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There's a fella here who keeps accusing me of avoiding his questions, when in reality I simply do not respond to questions that are inconsequential or irrelevant to the topic at hand, or that are simply paraphrases of questions already asked and answered.

So, I've begun this thread for the soul purpose of responding to any question he would like to beg—er, I mean pose.

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<b>Moderator</b>

Moderator

If what you believe is true, and those who have "stumbled" (been hardened/cut off) cannot recover, be grafted back in or in any way saved, then why did Paul say, "Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious....in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them."

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QUOTE=Skandelon;1728021]If what you believe is true, and those who have "stumbled" (been hardened/cut off) cannot recover, be grafted back in or in any way saved, then why did Paul say, "Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious....in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them."

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[/QUOTE]

The Apostle was contrasting the current state of the jewish people, who at time of Christ had as a whole rejected their messiah, so God turned towards becoming the God for both the Jews/Gentiles...

Paul stating that thru their "fall" God was able now to extend the messiah and His grace/salvation unto Gentiles...

Paul just saying from Gods point of view, the jews did fall as they rejected jesus as Messiah at that time, and God turned to dealing with the gentiles, but that isreal still had a future with God, as he would not forever cut off his own people...

In this case, more involving election of the nation of isreal and jewish peoples than individual jewish people!

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Member

If what you believe is true, and those who have "stumbled" (been hardened/cut off) cannot recover, be grafted back in or in any way saved, then why did Paul say, "Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious....in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them."

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This is answered better by considering what Paul said in verse 17: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Who were blinded? The non-elect. Regardless of whether one is a Calvinist or not, he can't escape the fact that those who will be saved are referred to as the elect. The elect weren't blinded. Not even temporarily.

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New Member

This is answered better by considering what Paul said in verse 17: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Who were blinded? The non-elect. Regardless of whether one is a Calvinist or not, he can't escape the fact that those who will be saved are referred to as the elect. The elect weren't blinded. Not even temporarily.

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<b>Moderator</b>

Moderator

This is answered better by considering what Paul said in verse 17: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

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You mean verse 7...

And I referred to that verse before, because if your following the next several verses Paul continues talking about "the rest" who were blinded. And speaking of them he asks the question, "have they stumbled beyond recovery?" We KNOW this is about those who are hardened/blinded because he acknowledges they have STUMBLED. But then he emphatically concludes they have NOT stumbled beyond recovery.

Who were blinded? The non-elect.

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I agree. Paul is one of those Jews elected by God for the noble purpose of carrying the message of redemption to the world, but the majority were left in their hardened/blindness...they have STUMBLED, but NOT beyond recovery.

Regardless of whether one is a Calvinist or not, he can't escape the fact that those who will be saved are referred to as the elect. The elect weren't blinded. Not even temporarily.

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And there is the difference. You presume God election is unto certain salvation, yet God was known to have elected the nation of Israel but not save every individual in it. They were elected to RECEIVE the revelation by which they might enter covenant with God. Some individuals are elected to carry out a noble purposes, such as apostleship. But there is no support for the concept that God has elected to cause some to believe unto salvation while passing over the rest. Whosoever will may come.

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<b>Moderator</b>

Moderator

This is answered better by considering what Paul said in verse 17: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Who were blinded? The non-elect. Regardless of whether one is a Calvinist or not, he can't escape the fact that those who will be saved are referred to as the elect. The elect weren't blinded. Not even temporarily.

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I should have pointed this out in the first response, but notice this answer actually does not address my question. I asked why Paul talks about their not stumbling beyond recovery if indeed all those who have stumbled can't recover. All you did was restate your unfounded premise that the non-elect were blinded beyond recovery and you did so without answering why Paul would say this. Can you now address my question?

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Member

And there is the difference. You presume God election is unto certain salvation, yet God was known to have elected the nation of Israel but not save every individual in it. They were elected to RECEIVE the revelation by which they might enter covenant with God. Some individuals are elected to carry out a noble purposes, such as apostleship. But there is no support for the concept that God has elected to cause some to believe unto salvation while passing over the rest. Whosoever will may come.

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Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

1 Pe 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
​

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Member

I should have pointed this out in the first response, but notice this answer actually does not address my question. I asked why Paul talks about their not stumbling beyond recovery if indeed all those who have stumbled can't recover. All you did was restate your unfounded premise that the non-elect were blinded beyond recovery and you did so without answering why Paul would say this. Can you now address my question?

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It would be useless to do so until you can see that the elect are those who are justified, and that the non-elect are those who are not.

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New Member

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

1 Pe 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
​

The elect are those who are justified. All of them.

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JUST a question to Aaron on this...

Are you saying here than the "whosoever wills" to come to Christ and be saved refers to those whom the Lord has enabled/willed/elected and made them able to have the will to come to jesus and be saved?

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Member

Are you saying here than the "whosoever wills" to come to Christ and be saved refers to those whom the Lord has enabled/willed/elected and made them able to have the will to come to jesus and be saved?

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I believe that, but I'm simply defining what is meant by "the elect." The elect are those who have, are and will be justified.

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<b>Moderator</b>

Moderator

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

1 Pe 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
​

The elect are those who are justified. All of them.

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Again, you are reading your perspective into the text.

I was talking to an Army recruiter the other day and asked him what he was doing this week. He said that was taking his recruits this week up to the base to start their training.

Now, should I presume that those "recruits" going with him to the base were the only people this man attempted to recruit? Obviously not, yet that is exactly what you have done with the text. Sometimes scripture refers to believers as 'the called ones' or 'the elect' or other such terms, but nothing about that name suggests that others weren't also invited/called or elected to receive God's gracious appeal. The term assumes the response of faith and whether that response was effectually caused by God or not isn't revealed simply by the use of that word. That is something YOU read into the text, period.

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