Watching Empire Strikes Back at the moment and this moment kind of stood out to me. Luke asks "But how am I supposed to know the good side from the bad?" to which Yoda replies "You will know. When you are calm. At peace. Passive."
How do you think this exhange is reflected in the prequels? Anakin certainly doesn't detect Palpatine's true identity until Palpatine practically spells it out for him. Even Yoda can't see through the 'shroud' of the darkside, and perceive Sidious for who he truely is. Perhaps because Sidious cloaks his force use, or perhaps because he doesn't physically use the force when the Jedi are around (although I get the impression he never stops being in tune with the force really).
Did Yoda fail by his own standards and learn from his mistake? Thoughts?

For the OT. When he stops himself from killing Vader. That might fit, but I am not sure.

For the PT. It isn't shown because Sidious himself is clouding the force, making it difficult for the Jedi to see things the way they are until it is too late. Of course you already went over this in your post but i was reinforcing it.

I think Anakin was never truly calm for these light/dark decisions. His mind was racing with emotions and desires. This is why we went on a rampage and killed the Tusken Raiders, Dooku, Mace,etc.

For the OT. When he stops himself from killing Vader. That might fit, but I am not sure.

Yeah, I know what you mean.
Another point this makes me think of is how much more obviously bad the bad guys in the OT were. Luke knew Sidious was evil going in, Vader - at least at first - is quite obviously completely evil. The OT was far more black and white than the grey introduced (mostly) by the prequels.

BoromirsFan said:

For the PT. It isn't shown because Sidious himself is clouding the force, making it difficult for the Jedi to see things the way they are until it is too late. Of course you already went over this in your post but i was reinforcing it.

It's re-ocurring... In AOTC Mace states it isn't in Dooku's nature to assasinate anyone, Obi-Wan doesn't believe Sidious controls the Senate, and Yoda ironically comments "Only the dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will". Completely oblivious to the fact that the Senate and the Sith are related. Also at the end of the flick he comments "The Shroud of the Dark Side has fallen", thinking the Sith only controlled the Seperatists.

BoromirsFan said:

I think Anakin was never truly calm for these light/dark decisions. His mind was racing with emotions and desires. This is why we went on a rampage and killed the Tusken Raiders, Dooku, Mace,etc.

True. Yoda's words "Calm, at peace, passive" definitely have relevance here. Anakin's turmoil of course affects his decisions, and his attempts to control and make his own destiny conflict with the passive state he needed to be in. The lines between good and bad are seemingly blurred, and he cannot distinguish Mace's actions from his or Sidious's.

I think Anakin was never truly calm for these light/dark decisions. His mind was racing with emotions and desires. This is why we went on a rampage and killed the Tusken Raiders, Dooku, Mace,etc.

Absolutely. Anakin was never "calm... at peace". He was always anxious, stressed, worried - about his mother and what might be happening to her, then about what he had done to the Tuskens, about his feelings for Padme and then his relationship with her. I can sympathise with him, and I also understand the need for Jedi to let go of such emotional attachments if they wish to attain the peak of their powers.

It emphasises the need for potential Jedi to be taken from their families at a very young age, right or wrong - hence why Anakin was considered too old to begin training. His attachment to his mother was already too strong, and he was probably too old for Jedi discipline to squash the raging hormonal desires that turn every young person into an irrational, idealistic, blindly romantic psychopath for about 6-8 years after they enter puberty.

To all of you on the boards who are currently within that window and experiencing the Madness of adolescence - you'll get over it, trust me, and when you're in your twenties, you'll cringe in horror at the memories of how ridiculous you were. I sincerely recommend deleting or burning all evidence of your passionate sincerity right now, unless you want some smartass 'friend' dredging it up in a decade. Burn those poems, delete those photos, and get a hold of all video evidence. Make no mistake about it, lads, that girl you're besotted with right now is going to get very fat &/or very boring.

Make no mistake about it, lads, that girl you're besotted with right now is going to get very fat &/or very boring.

The trick is to find the sweet, down-to-earth girl going through an awkward, geeky phase herself. Then, when she emerges from puberty as a beautiful woman, you'll be the guy who always cared for her, setting yourself apart from the guys who are all of a sudden turning their heads.

Note that Obi-wan goes through this as well in TPM. He attacks Maul out of anger and nearly pays the price. But once he calms himself, he's able to think and realize that he still has a chance. Luke realizes it because the last thing Palpatine says reverberates in his head and gives him pause. It is at that point when he is calm that it starts to dawn on him. Then he lets go of the rest of his negative emotions which you see happen right as he shuts down his Lightsaber.

Absolutely. Anakin was never "calm... at peace". He was always anxious, stressed, worried - about his mother and what might be happening to her, then about what he had done to the Tuskens, about his feelings for Padme and then his relationship with her. I can sympathise with him, and I also understand the need for Jedi to let go of such emotional attachments if they wish to attain the peak of their powers.

It emphasises the need for potential Jedi to be taken from their families at a very young age, right or wrong - hence why Anakin was considered too old to begin training. His attachment to his mother was already too strong, and he was probably too old for Jedi discipline to squash the raging hormonal desires that turn every young person into an irrational, idealistic, blindly romantic psychopath for about 6-8 years after they enter puberty.

To all of you on the boards who are currently within that window and experiencing the Madness of adolescence - you'll get over it, trust me, and when you're in your twenties, you'll cringe in horror at the memories of how ridiculous you were. I sincerely recommend deleting or burning all evidence of your passionate sincerity right now, unless you want some smartass 'friend' dredging it up in a decade. Burn those poems, delete those photos, and get a hold of all video evidence. Make no mistake about it, lads, that girl you're besotted with right now is going to get very fat &/or very boring.

Well said... both the Anakin observations and the advice (funny but true).

I'd say that Anakin knew. I don't just think that, we are shown that he knew. He knew it was wrong when he killed the Tusken families - and we know that because he told Padmé. He knew it was wrong to kill Dooku, and he tells us exactly that. He knew that it was wrong to want the powers that Palpatine had hinted about, and he tells Padmé so. He knew that he was wrong to have disarmed Mace Windu - and we know the reason that he stopped him, and it wasn't because it wasn't the Jedi way - he told Mace Windu just before he commits the deed that "I need him".

Yoda was right. You will know, Anakin chose his path knowing it was bad.

Absolutely. Anakin was never "calm... at peace". He was always anxious, stressed, worried - about his mother and what might be happening to her, then about what he had done to the Tuskens, about his feelings for Padme and then his relationship with her. I can sympathise with him, and I also understand the need for Jedi to let go of such emotional attachments if they wish to attain the peak of their powers.

It emphasises the need for potential Jedi to be taken from their families at a very young age, right or wrong - hence why Anakin was considered too old to begin training. His attachment to his mother was already too strong, and he was probably too old for Jedi discipline to squash the raging hormonal desires that turn every young person into an irrational, idealistic, blindly romantic psychopath for about 6-8 years after they enter puberty.

To all of you on the boards who are currently within that window and experiencing the Madness of adolescence - you'll get over it, trust me, and when you're in your twenties, you'll cringe in horror at the memories of how ridiculous you were. I sincerely recommend deleting or burning all evidence of your passionate sincerity right now, unless you want some smartass 'friend' dredging it up in a decade. Burn those poems, delete those photos, and get a hold of all video evidence. Make no mistake about it, lads, that girl you're besotted with right now is going to get very fat &/or very boring.

Well said... both the Anakin observations and the advice (funny but true).

Funny. I think one of the reasons some fans dislike Anakin (dialogue and acting aside) is that he's too human and probably resembles them at some stage in their lives.

Honestly, my younger cousins (now older than Anakin in AoTC) are more immature and whiny than Anakin or Luke, and with a lot easier lives.

I think what Yoda and Luke were talking about was internal, not external. Before the quotes in question Yoda tells Luke to "beware the dark side". Luke was asking how he would know whether his own feelings and actions were good or bad. When someone is calm and at peace, they usually think more clearly. Yoda was trying to teach him a tool for living life as a Jedi, for resisting the dark side.

I don't think Yoda was specifically referring to sensing the good or bad in others, which may be a bit more difficult.

Yoda was not able to sense the dark side in Palpatine, but then again Palpatine looked pretty damn calm and passive, didn't he?

Funny. I think one of the reasons some fans dislike Anakin (dialogue and acting aside) is that he's too human and probably resembles them at some stage in their lives.

Oh yeah. I'm sure many a SW fan back in the day thought they could identify with what they imagined Anakin Skywalker to be like - a decent, honourable and powerful person who simply made a few bad decisions and ended up as a dark, suffering figure, but still pretty awesome nevertheless, definitely worthy of redemption.
Instead, he was portrayed as something just a bit too close to the bone, the sort of hot-headed, obsessive, nauseatingly passionate & irritating adolescent most of us would rather forget we ever were. There's some bloody horrible dialogue in both AOTC & ROTS between Anakin & Padme, but the earlier scenes in AOTC are spot on when it comes to the sort of foot-in-the-mouth crap an infatuated teenager might come out with.

I think what Yoda and Luke were talking about was internal, not external. Before the quotes in question Yoda tells Luke to "beware the dark side". Luke was asking how he would know whether his own feelings and actions were good or bad. When someone is calm and at peace, they usually think more clearly. Yoda was trying to teach him a tool for living life as a Jedi, for resisting the dark side.

Yeah, that's basically what I was thinking coming across this thread today. I guess I kind of misinterpreted previously, and realised what Yoda actually meant more recently. Still, it's an interesting topic for discussion

Funny. I think one of the reasons some fans dislike Anakin (dialogue and acting aside) is that he's too human and probably resembles them at some stage in their lives.

Oh yeah. I'm sure many a SW fan back in the day thought they could identify with what they imagined Anakin Skywalker to be like - a decent, honourable and powerful person who simply made a few bad decisions and ended up as a dark, suffering figure, but still pretty awesome nevertheless, definitely worthy of redemption.

Maybe some, while others likely wanted a badass Vader hunting Jedi right from the start. Otherwise, why complaints about little Ani in TPM (who was a very decent kid, by the way)? What's interesting, folks seem to forget Anakin actually tries to do good for 2.5 movies (even helping some stranded strangers as 9yo slave boy). Unlikable =/= bad.

Instead, he was portrayed as something just a bit too close to the bone, the sort of hot-headed, obsessive, nauseatingly passionate & irritating adolescent most of us would rather forget we ever were. There's some bloody horrible dialogue in both AOTC & ROTS between Anakin & Padme, but the earlier scenes in AOTC are spot on when it comes to the sort of foot-in-the-mouth crap an infatuated teenager might come out with.

I thought their relationship in ROTS was believable. Even the infamous balcony scene could have passed with Portman looking better and without that "No, it's because I'm so in love with you" line. Even in AOTC, Naboo is kind of embarrassing to watch, but I liked the picnic scene as they actually had chemistry in that one.