While I agree wrath spamming is silly (I also think using a heal to do maximum damage is silly for a feral class) you could definitely bring your point across in a less douchey manner. One of the best parts of this forum (imo) has been the civility of everyone involved. If we thought someone's logs were bad we wouldn't say so. Instead we would question why their melee attacks were so much higher than bleeds and give suggestions to improve.

I definitely don't speak for everyone here, but I personally appreciate the non-internet atmosphere while these forums have been around.

Edit: you also have to be careful looking at any Gara'jal logs because when you are separated from the person running the logs you are not being parsed 100%. I know that's your boss kill you posted and they posted on The Spirit Kings, just saying.

I too hope it'll be nerfed soon or DoC/NV will be buffed. I'd like to go to DoC's rotation, but ATM my guild needs extra dps it provides. Bleeds are lower because I reforged everything from mastery into haste & crits

Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today - and it won't be you.

Viray wrote:I too hope it'll be nerfed soon or DoC/NV will be buffed. I'd like to go to DoC's rotation, but ATM my guild needs extra dps it provides. Bleeds are lower because I reforged everything from mastery into haste & crits

Viray wrote:I wanted to check the reforge values Jazdia from EJ suggests. Next time I'll probably check the build with mastery.

EJ is a bad place to get Feral information, always has been and probably always will be. When Jazdia first posted her "guide" I took a look at it and just from the sheer amount of misinformation she was preaching, was disgusted.

Like I said before: I wanted to check haste reforge yesterday, today I'll probably go with mastery setup again. I've been playing feral for years, and I've never seen so many different opinions on what's wrong and what's not. That's why I've decided to check it myself - can you blame me?

Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today - and it won't be you.

Mihir, of course my bleeds are (terribly) low. I reforged to haste/crit in correspondence with simulationcraft findings on the HotW profile: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... otw_2.htmlDuring wrathspam there are no bleeds to keep up, and the reforging pushes autoattacks ahead.

That said, I do understand your 'frustration' as wrathspam is indeed quite a braindead activity, while the DoC rotation requires paying much more attention yet yields approximately equal results. You want the harder rotation to reward you with more dps, just like a better player is rewarded with better dps over a worse player. That's a very logical stance, one I agree with.

Still, I am enjoying myself with HotW. I love seeing big numbers on the screen. 1.2m crits on Elagon are fun for me. Enjoyment is subjective; different people enjoy different things.

PS: Dysheki, I appreciate the post, but I'm not offended by Mihir at al. He's a very helpful guy (not a douche) who's been making feral guides at mmo-champion for years. He's an INTP, so he just tells it like it is. His observations and hence criticism are correct (and if this was a DoC parse, it would be terrible beyond belief. Like - gfto and reroll terrible), his conclusion isn't. I'm an INTJ, so I only concern myself with what works and what doesn't. HotW gives results (= logical reason) and lets me look at pretty numbers (= 'fun' reason), so I use it. But if HotW were nerfed or DoC/NV were buffed, I'd switch in an instant.

PPS: While EJ is a terrible place for feral information nowadays, the haste/crit reforging for HotW is not incorrect. That information was generated by Agixx, not EJ.

Last edited by Cerise on Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:03 am, edited 3 times in total.

Personally I don't know where I stand on this. I absolutely hate the DoC rotation but don't necessarily love the idea of spamming wrath for 30% of my damage with a 6 minute cd. I don't think blizzard knows what they wanna do either. We're in a bit of a pickle right now.

Wrathspam scales only with agility, haste, and crit while DoC (same as NV) scales with everything - agility, haste, crit, mastery, hit, and expertise. I've got no math to back it up, but even if HoTW remains unchanged, I fully expect DoC to pull ahead in T15 gear.

That being said, I've tried both DoC and HoTW and DoC isn't exactly hard either. You get a button that lights up every time you do a finishing move or have NS up, and you want to press it right before you refresh rip/rake ... that's about the gist of it. I don't see where players think HoTW wrath-spam is brain-dead, as it takes more planning and management to keep it a dps boost instead of loss. With DoC, hitting your HT macro is always a gain, no matter what else you're doing. With HoTW, you can easily lose dps, or at the least, most of the cd, from unplanned movement or failing to switch your agility weapon back in. Regardless of how low these two chances are, you have the *possibility* of failure, which is non-existent with DoC.

When Ghostcrawler decided to finally answer the single Feral question he touched on the entire beta it was about SR and the Feral rotation. To paraphrase, "We didn't like how easy the Cata rotation became which is why we brought back SR to be more importent instead of someone you could ignore". They wanted a more complex rotation to be the bigger payoff.

I like Mihir dislike the HotW rotation and I think it is broken. Weapon swaping and Wrath spam are very clearly unintended to be this big of a dps boost. It's also very unbalancing in PVP. I did half of the raid last week as DoC and half as HotW. It was pretty much required to meet the DPS requirements of Elegon (for my raid at least). That disapoints me.

As for the Haste being so much better, I am not sure I agree with the simulations. How many more Wrath casts do we get when reforged for haste? If it's only 1 more cast I don't see a lot of benefit by dropping Mastery for the next 5 minutes and 15 seconds. I mean at our current gear level can we even get one more cast out of HotW reforging all haste? I know I am going to try when I get home. If anyone wants to try in the mean time please do so.

Well, regardless of intention any time you place a massive png of Yao Ming's laughing face you instantly come off as a douche to me =P Whatever.

HotW may also fix itself in that ferals won't likely upgrade their SP weapon as often as they upgrade their agi weapon, making DoC possibly the better option by default. I didn't get my weapon last week, but jeez, a 26 ilevel upgrade will seemingly be difficult to pass up.

I don't think HotW is terribly unbalancing in PvP, however. Ran into a 2s match with a resto druid that tried to help his partner burst with HotW at the start of the match and he gave up shortly after and went back to the traditional healing role. I also tried it for the lulz one match but it's so easy to counter someone when they are just spamming a long cast spell. Did it hit hard? Sure. But the better question is how often you will hit.

Dysheki wrote:HotW may also fix itself in that ferals won't likely upgrade their SP weapon as often as they upgrade their agi weapon, making DoC possibly the better option by default. I didn't get my weapon last week, but jeez, a 26 ilevel upgrade will seemingly be difficult to pass up.

I have a 463 spirit staff with no haste on it. I also got the 489 agi staff. I have done attempts as HotW and as DoC on Elegon. I can assure you the 463 healer staff worked just fine for HotW and far out stripped my DoC attempts with the 489 staff.

As for your 2's match... the Resto -> Feral conversion is a very poor example because they don't compare at all. First did the Resto weapon swap? If not spell staves have a much lower weapon damage then Agi staffs. Second energy regen for Restos in Cat form is really bad. I know its bad for us too, but we have SotF and even if they have it selected it doesn't work in Cat form.

Feral -> Boom is much more powerful and much more likely to make a quick end to a fight. No I don't think you could get away with it in high level PVP, but I use it pretty effectivly in random BG's last night. As most of the player base isn't elite and playing in the 1800+ brackets it will over balance PVP. If they nerf it, it won't change any higher level folks, and it will even out the lower levels.

Dysheki wrote:While I agree wrath spamming is silly (I also think using a heal to do maximum damage is silly for a feral class) you could definitely bring your point across in a less douchey manner. One of the best parts of this forum (imo) has been the civility of everyone involved. If we thought someone's logs were bad we wouldn't say so. Instead we would question why their melee attacks were so much higher than bleeds and give suggestions to improve.

I definitely don't speak for everyone here, but I personally appreciate the non-internet atmosphere while these forums have been around.

Edit: you also have to be careful looking at any Gara'jal logs because when you are separated from the person running the logs you are not being parsed 100%. I know that's your boss kill you posted and they posted on The Spirit Kings, just saying.

Heh, apologies for the douchey post, was just in a bad mood this morning

Cerise wrote:I'm an INTJ, so I only concern myself with what works and what doesn't. HotW gives results (= logical reason) and lets me look at pretty numbers (= 'fun' reason), so I use it. But if HotW were nerfed or DoC/NV were buffed, I'd switch in an instant.

While unintended behaviour can be fun and sometimes allows for new directions to present itself, the current unintended behaviour of HotW is basically throwing away any feral theorycrafting and replacing it with spam wrath for 45 sec and you'll be on top of the dmg meters regardless of what you do the other 315 seconds. (just watch this movie but think HotW instead of innervate)And it's confusing to me that there would be ppl that would actually use this instead of just posting on the blizz forums "this is wrong, fix it now".

HoTW only sims about 300 higher dps for me compared to DoC. What are you crusading about? Hyperbole does not a cogent argument make.

DoC isn't harder, it's just less dps. Just like rogues weren't subtlety before late Firelands. Did rogues complain on the official forums that combat and assassination were braindead and OP and should be nerfed so that they were under subt dps, since well, subt was actually harder than either of the other two specs?

It's a stupid argument - you play what is best and roll with the nerfs if they happen. Who knows what blizzard is thinking of at any given time. HoTW is currently slightly better than DoC, so that's what I'm going to spec and gear for, feel free to bitch and moan about how braindead it is while I'm doing theoretically higher dps. Might as well yell that tanks are doing more damage than they should. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for tank damage to be changed anytime soon.

Mihir wrote:And it's confusing to me that there would be ppl that would actually use this instead of just posting on the blizz forums "this is wrong, fix it now".

I guess we do both. You're probably aware of the current BitW bug that lets you roll a very strong rip. People have tried to notify blizzard to fix it (I think Tinder tried multiple times even), but in the mean while, we use it to get higher dps.

Kaiadam wrote:Might as well yell that tanks are doing more damage than they should.

Mihir wrote:Heh, apologies for the douchey post, was just in a bad mood this morning

NP, I guess I was in some kind of wierd white knight mode yesterday

On a side note, yes the resto went kitty. But when he goes kitty when a feral is around he opens himself up to hibernate as well and it becomes easier to CC him to hell (just like it's easy to constantly keep my wraths from casting). Granted will he be open to this CC against other comps? Not really, mostly just druids and hunters. It might be more viable against other opponents but I was having none of it, lol. I wish I remembered his name to see if that's a strat they continue to use and how well they're doing, but matches come and go so quick sometimes and unless you play someone multiple times it's easy to forget.

I only remember one pair so far out of the games we've played because they are douchey mcdouche-ingtons. First game we played them they caught me with my pants down and they won (pally /lol'ed, whatever). Second game we wrecked their warrior. My buddy /lol's at the pally back. Then the pally starts zipping all over with a classic dick move and it becomes even harder to kill him because he's literally teleporting all around a pillar. He said he was going to leave the match until my partner /lol'ed and decided to do what he did (essentially admitted to lag hacking). We played against them a few more times. Very even, we can't kill each other - we literally end up sitting on our mounts for 2 45 minute games Sunday.

To cheer you folks up - HotW is totally not viable for Will of the Emperor encounter in my opinion. I had to switch to NV midraid, because I still haven't mastered DoC rotation (plus I didn't set any auras to warn me bout swiftness procs etc).

Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today - and it won't be you.

Cerise wrote:I guess we do both. You're probably aware of the current BitW bug that lets you roll a very strong rip. People have tried to notify blizzard to fix it (I think Tinder tried multiple times even), but in the mean while, we use it to get higher dps.

Out of curiosity, what is this BITW bug? I tried googling for it but haven't been able to turn up a 2012 bug.