Echo and EB are actually some of the more interesting talents. EB just needs some tweaking to be good for enhance and resto. The overall premise is a good one though. They should have made it instant for enhance but on a longer CD and should have made it a faster cast time for resto and make it heal people or work like atonement.

Echo is slimmed down version of Elemental's mastery. It's almost as if Blizzard couldn't come up with another CD for the tier, so they just copied a mastery. EB doesn't do those things you mentioned, which is why I consider it lazy. They might as well make it an Elemental only spell at this point.

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Originally Posted by Maios

Our totems aren't traps.

Depends on the totem.

In all seriousness, Totem Projection actually works worse than Trap Launcher does. If it was as good as trap launcher, it would be a great passive ability for the class.

Totemic Projection and Elemental Blast could stand to be baseline.
Elemental Blast is a fine DPS talent though, and really is only out of place on Resto. A lot of people seem to not like the idea for Enhance but it really is good, a very strong spell as far as enhancement is concerned, a way to take advantage of every second Unleash Flame buff, a good spell to use Ancestral Swiftness on, comes with a random buff, and is even good enough to hard cast with 1 or 2 maelstrom stacks.

I used to cry that EB should be an elemental baseline spell, but they've made it really good for enhancement and now the problem is that it's really a dps talent.
The entire Tier feels lame for resto IMO though so I guess that's balance?

Echo is slimmed down version of Elemental's mastery. It's almost as if Blizzard couldn't come up with another CD for the tier, so they just copied a mastery. EB doesn't do those things you mentioned, which is why I consider it lazy. They might as well make it an Elemental only spell at this point.

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Depends on the totem.

In all seriousness, Totem Projection actually works worse than Trap Launcher does. If it was as good as trap launcher, it would be a great passive ability for the class.

In any case, it shouldn't be a talent.

I can agree that echo is another dragonwrath or ele mastery, but there are only so many mechanics to implement in the game. If anything EM and AS are less interesting cause they were already spells you had baseline before. Plus every class has those talents. I'll list them if you want. I just really don't think shamans have shittier talents than other classes

I can agree that echo is another dragonwrath or ele mastery, but there are only so many mechanics to implement in the game. If anything EM and AS are less interesting cause they were already spells you had baseline before. Plus every class has those talents. I'll list them if you want. I just really don't think shamans have shittier talents than other classes

Well the only point of reference I have is the Monk class. Monk talents seem WAY better than Shaman talents. Also Blizzard has been tweaking them throughout the expansion, while Shaman talents (for the most part) are the same as they've been since the beginning of the expansion. While I agree that there's only so many mechanics you can put in the game, Blizzard seems to have come up with some pretty darn good ones for the Monks.

I don't want to say that Shaman talents are shitty or crappy. I just feel that Blizzard isn't being as creative with the Shaman talents as they have been with other classes. I mean, is there are solid reason why Elemental Blast has a cast time and no healing component? That seems pretty weak for a level 90 talent. Also the only real talent redesign for Shaman was Rushing Streams, and that was changed because it needed to be. Meanwhile, Chi Brew, RJW, Healing Elixirs, Chi Burst, RoP, and Xuen all got redesigned or tweaked for Monks.

Well the only point of reference I have is the Monk class. Monk talents seem WAY better than Shaman talents. Also Blizzard has been tweaking them throughout the expansion, while Shaman talents (for the most part) are the same as they've been since the beginning of the expansion. While I agree that there's only so many mechanics you can put in the game, Blizzard seems to have come up with some pretty darn good ones for the Monks.

I don't want to say that Shaman talents are shitty or crappy. I just feel that Blizzard isn't being as creative with the Shaman talents as they have been with other classes. I mean, is there are solid reason why Elemental Blast has a cast time and no healing component? That seems pretty weak for a level 90 talent. Also the only real talent redesign for Shaman was Rushing Streams, and that was changed because it needed to be. Meanwhile, Chi Brew, RJW, Healing Elixirs, Chi Burst, RoP, and Xuen all got redesigned or tweaked for Monks.

I'd say the big difference is that monks are a brand new class. They don't have the problem of adding old spells as new talents that every other class has. Also, with a new class they simply have new gameplay options they don't have with other classes. Chi is a new resource and monks were changed so much since blizzard needs time to properly design a class.

Even considering how new monks are though, their talents aren't very unique or more interesting than other classes.

T1 is a movement tier. Paladins, hunters, druids and warriors all have a movement tier in T1. Even rogues and priests have movement related tiers.

T2 is a short CD ability tier. Hunters have two of those in T5 & 6, Paladins and priests have T6, and warriors have T5.

T3 is a resource tier. DKs have T5, hunters have T3, priests have T3 and rogues have T6.

I think you get the point. Even with monks being a 100% new class, blizzard still followed certain themes for the talent tiers. So I really don't have a problem with echo having been used for 1 class mechanic and 1 legendary mechanic before. If anything, I'd say that the tiers with the less used and more interesting mechanics tend to have more flaws. Shaman T3 and T6 for example try to be new and unique and it's been a problem so far. Same goes for druid T3 & T6, warlock T6, rogue T6, Mage T5 & 6, etc. You get the point though? Yes shamans have some issues, but so do other classes. Yes shamans have some bland talents but so do other classes.

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that the problem talents for shamans aren't even that bad. Echo isn't too bad and EB just needs some adjustments.

echo is one of the talents I really enjoyed when it was released and I still love it. it might be boring for some people and it might be only noticeable cause of another dmg number that pops up but hell I love it especially back in the legendary staff time^^
in the end it all comes down to personal opinions especially when we talk about shaman talents. so much people dislike specific tiers and find it full of boring talents and would like to see a lot baseline to mine surprise. for me a lot of that talents are ok. some need small adjustments, some should go baseline as I find no reason to take it at all (totem projection) as I prefer the other ones however would like to have it in some minor situations.

I always thought Elemental Blast would be cool if it was dynamically single target/AoE and worked for healing/damage like Penance. So if there's more targets within 5-10 yds of your main target, or whatever, it splits and reduces it's damage per target hit, but if there's no other targets within the specified range, it hits like it does currently. Target a friendly and it does the same thing, but with healing instead. Big heal on a single target, multiple lesser heals if it splits. Should still give you stat boost, but maybe change it to your highest secondary stat instead. Could also maybe mess with the duration of the buff, like so many seconds per target hit, minimum of it's current duration.

I'd be fine with making it instant as well, but would probably need to be balanced a bit on numbers if you made the above changes and made it instant.

I'd say the big difference is that monks are a brand new class. They don't have the problem of adding old spells as new talents that every other class has. Also, with a new class they simply have new gameplay options they don't have with other classes. Chi is a new resource and monks were changed so much since blizzard needs time to properly design a class.

Even considering how new monks are though, their talents aren't very unique or more interesting than other classes.

Oh, I never said they were unique. However, they are interesting. They may or may not be more interesting than other classes, but they're far more interesting than Shaman talents.

T1 is a movement tier. Paladins, hunters, druids and warriors all have a movement tier in T1. Even rogues and priests have movement related tiers.

Yes. Instead of a movement tier, Shaman got a Defensive CD tier. While its a solid tier, its a bit bizarre that such a tier even exists. Blizzard could have easily just made SBT a standard totem (its a buffed version of SCT after all). Shamanistic Rage could have been given to all Shaman Specs. Cancelling the need for an entire tier wasted on defensive CDs. A movement tier would have been far more welcome. A tier structured around Ghost Wolf or some other mechanic would have been very welcome.

T2 is a short CD ability tier. Hunters have two of those in T5 & 6, Paladins and priests have T6, and warriors have T5.

Actually Monk T2 is a healing tier. And its a very strong tier at that. Not only do those talents heal and do damage, they're absolutely free and benefit all three specs. I don't have much issue with Shaman T2, though I dislike that 2/3 talents replace existing abilities.

T3 is a resource tier. DKs have T5, hunters have T3, priests have T3 and rogues have T6.

Well T3 Monk is a very useful tier, and most Monks enjoy every talent in that tier. On the other hand, T3 Shaman is considered to be pretty jacked up tier that desperately needs revision. Monk T3 has gotten pretty substantial changes throughout this expac. Ascension went from being a mediocre talent to an awesome talent. Power Strikes gets buffed just about every patch, and now Chi Brew is getting worked on in 5.4.

Shaman T3? Nada.

I think you get the point. Even with monks being a 100% new class, blizzard still followed certain themes for the talent tiers. So I really don't have a problem with echo having been used for 1 class mechanic and 1 legendary mechanic before. If anything, I'd say that the tiers with the less used and more interesting mechanics tend to have more flaws. Shaman T3 and T6 for example try to be new and unique and it's been a problem so far. Same goes for druid T3 & T6, warlock T6, rogue T6, Mage T5 & 6, etc. You get the point though? Yes shamans have some issues, but so do other classes. Yes shamans have some bland talents but so do other classes.

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that the problem talents for shamans aren't even that bad. Echo isn't too bad and EB just needs some adjustments.

There are more problem talents than just those two.

I guess my point is that Monk talent revision has been ridiculous for the last few patches. In just 5.4 Monks received the following talent changes;

Talents
-Chi Brew now restores 2 Chi, has a 45-second cooldown (down from 1.5 minutes), and generate stacks of Brew/Teas based on the Monk's specialization.
Brewmaster: 5 stacks of Elusive Brew
Mistweaver: 2 stacks of Mana Tea
Windwalker: 2 stacks of Tigereye Brew
-Chi Burst no longer requires a target. It now travels as a 40-yard line in front of the Monk.
-Rushing Jade Wind replaces Spinning Crane Kick. The Monk summons a whirling tornado around them, dealing damage to nearby enemies (heals nearby allies for Mistweavers). Rushing Jade Wind lasts twice as long as Spinning Crane Kick, is instant, and not channeled.
-Invoke Xuen, the White Tiger now has a pet control bar for Xuen, and the talent is no longer on global cooldown for all Monk specializations.
-Healing Elixirs will no longer activate if the Monk is already at full health, and activate automatically when the Monk has less than 35% of their maximum health.
-Power Strikes will now activate from all Chi generating abilities; Jab, Expel Harm, Spinning Crane Kick (when it hits at least 3 targets), Keg Smash, Crackling Jade Lightning, and Soothing Mist.
-Ring of Peace has a new visual effect and now Disarm both enemies and those attacking allies within the Ring of Peace's area-of-effect for 4 seconds (up from 3 seconds); the Silence effect for casting spells remains unchanged at 3 seconds.

Pretty pathetic in comparison, especially when you realize that the only reason we got Rushing Streams was because of a massive community outcry. There was no community outcry to change Healing Elixirs, RJW, or Chi Brew. Blizzard just did it.

Etheral Shift: 1 minute cooldown
Ward your next two totems by shifting them into the ethereal plane, making them not targetable for 15 seconds, and count them as ethereal totems, not taking up any elemental schools while shifted

Totemic Empowerment: 30 second cooldown
Your next totem is empowered and gains an additional effect varying on totem

Given the recent buffs to resto I am somewhat doubtfull they will mess with Totemic Restoration like they said they were going to.

But since the numbers pass hasn't begun I supose the only thing a person can do is wait.

GC said on Twitter a few days ago they still plan to replace the talent. They don't necessarily need to replace it with a Resto buff; they could just put some other general utility talent in that tier. If they replace it with a range increasing type talent, it will immediately become mandatory, because CoTE is not very compelling, and Projection is a QoL thing that we can do without but should be mandatory.

They still do? Thats fine and dandy but what could they possibly come up with that could be useful for all 3 specs, specifically regarding totems? Unless of course they decide to rework the entire tier which is less likely to happen.

They should bring back Elemental Harmony, and they could introduce a talent that allows you to use a select group of totems twice before incurring their cooldown.

I don't see the usefulness of elemental harmony as ele. there are some spare situations where it is bad that some longer cd totem is replaced by some cd totem like you have earth elemental and have to use tremor.
it is usefull for healing cd totems for sure. but this effects mainly resto and will just create some op situations like slt and htt stacking. and that's it. water and earth. fire is not needed (fe and st... yeah) and wind only contains cd totems.
so for pvp it might be interesting but don't need it for pve. they better remove the one totem per element rule and make a lockout based on individual totems.

Would you stop with the "If class X got these many changes, why doesn't my class get the same"

Monks are a new a class, Y'know how many changes DK got from patch to patch in Wrath before finally settled down? A lot.

Honestly, other classes also got a fair amount of changes as well. I just focused on Monks because it's my only other level 90 character I have, and I noticed that they were getting a lot of talent reworks, while my Shaman was getting very little in comparison.

I don't see the usefulness of elemental harmony as ele. there are some spare situations where it is bad that some longer cd totem is replaced by some cd totem like you have earth elemental and have to use tremor.
it is usefull for healing cd totems for sure. but this effects mainly resto and will just create some op situations like slt and htt stacking. and that's it. water and earth. fire is not needed (fe and st... yeah) and wind only contains cd totems.
so for pvp it might be interesting but don't need it for pve. they better remove the one totem per element rule and make a lockout based on individual totems.

Also, they already tried in Beta having Call of the Elements allow 3 minute cooldowns to be reset (and I think CoTE itself was on a 5 minute or 8 minute CD). Being able to have double MTT/HTT/SLT turned out to be completely overpowered for Resto, but barely useful for the other specs.

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Originally Posted by Teriz

Honestly, other classes also got a fair amount of changes as well. I just focused on Monks because it's my only other level 90 character I have, and I noticed that they were getting a lot of talent reworks, while my Shaman was getting very little in comparison.

I am going to agree that Shaman changes for the last 2 expansions have seemed lazy and less frequent than those of other classes, and major issues have taken longer to resolve. The HTT baseline change should have been made 2-3 patches ago. There was no excuse whatsoever for it not to have been made in 5.2 when they bumped 25 man target caps for other similar raid CDs from 5 to 12 targets, and then used the "it's a talent so it's not getting the same treatment" excuse to screw us over for an entire patch. It wasn't hard to calculate the math around where Resto would be in 5.2 with the buffs given to other specs and us not getting anything, but all we got was "we think Resto Shaman don't need a buff in 25 man" and "we think Shaman are fine" responses.

I don't see the usefulness of elemental harmony as ele. there are some spare situations where it is bad that some longer cd totem is replaced by some cd totem like you have earth elemental and have to use tremor.
it is usefull for healing cd totems for sure. but this effects mainly resto and will just create some op situations like slt and htt stacking. and that's it. water and earth. fire is not needed (fe and st... yeah) and wind only contains cd totems.
so for pvp it might be interesting but don't need it for pve. they better remove the one totem per element rule and make a lockout based on individual totems.

I don't see how that would be OP. Those totems would retain the same CDs, and you can stack SLT and HTT right now since they are different elements. So if you decide to burn through all of your healing CDs at once, it would be the same healing output as if you staggered your healing effects. At the very least, Elemental Harmony would prevent you from accidentally overriding one of your totems by dropping another totem of the same element. And yes, it would be highly beneficial in PvP, and provide the class with a lot more flexibility with their utility.

For DPS shaman, the majority of the benefits would probably come from PvP, but I can think of several occasions while leveling where I wished I could drop SBT and Earthgrab at the same time.

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Originally Posted by tibbee

I am going to agree that Shaman changes for the last 2 expansions have seemed lazy and less frequent than those of other classes, and major issues have taken longer to resolve. The HTT baseline change should have been made 2-3 patches ago. There was no excuse whatsoever for it not to have been made in 5.2 when they bumped 25 man target caps for other similar raid CDs from 5 to 12 targets, and then used the "it's a talent so it's not getting the same treatment" excuse to screw us over for an entire patch. It wasn't hard to calculate the math around where Resto would be in 5.2 with the buffs given to other specs and us not getting anything, but all we got was "we think Resto Shaman don't need a buff in 25 man" and "we think Shaman are fine" responses.

And that change only happened after Shaman complained throughout the official forums. You know that Blizzard had no intention of changing HTT to baseline because they had just buffed it for DPS specs and nerfed it for Resto in 5.4. Their plan was to keep HTT as a talent the entire time. Only because the Shaman community raged about it did Blizzard finally give us Rushing Streams. That is absurd because HTT was clearly the most OP talent in that tier. It should have been clear to Blizzard that it needed to be removed for the reasons you describe, and by the ratio of specs choosing that talent.