umm isnt saying hitler designed the Volkswagon Beetle along the same lines of Al Gore inventing the internet? Yes, maybe he thought all germans should have reliable affordable transportation, but come on now. He wasn't an engineer. He was a maniac. The man was going to kill his own people after they failed to fulfil his plan by deystroying all of germany's crops and poisoning the soil.

actually, Hitler met with the head of Daimler-Benz. He drew up what he wanted the car to look like and gave it to Jakob Werlin. He told him that he wanted a car that was inexpensive, reliable and fuel efficient. He told Jakob to take his idea to the car manufacturers and figure everything out then make it. He said that he didn't know much about that stuff, so take and show it to people who did know. so that is how Hitler desigened the Volkswagen. Yep.. thank you very much. i'm right you're wrong. too bad i actually know my shit here, so don't try saying i'm wrong. this all took place in the summer of 1932. So no, saying Hitler invented the Volkswagen is NOT like Al Gore saying he invented the internet. I've actually seen Hitler's drawing of the car, the one he gave to Jakob. so booyahhh!

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"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

3000? i did a huge project on auschwitz not too long ago, i had over 30 sources and they all said 1.6 million people killed at aushwitz. that includes german sources, and even pro-hitler sources. somehow i doubt they would be trying to make him look worse than he was. and hitler did kill his people, thats what the holocaust was about. killing off all the jews in germany, and anyone who disagreed with him.

and i never said anything about blaming our personal problems on the government. but here in canada, the government is horrible. we dont have *any* free votes, its the parliament that decides who elects the prime minister, and the prime minister controls parliament. and i have gone to protests here, and you think they just let us? hell no. we get the shit kicked outta us by cops. some great freedom of expression there. and in case you havnt noticed all the pro-american rednecks and jocks who'll shoot you if you say anything bad about america. its because bush has pretty much said that if you badmouth america, your pro-terrorist. "your either with us, or with the terrorists" so if you dont like the government your a terrorist? and i never said we have completely lost those rights, but they are slowly being taken away. Bush is already greatly restricting freedom of information, which is fairly obvious if you look at all his new policies and proposed laws.

and you really think we're free? a few months ago i had a tri-hawk, and a cop interrogated me because i looked suspicious. i was just standing there talking to a friend and he came up to me and threw me into a wall, frisked me, took my jacket because it had an anarchy sign on it, told me how people like me should be shot, while his partner was trying to get my friend to tell them any illegal things i do? shit like that makes me blame the government, and makes me hate them. that may not be the worst oppression, but that doesnt mean it isnt oppression. and they do that all the time! i have a lot of punk friends in New York, and they get beat up by cops almost regularly. once in a while they might be caught with a joint, or loitering, but apart from that they arnt doing anything illegal. protests especially, almost always police brutality there.

the only reason i can get away with what i'm saying is anonymity. the reason people like jello biafra and noam chomsky sort of get away with it, is because they're famous. and i say sort of, because they are forced into an underground culture. they are both amazing writers, but rarely get any kind of spotlight because they are so controversial. you dont think theres much oppression going on in north america? read some of noam chomsky's books.

ya, i went to the station, talked to the officer in charge, and he just laughed. said i could file an official complaint, but that would just be ignored because "i'm obviously just making up lies because they took my jacket" (which they took because of an anarchy sign? wtf...) and then of course my dad got involved and said i shouldnt make a complaint because then they'd be more pissed at me. bastard...

and i wasnt talking about everyone who likes america, but i have personally run into quite a few rednecks and jocks (only those 2 social groups) who were "extremist pro-american". ready to kill to keep the "good name" of america.

well windead, i'm sorry that you had incorrect info in your project! i'm sure during your research you stumbled upon a man named Rudolph Hoss. if you don't remember who he is, he was the former Auschwitz commanding officer. He was in charge of it all there. Well, in 1946 the US submitted his "confession" to the Nuremberg trial. Turns out, that about 5 British officers who captured him, tortured him until he finally said he'd confess. He later said that he would have confessed to anything to stop the torture. An investigation was held, and turned out that what he said was true. He was tortured to the point where he finally did sign the confession without even reading it. He just got a pen and signed his name.

furthermore, if you look at aerial photos taken of the Auschwitz prisons, you can see that there are NO piles of dead bodies, nothing like that at all. Also, photos taken inside the camps "gas chambers" proove that there is NO way that those could have been used as a gas chamber at all. there was no way to filter out the gas after they supposedly gassed people. now, you'd have to have a way to filter out so that the people that went in after the 'gassings' could collect those dead bodies and not be killed by the gas as well. it would take at least 3 days for the gas to naturally dissapte. also, the room was so small that they couldn't have fit the 'hundreds of jews' in there. they could about 75 at the most. Many of the survivors from Auschwitz also said that they had never seen any evidence of mass killings and that they were treated pretty well there. Sure, some people died, but that's when Typhus was running rampid. Hitler ordered a seperate camp built to house those who were sick with it so that they couldn't spread it to the healthy people. It was known as Auschwitz IV. That is were the majority of people died, and that was because of they were very ill.

It has been proven by many people that there was nothing to suggest that Hitler or anyone associated with him had concocted some scheme to kill people in mass quantities. Hitler was very meticulous about accounting for every penny he spent. He had very detailed records kept. When those were attained, there was never anything to suggest that he had instituted some huge "killing camp" at all. No, even when all of his secret documents were seized, those never spoke of any mass killings either.

So you see, it was not Hitler's intent to kill millions of people. The day that a person arrived in any of his prisons, they were immediatly checked by the docter. If they were ill, they were sent to the hospital to get better. Many of them did! He did not make the sick people work at his prisons either. He only made the healthy people work. He even ordered that there be football (soccer) fields built so the prisoners had something recreational to do. Wow, really sounds like a man intent on slaughtering millions huh? No. There is NO evidence to coincide with that story and it has been rejected by the top historians and Holocuast researchers.

oh, and just so you know, Auschwitz wasn't in Germany. It was in Poland. All of those so called "death camps" you hear about are located in Poland. Oh, and if you've heard of Wolzek, too bad. There was NEVER any camp or prison ever named Wolzek. It was made up.

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"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

hahahaha.. oh BG! i like you too. and i'm sorry that you think that Hitler had some plan for mass extermination of his people. because it's simply not true. i'm not saying that nobody died at any of the camps, because they did. but the most that he ordered killed were 3000. they were executed for their crimes. much like we do it here in the US. people commit a heinous crime, they are executed for it. He did the same thing. that doesn't make him a monster. all the other people that died in those prisons died for other reasons. like typhus, i mentioned that earlier. also when the USSR came and tried to invade Poland, many of the people at the camps were killed. Hitler tried to have them all moved safely to other places, unfortunatly some of them didn't make it. Anne Frank for instance, she was at Auschwitz when the Russians invaded. She was moved safely to Bergen-Belsen. If Hitler wanted them all dead he wouldn't have cared if the Russians killed them or not. But he did care, so that is why they were moved. That is why they were hospitalized when they were ill. That's why when their sentence had been fulfilled, they were free to go.

I know what all of you have "learned" in school. Too bad most of it isn't true. Not only on this issue. People love to manipulate history and change things around. You know how Bush is trying to come up with reasons to go to war with Iraq? You see how he hasn't any real evidence against him, so he's pulling at truths and stretching them into lies? All so he can have a reason to go to war? Well, that is very much like what the Allied Forces did in WWII. They made things up, told lies, did everything they could just so that they could go to war with Germany. Let's it put it this way, when the Allied Forces held the Nuremberg Trials, they didn't care about the truth or evidence to support any claims made.

"The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence."

Article 19 of the Statutes of the International Military Tribunal (in reality: the Inter-allied Military Tribunal) at Nuremberg

"The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge, but shall take judicial notice thereof."

Article 21 of the Statutes

that alone proves that they knew there was no evidence to prove anything they were saying. so they said they didn't any evidence. wow.. really fair trial huh?

also - ya know.. i'm the only one here throwing out any specifics. i am mentioning specific names and places. those are facts. you can look those up. all you do to refute me is say that you did some project so you know i'm wrong. seems that i'm proving my point a lot better than any of you can prove yours.

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"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

No, no projects. I mean I know(in some cases knew-they're getting old), and am friends with these people.

I've heard the stories, seen the tatoos.Seen the pictures of friends and family never seen again.

I don't need to read any reports or documents or projects to know the truth fleshy, I simply listen to those that were there.

You're not saying that they're part of the conspiracy too now, are you?

Oh, and you want specifics. One woman, one who I've seen in tears talking about this was at Aushwitz. The place where your 30,000 died from disease because they were criminals. She was a child, her sisters were children, her parents had committed no crime. Her parents died.

Want more?

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"There is no end. There is no beginning. There is only the infinite passion of life." --Fellini

How about all the HItler debate gets put into a new forum. And rather than all you that care about this, not using facts. Each person take the facts that you know (LIST YOUR SOURCES) and then allow the other person to refute them. I am not interested in this, but its obviously getting OT in this thread and seems that some of you feel strongly about this. So take it elsewhere, debate it, give sources.evidence, (TBG list what was told by whom and where) and see where it comes out. Hell, it might even end up being constructive?

Windead: Sorry to hear what happened. I wouldn't report it though, b/c cops have too much power. It is just something about government that sucks sometime. The fact is, if you have enough things happen, keep them documented, have all your friends document it, and then give it to various news sources.

Think, the government doesn't like to make itself look bad, and by admitting what you did, it would. However, media loves to expose things like this, so you get all the "evidence" together and give to alot of media outlets. It becomes public knowledge and then the government has to do "Spin control" and go after the police, b/c not doing so, would make them look bad.

BG: sorry to hear about your woman that was in tears. really too bad because people were never gassed Auschwitz or anywhere else. You say her parents died.. how? you didn't mention how they died. Don't try to tell me that they were gassed, because it is impossible. There was no way any of the supposed "gas chambers" actually could have been just that. There have been many reports on this by gassing experts and by people who were there. Yes, even most of the Jewish people that were there admit that the gassings never happened. One woman even said she knew nothing of the gassings until she was released and heard about it years later!

you're right. a lot of the people in those prisons hadn't commited any crimes. they were exiled from Germany because they werre Jewish. Hitler didn't want the Jews in his country. So, they were "exported" to Poland and put into the camps. But then again, there were actual criminals that were also in those prisons. Those were the ones that were murdered.

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"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

Hitler was not a good leader. Hitler was a fucking sour painter that took advantage of a vulnerable and desparate country. It doesn't fucking matter whether they used gas or ovens, they were murdered. People that defend Hitler are usually full of shit. Fuck that.

I am so cool and smart because i say things like "bypass inversion."

Reason enough to go to WW2: Hitler wanted world domination and was killing people. If no one did anything the world would be alot worse.

No one has all the facts, so don't fucking say that you do. According to the State of the Union Address, Iraq has had 12 years to disarm. They found new nuclear warheads, sarin (sp?) gas, and anthrax. I doubt that Saddam was part of the AlQaida network, but that doesn't mean he isn't evil.

fleshy- i like you, but please don't do that shit.

Now, let's cut this hitler-stalin-bush bullshit and get back to the topic.

I think we value human life more and less. On the morning news before school, there are clips of a local woman who was in a car wreck, her dead body and everything. Stories about people being raped or kidnapped. Before I go to school, I see this. This is why I stopped watching the news.

We also try to save people that have terminal illnesses. We are taking the power away from natural selection.

We talk about how crazy it was that people would kill people they thought to be witches. And we think it is crazy that people killed people because they thought they were greedy and caused a depression.

No one can think entirely for themselves, because we are influenced by the things we see and hear. Otherwise, we wouldn't have any opinion period, it is ridiculous to think you can have an opinion on something you don't know about at all.

Aside from tbg and Learner, I thought most of the posts here were a waste of time to read. Most, not all.

I think that society is about as bad and good as it has almost always been, just in a bigger ratio. We can't cut out the good just to get rid of the bad. I think that is why there is a hell if there is a heaven. There has to be a reason for it to impossible for everything to be good without any bad somewhere else.

People are dying of aids and starvation in Africa while people here are buying condoms to keep from having children (as well as prevent the spread of std's) and suing fast food companies for making them too fat (thank God those radges lost). By here I mean America. It isn't some fantastic country, but it is pretty bad other places to make up for it.