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Personal preference I suppose. Gundam Unicorn is one of the worst anime titles I've heard. Try discussing it with one of your friends. Did you watch the new gundam? Which one? You know Gundam....unicorn

Its supposed to be a metaphor you unimaginative lout! Fans these days have no appreciation for literary creativity

On to bigger things and spoiler requests

Spoiler for About the ending:

So, what ultimately happens with the Laplace box and the constitution, are reforms eventually made to the Earth's Sphere or does the truth about its contents get buried? On a side note, any elaboration on Full Frontal and Neo-Zeon's fate by the end, do they die or end up disarming/surrendering?

__________________

"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia

So, what ultimately happens with the Laplace box and the constitution, are reforms eventually made to the Earth's Sphere or does the truth about its contents get buried? On a side note, any elaboration on Full Frontal and Neo-Zeon's fate by the end, do they die or end up disarming/surrendering?

If I recall the premise for F91 then yes, as the oldmobile army was almost entirely isolated from the events that transpired beforehand. At the very least, Unicorn does seem to bring a close to the Zeon spacenoid/colonist movement, what I'm asking is how exactly it goes about it, and whether the reform so desperately sought was able to finally occur and give us a brief respite (to which, if it should be in the affirmative I will gladly ignore all future Gundam timelines after the Republic of Zeon reunites with the Earth sphere henceforth as bad, bad dreams)

__________________

"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia

If I recall the premise for F91 then yes, as the oldmobile army was almost entirely isolated from the events that transpired beforehand. At the very least, Unicorn does seem to bring a close to the Zeon spacenoid/colonist movement, what I'm asking is how exactly it goes about it, and whether the reform so desperately sought was able to finally occur and give us a brief respite (to which, if it should be in the affirmative I will gladly ignore all future Gundam timelines after the Republic of Zeon reunites with the Earth sphere henceforth as bad, bad dreams)

Spoiler:

In Unicorn, it was said that the Republic of Zeon had already agreed to give up their independence and disarm their military by UC0100 after the events of CCA. The Sleeves are really just a splinter group of Zeon fanatics that refuses to acknowledge the merge, let go of the grunge they have towards the Feds and see the Laplace Box as their final shot at independence, even though they knew nothing about the contents, whereas Full Frontal is just a psychotic Enhanced Human that wanted more war because he pretty much thinks that without the struggle humankind would stagnate and saw the Box as the key to prolong the war to bring out stronger and more interesting people and manipulated the fanatics to follow him. In the end, the "secret" of the box is let out and it was supposed to be left to the people to decide, and the majority of the people decided that they really didn't care, as would be confirmed by Hathway's Flash and F91, unless they are those that still hold on to the monarchy ways of Zeon such as the Ronah family (which is only started by the Zabi family I must remind you, not the original democratic ways of Zeon Daikun) and/or just mentally screwed up (eg Hathway who still blames the death of Quess on the Feds). It pretty much argued that the Principality of Zeon did things wrong (as it should be, finally a non-Tomino Gundam that doesn't white-wash Zeon history) and that the real Zeon Daikun's dream was ruined in the process and the Zabi Zeon and their numerous splinter groups made things worse.

In Unicorn, it was said that the Republic of Zeon had already agreed to give up their independence and disarm their military by UC0100 after the events of CCA. The Sleeves are really just a splinter group of Zeon fanatics that refuses to acknowledge the merge, let go of the grunge they have towards the Feds and see the Laplace Box as their final shot at independence, even though they knew nothing about the contents, whereas Full Frontal is just a psychotic Enhanced Human that wanted more war because he pretty much thinks that without the struggle humankind would stagnate and saw the Box as the key to prolong the war to bring out stronger and more interesting people and manipulated the fanatics to follow him. In the end, the "secret" of the box is let out and it was supposed to be left to the people to decide, and the majority of the people decided that they really didn't care, as would be confirmed by Hathway's Flash and F91, unless they are those that still hold on to the monarchy ways of Zeon such as the Ronah family (which is only started by the Zabi family I must remind you, not the original democratic ways of Zeon Daikun) and/or just mentally screwed up (eg Hathway who still blames the death of Quess on the Feds). It pretty much argued that the Principality of Zeon did things wrong (as it should be, finally a non-Tomino Gundam that doesn't white-wash Zeon history) and that the real Zeon Daikun's dream was ruined in the process and the Zabi Zeon and their numerous splinter groups made things worse.

Spoiler for Reply:

Very anti-Zeon huh? While their actions might have been wrong, they were very much forced by the Federation, where the aristocrats refused to grant independence to Zeon and even explicitly discriminated against the NewTypes. Though I have no intentions of defending Zeon, the events leading up to Unicorn and the events in its aftermath (if there is no retcon) were more likely the consequences of both Zeon and Federation indifference.

Very anti-Zeon huh? While their actions might have been wrong, they were very much forced by the Federation, where the aristocrats refused to grant independence to Zeon and even explicitly discriminated against the NewTypes. Though I have no intentions of defending Zeon, the events leading up to Unicorn and the events in its aftermath (if there is no retcon) were more likely the consequences of both Zeon and Federation indifference.

Spoiler:

Tsk, another one misled by the white-washing of Zeon history by non-Tomino Gundam.
Firstly, you cannot brand everything under the same "Zeon" banner. Unicorn (the novel anyway, the anime cut out Beagher's full confrontation with the Sleeves civilians in regards to Principality of Zeon history) reminded the viewers pretty well here - the original Republic of Zeon led by Zeon Daikun (Char's father) wanted a peaceful independence movement, but the Zabi family didn't want that and assassinated him and took over, change the country name to the the Principality of Zeon and declared war on the Feds by dropping colonies which led to the One Week War, wiped out half the human population on Earth and in non-Zeon colonies, all killed by the Zeons. The Feds didn't force anything besides the usual economic sanctions, the Feds also didn't declare war, it was all started by the Principality of Zeon led by the Zabi family. Even Minvera in Unicorn acknowledge that and the reason she was so against the Sleeves going for the Laplace Box is because she understood that the followers of the Sleeves led by Full Frontal were taking the wrong path which would not lead to a peaceful resolution. While Minvera is a Zabi her views were definitely more aligned to the original Zeon Daikun view.

I'm not anti-Republic of Zeon led by Zeon Daikun, but I am anti-Principality of Zeon started by the Zabi family and how most of the non-Tomino UC shows tries to white-wash their history, usually by glossing over the fact that Zeon freaking started the war, not only killing billions on Earth, but other Spacenoids that weren't "with" them (that's where they got the colonies to drop). Principality of Zeon were way more corrupted and evil than the Feds, they also weren't really standing for spacenoids, just themselves.

Even though there aren't any official constitutional reforms that result from the Laplace's Box revelation, the end result is still the same. By F91 and especially Victory, the colonies have effectively become their own sovereign bodies independent from the Federation, who have little--if any--control left in space.

Zeon officially dissolves but spacenoids in general become very much separated from the Federation.

Even though there aren't any official constitutional reforms that result from the Laplace's Box revelation, the end result is still the same. By F91 and especially Victory, the colonies have effectively become their own sovereign bodies independent from the Federation, who have little--if any--control left in space.

Zeon officially dissolves but spacenoids in general become very much separated from the Federation.

The funny thing is,

Spoiler:

by Victory the Federation doesn't have any real control over Earth either.

Tsk, another one misled by the white-washing of Zeon history by non-Tomino Gundam.
Firstly, you cannot brand everything under the same "Zeon" banner. Unicorn (the novel anyway, the anime cut out Beagher's full confrontation with the Sleeves civilians in regards to Principality of Zeon history) reminded the viewers pretty well here - the original Republic of Zeon led by Zeon Daikun (Char's father) wanted a peaceful independence movement, but the Zabi family didn't want that and assassinated him and took over, change the country name to the the Principality of Zeon and declared war on the Feds by dropping colonies which led to the One Week War, wiped out half the human population on Earth and in non-Zeon colonies, all killed by the Zeons. The Feds didn't force anything besides the usual economic sanctions, the Feds also didn't declare war, it was all started by the Principality of Zeon led by the Zabi family. Even Minvera in Unicorn acknowledge that and the reason she was so against the Sleeves going for the Laplace Box is because she understood that the followers of the Sleeves led by Full Frontal were taking the wrong path which would not lead to a peaceful resolution. While Minvera is a Zabi her views were definitely more aligned to the original Zeon Daikun view.

I'm not anti-Republic of Zeon led by Zeon Daikun, but I am anti-Principality of Zeon started by the Zabi family and how most of the non-Tomino UC shows tries to white-wash their history, usually by glossing over the fact that Zeon freaking started the war, not only killing billions on Earth, but other Spacenoids that weren't "with" them (that's where they got the colonies to drop). Principality of Zeon were way more corrupted and evil than the Feds, they also weren't really standing for spacenoids, just themselves.

Spoiler for Reply:

You obviously have been discounting the actions of the Federation all this while.

The Federation did exactly what the Zabi family did. Mass murders and more massarces, poison gases and sorts. If you mean the Federation didn't declare war, I dare say that the Federation already knew that Zeon would declare war. As soon as they got the intelligence, the Federation most probably chose not to declare war because doing so will most likely enthuse the other colonies to side with Zeon, because something along the lines of Federation-initiated war will almost be interpreted as anti-Spacenoid.

Granted, Zeon did not stand for the spacenoids, but neither did the Federation did for the earthnoids and the Oldtypes. (Because my knowledge of UC is extremely poor) How can you not refer to the Gryps conflict at all?

I also do not stand by the Zabis, for their lack of common sense, the Deikuns, for their narrow-minded idealism, and the Federation, for their indifference and inability to change.

In Unicorn, it was said that the Republic of Zeon had already agreed to give up their independence and disarm their military by UC0100 after the events of CCA. The Sleeves are really just a splinter group of Zeon fanatics that refuses to acknowledge the merge, let go of the grunge they have towards the Feds and see the Laplace Box as their final shot at independence, even though they knew nothing about the contents, whereas Full Frontal is just a psychotic Enhanced Human that wanted more war because he pretty much thinks that without the struggle humankind would stagnate and saw the Box as the key to prolong the war to bring out stronger and more interesting people and manipulated the fanatics to follow him. In the end, the "secret" of the box is let out and it was supposed to be left to the people to decide, and the majority of the people decided that they really didn't care, as would be confirmed by Hathway's Flash and F91, unless they are those that still hold on to the monarchy ways of Zeon such as the Ronah family (which is only started by the Zabi family I must remind you, not the original democratic ways of Zeon Daikun) and/or just mentally screwed up (eg Hathway who still blames the death of Quess on the Feds). It pretty much argued that the Principality of Zeon did things wrong (as it should be, finally a non-Tomino Gundam that doesn't white-wash Zeon history) and that the real Zeon Daikun's dream was ruined in the process and the Zabi Zeon and their numerous splinter groups made things worse.

Spoiler for Uhmm:

Aren't you basically contradicting yourself here in most instances, given your arguments on Hathaway's mental stability and the generally separate motivations of the terrorist group he was part of? Or that F91 dealt with a much older and isolated former faction of Zeon instead of one involved in the current political events in the Earth Sphere that transpired like those of the Neo-Zeon movements? So by and large from what I can gather you're saying the ending of Unicorn was left obscure as to what exactly happened to the political landscape in the Universal Century and whether or not the Sides managed to achieve the political reform and independence that was originally supposed to be granted to them, is that correct?

__________________

"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia

You obviously have been discounting the actions of the Federation all this while.

The Federation did exactly what the Zabi family did. Mass murders and more massarces, poison gases and sorts. If you mean the Federation didn't declare war, I dare say that the Federation already knew that Zeon would declare war. As soon as they got the intelligence, the Federation most probably chose not to declare war because doing so will most likely enthuse the other colonies to side with Zeon, because something along the lines of Federation-initiated war will almost be interpreted as anti-Spacenoid.

Granted, Zeon did not stand for the spacenoids, but neither did the Federation did for the earthnoids and the Oldtypes. (Because my knowledge of UC is extremely poor) How can you not refer to the Gryps conflict at all?

Spoiler:

Hehe, I can see you really need to brush up on your UC history.

The Feds only committed murder AFTER the Zeon started the OYW - except this was only recently reconned in Unicorn, it wasn't in the official Tomino OYW time line, and even then, you can't hardly blame the Fed soldiers when the Zeon's just dropped a couple of colonies on Earth and wiped out half the human civilian population which made everyone looked at Zeon as cold-blooded monsters that aren't worthy of being human beings. If you mean the Titans who did the gasing, again the Titans by that time in Zeta were a splinter group of elite Feds soldiers consisting of fanatics whom had absolute self-regulating power without the need to consult the Fed, basically they didn't take orders from the Feds thus they were not representative of the Feds, unlike the top Zeon powers whom are nearly always psychos out to, well, commit genocide on Earth.

Also the Feds weren't ready for the war, they weren't expecting it, the reason the Zabi Zeon got a jump on them was preciously because they weren't expecting the war, the Feds were so confident on their troop powers they didn't think the Zeon's would be stupid enough to declare war!

As for the Gryps Conflict, again that was the Titans' doing when it went rouge, which by the end the Feds condemned them and supported the AEUG's handling of it. True the Feds were slow in handling the rouge Titans and did a really poor job of it, but in the end they did do the right thing. Your Zeta background looks pretty rusty here, you have to remember the Titan's were given self-regulating power that doesn't take orders from the top of the Fed as well as a higher chain of command over normal Federation military. It's easy to forget that if you go just with shows like 0083 which could easily make you think that the Fed's itself *became* the Titans when they show all the people involved in that conflict wearing the Titans uniform at the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Spoiler for Uhmm:

Aren't you basically contradicting yourself here in most instances, given your arguments on Hathaway's mental stability and the generally separate motivations of the terrorist group he was part of? Or that F91 dealt with a much older and isolated former faction of Zeon instead of one involved in the current political events in the Earth Sphere that transpired like those of the Neo-Zeon movements? So by and large from what I can gather you're saying the ending of Unicorn was left obscure as to what exactly happened to the political landscape in the Universal Century and whether or not the Sides managed to achieve the political reform and independence that was originally supposed to be granted to them, is that correct?

Spoiler:

The original constitution held in Laplace's Box was a clause that gives Spacenoids a right to vote in representatives to participate in the Federation's political system and represent themselves, not give them the right to independence and exists as separate entities from the Federation, so in essences given the original constitution they could operate more as states. The ending of Unicorn was left obscure as to what exactly happened after disclose of the content of the box, but it's safe to say that instead of a massive radical independence movement as wanted by the Neo-Zeon's/Sleeves, things certainly didn't went that far/revolutionary/bloody, or things could even remained more or less the same. The thing is no matter how good of a governing system you put in, there would always be someone who aren't going to be happy. You can't look at a couple of fringe cases like Hathaway and the Ronah family (FWIW the scale of the conflict in F91 was tiny) and say that they represent the masses of the Spacenoids. For all that Unicorn/Hathway's Flash/F91 told us is that what happened in Unicorn didn't lead to a massive, abrupt independence movement on the part of the colonies even given the truth was revealed. And like someone point out above, it wasn't until Victory that the landscape seems to have changed drastically and that is a good half a century/60 years after Unicorn. So there is no contradiction, the majority of the people really didn't seem to care after what happened in Unicorn, or rather the majority wanted peaceful resolution rather than conflict and/or true independence.

The original constitution held in Laplace's Box was a clause that gives Spacenoids a right to vote in representatives to participate in the Federation's political system and represent themselves, not give them the right to independence and exists as separate entities from the Federation, so in essences given the original constitution they could operate more as states. The ending of Unicorn was left obscure as to what exactly happened after disclose of the content of the box, but it's safe to say that instead of a massive radical independence movement as wanted by the Neo-Zeon's/Sleeves, things certainly didn't went that far/revolutionary/bloody, or things could even remained more or less the same. The thing is no matter how good of a governing system you put in, there would always be someone who aren't going to be happy. You can't look at a couple of fringe cases like Hathaway and the Ronah family (FWIW the scale of the conflict in F91 was tiny) and say that they represent the masses of the Spacenoids. For all that Unicorn/Hathway's Flash/F91 told us is that what happened in Unicorn didn't lead to a massive, abrupt independence movement on the part of the colonies even given the truth was revealed. And like someone point out above, it wasn't until Victory that the landscape seems to have changed drastically and that is a good half a century/60 years after Unicorn. So there is no contradiction, the majority of the people really didn't seem to care after what happened in Unicorn, or rather the majority wanted peaceful resolution rather than conflict and/or true independence.

Spoiler for Response:

I'm not disagreeing with you on that score, in fact I rather hope for the best and that a peaceful resolution was indeed found to right what was and has been a legitimate grievance that fueled the confrontations to come in the One Year War and beyond. And I'm not saying Independence was necessarily the best solution either, but a degree of representation and autonomy seems like a fair enough concession to make in order to alleviate some of the motivations on the Zeon/spacenoid side. Even if we aren't able to put a stop to all bloodshed at the very least we can close the book on this tragic chapter in history, going as far back in its roots as the beginnings of the Universal Century and its original promise. Even if some like Syam Vist initially believed correctly that it was a lie, human perseverance could and would turn it into truth in the end.

__________________

"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia

So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And itís also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.