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The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:53 pm

Jubilee wrote:The Flinstones and Simpsons never claimed to advance continuity. They don't consistently have to retcon and bullshit their readers. Superhero comics are pretty much unique in that respect.

No, they did. For the Flintstones they had Peebles and BamBam show up. That was an advance. Characters have died on the Simpsons and this has been played upon with the survivors in other episodes. That is also an advance.

Retcons come about due to screw ups by the comic creators or with simply having a change of mind. Retconning the timeline just gives, in a sense, what you want while not altering the character(s) heavily.

Do not read any old pulp stories... you may scream at them as if they were a Rob Liefeld comic for all the retcons. Same goes with a ton of detective series and spy stories too.

The Old Doctor

Jubilee wrote:The Flinstones and Simpsons never claimed to advance continuity. They don't consistently have to retcon and bullshit their readers. Superhero comics are pretty much unique in that respect.

No, they did. For the Flintstones they had Peebles and BamBam show up. That was an advance. Characters have died on the Simpsons and this has been played upon with the survivors in other episodes. That is also an advance.

Retcons come about due to screw ups by the comic creators or with simply having a change of mind. Retconning the timeline just gives, in a sense, what you want while not altering the character(s) heavily.

Do not read any old pulp stories... you may scream at them as if they were a Rob Liefeld comic for all the retcons. Same goes with a ton of detective series and spy stories too.

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Jubilee wrote:The Flinstones and Simpsons never claimed to advance continuity. They don't consistently have to retcon and bullshit their readers. Superhero comics are pretty much unique in that respect.

Actually, the Simpsons retcon all the time.

Whenever they have those stories of Bart and Lisa as babies, they always change the timelines.

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Jubilee wrote:The Flinstones and Simpsons never claimed to advance continuity. They don't consistently have to retcon and bullshit their readers. Superhero comics are pretty much unique in that respect.

Actually, the Simpsons retcon all the time.

Whenever they have those stories of Bart and Lisa as babies, they always change the timelines.

They had the episode where Skinner wasn't really Skinner.

It's just funnier when they do it.

Jude Terror wrote:I'll vote for NPWFBH in the next election.

Outhouse Post #1,000,000:

Frag It wrote::smt117

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:55 pm

ReturnoftheMack wrote:I understand that, but it's not something that you can or will get.

And it's not like the comics industry has tricked you. It's always been this way.

The Old Doctor

ReturnoftheMack wrote:I understand that, but it's not something that you can or will get.

And it's not like the comics industry has tricked you. It's always been this way.

Jubilee got Jedi Mind Tricked then!

3MJ

by 3MJ » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:56 pm

Y'know what the fuck I mean when I say that Simpsons and Flinstones don't have continuity guys. Sure some people die etc etc and sure there are retcons etc etc but you surely understand the difference.

3MJ

Y'know what the fuck I mean when I say that Simpsons and Flinstones don't have continuity guys. Sure some people die etc etc and sure there are retcons etc etc but you surely understand the difference.

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Jubilee wrote:Y'know what the fuck I mean when I say that Simpsons and Flinstones don't have continuity guys. Sure some people die etc etc and sure there are retcons etc etc but you surely understand the difference.

I get it.

I'm just saying that what you want doesn't work. These are valuable IPs. You can't want Grandpa Peter Parker because Peter Parker then becomes worthless to the owners.

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Jubilee wrote:Y'know what the fuck I mean when I say that Simpsons and Flinstones don't have continuity guys. Sure some people die etc etc and sure there are retcons etc etc but you surely understand the difference.

I get it.

I'm just saying that what you want doesn't work. These are valuable IPs. You can't want Grandpa Peter Parker because Peter Parker then becomes worthless to the owners.

Jude Terror wrote:I'll vote for NPWFBH in the next election.

Outhouse Post #1,000,000:

Frag It wrote::smt117

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:00 pm

Jubilee, I think you are ignoring the basic idea of continuity for stories. It was to exist or you have no story. Simple continuity is needed. But as you complain of, a greater over all one comes in and causes a need for a stall in advancement of age in characters. If they don't... well, you have manga then, not comics. But the thing is, the writers control this as it is all fiction. They can choose to stick to it hard, as with the Nolan Batfilms or as Mike Baron did with both Nexus and The Badger. The only real problem is that you end up reducing the number of stories that could be told then. There's a built in stale date with that. Most folks don't want that and more so those folks who make a living with this stuff. Also, the vast majority of fans of all levels.

You can find what you want, but it's not going to be exactly what you want no matter.

The Old Doctor

Jubilee, I think you are ignoring the basic idea of continuity for stories. It was to exist or you have no story. Simple continuity is needed. But as you complain of, a greater over all one comes in and causes a need for a stall in advancement of age in characters. If they don't... well, you have manga then, not comics. But the thing is, the writers control this as it is all fiction. They can choose to stick to it hard, as with the Nolan Batfilms or as Mike Baron did with both Nexus and The Badger. The only real problem is that you end up reducing the number of stories that could be told then. There's a built in stale date with that. Most folks don't want that and more so those folks who make a living with this stuff. Also, the vast majority of fans of all levels.

You can find what you want, but it's not going to be exactly what you want no matter.

3MJ

by 3MJ » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:05 pm

ReturnoftheMack wrote:I get it.

I'm just saying that what you want doesn't work. These are valuable IPs. You can't want Grandpa Peter Parker because Peter Parker then becomes worthless to the owners.

Course he doesn't. You can have the Spider-man films without a Spider-man comic being published. Easily.

You could also have tried to make another franchise popular that could take off. Comics stopped doing that and went for the easy money.

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Jubilee wrote:Course he doesn't. You can have the Spider-man films without a Spider-man comic being published. Easily.

You could also have tried to make another franchise popular that could take off. Comics stopped doing that and went for the easy money.

I don't disagree with you there, but at least Marvel is trying with GotG.

But on the other hand, I also blame the fans and comic shop retailers. They don't push new things. Look at all the popular and critically-acclaimed comics that have existed that die because they don't sell like a 4th Wolverine book.

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Jubilee wrote:Course he doesn't. You can have the Spider-man films without a Spider-man comic being published. Easily.

You could also have tried to make another franchise popular that could take off. Comics stopped doing that and went for the easy money.

I don't disagree with you there, but at least Marvel is trying with GotG.

But on the other hand, I also blame the fans and comic shop retailers. They don't push new things. Look at all the popular and critically-acclaimed comics that have existed that die because they don't sell like a 4th Wolverine book.

Jude Terror wrote:I'll vote for NPWFBH in the next election.

Outhouse Post #1,000,000:

Frag It wrote::smt117

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:14 pm

Jubilee, you describe manga and anime as what you want. Thing is... lots of derivative stuff though.

dINGO

I kind of wish DC had fixed things to where the JSA wasn't formed in the 40's and placed more like a point 25-30 years in the present day DCU. It just would have saved a lot of convoluted excuses to why they didn't look as old as they were supposed to be.

Nah... With their time in limbo the jsa was good. Plus, nazis! They have to have fought nazis

dINGO

I kind of wish DC had fixed things to where the JSA wasn't formed in the 40's and placed more like a point 25-30 years in the present day DCU. It just would have saved a lot of convoluted excuses to why they didn't look as old as they were supposed to be.

Nah... With their time in limbo the jsa was good. Plus, nazis! They have to have fought nazis

DANG!

Cat-Scratch wrote:Originally they all barely aged, but given that so many of the JSA characters were so strongly set in that time period, they really will not work that well in later periods. Unless you pull an Earth 2 52 style.

Back in the 90s, there was a series of comics called Big Bang. They covered this rather well by simply having the crossovers occur over time as well as dimension. The interactions become explained away as a product of time travel instead of just dimension hoping, should they all co-exist in the same universe. The JLA characters are more modern and a better fit for today, though I some times think that they really should have left them back in the 60s/70s/80s and kept coming up with newer in continuity versions.

But again, the JSA is a 40s era group. They will not really work for the 70s or 80s. Different sensibilities and all.

I don't think any of the true JSAers' origins were as tied in to the era as you think. The only GA DC-related character that I can remember having a hard-WW II era origin would be Liberty Belle, who escaped the Nazi invasion of France by swimming across the English Channel.

There were certainly fights with Nazi spies and the like, but I don't think any of them are so tied into the characters that they couldn't easily be reconnected out or tweaked.

Ironically, I think the GA DC characters were more connected to the WWII era in the late 70's and 80's, with Levitz's JSA origin story and Roy Thomas' All-Star Squadron.

DANG!

Cat-Scratch wrote:Originally they all barely aged, but given that so many of the JSA characters were so strongly set in that time period, they really will not work that well in later periods. Unless you pull an Earth 2 52 style.

Back in the 90s, there was a series of comics called Big Bang. They covered this rather well by simply having the crossovers occur over time as well as dimension. The interactions become explained away as a product of time travel instead of just dimension hoping, should they all co-exist in the same universe. The JLA characters are more modern and a better fit for today, though I some times think that they really should have left them back in the 60s/70s/80s and kept coming up with newer in continuity versions.

But again, the JSA is a 40s era group. They will not really work for the 70s or 80s. Different sensibilities and all.

I don't think any of the true JSAers' origins were as tied in to the era as you think. The only GA DC-related character that I can remember having a hard-WW II era origin would be Liberty Belle, who escaped the Nazi invasion of France by swimming across the English Channel.

There were certainly fights with Nazi spies and the like, but I don't think any of them are so tied into the characters that they couldn't easily be reconnected out or tweaked.

Ironically, I think the GA DC characters were more connected to the WWII era in the late 70's and 80's, with Levitz's JSA origin story and Roy Thomas' All-Star Squadron.

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."

dINGO

The JSA origin, as told in DC Special (28 I think) literally has them fighting Nazisand later in All-Star Squadron they are all irradiated with energy from Ian Karkell.. and later time in Limbo... so yes, JSA fought a lot of Nazis.. they also fought them in the Last Days of the JSA which I have not read in forever and was super awesome

dINGO

The JSA origin, as told in DC Special (28 I think) literally has them fighting Nazisand later in All-Star Squadron they are all irradiated with energy from Ian Karkell.. and later time in Limbo... so yes, JSA fought a lot of Nazis.. they also fought them in the Last Days of the JSA which I have not read in forever and was super awesome

Wrasslin' Fan

outsider wrote:Or conversely, keep the JSA firmly fixed in the WWII era and don't have them around today (unless it's Alan due to magic, but not frickin' Ted... that was stupid).

I actually have a solution for that. It's pure fan fic, but whatever. Hitler was into the occult, right? Between Vandal Savage, Wotan, and Mordru, you've got three villains that could fit a JSA vs. Occult Nazi themes. So part of that occult Nazi story involves searching for an artifact that grants long-lasting life and that affects the JSAers granting them said long-lasting life.

Wrasslin' Fan

outsider wrote:Or conversely, keep the JSA firmly fixed in the WWII era and don't have them around today (unless it's Alan due to magic, but not frickin' Ted... that was stupid).

I actually have a solution for that. It's pure fan fic, but whatever. Hitler was into the occult, right? Between Vandal Savage, Wotan, and Mordru, you've got three villains that could fit a JSA vs. Occult Nazi themes. So part of that occult Nazi story involves searching for an artifact that grants long-lasting life and that affects the JSAers granting them said long-lasting life.

When you're as good as Chael, you can only call out people worse than you.

@syxxpakk on the Twitter.

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:02 am

holtom2000 wrote:The JSA origin, as told in DC Special (28 I think) literally has them fighting Nazisand later in All-Star Squadron they are all irradiated with energy from Ian Karkell.. and later time in Limbo... so yes, JSA fought a lot of Nazis.. they also fought them in the Last Days of the JSA which I have not read in forever and was super awesome

That and most of the heroes of that era were created to fight "foreign foes" aka Nazis. There's also more to that era than just Nazis.

The Old Doctor

holtom2000 wrote:The JSA origin, as told in DC Special (28 I think) literally has them fighting Nazisand later in All-Star Squadron they are all irradiated with energy from Ian Karkell.. and later time in Limbo... so yes, JSA fought a lot of Nazis.. they also fought them in the Last Days of the JSA which I have not read in forever and was super awesome

That and most of the heroes of that era were created to fight "foreign foes" aka Nazis. There's also more to that era than just Nazis.