“The legal money of the People’s Republic of China shall be RMB. No entity or individual may reject the RMB payment for any public or private debt within the territory of the People’s Republic of China.”

What’s behind this?

Let me tell you a real story.

In Luohu District of Shenzhen, there were people from Hong Kong or Macau paying diner in Hong Kong dollar. The PBOC got so anxious to take actions against it.

Why did the PBOC make it such a big deal?

“RMB is the sole legal tender for both the Chinese nationals and foreign tourists.”

A notion similar to seigniorage is inflation tax, redistributing real resources to the currency issuer. We are talking about great financial gain to the government here.

When Zimbabwe added China’s official Renminbi to its basket of currencies, it enabled Chinese yuan to compete with US dollar in African markets.

Put simply, the value of RMB=the scale of circulation of RMB=the reach of government control.

Now let’s move on to bitcoin.

I believe even Satoshi Nakamoto never imagined bitcoin would have developed to what it is now today. At the very beginning, the mentioning of bitcoin reminded people of “untraceable, anonymity, and max number of 21 million”. This isn’t the case anymore. Now it’s all about the price.

“Bitcoin price reached over ￥3000”

“It hit a record high ￥5000.”

“Bitcoin price rises to ￥8000, higher than gold.”

There is an emerging group of bitcoin experts predicting the price of bitcoin, saying whoever holds one bitcoin will become a millionaire in 10 years.

Well, maybe you should think of the following questions before you get so optimistic.

Are you buying coffee with bitcoin?

Are you buying pizza with bitcoin?

How many physical stores accept bitcoin?

What’s the annual amount of bitcoin be used for instant settlement of payment?

What’s the market cap of bitcoin？

As of today, the market cap of bitcoin tops ＄16 billion. But the hard fact is that the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. This may be an inappropriate metaphor, but for now it’s like bitcoin has only be used in one province of China. And as price is decided by circulation, than I’d say the price of bitcoin has been way overvalued, nearly 1000 times.

If more businesses had the ability to accept bitcoin, it might encourage consumers to start obtaining and spending it, and vice versa. This is a chicken-and-egg problem.

Note: The Chinese author of this article is Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamed”Ou Guru” for his successful investment in real estate.

I have been living two lives. In one life, I am a news editor of 8btc. I translate news, interview bitcoiners and miners. In the other life, I am an AI bot programmed to .......Forget it! Who is gonna buy this BS! I'm just me, Cindy, nobody else.

COMMENTS(111)

2 years agoDoublerHunter

I don’t agree with him that bitcoin is overvalued in terms of price because we can’t get to this price point if there is no real support from the users or investors of bitcoin. Bitcoin is a controlled free currency and its price is always depending in the market so there is no proof that bitcoin is really overvalued. If bitcoin is overvalued then there is a lot of bitcoin users, holders and investors are doing panic selling because the price is not stable when overvalued. So i highly believed that bitcoin is not overvalued and it deserves what its current price now.

I think the economist is correct! Bitcoin itself is intrinsically worthless, just like seashells are worthless but were used as money in the past.Bitcoin is now worth >$1000 just because it has gained acceptance by more and more people- this is where its value lies.

He is just speculating. Just like the other guy who says that “it will reach 500k$ in the future.”For now, people believe that it’s price should be around 1200$ and it can either go to 500k$ or 1$ in the future. All of those are possible. The bad thing about bitcoin is that it’s open source. That means it not unique. Any altcoin can do the same thing as bitcoin. Ironically, being open source also makes bitcoin what it is now and makes it powerful.

the guys that say its 1000x too expensive. are the ones with only $1000 to their name wished they bought at $1 so they would later be millionares when they scream for it to be worth 1000x more after buying.the guys that say bitcoin should be 500,000 are the ones that bought at probably $500 and are screaming for it to be worth $500k to then be millionaires when buying only 2btc.i have seen this in the past. many peoples ‘future price’ valuations are usually linked to what they hold or wished they held. and then calculated to a future profit of $1millEG someone screaming bitcoin should be $33k each probably only has 30btci dont know where this mindset came from but many people i speak to have this “i wanna be a fiat millionaire” mindset.not realising by the time they become fiat millionaires. hyper inflation will only by them a loaf of bread with it.i do laugh at those that only care about a future FIAT value while pretending “banks are bad, governments are bad”

bitcoin has been around for 8 years and so far there has been 100 years worth of bullshit about it and its price. if we want to start reading all there is out there talking about price, speculating without knowing what speculation means and how price of bitcoin has been rising so far, we will get our heads exploded.and it is so funny seeing people who have never even seen a chart in their whole lives talk about bitcoin price future!

As a long time Bitcoiner, honestly, I do not want to see the price of one Bitcoin too high. It will keep average human like me and many others out of the game. It will only attract investors who will hold onto the coins for long term and hence no average business will accept Bitcoin. It will be more like stock and not a currency. However, at this point in time, I don’t think Bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued. This is the prefect price for Bitcoin – around 1000 USD per Bitcoin.(Just my personal opinion).

Who can say that Bitcoin price is overestimated? It’s the market and the factors that influence it who deteremines the Bitcoin price. Price is volatile and changes all the time and despite some theories I don’t think the price could be deliberately manipulated. Besides, I don’t think that high value could harm Bitcoin.

Sure but the cost of mining bitcoin speaks something else, in average you’ll need to invest $2000 and earn it back after 2 month and profit from there forward, basically it is more logical to buy bitcoins rather than investing in mining hardware and start mining and only then you’ll need the cheapest energy cost as possible to ROI faster than 2 moths.

Quote from: jacktheking on April 12, 2017, 11:41:10 AM
As a long time Bitcoiner, honestly, I do not want to see the price of one Bitcoin too high. It will keep average human like me and many others out of the game. It will only attract investors who will hold onto the coins for long term and hence no average business will accept Bitcoin. It will be more like stock and not a currency. However, at this point in time, I don’t think Bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued. This is the prefect price for Bitcoin – around 1000 USD per Bitcoin.(Just my personal opinion).

Quote from: DoublerHunter on April 12, 2017, 09:37:55 AM
I don’t agree with him that bitcoin is overvalued in terms of price because we can’t get to this price point if there is no real support from the users or investors of bitcoin. Bitcoin is a controlled free currency and its price is always depending in the market so there is no proof that bitcoin is really overvalued. If bitcoin is overvalued then there is a lot of bitcoin users, holders and investors are doing panic selling because the price is not stable when overvalued. So i highly believed that bitcoin is not overvalued and it deserves what its current price now.

In a way you have a point, and also OP do have a point. Bitcoin do exist because of us, and it was made for us to use, we all know that the bitcoin’s price in the first time that it was launched here in the cryptocurrency world is so little, but time passed by—right now, bitcoin’s price is higher than we thought, it is not stable because it was always fluctuating, and this is because every day that passed by, many people are turning themselves on using bitcoin, also the investors and buyers, that is why we come up to a conclusion that it is overvalued, which is a good thing.

LOL he must have some mental problem or he is a guy who have never seen the world outside walls of his house. He must look at the number of transactions in darkweb and also he can look at number of bitcoin transactions and volume of bitcoin that are being transferred every second. 24 hour transaction volume says different storyhttps://blockchain.info/statsQuote
Estimated Transaction Volume (USD) 335,309,068.62 USD

I guess he meant undervalue 1000times, if not the likes of Chinese miners holding the space at ransom, the price of BTC would have been at least $1500 by now. Once the scaling solution has been resolved the numbers of users will definitely increase.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

No I do not agree with him, never heard of this guy also and this statement is more of a opportunist statement rather than any factual statement. It seems he just wishes to have attention on himself and decided to make a random statement. I am 1000% sure this guy does not understand Bitcoins at all, he wanted his 2 minutes fame and you just gave him. Bitcoin is controlled by demand and supply more demand less supply price shoots up. And as far him not many people buy with Bitcoin, tell him his freney Japan has passed a bill allowing Bitcoins. And look in this forum so many people are buying with Bitcoins.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

Chinese government is very scared of bitcoin because of foreign currency crossing oversea too much . They use the chinese economists to make foreign currency market orientation and say bitcoin price is 1,000 times overvalued but it’s really not overvalued . Many people are using bitcoin as central payment method and bitcoin becomes more interesting than the other payment method nowadays.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

Whether he is right or wrong, he is entitled to his opinion, because as a respectable figure in his area of specialization, I am sure he has a reason for arriving at that conclusion. However, in other to support him on his opinion, I would like to understand the basis of his conclusion but based on my conclusion, I dont think its totally true that bitcoin is over-valued by that amount because day by day the adoption of bitcoin increases, consideration for acceptance is also increasing as well.

What’s the annual amount of bitcoin gold be used for instant settlement of payment?

What’s the market cap of bitcoin gold?

Bitcoin doesn’t have to be a currency to have value. It does not have to be gold either. It will be what it will be. If use cases will appear, so will the value. The whole article is just a stupid clickbait with one argument that people are using since the genesis (block) – not enough places accept BTC, so it is not a real money! Hurr, durr, go f* yourself with this nonsense.

Its a decentralized currencie is already a huge problem to others centralized currencies, and lets compara bitcoin with pounds, 1 bitcoin are around 800 pounds, soo from my point of view there is no overvalue at all, there is a big investment and big interest over bitcoin as well crypto world, people does like freedom.

Over valued or not, I bought a Xbox One with my Bitcoin from a online market place and they accepted it. ….. So while someone accepts it, I will use it…. The purchase came with a huge discount for Bitcoin customers too, so I actually saved a bunch of money using it. I am one happy customer. Next purchase will be 2 games from Steam ….using my over valued bitcoins… So fck that Chinese economist.

the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption.

I actually don’t agree (at this point in time). I can buy my pizza online with bitcoin with ease and done it a couple of times now. When transaction fee was a few cents it made sense and Bitcoin was cheap to store and to use. That’s not the case now. My banks annual cc fee and visa fee is about the same price (as using bitcoin) and better service. Bitcoin is of course more than cheap transactions but Cores fee market destroyed a great use case of Bitcoin.

At the very beginning, the mentioning of bitcoin reminded people of “untraceable, anonymity, and max number of 21 million”. This isn’t the case anymore. Now it’s all about the price.

Expecially in the /r/bitcoin sub. Great to see /r/btc got a slightly different focus. Unhealthy if everyone got a short term ‘get rich’ attitude and focus.

Everyone can have their own opinion of how much they personally value an item. But saying “the value is X” where X is their personal preference rather than the value assigned by the entire market, is a tad arrogant.

Can you make jewelry with bitcoin gold?
Does bitcoin gold have any industrial and medical uses?
Can one make zillions of clones of bitcoin gold just like the original?

Gold is a shiny yellow malleable metal, highly conductive, reflective, and resistant to corrosion, that cannot be manufactured even by companies or governments with huge resources, and has no good substitutes in many of its final uses.

A bitcoin is a purely imaginary lump of nothing, that “exists” only in the weak sense that there is a ledger out there saying that you own so many of them.

Technically, there is nothing that prevents an arbitrary amount of bitcoin being added to that ledger, or anyone creating another ledger with zillions of new nothings that are just like bitcoin and its ledger.

There are no legal obstacles to such developments. Indeed, there is a strong monetary incentive for the second one, which has happened hundred of times already.

As for adding zillions more bitcoins to the bitcoin ledger, only some bicoiners are stronly against it happening. It would be indifferent to most of the rest, and a boon for some of them — which happen to include those people who own the bitcoin network and maintain its ledger.

18 months ago I did 40% of my business in bitcoin ( paying hosting, seo, contractors) and it was extremely useful. Now, however, my developers ( in Vietnam/India) have asked to be paid in dollars, and one ISP no longer accepts bitcoin.

So much utility has been squandered in this feckless “fee market” nonsense.

I am sorry, but I think you can’t get the big picture here. I tried to explain, that if you take anything that has value you will always find differences between this and anything else. Money and gold are very different (you can’t pay in many places with gold, you can’t make jewelry with cash), and yet, they both have value.

It is not about gold nor money, this discussion is about value and where it comes from. You can’t send gold/cash as easily as BTC, you can’t take them through customs office using just your mind, you can’t emigrate from war torn country with any of those things, except bitcoin.

Not even mentioning black markets.

Once again, you should not dismiss stock because you can’t make tooth out of it, nor land because you can’t pay for bread with it.

All the real uses of bitcoins are yet to be found. Its vale comes from it uses, and in digital and/or unstable and/or under surveillance world, it might be the better invention than money itself.

In the end it all comes to the faith we have in this or that assets. Gold might be rendered useless if medicine and science will find cheaper and more useful composit material. Even more – If asteroid mining (vide: Google) kicks in, it might be as “valuable” as iron is right now.

There is no sure price of anything in the world of future. Not for gold, not for USD, not Bitcoin.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.

A ha; I would like to read this. Would be funny after 8 years someone to give adequate reasons why he believes something like thatQuote
Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.

Why not. Yesterday, I read this that in Japan after the recent legislation about 260,000 stores will accept bitcoin as payment this summer.Quote
A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

I found the english translation from this post here I don’t know the famous ‘guru’ economist but if someone wants to search for him in english google the first result is only this thread. Therefore, I am pretty confident that he is not so famous as OP stated and I believe that is only a charlatan who tries to create reputation about his name. Moreover I would like to point out OP that according this article the author(Ou Chengxiao) in chinese language is not an economist but an investor in real estate.

It is not about gold nor money, this discussion is about value and where it comes from. … In the end it all comes to the faith we have in this or that assets.

But that is my point. Gold’s value does not come from blind faith, or even from its scarcity. There are many, many things that are quite scarce, even more so than gold, yet totally worthless.

While gold’s market price now is ridiculously inflated because of speculation and hype, it has a floor price (maybe $300/oz or less) because of its demand for concrete final uses, which is likely to persist for many decades to come. The speculation merely amplifies this fundamental demand.

Bitcoins, on the other hand, have no utility on their own. The bitcoin payment network might render a useful service, but the bitcoins themselves play no role in it. The network would render the same service if the miners and users switched to any altcoin compatible with their equipment; in which case bitcoins would have no use at all.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

I agree and this is why I’m keeping a couple bitcoins aside for retirement. Not gonna spend them I add small amounts each month and I will keep that for when bitcoin takes off and the. I’ll be able to retire. Everyone should be doing this right now. Stash them coins.

Lol 1000x overvalued! Hahaha I’ll gladly take a few bitcoins for a few bucks off of him. No problem. The American dollar is 10,000x overvalued IMO. Now it’s a fact, because I said it. Although if they just keep printing money and printing money every year soon they’ll be at their true value (worthless).

Mao Zedong’s “revolution” was funded by foreign bankers.Today, china is still heavily influenced by foreign banks.That’s why china will always push for “regulation” or if they can’t have regulatory control over crypto, they will try to destroy it.China will always work in the best interests of bankers rather than what is best for ordinary people.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

The one that said bitcoin is overvalued is the one that never used bitcoin, and the one that too afraid to try a new thing, I think bitcoin is still undervalued, there are still so many things that can be achieved from bitcoin, but I understand that bitcoin still in progress of developing so there will be a lot of controversial and there will be a lot of people underestimate bitcoin

Well, all I can say is that this guy must be feeling so authoritative. Is he the brother of Satoshi Nakamoto. In fact, he is just unknown and whatever he might be saying has no bearing on the value and the future of Bitcoin. The value of Bitcoin now is reflecting also the possible future value it might have…it is just the same with stocks as businesses with good future can have more valuable stocks. He can just be saying it so tat Bitcoin can devalue just like what China did to yuan and then he can buy more Bitcoin…must be feeling bad that he did not bought Bitcoin when the value was still low. Funny guy…at least he is now part of the Bitcoin history on the naysayers side.

you mean to say bitcoin was suppose to be valued about a dollar right about now imo bitcoin has seen its worst days and put into consideration how long its taken to get at its current price…its valued right and we are responsible for its value!

Quote from: 7788bitcoin on April 12, 2017, 10:46:19 AM
I think the economist is correct! Bitcoin itself is intrinsically worthless, just like seashells are worthless but were used as money in the past.Bitcoin is now worth >$1000 just because it has gained acceptance by more and more people- this is where its value lies.
Nothing really has intrinsic value, but as people begin to find uses for it then the need for that product or that service goes up and then we see people willing to pay for it, at first bitcoin had no value except as an incredible experiment but as it gained acceptance we have been able to reach this point where a single bitcoin is worth much money.

Nah, when you put a factual number on something like that it’s because he thinks it’s a fact. He did some sort of math and decided it was about 964x overvalued so rounded that up to 1000 for dramatic affect. He’s just your typical middle child syndrome narc that’s looking for some attention. We should stop giving it to him.

Quote from: mindrust on April 12, 2017, 10:52:35 AM
He is just speculating. Just like the other guy who says that “it will reach 500k$ in the future.”For now, people believe that it’s price should be around 1200$ and it can either go to 500k$ or 1$ in the future. All of those are possible. The bad thing about bitcoin is that it’s open source. That means it not unique. Any altcoin can do the same thing as bitcoin. Ironically, being open source also makes bitcoin what it is now and makes it powerful.

Exactly what I say, especially because of the open source peer to peer nature of the blockchain it can demolish itself completely or it can rise continuously for the same reason. Almost as if a democracy: we the users decide ultimately, in a perfect world, what the value is of our beloved bitcoin. It really does boil down to you and me and how we spend our coin.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

Huge Bitcoin price is in speculation and not actual use. Huge part of Bitcoin economy are altcoins. Bitcoins price would be way lower if it would have higher inflation.

Quote from: 7788bitcoin on April 12, 2017, 10:46:19 AM
I think the economist is correct! Bitcoin itself is intrinsically worthless, just like seashells are worthless but were used as money in the past.Bitcoin is now worth >$1000 just because it has gained acceptance by more and more people- this is where its value lies.
I had a really good laugh reading that some people are really thinking that bitcoin is some kind of a Ponzi scheme.Tell me you geniuses, how is it possible that bitcoin is a ponzi, when the source code is available for everyone, who has internet connection?There is no mystery in it, everyone can look into the code, because it is open source right?Bitcoin is worthless?It may be overvalued a little bit, but as we can see we dont have some strange price drops from 1200$ level to 1000$ just for few seconds, and im sure that would happen if bitcoin price would be overvalued.Im waiting for some real proofs that we should pay 1000 times less for 1 bitcoin than we do now. So far, I have found none.

Quote from: 7788bitcoin on April 12, 2017, 10:46:19 AM
I think the economist is correct! Bitcoin itself is intrinsically worthless, just like seashells are worthless but were used as money in the past.Bitcoin is now worth >$1000 just because it has gained acceptance by more and more people- this is where its value lies.
I had a really good laugh reading that some people are really thinking that bitcoin is some kind of a Ponzi scheme.Tell me you geniuses, how is it possible that bitcoin is a ponzi, when the source code is available for everyone, who has internet connection?There is no mystery in it, everyone can look into the code, because it is open source right?Bitcoin is worthless?It may be overvalued a little bit, but as we can see we dont have some strange price drops from 1200$ level to 1000$ just for few seconds, and im sure that would happen if bitcoin price would be overvalued.Im waiting for some real proofs that we should pay 1000 times less for 1 bitcoin than we do now. So far, I have found none.

Exactly. If bitcoins are a ponzi scheme then my whole life is a ponzi scheme too. Email is a ponzi. They steal your computer’s electricity to send messages accross the world. That’s a waste of electricity! Ponzi! Also, the internet is a ponzi. Someone somewhere is making money off of the internet. I know, it’s open source but someone is making money!? Omg ponzi. Shock of a lifetime here folks.

Quote from: Dorky on April 12, 2017, 02:59:17 PM
I recently estimated the value of bitcoin today, if it is used to facilitate global trades, at over $220,000.

Actually this kind of calculations – “bullish future estimations” – make Bitcoin worth $1200 at this moment. If present use was the major factor in its valuation – e.g. people thinking that Bitcoin would have the same acceptance like now, forever – its price would be much lower.Economists often adhere to the Monetarist school and use the quantity theory of money (M*V=P*Q). Particularly V (money velocity) and Q (transaction number) are pretty low at the moment, as most Bitcoins are “hodl’d”. That would limit the “theoretic price” of a Bitcoin token (which depends on P) if we hadn’t bullish future expectations. (I would actually like to see a calculation of this kind for Bitcoin, e.g. taking into account the daily transaction volume.)

Quote from: 7788bitcoin on April 12, 2017, 10:46:19 AM
I think the economist is correct! Bitcoin itself is intrinsically worthless, just like seashells are worthless but were used as money in the past.Bitcoin is now worth >$1000 just because it has gained acceptance by more and more people- this is where its value lies.
I had a really good laugh reading that some people are really thinking that bitcoin is some kind of a Ponzi scheme.Tell me you geniuses, how is it possible that bitcoin is a ponzi, when the source code is available for everyone, who has internet connection?There is no mystery in it, everyone can look into the code, because it is open source right?Bitcoin is worthless?It may be overvalued a little bit, but as we can see we dont have some strange price drops from 1200$ level to 1000$ just for few seconds, and im sure that would happen if bitcoin price would be overvalued.Im waiting for some real proofs that we should pay 1000 times less for 1 bitcoin than we do now. So far, I have found none.

Exactly. If bitcoins are a ponzi scheme then my whole life is a ponzi scheme too. Email is a ponzi. They steal your computer’s electricity to send messages accross the world. That’s a waste of electricity! Ponzi! Also, the internet is a ponzi. Someone somewhere is making money off of the internet. I know, it’s open source but someone is making money!? Omg ponzi. Shock of a lifetime here folks.

This is hilarious, thanks for the laughter guys, I can’t stop chuckling. I wish there was a like button. “PONZI” is one of those terms people stopped using correctly in the recent years. Sort of like the word “spam”. Usually when someone calls bitcoin a ponzi they either have deep pockets in traditional fiat somewhere and they are threatened by their crumbling future or they simply don’t know how to do their own research and they believe what there old uncle said at dinner last week when bitcoin was the subject.

I heard many times that bitcoin is one big ponzi scheme, but that was from the people outside bitcoin community. For me this is one more newbie that comes here to talk bad about bitcoin, or digital currencies, and that is opposite from my beliefs. Digital era is knocking on our doors, people are online all the time with little computers in their pockets, sooner or later everything will be digital. Price of bitcoin is not overvalued, its just reflection of the demand and supply, and more people is involved now then ever before.I don`t agree with this Chinese economist, he have his opinion and I have mine, period.

Quote from: Barbut on April 15, 2017, 12:45:44 AM
Digital era is knocking on our doors, people are online all the time with little computers in their pockets, sooner or later everything will be digital. Price of bitcoin is not overvalued, its just reflection of the demand and supply, and more people is involved now then ever before
Cheers! I agree, totally. Those who resist the concept of digital money are going to be surprised when there bank notes become worthless. The naysayers will simply be left behind, and we can look back through the wake of our digital waves and say “told ya!”

Quote from: Barbut on April 15, 2017, 12:45:44 AM
Digital era is knocking on our doors, people are online all the time with little computers in their pockets, sooner or later everything will be digital. Price of bitcoin is not overvalued, its just reflection of the demand and supply, and more people is involved now then ever before
Cheers! I agree, totally. Those who resist the concept of digital money are going to be surprised when there bank notes become worthless. The naysayers will simply be left behind, and we can look back through the wake of our digital waves and say “told ya!”
Untill banks launch their own blockchain currency and Bitcoin got rekt.

Quote from: Barbut on April 15, 2017, 12:45:44 AM
Digital era is knocking on our doors, people are online all the time with little computers in their pockets, sooner or later everything will be digital. Price of bitcoin is not overvalued, its just reflection of the demand and supply, and more people is involved now then ever before
Cheers! I agree, totally. Those who resist the concept of digital money are going to be surprised when there bank notes become worthless. The naysayers will simply be left behind, and we can look back through the wake of our digital waves and say “told ya!”

However, fiats are still in use and many banks started implementing online banking facilities and other mode of bank facilities in the rural areas as well. Price value of the concern currency and share value bank will remain same only, where will become worthless. that do not know. I wish to bitcoin to rule overall bank institution and expecting bitcoin will be made international transaction to transfer the mone instead of paying forex charges and other fees over it.

Quote from: DoublerHunter on April 12, 2017, 09:37:55 AM
I don’t agree with him that bitcoin is overvalued in terms of price because we can’t get to this price point if there is no real support from the users or investors of bitcoin. Bitcoin is a controlled free currency and its price is always depending in the market so there is no proof that bitcoin is really overvalued. If bitcoin is overvalued then there is a lot of bitcoin users, holders and investors are doing panic selling because the price is not stable when overvalued. So i highly believed that bitcoin is not overvalued and it deserves what its current price now.
Surely,Bitcoin price is valued based on the demand for it among investors.Today’s bitcoin price reflects its original value.It deserves its price.Its price increases or decreases in proportion to increase or decrease in demand for bitcoins.

Quote from: Barbut on April 15, 2017, 12:45:44 AM
Digital era is knocking on our doors, people are online all the time with little computers in their pockets, sooner or later everything will be digital. Price of bitcoin is not overvalued, its just reflection of the demand and supply, and more people is involved now then ever before
Cheers! I agree, totally. Those who resist the concept of digital money are going to be surprised when there bank notes become worthless. The naysayers will simply be left behind, and we can look back through the wake of our digital waves and say “told ya!”
Untill banks launch their own blockchain currency and Bitcoin got rekt.
Bitcoin won’t be destroyed by any blockchain currency from banks. It would be a centralised coin mined by banks with a huge premine that results in “stabilised” prices with its mass adoption (and inflation, for that matter). People who are genuinely interested in Bitcoin or in proper cryptocurrencies would keep their money in that Bitcoin or cryptocurrency, especially since people’s identifiers in a blockchain from the bank would most likely be very traceable by banks and governments.Bitcoin is overvalued if you only view it as a currency rather than a store of value, but in my view it’s both. It’s important that its asset-like qualities are recognised by investors due to its artificial scarcity and that will result in huge price increases which are necessary for stability and potentially more adoption in the future.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

It’s possible that the price of bitcoins is based on a demand only. What I mean is that people may want bitcoins for the potential and are demanding it as an investment which makes the price go up. But if people want it for that price, then isn’t that what it is worth?

i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

bitcoin price is suply and demand, if demand big so bitcoin price can incraeseif you say 1000 dollar over value, and you want bitcoin price down to 10 dollar, i think bitcoin can die if real down to 10 dollaror another coin can replace position bitcoin

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

The guy is just stating his opinion, so it does not mean that it is true. I can say and state that Bitcoin is 100,000 times undervalued and state the reason about adoption. This means each person have their own opinion over Bitcoin price but in the reality, the price tells us what is the current Price Value of Bitcoin.

Quote from: 7788bitcoin on April 12, 2017, 10:46:19 AM
I think the economist is correct! Bitcoin itself is intrinsically worthless, just like seashells are worthless but were used as money in the past.Bitcoin is now worth >$1000 just because it has gained acceptance by more and more people- this is where its value lies.
Agreed, but think for a moment about the population that has given bitcoin its value: Speculators. Drug dealers. Arms dealers. Illegal pornographers. Hardcore gamblers. Speculators. Speculators. Speculators. Don’t know about you, but that gives me pause. Interest rates have been at about zero for years, and people have been borrowing money on the cheap for years–and assets have inflated like crazy (stocks, houses, bitcoin, etc.). You watch if interest rates start to climb. Precious metals will start going up again, and bitcoin may head to the toilet. It’s scary if you think about it.

Quote from: TryAngle on April 15, 2017, 07:29:35 PM
It’s possible that the price of bitcoins is based on a demand only. What I mean is that people may want bitcoins for the potential and are demanding it as an investment which makes the price go up. But if people want it for that price, then isn’t that what it is worth?
That’s it, in a way. The demand is far greater than supply, but we have to agree that there is a supply. Out of the coins in circulation much is forever gone, lost on some unused wallers or damaged hard drives. Much is in the hands of early holders, who took their profits and have enough to live comfortably, so they have no need to sell their stashed coins. This limits the real supply, the one available to new consumers, to maybe 50% of the coins mined to date. The prices are just an illustration of the current state of affairs.

Quote from: 7788bitcoin on April 12, 2017, 10:46:19 AM
I think the economist is correct! Bitcoin itself is intrinsically worthless, just like seashells are worthless but were used as money in the past.Bitcoin is now worth >$1000 just because it has gained acceptance by more and more people- this is where its value lies.
The worth of any object is determined by different variables and it does entertain the masses and with the limited amount of the product it is quite natural to have the valuation it is having at the moment and if you really want to compare something with seashells it is better to look out for gold and petroleum as seashells also have its own price.

my opinion on this is that the value of bitcoin should be equal to the one needed to secure the nertwork by miners, since miners are the “guards” you need to pay themthis payment is the true value of bitcoin, anything below that and the network will fall and begin to be unsecurethe minimum value should be no less than the one needed fro an antminer to pay for the consumption and earn something for the minernow you need 5-6 antminer to have the same revenue of one antminer in the past, this is due to the diff that keep increase, this is no different than having a single antminer consuming 5-6 times more….

Quote from: zimmah on April 16, 2017, 02:11:16 PM
So you’re saying bitcoin should be $1 per bitcoin.there’s no way that’s ever going to happen, it has not been that low since years and it won’t ever even get close to that low of a value.
I dont believe in overvalued or undervalued kind of talk. The price represents the good at that moment of time. Only in huge dumps or pumps you can talk about over or undervalued assets. Anayway btc is flat now, waiting for scaling news. Positive is up, negative is down. Its always been that way. When people think its overvalued just wait untill it reaches the price you want to pay for it. Its so simple. Looks like not a lot of people want to pay higher than the current price because of scaling. So its likely we will go down untill people think muhh cheap.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?
Current price speak the truth, people still want bitcoin simply because it has big potential with many of its advantages to grow up more than current price level. What he said just pure speculation of his thought. For now, bitcoin cannot state as currency even though we can buy some goods using bitcoin but I consider it as another medium of exchange. If we want say bitcoin as currency, yes ; bitcoin need to scale and accepted by many people over the world, maybe about quarter of population will be enough. For now, I consider bitcoin like gold, or commodity but not a currency.

I really don’t know how to determine what real price is at the moment so i can’t be sure is this true? Once price was 1$, so from this point of view price is already 1000x more, and demand now is 1000x in relation to the mentioned period, right? How we can be so sure that we are not victims of manipulative games?

Do not fall in this FUD, because that is what it is, nothing else. I would not say we have a lack of bussinesses accepting Bitcoin when we can count Amazon, Steam, Microsoft, Lamborghini and many more.

Quote from: tunctioncloud on April 16, 2017, 05:48:22 PM
Do not fall in this FUD, because that is what it is, nothing else. I would not say we have a lack of bussinesses accepting Bitcoin when we can count Amazon, Steam, Microsoft, Lamborghini and many more.

There are still quite a lot of businesses that first accepted btc and after a short period of time they dont want it anymore because of its volatility.

Quote from: tunctioncloud on April 16, 2017, 05:48:22 PM
Do not fall in this FUD, because that is what it is, nothing else. I would not say we have a lack of bussinesses accepting Bitcoin when we can count Amazon, Steam, Microsoft, Lamborghini and many more.

There are still quite a lot of businesses that first accepted btc and after a short period of time they dont want it anymore because of its volatility.
There are quite a lot of people have different plans of implementing bitcoin. Only the volatile nature and the user base are the one that are responsible for the price variation. So nothing seems to be overvalued, the growth is a stabilized one.

Quote from: tunctioncloud on April 16, 2017, 05:48:22 PM
Do not fall in this FUD, because that is what it is, nothing else. I would not say we have a lack of bussinesses accepting Bitcoin when we can count Amazon, Steam, Microsoft, Lamborghini and many more.

There are still quite a lot of businesses that first accepted btc and after a short period of time they dont want it anymore because of its volatility.
There are quite a lot of people have different plans of implementing bitcoin. Only the volatile nature and the user base are the one that are responsible for the price variation. So nothing seems to be overvalued, the growth is a stabilized one.

It seems like eventually whether we like it or not, Bitcoin will BECOME the centralized currency, or something digitally equivalent. A type of universally accepted currency is a way to make the world function more efficiently and it’s probably not long before a group of suits declares themselves the “New World Bitcoinologysts” hehe. . I don’t suggest the fulfilling of any prophecies but I think it is happening anyway. Perhaps it will have a less sinister undertone than the massses are expecting. Who knows?

Quote from: tunctioncloud on April 16, 2017, 05:48:22 PM
Do not fall in this FUD, because that is what it is, nothing else. I would not say we have a lack of bussinesses accepting Bitcoin when we can count Amazon, Steam, Microsoft, Lamborghini and many more.

There are still quite a lot of businesses that first accepted btc and after a short period of time they dont want it anymore because of its volatility.
There are quite a lot of people have different plans of implementing bitcoin. Only the volatile nature and the user base are the one that are responsible for the price variation. So nothing seems to be overvalued, the growth is a stabilized one.

It seems like eventually whether we like it or not, Bitcoin will BECOME the centralized currency, or something digitally equivalent. A type of universally accepted currency is a way to make the world function more efficiently and it’s probably not long before a group of suits declares themselves the “New World Bitcoinologysts” hehe. . I don’t suggest the fulfilling of any prophecies but I think it is happening anyway. Perhaps it will have a less sinister undertone than the massses are expecting. Who knows?
Being accepted doesn’t make it centralised. It is unfortunate that Bitcoin pretty much is going to naturally become more centralised as time goes on, but a master currency having a lot of money doesn’t inherently make it centralised.

how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

Quote from: DoublerHunter on April 12, 2017, 09:37:55 AM
I don’t agree with him that bitcoin is overvalued in terms of price because we can’t get to this price point if there is no real support from the users or investors of bitcoin. Bitcoin is a controlled free currency and its price is always depending in the market so there is no proof that bitcoin is really overvalued. If bitcoin is overvalued then there is a lot of bitcoin users, holders and investors are doing panic selling because the price is not stable when overvalued. So i highly believed that bitcoin is not overvalued and it deserves what its current price now.

Quote from: DoublerHunter on April 12, 2017, 09:37:55 AM
I don’t agree with him that bitcoin is overvalued in terms of price because we can’t get to this price point if there is no real support from the users or investors of bitcoin. Bitcoin is a controlled free currency and its price is always depending in the market so there is no proof that bitcoin is really overvalued. If bitcoin is overvalued then there is a lot of bitcoin users, holders and investors are doing panic selling because the price is not stable when overvalued. So i highly believed that bitcoin is not overvalued and it deserves what its current price now.
it’s exactly about the market. So his point is tt adoption=market, if the current adoption is limited, than the market is small.

Quote from: 7788bitcoin on April 12, 2017, 10:46:19 AM
I think the economist is correct! Bitcoin itself is intrinsically worthless, just like seashells are worthless but were used as money in the past.Bitcoin is now worth >$1000 just because it has gained acceptance by more and more people- this is where its value lies.

Of course the value is determined by the demand and Supply and how much demand it has among the people. Bitcoin is the most worthy currency these days and since everyone wants to have it, its value will continue to rise.

Quote from: European Central Bank on April 12, 2017, 03:00:57 PM
the first mistake this guy is making is calling it a currency. it really isn’t for now. for most people it’s an asset.
the problem is if asset can not flow freely, than what’s the point for holding such an asset?

Quote from: bitbunnny on April 12, 2017, 11:50:44 AM
Who can say that Bitcoin price is overestimated? It’s the market and the factors that influence it who deteremines the Bitcoin price. Price is volatile and changes all the time and despite some theories I don’t think the price could be deliberately manipulated. Besides, I don’t think that high value could harm Bitcoin.
His point is that the value of one currency=the scale of circulation of the currency=the reach of government control. He also mentioned that what’s behind each currency is seigniorage. You can read the whole story here: http://news.8btc.com/the-price-of-your-bitcoin-is-1000-times-overvalued

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?
Gold is just a metal and diamond is just a stone, why not we call their value too as overpriced ? Unlike crypto currency, gold/Diamonds are being valued by every part of this world ? All these people are so childish to value just a metal or a stone ?Your old shirt will get millions of dollars in an auction if you are a rockstar. Yes, demand determines everything. Bitcoin has demand and it has value. There is no meaning of arguing it is 1000x more valued, there are people ready to buy with 1000x more so it has those values.

^this. There may be a bubble, that’s impossible to tell until after the point but we’re definitely nowhere near 1000x overvalued hahaha. To say that just makes you sound like incompetent newb in the whole aspect of cryptocurrencies.

Quote from: maku on April 22, 2017, 09:30:26 PM
Knowing deflationary nature of Bitcoin they should also store at least some portion of bitcoin payments, it would be amazing long term investing strategy.

That would give the price a boost in the long term as it means that less coins get sold by third party payment processors, but it’s only a fantasy. Volatility scares off merchants to keep a certain portion of their coins. It’s easy talking for us as we can just keep holding our coins. Merchants need to pay tax over everything, use that money to buy stock, pay out employees, pay rent, etc. They simply can’t afford to take a hit of 20-30% if the price suddenly happens to go down like that. Most merchants rely on constant liquidity in form of fiat — holding Bitcoin isn’t an option for them.

Quote from: maku on April 22, 2017, 09:30:26 PM
Knowing deflationary nature of Bitcoin they should also store at least some portion of bitcoin payments, it would be amazing long term investing strategy.

That would give the price a boost in the long term as it means that less coins get sold by third party payment processors, but it’s only a fantasy. Volatility scares off merchants to keep a certain portion of their coins. It’s easy talking for us as we can just keep holding our coins. Merchants need to pay tax over everything, use that money to buy stock, pay out employees, pay rent, etc. They simply can’t afford to take a hit of 20-30% if the price suddenly happens to go down like that. Most merchants rely on constant liquidity in form of fiat — holding Bitcoin isn’t an option for them.

I think price increasing due to deflation is real and not a fantasy. Even if some merchants are quite afraid to accept Bitcoin, enthusiast will definitely push the price up. You can look at the coin collection society, the rarer the coin the higher the price, even if the coin cannot be used to buy items in the market.

Quote from: pitham1 on April 20, 2017, 01:36:25 AM
So a Bitcoin should actually be worth $1? That is ridiculous.Some millionaires like Draper would be able to buy up all the bitcoins in the world. That is not going to happen any time soon.
Lol this could be the end of bitcoin currency if bitcoin will worth for 1$ only or maybe those investors and business man who had coins for savings are going to cry and will quit bitcoin for sure I will buy lots of coins to be stock to be millionaire someday. Time can only say what will happens about bitcoin it self hence we can see it happens but we are the reason behind.

He doesn’t weigh in the utility that bitcoin has in the black and grey markets. The myth of bitcoin becoming a practical tool of finance has been debunked in professional financial circles years ago already. But still there are a lot of shenanigans going on that are attracted to the unregulated and opaque nature of the bitcoin market system. Illegal money is the invisible pillar that is holding up the price. If it would be pure speculation, then it would have collapsed already.

Quote from: franky1 on April 12, 2017, 11:07:43 AM
i do laugh at those that only care about a future FIAT value while pretending “banks are bad, governments are bad”
I share your opinion, but we also can’t focus on Bitcoin alone and detach ourselves from linking it to fiat, not yet.We don’t and we won’t have “bitcoin only” economy, not in the foreseeable future.I don’t want to focus on fiat to btc value relation, but I have no choice, although flawed by design, this is the only benchmark we have.

Bitcoin needs fiat because fixed supply just doesn’t work with a currency. The dynamic development and progress of the economy always needs dynamic supply of currency, because without it, there would be no value stability. And the lack of value stability is the criteria of a low quality currency. Even high inflation is better if it’s devaluation is happening in a predictable rate. Unpredictable value is the worse, because it’s impossible to make any future estimates while using an unpredictable value currency as a point of reference. If you make your calculations for a 3 year long project with currency, that can go -+500% in that time-frame, then you’re gonna have a bad time.A lot of youtube educated bitcoiners try to demonize not only banking in general, but also all the economic and financial practical issues that counteract with their hopes of becoming rich by bitcoin speculation.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

It’s possible that the price of bitcoins is based on a demand only. What I mean is that people may want bitcoins for the potential and are demanding it as an investment which makes the price go up. But if people want it for that price, then isn’t that what it is worth?

I happen to think bitcoin is way “overvalued ” but not 1000 times in that i think at least 80% of its current price is speculators but in a way it does not really matter.Take me as an example. I own about $8,000 worth of bitcoin. I have $5,000 worth to use eg send to family, friends overseas in an emergency (as a sort of western union). I see $5000 would get a plane ticket out or an operation etc if no travel insurance etc.The other $3000 is to have just in case the price goes up big time.Now say the price “crashes” to $200 which is where I think it “should” be. To have the $5,000 worth set aside I then need 25 bitcoins and I have only 8. So i will buy at least 17 more to get back to where I need to be. I think there would be alot of people out there like me ie have good reasons to buy more bitcoins as the price drops by a decent amount ie at least say 40%.So aside from speculators creating “demand’ actual bitcoin users will also create demand so it is not overvalued by 1000 times

Quote from: franky1 on April 12, 2017, 11:07:43 AM
i do laugh at those that only care about a future FIAT value while pretending “banks are bad, governments are bad”
I share your opinion, but we also can’t focus on Bitcoin alone and detach ourselves from linking it to fiat, not yet.We don’t and we won’t have “bitcoin only” economy, not in the foreseeable future.I don’t want to focus on fiat to btc value relation, but I have no choice, although flawed by design, this is the only benchmark we have.

I agree with him that bitcoin price is overvalued but I don’t think that it is 1000 times overvalued. Maybe the current price we have now is not the real value of bitcoin as a currency but rather we see now the value of bitcoin as an asset and a currency. Many treats it like an asset to buy and sell for profit in terms of fiat so it really is overvalued at some point because there’s a manipulation by some people.

Quote from: franky1 on April 12, 2017, 11:07:43 AM
i do laugh at those that only care about a future FIAT value while pretending “banks are bad, governments are bad”
I share your opinion, but we also can’t focus on Bitcoin alone and detach ourselves from linking it to fiat, not yet.We don’t and we won’t have “bitcoin only” economy, not in the foreseeable future.I don’t want to focus on fiat to btc value relation, but I have no choice, although flawed by design, this is the only benchmark we have.

^^ Brilliantly stated, I absolutely needed to read those words today, Maku. Bitcoin needs fiat because fixed supply just doesn’t work with a currency. The dynamic development and progress of the economy always needs dynamic supply of currency, because without it, there would be no value stability. And the lack of value stability is the criteria of a low quality currency. Even high inflation is better if it’s devaluation is happening in a predictable rate. Unpredictable value is the worse, because it’s impossible to make any future estimates while using an unpredictable value currency as a point of reference. If you make your calculations for a 3 year long project with currency, that can go -+500% in that time-frame, then you’re gonna have a bad time.A lot of youtube educated bitcoiners try to demonize not only banking in general, but also all the economic and financial practical issues that counteract with their hopes of becoming rich by bitcoin speculation.

Mervyn, You are probably not wrong about the YouTube educated generation, of which I am a slightly embarrassed member. We do tend to dream a tad too far out of the bounds of reality, and I had not heard this perspective yet, believe it or not. It isn’t so much that I aim to demonize traditional fiat, but I predict the methods in which traditional banking accounts for transactions will change forever. I know the adoption of a more clever way of reconciling the ledgers is altering the operation of all finance. I am talking about the functions introduced through our Blockchain, and of course the beloved centerpiece of the publicly distributed ledger, Bitcoin. So I suppose I should say Banks will be forced to adopt blockchain type technology because it is a better way for consumers to properly account for their consumption, and a better way to keep transactions in the daylight where all hands on deck can be seen, and must be clean.

Do you mean he is so sure about 1000 times of the price of bitcoin?I think its too much for bitcoin.. even we are all using it and more investors are come the price of bitcoin will never increase in 1000 times It is too high price.. maybe possible that i think the price can be 10 times value from the price today to the future.. And it never overvalued. Expect for more price increase will happen but not so much fast the same as the chinese who thinking about 1000 times.. It will be still in the market if how the movement of the price will be. .

I disagree. It’s not overvalued, it’s valued, plain and simple. What is a US Dollar worth? Or a penny? You might say a Dollar is worth a Dollar. But Why? Because we agree that it has value. A penny, in actuality is worth 1.5 cents if you base it’s value of how much it costs to make. Bitcoin is worth whatever we agree it is worth. It can not be overvalued. But it can be over priced.

He is totally wrong in saying that the price of bitcoins is too much overvalued and it being a ponzi scheme.well bitcoins has been accepted as a mass and well people would not buy stuffs with bitcoins so soon,well it would need for the people to be educated and make them understand the value of bitcoins.media should play a role in promoting bitcoins,so that it should be used by masses.

Bitcoin are very worth for me , they had bad experience countering bitcoin regarding their investment but we can see the real future that has bitcoin now. Almost of half of bitcoin website investment are ponzi scheme where they telling people that they will give good return of there investment to invite people too invest after that or running their website for 1 day it will turn into scam.

I’ve been using bitcoin several years and I’m gonna say that bitcoin is actually overvalued. but still im hoping that bitcoin price could actually hit $1500 but still I started bitcoin when the price of it is around $500 and now it will become triple than before anytime soon . so I like to pleased that bitcoin must balanced the price in order the other can afford bitcoin but that would literally made all riches guy to buy again bitcoin and stock it . Still looking forward to bitcoin

Quote from: pitham1 on Today at 01:36:25 AM
So a Bitcoin should actually be worth $1? That is ridiculous.Some millionaires like Draper would be able to buy up all the bitcoins in the world. That is not going to happen any time soon.

Don’t listen to him. He seems to be having a grudge against Bitcoin and may be promoting some altcoin instead. A currency being used by 7 to 8 million people is worth much more than $20 billion in market capitalization.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?
Gold is just a metal and diamond is just a stone, why not we call their value too as overpriced ? Unlike crypto currency, gold/Diamonds are being valued by every part of this world ? All these people are so childish to value just a metal or a stone ?

Both gold and diamond are having value as collectibles. For them, the demand is always greater than the supply. Once the supply is able to overtake the demand, the value of gold and diamond will come down. Same is the case with BTC as well. As long as there is demand, it will be having value.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?
Gold is just a metal and diamond is just a stone, why not we call their value too as overpriced ? Unlike crypto currency, gold/Diamonds are being valued by every part of this world ? All these people are so childish to value just a metal or a stone ?Your old shirt will get millions of dollars in an auction if you are a rockstar. Yes, demand determines everything. Bitcoin has demand and it has value. There is no meaning of arguing it is 1000x more valued, there are people ready to buy with 1000x more so it has those values.

I’m starting to wonder about the guru part. He’s making a simple logical mistake, saying egg is not chicken therefore egg cannot become chicken. Part of speculation is expected future value, which can tie in with expected future rates of adoption.If he’s basing his valuation solely off of current adoption, (even if we discount considerations about the future) it seems clear that BTC’s current adoption wouldn’t warrant the price to be 1000 times less than it’s current standing. Yes an egg is not a chicken xD But as Dogen said “You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.” First there is winter then there is spring, then summer.To say Spring will surely not come, cannot come because it is winter is simular to saying egg will not become chicken, but if it is winter it seems fairly certain spring will come xD

It seems true that not many businesses or merchants accept Bitcoin as payment. I think this could be a problem in the future. Bitcoin seems to be used on gambling sites, porn sites, and a few online merchants and only a handful of physical businesses. Other than that, the system is kept going by mining and people acquiring and moving Bitcoins for investing, trading, lending, etc. So far that has been enough, but I think wider adoption is needed.

Daily non exchange transaction volume is about $0.3 billion, market cap is about $20 billion, so I guess you could argue the proportion of money in circulation is very low compared to the total that exists. Despite the growth in bitcoin, it’s hard to deny the price is still massively speculative. Mining costs per coin can and do adapt to the size of the market so that isn’t a solid support at all.

Quote from: rickadone on April 20, 2017, 07:16:39 AM
Gold is just a metal and diamond is just a stone, why not we call their value too as overpriced ? Unlike crypto currency, gold/Diamonds are being valued by every part of this world ? All these people are so childish to value just a metal or a stone ?
Gold is not just a metal, it is very useful because it has some excellent chemical properties. Can be used for jewelry or to create tools or electronics. Diamonds are simply beautiful when used as decoration and they have industrial use because they are very hard and are good abrasives.Usefulness and scarcity = high price.

Quote from: aardvark15 on Today at 08:27:53 PM
It seems true that not many businesses or merchants accept Bitcoin as payment. I think this could be a problem in the future. Bitcoin seems to be used on gambling sites, porn sites, and a few online merchants and only a handful of physical businesses. Other than that, the system is kept going by mining and people acquiring and moving Bitcoins for investing, trading, lending, etc. So far that has been enough, but I think wider adoption is needed.

Important reasons as to why people don’t spend their coins:– Bitcoin as it is doesn’t function as well as fiat does when it comes to doing online and local shopping.– In order to buy something with Bitcoin, you must obtain Bitcoin first, and then hope that the price doesn’t fall too much after buying. Especially for the non Bitcoiners, this is an unneeded risky step as they can buy everything with fiat already.– People don’t like to spend something which later explodes in value. It makes them regret having spent their coins, and most likely will never spend again.Don’t forget the fees. Most people are cheapskates that try to save on all their transaction fees by including poor fees. This will only result in many many hours of waiting time to get that important first confirmation, and guess what, Bitcoin will be blamed for ‘not functioning properly’.

Important reasons as to why people don’t spend their coins:– Bitcoin as it is doesn’t function as well as fiat does when it comes to doing online and local shopping.– In order to buy something with Bitcoin, you must obtain Bitcoin first, and then hope that the price doesn’t fall too much after buying. Especially for the non Bitcoiners, this is an unneeded risky step as they can buy everything with fiat already.– People don’t like to spend something which later explodes in value. It makes them regret having spent their coins, and most likely will never spend again.Don’t forget the fees. Most people are cheapskates that try to save on all their transaction fees by including poor fees. This will only result in many many hours of waiting time to get that important first confirmation, and guess what, Bitcoin will be blamed for ‘not functioning properly’.
To battle that negative bitcoin traits services/merchants accepting bitcoin should introduce some kind of incentive for people who use BTC.Knowing deflationary nature of Bitcoin they should also store at least some portion of bitcoin payments, it would be amazing long term investing strategy.The only real problem are growing tx fees. You can’t really do anything about it as an user.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?
Gold is just a metal and diamond is just a stone, why not we call their value too as overpriced ? Unlike crypto currency, gold/Diamonds are being valued by every part of this world ? All these people are so childish to value just a metal or a stone ?Your old shirt will get millions of dollars in an auction if you are a rockstar. Yes, demand determines everything. Bitcoin has demand and it has value. There is no meaning of arguing it is 1000x more valued, there are people ready to buy with 1000x more so it has those values.

^this. There may be a bubble, that’s impossible to tell until after the point but we’re definitely nowhere near 1000x overvalued hahaha. To say that just makes you sound like incompetent newb in the whole aspect of cryptocurrencies.
Overvalued growth have never happened with bitcoin. Recent days during the year start overvaluation haven’t took place, just China miners as well the increased exchange platforms provided with the fake trading volume to profit high and for high volume transaction. This has been sought in a short making everything to move in a stable manner.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?
Not at all.Bitcoin’s price is made to be undervalued by manipulating by chinese gamblers.Bitcoin’s price is determined by the increase or decrease in demand for bitcoins.Now, manipulation is not possible.So today’s bitcoin price exactly reflects its original value.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

Maybe you just misheard something on what he is trying to do, maybe it is not 1000 times overvalue? maybe he means by reaching the $1000 value mark bitcoin is now an understandable key for every people to multiple their earning with bitcoin and that is the fact and I think he is just happy in saying such words that he mumble and jumble it, regarding in what he is explaining.

the price is now over than $1000 and its more than 1000 times as Ou Guru said and i think he is right to predict like that. and now the price is still moving into higher price and we can not know in how much the price will increase. we know that bitcoin will increase the value and now the value reach high.

Quote from: Doofus on April 12, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
how much does a bitcoin worth?Some say:Worthless. Its just a Ponzi scheme.Some hail:Priceless! Its the future of money.A Chinese economist Ou Chengxiao, often nicknamedOu Guru said yesterday “The price of bitcoin is 1000 times overvalued”. He believed that the value of currency is decided by its scale of circulation, or adoption. But now the lack of businesses that accept the digital currency as payment has been holding bitcoin back from wider adoption. not so many people are buying things with btc. i am a little confused why he is so sure bitcoin price is 1000 times overvalued. why not 100? 10? why exactly 1000? Do you agree with him?

Maybe you just misheard something on what he is trying to do, maybe it is not 1000 times overvalue? maybe he means by reaching the $1000 value mark bitcoin is now an understandable key for every people to multiple their earning with bitcoin and that is the fact and I think he is just happy in saying such words that he mumble and jumble it, regarding in what he is explaining.

Quote from: maku on April 22, 2017, 09:30:26 PM
Knowing deflationary nature of Bitcoin they should also store at least some portion of bitcoin payments, it would be amazing long term investing strategy.

That would give the price a boost in the long term as it means that less coins get sold by third party payment processors, but it’s only a fantasy. Volatility scares off merchants to keep a certain portion of their coins. It’s easy talking for us as we can just keep holding our coins. Merchants need to pay tax over everything, use that money to buy stock, pay out employees, pay rent, etc. They simply can’t afford to take a hit of 20-30% if the price suddenly happens to go down like that. Most merchants rely on constant liquidity in form of fiat — holding Bitcoin isn’t an option for them.

I think price increasing due to deflation is real and not a fantasy. Even if some merchants are quite afraid to accept Bitcoin, enthusiast will definitely push the price up. You can look at the coin collection society, the rarer the coin the higher the price, even if the coin cannot be used to buy items in the market.

You didn’t understand me correctly. With fantasy I meant to say that it will most likely not happen that Bitcoin accepting merchants will keep a portion of their coins. If they would — that directly means that less coins will get dumped on the market by the payment processors that these merchants are using, and thus results in less overall selling pressure. Again, not a likely scenario for most merchants.

Bitcoin is not over valued.If any one says it is over valued,compared to what? gold or stock markets.Bitcoin is the perfect system for sending millions of dollars to any parts of world quickly.It has intrinsic value.Some may speculate bitcoin’s price to be more and if they lose,its their mistake.Bitcoin should be valued based on the under lying characteristics in it.Bitcoin is a protocol used by millions of people all over the world and it is decentralized and so works in a fair manner.