Originally posted by mmiichael
Reasonable people largely don't respond to this Jew hatred trying to mask itself as historical inquiry.

I don't see any Jew hatred here at all. A Jewish scholar said this in the Toronto Star's article. So please tell me, where is the Jew hatred here at
all? I'm and also the others are just curious, how is this possible that even a scholar who is teaching the Holocaust, who is expert in the Holocaust
is saying this that even THEY CAN'T PROVE the 99% of the Holocaust at all.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by Sharrow]

He's not an expert on the Holocaust. He only claims to be an expert on the architechture of the town of Auschwitz. He has written one book on the
town and its role in the Holocaust And Van Pelt is not Jewish. RFead the article and the book in full. His disdain for the negationists, as he calls
Holocaust deniers, is obvious.

In the successful defence of Deborah Lipstadt, van Pelt was one of the four internationally distinguished Holocaust historians
who served as expert witnesses, and he defended the 770 page report he produced during five days of cross-examination.

It is another contradiction regarding your claim.

So, are you saying that the Ops whole thread is based on misinformation? Because, that is what I am getting from your statement. I'm shocked -
not.

There is no misinformation, rather he is trying to misinform us. Look after Van Pelt. He is a Holocaust expert regarding the present
knowledge.

Yes it IS some conspiracy and there are enough quotes from zionists themselves over the centuries (yes you heard me right, centuries) to prove beyond
all doubt that they were planning for the long term and were thinking BIG. Google Albert Pike's predictions of three world wars to get an idea of
what I mean and then combine that with my previous post on this thread regarding who was really behind the Bolshevik revolution.

I want to be clear that I don't believe that all jews are zionists nor do I believe that all zionists are jews, but most zionists ARE jews and when
you follow the money spent to achieve zionist goals back to its source you will invariably find jewish bankers involved somewhere along the line.
Their only 'god' is money and they believe the end justifies the means EVEN if that includes sacrificing fellow jews.

For starters, the official Red Cross concentration camp death toll is 271,301.

The typical defensive response to this is: Numbers don't matter. It doesn't matter whether 271,301 Jews suffered or 6,000,000; they still suffered.
This translates to 'Quantity being insignificant.' A Lesser Quantity is irrelevant in subject to a Greater Quantity.

Really? Numbers don't matter? Whether something is less or more is psychologically insignificant? Observe the examples below:

The leaves blew across the field.
vs.
The autumn leaves rustled across the open plain propelled by the gust of mother nature.

Hummer H2: 10 MPG
vs.
Honda Civic DX: 35 MPG

Ipod Touch Price: $199 aka The Cent Sale Tactic
vs.
$200

Still skeptical? Oh, numerical values in material things don't translate well to human loss of life? Really? Observe
again below:

Your loved ones are in a car accident:

1 of them Die
vs.
They All Die

There's a terrorist attack in a mall:

2 People are Killed
vs.
57 People are Killed

Nazi Germany Holocaust:

271,301 Jews Killed
vs
6,000,000 Jews Killed

The difference is 5,728,699 Jews NOT killed in the Holocaust.

Numbers psychologically matter. It's a fact. It is the absolute difference on whether something is cheap or expensive just as it is a measurement on
whether a catastrophic event is tragic or less tragic. To say numbers don't matter is to go against common and mathematical sense.

That said, if a serious account such as human life was exaggerated by 5,728,699 dead, what else was exaggerated?

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
Thought I'd add: A good amount of deaths of Jews in concentration camps were caused by disease, not executions. When you have large amounts of
prisoners living in severe conditions, there are going to be negative results.

The concentration camps make more sense seen as a disinfectant camp.

You get your head shaved at a disinfectant camp for lice, not at a gas chamber (why shave your head?)

There were claims that the Jewish hair was used to make mattresses for German women, but yet the hair is still at the concentration camps to this day.

Zyklon B gas was used, at the delousing chamber to delouse the cloths so they would not spread disease. The walls have high Zyklon B residue, which is
why the camps had so many canisters of Zyklon B, the gas chambers themselves have no such residue.

There were many nurses that worked at the concentration camps, which would make more sense for a disinfectant camp and not a gas chamber.

I believe the concentration camps had rampant disease and were most likely cut off from essential supplies. Over 50 million people died in world war
2, clearly a banker caused war, and most of the bankers were Jewish, yet none of them died in the Holocaust. They used the Holocaust as a cover,
because they were afraid people were onto their little conspiracy, and so Truth telling became Anti-Semitic. Just my personal take on the history of
World War 2.

And your personal take is a page full of nauseating crap. I have been to Poland and have seen Auschwitz and Berkenau where the actual killings took
place.

He did not consider that this might be misconstrued in the least and therefore he was being irresponsibly ignorant in context and while I can
certainly understand that the buildings may be falling into disrepair, his statement itself with that quoted 1% proof is detrimental and as well quite
damaging to the Holocaust survivors.

Yes, the Holocaust may in fact be one of the most documented events in history, but we must never forget the events that led up to it, and the people
who got the monster, Adolph Hitler, into power to begin with, and most people are still ignorant to the ties that were the real strings which were
pulled which got him into power due to their own ignorance in digging up evidence.

This book is quite literally a tell all of all the names of who financed Adolph Hitler's rise to power by financial means.

The man didn't get into power just by his lies, but by lies of other men too, the men with power, with money, and influence, and the access to Wall
Street.

You would be surprised to see the names within this book that financed "the funny little man, with the funny little mustache" that almost took over
the entire world.

I will not ruin the book for you by telling all the names in it, but I will tell you two men's name I know you will instantly recognize.

Henry Ford & Edsel Ford.

Yes, those "Ford's", from Ford Motor Company.

Henry Ford even got the highest award the Nazi's could give to a foreigner, in recognition of his assistance to Adolph Hitler, and his picture hung
in Hitler's office.

Just so you know, I am not a fan of the Nazi's, nor am I a racist of any kind, nor a fan of Adolph Hitler.

I'm following a papertrail to find out all the names of who helped the man get into power to begin with, because I am someone who knows there's more
to history than what they teach you in school.

It doesn't just come down to the lies a politician tells the people who put them in office, but to the power-brokers who finance the man.

Adolph Hitler was a politician, plain and simple.

He knew how to lie to the people and give them comfort through manipulative persuasion and then when the people willingly gave him the power he went
for the throat of the world.

Another good book that tells the details of who assisted Hitler that you may be able to find here on Amazon is, "IBM and the Holocaust."

Yes, I am talking about that "IBM" here too.

They helped Hitler track down the Jews and other "undesirables" (Hitler's words, not Mine) through the use of the census and the Hollerith Card
Sorting Machine.

I speak of course of the ties to Wall Street, among others, and the corporations which assisted behind the scenes, who corrupted not only the way
politics work even further from our own control, but in essence were holding Hitler's hand as he ordered the gas chambers to be used on the
Israeli's.

Was IBM, "The Solutions Company," partly responsible for the Final Solution?

That's the question raised by Edwin Black's IBM and the Holocaust, the most controversial book on the subject since Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's
Hitler's Willing Executioners.

Black, a son of Holocaust survivors, is less tendentiously simplistic than Goldhagen, but his thesis is no less provocative: he argues that IBM
founder Thomas Watson deserved the Merit Cross (Germany's second-highest honor) awarded him by Hitler, his second-biggest customer on earth.

"IBM, primarily through its German subsidiary, made Hitler's program of Jewish destruction a technologic mission the company pursued with chilling
success," writes Black.

"IBM had almost single-handedly brought modern warfare into the information age [and] virtually put the 'blitz' in the krieg."

The crucial technology was a precursor to the computer, the IBM Hollerith punch card machine, which Black glimpsed on exhibit at the U.S. Holocaust
Museum, inspiring his five-year, top-secret book project.

The Hollerith was used to tabulate and alphabetize census data.

Black says the Hollerith and its punch card data ("hole 3 signified homosexual ... hole 8 designated a Jew") was indispensable in rounding up
prisoners, keeping the trains fully packed and on time, tallying the deaths, and organizing the entire war effort.

Hitler's regime was fantastically, suicidally chaotic; could IBM have been the cause of its sole competence: mass-murdering civilians?

Better scholars than I must sift through and appraise Black's mountainous evidence, but clearly the assessment is overdue.

The moral argument turns on one question:

How much did IBM New York know about IBM Germany's work, and when?

Black documents a scary game of brinksmanship orchestrated by IBM chief Watson, who walked a fine line between enraging U.S. officials and infuriating
Hitler.

He shamefully delayed returning the Nazi medal until forced to--and when he did return it, the Nazis almost kicked IBM and its crucial machines out of
Germany.

(Hitler was prone to self-defeating decisions, as demonstrated in How Hitler Could Have Won World War II.)

Black has created a must-read work of history.

But it's also a fascinating business book examining the colliding influences of personality, morality, and cold strategic calculation.

--Tim Appelo

IBM and the Holocaust

People so easily lose sight on the atrocities but far easier forget to dig deep under the covers of guise thrown up to cover-up the insidious
assistance to those finding the power given to them, and this is why we must never, ever forget those events nor the deaths of those interred at the
Concentration Camps.

It was definately an interesting look into the planting, hunting, and detention of the German spies before, during, and after World War II.

The Double-Cross system was also informative as well, and the games that spies on all sides played in order to make certain their side won were
informative and interesting.

Some of the things that were done were quite simple and some were extremely difficult and diverse.

It was definately worth purchasing and I only wish I had heard of the book sooner than last year.

As the saying goes, "History Repeats Itself, Always", and we must not forget.

For those who do not know it history is currently repeating itself through corporations which were never brought to the light of day, like I.B.M., who
are only carrying out currently the programs that were born in Nazi Germany, but are being continued here within the borders of America today.

Included in this product line are RFID applications, end-to-end food safety systems, GPS/Satellite communications, and telecommunication, security
infrastructure and the controversial Verichip human implant, a product which has caused concern among advocates of civil liberties.

Applications for this technology include pets, wildlife and livestock identification using implantable RFID microchips, scanners and antennas.

Digital Angel has also researched and developed GPS search and rescue beacons that integrate geosynchronous communications for use by the military and
the private sector to track aircraft, ships and other high value assets.

Applications of their products include identification and monitoring of pets and fish with implantable RFID microchips, identification of livestock
with ear tags, GPS based search and rescue beacons for aircraft, ships, boats, and individuals.

Animal Identification Segment

* Daploma
* Destron Fearing - Leading US manufacture since 1945.

Pioneered microchip technology for animals in 1980s.

So, as the building may be crumbling, the memories fade slowly, and those who died in those horrid places are slowly forgotten by people who do not
value history as a lesson, but see history instead as a reminder of actions not taken by people they never knew, we as citizens of Earth must never
let these atrocities ever happen again.

I'm willing to agree that 20 million russians could have died in the war with the Nazis just as I'm willing to agree that millions of german
civilians were killed in the war and that Russian soldiers were encouraged by their superiors to rape german girls and women and that hundreds of
thousands of german civilians were fire-bombed to death by allied bombing long after Germany's defeat was clearly inevitable. And your point
is....?

So, a small number of Jews killed a large number of Jews and then lied about the number by making it larger. They convinced the governments of the
Western world to go along with their lies. They did this to create Israel where more Jews would die (not to mention others) and to make Hollywood
movies. So, these Zionist Jews kept the truth from the non-Zionist Jews and sacrificed them. The Zionist Jews then got the British government to hand
over the land for Israel. They also got the German nation to pay the reparations for crimes they did not commit or did not commit as horribly as the
Zionist Jews say they did. Thus, the Germans (along with the rest of the western world) helped the Zionists pull off their big lie.
So, while all the governments of the western world were tricked or forced into doing this, a few brave souls were able to get the truth out.
Gotcha. It's all coming together now.

Originally posted by bigyin
The evidence for deaths due to malnutrition and disease is growing, despite attempts to silence the doubters.

What I would like to know from 'those who were there' (and there seems to be loads of holocaust survivors about) is whether they agree that some
people died in ways other than being murdered.

And could they break it down for us, the number murdered is 6 million we've already been told that, but how many died from other causes?

Does it really matter if they died from malnutrition, starvation, disease, or were worked to death and keeled over from exhaustion? !!!!!! So if
they weren't gunned down and sprayed with cyanide in a shower stall their deaths are a lie? What are you saying? What are you implying?

These are people that died due to an oppressive government even though they had committed no crimes worthy of death. If there were 6 million or
"just" 6, it's too many.

It matters because if prisoners were placed in a disinfectant camp but the media claimed this was a concentration camp, then that is the lie, not the
ones who died. Remember that Stalin was just as bad as Hitler, yet the end of world war 2 was good for the Soviet Union as more countries started to
fall towards communism. So basically, the United States was okay with communism, but not fascism, and then of course they started to fight communism
after that. There is no doubt the U.S. acted immorally during World War 2 against the Japanese, yet no one makes a big deal about that holocaust.

The Jews are just as much the victims as anyone else, but just as the 9/11 victims are a victim to a plot greater than Osama Bin Laden, so too the
Jews were a victim to something worse than the Holocaust. It's hard to imagine what is worse than the Holocaust, but I believe in the near future it
will become more evident.

My point was, why don't you question the Russian numbers? Why do you only question the Jewish numbers? That's my point. Have you ever checked to see
if the purported number of Russian deaths is well documented?

When you visited the gas chambe, did you seel blue stains on the walls, ceiling and floors? I'm betting you didn't. Zyklon B leaves a noticable and
cumulative blue stain which can't be washed off. (in any case, why would you want to wash it off?). Look at pictures of the Auschwitz gas chambers
and you will NOT find any traces of blue stains.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
Thought I'd add: A good amount of deaths of Jews in concentration camps were caused by disease, not executions. When you have large amounts of
prisoners living in severe conditions, there are going to be negative results.

The concentration camps make more sense seen as a disinfectant camp.

You get your head shaved at a disinfectant camp for lice, not at a gas chamber (why shave your head?)

There were claims that the Jewish hair was used to make mattresses for German women, but yet the hair is still at the concentration camps to this day.

Zyklon B gas was used, at the delousing chamber to delouse the cloths so they would not spread disease. The walls have high Zyklon B residue, which is
why the camps had so many canisters of Zyklon B, the gas chambers themselves have no such residue.

There were many nurses that worked at the concentration camps, which would make more sense for a disinfectant camp and not a gas chamber.

I believe the concentration camps had rampant disease and were most likely cut off from essential supplies. Over 50 million people died in world war
2, clearly a banker caused war, and most of the bankers were Jewish, yet none of them died in the Holocaust. They used the Holocaust as a cover,
because they were afraid people were onto their little conspiracy, and so Truth telling became Anti-Semitic. Just my personal take on the history of
World War 2.

And your personal take is a page full of nauseating crap. I have been to Poland and have seen Auschwitz and Berkenau where the actual killings took
place.

go ahead and try and prove it wrong and not just make a baseless insult *nauseating crap* try and keep it civil.

Why don't you start by researching Mr. Van Pelt. You think just because a certain group call him an expert, that makes it true?

That's like a bunch of wolves getting together and calling this one particular wolf an expert on the "Hen House Massacre." Of course that wolf is
gonna say "Well, 99% of the evidence for how many hens were actually killed is just not there," as he winks at all the wolves who proclaimed him the
expert.

It's hard for me to understand those who choose to minimize the Nazi atrocities. If anything, the numbers are under-counted, as their ability to keep
accurate records failed in the end, but their ability to kill didn't.

People forget how obsessive-compulsive the Nazis were about efficient and accurate record-keeping. If you choose to do the research, you can find the
records of the train schedules into the death camps, and extrapolate the numbers. I personally know a Survivor: she lost most of her family in the
camps, and was on a train to Auschwitz when the Russians overran it and freed her. The Nazis were so intent upon murder that at a time when rail stock
was precious and desperately needed by the Wehrmacht, they used it to transport prisoners to the death camps, compromising their own ability to fight.
You can also find records of deliberate policy decisions about calories per prisoner, estimates of how much labor could be extracted before death,
medical experimentation: they liked to document their horrors. And just because they also murdered Gypsies, communists, gays, liberals, and a host of
other offenders against Nazism doesn't diminish the numbers of Jews killed or the fact that Jews were their primary target.

All of this has been proven many times over. Before claiming there's something wrong with the numbers, do the research first. Questioning something
doubtful is fine, but this sort of questioning is akin to questioning the existence of gravity.

And as others pointed out, the quote was taken out of context and twisted to imply something that it utterly wasn't. So either the OP can't read or
understand words very well, or has an agenda. Take your pick: stupid or deliberately misleading. Either way it makes me leery of accepting any further
posts from the OP as credible or worthy of reading.

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