First of all spirit is by no mean our best stat. It's still intellect our best stat. The fact that you MAY gem spirit has nothing to do with it being our main stat. Second, the more spirit you get the less healing you'll do: your spells are weak, you have low crit/mastery and, after all, spirit is not that great if you really know how much MP5 would give you 1 single point of spirit. Plus, you have to consider WHY you are going oom in the middle of the fight: your tanks use CD to reduce damage? Your raid avoid avoidable damage? You are doing the proper strategy according to the boss mechanic? Are you efficient healing or are you just spamming like a brainless bot?

Let's not forget that spirit has a cap. Yeah, sounds strange but it has a cap. You reach the cap when you are confortable with mana and you drop spirit for intellect. That sounds to me like a cap (like the haste one, like hit/exp for dps, and so on) because if you end the fight with at least 20% mana (hence you are confortable with mana) spirit loose all his value because more spirit won't give you nothing more than mp5 that will go wasted because more mana at the end of the fight doesn't raise your HPS.

I could agree that spirit can be better than intellect the first time you enter a raid and you are 20 ilvl under the optimal gear (something like 460 for MV) but once you know the fights and you get better gear you'll drop spirit for intellect.

So, spirit is not the answer in every case.

Wanna talk about mastery? Let's talk about it. Our mastery is one of the best mastery out there, in my opinion. The only problem is that if you run with 2 healers that keep topping people no matter what your mastery will worth 0. Yeah, 0. So 50%, 70%, 30% mastery will always be too much. Instead, if you run with 2 healers that just keep people alive your mastery will worth like crit, if not more (I'd say more since crit is too RNG to really rely on it). So, I agree with table: you have to balance crit and mastery, according to your raid composition.

I'm not here to teach anyone, that's just my opinion. Just to be clear.

WOW. You are the first person ive seen who has the exact same opinion as me =D, Yea i absolutely hate spirit, it doesnt keep people alive and usually i have enough mana to keep people alive even on healing intensive fights

How'd Echo work out for you, Biotics? Getting ready to start H Feng 25 on Tuesday, and with the whole raid in HR for most of the fight, might not be too bad.

I killed heroic Feng with AS I tried the Echo after and in a 10 man its def not worth it maybe further down the road when Crit starts to lose its value due to the amount of passive Crit well get from the amount of intellect on gear.

Have to remember all the benefits from Crit
1 - Mana
2 - 400-500K GHW's
3 - 400-500k GHW's
4-.. well you get my point

HR is not that great the only time the entire raid is stacked is on the Fire phase when he consumes the fire and for the short duration when everyone stacks for the arcane explosion. Outside of those phases at best I have 6 targets to heal with HR and the fight is not constant aoe dmg. I am jealous of you 25 man raiders. The mistweaver pooped on the meters for healing on our kill somehow they can have 30-40% over healing and not run out of their resource. Try echo tho and let me know how you liked it in a 25 setting also throw up some logs after you guys snag a kill

The only thing I can complain about ItalianDK's post is that you can't drop spirit for int. It just doesn't make sense. You can't reforge into int, and if you take 2 pieces of gear of roughly the same item level the one with spirit and the one without will usually have the same amount of int on it or very close to the same.

But, putting that aside, I do think he has a good point. I finally broke 6.5K spirit unbuffed and I finally feel my mana regen is where it should be. Now granted I haven't gotten a chance to do reg mode MSV yet (but my GM is finally 90!), so I may fall flat on my ass when I do step in there, but we'll see.

The only thing I can complain about ItalianDK's post is that you can't drop spirit for int. It just doesn't make sense. You can't reforge into int, and if you take 2 pieces of gear of roughly the same item level the one with spirit and the one without will usually have the same amount of int on it or very close to the same.

But, putting that aside, I do think he has a good point. I finally broke 6.5K spirit unbuffed and I finally feel my mana regen is where it should be. Now granted I haven't gotten a chance to do reg mode MSV yet (but my GM is finally 90!), so I may fall flat on my ass when I do step in there, but we'll see.

He was talking about moving away from spirit gems/flasks/food.

Personally, i'm running 3764 haste with AS to hit the 20.01% haste cap and i'm absolutely loving it. There isn't a single fight that has constant damage that needs to be healed so there is plenty of time for static regen and the use of TC.

Also, intellect is still definitely our best stat because it gives us spell power and crit. I feel like a lot of healers are getting stuck in their "spam heals non-stop in DS mindset." More spirit allows for more regen which allows for more casts. However, with int your casts heal for more and therefore you don't need to heal as often.

With this approach, i also find myself valuing crit a lot less because less casts = less opportunities to crit = less times for resurgence to give me mana.

The only thing I can complain about ItalianDK's post is that you can't drop spirit for int. It just doesn't make sense. You can't reforge into int, and if you take 2 pieces of gear of roughly the same item level the one with spirit and the one without will usually have the same amount of int on it or very close to the same.

But, putting that aside, I do think he has a good point. I finally broke 6.5K spirit unbuffed and I finally feel my mana regen is where it should be. Now granted I haven't gotten a chance to do reg mode MSV yet (but my GM is finally 90!), so I may fall flat on my ass when I do step in there, but we'll see.

My post was more about "spirit > intellect mindset" rather than "drop all of your spirit in favour of intellect" because, as you say, you can't drop spirit for intellect.

There is no need to say that intellect has become less valuable after Blizz changed it but, in my opinion, is still our best stat. People still don't get how gems in MoP have changed the "gem mentality". Before MoP you were gemming your best stat, according to your class/spec and usually it was our main stat (str for dps DK, int for Rshamans, agi for rogues, and so on) but now is a whole different story.

As said before, Spirit is not our best stat.
The only reason why it is now is because we otherwise get oom too quickly, hence we gem Spirit so we can substain longer, and that also counts for the other Healers.
Once you obtain epics from raids, Spirit will become more balanced due to being able to add more gems and the 150 extra spirit it gives on stat. Therefore at one point you will have too much Spirit and will have to gem other stats like Intellect and/or Intellect + other stat gems. Obviously also go for the socket bonusses at that point, some pieces give lovely Spirit bonusses. :P

Spirit is always the entry level best stat, it slowly gets phased out as you progress further into the expansion as the higher ilvl your gear has the more base spirit it will have. Realistically you'll want 10k minimum and then use a flask, eventually you'll move to a pure int flask as your gain better gear etc.

I would politely suggest that those telling us they are only need XYZ level of spirit but havent entered or finished MSV normal modes, please hold back. Gear will clearly matter and if you have bought several VP and crafted items by the time you start raiding then spirit is a bit less important, but I doubt any of you will feel comfortable 2 healing through the learning phase of Will or Elegon with less than 10k spirit fully buffed right now.

As Draex said above, there is no right answer and your own experience and raid capabilities will dictate the right levels. I know the spirit and int bump from the DMC trink was huge for me and has finally let me feel comfortable thinking about Int, though still maintaining 10k+ effective spirit (aka incl trinket equivs and buffs). If your raid takes a lot of unnecessary dmg then you need more spirit for more constant healing, if your raid has high SA then you can probably start leaning toward more throughput oriented stats just to deal with the intended dmg from the raid mechanics.

I would politely suggest that those telling us they are only need XYZ level of spirit but havent entered or finished MSV normal modes, please hold back. Gear will clearly matter and if you have bought several VP and crafted items by the time you start raiding then spirit is a bit less important, but I doubt any of you will feel comfortable 2 healing through the learning phase of Will or Elegon with less than 10k spirit fully buffed right now.

As Draex said above, there is no right answer and your own experience and raid capabilities will dictate the right levels. I know the spirit and int bump from the DMC trink was huge for me and has finally let me feel comfortable thinking about Int, though still maintaining 10k+ effective spirit (aka incl trinket equivs and buffs). If your raid takes a lot of unnecessary dmg then you need more spirit for more constant healing, if your raid has high SA then you can probably start leaning toward more throughput oriented stats just to deal with the intended dmg from the raid mechanics.

I don't think any casual raider, even more experienced ones, should be 2 healing anything this early in the expansion.

I don't think any casual raider, even more experienced ones, should be 2 healing anything this early in the expansion.

really? speaking for 10man normals only, not 25s, but 2 healed garajal, elegon and will. could definitely 2 heal normal doggies too if we were still doing it. kings and feng both need maybe 2.5 healers, could prob do 2 if you really lined up all CD's optimally but the dps req's are low enough not to bother. I know some are 3 healing emporer but I think 2 is actually easier as long as non-tanks arent derping into avoidable dmg from the adds.

I would politely suggest that those telling us they are only need XYZ level of spirit but havent entered or finished MSV normal modes, please hold back. Gear will clearly matter and if you have bought several VP and crafted items by the time you start raiding then spirit is a bit less important, but I doubt any of you will feel comfortable 2 healing through the learning phase of Will or Elegon with less than 10k spirit fully buffed right now.

As Draex said above, there is no right answer and your own experience and raid capabilities will dictate the right levels. I know the spirit and int bump from the DMC trink was huge for me and has finally let me feel comfortable thinking about Int, though still maintaining 10k+ effective spirit (aka incl trinket equivs and buffs). If your raid takes a lot of unnecessary dmg then you need more spirit for more constant healing, if your raid has high SA then you can probably start leaning toward more throughput oriented stats just to deal with the intended dmg from the raid mechanics.

Are you suggesting they not post, if they haven't full-cleared, or what? I realize you're trying to offer that suggestion constructively, but I don't think the net result would best help the entire discussion.

What I think may be better, is if people, when offering their 2 cents, make a note of their progression level. So, the guy who is wiping countless times on stone guards (and may be doing his job perfectly, but is held back by other raiders in his group), can offer his perspective on that fight, where the guy who is 4/6 heroic, and has a broader perspective, can be taken in a different context.

In short, I believe everyone has something viable to add to the discussion, but due to the evolutionary nature of progression (which is what I think you were getting at), that their advice needs to be framed in their own progression-context.

In short, I believe everyone has something viable to add to the discussion, but due to the evolutionary nature of progression (which is what I think you were getting at), that their advice needs to be framed in their own progression-context.

Correct, but I would say that, if someone has no experience in the relevent content, offering an opinion that is not useful. There is a reason the stat priorities are what they are, and there is a reason many of us say you need 10k spirit instead of 5k. Refer folks to Table's guide - fantastic. Cite some of the info from Bink's work on totemspot - fantastic. Tell people info contradictory to accepted practice when you have zero experience raiding in current content - not fantastic.

Agreed, which is why I was trying to figure out if you were aiming that suggestion at people who haven't done full clears, or simply people who are spouting off, based on what they've found works for them, in 5-man heroics (for example). It sounds like you're referring mostly of the latter group, in which case I'll agree completely with you.

Correct, but I would say that, if someone has no experience in the relevent content, offering an opinion that is not useful. There is a reason the stat priorities are what they are, and there is a reason many of us say you need 10k spirit instead of 5k. Refer folks to Table's guide - fantastic. Cite some of the info from Bink's work on totemspot - fantastic. Tell people info contradictory to accepted practice when you have zero experience raiding in current content - not fantastic.

There is a reason why not everyone has 10k spirit and does perfectly fine. There is a reason why people with 10k spirit can still have mana problems.

I've no experience and still I'm saying my opinion and I bet I'm more right than someonelse saying "You need X spirit".

Spirit is always the entry level best stat, it slowly gets phased out as you progress further into the expansion as the higher ilvl your gear has the more base spirit it will have. Realistically you'll want 10k minimum and then use a flask, eventually you'll move to a pure int flask as your gain better gear etc.

The minimum 12.5% crit shouldn't be there if you're going stack crit/int past your predetermined spirit/mastery/haste values assuming those matter more than the arbitrary crit value. And I always wonder where people get the "stack mastery to 50% and then go for crit"-idea from. You should look at what you need which depends on how you heal and who you heal with.

If people are low on health a lot when learning an encouter or if your heals aren't healing enough: get more mastery or int.
If people die before your heals can land: get some extra haste.
Are you having 40% of your mana left at the end of the hardest encounter while your mana/focus potion is unused: feel free to drop some spirit or crit.
Are you having (serious) mana issues: get some extra spirit and crit and try to use a potion of focus rather than a normal mana potion.

And if it's all the above, you probably need some better pieces of gear or a change in healing style/raid composition.

It's the internet. You never know if people are either sarcastic or just bad.

You clearly haven't raid healed or progressed very far if you are forming this opinion. While 9k Spirit may not be mandatory to beat MV normals, you will need more spirit to heal through damage as you progress further through MV. (unless you are running with too many healers, which will make it harder to pass through the DPS checks)

First of all spirit is by no mean our best stat. It's still intellect our best stat. The fact that you MAY gem spirit has nothing to do with it being our main stat.

Wrong. At the current levels of gear available, spirit and int are roughly equal. Seeing as how you get much more spirit from gems, spirit is currently the better option to gem for.

Second, the more spirit you get the less healing you'll do: your spells are weak, you have low crit/mastery and, after all, spirit is not that great if you really know how much MP5 would give you 1 single point of spirit. Plus, you have to consider WHY you are going oom in the middle of the fight: your tanks use CD to reduce damage? Your raid avoid avoidable damage? You are doing the proper strategy according to the boss mechanic? Are you efficient healing or are you just spamming like a brainless bot?

If you run oom healing the raid, you'll only have enough mana to cast lightning bolt or a healing wave, which might not be so helpful when there is aoe going out. When there is burst damage, your raid CDs along with int you get from gear more than cover the damage needed to heal. Some of what you say with damage may be relavent, but blizzard also puts in a large amount of unavoidable damage in most fights.

Let's not forget that spirit has a cap. Yeah, sounds strange but it has a cap. You reach the cap when you are confortable with mana and you drop spirit for intellect. That sounds to me like a cap (like the haste one, like hit/exp for dps, and so on) because if you end the fight with at least 20% mana (hence you are confortable with mana) spirit loose all his value because more spirit won't give you nothing more than mp5 that will go wasted because more mana at the end of the fight doesn't raise your HPS.

There is no "cap". There may be a point where it would be worth gemming int over spirit, but we aren't far enough in to see how much unavoidable damage will be going around in raids. We aren't even at the level of spirit available were you can chain your most inefficient large heals while not having mana problems.

I could agree that spirit can be better than intellect the first time you enter a raid and you are 20 ilvl under the optimal gear (something like 460 for MV) but once you know the fights and you get better gear you'll drop spirit for intellect.

So, spirit is not the answer in every case.

Or you'll just drop a healer on fights and get through farm night faster.

Wanna talk about mastery? Let's talk about it. Our mastery is one of the best mastery out there, in my opinion. The only problem is that if you run with 2 healers that keep topping people no matter what your mastery will worth 0. Yeah, 0. So 50%, 70%, 30% mastery will always be too much. Instead, if you run with 2 healers that just keep people alive your mastery will worth like crit, if not more (I'd say more since crit is too RNG to really rely on it). So, I agree with table: you have to balance crit and mastery, according to your raid composition.

I'm not here to teach anyone, that's just my opinion. Just to be clear.

If you are having a problem where your mastery is constantly worth 0, getting more crit isn't going to help your healing. I would suggest dropping a healer on the fight if you don't have problems keeping people topped. If you're talking about a few low damage phases, your mastery will still help out when its actually needed, rather than padding numbers when people are taking very little damage. The value of Mastery/Crit changes depending on the fight and the healer setup you are running, imo.