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whenever you might be back in Korea - and have the chance to order, just try Gun Mandu (pronounced "goon mon doo"). They are fingerfood of quite spicy minced meat, fried and wrapped in a Dim Sum-like bakery. They are normally served with a spicy soy sauce with sesame.

Whenever I am in a good Korean restaurant, I could eat Gun Mandu alone even if the other dishes are also mostly GREAT.

If anybody likes spicy East Asean types of cooking, also check out chinese Sechuan style.

Well done Withendale. You have correctly worked out that by changing the verb from the present to the infinitive you can alter the case structure of the clause, in the process allowing yourself to use 'whom' without error. No backsliding however! I should be very cross to find you writing 'Howard Goodall, whom I note is a composer' in future missives.

On a more general level, hasn't all this chat about 'proxy servers' taken things rather off topic?

J-C.

Indeed. Let's get back to discussing English grammar.

On the other hand this site does provide great learning opportunities. Up until this evening I thought that a Proxy Server was a stand-in waiter. I may not yet be altogether clear what a PS is but at least I have some idea what it is not.

As Jean has already indicated: in terms of privacy or lack thereof, there is no difference between Europe and "Europe". There were also people from America at Del's table, and it wasn't necessary to adorn that continent's name with quotation marks / inverted commas. Why should Europe be different?

If I told you that I live in Africa, you wouldn't know any more about me than had I written "Africa".

But perhaps, like Jean, I am also being dense, and the inverted comma is indeed some great protector of anonymity...

As Jean has already indicated: in terms of privacy or lack thereof, there is no difference between Europe and "Europe". There were also people from America at Del's table, and it wasn't necessary to adorn that continent's name with quotation marks / inverted commas. Why should Europe be different?

If I told you that I live in Africa, you wouldn't know any more about me than had I written "Africa".

But perhaps, like Jean, I am also being dense, and the inverted comma is indeed some great protector of anonymity...

Regards from "Africa".

Just because Jean indicates something does not mean that that is the only valid answer or even correct.

Putting quotes around a word when writing, like using one's fingers in the air when talking, is often a device to imply the phrase "so-called" or to indicate irony or mocking or even to indicate the negation, among other things.

In the case of America, I imagine that there are few American citizens of individual states who do not consider themselves American. After all, it is one country. They are Floridians in the winter and New Yorkers in the summer but always Americans, for example.

In contrast, many citizens of individual countries on the European continent do not consider themselves to be European, but rather Italian, Romanian, Polish, Dutch, etc. They are from "Europe". In fact, a good many citizens of countries on the European continent feel a closer bond to America than to Bulgaria, for example. By referring to " Europe " one can emphasize one's distancing from the often nebulous European project. Africa generally refers to the African continent.

The privacy matter can be considered as distinct from the quotes. If a piano manufacturer were from a country such as France or Italy or Holland until recently that essentially only has one major manufacturer, then referring to " Europe " rather than the actual country they are from would provide them with respect and privacy since posting on a public bulletin board without their permission might be considered a breach of trust by those from cultures where privacy exists and is respected. He could also have said " the European continent " (quotes indicating the text that could have been inserted, not the literal inclusion of the punctuation.)

As to Africa, I am aware of no continent spanning project that is equivalent to the political organization of the Federal government of the United States of America that might encourage all Africans see themselves as citizens of one country called Africa nor to the far-reaching project of the European Union trying to unite different cultures and countries into one common market that might encourage citizens to distance themselves from such a project and refer to themselves being from " Africa".

If you were sincere when writing " Regards from ' Africa '" I would assume, given your stated location, that you might be indicating that you are setting yourself apart supporting the traditional Boer narrative that South Africa is a special, God given place, set apart for its new immigrants, not to be confused with all the rest of the basket case countries on the continent.

To protect the anonymity of the individual. Europe covered it without being specific. (He may not care but I hadn't asked....)

Perhaps I am being dense but I fail to see why the anonymity of the person concerned is any more protected by the use of inverted commas.

Most Europeans I know, when they speak of Europe almost always speak of "Europe". And, most all appreciate their privacy.

I'm fascinated. How does one speak of "Europe" and how does it differ from speaking of Europe? A slight apologetic cough perhaps? A full-blown sneering drawl? Does one wriggle ones fingers in the air to indicate inverted commas? Does one wriggle ones fingers in the air to indicate quotation marks?

By the way, when I last looked, America was not a country, but a continent consisting of North and South America, encompassing several countries.

Yes. However, if you ask a typical American (in the sense of United States citizen) if a Colombian or a Brazilian or an Innuit is an American, the likely answer you will get is: no. Or, perhaps after some prodding, you might get them to admit that they might be considered "Americans".

To protect the anonymity of the individual. Europe covered it without being specific. (He may not care but I hadn't asked....)

Perhaps I am being dense but I fail to see why the anonymity of the person concerned is any more protected by the use of inverted commas.

Most Europeans I know, when they speak of Europe almost always speak of "Europe". And, most all appreciate their privacy.

I'm fascinated. How does one speak of "Europe" and how does it differ from speaking of Europe? A slight apologetic cough perhaps? A full-blown sneering drawl? Does one wriggle ones fingers in the air to indicate inverted commas? Does one wriggle ones fingers in the air to indicate quotation marks?

One speaks of Europe when one discusses the need for all countries to execute to the agreed level of financial discipline.

One speaks of "Europe" when France yet again argues that it should be an exception and not have to be held to previous, current or future promises, agreements and pledges.

To protect the anonymity of the individual. Europe covered it without being specific. (He may not care but I hadn't asked....)

Perhaps I am being dense but I fail to see why the anonymity of the person concerned is any more protected by the use of inverted commas.

Most Europeans I know, when they speak of Europe almost always speak of "Europe". And, most all appreciate their privacy.

I'm fascinated. How does one speak of "Europe" and how does it differ from speaking of Europe? A slight apologetic cough perhaps? A full-blown sneering drawl? Does one wriggle ones fingers in the air to indicate inverted commas? Does one wriggle ones fingers in the air to indicate quotation marks?

One speaks of Europe when one discusses the need for all countries to execute to the agreed level of financial discipline.

One speaks of "Europe" when France yet again argues that it should be an exception and not have to be held to previous, current or future promises, agreements and pledges.

In this case (and for reasons that will remain private) I did not want to be specific about one gentleman's country of origin and yet wanted to mention him as an indication of the broad cultural diversity of the group. I thought I had accomplished that. ddf

Well, it clearly backfired.

Actually, framing Europe with any kind of punctuation adornment made Europe stand out. If you wanted to downplay, you should have failed to capitalize it or used a smaller font size than you used in the rest of the text.

When I read the post, I assumed that you wanted Europe to stand out. Since punctuation is for the most part an attempt to approximate the nuances of spoken language, my take was that while it was not surprising that the others in the party might freely and amicably associate in a public place, a prominent Euro in the piano biz might not want to be caught by camera or even by written word selling out brand pedigree, national pride, or even family honor in exchange for cost savings on parts and labor.

Despite any misunderstanding of that small point, I enjoyed your post, your thoughts, and your hope (which I share) that a shrinking world may eventually become a more enlightened world.

To protect the anonymity of the individual. Europe covered it without being specific. (He may not care but I hadn't asked....)

Perhaps I am being dense but I fail to see why the anonymity of the person concerned is any more protected by the use of inverted commas.

Most Europeans I know, when they speak of Europe almost always speak of "Europe". And, most all appreciate their privacy.

I'm fascinated. How does one speak of "Europe" and how does it differ from speaking of Europe? A slight apologetic cough perhaps? A full-blown sneering drawl? Does one wriggle ones fingers in the air to indicate inverted commas? Does one wriggle ones fingers in the air to indicate quotation marks?

One speaks of Europe when one discusses the need for all countries to execute to the agreed level of financial discipline.

One speaks of "Europe" when France yet again argues that it should be an exception and not have to be held to previous, current or future promises, agreements and pledges.

I find your comment offensively racist.

J-C.

It is just an illustration of how real Europeans think based on historical facts of the past behavior of actual EU member states and why this leads to them to discuss "Europe."

Perhaps you should take yourself less seriously and then look up the definition for racist.

Del, I was hoping while I was in the Seattle, WA area last week I might get to drive down and get to meet you. But things on my end just didn't work out, and since you were out I suppose it worked out well.

I have the feeling that you are dressing up your own rather odd opinions as those of 'real Europeans' If this is not the case perhaps you could enlighten me as to what you mean by the phrase and perhaps explain how I might distinguish a real European from any other kind (presumably false, fake or artificial Europeans)

It would also be interesting to learn how many of the 750,000,000 (approx) Europeans are real and how you have gone about canvassing them for their views.

Del, I was hoping while I was in the Seattle, WA area last week I might get to drive down and get to meet you. But things on my end just didn't work out, and since you were out I suppose it worked out well.

Maybe next time.

I'd be happy for you to stop by for a visit. (Right now, though, that would involve a 14-hour plane ride, each way). Then I could say I'd been visited by an "American."

This thread, which seemed quite fun at first, has got rather out of hand and for my own part I shall make no further contributions to it.

I should like to apologize to Del for hijacking his OT and to Withindale for teasing him about grammar and I would particularly like to thank Marty for his efforts to calm things down.

It is 23.15h in France and because I am now mildly paranoid about being smelly I propose to take a bath before going to bed.

Good night to one and all.

J-C.

Edited for punctuation (!)

No apology needed. I have found the whole discussion quite interesting.

We not only live in interesting times but we live in a rapidly shrinking world. Cultures are brought together and mixing and meshing (or not) in altogether new ways. We can run from this or we can join in. I prefer to join in. As do, I think, most who participate on a forum such as this. I find the differing cultural ideas and approaches to things I have taken for granted from my youth to be quite stimulating.

You have all misunderstood Europe. From a British point of view (in fact I prefer English) one prefers Continental Europe (with or without quotation marks) to distinguish the big bit from the offshore segment.

Whilst it is allegedly a fact that the United Kingdom is part of "Europe" the reality is that there are "continentals" and there are British.

As it happens I am married to a continental, so I have a foot either side of the water.

Everyone surely knows that Europe, when surrounded by quotation marks, includes the EEC undesirables. Hence it is clear from Del's post that his secret dining companion hails from neither the UK nor the likes of France and Germany. Thus we are dealing with a nouveau "European" I fancy.