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A Cappy of ANY build can use ANY of the Brother skills, whenever they need to. And in fact the Brother Skill should be chosen situationaly, so that the Cappy is assisting the person most in need of it at the time.

The revamp kills that dead. The very role Captains were designed to fill - On Demand Utility Support - will, in effect, be denied to them.

I won't say the sky is falling, but I'm actually pretty concerned about these updates.... more so than I have been about any updates since I began playing the game in SoA. The reason is, as many have noted, is that these upgrades seem to diminish our role in jumping into the gap when it when and where it was most needed: make up slack in healing, give the raid a burst of dps at a critical juncture, save everyone's bacon (IHW,LS) or just one persons (SoD). The on-the-fly flexibility of the captain seems to be being undermined here. I do not want to tank as well as a guardian or heal as well as a minstrel, or indeed dps like a champ. I want to be able to step into the gap and ensure that my group can succeed regardless of what goes wrong. That is what captains do (but are seldom noticed for doing). I hope, but am not certain, that it is what they will do after the update.

I won't say the sky is falling, but I'm actually pretty concerned about these updates.... more so than I have been about any updates since I began playing the game in SoA. The reason is, as many have noted, is that these upgrades seem to diminish our role in jumping into the gap when it when and where it was most needed: make up slack in healing, give the raid a burst of dps at a critical juncture, save everyone's bacon (IHW,LS) or just one persons (SoD). The on-the-fly flexibility of the captain seems to be being undermined here. I do not want to tank as well as a guardian or heal as well as a minstrel, or indeed dps like a champ. I want to be able to step into the gap and ensure that my group can succeed regardless of what goes wrong. That is what captains do (but are seldom noticed for doing). I hope, but am not certain, that it is what they will do after the update.

fun thing today when i was pugging farm OD wound T1. Tank's client crashed (yay) so i slapped on my aggro gear and was able to get aggro and tank 2 of the mammoths while the tank logged in again. one of my fav moments as a cappy.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

It never was.

It was always "Blade Bro or Go Home" with the caveat of "Our healer's a noob, go shield".

Let's completely ignore how you can abuse bugs with FB and pulling buffs from fellow members, shall we?

Go Doom&Gloom(TM) somewhere else, OK?

same pull when i had aggro i put song-bro on the mini. shield bro would not have helped as it doesnt affect me as much as the target. song-bro allowed the mini to pump out more heals to get everyone stable again while we waited for the tank to get back in. song-bro has its place and granted, it isnt used as often as the other 2, but to belittle it is to belittle every other rarely used cappy skill, which rarely used but there when you need it. which is what the cappy is all about.

I won't say the sky is falling, but I'm actually pretty concerned about these updates.... more so than I have been about any updates since I began playing the game in SoA. The reason is, as many have noted, is that these upgrades seem to diminish our role in jumping into the gap when it when and where it was most needed: make up slack in healing, give the raid a burst of dps at a critical juncture, save everyone's bacon (IHW,LS) or just one persons (SoD). The on-the-fly flexibility of the captain seems to be being undermined here. I do not want to tank as well as a guardian or heal as well as a minstrel, or indeed dps like a champ. I want to be able to step into the gap and ensure that my group can succeed regardless of what goes wrong. That is what captains do (but are seldom noticed for doing). I hope, but am not certain, that it is what they will do after the update.

Only time (or an NDA drop) will tell, I'm afraid =/

To be honest though, I think we're all on edge because of the scope of changes.

Originally Posted by blkplg13

same pull when i had aggro i put song-bro on the mini. shield bro would not have helped as it doesnt affect me as much as the target. song-bro allowed the mini to pump out more heals to get everyone stable again while we waited for the tank to get back in. song-bro has its place and granted, it isnt used as often as the other 2, but to belittle it is to belittle every other rarely used cappy skill, which rarely used but there when you need it. which is what the cappy is all about.

To put it bluntly, if you need Song Brother on a mini, it means the mini is (generally speaking) not pulling their load.

Compared to the other two Brother skills, only 2/3 of it is actually useful, and the Song Bro buff itself isn't as potent as it needs to be. I mean, for it to actually see some use they had to NERF Sheild Bro's Strength of Will, because Shield Bro just outhealed Song Bro at that point in time.

Granted, I did use Song Bro as the default solo healing skill, since most of the PUGs I ran with weren't quite awesome enough to use Blade Bro there, and the extra healing HoH brought helped ensure success. So it's not without it's merit, it's just that the other two options so badly outshine it.

Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

My biggest concern is that they are going to get things wrong in a way that creates a new dominant build. There was the era of HOH, the era of LOM, the era of LTC. Currently IMHO HOH is probably "strongest" with 4 Hyboldt/2 perserverence set, but LtC is more fun and is good enough for most content, so having 2 nice trait lines is above average. LOM is currently rather a failure (power issues, AOE aggro issues, excessive dependance on force taunts). I'd not be surprised if when trait trees first come out if there is a "best" setup that is a huge win. No, not on beta, no inside info of any sort. Just what I'm guessing.

I also share the fear that the lack of mention of the 5th Captain role, disaster prevention/recovery, means it will no longer be available. For me, nothing is quite as epic feeling as "bubble the tank, hit last stand/IHW, rez the healer, do backup heals while healer gets going again, etc".

But I'm not all doom and gloom. Shaking things up occasionally can be a good thing. We have some pretty useless skills, and the "more active" buffing sounds like it has potential as well. I like the feeling of the Capt now, I hope they don't mess that up too badly...

The Dev Diary post

The dev diary post is a little vague for accurate analysis. If you read it in it's entirety and take it into context it is formed very similarly to how it is now but with added skills(I assume for increased level cap) and Some gating(which already exists).

I would honestly need to see a picture of the new tree to get a good idea how it's effect on the captain as a class. I mean are we going to be just outright missing certain legendaries because they are gated in certain tree lines? Traditionally all three Capstones are gated that is a given, but each legendary that is unrelated to a capstone has never been gated. If they are gated it may cause havoc with there potential use, and furthermore there overall popularity.

I would also like to state as a whole my dislike of the conversion from a proven working system to the "popular wow archetype" that seems to be copied by so many other games these days. I think lotro managed to pave its own way in the world and copying other companies designs is taking a huge step backward.

I do however like that he is keeping captains on a no self heal basis that has always been the real killer reason why captains can't main heal. This remaining the same pleases me.

As for the notes on the other two lines I rather like it however I agree with several other posters that the healing line should not increase others healing powers but perhaps there incoming healing instead. This would assist both the captain and the target, not just the target. The same for the Tank line with increasing the defense of allies this seems rather silly unless your expecting your team mates to pull aggro. This also implies that you need to be a "tank" to support another "tank". Which on its own as an idea is rather silly. However I have been toying with this for a while, and found that two tanks can indeed support each other and form some sort of super tank especially if one is a captain. It works by using the tank line and focusing on passing aggro back and forth by always fighting over it(works best with a champ) and in this way you require no healers, only the captain, a champ, and dps. The captains while lacking main heals can effectively keep both himself and the champ alive through force taunts, aggro clears, and aoe spamming. (7 target PA)

This type of setup would greatly benefit from the defense and crit boost they are talking about. However no traditional tanking setup would benefit from this effect, it would need to be reworked if that is it's purpose. Certainly it would also come in handy to off tank boss's in raid battles but these are far and fewer between.

My only real concern is that turbine remebers that captains are innately balanced as a class before traits are even applied. We are generally good at everything, but never the best. I am hoping that they remember that as they do the changes, so that no 1 trait line is going to make us into something better then the class that was made for it. Or to put it another way, I never want to have to main heal because captain's "can" nor do I want to main tank because captains "can" or main dps because captains "can".

It may sound odd not to want those things but I have always found captains to be a quirky and lovable class with built in defects that just make you like them more. The ability to spread over a fellowship like peanut butter on toasted bread and smooth out all the flaws of your fellow party members is more valuable to me then main blanking anything.

Edit* I have always loved using my herald/archer herald and I am pleased that they are getting improvments. They have been sorely needing them for a long time.

My biggest concern is that they are going to get things wrong in a way that creates a new dominant build. There was the era of HOH, the era of LOM, the era of LTC.

That's always the fear for Captains, eh? Just something about the class, maybe the fact that we've always had our own little "Captain" role separate from everything else, seems to make us vulnerable to one-true-build scenarios.

I also share the fear that the lack of mention of the 5th Captain role, disaster prevention/recovery, means it will no longer be available. For me, nothing is quite as epic feeling as "bubble the tank, hit last stand/IHW, rez the healer, do backup heals while healer gets going again, etc".

Is it unavailable? Or has it just been rolled into Leader of Men? SotD is part of LoM now, for instance, and that's always been one of the classic "disaster recovery" skills. Seems reasonable to assume that at least a few the others are there, too.

One thing we don't know a lot about is how off-tanking will work with the new "passive threat" mechanics. Could it be possible to do a Leader of Men off-tank/disaster-recovery build without stealing aggro off the main tank? Hard to say just from the info we have now.

Of course, it could also be that the disaster recovery skills are spread throughout the trees. That's a safe assumption as well. It's hard to say for sure without Turbine publishing a finalised tree -- and since there are two full months of beta left, there probably won't be anything like a finalised tree for a while.

Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

To put it bluntly, if you need Song Brother on a mini, it means the mini is (generally speaking) not pulling their load.

Compared to the other two Brother skills, only 2/3 of it is actually useful, and the Song Bro buff itself isn't as potent as it needs to be. I mean, for it to actually see some use they had to NERF Sheild Bro's Strength of Will, because Shield Bro just outhealed Song Bro at that point in time.

Granted, I did use Song Bro as the default solo healing skill, since most of the PUGs I ran with weren't quite awesome enough to use Blade Bro there, and the extra healing HoH brought helped ensure success. So it's not without it's merit, it's just that the other two options so badly outshine it.

i was going for the 30 sec of +25% healing on the mini, who was pretty much healing the raid. soon as that was up back to shield bro for the 4% inc healing for the fellow. i should have done that the other way around now that i think of it, but hindsight is 20/20 :P

i was going for the 30 sec of +25% healing on the mini, who was pretty much healing the raid. soon as that was up back to shield bro for the 4% inc healing for the fellow. i should have done that the other way around now that i think of it, but hindsight is 20/20 :P

You basically wanted the To Arms from Song Bro, but the rest of the stuff from Shield was more valuable.

That just adds more evidence that Song Brother was badly broken and needed to be taken out back and have the ugly beaten out of it. Unfortunately, it was so ugly to begin with that there's not likely to be much left.

Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

You basically wanted the To Arms from Song Bro, but the rest of the stuff from Shield was more valuable.

That just adds more evidence that Song Brother was badly broken and needed to be taken out back and have the ugly beaten out of it. Unfortunately, it was so ugly to begin with that there's not likely to be much left.

The uses of song brother were always so rare and so pointless that it was hardly worth it to switch from one to the other. Shield brother however was perfect from a healers aspect, and blade brother was perfect from a dps aspect. Just like the third tactics buff it seems like there just not much past dps or defense. Because whatever it is always ends up being the third wheel.

The uses of song brother were always so rare and so pointless that it was hardly worth it to switch from one to the other. Shield brother however was perfect from a healers aspect, and blade brother was perfect from a dps aspect. Just like the third tactics buff it seems like there just not much past dps or defense. Because whatever it is always ends up being the third wheel.

Which is why we used it to troll people =P

Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

My guess based on the diary is that where going to end up with a lot of upset captain's at the end of this. Captain's have been in the unique position for a long time of being able to bring broad ranging buffs to DPS, Healing, and Damage intake reduction that have left us very much better than anything you can put in our place. My guess is we'll be forced to focus much more with an attended drop in overall power.

About time.

There was never any justification for captain's being so good for the group that you couldn't replace them with someone else and get different, but equally potent effects. And i for one won;t be sorry to see it go.

What i do worry about on a huge level however is how the changes to more active buffs are going to affect our solo'ing. We've always had the issue that to attempt to compensate for our buffing strength we've had weaker average damage and as such we've always relied somewhat on our multi-faceted aspects to help us out in a bad pull. RC for example is vital to this because it lets use heal ourselves easily in a bad pull. Obviously with the decreased power in area's outside our main and maybe better herald's we'll see this offset though somehow.

Also if a dev is reading this. Cappies will never use a Herald in an instance so long as thing's like eye's or AoE's can hit them. LM pet's get immunity to this for a reason.

My guess based on the diary is that where going to end up with a lot of upset captain's at the end of this. Captain's have been in the unique position for a long time of being able to bring broad ranging buffs to DPS, Healing, and Damage intake reduction that have left us very much better than anything you can put in our place. My guess is we'll be forced to focus much more with an attended drop in overall power.

About time.

There was never any justification for captain's being so good for the group that you couldn't replace them with someone else and get different, but equally potent effects. And i for one won;t be sorry to see it go.

What i do worry about on a huge level however is how the changes to more active buffs are going to affect our solo'ing. We've always had the issue that to attempt to compensate for our buffing strength we've had weaker average damage and as such we've always relied somewhat on our multi-faceted aspects to help us out in a bad pull. RC for example is vital to this because it lets use heal ourselves easily in a bad pull. Obviously with the decreased power in area's outside our main and maybe better herald's we'll see this offset though somehow.

Also if a dev is reading this. Cappies will never use a Herald in an instance so long as thing's like eye's or AoE's can hit them. LM pet's get immunity to this for a reason.

I wouldn't be so sure that's what's really going on, as you don't know how things are going to shake out.

I would **HOPE** that those in Beta are doing their part to make sure we keep our fourth role of support, but only a NDA drop can answer that.

Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

There was never any justification for captain's being so good for the group that you couldn't replace them with someone else and get different, but equally potent effects. And i for one won;t be sorry to see it go.

What..? We're the buffing class.. The justification is we can't dps like a champ, can't heal like a minstrel, can't tank like a guardian. We can heal some and damage some, potentially off-tank some at the same time. But how often do you actually need all 3 of those roles, and how do you build for maximizing 3 roles while not gimping your others...?

Point being... Just like the lore-master and burglar, one captain always justified their raidspot. The trouble was people felt like they needed 2.

The thing i've been mostly worried about is that they'll make us use LoM when we want to keep a tank alive. But LoM is our tanking line... So there will be a bunch of tanking or added survivability traits that will have no benefit to the captain, but are needed to help the tank. My fears may be un-justified, but i'm documenting them here if you have any comments about them.

The thing i've been mostly worried about is that they'll make us use LoM when we want to keep a tank alive. But LoM is our tanking line... So there will be a bunch of tanking or added survivability traits that will have no benefit to the captain, but are needed to help the tank. My fears may be un-justified, but i'm documenting them here if you have any comments about them.

I'm hoping that's not the case, and we'll be on par with a guardian or warden post HD.

Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

I personally don't want bows. Yes, sometimes a range attack would be helpful. But I like having classes be more distinct, and nothing about my feeling of what "Captain" is about applies to shooting with a bow from a distance.

If we need some more ranged damage, how about MOW making threatening shout do some damage or such... Or putting the DOT back on noble mark (perhaps just for MOW).