TESTIMONY OF PHILIP KLINGENSMITH IN THE
FIRST TRIAL OF JOHN D. LEE
July 23-24, 1875

Prosecution:
Where did you reside in 1857?

Witness:
At CedarCity.

Q: How
long had you previously resided there?

A: I
believe from '52 - '51 or '52.

Q: Do you
know where the Mountain Meadows are located?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: Describe
to the jury where the Mountain Meadows are located.

A: Located
about 45 miles (between that and 50) from CedarCity
on the old California Road.

Q: In what
county?

A: Now,
in WashingtonCounty.
Then, in Iron.

Q: In
what territory?

A: In UtahTerritory.

Q:
Are you acquainted with John
D. Lee?

A: I
am.

Q: Were
you acquainted with him in 1857?

A: At
what time?

Q: In
1857.

A: Yes,
sir. I was there at the massacre.

Q: I want you to state to the jury what you
know in
relation to the massacre­ and about what time it was.

A: As near as I can recollect, it was in
September. I
can't tell you the day or the date. I think it was toward the
last-probably
about the middle.

Q: That year was
it?

A: It was in '57.

Q: Won't you relate to the jury the
circumstances, as
you know them, in relation to the massacre of which you speak. Just
commence in
your own way and relate the circumstances.

A: The first that I know of the company
coming in?

Q: Yes, sir,

Defense counsel:
We suggest that
a more limited question be put to the witness.

Prosecution:
State what you know
about it.

Defense:
[He] can't give any testimony except about John D. Lee.

Prosecution:
Go on and state the details.

Defense:
If he goes on and narrates in his own way, we will have no chance to
object
until the objectionable matter has gone to the jury.

Prosecution:
It is the first time in the progress of the trial that the defendant
has attempted
to direct the manner of the prosecution.

Judge-to the
witness: Don't
detail any hearsay matter.

Prosecution:
Go on, and state what you know of that massacre, and who were engaged
ill it,
but don't state any hearsay testimony.

Witness: I will as far as I know. The first
thing I
shall mention is when I heard of this company coming from Salt Lake. I
heard of
the emi­grants coming down here, and learned that the people were
forbidden to
trade with them; that there was a great deal of feeling some way or
other, and
it made me feel, to tell the truth, bad about it when I heard it.
Finally the
company came on to Cedar City and I happened to be down at the little
town.
There is about a mile dif­ference between the two towns. I didn't
at first see
but a few of them-three or four at the mill getting a grist down of
some wheat
they had bought from Mr. Jackson. I went on up home to the upper city.
This was
probably-might have been-Friday. I heard there was some disturbance
through the
emigrants swearing in town. And I heard that John M. Higbee had fined
them.

Defense: We don’t
want that
hearsay.

Witness: However, let that go as it will, it
don't
make much difference here nor there. This, I think, was about Friday -
if I
remember it must have been about Friday, to the nearest of my
recollection.
This company went on from there, and I still heard rumors that I shall
not say
anything about, now. On Sunday, as was the usual custom of having
meetings -
and President and Council, High Council,

Bishop's Council- all the afternoon, and
talking
things and matters over. And directly when the Council met, this thing
came up.

Q: I will
ask you if you held any position, and if so, what?

A: I was
not in any mil­itary order. I was a Bishop.

Defense: We object to the statement about the
council.
That is a matter between other parties. Unless the question is put in
another
form, we object to it.

Prosecution: We
will connect it.

Judge: They
propose to connect
the question with it.

Defense: This is not a charge of combination
[conspiracy]: John D. Lee is charged with murder, not with combining
with
a1lybody. If Mr. Lee was not there, it is incompetent. It is your duty
to
connect him with it. Unless you can show that John D. Lee was one of
that
Council, the statement of the proceeding of that Council is
incompetent.

Judge: Either party can commence either at
the beginning
or middle or end of their testimony. It is a rule I have been used to
for many
years, and I think it is the best rule. They promised to connect the
defendant
with this. If they don’t, the Court will have to strike it out.

Defense:
Your Honor will please note our exception to that ruling, until it
appears that
John D. Lee was a member of that Council, or was present.

Prosecution: Go
on and state what
took place at that Council.

Witness:
This question of those emigrants, and their destruction, came before us
at that
time; and there was ...

Q: Of whom was that Council composed?

A: Haight, Higbee, myself - I could not tell
all the
names of them; Morill was there, Ira Allen, and Wesley Willis I think
was
there.

Q: What
is Haight's full name?

A: His
first name is Isaac C. Haight.

Q: What occurred?

A: This
thing was talked over.

Defense:
We object to that question. Now, it appears affirmatively that John D.
Lee was
not there; and he is not connecting him with it.

Judge: On the
same ground that
they have promised to connect, they may do it by some other witness.

Defense:
Exception.

Prosecution: Go
on and state what
happened there.

Witness: This question came up and there was
some of
the brethren opposed to such a proposition - and when it came to my
turn, I
opposed it. There were others that were opposed to it, too. Haight
jumped up
and broke up the meeting, and went outdoors. Then a proposition was
made there.
The question I asked them was this: what would be the consequences
provided
such a thing should take place.

Q: What did they
propose to do?

A: They didn't
propose to do
anything particular when this thing was talked about.

Q: What was said?

A:
I have stated all that I can
remember.

Q: What
was the substance of what was said?

A: It
was their- the substance was for their destruction, and I opposed it.

Q: For their destruction by whom?

A: Their destruction was proposed by the
Indians. I
cannot say positively that the whites were going to do it from there.
Then the
meeting broke up, and on Monday morning, down below the old fort wall
there was
several of us met together, again.

Q: Who?

A: Isaac C. Haight, Higbee, myself, Joel
White, and I
don't recollect anyone else. The talk came up again about these
emigrants
coming. There they were not yet at Cedar. I got onto the same subject
again,
and opposed it, and asked questions about it, and said for my part I
would like
to see these people go through unmolested. Haight then replied, "you
may
go with Mr. White over to Pinto Creek [a small settlement close to
Mountain
Meadows] with a letter and tell the people there that these people
shall [be
allowed to] go through, and try and pacify the Indians - for that
people to go
through." That is all.

Q: Did you
go over there?

A: I
did. I went over there. I started in the afternoon.

Q: Who
accompanied you?

A: Joel
White went with me. We started in the afternoon, and met John D. Lee
down at
the lower end of the field. Probably two and a half miles from town.
Lee asked,
"Where are you going?" White replied, "We are going to see that
these people go through unmolested." He [Lee] said, "I have something
to say in that matter, and I will see to it." We made no reply. We went
on. He went to Cedar. I knew not anything more of him till afterwards.

Q: Was that all he said at the time?

A: It was all he said at that time. Now,
then, I went
out that evening and got there in the night-past these emi­grant's
company at
Iron Springs, five mile outside of Pinto Creek. And the next morning as
they were
drawing out from camp, we passed back and went on our way together back
to
Cedar.

Q: How
many of the emigrants were there?

A: I
never counted them. There was a good many.

Q: Of what
class?

A: I
should suppose the train composed of twenty or thirty wagons.

Q: About how many
people?

A: I could not
tell you.

Q: Approximate.

A: It
appears as though there was a hundred or more.

Q: How
was it with reference to sex and age?

A: There
was old men, middle aged men, old women, young women and children.

Q: After you passed them, state what
occurred.

A: I came on towards home and met a man named
Ira
Allen, beyond where we met Lee about four miles. That was the day
following. We
didn't know what was up, and Ira Allen stated right out...

Defense:
Objection.

Prosecution: We
will connect Mr.
Allen as one of the conspirators in this affair.

Judge:
Go ahead, the objection is overturned.

Defense:
Note our exception.

Q: Go on,
state what occurred.

A: He
said that the doom of the emigrants that went out there was sealed,
that the
die was cast, the doom fixed for their destruction, that John D. Lee
had orders
from headquarters at Parowan to take men - go around below and go out.
He had
orders to go to Pinto Creek and countermand what I and Mr. White had
been to
Pinto Creek and tried to do.

Q: What else was
done, then?

A:
I know nothing more about it.
I went home.

White lived in the lower town, and I went up
to my
place pretty fatigued from riding. I don't know anything more about
what was
going on. Only about rumors, until about three days afterwards. Then
Haight,
living over at the iron works in a little house, sent down McFarlane
there to
me, to come over there. I went over behind his house. He there told me
this
story.

Defense:
We object to anything Mr. Haight may have told this witness.

Judge:
Overruled.

Defense:
Defendants take
exception.

Witness:
He told me there was
orders came in from camp last night.Says
he, "They hadn't got along as they anticipated, and the news came in to
me
for reinforcements, and I immediately went over to Parowan and there
got
further orders what to do."

Q: Did he say who gave these orders?

A: Yes, sir. I will say, by and by. He said
he came
home in the night with these orders from Co!. Dame that in order to
finish the
massacre they was to decoy them out and to spare nothing but the small
children
that could not tell the tale. That is what he told me. I went down to
the old
town then directly. He told me to go down there, and I happened to come
right
in front of Ira Allen's house. There, John M. Higbee, Ira Allen, and
Charlie
Hopkins were right in front of his dooryard. And as I stepped up, John
Higbee
says, "You are ordered out armed, and equipped as the law directs, to
go
to the Mountain Meadows." And so I went.

Defense: If you’re Honor please, this is
another party
that the witness has brought in, and makes statements of John M. Higbee
that
are not connect­ed with Mr. Lee.

Judge: I
will overrule the objections on the same grounds as before.

Defense:
Exception.

Witness:
I went and fitted up, got my animal and gun and ammuni­tion and
went out.

Q: Who went with
you?

A: Charlie
Hopkins went out with
me, and John M. Higbee, and I think possibly that John Willis went with
a wagon
and Sam McMurdy with a baggage wagon.

Q: Where did you go to?

A: We started-the rest I cannot remember. We
start­ed
over there, and when we got to Hamblin's ranch in the night-sometime in
the
night-I don't exactly recollect ...

Q: Jacob Hamblin's?

A: Yes, sir. The ranch was about three miles
this side
of where the emigrants were camped. Well, there was Lee and some
others-not a
great many from the camp, where the general camp was, passed up
further, by a.
spring. When this party that had gone out from Cedar, they composed
quite a
little number of men. Then we began to find out that they [the
emigrants] was
not all killed, as it was represented, while there was a few more ...

Defense: We
object to the
statement of individuals.

Prosecution: Who do you mean by some?

A: Those that I mentioned. I can mention some
names
that was there. There was John D. Lee, John M. Higbee, myself - there
was
Hopkins, Ira Allen, and there was another man, died since, Wiley. I
don't
recollect anybody else. Lee called us out to one side ...

Q: Was
George Adair there?

A: I don't think
he was, I cannot say.

Q: Was
William C. Stewart?

Defense: Objected
to as leading.

Witness:
They were not at this place. What I was going to refer to ...

Q: Go on
and explain to the jury what place you refer to.

A: He
called us out, these names, a little to one side and we had a
consultation
about the instructions that carne through Higbee to him from Col. Dame
at
Parowan.

Q:
A little to one side of what?

A: Of the ranch.

Q: You speak of a branch of the brethren?

A: They might have been ten
or fif­teen rods from the
rest, up in the mouth of the little wash; there Lee stated the
circumstances of
the situation-and that the emigrant train ...

Q: Relate what he stated, as near as you can
remember.

A: He stated they had strong
fortifications; that
there was no possible chance to get them out that he knew of. Then
Higbee,
having orders, says, "Orders is from me to you that they are to be
decoyed
out and disarmed, got out in any manner the best way you can." There it
was agreed upon and the command was given to John D. Lee to carry out
the whole
scheme. I suppose before that Higbee had the authority, but I found out
it
belonged to Lee.

Q: What was done then?

A: We went back, and the orders was to go up
to the
springs where the Indians and these southern soldiers were camped. At
the
spring, a way off, this side of the ground.

Q: What do you mean by these soldiers?

A: White men - southern [Utah]
sol­diers-those that
carne from Washington County and around, so far as I know. Directly
after we
got up there, Lee called them into a hollow square and there talked to
them -
to the soldiers that were there; but I don't remember all that were
there.

Q: How, and of whom, was that hollow square
formed?

A: It was formed of white men, but I could
not give
the names of the persons, with the excep­tion of a few.

Q: About
how many in nll1nber?

A: I
should judge there was fifty, so far as I recollect.

Q: Was
there any Indians in that hollow square?

A: There
wasn't in that hollow square. The Indians were off somewhere else.

Q: Give the names of as many persons in that
square, of
that soldiers, as you can remember - composing that soldier.

A: I could not remember all of their names. I
recollect some I noticed there. There was Mr. Slade. I was not in the
square. I
went off from what I was telling you, just to tell something I wanted.

Q: You can go back to that.

A: I noticed there Slade and I think his son;
and I
think Jim Pearce and brother, and his sons, but I would not be
pos­itive. But
he recognized me. I'd done business with him.

Q: Can
you remember any others?

A: I
remember those I have mentioned before, from Cedar, and some other ones
was
there.

Q: Was
George Adair there?

A: I
could not say positively that he was or was not - only by rumor.

Q:
Was William Stewart there?

A: Mr. Stewart
was there.

Q: State
as many others, if you remember others.

A: There
was Swen Jacobs, was up there.

Q: Was John
Willis there?

A: He was down at
the Hamblin
ranch, but whether he was out there or not I could not say.

Q: Was Dan McFarlane there?

A: I would not be positive whether he was on
the
ground or not; it seems to run in my mind that he was, but I would not
be positive.
We stepped to one side out of the hollow square - that was myself and
old man
Slade - we stepped to one side up above the hollow square and talked
the matter
over, and the horrible thing that we were about to enter into. He had
some
feelings, and I had, that ran contrary to our natural feelings. Says I,
"What can we do, how can we help ourselves?" Says he, "We
can't." And directly, an order was given to march down, and we with the
rest went along.

Q: How far from the hollow square was the
immigrants?

A: Probably a mile and a quarter to a mile
and a half.
Don't think it's more than a mile and a half. There we were put into
double
file, by the orders that came. And John M. Higbee took command of that
portion.
With his other officers under him in that organization.

Q: Go on and state what
kil1d of all
organization it
was.

A: It was an organization that was called the
Nauvoo
Legion that is organized from ten up to hundreds.

Q: Go on and state what was done.

A: There we halted, probably between a
quarter and a
half a mile this side of the encampment of these emi­grants in
sight. And
someone went out with a flag of truce.

Q: Did you know who?

A: I could not tell you whether it was John
D. Lee, or
William Bateman; whoever it was, they came back after a
commu­nication with
some man who came out and met them-came out from the emigrant
encampment. John
went down there, and that man and John D. Lee sat down and had a long
talk with
the man that came out of the emigrant camp to meet the flag of truce.
It was
two hundred yards, maybe a little more, from the camp in the
val­ley. What he
said to that man or to that people, I know not, only as I saw the plot
carried
out that came from Haight to him from Parowan - John M. Higbee to him.

Q: Then what occurred?

A: Lee went down with that man to the camp in
their
entrenchment. There a wagon came that was up there some time. I don't
know how
many hours before anyone came out.

Prosecution:
May it please your Honor, this testimony is very important. I see that
one of
the jurors seems to be napping.

Judge:
They are all wide awake.

Q: Go on from where you left off.

A: Well, after some time, after standing in
the ranks
there some time-well, probably, in all, three or four hours ­Lee
was down at
their encampment and stayed there until he brought the emigrants out.

Q: How long was he there?

A: I have just
stated, three or four hours before he came out. After he came up, it
was
understood [according to the] command given from Higbee to us, that Lee
got, [that
was] put up in the start, in the morning, that wherever this company,
women to
be led ahead, after the first two baggage wagons, and the lame and the
children
were mostly in them. Women were led ahead. Those that had been wounded
in the
previous attacks, three days before, which I knew nothing about.

Q: Tell what
occurred then.

Defense: Objected
to for the same
reason as before - that a witness cannot tell what he didn't see.

Judge:
Motion overruled. Defense: Exception.

Prosecution:
Did you hear Lee say anything about any previous attack?

Witness:
Yes, sir. I heard him say that morning that they had been attacked and
could
not be routed.

Q: Attacked
by whom?

A: By
the Mormons who went out with the Indians.

Q: Well,
go on from that point - where you were before - when Higbee was
giv­ing the
orders.

A: Well,
we were to march along a little ways with this people along side of us,
and
when the word "halt" came, we were to fire. Every man fired as far as
I know. Whether I did or not, I can't tell.

Q: Describe the order.

A: The women walked behind
the baggage wagons on the
main road. They were ahead of all the company of men - the women was.
After
they came up from their encampment and passed us, a kind of halt took
place
there, and the women and bag­gage wagons went on ahead. And John D.
Lee went
ahead with them.

Q:
The women, were they following
after?

A: As far as I
recollect, every
one of them.

Q: Describe how
they were. State how
they were with reference to each other.

A: They were
marching up ahead of
the men, behind these wagons. They went on around toward the summit,
where
there is a bend. When I heard the word "fire!" I went up there and
saw them laying along there.

Q: In what condition?

A: I found them in almost
every condition; some with
their throats cut, some heads smashed, some shot. That is the way it
looked to
me.

Q: Did you see any children there?

A: I didn't see any in the body of where they
were
massacred. I saw a young girl that was probably seven or eight years
old-somebody killed her. I could not tell who killed her. I did not see
it.

Q: You say
somebody killed her.

A:
I did.

Q: Do you know who it was?

A: No, it was a kind of dusk, and I did not
see it.

Q: Where were the men of the
train- the emigrants that
were killed?

A: Behind, probably two or three hundred
yards.

Q: How were they
killed?

A: They were
shot.

Q: By
whom?

A: By
those that shot them - this company that I have described.

Q: In what order did they
march out?

A: I did-I think-describe it
when I spoke of the men
that was massacred. In double file, as near as I can recollect. And
probably,
they were thrown into single file before the word was given, "fire!"

Q: By whom were they
accompanied, or rather, marched
out?

A: I could not
rec­ollect all these things; there was
a kind of a dumbfustication in my mind. They were accompanied by Lee,
at the
head of the wagon. I don't remember anybody else.

Q: Do
you know who gave the order to fire?

A: John
M. Higbee gave the orders.

Q:
Where was Lee when this firing was done?

A: With
the women on ahead, when they were slaughtered.

Q:
Had he any arms on his person?

A: I
presume he had.

Q: What
is your remembrance of it?

A: I
could not say at that time, because I could not hear him in action.

Q: Did
you see any at all?

A: He
carried his fire arms like any other man did.

Q: What
sort of arms were the balance of these soldiers armed with?

A: They
were armed with revolvers, United States Yaugers, and such guns as
set­tlers
generally have through this Territory. Some revolvers, yaugers, shot
guns and
so forth.

Q:
State how many men were killed there?

A: I
could not tell you positively.

Q: Well,
about how many?

A: I
suppose there were fifty. There might have been more, because I never
counted
them. I only know by hearsay afterwards, at different times.

Q: Do
you know whether any escaped or not?

A: None
got away as far as I rec­ollect. None escaped from there.

Q: Did yon see anyone of them attempting to
escape?

A: I did. I saw some men on
horses, for the purpose to
take these in the wings that might run away-that might not have been
killed-not
fired upon by the first shot. I saw a man running across from the
firing. I saw
Bill Stewart going after him on a horse, and I suppose - I think as far
as I
can recollect that he shot him there, of course.

Defense:
Objection to what the witness supposes.

Prosecution
State what was done about that time.

Witness: I was
told to take
charge of the children at that time.

Q:
You saw the man, Stewart,
going after a mall?

A:
I think I saw the man fall. It
must be so, in my mind, because he didn't go far.

Q: What
else?

A: I
didn't see any other man. I saw Ira Allen -on the left wing on
horseback, and
that is all I remember of that.

Q: You spoke of
some men being in
the wagons. What was done with them?

A: When I got up to the wagons - I shall tell
you now
how I got there. I was told, after I had made a fire, to go and take
charge of
the lit­tle children-to gather them up and take charge of them.

Q: Let me call your attention, again, to the
order in
which the men marc1zed out of corral. What position did the soldiers
occupy to
them as they marched out?

A: They didn't occupy any till the soldiers
came up.
That is where the soldiers were stationed.

Q: Describe to the jury; how the soldiers
were
stationed, and how the other men were marched up.

A: I will state again, as I have, they were
marched up
there in single or double file, behind the women and the baggage
wagons, and
came up to where we was in a bend - probably a quar­ter of a mile
or so. I
can't tell, exactly.

Q: How were you
located?

A: I
was in the ranks with the balance.

Q: In single or double file?

A: I think we were in double
file; I would
not be
positive. It appears to me so today. The emigrants came up, and the
women and
the baggage wagon a little ways ahead. We marched with them probably a
hundred
or two hundred yards on the right side of them. They came up on the
left till
they came to this place where they were killed, and the women was ahead
a
little ways.

Q: Please
explain how that was.

A: We
marched to the right side of them, while they kept to the left.

Q: Describe how each soldier was situated to
some
other man.

A: The soldiers were
commanded to be ready at
the
word, "halt," at a minute's warning - with his gun across his arm,
marching side by side with these emigrants.

Q: You say they were
marching with their guns
over
their arms. Describe the thing from that time.

A: These emigrants they were
protecting made
some
remarks of glad they was out. When the word, "halt," was given, that
was the word to fire. And then they were killed.

Q:
Did they all
fall at the first
shot?

A: No, sir. Some
ran away.

Q: What
was done with those that ran away?

A: The
one I saw running, he was killed.

Q: Did the greater portion of them fall the
first
shot? How were they killed?

A: I didn't see but one man killed - and that
man was
wounded a little and was lying on the ground. And John M. Higbee went
up to him
and drew his knife and cut his throat. This man begged for his life,
and he was
lying on the ground when that was done.

Q: How far from
the ranks was he
when that was done?

A:
Not more than
a rod. He said,
"Higbee, I wouldn't do this to you." He knew Higbee, it appears. And
the reply was that, "You would have done the same to me, or just as
bad." At that time, I went away. I will state here one thing further in
that respect-that one large woman about that time came running down
from the
women and hollering for her husband and children, as I recollect, and
some man
on the left of me shot her in the back, and she fell dead and did not
move. Who
it was, I do not know. That was the only woman that I saw down there
that was
shot.

Q: After
the killing was ended, what was done then?

A: There
I was told by Higbee to take charge of the children and the baggage
wagons.

Q: By whom?

A:
By Higbee, my
commander.

Q: What
did you do?

A: I went
up there and took charge of them. These men, they were killed and out
of the
wagons before I got there.

Q: Who killed
them?

A:
I know not,
only by rumor.

Q: Won't you designate who you mean by "these
men" - those men who were killed in the first attack in their
fortifications?

A: These men that were with the baggage
wagons.

Q: When
the wagon passed your ranks, who was with them?

A: Lee
was with them, and ahead of the man that drove the wagon.

Q: Was he
in the wagon, or on the ground?

A: I do
not know-could not say whether he was in the wagon or not.

Q: What occurred when you went up to take
charge of
the children?

A: When I went up there, I don't recollect
seeing Lee.
They had a team there­.Me, Murdy and
I
think Sam Knight, from the Clara was up with their wagons-and these
children
with some of the things was put into these wagons. And we went down to
Hamblin's house. And that is the end of my knowing or seeing anything
more
there.

Q: Well, what were the soldiers doing there?

A: They dispersed - going south to Cedar and
some to
Hamblin's ranch. I don't recollect of seeing any­body else from the
southern
districts except Knight.

Q: Did you
see John D. Lee after you started away with these children?

A: I did.

Q: Where?

A: I saw
him there.

Q: Did you
have any conversation with him?

A: I did not
have any conversation with him.

Q: What
was he doing up to that time?

A: I could not
tell you, because I went
immediately - went away and could not recognize any particular thing
that he
did.

Q: I want you to go on from that point and
state what
was done, and how these men were dispersed.

A: I don't know how they were dispersed; I
left there
as I told you, with the children and the wagons. I had my hands full.
Some of
the children were wounded and crying.

Q: Some
of the children wounded? How many wounded?

A: I
think one died at Hamblin's ranch. I think there was two died, but one
died
there.

Q: Where
abouts were they wounded?

A: I
think that it was wounded in the arm - a bad wound - and one somewhere
else. I
could not tell exactly, and I know I had to leave it.

Q: Of what was the emigrant
train composed?
What kind
of train was it - mule train or ox train?

A: They had some mules. The
majority were
oxen­-ox
wagons. There were some mules and some horse teams.

Q: About
how many wagons had they?

A: I don't
recollect. I could not tell you. I
don't remember. I never was near enough to them to count them. I never
saw them
going away from the slaughter - know nothing about that. Consequently,
I could
not tell you how many there was.

Q: Do
you know how many cattle they had?

A: I
don't know how many cattle there were.

Q: About how many wagons? State as near as
you can.

A: I stated, I think, between twenty-five and
thirty,
when I passed them at Iron Springs.

Q: When you passed them at Iron Springs, did
you see
the stock they had when you passed them there?

A: There was a part there, and a part out.
They was
hunting some stock, and I cannot recollect only the teams; they were
hitched
up, ready to move on.

Q: How many cattle had they?

A: I can't recollect. Only
those teams that
was
hitched up, ready to move on. I could not see the cattle that was
below, yet.
They was away.

Q: After
this massacre, did you ever see any stock that belonged to that train?

A: I did.

Q:
Did you know
what was done
with them?

A: In part, I
did; and in part I
didn't know what was done with them.

Defense:
We object to this as immaterial.

Judge:
Objection overruled.

Defense:
Exception.

Prosecution
continues: What was done with these cattle?

A: As
regards what was done with them cattle, I don't know.

Q: Do you
know what was done with any of them?

A: I
know some. I would like to tell you a little farther, right from
Hamblin's.

Q: Go on then.

A: Well, the next morning I started with the
children
for Cedar City-I put them on Sam McMurdy's wagon and John Willis's
wagon, and
went on to Pinto Creek. And I think I left one little child there - one
that
was wounded; I left one or two there. Then I went home. I passed a
train from
San Bernardino. It was old Billy Matthews. I could not tell you who all
was in
from the fact that I didn't see them. We was off the road a little to
the
right, where there was water. They passed on while I was there. After
they was
gone, we went on to Cedar City. It was in the night before I got there.
I had
to stop there to get some water for the children. These men lived here
in
Beaver-most of them-these freight teams. Tanners, Matthews, and
Shepherds, I
think, and these old gentlemen, freighting at that time. I started on
at that
time, doing the best I could with the children - went on past them and
got
something to eat and drink, and went on and got to Cedar City in the
night. I
went to a place called Hopkins' Place. An old lady that was a
mid­wife there -
a motherly kind of woman who had midwifed around among the sisters
there - I
told her I had so many children got from that place. But I didn't tell
her any
particulars about it; though she perfectly well understood that,
because her
husband was in and out. She understood part of it, at least. There I
stopped
with these children and she rustled around and got places next day, and
I think
I took one home - I think I took one home or got it afterwards, I don't
know
which - a nice little baby girl, and my woman raised it-suckled it. And
afterwards that child was give to Birkbeck at Cedar City because they
had no
children. It was a babe at the breast.

Q: Do you know what became of its mother?

A: I
do not. I
never knew what became of its mother. I got them places around, of
course.
Every one good places-as soon as possible-as soon as I could. But as a
general
thing they were well treated as far as I know. I made it my business to
get
these children places where there was not many children. In that way I
disposed
of them around in different places. Who all had them, I could not tell.

Q: After you got back to
Cedar City, did you
ever meet
John D. Lee and have any conversation with him on the subject of what
occurred?

A: I don't recollect meeting with him after
that
occurred there - not at that place.

Q: When
did you first meet him after that?

A: I
met him in Salt Lake after.

Q: Did you
go to Salt Lake together?

A: No,
sir, we didn't go to Salt Lake together.

Q:
State what
occurred, if anything,
relative to this matter in Salt Lake City.

A: Previous
to this - you may call it hearsay - I could say what I heard Haight say
to John
M. Higbee.

Q: State
what Higbee and these parties you refer to said about this matter.

Defense:
We abject to that as hearsay, as to John D. Lee, and he is the only
party an
trial.

A: At
this point arguments were made on both sides.

Judge: Overruled.

Defense:
Exception.

Defense: I will make a
further objection to
the
question being answered, an the grounds that the indictment does not
warrant an
introduction of that character of testimony.

Judge:
Overruled.

Defense:
Exception.

Prosecution: Will you state now what
conversation,
after this massacre, you had with any of the parties. That is, you
refer to
Haight and Mr. Higbee, I believe - what conversation you had with them
in relation
to the disposition of the property belonging to that massacred train.

A: I would have to give a little further
detail to
come to that point.

Q: Be as brief
as you can, and amid any outside matters.

A: Sometime
after that-several days-Haight told me to go over to the Iron Springs
that is
about seven miles from Cedar City on the old emigrant road - that would
be in
the early days. He told me to go over there, that they had brought in
wagons,
cattle, and other things - goods and clothing-and was at Iron Springs.
And I
should go over there and get that property and put them into the
tithing office
cellar. I accordingly, went. And I also was to brand the cattle that
was there,
which was probably fifty head. I went, and there I saw John Urie and
George
Hunter, and I think if I mistake not, other men were there who helped
to get it
there - and Ira Allen. But I would not be positive about that. However,
these
two men was there, with a number of wagons. I could not tell you now
the
number, but I pre­sume the bigger part of them.

Q: Tell
what you know.

A: I
was there. Three men were engaged in it- pick­ing it up at the
place of the
emigrant encampment. They took the wagons away, brought the cattle, and
drawed
them to that spring. I accordingly went under these order and brought
it from
there in the evening and put it in the tithing office cellar - all the
tarps
and clothing and such like that was among the company that got there
from the
place of the encampment at the Iron Springs. Hitched up some of the
cattle -
enough to draw these wagons over there. These wagons remained there
around the
tithing office and these goods remained there till afterwards, till a
different
disposition was made of them.

Q: What else was
done? You stated
a different disposition was made. State what that was.

A: After this
occurred, I branded
them with the Church brand.

Q: What sort of
brand was that?

A: With the
Church brand - a
cross.

Q: State what else was done. You said there
was another
disposition made.

A: I will now go back to another disposition.
I don't
recollect of but once see­ing Mr. Lee, and he was up there at Cedar
City and
was in that cellar with me, and saw these good in the cellar.
Afterwards, I had
no more conversation with him that I recollect till he went to Salt
Lake. I was
told by Haight and Higbee that they held a Council, and counseled
matters over.
I was not present.

Defense: We
object to witness detailing
as to matters that he did not hear.

Judge: Objection
overruled.

Defense:
Exception.

Witness:
And that
to divulge and
tell the circumstances and all about it was put upon John D. Lee.

Q:
For what
purpose?

A:
To
tell him [Brigham Young] from first to last
everything pertaining to that massacre. That is what was said. He went
ahead. I
don't know when he started, but he was ahead of me and Haight. We went
down to
the same Conference that fall. I suppose we started in the latter part
of
September.

Q:
What year was
that conference?

A:
The same year
that the
Massacre was the sixth of October.

Q: Then it was
the sixth of
October following then that you were at Salt Lake City there to that
conference?

A:
Yes, sir. I
was probably there
a day or two before.

Q:
Well, go on.

Defense: Objected to on the grounds that this
matter
is not charged in the indictment. There is no conspiracy charged with
Brigham
Young. This is entirely outside of the allegations and the indictment.
It is
immaterial and irrelevant.

Prosecution:
This
California case
was the same.

Judge:
Let me
hear the case cited
in the California report.

Prosecution: The question
was really thus:
that it was
at the sixth of October conference of the same year that the Massacre
occurred
that you went to Salt Lake City. That was the question.

Judge:
Objection overruled. Defense: Exception.

Prosecution:
Go on.

Witness: After I got to Salt
Lake City, I met
Mr. Lee.
I think on the east side of the Temple wall, and we had some talk about
it. I
asked him whether he had delivered that message which he was to deliver
to
Brigham Young. He said he had, verbatim, everything that
tran­spired. That is
what he told me.

Q: What else?

A: Then, probably the same day, or it might
be the day
after, but I think it was the same day, I and Mr. Lee, and Charlie
Hopkins went
to see President Young, and he went with us in his barnyard to one
place and
another and showed us his fine things, and we came back into his house,
and
there in my presence and Mr. Lee's and Mr. Hopkins', he turned around
to me, as
I had possession of that property. After doing this, says he, "Dispose
of
that property, let John D. Lee take charge of it."

Q: Who
said that?

A: Brigham
Young said that.

Defense:
We object to assertions of third parties. Judge: Objection overruled.

Defense:
Exception.

Witness: Next word was - he turned around to
us and
said, "What you know of this, say nothing about it: even don't talk
among
your­selves about it."

Q: Did you relate to him the circumstances?

A: I didn't tell him anything about it. He
turned to
Lee, as there had been this conversation, and it was the understanding-

Q: They
had a conversation, had they, before that?

A: Yes,
and Lee was to carry out the understanding.

Q: State,
if you know what disposition was made of that property.

A: After
we came home, I went - I went home I expect before Mr. Lee. I didn't
see him
anymore, that I recollect, for some time. After I got home, I was
called on to
go down to the Vegas, to the lead mines with some teams to get a load
of are,
as I had been one of the discoverers of the Potosi mines in early days.
And so,
three teams of us went. While I was gone, Lee - I'm only telling this
now as it
was told to me, I know nothing about it only as t was told - there is
other
witnesses who will tell.

Q: Were you told by Higbee,
or any of these
persons?

A: I had a conversation with Higbee and
Haight. It was
turned over to him to take charge of it; and while I was gone they had
an
auction, and it was sold.

Q: Do you know what was done with the cattle?

A: I don't know; only those that went to Salt
Lake.
Haight had charge of them, and traded them to Mr. Hooper for boots and
shoes,
which went to Cedar City.

Q: Who?
Which Mr. Hooper?

A: That
man that was generally the Representative from Utah to Congress.

Q: How
many cattle were disposed of in that way?

A: I
presume forty or fifty head was sold.

Q:
What was done
with the stock
of goods got by these cattle?

A: I never knew.
When I came
back, these goods were all gone. Some few good boots that I saw, I
traded wheat
for them-there was some few boots left.

Q: Who did
I understand you to say, told you of tile disposition of this
proper­ty?

A: Haight
and Higbee told me all about it.

Q: Were there any
Indians present
at that massacre?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many?

A: I could not tell you, but the hills were
pretty
full around there, and they done the massacring of the women,
generally. I
understood they were to accomplish it. I saw one man cut a little boy's
throat
with a knife just as I left the ranks to take charge of the children. I
also
saw others-a good many, but could not tell the names - but afterward I
heard of
them.

Q: Did you see or hear of any remonstrances
or efforts
to restrain the Indians there?

A: I did not. I
understood at the time that Carl Shirts had a kind of charge of them,
and kept
them in the brush.

Defense:
We object to this as hearsay.

No
ruling by the court.

Prosecution:
Did you hear anything said on the subject of the Indians on the ground
here?

A: I did
not.

Q: Were you ever
told what part
they took in it by any who were e1lgaged in it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Were
any of the Indians wounded there?

A: Yes,
sir. Three wounded that I know of.

Q: What
was done with them?

A: Two
died afterwards, of their wounds.

Q: After
the massacre, where did the Indians go to?

A: Over
to Cedar City, where they were from. They were both chiefs. One was
named Bill,
and the other Tom.

Q: How near to the town did
they come?

A: They came back of the
town - that is
probably from
where I lived a half of a mile in. That is, no doubt, near the cedar
field.

Q: How long did
they remain
there?

A: They remained
there a
considerable length of time.

Q: Did
you see any property of emigrants in their possession?

A: I
saw a wagon cover that they had, and that they'd put around their
wikiups.

Q: Did
you see any clothes?

A: I
did. I saw some clothing in the possession of the Indians, but I could
not tell
you how much.

Q: Won't you describe the
looks and
appearance of the
clothes?

A: That would be a hard matter to do. In
general, the
clothing were a kind of home made men's wear.

Q: Was
there anything peculiar on the clothes or about them?

A: Nothing
very peculiar that I recollect.

Q: Was
there any bullet holes in them - in any of them?

A: I
could not tell.

Q: Was
there any blood stains on them?

A: Yes,
there was, I believe, but I could not tell you as regards to that, of
the
Indians.

Q: What
kind of clothes did John D. Lee wear when he went to Salt Lake City?

A: I believe he
had a checked shirt on.

Q: Did
he have any coat?

A: I
presume he had. I didn't notice him.

Q: Did
you ever see him with a coat?

A: Yes.

Q: A
coat down there?

A: Of
course.

Q: Do you know
where he got it?

A: I
don't know where he got the coat?

Q: Did
you ever see John D. Lee in possession of any clothing that came from
that
train- and if so, what?

A: I
did.

Q: What?

A: I
saw him get
some dresses and some jeans, in
the cellar.

Q: And
what did he do with them?

A: I
don't know, but he took them away.

Q: Was
there anything said what he was to do with them?

A: He
said he wanted it for some clothing. That is what he said.

Q: I
wish to call your attention, again, to the Indians. State if you know
anything
in relation to their participation in that massacre. Tell what you know
al10ut
it - if you know how they came to participate in it.

A: I
don't, only by the stories that Mr. Allen brought to me-that Mr. Allen
brought
to me and Joel White when he met us. He said it was-

Defense:
We
object.

Judge:
Objection overruled.

Defense:
Exception.

Witness: Allen told us, as
he came up, that
he was to
go out there to Pinto Creek, and that John D. Lee had his order to go
around
below and gather up the Indians; and that he was to go around and
destroy that
company. That is what he told me. I made no reply.

Q: Did you ever
have a conversation
with John D. Lee on that subject?

A: Yes, sir. I
had a conversation
about it afterwards.

Q: That was it?

A: I don't recollect the conversation about
it,
because there was not much said about it at any time; there was very
little
talk at any time. But I knew the thing was done.

Q: State, if you can
remember any
conversation you had
with him about it - if you can state it.

A: I don't remember anything
that would lead
to any­thing
more particular about it.

Q: Was
there any person in control of the Indians there, and in command open
them?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q:
Who?

A:
Carl
Shirts was interpreter. He had command of
them.

Q: Do
you know what connection, if any, Mr. Lee had with the Indians?

A: He
was Agent at Harmony, so far as I understood it.

Q: As Agent, what duties did
he l1e1foml?

A: The Agent had the
privilege of trading
with the
Indians, and to issue out anything, according to the laws of the United
States,
and to trade them ammunition or anything.

Prosecution:
Do you know the names of any persons that were killed at the mountain
Meadows?

Witness:
I do
not.

Q: How long, did you state,
that John D. Lee
remain in
consultation with the party he met from the emigrant camp, when he
carried the
flag of truce, or when it was carried?

A: I could not
say; it was an hour or two, as far as I can recollect.

Q: Did you have any conversation with John D.
Lee as
to what occurred between him and the emigrants in that consultation?

A: No, sir. Not that I recollect.

Q: Never
talked with him about that subject?

A: If
I did, it slipped my mind.

Q: On
that occasion?

A: Not
that I recollect of.

Q: Did you ever have any conversation with
him subsequent
to the massacre, as to what occurred during his communications with the
emigrants at the time he was there - that is, after the Massacre
occurred - did
you ever have any conversation with John D. Lee as to what happened
between
them when he was in there?

A: I have had a talk with him, but to
recol­lect what
he said about it I could not remember.

Q: Who was the Commander of the Nauvoo
Legion for
southern Utah? Who was the General Commander?

A: I always understood that George A. Smith
was the
General Commander.

Q: Who was the local
commander down there -
the commander
from your county who was the commander of the forces that were on the
ground
there?

A: On the ground, Lee was
the Commander.

Q: Who was the Commander of the Nauvoo
forces, of
which that was a part, for Iron County?

A: Dame was the Colonel of that organization
down from
there.

Q: Who was the Lieutenant
Colonel?

A: Isaac C. Haight.

Q: Did Higbee have any position?

A: Yes, he was major.

Q: Was
George A. Smith down there about that time?

A: Not
that I recollect. I didn't see him.

Q: Do you
remember before this
occurrence?

A:
Not
to my knowledge.

Q: Do you know whether any of these orders
which led
to that massacre emanat­ed from George A. Smith? And, if so, what
it was?

A: No, sir. Not that I know about.

Defense:
Witness stated that it was understood that George A. Smith was
Commander; that
being hearsay, we ask to have it stricken out.

Prosecution:
Do you know who was the General Commander?

A: I
know that George A. Smith was the General Commander of that Iron
County, at
that time, from the beginning of it until the time I left Iron County .

Defense: We ask also that it 11e stricken out
- the
testimony as to wl11lt took place in the two conferences prior to the
Massacre,
when Lee was not pres­ent. [Prosecuting] counsel undertook to
connect Lee with
it, and Lee has not been connected with it.

Judge:
I think that is a part and parcel of the whole transaction. Motion
overruled.

Defense:
Exception.

Cross-examination

[This ends Phillip Klingensmith's testimony
for the
prosecution. Wm. W. Bishop began the cross-examination of
Klingensmith for
the
defense. Portions of the cross-examination, which is long and sometimes
repetitious, are omitted.]

Defense:
Mr.
[Klingen]Smith, how
old are You?

Klingensmith:
I believe I'm going on sixty-one. I was born in '15, I understand the
third of
April.

Q: Where were you
born?

A:
Pennsylvania.

Q: How long did
you reside in Pennsylvania
after your birth?

A: I guess I was
about
twenty-three or twenty-four years old.

Q: Where did you
remove to from
Pennsylvania?

A:
Indiana.

Q: How long did
you remain there?

A: Maybe,
four, maybe five years.

Q: Where
did you go, next?

A: I moved to
Michigan and from there to Nauvoo.

Q:
What year did
you go to Nauvoo
in?

A: In forty-four,
I believe.

Q: How
long did you remain in Nauvoo?

A: Till
about forty-six, when the Mormons left Nauvoo.

Q: After
leaving Nauvoo, where did you go to?

A: I went to
Garden Grove, and stopped a while in
Iowa, and I remained there about a year.

Q: From there,
where did you go?

A: Council
Bluffs.

Q: How long did
you remain there?

A:
I think I
remained in that
country somewhere about a year.

Q: Where
did you go from Council Bluffs?

A: I came
to Salt Lake.

Q: When
did you arrive in Salt Lake?

A: In
forty-nine.

Q: What month?

A: August.

Q: How long did you remain in Salt Lake?

A: I remained there probably three months;
not all the
time in Salt Lake; I lived in Salt Lake, I had a lot there.

Q:
Where did you
go from there?

A: Sanpete, in
the year
forty-nine.

Q: How
long did you remain in Sanpete?

A: I was there
to make two crops.

Q: Where
did you go next?

A: I came down
here, to Parowan.

Q: How
long did you remain in Parowan?

A: I
remained there one winter till next spring, and the same year.

Q: Where did you
go from there?

A:
Cedar
City-or Cedar Fort, then.

Q: What year did
you settle there
in Cedar City?

A:
I think it was
in fifty-two.

Q: How long did you make that your home?

A: I remained there some eight or nine years,
in all,
until a year after this affair took place, when I left there.

Q:
You lived
there till fifty-eight?

A: Yes, sir.

Q:
Did you live
there in
fifty-eight?

A: I think it
must have been
fifty-nine when I left there.

Q:
Where did you
go, then?

A: I went to a
little town over
the mountains, Toquerville.

Q: How
long did you remain there?

A: Not
very long, at that time.

Q: Where
did you go from Toquerville?

A: To
this place.

Q: How long did
you remain here?

A: A year and a
half.

Q:
Where did you
go from here?

A:
Back on the
Virgin.

Q:
How long
there?

A:
Two years, I
think.

Q: After that,
where did you go?

A: I came back to
Toquerville
again, and lived there a little while.

Q: How long at
Toquerville?

A: Oh,
the last time about six months.

Q: Where did you
next settle?

A: I went up on
the ranch, then,
east from there on the bench country.

Q: How
long did you remain on that ranch?

A: I
think about one year.

Q: Where
did you go next?

A: I
moved to Parowan.

Q: How
long did you remain in Parowan at that time.

A: I
think I stayed there a year, probably.

Q: Where did you
go next?

A: I moved to the
Muddy [River],
when the settle­ments was made on the Muddy.

Q: In what year
did you settle on
the Muddy?

A:
Must have
been-I could not
tell exactly - in about sixty-two or three, I think.

Q: How
long did you remain on the Muddy?

A: I
remained there to make two crops.

Q: How many crops
a year?

A: I went there
in May, and the
next season I left there on the fifteenth of April.

Q: Give the year
you left there
in.

A: I think it was
in sixty-five,
but I didn't keep a record.

Q: Where
did you go from the Muddy?

A: I moved to
Parowan.

Q: How
long did you remain in Parowan?

A: I
don't recollect.

Q: Then,
where did you move to?

A: Out
to Muddy Valley, where I live now.

Q: That
is in Lincoln County, Nevada?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q:
How long did
you reside in
Muddy Valley?

A: I
resided there a year, down on Wash Dam
Ranch.

Q: How far is that place
that you now reside
at from
the County Sent of Lincoln County?

A: Up to Pioche. We
generally call it
twenty-two
miles, maybe twenty-four.

Q: What
year did you settle at this place, that you call your present home?

A: I think
it was in seventy, if I mistake not.

Q: Do you refer
to the place
called Newman's Ranch as your home?

A: It is
generally known as Dutch
Flat.

Q: Twenty-two
miles from Pioche?

A: Yes,
sir. Or twenty-four.

Q: How
many years have you lived there?

A: Five
years.

Q: How
much of that time, during the last five years, have you been at that
place?

A: Half of it, probably; a part of the time I lived at Bullion.

Q: Where hope
you remained the other portion of the time?

A: Been
out prospect­ing and mining.

Q: You
say you went to Nauvoo in forty-four, and remained there until
forty-six?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: Then you describe how you got to Salt
Lake, and
various mopes at the time you left Salt Lake to go with the company
that were making
new settle­ments. Did you then hold any office in what is known as
the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

A: Yes, sir. I was an Elder, and belonged to
the
Seventies at that time, ordained in Nauvoo to that office - the ninth
quorum of
Seventies at the reorganization of the old stand.

Q: In
what year were you ordained?

A: In the
year I went there-in a month or so after I went there.

Q: When
you got to the settleme1lts, state whether you had any office in the
Church at
that place.

A: In Sanpete, I
had not.

Q: At
Cedar City, in the year fifty-seven, did you hold my office in the
Church then?

A: I was a
Bishop, there.

Q:
Of that place?

A: Of Cedar City.

Q: Did
you have any jurisdiction, as such Bishop, over any other settlements
than the
settlement of Cedar?

A: No,
sir.

Q: How long had you been Bishop at that point
in the
month of September fifty-seven?

A: From the day I had been made Bishop, until
this-I
could not tell without counting up.

Q: That
would be about how long?

A: Probably
six years, five or six, something like that it must have been.

Q: As Bishop of that Church, what was your
duty?

A: My duty as a Bishop was to act with the
temporal
affairs, and tithing, and lead out as a father among the people, making
fields
and water ditches, and such things. That was my duty, and I done it.

Q: Did you, as such Bishop, have the general
supervision of all temporal matters within your jurisdictions?

A: I had, of all temporal matters, under the
Presidency.

Q: Were
there any parties within your jurisdiction that had the right to
coun­termand
you orders?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q:
Who had that
power?

A:
The President,
Isaac C.
Haight.

Q: Aside
from him, in you’re giving an order, had any other person the right to
countermand
it?

A: Not
if I got it from him.

Q:
But, if you
gave an order of
your own volition?

A:I had not.

Q: If
you gave an order requesting them to do anything, could anyone step in
and
prevent this, except this President you speak of?

A: No,
sir.

Q: Was it customary for the people to meet
together
and decide upon any act without the consent of the Bishop or President?

A: No, sir. Not on any
temporal matters. It
was
customary for the President or Bishop to council matters and things
pertaining
to the people.

Q: As
Bishop, did you have any peers who were your advisors and counselors?

A: I
had.

Q:
Who occupied that position to you in fifty-seven?

A: James
Whitaker, Sr. and old Daddy Morris were my counselors.

Q: Where
did Isaac C. Haight reside at that time?

A: He
resided at Cedar City in upper town.

Q: You
say it was the custom of people to act as directed by the Councils?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: Did
they, at any time during the year fifty-seven, perform any act or acts
of a
temporal nature, without being first permitted to do so by the Bishop
and
Council?

A: No,
sir.

Q:
You say that
you heard that
the emigrants were coming?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: From whom did you obtain
that first
information?

A: I could not tell you; it
was the rumor
around. From
whom it first came I could not tell you.

Q: What was it that you first heard
concerning that
company of emigrants?

A: I heard that there was an emigrant train
coming
from Salt Lake, that was ordered out from there, and that they was
coming down
through the settlements, going to California.

Q: Who gave you that
information - try to
refresh your
memory.

A: I could not tell you
particularly, only it
was the
general thing understood by everybody. It had come along the way, and
it had
got out-you know.

Q: From
where had you heard that the people were forbidden to trade with these
parties?

A: I
heard it from that President, Mr. Haight. He got it.

Q: What did Mr. Haight say to you at the time
he gave you
this information?

A: I don't remember; I could not tell you
what he said
at that time. There was not much said about it.

Q: Did
you naturally take this information by observation, without words upon
the
subject?

A: By
words being spoken.

Q: What
were these words; where did you receive that information? In Cedar
City?

A: In
Cedar City.

Q: Was it
in the Council at Cedar?

A: I
think the principal place was in the afternoon meeting in Council.

Q: What men were present at that afternoon
meeting?

A: I could not remember them all. I remember a few; there was Isaac C.
Haight,
John M Higbee, and Ira Allen, and I think my counsel.

Q: Who
presided at that meeting?

A: Isaac
C. Haight and I think Laban Morrill, and Wiley.

Q: Can't
you tell anything that was said at that meeting?

A: Yes, I
don't know but I can.

Q: Tell me something that was said about the
emigrants
that were coming.

A: I think that Haight preached, and the main
part-most-it was his business as President to preach up any subject he
wanted
to at such a meeting. I think that was where it first started from, if
I
recollect right.

Q: Something you know he said, or somebody
else said;
I want a few facts. Tell me what somebody said at that meeting
concerning this
emigrant train.

A: I know what I said.

Q: Tell
me what you said.

A: I know
some words; I know that I said some words.

Q: Tell me what he said, and what you said.

A: He said that the emigrants was coming down
and the
rumor was - the idea was - to have them destroyed. That was the sum and
substance, as far as I recollect.

Q: What did you
say?

A:
They spoke
around in turns in
such meetings.

Q: What
did anybody else say?

A: I
could not tell you just what they said. I know Ira Allen was in favor,
with
Haight.

Q:
Where is Ira
Allen now? Do you
know whether he's living or dead?

A:
I do not. He
moved north from
Cedar City.

Q:
Do you know
where he settled?

A: No, sir.

Q:
Who else
advised the killing
of them off?

A:
I think John
M. Higbee.

Q: What
reason did he give?

A: I
don't know as there was any principal rea­son.

Q: Did Allen give
any reason?

A:
No particular
reason.

Q: Did Haight give any particular reason -
that the
idea of the destruction was coming along? Do you say that at your
Church
Council, where you was acting Bishop, that you met and coolly discussed
and
proposed the murder of the entire train without any cause whatever?

A: No, that was not the intention.

Q: Then, tell me what your intention was, and
how you
came to do it - if there was any reason for it.

A: I can tell you now, as I told you before,
that he
preached this matter, and some were with him and other opposed to it.

Q: Was he simply
advising them to
be killed without giving any reason for it?

A: He
didn't give any particular cause, and for that reason I opposed him.

Q: Do you
think they ought to have given you some reason for it?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: Was
there anything said about the property of that train?

A: No,
sir.

Q: Wealth?

A: No,
sir.

Q: Where they
were from?

A: I
don't know as there was; if there was, I don't remember.

Q: How many of
that Council voted
to kill that train?

A: There was no
vote taken.

Q: How
many talked in favor of it?

A: Those
that I mentioned - three or four.

Q: How
many opposed it?

A: There
was nearly as many.

Q: Who were the
main ones that
didn't want that useless slaughter?

A: I think Mr.
Morrill, and my
counsel, and myself.

Q: You opposed it?

A: I
did.

Q: Did
you have the right to appeal from the decision of that President to any
other
power.

A: Yes, I
would have, I suppose, in some things.

Q: Would
you in any matter of that character?

A: Yes, I
expect that I might have had.

Q: Did you make an effort to appeal to any
higher
power, or ask any person to repeal the action of President Haight - to
stop his
action with regard to that emigrant train?

A: I don't know of any power I could resort
to for
that purpose.

Q: Didn't know of
any?

A: No, sir.

Q: You say that you heard that the people
were
forbidden to trade with the emi­grants, and it made you feel bad.
Tell me how
you obtained that information.

A: I obtained it in the same manner from the
authorities over me, I heard it talked over and preached over.

Q: Who
did you hear preach over it?

A: I
heard Haight preach over it in public.

Q: How
many times before this train arrived in Cedar City did you hear Haight
preach
that you should not furnish these people with supplies - that train?

A: I
think once at least; I could not say how many times.

Q: How
long was it before the emigrants arrived -before you first heard they
were
coming?

A: It was
only a few days, I think.

Q: How many days?

A:
Probably three
or four.

Q: How
often did you hold Church meetings when Haight preached?

A: Several
evenings.

Q: How
could you hear Haight preach several times when there was only three or
four
days?

A: There
was several on Sunday.

Q: What
did you mean by saying that you heard him frequently - several times
previous
to that?

A: There
was such an order of things.

Q: It was
not in regard to this train, then?

A: Not
all the time about the same train.

Q: You will please hereafter confine yourself
in
speaking of the train, to things pertaining to this train, not to other
trains,
but to this particular set of men. It will save you trouble and me
trouble.

A: I don't know of any more than that one
time.

Q: Did you hear this order for tile people to
have no
dealings with the emigrants; did you hear them preaching that before
you had
this meeting in Council?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How
long, before you had that council?

A: On the
same Sunday.

Q: Didn't
you say in your examination in chief that this council was held on
Friday.

A: I
said, on Sunday afternoon.

Q: Had
you been absent from Cedar City a short time prior to the arrival of
this
emigrant train?

A: No,
sir. Not that I recollect anything about.

Q: How long had you been in Cedar City
without
leaving, or without being absent, previous to the arrival of the
emigrants?

A: I was not away that I know of.

Q: Go on
and state what you know of that massacre. Don’t state any hearsay.

A: The first thing I shall mention is, I
heard of this
company coming from Salt Lake; had heard also that the people were
forbidden to
trade with them, and a great deal of feeling some way.

Q: Now then, tell me if you ever heard of
this emigrant
train until you heard of it in the meeting on the Sunday previous to
the arrival
of the emigrant train?

A: The emigrant train passed through Cedar
City before
that meeting.

Q: It did?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How
long had they passed before that meeting?

A: Probably
two days; I think it was on Friday that they passed through.

Q: Did you not state in answer to a question
I asked
you, that you had heard Haight preach that the people should furnish
the emigrants
no supplies before they arrived?

A: I did, at different times.

Q: Tell me when you heard Haight preach first
to the
people of Cedar City, for­bidding them to furnish this emigrant
train supplies,
that they afterward massacred.

A: I could not tell you exactly-more than
that was the
preaching that he preached.

Q: Did
you ever hear any person preach previous, to not furnish supplies,
before their
passing through there?

A: I
might have done, a week.

Q: Then,
you was wrong when you said you only heard him preach about this train
once?

A: I
don't know as I said so.

Q: Do you
say you didn't say so?

A: I
don't know as I said I only heard him once - I said, a number of times.

Q: Referring
to this identical train?

A: Yes,
but just where or what place, I could not say.

Q: How long before the emigrants arrived at
Cedar City
was it that you heard Haight mention that train?

A: I couldn't say; it might have been a week,
might
have been less.

Q: How long was the train of emigrants at
Cedar City
when they passed through?

A: I could not tell you exactly. It was not
very long.
I hap­pened to be down on the lower town and saw a few of them that
was at the
mill. I think they passed right along, I could not say, but I think so.

[A portion is deleted here in which
Klingensmith was
made to repeat the information on rumors that the emigrants were to be
stopped
or killed, and also his assertion that he wanted to see them go through
unmolested. - ed.]

Q: Did
Haight or anybody say to you that there had been a determination formed
for the
purpose of killing the emigrants?

A: Not at
that time.

Q: Why,
if you knew this - why did you not as Bishop of the Church inquire
par­ticularly
concerning it?

A: So far as I
had power, I did.

Q: Hadn't
you the power to ask him how they were to be killed? And now they were
to be
dispatched?

A: If he
had told me these things, I would.

Q: Why
did you not ask him why they were to be killed ad who was to kill them?

A: I asked that,
particularly, in
the meeting before.

Q: What did he say?

A: As I told you how, that when we held this
meeting,
and this subject up and it came my turn to speak, I asked if such a
thing
should take place, and what would be consequence be of such a thing.

Q: You or I, one, can't understand what the
other is
driving at. I want to know if you, there, asked Mr. Haight the
question, or if
you, there, heard him give the answer to it. If he was asked why the
people
were to be killed, and who was to kill them.

A: No, he didn't say who or why, he gave no
answer,
and broke up the meeting, and went out home. I did [it] their way, what
I told
you.

Q: You
simply asked him what the consequences would be? Did you ask him why
the people
should be killed?

A: If I
did, it would be the same thing.

Q: It
is very different, the reason for committing the act and the result of
the act.
I want to know if you understood at the time that you went to Pinto
Creek -
whether you understood then, or had ever been informed why the
emigrants were
to be killed, and who were ordered to kill them, or at what point they
were to
be attacked.

A: Nobody
gave any reason why they should be killed.

Q: You
are positive about that?

A: I am.

Q: Did
you ever hear any reason given before, or afterwards?

A: I did not
before.

Q: Did
you afterwards?

A: Nor
afterwards, that I know of.

Q: Had
you no particular reason why they were to be killed?

A: I did
not-never had.

Q: You say that you were ordered to go to
Pinto Creek
- tell us what you did there?

A: I went with Mr. White, accompanied him
there, and
had the orders given from Haight what to tell the people. I [was] told
noth­ing;
I simply went with him as company. He told me, we were to tell the
President
[at Pinto Creek] that he should see that the people went through there,
and
allay the excitement of the Indians, and for the people to go through
clear.

Q: Then
you can't tell me anything about what took place at Pinto Creek at all.

A:
No, sir.

Q: How long did you remain
at Pinto Creek?

A: Which place do you refer to, Painter Creek
settlement? [note: Pinto (Span.) Creek and Painter (Engl.) Creek refer
to the
same small settlement. - ed.]

Q: How
long did you remain at Pinto Creek?

A: Got
there in the night and in the morning we left.

Q: How
many did you see at Pinto Creek?

A: I
don't recollect of seeing a great many.

Q: Did
you see any particular excitement there, directed towards these
emigrants?

A:
No,
sir.

Q: Did you see
any evidences
there of ill will of any kind against the emigrants.

A:
No, sir.

Q: Did you
converse with these
people?

A: I didn't
particularly about
it.

Q: Did
you talk with them about anything?

A: Nothing
more than a man or two that I talked with; I didn't talk about this
thing.

Q: Going
as a special messenger, did you remain silent about it? Why did you
remain
silent about your mission?

Defense:
Objected
to.

Witness:
It was given to Joel White, as officer. I accompanied him, but had
nothing to
say; he went to the President...

Q: Did you see John D. Lee from the time you
left
Cedar till
the time you returned?

A: Yes, sir.

Q:
Where did you
see him?

A: About two
miles and a half
below Cedar.

Q: Tell me what he was doing - what was said,
when you
met him.

A: He asked us where we was
going, and the
reply was
from Mr. White that we was going out to see that the emigrant train got
through
safe, and to talk to the people at Painter Creek. He said he would see
about
it, that he had something to say about that matter.

Q: Was that all
he said?

A: Says he, "I
have
something to say in that matter."

Q:
Was that all?

A:
About all; he
left, and we
went on.

Q: Didn't say that, in your direct
examination, that
he said, "I have something to say, too, about that matter"?

A: That is what I said now. It might be that
I have
mentioned it that way.

Q: Please give the language that John D. Lee
used in
that conversation as you want it to stand.

A: I gave it as
near as I recollect, of course. When we met, he asked, "Where are you
going?" and what the business was over there. And White replied, we was
going over to painter creek to see that the emigrant train got through
safe,
and to talk to the people, and to exert an influence with them, that
they might
go through safe, and to talk to the President fully about it.

Q: What did he
say then?

A: "I
have got something to say about that
matter." That is what he said.

Q: How
long did you remain in conversations with him?

A: Not long.

Q: What
time of day was that?

A: In the
afternoon, probably.

Q: That was about two and a half miles from
Cedar that
you met John D. Lee. What time did you leave Cedar to go to Painter
Creek?

A: About the mid­dle of the day, I
suppose. Pretty
near.

Q: What
time did you say you got to Painter Creek?

A: Sometime
in the night.

Q: About
what time?

A: Probably
midnight.

Q: You say Allen told you that the die was
cast in the
council at Parowan; did he tell you who had cast that die and gave the
order?

A: He didn't mention any particular name,
that I
remember-not that I recollect.

Q: Did he
mention any names?

A: I
think the expression was, simply by the authorities.

Q: What authorities
did he refer to, civil or military?

A: Well,
they were both in one.

Q:
It was a kind
of consolidation
of church and state?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: The
members of the Church council constituted the members of military
council, then?

A: Well,
they were officers in the military.

Q: What did you
do when you
returned to Cedar City? Who did you go to see?

A: I didn't go
see anybody; I
went home.

Q: What
day of the week was it you got back from Painter Creek?

A: It
must have been Tuesday-Monday I went out; Tuesday I got back.

Q: Got home
Tuesday?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q: What
time of day did you get home on Tuesday?

A: I
think it was about noon, or the middle of the afternoon.

Q: Now, you say that the
instructions had
been given
in the meeting, that the people should not furnish grain and wheat and
corn to the
emigrants. Now, sir, the people that furnished that
wheat, were
they cut off from the church, and killed by your direction, afterwards?

A: I gave no direction about it.

Q: Did
the people at Cedar City?

A: There
was only one person that I know of-Sam Jackson-that traded with them.

Q: Was he cut off
the Church?

A: I disremember.

Q: Was
the matter of his selling that wheat made a subject of discussion in
the
council?

A: It
was a matter of course, of fellowship.

Q: Was
the matter brought to any council, and talked over by the council?

A: I don't
recollect that it was.

Q:
Did any person
ever present a
charge to the council for selling that wheat?

A: Not that I
know of.

Q:
Was it not
your duty to be
present at all councils?

A: No, sir.

Q:
Did that party
remain there
afterwards, or not? The man that sold the wheat?

A:
He remained
there a while, and
moved here.

Q:
How long did
he live in Cedar
after that?

A:
I think he
left that spring,
or the winter following.

Q: Do
you know where he is?

A: I
don't, but he was here, in this place.

Q: What
was the name?

A: Sam
Jackson.

Q: When did you next have a
conversation with
Haight,
after you returned from Pinto Creek?

A: They sent, after this
news came in, for
reinforcements that I recollect of.

Q: Then,
had some people left Cedar City before that?

A: Yes,
it appears so.

Q: Had
they left without your knowledge?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: How
long had they been gone before you knew it?

A: I
don't know who went in the beginning.

Q: What did Haight say to
you, when he said
that
reinforcements had been sent for?

A: He told me that the thing hadn't worked
altogether
as they anticipated. They had a balk of it. An order came in from them
to me
last evening, and says he, "1 went up to Parowan, then to see and get
further instructions and orders about it, and to go back before day
this
morning; was gone all night."

Q: What else?

A: And then he told me what the council had
agreed
upon; he said that the council was to decoy them, and to save nothing
but the
small children.

Q:
What reply did
you make?

A:
I made no
reply to it.

Q: Did
you object to it at that time?

A: I
don't remember objecting to it. I don't know that I had time
there for
any
words.

Q: What
was done next now, after that?

A: Then I
went down to the lower town.

Q: Did you
make any effort to rally the people to go out and save the train of
emi­grants?

A: I did
not.

Q: Why?

A: I
had no power.

Q: Were
you not a Bishop?

A: Because
the authorities was over me, and I was under them.

Q: But as a man, casting aside you
allegiance, could
you not have done it in safe­ty? Did you do anything in that
council more than
simply ask the questions as to what would be consequence to the act?

A: I stated I was entirely opposed to it, and
that
made him mad.

Q: That was all
you said admit it?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q:
Did you tell
him, when the
orders came, that you were opposed to it?

A:
No, sir.

Q: You tried to
prevent no one
from going?

A:
No, sir.

Q: Why could
you not do it; there must have been some reason?

A: Because
I was afraid if I was to undertake that, that it would be bad for me.

Q: There
nl1lst be some reason - who was you afraid of? Name them.

A: I was
afraid of the authorities, the authorities immediately over me.

Q: Which
do you refer to, Church or military?

A: Church
and military both.

Q: For,
what reason would you to be afraid of disobeying the authorities?

A: I had this
reason-that if a man didn't walk up
to what he was told to, it would not be well for him.

Q: Do you mean
that he would suffer
personal violence?

A:
Yes, I do.

Q: You
mean that if you didn't obey council, you would be killed?

A: I
might have been.

Q: You was afraid
you might have
been killed?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Then if I understand you,
you did what
acts you
committed, and kept your tongue silent, and obeyed orders for the
purpose of saving
your own life?

A: Yes, it was my right.

Q: How
was it with other people, there?

A: The
same way, as far as I know of.

Q:
Except those
in authority?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: If you, being the third mall in position,
could not
disobey authority, had you the right to give directions to those under
you in
anything?

A: Only in
small, temporal affairs.

Q: Killing
a few people of that kind was a temporal matter with you?

A: No,
sir. I had to.

Q: Who
were the authorities that claimed you had to obey? Haight. Haight was
the man?

A: Yes,
and his council.

Q: Whom
were his council?

A: John
M. Higbee and Elias Morris. Elias Morris was the son of old man Morris,
that
was my counsel.

Q: You say that you was afraid of your life,
if you
refused to obey orders - it is rather a peculiar answer. I asked you
what
reason you had to form such an opinion. Did you form that opinion from
the long
acquaintance with the institutions of this country and the manner of
enforcing
discipline?

A: It was the long acquaintance with things I
had here
in various ways.

Q: Did your personal knowledge of these
matters enable
you to form a more accu­rate idea of the manner of enforcing
discipline?

A: I had no particular knowledge of anybody's
being
put out of the way, or anything of that kind.

Q: You say you never knew of anything of that
kind?

A: I have seen when one man was put out of
the way in
that manner, but not out here in this country. I saw a man die.

Q: In
this country, you never heard of such a thing being done?

A: I had heard
of it.

Q:
Do you believe
it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Then
you acted upon that belief when you surrendered your manhood and took
part in
this transaction?

A: Yes,
of course.

Q: You say you had heard of things of this
kind being
done; tell me something you had heard, and the reasons for acting this
way. What
had you heard concerning the actions of the council that let you to
believe
that your life was in danger if you disobeyed instructions?

A: I don't know as I could refer you to any
particular
thing.

Q: That was
the general feeling that pervaded the atmosphere - the same as this
rumor? Or
that ought to be done?

A: That
is the way of it, mostly.

Q: You
say you had been Bishop there for six years, and had heard of men being
put out
of the way by order of the council?

A: Never
by order of council.

Q: Do you say you
knew of any
member of the council acting against the institutions of the Church or
military?

A:
Not at Cedar.

Q:
Around Cedar,
in southern
Utah?

(No
answer.)

[At this point, the defense attempted to
bring in
stories of murders supposed to have occurred when men had committed
serious
sins or crimes, or disobeyed authorities. In particular the name Rasmus
Anderson was raised, and finally the defense attorney suggested that
Klingensmith had participated. -ed.]

Prosecution: We object to
the question. If
they have
the right to prove these facts, why - then- we would have the right to
go into
the whole question and the right to go into the entire homicide, and
the trial
would never end.

Judge:
Objection
sustained.

Q: You
say that Mr. Haight told you that orders had been given at Parowan that
the
emigrants should be decoyed from their stronghold, and all of them
killed
except their children that would be too small to give testimony. Did
Mr. Haight
inform you lie had been present at the council at Parowan when this
decision
was rendered?

A: I
understood that he got it from Dame, who was the Colonel.

Q:
Did he state
who had been
present in the council when these orders were given, or no?

A: He didn't.

Q:
Did you see
any order in
writing to that effect?

A: I didn't.

Q:
Did you ever
see any written
order concerning this matter?

A:
I
did not.

Q: How long after you had this conversation
with
Haight that you saw him again?

A: I think we went out that day, and next day
the
slaughter took place. And the next day of the evening of the slaughter,
he got
there.

Q: You mean
the evening of the day of the slaughter? Or the day after it?

A: The
evening of it.

Q: You saw him
that same night?

A: Yes, sir. At
Hamblin's ranch.

Q:
How did you
come to go to the
scene of the slaughter -by whose directions?

A:
By Mr. Lee's
and John
Higbee's.

Q: Did
you receive orders from Mr. Lee to go to the slaughter - to leave Cedar
City?

A: No,
sir. John M. Higbee gave me those orders.

Q: Why
did You say you left Cedar City and went to the Mountain Meadows by the
order
of John D. Lee?

A: I
didn't state so, did I?

Q: I asked you,
by whose orders.
You said, "by Lee's and John M. Higbee's."

A: Higbee gave the order at
Cedar City. He
gave me
orders like this, when I stepped up to where he was down at the old
Fort: to
arm and equip myself, and go out there as the law directed.

Q: What
time of day was that?

A: That
was in the fore part of the day, proba­bly.

Q: What
did you say to Higbee when he gave you that order?

A: I
don't think I made any reply.

Q:
What did you
do?

A:
I went to do
as I was told.

Q: What
did you do, then?

A: I went and
got my gun and ammunition and went.

Q: Who went
with you?

A: I
could not recollect all that went out at that time; there was a number.

Q: About how
many?

A:
There was two
baggage wagons,
and some was on horseback, and some on the wagons - probably twelve or
fifteen.

Q:
Who was in
command of that
body of men?

A:
Higbee.

Q: Was you a
member of the
regular military?

A:
I was a
private.

Q: What
company did you belong to, or regiment or division, at the time you
went out?

A: I
could not
hardly tell you. It was in
companies of ten.

Q: I mean
regular companies -hundreds or whatever it was.

A: There
were from tens to fifties, and from that to hundreds.

Q:
Who commanded
the hundred that
you belonged to?

A: Haight
commanded them.

Q: Who
was your captain?

A: John
M. Higbee was next in command.

Q: Who
was your captain?

A: Higbee.

Q:
Who was your
major?

A: Them, we
called captains and
majors both.

Q:
In that
organization, there
was a kind of multiplied offices, then?

A:
I guess so. I
could not tell.

[Court adjourned until half
past two o'clock,
when the
examination of Klingensmith by defense attorney Wm. W. Bishop is
resumed. He
begins by making the witness go over the trip to Pinto Creek, and then
repeat
his testimony regarding the gathering of troops during the night in
preparation
for the action against the emigrant train. Then Bishop returns to
questions
about who was in authority.-ed.]

Q: At this council you have spoken of as
having being
held on the field, did you hear Higbee state that the Indians were
there in
large numbers?

A: I
heard
someone say that they were, but it was not spoken of in the council at
that
time. I think it was Lee's statement.

Q:
You can
recollect what Lee
said, better than what anyone else said, in reference to this matter?

A:
I
don't know as I can.

Q: Did
you hear any orders given to Lee at that council?

A: I
did.

Q: Who
gave them?

A: Higbee.

Q: How
did he give those orders? Verbally, or otherwise?

A: Verbally.
I didn't see any writings.

Q: What
did Higbee say to Lee?

A: He
told him, from these orders that he had from Haight, that they came
from
Parowan.

Q: Please repeat that.

A: That the orders had come, that they was to
be decoyed
out and destroyed, with the exception of the small chil­dren.

Q: Did he
give any commands to Lee, what he should do?

A: No,
sir. Not that I know of.

Q: Don't
remember him giving any orders to Lee?

A: No,
sir. Not any com­manding orders?

Q: Did you hear this talked over in this
council, how
this was to be done, and who was to do it?

A: Yes, I heard these orders delivered over
to him by
Higbee.

Q:
Who did Higbee
give his
orders to?

A:
John D. Lee.

Q:
What did he
say to him?

A: I
told you that Higbee said to Lee-

Q:
I don't want
the substance, I
want the words he told him; I want the orders.

A: He told them that the
orders was to decoy
them out
and destroy them - that that was his orders. That's all I know about
it. That
was Higbee's general orders.

Q:
That was
Higbee's orders to
Lee?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What did you mean by
saying a few minutes
ago,
"he didn't give him any orders - ?" What did he tell Lee to do?

A: You misunderstood me. He
delivered these
orders to
him, not gave them.

Q: How
could he deliver them to him without giving them to him? Did he tell
Lee what he
was to do?

A: I
suppose he did; I know he did.

Q: Tell us what he said.

A: He said that he had these
order from
Haight, that
he was to decoy them out-he was to take charge of it, and that they
were to be
destroyed.

Q: Higbee told Lee that the
order had come
from Haight
to Higl1ee, and directed Lee that he must take charge of it?

A: Yes, sir. They must be
all destroyed.

Q: Did Higbee state at that
time who was to
decoy them
out from their stronghold and destroy the emigrants?

A: Not any more that that
the soldiers should
do it.

Q: Was
there anything said about the Indians at that time?

A: No,
not anything much said about them that I recollect.

Q: Didn't you state in your
examination-in-chief that
the Indians were to rush in and destroy tile women and children
according to
previous arrange­ment?

A: Not till after they was
come out.

Q: Wasn't it agreed upon council, where you
was present,
the exact part the Indians could take, when the emigrants had been
decoyed from
their cor­ral?

A: I don't
recollect particularly.

Q: Didn't you understand, at the time you
funnelled into
line, some half mile from the corral, that you and the others of the
whites
there under arms should kill the men, and that the Indians should kill
their
women and children?

A: What I know is, that was
the order and
understanding.

Q:
That order was delivered by Higbee, there on the field, after you had
been
placed in line?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: That was the
first you heard
of that?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q: Was
Lee with you, after you had been placed in line, before the parties
were all
killed?

A: He
went down from the lines.

Q: Did
he leave the line after these order were given? or before Lee's orders
were
given?

A: I
don't know what orders you mean.

Q: I
mean the orders that should control your actions in the massacre.

A: It
was afterwards, of course.

Q: Was
he present at the time these orders were given?

A: These
orders were given in the hollow square, as I understood it.

Q: Was
Lee present when Higbee gave these orders to his men?

A: I
don't know whether he was present at that time or not.

Q: Do
you know whether Lee heard these orders or not - the particulars as to
how this
work was to be done?

A: I
do not know.

Q: Do you know that he heard
them at all?

A: As of my own knowledge I know what was
said there,
in the council, before they started out to accomplish it. That he was
to take
charge of the whole matter, according to his authority that he had or
pretended
to have. He was to take charge of it; Higbee assisted him.

Q: Who
gave the orders?

A: Higbee
-
Higbee brought those order to Lee.

Q: Who
do you say gave the orders on the field, after you had assembled there,
Higbee
or Lee?

A: Higbee,
when he was in the square.

Q: After you had been drawn up into line -
after the
emigrants marched out ­who gave the orders?

A: John M. Higbee gave the
orders when we
were in
line.

Q: If Lee was the person in
command at the
time, how
did Higbee come to give the orders?

A: He was the commander over the men - Lee
was under
Higbee, over all these soldiers.

Q: Were
you there as a military company, or otherwise?

A: We
were in military array.

Q: Were
you under military orders?

A: So
far as I know, we had military orders.

Q: What
office did John D. Lee hold in the military, at that time?

A: I
don't know.

Q: Don't
you know that he held none?

A: I
do not; I understood that he was major or captain over fifty.

Q:
When did you understand it?

A: From
Harmony.

Q: When
did you learn that fact?

A: I heard it
from rumor before ever that thing
happened.

Q: What man has ever told
you that John D.
Lee was a
major at the time that this massacre took place?

A: I could not tell you that, because I do
not know
that man.

Q: Don't
you know that at that time he held no military command whatever?

A: I
didn't know it.

Q: What orders were given to
you in the
hollow square
before you marched out from your camping place?

A: I didn't hear any particular orders,
there. I was
not in the hollow square.

Q: You
didn't hear the orders? Do you know what was said to the men while they
were in
that square?

A: No,
I said I didn't hear it.

Q: Do you know if any orders were given to
the men
there then, or not?

A: It was said so, but I didn't hear it. I
told you
before that I was outside of that hollow square. I didn't know what was
said
inside the square.

Q: Wasn't
you present, aiding, advising and counseling, as a member of the
council, while
on the field?

A: No,
sir.

Q: Wasn't you adl1ising
during the time that
Higbee,
Hopkins, Allen and the others were in council, on the field, at the
camping
place - at the time that Higbee notified Lee what orders he had
received? Did
you not join in the discussion that then took place?

A: I joined this far, that they had such
orders and
authority to go and carry them out, according to their orders. That is
what I
said.

Q: Did you not
also state at that
time and place that it was too late to stop now?

A:
I don't
recollect of saying
so.

Q: Did you not state that
two men had been
killed, or
that one man had been killed and another man wounded at some spring
between
Ritchie's Springs and between the Mountain Meadows and Cedar, and that
this man
had been killed by Stewart, and that the wounded man had escaped and
returned
to the emigrant camp; that the emigrants knew that the whites
were
aiding
the Indians; that unless they were all killed they would excite the
people of
California to come in a hostile attitude and attack the Mormons from
the south
and west?

A: No, I don't know as I know any­thing
about that; I
know that in going, what Higbee said on the road about where one man
was killed
and another at Richie's Springs. He had been put out, it appears,
before the
first attacks, and when we got to that point, he spoke of that thing
going out.

Q: During
this council, on the field, did you not say in substance as that I have
stated?

A: Nothing
more than what I have said.

Q: At that same council, did you not argue
that it
would be right to exterminate the emigrants because Johnston's Army was
on the
east, and that this was a necessary war measure?

A: No, sir. I did not.

Q: Did
you make any effort after you arrived on the field to prevent the
attack on the
emigrants out there?

A: No.

Q: Did you converse with any person, or
persons,
requesting that the matter be stopped or suggest any different line of
action
than that marked out by Higbee's instructions?

A: No, there was no chance for me there.

Q: What do you mean by saying that there was
no
chance, when you had the right and privilege of talking to them and to
do as
you pleased?

A: I hadn't the right and
privilege to
countermand
what was ordered.

Q: You have spoken of the
flag of truce being
sent;
now sir, can you tell positively who carried that first flag?

A: Well, as to that first flag going from the
ranks, I
could not positively tell, only as my mind was refreshed; it was a man
by the
name of William Bateman.

[At this point,
defense attorney Bishop leads the witness through a long and detailed
rehearsal
of the positioning of the troops and their intended victims, catching
Klingensmith in some contradictions, or confusing him. This leads once
again to
the question of who was in charge. - ed.]

Q: State
the word used by Higbee when he gave the command to attack the
emi­grants.

A: It was
understood-

Q: I don't want what was understood - give me
Higbee's
words that he used on the field.

A: Well he said, at the head of his column at
the
time, the Nauvoo Legion, "Halt," and "Fire!"

Q: Where
was John D. Lee at the time?

A: He was
with the women, ahead.

Q: How
far from you?

A: I could not
say, exactly. Might have been two
or three hundred yards.

Q: Was
he in sight of you?

A: No,
he was hidden from us behind a point like.

Q: An
elevation on the ground concealed him?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: How far were the women, that is the
hindmost women
in advance of the fore­most men that was in the column, just a
little before
they halted?

A: They wasn't far, but the
women was right
ahead.

Q: How
long did the emigrants stand in line after they were first halted?

A: They
never stood in line. "Halt" and Fire!" was one.

Q: Then,
they were attacked as soon as "Halt"?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: How
long after you made the attack on the men before the women were
attacked?

A: All
done at the same time, so far as I know.

Q: You said, yesterday, that
the Mormons who
went out
with the Indians in the first instance had attacked the emigrants some
three
days before the last time you have spoken of How do you know that
Mormons went
out with the Indians?

A: What I heard them say.

Q: Who
were those that went out first, and those that came back?

A: Well,
Allen, Higbee and Charlie Hopkins.

Q: Then you heard the talk about what was
taking place
on the field, while you still remained at Cedar?

A: I heard them at Cedar
before I was ordered
out.

Q: Then
you had a conversation with Haight before you started out?

A: I had
one with Higbee and those three men.

Q: How far was you standing
from the nearest
emigrant
when you fired your gun?

Q: I wish you would refresh your memory and
tell us
whether the emigrants were marching in double file or single file at
the time
you fired upon them.

A: As near as I can recollect, in double
file.

Q: What
man, if any, came with the emigrants up to where your company was
stationed.

A: I
don't know any, except John D. Lee.

Q: Did he
come with the men?

A: Yes,
with the company. With the women ahead.

Q: Where was Lee?

A:
In
the wagons.

Q: You say the women were
between the wagons
and the
men - was there any man specially directing the movements of these
emigrant
men?

A: Why, of course; I didn't
know anyone else
that
guided their movements, but Lee.

Q: Now,
didn't anybody else go down into the camp but Lee?

A: Not that
I know of.

Q: Do you know of anybody going down to the
camp while
Lee was there, but Lee?

A: I don't, unless it was those with the
wagons; there
was the wagons went down there.

Q: Who
drove the wagons?

A: Sam
McMurdy was one; and the other, I believe, belongs to Sam Knight.

Q:
Is it your
best recollection
that no man went to the corral while Lee was there?

A: Not that I
know of; if I did
[say it], I don't know anything about it.

Q: Did you not state
yesterday, in your
examination in
chief, that Lee stayed there some two hours, and a man was sent to tell
him to
hurry up?

A: I don't know as I did.

Q:
Made no such
answer?

A: No, sir.

Q: How
many of your men were on horseback?

A: I
don't recollect seeing more than two.

Q: You
stated, I believe, that you didn't know the names of any of the people
that
were there killed.

A: I
don't know.

Q: What
name, if any, was this train known by previous to the day that they
were
attacked?

A: I
never knew any name.

Q: Had
you ever heard any special name given to them?

A: Not as
I recollect; I might have heard a name, but if I did it has slipped my
mind.

Q: Is it not a fact that all of you made up
the
arrangement to go out and kill these people for their property?

A: No, sir. There was no such a thought, in
my mind,
at least.

Q:
And you never
heard it talked
of by anyone?

A:
I did not.

Q: To whom did the emigrants
speak of
gratitude, at
the time they came up to your company?

A: I don't know as they spoke to anyone in
particular,
that I remember anything about.

Q: After the emigrants left the corral, while
they
were marching up where you stood in line, did you see any Indians upon
the
field?

A: I saw
Indians on the right above us.

Q:
How many did
you see?

A:
I could not
tell.

Q: How
many did you understand, from those in authority?

A: I saw a good
many around there.

Q: How many did you understand, from those
in
authority, were there?

A: I think I heard it talked of that there
was
something more than a hundred Indians there.

Q:
Don't you
know, of your own
knowledge, that there was over three hundred there?

A: I do not.

[At
this point,
the testimony is
directed to a restatement of the events immediately following the
killing, in
which Klingensmith gathers up the children, takes them to Hamblin's
ranch, then
works with an older widow and midwife to take care of them and place
them with
Mormon families. We pick this sequence up as he names some of those
families. -
ed.]

Q: Who
took care of these children, after that? Where did they get homes?

A: That
is more than I could tell you, all at once. I have forgotten.

Q:
Take your time
to it.

A: I have
forgotten it.

Q:
Having been
placed in charge
of the children upon the field of the massacre, with direction to take
care of
them, how does it come that you disposed of them in a manner that you
cannot
account for them?

A: I
got them different places around, amongst
the people. I considered it a serious matter.

Q:
Wasn't it your
duty to get
them a home?

A: I did do so.

Q: Wasn't it a matter of
sufficient
importance to
impress it upon your memory to know who you delivered them to, so you
could
hold them to account for the delivery of these children?

Prosecution:
Objected to.

Court:
Go ahead.

Defense: Can you give me the
names of these
parties
that you left the children with?

A: I name myself, for one; I name another
Ingram -
they got a couple, as they had no children - they came a good ways to
get them.

Q: What
did you do with the others; isn't there thirteen left or fifteen left?

A: John M.
Higbee got one, the biggest boy.

Q: Who
got the others - who else got any?

A: Left
one at Hamblin's; left one at Pinto Creek.

Q: That
is five, do you recollect who got the other twelve?

A: I
don't recollect; I took pains to get them as good places as I could.

Q:
Where did you
next see Lee
after you returned home?

A: At Cedar City.

Q:
How long was
that after the
transaction?

A: It might have
been a week; it
might have been longer; I couldn't tell you.

Q: Did
you have any conversation with him at that time?

A: Yes,
sir. Some.

Q: Concerning
this matter?

A: No,
not particularly concerning it.

Q: Who
helped you brand the cattle?

A: John
Urie, George Hunter and Ira Allen. I don't recollect of anybody else.

Q: Where
were the cattle corralled for branding?

A: At
Iron Springs, seven miles from Cedar City.

Q: Who was placed in charge of the cattle,
from that
time?

A: Those men who brought and helped to brand
them, and
put the Church brand on them by Haight's orders.

Q: How
long were you engaged in branding cattle?

A: We
went there in the morning, and came away in the evening.

Q: Did you ever
see any of the
stock, except as you branded there?

A: I
didn't. Not to my recollection. I don't know
anything about that.

Q: How
many horses did you see?

A: I
don't recollect.

Q: How
many mules?

A: I
recollect of three.

Q: What
was done with the mules?

A: These
three went to Cedar City; two was left in my charge, and one John
Higbee got.

Q: How long did
you keep these two mules?

A: I kept them all the time.
They were left
in my
charge to fit out and go and get a load of lead at the Vegas.

Q: How
long did you say you were hauling lead from the Vegas?

A: Made
one trip.

Q: What
did you do with them after?

A: Kept
them.

Q: How did that clothing,
Lindsey and such
things as
that you spoke of get into your cellar?

A: I put it there; I put it
there with the
help of
those that were at Iron Springs who brought it in the wagons.

Q: Who
helped you put it in the cellar?

A: John Urie,
George Hunter and Ira Allen as far as I recollect; there might have
been some
more.

Q: How long did it remain
there in the
cellar?

A: It remained there until after I went up to
Conference and back; it was there when I went for lead, and there when
I came
back.

Q: How
long did you remain in Salt Lake?

A: Maybe
four or five days - maybe a week. I could not say exactly. For a day or
two.

Q: While
in Salt Lake did you inform the authorities there as to the exact
manner in
which that train of emigrants had been disposed of?

A: No,
sir.

Q: You
said nothing about it to anybody?

A: No, sir.

Q: You
didn't speak about it at all at that time?

A: No, sir.

Q: Not
to anybody in Salt Lake?

A: No,
sir.

Q: Didn't you
suppose at that
time that the Chief authorities in the Territory resided in Salt Lake?

A: I knew that.

Q: Why
did you remain silent upon that subject?

A: Because
I have no right or authority to speak about it.

Q: You
were still under the authority of Haight?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: Under
the restriction of that authority at that time?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q:
How far did
Haight's
restriction of authority extend at that time.

A: I expect it
extended pretty well up in that thing.

Q: What do you mean by that; do you mean
east, west,
north or south, how and what?

A: Well, I don't know as I
can answer that
exactly. I
don't know how.

Q: Did he
have any authority at Salt Lake?

A: No, I
don't know. He didn't have any authority in Salt Lake, as I know of.

Q: Did any person
ask you
anything about it in Salt Lake?

A: I don't
recollect of any
outsider.

Q: Did any outsider talk
with you about it?

A: I don't know what you
mean by outside or
inside. I
don't recollect anybody asking me anything about it in particular. I
recollect
of one man talking some about it.

Q: What
man was that that had the audacity to talk with you on that subject?

A: It
was Charlie Dalton and I talked something about it.

Q: Did you give him the facts?

A: No, I didn't give him any particular
facts; he
asked me about it; he said he was away from there, lived north then.

Q: Did
you tell him the people had been killed, and who killed them?

A: Like
enough I did in part.

Q: Do you
think you did tell him?

A: I
expect I did tell him something about it; but just what I told him I
cannot
say.

Q: Hadn't you just as much right to talk to
Brigham
Young, to George A. Smith, and such other parties, as you had to him?

A: I don't know
as I had, because they didn't ask me to talk about such things.

Q: Then he is the only man you have talked to
about it
in Salt Lake City?

A: The man was interested in it because of
John D Lee
being his father-in-law.

Q: How long after you returned to Cedar City
after the
conference that you saw John D. Lee again?

A: I don't know as I recollect seeing him at
all any­more
till after I came back south, that I recollect.

Q: You
say that you went with Hopkins and Lee to visit President Young?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: While
in the presence of President Young, was the matter mentioned by any of
the
parties?

A: No,
sir.

Q: Who
introduced the subject at that visit concerning the property formerly
belonging
to the emigrants?

A: President
Young.

Q: What did he say,
concerning that property?

A: He said, concerning that prop­erty of
that people,
"Let John D. Lee take charge of it, inasmuch as he is the Indian agent
now." That is what he said.

Q: Did
he give any direction as to what should finally be done with the
proper­ty?

A: No,
I don't know as he did any more than that.

Q: You
say the Brigham young said to you, and to Hopkins, and to Lee, "Say
nothing of what you know about this matter.”

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: Did he
use that language at that time, that you have referred to?

A: He did.

Q: Was
anything else said by him there to you by way of advice or counsel?

A: No,
sir.

Q: What
reply did you make?

A: I made
none.

Q: You
considered it your duty to obey that counsel, the same as you had
obeyed the
counsel of Haight?

A: I
did, of
course.

Q: How long did you remain
in that same state
of mind
concerning your duties to your superiors?

A: I could not tell you; not a very great
while. I
never was catched again after that, I know that.

Q: One or two little
transactions like that
would
satisfy almost anybody. When did you first make public the facts
connected with
that transaction?

A: I expect something like
three years ago,
in
Bullionville, to Charlie Wandell.

Q: Was
that affidavit you refer to drawing in every part true, or not?

A: It
was, as far as I can recollect.

Q: Before what officer did
you take your
oath, at the
time that affidavit was made?

A: In the County Clerk's in
Pioche; I believe
his name
was Miller, Peter Miller.

Q: Then you kept in absolute silence
concerning the
facts concerning the tragedy something over thirteen years?

A: I didn't make a public
talk of it; I might
have had
some talk with people sometimes, a little.

Q: How long did you remain
in full fellowship
with the
Mormon Church after September '57?

A: Well, I was not cut off until some four or
five
years ago, I believe; I was not considered in full fellowship; I didn't
con­sider
myself that way.

Q: How long did you remain
in full
fellowship?

A: I considered myself - I
never attended
meetings
anymore - hardly ever after I resigned my office of Bishop.

Q: When
did you resign your office of Bishop?

A: Well,
it was in '58 or '59.

Q: What
time in '58?

A: I
think it was sometime about-

Q: Can't
you give me the date when you resigned as Bishop?

Prosecution:
I
cannot see the relevancy of
these questions.

Defense: You will
see it, before
we get through.

Witness:
I don't
know as I can,
unless I go and get the records.

Q: Are you positive it was
in '58?

A: No, I am not, it may have
been in '59. I
am not
positive to that. Perhaps it was in '59. It was sometime in the
summertime,
when George A. Smith and some of them was down there.

Q: What
time was you cut off from the Church?

A: I
don't know I heard it. I was living out on my ranch some four or five
years
ago.

Q:
That was
before you made this
affidavit?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q: Have
you ever taken steps to reunite yourself with that church since that
time?

A: No,
sir.

Q: Are
you now a member of that church, in full standing?

A: I
am not, and never expect to be.

[Attorney Bishop returns to
the disposition
of the
emigrants' proper­ty, clothing, cattle and equipment again. As in
previous
questioning on this theme there is an implied suggestions that the
participants
committed the massacre to rob the emigrants - which Klingensmith always
vehemently denies. Then the attorney suddenly turns to the question of
who was
in charge on the killing field, once more.-ed.]

Q:
You say that
the hills were
full of Indians at the time that the emigrants came out of their
corral, and that
they were to kill the women and children, that these were the orders.
Were
these order given?

A:
I understood
that in the
council, long before they started out to accomplish it.

Q: Who
gave the orders from which you gathered that understanding?

A: I
under­stood that Lee had charge of it.

Q: Don't
fall back on that. Who gave the orders to tile Indians?

A: I know
not.

Q: Who
gave the orders that it was to be done?

A: Well,
I don't understand. I don't know who gave the orders to the Indians.

Q: Who gave the orders in the council, that
the
Indians should be directed to do this thing?

A: I don't know whether there was any
particular order
given to that effect- don't recollect of any.

Q: What did you mean, then, by saying that
that was
the "first orders"? I want just to correct, what do you mean by the
''first orders"? Were they the orders given in councilor the orders
given
in the field?

A: I don't know where the Indians got their
orders for
the act; I was not with the Indians, and I did not hear any order given
to the
Indians.

Q: How did you understand that Carl Shirts
had charge
of the Indians on the ground?

A: I could not tell who told that, but that
is what
was talked around. That was another matter that was in the air-

Q: Did anybody tell you upon the field, or in
that
council, that Carl Shirts had charge of the Indians on the ground?

A: I expect they did, but I don't
rec­ollect any
person, particularly.

Q: How
did you come to say, in your testimony, that Carl Shirts had charge of
the
Indians?

A: I
heard so.

Q:
Who from?

A:
Different ones
that was there.

Q:
Tell me one of
them.

A:
I could not
tell you the
particulars.

Q: How
many Indians were wounded there?

A: I
didn't see any wounded around there.

Q: Where
was it you saw the wounded Indians?

A: I saw
a couple over at Cedar. They was said to be wounded there.

Q: These
that you say were Bill and Tom - Chiefs?

A: Yes.

Q: When did you see this property you speak
of as
being in the possession of the Indians - before or after your departure
to Salt
Lake to attend tire confer­ence?

A: I think it was
afterwards.

Q: Didn't
you frequently have conversations with the Indians concerning the
property of
the emigrants?

A: No,
sir.

Q: Never did?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did
you hear conversations between any of the parties that had a hand in
that
affair and tire Indians, and talked the matter over.

A: No,
sir.

Q: Never hear
anything about that
question?

A:
No,
sir.

Q: They asked you yesterday
how John D. Lee
was
dressed when he went to Salt Lake at the time you say you saw him
there, and had
the meeting with Brigham Young. What makes you know that Ire had a
checked
shirt on at that time?

A: I don't think he had it
on when I saw him
in Salt
Lake City.

Q: It
was in Salt Lake City you saw him with it on.

A: I
didn't say so, as I know of.

Q:
Where was Ire
when he had this
checked shirt on?

A:
It was said
that he started
with them, and showed the bullet holes on the way.

Q: Do
you know of your own knowledge how he was dressed?

A: I do
not.

Q: Did
you see him on his way to Salt Lake City?

A: I did not.

Q: Why
did you say that lie had a checked shirt on?

A: Because
that was the talk, but I didn't see him. He told that, himself.

Q: Told you
himself? Did you hear
him do this?

A:
I did not.

Q: I don't
want any more of this atmosphere that you have been imbibing. You say
you did
not see him on his way to Salt Lake at all.

A: I
did not.

Q: How
was he dressed in Salt Lake?

A: I
disremember; I cannot tell you how he was
dressed - it is so long ago.

Q: You
can't describe it at all?

A: No
more than he was dressed some way­ could not tell what kind of
clothes he did
have on.

Q: Was
your memory yesterday as good as it is today on that point?

A: My
mem­ory is better today than it was yesterday.

Q: From that point, how was John D. Lee
dressed when
he came from Salt Lake to give the report? I'm simply asking you now
about your
memory. I ask you now if your memory was any better yesterday that it
is today
on that point.

A: I
don't know
as it was.

Q: Then what did you mean,
yesterday, when
you
answered the question as to how he was dressed -my saying that he had a
checked
shirt on; that you had heard that and said that from rumor; or that you
knew it
to be so?

A: He told me that, himself.

Q: Where
did he tell you that?

A: Told
me that since I came up here, in the jail.

Q: Aside
from what he told you since you came to town here, you know nothing of
how he
was dressed on that trip.

A: I
don't know as I do.

Q: How
do you know that Lee was the Indian agent at Harmony?

A: I
don't know, only by what Young said; I have no other knowledge.

Q: Who was it that gave you
the information?

A: What President Young said at the time when
he said,
he had better take charge of that property as he was the Indian agent.
That is
all I know about it, now.

Q: Did
you hear John D. Lee give any commands to the troops on the
field?

A: No, I
don't know as I did on the field.

Q: You
say, you was sent down to the Vegas for lead. Who went with you?

A: Isaac
C. Haight.

Q: For
what purpose was that lead to be used?

A: I
don't know,
but most of it went up to Salt
Lake.

Q: Where
did you haul your lend to?

A: I hauled her
to Cedar City and smelted it out
by the ton or load.

Q: Did you ever have any
trouble with the
Indians
about that property that was taken by the emigrants?

A: Never knew of any trouble with the Indians
about
the property taken. Never knew any trouble by the authori­ties
concerning it.

Q: How many Indians returned
with these two
Indian chiefs, when they returned to Cedar
City?

A: I can't tell you that.
They went away
without my
knowledge, and came back without my knowledge.

Q: How
many men belonged to the tribe of that chief?

A: I
could not tell you that, either. They was not a very great tribe.

Q: What
tribe of Indians was the chiefs of?

A: The
Paiute Tribe of Indians.

Q: Don't
you know about tile time of the massacre that the Indians of Corn Creek
and
other part of the Territory had gathered in the vicinity of Cedar City,
and
that they were coming there for several days and having dances?

A: I
did not.

Q: Do you not know, as a
matter of fact, that
after the
massacre many Indians came around Cedar or in the near vicinity and had
great
feasts and dances?

A: No, sir. Nothing more
than common run of
things
that I know of.

Q: In regard to the
children, how long was it
after
the massacre before they were delivered to Dr. Forney?

A: I could not tell, exactly, but it must
have been
over a year, though. [Dr. Forney was sent from the east to retrieve the
children and return them to their surviving relatives. ­ed.]

Q: How many of the children that were first
placed in
your possession on the field of the massacre were afterward delivered
to Dr.
Forney?

A: I didn't see them. It
wasn't by me they
was
collected. I didn't collect them together.

Q: After the children had
been delivered to
you, as
you have described, did you or did you not deliver one or more of the
wounded
children to the Indians for the purpose of being killed?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you not say in the
presence of William
H. Dame
and Samuel Knight at Hamblin's Ranch on the morning after the massacre,
that
you had given a wounded child to the Indians to be killed?

A: I did not.

Q: As
you didn't want to be bothered with them?

A: No,
sir. I never said so. I never knew anything about it.

Q:
Are you
acquainted with a man
by the name of Jacob Hamblin.

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see him shortly after the
massacre at Cedar
City, and have a conver­sation with him concerning the massacre?

A: No, sir. Not that I have any knowledge or
recollection of.

Q: Did you not see him there
at that time,
and did he
not say to you that he rather Buchanan would hear of all the men in
Utah being
killed than he would give his consent to the killing of women and
children; and
then did you not reply, "If you break out that way, around the mouth,
we
will have to take care of you."

A: No, sir.

Q:
Did you have
any conversation
substantially like that with him?

A:
No, sir.

Q:
Are you
acquainted with Robert
Keys, that was a witness on tire stand yes­terday, and formerly
resided at
Cedar City, but now is a resident of Beaver?

A:
I
am acquainted with him. Yes, sir.

Q: You
say your place of residence is about twenty-two miles southerly from
Pioche?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: When
did you first agree to become a witness in this prosecution?

A: I
don't know as at any time: I could not say as to that.

Prosecution:
We object to counsel asking that. There was an agreement that he should
come.

Defense: ·What officers of the
government, if any, have
You talked with before coming into this Territory, concerning this
case, and
relating to the ques­tion of your becoming a witness for the
prosecution upon
this trial?

Prosecution:
Objected to the question for the reason that he says - what
offi­cer have you
talked to - is immaterial.

Judge:
Objection sustained.

Defense:
Exception.

Q: Have you had any conversation with the
United
States Attorney or with any other officer that pretended to have the
authority
to bind the government to protect you from prosecution?

Prosecution:
Objected to unless it is confined to the U.S. Attorney.

Judge:
Objection
sustained.

Defense:
Exception.

Q: Have you had any conversation with the
United
States Attorney or either of his assistants previous to your coming on
the
stand as a witness in which conversation they agreed or either of them
agreed
that in the event of your giving a full statement of all you knew
concerning
the matter, the government would not proceed against you or your
individual
acts?

Prosecution:
We have no objection to the witness answering that question.

Witness:
Well, I say I have.

Q: Did they, or either of
them, agree to
enter a nolle
to the indictment against you, if you become a witness and tell all you
knew?

A: I
believe
so, I can show a paper further back than that.

Q: Are you here as a witness
by reason of any
agreement,
or any promise you have received from any person that you would not be
prosecuted?

A: No, sir. There was no
particular promise.
I came
voluntarily when I was notified.

Q: Did you expect, when you
came into the
Territory
last week, in the company of Mr. Cross, a Deputy Marshal, that you
would be
tried upon an indict­ment then pending against you for the acts
committed by
you at the Mountain Meadows in Utah?

Prosecution:
Objected to as
immaterial. Objection withdrawn.

Witness: I cannot say as I
knew what was
going to be
done; I came here to see the thing out, or see myself in or out; that
is what
I'm here for.

Q: I will
ask you if you agreed - what promises ha1'e been made you on behalf of
the
prosecution here?

Prosecution:
We object to that form of question, because they assume with­out
any foundation
of truth.

What
promises have been made to you on behalf of the prosecution or
else­where to
induce you to testify, and by whom?

Judge: What
promises, if any, were made to you; you can have a ruling on the
question in
that shape if you desire.

Prosecution:
Objection withdrawn.

Witness:
None at all.

Q: Were you not required to
testify to
certain facts,
and did you not agree to tes­tify to them in consideration for
being exempted
from prosecution on the indictment against you?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you not state to Mr.
Carey, the United
States Attorney,
what you could testify to previous to his entering the nolle in his
case or in
his presence?

A: I might have stated that
to somebody.

Q: I mean, Mr. Carey, the U.
S. Attorney
here. Did you
not have a conversation with him fully concerning the Mountain Meadows
Massacre, and tell him all about it after you arrived in Beaver this
time, and
before you were placed upon the witness stand?

A: I say yes.

Q: What promises,
if any, were
made to you in Nevada or California to induce you to come here to
testify?

Prosecution:
Objected to.

Defense:
I will
strike off the
word "testify."

Witness: There was no particular assurances
held out
to me, but I was requested to come forth to this court, if I was
required to
testify or whatever might come up. That is all I know about it.

Defense:
You say you have papers concerning this matter? What papers do you
refer to?

A: Do
you want
to see the papers?

Q:
Yes I do.

Defense: We ask leave to
have that letter
filed with
the testimony, as his tes­timony in this case, and to show the
reason why this
party is here. We offer the original, and file the copy.

Prosecution: Before they can
offer that, they
will
have to prove that that is the signature of George C. Bates, and to
prove that
he was the Prosecuting Attorney, and had the authority to write such a
letter.
He was not the Prosecutor at that time. Then again, this is written by
one of
the attorneys of record who may not have been the Attorney at that
time. The
letter was written in '71 by one of tire attorneys of this person. Now,
the
attorney at that time had no authority or control of the prosecution
and was made
long before this indictment was made. It was not addressed to him.

Defense: At the time this
letter was written,
he was
U. S. Attorney in this territory and practicing at that time; after it
was
written he was officer de facto, and performing the functions of
office Mr.
Carey is now perform­ing.

Q: Mr.
Smith, what place did you reside at immediately previous to your
start­ing to
this place?

A: Do
you mean now, at present, on corning here?

Q:
Where were you
when the
officer found you - Mr. Cross, Deputy U.S. Marshal?

A: In San
Bernardino County,
twenty-five miles west of Ft. Mohave.

Q: How
far is that point from Pioche, Lincoln City, Nevada?

A: It's
in the neigh­borhood of three hundred miles.

Q: How long did you reside in that place or
that
vicinity?

A: I have been in that vicinity, prospecting
and
mining, since the last of September. Not just at that place, on that
mine, but
in that country around there.

Q: This
place where Mr. Cross, or this party, found you? Weren’t you found
there last
spring?

A: The
twenty-third of March.

Prosecution:
I
cannot see the
relevancy of that testimony.

Q: How long since you
resided on the ranch
you spoke
of as being twenty-two miles southerly of Pioche, at the place
generally known
as Dutch Flat?

A: I stated before, about five years as
near
as I can
recollect.

Q: I think you
misunderstand me.
How long since last resided there -last time?

A: About
a year last July. I was down at the lower country.

Q: Two
years this July, do you mean?

A: No,
sir. About a year, when I came back.

Q:
Had you been
at that place
that you came home during that year; or have you been absent all the
time?

A:
All the time
absent.

[Attorney Bishop again
abruptly changes the
subject
back to the prop­erty of the emigrants that Klingensmith took
charge of, causing
him to reiterate what it was and what became of it. Then, just as
suddenly, he
returns to the previous subject. -ed.]

Q: Where
did your family reside while you had been out prospecting?

A: In
Dutch Flat.

Q: Any
portion of your family with you at the place spoken of as your last
resi­dence?

A: At my
mines? No, sir.

Q: Were
you a witness before the Grand Jury that found the indictment in this
case?

A: No,
sir. I was not.

Q: Have you ever been a witness or given
testimony
concerning this matter, in the Territory of Utah, previous to the
commencement
of this trial?

A: No, sir.

Q: You
say, in the country where you lived everything was done by virtue of
pre­vious
council.

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: You also stated that many
a man had been
"put
out of the way" as you had been informed, and that they had been put
out
of the way by virtue of council. State whether you were or were not
present at
any council when parties were ordered to put other men out of the way.

A: I was not. Never at any
time.

Q: You
say you took charge of the little children on the field the evening
after the massacre.

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: When
did you receive orders first to take charge of the children?

A: Right there,
from Higbee.

Q: Was it not arranged,
previous to starting
for the
camp, in forming the line upon the field, that you should take charge
of the
children after the adults should be killed?

A: Well, I can't remember anything particular
about
that; it may have been the understanding, but I had no orders till then
and I
went right to the wagons.

Q: You spoke of this wagon train numbering
about -
being from twenty-five to thirty. What character of wagons were they -
what
kind of make, wooden or iron axel?

A: I think they
were all wooden axels.

Q: What afterwards became of these wagons?

A: I don't know. They was left around the
tithing
office there, and afterwards, I understood, sold while I was away.

Q: Was
there any other vehicles of the train brought to you, except the
wagons?

A: No, sir.

Q: Wasn't
there some carriages of the train brought to you?

A: No,
sir.

Q: Are
you positive of that?

A: I
am positive of that.

Q: No
carriages?

A: No,
sir.

Q:
No buggy?

A:
Nothing of the
kind. No, sir.

Q: Did
you see anything of that kind in the train?

A: If
there was, I never noticed it.

Q: What did you do with the
guns when you
took charge
of the wagons and the children?

A: I don't remember of doing
anything with
them; don't
remember of there being any guns there; there might have been, but I
had
nothing to do with them.

Q: What
became of the guns that the emigrants surrendered?

A: I
don't know.

Q: Did
you ever see these guns after they were surrendered?

A: No,
not of
any that were their guns.

Q: Don't you know, as a
matter of fact, that
the guns
which tile emigrants sur­rendered were in the wagons with the women
and
children - in which you found the children?

A: If they were, they might have been
gathered up and
taken out to Hamblin's Ranch. I knew nothing about them.

Q: You also stated that many
a man had been
"put
out of the way" as you had been informed, and that they had been put
out
of the way by virtue of council. State whether you were or were not
present at
any council when parties were ordered to put other men out of the way.

A: I was not.
Never at any time.

Q: You
say you took charge of the little children on the field the evening
after the massacre.

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: When
did you receive orders first to take charge of the children?

A: Right
there, from Higbee.

Q: Was it not arranged,
previous to starting
for the
camp, in forming the line upon the field, that you should take charge
of the
children after the adults should be killed?

A: Well, I can't remember anything particular
about
that; it may have been the understanding, but I had no orders till then
and I
went right to the wagons.

Q: You spoke of this wagon
train numbering
about -
being from twenty-five to thirty. What character of wagons were they -
what
kind of make, wooden or iron axel?

A: I think they were all
wooden axels.

Q: What afterward became of
these wagons?

A: I don't know. They was
left around the
tithing
office there, and afterwards, I understood, sold while I was away.

Q: Was
there any other vehicles of the train brought to you, except the
wagons?

A: No, sir.

Q: Wasn't
there some carriages of the train brought to you?

A: No,
sir.

Q: Are
you positive of that?

A: I
am positive of that.

Q: No
carriages?

A: No,
sir.

Q:
No buggy?

A:
Nothing of the
kind. No, sir.

Q: Did
you see anything of that kind in the train?

A: If
there was, I never noticed it.

Q: What did you do with the guns when you
took charge
of the wagons and the children?

A: I don't remember of doing anything with
them; don't
remember of there being any guns there; there might have been, but I
had
nothing to do with them.

Q: What
became of the guns that the emigrants surrendered?

A: I
don't know.

Q: Did
you ever see these guns after they were surrendered?

A: No,
not of any that were their guns.

Q: Don't you know, as a
matter of fact, that
the guns
which the emigrants sur­rendered were in the wagons with the women
and
children - in which you found the children?

A: If they were, they might have been
gathered up and
taken out to Hamblin's Ranch. I knew nothing about them.

Q:
How much money
did you get
there?

A:
None.

Q: How much did
anybody else get?

A:
I didn't see
anybody else get
any.

Q: Can
you state anything about how much money was got there?

A: No,
sir. I never knew.

Q: I will ask you to state, again, how old
the largest
child was which was saved from that company.

A: It would be a hard matter for me to tell.
I sup­pose,
at the time probably, two years would have been the oldest.

Q: And how far was it from where the men were
killed
by your company to the place where the women were killed by the
Indians?

A: It was not a great ways; I could not tell;
we were
striding along between the women and wagons. I didn't think it was over
three
hundred yards maybe more, maybe less.

Q: What distance was there between the
nearest man -
the man furthest up to tile head of tile men's column, and the hindmost
woman
of the women that was killed?

A: I
could not
tell you.

Q: A
hundred yards? Two hundred yards?

A: I
could not remember such a thing.

Q: Walking over tile ground,
after the
massacre,
following the route along in the line that that train of emigrants had
passed,
leaving - finding dead men and coming up to the dead women, wouldn't
that
enable you to form a proper idea as to about how far you had gone?

A: I didn't take that line;
I went around a
little-I
didn't come in where the women lay.

Q: How
far did the wagon pass from your column?

A: They
passed by close to a little narrow valley.

Q:
Did the wagons
come as near to
you as the people did - as the emigrants did?

A:
I could not
say as regards to
that.

Q: Isn't it a matter of
fact, taking that
sheet of paper,
holding it, represents the field - corral being down at this point
(Illustrating), your men standing here, the men marching up to your
company,
coming in this way, and that the wagons that had children in them went
across
the valley in this way, in a straight line, striking the road something
like a
quarter or half a mile from here the corral stood, and coming up by
your
column?

A: No, I did­n't see it in that way; the
way that we
stood, and the way that we came, seemed to be a straight way up to the
emigrant
company.

Q: Didn't the
wagons with the
children in them pass right up close by you?

A: Close by me,
might have been
fifty yards - a hundred yards.

Q: Didn't the men walk right
in the tracks
of the
wagons?

A: They all moved along, and came a little
ways below
where we was - the men together up by the side of the wagons.

Q: Some
were following right after the tracks of the wagons?

A: Yes,
sir. Men fol­lowing.

Q:
How did you
say that the
wagons might have been a hundred yards off?

A: They might
have been coming
up.

Q: Isn't it a physical
impossibility that men
were
within eight feet of you and the wagons a hundred yards off? Tell me
how far
the wagons were from you ­ are the man that was there - tell me the
position of
these wagons, and the position that these men occupied.

A: I could not describe that, exactly.

Q: How does it come, Mr.
Smith, that you have
such a
vivid recollection of everything that you wish to testify to, but you
cannot
remember anything that I wish you to testify to?

Prosecution:
Objected to.

Q: How does it come that you
cannot recollect
where
the wagons were as well as where the men were?

A: I will tell you as near
as I can
recollect. As the
company came up the soldiers were here (showing) and marched along
together;
they kind of drawed up together, and the wagons got ahead in the road.
That
throwed them in that position (illus­trating).

Q: According to your best
recollection, how
far were
the wagons from you as they passed by? How near did they come to you,
where you
stood in the column?

A: I don't know that.

Q:
Did they come
within twenty-five
yards of you?

A: I
could not say that.

Q: Can you say
that they came
within a hundred yards of you?

A: I don't know
the distance.

Defense: That
will do for the
present.

Prosecution
redirect examination
of witness:

Prosecution: You stated in your
cross-examination that
there was some Indians - hostile Indians up there. If you know, state
how they
came to be there and what they were there for.

Witness:
I don't
know as I can
tell you anything about it; it was all rumor to me what they was there
for.

Q: Where
did you hear that rumor?

A: I
heard it out on the ground.

Q: From
whom?

A: From
Mr. Lee that morning that he went out.

Q: Did you hear
any soldiers on
the ground speak of it, and if so, what was said?

A:
I don't
exactly remember about
it. I might have heard it, but I don't remember.

Q:
What were they
there for?

A:
They was there
for to help
finish the massacre, as I supposed, so far as I know about it.

Q: Do you know anything about it?

A: At the time we marched up
- [they] was all
down
there before - and where the women was, more particu­larly - I saw
them come
out- (illustrating) there was the Indians.

Q: What do you know of their
being there -
the object
of their being there?

A: I could not say anything more than the
object was what
I saw - some of them doing the killing.

Q: Did
you hear anything said about it on the ground as to what part they were
to
take?

A: No, sir. Not
that I recollect.

Q: What did Lee say on the
subject?

A: He mentioned that they were out there at
that time
- these Indians, and that they had been working against the emigrants.
It was
reported that there were a hundred or so around there, and they had
been
shooting and working against the emigrants, and killing them.

Q: I wish now, to call you attention to the
conversation between Brigham Young, yourself and Mr. Lee - and state
that
conversation as you remem­ber it.

Defense: We enter an objection, as before, in
regard
to what was said. It is going over the same ground that he was examined
on
before in his exami­nation in chief

Judge:
What is your object in
going in to this again?

Prosecution: For
the reason that
the last statements made by the witness, in that conversation, he
related the
first portions of it and omitted the latter.

Judge:
I see no objection to that.

Defense:
Exception.

Prosecution: Now, then,
state what occurred.

A: Well, when I met Mr. Lee,
down at Salt Lake, as I
said before, as I understood, he was to go and tell President Young all
about
it. I think I asked him, "Did you tell him all about it?" I asked
him, "What did President Young say?" He [President Young] said,
"It was all right; it was all satis­factory."

Q: I call your attention to the conversation
I had in
Brigham Young's office.

A: That was afterwards. Mr. Lee, and Mr.
Hopkins and
myself was in his office, as I stated before. He took us to the barn,
showed us
his barn­yard and fine things, and then he took us in the house,
and mentioned
this thing himself, about this property. He said, "This property of the
Emigrants, Lee will take charge of it, inasmuch as he is the Indian
agent,
now." And then he turned around -looking around to us-and said, "What
you know about this thing, don't even talk about it among yourselves."

Prosecution:
That is all.

Defense: I wish to ask one question. You say
Mr. Lee told
you, on the ground, that the Indians had been attacking and fired upon
by the
emi­grants. Where was Lee when he told you this?