Monday, April 26, 2010

British expert: TBH was not murdered

Updated, Wed morning:-

In TBH sudden death inquest: DAP supporters are desperate, blogger Zakhir Mohamad quotes a Bernama report on a threat to Vanezis' life and to his family. The British pathologist lodged a police report against the email threat, which was described by the MACC as "offensive, intimidating and threatening".

Original report:

Closing in on the truth.Two foreign pathologists were brought in to observe the 2nd autopsy that was conducted on Teoh Beng Hock after Dr Pornthip's 80 percent-homicide theory. British renowned expert Prof Peter Vanezis came in on behalf of the Malaysian Anti Corruption Commission and Dr Pornthip herself was engaged by the Selangor state government, who was TBH's employer.

This morning, according to The Malay Mail, Vanezis told the inquest into TBH's death that TBH's death was not homicide. And in view that Pornthip has not been able to substantiate her earlier theory that there was an80 percent chance that TBH was murdered, Vanezis' testimony and that of local pathologist who conducted the 2nd autopsy bring us a step closer to the truth about TBH's death.

Teoh Not Strangled, Fully Conscious When He Fell - British Pathologist

SHAH ALAM, April 26 (Bernama) -- Former political aide Teoh Beng Hock was fully conscious when he fell and had attempted to break his fall from a height, a British forensics expert testified at the inquest into his death here Monday.

Professor Dr Peter Vanezis, who had participated in the investigations into the death of British royalty, Princess Diana, and is currently engaged by the Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission (MACC), said he found no evidence that Teoh was strangled prior to his death.

He said Teoh had landed feet first, based on the pattern of fractures on the deceased's pelvis, and upper and lower limbs "I am not in a position to say categorically, whether or not the deceased had been somehow physically forced out of the window while he was conscious.

"The injuries on his lower limbs also showed that Teoh had attempted to break his fall," added the pathologist in his maiden appearance at the inquest.

On July 17, last year, Teoh was found dead on the fifth floor of Plaza Masalam here after questioning by the Selangor MACC, located in the same building, as part of investigations into alleged irregular disbursement of state funds.

Dr Vanezis, and Thai pathologist Pornthip Rojanasunand -- hired by the Selangor Government -- had observed a second post-mortem on Teoh's exhumed remains last November.

The British pathologist noted there were no signs of restraint on Teoh's body.

"There were no obvious marks of restraint on the body. However, it is possible that a person can be restrained with no bruising being found...it depends on the manner and force applied in such circumstances," he said.

Based on his observations, Dr Vanezis said there was no evidence that Teoh's neck had been compressed, as with strangulaton.

The bruises on the neck region were part of the overall injuries from the fall, he said.

The inquest is before Coroner Azmil Muntapha Abas.

To questions by MACC prosecution chief Datuk Abdul Razak Musa, Dr Vanezis said he concluded that none of Teoh's injuries indicated he was killed by any other means and thrown out of a window from the 14th floor of Plaza Masalam.

On the injuries to Teoh's anus which Dr Pornthip had suggested was caused by the forced insertion of an object, Dr Vanezis refuted the finding, saying they were caused by the fall.

Toxicological tests showed there were no evidence that Teoh was incapacitated by alcohol or drugs, he said.

Dr Vanezis said he was unable to say whether Teoh had been subjected to some form of intimidation which might have led to his fall.

He also disagreed with Dr Pornthip's findings that Teoh might have been dragged, prior to his fall, based on marks on his shoes.

He said the shoes were badly damaged, most probably due to Teoh landing on his feet first and this was clearly seen from multiple injuries on the legs.

At this juncture, government-appointed counsel Tan Hock Chuan told the coroner that all parties agreed that only two issues were still in contention -- the injuries on Teoh's neck and the manner by which the victim fell.

To another question by Abdul Razak, Dr Vanezis reiterated that Teoh was well-oriented and there was no evidence to indicate pre-fall injuries as stated by Dr Pornthip.

Asked by counsel Gobind Singh Deo, representing Teoh's family, to clarify how he gathered the history of the case, Dr Vanezis said he was briefed by MACC officers who sought his expert opinion, besides access to documents, photographs and pathologists who conducted the first post-mortem.

He said, although he relied on the briefings and documents, he also verified certain facts before making his final findings.

Dr Vanezis explained in length why he did not probe further on the shoe print found on the window of the 14th floor of the building when he visited the crime scene, since it was not part of his work.

The inquest continues tomorrow for Gobind to seek further clarification from the British pathologist.

In a related development, the coroner is expected to give his decision on whether to grant leave to Teoh's brother to cite Minister in the Prime Minister's Department Datuk Seri Nazri Abdul Aziz for contempt of court for branding Dr Pornthip a "liar".

The flamboyant Dr Pornthip stated earlier that she would not be present to give further evidence because she had received "political pressure" from certain parties.

I am fully convinced that Peter Vanezis IS the intrenationally acknowledged expert his CV says he is and that he's as neutral as you can get. He's not the kind of professional who would lie in any court or bend the evidence or twist the facts.

So too is Dr. Pornthip, regardless of how she's been demonised by the shenanigans of rogue elements in MACC, Parpukari, Unspinners and other pro-establishment bloggers!!

But then this matter of two leading experts in the same field disagreeing is not unique; think of Einstein vs Planck or Einstein vs Neils Bohr!!

We can discount the local expert's views since he was so defensive of the bungling of the earlier PM. It's obvious he's not objective and may well have been intimidated by the enormity of the responsibility thrust upon him!

So, we are no closer to the truth than before.

Kerismudin must ensure pronto that Dr.Pornthip is given the protection and assistance the Justice Dept in Thailand has asked for so she can conclude her testimony in court here! The ball is clearly in PM Najib's court!

Otw, the question mark over TBH's death will continue to hover over MACC and come GE 2013, as in HS, we know where certain votes will continue to migrate to for sure!!

To Goh Wei Liang,the issues as raised by Dr Porntip is that there is 80% possibilities that it is homoside by looking at the mark at TBH neck. The second autopsy was done to confirm her theory but it was otherwise shown. One cannot explain why someone will jump from a building. If you still insist to know why either you go to temple by calling the spirit through a medium (mun Mai) or you go personally to the underworld to ask him. What a moron you are by keep asking why this, why that. Sometime there is no definate answer for things that happen but we try to find the nearest one as possible. Our Malaysian Government have tried their very best. Then again if you have doubt on the British Pathology then you should ask that to Dr Porntip also, right and fair.Let's continue with our life and kindly let him rest peacefully.

...and what are you suggesting? everyone wants the truth, but of course not they way the thai porno star deduced her conclusion. I suppose you and your kind are the ones who are scared of the Truth, that TBH either jumped to his death for he felt utterly guilty of revealing the truth to MACC, or was pushed to death by DAP gangster who was last seen with him, for not wanting TBH to reveal more about DAP corrupt practices.

The biggest sin committed by MACC was its failure to give the highest `protection' to its most `precious' witness. Why would MACC `killed' his own witness.

Ask the two loya nak muntah Go B(eh)ind Sinky and Malik Imtiaz, they should know the whole truth by now. That's why they create the situation for Porno Tit not to appear in Malaysian court.

To Dr.Porntip Malaysians would like to award you the Pinocchio Award as the Best Liar of the Century. The prestigious award will be handed by none other than Kapal Sink, witness by N.Ajis and Lim Kesian.

No, no, he jumped cos he only had RM3k in his bank account, and he was about to get married to the woman he impregnated.

No need to spin so much for your masters, Rocky. The guilty ones will know and will one day be brought to account for their actions. By none other than the spirit of TBH....and you should be wary of "knock....knock" sounds in the middle of the night....

Most of us want to know the truth however painful it may be. TBH cannot tell us but his body can with the assistance of the pathologists. And whom do we want to listen? It depends. For the many gullible people out there they prefer to listen to the instant mee "experts" of the cyberworld. These self declared experts apparently know much more than Dr Vanesis, a world renowned forensic expert.

Most of us want to know the truth however painful it may be. TBH cannot tell us but his body can with the assistance of the pathologists. And whom do we want to listen? It depends. For the many gullible people out there they prefer to listen to the instant mee "experts" of the cyberworld. These self declared experts apparently know much more than Dr Vanesis, a world renowned forensic expert.

"Beng Hock was fully conscious when he fell and had attempted to break his fall from a height..."

Now, makes me wonder why a suicide victim would want to break his fall? In other words according to this British expert who is the MACC's pathologist, it was not suicide!!

So if it was not suicide? Was it an accident? Like maybe he was sitting on the ledge and he slipped!! Or maybe there was a ghost in that building that airlifted Beng Hock outside the window and let him have a free fall?

Anonymous 10.00 PM, No need to speculate. There are many ways a person can fall from a building. Let the experts determine what exactly had happened. We are not the experts. We are just mere speculators.

In South Africa, during apartheid many under police custody died of falls, bleeds ect ect, the verdict was there werent murdered. Even Steve Biko, police claimed his death was the result of an extended hunger strike.

Bottomline is, I dont know if Teoh jumped or was killed. What I do know is he died in a police custodial office, and that his watch is missing. Where is Teoh's watch.. did it have legs to run away ??

We all are coming closer to the truth!The unspoken fact within DAP (but no one dares to reveal the truth of face party expulsion) is this - TBH committed suicide because he had earlier found out that his girlfriend was carrying Ean Yong Hian Wah's son.

Add in the pressure from being investigated for corruption, this boy snapped and lost it. He chose to jump and go SPLATTT!! rather than face the truth of raising Ean Yong Hian Wah's child and possible jail term.

We must not discount the fact that this British Expert's opinion is affected prejudicely as he was briefed by MACC pertaining to the way TBH died before he examine or participate in the 2nd autopsy. This is a clear indication of violation of justice. This is also a clear indication that MACC indeed has something to hide.

As for Porntip, well, if the Home Ministry is so sure of her security, why cant they write the much needed guarantee letter demanded by the Thai authority?

Everything in this case doesnt look like the truth is about to be revealed. It looks like a big conspiracy for a mistake that shouldnt have happened. We are far from fair and just.

Now they want a written guarantee from the Govt. The Govt will provide and they will say the letter is fake...Then they will ask for Polis escort.No cannot, Polis can C4 her.So lastly they demand Datuk Hisham and Datuk Nazri to personally escort her....haa baru ngam....

for a pathologist who can give an 80% sure opinion before actually examining the body, pornthip is no better than those chow kit medicine sellers. the selangor govt and pakatan fanboys should be ashamed of themselves by presenting this 'expert' witness.

Its no longer a mystery why Dr Porntip refuse to come, I think her "expert" testimony will be ripped to shreds under cross examination by the Government counsel with the additional info from the second autopsy. Gobind dan Imtiaz boleh mampu menganga sahjalah.

Yes we are now finally closer to the truth about TBH death as we now now that he was conscious when he fell down the height.

Goh, Dato' Rocky can't tell you how and why TBH jumped lah, that's for the coroner to find out and for you to keep on coming out with your speculations not based on facts as usual.

The reasons as to why he jumped is best left to him,his taikohs, his fiancee?, his unborn and the guy who last saw him in the pantry to reveal.After all, the thought fucked up jumper knows better as to why he jumped as, probably, does the "last alive" witness than the rest of us non-jumpers and non=shovers.

Photographs for autopsy. Well, a certain Peter Venizis has this to say here.

Caution: Such information will ONLY be useful to intelligent, educated and informed folks in search of truth NOT the gutter variety Chingkie who will dismiss it as a western invention and diss it as 'cut and paste' so he can continue slurping pigswill comfortably in his shithole of ignorance, stupidity and prejudice.

Again such information should only be perused if you are not a racist, bigoted Chingkie idiot.

To those who continue to question the guy's evidence or his credentials, I think it is better to take it up with Lancet,the University of Glasgow, the British Medical Council etc.

To those who harp on the MACC briefing, do remember that Mrs Porn also received a Selangor state government briefing beforehand.

It is apparent why Mrs Porn is playing coy:

1. her sensational allegations based on a set of photos have been shredded as crap.

2. tactical: let Venizis have his say first then cover her tracks by tailoring her evidence accordingly.

3. fear of being exposed as a charlatan based on this. Look under government response and judge for yourselves whether a credible scientist would have spoken like that.

Finally, for those inhabiting cloud cuckoo land, NOTHING, not even a resurrected TBH will ever disabuse them from the collective hypnotic spell cast by Messrs, AI LKS, GS, LGE RL and co just as they are wont to believe that the sliteyed, wispybearded, pig odoured "Son of Heaven" and his menagerie of whores, eunuchs, terra-cottans reside within the pigshitstrewn and urine flooded dungeons of the Forbidden City awaiting the pig squeals on the dawn of the second cumming....

So tell us Rocky, in your opinion was TBH jumped off the building all by himself (for no reasons) ??

Goh Wei Liang

10:00 PM

apek,how do you know the dead fella got no reason for jumping? maybe he went to see Anwar secretly in a condo... and one thing lead to another.. and the next thing you know he regretted and couldn't deal with it?

the moral of the story: don't pass judgement if you know nothing about it. other people can also speculate. hate to disrespect dead people, but it's people like you who know nuts love to pass judgement based on your sentiment.

To Goh Wei Liang, as we are not expert in forensic science and you are having masters in Economics it is better to just listen to the experts. Try not to be bipartisan in our judgement. There is no identity theft here and glad that you're such a highly educated person. Sometimes common sense did help a lot yo. Good luck.

From where I come from (Singapore),a certain ethnic group are more prone to suicide than others.

Simple reasons like gambling(harassing by ah long)loss of job,business fold up,affairs of the heart,suffering of illnesses,debts from friends etc....will make them decide just like that.Sometimes they take along their children too.

Before, the trend of suicide are jumping off residential govt. flats but lately the trend has changed to jumping off from an in-coming train. Typical,sad.

Ya.. why would someone who is determine to commit suicide tries to break the fall? meaning, why would he chose to want to die than halfway thru, tried to save himself by breaking the fall? Very strange..

All this is premature. I can understand why The Malay Mail would want to go to town with this headline (i.e. to sell more newspapers), but I don't see why you also need to.

Furthermore, here is what the good doctor said, I quote from The Malay Mail -

"I am not in a position to say whether the deceased had somehow been physically forced out of the window whilst conscious, although in my view from the evidence I have seen, this appears unlikely." It was also stated in court that the pathologist was unable to find any signs of self-harm marks on Teoh's body, such as cuts or injection puncture marks.

However, Dr Vanezis could not say if Teoh was subjected to intimidation before the fall and stated there were no obvious signs of restraint on the body.

He said even so, a body could be restrained without any mark being left on it.

Stupid fellow like you should be caned for irresponsible and shamelessly stupid comment.The blogger is just reporting the facts.

1. Dr Venezis says that TBH was conscious when he jumped from that window.

2.TBH was conscious when he adopted a defensive stance to break the impact of his fall hence the nature of his injuries which Venezis described in detail based on graphic CT scan data.Most of which match those mentioned here

Both (1) and (2) would not have been the case if strangulation had taken place as strangulation would have rendered the individual unconsciusness or semi-conscious at best.

Such is the stupidity of the PR folk that they will grasp any straws to back their silly theories. This case is an open-shut case of suicide. Why? ask the dead man in the afterlife if you have the time.

This is the answer given by British renowned expert Prof Peter Vanezis.

Let us help google translate and see if you can understand what he said...

Prof Vanezis..."I am not in a position to say whether the deceased had somehow been physically forced out of the window whilst conscious, although in my view from the evidence I have seen, this appears unlikely." It was also stated in court that the pathologist was unable to find any signs of self-harm marks on Teoh's body, such as cuts or injection puncture marks....

TRANSLATED TO BM THEN TO SIMPLIFIED CHINESE

"I am not qualified to say whether the deceased was forced to withdraw to some degree by the body, while awareness of the window, although I see from the evidence I have, this seems unlikely." It was also stated in court that a pathologist can not find Teoh institutions, such as cutting or injection puncture marks, any harm their own mark...

Alamak...

No-Name Lah, you must have spent sleepless nights TRYING TO FIGURE OUT what this Prof commented?

Dr Vanezis hardly comes as a reliable Court witness for justice. But the establishment is hardly concerned about that. From a report in the UK, Vanezis is a shabby academic whose reputation and opinion must now be disregarded.

"...Years ago, Vanezis went to court with a brief about a woman's murder that he had not read thoroughly. When asked about the wounds, he read out "stabbed incised wounds". The judge knew that stab wounds and incisions were two different things and admonished him, saying "you don't give a fig about this case".

Professor Vanezis scurried out of court too quickly to pick up his remittance...."