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And why? Qarak was even younger when he drank Alexander dry. Tremere was not that older when he wiped out the Salubri and beated the Tzimisce,the Gangrel and the Nosferatu in the Omen war. John Dee was not much older when he became the Pontifex of and started outsmarting Mithras himself. Caius had 200 years when he staked the mighty Antonius and left him to the sun. Regina Blake was 18 years old when she beated Kemintiri. Lucinde had 250 years when she outsmarted Kemintiri, Gratiano had 200 years when he outsmarted most elders and methuselah of Castel d'Ombro. Cock Robin was less than 300 years old when he destroyed the plots of the Methuselah Trajan, Al-Ashrad was not even a vampire when he ambushed and torched the favourite childe of Haqim.

It's really not that strange.

I won't discuss Chicago's history here (although I think you exaggerate some points, for example Lodin did not destroy the Anarch Movement in the U.S. he helped strike a tremendous blow against them but by your own quotes it's clear the Anarch Movement was crippled but not defeated) but your assessment of the events above is incomplete and cast in a way to make things look different than how they are explained in the books.

1. Qarak was able to defeat Alexander only after he diablerized his own sire to increase his generation AND agreed to a pact with a superpowerful spirit. Before these things happened Alexander just swatted him around. Only with the power of the land itself he was able to match Alexander and ultimately defeat him.

2. As much as I love Tremere (since Ars Magica I might add) he did not "wipe out" the Salubri. What happened is way more complex and involves Saulot's meddling. As for the Omen War, Tremere did not "defeat" the Tzimisce, Gangrel, and Nosferatu (and the Order of Hermes if you want to be complete). Those clans never acted together against the Tremere. The Tzimisce were the ones most involved in the fighting and even them did not work together against the usurpers and kept fighting against each others and other clans (like the Ventrue) as well. Even so the Tremere just "survived" the Omen War (which was no small feat I admit) and were eventually forced to abandon their ancestral chantry of Coeris for the more secure Vienna's Chantry.

3. John Dee did not oust Mithras though. And eventually Mithras kept his power and title.

4. Caius was acting with the support of Michael himself.

5. Gratiano was the one who got outsmarted by Lasombra himself.

6. Al-Ashrad did not "ambush" Haqim's favorite childe he just destroyed him and several others while he was a living mage (probably an archmage). He then QUARRELLED with Haqim himself until Ur-Shulgi explained what really happened (Haqim's childe and his cronies had tried to kill the human mage out of jealousy and Al-Ashrad was forced to defend himself) and was ordered to embrace him by the antediluvian.

Comment

1. Lodin's stats shouldn't be a pure indicator of things because 1st Edition Chicago by Night has been criticized hundreds of times as giving NPCs massively inflated stats. As we've seen with Chicago by Night 5E, a lot of the NPCs have had their power levels reduced and made more managable.

I don't think Lodin needed a Politics of 6 even if I am very much of the mind that I think Lodin should have a 4 or 5 there..

2. I think Lodin is meant to represent a kind of "End Boss" for a coterie of PCs/adventuring party to have a threat. Modius was created to be a kind of "Early Boss" for player characters that they could theoretically deal with at their leisure.

Lodin is meant to be an opponent who, unlike Helena or other Ancients, the PCs should BELIEVABLY be able to kill even if it's very hard.

3. My opinion on Lodin is he's meant to be a mixture of capable but not flawless. Lodin's history implies a guy who is not quite the "perfect supernatural predator" that someone like Lucita or Marcus Vitel is. He's got flaws like racism, overwhelming arrogance, and casual cruelty plus he's every bit as overwhelmed by his primogen as the Neonate PCs are by him.

4. Lodin is actually meant to be a fairly weak Prince pound per pound in terms of the Camarilla because he's only about a century old and that's a "young" Prince by the terms of the Pre-Gehenna War/Beckoning Camarilla.

La Croix in Bloodlines was two hundred years old and barely able to hold his position.

5. Neither Lodin or Jackson are going to fight the PCs unless they have been ambushed. They both have their Sheriffs for doing that.

Comment

All the number crunching is interesting, but some of you are forgetting something. These are two NPCs. So, the one who wins is the one the Storyteller wants to win. I doubt most Storytellers would worry about the math or bother with rolling dice for such as fight. Why go to that level of trouble? The Storyteller might have it happen where the PCs witness the fight and can throw in with one side or the other. Otherwise, who wins is entirely depends on who the Storyteller wants to win.

1 like

Comment

La Croix in Bloodlines was two hundred years old and barely able to hold his position.

In fairness, LaCroix was a baby-faced, two-bit, tantrum-throwing brat who probably wasn't made prince of an Anarch- and Wan Kuei-beleaguered city, even one as important as L.A., because he'd endeared himself to the right people. I'd rate Lodin the more capable prince.

Childe of Anya Krylova (also the sire of St. Petersburg's Nikolai: he mentioned being in Napoleon's army, so I figure he was Embraced during the invasion of Russia)
Childe of Lady Justania
Childe of Gaius Fabricius (the temperamental methuselah who cannot let go of his petty grudge against Demetrius)
Childe of Alexander

In fairness, LaCroix was a baby-faced, two-bit, tantrum-throwing brat who probably wasn't made prince of an Anarch- and Wan Kuei-beleaguered city, even one as important as L.A., because he'd endeared himself to the right people. I'd rate Lodin the more capable prince.

Though LaCroix was still such an awesome Ventrue.

I think LaCroix was aware that being made Praxis of LA by a Uriah Gambit where he was being sent to die. I have a similar feeling about Vannever Thomas being put to replace him.

Vannever kept raising a stink about getting his city back and the Camarilla "Rewarded him" with LA.

It's just Vannever is smart enough to actually pull it off.....possibly.

Comment

[your assessment of the events above is incomplete and cast in a way to make things look different than how they are explained in the books.

1. Qarak was able to defeat Alexander only after he diablerized his own sire to increase his generation AND agreed to a pact with a superpowerful spirit. Before these things happened Alexander just swatted him around. Only with the power of the land itself he was able to match Alexander and ultimately defeat him.

Aajav was 7 years old when he was diablerized and he had just 7 discipline dot, and he was a 7th gen. Telyavel help was obtained thanks to the spell of a Telyavelic Tremere named Deverra, a 209 years old Tremere.
So it doesn't change a bit. A less than 7 years old Gangrel, with the help of a 209 years old Tremere, crushed a 1900 years old 4th gen Ventrue. So it's even worse than I described.

2. As much as I love Tremere (since Ars Magica I might add) he did not "wipe out" the Salubri. What happened is way more complex and involves Saulot's meddling.

I do not recall any involvment of Saulot in the Salubri's purge. The only role of Saulot was luring the Tremere to the place that would have become Ceoris. There are no source that says that Saulot actually helped in the Pogrom. Besides Etrius, Tremere and their followers slew plenty of Methuselah in thei early days.

Transylvania By Night 126

Etrius assisted T emere in his research, miraculously
uncovering the resting places of several of these sleeping
ancients. In a series of adventures, Tremere and his disciples
attacked and slew several resting Methuselahs, ancient Cainites
that had existed since the world was young. In this manner,
the fledgling vampires became close to Caine, and their newly
developed blood magic increased in potency.

As for the Omen War, Tremere did not "defeat" the Tzimisce, Gangrel, and Nosferatu Those clans never acted together against the Tremere. The Tzimisce were the ones most involved in the fighting and even them did not work together against the usurpers and kept fighting against each others and other clans (like the Ventrue) as well.

Mmmmh...that's really not what I reacall.

Trasylvania by Night p 125.

The Tzimisce soon discovered that the hated Tremere
had become Cainites. The Fiends allied with the Gangrel and
Nosferatu, fearing that the wizards would move to gain complete
control of Transylvania, and outraged that mere humans
dared steal the Embrace rather than earn it. Together they
attacked House Tremere's Transylvanian chantries, determined
to destroy them. Magic was becoming unstable and
undependable. Chantries that had thrown off attacks with
ease now fell before the flesh crafted servants of the Tzimisce.
As more and more covenants disappeared, the few survivors
fled to the fastness of Ceoris - their one fortified chantry (...)
With the internal disputes put aside, if not solved, Etrius
left with T remere to try to discover more about Cainite
society. The magi within Ceoris, alone and under siege, turned
their attention to war with the Tzimisce. Frantically searching
for some way to protect the chantry, Goratrix sent out suicide
squads to capture Tzimisce, Gangrel and Nosferatu. His research
was again fruitful. He learned how to craft a new type
of creature from the captive Cain i tes after feverish experimentation.
The tide of war began co turn after the unleashing of
Goratrix's creations- the Gargoyles

Guide to the low clans page 34

about the Gangrel

"By the time the priests and koldun were able to move their voivodes to action,
however, things had gon from bad to worse. Some fo the wizards had stolen the gift of the "dead water"
and become vampires themselves. Nor did they intend to be displaced without a fight.Thus the Omen War was joined.Although the Gangrel continue to serve as courageous foot soldiers, scouts,
and generals in the Omen War, they've received precious little satisfaction from
either their Tremere enemies or their Tzimisce "allies". Indeed, the Tremere have captured
some of the Gangrel sent against them, mostly scouts, and usedtheir very flesh and blood to creat yet a new abomination - the so-called Gargoyles , vicious creatures whose fury and bravery the Gangrel might admire if the weren't so plainly bred to servility

Guide to the low clans page 48

"The Omen War

Knights of St. Ladre and their imitators excluded few Nosfeatu are warriors by birth or inclination. While the Eastern European Nosferatuo have aided the Tzimisce campagni against the Tremere in haphazard fashion, they haven't been front-line participants in the Omen War. Indeed, for many years they refused to believe Tzimisce assertions that the Gargoyles were actually created from Nosferatu bones and souls; most assumed the voivodes had invendet the story in order to enlist their services. However, at the beginning of this century, Velya the Flayer and his young protegé Myca Vykos provided supposedly incontrovertible proof to Berchta the Iron Nosed, ancestress of a number of Germanic and Slavic Nosferatu. As a result much of the clan has now made the Tremere a top intelligence priority - not just in Eastern Europe, but in the west as well."

Clanbook Gangrel

The Tremere decided they needed muscle. The Tzimisce
had cannon-fodder childer, war ghouls and horrendously
misshapen servants at their beck and call, and the Tremere
had almost nothing. So they captured unfortunate Kindred
and experimented on them. I don’t know what other clans
they captured, or what they did to them, except that they
captured and tormented dozens of Gangrel, and the end
result was the Gargoyle bloodline. They made Gangrel into
those mindless slaves. That didn’t sit well at all with the
Gangrel who found out about it. Before long whole prides
of us showed up at the drawbridges of ancient Tzimisce
castles as de facto allies, offering our services as warriors
in return for a chance to take revenge and rescue our lost
broodmates and childer. The Tzimisce seemed happy for
the help; some genuinely needed assistance against the
Tremere, while others liked the idea of other Cainites
doing their dirty work. The fighting went on for more
than a hundred years; we rescued any Gargoyles we could,
and killed them or set them free. The alliance with the
Tzimisce ebbed with time, and in the mid-13th century
just about everything came to a pause in Eastern Europe

(and the Order of Hermes if you want to be complete).

Well at the end of the Massasa War less than 100 Hermetics survived, while the Clan Tremere flourished.

Even so the Tremere just "survived" the Omen War (which was no small feat I admit)

You should prove this statement. The Tremere became one of the mightiest clan in the World. They became top players is England, France, Austria and Germany. And after that they were in position to become the second strongest clan in the Camarilla after the Ventrue. Survived is quite...an euphemism.

and were eventually forced to abandon their ancestral chantry of Coeris for the more secure Vienna's Chantry.

This was not caused by the Omen war but by the Gargoyle Revolt lead by Virstania and by Goratrix going rogue, Etrius was afraid that with the information they had about the internal defence of Ceoris the fortress was not safe anymore (House of Hermes p.29).

3. John Dee did not oust Mithras though. And eventually Mithras kept his power and title.

I didn't said "oust", I said "outsmarting".

4. Caius was acting with the support of Michael himself.

No, he was acting with the consent of Michael, not with his material aid. The only role Michael had was giving his ok to the conspirators. Caius persuaded Michael that Antonius had to go, and Michael and the Dragon in the end had to comply. But they didn't do anything to help, and it wasn't their idea. It was all Caius doing.

Costantinople by Night p 16

On a terrible night in A.D. 796, Michael and the Dracon
met with their childer and those Ventrue who opposed Iconoclasm.
Seeing no other alternative, the Methuselahs sanctioned
the destruction of their lover Antonius. The deed was carried
out by the ambitious Caius, the Ventrue Methuselah’s own
childe. For a few decades, order seemed restored as Caius took
his sire’s place and Constantinople returned to prosperity, but
Antonius’ murder could not be forgotten so easily.

page 26.

In A.D. 796, Michael and the Dracon called the secret
Fourth Council to resolve the issue of Iconoclasm. Michael
received the Nosferatu Malachite as a scion family of his Toreador,
but most of the council concerned itself with the fate
of Antonius. Septima and Caius, attending covertly, proposed
a fi nal solution to the problem: the destruction of their sire.
Michael and the Dracon were reluctant to eliminate their
companion, but the younger Ventrue argued that no other
resolution was possible; the division between Antonius and the
Dracon was too great. The Methuselahs finally agreed and Caius
staked Antonius before dawn one December morning.

5. Gratiano was the one who got outsmarted by Lasombra himself.

I didn't said Gratiano outsmarted Lasombra, I said he outsmarted the elders and the Methuselahs of Clan Lasombra. And Motano (exiled), Tepelit (dead) and Khanom Mehr (dead) would agree.

6. Al-Ashrad did not "ambush" Haqim's favorite childe he just destroyed him and several others while he was a living mage.

eemh...Al-Ashrad did ambushed his assailants, by turning their own ambush against them.

Children of the Night page 88

"It came to pass that some of the Children of Haqim resented the acceptance of a mortal man into their ranks and they plotted the downfall of Al-Ashrad. But the Amr's eyes and ears were many in those nights, and he prepared well for the treacherous Children. When the conspirators came for him, Al-Ashrad was ready. He slew the foremost with a blazing arrow from the Bow of the Sun. "

Comment

CTPhipps Sierra Van Burrace is the perfect non-stereotype Sabbat character. The Sabbat has always had vampires involved in influencing mortal affairs and it makes sense that Lasombra that fit in this area of expertize would be the kind to defect to the Camerilla.

After all, currently the Camerila is an elitist society that wants to know what any potential new member brings to the sect. If you already have existing mortal networks and wealth then its a much easier sell. And in our modern global age, a company or organization in any part of the world can have connections to the rest of the world so a vampire's influence can have a deceptively extensive reach.

Only the shovel heads are truly mindlessly violent in the Sabbat. Theres plenty of room for "polite" debate and stubble political backstabbing in the Sabbat. I always thought that was the most ironic aspect of the Sabbat. Despite how hard they tried to be different, a part of them was deep down inside just a mirrored reflection the Camarilla. Two sects mired in the Jihad, full of their own BS and controlled by elders none the less.

Now, the issue of Lasombra NPC not reflecting this reality is more an issue in writing depth than a reflection on the clan. Of course, maybe I'm bias and just love the Dark Age Lasombra so much I confused them with the Sabbat Lasombra. lol

Comment

And why? Qarak was even younger when he drank Alexander dry. Tremere was not that older when he wiped out the Salubri and beated the Tzimisce,the Gangrel and the Nosferatu in the Omen war. John Dee was not much older when he became the Pontifex of and started outsmarting Mithras himself. Caius had 200 years when he staked the mighty Antonius and left him to the sun. Regina Blake was 18 years old when she beated Kemintiri. Lucinde had 250 years when she outsmarted Kemintiri, Gratiano had 200 years when he outsmarted most elders and methuselah of Castel d'Ombro. Cock Robin was less than 300 years old when he destroyed the plots of the Methuselah Trajan, Al-Ashrad was not even a vampire when he ambushed and torched the favourite childe of Haqim.

It's really not that strange.

Both statements, the one above and the one it was referring to, seem to be oversimplifications. It would be improbable to think that a younger, less potent cainite would be the bigger political mastermind compared to a methuselah several times his age, but not impossible.
On the other hand, these examples you give, seem to be comparing apples and oranges. House Tremere managed to survive the attacks of (a major part of the) Tzimisce of Transylvania, which were allied with members of Clan Nosferatu and Gangrel (afaik, there is never any indication given concerning the scope of both Clans involvements, not a single Nosferatu or Gangrel of TbN is stated as heavily involved in the Omen war) and still lost all of their chantries outside of Ceoris. House Tremere managed to (almost) wipe out Clan Salubri, a relatively small and peaceful Clan (not counting the Warriors, which were still few) with not that many powerful allies (outside of the Middle East).

But the important question is - what does that have to do with Lodins power compared to that of Methuselahs?

I'd bring forward the same argument concerning Gratianos so-called "outsmarting". It's been years since I read the Lasombra Novel Trilogy but as far as I recall there is not that much evidence (if any) what actually happened in the Castel d'Ombro prior to [Lasombra]s (so called) Diablerie. So we can't really say what did or did not happen there. And even if we could: How does that help us with Lodins stats?

Comment

CTPhipps Sierra Van Burrace is the perfect non-stereotype Sabbat character. The Sabbat has always had vampires involved in influencing mortal affairs and it makes sense that Lasombra that fit in this area of expertize would be the kind to defect to the Camerilla.

After all, currently the Camerila is an elitist society that wants to know what any potential new member brings to the sect. If you already have existing mortal networks and wealth then its a much easier sell. And in our modern global age, a company or organization in any part of the world can have connections to the rest of the world so a vampire's influence can have a deceptively extensive reach.

Only the shovel heads are truly mindlessly violent in the Sabbat. Theres plenty of room for "polite" debate and stubble political backstabbing in the Sabbat. I always thought that was the most ironic aspect of the Sabbat. Despite how hard they tried to be different, a part of them was deep down inside just a mirrored reflection the Camarilla. Two sects mired in the Jihad, full of their own BS and controlled by elders none the less.

Now, the issue of Lasombra NPC not reflecting this reality is more an issue in writing depth than a reflection on the clan. Of course, maybe I'm bias and just love the Dark Age Lasombra so much I confused them with the Sabbat Lasombra. lol

Everyone's Sabbat is different. This is because the Sabbat has always been somewhat ill-defined and has gone through numerous retcons over the years. The Sabbat of 1st Edition is not the Sabbat of 2nd Edition and not the Sabbat of Revised or even V20 (which is usually very good at reconciling traditions). I was re-reading Clan Novel: Tzimisce thanks to getting a review copy from Crossroad Press for its upcoming re-release and I remember how I felt reading it when I was eighteen.

Disappointed.

The masterminds of the Sabbat were treated as a bunch of drunken frat boys beating and yelling at one another. It was a similar feeling I got from the handling of the Anarchs in La By Night. They were not the alien eldritch evils I wanted from my Sabbat.

So they weren't.

My current canonical (to my games) Sabbat are a failed sect. The Sabbat was meant to be the perfect Kindred society and Utopian schemers but it has collapsed and is doomed. The reason being the Sabbat had been held up for centuries by a handful of geniuses and Dark Gods while the majority were just Low Humanity psycopaths verging on wassail. The death of the Sabbat was ashured by it eating itself.

But here's the thing...that may be the best thing that ever happened to it.

Again, being the puppet of a Primogen council with Critia (5th gen, 2500 years old, Status 7), Inyanga (6th gen 1600 years old), Maria (5th gen 800 years old), Procet (6th gen +800 years old), Khalid (6th gen 750 years old), Nicolai (6th gen, 650 years old) is not really a point of demerit.

Besides, Lodin became the puppet only AFTER the rise of Maldavis.
Before that, he didn't cared about them much, that's the reason that pushed Khalid, Annabelle and Inyanga to throw their lot behind Maldavis.

So, what you're claiming is that Lodin is simultaneously the political equal of Mithras or Vitel but, at the same time, incapable of not being a puppet to vampires who'd be as easily controlled by these two Methuselahs as they are controlled by Helena and Menele?

Yeah, like Alexander who got ousted from a childe he could not control, Antonius who got staked and killed by an idiot child who plotted with a smarter one, Mithras who had the Duchess and the Duke of Amber (and even Marcus Verus turned rogue is not that bad) or his nephew Valerius, even more incompetent.
Being a great cainite doesn't mean your legacy will not be rebellious or dumb as stones.

True but your choice of progeny definitely reflects on your own capabilities. In this case, Lodin picked out Drummond because he thought his company's success was due to him without being able to tell it was insolvent and propped only by illegal activities; it doesn't speak well of Lodin he wasn't able to tell. It's not even the only instance of Lodin selecting progeny by erroneously assuming they were as competent as appearances indicated (Schumpeter and Joseph)

Against this, I'd point out that Caius wasn't an idiot, just overwhelmed by Michael's irresistibleness. Verus didn't leave Chester until after Mithras had vanished and, even then, he wasn't working against his sire to whom he had been loyal for 2000 years. Valerius was not Mithras's child (or even his nephew as far as I know) and he wasn't incompetent; he was just more interested in opening London to other clans than Mithras was.
Although I do agree on Alexander, I do have a really low opinion of him.

And why? Qarak was even younger when he drank Alexander dry. Tremere was not that older when he wiped out the Salubri and beated the Tzimisce,the Gangrel and the Nosferatu in the Omen war. John Dee was not much older when he became the Pontifex of and started outsmarting Mithras himself. Caius had 200 years when he staked the mighty Antonius and left him to the sun. Regina Blake was 18 years old when she beated Kemintiri. Lucinde had 250 years when she outsmarted Kemintiri, Gratiano had 200 years when he outsmarted most elders and methuselah of Castel d'Ombro. Cock Robin was less than 300 years old when he destroyed the plots of the Methuselah Trajan, Al-Ashrad was not even a vampire when he ambushed and torched the favourite childe of Haqim.

It's really not that strange.

These are completely different situations. While I would certainly contest some of the examples you put forward (Gratiano probably had the Antediluvian's hand on his shoulder, guiding him), I do acknowledge the fact that a younger vampire can get the best of an older one depending on the circumstances; such as, for instance, having a god/earthbound/celestine in your corner (hello there, Qarakh) or an Antediluvian wanting you to diablerize him and destroy his clan (hello there Tremere).
However, that's not what's being discussed here but rather the notion that an ancilla can be as politically savvy as the Methuselahs of two clans known for their political savviness. Really, how would Lodin beat the experience of a vampire who has been ruling the entirety of the British Isles for 2000 years? Especially when he can barely rule one city.

Comment

Childe of Anya Krylova (also the sire of St. Petersburg's Nikolai: he mentioned being in Napoleon's army, so I figure he was Embraced during the invasion of Russia)
Childe of Lady Justania
Childe of Gaius Fabricius (the temperamental methuselah who cannot let go of his petty grudge against Demetrius)
Childe of Alexander

Good lineage. The only issue I'd raise is that, according to Lacroix, he was Embraced by a Belgian noble.