Before you attack me understand I wrote the above to prove that there are different types of games in the multiplayer online space. Also, I'm not really trying to get into semantics, I already said time and time again the term MMO itself as in the Massively part is a buzzword from the early 2000s that helped usher in a whole new way of thinking for a generation of gamers.. all of that aside...

WE ALL KNOW WHAT MMOS USED TO BE!

But what are they today?

MMOs have changed and if you haven't realized it yet then maybe this helps.

Destiny, Warframe, Division, Fallout76, Anthem etc are ushering in the new era of "MMO" the "MMO-Lite"

ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM: SIZE vs EXPERIENCE

MMO isn't about the size anymore, I've said this so many times, it's about the experience. The MMO experience is in all of these games, that is something undeniable. The only argument I see here on the holy grail is that the lite games cant support 500-1000 people at once per lobby. That concept of 500 people playing in the same space is dated and applies only to traditional MMOs. Whats funny is Dungeons are 4-5 people at a time, Raids 40 at a time, PVP is 20 v 20, or 40 v 40 max on some games.. but let's not act like you are constantly with 500+ people in your personal game space because you are not. Fortnite has 100 PPI but is not an MMO or MMO lite. It's not the number of people playing that makes a game MMO... again the point about Massively being a buzzword only. I Digress.

THE MONEY: Lots of It

Publishers follow the money. Traditional MMO games are a big risk, a big investment with little to no payoff so nobody is willing to do it, but, and TRUMP BUTT (T H I C C ) the MMO features are so good and sell so well, that you can add them to other types of popular games, add in a fair cash shop and you can give away the game/content for "FREE". This is how these games survived mostly, they cut the idea of a Subscription (mostly anyway) and went buy to play forever, we will update later, add cash-shop and a few xpacs, and there's your new MMO Business Model. Look at GTA Online.

Warframe has 40 Million people playing it. They gave it out for free. Destiny and The Division both 20m. B2P games.

No Traditional MMO (Again Maybe peak WoW) ever had those numbers so you are right they aren't traditional MMOs, and they don't wanna be. 20-40 Million potential customers buying a $5.00 cosmetic is a hell of a lot of money.

YOUR MMO HAS EVOLVED! MMO-LITE DATA SAVED IN POKEDEX!

You don't have to correct everyone who says MMO to these games. It makes you sound outdated, old and bitter. They are MMOs. MMO-Lites but still, types of MMOs. A revolution of the MMO.

This isn't Diablo or Fortnite we are talking about. We are talking about games with obvious MMO features. large persistent worlds, character progression, no offline mode, Item tiers, expansion packs, guilds, PvP/PvE, raids, dungeons, prestige raids.. etc etc etc etc... the list goes on. These are all things you can do in both MMO-Lites and MMOs.

Diablo just misses the MMO-Lite title because it only allows 4 players at a time across all its modes, therefore its just a CO-OP Action RPG. If Diablo would allow 10-20 people per lobby then that's an MMO-Lite. But it doesn't. Warframe, Destiny, Division, GTAO does.

BIG CATS AND LITTLE CATS (Conclusion)

Tigers and Tabbys are both CATS. Different types of CATS but still the features are so similar that you have to call both CATS. Tabby is "CAT-Lite" Tigers are "CATS". You don't get to say Stop calling Tabbys "CATS" because they aren't big or as vicious as Tigers. You also don't get to say "wElL wAt aBooUt KhAjiiTT kAts bYe uR deFinishUn tHaT's a KaT toO." Khajiit is a fictional cat/human thing and Fictional cat/human things deserve their own category. I was talking about just Cats.

Well, Dragonborn Jonny, I already said what Diablo is, and I told you what Destiny is. Both are cool and Similar but not the same thing and should be separated. MMO-Lite is very specific.

Some of the top games in the world are "MMO-lite" and that's hard for a person with rose tinted glasses to see, but that's okay, it doesn't change anything!

To me, what is happening is the evolution of a Genre we loved growing up. The traditional MMO as we knew has all but died. From its ashes comes the MMO lite. It's up to us to accept it or not but it's here and more than likely not going anywhere. Who knows maybe its just a placeholder for what's next but we would be fools to not pay attention and try to ignore it in hopes of getting the year 2003 back.

Random but relevant, I wonder if the people who played MUDs were in denial of the change when Meridian59 and UO came out? Could you imagine? 1995 Forums: "Why Meridan59 isn't a MUD" or 1997: "Ultima Online is just a MUD with graphics"

lol Keanu Reeves sounds more Matrixy than Neo.

"PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

"Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

I don't really care about defining whether or not something is an 'MMO'. It's the least important thing about a game.

I could have no interaction with anyone in WoW one day, even though I see them all the time.. but in Destiny I would regularly have people working with me to achieve a goal, like completing a zone event.

I don't really care about defining whether or not something is an 'MMO'. It's the least important thing about a game.

I could have no interaction with anyone in WoW one day, even though I see them all the time.. but in Destiny I would regularly have people working with me to achieve a goal, like completing a zone event.

On that day, Destiny was more multiplayer than WoW was...

True I'm not really trying to define MMO (been there done that) as much as I'm trying to Define whats MMO-Lite. It's only an observation. I agree with your point too. Some games are more active than others making them feel more multiplayer than others and that counts for something.

Interesting times. MMO-Lites are more Multiplayer than some Traditional MMOs these days.

"PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

"Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

Not at all. I was trying to say that my bro labeled me something. I was trying to be funny and not offensive to you. I meant you no harm. I read a little bit then realized it was a long post and stopped reading.

Just adding labels to things . . . Basically I'm being a tool and meant no disrespect to you.

Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrixYou can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.

The thing is though Klash2Def would you want a tiger or a pussycat as a pet?

You said yourself, MMOs have evolved...have they evolved past the point where games you are calling MMO-lite should not be using MMO anymore?

Your list of games is much like what I would knock up, only difference being you have brought quite different styles of gameplay under MMO-lite. That is not a huge issue for me it is when MMO-lite games get put on lists with MMOs or is discussed as if they are an MMORPG, that I really disagree with.

Sigh ... again ............ Listen we are all very sympathetic to whatever shortcomings you are forced to deal with in life ,But coming here once a month to try and convince us that "Size doesnt matter" wont work ..

Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

No such thing as MMO-lite. It makes literally no sense. Less than massively-multiplayer is multiplayer. If a game isn't massively multiplayer, it isn't an MMO. That is pretty clear.

Just because some idiots who don't know what the acronym stands for want to make it mean something else doesn't mean its right. There is literally no disputing what MMO means as its in the words. Its like starting to pretend that Large is also Medium. Its stupid.

How can OP feel they can argue what MMO stands for when they make a statement like "MMO features"... .there are no "MMO features" as the only FEATURE MMO stands for is the fact its a massive amount of people playing together online. OP is probably trying to apply the standardized features of an MMORPG to the rules. OP needs to learn what MMO actually means. MMORPG is a genre that includes persistence, leveling, character development and all that. MMO is just the descriptor to the RPG part that tries in desperation to explain to OP that it is only stating its an MMO variant.

Can I start calling myself a small giant, because calling things what they actually are isn't the thing to do.

A real question here: did you actually read or just respond to the title?

I read all of it, you are completely wrong, so much so you can't tell the difference between a tiger and tabby.

It might be true all tigers are (big) cats, but clearly not all "cats" are tigers.

Same here, all MMORPGS are massively multiplayer games, but not all games are massively multiplayer.

Saying otherwise makes one look willfully ignorant and out of touch with reality.

Its amazing how some people on this website will always try to change the narrative as if its going to go unnoticed.

I never said all games are massively multiplayer. Don't lie.

I never said "all cats are tigers." I never said all games are MMORPGs. Where did you get that from? Please stop acting like a Y2k glitch, its 2018.

Again. A tabby (small cat) and a Tiger (big cat) are both types of cats. Again. A MMO-lite (DESTINY) and a MMORPG (WoW) are both types of MMOs.

How are you missing this? How did you fix the above as me saying "all games are MMOs" huh?

You can be in denial all you want about the changes happening but its not going to change the facts.

Old School MMOs are done. Deal with it. MMO Lites are filling the mmo voids for millions of people. (Yes millions play Destiny) Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger. The only person who looks out of touch are the people like yourself that yearn for "old school" MMOs so much that they hate on anything new or popular. Let it go. You constantly hate.

I don't have to tell you Destiny or Warframe are MMO-Lites you can see yourself when you play. I'm not breaking it down again. As I said I'm going to bring this topic up again in 12 months. its getting harder and harder each year for people like yourself to deny the change. Its happening. You don't have to accept it.

and since you want to be passive aggressive, let me remind you that -You- look willfully like a out of touch "back in my day!" face ass gamer.

Isn't there a emulator you can get on? Don't you miss Vanguard, SWG or UO? Go hop in your time machine.

Stay mad that your y2k term slightly means something else today.

"PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

"Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

No such thing as MMO-lite. It makes literally no sense. Less than massively-multiplayer is multiplayer. If a game isn't massively multiplayer, it isn't an MMO. That is pretty clear.

Just because some idiots who don't know what the acronym stands for want to make it mean something else doesn't mean its right. There is literally no disputing what MMO means as its in the words. Its like starting to pretend that Large is also Medium. Its stupid.

OP needs to learn what MMO actually means. MMORPG is a genre that includes persistence, leveling, character development and all that. MMO is just the descriptor to the RPG part that tries in desperation to explain to OP that it is only stating its an MMO variant.

in 2018 MMO-Lite makes a whole lot of sense. What are you talking about, have you played any of these games? I don't -Need- to do anything.

Damn.. its really mostly old y2k dudes on this website bitching about the closure of games from 15 years ago. You are so bitter that you cant see anything new happening with the Genre. Your old MMO game is over. Its not coming back no matter how hard you cry. Older people have a hard time with sight especially foresight. MMO-Lites are the future of MMOs. You don't have to like it. You dont need to accept. It's already happening.

Btw this part you typed "MMORPG is a genre that includes persistence, leveling, character development and all that"

.. sounds exactly like Destiny. I love that word, its just rolls off the finger tips. -DESTINY-

Much better than "idiots" . I guess idiots is actually a pretty standard word for someone like yourself. Cool usage kip. Nice, I guess.

You also can stay mad that your y2k term slightly means something else today.

"PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

"Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

No such thing as MMO-lite. It makes literally no sense. Less than massively-multiplayer is multiplayer. If a game isn't massively multiplayer, it isn't an MMO. That is pretty clear.

Just because some idiots who don't know what the acronym stands for want to make it mean something else doesn't mean its right. There is literally no disputing what MMO means as its in the words. Its like starting to pretend that Large is also Medium. Its stupid.

How can OP feel they can argue what MMO stands for when they make a statement like "MMO features"... .there are no "MMO features" as the only FEATURE MMO stands for is the fact its a massive amount of people playing together online. OP is probably trying to apply the standardized features of an MMORPG to the rules. OP needs to learn what MMO actually means. MMORPG is a genre that includes persistence, leveling, character development and all that. MMO is just the descriptor to the RPG part that tries in desperation to explain to OP that it is only stating its an MMO variant.

MMORPG have always been multiplayer, online server based, persistent world, character advancement. A MMO lite has all of this. It just doesn't have a lot of players. It is small scale but plays like a MMO.

Massively Multiplayer is a vague term that requires outside defining to define. It is like saying something is massively orange. One person says it has to be 75% orange, another say 51% orange and another dark orange. What counts as dark orange?

You must go back to the original person who created to term to get clarification. Oh it means 500 people in a multiplayer. This game has 499 on a server and plays exactly the same is not. Yet this game is a matched based 500 player MOBA that plays nothing like traditional MMO is?