Posted
by
timothyon Friday March 08, 2013 @09:28PM
from the they-heard-about-the-snacks-and-dancing dept.

dcblogs writes "The number of new undergraduate computing majors in U.S. computer science departments increased more than 29% last year, a pace called 'astonishing' by the Computing Research Association. The increase was the fifth straight annual computer science enrollment gain, according to the CRA's annual survey of computer science departments at Ph.D.-granting institutions. The survey also found that more students are earning a Ph.D., with 1,929 degrees granted — an 8.2% increase over the prior year. The pool of undergraduate students represented in the CRA survey is 67,850. Of that number, 57,500 are in computer science."

It is, if you're under 30 there are plenty of jobs. But as soon as your salary reaches a certain point, manage or panhandle.

I've been hearing that shit since the early years of my career.

I'm 43, making an upper-middle class salary (not counting benefits), doing nothing but coding and software engineering. Management is not anywhere in my plans (not in the near future). I have a colleague in his 50's doing a killing as a contractor (over $100/hr, with O/T.) Others in their 40's and 50's are still doing predominantly technical jobs doing a killing in terms of salaries with no shortage of opportunities. And I'm not talking coding

You pile a lot of qualifications on your claim that IT jobs are plentiful. "... in systems and/or app development spaces" but not quite so much in infrastructure, and "if you have the technical know-how", and "age is rarely an issue". Granted that skills are essential, and that there are a lot of talkers out there who can get hired but can't do the job, but I hardly think that is a problem specific to IT. More than that, rarely isn't good enough. Age should never be an issue. If age is an issue, then

To add to what you said about contracting, which I think is right on (would have modded up if I had points), there are also different ways contractors can be paid (in the US): W2, 1099, or corp-to-corp (c2c). I found this page [biztaxtalk.com] (I am not the author) which has an excellent summary of the three, pros and cons, and the tax implications, including some worked examples. Basically W2 is the easiest for tax purposes (but the rate will usually be lower because the company is paying more taxes), 1099 might draw the a

There's quite a few open-source/FOSS jobs out there (or, at least, "quasi-open-source"), largely thanks to the rise of Android and embedded Linux systems. The pay is quite good since there's not that many people available who can do Linux device drivers and other embedded development.

(I say "quasi-open-source" because these jobs, IME, will usually have you working on closed-source Linux(/Android) drivers and other closed-source software that runs on embedded Linux and Android systems. So you'll be working

Given that certain chancellors of universities are increasing their salaries by ignoring the children of the parents that built the universities. Given that those same chancellors are actively recruiting nonresident students, everywhere. Given that some of the monies those chancellors earn are coming from unknown sources. Should I be amazed that there is a positive correlation to these 3 Givens?

I am 45 and really good at what I do (building web apps), but I'm not good at self-promotion. I'm pretty quiet and just keep my nose to the grindstone to avoid office politics. Any advice on getting _recognition_ for being good at what I do?

Sure. Update your resume and start pounding the pavement (make use of any contacts you might have first, then hit the usual online boards). Or strike out on your own (maybe take a few friends with you, depending on what you signed when you started) and build web apps as a contractor.

Fact remains that your best chance at a pay (and maybe responsibility) increase is to switch employers.

If you're set on staying where you are, the same kinds of things that you would do to make yourself look good on a resume (e.

I am 45 and really good at what I do (building web apps), but I'm not good at self-promotion. I'm pretty quiet and just keep my nose to the grindstone to avoid office politics. Any advice on getting _recognition_ for being good at what I do?

Look for another career. This career is for highly outgoing people who are really good at self-promotion. There's a reason the term "brogrammer" has risen so much in the last decade. As you've probably found, you can get by pretty well when you're younger based solely

US (and most other western nations) unemployment for college graduates is not very good, but if you tease out engineers from arts, you get a pretty decent employment rate out of college. It isn't a safe bet but it is still nowhere near the roughly 50% unemployment for blacks youths for instance. We have it very easy in comparison.

So why do you stay? MS/AL are probably two of the absolute worst states to have a tech job in; there aren't many jobs there to begin with, and those that are there pay shit, as you've found out. This phenomenon is pretty common in all places where there aren't many tech jobs: employers think that because there isn't much local competition, that they can get people to work for pennies, touting the supposedly "low cost of living" as making up for it (it doesn't). Usually, the only reason people stay in the

This is because colleges are increasingly becoming degree mills and focusing on quantity over quality. Previously, only the cream of the crop would go to college, but now everyone is going to college, college degrees are becoming more and more worthless, and colleges are lowering standards to accommodate all the new imbeciles.

That's why you go to a college that actually has standards. There are schools where that is the case, then there are schools that demand a bit more, and you'd be nuts to suggest that the people doing hiring haven't figured out which degrees are valuable and which aren't. At least as far as large employers.

Depends on your definition of standards. I go to a local State college because, well, it's local and I can afford it. If you're paying your own way, there's not a lot of chances for you to go to a very high end university for computer science. I am looking at alternatives for when (if) I get my masters, but I may just end up staying here because of that same exact reason.

What's really important for a computer science graduate isn't necessarily the school, but their own independent projects. While my school isn't the best, it does provide enough information to lay down a foundation for further self study, and those of us that are smart enough to take the initiative to learn additional platforms (Android, embedded systems and robotics, etc.) and build portfolios are doing way better than the others who are just in the major because they 'like the Internet' or heard that it pays well. There's a huge degree of separation between myself, who has just been offered an internship as an Android development intern for a large media corporation, and a couple of my friends/drinking buddy classmates who haven't developed their abilities outside of class projects that were required to receive a passing grade.

Worst case, you take a couple of less than stellar jobs at low pay as you build a bit of a rep, then move up or around. After a few years, your accomplishments are more important than your education, anyway. A 4.0 from MIT might help when securing an interview for Google but most places are more concerned about your ability to reliably deliver. If you can save costs, be it through math, engineering, or intuition, at the same time, most places will be glad to have you. You won't be a rockstar but, unless you like a startup culture, it's not a big deal.

If you don't have the prestigious degree, don't worry about it. Instead, work on business skills (e.g., accounting, taxes, business management, networking, and leadership). Straight out of school in 2003 (less-than-prestigious university), I landed a contract as a software tester. Here's a list of my fuck-ups.- I didn't know the difference between a contractor and an employee. I just knew that it didn't mean stocking shelves at Home Depot at night for minimum wage.- I didn't know what I was worth and it may have cost me the job; I was second choice and given the position after first choice bailed.- I didn't know what I was worth, so I was underpaid.- I didn't incorporate straight away, how to keep books, or what could be written off. The result is that I've probably paid an extra $15k-$20k in taxes over the past decade.- I went to H&R Block (Taxes R Us) to get my taxes done the first time I started writing stuff off and trusted them way more that I should have. They missed some deductions and also have a few oddities in my tax filings that could get me audited.- I didn't socialize enough, which left me out of the loop on important things, like other opportunities and even knowing what the contracting organization was paying other contractors. This probably cost me $5k-$10k in my last year alone.- I didn't stay in touch. People move around and up; your middle manager today may become a senior manager on a high-profile project tomorrow. Keeping in touch will have more opportunities come to you and will give you a leg up in anything you apply to.- Stepped on toes like I was drunkenly dancing in clogs. I was fortunate enough to have a manager that was willing to insulate me from the office politics so I could get work done.

What I did do right:- Studied hard. You'd be amazed how far reading the damn book or instruction manual will get you in life. Study the API, read books on the basics, etc. and you'll be above most people.- Worked diligently. Good performance gets attention. In my case, I was the lone tester and managed to bring down the defects to a very low level.- Looked for ways to save time. By the end, I used my programming skills plus some off-the-shelf software to be able to write and perform about 300 pages of tests in the course of a week.- Asked for that letter of recommendation. When my original supervisor announced he was leaving the organization, I asked if he'd be willing to write a letter of recommendation. That baby is the head-shot of job hunting; whenever I fire off an application, it gets me an interview.- Joined LinkedIn. Sounds corny but it's a great way to keep contact info at your finger tips. It also makes it easier for ex-bosses to prescreen you for a position; open hiring is time consuming and expensive, so it's possible that there will be a choice between hiring you and starting the massive machinery of open hiring. Remember that most people aren't looking for the best person for the job, they are looking for a person that will do the job well.

The skills I learned at school allowed me to execute my duties well. However, from a personal standpoint, I would have done a lot better if I had embraced the business side of things more. Sadly, I learn mostly from my mistakes and not from the mistakes of others.

This is where knowing which school someone's degree(s) came from. The top-tier universities in particular are actually harder to get into than ever to the high number of international & American students vying for acceptance. It's the community colleges & generic state/private schools that are being forced to lower their standards, and that's not because the students are stupid -- it's because so many are being pushed through the K-12 system with abilities that wouldn't have gotten them past the t

Apparently all the advertizing for Visas has high school students confused that there is a shortage of CS people. The side benefit is that having too many graduates will result in the same outcome if the Visa program can not continue to be abused.

Walmart used to hire people with bad credit (after performing credit checks on applicants) because those employees are the closest to indentured servants. THAT business ethic is not restricted to Walmart management. Indentured servants are the goal. CS graduates

> Walmart used to hire people with bad credit (after performing credit checks on applicants) because those employees are the closest to indentured servants

[citation needed]

Not that I can't believe Walmart would do absolutely anything to help their bottom line: they do have plenty of well-documented horrendous employment practices. But: 1) this makes little sense (people with large debt are objectively less responsible and less likely to feel any sense of responsibility toward their employer, not to

You do your homework. I do mine and remember the conclusions. I don't mind doing research because I've done so much of it already but I don't keep sources for everything I read on hand in a database in case I just happen to bring up something I've learned over the course of my life. I don't remember seeing clear cut data on this, but then there wasn't "clear" proof they were purposely discriminating against women - but reasonably looking at it, Walmart does it. You on the other hand are going totally off

Right. It's a well-known fact that the burden of proof is on the reader, not the poster of unsourced claims (claims that even superficial research would tend to disprove). We all know that this is the way good debates are made. Hell, I wonder why Wikipedia does not have a '[find your own goddamn citation]' tag: it would make things so much easier.

Then again, instead of trying to engage and present whatever evidence you may have, you'd rather successively engage in passing anecdotes for universal truth an

It seems that an increasing proportion of Computer Science resumes I receive are from recent graduates who don't know much at all about computer science. They've done a little Java or C++ or VB programming, they've explored such in-depth topics as linked lists and arrays, and they've heard of quicksort.

There are still plenty of schools with respectable CS curricula that would meet these standards. I was only saying that the pool of CS grads is increasingly diluted by folks coming out of lesser programs.

As a very basic heuristic filter: If there are no course requirements for discrete mathematics or computational theory, then it's not a real CS program.

Let's see, I love computers, I love programming, I love everything associated with how computers do what they do. I love solving problems using a computer, I love building information systems from scratch. I love databases and cryptography. What do you suggest I pick my major to be mr asshat? Are you saying I should pick English as my major? Or should I study what I like and what get's the recruiters at career fair jizzing when they see my resume? I know people who graduated years ago. A Finance major t

but why spend 4 years in school and walk out with a worthless piece of paper? At least get a business degree. A business degree lets you apply for any job out there. A CS degree gets you replaced by an H1B. And no, I don't suggest an English Major. Yes, there are worse majors for employment than CS, but you work damn hard for that CS degree...

I can't speak for you but my 4 years in university were anything but useless. I was forced to learn to think in different ways and approach problems from different perspectives. Also, that piece of paper opened doors, even if they were as simple as being able to check the "has CS degree" box on the employment application. Co-op/internship was very helpful as well; I got to work on a high profile project and rub elbows with some rather important people while doing interesting work.

Let's see, I love computers, I love programming, I love everything associated with how computers do what they do. I love solving problems using a computer, I love building information systems from scratch. I love databases and cryptography. Guess what I will do when I graduate?

Yeah, but all those positions they can't fill are senior-level positions which are kind of irrelevant for a recent graduate. A lot of the junior level stuff has been sent overseas, and there's lots of competition for what's left.

I managed to retire from the field this year after about 27 years in it.

The path I've seen is bad.

Brutal hours, work holidays and weekends, low status, decent pay.Actual early death, lots of divorce (if you can manage to get married).

Last job worked us 70+ hours for 2 years. 3 deaths, multiple non-fatal heart attacks. The free lunch and dinner at our desks was a nice perk tho it dropped in quality and healthiness as time went on. The pay was good (about $100 to $125k) in the south.

Now I hear the people who were not laid off are basically being worked even harder and they don't even have the benefits of being laid off.

If you go into CS, do what i did. Live on half of what you made and save the rest.

Argh, replying to my reply because I left off part of what I wanted to say.

set my own hours, never work more than 40 hrs/wk and get great benefits (and lots of free beer). maybe you were just in a bad location?

this industry is great.

Like the original post this was a reply to, my 2nd job out of college was with, let's just say a large software corporation in the Pacific Northwest.

I worked 60+ hours a week for 3 years. Evenings, Saturdays, Holidays, hell I even worked one day of my vacation (as in, I was out of town visiting some friends where I went to college. That happened to be in the same city as a large OEM computer manufacturer. I went in to the vendor on m

That industry is salaried non-exempt. Which means they're required by law to pay overtime, even to salaried employees. NO ONE else has to do that. They're all exempt. So everywhere outside the defense industry, the GGP's situation is the norm, not the exception.

Unless you go to a decent school where CS IS engineering. Including the same math and physics requirements. Then when you fail out of engineering, you end up in business school.

CS is not FUCKING ENGINEERING. It never will be. It is called Computer Science for a reason. Most ME/EE graduates I knew had FORTRAN, C and C++ for Numerical Analysis, Finite Element Analysis, Computational Fluid Dynamics and more. Not a goddamn CS would understand a fucking think about Fracture Mechanics but an ME would boringly pick up a programming language just by reading the damn book. Want to learn about UNIX Networking, or threading just read some quality books on both the theory and application. Wan

Someone has an awfully fucking large ax to grind, don't they? Let's see an EE build Google Maps from scratch with his cute little books about hash tables and UNIX Networking and shitty FEM code scrapped together in FORTRAN. Just pick up some quality books on the theory and application of ____________ and you can build incredibly complex, massive-scale information systems using the power of numerical analysis and computational fluid dynamics.

You just need a little bit more physics, able to deal with circuits, microcontroller and so on. Looks much better than CS at least on paper.

A little more Physics? I'm sorry, but having both CS and a Mechanical Engineering, CS might as well be an Art Degree by comparison. I'll take an EE degree holder over a CS major every day of the week to hire.

I only know one EE that is satisfied with being an EE. All of the others are trying to get CS jobs and wishing they actually had some CS training. The only EE knowledge I have heard of being widely useful is basic circuit analysis which you can get in just a few classes. Granted, there are going to be some jobs where in depth EE knowledge is actually useful but those jobs are few and far between. What you really want is a CPE degree where you become a competent programmer combined with a basic knowledge

Well, I was EE. Favorite was logic circuits and assembly language, and FPGA's. Making digital and analog circuits in lab was rewarding. That led to more and more circuit building, and eventually to higher level programming, and embedded work. And now applying logic to backend and frontend web work. Basically, if you're good, software and hardware are similar. A different medium. You're solving a problem with logic. Anyway, EE is a great, well rounded degree, leads to great opportunities, overlapping

Right backatcha. Too many CS types I've worked with just don't get hardware because they've only taken freshman physics and have never had to stay up all night trying to debug a faulty bit just to get a project done. And they can't quite grasp that even an occasional segfault in a program that controls moving machinery is not acceptable.

When you're dealing with moving hardware, any software development really needs t be approached as a engineering discipline. Most software development needs to be approached as more of a craft, however. I wish more people simply understood the difference. Instead manager types tend to expect you to PFM* a solution.

I've found just the opposite. We hire mostly EE and physics grads in preference to CS. Computer science programs don't teach people to code, and when you suggest that they should the academics always come back with "We're a university, not a trade school!"

I bet you pretty much all of them have a secondary degree that is not math or they had a technical elective focus that was not math (programming, engineering, economics, etc.). I'm talking about a BS in math without some external, applicable focus. Sure, if you tack on other things you can do well and find non-teaching jobs. It is kind of like a business degree in that it, in and of itself, won't net you a lot of jobs. If you combine it with other things it can make you a desirable employee.

If your going into college and you haven't coded anything yet, give up on CS or EE. You can likely do both, but you will never be really good. You don't love it enough. You better be open to being a better coder though.

For EE I'd raise the bar some more. If you don't already know how to use basic bench equipment don't go into EE.

If you've never blown anything up, don't even bother going into engineering of any kind.

If your [sic] going into college and you haven't coded anything yet, give up on CS or EE. You can likely do both, but you will never be really good. You don't love it enough. You better be open to being a better coder though.

For EE I'd raise the bar some more. If you don't already know how to use basic bench equipment don't go into EE.

What a crock of shit. I hadn't programmed or played around with circuits before heading to university, yet managed to leave, the first time around, with an S.B./S.M. EECS, either sole or first authorship on more than ten top-tier journal papers, a handful of patents, and more than enough money on which to retire from having worked at and propped up a start-up company.

For those who might come across HornWumpus' comment, do not, even for a brief moment, feel discouraged. Anyone, regardless of his or her bac

I matriculated when I was fourteen, about two years before the turn of the second millennium, and finished both degrees before I turned twenty. Despite starting early, I was far from the youngest graduate, as one of my peers managed to complete an S.B./M.Eng. CS by the time he was sixteen.

In any event, in both my situation and his, let alone those of others I have encountered, we all had little prior experience dealing with electronics and computers yet plenty of natural aptitude for and budding interest i

In my experience, after getting a comp sci degree, I had few job opportunities. After completing my computer engineering degree, i got a excellent job before my final exams had even started. I guess the comp sci helped, but engineering is where its at.

doesnt hurt that I got a applied math degree tacked onto the eng either...8 years for 3 degrees...and I have a job where I help people with phDs and masters. I would say go for breadth, not depth. It makes you more employable. I can design circuits, make

They seem to be a like a bunch of 5th graders learning to dribble with their non-dominant hand with their present inability to make caching efficient of stored states inside a max/min windowing environment. Hint: Talk to Apple. NeXT did it back in '89.

No, don't. The solution is to modernise the parts of X that need it, not throw out the best GUI in existence in a quixhotic quest for shiny things.

I think half the reason that it's stalled is because the authors call X "legacy" and therefore old and bad and complicated so replacing it is obviously easy. Of course, it's not, and X wasn't written by idiots. Replacing it is really hard because it does a really hard job. Most of the reason its complex is because the world is not simpl

I graduated right after the dotcom bust, when everyone was looking for jobs and had lots of experience. Even with a degree from Carnegie Mellon, programming since I could press buttons, and my main hobby at home programming, I couldn't start my career. I thought of hiding in academia myself, but the major problem was I couldn't get student aid. Having student loans I can't ever pay off now is a pain as is.

Just a couple suggestions... most people in IT aren't very religious... I don't mind (lean deist myself), but some might... you may want to do some work on your personal website, assuming your name matches the site... It doesn't need to be perfect.. just a little nicer (there are templates to work with like bootstrap, even platforms like wordpress)... If you have personal projects to show off, etc.. throw them up on github (assuming you have the rights).

You may not like it, but recruiters tend to prefer a Word-format resume. (In part, I think, because it's easier for them to remove your contact information so that principals don't contact you directly, and monkey with it in other ways - they can do this with HTML, too, and PDF, but it's more difficult.) I get ideological purity (although given that.doc and.docx are both fairly open it's not so relevant), but be aware it may be a tradeoff. (Also: in before "I wouldn't want to work for anyone that wanted a

If you are as good as you think you are, find a way to show it. Seriously, there is a major disconnect between your situation and the skill set you claim to have. What's missing? A degree from CMU and 10 thousand hours of coding don't amount to anything if, for example, you just suck at problem-solving.

There are plenty of relevant positions to fill and you remain unemployed.

So here's a test of your problem-solving skills: Figure out what you're doing wrong.

The "Computing Research Association" is a lobbying group. It's not on K Street NW in DC like most lobbyists. It's on L street, one block over. It's a lobby for federal funding for college CS departments.

Here's the actual report. [cra.org] Two charts are upside down. The focus is on race and gender. There's little discussion of CS vs IT vs EE vs CE degrees, although there are some separate table columns. Employment statistics are provided only for PhD graduates.

If you examine Figure 1 in the report, there was a downward slide from 2001-2007 and an increase from 2007-now. That mostly matches what is seen for all majors in Figure 2.
The real story here seems to be the overall education trend, not CS specifically.

I think there are a good number of kids staying in college (ore returning to college) because of poor job prospects. It may be that they have no degree, or their degree is in a less commercial field.

They are racking up massive college debt hoping to ride out the bad economy and land on their feet on the other side - but mere posession of a CS degree may not be the "golden ticket" it once was to a high-paying career...

So???? Call me when CompSci requirements across the board are on par (or attempt to be on par) with top-notch universities, like Stanford. We have been seeing a continuously increasing enrollment in CompSci since the dot-com era. And that has gone hand-in-hand with a watering down of CompSci curricula (seriously, how can someone graduate with a CompSci degree without ever knowing what a pointer is, or what an assembly instruction looks like *)

True enough... no degree here.. self taught going on 17 years of professional dev... It is amazing how much a CS grad does not know... though the same goes for MS* certs. I think a lot of people just don't know how to work through real problems. For that matter.. dealing with supporting bad code... I spend about 1/3 of my time dealing with code I would just assume rip out, and replace.. sometimes I can refactor a little, sometimes more.. and sometimes you hold your nose and get the enhancement duck taped