Like they ask, "what hobbies do you find unattractive?" Someone says "gaming" and then they spend the rest of the thread arguing how it's arbitrary, judgmental and even bigoted to find that unattractive.

The thing is that I've seen this all over reddit. Places like /r/fitness, /r/legaladvice and even /r/askmen has posts which are there just so that the OP can get validation for their position or opinion. They're not looking to be disagreed with

One of the best ones I saw was some 16 year old who took his grandma's credit card and posed as her to buy a bunch of shit online. Then one day found out it was cancelled, presumably by his grandma due to the suspicious purchases.

The OPs question was something like 'this isn't fraud, what are my options'. Everyone's response, this is fraud get a lawyer. He argued it into oblivion lol

You could even argue that that's what they expect women to do for them. So the title 'askwomen' might as well signify 'get validated by women'. (if you want to go down the rabbit hole of emotional labor and how that frequently ends up getting divided gender-wise)

Given how much more often I see guys arguing with female answerers in AskReddit threads aimed at women (or even just flat out telling them they are wrong!) than I see the reverse, I honestly think this has something to do with it.

Plus some MRAss types that really just want to try and spread their propaganda.

LOL Next door is just people complaining about everything they can. "A car I don't know is parked in my neighborhood and I don't like it !!!" One person came on and asked if they could stop running the trains through our town bc they don't like the noise

There's a long-closed community center that is being converted to a few dozen apartments. A few people are piiiiiiissed, 'why can't it be reopened as a community center? Why can't it be affordable low income housing? There isn't enough parking (someone responded that it was going to be full of hipster millennials who hate cars)...

For me it usually becomes obvious in the wording of their question/title post whether or not it’s a genuine question or a chance for them to sealion/argue about feminism lol. Prime example was that ridiculous, “Women, what do you think about Jordan Peterson?” tripe from a few days ago. I opened it, read the title post, and was 0% surprised that the thread got locked within 2 hours. The OP of that thread just constantly mocked and argued with the women that replied, yet when called out tried to claim that they were “just curious” and “wanted to know what women thought.” But he only argued vehemently with the posters that said we didn’t like him. Like yeah okay, you totally came to a women’s sub loaded with armfuls of evo-psych bullshit about why we’re inferior just because you’re curious. 🙄🙄🙄

AskHistorians nicknamed this behavior “JAQing off,” (Just Asking Questions), after frustration with neonazis/holocaust deniers “curious” about how the holocaust could have been pulled off. They’ve now explicitly banned it.

AskHistorians nicknamed this behavior “JAQing off,” (Just Asking Questions), after frustration with neonazis “curious” about how the holocaust could have been pulled off. They’ve now explicitly banned it.

You know the type of guy that says women can't be in positions of power because of their supposed "frail" characteristics? That's him. Seriously, screw that guy. I have two little sisters and the last thing I want is some jerk-wad like that discouraging them from being strong, successful, and independent women.

You can always try asking if you want - I'm sure people here would be okay about it since you're genuinely curious about the answers? And probably won't call everyone who disagrees with you stupid because of that

I think most of them are out for validation. They don't want actual opinions, they want a pat on the head. So many questions about hair, about bodies, about clothes, about underwear, about socks; what if I tan, what if I don't tan; are shorts okay, are pants okay; do women really care about money; and on and on and on. And when you don't give them the answer they want their fragile ego is bruised and they have to argue. Always need to be right. Always need to throw in an opinion where it's not asked for or warranted. My favorite is when I got into it with the sock guy and he called me "emotional". Like JFC you're in a women's sub looking for validation and then call a woman emotional because you didn't like their answer to you. Fucking god.

It's just an easy cop out. Same as saying something like: "you must be PMSing, I'm not going to talk about this any longer" when you have a legitimate reason for being upset. Don't have a good argument? Tell her she's emotional and walk away!

In fairness I am glad she did. It is something that irritates me and I am glad I am not alone. I don't want to have to keep justifying my existence or why I like something, when the person asking has no interest unless it fuels their ego.

It’s so annoying, and it’s mainly prevalent in threads where women are asked “what’s your dealbreaker” “what do you find unattractive” “what do you not envy abot being a man” or something of the sort. I think it’s insecurity and feeling the need to explain/defend themselves?

Yeah I think a lot of them see someone's preference that doesn't include them as a personal attack on them. When it's not. I'm sure if I went to AskMen and found a post about their preferences for women, a lot of the comments would involve things that would exclude me. But what does any of that matter, I'm not trying to date those men and I'm not going to argue with their preferences because I don't need to explain myself.

I don't go read those threads because I think they would make me feel bad about myself. Why come here and ask what I'm attracted to if you're feeling so fragile that the opinions of random people on the internet will crush you?

I've only done it once. I saw one thread and seeing all the guys who wouldn't date women of my race did make me feel bad so I don't look at them anymore. And even then I still didn't go through and argue because like...what is the point? I can't make them change their minds.

Cause they either don't realize that they're really sensitive about it, or they legitimately think they'll hear the answers they want because women totally only love men for their personalities and don't have any other kinds of preferences ever.

Right? I'm not gonna argue with guys who aren't attracted to me. It's not like any argument you make will make them attracted to you, besides, who wants to date someone they have to argue into finding them attractive?

I actually felt compelled to thank a dude who was in here the other day, because he said that he hopes I get what I want out of life after we had a discussion about how I don't want kids, marriage, or cohabitation.

I find it sad that I felt like thanking someone for being a normal, respectful human being, but that's what it's come down to. I'm just so used to random strangers shitting all over me and arguing with my life choices.

I catch myself wanting to do that too, or upvoting guys who aren't complete asshats about women's issues. Like, is the bar we set that low? And sadly I think the answer is yes, on reddit but also in life a lot of the time.

Ugh, the deal breakers and unattractive ones. I always chuckle when I see questions for men like "that kind of women do you date" and I'm like "the ones who like awkward nerdy guys?" Why would I get hung up that there are women not into that when plenty of you are? Oh right, probably because the real problem is a shitty attitude or something and facing that would require someone take responsibility for themselves.

Oh man, I kind of grin when I see posts asking those kinds of questions, because I know that, in just a short time, the comment section will be filled with insecure and validation-seeking people replying to internet strangers' answers and asking for reassurance that the commenters were talking about other people, but because YOU do it for xyz reason, you're totally the exception to the rule.

I think the best option for everyone, to avoid derailing/unnecessary responses, is to just avoid those threads. Those threads are bound to exclude SOMEBODY, and rather than waste your time commenting to try to defend or justify yourself (not you particularly, you in a general sense!), you should just understand that you aren’t going to date that random internet commentor, understand everyone has different perspectives/preferences that may not include you, and move on. Or just avoid them.

Yeah people are entitled to date whoever they want to. I remember once someone mentioned that they didn't want to date a student because they were a working professional and then someone else chimed in with "But what about med students????? They're in school until their 30s!!!!!" Like cool story bro but how is that OP's problem?

Especially when it comes to your own personal choices, I don't get the point of being offended about it. Some people won't date me because of my job or my beliefs or my pet preferences or whatever else. So what? Those are all choices I've made, and I am a-ok with them.

Dealt with this phenomenon a few times. One just a few days ago. They're insecure. They're used to being listened to. They like being right. They want women to gather behind their opinions to reinforce them but when women don't ... they must be spoiled brats. That's the term he used ... spoiled brat ... for daring to disagree with him.

I did a lot of "what about the men" type shit when I first started coming to this community like... 5 or 6 years ago (maybe more) under a different username. I was in a pretty lonely/sad place, and while I had female friends, I think interacting in a community not run by and mostly populated with women, was pretty jarring. Things got better for me here, and in real life when I started changing a few things, specifically.

owning my words, and choosing them more thoughtfully.

realizing conversations don't have to become debates, and recognizing you learn more listening than talking.

A greater understanding of how statistics and genuine academic studies/research work, and understanding how my personal biases were confirming inaccurate information, and challenging those biases.

Deciding to, and attempting to be more empathetic and curious. This eventually lead to me understanding and later on supporting ideas that previously I was uninterested in.

Anyways, as a mod, seeing it every day is pretty infuriating, I try to help those who are open to it but the way the internet works in 2018 is so different to 2012 or the 2000's when I was a teenager. Seeing the way hate groups and trash "movements" recruit and envelope large amounts of young men is pretty disheartening, and while I know I probably the vast majority of men are unaffected by these extremes, I can't help but wonder how many were like myself and the target demographic for these types of recruitment campaigns. It's pretty disheartening how easy it is to go from having a shitty interaction on a sub like this, due to a poor understanding of an idea and glib thoughtless commentary, then to turn around to one of these groups and quickly reinforce a dumb idea.

It'd be really nice if Reddit made it more difficult for these hate groups to operate, and I look forward to the day they stop turning a blind eye to such a gross misuse of information and start looking at this problem proactively.

I did a lot of "what about the men" type shit when I first started coming to this community like... 5 or 6 years ago (maybe more) under a different username. I was in a pretty lonely/sad place, and while I had female friends, I think to interact in a primarily female community, was pretty jarring I think. Things got better for me here, and in real life when I started changing a few things, specifically.

Anyways, as a mod, seeing it every day is pretty infuriating, I try to help those who are open to it but the way the internet works in 2018 is so different to 2012 or the 2000's when I was a teenager. Seeing the way hate groups and trash "movements" recruit and envelope large amounts of young men is pretty disheartening, and while I know I probably the vast majority of men are unaffected by these extremes, I can't help how many were like myself and definitely the target demographic for these types. And it's pretty disheartening how easy it is to go from having a shitty interaction on a sub like this due to a poor understanding and glib commentary, then to turn around to one of these groups and quickly reinforce a dumb idea.

owning my words, and choosing them more thoughtfully.

realizing conversations don't have to become debates, and recognizing you learn more listening than talking.

A greater understanding of how statistics and genuine academic studies/research work, and understanding how my personal biases were confirming inaccurate information, and challenging them.

Deciding to, and attempting to be more empathetic and curious. This eventually lead to me understanding and later on supporting ideas that previously I was uninterested in.

I did a lot of "what about the men" type shit when I first started coming to this community like... 5 or 6 years ago (maybe more) under a different username. I was in a pretty lonely place, and while I had female friends, I think to interact in a primarily female community, was pretty jarring I think. Things got better for me here, and in real life when I started changing a few things, specifically.

Couple days ago someone asked on r/askmen about lady troubles. I suggested they get some perspective from AskWomen and the only replies I got were that AskWomen has no perspective, blows things out of proportion, etc. Typical gaslighting stuff.

My guess is AskMen has been lost to the nice guys and the neckbeards. All the best 'ask' posts come from here anyway.

I visit that sub every now and then because I'm interested in men's opinions too, but i always end up leaving because the mindset of at least some of the userbase freaks me out.

The other day I popped by and read a thread where they were talking about keeping old naked photos of their ex girlfriends. Basically they were saying, keeping naked photos of exes is the equivalent of an ex gf stealing a hoodie.

Saying that was one thing, but then they went into how women shouldn't be surprised that men post them, and one guy was like "If you aren't comfortable with your naked photos being shared on the internet you shouldn't send any" pretty much talking about it, like if a woman sends the naked photo of herself to her then bf then she shouldn't be surprised if he uses it as revenge porn later.

I was like nah, fuck this I'm out. Gonna go read r/legaladvice now to be reminded that there are revenge porn laws in place that prevent this kind of thing..

It's really sad because I like the idea behind it and sometimes they have some interesting threads, but it doesn't feel like the kind of place that wants to hear from or welcome women to me.

women shouldn't be surprised that men post them, and one guy was like "If you aren't comfortable with your naked photos being shared on the internet you shouldn't send any" pretty much talking about it, like if a woman sends the naked photo of herself to her then bf then she shouldn't be surprised if he uses it as revenge porn later.

I mean if someone says that as a caution, that makes sense. There are really fucked up people, and if you send naked pictures you are at risk.

If they say it as a justification, which sounds like the case, then that's just idiotic. Someone putting themselves at risk doesn't exonerate you from being the fucking danger.

I've tried to follow AskMen a few times but I ultimately ended up avoiding it specifically because it seems to be overrun with guys who are content with thinking and acting like a sitcom version of a man.

i think i rmb someone asked how to get women to like them and someone suggested the exact thing you did, and one of the answers i saw was something like it makes more sense to ask men because they're the ones more experienced with attracting, so their experience obviously speaks more. Basically men know what women want more than women and women give vague answers, only men can give the exact formula to attract a female

But u/RazorSnowflake didn’t say the majority of this sub is misogynistic. He or she said that the men who ask questions and then incessantly argue with the women who respond are the misogynists and trolls.

Is it usually the OP who argues against the answers he gets? That's frankly ridiculous behavior, and sounds like he came with an agenda in mind.

If other men respond with arguments, it could be that they were just browsing the responses, felt offended at one of them, and wanted to voice their disagreement. This isn't the sub for that, but a lot of guys struggle to understand that concept.

Yes! I was at a women in (Hobby) event recently, and a dude showed up. He put forth a controversial opinion ("You're saying I shoudl take women seriously, but i can't, because I am more interested in whether or not I can get with them."), and a number of women responded why that POV was problematic.

He got another turn to speak, and basically reiterated his point. I cut him off. He was butthurt that "[he] let all these women speak," but we weren't letting him speak, so misandry!

I was like "Dude, this is a WOMEN in (hobby) event! We are not here to listen to dudes talk! This is the wrong audience for you!" and he was all huffy and offended that something could exist and not be about him or his dick.

I think it at least partly comes from the fact that in the last decades, actually much longer than that probably, they're the ones who were being catered to almost exclusively. Everything went through guys, even women's affairs and anything affecting minorities too. So now it probably feels like oppression and sexism to them because all of a sudden they notice how exclusive it is.

I personally love the "sexism is never ok no matter what!" crowd when talking about women's only meetings or events. You always have a few concerned people in there going but if it's not OK for men to do this why is it for women!? It's so exhausting to explain. And once you try you notice they've just once again put themselves at the center of attention.

I think it at least partly comes from the fact that in the last decades, a tally much longer than that probably, they're the ones who were being catered to almost exclusively. Everything went through guys, even women's affairs and anything affecting minorities too. So now it probably feels like oppression and sexism to them because all of a sudden they notice how exclusive it is.

I personally love the "sexism is never ok no matter what!" crowd when talking about women' 's only meetings or events. You always a few concerned people in there going but if it's not OK for men to do this why is it for women!? It's so exhausting to explain. And once you try you notice they've just once again put themselves at the center of attention.

This sums up the attitude of most of the men over 45 that I've ever come to know in my life. Even today I had to deal with two of them with this attitude, men I didn't even know coming up to me in public to comment on something I was doing and then becoming pissed because I didn't give them attention.

Can you please elaborate? From his comment I took away that the guys who argue with other commentators don't realize that this isn't a sub for disagreement, but from yours (and several others) it seems like the situation is being taken as those men thinking all spaces are for them. Personally, I think arguing and discussing things with people is what a thread-based forum is for, but I'd like to make sure I'm not misinterpreting anyone's position.

"Our mission is to provide a place where all women can comfortably and candidly present their viewpoints for community discussion in a non-judgmental space." (emphasis mine.)

Behaviors specifically prohibited in the rules:

No pot-stirring.
No agenda questions. This is not your personal soapbox.
No derailing. Talk via PM or start a new thread.
No invalidation.

While men can still offer input, if your view conflicts with a woman's, we ask that you do not downvote or invalidate her response. (emphasis mine)

Now, if you come in, as a man, to a space where the mission is explicitly provide a space for women to feel comfortable sharing their opinion in a non-judgmental environment, where pot-stirring, agenda, derailing, and invalidating are all prohibited behaviors, and you say something like, "b-b-but isn't arguing what a thread-based forum is FOR," isn't that imposing your own definition of what something is for and what YOU are familiar and comfortable doing with it, onto a space that's not for you? This space is for discussion, NOT ARGUING. Your idea that's what it's "for" is your own opinion, which is shared by many men, who don't seem to care that the sub is EXPLICITLY for women and not for arguing. It's like they can't fathom that discussion =/ arguing, and that women want a space where men aren't trying to verbally dominate them and fight them at every turn.

We have noticed it's a pattern that men come here to impose their thinking of what is correct and how things "should" be onto us when this space is for us and not them. So that's why we take it as those men thinking that everything is for them. Everything should serve their ideas of what they want and how things should be.

where pot-stirring, agenda, derailing, and invalidating are all prohibited behaviors

I get what you are saying and it makes a lot of sense. I think were we, and maybe other guys, get thrown off is the quoted part above. I do not understand what the cutoff between continuing a discussion or asking for more information ends and where the above begins. I am unsure if this comment or my previous one are grounds for removal or being banned because there seems to be such a thin line between invalidation/derailing and discussing a disagreement.

"b-b-but isn't arguing what a thread-based forum is FOR,"

That was poor wording on my part, I had meant 'arguing' more like 'debating' and not 'fighting'. I guess a better way to word my thought would be that I think any thread or forum is a place for discussion and, at times, disagreement as long as people can act appropriately.

That was poor wording on my part, I had meant 'arguing' more like 'debating' and not 'fighting'.

Alright, but again, this sub is not for debate, either. In a debate, people confront each other with opposing arguments. That is not what this sub is about. People have different, conflicting opinions, and they state them. The conflicting opinions co-exist. They are not debated. They are all there, like a salad. The point is that differing opinions can exist and WE DON'T HAVE TO DEBATE THEM. People can have differing opinions and that's not a problem at all. What a thought!

I think any thread or forum is a place for discussion and, at times, disagreement as long as people can act appropriately.

What I'm trying to get across is that coming here as a guy with this idea of what YOU think a place is for, can be for, or should be for, instead of finding out what WE think it is for, and acting accordingly, is exactly what we are referring to.

Saying "here's what I think this is for and what's appropriate here" while not completely accepting, understanding, or not even finding out what WE think our own space is for or what's appropriate, is acting like this space should center you, and your opinions. Essentially, that it should please YOU.

The point is that differing opinions can exist and WE DON'T HAVE TO DEBATE THEM. People can have differing opinions and that's not a problem at all. What a thought!

I don't think people having different opinions is a problem, but isn't what we're doing right now two people debating something while also allowing those different opinions to exist? I don't think debating is mutually exclusive from having multiple valid opinions.

Saying "here's what I think this is for and what's appropriate here" while not completely accepting, understanding, or not even finding out what WE think our own space is for or what's appropriate, is acting like this space should center you, and your opinions. Essentially, that it should please YOU.

That's what I'm trying to do right now, I'm trying to figure out how this space works so I can understand it and act appropriately in it and I don't think I can do that without stating my current perception of it and spaces like it.

Hoooold the phone. I've been in your exact shoes before, upsetting someone without knowing why, when all you're doing is trying to learn. Let me try to bridge the communication gap here that's causing you to rub /u/cory44 in very much the wrong way.

What you're doing is stating what knowledge/opinions you have so that the other person knows where you're coming from, right? Not trying to state how things should work, not trying to claim how you think things should be, not trying to assert your view over anyone else's, or anything like that. You're just saying your position so that the other person can more easily tell you what's wrong with it, or tell you what information you're missing/not considering. You're giving them something to go off of, so that they have a better idea of where your thought process might be wrong, so that they don't have to teach you from scratch. You're trying to be helpful, right?

The issue is that, depending on the context, this can be difficult to convey without very explicitly stating your intentions.

I'm not sure if this is a "guy thing" in particular, but when guys come here and say "I thought it worked like [blank]" or "Isn't it usually [blank]?" or something, while they might not be trying to say anything like "THIS SHOULD WORK THIS WAY BECAUSE I SAID SO!", it ends up inadvertently coming across that way. A lot of people in this sub have had lots of experiences with men who were actually doing that, just trying to assert their opinions over others, so unless you take extra care to make it clear that that's not what you're trying to do, you end up being lumped in with those aforementioned awful dudes.

In other words, this is the conversation going on right now.

You: I thought it worked like this?
/u/cory44: It's not about what you think.
You: I know, but don't things usually work this way?
/u/cory44: This isn't a place for you to decide how things work.
You: I was just under the impression that [blank].
/u/cory44: Not everything works how you think it does!

You're not backing up or apologizing about your behavior because you're absolutely clueless about what you're doing wrong, and you're repeating yourself to try to demonstrate earnestness (in other words, going "This is the only amount of knowledge that I have! I swear!") and give as clear a picture of where you're coming from in the hope that /u/cory44 can tell you where you're misguided, so that you can better yourself. Meanwhile, /u/cory44 is getting annoyed because you keep doing the behavior that she's telling you isn't appropriate, but because she's treating you like the kind of person you're behaving like, you're not picking up on her meaning at all. From your perspective, it feels like she's telling you to stop doing something that you're already not doing, so you have no idea how to behave better.

My advice to you (and I'm talking about in general, not this specific interaction with /u/cory44) is to emphasize the fuck out of the humble aspect to your intentions, and explicitly apologize for upsetting others. (Regardless of what you meant, regardless of how another person might seem to be wildly misinterpreting your words, the fact remains that a person is bothered because of things you said, and it's a good gesture to try to own up to that.) If all my assumptions are correct, then if I were in your shoes (and holy fuck have I been in your shoes a bunch before I figured all this out), I'd say something like what I have below. Because the nature of this place, and the nature of the kinds of jerks that often show up here, this kind of humility and detail is needed in order to come across well. Does this all make sense?

"I wasn't trying to say how things should be run here, and I'm really sorry for giving that impression. I really do want to learn what behavior is appropriate here, and I was just stating my thoughts in the hope that you could tell me where I was going wrong. I wasn't trying to imply that my thoughts were correct or how things should be, I was just trying to show where I was coming from. Of course, you're not under any obligation to educate me, and I'm really sorry for bothering you as much as I have. I'd truly appreciate any guidance you're willing to offer, but if I've already tried your patience enough by this point, I totally understand."

I swear, every few days, men post on there about how women like super muscular guys, and women answer and say, not really, personally. And then the men argue that they’re lying for the rest of the thread.

I get this one dude PM'ing me or replying to my comment almost every single time I mention how I prefer chubby to fat guys. He grills me about why I don't like muscular men, and asks me how I could possibly like fat men.

I'm not sure why he reaches out to me about it so often, but I mean.. even if he doesn't realize I'm the same person as last time (how could he not? I mention how we already talked about it), it's still suuuuuper weird that he feels the need to harass someone when he sees their own personal preference, especially when it's the same topic each time, and my affinity for big bellies literally has no effect on his life.

Plus their insistence that women are lying about it helps them justify their distrust and hatred of women. Like, maybe they're thinking "She says she's into fat guys but I know she'll cheat on me with a muscular guy if she gets the chance, so I won't date her!". Can't get hurt if you reject them first.

I find subs about male issues interesting because, just like women, there's male specific problems that are worth the discussion and need to be acknowledged. Unfortunately, those two subs (and many others) are so ... hostile and it's more of a pity party that it's hard to feel sorry for anyone in there.

I agree with a lot of their frustrations and I believe they are entitled to their platform where they can share this and find support.. but most of the incels tell each other to hang themselves, don't support one another for the betterment of each other and have extremely ridiculous ideas that are just unrealistic or incorrect. I feel sorry for them in the sense that I agree everyone wants to be loved, but they are too hateful and something they consider an issue is like... some women being fat? How does that anger them that much and how is that an intelligent discussion?

There are some amazing subs for these topics, though.. such as r/MensLib or, even though this one is pretty specific, r/short .. The guys in those are really chill for the most part and the conversation is always worth a read.. Oh, and they won't shit on you or dismiss your opinions for having a vagina.

Just curious, do you happen to know the meaning of "braincels?" Like how is that different from incels? Are they trying to make a distinction there, is that a subset of incels, are they making a strange and obscure pun or reference?

I'm not entirely sure. It could be a pun on "brain -cells" but the sub existed prior to r/incels getting banned so when it got shut down, they moved to r/Braincels. A lot of them consider themselves to be "high IQ" or too smart for women or normies so perhaps that's what they are trying to say with that.

So they divide themselves up into the primary reason they think they are incels. If they're short they'll call themselves a heightcel. If they think it's because they're fat, fatcel. I think the ones who thought they were too smart and that's why they couldn't get laid (rather than the fact that they're insufferable assholes) started that sub.

There was one post in AskWomenOver30 about trying to make "female" friends and honestly couldn't grasp why calling women "females" in general was a bad idea and argued with our advice. They don't want the advice.

I have no idea, but I see it all around. Like, I'm pretty sure they do it just to argue with women because they have whatever set belief and if women are challenging it or making them think too hard, all they can do is argue back at them. They are fully convinced that women are all the same and that whatever the guy thinks is fact, even when it's not about them, at all.

we women do this just as often. "What are some qualities you don't want in a girlfriend?" "Overweight" "Wow stop fat shaming!"

I would say women do do this, but would you really say they do it just as often? Like yes you see it over certain issues, but are women really flooding male-focused subs to argue over every little thing and every opinion a guy states?

Honestly the fact that you asked a loaded question in the parent post and chose to argue with dissenting responses like this one indicate that this may not be a gendered issue. You're pretty much doing the exact thing you're calling out.

I think it's just human nature to sneak an assertion in as a question and then push a point of view in the resulting discussion. Or use a loaded question as a means to draw out and "disarm" anyone who holds a contrary opinion.

Yeah, I agree. A lot of my friends have very shallow expectations for guys and then wonder why they can't find a good guy. But typically the things they care about are surface level -- what music he's into, how he dresses, the car he drives, etc. That's all stuff that changes over time. My husband has wildly different music tastes now than when we met 12 years ago -- he's also a way better dresser and I couldn't really give a shit what car he drives as long as I'm safe in it. But I didn't date him for any of those reasons, it was because of who he is and his values, his moral character and the fact we share the same ideals where it's important to me. Then I just bought him some shirts I liked.

I think the difference always comes with the messaging around it -- there's just more expectations for women and we're more openly criticized for things men do without question. Our appearance is judged harsher and is linked to our self worth and how society values us. Men can be fat and ugly all they want and still be taken seriously -- or still be the lead on a 90's sitcom with an unrealistically hot wife who he emotionally abuses and neglects, lol.

But yeah, a lot of girls can be shallow af and it's almost like the "nice guy" syndrome, but they're wondering why they can't find a "nice guy" when all they care about are materialistic things. And lots of my friends are still dating or married to great dudes of all body shapes and sizes and heights, with varying personalities and interests. I think it has to do with a sense of entitlement and a general lack of self-awareness for both men and women.

Male perspective, bear with: I mostly lurk here - don't really ask questions, so this is more observation than experience.

It's probably one of three reasons:

1) They want to be validated in their hobbies and when they're not they get upset because they're immature. Unsurprising if they try to learn how to socialize or be attractive on Reddit.

2) They came here to start a fight because they don't like you. The most exhausting of people.

3) It doesn't fit your example but on some occasions, it could be that their experience contradicts the answers they're seeing, and their objections are valid based on the information they have. If they do so politely, that could be an interesting discussion. If they don't, it won't.

Today there was the troll who was confused about what queer signaling was and asked (instead of like, applying some of those strategies they taught you in elementary school reading class) and then flamed out spectacularly.

After the initial question I answered but felt that he was likely a jerk, and yepppp confirmed.

Sounds like OP just wants an echo chamber. What is the point of asking us (not men) why men (not us) do a certain thing? How are we suppose to know? PSA: We're not men and we cannot read a man's mind. Since OP actually doesn't give two shits about what men think, the question should read "What you all think about men that X but then X?"

You’re not. OP wanted womens’ theories and opinions on when men come to AskWomen and do this. Since this sub is called Ask WOMEN, I think it’s fair to...you know, ask women on why they feel men do this. How is that creating an echo chamber? That would only be true if OP knew for a fact that all responders would feel the same way – but there’s no way for OP to know that. She has to ask to know, and she’s using the sub correctly to find out.

Actually, there are many reasons why you would ask a third party's opinion on why a person does something, because you will get a different opinion and often more objectivity or insight. When I want to know why someone acts like a tool sometimes I will ask them directly but sometimes better answers can be gotten by asking the people who know them.

Also, another reason I asked women is because I prefer not to converse with men about social issues, and I especially prefer not to converse with men about social issues while we are all anonymous on the internet. Few men respect this, even in a sub dedicated to asking women. Further showing why I don't enjoy conversing with them. Even on a sub dedicated to asking women things they feel they must thrust forth their own opinion and criticize people and argue.

Excuse me? You asked a question, I replied. Don't ask a question if receiving a reply is upsetting for you. And yes, I want women's thoughts on why men do things. Not sure why that was confusing for you given where I posted.

I can't speak for everyone, but anytime anyone asks a hugely braod question about other sex, like "Why do men [insert question here]" I ignore it and assume the person isn't going to listen to the answer because they are not able to discern that you can't paint an entire sex with a broad brush.

I'm a man, and I do play games, and I still find it an unattractive hobby. Honestly, I consider it more of a time-sink than a real hobby, and if someone asks me what my hobbies are, I normally don't even name it. It's like if someone says "watching tv."

I definitely consider video games to be a passion and a hobby of mine, but I can see how it could be unattractive if that’s like... a really central piece of somebody’s identity. If the person has little else going on — as is the case for many gamers — then yeah, that’s kinda lame.

I think there are way to many genres of games to generalize if I like someone because of it.

If someone tells me he playes LoL, WoW, CoD, etc. I'm going to have are worse opinion of them, than when they play other games (Journey, The Last Of Us, etc.).

I think it's way harder than if they say they like movies or watching TV. Already in terms of time it takes: Games vary greatly compared to 90minutes for movies and 20-45 minutes for TV-Shows, excluding commercials. LoL matches are repeated and are around 10-45minutes long, while playing through LastOfUs takes between 4-8hours...

They’re not asking out of genuine curiosity, they’re asking with the purpose of people saying something they take issue with so they can argue with it. Or they want to reinforce something about themselves. Example:

Man asks women what they find attractive in a partner. Girl lists things that don’t pertain to that particular man. He was looking for someone to list his traits and reinforce his personality, not tell him he doesn’t fit their ideal, so he becomes personally offended

Rinse and repeat, it happens constantly here and in r/askmen. Just stop asking questions to the general public that you’re asking for your own personal insight. You’re just gonna get your feelings hurt.

Pointing out and using the word mansplain does not mean you hate men? So pretty easily, I'd imagine. I agree that there are sexist comments on here but I think the use of mansplain is not inherently sexist.

There's a huge difference between hating men and hating when a man argues with a woman about what it's like to be a woman.

I don't use the word "mansplain," because I find it to be as silly and unnecessary as "man bun," "man purse," etc., but I don't think it's correct to assume that everyone who does use it actually hates men.

Because they have a preconceived answer to their questions; which is dumb if you come here for advice. As a guy with anxiety I dont understand because I love the advice I have received from this sub. Cheers ladies (:

Speaking as someone who has done this - they're only asking for someone's opinion. That doesn't mean they'll agree with or understand that opinion. Asking a question by itself doesn't preclude follow-up questions, disagreement, or further discussion.

I'm guessing they didn't expect answers that conflict with their worldview and are getting defensive...although I don't know why they'd be asking that question if they weren't prepared to be open minded?

With that one I don't get why it is even that strange people find it unattractive. So many people just sit for hours or can spend a whole day or weekend on a game. Cool if that is what you want to do, but to me it is unbalanced. I feel the same about people who watch that much tv, netflix, use social media, reddit, etc. I feel like life is too short to spend that much time on an escape. I would feel different if they were designing a game, or went conventions, etc. Like they built skills around the hobby. But just sitting for hours not being productive is unattractive to me. But others might feel different.

I don't think it's that. I think that we grew up seeing TV shows where gamers and nerds were losers with no friends so we expected that. Now it is in our heads and it is hard to get out. It's our issue to get over but it effects other people

My guess is that a lot of men have a fragile sense of identity a lot of the time (especially cishet white dudes) so when their hobby of Gaming is viewed as unattractive they interpret that as an attack on their identity and immediately get defensive. Men tend to be really insecure about any perceived attacks on their identity and when they feel attacked, most men who have that insecure sense of identity will choose to fight rather than flight as flight is seen as cowardly which would further be perceived as an attack on their identity even if it is considered self inflicted.

Why would I bother asking there when plenty of men like yourself barge into this sub to tell women what they should think and what they should do, even though it's against the rules of the sub for you to behave this way? If I wanted a male opinion I already get plenty of them just by asking here.

It’s just reddit being Reddit. I’ve even seen some of us argue with responses we get from guys on other subs. I’m not even exempt from this little fiasco. I believe that it’s just in our nature to be in disbelief of other opinions that contradict our own and want others to share our mentality. But as long as this stays civil it’s no problem.

To be fair, I see this behaviour from women as well on others subs that aren't targeted towards one gender. People often don't want an honest opinion or perspective - they just want affirmation or reinforcement from other people about what they already think.

Do you see a pattern of women badgering AskMen with relentless posts about how men feel about X, Y, and Z – and then arguing incessantly with the male responders? I don’t. It’s human nature to want affirmation for our beliefs but I think it’s dishonest to deny the fact that many men like to, and frequently, argue against women’s opinions on literally everything under the sun. For every woman who has an opinion, there will be a man going, “Well, AKCHUALLY...” in response.

While I agree with what most people here are saying (they just want validation or to yell at women) I also think that it may be how they perceive their question and the answers vs how this sub does. So for the gaming example, I would honestly think it's weird if a girl found the hobby unattractive because it is so common and most guys I've met do it, but the women answering may be thinking of someone who only does it or revolves a large portion of their life around it.

Not saying they're voicing that disagreement in a good way all the time ofc, just that it may be mostly due to the different perspectives making the other side seem warped.

I get that, but when they start debating people's personal preferences or personal experiences, then that's going absolutely nowhere. There is no way to debate someone's personal preferences or experiences into changing.

Sometimes it is just an additional follow-up question that is interpreted as arguing.

In your example, responding to "gaming" with "that's a dumb thing to find unattractive because gamers tend to be awesome, sociable people who are a lot of fun to be around"...

Is different from responding with a follow up question of: "Really? I'm friends with a lot of gamers and they tend to be really awesome sociable people and I really enjoy spending time with them. Have you had different experiences with gamers, or do you just not like awesome, sociable people"?

Haha, to me, your second example is an argument snuck into the form of a question, so while the form is slightly different the intent is basically the same. Like it's not a genuine good faith question but an attempt to show how the person is wrong and argue. And try to get away with it by "technically" having asked a question. "Waaahhh now I can't even ask questions??? This sub is sooo unfair."

I really this one's perspective on this varies by individual. I have a background in investigation, and I have frequently found that in ordinary life, people get very defensive when you ask them questions - even when it is a genuine question with no agenda behind it.

Think of the IT guy who comes to look at your computer when it has locked up. He'll ask "what were you doing when it locked"? Some people won't take any offense to this question and will just describe what was going on prior to locking. They understand that the IT can better diagnose the problem if he knows what was going on before the problem occurred.

Others will take offense and think that there is an agenda behind the question. They hear "what did you do to break the computer". The standard response is "I wasn't doing anything".

When that disconnect happens so frequently in real life, give-and-take conversations, it is not surprising that it would happen frequently on message boards like reddit - where you don't even have body language and tone of voice to add in to interpretation.

I feel a serious disconnect with what you are saying - like maybe you have a point but you are picking really, really bad examples.

Let's take a look at this:

"Really? I'm friends with a lot of gamers and they tend to be really awesome sociable people and I really enjoy spending time with them. Have you had different experiences with gamers, or do you just not like awesome, sociable people"?

Countering someone with "Really?" immediately will put most people on the defensive the majority of the time because it sounds like you think they're full of shit. No one likes to be talked to that way. In addition to that, the phrasing of that question at the end is more of a statement with a question mark at the end, and leaves no room for the person you are conversing with's experience to be heard.

Something like "My gamer friends tend to be awesome, sociable people in my experience. What kind of behavior have you encountered that makes you feel otherwise?" This leaves it open and puts much less judgment on it.

Honestly I'm with the other commenter that question comes off pretty argumentative. " Awesome sociable people?" that sounds really biased. You can like gamers all you like but if someone doesn't like them, who cares what you think? She's giving her reasons and that's how she feels and it definitely sounds like an attempt at invalidating valid feelings because you feel otherwise. Now saying "I feel differently, out of curiosity, what experiences have you had?" is a completely different question that leaves your obvious bias out of it. I don't mind gamers at all but if someone said they didn't like them and told me why, hey fair enough. You should respect that and not give a passive aggressive "you must not like good people then!"

It's an innate quality inside all humans to fight with perceived bias and a difference in viewpoints. In other words, we just want to understand why someone would think something different from us when we are so convinced of the other.

In reality, it's better to just accept that people see things differently and opinions are subjective, as well as understanding that some people troll hard and enjoy pissing others off for sport.

It's an innate quality inside all humans to fight with bias and difference in viewpoints. In other words, we just want to understand why someone would think something like that. In reality, it's better to just accept that people see things differently and opinions are subjective.