most of you are high on rhetoric and low on substance ........
I guess most of you are a bunch of 15--25 year olds with some connections in the army.
Most "facts" that have been spitted around have been known for ages. Nothing new ........flame wars.......Fact is Pakistan has a good tank for the subcontinent but it certainly isnt the best tank in the world .......
Just consider that the M1 A2 Abrahams in Iraq took an average of 7-8 hits per tank by RPG's , anti tank weapons and tank fire and still were working. Only 4-5 tanks were destroyed. .......... Is the AK that tough !!!!!
The AK needs to consider turret top protection by ERA considering Indian has a large helicopter anti tank fleet. Currently it doesnt have it and is vulnerable to attacks from planes and helis.
Modern ERA on all surfaces would add on another 5 tons and cause mobility problems!!
AK would however be able to take on the t-72 with ease but would face a challenge from the t-90. The best tank commander with better tactics will win in a match of AK versus T-90.
my humble thoughts
Oz

most of you are high on rhetoric and low on substance ........I guess most of you are a bunch of 15--25 year olds with some connections in the army.Most "facts" that have been spitted around have been known for ages. Nothing new ........flame wars.......Fact is Pakistan has a good tank for the subcontinent but it certainly isnt the best tank in the world .......Just consider that the M1 A2 Abrahams in Iraq took an average of 7-8 hits per tank by RPG's , anti tank weapons and tank fire and still were working. Only 4-5 tanks were destroyed. .......... Is the AK that tough !!!!!The AK needs to consider turret top protection by ERA considering Indian has a large helicopter anti tank fleet. Currently it doesnt have it and is vulnerable to attacks from planes and helis.Modern ERA on all surfaces would add on another 5 tons and cause mobility problems!!AK would however be able to take on the t-72 with ease but would face a challenge from the t-90. The best tank commander with better tactics will win in a match of AK versus T-90.my humble thoughts Oz

will thses flame wars evr end on the Al-Khalid Vs Indians Tanks ...... he guys get a life and give it up ...... this topic has been discussed till death ...... give it up and dont waste precious bandwidth ..... if u knw wat tht means ......

The Indian Army has finally commenced an ambitious project to upgrade its T-72M1 Main Battle Tanks to modern day standards. Over the past two decades, the T-72M1 has provided yeoman service to the Army. It is well liked by the Army for its ruggedness, low silhouette and weight (41.5 tons) as well as firepower (125mm 2A46 smoothbore main gun, 12.7mm anti-air machine gun and 7.62mm co-axial). The T-72M1 is the backbone of the Indian armoured fleet, over 1700 tanks are believed to be in service. License production was undertaken at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, Tamil Nadu. To keep the tank fleet viable, an upgrade plan was drawn up by the Army. But during the early 1990s, the Indian economy went through a tumultuous phase and the resulting fiscal problems forced these plans into abeyance.

Now the economy is on an upswing and the Army has hence been allocated funds to pursue this critical modernization. The tank upgrade will proceed in stages. The Indian T-72 fleet is huge and more modern tanks are also being inducted, so some T-72s are being outfitted with all the bells and whistles - the 'gold standard' so as to speak, whereas the rest will be modernised in a more modest manner. Commencement has begun by bringing 250 tanks to the DRDO's (Defence Research & Development Organisation) 'Combat Improved' Ajeya standard. (The T-72M1 has been named the Ajeya in Indian service). The 'gold standard' upgrade package includes:

• A new fire control system: the Drawa-T from PCO-Cenzin of Poland. The Drawa-T is present on the Polish PT-91 tanks, their much improved variant of the T-72, and a muzzle reference system.

• A thermal imager integrated with the Drawa-T fire control system, supplied by Israel's El-Op.

• Laser Warning System: Designed by DRDO, BEL and Indian Industry, to be manufactured by BEL.

The tank's stabilisation will also be upgraded - the gun control system being the responsibility of Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd. and/or the Electronics Corporation of India Ltd. The DRDO's Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) package will also be part and parcel of the upgrade. This comprehensive suite was developed for the Arjun program and is well tested. The ERA provides enhanced protection against both chemical (HEAT) as well as kinetic attack (FSAPDS). It reduces the effect of a Milan hit by 70%. The ERA coverage also extends to the turret top, for protection against top attack anti-tank guided missiles. The DRDO's ERA has saved the Indian exchequer a considerable amount in foreign exchange. DRDO notes that imported ERA packages would cost approximately Rs.4,80,000 per tank. At present exchange rates that comes to about USD $80K - 90K per tank, a substantial amount given the number of tanks India wishes to upgrade.

A new Integrated Fire Detection & Suppression system has also found its place in the upgrade. Improvements to the tank's Nuclear Biological & Chemical protection are also included. Both these technologies were developed by DRDO via the Arjun program. India's Defense Ministry has noted that the 'Combat Improved' Ajeyas have begun rolling out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, Tamil Nadu with transfer of technology and other improvements having taken place smoothly. To bear this increased weight, the T-72 will also receive a new power pack. Apparently, an attempt to shoehorn the T-90S' 1000 hp engine into the T-72 was unsuccessful. Several European firms have their engines on offer. Wartsila and Slovakia's Kerametal have both offered 1000 hp engine solutions to India.

However, India's most recent tank project - the Tank-Ex has been equipped with a 1000 hp engine - the T-72's 780 hp one up rated to 1000 hp. HVF Avadi and DRDO have been working on this project for some time and its selection for the Tank-Ex indicates that its development is complete. This relatively low cost option would be the best choice for the Indian tank upgrade and is probably the engine of choice. The Arjun program has served its purpose - many of its spin-offs have been applied to the T-72 upgrade. These include the armour, laser warning system, the Integrated Fire Detection & Suppression System. DRDO and BEL's work on other aspects has also borne fruit - the Combat Net Radio is the Army's choice. Apart from these, DRDO and OFB's (Ordnance Factory Board) 125mm Fin Stabilised Armour Penetrating Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) round is also a direct spin-off of the Arjun MBT program. After some initial hiccups, the production has stabilised once more - since 2001, some 130,000 rounds have been produced by OFB.

Moving Forward

The upgrade of the remaining tanks is to proceed in batches - albeit to different levels. Many tanks will receive an update to their Fire Control Systems and at the very minimum, the radios will be replaced. Interestingly, Poland's Defence Minister has recently noted that India and Poland are close to confirming a defence agreement worth $330 million. This apparently, is in addition to the initial Indo-Polish agreement, wherein Poland supplied armoured recovery vehicles, parachutes for special forces and of course, the Drawa-T FCS for the first batch of 250 T-72M1 tanks.

The Choices at Hand

The experience gained via the Arjun program has given Indian designers the confidence to upgrade the T-72M1 on their own. India has hence chosen acquired specific systems on a 'import when required' basis. For instance, India does not have a viable thermal imager of its own design and hence chose to involve El-Op in the T-72 upgrade program. In the coming days, more Arjun components and sub-systems may also find their way onto the T-72M1. Various international manufacturers have responded to the Indian Army's request for proposals. They are;

The Russians: Russia has its own T-72M1 improvement program on offer - it covers all the aspects of the Indian program, albeit with Russian made components. The ERA is a new design and is claimed to offer enhanced protection against both FSAPDS and anti-tank guided missiles. The T-72M1 will be modernized on lines of the T-90S which India already operates. For example, the new Fire Control System would permit engagements with the Refleks gun launched missile. The commander would be able to take over the engagement as well. A thermal imager would also be provided for night fighting. Two axis stabilisation, as in the T-90S, would enable fire-on-the-move capability. The Russians also have a range of ammunition on offer for the 125mm 2A46 gun. The engine would also be upgraded to 1000 hp. India could also seek to incorporate more esoteric devices - such as an anti-mine device working on the principle of electromagnetic suppression. Russian Laser Warning Systems are also available, if India were to opt for them. The Shtora EOCMDAS (Electro Optic Counter Measures Defensive Aids Suite) has been repeatedly advertised as well, but its selection is doubtful at present - given that even the Indian T-90S do not have them.

The Poles: Poland is seeking to expand its involvement in the T-72M1 upgrade program as well. Having supplied the Drawa-T FCS, it has offered to upgrade the tanks to its own PT-91 standard, with a Polish reactive armour package and laser warning receivers. PZL Wola also manufactures its own 1000 hp engine. The FCS on offer would be the Drawa-T to offer maximal commonality with India's prior purchases. Incidentally, Poland is also supplying the PT91M to Malaysia - these tanks have the even more modern French Savan 15 FCS, derived from the one on the French Leclerc MBT. Poland has also modified its 125mm FSAPDS-T rounds with a new high penetration tip, with a claimed penetration of 560mm at 2 km.

The Israelis: Israel has now emerged as one of India's biggest defence suppliers. It has supplied the thermal imagers for India's tank upgrade as well as 125mm FSAPDS ammunition for the T-72 fleet in the past. Anti-tank munitions are part and parcel of the Israeli defence establishment's product line. Israel has extensive experience in the tank upgrade arena - it has converted captured Russian-manufactured tanks into armoured personnel carriers and has constantly updated its older tanks (M-47, M-60, Centurion) to impressive standards. Israel has its own series of armour - reactive and passive, fire control systems, stabilisation systems, countermeasures - all of which are on offer for upgrade purposes. Israel manufactures its own Main Battle Tanks - the Merkava series - with the Knight Mk3 Fire Control System (on board the Merkava 3) having been repeatedly advertised for sale to India. A consortium of Israeli firms - including Israel Military Industries, Tadiran and Elbit - has put its best foot forward to compete for Project Rhino. Given attractive offers of offsets and technology transfer, they might have a winning chance. Tadiran has already supplied quite a few state of the art communication suites to the Indian Army.

The Ukrainians: Morozov of Ukraine, have also come forth with various proposals to upgrade the Indian T-72M1 fleet. Given their deep involvement with the Pakistani tank programs - Al Khalid (Norinco MBT 2000), Al Zarrar ( Type 59 upgrade) and the T-80 UD/T-84 sale - their chances of winning the Indian contract seem slim at best. That prospect has not quite dampened their spirits. Ukraine has also offered its latest laser beam riding 'combat' 125mm gun launched anti-tank missile to India. A derivative of the Russian Refleks, its heavier than the Russian round and is of similar configuration.

The Dark Horse: Then there is DRDO's Tank-Ex. More of a de novo development, rather than an upgrade - this project sees the Arjun's firepower and protection coupled with the T-72M1's low profile and agility. The Arjun's turret is integrated with the T-72M1's hull. The armour is the Kanchan and a 1000 hp power plant (an up rated 780 hp engine) is standard. An APU (Auxiliary Power Unit) is also provided. The Tank-Ex will also benefit from the Arjun-LAHAT integration. Two prototypes have been built and are to be demonstrated to the Indian Army this year. Once the trials are successful, some 300 tanks could be ordered. It has been suggested that T-72M1 hulls will be imported from Russia instead of utilising the existing T-72M1s in the Indian inventory. In that case, the Tank-Ex would be more of a new acquisition rather than part of Project Rhino.

Not Too Fast

Observers may note that the Indian Army's approach seems to be quite cautious, time intensive and somewhat limited in scope. Given sufficient funding, it seems puzzling as to why the Army is not upgrading all its T-72's at a rapid clip. There have already been considerable delays in Project Rhino to boot. The Indian economic crisis in the early 1990's saw modernisation funds dry up. In this clime, the only funds available to the Army were those for the Arjun- the DRDO had no separate budget of its own for the same. This sparked another round of time consuming debate, benefiting none, further delaying decision making and adversely impacting the Army-DRDO relationship to top it all off. Technical defects also added to the problems. HVF Avadi had primary responsibility for developing the upgraded power plant and took their own sweet time to develop the same. Even after technical defects were by and large overcome and the DRDO and the Army quickly evaluated the Drawa-T FCS and other components, the upgrade hung fire. A go slow approach was the order of the day and sundry excuses were trotted out. Earlier controversies - such as the one over the Bofors howitzer purchase were also cited as contributing factors. This as a 'quick decision' would have lead to accusations of corruption.

Such frivolity apart, the T-72 upgrade continued to be put on the backburner. The past delay has been inexcusable. Pakistan took the opportunity to beef up its armour force with T-80UDs/T-84s and continued to induct license manufactured Type 85-IIIs, eroding Indian armour superiority. China began a sustained modernisation campaign as well. On the other hand, India kept dragging its feet on re-equipping the Army. It took the Kargil War in 1999 to spark off a long overdue defence modernisation. Now, the situation has seen considerable change for the better (for instance - a fast track procurement mechanism to reduce, if not eliminate bureaucratic delay) and the Army can afford to hanker for the best deal. This is also because present inductions are adding sufficient 'punch' to Indian armoured formations. 310 T-90S tanks from Russia were ordered by the Indian Army and the induction is to be completed by 2005 (186 of the tanks are to be assembled at HVF Avadi). Thereafter, HVF Avadi will commence production of the T-90S at a rate of some 100 tanks per year. India's Defence Minister has noted that the T-90S will be the Indian Army's standard MBT and some 1000 tanks would be manufactured in India, beginning in 2006-07, apart from the present 310 tanks. Ultimately, the T-90S will make up 30% of India's tank fleet.

The Indian Army has also ordered 124 Arjun MBTs - India's own indigenous Main Battle Tank. This heavily armoured tank is to receive a further boost to its firepower - Israel's LAHAT. The T-90S fits in well with the logistical 'footprint' of the T-72M1 and is hence to be the standard MBT. At the same time, the Arjun design has come good and has won its supporters as well. But the present Army Chief General Nirmal Chander Vij, put it best when he said, "The T-90 and Arjun tanks will be our main battle tanks. Both are exceedingly good and we will like to depend on both of them." Given these inductions - both confirmed and planned - the Indian Army can afford to 'stagger' its T-72M1 upgrade. Both the T-90S and Arjun are deemed superior to the tanks Pakistan and China operate. Apart from these, low rate production of the T-72M1, has continued along the years. As a result, the Indian Army has now phased out the venerable Vijayanta MBT. The T-55 MBTs are still around but will be supplanted by the upgraded T-72M1s. The T-72M1 production will continue for another three years, as per General N C Vij.

The shortfall in overall numbers (thanks to the replacement of the Vijayantas and T-55s) are being made up by the production of the T-72M1 and the induction of the T-90S and Arjun tanks. Furthermore, after the fall of the Soviet Union, the Indian Army (Corps of EME, assorted base workshops) and its allied organisations (HVF Avadi, DRDO, private suppliers, et al.) made a huge effort to indigenise the T-72M1 spares production. They have had considerable success in the same and the Army feels confident about sustaining a huge T-72M1 fleet. The manufacturers have tied up with local industry to manufacture even those components which have proven hard to indigenise in the past - such as rubber items. With Project Rhino, the T-72M1 will be all set to serve the Indian Army well into this decade and the next.

Ok lets do a comparison agian with a T-90s vs Arjun MK 2Crew:Arjun 4, (Commander, Gunner, Loader & Driver).T-90 3I believe having a 4 man crew is certianly better than three since the work load is shared on the tank.Combat WeightArjun 58,500 kg (58.5 tonnes).T-90 46,500 kg.Sometimes more wieght means more armor but I also know that the Turret is very large on the Arjun. My personal opinon is that from a look that Arjun has a more solid armor and a Turret that somewhat resembles the Leapord.Engine:T-90 Powered by a 1,000 hp V-92S2 four-stroke V-12 diesel engine with a power-to-weight ratio of 21.5 hp/tonArjun 1400 hp German engine 23.93 hp/ton.

Fire Power.When it comes to firepower there is no comparison between the two. Its common to know that the Arjun is easily superior in terms of fire power. But for those who don't know, i'll compare. The Arjun is armed with 120 mm rifled gun and the T-90s has a 125 smoothbore.The 2A46M smoothbore gun is stabilised (Zhasmin 2E42-4 system) in two axes and is fitted with a thermal sleeve. The gun tube can be replaced without a need for dismantling inside the turret. The gun can fire various ammunition including APFSDS-T (Armour Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot - Tracer), HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank), HE-FRAG (High Explosive Fragmentation) as well as shrapnel projectiles with time fuzes. In addition it can also fire a special HE-FRAG projectile that can be detonated over the target using the tank's fire-control system. Maximum rate of fire is at 7 rounds per minute. The gun can also fire the 9M119 Refleks-M (NATO: AT-11 Sniper-B) anti-tank guided missile system. The range of the missile is 75 to 5000 metres and takes 14.2 seconds to reach maximum range. The system is intended to engage tanks fitted with ERA (Explosive Reactive Armour) as well as low-flying air targets such as helicopters, at a range of up to 5 km. Hit probability is over 80%. The missile system fires either the 9M119 (3UBK14 weapon system) or the 9M119M (3UBK20 weapon system) missiles which have semi-automatic laser beam riding guidance and a hollow charge warhead. Missile weight is 23.4 kg. The gun's automatic loader will feed both ordnance and missiles.The panoramic sight enables the commander to effect an all-round surveillance on the battlefield without moving his eyes from the sight and without being disturbed by the motion of the turret. The field of view is stabilised with the help of a two-axis rate gyro mounted on the platform of the head mirror. The sight has dual magnification. The ballistic computer, computes the gun laying data based on information provided by a number of sensors mounted in the vehicle and on manual inputs and provides the signals corresponding to the tangent elevation and azimuth offset. To increase the accuracy of the firing, the fire control system has a coincidence window that allows firing of the main armament only when it reaches the desired position as dictated by the computer. The 120mm rifled gun will fire APFSDS (Armour Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot), HESH (High-Explosive Squash Head), HE (High-Explosive), HEAT (High-Explosive Anti-Tank) and smoke rounds. A special 120mm anti-helicopter round is under development as well. All 120mm rounds use a semi combustible cartridge case. Easily the Arjun can dystroy almost all targets with the semicumbustable rounds. These rounds a specially designed for the Arjun so it will keep its range. Note that the Arjun can now fire LAHAT ATGM which are the first to do that by a rifled gun.

Pakistan ARMY AND NATION IS PROUD OF HIS HOME MADE TANK. WHILE indians HAVE TRIED TO MADE THIER ONE BUT FAILED BECAUSE india ONLY KNOW TO SAy ( :(Blah :(Blah :(Blah :(Blah :(Blah ) NOT TO DO.and its a fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pakistan ZINDABAD :pkflg) :pkflg) :pkflg) :pkflg) :pkflg)

Al Khalid , the best.

"And Make Ready Your Strength, To The Utmost Of Your Power". Quran

Men at their best Pakistan Army

As long as we hope tomarrow awaits

"I'll be glad when we are no longer dependent on US aid". Winston Churchill said in 1954

"Each time Paris was taken during last centuary,French resistance crumbled within an hour". Charles de Gaulle wrote in 1934

New Delhi: A battle tank is a tank that fills the heavy direct fire role of many modern armies. They were originally conceived to replace the light, medium, heavy and super-heavy tanks.
Development was spurred onwards in the Cold War with the development of lightweight composite armor. Indian Army comprises of some of the best battle tanks, lets know bit about them.

Here is the list:

1. Arjun MBT Mk-1

The Arjun is a third generation main battle tank developed by Indias Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), for the Indian Army.

The Arjun features a 120 mm main rifled gun with indigenously developed APFSDS ammunition, one 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun, and a 12.7 mm machine gun.

It is powered by a single MTU multi-fuel diesel engine rated at 1,400 hp, and can achieve a maximum speed of 70 km/h (43 mph) and a cross-country speed of 40 km/h (25 mph).

It has a four-man crew: commander, gunner, loader and driver. Automatic fire detection and suppression, and NBC protection systems are included.

All-round anti-tank warhead protection by the newly developed Kanchan armour is claimed to be much higher than available in comparable third generation tanks.

With a total of 248 to be built by Heavy Vehicles Factory. This to be followed by the Arjun MK-II and the FMBT.

2. T-90S Bhishma

The T-90 is a Russian third-generation main battle tank that is a modernisation of the T-72 (it was originally to be called the T-72BU, later renamed to T-90).

It is currently the most modern tank in service with the Russian Ground Forces and Naval Infantry. T-90 uses a 125mm 2A46 smoothbore tank gun, 1G46 gunner sights, a new engine, and thermal sights.

The EMT-7 electromagnetic pulse (EMP) creator is used in testing but not fitted to T-90s in active service. It is designed and built by Uralvagonzavod, in Nizhny Tagil, Russia.

A contract, worth $800 million, was signed on October 26, 2006, for another 330 T-90M MBTs that were to be built with locally-sourced raw materials.

A third contract, worth $1.23 billion, was signed in December 2007 for 347 upgraded T-90Ms, the bulk of which will be licence-assembled built by Heavy Vehicles Factory.

The Indian Army would begin receiving its first T-90M main battle tank (MBT) in completely knocked-down condition from Russias Nizhny Tagil-based Uralvagonzavod JSC by the end of 2009.

In all, India plans to have 310 T-90S and 1,330 T-90M tanks in service by 2020 (total of 1,657 tanks by 2020).

Manufactured locally in India. Rs 10,000-crore purchase of 354 new T-90MS tanks for six tank regiments for the China border has been approved. This takes total no. of T-90 tanks to 2011.

3. T-72 Ajeya

The T-72 is a Soviet-designed main battle tank that entered production in 1971. It replaced the T-54/55 series as the workhorse of Soviet tank forces (while the T-64 and T-80 served as the Soviet high-technology tanks).

In front-line Russian service T-72 are being replaced by T-90, a modernized version of the T-72. While in the Ukraine T-72s are being replaced by the T-80 and T-84 MBTs. It has been exported and produced in many countries.

4. T-55

The T-54 and T-55 tanks were a series of main battle tanks designed in the Soviet Union. The first T-54 prototype appeared in March 1945, just as the Second World War ended.

The T-54/55 series eventually became the most-produced tank in history. Estimated production numbers for the series range from 86,000 to 100,000.

They were replaced by the T-62, T-64, T-72, T-80, and T-90 in the Soviet and Russian Armies, but remain in use by up to 50 other armies worldwide, some having received sophisticated retrofitting.

Up to 200 additional T-55s are kept in storage. T-55s were to be phased out in favour of T-90.Some T-55s may be converted into Tarmour AFV by Heavy Vehicles Factorys.

SWEET IS SLEEP TO ME AND EVEN MORE TO BE OF STONE,WHILE THE WRONG AND SHAME ENDURE.TO BE WITHOUT SIGHT OR SENSE IS A MOST HAPPY CHANGE FOR ME,THEREFORE DO NOT ROUSE ME. HUSH! SPEAK LOW. I said to God "I hate Life" God replied "Who asked you to love life? Just Love me & life will be beautiful" Living in favorable and unfavorable conditions is PART of living. Smiling in all those conditions is ART of living."Anytime you think you need to protect God, you can be sure you're worshiping an idol"