Smoking GNU:How the hell does Tear Gas burn down a house. I know you Americans build rather flimsy wooden houses that are easily destroyed by a wrestler on PCP, but sheeshia

the canister is hot. It could have ignited all sorts of stuff - like a poorly-maintained gas stove. Crazy people like that often have hoarding tendencies, so there could have been oil-soaked rags for cleaning his guns, stacks of newspapers, you name it.

FrancoFile:the canister is hot. It could have ignited all sorts of stuff - like a poorly-maintained gas stove. Crazy people like that often have hoarding tendencies, so there could have been oil-soaked rags for cleaning his guns, stacks of newspapers, you name it.

nekom:clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?

Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.

No, we know what happened. The ATF people who were trying to cover their asses got nuked by the IG investigation for the incompetence of the initial raid, but tear gas didn't start the fire (if it had, it wouldn't have spread the way it did, turning into an instant bonfire). There is absolutely no doubt that Koresh and his mighty men started the fire, using accelerants and lighting it in several places. They also shot a bunch of the less fanatical followers.

If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

From the FBI report: At 12:07 p.m., the Davidians started simultaneous fires at three or more different locations within the compound. This was established by a team of independent arson experts; by video shot from an aircraft utilizing Forward Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) technology; by observations of FBI agents who saw an individual appearing to light one of the fires; by statements from survivors admitting that the Davidians set the fires; and by [material redacted as required by statute). The fires rapidly engulfed the compound in flames and smoke.

nekom:clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?

Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.

I think the reason that the siege was so controversial was that they didn't have any real evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Branch Davidians that would have justified the warrant and siege in the first place. Even if the fire was an accident, as it probably was, it still looks like the ATF had every intention of going in guns blazing from the very beginning. I suspect someone thought they would make their career on it by breaking up a nutter religious group.

mbillips:nekom: clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?

Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.

No, we know what happened. The ATF people who were trying to cover their asses got nuked by the IG investigation for the incompetence of the initial raid, but tear gas didn't start the fire (if it had, it wouldn't have spread the way it did, turning into an instant bonfire). There is absolutely no doubt that Koresh and his mighty men started the fire, using accelerants and lighting it in several places. They also shot a bunch of the less fanatical followers.

If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

From the FBI report: At 12:07 p.m., the Davidians started simultaneous fires at three or more different locations within the compound. This was established by a team of independent arson experts; by video shot from an aircraft utilizing Forward Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) technology; by observations of FBI agents who saw an individual appearing to light one of the fires; by statements from survivors admitting that the Davidians set the fires; and by [material redacted as required by statute). The fires rapidly engulfed the compound in flames and smoke.

This is true, but it was also foreseeable.

Well known right-wing mouthpiece PBS Frontline goes into detail about how the FBI negotiators were telling the tactical guys they were doing the exact wrong thing, treating religious zealots like they were bank robbers.

To The Escape Zeppelin!:I think the reason that the siege was so controversial was that they didn't have any real evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Branch Davidians that would have justified the warrant and siege in the first place. Even if the fire was an accident, as it probably was, it still looks like the ATF had every intention of going in guns blazing from the very beginning. I suspect someone thought they would make their career on it by breaking up a nutter religious group.

The same thing happened in an adjacent county to mine a couple of years back. The local PD was chasing a murder suspect and thought that he was hiding out in his mother's home. There was a "stand-off" which ended with them firing tear gas into the home which promptly set the structure ablaze and burned to the ground. Only then did they learn that he (nor anyone else) was not in the home. The mother had to sue the city before they agreed to pay her for the damage to the home.

If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

Because the BD's won the gunfight and the batfe thugs were allowed to retreat. If the BD's just wanted to kill government agents -as one of the ever changing claims went- they would have mopped up the thugs then and there, not allowed them to retreat.

The ATF was trying too make headlines to cover for the recent undercover video of their racist BBQ party called the "Good Ol' Boys Roundup"*. There was growing pressure to kill their funding and restructure the nazi branch of govt so they picked what they thought would be an easy target to make headlines with.

To The Escape Zeppelin!:I think the reason that the siege was so controversial was that they didn't have any real evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Branch Davidians that would have justified the warrant and siege in the first place. Even if the fire was an accident, as it probably was, it still looks like the ATF had every intention of going in guns blazing from the very beginning. I suspect someone thought they would make their career on it by breaking up a nutter religious group.

It was definitely heavy handed in my opinion. They wanted him on weapons charges if I remember correctly, but with numerous women and children in there they probably should have applied a lighter touch. Maybe the cult started the fire, maybe they didn't, there is so much out there on it, much of it crap, it's tough to wade through. It's definitely one for the "mistakes were made" file in any case.