Still think this is pretty close even with utg being that big of a donker. QJs+ feels better but anyway on to the hand:
When he isolates from this position its less likely he has a wide enough range to make this a winning play. I would be far more inclined to take this line if we were on the button against his cut-off or hijack isolation. Raising the flop is always an option as well, thoughts on that?

#3

15th March 2013, 9:07 AM

hackmeplz [2,093]

Raise flop or call turn imo.

#4

15th March 2013, 3:19 PM

Deco [2,540]

Poker at: PokerStars

Game: NLHE

Fold flop. I don't know his mp open but I doubt its wide enough to float backdoor straight draws on flush draw boards.

Pre looks good to me.

#5

15th March 2013, 4:03 PM

youregoodmate [2,683]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLHE

re: Poker & £25 NLHE 6-max: Aggro guy double barrels, bluff time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deco

Fold flop. I don't know his mp open but I doubt its wide enough to float backdoor straight draws on flush draw boards.

Pre looks good to me.

Im floating with the intention of jamming his barrel, turns out I actually pick up equity.

He was really lag (had a 3 bet of 25%) so figured hes doubling light, plus its a decent card to barrel. He showed no sign of being positionally aware, plus mega fish limped so he can iso a lot wider.

Does this not fold out most hands in his range? I know it seems a bit spewy but its hard for him to call off with most of his range surely.

#6

15th March 2013, 4:10 PM

Deco [2,540]

Poker at: PokerStars

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by youregoodmate

Im floating with the intention of jamming his barrel, turns out I actually pick up equity.

We don't rep much when we jam turn after this flop as any big holding we can hold will have raised a flop this set.
Adjust to very wide double barreling by calling down lighter and floating less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youregoodmate

He was really lag (had a 3 bet of 25%) so figured hes doubling light, plus its a decent card to barrel. He showed no sign of being positionally aware, plus mega fish limped so he can iso a lot wider.

This isn't a good thing to base it off, if anything laggy players flop equity less than tighter players so can end up barreling less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youregoodmate

Does this not fold out most hands in his range? I know it seems a bit spewy but its hard for him to call off with most of his range surely.

Assuming a fairly wide 20% opening range he can have:
{99+, 66,55,78s, QJ,KQ,AQ} for a fairly significant 8% of his preflop range (will end up being less due to card negation postflop). Now considering he isn't double barreling his entire 20% this makes up alot of his range. You were lucky to flop the equity you did, your shove is by no means bad but your original plan is awful.

Another thing to take in to account is how drawy your shove looks when the flush draw is out there.

#7

15th March 2013, 10:11 PM

c9h13no3 [8,362]

So our plan is essentially to bluff a guy who hates folding?

#8

16th March 2013, 4:13 PM

youregoodmate [2,683]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deco

We don't rep much when we jam turn after this flop as any big holding we can hold will have raised a flop this set.
Adjust to very wide double barreling by calling down lighter and floating less.

This isn't a good thing to base it off, if anything laggy players flop equity less than tighter players so can end up barreling less.

Assuming a fairly wide 20% opening range he can have:
{99+, 66,55,78s, QJ,KQ,AQ} for a fairly significant 8% of his preflop range (will end up being less due to card negation postflop). Now considering he isn't double barreling his entire 20% this makes up alot of his range. You were lucky to flop the equity you did, your shove is by no means bad but your original plan is awful.

Another thing to take in to account is how drawy your shove looks when the flush draw is out there.

Okay that makes sense, so what hand range do you think he can call with?

#9

16th March 2013, 4:14 PM

youregoodmate [2,683]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

So our plan is essentially to bluff a guy who hates folding?

Yes.

#10

16th March 2013, 4:50 PM

Yoshimiii [1,058]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: Hold'em

re: Poker & £25 NLHE 6-max: Aggro guy double barrels, bluff time

Fold pre-flop. Fold flop. If he is an aggro fish why not just wait for a hand and trap.

#11

16th March 2013, 8:48 PM

Deco [2,540]

Online Poker at: PokerStars

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by youregoodmate

Okay that makes sense, so what hand range do you think he can call with?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deco

{99+, 66,55,78s, QJ,KQ,AQ}

A nine or two isn't outthe question either maybe even an ace high flush draw which would be really shite.

A nine or two isn't outthe question either maybe even an ace high flush draw which would be really shite.

This is 25nl and the guy seems loose.

I don't think this is a matter of him having turned TP or a set or the NFD that as a standard don't fold. He probably doesn't fold KTs or even something like QJs if the turn is an offsuit A.

I still think the turn shove is profitable in a vacuum, but....

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlantafalcons0

Why call preflop in the first place?

This is a very valid question.

Why you're calling the flop even more so.

Villain is loose, aggressive, and probably bad. Solution: flat a marginal hand and float a super-low equity draw when villain is likely to draws himself that won't fold, is likely to barrel them and we want to jam blank turns?

OP: you're looking at the turn shove in a vacuum, which is definitely +EV, but the problem here is that that's one of very few turns that help you, and your reasoning leading up to that point suggest some gaps in logic.

Vs aggressive-bad players we allow them to valuecut themselves and bluff too much by calling more with our marginal made hands, and getting aggressive with our strong draws because they will have so many dominated draws.

#14

17th March 2013, 7:49 PM

Deco [2,540]

Poker at: PokerStars

Game: NLHE

Honestly I think the flat preflop is fine cuz of the whales involvement. Probably the bottom of my range but its great to flat super wide if the limper is some 70vpip drooler.

Honestly I think the flat preflop is fine cuz of the whales involvement. Probably the bottom of my range but its great to flat super wide if the limper is some 70vpip drooler.

Even if the drooler has QJo you're still dominated. I don't like the call preflop. Why not wait for an actual hand? The call on the flop is just as bad as your hand didn't improve. You're basically calling off chips to set up a bluff on someone who you know isn't going to fold on later streets.

#16

19th March 2013, 6:52 AM

Deco [2,540]

Poker at: PokerStars

Game: NLHE

Ye not arguing the flop call, that's bad.
Preflop I don't wait around for powerhouse hands cause someone else may stack him in the meantime. I look for every oppurtunity possible to get in pots with hugh fish.

I'd rather something more propective so this is about as weak as I'd go maybe too weak but 56s, A2s and the likes would be snaps for me here when against the opener alone they'd be very quick folds.