both negate damage and deal way more damage back to the attackers without spending a single token than if it were to actively spend tokens to attack them.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

I've played ghost for a long time and can say, that deflect was the most hated skill for me.
Especially when I hit on rush and had a Overkill proc deflected.

But i don't think in anyway that deflect should be changed. Why?

Especially for new player starting the game, enforcer or heavy are great classes.

How would you keep those toons motivated to keep on playing the game.

Those players are nowhere near to compete with majority of ppl.

Those players can only be satisfied by being a supportive player for stims nothing else.
That deflect is the only cool skill to make them feel worthy for a second, when it procs
On a big hit and maybe be on the board once for that single shot dmg through deflect.

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Originally Posted by socool

The game is designed to be balanced. a 10000 level can be defeated by a level 100's deflect is completely normal.

Design and implementation are two entirely seperate concepts. The fact that the game is designed to be balanced says nothing about wether or not the game actually is balanced. Additionally, wether or not something is ďnormalĒ says nothing about wether that thing is good. Unfortunately it is difficult to provide non politically charged counter examples and Iíd rather not go down that path.

Originally Posted by socool

It is chance based and It is not always proc. Killers have overkill to multiply their critical up to the ridiculous amount. Deflect has been here since day 1.

But thatís precisely the problem. If you were to attack someone in EvE or PvP who was 100 times your size you would take a loss and you would barely scratch them. If you wanted to increase your chance of a win you could seat a 9* Lucky Shot which gives you a 3% chance to auto win in EvE. The damage would still be very low and you would still probably take more counter damage than damage done but at least now you have a 3% chance to get a win. In this example, deflect is more than 5 times as powerful as a 9* rare lieutenant as the chance is now up to 15% and the damage done is based on the attack of the level 10,000, not the level 100 so it would be much, much higher. 9* rares are incredibly powerful and we are talking about a single skill that is more than 5 times as powerful as that. If the game is truly as balanced as you claim it is then all the other classes must have correspondingly powerful skills. I would challenge you to name them.

Originally Posted by socool

There is always an option to use Health Pack/ Armor even after you get deflected. You are not completely useless in eve after killing yourself through deflect. If killer can 1 shot defender, I see NO REASON why defender CANNOT 1 shot back killer. The game is designed so that every class has their own strength and weaknesses.

If a defender can 1 shot an attacker without needing to be active in the war or even spending a token, I see NO REASON why attackers CANNOT 1 shot back without spending a token or being active in war. See how absurd it sounds when you flip it around?

You are also saying that because a level 10,000 can 1 shot a level 100 that a level 100 should also be able to 1 shot a level 10,000. If everyone could kill everyone there would be no incentive to get stronger. Do you not see how implementing that would negatively affect the game?

Your argument regarding health packs also makes no sense. Just because I can heal doesnít mean someone who is a fraction of my size should be able to kill me.

I have also intentionally left out details of my toons because they arenít relevant, a good argument should be able to stand on its own merits hence why I laid out my position in my first 2 posts. Obviously you think Iím wrong but your best course of action would be to dismantle my arguments and show me where/why you think Iím wrong.