True, but consider this: In USA over 80% (if i remember correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong) of the citizens believe in creationism. That is just insane! Here in the Nordic countries almost half of the whole population are atheists. I'm not saying that it makes us any smarter, but it certainly shows that the educational differences between USA and Europe are huge.

In USA over 80% (if i remember correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong) of the citizens believe in creationism. That is just insane!

I'm pretty sure the number is much lower than that. It's really around 40%. Still ridiculous though.

There's a wonderful Nova documentary here about how creationism nearly became part of the science curriculum in one town in the US, and the issue went to Federal court and nearly destroyed the town's community.

This sort of nonsense is commonplace in the US today, and is becoming even more so.

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Here in the Nordic countries almost half of the whole population are atheists. I'm not saying that it makes us any smarter, but it certainly shows that the educational differences between USA and Europe are huge.

Yes. There also seems to be a north-south trend involved as well. Most of the countries with better education and understanding of science, and lower religiosity, tend to be located farther north. Even within the United States that trend exists, with the best schools and least religious people located more northward; the large exception is the midwest (northern-middle US).

There is also a large north-south divide concerning wealth in the world. These differences were used as the basis for an eventual global crisis in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy.

Yes. There also seems to be a north-south trend involved as well. Most of the countries with better education and understanding of science, and lower religiosity, tend to be located farther north. Even within the United States that trend exists, with the best schools and least religious people located more northward; the large exception is the midwest (northern-middle US).

I have noticed that as well.

Is the sun making people dumber or is it just coincidence? Even here in Europe the southern countries seem to be going bankrupt, while the northern countries seem to be doing fine. And i don't think we even need to mention the state of Africa. I remember reading about a study on how colder and darker environments made humans evolve to be smarter. The study was't very popular, because it implied that Africans are stupid and that was considered racist.

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I'm pretty sure the number is much lower than that. It's really around 40%. Still ridiculous though.

In my opinion, if the number is large enough to be measurable, then it's a serious problem. Whether it is 5%, 40%, or 80% is just a detail. In any case, it's a serious problem.

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I remember reading about a study on how colder and darker environments made humans evolve to be smarter.

Perhaps the environmental effect in this case is one of developmental psychology rather than intelligence. Maybe the different environments predispose people to different ways of thinking. Or maybe it's something different altogether.

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And i don't think we even need to mention the state of Africa.

Africa is in a mess, but much of that is due to the severe effects that imperial colonialism had on the continent, and more directly to religious and cultural bigotry. Africa would probably not be nearly as strife ridden today if it had not been brutally conquered and divided by European imperialism.

Also, look here at the median age of the populations of most of Africa's countries. In addition to all their other troubles, they are populated largely by teenagers. Not a good situation.

On a related note, I firmly believe that the conflict in Palestine is as severe and troublesome as it is entirely due to the way in which the British Empire prepared the land for the creation of Israel. The most severe points of conflict there can trace their roots to the way the British handled that situation. There would of course be conflict regardless, but I think that it would have been minor if not for that.

On a related note, I firmly believe that the conflict in Palestine is as severe and troublesome as it is entirely due to the way in which the British Empire prepared the land for the creation of Israel. The most severe points of conflict there can trace their roots to the way the British handled that situation. There would of course be conflict regardless, but I think that it would have been minor if not for that.

True.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)

Perhaps the environmental effect in this case is one of developmental psychology rather than intelligence. Maybe the different environments predispose people to different ways of thinking. Or maybe it's something different altogether.

I think cold and harsh environment forced people into cooperation and more innovative thinking in the northern regions during prehistoric times.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)

Africa is in a mess, but much of that is due to the severe effects that imperial colonialism had on the continent, and more directly to religious and cultural bigotry. Africa would probably not be nearly as strife ridden today if it had not been brutally conquered and divided by European imperialism.

True. Egypt for example was once one of the most civilized nations in the world, but then it was conquered by Rome and has gone downhill since. Africa had many successful civilizations through history, but they were all either devolved into tribes or destroyed by Europeans.

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Also, look here at the median age of the populations of most of Africa's countries. In addition to all their other troubles, they are populated largely by teenagers. Not a good situation.

That's what you get when you have Christians "helping" them and "educating" them about the dangers of using a condom...

When the Pope had his speech on how condoms help spread HIV in Africa, i just wanted to hit that old fart in the face.

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There's a wonderful Nova documentary here about how creationism nearly became part of the science curriculum in one town in the US, and the issue went to Federal court and nearly destroyed the town's community.

I still can't believe how you Americans can still have debates about a scientific theory, that is over 100 years old and can be proven by evidence and observed in action (dogs) .

Africa had many successful civilizations through history, but they were all either devolved into tribes or destroyed by Europeans.

Or corrupted by religion when Christianity and Islam swept through, though there were certainly places that thrived even under religious influence (I trust everyone knows the story of Mansa Munsa and the great hajj?) Religion is more of a corrupting force in African societies in modern times than it was a millennium ago, so maybe it can be ruled out as a major root cause.

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That's what you get when you have Christians "helping" them and "educating" them about the dangers of using a condom...

Just what I was saying in my previous paragraph.

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When the Pope had his speech on how condoms help spread HIV in Africa, i just wanted to hit that old fart in the face.

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I still can't believe how you Americans can still have debates about a scientific theory, that is over 100 years old and can be proven by evidence and observed in action (dogs) .

Why use critical thinking when you could ask your pastor about the truth? /sarcasm Thinking hurts their little heads, and they fear the implications of a worldview that suggests that they are not of cosmic significance. Is the human ego so large and fragile that people really have to believe that the entire universe was created solely for them?

Plus, when you have been indoctrinated from a young age to believe that something is true, and that you're going to suffer for eternity if you stray from the path, then it is very difficult to break away from that point of view. It was pretty difficult for me when I stopped being a Christian, and I was never indoctrinated very strongly as a child, and was raised with a strong understanding of science. I can only imagine how hard it must be for someone raised in a fundamentalist, anti-science household to break free of religion.

Plus, when you have been indoctrinated from a young age to believe that something is true, and that you're going to suffer for eternity if you stray from the path, then it is very difficult to break away from that point of view. It was pretty difficult for me when I stopped being a Christian, and I was never indoctrinated very strongly as a child, and was raised with a strong understanding of science. I can only imagine how hard it must be for someone raised in a fundamentalist, anti-science household to break free of religion.

I find this strange, since here in Finland religion is a big part of elementary school. When i was in the first grade, we had to gather to the school hall every morning for a hymn and In kindergarten we had to pray before and after every meal. At home, my parents had these small angel-statues as decorations all over the place.

Still i never really believed in any of that stuff, even after being raised in a heavily christian environment.

And as i said, almost half of the population here are atheists. (20% don't belong to any church, but i know that many people are in a church for other reasons than religion.)

I find this strange, since here in Finland religion is a big part of elementary school. When i was in the first grade, we had to gather to the school hall every morning for a hymn and In kindergarten we had to pray before and after every meal.

That's not the same thing as being told every day by your parents that everything in the Bible is literally true, that the world is 6000 years old, and that atheists and scientists are immoral liars, and being forced to attend fundamentalist churches 2-3 times per week, and being made to study the bible every day as the inerrant word of God, and having God's love and wrath held over your head for every little thing you do. It sounds crazy, but I personally know people raised that way, much of my family is like that. This is the source of the strong indoctrination that grips much of the United States' population.

That's not the same thing as being told every day by your parents that everything in the Bible is literally true, that the world is 6000 years old, and that atheists and scientists are immoral liars, and being forced to attend fundamentalist churches 2-3 times per week, and being made to study the bible every day as the inerrant word of God, and having God's love and wrath held over your head for every little thing you do. It sounds crazy, but I personally know people raised that way, much of my family is like that. This is the source of the strong indoctrination that grips much of the United States' population.

Sound horrible!

We have small cults that try to raise children in that way, but it's made really hard for them, since school in here is mandatory for at least 9 years. After the sixth grade the religious aspect of school ends and science becomes more important. Many become atheists during those last 3 years.

You also can't drop out of school, unless you're mentally retarded, so parents can't cheat their children out of school by making them fail the tests or something. They just have to repeat their grades until they pass.

Also, becasue of the tax breaks here there is literally a 'church' on every corner of the US, especially in the south. I mean, just down my main road there is this shack of a church that used to be a cheap seafood restaurant. All they did was put a cross on it and call it some christian name with a sign on it. Nice little tax shelter there.

"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers" - Carl Sagan

All they did was put a cross on it and call it some christian name with a sign on it. Nice little tax shelter there.

This is another common problem in the US. Churches get the same sort of financial benefits of charity organizations, yet only a very small amount of the money that churches receive is actually used for charitable purposes. This makes no sense to me. Why should they be given benefits? Why do the people of this country place so much value in "faith"?

This is another common problem in the US. Churches get the same sort of financial benefits of charity organizations, yet only a very small amount of the money that churches receive is actually used for charitable purposes. This makes no sense to me. Why should they be given benefits? Why do the people of this country place so much value in "faith"?

Fortunately you can still leave your country if you wish, unlike those poor people in Islamic countries.

Fortunately you can still leave your country if you wish, unlike those poor people in Islamic countries.

Technically yes, though many Americans can not actually afford to move to another country. The per capita GDP is nearly identical between Finland and the US, but the distribution of wealth is much less equal in the US than it is in Finland, so in reality the typical American would be poorer than the typical Finn.

I would love to live in a nordic country. Especially Norway with all those fjords. Spent some hours last year jsut touring those countries in google maps/ pictures. Just a nice little country cottage with highspeed internet is all id need.

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This is another common problem in the US. Churches get the same sort of financial benefits of charity organizations, yet only a very small amount of the money that churches receive is actually used for charitable purposes. This makes no sense to me. Why should they be given benefits? Why do the people of this country place so much value in "faith"?

Ive seen a few priests/pastors with Cadillacs and other fancy cars.

"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers" - Carl Sagan

Technically yes, though many Americans can not actually afford to move to another country. The per capita GDP is nearly identical between Finland and the US, but the distribution of wealth is much less equal in the US than it is in Finland, so in reality the typical American would be poorer than the typical Finn.

I have heard of this problem.

What i have gathered it's the wealthy tycoons that have most of the wealth, while there are many ordinary citizens that have very little income.

Over here we have excellent social service and nearly no homeless people (sucks to be homeless when it can get -35c during the winter ) or beggars.

Only beggars we do have are some immigrants that do it for a habit, or have not conquered the language barrier and gone to get jobs or social service.

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I would love to live in a nordic country. Especially Norway with all those fjords. Spent some hours last year jsut touring those countries in google maps/ pictures. Just a nice little country cottage with highspeed internet is all id need.

I have been in Norway and i can tell you that those pictures in google have no comparison on the real thing. Only reason i'm not moving there is the unbelievably difficult language and the fact that i can drive there in few hours.