Now it's time for the Legios to take on those they've yet to face. Currently struggling, they'll be hoping for a strong performance in these battles to lift them up the table, and away from the dreaded bottom space. Without further ado, and borrowing from Babylon 5...

And so it begins...

Legios Vs ParasitesMy beloved Parasites (which sounds a bit weird I know) are first into battle. As they appear on Legios scanners, the Legios fleet slightly splits up. The majority of them head for the northern Parasite squadron, whilst a few head for the southern group. However, it actually makes little overall difference as the Legios fleet is so slow. The Sparus head off to engage ahead of the main fleet, obviously crewed by the less popular members of the Legios fraternity. As per normal, their sole impact on the battle is a few pretty explosions as they die swift deaths. As the fleets close in, the Legios fighters swing ahead strafing the Parasite cruisers with their lightning beams, taking heavy flak fire as they do so. Though they suffer heavy losses, they do significant shield damage to the lead Parasite cruisers, which the Legios cruisers take advantage of as the fleets close with each other. Legios beams cause havoc on the lead Parasites, which, as they cause casualties on the Parasite cruisers, has the effect of releasing Parasite fighters into the battle earlier than the Parasites would have liked. The Parasites didn't have to worry though, as their fighters run amok through the Legios fleet, first taking out the extremely dangerous Annihilators before harassing the main Legios fleet. Under the cover of their fighters, the Parasite cruisers close the range fully at which point, Legios find themselves overwhelmed. They struggle on, but it's in vain.Legios 8% vs Parasites 69%

Legios vs Praetorian IndustriesNext up is sure to be a difficult battle for the Legios as Praetorian Industries turn up looking for a rumble. Their fast frigates and shuttles lead the charge, actually causing a few problems as they rattle hits off Legios frigates, causing a small amount of damage. It's short lived however, as Legios beams and fighters take their revenge. Meanwhile, the Sparus frigates run into a host of fighters and artillery fire, suffering heavy losses for little impact. As the fighter battle is joined, Legios beams lance out into the Praetorian cruisers. They cause heavy damage, but don't seem to be causing any kills. As they close in, the Praetorian ships don't suffer such problems and Legios casualties mount. In the north, the Legios line collapses and this allows the Praetorian fleet to roll up the line. Though the end result looks very one sided, there were several Praetorian ships on their last legs, including a dreadnought, which would have made the result much closer. The Annihilators in this battle had little impact.Legios 4% vs Praetorian Industries 93%

Legios vs OrderAs the fleets line up, the Order clearly have the numbers. The Sparus, undaunted (or maybe just stupid) by the numbers facing them head straight at the Order fleet. They of course have their now regulation “no effect” on the enemy before performing their pyrotechnics. As the fighters clash, the Legios do pretty well, causing plenty of hits but they're outmatched, the Order fighters winning out. Legios beams again lance out, ripping into Order shields. They're not killing any Order cruisers however, just stripping them of shields and causing heavy hull damage. The Order are holding the lead they gained by destroying the Sparus, thanks largely to the Legios failing to knock out cruisers. Then the Annihilators arrive and get stuck in. This instantly turns the battle, and though some Order bombers get through and knock out the Annihilators, it proves to be too late. To be honest, if the Legios had displayed killer instincts earlier, the battle would have been over sooner.Legios 63% vs Order 8%

Legios vs RebelsA new battle, a new way for the Sparus to die. And off they go, straight for the Rebels fleet or rather their guns. They rattle off their rockets as they close in and shockingly, they not only do some damage, but knock out a couple of Rebel frigates! Then they die. Legios fighters are heavily engaged with their Rebel counterparts, some even getting through to strafe the lead Rebels cruisers with their lightning guns, weakening their shields. As the fleets close in, Rebel cruisers, their shields weakened by the Legios fighters, take heavy beams hits and start going down before they're even in range. The dreadnoughts hit back though, their own heavy beam arrays taking a toll of the lead Legios cruisers. The Annihilators have closed the range though and as they open up, they knock out the first Rebel dreadnought. The battle is closely fought at this stage even when the Annihilators take out the second dreadnought. The fighter battle is sprawling above the Rebel fleet at this stage, which is leaving the Annihilators alone to do their deadly work. The Rebel missiles are hitting hard, keeping the fight close and as the fighter battle spreads over the Legios fleet, two of the Annihilators get taken out. However, they've already done well and their destruction come too late to save the Rebel fleet from defeat in something of an upset.Legios 41 vs Rebels 7%

Legios vs PiratesThe Legios are fresh from a couple of wins and feeling confident while the Pirates have been struggling of late. To try and bolster their spirits, they go into battle singing “A life on the ocean wave, a life on the rolling sea” which is a bit strange considering they're in space. They probably hurl insults over the comms as well, accusing their opponents of being scurvy dogs and such. The Sparus and the Pirate fast attack elements head straight for the main fleets, completely ignoring each other. Until they stray into each others range that is, at which point with a collective “oh yeah” they open fire. The Sparus however have support from the main fleet leading to heavy casualties in the Pirate fast attack groups. Ultimately, the Sparus are all destroyed however, though they have at least blunted the Pirate spearhead. Only two Pirate cruisers from the fast attack group survive, and as they circle around to rejoin the battle, they join the main Pirate battle group. The Legios beams hit the Pirate front rank cruisers hard, and as the Annihilators close the range, they add to the carnage. The Pirate fighters meanwhile, are getting thrashed by the Legios craft. The Ziz attempts to lead a fight back, flying straight into a hideous curtain of beam fire which rips it apart. The Pirates do fight hard, taking a toll of the Legios cruisers but the end soon follows.Legios 52% vs Pirates 7%

Legios vs Uni:TI really fear for the slow crawling Legios fleet in this battle, but at least they go into it feeling confident after a few wins. The Sparus seem reluctant however, initially hiding behind their own cruisers. They do eventually head off through, straight to their deaths from various beams, plasma and Corvette fire. The Corvettes initially cause heavy losses to the Legios fighters with little damage to themselves, but once the Legios cruisers start to help out, the Uni:T Corvettes do start taking losses. The cruiser support doesn't last long however, as Uni:T fire takes it toll on them. The Annihilators barely get a shot, and though one Uni:T cruiser is near death, the entirety of the Legios fleet is taken out. Though their fighters fight on, the end of the battle quickly comes.Legios 10% vs Uni:T 88%

Legios vs XedilcoThis battle potentially could start with the Sparus screening their fleet from the Xedilco Manned Missiles. They don't however, because the Manned Missiles are just too fast, getting to the Legios fleet before the Sparus have passed their own cruisers. One Manned Missile does heavy damage to a trio of Legios cruisers while another damages a fourth. As the speedy Xedilco fleet closes in, the Sparus greet the lead frigates with a hail of rockets. Though they do some damage and even destroy a few, the following Xedilco cruisers take them apart before crashing into the Legios line. The battle is sprawling and confused with ships heading off everwhere but the Legios maintain their formation, beaming the hell out of the lead Xedilco vessels. Few of their cruisers escape the crossing beams, though their fighters try to protect those that do survive. Xedilco fighters actually do well, but they're unsupported and above a fleet with tractor beams so their lifespan is short. The handful of cruisers that had escaped the beams of the Legios fleet are soon brought to bay and dsetroyed, ending the battle.Legios 56% vs Xedilco 7%

Legios vs TribeAs the Sparus head into battle, this time they do a fair amount of damage due to their opponents complete lack of shielding. Unfortunately any advantage this might have given the Legios fleet is eroded as the Sparus stray too close to the Tribe, coming under heavy fire. The Legios fighters dominate their opposing numbers in the centre of the Tribe line as the fleet hits home. The Legios beams cause significant damage but Tribe resilience allows them to stay in the fight until the range closes. Though the Legios push into the Tribe centre, the Tribe fleet begins to fold around their flanks and in the south, this proves devastating. The centre of the Tribe line, takes heavy casualties but does it's best to hold the Legios in place to allow their flanks to come around. At this point it becomes clear that the Annihilators rate of fire is no match for the high hit points and repair ability of the Tribe ships. The Legios fleet ends up all but surrounded, and though their fighters are largely unopposed, they're trying to hold off the inevitable. Legios 6% vs Tribe 55%

Legios vs ScavengersThe Legios fleet heads mostly for the centre group of the Scavenger fleet, with a few cruisers heading for the northern group and even fewer for the southern. The Sparus head off happily to their deaths, doing little as we expect by now. The Legios fighters do well against the first Scavenger ships they encounter, but when they meet the heavily armoured fighters they come up short, unable to cause any damage. As they've now strayed into range of Scavenger tractor beams, they start suffering heavy losses. Initially the Shieldwall cruisers hold up well under heavy fire, but it's only a matter of time before they start going down, the fire proving too heavy even for them. The battle's close and as the Annihilators close in, the expected shift to the Legios doesn't happen. The Annihilators unfortunately come under fire from Scavenger cruisers against which they don't last long. By now, Legios fighters are few and far between allowing the Scavengers attack craft free range across space, and their fire power slowly swings the battle the Scavengers way as they chew through Legios cruisers.Legios 10% vs Scavengers 37%

Legios vs EmpireDespite there being two groups to chose from, the Legios fleet seems to head directly forwards. The Sparus again have little impact, being little more than a side show to the main event. The main event being the clash of cruisers, which is preceded by the clash of fighters. The Legios fighters cause heavy casualties on the Empire fighters while beneath them, the light show begins. Under heavy beam fire, even Empire shields fold as the Legios gain the first cruiser kill. While their other cruisers battle away, the Annihilators slowly close the range and as the range is reached, their first shot gains them their first kill. The fight overall though, isn't going the Legios way. In the south in particular the Empire are dominating destroying all before them despite taking heavy damage. The north is more even however with the Legios taking out several cruisers and the dreadnought. Unfortunately the southern fight proves decisive to the overall battle. Empire fighters, freed from the southern conflict swarm over the Annihilators, destroying them and depriving the Legios of their fire power. This leaves the rest of the Legios fleet exposed and vulnerable, something the Empire take full advantage of.Legios 6% vs Empire 61%

Legios vs AllianceSome Sparus, seeming to know what's coming, try to hide behind their own cruisers. When the cowards are forced forwards, they do cause the odd damaging hit but largely, they're just used by the Alliance for target practice. In the fighter clash, the Legios are miles ahead, ripping apart Alliance fighters, though the Alliance do at least keep them off their cruisers for a while. As the cruisers clash, Alliance armour proves difficult for the Legios to penetrate, but with the Annihilators closing in, it might only be a matter of time. The Alliance dreadnought takes a fearful hammering as Legios ships switch targets to it in the hope of doing something other than bounce beams off armour. Eventually it's defences are breached and it's destroyed, but the Legios are struggling at this point. The heavy armour of their opponents is proving hard to breach and any hits that do, are quickly being repaired. Those repair supplies are limited however, so it's only a matter of time before they run out leaving the Alliance ships without that defence. Currently they're actually holding a decent lead, but then, deprived of repair supplies, ships start dying. They flank the Legios line, getting at two of the Annihilators, prolonging the life expectancy of their ships. Legios are pulling ahead slightly though, purely through attrition. If the Alliance had greater killing power, they'd perhaps have been able to take the Legios ships out, but now the Legios are clawing there way back into the battle and pulling away. The northern and southern Alliance groups surround the Legios ships who cluster desperately together for mutual protection. The last Annihilators falls, but by now the Alliance ships are nearly completely out of repairs and their armour has been worn down to the point where other weapons can damage them. The Legios slowly grind out a close fought win.Legios 43% vs Alliance 10%

So it's still very tight at the top, though the Scavengers are lurking just behind should either of the top two slip up. The bottom three are still yet to register. Legios did show quite well, despite some problems created by me...

So, here we are, the fights which could potentially decide the title. Anyone thinking it's a two horse race is overlooking the Scavengers who have crept up quietly to sit just behind the top two. Should either of them slip up, the Scavengers are ready to pounce and claim their spot. By the way, I know which battle you'll likely be looking for, and honestly, I'm just pulling names out at random so the order of the battles isn't deliberately done to build up tension. The one you're after is the last one. If you want to find just the one battle, go right ahead but then, why spoil things and potentially miss out on some surprises?

So settle in readers, open a can of your favourite beverage, put some dramatic music on, set lighting to 'atmospheric', let the dry ice flow and read on....

Praetorian Industries vs OrderFirst up to try to halt the rise of Praetorian Industries is the Order, and the first things they must face are the shuttles fast frigates of the Praetorian fleet. As the Order fighters swing forward to engage, they're met by artillery fire, blowing several out of space. The shuttles and frigates close and open fire and though they cause plenty of harassment for the Order, it's of no real consequence and they're destroyed in short order. Praetorian fighters sweeping ahead of the fleet are the next to be engaged and as Order fighters chew through the slower Praetorian craft, they are in turn destroyed by the drones. As the cruisers finally close the range, the battle begins in earnest. To the south of the Order wall, their front rank cruisers hit hard, destroying a number of front rank Praetorian cruisers though to the north, the roles are reversed with the Order taking the heavier casualties. Though the Order are battling hard, the continuous long range fire from the Praetorian bombardment cruisers and artillery dreadnoughts is steadily taking it's toll. The Order are also suffering from a lack of shield stripping ability as their missiles are scrambled, while radiation guns lack a high enough damage score and the number of rad guns is also becoming less as casualties mount on the forward ships. In the end, this takes too heavy a toll on the Order fleet and once more, as the front rank goes down, so the rest of the fleet follows.Praetorian Industries 89% vs Order 8%

Praetorian Industries vs ParasitesThe battle kicks off with the Praetorian fast frigates and shuttles screaming ahead of the rest of their fleet evenly splitting up with half heading for the northern Parasite formation, and half for the southern. Again they prove to be more of a nuisance than actual threat, achieving very little but at least occupying the enemy. As the fleets close in, Praetorian fighters fall foul of Parasite flak, taking heavy fire. The cruisers the Parasites are using to hold their own fighters back take heavy long range fire, the result of which is that when they're destroyed, the southern group release their fighters into battle very early and though the northern group hold those back a little longer, they still go in sooner than would have been liked. Fighting erupts all over the Praetorian fleet as fighters chase each other down while other strafe cruisers. The battle is closely fought, but as Parasite fighters are killed by AA fire or Praetorian fighters while their cruisers are given a taste of “revenge” scramblers, the Praetorian fleet is able to pull several heavily damaged cruisers out of range of Parasite fire. This leads to the forces mingling as the Parasite cruisers try to keep in range of the crippled Praetorian ships. In doing so, the Parasite ships leave themselves open to fire from all sides and while the Parasites are struggling to finish off Praetorian ships, the Praetorians are having no such difficulties killing surrounded Parasite cruisers. Though the end result seems very one sided, if the Parasite had finished off the number of heavily damaged Praetorian ships, the result would have been much closer.Praetorian Industries 82% vs Parasite 8%

Praetorian Industries vs AllianceThe Alliance go into battle holding out little hope of victory, but determined to try nonetheless. Their fighters are the first to feel the force of Praetorian fire, artillery cannons blasting several from space. Praetorian shuttles and fast frigates engage the Alliance fleet, but Alliance armour proves all but impervious to their fire as the 'no effect' message testifies. The shuttles rapidly fall casualty, but the fast frigates manage to survive to continue fighting for the duration of the battle. The fighters from both fleets are now in range and begin to battle each other, Praetorian drones proving far too much for the Alliance craft to deal with. Though the heavy armour of the Alliance fleet is keeping them in the battle, this has the unfortunate effect of forcing a number of Praetorian ships to switch targets looking for easier to damage ships. They eventually settle on the Alliance dreadnought, which soon finds itself EMP'd out of the battle before being destroyed. Though the Alliance are holding out, they're doing very little offensively themselves and as their repairs run out and their armour weakens, they're soon put to the sword. Or laser.Praetorian Industries 96% vs Alliance 9%

Praetorian Industries vs EmpireAs the fleets heat up their engines and move to engage, the Praetorian fast frigates and shuttles split up with the majority of them heading for the northern Empire formation. Once again we're treated to the sight of artillery fire pummelling Empire fighters before the shuttles and fast frigates engage. The shuttles pretty much bounce off, getting destroyed in short order. The fast frigates are more of an annoyance, surviving for longer but ultimately, they too are soon space debris. Those Empire fighters that have avoided the artillery fire initially do well against the Praetorian fighters, knocking out the slower ships. Soon though, they're being engaged by nothing but drones which prove a much harder target and the Empire fighters are now the ones exploding in flames. The bulk of the main Praetorian fleet has moved to engage the northern Empire formation and soon they're involved in heavy fighting. At this point the Praetorian fleet really starts to dominate, even in the south where they have fewer ships fighting the southern Empire force. The Empire dreadnoughts try to hold back the Praetorian tide, but it's futile. In the end, the Empire just isn't in the fight.Praetorian Industries 87% vs Empire 7%

Praetorian Industries vs RebelsBefore the main battle is joined, we have the usual Praetorian foreplay as their fast frigates and shuttles entertain the approaching enemy fleet. Some Rebel frigates take heavy hits from shuttle fire before their attackers are taken out. The fast frigates offer some harassing fire which last well into the main battle, but they too are taken out without doing a great deal of actual damage. The fighter battle is joined as the fleets close with the slower Praetorian ships ripped apart by the Rebel fighters. The drones again prove to be a much tougher prospect, taking out numerous fighters while suffering few casualties of their own. The initial assault of the Praetorian fleet crashes into the Rebel line and is checked. The Rebel dreadnoughts do much to halt the Praetorian assault as they're instrumental in knocking out a number of Praetorian cruisers. The Rebels are also losing ships at a similar rate however, and this soon leaves the dreadnoughts open to fire and though they hold up well, the sheer weight of fire soon tells and they're knocked out leaving two big holes in the Rebel lines. The Praetorian fleet starts to dominate but the Rebels aren't completely toothless without their dreadnoughts, hitting back hard. Though the Praetorians lose further cruisers, they're able to pick off the Rebels steadily. The Rebels have fought valiantly though.Praetorian Industries 57% vs Rebels 9%

Praetorian Industries vs PiratesThe Pirates downed their rum rations, braced the mainsail, did a bunch of other sailing clichés and headed into battle. As their fast attack elements began to move forward, the Praetorian shuttles and fast frigates headed for the central block of the Pirate fleet where, though they caused heavy damage to a number of Pirate frigates, they were quickly gunned down. As the Pirate fast attack squadrons closed on the Praetorian fleet they entered a world of hurt. Massive weight of fire destroyed several and only a few escaped to harass the Praetorian flanks. The main Pirate fleet is also hit hard but at least they hit back, though they are fighting an uphill battle. They batter away at the front rank of the Praetorian fleet, but though they're causing heavy damage, their own cruisers are falling. They fight hard but soon, the northern end of their line collapses leading to the remaining ships being flanked and finished off.Praetorian Industries 66% vs Pirates 9%

Praetorian Industries vs ScavengersThe Scavengers fleet picks it's way through the wrecks of the previous challengers (probably tagging bits ready to take home later) ready to engage the Praetorian fleet. The Praetorian fast frigates and shuttles head straight for the centre Scavenger formation under the cover of the artillery fire which is again knocking out fighters. With their heavy flak umbrella overhead, the shuttles and fast frigates are free to engage Scavenger frigates causing heavy damage before they're taken out. Though the Scavengers haven't taken any losses, they have suffered some heavy hits. The fighters now engage each other with again the drones fighting back for the Praetorian fleet after their slower fighters have taken heavy losses. The fleets crash together and the Shieldwall cruisers hold off the front Praetorian ships, holding them in place to be pummelled by their other ships. The southern Scavengers formation quite quickly takes out several of the Praetorian cruisers opposing them, as does the northern group. The centre has a harder time however, coming under heavy missile bombardment. The battle is very tight being fiercely fought on all fronts with both sides suffering casualties. For the Praetorians, their casualties are all being taken on their slower, shorter ranged cruisers and soon, they notice that their bombardment cruisers and dreadnoughts are nearly all that they have left and even they're taking hits. The Praetorian fleet is on the back foot and as their surviving cruisers struggle to pull back and open the range, their surviving frigates throw themselves at the Scavengers fleet to try and hold them back. The fighters on both sides by now have largely battered each other into submission, meaning that the Scavengers cruisers have no choice but to take on the Praetorian frigates themselves. As the frigates exploded, the Praetorian cruisers managed to open the range but even so, one of the dreadnoughts took a hideous battering from plasma fire. As it finally exploded, the other dreadnought rejoined the battle after pulling completely out of range and having to turn around. Both fleets are on their last legs, ships damaged on both sides and as the Praetorians close in again, the Scavengers takes out several attacking cruisers. It proves to be a last stand however as slowly, their remaining ships are taken out. In the end, a single dreadnought, five destroyers and a handful of corvettes and frigates are all that the Praetorians have left.Praetorian Industries 15% vs Scavengers 6%

Praetorian Industries vs TribeOnce more the shuttles and fast frigates and as they're up against ships which are largely without shields and armour, they do plenty of damage. All of which gets repaired but aqt least they're forcing the Tribe to spend repair supplies before the main battle. The shuttles stray far too close to the Tribe fleet though, getting chewed up rapidly. The fast frigates though keep the range up, surviving to continue chucking missiles at the Tribe fleet. As the Tribe fighters get involved, they largely take lots of hits without really hitting back. This 'sitting there and taking it' attitude continues once the cruisers close and the short ranged slugging begins. This time though, the Tribe really can't fight back as they take so many EMP hits that a lot of their cruisers are effectively taken out of the battle. At the southern end of the Tribe line, the EMP is less prevalent for some reason, which allows the Tribe to do well, but in the north, they're not having such a good time. The close in Praetorian ships at the southern end are taken out, but their bombardment cruisers and artillery dreadnoughts strike back. It's another closely fought battle as the Tribe ships start to form groups as they try to fend off repeated waves of Praetorian attackers. Though they're fighting well, they're slowly worn down and the Praetorian EMP is stopping much of what the Tribe could do.Praetorian Industries 57% vs Tribe 8%

Praetorian Industries vs XedilcoCrewed by the insane, the criminals and those the other Xedilco think smell, the Manned Missiles scream towards the Praetorian fleet, taking heavy fire from artillery cannons and fighters. Only one makes it through to damage Praetorian cruisers. The Praetorian shuttles and fast frigates try to shield their fleet from the fast approaching Xedilco ships, but they're largely ignored as the Xedilco plunge past. The shuttles and fast frigates do prove hard to hit, but largely do little themselves as the Xedilco shoot past them before crashing into the main Praetorian fleet. The Xedilco hit hard and for a moment, the Praetorian fleet reels before their assault. They're rescued by their EMP however, which locks down several of the Xedilco ships preventing them from following up their initial attack. This proves decisive as Xedilco casualties mount, making it even harder for them to follow up their first assault. Death soon follows.Praetorian Industries 86% vs Xedilco 7%

Praetorian Industries vs Uni:TAnd now......big one....the clash of the titans. First though, we have the usual charge of the light brigade as the Praetorian fast frigates and shuttles head off to engage the Uni:T fleet. Though the shuttles hurt Uni:T frigates, the fast frigates do nothing. The main battle erupts almost simultaneously with the fighter battle as the forward Uni:T cruisers come under heavy artillery fire while their corvettes are engaged by Praetorian drones. The drones prove devastating against the corvettes, ripping through shields and hulls quickly while seemingly being too fast and small to hit. Uni:T frigates come under a heavy ranged bombardment, exploding well before the fleets close. Uni:T hit back, first against Praetorian cruisers doing damage but no casualties, before pounding several Praetorian frigates into dust. Suddenly the first Uni:T cruisers loses it's shields, it's shield supporting corvettes having been taken out by drones. Being made of paper, it doesn't last long under the relentless Praetorian bombardment and soon, it's joined by the rest of the forward Uni;T cruisers. The Uni:T dreadnought comes under fire for the first time in any battle and, with the number of shots heading it's way, it's shields soon collapse. Destruction soon follows and with it's loss, the battle is over. I think everyone, including myself, was looking forward to a close, tensely fought battle where the result could have gone either way but in the end, this wasn't even close.Praetorian Industries 88% vs Uni:T 4%

So we have our champions, though the Rebels and Scavengers did their best to stop them making it a clean sweep. The minor places are still up for grabs and I think now, Uni:T are probably looking over their shoulders a bit worried by what the Scavengers could do to them. Though the Scavengers have dropped a few places, they have plenty of battles to make the gap up and given what they showed against the Praetorians, they may very well be right in there until the end. Unsurprisingly there was no change at the bottom.

Parasites are up next, hoping to trouble those above them for a place on the podium.

Last edited by Redd13 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As always, excellent reading. I will have to do this same thing myself ;)

--------------------------------------------------------------------BulletheadNihil iniquius quam aequitatem nimis intendereIn wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria

It will be most interesting to see what a human-operated fleet with the Parasites' "Unholy Trinity" -- Flak Cannon, Missile Revenge Scrambler, and the Plasma Slinger -- can do to each of the the opposing AI force's fleets.

dafrandle wrote:whats my prize?

Your prize? Apparently, a mod race that can curb-stomp almost any other race. Not only can Praetorian Industries force all nine of the official fleets to flee for their lives, but even the somewhat stronger mod races are joining them in racing to the escape pods. ;)

At least P.I. actually had to sweat for a few moments when fighting against Rebels and Tribe. As for unofficial races, it was a bit surprising that P.I. had serious trouble against Pirates and Scavengers. I won't stress too badly about that because imbalanced clashes of one unofficial race versus another unofficial race don't affect the core game itself. The way that P.I. demolished Uni-T -- years ago, the closest thing to an insta-kill mod race that GSB had ever seen; since then, benefiting from very persistent and exacting rebalancing by Darkstar -- wow. Not precisely a surprise, no, but another degree of confirmation that the P.I. mod is positioned at a rather different location on the balance curve than most players might otherwise assume.

Just so I don't wrongly get branded as a total kill-joy, I'm confident that this round of the Space Tyrant series was enormously fun for Redd13 to play! Each battle was surely like the distilled essence of the first 10 minutes of Revenge of the Sith.

And just so I don't get wrongly branded as an arrogant jerk, personally speaking I'm also a fan of Praetors; the kid has brought us a very colorful & action-packed mod that he's clearly poured his heart into. :) This first major effort of his -- just like anyone else's -- can't be perfect. I've seen some "freshman" mods which are better than his, but far, far more which are worse.

As for the official races...It's only when the party's over and the win/lose ratios are on display that I get a bit concerned about "the big picture". That concern extends well beyond the scope of the latest Space Tyrant competition featuring P.I., though. It serves as yet another set of proofs for a tangled chain of problems that are far from new for me.

Redd13 wrote:Crewed by the insane, the criminals and those the other Xedilco think smell, the Manned Missiles scream towards the Praetorian fleet, taking heavy fire from artillery cannons and fighters. Only one makes it through to damage Praetorian cruisers. The Praetorian shuttles and fast frigates try to shield their fleet from the fast approaching Xedilco ships, but they're largely ignored as the Xedilco plunge past. The shuttles and fast frigates do prove hard to hit, but largely do little themselves as the Xedilco shoot past them before crashing into the main Praetorian fleet. The Xedilco hit hard and for a moment, the Praetorian fleet reels before their assault. They're rescued by their EMP however, which locks down several of the Xedilco ships preventing them from following up their initial attack. This proves decisive as Xedilco casualties mount, making it even harder for them to follow up their first assault. Death soon follows.Praetorian Industries 86% vs Xedilco 7%.

Firstly, Xedilco are the ship (And crew are only symbiotes).Secondly, HISTM are not ship but big expendable munition.Thirdly, Xedilco are proud to be part of the Great Evolution!Fourthly, I'm totally desperate and hope at last a single victory ^^'

Xedilco are coming for you! http://positech.co.uk/forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5506

Bullethead wrote:As always, excellent reading. I will have to do this same thing myself ;)

It can reveal some shocking inadequacies in your own fleets. Xedilco had performed well in the few solo player battles that they'd fought but now......

dafrandle wrote:whats my prize?

You win...a room full of air!!! Oooooooo!

Archduke Astro wrote:It will be most interesting to see what a human-operated fleet with the Parasites' "Unholy Trinity" -- Flak Cannon, Missile Revenge Scrambler, and the Plasma Slinger -- can do to each of the the opposing AI force's fleets.

I don't know about human operated, I don't do any of that manual control malarky, just let the ships slug it out until there's a victor.

Archduke Astro wrote:

dafrandle wrote:whats my prize?

Your prize? Apparently, a mod race that can curb-stomp almost any other race. Not only can Praetorian Industries force all nine of the official fleets to flee for their lives, but even the somewhat stronger mod races are joining them in racing to the escape pods. ;)

At least P.I. actually had to sweat for a few moments when fighting against Rebels and Tribe. As for unofficial races, it was a bit surprising that P.I. had serious trouble against Pirates and Scavengers. I won't stress too badly about that because imbalanced clashes of one unofficial race versus another unofficial race don't affect the core game itself. The way that P.I. demolished Uni-T -- years ago, the closest thing to an insta-kill mod race that GSB had ever seen; since then, benefiting from very persistent and exacting rebalancing by Darkstar -- wow. Not precisely a surprise, no, but another degree of confirmation that the P.I. mod is positioned at a rather different location on the balance curve than most players might otherwise assume.

Just so I don't wrongly get branded as a total kill-joy, I'm confident that this round of the Space Tyrant series was enormously fun for Redd13 to play! Each battle was surely like the distilled essence of the first 10 minutes of Revenge of the Sith.

And just so I don't get wrongly branded as an arrogant jerk, personally speaking I'm also a fan of Praetors; the kid has brought us a very colorful & action-packed mod that he's clearly poured his heart into. :) This first major effort of his -- just like anyone else's -- can't be perfect. I've seen some "freshman" mods which are better than his, but far, far more which are worse.

As for the official races...It's only when the party's over and the win/lose ratios are on display that I get a bit concerned about "the big picture". That concern extends well beyond the scope of the latest Space Tyrant competition featuring P.I., though. It serves as yet another set of proofs for a tangled chain of problems that are far from new for me.

Rock on, Redd. Get those Parasites ready. ;)

I too am a big fan of the Praetorian mod, it's hard to be anything other than impressed by a mod of that size with so many options to use as well as the extra scenarios to fight. The result against Uni:T is one that makes me go "hmmmm....let's just run that again..." as a previous incarnation of my Praetorian fleet had there arses handed to them royally. But the result was the result. They struggled against the Scavengers because that fleet comes with a ship type that artillery struggles against, something with decent armour fighting at range. I have to say though, in none of the battles have I ever felt that the Praetorian fleet has ever been completely untouchable.

Rest assured that at the end, I shall offer my thoughts on my fleets and any improvements and changes they need. Even though the Praetorians won every battle, I can still see ways to improve the fleet.

Redd13 wrote:Crewed by the insane, the criminals and those the other Xedilco think smell, the Manned Missiles scream towards the Praetorian fleet, taking heavy fire from artillery cannons and fighters. Only one makes it through to damage Praetorian cruisers. The Praetorian shuttles and fast frigates try to shield their fleet from the fast approaching Xedilco ships, but they're largely ignored as the Xedilco plunge past. The shuttles and fast frigates do prove hard to hit, but largely do little themselves as the Xedilco shoot past them before crashing into the main Praetorian fleet. The Xedilco hit hard and for a moment, the Praetorian fleet reels before their assault. They're rescued by their EMP however, which locks down several of the Xedilco ships preventing them from following up their initial attack. This proves decisive as Xedilco casualties mount, making it even harder for them to follow up their first assault. Death soon follows.Praetorian Industries 86% vs Xedilco 7%.

Firstly, Xedilco are the ship (And crew are only symbiotes).Secondly, HISTM are not ship but big expendable munition.Thirdly, Xedilco are proud to be part of the Great Evolution!Fourthly, I'm totally desperate and hope at last a single victory ^^'

Well that alters my mental image of them. What I was picturing was the following happening on board the manned missiles:

Captain: Noble crew, today we go to war!!Crew: Hurrah!!Captain: Engineering? All ahead full!Engineering: All ahead full, aye aye sir!!Captain: Weapons? Arm the photon torpedoes and set phasers to "messy death"!!Weapons: Aye aye sir!! Erm.....Captain: Weapons? Is there a problem?Weapons: Erm...we don't seem to have any phasers sir...or in fact any weapons at all....Captain: WHAT!?! Then how are we supposed to fight?Weapons: Let me just check the manual....oh. Dear. It says here we're to fly up to the enemy and....explode sir...Captain: I see....wait, what? Right.....Loyal and noble crew?Crew: Sir?Captain: I shall give the rest of this briefing from my escape pod.....carry on.Crew: Sir? Sir?.......let's get the f*** out of here!!!

Bullethead wrote:As always, excellent reading. I will have to do this same thing myself ;)

It can reveal some shocking inadequacies in your own fleets.....

Speaking of which.....

Inspired by your example, I've been trying to set up my own little fleet tournament but I keep running into several inescapable conclusions that make the whole thing rather boring with the official races. No matter how I switch things around, the result is always the same. This is because I can't shake my life-long habit of being non-gratuitous. Battles don't happen without context and that context 1) believes strongly in preserving forces for future battles and 2) can't build an entire throw-away fleet on the spur of the moment to meet some specific enemy fleet. As a result, the fleets I build prioritize defense against all threats, then offense, and last of all speed.

So, in my imaginary universe, every cruiser and dreadnought has a Reflective Shield backed up by multiple Multi-Phasic and/or Rapid Recharge Shields. They also have at least 1 Guidance Scrambler, plus an EMP Shield, at least 2x Ultraheavy Armor, and at least 1 Advanced Armor Repair. In this environment, only a few weapons have the shield penetration to harm the Reflective Shield. Of these, plasma, disruptors, and the various missiles totally dominate the others due to greatly superior range. And given the ubiquity of Guidance Scramblers, plasma and disruptors hit FAR more often than any type of missile. It really doesn't matter what type of plasma you take or if you use Swarm Disruptors because their differences more or less balance out in terms of DPS, and they domintate all other options. So there's your main battery, regardless of race.

But plasma and distruptors have fairly big minimum ranges. This means you need a secondary battery to cover the shorter ranges, one that hopefully can deal with both fast frigates and fighters. Othewise, you need separate batteries for each type of target, which means both will probably be too weak for their jobs. This criterion leads to but 2 answers: the Cruiser Pulse Laser and the Parasite Flak Cannon. These weapons can cut through the shield of every frigate and are quite effective against fighters. Whle the CPL works best with a tractor beam, you don't need one of those on every ship, and to compensate the CPL has about 30% more range, so they balance out that way.

Given all this, just using stock Power Generators, there's not much room in the biggest cruiser hull for more than 2 plasma/disruptors, 2 CPLs, and either an EMP Cannon or a 3rd main battery weapon. You also have the option of going 4 main battery to 1 secondary if you're not expecting much frigate/fighter opposition (which should be the usual case). The Parasites can get by with 1 Flak Cannon per cruiser so can more easily afford a bigger main battery or an EMP Cannon. If you put a Dreadnought Power Generator in a cruiser hull, you usually gain 1 more slot for a weapon or defensive module.

And all this means there's not much of a battlefield role for frigates and fighters. No official race's frigates are fast enough to outrun plasma long enough to do anything useful (and if they somehow avoid the plasma, the CPLs eat them alive) and no fighter can do anything really useful to capital ships with such defenses. Thus, the fleets of all official races (even the Tribe) tend to look all the same, and fights are "push of pike" affairs between masses of practically identical cruisers and dreadnoughts.

Anyway, my so-called fleet tournament has led me to what appears for now to be a pretty secure paradigm. I'm disappointed because there's not a whole lot of point in doing a tournament now. So, I'm off to see if, with some "outside the box" thinking, I can break it with just the official races. I mean, the mod races break the paradigm intentionally, but stock races built to fight them don't fight each other very well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------BulletheadNihil iniquius quam aequitatem nimis intendereIn wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria

Bullethead wrote:As always, excellent reading. I will have to do this same thing myself ;)

It can reveal some shocking inadequacies in your own fleets.....

Speaking of which.....

Inspired by your example, I've been trying to set up my own little fleet tournament but I keep running into several inescapable conclusions that make the whole thing rather boring with the official races. No matter how I switch things around, the result is always the same. This is because I can't shake my life-long habit of being non-gratuitous. Battles don't happen without context and that context 1) believes strongly in preserving forces for future battles and 2) can't build an entire throw-away fleet on the spur of the moment to meet some specific enemy fleet. As a result, the fleets I build prioritize defense against all threats, then offense, and last of all speed.

So, in my imaginary universe, every cruiser and dreadnought has a Reflective Shield backed up by multiple Multi-Phasic and/or Rapid Recharge Shields. They also have at least 1 Guidance Scrambler, plus an EMP Shield, at least 2x Ultraheavy Armor, and at least 1 Advanced Armor Repair. In this environment, only a few weapons have the shield penetration to harm the Reflective Shield. Of these, plasma, disruptors, and the various missiles totally dominate the others due to greatly superior range. And given the ubiquity of Guidance Scramblers, plasma and disruptors hit FAR more often than any type of missile. It really doesn't matter what type of plasma you take or if you use Swarm Disruptors because their differences more or less balance out in terms of DPS, and they domintate all other options. So there's your main battery, regardless of race.

But plasma and distruptors have fairly big minimum ranges. This means you need a secondary battery to cover the shorter ranges, one that hopefully can deal with both fast frigates and fighters. Othewise, you need separate batteries for each type of target, which means both will probably be too weak for their jobs. This criterion leads to but 2 answers: the Cruiser Pulse Laser and the Parasite Flak Cannon. These weapons can cut through the shield of every frigate and are quite effective against fighters. Whle the CPL works best with a tractor beam, you don't need one of those on every ship, and to compensate the CPL has about 30% more range, so they balance out that way.

Given all this, just using stock Power Generators, there's not much room in the biggest cruiser hull for more than 2 plasma/disruptors, 2 CPLs, and either an EMP Cannon or a 3rd main battery weapon. You also have the option of going 4 main battery to 1 secondary if you're not expecting much frigate/fighter opposition (which should be the usual case). The Parasites can get by with 1 Flak Cannon per cruiser so can more easily afford a bigger main battery or an EMP Cannon. If you put a Dreadnought Power Generator in a cruiser hull, you usually gain 1 more slot for a weapon or defensive module.

And all this means there's not much of a battlefield role for frigates and fighters. No official race's frigates are fast enough to outrun plasma long enough to do anything useful (and if they somehow avoid the plasma, the CPLs eat them alive) and no fighter can do anything really useful to capital ships with such defenses. Thus, the fleets of all official races (even the Tribe) tend to look all the same, and fights are "push of pike" affairs between masses of practically identical cruisers and dreadnoughts.

Anyway, my so-called fleet tournament has led me to what appears for now to be a pretty secure paradigm. I'm disappointed because there's not a whole lot of point in doing a tournament now. So, I'm off to see if, with some "outside the box" thinking, I can break it with just the official races. I mean, the mod races break the paradigm intentionally, but stock races built to fight them don't fight each other very well.

From the sounds of it, you're trying to build each fleet where every cruiser can do everything. The problem with that type of ship is that it excels at nothing. I initially did the same sort of thing, so let me run you through the things I noticed and did to break that habit and get some specialization into my ships.

Often when I deployed my fleets, I'd have cruisers behind each other in a kind of conga line. Those at the front took more fire than the others, so needed better defences. Hence more scramblers, shields, armour and repairs at the cost of guns. They also tended to get up close and personal with the enemy so short ranged weapons were their best option. Cruiser lasers and that kind of stuff.

The ship behind that took less fire, though still a bit, so needed only mediocre defenses. Which allowed more guns. But the last thing I wanted was for these ships to park alongside their heavier defended mates on the front line, so they needed longer ranged weapons. Beams, rockets etc for these lads.

Last in line were a ship which was hardly shot at at all. So even more guns and minimum defences for these lads. Again, being so vulnerable they had to keep all their buddies between them and the enemy, so really long ranged guns were needed. Multi warheads, cruisers missiles, plasma etc for these chaps.

Then I had to think about anti fighter/frigate coverage. So, sitting in the middle of the fleet covering everyone under it's blanket is the AA cruiser/frigate with tractors, pulse lasers and those kinds of guns.

Add fighters screaming around overhead and suddenly....the fleet just looked a lot more interesting than a bland lineup of identical ships all doing exactly the same thing. The best fleet set up in the world? No. Entertaining? Yes. Trying to play to the strengths of each fleet whether it be speed, armour or whatever also helps to break up the blandness.

Redd13 wrote:From the sounds of it, you're trying to build each fleet where every cruiser can do everything. The problem with that type of ship is that it excels at nothing. I initially did the same sort of thing, so let me run you through the things I noticed and did to break that habit and get some specialization into my ships.

I think the main thing you did was require that fleets use all hull types, even if they're not the best for the job :).

I design my ships for 1 thing: to stand in the line of battle against their opposite numbers. I also build them under the assumption that they're operating on the frontiers of their empires at the ends of fairly long supply lines. This requirement has 2 implications. First, the ships must be as survivable as possible because they can't be replaced quickly. Second, it limits the scope for specialization because the loss of a few key specialists can cripple the whole fleet until replacement specialists arrive.

So, I end up with pretty homogenous fleets. But this is exactly what happened many times in real life. In the ancient days, everybody had mobs of pretty much identical galleys. In the Age of Sail, everybody had dozens of practically identical ships-of-the-line. Then, after several weird decades while folks digested the simultaneous appearance of metal hulls, steam power, armor, and much bigger guns, you again had several decades of homogeneity and stability during the predreadnought era. This then morphed into the dreadnought era and that would have continued much longer but for the artificial constraints of the post-WW1 naval disarmament treaties.

Often when I deployed my fleets, I'd have cruisers behind each other in a kind of conga line. Those at the front took more fire than the others, so needed better defences. Hence more scramblers, shields, armour and repairs at the cost of guns. They also tended to get up close and personal with the enemy so short ranged weapons were their best option. Cruiser lasers and that kind of stuff.

I dunno. I've tried this sort of arrangement myself and have found it, in general, to be inferior to an homogenous fleet of equal numbers deployed more in line abreast. It results in the heterogenous fleet having it's T crossed. With conventional ships (ie, no impervious armor tanks), the front-rank, short-ranged ships are soon overwhelmd by the concentrated fire of the homogenous fleet, after which the weaker ships fall quickly.

It all seems to boil down to the fact that you can make a non-tank cruiser essentially immune to everything except plasma, and can do so with enough slots left over to mount 3-4 plasmas, 1-2 Cruiser Pulse Lasers, and 3-4 layers of shields. And this combination seems about optimum, due to the way shields work. Going with 1 less shield for more plasma makes your shields MUCH flimsier than the enemy so your ships die long before their extra firepower can take effect. OTOH, going with 1 more shield and 2 plasma only lets your shields take a couple more hits than before (thanks to the stacking inefficiency) but you take such a big DPS penalty that you can't do much damage to the enemy.

Then I had to think about anti fighter/frigate coverage. So, sitting in the middle of the fleet covering everyone under it's blanket is the AA cruiser/frigate with tractors, pulse lasers and those kinds of guns.

This is my one major concession to specialization. Cruiser Pulse Lasers on their own are insufficient to deal with the fastest fighters. However, 1 or 2 Supercharged Tractor Beams mixed into a group of 3-5 closely-packed plasma cruisers is sufficient, so I do make specialized "Aegis" cruisers. These usually have 1-2x STBs, 3-4x CPLs, and 1-2 Guidance Scramblers, depending how many hardpoints the hull has.

Add fighters screaming around overhead and suddenly....the fleet just looked a lot more interesting than a bland lineup of identical ships all doing exactly the same thing. The best fleet set up in the world? No. Entertaining? Yes. Trying to play to the strengths of each fleet whether it be speed, armour or whatever also helps to break up the blandness

I think I'm going to have to come up with some self-imposed "supply limits", but "Naval Disarmament Treaty" sounds better :). Without some arbitrary constraints, there is definitely a strong incentive to go as bland as possible. Or perhaps I should remove the arbitrary constraints I already have, that whole non-gratuitous context that's always in the back of my head. See, I do try to play the campaign from time to time (although the prevalence of tanks in the enemy fleets tends to make this futile). I guess I need to embrace the whole gratuitous thing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------BulletheadNihil iniquius quam aequitatem nimis intendereIn wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria

Just some notes on your design and philosophy. You are fighting yourself and your imaginary war..... Not everyone actually fights the same style. By thinking everyone will be attacking you in the same method you are opening yourself to a whole can of worms.

Bullethead wrote:1) believes strongly in preserving forces for future battles and 2) can't build an entire throw-away fleet on the spur of the moment to meet some specific enemy fleet. As a result, the fleets I build prioritize defense against all threats, then offense, and last of all speed.

Speed is a survivabilty - in the campaign. If you hit an enemy you need enough speed to turn around and retreat. The minimum speed of that is around .08 - and that means they are retreating without engine damage.Historically many navies built single purpose fleets, and if not disposable, not designed to be long termed.

Bullethead wrote:But plasma and distruptors have fairly big minimum ranges. This means you need a secondary battery to cover the shorter ranges, one that hopefully can deal with both fast frigates and fighters.2 answers: the Cruiser Pulse Laser and the Parasite Flak Cannon.

Neither of those weapons can damage a cruisers main shields if said cruiser was to get under your main weapons quick enough. And Plasma is notoriously dicey at fast targets which means a dedicated rush fleet will be at your noses. In the age of sail England developed carronade only frigates that outgunned First and Second rates. With varying degrees of success.

Bullethead wrote:They also have at least 1 Guidance Scrambler, plus an EMP Shield, at least 2x Ultraheavy Armor, and at least 1 Advanced Armor Repair. In this environment, only a few weapons have the shield penetration to harm the Reflective Shield. Of these, plasma, disruptors, and the various missiles totally dominate the others due to greatly superior range. And given the ubiquity of Guidance Scramblers, plasma and disruptors hit FAR more often than any type of missile.

I personally ignore EMP shields except on certain cruisers designed to operate on one on one battles. The majority of combat the enemy will be concentrating on limited number of ships. If they have EMP weapons, the EMP shields will be rendered useless by the volume of EMP fire, and the EMP shields on your other cruisers will sit idly by being ignored).I have gone to plasma now with the introduction of the Parasites, but you will find many fleets tie in missile batteries with either fighters with target painters or target painters themselves. The Firefly rocket system.... firing more than 4 times faster than a regular plasma can swamp any guidance system. The funky flight pattern also renders them unlikely to come back to your ship if 'revenged'. I would also take a nanobot repair system.... It fixes armour, has better stats except for crew. I concur with the the armour though - making sure I have enough that fighter lasers are ignored and lucky hits are repaired.

Bullethead wrote:So, I'm off to see if, with some "outside the box" thinking, I can break it with just the official races.

Still - check out the SAC's, they break most of your rules in one way or another. And I still think you will be shocked at what a dedicated frigate fleet could do to a cruiser fleet. The word stun block came from them..... And also - if your not using the Parasites - you would be horrified to see how quickly your wounded cruisers are eaten alive by fighters. Fighters escorting an enemy fleet at can come to rocket range, fire, and flee to safety (and a carrier) while still in plasma range. I would also like to see your fleets and how they handle. The SAC tournaments have withered but I am sure some TLC could bring them back.

Redd13 wrote:Often when I deployed my fleets, I'd have cruisers behind each other in a kind of conga line. Those at the front took more fire than the others, so needed better defences. Hence more scramblers, shields, armour and repairs at the cost of guns. They also tended to get up close and personal with the enemy so short ranged weapons were their best option. Cruiser lasers and that kind of stuff.

The ship behind that took less fire, though still a bit, so needed only mediocre defenses. Which allowed more guns. But the last thing I wanted was for these ships to park alongside their heavier defended mates on the front line, so they needed longer ranged weapons. Beams, rockets etc for these lads.

I also use this deployment, more boxlike - though the ships with more dedicated close in weapons were second second string - I assume that if an enemy gets in CL range to slug it out the forward ships are going to be already rendered in a state of uselessness.The ones behind (third string) are mostly long range weapons and a pulse weapon to deal out some sort of damage to itinerant fighters. The last back end of the box are a dedicated carrier and a couple AF cruisers. The idea is if the enemy has fighters to deploy - they either engage the front line immediately, which is well protected, ignoring the third string weak cruisers, or end up in a melee at the carrier and AA trap, but still in range of the 3rd string pulse lasers.And yes I know 123stw, carriers, but I still put my stock in them - for the way I run fighter combat having a few carriers is handy.

Berny_74 wrote:Just some notes on your design and philosophy. You are fighting yourself and your imaginary war..... Not everyone actually fights the same style. By thinking everyone will be attacking you in the same method you are opening yourself to a whole can of worms.

Actually, it's exactly the opposite. My theory is that the enemy could show up with anything so my ships have to have adequate defenses against everything. "Adequate" means they last long enough on average for me to win. Obviously, all defenses can get overwhelmed eventually and this will happen to individual ships.

Neither of those weapons can damage a cruisers main shields if said cruiser was to get under your main weapons quick enough. And Plasma is notoriously dicey at fast targets which means a dedicated rush fleet will be at your noses.

(BH comes back from doing some experimenting)... You've definitely got a point there. However, as best I can tell, to make something so fast that it minimizes the effect of plasma, it accepts serious weaknesses in other areas. Like to fighters and EMP, for instance, but especially Fast Missiles. So, thanks. There's a good reason to include some missiles and fighters in my fleets :).

I personally ignore EMP shields except on certain cruisers designed to operate on one on one battles. The majority of combat the enemy will be concentrating on limited number of ships. If they have EMP weapons, the EMP shields will be rendered useless by the volume of EMP fire, and the EMP shields on your other cruisers will sit idly by being ignored).

This is something I'm torn about. I agree with you that most of the time they don't do much good, but OTOH the times when they do help are a close 2nd.

I have gone to plasma now with the introduction of the Parasites, but you will find many fleets tie in missile batteries with either fighters with target painters or target painters themselves. The Firefly rocket system.... firing more than 4 times faster than a regular plasma can swamp any guidance system. The funky flight pattern also renders them unlikely to come back to your ship if 'revenged'. I would also take a nanobot repair system.... It fixes armour, has better stats except for crew. I concur with the the armour though - making sure I have enough that fighter lasers are ignored and lucky hits are repaired.

Painters don't seem to help much if the other side has scramblers. It looks to me like with 1 scrambler per ship facing painted missiles, the Fast Missile only hits about 25% of the time and the slower ones considerably worse. Plasma OTOH hits between 40-60% provided the target isn't ridiculously fast.

BTW, why is it that rockets are affected by scramblers (or painters, for that matter)? I've always thought the difference between a missile and a rocket was that the missile had a guidance system and the rocket did not.

Thanks for the tip on the nanobots. But I had gotten the feeling that they didn't like to repair armor. While they'd do it eventually, they preferred to wait a while in hopes something else more to their tastes took damage, or so it seemed to me. Is there in basis for this or was I imagining things?

Still - check out the SAC's

What's that?

--------------------------------------------------------------------BulletheadNihil iniquius quam aequitatem nimis intendereIn wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria