there is a chance you leave the game on a stretcher without use of limbs so i cant be mad at the guy for wanting as much as possible. it doesnt matter how good WE think he is. bottom line: he's in camp now

Bingo, Legend and Killwill have this one pegged. Fans will be upset that Avril is "hurting the team" but in the end the players view this as a business first and quiet frankly they should. It's a risk that Avril is taking but in his mind it's a risk he's willing to take, you can't hold that against him.

As far as "market value" goes, I doubt that many teams would have given either of those respective players the type of deal that they signed. It's been said and proven that untalented teams HAVE to over-pay to acquire and keep talent around. We're not there anymore. There's no "negative" to coming here any longer, at least as an organization. Just because a couple of teams over-paid these guys, it doesn't mean that every team should over pay similarly situated talent.

When you sell your house, is the market value the highest offer you receive or an average of the other lower offers?

It's the highest. That's the one you take. That's the market value.

wjb21ndtown wrote:

And, I don't believe the "fair market" is what you or he thinks it is regarding his play - he was essentially on the "fair market" and couldn't find a deal.

He wasn't on the free market - he had restrictions. The Lions could match, there was potential for required draft pick compensation. Both of those restrictions make him less attractive for teams to try and do a deal with him.

Back to the house analogy, if you were selling your house and said to potential buyers: "someone else has an option over the house, so once we have agreed our deal we will have to go to that guy and see if they want to buy at that price and you may have to pay that guy money too" do you think you get the same number of offers or do you think a lot of people think "I can't be bothered spending the time and money progressing a potential deal for this house when I may get trumped anyway"?

We will find out in less than a year's time whether Cliff made the right decision or not. Either way, he has no obligation whatsoever (IMO) to take a decision that he believes is less than the best he can get just because it would benefit the Lions. I would love for him to have that attitude, but I can't criticise him at all for not having it.

August 8th, 2012, 6:48 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: Avril's Contract: Within 2 weeks?

UK Lion wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

As far as "market value" goes, I doubt that many teams would have given either of those respective players the type of deal that they signed. It's been said and proven that untalented teams HAVE to over-pay to acquire and keep talent around. We're not there anymore. There's no "negative" to coming here any longer, at least as an organization. Just because a couple of teams over-paid these guys, it doesn't mean that every team should over pay similarly situated talent.

When you sell your house, is the market value the highest offer you receive or an average of the other lower offers?

It's the highest. That's the one you take. That's the market value.

wjb21ndtown wrote:

And, I don't believe the "fair market" is what you or he thinks it is regarding his play - he was essentially on the "fair market" and couldn't find a deal.

He wasn't on the free market - he had restrictions. The Lions could match, there was potential for required draft pick compensation. Both of those restrictions make him less attractive for teams to try and do a deal with him.

Back to the house analogy, if you were selling your house and said to potential buyers: "someone else has an option over the house, so once we have agreed our deal we will have to go to that guy and see if they want to buy at that price and you may have to pay that guy money too" do you think you get the same number of offers or do you think a lot of people think "I can't be bothered spending the time and money progressing a potential deal for this house when I may get trumped anyway"?

We will find out in less than a year's time whether Cliff made the right decision or not. Either way, he has no obligation whatsoever (IMO) to take a decision that he believes is less than the best he can get just because it would benefit the Lions. I would love for him to have that attitude, but I can't criticise him at all for not having it.

Your analogy is flawed... When you buy a house you're not tied to the Buyer for the length of the deal and both sides walk away clean at closing, this isn't the case here. In this sense the player relies upon the team for a great number of things - to put teammates around him, to implement a scheme that works for him, and to use him in a way that is beneficial for his career. Going to a crappy team can be a career ender, or at the very least a career "slower" in what amounts to be a very short time span.

The "best offers" often come from clubs that aren't as good, with lower level talent, that aren't going anywhere. While it may be slightly more money, it doesn't mean it's a good career decision. Players often take less to play for good teams, where success is more likely, and it frequently pays off for them. Also, all of these guys are multi, multi millionaires - losing week after week would effect anyone that takes pride in their work. There's a certain amount of piece of mind that comes with winning. For a 10% discount, getting all of that from the Lions seems cheap to me, not to mention the stability and lack of need to move your family.

wjb - completely agree with everything you say there. The analogy was purely around salary expectations, not the other things that (as you rightly say) are also (or at least, should be also) important for a player.

If Cliff has another good year and then moves to a crappy team for a couple of million a year more than the Lions are offering but then his career nosedives, he'll have made a pretty silly decision IMO.

But we will find out whether a team (or teams) will offer more than the Lions, how much more they will offer and the standard of the teams making those offers next season. Avril didn't get the chance to find that out properly this offseason, so in that respect I maintain that the market for him hasn't been set and it is difficult for us to judge based on our estimations of how other teams will view him whether he has been unrealistic in his demands this past off season or not.

August 8th, 2012, 9:06 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Avril's Contract: Within 2 weeks?

The Legend wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

mwill2 wrote:

Imagine that you are offered a raise at your job, only to find out that another employee is getting a bigger raise than you. What's worse is that employee's production is inferior to yours over the same length of time! Assuming you have enough leverage to challenge your employer, would you negotiate for a bigger raise? Or would you simply accept the raise out of gratitude, knowing that your inferior is taking home more money?

With respect, in this scenario Calais isn't a coworker of Cliff's as he works for a different company (Arizona). Does this mean that I should hold out if someone at an opposing company is getting paid more than me?

this just highlights that cliff didnt get offerred market value (if cliff hits open market - he could find an equal employer), he got offerred what the lions were able to pay him. it d be nice if stores used that policy, wouldnt it? "oh i cant afford that $1100 computer i can only give you $1000" - might work in some places but generally that is not how things work in this country.

Cliff DID get offered a market value deal. How do I know this? Right now, based on his tender deal he is getting $10.6M for one year. He was offered a deal worth $30M for three years, basically $10M per season.

His Franchise Tag offer is an average of the salaries this season for the top 5 DEs in the NFL.

Is Cliff Avril a top 5 DE? No, he is not. His stats show it. He had his best year as a Lion, and it was his ONLY really good season. To me, that doesn't even remotely qualify him as an elite performer, or a top DE. But as of right now, he's being paid as a top 5 DE.

So, in answer to your question, Avril WAS offered market value, based on the average yearly salary in that deal. What he wanted was a bigger slice of the guaranteed pie. NO TEAM in the NFL is going to fully guarantee a 3 year deal for a player when they are paying him 8 figures a season. But that's essentially what Cliff was holding out hope for. He wanted the bulk of that three year deal guaranteed.

I'd like to see any of you walk into a potential employers office, demand to be paid in the top 1% at your position in the entire country, and when the employer offers you slightly less per year for a three year deal, demand that they guarnantee 75% or more of that, even if you get sick and can't work another day for them.

Let me know how that works out for you.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

August 8th, 2012, 9:29 am

Killwill25

Rookie Player of the Year

Joined: March 5th, 2009, 8:42 pmPosts: 2316Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Avril's Contract: Within 2 weeks?

Quote:

I'd like to see any of you walk into a potential employers office, demand to be paid in the top 1% at your position in the entire country, and when the employer offers you slightly less per year for a three year deal, demand that they guarnantee 75% or more of that, even if you get sick and can't work another day for them.

you cant really compare playing in the NFL to a regular job.

_________________Matthew Stafford is the only player in NFL history who is allowed to smoke cigarettes in the team huddle. He just chooses not to

August 10th, 2012, 12:42 am

thelomasbrowns

Pro Bowl Player

Joined: August 24th, 2010, 9:54 pmPosts: 2482

Re: Avril's Contract: Within 2 weeks?

Killwill25 wrote:

Quote:

I'd like to see any of you walk into a potential employers office, demand to be paid in the top 1% at your position in the entire country, and when the employer offers you slightly less per year for a three year deal, demand that they guarnantee 75% or more of that, even if you get sick and can't work another day for them.

you cant really compare playing in the NFL to a regular job.

What are you talking about? I worry about a career-ending injury whenever I reach for a donut in the morning.

_________________Jim Caldwell, on whether Jim Harbaugh is stealing his thunder: "Me? I don't have any thunder."

August 10th, 2012, 7:54 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Avril's Contract: Within 2 weeks?

Killwill25 wrote:

Quote:

I'd like to see any of you walk into a potential employers office, demand to be paid in the top 1% at your position in the entire country, and when the employer offers you slightly less per year for a three year deal, demand that they guarnantee 75% or more of that, even if you get sick and can't work another day for them.

you cant really compare playing in the NFL to a regular job.

Then why say that we should see things from Avril's point of view? That is asking people who work a regular job, and probably won't earn $20M in two lifetimes to be sympathetic with a guy who turned down exactly that.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

I'd like to see any of you walk into a potential employers office, demand to be paid in the top 1% at your position in the entire country, and when the employer offers you slightly less per year for a three year deal, demand that they guarnantee 75% or more of that, even if you get sick and can't work another day for them.

you cant really compare playing in the NFL to a regular job.

What are you talking about? I worry about a career-ending injury whenever I reach for a donut in the morning.