Fellas! If this is the look you get when you’re sexing your lady up, you might be doing it wrong

By David Futrelle

The “involuntarily” celibate fellows who’ve branded themselves incels may not be getting any sex, but that doesn’t stop them from thinking, and theorizing, about sex, much in the way someone blind from birth might theorize about what it’s like to see.

Over on the Incels.co forums, the regulars recently found themselves in a debate on the apparently controversial (amongst incels) proposition “Does Female pleasure matter?”

The fellow asking the question, an Incels.co regular with more than 400 comments to his name, feels that the only correct answer is “no.”

“I’ve been thinking, objectively the purpose for sex is to reproduce,” Salutextm began.

Men essentially enjoy this since they need to climax for reproduction to happen in light of the fact that the nerves that make sex feel pleasurable are in the head of the Penis. So a male’s pleasure is truly essential and will happen more often than not.

Ok, so far so good. We need to reproduce to keep our species going, so evolution has evidently designed sex to be fun so we’ll do it.

But I couldn’t think of any natural reason for the female orgasm or female pleasure.

Wait, what? Putting aside the fact that women do tend to enjoy sex at least as much as men, rendering the entire debate moot, why wouldn’t it be evolutionarily important for women to enjoy sex just like men? After all, don’t they have to agree to sex for sex to occur?

Oh, wait, I think I know where he’s going here.

That is to say, women don’t need to experience any pleasure for reproduction to occur. They simply must be there and take the man’s seed.

That … only makes sense if you assume that evolution has designed men to be rapists and women to be rape victims.

Female pleasure is as of now, harder to accomplish than male due to placement of nerve endings (clitoris) and hormonal differences (testosterone)

Well, I’m no expert on hormones or nerve endings but my informal studies and, er, fieldwork, have suggested to me that female sexual pleasure isn’t some weird unattainable thing seen rarely in nature, like the snow leopard or a Trump supporter who isn’t a racist.

So for what reason do people feel like its the man’s fault for a woman not getting off when their pleasure isn’t to be prioritized to begin with? Naturally, their pleasure doesn’t even matter. Or at least I couldn’t find any reason as to why it would

And with that attitude, you’re probably never going to see female sexual pleasure in the wild.

“Do women subject themselves to things they don’t want to do for some ulterior motive?” he asked, baffled.

Why else would women engage with men if they do not find most men physically sexually attractive … or barely receive any physical sexual pleasure in most acts involving their man?

Not all the commenters on Incels.co agreed with Salutextm’s hypotheses.

“All a Woman wants is to be fucked hard by Chad and then ignored,” declared IAmJAcksBrokenHeart.

A commenter called Huntedbyhate went even further, suggesting that the fact that women do feel sexual pleasure was really the heart of the problem. His proposed “solution” to this alleged problem was rather gruesome.

“I wish that all females had their clits cut off so they couldn’t experience pleasure,” he wrote. “More foids for us and fewer for Chad.”

It’s not altogether clear why he thinks the “foids” — that is, women — who’ve had their genitals forcibly mutilated would flock to the men who had actually called for this horrific practice. But that’s incel logic for you.

Despite these critics, a significant portion of the commenters seemed to agree that female pleasure doesn’t matter, or at the very least it shouldn’t.

“Their pleasure doesn’t matter,” asserted Danzai. “Foids were made to make babies, not enjoy themselves in it.”

“Why would the pleasure of a toilet matter?” added Insomniac.

Once again, the regulars on Incels.co have made it clear why the women who are refusing to have sex with them — which would be all women, everywhere, on planet earth — are making the right decision.

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I admit that sometimes I’m not really focused on my own pleasure because sometimes I’m just in the mood to make Mr. Parasol really really happy. But he believes in returning the favor, so it all balances out in the end.

Not gonna lie, I have a really hard time having an orgasm. A lot of time when it’s just me I can’t even get myself there every time. One of the things that made my love so amazing to me is that he see’s that as a challenge and never stops trying even if I just can’t get there every time we make love. Other people I had been with got really discourage when I couldn’t get there and a lot of times I felt like faking it. So yeah it matters to guys as well.

WWTH, I read – and I don’t know if it’s accurate – that the muscle movement of the orgasm helps the sperm along its way, keeps it from just dripping out. Also, when you are trying to conceive they tell you to stay on your back for a while preferably with your legs up to keep the sperm in there. Presumably sticking around for the orgasm is a reason to stay on your back, making conception more likely.

The incels are not wrong (did I really just say that?) that a better design would have positioned the clitoris so that it would receive more stimulation during vaginal penetration. But then most dudes have tongues and fingers, so… And most dudes also have imaginations. Incels, not so much.

Well, you probably already know that you are not alone in this. I basically never did with my last/only partner. In theory I didn’t want to put too much pressure on him (I am on the anti-depression/anxiety medication which has bad sexual side effects so I knew it was really going to be a challenge) thinking that it would just result in such frustration for us and kill the mood even more. However over time since I didn’t put ANY pressure he basically gave up trying altogether. Looking back on it, even if it didn’t succeed every time emotionally I wanted him to try a little bit for me, but I didn’t know how to ask for this. It was a huge problem and for me was a big part of why we broke up. The sad part is, I’d like to say I learned something from it but if it came up again with another partner I’m not sure I would have a better idea of what to say to him.

Also, I thought that men can have an orgasms without having the semen come out? Wouldn’t that negate the “men need to have an orgasm for reproduction” theory? I’m not sure how it all works but it sounds like major BS to me.

Any heterosexual woman who is trying to get pregnant knows that having lots of sex helps this actually happen. A woman who enjoys having sex with her male partner is probably going to have an easier time getting pregnant if there are no other extenuating circumstances (fertility issues).

I remember seeing a Discovery channel type documentary with actual footage of the inside of a woman’s vaginal canal and her cervix showing the contractions during orgasm. The cervix will actually dip itself into the deposited semen…so YEAH…female pleasure has a purpose.

Disregarding an intimate partner’s pleasure is a very effective way of guaranteeing that partner will not want to have another sexual experience with you. Comparing a woman to a toilet will guarantee that you will never view a woman as anything but an object to shit on.

In Japanese, “肉便器” (niku benki, literally “meat toilet”) is a derogatory term for a promiscuous woman. It’s used a fair bit in hentai and erotic games, and while this might not necessarily be the origin of the use of the word “toilet” to describe women in the post in question, the incel community often seems to overlap with toxic geekdom and anime fandom quite a bit.

@Knitting Cat Lady

I respectfully disagree. Toilets and sewage tanks are connected, after all 😛

I’d assume “toilet” because you pee and shit into toilets, and (theoretically, if you’re an incel) ejaculate into women, meaning that women are nothing but a receptacle for a waste product of the male body.

Pardon me, I need to go scrub the inside of my mind out now for having figured that one out. At least this view doesn’t treat semen as liquid fucking gold?

>>>>>The “involuntarily” celibate fellows who’ve branded themselves incels may not be getting any sex, but that doesn’t stop them from thinking, and theorizing, about sex, much in the way someone blind from birth might theorize about what it’s like to see.

Oh, when I was a virgin I thought and theorized a lot about what sex is like, and I’m sure most virgins do the same. But I did it *privately*, in my own head, and didn’t publicly proclaim myself an *expert* on sex.

As about evolution supporting forced sex or ignoring female pleasure – technically true in *some* species, but then again in some species the female eats the male after mating, and I don’t see incels suggesting that. It is certainly *not* true in primates or humans.

>>>>or a Trump supporter who isn’t a racist.

I am a Trump supporter. He obviously knows his job: the economy is doing fine, and America’s word and influence is once again taken seriously abroad both by its allies and by its enemies. What is more, Trump wisely stays out of foreign wars he can avoid.

True, the chattering classes (journalists, academics, etc.) cannot stand him, but academics and journalists – in the USA and abroad – are, in effect, life’s incels: they claim expertise in numerous fields without ever experiencing them. Most political science professors couldn’t be elected dog catcher.

Like incels’ outrage at “normies”, journalists and professors’ outrage at Trump is due to him doing well while ignoring or despising them and their theories. Both incels and professors fear this means they wasted their life becoming “experts” about something they do not, in fact, know anything about, and never did themselves. They’re right.

I admit that sometimes I’m not really focused on my own pleasure because sometimes I’m just in the mood to make Mr. Parasol really really happy. But he believes in returning the favor, so it all balances out in the end.

Actually, this is my preferred formula for sex. I mean, I want it to be enjoyable for all parties all the time, but I like focussing on giving my partner orgasms and the alternate periods where I’m relaxing and someone is focussed on my pleasure means that I don’t have to feel guilty for taking my mind off of what will maximize their pleasure and can enjoy my own pleasure to the fullest.

Even times when mutual, simultaneous orgasm happens doesn’t mean that one person enjoys their orgasm exactly equally with the other. I think it’s great if people have permission to take turns relaxing into pleasure and turns focussed on giving pleasure.

This is not, of course, my recipe that everyone else must/should follow. But it’s definitely my preferred recipe in my own relationships.

Yeah I get that. You always want someone to try. I know I’m not alone with this issue but I got to admit it does make me feel really insecure about it. Like there is something wrong with me that I can’t do this even on my own. I have to do things a very specific way to get an orgasm and it really annoys me. I do really wish I wasn’t like this but I’m trying to accept it.

Also, I thought that men can have an orgasms without having the semen come out? Wouldn’t that negate the “men need to have an orgasm for reproduction” theory? I’m not sure how it all works but it sounds like major BS to me.

I mean once a man gets a vasectomy he can still have an orgasm or no man would ever get one.

Yes, men are capable of having a “dry orgasm” in which they orgasm without ejaculating. So, yes, they can reach climax and still not be leading to any possibility of reproduction.

Also, semen and sperm are not the same thing. Semen is the fluid that contains the sperm in suspension and is made in the seminal vesicles, not the testes. So, when a man has a vasectomy and the vas deferens that connects to the testes is cut, that just means that sperm doesn’t get into the semen any more, not that the man doesn’t produce or ejaculate semen. After a vasectomy nothing really changes except that there isn’t sperm in the semen, but sperm only makes up a tiny amount of a man’s semen anyway. Men still orgasm and ejaculate as before.

The incels are not wrong (did I really just say that?) that a better design would have positioned the clitoris so that it would receive more stimulation during vaginal penetration. But then most dudes have tongues and fingers, so… And most dudes also have imaginations. Incels, not so much.

Incels also seem to have a bizarre belief that unless the penis is central to every sexual activity, it’s a waste of time. They seem to particularly hate cunnilingus, presumably because they can’t imagine it as being anything other than revolting, and what possible use can a sex act be that gives her pleasure? The notion that it might also be exceptionally pleasurable for the giver as well as the receiver (not least because it’s one of the only sexual activities that stimulates all five senses directly, simultaneously and overwhelmingly) doesn’t seem to compute at all.

Many years ago (we’re talking the last century with over a decade still to run), I had a relationship with a woman who made it very clear that she didn’t want to be penetrated vaginally, or at least not any deeper than the introitus. Whether this was because she was saving herself for her husband or suffered from a physical condition such as vaginismus, I don’t know – but she was adamantly clear about what her boundaries were, and I respected them.

Not least because it made surprisingly little difference to what was otherwise a terrific sex life. Indeed, the fact that the old in-out was off the menu forced us to come up with imaginative alternatives – and the more or less total elimination of any chance of her getting pregnant (my biggest sex-related fear for a great many years) was a wonderfully disinhibiting factor as well.

“The purpose of sex is reproduction”, but you don’t see incels moaning about how much they look forward to becoming fathers and how unfair it is that they’re prevented from having children. Statements like that are just a fig leaf for their desire to hurt women.

They talk about sex in such crassly mechanical and transactional terms, I doubt they get much pleasure from it either. It’s just a way of keeping score.

Let say persons with a penis, i think it is more accurate. But, yes, orgasm not needed for the semen to spill out, even if they are often linked. It is quite clear with “night pollution” (wet dreams ? Which are not necessarily pink dreams) and premature ejaculation. And this is also why, as you certainly can not say a person with a vagina enjoyed being raped because the person was “wet here”, you can not say a person with a penis enjoyed being raped because ejaculation. Sperm release is just the result of some neural signals, which are quite hard to control.

Gahhh! I can’t decide whether this is depressing, nauseating, or enraging me. What’s the probably German word that encompasses all three reactions? There are people out there who actually think this way, and actually log in to a site, write this stuff down, and then hit “send” so that everyone else knows what they think, instead of keeping the ugly to themselves. These men must know how revolting they are. I guess that explains their deep, bitter self loathing. But why live like that? Why not do something, anything, that will make the bitter go away?

I mean once a man gets a vasectomy he can still have an orgasm or no man would ever get one.

Speaking from first-hand experience, there’s very little practical difference: a man post-vasectomy will still ejaculate seminal fluid, and it looks broadly similar in terms of consistency and volume (maybe fractionally less, but not much), the crucial difference being the absence of live spermatozoa. But the only way you can be certain of this difference is with the aid of a microscope.

I’d never really spent much time in my life thinking about sex dolls, but if I had, I’d always have assumed that they were, all things considered, a force for good. I mean, why go for a full sex doll when you could just buy a fleshlight? The answer that came to mind was that you can’t really cuddle with a fleshlight. Sex dolls, on the other hand, I could see as being like adult teddy bears, probably good for people with very strong intimacy issues, and so on.

Then I started reading WHTM and found out there are people who make a living just from repairing sex dolls whose owners have used them too violently, and came to the conclusion that I really, really don’t understand how some men view sex.

Totally off topic, but I want to predict a future post. There is one moment in ENDGAME that is certain to set off the usual suspects, and we will be getting a lot of toxic tweets and Reddit posts about it. I will not describe it, but I think I can quote the relevant line without it being much of a spoiler:

Yeah, I didn’t need a man present to get pregnant (thank you donors) and all the best sex I have had has been non procreative, so yet again 10/10 for lack of imagination and basic humanity you incel fucks.

The way these people view women is just vile and it’s a special kind of evil to those who think women incapable of feeling pleasure (and not deserving any if they could) but still consider sex a human right for themselves.

Time for them to relabel themselves, because it all sounds pretty voluntary after all.

It’s totally voluntary. The absolute barest minimum requirement for making yourself attractive to the opposite sex is to start treating them as actual human beings with interesting viewpoints and their own agency.

If you’re not even prepared to surmount that infinitesimally tiny hurdle, indeed, if you underscore your refusal to compromise by using deliberately othering terms like “femoids” then you’re celibate entirely by choice.

Look at Elliot Rodger – I read every page of his “manifesto”, and at no point did I see him actually making a proactive effort to talk to women or engage with them on any meaningful level. It was apparently their failure to recognise that the guy sitting in the far corner of the café giving off “don’t come near me” vibes was in fact a “supreme gentleman” that led to his killing spree, despite the fact that this interpretation required them to be psychic.

I’m reminded of the Anti-Sex League in “Nineteen Eighty-Four”. They weren’t against sex as such, because the Party needed new cogs; they promoted the idea that sexual activity was a dirty, degrading act. It should properly involve no pleasure to either partner, reproduction was the sole purpose, and the ultimate goal was the elimination of the orgasm entirely.

Cindy – to be honest, I didn’t really develop a theory of mind until I was in my late twenties. But I made an effort to *behave* as if I did, because I saw what people who didn’t were like and didn’t want to be like them.

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