Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - January 2003

Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken
at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer.

The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored
by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.

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Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 23:37:50 -0500
From: A.J. Bashore II <noizmkr _at_ dcweblink.net>
Subject: [HG] Testing My Isp Mail
Folks,
I don't know how many of you will get this message. When I send out,
some of the messages don't get to you all. I get a delivery failure
message.
Those of you who do get this, how about if you reply, so I know that I
get some mail coming in.
Thanks and sorry for the non-list specific message.
In Harmony,
A.J. Bashore II
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Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 21:59:21 -0700
From: bbc0 <bbc0 _at_ telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Testing My Isp Mail
Happy New Year AJ
Barry
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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:50:06 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Testing My Isp Mail
A.J.,
I sent you a message confirming that I received your post, but that
bounced back to me. Sorry.
Jake Conte
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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 10:51:42 +0100
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] Testing My Isp Mail
Wo ist das Problem, ich krieg lauter solche Dinger??
Viele Grüße und Gutes Neues Jahr
Helmut Gotschy
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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 14:36:07 EST
From: MLigett _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: noplisno Re: [HG] Testing My Isp Mail
I am new to this HG list and while I do not quite understand all the "ISP
Mail stuff" coming to my mailbox, I also don't understand why folks get
so upset and impatient with other folks?!?!?
The most well used key on my keyboard is the delete key!
Peace!
Brother Mark
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Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 10:18:53 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Administrivia: reply-to address, etc
Dear List,
>You see, the problem is that many can't. Every mail you receive from
>this list contains a header line which says:
>
>Reply-to: hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com
I set it up this way intentionally, because I believe that in most
situations people want to reply to the list.
Alden
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Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:12:33 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] New subject: a new HG design
OK, I think we all know the situation with regards to AJ's email. Time to
move on.
A few months ago I had a brainstorm for a new HG design that perfectly
mixes the interests of at least one Italian HG player, namely HG and
cycling (as in bicycle). It's double-keyboard HG, with two sets of
strings. Instead of a hand crank, the wheel is turned by an extra chain
attached to the sprocket of the bicycle pedals. The keyboards are to the
left and right of the wheel, each with their own set of strings. The left
keyboard would be as normal, the right would be reversed.
And as for the dog... well, a certain amount of emphasis in pedaling would
probably do the trick.
The only real problem is where to mount the brake handles so they don't
interfere with the keyboxes. ;-)
Alden
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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:33:33 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] New subject: a new HG design
Clearly, Alden, you have far too much time.
Perhaps you have a hurdy gurdy project you could be
working on?
judith
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Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:18:38 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] New subject: a new HG design
Judith -
>Clearly, Alden, you have far too much time.
>
>Perhaps you have a hurdy gurdy project you could be
>working on?
Oh, this is what I think about as I'm sanding, planing, sawing, sanding,
driving to the wood store, sanding... ;-)
(Did I mention sanding?)
Alden
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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:40:54 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: [HG] New subject: a new HG design: names?
So, Alden, have you come up with a name for it? Maybe something, like
"Vélo a roue"
maybe that's too straightforward...
or more Baroque:
"Orphéon Lunatique a pédales?
Or perhaps
"Archi-vélo for the commuter"
(the above all with due apologies to the author(s) of the Encyclopedie...
and to real speakers of bonafide French)
warm fuzzies to all from Indiana,
Vlad
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wolodymyr Joseph Smishkewych
Departmental Administrative Assistant
Department of Voice
Indiana University School of Music
Merrill Hall 105
Bloomington, IN 47401
Tel: +1 (812) 855 2057
Fax: +1 (812) 855 4936
voicedep _at_ indiana.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:34:04 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] New subject: a new HG design
> The only real problem is where to mount the brake handles so they don't
> interfere with the keyboxes. ;-)
I think some people out there would see the brake handles interfering with
the keyboxes as the best feature ;-)
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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:08:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
There's a copy of the Palmer book on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=936046788
It's a bit overpriced: the minimum bid is $40, and the direct buy price is
$135, which is WAY more than it's worth.
I'm a little embarrassed to say how much I paid for our copy, but it was
somewhere close to the $40 minimum bid. Just for interest, for those of
you who have copies, how much did you pay? I know that someone found one
at a library sale, for a song... (grumph).
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 14:29:17 -0800
From: Rachael Kenoyer <miz_rubylou _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
Alden Hackmann wrote:
>There's a copy of the Palmer book on eBay:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=936046788
>Just for interest, for those of
>you who have copies, how much did you pay? I know that someone found one
>at a library sale, for a song... (grumph).
I picked mine up for a song---I think I paid eight dollars for it, but my
memory is not certain. I know it wasn't more than ten.
As an aside to Alden: what brand of "light bearing oil" do you use on your
wheel bearings? My gurdy's developed a rhythmic squeak. :-)
~~Rachael
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Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:28:07 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
At 02:08 PM 1/7/03 -0800, you wrote:
>There's a copy of the Palmer book on eBay:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=936046788
>
>It's a bit overpriced: the minimum bid is $40, and the direct buy price is
>$135, which is WAY more than it's worth.
>
>I'm a little embarrassed to say how much I paid for our copy, but it was
>somewhere close to the $40 minimum bid. Just for interest, for those of
>you who have copies, how much did you pay? I know that someone found one
>at a library sale, for a song... (grumph).
Guilty as charged. But, I'm not the only one! Keep your eyes open; good
books which don't get checked out much (and I bet this one qualifies!) are
flying off the shelves to make way for new ones...
~ Matt
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
7 Grove Street
Camden, Maine 04843
phone: 207-236-9576
email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com
website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:13:49 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
I bought my first copy in 1984 for $40 and it took 2 month to get it. The
regular book price was 15 British Pounds. I read it over about 3 times. The
information was just amazing. This was just after I re-started playing HG as
an adult.
I then went to England in 1989 and found then on the "Remainder" pile of
books at Foyels in London and bought all they had, about 20 copies for $5
each. I found 4 copies at Down home Music in 1989 and bought them for $20
each. I have given away or sold all of these except the copies I keep for
myself.
They are not easy to find for sale. Considering inflation $40 today is
cheaper than it was in 1984.
I agree that $135 is too much, but I am sure that it well worth investing in
a copy for a reasonable price due to the books extraordinary content and
value to the serious HG player.
r.t.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:05:29 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
I bought my copy in early '80 (?) for something like
10-15 British Pounds. I was in London and I got my
copy by Samuel Palmer (co-author).
In my opinion $135 is definitely too much for any kind
of book....
=====
Marcello Bono
Bologna-Italy
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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:23:06 +0100
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
Hi together,
I bought mine in the early eighties in Berlin in a music store (Bote and
Bock) for 78,00 DM which is around 40,00 USD.
With the price of 135,00 USD, I mean things are worth for someone what he is
willing to pay for it.
How much did poeple pay for a little stone from the moon???
Greetings
Helmut
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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:53:33 +0000
From: Dave Holland <dave _at_ biff.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 02:08:14PM -0800, Alden Hackmann wrote:
> I'm a little embarrassed to say how much I paid for our copy, but it was
> somewhere close to the $40 minimum bid. Just for interest, for those of
> you who have copies, how much did you pay?
I think I paid about UKP30 for my copy. That was 2-3 years ago, from a
second-hand book seller on the web.
Dave
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 01:05:30 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: [HG] Palmer Book
So this book sounds like a good reference. I'm on Maui where such
things are mostly impossible to find.
Who wants to sell me one for less than $50?
Thanks-
Don
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:55:52 -0700
From: bbc0 <bbc0 _at_ telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Palmer Book
Don,
Living on Maui means that you have already had way to much good luck! You
may have to pay full price for anything else.
BB
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:37:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] New subject: a new HG design
--- Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> wrote:
> Oh, this is what I think about as I'm sanding, planing, sawing,
> sanding,
> driving to the wood store, sanding... ;-)
>
> (Did I mention sanding?)
If yew hadn't I wood have. Whoever came up with "Idle hands are the
Devil's Tools" didn't know much about hand tools. "An idle mind is the
Devil's workshop" is much more accurate and was probably observed by
someone that knew quite a bit about hand tools.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:27:14 -0000
From: bourgogne _at_ bourgogne.free-online.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
I bought my copy in 1992 for £15 ($22) with some luck. Finding the book was
out of print I used one of the Booksearch companies who unearthed a copy for
£75. I wrote back to them that we were not on the same wavelength.
I then spent all afternoon telephoning lead after lead and eventually found
one shop that had their last copy which they said would be the cover price.
I have not seen a single copy for sale since then. So $40 seems reasonable.
Saying that I just did a quick search on bookfinder.com and there is a copy
available to purchase for £78 ($125) from Caliver Books in London. This
should be the link:
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetails?bi=136604082
Steve
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:35:06 EST
From: MLigett _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
The copy at Caliver books in London has been sold. It sold for US
$125.00. Just heard from the folks there last night!
Brother Mark
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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:40:38 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
Has anyone contacted the copyright owner ever to see if they would allow
copies to be made in exchange for a per-copy fee to them? I know that music
publishers often allow this. If people are getting so much for copies I
would say that the demand is much higher than the supply available at a
reasonable price, so making legal copies might be a good way to get more
copies out there at a reasonable price.
-Arle
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:14:50 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay now a BIDDING WAR AT EBAY!
Well it looks like it would have been a lot better to make investments in
buying this book than in the stock market. It is just like buying a Hurdy
Gurdy from a good maker.
You might also think of all of those CD's that you did not buy when they
first came out. Many CD's at AMPTA that are even from some of the big groups
are no longer being sold by them.
When they are gone, they are gone.
BIDDING WAR AT EBAY !
By the way the current biding war between Alice4447 and Jakey-jake has
pushed the price up to $61.00
It looks like quite a bargain compared to the other current prices that
people have been paying.
r.t.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:42:04 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay now a BIDDING WAR AT EBAY!
Oh I see it now (having somehow not received the original post of
this thread). Trying to follow the action, I was searching (and not
finding) in eBay _books_ rather than _antique_instruments_. Silly me.
And I thought it was just a book.
JR.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:29:13 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay now a BIDDING WAR AT EBAY!
In a message dated 1/9/03 3:15:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net writes:
By the way the current biding war between Alice4447 and
Jakey-jake has
pushed the price up to $61.00
Jakey Jake is me and I was willing to bid up to $60 and was notified that
I was outbid. I may wait a few more days and see how it unfolds. I may
give it another shot if it doesn't go much further, but I can't see
paying over $100 for a book....... any book.
Jake Conte
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:29:43 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Lending Library????
Now here is an idea, in the spirit of Ben Franklin another musician and
inventor of the Glass Harmonica.....
Well good old Ben started the first lending Library in America. Maybe we
can do the same for us HG players.
I would be happy to lend out some of my books to other players with just
the cost of postage both ways, and a gaurantee of a reasonable return
date.
I know that I would like to have another look at the Brookner book but I
can only read it at the Library, I can not take it home to read
complettly or whenever I want to. and it is a 4 hour round trip for me.
If anyone is interested in also joining in by volunteering to lend some
of their precious books, post a mesage on the list.
If anyone is interested in borrowing my Palmer book, send me email off
the list.
r.t.
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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:10:11 -1000
From: W. Jason Naylor <pan _at_ dreamerdesign.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Lending Library????
Now that is just plain brilliant, very much in old Ben's spirit.
Are you thinking of a distributed collection, or will someone house the
texts and get to slaver over them when they are not on loan? Also, what
do people think about a similar idea for music? It could be done with
postage or even electronically. I haven't any texts yet, but I do
have a few nice CDs (probably nothing new to the serious heads here
assembled, but tasty tracks none the less). When sharing music of this
quality and rarity I assume most would agree that the data should not be
allowed to leak into the public domain, a it were, over the peer-to-peer
networks, but I think a reasonable case could be made for fair use
between eccentric aficionados. What do you say?
Jason ‘the lurker' Naylor
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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 17:35:37 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
We once explored with the publishers (David and David) about getting the
book reprinted, perhaps by a university press here in the US. They were OK
with it, but we also needed the permission of the author. At first she
seemed amenable, but it never worked out. We also talked to a university
press in the Midwest about reprinting. Again, initial reaction was good,
but the plan fizzled. We were told that "an authority in the field" had
told the press that the book was full of errors and wasn't worth their
effort. ;-(
Our contact with Susann Palmer was probably at least 7 years ago. Has
anyone heard from her or news of her since then?
Alden
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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 17:46:43 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Lending Library????
RT -
>I know that I would like to have another look at the Brookner book but I
>can only read it at the Library, I can not take it home to read complettly
>or whenever I want to. and it is a 4 hour round trip for me.
There's an English translation of Bröcker on the way, and we have
permission from the author to put it on the web for all to see, complete
with pictures, graphs, musical examples, etc. The project got a little
stalled here somehow. If anyone out there has an interest in helping,
please let me know offlist.
Alden
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:29:55 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Lending Library????
Just thought I should point out the problems Franklin and Co. originally
discovered with the lending library concept. The books degenerated speedily
and sometimes disappeared. And since they were from private collections, the
private owners were miffed. It then became obvious that the books in question
should be funded out of a common fund, and belong to no one and everyone;
that is, to the library. That way, no one lost anything from his own library.
Puppeteers of America got that straight with their video library-- they pay
for the films out of their funds, or they are donated by members forever, and
so if something happens to the films, nobody is personally affected.
Alice
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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:11:16 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
--- Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
wrote: >
> We were told that "an
> authority in the field" had
> told the press that the book was full of errors and
> wasn't worth their
> effort. ;-(
I'd like to know who's the "authority"...there are
some little errors here and there and the references
about music and museums are by far out of date, but if
you really want to read a lot of bullshits (sorry...)
about hurdy-gurdy you should read some italian books
about traditional musical instruments....I did a
lecture about this subject and it was one of my best
and funniest performance!
=====
Marcello Bono
Bologna-Italy
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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:08:38 +0100
From: René Meeuws <meeuws _at_ msmp.demon.nl>
Subject: Re: [HG] Schubert's "Der Leiermann"
Schuberts "Leiermann" was a topic in the list several months ago. At that
time I couldn't read everthing. So I kept some interesting messages for more
quiet times.
Reading them now, I want to react, not because I fully agree with Simon
(almost two years ago I already wrote a message about this subject in the
list), but because there is another reason for his thesis. Schubert himself
wrote another song about the hurdy-gurdy: "An die Leier". In this song the
text speaks about the "Saiten" of the instrument: the strings! A barrel
organ definitely has no strings!
I think it's the ignorance of musical directors that makes that we mostly
see an organ in translations or in visualisations of "Der Leiermann". And
don't forget the makers of line notes for cd's: they are the laziest of all;
they just copy eachother's faults!
BTW: Berlioz's "La Damnation de Faust" gives the same problem. In the text
wefind a "vielle à roue", in translations en on stage we see an organ.
René Meeuws, Nijmegen (NL)
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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:9:7 -0800
From: Joanne Andrus <joaand _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] Lending Library????
I know that I would like to have another look at the Brookner
book but I can only read it at the Library, I can not take it
home to read complettly or whenever I want to. and it is a 4
hour round trip for me.
Have you tried Inter Library Loan? I was able to get a copy ahold
of the Brocker book(s) pretty easily that way. Go to your local
library and fill out the request form. It usually takes a week or
so, but the library searches all over the country for a library
willing to mail out the book requested. You don't usually get to
keep it very long, but they can find all sorts of interesting books
for you. Good luck.
Joanne
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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:47:15 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
Marcello said:
>I'd like to know who's the "authority"...there are
>some little errors here and there and the references
>about music and museums are by far out of date,
We don't really know for certain who it was. There are, after all, only so
many "authorities" in the field, especially in North America. ;-)
Alden
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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:01:51 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Oiling the shaft
Rachael mentioned a squeak and asked about oil. Here's my "authoritative"
reply ;-)
First, determine that it's really one of the shaft bearings that's
producing the squeak. It's possible to go to a lot of effort to fix a
shaft sound, only to find that it's the handle that's making the
noise. It's easiest if you simply switch cranks with someone for a moment,
but if this isn't possible, try removing the crank and rotating the handle
when it's removed from the instrument. If it makes the squeak, great -
now you know it's the handle and not the shaft. If it doesn't, it could
still be either, as handles sometimes only squeak when being played. Turn
the crank and note when the sound occurs (with the handle up, down,
forward, whatever). Stop turning the wheel. Rotate the handle on its
shaft a half turn. Turn the crank again. If the noise happens at a
different position than before, it's also a handle noise.
Assuming that it's the shaft bearing that is making the noise - the first
step is to oil it. We use a light-weight bearing oil which we got at
Webster's Hobby on Aurora Avenue in Seattle. It comes in a small bottle
with a needle-like tip for applying it far down inside of places. A
sewing-machine oil should also work well. As noted in the owner's manual -
do NOT use household 3-in-1 oil! While it does have lubricating
properties, it's actually mostly a vegetable oil, and it will dry up and
become gummy.
When applying a small (did we mention small?) amount of oil, like a drop or
two, to the tail bearing, hold the instrument head down and dribble a
little (did we mention "not very much"?) into the bearing where the shaft
comes out of the body. Turn the crank several times to distribute the oil
and help it move downwards, toward the head. With luck, this will solve
the problem. If not, call or email.
Alden
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Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 01:13:59 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
In a message dated 1/9/03 8:34:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hurdy _at_ silverlink.net writes:
We were told that "an authority in the field" had
told the press that the book was full of errors and wasn't
worth their
effort. ;-(
It's surprising you didn't inquire who the unnamed authority was and if,
in fact, they were "an authority." I would think that the main purpose
of a publisher in publishing a book is that there exists a market for the
product, not the amount of errors contained therein.
Does the book contain information that is not readily available on the
internet?
Jake Conte
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:54:39 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] video on the web from St. Chartier 2002
http://www.mondomix.org/mix_fr/decouv/festivals/stchartier2002/ram/paradecornem
ses.ram
The St. Chartier web site has a like that gets you to this interesting
procession of people led by a Hurdy Gurdy player but for some reason he
is playing a bagpipe instead.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:17:40 -0500
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ cogeco.ca>
Subject: RE: [HG] Lending Library????
Perhaps this has already been done and is archived, but I was
wondering if someone could provide a good bibliography, perhaps with
the real must-see books highlighted.
Cheers Alison
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Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:31:25 +0200
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: [HG] OT: ideas about music publishing
Hello there and happy new year!
I've been thinking a lot about this subject:
-there are marginal genres of music, certainly thousands of them in
the world.
-Our genre, music of hurdy-gurdy, is one of them. Some 10 -20 000
people globally, or what?
-Some hundreds of them have certainly had some dreams or thoughts
about publishing their music to others, quite many have also done it,
published a cd or two...
-Then comes the distribution problem: it is a hard work to get people
to know that there even is such as recording, no matter is it the
musician him/herself that is doing the job or some company like
Naxos or smaller national or regional distributors.
We, as a "tribe" need also something else than just those cds. Or what?
Many other small genres are using the internet for distributing their music.
Making decent home-recordings has also become easier and easier,
here's one example:
http://www.tascam.com/products/pocketstudio/pocketstudio5/index.php
And from that pocket (a big pocket, though) you can expand your home
studio to infinity (meaning price...)
(The most interestinig special feature in this pocketstudio is the
co-operation feature: send the file to a friend and he/she plays own
parts to it and sends it back to you.)
So: If we once upon a time had a hurdy-gurdy -music archive(s) with
all kinds off stuff we would all be able to listen to our own music.
Listen to it more than now and in new ways: home recordings, archive
recordings, rare vinyls, workshop tapes, concerts etc. (Legally,
copyrighted, maybe mostly free).
This/these archive(s) could of course cover pro or amateur videos and
maybe even photo-collections.
And this was about developing something else beside the cds. And then
there is the question about live performances. Hands up, those of
you, who feel that you have heard just enough hurdy-gurdy music in
concert, or had enough opportunities to play in concerts...
We have the digital videocams or webcams and the internet, so why not
try that too? Live or recorded.
But I leave this here now, please comment on or off the list if you
have any further ideas.
Yours,
Esa Mäkinen
Vantaa, Finland
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:32:22 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] OT: ideas about music publishing & recording
In a message dated 1/11/03 4:26:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi writes:
Making decent home-recordings has also become easier and
easier,
(The most interestinig special feature in this pocketstudio
is the
co-operation feature: send the file to a friend and he/she
plays own
parts to it and sends it back to you.)
A few years ago I purchased a similar device. It was a Yamaha MD-8.
It's an 8-track digital multi-track recorder with a built-in minidisc
recorder. I chose this because the minidisc is erasable and if I record
a mistake can record over it. It also gave me flexibility because I can
record different music projects at the same time by merely removing the
disc and inserting another disc. Our singer also purchased the same
multi-track because we can record at our own convenience, at our own
homes, and give the discs to each other to record our individual parts.
She has recorded 2 or 3 CDs on her multi-track with good results.
It is an inexpensive means of recording music, a demo, or just getting an
idea to work on later.
Jake Conte
New Jersey, U.S.A.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:30:21 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] Lending Library????
There is a bibliography on our website:
www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/biblio.html. It's a little out of date, and
recommendations/reminders to me (offlist, preferably) of what's missing
would be appreciated, as a rewrite of the entire site is underway.
As for what's must-see, that depends on your tastes ;-) Hopefully the
descriptions in the bibliography will guide you.
Alden
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 14:32:41 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: [HG] Amta tunes
AMTA Issue 2/2000 from La Jimbr'tee is now available.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:21:53 -0000
From: Graham Whyte <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Amta tunes
What's an AMTA tune ?
Graham Whyte
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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:00:16 -0800
From: Joan D'Andrea <jeepstr42 _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
RE; authority??? It has been my experience when I read this that it is
a "likely excuse" for a decision made by a middle manager. :-)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 08:56:11 -0800
From: Joan D'Andrea <jeepstr42 _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] video on the web from St. Chartier 2002
RT. Thanks for the link to San Chartier. It was a fun trip to part of
the festival. I wish there were more vidio clips from the event. Joan
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:04:40 -0500
From: A.J. Bashore II <noizmkr _at_ dcweblink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] OT: ideas about music publishing & recording
Folks,
Please remember that there is an inexpensive program called tabledit. I
use this for my various instruments. I believe the developer would love
to add Hurdy Gurdy to its instrument list. All he would need is specific
idiosyncrasies concerning the instrument and its playing.
www.tabledit.com
Matthieu Leschemelle is the developer. matthieu _at_ tabledit.com
Since I do not have an HG in my hands, I just cannot do this.
Thanks.
In Harmony,
A.J. Bashore II
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:04:38 -0800
From: Joan D'Andrea <jeepstr42 _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
Anybody know who Alice is. Joan
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:02:33 -0800
From: Joan D'Andrea <jeepstr42 _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] New subject: a new HG design
Hmmm. Idle hands and devils work, seems to fit with playing the HG. For
my part, I get my best ideas while sanding, sanding, drifving to the wood
store, sanding sanding. Joan
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:41:22 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: [HG] Workshop/Anne-Lise Foy
Hi,
it might be interesting for some of you that at Easter 2003 (21st - 26th
April 03)
theres a workshop with Anne-Lise Foy (HG) near Cologne. Its not meant for
beginners.
Besides there is Bruno le Tron (accordéon), Pauline Cato (Northumbrian
Smallpipes), Danyéle and Gilles Besserer (folk dance).
For further information see www.bordun.de or contact me off the list.
all the best
Petra
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:01:28 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Amta tunes
For those who missed the introduction to these tunes, AMTA stands for
Agence des Musiques Traditionelles en Auvergne . It is an excellent
source of information on events and in France and one of it's services
is the dissemination of tunes, traditional and modern. These are posted
quarterly to subscribers and comprise 16 tunes per issue, selected by
respected musicians. AMTA has kindly given me permission to transcribe
these tunes and post them on my website. The tunes I post have been
available from AMTA for 2 years and as I receive the most recent issue, I
set too and add an issue to my site.
Further information is available at their site - http://www.amta.com.fr
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 17:02:35 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
I am Alice. Why do you ask? I was bidding on the book because there are no
other hurdy-gurdy players of any strength down here, and I have very little
way to learn much about the instrument except through books. I may give up on
the bidding now, as it is going a little high.
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:01:15 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
Have the two of you thought about teaming up and sharing the book and
halving the cost?
Colin Hill
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:21:06 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Copy of Palmer on eBay
In a message dated 1/12/03 6:02:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
c.hl _at_ virgin.net writes:
Have the two of you thought about teaming up and sharing the
book and
halving the cost?
Colin Hill
It's a nice idea, but don't know if it's possible. Who would keep the
actual book? It's the same as the "lending library" proposal. The
concept is good but impractical. Sending books across a country or
across continents add other problems: what if a book is lost in the
mail? Or it accidentally gets damaged in someone's home or in transit?
It would cause usually nice people to have bad feelings, etc.
Maybe something can be worked out offlist.
Jake Conte: who is also in an area lacking hurdy gurdy players.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:18:15 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: [HG] Hurdy-gurdies in Acadia?
Hey, guys, can anyone settle a question: I'm considering joining a historic
re-enactment group that does old French dances in costume, here in Acadiana,
but for the most part, they do not do "Cajun" music, they are enacting the
original Acadian culture in historic costume. They perform in places like
France and Quebec, that sort of thing. And so far as they know, hurdy-gurdy
isn't a part of that. All they know is like fiddle, accordion, guitar, like
that. Anybody know anything different? For myself, I can hardly imagine the
original Acadians (certainly in Canada, if not Louisiana) not having h-g's.
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:09:08 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: RE: [HG] Lending Library????
--- Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ cogeco.ca> wrote:
> I was
> wondering if someone could provide a good
> bibliography, perhaps with
> the real must-see books highlighted.
A short "commented" biblio about baroque HG is
available here
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045/biblio/biblio.html
=====
Marcello Bono
Bologna-Italy
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:25:27 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy-gurdies in Acadia?
> Hey, guys, can anyone settle a question: I'm
> considering joining a historic
> re-enactment group that does old French dances in
> costume
How much "old"?
I have a reconding called "Music of the nouvelle
France" (or something about that) where a kind of
"folf-baroque" ensemble plays really nice 17th and
18th century "Canadian" music using "baroque"
instruments....no hurdy-gurdies indeed.
One of the tune of the record is a nice tambourin that
is in the baroque HG by Corrette but the source quoted
by the record note is different....
I was the same tambourin I played together with
Christope Tellart during the latest OTW festival (I
was the one on the right side of the stage....the so
called "la belle vielleuse" :o)
=====
Marcello Bono
Bologna-Italy
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:10:45 -0500
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ cogeco.ca>
Subject: RE: [HG] Lending Library????
merci beaucoup alden and marcello!
alison
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:13:17 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Amta tunes --- Are you trying to make me think on a
Sunday morning?
Oops!! All fixed now - It was Sunday morning here too !!
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:10:48 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] Amta tunes --- Are you trying to make me think on a
Sunday morning?
if it's sunday, why am I at work?
Richard Lewis
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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:54:45 -0500
From: Tobie Miller <recorderist _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy-gurdies in Acadia?
Well, I live in Québec, and I've seen several hurdy gurdies as part of
re-enactments here, if that helps. The traditional music of Québec is quite
different from that of France, however, it is much closer to Irish music,
probably due to the huge amount of intermarriage etc. between French and
Irish communities in Nouvelle France (both being Catholic!).
Tobie
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:18:17 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
To: "hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com" <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com>
Subject: [HG] GH in Acadiana ,
Chère Alice ,
I feel that I may be the person to answer your question ,and
the answer is a definite " maybe " .
I am myself part of a re-constitution unit called " la Milice de
Chambly"
http://www.geocities.com/lasrhq/
The real question here is the type and level of historical
re-constitution
that is to be performed .
If we are to aim at the highest level of authenticity , the general
practice
is that any action or artifact has to be suported by two different first
level sources ( archive or archéology find )
At this level , there is only one mention to be found , a mention in
" les Relations des Jésuites " for the year 1632 if my memory is good.
now , a 1632 HG would look like this
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/xaime/vielle/histoire/delat.html
An " almost accurate " <g> reddition of that event figures in the
beginning of the film " Black Robe "
The Baroque / Classic / Folk HG , guitar or luthe shaped
as we know it today is a XVIII th century creation.
Now , there is one aspect of the Nouvelle France that is very
well documented , PEOPLE LOVED TO DANCE .
Many account of travellors , military archives , justice papers
show the love of dancing of these people , my favorite one is
a French army officer 's request for a post in a garrison where
there is a dancing master , to continue his education .
Strangers are surprised by these people ready to travel for days
on snowshoes , just to attend to a bal somwhere .
Our problem is that the social status on musicians was so low
that nobody thought important to write about them .
When the France borned population went back to Europe
in 1760 , they probably brought their music instruments with
them , so there is very little shown in wills or other legal papers.
( a few violons , guitars, luthes and flutes ,of baroque style of
course )
Now , historical re-constitution also involve a certain amount
of experimentation , the group I belong to sometime
uses the services of a HG player once in a while , for dances
or animation with the public .
" Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence " is a concept
to be used with caution .
Now , the repertory of music played is also the subject of very
intense research , many interesting facts emerge almost daily .
As M. Bono mentioned , this is a time before the word "folklore"
came to use , Baroque ballet airs are sometime mixed with
medieval tunes , modern day folk tunes sometime find roots
in Toinot Arbeau or Michel Corettes work .
In short , it is a very interesting hobby , far from the popular idea of
it , there is still a lot of work to do in the field , and the job
done by
amateurs is very much respected by the scholars.
I hope that these bits of information can be of some help .
Votre humble et dévoué serviteur ,
Henry Boucher
PS What is this reconstitution unit you mentioned ? Is it
" les habitants du fort Beauséjour " ?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:14:42 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] More about "Canadian" early music
I've send a mail about a record, here's more
information:
Ensemble la Nouvelle-France
Danses e contredanses de la Nouvelle France
Harmonia Mundi Black Label HM 5145 (for 33rpm "vinyl")
According to the ensemble this is " a testimony and an
authentic reflection of the musical life in early
Canada during the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries".
Music by anonimous, Frederic Molt and Heinrich
Glackemeyer (both from Germany, Molt settled in Quebec
in 1823, and Glackemeyer moved to Canada at age of 25
(about 1776) as a musician of the Brunswick regiment,
protecting the country against the invasion of
American revolutionaires.....)
Other more interesting music from Rachel Frobisher's
book (Montreal 1793). She was a youg (then...)lady
from the English mid-class and the music of her
tunebooks is quite similar to English and Scottish
music of that age (a kind of "modern" Playford dancing
master).
The "Corrette's" tambourin is from a 18th century
manuscript in the Quebec Seminary (only the upper
voice in the manuscript, the Ensemble made the
harmony).
Nothing "special" and no hurdy-gurdies but a nice and
quite unusual record (most can be played with a gurdy,
if trasposed)
=====
Marcello Bono
Bologna-Italy
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 12:27:30 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
To: "hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com" <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com>
Subject: [HG] " Canadian " early music ,
Hi Marcello,
The " Emsemble Nouvelle France " is still working
http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r15130/musique.htm
here are some W3 samples
http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r15130/musipieces.htm
The French influence in the actual folk music is
mostly visible in the songs , less in the dance music
( in some areas the "Cotillon " has survived )
Many Corrette tunes are at the origin of some
Chrismas songs
http://www.boreades.com/site/disques.f/acd_2_2118.html
( # 4 )
Also interesting , l'Ensemble Claude Gervaise, where
there is a HG , played by Philippe Gélinas
they play Renaissance and early Baroque music ,
http://pages.infinit.net/gplante/ecg/ecg.html
The actual " Traditionne Québecois " music reflects
the influence of the Irish immigration of the 19th centh.
Actually , for political and historical reasons , in most countries
the folkloric music repertoire is what was around in the mid
19 cent.
Henry Boucher
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: 14 Jan 2003 10:08:37 -0800
From: Dina Hartzell <dina _at_ spiritone.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] GH in Acadiana ,
I'd like to complicate the question. No one so far has mentioned the
Occitan people who were purportedly exterminated during the
Inquisition, but whom I found alive and well, though heavily
oppressed, suppressed and repressed (have YOU heard of them?) when I
lived in Toulouse in the mid 70's. The Auvergne is considered,
ethnically, including linguistically, a part of what is now known as
Occitania (also the home of the ancient troubadours.)
Though I have studied this history, I have not studied Cajun history,
and do not know if there are connections. I believe that if there
were, they would most certainly include a strong music and dance
element.
The Occitan people, tenacious as they are, would have had strong
reasons to escape their homeland...
Also, I find it disturbing that we always say "French" when we speak
of the hurdy gurdy and of the Auvergne and its music. The "French"
have been the oppressors, and if it were not for the ingenuity of the
Occitan people, much of the very music of which we speak would have
been lost. Though "French" is correct politically, it is a title that
many Occitan people reject, especially concerning cultural issues. I
know there is much ignorance (largely attributable to the suppression
by the "French"), and so am forgiving, but could we at least begin to
make an effort to correct our understanding?
-Dina
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:32:37 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
To: "hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com" <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com>
Subject: [HG] Acadia
As far as I know , the civilian population of Acadia was mostly
from the provinces of Poitou-Charente , Brittany , Normandy
The numbers get complicated when Army personnel is taken
into account , as soldiers could come from any area , because
the regiments where always recruiting , whenever they went,
the garrison of Louisbourg also had a fair amount of merceneries
( the Swiss come to mind ).
In modern days , in Louisiana , the Breton family names do
stand as most remarquables , but I do not have the smallest
idea if it reflect something in real numbers .
As for the history of Occitans ( Cathares ? ) I would
rather leave to somebody else to comment .
Henry Boucher
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:14:26 +0100
From: Vincent Méry <vincent.mery _at_ free.fr>
Subject: Re: [HG] French History!
Hi all, Hi Dina,
I would like to correct some elements in Dina's last mail.
The differences between Occitan and what Dina call "French" is not so
obvious. If you know how did France was built you would understand that
it is made of different people that we call "les peuples français". The
word "French" and even the word "France" refers to a specific region
northwards Paris. The first French kings were only kings over this
region. Then they expanded and Auvergne was not a part of this region
call "France" and is always keeping a strong cultural identity.
Then I would like to say that there was not any Occitan genocide!!! What
a strange idea! Some Occitans had a religion "les cathares" different
from the king's (he was a catholic). A Crusade was organised by the
Northern Lords and by the way Occitania was integrated in the catholic
ans northern sphere of influence. There was no planned mass-murder
against Occitans.
Finally I would emphasise that each region of France still cultivates
its own specificities even if the 1789 revolution, the need for
"centralisme" and the use of French through free and compulsory school
in 1885 (from 6 to 13) had lessen the influence of the regional
cultures. I am not sure that talking of "oppressor" is accurate. There
had been a more or less good-will mix. Please do not collapse today's
schemes (or properly US schemes) with what had occur in a so old
country affected by so much influence!!
I have tried to be clear and I did not want to be offensive (I am not a
native speaker) ;-)
Vincent.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: 14 Jan 2003 12:29:58 -0800
From: Dina Hartzell <dina _at_ spiritone.com>
Cc: drakulaus _at_ cs.com
Subject: Re: [HG] French History!
Vincent--and everyone,
I suspect that you, like so very many Americans, have been fed the
"government" versions of your history. It is what keeps us all
stupid. Look around you. There is so much more to the story! With
respect, I will explain further:
In 1209, Pope Innocent III, along with the Lords of the North, then
called Franks, launched a crusade, purportedly against the heretics
(Les Cathares) of the southern regions, but in fact, this crusade WAS
a massacre and a genocide. The first strike against Beziers left no
man, woman or child alive, regardless of religious affiliation. After
the crusade, the Inquisition systematically killed the remnants of
what had been a thriving, and very rich, culture. The pope wanted
religious control, but the Franks wanted political and economic
control. They struck a deal. The connections between the Cathars and
the rest of the culture(s) have been made by many fine scholars, many
of them writing in French. I will be happy to send you a long
bibliography if you would like.
As to later oppression/suppression, one Occitan friend of mine has
likened the relationship of the Occitan people with the French to the
that of the American Indians to the US government. Suppression and
oppression have continued up through the centuries. People have been
forbidden to speak their natural tongue, once known as the great
Langue d'Oc, language of the troubadours. The accent resulting from
having to speak French has been the source of discrimination and
distrust. While I was there, a University teacher's son was denied
entrance at an organization in Paris. The reason was given that he
had a tiny southern accent--hard as he and his mother had worked to
help him speak in the northern way. The Occitan language, still
lauded around the world for beautiful love poetry, is ignored or
degraded. It is commonly known as the "Patois" a derogatory word
implying a kind of lower-class slang. I have myself witnessed the
shame and embarrassment of Occitan speaking people. Once, in my
presence, an Occitan friend opened conversation with an older couple
who had been heard speaking to each other in Occitan as they walked
toward us. They carried on a 10 minute conversation with my friend
speaking Occitan and they speaking French with a heavy accent. My
friend later explained to me that they were both embarrassed and
suspicious because of the discrimination they, and so many others,
had been used to. Finally, they asked him if he were not from around
here. They were native speakers who had recognized not only the
language, but knew that he did not speak their dialect, for indeed,
he was from another region. Did you know there are 7 dialects of
Occitan? There are even sub-dialects. It is a very rich language.
Does it not occur to you that the fact that most people don't even
know that these people or their language still exist might be a
result of repression? Aaaargh!
I could go on. For many, this has not been what you call "a good will
mix." I don't suppose you know anything of the vinyardists'
revolution in southern France in the mid 70's? I can give you
resources for that, too. And it is only recently that some children
have been allowed to study in their native tongue. Occitania is not
the only oppressed region. Speak with the Bretons. Ask if they did
not have signs in their school halls as late as the 60's that said
"Defendé de cracher et de parler Breton."
Your "first kings" did not just expand, they conquered--in a brutal
way, just as the Americans conquered the Indians here--with mass
murder, and ultimately for similar purposes. To be honest, we have to
call it genocide--in both cases.
I know this conversation is not specifically about music or
instruments, but I think it is VERY important to the understanding of
the music of these areas of France, and the people who play/played
it, which/whom we all love so much.
Et puis Vincent, si tu veux, tu peux m'écrire en Français--je te comprendrai.
Amitiés,
Dina
PS Perhaps the list would like a bookllist?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:21:03 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re:OT? [HG] French History!
Hmmm, dangerous ground here methinks. I think most countries have been
through similar situations. Certainly the UK, although much smaller, has. As
a Welshman I can appreciate the problems of having culture and language
forbidden. Eventually and given time they do ease up - look at us - Normans,
Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Vikings - they have all left their mark here.
Please don't condemn us for our ignorance of local cultures. In the UK there
are what would seem to some, totally different languages although all
classed as "English" (I talk here of local dialects which may be diverse
although only a few miles separate them) and the actual Cornish language
officially died out in the 1700's - although it has started up again with
many followers (for those not familiar with the UK, Cornwall is right down
the left hand side - the "foot" of the UK if you like).
I think it is important that, when we use tunes of any sort, that they are
researched well so that we can all pass information like this on to the
listeners (without the freedom call though please) so that we can all learn.
Sorry it's so long but I felt quite ashamed that I had never heard of
Occitans. Education conquers prejudice.
Colin Hill
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 21:41:43 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
To: "hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com" <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com>
Subject: [HG] French Politics<g>
Rough sea ahead ! ......
And very few HG to keep us afloat ( in french the luthe
body HG is sometime called boat shaped " vielle-bateau")
Still I would like to bring some interesting angles to this
discussion before Alden comes to bring back the peace .
In the " Modal " collection of the FAMDT collection
http://www.famdt.com/boutique/collection_modal_livre.htm
there is a book titled " L'Air du Temps "
it covers some aspects of different folk revivals , from
the Romantic 19th cent. to the modern day world music .
It is very interesting to observe how different people come
to see themselves and their own culture . There is mention
of the Félibrige movement
http://www.felibrige.com/
http://www.felibrige.com/fondation.html
http://li.gai.farandoulaire.free.fr/htmlanglais/Homepage.html
The way I understand it ( and I may be wrong )
it seems that in their haste to protect their heritage
the founding fathers of the movement took all
necessary means to promote the playing of the
local Drum and Tabor
http://membres.lycos.fr/paysdegrasse/encyclopedie/galoubet/galoubetamb.htm
but somehow neglected the Boha , a local bagpipe
http://membres.lycos.fr/miqueu/bohaires/
wich had to wait for a later day revival to come back
under the sun .
Similar ( or reverse ?) situation in " Haute Bretagne ",
where the folk groups neglected the HG , wich was
quite traditionnal in the area , and adopted the Scottish
Pipe Band . ( I finally place a HG in the message )
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/xaime/vielle/breizh/bretag.htm
I guess that there are no "pure" cultures , as there
are no "pure " ethnic groups either .
The situation is specially strange for anybody
who claims the " Cathare " heritage , as the Cathares
like the Shaquers , religious beliefs led them to
abstain from sexual activities .
Henry Boucher
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:05:31 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] GH in Acadiana ,
--- Dina Hartzell <dina _at_ spiritone.com> wrote:
> I'd like to complicate the question. No one so far
> has mentioned the
> Occitan people who were purportedly exterminated
> during the
> Inquisition, but whom I found alive and well, though
> heavily
> oppressed, suppressed and repressed (have YOU heard
> of them?)
Yes of course....everytime I listen to a LOU DALFIN
cd...Sergio Berardo, the gurdy player, love to be
called as "occitan" and he plays and drink very well
:o)
> Also, I find it disturbing that we always say
> "French" when we speak
> of the hurdy gurdy and of the Auvergne and its
> music. The "French"
> have been the oppressors, and if it were not for the
> ingenuity of the
> Occitan people, much of the very music of which we
> speak would have
> been lost.
Unfortunately someone (like me)loves to play
hurdy-gurdy music made by "oppressor" too.....
Let me say that "oppressor" don't fit very well to
people like Corrette, Chedeville, Boismortier, Baton,
Delavigne....may I use "composer" instead?
=====
Marcello Bono
Bologna-Italy
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: 15 Jan 2003 01:18:40 -0800
From: Dina Hartzell <dina _at_ spiritone.com>
Subject: [HG] more History & an apology
I sure hope no one is taking my contribution as an affront or
criticism of any sort. In looking back at my language, I see how
people could read it that way. I have a rather abrupt and direct
style--my apologies for that, especially to Vincent. Of course there
are no pure cultures, and of course there is no shame in not knowing
things--especially if the information has been kept secret from most
of the world. I bring this info to the table as an invitation to
people to become a little more aware of the culture from which we
take so much joy.
Please forgive me if I have offended anyone. I most certainly did not
intend to.
Henry, thanks for your information! I have not learned so much about
the Félibrige, but I believe that their movement has had some
influence on current Occitan ideology.
Also, FYI: The Cathares did not ALL abstain from sexual
activity--only the "perfects" or priests. They believed that an
incarnation was equivalent to enslaving a soul. Indeed, sex itself
was not a problem unless there was a conception. The bulk of the
people, known as "believers," lived pretty normal lives, eating meat
and having children. Their souls were "saved" by the rite called the
"consolamentum" after which one was required to live a pure life
until death in order to ensure that the soul would be given a
permanent place in heaven and not have to return to another body. The
Perfects underwent this rite at any time in life, but most people
asked for the rite on their death beds to ensure that they would not
"slip" after it was given.
I feel quite odd telling French people about their history &
culture--but then maybe it is happening to allow me to repay an old
debt I owe to some Occitan people I once knew who taught me about
mine....
With love and respect to all,
-Dina
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: 15 Jan 2003 01:26:09 -0800
From: Dina Hartzell <dina _at_ spiritone.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] GH in Acadiana ,
>
>Unfortunately someone (like me)loves to play
>hurdy-gurdy music made by "oppressor" too.....
>Let me say that "oppressor" don't fit very well to
>people like Corrette, Chedeville, Boismortier, Baton,
>Delavigne....may I use "composer" instead?
Chuckle. Marcello, you are a gem!
Have the composers you mentioned above smothered any Occitans lately?
Or burned a Cathar?
Now, that introduces the topic of oppressive hurdy gurdy players... ;-)
or, perhaps tyrannical hurdy gurdy teachers.... hee hee
A big hug to you!
-Dina
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:48:11 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] GH in Acadiana ,
--- Dina Hartzell <dina _at_ spiritone.com> wrote:
> Have the composers you mentioned above smothered any
> Occitans lately?
> Or burned a Cathar?
I don't know, but seem that Corrette used to say:
"I'm sorry to be so late for burning some Cathars but
I'll try to do something useful the same: more than
fifteen wrong methods" :o)
a big hug to you too!
=====
Marcello Bono
Bologna-Italy
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:28:12 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] GH in Acadiana ,
Dina
my french lecturer at university was an expert on Occitan. she wrote the
following book:
The World of the Troubadours: Medieval Occitan Society c.1100 - c.1300, by
Linda Paterson
Cambridge University Press; ISBN: 0521558328
It's in print and available on amazon.
Richard Lewis
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: 15 Jan 2003 21:54:33 -0800
From: Dina Hartzell <dina _at_ spiritone.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] GH in Acadiana ,
Thank you Richard, I own the book and have read a lot of it. I found
her discussion about the economic and political power of 12th century
Occitan women particularly interesting. The book is very academic,
and full of sociological detail (the level of research is
remarkable), and thus very useful for research, but not the easiest
read.
Apropos of our discussion on oppression, here are Linda's closing words:
"Occitania . . . was the first spectacular casualty of the 'formation
of a persecuting society,' the victim of a desire on the part of
outsiders to dominate and control" (344).
-Dina
PS Please tell Linda for me if you see her again that I am extremely
grateful for her important contribution! Does she also
play/sing/dance?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:50:06 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] GH in Acadiana ,
>PS Please tell Linda for me if you see her again that I am extremely
grateful for her important contribution! Does she also
play/sing/dance?
Crivens, now there's an image! The thought of the eminent Dr Paterson
getting down and dirty with a hurdy gurdy, even in the interests of
academe, is a little beyond my imagination, but who's to say it ain't true?
Dina, I find the subject of Occitana fascinating, but I'm not very good at
cultural purity. In music I borrow greedily from whatever interests me:
Parisian musette, Arabic music, whatever, with respect but not a whole lot
of reverence. Does this make me some kind of imperialist force? Am I the
irresponsible, misguided Bonaparte of the HG? Or is it just that we have
hold of a living, evolving, somewhat itinerant instrument? The accurate
recreation of something from history is a useful and interesting thing to
do. But should we limit ourselves to that?
I send this to the list because it would be good to hear people's views.
xx
Richard Lewis
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:43:48 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Photo on E Bay
Dear All--
I showed the photo to my German teacher and our Croatian friend. Greta,
the Croatian recognized the type of character; she had seen people dressed
just this way when she was a young girl/ She says he is probably a "Haiduck,"
pronounced Hi duke. This a type of spiritual artist/musician-soldier who
lives in the woods in the Austria-Hungary-Balkan area. The braids are a
fashion left over from the Mongolian invasions of the past. She speculated
the carved flask as Turkish work.
Since she has actually seen people who dressed just like this, she probably
is on track, and my German teacher pretty well agreed. They are both pretty
old, and have seen a lot. Greta spent most of her youth fleeing WWII all over
the place.
Cheers,
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: 16 Jan 2003 23:45:26 -0800
From: Dina Hartzell <dina _at_ spiritone.com>
Subject: [HG] Occitania
Richard,
Purity? Heaven forbid!!!! Where on earth did you get the idea that I
am talking about purity?!?!?! I'm just wanting to recognize that
there is an ethnic group here that we are ignoring, in the same way
we ignore Indian peoples when we talk about "Americans," or
"westerners." They were there before the colonization and deserve to
be noticed. Also, just as with the Indians, we are not simply
speaking of "accurate recreation of something from history." These
are real people living and breathing NOW, and trying to keep their
culture alive against many odds. To talk about purity would be silly.
The Occitans were a marvelous mix to begin with. Nonetheless, they
DID and DO have a culture that is largely disregarded or dismissed.
Purity is a concept that is for control freaks. (Hello
Christophe--are you with us? C. has some things to say about "purity"
I think!) Unfortunately, there have been some of those both in the
French government and in the US government (etc, etc).
Limit? Did I say limit? NEVER! I wasn't even talking about the
re-creation of anything. Besides, I don't believe "recreation" is
possible--unless you are talking about play. Itinerant is my middle
name. Patch-work is my other one. True to the heart regardless of the
details, but also respectful and appreciative of the products of
other peoples' (ie:ethnic groups) hearts.
The Occitan people are, as we speak, both recreating and creating.
While I was with them, there were "new" songs coming out like
fireworks. They were also experimenting with their musical
relationships with Bulgaria, Spain, the Basques, and the Gypsies, or
Rom people. We can all play with "borrowing" as you put it. Still, we
do not lose our roots.
I believe that variety of cultural expression is critical to survival
of the whole--just as the existence of a large variety of species is
also critical. When we lose cultures, it is like losing species. I'm
just doing what I can to help bring attention to one little-big
culture that I happen to love, and that happens to be relevant to
this list.
BTW, I'm experimenting with Bulgarian music on my gurdy, too.... It's
a strange thing trying to make the coups for those extreme odd #
meters (try 15/16--I dare you!)....
Best, Dina
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:47:35 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: [HG] Photo on E Bay
Alice-
It just occurred to me that hayduk (the way Ukrainian expats spell it)
is something that ran across my mind when we were discussing the
picture--I didn't know enough about the hayduki to make an i.d...but
this sounds to me also like the best identification, esp coming from
someone in the know. The hayduki (pl of hayduk in ukrainain) were also
prevalent in western Ukraine (once part of austro-hungarian empire,
which makes a lotta sense).
I'll try to show the photo to some Ukrainians who know more about
hayduks and their history; I bet I'll get a confirmation of what you
also find out.
Cheers!
Vlad
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:04:57 +0200
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Re: [HG] Occitania
This purity concept is interesting. For all of us there is sharp
thinking about it in the booklet of Gilles Chabenat's cd Bleu nuit
(not written by him, if I remember this correctly).
Esa Mäkinen
Finland
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:53:32 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: [HG] musical roots
Wow Dina, you're like a tornado -- an eminent tornado ;-)
I really just wanted to widen the discussion and hear how other people on
the list approached the idea of roots music; whether people feel its okay
to mix and match to create something new -- or "play at borrowing" if you
like -- or whether they feel attached to one style, culture or period in
history, and if so why that's important to them. Maybe I phrased it badly.
There is a lot of discussion in the UK right now about the notion of
culural identity and I am writing something about folk music. People's
responses might help me work out what questions to ask when I interview for
my book.
Any thoughts, anyone?
Richard Lewis
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: 17 Jan 2003 09:38:08 -0800
From: Dina Hartzell <dina _at_ spiritone.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Occitania
Could you help those of us who do not have the CD by giving a summary?
-Dina
>This purity concept is interesting. For all of us there is sharp
>thinking about it in the booklet of Gilles Chabenat's cd Bleu nuit
>(not written by him, if I remember this correctly).
>
>Esa Mäkinen
>Finland
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: 17 Jan 2003 10:11:22 -0800
From: Dina Hartzell <dina _at_ spiritone.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Richard,
It seems very good to me if some people try their best to hold on to
traditional styles of music while others "mix and match." Or, even to
be one person who can do both. Gilles might be a good example of this
latter. He seems to have a lot of respect for his "roots" while at
the same time testing the potential of the gurdy to go far beyond.
I think your question ties in to the cultural questions we were
discussing earlier. It is important not to reject or dismiss one side
of the coin in favor of the other.
As an American with multiple (and much lost) heritage, I find it
necessary to get my "roots" from my heart. But that's OK, too because
I believe that that's where cultural expression comes from. If my own
heart has led me to into India, Native America, Occitania, and the
Balkans, it is likely that my music will reflect (and not always
"purely") these traditions. It is also likely that I will blend
elements from them.
Cultures around the world are not "pure." Only certain expressions
can perhaps be called pure because they have been recorded in some
way--or carefully tended.
There is a wonderful story from India: A certain monastery had a
certain cat who had the habit of coming into the prayer room and
disturbing the monks at prayer. The abbot began the practice of tying
the cat to a post during prayer times. When he was called away for a
period of time, he left instructions to the monks, and among the
instructions was, "Tie the cat to the post." Time passed. The abbot
passed. Monks passed. The cat passed. The new monks got a new cat,
and following the directions that had been codified in the interim,
they religiously tied the new cat to the post.
What's real and what's rules? Pay attention and follow your heart!
-Affectionately, Dina
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:55:50 -0800
From: Dean Cully <dfcully _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] A Tekerölantos naplója - 1999 Film
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0193555
Does anyone have any information on this apparently obscure recent film from
Hungary, yet starring several well known American actors (including, yes,
that's right, the actor aka "Meatloaf")?
US title: _The Diary of the Hurdy-Gurdy Man_
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:35:36 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: [HG] RE: [HG] A Tekerölantos naplója - 1999 Film
Wow! Does this mean we get to hear "Bat out of Hell" cuts done on HG? Or
perhaps we'll be treated to a Hungarian "Rocky Horror Gurdy Show"...
Just kidding, of course...I wish I had something to add about the origin
of the movie. I will try someone in town who might know about this...
Cheers,
Vlad
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:46:22 +0200
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Re: [HG] A Tekerölantos naplója - 1999 Film
So far I only found this with Google-search:
Several noted American actors dot this autobiographical feature from
Hungarian filmmaker Gabe Von Dettre (also know as Gabor Dettre) about the
difficulty of getting a break in the movie industry. Brad Dourif plays a
filmmaker who often talks to the audience about the main question on his
mind -- why can't he get a project financed when so many people with less
talent and fewer credentials are working steadily? This film (which was
many years in production, as evidenced by the presence of several actors
who are no longer living) was shown as part of the 1999 Hungarian Film
Week Festival. ~ Mark Deming, All Movie Guide
I found it at
http://www.blockbuster.com/bb/movie/details/0,7286,VID-V+++176688,00.html?
Esa M
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0193555
Does anyone have any information on this apparently obscure
recent film from
Hungary, yet starring several well known American actors
(including, yes,
that's right, the actor aka "Meatloaf")?
US title: _The Diary of the Hurdy-Gurdy Man_
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:43:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
--- richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk wrote:
> I ... wanted to widen the discussion and hear how other people on
> the list approached the idea of roots music; whether people feel its
> okay to mix and match to create something new --
> or "play at borrowing" if you like --
> or whether they feel attached to one style, culture or period in
> history, and if so why that's important to them.
>
I was disappointed at how little discussion this question received.
Then I tried to reply and realized that it's possible that everyone
else got bogged down in it the same way I did. The question is too big
to address in one sitting.
I have come to realize that I have no inherited roots. The closest
thing I have for a musical "Oral Tradition" is congregational singing.
Even that was mostly 20th century compositions getting read out of
books. All of my other early exposure was largely via TV and Radio.
Both of my grandfathers were fiddlers, but I never actually heard
either of them play. I started playing fiddle because I was wowed by
Richard Green of Seatrain. It's pretty discouraging to realize that my
main "Root" is American Top 40. But on the other hand since I don't own
a Tradition, it does not own me. You take a person like Nusrat, raised
in a family of musicians, being trained in that genre since before he
could sit up, much less talk. That man had roots. I believe in my soul
that if he hadn't been able to expand the genre without departing from
it nobody outside of Western Asia would have heard of him.
Or how about the Hank Williams Dynasty: Hank Sr. wrote several dozen
songs, died young, worshiped and adored by millions. His son, Hank Jr.,
started out covering "Daddy's" material and then found his own way, and
is very well liked by millions. Now we're seeing Hank III doing
essentially a Historical Re-enactment of his Grandfather. This man has
roots. We hope he will emerge into the talent of his forebears, expand
the Williams Legacy and Repertory.
Here's the point, people with roots should flower.
But if Roots provide the advantage of a lifetime education and a native
assurance of membership, they also impose limitations. Hank III would
have to be a fully-developed monster talent to get more than passing
curiousity as a hip-hop artist. (Anybody remember a band called Dino,
Desi, and Billy? I think they had one hit in the mid-sixties... I can't
find the motivation to research this.)
So here I am with no discernable roots. Is there any reason that I
should not also flower? I play fiddle, I like Irish dance tunes, why
not play that? Because I'm not Irish? (Both of my Grandmothers insisted
that I am). Oh, I'm from Texas, I'm supposed to play "Cotton-eyed Joe".
Just that one tune, that's all I get. That is not a native tune for me,
I'd just have to learn it off a book or record, same as "Lark in the
Morning", or "Liebestraum" for that matter. Or maybe I should just
forget fiddle entirely and sit around doing D.D.& B. covers with
vintage Fender equipment. Fiddle be my metaphor.
Nope, I have every right to choose what I play. But I also have a
responsibility to play it with some credibility. That's the up side up
Purist-ism: Any genre is what it is due to certain features. Purity
means "forget everything else and study this one thing with single
minded devotion". The downside: there is no end of sophomoric "experts"
that keep piling on rules. So the genre gets fossilized, and therefore
bored. That's why we don't hear much out of Bluegrass or Western Swing
anymore (incidently, both are deliberate hybrids that eclipsed their
"roots"). Strict adherence to Bill Monroe or Bob Wills recordings is
mandatory, any attempt at development is nipped in the bud. People do
break out occaisionally, but they rarely get far.
But I digress. If I am going to tackle a particular genre I need to
repect it for what it is, and adhere to the features. I can do this
partially by playing the tunes off of staff notation, but I'm not
really going to be playing the "real deal" without listening and
imitating the major players, lessons are great if you can get them. I
could download the collected works of Bob Wills and after a few years
can play everything he ever recorded note for note, nuance for nuance.
Does that make me a Western Swing Master? No, it makes me a Bob Wills
impersonator.
I suppose I could learn French by getting a dictionary and memorizing
the collected works of George Sand. All I can say or understand is what
she wrote. Now I'm driving in France and I get pulled over for some
minor traffic violation. My "mission" is to talk the police out of
writing a ticket. I might be able to do it, provided my diction is
clear, but affecting the accent and idiolect of a 19th century baroness
is probably going to get me in deeper than I already am. (Or forget all
that just memorize the dictionary and sring the words together with
English grammer.) The only way I'm getting out of this one is to chose
my own words carefully, and if I need to quote Mme Sand to buttress a
point, I have the ability to do so.
So, I'm playing the vielle and suddenly realize I'm in a redneck bar
and the natives are getting restless ... there's no point in pretending
to be a Western Swing Band, but my survival (or at least my comfort)
depends on my ability to quote Bob Wills: I will be all over "San
Antonio Rose" in the most 2-Steppable manner imaginable (not an exact
fit, but a plausible solution).
Actually, that kind of Slavish Imitation of Known Heroes is a very good
way to learn, but I'm not Bob Wills and I never will be. At some point
I need take what I've learned and use it to sound exactly like Roy
Trotter. (I hope that's worth hearing.)
Thanks for your time. Fiddle be my metaphor.
Roy Trotter
P.S. "Cultural Imperialism" is a neo-marxist facade touted by soreheads
that didn't get the gig.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:09:46 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
In re Roy Trotter's remarks--
I gotta say that I am technically a rootless, ethnosless person (white bread
from Louisiana, but not a Cajun), and I am guided not by my "roots" but by
two entirely other things:
(1). From the moment I heard the music of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance
in music history, I knew that was where I would be for the rest of my life.
And the repertory suitable to hurdy-gurdy is HUGE. Who needs roots if they
have history? And we all own history and it owns us. Then I met someone who
showed me another immense repertory of historic French music written for
hurdy-gurdy, so I assimilated that too. It's the roots of the instrument.
(2). I play to the crowd. I feel what the crowd wants and give it to them.
They move closer or they become tense. They relax or they turn to look at
something else. I just play what they want, and that's almost the only
priority I know. Except when they begin to clump up too close and I get
claustrophobia, and then I select something less intense, to get them to back
off a little.
And as to roots, not many of us were born into hurdy-gurdy families; we loved
it because we are what we are. We have to play what makes the instrument
shine.
My ten cents,
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:52:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: [HG] The Palmer book, final report
The Palmer book on eBay went for a final price of $198.50. WOW! Is the
buyer anyone we know? ;-)
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:00:30 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Nope, I have every right to choose what I play. But I also have a
responsibility to play it with some credibility. -- Roy
We have to play what makes the instrument
shine. -- Alice
Thanks a lot Roy and Alice for responding with these views. I'm the only
musician in a family that has been English for as many generations as I can
research. Staying true to my roots would pretty much limit me to the Morris
or the Brighouse and Rastrick Brass Band. So for obvious reasons, I'll try
anything.
Richard Lewis
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:48:16 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
In a message dated 1/22/2003 12:23:58 PM Central Standard Time,
richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk writes:
<< Staying true to my roots would pretty much limit me to the Morris
or the Brighouse and Rastrick Brass Band. So for obvious reasons, I'll try
anything. >>
How 'bout Playford Dancing Master? over 500 tunes in there.
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:21:07 -0700
From: bbc0 <bbc0 _at_ telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Sorry, what was the definition or 'roots' music again?
Barry
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:21:24 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
In a message dated 1/21/03 6:46:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com writes:
(Anybody remember a band called Dino,
Desi, and Billy? I think they had one hit in the
mid-sixties... I can't
find the motivation to research this.)
This Dino (Dean Martin's son), Desi (Desi Arnaz' son) and Billy Hinsche
(I'm not sure whose son he was). They were all children of famous
people, but just never made it big.
Jake Conte
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:01:13 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
In a message dated 1/21/03 6:46:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com writes:
(Anybody remember a band called Dino,
Desi, and Billy?
If anyone is interested this was on the Dino, Desi & Billy web site:
_____________________________
The group was composed of Dean Martin, Jr. (Dino), Desiderio Arnaz IV
(Desi) and William Hinsche (Billy). Dino was the son of singer/comedian
Dean Martin, Desi is the son of Hollywood stars Lucille Ball and Desi
Arnaz (of the 50's TV show I Love Lucy), and Billy is the son of a
successful real estate developer. They attended school together and
became friends, and in 1964 they formed their group. In the beginning,
they just played for fun. This band has been compared to another rock
group that was popular at the time, Gary Lewis and the Playboys. The
comparison is valid in the sense that both used their powerful show
business connections to get noticed (Lewis is the son of comedian Jerry
Lewis). But Lewis's group included some talented musicians, and Gary
himself proved to be adept as both a singer and songwriter. Dino, Desi &
Billy, on the other hand, performed with studio musicians and handled
only the vocals on most of their records, and even at that, they ! we! re
not among the best singers of their time. They recorded primarily on the
Reprise label, which was Dean Martin's label and for which an audition
was arranged in front of none other than Martin's good pal, Frank
Sinatra.
_________________________________
I guess there is an advantage to have famous parents. Eventually, talent
would have to amount for something.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:45:06 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
In a message dated 1/22/03 5:50:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com writes:
Richard Lewis wrote:
<< Staying true to my roots would pretty much limit me to the
Morris
or the Brighouse and Rastrick Brass Band. So for obvious
reasons, I'll try
anything. >>
How 'bout Playford Dancing Master? over 500 tunes in there.
Alice
Unless you're not familiar with English folk songs, Richard, there's
plenty of music to work from in England. I formed a band 20 years ago
which plays primarily English folk songs and we have yet to run out of
material.
Are you familiar with Steeleye Span, Fairport Convention, Pentangle, The
Albion Band, June Tabor, Martin Carthy, The Watersons, John Renbourn, Nic
Jones, Little Johnny England, Nigel Eaton, Jake Walton, Jez Lowe, Bert
Jansch, etc etc??
I'm sure you can spend days and months looking through English folk song
books at Cecil Sharp House and The Country Dance and Song Society.
And don't knock Morris Dance Music, it's very good and there's plenty to
choose from with the various Morris regional "traditions." Ashley
Hutchings recorded a few albums of Morris Dance music: "Morris On," "Son
Of Morris On," "Compleat Dancing Master" and he has recently released
"Grandson of Morris On."
One of our listmembers, John Roberts, is very knowledgeable with Englsih
folk songs.
I was born in Italy and feel closer to my Celtic roots then to my Italian
roots :-)
Jake Conte
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:51:08 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
In a message dated 1/22/2003 6:47:39 PM Central Standard Time,
DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com writes:
<< I formed a band 20 years ago which plays primarily English folk songs and
we have yet to run out of material. >>
Oh, yeah, and don't forget Childe's English and Scottish Ballads.
<<And don't knock Morris Dance Music, it's very good and there's plenty to
choose from with the various Morris regional "traditions." Ashley Hutchings
recorded a few albums of Morris Dance music: "Morris On," "Son Of Morris On,"
"Compleat Dancing Master" and he has recently released "Grandson of Morris
On.">>
I would totally like to get my hands on song morris dance music.
!
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:52:49 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
<< Sorry, what was the definition or 'roots' music again?
Barry >>
Oh, that's when your hurdy-gurdy strings grow longer and people can see you
dyed them.
:)
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:07:05 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots & English folk music
In a message dated 1/22/03 10:55:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com writes:
Jake Conte (that's me) wrote:
<< I formed a band 20 years ago which plays primarily English
folk songs and
we have yet to run out of material. >>
Oh, yeah, and don't forget Childe's English and Scottish
Ballads.
Alice, that's Child, as in Francis J. Child. He collected and put into
written form hundreds of English and Scottish ballads along with
variations. Excellent source of material. Larger libraries may have
copies of his work. When someone once asked me if I heard of the Child
Ballads I thought they were referring to ballads for children. Many
others have made that mstake. :-)
I would totally like to get my hands on song morris dance
music!
Alice
As for printed music, I'm sure the main office of the Country Dance &
Song Society in Massachusetts (not sure of what town) have booklets of
morris dance music. I remember seeing them when I was New York Pinewoods
Folk Music Club's newsletter editor in 1983. CDSS had their office in
the same building we had our office in New York City. They also had
books on English country dances with music and steps written. There may
be a CDSS branch down your neck. Next time you go out for some shrimp
po' boys, you can check it out :-)
Jake Conte: who's hoping he can learn enough HG to be able to play one
song for our March 7th gig.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:31:00 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Hello,
I did not react on this topic till now, since we just run through a very
similar topic at german 'folkmail' mailinglist and found it is a much
bigger question than what it seems to be on first sight.
bbc0 wrote:
> Sorry, what was the definition or 'roots' music again?
> Barry
from a ethno-musicologist I learned an interesting thought a while ago,
about the german language term 'volksmusik' which literararily means
'folk music' and in general means music with 'rooted' in german
speaking countries. I think this fits very well to your actuall
question:
This ethno-musicologist said: 'If a musican names his own music
'volksmusik'/folk music himselve it is *no* 'volksmusik'/folk music
according to the definition as 'volksmusik'/folk music is something done
without reflecting about origin or truth of roots and similar. Its just
what one is doing without reflection.
I personally would say 'roots' music, folk music, Volksmusik, are just
trade marks or boxes to label music.
To my understanding 'roots' music is just the brand name used by thouse
who for one or the other reason feel that the labels 'folk music' or
'traditional music' do not describe their music well.
I also would like to ad another idea: 'roots' music, 'folk music' or
'traditional music' all talk about musik someone is *making* not about
the music one is *listening to*.
At this point I get the impression that this definitions lead me to the
limits of ma knowledge of english, so please accept my apologises if
something did not come out in an understandable way. Another reason not
to join this discussion.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
... , aus zeitmangel und infolge widriger verhaeltnisse verlaesst die
mehrzahl der menschen diese welt, ohne ueber sie nachgedacht zu haben.
Einigen wiederum, die das zu tun versuchen, wird schwindelig, und sie
beschaeftigen sich mit etwas anderem.
Stanislaw Lem, Hundertsiebenunddreissig Sekunden
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:07:26 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Simon: nothing wrong with your english, it is much better than mine
For example, I misrepresented myself via a cheap joke. I like Morris music
very much and I bought 'Grandson of Morris On' to try and learn some tunes
for the HG, but was disappointed. Even though it is obviously recorded with
enormous affection, I felt the bouncy, jaunty spirit of the Morris dances,
which I love, had been partially deadened by drum kit and electric guitar:
two things you rarely see in a morris side. I particularly liked the number
by Simon Pipe's Outside Capering Crew: a fantastically vibrant and intense
dance, of which some of the spirit is still audible on Hutchings' mix
>Unless you're not familiar with English folk songs, Richard . . .
Perhaps the search for musical 'roots' is as naive and simplistic as the
words I've used to decribe it, Jake, but it is something that interests me
on various levels.
I couldn't say I was familiar with English folk songs, no, although I would
love to be. That's the point: Ironically I am much more familiar with
French, American, Irish and Scottish music. The English are just not good
at promoting their traditional music to themselves or the rest of the world
and hence in my experience it tends to be the domain of a [relatively] few
dedicated enthusiasts whose good work is greatly appreciated. There have
been a lot of books in the UK recently about 'what is englishness?' but
none of them mention cecil sharp, lloyd or include more than a passing
derogatory reference to the Morris tradition that Sharp almost
singlehandedly revived. Quite telling I think. I work full time and the
Vaughan Williams library at C-Sharp House is only open on the second
saturday of every month, or something. All very frustrating for those of us
who were not around for the 60s folk revival you allude to.
I have several albums by Carthy, Jansch, Renbourne and the Pentangle. I
like them a lot but I couldn't say it amounted to familiarity with English
folk music. Rather, it feels like only the tip of the iceberg. Jansch's
music is very intimate and reflective and I often play his songs on the
guitar. I am trying to imagine that translating to the hurdy gurdy . . .
I love to play French music on the hurdy gurdy. It's wonderful music that
makes the instrument sing. But sometimes I want to play something English,
so I could join in a session, perhaps. But when that urge comes over me I
don't know what to play so I make something up. And when I do that it
sounds more French or American or Irish than anything else, because that's
what I know.
xx
Richard Lewis
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:35:07 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
>How 'bout Playford Dancing Master? over 500 tunes in there.
Alice
Thanks Alice. What is it and where can I get it?
Richard
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:06:11 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots & English folk music
In a message dated 1/22/2003 11:09:04 PM Central Standard Time,
DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com writes:
<< Larger libraries may have copies of his work. >>
Guess what-- They are in the process at last of being reprinted after
forever. I have volume 1 and eagerly await vol. 2 of 5. Editors: Mark and
Laura Heiman. Publisher: Loomis House Press. Total cost with shipping of vol
1: $38.18. Can you beieve this work is not perpatually in print? (Never mind
Dover edition, which is only the words.)
Cheers,
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:57:42 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
For those having trouble getting printed music, try searching for any known
title on the web that you want (eg Staines Morris) and search for midi
tunes (Staines morris midi) - (74 results on Google). There are a lot of
cheap (and sometimes free or free with a magazine) programs that will print
them out in music notation (or abc). If you find a good site, just bookmark
it.
It is surprising just how many traditional tunes are available this way
together with medieval tunes (as a starter try www.mudcat.org - you have to
join - free - and log on but it is a mine of info) . Very handy if you don't
want a complete collection or want to hear those tunes you have never heard
of!)
Hope this helps.
Colin Hill
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:25:34 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Generally in print in paperback, however, every medium-sized university
library will have a copy. The frustrating thing for some is that it contains
only the 500 and more tunes. For us, that is a plus. If you are looking for
realizations of some of these gems in four-part arrangements, I have a book
containing some of these. Also, I have successfully played them with
hurdy-gurdy (and many other popular chestnuts from the renaissance -- Frog
Galliard, Pastime With Good Company, etc.) in a four-part ensemble, and it
sounds totally super. However, I have to transcribe them all to C.
Cheers,
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:14:23 -0500
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots & English folk music
> Alice, that's Child, as in Francis J. Child. He collected and put into
> written form hundreds of English and Scottish ballads along with
> variations. Excellent source of material. Larger libraries may have
> copies of his work. When someone once asked me if I heard of the Child
> Ballads I thought they were referring to ballads for children. Many others
> have made that mstake. :-)
Last I knew it was not hard to buy the Child Ballad collection. I have a
set, and have learned many of them. Lots of great stuff if you're not
attached to happy endings. ;-)
However, far harder to find since it is out of print (at least last I knew),
but more useful to the musician, is Charles Bronson's collection "The
Singing Tradition of the Child Ballads." Child was focused on the words, and
did not collect many tunes; I think there are perhaps 50 in an appendix.
Bronson made an intercontinental effort to collect tunes sung for the
ballads, and some ballads in his book have dozens of different versions.
There was a multivolume hardcover set, and a large paperback abridged
version, which I bought new many years ago. A student of mine found the
paperback a few years ago (originally maybe $30) priced at close to $200. I
have seen the complete hardcover collection in the Cambridge, MA public
library, so others may be fortunate enough to find one to refer to if they
have access to an extensive library.
More info and some links to Child resources online can be found at:
http://www.greenmanreview.com/child_ballads.html
...hmm..on which I see that my once-common Dover edition of the Child
Ballads might now fetch a high price, so scratch what I said above about it
being easy to get.
Beverly
--
Beverly Woods
~ musician ~
~ web design & hosting services ~
http://www.beverlywoods.net
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:29:54 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
have found the playford on amazon. thanks alice
Richard Lewis
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:09:56 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots & English folk music
The Dover edition of Child is no more "only the words" than the
original edition. The Dover is a facsimile of the original; what
tunes there are (55 I think) are in an appendix to the 5th volume.
The Loomis <http://www.loomishousepress.com/child/index.html> has
been corrected, addenda and tunes included in the main body. It does
have more tunes: some have been added "drawn from Child's original
sources" to a total of 60 tunes for Volume 1, the only one that's
available at present. I've seen it, it's very nice; I don't have a
copy so I can't give more detailed information.
An electronic version of the whole of Child's original work, in a
sense an electronic facsimile but also searchable and with lots of
extras, is being published by Heritage Muse,
http://www.heritagemuse.com/.
It's supposed to be out already but I think they've had a few
last-minute glitches, but it will certainly be out soon. And if you
want Bronson, you might have to wait a while, but keep your eye on
Heritage Muse.
The best edition of the Playford _tunes_ (as opposed to the dance
reconstructions) is the one by Jeremy Barlow, which presents and
annotates all the tunes from all the extant editions of Playford's
Dancing Master. In the US it's available from the Country Dance &
Song Society <http://www.cdss.org/>
John Roberts.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:47:09 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots & English folk music
I forgot to add - Peter Barnes has put out a very nice edition of
English Country Dance Tunes called - wait for it - English Country
Dance Tunes. Also available from CDSS. This is a dance musician's
repertoire book, so it has all the Playford tunes currently used for
dancing, and a bunch of others. It is not as comprehensive (or
academic) as Barlow, but on the other hand it's a good performing
edition, and he does add chord progressions.
John Roberts
(English roots musician)
(Though I'm not sure I like "roots" any more than I like "folk")
John Roberts
Singer of traditional songs.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:00:51 -0500
From: Allan Janus <allan.janus _at_ verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots & English folk music
John Roberts wrote:
>
> I forgot to add - Peter Barnes has put out a very nice edition of
> English Country Dance Tunes called - wait for it - English Country
> Dance Tunes. Also available from CDSS. This is a dance musician's
> repertoire book, so it has all the Playford tunes currently used for
> dancing, and a bunch of others. It is not as comprehensive (or
> academic) as Barlow, but on the other hand it's a good performing
> edition, and he does add chord progressions.
>
> John Roberts
> (English roots musician)
> (Though I'm not sure I like "roots" any more than I like "folk")
>
> John Roberts
> Singer of traditional songs.
Such as "Eat Bertha's Mussels" - now traditional around Baltimore, at
least.
Allan Janus
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:20:00 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
In a message dated 1/23/03 8:00:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk writes:
For example, I misrepresented myself via a cheap joke. I like
Morris music
very much and I bought 'Grandson of Morris On' to try and
learn some tunes
for the HG, but was disappointed. Even though it is obviously
recorded with
enormous affection, I felt the bouncy, jaunty spirit of the
Morris dances,
which I love, had been partially deadened by drum kit and
electric guitar:
two things you rarely see in a morris side.
Sorry if I came across as being harsh, Richard. The problem with the
English folk music that I love and play is that I gravitate to the more
progressive arrangements (as in: electric guitars, drum kits, etc.).
I'm sure all types and styles of music (whether it's English,
Hungarian, French, American, German, Italian, etc.) have their "roots"
style, their "pure" style, and their "progressive" style. I don't have
"Grandson of Morris On" yet, but having a lot of Ashley Hutchings' CDs I
would probably like it because it probably is progressive arrangements.
I have several albums by Carthy, Jansch, Renbourne and the
Pentangle. I
like them a lot but I couldn't say it amounted to familiarity
with English
folk music. Rather, it feels like only the tip of the
iceberg. Jansch's
music is very intimate and reflective and I often play his
songs on the
guitar. I am trying to imagine that translating to the hurdy
gurdy . . .
They are a good starting point. And being in England you have more
ready access to them performing than we do here in the U.S. As far as
English folk songs translating to the hurdy gurdy that's a problem we'll
have to encounter :-)
I ordered my HG in D/G because I wanted to play English and Celtic tunes
on it. I found one tune, "She Moves Through The Fair" which seem like it
may work. Well, it better work because I've chosen it as the one song I
want to learn for our upcoming gig in March. :-)
I love to play French music on the hurdy gurdy. It's
wonderful music that
makes the instrument sing. But sometimes I want to play
something English,
so I could join in a session, perhaps. But when that urge
comes over me I
don't know what to play so I make something up. And when I do
that it
sounds more French or American or Irish than anything else,
because that's
what I know.
The bottom line is if you gravitate to French music, then go with it.
You can always learn an English tune here and there as a change.
Jake Conte
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:12:41 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots & English folk music
In a message dated 1/23/2003 7:15:35 AM Central Standard Time,
tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net writes:
<< I think there are perhaps 50 in an appendix. >>
Just did a quick flip through vol. 1 of 5, counted 36 without looking hard.
Hope you're wrong, or the next four volumes will have one melody per. I gave
my Dover away when I saw it was all words. Admittedly, Child's ballads have a
LOT of verses.
Cheers,
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:16:34 EST
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Really cool, really accessible tune site,
Timehttp://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/Info/RRTuneBk/tunebook.html
Enjoy,
Alice
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:50:44 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
thanks for your response Jake, its answered a lot of my questions. Whether
progressive or, er, regressive, I guess we're lucky the area of music we
like is so rich and diverse. Also I guess Hutchings takes the morris to a
wider audience so that can't be bad. She Moved Through the Fair sounds
perfect for the HG: are you familiar with the Irish band Planxty? I've
found some of the slow airs they choose for the pipes work very sweetly
with the D hurdy gurdy.
Like John, I don't like roots or folk as a label. How about rolk? No
perhaps not ;-)
Richard Lewis
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:18:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: david.bawden _at_ btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Richard
The English are just not good
> at promoting their traditional music to themselves or the rest of the world
> and hence in my experience it tends to be the domain of a [relatively] few
> dedicated enthusiasts whose good work is greatly appreciated.
True about the English not promoting their traditional music but it really isn't
the domain of a few dedicated specialists - if you go to a half-decent English
ceilidh you will start to hear what is out there waiting to be discovered.
There are lots of collections of tunes, particularly from the 19th century some of
which have been published (e.g. the Thomas Hardy tunebook; the Lawrence Leadley
tuneboook). And there are even more that are on the web in abc format (search
for the abc home page).
Rather than stick with the Steeleye Spans; Albion Country Dance Bands, why not
explore what some of the newer bands are doing? For example, The Bismarcks;
Stocai; English Country Dance Band; The Posh Band etc. etc.
As for playing English tunes on the Hurdy-gurdy, I find I have difficulty with
a lot of them. French tunes tend to fall under the fingers, wheras English ones
seem to have a much greater range between notes and jump big distances between
notes! I think this is because many of the English tunes are basically for the
fiddle. Some older tunes from Playford or before tend to be easier (you could
try Mike Raven's book of tunes which has a lot of the older tunes, Playford
tunes, and later tunes. I have found a few that I can play in the band I belong
to - some 3:2 hornpipes ( a type of tune that seems ot have fallen out of favour
but is now gaining interest), jigs and polkas. My favourite set is Waterloo and
Down with the French.
I hope this encourages you to explore the tradition!
David
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:56:51 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
In a message dated 1/24/03 6:11:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk writes:
thanks for your response Jake, its answered a lot of my
questions. Whether
progressive or, er, regressive, I guess we're lucky the area
of music we
like is so rich and diverse. Also I guess Hutchings takes the
morris to a
wider audience so that can't be bad. She Moved Through the
Fair sounds
perfect for the HG: are you familiar with the Irish band
Planxty? I've
found some of the slow airs they choose for the pipes work
very sweetly
with the D hurdy gurdy.
In all types of music there will always be debates between "purists"
versus "progressives." Although I lean toward the progressive side, I
still appreciate the "purists" because they are the ones who have blazed
the trail for us. Some people feel that electric instruments are not
"pure," but I feel like whatever it takes to make the non-converts into
converts to our types of music is fine. I wouldn't call it regressive.
Ashley Hutchings will, or should, go down in music history as making a
large contribution to the appreciation and exposure of English folk songs
through his work with being a founding member of Fairport Convention,
Steeleye Span and the various Albion Band lineups.
I am still trying to learn how to play my hurdy gurdy and I noticed that
"She Moved Through The Fair" just seemed very suited to the HG. I like
Planxty very much, along with other Irish bands DeDanaan, Bothy Band and
Boys of the Lough. I'll have to pull out my Planxty albums and have a
listen :-)
Like John, I don't like roots or folk as a label. How about
rolk? No
perhaps not ;-)
John is very talented and I had the pleasure of seeing him perform solo
at Speakeasy in New York City and at a folk music weekend with his then
(?) partner Tony Barrand. This was before he became a hurdy gurdist.
Jake Conte
future virtuoso hurdy gurdist :-)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:13:34 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
In a message dated 1/24/03 2:20:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
david.bawden _at_ btinternet.com writes:
Rather than stick with the Steeleye Spans; Albion Country
Dance Bands, why not explore what some of the newer bands are
doing? For example, The Bismarcks; Stocai; English Country
Dance Band; The Posh Band etc. etc.
Thanks, David, maybe Richard and I can explore the tradition further.
What I should have mentioned about Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span
is that bands like these sometimes take liberties with their arrangements
of traditional music. Even though the songs are traditional, they
sometimes incorporate their own original sections as well. I will try
and check out these other bands you've listed.
An excellent mail order source for English music CDs is Musikfolk Limited
(http://www.musikfolk.com) - the mail order specialists for folk-rock,
folk and celtic CDs & Videos. I recently placed an order with them.
Ian and Stephanie are very nice people.
Jake Conte
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:26:34 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Thanks for the nice words. That was probably the NYC concert when my car
was towed (just before the gig) with my instruments in it. Tony is still
my _current_ partner (34 years and counting). Though him having a real job
and all, I have always done a lot of things solo, and still do.
John.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:29:04 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
At 7:18 PM +0000 1/24/03, david.bawden _at_ btinternet.com wrote:
>3:2 hornpipes ( a type of tune that seems ot have fallen out of
>favour but is now gaining interest), jigs and polkas. My favourite
>set is Waterloo and Down with the French.
David - I know the genre, but not these particular tunes I don't
think, though the titles are enough to pique a definite interest. Are
they recorded somewhere, and/or available as abc files?
Cheers,
John.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:45:12 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] ANNOUNCE: Blowzabella 25 years
FYI
r.t.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 00:50:00 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
In a message dated 1/24/03 5:27:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
anglo _at_ albany.net writes:
Thanks for the nice words. That was probably the NYC concert
when my
car was towed (just before the gig) with my instruments in
it. Tony
is still my _current_ partner (34 years and counting). Though
him
having a real job and all, I have always done a lot of things
solo,
and still do.
John.
The concert was at Speakeasy probably around 1982 or 83. I remember you
having two concertinas (I think you named one Fred, not sure of the
other). You may have also played guitar and banjo that night. It must
have been another time that you got towed. Your version of "Willie's
Lady" really impressed me so much that I learned it as a solo guitar
using an open tuning.
Jake
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 01:15:39 EST
From: Cruikshank44 _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Hi, guys- re: Down with the French, William and I have a version of it
recorded on our Hartwell Horn album, if you're interested...
Felicia.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:24:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: david.bawden _at_ btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
>
> At 7:18 PM 0000 1/24/03, david.bawden _at_ btinternet.com wrote:
> >3:2 hornpipes ( a type of tune that seems ot have fallen out of
> >favour but is now gaining interest), jigs and polkas. My favourite
> >set is Waterloo and Down with the French.
>
> David - I know the genre, but not these particular tunes I don't
> think, though the titles are enough to pique a definite interest. Are
> they recorded somewhere, and/or available as abc files?
>
> Cheers,
> John.
John
Those two tunes are jigs - not sure where we got them from, though
I think at least one is in the Hardy book.
For 3:2 hornpipes, the best collection is in John of the Greeny Cheshire
Way a book of tunes collated by John Offord. Not sure if it is still in
print, but portions of it are available in abc format.
David
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:59:46 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
Has anyone else besides me dipped a toe into the ocean of brilliant tunes
that is the Irish repertoire ? The jigs and reels are a serious learning
curve but work very well on D/G gurdy once the fear of playing right to the
end of the keybox is overcome.
Some examples of tunes that work well are:
Jigs - Tobins Favourite/ Dingle Regatta/ Gander in the pratie hole
Reels - Nine points of Roguery, Cup of Tea, Wind that shakes the Barley.
Slides - Scattery Island slide, Dinny Delaney, Merrily kiss the Quaker's
wife.
These tunes are found in Mel Bay's Irish Session tune book ( isbn
0-7866-2542-2 )
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:14:35 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
>The jigs and reels are a serious learning
curve . . .
The Queen of the Rushes/Paddy Fahy's jig is a nice Irish set, moving from D
to G. Don't know where they are written down but they form the opening
track on Planxty's Words & Music LP.
Richard Lewis
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:28:28 +0000
From: richard.lewis _at_ bookseller.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] musical roots
David
> I hope this encourages you to explore the tradition!
It sure does, thanks. I agree about the fingering but I just figured I
needed practice. One that is not too tricky is the Staines Morris tune. I'm
not sure I would know where to find even a bad English ceilidh though.
Richard
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:45:31 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Off topic. Film on nyckelharpa building
This was passed on to me and I though it might be of interest to some of
you.
Juan
_______________________________________________________
Hi All!
Today I announce the release of my newest interactive DVD film:
Bygg en Nyckelharpa med Sören Åhker
(Build a Nyckelharpa with Sören Åhker)
DVD format (two disks). 4 hours 15 minutes. Swedish language.
The film profiles master nyckelharpa builder Sören Åhker, from Ilsbo,
Hälsingland, as he guides the viewer through every construction procedure
-
from the selection of trees in the forest, to the presentation of a
finished
instrment, to Peter Puma Hedlund who takes the new instrument for a test
drive.
The film is divided into 35 chapters individually accesssed by menu. Each
chapter is full of tight closeups highlighting every aspect of
construction
detail.
I believe this is a major milestone in nyckelharpa history and an
important
documentary which opens up the door to the mysteries of this uniquely
Swedish instrument. Three weeks of filming and a year in the editing
pipeline have resulted in a fine testament to the nyckelharpa maker's
craft.
Further information can be found on my website: www.ritaleydon.com
Med vänlig hälsning,
Rita