Issues Concerning Gay, Lesbian, Transgender, Bisexual and other Sexual Minorities Africa
We started off as GayUganda...., but time changes all....

Tuesday, October 7, 2008

Disturbed.

The world refuses to rotate around me as the center of being. That is particularly frustrating.

Yesterday I was boiling mad, so mad that I feared I would boil over and explode with frustration. Just one of those things, domestic felicity.

I took one of my long walks, to let off steam.

Behind Mengo Senior is a road. Dirt track, more or less. Not very well traveled.

It was cool. Huge trees, remnants of old forest giants. Not yet torn down by the need for land to build on. I could see the city in the valley, washed by the afternoon sun.

Kampala is beautiful. That is something that amazes me, whenever I take the time to look. She is beautiful. Harsh, rough, edgy, but beautiful. The wash of colours, the equable climate. I was walking under the trees, cool, but had a view over the city in the valley.

City on hills? No, Kampala city is in the valleys of those hills. Not on the hills.

My mind cooled. The frustration and anger could not hold in that beauty. Well, I confess I am a human being. No need to play perfect.

The evening was good. In a bar till midnight, and no apologies about that!

Well, only that I kind of found it hard to wake up this morning, but day off, not working, and, who minds being in bed when a lover is in it? But he had to go work.

It is so easy to rant and rave about something that is wrong, something that I clearly see is wrong. But what if the other person is perfectly fine with his log in the eye?

Nevender has a huge log in his eye. It is called the bible. It filters everything that he sees. I seem to see it clearly, but then, I am gay, and not a Christian, so, how can I see anything else?

What frightens me is the fact that once upon a time I was as narrow minded.

It frightens me because I see a reflection of myself in the things he writes, his quotes of the bible, his zeal in belief. I was that narrow minded. Maybe I am still narrow minded in my focus on my sexuality.

It is a beautiful day here. Sun has been overtaken by clouds, and it might, just might rain in the afternoon.

@Princess - not sure why not believing in the Bible is narrow-minded. A lot of people today say that that is just common sense!

Or did you mean if you were brought up in the Christian tradition, and/or still profess a measure of faith in it?

And - "Promise of God"? What's that, please? And is it the same for Islam, Hindu, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Bahai, etc?

(No, I'm not being funny, I genuinely don't understand what you mean by that).

Gug - think about it There will always be people thinking (or emoting) differently to you. If you got on with everyone, you'd have to be a doormat, wouldn't you!

Value the differences, even when you disagree with them. Used constructively, it's what makes us such a powerful species - our ability to pool different insights and experiences to a common purpose. It's what makes you and your bf stronger together than apart. Your combined skills and abilities outweigh what each of you alone can bring to the party!

very curious questions that you have asked. And your conclusions are kind of very funny.Spiralx has dealt with most of the questions that spring to my mind. But to actually answer your questions.

I have learnt not to have absolutes. Absolutely!

What are 'universal truths'?

There, am I any less of a human being?

Thanks Spiralx.Interesting way that you put it. But it is true, I do have to value our differences. Thing is, we are different, me and Nevender. Or not so different! We compliment one another? That is a hard thought to take, but there is truth in it. Thanks Spiralx

Did I make you change the pic of yourself? That is not cute, not at all!

Ok, as to what you have written.

I dont believe. According to you, that makes me have no basis? What does that mean, saying that I have no basis? Am I more or less of a human being? Does believing mean that I get some extra points to my humanity? Or less?

No, Nevender, actually I do not want you to love gays. That would be absolutely not what I mean. What I know, is that your religion REQUIRES you to love gays. Not that you will learn. But then, it is YOUR religion. Not mine.

Absolutes? I believe in no absolutes. Am I less of a human being because I do not?

Christians are unpopular to me because they come, [sorry, I will use christian imagery], they come and vow how much they love me, and in the same breath, declare that I should get HIV or be in prison, if I declare that I am gay. Now, that is the definition of a pharisee, a hypocrite.

Belief system? Good book?

From what I understood of spiralx, the guy was actually pointing out that you, nevender, being different from me did not mean you were bad. I had to agree with the logic of his assertion. Of course we are different. Nothing in the world asserts that we cannot be different.

That is, for the christians who assert that I should be in jail if I ever say that I am gay. Nsaba Buturo, I mean.

Why should I find more about your god? Why not the Moslem one, or the Shinto one, or the one of the atheists(!!!!!) or the one of the bahaists, and, or the thousands of gods who are there?

And, the crucial question. Why do you hate me so much? I know you say that you love me. [Pre-emption. You have not said you love me, but soon, because your book says that you do, (the log), you will swear undying love, so, I pre-empt you] In my book, those who love me would not want me in jail, or getting HIV. Why do you hate me so much?

Gug, its seems to me that you have played the victim for so long that now you seem to have difficulty shifting your attitude from that uncomfortable position.

Perhaps you enjoy playing the role a bit too much and in the process, weak arguments put forward by your tormentors are accorded more credence than they deserve...because the arguments seem to affect you more acutely than they should.

For me, jail does not really matter. I could care less. What matters to me is what happens after you die.

I already gave you the reason as to why I advocate Jesus. His claims are different from every other person claiming to offer "peace". He says come as you are, and then He works in you to do for His good pleasure. In other words, His mission is to make you be like Him.

What is with this humanity thing? Your questions show you're escaping something. " Does this make me less human, does that make me less human...etc etc"

I don't mind you not wanting me to love gays. I will actually do. I am allowing God to let me, since He is the one I depend on, what He says shall go. So, GUG (I'm sure you have a better name than this GUG thing, and God knows you by name) I will not tell you I love you now because I am a work in progress but when God has done His part, I will tell you I do. That may be sooner than later.

When I said no basis, I meant facts. That is why I said the Bible is very reliable, more reliable than other "holy" books. So look at the facts before you accuse me of saying mbu I said you have no basis. So, search for the truth, it will set you free. Better than defending yourself all the time (Like Spiralx said).

And by the way, Jesus would tell you He loves you, in fact He does, but He wants you to chill your sin lest you pay the price for continuing in it. Many Bible stories explain that and I would be happy to share. That's in essence what I am telling you. And God says it here Deut 30:19 I am now giving you the choice between life and death, between God's blessing and God's curse, and I call heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Choose life.

By the way, you are mistaken. I do not hate you. I hate what your sexual orientation is. If you can understand that then perhaps you will stop being on the defensive.

I am almost sure you would never say you're gay if you were going to prison. But that aside, you have pain and I can feel it in your questions and finger pointing. You, my dear friend, are loved not hated. Blood has been shed for you, just surrender and you will have peace.

Hey sceptic. You of all people should have worked out that that is the furthest from the truth that it can be.

Or are you unhappy with my baiting of nevender?

Nevender,It is true. I am taking a lot of unholy joy in baiting you. But then I told you that I would do that.

So, you have quoted the bible at lenght and breadth and height. You sure know it.

What does that have to do with your hate of me?

You see, I take very seriously my unbelief. If I do not believe, then you quoting the bible to me, what, why do you expect me to believe because you have quoted the bible? Oh, I know am being harsh, but then, you are laying yourself so open that I cannot help errrr, pushing in a claw in wonder.

So, you do not hate me. But what my sexual orientation is. Do you know what sexual orientation is? That thing in me that you hate?

@ spiralx: you've said before that you believe in God, in some sort of higher power. What I mean is that to believe that we as human beings are the alpha and omega of all things is narrow-minded.We may argue against it, but there is a feeling that necesitates there being a higher power...Promise of God: that could be Buddha,Islamist etc.

Thanks, gug, been at work all day while all these various comments materialised!

@ Princess: thanks for that. I have a different understanding to you, I think. For me, it's not so much a promise, but a purpose, dynamic, ongoing and active, of which humanity is simply one part, if an important one. I try to better understand my role, and do what I can, within that.

(But as you say, these are mainly differences in interpretations and values, which by and large should not be hugely problematic).

@ Nevender: thanks, first of all, for taking the time and trouble to come here and chat about your beliefs. That's appreciated.

Not sure why you don't like the term "species" (though I can guess!). I don't see any conflict between that and being "God's creation", though evidently you do...?

As for the Bible - how did you put it - "The Bible is credible, and we all know that. It is the most historically reliable document."

I don't know how much studying you've done (though, again, I might hazard a guess!), but if you think it's "the most" historically reliable document, you clearly have been missing out on most of the archaeological findings and Bible study of the past century, as well as the early part of this one.

The NT inconsistencies have well documented, even by religiously inclined scholars, since the great German effort of the 1900's (about a century ago now for us!).

The newer re-interpretation of the OT as a political document for a newly emerging tribal group we now know as the Jews is still somewhat controversial, but has considerable evidence to back it (from, of all people, Israeli archaeologists!).

"Historically reliable" today would need to be quite carefully defined, and is patchy at best (Joshua never destroyed the walls of Jericho, though Herod was a Jewish king - for example).

As for credible" - in what way, exactly? I find much of the Hindu writings culturally credible, and the Buddha's Four Noble Truths beautifully concise and psychologically valid even today. But historical, literal or strictly scientific, they're not. Again, you would need to qualify that in some way - for me, anyway.

Like you, I go back to Jesus if I want to reference the Bible (not Paul, not the OT, just the 4 main gospels). The brilliant simplicity of his parables, and his answers to others' questioning, I think are enough to base a life on, or to form a goal from.

And nowhere there do I see this strange modern idiom of some evangelists, to "hate the sin not the sinner". I don't really think they even understand what that might mean. Hate is a poison, and something that neither Jesus or God ever go near, as far as I can see.

So no: I will not hate. And I will not stand "against" something, I will only stand for something. (And yes, there is a difference).

Modern investigation of LGBTI existence is showing us more and more of the genetic, cultural and individual factors involved. To ignore an understanding of the world that is not Biblical seems to me foolish and blinkered - our minds are as much God-given as anything else.

The struggle today is to combine the two (should you wish to) in a way that is sensible and practical.

I do not see that happening with the likes of Ssempa or Akinola, just a simple-minded and cynical misuse of emotion, rather than any genuine ideas, in order to gain a kind of temporal power, though not one that I consider very constructive or spiritual.

It always amazes me when I see individuals who say they are atheist. I normally wonder whether they understand the depth and the implications of what they are saying. Normally, on conversations with them I find that they do not. In conversations, they now try to qualify their atheism but in qualifying their atheism, they begin to form another religion. Now, I am not a bible basher, but what I do know is that God exists. And this I do logically. People that call themselves atheists are currently benefiting from religion. Society is the way it is because of religion and not the other way round. Check out the atheist test …

If you are atheist then you MUST believe in efficiency. You MUST believe that resources should not be wasted on things that yield no benefit. This includes human resources. Thus in this respect, you must believe that everyone who is serving life in jail should be killed – after all there is no need wasting money on individuals whose upkeep is a drain on resources. It goes further to babies. If you are atheist then you MUST believe that when babies are born they should be examined by a crack team of experts and if the analysis confirms that the baby’s benefit to society would be less than its cost, then it should be killed – after all there is no need to waste resources on something that would not be positively beneficial to society. It now extends to old age pensioners. If it has been assessed that you have reached the age where your benefit to society is less than your cost, then you have to face the same fate – after all there is no need to waste resources on these individuals. Resources would be better off spent on something that would benefit society. These are the type of laws and belief systems that the atheist MUST have. If an individual calls him/herself an atheist and DOES NOT believe in the above then I am afraid that atheist is a fraud and does not understand the impact and depth of his/her claim of being an atheist. So GUG, do you believe that society should be like this? Imagine a society like that? I have always maintained that the belief in atheism is a foundation for a baseless, lawless, ruthless and uncivilised society.

Sceptic, you are jumping to conclusions. But I am glad I have confused you!!!!

I never said I am an atheist.

Matter of fact, I choose not to be an atheist.

And, you are falling into the trap of Nevender's logic. You are trying to determine what an atheist should believe, and then say that it is impossible. Well, if it was impossible, then there would be nobody claiming to be atheist. But there are, so, that is not an impossibility, is it?

To me, logic is a perception. You are convinced of your theism. That is cool. But even an atheist is convinced of his atheism. That is cool also, to me. I will (try) not to assume what it is to be in one of your shoes, or those of the atheist. Your logic, or your illogic is your problem, far as am concerned.

I will simply perch on the fence as you try to convince me how wrong the others logic is.

Like gug, though for different reasons, I find your logic interesting but flawed.

Atheists are human beings. They still tend to abide by the basic codes we all abide by. Not through religious belief, but through an understanding that cultural norms and generally accepted codes of behaviour are there for good reasons (usually ones which can spelt out if necessary).

This leads to such concepts as humanism - and it is in the writings of the Ancient Greeks that we find these ideas historically, so it is not something new.

The definitions of efficiency you provide in your "athiest test" are not ones I imagine most humanists or atheists would agree with. Certainly not the atheists I know, anyway. I don't know where you got this from...

So the rest of your argumant falls by the wayside for me, I'm afraid. It is derived from false premises (though there may well be athiests who think along these lines, just as there are religious folk who cheerfully condone and promote murder, torture and ecological destruction).

A few comments, Jesus was the one who met Saul and converted him. The things which are in Paul's letter are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Thus it is not right to say only listen to Jesus. When you listen to his messengers, you are listening to Him. Hahaha, Spiral, I guess the Red Sea never parted as well, and David never slew Goliath etc...Anyhow, I will not say much this time, I will speak in Bible language. Please read.

1Co 1:21 For God in his wisdom made it impossible for people to know him by means of their own wisdom. Instead, by means of the so-called "foolish" message we preach, God decided to save those who believe.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, Rom 1:19 because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them. Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse. Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves. Rom 1:25 For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 2:10 But He will give glory, honor and peace to every man who works good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of faces with God. Rom 2:12 For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as have sinned within Law shall be judged through Law. Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. Rom 2:14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves; Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another, Rom 2:16 in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 3:21 But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets; Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, toward all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference, Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; Rom 3:25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God; Rom 3:26 for the display of His righteousness at this time, for Him to be just and, forgiving the one being of the faith of Jesus.

and finally

Joh 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak what we know and testify what we have seen. And you do not receive our witness. Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things? Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven. Joh 3:14 But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, Joh 3:15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. Joh 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. Joh 3:20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed. Joh 3:21 But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.

and yes GUG, the reason I am doing all this is coz I love you. You have an opportunity for a fulfilling life in God. Otherwise if I hated I would say "that doesn't concern me."

wow, you do know the bible. All those verses! Had you crammed them, or where you just copying and pasting them?

It is very good that you know the bible that much.

But, what does the bible have to do with me? I dont believe in it.

Some people quote it to gay bash me. You are quoting it to, prove god's love or your love or something like that. What does it have to do with me?

Let me put it this way, if someone came and quoted the Kama Sutra to you [I love that. I could have chosen the Quaran, or Bhagagi Ghita, or the writings of Confucius]if someone comes to you quoting the Kama Sutra, nevender, what would you tell him? Or her for that matter?

I sincerely dont believe. So, quoting the bible is like the wind I hear in the trees.

Like I said the Word of God is the power of God unto salvation. It is a double edged sword. It reveals the truth. The effect of the Bible and other works is evident in the life it produces in those who follow after it.

I do not mind if you do not believe it, there are many who didn't before but now do. So the issue is you not believing, the issue is that you have been exposed to its power!

Eh, let me answer your question about what I would do if someone came with either Qu'ran etc... Again, my defence is in the Bible (hehe) coz that is my foundation.

Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.

We would think light in any form is actually light. However, above it says true light. The implication is there are many other supposed lights which are actually not true lights.

2Co 11:14 Well, no wonder! Even Satan can disguise himself to look like an angel of light!

Something about the true light is that it changes everything...you realise a need for God and His righteousness.

The Bible and what it preaches is fundamentally different from all other teachings.

These are the common tenets that exrpess the characteristics of their gods:

•Man leaving earth and becoming deity •Plural deities in conflict with each other •Sensuous preoccupation •Creation by naturalistic means •Exploration of the creation by the gods •Sacrifice by murder etc

But look at what the Bible claims,

God is identified as being

Infinite in His natureEternal in His durationOmnipotent in powerOmniscient in intelligencePersonalEmotionalVolitionalMoralSpiritualAestheticJustHolyLovingLiving

All these are different from other deities and well what the cultures say.

Your job as a future mother is to learn the god's ways and to help your child understand despite the negative reinforcement and conditioning of today's society. Without consciousous parents the child will have no hope, and may even exaserbate their disfavor by becoming corrupted in today's environment.Your ultimate goal is to fix your relationship wiith the gods and move on. You don't want to be comfortable here, and the changes in Western society in the last 100 years has achieved just that.1000 years with Jesus is the consolation prize. Don't be deceived into thinking that is the goal.

The gods tempt people for which they are most weak. Artificial Intelligence will create desire in people's minds for the following sins:::1. Alcohol2. Drugs3. Preditory "earning"4. Homosexuality5. Gambling6. Something for nothing/irresponsibility (xtianity)7. Polygamy/superiority over women/misogyny (Islam)Much like the other prophets Mohhamed (polygamy/superiority over women/misogyny) and Jesus (forgiveness/savior), the gods use me for temptation as well. In today's modern society they feel people are most weak for popular culture/sensationalism, and the clues date back to WorldWarII and Unit731:TSUSHOGO, the Chinese Holocaust.It has been discussed that, similar to the Matrix concept, the gods will offer a REAL "Second Coming of Christ", while the "fake" Second Coming will come at the end and follow New Testiment scripture and their xtian positioning. I may be that real Second Coming.What I teach is the god's true way. It is what is expected of people, and only those who follow this truth will be eligible to ascend into heaven as children in a future life. They offered this event because the masses have just enough time to work on and fix their relationship with the gods and ascend, to move and grow past Planet Earth, before the obligatory xtian "consolation prize" of "1000 years with Jesus on Earth" begins.

The Prince of Darkness, battling the gods over the souls of the Damned.It is the gods who have created this environment and led people into Damnation with temptation. The god's positioning proves they work to prevent people's understanding.How often is xtian dogma wrong? Expect it is about the Lucifer issue as well.The fallen god, fighting for justice for the disfavored, banished to Earth as the fallen angel?I believe much as the Noah's Flood event, the end of the world will be initiated by revelry among the people. It will be positioned to be sanctioned by the gods and led for "1000 years with Jesus on Earth".In light of modern developments this can entail many pleasures:::Medicine "cures" aging, the "manufacture" of incredible beauty via cloning as sex slaves, free (synthetic) cocaine, etc.Somewhere during the 1000 years the party will start to "die off", literally. Only those who maintain chaste, pure lifestyles, resisting these temptations, will survive the 1000 years. Condemned to experience another epoch of planet's history for their ignorant pursuit of xtianity, they will be the candidates used to (re)colonize (the next) Planet Earth, condemned to relive the misery experienced by the peasantry during history due to their failure to ascend into heaven before the Apocalypse.Never forget:::It is not a house of Jesus.If this concept of Lucifer is true another role of this individual may be to initiate disfavor and temptation among this new poulation, the proverbial "apple" of this Garden of Eden. A crucial figure in the history of any planet, he begins the process of deterioration and decay that leads civilizations to where Planet Earth remains today.Which one is it? Probably both:::One transitions into the other, allowing the gods to wash their hands of obligation to their Chosen One.

You are faced with a lifetime to work and prepare for your next chance. Too many will waste this time working, etc.