The Wheel of Time Re-read: Winter’s Heart, Part 3

Who’s a cute widdle Wheel of Time Re-read? Who is? Yes, you are! Oh, yes you are!

Ahem! Today’s entry covers Chapters 1 and 2 of Winter’s Heart, in which the excrement hits the revolving cooling apparatus, and I try not to be too pissy about it.

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, in which you can find links to news, reviews, and all manner of information regarding the newest release, The Gathering Storm, and for WOT-related stuff in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

And a post! Ta-da!

Chapter 1: Leaving the Prophet

What Happens
Wheel, time, memories/legends/myth, wind. The wind blows past Tarabon, where the people are beginning to get used to their new Seanchan overlords, and past Amador, where they are not. It blows to Abila, where the people are more fearful than either of the first two places combined. Perrin marches out of Masema’s house, furious, and is gladder than ever he did not take Faile along when he smells the fervent madness of Masema’s followers as they watch him leave. As they reach the horses, Elyas comments that he thought they might have to fight their way out; Perrin thinks that’s the only thing that did go right, thinking of the four hundred leagues he was going to have to travel cross-country with the madman, since Masema thought only the holy Lord Dragon should be allowed to wield the One Power, and hours of argument had not convinced him otherwise. Masuri asks if Perrin understands now why Masema must be killed, calling him “rabid”; even though the Wise Ones agree, Carelle shuts her up and gets her and Seonid on their horses. Perrin sighs, thinking this a “fine boiling stew.”

Aram, bilious green Tinker’s cloak flailing the wind as he handled his reins, the hilt of his sword rising above his shoulder—Aram’s face was a map of excitement that made Perrin’s heart sink. In Masema, Aram had met a man who had given his life and heart and soul to the Dragon Reborn. In Aram’s view, the Dragon Reborn ranked close behind Perrin and Faile.

You did the boy no favor, Elyas had told Perrin. You helped him let go of what he believed, and now all he has to believe in is you and that sword. It’s not enough, not for any man. Elyas had known Aram when Aram was still a Tinker, before he picked up the sword.

A stew that might have poison in it, for some.

They ride out of town, Perrin thankful that he had managed to argue Masema down to only a hundred men to come with him when he meets Perrin at his camp tonight. Balwer rejoins them, and gets Perrin alone to give him two items of news. First, that King Ailron engaged the Seanchan near the town of Jeramel about ten days ago, and lost, resoundingly; Ailron himself was taken, and Amadicia effectively has no nobility (or army) left. The Whitecloaks had taken part, but withdrawn before the end; Balwer thinks Valda may have taken them east, which would mean toward Abila. Perrin tells Balwer that the Whitecloaks are unlikely to be more interested in them than in getting away from the Seanchan, and asks for the second item. Balwer tells him that the Seanchan have fought another battle in Altara, and lost; they were pushed back to Ebou Dar, and there was some mention of men channeling in the battle. Perrin comments flatly that it is good news, thinking that at least he doesn’t have to be worried whether Rand knows about the Seanchan or not. He sees a hawk overhead, which makes him think of Faile, and he calls for the party to pick up the pace, eager to get back to her.

Commentary
Goodness, a short chapter. It’s been a while!

Of course, correspondingly there isn’t all that much to say about it, since it basically is just a mini-recap to get us back up to speed about what Perrin’s situation is, right before the fit hits the shan. I’m kind of proud of how I fit two pages of text into the first three sentences of the recap.

Also, I have to say that my impatient self would be utterly livid if my traveling companion’s stupid prejudices forced me into a journey that will take weeks (months?) when it could take literally ten minutes, even if he wasn’t a foaming nutbag into the bargain. Ugh.

(Much in the same way I’m still pissed that they haven’t invented flying cars yet. We were promised flying cars, dammit! Or even better, teleportation. Where is MY instantaneous travel method, eh? EH?)

The only other thing worth noting in this chapter is Aram, and how hindsight makes the quote above reek of deeply ominous ominosity. And, headddeskness. I remember complaining that Aram’s eventual betrayal of Perrin was too out of left field when it happened (in KOD, I think), but looking at this I really don’t know what I was on about. Between this quote and Egwene’s multiple Aram + Doom dream prophecies, how much more foreshadowing did I need? Sheesh.

On reflection, though, the “hindsight” comment I just made is instructive. I don’t think I really noticed, initially, the significance of Elyas’s insightful observation about Aram’s desperate need for a belief system—any belief system—to cling to; or at least, it didn’t occur to me to place as much importance upon it as I (in retrospect) should have.

I suspect part of the problem here is my general lack of identification with the faith-oriented mindset, and its intrinsic need (by definition) to have rules and strictures rooted in some analogue of a higher/divine power. As an agnostic whose moral philosophy is probably best described as secular humanist (at least as far as I can tell), this is not a worldview which instinctually occurs to me. In a character-analysis sense, therefore, it would be well for me to recall that not everyone is content or comfortable with the notion that the rules of Life, the Universe, and Everything are mutable, and that this can make a vast difference in how that character reacts to life-changing events.

Chapter 2: Taken

What Happens
Perrin’s party arrives back at camp to find the Mayener and Ghealdanin companies flanking the Aiel camp, facing off, while the Two Rivers men are arrayed between both armies and the Aiel, bows nocked. Perrin gallops to where Berelain, Gallenne, and Annoura are arguing with Alliandre’s First Captain, Gerard Arganda. Berelain turns to Perrin before he can demand to know what is going on, and tells him she, Alliandre, and Faile’s hunting party were attacked by Aiel, and no one else has returned yet; she thinks the Aiel may have taken prisoners, though. Perrin is at first stunned, then yells at her, demanding to know why they’re all just standing here instead of looking for Faile, but Berelain rightly replies that they cannot just stumble around without knowing what they face, or whether Faile is still alive to be rescued. Elyas quickly agrees, cautioning Perrin to take hold of himself, and volunteering to help the scouts track her, opining that she may well have escaped. Perrin knows Elyas is being deliberately over-optimistic, but agrees harshly, and Elyas leaves, followed by Aram and, to his surprise, Masuri and Seonid’s Warders. He manages to nod thanks to them. Arganda is arguing something, but Perrin doesn’t hear him, instead reaching out to the wolves in a near panic. He finds several packs nearby; they are sorry for the loss of his she, but they avoid the two-legs and can give him no useful information. They advise him to “mourn, and meet her again in the Wolf Dream.” Arganda repeats that they have taken Alliandre, and Perrin cuts him off to ask coldly why it looks like Arganda’s men are about to charge his own. Arganda furiously replies that it was Aiel who took Alliandre, and wants to interrogate Perrin’s Aiel about it. Berelain interjects that Arganda is overwrought, and Perrin informs Arganda that Alliandre swore fealty to him, Perrin, and therefore Arganda is under his command as well, and he is to stand down and wait for Perrin’s orders. Breathing heavily, Arganda finally agrees and wheels off, shouting orders to his men.

“You handled that very well, Perrin,” Berelain said. “A difficult situation, and a painful time for you.” Not formal at all, now. Just a woman full of pity, her smile compassionate. Oh, she had a thousand guises, Berelain did.

She stretched out a red-gloved hand, and he backed Stayer away before she could touch him. “Give it over, burn you!” he snarled. “My wife has been taken! I’ve no patience for your childish games!”

She jerked as if he had struck her. Color bloomed in her cheeks, and she changed again, becoming supple and willowy in her saddle. “Not childish, Perrin,” she murmured, her voice rich and amused. “Two women contesting over you, and you the prize? I would think you’d be flattered.”

She leaves with Gallenne, and Annoura pauses before following to comment to Perrin that he is sometimes a “very large fool.” Perrin doesn’t know what she means, but is disgusted with both her and Berelain, and takes off without a word. He goes up to the hill, where Gaul and the Maidens are still veiled. Dannil Lewin comes over to apologize, saying they weren’t sure what else to do when they saw the Ghealdanin go after “our” Aiel; Perrin tells him he did right, and sends two thirds of them to get ready to break camp, the rest to stay on guard. He goes up to where Gaul and the Maidens are preparing to leave and stops Gaul with a hand on his chest.

For some reason, Gaul’s green eyes tightened above his veil. Sulin and the rest of the Maidens strung out behind him went up on the balls of their feet.

“Find her for me, Gaul,” Perrin said. “All of you, please find who took her. If anyone can track Aiel, it’s you.”

The tightness in Gaul’s eyes vanished as suddenly as it had come, and the Maidens relaxed, too. As much as Aiel ever could be said to relax. It was very strange. They could not think he blamed them in any way.

Gaul assures him they will, and each of the Maidens kisses her fingers and then touches Perrin on the shoulder as they pass. Perrin doesn’t know what that means, but notes that they are letting Gaul lead, which is odd, and wonders if it has to do with Chiad (and Bain) getting captured as well. Then Perrin curses himself for not thinking of the others who had been taken until now. Grady and Neald approach him to offer their services in looking for Faile, and Perrin is strongly tempted to agree, but realizes that he may need them to deal with Masema, not to mention the factions in camp, and tells them no. The Wise Ones have gathered in their tent with the flaps tied; Perrin goes over and prepares to cut his way in, but Nevarin comes out first and asks what he wants. Swallowing, Perrin asks how they will treat her; Nevarin shows no sympathy, and answers that she doesn’t know, as the Shaido have already broken with Aiel law in taking wetlanders as gai’shain in the first place.

“Light, woman, you must have some idea! Surely you can make a guess—”

Do not become irrational,” she broke in sharply. “Men often do in such situations, but we have need of you. I think it will do your standing with the other wetlanders no good if we must bind you until you calm down. Go to your tent. If you cannot control your thoughts, drink until you cannot think. And do not bother us when we are in council.”

She goes back in; Perrin considers busting in anyway, but finally decides against it and walks back to camp, wondering why all the Two Rivers men are staring at him. Gill flinches when he sees Perrin and hurries off, but Lini comes up and tells him he must take care of himself; food will make him look less like “murder walking.” He thanks her distractedly, and then sees her pinched look and realizes Maighdin had been with Faile. He promises her roughly that he will get them all back before hurrying away, out of camp, to a stony ridge where he knew he would be able to see Elyas and the others returning. Tallanvor is already there, and jumps up when he sees Perrin, perhaps expecting Perrin to be angry with him for not being there with Faile et al, but Perrin thinks that he has a right to keep watch. The two men stand there until darkness falls, waiting.

Commentary
And the Plotline of Doom officially kicks off. DUN.

And man, what a letdown that we finally get some Wolfbrotherness after, what, two whole books of Perrin resolutely ignoring the wolves—and then they’re all, yeah, haven’t seen your chick, bummer dude, keep it reals, kthxbai. And then they’re gone! That SUCKS. Faugh, I say! Want more wolves!

*pouts*

Berelain: Okay, she is shortly going to make me see red, but I have to say that here it really is Perrin being the dick, and not her. I mean, I get why he reacted that way, and it is a fair bet that I would have too in his position—you can only, heh, cry wolf so many times before no one will believe in your sincerity—but still, I think she was really trying to be nice there. And even if she wasn’t, it was the wrong move on Perrin’s part anyway, and one that will cost him. As we will see, I think.

Actually, Nevarin pissed me off more than anyone else in this chapter. It would have killed her to be a little sympathetic? Everyone else, including Berelain, the Aes Sedai, and Tallanvor (all usual suspects in the Annoying of Me), acts pretty cool in this chapter. Don’t worry, I’m sure it won’t last.

Well, except Arganda, of course, who is today playing the role of the Bigotry-Impaired, I see. There’s always one. Another mindset I can only grasp with difficulty is the one that seems to believe the whole world operates via the Law of Contagion. Example: the terrorists who blew up the World Trade Center were Muslim, ergo, all Muslims are terrorists. I mean, forget being screamingly racist, I’m going to be contemptuous of that just for the appalling logic fail. What do they teach in schools these days?

I mean, besides in Texas. (Oooh…)

(Just for the record, I went to college in Texas. I therefore have earned my right to mock, by gum.)

ANYway. Am a little confused about Gaul. Though I applaud his going out there, Bain and Chiad are the only “legit” captives in the bunch, going by ji’e’toh, so why exactly is he going after them? Unless Perrin’s Aiel have all decided “fuck that noise” when it comes to the Shaido, in which case, yay, but also, wow.

And, yeah. That’s what I got for this one, kids. Happy Tuesday? Yeah, doesn’t really work, does it. Well, do your best, and I’ll see youse on the much happier day of Friday!

Re-reading these chapters is most annoying. Because you know that Faile will not get rescued for three. More. Books. *sigh*

I do agree with you, Leigh, about Perrin's snappiness towards Berelain. Sure, she's behaved..er, inappropriately in the past, but not this time! Alas, Perrin seems to be worse at either Rand or Mat at saying the right things to women. Or he just deals with the crazier versions(otherwise known as hawks and falcons).

And the Aram-foreshadowing saddens me indeed. Ah to remember the days when he was a flirty guy who flustered Egwene so!

Gaul is going after Chiad (and Bain) because if he kills whoever has them as gai'shain, they become his... which is what happens in KoD. And nothing says romance like ritualistic slavery.

My question is why does Gaul react to Perrin touching him like that? My first thought was that it was because Perrin is touching him while he is veiled, but then the veiled Maidens touch Perrin with their fingertips, so I guess not? Maybe it's just because Perrin looks super-pissed?

Leigh was talking about religious belief. The thing is, you don't have to be religious to believe in something, perhaps something bigger than yourself. Most people do, or feel the need to. It may be a great leader, a philosophy or an ideal, a cause, fate, luck, who knows what all. You don't have to believe in God to need something to believe in.

She, for example, may believe in feminism, or gay rights, or conservation of the environment, or any number of things, and those aren't necessarily pro- or anti-religious beliefs.

Meh, I honestly don't have a problem with how he handled Berelain. I'm in 100% agreeance... agreement... the state of agreeing with Perrin in his reaction. The bitch has taken the game too far. To use a modern-day analogy, it's like if your wife/partner/significant other and you have been having a rough time, and there's this other chick/dude at the bar who keeps getting in your business and stalking you home at night. You keep trying to tell her/him to back the fuck off, but s/he doesn't listen. Then your wife/partner/whathaveyou gets in a horrible car wreck, put in the hospital, and you have no way of knowing if she will live through the night, and the first sympathy card and balloon you receive is from your stalker-person, and reads, "I'm so sorry for what has happened. You may comfort yourself in my bed tonight." Fuck. That. Shit. I have no sympathy for manipulators. She's only a step down from Tylin as far as I'm concerned, and I have no doubt she would rape Perrin at knife-point if she thought it would raise the stakes in her games.

It seems that the Aiel were pretty tense about being targeted by the Ghealdanians and maybe they thought that all of the wetlanders assumed they were in league with the Shaido. They shouldn't have, but fear is never rational.

And then they see Perrin marching up to them, face wolflike, but instead of blaming or accusing them, he gives them his trust, tasking them with rescuing his wife. Huge relief for the Aiel, huge release of tension, and their love and gratitude to him pours out in Gaul's assurance and the Maiden's kiss-touches.

I confess that I never understood what the undercurrent was of Perrin-Faile-Berelain while reading the books. I sorta get why Faile was so pissed. If Perrin treated her like porcelain then he considered her weak. But what is Berelain's deal? She doesn't like Faile, so Perrin suffers? What's with the flirting with a married man for 8 freaking books? Why do it when Faile isn't there? Why spread the rumor that Perrin slept with her the night after Faile was taken? What is her angle?

And Perrin has every right to not believe a single thing she says or does. She is in a constant state of deception. Perrin is in a constant state of blunt truth. He is tired of it, stated it on numerous occasions, and she refused to stop. No way Perrin is going to give her the benefit of the doubt now of all times.

Actually, plot line of doom started at the end of last book-but that's not important.

@5 I speculate that Gaul was concerned that Perrin would blame him for not preventing the kidnapping which, under the honor code, would be a big deal - a theory indirectly confirmed by Perrin's thought that "of course that couldn't think I'd blame them." Yes, they did think it. Instead, Perrin is clearly not blaming him and is relying on him to save Faile and the rest. Now he has multiple reasons to find and save the gang.

Berelain - *headdesk*

Wise Women - what are they in council about, exactly? they already approved sending some warders in the search effort. They already know the Shaido are violating honor. What else is there to discuss that's important enough to give Perrin the big, rude blow off? I don't get it. Ideas?

Re: Gaul.. Makes sense for him to be a bit on edge. First he finds out that the woman he loves is missing.
Then instead of offers of help, he gets half the camp blaming him for it, absurd as that is to him. After all, we might see that coming, but to him the shaido are practically another nation.
Then, baked as he is in wetlander crazy suspicion, mr Murder Walking comes up and stops him in his tracks. He's allowed to have an instinctual reaction before his mind registering that Perrin is not like that.

I didn't mind this storyline, the first time I read it, anyway. Of course, then I didn't know it would stretch on so long. I thought maybe this book, or at the most they'd get saved in beginning of the next on. But, yeah, after going through three books it got to be too much. And I, unlike so many others, like Perrin and Faile. As weird as it sounds, I think they have the most normal (I didn't say functional) relationship of the three boys.

As for the Aiel, they thought Perrin would blame them. As much as they like him, Perrin is still a wetlander and so his ways are different than theirs. Not only that, but a man in grief is likely to act in ways that are irrational.

Yes, on the surface that is why she spread the rumor, but what is her game? Where does it end in her mind? Is she really trying to break up Perrin's marriage? Is she just a bad girl having fun at another's expense? I simply can't get inside her head and come up with a logical thought process that explains her actions.

First of all I agree with Leigh about Masema. I’d be royally ticked off too if I had to face the prospect of dragging a crazy man around for months instead of being able to just pop in and drop him off because he is so delusional that he believes that no but the DR can use the one power.

Yay for run-on sentences!

Secondly, I think I identify with Perrin pretty much when he finds out that Faile has been captured. I think he does a good job of spurring people to action, and getting them away from trying to fight each other. I also think he was acting rightly when he yelled at Berelaine to stop playing her games, and I don’t understand why Annoura said he was a fool. I realize that Berelaine was probably sympathetic towards him, but it still seems like she is playing games with him, and it just really annoys me about her. I don’t know maybe I missed something, but that’s what it seemed like to me at least.

I liked the part with Perrin talking to Gaul also. I think it meant a lot to the Aiel that Perrin didn’t lump them together with the Shaido. It also seems like the maidens saw Perrin’s pain as they were leaving, and touching his shoulder as they passed him was a show of sympathy and support for him.

"Grady and Neald approach him to offer their services in looking for Faile, and Perrin is strongly tempted to agree, but realizes that he may need them to deal with Masema, not to mention the factions in camp, and tells them no."

Horray! The Ashaman are acting like humans! Its good when they do that and the fact that they both go up to Perrin and offer their help is sweet.

jc - in TSR, after Faile and Berelain fought, Berelain gave an "Ogier's Oath" that she would get Perrin. Obviously, her oath is more important than the facts that he is married and that the anguish her actions are causing to Perrin arguably is impeding his ability to help Rand save the world.

This plot-line, as already mentioned by others, didn't annoy me too much the first time I read it. Like others, not knowing that it was going to drag on for three (!) books made it quite readable the first time around, IIRC. To be honest though, I do tend to skip it in great chunks during re-reads now... It will be interesting to see if there's things I've missed on those re-reads that may (will) crop up during Leigh's posts.

BenM @ 8, I think Claire is referring to the Plotline Of Doom, not the book bearing the same initials.

I forgot what these chapters were. Ug. My joy at the new post is diminished. Gloom. Doom. Gloom. Doom. Toll the bells. Sigh. It had to come sometime, didn't it? Sigh, it did. How fast can we get through this section?

I liked when Perrin snapped at Berelain! I thought, "About time you told her to bugger off in no uncertain terms." Of course she does get back at him later, but we didn't know that then. Perrin was in shock here and right on the edge of crazy over Faile, plus just having dealt with Nut-Job Masema for hours. I am kind of amazed at his calm.

I too am saddened by what happens to Aram. Poor kid. Just looking for an anchor in a world turned upside down for him. :-( I don't understand that need either, but maybe that's because I always had an anchor. FTR, I missed all this foreshadowing on the first read too.

I guess I totally understand Perrin blowing up at Berelain the way he did. It's definitely completely in character for him. He's never understood Berelain's game. And Berelain has never had the slightest inkling about him.

So really, more status quo.

I did really like the brief scene with the Aiel. I think Sonofthunder @ 10 is dead right about why they initially reacted the way they did. And it's great that even in his madness, Perrin was able to speak to Gaul in just the right way.

There is another undertone to the Perrin/Gaul scene that a lot of people seem to be missing. An Aiel is taken as gai'shain when one of their enemies touches them in battle. So when Perrin lays his hand on Gaul's chest while he is wearing his veil, from an Aiel point of view, their first reaction is to see it as Perrin trying to claim Gaul as his gai'shain, possibly in revenge for Faile being taken in the same way. This is what sets the maidens on edge. When they realize that this is not what he intended, they all relax. I'm guessing that when they kiss their fingers and touch his shoulder, it is either some sort of apology, or a ritual for sealing a promise. I'm assume that they felt some amount of toh to Perrin, and this is their way of settling it.

@26 That's a good little theory there MuleHeadedLummox, I like it. I imagine it's a combination of that and the fact that they may believe Perrin will be wrongly blaming them for Faile's abduction.

@14 I'm sorry, I just don't buy it, Randalator. First of all, whether or not she blatantly said, "I want to jump your bones while you're grieving," in my experience, the only way you can judge a person's current actions are by their past actions. And when everything she's done up to this point in regards to Perrin is try to make his life living hell because of her little girl-fight with Faile, then I have no problems with his reaction or my analogy. Secondly, in your response to jcmnyu, are you actually agreeing with her tit-for-tat actions of, "well, you scorned me, so I'm going to make things even worse now?" Just because she has a reason doesn't mean it's a good, logical, or just reason.

The thing to remember about Perrin's response to Berelain is that she first started trying to "tame" him by touching him every time she saw him, the way you tame a wild animal. He doesn't snap at her until she reaches out to touch him, and he sees that as simply continuing her past habits, something he rightly can take offense to and put her in her place over.

I liked your theory until it occurred to me that Perrin isn't Aiel and doesn't follow ji'e'toh. Just as the normal Aiel despise the Shiado taking wetlanders as gai'shain, they would not accept Perrin taking one of them as one. At least that's how I suspect that would have played out had he tried.

In a word, no. I have never been able to figure out what she thinks she is doing. I can't imagine anything that would link her actions to an endgame. I know I don't think she is good, justified, or logical. Many bad, unjustified, and unlogical people become leaders. They even accomplish things. I'd just like to understand this plotline that has extended from TSR through book 12. Seems like it shouldn't be that hard.

Perrin is under immense strain, has just suffered a major personal blow, and has been treated badly by Berelain in the recent past (as was pointed out, in ways that her reachout here would inevitably feel similar to). I think none of us can blame him for lashing out, and I personally doubt if I would have done even as well as he did. That said, Annoura calls him a fool because lashing out made the situation worse; even if Berelain is in the wrong before and after this scene, handling her differently here just might have resulted in her being more constructive in the following weeks. Perrin is a major leader in a position of great responsibility. Successfully dealing with your people's flaws and foibles is part of the job description, and he didn't manage to do it here. I definitely understand why, but he can still take the knock.

What is Berelain's deal, we ask? I tend to suspect that there actually isn't much if any further depth here -- she's an intelligent woman, and apparently a skilled statesperson in many situations, who is capable of being remarkably petty and vindictive. Whether this part of her character is pushed to unrealistic lengths in order for her to serve as a foil for Perrin is arguable (@34, I think that's your point, and it's a good one), but in general, that's not an uncommon combination of personal characteristics. The best counterargument that there's things going on with her we don't know is her relationship with the Aiel, which I haven't yet heard a satisfactory explanation of (but would love to if anybody has one).

S

(Edit)p.s. Arganda: Not that his response to the Aiel is realistic. Open any newspaper.

I also think Beralain is still attempting to win the 'prize', which is getting extremely annoying for me. Also agree the night in her tent is pay-back in a most 5-year-old sense.

Megaduck @ 20: The Asha'man with Rand all act human in the scenes we see as far as I can remember. I think that is one of the reasons Rand chose the ones he did at Dumai's Wells with the exception of Dashiva. Him Rand did not trust. (By the way, has anyone noticed the pun on his name? Da Shiva-Hindu God representing destruction? Just wondering)

MuleHeadedLummox @ 26: Along with the possibility of the ga'shain angle, there is the thought that Perrin might not want to let the majority of the scouts go.

Add to that, while the Maidens have been having tons of fun watching Gaul attempting to attract Chiad's interest (The Aiel sense of humor) they also might have let convention slip enough that they would not allow them to serve their year and a day with the Shaido. There might have been talk off screen that the Shaido were not going to let the gai'shain go after a year and a day.

I agree that the maidens probably wouldn't have gone along with Perrin claiming Gaul as gai'shain, but that doesn't mean they didn't think that was what he was trying to do. As soon as Perrin touched Gaul, they "went up on the balls of their feet." I take that to mean that they were preparing themselves to fight. Whether they were going to fight him for violating their customs, or they thought he held them responsible for his wife's abduction isn't clear, but either could be a valid interpretation.

As for the Berelain scene, I can understand why Perrin reacted in the way he did. She has been trying to come between him and Faile for a while, and he thinks she is trying to take advantage of her abduction to get close to him. Her reaction seems to indicate that was at least part of her intentions, as she admits she is "contesting" for him with Faile. I have a hard time feeling sorry for her, even if Perrin does handle this poorly.

First off, Berelain has no right to have her "sympathies" be taken seriously after all she has done to Perrin.

jcmnyu@17
Berelain's behavior does not make any sense to me, but here are the in-story reasons. In TDR, Faile confronts Berelain and tells her to keep her hands off Perrin. When Berelain does not give Faile the answer she wants, Faile attacks her with knives. Berelain puts Faile in her place and swears an Ogier's oath that she will have Perrin. Berelain has had it in for Faile ever since. Poor Perrin is just the means by which she is trying to get to Faile.

As far as why she continues after Faile is gone...She offers to stop, but when Perrin does not aknowledge her, she gets vindictive.

It is unfortunate because I would really like her if she had never met Perrin and Faile. It seems to me that her personality around Perrin and Faile does not fit with her personality when they are not around.

aspeo@18
I also don't understand Annoura's statement. In fact, I don't get Annoura at all. She is always too busy being aloof and mysterious. I don't get why an Aes Sedai would help someone spread rumors and lies to try to help break up someone else's marriage.

RobMRobM@21
Oops got to it before me. Oh well, I don't feel like deleting.

re Aram's foreshadowing
I actually think I saw it coming. I remember thinking Aram was crazy right from the moment his parents were murdered and he picked up the sword. As soon as he was in the same room as Masema, I thought "Uh oh."

I agree with those above who think Perrin's response to Berelain is understandable and also don't understand why Annoura calls him a fool or why she helps Berelain with her stupid agenda. Annoura is a very strange AS, she's got the mysterious part down pat but she also seems to have some strange personal allegiance to Berelain that appears rather inexplicable.

junior1234@34 - yes! Berelain is cool except for this childish behavior with Perrin and Faile. I like your theory that she is being used to serve two purposes within the plot and these don't mesh well.

If only this plot were resolved in less books.

re Aram, pretty much felt that nothing would come of that as soon as he first picked up a sword.

I’m kind of proud of how I fit two pages of text into the first three sentences of the recap. Well done! Especially since the first (short) sentence covers the first (short) paragraph, and the next two sentences cover two pages.

Where is MY instantaneous travel method, eh? Hear, hear!! I enjoy road trips, but when I have to go somewhere that I can't drive in a reasonable amount of time (or when time simply doesn't permit the amount of driving required) I would much rather Travel or something than go through the whole beastly airport/airplane/airport business. Especially since my son does NOT react well to airplanes... And yeah, can we just get out to camp and whack Masema?? PLEASE??? *sigh* Nutcase.

Aram... *sigh* Nutcase.

Okay, I feel like I should have something more to say about Elyas's insightful comment, but... I don't. At least not at the moment. Except that I don't recall ever feeling like Aram's betrayal of Perrin came out of the blue. Maybe just because I first read it too long ago? I remember feeling duly betrayed, but more in that sick, hollow-in-the-pit-of-the-stomach "he really did it, and I so hoped he wouldn't" sense.

Berelain... GAH!!!! STOP IT, WOMAN!!!! Yeah, her behavior in this scene really makes me want to snarl at her too. And quite possibly smack her upside the head. With TGS, or possibly my Perry's... Yeah, flattered?? Hello? However, I think this says a lot:

“Two women contesting over you, and you the prize? I would think you’d be flattered.”

She probably really does think he should be flattered by it, which goes to show that she hasn't a clue about him and what makes him tick. Which is another thing that irritates me - she assumes that he ticks the same way Mayeners do, without bothering to find out the actual truth. (I obviously disagree with Leigh here... I mean, maybe snapping at her might not be the best move, but whether it was "real sympathy" (or trying to be nice) or not, duh. Using the same behavior to express "trying to be nice" as you do when "contesting over you" is not likely to earn points. Then again, like I just said, she doesn't have a clue about what makes him tick, so yeah. Still.)

(Of course, this happens all the time, both WoT-life and Real-life. WoT-life's prime example might actually be the Aiel, who think wetlanders are all honorless dogs because they don't follow the same rules of conduct... And all the wetlanders who think Aiel are savages because they have a different way of life. I think Berelain just bugs me more because it's so stinkin' personal with her.)

Oh, I teared up (again!!) at the scene with Perrin & Gaul. The Aiel are clearly expecting to be misjudged again, and Perrin completely blows their expectation because he so forthrightly trusts them. It suddenly occurs to me that Perrin mostly deals with individuals, and "judges" them (not the right word, but you know...) on how they behave individually, not as a group or a culture. Am I right? All the examples I can think of at the moment fit this, but maybe there are lots of other example that don't... help me out, here.

Nice Narnia callout, BTW.

And I think Gaul and the Maidens are going out to see what the devil is going on, and who these Aiel are. Remember, at this point they don't know that Sammael scattered the Shaido "all over the where" out here.

And now, having commented on the recap and commentary, I shall go read the other comments on the recap and commentary, and then comment on them...

One of the things Faile's POV says once is that she wish Perrin would stop acting like he was the prize to be won.
Put that together with the fact that everyone thinks he's the master at Daes Dae'mar when he's just super honest, and I think that Berelain completely misunderstood what Perrin meant.

I think she was treating him normally just then, and interpreted his rejection as a sign that the game was still on and that he could still be won.

BenM @6 - Good point. And when you take one belief system away, you replace it with another, even if you don't do it consciously.

Ishmayl @9 - Well, I wouldn't have said it quite that way, but I agree in principle. :)

jcmnyu @11 - That, too.

jcmnyu @17 - Yeah, that, too.

@several... I think Annoura called Perrin a fool because she understood that he'd just antagonized Berelain without realizing that she would then escalate the "game." How on earth Annoura would think Perrin should understand that I don't know; maybe she sees through it so easily that she assumes everyone else should as well. (It's probably true that if Perrin understood Berelain and her background better, he'd probably be better able to shut her down.) And maybe Annoura had seen how effective Perrin's conduct had started to become, when he was following Elyas's advice, and thought he was a fool for going back to his earlier reactions instead of continuing what he'd been doing. (I see Silvertip has said some of the same thing @35.) As for why she apparently helps Berelain with her stupid agenda... No clue.

junior1234 @34 - Hmmm. Not sure I agree with that. Certainly Berelain acts differently around different people, but that's partly because a very great deal of what she does involves acting. It's also because she's a manipulator and she does what she thinks will work with any given person. I'm not quite sure which "two different character slots" you mean, but if you're talking about the "competent ruler character" and the "irrepressible flirt character" - they fit together pretty well, because she's always used whatever tools she had, to do what she thought was important. She's got a sharp mind, and from her perspective, her physical beauty is just a tool to be used to get what she wants. (I'll give her this: her top priority is the security of Mayene.)

bawambi @41 - Well, it's certainly a possibility! There might even be other reasons for a Black to get her "charge" in close to one of the "big three" guys.

Wetlandernw@42 said
" I remember feeling duly betrayed, but more in that sick, hollow-in-the-pit-of-the-stomach "he really did it, and I so hoped he wouldn't" sense."
which I think is funny because my reaction was "thank goodness he finally did it and now we can move on." The lead up to Aram cracking and going over to the dark side seem excruciatingly long and drawn out to me. I always found his particular brand of crazy pretty annoying.

The reason Perrin's plot is so annoying is two fold. First, it moves slowly and spans several books. Second, it is full of crazy people and it is hard to deal with multiple crazies in the same plotline. Let's count the crazies:
1. Masema: the King of Crazy and all his crazy followers
2. Aram: lost puppy dog crazy
3. Morgase: post traumatic/post compulsion crazy
4. Berelain: husband poaching crazy
5. Perrin: the world can die crazy
I'm sure there are more.

JennB, don't forget the AS-apprenticed-to-the-WO and the WO-teaching-AS crazies, and there are all the Shaido WO crazies (each with their own wierd of crazy), particularly Sevanna and Therava, and the Brotherless crazies, and of course you can't forget Galina with her own lovable version of crazy....

Apparently I'm the only one who doesn't think the same on the Gaul/Perrin/Maidens tense situation thing. I honestly cannot buy into the idea that Gaul would have thought Perrin would blame him for Faile's capture. They've known each other for a pretty long time and have been through a hell of a lot together. I just can't buy that Gaul would think of Perrin that way.

The same goes for the idea that they would think Perrin was trying to take Gaul Gai'shain. He's a wetlander, why would they think he'd do something like that? It doesn't make sense, and especially not of Perrin. Again, even if they thought some idiot Wetlander might try it, I don't see Gaul thinking it of Perrin. Neither of those two explanations make sense to me.

The only things that ever came to mind to me, was the possibility that Gaul thought Perrin might try to stop him from going out and searching. In other words, Gaul and the maidens were ready and everyone else had sent out scouts, but then Perrin walks up to him and puts a hand on him in stopping motion. Which might indicate he was telling them they weren't going anywhere. Which would have been pretty ugly on two fronts. One, because it would be a sign or lack of conifdence. Which could potentially be an insult. Also, I thought Gaul might also be expecting Perrin to make an ass out of himself by offering condolences for Bain/Chiad, and thus embarassing him and making the situation worse. Instead, he not only sends them out, making clear he's putting his confidence in them above all others, but also diverting attention from Gauls intentions/feelings and giving Gaul an "out" for going on the search and not have it be about him looking for Bain/Chiad, and being because of Perrins request for them to find Faile. So it's kind of like Perrin not only shows a great confidence in the Aiel, but also "takes one" for his friend and helps him out. The maidens respect his doing that and show it with that ritual.

Far ahead, a hawk soared high in the cloudless sky, heading north. It would reach the camp long before he would. Perrin could recall a time when he had had as few concerns as that hawk. Compared to now, at least. It had been a very long time ago.{...}Perrin's eyes returned to the hawk, barely visible now even to him. It made him think of File, his fierce falcon of a wife. His beautiful falcon of wife.{...}The hawk might see Faile before he did, but unlike the bird, he would be seeing the love of his heart. And today, he would not shout at her no matter what she did.

Chapter 2 starts with:

The hawk soon passed out of sight...

An elaborate build up for hawk = Berelain. Also, I know this part of the story drives everyone crazy, but has anyone considered why RJ has had Berelain around so much? I am expecting some type of big pay off ere the end. I think Linda at 13D speculated on how it is Berelain sur Paendrag - how the Seanchan revere all who are related to Artur Paendrag Tanreall. If Tuon is caught chanelling, will the Seanchan on this side if the ocean choose Berelain? What are some other ideas why Berelain has been such an important character?

Ugh, this plotline is worse than "of Doom" to me. I took 5 days to re-read PoD and only 6 days to reread aCoS. It took me FOUR FRIGGIN DAYS to get through this horrible, awful crapola plot-line, which will cover the next 5,000 entries of the re-read only to be resolved in 5 paragraphs in a casual, sort of off-hand, flip of text in tGS. There's only one thing to say…

cavynmaicl@55
Ooh... Do we get to complain about how this plot was "resolved in 5 paragraphs in a casual, sort of off-hand, flip of text in tGS" now? I have been waiting until we get there, but it is oh so tempting. Alas, I will continue to wait, but when the time comes...

I think reading this plotline can be infuriating at times, as was mentioned it covers 3 books, and also has a lot of crazies going for it. But I also have listened to all the audiobooks of WOT and this plotline is not so bad, as Kramer and Redding do a fantastic job of voice acting. I also have to say that kramer does a fantastic job of the voice of Balwer, and it always cracks me up to listen to it. Balwer is one of my favorites. :)

I also do not underestand Annoura's comment to Perrin how he was a fool nor do I understand why she goes along with Barelain's plans. My reaction to Barelain after all she did to Perrin preceding this would of been the same. So I really do not understand Annoura's comment. Maybe she is black, as was mentioned. :)

Also regarding Barelain, I believe Galad meets up with Perrin offscreen in TGS and we will be seeing that in ToM. Will Galad sweep Barelain off her feet? Do not know if anyone can do that to Barelain, but I hope so. Still took long enough for the Barelain/Galad meet up if indeed Galad is her man in white. Maybe that is why Barelain is included in this plotline, other than to annoy all of us at times.

I remember being surprised that Aram's crazy ended in him trying to kill Perrin. I'm pretty sure I caught all the bad omeny stuff about him, just didn't put a direction on it.

The only good part of this plotline is when Perrin starts rounding up Seanchan resources. I always get a kick out of the scene where he uses Suroth's name and, as per usual, it works for entirely different reasons than he expected.

I've said this hundreds of posts ago, but as Leigh points out, this whole dang story arc coulda been squashed from the word "jump". Use the flippin' male channelers already! Pop in, kill the Prophet- quietly- because, let's face it, he needs killing. Somebody should pass a law, if a guy needs killing, we kill him. We do not use it as a means to drag out a story arc for what feels like hundreds of pages of "we have to be careful of the rioting villagers that would ensue"...

Dang.

And use the guys- do the Rand Travel bouncy thing he does and catch up to the flippin' Shaido. That many Aiel can't blend in, heck, they don't, cause they pillage and carve a swathe wherever they go. And then somebody needs to invent handcuffs and chain Perrin to his love. That would straighten out a few issues. They could bond... yeah, that's what we will call it.

Edited for lyrics- thanks Lannis:) All I remember of that song was from Patrick Swayze in "Ghost".

JennB@49
Re: Aram. My thoughts exactly. And like Lillcheese above, I was surprised by his ending.

Pendragon@52
You are not the only one. I always took it as a given that the Aiel's instant assumption was that Perrin was stopping them. Hence their immediate change of attitude.

As for Berelain and Perrin, what a mess! Both Faile and Berelain have been playing football for ages now and poor Perrin has been the rubber clueless egg/ball. IMO Faile should've stopped it. One can argue she has a duty of care to her unfortunate husband and their marriage.

And while I am lamenting- let me kick myself for the lost opportunity in the last thread. We could have had bets going as to who would win- Aviendha or Elayne? It was perfect, they were already smacking each other- loved that more so than the nudity- but an innocent bystander could have tossed in a foreign object, a tub of jello, Nutella, I dunno...

@5 I always thought that Gaul and the Maidens were waiting to see if Perrin was going to think they were in cahoots with the Shaido. His acknowledgement that they (Gaul et al) would rescue Faile made him relax as he acknowledged their strength and honor ....
Maidens were giving Perrin their sympathy at the very least.

I love that you spelled Berelain as "Barelain"....a perfectly Freudian slip of the keyboard.

I don't understand Faile or Berelain's behavior in any of these books. Both of them are a total mystery to me as a fellow woman. I just don't get it.

I know we've discussed, ad nauseum, what Faile wants in a man, which still makes me scratch my head and go, "Whah?" And we've disected Faile's rivalry with Berelain with her "Ogier oath" to take Perrin from her, but WHY IS THIS STILL GOING ON???? It's so childish and pointless. Somebody tell Berelain, They're married! You've lost!! Go do something important! Argh.

I have a feeling I'm going to have a very sore head before this story arc is finished.

Randalator @3
We know that because Perrin says so. If we were to ask Rand, he'd always point to Perrin and Mat knowing girls better. If we were to ask Mat, he'd say Perrin's silent approach and Rand's honeyed approach are better than any style he could come up with.

RobMRobM @20
At a guess I'd say they're being petty and reinforcing the tradition that Wise Ones' and Clan Chiefs' business are separate. As the standing Chief for this little venture, Perrin has already done what must be done. Now the Wise Ones have to take care of business. Whatever that business is.

Megaduck @20
Well, Grady understands how it is to be parted from one's wife and family.

ThePendragon @52
Good call.

subwoofer @62
That's because Masema is obviously the preaching, god talks to me in mysterious ways kind of prophet, while what you're saying will require a god shows me what will happen kind of prophet.

thewindrose @54 - Um, meow. I love that idea about Berelain*, so I had to dig it up (this?) and ... well, and yet. What kind of boost (or lack thereof) would she get if she were already allied with the anti-Seanchan leader of the (traditionally) anti-channeling Whitecloaks? And furthermore, is there even room for the crazy that could result from this when there are only two books left??

That said, I've never understood how Berelain's actions could be confusing. Consider: you're a political prisoner in the world's most unbreakable fortress when three ta'veren show up. You might want to attach yourself to at least one of them - more than that, the bloody Pattern of Existence might want you to! Not saying everyone has to like her, but it isn't as if the character doesn't make sense in context.

Re: the whole 'hawk' thing (they're everywhere lately): My mother gave me a minor rundown of hawk-superstitions this afternoon - They're all about looking out for your interest, being perceptive (supposedly). So, Berelain's hovering around and waiting for the opportune moment. IIRC, it gets pretty obvious later in WH or CoT that she's dropping the whole wanna-poach-Faile's-husband angle. Personally, I'd think it's more of a habit even this point, maybe even a game. (...Berelain's bored with the arc, too?)

* to be honest, I like Berelain, full stop. And Faile. ... I might be the only one. so, grain of salt, and grain of ...something that reacts horribly with salt, but we all knew I fail at impartial discussion anyway.

Hi Leigh. Knowing how you adore this part of the story, I get that the scales might be tipped more toward "commentary as duty" than enjoyment in such segments. Still, I think many of us are well enough steeped in the story to agree that, for example, Nevarin could have been more sympathetic, or Arganda shouldn't have been impelled by racial profiling, etc. To me it seems that these facts are "on the surface", as it were. Meanwhile, there are some potentially significant tidbits tucked in these not-so-loved chapters, which seem to me to merit mention.

Masema. Well, I'm with many others thinking that Perrin could as easily have invited Masema to his camp (hundred followers or not), have one of the Wise Ones wrap him up in Air, have the Asha'man make the gateway, and get that bit over with. But so many other subplots depend on things happening this way, so there it is. I still think He should have been allowed to face Rand, and learn what a dog's dinner he'd made of things, before being assassinated out of hand. The setup deserved a better payoff, and this is one of the very few bits of the story that disappoint me.

Balwer. Brings the news like nobody else. It's a good device for Perrin to be sure that Rand is onto the latest Seanchan threat, and that he has engaged them. Also, Whitecloaks roaming in retreat from the Seanchan, and the start of Perrin thinking that Balwer just has an emotional problem with the Children, not knowing what we know.

Gaul. Yes, he (along with the Maidens) is expecting to be accused or harassed as a proxy for the "savages" who raided them and stole their ladies. Poor Perrin, nobody realizes that he is a straight shooter until it's almost too late. What's very important not to overlook in this scene is the action of the Maidens. We've been taught well that the Aiel take personal contact in public very seriously. Kissing your fingers and touching someone else makes an extremely strong statement. This is not a show of sympathy about Faile, the Aiel have slightly more sympathy than the wolves. This is recognition for Perrin's ji, for treating them as allies first and only, for never once considering them in any way similar to the Shaido. Arganda's irrational actions here are clearly meant to provide a contrast to Perrin's, to highlight his honorable behavior.

Berelain. Perrin is the one acting badly? Hmmm.

She jerked as if he had struck her. Color bloomed in her cheeks, and she changed again, becoming supple and willowy in her saddle. “Not childish, Perrin,” she murmured, her voice rich and amused. “Two women contesting over you, and you the prize? I would think you’d be flattered.”

Excuse me, contesting? He's supposed to be flattered that this tramp is harassing him? He's married, Berelain has long since lost that contest, and her insistence on continuing it long after Perrin has made clear she's a zero to him, that makes Perrin the bad guy. Hokay. I try to imagine some woman doing this to my wife and I, but it's so far beyond ridiculous that I cannot.

Aram. I don't think hardly anybody, prior to the early chapters of KoD, saw that Aram was going so far around that particular bend, just that he was Lost, in the Tinker sense, and as Elyas said, without a strong enough foundation. Yep, plenty of warnings, but subtle enough not to think he'd actually been drinking Masema's Kool-Aid and would attack Perrin for a darkfriend. As to the faith-oriented mindset bit, my own experience, and the close observation of thousands of others, shows that weathering storms is much easier with an anchor than without, and that either sailing without one, or supposing yourself to be your own anchor, makes for very choppy seas. BTW, those rules aren't all that mutable, just that we humans are allowed, via free will, to listen or ignore as we choose.

Last, but not least, the wolves. Attempting to channel the inner wolf, imagine the conversation from their POV. Out minding your own business, not paying attention to random two-legs wandering about, and suddenly Young Bull is on the line, and in a panic. "No, brother, you know that if they don't bother us we don't bother them, nobody here has noticed your Falcon. Let it go, and carry on." Do you really expect wolves to have human-like sympathies?

Wait, that was next to last, the real Last is this. Do you actually, really, honestly know of anybody who believes that all Muslims are terrorists? Can I borrow some of that straw?

Ah yes. I had forgotten that Berelain was a sur Paendrag. That gun has sort of a Chekhovian vibe to it, doesn't it? Although in what way this could come into play, I can't imagine (point taken, @70 OwMasha).

Now (after KoD/tGS) that Perrin has escaped from the Plotline of Doom and also hopefully from The World Can Die crazy (thanks, JennB), I'll be interested to see which direction his character goes. The CoT ebook cover was actually so evocative that it provoked me to thinking -- we really haven't yet seen the playout of the moment when he threw away the axe. Will we now? In what form? My gut feeling is that Perrin has a more complicated and darker destiny than simply leading an army of wolves into TG and then picking up a broken crown and spanking Faile happily ever after (ducks).

@73 Freelancer:

I think you have the right call with the Maidens.

But when you mentioned "racial profiling" I couldn't help getting a flash of the guy from the KoD cover pulling over a couple of tall dudes with veils around their necks, telling them they were going 66 in a 65, and asking what they were doing in Jersey on a Thursday night anyway ... my mind works like that sometimes.

Re: the Sur Paendrag thingy
It might carry some weight with the Seanchan. Or it might not. Seanchan aristocracy is also extremely achievement oriented. They not only have to have the bloodline for it, they must also prove themselves worthy of it. Berelain is a capable woman of course. I wouldn't admire her if she wasn't. But the Seanchan standards are ... strange...

I have to agree this is the most annoying plotline in the the entire series. It turns Perrin from a guy whos trying to do the best he can to a guy who is rediculously obsessive.
I also feel that he is totally in the wrong with Berelain. He is pretty stupid not to tell flirting from sincerity.
Aram was always bad news from the start. Never liked him.

Nothing much to say about the chapters in particular, but reading through the comments I'm wondering if people's reactions as to whether or not Perrin overreacted here is divided based the reader's own marital status.

Seems to me that the married readers are more sympathetic to Perrin's reaction?

My impression of that scene was that when Perrin says "Find her for me, Gaul", Gaul hears "You have no toh to me. Find her for me, Gaul". As to why the Aiel might think they have toh to Perrin, I can't give a good explanation. You know how Aiel are. Perhaps it's just that they were unfairly blamed by one group of wetlanders (the Ghealdean) for no reason they could understand, and were afraid that this other wetlander would also blame them.

I know, it's not a very satisfying explanation. I think your 'touching him veiled' is just as good.

I see MuleHeadedLummox@26 has already addressed this quite nicely.

Randalator@14

There was no hint at any bed-comforting in that scene. Quite the opposite...

If Lini had spoken those words, there would have been no such hint. When Berelain does, there is more than a hint. The context matters, and the past actions of the person who is speaking the words is part of the context.

lostinshadow@40
JennB@39

I also don't understand Annoura's statement. In fact, I don't get Annoura at all. She is always too busy being aloof and mysterious. I don't get why an Aes Sedai would help someone spread rumors and lies to try to help break up someone else's marriage.

Yeah, Annoura's behavior also seemed strange to me. The only way it makes sense is if she believes Berelain's sympathies were offered in good faith, and is angry at Perrin for rebuffing her needlessly. We might even speculate that Annoura thought this was finally an opportunity to put an end to the power struggle between Berelain and Faile - and Perrin ruined it. And Berelain even offers a formal truce a bit later, despite this rebuff. But Perrin rebuffs her and ruins Annoura's plan. Hence she calls him a fool.

bawambi@41

Annoura is Black and is using Compulsion on Berelain re: Perrin to sow Chaos.

That would explain SO MUCH! :)

JennB@49
Don't forget Mr. Ear Collector crazy. What was his name again?

subwoofer@63

And I am just putting this out there- but if Masema was such hot stuff in the prophetting department, why the heck didn't he see his death coming a mile off?

Masema is modeled on the Muhammadan model of prophecy (This is what God says you should do, everyone obey me in the meantime), not on the Nostradamian model of prophecy (This is what will happen in the future).

Perrin still doesn't realize that it is not just about a delay, that bringing Masema and his rabble into Andor would cause a massive war! Argh!!! I guess that I should be glad that we were spared _that_.

BTW, why is Masema having this "Fain-ish" effect on his followers - i.e. them becoming dirty, etc? Would it have been impossible for some of them to regain their sanity? Most of his fellow Shienarans did leave him still in possession of their wits, after all, and they have been longer with him than anybody...

The wolves not having anything useful to say struck me from the first as _yet another_ (Aaah!) huge cop-out designed to prolong this Storyline of Doom. Because, yea, they couldn't have been unaware of the big congregation of humans in the Shaido camp.

I don't see Berelein becoming a Seanchan Empress, needless to say ;). Aren't people who stand in line of succession after Tuon all descended from Luthair? Berelein is descended from the youngest son, whose parentage was never wholly proven to boot.

Aram - I have known since ACOS, if not earlier, that he was being set up for something very bad... and IMHO all that multi-book ominous set-up went off with a complete whimper. He didn't even do any damage and at no point during their fight did I feel that Perrin was truly in danger. Meh.

Megaduck:

Umm, the AS _have_ been helping, quite a lot throughout the books. Or did you forget the defense of Two Rivers et al.?
But those currently attached to Perrin have nothing to offer at this point, as they can't Travel and most of them are under WO's thumb anyway.

Speaking of WOs I don't get what their deal is and why they behave like such giant assholes in that instance.
Another thing that I seriously wonder about is why their fellow WOs didn't contact them during this unending story arc and teach them Travelling. I mean, surely they were chosen so that the dreamwalkers could contact at least one of them, right? Right?!

Does Arganda love his queen? That would explain why he goes crazy like Perrin and Tallanvor.
The rescue plot isn't really that long by number of chapters. The problem is that it is spread out over too many books. We had to wait for the next book several times and the plot still wasn't finished.

Regarding Aram, I always expected him to snap eventually, once he became enamored with Masema, but I was not expecting it when he finally attacked Perrin! If you ask me, both Aram and Masema's threads in the Pattern got snipped pretty abruptly. While I understand(to some extent) why Masema's place in the plot was deserved, I do think Aram got short shift. All he ever did this whole plot line is either tag along with Perrin like a dog at heel, or be told by Perrin to stay behind because he was "unstable". Really, I can't recall anything else of importance he does before being killed. And I guess it just makes me sad because, while annoying somewhat, he was also a lot cooler before he picked up the sword. I guess having your whole family slaughtered will do that to someone. And I feel terrible because no one ever tried to really talk to Aram and comfort him and encourage him and befriend him. Only Masema. *sorrowful*

Wolves: I hadn't given them much thought in this chapter until this reread. It was a pretty brief exchange between them and Perrin. Now that it's been brought up, I can't help but contemplate how a more extensive use of the wolves in this chapter could've brought a quicker and more compelling resolution to this Plot.

Perrin needs to come to grips with his Wolf side, learn to use T'A'R and become whole and balanced. If there had been more cooperation between Perrin and the wolves in the set up for the rescue of Faile, it could've expanded Perrin's understanding and sped things up.

Since I don't think RJ goofs up on things like this, I'm starting to get a bad feeling about Perrin. I've never not liked him, never thought him bad or inadequate, just emotionally challenged, I guess. But I'm beginning to see him as myopic, obsessed, and extremely slow to see the urgency of the larger battle looming on the horizon and the preparation needed for it.

Of course he has to rescue his wife, but his statements about The rest of the world can "go hang", scares me. If anyone of the tripod is going to fall, I'm betting it's Perrin. He's becoming much more of a loose cannon in my mind. Hopefully, I'll be proven wrong in ToM.

lostinshadow@81:

I can't say whether being married or not colors my reaction to the Perrin/Berelain interaction. I just don't think her actions are honorable at all.
One of the unwritten rules of honorable behavior is that you don't poach other peoples' husbands/wives. Period. Her actions here disgust me and lower my estimation of her Statesmen qualities. So childish and stupid.

85 probably includes a link that was flagged as spam. If the moderator deems it ok, it might reappear along with its link.

Re Aram: never managed to like him from the moment he appeared on scene so I can't say I was sorry for his demise. His purpose as a character seems to be to illustrate the point that Elyas makes in these chapters, which is that if you take away a person's faith (I don't mean this is a religious sense, perhaps the foundation of his worldview would be more appropriate though very wordy), without helping them find a satisfying alternative, it undermines that person's sense of self; which in turn can become very destructive.

not sure that makes as much sense on paper (screen) as it did in my chocolate fuddled brain.

Tek, what I meant was whether being married makes people more likely to sympathize with Perrin's reaction to Berelain's supposed offering of sympathy in this particular chapter. I think an overwhelming majority of readers dislike Berelain's general interaction with Perrin.

From the comments beginning with our illustrious leader (Berelain: Okay, she is shortly going to make me see red, but I have to say that here it really is Perrin being the dick, and not her.), I got the sense that non-married commentators seemed to feel that while Berelain's actions are not at all on, Perrin's particular reaction to her expression of sympathy was over the top while married commentators seem to think that Perrin was perfectly justified in "losing it" with Berelain.

Regarding Perrin as the weak link in general: I think you and I may have agreed on this point in an earlier discussion thread (maybe the open thread) but to reiterate I too have a bad feeling that there is a darker reason behind this plot of doom and that Perrin is being set up to possibly betray Rand at a crucial moment.

Holy sh*t. On Brandon's twitter account, someone posted that he thought there was a description of darkness around Taim in the WH prologue that seemed suspiciously like Rand's darkness in TGS. Brandon's response - "You're the first to notice that that I've seen." So Taim can channel the TP??????

yes, there's definitely a Min viewing as you say. We still haven't seen the second instance so perhaps Perrin's attitude that the rest of the world can go hang as long as his Faile is safe will come into play here and Perrin will pick saving Faile over saving Rand (thus betraying him).

Even as I have this ominous feeling about Perrin, I also can't see RJ plotting the story so that any one of the three friends betrays the other(s) so maybe the plot of doom is more there to teach Perrin the lesson that he can't simply panic and chuck the rest of the world to hell every time his wife is in danger - in poor Perrin's defense the glimpses of him we were given in tGS seemed to indicate that he was coming to the realization that he'd been suffering from tunnel vision - and thus hopefully Perrin will be there the second time Rand needs him, even if in so doing he might be putting his precious love in danger.

regarding guesses as to what this second instance may be - I am sure there are many theories out there in the various WoT sites (I only really follow this one) but I would guess it has something to do with the Black Tower and Rand's maddening willful disregard thereof.

I don't, but I was really surprised by their nonchalance about his losing his mate. Given that wolves mate for life and all, I thought they'd be more inclined to be sympathetic about the loss of a mate.

lostinshadow @ 81:

Seems to me that the married readers are more sympathetic to Perrin's reaction?

Well, for the record, I first read this book long before I was married and I've always been on Perrin's side on the matter. No sympathy for Berelain in this scene at all, either before or after.

As a guy who is taken, my response to this:

“Two women contesting over you, and you the prize? I would think you’d be flattered.”

would have been, "Lady, there is no contest. That game ended a long time ago and you've never been anything more than a loser."

Of course, that probably would have been the wrong thing to say but once I've made my choice (as Perrin did) there IS no contest. Plain and simple.

Isilel @ 83:

Perrin still doesn't realize that it is not just about a delay, that bringing Masema and his rabble into Andor would cause a massive war! Argh!!!

When things were normal it would have. With things the way they are with the succession and the chaos and the Borderlanders and all that, there wouldn't have been a massive war at all.

In fact, if Perrin had actually done that, I bet Elayne would have finished her god awful plotline all the quicker. She could have used Perrin far more effectively to her purposes than she did the Borderlanders.

BTW, why is Masema having this "Fain-ish" effect on his followers - i.e. them becoming dirty, etc? Would it have been impossible for some of them to regain their sanity?

What do you mean? That kind of madness happens all the time in the real world. It's happening right now in the US. The Prophet's effect on his people is one of the most believable parts of WoT for me.

or is it to show that Taim is some kind of darkfriend. Isn't the darkness around Rand not so much a reflection of his use of the TP but more of the growing darkness in his soul? So darkness around Taim need not necessarily mean he channels TP, but could merely indicate that he is not a very nice person (which we all knew already)

though to confuse myself further, isn't the darkness around Rand also part of how Rand as "fisher king" effects the world around him? if Taim too has a similar kind of darkness does this mean that Taim also has some kind of link to the land where he too can affect it just by being?

We are not sure what is up. All we have is someone commenting on Taim darkness in WH, him likening it to Rand in TGS and BWS saying that this is the first person to have picked up on this observation.

Does it mean Taim is a Foresaken or heading in that direction per direction from Moridin? Or can it be Moridin himself in hiding? Or is BWS not in fact confirming that the observation means something? Stay tuned.

Ishmayl@9: Perrin’s reaction is understandable, even justified, but it’s still not helpful. I’d applaud Berelain getting her karmic comeuppance under other circumstances, but here and now the last thing Perrin needs to be doing is lashing out at one of the few times she’s apparently willing to put away the mind games. Do remember that if he had been paying any attention at all, his magic emotion-sensing nose would presumably tell him she was being honest there.
--

jcmnyu@11: I think Berelain’s pursuit is a mixture of different things- partly trying to one-up Faile, partly a genuine attraction to Perrin, partly outright enjoying the mind games (in part, Perrin’s a very different sort of person than she’s been dealing with her whole life), and partly because once she’s committed herself to it, she’s unwilling to concede defeat.
--

On Aram: his going destructively crazypants was foreshadowed a mile away, but the whole “Perrin’s a shadowspawn” aspect of it seemed very much out of left field.
--

Pendragon@52: It all fits together, really- if he was stopping them, it would be because he didn’t trust them to find Faile, which would be because he blamed them in some way for her abduction (though almost certainly not guilt-by-association, but more a “you were supposed to guard her, and failed” dynamic).
--

Isilel@83: On Masema’s followers- it’s not that he has a Fain-esque magical corruption effect, but rather that the people who follow him are mostly fanatics who believe in total devotion to the prophet to the neglect of everything else, hygiene included, along with perhaps a sprinkling of nasty, sadistic opportunists. Whereas the other Shienarans stuck around for entirely different reasons.
-
On Wise Ones: Dreamwalkers are very few and far between, even within the Wise Ones; Perrin’s group seems not to have any (and remember, it wasn’t supposed to be a long-term mission). If Rand’s WOs could manage any sort of contact with Perrin’s, it would probably only be on the level of “shout a quick message into their dreams” like Egwene did that once.
--

birgit@84: Even if Arganda doesn’t love his queen like Tallanvor loves his, she’s still the person he’s given his oath to protect, and indeed to die for if necessary. Even without a romantic element, she’s still basically the center of his existence. Plus his ruler and the only remnant of law and normalcy in a country overrun by chaos. Everything’s gone to hell, but as long as he was guarding his queen he was still doing his duty. Yeah, he's desperate.
--

On Taim and the TP: yes, we’ve seen it associated with Moridin, too. I don’t recall specific instances with Moridin-as-Moridin (though that’s likely just memory failure on my part), but it was one of the most obvious and defining aspects of his appearance back when he was Ishamael, under the full effects of TP use.

(On a separate note, I mentioned the Taim-is-using-the-TP idea just last week, in the part one comments. So, yay?)

Great information about Taim...stay tuned to next weeks episode (ok...October/November) for the exciting conclusion to this story.

General comments...(this is basically the post that the weaves were not completely undone) I can understand every characters response to the events in these chapters...not agree, mind you, just understand.

Perrin just found out his wife has been captured (or possibly killed) by the Shaido Aiel. He is aware of some of the atrocities committed by them in other battles/sieges and is clearly, and understandably distraught. His reaction to Berelain (get to her in a moment) is absolutely in character, expected, and justified. I think it is a testament to his faith in the others he trusts around him that pull him back from the precipice.

Berelain continues behaving the way she always has. Why should now make anything different?

Arganda just lost his queen, the one person he was sworn to protect. He wants information and he wants it now. Likely, lack of knowledge about the Aiel leads him to believe that "questioning" other Aiel (maybe he is thinking spies) will provide him that information. Incorrect, yes but also understandable in the heat of the moment.

Masema is a religious zealot that has no room left in his brain for ideas that he has not already decidied on are either pro-DR (good) or anti-DR (The Devil!!!). Yes, I just compared Masema to Kathy Bates. And 2 out of 3 of his followers (ok, more like 99.9% including Aram) recommend consistent use of this product.

42@Wetlandernw: It suddenly occurs to me that Perrin mostly deals with individuals, and "judges" them (not the right word, but you know...) on how they behave individually, not as a group or a culture. Am I right? No, I think you are correct. He takes individuals as they are, not as he wants them to be.

This actually helps him in many ways. Remember Alliandre's comments on how he is formidable?

48@ Wetlandernw: I cannot remember where, I think in The Dragon Reborn right after the Stone fell, someone states that Berelain has been using her sexuality as well as brains to keep Tear out of Mayene. Definitely agree.

54. thewindrose & 57. Renegade248: Min had a viewing about Berelain falling head over heels in love with a man dressed in all white. There has been speculation on a gai'shain, but I believe it will be Galad.

59. subwoofer: Ha! I remember that song when it first came out! It drove my father crazy every time it came on the radio, and at that time it was about every 20 minutes.

70. OwMasha: Yes, and Perrin is the only one she can get to after Rand chased her out the his bedroom. She totally dismisses Mat as "being too much like me."

81. lostinshadow: Not married, haven't been for over 20 years and do not intend to be.

91. Fiddler: yep, twice. They believe Dumai's Wells was the first.

92. RobMRobM: I was wondering about that myself. Just forgot to post it. Actually it did not make much sense until after knowing how channeling the TP affects Rand. Curiouser and Curiouser.

96. lostinshadow: Possibly

In addition on Berelain, I am listening to the books at home (right now the CoS) and in the scenes after Rand deposes Colavaere and has left the throne room, Perrin and Faile are, well discussing matters.

When Perrin tells Faile that he just wanted Berelain's thief catcher's, Faile blows up and tells Perrin that Berelain has spread it about that when Perrin was out hunting before Rand was kidnapped he was supposed to have been out in the country at a manor for them to be having fun.

In this light, it does not suprise me Berelain lets it be thought Perrin did more than just sleep in her tent later.

Re:Re:Taim's "darkness"
This would make Linda a happy camper over at 13D:)

OwMasha I see your link and raise you another one. This is a good one looking at both Faile and Berelain(and it is really long. Hmm, I could copy and paste it here and boost my numbers...nahhh;)). Also, it looks like Linda is starting to think that Berelain may be a *dark friend. (Last entry in the article.)
*Note this is speculation, but interesting!

It's suprising to hear Brandon say he had not heard anyone mention Taim's darkness aura in the prologue of WH. As Fiddler said, Linda at 13'th depository has had her theory of Moridin = Taim for a while now. After I read that theory it makes perfect sense. We get very few Moridin PoV's and he isn't on-screen much at all except for forsaken meetings really.

On the other hand, Moridin in retrospect really is getting more screen time by posing as Taim with a TP weave that 'turns' him into Taim personage. We know that Moridin craves knowledge and desires to suffocate the Fisher King by playing both sides, which he does very neatly as Taim. Lews Therin rages everytime he is near Taim, one possible hidden clue since Lews Therin/Moridin are natural enemies. So the matchup is Moridin/Lews Therin and Rand/Taim. Also Taim is the only character that uses the 'so called' Aiel usage, just like Moridin.

On re-reads, anytime Taim is on screen picture him as Moridin and for me at least, it's pretty easy to see now :). If you go to Dragonmount Forums under structured discussion on the Taim topic, around page 25 of that thread there is other clues/evidence mentioned that Moridin is Taim as well.

Isilel @83 BTW, why is Masema having this "Fain-ish" effect on his followers - i.e. them becoming dirty, etc? Would it have been impossible for some of them to regain their sanity? I sort of assumed that he mostly attracted the "fringe elements" anyway; those who were slightly nuts to start with, those who wanted to escape their dull lives and would follow anything that would get them away, those who really aren't prone to thinking for themselves anyway. But... that's just an unformulated assumption, because I never really thought about it all that much. I wonder if it could be backed up by textual and logical evidence... To start with, the Shienaran warrior types are generally fairly well-disciplined and not much prone to mindlessly following anyone, so that's their excuse for escaping with sanity intact. What do we know about the rest of Masema's rabble? I'll have to do some searching, unless someone has the answer already. Anyone? Show of hands?

Wolves... they probably do know about the massing of the Shaido, but don't have any particular reason to connect "Young Bull's she" with them. Perrin didn't know enough to ask about a huge concentration.

Totally agree - not seeing Berelain as the new Empress. I do expect her Hawkwing descent to be significant in some way, but not that. I would guess she'll be recognized as "of the Blood" with less kerfuffle than most other rulers, and Mayene will achieve greater security and prominence because of it. Alternatively, they could decide that her name and the Mayene symbol are challenges to the Empress, and she'll have to flee for her life - presumably to Galad. :)

lostinshadow @88 - It made sense to me, because it's more or less what I was thinking when I posted before. Yeah.

lostinshadow @90 - Wanna do a poll? Marital status, and standing on Perrin's side or Berelain's in this scene only. Here's me:

Married, Perrin

RobMRobM @92 - It's a distinct possibility, I guess; whether he's allowed to on a regular basis, or has been allowed to one time, it sounds probable.

lostinshadow & Fiddler - I theorize that it's a setup - Perrin will face a situation where it looks like a flat-out choice between Faile and Rand, and he'll realize that he must choose Rand or saving Faile won't matter. I thought he was starting to move that direction in TGS, so maybe he reaches his low point in this plot and can rise above it and see more clearly after this. It doesn't have to be an unending downward spiral.

Back to the darkness around Taim - I don't think it can be a "general darkfriendliness" or "evil person" thing; we've see plenty of other people who fit that category but don't have the dark aura. I don't know that we've been unequivocably told that the dark aura is related to the TP, but it certainly didn't show up around Rand until (very soon) after he used the TP, and the only other person we've seen it around is Taim (to the best of my knowledge). We do know that the True Power is "the essence of the Dark One" so it seems pretty reasonable that it would have a certain effect on those who use it. On the other hand, have we ever seen the dark aura around Moridin? I think we did with Ishamael, but it always came across as if he were doing it on purpose.

I've always thought that the plot line of doom was one of RJ's more brilliant pieces of writing. Part of the attraction to this series for me has been how lifelike the situations and people are. This is perhaps the perfect example of that (how many of us have been in situations where everyone around us are stupid crazy people? How many of us have later thought back on that moment and realized that we were a bit of an idiot as well?). The plot line of doom is a good portrayal of humanity at its stupidest (and craziest). I still think it is way to long, and it is my least favorite plot arc in the entire series, but that makes the rest of the books so much better by comparison.

I was really surprised by their nonchalance about his losing his mate. Given that wolves mate for life and all, I thought they'd be more inclined to be sympathetic about the loss of a mate.

The wolves meet their mates again in the Wolf Dream. Even if Perrin goes to the Wolf Dream as a Wolfbrother / to TAR as a Hero when he dies, Faile probably doesn't.

Ishy's shadows probably were a version of the black ropes that protect from the Taint. If Taim was a Darkfriend channeler protected from the Taint for some years before the Cleansing, he might still have that kind of darkness around him.

If Berelain's man in white is Galad it would fit that the new Whitecloak commander and a descendant from Hawkwing rule Amadicia under the Seanchan.

Silvertip @ 35
The best counterargument that there's things going on with her we don't know is her relationship with the Aiel, which I haven't yet heard a satisfactory explanation of (but would love to if anybody has one).

Maybe not a satisfactory explanation but I have one. Berelain is a Highly Intelligent, Highly Competent, Highly Determined young lady. Everything the Aiel culture respects, especially in a wise one where their status is based on how much willpower they have, something Berelain has in spades. She is also not prone to the cultural superiority most wetlanders have when confronted with the Aiel and is willing to meet them on their own terms and is probably flexible enough to understand that culture.

The fact that Rhurac saw Berelain the same way he saw Egwene, as a preconscious daughter, probably helped her with Amys as well.

Simply put, they respect her and she respects them back.

(Which interestingly, is rather rare in WOT. People get to together for a lot of reasons but Respect seems rather absent.)

Hello all. Finally managed to catch up and there are lots of interesting posts considering the fact that most people seem to find the plot here so not.

Thank you Leigh for reading what we don't really want to again, and keeping it interesting.
I've decided I will re-read WH again, catch up and maybe even have something intelligent to say. Hey it could happen!
Anyway Taim as Moridin. Yep that’s where my penny’s being bet.
And for Wetlander’s survey.
Married – Perrin

But Berelain is quite sincere. There's no other way to read her statement that two women are contesting, and he is the prize. She still expects to win him away from Faile. Ogier's oath on it.

lostinshadow@81

I'm wondering if people's reactions as to whether or not Perrin overreacted here is divided based the reader's own marital status.

You're on to somethere there. I have an alternative analysis for you. Perhaps it is that those more inclined toward monogamy, and therefore likely to get married, are going to sympathize with Perrin, while those less inclined to marriage lean toward Berelain's position.

About Gaul, that's it precisely. Perrin shows that he holds no blame, no assigned anger, no animosity at all for these Aiel, and they are extremely glad that the man who leads this large and mixed party takes an honorable position in their regard. Added to it is the ji he earns in their eyes for going straight to them expecting to solve the problem. "If anyone can find her, you can." This is basically saying that they carry his honor.

Isilel@83

I think that to a great degree, the people who took up after Masema were already cast-offs, misfits, and scoundrels, much less than that he turned them into that ala Fain. Hari the ear-collector didn't become that by following Masema, but Masema's overpowering influence wherever he is gives liberty to Hari's darkest impulses under the name of "doing the Lord Dragon's business". Almost like Whitecloaks without the white, and without any politically-driven need for restraint, under the supposed banner of the Dragon.

birgit@84

I think Arganda's passion isn't personal toward Alliandre, just national. I could be wrong, but there's not been an inkling of it (and there have been numerous references to senior military or political advisors to female rulers who are also consorts). And his crazy about Alliandre is as sharp as Perrin's or Tallanvor's, but much shallower.

Tektonica@87

Yes, Perrin has been fighting a double-sided battle with himself since very early on. In TGH and TDR there are numerous internal POVs of him accepting that he must do what he must do, that he's linked with Rand, and that he is important even though he doesn't want to be. And almost every time, immediately afterward he is pushing against his Wolfbrotherness. So it boils down to "Yep, I have been chosen with a duty to the Light, and I will do my duty however I may. Why won't the wolves leave me alone?"

toryx@94

Given that wolves mate for life and all, I thought they'd be more inclined to be sympathetic about the loss of a mate.

Consider that they, somewhat like the Aiel, view life is both this mundane temporal and the Wolfdream. Even dying they live, and this is underscored by their comment to Perrin to meet her again in the dream. It isn't unsympathetic, it's pragmatic. To the wolves, it's simply that she no longer walks the waking world, but she isn't GONE - gone. I think it makes perfect sense.

Looking Glass@102

I again have to disagree. Berelain's comments in response to Perrin demanding she drop her childish game shows that she is in no way "willing to put away the mind games", as you say. Also, whether the text mentions Perrin's nose or not, he would have altered his response if he sensed true sympathy from her, so I would tend to believe that her appearance of commiseration is appearance only.

EarthandIce@105

You are right, is was Moiraine who commented on Berelain parlaying her beauty with her statesmanship to keep Tear at bay.

Wetlandernw@111

And you got the same read on Masema, but I'm not going to excise those comments.

birgit@116

And you have me beat on the wolves. Drat, I have to stop having morning meetings around here...

I posed the question but Wetlandernw is doing all the work - I like this (in exchange, I'll be leaving a tiramisu in the bunker for Wetlandernw)

mentioned it before but to make it formal
married, Perrin

oh and Wetlandernw I'm sure we would all appreciate your always insightful comments along with the results.

Freelancer@125 interesting take, I'm going to mull that over for a while. I was thinking more along the lines of anyone in a committed relationship being more sensitive to (and perhaps more personally familiar with) the kinds of games that Berelain is playing with Perrin and Faile.

schrodinger@114 that's spot on. but it doesn't necessarily make reading the plot more enjoyable. actually might make it worse because it echoes so much with situations in real life (much like why many have such a reaction to cranky pants - she reminds them of someone who drives them crazy in real life)

Among other things I replied to lostinshadow that not only marital status, but possibly cultural background/age may be a factor too, where the whole Perrin/Berelain thing was involved.

------------------------------------------------
Repost from .85:

"lostinshadow@81:

Seems to me that the married readers are more sympathetic to Perrin's reaction?

Interesting question. I suspect cultural background and age may be a factor too, but I'd prefer not to go there.

I like Berelain, and after the battle of Emond's Field Faile's ok too. (I've thought different about Faile, but opinions can change).

On a side note, I find it interesting to see Faile thinking about applying to use the same kind of tactics Berelain has been using. How she was thinking about using Rolan during capture isn't that much different from how Berelain has been protecting Mayene from Tear. It's just on a smaller scale.

Berelain/Perrin/Annoura: *shrugs*. I think Annoura saw a missed chance to end the whole Faile/Berelain thing here; she is Grey after all. Too bad Perrin lashed out, even if it is understandable. If Perrin had been more savvy in politics, he probably would (and should) have accepted the truce offer later on. That would have been the first step in ending this 'war'.

Poll: Married. Think they're both being childish. Berelain should know better, Perrin should control himself better. They both need a (OMG he's going to say it) sound spanking. If I have to pick a side, I choose . . . Annoura.

Finally, a fellow Berelain supporter! Although I have to say, in general, I think Berelain's a punk. In this specific, isolated instance though, I take her side over Perrin's. I think she was being compassionate and extending feelings of sympathy to Perrin. It certainly doesn't help her that due to her usual behaviour, this came off as flirtatious. Indignant at Perrin's rebuff of her kindness, she slips back into "game mode", coolly viewing him as a prize once more.

Perrin's reaction is definitely understood, nonetheless.

And I'm a little worried being on the opposite side of you here, Wetlander. At least you can't respond to me for a few days...*laughs evilly*

I too like Berelain, it's just her whole approach to the Faile/Perrin thing drives me batty. But then again the way Faile approaches it also drives me batty. and Perrin, though I am most sympathetic to him, is not that much better with all his emotional whinging about the situation. Which is why I subsequently narrowed down my question to the particular instance in the chapter.

You're probably right, cultural background and age probably does play a factor - hey I'm an anthro major, my BA prohibits me from ever admitting that cultural background would not be a factor. With regard to that, I would guess that as age goes up sympathy toward all three would go down.

Continuing on from your side note - I have no problem with Berelain using whatever charms are available to her to protect her people. to me that just says good leader (another reason why her childishness re Faile and Perrin is so annoying). and you're right Faile also uses whatever charms are available to her to protect herself and her 'servants' as much as possible.

I do not think that Taim is Moridin or any other forsaken. I believe, as someone else posted, that the darkness around him is probably the protection of saidin. He is protected from saidin or so I suspect, which would make him a new dreadlord in my eyes.

Oh yea, this story arc is pretty freakin' annoying, now that I get a really good look at it. I gotta say, and not to trample on this guy's feelings for his chick, but I think that Perrin is taking it a leeeetle overboard-ish. I mean, talk about first love. These two have known each other for about a whole....hmmm....six months? Ten, maybe?? (Ok, my time sense may be off a little, but you get the point) He needs to take a chill pill, and get unbent. And yes, he is totally neglecting the wolves!! Also not thrilled about that.

Sympathy from an Aiel??? Hell to the no... sympathy is for chumps who don't have to squeeze water out of tree branches!!!!

And those Shaido...they're really buggin' out. Talk about diverging from the norm. That bitch Sevanna would put my three-legged pygmy dog in white if they crossed paths. On a nice day. Sheesh. Hope they get whatfo.

I have an alternative analysis for you. Perhaps it is that those more inclined toward monogamy, and therefore likely to get married, are going to sympathize with Perrin, while those less inclined to marriage lean toward Berelain's position.

That's an interesting thought but based on my own outlook (which may not accurately represent the whole) I'd be inclined to disagree. Namely because I was not married at the time that I first read this book and I remember distinctly being on Perrin's side. And also in that even though I am married, I'm actually hypocritically not in favor of marriage as an institution. I have my own reasons for doing so despite my personal feelings on it which I'm not going to go into here but I'm as disinclined toward marriage as anyone.

Nevertheless, I've always supported Perrin in the instance in question.

Re: The wolves, I suspect you're right. On the other hand, I thought I remembered that they are mournful when a member of their pack dies. Also, they seem really quick to assume that Perrin's mate has died. But I do agree that they're ultimately pragmatic about the whole thing.

I'm actually moving over to Scotland in a few months(for work) and having Scottish blood, I figure wearing a kilt may be in my future. I'm going to say yes, I'd wear a kilt, but it wouldn't be a regular occurance. Too much to worry about on a day-to-day basis.

Kilt survey - even though I am mostly Irish with a bit of Scots....probably not.

Married - Berelain in the up to the point where Perrin speaks up out lound; Perrin thereafter.

To explain, even though she acts like an ass throughout this series of books and is a huge *headdesk* for me, here Berelain appropriately compliments and offers support to Perrin; and while it would have been understandable and appropriate if he had merely flinched and withdrawn in light of her past activites, Perrin went off the rails when he openly voiced that this particular instance was a continuation of past gamesmanship. Berelain then went off the rails herself with the "you should be flattered" comment, which is wildly inappropriate, especially for a man concerned that his wife has been killed. So, yes, I'm having it both ways.

Shimrod @ 123
Should Perrin have snapped at Berelain? No, it was counterproductive. I do think that he had the right to snap at her though. As a matter of fact, I wish he’d done this sooner. She and Faile are both acting childishly here and using someone else as their game board, and for what? Misplaced pride.

I think Perrin needs to put his foot down to both of them and state he is not a game board and to stop treating him as such.

Beren @ 132
Berelain, maybe. I don’t think Perrin needs a spanking right now though. She’s acting childish out of pride, he’s acting childish out of stress. Spanking or other forms of physical coercion don’t decrease stress, they add to it, and that’s the last thing you want to do when someone is already on the edge. (Sort of what Cads is doing wrong with Rand IMHO)

What Perrin needs right now is someone to talk to and who’ll say ‘She’ll be all right.’

Freelancer @ 126
I do recall that quote and was going to use it in my example but as I remember, that was one of the maidens who said that. (I don’t have my books handy right now or I’d check.)

Overall I like Berelain. Still, her persuit of Perrin has been wrong, IMO. But all participants in the Faile-Perrin-Berelain game have been at fault.

There is one thing we shouldn't forget about Berelain's attemts to storm Perrin's Tower and knock Faile off it (snicker ;)). She has been very open about it. Everyone is aware of "the game": the players (Ber, Faile), the ball/goal (Perrin), the audience (in-book, readers).
So far, IMO, Faile has chosen to play. Perhaps besides enjoying it, she is confident of having the home advantage.

Okay, I appreciate the Kilt survey Sulin. You know I do, but it only covers half the question and half the posters.
I'd like to expand the poll, and volunteer my Spear Sister to keep track of both sets of results. :P

I've always liked Berelain as the leader of Mayene. She looks out for her country. She is young and used to using her, um, assets, as needed to protect her countries' interests. She is a help to Rand administering Carhein with Rhurac. I have no problem with her in those roles at all. I even understand her motivation for wanting to be "close" to one of the Ta'Veren for protection for Mayene.

It seems to me, this all started between she and Faile in Tear because of a total culture clash between Mayener ways and Saldean ways. Having been rejected by Rand, and having decided that Mat was too much like she was, Perrin was left. At first I thought the exchange between Faile and Berelain was funny because it was so ridiculous!

However, after Faile and Perrin return from The Two Rivers married, it should be GAME OVER. Instead it just escalates! Painful. Childish. Fruitless.

I can hardly blame Perrin for not trusting her "sympathy" attempt in this chapter, given her history of torturing him! He is also totally distraught! It's a knee jerk reaction. I sense no white flag being thrown by Berelain. She might have been sincere, but frankly, I think she sees her opening. She gets back at him with the rumors about him in her tent and then she finally calls a truce. Bad behavior and she brought his explosion on herself. I just wish it had happened a few books ago!!

End of Rant. Sorry about that...someone correct me if I have misconstrued.

Edit: To add: Sorry I missed the Kilt discussion. ;-)) Bet is was good. Men in kilts? If they have good legs! Just kidding....sure! We wear pants, they can wear skirt, er kilts.

bawambi @ 41 – Definitely not a loony theory, I like it, that one sounds good to me. However, going through the books again along with the re-read and everyone’s comments, one thing I have noticed is that the clues are there if you look for them. For instance, now that we know Halima was responsible for Egwene’s headaches it becomes obvious in the scene when she gets pissed off that Egwene tells her to go away so she can have her chat with Siuan, immediately the headaches come on. Things like that. Berelain has the respect of the Aiel WO’s, Rand, her country. By her own admission she has only slept with 3 men. This coming on to Perrin because Faile flew off the handle and attacked her for flirting seems a bit over the top.

Wetlander @ 42 – Agree with you that Aram’s plight wasn’t exactly out of the blue. He is set up completely to fall for a maniac like Masema when he loses everything he has ever known. But we see way back in the beginning when Perrin and Egwene visit the Tinker camp that there was something different about him, I think it was mentioned when they were sitting around the fire but I can’t recall and don’t have the books with me here at work. I think it was sad and a bit odd how his character came to an end but I’m sure it parallels some Biblical or mystic reference, any thoughts?

Pendragon @ 52 – On the Gaul/Perrin hand-to-the-chest-matter, I think that touching an Aiel while he was veiled meant that Gaul thought he would have to fight Perrin. He probably actually hesitated because he didn’t want to fight Perrin.

BenPatient @ 69 – BWAHAHAHAHA – hey, stranger things have happened…

Ow @ 70 – I also like both girls and I really like the Perrin/Faile relationship. At least they KNOW they love each other! It’s refreshingly honest.

There are many tidbits which support or suggest this. The first, which rose to great prominence under Taimandred and was then virtually ignored when that theory was denied, is Davram Bashere's suspicion about Taim's identity. It's so very likely that the Taim we've seen isn't the original Mazrim Taim who was captured by Aes Sedai and subsequently freed. The first question remains, freed by whom? Who can take a prisoner out of the hands of a dozen Sisters? Now, Taim's answer to Bashere, taunting him about the spies he destroyed and returned to Bashere as virtually mindless "servants", isn't a big problem, especially after we've seen how much information was extracted from Cabriana Mecandes for the use of Halima'gar.

Other suspicious pieces include Taim being able to test for ability; knowing how to ignore heat or cold; knowing destructive weaves.

Taim destroys a Gray Man attacking Rand, blowing a hole through him. The parallel between this and the attack on Elayne which is foiled by Doilin Mellar, it smells. And if Taim was privy to the Gray Man's attack, did he order it himself?

Taim's anger everytime something Rand does reminds him that he's not the top dog. Now this is a reaction which fit the descriptions of Sammael and Demandred better, but isn't unreasonable.

The black/red theme of Taim's palace at the Black Tower is a clear tie-in to Moridin at some level.

There are strikes against the theory as well. One of the larger, for me, is this. Why the two orders? Colonel? Oh, sorry. No, in Winter's Heart, Rafer Kisman's POV refers to him being told by Taim to kill Rand, by Demandred to kill Rand, and by Moridin to kill Rand if he must, but to make sure to collect his possessions. If Kisman was one of his tools, and he was Moridin in disguise, why would he bother speaking to him as both persons? Would Moridin feel the need for that level of misdirection, to the point that the orders given aren't identical?

That there is a connection between Taim and Moridin, I have a hard time denying. That they are one and the same, I'm less sanguine, but not to the point of dismissal.

Fiddler@131

I make a significant distinction between Berelain's tactics in protecting her country, and Faile's consideration of employing similar tactics with Rolan. The first is motivated by pure politics, the second by a resignation to a potential last resort in escaping the Shaido. Playing the harlot for your country might be viewed as acceptable by some, not I. Faile's reasons are far more reasonable to me. Interesting just how many other characters offer comments of understanding about it, as well.

Sulin/misfortuona - Well, I don't go to the Highland Games just for the piping... :) Well, okay, mostly I do, but it's pretty cool seeing all those men in full-up costume. (Freelancer - don't forget the sgian dubh.)

I don't think either Faile or Berelain view this as a "game" in the sense it is being bandied about here. Certainly, it is a kind of competition, but both women (most especially Faile) seem to treat Perrin more like a possession, than a person. A prize, perhaps in Berelain's case, or perhaps just a "urination" contest. If Faile truly believed that Perrin loved her (like he does), she wouldn't be so possessive about him and likely Berelain would have lost interest soon enough, either finding something else to dig her with or just wandering off to more fertile fields.

Thinking that a marriage ceremony should be the end of whatever their rivalry is about is projecting here, I think. I think the basis of long-term relationships in these books is based more upon love than ceremony. True, those things can go together, but they can exist independently just as easily.

The easy example would be Gaidal Cain and Birgitte Silverbow. In their various incarnations they aren't always married, but they are definitely tied by a bond of love.

Still, I wonder if this isn't just some kind of literary gender twist? What if the Faile and Berelain characters had been men, for example? Would fighting over a desirable female have caused the same amount of consternation here?

Faile can't seem to internalize that Perrin is all about her. That is the crux of the problem.

I think that Faile shouldn't be expecting Perrin to rebuff Berelain. It is Faile's behavior that has Berelain continuing to chase Perrin.

I think Faile should just ignore Berelain, and not just superficially either. Or, perhaps treat her like a overwrought teenager. Unfortunately for her, Faile is still a teenager too, and we are expecting mature behavior from her.

Nor did I mention the dirk, or the hose, etc. I left that out because, while most folks can get the rest of it, describing the sgian dubh would be OTT. Ivory handle/cap banded in silver, cap carved in family crest, a sapphire tipping the handle, dual-edged blade, fits in a wee pocket of me scarlet-flashed hose.

Freelancer - Hey, I wanna see this!! I had no idea you were a full-bore Scotsman! Got pictures?

To our everlasting chagrin, neither my husband nor I can prove a claim to Scots blood. I can't come even remotely close; he can at least find a Scots name that's in his family descent, although we're pretty sure the family is straight-up English. Pity, that; I'd love to have a good excuse to go for the full outfit. :)

Wet and Free - if you want to overdose on Scots stuff, dive in Gabaldon's Outlander series. Crackling good read and almost as long as WoT (fewer books but as long or longer per volume that RJ). Also you can play the waiting game for the upcoming volumes, as the latest one came out last year.

Absolutely right. If Faile had just relaxed, knowing Perrin loved her, and ignored Berelain, it would have diffused the whole mess.....but we are dealing with teenagers or close. Sigh. I guess a few years are worth it, sometimes.

I make a significant distinction between Berelain's tactics in protecting her country, and Faile's consideration of employing similar tactics with Rolan. The first is motivated by pure politics, the second by a resignation to a potential last resort in escaping the Shaido. Playing the harlot for your country might be viewed as acceptable by some, not I. Faile's reasons are far more reasonable to me.

The difference is in the scale on which it is happening.

For Faile it's keeping her people safe from Shaido.
For Berelain it's keeping the people of her small country safe from Tear.

But ethically and morally the principles and tactics used/thought of are the same, no matter what scale they are deployed on.

Interesting just how many other characters offer comments of understanding about it, as well.

Please explain. Who in WoT has the overview that us readers have in order to be able to comment on that?

I am married - and Berelain. It should have never gotten this far, and a quick perusal will show Faile and Berelain at the heart of the matter, and of course all the two river boys need some lessons about girls/women from Thom. (Or maybe for Perrin, it would have been best if Elyas had stayed with him from day one. He wouldn't have had all the problems with Faile, and he would be talking with the wolves.)

I must be out in right field again, because my take on Perrin's interaction with the Aiel in this chapter seems to be totally different from everyone else.

I thought that they were grateful to Perrin for asking/ordering them to chase the Shaido because they __REALLY__ wanted to do just that but could not honorably leave without Perrin's okay. By asking them to go after Faile, he gives them what they want without anyone having to ask for it. (I'm sure that asking to be released from duty for personal business would be extremely shaming for an Aiel, if they could even conceive of making such a request...)

As for the whole Faile/Berlain/Perrin triangle...I find myself having the urge to send all three of them to central detention, since they are acting like they are in middle school. The thing that boggles my mind in this chapter is how Annoura and the so called "wise" women can not only let this go on, but take Berlain's side.

Yes...married and old...my hatred for Randland 90210 has increased over the years, but there was plenty 20 years ago when this all started.

Re: the poll - Just a reminder/clarification: in addition to your own marital status we're asking "who do you side with" in this particular confrontation (when Berelain reaches out to Perrin and he snarls at her).

(Just in case anyone was thinking "who was wrong?" when they answered.)

Am I the only one who thought that the solution to the Masema problem was for Perrin to secretly send one of the Asha'man to contact Rand, Rand gates in, pretends that nobody needed to tell him because he's omniscient or something, and bam, Masema dealt with. And he didn't need to know that anybody besides Rand ever channeled.

Of course, Rand is kind of in hiding at this point, and hard to contact, but couldn't they at least have tried? Also, it's possible that Rand might have just ended up leaving him with Perrin in the end anyway. But still, easy solution overlooked.

re. Taim's darkness
I think it is most likely Moridin in hiding. The floor tiles in the BT's audience chamber are black and red - Moridin's colors. We know he is "playing both sides of the board." Literally, that would be his working for the DO while appearing to be on the side of the Light. OK, by the time I got to the end of the posts I see this has all been said - most specifically by Freelancer@154. So... "what he said."

ScoundrelTheToy@109: I'd forgotten the "so-called Aiel" clue.

The "Masema Effect" - I don't think it needs anything mystical to explain how a bunch of fanatical followers will commit any act in the name of some self-proclaimed prophet. Throughout history in RL, there has never been a shortage of people who are willing to turn off their own brain and let someone else do the thinking. Who's for Kool-Aid? Teabags?

Okay, I have been unsuccessful in getting a picture for you all to see.

Freelancer, I need your help! Can you go onto my Facebook page and get the photo? It is on page 7 of the album titled "Dragon*Con 2009" in the middle of the page. There are three pics, but you could grab whichever one you want.

mutters: I can't believe I don't have Photoshop on this stupid computer...

Re: Arganda
Unlike most other senior military commanders in the Westlands, Arganda is a commoner who worked his way up the ranks. Bryne, Talmanes, Ituralde, Gallene, all are members of the nobility. Arganda has no political clout on his own and without the Queen will see his command turned into a plaything of a particularly ambitious but otherwise less honorable noble.

Sulin's poll. Even though I'm female, I have been known to don a kilt in the family tartan on occasions, with full associated regalia (admittedly a shorter version). So has my sister-in-law, and various cousins too. Add us to the men-folk, and you get some pretty impressive family pictures.

Living in Scotland, I see men in kilts on an almost daily basis, and yes, men in kilts look good!

Berelain needs strangling (in a non-fatal way) - I'm not a whit surprised that Perrin doesn't trust her. Generally speaking, so does Faile - for not realising that she is the only woman in the world for Perrin. Perrin will - later - need to be hit on the head for his idiotic behaviour, but not in this scene! Oh, and everybody who believed that Perrin would choose to be unfaithful to his wife - and that when she just had been kidnapped, too! - need to have their heads smacked together - hard! Oh, and thanks for leaving him to freeze to death in the snow... or thinking that Berelain should have left him to freeze to death in the snow. Either way: Wonderful.

Ack - and to think, that, at first, I was not particularly sad at Faile's kidnapping - in fact, my reaction was more along the lines of "Good riddance!" (The Faile-Berelain-"contest" was driving me nuts - also, I hate unfounded jealousy - the world is full enough of REAL problems as it is...) Sigh... Little did I know...

Regarding your flying cars, and putting on my engineer hat for a moment, inventing flying cars is not the problem at all. We could do it without too much trouble. But tell me, given the way people drive on current, ground-based roads, how would go about assuring that hundreds of thousands of people did not die in horrible fiery air-car crashes?

Zen master time: So you see, it is not the designers who are holding back the flying cars, but the DRIVERS THEMSELVES.

I'm so jealous. My partner and I have a goal of moving to Scotland in a few years but working out the immigration issues is increasingly difficult. I'm concerned about how I'm going to manage it but I'm giving it my best shot nonetheless.

Tinaa @ 183:

I extend my jealousy to you as well.

Incidently, if there happen to be any immigration experts out there, particularly pertaining to the UK and/or Scotland, drop me a Shout, would ya? Or, you know, anyone who wants to help me out with relocating there would be welcome too. Seriously, if I won the lotto I'd be getting a wee cottage with a view of a loch in the highlands in a heartbeat. As it is, waiting two or more years for an uncertain possibility is hard enough.

litg @ 189: Personally I'm not concerned about idiots killing themselves in a fiery air-car crash. Natural selection doesn't bother me at all. It's the knowledge that they'd probably take a bunch of other people out in the process that bothers me.

If air cars did become readily available governments would have to ensure that receiving licensing to fly one would be hard as hell. And figure out some way to keep just anybody from being able to start one of those suckers up.

One of the purposes of marriage, as an institution, is as an indicator that the involved parties are no longer in the market. (That this is often ignored is not the institutions fault.) So no, Perrin should not feel flattered that Berelain thinks he is a man of so little honor that he would break the promises he has made, both to Faile and to the community, by getting married.
On her side, I keep hearing Londo from B5 in one of the episodes from season one, "Love!? What does love have to do with getting married?" In her experience Marriage is a relationship entered into for political/economic advantage, the vows of which are broken for the same reasons.

Re:Jealousy - an emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values, such as a relationship, friendship, or love. It is not to be confused with envy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jealousy

Faile answers Perrin in tGS, of course shes jealous how else would he know she values him.

RE: Polls
BerePoll: Married, definitely Perrin’s side
Kilts: yes but only I had a specific reason to wear one
And I think I actually have some Scottish blood somewhere in my family tree :)

Warning Wall o’ Text and stream of consciousness writing coming up…

Tektonica@150
I agree with everything you say here! I like Berelaine in most things that she does, but when it comes to her interactions with Perrin and Faile and find myself almost despising her. It’s kind of interesting really because I don’t think I have ever felt such a complete spectrum of emotions about a character before.

The more I think about it, the more an uncomfortable thought keeps rising in my mind, though. Without the petty love triangle going on, this arc would be extremely boring.* It adds a way to get an emotional response from the reader, even if that response is negative. I am interested to see how I respond to this plotline during this re-read since I don’t have to wait for any books to come out, and we are going at a good constant pace. I’m thinking that I still will hate how Berelaine acts with Perrin, but I’m willing to bet I enjoy it much more than I did the first time.
P.S. I think I need to include Faile in my dislike, also. She is a character that I’ve almost never liked, but I could have handled some of her cultural misunderstandings with Perrin if she could have just seen that he didn’t care about Berelaine at all. I just don’t understand how she doesn’t see that Perrin loves her, and would rather not be anywhere near Berelaine.

*I realize without the petty love triangle, some people think this plot arc would have been sped up, but it really does need to be there so Perrin can eventually team up with the Seanchan to fight the Shaido. This is obviously going to have larger ramifications later in the books I think. This way Rand’s side will have already teamed up with the Seanchan once to fight together, and it may be Perrin who ends up negotiating with Fortuona (and Mat) for them to ally together to fight in Tarmon Gaidon. Since Perrin has proved that they could work together once, he might be able to get them to work together again.
The other reason thing of significance that happened because the plot took a while was that the Shaido lost a very large portion of their leadership when they were attacked. Because of this, I suspect the whole clan will begin filtering their way back into the waste, and will pretty much be a non-entity for the rest of the series.

Freelancer@154
I agree that there are similarities in Moridin and Taim. I don’t think they are the same person, mostly because of stuff like the contradicting orders, but I do think that Moridin is directing Taim.

litg@189
I’d love to have flying cars, but unless they also all had auto-pilot to run them I’d be very scared about taking to the skies with everyone else. Because quite simply there are already people out there right now that I am scared to share the road with!

Taim+ Moridin=One - I’ve liked this theory since I read about it on the 13thD (though I’m still 50/50 on whether or not Taim is really even a DF).

In regards to issuing the same orders to Kisman as both Taim and Moridin: Well, why not? If Taim is a DF like his Favorite Lackeys, and he is also Moridin in disguise, then he’s simply doubling the importance of the Kill Rand order, but as Moirdin he is adding an additional stipulation Taim (as simply another DF) would not know to add. Namely: Bring all his possessions to me.

So, Kisman now has the same order with two layers of importance:

1) Taim, his immediate superior, is telling him to kill Rand.

2) Moridin, his ultimate superior, is telling him it really doesn’t matter; just bring all the man’s possessions to him. I.e., I don’t care what you do with the man; just bring me whatever he has with him.

So, seems pretty smart. Kisman might wonder why Taim wants Rand’s possessions, and maybe even try to keep them for himself. But I doubt very seriously he’s going to question Moridin as to why.

I've never liked the theory, and I'll tell you why: RJ went to so much trouble at first to paint Taim as Demandred only to nuke everyone's theory by outright denying it. Then later on he starts dropping all these seemingly obvious clues (like the black and red) thing that it just seems like another misdirection.

Which in itself makes it seem obvious that this time it's not a bunch of smoke. All of which I find sort of annoying. Ultimately, I find myself distrusting the text one way or the other. Either I'm constantly (blatantly) being manipulated or Taim's playing a game where he wants to come off as something he's not.

I'd much prefer that it's Taim trying to mess with people than the author. Whether that bears out in reality or not I guess we'll eventually find out.

Re: The Perrin Love Triangle: The thing that annoys me the most about the triangle itself is that up until the resumption of the Game in Fires of Heaven, Perrin was my favorite character. All the triangle does is annoy me, making me not so interested in what's happening with Perrin. Not only that, but it makes him a less sympathetic, or interesting character.

Usually I don't mind that so much with a storyline but I just don't like the seemingly purposeful sabotage of a great character especially in such a childish way. It's just sad.

There's a KiltPoll?
I'd wear one if everybody else was doing it, but not regimental. It can get windy out here in the tropics.

Re: love triangle thingy
I'm staying out of that. They're all douchebags anyway. Here you have three different people trying to impress upon each other three different cultural biases. Of course you'll end up with a headdesk. They could have met in the middle. Do a menage a trois or something. And... right.. shutting up.

Re: Kisman's orders
I thought it was Taim that wanted Rand's belongings. I've got this weird theory that Taim is still trying to usurp Rand's title as Dragon Reborn. Dragons crawling up his coat sleeves, army of male channelers behind him. He says so to Rand at one point. It's all a matter of propaganda. But Moridin issuing the order works just as well. Rand must have something big if he's considering cleansing saidin. Moridin wants whatever it is.

I couldn't disagree more that Masema's rabble entering Andor and inevitably continuing the same kind of brhavior as in Ghealadan wouldn't have caused a war in Andor. On the contrary, it would have completely sabotaged Rand and his candidate for the throne, because it would have show the Andorans everything they have always suspected and feared about the DR's followers.

And yes, an Asha'man should have been sent to Rand, and in fact the news that Shaido were there and causing trouble was something he should have known also.
And BTW, it wouldn't have even blown the "quarrel" cover, because the 2 Asha'man weren't officially known to be with Perrin!
Oh, and if Rand could have been reached and bothered to deal with Masema, he would have strung up Masema on the spot. After all, Masema's crimes are pretty much along the same line as Mangin's was, only a million times worse.

Re: the WOs with Perrin, yes, they were no dreamwalkers, but dreamwalkers made some pretty sophisticated arrangements for Rand in TSR. I doubt that just shouting at somebody's dream is the extent of their skills - actually entering a person's dream, as they were teaching Egwene to do, should allow some 2-way communication. IMHO, they could and should have contacted Perrin's WOs sometime.

Aspeo @193:

but it really does need to be there so Perrin can eventually team up with the Seanchan to fight the Shaido.

Which is only needed because RJ made Tuon far more intransigent than Egeanin and didn't give Mat's party any real challenge that would have required cooperation between everybody, including the AS. Like, oh, maybe beating off a pissed-off Semi, trying to recover her investment of 2 years? It doesn't make sense that Semi gave up on Tuon so easily and didn't have a locator on her in the first place.
I.e. all the justifications of this snooze-fest are really circular, IMHO.

Oh, and I have grown to dislike Perrin, as association with Faile and getting enmeshed in boring plot-lines really diminished him in my eyes, but I am on his side versus Berelein and was back when I was single, too ;).
I hate Faile, but I would have liked Berelein if not for this idiocy. As it is, I just can't, though.
IMHO, it would have been a vastly less irritating and possibly even more interesting (!) storyline if it was Morgase who managed to escape the capture ;).

I cannot wait for ToM; aside from the Mat-Moiraine story arc, we will finally get to see Perrin doing things agian! Whitecloaks, Trollocs, and a Queenly reveal (oh my!). Perrin's fight with the Whitecloaks should be oh so interesting because this time: Galad is a smart leader, Berelain is going to start pursuing Galad (to Perrin's initial relief, but eventual chagrin as he realizes that it creates ahem a conflict of interest), Galad will recognize Morgase (probably assuming that she is a prisoner), and will try to free her, most likely leading her to reveal herself. The plot line of doom is over, let the plot line of comparative excitement begin!

Have to agree that marching Masema and even just a hundred of his followers through Andor would have been a total catastrophe, only the exact where and when would have been in doubt. Given that even (especially?) the Salidar AS believed that Mat's Band was at least as bad as Masema's followers (and don't they _still_ believe that?), there is no way Anodrans (or any other group) would not have blown up in Perrin's face.

Of course, Travelling in some form should have been used and the problem could have been solved quietly. However, the plot needs some massive cannon fodder for the (way too long) delayed end of the PLOD.

Jonathan Levy @184 - For this poll, it's not too bad since I started collecting immediately, and just add results as I go through the comments. For any future polls, however, I will definitely request such a format!! Good idea.

Jonathan Levy @187 - Oh, it would be truly delicious...

jamesedjones @188 LOL!! Umm... Nynaeve, or Leigh? :)

@ various re: Faile and her "jealousy" - As SteelBlaidd pointed out, jealousy and envy are not the same thing, nor is covetousness the same as either. Jealousy, in its true meaning, is more a matter of guarding or protecting something of great value, usually something not entirely tangible. So while I trust my husband implicitly, I am also jealous, and if any woman came along trying to poach him, I'd be sure of two things: One, that I was doing everything in my power to give him no reason to turn elsewhere, and Two, that the other woman knew she was out of line. So... Faile doesn't seem to be doing all that well on the first, but there are a couple of mitigating factors for her.

First, she's young and inexperienced. They've only been married for, what, six months? Nearly seven? So while she knows he loves her, she doesn't have the experience in their relationship to know how best to be sure he's not tempted by Berelain. And face it, Berelain is supposed to be incredibly beautiful; any wife is going to feel a teensy bit unsure of herself facing that kind of competition.

Second, and far more importantly, even without Berelain to complicate things Faile is frustrated with Perrin's treatment of her. They have such polar-opposing views of how a man should treat the woman he loves, and they need time to figure it out quietly, all by themselves. Unfortunately, circumstances are not giving them any quiet time, much less by themselves. So Faile has spent the last six or eight months trying to figure out how to get Perrin to treat her with (her cultural definition of) respect and confidence, as well as love, and it's near to driving both of them nuts. Then Berelain comes swaying in, and from the Saldaean perspective, Perrin treats her with all the respect he's not showing Faile. Whether or not you think either the Two Rivers or the Saldaean culture is way off base, those are the cultures they are coming from.

I think that if Faile & Perrin had already come to a workable understanding (per Elyas's advice) before Berelain came on the scene, the two of them would laugh themselves sick over her attempts to snare Perrin. As it is, the only one laughing is Berelain, because even if she's not getting any closer to Perrin's bed, she's clearly got him unsettled in some way, and she's got Faile fighting mad. Which, for some reason, seems to be all she needs for entertainment.

I have a few more thoughts on this, but real life is intruding. Hopefully I'll get a chance to write it up later.

Not that I don't understand where Perrin;s coming from, I totally do. I just think Bere was just trying to be nice there and alll he did was make her up the ante (see 'night in the tent')

As for the triangle itself, I dont think Berelain is even serious about trying to get with Perrin, she just likes pushing Faile's buttons. and Rand plays into the whole thing by not ignoring it, thereby in Faile's mind somehow saying there IS something to worry about. I don't even think that it's a cultural issue...Perrin just doesnt get how women treat each other.

Kilts...yes, if the situation/event warranted (Here's looking at you Misfortuona@149 *wink*).

I spent a week in Scotland in '04. People were great, golfing was great (if you like high winds, freak rainstorms, and funny caddies), food was good, Scotch was amazing, beer was indescribably good. The memories of MacEwan's 80 Schilling haunt me to this day as I have yet to have a beer as good.

Perrin loses too many points in this whole plot thread. Also, it may be that in Berelain's experience with nobles that marriage and monogamy are rare companions. Not that I think she is in the right here, just that she is less wrong.

As for Masema - every time I see him in the story from here on out I wish Luis Guzmán were in the cast. I will note that Faile basically took that advice in TGS.

So, I've read all the comments, and I still can't figure out how the PlotLine of Doom turns into Men Wearing Kilts.

And as for various who think the PLOD could be avoided with some timely Travelling, how were the Asha'man supposed to *find* Rand? At this point in the story, Rand is being very hard to find. And even if Masema was taken out when Perrin first found him, Perrin still would not have returned to camp in time to forestall the Shaido attack. So, read it and like it.

Poll: Single / Perrin - although with the caveat that I do think Berelain was being genuinely concerned at that moment and he overreacted because he was so distraught. However, what tipped it for me in his favor was her reaction to his reaction, and Annoura's reaction to his reaction.

Kilt: sorry to say I may have quite a few different races in my background but Scottish is not one of them. I'll have to sit this poll out.

I'd also like to comment that I haven't found the plotline of doom to be as bad as I thought it was going to be up to this point. I've now caught up to Leigh and finished WH and halfway through COT and have found all the plotlines tolerable and even enjoyable.

Kilts: Not my thing. Much respect to those who can pull them off (bad choice of wording there, but I'm leaving it) but I am not one of those people.

As far as Berelain and Perrin, I've already given my thoughts, but here's to clarification.

Perrin: We talk quite a bit about lack of communication being a theme of these stories. Perrin, however, has been told flat-out on numerous occasions what his wife expects of him (Deira, among others.) It shouldn't take quick thinking to follow that thread of logic to how his wife expects him to treat other women, and it makes his failure to acknowledge his wife's strength in a way that she can understand inexcusable. The only mitigation I can think of for this case is that Perrin probably didn't have to deal with many bullies when he was growing up. If he had, he would have learned the single most important truth of this situation. Namely, that Berelain is doing this to get a reaction out of him. She may be self-deluded enough to think that she can get him away from Faile, but even that delusion would have to fade in light of Perrin's utter lack of reaction to her flirting. For a bully, any reaction is a good reaction.

Berelain: The dude is MARRIED. I believe the scene from when Perrin first met her after he was married went something like "he managed to call her wife three times in as many sentences and say that he loved her as well." Game over. You lost. Get over it. You have nobody but yourself to blame for Perrin's reaction, regardless of how well-meaning it was. And I do believe that it was well-meaning. Just ill-considered.

And while we're on the subject . . .
Faile: You are the cousin of a queen, and daughter of Davram Bashere. One would assume that you've had classes in at least rudimentary diplomacy. Even if you don't plan on adopting them, you should at least be able to acknowledge that other ways of doing things are equally valid, and not get angry with your husband when he fails to beat you over the head just so you can prove you can take it. Psycho.

AAAaaaand that should offend just about everyone.
-Beren, the best offense is a good offense.
(Edit, can't spell today)

I've actually always thought that Berelain and Perrin would have made a better (and far less annoying) match than Faile and Perrin.

That aside, I think Berelain's behavior is inexcusable in light of the fact that Perrin is married.
I have a lot of empathy for Faile in this situation. If one of the most beautiful women in the world -- more beautiful than me and I knew it -- was after my husband and he didn't shut her down immediately, I'd be extremely insecure.

Okay, this is sort of a general analogy for the "culture wars" going on, particularly as it relates to Perrin, Faile and Berelain. As with any analogy, it breaks down if you try to push it too far, but... here goes.

Recently I had a chance to watch some folks enjoying the "Postie's Jig" and it seemed a good analogy. For starters, if you've never seen it, it's a fairly complicated and fast-moving Scottish dance, performed with 4 couples in a set. This is a nice example by experienced performers (kilts and all!) and is done with slower music than the one I was watching, but it gives you a fair idea of the complexity of the dance. Each individual makes specific moves based on their gender and their position in the set. If someone goes the wrong direction, it throws everyone off until they get back in position.

So in the event I was watching, everyone nominally knew the steps. Some of them knew the whole dance very well, some not quite so well, and a few mostly knew the steps but couldn't remember what order things went - they were still learning. It went fairly smoothly, though, because.... The ones who knew what they were doing not only did it right, but could call out to or steer the ones who weren't so good at it. The ones who mostly knew it could watch the "gooders" (out of the corners of their eyes, when necessary) and keep themselves out of trouble by mirroring the right person. The ones who really were still learning had to look sharp, watch out for the right person to mirror on, and count on everyone else to pull/push them back into their place when needed.

Now for the analogy, and I'll use the Two Rivers as a base for it, because that's where it all started for me. Society functions much like that dance in the TR. They have the Village Council and the Women's Circle, along with the Wisdom and the Mayor. With a few notable exceptions, these tend to be the smart ones who know the dance: they know which things are the business of the Council and which the Circle, they tend to let one another get on with their roles and enjoy the company. Most importantly, though, they understand that each one has a role to play, and that society as a whole will function much better through cooperation than confrontation. (Sometimes their spheres of influence will necessarily overlap, and that's when you really see who's smart and who's just following blindly along... but that's outside my analogy at the moment.) These are also the ones who can step in and get the whole thing back in line when someone makes a hash of it, without losing their place.

The ones who mostly know the moves, but maybe aren't quite so confident in the dance, follow along where the Council and the Circle lead, keeping an eye on the leadership but mostly going about the dance without having to worry about it too much. The kids, in general, are the ones who are still learning the dance; they kinda know most of the moves from growing up there, but they have to look sharp to keep from getting out of the sequence and getting stepped on (quite probably via the Wisdom's shillelagh). Any given individual may or may not particularly like the role they are given at any point in time, but they generally follow along with the dance and the society works pretty well.

What happens when someone from another culture comes into the dance? For the analogy, someone who learned the jig elsewhere and is used to just slightly different steps, or a tiny difference in the sequence? In normal circumstances, they either leave in a huff or they adapt, and learn to at least stumble through the few differences in the local version.

Our Heroes are mostly in the middle group; they know the moves, and can more or less follow the sequence; they're getting the idea of the whole dance, the enjoyment of the cooperation, and some glimpses of how it works and how to fix things if they get messed up. But... they don't really know the whole thing yet.

So in this particular setting, you have someone who learned the Saldaean version marrying someone who learned the Two Rivers version, and the differences are fairly pronounced. In quieter times, they would have an entire society around them to help steer them straight. If they lived in the Two Rivers (and if Faile wasn't second in line for the Saldaean throne), she'd adapt to the TR version, or at least learn to understand it, and the more experienced folk around them would help both of them understand and learn how to dance together in a way that works for the both of them. Ditto if they lived in Saldaea, except that Perrin would be the one adapting to the local version.

Unfortunately, these are not quiet times. All they've had were some chaotic months in the TR where, between Trollocs, Whitecloaks and refugees, everything had gone sideways, a short time in Cairhien with Berelain poking and prodding, a short time apart (while Perrin chased after Rand and Faile tried to gain intel on the local politics), and now this tour of duty to retrieve a madman and gain an alliance. The only advice they were able to get was whatever they got in the TR, with no one quite sure how to treat either of them, a couple of crazy-inducing days with her parents, and Elyas's input when he joined them a month ago.

Here they are, then (or were, before Faile was captured): Perrin is doing his best to dance the way he learned. Faile is slightly frustrated because their steps aren't working together the way they should. Worse yet, Berelain seems to be dancing by a completely different set of rules, and it looks to Faile as though Perrin's got the steps backwards so that he's doing the "right" steps with Berelain and the "wrong" steps with herself. Of course, from Perrin's perspective, he's doing the right steps with Faile, and trying to keep Berelain from butting into the dance at all. From Berelain's perspective... well, I'm not sure. I think she's just having fun swaying through the middle of the dance to see how much frustration she can cause. If she weren't so smart, I'd give her the benefit of saying that she just learned the same dance with slightly different steps or sequence, and say that she doesn't understand why Perrin is sending mixed signals. I don't get any indication of that, though, except that in this particular moment she may not think about the fact that her gesture of sympathy looks exactly like her dance moves.

Okay, that was a big ol' wall'o'text to say something everyone already understands... but the analogy was so much fun I just had to explore it. And no one is posting much, so I might as well provide something for the inveterate F5-tappers to read. :)

Oh, and as far as we know, Berelain is probably a year or so older than RPM, Faile is probably a year or two younger than them. So... mid-999, Perrin is nearly 21, Faile is probably 18 or 19 (maybe as little as 16, but probably not) and Berelain is probably 22-ish. The only thing I've been able to find about her age is that Rand thought she couldn't be more than a year older than him, back in the Stone. So... what do you think of Rand as a judge of a woman's age?

Party? You're on! I'll bring some fresh guacamole, pico de gallo and chips, and just for the fun of it, this yummy Spanish Rioja that goes by the name of LAN. Works well with grilled things, for some reason.

Wetlander@216:
We already know Berelain can relate to the Two Rivers form of the "dance". She didn't have any trouble understanding that Rand was saying no, the night she went to his chambers in Tear. She just refused to accept the answer until he channeled her away. I originally thought that was because she was trying to protect Mayene, but maybe her problem is she's just too self-impressed to really believe someone would turn her down and mean it. The only other explanation I can come up with is she just doesn't care how Perrin feels at all.

There you have it - evidence that statistics can, indeed, be used to say anything you want. :) See? Married people all vote for Perrin, single people mostly vote for Berelain, and two singles go against the grain and vote for Perrin. Except that it's not true.

So I shall give you the expanded results:

Married (or in a committed relationship) - 27

Perrin - 22
Berelain - 5

Oddly, this includes one who voted for "neither" and one for "both" - so they balance(?).

Single - 13

Perrin - 7
Berelain - 6

Statistically speaking, then, the married folk largely sided with Perrin, while the single folk were almost evenly split. Of course, this really tells us nothing of cause and effect; two of the married people say that they felt exactly the same way (for Perrin) while they were single, while several noted that they would prefer to caveat their vote, as neither is exactly blameless here. And we didn't include factors like

and oh, so many more. So. Them's the statistics - you can come up with the "lies" and "damn lies" as you like.

Thank you for participating in our poll. Stay tuned for more polls, from which we can happily extract a plethora of meaningless data with which to while away the time until we get our grubby mitts on Towers of Midnight. :)

Wet@215
Awesome Analogy and I think Berelain is dancing through the middle on purpose. Part of the problem is that Faile has gotten Perrin to dance to her steps on quite a number of occasions, when he gets mad enough to forget himself, and he has never explained that he has different rules. Remember Perrin prefers to avoid yelling generally and even in Saldea you don't go having marital spats in public, so she may not realize it's not the SOP. And it's not like she hasn't tried to explain her expectations.

HArai@220
I'm pretty sure she's having trouble believing he really means "No I don't want you." not "No I don't want my wife to catch us." Hence the tent rumor on the theory that if he's already been convicted in the court of public opinion than he might as well enjoy it.

In all the debate over the BPF mess I recomentd everyone go back and reread tPoD ch 10(http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/05/the-wheel-of-time-re-read-the-path-of-daggers-part-7) where we get this very important thought fro Faile.

Childishly satisfying, Faile admitted, when she should be focused on the matter at hand. She almost bit her lip in aggravation. She did not doubt her husband’s love, but she could not treat Berelain as the woman deserved, and that forced her, against her will, to play a game with Perrin too often as the gaming board. And the prize, so Berelain believed. If only Perrin did not sometimes behave as if he might be.

There are several things that I get out of this.
In order:
Faile knows that the situation is not conducive to mature response.
Faile Knows Perrin loves her and is not going to stray, but
He some times acts in ways that indicates he might, signaling to Berelain that she's still in the game.
Diplomatic, and tactical circumstances make it impossible for her to dole out the punishment appropriate punishment for "poaching"
Forcing her to play Berelain's game, WHICH SHE DOES NOT LIKE DOING.
Beran@212
Nice analysis, though Faile does try to remind herself not to be mad at him.

(PoD ch8)No, she would not think about Berelain. It was not Perrin’s fault. She repeated that to herself twenty times a day, like a prayer. But why was the man so blind?

Well, that was grim. Of course, it is the beginning of the End Game. There will no doubt be some DF surprises, but Linda seems to have sussed things out about people I barely remember. It just amazes me. Thanks for the heads up.

*gateway opens*
Hi, I'm from the Seanchan, we're looking for someone who is a descendant of Artur Hawkwing who can't actually channel and won't mind shaving her head as part of the high blood. And who might you be?

I said I wouldn't go near the menage a trois thingy... but I can't help it. Ever heard of the fun being in the chasing rather than the catching? This is what we're seeing. Perrin is well and truly Faile's. Berelain knows this. At this point I think she's more interested in chasing rather than actually catching. Faile understands this. Perrin unfortunately does not. By making a big show of being chased. He's actually signalling Berelain to chase some more.

Maybe Annoura will get fed up with Berelain's behavior and help out. :) Or... the Maidens. Pretty sure any one of them could take Berelain in a couple of seconds. Bain and Chiad might have something to say about it. I sure wouldn't bet money on Cha Faile, though.

You mean back in Chapter 2 of Shadow Rising? Where Rand was attacked by a bubble of evil and scared the out of Berelain? Perrin notices that Berelain smells absolutely terrified when he bows to her as she runs out of Rand's chambers and starts this whole mess.

I don't think the dance is any way the same. The Two Rivers boys can square dance but Berelain is used to courtly dances. Just my two cents.

Okay so Sulin has taken the day off to celebrate her birthday. Meh.
So despite my efforts to avoid the job, I'm here not only delivering my half of the results for the Kilt Poll, but hers as well. Sometimes Karma does work directly.

Anyway of the 15 gentlemen who responded 10 said they would wear a kilt, though several asserted that they would only do so if the occasion called for it. Five party poopers, er men said they would never wear one.

Of the 8 ladies that responded, surprisingly every one said that they did believe men looked good, er in one case yummy, in a kilt.

So the point of this is, IMO, that men should wear kilts as often as possible.

Skip@238: Actually Rand said no and she didn't accept it until he started to shovel her out of the room with saidin and the bubble of evil hit. My point was that she understood he was saying no. It follows that she should be able to understand when Perrin says no, that he means no since Rand approaches it in much the same fashion. In other words, I don't think the "Berelain doesn't understand Perrin's signals" argument flies. She knows he's not interested and for whatever reason, won't drop it.

For what it's worth, I ran across this in the theoryland quotes on Berelain:

RJ also said Berelain is attracted to Perrin partly because he's the first man she wanted and couldn't get which is interesting, partly because he's buff, and partly because she thinks it'd be kinky to make it with a blacksmith.

No clue, obviously, exactly what RJ said and what was the reporter's interpretation, since she doesn't claim to be doing a word-for-word report in this sentence. Still, for what it's worth, there it is.

Re: Perrin and Gaul... My interpretation was that Gaul and the mainden's hostile reaction was that they thoughtthat Perrin was trying to stop them from pursuing. (I believe Perrin puts his hand on Gaul's chest). Since Gaul is probably as eager to rescue Chiad as Perrin is to rescue Faile (and the maiden's seem to be backing up on that), he's about to go all ... well, go all Aiel... on perrin's hiney. Once the Aiel realize Perrin is not stopping them, they quickly drop the hostility.

Re: Berelain... Still annoying after all these years. Ok. She wanted to come between Perrin and Faile (to get back at Faile for the fight in the Stone of Tear). But... Guess what? Perrin and Faile are married. Faile won. Let it go... Ugh!!!!

The re-read is reaching (or, since I'm a couple years behind, reached) the part of the series where each chapter is a slog. There are definitely islands in their (MOA if you prefer)... But you have to sail some (fairly boring / frustrating) seas to reach those islands.

At least that's my opinion.

- Grim

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