Sunday, July 30, 2006

Sad Qana...

Qana, is a Lebanese village, a small village that I know.In the matter of fact, almost everyone in the region knows Qana, and that's not because of it's beautiful nature, nor because of any certain thing the villagers of Qana do better than the rest of Lebanese people, and not because a famous leader, poem or writer comes from it, no, not because of any of that.Qana is very famous, because of a massacre that happened in it, ten years ago, in April 1996 "Israel" bombed that village killing tenths of civilians. And today, the very exact thing happened again."Israel" bombed a civilian building, killing over 57 un-armed civilians, out of 63 people that form two families (yes, two whole families) "Shalhoob" and "Hashim".Among the 57 people that were murdered, 37 children. Thirty seven children.T h I r t y S e v e n C h I l d r en.

Is it possible to have enough tears to be shed over them?

Needless to say that "Israel" said/will say that weapons were hidden in the village.

"Israeli" army and decision makers are cowards and inhumane, thinking that by killing more and more people, they will create enough pressure to gain whatever political demands they have.

They have always been, and are only cowards.Even in the battle ground, they are weak and they are cowards, how else did a tiny hardly trained group like Hizbollah beat the hell out of them in every direct fight since the beginning of this mess? They are supposed to be number 13 on the list of the most powerful armies in the world, and yet, Hizbollah which is not even an army, made them a joke in front of the whole world. They only know how to press the buttons, and kill civilians from distance, they are not men enough even to be able to do it themselves.

And the world's reaction? Of course they will condemn! What else? And if they tried to work out any practical solution, guess who will use the Vito to stop it?

Yes, you are right.

Oh wait, I am so sorry, I lied, I hid an important peace of information: Condi is sorry!how sweet is that?

Over 750 civilians killed this far in Lebanon (including five from the one family in another location in the south today, too) and thousands injured, and counting.

228 Comments:

Yes they are they are, they are as guilty as if they had pressed the button themselves. They are guilty because Hizbllah makes them guilty, Hizbollah locks them into the cellar and them fires rockets from behind the building, Hizbollah in the criminal here. and as long as Hizbollah continues to operate from Lebanon the people of Lebanon will continue to die. And they will have died for a lost cause, one that will never succeed.

The truth is those deaths are the responsibility of Hezbollah. The Hezbo terror masters intentionally place military equipment as close to children as possible to maximize civilian casualties and their PR points. The sad reality is, Israel cares more about Muslim Civilian casualties than Muslims care about Muslim Civilian casualties.

"but they bombed the roof of the building not the launcher behind it???? "

I really don't like to discuses these thing because they require you to use cold hard calculations that remove you from the human facts on the ground.

They bombed the building to remove the cover used to fire the rockets, the launcher is a secondary target after the rockets have been fired, the building is a primary target to prevent the next series of rockets from being fired from a blind.

All Hizbollah has to do is move their operations out into the open and there will be no more rockets to worry about. But they are not as stupid as they think we are.

Here is a thought! \maybe\ hizbollah should inform all "israelis" to leave all their cities and then they can start really, i mean "really" shooting misslies on neighbors and killing people ( we all know that hizbollah have much bigger toys than the ones he used till now), and then holding the killed ones the responsibility for their death because they didnt leave!maybe for example, destroying a building and killing 57 people in it, what would you think in that case? whose fault would it be?

"10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

is this somethign written to smear the bible or is it really int he bible?so is number 16 behind what is happening in Palestine and Lebanon? case basing on it religion men in "israel" said that its alright to kill civilians in Palestine and Lebanon.

somebody explains this to me, cause it sounds to me like a call in the bible to make mascares against civilians with God's support, and i want to make sure that this is not written by someone that wants the followers of the bibile to look bad. or maybe if it was translated to english in a way that gives different interporation, or that it can be interporated in another way, somebody help me!

khalid do u know that none of the so-called isralis are the original inhabitannts of that land .,...trhey are mostly from europe who came to palestine after holocaust ....bastard killers ....hezbollah is totally justified in firing their arses

It is deeply distressing to see Israel killing civilians, targeting ambulances, killing UN observers, and destroying an entire nation's infrastructure. The latest brutal attack in Qana is shocking.

Israelis seem so convinced that they are victims, yet here, they are the aggressors. Israel began its campaign of bombardment BEFORE Hizbollah ever fired a rocket into Israel. Far from making civilians safer, this war is an act of provocation, one that will stir up greater hatred around the world (as we already see in Seattle).

I am Jewish (and an American citizen) and deeply deeply against both U.S. and Israeli foreign policy. Violence begets additional violence (endangering hundreds of thousands of Lebanese -- and, albeit to a far lesser degree, threatening civilians in northern Israel). Israel is fighting a proxy war and serving U.S. foreign policy. The end result may look something like Iraq.

There is no security without peace -- and U.S. / Israeli actions have made peace in the MidEast a near impossibility.

Khalid, As a Christian, I know the four Gospels, much better than what we refer to as "the Old Testament", and Christ's call for forgiving your enemy and turning the other cheek, render such massacres and slavery an evil relic of the past. Stunning how many so called Christians conveniently ignore Jesus's very UNmilitary utterances.

Though not quite as stunning as Israel's argument that 14 more days of bombing is "needed". What the #*$^$^#&*%&^$ do they think they'll accomplish? Has anybody EVER destroyed a guerilla group or terrorist group through air strikes???? What kind of asanine idea is all this?? Are they going to try a bigger ground force? Did they already forget how "well" their last occupation of Lebanon went?

The only thing more flatline then Israel's "learning curve" is the EKG of the slaughtered.

Ask your American readers what tactics were used against the Brits in 1776.

Stephan, my American Jewish Brother, run for presidency in Iraq and i might vote for you.

could you possibly explain to Americans and Israelis why do you believe in all that please?

Ano.

I hear you man, its shamfeul how people now think that God is ok with killing people in Iraq but at the same time burn in rage when they see a man kissing a man.what a world!

Guys, we have to seperate between jews and zionists, alot of jews are against twhat Israel is doing. I know alot of jews are even against Israel itself. It's a matter of a human eye looking at reality and seeing what is justice and what is not, and labeling people just doesnt do anyone any good. I know alot of American Jews that are doing great work against the war in Iraq.

Khalid what does the old testament have to do with today's wars? Do you think people go around looking at stone age writings to make sense or for justification for actions today? Can you name any western states that have slaves today? I can name at least two Islamic states that still have open or defacto slavery in today's world. Maybe you can educate us on the Quranic verses that make it all OK.

Hey Mad Tom, Americans are using the Old Testament all the time to justify violence and killing. Revelations is also quite popular for blind support of Israel. Let's be clear that two wrongs never make a right, and another's sins do not give me (or anyone else) permission to sin.

If the US were a little less self-righteously hypocritical, it'd be a better world. Not perfect, but a da** sight better.

PS What other Islamic state do, has little relevance to any justification for Israel's over the top destruction of Lebanon.

OK let me get this straight, if the US imports good from around the world, from places were they daily wage is $0.00 per day, and that wage goes up to maybe &1.00 per day because they can find work exporting goods to the US and around the world, it's slave labor....

Khalid your friends are communist.

Let me ask you Khalid, where do the parts to your families water purification business come from, do you manufacture it all yourself locally, or do you import the parts and put together the systems you provide your customers?

Now without the services Khalid provides for his customers, people would die of all kinds of nasty thing like parasites and dysentery from drinking foul water.

Funny thing madtom. I think their were plenty of Central American countries that have been enslaved by US economic policies for years and kept in line by death squads. Haiti comes to mind again where the US supported the overthrow of Aristide. Who of course was democratically elected. In the ME of course the Iraqi people have definitiely been forced to work for US interests or risk death.

As for wages I believe US policy is find the resources, support the people who are willing to provide them at the cheapest cost and disenfranchise the rest of the population. Again there's a long list of central American countries whose history exemplifies this practice. This is also Walmart's way of business.

my god! most of you commenting on this site should be ashamed of yourselves. are you with out any scruples?!

dozens of children, CHILDREN mind you, have been slaughtered in cold blood. their lives, family and future brutally ripped out from beneath them.

maybe I should be more generous here ----- do you even know what children are???? for my own sanity, i’m going to assume you don’t.

bottom line, there are no excuses to be offered here that could expunge israel of responsibility for these unbearably odious actions. there are absolutely NO excuses for such violent depredation of innocent life. if you disagree, then you truly do not value human life, your axis in all this bloodshed is not the sanctity of human life. I feel sorrow for you, I could never imagine being quite so dead inside, or so bereft of love for my fellow man & woman.

by treating others in such a way, remember, you are setting yourself up for such abject treatment in kind. be an example of how you wish to be treated. your cold rationalizing comments reveal more about yourself than anything, especially your lack of love and respect for yourself. but still.... I wish the best for you because I, unlike some people, am not discriminate in my respect and reverence for humanity.

your behavior is morally obtuse and it is regurgitatingly sickening.

what would gandhi would think of you?

...and by the way, no party or individual can make another party or individual guilty of anything. no one can assign another person guilt through their own actions or dislike of another’s. guilt is born of wrongdoing and the wrong doing belongs solely to the entity committing it. to think guilt can be bestowed by a simple geographical association or a single aspect of common identity is preposterous, mere fallacy. all the innocent civilians were “guilty” of was their location, which is - was - their HOME. they were “guilty” for simply existing as so, as arabs, in a hostile land within a morally bankrupt world. and mind you, no one chooses their place of birth and respective circumstances. did you?

Haiti is kept poor by the corruptions that reigns supreme, all you have to do is cross the island to the Dominican Republic. And it's not like there is not any corruption there, but it's at a level were people can live a life. When was the last time you saw a boat load of Dominicans trying to flee their country, unlike Haiti, or Cuba or the Central American countries.

How about Chili, the abandon the regressive policies of the past and have a new economy and political system that rivals those of some European countries. But I thought we were going to stay on topic.

the old testmy thing is related to the issue because it was used byt he hakhamat (jewish "priests" thats what we call them in arabic whats the english word?) in "Israel" issued a "fatwa" saying that the murdering of people in Qana was totally ok because the old testmony says so.

Oh excellent Khalid, I can't wait to hear all about the protocols of Zion.

Whatever.

A lot of Israelis seem sick to death of Hezbollah and Hamas and like propaganda. Basically, it doesn't wash much with the rest of the world either. Despite the media storm Hezbollah is trying to stir up in it's aid.

Anyway, now that we've established Iraq's modern borders were drawn onto the map at about the same time as Israel's modern borders, what exactly is the problem. You know, we could just wipe them all off again, but then the poor Palestinian militia would have no marker to test how far their imported rockets can launch from and they would probably just draw the lines right back in the same place. That's about how much rational sense the war mongering demands of Hezbollah and Hamas make.

What about the war mongering demands of Israel? The actions of Israel are a form of ethnic cleansing in which all people in the south of Lebanon are being pushed back from the border and in far too many cases killed. Humanitarian aid is unable to reach the most needy because agencies fear Israeli bombing.

Certainly Hezbollah's initial attack on Israeli soldiers (and I emphasize that this attack was on soldiers, NOT civilians) was a provocation. Israel's reaction in which it bombarded Lebanon (with American made bombs) was highly warlike and escalated the fighting out of all proportion. Of course, Hezbollah responded with rocket fire.

As far as I can determine, Israel is committing war crimes in Lebanon. Hezbollah rockets fired on civilian zones are likewise a violation of the Geneva Conventions (but the death and destruction caused by the Israeli war machine far outweighs Hezbollah attacks on civilians). Looking at it from Hezbollah's point of view, I can see why their support is growing. They are fighting the Israelis who are destroying Lebanon.

Israel's actions time and time again are aimed to crush people, to rob them of dignity, to humiliate. How can peace be achieved under such conditions?

Potential for a lasting truce would be much greater if Israel offered full right of return, reparations to Palestinian refugees, redefined itself as a multi ethnic and multi religious state, apologized to all Lebanese, and agreed to a dialogue with Hamas as well as Hezbollah.

Thanks Khalid for your kind words. I'll try to explain more of my reasoning in a future post.

"Certainly Hezbollah's initial attack on Israeli soldiers (and I emphasize that this attack was on soldiers, NOT civilians) was a provocation. Israel's reaction in which it bombarded Lebanon (with American made bombs) was highly warlike and escalated the fighting out of all proportion. Of course, Hezbollah responded with rocket fire."

How can people be rewriting history already, it's not even over yet, and it's already distorted.Remember all this started because Hamas was about to sign a document that recognized Israel. That was the catalyst, that sent a fire through Hamas and Hizbollah.

You got that it was a peace deal that started this war!You sure your want to call for another "peace deal" you want to kill more people or something.

These people will not have peace, conflict is all they have to offer and they are not going to let anyone take that away from them.

Lebanon thought is dangerous and expensive to challenge Hizbollah, so they just left them alone, though it was the easy way out.Now they know just how expensive it really is to just leave them alone.

The war crime is to let terrorist take over your country and not lift a finger.

Sorry, Khalid, but I must, in general, go with madtom for two reasons: He seems to have the knowledge and wisdom to see the big picture here, and he is a Floridian as am I. ;-D

It is very likely that Hezbollah did lock those people at Qana in the cellar and fire the rockets toward Israel from behind the building. They infiltrated a Christian village in South Lebanon today and fired rockets from it. The residents report that they were powerless to stop them. Israel fired back. So, who is really responsible, the instigators or the responders?

Hezbollah is instigating this carnage because there were indications that Hamas was considering returning the kidnapped Israeli soldier. Hezbollah is a rogue organization acting outside the legally elected government of Lebanon. If peace should come to the Middle East, Hezbollah will be out of business, but Hamas will survive because they are the legally elected government of Palestine.

At first, I was upset about how Israel had responded in Lebanon but now that they have blasted Lebanon, they need to finish the job. The same is true with Iraq. The rogue militias must be eliminated before there can be any peace in spite of the terrible human and economic costs, because the ultimate cost will be even worse.

Americans know this more than many others. The War Between the States, known now as the U. S. Civil War, was one such experience. More than 3 million Americans fought in it, and over 600,000 men, 2 percent of the population, died in it. There are no records as to how many non-combatants died, but there were many. My great grandfather and two of his brothers fought for the Confederacy, which lost. However, we remained the United States of America. Was the cost worth it? You bet it was.

If these 37 children were in our own hands and care, and they were threatened by something, would not any one of us intervene to protect them? Would our hearts not race until the danger had passed? Because we were not physcally holding the hand of one of these children does not make our obligation for their safety any less. What is the point of trying to defend the indefensible? The children are dead from bombs made in the USA and supplied to Israel. Israel dropped those bombs, killing the innocents. Do not further digrace yourselves with rationalizations. Demonstrate repentence by calling for a cease fire. Children are not soldiers, they are victims. VICTIMS!

Separate between Jews and Zionists? Uh, yeah. Right away. But first let's segregate the Palestinians from the Muslims. That way it will be easier to make up anti-Palestinian signs and shout "we want peace! Palestine is an imperialist agent!"

And just to keep things in proportion, take out a map, look at it. Consider the size of Israel. Consider the size of Lebanon. Then consider the size of Saudi Arabia, Iran, the former Soviet and the currently decaying US. Hull-o-oh.

Dearest MadTom: "Khalid what does the old testament have to do with today's wars?"I am sorry to shatter your tiny worldview, but it would be an excellent assumption that Zionist Israeli jews might be taking words from the TORAH to heart? The Old Testament=The Torah, slick.So yes, jews accepting Torah has to do with everything in this arena of debate.I did find it kind of sexy the way you pretended to have military experience and claim a tactical reason for bombing that building. Since you seem to have not understood anything from Yugoslavia or Groznyy, destroying a multi-story building provides excellent cover and not the other way around. It is more likely that faulty intelligence (provided by geniuses like you) was the root cause of the bomb being deployed 10 meters short of the target.Was the Qana massacre staged?! Ask legitimate questions!Was 911 staged? Was Tonkin Gulf staged? Was Pearl Harbor staged? Was the burning of the Reichstag staged? Was the Mexican Letter staged? Was the sinking of the USS Maine staged? Was the burning of Rome staged? plz plz plz plz do not ever post anything online ever again plz. Thank you sincerely.

omfg MadTom is from Florida and he is unaware of Dominicans arriving on our shores in boats also? Dude. Seriously, do you even leave your house, or do you just keep your eyeballs glued to Fox News?If you set up a Paypal account, I will pay you money every day you do not post online. Think about it.And Mimi, accusing MadTom of seeing the big picture made me throw up in my mouth. Thanks alot.

Apologies to Akkadia, but how you treat someone in business says a lot about how you value people.Here in the US brown skin is a greenlight to many employers to pay them less.

The children of Qana are dead and feel no pain. The children working in US factories in thirdworld countries suffer physically and mentally.

Mad Tom should read up on US "intervention" in Central America. Plenty more dead children there.

And what happens when Wal Mart is happily paying .01 a day by proxy to workers than finds out that a more desparate coutry will do the same work for .005? They abandon the first group to exploit the second.

(Their US workers are in their own slave wage world)

And WOW don't Americans with their bursting households and overfilling landfills, need more stuff to store in their rented storage units as they try to shop their way to some Madison Avenue idea of happiness.

Construction workers in the US used to do pretty well, till those that hire started exploiting illegal immigrants....who in addition to being paid less, often work in unsafe enviroments, feel helpless to complain and can be cheated and abused.

Shall we celebrate their happy increase in income?

It's not communism to expect people to be paid fairly for their work.

Nice bit a name calling. Study at the Rush Limbaugh school of debate did you?

Isreal may want to consider purchasing Katyusha's from Hezbollah as the deaths seem to indicate farfewer civilians and far more soldiers killed by Hezbollah: Ibelieve it is 60% soldiers. the Israeli's and those guided missiles seem to have killed 80% civilians. Either tese weapons aren't quite as good as Katyuasha' or Hezbollah has a lot of people locked in basements. One thing we know from watching theMe is that Israel Doesn't try to inflict maxi,um damage. I mean if they did their would be a huge diparaty in the number of deaths on one sideover all the years right? Perhaps the Palestinians have learned to lock people in their basements too!

Well all I have to say is who else is offering these people any work? I know WallMart is a whore and will sell it's self the to the lowest bidder, but who out there is doing anything at all, who lifts one finger to empower these people to better their situation? No one, no one lifts a finger, and the more repressive a countries regime is, the more it's loved around the world. I guess that's why the gringo's all want a wall, it must be to keep In the masses yearning to be free, and have a chance at a better life.

"Hezbollah: Ibelieve it is 60% soldiers. the Israeli's and those guided missiles seem to have killed 80% civilians. "

What an all out lie. Hizbollah has not targeted one soldier with their rockets, and about 100% of the resulting death from those rockets has been civilian. Hizbollah was able to fight Israeli soldiers when they got in their face, but their rockets have killed only civilians, and even arab civilians, arab children actually.

Human Rights Watch has determined what has been evident from following events. Israel has been committing war crimes in Lebanon -- and as Juan Cole notes "HRW's investigations do not bear out the excuse that the high civilian casualty rate is because of Hizbullah hiding among civilians."

Check out the following link and excerpt of the HRW report.

Stephan

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/02/lebano13902.htm

Israeli forces have systematically failed to distinguish between combatants and civilians in their military campaign against Hezbollah in Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said in report released today. The pattern of attacks in more than 20 cases investigated by Human Rights Watch researchers in Lebanon indicates that the failures cannot be dismissed as mere accidents and cannot be blamed on wrongful Hezbollah practices. In some cases, these attacks constitute war crimes.

The 50-page report, “Fatal Strikes: Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon,” analyzes almost two dozen cases of Israeli air and artillery attacks on civilian homes and vehicles. Of the 153 dead civilians named in the report, 63 are children. More than 500 people have been killed in Lebanon by Israeli fire since fighting began on July 12, most of them civilians.

' Human Rights Watch researchers found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians.

In one case, an Israeli air strike on July 13 destroyed the home of a cleric known to have sympathy for Hezbollah but who was not known to have taken any active part in the hostilities. Even if the IDF considered him a legitimate target (and Human Rights Watch has no evidence that he was), the strike killed him, his wife, their 10 children and the family’s Sri Lankan maid.

On July 16, an Israeli aircraft fired on a civilian home in the village of Aitaroun, killing 11 members of the al-Akhrass family, among them seven Canadian-Lebanese dual nationals who were vacationing in the village when the war began. Human Rights Watch independently interviewed three villagers who vigorously denied that the family had any connection to Hezbollah. Among the victims were children aged one, three, five and seven.

The Israeli government has blamed Hezbollah for the high civilian casualty toll in Lebanon, insisting that Hezbollah fighters have hidden themselves and their weapons among the civilian population. However, in none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in the report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah was operating in or around the area during or prior to the attack. '

New York, July 18, 2006) – Hezbollah's attacks in Israel on Sunday and Monday were at best indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas, at worst the deliberate targeting of civilians. Either way, they were serious violations of international humanitarian law and probable war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

In addition, the warheads used suggest a desire to maximize harm to civilians. Some of the rockets launched against Haifa over the past two days contained hundreds of metal ball bearings that are of limited use against military targets but cause great harm to civilians and civilian property. The ball bearings lodge in the body and cause serious harm.

Hezbollah has reportedly fired more than 800 rockets into Israel from southern Lebanon over the past five days, killing 12 civilians and wounding many more. The vast majority of these rockets, as in past conflicts, have been Katyushas, which are small, have a range limited to the border area, and cannot be aimed with precision. Hezbollah has also fired some rockets in the current fighting that have landed up to 40 kilometers inside Israel.

“Attacking civilian areas indiscriminately is a serious violation of international humanitarian law and can constitute a war crime,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “Hezbollah’s use of warheads that have limited military use and cause grievous suffering to the victims only makes the crime worse.”

On Monday, Human Rights Watch researchers inspected a three-story apartment building in Haifa's Bat Galim neighborhood after it was struck by a rocket around 3:00 p.m., causing extensive damage to the top two floors and wounding six residents, one of them seriously. They collected metal ball bearings that had pierced the walls of the apartment building across the street and car windshields up to one block away.An Israeli ordinance removal expert at the scene told Human Rights Watch that the rocket used in the attack had a 240mm warhead. According to media reports, Hezbollah announced that it had fired dozens of Raad 2 and Raad 3 anti-tank missiles into Haifa in response to “aggressions against various Lebanese regions.” An Israeli military official told the press on Sunday that Hezbollah had fired at least three Syrian-made Fajr-3 missiles.

On Sunday, a Hezbollah rocket killed eight workers in Haifa’s main railway depot. Doctors who treated the wounded told Human Rights Watch that the rockets contained metal ball bearings. The ball bearings have increased the number and seriousness of injuries from rocket fire, the doctors said.

“In my medical opinion, they [these rockets] are supposed to injure as many people as possible,” said Dr. Eran Tal-Or, director of the Surgical Emergency Room at Haifa's Ramban Hospital. “If you wanted to bring down a building, you would make a weapon with a heavier blast. And you wouldn't bother with the balls inside that don't do much harm to buildings; just to people.”

Human Rights Watch interviewed three railway workers at the hospital wounded by the ball bearings in Sunday’s lethal blast.

“There were three loud booms and I started running out of the depot,” said Alek Vensbaum, 61, a worker at the Israel Train Authority. “One of the guys, Nissim, who was later killed, yelled at everyone to run to the shelter. The fourth boom got me when I was nearly at the door, and I was hit by shrapnel ... I was hit by ball bearing-like pieces of metal in my neck, hand, stomach and foot.”

Sami Raz, 39, a railway electrician, said a ball bearing pierced his lung and lodged near his heart. “I had terrible difficulty breathing after I was hit,” he said.

Twelve people were wounded in the attack, four of them seriously.

Under international humanitarian law, parties to an armed conflict may not use weapons in civilian areas that are so inaccurate that they cannot be directed at military targets without imposing a substantial risk of civilian harm. Such attacks can constitute war crimes. Deliberately attacking civilians is in all circumstances prohibited and a war crime. HRW

HRW Report: (Via UrShalim)Human Rights Watch produced a 53 page report on Israel's atrocities and violations in Lebanon. The report can be viewed online or downloaded from their site. Following are excerpts from the summary of the report:

This report documents serious violations of international humanitarian law (the laws of war) by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in Lebanon between July 12 and July 27, 2006, as well as the July 30 attack in Qana... the cases documented here reveal a systematic failure by the IDF to distinguish between combatants and civilians.

Since the start of the conflict, Israeli forces have consistently launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military gain but excessive civilian cost. In dozens of attacks, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some cases, the timing and intensity of the attack, the absence of a military target, as well as return strikes on rescuers, suggest that Israeli forces deliberately targeted civilians.

The Israeli government claims that it targets only Hezbollah, and that fighters from the group are using civilians as human shields, thereby placing them at risk. Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack. Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those cases do not justify the IDF’s extensive use of indiscriminate force which has cost so many civilian lives. In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack.

to download: http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/lebanon0806webwcover.pdf

(taken from http://lebanonheartblogs.blogspot.com/2006/08/hrw-report.html)

The Israeli government had already shared its plan to attack Lebanon (evidently on a Powerpoint shown to U.S. gov't officials some time back) and then bombarded Lebanon with grossly disproportionate force relative the Hizballah attack on Israeli soldiers. Israel bears a huge responsibility for an inhumane escalation that has killed close to one thousand Lebanese (many of them women, children, and the aged).

Israel has no right to violate the Geneva Conventions. It has no right to commit war crimes. I'm tired of hearing excuses about Israel having the right to "defend itself." This goes far beyond a matter of defense. HRW has identified many of Israel's actions as war crimes.

I likewise condemn the Hizballah rockets fired into civilian areas. But, let us remember that the Israeli military machine is a far more lethal force and indeed has bombed many, many, many civilian targets including: clearly marked ambulances, civilians fleeing, civilians sheltering in basements, hospitals.... the list goes on. (The largely false excuse that Hizballah hides among civilians does not in any way justify Israel war crimes).

Civilians in Lebanon are paying a horrific price (with hundreds upon hundreds dead) as Israel attempts to drive all inhabitants out of the south of Lebanon.

Civilians in Israel are also suffering and scores have been killed.

One cannot place all blame with Hizballah. Israel had many options including negotiation. Instead it chose to blast Lebanon to bits. Hizballah soon responded with its own rocket attacks. Note: Israel chose to escalate what had been a border incident into a full fledged war.

The U.S. government seems happy enough to allow Israel to continue its attacks. As such, in my view, the U.S. is complicit in Israeli war crimes (given that the U.S. continues to ship weapons to Israel and has blocked a UN resolution for immediate ceasefire).

All government keep war plans on the shelf, I see no reason to condemn Israel for having the foresight and percussion to have "a plan" in fact it's a plus on their side.

HRW has identified "war crimes" on all sides as you can see for yourself. I can not condemn Israel for having greater firepower, you would think that those that started this war would have known the consequence of their actions. I never heard of anyone fighting a war and not trying their best to destroy their enemy and using all or most of what they have at their disposal. As we all know Israel has not in fact used all force at it's disposal, they still have many more troops and tanks, and planes at their disposal that they have not yet brought to bear.

And I can not fathom how you release hizbollah for fighting from civilians. What is Israel to do? Just not shoot back every time and enemy fires from a populated area? How fast would they lose or how long would the war in fact last? years decades.. You will have to expand on that theory a bit more before I am able to understand.

I know the civilians in Lebanon are paying a high price, and I wish it on no one, but they made this choice, they had other choices, they had 15 years to dismantle hizbollah, other militias in the country disarmed, I could start listing them, but you probably know them better than me. Why do we now give a pass to hizbollah. We should give praise to those other militias, and frown on Hizbollah that would not go where every other party went, and then started a war.

If we now start pampering hizbollah every time it gets angry and fires rockets, what message do we send to all the other people that did the "right thing" and transformed into solely political parties? I need you to explain all that to me before I can move one inch in your direction.

Heard an interesting and reluctant admission from a Lebanese "academic" yesterday. Yeah I'm putting that in quote marks, she was doing a panel discussion with two other Lebanese "academics" who were gutless wonders too. They all showed intellectual weaknesses, which I won't go into here as it would interrupt Khalid and Stephan from comparing their dead.

Anyway, she was asked whether there was any anger at Hezbollah among Lebanese citizens, for leading their country into a war they had not a hope in hell of surviving without mass casualties, and after an embarrassingly long bluffed pause she finally said yes there was (anger at Hezbollah) but that Lebanese citizens were not talking about "that" and were instead concentrating on Israel being the enemy.

Sounds like Lebanese citizens are being encouraged to practice their doublethink.

"Doublethink: The practice of thought control necessary to be a good Party disciple. No Party member can ever admit that the Party might be wrong. However, sometimes reality shows something to the contrary. Through using doublethink, the Party member can deal with any problems or inconsistencies with the Party. Party members simply block all awareness of the Party's falsities from their mind and then, as another act of doublethink, they forget that they have even used doublethink.

Somebody might suggest to the Ministry of Plenty that it might be a good idea to shelter civilian bodies as well as civilian minds.

Seriously. What have Lebanese civilians and "academics" to fear in expressing dissatisfaction with Hezbollah and why did a Lebanese academic deem it important to concentrate on Israel being the enemy, instead of concentrating on things like moving dissatisfied civilians to safer areas?

You asked what Israel was to do. An immediate ceasefire would be a start followed by negotiation. Israel chose to bombard Lebanon after a military border incident. Israel chose to escalate this into a full scale war. Of course Hizballah responded with rocket attacks. Israel could have made choices other than full scale war and it still could.

Instaed, it appears to be headed to a full scale occupation of southern Lebanon and more deaths on both sides.

In terms of Hizballah shielding itself behind civilians. This is largely an excuse given by Israelis to hide war crimes. The Israeli government makes this claim (it appears all too often without any evidence) as a matter of course.

Why is Israel bombing the Lebanese Red Cross? Why did it shoot missles directly through the cross on ambulances? Why was Qana bombed? I just don't buy that these are mistakes or meant for Hizbullah targets nearby.

A truce is achievable. Apparently Hizballah will agree to it. (Notice the reduction in its rockets during the 48 hour reduction in Israeli bombing.) Hizballah has warned that if Beirut is hit again, it will fire on Tel Aviv. According to Juan Cole, an Israeli military official now threatens that if Tel Aviv is hit "all of Lebanese infrastructure will be destroyed. AFP doesn't state the man's name, but he needs to read the Geneva Conventions." Such threats show a grave loss of humanity and concern for human life.

There is no military solution here madtom. An immediate ceasefire followed by negotiation offers greater hope to both sides.

I do understand that Israelis live with an existential fear, I think perhaps as a long standing response to the Holocaust. Hizballah (despite its rocket fire on civilian areas) is not an existential threat to Israel. As long as Israel keeps attacking Lebanon, Hizballah will respond.

It's time to stop this war and address the civilian suffering. Stephan

There is no military solution here madtom. An immediate ceasefire followed by negotiation offers greater hope to both sides.

Unfortunately in this case that is delusional, Hizbollah has already proven that it is not an honest partner. Remember that this war starts as the result of just the type of negotiation that you espouses. This war is the result of Hizbollah not wanting peace to be signed, for no other reason but that it wanted to refocus hate towards Israel and to make peace impossible. The Hamas government and PM to his credit was willing to move the negotiation forward, was on the eave of agreeing with President Abbas on a united way forward, when radical factions within Hamas and their supporters in Hizbollah decided unilaterally that peace with Israel was out of the question and opted for war.

Peace will only come with these peoples funeral. They have proven that they are not interested in peace or negotiations. These things REQUIRE A PARTNER

I think your minimizing the facts, Israel was attacked on two fronts, had incursions into it's territory, that military equipment destroyed, soldiers killed and kidnapped. Did you happen to see what they did to the last US soldiers that were kidnapped? And was taking fire from rockets, from two directions. Had in fact been taking rocket fire from Gaza for months, and there was a constant escalation. first it was a rocket here and there , by the time Israel reacted it was tens of rockets a day.

Hezbollah has successfully negotiated prisoner exchanges with Israel in the past. One of the more recent exchanges took place in January 2004 with Germany negotiating the exchange. Why did Israel go ballistic this time? Could part of the motive be THE INAUGURATION OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST STRATEGIC PIPELINE ? This took place on July 13 and the key players were the United States, Israel and Britain.

Maybe they're tired of dealing with people that only have their total destruction in mind. Maybe they're fed up with dealing with proxies, and figures they'd flush out the hidden hands into the open. Maybe it's all about the new oil leases in the Gulf of Mexico. Chances are without the new violence many people that opposed opening those new fields would never have given in no matter the compromise. you never know.

Madtom, you are a sick fuck. Cuba ia a happier place without you, you batista sob. As usual for any murderous self-serving right-wing nut, you are full of shit. Why not back up your Israel victim story with some facts, eh?

To Castro's health?

Apologies, Khalid. I am not in the habit of ad hom attacks on someone else's blog. Might I suggest you moderate your blog comments to keep people like him and me (I'm normally very sweet) off? If you look around at any other message areas on the net, such as the BBC boards or any blog, you'll see that madtom's are attracted to mboards like flies to shit. My theory is that since they are, like American news networks, determined to prevent critical discussion. They are not discussing, they are terrorizing (to use a popular term).

I'm sorry the government to which I pay taxes and which has granted me a passort has ruined the country you live in. I, like you I'm sure, am glad Saddam is not in power... but it is sad that you are being occupied by another (or several others by the looks of it) that is also no friend to democracy (don't believe their hype).

it is always interesting to visit http://lebanonheartblogs.blogspot.com/i believe that no matter how many times a day you visit it, you'd always find a new post.it is written by a number of Lebanese bloggers.

Put it this way, if you don't want to be stung, you don't mess with a hornets nest, do you. And if a party is planning a picnic in the meadow, a party doesn't throw spears at the bull or wave red flags, does a party. Likewise, if a body plans to stay alive, a body doesn't climb over the fence and into the lion's den.

The unfortunate part, is that when a juvenile imbecile, usually male, does one of these inadvisable things, the hornets sting more then the twit with the stick, they sting anything in the vicinity and the bull, while charging, tears up the whole china-shop, and the lion, has a whole pride to feed.

Like Bruno, Hezbollah thought it could win support by stirring up a backlash and then whining for sympathy "Anoint my poor stings! Mend my china! Sew back on my arm!" But it isn't working, people are sick of this shit, people are tired of sewing Humpty's leg back on, and sweeping up the carnage, and drying out the tomato stains and burying bodies while Mr Nobody draws pictures with the bloody salt.

Some quarters ought to be more intellectually honest and accept the consequences of their actions.

you got it right my friend, specially about the part where we -both me and yo- are happy that Saddam is gone, but not happy at all with what he was replaced with.I prefer to let people talk what they want as much as they dont use foul language.Madtom as a person is nice but alot of the times is very irritating when it comes to his political views and i want to punch him in the face (haha sorry Tom). and he does sound like a right wing war monger alot of times i have to say. and i have no idea whats for him in defending Israel al the way here, i have o idea. still he represents the opinions of alot of people that watch the mainstream media and listen to the white house speeches and like Fox news. and he -as mean as he can get sometimes- still sometimes mentiones important points that the main stream media would talk about and that needs easy and quick clarification, giving me and others who have time to follow up with the comments a chance to reply for them. So after all we all irritate each other but help each other learn something, isnt that the point?

Israeli (U.S.) invasion of Lebanon as yet one more move in the neocon chess game to undermine Syria and Iran -- with the ultimate goal U.S. control of oil. The scenario Juan Cole sketches out could indeed be plausible. There's lots to support it.

The price -- destruction of Lebanon, war crimes committed by Israeli troops with American weapons, making one million people homeless -- doesn't seem to bother bushco at all.

Then again, bush has almost no understanding of lebanon, iraq, syria, iran -- you name the country.

and i have no idea whats for him in defending Israel al the way here, i have o idea.

I do not watch any mainstreet media Khalid, non at all.

I support the Israeli position because they are in the right, and Hizbollah is not. Can you imagine a criminal gang receiving money and orders from another state, starting a war with a neighbor, with no authorization from the home state? Only in the APU would this be a defendable position. As a matter of fact this is illegal in almost any civilized country I can think of. I believe it would carry the death penalty here in the US.

[madtom] “I support the Israeli position because they are in the right, and Hizbollah is not.”

Wait … isn’t this the same person that said in response to the Qana massacre:

[madtom] “Yes they are they are, they are as guilty as if they had pressed the button themselves. They are guilty because Hizbllah makes them guilty …”

In other words, we have an ethnic cleanser and an apologist for war crimes saying Israel is in the right?

Yeah, makes sense.

Only in the American Paranoid Empire (APE) would this be defensible.

[pme] “ Put it this way, if you don't want to be stung, you don't mess with a hornets nest, do you. […] Like Bruno, Hezbollah thought it could win support by stirring up a backlash and then whining for sympathy "Anoint my poor stings! Mend my china! Sew back on my arm!" […] Some quarters ought to be more intellectually honest and accept the consequences of their actions. ”

So any consequences are acceptable as a result of any action? Any consequences are justified as a result of any provocation?

That’s just balderdash. That’s just reverting to the law of the jungle.

I guess that we can shoot a shopkeeper in the head the next time he short changes us.

Or ram someone off the side of a bridge if we get cut off in traffic.

Or justify the Holocaust by pointing out that Germans felt “betrayed” by the Jewish citizens amongst them.

Or destroy an entire country by reacting to the kidnapping of 2 soldiers.

Fact: what Israel is doing is wrong, and is unjustified by the provocation. The entire world sees this and despises you for it. You will find precious few non-Israelis and non Americans even trying to defend these actions. I cheer every Israeli soldier exterminated by Hezbollah, for as long as this invasion persists.

A war concocted by the White House neocons who are looking for a pretext for a war with Iran. Israel is playing on a U.S. orchestrated chess board of geopolitical domination. Lebanon is shattered, but the end goal is a neocon invasion of Iran.

http://www.alternet.org/story/40042/

Meanwhile Lebanon is being destroyed. Israel continues to commit war crimes and the U.S. continues to block a call for immediate ceasefire.

And the tension mounts world wide with the latest threats on airlines.

There is no need to apologies to anyone. Hizbollah is a criminal organization that takes money and marching orders from Iran. Operating out of Lebanon, with it's leadership safely hiding way in Damascus. Attacking Israel to stop the democratic process in Palestine territories, and the democratically elected parliament from signing an agreement with President Abbas recognizing Israel, and hopefully putting Hamas on a path to peace.

But you find it easy to support this behavior. How?Oh I know, you hate jews and americans.

Last I heard Hizbollah refused to sign up to the French plan. Called it a give away to the Israelis and complained it blamed them, Hizbollah for starting the war.Who would have guessed from a French draft?

So Stephan you think if there were no Bush we would all be safe from the terrorist fanatics, well everyone but the Spanish, we all know they are occupying Spain.

What was it that Clinton did back in 95 when the first attacks of this type were first conceived. neo-clintinites? don't have the same ring to it.

could you come down from your space ship and join us?:)oh and, again, what is it for you in supporting israel like that? is it a they-are-jews= they are right thingy?are you jewish?oh wait, this last question got Mil Gibson in trouble, we take it back:P. no really, no need to answer that, its irrilevant.

Madtom!how exactly did you manage to put the word "israel" and "democracy" in the same sentence?other than the simple fact that they occupy the land that they are on, did you ever bother yourself readong about the rights of Arabs and Arabic villages inside "israel"? (who are in case you forgot or trying to forget"israeli" citizens not mentioning that they are the LAND OWNERS!) did you ever care to know that roads in any settlement are up to best standards in the world and villages right next to them inaside "israel" have roads that can hardly be called roads? did you care to see in night how cities of jewish majority inside Israel glows with brightest lights while the ones in Arabic cities inside "israel" are misrable and have the least services possible? did you care to know that arabic cities and villages dont have shelters or sirens to warn them if there is any danger? did you care to know that "israel" other than occupying Palestine's land also steals Palestinian water? did you care to know that inside "israel" the share of a person of water is over 1000liter/day/capita and in Palestine reaches less than 100? meaning Israelis take ten times the palestinina share of water, the water they already stole it from Palestine? no wait this is all just the beginning of it, let me tell you more.....oh no wait..nothing can ever change your opinion at all, i figured through time madtom, not facts, not numbers, these little thingies are so irrivilant to you, and "israel" stays the promised land of democracy... *patriot songs in the background*

and Hizbollah, Iran and Syria and IMPERIALISM in the same sentence!!!! omg!! omggg!! this is just totally...totally.....coool!you just through that sentence in any political siences college in the world, even inside "israel" and they will probably execute you for it.I am not trying to be mean, just funny:*)

Arab citizens of Israel are Arabs who are citizens of the State of Israel. Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process, though like minority populations in many countries, Israeli Arabs face significant challenges within the broader society—which is made more complex by the fact that they have many ties, including family ties, to Palestinians in the West bank and Gaza. Arab residents of East Jerusalem, annexed by Israel in 1980 [1], are eligible for citizenship, though most choose not to exercise that right.

Israeli Arabs comprise around 15% of the country's total number of citizens (19.5% when East Jerusalem residents are included).[1] They call themselves or have been called "Israeli Arabs", "Arab citizens of Israel",[2][3][4] "Arab Israelis"[5] and "Palestinian Arabs in Israel".[6][7][8]

Most Israeli Arabs, including 170,000 Bedouin, are descendants of the 150,000 Arabs who remained within Israel's borders during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and of the Wadi Ara Palestinians who came under Israeli jurisdiction as part of a territory exchange under the 1949 Armistice Agreement with Jordan. As many as 200,000 others have emigrated into Israel from the Gaza Strip and West Bank, receiving citizenship under family-unification provisions. Israeli Arabs include 120,000 Druze and 180,000 Christian Arabs.

The large population of Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews, who fled or were expelled from Arab countries, mostly after 1948, or who are the descendants of those refugees, are not usually identified as Arabs, although many of them and their ancestors were traditionally Arabic-speaking. In addition, around 170,000 Palestinians were estimated to be living illegally in Israel as of 2004.[9]

The majority of Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel are excluded from military service.Wikipedia

I don't know Khalid, I think what your describing are the Arabs that live outside the Israeli democracy, those that live under the thumb of Arab tyrants that have keep those people living in squalor on purpose to punish the Israeli state. People like Hizbollah, Syria, Egypt, and even Jordan witch does not recognize their own people Palestinians from the west bank and the refugee camps being more Jordanian than anything else.

What happened Khalid, you don't think the Iranians are trying to get the south of Iraq? Funny I could have sworn I heard someone talking about Iranian influence in the south, about Iranians trying to get their hands to control the oil fields.

You have not heard about the Iranian influence in Basra/ how they arm the militia, how they are right now getting ready to fight Maliki. You want me to post the story.

If that's imperialism, I don't know what is?But anyway you did not quote me correctly.

"Arab citizens of Israel are Arabs who are citizens of the State of Israel. Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process"

see what i am saying? just no facts or numbers would ever change your mind, you only send info out of your system, but never really get any back in it when you get a feedback, i swear sometimes one might think that i am talking to an automatic answer machine that takes the hot words out of what i say and reply basing on them, this time it detected "Arabs+israel" and automatically gave me the pre-made paragraph for it. this very much is the only way i can explain your responses.

well, you can call US a communist country then madtom, after all there is social security isnt there?of course you cant, because even though one property of a social country applies on US doesnt make it social does it because as a proportion to all other qualities that are supposed to exists, this one is just too small of an evidence that US is a communist country that you can neglect it (or explain it in another context or pattern of behaviour other than socialism) cant you? so its all a matter of proportions.so Iran definately is eager to dominate the south of Iraq. and in one peaceful world that makes Iran an imperialism. but since it really didnt yet -at least not officially-, the discribtion of imperialism is a distinguishing word for US and "israel", by controlling other people's land using military forces and political and commercial forces too. Having your army in over 190 countries is imperialism, occupying countries and sucking its natural resources and practicing horrible discrimination against the original inhibitors (well, you know which countries i am talking about here) and opening these countries to consume your products is imperialism, the extend of which US and "israel" have practiced these acts make Iran as innocent as a little fluffy while sheep if compared to them, so in that sence, Iran an imperialism? hmm.. i dont think so.now i wonder what automatic response i will get this time.

It's not an automatic response khalid, it's trying to find out how it is you make the statement you make in the face of what is known, at least to me. This is your chance to correct the record, explain how it is that your views are so far out of what the rest of the world believe to be the truth.

Iran wants much more than just Iraq, look around they want Lebanon too, and they are partners with Russia, and they want the world, so Iran wants the world too. Iran being a completely religiously motivated country must make you think that they want to fulfill those religious commandment to spread Islam around the world. Unlike you I see a lot of imperialism.

You keep talking about Israel being on other people land. Khalid some of that land must have been for the jews, no? All you have to do is dig a whole in the ground and some jewish artifact comes out. How can it be that non of this land is for them? When the Romans destroyed the Temple in the year 70, who were they fighting? Surly not Muslims as there were no Muslims at all, anywhere at the time. And discrimination, how can you with a straight face say that the arabs in Israel are discriminated, when arabs in arab countries face much greater discrimination. Like Shi'a in Saudi Arabia, the Sha'a in the old Iraq, Kurds in any Arab country. How can you really sit there and complain about the Arabs in Israel. And did you see that 200,000 arabs had emigrated into Israel, please list the Arab countries that have allowed Arab emigration, not Jordan, not Syria, not Lebanon, Not Saudi, all these places put Arabs from the territories into refugee camps and let them rot. That is Horrible discrimination, not emigration with full citizenship.

And finally Khalid, please provide the list of natural resources that the US is stealing from anyone, and the list of Countries the US is stealing them from. We will have to put an end to that.

Well, you two guys (Khalid and Madtom) are having a wonderful time jabbing back and forth, aren't you? Face it guys, right doesn't always win and wrong doesn't always lose. One thing is certain, the winner is always the guy with the most and biggest guns. And, the winner writes the history that says the winner is right. The winner always affirms that he has God on his side. Right?

Dearest Khaled... I've seen ur comment on Eve's blog asking for mom Arabs (especially Lebanese) to visit your website and comment on it... So here I am... I'm a Palestinian, born in Lebanon... Hope that will do! I've been reading the comments on this post... I am really impressed in the way u are responding with facts and numbers to all these "unjustified" ramblings! Best of Luck Khaled

I alwys thought that we miss voices of locals here, hearing it from the mouths of people involved int he case themselves would certainly be refreshing. so i posted on one of the Arabic blogs asking people to join us here. and Beebee is the first visitor, welcome Beebee, hope to see you around more.

Madtom

Never mind me, say what you want and we will let the readers judge it:)good luck:)

[me] "Some quarters ought to be more intellectually honest and accept the consequences of their actions."

[Bruno] "I cheer every Israeli soldier exterminated by Hezbollah, for as long as this invasion persists."

Once again Bruno performs his spectacular circus act, in which, without body, a mental contortionist, he manages to double think his way out of an underwater barrel.

By being responsible for action, I had imagined a more reasonable state of mind, perhaps like mine, in which thoughts are unimpressed by hatred murder and mayhem.

Still, at least Bruno is now exposed for the warmonger he is - instead of trying to hide behind Khalid's peace placard and make out like a citizen it is now clear beyond doubt that Bruno is nothing but an antagonistic militant.

Madtom is making some sense, for once. Except I can't quite get why he is talking about Iranian imperialism when he could be discussing Saudi imperialism. Perhaps that's because Saudi imperialists are richer then other imperialists, and have managed to buy Madtom's blind eye where Iran has not.

It could be that I am just not aware of the issue? My mind spins and the first thing that come to mind is their funding of madrasas in the US and around the world? Maybe some links would help educate the un-informed.

Check out this recent article by Sy Hersh. Apparently Cheney/Bush Co. gave full approval to Israel's bombing campaign of Lebanon. According to Hersh it was seen as a trial run of a potential (or perhaps anticipated is more apt) U.S. attack on Iran.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact

Picking up on the imperialism theme discussed above, how would folks suggest that Iranians, Iraqis, and the Lebanese defend itself from U.S. (or U.S. backed) warfare, aggression, attacks, and certainly in the case of Iraq, imperialism -- but call it what you will.

Madtom’s response to the fact that he deems children killed by Israeli bombs guilty of aggression?

[madtom] “[bruno] bla bla bla..”

Yep, he’s a genuine Batista fascist.

[madtom] “Attacking Israel to stop the democratic process in Palestine territories, and the democratically elected parliament from signing an agreement with President Abbas recognizing Israel, and hopefully putting Hamas on a path to peace.”

A load of balls. The “democratic process” was dead the moment the Palestinians elected the wrong party. Israel and America strangled the newborn on birth. Yet you try and twist the situation around and interpret HEZBOLLAH as anti-democratic? You moron. Hamas won. Hezbollah has no problem with democracy in Palestine. OR in Lebanon, since Hezbollah represents the single largest constituency within Lebanese politics.

Really, try to inform yourself before you open your big yap and stick your foot in it.

And your comments on the benign immigration of Arabs into Israel is ludicrous. Let’s see all the dispossessed Palestinian property holders return and reclaim the land that they were ethnically cleansed from in 1948. Oh, wait, they can’t, because the Right of Return is denied to them by Israel, and because a great bloody big wall bars them from doing so.

Israel’s position is analogous to Serbia’s position re. Kosovo, if you want to really compare the strength of one historical claim to another. And we all know the US reaction when Serbia wanted to retake Kosovo. A little spot of hypocrisy before breakfast methinks?

The chairman of the left-wing Meretz-Yahad party, MK Yossi Beilin has called for the establishment of an investigative committee to look into the government’s handling of the war in Lebanon. Beilin said the committee should investigate whether the war was preventable as well as whether “Israel could have reached an agreement with Syria to preclude the Hizbulla threat, how the war deepened social gaps and led to the abandonment of the weaker segments of society, and why bomb shelters were not built in Arab communities.”

The Supreme Court of Israel [official website] on Sunday issued a 6-5 decision upholding the legality the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law [text], which limits the rights of Palestinians to live in Israel. The law, passed by the Knesset [official website] in 2002, allows only Palestinian women 25 years or older and men 35 years or older to join their families in Israel and eventually be eligible for full citizenship. In its opinion, the majority held that the law does not infringe upon the constitutional rights of Israelis, and if it does, that harm is "measured." The court's minority wrote that the law violates the Basic Law on Human Dignity and Liberty [text] by infringing on the right to family life [Jerusalem Post report].

The petitioners challenging the law say it impermissably interferes with their right to have a Palestinian family in Israel, while the Israeli government says the law exists to prevent terrorist attacks. Critics call the law racist, saying that it is motivated by a desire to maintain a Jewish majority of Israel's population. Israel's State Prosecutor said that the state has granted [only] 6,000 of the 22,000 family reunification applications received since a 1993 peace agreement between Palestine and Israel.

[Bruno] "I cheer every Israeli soldier exterminated by Hezbollah, for as long as this invasion persists."[pme] “Still, at least Bruno is now exposed for the warmonger he is - instead of trying to hide behind Khalid's peace placard and make out like a citizen it is now clear beyond doubt that Bruno is nothing but an antagonistic militant.”

I must admit, there always was a whiff of the troll-scent about and the last couple of posts by PME pretty much ran out of deodorant.

Khalid, our poster PME wouldn’t by any chance have the IP address: 203.129.141.134 , would (s)he? If that were the case it would explain much.

As I have stated before, forceful reaction to forceful assault is legitimate and justified. The same as Iraqi resistance to US invasion is just. I would have no problem with Israel killing Hezbollah in reaction to Hezbollah’s rocket attacks … except for the fact that they are killing a bunch of civilians instead. That’s what makes the Israeli reaction wrong, disproportionate and unjust.

I have never “hidden behind the antiwar banner”. War is wrong, yes … but war can only happen because of an aggressor. You seem to be of the opinion that the strongest should just take what they want and the weaker should just line up and get shot, without even trying to fight back. Some result “antiwar” is going to get you in those circumstances.

Madtom’s response to the fact that he deems children killed by Israeli bombs guilty of aggression?

I blamed Hizbollah, HIZBOLLAH, H I Z B O L L A Hthey are the guilty party, they killed these children, staged the event and then exaggerated the numbers. 5 unfortunate children turn into 37 in one pass thru Hizbollahs magic spin machine

"A load of balls. The “democratic process” was dead the moment the Palestinians elected the wrong party. Israel and America strangled the newborn on birth. Yet you try and twist the situation around and interpret HEZBOLLAH as anti-democratic?"

Damn Bruno read the news reports leading up to the beginning of the war. It's only a month old. Again more nothing from you, as I was clear Hizbollah refused peace with Israel, and most of all peace from Hams. They may participate in elections but they require war and hate towards Israel as a platform. Hams broke the rules when they campaigned on a platform of less corruption and better services, and then were willing to go as far as to recognize Israel. That is the only cause for this war. Such an event would have been the death of hizbollah, and a sever blow to their Iranian masters.

But anyway it all backfired on them big time. They played their hand early, and now we know just what weapons and tactics they are trained to use. Those will be the very same tactics the Iranians will have and use. So much Russian palming and back hand dealing have just gone down the drain. Just ask Hersh, that's what that report actually says.

Israel's State Prosecutor said that the state has granted [only] 6,000 of the 22,000 family reunification applications

And just how many have been approved for Saudi Arabia, or even Lebanon?

And it's there for all to see how the democratic process worked in Israel. The law was challenged. How many people that drought the suit have been arrested, jailed, tortured, or expelled from Israel. Bruno?

You know I for one would never agree to the law, I find it draconian. But I do not live in Israel with eh constant threat of terrorist bombs. Needless to say the law come after the 2000 intifadah, and is a law enacted during a war time situation, but even with all that the law had a one year sunset, and it has been extended a few times after that. There is no reason, outside of your paranoia, that once peace is achieved that it will be aloud to sunset, and a normal immigration policy will return.

Rosetta Ajaka had just renovated her two-story home before she and her family fled four days into the war. Ajaka's husband had been a cook for the Israeli occupation force that controlled southern Lebanon until 2000.

"Hezbollah said we were spies for Israel. We were too afraid. We left. But look at this, everything we had was gone," as she walked over smashed glass and pointed to the holes caused by rockets. A Hezbollah launcher still sat in the front garden.

[BRUNO] Madtom’s response to the fact that he deems children killed by Israeli bombs guilty of aggression?[madtom] “I blamed Hizbollah, HIZBOLLAH, H I Z B O L L A H they are the guilty party, they killed these children, staged the event and then exaggerated the numbers.”

Well, that’s odd, I recall reading that you said “Yes they are they are, they are as guilty as if they had pressed the button themselves.”

Seems pretty clear to me.

There is no way that one can logically pass the guilt onto another party for an action they had nothing to do with. I suggest you rethink your ideas. Imagine if Kennedy had bombed Cuba during the Missile Crisis and then I came along stating all the dead Cuban children were guilty of aggression. I mean, that’s just crazy-man logic.

Secondly, if you claim an event was ‘staged’ it might be advisable to provide a little more backup than your word and fresh air, which IMO amount to the same thing.

[madtom] “They [hezbollah] may participate in elections but they require war and hate towards Israel as a platform.”

In other words, you concede that you were wrong about Hezbollah being anti- democratic? Good. I sense some progress here.

As for the question of whether they are militant or not, well it is clear that they are. The same as Israel is a military state, based on the hate of their Arab neighbours as well as their own Arab citizens. In other words, your point is?

[Madtom] “But anyway it all backfired on them big time. They played their hand early, and now we know just what weapons and tactics they are trained to use. Those will be the very same tactics the Iranians will have and use. So much Russian palming and back hand dealing have just gone down the drain.”

Backfired? I’d call it a stunning victory, since outnumbered and outgunned, Hezbollah bloodied the nose of the supposedly “invincible” IDF and made them cry uncle. Funny to note that NOW the Israelis are willing to go through the prisoner exchange that Hezbollah wanted all along. Rather I would say that The US/Israeli tactics have been revealed as seriously lacking in effectiveness, and that Iran’s position, through the acknowledgement of this strength, has been enhanced. Not to mention that these tactics have now been exposed and that Iran knows exactly what to do in order to further immunise itself against US aggression.

[bruno] “Israel's State Prosecutor said that the state has granted [only] 6,000 of the 22,000 family reunification applications” [madtom] “And just how many have been approved for Saudi Arabia, or even Lebanon?”

Gee, that’s funny, I never knew that one HAD to “apply” to see one’s family in S.Arabia and Lebanon. This is news indeed! Pray, do point us to the (nonexistent) article that says people need permission to see their families in these countries, as opposed to the oppressive and restrictive Israeli state?

I’m not naming names for now. Let’s keep the IP anonymous. It could be I’m entirely mistaken and that my “troll sniffing apparatus” is blocked. However, if you are able to confirm that the IP matches, then I can say for sure if it is whom I think it is.

"In other words, you concede that you were wrong about Hezbollah being anti- democratic? Good. I sense some progress here."

Only in your twisted mind, 18 month, you see that just 18 month from the start of the Cedar revolution, 18 month from the start of a real democratic process, 18 months from the expulsion of Syrian troops. Hizbollah starts a war of aggression with it's neighbor. Twist , twist and more twisting does it require to see this as supporting democracy. Maybe theocracy which is the only thing the Iranian paymasters will accept. 18 month it must be a record.

Backfired?

Yes backfired big time, Israel destroyed almost all of Hizbollah big expensive long range missiles. all they were able to do is pop off lot of little highly Mobil short rang rockets. But all those years and millions in big expensive weapons destroyed on the ground, not even test fired. I think they got two off the ground, they rest laid waste. that and thousands of highly trained fighters.

And what did they get again? lets see, they were victorious in inviting 15000 heavily armed UN security forces, 15000 Lebanese troops (who knows, maybe they will grow a pair on the way), the total destruction of their own country. Oh wait, Syria and Tehran did not suffer a single hit, scratch that. Total destruction of their occupied territory. World wide attention to the danger of looking the other way. Yes there sure is a lot to celebrate here.

Gee, that’s funny, I never knew that one HAD to “apply” to see one’s family in S.Arabia and Lebanon.

A number of the news services (I believe AP and Reuters included) first reported that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon. The stories shifted over the hours to speak of at the border and then by the next day the story had changed and the Israeli soldiers were reported to be "kidnapped in Lebanon."

If this is the case, then Israeli troops made an incursion into Lebanon, were killed and captured by Hizballah. So, let's see after Israel crossed into Lebanon it had to invade Lebanon to "defend itself."

This was all a concocted pretext for Israel to invade regardless of the cost.

Looking for a victory in all this is a bit sick Madtom.

Hundreds of people were killed, thousands of homes destroyed, infrastructure blown to bits. Mothers, old people, children were killed. Where is the victory in all that? Certainly not for Israel having committed war crimes.

Hizballah managed to fight the Israeli invasion. It was perhaps due to their temerity that Israel (fighting a proxy war for the U.S.) and the U.S. agreed to a ceasefire.

We have the Lebanese foreign minister on the record admitting that Hizbollah started this war. I am almost sure it's posted here, it's a real audio file. Would you like me to look for it and repost down here?

So having established as fact who started it, who are you going to blame for that list you posted?

And I see that nutcase leader of Hizbollah declaring victory, how sick is that?

"Bruno, i smelled that too, but i told myself: what the hell..." (Khalid).

Yup, what the hell, Bruno has posted here under so many names (as opposed to bylines) before, what does it matter. What does it matter that Bruno has to prop up weakened propaganda with false IPs, false names (probably including Skizm) and copy pastings from unsubstantiated articles written by sources with one clear agenda - to blame all of the world's evils on someone convenient, someone else, preferably, a Jew.

Do you think I am Jewish, is that what you have decided? Just because I have pointed out that all of the anti-Israeli arguments touted by Bruno's boys brigade are flawed - you allow commenters to insinuate I am something other then the sum of my words.

Think about it, you even asked madtom if he was Jewish, didn't you, just because he disagrees with you.

What if someone told you I was Protestant, or a Catholic, or had mothered you in another guise, would it matter?

Khalid, as an Iraqi, your main problem is far from religion. Your main problem is that Iraq is squished up between Iran and Saudi Arabia, who are both in competition with one another, and shock horror are tied up financially with the US in as far as arms and oil goes to an extent that Israel is incapable of (having no oil to trade in exchange). The hype about Israel being in cahoots with the US is largely just that - hype, largely disseminated by press release (instead of well researched reportage).

Have you read "House of Bush, House of Saud"? (by Craig Unger, you can probably get it from Amazon).

The unsung imperialist mantra; religion doesn't count where money can pay. Even Saddam knew this (although he didn't know everything much less afford it, which probably explains why he was hired and eventually fired by the CIA, and also goes some way to understanding Saddam's war with Iran).

The war in Iraq as it is now, apparently, with "American imperialists" is nothing more then a medieval exchange of debt for death.

That a war started by Hezbollah with Israel can be settled by a ceasefire agreement within weeks where as the war in Iraq and Afghanistan has been going on for years, is telling and what it is telling, is that war has everything to do with who holds the purse strings.

Frankly, as far as I can tell, neither Hezbollah nor Israel had the cash to carry on much longer without financial backing from the self same monopolists who prefer to divert funds into war in Iraq. Which basically dashes any claim that Israel is disproportionately wealthy, against the wall. Israel has enough wealth to defend itself against attack, and that is it, "squat" all, you might say. Likewise, Hezbollah is drip-fed just enough to make it into the media and distract everyone from the truth (truth being, Hezbollah is an Arabian war-merchants construct, all but well hidden behind layers of financial aid - yeah right, of course the Iran President gets off on the claim he can afford to fund Hezbollah all on his own. Ha bleep ha, in Ahmadinejad's dreams).

Madtom. Clearly, madtom, you have a vested interest in ignoring Saudi imperialism. Most "players" do.

That a war started by Hezbollah with Israel can be settled by a ceasefire agreement within weeks where as the war in Iraq and Afghanistan has been going on for years, is telling and what it is telling, is that war has everything to do with who holds the purse strings.PME

[pme] “Yup, what the hell, Bruno has posted here under so many names (as opposed to bylines) before, what does it matter. What does it matter that Bruno has to prop up weakened propaganda with false IPs, false names ”

Um, proof? None needed, if the troll PME says so. Slinking in the shadows, throwing balls of dung at people that you are too ashamed and incapable of standing up to in open debate. You are a pitiful creature.

[PME] “Do you think I am Jewish, is that what you have decided? […] Think about it, you even asked madtom if he was Jewish, didn't you, just because he disagrees with you.”

There, there. Have a hanky. Yes, it’s because yoooz a joooz that we’re all ‘bashing’ you. Your paranoid fantasies have come to life. Run, while there’s still time!

Seriously, I don’t give a toss whether or not you are a Jew. And that figment of your imagination about me asking Madtom whether he is Jewish is just that. I know for a fact he is a Cuban, probably a Batista. Your words – such as they are – are what are important. I think you know this about me by now.

[PME] “The hype about Israel being in cahoots with the US is largely just that - hype, largely disseminated by press release”

ROTFLMAO! I guess AIPAC is non-existent then? I guess Israel was not dropping US bombs from US planes onto Lebanon? Really, try something a little less ridiculous next time, wallah.

The rest of your post I can more-or –less agree with. Must be tough being an “antiwar activist” while supporting hard-core Zionism, eh? Seriously, how do you manage to get it all sorted out in your head?

Khalid –

If you are able to confirm that IP address it would help a lot. Even though by now I am sure of who we are dealing with here, based on language use and the ideas used.

[bruno] "Gee, that’s funny, I never knew that one HAD to “apply” to see one’s family in S.Arabia and Lebanon."[madtom] "Really ever try to enter KSA without a visa. I dare you."

A visa is a standard procedure in any country. It's nothing special. The law we are talking about is an exceptional, repressive circumstance. There's no comparison.

[madtom] " Israel destroyed almost all of Hizbollah big expensive long range missiles.[...] that and thousands of highly trained fighters.

Any actual reference to this or are these your hash pipe dreams yet again? Since the total Lebanese losses are around 1000, the bulk of which are civilians, it's a little hard to see where you get "thousands" of fighters killed from.

Lot's of discussion begun by an almost completely false piece of Hezbollah propaganda. Numbers of dead wildly overestimated, photographic evidence that many of those dead were likely not from the incident, evidence that the house was not hit with any munitions, evidence that Hezbollah staged the 'rescue' attempts and likely imported at least some dead in a refrigerated truck. This should tell any logical thinking person that none of the reports from the Arab press has any credibility. But, as I read recently, one of the mullahs declared logic to be blashemy in Islam.

This is not the only instance of proven staged 'atrocities', I have seen several others. Things like Hezbollah representatives ariving on the scene of a bombing carrying bags of unopened toys, unwrapping them and palcing them among the rubble for the 'press' to photograph. It is pointless in arguing when such facts are the basis, and pointless in engaging in 'cease fire' agreements with such people unless it serves to make you better prepared to punish them into abject submission when they provoke you once more. It is a sad reality that such conflicts are only truly resolved after much death, destruction, starvation and disease. Pick a side, it is coming sooner than we think. Choose wisely and demand that the 'peace effort' be thorough to ensure it be as quick and lasting as possible. In reality, those who wage such a war are the true humanitarians.

The rest of your post I can more-or –less agree with. Must be tough being an “antiwar activist” while supporting hard-core Zionism, eh? Seriously, how do you manage to get it all sorted out in your head?

Hard to believe, Bruno finally surrenders to reason. I hand it to you PME , the equivalent of a moon shot!

And that figment of your imagination about me asking Madtom whether he is Jewish

Bruno, it was Khalid who asked, and I don't know it looks to me that pme was responding to Khalid.

I guess AIPAC is non-existent then?

Well you think the OIL lobby is non existent, or more powerful that AIPAC? I agree with PME, it's a convenient myth, if there is any foreign power that wields power here in the US it's the mighty OIL LOBBY, they got everyone by the balls, left and right. Anyone even tries to change the CAFE standard and Saudi princes fly in to change their minds, 100 MPG hybrids get to much press, and you can count the Saudi planes flying in the air. But to keep the peace back home AIPAC makes the news.

The law we are talking about is an exceptional

Nothing exceptional? we were talking immigration, and in the Middle East immigration is exceptional, who was the last guy allowed to immigrate to Kuwait, KSA, or anywhere in the Middle East outside of Israel?

it's a little hard to see where you get "thousands" of fighters killed from.

It's of course an estimate from the different press reports coming out. I have seen estimates from 800 to 1200 on the high side, plus I, like you apparently, do not believe that the 1000 civilians were all in fact civilians, so add a couple of them and I come to "thousands". non of these members include Iranian Republican Guard, so add a few of them for good measure, and who is to say how many Syrian infiltrators were killed, I think 0 is too low a number.

Did you hear Prime Minister Fouad Siniora speech, I am searching for a transcript right now, but I heard a big chunk of it on C-Span just now. He totally rejected Hizbollah war, said that Hizbollah had to go as an armed group, and that there could be no more foreign powers or puppets that could destabilize Lebanon's democracy.

It's a victory my friends, this is a victory. An all out reject the Arab mind , bring me the west victory, he even goes as far right at the end to flatly reject the APU, he actually used the term "parallelism" unless that has some other definition that I don't know about Prime Minister Fouad Siniora has rejected the APU by name.

[anonymous] “This is not the only instance of proven staged 'atrocities', I have seen several others. Things like Hezbollah representatives ariving on the scene of a bombing carrying bags of unopened toys, unwrapping them and palcing them among the rubble for the 'press' to photograph.”

And I saw Santa driving a big black limousine just yesterday. He even gave me a hot stock tip: invest in knotted, waxed string from Borneo. It’s bound to be the new Tamagotchi. Quick, there’s no time to lose!

[bruno] “I guess AIPAC is non-existent then?[madtom] “Well you think the OIL lobby is non existent, or more powerful that AIPAC?”

Classic straw man argument. AIPAC wields great influence, as does the oil lobby. It’s not to say that their goals are opposed. Your interjection means nothing without context.[bruno] “The law we are talking about is an exceptional repressive circumstance”[madtom] “Nothing exceptional? we were talking immigration, and in the Middle East immigration is exceptional, who was the last guy allowed to immigrate to Kuwait, KSA, or anywhere in the Middle East outside of Israel?”

Slight difference, Madtom. In Israel’s case we are talking about (a) land that has been stolen from Arabs and (b) Arabs with Israeli citizenship being denied the right to have their families live in Israel. It’s hardly the same thing as being a complete foreigner and trying to live in Saudi Arabia. Since we are on the subject, the US itself is a notoriously difficult country to emigrate to. Look in the mirror sometime.

[bruno] “it's a little hard to see where you get "thousands" of fighters killed from. [madtom] “It's of course an estimate from the different press reports coming out. I have seen estimates from 800 to 1200 on the high side, plus I, like you apparently, do not believe that the 1000 civilians were all in fact civilians, so add a couple of them and I come to "thousands".”

Using the same logic I can say that I don’t believe all the Israelis killed were civilians and thus, in fact, only one or two civilians were killed by Hezbollah, and that in fact 99% of the Israelis killed were military. (Heck, its nice not being constrained by facts or reality. What freedom!)

Reality:

How Hezbollah Held Israel to a drawGavin Rabinowitz - AP

“ The army said it killed more than 530 guerrillas since the start of fighting July 12, although Hezbollah has acknowledged only 68 dead. Israel lost 118 troops.“I don't know of any army in the world who could just roll over Hezbollah in a matter of weeks,” said Robin Hughes, bureau chief of Jane's Defence Weekly, adding that Israel faced problems similar to those of coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.” //endHezbollah also claimed it killed more troops than Israel has admitted losing, btw.

In addition to winning in Lebanon, Iran has the upper hand both in Iraq and in the contest over whether it will be allowed to acquire nuclear weapons. If current trends continue, the Bush administration’s project in the Middle East will require the same sort of expedient we have just seen in the Israel–Lebanon conflict: a papering over of what is essentially a failure.

Dan Riehl

So, it turns out the lofty anti-terrorism rhetoric of Bush was little more than what some speech writer wrote to be read from a screen. . . . The man has looked over his head for much of his second term. Now, it's becoming more clear just how far. This will embolden the opposition in Iraq and could lead ultimately to the destruction of Israel.

Our war President has turned out to be a disgrace. At this point in world history, the Islamofascists look like they deserve to win. In fact, they might.

Paul Mirgenoff, Powerline Blog

Over at NRO's corner, John Podhoretz contends that this would mean the end of the Olmert government. I'm tempted to suggest that our government, having seemingly lost its will to oppose (or even to let others oppose) our deadliest enemies, deserves the same fate.

Kofi Annan’s wide grin, as he stood side-by-side with Secretary Rice on Friday, said it all. He won. But America and freedom’s cause lost.

Jeff Goldstein

Israel and the US have been defeated. Hizballah will grow emboldened. As will Iran.

Pamela "Atlas" Oshry, interviewer to John Bolton

Bush Administration Betrays Israel and America

Daily Pundit - in a post recommended by Instapundit: "Read the whole thing, especially if you work in the White House."

Bush's proud words of five years ago stand revealed as hollow and meaningless. What happened?

What happened was one of the biggest failures of leadership in Presidential history[…]

As for me? I've moved on. The first administration of the first century of the American Third Millennium will, in my estimation, be remembered as one of the biggest failures of that century.

I'm hoping we can get through the next two years without any major disasters, and then I'm looking to elect a real war leader to the White House - somebody with a warrior's temperament and a leader's skills. George Bush has neither. He is a dangerous failure, and America will be well rid of him.

Bill Kristol and Charles Krauthammer both said this weekend on Fox that Hezbollah won and Iran has been strengthened. //end

The context here is influence in the region. You know that the OIL Lobby signed off on the Iraq war and the Afghan war, not AIPAC

(a) land that has been stolen from Arabs

We will just have to disagree on that, I don't see anyone as having stolen any land, just reclaimed what was theirs to begin with.

The families in question, are new families, the law restricts Israeli Arabs from immigrating to form new families. and as you can see there are exception, 6000 have been allowed. In KSA it is illegal to marry anyone from the outside, and much less to allow your partner to immigrate in to the country. Israel has allowed 200,000such immigrants in it's short history. Who are the racists again? Not the Israelis

Using the same logic I can say that I don’t believe all the Israelis killed were civilians

Your making up your own logic there, you can verify the status of any Israeli killed. You already admitted that not all the 1000 Lebanese were in fact civilians. Israeli soldiers were uniforms, and form a regular army units, unlike Hizbollah which form irregular formation do not wear uniforms, so as to blend in and be counted as civilian casualtiesWhen was the last time reality ever crept into your conversations?

Hizbollah held to a draw because the world came to their rescue. They still sustained the losses I mention before, and they were not able to stop the Israeli advance. Israel moved at will within Hizbollah's territory.Not sure how you characterize that as a draw.

You might want to see what THESE people have to say about the matter:

Maybe those people did not hear the speech by Prime Minister Fouad Siniora. I will give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

[bruno] “Your interjection means nothing without context.”[madtom] “The context here is influence in the region. You know that the OIL Lobby signed off on the Iraq war and the Afghan war, not AIPAC”

That – even if I agreed with you - STILL doesn’t prove that the Israel lobby is powerless or that US and Israeli policy in the ME is not intertwined. Fact is, if you are able to demonstrate factually that the “oil lobby” wanted the Afghan / Iraqi wars and that AIPAC did not … THEN I’ll concede your point. But the truth is that the two lobbies ARE LARGELY CONCORDANT when it comes to foreign policy in the ME.

[bruno] (a) land that has been stolen from Arabs [madtom] “We will just have to disagree on that, I don't see anyone as having stolen any land, just reclaimed what was theirs to begin with.”

Shoot, well OK then. In that case the South American Indios would be justified in killing and/or chasing out all the blacks, whites and mestizos in Latin America in order to reclaim “what was theirs”.

Nevermind that the Israeli / Jewish presence in what is now Israel was negligible for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Nevermind that the Jews destroyed a vibrant Palestinian culture in order to dispossess them. Facts are facts.

If “Madtom logic” applies, then I’m gonna head over to Germany and ice some Turks, since they are squatting on land that I’m sure I had some sort of ancestors on a few hundred years ago. Or hey, I’ll become a Christian and lead a Crusade in order to reclaim the Holy Land, since it was Christian terrirory at one point in history.

[madtom] “The families in question, are new families, the law restricts Israeli Arabs from immigrating to form new families. and as you can see there are exception, 6000 have been allowed.”

Terribly sorry, chum, but you have completely misread the article. I repeat for your special benefit:

“The law, passed by the Knesset [official website] in 2002, allows only Palestinian women 25 years or older and men 35 years or older TO JOIN THEIR FAMILIES IN ISRAEL and eventually be eligible for full citizenship.”

In other words, the Arabs in question LIVE in Israel already and ARE ISRAELI CITIZENS. No new families. Just existing families.

[madtom] “You already admitted that not all the 1000 Lebanese were in fact civilians. Israeli soldiers were uniforms, and form a regular army units, unlike Hizbollah which form irregular formation do not wear uniforms, so as to blend in and be counted as civilian casualties”

Sure, but how many of were Hezbollah? You don’t know. I don’t know. Yet you try to suck statistics from your thumb.

And the fact of the matter is, you are again wrong on the matter of Hezbollah wearing uniforms. Their fighters DO WEAR UNIFORMS. It’s a fact.

SRIFA, Lebanon — When duty calls many Hezbollah members, including school teachers, give up every thing, DON THEIR MILITARY UNIFORMS and pick up their Kalashnikovs to defend their country. […] Hussein pulls a laminated card from his pocket. On it are the names of his fighters and their positions, along with corresponding code numbers and code names.[…]In their fashion choices, mild manners, and neatly trimmed beards, Abu Mohammad and Hussein shift seamlessly from civilian garb to soldiers' wear just like other fighters. "Our people are outfitted as soldiers, but when we are among civilians then we dress normally. When we are in the field, we dress as soldiers," says Hussein. "It's not reasonable to walk around in military uniforms and carry rifles when, for example, the Red Cross comes into town." //end excerpt

[madtom] “they were not able to stop the Israeli advance. Israel moved at will within Hizbollah's territory.”

Let’s talk facts, shall we?

The IDF was unable to recover the two soldiers it went to war for. It now has to exchange prisoners as Hezbollah wanted in the first place. It was unable to “destroy” Hezbollah. It was unable to even “degrade” Hezbollah. It was unable to hold territory it “took”. It was unable to stop Hezbollah from rocketing Israel, indeed, the missile attacks grew even fiercer the further into the conflict timeline we go. At the start of the fight, Hezbollah was launching 100 per day. The day before your supposed “victory” they launched 250. The IDF was unable to destroy the Hezbollah bunkers, and Hezbollah moved at will in the supposedly “secured” territory.

This is a classic guerrilla victory over a conventional army. This is why there is talk of the Olmert government falling and why Israelis are all pissed off at the results of the invasion. For a supposedly victorious nation, they do sound glum:

METULA - Thousands of Israelis are returning now to their homes near the Lebanese border. They are bitter and angry about what many call a futile war, and what others call an outright loss. "Israel lost big-time," said Ravit Ben-Simon, 25, glumly reopening her cellphone store on Wednesday in nearby Kiryat Shemona. "It wasn't a worthwhile war at all. It all started because of the kidnapped soldiers. Where are they now? Still kidnapped. It was all for nothing."

THAT VIEW WAS REFLECTED IN A NATIONAL POLL released Wednesday, showing that public support for the government of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has plummeted. The poll by the Maariv newspaper showed that Olmert's support had dropped from 78 percent on July 19, shortly after the war began, to 40 percent.[…]"Our government was unprepared. They didn't know what they were getting into," said Gital Lahyani, 36, as she reopened her cafe in Kiryat Shemona. "The situation is even worse now. Now the Lebanese, and the Syrians and the Iranians, perceive us as weak. It just set the ground for the next war." //end excerpt

But your still going to argue, classic bruno. I never said that AIPAC was powerless, I said that the oil lobby was more powerful, that it's influence including the ME issues extends far beyond to included energy policy and even fuel standards for cars. It's power and influence is unmatched by any other interest group even my own "the Cuban lobby" which has been co-opted by the oil lobby interest. AIPAC never clashed with us, nor was it ever rich enough to just buy us off, as apparently the oil lobby has been able to do. The moral of the story is that AIPAC is not the all powerfull lobby some people think it is.

then I’m gonna head over to Germany and ice some Turks, since they are squatting on land that I’m sure I had some sort of ancestors on a few hundred years ago.

Well it's good to see that your not going to argue that there was never a Jewish presents on the land, a presents that lasted right up to the partition. About your retaking your ancestral home land, all I have to say is, "you got a UN mandate for that adventure"?

Now if you could prove to the UN that the land was lawless, that your people there were being discriminated and that the best solution was to create a state on the land so that all it's inhabitants could coexist equally, then maybe you would have a case. Start you letter writing campaign. But you may need to get in line.

“The law, passed by the Knesset [official website] in 2002, allows only Palestinian women 25 years or older and men 35 years or older TO JOIN THEIR FAMILIES IN ISRAEL and eventually be eligible for full citizenship.”

bruno the master of half truths, here is the whole thing.

On July 31, 2003 Israel enacted the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Provision), 5763-2003, a one year amendment to Israel's Citizenship Law denying citizenship and Israeli residence to Palestinians who reside in the West Bank or Gaza Strip and who marry Israelis, though this rule is waived for any Palestinian "who identifies with the State of Israel and its goals, when he or a member of his family has taken concrete action to advance the security, economy or any other matter important to the State." Upon expiry the law was extended for six months in August 2004, and again for 4 months in February 2005.[14]

Although this law affected all Israelis, it disproportionately affected Israeli Arabs, and was considered by many to be highly discriminatory [15] [16]. On May 8, 2005, The Israeli ministerial committee for issues of legislation once again amended the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, to restrict citizenship and residence in Israel only to Palestinian men over the age of 35, and Palestinian women over the age of 25. The new bill was formulated in accordance with Shin Bet statistics showing that involvement in terror attacks declines with age. This newest amendment, in practice, removes restrictions from half of the Palestinian population requesting legal status through marriage in Israel.

Your half truth don't stand up to scrutiny.

says Hussein. "It's not reasonable to walk around in military uniforms and carry rifles when, for example, the Red Cross comes into town."

You see they themselves admit to it, and you may want to see some of the picture of Hizbollah manning a anti aircraft gun all out of uniform, maybe they were at the cleaners when the war broke out?

No matter what they claim, they were caught out of uniform in this conflict, your article does add context though, now we know why when someone is killed the locals come out and claim that "Ali was not a fighter, he was the baker" sort of statement. There membership as we see from you post can be secret, "On it are the names of his fighters and their positions, along with corresponding code numbers and code names." whose membership is known only to the cell commanders and members.

Clearly that is why people claim that the dead are civilians.

I think after reading your post I will increase the % of dead that I consider fighters over civilians. I wish you would provide the link, who knows what else we might learn from reading the whole thing, without your edits.

It all becomes clearer. The U.S. goaded Israel into fighting a proxy war for the U.S. against Hezballa (with hopes no doubt of attacking Syria and Iran) -- and per usual with bushco policies -- the consequences are dire for all involved.

Some Israelis thought Bush was nuts particularly when the U.S. pressured Israel to attack Syria (and some in the peace movement protested being used as a proxy military to kill hundreds of Lebanese civilians), and they were right.

Sounds to me that the war isn't over. "Israel" is seeking revenge, Olmert and the Generals "noticed" that "Israel" have been beaten up really bad and their pride was badly spanked. And they are seeking revenge.Yesterday they excecuted a military operation inside Lebanon. And you will see others soon to, I bet, uner whatever reason they will come up with.We are not heading to peace and re-building, yet. Khalid*

Khalid for once we agree, well almost, I see Hizbollah as trying to save itself on the ground and they are rearming, Iran sees it's failure, it wanted this war to last longer to move it's nuclear file off the table. so I like you don't think it's over yet.

well Iran called for a sieze of fire since the beginning fo the war.anyways.

it sounds that my estimation (and yours) is more than a prediction of the future anymore, today two "Israeli" ministers are talking about a new "round", the minister of infra structure Bin Aliazar urged Tel aviv to get ready for a new round. and the minister of environment Azra also talked about continuing military operations "to stop smuggling weapons from Syria". hmmm.someone has got a black eye and needs to revenge!

And that ego of yours that assumes everything has to do with you is tiresome, Bruno. The original comment was addressed to someone else, but seeing as you seem to forget the moment you poke your nose into someone else's conversation that the alphabet was in use for many centuries before you learned to use it, I doubt you will ever come to terms with the idea that people actually visit this blog because it is Khalid's blog and not yours.

"Hard to believe, Bruno finally surrenders to reason. I hand it to you PME , the equivalent of a moon shot!" (Madtom).

Thanks Madtom. I'm more of a realistic person then a modest person so I may as well note here that it isn't exactly a moonshot as Bruno has lost most debates with me on this blog except when he starts namecalling. I am not a namecaller so Bruno usually "wins" his impromptu namecalling competitions in much the same way Hezbollah are currently declaring their "win". I can almost hear Bruno thinking in his head when he reads this "I won because I am an asshole, yay me". So congratulations for winning your asshole competition Bruno, yes I agree, you are the biggest bullshit artist that ever smite the sphere. Wow, do you think you can settle down and be logical now? That way we can talk reasonably about where did Hezbollah get all the money it is promising to pay every single Lebanese citizen whose apartment was destroyed.

Hezbollah is promising $US12,000 each to Lebanese residents in a new Hezbollah development where hundreds of Lebanese apartments have been artfully demolished for free at another countries expense and will be rebuilt "better then before", it seems, without the Lebanese government having to pay a cent. $US12,000 - enough apparently to rent a new home, in Lebanon, and buy furniture, in Lebanon, while Hezbollah, with more money, rebuilds all of the original bombed Lebanese homes.

Gosh. I wonder who could be the generous patron financing this new Hezbollah development. Who do you think it could be Bruno? I know you think most Arabs are poor and noble grassroots citizens living subsistence lives on goat curd and dates so it couldn't be them. That only really leaves two peoples left with all of the money Bruno, by your reckoning, and that would be Israel first as the gold tends to drop out of a Jews mouth everytime a Jew speaks, or else the US, because they are the only other capitalists in the world, by your reckoning. What a puzzle. Who did it. The wolf or the bunny?

Clue: compare American and Lebanese exchange rates. Today at this time, Monday, August 21, 2006, $100 US equals between 151,000 and 157,000 Lebanese pounds.

Who financed the war against Israel and who is financing the reconstruction of Lebanon?

One last thing bucko (Bruno in this case), I was raised secular and never converted to a more pious state. So you can take back your hanky content in the knowledge that you needn't accidentally have to worry about putting your thumb in Jewish snot. Now ask yourself - does it matter whose snot it is? Nope, it doesn't, does it, unless you can trade it on e-bay it really has no bearing on anything.

Khalid, are you sure that "someone" has a black eye or did someone just accidentally rub his purple finger in his face outside the ballot booth? Another thing I was wondering, what do you think about those pictures of abducted detainees with black bags over there heads? It might just be a way of keeping the election process confidential. (Joke, feeble. To raise your spirits. You know what a good thing optimism is).

I am surprised. I didn't think thuggery was something you were interested in.

Well ok, Bruno won the namecalling competition and Khalid wins the fist fight.

Calling Hollywood Jews in control of all Oscars; please award the Palestinian aggression nominations to Khalid and Bruno for disproportionate brutality. I will be content sharing the nobel prize for reason with Madtom, for his outstanding performance as an ordinary man.

[madtom] “I never said that AIPAC was powerless, I said that the oil lobby was more powerful”

The point that you have tried so hard to ignore is, of course, that AIPAC DOES have significant clout within US politics and that your mentioning of the oil lobby is a red herring of note, since their stances on this conflict are mostly the same.

[madtom] “Well it's good to see that your not going to argue that there was never a Jewish presents on the land, a presents that lasted right up to the partition. About your retaking your ancestral home land, all I have to say is, "you got a UN mandate for that adventure"?”

In other words, the Israelis were right in ethnically cleansing Palestine. The Serbs were right in ethnically cleansing Kosovo. The Hutus were right in massacring the Tutsis. The Germans were right in liquidating the Jews.

Good to know where you stand on this.

As for “UN mandate” … that’s a laugh. Israel has ignored any UN resolution it didn’t like.

[Madtom] “bruno the master of half truths, here is the whole thing.”

“On July 31, 2003 Israel enacted the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Provision), 5763-2003, a one year amendment to Israel's Citizenship Law DENYING CITIZENSHIP AND ISRAELI RESIDENCE TO PALESTINIANS WHO RESIDE IN THE WEST BANK OR GAZA STRIP AND WHO MARRY ISRAELIS […]The Israeli ministerial committee for issues of legislation once again amended the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, TO RESTRICT CITIZENSHIP AND RESIDENCE IN ISRAEL only to Palestinian men over the age of 35, and Palestinian women over the age of 25.”

Thanks, Madtom, master of idiocy, for posting an excerpt which *reinforces* my original statement. Did you actually read this before posting?

[madtom] “No matter what they claim, they were caught out of uniform in this conflict, your article does add context though, now we know why when someone is killed the locals come out and claim that "Ali was not a fighter, he was the baker" sort of statement.”

Sadly, you misunderstand the rules of war. If frickin’ *General Zinni* is out of uniform and at home HE IS A CIVILIAN. Listen, you think whatever you want. Fact is, Hezbollah fighters use uniforms when fighting, and they do not mix their political and fighting wings. If you think that Israel hitting a school or hospital is OK simply because Hezbollah's political wing sponsored or ran the place, then think again. Your arguments merely reveal your moral bankruptcy.

[pme] “And that ego of yours that assumes everything has to do with you is tiresome, Bruno. […] The original comment was addressed to someone else”

Really? Why don’t you post the excerpt where you name the person it was directed to? All I see is “Bruno, Bruno, Bruno”. Let’s see, you wrote my name – count it – TEN times in your 9:49 post - a relatively brief post. It really seems that you have a bit of an obsession with me. You dedicated your entire post to me and the *awful* way I sling insults right back at you.

I’m proud to be grouped together with Khalid. He’s an honest and straightforward guy, and so is the rest of his family.

They don’t resort to pathetic jack-in-the-box tricks like certain deluded commenters that have nothing to say but need to say something - anything - anyway, preferably under an alias so that their "other" relationships remain undamaged.

[pme] “I will be content sharing the nobel prize for reason with Madtom, for his outstanding performance as an ordinary man.”

You are the one that ignores the facts that AIPAC is not the all powerful lobby that it is portrayed to be. It competes with hundreds, if not thousands of other lobbies for attention. I mentioned the Cuban lobby because the oil lobby has managed to step right over us and drill oil wells in Cuban gulf waters, and has apparently paid off the Cuban lobby for the access, which mind you is in violation of the embargo. but the oil Lobby, stepped in and squashed all opposition. You can't even get the issue into the papers.

So if there is any all powerful lobby in the US it's the Oil Lobby. To bad the people of the ME don't have control of their government, because if they did they would discover that they would wield an amount of power inside the US that is unprecedented. But unfortunately for them they continue to believe the piles fed to them by people like yourself.

In other words, the Israelis were right in ethnically cleansing Palestine.

Talk about red hearings. Bruno did you stop beating your wife yet?

Palestine was ethnically cleansed by five Arab armies that invaded Israel and told the Arab inhabitants to flee the territory and join the fight or wait out the war in refugee camp.

Thanks, Madtom, master of idiocy, for posting an excerpt which *reinforces* my original statement.

Only your selective editing supports your statements as I showed by posting the entire thing. I could not dot he same, edit and emphasize those portions that prove my point about your half truths. But I have more respect for the reading public that you, and am satisfied that they can read the facts and come to their own conclusions. Apparently you have a very low regard for the public that reads here and Khalid in particular to post such nonsense to his blog.

Hezbollah fighters use uniforms when fighting, and they do not mix their political and fighting wings.

Yes, I agree that in your mind this is clear, but to the rest of us it is not so clear at all. We have seen pictures of fighters manning weapons out of uniform, and we know that major facilities like hospitals were void of doctors and patients. hospitals in appearance only. They were in fact fronts for Hizbollah military command and control disguised to look like a hospital. Terrorist to the core.

I can't believe Raed is already identifying himself as and American, and a good American at that. He just got here! That must be the fastest assimilation in history. I think Raed deserves a prize or something, or at least a mention in that book of worlds records.

At least I can tell Khalid, "I told you so"

And about making the US a better place. Yeah it would be nice to ignore the fact that Arab terrorist have just been about blowing planes out of the sky, or that on some British flights, passengers have refused to fly at all with an "asian" on board. Needles to say people were scared of the Arabic script on your shirt. Of course you picked that shirt on purpose to cause a scene.

Anyway we are working hard to make America a safer place for our Arab friends and citizens alike, by fighting the terrorist and all those that support their actions. A victory in the WoT will bring you, Raed, and the rest of your community more freedom and security than any PC campaign can ever achieve.

We can only hope that you will start working with us, and not against us, towards a victory against terrorist.

Help us and help yourself to achieve goals that are in all our best interest. Support freedom and liberty for all peoples not just those privileged enough to immigrate here.

Hey everybody,I am a jackass. I love replying to myself 8 or 9 times in a row. I am going to kill myself soon and do it live on my webcam. My hobbies include defending fascism and imperialism, especially badgering and bullying those who are directly affected by such actions. I do not find this behavior ironic in any way.

I have very little hope that Raed would read this. anyways if you wanted -had the courage- to talk to him email him to his email address, which you can find on his blog.

I utterly hate the hypocracy in your talk, you sound like a boring copy of a white house press release.Btw, just to remind you, you are posting your message to Raed here because his comment section was closed, and the reason behind that is because another fellow blogger was arrested in the states and was sentenced to spend...i dont know how much time in jail, only because of things that were written in his comment section, by some readers.freedom? MY A**freedom to annoy people, freedom to terrorize countries, freedom to abuse the UN, that is about all the freedom American government is providing these days. Oh besides freedom of killing Iraqis without being questioned about it, too.for god's sake you cant make a phone call and know that the CIA isn't listening to it, you cant send an email knowing that you have privacy, the Bush-y laws allow every kind of violations of civil rights and no one can do anything about it.Freedom?the only thign was missing in your last comment is the antional anthomy in the background. and wouldnt have made it any less dull.You, and alot of other Americans, need to wake up and start looking around you to understand that freedom hardly exists in the states anymore, if you dont want to litsen to me, litsen to the other half of the American poppulation, the sane ones.but again, we are not going to discuss that in my blog any further, if you have any issue with Raed, email it to him, please.

* US foreign policy of the current adminstration makes US a fat nasty bullying kid. US is occupying countries and making wide spread propoganda smearing those who resist it.

* US government does have access to all what you consider private communications between you and others. and when a case was filed against the govenrment in the court, Bush stoppped it and that is no big secret.

* Us main stream media, driven and supported by US government plants the idea of fear of others, creating the roots of discrimitations. Labeling countries and individuals as terrorists only to fool the public to not object the US imperialist foreign affairs.

* US terrible foreign policy is what made people go blow airplanes in the air there, crazy people? extremest people? maybe, but did any of those plan any such thing against swizerland for example? of course not! makes you wonder! someone will always attack US and UK and those who participate in the game of imperialism. you have to understand, as a first step to reach world peace, that oppresing and terrorising other countries can never, ever turn out good. Ask some of your fellow Americans in the anti war campaigns who realise this fact, and let them explain it to you. Justice is the one and only way to have peace, the equal treatment for Palestinians and "Israelis", forcing "Israel" to implement ALL the tenths of UN resoutions that guarantee the rights of Palestinian people. stoping the Biased stands and the biased media.pulling out of Iraq and other occupied countries and not going on a wild horse with a cowboy hat to invade any new ones, stoping the support of dictators in the Arab world, etc etc. How much more hate should be planted in the world to believe that its enough? it IS enough.

* Yes, Raed stopped his comments section because a blogger living inside the states was arrested and is now in jail, because of comments on his blog, made by other people.

* Yes, there are American people, white Americans living inside the states, that are afraid to visit our blogs or email us because of fear of the FBI. with time and to protect US, more and more of American civil rights and sometimes human rights and many times privacy will be violated, and this will get only worse with time, only more checkign in airpost, more security measurments everywhere, more annoyment fromt eh FBI and CIA, and will only keep getting worse, because of the screwed minds that think that this way they can secure US against attacks, and this is completely impossible i promise you, because simply its the wrong way to do it, you have to stop the acts that lead people to be so angry that they are willing to let go of their lives and dedicate it to make US people in constant fear so they start acting and gettign involved in plitics and learning what their governemnts are doing for other countries and pressuring their government to stop the attacks on other people's countries, can you see the circle of violence? look at the most extremest enemy of the states, Al qaeda and you will find that bin laden speaches have repeaditly over and over and over repeated the fact that people inside the states will not taste peace until people in Palestine and Iraq and Afghanistan do. and you will find that he offered many times a truce if US pulled its troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan and stopped terror policy against Arab and Muslim countries. I am afraid that i have to tell you that i totally, completely agree with Bin Laden because he is just damn right in this point where he says that American people's security and safety is completely related to the security and safety of other nations that US government and military terrorise, and he makes sence, alot of sence, more than the so called war on terror. litsen to bin ladin talking and you can think of him as a peace maker compared to Bush, seriosuly, specially the part when he said " Bush is saying that he managed to moved the battle outside US land, and we are saying that we dont want to fight you, neither inside nor outside US land if you pull out your troops from Iraq and Afghanistan ..." that is more or less the meaning of what he said and then he dared Bush to agree on the peace offer he made, and addressed the American public saying that Bush will never do that because he is driven by war mongers and weapons companies and companies that are making huge benifits from this war. and omg he was right.

So my point madtom is: yes, freedom and freedom of expression are detoriorating in US, and will continue to, in process of securing US against attacks, which will never work because US is treating the world in a such a freaking wrong way.

but this also not the topic. we will talk about it if you like in blogs that discuss American freedom or in this blog when it addresses that issue.thank you for understanding.

I understand that your comments to Raed are public, but you might have comments to Nikol Kidman that are public too, but this blog isnt a place to discuss them, too.

Who financed the war against Israel and who is financing the reconstruction of Lebanon?

I heard today that Iran had passed a tax on workers that is automatically deducted from their salaries to pay Hizbollah to pass out reconstruction money.

And today on a French news service I watch on public TV they showed the story of a guy who said that he lived in an apartment next door to a Hizbollah office building. Which was intact, he said "they missed them and got us" his building was ruble.

Then they showed as he filled out his paperwork and Hizbollah handed him $12,000 US in brand new hundred dollar bills, cold hard cash. They went on to say that Hizbollah would pay 15,000 people this amount.

and, it really doesnt say much about your selfesteam if you think that your emails are spam. email him for God's sake, he recieves thousands of emails i am sure he wouldnt mind one more. spam his inbox better than spamming this comment section at least.

Oh and, Raed is a permenant resident that has a green card, and married to an American citizen, and living in the US since more than a year and working there, spending his time with peace activists and US congress members and US press and media. in his active work in US i am assuring you that he has been to more states and cities in the US than alot fo Americans have been to, and worked with people living in these states on daily bases through his work with NGOs and activists, he was hence interviewd over and over and over by the most important US media corporations, CNN alone had him couple of times, not to mention other tenths of TVs, Radio stations and newspapers. shouldnt be really that surprisingly shocking that he is talking about being a good citizen at all. after all, Palestinians, and now Iraqis too,( and who knows who else in the future) having an occupied country and having to leave it, gained the ability to adabt quickly in various environments. Maybe that's one good thing we shoudl thank US foreign policy makers for.

Us main stream media, driven and supported by US government plants the idea of fear of others, creating the roots of discrimitations.

Khalid, terrorist plotting to blow up people plant that fear all on their own, no need for government help.And US media are driven by $$ not the government.

US terrible foreign policy is what made people go blow airplanes in the air there, crazy people? extremest people? maybe, but did any of those plan any such thing against swizerland for example?

Yes Khalid, very mush so, but not in Switzerland, in Thailand they kill peaceful Buddhist. I just posted a link to a post by Yon, called "Jihad" which completely destroyed the myth that they only attack because of US policy, as a fact they attack mostly Muslims, and people so far removed from any link whatsoever to US policy that it just destroys that myth. link

Yes, Raed stopped his comments section because a blogger living inside the states was arrested and is now in jail, because of comments on his blog, made by other people.

I wish you had the details, because it must have been something very special. I need to see the facts before I will even believe it possible. Surly nothing Raed would have to worry about.

Talk on the blogs is that Raed cloed his comments so that US immigration would not see who is friends are...but that was just talk.

Yes, there are American people, white Americans living inside the states, that are afraid to visit our blogs or email us because of fear of the FBI.

Really Khalid, how would you know what people that are afraid to e-mail you think?

will only keep getting worse, because of the screwed minds that think that this way they can secure US against attacks,

Khalid that is why we are over there, so we don't have to turn ourselves into the Soviat Union. It would not work anyhow. Buisness Khalid, buisness would not alow it because they could not make money that way.

Not to mention the "Bill of Rights" won't allow it either, did you hear, Bush's NSA program just got shot down in a federal court, not only did they say it was illegal, that could be fixed by the congress by passing a law that makes it legal, but they said it was unconstitutional, so no congress could fix it. Of course that's not the end of it, the administration will appeal to a higher court. we will wait and see. But much of what you think can happen here can not. Let's say the high court allows wire tapping for terrorist activity, it will restrict any information gained from the tap to only terrorist charges. So if they find out your not a terrorist, but you are cheating your taxes, the information will not be available to use against you in court. Some arrangement will be found to protect people under the First, Fourth, and I think Fourteenth amendments. They can not be just ignored

Then there is the fact that Bush is a lame duck, he cant run for president ever again. And there are all those "good Americans" like Raed out there that you want me to talk to. They vote. If it's like you say they will vote the bums out. I vote, but even I do not vote republican. never have never will. But that will make little difference tot he terrorist, or the fight against them. Wait and see.

because simply its the wrong way to do it, you have to stop the acts that lead people to be so angry that they are willing to let go of their lives and dedicate it to make US people in constant fear

But you have to believe that there is something we do that makes them act that way. Something which can be argued is not true. They attack people with no connection to us at all.

Al qaeda and you will find that bin laden speaches have repeaditly over and over and over repeated the fact that people inside the states will not taste peace until people in Palestine and Iraq and Afghanistan do

You forgot that he attacked us before we went to Iraq, he wanted us out of KSA, and he wants Spain back, and he wants to enslave all of you under his form of Islam. That is what he wants, and he will not stop just because we get out of Iraq.

I am afraid that i have to tell you that i totally, completely agree with Bin Laden because he is just damn right in this point where he says that American people's security and safety is completely related to the security and safety of other nations that US government and military terrorise, and he makes sence, alot of sence, more than the so called war on terror.

Khalid you going to get Raed arrested.

Bush is saying that he managed to moved the battle outside US land, and we are saying that we dont want to fight you, neither inside nor outside US land if you pull out your troops from Iraq and Afghanistan ..." that is more or less the meaning of what he said

But it is a lie Khalid, he is fighting the Chinese for god's sake, are the Chinese in Afghanistan, Iraq, or even Spain? Is Thailand? Indonesia?Khalid you promised you went to Syria on vacation, please tell me you did not drink the water, please....

I love being an utter utter asswipe at every given opportunity. I used to mimic Khalid and Najma and Emigre and probably many many others as well. I make a hobby out of trying to get people to fight because I am a Marxist Socialist who hates Jews and my other name is Bruno. Please email me all of your spams at Bruno's address.

"Arresting Iraqis by the occupation, and putting bags on their heads and humilating them, is for you something to joke about?" (Khalid).

I joke about being sent to the Ovens too. How come your world view has narrowed to the point where you only complain about the "Iraqi" jokes and not about the "Jew" jokes? I made more jokes about Jews in my last few posts then about Iraqis and yet it was the Iraqi joke you picked out.

You used to like a joke, any kind of a joke.

What can I think? Only that I suppose you weren't joking then, the three times you inferred punching someone on this blog. I had hoped you were joking, even though I thought it sad.

"Really? Why don’t you post the excerpt where you name the person it was directed to? All I see is "Bruno, Bruno, Bruno"." (Bruno).

Uh, it had the person's name right up the top of it after his quote. I'm not surprised all you see is "Bruno Bruno Bruno". Maybe if you put down the mirror?

"Sucks dealing with somebody who fights back, eh" (Bruno).

Are you telling me that you think it sucks that you keep losing all of your debates when I show up. Or are you telling me it sucks that Israel is defending itself.

"Duh … it doesn’t take rocket science to work out Iran supports Hezbollah." (Bruno).

"Duh". Now read what I actually wrote, which was a comment pointing out that Iran can't afford to fund Hezbollah all on it's own, and that you can buy a lot of Lebanese pounds with an American dollar. Hezbollah seems to have all of a sudden a lot of Lebanese pounds...

Think about it. If Hezbollah had a lot of extra money two weeks ago it would have spent it all on rocket launchers (all-but badly built ones). Which would have meant Hezbollah would have no money left to pay people to rent new apartments now, as it has allegedly been doing.

Either Hezbollah is drip fed money as Hezbollah needs money, by someone else who keeps the accounts, like maybe someone who used to be with the BCCI who is not Iranian, or Hezbollah has only offered one or two people money and is hoping rumour does the rest, or, Hezbollah has lately been paid "under the table" to accept something, like perhaps a ceasefire agreement (in which case the payment would probably be laundered through someplace, like probably the someone who used to be with the BCCI again). Now ask yourself who has been scurrying all over town trying to make a "roadmap" seem like it's leading someplace (clue – not the someone who used to be with the BCCI).

Madtom, ignore Bruno's silly mimic games. He always does it when he is getting close to the point where he gets somebody to either switch off their comments, or turn on moderation. It would be a shame to see that happen on another Jarrar blog just because Bruno thought he was being a rebel.

[madtom] “You are the one that ignores the facts that AIPAC is not the all powerful lobby that it is portrayed to be.”

God, you’re slow, aren’t you? The entire point is that US and Israeli policy is in lockstep and that AIPAC is one of the reasons for that. Quite simply bringing up the “oil lobby” is completely irrelevant unless you can demonstrate how it fits into the picture.

Bruno: I like carrots.Madtom: Yeah but what about them apples, huh, what about apples?

Just forget it.

[madtom] “Palestine was ethnically cleansed by five Arab armies that invaded Israel and told the Arab inhabitants to flee the territory and join the fight or wait out the war in refugee camp.”

Unfortunately that’s not exactly true, is it? The truth is Arabs HAD to flee because of massacres and expulsions such as at Lydda, Ramle and Qisarya. They had to flee because Israelis deliberately forced them out through ethnic cleansing actions like Operation Hiram in the Galilee.

[bruno] Hezbollah fighters use uniforms when fighting, and they do not mix their political and fighting wings.[madtom] “Yes, I agree that in your mind this is clear, but to the rest of us it is not so clear at all.”

Whatever. The facts are on the table and your opinion does not count a very great deal in the larger scheme of things.

[madtom] “I can't believe Raed is already identifying himself as and American, and a good American at that.”

Oh, boo hoo hoo. That’s not FAIR! Americans get to shoot and pillage their way through other countries, and God forbid if one of those newly “liberated” people doesn’t like having his land turned to a ruin and decides to emigrate to the US. Geez, mortal danger, everybody! Call McCarthy!

[madtom] “I heard today that Iran had passed a tax on workers that is automatically deducted from their salaries to pay Hizbollah to pass out reconstruction money. […] Those poor Iranian workers.”

I heard that the US regularly hands out billions in US taxpayers moneys to dictatorships such as Egypt and Jordan, and that Americans are still gullible enough to believe that they stand for “freedom n’ democracy”. I heard that the inhabitants of the American Paranoid Empire (A.P.E.) can’t understand the real reason why Arabs can’t stand them … even as America hands out American taxpayer’s money to Israel in order to subsidise American bombs used to kill Arabs. Those poor deluded Americans.

[madtom] “I am a jackass. I love replying to myself 8 or 9 times in a row. I am going to kill myself soon and do it live on my webcam.”

On the bin Laden issue – while I agree that essentially he is morally on the “right” side, his tactics and strategy completely degrade and render moot whatever moral advantage he might have. Killing thousands of innocent people is an act worthy of America, not a freedom fighter. While Al Qaeda restricted its attacks to military targets, such as US warships, I admit I felt a certain admiration for a network that had the balls to take on the US military mano-a-mano.

But exporting terror to the US – while I can feel the righteous anger behind those actions – is a failed strategy that is simply going to reinforce the hand of the Neocons. There is simply no way that a network like AQ can cause enough damage to targets that matter in the US to have a chance of changing through force American policies. Iraq has already reaped the consequences of the backlash to 9-11. In other words, the Neocons will simply use further terror as justification for another escalation against ANOTHER geostrategic target. AQ actually HELPS the Neocons.

Hezbollah has the right idea: entrench yourself within your society, keep a very low profile, and fight a defensive war that saps the will of the invader. The Hezbollah model is 10 times more effective that Al Qaeda in showing up the limits of the hegemony. The Iraqi Resistance, if it can avoid getting suckered into a sectarian war, will do far more – a thousand times more – to convince America it is safest behind its own borders than Al Qaeda ever could.

mad tom"Really Khalid, how would you know what people that are afraid to e-mail you think?"

Because they emailed and told me so, because they email and apologize for nto writting to me anymore because they are afraid.

"I am afraid that i have to tell you that i totally, completely agree with Bin Laden because he is just damn right in this point where he says that American people's security and safety is completely related to the security and safety of other nations that US government and military terrorise, and he makes sence, alot of sence, more than the so called war on terror.

Khalid you going to get Raed arrested."

see what i am talking about madtom? any talk against the US policy is for real a reason to get someone arrested nowadays, mr. Freedom of speach, and who said that agreeing with a ceratin thing that Bin ladin said is a bad thing? :) I agree with him on that point very much. although (replying to Bruno) i of course dont agree with massive killing of civillians. but lets think about it, they will continue to try to kill civillaisn, wether Qaeda or others, as long as the US foreign policy continues to work the same way it is now.

Alright madtom, just so you stop jumping around facts answer these two question with min number of words please:

If US didnt Support "Israel" blindly against Palestine, if US didnt invade Iraq and Afghanistan, if US doesnt play a bad role in supporting corrupted Arab leaders, would US have been much safer today or not?

second question: why do you think alqaeda attacks US, in your opinion?

PME

sorry i didnt read most of your comments so i really didnt see any joke before this, i read this and it caught my eye and replied to it.Still, I want to ask you to be more sensitive when discussing such issues, human suffering and oppressing people is never something funny.thanks.

Bruno,the trick is not about the size of damage that qeda can make inside US, its about the fear of damage, its like telling someone: if you dont go out of my house i will be after you and you will be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life, its the fear of damage where the effect of qaeda is. and I agree with you, killing civillians is definately not the right way to do anything, but i want to clear that all i wanted is to explain what qaeda depends on to make these attacks: the hate that US foreign policy plants. and that in qaeda eyes, they have to continue waht they do till they see US changing their policy, so wether we agree with qaeda or not is irrilivant really, what i reivant is only the fact that they will continue to try to make attacks as long as US continues its policy, and then i am suggesting the change of plicy to be more just in order to defuse the anger of those people and gie US people real peace and security.and yes i agree, the cycle of violence doesnt seem to stop, US screw the world, soem pissed off people in the world attack US, US uses that to screw the world even bad, and then people get more pissed off and plan bigger attacks, etc.

If US didnt Support "Israel" blindly against Palestine, if US didnt invade Iraq and Afghanistan, if US doesnt play a bad role in supporting corrupted Arab leaders, would US have been much safer today or not? `Khalid you can not disconnect the US from history, if the US had not done what it did post WWII we would be part of the Soviet Union today. Niet we and the world would be a darker place indeed. For one, I would have never have met you, and there would be no internet, and we would never be having this conversation across boarders and cultures. All illegal, like it was in Iraq before we took saddam out.

Oh an Khalid, I was just kidding about getting Raed arrested with your comment, that is impossible, but you may be arrested in Jordan. Declaring your support for OBL in Jordan is a crime. Please delete that very stupid comment.

second question: why do you think alqaeda attacks US, in your opinion?

To bring down the royal family of KSA and take it's place.Few enough words for you?

its about the fear of damage, its like telling someone: if you dont go out of my house i will be after you and you will be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life, its the fear of damage

You did drink the water. That is the terrorist tactic and it cant work with the US. We will just escalate our response, Americans will never respond to fear, we will kill anything that stands in our way, our freedom and our liberty. You people have it very wrong if you think Americans are pacifist. We do like peace and we try to talk it out first, and live and let live, but when someone just want to walk over us, we will fight to the last man, woman, and child that can carry a weapon.

[pme] “I'm not surprised all you see is "Bruno Bruno Bruno". Maybe if you put down the mirror?”

Hey, you only mentioned me NINE times this post. You’re getting better. Your obsession with me is 10% down from the 9:49 post.

"Sucks dealing with somebody who fights back, eh" (Bruno).

[pme] Are you telling me that you think it sucks that you keep losing all of your debates when I show up. Or are you telling me it sucks that Israel is defending itself.”

Losing debates? Against YOU ? Please, don’t flatter yourself.

But I do see that you are rather glib about the Lebanese deaths caused by Israel “defending itself”. Suddenly you are condoning war and destruction. What happened to the “antiwar at every cost” mantra you were spewing a while back?

Oh, wait, I understand.

You’re a hypocrite.

[pme] “Think about it. If Hezbollah had a lot of extra money two weeks ago it would have spent it all on rocket launchers”

The truth is, though, that Hezbollah really IS a populist party. Whatever can be said about their war tactics, the fact remains that they HAVE funded schools, hospitals and services. They are well aware that the real power of a guerrilla movement is derived from the people – the ‘sea’ in which the guerrilla fish swim – and they have played their cards accordingly.

It only makes sense for Iran to back them, since Lebanese Shia (and thanks to this war, Lebanese in general) are now aware of the benefits of working with a more powerful entity like Iran. Since the aims of Hezbollah and Iran mostly coincide, it’s the most natural thing in the world for them to work together.

[pme] “Now read what I actually wrote, which was a comment pointing out that Iran can't afford to fund Hezbollah all on it's own, and that you can buy a lot of Lebanese pounds with an American dollar.”

As a matter of fact, Iran is wallowing in dough ever since the oil price shot up to like 70$ a barrel.

But let’s forget this.

You’re insinuating that some sort of American connection is responsible for funding Hezbollah, somebody connected to the BCCI. I’m assuming that you have more to bring to the table than the usual vague dark hints that you are so famous for and that inevitably dissipate like farts on the wind. You’ll have to spell out a more convincing case for sceptics like me that don’t believe for a second that the CIA or the salafist BCCI connections would fund a party that is opposed to Israel and that is fundamentalist Shia in character.

[pme] “Madtom, ignore Bruno's silly mimic games.”

Looks like PME has just hit that time of the month again. It’s easy to spot the signs – over agitated commentary that fixates on one person, false accusations of troll posts and sweaty sensational rants ripe with innuendo and unfinished trains of thought.

Hmm. Now that I think of it … EVERY post by dear PME / she-of-a-thousand-names bears those signs. This could explain much.

[khalid] “what is relevant is only the fact that they will continue to try to make attacks as long as US continues its policy, and then i am suggesting the change of policy to be more just in order to defuse the anger of those people and give US people real peace and security.”

Look, that’s true. I agree with this.

The problem is that the people driving the policy in America don’t care about the damage AQ can do and in fact, welcome it in order to use it as an excuse to further their immoral deeds. Just look at the way the Bush administration threw up stumbling blocks in front of the 9-11 commission and the way they disbanded the unit (Alec Station) responsible for capturing bin Laden. They just don’t care. AQ attacks are a bonus for them.

AQ would be ever more effective if it directed its attentions to military targets on American client states. Unlike in Iraq, where the US can simply shoot anybody it suspects, if they try the same in Turkey or Germany, the native populace will tend to blame America for bringing the American war to their country. Remember, it is a lot easier to manipulate the Americans in their media saturated echo chamber than the people in other countries that already understand the real bottom line.Look at the backlash occurring in Afghanistan thanks to the US’ usual heavy-handed tactics.

If AQ wanted to be effective, it would direct its truck bombs at US military installations in supporting states. Not only is that a morally legitimate target, but it’s also way better than killing innocent American civilians in pointless exercises of brutality on the American homeland while alerting the supporting states to the downside of playing the doormat to US policy.

My point is that AQ is losing whatever moral legitimacy it may have gained due to the cause it stands for because of the tactics it chooses and the targets it picks.

[madtom] "Khalid you can not disconnect the US from history, if the US had not done what it did post WWII we would be part of the Soviet Union today. Niet we and the world would be a darker place indeed."

and in a parrallel universe somewhere ...

[madtom] "Khalid you can not disconnect the USSR from history, if the USSR had not done what it did post WWII we would be part of the United States today. Niet we and the world would be a darker place indeed."

Citing the status quo as a factual statement of a better "future" is flawed as an analysis since you actually have no idea of what the alternate history might have been. You are de facto excusing millions of people killed by the US and its policies as a success story simply because YOU YOURSELF are better off.

Take Vietnam for example, where the US spilled oceans of blood in order to "stop communism" ... and got its butt kicked ... and was proved wrong. There was no domino effect and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, Montagnards etc would have still been alive today.

Citing the status quo as a factual statement of a better "future" is flawed as an analysis since you actually have no idea of what the alternate history might have been.

But It's not some theoretical argument, Bruno, remember I'm Cuban and I have seen the difference with my own eye, and through the eyes of some of my closet relations. People are still paying a price, because not all could be saved, the cold war had many casualties, and it continues to kill people to this very day.It's not a play, or a book, or some research paper for distribution thru a journal. Go play alternating Universe game with someone else, for us it's not a game.

I love being an utter utter asswipe at every given opportunity. I used to mimic Khalid and Najma and Emigre and probably many many others as well. I make a hobby out of trying to get people to fight because I am a Marxist Socialist who hates Jews and my other name is Bruno. Please email me all of your spams at Bruno's address.

Thankyou."It was me genius. I am not Bruno, btw. OMFG get a life. And thanks for broadcasting my IP for all to see, I appreciate that little bit of terrorism to brighten my day. :]

Oh, and I would never dare to pretend to be someone else. How utterly sad. I cannot speak for Bruno of course, but there is only one SKiZM! I find it funny to hear whiny rants like that, coming from a bunch of Bill O'Reilly clones. Pathetic. On the count of 3, please for the love of everything that is sacred and holy, go kill yourselves! Honestly, just do it. 123....

[madtom] "But It's not some theoretical argument, Bruno, remember I'm Cuban and I have seen the difference with my own eye, and through the eyes of some of my closet relations."

So feel free to speak about Cuba, then. Fact is, the information we get from IRAQ, you know, the place we are discussing, is that it was better off even under a scumbag like Hussein than under the Americans. And really, if you think about it, how pathetic and sick is it not even being able to govern a country better than him?

That's only because you talk to a very limited selection of friend, mostly ex ba'ath shitbags who have had the tabled turned on them, who probably deserve worst for what they have done to the country of Iraq. There are people and places in Iraq who do have it much better. People working to move past your shitbag friends and to build and new modern Iraq, or at least a fair and peaceful one.

Does anyone think it is weird the way Bruno is trying to avoid, at all costs, that Hezbollah may be funded by US dollars and that Bruno seems to be trying to convince Khalid that Al Qaeda is a bad option and Hezbollah is a better option?

Remember, Al Qaeda is anti Saud imperialism as well as anti US imperialism. Al Qaeda was even anti-Saddam because of Saddam's imperialist style. Hezbollah however, have never made general overall statements against greed - unless they are blaming all of the greed on Jews.

Osama was a rich-kid who got the pip with his wealthy family. He went feral and started a cult - he certainly has caused harm but I wouldn't call him a nazi. Hezbollah on the other hand, reminds me of Germany's national socialist movement. And Bruno's distorted, violent and over emotive comments remind me of national socialist rallies.

Does Bruno make any effort to find out the truth? No, Bruno's primary concern is to make certain nobody else finds out what is happening. That is, that nobody finds out Bruno is responsible for most of the shit stirring in other names on this blog.

"Suddenly you are condoning war and destruction. What happened to the 'antiwar at every cost' mantra?" (Bruno).

Please find a quote where I support war and condone destruction, and then post it.

Please find and post a link to the part where you seem to think someone on this blog chanted "antiwar at every cost".

Please find contextual evidence to prove "sudden".

What I pointed out, un-suddenly, is that you regularly rant on about noble Iraqis defending themselves. What I pointed out was, that when Israelis defend themselves you are unwilling to acknowledge that armed Israelis are doing exactly the same thing you claimed armed Iraqis are doing.

Other observations;

1. You seem to be assuming that I am anti all war. You would be correct.

2. You seem to have an immature fixation with Jews and women.

3. You seem to spend a lot of time making up insulting remarks in reply to people who you can't equal in reason or with logic.

[PME] “Does anyone think it is weird […] that Bruno seems to be trying to convince Khalid that Al Qaeda is a bad option and Hezbollah is a better option?”

Fundamentally, I oppose both Hezbollah and Al Qaeda since they are essentially radical religious movements that are trying to push some sort of religious rule. As an atheist I find religious fundamentalism abhorrent, whether it is Muslim, Christian or whatever. I do however recognise that there are powerful motivations driving these groups, motivations that I sympathise with, these being primarily the effect of American imperialism on their peoples.

To me, Hezbollah’s integration with the Lebanese populace IS a far better approach than Al Qaeda’s decentralised, networked approach, since the interests of Hezbollah are transparent and they are accountable to the populace from which they come. Not only this, but by defeating the Israeli invasion, they have proved that due to this integrative approach, they possess far greater military capacity than AQ, who, let’s be honest, has not achieved a victory nearly as significant as Hezbollah’s. Hezbollah’s defence of their homeland has a FAR greater moral legitimacy that AQ’s random killing sprees.

[PME] “ Remember, Al Qaeda is anti Saud imperialism as well as anti US imperialism. Al Qaeda was even anti-Saddam because of Saddam's imperialist style. Hezbollah however, have never made general overall statements against greed - unless they are blaming all of the greed on Jews.”

Eeeh. AQ was anti Saddam because of his secular tendencies and his invasion of Kuwait. If he had been a radical salafi, AQ would have helped him out. AQ is anti-Saud because their brand of Wahhabism is not radical enough. No thanks, I’d take Hezbollah over AQ any day of the week.

[PME] “Does anyone think it is weird the way Bruno is trying to avoid, at all costs, that Hezbollah may be funded by US dollars […]Does Bruno make any effort to find out the truth?”

Actually Bruno does make an effort. I checked out the BCCI. Yes, it appeared to be a rotten money pool for every scumbag on the global circuit. There is also NO DEMONSTRABLE CONNECTION to Hezbollah whatsoever; in fact, the organization is not even mentioned. The people involved seem to be the British and Americans which used the BCCI to fund the Afghan mujahideen against the Russians, and the Pakistanis who laundered drug money through it. Again, you’ll have to come up with a more solid connection than the vapour which you have been using to make your argument with up to date. Americans funding Hezbollah against their darling Israel? Eh, I don’t think so, somehow.

[bruno] "Suddenly you are condoning war and destruction.”[PME] “Please find a quote where I support war and condone destruction, and then post it.”

Easy: [PME] “Or are you telling me it sucks that Israel is defending itself.”

The word “defending” has an implicit positive moral connotation to it. Given that you characterise the wholesale destruction of Lebanese infrastructure as “defence” you implicitly associate yourself with approving the action. If this is not the case, then you might want to SPELL IT OUT, since the Israeli reaction goes far beyond “self defence”.

[PME] “Please find and post a link to the part where you seem to think someone on this blog chanted "antiwar at every cost".”

Come now, my dear. I know very well who you are, and you know I know. You previously criticized statements by me approving of Iraqis defending themselves as pro-war and immoral. It seems that your thinking has shifted somewhat when Israel is involved, my little hard core Zionist – for – peace.

[PME] “You seem to have an immature fixation with Jews and women.”

You seem to have an immature fixation with ME.

[PME] “You seem to spend a lot of time making up insulting remarks in reply to people who you can't equal in reason or with logic.”

You seem to have an extremely flexible definition of logic and reason, if you think your posts display those qualities.

Your childish antics of accusing every poster you don’t agree with of being me either indicate an underdeveloped intellect for whom the concept of “proof” is unneeded or an overdeveloped persecution complex which would indicate an urgent need for specialized treatment. Simply - by considering the amount of posts I would have to post in order to be all the people you say I am – logic would dictate that either I am plugged 24/7 to my computer by a cable through my ear or you could possibly, maybe … be wrong.

When confronted with extreme illogic and trolling behavior, I admit that yes, I do take a certain satisfaction in pointing this fact out via rasping posts. After all, as you have said to me in the past, I do it so well.

Bruno you seem to have stated a contradiction, maybe you could help me straighten it out.

You said:

To me, Hezbollah’s integration with the Lebanese populace IS a far better approach than Al Qaeda’s decentralised, networked approach, since the interests of Hezbollah are transparent and they are accountable to the populace from which they come.

Then you said in part:

Given that you characterise the wholesale destruction of Lebanese infrastructure as “defence”

"Actually Bruno does make an effort. I checked out the BCCI. Yes, it appeared to be a rotten money pool for every scumbag on the global circuit. There is also NO DEMONSTRABLE CONNECTION to Hezbollah" (Bruno).

Nobody ever stated there was a demonstrable connection between the BCCI and Hezbollah Bruno. The fact of the matter is that you are trying to obscure the issue by implying that other people have said things which they have not.

What I said was, is that money could be laundered through people who had experience laundering money and that those people might most likely be people who had been involved with the BCCI.

The BCCI, actually, was supposed to have been closed down several years ago. It was found to still be operating illegally in 2002 under another guise. It was supposed to have been disbanded a second time and not much has been published about it since.

You seem to be implying the BCCI is still operating? Interesting.

In any case, laundering is all about removing "demonstrable evidence", which is precisely what the BCCI did, very effectively, and why it was supposed to be taken out of action in the first place.

The whole point I made about Israel defending itself, which seems to have escaped you, was to point out your hypocracy - ie that you claim Iraqis have the right to violently defend themselves yet you cannot grant the same right to Israelis.

Incidentally, another fantastic demonstration of your hypocracy is that while you are happy to insinuate Israel accepts US money you seem to be hoping I won't bring up how the BCCI was used to transfer money from the Bush dynasty to the Saudi dynasty and was connected to transactions that ultimately had to do with arming Al Qaeda (Al Qaeda were supposed to fight the Soviets, at the time, but ended up basically just fighting anything Al Qaeda deems corrupt, including Osama's own family).

I still don't see those quotes I requested in response to your allegations, only more implied nonsense. Although I can see that you have toned down your ridiculous and offensive style. Good boy. Keep working on being a rational person and one day the war will end.

As far as addressing my comments to you instead of to Skizm or anyone "else" commenting here, I really cannot be bothered playing the silly little Bruno puppet game. If you were a five year old I would gladly talk to Mr Nobody, or set an invisible place at the table for him, but at your age it's beyond a joke.

[pme] “Nobody ever stated there was a demonstrable connection between the BCCI and Hezbollah Bruno.”

In other words, your entire spiel on the BCCI was to make a point that money COULD possibly be laundered in a similar way for Hezbollah and therefore, based on this rock-solid evidence, clearly Americans DID do so. In other words, more conspiracy theory stuff unsubstantiated by any real-world evidence. Got it.

[pme] “The whole point I made about Israel defending itself, which seems to have escaped you, was to point out your hypocracy [sic] - ie that you claim Iraqis have the right to violently defend themselves yet you cannot grant the same right to Israelis.”

Again, for the benefit of those that lack the capacity to understand … the Americans are IN IRAQ. THEY INVADED. Therefore, yes, the Iraqis have a right to resist. The Israelis are IN LEBANON. THEY INVADED. The LEBANESE are resisting. I would grant that Israel had a right to recover its soldiers. However, the right to recover its soldiers does not logically extend to the wholesale carpet-bombing of the entire country.

(By the way, if we accept this line of reasoning … then Hezbollah can be interpreted to be “defending” in the Israeli manner as well, since Israel has kidnapped thousands of Arabs and Lebanese and has held them without trial in its gulags. Indeed, the Hezbollah operation was launched precisely in order to recover its citizens via a prisoner swap.)

[pme] “you seem to be hoping I won't bring up how the BCCI was used to transfer money from the Bush dynasty to the Saudi dynasty and was connected to transactions that ultimately had to do with arming Al Qaeda”

You gotta be kidding! Since when have I been an apologist for the dumbass Bushes and the nutty Saudis? Please, bring it up all you want. And, everybody who knows something knows that the roots of Al Qaeda can be traced to the American financing of the Afghan guerrillas.

[pme] “Although I can see that you have toned down your ridiculous and offensive style.”

I have? Must be losing my touch, if I can’t even offend ol’ PME anymore.

[bruno] To me, Hezbollah’s integration with the Lebanese populace IS a far better approach than Al Qaeda’s decentralised, networked approach, since the interests of Hezbollah are transparent and they are accountable to the populace from which they come.[bruno] Given that you characterise the wholesale destruction of Lebanese infrastructure as “defence”[madtom] You don't see a contradiction there?

Not really. First of all the context is RELATIVE. I’m comparing Al Qaeda, a network comprised of individuals not based or allied to any one particular country, to Hezbollah, a mostly Lebanese movement. Secondly, even IF Hezbollah were the actual army of Lebanon, it still would not excuse the Israeli bombardment of civilian areas and non-combatant targets.

Well actually bruno, it would seem that there was something to your transparency argument. Now the population is much more weary of any Hizbollah cross border actions. They returned to what was left of their homes to find out that Hizbollah was declaring "victory". But how may more of these "victories can they afford? It's turning out that Iran's payments aren't what they were advertised to be and many many people are being left to recover however they can. and with the Lebanese regulars crawling around, and building a presents people feel more threaten than ever. Now there is no security and best of all they have no privacy. Even Syria is feeling the pinch having their rights to cross the border unchallenged, challenged.

Hizbollahs hollow victory is quickly turning into a true nightmare, and Iran's ability to reinsert itself in Lebanon is waning. But not all is lost, they are now turning their backs on the Lebanese and trying to invite themselves to the table in Palestine. Let see if the Palestinians are willing to be fooled again.

[madtom] “Hizbollahs hollow victory is quickly turning into a true nightmare, and Iran's ability to reinsert itself in Lebanon is waning.”

Don’t fool yourself, MT. While admittedly the Lebanese and even Nasrallah are shocked at the amount of wholesale damage Israel did to their country, they don’t blame Hezbollah for it, they blame Israel. And they can see that the only people in the region that bothered to stick by them were the Iranians and maybe the Syrians.

I agree that Hezbollah will think twice next time before trying any more operations … but then, so will the Israelis. The myth of Israeli invincibility is shattered now. While Israel “won” the “war of the cities” there is no doubt at all that Hezbollah won the military battle. In fact, they dished out a royal hiding to the Israelis. So much for the elite paratroopers and invulnerable Merkava 4.

Both sides have realized that the other is not to be trifled with, but in reality Hezbollah has won the greater victory, since before the war pundits were expecting Israel to roll over them in a few days, and now it’s clear that Hezbollah went toe-to-toe with the biggest power in the ME and came out on top. This victory has given the Arabs a glimpse of what they can do if they are organized and committed, and I predict right now that the example will inspire more Hezbollah’s elsewhere.

But battles don't always win wars, you know that.And If the surrounding states are going to think twice before they allow "operation" from their territory then the war is won form Israelis perspective. That fact should strengthen Israelis hand in any future border negotiations, and or treaties that it might sign. Not to mention that it also weekends the position of anyone thinking of backing the Palestinians themselves. How many offers of state sponsored military backing do you think they are getting today?

There is also the fact that if we accept your view that Hizbollah won the battle, they played their card, now everyone know what to expect from Hizbollah and will plan accordingly, without making any strategic gains whatsoever.They shot their load. Now what?

And right now they are weaker than ever having to divert their attention to rebuilding, restocking, and retraining, recruiting, and regrouping. Having their population spread out also gives them a smaller base from which to work.

"In other words, your entire spiel on the BCCI was to make a point that money COULD possibly be laundered in a similar way for Hezbollah etc etc" (Bruno).

You almost seem to be grasping a concept, Bruno. Although you are still jumping to conclusions and trying to put words into other people's mouths while ignoring the central point.

The point, that I am making, and which you cannot bring yourself to admit, is that money laundering is something which keeps armed groups armed. The BCCI is a famous example of an institution which facilitated a lot of laundering and arming. The BCCI moved a lot of US money between high ranking US goverment officials and high ranking eastern patriarchs. The BCCI was supposed to have been dissolved and was later found to be still operating in 2002.

While yourself, Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, the president of Iran and many other two-faced bigots all busily bag Israel and claim that "Israel is an agent of US Imperialism", the history of the BCCI and Prince Bandar, proven agent of Imperialism, is almost completely ignored. So, what I am pointing out is that there are a lot of loudmouthed hypocrits in the world willing to blame anything to do with money on the Jews, while meanwhile the BCCI, arguably one of the most corrupt banks in the world, was (and possibly still is) run by bankers who would probably consider themselves Muslims and Christians.

A question for you to ask yourself: Do people who launder billions of dollars for a living just humbly dissappear and start working for charity when their bank is found to be corrupt?

Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah have allaccepted US dollars. Some secretively, through organisations like the BCCI, and others relatively more openly, like the Palestinian Authority, who as well as having an arrangement with the US government also received, yes received, tax payments from, surprise surprise, Israel. In fact the Palestinian Authority seemed to have quite a deal with Israel, where Israel collected approximately $55 million a month in taxes for the PA and passed on the receipts for the PA to 'cash in'. Because Palestine could not collect it's own taxes as Palestine was not officially a country, and was not officially a country because Palestine had refused to be one some time ago and was in the slow process of changing it's mind, Israel was really being quite generous in helping the PA flout the system. That is, until Hamas was elected and Hamas announced Israel did not exist. Which is when Israel stopped passing over the receipts - because how can a place that does not exist collect taxes?

[pme] “The point, that I am making, and which you cannot bring yourself to admit, is that money laundering is something which keeps armed groups armed. […] So, what I am pointing out is that there are a lot of loudmouthed hypocrits in the world willing to blame anything to do with money on the Jews, while meanwhile the BCCI, arguably one of the most corrupt banks in the world, was (and possibly still is) run by bankers who would probably consider themselves Muslims and Christians.”

Money laundering supports armed groups? Say it ain’t so! Coming from SA, I’m more than aware of this fact. Big deal. Muslims and Christians support armed groups? Again, this is not exactly “new” news. Have you noticed the sky is blue lately? The point of your entirely pointless train of thought is … ?

[pme] “Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah have all accepted US dollars.”

Point of order here. Are you referring to the currency itself or the origin of the currency? If so, you will have to provide something a little more substantial than your own opinion on this matter, particularly your allegation that Hezbollah has been financed by the US.

The Israeli taxes story I am also aware of. Smells like a way to keep Fatah nice and corrupt to me, using Palestinian money.

So sorry, I forgot you have difficulty understanding complex concepts. My fault. I thought I had separated two trains of thought into two separate posts but apparently that is too much for your head to handle at one time.

Read the posts slowly and carefully Bruno, here, let me help.

"Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah have all accepted US dollars" was written in a fresh post introducing a new issue related to the first issue. An issue, incidentally, which I see you are unable to refute because as usual when you cannot refute a fact you try to bullshit your way out of the lost argument corner with "big deal" "pointless" etc etc. I'll post more about the new separate issue in another new separate post, to keep things simple.

"Are you referring to the currency itself or the origin of the currency?" (Bruno)

Please let me know the moment you have evidence that money changers are trading with US dollars minted in China. It would be bigger then Iraq, if you could provide proof.

Otherwise, I see you are beginning to face the fact of the matter, which is, Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah do exactly what they accuse others of doing.

"The Israeli taxes story I am also aware of. Smells like a way to keep Fatah nice and corrupt to me, using Palestinian money." (Bruno)

Actually, it was the Palestine taxes story. The Palestinian Authority arranged to have Israel collect taxes from Palestinians for Palestine. Israeli taxes are completely different and are paid by Israelis to Israel.

What the PA had to gain from the arrangement; quite a bit. The PA didn't have to play the role of the "nasty big-nosed tax collector", Palestine could still pretend to not be a country (Palestinians refused a state of their own in 1948 and in October 2000), the PA could start to move away from it's dependence on hand-outs from non-Palestinians, the PA could begin to build Palestine an independent tax system and the PA could probably get away with claiming tax on income Palestinian commuters earned in Israel. Basically, the PA could bring more money (a neighbour's money, more or less) into Palestine’s economy and maybe look at becoming properly independent someday.

What Israel had to gain; not much. Israel’s government probably saw the deal as more of a concession that might lead to peace somewhere along the line. If Israel could work with Palestine to strengthen Palestine's economy, the reasoning probably went, then both areas could become stronger, more independent and rely less on foreign trade from outside the middle east. Places that are economically independent, with a number of smaller closely connected local economies co-operating, might be more likely to survive then if they all relied on another much larger far away economy that might collapse and cause a global depression.

The plan almost looked like it might work, until Hamas showed up. As under-discussed as this topic is, it actually has quite a bit to do with the latest war. To get elected and then to stay elected, in a region prone to coups, Hamas needed to do two things. First, Hamas needed to make any opposition (mainly Fatah - the former PA) look unpopular and second Hamas had to unite Palestinians against a common enemy to offset any internal dissatisfactions. The Palestine taxes story proved the perfect foil – it made the PA seem like imperialist collaborators and it made everyone mad at the Jews (as usual). Hamas would save the poor toiling Palestinians from the bloodsucking PA and Israel, or so the story went, more or less. It’s still a little too early to know how things will pan out but there are parallels with other history lessons, which some people would rather not repeat.

I think we can safely assume that since the arab world blames everything everywhere at all times under all circumstances forever and ever on the dreaded Yid menace that we don't have to worry about dialog, compromise, conciliation or solutions. And that works for me, personally because frankly who cares? In 30 years the Arab world will be a lunar landscape of poverty, oppression, famine, religious fundamentalism and such. At that point they can blame the Jews all they want.

"It stands to reason that people can do their best work and boost their economical levels annually if they aren't beaten, tortured, and murdered on a regular basis." Rhiannon.

Rhiannon, it certainly does. What impresses me is that Israelis have managed to boost their economic levels anyway.

I guess Israel's success in the face of adversity is why Fatah was finally coming around to the idea that working with Israel might be a good idea instead of just focussing on blowing Israelis up all the time. Afterall, Israelis seem impervious to destruction.

[PME] “"Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah have all accepted US dollars" was written in a fresh post introducing a new issue related to the first issue. An issue, incidentally, which I see you are unable to refute because as usual when you cannot refute a fact you try to bullshit your way out of the lost argument corner with "big deal" "pointless" etc etc.”

There must be something in the water in Australia, because seriously, you lot all seem to be nuts. You’re not the first completely cracked Aussie I have run into. Are you still using lead water pipes, perchance? You also said:

"Are you referring to the currency itself or the origin of the currency?" (Bruno)[PME] Please let me know the moment you have evidence that money changers are trading with US dollars minted in China. It would be bigger then Iraq, if you could provide proof.”

Listen, you seem to think you are “winning” something, whereas the truth is you have make a bullshit accusation that essentially amounts to accusing the USA of subsidizing Hezbollah. You made this accusation without a shred of evidence, only innuendo. In the generally accepted sense of a logical argument one has to put up evidence or shut up, something that you have extreme difficulty in doing, perhaps because you have difficulty in separating fantasy from reality. You also have great difficulty in making yourself understood through the haze of essentially pointless points you make.

REALITY: you have no proof for your innuendo.

REALITY: You need facts to make an argument.

This tendency to mixing fantasy and reality is going to get you into deep trouble someday. Case in point is the mistake you made in posting Skizm’s IP address. If you are able to get his IP, then you can get mine. Clearly they are not the same. I’d recommend, therefore, that you adopt a more reality-based approach to both life. It might save you a lot of hassles with people that never had a hassle with you in the first place.

"It stands to reason that people can do their best work and boost their economical levels annually if they aren't beaten, tortured, and murdered on a regular basis." Rhiannon.[PME] “Rhiannon, it certainly does. What impresses me is that Israelis have managed to boost their economic levels anyway.”

Ah, yes, the poor suffering Israelis. It’s hard work murdering young Palestinian girls and driving bulldozers over olive groves. Shucks, they ought to get more credit for their efforts. Maybe a medal or two.

Wow, you're impressed because Israel managed to boost their economical levels anyway! Hmmm......Can't say how. Oh Wait! I've got it! Israel's got its North American Christian Zionists (laughter) and these deluded people contribute a nice healthy packet of billions to their "Chosen Holy Land" Pals...then there's the Federal Reserve, World Bank. But lets not forget the generous North American tax payers! Most importantly, there's the Holocaust money-making machinery/industry. Scads and scads of money come from there! Oh yeah, Israel's doing FABULOUSLY well when its leeching off of others. How sad that it spends so much money and time murdering Arab people.

[pme]"I guess Israel's success in the face of adversity is why Fatah was finally coming around to the idea that working with Israel might be a good idea instead of just focussing on blowing Israelis up all the time. Afterall, Israelis seem impervious to destruction."

Come again? Let us work with ratios, shall we? The blowing up of Israelis to the blowing up/shooting/beating to death/of Palestinians is about...say 5 : 1,000 in a year's time.

Let me slide much more needed information into your "brain":

Palestinians do not have bulldozers. They don't have tanks. Why, they have nothing near the amount or sophistication of WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION that the "brave" "courageous" Israeli militia ROBOTS have.

Palestinians haven't destroyed one Israeli's home (and to mow down an Israeli's home would take much more bulldozing compared to that of a Palestinian's ramshackle)from anytime in the past and not likely in the future.

When you talk about Israelis being impervious to destruction (fits of giggles) you've got that backwards, don't you? (I mean you must have meant the Palestinians, didn't you?) Take away their flak jackets, machine guns, helmuts, advanced artillery force,tear gas, the 100 ft high fat grey coffins, excuse me, I mean WALLS, their USA-paid-for bomb shelters and warning sirens, the so called "jewish" settlers (who are more maniacally hell-bent on murdering palestinian kids than the soldiers are)and the insanely massive amounts of money coming in to feed the coffins, excuse me, I meant COFFERS of Israel - take that away...what do you have? A bunch of ninnies flying in all directions, grabbing their original passports (gee, I hope they kept them!) and running back to where they came from.

It's always a "challenge" to make one understand just how blatantly pathetic it is to state that Israelis are "impervious to destruction".

But I left out the word "seem", didn't I? That would be an important keyword here: SEEM.

I agree with what you said. What really interests me is the way some people can flip reality around and make it seem as if the Palestinians are on the verge of massacring old Israeli ladies in their kibbutzes while in truth Israeli soldiers are systematically demolishing what passes for Palestinian society.

skizm, you don't have to necessarily hack a computer to get an IP. Try the "whois" service for a simple demonstration of obtaining IP's from individuals. There are other ways and software that one can use to get the info w/out too many hassles.

But yes, I agree with you. If she has a problem, she has it with ME, not you. This attitude of hers is ridiculous.

Afterall it's kind of hard to take back your claim that your IP was the false one that somebody else posted to see how willing you are to lie about things.

As far as Israel goes, I have yet to see you introduce any "new" evidence that can justify Hezbollah's muckracking and the death of hundreds of civilians as a result.

You seem to be trying to justify the war which Hezbollah started, and which killed hundreds of people, and destroyed hundreds of homes, by digging up an unrelated incident with a bulldozer that happened several years ago in another place, that was not Lebanon, and while tragic was a chance a young woman took when she decided to lie herself down in front of earthmoving machinary.

Personally, if I had sacrificed myself in front of a bulldozer to try and win world peace, I would be appalled if someone tried to justify the death of hundreds of Lebanese citizen's by invoking my actions. She's a bit like your Jesus Christ isn't she, Rachel Corrie, dying spread-eagled for the salvation of others, all to no avail. Or perhaps she is your Joan of Arc, an impressionable child saint to add to your pantheon, another war memorial, your trophy. A trophy, it goes without saying, that she can never enjoy.

It seems you need martyrs to justify your crusade. It seems you need lambs to offer your dieties. Justice and Truth-Smear, the secular gods of war. So much for losing your religion.