I'm writing a desktop application that I'd like to deploy onto Windows, Macintosh, and Linux. I'm trying to pick the language that will give me the most conveniences, without setting timebombs that will go off down the road.

Here's what I think I know so far:

C++ Pros:

1) resulting code runs fastest, provided I am not a bonehead

2) most flexibility in memory management

3) Maximum difficulty in reverse engineering my object code, though there is nothing revolutionary or complex in what I plan to write.

4) Tools are rock-solid.

C++ Cons:

1) memory management is the biggest hassle, though garbage collection, usage of stack, pools, and smart-pointers, can mitigate this. 2) cross-platform programming requires much work for me to manage

Java Pros:

1) Cross platform programming handled

2) Memory management easier relative to C++

3) Lots of Tools, fairly mature

4) many years of advancements over C++

5) "Hot-Spot" compilation can make code run nearly as fast as C++

Java Cons:

1) 10 Megs of runtime need to be packed up with my app, since users might not be technical enough to install a JRE on their own

2) Code is more easily reverse engineered than C++, but how good are the obfuscators?

C# Pros:

1) Through Mono, I can deploy in lots of places

2) I get to use Developer Studio initially, and then use less capable IDE's for porting

3) Handles garbage collection, and does more for the programmer than C++.

4) Lots of libraries.

C# Cons:

1) I might have issues with Mono working exactly like Microsoft's runtime.

2) What did I forget?

C# Questions:

1) Does it compile to machine code, or bytecode? If bytecode, does that compile to machine code?

Python Pros:

1) Clean expressive syntax

2) Cross platform programming handled

3) Memory management easier relative to C++

4) many years of advancements over C++

5) More rapid iteration, since the projects needs not be compiled.

Python Cons:

1) Bytecode can be reverse engineered, but "Shed-Skin" would make the resulting code as fast and as difficult to reverse engineer as C++, BUT "Shed-Skin" is a work in progress, and if the lead-programmer dies, I would have to pick up the slack. I might also need to find bugs myself.

All tech comparisons ... that is a bad idea. You need to include non-technical issues in your comparison. IT does not live for IT alone.

Consider comparison of things like ...
Time to market (develop)
Ease of user interface (from the user perspective)
Updates and maintenance
Lowering cost by reducing the time for additional developers to come up to speed.
Difficulty in troubleshooting / debugging
etc

Where are you coming from for such a harsh comment? I teach C++, perl, and assembly language for my company employees. I have an M.S. in computer science. I have programmed in Java [being the project lead for an industrial grade J2EE transaction manager for several years] and have debugged Python code. I thought the poster was headed down the right track.

However, I didn’t hear anything about graphical requirements for the application. That certainly should be considered.

C# does not compile to byte code, like java it compiles to an intermediate code, called MSIL, and you’ll need to make sure the .NET runtime is on any machine that wants to run it. Unless C# has a native compile option I am unaware of.

I would never rely on Microsoft if your goal is to be multiplatform compatible, you are shooting yourself in the foot before you get out of the gate if that is your goal.

Your only serious options are a native language like C, C++ etc, and utilizing Macros in your compiler to have one set of source to compile for multiple environments, or Java. Yes, you can use a scripting language like a Python, but this doesn’t resolve your decompiling issues, performance speed concerns, or your need to make sure that the runtime is on the machine.

Java is the only real “language” option you have if you are doing serious stuff. If you are doing things that a scripting language will work for you, Python is fine but you aren’t going to get speed or escape the dependence of needing the run time, or safe compiled code.

If what you are trying to do is something that a scripting language can handle, pick your poison, ones the same as another as far as I’m concerned. If you want a full featured language with cross platform compatability, “write once run anywhere” java is the only serious option. If throughput or low level operations are needed, then you are talking C or C++ or something that compiles directly native language and you’ll need to compile different runtimes for different platforms and keep your source code maintainable with all those differences that may be needed.

If you program using “objects” and the paradigm fits the application, then you might be quite happy with Java. On the other hand, if you aren’t comfortable with the object straight jacket and/or it doesn’t fit the application, then you might be better off with C++ where you get to make your own choices. It looked to me like python was also more flexible in that regard.

I was saying use C++ with Qt. Thats one of our main development enviromnents in the seismic industry.

What I was pointing out is that with Qt, nearly all the cons of C++ are eliminated. You don't have to work to do cross-platform, you don't have the garbage collection issues, you don't have to deal with half-thought-out STL methods, and you get a huge amount of mature classes with elegant binding through moc, not to mention the new dev tools. And now since it's LGPL, you don't have to pay to make a product with it.

20
posted on 07/06/2009 1:13:35 PM PDT
by dan1123
(Liberals sell it as "speech which is hateful" but it's really "speech I hate".)

Stick with Java if you want to run on multiple platforms. Java is fine unless you are doing an amazing number of calculations, transforms, etc. I personally think C# amd VB .NET are much easier to use and have a superior IDE, but only really work on Windows boxes (yeah, I know, there are emulators and whatnot ...)

I’ve been looking at some of the functional languages, like Erlang and Scala and F#, that supposedly will help improve performance on multi-core CPUs. Not sure about Erlang, what I like about Scala, is that it runs on the JVM, and seems to get the best of both worlds (OO and Functional programming).

And of course now with Oracle owning Java, it will be interesting to see what they do with JVM(s), which in the end, matters more than which language is used to generate the byte code.

Between Java and c#. Python is too fast and loose with the typing for me. Call me anal retentive, but I require strong typing.

Java has obvious advantages, especially vendor support for multi-platform, which is a big one. But c# was designed to address problems with Java, Delphi and others, thus IMHO comes out a much cleaner language. I also think c# has better data types and has a better generics implementation. The standard framework also has a ton of toys.

But add a problem for c#, your users won’t necessarily have the framework version you need. Many older systems are stuck at 1.1, which, trust me, you don’t want to program in. You need to go at least 2.0, which will entail a framework update for some of your users. So you’re possibly stuck in the same place as Java on that front, although the newer frameworks will install through Windows Update.

Answer to the question on c#, it compiles to a “common intermediate language” which is then compiled to native code by the CLR. It can cache this native version to make later runs faster. Basically, just like Java.

When you compile to native code, there's no difference. Even with bytecode and today's fast machines the difference is negligible. The difference may be perceptible in computationally intensive stuff like fluid mechanics, graphics, FEM etc..

If one wanted to start to learn computer programing what would be the best language to start with to build a foundation for learning how to write programs?

Python hands down. It is clear and doesn't get in the way, and doesn't saddle you with a bunch of concepts before you write your first line of code. The concepts you learn with Python are applicable to every major programming language you may want to move to in the future.

34
posted on 07/06/2009 2:57:27 PM PDT
by dan1123
(Liberals sell it as "speech which is hateful" but it's really "speech I hate".)

I apologize to many who have said good things about Java for not pinging them all, first. Etiquette says I should...

If your application requires SPEED, or is an application that will be opened and left open for long periods of time, you MUST NOT use Java. I have found that ALL of the programs on my computer that use Java eat more and more time and memory all the time. Many of those programs I like, but I find I have to eventually purge them from the system, which is often not convenient. Quite a few programs look great when I fire them up and test them, and as long as I don’t put too much of a demand on them, they perform OK. However, when I start using them in a professional type sense, the time penalty explodes in at least a quadratic manner with the data requirements. Often, they bog down so much that I have to kill them using the task manager to get use of my computer back. If you are only going to be using short lists of data and have limited time requirements the program will be used, Java may be fine.

I’m not familiar with C#, and Python may have some of the same limitations as Java, though I’m not as familiar with that.

35
posted on 07/06/2009 3:28:11 PM PDT
by AFPhys
((.Praying for President Bush, our troops, their families, and all my American neighbors..))

The feature is there mostly for geeks who get off on numbers and specs. Typically, they wear thick glasses, are underweight, have no spouses or girlfriends.. and live in their moms' basements. Most also voted for Obama.

The feature is there mostly for geeks who get off on numbers and specs. Typically, they wear thick glasses, are underweight, have no spouses or girlfriends.. and live in their moms' basements. Most also voted for Obama.

I think I've seen them on slashdot, reddit, and digg.

39
posted on 07/06/2009 4:44:20 PM PDT
by dan1123
(Liberals sell it as "speech which is hateful" but it's really "speech I hate".)

That’s not strong typing, it’s duck typing. You didn’t have to declare a, b and c since they took on an assumed type of whatever you assigned to them. It then got caught during runtime, not compile time.

When I program I would wonder is a an int? Maybe it want it to be a byte, decimal, floating point, small (2-byte) int, large (8-byte) int, signed or unsigned.

Duck typing is not necessarily inferior, it’s just a style of programming I don’t prefer. But I do think a programmer should become proficient in strongly-typed design before he goes off with something like Python and produces a horrible, unmaintainable mess.

My primary language was COMPASS, the Assembly Language on Control Data Mainframes. I supported the COBOL and Fortran compilers as part of my job as a Operating Systems programmer. Now I use C and Java mostly with a little bit of Fortran.

The teaching part came in when my company brought in a bunch of university students as interns (co-ops). The ones that got sent to the MIS department had to learn COBOL. The math and science interns used Fortran, and my buddy taught that. Back in those days you could look at a dump and debug a program rather quickly. I swear my boss could look at a dump and reconstruct the Fortran code.

48
posted on 07/07/2009 7:23:17 AM PDT
by OrioleFan
(Republicans believe every day is the 4th of July, democrats believe every day is April 15)

Back in those days you could look at a dump and debug a program rather quickly. I swear my boss could look at a dump and reconstruct the Fortran code.

I've written little BASIC programs without an interactive debugger--I mean, it was an Apple II after all--but I can't imagine having to write any serious software today without a debugger. I have tremendous respect for those who did. It feels like I'm cheating somehow. :-)

50
posted on 07/07/2009 7:40:01 AM PDT
by TChris
(There is no freedom without the possibility of failure.)

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