tacster wrote:"The Grey Seas Under", by Farley Mowat. Great factual story about the operations of a North Atlantic rescue/salvage tug during the 1930's-40's. Hard to imagine what the crewmen endured, working in conditions from gales to hurricanes.

Do pick up The Serpent's Coil. Just as good. I think I stayed up all night reading it. Who needs movies when you have such great writing?

If you like humor, try his THe Boat Who Wouldn't Float next. I laughed myself sore over his description of going out to the outhouse on the "stage" over the water and looking down and seeing the swarming sculpins awaiting a treat. I also enjoyed his book about being a young man participating in the invasion of Italy. One is always so pleased to find a good writer who has written SO many books in so many genres.

All fine reads IMO, the Applebaum book provided great insight into Eastern Europe's post-war submission to the USSR.

Though I'm generally a non-fiction reader, I'll occasionally try a novel. I came across Alan Furst a few years ago. If you don't know his work, he's done a series of novels dealing with the years just prior to and during WWII. You mention Eastern Europe, the setting for most of his novels, along with France (Paris is his favorite city.). I found them to be generally historically correct, and fun reads. Lots of intrigue, suspense, spies and bad guys ( the Nazis, primarily) stories. He's a good writer.

Alan Furst is very much aping Eric Ambler, who *lived* during those times. Books like Mask of Demetrios/ Coffin for Demetrios and Journey into Fear, etc. are still classics (the first 6 or so Amblers). He even has 2 Soviet Russian spies as heroes in a couple of the books (he didn't break with communism until the show trials in the late 1930s). Ambler kind of invented the modern spy thriller (ie hapless hero walks into trouble-- sort of the anti James Bond). The novels are written with a sparse and simple prose (popular novels were shorter then) and are absolutely gripping.

that would take you on to Robert Littel, in particular his masterful history as novel of the CIA 'the Company'. I think the Matt Damon movie 'The Good Shepherd' is partly based on it (also there was an HBO series?).

And it might take you to Len Deighton (with Michael Caine doing fine movie renditions) The Ipcress File etc.

Austintatious wrote:The Last Lion: Defender of the Realm, 1940-1965, William Manchester's Vol. 3 of his "The Last Lion" work on the life and times of English Prime Minister Winston Churchill, largely completed by Paul Reid after Manchester's death. You'll be fighting the war from the perspective of the English people and from the personal perspective of Churchill.

I just finished The Grand Alliance, the 3rd book in WC's series on WWII (I picked up a 1953 copy for pennies). Very interesting. I loved reading all his correspondence. A stroll through Amazon has bagged me most of the others for cheap.

Of all the famous people in history, I'd like to have lunch with WC. I'd promise not to ask a thing, just listen.

It's worth reading Andrew Roberts or Max Hastings histories of WW2 (or Antony Beevor's). All 3 are 'Tory historians' but they are quite prepared to take on Churchill's mistakes and the outright distortions in WC's own accounts of the war. In fact I think Hastings wrote a book about Churchill in WW2.

Churchill was indispensable, probably, but his actual moment of glory was really only about 18 months, to the end of 1942. After that his contribution to victory is increasingly questionable (Aegean disaster, anyone?). It is little wonder the American High Command and Marshall and Eisenhower became so frustrated with him.

nisiprius wrote:I liked it. I learned some history. If you're interested in WWI and already know you like Shaara, I'd definitely read it, though if you're a WWI buff you may already know the history. BTW The Killer Angels isn't by Jeff Shaara; it's by his father, Michael Shaara.

Thanks for the info. I keep forgetting that there were two Shaaras, probably because I've only read the one book by either of them.

Regarding his premise about the American role, I haven't yet read widely enough to have an informed opinion on that. My impression is that all of the major powers were nearly exhausted by early 1918 when the Americans started showing up in large numbers, so they may well have decided the outcome, or at least the timing of the outcome. Had they entered the war earlier, they might have played a less noticeable role simply because their numbers were far smaller than those of the Europeans.

I have a Kindle from a few years ago, but have largely given up on it for various reasons, poor image quality certainly being one of them.

First you had the immense American industrial machine. Also by that time most combatants would have been starving (and the Germans were actually starving) if American food had not been available, carried often in American ships. This was all available to the British before America formally entered the war, but the entry opened up American credit (not sure if the borrowing had begun before as well), which was also key.

The USN was pretty important in finishing off the U Boat war, as I recall.

I cannot remember the exact size of Black Jack Pershing's American Expeditionary Force but I believe it numbered several hundred thousand. That, plus all the new aircraft and other materiel the Americans brought was crucial- -airplanes, tanks to break the front line, etc.. The French and the British (and the Germans) were exhausted and had run out of fresh soldiers-- that year's 18 year olds was what you had.

So the Americans completely tipped the balance, a key role in the final offensives. Without it the Allies would have lost, or been forced into some kind of Armistice with Germany on much worse terms. The Bolsheviks under Lenin had signed a humiliating peace treaty granting the Germans control of the vast fertile fields and coal mines of the Ukraine, and in another harvest that would have been a huge advantage.

Of course what we know now is that the 1919 Spanish flu lay ahead, which killed as many people as the war-- how that would have changed the strategic balance I do not know.

What I can't strike the balance between (and John Keegan is the first place I'd look being an Americophile but a serious military historian) is between the American industrial and raw materials available *before* the USA declared war, and the actual US forces. But those forces were substantial enough, in 1918, to tip the balance. Remembering that only weeks earlier the British and French had been in full retreat against the German advance which apparently had finally broken through the nightmare of 'No Man's Land' and the trenches.

Valuethinker wrote:First you had the immense American industrial machine. Also by that time most combatants would have been starving (and the Germans were actually starving) if American food had not been available, carried often in American ships. This was all available to the British before America formally entered the war, but the entry opened up American credit (not sure if the borrowing had begun before as well), which was also key.

Great point. I was rather narrowly thinking of the American contribution in terms of boots on the ground, but of course the supply of food, weapons, and other resources is just as important. The only WWI book I've read, Meyer's A World Undone, touched only lightly on this aspect of the war, and heavily on the battles. Can you recommend a good book which focuses more on the non-fighting aspects of the war? Industrial production, economics, politics, diplomacy, etc. Is Keegan good on these subjects?

Valuethinker wrote:First you had the immense American industrial machine. Also by that time most combatants would have been starving (and the Germans were actually starving) if American food had not been available, carried often in American ships. This was all available to the British before America formally entered the war, but the entry opened up American credit (not sure if the borrowing had begun before as well), which was also key.

Great point. I was rather narrowly thinking of the American contribution in terms of boots on the ground, but of course the supply of food, weapons, and other resources is just as important. The only WWI book I've read, Meyer's A World Undone, touched only lightly on this aspect of the war, and heavily on the battles. Can you recommend a good book which focuses more on the non-fighting aspects of the war? Industrial production, economics, politics, diplomacy, etc. Is Keegan good on these subjects?

I'd recommend David Stevenson's Cataclysm for the political/diplomatic side.

Historian Paul Johnson, probably in Modern Times, lays out some unusual perspectives on the US intervention in WW I. I no longer have the book, but it's drifting around in thrift stores and garage sales.

Well not really reading any books, but everyday back and forth to work in the car, I listen to the free audiobooks on my I phone. All the classics are free. Just finished Moby Dick, now just started The Count of Monti Cristo. Try it, you may like it.

fishdrzig wrote:Well not really reading any books, but everyday back and forth to work in the car, I listen to the free audiobooks on my I phone. All the classics are free. Just finished Moby Dick, now just started The Count of Monti Cristo. Try it, you may like it.

fishdrzig wrote:Well not really reading any books, but everyday back and forth to work in the car, I listen to the free audiobooks on my I phone. All the classics are free. Just finished Moby Dick, now just started The Count of Monti Cristo. Try it, you may like it.

Go to App Store on I phone -- go to search ---type in Aundiobooks---download the first free one that pops up(Cross forward consulting books)---once downloaded ---go to popular books, just click on the free versions and enjoy

Go to App Store on I phone -- go to search ---type in Aundiobooks---download the first free one that pops up(Cross forward consulting books)---once downloaded ---go to popular books, just click on the free versions and enjoy

Oh, I didn't notice the "I" when I read your previous post. I wonder if there is something comparable available for Android phones? I checked the analogous store ("Google Play") but it is rather strictly regimented into Apps, Books, Movies&TV, and Music, and a search for audiobooks didn't unearth much.

[edit] Oh, wait... There's an "Audiobooks" app published by "Traveling Classics" which looks promising. Will give it a try.

Valuethinker wrote:First you had the immense American industrial machine. Also by that time most combatants would have been starving (and the Germans were actually starving) if American food had not been available, carried often in American ships. This was all available to the British before America formally entered the war, but the entry opened up American credit (not sure if the borrowing had begun before as well), which was also key.

Great point. I was rather narrowly thinking of the American contribution in terms of boots on the ground, but of course the supply of food, weapons, and other resources is just as important. The only WWI book I've read, Meyer's A World Undone, touched only lightly on this aspect of the war, and heavily on the battles. Can you recommend a good book which focuses more on the non-fighting aspects of the war? Industrial production, economics, politics, diplomacy, etc. Is Keegan good on these subjects?

I haven't read Keegan in such a long time, and I no longer have the copy, but I think that would be the place to start.

I would say the US entry into WW1 was decisive. However what I can't split is the US contribution *before* entry in terms of economics, vs. its military + economic contribution post entry.

Fairly sure, though, that US Expeditionary Force in France was crucial to the final victories. Neither France nor Britain had enough left.

It's always worth, when thinking about WW1 and WW2, remembering Stalin's dictum 'British ships, American machines, Russian blood'. (I think that's what he said-- I am paraphrasing-- he might have said British airfields). It does capture WW2 perfectly, and WW1 to an extent.

gkaplan wrote:I read Barbara Tuchman's Guns of August years ago and thought it was excellent. Anyone still read this?

I have it on my to-read pile, along with what might be considered the prequel, The Proud Tower: A Portrait of the World Before the War, 1890-1914. Looking forward to reading both, but probably won't get to them for a few months.

gkaplan wrote:I read Barbara Tuchman's Guns of August years ago and thought it was excellent. Anyone still read this?

I don't know how it stacks up historically, whether serious historians agree with it, whether Tuchman had done her homework, whether more recent research has overturned its conclusions.

It is a cracking read. Reputedly Kennedy had read it before the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that was instrumental in his efforts to 'find a way out' of the seemingly inevitable march to war. Once has to be careful, because that leads one into the realm of the JFK hagiography.

But Tuchman did undoubtedly view it as having a didactic purpose-- to warn political leaders then, in the depths of the Cold War, about how 'unstoppable' forces led to disaster because they lacked the courage to change course.

A Dead Statesman

I could not dig; I dared not rob:Therefore I lied to please the mob.Now all my lies are proved untrueAnd I must face the men I slew.What tale shall serve me here amongMine angry and defrauded young?

fishdrzig wrote:Well not really reading any books, but everyday back and forth to work in the car, I listen to the free audiobooks on my I phone. All the classics are free. Just finished Moby Dick, now just started The Count of Monti Cristo. Try it, you may like it.

My thanks to Nisiprius for sharing (on another thread) some of the zany (but how uncommon, really?) thoughts of Hermione and Her Little Group of Serious Thinkers by Don Marquis. I've just finished this quick and fun read and in turn have to share at least a portion of a chapter on "Voke Easely and His New Art," showing how Hermione can instantly zero in on what's most important!! - in this case, Voke's Adam's apple:

"The most remarkable thing about Voke Easely at a casual glance is his Adam's apple. It is not only the largest Adam's apple I have ever seen, and the hardest looking one, and the most active one, but it is also the most intelligent looking one." And she continues, "But all the personality which his eyes should show, all the force which should dwell in his nose, all the temperamental qualities that should reveal themselves in his mouth and chin, all the genius which should illumine his brow - these dwell with his Adam's apple. The man has run entirely to that feature; his moods, his emotions, his thoughts, his passions, his appetites, his beliefs, his doubts, his hopes, his fears, his resolve, his despairs, his defeats, his exaltations - all, all make themselves known subtly in the eccentric motions of that unusual Adam's apple."

"Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing." -William James

I just started a collection called The Thurber Carnival by, of course, James Thurber. First story up was "The Lady on 142." It reminded me how hilarious Thurber is; to me, at least. This book includes excerpts from some of his other works, plus poetry, cartoons, and miscellany.

denismurf wrote:I just started a collection called The Thurber Carnival by, of course, James Thurber. First story up was "The Lady on 142." It reminded me how hilarious Thurber is; to me, at least. This book includes excerpts from some of his other works, plus poetry, cartoons, and miscellany.

Another Thurber fan here. Also especially good, I thought, is James Thurber, His Life and Times .

"Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing." -William James

V is for Vengeance by Sue Grafton. I've been reading these, in order, from her very first and still find them interesting. Some are better than others, of course, which is what could be expected in a long running series such as this.

gkaplan wrote:V is for Vengeance by Sue Grafton. I've been reading these, in order, from her very first and still find them interesting. Some are better than others, of course, which is what could be expected in a long running series such as this.

I read the series in order over the last year or so... don't you find it interesting tracking her appearance on her jacket photos? Both the way she ages, but also the evidence of success, as shown in early pictures looking like black-and-white amateur snapshots while the later ones are in color and obviously taken by a professional.

I was fascinated to read, in the introduction to Kinsey and Me, that she made an intentional choice to have Kinsey age "one year for every two-and-a-half books."

In many (well, some) of her earlier books, the jacket had her posing with a VW Beetle (the original model). I haven't noticed that in recent books. In V for Vengeance, Kinsey has traded in her Bug for a 1970 Mustang, which she regrets because it's so conspicuous in stakeouts.