I considered the RCC, but I was shocked and appalled when I found out that they allow Charismatic/pentecostal styled worship services. I just don't understand why they would do this. To me, this style of "worship" always seemed crazy and animalistic.

I was just really shocked, and I never imagined in my wildest dreams that the RCC would have such a thing. That pretty much destroyed any chances I have of converting to the RCC.

You are being formally warned for using profanity in this post. Your warning level will last 14 days. Please read oc.net rules again. You can find it above linked in the toolbar. If wish to dispute this warning plese contact Fr. Chris -Username! Section Moderator

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 10:44:23 PM by username! »

Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

Hi Fanfou2! Welcome to OC.net, and may God bless you and guide you on your journey to the Orthodox faith. I am on that same journey, as an ex-Roman Catholic who at long last was blessed with the opportunity to began attending the Coptic Orthodox Church a few months ago.

I must say, I was similarly shocked when I found out about the existence of so-called Charismatic Catholic groups. Luckily, without realizing it at the time I had been baptized into a relatively traditional Roman Catholic parish. It still used the Novus Ordo, but I had never even heard of Charismatic Catholic movements until I moved to another state and began attending a local church that seemed open to such deviations (without being a "Charismatic Catholic" community, thankfully). When I found out about the Charismatics, I immediately went to see my priest for some sort of explanation. He said that they are mainly a development of the 1960s-70s era changes in the modes of worship deemed acceptable in the Western Church, and that he personally doesn't really understand why they're acceptable, either. When I asked him then about some of the, eh...not normative practices in the parish he was currently in, he said he didn't like them either, but the senior priest saw them as a boon to attracting and keeping the youth (this was in a college town).

I'm still not really sure what to think. I preferred then, and suspect I would prefer now, more traditional worship, though I am glad that I do not have to worry about this specific problem in the Coptic church (the Coptic Church has its own problems, particularly in the lands of immigration, but they are not of the same type as the RC charismatics, nor do they receive the sanction that those groups have received from the RC).

When you're as big as the Catholic church, stuff creeps in. Orthodoxy has been culturally insulated from these kinds of shenanigans for a while, but I suspect as global Pentecostalism really takes hold (and it is certainly on the way) we will see more of it, perhaps not in the liturgy but in syncronistic home devotions. As is, we're not immune to esoteric bullcrap.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 08:02:09 PM by Agabus »

Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Ahhhhh! Ahhhh! Vassula Ryden! Get it away! Gah...just seeing her name in the link makes me shudder.

She was videotaped some time ago doing her...thing...in a Coptic Church (I can't remember where) where she apparently misrepresented herself as Orthodox to gain some sympathies of the presiding priests (as I suppose she had already gained enough notoriety among the EO and RC to be persona non grata among them). It was the single most horrific thing I have ever seen go on in an Orthodox church. I posted a link to the video on a Coptic message board in hopes of getting some kind of explanation and, boy...let's just say the patience of the Copts does not extend to tolerating such nonsense! Would that the Romans would develop the same intolerance. (Though to their credit, some Catholic leaders have come out against Ms. Ryden in refreshingly explicit terms. How that squares with the acceptance of Charismatic movements in Catholicism, I don't know.)

My mom has been to a Charismatic "Mass" a few times. She said that at some point they all go up for a laying on of hands to receive the "Holy Spirit." She said that she was too afraid to go up because others who went up were convulsing and falling over. When I mocked what she was describing, she told me that I was blaspheming the Holy Spirit and was putting my soul in danger.

Some Catholic apologists do a pretty good job of defending their faith in light of all of the terrible liturgical abuses in the Roman Catholic Church today. I have to wonder, though, what they say about stuff like this which is clearly not the work of the Holy Spirit and yet is officially allowed by their hierarchy.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 09:15:55 PM by William »

Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

The Catholic church should not be tolerating this stuff... Convulsing, speaking gibberish and passing out are not charismata either in the Bible or Apostolic tradition. Where did people ever even get the idea?

I considered the RCC, but I was shocked and appalled when I found out that they allow Charismatic/pentecostal styled worship services. I just don't understand why they would do this. To me, this style of "worship" always seemed crazy and animalistic.

I was just really shocked, and I never imagined in my wildest dreams that the RCC would have such a thing. That pretty much destroyed any chances I have of converting to the RCC.

Anyone else have thoughts about Charismatic Catholics?

Your opening post interests me because of the large interdenominational charismatic community, mostly Catholic, about 10 miles from my Messianic Jewish synagogue. I don't speak in tongues, but I've found charismatics to be the most dedicated, outgoing Catholic laypeople I know.

For instance, take the regular protests outside our local Planned Parenthood. All the Cross-carrying protesters are charismatics from the community. Nearly every Bible-toting Catholic I've met is charismatic. If there's any weirdness to their worship, they make up for it by their straight walk in the outside world.

I changed your post to black, red is more reserved for moderators on oc.net, as is green and blue. -username! section moderator

« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 03:25:20 AM by username! »

Logged

"Iron sharpens iron, and a man sharpens the countenance of his friend" (Proverbs 27:17 OSB).

To be fair and balanced, there are ALOT of RC and EO folk I know that drop money on those protestant tv evangelist shows. I have no idea why, other than the notion of "it is all the same God just a different way of saying it," and I get that notion because that's what they tell me as to why and I tell them to support their own church not someone who is on tv begging for money to fuel his jet. So support of evangelical charasmatics is far deeper than just going to chapel and shakin' your tail feather and speaking in babbles like a one years old.

The Catholic church should not be tolerating this stuff... Convulsing, speaking gibberish and passing out are not charismata either in the Bible or Apostolic tradition. Where did people ever even get the idea?

Working backwards, the idea behind passing out is that the presence of God is so strong that the individual cannot stand it and "become as dead men" this sort of thing is sprinkled throughout scripture, think for example of the Roman guards on Jesus tomb come Sunday morning. So it's not something so much that one does or someone does to you as something that just happens.

As to the speaking gibberish, while I cannot say I necessarily believe it all to be genuine, I know a couple who in a time of need were visited by some charismatic types who asked to pray for them. After the charismatics left the husband turned to his wife and commented about the one of the charismatics praying in nothing but gibberish while the other prayed, in English. The wife replied that she heard no gibberish from that person only things like "thank you Jesus", "Praise you Jesus", etc. So what does that mean...hmmm?

Regarding convulsions I really don't know and can't say it appeals to me at all but given the other two points I'd like to discuss and reject, or not, based on understanding rather assumption. That's just me though, and I'm no authority to be sure.

Logged

Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.

Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?

Well, for starters, I do not believe that the physical convulsions and glosslalia are the work of the Holy Spirit. God, the Holy Spirit, is a the Spirt of order, not disorder. And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.

All of that being said, I have known some very devout Catholic Christians who were invovled in this movement, and who were otherwise very orthodox (little 'o') so I am choose not to fight this particular battle. Rather, I will continue to support and endorse a move towards more traditional piety liturgy. Hopefully as we return to our roots, this "Charismatic" nonsense will simply fade away. I would like to point out that there are some encouraging trends, at least here in NM. Most of the members of the Charistimatic Renewel that I know are headed for or are already at retirment age. From what I can tell, the young people are more attracted to the traditional faith than to anything else.

Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

I really don't think about them at all. I'm sure personally it would not be my cup of tea since I had quite a bit of exposure to various charismatic and pentecostal denominations in my Protestant days. I more than got my gut full of it then.

I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

I agree, and I don't think that his assessment is in line with the traditional teachings of the church, or at least the conventional reaction of the rest of the Orthodox world, which has been a unilateral rejection.

I know that there are several books that deal with this phenomenon from an Orthodox perspective, so perhaps people can post some links. Someone posted a newer book with an Orthodox response to Pentecostalism, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called. Maybe one of you remembers, because it looked pretty promising.

I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

From my memory, he was hardly equating them, IIRC he doesn't think people did any such thing on Pentecost, but rather everyone heard according to their their own tongue.

I would bet on the former and take medium odds on the latter, so don't hold me to the last statement.

I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

I agree, and I don't think that his assessment is in line with the traditional teachings of the church, or at least the conventional reaction of the rest of the Orthodox world, which has been a unilateral rejection.

I know that there are several books that deal with this phenomenon from an Orthodox perspective, so perhaps people can post some links. Someone posted a newer book with an Orthodox response to Pentecostalism, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called. Maybe one of you remembers, because it looked pretty promising.

How can there be anything approaching a traditional teaching of the Church regarding phenomena that are quite recent? I am speaking directly to the American Pentecostal various "charismatic" experiences.

Frankly, shooting from the hip, 99% of it is mass hysteria, group hypnosis, auto-hypnosis, whatever, but I would be careful to say that the Holy Spirit cannot bring someone to the Truth in this manner.

I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

I agree, and I don't think that his assessment is in line with the traditional teachings of the church, or at least the conventional reaction of the rest of the Orthodox world, which has been a unilateral rejection.

I know that there are several books that deal with this phenomenon from an Orthodox perspective, so perhaps people can post some links. Someone posted a newer book with an Orthodox response to Pentecostalism, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called. Maybe one of you remembers, because it looked pretty promising.

How can there be anything approaching a traditional teaching of the Church regarding phenomena that are quite recent? I am speaking directly to the American Pentecostal various "charismatic" experiences.

Frankly, shooting from the hip, 99% of it is mass hysteria, group hypnosis, auto-hypnosis, whatever, but I would be careful to say that the Holy Spirit cannot bring someone to the Truth in this manner.

Agreed. While these actions are certainly the fruit of error, it would be wrong to say that the Holy Spirit cannot break through to Charismatics anyway.

Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Frankly, shooting from the hip, 99% of it is mass hysteria, group hypnosis, auto-hypnosis, whatever, but I would be careful to say that the Holy Spirit cannot bring someone to the Truth in this manner.

Well that isn't exactly a point in their favor, considering that the Holy Spirit can bring someone to truth through just about anything, including through false religions.

I considered the RCC, but I was shocked and appalled when I found out that they allow Charismatic/pentecostal styled worship services. I just don't understand why they would do this. To me, this style of "worship" always seemed crazy and animalistic.

I was just really shocked, and I never imagined in my wildest dreams that the RCC would have such a thing. That pretty much destroyed any chances I have of converting to the RCC.

Anyone else have thoughts about Charismatic Catholics?

My girlfriend's mother participates in this and my girlfriend and I both think it is crazy. You don't even have to bring up the religious reasons behind it, the speaking in tongues part especially seems very demonic to me.

I considered the RCC, but I was shocked and appalled when I found out that they allow Charismatic/pentecostal styled worship services. I just don't understand why they would do this. To me, this style of "worship" always seemed crazy and animalistic.

I was just really shocked, and I never imagined in my wildest dreams that the RCC would have such a thing. That pretty much destroyed any chances I have of converting to the RCC.

Anyone else have thoughts about Charismatic Catholics?

My girlfriend's mother participates in this and my girlfriend and I both think it is crazy. You don't even have to bring up the religious reasons behind it, the speaking in tongues part especially seems very demonic to me.

What they do is not what happened on Pentecost, but certainly probably something similar to what was going on in Corinth. St. Paul doesn't call them out for being demonic.

I ain't saying these folks are the arc of the Truth and God knows Corinth wasn't St. Paul's twinkle in his eye, but again I think people should be careful about full out writing this stuff off, since something similar is attested to in Scripture and well, not the best way to evangelize.

St. Paul didn't tell the Athenians they were full of it. He took what they had and filled it out for them within the message of Christi crucified.

Seems to me that is exactly what Fr. Thom is doing after speaking with and trying understand people who believed they were genuinely moved by the Holy Spirit.

I guess, every podcast on AFR could be called Here's is how we are right and you wrong, but I don't think it would be very effective.

And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.

They should stop encouraging it. I'd even go so far as to say that they ought to condemn it as spiritually dangerous.

Yeah, because the Orthodox Church is so good at immediately quashing all "pretender" churches and splinter groups.

Your response seems like you think that it is so easy to address this issue. Every church is struggling with it. The Catholics I know dismiss it as a fad, although there is bigger fish to fry than a small group of charismatic Catholics. Frankly, growing up, we thought they were freaks.

Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

When you're as big as the Catholic church, stuff creeps in. Orthodoxy has been culturally insulated from these kinds of shenanigans for a while, but I suspect as global Pentecostalism really takes hold (and it is certainly on the way) we will see more of it, perhaps not in the liturgy but in syncronistic home devotions. As is, we're not immune to esoteric bullcrap.

I'll just repeat this (good posts in this thread, Agabus, btw).

It's a case of dictating to other denominations, over and over, what our Church isn't immune to and certainly hasn't solved itself.

Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

What does he do? The only thing obvious from his webpage is that he gives inane, Protestantized sermons. Does he do glossolalia or convulsions?

In a liturgical setting, as far as I can tell, no... But, to paraphrase an author that many evangelicals-turned-Orthodox like to quote, take that website and go further out and deeper in. The more you read the more charismatic-Pentecostal material you will find. And teaching it is just as bad as practicing it if it's heresy. (I reserve judgment.) I am not sure what he does outside of a liturgical setting.

Quote

Have Orthodox bishops and patriarchs endorsed his message as vital for the Church like RC popes have with their charismatics?

You're changing the game now. You said RC bishops should condemn it. Now you're saying, "At least we haven't endorsed it."

There is a difference, my friend.

Quote

Is the situation really analogous?

Not in every jot and tittle, but I try not to throw any stones if I am not without sin, even if my sin is lesser. I have read the writing in the dirt, or the Internet. Whatever.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 07:24:07 PM by Agabus »

Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

From my memory, he was hardly equating them, IIRC he doesn't think people did any such thing on Pentecost, but rather everyone heard according to their their own tongue.

I would bet on the former and take medium odds on the latter, so don't hold me to the last statement.

Frankly, shooting from the hip, 99% of it is mass hysteria, group hypnosis, auto-hypnosis, whatever, but I would be careful to say that the Holy Spirit cannot bring someone to the Truth in this manner.

Allow me to piggyback on this by also asking how do we go about limiting what the Holy Spirit can do and how he acts? Have not some of the fools for Christ been known to do very odd things that we would find most unsettling were we to witness them ourselves, yet with the majority consensus of the church being that ultimately they were acting in a manner that was led of God?

Logged

Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.

Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.

I considered the RCC, but I was shocked and appalled when I found out that they allow Charismatic/pentecostal styled worship services. I just don't understand why they would do this. To me, this style of "worship" always seemed crazy and animalistic.

I was just really shocked, and I never imagined in my wildest dreams that the RCC would have such a thing. That pretty much destroyed any chances I have of converting to the RCC.

Anyone else have thoughts about Charismatic Catholics?

I went to the crussio which used to be for lapsed Catholics to get em back serious into the church (and still is). It started in Spain, so I imagine it was more orthodox back in those pre-VII days. Now the Charismatic movement has pretty much taken it over. Not to get into details about the crussio, I got physically sick when I went there. The whole time I was there, I really didnt like it and it never grew on me. There was a Eastern Catholic church across the way (Holy Ghost in Cleveland, Oh which was closed I did not Know) but I longed to go to the domes while I was there. I thought I got sick because of exposure to lots of guys. They had one of those re-energizing things a month later in Lorain and I started to be sick again before I even entered in. I said to myself "Thats it Im done with this crap. I despise it and Im not going just to make others feel better."

I think the whole movement is definitely heretical if not satanic. Theres lots of Roman Catholics who feel its an abomination, particularly the more orthodox/traditional ones. So you arent the only one, and I can see why it would deter you. First the NO(written by protestants only as banal as they somehow contrive) now this and abuse scandals etc... The Church is being compromised from within. Lord have mercy. Its maddening and tragic at the same time.