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Again, this is incredibly patronising towards the Libyans themselves. So because their revolution is supported militarily by the west they can't be the ones determining their own future? It just has to be cynical western politicians manipulating them?

By way of agreeing, can I point out that us Americans arguably could have lost our revolutionary war without France's intervention, which was wholly self-serving on their part? They wanted to give the English a black eye during their interminable wars, and thus common cause helped America get on its feet.

Likewise, we do this to get a more stable region and access to oil not sold by Saudis, and lo and behold, the Libyans are self-determinate. Win/win!

Originally Posted by Ian

Given that he's the only one (by many) deemend crazy enough to actually push the button if it came to it, do North Korea actually have the weapons to attack long-range? I've no idea if that's the sort of thing that's been whipped up by the media to make them/him seem scarier and more dangerous than is actually the case.

They don't need to hit America to pose a threat. They need to hit South Korea.

But yes, the truth is the same now as it was in 2003: We only attack dictators who don't actually pose a threat.

Last edited by Nalano; 24-10-2011 at 05:41 PM.

NalanoH. Wildmoon
Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
Attorney at Lawl
"His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

Well some of the Sunnis in Lebanon aren't very religious, but the Shiites who support Hezbollah are much more conservative, and far less secular.

That's true but at the same time Hezbollah has been more progressive that we think, ie promising safety to all Lebanese regardless of religion, one of its spokespersons is a woman etc. Anyway what I tried to say was that not everyone is so religious or conservative.

Originally Posted by Joseph-Sulphur

Those men were arrested as they were trying to actually make contact with the rebels. It's ridiculous to say that the revolution was 'run' by Western spooks when they needed to send a secret force to actually make contact with the (already established) interim rebel government.

Well there was coverage in US and EU papers about US, Qataris and NATO officials providing intel, bombing targets and overall strategy. I mean they didn't go to have tea did they? And as far as I remember there were MI5 or 6 people with them, no? And at the end of the day they re not a diplomatic team, they re special forces.

Originally Posted by Joseph-Sulphur

I'd like to see a source which supports that claim about France, and I'd be especially surprised if this was promised before France actually started bombing Gaddafi's troops.

I ll try and find it.

Originally Posted by Joseph-Sulphur

Again, this is incredibly patronising towards the Libyans themselves. So because their revolution is supported militarily by the west they can't be the ones determining their own future? It just has to be cynical western politicians manipulating them?

I hope they determine their future, after all they should be the ones to do it, not a bunch of ex-regime cronies or NATO... I just don't see it yet as the only voice we hear is that of the Council...

I never said we have to marginalise dictators... I am not sure what should be done to be honest. But I think that western (and I am not taking the West as a monolithic entity) should clean up its own house before criticizing anyone else... In the end people get the governments they deserve. Its not paradise in Europe or the US, so until we/they fix their problems, I think its hypocritical to pretend we involve ourselves in situations like that.

Originally Posted by Joseph-Sulphur

I also think its pretty pathetic that you're suggesting that the only way the new Libyan government won't be a radical Islam Taliban-style theocracy is if the West succeeds in 'playing' them... Again, how patronizing is that? Give them a fucking chance.

I never said that, you misunderstood me or I didn't express myself well. I think that the only way for them to build something good, is to get rid of the Council, NATO and the Qataris... And I really hope they will do that. The Egyptians seem like they re not gonna rest till every official of the old regime has been kicked out, so I hope it will be the same for Libya.

I'm not pissed off, I'm just an asshole. This is how I discuss things.

That's true but at the same time Hezbollah has been more progressive that we think, ie promising safety to all Lebanese regardless of religion, one of its spokespersons is a woman etc. Anyway what I tried to say was that not everyone is so religious or conservative.

Eeeh. Its quite dubious to suggest that Hezbollah isn't that conservative, they are just very good at PR. Anyway I agree, not all arabs are incredibly conservative. I'm making the point that a large amount are.

Well there was coverage in US and EU papers about US, Qataris and NATO officials providing intel, bombing targets and overall strategy. I mean they didn't go to have tea did they? And as far as I remember there were MI5 or 6 people with them, no? And at the end of the day they re not a diplomatic team, they re special forces.

That's the whole point! Surely if the west had been pulling the strings from the beginning we wouldn't have needed to send a special forces team and have MI6 agents on the ground just to make contact with the rebels. It was clear that the government had no idea what was going on and was trying to actually make first contact with the NTC.

I hope they determine their future, after all they should be the ones to do it, not a bunch of ex-regime cronies or NATO... I just don't see it yet as the only voice we hear is that of the Council...

NTC already dissolved. See my response below about purging all ancien regime elements. Not a good plan.

I never said we have to marginalise dictators... I am not sure what should be done to be honest. But I think that western (and I am not taking the West as a monolithic entity) should clean up its own house before criticizing anyone else...

Well that's a different matter entirely. I don't, however, think that we should shy away from the fact that our political system is far better than the one in Syria, for example. Don't let the past decade of neocon buffoonish chest-thumping make you unwilling to acknowledge just how much more progressive we are.

In the end people get the governments they deserve.

I think that the young Libyans who risked being shot and bombed by the Libyan air force, who risked their lives all through this war deserve a better government. And whatever you think about western powers having deeper interests in the war, the only way they were ever going to get the government they deserved was if we intervened militarily. There's no two ways about it.

Its not paradise in Europe or the US, so until we/they fix their problems, I think its hypocritical to pretend we involve ourselves in situations like that.

Sorry but that's a crock of shit. All countries have domestic problems, that doesn't mean we should abstain from any kind of forceful foreign policy. Sure, we have economic problems and a political system which is arguably beholden to moneyed special interests, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have helped out a democratic revolution against a nutjob dictator when conditions were perfect for intervention.

I never said that, you misunderstood me or I didn't express myself well. I think that the only way for them to build something good, is to get rid of the Council, NATO and the Qataris... And I really hope they will do that.

The NTC has already dissolved itself, so yeah. What I don't understand in the slightest is why you think that Libya should completely turn its back on the only countries that actually helped it when it needed help most!?! When Gaddafi's army was walking all over the rebels, Grad rockets were falling on heavily populated civilian areas, France, Qatar and the UK were the only countries who were pushing to do something about it. Without them Gaddafi would be in power and the corpses of anyone involved in the rebellion would be jammed into mass graves somewhere deep in the desert. And you're saying that Libya should 'get rid' of these countries because of some crazy conspiracy theory you've dreamed up about them manipulating Libya in some way? Come off it.

The Egyptians seem like they re not gonna rest till every official of the old regime has been kicked out, so I hope it will be the same for Libya.

No no no no no No. That is exactly what we did in Iraq, we purged any Ba'ath party member from the government and create a power vacuum that lead to the current sectarian gagglefuck. We need to take Germany right after WW2 as the model, we can't purge every low level bureaucrat who may have been involved with Gaddafi, because everyone was fucking involved with Gaddafi. It was a totalitarian state. Just because some technocrat was appointed minister for infrastructure by Gaddafi doesn't mean that we have to completely exclude him from the new government! It's a ridiculous, childish idea that would only create more hardship in the long-run.

Come on man, this is weak. Pretty silly in fact. One article references some random letter, (I can't even find the article in Liberation) which purportedly shows a secret deal struck between the NTC and France, 2 weeks after the intervention began. The later article confirms that this wasn't the case. Even if the letter is real, why should the new Libyan government honour it? And why should we assume that whoever wrote it is actually in a position to ensure that such a deal is honoured? It's stupid.

Eh this is getting too long and we re gonna have to agree to disagree I guess...

The point I was trying to make is that it's not in my opinion a 'democratic revolution against a nutjob dictator' since it is run by spooks and foreign military. I do not believe that those running it have no ulterior motive other than 'democracy' etc. And yea I do think Libya should turn its back on those who 'helped' it regain 'democracy' otherwise they re gonna find their country run by people who don't have their best interest at heart. And I m sure they re not gonna let go, now that they established a foothold in Libya, withdraw and let them build their new state. Its not a conspiracy it's just what I think based on the fact that the US, UK, France and other powers never intervened somewhere if they had nothing to gain from it. That's it. Also you are forgetting that the three aforementioned powers have a lot of influence over the UN, so they were bending what they helped draft...

To summarize, I don't think anything good comes out of it when you mix secret services, the military and oil/money/geopolitical gain. And I have no respect for the first two, they should not even be on foreign lands.

Having said that I also think they should purge any ex-regime cronies, to what extend it's debatable of course. But you cannot deny the fact that some people benefited from the regime more than others.

For example, when the (US-backed) dictatorship fell in Greece, there was no purge in the security forces (one of many sectors). So people would then bump into their torturers on the street. These people (and those in the military) continued to serve in their places (doing more or less what they did before) in a 'democratic' state... It does not seem to me a good way to move on.

Now, if you ask my opinion (which you didn't, but that never mattered before), this is kinda like a spoiled brat being defended after throwing a rock at the neighbor, all the while taunting said neighbor.

America's trying to support independent regimes who fought to break out from under the yoke of... American puppet leaders, a job that is doubly hard when both political parties bend over backwards to unilaterally support a major threat to regional stability, human rights and common sense.

So diplomacy is like walking on eggshells, except those eggshells are the casings of unexploded bombs. Hillary's been doing a fantastic job and America's been quietly supporting the Arab Spring where-ever it can, so when some Israeli idiot went way off-message to make a deliberately provocative attack on an entire religion, using much the same language as a certain former president did to justify an illegal war, right after we had to stop Israel from starting yet another war... tempers flared.

He should be forced to apologize on national television for causing the deaths of five American diplomatic servicemen and starting shit that didn't need to be started. If we can find out where he's hiding.

NalanoH. Wildmoon
Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
Attorney at Lawl
"His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

They should go after the film producing crew. What's the point of harming a diplomat?

Who knows what these guys have been told, or know. Apparently this movie was made months ago, attracting little to no attention so it seems likely that this 'sudden outburst' wasn't in fact very sudden at all. Perhaps a group of people was informed that 'the Americans' made a movie that is apparently rather derogatory of - oh yes, the world' second most popular religion; combine that with 'the Americans' not being the most popular kid on the block forvariousreasons and you quickly have a pretty volatile situation.

Last edited by Tritagonist; 12-09-2012 at 01:52 PM.

"He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~ Luke 4:18

I dont believe that any film production is the real cause. Smell like a warning to the western powers to stay out of the civil war in Syria.

CNN is reporting on Syria on its frontpage everyday.

Israel is the real cause. Supporting a dictator for 50 years and still having embassies in Cairo after he's overthrown is the real cause. They don't need another reason to kill Americans. They have so many already!

That we can even have diplomatic relations at all is a miracle of our current administration's state department and diplomatic corp. Which is why we prefer that assholes don't fuck it up.

Last edited by Nalano; 12-09-2012 at 02:36 PM.

NalanoH. Wildmoon
Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
Attorney at Lawl
"His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

What has she done? I know she has been visiting Pakistan, India and China, what has she accomplished in the middle east?

He should be forced to apologize on national television for causing the deaths of five American diplomatic servicemen and starting shit that didn't need to be started. If we can find out where he's hiding.

The attack didn't happen simply because the film was made in the US, the reaction would have been the same to any oter country. Remember the protests against the Danish cartoonist?

He should be forced to apologize on national television for causing the deaths of five American diplomatic servicemen and starting shit that didn't need to be started. If we can find out where he's hiding.

What?
Why?

Why should he apologize for doing something which is legal and perfectly in his right? Death of those people is tragedy but you can't blame that "asshat" for what those primitives do.

Why should he apologize for doing something which is legal and perfectly in his right? Death of those people is tragedy but you can't blame that "asshat" for what those primitives do.

Last I checked we do not tolerate hate speech or speech that incites violence. Quite frankly, people like Mr. Bacile are no different than the fundamentalists they inflame, and people like him are clearly skirting our rights to free speech to foment a religious war.

If this was not his intention, let him publicly state such. But it is very plainly the exact effect he wanted.

Last edited by Nalano; 12-09-2012 at 07:10 PM.

NalanoH. Wildmoon
Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
Attorney at Lawl
"His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

Do not expect Mr. Bacile or Pastor Jones to temper their actions or express regret for them. Their views are apocalyptic and they welcome the rise of anarchy and violence as a harbinger of the conflagration that will destroy their religious enemies for all eternity. They are not very different from the fundamentalists whom they inflame.

and?

they didn't kill anyone did they? so no. no apologies to people who support murder.