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I only play my minstrel dps so I know what I'm talking about and no I'm not being misleading.. but everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's just a game you know. People play the way they want and at the end of the day it's all codes and pixels with a whole lot of rp.

Of course you should play how you want. That's not the point. My point is a Minstrel cannot achieve the same DPS as the best Champion and Hunter. Sadly its a fact of the game, and it's a fact someone should know if they are thinking about playing as a DPS minstrel at the end game.

I'm curious about what kind of dps you do because I've actually put a lot of work into my dps build (pve) and still can't touch the top dps classes in my kin. For that matter, I actually can't even outdps the top cappy in my kin so I don't even think we're a better option than any class at all as far as skill and gear goes.

With that being said, I agree with 00CloughRN that a well-played, geared out mini will dps better than the average glff hunter/champ/whatever. I've posted my 2nd best parse on a 75 dummy here to show you that I either have a good point or I'm doing something wrong and can improve my parse (I'm hoping for the latter). But to put it into perspective, the cappy I was referring to was hitting 2500 on the 75 dummy and one of our dev burgs hits around 4k.

I only play my minstrel dps so I know what I'm talking about and no I'm not being misleading.. but everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's just a game you know. People play the way they want and at the end of the day it's all codes and pixels with a whole lot of rp.

Care to share some parses on 85 dummies then? You are being very misleading. You are only playing dps minstrel and in your opinion it is the best is not convincing. It's not a matter of opinion, back it up with facts. Otherwise he will think killing solo mobs with red line is good dps and at the end, he will have to create his own raids to do the hard content and if he is bashing people for disliking his dps mini like some do, he might have to change his servers every season ...

Healing others is more handy than you may realize. It's probably the best way to get rewards from a fight w/o actually being involved, throw a heal on someone who may or may not need it, and while your HoT is active any thing they kill , you will get XP and other goodies as long as you are within 120 (meter/feet ?).

I trait enduring morale, discordant melody, light in the dark, unrelenting and powerful voice (those are musts haves with the exception being enduring morale if you are going "glass cannon" for dps). From there I'll probably include heralds hammer and maybe glorious anthem.

Virtue wise I gave up my typical zeal and valour in favor of virtues that gave any sort of potential dps help. I don't have my toon in front of me but it was typically fate virtues I slotted.

As far as my rotation goes, I've found that the better parses relied on crits, so the mindset I go into it with is to hit call of orome first for the light mitigation, minor/perfect/minor ballads then piercing cry, call to fate and call of 2nd age then coda. Then I'll hit my ballads again and hit coda. After that I don't have anything set in stone, but I've found that the more you go after your coda and hard hitting skills and the more they crits the better you do. I think the highest I've hit on the 75 dummie was a little over 11k

I trait enduring morale, discordant melody, light in the dark, unrelenting and powerful voice (those are musts haves with the exception being enduring morale if you are going "glass cannon" for dps). From there I'll probably include heralds hammer and maybe glorious anthem.

Virtue wise I gave up my typical zeal and valour in favor of virtues that gave any sort of potential dps help. I don't have my toon in front of me but it was typically fate virtues I slotted.

As far as my rotation goes, I've found that the better parses relied on crits, so the mindset I go into it with is to hit call of orome first for the light mitigation, minor/perfect/minor ballads then piercing cry, call to fate and call of 2nd age then coda. Then I'll hit my ballads again and hit coda. After that I don't have anything set in stone, but I've found that the more you go after your coda and hard hitting skills and the more they crits the better you do. I think the highest I've hit on the 75 dummie was a little over 11k

thanks for the info.

my minnie is nowhere near cap so i can't really test dps but i have a feeling that going 5 into the red line might not be the optimal choice for maximizing dps. i think that 4 (or 3) yellow could be better. this way one can cast call of the 2nd age every (other) coda courtesy of anthem of 3rd age.

my minnie is nowhere near cap so i can't really test dps but i have a feeling that going 5 into the red line might not be the optimal choice for maximizing dps. i think that 4 (or 3) yellow could be better. this way one can cast call of the 2nd age every (other) coda courtesy of anthem of 3rd age.

But as for your feeling, I don't agree. You're giving up 10% coda damage and 3434 call crit rating and 100% call crit multiplier. Call of the 2nd age has a long animation too, and I myself forgo anthems except for the beginning when I'm procing my crit ring. I don't think you're gonna make up all the bonuses you get through the red-line and capstone for a few more CotSA.

But as for your feeling, I don't agree. You're giving up 10% coda damage and 3434 call crit rating and 100% call crit multiplier. Call of the 2nd age has a long animation too, and I myself forgo anthems except for the beginning when I'm procing my crit ring. I don't think you're gonna make up all the bonuses you get through the red-line and capstone for a few more CotSA.

you can keep the 10% coda dmg by going 4r/3y. then one might do the following rotation:

this should take less than 10 seconds so it can be done non stop. the missing crit multiplier from the capstone
is partially mitigated by 10% call dmg from the anathem. also this rotation is far, far better for aoe situations.
anyway, i'll check it out when i reach cap.

this should take less than 10 seconds so it can be done non stop. the missing crit multiplier from the capstone
is partially mitigated by 10% call dmg from the anathem. also this rotation is far, far better for aoe situations.
anyway, i'll check it out when i reach cap.

I'm still skeptical because you're going to crit less without that 3k+ call crit rating, and although I'm not the best with math, the crit multiplier seems like it would contribute a good bit more dps. But the rotation you're describing is a lot different than mine, and you should definitely test it out and see what numbers you get. You may be right, for all I know.

The rotation I'm talking aobut is specifically for single target dps on 75 dummy to see how much dps my minstrel can actually pump out. In 3 and 6 mans I would use an entirely different approach. Some minstrels say Harmony actually puts out decent aoe dps, but I myself will never use it.

I'M old too and getting sick and tired of getting &&&& if someone wanders off on their own in group and dies. Going total warspeech solo now and having more fun playing my minstrel now. Never going back to healing anyone again. We just get to much &&&& from other players and it not worth my play time. We are the healer and you would think that players would have more respect for us but they don't. They are not worth our time.

@ OP...play any class any way you like. Have as much fun doing it as you can

As far as the rest of the thread goes with respect to mini dps......I built my Mini for healing, and have played around with dps builds. The dps is clunky and the fights are long. You have a couple of burst skills and that's it, no real sustained dps. The rest is kiting and self healing, throwing a fear when you want to pull 3 or 4 mobs, whatever. Mini's shine in dps because they can pull 6 or 8 or 10 mobs and dps them down while self healing, they are monsters in dps but not because they pump out so much, it's the healing while fighting. The notion that a well geared dps mini is going to out dps (insert random glff Hunter, Champ, or RK) is a joke. I have a level 85 Champ, RK, and Mini. I left my hunter at 65, at least I think its 65, because the class is just boring to me, it might be 75 but it's been so long since I even looked at the name on the logon screen I don't even know. For DPS a well geared RK is going to win. My long winded point there is just don't expect to get pulled into raids for dps as stated but you also stated you don't care to anyway

The problem with minnies not healing right now is because so many are leveling minnies just to dps in the moors because they're so OP. They not only don't want to heal, they literally can't and don't know how to. How about minnies who not only do not have FH but dropped the quest to get it, the items can be purchased now in the skirm camp fgs!

And why on earth is everyone talking about parses on level 75 training dummies at level 85 and trying to use that as some sort of benchmark? I gotta be missing something there.

@ OP...play any class any way you like. Have as much fun doing it as you can

As far as the rest of the thread goes with respect to mini dps......I built my Mini for healing, and have played around with dps builds. The dps is clunky and the fights are long. You have a couple of burst skills and that's it, no real sustained dps. The rest is kiting and self healing, throwing a fear when you want to pull 3 or 4 mobs, whatever. Mini's shine in dps because they can pull 6 or 8 or 10 mobs and dps them down while self healing, they are monsters in dps but not because they pump out so much, it's the healing while fighting. The notion that a well geared dps mini is going to out dps (insert random glff Hunter, Champ, or RK) is a joke. I have a level 85 Champ, RK, and Mini. I left my hunter at 65, at least I think its 65, because the class is just boring to me, it might be 75 but it's been so long since I even looked at the name on the logon screen I don't even know. For DPS a well geared RK is going to win. My long winded point there is just don't expect to get pulled into raids for dps as stated but you also stated you don't care to anyway

The problem with minnies not healing right now is because so many are leveling minnies just to dps in the moors because they're so OP. They not only don't want to heal, they literally can't and don't know how to. How about minnies who not only do not have FH but dropped the quest to get it, the items can be purchased now in the skirm camp fgs!

And why on earth is everyone talking about parses on level 75 training dummies at level 85 and trying to use that as some sort of benchmark? I gotta be missing something there.

Several things here, I think the more serious players in the Minstrel forum have been consistently saying that Mini dps is the absolute worst, and it is. With that being said, I find that quite often my glass cannon dps build actually does outdps quite a few random hunters, Rks, champs, etc. Do I think that makes minstrel dps better? No, it simply means 1, there are more than a few people out there who don't play their classes very well (in this case, random pug dps classes) and 2, if you happen to be a pretty decent player with a good build, you can take a mini and outdps a poorly played dps class.

I happen to agree that minstrels are also OP in the moors. I'm hoping they remove healing in WS because it'd be fun to see how quickly minis would disappear from pvp.

Third, I happen to be one of the people who uses the 75 dummy to parse on, and my reasons for doing so are simply: why not? I'm not trying to deceive anyone into thinking it's an 85 dummy. Using an 85 dummy is depressing admittedly, and at least for me, hitting bigger parses lets me see more clearly areas where I can improve.

If people were comparing parses (which we don't for minis) it wouldn't matter which dummy we used as long as it's the same one. You could also make the argument that hitting up the 75 dummy will bring your results slightly closer to a raid environment when you factor in group buffs. In fact, in the raid forums, one of the most respected distinguished champs used 75 dummies for his experiment.

The only important thing to know is that if you intend to join a group with people you don't know, make sure you communicate. You will be expected to heal by default. If you see a group advertising for a "Mini or RK", they are looking for a healer. Do not respond to this group and tell them once you've joined that you don't heal.

Chances are, unless you're playing with people you know, you'll only get invites during very slow times, or if you volunteer for some of the longer, less-rewarding content. Or groups that don't know better, so don't be opposed to the idea of dropping out of War Speech if the main healer goes down, and definitely pay some attention to your buffing and War Speech healing options, especially if there's no Captain or LM and you're the closest thing to an off-healer the group has. Minstrel DPS can be decent, but nowhere near that of an actual DPS class, given equal skill. You should attempt to bring more to the table than just DPS.

......With that said, I plan on playing mostly with my buddy who is a warden and we will probably go to 85 together and may never be in a max raid. Perhaps some grouping here and there, but that is probably it....

This is part of the OP. I find it interesting that so much is said to the OP on how to group and in one case if they don't want to heal they should delete and re-roll an RK.

Minnies are very flexible characters, especially right now. Don't feel bad about not wanting to heal - I personally love it but I love to dps too. Don't expect to be equivalent to a well-played hunter or other dps class, but feel comfortable that you and your warden buddy can take on most anything in-game together and do well.

Healing is more stressful than playing an interchangeable dps class in a group or raid setting, where more responsibility resides on you than others. The same is true of tanks usually. What you do is more noticeable because people frequently live and die on good instincts and quick reactions. I love it and tend to thrive on pressure, but that's me. I can see why it's not fun for everybody because when it goes wrong and I feel it's my fault, I feel lousy. However if I get blamed and I know it's NOT my fault (and we can tell if we screwed up or not) I make a note and try not to group with those folks again and they may be the first to die if I do find myself grouped with them. Every healing minnie knows - you can't heal stupid. Let 'em die.

Enjoy the game playing the minnie the way you want. They're fun, flexible, and while not perfect I like playing them better than any other class in the game.

This is part of the OP. I find it interesting that so much is said to the OP on how to group and in one case if they don't want to heal they should delete and re-roll an RK.

That's probably because nobody cares if someone doesn't want to heal if they're playing solo or duo with a specific person. It's only in the group setting, however rare that will be, that it makes any sort of difference. So that is what people will likely address.

This is part of the OP. I find it interesting that so much is said to the OP on how to group and in one case if they don't want to heal they should delete and re-roll an RK.

It is only in group content you run into this situation. In 3+ character instances, you are going to be expected to heal. The vast majority of players are not going to accept a Minstrel filling a DPS slot. They going to get a Hunter, Champion, DPS specced Rune Keeper... You are only going to get to play this way when it something like a six person instance. The group can do the instance. The DPS Minstrel is an extra character that does not have to do anything to complete the instance.

What you do on the landscape for solo quests or with a buddy is no something the player base is concerned about. Do it anyway that is fun and workable for you.

I personally done 3 person instsnces where the third is along for the ride. Me and my buddy are doing all the work. If the DPS Minstrel, under level character or whatever came along as the third cuts the time a few seconds, that is great.

Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

Even though minstrels can ditch out some decent damage, I believe the last few updates brought the war-skald minstrel down to the bottom of the single target dps pile (at cap level anyway). Guardians and wardens got pretty serious boosts to their damage output with changes to their stances and traits, and captains have been steadily getting better as well, thanks to I think, ever increasing dps ratings on weapons and stat normalization. Minstrel damage doesn't seem to scale so well from tactical damage rating. As for champions, hunters, rune-keepers, burglars, and to some extend lore-masters, they're in a league of their own, way out of reach of minstrels.

When it comes to 'AOE', minstrels fare better, since wardens, captains, and burglars are very weak in that area, and guardians ain't so hot either. That's a double edged sword though, where crowd control is required, minstrels are left with few skills for damage.

At the end of the day, war-skald minstrels still have decent firepower, especially if AOE is possible, and they retain some degree of buffing and healing, so they're not useless in a group, but they're just not well suited for the more 'serious' content (as in wherever the rate of damage really matters).

Personally, I find playing the game most enjoyable if I'm playing my characters to the full extend of their abilities, not "just heal" or "just dps". Hell, I'd love to have a taunt on my minstrel and do some tanking on top of healing, dps'ing, buffing, fearing, interrupting or removing corruptions!

change class, simple as that. some classes were made to heal/support, some to dps. Only reason people are given other options is because this game is becoming more soloable by every update.

"I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the gate of Erebor, until the darkness fell."http://gladdenhistory.wikispaces.com/

Harmony stance: you can do half and half at the same time. Do some DPS and heal at the same time. You can trait for the red line too since its just questing. But if someones hp does go down, you don't have to click the warspeech icon to drop it, you just heal.

I have to say.... I started playing this game as a Mini. Didn't understand it much so I played a warden instead because my kinship said the warden would never die. And I took the warden to end game and started raiding...

I hate being a tank. You are focused on everyone's health bars and the environment, and tanking and healing roles share the responsibility of, if someone dies, they get the blame for it (which isn't always our fault, when the hunters and champs are super OP and take from the tank's aggro).

BUT, having said that, I've recently started playing my mini again and have begun to understand her and love her more than all the other classes. And I too, prefer DPS mode, but but when I did some raids with her, I found healing to be much easier. The only drawback is that RKs don't need line-of-sight to heal. Mini does.

But now she's a level 53, with LIs and Legacies that amp her damage output. And I couldn't be happier. She kills faster than my warden, and heals faster than my RK (RK beats a Mini here with their HoTs, btw). It just takes getting used to, healing. Really, Sambrog is the learning curve. Once you've got that one down, then you branch to more complicated instances and raids.

Healing others is a vital part of the Minstrel's duties, so I suggest that you begin to accept that aspect of playing one. The time for WS is when we are farming, soloing, and rising through the levels beating our drums and thrashing on lutes. Group play in the more challenging environment of instances and raids asks for you to step up and heal your fellows. Healing is often given a bad rap, perceived by some as boring or too stressful. Other posters in this thread pointed out that PUGs are typically what makes healing too stressful: you have strangers of various skill levels and attitudes thrown together, and the result is often sadly predictable. Blame the healer (or the tank) for failure...anyone but their own selves. As a healer, you are arguably the most valuable member of your fellowship. Wear that mantle with pride and inspire your fellows to avoid standing in fires.

The title may be a bit misleading but here is my situation. I love the minstrel, have played almost everything to just past 20 now to get a feel for it and I found that a minstrel in War Speech is my most favorite. Granted, when I am NOT in that stance, I hate this class. Can't stand it. It seems to be 2 totally separate entities entirely!

With that said, I plan on playing mostly with my buddy who is a warden and we will probably go to 85 together and may never be in a max raid. Perhaps some grouping here and there, but that is probably it. I just want to find out if I am alone here?? Also, anyone that is playing mainly this way, will you provide some tips as to what stats to truly focus on? I know being "young" probably doesn't matter much, but I very much want to be the very best or at least get the most information I can to be viable at what I am doing as well as be good enough to solo content.

Any help would be appreciated!

**note: after fights, I don't mind dropping the stance to heal everyone up, it's just too frustrating to me to be the "sole healer"...I'm lazy and old, I don't need that stress

I love this post it's exactly what I've been playing with my mini, I don't mind healing and at one point really looked into trying to learn all the traits and set-ups for healing, I've built a Healing legendary book and healing Club alongside a DPS sword and DPS book, but I have found it hard to find groups as like you I mostly play with a mate who is also a warden, and have developed into quite a happy mini playing on my own with quite a nice DPS set-up. Trouble is I'm now 81 and can't ever find groups to finish fellowship quests, I've tried advertising and using instance finder but everyone seems to be 85 now. I'm also worried I haven't healed in so long I've forgotten most of it, I don't want to get stick if people are dieing during raids cos I'm a bit rusty. So my advice would be to carry on , defence is hard with a mini and soloing tough instances is hard as I've always struggled to find good armour (still do) , but once you get above you quests lvls like I always seem to be most of them are quite easy.

Be interested if anyone's got any advice getting good armour for mini's or joining groups at lvl 81, I look in glff & the auction house but as I said most group quests are 85 and I need lots of medallions to buy the top level sets of armour from the NPC's

Zulu; my Mini is my main, to get into the right habits for group healing I play the same way while soloing. I stopped using WarSpeech and use Harmony when soloing. I now only use WS when in a hurry or a really tough situation. This way I figure I'll have the habits down and don't have to remember where and what the right skills are when in a battle with others. It does mean playing solo at a slower pace.

Zulu, There should not be any duo content that you and your warden friend cannot handle while you are in WS. Especially if you maintain Anthem of War and Anthem of the Free Peoples

Use Echoes of Battle; not for yourself, but for your warden friend. It is my understanding that fist gambits tend to be cries. Taunts certainly are.

If you want to practice for grouping, take your warden friend into a few skirmishes and experiment with Harmony. If you maintain your anthems, you should be able to get by with maintenance healing. The soldiers will provide extra life bars for you to manage without the worry of player aggro if something goes wrong.