Are Germans As Uptight And Anally Retentive As They've Been Portrayed For Over A Century?

Are they very fastidious? What's their culture like? What was the culture like throughout the 20th century? What's with everything needing to be 'just so'? Is that true? There needs to be order?

[quote]What was the culture like throughout the 20th century?
It was rocky, I think you could say.

very detail-oriented and Serious. they like to drink and have fun, but are very meticulous about it.

worked%20there%20for%20years

What R2 said. I'd add that Bavarians and Austrians tend to have more of a sense of humor than their northern counterparts.

BonniePrinceCharlie

Pretty rigid folks.

[quote] What's their culture like? What was the culture like throughout the 20th century?
Other than starting two World Wars resulting in the devastation and murder of entire generations, and the systematic building of over forty thousand concentration camps that almost completely eradicated the Jews, you mean?

R3
Most Germans think Bavarians are nuts and not really funny.

Anonymous

I haven't been but they certainly have a language that sounds rigid. My mother took a tour through Germany, Austria and Switzerland. The German guide brusquely said "you VILL enjoy dis" not "we hope you enjoy this". It was an order and she said he sounded like a jailer.

Yes, it's true, generally. I lived in Munich for three years and I've got to say, the peaceful order is dream-like and it makes the USA seem like a third world nightmare upon arrival. There's ups and down to both cultures. I definitely like the rule and etiquette driven side of Munich. However, there is the inflexible and stubborn side that can be annoying.
They are very rule driven, even asinine rules. One could see how Hitler so easily manipulated them into the atrocities. The Germans are generally very good and abiding, thus the exploitation.
My paternal and maternal grandparents are German immigrants. They got out before the war.

Is it true they practically stroke out if someone jaywalks?

[quote]Is it true they practically stroke out if someone jaywalks?
In larger cities, no. In smaller towns, nanas will curse you on the street if you jaywalk.
What fascinates me about Germans is their strong sense of regimented order, coupled with extrodinarily lefty political views. Politically they're the most progressive, eco-friendly, crunchy-granola people in Europe. The current ruling conservative party (FDP) could be interchanged with U.S. Democrats.
Financially they're quite conservative, of course, in that they avoid any form of credit like the plague.

I worked in Germany for five years. Yes, they are uptight and anal-retentive. At least they recognize it, though, and some can even laugh about it. The joke among Germans is that in France anything that isn't forbidden is allowed while in Germany anything that isn't allowed is forbidden.
My landlady insisted on cleaning my apartment every 6 months or so. I'm tidy and by no means a slob, but she said an American man could never clean as well as a German woman.
There's also a dreary what-about-the-children streak to German culture. They'll jaywalk like crazy except when children are around. In front of kids, they wait for the light to change and then charge across the street like stormtroopers.

Is that why they have such gross, freaky porn R11? The Japanese have a similar rigid culture and they have the weirdest porn.

pretty much, yes

I will never forget my lesson in German street crossing, r9. On my first day living in Munich I went out for a walk, being used to NY, of course I ignored the walk/don't walk signals. It was on a particularly quiet street that I encountered a red don't walk, and of course I went walking across anyway...this child who was with his father and mother at the curb started shouting at me, "Rot die Farbe, Rot die Farbe!" (red is the color) They start young!
I had a bicycle police chase me one afternoon for riding my bicycle on the sidewalk, (the street was torn up and muddy with construction) he kept blowing his whistle, I just peddled faster and escaped.
Side note, the roadways and sidewalks are built impeccably, the Germans are of the mindset, a job worth doing is a job worth doing right. That's another shock when you come back to the USA. It feels dirty and potholed.

Many Germans are VERY kinky, R12. A lot are into piss and scat. I've had some bad experiences that give a new meaning to "surprise anal". I've also had some laughable experiences with Germans: otherwise very masculine guys who like to wear pantyhose, guys who like to wear gas masks during sex (huh?), guys who have to be home by midnight on Saturday because they can't have sex on Sunday, etc, etc. I'm not saying there aren't freaky men all over the world; there certainly are. But there seems to be a higher percentage of kinky sex freaks in Germany than in any other country I've lived in.
I would recommend a person NEVER go home with a German unless you're really sure what the person is into.

R11

They have huge cocks.

HUGE!

I love Germany with one exception: I wish they'd start circumcising their boys.

R18, guess what?
They are not barbarians like the Americans so that will never happen.

i´m german, any questions?
proof: ä, ö, ü, ß

R20, can you do that because you have a German keyboard? It drives me nuts that Datalounge does not permit umlauts.

R8 I have relatives in Munich and they are so laid back compared to Northern Germans. They are pretty friendly in comparison to them as well.
One could say that this regimented order created a Nazi based society but what did the eccentric and charming Brits do? Have a nearby part of their Empire(Ireland) function as a colony in where the majority of the population was 3rd class citizens in their own country. Catholics were not even allowed to own land or serve in the British Parliament. Let's not talk about the potato famine(a holocaust that could have been stopped) either. Or the massacres in India and elsewhere.So Germany is not the only country with blood on its hands.
That being said the new generation has very little use for racism and the like. Are they disciplined...hell yeah ,annoyingly so. However it is a trip to hear Americans go there and be shocked by the cleanliness and the order of their society versus this one. It''s a rude awakening.

yes, i have a german keyboard:-)

I work in a German accounting office. They are all unfailingly polite and always smiling. You'd think a bunch of German accountants would be a bunch of bores, but they're actually quite friendly and funny. It's a small firm and every day at 12:30 precisely, they all stop what they're doing and go to the break room to have lunch together. No one eats lunch at his/her desk.

Anal-retentive? Once you start paying attention to their profanity and their humor, an amazing percentage of both involves shit, shitting, and assholes. Think of the way we use "fuck" as an all purpose filler word, then multiply it X100.
And I've said this before, but if you have sex with a German you better enjoy it, because it will be EXACTLY the same the next time, and the time after that, and the time after that . . .

Is Germany an expensive place to live? I've never been but it strikes me as a place where everything would cost a fortune. How do Berlin and Munich compare to New York and LA in terms of cost?

Berlin's still pretty damn cheap compared to Western Europe.
R20: I have a question. Is it true that affectionate physical contact is nearly unheard of in German families?

[quote]I had a bicycle police chase me one afternoon for riding my bicycle on the sidewalk, (the street was torn up and muddy with construction) he kept blowing his whistle, I just peddled faster and escaped.
This made me laugh. The German version of a high speed car chase.

The are regional stereotypes among the German people. The "uptight and anally retentive" stereotype comes from the Prussian tendency towards fastidiousness, obsession with cleanliness, obstinacy, and (past) militarism.
Berliners are liberal and tolerant, but come across as brash, direct, and a bit rude
Rhinelanders are good-natured and convivial
People from Hamburg are reserved, uppity, and bourgeois, but they're fairly tolerant and open-minded. Upscale Hamburg is the "most British city in Germany."
Swabians are industrious but super stingy
Sauerlanders are a dour bunch
and the Bavarians are stereotyped as conservative back country hicks who think they're better than everyone. Not for nothing are they called "the Texans of Germany."

Germans from Missouri are the most rigid of all.

I'm a control freak so I think I would love Germany. I'll bet THEY never just 'drop in' uninvited. (That's a big debate on another thread).

R33 has her panties in a bunch.

r34 probably actually wears panties.

Me too, Germany really is a top destination for me. Can't wait. I love law and order, standards, competence, and hygiene.
Those who willingly travel to the third world seem like dolts to me.

Being liberal and tolerant doesn't really mean anything if you are also rude and uptight

R29. Did you watch that with the English subtitles? It was funny. And the boy is a cutie and knows it.

I wouldn't call all Germans rude, I would instead say that they have 'instructional' personalities, and love to advise you on how to improve things.
When they come to the US they are very respectful and spend money here. They do love to criticize however, and aren't shy about telling us where we've gone wrong.
They all have ideas on how to improve our transportation, hotel accomodations, airports, and supermarkets. They all seem to carry the Asperger's gene and observe every little detail about our lives.
They are very racially conscious, that hasn't gone away. I wouldn't say that they are racist, but interested in the differences. They study our faces and try to figure out our ancestries.
They are good listeners and LOVE the Wild West history and culture.

R29 /R35 is a rape apologist.
No really, check out the Steubenville thread.

[quote]Me too, Germany really is a top destination for me. Can't wait. I love law and order, standards, competence, and hygiene.
Try Switzerland. It's Germany with chocolate.

I would say Swiss men, R42. I can only speak for German-Switzerland, but there seems to be a great degree of hotness in that particular pool. I don't know Germany very well, but from what I could tell by watching German TV back in the day...they're nothing to write anywhere about.

German culture is very different depending on what part of the country we are talking about. Generally speaking, there is absolutely nothing uptight and anally retentive about Berliners. They are among the most chill, hip letting it all hang out people in Europe.

R44,
thank you for your answer. In the above Munich video, every man there looks gorgeous, and I'm thinking they are natives.
The Swiss men are shorter and stockier I think, but with good skin and a stoic virility.

The Amercian Observer

I' noticed that some Germans are very dark complected. Are they the Bavarians?
Also, there does seem to be a pointy nose and rather piched face on many Germans, and it gives them the all-related look. is this regional as well?
The good-looking blondes appear to be from Munich.
The Berliners were once Prussians and they were supposed giants (Teutonic Knights) and were fierce warriors. They are the tall blondes, no?

R5, Germany did not start World War One and the world population of Jews was never almost completely eradicated.
Even if fifty percent of the world's Jews had perished in WWII (which they didn't) that is not an almost complete eradication.

R47 Berlin is very mixed today. Also The Prussians were originally a Baltic people related to the Latvians and The Estonians.There was even a Prussian language that was related to the Baltic languages related to Latvian Estonian etc so on that is now extinct. The Teutonic Knights conquered them BUT they have a mix of Baltic and Germanic ancestry not solely Germanic.
R48 The majority of Jews in Europe were eradicated by the Nazis there's no way around that.67 percent of European Jews were killed in the concentration camps.Europe had one third of the world's Jews.Germany didn't start WW1 but they wrecked a lot of havoc during that war not to mention destroying,ethically cleansing and fucking up Europe during WW2.

Considering the nature of the OP's question, I have to ask -- is our webmaster German?

[quote]67 percent of European Jews were killed in the concentration camps.Europe had one third of the world's Jews
Using your math that means that 2 out of every 9 Jews in the world were killed in World War Two. Which means that 7 out of 9 of the world's Jews survived World War Two. That is not anywhere near a
"complete eradication of the Jews."

[quote]I' noticed that some Germans are very dark complected. Are they the Bavarians?
Uh, no. They're probably not even Germans.

R51 It is nearly an eradication of Europe's Jews. Had Hitler and his cabal been successful there would have been no Jews left in Europe.So are you apologizing for that steaming piece of shit,Hitler and his band of assholes? Fuck them!
R52 There are dark Germans. Eric Braeden from Young and The Restless is from German and could pass for an Italian. sure there are Turks, Greeks and Italians in Germany BUT some ethnic Germans are dark.

Uptight in Germany does not mean the same as uptight in the US. They have no issues with public nudity, for example, and you will find naked people frolicking in crowded city parks.

How are they handling their immigrant problem? Aren't there a lot of Turks who simply refuse to assimilate?

I have several German friends whom I visit every 2 years or so. They're generally fun-loving and among the most hospitable people in the world. However, Germans tend to be firm in their opinions and very judgmental. There's no use in arguing with them because they always think they're right...and that can be frustrating.
But what Germans lack in warmth they make up for in generosity.

Europe had two-thirds of the world's Jews before Hitler, and two-thirds of European Jews were killed.

I echo the posters above who think Germans can be very kinky. I think it has to do with how uptight they can be in person, especially the people from the Northern parts (Prussia, Hamburg, Bremen).
I like Berliners the least of all Germans. Even more than citizens of other major cosmopolitan cities (New York, London, LA, Paris) they think their city is the ONLY city in the world and that everyone else in the universe wants to live there (or is insane if they don't).
People from southern Germany are my favorite--the Bavarians have good senses of humor and have all the characteristics that people tend to love about Germans (the friendliness, the Gemütlichkeit), and yet are less uptight than Northern Germans.
The most disconcerting thing about all germans--ALL Germans--is that they speak incredibly directly and will not tiptoe around topics. Some people find this very refreshing and some people find it very rude; I feel both ways about it.
On the whole I like Germans (despite the fact Berliners can be a pain in the ass).

Who's had a German guy? Dish!

Are straight Germans into anal?

The Germans were smart enough to send Walmart packing back in 2006,or so.

[quote]It drives me nuts that Datalounge does not permit umlauts
This changed long ago. All sorts of diacritical marks and character sets are possible now. Even Chinese! 不
I lived in Germany 30 years ago as an exchange student. I was 16 and just discovering the joys of homosex. Every hot guy I hooked up with was Turkish.

Germany was also smart enough to send Scientology packing as well R61.

I know, r61, and that in itself shows that German's understand the importance of the middle class. They wouldn't "change laws" so WalMart could treat people like shit. Unlike the money hungry USA, that bends over backwards to let WalMart decimate humans and other businesses.
The USA could use a some German Lessons.

*Germans

I live in the Bay Area and there are now 2 schools teaching the German way of education for kids. Extremely popular schools one in Palo Alto & the other in Berkeley. Germans learn about 4 or 5 languages in their PUBLIC schools. They don't put up with undisciplined children either.
And I go to Germany yearly, you can get on the train, kids as young as 8 are going home alone, and in safety. It's a safe place compare to anywhere USA.
Also the young kids get out at noon, but after 4th grade or so they get out at 5:30 or 6:30.
I love Germany a lot and I would live there if we could afford it. I'm Jewish btw.

How difficult is it to get German citizenship?

Waldorf School, R66?

[quote]How difficult is it to get German citizenship?
Very. Up until recently, I believe you had to prove German ancestry to claim citizenship.
Keep in mind that the Turks started working there in the 1960's. There have been 2-3 generations of Turks born in the country who weren't granted citizenship until very recent.
Having said that, I've met quite a few Americans who work there on permits. If you have valuable specialist skills it's a bit easier to work there.

My parents are Germans who immigrated to Canada after the war and found other Germans to associate with.
I don't know if they fit all the stereotypes, but my Mom is warm, loving, and friendly. A wonderful cook and very affectionate. Lots of hugs and kisses in my house growing up. Her people are from around Heidelberg. She instilled in us a love of good food and gracious entertaining. Also, art. She was a talented seamstress and rug-hooker. She loved crafty things like that.
My father is also loving and friendly, but a little more reserved and suspicious. Very dry wit and sense of humour. Always ready with a funny or cutting remark. His people are from the north, around Bremen. He instilled in us a love of music.
Both of them were very particular about order and cleanliness. Our house was spotless and our yard was beautifully manicured and perfect. The car was always spotless and gleaming. My Dad's workshop (he loved to do woodwork) was fastidiously clean and all his tools were organized just so.
They were strict with us kids about things like good manners, being polite and punctual, clean, well-dressed, and presenting a good face to the world. But were relaxed about things like staying out late or the things we wanted to do or were interested in. There were no restrictions about what we could read, watch on TV, or the music we could listen to. They never tried to steer any of us in a particular direction. They were loving and indulgent and we all turned out fairly well.
Anyway, those are the two Germans I know and love best.

Most Americans have German ancestry--I'm thinking mass immigration here.

r68 no. It is the German International School. Isn't the Waldorf school some kind of hippie dippie type of school where there are no rules, kind of Montessori-like?
German International School is very much like a school in Germany. Not hippie dippie at all.

R66
Where do you get your information? It's true that the GISSV is a great school, albeit quite expensive. But I think you're confusing the rest with French schools. The school day is usually ends around 2:00pm, just certain schools have longer hours. Also, Germans don't learn 4-5 languages, 2-3 is the norm, some even learn only one (which would be English).
Overall, Germany is a pretty good place to live.

I don't know about the rest of Germany, but when I went to Berlin last year, almost everyone I met was very nice and didn't seem uptight at all.

Waldorf schools aren't hippie-dippie, but they have that reputation. Which is why so many parents pull their children out after a year or two. Actually, graduates of Waldorf schools tend to major in Math and Science rather than the arts.

Didn't Rudolf Steiner start the Waldorf Schools?
Isn't it all about philosophy and science, with a touch of European eccentricity?

Yes, Rudolf Steiner was involved in starting the first Waldorf Schools. The were started because it was felt that children in particular were disconnected to the rhythms of nature in the industrial world. The first school was at the Waldorf cigarette factory. The schools emphasize and appreciation of nature and the rhythms of the seasons, along with music and science. Art more draftmanship than creative. A lot of it involves copying the teachers example- exactly. The other thing specific to a Waldorf school is that you have the same teacher from kindergarten to 8th grade.

[quote]Europe had two-thirds of the world's Jews before Hitler, and two-thirds of European Jews were killed.
OK, let's try some more arithmetic. Europe had 6 out of every 9 Jews in the world prior to WWII. If two out of every three European Jews were killed by the Nazis, then that means that 4 out of every 9 Jews in the world were killed in WWII, so 5 out of every 9 Jews in the world survived WWII. In other words, a majority of the world's Jews survived the war.
Once again, the arithmetic doesn't add up to the "almost complete eradication" of the world's Jews. Nor for that matter does killing 2/3rds of Europe's Jews equal an eradication. It represents a huge thinning of the herd to be sure, but it's still not close to a complete eradication. Three million surviving Jews were certainly enough to continue to replicate and preserve the future population of Jews in Europe.
I am neither defending Hitler and the Germans nor am I denying or minimizing the Holocaust. I am simply doing the math based on information provided here by other posters. If arithmetic is anti-semitic (as R53 seems to think it can be) then I don't know what we're supposed to do about it.

[quote]when I went to Berlin last year, almost everyone I met was very nice and didn't seem uptight at all.
When everything is going well, they're perfectly fine. It's when the plan starts to go wrong that you need to give them space.
Hang around a train station in Germany some time and watch--if the train is due at 18:36, they start lining up at 18:34. At 18:35 they are at the spot on the platform where their car is supposed to stop (according to the chart posted on every platform). At 18:35:30 they are looking down the track to see the arriving train.
If 18:36 comes and goes without a train, watch for them to all start checking their watches, scanning the schedule board, and generally behaving like a herd of zebra who just got a faint whiff of lion scent. By 18:40 traces of disgust changing to anger appear, and by 18:45 they're in full diva mode.
It never gets that far though, because DB knows their passengers too well. An announcement is made that the train will now be arriving at 18:50 (and why, it's vital that DB explain WHY the train is delayed), they're instantly calm again, and the lining up and scanning the track rituals start all over again.
Trust me, I've lived with one for 25 years now, and even the most routine trip requires enough planning to invade France.

Thanks to all for posting. It sounds like I'd absolutely love living in Germany, especially the Rhineland or Berlin.
More, please! I wonder what Hamburg is like? Is the media capital a 24/7 kind of place? I have friends who lived in Frankfurt, which they said was pleasant enough, but dull.

R51/R78: Are you of german ancestry. Cause you sure as hell are anal thing down pat.
Talk about fucking splitting hairs. Jesus, give it a fucking rest already.

lol, R81!

R81 is exactly right. The Germans (except for skinheads, political radicals, the wealthy and the latter-day "noble") are remarkably sensible and organized. They believe, when they're sober, that they have made a compact with the Universe to maintain order, reasonableness and decorum, so long as everything in the Universe holds up its end of the bargain. And if it doesn't, well then, anything is possible.
Recall that Hitler and WWII occurred primarily because the Germans decided they had been taken advantage of unfairly in the WWI Armistice.
The need for order is there because under the surface Germans are wild tribes of emotional, irrational, passionate confusion.
And when they drink (thank heavens) it's usually the weepy, happy, love-everyone, sit-on-my-lap, let's-sing aspects of their emotionalism that comes out. I mean, have you seen the size of the average beer stein or glass at a beer hall or bucket at a street fair?
This all applies to ethnic Germans in general, but less so for the Austrians and German-Swiss.

[quote]More, please! I wonder what Hamburg is like? Is the media capital a 24/7 kind of place? I have friends who lived in Frankfurt, which they said was pleasant enough, but dull.
I've never lived in Hamburg, but as a tourist, it's a pain in the ass because there's always a body of water between where you are and where you want to go.
Frankfurt is greatly underrated. The central city is really boring, especially at night and on weekends (think Chicago Loop), but if you get out into the neighborhoods, especially around the colleges, it's a fine city to kill time in.
My favorite city is Cologne, but I love the Rhineland, especially the Middle Rhine Valley. The Ruhr doesn't get the credit it deserves either.

What about Dusseldorf natives?

Munich is one of the most beautiful cities in the world, very high on the world's quality of life index. It is, however, the most expensive city in Germany. I like the Bavarians, they are very laid back and less hysterical than Americans.

^ And like the city, the airport, (MUC) Franz Josef Strauss Is incredibly orderly and hushed. Decorum!

My%20People

Are there any major social problems in Germany? A lot of the posts here make it sound like a utopia, but surely it must have its issues.
I loved R81's post, very funny.
Germany sounds like a country I would enjoy living in, I'm tired of watching my own dysfunctional country self implode.

R54, Rick Steves did his travel show on Germany, and in Frankfurt they showed all these nude sunbathers along the Main. Rick mentioned how the businessmen in the glass towers nearby, bosses and employees, would come down to the river during their lunch break, strip down and sunbathe in the nude, along with the college students between classes, and people from all walks of life. Nudity was no big deal for them. I thought how odd to have seen your co-workers, bosses and teachers naked. Can you look at your boss or university professor the same way after you've seen their bits?

Depends on which part of Germany. People in the north are a bit uptight and Bavarians love to drink a bit too much. Places like Berlin and Cologne are fun and easygoing. Germans seem to make a real effort in sustainability. Energy consumption in electrical appliances is constantly being updated and improved. Same goes for architecture and cars.

There is something wrong upstairs with Germans. My mother's side is German and bipolar disorder seems to be the family heirloom, including ne.
My great grandmother emigrated to America from Germany and met another German-American here in the 1910's. He worked in a brewery and was merciless to her, beating her, emotionally abusive. She went nuts and tried to kill her kids (including my grandmother) and was put in an asylum until she died at the hospital in the early 70's.

Colonel%20Klink

"There is something wrong upstairs with Germans."
Not more so than Americans. I've lived in the US for many years and it seems that most Americans are clinically depressed but putting on a manic HIGH HOW ARE YOU I'M GREAT SHOW nonstop (I guess that would depress me, too).

What's the experience like for non-white tourists? I've been thinking of taking a European vacation in a couple of years.

I'm Indian, btw and my partner is a latina.

R96%20-%20curious%20lesbian

R96
I am sure in most European countries you don't have to be worried about anything. Just don't expect everybody to speak English.

Anonymous

Sounds like heaven.

in%20China

Yeah, r95, and about 50 million of those crazy Americans claim German ancestry. Germany is the largest ancestry group in the country.

That%27s%20why%20Americans%20are%20nuts.

R98, so which countries are relatively English friendly? My partner is much better at picking up languages than me, and she's pretty decent at French too, and obviously, spanish.
One of these days I'll have more time to learn human languages rather than machine ...

R96

r191 Finland, Sweden, Denmark are examples.

At my hotel room in Berlin I found cobwebs, at the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church I saw shit on the sidewalk, in Dresden, a city that is supposed to be known for its beauty, despite its having been bombed, I saw some of the ugliest buildings I've ever seen, and I am from Erie, Pennsylvania, one of the ugliest, most potholed cities in the United States. The Germans I dealt with in their own country were as varied in their temperament as any other country except that there seemed to be somewhat less outward, casual humor although on the train I took from Berlin to Frankfurt there were some kids laughing, talking loudly and swearing in German as they played cards to pass the time. On the whole I don't think Germans are any more irritable or "uptight" than Americans or English.

Anonymous

R97
You should have lots of fun in Holland, France, Germany, and most Scandinavian Countries. Berlin is one of the biggest gay places in Europe, has an openly gay major. Pretty much all big cities in these countries are fine with openly gay couples. In other places I wouldn't be openly gay. Certain people in Italy and Spain are very religious. Europe is a great place, PACKED with culture and live! Take at least 2 months to visit if you have the time.

Anonymous

Time AND money r104, unless you have some special way of getting by on your good looks....

Anonymous

r73 I was not talking about GISSV (the American German schools) but the actual German schools in Germany. I am not very familiar with GISSV in the Bay Area other than what I read.
I have been on extended trips to Germany yearly and I can say without hesistation that the young kids get on the trains around noon & go home at that time which is verified with all the Germans I know (& I know a lot).
GISSV probably has a different time frame than the Germany school students. In Germany they do learn about 4 languages - German, English, French. The Wikipedia link is enlightening, each area of Germany has it's own requirements, many require Latin and Ancient Greek as well as English & German. So yes, they do learn 4-5 languages at school.
I'm sure people that are German Dataloungers will enlighten us further but it will depend on what area they lived in for schul. (school).
I'm not sure if GISSV requires that many languages. If I had kids and the money I would definitely send them there or at least pay to get German-style homeschooling.
Hope that helps. FWIW, I usually stay in the Frankfurt area due to working for a yearly conference. Apparently where I go is one of the highest income level areas in all of Germany if not the highest.

r96 / r97 on the plane to Germany I met a wonderful kind Indian airline steward in business class (he was my waiter/steward). He lived in Germany and absolutely loved it so I think you'll be fine.
Besides one of the things I've sort of noticed in Germany lately is that white Germans actually really like black brown people now - think Heidi Klum, Michael Fassbender. It's quite trendy there.
I absolutely adore Germany and agree with whomever said that I want to live there since this country is going to shitsville.

[quote]Germans learn about 4 or 5 languages in their PUBLIC schools. They don't put up with undisciplined children either.
If only. I went to a German university as part of my degree course. A fellow student decided to spend her time teaching while over there instead. Her school was anything but disciplined. After her class had set fire to the classroom for the third time she had a nervous breakdown and had to return home. She never really got over that experience.
Strip off the stereotypes and Germans are like any other Europeans. Some you treasure and the others you could cheerfully annihilate.

r51 & r78: You're really bad at math. In your first post you claim that 67% is equal to 2 out of 9. In your second post, it's allegedly 4 out of 9.
Guess what? It's actually 6 out of 9. Meanwhile, back in the 80's I read that the average age of Jews in Germany was 70-something. And a professor of mine in college was asked by a German university to lecture on the Jewish experience in Germany. Her first statement was that nothing reflects the Jewish experience in Germany like the fact that they had to import a Jew from the U.S. to talk about it.
You're obviously someone who is trying minimize/ trivialize the Holocaust. Are you a big Mel Gibson fan, perhaps?

[quote]You're really bad at math. In your first post you claim that 67% is equal to 2 out of 9. In your second post, it's allegedly 4 out of 9.
If you were paying attention, you would have noticed that I based my calculations on the information provided by other posters. I haven't made any particular comment on the Holocaust except to point out that I am not denying it. I am just doing arithmetic. Any agenda beyond the numbers is something you brought to it.

R78

R108's post does seem closer to the truth than many of the other posts in this thread. Germans, like anyone can be very nice, but Germany is not what everyone is making it out to be.
R90, you can get a good picture of German social life by looking up the news. I'm sure you'll be able to find sources that provide English translation.
Honestly, if you can afford it, Switzerland is so much nicer. There is an added difficulty with language, but I would really only advise either French- or German-speaking parts of the country.

Really R100? I would have assumed Irish since they breed like rabbits (or did until fairly recently).

Mostly%20Irish%2C%20some%20German

Cincinnati, Ohio is a German city. Enough said. BAD festivals. Conservative, uptight Republicans. Over-the-Rhine (yes, THAT Rhine) is a dangerous ghetto area that the city has tried to make happen now for 30 years. Race riots about twelve years ago shut it down and sent it into reverse as a crime-laden hellhole. It now has some trendy bars and stores and housing. And is STILL a shithole. The German influence is everywhere and permeates the zeitgeist of the city, the ghosts of all those Nazis haunting every historical structure and beerhall, apparently. My impression of Germans is big, blond sweaty, angry assholes who stink of sausage and sweat.

R106
"In Germany they do learn about 4 languages - German, English, French"
????
Having German in school in Germany means literature, poetry, sometimes philosophy.
Only in higher education you are required to learn French or Latin additional to English. English is mandatory for every school and at least for 6 years.

Anonymous

R113
Thats just what happens with some good German people when they migrate to the US.

Anonymous

"Her school was anything but disciplined."
I had a German foreign exchange student from Hamburg a couple of years ago, and the stories he told me were fascinating. German high schools are supposedly structured in three levels: the gifted, the average, and the dregs. The first two are reasonably well-behaved, but the latter is legendary for having undisciplined children. Think of an inner city school for that lower third - the exchange student's cousin attended one of those schools, and he used to witness attacks on teachers every week.

I love the Germans. Most Germans I've met were fantastic, and many are friends. One is an ex-girlfriend, and we had a fantastic time together^.
Yes, they are direct, which I love. Saves time. Very open to sex and physical pleasures in general, not repressed about any of it at all. True to their word, and if they need to change a plan, will let you know and definitely apologise.
Cool people, reasonable, fun and polite.
Köln is very laid-back, people are so friendly there. Düsseldorf I found nice too, less cool than Köln. Saarbrücken is boring, if you're looking for some criticism.
I would love to go back and the only thing stopping me from trying to go and live there is that I don't speak German very well. The Germans I've met who spoke French spoke very good French, puts you to shame.

French%20lesbian

R29 The kid is cute. However, I think I could have come up with some more interesting questions for him. Even he seemed a bit bored with the questions.
R38 What English subtitles? The video I saw was a German kid named Markus who was interviewed in English.

Apparently they're very fastidious about which floral dress they should wear on a given day and which casserole they are going to bake each night.

Personal observations from long experience:
1. There are only about 10 German faces. Everyone is a variation on them.
2. Germans are hardwired for fascism. And the most antifascist Germans are often the worst offenders. On the other hand they are the world's greatest romantics. Nazism was a rantic dream of "a better world " remember.
3. That they're comfortable with immigrants is a leftist delusion. As one German said to me of immigrants: "not a problem: a disease".
4. They really look best in uniforms.
5. Most look like lumpen people but the beauties can be utterly breathtaking: a true higher order of beauty. My platinum blond Rhinelander lover was like carved sunlight at 28. But then, darlings, after you've enjoyed the satin over steel body, the baby's arm cock, balls the size of a small melon, and gazed for hours into those endless blazing azure eyes in wonderment, you have to deal with his mind. His fucking steel built CH-ERRMUN mind.

Many German men sit down to pee.

There is a movie I would reccommend that tells you a lot about German temprament and culture, the German personality. It's called The White Ribbon. Chilling.

R122, are you sure it's not anti-German tripe? After all, it was made by an Austrian.

R 120
You sound like a self-absorbed idiot!

Anonymous

Agree with your R118. Those WERE stupid questions and boring.

An irrational name-calling bully on a German thread. Congrats on living up to the worst stereotype R124.

Please seek professional help, R120.

Is it true that many German parents believe beating their kids is an acceptable form of child-rearing?

R128, Clearly you are a troll. Germany was the birthplace of early childhood education and child development. Many of the liberal ideas regarding child rearing were developed in Germany. Certainly there are some families that believe in spanking, etc.; however, this is not the norm. However, German parents are not as permissive as American parents. The children do not rule the house.

Aside from that R124, R120 repeats the same damn post verbatim in every thread about Germany.

R129, I am not a troll. I could tell you a horrific tale of child abuse from an ex-German American friend. I'm sure it's not true of all families; he claimed it was the norm.

Over the Rhine in Cincinnati has the most beautiful collection of Italianate commercial buildings in the entire country and it has progressed a little.

There was a thread at one time about German toilets, IIRC. They're evidently made differently.
Given this is DL, I wasn't too surprised.

German toilets are gross. I freaked on my first trip to Germany because of them.

R131, please do not confuse German Americans with Germans. Many Germans immigrated to the USA because they did like being told what to do. There is a strong sense of community responsibility in Germany. As a rule, ones behavior is a reflection on the community as a whole. Consequently, the community will tell you what to do, and how to do it. German Americans often go to the opposite extreme with a "you can't tell me what to do" attitude. Unfortunately, it is most often the Sarah Palin everyone should stay out of our lives sense of "you can't tell me what to do" rather than the "you do your thing and I'll do mine" school.

Well, as far as child abuse in Germany, like the USA child abuse was acceptable for a long long time. Now it's unacceptable in Germany & the USA but Germany's child abuse did produce Hitler....so...

Scientology isn't banned in Germany, r63. If you don't believe me, google street view "Scientology Domstr. 9 Hamburg" -- and get ready for a surprise.
There are Scientology buildings in every major German city.
The 'church' is under surveillance, as they are considered a threat to the German constitution, but it isn't banned (yet).

knowledgeable

Oh, and r120 is the same fascist who pops up in EVERY thread about Germany here on DL, always telling us about his blonde arian ex-bf.
Like a true aspie, it needs to categorize and pigeonhole 'the Germans' by way of neat little bullet points -- just like the Nazis themselves de-humanized other people, putting them into this box and that category.
If anyoe exhibits fascist tendencies, it's you, r120.
And please stop masturbating to the idea of the 'perfect blonde über-mensch'.
Really, it's no wonder your German ex dumped you.

knowledgeable

Finally, whoever claimed Germans high schoolers learned 4-5 languages (mandatory) absolutely has non clue.
Only two foreign languages are mandatory in German high schools. It used to be English and French, nowadays it's English (mandatory in all cases) and another up to the choice of the SCHOOL (rarely the pupil) -- increasingly they teach Spanish as a second lg, instead of French.
Latin is often optional, sometimes mandatory (instead of French).
And Greek (read: Ancient Greek) is only taught at 'Humanistische Gymnasien', where it is usually optional, occasionally mandatory.
In any case, a German student will never be taught more than 3 foreign languages. Most learn exactly 2.
And German itself is NOT considered a language you would 'learn' in high school. What a bizarre thought! German pupils, being German, already know the language when they enter high school at age 10.
When they take 'German' in high school (again, mandatory) it means they read Goethe, Thomas Mann and Heinrich von Kleist, and discuss the age of enlightenment with their teachers.

knowledgeable

r141, Hitler was Austrian, not German.
Do keep up.

R144, is Turkish ever available in German schools? It would seem to be far more useful than Spanish.

[quote] And please stop masturbating to the idea of the 'perfect blonde uber-mensche'.
Sorry to disappoint you, r142-5: the 'perfect blond' (he will laugh at that when I tell him) didn't dump me. We shared mugs of German chocolate, and so much more, last week.
Mensche? You sound like one of those wound up & bitter NY jews who are always intellectually attacking others while trying to prove themselves. Must be fucking exhausting.

No more exhausting than what has happened to this thread!

[quote]Those who willingly travel to the third world seem like dolts to me
Africa, the Caribbean and South America for me, please. I'll take wildlife, beach culture, Tango & Samba over a rigid, regimented existence any day, thanks.

R147 sounds like quite the closet fascist himself.

Germany is awesome because it's one of the rare civilized places left in the world. Will it be the last holdout?

It won't last if they don't get rid of the right-wing Angela Merkel.

Angela Merkel is not "right wing."

Most Germans just seem, harsh, joyless and unlikeable. In fact, I don't think there's any such thing as a likeable German. Take the two popes Benedict and Francis. Both men have the same exact beliefs on almost every major issue, but you wouldn't know from how different the public is reacting to them.

R106
I am German (although living in the Bay Area atm), so I know it first hand. It is not the norm to learn 4 - 5 languages, nor is it customary to stay at school until 6:30pm.

[quote]Is it true that many German parents believe beating their kids is an acceptable form of child-rearing?
No.
Corporal punishment is prohibited in the home: [italic]“Children have the right to a non-violent upbringing. Corporal punishment, psychological injuries and other humiliating measures are prohibited.”[/italic]
Doesn't mean that every parent acts accordingly, of course, but beating up your children is most definitely not the norm.
Christ. This is a very interesting thread, to say the least. I wonder if my perception of Americans is equally skewed.

R156, I stand corrected on my views on child-rearing. Are there penalties for German parents who violate the norm and beat or emotionally abuse their kids? Where would the children then live?

You SEEM like an idiot, r154.

r157 obviously thinks 'The White Ribbon' depicts Germany today. It does not, sweety.
Where would abused children live? In the same institutions, the same foster families, as abused children in the US, or Finland, or Portugal, or Singapore.
Yes, there are penalties for German parents who violate the norm.
Stop projecting your fantasies of what Germany must be like, based on her history.
Germany had a 1968. It has arrived in the 21st century, a long time ago. It has the same liberal, crunchy, softy parents you'd find in Park Slope or Seattle or Laurel Canyon or anywhere in the civilized parts of the US.
The idea that parents would beat their child is revolting to mainstream Germans, just as it is to Americans.
You may carry on now.

In%20the%20know.

"in the know"/"knowledgeable" have you ever been to Germany or lived there? & where are you living now?

Poverty is not as widespread in Germany as in the US. I also think most European countries have a better handle at drug abuse than the US.
Sex education is better in Holland and Germany (don't know about other European countries) than the US - hence very few childhood pregnancies in comparison to the US. Overall education is better in Germany than US. Only privileged people have access to good education in the US.

Anonymous

US spends 7% of GDP on education v. 4% in Germany. Only 15% of Germans attend higher education v. 30% of Americans. Americans have lots more years of education than your typical German. You may be right that American education is of poor quality, but there is no question that Americans believe themselves to be educated.

I want to hear more about German schools.

'Americans have lots more years of education than your typical German'
Wrong.
Germans go to high school longer (typically leave at age 19), and they attend university longer (typically finish their studies mid to late 20s).

in%20the%20know.

"I'm going to tell you vhat's wrong vit America..."

Every%20German%20Tourist

Berliners, at least the younger ones, are way cool. They are friendly, interesting and a lot of times good-looking and stylish. I think it is a generational thing. Have you ever been to Germany, OP?

I had a German bf back in the day in NYC. Holgar was tall, built, handsome and hung. He would start in a restaurant and by the time we got to my apartment, we barely got in the front door and would have wild sex on my kitchen floor. oh, the memories of him telling me exactly what to do and how to do it......."There is no power struggle>I tell you what to do and you do it!"

r167, the US does the exact same thing with the rest of the world. For decades now.
Dumbass.

[quote]"There is no power struggle>I tell you what to do and you do it!"
The US does this too.

Americans get offended when they land in a foreign country and discover people don't speak English or there's no McDonalds.

"Aren't there a lot of Turks who simply refuse to assimilate?"
Turkey is part of Europe and Turks have a lot more in common culturally with Western Europeans than, say, Pakistanis or Moroccans. Assimilation isn't so much an issue as German skinheads making racist attacks on perfectly law-abiding German Turks.

You have to remember that what really horrified the world about the Holocaust wasn't that they all thought Germans were predisposed to genocide, but that in the mid-twentieth century they were supposed to be one of the most civilized, advanced societies on the planet. One of the reasons there were so many Jews living in Germany at that time was that Germany had for hundreds of years offered little islands of tolerance for Jews (first from local rulers who protected them, then after liberal anti-discrimination laws were passed in the 1800s) and was the best place for Jews to thrive in Europe. In fact Germanic Jews were so well assimilated in Germany and Austria that the old traditions of not intermarrying with Gentiles were fading and there might have been total assimilation within a generation or two if the antisemites hadn't taken control of the German government and mounted the Holocaust.

R174 you are just wrong...wrong.
Read Hitler's Willing Executioners for a history of the intolerance and hatred of a people.
There are "pockets" in every society that are more sophisticated and liberal...
To think that the majority of Germans were just doing what they were told in WW2 is ridiculous. It is a piece of propaganda...serious scholarship of the era disputes that self serving nonsense.
And...it still exists there today. "it" being, well you get it.
I will never set foot in that polluted society again. If you think 70 years or so changed a nationalist obsession you are just kidding yourself...

Bright%20Eyes

I'm tired to read about Germany and the past. Can't you just leave it for once? It's terrible what happened back then, we all know, but times have changed.

German%20here

Just leave it alone? Really? One of the most defining eras of modern man? Sure...it's over? Well yes that is history. The traits and underlying values still exist in your culture...R75

R75

Not every German was in favour of Hitler and if they were, they were very naive to his real motives. I used to talk to my mother a lot about what happened back then just to somehow understand how all this could have happened. She said there were a few Jewish people living in the small village and they were not hated by the Germans. Germans became suspicious when Nazis invaded towns and people disappeared. Some of the more educated Germans had radio and were able to get BBC radio. But the majority were simple people who did not have much of a clue, at least not in the beginning. My grandfather was friends with a Jewish woman and through her my family knew a bit more about Hitlers true intentions. My grandfather offered her to stay in his house for months. She was hiding in one of the rooms while SS was stationed in the little village and so she was able to escape deportation. I never got to know the Jewish woman nor my grandfather because they died before I was born, but after the war my family was friends with a Jewish family. This Family went through an ordeal after being able to survive concentration camp. If I remember correctly the wife and the husband were deported to different camps and by miracle both got out because the Americans saved the remaining living Jewish people in those camps in the last days of the war. Because all of their possessions were confiscated by the Nazis they did not return to Germany (and they did not have much interest in returning either) After a while the German government gave the possessions back to the rightful owners and some Jewish people returned to Germany. My father rented a piece of land from this Jewish family and when they found out what my grandfather had done they OK-ed to do business with a German again. Out of a business deal a friendship started.
This of course is just one story and many, many, many others went in a very different direction. I still remember this family although the husband died when I was still in my early teens. His wife was a very vibrant, vivacious and proud woman who had not lost her sense of humour despite of the ordeal she went through. She was very active in the community where they lived and was actively involved to save the remaining graves of Jewish people in the graveyard of their town.

anonymous

r175 is projecting, and doesn't know what he's talking about.
There's far more anti-semitism in the US than there ever could be in Germany, these days.
Case in point: the big song and dance about his religion when Joe Lieberman became Al Gore's running mate. Was the country ready for a Jew? Would Judaism impede his work, should he have to replace Gore? How 'Jewish' were he and his wife really?
GROSS!
These questions would NEVER be asked in Germany today, in public, OR in private, ever. Even thinking a Jew was 'different' from a gentile is considered gross and insensitive, and deviant.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Jews are treated as a different species in the US, from country clubs to high schools to the work place. But not in Germany!
As usual, dumb Americans such as r175 have no clue what they're talking about, and happily cast stones inside their shabby little glasshouse.

in%20the%20know.

'Turkey is part of Europe'
No, it's not.
Only 5 % of her landmass lie in Europe. The rest is in Asia.
Culturally, it is most assuredly NOT European. Clearly you've never been to Anatolia, away from the touristy beach resorts.
If Turkey were indeed 'European', Europe would have no problem making her a member of the EU.
But they do have a problem with it!
For a reason.
Turkey, like the rest of the Islamic world, by-passed the age of enlightenment.
One little example to illustrate how un-European they are:
when a Danish paper published cartoons of the propher Mohammed, Turkey - in all seriousness - suggested closing down the paper! They were incredulous it hadn't happened already.
To which the EU said: this isn't how things are done in a democracy.
European papers publish countless caricatures of the POPE. Withouth consequences! THAT is democracy.
Turkey isn't fit to join the EU. We don't need a bully stuck in the Middle Ages. Do they accept gay people? NO. Do women count much in their society? NO. Is it an open and fair democracy? NO. Does the country even lie in Europe? NO !
End of story.

In%20the%20know.

But the Turkish do accept sex between men, it is understood before marriage and at most Hamams. You can fuck and suck, you just can't be 'gay'.

Uh, and how is that remotely European, r181?
In the EU you can be gay in any way you choose, at any point in your life, everywhere, even in Italy, the only EU member without civil unions.
What if I want to have sex outside a Hamam, in the privacy of my home, with my MALE partner?
Turkey is NOT accepting of people who identify as GAY.
Therefore, they need to stay where they are: outside.

in%20the%20know.

R180
While there is some truth in your post most of it is hyperbole and sounds incredibly bias and also like you forgot to take your medication today.

Anonymous

r9, yes, yes, yes.
While I was there, a native New Yorker who crosses when no cars are around regardless of the crosswalk, just took off one day on a really slow street and watched everyone standing on the corner watching in horror as I crossed.
I really tried not to jaywalk ever again and would stand on the corner for about a minute and no cars would ever pass but if you even began with one step off the curb they would shoot you evil looks.

'sounds incredibly bias'
And you sound like you can't speak English.

r180, it's not the end of story. Turkey is part of Europe, although only a small part of the land mass, a huge part of the population as Istanbul is in both Europe and Asia.

R184
The reason for people not crossing when lights are red is because it gives a bad example to children who might watch and who might imitate and then being run over.

Anonymous

r186, that still doesn't make them European - culturally.
You have to fullfill certain criteria to become a member, and Turkey doesn't meet all of them. Belarus doesn't meet them either, and their landmass is 100 % inside Europe.
Really, their reaction to the Danish cartoon thing totally showed them up.
They have a different understanding of democracy than us, and therefore they must remain a non-member. Which, not surprisingly, is what they are.
France and Germany will never let them in. More power to them!

in%20the%20know.

r187, that is only partly true.
They also have a problem with it when NO children are around. It is deeply ingrained as an "asozial" thing to do.
No all Germans are like this, though. Increasingly, jaywalking is accepted and done, especially in larger cities.

in%20the%20know.

R189
Children could always be watching. Why is it such a big deal to you. Green lights are also for your own safety. You sound obsessed.

Anonymous

Since R159 mentioned German's entering into the 21st century, can someone explain why Germans were (and sometimes are) so resistant to e-mail? I worked for a German company in the 1990s. I would send them an e-mail and they would reply by FAX. A Fax using the smallest possible fonts to reduce pages. Mind you this was a company with a website in both Germany and the USA and designated e-mail addresses for the employees. More than once I booked a hotel room and had the hotel reply with a photo of the FAX they would have sent. The last time this happened was as recent as five years ago.
German businesses seem to be the same as everyone else now, but I still have problems with individuals replying by e-mail.

So do you, with your need to counter healthy laissez-faire.
I expressly said: people are like this even when NO children are around. At a cross-lights where only adults are waiting for green light.
Which presents a different case, does it not.

in%20the%20know.

r191: it's not the 1990s anymore.
Everyone uses e-mail these days, in Germany.
Any other lame questions for us?

in%20the%20know%2C%20and%20incredulous%20too.

R193, no, everyone doesn't use e-mail nowadays. This is true of Germany, the USA and probably the rest of the world.
Second, yes, I was talking about the 1990s and the 2000s. This may be before your were born, but it doesn't mean that what was going on then is not of interest to others, if not of interest to you. It seems odd that Germany, which tends to embrace technology, was so far behind the USA as far the internet goes. (And for the record, I don't consider credit cards to be technology. I certainly understand their resistance to those.)
Just to give a bit more information, many of my current clients are in the former East Germany, which may color their resistance to communicating by email.

R192
Well maybe you are one of the few people on this earth who are blessed with eyes in the back on the sides and on top of your head. Ever heard about cameras and television, btw.
Good advise for you: save energy for something more important than your childish need of crossing the street when the lights are red.

Anonymous

Let's post pix of hot, hung German men.

'Good advise for you: save energy for something more important than your childish need of crossing the street when the lights are red'
You sound hilarious, grandma.
Also, in English we say "advice" when we mean the noun, not "advise".
You're welcome, Fanny.

in%20the%20know.

R175 here again...firstly I am Jewish.
Secondly just because there is anti-semitism in the US has nothing to do with Germany. You are naive to think it is thought to be deviant there to be anti-Semitic ....I just can't even begin to address your total ignorance...
There were MANY small villages in Germany that for ages had signs outside them forbidding Jews to enter...to think the the simple country folk were accepting and loving is ridiculous.

R175

It's a shame that R175/R198 is so emotionally fucked-up that he can't get past wrongs done against his people 80 years ago.
I mean, it must be emotionally exhausting being permanently stuck in 1945.

R198
When was the last time that you were in Germany?
1946?
And will you ever find your peace with the past?

R176

Mrs. Patrick Campbell and Pollyanna Prisspot have gotten into a direct pushing match about Cologne over on Zetaboards.

Turkey is too European. Anatolia is less different from Greece culturally than Greece is from Britain.
The Ottomans who conquered Constantinople and changed its name to Istanbul came from the west, from Edirne, not from the east. They depended on Balkan troops to hold their empire together.
Anatolia didn't become a Turkish heartland until Ataturk decreed it. Historically Turks had been on the Black Sea coast but the rest of the peninsula was filled with Greeks, Circassians, Kurds, Armenians, Alevis, etc. etc.

[quote]And German itself is NOT considered a language you would 'learn' in high school. What a bizarre thought! German pupils, being German, already know the language when they enter high school at age 10.
[quote]When they take 'German' in high school (again, mandatory) it means they read Goethe, Thomas Mann and Heinrich von Kleist, and discuss the age of enlightenment with their teachers.
I'm sure you didn't mean to insult whoever you're addressing, R144, but in the U.S. when we refer to taking "English" in high school we do not mean learning the language we've been speaking since birth as you seem to imply.
When I was in high school our "English" courses consisted of English Literature, American Literature, World Literature and Composition. They were all classes designed to further expose students to the language in its many forms. Would you believe that all American universities have "English" departments? By your logic you must think that they're remedial institutions.
You didn't mention whether high school students in Germany are expected to learn any expository writing skills. Are those present at the age of 10 in German students? Or am I to assume that Germans leave high school unable to present ideas clearly and critically in writing?

Evidently Germans aren't as uptight and anally retentive as some of the people posting on this thread.

No, r203, as a matter of fact taking "German" in high school is NOT about learning any 'expository writing skills'. In fact, it is not about writing at all.
German pupils really only read the German classics, and discuss them with their teachers. Twice per semester, they write what is called a 'Klassenarbeit': they get a set of questions, and they write an essay (in class), addressing those questions. They have 45 minutes to do it.
Just HOW they write that essay is up to them, and 'writing skills' are not taught AT ALL. It's all learning by doing.
How do I know all this?
Ich selber war auf einem deutschen Gymnasium!

in%20the%20know%2C%20who%20really%20is%3A%20in%20the%20know.

So we know Germany is full of shitty writers...

I think Germans are very similar to Americans, but kinkier and smarter. And more competent. And less hypocritical. But still rather similar.

Hardly, r207.
The written essays are corrected very thoroughly, a lot of attention is paid to grammar, spelling and punctuation.
Keep in mind that Germans attend university longer than American students (btw Germans would NEVER call uni 'school', as Americans do) --
German universities cannot even be compared to American colleges; they are much more demanding. A US 'college' basically equals the last two years of a German high school.
Writing skills are perfected during those years at uni.
High school is all about broadening the mind, encouraging critical thinking, NOT teaching specific skills. Those are taught at uni.

in%20the%20know.

^^ To clarify: other than grammar/spelling, the main interest of those essays ('Klassenarbeit') is to get the student to discuss an idea from different angles. And to teach a sense of LOGIC. They are designed to show the student where and how he is being illogical, and how to become a better thinker.
Content trumps style.
Perhaps if you did the same in the US, your populace wouldn't be as sheepish and uncritical as they sadly are.

in%20the%20know.

One correction, In The Know, The German university system war revamped recently (this year?) so that it is now parallel to the US system. The days of long University studies are dying, if not over.

r204's video proves that at least one of them isn't. Plus he can really fill a Speedo.

[quote]German universities cannot even be compared to American colleges; they are much more demanding. A US 'college' basically equals the last two years of a German high school.
To be fair, only the smartest German kids go to college, or even attend an academically focused high school. In that respect it's not all that much different than the best US high schools where the top 10 or 15% load up in enough advanced placement courses to get a year or more worth of college credit.
I think the top 10% in Germany and the US are just about equal, but Germany deserves tremendous credit for what it does with the kids who don't want to (or can't) go to college.
Their training programs are the finest in the world. They produce everything from butchers to machinists in those schools, and they students graduate knowing a trade.
I'll put a high school age German who has been trained as an auto mechanic up against a graduate of a US community college where they earned their US certifications any day of the week.

r213, you are correct about the good training opportunities for those who won't attend uni. But you're wrong about the percentage of Germans attending a 'Gymnasium'. It's much higher than 10-15 %.
And r211: you are right, the length of university time has been adjusted to the US system (with exceptions), but not the *quality* of education. German universities are much more demanding than US colleges, precisely because German high schools have covered in their last two years everything US students learn in college in their respective first two years.
They can't be compared at all.
Finally, even though German universities now offer programs that will get you a degree rather quickly, the German academic *ideal* remains the same: studying broadly (many subjects, not just one) and spending a long time on it is considered worthwhile (culturally). It is deeply ingrained in the German intellectual cosmos, and those who do want to study for a long time are happy to do so.
You've got an amalgam of 'we need to be fit for the 21st century' and 'this is what made us a nation of thinkers, why change it'. It's not a clash, just two co-existing schools of thought.

in%20the%20know.

God it's ironically amusing: r214, and in all his other posts, by exhibiting all the leaden humourless didacticism, assumed superiority, and rigid demands that can characterise the most depressing type of German, has unwittingly answered the OP's question. I wonder if any of his friends have blown their brains out so they didn't have to listen to any more of the finger-jabbing lectures.

R214, Thank you for letting me know that the quality of the German University experience has not changed. I was not happy to hear that this had happened. It seemed like yet another example of the Americanization of Germany. To be honest, I don't really understand the reason for the change. I know it is to get young people into the workforce more quickly, but I don't see why that is important.
And I, for one, enjoy your posts.

R94, are you from friggin' Pittsburgh bcos dear God, I think we are cousins.

R214
Don't be surprised if the people of the 21st century find you extremely annoying.

anonymous

No one answered my question: Are straight German men into anal?

[quote][R213], you are correct about the good training opportunities for those who won't attend uni. But you're wrong about the percentage of Germans attending a 'Gymnasium'. It's much higher than 10-15 %.
I didn't say that. I said that the top 10-15% of American high school students are very comparable to their German counterparts.
A top US high student will spend their last 2 years taking AP courses for college credit, and they'll arrive at college basically the same two years of advance study you claim German students receive.

I ate a Chinese-German restaurant, it was good, except an hour later you're hungry, for power.