I have a problem with eliminating two of the three lower branches as the tree would lose its depth. Icould take off the back one with little detriment but the two visible ones are not only full of natural character, they are also pivotal to the design[ more of a second trunk than branches].

The area you term water shoot, was as smooth as a babies when i swapped it but is now starting to plate. The now top of the tree was a tiny side shoot. The original top was a foot taller. This tree has been incredibly slow and i did very little to it ,bar let it grow and make roots for the first two years. The canopy i agree is very sparce and lacking in ramification. Would you recomend cutting back quite strongly in early spring? Would also like to know your soil preference,im thinking of organic mater in mix. Thanks

‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

I thank you for your criticism about my tree, and I do accept that there are "uncomfortable" aspects of the tree, at the moment. However, I cannot agree with your suggestion about cutting away the right hand side of this tree. I did consider this soon after acquiring the Hawthorn, but quickly dismissed this option because I could clearly see that this would interupt the flow of the tree by visually, and obviously, cutting the pattern of the bark short (not something you would see occuring naturally - too abrupt, even with the most skillful carving techniques).

This is my feeling about the tree, does anyone have comments. Also, I'm still unsure about ideal soil conditions for Hawthorns?

I wouldn't do it. I can see the merit in doing it and you would end up with a nice tree but you.ve got this far with it and its a wonderful tree. There is always another tree inside the tree you have got and its a question of whether you are satisfied with what you have got. Keep it as it is and then look for the next one to work on.

I understand your reticence and the 'flow' of bark texture, this is why i would rotate the tree so that the big 'cut' is towards the back of the tree and the 'flow' of bark would not be interrupted. As for carving... I do not carve Hawthorns, I hollow them... 'deadwood' on hawthorns is rare and transient... ask Doug Mudd

Here is one of the raw material Hawthorns from my garden, the fat lower branch/trunk would you keep it... or cut it?

The tree currently has 3 tops... do I keep them all?

The current 'branches' do I keep them?

It is only possible to make valued judgements when the tree is in front of the viewer, photography is 2 dimensions... trees are not.

The sooner the planning starts the less time wasted later trying to 'correct' faults. I estimate that this tree will be credible as a bonsai within 7 years, and it will be 7 years of planned development, including air-layering that fat lower branch/trunk.

What I would do with your tree Will is to pare down the tree to the basic elements and build branch structure, at the moment your 'bonsai' is not much further on that this material shown here, and it has only been collected 4 months.

As for soil mix, I use 50% loam, 20% Akadama, 20% Kyodama. I have increased the amount of loam over the years as the trees tend to create finer roots. This is a great mix for me... you are in the sunny south... it is grim up north

_________________Tony Tickle.. "that's not your real name is it?"

‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

I've only just noticed this discussion invitation having spent a very wet and windy Scottish morning cleaning out my loft space. Pause to remove the significant quantity of dust that just fell off my head on to the keyboard.

I think the discussion reflects my own increasing awareness of what is possible with hawthorns. (I was going to use the term "growing up" but I am aware that might be taken as a colossal insult to Will - which was most certainly not intended). I bought the fella pictured below three or so years ago and it is undoubtedly a pretty little tree - doubly so as it is a Paul's Scarlet with profuse flowering habit and exquisite colour. Almost a cert for winning the public's favourite tree vote if it's in flower at a flower show - that's of course the Joe Public as opposed to the bonsai public.

But it is, at present, merely that - a pretty little tree. It has little or no advanced ramification and it could be considered really quite boring in shape. However, I believe it has a hidden image and I intend to do something a little more bold with it over the autumn, winter and into next year. With regard to what I will do - well I am awaiting a flash of inspiration of my own plus the input from my grand master swami the Kidderminster Harrier (or since he never seems to be at home - the Wolverhampton Wanderer). But as always, any suggestions are welcome. Pause again, this time for sneezing fit.

To get back to the original point, I think my own development in bonsai has got me to the point where I recognise how I can settle for a "nice tree" or I can go for something a bit more in your face. That is not to say that one is more advanced or merit-worthy than the other, at least certainly not in terms of techniques used to get it there. But I do think a certain amount of (cliche alert!) thinking out of the box can lead you to a bolder statement with your tree. If what you are looking for is a piece of horticulture that you have grown and has ended up through your own efforts as a nice looking, healthy but routinely shaped tree, then that is fine. If on the other hand you are looking for a piece of art, then going for something extra-ordinary (in its true sense) is almost necessary to my mind. Picasso/Goya/Botticelli's (insert artist of own choice) masterpieces were precisely that because they rose above the routine.

I think Will's tree is an extremely good tree and if he is happy with it as it is then that is perfectly fine. It remains his choice and people will continue to admire his tree if he elects to do nothing else to it. If I'm picking Tony up correctly what he is saying is the same but is adding that the possibility of making it into a stunning tree is well within reach just by undertaking a few bold steps. If it doesn't sound too snobby (which it probably will), to me it's a case of the leaven or the lump.

Last edited by fionnghal on Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : tautology! tautology! tautology!)

The more I look at the board the more irked I get (irked - I've impressed mesel' there) at the amount I have to learn. Any of the above trees, in my collection would make me weep with joy. I'm going to post some pictures later of a cork bark elm which I've mangled for some styling advice in a bit so you'll see my point. But what I wanted to say was, all the above are stunning and I struggle to see how they could be improved.

I see what you mean, Will, about any cut at this point of the tree causing difficulties. The close-up reveals much, and unless all you want to see is the tree in silhouette (not a serious suggestion!), I suspect to cut it as previously suggested would create something not pleasing to the eye. Just shows you doesn't it, the extent to which photos can be misleading and all our great ideas go out the window with the benefit of an "eye-witness" account.

fionnghal wrote:I see what you mean, Will, about any cut at this point of the tree causing difficulties. The close-up reveals much, and unless all you want to see is the tree in silhouette (not a serious suggestion!), I suspect to cut it as previously suggested would create something not pleasing to the eye. Just shows you doesn't it, the extent to which photos can be misleading and all our great ideas go out the window with the benefit of an "eye-witness" account.

Re: "What I would do with your tree Will is to pare down the tree to the basic elements and build branch structure, at the moment your 'bonsai' is not much further on that this material shown here, and it has only been collected 4 months".

Tony, you seem to have had a re-think of your original criticisms regarding my Hawthorn. Now, you seem to be all for cutting the whole lot right down and starting again!!!! Surely, you can see the differences between the 4 month old stock you have posted picture of and the tree I am seeking advice on, I know I can. But, perhaps I have mis-interpreted your comments which I'm sure were intended to be helpful.

Hi Will, naturally my comments are meant to be helpful... and intended to give you another perspective on the material. You know the material better than anyone coz its in your garden.

But from my perspective, I would make radical changes to your design... my opinion, you don't HAVE to take it on board.

One think I know to be a universal truth, the earlier the work is done the less heartache further down the line.

I guess there are many 'trees' in your material, and based on the information to hand the big cut is one of the options that I would choose to do... even after seeing your latest pix.

The basis of my 'argument' is to cut through the visual confusion, the smaller trunk has three 'tops' or three branches that are the same thickness, the taller trunk lacks taper. I believe that the way the tree is right now lacks clarity and direction... sorry but that's the way I see it.

and Yes... you will be starting again, but the tree in MY opinion will be all the better for it.

Note: I reserve the right to change my mind when I have seen the tree for real... ... now when can I visit your garden

_________________Tony Tickle.. "that's not your real name is it?"

‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

Thankyou Jose. Although, overall,i am happy with my image,Tony makes some very valid points.As mentioned, there is no way i am prepared to remove the right hand side of the tree. Iwouldnt be afraid to do this as i have done this many times before, i just dont think it will work.I prefer a looser image in my trees, than you often find with the Japanese way of creating Bonsai. Tony. I will be pruning back quite heavily, though maybe not quite as severe as you suggest! you, or anyone else, are more than welcome to come and peruse my humble and cramped collection ,at any time

I hadn't seen the suggestion made by Tony, but I really wouldn't do that. In fact, the tree he posted as an example looks quite nice with the lower left portion. The dancing branch adds character to the composition and the aged bark is of unparallel quality. Large unsightly cuts diminish the value and aesthetics of a bonsai, and, if i am not mistaken, Hawthorns do not heal easily.

Your tree is a good axample of an ancient specimen found in open plains. Take a look at trees from Mr. Lo Min Hsuan. You might find inspiration that will make you think twice on cutting off an important element of your tree.

Kind regards,Jose Luis

Tony,

If that tree were mine (let me say it's spectacular material), i would place it in a huge pot and use this structure as the basis for my design.

Kind regards,Jose Luis

Last edited by jrodriguez on Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

TimR,Notice the flow of the bark, as pointed by the red square. To me, this detail tells me that there's something missing. It also lets me know that sap used to flow in that direction, but was suddenly detained, as would happen when a large cut is made. In my opinion, this looks artificial.

In an attempt to find finished material that might be used as reference when training this type of material, i found this picture of a piracantha angustifolia by Mr. Chiu from Tien Wei, Taiwan. I believe that both specimens presented here can de developed in this style, thus resembling a huge ancient tree. Cutting the tree down to a line or basics is valid, only when the available structure does not offer any possibilities.

The hawthorn material presented in this post is outstanding and displays aged quality in its branches that will NEVER be accomplished by regrowth.