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But still the thought plagued me that what I was doing wasn't "right." By eating these eggs, I was essentially saying "This other being should endure a life that I would consider lacking so that I, King Human, can eat her unborn babies."

Grok didn't have to worry that the meat he ate might have lived on a feedlot, descended from a long line of suffering at human hand.

I can't trust that it's clean or that it died painlessly--I can't even trust that it wasn't strung up by its hind leg while still alive and murdered while fully conscious. After reading about the way animals' immune systems respond to stress (the same way ours do, incidentally--with masses of cortisol, adrenaline, etc. stored in their tissue), the nagging thought in the back of my mind that I was inheriting some kind of mortal pain with the chicken I ate seems truer than ever.

The "modern world" is based on mass cruelty and suffering. Animals are regarded as lesser beings, their suffering as just "part of the food chain," a step in between alive and on our plates that we choose conveniently not to think about.

I have to say I agree with Chaco on this one. I think veganism is inherently moralizing it's just that some vegans do a better job than others of keeping their moralizing to themselves.

The above is massively heavy on emotionally charged and very judgement laden rhetoric.

Of course everyone can do as they wish and I wish the OP well. But don't tell me that there is not a whole lot of holier than thou going on in that post.

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This....
And a lot of those people aren't above misinformation. I remember my last straw was a vegan who took issue with my horse. The cruelty I was invoking by being her master. And I was like WTF? My horse could kill or trample me at any time. She could easily jump the fence and run away. Instead, she wanders up to me looking food and pets. She was telling my boyfriend how horses are regularly beaten.... it was bizarre to see someone so certain about something they had actually no clue about.

Speaking of horses- I'd like to point out to whoever it was that said because men were bigger they would take the sex they wanted, that this is not the case in horses. Stallions are bigger and stronger, but if he approaches a mare that is not interested, there's an excellent chance he will get his cojones kicked off. Literally. A smart male will protect his cojones by preferring willing females.

http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

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Unfertilized eggs aren't anymore an unborn baby than is menstrual blood. A fertilized egg will often have what looks like a blood spot in the yolk. "Candling" methods have become so good that I can't remember the last time I got a fertilized egg from a grocery store - certainly not in the last decade or more.

Kosher meat is slaughtered while still conscious. It makes no sense business wise to try to slaughter a conscious animal because that would take more time. So, meat that isn't Kosher was most likely unconscious before it was killed.

Animals are lesser beings. Hence the term "food chain." We are their stewards, and as such, we should do our job responsibly, which CAFOs do not do. So purchasing from smaller farms is one way to stay an omnivore and still be ethical.

Vitamin B12 is not naturally available to Vegans which is why I don't believe that Veganism is natural. However, it is available in supplements, so a Vegan, if knowledgeable, may be able to live a healthy life. Protein is also tough for a Vegan, especially if they shun soy/tofu, which in this country is GMO about 90% of the time. That pretty much means beans, because using grains for a protein source will make you fat.

Maybe Grok's food animal wasn't on a food lot, but with primitive tools, Grok probably took a little longer to kill it - and I doubt he stunned it first (but maybe there was some head bashing).

Produce does not come without a price. The average lifespan for a migrant farmworker is 49 years old, compared to the 73 years for the average American.

It is important to check the downside before one rushes into a way of life. Any time something seems too good to be true (tofu for eg.), it's a good idea to at least google something like, "what are the negative effects to ________?" You can put almost anything in that phrase and find something written. You may not agree with it, but at least you will have looked at both sides.

"Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

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Good for you if this is what works. Everyone is different, so you never know.

Reading your post, I did get some worries. You seem like you may have some obsessive tendencies-going overboard on every new thing. Fanaticism is no way to live, and losing yourself in each new "savior" is pretty harmful. Take it easy and see how you feel. Good luck.

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"The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins is a must read for those interested in the philosophy and morals in this thread. Don't worry, it's not about philosophy, it's about evolution.

Some great perspectives in this thread! I love hearing well reasoned perspectives on ethical animal consumption. So many vegans in my circle of friends who are quite adamant in their views.

Vegan morality and ideology (often misguided but well-intentioned) gets mixed up in arguments for health.

If veganism was all about health, it wouldn't be a totalitarian concept. One could achieve 95% of the (IMO misguided) moral goals of veganism if one ate animal products only one day a week. More people would be willing to adopt the concept as well.

...Vegans deal in absolutes, just like the Sith.

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Good for you if this is what works. Everyone is different, so you never know.

Reading your post, I did get some worries. You seem like you may have some obsessive tendencies-going overboard on every new thing. Fanaticism is no way to live, and losing yourself in each new "savior" is pretty harmful. Take it easy and see how you feel. Good luck.

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Perhaps in Grok's time I'd be a welcome member of your tribe since I wouldn't compete for the same foods as you.

No you wouldn't because you would be a huge liability for several reason, one being you wouldn't share in the hunting/processing of game to feed the tribe, and two you wouldn't be able to keep up with the robust stamina of each and every member of the tribe, thus a liability. If call BS that you've been primal for as long as you claim, this thread is rather comical and sad at the same time, kind of like a trainwreck. I may even be a little disappointed in myself by indulging your ego and posting on this thread.

You'll never see the light if you're in someone else's shadow, or said another way, life is like a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the scenery never changes