From: magidin@bosco.berkeley.edu (Arturo Magidin)
Subject: Re: homomorphic images of products of a group
Date: 19 Nov 1999 19:15:48 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.math.research
Keywords: varieties of groups
In article <377CF6E4.1EEEE3D9x@timesup.org>, Timmy B wrote:
>I am wondering whether anyone knows of concrete results about
>H P (G), the set of homomorphic images of direct products of G.
>For instance, in the abelian case it is the case that H(G) = S(G),
>i.e. all homomorphic images are subgroups and all subgroups are
>homomorphic images, so H P (G) = H S P (G), the variety of G.
Careful! H(G) is not in general equal to S(G), even for finitely
generated abelian groups.
Consider the abelian quasicylic group G Z_{p^\infty}; this can be
constructed as the subgroup (under addition) of Q/Z of all fracions
that can be written as b/p^a for some a>0.
Every subgroup of G is cyclic, and every cyclic group of order a power
of p is a subgroup of G.
However, every quotient of G is either trivial or isomorphic to G. So
S(G) are all cylic groups of order a power of p (including the trivial
group), plus G, whereas H(G) is only G and the trivial group.
For a finitely generated example, consider the infine cyclic group
Z. Then H(Z) is the collection of all cyclic groups (finite or
infinite), whereas every subgroup of G is either infinite cyclic or
trivial, so S(G) is only the trivial and the infinite cyclic groups.
I think S(G)=H(G) holds for FINITE abelian groups, though. It should
be enough to show it for finite abelian groups of prime power order.
>Cam one say anything else about this situation?
The operators H,S,P generate an ordered semigroup with at most 18
elements. Several things can be said, and you can find a diagram of
the resulting lattice in sundry places.
Look at:
Bergman, George M. "HSP \not= SHPS for Metabelian groups and related
results", Algebra Universalis 26 (1989) no. 3 pp.267-283
which has a diagram and some references regarding this lattice.
Check also
Neumann, P.M. "The inequality of SQPS and QSP as operators on classes
of groups", Bull. Amer. Math. Soc. 76 (1970) pp. 1067-1069.
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin@math.berkeley.edu
==============================================================================
From: magidin@bosco.berkeley.edu (Arturo Magidin)
Subject: Re: homomorphic images of products of a group
Date: 22 Nov 1999 17:57:34 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.math.research
In article <3837E585.103D8907@timesup.org>,
Timmy B wrote:
>Yes, thanks. I should have put in that I am, in general, interested in
>finite examples - something I almost always mean, and almost always
>forget to write in. But the infinite examples are interesting, thank
>you.
So, if you are interested in finite examples, are you considering the
operator P (arbitrary direct products), or the opreator P_f (direct
products with finitely many factors)? For a finite group, one can show
the analog of Birkhoff's theorem and prove that if you have a variety
generated by finitely many finite groups, then the finitely generated
groups in that variety are homomorphic images of subgroups of
->finite> I think S(G)=H(G) holds for FINITE abelian groups, though. It should
>> be enough to show it for finite abelian groups of prime power order.
>>
>> >Cam one say anything else about this situation?
>>
>> The operators H,S,P generate an ordered semigroup with at most 18
>> elements. Several things can be said, and you can find a diagram of
>> the resulting lattice in sundry places.
>
>I will do. Can anyone suggest a place where some results for these
>operators on finite groups might be found? FOr instance, when (other
>than for finite abelian groups) is HSP = HP?
It's actually a fairly strong condition, which you can see by looking
at the positions in the lattice of HP and HSP.
Bergman's paper (which I cited in my previous response) has a number
of references you might want to check out about the operators, and
results on when you get equalities and when you don't and so on; the
same is true of Peter Neumann's paper, which I also cited in my
previous response. Although many of those papers deal with the
operators from the point of view of General Algebra, you'll find
examples on groups scattered throughout.
(By the way, Bergman's paper has a diagram of the lattice generated by
the operators H,S, and P; a similar lattice is obtained if you replace
P by P_f).
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin@math.berkeley.edu