But wait a tick, didn’t he play great against Pittsburgh last year?

DE Robert Ayers: That Derek Wolfe — and not Ayers — replaced Jason Hunter this week speaks volumes about where Ayers stands in the defense. He now fills the “experienced depth” role that Brooking and Leonhard were signed to handle at their positions. That’s good for a roster spot, and likely to get him some decent playing time at some point in the season, but is nevertheless a long fall considering that he was an every-down player last year.

Raise your hand if you think defensive coordinator Jack Of The River isn't enamorado with Robert Ayers.

Obviously, Del Rio hasn't been exposed to the genius of Mike Mayock. If he had been, he would have remembered Mayock saying: "Robert Ayers is the best defensive player coming out of this draft. You can get creative with Ayers. He brings your scheme versatility on defense. I think he's a special player."

some good points but let me add.. with the possible exception of Doom on teh DL we do not have any super star DL's guys as of this minute.. Maybe Warren if he can stay healthy and motivated..

IMO there are no real starters just a bunch of guys that are marginally better than the other guy and maybe even in that case it is one is better at pass rush vs. run defense..

the idea that one guy is a starter and someone else is not when most likely they will all get equal snaps during eh season sounds like head games to me on deciding who is the "starter" and who is not.

Playing at Mile High 8 games+ during the year. hurts our team because even though they get adjusted to the altitude for the BIGGIE guys they flat have to rotate.. more than JDR did with his guys in JAX..

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2012-08-18 19:47:14

I tend to believe with having REAL DT's lots of folks are going to look better, than we have in maybe even Decades..

OL's can not double the DE's or OLB'S they have to be honest and decide whom to Double because we will actually have 4 real DL guys at any given time to defend the LOS not to mention Von as a #5 for most plays..

I have said it for over a decade while on forums you win and lose at the LOS if their DL can over power our OL then lots of bad things can happen.. conversely our DL can actually cause some havoc now with having legit DT's on or near the LOS OC's can no longer dismiss our DL.. Like they have in the past and allowed OG's to pull and hang up our LB's to make big plays..

Praise God and Pass the AMMO because we finally have a DC that does not have his head up the HC's ass.. Or I should say if he does the HC has a clue on what needs to be done on D..

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2012-08-18 19:39:36

I may be a little late to the party but here goes anyway. I think we need to remember the idea of complimentary football. To me Ayers is a starter if you're planning on facing a lot of running downs, he's a probable starter if you're planning on facing a balanced offense. But if you've got Peyton Manning in good form you know that the other team is going to be trying to score points. Even on their first possession they'll be passing to make sure they can score. I believe in this situation you have to make the trade off, of being able to get to the QB because you know they just aren't going to be running as much.

Also consider the division that we are in. Oakland is moving to a zone-blocking scheme, so we are going to want penetration there because a person setting the edge is going to get double teamed out of the way. San Diego is a passing team, you just have to be able to hit Rivers. Kansas City is far more balanced in their offense but you've got to imagine that against us they'll be getting Charles in space and quick passing to Moeaki, so that they can take some shots down field. Those things to me seem to play more towards a Hunter skill set than an Ayers one.

Posted by Fan in Exile on 2012-08-18 11:45:51

If it is of any value here...Ayers notched the only sack of Kyle Orton when he QB'ed the Chiefs in their final 3 games. Marcus Thomas would have nailed him but instead nailed the RB after Orton handed it off. That is something the front 4 of the Raiders couldn't do.

However I thought that the KC OL line played much better with Orton than they did otherwise. I hope they return back to their old ways this season.....

Posted by BlackKnigh on 2012-08-18 02:53:38

many forget that JDR likes biggie DL players.. and frankly who knows if he will even be around next year..

Ayers is a Josh guy, many hate him because of that , to hell with stats and watching him with an open mind..

There has been yet another change in direction for this kid, lose weight because we want you to play OLB while we experimented with that for two years., UNDER two different DC's IIRC.. then put some weight on because we want you to play DE and occasionally slide into DT (because we lacked any real DT's last year) now this year everyone coming to camp was told to add even more weight because we just may have a REAL DL this year..

and now again two more DC the past two years..

does it surprise anyone If someone being brought in to fill a specific role might have a leg up on someone who has been in two different roles/positions the past 4 years?

I for one want to see how many more changes are made before I call him a bust..

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2012-08-18 02:01:25

Think this is closer to the truth than anything..

Add to the fact that Ayers first two years were at OLB, just might need some coaching now that he is at his natural spot..

IIRC he graded our real well last year at setting the edge and run stopping.. and then having a couple of sacks in the post season as well as one in week 17.. He Might be seeing the light and the game slowing down for him..

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2012-08-18 01:47:19

Royal - "Why would any team want a one-dimensional player as a starter along the defensive line?"

It's a great Q and I haven't the faintest idea - like you, I prefer more versatile players, especially on the lines. However, finding guys with good position versatility that includes effective production at those multiple positions hasn't been a priority for the Broncos until recently. Danged if I know why - lack of emphasis on the D, for a long time, was at least part of it. Changing systems multiple times hasn't helped.

I didn't think that you were one of the folks disparaging Wolfe - that was in part just noting how easily fans attack players and then change their opinions. I did think it odd to say that Ayers couldn't beat out a rookie, which is true so far, without at least noting that the rookie in question was chosen specifically for his skill as an offtackle who has also played every position along the DL. Ayers was chosen for a different system by a different front office - I don't see that as a failing on his part, and nearly every player needs time to pick up a new position. Since he missed TC in Year 1, was injured for most of his second season and changed positions in the third, his situation hasn't helped him. And, he's settled now - I expect him to be productive this year. If he's not, I'll say so. I'm not personally attached to him - I just don't agree with a lot of the comments he's drawn. The film told a different story - so did his full stat record.

"...wouldn't they also want him to to consistently put pressure on the QB?"

You bet. Ayers tends to collapse the pocket, Wolfe tends to knife through it to the QB. It's a slightly different skillset, and Wolfe's approach is faster, which matters a lot in the modern game. Ayers helps greatly to feed the edge guys. With Wolfe, Miller and Doom on the DL along with Ayers on some downs, you might see a different kind of production from RA - we'll see. They had him out with Wolfe and usually Unrein against Chi, which I thought was interesting (Miller, Wolfe, Ayers, Warren and Doom is a grouping that no team is anxious to play against). RA did notch 5 sacks last season (including playoffs) and that's not a bad number. I'd like to see it higher, but let's face it - the DL has been a naked singularity for a long time. Given the guys he'll be out there with, he'll have the best opportunity of his pro career.

Just a point of interest -- both Tyson Jackson and Ayers are rated as a '7' for their 2011 performance in Pro Football Reference's APPROXIMATE VALUE rating system. Hunter dropped to a '3' last year after hitting '5' in 2010. Interestingly, Bunkley scored a '7' in 2011, as did Mays. Bannan's first season here -- 2010 -- was a a '5' whereas his last season with St. Louis was a '6.'

My only point here is that opinions vary (de gustibus) and lead to arguments that can't be resolved, so it's nice to have something other than a subjective evaluation. I don't want to sound dismissive of others' opinions but there are unconscious emotional biases underlying attitudes which often render them somewhat less than useful. The AV ratings seem fairly accurate and are objective. I'd like to see more people use the system because it provides common ground for resolving these debates.

Posted by colinski2 on 2012-08-18 00:20:21

I thought Ayers was pretty darn impressive against Pittsburgh in the playoffs and showed that he has the ability to get after the QB (2 sacks, 3 QB hits). He can be a force when he's got Dumervil and Miller (now maybe Wolfe as well?) to draw attention away from him.

At this point I don't think it makes any difference where he was drafted and I'm hopeful that he sticks in Denver for a long time. We never know why coaches do the things they do, but I don't see any way that Ayers doesn't see the field and contribute often this season.

I think we're all going to be pleasantly surprised with the overall ferocity of this season's pass rush. It's going to be fun to watch, especially on the occasions when PMFM and the offense give them a lead and turn them loose. This is a deep d-line group (IMO) and we've already seen the way JDR uses his linebackers to bring additional heat. It's going to be a blast.

Posted by Xtreme212000 on 2012-08-17 21:44:20

Doc, I didn't intend to put words in your mouth, but we've had this discussion before and I felt fairly certain about where you stood. Thanks for this very thorough rejoinder. You make some excellent points about Ayers' value. I do question the statement that "they don't want a guy to set the edge and push the pocket." Surely they wanted him to set the edge and play stoutly against the run, but wouldn't they also want him to to consistently put pressure on the QB? Why would any team want a one-dimensional player as a starter along the defensive line?

Regarding Hunter, you're right to call me out on using "journeyman" in a pejorative sense, though I think you wrongly assume that I don't believe it's possible that Hunter consistently improved and was simply a better player than Ayers this year. I've always thought that Hunter was an excellent rotational / depth player. If he stepped up his overall game this year and beat out Ayers, then more power to him.

Is Bunkley a journeyman? We'll see. He underwhelmed in Philly and had one strong year in Denver as a two-down player. If he can do the same for the Saints over the life of his contract, the answer will be no. If he plays more like the guy he was for the Eagles, then I'd say the answer is yes.

Finally, I'm pretty sure I haven't written a word (here or anywhere else) judging the Wolfe selection. Was I surprised when it happened? No doubt. But I do my best to withhold judgement until I see a player in the orange and blue and what he can do on the field. I've been nothing but impressed by what I've seen and read on Wolfe. I fully expect, as you do, that he'll make rookie mistakes on one play and get a sack on the next.

Posted by Royalwithcheese on 2012-08-17 21:31:42

Bunkley was a top shelf run defender last season, which is well above journeyman status or production. ayers has never reached such heights as a run defender. Capable better describes Ayers as a run defender.

Posted by CruJonesisrad on 2012-08-17 21:10:20

I'd be careful in reading too much into TC developments.It seems indicated that JDR especially likes DL who are versatile enough to fill two roles. Most importantly they are big, strong and can penetrate - the last especially true for DEs (who can move to DT on passing situations) (or vice versa - ie. DTs who can move outside to DE when appropriate).The two best examples of this on the current roster are Wolfe and Warren. I think Jackson is projected in this role (gaining strenght/mass, and experience) (perhaps also Blatnick, but as a long shot).The role of specifically DTs and DEs is more limited.DT must be massive, run savvy, and pocket containing and, if possible, collapsing. Bannan, Vickerkson, Unrein and Siliga fit that role. But, depending upon the development of the those in the above role, only two, or at most three, will claim roster spots.DE's must be able to rush the passer, and, additionally, as appropriate and capable to set the edge in running plays.Doom is the comsumate pass rusher. It may be heresy to mention it, but he may, in the JDR scheme of things, end up as a situation third down or late in game player unless he greatly improves his edge setting skills (which have improved in the last year).Both Hunter and Ayers, IMO, are better at edge setting. Hunter apparently has become better at penetrating than Ayers, though now that is a mute point.How Beal, Siliga, Garland and Obiozoe fit into this equation still needs to be determined.Obiozoe can, IMO, only find a role as a DE pass rusher.Siliga can, IMO, only find a role as a NT who controls the run.Beal and Garland could develope into the DT/DE hybrids that JDR is looking for. Initially, Beal has stepped forward. But Garland already has more mass, strength and, IMO, upside. In any event, IMO, only nine will make the active roster. Wolfe, Bannan, Warren, Vickerson, Doom, Ayers, and Jackson seem to be locks. That leaves two from Beal, Siliga, Garland, Blatnick, and Obiozoe.Take your pick.It will be interesting to see.

Posted by ivanthenotsobad on 2012-08-17 21:09:06

Ayers is a poor mans Tyson Jackson. Probably not a second contract player, but should have at least an 8 year career due to his utility value and role playing ability. Even if the second half of that career in as a journeyman. I don't ever see him finding a long term home in the NFL. He simply isnt good enough to lock down a long term starting job. Is he the Kyle Orton of DEs?

I do maintain that last year's film showed that Ayers did well in what they wanted him to do. If you disagree that's fine - just show it to me on film. Since I didn't make any of the 'excuses' that are being claimed, I won't address them. Ayers has been graded better against the run than Hunter (and that's what they wanted Ayers to do last year) and Hunter has been graded as better at creating pressure (which is what they want this year). After reviewing last year's film, the team decided to change what they wanted from his slot and Ayers isn't as well suited for the goals of that change. All well and good.

They don't want a guy to set the edge and push the pocket - something Elvis Dumervil publicly thanked Ayers for, since according to Doom (who might just know a bit) it made his sack total increase - so much as they want to create greater pressure from every slot on the DL. Their approach this year is to create the kind of pressure that stops the running game by attacking into the backfield to both increase TFL and harasses the QB in the same way. If you want to claim that this 'shows' that Ayers is a poor player have at it, but from my seat you're missing the point. Brodrick Bunkley, who most fans understandably drooled over, isn't well suited for this defense either. He never did get much of any pressure - he was good for two downs against the run, period. Does that make him a journeyman too? It's worth a thought.

I like the new approach very well, since I tend to prefer a defense that dictates to the offense rather than the other way around. In it, I can easily see why Hunter - who created 5 sacks, 2 fumble recoveries and 3 passes defensed in limited playing time (527 snaps over 9 games) for Detroit in '09 - would fit what they wanted very well. In addition to being unimpressed with the hostility regarding Ayers for the simple reason that the film didn't match the claims, I've long been a supporter of Hunter's and have pointed out his value several times. Odd that this part is also forgotten.

Ironically, Hunter's another player who's gotten far more fan hostility than support since he came on board and I haven't seen that fan angst supported by his play on film, either. You might take a moment and recall that several writers and many fans suggested that 'journeyman' Hunter would struggle to even make the team this year. Maybe he's just what I've been saying he is - that he's simply a better player than he's gotten credit for. The 'journeyman' remark is typical of the rhetoric that's been given him from the fan base. But hey, if he beats out the starter, it's not that he is doing a very good job but an indictment of the starter, right?

It's always interested me that when a player steps up in their career, there's frequently a lot of comments that the person he beat out wasn't any good, stats and film be damned. Ayers has always drawn those, but the fact remains that there were quite a few equally disparaging remarks made about Hunter prior to this camp. Suddenly, a lot of folks have short memories about that part. Others - and some of them the same folks -use rhetorical devices to insinuate that Hunter wasn't that good either. He was doing well at showing the shallowness of that perspective when he became injured.

I also see why that 'rookie' Wolfe - who was drafted with Denver's first pick to function well in the new twist on defense - is playing so well. He's another player who drew little but complaints and dire predictions from the same fan base at first, but who is well suited for his multiple role function. One preseason game does not a year make, but he's gotten off to an excellent start in camp as well as in Chicago. I look forward to seeing what he can do as the season approaches and against rival teams in the regular season. And, I expect him to make the same rookie mistakes that all young players do. They won't convince me that he's a disaster either, but you'll probably hear that when they occur.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2012-08-17 20:41:37

I thought Ayers played well last year. He definitely passed my eye test.

I guess only time will tell how well he plays this season

Posted by BRASO on 2012-08-17 20:08:37

At the risk of re-opening old wounds, how about we consider the possibility that Ayers just isn't very good? I know Doc and Ted will defend Ayers to their last breath, but consider:

-- When he struggled in the 3-4, his advocates said it was because he was miscast as an OLB.-- When he struggled as a DE in the 4-3, it was because he was learning how to play with his hand in the ground in the NFL.-- When he provided very little in terms of a pass rush, he was still solid at "setting the edge" and could kick inside as a DT on passing downs (never mind the fact that he very rarely provided any pressure from that position).-- Now he's been beaten out by a journeyman DE (Hunter) and a rookie DT (Wolfe).

As Andrew Mason says, Ayers is "experienced depth" and nothing more at this point. He's never been all that good anyway. It's just that now, the Broncos have enough talent on the defensive line to push him where he belongs: second-string.

Posted by Royalwithcheese on 2012-08-17 18:42:33

I agree with the other comments so I'll avoid being redundant here. My gut feeling is that -- in part -- Ayers isn't what JDR wants from his DLs. They 'have' apply serious pressure or else they're not what JDR is seeking. The other aspect of this situation is Wolfe, who's clearly far better (albeit still very early) than what most expected. Moreover, it's not just about talent. Wolfe's placement at DE is hardly surprising -- IMO. He can avoid the double teams/traffic inside that have been his weakness.

Ayers isn't useless under the JDR system but pass rush is of paramount importance now and that relegates Ayers to a more situational role. I won't downplay Ayer's demotion but I still have to emphasize that platoon concepts are outmoded. Assignments are the more important factor and his role as a nickel tackle in containment makes him valuable, still. What we could be talking about is how 'good' Wolfe is doing but comparative logic turns it into a knock on Ayers.

Posted by colinski2 on 2012-08-17 18:15:01

Competition is good. Maybe JDR thinks Ayers needs a little match under his butt. Or maybe he just thinks Wolfe needs the reps more than Ayers does. Nothing "speaks volumes" about their futures at this point. Forget it Jake, it's just training camp.

Posted by Boz on 2012-08-17 16:37:28

I wonder if it is not so much a change in Ayers' play as it is what the DC is looking for. Hunter and Ayers were both in play last season, but Allen chose Ayers as the starter. Now with Del Rio in charge the tables have turned.

Also, it's good to see that Julius Thomas is making some plays. I'm pulling for him in the preseason games.

Posted by DavidInLA on 2012-08-17 16:08:52

I don't know, I mean the truth could lie somewhere in between. Clearly Mayock was loopy for his hyperbole there, which was ludicrous, but I think it's too early to tell where Ayers will *ultimately* fit in this season. Obviously he's taken some steps back here, JDR needs to see more out of him. But that shouldn't erase that he did have some good games last year and had improved greatly. Sometimes you have to start over a bit in a new scheme and with a new coach and he may not be playing well in camp. But I wouldn't count him out either.