Site Navigation

Site Mobile Navigation

Builders Unearth a Mystery in Times Square

Ruth Fremson/The New York TimesA stone wall was uncovered at a construction site on West 41st Street, between Seventh and Eighth Avenues.

Midtown Manhattan has been overhauled so thoroughly in the last two decades that any structure not made of glass and steel looks old. In that realm, the tightly packed pile of stones that appeared at the base of 11 Times Square last week looked positively ancient.

Its sudden unveiling caused passers-by and neighbors to wonder how old it was and what purpose it had served.

Was it a furnace? A fireplace? A coal vault?

Inquiring minds — some belonging to reporters and editors at The New York Times whose desks practically overlooked it — demanded answers. The possibility of news happening mere feet away was both tantalizing and unusually convenient.

Who better to ask than the men in hardhats milling around the taped-off hole that contained the thing in question? Who better to express extreme disinterest in helping a reporter than those same men in hardhats?

According to them, it was part of something that was there before they built the nearly complete office tower at the corner of 42nd Street and Eighth Avenue.

Helpful.

Time to call in an expert. Breaking away from holiday shopping, Joan H. Geismar rushes to the scene, as only a dedicated urban archaeologist would.

Upon hearing a rough description of this remnant, Dr. Geismar, president of the Professional Archaeologists of New York City, had guessed it was a vault that held coal to heat a long-gone building. But upon further review, Dr. Geismar was less certain.

“This isn’t typical,” she said, after leaning over the edge of the street to inspect the stones.

Normally, a coal vault would be made of bricks and open at the top. But this wall of stacked stone had a rectangular opening at the bottom that made it resemble a fireplace. She speculated that it could have been the foundation of a structure built in the 19th century and that the opening had been cut in more modern times to accommodate utility lines.

When Doug Allen, the executive overseeing construction of the tower for its developer, SJP Properties, arrived on the block, Dr. Geismar quizzed him. Mr. Allen revealed little of what he knew, but he said the workers planned to leave the stones in place and fill the space around them.

That cover-up plan (literally) pleased Dr. Geismar, who researched the history of the property and found that it had housed a theater built in the early 1890s and a row of three- and four-story buildings that stood into the 1910s.

She imagined aloud how thrilling it would be for future historians and archaeologists to stumble upon the stones again in 100 years when the lot is redeveloped.

I’m glad that Dr. Geismar was able to check out the spot. What would have happened if no one had noticed and the work just continued on….it’s important to take note of these hidden treasures when they are unearthed.

How interesting that the “cover up plan” is the solution to an historical conundrum in Times Square. A little gift to the future, one might say.
Here in Santa Fe NM, all construction would cease and various archeologists, historians , historic boards and Indian tribes would would be deep in study, controversy and mediated talks as what to do with the discovery. Perhaps a way would be found to incorporate the structure into the present construction for all to recognize and learn from, with a plaque and a nod to whomever built it.
It could be said that real estate, time and money are more valuable in Times Square than downtown Santa Fe, but value is relative.
This approach has been somewhat successful, if time consuming, during the recent construction of our new convention center and Railyard development. The same rules hold true whether the artifacts found were from the 19th century or an ancient pueblo. Of course, contemporary Native Americans (rightfully, they continue to live here) weld more clout in NM than they do in Manhattan.This was evidenced when ancient burial sites were found on the site of the convention center construction. Occasionally , road and street repair is halted when items of archeological interest are uncovered.
A good example of the Santa Fe combination of old and new in development, is visible at a bank on Guadalupe St. The round house of the historic Santa Fe Chili Line Railway was incorporated into the bank’s construction and design , inside and out. Of course, Santa Fe’s pride and appeal is its storied history.

Disinterested and uninterested share a confused and confusing history. Disinterested was originally used to mean “not interested, indifferent”; uninterested in its earliest use meant “impartial.” By various developmental twists, disinterested is now used in both senses. Uninterested is used mainly in the sense “not interested, indifferent.” It is occasionally used to mean “not having a personal or property interest.”
Many object to the use of disinterested to mean “not interested, indifferent.” They insist that disinterested can mean only “impartial”: A disinterested observer is the best judge of behavior. However, both senses are well established in all varieties of English, and the sense intended is almost always clear from the context.

If I get a penny every time I see an old rubble stone wall, I’d be a millionaire before 2010.
#10 is right. It’s just some stone foundation wall of an old building. I can’t imagine it having any kind of significance. Whatever building it belonged to was long demolished anyway. Let’s move on.

Aww.. Aren’t you Americans sweet… You really try with this history thing don’t you? You’ve found a bunch of stones that haven’t even been there that long and you think it is a historical treasure! haha. We’re still digging up things left behind by the Romans and you get excited by a stack of stones from the Victorian era!

#12: Uh, yeah, well we haven’t been here as long as you’ve been there…it only makes sense that it doesn’t take as long a time frame to impress us. Our nation is in its adolescence. Pardon us for a little enthusiasm about the past of our city.

As an English professor and grammar expert, I must really take you to task for your use of “disinterest.” True, the word can mean “not interested,” but that was always a secondary meaning until a recent confusion by people about the meaning of the word. @ #3 is correct in her assessment of the word, though not in her rudeness.

Seth #6 – please have some respect for the memory of Our Founder Al Copeland…this was his secret [NO MORE!!!!] research lab, where unknowst to the teaming masses above he developed our most precious and sacred dietary laws.

You guys should look at how they deal with old sites in Nazareth and Jerusalem, Israel. A house possibly seen by Jesus and a treasure trove of old pottery shards, a mikvah or two, and an arch were uncovered, and both sites are to be incorporated into the structures being built around them- and opened to the public.

What's Next

Looking for New York Today?

New York Today is still going strong! Though no longer on City Room, New York Today continues to appear every weekday morning, offering a roundup of news and events for the city. You can find the latest New York Today at nytoday.com or in the morning, on The New York Times homepage or its New York section. You can also receive it via email.

Lookin for Metropolitan Diary?

Metropolitan Diary continues to publish! Since 1976, Metropolitan Diary has been a place for New Yorkers, past and present, to share odd fleeting moments in the city. We will continue to publish one item each weekday morning and a round-up in Monday's print edition. You can find the latest entries at nytimes.com/diary and on our New York section online.

About

City Room®, a news blog of live reporting, features and reader conversations about New York City, has been archived. Send questions or suggestions by e-mail.