The only thing I can think of along these lines is the story of Ted Lucaylucay's father Lucky. He was a champion boxer and eskrimador if I remember correctly. There were some articles during the 90s on the influence of FMA on modern boxing. (Not the other way around.)

Ted Lucaylucay, just in case, was (RIP) an FMA practitioner from Dan Inosanto's camp.

The story in the U.S. FMA community was that FMA had an influence on Western boxing. I don't believe that to be true. Panantukan is not even recgonized as the so-called Filipino boxing in the PI. Suntukan meaning to strike/hit is more common and in terms of boxing, it is referred to as what else, boxing. Pananjakman (kicking art) is also unheard of as Sipa is to kick while Sikaran is a form of foot fighting. Boxing has always been a very admired sport in the Filipino culture and was more widely practiced than Arnis,Kali & Eskrima. I am pretty confident that if you were to ask any trainers/boxers from the Flashe Elorde (one of the most famous Pinoy boxers) era, they would not know anything about a particular FMA Boxing, just boxing.

The story in the U.S. FMA community was that FMA had an influence on Western boxing. I don't believe that to be true. Panantukan is not even recgonized as the so-called Filipino boxing in the PI. Suntukan meaning to strike/hit is more common and in terms of boxing, it is referred to as what else, boxing. Pananjakman (kicking art) is also unheard of as Sipa is to kick while Sikaran is a form of foot fighting. Boxing has always been a very admired sport in the Filipino culture and was more widely practiced than Arnis,Kali & Eskrima. I am pretty confident that if you were to ask any trainers/boxers from the Flashe Elorde (one of the most famous Pinoy boxers) era, they would not know anything about a particular FMA Boxing, just boxing.

John J

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That's my sense of things too. That terms like panantukan, mano mano, filipino boxing, and so on don't represent specific practices. I think they're more like an acknowledgement that empty hand tactics have to be addressed. And various groups address those needs in various characteristic ways. Some of those ways may be more influenced by boxing than others.

I was told that because of the FMA boxing methods forced the western boxing became lot of tighter after there visit under ww2 ... i am not sure if the time period is right... that's why i am curious if there are any influence from the fma boxing and the western boxing...

I was told that because of the FMA boxing methods forced the western boxing became lot of tighter after there visit under ww2 ... i am not sure if the time period is right... that's why i am curious if there are any influence from the fma boxing and the western boxing...

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Who was the source? Not that I'm trying to discredit them. But it may help explain any attributions they make.

I guess I've gotten pretty cynical somewhere along the line. But it's hard for me to imagine that encounters with Filipino boxers would have filtered all the way through the western boxing world.

Having said that, though, it really only takes one man to make a big change. Muhammed Ali would have held that sort of influence. So if someone influenced him, then perhaps...

(I'm not saying that Ali is the link. Just suggesting the type of stature we're talking about here.)

Who was the source? Not that I'm trying to discredit them. But it may help explain any attributions they make.

I guess I've gotten pretty cynical somewhere along the line. But it's hard for me to imagine that encounters with Filipino boxers would have filtered all the way through the western boxing world.

Having said that, though, it really only takes one man to make a big change. Muhammed Ali would have held that sort of influence. So if someone influenced him, then perhaps...

(I'm not saying that Ali is the link. Just suggesting the type of stature we're talking about here.)

Stuart

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I am so sorry that i don't remember the name of the guy who told me, but know it was someone with great experinse so that was why i started to think and then asked...

I have been mailing some outstanding Guros with the same qeustion, hopeing that they will give me some answers. Then i will get back to this subject...

Can ask bit offtopic what your background are? I am just curious by nature, are you a modern arnis player or do you train something else? It's just fun to get to know all the people here on the forum a little extra.. I hope it's oki...

I seem to recall that these claims started around the same
time that the various filipino names for boxing started to be
bandied about. I do not know if filipino boxing influenced
western boxing or not. My thought would be initially, no!
However, there is always the off chance that it did, but I
think it would be pretty hard to find the documentation to
prove it. I tend to think that some FMA practitioners just
wanted to get some credibility for their empty hands and
thought that associating with boxing would help. Credibilitythat they did not need, I might ad! I am certainly
interested in what other people might be able to dig up
or in specific references a teacher might have made.

Are we talkin about the Panantukan Filipino Boxing made famous by the JKD community, Filipino Boxers in general or Eskrima influencing Western boxing? I recall the article but didn't it talk about a Filipino boxer (possibly Elorde) being influenced by eskrima?

I am so sorry that i don't remember the name of the guy who told me, but know it was someone with great experinse so that was why i started to think and then asked...

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It's cool. I was mostly just curious.

There's a lot of discussion of Filipino boxing. And certainly, there are people who know more about it than me. But to my understanding, it's more of an empty hand application of some knife concepts to boxing. Hitting the bicep or wrist with your knuckles to simulate cutting with the knife, etc.

I have been mailing some outstanding Guros with the same qeustion, hopeing that they will give me some answers. Then i will get back to this subject...

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By all means do. It's a favourite of mine too.

Can ask bit offtopic what your background are? I am just curious by nature, are you a modern arnis player or do you train something else? It's just fun to get to know all the people here on the forum a little extra.. I hope it's oki...

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Modern arnis player? Hmm... I suppose so yeah. I've been training with a Modern arnis group for about 8 months now. But most of my FMA background (about 6 years) is in Doce Pares. And another 5 or so years in Inosanto Kali. So I'm a mutt. I don't really consider myself a Modern Arnis player, even though I train regularly with a Modern Arnis group.

I also have a background in taekwondo, JKD, kickboxing, and fencing. As I said, I'm a mutt.

Are we talkin about the Panantukan Filipino Boxing made famous by the JKD community, Filipino Boxers in general or Eskrima influencing Western boxing? I recall the article but didn't it talk about a Filipino boxer (possibly Elorde) being influenced by eskrima?

JohnJ

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I am talking about the philippino boxing... But the panantukan is fma boxing to? or are incoprated fma boxing principals or am i wrong?

Modern arnis player? Hmm... I suppose so yeah. I've been training with a Modern arnis group for about 8 months now. But most of my FMA background (about 6 years) is in Doce Pares. And another 5 or so years in Inosanto Kali. So I'm a mutt. I don't really consider myself a Modern Arnis player, even though I train regularly with a Modern Arnis group.

I also have a background in taekwondo, JKD, kickboxing, and fencing. As I said, I'm a mutt.

Stuart

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Oh that's cool, then you have been training for some time now...excuse but i really don't understand what you mean by you are a mutt...

This is the reply that i got from a Mr Steve Grody
_________________________________________

Kriss,
Ted Lucay Lucay wrote an Inside Kung Fu article about this, try to find
it. In a nutshell, according to Inosanto, boxing originally looked the
way you see in pics of Jack Johnson. But when the Navy had much contact
with the Filipinos, they were influenced by their hand position and
foot work (Ali was admittedly influenced by Flash Elordes) which is why
the Navy always won the boxing competitions among the armed forces.
That in turn influenced boxing in general.

But to my understanding, it's more of an empty hand application of some knife concepts to boxing. Hitting the bicep or wrist with your knuckles to simulate cutting with the knife, etc.

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Yes, as described by the late Ted Lucaylucay. Those were some of the principles of the so-called Filipino boxing coined Panantukan. Sectoring, checking and monitoring were also included. It is clear to say that Panantukan did not have any influence as these tactics could probably do more harm than good for a boxer. Even footwork would be hard to fathom as sectoring requires basic triangles. Switching leads are relatively a no,no for any boxer.

The “hitting the bicep” or better yet execution of, is commonly known as guntings or destructions in JKD concepts. This is a perfect example of uses in Filipino terminology aside from the literal translation. Gunting or better yet ginunting means scissors. So in essence, the opposite motions create a scissoring like motion i.e. diagonal, vertical, outside guntings. Sadly, I have heard numerous practitioners say gunting means destruction.

Speaking of Ginunting, does anyone know why Pekiti Tirsia’s sword of choice is called a ginunting? If you take 2 of them and put one on top of the other it looks like a very large pair of scissors because of the design / arc.

Kriss

I am talking about the philippino boxing... But the panantukan is fma boxing to? or are incoprated fma boxing principals or am i wrong?

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I don’t think there is an actual Filipino “style” of boxing. I believe Panantukan was a JKD concepts development of empty-hand methods which incorporated boxing.

Kris

In a nutshell, according to Inosanto, boxing originally looked the
way you see in pics of Jack Johnson. But when the Navy had much contact with the Filipinos, they were influenced by their hand position and foot work (Ali was admittedly influenced by Flash Elordes) which is why
the Navy always won the boxing competitions among the armed forces.
That in turn influenced boxing in general.

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This statement brings clarity now. We are definitely not talking about Panantukan but obviously Filipino BOXERS possibly influencing Western boxing. However, I find it hard to believe that the influence was so great and was the cause for changing the hand positioning.

I am curious to know when Ali actually met Elorde or did this influence come by way of footage. I don’t think it happened in 75’ (Thrilla in Manila) cause Elorde’s career was already in a downward spiral by the mid-60’s.

Please understand that I am not trying to discredit the claims but am looking for clarification in the question and accounts.

Oh that's cool, then you have been training for some time now...excuse but i really don't understand what you mean by you are a mutt...

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I've been training in arnis on and off (more on than off) since 1989. As for the "mutt" thing, sorry. I mean what I do is a mixture of lots of things. Arnis, kickboxing, etc. "Mutt" just sounds less pretentious to me than "eclectic."

Yes, as described by the late Ted Lucaylucay. Those were some of the principles of the so-called Filipino boxing coined Panantukan. Sectoring, checking and monitoring were also included. It is clear to say that Panantukan did not have any influence as these tactics could probably do more harm than good for a boxer. Even footwork would be hard to fathom as sectoring requires basic triangles. Switching leads are relatively a no,no for any boxer.

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Agreed. The switching leads thing, even when it does take place in boxing, doesn't happen the way it would in arnis.

The “hitting the bicep” or better yet execution of, is commonly known as guntings or destructions in JKD concepts. This is a perfect example of uses in Filipino terminology aside from the literal translation. Gunting or better yet ginunting means scissors. So in essence, the opposite motions create a scissoring like motion i.e. diagonal, vertical, outside guntings. Sadly, I have heard numerous practitioners say gunting means destruction.

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I'm guilty of using "gunting" to describe any destruction, though I did know that literally it means "scissors." And really only two of the empty hand destructions I can think of involve a literal scissoring action. The slap to the inside of the bicep as you parry with the other hand and the downward guide with the parry hand as you come upward with the point of your elbow. The others I know aren't really scissoring motions at all. Is there another term that's more accurate?