leagued wrote:Do not agree with this. caricature rarely makes for a better quality product and showing desert people leading suicide bomb charges is probably going to convince the bulk of the audience that Paul is no longer the good guy.

This would be completely true to the book, though.

Was he the 'good' guy? He duped the Fremen into thinking he was their messiah so he could avenge his fathers death and take over the universe, then once he does he sends the Fremen out into that universe to kill 61 billion non-believers, they serilize 90 planets, beat 500 into submission and wiped out 40 religions.

He makes Hitler look like a pacifist.

-I don't remember any suicide bombers in the book.

-Paul is clearly written as the sympathetic protagonist of Dune. Most of what you mention is revealed in Messiah; a book that was much more intent on tearing down the hero and the hero myth. The exploration of the failure of the hero that we get in DM only works because we see Paul as the hero of the first book; its the reversal of expectations that makes Messiah as potent as it is.

-In Dune he repeatedly makes it clear that he is struggling against the Jihad. Also, Hitler killed 6 million people on a planet with a population of 5 billion so roughly 1/1000. If we use the Hundred Million planets of the Old Empire and a conservative estimate of one billion people per planet that gives us a imperial population of 100 million billion so Paul's jihad killed 90/100,000,000 = 9/10,000,000 = .0009/1000. Fractionally, Hitler makes Paul look like Buddha.

Hawat's attention was caught by a flash of sun on metal to the south, a'thopter plummeting there in a power dive, wings folded flat against its sides,its jets a golden flare against the dark silvered gray of the sky. It plungedlike an arrow toward the troop carrier which was unshielded because of thelasgun activity around it. Straight into the carrier the diving 'thopterplunged.

...

"His people scream his name as they leap into battle. The women throw theirbabies at us and hurl themselves onto our knives to open a wedge for their mento attack us. They have no . . . no . . . decency!"~Dune

While much of what I mentioned is revealed in Dune Messiah it was still known to Paul through prescience before he even met the Fremen. He made the decision to not give himself up to the Harkonnens and to seek refuge with the Fremen, knowing it would lead to the Jihad. Sure he tried to stop it after, it was too late.

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

Statistics can make any point, but we're discussing individual lives each the centre of their own universe it can not be viewed as proportional. If that was the case we should be blaming the super volcano in Yellowstone as the single most malicious event. Estimates are it took us down to about 1600 souls last time it blew more than 60,000 years ago.

Freakzilla wrote:Hawat's attention was caught by a flash of sun on metal to the south, a'thopter plummeting there in a power dive, wings folded flat against its sides,its jets a golden flare against the dark silvered gray of the sky. It plungedlike an arrow toward the troop carrier which was unshielded because of thelasgun activity around it. Straight into the carrier the diving 'thopterplunged.

...

"His people scream his name as they leap into battle. The women throw theirbabies at us and hurl themselves onto our knives to open a wedge for their mento attack us. They have no . . . no . . . decency!"~Dune

While much of what I mentioned is revealed in Dune Messiah it was still known to Paul through prescience before he even met the Fremen. He made the decision to not give himself up to the Harkonnens and to seek refuge with the Fremen, knowing it would lead to the Jihad. Sure he tried to stop it after, it was too late.

Your first citation happened before Paul had even been accepted among the Fremen, let alone after he had become their leader so it hardly makes sense to use it as an example of how Paul turned them from noble savages into suicide bombers (the original root of this branch of the discussion). And the second citation still doesn't show any examples of suicide bombers; its talking about pitched battle not terrorist-like strikes on civilian targets.

Throughout Dune Paul is actively searching for a place/time that would allow him to prevent the jihad. Its one of the main themes of the book that he's trapped by it but always looking to stop it, prevent it, or at least mitigate it. The audience is supposed to see him as the hero of the book.

inhuien wrote:Statistics can make any point, but we're discussing individual lives each the centre of their own universe it can not be viewed as proportional. If that was the case we should be blaming the super volcano in Yellowstone as the single most malicious event. Estimates are it took us down to about 1600 souls last time it blew more than 60,000 years ago.

malicious implies intent, something that volcanos distinctly lack. And is there a better way to categorize atrocities?

The Fremen were always religious fanatics, what we call now suicide bombers, before Paul meets them.

The worst thing that could happen to tem was a Hero.And I disagree with the idea that Paul made them, he and his mother just improved the weapon they found.

And there are quotes that prove Paul knows the altenative and he knows exactly what he's doing, using the tribes to get revenge and his power back.

Not a good guy, we onnly feel for him because of the tragedy that befell him, and we root for Harkonnen blood. just like,,, the Hero. not that he's a bad guy, but his drive to succeed allows him to make do with his conscience.

I wonder if it would work with the general public if a director took the pleasure of identifying yourself to the Hero and his trials, when that Hero is a spoiled and overtrained for power aristocrat.

The worst thing that could happen to tem was a Hero.And I disagree with the idea that Paul made them, he and his mother just improved the weapon they found.

And there are quotes that prove Paul knows the altenative and he knows exactly what he's doing, using the tribes to get revenge and his power back.

Not a good guy, we onnly feel for him because of the tragedy that befell him, and we root for Harkonnen blood. just like,,, the Hero. not that he's a bad guy, but his drive to succeed allows him to make do with his conscience.

I wonder if it would work with the general public if a director took the pleasure of identifying yourself to the Hero and his trials, when that Hero is a spoiled and overtrained for power aristocrat.

The Fremen are hardly suicide bombers. Maybe the Jacurutu Fremen in Harrison's miniseries, but Fremen generally are not ones to blow themselves up as our modern day Middle-Eastern terrorists do. They only kill Harkonnens, or trespassers on their territory. Their code of conduct is more like the Bedouins in Lawrence of Arabia: they don't take prisoners, and they leave no wounded for the Turks/Harkonnens.

And Paul being spoiled is a matter of perception. There is that one line where Paul finds it insulting for Mohiam to talk to his mother like a common servant, but there is hardly much evidence of Paul treating any of the servants on Caladan with contempt. He regards Mapes with more fascination and wonder rather than condescension, and he was willing to risk his life for Mapes, even though he could have just allowed her to be killed by the hunter seeker. Before he becomes the KH, he valued the lives of the people who served him over his own, and he also valued human life (unless it were a Harkonnen). Jamis was a complete asshole to him, yet Paul was still crestfallen when he killed him. That's a trait which Feyd, a more obvious example of a spoiled and overtrained aristocrat, doesn't share. Paul is inexperienced, but his valuing human life early on in the story sets him apart from the typically spoiled artistocratic character. He would never force Fremen to self-destruct in public places, since the only public place on Arrakis is the Arakeen, and that's populated with innocent Fremen.

Back on the topic on how to adapt Dune, maybe it should be adapted as an ongoing anime series like those on adult swim. It's perfect, because those anime shows stretch their material with lots of expostion filler, the action takes forever to get resolved, and each episode is brief yet gets away with covering nothing of interest! I think Dune's tone and pace would suit an ongoing half-hour anime show on adult swim very well, unless the animator decides to show Gurney and Paul getting all Japanese cartoony for no apparent reason.

'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

The Fremen are religious fanatics. They have been engineered by the Missionaria Protectiva and by the harsh conditions of life on Arrakis. This is why Paul can convince them to follow him as their religious leader. His "nice" side only works locally, but when it comes to global control, he is forced to assume to religious mantle he so much wanted to avoid.

You confuse the Atreides code of honour with being a Hero, and the Harkonnen upbringing with being the bad guy. You can be a noble born and not be a dick to servants, and still order the death of countless numbers.The Duke used the same tools as every other Great House, what do you think Thufir was doing, sending get well soon notes to the enemies of his Duke?

Paul was spoiled, and even he knows it. He doesn't cry for Jamis, he cries for the price you pay when you kill, he cries for himself.And when he becomes Muad'Dib and his cohorts attack the Emperor's forces, Gurney is shocked that Paul would be more concerned with equipment than men.Dune was written to make us root for the hero and rejoice in his victory, only to be destroyed in Messiah, forcing us to look back on what we thought was right and realizing that the motivations of the characters we took for granted were not the same as we initially thought.

(you should know by now derailing topics is what we do here ^^)

As for the movie, I think it won't work because no one will want to make him a victim, of fate, of birth and uprbringing... You'd need someone like Jan Kounen, the guy who directed Blueberry and that thing on ayahuesca, I reckon he'd have the psychedelic background to translate the spice experience, but that would make it difficult to balance with the action part.The successful director would have to show action when he means more complicated concepts, and it was hard enough to do as a book, but why not ?

As for having a "cartoon version" of it, I'm not convinced the anime syle would be true, don't get me wrong they did some cool stuff with the x-men or wolverine for example, but it had too much of that japanese feel to it.But if it had to be done, I think that would be the best bet, the media that would allow for as much creative leeway as necessary.

You make good points but I think Lotek shares my point of view, we'll have to agree to dissagree.

Paul WAS a hero to the Fremen, but we knew all along that he was using them and had the help of his mother, an adept of the Missionaria Protectiva. He does regret it throughout his years in the desert and in the end even Mohiam sees what's about to befall the universe.

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:...since the only public place on Arrakis is the Arakeen, and that's populated with innocent Fremen.

Whoa there, Fremen do NOT live in cities and Arakeen was not the only population center.

This had been the government mansion in the days of the Old Empire. Costshad been of less importance then. It had been before the Harkonnens and theirnew megalopolis of Carthag -- a cheap and brassy place some two hundredkilometers northeast across the Broken Land. Leto had been wise to choose thisplace for his seat of government. The name, Arrakeen, had a good sound, filledwith tradition. And this was a smaller city, easier to sterilize and defend.

The city people WERE used as shock troops:

He turned away, wishing he actually felt that confident. Presently, he said:"What about the city people? Are they in position yet?""Yes," Stilgar muttered.Paul looked at him. "What's eating you?""I never knew the city man could be trusted completely," Stilgar said."I was a city man myself once," Paul said.Stilgar stiffened. His face grew dark with blood. "Muad'Dib knows I did notmean --""I know what you meant, Stil. But the test of a man isn't what you thinkhe'll do. It's what he actually does. These city people have Fremen blood. It'sjust that they haven't yet learned how to escape their bondage. We'll teachthem."Stilgar nodded, spoke in a rueful tone: "The habits of a lifetime, Muad'Dib.On the Funeral Plain we learned to despise the men of the communities."Paul glanced at Gurney, saw him studying Stilgar. "Tell us, Gurney, why werethe city folk down there driven from their homes by the Sardaukar?""An old trick, my Duke. They thought to burden us with refugees.""It's been so long since guerrillas were effective that the mighty haveforgotten how to fight them," Paul said. "The Sardaukar have played into ourhands. They grabbed some city women for their sport, decorated their battlestandards with the heads of the men who objected. And they've built up a feverof hate among people who otherwise would've looked on the coming battle as nomore than a great inconvenience . . . and the possibility of exchanging one setof masters for another. The Sardaukar recruit for us, Stilgar.""The city people do seem eager," Stilgar said."Their hate is fresh and clear," Paul said. "That's why we use them as shocktroops.""The slaughter among them will be fearful," Gurney said.Stilgar nodded agreement."They were told the odds," Paul said. "They know every Sardaukar they killwill be one less for us. You see, gentlemen, they have something to die for.They've discovered they're a people. They're awakening."

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

It's funny because a search of the word "fanatics" (plural) in Dune results in references to the Sardaukar."the soldier-fanatics of the Emperor".

But "fanatic" gets more various results.

If we look at the definition of the term:

fa·nat·ic

NounA person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, esp. for an extreme religious or political cause.AdjectiveFilled with or expressing excessive zeal.

He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead--in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: "Hello, Grandfather." The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him. The other path held long patches of grey obscurity except for peaks of violence. He had seen a warrior religion there, a fire spreading across the universe with the Atreides green and black banner waving at the head of fanatic legions drunk on spice liquor. Gurney Halleck and a few others of his father's men--a pitiful few--were among them, all marked by the hawk symbol from the shrine of his father's skull. "I can't go that way," he muttered. "That's what the old witches of your schools really want." "I don't understand you, Paul," his mother said.

(that's at the end of Book One)

And again he remembered the vision of fanatic legions following the green and black banner of the Atreides, pillaging and burning across the universe in the name of their prophet Muad'Dib. That must not happen, he told himself

Paul, hearing these words, realized that he had plunged once more into the abyss . . . blind time. There was no past occupying the future in his mind . . . except . . . except . . . he could still sense the green and black Atreides banner waving . . . somewhere ahead . . . still see the jihad's bloody swords and fanatic legions.

The thought was both reassuring and frustrating. Somewhere ahead of him on this path, the fanatic hordes cut their gory path across the universe in his name. The green and black Atreides banner would become a symbol of terror

And here's what Jessica makes of the Fremen

Her thoughts turned to Liet-Kynes, the Emperor's planetary ecologist, the man who had gone native--and she wondered at him. This was a dream to capture men's souls, and she could sense the hand of the ecologist in it. This was a dream for which men would die willingly. It was another of the essential ingredients that she felt her son needed; people with a goal. Such people would be easy to imbue with fervor and fanaticism. They could be wielded like a sword to win back Paul's place for him.

When Paul defeats Jamis, he cries because his mother acts to prevent him from thinking himself superior (which implies that it could happen)

Now is the terrible moment, she thought. He has killed a man in clear superiority of mind and muscle. He must not grow to enjoy such a victory. She forced herself through the last of the troop and into a small open space where two bearded Fremen were helping Paul into his stillsuit. Jessica stared at her son. Paul's eyes were bright. He breathed"Him against Jamis and not a mark on him," one of the men muttered. Chani stood at one side, her eyes focused on Paul. Jessica saw the girl's excitement, the admiration in the elfin face. It must be done now and swiftly, Jessica thought. She compressed ultimate scorn into her voice and manner, said: "Well-l-l, now--how does it feel to be a killer?" Paul stiffened as though he had been struck. He met his mother's cold glare and his face darkened with a rush of blood. Involuntarily he glanced toward the place on the cavern floor where Jamis had lain.

Feyd is Paul without the Atreides code, but that code is not Arthurian chivalry or something, it's pragmatism pushed to its limits. The Harkonnen use force and fear, the Atreides use love and faith, but they want the same thing, power. That's what Paul was trained for, to crave power. Everything he does has a purpose, even saving Mapes.

leagued wrote:it hardly makes sense to use it as an example of how Paul turned them from noble savages into suicide bombers (the original root of this branch of the discussion)

Not quite. This depiction would be artistic license. There is quite a bit of purposeful misdirection in the book--you're not a fool for sticking to the image of Paul as a protagonist, it's the writer playing a trick on you. My desire would be to perform the same trick in the movie--as done in Starship Troopers--to get the audience to root for the bad guys.

I'd probably hesitate to depict the Fremen flying planes (or thopters) into things, though. It's one thing to depict the Fremen as religious fanatics, quite another to reference a widely-held trauma, even though it would be true to the book.

Another thing: The movie would need good-looking ornithopters. I've yet to see them imagined in a way that does justice to the book.

Naïve mind wrote:Not quite. This depiction would be artistic license. There is quite a bit of purposeful misdirection in the book--you're not a fool for sticking to the image of Paul as a protagonist, it's the writer playing a trick on you. My desire would be to perform the same trick in the movie--as done in Starship Troopers--to get the audience to root for the bad guys.

Glad that I'm not a fool I think that Dune is written with the Atreides mystique very much front and center. In later books the curtain is pulled back and we see inside it more, but in Dune you are supposed to see Paul as the noble hero, who serves the people he rules over. So the question is whether a new filmed version should portray him as the hero or as a man who consciously manipulates the pool of religious fanatics he finds ready made. Both aspects should be touched on, to varying degrees, but I do still personally believe that Paul was doing everything in his ability to mitigate the evil of the Jihad from the first moment he knows about it- he just is trapped. In Children he says that he was incapable of doing evil if the evil were known beforehand (Sorry, again without my books so I don't have the quote but its when Paul and Leto are discussing the Golden Path). To me that always meant that Paul would not knowingly do what he saw as evil, even for the sake of the Golden Path. The Atreides mystique is partially a construction and propaganda and Duke Leto was probably the coldest, most pragmatic character in the entire Chronicle, but its also built on the actual code of honor that the Atreides instilled in themselves.In a longer format you could touch on a lot more differing viewpoints to expound some of these things- what does Paul look like to the Fremen? To Stilgar? To the Harkonnens- both on Geidi Prime and in Carthag and Arrakeen? What about within the Emperor's court? You could do an entire episode going from place to place and exploring this while Paul is left entirely off-screen.Anyway... that is a fine looking thopter.

Naïve mind wrote:Not quite. This depiction would be artistic license. There is quite a bit of purposeful misdirection in the book--you're not a fool for sticking to the image of Paul as a protagonist, it's the writer playing a trick on you. My desire would be to perform the same trick in the movie--as done in Starship Troopers--to get the audience to root for the bad guys.

Glad that I'm not a fool I think that Dune is written with the Atreides mystique very much front and center. In later books the curtain is pulled back and we see inside it more, but in Dune you are supposed to see Paul as the noble hero, who serves the people he rules over. So the question is whether a new filmed version should portray him as the hero or as a man who consciously manipulates the pool of religious fanatics he finds ready made.

The latter IS what the book says. Before they even move to Arrakis, Mohaim tells Jessica the MP has prepared the natives:

Jessica turned away, looked out the window at the gathering darkness. "Is itreally that terrible, this planet of Arrakis?""Bad enough, but not all bad. The Missionaria Protectiva has been in thereand softened it up somewhat."

Both aspects should be touched on, to varying degrees, but I do still personally believe that Paul was doing everything in his ability to mitigate the evil of the Jihad from the first moment he knows about it- he just is trapped.

Of course he did, but he still chose that path knowing it would lead to the Jihad.

In Children he says that he was incapable of doing evil if the evil were known beforehand (Sorry, again without my books so I don't have the quote but its when Paul and Leto are discussing the Golden Path). To me that always meant that Paul would not knowingly do what he saw as evil, even for the sake of the Golden Path.

Paul didn't see the Golden Path, at least not human extinction. It wasn't evil to Paul because he was born and raised a noble, bred and trained to seek and hold power. I don't think either of us are saying that Paul was trying to be evil.

The Atreides mystique is partially a construction and propaganda and Duke Leto was probably the coldest, most pragmatic character in the entire Chronicle, but its also built on the actual code of honor that the Atreides instilled in themselves.

Yes.

In a longer format you could touch on a lot more differing viewpoints to expound some of these things- what does Paul look like to the Fremen? To Stilgar? To the Harkonnens- both on Geidi Prime and in Carthag and Arrakeen? What about within the Emperor's court? You could do an entire episode going from place to place and exploring this while Paul is left entirely off-screen.

Next time you read it try keeping a non-Atreides POV in mind.

Anyway... that is a fine looking thopter.

That's one of the best I've seen. I always imagine them looking more like insects than birds.

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

Naïve mind wrote:Not quite. This depiction would be artistic license. There is quite a bit of purposeful misdirection in the book--you're not a fool for sticking to the image of Paul as a protagonist, it's the writer playing a trick on you. My desire would be to perform the same trick in the movie--as done in Starship Troopers--to get the audience to root for the bad guys.

Glad that I'm not a fool I think that Dune is written with the Atreides mystique very much front and center. In later books the curtain is pulled back and we see inside it more, but in Dune you are supposed to see Paul as the noble hero, who serves the people he rules over. So the question is whether a new filmed version should portray him as the hero or as a man who consciously manipulates the pool of religious fanatics he finds ready made.

The latter IS what the book says. Before they even move to Arrakis, Mohaim tells Jessica the MP has prepared the natives:

Jessica turned away, looked out the window at the gathering darkness. "Is itreally that terrible, this planet of Arrakis?""Bad enough, but not all bad. The Missionaria Protectiva has been in thereand softened it up somewhat."

That quote only says what has been established before they go to Dune; it in no way speaks to the decisions that Paul makes once on Dune. It doesn't speak to his actions at all.

Both aspects should be touched on, to varying degrees, but I do still personally believe that Paul was doing everything in his ability to mitigate the evil of the Jihad from the first moment he knows about it- he just is trapped.

Of course he did, but he still chose that path knowing it would lead to the Jihad.

Was there ever any choice that he did have? He's trapped by his Terrible Purpose before he even understands that he is prescient. And from the time of his first visions in the desert he's already trapped and can't find a way out.

In Children he says that he was incapable of doing evil if the evil were known beforehand (Sorry, again without my books so I don't have the quote but its when Paul and Leto are discussing the Golden Path). To me that always meant that Paul would not knowingly do what he saw as evil, even for the sake of the Golden Path.

Paul didn't see the Golden Path, at least not human extinction. It wasn't evil to Paul because he was born and raised a noble, bred and trained to seek and hold power. I don't think either of us are saying that Paul was trying to be evil.

I think Paul saw the steps required for the Golden Path, ie the transformation, but not the product of it, ie the scattering and that it was the requirement for human survival. I think to him it was just a path of ultimate, continued power- and he refused it because of the evil he saw along that path. He saw the peace of the Tyrant but not the scattering afterward. How does his tossing aside all that power to become the Preacher fit with the image of him being just an aristocrat raised to seize and hold onto power?

I could never do an evil act which was known before the act.The quote I referenced earlier.

Just once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader.

Paul is a failure- he fought the Jihad, he did everything he could to serve his people, and he did not do it out of selfish interests. Even the one time he failed to live to his values was a failure out of his love for Chani.

The Atreides mystique is partially a construction and propaganda and Duke Leto was probably the coldest, most pragmatic character in the entire Chronicle, but its also built on the actual code of honor that the Atreides instilled in themselves.

Yes.

In a longer format you could touch on a lot more differing viewpoints to expound some of these things- what does Paul look like to the Fremen? To Stilgar? To the Harkonnens- both on Geidi Prime and in Carthag and Arrakeen? What about within the Emperor's court? You could do an entire episode going from place to place and exploring this while Paul is left entirely off-screen.

Next time you read it try keeping a non-Atreides POV in mind.

Anyway... that is a fine looking thopter.

That's one of the best I've seen. I always imagine them looking more like insects than birds.

Shrug; I always thought more bird myself, but anything that would actually capture some wing movements would be a massive improvement over what we've gotten so far on film.

Naïve mind wrote:Not quite. This depiction would be artistic license. There is quite a bit of purposeful misdirection in the book--you're not a fool for sticking to the image of Paul as a protagonist, it's the writer playing a trick on you. My desire would be to perform the same trick in the movie--as done in Starship Troopers--to get the audience to root for the bad guys.

Glad that I'm not a fool I think that Dune is written with the Atreides mystique very much front and center. In later books the curtain is pulled back and we see inside it more, but in Dune you are supposed to see Paul as the noble hero, who serves the people he rules over. So the question is whether a new filmed version should portray him as the hero or as a man who consciously manipulates the pool of religious fanatics he finds ready made.

The latter IS what the book says. Before they even move to Arrakis, Mohaim tells Jessica the MP has prepared the natives:

Jessica turned away, looked out the window at the gathering darkness. "Is itreally that terrible, this planet of Arrakis?""Bad enough, but not all bad. The Missionaria Protectiva has been in thereand softened it up somewhat."

That quote only says what has been established before they go to Dune; it in no way speaks to the decisions that Paul makes once on Dune. It doesn't speak to his actions at all.

My point was that Mohiam tells Jessica that the MP has been there, a way is prepared. I believe Lotek already quoted the moment when Paul chose the path of the Jihad in the stiltent with Jessica.

Both aspects should be touched on, to varying degrees, but I do still personally believe that Paul was doing everything in his ability to mitigate the evil of the Jihad from the first moment he knows about it- he just is trapped.

Of course he did, but he still chose that path knowing it would lead to the Jihad.

Was there ever any choice that he did have? He's trapped by his Terrible Purpose before he even understands that he is prescient. And from the time of his first visions in the desert he's already trapped and can't find a way out.

In Children he says that he was incapable of doing evil if the evil were known beforehand (Sorry, again without my books so I don't have the quote but its when Paul and Leto are discussing the Golden Path). To me that always meant that Paul would not knowingly do what he saw as evil, even for the sake of the Golden Path.

Paul didn't see the Golden Path, at least not human extinction. It wasn't evil to Paul because he was born and raised a noble, bred and trained to seek and hold power. I don't think either of us are saying that Paul was trying to be evil.

I think Paul saw the steps required for the Golden Path, ie the transformation, but not the product of it, ie the scattering and that it was the requirement for human survival. I think to him it was just a path of ultimate, continued power- and he refused it because of the evil he saw along that path. He saw the peace of the Tyrant but not the scattering afterward. How does his tossing aside all that power to become the Preacher fit with the image of him being just an aristocrat raised to seize and hold onto power?

I could never do an evil act which was known before the act.The quote I referenced earlier.

He didn't see the possible extinction of humanity. Therefor the transformation would have served only to extend his life. He could have seen the need for The Scattering but he still wouldn't have been humanity's savior, in his own mind. It would just be a cruel lesson.

Just once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader.

Paul is a failure- he fought the Jihad, he did everything he could to serve his people, and he did not do it out of selfish interests. Even the one time he failed to live to his values was a failure out of his love for Chani.

He did it to save Chani's life because he wanted to be with her.

The Atreides mystique is partially a construction and propaganda and Duke Leto was probably the coldest, most pragmatic character in the entire Chronicle, but its also built on the actual code of honor that the Atreides instilled in themselves.

Yes.

In a longer format you could touch on a lot more differing viewpoints to expound some of these things- what does Paul look like to the Fremen? To Stilgar? To the Harkonnens- both on Geidi Prime and in Carthag and Arrakeen? What about within the Emperor's court? You could do an entire episode going from place to place and exploring this while Paul is left entirely off-screen.

Next time you read it try keeping a non-Atreides POV in mind.

Anyway... that is a fine looking thopter.

That's one of the best I've seen. I always imagine them looking more like insects than birds.

Shrug; I always thought more bird myself, but anything that would actually capture some wing movements would be a massive improvement over what we've gotten so far on film.

I don't see why you couldn't do both.

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

I must say that the fact that Paul is the Hero for most first readers of Dune is quite a good point though.It's easy to forget that I felt exactly the same way before my illusions were shattered by Messiah. And then I started getting what Frank was trying to say, or at least what I understood from it.I wonder how the typical moviegoer would react to that.

I can't think of any movie series that would have done that, at least for the main character (or without a final reedeem)I'm not sure where this is going but I'm sure someone must

And I saw Paul as the Hero too (when I was 13). Dune Messiah does make him look like almost an antihero, but even without that it was obvious to me that in Dune he was manipulating the savage's religion to achieve his own goals. Maybe because I was having religion forced on me at the time.

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman