Comments on: The Toronto Rockets Debut (Updated)http://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/
Transit & PoliticsTue, 03 Mar 2015 21:57:43 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.com/By: Brandonhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25249
Sun, 12 Feb 2012 18:26:08 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25249I also forgot to mention this; just a few comments about some TR design features I noticed when I went on it for the first time.

Firstly, I think that the overhead LED announcement displays extend too far (over halfway) to the middle of the car from each end and alter shape of the interior. The geometry of subway cars is generally supposed to be straight and parallel (rectangular) when viewed from the side/top/bottom. Although the TR cars adhere to this geometry on the outside, I’d rather that the interior geometry also match. Why can’t the displays extend only as far as they do on the H5/6/T1 cars (ie until the side doors closest to the car ends)? Yes, the H5/6/T1 cars don’t have visual announcements, but they still have a “step” in the ceiling at the car ends.

Secondly, I noticed that the exterior guard lights and interior security cameras are placed right in the middle of the car, of all places. I think that this should also be changed, the guard lights can be put closer to the car ends like on the H/T1 cars. As for the cameras, I would put one at each end of the car.

Finally, I noticed that the non-cab cars are slightly asymmetrical in terms of length – there are 4 side facing seats at one end of each car, and only 3 at the other. And on the blueprint the lack of symmetry can be seen because each car has one truck directly below the side door, and the other shifted slightly closer to the middle. But this is not necessarily a bad thing, it is a new design feature which actually makes the second point not quite true – the cameras and guard lights are not exactly in the middle due to the extra side-facing seat at one end.

However, I was very excited about the new trains and I don’t want to be disappointed in them, especially since we’re going to have 70, so I suppose that these little details can be ignored.

]]>By: L. Wallhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25248
Wed, 08 Feb 2012 05:08:25 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25248From what I remember of the fleet projections that have been posted here, there certainly won’t be any extra T1’s if the intent is to retire all of the H6’s early and ramp up service on the BD line to 50 train sets.

Steve: Also discussed here is the question of whether it is physically possible to operate the headway a 50-train service would trigger.

]]>By: Brandonhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25247
Wed, 08 Feb 2012 02:55:23 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25247Like you said to Miroslav Glavic, the T1’s cannot all fit on BD and some were supposed to stay on YUS? But since they’re not getting ATO, the TTC ordered more TR’s for YUS so does that mean that the “extra” T1’s that were supposed to stay on YUS can be withdrawn?

Also, just to clarify, ATO means that trains will operate on their own without a driver correct? Sounds a bit strange, not what I’m used to at least, although they do have ATO elsewhere. So are trains going to be controlled from the transit control center? Sounds like a difficult task, considering they’d have about 50 trains to control at the same time.

Steve: They will be controlled by computer, the same way the SRT is driven. The operator tells the car to leave the station, except when the line is in some version of manual operation thanks to one of the frequent failures of the signal system. Computers can drive all of the trains at once quite easily.

Yes, the TTC will have a surfeit of T1’s and I’m sure this will be counted as a bonus toward the construction cost of a new subway line.

]]>By: Stephenhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25246
Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:48:57 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25246Can you provide details with respect to the timetable for rolling out the new Rocket on the YUS line? Will proposed cutbacks roll back delivery of the new trains?

thanks!

Steve: I don’t have a timetable for the new train rollouts. This depends on deliveries from Bombardier and acceptance testing by the TTC. Also, there are no changes in subway service levels, and so there is no effect on fleet allocations or utilization for rapid transit services.

]]>By: nfitzhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25244
Mon, 13 Jun 2011 14:11:00 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25244As far as I understand it, a major controlling factor on the capacity of the Yonge line is the dwell time in Bloor station.

As the new trains have the same number of doors and same door-size as the T1s, yet are supposed to carry 10% more passengers, won’t this increase the dwell time?

How much does TTC think they’ll have to extend the dwell times with the new TR trains?

I’m not understanding how the new trains will increase capacity on this critical segment of the line.

Steve: The dwell time is a function of the number of people trying to get on and off, and the ease with which they can do so. Your argument may be valid, but only to the extent that it is not offset by the through passengers’ ability to move further away from the doors into space now occupied by caps and the inter-car gap. There is also the question of the station’s ability to absorb greater passenger flow, and that gets us to both the capacity and the frequency of the trains.

Acceleration is given as 2.0 mphps (standard). I wonder if there’s a high rate that isn’t shown. 2.0 mphps isn’t exactly neck-snapping.

Steve: The question of high rate is one of top speed, and this is spec’s as 55mph, or 88km/h, faster than typical operation on the subway today. Holding the acceleration rate to 2.0 saves on various parts of the electrical system, some weight, and peak power consumption.

]]>By: Ross Wrighthttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25242
Thu, 09 Jun 2011 22:36:40 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25242How much more testing needs to be done before the train is put into service?
Or are there still small issues with compatibility on the YUS lines?

Steve: The TTC claims that two to four trains will be in service “in a few weeks”. They have been seen in test/training runs mixed in with regular service. If there were problems with these trains, they wouldn’t be allowed on the line during normal service hours.

Joey Connick said: Doesn’t the great hope of reducing headways hinge on automated train control, in which case the train operators being able to quickly move from one side of the train to other becomes totally irrelevant because there won’t be any operators on the trains?

ATU113 prevents trains being operated without at least one staff on board.

Steve: Before we get that far down the road, we have to find the money to complete the ATO system on the entire line, and we have to have a big enough fleet to operate the whole line with TR trains. Nobody has explained, by the way, who is going to deal with all those emergencies we have both with onboard equipment, passengers or “smoke at track level” in an automated environment. Unless the TTC can show us trains operating reliably without constant interruptions, automated operation will be a farce.

]]>By: TTC Passengerhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25240
Sat, 04 Jun 2011 23:27:50 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25240Thanks for the scanned Bombardier handout. The copy they gave you at the media presentation’s got far more useful information than Bombardier’s website has right now and it’s vastly better than the puff piece the TTC handed out last weekend that was clearly written for a Karen Stintz-ian level audience.

If the TTC is going to have a prayer of getting headways down to even close of what their ambitions are, this design helps a little (but they’ve still got challenges).

Doesn’t the great hope of reducing headways hinge on automated train control, in which case the train operators being able to quickly move from one side of the train to other becomes totally irrelevant because there won’t be any operators on the trains?

Steve: And ATO depends on complete replacement of the signal system. FYI the Spadina extension is NOT being built with ATO because nobody thought to include it in the budget when the line was approved. The current ATO project budget only covers the oldest part of the line and it will be ages before they finish the whole thing. Then there is the small matter of more trains to run a closer headway and a carhouse to store them in. None of this is in the budget as funded projects.

SEPTA manages to do one person train operation on the Market Frankford line with the train driver performing the guard’s duties without having full width cabs by using closed circuit TV so I’m not convinced that full width cabs are necessary for the guard here.

I agree that only one crew per train should suffice, but I see another purpose for the full-width cabs in that they allow rapid step-back crewing without interference with passenger boarding/alighting at terminal stations regardless of which track the train pulls in to at either end of the train. If the TTC is going to have a prayer of getting headways down to even close of what their ambitions are, this design helps a little (but they’ve still got challenges).

]]>By: TTC Passengerhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25237
Wed, 01 Jun 2011 19:55:24 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25237I had a look at the Toronto Rocket on Sunday on my way into work and I’ve got a couple of comments.

I think the design of the ends is ugly; something better than that huge piece of black plastic that’s curved at the bottom could have been done pretty easily along with making the destination sign a readable size. On the subject of the cab, the actual area inside reserved for the driver is pretty cramped considering that the cab is the full width of the train. That means the unused portion of the cab represents a loss of space to carry passengers. Luckily that’s only repeated over two cabs per train instead of six. SEPTA manages to do one person train operation on the Market Frankford line with the train driver performing the guard’s duties without having full width cabs by using closed circuit TV so I’m not convinced that full width cabs are necessary for the guard here.

I also asked if the brakes shrieked and pointed to a T1 coming to a stop on the other side of the platform for example and I was told, “We hope not” by one of the TTC employees. The T1 braking cycle’s a problem that should’ve been fixed back in the late 90s when the trains were new. That ship sailed long ago so I wonder how committed the TTC and Bombardier are on revisiting that issue now in a manner serious enough to actually get it solved.

Does anybody here remember the detailed fact sheets the TTC had for all of the subway cars Gloucester through T1 and the streetcars from Peter Witts through ALRV that had nice plan and elevation drawings and detailed specifications in addition to a writeup? Were any of the TTC staff handing out such a thing on Sunday? I couldn’t find any and the TTC staff only had light information about how it’s nice that there are security cameras and electronic maps and the open gangways. I was hoping for some hard facts and figures but nobody could tell me what the horsepower rating of the motors was when I asked, for example. Your average car dealership does a better job of answering that kind of question than the TTC did on Sunday.

Steve: Bombardier had a nice handout at the media tour which has a lot of the details. The info should be on their website, but the page does not display much. I may scan and post the handout here at least until they get their act together.

]]>By: AJ takhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25236
Tue, 31 May 2011 03:38:31 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25236I’ve read a few comments about stop announcements, wouldn’t the easiest fix just be to have the stop announcement say any attractions that are around instead of re jigging the tiny little maps to have more info?

Steve: There are far too many “attractions” around some major stops, and the announcements would spend more time listing them than the name of the stop itself. Just think, for example, of the hospitals near Queen’s Park and St. Patrick stations, not to mention the legislature, court houses, the university, etc. At some point, people have to look at maps.

]]>By: Andrewhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25235
Tue, 31 May 2011 03:08:04 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25235A region wide sales tax is probably the most effective solution. In a number of cities in the US (believe it or not), referendums have been passed increasing sales taxes to pay for transit e.g. Measure R in Los Angeles. To make this politically palatable, there needs to be a relatively even distribution of funds in both the 416 and the 905 (probably about a 50/50 split based on population). There needs to be a heavy emphasis on commuter rail improvements because of their low cost and region-wide benefit. Toronto needs to be like Denver which is building the only decent commuter rail lines in North America outside NYC (the East Line and Gold Line) which are to be fully electric and have frequent service (15 minutes all day except late at night).

As for Sheppard, I would like to see it built eventually, but subways are costly and there is not enough money to build all the suburban subways in every other corridor with similar densities to Sheppard. On the other hand, the Sheppard LRT was widely hated so I think it is best to just leave it alone if there is no money.

]]>By: Michael Vannerhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25234
Mon, 30 May 2011 15:47:34 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25234I haven’t had the pleasure of riding the new TR’s but I look forward to seeing them in action. Although I personally would benefit more from new streetcars… one day, may be.

The suggestions for LED/LCD flat panel displays as opposed to the circa-1970’s vintage LED display is great in theory but not in practice. Not that the technology is faulty (although flat panels are not the most durable and easily subject to scratching) but that the technology the TTC is capable of delivering is right up there with the “automated quill pens”. To make the displays useful would require IT development staff, something the TTC seems to be lacking. The TTC already has a problem delivering up to date information, especially to their customers. How high on the list would maintaining the maps and station information possibly be?

The argument can be made that if the panels had advertising on them that the costs could be recovered. But there is a group of vocal opponents to advertising in “public spaces”. This group has many of the same people that pushed for the billboard “tax” that is now mired in the courts and has yet to deliver any public art to my knowledge. I could do without being bombarded with advertising but I accept it is a means to provide much needed revenue.

I asked the staff onboard the TR earlier what they would do for the Vaughan extension on the map and they said provision was made for lights on the map to indicate the extension.

I also asked the operator about the removal of the emergency stop devices located in the trains. He replied a study was done regarding how much people actually used them and it was determined they were not used enough to warrant their installation. He went on to say that it would be very simple to rejig the software in the alarm pull stations to stop the train when pulled, if and when the TR’s are fully automated.

On a side note, they had the doors of the train isolated today and while I was standing there someone had to get in the door to the left of the cab in the passenger compartment. For the first time I saw someone operate the emergency opening device to open the doors. It was a neat little thing, the operator stuck his key in the panel, opened it and pulled the handle to slide open the doors. When done, he reset the handle and locked the panel up again thereby closing the doors.

Ah well, it was an interesting display and one thing that a visitor brought up that you might have thoughts on … if they say please do not block the doors why are they putting butt rests alongside the doors at the ends of the trains?

]]>By: Stefan Mhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25232
Mon, 30 May 2011 01:13:49 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25232I was recently in Warsaw, and the transit system there is evolving far more rapidly than Toronto’s. The latest articulated Solaris buses have numerous large LCD screens which show the route and the position of the bus, as well as the name of the next stop. The portion of the route already covered is light in colour, that to be still traveled darker. Some screens also show news and advertising, as everywhere, on a bus rather like the VIVA artics. These latest buses also have on-board multi-language ticket vending machines as well as the small POP ticket cancellation units. There are numerous hanging holding handles. There are bays for wheelchairs with fold-down seats. Let’s say, I was very impressed by these buses.

The subway also is evolving, a new line is being built, and as well as ticket vending machines becoming ubiquitous, some interesting ticket options are now offered, including time-limited tickets (20 & 40 minutes, 24 hours, etc.) which included unlimited transfers in any direction. Vending machines offer such flexibility. And they are “open”, accepting cash and many cards, including an equivalent to Presto.

On my visits every every few months I see much improvement. One nice new feature is a major intersection, subway below, trams and buses above. The trams and buses share the same transit-only lanes and platforms separated from regular traffic at the surface station. More and more new-style LRV’s are in service. In Warsaw, much of the time trams run on separated tracks … I suppose that in rebuilding after the war, the main boulevards were made very wide and the buildings respectably high. This is so different from the narrow streets and low old-west style store-fronts of Toronto.

]]>By: DavidChttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25231
Sun, 29 May 2011 14:09:55 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25231Al T said: ““It would be simpler and more concise if the overhead signs just displayed the name of the next station and the arrows indicating the side on which the doors will open (e.g. <<<<< Davisville).

That is exactly what the very efficient and amazingly clean Barcelona subway has – it seemed very clear to us last week. BTW, in Barcelona all the ticket machines (subway and rail) offer multi-language capability and, as in London and other cities noted above, they display route-specific maps. They use the moving LEDs to show where one is and in which direction.

While on System Maps – one place where one is REALLY needed is at the bus stop of Terminal One at Pearson (and maybe Terminal 3). There may be a map inside the terminal but having one at the stops would really be helpful for tourists.

]]>By: George bellhttp://stevemunro.ca/2011/06/04/the-toronto-rockets-debut/comment-page-1/#comment-25230
Sat, 28 May 2011 20:47:09 +0000http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5221#comment-25230It would be nice if they could get one system map in each car. With busses and streetcars. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen people looking at those above door maps asking how to get to Jarvis or the skydome or something and not knowing what station to get off at. Or maybe get one of those customer service students to ride in each car and help out tourists.