Dean's Role In The Mytharc (spoilers For Sure

This is a continuation of the discussion from the spoiler thread. Personally, I thought it was a great discussion.....and while I guess it might not belong in the spoiler thread....I thought it should continue....especially after this......

Amyj wrote:As a Samgirl What I really wanted to see was Micheal tell Dean "You are my true vessel, Dean. Just say the word and I'll let- Adam go."

And then Dean being true of Team Free Will could apologize to Adam then tell Micheal he could put that offer where the sun dont shine."

Micheal then would tell Dean to get lost as he's no longer part of the story becasue honestly...to the ANGELS pov he Dean WASNT a part of THEIR story anymore; - Lucifer and MIcheals -but Dean was still a great big part of the Winchesters story...one half to be exact.

Still wish it had been the amulet instead of the stupid Impala that helped Sam break through. Would have loved a flashback of Dean finding the amulet in Sam's bag and putting it on. ... then later and just as SAmifer was going to deliver the final bkow tge sun catches on the amulet. Its just the amulet already had a backstory and the writers wouldn't need half the episode to introduce the Impalas relevance to the story.

This is fantastic. I agree....while Dean didn't have to become Michael there should have been some evidence that it mattered that Dean gave the angels the middle finger. Some sign that yeah......it mattered that they didn't get the "right" vessel. I would have loved to have seen Adam suffering because Michael was wearing him out, too....like Lucifer was doing to Nick.

And, wow....I never thought about the amulet as the object that Sam needed What a great idea. I still have hope that we'll see it again as evidence of the guy's bond.

I agree....while Dean didn't have to become Michael there should have been some evidence that it mattered that Dean gave the angels the middle finger. Some sign that yeah......it mattered that they didn't get the "right" vessel.

It would have been great that instead of profession Michael's surefire win in Adam's convenient body that without his true vessel yet fighting Lucifer in his true vessel, Michael might very well lose. Or that even if he won still most of the planet would be destroyed.

Of course, that lame scene in that field didn't convince that even an ant would die, let alone "half the planet". Pfft. And that is not a budget question as I have seen shows with even smaller budgets pull "end of the world looming" more convincingly than that.

Also, yes, it would have been great had Michael asked Dean one last time instead of going "eh, who are you again? go away."

It made the entire storyline of the angels bringing Dean back from hell and trying to convince him in Season 5 ludicrous in hindsight. If it never really mattered, they could have used Adam at any point. So why didn't they? Plot hole of epic degrees.

The amulet being the object to bring Sam back instead of the soldier on the other hand wouldn't have done much for me. It still gives Dean not even that stupid yellow crayong moment - that goes to an inanimate object - but even if, the yellow crayon moment itself was never good enough for me. On Buffy, I felt that it highlighted Xander's uselessness that he inexplicably succeeded with a cheesy speech because there was no other better way he could have succeeded.

I would have vastly prefered had Dean been the only one to work the stupid rings or anything. In that vein, I would have vastly prefered not to hear from Death himself how Sam is "the only one who can do it" and would Dean please kindly step aside.

I don't buy into this "he has to sacrifice Sam" notion since that is not in Dean's power to do. Sam could have said "yes" regardless and Dean could have lain on the ground inactively while Sam did it all himself regardless as well. So, don't try to sell me glass for diamonds, show.

For the mytharc established for Dean in Season 4 to mean something, I would have required something active and unique to Dean - and I don't mean "he is the closest little moon orbiting the Sam-sun". I mean something tied to Dean himself.

Maybe Zach could have accidentally tranferred some of his dying grace to Dean, giving Dean some boost to fight Lucifer or better say, the moment of surprise to fight Lucifer. Then, while Dean managed to weaken him for a critical second on the outside, Sam used this to gain control for that second on the inside. The cage already open so it's not the ludicrous "overtaking Lucifer for 5 minutes because hey, it's so easy".

Or preferably, yes, I would have gone for BOTH vesseling up and BOTH overcoming their archangels and jump. Why would Dean not make it? Is there any reason to have less faith in him to overcome an archangel than in Sam? It's silly for either, really.

Yes it would have been nice to see Dean choosing to stay human have some impact on the whole Michael's plan to take down Lucifer but as it stands his storyline was pretty much this: say no - get tortured, say yes - get beaten, oh whatever you are replacable: you little maggot and you are no longer part of this story.

I always thought it was silly that we just have an all of a sudden out of left field "Hey maybe Sam can overcome Lucifer" (Really show? Based on what evidence? Because Sam has a history of showing how well he can do stuff like that? Oh wait not so much. Because of the hint dropped that anyone else in the history of the universe had ever been able to do any such thing? Oh wait not so much...sloppy..*deep breath* moving on) So we had this out of nowhere solution and they just ignored two seasons worth of groundwork for another (several actually) plausible less risky solutions that actually, and stay with me here, involved both characters. That is what I don't get and that is why I felt in my personal opinion that the finale dropped the ball. And all it would have taken was maybe one or two more lines. Like you said Dreamboat if Michael had just asked Dean one more time or made it clear that the outcome was not so certain because they did not have him on board I could have swallowed the whole thing a little better.

They had options it just did not make sense that the plan they went with was the only or even in the top ten of the best ones.

But going forward there are several threads that they started for Dean in the mytharc that I would love to see explored further: killing the WOB, Looking at Zach's grace. I don't need him to have powers or a super shiny destiny but I would like it if some PTB thought he was special.

I am rambling and probably not so much with the sense making, I will go over here and be quiet now......

Mel @ Sep 13 2010, 04:19 PM wrote: I always thought it was silly that we just have an all of a sudden out of left field "Hey maybe Sam can overcome Lucifer" (Really show? Based on what evidence? Because Sam has a history of showing how well he can do stuff like that? Oh wait not so much. Because of the hint dropped that anyone else in the history of the universe had ever been able to do any such thing? Oh wait not so much...sloppy..*deep breath* moving on) So we had this out of nowhere solution and they just ignored two seasons worth of groundwork for another (several actually) plausible less risky solutions that actually, and stay with me here, involved both characters. That is what I don't get and that is why I felt in my personal opinion that the finale dropped the ball. And all it would have taken was maybe one or two more lines. Like you said Dreamboat if Michael had just asked Dean one more time or made it clear that the outcome was not so certain because they did not have him on board I could have swallowed the whole thing a little better.

They had options it just did not make sense that the plan they went with was the only or even in the top ten of the best ones.

But going forward there are several threads that they started for Dean in the mytharc that I would love to see explored further: killing the WOB, Looking at Zach's grace. I don't need him to have powers or a super shiny destiny but I would like it if some PTB thought he was special.

I am rambling and probably not so much with the sense making, I will go over here and be quiet now......

Yes to all of this.

I also never really understood why the writers introduced the idea of Sam over-powering Lucifer while he was drunk and pissed at Dean over Crowley. That just seemed to give the idea even less legitimacy so it seems even more inexplicable that TFW would jump on-board without much thought especially once the demon blood idea was reintroduced. I thought it was clear that the demon blood just heightened Sam's rage and pride issues which is what Lucifer was playing on throughout the season.

I'm very interested in any repercussions for Dean that stem from his role as Heaven's chosen one. Not that that was necessarily a good thing for him but there could be plenty of fall out from his being able to kill an angel, etc.

I so agree.....what happened to "Killing the WOB"? I mean, one minute Dean is the man of God...or whatever and then it doesn't even seem to figure in anymore.

When I was watching the finale, and Sam lost control to Lucifer, I really thought that Dean would panic and offer to become Michael, but then Cas would find some spell or something to get him out. I figured this would be fine, since Dean wasn't needed to jump into the box...and then we'd get the best of both worlds....Dean as Michael and then Dean doing the human thing. That's really what I thought we would see. Even though Dean was able to remain human, he was still the vessel that the Angels really wanted. But he was the one to control his destiny.....not that they had a plan B that made him unimportant to the story. That wouldn't have been a big change to the story....but enough of a difference that everyone would have been happy.

Gaussian @ Sep 13 2010, 05:14 PM wrote: I so agree.....what happened to "Killing the WOB"? I mean, one minute Dean is the man of God...or whatever and then it doesn't even seem to figure in anymore.

When I was watching the finale, and Sam lost control to Lucifer, I really thought that Dean would panic and offer to become Michael, but then Cas would find some spell or something to get him out. I figured this would be fine, since Dean wasn't needed to jump into the box...and then we'd get the best of both worlds....Dean as Michael and then Dean doing the human thing. That's really what I thought we would see. And, it would have been that even though Dean was able to remain human he was still the vessel that the Angels really wanted. But he was the one to control his destiny.....not that they had a plan B that made him unimportant to the story. That wouldn't have been a big change to the story....but enough of a difference that I would everyone would have been happy.

Yeah that's what I expected to see happen too. Or at the very least, Dean could have crawled over and shoved both Sammifer and Michael into the holewhile they were struggling with each other.

I'm actually surprised that Kripke could resist having Jensen play Michael in some way or another since it's such an icon role but I guess his main focus was always on Sam/Lucifer with Michael and Dean being an after-thought all along.

I know Jensen said he wasn't disappointed that he never got to play Michael but I would still have loved to see his take on it, especially since Matt Cohen's Michael was pretty kickass. However, given how whiny and ineffectual Michael turned out to be in SS, it's probably just as well that Jensen got to avoid that drivel. I doubt even he could of have made that stuff look compelling.

Jensen would have made it work. I think it was Kripke's original plan, but then when they got picked up for season 6 he had to revise his idea. I for one, was so disappointed that we didn't see Jensen get to play Michael. I was waiting to see it.....especially after seeing Matt's take on the part. I felt that Dean had to end up being human.....and able to overcome Michael, but I thought we'd get those scenes with Sam as Lucifer and Dean as Michael. I'm not a writer so I don't know how he would have gotten there....but Kripke has surprised me before....and I just felt he would get there. Well.....I was wrong.

I still like the ep.....but there were some glaring holes that he just wasn't able to connect together. That just didn't gel with what we told all season long.

I always thought it was silly that we just have an all of a sudden out of left field "Hey maybe Sam can overcome Lucifer"

It wasn't really out of left field though, fans had been speculating on that exact thing for a while leading up to the finish line. Also on the fact that they wouldn't kill Lucifer but rather put him back in the cage. The rings were introduced way back in ep 2, it was perhaps predictable but definitely not out of left field imo.

I came over to continue the discussion from the Dean spoiler thread, but it looks like that's not being done.

I'm not seeing any spoilers/spoiler spec here so I'm not sure this topic belongs here. Episodes - Season Finale thread maybe would be more appropriate and less misleading - or just moving the conversation to the topic of Dean's rle in the mytharc - spoilers (which means season 6)

Gaussian - it's not the first time the show has had to shift gears. Originally, Sam was slated to prevent Dean going to hell but the writers strike cut that story short. I think the introduction of the angels was unplanned in the long term as well and they only went with it because they thought it was going to be the end of the show.

SicFi Girl @ Sep 13 2010, 06:49 PM wrote: I came over to continue the discussion from the Dean spoiler thread,&nbsp; but it looks like that's not being done.&nbsp;

I'm not seeing any spoilers/spoiler spec here so I'm not sure this topic belongs here.&nbsp; Episodes - Season Finale thread maybe would be more appropriate and less misleading - or just moving the conversation to the topic of Dean's rle in the mytharc - spoilers (which means season 6)

A lot of the talk about Dean's role in the mytharc often comes out of or leads to spec about season 6 which is why it always ends up high-jacking the spoiler thread.

But I believe this thread was originally started in the Dean forum so perhaps it fits better over there.

I always thought it was silly that we just have an all of a sudden out of left field "Hey maybe Sam can overcome Lucifer"

It wasn't really out of left field though, fans had been speculating on that exact thing for a while leading up to the finish line. Also on the fact that they wouldn't kill Lucifer but rather put him back in the cage. The rings were introduced way back in ep 2, it was perhaps predictable but definitely not out of left field imo.

Even if it was speculated, though, IMO, the build up to it was poor. There's no evidence whatsoever that a person can retake control after being possessed by an angel.

Even with a lower level angel like Cas, Jimmy described being possessed as being "chained to a comet" - basically, hang on and hope you make it. And Raph's vessel ended up a vegetable, and supposedly it would have been worse for Dean if he'd said yes to Michael. IMO, the way the build up was going, it looked like saying yes = drooling vegetable (i.e. no consciousness left whatsoever).

I so agree.....what happened to "Killing the WOB"? I mean, one minute Dean is the man of God...or whatever and then it doesn't even seem to figure in anymore.

And this is exactly the problem I had with S5. All of Dean's storylines added up to ZERO. And this is what I hope S6 rectifies. IMO, Dean's got so many open storylines that need to be addressed and paid-off and many of them could be used to tie Dean directly to this season's mytharc. Dean being the Servant of Heaven is my personal favourite route - there's so much mystery surrounding what it means to be a "true Servant of Heaven" and what that means about the person who is given this title, and I think that it would be some great material to exploit for Dean's story.

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SicFi Girl @ Sep 13 2010, 05:49 PM wrote: I came over to continue the discussion from the Dean spoiler thread, but it looks like that's not being done.

I'm not seeing any spoilers/spoiler spec here so I'm not sure this topic belongs here. Episodes - Season Finale thread maybe would be more appropriate and less misleading - or just moving the conversation to the topic of Dean's rle in the mytharc - spoilers (which means season 6)

Gaussian - it's not the first time the show has had to shift gears. Originally, Sam was slated to prevent Dean going to hell but the writers strike cut that story short. I think the introduction of the angels was unplanned in the long term as well and they only went with it because they thought it was going to be the end of the show.

I only put the spoiler tag, because the discussion started in the spoiler thread and I assumed that spoilers might be brought up....but yeah the subject really isn't about the spoilers. I don't understand why it needed to be moved from the Dean forum.

I understand about Kripke having to shift gears.....I just think he could have tweaked the story in such a way that he didn't have to lose the end point that was alluded to all season. I guess maybe Kripke thought that after the 100th ep we wouldn't be expecting Dean to Michael up......but I just thought that Michael taking over Adam was another chance for them to interact while Michael tried to again convince Dean that he needed to say yes.

Dean being the Servant of Heaven is my personal favourite route - there's so much mystery surrounding what it means to be a "true Servant of Heaven" and what that means about the person who is given this title, and I think that it would be some great material to exploit for Dean's story.

I don't see any mystery surrounding this true servant of heaven thing. The episode makes it clear that a servant of heaven is someone who is doing the Lords work, which is why the priest is a suitable choice in Cas' eyes. He can't do it in the end because he hesitates to kill his daughter. During the episode Dean was slowly working his way toward the decision to say yes to Michael which is why, when he is able to kill the whore, Sam asks him if he is going to do something "Michael" stupid, because Sam is aware that saying yes to Michael (or planning to say yes) would make Dean a servant of Heaven. Sam's moment of realization is also supposed to be ours I think. YMMV of course but I have always felt that people were reading to much into the servant of heaven thing when its all explained in the episode.

For me the only loose end from Dean's sl was the fact that he was able to look into Zach's eyes when he killed him. That could mean something or it might be nothing. Maybe they will follow it up but its kind of like Sam's black eyes in LR - we got a tantalizing mention in SFTD and then nada, as if it never happened.