Ok, I'm experinced competitive gamer with about 15 years in cybersport field including strategy games (sc:bw, sc2, dota2, civ, sid meiers alpha centauri and tons more).We already played TONS of freeorion games, it's definetely improving but some flaws are there since the beginning and develops seem to not notice them.

So, these two traits are ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED in good multiplayer 4x strategy game:

1) COUNTERS. Everything must have a cheaper ot more efficient counter. For example, in starcraft siege tanks are exceptionally effective against hydra but are vulnerable to zerglings. But zerlings itself are vulnerable to hydra. Or, in civilization: horseman is good vs most infantry, but is vulnerable to spearmen or pikemen.There is a reason for this - it allows player to ADAPT to enemy. It can scout what enemy is doing and do something that will be effective against him. In freeorion, there are SOME counters (i.e. if you see enemy going stealthy you research radars), but military strength is mostly linear - i.e. one hull/weapon/armor is just more powerful than others and that's it. So if you scouted that enemy is going solar hulls - you can't do anything at all if you're far from solar hulls in tech tree. You can give up and ragequit right away. There are 0 possibilities to adapt. Game is more fun when you are never too safe - i.e. if you have best hulls but game still allows for something cheaper to be effective agaibst them. Now you can just relax and win effortlessly vs technology backward opponent - there is nothing he can do about it.Actual examples of possible solar hulls counters:- add more weapon types with target-hull-specific damage. I.e. some weapon will do 200% vs huge hulls but 50% vs othrrs. Or 150% vs energy hulls but 50% vs robotic hulls. Or ship part that shapes ship's damage, improving it vs specific hull type at the cost of reducing vs other hull types.- add missile payloads - ship parts with heavy damage output but ship itself will be destroyed on impact- make weapon ship parts cheaper but armor parts more expensive. Now it's much more efficient to spawn fat ships with low damage than countervise. It also overpowers fat hulls even more.General advises:- reduce or remove 'minimal time to build' mechanics - it directly hampers ability to adapt. I.e. you have 5k industry, suddenly you need to build military but it will take 10 turns, during which you will lose half of empire and lose the game.- remove 'every next ship is more expensive' - this makes no sense and again overpowers fat expensive hulls (building tons of small ships will be inefficient due to this mechanic)

2) REDUCE RANDOMNESS IN EARLY GAMEEarly game (first 20 turns) now decides 90% of game outcome. Early game is VERY random-dependent. If you're lucky, you will spawn as Egassem and find Scylior nearby - then it's 100% win for you, this combo is ridiculously powerful. If you're unlucky - you will get eaxaw and find no natives nearby and no habitable planets, and your passage out will be blocked by 2 maintenance ships or sentinel. Then it's 100% lose for you. Random influence must be reduced in early game amd more possibiliries to counter unlucky conditions must be probided.Some proposals:- balance bonuses in starting species - reduce bonuses that boost early game (offensive troops), spread generic bonuses (industry, research) to all species equally (if some have 200% industry - let them have 50% research), buff eaxaw and etty (ship weapon bonus is barely useful in early game, and later everybody already had hhhoh or mu ursh so this bonus becomes insignificant. Changing it to +3 would make sense because it will stay in late game. Species with -50% offensive troops must be buffed by removing this penalty or adding some significant additional bonus. -50% off troops is disastrous in early game, and early game decides everything.- let captured natives lose 70-90% population upon conquering, otherwise egassem or anybody lucky can triple its population in first 5-7 turns while others will have to expand slowly. Conquering should be more effective than expanding, but not by 10000%. Or conquered planets may get temporary 'oppression' penalty which limits happyness and population. Right now presense and number of natives near capital decides everything because conquering them so early gives ridiculous boost to everything.- buff planet tolerance of all species, to reduce chances of 'nowhere to settle' condition- during generating universe, balance starting location of every player by adding natives or planets or removing them, to give everyone similar opportunities in early game.

One more problem: sometimes player spawn in center of galaxy. In this case he can give up and ragequit right away because he will inevitably have 3-5 fronts and fight 1 vs 3-5. No way he can survive that way. He can go all military but then he will be behind in industry and/or science and it's just a matter of time fot him to be crushed by surrounding enemies.Solution: eliminate 'galaxy borders' - upon reaching former edge of galaxy you will see lanes to other side of galaxy (so you can fly in circles infinitely). That way everybody will have similar amount of neighbors and game will be more fair. Right now isolated players on the edge of galaxy typically win because they are more safe and can focus on industry anf research in early game.Alternative solution: scale galaxy bonuses by proximity to galaxy center - closer to center = more natives, better planets, more planet bonuses. Then players in center will be outnumbered but will have more resources and opportunities to deal with it.

If you're unlucky - you will get eaxaw and find no natives nearby and no habitable planets, and your passage out will be blocked by 2 maintenance ships or sentinel. Then it's 100% lose for you.

No it's not, Eaxaw deal with Maintenance Ships far more easily than any other species.

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sometimes player spawn in center of galaxy. In this case he can give up and ragequit right away because he will inevitably have 3-5 fronts and fight 1 vs 3-5. No way he can survive that way.

Game I just finished. Plus a game last week.

And I always play against Maniacal AIs and never ask for peace.

I appreciate your arguments are using hyperbole, but when a report is based on exaggeration it's harder to work out if there's an actual problem.

Now: what version are you playing? Because some of the balance/counter arguments you put forward have been addressed recently, others are either actively in the works or will be soon.

And if your enemy is going for Solar, then capture their shipyard. The resources it takes to setup a black hole yard are substantial, and the shipyard itself is deliberately long to build. Grab it first.

_________________Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Keep in mind that FO is still in alpha stage, so a lot of the things you observed simply are a consequence of things being very unfinished/incomplete. It's not that us devs don't notice the issues, flaws and inbalanced things, it's just that we can't address everything at once, and some things tend to be on the backburner almost forever (because other things are considered more important).

afwbkbc wrote:

COUNTERS. Everything must have a cheaper ot more efficient counter. For example, in starcraft siege tanks are exceptionally effective against hydra but are vulnerable to zerglings. But zerlings itself are vulnerable to hydra.

Basically RPS. While we certainly aim for RPS approaches in a lot of game mechanics/elements, that's not the only way of balancing things. Two alternatives with distinct advantages and disadvantages can accomplish that too. Bottom line, what we want to achieve is giving the player interesting choices. So we're basically already aiming for what you want.

But you're definitely right, we aren't there yet, not even close. Still have a long way to go...

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reduce or remove 'minimal time to build' mechanics - it directly hampers ability to adapt. I.e. you have 5k industry, suddenly you need to build military but it will take 10 turns, during which you will lose half of empire and lose the game.

That the min build/research times are far too long in many cases has already been brought up repeatedly, and is on the todo list to be fixed. However, this is tied to a lot of other balancing, it's a very long term project.

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remove 'every next ship is more expensive' - this makes no sense and again overpowers fat expensive hulls (building tons of small ships will be inefficient due to this mechanic)

Yep, that one has been the subject of much discussion already, there are some strong opposing positions/preferences regarding this. General consensus hasn't been reached so far, we're working on this as well.

Species still need a lot of balancing, agreed.

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during generating universe, balance starting location of every player by adding natives or planets or removing them, to give everyone similar opportunities in early game.

There is already something like this in place, to prevent too bad starts. But it probably still needs improvement.

afwbkbc wrote:

Alternative solution: scale galaxy bonuses by proximity to galaxy center - closer to center = more natives, better planets, more planet bonuses. Then players in center will be outnumbered but will have more resources and opportunities to deal with it.

Hm, interesting idea. Can't be applied to all galaxy shape in the same way (as e.g. the ring galaxy does not have a galaxy center, or better there aren't any systems at the center), but still, the basic idea is certainly worth considering.

sometimes player spawn in center of galaxy. In this case he can give up and ragequit right away because he will inevitably have 3-5 fronts and fight 1 vs 3-5. No way he can survive that way.

Game I just finished. Plus a game last week.

And I always play against Maniacal AIs and never ask for peace.

Yes, as human against AIs. Multiplayer might be an entirely different story (btw, that's a problem I've seen with other 4X space games as well). It can't hurt to give it some thought how that can be improved.

Yes, as human against AIs. Multiplayer might be an entirely different story (btw, that's a problem I've seen with other 4X space games as well). It can't hurt to give it some thought how that can be improved.

Very true: I had missed that it was multiplayer being discussed (I assume another Team SMAC member?) And given I'm fairly certain the game is unbalanced against other players in multiple ways for multiplayer it's more useful feedback than it initially appears, so apologies for the dismissive first response, multiplayer balance is a lot harder to do, partially because I can't play multiplayer easily thus we rely more on feedback.

Aside: from another thread I have open multiple tabs to check the balance of solar hulls, they are too cheap for what they are and a tweak will go in very soon.

There's already code in place for Python to ensure players are separated relatively evenly, and we've discussed making the Experimentors be distributed in either a similar way or positioned first, in the middle. Regardless, how hard would it be to distribute players around the edges of a map and avoid the centre? Some maps (Disc) would be a very good balance then, others you could have serious problems (Spiral can end up with 2 players on the same spiral and one with nowhere to go). But if we recommend specific maps for multiplayer (or even have a couple designed for it) then it could help the blockage problem substantially.

I suppose we could also look to ensure specials that generate guards are further away, or that guards within X jumps are always Ancient Guardians not sentries?

_________________Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Ok, I will sum up the last game that illustrates TERRIBLE HORRENDOUS DISBALANCES in game.I was advancing pretty well and conquered most of the galaxy. I had fractal hulls, death rays 4, xentronium armor.SUDDENLY blue player built some solar hulls. I still needed 5 more turns to research it, and had some formidable fractal hull fleet (~4.5k/5k) so I tried to hold him off.Well, this was IMPOSSIBLE.Solar hulls are so fat that I couldn't even kill one of them, and then he could just drydock them for free and build even more. They were cheaper and more efficient than fractals and fractals just died like flies.Ok, I researched solar hulls and neutronium armor. I then needed 10 more turns to build solar containment hulls. I had three black holes and started building them at once. Meanwhile he just conquered my every planet for free (I had some fleet but his solar hulls were so fast that I couldn't maneuver it and he can stack them in one place at any moment and then my fleet had no chance).Ok, 10 more turns. I finally started building solar hulls. I had like 5K INDUSTRY, but THERE WAS MINIMAL 10 TURNS TO BUILD ONE SOLAR HULL SHIP. WTF. I scheduled about 20 solar hulls in queue, most of them were to come out in 10 turns. I thought that will make a difference (though I started doubting it).

So 9 more turns passed and this is what happenedWhile I was going to solar hulls as fast as I could, he just took most of my empire (and disrupted supply lines in remaining). I marked with red circle area which was mine when he built his first solar hull. Now he conquered it all and was far ahead of my by industry/research. So even if my 20-30 scheduled hulls would come out - it's TOO LATE. He will outnumber me.But at the last turn he disrupted my neutronium supply line and no solar hull ship came out at all.That's how it ended.So, I did my best as soon as saw his solars, but it took TOO LONG, especially 10 TURNS FOR BUILDING CONTAINMENT FACILITIES and 10 TURNS BEFORE FIRST SOLAR HULL SHIP.This freaking 'MINIMUM TURNS TO BUILD' mechanic HAS TO BE REMOVED, IT RUINS GAME, TURNS IT INTO BLIND ROULETTE (WHEN SOME PLAYER JUST RUSHED TO SOLARS SOMEWHERE FAR AWAY AND - SURPRISE! - YOU LOST).Solar hulls are to be nerfed, but this 'minimum turns to build' is MUCH MORE DISASTROUS TO GAMEPLAY.

Ok, I will sum up the last game that illustrates TERRIBLE HORRENDOUS DISBALANCES in game.I was advancing pretty well and conquered most of the galaxy.

Except you had a lot of uncolonized planets in that most. Maybe that's why you didn't even have PEM at turn 150?

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I had fractal hulls, death rays 4, xentronium armor.

Shieldless crap, armor is waste of RP

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Ok, I researched solar hulls and neutronium armor. I then needed 10 more turns to build solar containment hulls. I had three black holes and started building them at once. Meanwhile he just conquered my every planet for free (I had some fleet but his solar hulls were so fast that I couldn't maneuver it and he can stack them in one place at any moment and then my fleet had no chance).Ok, 10 more turns. I finally started building solar hulls. I had like 5K INDUSTRY, but THERE WAS MINIMAL 10 TURNS TO BUILD ONE SOLAR HULL SHIP. WTF. I scheduled about 20 solar hulls in queue, most of them were to come out in 10 turns. I thought that will make a difference (though I started doubting it).So 9 more turns passed and this is what happenedWhile I was going to solar hulls as fast as I could, he just took most of my empire (and disrupted supply lines in remaining). I marked with red circle area which was mine when he built his first solar hull. Now he conquered it all and was far ahead of my by industry/research. So even if my 20-30 scheduled hulls would come out - it's TOO LATE. He will outnumber me.But at the last turn he disrupted my neutronium supply line and no solar hull ship came out at all.That's how it ended.So, I did my best as soon as saw his solars, but it took TOO LONG, especially 10 TURNS FOR BUILDING CONTAINMENT FACILITIES and 10 TURNS BEFORE FIRST SOLAR HULL SHIP.This freaking 'MINIMUM TURNS TO BUILD' mechanic HAS TO BE REMOVED, IT RUINS GAME, TURNS IT INTO BLIND ROULETTE (WHEN SOME PLAYER JUST RUSHED TO SOLARS SOMEWHERE FAR AWAY AND - SURPRISE! - YOU LOST).Solar hulls are to be nerfed, but this 'minimum turns to build' is MUCH MORE DISASTROUS TO GAMEPLAY.

See, that's why solar hulls are not totally OP, if you didn't spend all your RP on shiny lazors, maybe with better sensors you would see that black hole hive coming and kill it while it's small Or churn out some outpost and settle that empty space in middle of your empire.

See, that's why solar hulls are not totally OP, if you didn't spend all your RP on shiny lazors, maybe with better sensors you would see that black hole hive coming and kill it while it's small

Yeah, he had 30 detection strength when i was creating that shipyard. The one near you was supposed to be the reserve one in case he notices the closer one and blocks it, but nope, he never saw it before it was too late. It took me about 35 turns to bring it up because i needed to research and breed the artificial black hole and solar hull tech.

My industry was still superior to his. There was a lot of military action going on so I couldn't focus on peaceful colonisation much.

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Shieldless crap, armor is waste of RP

Well anything is ultimate crap compared to solar hulls. Solar hulls are like transcendence victory - you build some before others and you won. The MINIMUM REQUIRED TIME between discovery of Solar Hulls and actually building one is 20 FREAKING TURNS. And INDUSTRY DOESN'T HELP. Even if you had 100k industry - SAME FREAKING 20 TURNS. That means enemy will pwn you these 20 turns, taking everything for free. After these 20 turns it's over - he is vastly superior in industry and research and fleet size and you will never catch up to him.

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maybe with better sensors you would see that black hole hive coming and kill it while it's small

Game shouldn't have such overpowered features at such low price.Also, sometimes it's not possible to see some secret distant black hole with solar hulls coming. Range of scanners is limited. In practice it's really, really hard to scout all galaxy until very late game when it's already too late.

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I like turns-to-build, it makes you prepare in advance for stuff.

So how do you prepare in advance for something that can just come out of nowhere and destroy you without any effort? Again, you can't scout entire galaxy. Player may also actively prevent you from scouting. So solar hulls may easily be a surprise. And then you're already lost. The only 'solution' seems to be rushing to solar hulls itself, but then it's pure luck - you always have to choose between industry/research/growth techs and military techs. Focus on first too much - you may lose to surprise solar hulls. Focus on second - you may lose due to low industry/research. No global galaxy scouting possible, so you can only choose by some intuition, but in last game this meant a difference in 25 turns between his solar hulls and mine. I focused on industry/research/growth in hope to switch to solars fast enough after perfecting those. 25 turn difference became a death sentence. This should not happen, it's imbalance, overpowered shit, russian roulette. Everything should be counterable at least to some degree, not like 'if you weren't fast enough to do X you lost'.

And, yeah, L29ah is one freaking lucky player. As soon as something is determined by random factors (i.e. blind choosing of what to research) he somehow choose right in most cases. He didn't scout me much either - how could he know I wasn't already building solar hulls? He surely dedicated much time to research/industry/growth techs and got solar hulls just at the right moment. Again, pure luck.

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but nope, he never saw it before it was too late

so what would change if I saw it? I was researching solar hulls as top priority for a while anyway. So this difference occured much earlier, you probably switched to hulls earlier than me and that's it. No idea if it's just because you managed to research growth techs faster or if you decided to prioritize solar hulls at expense of some growth. Anyway, you didn't scout me either so you choose by intuition (luck). I choose by intuition too. You turned out to be more lucky. Still, if solar hulls weren't so overpowered I would still had a chance due to superior empire size, industry and/or research. But it's just INSTANT WIN hulls. Even 5 turn difference leads to dire consequences for empire that is behind - 5 turns of free conquest of everything. I managed to do 25 turns. But should have just give up after 5 turns. When I researched solar hulls my empire was still intact and I could won IF I would build them fast enough. But game mechanic didn't let me, it decided "suffer for 20 turns and die" outcome instead.

When I researched solar hulls my empire was still intact and I could won IF I would build them fast enough. But game mechanic didn't let me, it decided "suffer for 20 turns and die" outcome instead.

It's not just the game mechanics -- you should recognize you made some strategic mistakes and learn from them (more than just 'get solar hulls sooner'). I think it's impossible to say how this would have gone if you had done a few things differently. One thing I didn't see clearly acknowledged or pointed out yet was the riskiness in your choice to rely on a special-resource-gated parted (the Neutronium Armor) when either your supply and/or shipyard were not sufficiently removed from the front lines to be safe for the timeframe you needed. You seemed to blame the game that your ship construction got halted before completion, when that is just another strategic consideration you need to take into account. When your empire's life hangs on the thread of timely completion, don't rely on something that could be blocked if you don't have to.

Solar Hulls may be great (and due for some adjustment), but they are very far from an automatic win button.

_________________If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

No, I didn't. There was nothing I could do. I've seen this blackhole with muursh since the early game (scouted with invisible scout), I knew he is gonna make solars on it. But this black hole was behind AI territory, maybe 10-15 lanes from my borders so I couldn't rush there. So my strategy was to conquer AI quickly to capture this black hole. His solars came out when I conquered system 2 lanes away. So I wasn't quick enough, even though I did as fast as I could (conquered most of galaxy to turn 120). I started researching solar hulls too, long ago. But he somehow managed to get them earlier. In balance strategy game I would be able to somehow hold them (at least with major losses) until my own come out. But here, my fleet just died like flies to them, so I only could run away to my blackhole in hope to get solars in time. He conquered 80% of my planets meanwhile and I understood that it was too late. So, it was already too late when I started on solar hulls branches. I should have started this branch 10 turns earlier. But how the hell was I supposed to know WHEN?

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You seemed to blame the game that your ship construction got halted before completion

Nah. Even if they DID came out - he already had larger fleet of solars AND most of my planets already conquered. I would get 10 solars and 10 more the next turn, but it was already too late. They would just died to his fleet along with everything else.10 + 10 turns is insane.This mechanic MAY work in early game, but in late game everything happens too freaking fast. 20 turns is death sentence.Maybe tech tree can be added that reduces 'minimal turns to build' percentually, going to 100% reduction in the end.

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but they are very far from an automatic win button.

We played a LOT of multiplayer games, and as soon as SOMEBODY gets solars before others - it's OVER. The only game where two players had solars was when they built them at the same time. Even then, it ended really quickly. But when only one player has solars - he ALWAYS won. Even if he was far behind in industry and territory. Even if others had huge fleets but without solar hulls. So it's UNBALANCED.

It's so easy to discuss the past. "You could have done this", "you could have done that". Its's easy because EVERYTHING ALREADY HAPPENED. When I play, I'm playing in PRESENT and I can't foresee FUTURE. It's impossible to know what opponent is researching and how far away from solar hulls he stands. It's impossible to always scout his entire empire. It's impossible to disrupt solar containment on blackhole that is deep inside his territory. So even if I found out that he started building solar hull containment on his blackhole - I couldn't do anything and if my solar hulls are not yet researched I can give up right away. Every turn of delay is disastrous after his solars are built - he just takes everything for free.

So the only way to counter solar hulls is timing own research accordingly.But it's not possible because I can't see what he is researching.And when first signs of solars appear - it' TOO LATE.

The MINIMUM REQUIRED TIME between discovery of Solar Hulls and actually building one is 20 FREAKING TURNS. And INDUSTRY DOESN'T HELP. Even if you had 100k industry - SAME FREAKING 20 TURNS. That means enemy will pwn you these 20 turns, taking everything for free. After these 20 turns it's over - he is vastly superior in industry and research and fleet size and you will never catch up to him.

While I agree that afwbkbc probably could have done some things better, I still think they have a valid point here. It's a combination of things with the Solar Hull that messes up balance majorly: the ridiculously long time it takes from researching the Solar Hull until the first finally leaves the drydock (I mean, come on, 20 turns in a game that typically lasts 150-200 turns???) and the high number of internal slots, which allow you to mount so many engine parts so the ship is much too fast. Which provides you with a fleet of behemoths that are extremely sturdy, have immense firepower, limitless range (because of the limitless fuel supply effect) and are extremely fast, which means you can deploy them much more efficiently than any other forces and outmaneuver enemy forces easily.

Add our upkeep mechanic into the mix, which also favors such big expensive ships, and you get an almost invincible strike force for quite moderate costs, which can overrun an enemy so quickly that they have almost no chance to counter you, even if they are on more than equal footing with you in every other aspect. The by far most effective counter to Solar Hulls are Solar Hulls (which is already bad and needs to be fixed), but because it takes so long to get them produced, your chance of turning the tables are slim.

I've played enought test games where I got to deploy them to know how ridiculously overpowered they are. The high number of both external and internal slots, the extremely high structure, the high speed and the limitless range make it the ultimate weapon. The only other hull I use to mix into Solar Hull fleets are a few Scattered Asteroid Hull ships because of the shield bonus. That mix is absolutely lethal. If your opponent can't field the same combo, you practically walk over them with only marginal losses. It's game over by then.

The problem isn't that they are hard to counter, the problem is that they are almost impossible to counter. 20 turns is more than enough to crush an enemy to the point that even if they manage to finally get some Solar Hulls out, it's too late. I agree with afwbkbc on that assessment.

So, right now it's IMPOSSIBLE to plan strategy against solar hulls, because there are no visible signs of researching them until you see solar containment unit building - but then it's too late.So, the only possible strategy is to rush to solars yourself. But if two players rush to solar hulls as fast as they can - game will decided by PURE RANDOM - i.e. some player may have SLIGHTLY better starting conditions, so he can build solars 10 turns earlier and INSTANT-WIN THE GAME. If two players had fair starting and mid-game conditions (a really RARE case) - then they build solars at same turn and both will have some chance. But in all other cases it's insta-win bevause any other ship dies to solars as flies, you just scrap them all and get no difference. And even if you outnumber solars 10-to-1 - they will just outmaneur you by avoiding fights until enough solars are built. You can't catch solars and you can't stop their production if it's on blackhole deep inside enemy empire, and he will increase size of fleet much faster than you can because solars are too cheap. So in worst case you will be crushed by solars right away, in best case it's just a matter of time before he builds enough solar hulls and crushes you maybe 10-20 turns later.

Good game must have MORE THAN ONE strategy to win. Freeorion has one strategy - solar hulls. The first player to build solar hulls wins, thats it. PLEASE FIX.

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