Texas Parks and Wildlife CommissionAnnual Public Hearing

August 28, 2002

BE IT REMEMBERED, that heretofore on the 28th day of August 2002, there
came to be heard matters under the regulatory authority of the Parks and
Wildlife Commission of Texas, in the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks
and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, Texas, beginning at 2:20 p.m. to wit:
APPEARANCES:
THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
CHAIRMAN: Katharine Armstrong, Austin, Texas
Ernest Angelo, Jr., Vice Chairman, Midland, Texas
Joseph B. C. Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas
Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas
Philip Montgomery, Dallas, Texas
Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas
Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other personnel of the Texas Parks and
Wildlife Department.
LIST OF SPEAKERS:
1. Ellis Gilleland, "Texas-Animals", P.O. Box 9001, Austin, Texas 78766
Matter of Interest: TPWD activities and responsibilities
2. Bob Nunley, Box 308, Sabinal, Texas 78881
Matter of Interest: Trans-Pecos MLD
3. Dan Allen Hughes, Jr., 307 Grandview, San Antonio, Texas 78209,
Matter of Interest: MLD Program for mule deer in West Texas
4. Mark Porter, Gator Farms, P.O. Box 1265. Anahuac, Texas 77514
Matter of Interest: Hatchings
5. Larry Tatom, Houston Safari Club, 4615 S.W. Freeway, Suite 805, Houston,
Texas 77027
Matter of Interest: Hunting in general
6. Derry Gardner, Texas Wildlife Association, 401 Isom Rd., Suite 237, San
Antonio, Texas 78216
Matter of Interest: Wildlife
7. Kirby Brown, Texas Wildlife Association, 401 Isom Rd., Suite 237, San
Antonio, Texas 78216
Matter of Interest: Wildlife
8. Gene Heinemann, Native Prairies Association of Texas. 4507 Sidereal,
Austin, Texas 78727
Matter of Interest: Native prairies for wildlife habitat
9. Pat Murray, Coastal Conservation Association, 6919 Port West Dr., Ste.
100. Houston, Texas 77024
Matter of Interest: TPWD involvement in water (illegible) reduction & crab
management
10. Dana Larson, 182 Lilac Ridge, Conroe, Texas 77304
Matter of Interest: Conversion of I-45 causeway rubble into artificial reefs
11. William Brad Woods. 214 South 21st St.. Temple, Texas 76504,
Matter of Interest: Shrimping (Sports)
12. Walter Zimmerman, Texas Shrimp Association. P.O. Drawer AF. Port Isabel,
Texas 78578
Matter of Interest: (did not indicate)
13. John Valentino, Eagle Point Fishing Camp, Inc., 16426 Clearcrest, Houston,
Texas 77059
Matter of Interest: License Sales-Speckled Trout
14. Leonard W. Ranne, Freshwater Anglers, 7880 Carr St., Dallas, Texas 75227
Matter of Interest: Outreach
15. Will Kirkpatrick, The Fishing Schools, Rt. 1, Box 138dc, Broaddus, Texas
75929
Matter of Interest: Freshwater fishing
16. Gary Van Gelder, 10919 Brit Oak, Houston, Texas 77079
Matter of Interest: Freshwater fishing
17. R.C. Blundell,Central TX Association of Bass Clubs, 6204 Dove CT, Austin,
Texas 78744
Matter of Inerest: Grass Carp (Against)
18. Ed Parten, TBBU, 110 Lisa Lane, Kingwood, Texas 77339
Matter of Interest: Inland Fisheries
19. Jim Murray, Falcon Lake & Zapata County Chamber of Commerce, P.O. Box 284,
Margarita Road & Hwy. 83, Falcon Heights, Texas 78545
Matter of Interest: Falcon Lake quality of fishing, assess, and enforce of
existing regulations
20. Elroy Krueger, The Average Fisherman, HCR 71, Box 49, Three Rivers, Texas
7801
Matter of Interest: Stat of freshwater fishing
21. Larry Bridgeman, Falcon Lake (illegible), 2195 S. Hwy. 83, Box F-10,
Zapata, Texas 78076
Matter of Interest: Economics of deterioration of Falcon Fishery
22. Frank Goll, Texas Association of Bass Clubs, 3846 Briarhaven, San Antonio,
Texas 78247
Matter of Interest: TPWD stocking of Texas lakes
23. Ron Werner, April Plaza Marina, Inc., P.O. Box 9071/17742 Hwy. 105 W.,
Montgomery, Texas 77356
Matter of Interest: Against -- Loss of revenue
24. David Stewart, SMART, 3415 Shenandoah Dr., Cedar Park, Texas 78613
Matter of Interest: Inland Fisheries
25. Karen Hadden, SEED Coalition, 611 S. Congress, #200, Austin, Texas 78704
Matter of Interest: Mercury contamination of fish, notification of fish
consumption advisories/bans posting of signs-Web-site link to Dept. of Health-
please improve
26. Pam Lawrie, Hunters for the Hungry, 2512 IH 35 South, Austin, Texas 78704
Matter of Interest: For -- Hunters for the Hungry
27. Scott Thrash, Hunters for the Hungry, 2512 IH 35 South, Ste. 100, Austin,
Texas 78704
Matter of Interest: Hunters for the Hungry
28. Jaye Lycan, Hunters for the Hungry, 2512 IH 35 South, Ste.100, Austin, TX
78704
Matter of Interest: Hunters for the Hungry
29. Sylvan Rossi, Korima Foundation, 9350 Adagio Lane, Houston, Texas 77040
Matter of Interest: Inner City youth participation state parks
30. Jim Carr, Korima Foundation, 1019 Valley Acres Rd., Houston, Texas 77062
Matter of Interest: (did not indicate)
31. Art Pasley, Cast for Kids, 1529 Sunview Dr., Dallas, Texas 75253
Matter of Interest: Outreach funds
32. Helen Holdworth, Texas Brigades, 401 Isom Rd., Suite 237, San Antonio,
Texas 78216
Matter of Interest: Brigades and cooperative education
33. Whitney Marion, Texas Brigades, 401 Isom Rd., Suite 237, San Antonio,
Texas 78216
Buckskin Brigades & Youth conversation education
34. Anson Howard, Texas Brigades-A Cooperative Education Program, 401 Isom
Rd., Ste. 237, San Antonio, Texas 78216
Matter of Interest: Bobwhite Brigade & Youth Education Initiatives
35. Dr. Robert Brown, Texas A&M University, 2258 TAMU, College Station, Texas
77843-2258
Matter of Interest: TPWD support of research and education
36. Neal Wilkins, Texas A&M University, Texas Cooperative Extension, 2258
TAMU, College Station, Texas 77843-2258
Matter of Interest: Outreach
37. Susie Marek, Friends of Inks Lake State Park, 1316 E. Logan St., Round Rock,
Texas 78664
Matter of Interest: Against -- Friends future
38. Jeannie Dullnig ,Stewards of the Nueces, 4 Dorchester Place, San Antonio,
Texas 78209 Matter of Interest: Protection of state owned rivers
39. John O. Robinson, 6712 N.E. Dr., Austin, Texas 78723
Matter of Interest: Against -- Motorized vehicles using river beds
40. Hugh "Preston" Perron, Llano River, 11800 E. St. Hwy. 29, Llano, Texas
Matter of Interest: Against -- Motor vehicles on river
41. Trey Berndt ('Burnt), 8859 Mt. Ridge Circle, Austin, Texas 78759
Matter of Interest: Off road vehicles in streambeds
42. Sky Lewey, Nueces River Authority, Box 349, Uvalde, Texas 78801
Matter of Interest: Against -- in state streams
43. Charles Draper, Steward of Nueces, 4609 Trail Crest Circle, Austin, Texas
78735
Matter of Interest: 4X4 in river basin
44. Susanna Freduig, Stewards, P.O. Box 1, Uvalde, Texas 78802
Matter of Interest: Keep out of river!
45. David K. Langford, Texas Wildlife Association
Matter of Interest: Riverbed & thanking Commission
46. Bobby Beamer, TMTC & NOHVCC, 3310 Long Shadows, Spring, Texas 77380
For
Matter of Interest: OHV Parks-RTF-Item #7
47. Allen L. Mize, 112 Larkspur, Uvalde, Texas 78801
Matter of Interest: For regulating -- Nueces River off road vehicle abuse
48. Carol L. Smith, AMA Community Council-TX Hill Country, 1440 CR 270, Mico,
Texas 78056
Matter of Interest: Against -- ORV's in Riverbeds
49. Nick Smith, AMA, 1440 CR 270, Mico, Texas 78056
Matter of Interest: Against --
50. George Garner, Public Lands, 123 W. Hutchins, San Antonio, Texas 78221
Matter of Interest: Public Lands
51. Raynice Shudde, Stewards of the Nueces, 111 Bent Oak Trail, Uvalde, Texas
78801
Matter of Interest: Protecting the Nueces-restrictions-vehicles in rivers
52. Heinz Aeschbach, Frequent park user, citizen interested in environment and
quality of life, 2102 A Hemedale Dr., Austin, Texas 78704 Testify:
Matter of Interest: Problems with TX Parks & Wildlife Department Land &
Water Resources Conservation Recreation Plan
53. Margaret Aeschbach, Concerned Citizen, 2102 A Homedale Dr., Austin, Texas
78704
Matter of Interest:
1. Land and Water Conservation & Recreation Plan
2. McKinney Falls State Park
54. Kyle McCain, City of Mejia, 101 S. McKinney/P.O. Box 207, Mejia, Texas
76667
Matter of Interest: # 15 For keeping it a State Park; Land and Water Resources
Conservation Recreation Plan. Confederate Reunion Ground
55. Janice Bezanson, Texas Committee on Natural Resources, 601 Westlake Dr.,
Austin, Texas 78746
Matter of Interest: Plan, general
56. Terry Colley,-Deputy Executive Director, Texas Historical Commission, P.O.
Box 12276, Austin, Texas 78711
Matter of Interest: Nuetral -- Historic Sites
57. Jay Kane, Native Prairie Association of Texas, 8565 Red Willow Dr.,
Austin, Texas 78736
Matter of Interest: Conservation easements
58. Mary Tallent, 406 N. Cummings, Alvarado, Texas 76009
Matter of Interest: Mejia State Park
59. Jack Love, P.O. Box 6301, Mico, Texas 78056
Matter of Interest: Fences-Public access-Diverse Lake-Medina County
60. Wright Friday, Stewards of Nueces, P.O. Box 1, Uvalde, Texas 78801
Matter of Interest: Against -- ORV traffic rivers-keep out!
61. Dianne Wassenich, San Marcos River Foundation
Matter of Interest: Water, Rivers, 4X4's in rivers
1
PUBLIC HEARING
2:20 p.m.
1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: This meeting is
2 called to order. Before proceeding with any business, I
3 believe Mr. Cook has a statement to make.
4 MR. COOK: Madamee Chairman. Thank you
5 very much. A public notice of this meeting containing
6 all items on the proposed agenda has been filed in the
7 office of the Secretary of State, as required by Chapter
8 551, Government Code referred to as the Open Meetings
9 Law. I would like for this action to be noted in the
10 official record of this meeting. Throughout this
11 meeting, a few rules and guidelines that we'll go by,
12 folks. An individual wishing to speak before the
13 Commission should fill out a -- one of the little forms
14 that we have here and submit them to us so that we can
15 call your name and get you up here to speak. We welcome
16 you here. Each person will be allowed to speak, one at
17 a time, from the podium when recognized by the chairman.
18 Speaking time may be limited either due to the unusual
19 large number of persons wishing to speak, the long
20 agenda, or any other reason being necessary by the
21 chairman. What we are going to do is -- we're going to
22 allow you about three minutes -- this old clock
23 here -- timing is important. So if you will -- in
24 order that we get time for everyone to speak and be
25 heard. If you will please kind of follow this little
2
1 clock here. Any written documents that you may have or
2 the Commission should be given to department staff --
3 take them immediately to my right here. If a
4 commissioner asks a question or wants to discuss among
5 themselves about the topic, that time will not be
6 counted against you. The chairman is in charge of the
7 meeting and will direct the order of the meeting and
8 recognize the people to be heard. When your name is
9 called, please come to the podium, state your name, who
10 you represent, if anyone other than yourself. Please
11 limit your remarks to the item that you signed up for.
12 In case of the annual public hearing, you may speak on
13 any item that you are here today for -- you may speak
14 on any item within the jurisdiction of this commission.
15 Profanity, heckling, threatening, or abusive language,
16 shouting or any other disruptive or defensive behavior
17 will be grounds for immediate ejection from the meeting.
18 Madamee Chairman.
19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Mr. Cook.
20 I will mention two names at a time so that the person
21 following the person speaking has time to prepare to
22 come forward. The first speaker will be Ellis
23 Gilleland, followed by Bob Numley.
24 MR. GILLELAND: My name is Ellis
25 Gilleland, a private citizen. I'm speaking for
3
1 "Texas-Animals" myself. "Texas-Animals" is an animal
2 rights organization on the internet. I've given you a
3 handout. The handout is a copy of a letter that I sent
4 to each one of you already on the 9th of August by
5 certified mail. This is a letter which has two
6 attachments. The first attachment is a letter that I
7 wrote to Colonel Stinebaugh requesting that I be allowed
8 to present evidence of poaching at Choke Canyon State
9 Park to him. That was the 19th of June. He denied that
10 request. He will not accept evidence and testimony of
11 poaching. I then wrote a letter, certified letter,
12 which you have in your hand, dated the 29th of July, to
13 Director Cook. And I again asked for an appointment to
14 submit evidence to him in regard to poaching by
15 Texas Parks and Wildlife officials at Choke Canyon
16 State Park. I asked to make a sworn statement. I asked
17 to present physical evidence of the poaching. And I
18 asked to show the videotape, which backs up my sworn
19 statement. He denied that. He would not give me access
20 to him to present the information to him. I then turned
21 to the Parks and Wildlife Commission, yourselves, on the
22 9th of August with a letter certified mail. The title
23 is, request for appointment to present various evidence
24 of poaching at Choke Canyon State Park by Texas Parks and
25 Wildlife officials. I, again, asked for permission to
4
1 make a sworn statement to you to present physical
2 evidence and make a sworn statement. And all I have
3 received from you is silence. I have received no answer
4 back from any of you.
5 And I'd -- like I'd like to point out one
6 thing. That you people are deaf on some yahoo in East
7 Texas that's poaching a whatever. But when it comes to
8 your own people, it's just like Enron, Worldcom,
9 whoever. All these people that are following all sorts
10 of unethical practices as a corporate business is being
11 done right here, too. You're very stringent on people
12 that are not a member of your organization, but you're
13 not cleaning up your own house. You're allowing your
14 own officials less than 200 yards, between 100 and 200
15 yards, from the park director's house is where all this
16 poaching is going; on white-tailed deer, dove, quail,
17 you name it. I, again, ask you for permission to
18 present this information to you. And hang me by my
19 thumbs if you find that I'm lying to you. Thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Bob Nunley,
21 Dan Allen Hughes, Jr.
22 MR. NUNLEY: My name is Bob Nunley. I'm
23 a rancher from south Texas. We also operate in the west
24 Texas panhandle. I'm here to request the MLD permits
25 and extended seasons be made available to the
5
1 Trans-Pecos region. It's -- the MLD is a tool we've
2 used in south Texas with great success. We just would
3 like to have it available out west. We know it's been
4 tried -- or various other approaches have been tried
5 before. But we feel like the MLD with its limits to the
6 harvest and the extended season addresses a lot of the
7 complaints out there. The extended season allows us to
8 do a better job of harvesting the property, rather than
9 trying to do everything in a two-week, three-weekend
10 season. I'd like to see an extended season possibly as
11 much as the white -- running concurrently with the
12 white tail season that is already in west Texas. That's
13 basically my request.
14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
15 Mr. Hughes. Then Mark Porter.
16 MR. HUGHES: I'm Dan Allen Hughes. I'm
17 from San Antonio. And as Mr. Nunley just proposed, I'd
18 like to make the same proposal, that the commission
19 consider extending the MLD Program, Managed Land Deer
20 Program, to west Texas for mule deer. In 1996 when the
21 MLD program was originally proposed, mule deer were
22 include in the original proposal. But there was quite a
23 bit of opposition to that in west Texas at that time.
24 The hearing didn't go over very well. I think through
25 education process and through just learning more about
6
1 what the program is about, the ranchers in west Texas
2 landowners are now in favor of the -- of MLD. Two of
3 the things I don't think they understood in the
4 originally -- was, first of all, this is a voluntary
5 program. If you don't want your ranch to be in this
6 program, you don't have to. The second thing I heard
7 from several landowners is, well, we're going to give
8 you a longer season and you're going to wipe out all
9 your deer. Well, there's nothing further from the
10 truth. MLD is going to require a biologist to survey
11 your property. You're going to have permits given as
12 per the biologist's recommendation. So there's really
13 very little chance of over harvesting the deer.
14 Actually, today, under the 16-day season, any -- any
15 hunter -- every hunter can kill one mule deer. But
16 there's no limit to how many hunters can come on any
17 ranch. So I could take a hundred hunters to my ranch to
18 shoot a hundred deer if I wanted to. That's not --
19 under the MLD, you're going to have permits. You're
20 going to be restricted to the number of deer you could
21 harvest. I, like Mr. Nunley, also think a good season
22 would be to run concurrent with the white-tail season in
23 west Texas, which this year is November the 2nd to
24 January the 5th. Thank you, very much.
25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I would encourage
7
1 you all to be in touch with the Trans-Pecos advisory
2 group which I formed about a year ago to address such
3 issues and air these sort of things. You -- these are
4 folks you know and I think Mr. McCarty could help you
5 get the telephone numbers to -- to get in touch with
6 those folks.
7 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Madame Chair.
8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner
9 Fitzsimons.
10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: If I may -- and
11 this may be a question for Jerry Cooke, if he's there.
12 But I understand that MLDs would require a wildlife
13 management plan, and our goal to is to increase the
14 number of wildlife management plans in the Trans-Pecos
15 area.
16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: That's correct.
17 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Is that right,
18 Gary, it would require that?
19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I think it would be
20 very difficult to increase our wildlife management plan
21 from 14 million to 28 million over the next ten years
22 without the cooperation of the Trans-Pecos.
23 Mark Porter and Larry Tatom.
24 MR. PORTER: I'm here on behalf of
25 alligator hatchlings. I want to be able to sell them
8
1 out of state. I'm kind of nervous.
2 Anyway, first of all, I am Mark Porter.
3 I'm one of four farmers probably left in the state of
4 Texas. I'm the alligator nuisance control, basically,
5 for the state of Texas. I'm the only processing plant
6 left in the state of Texas. One of two buyers left in
7 the state of Texas. And one of three egg gatherers left
8 in the state of Texas. The alligator business isn't
9 thriving. And I would like to -- the law was passed
10 years ago that we couldn't sell hatchlings out of state
11 without the board's permission or something like that.
12 And, by being able to sell hatchlings out of state, I
13 can get more for them. And we're able to take
14 hatchlings from out of state into Texas from Louisiana,
15 and we need to keep that open, too. And if I can't go
16 with my hatchlings into Louisiana and keep some of these
17 guys happy, they may shut there's down coming into us.
18 And the few farmers we do have left in the State of
19 Texas are able to -- well, they need more than what the
20 egg gatherers can supply. The three egg
21 gatherer's this year, we may get 10,000 eggs. And one
22 of the farms is wanting 20,000. So if he couldn't get
23 his from out of state, he would be kind of dead in the
24 water on his farm growing. But I need to be able to
25 move them out of state because I can get a little more
9
1 for them. And you've got to work with Louisiana because
2 they're the big dog and we're the little tip of the
3 tail. And they've got it to where I can't hardly move
4 my farm gators because they'll grade them down. But if
5 I could sell them hatchlings, they may be able to let me
6 move my farm gators a little bit.
7 Anyway, I just want -- would like for it
8 it come up that I could move hatchlings out of state, if
9 we could get that on the document or something. Thank
10 you, very much.
11 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you,
12 Mr. Porter.
13 Larry Tatom and then Derry Gardner.
14 MR. TATOM: Madame Chairman, members of
15 the commission. My name is Larry Tatom. I'm the
16 executive director of the Houston Safari Club. I'm here
17 today to acknowledge and appreciate the efforts of the
18 department for improving youth hunting opportunities
19 across the state. Houston Safari Club has been involved
20 with Texas Parks and Wildlife and also especially with
21 the Operation Game Thief program, since it began. And,
22 in fact, our treasurer, Ray Petty, was the coordinator
23 for the most recent Operation Game Thief fund raiser in
24 Houston.
25 On a personal note, I was a Texas Parks
10
1 and Wildlife employee, although it was a number of
2 decades ago. And I'd like to say, personally, that I
3 appreciate the work of the employees across the state.
4 We thank you for the work you're doing for sportsmen and
5 for improving hunting opportunities for all Texans.
6 Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: And we thank you.
8 Derry Gardner, please and then
9 Kirby Brown.
10 MR. GARDNER: Madame chairman,
11 commissioners, I thank you for the opportunity to be
12 here. I'm also here to thank y'all all for a wonderful
13 job you've been doing. I appreciate everything that
14 you've done with us and partnerships at TWA. We have
15 over 5,000 members, and they all appreciate it. We
16 appreciate partnerships with the Texas Big Game Awards
17 and the Youth Hunting Program.
18 Madame Chairman, on a personal note, I
19 appreciate you spending time with us at our convention,
20 and my family and I appreciate that. One other thing
21 that I want to thank y'all very much for is not getting
22 too mad at us for stealing Kirby away. We appreciate
23 having him and thank y'all, very much.
24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Speaking of Kirby,
25 and then Gene Heinemann.
11
1 MR. BROWN: Thank you, very much. My
2 name is Kirby Brown. I'm the executive vice-president.
3 Derry is our current president. He didn't mention that,
4 but does a great job for us. Madame Chairman,
5 commissioners, on behalf of the Texas Wildlife
6 Association, I too just want to echo what Derry said.
7 Thanks so much for your continued cooperation and help
8 in all the wildlife issues that we have in Texas. Y'all
9 have done an incredible job in dealing with some very
10 difficult issues. And especially with CWD as the most
11 recent example of how to work cooperatively with people
12 and move forward in a really, I guess, partner fashion
13 in how we did that. And we really do appreciate that.
14 And speaking of partnerships, the
15 partnerships that we have with the Texas Big Game Awards
16 and seeing these incredible heads out here in the
17 hallway. It's just great to see that, because of the
18 quality of land management and habitat management that
19 went into that on those lands. And many of those deer
20 and antelope do not have any high fences. Okay? So
21 there's no reason to worry about that. It's the habitat
22 management that's going on that creates those types of
23 animals, good wildlife and population management. And I
24 want to recognize Gary Graham and Mike Berger and also
25 TPWD employee, Jerry Warden, who heads up our Texas Youth
12
1 Hunting program, another great partnership that we have
2 together. And we really appreciate that partnership and
3 the amount of work that's gone into taking kids into
4 hunts in the field and appreciate several of you on the
5 commission that have asked the kids to come out on your
6 ranches and be a part of that Youth Hunting Program.
7 It's a great opportunity.
8 And then we're looking forward to a
9 partnership in education, in the education arena. And I
10 appreciate Steve Hall and Nancy Herron who are hiring a
11 new employee here in the next -- well, I don't know when
12 it will be announced but sometime soon. That
13 employee -- we've offered a place in our office for the
14 employee to create a closer partnership on that
15 education initiative and in working with you and other
16 education initiatives that are coming out. We're
17 looking forward to that. And we just appreciate all
18 that you've done and thank you, very much.
19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Gene Heinemann and
20 then Pat Murray.
21 MR. HEINEMANN: Madame Chairman,
22 commission members, I'm Gene Heinemann with president of
23 The Native Prairie Association. And I'd like to, as
24 some of the others have done, commend you for all the
25 good programs you have and all the hard work you and
13
1 your staff have done. It makes a lot of difference.
2 And particularly I've notice that in the last few years,
3 particularly the wildlife tax exemption has really made
4 a big difference. And that's something that we, as the
5 Prairie Association, are really working hard at. And we
6 kind of formed the basis for wildlife habitat in that
7 we're going out and securing the plant material
8 for -- to restore wildlife habitats. And, in particular,
9 we have started these tall grass prairie remnant
10 surveys, which we already mapped a few counties. But it's going
11 to take us a long time to map 30 more counties in the
12 state. And we'd like to encourage y'all to help or
13 takeover this process of doing the rest of the surveys.
14 You know, it takes about $3,000 to do a county. And --
15 but this is a basis for having enough plant material to
16 restore Wildlife habitats. And to follow up with that
17 conservation easements are what we're trying to do, to
18 get -- to secure some of these remnant prairie --
19 prairies that we're surveying. And this is something
20 that's going to take a lot of time, a lot of funds to
21 buy. Normally, we take -- we offer a landowner 50
22 percent of the market value of that land for a
23 conservation easement. But Jay Kane will touch more
24 deeply on the surveys and the conservation easements
25 later on.
14
1 One thing I'd like to mention is that
2 we'd like to encourage Parks and Wildlife to do more
3 prairie restoration in the -- in the parks. In
4 particular, to educate the public about the many
5 benefit -- many benefits of the prairies and particularly
6 teaching them how to restore wildlife habitat. That's
7 all I have to say. Thanks.
8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
9 Pat Murray, Dana Larson.
10 MR. MURRAY: Madame Chairman,
11 commissioners, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to
12 you today. My name is Pat Murray. I'm the executive
13 director of the Coastal Conservation Association of
14 Texas. I want to speak to you about a couple things
15 briefly today. First, is to compliment you on your work
16 in managing Texas bay shrimping. This is not only doing
17 great benefit for Texas waters, for recreational
18 anglers, for the resources as a whole, but it's setting
19 a precedent for other states. As I travel the Gulf
20 States, I've heard it from Mississippi, Louisiana, the
21 eyes of the Gulf are looking at what's being done here.
22 The same thing is held true crab trap management.
23 Parks and Wildlife's help through this last spring in
24 helping CCA Texas to facilitate an abandoned crab trap
25 pick up. It was monumental, not only what it did for
15
1 the resource, but in setting a precedent through other
2 Gulf waters.
3 My last is almost a request. I request
4 y'all continue to work with us as we try to guarantee
5 fresh water inflow and quality and quantity for our
6 Texas bays. It truly is the alpha and omega of our bay
7 eco and critical to the future of it. Thank you, again,
8 for setting up this forum and giving all these user
9 groups an opportunity to speak to you.
10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Dana Larson and
11 William Brad Woods.
12 MR. LARSON: Commissioners, Mr. Cook,
13 good afternoon. I, too -- my name is Dana Larson. And
14 I, too, would like to commend the department on one of
15 the most successful programs that you do have, and this
16 is the Artificial Reef Program. I'm here today to
17 encourage you to really see if we can make sure that we
18 have one more opportunity come to fruition. And this is
19 the conversion of the Galveston -- the Galveston
20 Causeway rubble into an artificial reef. There -- it's
21 got something like 8,000 feet on each of the two
22 causeways. And that would make one tremendous
23 artificial reef offshore. I did send some comments on
24 this to y'all, so I do hope you can read them and study
25 those. Thank you.
16
1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: William Brad Woods
2 and Walter Zimmerman.
3 MR. WOODS: Madame chairman,
4 Commissioners. I'm William B. Woods. I live in Temple,
5 Texas. And I represent myself. I am a sports shrimper,
6 strictly, sportsman trawl or personal bait shrimp trawl.
7 Not commercial. And I've been doing it since about
8 1990. It's very difficult out there. I pulled a trawl
9 that is eight and three quarter inch stretched mesh, and
10 I just bought a new one. And when that thing gets
11 wet -- it measures eight and three quarter now, and when
12 it gets wet, it's nine. That's a big shrimp to go
13 through that thing. I don't catch any shrimp. This
14 year, the season opened, I went down there. I pulled
15 for about six hours, caught a quart. The next day, I
16 went out. We pulled again, we didn't catch a pint.
17 Loaded and went home. I thought maybe it was the moon.
18 We didn't -- waited until the moon changed. I went
19 back. We didn't have any better luck. The commercial
20 boats are catching, but I'm not. My thoughts on that
21 subject is, I would like an opportunity, a little better
22 opportunity, to catch some shrimp. If -- at the -- in
23 October -- after October 15, I believe it is, they
24 change the commercial man can change to a smaller mesh.
25 I'd like to see the possibility of a sportsman, which is
17
1 only allowed 15 pounds per person, per day, to have that
2 smaller mesh year-round when he can shrimp to give him
3 an opportunity to at least catch some shrimp. There's
4 times -- there's occasions, if you catch everything
5 perfect, you can catch shrimp. But, as a general rule,
6 you go out there today, you might catch five pounds.
7 Tomorrow, the pressure has hit them from every which
8 way, they leave, and you're not going to catch any
9 shrimp. I'd just like a little better opportunity.
10 Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Mr. Zimmerman and
12 then John Valentino.
13 MR. ZIMMERMAN: Madame Chairman and
14 commissioners, I appreciate the opportunity to come
15 before you this morning -- or this afternoon. This is,
16 for a change, it's not going to be complaining too much.
17 We want to express our appreciation. And that's not
18 normal for the shrimp industry, I don't think. I do
19 want to inform you though that the shrimp industry is in
20 pretty sad shape right now. We're having a lot of
21 foreign import pond-raised shrimp. A friend of mine
22 visited -- came back from Vietnam last week and said
23 that they've all converted their rice paddies to shrimp
24 ponds and wish now that they were raising rice because
25 rice is high and shrimp are cheap. We do have a
18
1 problem. And we're having trouble getting Food and Drug
2 to examine the shrimp, because they are coming in
3 contaminated with the drugs that they use to keep from
4 having diseases. And there's a residue left. And one
5 of them right now is chlora -- chlora ama -- what you
6 call them? Antibiotic.
7 MR. ZIMMERMAN: It's caused by
8 antibiotics. And it's more than just one antibiotic.
9 We're having a lot of trouble. Anyway, prices are
10 depressed. You could see a collapse in our industry. I
11 know you've probably heard this before, but it is pretty
12 serious. Average price right now is 2.75 to $3.00 a
13 pound, which normally is -- the shrimp is maybe 4.50.
14 So we're only making two-thirds of what we should really
15 be making. If fuel goes up, you'll see a lot of boats
16 tied up. Hal Osburn -- at our last meeting on the 25th,
17 the shrimp advisory brought in the governor's aide,
18 brought the health department, Texas Department of
19 Agriculture to see what they could do to help us. We do
20 need some type of marking, and TDA does have a program.
21 For every dollar we contribute, they'll contribute the
22 same amount. The oyster industry does have that
23 right now. We don't -- Hal does not want to try to
24 collect money through unloading -- afraid it would
25 destroy his unloading figures -- so that he would have
19
1 better records as far as protecting what to do. It was
2 mentioned maybe using a percentage of license or maybe a
3 legislator proposal.
4 Next, one thing we have been asking for a
5 long time to seed the bays with shrimp. We seed them
6 with red fish. We seed them with trout. We'd like to
7 feed them with a little bit more. China, right now, I
8 understand, is doing that. And they have increased
9 their production. I don't know for sure. There --
10 Gary Graham is -- is our marine agent. He made a trip
11 all the way from Florida to Texas, coming all the way
12 through all the states, and everybody that he talked to
13 said it may be time for limited entry. And I'm talking
14 about state and federal. A lot of people in my industry
15 don't like to hear this because it means more
16 regulations. And we have a lot of them. It's not just
17 Parks and Wildlife. It's coast guard. It's just
18 everything. But times are going to have to change. I
19 think there's too many boats. And, somehow, they'll
20 have a buy back program. The state -- this will not be a
21 state, it will have to be a federal to really get rid of
22 them.
23 And the last thing, I want to thank you
24 so much for your contribution for -- towards the Ridley
25 Program in Mexico. Y'all are going to get the Ridley
20
1 Award tomorrow. They are doing a lot of good things
2 down there. I think they could do that on the
3 leatherback, too, if they could just go back to where
4 those eggs are laid and get the -- get more small
5 turtles out. That's all I have. And I do thank you
6 very much for your time. Appreciate it.
7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
8 John Valentino and L. W. -- is it Ranne or Ranne.
9 MR. VALENTINO: My name is
10 John Valentino, and I represent Eagle Point Fishing Camp
11 in Galveston Bay. And I want to thank Mr. Cook and
12 Ms. Armstrong for inviting us here today to have a
13 little public input. And I think a whole lot of us have
14 been doing that for the last year. I presently operate
15 Eagle Point Fishing Camp in San Leon, which is in
16 Galveston Bay. And I have a background in commercial
17 shrimp fishing, as well. As well as serving the sport
18 fishing public. My first concern today is to discuss
19 the problems that we have created with the saltwater
20 fishing stamp. The first problem obviously is that salt
21 water fishing is more expensive. And the original
22 purpose for the saltwater stamp has been lost. We were
23 originally, I think, were going to get more game wardens
24 on the coast. And I believe that's pretty much been put
25 in the background. Second, the saltwater stamp causes
21
1 a lot of confusion. And this is the case where simple
2 is really better.
3 Third, the price of the temporary
4 stamps -- this pushes the price of our temporary stamps
5 to a level which we, as license retailers, are observing
6 price resistance every day. And it is, in my opinion,
7 costing the state money. And I want to bring out some
8 points to you that you probably already realize. The
9 three-day resident license is ten dollars, but with a
10 saltwater stamp it's 20. A five-day nonresident
11 license is 20. The stamp, it's 30. 14-day, it's 12.
12 And now it's 22. So we have a little confusion when
13 we're selling our license and not -- last but not least,
14 the senior exempt license, which is a little bit of a
15 misnomer, is $6. Now it's 16. These are some items
16 that we are having problems with as licensed retailers.
17 And I ask the commission to consider that, if it is wise
18 to ask citizens to pay $20 to fish or to crab in their
19 own public waters for one day? The results are that
20 many people do not use their own state resource. Or
21 that they use the resource and don't buy a license. Or
22 they do buy a license, pay a little more than they can
23 afford and then determine that maybe it's not the family
24 outing that they would like to be participating in. All
25 of those are bad choices. And I submit to the
22
1 commission that we look at something different.
2 Remember that we do have a customer base in the lower
3 income strata. They're being overlooked and
4 overcharged, and I'd like for the commission to look
5 into this inequity.
6 The second issue -- and I better speed
7 up -- is probably the biggest one that we have been
8 dealing with on the coast. And that is the issue of the
9 saltwater spotted sea trout issue that's before us
10 today. Potential changes in the fishing regulations
11 were initially discussed between coastal managers and
12 selected parties somewhere in 2001. And as word of
13 these discussions spread, intense debates developed.
14 The end result was a series of town hall meetings,
15 formation of a speckled trout work group all, and a lot
16 of disharmony. This disharmony was not helpful, and it
17 certainly was not necessary. The coastal management
18 team appears to want public input but only that which
19 agrees with their positions. I was fortunate enough to
20 attend many of these meetings and public opinion solidly for no
change.
21 And I hope the Commission was able to to receive that
22 message.
23 COMMISSIONER COOK: Got to wrap up.
24 MR. VALENTINO: The approach has damaged
25 the reputation of TPWD Coastal staff and exposed
23
1 willingness to listen to some interest over others. And
2 I hope that we take note of this problem. Thank you,
3 for your time.
4 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. I just
5 want to reemphasize that each person has three minutes.
6 We have a large list of -- a long list of people signed
7 up to speak. And so that everybody gets their chance,
8 please try to keep it to three minutes.
9 Hello.
10 MR. RANNE: Hello. Madame Chairman and
11 Commissioners, Texas Parks and Wildlife. My name is
12 Leonard Ranne, Freshwater Anglers Association. And it's
13 a real pleasure to be here with you on this day. One of
14 the -- a couple of things I'd like to talk about here is
15 something dear to my heart, and that is our Youth
16 Outreach Programs. I understand that Sea World is doing
17 a fantastic job bringing the youth in and getting them
18 involved and educating them about fishing. And the surf
19 and so forth. I know at Athens last year, we had 28
20 hundred and 52 kids. This year they cut the program
21 three weeks short and we had 3 thousand and 80, 82 or 83
22 kids. The beautiful part about this, if we could open
23 this program up around Christmas, we might could pick up
24 two or 300 kids that would get to come here. Most of
25 these kids have never been outside the city -- wouldn't
24
1 be out of the outside the city limits of Dallas if they
2 haven't been to this program. We've done some research
3 and checking, and our program is working. The kids are
4 learning something. And it's not the same kids coming
5 back every year. So it's -- it's a good, good, good
6 healthy program. I'd like to see Austin and San Antonio
7 have one of the same centers, say, the Texas River
8 center in San Marcos. Studying our rivers aquifers,
9 that center there, if they planted some grass in that
10 open bay for those glass bottom boats, it would be a
11 beautiful -- you can have a beautiful program. And the
12 beautiful part about it, you'd probably get a million
13 people up and down that highway within less than a
14 six-mile area that you could bring into it. It could be
15 one of our best programs yet. I hope that this program
16 goes forward. And we have this program.
17 I would like to commend our inland
18 fishery staff for the fantastic job they've done with
19 our bass program. Our trophy bass. It's been
20 outstanding. We've had some problems with bass viruses.
21 We've had algae problems that come in and affect our
22 fisheries. And this creates a financial problem for in
23 and out around the area there where the lake is. So
24 it's crucial for us to maintain a program that generates
25 like $6.2 billion a year to the state of Texas, is a
25
1 strong hatchery. I know that without a hatchery
2 program, it will pay for it later down the road. We've
3 got a good vegetation management program going here now
4 where we can control, but not just vegetation. We even
5 got a count now that would protect the -- the
6 applicators that is hired by the River authorities or
7 whoever. And all that can be is a harassment suit for
8 like two million bucks. So we've made some progress.
9 We're coming forward. In the next ten years, I hope to
10 see Texas Parks and Wildlife bigger and better and more
11 wonderful than it is right now. Thank you, gentlemen.
12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Will Kirkpatrick and
13 Gary Van Gelder.
14 MR. KIRKPATRICK: Good afternoon. Thank
15 you for taking time to talk to us. My name is
16 Will Kirkpatrick. I've lived on Sam Rayburn Reservoir
17 since 1986 where I run a series of fishing schools and
18 guide. I'm here to talk about the peaks and valleys of
19 bass fishing in reservoirs and lakes that occur not only
20 here in Texas but over much of the United States,
21 Canada, and Mexico. I've fished for and caught bass in 15
22 states and Canada while traveling much of the country in
23 a 30-career with Bell System. In the packets that I
24 gave Mr. Estrada are copies of articles from national
25 outdoor magazines such as Sports Field, Field and
26
1 Stream, relating to the resurgence of bass fishing on
2 Sam Rayburn Reservoir after several years of poor
3 angling. You'll note these articles are from the
4 mid-80s. Also in this packet is a study I've done using
5 nine years of data from an annual three-day bass
6 tournament conducted on Sam Rayburn during the month of
7 April. There are several thousand anglers participate
8 in this every year.
9 As shown Rayburn's most recent peak for
10 big bass was 1995 when the largest ten bass for that
11 event averaged over 11 pounds each. The following year
12 we saw Rayburn drop to all time low water levels,
13 reduced its size by 25 percent, which is a lot of water.
14 One result of the reduced size was the lack of
15 protecting cover, partially resulting in the annual
16 three-day tournament having the top 240 bass weighing in
17 at an amazing seven and two-thirds pounds each. '96 was
18 followed by a steady decline in overall bass fishing and
19 it bottomed out last year when 240 bass weighed only
20 four and three quarters pounds each. As fishing results
21 decline on a reservoir or lake, so does the use by
22 recreational and tournament anglers, which results in
23 less pressure on the resource. Hence, the bass get
24 bigger and there are more of them, which is what we're
25 seeing right now on Sam Rayburn. This year, that same
27
1 tournament saw two 240 anglers weighing in bass
2 averaging almost six pounds a piece, which is a gain of
3 over one pound in this last year. That's similar to the
4 results we saw in 1998 when we had 239 anglers. We lost
5 one someplace. Normally, it's 240, but we lost one
6 there. During the same period of 1999 through 2001,
7 Bass Anglers Sportsman Society, who is the world's
8 largest tournament organization, commissioned
9 Dr. Schramm, who is professor of fisheries at
10 Mississippi State University; and Gene Gilliland, who is a
11 senior biologist with the State of Oklahoma's Department
12 of Wildlife, to do an in-depth study on bass mortality.
13 Both of these men, by the way, are ex Texans. And they
14 both are average -- avid bass fishermen. I worked with
15 them on their original protocol, which has been
16 condensed to a 43-page booklet, titled Keeping Bass
17 Alive. It's now being published. It's also in the
18 packet you've got.
19 The reason bass spent the time and money
20 on this study as we anglers kill a lot of fish. Many
21 are taken to be eaten. That's probably what they were
22 put here in the first place for. Others are used in
23 tournaments, produce incomes totaling millions of
24 dollars, but don't survive containment. And others die
25 through angler mishandling. You, as our commissioners,
28
1 and the Texas Parks and Wildlife can implement rules and
2 regulation dictating size and/or possession
3 requirements. And this will help. But until we anglers
4 and tournament organizations learn and apply proper
5 handling procedures, we will continue to see problems in
6 our fisheries.
7 Lastly, Madame Chairman, you and I were at
8 a meeting here some time ago when then chairman Lee Bass
9 brought up the subject of the conservation license
10 plates of bass. And he mentioned that there's an
11 organization that has 330,000 members. And if half of
12 these would buy these bass license plates, Mr. Cook would
13 have an additional 300 -- three million, 600,000 dollars
14 to work with. Thank you. Thank you.
15 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: See what you
16 can do about that.
17 MR.KIRKPATRICK: I've got two of them,
18 Commissioner. I've a pickup and a suburban.
19 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Van Gelder,
20 followed by R.C. Blundell.
21 MR. VAN GELDER: Madame Chairman, members
22 of the commission, Mr. Cook, my name is Dr. Gary Van
23 Gelder. I live in Houston, Texas. I like to think I
24 represent the views of the 500,000 independent anglers
25 who enjoy Walden-like mornings uninterrupted by
29
1 70-mile-an-hour bass boats. My comments concern our
2 large mouth bass fisheries. I want to make three
3 points.
4 Number one, Texas enjoys the best bass
5 fishing in the country. But we have an opportunity to
6 further improve the quality through better recycling.
7 Too many bass die unnecessarily from angler-induced
8 stress associated with catch, live well transport, weigh
9 and release fishing. Two, best practices have been
10 described to produce this mortality loss by 60 percent.
11 And, three, I propose a proactive implementation plan.
12 Bass caught and given rides in live wells under
13 conditions of warm water and low oxygen suffer
14 substantial mortalities within six days of being
15 released. To illustrate, the average mortality is 25
16 percent, based on over 100 studies. This predicts that
17 for every 20,000 legal bass given the live well
18 experience, 4,000 of the largest most catchable fish in
19 the lake die. When fishery managers are quoted as
20 saying, catch, transport, and weigh fishing has little
21 impact on overall fishery, I believe this is not the same
22 as saying, no impact. If 4,000, 10,000 or 40,000 of the
23 biggest catchable fish die unnecessarily as a result of
24 poor handling, they no longer contribute to the
25 quality of the fishing experience. What can be done?
30
1 The killer is temperature and poor live wells. Use --
2 best practices have been described for aeration, water
3 exchange, water temperature control. Use common sense,
4 and don't schedule trans -- catch, transport and weigh
5 release events in the hotter months. How do we
6 implement this? Stage one is a voluntary program. The
7 stake holders and fishery biologists develop goals and a
8 timetable to reduce to delayed mortality. Best
9 practices have already been defined. The weakest link
10 is the commitment to implementation. The catch and
11 weigh industry should be responsible for implementation
12 and for reporting progress.
13 Step two. If the voluntary program
14 doesn't make sufficient progress in a reasonable period
15 of time, then implement stage two. Stage two allows
16 proactive organizations with low mortality records to
17 continue. But the non-complying community would be faced
18 with permitting and mandatory monitoring with full cost
19 recovery, a price to participate for those unwilling to
20 reduce avoidable mortality voluntarily. In summary, I
21 believe there is a substantial hidden loss of large
22 catchable that degrades the quality and quanity of our
23 fisheries. Two, best practices to avoid 60 percent of
24 this loss have been defined. And I proposed a stepwise
25 implementation program. The fish belong to everyone.
31
1 Those who fish for fun and those who fish for profit.
2 This should be a no-brainer. Win/win for all anglers.
3 Thank you.
4 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Thank you.
5 Mr. Blundell followed by Mr. Parten,
6 Ed Parten.
7 MR. BLUNDELL: Thank you, board members.
8 I'm R.C. Blundell, Secretary of Central Texas
9 Association of Bass Clubs. I've been fishing -- bass
10 fishing for about 74 years. When -- I started when I
11 was six, so you see I'm right at 80 years old. This
12 grass carp business -- I have not seen, by your
13 biologists, what size they will put in there, how fast
14 they will grow, and how much they will consume each six
15 months. If you put that amount of fish that they're
16 talking about in Lake Austin, it's a matter of a year or
17 so, there will be nothing left but mud on the bottom.
18 Nothing to filter the water, nothing for algae to grow
19 on to survive. All species of fish, turtles and whatnot
20 to live on. And if they do hatch, they'll be gobbled up
21 by the big ones. And the water rushing through that
22 lake will turn it into nothing but a mud hole. From
23 experience and my years of fishing, I remember when
24 there was only -- fishing was closed three months out of
25 the year. No limits. No nothing. I talked to y'all --
32
1 when you start putting length limits on, I told you
2 it would not work on Guadalupe bass. Well, sure enough,
3 it has not worked on Guadalupe bass. I'm too old. I've
4 been around too long. I've seen too many changes you
5 guys made. And I'm asking you, get your biologists out
6 and get it out to the public. The number of fish
7 they're talking about and putting in that lake and every six
8 months what their weight will be. Because they'll eat
9 their weight every day. And multiply that by 365 days
10 out of the year. They'll eat out every stinking thing
11 in that lake. And we will have a dead fishery. And I
12 know y'all don't want to see that. I maintain a
13 computer file, on my personal computer, of thousands and
14 thousands of bass fishermen or people that fish. Our
15 association puts on a tournament every year, which will
16 come up here in September, for the leukemia society,
17 nonprofit. We've raised close to $80 thousand in about
18 ten years. We're on the honor roll. So please have
19 your biologists put out to the public every six months
20 what these fish will consume and how long it would take
21 to get clear of the vegetation that's the study you're
22 making on that lake. Thank you, on behalf of the bass
23 fishermen. And I'll see you.
24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Ed Parten and
25 Jim Murray.
33
1 MR. PARTEN: Thank you, Lady Chairman,
2 distinguished panel. It's a pleasure to be here. My
3 name is Ed Parten. I'm president of Texas Black Bass
4 Unlimited. I would like to say that I've had the
5 pleasure of working with Texas Parks and Wildlife since
6 early '70s. I feel that the things that have been
7 accomplished by this department are great and wonderful.
8 And that I look forward to many years of working with
9 Texas Parks and Wildlife.
10 I am here today to, one, to tell you that
11 some of the things that we've done. We helped build the
12 Athens fishing center. We raised a half million
13 dollars. We marked 22 miles of River channel on
14 Lake Livingston. We donated a check in this very
15 building to start the -- to start the habitat
16 enhancement program that is now underway with inland
17 fisheries. We gave a check for $10,000 to help build a
18 tram that transports the youth, the elderly, and the
19 physically challenged around Athens. We have built a
20 pier program, a fishing pier on Lake Nacogdoches covered
21 for physically challenged. The cost of that was about
22 $187,000. We recently planted over 5,000 trees in Lake
23 Houston for habitat enhancement. We are currently
24 working with school districts in the greater Houston
25 area hoping to go build a fish hatchery system similar
34
1 to what there is in Athens with monies that we are
2 raising to actually teach and educate the youth about
3 fisheries. We will set aside one of the ponds for
4 actually using to help the youth and induct them into
5 fishing and the sport of fishing. I told you this to
6 tell that you we're interested in what happens here.
7 But of late, we have -- we've talked to people with
8 inland fisheries and Parks and Wildlife Department and
9 feel that all we've had to say has been -- has fell on
10 deaf ears. I hope that's not the case today. One of
11 the previous speakers talked about our association and
12 the number of members we have. We exceed over 300,000
13 people in the State of Texas. That's part of our
14 organization. And we feel that there are major problems
15 in our fisheries. With the new book that was put out in
16 June the 20th, you indicate that fishing generates $4.7
17 billion from an all time high just three years ago of
18 6.37 billion. We've seen over a billion and a half
19 dollar decrease in inland -- in fisheries that's
20 generated to the Texas economy. Fishing license sales
21 are down by 18 -- by 16.8 percent. I think that the
22 industry is suffering just about everywhere we go. And
23 I think that things needed to be -- need to be done. I
24 was told by the executive director that our inland
25 fisheries chief had made the statement that fishing is
35
1 better in Texas than it's ever been. I challenge that.
2 I think that other people behind me will confirm the
3 problems that we have. We have several speakers today
4 that will tell you some of the problems that are
5 occurring all over the state of Texas. Thank you so
6 very much for your time.
7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Jim Murray and
8 Elroy Krueger.
9 MR. MURRAY: Hello. My name is
10 Jim Murray. I'm a fishing guide on Falcon Lake. Or I
11 used to be, basically. I've worked about a dozen days
12 this year. Ten years ago when I moved to Falcon, out of
13 the first four months of the year, I would work 100 days
14 a year guiding. A lot of this has to do with our lake
15 level down there. But our -- quality of our fishing has
16 really went down. I'm also a tournament director and
17 I'm a board member of the Zapata County Chamber of
18 Commerce. A good guide trip on Falcon, when I first
19 moved down there, was 15 to 30 fish a day, per customer.
20 The tournaments -- the average bass tournament on a
21 five-fish stringer always exceeded 30 pounds. Several
22 times exceeded 40 pounds. I mean, we had the greatest
23 fishing in the United States at Falcon.
24 We had a thriving local economy of winter
25 Texans and bass tournaments that were coming down there
36
1 on a regular basis. Now -- and also when I first moved
2 there, we had 25 or 30 fishing guides on the lake. Now,
3 we have maybe two legitimate fishing guides that live on
4 the lake. Fishing is okay sometimes. Like I mentioned
5 earlier, this year I worked approximately 15 days. Some
6 of those trips have went to Mexico. They weren't even
7 here in the United States. We -- on a good day, we'll
8 catch ten to 15 fish per boat. Our average big bass
9 might be four pounds. I don't remember the last
10 ten-pound bass that was landed in my boat on Falcon
11 Lake. The first couple of years I lived down there, we
12 had -- I had -- over 20 every year was landed in my
13 boat. We were the number one lake in the State of Texas
14 to catch a ten-pound bass for the amount of hours
15 fished. Now I don't even think we're in the ranking.
16 In Zapata and Falcon Heights, we have many RV parks and
17 fish camps that are closed, operating at minimum
18 existence. We're supported, our local economy, by the
19 oil field period. I mean, we've lost the winter Texans.
20 We're losing the tournaments.
21 The biggest crying shame of the whole
22 thing is our lake is down 50 feet. It has been for the
23 last five or six years. Y'all know that. Right this
24 minute we do not have a paved launching ramp on the
25 lake. If that was anywhere else in the state of Texas,
37
1 other than a low populated area like we are, the people
2 would riot. I'm asking you to bring us some facilities
3 down there and give us some help. I mean, we need it.
4 We need it big time. Y'all -- I gave them pictures for
5 y'all to look at where we're launching down there. We
6 need management for our fishery down there. You've got
7 an aquatic vegetation team. We need some help in that
8 area. Our level is below where our fish are protected.
9 As I'm talking to you right now, we got 15 to 50 illegal
10 Mexican gill nets on our side of the lake. And we
11 complain and complain, we cannot get any enforcement. I
12 need your help. We need your help from Zapata. Thank
13 you.
14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Elroy Krueger and
15 Larry Bridgeman.
16 MR. KRUEGER: Thank you. I'm
17 Elroy Krueger from Three Rivers around Choke Canyon.
18 I've been an aggressive fisherman for over 40 years. And my
19 concern is not for the good fisherman, the tournament
20 fisherman, or the pros. I'm a pro guide, pro fisherman,
21 and all that. My concern is the lack of license sales
22 in the State of Texas in freshwater fishing. The
23 number of people that have quit over the last ten years.
24 Thinking the other day -- I can't think of anybody in
25 our area that's under 25 that bass fish anymore. I
38
1 can't think of a youth that fishes bass -- for bass.
2 And bass clubs that use to come over there used to
3 average -- at first with the lake counter, they used to
4 average fifty entries per tournament. Now it's ten, and
5 only a few come occasionally. And it has everything to
6 do with the catch ratio. Trophy bass and Florida bass
7 is good, good for the state. I'm not fighting to
8 eliminate Florida bass. I am against hundred percent
9 Florida bass program and putting Florida bass
10 everywhere. Because Florida bass are too hard to catch
11 for the average fisherman. That's why they have quit.
12 That's why there's not anybody under 25. That's why
13 even bass clubbers are quitting. We've got to have the
14 action. You put the action to catch back into the
15 freshwater fishing, license sales will go up. And that
16 will do nothing but benefit y'all, benefit every
17 business, benefit my business. I wouldn't be here today
18 if that was the case. So I'm asking, don't forget the
19 average fisherman, the youth that want to come into
20 fishing. Give them something to catch. They can't
21 catch these hard to catch Florida and trophy bass. We
22 can -- it can be managed where you can have -- in any
23 lake, you can have trophy bass, you can have the native
24 bass that has been considered the dumb bass that hits
25 everything. That's what the average guy needs the kids
39
1 need to get them fishing. I have guys that are bass
2 fisherman wanting me to take out -- get my kid hooked on
3 bass fishing. I can't do it. I have problems. The
4 pros have problems. We have tournaments where there's
5 five fish per team, and a team -- two good fishermen,
6 you have 40 teams you -- get one or two limit. Choke Canyon
7 last Sunday, we had 14 people in a tournament. Heavy
8 stringer was one pound, 11 ounce. Second place was a
9 tie, one pound, eight ounce. One pound, eight ounce,
10 and that's it.
11 How can I get the average guy to catch
12 fish? How can I get them to come back? How can I get
13 the youth to fish when the ratio is like that? And it's
14 all due to strictly, 100 percent Florida bass program.
15 Again, I'm -- Florida bass is great. Put Florida bass
16 in every lake, my lake, but don't forget the average
17 fisherman. Their catch ratio is on the native bass.
18 Native bass are easier to raise and put in these lakes.
19 And it can be done. That's what I'm asking. Put the
20 catch back into fresh water fishing. And another thing
21 I'm having very distressed about is that four or five
22 weeks ago, 50 to 100 thousand pounds of fish were left
23 to die below Choke Canyon dam. Parks and Wildlife
24 officials did nothing about it. I asked them about
25 it, they said we don't know what to do. This problem
40
1 will occur again. I hope next time they will know what
2 to do. Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Larry Bridgeman and
4 Frank Goll.
5 MR. BRIDGEMAN: Ma'am Chairman,
6 commissioners. My name is Larry Bridgeman. Thank you
7 for allowing us to speak before you today. I am the
8 owner and operator of Falcon Lake Tackle in Zapata,
9 Texas. We also maintain a web site. And on this web
10 site we publish all of the relevant information about
11 Falcon, the tournament successes, fishing reports, lake
12 levels, hazards launching. And I've had occasion to
13 attend a number of tournament weigh-ins as a result of
14 the -- the maintaining the web site. And I can tell
15 that you the ten pound-plus bass that Jim Murray alluded
16 to -- the last one that was weighed in at any tournament
17 I've attended or have knowledge of was in May of 2001.
18 And that was a 10.36 pound fish that had net marks and
19 infection all over. And the illegal netting is rampant,
20 and that has contributed to the demise of multiple
21 species. We have had at least four species of fish at
22 Falcon that, during the '90s, have dropped to over a 50
23 CPUE, as measured by the Texas Parks and Wildlife
24 surveys, have dropped down to below 1.0. Some of them
25 are zero.
41
1 We had a tournament where we gave a
2 hundred dollars for every white bass, the biggest white
3 bass each day. Not one white bass was weighed in.
4 White bass used to bring tens of thousands of winter
5 Texans to our lake. Multiple million dollars in revenue
6 are being lost by the people who built the 15 or 20 RV
7 parks and motels around the lake perimeter. None of
8 their docks are working. None of their ramps are
9 working. And the Parks and Wildlife and the Parks
10 Department down at the State park do not maintain the
11 facilities that they have. For example, the road which
12 is a washboard and -- you have a picture of a broken
13 trailor parts. The launching area itself is rocks and
14 sharp drop offs and people are damaging trailors. And
15 I've had -- at the tournaments this winter, I think
16 frequently the heavy stringer and the big bass were the
17 same single fish. And about 20 percent of the people
18 caught fish. I had one guy tell me, I've been here four
19 times and haven't caught a legal keeper, and I'm not
20 coming back. And it is a desperate situation. We've
21 had meetings with the commissioners, with the Parks and
22 Wildlife Fisheries, people in enforcement. We have not
23 seen any change. There's an old saying, insanity is
24 when you do the same thing year after year and expect
25 the outcome to be different. And that's basically what
42
1 we've had at Falcon Lake. We urgently request your
2 intervention in a serious program to bring us the
3 facilities and stop putting fish in the lake that are
4 destroying the native species, like the stripers. Over
5 two million stripers have been put in during the same
6 period that 600,000 black bass have been stocked. And
7 the stripers do not do well, and all they do is feed the
8 Mexican nets and kill the crappie and the white bass.
9 So we appreciate your help. Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. I want
11 to remind you all once again that there is a three
12 minute limit.
13 MR. GOLL: Good afternoon, Madame
14 Chairman, Commissioners, and Dr. Cooke. Glad to see
15 y'all get Mr. Cook.
16 I'm Frank Goll, Texas Association of Bass
17 Clubs. Region one director with the south Texas area.
18 I live in San Antonio. I cover the region from San
19 Antonio south through Del Rio through Corpus Christi.
20 The two gentlemen before me -- the clubs I represent
21 fish those lakes, plus Lake Amistad, being the three
22 major lakes in our area. Today I'm here to speak in
23 support of -- and in opposition to the Texas Parks and
24 Wildlife Inland Fisheries stocking of Texas lakes. The
25 Florida large mouth bass program -- or large mouth bass
43
1 program --basically south Texas has a problem getting a
2 fair share of the resources, has had this in the past,
3 and probably will have it in the future. Right now, I
4 understand the Parks and Wildlife is considering a
5 five-dollar freshwater fishing stamp to build a new $16
6 million hatchery at Toledo Bend. We would be in favor
7 of a new hatchery. I'd love to have the fish. We do
8 not want the Florida large mouth. At least, most people
9 in south Texas don't. What we have seen in the
10 past --well, since 1977 to 2002, the three big East
11 Texas lakes, being Fork, Toledo Bend, Rayburn --
12 well-known lakes -- in comparison to the three big south
13 Texas lakes -- or similar south Texas lakes, being
14 Amistad, Choke Canyon, and Falcon. The east Texas lakes
15 have received over 20 million -- right at 21 million
16 fish. South Texas lakes have received a little under
17 six million fish, which gives you about a 78 percent to
18 a 22 percent ratio. We don't feel this is quite fair.
19 Since 1977 there was articles in
20 newspapers, being Corpus Christi, and the New Braunfels
21 Herald. Keith Warren, Texas angler did them.
22 Complaining about the stocking ratios. We complained to
23 Texas Parks and Wildlife. And things sure did -- they
24 changed. They got a lot worse. Since that time --
25 since 1977, the same lakes -- the east Texas lakes have
44
1 received 88 percent of the resources, while the Texas --
2 South Texas lakes have dropped down to 12 percent of the
3 resources. Comparison of the two -- two of the lakes in
4 the area, Choke Canyon and Fork compared to -- compared to
5 sizes, impounding. 1980 compared to 1982 for Choke
6 Canyon will show that Lake Fork has received 84 percent
7 of fish stocked, compared to 16 percent for Choke Canyon,
8 Of the total fish that was stocked in those two lakes.
9 I don't know how much the stock seems to help as for
10 genetics, et cetera. But you take a look at Lake Fork has
11 produced the state record. Has produced of the top 50
12 bass caught in Texas. Choke Canyon has not produced a
13 bass in the top 50. And the lake record is 1466, caught
14 in 1991. In the era of 1994 to '96 -- 1994 to '96, Honey Hole
15 magazine was issued permits to remove small fish from
16 Fork, take them to other lakes, while they continued to
17 stock Lake Fork. And we cannot get any fish in south
18 Texas. Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Ron Werner and David
20 Stewart.
21 MR. WERNER: Madame Chairman,
22 Commissioners, Bob Cook, I appreciate y'all being here
23 and letting me be here today to be in front of y'all.
24 I'm Ron Werner, CEO of April Plaza Marina on Lake Conroe.
25 Three things here. One is economics, one is complaints,
45
1 and one is a request.
2 Let's go through the revenue first,
3 please. On March the 4th, 1997, Mr. Bill Boyet caught a
4 lake record black bass on Lake Conroe weighing 14.91
5 pounds. Prior years show that it was not uncommon for a
6 lake record black bass to be caught on this lake. Since
7 that time, and up to this present time, there's not been
8 a record lake bass caught in the population. And size
9 of black bass has been on a steady decline. Plus, 85
10 percent are covered with sores.
11 Revenue from my business, such as, but
12 not limited to the following: Decline in bass
13 tournaments coming to Lake Conroe and to my motel, loss
14 in sales from motel rental, slip rental, boat launch,
15 gasoline, fishing rods, fishing reels, fishing lures,
16 hooks, swivels, fishing line, chips, cold drinks,
17 sandwiches, ice, shirts, caps, and et cetera.
18 So '98, my business started suffering
19 approximately ten percent loss of revenue because in
20 declines of the population and size of the black bass.
21 In '99 my business suffered 28 percent. In 2000, it has
22 suffered 40 percent. 2001, we're looking at 45 percent.
23 And so far this year, it's right at 50 percent.
24 All right. Sadly, this is not an
25 isolated lake or business. A tremendous amount of our
46
1 Texas lakes has caused business to either suffer in loss
2 of revenue, or they had to go out of business due to the
3 population and size of black bass. Yet officials from
4 Texas Parks and Wildlife are feeding false propaganda
5 as to how great our Texas lakes are. This is not true.
6 I am here today requesting your immediate attention and
7 help in getting the management of Texas Parks and
8 Wildlife to listen and to, at least, try what the
9 anglers are telling them concerning vegetation and water
10 quality. And support us and not the special interest
11 groups. I request a follow-up as to what is going to be
12 done to help us. And I want to make one last comment.
13 I have met with Bob Cook. I've got a lot of respect for
14 Bob Cook. He is new in here, and a lot of these issues
15 being throwed at him, and he's not even aware of what's
16 coming at him. So I'm asking all of you commissioners,
17 along with Bob Cook, to give the Inland Fishery
18 Department an immediate consideration and a complete
19 overhaul because things are happening out here that
20 y'all are not aware of. And it's costing us money and
21 in the future right now is very grim. Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: David Stewart, Karen
23 Hadden.
24 MR. STEWART: Madame Chairman,
25 Commissioners, Mr. Cook, my name is David Stewart. And
47
1 I'm president of an organization called SMART. And
2 y'all are getting a little copy of an article in the
3 newspaper, I think it was Monday of this week,
4 concerning grass carp. I'm going to get -- I would like
5 this Commission to really think about instructing
6 Mr. Cook that they need to really evaluate stocking
7 grass carp in public waters in Texas anywhere. Lake
8 Austin is just one issue. But we do too much of it.
9 We're seeing more and more articles like that. The next
10 thing I want to -- I was at a meeting about a week and a
11 half ago with the commissioners of TNRCC. And the last
12 commissioner that we met with was Commissioner White.
13 And I brought up a question. And the question was, I
14 would like to see more cooperation between Texas Parks
15 and Wildlife and TNRCC. And lo and behold, our great
16 chairman of Texas Parks and Wildlife was already ahead
17 of me. She had already had a meeting with
18 Commissioner White. And I want to personally thank her
19 for that effort because that's exactly along the lines
20 that we as fishermen are thinking. So I want to thank
21 you for that. And I want to take it forward from there
22 even more.
23 The second thing is, I want to talk about
24 the conservation plan briefly. I want to thank you
25 again for making improvements to it. We, as fishermen,
48
1 were real unhappy with the first draft, but that's a
2 draft. That's why they call it a draft. Y'all made a
3 lot of changes. Not as much as we would like, but,
4 however, we took some big steps forward in -- if we do
5 everything we talk about, we're all going to be a lot
6 happier, as far as bass fishermen are concerned. And I
7 guess the one thing that I would like for this
8 commission to really consider and I'm not going to get
9 up here and beat anybody down, right now. But I think
10 that we do need to consider the fisheries in Texas. We
11 spend a lot of money. It's down. Income is down. The
12 conservation plan says we need to keep license sales
13 where it needs to be. I agree. We need to increase
14 them. But we can't do that unless we get better fishing
15 and fish easier to catch by young people. I would like
16 this commission to really consider appointing a
17 committee to address this problem and talk about this
18 problem, in conjunction with Mr. Cook who I've had
19 several meetings, to see if we can address some issues
20 and come up with some things that this commission and
21 Parks and Wildlife can try to do. We can't improve
22 fishing, increase revenue, because y'all do a great job.
23 Y'all donate a lot of time. And I personally thank you
24 for it. But I feel like we can certainly go forward and
25 do whole lot more. So, thank you, very much.
49
1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Pam Lawrie,
2 Karen Hadden.
3 MS. HADDEN: Good afternoon, Madame
4 Chairman and Commissioners. My name is Karen Hadden.
5 I'm here on behalf the SEED Coalition, which is
6 sustainable economic and environmental development. And
7 what I would like to talk about today -- and I want to
8 thank Mr. Cook for having listened to this concern
9 raised in a meeting recently. But I do feel that the
10 agency is currently not doing an adequate job of letting
11 the public know about fish advisories. And I am asking
12 your help today. Most states, when a fishing license is
13 purchased, they actually provide information about fish
14 advisories and bans. And that is not happening in
15 Texas. Someone who is lucky might get a copy of the
16 outdoor annual. Out of 104 pages, on page 62 there is
17 one paragraph that refers to the fact that in some
18 locations there are bans on the possession of fish.
19 Never once is the word pollution used. That is not
20 adequate notification to the public. This could be
21 because of breeding purposes or trying to restock
22 species that are present. So it does give a web site.
23 Many people who fish do not have internet access. And a
24 phone number -- this is one of those things where it
25 could take you days to get the information on the phone.
50
1 What I'm saying is that printed information needs to be
2 handed to everyone who gets a license.
3 My son is now 17. He likes to camp and
4 fish. And when he and his friends get licenses, they
5 need to have this information provided to them,
6 especially as they get older and travel throughout the
7 state. They're going to be fishing in new places. And
8 they want to know where it's safe to eat the fish and
9 where it's not.
10 The reason this is of concern, there are
11 many pollutants that are impacting fish. In the case of
12 Mercury, it's serious because young children exposed to
13 this Mercury can end up with learning disabilities,
14 attention deficit disorder. There's links to autism and
15 mental retardation. As a former teacher, I can you we
16 afford this. And those that subsistence fish are most
17 likely to get those impacts. So this is families most
18 likely with lower income, those who can least afford to
19 have children with Special Ed needs. So I thank you for
20 taking this seriously. I'd like to point out that, out
21 of 100 publications in the lobby, there is not one thing
22 available about fish advisories. Two of the staff
23 people at the front desk today were unable to answer the
24 question about whether advisories exist in this state.
25 This is the main location for buying a license.
51
1 Furthermore, I went personally to the
2 Athens fishing center which I want to say a beautiful.
3 And, again, as a teacher it's a beautiful facility.
4 Five employees there could tell me nothing about any
5 fishing advisories in the state and didn't know quite
6 who to ask about that. I find that appalling because,
7 if we're teaching young children to fish, they need to
8 know what fish are safe to eat and whether they're not. I
9 think it's important to address the problem, to clear it
10 up. Mercury contamination is coming from power plants.
11 We can address that.
12 We are working with many organizations,
13 including the fishermen, many of the organizations
14 present in this room. We have been meeting with the
15 TNRCC to correct the problem. What we'd like you to do
16 is help get the word out. We want to you push for
17 legislation that allows you to post signs where
18 advisories exist because, in many cases, they are not
19 up. I'd like you to do a better job of getting the word
20 out when people buy licenses. And, lastly, there was an
21 agreement -- if I may wrap up -- there was an agreement
22 to post these advisories to link to them on the web
23 site. And that's been done, it's so buried no one can
24 find it. So please help put that on the home page.
25 Thank you.
52
1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Scott Thrash
2 following Pam Lawrie.
3 MS. LAWRIE: Good afternoon. My name is
4 Pam Lawrie. I'm a program manager with the Texas
5 Association of Community Action Agencies. We administer
6 a program called the Hunters for the Hungry. And you
7 should have a one-page handout that describes and gives
8 you some background on the program. Texas Hunters for
9 the Hungry is a program that is a statewide antihunger
10 initiative. What we do is coordinate the hunters, the
11 meat processors, and the food assistance providers.
12 Last year, working together, Texas hunters and meat
13 processors provided 92,000 pounds of wild game that was
14 used then to provide to the food assistance providers
15 and ultimately helped feed needy Texans. I want to
16 thank the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. You've
17 been part of the success of this program.
18 Just recently this year, you've assisted
19 us by putting information about the Hunters for the
20 Hungry in the cold storage record book. And adding a
21 column so that meat processors can check a donation when
22 it's for the Hunters for the Hungry. You've helped us
23 with publication information in your -- for example,
24 your public hunting land booklet. And staff has helped
25 us with having brochures available. The reason I'm here
53
1 today is to, once again, ask for your help. In Texas,
2 in addition to donating the game, the Texas hunters, on
3 average, give about an additional $20 to help defray the
4 cost of meat processing and that's discouraging to the
5 hunters.
6 The meat processers also donate their
7 time and their resources. And over the recent years, we
8 continue to lose meat processors that are willing to
9 participate in the program. Compared to other states,
10 the wild game donations in Texas are relatively low.
11 Compared to Virginia, about 230,000 pounds were donated
12 last year. Wisconsin, 175,000 pounds were donated.
13 Texas, even though it was our best year ever, was the
14 92,000 pounds. One reason that these other states are
15 more successful is the existence of funds to help
16 support the program. The wild game that's being donated
17 by Texas hunters, that's being processed by meat
18 processors is a wonderful source of protein for hungry
19 children and needy families. To maintain the program,
20 though, and ultimately to help it achieve it's
21 potential, the program needs a consist source of
22 donations.
23 We're asking that the Texas Parks and
24 Wildlife Department continue to work with us to help us
25 enhance this program, to help us learn about donation
54
1 possibilities and what we can do together with you. And
2 I do want to conclude by saying we appreciate the
3 assistance that you have provided to date for this
4 program. And look forward to working with you in the
5 future.
6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Scott Thrash, Jane Luchan (sic)
7 MR. THRASH: Hi, my name is Scott Thrash. I am
8 president of Deer Texas.com. Also an advisory council
9 member on Hunters for the Hungry. And I wanted to take
10 a minute to acknowledge David Sinclair and Jerry Cooke
11 for their recent help of our ongoing project. The state of
12 Virginia -- Pam had mentioned, we had 230,000 pounds of venison
donated
13 the last year by their hunters as we had 92,000 here in
14 Texas. And in that state, they have an option for
15 hunters to donate a dollar to the program when they buy
16 their hunting license. It's come to my attention
17 recently that that would take legislative action here in
18 Texas for that to happen. It's also come to my
19 attention that that probably wouldn't be in the best
20 interest of Parks and Wildlife if we went that route.
21 So I just want to reiterate what Pam said, that we look
22 forward to your continued support and help. Thank you,
23 very much.
24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Jane or
25 Jay -- I'm sorry. Jaye Lycan. I'm so sorry.
55
1 MS. LYCAN: That's okay.
2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: And then Sylvan
3 Rossi.
4 MS. LYCAN: Good afternoon. My name is
5 Jaye Lycan. I'm the executive director of eastside
6 ministries of Fort Worth, a food assistance provider.
7 We are a small food and clothing ministry in East Fort
8 Worth that takes care of needy. Last year we were one
9 of hundreds of food banks in the state, and my ministry
10 gave out over $150,000 in food items to our clients.
11 Protein is a scarce commodity. Has shown that protein
12 is a very important component of early childhood brain
13 cell development. Texas is second as the highest number
14 of households experiencing food insecurity. This is a
15 polite way of saying that 32 percent under 12 in Texas suffer
from
16 malnutrition or out right hunger. Visualize with me
17 that three of you on the board represent that profile.
18 Hunters for the Hungry offers community service action with many
positive factors. Hunters are allowed to
19 share their bounty with our state's most precious
20 resource, our youth. A program enthusiastically promoted as
Hunters for
21 the Hungry can enrich our food bank with this excellent with
source of protein
22 exposing young Texans to venison is a great way to introduce
23 new hunters to our outdoors. I would encourage Texas Parks and
Wildlife
24 Department to continue supporting Hunters for the Hungry
25 and helping development strategies to develop the
56
1 program. Thank you very much for your time.
2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. And
3 thanks to Hunters for the Hungry. Great job. Sylvan Rossi and
then
4 Jim Carr.
5 MR. ROSSI: Madame Chairman, Commission, I
6 appreciate the opportunity to have a chance to speak
7 with you today. Four years ago -- I represent the
8 Korima Foundation. I'm the president. And our next
9 speaker, Jim Carr, is the founder of our organization.
10 Four years ago, we started out as a
11 Friends Group associated with the Big Bend Ranch State Park.
And our
12 concept was to use the vast resources of the Big Bend Ranch as
an educational
13 outdoor classroom for at risk inner-city youth. And
14 thanks to the executive office, parks department, and Lydia's
staff, we were all able to get off it a
15 very good start, and have since incorporated as a 5083C
16 and formed long-term relationships with
17
18 long-term agreement with Sul Russ University, the University of
Texas , University of Houston, and have also obtained funding from the Brown
19
20 Foundation Houston Endowment, Hershey Foundation, among others.
21 We're simply are here to appreciate the support that we
22 received from you. To start and ask for your continuing
23 support as we seek to grow our program. Thank you very
24 much.
25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Jim Carr
57
1 and Art Pasley.
2 MR. CARR: Thank you. I'm with the
3 Korima Foundation, also. And when we first started out,
4 we had to go to the Houston Independent School District
5 and get them to approve our plan. Now, the Houston
6 Independent school district has over 200,000 students. And we
went and
7 talked to Dr. Page, who is now the secretary of education.
8 And he was all enthused about our program. And he said,
9 well, now, how many people are you going to be able to
10 take out there each year? We said, well, probably 50.
11 And he'd been having a hard day 200,000. So we've done
12 a lot with inner-city school kids and they are without a
13 doubt the best kids we've ever dealt with. The best
14 thing that's really happened to us is when Bob Cook told
15 us that he couldn't have poor relatives like us. We was
16 going to have to finance our own money. So we got out
17 and actually did that and thank you Mr. Cook at the time
18 I thought you was a rear end of a horse, but I've
19 changed my mind now. So anyhow, we've to the still
20 going to work with kids. And we thank you for the
21 support that you've given us and thanks for the Houston
22 and San Antonio School District, also.
23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
24 MR. PASLEY: Madame Chairman,
25 commissioners of the board, Mr. Cook, attendees. I'm
58
1 Art Pasley, Southern director for the Cast for Kids Foundation.
I have
2 some brochures for y'all that I left with the second
3 earlier. We are a nonprofit organization based in
4 Renton, Washington with a Dallas office and Jamestown, Ohio
5 office that promote and organize outdoor fishing trips for
6 disabled kids in Texas.
7 You've heard today about the hunting
8 trips for kids you've heard about senior city programs
9 for kids. But you haven't heard a single program that's
10 primary focus is to the disabled and disadvantaged. Our
11 projects range from 35 to 40 kids at a time. Pairing
12 them with volunteer boaters civic groups and individual
13 volunteers to help take the kids out fishing on the
14 water, take them out of their wheel chairs out of their
15 crutches provide them with rod and reels, tackle boxes,
16 T-shirts, hats, and plaques with a picnic lunch on shore
17 and the plaques are presented to the child with a
18 picture of them and their boater at the conclusion of
19 the day. The cost for this is not that great, although
20 it is a barrier for us in Texas and other states to
21 obtain funding for this. I have presented, too, Parks
22 and Wildlife a request for the outdoor outreach program
23 grant money and I would asked that y'all encourage the
24 outreach board - review board, to take a good look at our
request and
25 see if we can't partner Texas Parks and Wildlife with
59
1 the Cast for Kids program in the same manner that we
2 have in states such as Washington, Oklahoma, Florida,
3 Nebraska, North Carolina, with a Bureau of Reclamation Corp of
4 Engineers. and the Washington State Game and Fish Department.
Thank
5 you.
6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Helen Holdworth.
7 Whitney Marion.
8 MS. HOLDWORTH: Madame chairman and
9 Commissioners and Mr. Cook, my name is Helen Holdworth.
10 And I'm here for the Texas Brigades Program. Texas
11 youth need all of us to help build the knowledge and skill they
need to shape their future. Their
12 future is the future of Texas and Texas wildlife. I
13 would like to thank you, Texas Parks and Wildlife, for
14 your - for your involvement with the Texas Brigades family by
investing in
15 the future of wildlife and tomorrow's conservation
16 leaders. Your investment will pay dividends for Texas
17 youth and Texas wildlife. We would like to give special
18 thanks to the following Texas Parks and Wildlife
19 Department employees for their involvement this past summer
20 with the Texas Brigades, they were Robert Perez
21 Jim Gallagher, Kevin O'Neal, Michelle Haggerty, Charlie
Newberry, Bruce Biermann, David Synatzke, Misty Summner, Jimmy Rutledge, John
Burke, Chip Ruthman, Jean Foxx, Moyce Moore, Kathy McGinny, , Dana Wright, Jimmy
John Edwards, Jim Lineburger, Scotty Parsons, Dale Burr, Dwayne Lucia, we thank
you you
25 for your support.
60
1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Whitney Marion.
2 Anson Howard.
3 MS. MARION: I'm Whitney Marion. And thanks to
4 to Texas Wildlife Association and Texas Parks and Wildlife
Department. I
5 had the amazing opportunity to attend the Buckskin
6 Brigades camp this summer held at the Chapparal Ranch in Zavala
County. Before
7 I went, I was kind of a little city girl whose family
8 had land. And I had an interest in wildlife, but I
9 never really knew how I could ever make a contribution and
attending the Buckskin
10 Brigade added a new dimension to my life. And I am now
11 more educated and know how to better manage our land and
12 wildlife. I've also become a resource for anyone who
13 has questions about deer habitat management. And have
14 been able to offer numerous consultations on their land.
15 I'm sure my story has been repeated in the lives of
16 everyone who has gotten the opportunity to attend -- to the
either the Bob White
17 Brigade or the Buckskin Brigade. The Buckskin Brigade
18 gives young people, the chance to meet the experts in the field.
And they
19 become role models and resources for their environment
20 in deer and land management. Every dollar invested in
21 the Texas Brigades is returned multi-fold in the form of public
education
22 and increased emphasis on the conservation of Texas's
23 ideal eco systems. Through the enthusiastic efforts of these
cadets, the
24 citizens of Texas even enjoy increased appreciation for
25 conservation policies. Thank you so much for your time
61
1 and effort. And here is Anson to talk about the Bob
2 White Brigade.
3 MR. HOWARD: Good afternoon. My name is
4 Anson Howard. And this summer I attended both camps --
5 Texas Brigades. It was a life changing experience. After
6 the completion of the camp, we cadets have the knowledge
7 and capability to make the difference in the world of
8 wildlife management. Texas Parks and Wildlife
9 Department Cooperative Extension TWA, NRCS and many
10 other private and public organizations have made Texas
11 Brigades possible. We thank you for the contribution of
12 funds and the time of your employees that helped us
13 throughout the week. Texas Wildlife Association has
14 played a major role in the founding and continuation of
15 the Brigades. They are not a public organization, but a
16 group of landowners, hunters, and conservationists who
17 are dedicated to preservation of habitat and rights to
18 hunt and fish. TWA has limits though and cannot
19 privately fund the organizations and research projects that are
necessary to
20 accomplish all that it wants to. Look at what TWA and
21 Texas Parks and Wildlife Department have already
22 accomplished. All right. Now think what they can
23 accomplish when they work hand in hand to preserve the
24 lone star state for future generations. Deer hunting in
25 Texas has seen the same boom that the oil industry did
62
1 decades ago. Quail though continue to be overlooked
2 while millions of dollars each year are spent on the research
and
3 preservation of deer habitat. In some areas of state,
4 quail play a major role in the county's economy. There
5 are other benefits to an increased quail population.
6 These birds require habitat with good grasses and brush. This
eliminates some of the problems Texas
7 is faced with today. Having good ground cover means
8 that when it does rain water will not run off into the rivers
carrying topsoil
9 along with it. Instead the much needed rain will soak
10 into the ground providing cities with water to meet their
11 vast requirements. We ask the Texas Parks and Wildlife
12 Department step up the research on quail and dedicate more
13 funds to educating landowners on the benefits of increased quail
populations.
14 When the land is suitable for quail it is a win win
15 situation. Everyone benefits. Texas Parks and Wildlife
16 Department should feel proud to be part of such an esteemed
organization as the Brigades.
17 The cadets thank you for the support that you have given
18 and hope that you will continue supporting Bob White and
Buckskin Brigade.
19 Texas Parks and Wildlife Department has taken the
20 initiative to invest in the future of hunting and we
21 applaud you for that. As Derrick Bark of Harvard University
stated, if you
22 think education is expensive, try ignorance.
23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Robert Brown and
24 Neal Wilkins.
25 MR. BROWN: I'm Bob Brown, I'm head the
Department of
63
1 Wildlife and Fishery Sciences at Texas A&M. And I'm
2 here today just to thank you on behalf of our students
3 and our faculty for your continued support of our
4 research programs, extension programs, and our academic
5 programs. Unofficially, I can probably thank you on
6 behalf of the other eight universities in Texas that have
similar programs funded by
7 Texas Parks and Wildlife. At Texas A&M right now, our
department
8 as has 14 active research projects funded by Texas Parks
9 and Wildlife totaling over a million dollars in funding. These
range from population
10 studies on alligators to studies on Rio Grande turkeys
11 mourning doves, white-wing doves, a study on economic
12 impacts of anglers at the Sam Rayburn fishery, studies on
prairie chicken habitat,
13 the Texas shrimp fishery,
14 distribution of black-capped vireos, and analysis of use of
boating
15 facilities in Texas. These projects fund over 20 graduates
16 studying for degrees and Ph.D.s. In addition, we have about
17 $200,000 this year alone from Parks and Wildlife funding our
extension programs. These
18 include very collaborative efforts on the Texas masters
naturalist program, our
19 conservation education program which includes both aquatic and
20 hunter education and collaborative efforts to address the quail
decline in
21 Texas. And importantly this year Texas Parks and
22 Wildlife , Texas A&M, and the Texas Wildlife Association are
sharing
23 leadership in an important effort called the Future of Hunting
in
24 Texas. But the most important thing I think you do for us, that
costs you the
25 least money is your support of our academic programs. At Texas
A&M, we
64
1 have about 400 undergraduates and 200 graduate students in
wildlife and
2 fisheries. Dr. Slack is with me today. He brings over
3 our freshman class every semester to sit in on your Commission
4 meetings. Those have been very enlightening to our students and
I think they've probably been enlightening to Dr. Slack as well.
5 In addition, we take literally hundreds of students on dozens
of
6 field trips to your management areas and your fish hatcheries.
7 you also support summer internships for our students and I know
that funding
8 is tight but I encourage you to maintain it as well as
9 possible. Also, you we house both Michelle Haggerty who
10 is our master naturalist coordinator in our department -- is
housed in our department
11 as is Matt Wagner our local technical biologist who
12 works with our students and our clubs on deer check
13 station and burns and things of that nature. Matt is also
pursuing a Ph.D. in our department.
14 And finally I would like to thank you
15 and particularly for all your staff from your director on
16 down for their constant willingness to come over to
17 college station and give talks to our students, both in their
classes and in their club
18 meetings. This hands on experience in dealing with
19 wildlife management and policy issues in Texas is
20 absolutely essential for the training of our future
21 biologists in this state. Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Neal Wilkins and
23 Susie Marek.
24 MR. WILKINS: Madame Chairman, members of
25 the Commission, my name is Neal Wilkins. I'm the
65
1 extension program leader for Wildlife and Fisheries at
2 Texas A&M. One of the things I want to do is actually
3 point out a couple of the partnerships that Texas Parks and
4 Wildlife has with Texas A&M and our Texas Cooperative
5 extension. You've already heard about one of those
6 partnerships, the Texas Brigades. You've heard
7 about the cooperative and collaborative efforts that Parks and
Wildlife employees
8 have with our academic programs. With our extension programs
9 we have two very important partnerships and these play
partnerships
10 well into the sunset provisions that you were asked to
11 emphasize this last year. One of those is our
12 conservation education program. Through the efforts of
13 Steve Hall, your education division director, we have
14 hunter education programs which leverage our 4H leaders
15 and adult volunteers to meet our joint mission of youth
16 education, through this program, the end product are
17 adult volunteers which work with youth in hunter
18 education work with youth in everything from the Texas
19 youth hunting program to efforts in minority and under
20 privileged inner-city youth in making sure that we have
21 proper recruitment of those individuals into our hunting
22 population. We have an angler education program which
23 reaches thousands of kids per year. And we also have a
24 cooperative program Prairie View A&M that you are a partnership
in.
25 That partnership with Prairie View A&M helps conduct natural
resources camps every
66
1 year. With Prairie View A&M that reach hundreds of
2 minority children coming out of the major metropolitan
3 areas and actually gives them their first experiences at
4 fishes and also encourages them to participate in other
5 outdoor education activities. We have dozens of examples of
other
6 effective partnerships -- one of them is Texas master naturalist
7 program. Texas master naturalist program has resulted in 1700
trained
8 volunteers -- over 100,000 hours of volunteer effort. It's
9 been dedicate to do natural resources in the State of
10 Texas. I want to thank you for the support of these
11 programs, encourage you to expand these when you
12 can and keep these partnerships alive with Texas cooperative
extension. Thank you very much.
13
14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Jeannie
15 Dullnig after Susie Marek.
16 MS. MAREK: Madame chairwoman, Commission,
17 Mr. Cook, friends of the staff here at Texas Parks and
18 Wildlife, my name is Susie Marek and I am the executive director
of the Friends of Inks Lake State Park
19 Our Memorandum of Agreement between state parks
20 Texas Parks and Wildlife rather and the Friends of Inks
21 Lake State Park expires on August 31st. And I'm here to
22 let you know that the consensus of the board of directors is to
not pursue a new
23 memorandum of agreement. Our group at Inks also will shortly
24 dissolve after August 31st, as soon as the last donation check
25 has cleared the bank. Per our contract a list of physical
property purchased with
67
1 Friends money has been provided to Bill Granbury, Region 7
2 director for review anything that TPWD wishes to have
3 off of that list of course would become yours Per our contract
4 Also the monies in the Friends bank account will be
5 forwarded to a 501C3. And we've decided to forward that
6 money to the Foundation of Parks and Wildlife to the
7 Lone Star Legacy Endowment Fund, dedicated to Inks Lake
8 State Park. Our reason for terminating our relationship
9 is the removal and the transfer of superintendent Paul Kisel.
Paul
10 has been the superintendent at Inks for the last six years. He
11 was the assistant superintendent for seven years prior to that.
Paul
12 was a dramatic force in bringing tremendous changes to
13 the park, a lot of improvements and expanded electrical sights
14 increased facilities to accommodate the handicapped
15 above and beyond basic requirements. And a total
16 revamping of the park screen shelters to mini cabins. We felt
the
17 distinct loyalty and we still do to Paul Kisel and to Inks Lake
State
18 Park mainly because of Paul's commitment to our park to
19 our visitors and to our community. There's been no
20 reasonable explanation given for the action taken
21 against Mr. Kisel and with our heart and sole being
22 transferred to the Texas Oklahoma border, I believe at
23 Eisenhower -- the climate the way it is right now we no
24 longer wish to be partners. On a personal note, I've
25 been a volunteer since 1994 at Inks and a camper at Inks since
68
1 1967. I have met many dedicated Texas Parks and
2 Wildlife during this time. And I've actually worked
3 with a number of you from time to time in my role as
4 board member on Texans for state parks. I have truly
5 enjoyed my volunteering experience with the possible exception
of the long days down
6 at the legislature. Unfortunately, the management
7 decision to remove Paul Kisel saddens me greatly and
8 but to move on. I thank you very much for your time
9 today.
10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Dullnig and John Robinson.
11 MS. DULLNIG: Madame Chairman and members
12 of the Commission, thank you for having me today. I'm
13 Jeannie Dullnig, and I represent the Stewards of the
14 Nueces, which is a group of landowners and
15 conservationists that came together out of our mutual
16 concern for the health of the Nueces River. We are also
17 river users in that we swim and canoe, kayak, fish, many of us
18 hike and bird watch in the beautiful and scenic Nueces
19 River. So we believe in the public's rights to use the
20 river, but we don't feel that the public has the right to abuse
any
21 resource. We are not a special interest group and we're
22 not asking for anything for ourselves. We simply want
23 to see a wonderful state-owned resource preserved and
24 protected. We were here in a large group this time last
25 year. We testified about the negative impact of off
69
1 road motorized vehicles in the river and we documented our
2 testimony with photographs. We decided not to come in
3 mass this year. We know your time is valuable and we
4 know you heard us, but we are still concerned. We're
5 more concerned than ever. And the abuse of public
6 streambeds continues and is escalating as an alarming
7 rate. The river cannot defend itself against this type
8 of activity. Since I was standing here one year ago,
9 you have received reports from two of your own biologists
telling of the indisputable damage to the
10 aquatic habitat in the riparian
11 community of the river system. Also in the past year a
12 task force was formed and four meetings were held.
13 After much discussion testimony research and scientific
14 findings Texas Parks and Wildlife staff took the
15 position that motorized vehicle activity is a harmful
16 activity. Page 16 of the final report to the commission
17 states, quote, it is the opinion of Texas Parks and
18 Wildlife staff that in those streambeds where motorized
19 vehicle activities are conducted water quality fish and wildlife
and their
20 habitats are negatively affected by those activities.
21 Motorized vehicle used in a streambed is not a benign activity
rather than
22 research conducted in other states has demonstrated the
23 negative effects of MV use in streambeds on fish and
24 wildlife resources. Preliminary results of
25 investigations in Texas support these findings. It is
70
1 an ecologically harmful activity, end quote. As a
2 result of the task force, TP&W staff came up with two
3 options to present to the legislature as a member of
4 that task force I'd like to say that I support option
5 one and the Stewards of the Nueces also support it.
6 However, we also strongly believe that a state agency
7 should have the legal statutory authority over
8 activities in navigable streambeds and we feel
9 that Texas Parks and Wildlife is the logical one to
10 assume this responsibility. It is our opinion that the
11 ecologically-sensitive river systems in this state should
12 be afforded the same protection and preservation as our
13 state parks and in closing, I urge you honorable commissioners
as
14 managers and conservators of the resources of this great
15 state to please accept the responsibility for these
16 water ways. And protect them before it's too late.
17 Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Hugh Preston Perron.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Chairman Idsal, Commissioners. My
name is John
20 Robinson. I'm a landowner on the Llano River therefore I have a
21 front row seat to the destruction of the Llano riverbed
22 I've provided you with pictures showing you the before and
23 after effects of the traffic. During the past two years
24 I've witnessed the disappearance of the bald eagle, water
25 turkeys, Texas white pelicans, herons,turkeys and
71
1 most of my other bird life. The increase in population
2 has had a big impact on the Llano River. John Graves
3 has written a book about six of the Texas Rivers. One
4 of those is the Llano. I'm going to quote from that.
5 Most of the 18 or 19 miles of the lower river miles from
6 the town of Llano to above Kingsland is not only tough
7 boating but tough to reach. There are few access
8 points. This is a bit hard on the recreationist, but
9 probably good for the river itself since these sections
10 get human use and pay a considerable part in maintaining
11 the streams overall health including fish populations. The
12 pictures I provided you are of that section of the
13 river. So you can see the change from the time that he wrote
his book and today.
14 My concern today is the lack of law enforcement. Drug
15 use is commonly noted. Alcohol consumption is a
16 concern most drivers leaving the river have been drinking
heavily
17 and should be checked before driving out on the highway.
18 Ranch Road 3404 upstream the two game wardens issued
19 123 citations between January 2001 and June of 2002.
20 And I was involved in about 40 of those. Many
21 violations are not cited and no law enforcement officer is
22 available. A web site refers to the sheriff of Llano
23 County as a joke. The two game wardens are assigned to patrol
Lakes Buchanan
24 and LBJ on the weekends. I called the game warden last
25 weekend and was informed that they had to turn in the
72
1 four-wheelers and he had no way to respond to my call.
2 We need help. If the legislature does not curtail the vehicle
traffic in the river law
3 enforcement capabilities must be improved and expanded.
4 I hope that we do not have to return to the old days
5 when we had to apprehend the trespassers. Thank you for
6 selecting me to serve on the statewide task force. It
7 was a great experience for me. Thank you.
8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Trey Berndt.
9 MR. PERRON: Madame Chairman and committee
members
10 thank you for this opportunity to talk. I'm Hugh
11 Preston Perron, I ranch Llano County and have ranchland
bordering the Llano River.
12 My brother Leroy Perron, Junior served on the task
13 force and is unable to make it today. He asked me if I can
14 convey his comments on option one and two and also know
15 had written Larry McKinney, senior director of aquatic
resources. I want to
16 respond to Texas Parks and Wildlife proposed option one
17 and two that's a preference I would like to offer
18 observation on our several task force meetings and
19 general exceptions for components one have accepted the
20 expert testimony the people brought before the task
21 force to provide it with the necessary information and
22 the results of a study relating to our mission. Of the
23 many expert presentations made by law enforcement
24 officers, biologists, geologists, hydrologists,
environmentalists, and fishery experts,
25 all components have constantly, vocally, and aggressively
challenged
73
1 every expert that disagreed with their particular
2 points of view. This occurred repeatedly regardless of the
level of qualifications or
3 standings of the experts in his particular field or
4 their experiences or their years of specialized
5 educations or the evidence they brought to support their
6 findings or opinions. Regarding proposed options of the
7 task force to consider, I am in favor of option one.
8 The resource under study is a statewide resource and
9 should be regulated by statewide authorities. The
10 development and the enforcement of the River bed use
11 regulations should be uniform throughout the state to
12 ensure fairness to all those concerned. The regulations
13 should address a single subject. The use of wheel
14 vehicles in or about the riverbeds. Other recreational
15 forms of river And River bed uses are not now and have
16 not been historically a problem. Fishing, boating,
17 hiking, and birding and riparian areas have never created the
18 uproar and public concerns currently associated with
19 wheel vehicle use as in evidence now by several
20 newspaper articles and letters to editors. The state can
21 use funds from the motorized trail program to provide
22 suitable sites for wheeled vehicle use that will not
23 have the serious and adverse environmental impact on
24 being experienced in our state owned riverbeds. My
25 reason for opposing option two are several. Management
74
1 by local options will without doubt result in a
2 mixture of conflict regulations and different
3 jurisdiction and some overly and unnecessary protective
4 and other and permissives as to be useless to the goals
5 to which they are aspire. The lower level of experts
6 and experience going into the regulations making it the
7 local level will result in a less objective, less
8 informed and less manageable result. A far better and
9 more comprehensive result is likely to emerge from the
10 effort of the state agencies with years of cumulative
11 experience in the field. A large and trained staff
12 educated in the subject at hand and adequate funding and
13 resource to devote to the task.
14 Additionally, if control is regulated in individual
15 communities the likelihood of political contest at the
16 local level of control over this new authority is likely
17 to be heated and diversities and various local interests
actively vie
18 for control.
19 MR. COOK: Mr. Perron -- got a
20 red light here.
21 MR. PERRON: Okay. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER ANGELO: We have your letter sir.
22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Trey Berndt and Sky
23 Lewey.
24 MR. BERNDT: Good afternoon. I'm Trey
25 Berndt. I'm representing myself. My wife really doesn't
believe I can say anything in three
75
1 minutes. So if I do that, I'd like somebody to send her
2 a note or something. I've been fishing and swimming and
3 paddling in Texas rivers for about 30 years. I
4 represent really - I've come to you as a perspective
5 of fly fisherman, but I think you'll find my perspective as
6 common among paddlers and landowners, as well.
7 First off, I'd like to really thank the
8 Commission for the hard work on this subject and the excellent
staff
9 report and I'd like to commend the staff that wrote the report.
It's tough to come out and
10 give your opinion when you work for a state agency sometime and
11 be clear about it. And this report does. And this
12 report documents that wheeled use of vehicles is an
13 ecologically destructive. And that's a very clear
14 statement. And I think the whole issue needs to start
15 from there.
16 Pictures are worth a thousand words -- I can
17 show you pictures and maybe get under my three minutes I
18 pulled these off the web site from one of the off road
19 organizations this documents the problem far better
20 than I could tell you. It shows multiple vehicles in
21 the river. One photo -- and I'm going to leave these
22 with you. One photo shows up to ten or 11 vehicles in
23 the river or entering the river at the same time. I can
24 tell you, as a fly fisherman -- and I should back up. I
25 floated this section of river that are in these pictures
76
1 about a number of months ago. And it was very
2 discouraging as a fly fisherman. Got to have two things
3 for bass, I'm not a wildlife biologist, but I don't think ou'll
disagree with me. You've got to have bugs.
4 You've got to have aquatic life. You've got to have
5 minnows. That's what they eat. That's your bass
6 fishery right there. There's no way that either of
7 those things are going to be in this area. The bugs
8 won't reproduce, the aquatic insect life won't be there, the
minnows will head for
9 the hills. The bass will be gone. So I would ask you
10 to take a look at these -- they're discouraging. And when
11 I floated through there several months ago, I saw multiple wheel
tracks
12 no sign of fish life. And maybe more importantly and
13 this goes to the issue of is being in the river the
14 issue. Well, being in the river isn't the issue. The issue is
is being in the
15 streambed. Because in the areas where there had been
16 multiple wheeled vehicle activity and these are generally large
groups ten or 11 that go down the
17 river and the pictures will show you that, the bank
18 was eroded, as well. And there were terribity (sic) in the
19 stream. Fundamentally I'm going to go under my three minutes nd
I'm going to leave you these pictures.
20 This is fish habitat issue. That's the first thing we
21 need to protect. And I would ask for the Commission's
22 help as we work on the legislation on this issue.
23 That you guys can support and help us protect this
24 resource. And thanks again for your time.
25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Charles Draper next.
77
1 MS. LEWEY: Madame Chairman, Commissioners. My
name is Sky Lewey.
2 I work for the Nueces River Authority. Con Mims couldn't be
with
3 us today. He asked me to bring his remarks. Chairman
4 Idsal and Commissioners, as a member of your
5 recreational vehicles in state owned stream beds task force, I
6 want to thank you for authorizing the group and
7 especially to commend Dr. McKinney and the other TPWD
8 staff who helped him guide this task force. For their
9 highly professional and courteous conduct. Your staff
10 was outstanding and it was a pleasure and honor to
11 serve. Your staff has presented to you a report.
12 Resulting from the work of this task force titled
13 the findings on use of motorized vehicles in navigable
14 streambed task force. Please note from that report that
15 it is the opinion of TPWD staff that in those stream beds
16 where motorized activity is conducted water quality, fish
17 and wildlife and their habitats are
18 negatively affected and that this is an ecologically
19 harmful activity. They further note that Texas rivers
20 and associated plant communities are some of the last
21 relatively in tact, unaffected wildlife and fishery
22 habitats left in Texas. They warn that it appears
23 unlikely that the water quality habitat and fish and
24 wildlife resources in those streams experiencing a water
25 activity can are sustained over the long term.
78
1 Especially if the ORV activity continues and grows as it
2 is expected to do. Please note that this activity is
3 continuing and growing and has spread to the reaches of
4 the upper Nueces River that a year ago were virtually
5 untouched, as shown in the attached photographs. I want
6 to reiterate the urgency of this resource protection
7 matter. Recreational vehicles are not allowed to
8 operate in riverbeds in any state park or wildlife
9 management area in Texas. Recognizing how damaging ORVs
10 can be to the natural resources and how incompatible
11 they are with other river users, other states in the
12 country have laws authorizing the banning of vehicles
13 from the rivers or otherwise controlling their use.
14 Overall, 33 states have river protection laws designed
15 to protect the recreational aesthetic and natural
16 resource values of their rivers. ORVs should not be
17 allowed to spoil the opportunities of other
18 recreationists to fish and swim and paddle and otherwise
19 enjoy a natural environment. They should not be allowed
20 to destroy the beauty of our public rivers for the sake
21 of recreation. Your support of any action to prohibit
22 the use of off-road vehicles in state-owned streambeds
23 would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your
24 considerations of these comments. Con Mims executive
25 director.
79
1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thanks to the Nueces
2 River Authority. Charles Draper. Susanna Freduig.
3 Freduig?
4 MR. DRAPER: Good afternoon, Madame
5 Commissioner and Commissioners. My name is Charles
6 Draper, I'm the steward of the Nueces River. Unfortunately,
7 I'm not going to have the full-time with my three minute
allocation to get
8 to the report that you are getting right now. It's a
9 presentation I made to the Natural Resource Committee
10 back in February 27th. It really deals with public
11 lands and the gradient boundary theory, which seems to be a real
problematical issue between
12 private property rights and what actually belongs to the
13 public lands.
14 Under the Texas Administrative Code on
15 chapter-- subchapter eight, chapter 65 the subchapter
16 applies to all activities subject to the Department of
17 Regulation on lands designated by the department as
18 public hunting lands regardless of the presence or absence of
boundary markers.
19 The important point is public hunting lands are acquired
20 by lease or licensed or management agreements trades
21 gift purchased. These records are of acquisition are on file
with department of Central
22 depository. In summary, they're recorded
23 conveyances. So the problem is that according to Ben
24 Thompson, who is the General Land Office head surveyor
25 is that the Nueces River none of the Texas rivers have
80
1 ever been surveyed, so there is no survey that
2 ascertain where that boundary line is. With regard to
3 the public domain verses gradient boundaries in chapter 21 of
the public survey of
4 lands it says each survey of public land shall be made
5 under the authority of law and by a surveyor duly
6 appointed, elected, licensed, and qualified according to the
7 Vernon Texas Civil Statutes.
8 Now we consider where the state or the
9 landowners survey established the matter of law -- the boundary
between the Canadian riverbed and the riparian land.
10 The legislative resolution gave landowner
11 permission to sue the State of Texas as to locate the
12 boundary in Senate House bill 165. But more importantly I would
like to go and try
13 to delineate where the gradient boundary is. And we had
14 a landmark case that came out of the Texas Supreme Court
15 which on page two is Brainard, Rogers, Briscoe, Pickens,
Pickens, Morrison Cattle Company, Whittenburg, Klein, Turner, Bowes,
Whittenburg, et.al petitioners against the State of Texas
16
17 and the General Land Office. And they really
18 looked to Oklahoma versus Texas act which said is in
19 bold this bank is typically the (inaudible) bank and is
20 seldom at -- it the erosion or the cut bank. The point
21 is that a lot of the problem with the 4X4s
22 that are in the rivers they don't delineate between where the
gradient boundaries are and what
23 the public lands are and so if they can't delineate it.
24 It's very difficult to ascertain what they are
25 trespassing on and what is actually public lands. So I guess we
would like to ask you and
81
1 the commission to educate law enforcement so that they
2 would understand what the gradient boundary is and what is
3 part of the public domains in this next legislative
4 session.
5 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Susanna Freduig.
6 MS. FREDUIG: Hi there. I'm Susanna Freduig.
7 For me to be up here, you know it has to be really
8 important. I support the mission of the Stewards of the
9 Nueces. And I was born and raised in Uvalde County.
10 I've grown up forever up and down the river with my
11 brother. We'd go fishing and love the river. But we're
12 seeing it destroyed. And if we don't act now, we're
13 going to lose it. I've got grand kids. I don't want to
14 lose it. So I'm asking y'all to please help us with
15 this situation and save it for -- for my grand kids and for
16 your grand kids. Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
18 (inaudible)
19
20 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: David Langford.
21 Bobby Beamer.
22 MR. LANGFORD: Thank you, Madame Chairman,
members of the Commission. I'm
23 David Langford and I am representing the Texas Wildlife
24 Association. You've heard today from our president,
25 Derry Gardner, and our new CEO, Kirby Brown, and also a
82
1 couple of our brigade cadets. I am fortunate enough to
2 have a new CEO at TWA that will allow me to go back to being a
3 photographer that sometimes helps out around at the TWA
4 office. Consequently, this may be my last time with any
5 official TWA status at this annual public hearing. Next
6 year in August, I might be a private citizen. I'll
7 still be here, but I'll probably be a private citizen.
8 I'd like to take this opportunity to thank those that I
9 have had the privilege to work with since starting in my
10 official capacity here. I have worked with all of the
11 Commission chairmen since Ed Cox to present. I have
12 worked with all of those commissioners since then to
13 present. I was here when Lee bass and Chuck Nash were
14 just commissioners. I've also had the privilege to work
15 with all of the executive directors from then to
16 present. Of course I worked longest officially with
17 Andy Sansom but since Bob Cook and I have known each
18 other since this was a warm shallow sea. I feel like that I
19 have worked with him for a long time. And I
20 especially appreciate working with all of the staff
21 from then to present. Listening to all of these people we
22 have all worked together on many many issues. Some have
23 been very difficult and complicated. Some have been
24 very derisive. Some have been very devisive. Some have
25 been pretty easy to take either side on the debate team.
83
1 And very few have been pretty easy. One of those is I
2 say easy I mean philosophically, not necessarily
3 procedurely or getting it done. I close by saying
4 that this - listen -- is an easy one. There's nothing to this.
5 It's simple. It's not an access issue. This is a
6 damage issue. You cannot go over to the grounds of
7 that pink building over here in downtown Austin - you can
sunbathe, you can picnic,
8 you can do whatever you want to out there. It's not an access
problem,
9 but you cannot have a tractor pull down there. You can
10 go over here to the Bob Bullock Museum and have all the
11 access you want in there, but you can't get out your ropes and
put tons and
12 drive holes in the wall and climb up to the top of the
13 building. Why do you allow the activities outside the
14 borders of Garner State Park that you would not allow
15 inside. I close finish by saying we will go to the '03
16 legislature and work hard to pass legislation not to ban
17 access, but to ban destructive behavior and destructive
18 practices. This is an easy one. Also in favor of the West
Texas management is
19 deer permits. And let me tell you the declaration in
20 that hallway out there looks great. Thank you very
21 much.
22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, David.
23 Bobby Beamer and then Allen Mize.
24 MR. BEAMER: My name is Bobby Beamer.
25 I'm from Spring, Texas. I'm one of the founding board
84
1 members of the Texas Motorized Trails Coalition. I'm
2 one of the two representatives for Texas for the National Off-
3 Highway Vehicle Conservation Council. And I'm not here to talk
4 about river access. I'm here to talk about OHV parks.
5 The work that you've done with Andy and the RTF grant
6 program to help TMTC make an impact and give people a
7 place to go is tremendous. It's historical. And that's
8 where your focus should be. As all these issues that
9 I've been monitoring which I haven't been involved in
10 the task force personally, but I've been monitoring all of
11 the documentation and everything that's been going on.
12 And the focus once or twice came across OHV parks and
13 how that was an outlet to give the 200,000 ATVs in this state a
place to
14 go. There's kids sitting in their driveways on ATVs
15 pretending to ride because they have nowhere to go and
16 play. That's where we come in. That's where we've
17 gathered the management team that can help make it
18 possible. I'd like you to look at California's system
19 with 130 privately owned and municipal and nonprofit
20 organization funded managed properties where people can
21 go ride off road, which alleviates the issues that we're
22 having now. I'd like for you look at the PALS Program
23 in California, especially where they give urban kids a
24 chance to go out and play, teach them how to properly
25 use the equipment and have some fun. And as far as
85
1 teenage boys are concerned, an ATV is dangerous and exciting.
2 And that's exactly what they want to do, rather than
3 hang out with their buddies and get in trouble. And if
4 you give them a chance, they'll do it. I talked to Paul
5 Slobak (sic) and Harold Sloams (sic) in California at all of the
6 NOHBC meetings that we've had about their PALS and program and
trying to
7 implement something like that in Texas. It's a
8 difficult job and it's going to be -- it's going to take
9 money and time. But if we can do It, we can take the
10 next generation of kids and get them out of illegal
11 trail riding, which is what my dad and I had to face all
12 the way back when I started riding, and still do. And
13 focus them in these little pocket parks that we can
14 build close to urban areas where the kids and their dads can
load them in the
15 truck -- 20 minutes later there are some place where they can
have some fun and they're not going
16 to be tempted to go riding illegally on the creeks and the
springs and the bayous close
17 to their homes. Got my speech. I'd like you to -- I'd
18 like you to help the recreational trails fund make two
19 changes, if at all possible. Probably not possible, but
20 if at all possible that the first it GLO properties
21 and Texas Parks and Wildlife properties that are
22 unsuitable for hike and bike are exactly what the off
23 road community want - nobody else wants them -- give us the
opportunity to use the
24 recreational trails found to buy those properties. And
25 that's all I have to say. That's plenty. That's going
86
1 to keep us busy for the next decade. Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Allan Mize and then Carol
3 Smith.
4 MR. MIZE: Commissioners, thank you for
5 your time. With this there's little I can say. I'm --
6 first of all, I'm Allen Mize. I'm from Uvalde and I'm
7 also a member of the Friends of the Nueces, the Stewards
8 of the Nueces River. I've been a property owner on the
9 Nueces River since I was born. My father bought five
10 acres of land because he loved to enjoy the Nueces
11 River. And I've been there all my life. And there's
12 little I can say about the situation more than any other
13 has said other than an experience that I had here
14 recently in July, just to shed a little light on the
15 magnitude of the situation. The gradient boundary
16 situation was brought up earlier. And when a four-wheel
17 drive vehicle enters the basin within a few hundred yards down
the river,
18 they have to make a decision whether they're going to
19 trespass or whether they're going to drive in the river.
20 That's just the way that the riverbottom is. The state
21 owned property is defined by the gradient boundary. And
22 a four-wheel drive person, as they go down the river,
23 has just got that decision to make - are you going to drive in
the river or are you going to
24 trespass.
25 I was -- I took my six-year-old girl
87
1 fishing about the middle of July. And in the amount of
2 time of the six-year-old's attention span, 53 vehicles
3 went down the river right there around the Montell area.
4 Some in the water some trespassing, but all down the
5 river bottom. One group of 14 and those 14 crossed the
6 river just down stream from where we were. And folks,
7 that's that's pretty hard on the ecology of the river.
8 It's been documented also that these groups have been
9 counted in excessive of 108 vehicles in a row driving down the
10 river. Something has got to be done about this. I think the
challenges at that
11 you face and all of us face is that these folks don't
12 realize that they're doing anything wrong. As a
13 recently elected school board member in Uvalde, I find
14 it shameful that in my own district we don't teach
15 ecology. We've got to get in the classroom at the
16 elementary school level. And I think Texas Parks and
17 Wildlife can maybe get with TDA or TEA, Texas Education
18 Agency, Texas Association of School Boards. And we've
19 got to get in the classroom at the elementary school
20 level and stay there through the through the level and
21 up to graduation. Again, education in the areas of solutions,
park
22 -- the gentlemen before me spoke about parks. Let's
23 give them a place to go. It's a growing sport. Let's
24 just get them out of the Nueces River bottom. And
25 regulation, I think that's the only way to go at
88
1 this situation right now short-term. Long term, it's
2 education. And the last thing I'd say is read your
3 own mission statement. I was going to read it to you,
4 but all of you know it. And it's right there in your
5 mission statement. I read it in the lobby. Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Next I believe we
7 have Carol Smith and followed by Nick Smith.
8 MS. SMITH: Good afternoon,
9 Commissioners, Commissioner Armstrong. My name is Carol
10 Smith. I represent the American Motorcyclists
11 Association Community Council for the Texas Hill
12 Country. I have had handouts please - no dear -- the
13 ones that are in front. I'm sorry. I brought quite a
14 bit of paper with me today. I am also a member of the
15 Riverbed Task Force. I'm also a member of the TMTC
16 Board of Directors, which Bobby Beamer spoke about
17 earlier. At the House of Representatives, I presented a
18 letter from the AMA, which Chairman Idsal should have a
19 copy of. I didn't have enough to give everybody. But
20 I'd like to read the beginning opening statement of
21 that. The American Motorcyclist Association is a not
22 for profit organization founded in 1924 and incorporated
23 in Ohio with nearly 270,000 enthusiast members
24 nationwide. About 10,500 of them live in Texas. Too
25 often, motorized recreation has been managed by
89
1 extremes, either by being ignored or prohibited. The
2 ongoing debate reaffirms the need for the state to manage off-
highway
3 vehicle use by providing appropriate recreation
4 opportunities. In 2001 alone, more than 45,000 new ATVs
5 were told in the state of Texas. Texas ranks number one
6 in ATV sales in the nation. Yet the state provides only
7 minimal managed recreation opportunities. With this,
8 I'd like for you to look at the booklets that you have
9 there. In the very back of that booklet, there is a
10 map. If you'd open that map and look at it, you'll note
11 that California has 133 OHV parks. A number of those
12 are managed by Forestry Service. A number of those are
13 managed by their Parks and Recreation. A number of
14 those are managed by municipalities. When you mention
15 scientific evidence, I have a -- I'm sorry. I keep
16 losing my thing here. I'd like you to notice this stack
17 of paperwork that I've brought here. That is six states
18 that have done months and years of study on OHV
19 recreation usage. This is what Parks and Wildlife has
20 presented. Okay? Rick Taylor, when I interviewed him
21 on November 19th of the year 2001, said that this was an
22 informal survey, that he was not an expert on river
23 ecology. I would ask please that we do more scientific
24 evidence before we have a chance to close these river
25 beds. There are many of these like the Mendacino (sic)
90
1 National Forest upper lake ranger district in upper lake
California, which states that given that 98
2 percent of the erosion occurs during rain storms, the
3 natural ability of the stream to clean sediment out had a big
4 effect on the sample result. This is the downstream
5 control samples were at times cleaner than the upstream
6 control. This is the difference often much greater than
7 the impact from trail runoff.
8 COMMISSIONER COOK: Ma'am?
9 MS. SMITH: Many of with these studies will prove
that with managed
10 recreation opportunities there is no trails damage.
11 There's no stream damage.
12 COMMISSIONER COOK: Okay. Ms. Smith,
13 time is up.
MS. SMITH: Yes.
MR. COOK: Time is up.
14 MS. SMITH: Okay. I have some other
15 information that I'd like to give to you afterwards. I
16 don't have enough time today. But I'd like to work with
17 you in creating managed off-road vehicle opportunities
18 for the state. Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Nick Smith and
20 Raynice Shudde.
21 MR. SMITH: Hi, my name is Nick Smith. And I am
board
22 of directors with the AMA Community Hill Country
23 Council. And a little bit of the testimony y'all have
24 heard here this afternoon concerning tubing and kayaking
25 you need a couple of things for that on the Nueces
91
1 River, which is plenty of water. On the average, from
2 what I've seen, I've been recreating, hunting, trying
3 to fish for about 40 years there. On the average, I see
4 three to six inches of water -- very difficult to kayak
5 in or inner tube. I've spent a lot of time there up and down
the lower part of the Nueces -- the
6 upper side of it. I have seen a lot of things that none
7 pp see coming from particularly the landowners and stuff
8 are very valid about people being drunk, drug use. You
9 can find that anywhere. You don't have to go to the
10 River to find this. It's everywhere. So it's not just
11 strictly something that's happening at the river. And
12 that's kind of a management problem. And I think if we
13 were going to try to close the rivers and deny people
14 vehicular access, then you've basically privatized these
15 areas for all the parents and grandparents and their
16 grandkids, because I will not be able to get there at
17 that point. You have to make places accessible for the
18 handicapped. Most of the good swimming holes that I
19 have found are four or five miles off the beaten path and you're
not going
20 to hike to -- I'm certainly not going to hike to them and if you
close it to vehicle
21 access, you privatize it at that point because your
22 public is basically not going to be there. You're not
23 going to canoe there. You're not going to inner tube there.
There just simply isn't enough
24 water to get in there at any given time. So I ask
25 that we look at some of the options that are being created and
brought forward to
92
1 you, especially in the -- in terms of the studies that
2 have been brought to you'll through Parks and Wildlife. We need
to find out if
3 this river is functioning properly, regardless of what
4 it looks like. Our wildlife and stuff is a different
5 issue from the looks of maybe some running areas and
6 stuff. So we're providing our own studies to find out
7 if the river is functioning properly and what areas of
8 it are doing that. And that's what we hope to
9 accomplish and bring forward to a panel at a later date.
10 We're not going to work out of simple speculation of
11 photographs and people's opinions. I've been to every
12 one of these task force meetings and listened to quite a
13 bit of it. So with some more studies if we find a
14 problem, then hopefully we can find a solution and help
15 solve it. And it's going to be done through studies and
16 not through speculation. Thank y'all.
17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: George Garner: Get
18 ready. I think.
19 MR. GARNER: Madame Chairman and
20 commissioners, my name is George Garner. And I'm not a
21 representative of any organization or anything. I'm
22 just a citizen of Texas. And I my subject today is
23 public use of public land. And I do think there's an
24 issue here about access, because if I wasn't driving a
25 vehicle but just walking down the river, I would find
93
1 landowners -- some of those in this room would object to
2 me being there. Just my presence on this state-owned
3 land is an offense to them. And I feel like that 97
4 percent of the state is privately owned as it is.
5 There's three percent left needs to be kept open to the
6 public for the public's use. And I agree with the
7 gentlemen prior to me that talked about -- about
8 providing places. If you don't want the four-wheel
9 drives to run up and down on the rivers, then provide
10 another place for them, because there's a lot of ATVs.
11 I don't know how many thousands somebody said was sold
12 every year. And there's a lot of people that own
13 four-wheel drives. Now, I don't own a four-wheel drive
14 Now, I don't own a four-wheel drive and I don't run up and down
the river. But I think
15 there should be a place for those people. And Parks and
16 Wildlife are acquiring lands regularly acquisitions of
17 lands. There was about three of them in the agenda this
18 morning. So that there's bound to be someplace for
19 these folks to go with their four-wheel-drive vehicles.
20 And most citizens don't know that public land has a
21 legal -- public citizens have a legal right to use these
22 river bed lands for recreation such as picnicking and
23 hiking and biking and whatever. It belongs to the state
24 and ought to be made available to the public and access
25 should be left open. I would like to ask the Parks and
94
1 Wildlife to stop trying to get the legislature to pass
2 more laws restricting the public from using the rivers,
3 beaches, or other public lands for recreation. Hunting
4 has already been outlawed in 18 counties in Texas. And
5 the list grows longer each year. It started with three
6 counties, and now it's 18. So anyway, bottom line is we
7 need to keep public land open to the public, period.
8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Raynice Shudde.
9 MS. SHUDDE: Madame Chairman, members of the
board. My name is Raynice Shudde.
10 I'm from Uvalde. I'm a third generation Nueces River
11 lover. My grandparents lived on the upper Nueces. My
12 dad and mother lived in Uvalde. There's been nothing
13 like the destruction for this length of time. The
14 stories I've heard were always walking the river,
15 fishing the river, enjoying the river. But we were
16 always taught great responsibility for the river. The
17 last few years, it's been extremely apparent that
18 someone must take a stand and protect this wonderful
19 resource we have.
20 I was noting the Texas river sign out in
21 the hall. I think each one of you would be embarrassed
22 - I sure would - to put up a Nueces River out there with the
ruts
23 and the destruction that is going on at this point. I
24 do agree. I think it would be wonderful to have some
25 places for these off-road vehicles, but certainly not in
95
1 the riverbeds. And I can't add any more than what or
2 David had said. It has nothing to do with access. It
3 has all to do with destruction. And as a third
4 generation river lover, I just -- I hope you-all will
5 look down the line at the next three generations of
6 Texans, the future Texans, that you represent will be
7 privileged and allowed to enjoy the natural beauty of
8 the river without the vehicles in it. Thank you very
9 much.
10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Heinz
11 Aeschbach and Margaret Aeschbach. Did I get that right?
12 MR. AESCHBACH: I want to mention two
13 things here shortly. Number one, about McKinney Falls
14 State Park. I would like to make another strong
15 statement I wrote to you-all. We talked here about it,
16 that the park should not be transferred. There are so
17 many reasons I'm not going to enumerate them now. It
18 just seems incredible that it is still in the final
19 draft.
20 But number two, looking at the document I
21 see looking at this I find it to be quite flawed. And
22 the draft, the final one, is not that much changed.
23 First we need to look at priorities. I think the
24 priorities are that there are state parks that are
25 accessible where people can experience nature, where they
96
1 can learn about nature. They can learn about history that
2 improve quality of life and improve mental health and improve
physical health.
3 The document shows 98 percent of Texans
4 feel it is important to have an opportunity to go to
5 state parks. You have the statistic 33 percent that go
6 to state parks. We have a discrepancy of 65 percent.
7 Two-thirds of the Texas population obviously wants more
8 access. Now, how do you get more access if you close
9 several good state parks that are right where the people
10 are? Then about assumptions. There are notions about
11 size. We want big state parks. Why? Nature is nature.
12 You don't need a lot of back (inaudible) we have to distinquish
13 between parks for quality of life and we have to
14 look at management and natural eco systems. That's not
15 the same. Then we look at the distinctions, also.
16 There is a big distinction between a national park or
17 state park alongside the nature is important. And your
18 county parks, you can't switch these two. (inaudible)
19
20 The city park and the state park is not the same. You cannot
switch McKinney Falls State Park or Kerrville
21 state park or Lockhart State Park to a city that is not that
function. These
22 are not baseball fields. These are not places for
23 people to go drinking and running their dogs, et cetera. I
24 wanted to just shortly talk about. In this document,
25 you have the distinction of 90 mile radius. I talked
97
1 about that before. It just doesn't make sense to look
2 at something arbitrarily and make a big document out of it.
3 MS. AESCHBACH: I'm Margaret Aeschbach.
4 And I've lived in Texas most of my life. State parks in
5 my estimation are special and unique. It's a shame that other
6 special and unique places like for example, Barton Creek
greenbelt were not
7 dedicated as state parks for conservation and
8 protection. I really appreciate the way the McKinney Falls
9 State Park has been maintained over the 20 -- last 26 years of
its
10 existence. And I appreciate the balance between
11 recreation and habitat.
12 The staff and volunteers do an excellent
13 job of interpreting the special features, and mostly
14 maintaining an overall atmosphere of order and respect.
15 The specialists of McKinney Falls State Park
16 is well documented. And I have here the little
17 document. It's about the Texas Historical Society
18 of one of the unsung heroes of the Texas Revolution, Thomas
McKinney
19 and this recent publication about the
20 geology of McKinney Falls State Park. It's good to be
21 mindful of the gift of the land donated by the Smith
22 family from McKinney Falls State Park and the Texas
23 Parks and Wildlife Headquarters where we are right now. This
bronze plaque in the lobby will have to be replaced if the
24 McKinney Falls State Park goes over to the city or
25 the LCRA. The plan to develop 5,000-acre parks within a
98
1 90-mile radius may look good on paper, but for a real
2 life park users those numbers are purely arbitrary. Why 5,000
3 acres? Do the planners black bear to the Texas hill
4 country? I recently visited the Davis Mountains. And
5 I couldn't -- one of the parks that's been expanded over
6 the 4th of July weekend. There was no one using the
7 primitive camping area. And the hike and bike -- the
8 mountain bike trail, no one there, as well. And
9 furthermore, it was so badly rutted from disuse and
10 erosion that it was only really possible for the most
11 experienced and best equipped bikers. I'm all in favor
12 of 5,000-acre nature preserves but let's not be diluted in
thinking that Texans
13 all want a back country experience. Texans need the
14 opportunity to reconnect with nature and their families.
15 State parks are not theme parks. Reading a book,
16 breaking a pinata, taking a flap are all immeasurably valuable
activities, .
17 but most importantly, let's not forget respecting, learning
about
18 nature as interpreted through guided walks, interpretive
19 trails, and displays like you can find at
20 McKinney Falls State Park. This plan sites Texas as
21 being the first in the state with the largest number of
22 bird species. And I'd wager to say that all of the ones
23 listed on page 36 of the plan can probably priority
24 bird species, which are declining, are probably
25 observable at McKinney Falls State Park. Thank you.
99
1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Kyle
2 McCain and Janice Bezanson. Please try to limit your
3 comments. I have to repeat this again to three minutes.
4 MR. MCCAIN: My name is Kyle McCain, I'm the city
5 manager with the City of Mejia. Confederate Reunion
6 Grounds were put on the low priority list. There was a
7 lot of worry that was raised in Mejia. The state park
8 there sits between the old to Fort Parker Restoration site and
9 Tort Parker. These are very near the Booker T.
10 Washington-Comanche crossing park. These parks all sit
11 within the 90-mile radius of the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex and
the park, Confederate Union Grounds specifically
12 represent a unique -- two unique parts or
13 distinct parts of Texas history. One is the post
14 reconstruction post civil war period where the
15 confederate reunions were held in that area. And one
16 of the things they built there was a little pavilion
17 which is a beautiful structure and used to this day for
18 weddings and other reunions. The other part of it is the oil
boom
19 in the 1920s, Mejia boomed 50 to 70,000
20 population. And that park was the source of water for
21 the oil boom. So there's two parks that are very
22 closely tied into history. The communities in our
23 area -- the city of Groesbeck, Limestone County, city of Mejia
put a lot of money into the
24 Old Fort Parker restoration . And we, in fact, the City
25 of Mejia puts a lot of money out of our hotel motel occupancy
tax to promote all three of these parks. In
100
1 fact, all four of the parks the Confederate Reunion Grounds,
Fort Parker,
2 -- the Old Fort Parker restoration site in trying to
3 develop historical tourism in our area. And we would
4 like not only to see that the Confederate Reunion Grounds
5 are protected as a state park, but my mayor has also
6 asked me to go one step beyond that and ask that y'all
7 consider hiking trails and campground facilities at the
8 Confederate Reunion Grounds. And that park sitting
9 between the other two parks actually would be part of
10 the link between hiking trails connecting all of three of these
11 areas.
12 Anyway, we would like primarily to make
13 sure that the Confederate Reunion Grounds does receive
14 consideration to stay on the list and would appreciate
15 your consideration in that area. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Janice
17 Bezanson. Is that correct? Oh, hi. Good to see you.
18 And Terry Colley.
19 MS. BEZANSON: Thank you, Madame
20 Chairman, members of the Commission. I'm Janice
21 Bezanson and I'm with the Texas Committee on Natural
22 Resources. We call it TCNR for the acronym. We're a
23 34-year old statewide conservation group and also the
24 affiliate -- state affiliate of the National Wildlife
25 Federation. My members follow Parks and Wildlife issues
101
1 very closely and sometimes they get a little exercised about it.
And we're up here
2 really hammering on you a little bit, but I always appreciate
the August comment
3 session because it gives me a chance to say thank you for all
the things that you're
4 doing right. And there are so very, very many of those.
5 Particularly of interest to my members are the resource
6 protection functions of Texas Parks and Wildlife. Water
7 quality regulations that protect fish and wildlife
8 resources and particularly any activity that avoids
9 destruction of wildlife habitat are of critical
10 importance to us.
11 One of the things we do every other year
12 to try to show our appreciation to the commission and the
department is we testify before the
13 legislature when it comes time for the Parks and
14 Wildlife budget to show up. And I think this year is
15 going to be one of the most critical years ever, because
16 we're in a situation where if we do not begin in
17 the state of Texas and really aggressively the land acquisition
18 program, we're going to end up without the wildlife
19 resources that we need in the future.
20 If you look at the water - at the Parks and
21 Wildlife Conservation Plan that is about to be adopted
22 has recently gone through the public hearing and you
23 calculate, you know, the projected growth in population
24 for the state of Texas and then you look at the
25 recommendations for land acquisition, you find that if we do
102
1 grow at that rate and if we buy everything that's
2 recommended in the plan, ten years from now, we are
3 going to have fewer acres of Parks and Wildlife land per
4 capita than we have today. That's going to be a
5 recreational problem, as well as a wildlife problem.
6 But almost more serious even than that is that
7 so many of the large pieces of land in the state of
8 Texas are being chopped up into smaller pieces when land goes on
the market many,
9 many times what it's being bought for is either
10 urbanization or being chopped up into smaller pieces.
11 And we need large pieces of land in order to provide breeding
and habitat for the
12 wildlife of Texas. So we're going to be at the
13 legislature supporting you and we hope you'll will be there
asking for some money for a lot
14 more land acquisition. Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Terry
16 Colley. And then Jay Kane.
17 MR. COLLEY: Chairman Armstrong. Members
18 of the Commission. I'm Terry Colley and the deputy executive
director of the Texas
19 Historical Commission. And I, like the lady that
20 preceded me, appreciate the time -- you went straight to
21 red, didn't you, Bob?
22 MR. COOK: I knew it was you, Terry. I
23 do that every once in a while. I'm watching you.
24 MR. COLLEY: Well, we,
25 too, appreciate the work that you do. And you've got a
103
1 lot of issues to deal with. You know the one that we're
2 most involved with is historic sites obviously and we know that
if there was an easy solution to this
3 it would have been done already. So we
4 appreciate you appointing the historic sites advisory
committee. We appreciate the
5 work of the staff, Bob and Walt and Bill and Cynthia and
6 Lydia. And we want to continue to work with you on it.
7 And I promised Bob that I'd quit shooting him in the
8 foot and try not to do my own foot, too, at the same,
9 too. So thank you very much.
10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you very much,
11 Terry. And I do want to compliment the Historical
12 Commission, your great leader, John Nau, and the staff
13 for all the cooperation you have shown. And we look
14 forward to working together. We've had a lot of
15 examples in this morning's meetings of interagency cooperation.
I don't want the
16 Historical Commission and Parks and Wildlife to be any
exception.
17 Thank you very much.
18 Jay Kane and Mary Tallent.
19 MS. KANE: Good afternoon, Madame
20 Chairman. Commissioners. I'm -- my name is Jay Kane.
21 I'm a biologist. My forte is native plants. And I'm a
22 board Native Prairie Association of Texas. I'm not here
23 to ask for money to put in my own pocket. Biologists
24 don't make any money anyway. Y'all know that. I'm not
25 here to ask for money for recreating in any shape or
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1 form, motorized or otherwise. But what I'm here to ask
2 for is that you-all look very closely at helping save,
3 through conservation easements, the last little remnants
4 of prairie that this state has. Gene asked me to talk
5 about the surveys that we did. Two years ago, we
6 started surveying to try to find out how much of native
7 prairies -- I'm talking about real prairie. I'm not
8 talking about recreated or reconstructed which I try to do, but
nobody does a
9 really good job of it. I mean - the Lord did it right the first
time and that's the way it is. And
10 we looked at the sites that David Riskind and David
11 Diamond surveyed 30 years ago when they were working
12 with Dr. Fred Smeins to figure out what the plant
13 community association in Texas was on these prairies. And we
found
14 that we've lost a third of the remnants in the last
15 thirty years. And what we did find some new ones, but
16 they're all small. So I know y'all are focused on big
17 acreage. And that is important. But what the germ
18 (inaudible) and genotypes and eco types that are left to use
19 to reconstruct these prairies in other areas are only left
20 in these little areas. And they're going to be gone
21 real soon. So we need more conservation easements to finish
surveying these areas so
22 that's what I'm asking money for. Thank you.
23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you very much.
24 A subject near and dear to my heart, as well, being the
25 co-chairman of the South Texas Native Plant Restoration.
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1 I applaud your effort.
2 Mary Tallent and Jack Love.
MR. COOK: Mary's gone.
3 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Jack Love and Diane Wassenich.
4 MR. LOVE: I'm Jack Love. I'm from Mico,
5 Texas. Everybody knows where Mico is. That's where the
6 dam was getting ready to break July 4th, two months
7 ago. I'm the fire chief. Let's just do this like a
8 wreck. I'll get through it real quick. I found out not
9 too long ago an open records is a very powerful tool.
10 Here is 175 pages I got from Medina County on the low
11 water bridge below Medina Lake dam that's fenced off
12 right now. The public is being denied access.
13 I have a packet I want to leave with
14 y'all. Hopefully, someone will look at it. Here -- if
15 I can go through my packet a little bit. Here's the
16 Texas Supreme Court Law, Diversion Lake versus Heath.
17 Okay? And it says, anywhere there's a navigable stream
18 and a public road crosses, the public has the right to
19 get in it. Okay? That is the bridge right below Medina
20 dam. Right now, it's fenced off. Okay. Of course,
21 those fences got torn down during the flood. Okay.
22 Everybody got equalized. And I have some pictures of
23 that. And, like this guy said right here, pictures are
24 worth a thousand words. And here's a picture here in
25 the Medina River. And it says, private property,
106
1 warning, unlawful entry could subject you to fine or
2 imprisonment, blah, blah, blah. It's sitting in state
3 water. That's what the Supreme Court of Texas said.
4 And the property owners have signs in there saying you
5 can't get here.
6 Now, here's the new bridge. They just
7 tore down the old bridge. They built a new bridge, but
8 the -- both the -- the approaches just got washed out.
9 There's no way for the public to launch a canoe anymore
10 in there, to get in it. But what I'm concerned with
11 is -- and it overlaps -- is fire protection. I no
12 longer can get water for my fire trucks. Neither can
13 any other fire department.
14 12 -- I've been fire chief for a long
15 time out there. I've drug in many a body, stopped
16 runaway boats, and done everything. And now I'm asking
17 y'all for help. 12 years ago, we had -- I'm sorry if
18 I'm using up the time. 12 years ago, we had ten fire
19 departments and 33 fire trucks out there looking for
20 water. Okay. We can no longer get to it. Okay.
21 And here's pictures of the fences. We
22 paid $956, people of state of Texas. Here's in 1915
23 where they petitioned Medina Commissioner's Court,
24 turned it into a 50-foot first class road. Okay? And
25 now the people have fenced it out. The people that
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1 fenced it -- we paid -- taxpayers paid for this sod, and
2 it's now seven foot behind their fence. I don't know
3 what else to do here.
4 I've got -- also there's the yellow
5 light -- okay. I've got four diskettes I got from Texas
6 Department of Transportation. I'm not going to leave
7 them with you. But if you want them, it's got pictures
8 of the bridge prior to construction, after construction.
9 And TxDOT did not get involved in any fences. And now
10 the fences are there. The public can't get in there.
11 And the Supreme Court said they were
12 granted a permanent injunction from ever erecting
13 fences. Okay. And they have done it. So there's the
14 law, and nobody is doing anything about it. Okay?
15 Thank y'all.
16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
17 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Madame Chairman. Parks and
Wildlife
18 doesn't have any authority, does it?
19 MR. LOVE: What do you mean, they don't
20 have any authority? They're telling people they can't
21 fish there.
22 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: What authority does
23 Parks and Wildlife have?
24 MR. COOK: Tim.
25 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Have you gone to
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1 TxDot?
2 MR. LOVE: Yes, I've been to TxDOT. I've
3 been -- TxDot is not involved in the fences. Like I
4 told you just a minute ago, they didn't get involved.
5 That was a handshake deal between Medina County and the
6 fence builder, $5,000. That's not in my open records
7 request of 175 pages here.
8 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Love -- the point is --
and
9 I believe Mr. Cook can say it -- can respond to that.
10 The Parks and Wildlife has no authority whatsoever to
11 enforce the no fencing laws.
12 MR. LOVE: Okay. Then why were they
13 telling -- why are they telling people they can't fish
14 in there?
15 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Well, now, that's a
16 different -- you're talking about a different subject.
17 MR. LOVE: Well, it kind of overlaps
18 when you say you can't go in there.
19 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Who is telling
20 people they can't fish there?
21 MR. LOVE: You've got Medina County
22 deputies and others. It's interesting that the
23 Medina County deputies are on the payroll of the people
24 with the fences.
25 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: But not Parks and
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1 Wildlife.
2 THE LOVE: Boy, I -- you can get in real
3 trouble talking here. You know what I mean?
4 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I don't -- I guess
5 I don't understand what your point is.
6 MR. LOVE: No. You ain't out there. But
7 I mean, it's just -- you've got fences there. They're
8 erected in the wrong spot.
9 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Sir, I recognize
10 you're frustrated and you've really got some serious
11 problems. But my point is that we -- there's nothing
12 this body can do about it.
13 MR. LOVE: Okay. But, I mean -- then we
14 can conclude there that someone can go in there and go
15 fishing?
16 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I -- is that
17 correct? I would presume so.
18 MR. LOVE: Since there is a Supreme Court
19 decision on that -- on that very bridge granting it.
20 I'm sorry if I bring -- you know, sometimes the truth
21 will not make you popular.
22 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Do you know -- is
23 that stream defined as a navigable stream?
24 MR. LOVE: Of course, it is. It's the
25 Medina River.
110
1 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: It is. Okay.
2 MR. LOVE: It's the virgin lake.
3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: The only other
4 issue -- who has placed those fences? Did the county
5 place the fence or the abutting landowners? Or do you
6 know?
7 MR. LOVE: Well, the county and the
8 abutting land owners -- a handshake deal, like the
9 Medina County Judge says, that's not going to be in the
10 request. That was a handshake deal between us and the
11 fence builder. And it just sits there. And people
12 drive by and it says, you know, private property. And
13 it's not private property.
14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Well, I think I
15 agree with Mr. Angelo, vice chairman, we don't have
16 jurisdiction over that. You ought to --
17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Have you been to the
18 commissioners court?
19 MR. LOVE: Oh, yes, I've been to
20 commissioners court. And they just -- I am frustrated.
21 And it's not that -- I can't get water for my fire
22 trucks anymore because of the new fences. That's my
23 only source of water, basically. Okay? And now we're
24 fenced out.
25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Why don't we review
111
1 the information you brought to us, and perhaps we can
2 get to you and -- with some information as to who the
3 jurisdiction -- who does hold jurisdiction.
4 MR. LOVE: Perfect.
5 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Okay.
6 MR. LOVE: I understand the incident
7 command system. You're IC. I'm IC. Let's do
8 something.
9 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
10 MS. WASSENICH: My name is Diane
11 Wassenich. I'm the executive director of the San Marcos
12 River Foundation. And I served on the Texas Parks and
13 Wildlife Rivers Conservation Advisory Board and the
14 four-by-four task force most recently. And I want to
15 thank you for the opportunity because it really widened
16 my experience and my understanding of the issues that
17 you face. I had no idea 17 years ago, when I started
18 working on water quality and water quantity issues, that
19 I would be spending so much time talking about the
20 four-by-four issue. But I did learn a lot and I do
21 encourage you to find ways for the four-by-four
22 community to have places using the gas tax funds.
23 I won't cover all that because so many
24 other people have covered it today. But I do have
25 brochures about the San Marcos River Foundation water
112
1 right application that I want to leave with you today.
2 And I would appreciate the opportunity to
3 answer any questions individually and meet with any of
4 you individually who would like to know more about it.
5 Basically, we applied for a water right because it
6 became very clear to us that your -- your study of 1998,
7 published in 1998, the huge study about the Guadalupe
8 Estuary, was shelved and was not being used by the
9 agency that does do water right granting.
10 In public meetings, we have been told
11 that, yes, they knew that study showed that a certain
12 amount of water was required to keep that bay alive.
13 But TNRCC could not figure out how to use that study.
14 And we came to the conclusion that if we didn't step up
15 and lay some money on the table and apply for the water
16 right, that there was going to be no water left to
17 discuss about how much to leave for the bays and
18 estuaries. And so that's why we applied.
19 This has been going on for about two and
20 a half years. We hope to have a draft permit very soon.
21 And it's going to come down to whether or not your
22 study, Texas Parks and Wildlife's study, is a respected
23 and true representation of how much water is needed by
24 the Guadalupe Estuary.
25 There is a lot of people who are going to
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1 be opposed to using that study. But I encourage you to
2 encourage your staff to defend that study. It's an
3 important precedent-setting one. And it is key to
4 whether the Guadalupe Estuary will survive or not.
5 Thank you for all y'all are doing on the land and water
6 plan. We've read. We've commented on it. There's some
7 great stuff about water in there. It's going to be up
8 to you, as the agency that does protect the resources of
9 the state, to make sure that our rivers and our bays and
10 estuaries survive. I'm afraid no one else is going to
11 do it.
12 So I thank you for the energy you've put
13 into it, the time and the money. And thank you for what
14 you're going to be doing in the coming year. Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. That
16 concludes the public comment. I do need to acknowledge,
17 for the record, the letter from Dana Larson regarding
18 the causeway rubble creating the world's biggest and
19 best artificial reef.
20 Mr. Cook, is there any other business to
21 come before this commission today?
22 MR. COOK: No, ma'am.
23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I declare ourselves
24 adjourned. Thank you, very much.
25
(ADJOURNED)
___________________________________
Katharine Armstrong, Chairman
___________________________________
Ernest Angelo, Jr., Vice Chairman
___________________________________
John Avila, Jr., Member
__________________________________
Joseph B. C. Fitzsimons, Member
__________________________________
Alvin L. Henry, Member
__________________________________
Philip Montgomery, III, Member
_________________________________
Donato D. Ramos, Member
__________________________________
Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Member
__________________________________
Mark E. Watson, Jr., Member