Salford as you mention, they have a mountain to climb. a new stadium can only be a springboard.

Yes it is true that they have a mountain to climb to up the attendances.

I know that it's also not just the ground that is keeping them away as Wellsy says.

But I can remember when Salford were one of the best supported clubs.

I know they may have some way to go to ever recapture old glories.

But put it in the correct context. If there were 20 clubs with 10,000 crowds queuing up for Superleague then maybe we can all laugh at Salford???

But here's a club who ARE actually building the ground now, and seem to be boosting their signings for next year and have promised full cap, and do have backers with money.

So why are good RL people being so snipey about Salford???

Wakefield and Salford have the potential to add to the small number of big clubs we have and I for one will remain positive about the pair, wish them all the very best and hope they really go places. The sacrifices made selling up Belle Vue after all these years, and what Wilko has put in deserve full support from the RL fraternity?

Yes it is true that they have a mountain to climb to up the attendances.

I know that it's also not just the ground that is keeping them away as Wellsy says.

But I can remember when Salford were one of the best supported clubs.

I know they may have some way to go to ever recapture old glories.

But put it in the correct context. If there were 20 clubs with 10,000 crowds queuing up for Superleague then maybe we can all laugh at Salford???

But here's a club who ARE actually building the ground now, and seem to be boosting their signings for next year and have promised full cap, and do have backers with money.

So why are good RL people being so snipey about Salford???

Wakefield and Salford have the potential to add to the small number of big clubs we have and I for one will remain positive about the pair, wish them all the very best and hope they really go places. The sacrifices made selling up Belle Vue after all these years, and what Wilko has put in deserve full support from the RL fraternity?

Don't get me wrong, Wakefield will/may have a similar mountain. Castleford less so. Bradford, who knows. Saints won't double crowds in their new stadium, they won't even see a 50% increase, unless they go on a massive marketing campaign, which they won't.

Salford seem to be playing the game, they know they are immune fro now from relegation, concentrate on the stadium. Next year they need to build some momentum, they seem to have now gone into the market fotr players to make them be more competitive. Going from bottom-ish to top eight is seen as a big leep. They then hope to take tha momentum into the new stadium. They ain't wasting their time competing now, its bad business.

Widnes are playing the same game, they went straight for the ticks for a trophy, with that in the bag they have gone straight for youth development which they are doing well at. They haven't bleated about anything as a club, they arer just getting on with what needs to be done.

The smart clubs are playing to the rules and the dumb clubs are whinging.

You well know I am not referring to the fans - there is never any trouble INSIDE the ground - I am talking about the oiks who dominate the neighbourhood outside the ground. Don't twist things your way to suit your argument.

You spoke of 'the urchins in Weaste' without differentiating or suggesting that there are any other type of people in Weaste. Maybe you need to be a bit clearer in future.

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Wire and Hull had been growing their crowds for some time - not so with Wire - I stood many a time at Wilderspool before they moved and 3,500 was common.

Unfortunately for you when you are dealing with facts, lies can be easily disproven. The Wire didn't get a crowd of 3,500 in their last 5 seasons at Wilderspool. Also if you look at their averages of the last few years you can see the upward trend culminating in their biggest SL average in the year before they moved to the HJ,

You see no trend whatsoever and no change in a decade of trying despite the overall SL average increasing considerably.

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In comparison you have no momentum. - Well I will answer that NEXT season as the Chairman has basically decided to have a crack with some fine signings and I would be surprised if we dont see a 50% rise in 2011.

Who mentioned Widnes, we're talking about the clubs likely to go down? We need far less momentum than you do as we always got a good 50% more than you in Super League and will again.

I'd be very very surprised to see a 50% rise next year. If you'd be surprised if they don't, maybe you fancy placing a £50 wager with the proceeds going to XIII heroes?

Don't get me wrong, Wakefield will/may have a similar mountain. Castleford less so. Bradford, who knows. Saints won't double crowds in their new stadium, they won't even see a 50% increase, unless they go on a massive marketing campaign, which they won't.

Salford seem to be playing the game, they know they are immune fro now from relegation, concentrate on the stadium. Next year they need to build some momentum, they seem to have now gone into the market fotr players to make them be more competitive. Going from bottom-ish to top eight is seen as a big leep. They then hope to take tha momentum into the new stadium. They ain't wasting their time competing now, its bad business.

Widnes are playing the same game, they went straight for the ticks for a trophy, with that in the bag they have gone straight for youth development which they are doing well at. They haven't bleated about anything as a club, they arer just getting on with what needs to be done.

The smart clubs are playing to the rules and the dumb clubs are whinging.

Don't get me wrong, Wakefield will/may have a similar mountain. Castleford less so. Bradford, who knows. Saints won't double crowds in their new stadium, they won't even see a 50% increase, unless they go on a massive marketing campaign, which they won't.

Salford seem to be playing the game, they know they are immune fro now from relegation, concentrate on the stadium. Next year they need to build some momentum, they seem to have now gone into the market fotr players to make them be more competitive. Going from bottom-ish to top eight is seen as a big leep. They then hope to take tha momentum into the new stadium. They ain't wasting their time competing now, its bad business.

Widnes are playing the same game, they went straight for the ticks for a trophy, with that in the bag they have gone straight for youth development which they are doing well at. They haven't bleated about anything as a club, they arer just getting on with what needs to be done.

The smart clubs are playing to the rules and the dumb clubs are whinging.

That sounds remarkably similar to something I posted about 4 pages ago.

Don't get me wrong, Wakefield will/may have a similar mountain. Castleford less so. Bradford, who knows. Saints won't double crowds in their new stadium, they won't even see a 50% increase, unless they go on a massive marketing campaign, which they won't.

Salford seem to be playing the game, they know they are immune fro now from relegation, concentrate on the stadium. Next year they need to build some momentum, they seem to have now gone into the market fotr players to make them be more competitive. Going from bottom-ish to top eight is seen as a big leep. They then hope to take tha momentum into the new stadium. They ain't wasting their time competing now, its bad business.

Widnes are playing the same game, they went straight for the ticks for a trophy, with that in the bag they have gone straight for youth development which they are doing well at. They haven't bleated about anything as a club, they arer just getting on with what needs to be done.

The smart clubs are playing to the rules and the dumb clubs are whinging.

Whilst the salford crowd bashing and team bashing seem to be the focus at the moment, the real question as regards Salford lies elsewhere.

I have every respect for a grand old club actually trying to better their team with recent signings and actually start to build the ground - something that conveniently whistles over people's head, with someone actually sugesting the groundworkers are not actually construction workers!

No need to bash the club on either of these points - they are taking action.

The creation of a home grown player structure would seem to be the problem. RL seems to have died off somewhat in Manchester/Salford and the ideal is that in the future like London (if they have a future) can now boast Londoners playing the game, will Salford ever be able to boast a supply of salfordians/mancunians?

I'd like to hear more about their junior development plans and what is the state of schools and junor RL in their area (rather than more attendance bashing).

It would not be too good for the game if we end up with five SL clubs all linked by local roads all spending full cap and competing for too small a pool of juniors.

Warrington were mentioned in regards to a club moving to a new ground and having an upturn in attendances. The big advantage Warrington have is that the HJ is as close to the town centre as it could've been. It's an easy ground to reach for local people, especially for those who don't have, or don't wish to use the car. For away fans Central station is 30 seconds down the road.

I'm no expert on the geography of Salford. but whenever the new site at Barton is mentioned, the closeness to the M60 is always spoken about. Is the new ground easily accessible without a car?

Warrington were mentioned in regards to a club moving to a new ground and having an upturn in attendances. The big advantage Warrington have is that the HJ is as close to the town centre as it could've been. It's an easy ground to reach for local people, especially for those who don't have, or don't wish to use the car. For away fans Central station is 30 seconds down the road.

I'm no expert on the geography of Salford. but whenever the new site at Barton is mentioned, the closeness to the M60 is always spoken about. Is the new ground easily accessible without a car?

I have some experience of this and it's not particularly easy.

The nearest train station is Urmston, probably a mile and a half from recollection. There are buses from the city centre, not as regular as you'd think and quite expensive.

Warrington were mentioned in regards to a club moving to a new ground and having an upturn in attendances. The big advantage Warrington have is that the HJ is as close to the town centre as it could've been. It's an easy ground to reach for local people, especially for those who don't have, or don't wish to use the car. For away fans Central station is 30 seconds down the road.

I'm no expert on the geography of Salford. but whenever the new site at Barton is mentioned, the closeness to the M60 is always spoken about. Is the new ground easily accessible without a car?

as accessible , I believe as the Trafford Centre, which get crowds even bigger than Leeds. I think the Salford and Warrington cases are different. I think that Salford has fans who were originally within walking distance of the Willows but have moved away owing to housing redevelopment and related issues. I'd expect them to find the new location to be OK.

I also think that a new ground in a more amenable location will attract new spectators from surrounding areas. I suspect also that away fans are more likely to attend games ( Saints, Wigan, Warrington, etc) as the new location is easier to get to and again, more amenable.

as accessible , I believe as the Trafford Centre, which get crowds even bigger than Leeds. I think the Salford and Warrington cases are different. I think that Salford has fans who were originally within walking distance of the Willows but have moved away owing to housing redevelopment and related issues. I'd expect them to find the new location to be OK.

I also think that a new ground in a more amenable location will attract new spectators from surrounding areas. I suspect also that away fans are more likely to attend games ( Saints, Wigan, Warrington, etc) as the new location is easier to get to and again, more amenable.

For those travelling by car it will be infinitely better. It is doable by public transport but not ideal, before I drove I had to go once and it was quite a trek.

The key is of course going to be fans from Salford and Manchester. They are moving 3/4 miles down the road with will exclude the fans which would usually walk to games. The important thing to note is that a stadium alone is not the answer and Salford need to realise this. They have shown very little else to suggest that they could make the most of it. Wakefield, Cas, Wire and Hull all tried to make the most of their poor surroundings and managed to improve before they moved elsewhere or planned to. Salford haven't.

We work with Buckingham's quite a bit and I've heard people at work mentioning the Salford stadium a few times, if anything more substantial comes to light I will inform.

People often get criticised for suggesting that Salford's stadium might not happen.

The fact is that the vast majority, myself included, have no idea how the process works. What we have seen and heard though are countless releases about the stadiums and numerous reassurances from fans about how certain their stadiums are to be built. However 10 years on in some instances the stadiums have still not started.

Salford's stadium could be 100% nailed on certain to be built by 2012, I honestly don't know. When I've read the recent statements it seems that they are. However I've thought this before, at the last round of licensing for instance. All the arguments we're hearing now we heard in 2008 and the reality is they won't have delivered on those promises.

Therefore if there are any delays meaning that the stadium will not be ready for the start of the 2012 stadium then they should definitely be dropped. Without it they are by far the weakest of the 3 main contenders to go down.

Saints core support is about 9,000, their new stadium will have a capacity that is only about 500 higher than their current dump. So the only two games they sell-out Wigan and Warrington can only go up by 500.

Without those two games the Saints average drops to about 9,700 and that is the figure that they will need to increase to get to 15,000, take out the fact that two games can't increase (not by much anyway) and that percentage increase needed get bigger.

The only thing Saints have going for them is that Widnes may replace Wakefield which will give them one game which will see a big increase.

The core Saints support will have to increase considerably to get anywhere near a 15k figure.

Saints core support is about 9,000, their new stadium will have a capacity that is only about 500 higher than their current dump. So the only two games they sell-out Wigan and Warrington can only go up by 500.

Without those two games the Saints average drops to about 9,700 and that is the figure that they will need to increase to get to 15,000, take out the fact that two games can't increase (not by much anyway) and that percentage increase needed get bigger.

The only thing Saints have going for them is that Widnes may replace Wakefield which will give them one game which will see a big increase.

The core Saints support will have to increase considerably to get anywhere near a 15k figure.

You're talking out of your ozzie @rze

I think the novelty factor will give it an immediate boost, plus I think more away fans will make the trip. I know I'd be more likely to go to the shiny box than Knowsley Road.

I think the novelty factor will give it an immediate boost, plus I think more away fans will make the trip. I know I'd be more likely to go to the shiny box than Knowsley Road.

The problem is, to get to 15k average you will likely need a hell of a lot of additional away support. I think the new ground will certainly boost the average, as locals take more of an interest, but expecting an extra 1k or something on the away support is a real stretch, even with the curiosity factor.

I can see a solid 2k - 3k increase, but getting to 15k seems very ambitious.

But that's slightly beside the point; I think with the additional finances St. Helens will likely have due to increased support (including corporate?) and not throwing money into keeping Knowsley Road open, they could really go to town with the future marketing and produce a steady increase in crowds over time.