As announced previously, the DreamHack Summer 2011 will feature a TDM 4v4 tournament. So far the rules and format are still unknown and the admins are looking into TDM maps to build their maplist. The goal would be to have 7 maps in the pool, with Grim Dungeons (dm14), Purgatory and Deep Inside (osp5) as the 3 core maps.

For the last 4 maps, the admins asked to run a poll on ESReality to get the input of the community. They selected the following maps for you to rank:

would like to see tornado and Dies Irae tried out, but the first major tdm lan in years is not the right palce to do so, especially with the questionable "new" weapons

that being said i also believe that we are seeing enough map classics with deep inside and grim dungeons already, so i would be most pleased if they just added dreadful place and hidden fortress and went for a 5 map pool.

if it has to be 7 total, then add intervention and realm of street rats and let go of campgrounds and retribution

QZDM7 used to be one of my favorite maps with the rail in dungeon. However now with weak mg&sg and rail at red I think its gonna play like shit. Red area is so strong compared to rest of the map (ya, sg, pg, rl) that you literally dont even have to come out for quad. Camp red, time mega.

Im not saying cpm4 is any good either though... except the quad setup is awesome

actually it will be harder to keep RA area now cause most players have MG at RA and guy maybe a rail. this reminds of me old q3 dm7's were it was cess fest and one of the best tdm maps something totally different then the other maps...

If you're going to have an old-school map, have DM7. MG is next to useless now, so I doubt sess RA with MG would be a valid strategy. Was watching an American TDM game the other night with Rapha, DaHang etc in it. Wasn't just a mix, they were on mumble. They played DM7 and although they thought the map wasn't great, the team that openly said their tactic was to MG sess RA got ripped a new one. Watching players from the team that were winning, they were more interested in picking weapons and taking yellows.

Campgrounds is like watching paint dry. Boring to play, even more boring to watch.

Sure, its crap if players dont bother to learn it, but it produced some really nice games as well (K1llsen-Rapha Gamescon final)

New maps need a chance, and if its in a major lan event, people are going to play it more regardless after the event than if it were not at the event at all.

If it does turn out to be awful, then it can just be dropped due to the 7 maps in the pool.

I can see both sides of the argmuent; I think maps will be picked up so much quicker if they are played during big events; if it's nice, it will immediately be put into online cups, and if its crap/questionable/obvious tweaks being needed (like battleforged), then it either gets forgotten about or modified to improve its playability. In short, progress :)

OR, we dont put it in the pool and its unproven for months until it slowly builds up a following, then is begged by players for months to be played in online cups, and it seems fifty-fifty whether it gets a fair chance or not.

At the very least, I find it difficult to argue that putting a fresh map into the pool at a large tournament slows the map's uptake/popularity

By this logic, I still think it was a good move to put battleforged into the pool at quakecon :)

it's usually the on-line cups/tournaments that follow the LAN map pools and not the other way around.
E.g. it took zotac ages to change from the boring iem map pool.

Although it depends on the organizers obviously. For example I think the TDM map pool for the FTP tournament by Perpetualwar was as good as it could be at that moment. But right now a map like tornado could easily replace "realm of steel rats", since giving it one look is enough to see it's 100x better.

Oh and this might be the first quakelive tdm LAN, but a lot of these maps have already been played to death on LAN in quake3. Ospdm5 meh.., osp6... zzZZzz, dm6 & dm7??? Don't make me vomit..

I know it's like that, but it should be the other way around. And sure it's the first TDM lan in ages, but there's maps like Purgatory, Dreadful Place etc. DM6 can fuck off but the other maps are still good to watch.

Open quad areas are bad. We don't want to create some more dm6's. I like purg but its quad area is far too open and results in the powerups death most of the time before it has exited the room.

TDM's highlight moments are the powerups. TDM requires more objective based elements, and to just throw away the powerup and make it less important turns the game to either more FFA or total standoff.

dm20, although a bit boring looking, has a great quad area for getting quad runs and setups. Dreadful place is also pretty decent.

Maps like cpm4 and osp5 are kinda the most open you should have the quad, where a strong setup should secure the powerup, but some amazing timed attacks can steal it from under the defenders watchful gaze.

You SHOULD be punished for not focusing on the major element of the map i.e. the quad. You should not be able to just wander in randomly last second and shoot it down from miles away.

hmm, even if more open/wide, I think you can have a much better quad setup where I moved it. It has 2 high and 2 low entries. The current quad is to small, cant dodge or anything, spam rockets in and be lucky.

If you want to talk about other peoples opinions which I don't usually do, but I'm quite sure you will find a few that would 'hate' dm6/dm7 as TDM maps in 2011, or even other maps, and I'm certain just as you said, some will also not like dm20!

what this poll does not show, is that if you browse around all the comments on this thread, people either hate or 'like' dm20, or rather, most people probably vote for it as the 7th map in the pool, because it is now in the wave to diss dm6.

I'm pretty sure though you won't get much chances to play it even one single time during that tournament, because people will just remove it, either because they just dislike it, or because you like it...

why hasnt tornado been tested so far? its like everyone saw the chain gun on it and decided o well its not worth it then. ur just going to drive good mappers like swelt away if their efforts go to waste without anyone even testing it.

u dont even have to play on it to tell that its miles better than shitty dm6/dm7.

yeah well, we actually played it quite a bit in #tdmpickup. problem is, the cg adds nothing to the map and is a total gimmick, still people refuse to play the map because of it. i dont know why swelt is so keen on cg's, its a meaningless weapon for sure while totally dragging the chances of this map down 8( he said its gonna be changed on focus forums though. cg might actually be a bit better now with the sg nerf, before the patch you were halfway to spinup and you died to sg

regarding tornado without cg, the map just feels soooo small for 4v4. its like hektik of tdm, but i guess replacing something like cpm4 with it wouldnt hurt

whys the fact that its small bad tho? it has enough weapons and it has really well designed rooms with good geometry and good connectivity between them. and it doesnt seem like randomly cessing would work either.

as long as games dont become ffa, which i seriously doubt they will because against a team in control of one side of the map you have no chance if ur a spawner, compactness and more action is a plus imo.

edit: ps its easily as big as dm6 and only slightly smaller than cpm4 i think.

Otherwise you get something like cpm4 where mg is by far the most powerful weapon, due to the large open rooms and there being no rail.
Since people spawn with a mg, it means it is actually better to die and respawn with a mg as to control a area. Which is retarded and makes a mockery of the goals of tdm, and is the reason it's such a bad map. (lower mg damage may have changed a little, but I doubt it)

Btw the mg is the number 1 reason why quake3/live tdm is so much less strategical compared to quake2 and quake1. They really can't nerf this gun enough.

I really don't understand how people can like DM20, especially the people who don't want DM7! Just a series of big rooms with the tiniest crappy hallways connecting them, with brute force and cess (maybe not so much now with nerfs) being the only option. TDM maps should be all about strategy and team co-ordination, great maps such as DM14!

We played it in a couple of pickup matches, and imo it wasn't too bad.
It plays like a really small map, with a lot of spawnfrags. The only area that is worth controlling imo is red armor.
I think the reason, why most people don't really like it is because it is quite small and it has a chaingun (which imo shouldn't exist on competitive maps).

Tornado is better than dm20 imo, and I think if someone removed the chaingun, it could replace dm20 immediately.