2 Samuel 16:9,11 - "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head...let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him."

Matthew 7:15 - “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 24:11 - “…and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”

Tuesday, December 8, 2009

"Bring Ye All the UNDESIGNATED Tithe to My Church...Now"

Before we continue looking at what John McArthur has taught on the topic of storehouse tithing, let's look at a timely example of a storehouse tithing preacher and the tactics used to raise end-of-year revenue using the storehouse tithing doctrine.. The preacher is Steve Gaines of Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, Tennessee. Below is a video that shows Gaines from this past Sunday (12/6/09) using the storehouse tithe doctrine, with a special twist, to encourage his people to give more money, and to give it ONLY to his church.

In the video you see the familiar tactics that the hard-core storehouse tithers use, and a few new ones:

- the twist this preacher uses that I haven't seen before, is he is calling not just for a 10% tithe, but he wants it given as "undesignated". I wonder how necessary it is to actually say that. Most people who give regularly to their church, do so without designating a particular budget item. If they do designate, its usually into a capital fund. Are there givers that are giving significant sums to a capital fund? If so, so what, let them give as they purpose in their hearts to give! Is it his place to tell people how to give? He seems to imply that giving to a captial fund or to a designated fund is not obedient storehouse tithing.

- this preacher emphatically tells his congregation to support NO other ministries with the first 10% of their charitable giving. He says that people will be bombarded with requests for money this time of year from "everybody and their brother", and they are to not give to these unless it is over and above the 10%. If a man in that church is able to give say 5%, or $400 per month, is he really obligated by God to give it ALL to this preacher's church? I know the preacher PREFERS it all be given to his church, but really, does God demand that it ALL go to Steve Gaines' church? If so, where in scripture does it command this as an act obedience? Would it be disobedient for someone to support another ministry like a local rescue mission, or even to help a single mom whose car needs repairs with their first 10%? This strong, emphatic call for ALL of the FIRST 10% is perhaps one of the most arrogant and greedy parts of the storehouse tithe doctrine. But it works, apparently.

- he talks about "unwritten checks" - apparently those you did NOT write to his church - as showing the condition of your heart. Amen! Perhaps if people stop forking over all of their charitable money to the mega churches and to other worthwhile charities, these "unwritten checks" will show them to have a discerning spirit!

- one positive note: at least this guy has some soft music playing, and uses his "prayer voice" to ask for the money, at least in the first part of the video, and actually does thank his church for their generosity. If you're going to tell me God Almighty has told me I need to give 10% of my money to your church as a test of my obedience, please set the mood right and be gentle. :)

- he has someone give a testimony of a wonderful ministry that their tithes are paying for. This would be a good tactic, if any measurable percentage of the money was actually paying for that ministry. This minister offers an example that really doesn't cost any money, as an example of what their money is paying for. Do they think the sheep are that stupid?

- the preacher calls the giving a wise "spiritual investment". Make the sheep believe that their gift is an "investment". Televangelists use this verbiage quite a bit...even going so far as to encouraging people to get their investment money and "put it in the kingdom" to earn a higher return! One televangelist recently told viewers that instead of putting aside money for their children's college, they should take that same money and "invest" it in his ministry and God will give them a much greater financial return.

- the power of a personal testimony of a storehouse tither is used. These testimonies are very persuasive. People in the pews who are giving generously, but not 10% will feel a sense of guilt to get to 10% so they too can be blessed, and be obedient to God. Notice the terminology used by the man and woman giving the testimony. No doubt they are very sincere, but they speak of the tithe as "an act of obedience", a "test of my faithfulness", tithing is what "the Lord has commanded". The woman mentions "the Malachi 3:10 thing", and apparently has been tithing all of her life. We'll look at this "Malachi 3:10 thing" a bit later.

Enjoy the video, and I look forward to more discussion!

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"Tithing is not synonymous with giving. Tithing means to literally give 10% of your income to the work of the Lord in your church in an undesignated fashion. It was brought to the storehouse in Malachi Chapter 3 and all over the Old Testament. And in the New Testament, Jesus affirmed it as well when he was talking with folks....and I know at the end of the year you're going to have everybody and their brother sayin': 'Give to our cause, give to our cause'. Just remember though, God wants your tithe to go to your local church. And this local church is not just spending that money to build buildings and all that kinda stuff, we're putting that money back into the lives of people, to help people, so they can know about Jesus Christ. So I want to encourage you, even though a lot of people are going to be sayin' 'We need this and that', you pray about that and give to them if you're led to, but don't give your tithe, your tithe goes to your church......[then later when preaching]....What about unwritten checks?...Jesus said 'where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.' And I'm telling you, the way you spend your money shows the condition of your heart. How is your heart? Are you tithing? I tell you, that's to be an undesignated check to this church if you're a member of Bellevue. Your tithe goes to the general fund, the budget of Bellevue, it doesn't go to anyplace else. Offerings above that if you're led by the Holy Spirit, fine, but your tithe goes to the budget of this church." - Steve Gaines 12/6/09

74 comments:

"Undesignated"??? Please!Now that's transparent.He might as well have said that the giver will never know how he plans to spend that money.Undesignated giving = Undesignated spending.I think God wants us to use the brain and discernment that He gave us.

Wait until they hit you with the "make sure you leave the church in your will - 11th commandment ".

Ga Baptist Convention was really pushing this until my friends started exposed them. They had representatives going around to the Baptist Church memberships and really hitting the SR Adults with this tactic.

Thie Florida Baptist Convention also has a full time attorney on staff that goes around and gives "financial planning" and "estate planning" advice to seniors in various churches. And I believe even offers to draft wills and trusts for FREE....wait for it....IF they give a percentage of their estate to the church upon death.

And believe it or not, she is a member where?....wait for it....First Baptist Church of Jax. And it gets better...her husband is a long time pastoral staff member.

I'm telling you, you can't make this stuff up. Check it out for yourself.

A sad, twisted way of leveraging power. Using guilt to manipulate. Some folks have relatives who use these tactics to get family members to do their bidding. Even sadder when trusted church leaders use these ploys.

I suppose all the shopping spree money that Mac and Debbie Brunson are spending in New York right now is coming from FBC Jax UNDESIGNATED giving ??

Do you suppose the faithful would give as much as they do, if they knew EXACTLY how and where that money was spent? I think not.

I, for one, only give to designated church offerings, ie: the Bibles for the Middle East, Lottie Moon, Prison Ministry,etc. When I'm able to afford a Jaguar, a million dollar home, and yearly Christmas shopping sprees to New York, then and only then will I consider giving to a general budget fund !!

I, for one, only give to designated church offerings, ie: the Bibles for the Middle East, Lottie Moon, Prison Ministry,etc. When I'm able to afford a Jaguar, a million dollar home, and yearly Christmas shopping sprees to New York, then and only then will I consider giving to a general budget fund !!

December 8, 2009 1:37 PM

Now we are finding out that Lottie Moon funds are not all going directly to missions on the field.

All of the baptist churches I am aware of, operate on church budgets. The ministries, salaries, mission endeavors, utilities... are all presented and represented in these budgets. How do any of you who have been in FBCJ, expect the church to operate without a budget?

If everyone just designates to their pet project:

1 - Who pays the electric bill?2 - Who pays for the repairs?3 - What do you do with those ministries that have done well with a budget but don't survive with no one designating enough to it?

If any on here want to not accept storehouse tithing, fine but it has been taught by godly men for centuries and many of you were brought up under these men. Were they wrong?

MacArthur does not promote Storehouse tithing he supports giving 100% and then some. He sees giving to the church as something the believer does out of a surrendered life and is done cheerfully and generously.

I believe MacArthur understands the ideal of synergy within the church, even in the area of giving.

Those who post belittling others who disagree with their position need to do some soul checking, this just doesn't seem godly. If it is, please help me understand.

What good does it do to call other believers:

- lemmings?- out for spending their earned income?- deceivers?- brainless?

If any on here want to not accept storehouse tithing, fine but it has been taught by godly men for centuries and many of you were brought up under these men. Were they wrong?

For centuries "the church" taught infant baptism.

If this is how we determine right from wrong, then why don't we throw out our Bibles and just read the "church fathers"?

MacArthur does not promote Storehouse tithing he supports giving 100% and then some. He sees giving to the church as something the believer does out of a surrendered life and is done cheerfully and generously.

What is "giving to the church" per the New Testament? People gave to support missionaries and relieve the poor. No officials (because there weren't any) collected money; the people stored it up themselves and then gave it to a courier to give to the poor. They gave willingly and cheerfully.

Has nothing to do with "tithing" to a business entity and paying the salary of any CEO.

Those who post belittling others who disagree with their position need to do some soul checking, this just doesn't seem godly. If it is, please help me understand.

What is it to you? Can't we talk? Who is our judge and master? I've had it up to here with people telling me what I can't say, what I can't do, where I can't go, when JESUS promised me freedom and a light burden. Let HIM deal with our hearts, and if we are sinning, show it to us in the scriptures.

And while you're there, take a good long look at Galatians. Observe the language and expressions Paul uses, such as telling the circumcision types to "go the whole way and emasculate themselves". Would you rebuke him for that? Why not? Because he's above kindness and grace that you demand for everyone else? Or maybe, just maybe, there are times and places for strong talk?

"1 - Who pays the electric bill?2 - Who pays for the repairs?3 - What do you do with those ministries that have done well with a budget but don't survive with no one designating enough to it?

For what did they pay bills to operate the NT church? Paul made tents so as not to be a burden.

"If any on here want to not accept storehouse tithing, fine but it has been taught by godly men for centuries and many of you were brought up under these men. Were they wrong?"

Yes. But it was more understandable when churches were small and the pastors were not celebrities raking it in. The pastor struggled like everyone else and the elders cleaned the toilets. Most of the work was done by members who carried the burdens. In the early days of our country, the members built the church by hand.

Think about the just the electric bill at FBCJax and other mega's. These churchs are 2/3 empty 4-5 days a week. Yet you are still paying huge overhead to maintain them.

"If any on here want to not accept storehouse tithing, fine but it has been taught by godly men for centuries and many of you were brought up under these men."

There are NO godly men. Just depraved sinners saved by grace just like the rest of us. There is no clergy/laity distinction in the Word. If saved, we are all priests in the Holy Priesthood and all are gifted by the Holy Spirit. Pastor is a spiritual gift but one would not know that because it has turned into a man made glorified position/office which is not biblical.

Who was the pastor for the church in Corinth? Phillipi? If it is such a lofty position over other spiritual gifts then we would know the answer, right? There is nothing to say in the NT that only pastors preach.

You know I really have to wonder how those of you who do not want to tithe expect your church to function. I am not just talking about the mega churches I mean any church. Most of them have expenses. Most people expect to have a pastor that is available 24/7 and yet somehow they think that he does not need an income to survive. If your issue is with the mega church model, there are plenty of small churches to be found, in the SBC the average church is under 250 members. The real problem I see with the mega church model is that there has yet to be one of them that has successfully changed leadership after the man who grew it has moved on or passed on. to my mind this makes them and all who supported it part of the cult of personality.

Just one man’s opinion. that and $3,25 will buy a small coffee at starbucks.

Most of us want to do our part. The truth is that only about 20% of church members pay anything close to the tithe.

The tithe is relative to your ablilities and you should pay up on your on accord and with joy!

It does not take a long and elaborate Bible study to come to the conclusion that the tithe is a good and fair way for church memebers to do their part. If you are gainfully employed, drive a new car, can afford to eat in restarurants several times per week, have your kids in expensive activities, travel, ... and if you do not pay your tithe, then you are sinning. And not only are you sinning, you are a deadbeat.

To pastor prime.

Calling a non-tithing church member a deadbeat is in the same vein as some of Paul's language that you point out. Calling a tither "brainless" and a "lemming" is altogether wrong and I do not think that it is at all reflective of Paul's teaching. Perhaps it is you who needs to study Galatians in a different light.

We are obligated to take care of widows and orphans. I know of widows living on Social Security that continue to tithe while accepting assistance from the church. I submit that these souls are great examples of the Christian faith.

Anon - I appreciate you continuing to post, because your words show very clearly how empty and futile the tithe doctrine is when it is taken to its logical conclusion as you have done. Not only do your assertions about the tithe, about deadbeats and fairness not line up with the bible, they don't even make sense logically.

If not giving 10% is sin, and more than 80% of church members are sinning, and 80% are therefore deadbeats, then these people should be singled out and disciplined in accordance with New Testament principles. A brother should go to them and point out their sin, then if they don't repent another, and if not then take them in front of the church. Or better yet, short circuit that and just issue them trespass papers. And their spouses.

If the church is to be financed, if the gospel is dependent upon all Christians tithing, then these deadbeats who don't tithe are to be loathed and scorned above all, as they are preventing the spread of the gospel. They are keeping missionaries from being sent. They are keeping preachers from going to seminary. They are preventing church marketers from being able to earn a living by consulting with mega church pastors (TIC). Why are we not disciplining these deadbeats? Why do we allow them to sit in their pews and give their puny 2% or 3% offerings? And wouldn't those be unacceptable, blemished offerings, like a man bringing a blemished lamb to the alter? The priests were reprimanded for accepting blemished sacrifices. Perhaps the church should refuse these blemished offerings, and only accept the pure 10% offerings from the righteous, and let the 2 percenters keep their lousy sacrifices?

No, they accept these blemished offerings from deadbeats, because it allows them to keep their doors open, and to live a modern, middle class American lifestyle. Using your logic, they must not trust God to accept only the 10% offerings, and they accept these sinful offerings. If what you say is true, then I say those who don't tithe: DON'T GIVE ANY OF YOUR OFFERING to the church who teaches what this Anon is saying, since you are regarded as a deadbeat anyways! Take what you do have to give, and do what Jesus would do with it today. He would probably take your offering, Jesus would, and go down to the rescue mission and buy food, he would go to the orphans home and buy clothes and school's supplies, why he might buy the vagrant on the street a hot meal somewhere. I can assure, all of those people would not consider you a deadbeat, or a sinner, they would not consider your gift a blemished offering, they would willing accept your gift and thank God for it.

So church members, if your pastor ever stands up and tells you that your gift of less than 10% is a blemished offering, and that you are sinning by giving less than 10% and you are a deadbeat, I recommend that you immediately stop giving your blemished offerings to that church as the Lord may very well judge your pastor for accepting such a blemished offering. You will be harming your church and your pastor by giving it, so give it somewhere else. Another church maybe, or maybe to help someone in need, or an organization that is truly helping people.

I almost agree with you on your last post dog... except for the 80% part. I would say that 100% of church members are sinners.

You are just so bitter brother. You gotta reconcile this thing and get it behind you.

I really do pray for you and I think that deep down inside you think you want to do the right thing.

You know as well as the rest of us that we have to tithe out of Biblical principal or from a sense of responsibility. God gave us that sense of responsibility. You really have to be contextually selective to argue against the tithe.

If someone reading this blog is not tithing and knows that they should then just start tithing up.

I also noticed the Lindsays' old house is for sale. I can say that they lived well but hardly in Mac's opulent splendor. And I don't think they had personal chefs and bodyguards and all the other freebies.

Calling a tither "brainless" and a "lemming" is altogether wrong and I do not think that it is at all reflective of Paul's teaching. Perhaps it is you who needs to study Galatians in a different light.

Perhaps not. You ignored the part where Paul said something about people needing to emasculate themselves.

As for bitterness, whichever anon it is, I think you've got the same problem: you're bitter because people don't fork over their membership dues and investment installments like they promised when they joined the club. Or is it a business? Whatever it is, it isn't the Body model of the NT.

You've already been challenged to "have faith" and trust God for the tithe instead of beating people over the head about it. But maybe that's too much to ask, so try appealing to their overall spiritual maturity instead. Had you been focusing on that, there'd be no need to whine about the tithe.

Can't any of you support tithing from scripture instead of shooting the messengers? Show us the verses and passages, explain them in context, and then be willing to be corrected.

What is it to you? Can't we talk? Who is our judge and master? I've had it up to here with people telling me what I can't say, what I can't do, where I can't go, when JESUS promised me freedom and a light burden. Let HIM deal with our hearts, and if we are sinning, show it to us in the scriptures.

It does not take a long and elaborate Bible study to come to the conclusion that the tithe is a good and fair way for church memebers to do their part. If you are gainfully employed, drive a new car, can afford to eat in restarurants several times per week, have your kids in expensive activities, travel, ... and if you do not pay your tithe, then you are sinning. And not only are you sinning, you are a deadbeat.

And while you're there, take a good long look at Galatians. Observe the language and expressions Paul uses, such as telling the circumcision types to "go the whole way and emasculate themselves". Would you rebuke him for that? Why not? Because he's above kindness and grace that you demand for everyone else? Or maybe, just maybe, there are times and places for strong talk?

Paul was writing under the direction and inspiration of the Holy Spirit... Is this what you are claiming for your words?

Can't any of you support tithing from scripture instead of shooting the messengers? Show us the verses and passages, explain them in context, and then be willing to be corrected.

It is obvious that you do not want to discuss anything but correct everything you disagree with.

The present attempts to discredit storehouse tithing are not valid to me because Jesus did not come to destroy the law (MT. 5:17). I also agree that the NT teaches total surrender (100% of all we are and have). The tithe is the starting place.

The storehouse in Malachi can be looked at this way:

The temple served as a warehouse for the produce the Israelites brought. The Levites then distributed it for sacrificial purposes, for their own domestic needs, and for whatever emergencies arose. So-called storehouse tithing does have a sound basis in this verse. Any private charity or gifts to Christian friends or institutions should be additional to the basic 10 percent demanded by God.

Which can easily be seen as the ministries of the church to meet peoples needs. We do that through an undesignated budget. Please note, the Levites needs were met out of this offering.

Now the first argument usually thrown out is, Jesus did not talk about it. There are many things Jesus did not talk about, do we dismiss them? That same argument is used by some baptists who want to support homosexuality, divorced pastors...

Now you can have your time to correct anything you wish. You can even call me names if it makes you feel better.

My question then is,do you think God accepts his children calling other people names?Was Paul exempt, or do you deny that he called people names?

You want to make not tithing a biblical discussion, great but why not let that also take foundation to other discussions we can have?

Nobody disputes the need for basing all our opinions on scripture, but this is a red herring. The question is scriptural basis for tithing, not the character of those who challenge it.

Paul was writing under the direction and inspiration of the Holy Spirit... Is this what you are claiming for your words?

You are avoiding the question. Of course Paul wrote under inspiration, but would the Spirit inspire him to sin? And did this same inspired Paul not tell us to follow his example in everything? Again I ask: was he or any other apostle above the principles they taught?

And why isn't your personal attack, accusing me of claiming divine inspiration for my words, a violation of those quoted scriptures from the Psalms and Matthew?

It is obvious that you do not want to discuss anything but correct everything you disagree with.Judging my motives is a personal attack and has nothing to do with sticking to scripture. Are you afraid there's no way to support your view? Continuing to only assert that you are right is not an argument at all. The storehouse in Malachi can be looked at this way:And the OT law has exactly what to do with the NT church? Now you can have your time to correct anything you wish. You can even call me names if it makes you feel better. You can have the last word.Now that's bitterness!

Anyone else willing to try and defend tithing for the church from the NT since that's where we get our teachings about the church?

It's your little sarcastic remarks on the video that irk me. You might be interested to know(unless the facts take away from your arguments) that youth choir music would cost about $2750 for 10songs for a choir that size. If you hire a good student choir director that would be about $45,000 a year. Transportation costs and advertising costs for the church and program that evening might add another $800. So 3 months of preparation for an event like that would be around $18,500. Some would argue it is not worth $18,500 for 125 students to prepare and sing at a mall. And that is a legitimate argument, but parents and students might argue otherwise. That $18,500 could have gone straight to the homeless and hungry. But what is the value attached to teenagers singing about Christ in the public forum? There is much more to the inside of church work than most laymen see. And shame on pastors and committees who don't explain costs very well.

Pastor Pryme, I did not see this 1st comment to you as judging your motives. It was you who stated:

"Show us the verses and passages, explain them in context, and then be willing to be corrected."

Do you not see how it sounds? I hope you would.

You ignored the fact that you judged my motives. But would you be happier if I had said "be OPEN to correction"? That's what I was getting at, that unless people are open to correction they have no business posing as a teacher.

"Continuing to only assert that you are right is not an argument at all. "

Where has the person you are speaking against asserted they are right?

When "tithing is mandatory" is repeated and repeated, that's assertion. Without scriptural support, that's assertion. Assertion is not argument.

with us how you see the comments from the anonymous person as bitter. I just don't see it.

I can't make you see it, sorry. But it seems obvious to me.

Where is the attack? All I see is a question, and a fair one at that since you compared your words to Paul's.

It's "a fair question" to insinuate that someone thinks their words are divine?? Sorry, but I don't play on uneven fields.

A gracious spirit will go much further than a haughty one.

Any comments on the verses about our language the commenter used?

I agree. Let's ALL be gracious, starting by not posing as judges of what shall and shall not be said here, especially by anyone who doesn't own the blog. All I ask is for everyone to abide by the same standards, which so far has not been the case. Pots are calling kettles "black", and true communication won't happen until we all abide by our own rules.

Which is why I keep trying to steer people back to the topic of tithing by citing scripture instead of all these diversions about what kind of people are making the arguments.

Will someone please present a scriptural, NT-based argument for tithing?

Jon said:There is much more to the inside of church work than most laymen see._______________________________The "volunteer unpaid laymen" are the inside foundation that makes up a church. They work full time and give full time volunteer service to their church without a paycheck.

Have to disagree, not only do laymen see and understand the operation of a church they also see the needs in Orphanages, Bible Colleges, Feeding Ministries, Prison Ministry, Medical Missions and on and on to support with their tithe.

It would be wise for the "fat cats" that make the 6 figure salaries at FBCJ to volunteer to take at least a 10% pay deduction during this economy crunch. That's what "for profit" business men are doing. Not only do they at FBCJ receive hefty incomes they likewise have mates who brings in a 2nd paycheck.

Give credit to the "laymen" who does understand good financial managment and who do tithe over and above. We do see!

But just to clarify: there is great value in the OT for many reasons, but when we want to know about the church and our lives as Christians, we must look primarily to the epistles. Jesus' parable of the wineskins, along with the bulk of Paul's writings, draw a sharp line between the old and new covenants.

"The present attempts to discredit storehouse tithing are not valid to me because Jesus did not come to destroy the law (MT. 5:17)."

That is right...but you need to finish the teaching...Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to_________.... What?

I think you misunderstand what is being taught by Jesus Christ in Matthew 5. Jesus fulfilled the law. He kept it perfectly even to the point of Sacrifice.

IT is hard for many to understand what is being taught about the New Covenant. It was the big news at the Last Supper. I can imagine that the jaws of the Apostles were dropping when Jesus announced it. They KNEW OT scripture. It is just that they were expecting it through their Jewish lens.

There are many more but all these passages point to the New Covenant. Jesus fulfilled the Old One during His ministry and at the Cross.

If an Old Covenant law is carried forward to the NC, it is always made clear. As we see in 1 John.

But it would be impossible to carry over the tithing laws (which added up to more than 30%) because the Temple veil was torn in two on the Cross. This symbolized the Temple where God dwells as the Holy Spirit is NOW in our hearts. It is no longer a seperate place.

Many also teach the law when it comes to the Sabbath teaching it as now Sunday. They carry over the Old Covenant to the new. In the New Covenant, everyday is a "Sabbath" and Holy.

If this is not so then why did Paul write this:

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,..Col 2

So, in the New Covenant, it is ok to meet with believers for Worship on Monday or even Sunday instead of Saturday. (wink)

If you keep the OT law, you will be judged by the law. Read Romans 2

We no longer need the law because He has taken our hearts of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh and circumcised that heart if we are saved. Note in Ez 36, He says He WILL do this. (Ez 36 and Romans 2)

I do not fault you for calling it 'tithe' as that is what you have been taught. And it is between you and your Savior what you give. But to dare teach that it must be 10% or more or to rebuke others who do not give 10%, that is not our place. Or even what folks give it for is not our business. The Holy Spirit might guide me to give anonymously to a needy family one month or for 6 mos. That is no ones business.

Some here seem to fear that if tithing is not taught, folks won't give. But the truth is that some are worried that they won't give blindly to the building and staff.

We have so long had traditions of maintaining a church building and 'professional Christians' that we think this is what scripture teaches. It isn't. And it means we read the Word in light of our traditions instead of what it really says. I know, I did this for years, too.

I agree with Pastor Pryme that it is a good idea to study the Word on this subject. And only use the Word to make points.

Where are we specifically taught in the NT to give 10% to maintain a building and staff after Pentecost?

Anonymous December 9, 2009 7:02 AM said... It does not take a long and elaborate Bible study to come to the conclusion that the tithe is a good and fair way for church memebers to do their part.

Unfortunately it appears that too few folks are willing to put in the very little time it does take to study this issue; they would rather just believe what they have always been taught without checking it out for themselves. Just a couple of hours of study (if even that) is all it takes to see from the Bible that Christians are not in any way compelled or commanded by God to practice mandatory storehouse tithing.

Anonymous December 9, 2009 8:00 AM said... You really have to be contextually selective to argue against the tithe.

No, no, no ... you really have to be contextually selective to argue that mandatory storehouse tithing is required of Christians. Reminds me of a favorite saying of one of my relatives, "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts."

The shame is that the Pastor is expected to stand up and try to motivate people to give. Personally, I think that the pastor should teach and preach the word. Christians should give joyfully and of their own accord. Not only as an act of obedience, but from a sense of responsibility. It is ridiculous to think it okay to sponge off the membership. I would not want to live with myself if I did not do my part. How others live with themselves while not tithing is simply a mystery. Why anyone would try and start a discussion against giving the tithe is mind boggling. It seems to me that their is way more Biblical fodder to support the tithe than there is against it.

Originally I thought that the storehouse tithe was dealing with the third tithe in robbing God in the inability to fulfill the welfare of the Israelites. I came to discover through the work of Dr. Russell Kelly's dissertation that it was to the Levitical priesthood who were in the Temple of Jerusalem. Also it would only actually be one percent of an Israelites fold and harvest. The tithe went to the Levitical tribe first and then a tithe of that went to Jerusalem. How can ten percent be a starting point then from Malachi 3 for the New Testament church. We need to get back to bearing each others burdens when it comes to our churches, this seems to be the only standard stated in the New Testament.

Show us the scriptures in the NT that mandate the tithe for Christians.

Please keep in mind that Gentiles were never under the old law, and that if Abraham's one-off tithe to one priest (no storehouse) is binding because it precedes Moses, then explain why circumcision is not in the same class. And show where God told Abraham that the tithe, like the sign of circumcision, was to be binding for all generations.

"Who are we to judge a preacher's heart for preaching tithing if that is where he is led to study and preach?"

We are to judge what is taught by the scriptures. Paul advises this in 1 Corin 14. It does not matter what is in the pastors 'heart'.

Who are you to judge my heart if I preach that women must veil and believe this to be true from my study? You would be derelict in your duty to uphold the Word if you did not judge what I taught.

The Bereans judged what Paul preached and nothing was said about what was in Paul's heart at the time. They searched the scriptures to make sure he was right. He commended them. He did not rebuke them for judgeing his heart.

When I see comments like this my heart just breaks. We must always study and question all teaching in order to mature in the Faith. One cannot be "led" by the Holy Spirit to preach OT tithing because it is not what is taught in the New Covenant. It is that simple.

Remember, tithing is not giving. Tithing is NOT what was practiced in the Body. Radical giving to brothers and sisters in need is what was practiced.

Matt

Another passage about the Law that should be read in context:

"21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

" How others live with themselves while not tithing is simply a mystery. Why anyone would try and start a discussion against giving the tithe is mind boggling. It seems to me that their is way more Biblical fodder to support the tithe than there is against it. "

Not one person has said that folks should NOT give. That is a strawman and shows you do not understand the Word. The topic is 'tithing' which is commanded in the OC Temple system. Are you saying your church is the Temple where God dwells and not your heart? Are you saying your pastor is really a Levite Priest? Do you all make animal sacrfices on the Sabbath, too?

The New Covenant teaches us to be much more radical in giving. But, unfortuantly it is not about maintaining buildings but helping the members of the Body and spreading the Gospel. That is why pastors do not teach the truth about giving. Pastors were not paid in the early church for that spiritual gift.

Now, are you also saying that if someone comes on hard times and cannot give, they should kill themselves?

I really do not get your point or understand your logic. The tithe is 10% by definition and, to my knowledge, there is no limit to what you can give. Church members should give freely and on their own accord.

I suppose that their are those that can give more and are compelled to do so. God Bless them. I do not know of any incidents where a member was kicked out of a church for not tithing.

Your giving is between you and the Lord. If you fail to give, then, you miss a blessing. If you enjoy the "Lifestyle" and you do not tithe then, at some level, you are a deadbeat.

I don't know why "who are you" is related to a list of logical fallacies, but they are terms of faulty reasoning. Surely the right dividing of the Word does not involve violating basic logic!

Are we to dismiss the Old Testament?

Dismiss? No. Cite as binding on the church? No.

I really do not get your point or understand your logic. The tithe is 10% by definition and, to my knowledge, there is no limit to what you can give. Church members should give freely and on their own accord.

The tithe is 10% but is only for the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Nobody is saying "give less", but only "give whatever the Spirit prompts you to give". We cannot give willingly and freely if it is by law or guilt.

Your giving is between you and the Lord.

Exactly. Which is why it is wrong to lecture people or judge their hearts if they argue against a legalistic percentage or attempts to put us back under "a burden neither we nor our fathers could bear".

If you fail to give, then, you miss a blessing.

Show us this NT scripture. And explain how it matches what you just said about it being between the person and God. But be careful not to equate "tithing" with "giving". Again, nobody is saying "don't give" or even "give less", but "don't tell me I must 'tithe' since there is NOT ONE NT SCRIPTURE mandating such".

If you enjoy the "Lifestyle" and you do not tithe then, at some level, you are a deadbeat.

Judgmental and fallacious. "Why do you judge someone else's servant" on a matter the NT is silent about?

Please, once again, all you supporters of the tithe who call any who argue against it deadbeats: put up the scripture or stop the accusations! Show us a NT COMMAND to tithe. Show us the curses or lack of blessings related to tithing. Back up your assertion or drop it.

When I see comments like this my heart just breaks. We must always study and question all teaching in order to mature in the Faith. One cannot be "led" by the Holy Spirit to preach OT tithing because it is not what is taught in the New Covenant. It is that simple.

What is taught in the NT? It seems very little so therefore it is best to erase what has been set previously.

Matthew 23:23 (NASB) "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

What are the others? It seems Jesus sis speaking of the lesser, of which he mentions, specifically, the tithe. Yet, I guess it is possible Jesus was speaking of something other than the tithe but it is interesting he mentioned the tithe.

In the first part of the words Jesus chose to use, it seems Jesus is not condemning the tithe but the heart of the one saying he was a tither.

In the first part of the words Jesus chose to use, it seems Jesus is not condemning the tithe but the heart of the one saying he was a tither.

And he said this to Jews. There were no Christians yet, because the church did not begin till Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given.

Definitive teachings for Christians are found in the epistles. Yes, we have much to learn from the gospels and the OT, but only the epistles tell us of the church and how Christians are to live. I still await quotes from those epistles on tithing.

""Definitive teachings for Christians are found in the epistles. Yes, we have much to learn from the gospels and the OT, but only the epistles tell us of the church and how Christians are to live."

... you are saying we can't learn how to live by reading the very words of Jesus. Oh, we can learn from them but they are not there to direct the church or the individual Christian is to live out their faith.

I am sadly amazed at such thoughts.

You keep asking for a passage telling us to keep tithing, I ask you to show us a NT passage that ends it. You can use the gospels also, if need be.

I had presumed before that people here knew the church did not begin in the gospels, but saw that I needed to be more specific.

... you are saying we can't learn how to live by reading the very words of Jesus. Oh, we can learn from them but they are not there to direct the church or the individual Christian is to live out their faith.

I am sadly amazed at such thoughts.

I am sadly amazed how hard it is to communicate with fellow believers.

When I say "how to live" I mean what RULES Christians are under, what LAW, since that's the issue here. I did say that we have much to learn from the rest of scripture, did I not?

And do you mean to say that we are bound to EVERY OT LAW simply because it's the Bible, regardless of who GOD says that law was for? Were you ever a Jew? If not, you were NEVER under the OT law and did not become under it when you were saved.

You keep asking for a passage telling us to keep tithing, I ask you to show us a NT passage that ends it. You can use the gospels also, if need be.

Show us a scripture that ends Sabbath keeping then. Do you keep the Sabbath? Why not? Jesus never ended it, nor did any of the apostles. Yet there is not one command in the epistles for us to keep it, nor any penalties for failing to keep it. And show us where Jesus or the apostles ended slavery. In fact, even the epistles have instructions on how slaves should behave. Is this not an endorsement of slavery, especially since it was never explicitly ended? This is where your argument takes you.

This is in fact a basic error, to say that we are bound by default to everything not specifically ended. Think about what you're saying... if a contract is fulfilled, do you still have to keep any and all details of that contract since they weren't itemized? Not at all; when a contract is ended, everything it contained is ended as well, without a need to state each item separately.

In the same way, when Jesus fulfilled the old law, He met EVERY obligation, every detail, on our behalf. And he is the priest of a new order. Read through Hebrews and you'll see that where the priesthood goes, so also goes the law. Therefore, Jesus did annul EVERY PART OF THE OLD LAW, and all who are in Him are under this new priesthood and new law.

And what is that new law? The law of love. That's it!

Gone is the burden the Jews could not bear; gone are the rituals, the sacred objects, the temple built of stone. WE are all the temple of the Holy Spirit; WE are the royal priesthood; WE are the very Body of Christ, who already met the obligations of the law.

Even in the gospels we see Jesus teach against mixing old and new, and telling us that the time had come to worship God in spirit and truth instead of in a particular place.

But at this point I'm convinced that no one will even try to produce a scripture that clearly commands Christians to tithe. Feel free to try and find one in the OT or the gospels if you wish, but make sure Christians are included, and that you are consistent in establishing as a law for us everything--- and I mean everything--- that wasn't specifically ended.

I know this is besides the main point, but Vinny, you use a school basketball team losing as a point? are you freakin nuts? now youre just making fun of high schoolers who dont really have much of a coach and who (most of them) have not played organized basketball before. i just read this post to learn more and discern on who's right by using the Bible, but your post is crazy.

For those who want to designate everything...the IRS says that the church cannot give you any contribution receipt for that designated offering, unless such designation is approved by the church. I may want to designate my money to paint the hallway pink, and the church may take my money and do so. BUT, if it was not a church-approved project, I do not receive tax credit.

Money with strings attached is not considered a tax-deductible contribution.

"Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal?" --- Acts 5:4

"Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little." --- 2 Cor. 8:13-15

A correction about the IRS and designated contributions and deductability. If the item appears in the church budget or any undesignated funds go from the church to that purpose, then it will still be deductable. A big exception is a donation that names a specific person to receive the money.

"In the same way, when Jesus fulfilled the old law, He met EVERY obligation, every detail, on our behalf. And he is the priest of a new order. Read through Hebrews and you'll see that where the priesthood goes, so also goes the law. Therefore, Jesus did annul EVERY PART OF THE OLD LAW, and all who are in Him are under this new priesthood and new law."

This is correct. Look at what Jesus told Peter about paying the Temple tax:

Matthew 17

24 When they had come to Capernaum those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?” 25 He said, “Yes.” And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?” 26 Peter said to Him, “From strangers.” Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. 27 Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money;[h] take that and give it to them for Me and you.”

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

What are the others? It seems Jesus sis speaking of the lesser, of which he mentions, specifically, the tithe. Yet, I guess it is possible Jesus was speaking of something other than the tithe but it is interesting he mentioned the tithe."

You have totally misunderstood what this means. The law was not fulfilled until AFTER the Cross and Resurrection. Up to that point, Jesus kept the law perfectly. He is rebuking them, btw, for their fake piousness in tithing their herb 'crops', while refusing to be just and merciful .

Do you find it odd that there is no reference to all the churches about tithing and what to do with their 'tithes' in the way of goods?

We read about offerings. The one we read about the most is the offering for the persecuted believers in Jerusalem that Paul was so concerned about.

Example:

25 But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints. 26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem. 27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things. Romans 15

1Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem1 Corin 16

Why no percentage? Why not repeat the percentage from back to Abraham? Note, Paul does NOT want collections made while he is there. He is not even going to touch the money.

"Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal?" --- Acts 5:4

"Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little." --- 2 Cor. 8:13-15

Giving and tithing... Call it Geranimo if you like. Use the Old Testament or the New Testament. It makes no difference. There are those that you can never make happy and that is final. The pastor has to spend some time addressing the tithe. How long do you suppose that a church would survive if the pastor got up and said "give if you can."

It is still your responsibility to pay up. Look around the church. The lights are on? Air conditioning runs? Hymnals available? Pastor preaching the word?

There is a cost associated with your sucking up the air and getting fed a sermon.

"It is more blessed to tithe than to deadbeat.""Thou shalt not deadbeat your fellow church members."

A fool and his money is soon parted. The love of money is the root of all evil.

It is apparent that while some believe in tithing there are others that do not. If any of you missed the Billy Graham Crusade (replayed recently) held in Chicago aired originally in 1962 you missed a great message last night on cablevision. Mr Graham said that many in the church are not saved and that at that time, 1962, churches were nothing more than SOCIAL CLUBS!!!(even though he does recommend going to a local church). He went on to discuss the real meaning of life and preached on what Jesus said " Remember Lot's wife". He preached on various scriptures dealing with end times and how our day current time related to what was transpiring in the days of Sodom.

Today, our churches have gotten frozen in time with programs and social meetings rather than dealing with preaching the whole counsel of God, reaching out to the lost in our city, orphans, widows, etc. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS WITNESSING TO LOST PEOPLE. We spend entirely too much time debating finances when people are dying and going to hell all around us. Money has become more important than salvation. What does your preacher preach most about? Wake up and deal with what the 11th commandment is "love your neighbor as yourself". That is the important issue of today and it is seldom if ever discussed, much less preached. It requires some effort and oftentimes knocking on some doors and picking up the telephone and telling someone we've hurt that we are sorry. Much hurt has come to members at the hands of pastors, elders, and lay persons. Oftentimes THEIR pride won't let THEM recognize their part in hurting others. They think anything THEY do is ordained by God, so what if it hurts another.

Man has become so self centered, he has taken his eyes off Jesus and keeps looking at himself. God help us!!!

Let's see. I was on my way to hell. Jesus saved me. So I need to give 10% of my wages to FBC Jacksonville, which the majority of the money given will go to salaries and benefits and to advertising and marketing. But what if I want to give back to GOD himself. Doesn't he say if you have done it to the least of these you have done it to ME? So shouldn't I give it to people, the least of these, and NOT to FBC Jax if I really want to give to God?

Why is the assumption being made that giving to the FBC Jax budget = giving to GOD?

And why didn't Jesus just tell us to give 10% of our money to the ekklesia or local body of believers? Why did he go out of his way to say the hungry, naked, poor, jailed?

I think these preachers are twisting and lying so they can manipulate people who love Jesus into giving money to them so they can spend it on nice cars, salaries, nice restaurants, world travel and friends and family.

I could be wrong. Please show me how I am wrong about this. Feel free to use Mac and Debbie and Trey and Maurilio as examples.

Giving and tithing... Call it Geranimo if you like. Use the Old Testament or the New Testament. It makes no difference.

Do you honestly not know the difference? Do you think everyone here is simply arguing about what it should be called?? Wow.

No, the issue is whether Christians are to fork over (as some have put it) a mandatory 10% of their income to a "church". That is completely different from giving an amount of one's own choosing to whomever the Spirit prompts the person. I sincerely hope that's clear now.

There are those that you can never make happy and that is final.

News at eleven. ;-)

The pastor has to spend some time addressing the tithe. How long do you suppose that a church would survive if the pastor got up and said "give if you can."

Oh, so a "church" cannot "survive" unless the people pay a tax to the "storehouse". Again I ask: is this a club, a business? Or is it a Body of people with various spiritual gifts who are to help each other and the poor, and support missionaries, as each of them "has purposed in their heart"?

It is still your responsibility to pay up. Look around the church. The lights are on? Air conditioning runs? Hymnals available? Pastor preaching the word?

You are describing a building, not a real church. And a paid hireling. I preach it for free, whenever and wherever, and let the Spirit move the hearts. If they have the Spirit and I preach the Word, giving from the heart will happen. I refuse to "beat my fellow servants".

There is a cost associated with your sucking up the air and getting fed a sermon.

You're beginning to sound "green". ;-)

Jesus didn't sell anything, and neither did Paul nor anyone else. Some with means supported them willingly and without coercion, while others earned their own living.

"It is more blessed to tithe than to deadbeat.""Thou shalt not deadbeat your fellow church members."

Making up scriptures now? Still calling names? This is the state of "churchianity" now, I'm afraid.

"No, the issue is whether Christians are to fork over (as some have put it) a mandatory 10% of their income to a "church". That is completely different from giving an amount of one's own choosing to whomever the Spirit prompts the person. I sincerely hope that's clear now."

Right. It is the difference between living under the law OR having a transformed heart with the indwelling Holy Spirit guiding all decisions in our lives. that is a huge difference.

"The pastor has to spend some time addressing the tithe. How long do you suppose that a church would survive if the pastor got up and said "give if you can.""

This is man centered teaching and why the Holy Spirit is absent from most of our churches. The man centered teaching wants to control and direct the giving which is why they teach a mythical tithe law in the NT.

I would recommend you google and find Paul Washer's prayer journal for a hint as to how giving works in the New Covenant.

You say;""YES, MY MONEY!!!! THAT I EARN AND CHOOSE TO DO WITH WHATEVER WAY GOD LEADS ME!!!!"

No, you are wrong. If you take this approach and mindset you will not know what God wants you to do with it because it is not yours, in any form or fashion, except to be a steward of His money.

Psalm 24:1 - The earth is the Lord's, and all it contains, the world, and those who dwell in it.

If I am wrong, I would appreciate you to show me where God says or even infers it is YOUR money?"__________________________________

So I guess since FBC Jax has "God's man", that money I earn and put into my bank account (can we at least agree on that)is actually Mac's to spend as he pleases? If it's not MY money, then who gets to spend it? Me or Mac? And if it is God's money, why does so much of it go to Mac and Deb and Trey and Maurilio?

So I guess since FBC Jax has "God's man", that money I earn and put into my bank account (can we at least agree on that)is actually Mac's to spend as he pleases? If it's not MY money, then who gets to spend it? Me or Mac? And if it is God's money, why does so much of it go to Mac and Deb and Trey and Maurilio?

From your remarks, it seems you go to FBCJ. Why? You don't like the pastor. You know he is not leaving. Why not go where you can be fed and grow spiritually.

If you don't attend FBCJ, then why are you giving your money to the church for (as you say) Mac and family?

if you are not giving money through FBCJ, then I really don't understand your comment other than it is a comment that is dishonest.

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About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"