Mass Effect 3

It's not the origin of the Reapers that I was referring to - I have no problem accepting that the Catalyst is an AI that betrayed its creators and turned them into Reapers. Why I think a rogue Leviathan would complicate the Starchild's "logic" some more is because of what it represents - that a Reaper uncontrolled by the Catalyst will have free will to choose to oppose the other Reapers, rather than "harvest" organic and synthetic life. A Reaper choosing such a course of action would undermine the Catalyst's zealous insistence that organics and synthetics will always be in conflict.

On the other hand, I suppose it could also be said to at least somewhat reinforce the Catalyst's reasoning - the Catalyst betrayed its creators, and now one of its creations has betrayed it. But I think the Catalyst has been much too simplistic anyway, since in the current cycle unindoctrinated geth never sought to wipe out the quarians or any other organic life anyway and only wanted to co-exist peacefully with organics - so we already have one synthetic race choosing a different path than the one the Catalyst insists is "inevitable."

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There is a four-line sequence in the files that folks are theorizing belong to the final conversation with the starchild:

"The Leviathans created you, didn't they?"

"Tell me what you know about the Leviathans."

"But you turned on the Leviathans. You harvested them."

"Who is OLD TONGUE NAME OF HARBINGER?"

The last one is weird, since it's part caps and the grammar is odd. If all this is true, I do hope it means we can call the Catalyst on his BS even if we can't actually do anything about it.

Looking at this slideshow, it seems there's a lot I didn't see. Judging by the filename, I think the rachni one only appears if you don't cure the genophage and (presumably) do save the Rachni.

Some of those I can't figure out what you'd need to do to get them; how is it possible for Jack to survive but get all of her students killed?

Just reading through some of the Leviathan data it looks like the DLC will have you tracking the thing down to an asteroid. Presumably a geothermically active ice moon since there's mention of riding a submersible. This goes a long way to explain the reapers' form if the first race was a naturally aquatic species like the Hanar.

If Leviathan is the original reaper then it'd make sense for it to return to it's natural habitat. One wonders if the reapers share more than just their original shape, but their actual size too. I wonder what kind of planetary ecosystem could possibly have evolved and indeed support a 2km long, sentient cephalopoid? I think it'd have to be a relatively low gravity planet in relation to it's surface area or an ocean composed of something other than water to give greater buoyancy. Naturally the oceans would have to be *very* deep. I'm by no means an expert in astrophysics, but is is possible for a planet to form somewhere between the size of a super-earth and a gas giant and be encased in a very large volume of liquid? A super ice moon?

I loaded my legend file and so far I haven't seen any thing new when do these scenes kick in? I am at the FOB at the moment before you make the assault on the beam.

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According to some claims there were a few lines inserted into the Cronos mission, but I didn't notice anything new. To answer your question though, you'll start noticing the obviously new material after the destroyer is taken down.

Just reading through some of the Leviathan data it looks like the DLC will have you tracking the thing down to an asteroid. Presumably a geothermically active ice moon since there's mention of riding a submersible. This goes a long way to explain the reapers' form if the first race was a naturally aquatic species like the Hanar.

If Leviathan is the original reaper then it'd make sense for it to return to it's natural habitat. One wonders if the reapers share more than just their original shape, but their actual size too. I wonder what kind of planetary ecosystem could possibly have evolved and indeed support a 2km long, sentient cephalopoid? I think it'd have to be a relatively low gravity planet in relation to it's surface area or an ocean composed of something other than water to give greater buoyancy. Naturally the oceans would have to be *very* deep. I'm by no means an expert in astrophysics, but is is possible for a planet to form somewhere between the size of a super-earth and a gas giant and be encased in a very large volume of liquid? A super ice moon?

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I don't think they were always 2km long . . . the human reaper at the end of ME2 was gigantic in relation to normal humans, so it wouldn't necessarily be logical to assume the sovereign type reapers were always that large

I don't think the largest reapers necessarily represent any past species, but are more of a distillation of species the reapers have 'preserved'

* CAPITAL SHIPS are Sovereign-class Reapers two kilometers in length. They typically target the dreadnoughts, defense installations, and industrial cities of organic civilizations. Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species of organics during each cycle of extinction to create these massive ships. Some capital ships are capable of launching small drones equivalent to fighters.

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The thing you kill at the end of ME2 would just have been the central core of the Reaper, like the one you find Legion next to in ME2--which was also shaped like a lifeform. The 2km long hull is a shell that gets built up around it.

I think EDI even mentions after the Tuchanka mission that the destroyers appear to be of a uniform design, the Sovereign-class Reapers are all uniquely constructed (though, of course, still very similar.) Actually, that's something else that bothered me. At the end of ME2 you see the full Reaper fleet with some very different looking designs, but in ME3, all we see is the ones that look exactly like Sovereign and the destroyers (plus a cameo from Harbinger.) I realise there's a limit to how many assets they can use in-game, but I'm sure they still could have been used in the pre-rendered scenes.

As for your last point: -

The Catalyst explicitly says that it based the design of the reapers on the form of the species that created it and, incidentally, the first to be mulched and reaperfied against their will.

Also...

...while going through that pastebin, I noticed what looks like data for new weapon mods. The Assault Rifle Omni-blade, SMG High-Velocity Barrel and Assault Rifle Thermal Scope caught my eye. That's assuming this *is* new stuff of course. I suppose it could just be cut content.

These lines of dialogue also caught my eye: -
"What is it with you and rescuing scientists from dig sites that have been overrun by hostile forces?"
"If you decide to help her take down the Shadow Broker, I'm going to be jealous. And somewhat concerned."
"Not that I'm complaining, mind you."
"I'm glad you made it back... and I'd appreciate it if you avoided talking to Leviathan any further."
"I don't want any tentacled creature inside your mind... except me."

^I'm assuming that's all Liara. I like how they've given her a sense of humour in ME3.

Oh, and : -

"That mining facility... everyone there under Leviathan's control. It reminded me of Feros."

Perhaps that old theory of a link between the Thorian and the origin of the Reapers still has some life left in it after all!

It's not the origin of the Reapers that I was referring to - I have no problem accepting that the Catalyst is an AI that betrayed its creators and turned them into Reapers. Why I think a rogue Leviathan would complicate the Starchild's "logic" some more is because of what it represents - that a Reaper uncontrolled by the Catalyst will have free will to choose to oppose the other Reapers, rather than "harvest" organic and synthetic life. A Reaper choosing such a course of action would undermine the Catalyst's zealous insistence that organics and synthetics will always be in conflict.

On the other hand, I suppose it could also be said to at least somewhat reinforce the Catalyst's reasoning - the Catalyst betrayed its creators, and now one of its creations has betrayed it. But I think the Catalyst has been much too simplistic anyway, since in the current cycle unindoctrinated geth never sought to wipe out the quarians or any other organic life anyway and only wanted to co-exist peacefully with organics - so we already have one synthetic race choosing a different path than the one the Catalyst insists is "inevitable."

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Think about this, though. If the Catalyst is controlling the Reapers, then the synthetics he's actually referring to ARE the Reapers. It doesn't mean much if the Reapers aren't a unified hivemind with a singular goal; the Krogan aren't either, but their uncontrolled ravaging of the galaxy was a certain enough possibility that the Salarians slapped them with the Genophage, not once, but twice.

It probably isn't so much that every individual reaper is dedicated to devouring organic life. It's just that MOST of them are, and the Catalyst is the only thing keeping their appetite for destruction partially in check. In which case, The Catalyst isn't as concerned with preserving organic life so much as keeping the Reapers from exhausting their food supply.

I doubt that the Leviathan of this file and the Leviathin of Dis are the same Reaper. The Leviathan of Dis was probably Sovereign, or simply another Reaper whose "real" name we don't know

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Reapers don't have real names, they are merely content to use the names given to them by others (even the name "Reapers" is merely what the Protheans called them). Harbinger, too, is only so named because he continually refers to himself and/or the collectors as "The Harbinger of your ascendence."

I decided to just watch all the endings on YouTube rather than go through the hassle of downloading and playing it. I'm glad I saved myself the trouble. I think BioWare did as good a job as possible in polishing a turd... but without backtracking on what was a horrible conclusion, it's clear there's only so much to be done.

I was glad to see an explanation of why Normandy retreated, and it's good to know they crew doesn't just starve on that planet.

It's not the origin of the Reapers that I was referring to - I have no problem accepting that the Catalyst is an AI that betrayed its creators and turned them into Reapers. Why I think a rogue Leviathan would complicate the Starchild's "logic" some more is because of what it represents - that a Reaper uncontrolled by the Catalyst will have free will to choose to oppose the other Reapers, rather than "harvest" organic and synthetic life. A Reaper choosing such a course of action would undermine the Catalyst's zealous insistence that organics and synthetics will always be in conflict.

On the other hand, I suppose it could also be said to at least somewhat reinforce the Catalyst's reasoning - the Catalyst betrayed its creators, and now one of its creations has betrayed it. But I think the Catalyst has been much too simplistic anyway, since in the current cycle unindoctrinated geth never sought to wipe out the quarians or any other organic life anyway and only wanted to co-exist peacefully with organics - so we already have one synthetic race choosing a different path than the one the Catalyst insists is "inevitable."

Click to expand...

Think about this, though. If the Catalyst is controlling the Reapers, then the synthetics he's actually referring to ARE the Reapers. It doesn't mean much if the Reapers aren't a unified hivemind with a singular goal; the Krogan aren't either, but their uncontrolled ravaging of the galaxy was a certain enough possibility that the Salarians slapped them with the Genophage, not once, but twice.

It probably isn't so much that every individual reaper is dedicated to devouring organic life. It's just that MOST of them are, and the Catalyst is the only thing keeping their appetite for destruction partially in check. In which case, The Catalyst isn't as concerned with preserving organic life so much as keeping the Reapers from exhausting their food supply.

I doubt that the Leviathan of this file and the Leviathin of Dis are the same Reaper. The Leviathan of Dis was probably Sovereign, or simply another Reaper whose "real" name we don't know

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Reapers don't have real names, they are merely content to use the names given to them by others (even the name "Reapers" is merely what the Protheans called them). Harbinger, too, is only so named because he continually refers to himself and/or the collectors as "The Harbinger of your ascendence."

It's too much of a coincidence, IMO.

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Actually, they do have names. In ME2 Legion says Sovereign (the name made up by Saren) referred to itself by name as Nazara. One assumes that is the name of the race that was used in it's creation. Harbinger is an odd one since, being an english word you'd think it was another made up label, but the reaper you kill on Rannoch says to Shepard "Harbinger speaks of you." Perhaps it's real name directly translates as "Harbinger"?

Indeed, in the data-mined dialogue it looks like the race that created the catalyst are referred to as Leviathans (plural) while the reaper they were turned into is called Leviathan (singular.) Another direct translation perhaps? They are after all referred to as "ancient aliens from the deep."

Actually, they do have names. In ME2 Legion says Sovereign (the name made up by Saren) referred to itself by name as Nazara. One assumes that is the name of the race that was used in it's creation.

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That would still be a name given to it by others; either by the Nazara themselves, or by Legion when he realized that Sovereign was created from the Nazara. Or, more likely, whoever Sovereign had been talking to before he spoke to Legion.

Harbinger is an odd one since, being an english word you'd think it was another made up label, but the reaper you kill on Rannoch says to Shepard "Harbinger speaks of you."

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That's kind of what I mean. "Harbinger" was mainly a title he used while controlling the Collectors and threatening everyone. It's more of a descriptor than a name. When you consider that the Reapers' primary mode of communication probably isn't linguistic in the first place, the only reason they would even NEED names is when speaking to organics and some times the Geth, in which case they are content to use whatever random labels organics have slapped on them.

If Harbinger had first been encountered by the Volus, for example, the reaper on Rannoch probably would have said "That Horrible Thing That Killed Everyone speaks of you."

Perhaps it's real name directly translates as "Harbinger"?

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More likely, it isn't a proper noun so much as what Harbinger literally is. It's like if you had a crewmember on your ship whose name just happened to be "Stupendous Badass."

OTOH, it's worth considering that "Harbinger" might actually refer to the Reapers themselves; a translation, for example of a word used by one of the races that predated the Protheans, referring to the Reapers as "The Harbingers."

It probably isn't so much that every individual reaper is dedicated to devouring organic life. It's just that MOST of them are, and the Catalyst is the only thing keeping their appetite for destruction partially in check.

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Except that the Reapers are dedicated to harvesting organic and synthetic life, because that is the motivation and purpose given to them by their creator, the Catalyst. The EC data files suggest that a Reaper unshackled from the Catalyst's control (in this case, the one referred to as Leviathan) has free will... and Leviathan chooses to rebel against the purpose for which it was created, and moreover chooses to ally with organics to destroy the other Reapers. Obviously we won't know its motivation until this DLC is released (assuming it is indeed intended to be future DLC), though presumably the collective species that makes up Leviathan is still disgusted by the "solution" that its creation the Catalyst decided upon.

We have no way of knowing what other unshackled Reapers would do, because we have no other instances of there being an uncontrolled Reaper. But since we know each Reaper was once a species that was harvested by other Reapers to be created into a new Reaper (i.e., "preserving the species"), there's also no reason for us to automatically assume that most Reapers, if uncontrolled by the Catalyst and able to act upon free will once again, would choose to perpetuate an organics versus synthetics cycle. This possibility is enough for me to call "bullshit" on the Catalyst's blind belief that organics and synthetics will always want to destroy one another.

Reapers don't have real names, they are merely content to use the names given to them by others (even the name "Reapers" is merely what the Protheans called them).

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I used quotations around the word "real" for a reason in that previous post - I was using it as shorthand.

Speaking of bullshit, did anyone else roll their eyes at the Catalyst's expanded description of Synthesis? It says that it had tried similar solutions in the past, but theorized each attempt had failed because the outcome had been forced upon the species in question. It says that Shepard can make the choice - except that Shepard is then acting in the Catalyst's stead, and still forcing that outcome on the species of this cycle. There's no difference.

Just finished it and at first I was worried since it takes ages for any extended scenes to happen but by the end WOW, if only the game avoided all that hassle by launching with this content in the game. I choose the control option and I loved the expanded dialogue with the star child and especially the expanded epilogue bit...

The Synthesis voice-over didn't bother me, though during the Control one I found myself thinking that it was merely a matter of time before Shepard would forget who and what he once was and simply start imposing his own will on the galaxy via the Reapers, thus becoming a new Catalyst.

After watching the Control and Synthesis endings... am I the only one that thought the voice overs during those montages were a tad creepy?

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I just redid the ending for my second, mostly renegade, Shep and she picked control... it was terrifying. This is a woman who killed the Rachni Queen in cold blood. This is the woman that murdered Samara, then murdered Samara's daughter. This is the woman who insulted Tali repeatedly in ME1, betrayed her in ME2, knowingly sent her to her death during the suicide mission, and chose to wipe out the entire Quarian race because of that grudge. She is a monster.

And I just gave her control over a fleet of unstoppable warships.

What's more, after killing Wrex in ME1, causing Eve to die by destroying Maelon's research, and curing the genophage, the finale epilogue slides showed that Wreav was raising a Krogan army, presumably to exact revenge on the rest of the galaxy.

While the slideshow is a little cheap, it does the job of making the various endings feel different. My first Shep's epilogue was bittersweet, forcing me to dwell on some of the more questionable decisions I made, but with the knowledge that civilisation had survived and the races were now united. My second Shep's epilogue... completely different.

Speaking of bullshit, did anyone else roll their eyes at the Catalyst's expanded description of Synthesis? It says that it had tried similar solutions in the past, but theorized each attempt had failed because the outcome had been forced upon the species in question. It says that Shepard can make the choice - except that Shepard is then acting in the Catalyst's stead, and still forcing that outcome on the species of this cycle. There's no difference.

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Yeah, they just tried to handwave away the moral implications of forcing synthesis on every living being in the galaxy with that one. "It can't work if the people aren't ready, but it will work so the people must be ready."

I'm struggling to get to the end. I've got up to Earth but I'm finding that it seems more of a chore than anything else at the moment. I also expected more for 1.9 GB than what I've seen so far, which isn't helping

Yeah, they just tried to handwave away the moral implications of forcing synthesis on every living being in the galaxy with that one. "It can't work if the people aren't ready, but it will work so the people must be ready."

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It wouldn't solve a damn thing anyway. People may accept the new fusion, but that doesn't mean it will change what their priorities will be on Monday. Aria will still slaughter anyone and everyone to get back Omega (though, I'm betting we'll get to see that pre-epilogue as DLC). So what if she glows green and has a new appreciation for the Geth? Synthesis just means that organic and synthetic can develop new ways of killing each other at the same rate. It doesn't change anything, aside from obsoleting night lights.

^Well, it might mean that people will no longer discriminate so much between synthetic and organic when killing, but yeah, I can't see it working in the long run.

Mind you, there was something mentioned of being "linked" to each other and the civilizations in reaper form, so perhaps the change does affect how people think and feel by creating sympathetic mental connections. Somewhere between indoctrination (though without the imposition of control) and the way the Geth shared data.

Don't get me wrong, I still favour high EMS Destroy as the "best" ending and the one most likely to become canon, but I think there was more to synthesis than giving everyone green glowing eyes.

We have no way of knowing what other unshackled Reapers would do, because we have no other instances of there being an uncontrolled Reaper. But since we know each Reaper was once a species that was harvested by other Reapers to be created into a new Reaper (i.e., "preserving the species"), there's also no reason for us to automatically assume that most Reapers, if uncontrolled by the Catalyst and able to act upon free will once again, would choose to perpetuate an organics versus synthetics cycle. This possibility is enough for me to call "bullshit" on the Catalyst's blind belief that organics and synthetics will always want to destroy one another.

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I'm not saying the Catalyst is right. I'm saying he BELIEVES he is right with as much certainty as, say, the Salarian Dalartrass believed that the resurgent Krogen would butcher the galaxy, or earlier, that Wrex believed the Rachni would rise up again and menace the entire galaxy. It's an educated assumption based on past experiences, but depending on the circumstances that assumption may have varying degrees of accuracy.

At the end of the day, though, what the Catalyst believes need not have anything to do with what actually is. Even if he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about -- which he doesn't -- he's still holding all the cards, and he's really just one last hoop that needs to be jumped through in order to resolve the conflict.

Speaking of bullshit, did anyone else roll their eyes at the Catalyst's expanded description of Synthesis? It says that it had tried similar solutions in the past, but theorized each attempt had failed because the outcome had been forced upon the species in question. It says that Shepard can make the choice - except that Shepard is then acting in the Catalyst's stead, and still forcing that outcome on the species of this cycle. There's no difference.

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Again, the simpler explanation is that the Catalyst has NO IDEA why Synthesis failed before and has only a vague understanding of how this entire process is going to work. The only thing for sure is that the Catalyst would prefer not to have the reapers destroyed, but for whatever reason he can't really control them (he can only sort of redirect their focus in a specific direction) nor can he trigger synthesis on his own. The most obvious reason for this is that the Catalyst is actually a projection of one of the Reapers -- probably Harbinger -- and can't use the Crucible to affect the Reapers for the same reason a human being can't safely incubate the plague: it would begin to affect him LONG before it could affect anyone else and then the circuit would be broken.

After watching the Control and Synthesis endings... am I the only one that thought the voice overs during those montages were a tad creepy?

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I just redid the ending for my second, mostly renegade, Shep and she picked control... it was terrifying. This is a woman who killed the Rachni Queen in cold blood. This is the woman that murdered Samara, then murdered Samara's daughter. This is the woman who insulted Tali repeatedly in ME1, betrayed her in ME2, knowingly sent her to her death during the suicide mission, and chose to wipe out the entire Quarian race because of that grudge. She is a monster.

And I just gave her control over a fleet of unstoppable warships.

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Sort of dovetails with that conversation with Garrus where they're talking about how sometimes the galaxy just needs some sort of dictator who can get shit done and not have to worry about the consequences. If you're playing Shepard that far into the renegade category, you're basically playing Grand Theft Galaxy, and taking control of the Reapers is your moment of Ultimate Gangsta.

Which is the cool thing about Mass Effect, isn't it? Shepard can be a paragon of virtue or a complete asshole who just happens to get things done. The implications for the final ending should reflect this in a philosophical sense: in your case, the new paradigm is that everyone -- particularly the Krogan -- will have to mind their manners from now on or less Ultimate Badass and Reaper War Godess Shepard will come and spank them into the dark ages.

Just finished EC (with reject, then destroy on reload), then watched all the endings on youtube. I still don't *like* the endings (anything with space magic...), but at least now they make sense within the boundaries of the story. Then again why couldn't we get these endings back in March? And I'm not talking about the plus few minutes of video, but the fact that
a. the mass relays don't explode
b. joker doesn't run off
c. normandy doesn't crash...