lilangel wrote:IMO The 2 tug focus is the problem with this thread.The 2 toy method is pretty antiquated and this future dog owners would be best served if this thread were erased. Using one toy to initiate the out of the possessed toy is not conducive to learning the out. It takes time, experience and timing 1 learn this method properly, 2) to wean off this method properly and it is something most people won't or don't do. Once people start using this method, they tend to think it is just so much easier to wave a second toy in the dogs face to get the release of the first toy.

However, If they taught the out with one toy from the start, the process would actually be MUCH MUCH faster and easier to train than the 2 toy method. Its too bad that this thread is so long and has had so much apparent influence over those who have read it. I'd just as soon refer people to the one toy method and get dogs that know out and will out without conflict, on command because you requested it, period. This method is 100% hands-off and positive motivation and if you ever leave your second toy at home, you don't have to find a stick, or use your nice new jacket as a replacement to get your dog to give you her ball or tug. But I guess to each his/her own.

Well, we generally don't erase threads just because some advice is antiquated. It's more or less an open forum, within the limits of civil discourse. For deleting outdated info, we'd want a different format, something like a Wiki perhaps (with its edit wars and other limitations... nothing's perfect.)

Lilangel, how about you give the details of the one-toy method you're talking about, or give a link where interested readers can learn more about how to do it?

I taught my dog the "out" command with a two-ball method (Michael Ellis does this same method with tugs, it's nothing new). Now he will drop anything on command. I have no idea if he'll "out" on a decoy, but we are no where near that kind of control yet so we'll cross that brdige when we get there

Very interesting I didn't read the whole thing about to page 3 and the final page. I will re-read this later.

I trained my dog with the one ball method though it was a "drop it" command rather than "out". Using a Kong which I still believe is filled with cocaine or something else very addictive. She would play until i deemed necessary to stop for her safety. She would go till the point of collapsing.

But all I did, not being a professional trainer in any regards. was to throw the ball and she would bring it back quickly. Normally she would give it back with "drop it" or on her own, because she knew the chase would be on again. Though sometimes she would come back and do the chomping thing and not give it back. Which I never correlated with stress, I just thought she was being a bitch. But when this happened I would just ignore her, she might be resting her chin in my lap chomping down on the Kong. Eventually she would let loose usually not long after I started to ignore her. Than sit and wait for the normally quick re throw. Sometimes I would just grab it out of her mouth (with a struggle depending on her stress level) whatever it took to keep the game going.

I hope this makes sense, I'm just kind of babbling. I'm also enjoying the memories of good times. If you consider crying like a baby good times.

MikeInTacoma wrote:Well, we generally don't erase threads just because some advice is antiquated. It's more or less an open forum, within the limits of civil discourse. For deleting outdated info, we'd want a different format, something like a Wiki perhaps (with its edit wars and other limitations... nothing's perfect.)

Lilangel, how about you give the details of the one-toy method you're talking about, or give a link where interested readers can learn more about how to do it?

You could change the name at least Seeing an entire ego thread in BIG HUGE capitals started by that psycho every time I come in here is off putting <-- Ok that is a joke so don't get all riled up. But seriously... she's a psycho so please change the name of the thread.

I'm pretty sure I posted the entire 1 ball process in this thread somewhere already and I know it has been discussed on the forum before, if not by me than by someone.

MikeInTacoma wrote:Well, we generally don't erase threads just because some advice is antiquated. It's more or less an open forum, within the limits of civil discourse. For deleting outdated info, we'd want a different format, something like a Wiki perhaps (with its edit wars and other limitations... nothing's perfect.)

Lilangel, how about you give the details of the one-toy method you're talking about, or give a link where interested readers can learn more about how to do it?

You could change the name at least Seeing an entire ego thread in BIG HUGE capitals started by that psycho every time I come in here is off putting <-- Ok that is a joke so don't get all riled up. But seriously... she's a psycho so please change the name of the thread.

Wow... Now I'm in the odd position of defending an alleged psycho from a proclaimed joker. How does this happen? I've met Jessup exactly once, by chance. I don't know whether she's an egomaniacal psycho or not; she struck me as relatively normal, compassionate, and wise. She took five minutes to give me some words that helped me adopt a different mental framework when I badly needed one, and I ended up not putting down my favorite dog. Whatever her flaws, I am grateful to her for that.

You have a point about the BIG HUGE CAPITALS though. And we do sometimes rename threads when it seems appropriate. She's not been a member here for some time, and renaming it may be appropriate. I'll confer with the other mods.

lilangel wrote:I'm pretty sure I posted the entire 1 ball process in this thread somewhere already and I know it has been discussed on the forum before, if not by me than by someone.

Simple and clean; I like it. Interestingly, this is the method I eventually adopted with Razzamatazz and the flirt pole. The other dogs learned pretty quickly with two flirt poles; but Razz simply learned to be quick... But with one flirt pole and more patience than I realized I had, he learned to Drop It quite nicely. Funny how people sometimes do the right thing, after exhausting all other options.

That helped me with Dakota's out soooo much. And I'm already seeing small improvements with Alice, she just takes a looong time on the wait process.

I've never tried it myself for an out, but a friend would hold treats in her fist and place it out, holding it there whilst the dog went at it, licking, something biting, etc. When the dog moved away she would mark it and reward by dropping the treat on the ground, gradually increasing duration. I do this with my dogs to teach them not to mug your hand, but she started adding a cue "Off" and one day while playing tug she accidentally said off instead of her out cue, and the dog let go. She said she used it on her next dog and had results.

I do know people who did that for teaching puppies not to mouth, but not for a toy. I wonder if it actually works well.

the method described works very well both of them, what also worked with my dogs is giving them a ball while on a lead then get some treats like peanut butter, meat etc. really high value treats and show the dog while he has something like a ball in his mouth when he drops it, you say ''out'' then repeat until he understand letting go works, then go ahead and learn the dog he does not always gets food when he's letting go of the ball or other item but play time.

My Ruby is very casual and sometimes slow about out/give and I have been starting to work a bit on trying to quicken that up. If I maintain any back-pressure at all - even if I look away acting disinterested - she will not let go and will also sometimes start shaking it. Other times, she will release but with a bit of a chatter as if there is internal strife about letting go. She will do it as instructed a small percentage of time.

--Does step #2 above mean let go or go limp?--Also, we taught 'give' early on for release (I hate that word but DH started using it so we stuck with it) - I use it per above but it doesn't always result in compliance (if I maintain any tension). Should I try a different word? Stop using that word for awhile?

It means go limp. Don't let go. You could stop using any verbal cues or prompts until she is releasing reliably, then install a new cue if you want after she is performing the behavior with regularity. The teeth chattering probably just indicates arousal, nothing more. The whole thing about "chonking" or "chomping" whatever Jessup calls it, is... I don't know what it is... but her interpretation is not helpful. Dogs may chomp or chonk on their toys during play for any number of reasons.

If you are not making progress you can always clicker train the release. It's not what I do but it can be beneficial. Different strokes for different folks. If someone hasn't already written it out on one of these pages, I will be happy to.