Recruitment and Social Media, an Interview with Elizabeth Ebeli

Podcast Transcript

TIM: Hello and welcome to another episode. With me today I have Liz Ebeli, who is Practice Manager of Digital Media at Slade Partners Executive Search. Hello, Liz.

LIZ: Hi, Tim. Thank you very much for having me today.

TIM: Tell everybody what you do.

LIZ: That’s a very good question. What do I do? Well, apart from helping people with their careers, which is the bulk of what we do here, I particularly focus on the digital media practice. My role here as practice manager is to assist the very many talented digital media candidates in Australia and globally with finding their next perfect role. So I bring digital talent together with big companies all around the world.

TIM: Ah, excellent. And I would imagine your services are in hot demand at the moment. Social media and digital generally are very big on the radar of most businesses, big and small.

LIZ: Yeah, that’s absolutely right. I’ve been here for 3 years now, and prior I was in digital myself in industry, so I worked for some of Australia’s leading publishers and also a telecommunications company. But never before has the urgency or the need for digital been ever more than now. We’re seeing companies really starting to understand the need for digital transformation and evolving what were typically traditional roles in the past into digital-focused roles.

So many of the traditional roles, for example marketing, have evolved into either a digital marketing or digital communications role. And of course, this burgeoning market of social, which has just taken over consumers’ lives. Which is something that has allowed for new opportunities and careers to develop.

So it’s a very, very busy time for us in digital, and as more and more companies recognize the need to move that way, we find our telephone rings.

TIM: Yeah, I’m sure it does. You say digital and I say social; what’s the difference, fundamentally, between a manager in that space and a manager in the social space?

LIZ: Social obviously falls under digital. It evolves any assets in a digital capacity, but it’s really focusing on the internet and what we do with regards to social media. Social media is a role now that has formulated as part of a marketing division, and typically falls under a Head of Digital or a Digital Marketing Manager.

Social manager, or social media managers or social media marketers, have started from roles that were typically a graduate role perhaps 3 or 4 years ago, where Facebook and even Twitter was only just starting to become a fad – and perhaps more than a fad, a phenomenon for some businesses – to now actually developing into often six-figure salaries. And that is because it’s gone from being perhaps just “We need to have a social media presence” to “How do we actually commercialize the social media?”

So now it’s really important that those people that get into social under a digital hat really have a strong commercialization focus in their role so that they can learn how to maximize social media benefits for their own company.

TIM: So a young graduate who’s all over Facebook, not necessarily the right person for the role?

LIZ: No, there’s a place definitely for that person. I think we’ll start to see teams in social media start to develop. Just like marketing, there is a marketing coordinator, a marketing manager, usually a GM or director of marketing, and then of course a group marketing manager if you’re getting into more hierarchical companies.

If we’re talking small to medium enterprises, often there is a social coordinator or a social manager or executive, and then there might be a digital media and social coordinator or manager. So the role just becomes broader if it’s a smaller business, and otherwise becomes very siloed if it’s a big business.

TIM: Right, okay. In terms of skill sets, it is relatively new; I mean, even 2, 3 years, that’s in the grand scheme of things quite new. Things are changing quite quickly. Whether it’s a senior role or a more junior role, how do these people get their skills? Do they in their bones know what to do, or they’re learning on the fly? How does it work?

LIZ: I think naturally you’re a digitally savvy person. I mean, you have to live and breathe all assets of digital. When it comes to social, obviously you need to be aware of what other social tools are out there today, and they’re not just the Facebooks which particularly everybody uses today, but they are the social tools that help understand the behaviors of those people using social. So you have to get a feel for the data, the analytics that comes from social.

But the core skills are ultimately having a very strong, deep understanding of social itself and how it’s actually going to help drive revenue for a business. Because that’s ultimately what social is to do. It’s about engagement and it’s about ultimately helping sell product or services.

If you want to then expand on your social and not just be somebody who is there to help with the social campaigns, but you actually want to set the strategy, then there’s a few extra skills that you do need to have behind you. We’re starting to see the iteration of social roles, meaning that traditional marketers are now putting up their hand to move or transition into social because of the strategy that is important behind the role. That’s where you talk about the six-figure salaries.

TIM: More than likely, these aren’t young graduates; they’re people that may have been in the marketing space for a number of years, if not decades in some cases, that may have a profound understanding of their industry sector that they’ve been operating in, and they’re just leveraging that knowledge with this new layer of technology and community engagement.

LIZ: Absolutely right. I just actually grabbed a copy of a CV from a candidate who I won’t name, but a particularly strong profile in the area of social media marketing. And I thought I might just take your listeners through what is the typical type of background that one person might’ve had, particularly these more senior members that you mention, to give them insight into what are some of the skills that would be required.

This particular person started off their career just simply in a marketing coordinator role, so that might be your grad role there. They developed through national brand management, product marketing, and customer acquisitions – so all very traditional marketing type roles. They then went and headed up marketing and communications at a major company, and then of course kept developing their role to become a head of group marketing, and finally in the most recent roles, they’re in a dual role where they’re the head of online communications and social media.

So all of a sudden they’ve made the transition from a traditional head of marketing role where they might’ve had 15 or 17 plus years’ experience, and they might’ve been a grad, worked through their 20s into their 30s, and now they’ve transitioned into the head of online. They would have to have very core traditional marketing skills to understand the strategy behind that, but then of course they’re using their new age social skills to be able to develop into that social role.

The type of skills that this person has brought is a deep understanding of end-to-end communications, audiences, and channels, including both digital and social; understanding leadership skills; obviously, the ability to have a business-focused view and provide a strong understanding of the communications platform; excellent ability to understand and to derive insights from analytics, to drive bottom line revenue results; and the ability to think and act strategically.

Of course, from that, they need to have significant experience in major marketing fields. So your digital and your social media – note the difference between the two – brand development, PR, market research, media buying, sponsorships, events, marketing. You start to get a bit of a feel and flair for the way that this person’s background, which probably is more traditionally focused, has been able to transition into the digital world.

TIM: Right, and now I feel very inadequate, because I reckon I only have about a third of those.

LIZ: Well you know what, Tim, at the end of the day, what you’re doing is providing great tools for these people who clearly have come from traditional marketing backgrounds and have to then transition into the new age type of marketing. So don’t feel like you’re at a loss because you haven’t got those skills; they can certainly be acquired.

TIM: Yeah. I’m also thinking that those skills are more easily acquired than a lot of the other ones that you talked about. I mean, I’m fairly confident that most people, with an open mind and the ability to learn, you can bring them up pretty quickly – different disciplines, different platforms, the analytics and so forth. But you can’t teach somebody 20 years of industry experience overnight.

LIZ: That’s absolutely right. It’s interesting, because when I started recruiting senior level roles 3 years ago, I found there was an insistence from clients that “this person had to have digital experience only.” We don’t mind that they’ve only had 5 years’ experience, because 3 years ago it was 2010; digital had really only started to play a major part in the early 2000s. So you’re probably seeing people with 5 to 8 years maximum experience in the pure play digital environments.

Now, 3 years on, there’s been this shift where the big gap, the one big missing piece, has been the commercialization, the strategy participation in the role. And you do tend to find that with candidates who have the integrated, both digital and traditional marketing or media experience – we are finding the tables are turning a little, and we’re becoming a lot more savvy about how we appoint candidates in these senior level roles.

TIM: Can I take it back to brass tacks? One of the cornerstones of good social is the idea of community engagement, which I think is largely driven by people on the ground, people that have to respond to comments and questions and so forth.

But at an organizational level, the organization needs to be behind being more social, being more transparent and open in the way that they communicate with their customers or clients or members. Is there any underlying tension around the type of personality that goes into some of these roles against what they’re required to do out in the field and also against the position of the organization?

LIZ: It’s an interesting comment and question because there is a lot of policy behind social media. Today it’s a freedom of speech environment. You’re opening yourself up for commentary but also you’re opening yourself up for engagement.

I think the engagement piece needs to have somebody who’s very strong, capable of driving and maintaining the social media policy for the company, but equally not being afraid to make determination on if a comment comes on that might be perceived as negative, not to respond in an argumentative fashion, not to try and fight it or even flee from the situation, but in fact we’re going to flood the market with positive marketing reinforcement.

It needs to be somebody that has a personality that is persistent, perhaps resistant to potential arguments that could arise from opening yourself up to social media, but we tend to find that there is also a flair, a creative flair with these people. They tend to have a good, strong brand background or experience. They understand messaging when it comes to communications.

That is what drives good engagement, and I think if there is a human element that comes through – when you see companies like major corporations, like the big retail giants for example, engaging one-on-one with the people that are tweeting to them, responding very directly in a very humbling fashion is something that I think drives strong engagement.

The airline industry is a great example of that, where there is a person behind the Twittersphere, so to speak, and they are engaging one-on-one with the complaints, with also the compliments that are coming through in the airline industry. We’ve seen quite a lot of those stories in the paper lately.

So it takes a strong, determined person to manage it, because you are the face, effectively, of these businesses.

TIM: In terms of individuals managing that process, as you say, on a one-on-one basis, is the individual now coming to the fore? Traditionally, marketing communications have always been behind the brand, the brand at the front and people pushing it from behind. But now you’ve got individuals with names and personalities that are driving the strategy and the frontline engagement.

Is there some danger, do you believe, that organizations might lose control to an individual?

LIZ: Certainly there’s a sense of power and importance being in that role, a sense of “I need to be the face of the company.” But I guess it comes back to that social media policy and having a very strict policy in place. The first step of any social media marketer or manager is to make sure that there is an agreed communications policy, and any deviation from that would mean that’s a breach of that so-called contract or policy.

But there is an element of accountability as well being thrust onto the shoulders of these social media marketers – hence why it is no longer considered to be a junior’s role or responsibility. These are senior level engagements. These are as important as an external communications manager or an external brand manager. This is the responsibility of the brand.

However, it is also important that they follow a process and protocol when it comes to responding to comments that either could be deemed as negative or possibly even detrimental to the brand. So very important that that be very clear. And these people work in teams headed by a director who helps make the call.

But also strong issues management is actually a very key component to these roles now. Being able to have the ability to work with crisis and issues management policies as well is also going to why these roles get the big salaries.

TIM: Yeah, that makes sense. You must get a lot of applications for the different roles that you’re looking after, and obviously you’re able to go back and do the traditional checks and so forth. But within an online environment, does it make it easier for you to go and maybe see some of their online portfolios, some of their work that they may have done in the past because it’s still up online? Or even go and look at their personal social media platforms, read their blog? Does that make a difference in the way that you evaluate candidates?

LIZ: Most definitely. I filled a role recently for a digital strategist and digital communications manager for a beautiful little FMCG brand, a small to medium business. One of the first things that both the CEO and the chairman of the board did was jump onto the Twitter accounts of those five shortlisted candidates to get a feel for what’s their language like, how are they representing themselves in the market?

In fact, through that process, we in fact ruled out one member of that shortlist purely based on what they were writing on their Twitter account. So it’s very important that if you are positioning yourself, whether you’re in social or digital, really across the board with any jobs, that you be very conscious that the world is watching. Google is always watching. There’s a sense of that what is said and communicated certainly can make a difference, both positive and negative.

TIM: Yeah. What about the case where there’s nothing? Someone’s applied for a role, but they’ve got virtually zero digital/social footprint? Does that say something to you?

LIZ: If they’re applying for a digital and social role, it does. It tells me that they’re not engaging, they’re perhaps not up with the social media world like they think they are. Or perhaps they’re wanting to transition into that environment; if that is the case, then most definitely I would be asking the question about “Are you a trendsetter in the digital world?”

And if they’re not, then they really need to probably think again about applying for these roles. We do find the candidates that are the best in this field are those that live and breathe it every day.

TIM: There was never some planned building of structures for you to look at in the future? They just did it because they want to do it, it’s in their blood; they just had to communicate, and they’ve got a blog and they’ve got a good community around Twitter, whatever it may be.

LIZ: It’s not the end-all, be-all. We sometimes find that some of the best social media marketers personally don’t push out their social or personal engagement across public forums regarding their own personal interests; they tend to just focus on the business.

For example, I’ve chosen personally to be quite deliberate about the way I tweet. I make sure it has a professional focus. I don’t use Twitter for a social capability, and that’s my personal social media policy. However, I have a Facebook page which has photos that my friends can enjoy, my family and friends. LinkedIn is my professional environment.

I think it’s important that individuals set a very strong social media policy for themselves, because that helps with their own personal brand. So I wouldn’t discount a candidate because they had a low Twitter profile; they might just prefer a different form of media, and if they’ve got very strong capability in their delivery of revenue results for a business, i.e. it’s an e-commerce platform that they’ve been managing and they can show recognized revenue from their social media campaigns, that’s far more interesting to me than what type of profile they’ve got on Twitter or Facebook. It’s important to make that distinction.

TIM: I guess there’s another consideration, too; not so much that content that’s being published through these platforms, but a demonstration that they actually have some of the mechanical abilities to build stuff. They know how to cross-promote and some of the more mundane things.

But I’m also thinking that no matter how senior the role, you have to have some experience down in the trenches as to mechanically how stuff works to be able to create more top-end strategies around that.

LIZ: Yeah. There’s two trains of thought there. If you are focusing purely on social media campaigns, having some technical capability does stand you in good stead, because you’re able to converse with key stakeholders that have zero knowledge of the technical capability, and you’re able to converse with the people that are developing the campaigns, the frontend developers, the backend developers, the information architects when it comes to content and building websites and driving engagement that way.

Having an understanding of technology and the technical requirements, at least a strong understanding of that, certainly gives you an edge. Especially when you’re starting to go up the ranks in terms of digital roles or social roles, being able to understand how it all plugs in via content management system or ultimately how to get on the tools, i.e. Google Analytics or some of the other more sophisticated software like Omniture or SiteCatalyst – if you get the understanding of the technical tools and the technical products out there, then that is certainly going to give you a better chance of success in the bigger roles.

TIM: Which begs the question, where do you up-skill? Is there a time in the day at work to take your own experiment and work stuff out? Or is this now an extra requirement, that when you get home, you’ve got to sort it? How do these people keep themselves up to speed?

LIZ: It’s a great question. I think it’s two things. Candidates are able to find more opportunities whilst in their job, so they’re having the conversations with the developers and the tech teams, they’re reaching out to even competitors and sharing knowledge, they’re attending courses and networking functions to understand what access to tools do they get. They are also doing the homework themselves after hours. They are attending multimedia courses and expanding on their skill set.

We’re starting to see universities, like for example Melbourne University has started a terrific digital media, multimedia course, which I’m now noticing quite a few candidates are coming through with completed degrees from 2012, 2013. So we’re now starting to see even the higher education institutions are recognizing the evolving market that is social.

So I think courses is a great way for them to be able to gain some intel, certainly attending events, and just being open to digital knowledge and making sure that they’re signed up to all of the digital magazines, digital subscriptions. Like ZDNet is a great tool that pushes out constant tools and communications that they can be then be incorporating into their learning.

TIM: Good bit of a dichotomy here. On the one hand, we’re talking about those technical hard skills, the mechanics of physically making stuff work; but the soft skills, we’re talking about communication, engagement, personality. That almost sounds like a humanities graduate might easily fit into that role.

LIZ: Yeah, arts. Arts and English, language skills. You’re right, it’s a dual responsibility role. It’s an all-encompassing role, which is why the roles have evolved, and the importance of having the right personnel in these roles that have the capability across all facets of the role.

These are not easy roles to be obtaining, and the type of people that are getting it actually do have that very broad approach to the role because they have not only the technical prowess – and I’m not saying that they’re coding or they’re actually programming; they’re definitely not doing that. But just having a natural digital, native terminology and idea of the technology is really what they’ve got.

But then encompassing it with the soft skills – really eloquent communication skills, the ability to engage, the ability to be human and to really connect with your audience, is ultimately what these people are best at.

TIM: Gosh, it sounds like quite a package.

LIZ: Yeah. Well, it is. It is. And I think it’s why we see companies now – I mean, some of the job titles, one of the big telcos had a head of online and social media manager. That was what they were looking for, that all-encompassing role which is the online strategy and understanding how all of online fits into their communication strategy, as well as the social side. So how do we utilize social forums or social platforms to deliver our messaging?

So that two-prong role is what we’re now seeing so many companies go out with. They’re becoming less niche and much broader, because they’re recognizing the need to have traditional expertise with that social skill set all-encompassing.

TIM: But is it also fragmenting, that you’re getting specialists within niches? There might be a specialist around analytics or data, a specialist within community management. One person really can’t be brilliant at all of the things that we’ve been talking about in the last 20 minutes.

LIZ: No, you’re absolutely right. And that’s why you’ve got companies – for example, a very big retail company that I’ve been working with has only in the last 4 months gone from zero staff personnel to 40, and that is encompassing all of those things you spoke about.

So they have their content specialists which focus on delivering good quality communications, imagery to their market; they have their analysts that look at the behavior and the data and derive insights from that and report back to the key stakeholders, which ultimately improves the way we engage on the content side.

Then you’ve got your marketers, who set the strategy for “how are we going to push and pull our audience to us?” So they have their different levels of expertise within that group.

And then you’ve got product, which sits within a digital product or an environment which is looking at innovation. What devices do we use to communicate to our audience? Are we on just desktop? Are we across tablet or smartphone?

It’s the teams that are developing because of exactly what you said, Tim; they are recognizing the importance to break down each of the silos and then from there break into more specialist roles. But above all of those roles is the person who manages it all, the person who ultimately helps bring all of those together, and that’s where you see a chief digital officer, a head of online, a GM of online, a digital director.

Or you might see the combination of the two, like what Myerhas just done with their general manager of marketing. They actually added the digital component to that role. They’ve now got the GM of Marketing and Digital in their company, so they’re recognizing the importance of having the two.

I think we’re going to see more and more of that occurring; it’ll either be blend or it’ll be full digital teams that will come out on their own.

TIM: Speaking of teams, do you sense any shift away from outsourcing to agencies as opposed to building an in-house team?

LIZ: Great question. It’s mixed in the market, and I suppose that’s where I best come in, because I’m usually the one that companies will call upon when they’re deciding to bring everything in-house. We’re seeing probably at the moment 50/50.

There is a shift in some instances to bringing in-house teams in, but there are some positives and there are some negatives with that. Obviously the positives are it’s all confined and you get to share the messaging within the team, but equally going out to agencies allows broadening of ideas and creating of ideas.

So I think it won’t be 100%, and in these cases where these teams are being created, they’re not just doing it themselves; they are still utilizing the expertise of agencies. So there’ll always be a place. But I think there is definitely a sense of ownership at this stage from companies, where if they don’t yet have an internal team, give it 6, 12 months and we’ll start to see even those companies bring everything in-house.

TIM: In terms of the roles out there, for every role that you advertise or put out there into the market, are you inundated with high quality applicants? Or is it a bit on the ground for some of them?

LIZ: We are inundated with applicants; whether they’re quality is the question. I tend to personally find that being able to go out to market and see what’s in the market as opposed to what’s just on the market is critical.

In Australia, we have a situation where we have rich talent; we just don’t have enough job opportunities. There’s plenty of good quality talent both here in Australia and returning expatriates, but we don’t always have the role opportunities available for them.

The U.S. is the complete opposite to that. They have all these jobs; they are just struggling to find the talent within. It’s a real dichotomy. It’s why we’re actually now having to pull talent from the U.S. and the UK and Asia into these roles into Australia. So I often find that my role is to go outside and to actually try to identify talent globally as well.

But there is some good strong homegrown talent here, but we just have to work a bit harder to identify it. Because the big thing is, people are really happy in their jobs. They don’t want to leave. If they’re in a great job that’s engaging them and challenging for them, then often they’re not actually out applying for roles.

There is a very strong piece where we play a big part in that, and we have to approach them and certainly discuss their needs and requirements and their career aspirations, take them on the journey, which is what we probably do best.

TIM: LinkedIn. Is that important? I guess in a general sense, but from a recruitment angle.

LIZ: It’s critical. I’m a big fan of LinkedIn. I personally believe in having a profile. I think people engage really well on LinkedIn; I think it’s been a great tool to have in the market. Obviously, in the digital environment, there’s a lot of profiles. People are advertising their brand and their profiles on LinkedIn in digital all the time.

But I think it’s very important that we don’t just fall into the trap of just using the tool of LinkedIn to identify talent, because as I said, not all talent is on the market. We have to go inside the market, we’ve got to be clear on the types of roles that we’re recruiting for.

And different titles carry different responsibilities, and they don’t always match, particularly in this new age of digital and social. You often have to get to the core of what is the client’s needs, and often that doesn’t match what a title is on LinkedIn. So it’s very important that you have somebody who understands the particular skill sets required, because the role might actually, for the profile on LinkedIn, might actually not be related to the role that you’re recruiting for at all.

You simply use it as a tool, and of course, utilize your very strong network, which is why it helps in my case – having been on the industry side, I know empathetically well who the movers and the shakers in the industry are. I’ve watched their careers evolving, so I can keep an eye on their paths. They create paths. And a tool like LinkedIn does help for that, but I think it’s more than that. It’s about the relationship, it’s about them having the trust.

TIM: Are there some common mistakes that you see with people’s LinkedIn profiles?

LIZ: Well, common mistakes are, firstly, that they don’t have a photo. Number one, you need to have a photo there. People like at least to see that they’re dealing with somebody who’s human, and I often wonder, when people don’t put a profile photo on there, potentially what have they got to hide?

Saying that, though, not everybody uses LinkedIn. In terms of the way that they use LinkedIn, it might simply be there as a very discreet forum for them to at least be in the traffic. So I do respect that.

With regards to recommendations, it’s nice to have them on there. As a recruiter, I don’t look at them as being the end-all recommendation process. I will always do proper reference checks – over the phone, face-to-face, full reference checks before I finalize and offer with a candidate. But I do think it allows for a little bit of understanding into the character of the person.

In terms of your online CV, that’s what it is. It’s an online CV. It’s a great tool for that. It’s really the beginning process when you’re looking for work. I think what we’re now starting to see is CV websites have been playing a big part in the recruitment process, and some of the best applicants that I’ve had have had blogs or CV websites where they’ve showcased their campaigns, their profiles, and have set that up in such a way that only the person who’s reviewing it can access it via a password. So there’s strong protection mechanisms on their own personal brand, which I think is really smart. I’ve been encouraging that.

TIM: I love it. It gets to demonstrate so many things all at the same time: your initiative, your creative input, your ability to use different platforms, mix up tools, and express your personality, I think, in a way that a static CV or a PDF would never be able to do.

LIZ: That’s absolutely right. There’s something really rewarding about having a look at a CV in such a format online, knowing, as you said, the candidate has put the time and the effort into showcasing their skills.

I really applaud and commend candidates who do that, and even go further and present on an iPad or a tablet of some variety during their interview. So there’s definitely a lot more work that goes into winning the job today.

TIM: Yeah. Before we close, I know there’s a thought on a lot of people’s minds in terms of the different roles, the different salary bands that go with those roles. Are you able to walk us through quickly as to general market expectations out there?

LIZ: For social roles in particular?

TIM: Yeah.

LIZ: If we focus on social, yeah, of course there are still the graduate opportunities that you start to see out there. They tend to fall into the role of social media coordinator or social media executive, and they could range anywhere from $55,000 through to $70,000, $75,000 maybe at most. And as you go up those ranks, you would take on more responsibility.

A social media manager would be certainly obtaining a salary of around $80,000 to $110,000 usually, depending on the size of the organization, and obviously depending on the salary range, it really tends to depend on the turnover of the company too. If it’s say an under $10 million turnover business, technically a more small or medium enterprise, you’re probably going to find you’re on the lower end of the spectrum of those salaries.

A very well-recognized brand, however, a place that everybody wants to work, will also tend to be slightly lower, because there’s an element of great experience, great career opportunities that could be derived from being in that brand. So sometimes you need to weigh up the opportunity versus the salary.

From there, you start to dive into more the strategic roles. For example, if you are a social media marketer or social media director, you might start to see the salaries go north of $125,000, $130,000. And as I mentioned earlier, I’ve just placed a role – I just helped facilitate a role for $200,000, which was a social media marketing manager. We’re talking full-scale leading, managing teams, probably 5 to 10 direct reports – and those teams of say 40 underneath, which might be all-encompassing of the analysts right through to the content designers.

So you can start to see the big opportunities. Those types of backgrounds would need to have a mix of both traditional and social and digital. I think if you can bring that to the table, there’s no doubt that you’ll start to see the bigger salaries fall your way from a social side.

And of course digital starts to get into more the technical roles and probably more commercial skill sets, but I think from those band ranges, there’s definitely scope to have a great career in social.

TIM: Final question: 5 years from now, will we still be talking about social media managers at all? Or will it just integrate into marketing?

LIZ: That’s a great question. Digital is already becoming just pure integration, so social is no doubt going to follow the same path as digital. Even though social at this stage is probably considered a silo under digital; if we come back to your original question about what is the differences, it sits under the band of digital – but even the band of digital is quickly becoming either marketing or media.

So it will evolve. I think we’ll probably retain social in it, but I think the word “social” will be much broader of what is all encompassing in social, because there will be social for desktop, there will be social for mobile; it might be device agnostic. It could be a whole host of things. It could be about change management within social, how do we go from different platforms and integrate?

It, just like digital, will evolve, and eventually I do see it all being under the one hub, but it will certainly have a place.

TIM: Well, in about 40 minutes, we have covered a lot of ground. Thank you so much. Liz, before you go, where can people find you?

LIZ: Great, yes, they can go to www.sladepartners.com.au. They can have a look at the jobs that we have on there, or of course they could have a look at my profile under Elizabeth Ebeli. And of course, they could always give me a call as well.

TIM: Fantastic. That’s a wrap, so thank you, Liz. And thank you, listeners, until next time.