I'm going to break ranks for a second and acknowledge that your comments comparing craigsub and the president were poorly worded and I can understand why craigsub is having a hard time believing you didn't mean what you typed in the way he's taking it. Because I've come to know and respect you as a person since you arrived on this forum, I sincerely believe that you didn't intend to demean craigsub. You've said as much, and the ball is fully in craigsub's court as to whether or not he chooses to believe your re-statement of intent.

craigsub,

By the tone of your responses, it is quite clear bigjohn offended you -- and you do have the right to feel so. However, in the interest of forum brotherhood, can you give him the benefit of the doubt? Look through his posting history. He really isn't the type to willfully offend other posters.

PM - I tend to always give people the benefit of the doubt. Personally, I see a different George w. Bush than does BigJohn. I also saw a different William Clinton than did the guys who would LOOK for a reason to despise HIM. One of the problems with this so called "discussion" from day one is most of the arguments made have either been how BigJohn posts about the president (a litany), or someone posting a link to some Far Left web site listing "facts" about Bush.

In 1999, The same discussion had far right guys posting links to "proof" that Ron Brown had bullet holes in the back of his head, Vince Foster was killed ... etc ... and that Bill Clinton was the same type of evil that Bush is painted as today.

I guess that fact that BOTH sides find my position that they both did or are doing a pretty good job to be "wrong" is an OK place to be.

thanks for trying to interpret here.. i have tried in my last 2 posts to apologize for offending craig, but still trying to let him know that it wasnt my intent to do so. i cant blame him any more or less than myslef for reacting, its just human nature. regardlass if i was trying to offend him or not(i wasnt), he still has the right to react.

craig- i truly wasnt trying to say you and dubya are the same guy. nor was i implying that you would have similar traits that i find unpleasant. like i said, it was bad wording on my part, and more of a translation problem.. but, once you got your defenses up, there was no convincing you otherwise. i take full responsibilty for the words that got you upset, but please try and see that they were not intended the way that you took them. i feel like there is now this dark cloud looming over this whole deal, and i would just like to clear it up and move on. i respect your views and opinions on this forum, and i would not want to feel responsible if our conversation made you not wanna come around here no more. that is not, or never was my intent.

Though reading this thread, I've avoided posting in it like the plague. And, though it causes me a great deal of pain, I do support, it's right to exist. I don't feel this is the right place for political discourse, but freedom of speech, and free expression, is worthy of support.

What is VERY difficult for me, in this current disagreement, is watching two people I "know," like, and respect, holler at each other. Based on my experience with both, It is my opinion that each is a decent, honorable, honest, worthwhile, loving family man, who wishes no ill to anyone.

Having watched BigJohn's postings for a year now, I do not believe, for a second, that his intent was to offend Craig. He has been one of the more "gentle," reasonable, considerate, friendly posters on the forum. He, now and then, can be outspoken, but I never thought his intent was to offend.

His error, if you wish to call it that, was letting his dislike for, and frustration with, President Bush bubble to the surface, something he has kept, other than one or two minor belches, very much under control. Being a Texan, and having the opportunity to observe the President closer than I, while I may, or may not, agree with him, I tend to believe his opinion, correct or not, is based on his observations, and not just some wild mindless bias.

In defense of Craig, though he is a relatively young man (OK! OK! Relative to ME, he's a young man) I think he has adopted a standard of behavior that I remember from my childhood, when it comes to the President Of The United States. Even if you don't respect the man, you respect the office, and you offer it's current occupant just that. Unfortunately, that value has gone galley west, along with humility, integrity, and consideration for others. It's only my opinion, but I get the feeling he was as offended by that as he was by any perceived insult to himself, and that, I suspect, fueled his resentment of what John said.

Funny thing is, Craig, I'm STILL getting viciously demeaning, insulting, emails attacking Bill Clinton, and, of course, Hillary. Good heavens! It's been 4 years since he's been in office. You'd think my politically conservative friends would've gotten over it by now. I think I have a number of these emails still in my "deleted email" folder. Can't be sure, because anytime I see the word "Clinton," I just delete the email without reading further. If anyone is interested, PM me your email address and I'll forward them to you, just to show you I'm not fibbing. They are NOT for forwarding.

Anyway, It is my sincere hope that, you two will find your way back to a friendly relationship, because, though different, you are both good men, and I consider you both "friends."

Jack - I appreciate yours and the other guy's efforts at making peace here. And yes, while I do value AND respect the office of the presidency, my reaction had nothing to do with that. It is the consensus that BigJohn never meant to say I was a fool, nor that I was anything at all like George W. Bush. That is fine.

In my "relatively young" 44 years on earth, and 20 years as a business owner, I have learned some pretty consistent lessons. One of those lessons: People who are responsible for the well being of a large group of other people (business owners, priests, preachers, rabbis, school superintendents, etc ...) tend to develop a GREAT deal of respect for what someone in the position of president has to go through. It is a daunting job, and one which requires listening to thousands of advisors, with the knowledge that one's actions will positively or negatively affect millions.

Clinton was called a coward for "Using Iraq as cover for his Lewinsky affair" ... Bush was called a cowboy who "could not WAIT to send 1000's of people to their death".

In the meantime, both had or still have to try to try to defeat a terrorist enemy which has NO desire to co-exist, and CANNOT be reasoned with ... ALL while keeping "politically correct".

So, When I see someone ranting about ANY sitting president, I know deep down that the person ranting would likely last about 1 minute in the job ...

I understand what you say. And, I must agree that I don't believe his intent was to call you a fool. That may be what he did, but I don't believe it was intended.

It's just that I've seen you offer an olive branch to others, and express disappointment when it is refused. Regardless of his intent, I feel John has offered you an olive branch, and I'm just disappointed that you appear to be refusing it. That is your right. I'm not disappointed in either of you. I'm just disappointed by the situation, that's all.

After what we just went through at AVS and av123, this whole thing is a cakewalk. Some of you may remember that I made a post, not too long ago, referencing a miscreant that I found offensive. We've just had another run in with this guy, and I managed to salvage some of his posts before the thread was deleted. UNBELIEVABLE! First time I ever saw f***ing, with the correct letters, in an internet post. Of course, I may have led a sheltered internet life. If I posted them here, I'd be banned. But, if you're interested PM me, and I'll PM some of the juicy parts.

Jack - No Olive branch has been offered, nor asked for. BJ said it was not his intent to offend me, and I said that was OK ... The board here came to the consensus that he was not trying to offend me, and I said that was fine.