The Great Conspiracy-what if Jesus was never born?

I saw too much hypocrisy. I had too many questions for too many decades, even tho I had been a minister myself. I felt completely dedicated to the
word but found too many inconsistencies.

My senses told me something was really wrong. I chose to follow my senses and have a relationship with God with no go-betweens. Once I did that, and
stepped away from Christianity - countless answers were given me. With new disclosures regarding the Bible my senses turned out to be right. I am
grateful!

My senses told me something was really wrong. I chose to follow my senses and have a relationship with God with no go-betweens. Once I did that, and
stepped away from Christianity - countless answers were given me. With new disclosures regarding the Bible my senses turned out to be right. I am
grateful!

Thank you! Have a good thread!

I've been there too MP... "deprograming" from Christianity was easily one of the harders, but most worthwhile things I've ever done.

I saw too much hypocrisy. I had too many questions for too many decades, even tho I had been a minister myself. I felt completely dedicated to the
word but found too many inconsistencies.

My senses told me something was really wrong. I chose to follow my senses and have a relationship with God with no go-betweens. Once I did that, and
stepped away from Christianity - countless answers were given me. With new disclosures regarding the Bible my senses turned out to be right. I am
grateful!

15 years ago, my answer and speculation would have been radically different. Today, it is the summation of my research and witnessing for myself that
I reply to all things religious.

With or without Jesus? With or without any profit of one's God. With or without any witness of faith. Mankind has come along way in the name of
faith. It has been used to advance the best and worst of things for 6000 years. There is no denying that faith runs the spectrum of good and evil in
mankind and is used according to personal understanding, translation and desire, be that for good or evil.

What would the world be like without such icons of faith? I would think it would have progress just as chaotic as it has in their presence. Against
your own request, this discussion cannot be fully explored without at least mentioning the fact that this coin does in fact have 2 unique sides.
Without and icon of faith:
-there would be war and barbary consuming brother against brother, nation against nation, species against species;
-there would be oppression of the weak willed and burdening of the ignorant;
-there would be corruption in leadership, because like gravity, some things are present no matter the origin of the thought;
-there would be grace under pressure and charity from the few, because the conscience of man is not without regret or heart, even before the first
book of a religious tome was cast;

Without delving too much deeper, without an icon of faith, we would be debating on this thread about how the world would look had a man ever existed
that embodied the grace of a god and the key to a greater existence after this life has come to pass.

...-there would be war and barbary consuming brother against brother, nation against nation, species against species;
-there would be oppression of the weak willed and burdening of the ignorant;
-there would be corruption in leadership, because like gravity, some things are present no matter the origin of the thought;
-there would be grace under pressure and charity from the few, because the conscience of man is not without regret or heart, even before the first
book of a religious tome was cast;

Thank you...An obvious well thought-thru response...

Curious, though...where is the evidence for the above quoted assertions..?

Oh I have, and yes, I completely agree. I think all faiths have been tainted by those scared intelligent yet unwise individuals who use them as a
scapegoat for their personal political or egotistical agenda's. Luckily, we have the internet, and everyone will inevitably see the truth that lay
within all faiths, a central truth that exposes the evil ones for what they truly are.

Selfish egotistical closed minded scared individuals.
"Forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Just remember the old saying, "If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha"
That alone should easily separate the inhumane or bad doings from the wise truths of any faiths texts and history.

We've come so far as a race, if only we could shake ourselves of the politics of dogma as well as politics and dogma, then maybe we would see each
other clearly.

First, it's debatable whether or not JC was even born in the first place. That's not a foregone conclusion.

But it doesn't matter because it's not the man that's affected so many throughout history, but the legend. But even if that wasn't there,
that niche would just be filled by some other alleged anointed one. Afterall a lot of JCs teachings weren't new or unique. The Golden rule for
instance was preached by Confucius long before Jesus's supposed birth. Many anthropologists believe that it was the first moral imperative of man, or
archaic man rather. Hell the world would probably be practicing the religion of Akhenaten- the first christian.

Would the world be different? Yes, but not by much. All the goodness in the world is not attributed to Christianity in any way shape or form. Some of
the worst things in the world are attributed to Christianity. Hitler was inspired by a book called 'On the Jews and their lies' written by
Martin Luther, father of the protestant movement.

And BTW I'm a little offended that you claim that America was formed christian. America was the most secular nation in the world. State was separate
from Church as it always should be. The founding fathers knew that to have freedom of religion, there needed to be freedom from religion.

I agree Good Wolf, Jesus seems like one of those politicians people emulate because they pander to the person's agenda. If that politician is
discredited they just move on to another idol. If people hadn’t idolized Jesus they would have idolized someone else.

Are you trying to step between me and Jah with the audacity to claim that you could be my savior? That you would have the life experience and
spiritual ability to council me? You have the effrontery to put yourself in the same sentence with Jesus? That in itself is blasphemy.

Or are you into black magic, or sorcery, and feel that you know me and know my journey and that I have fallen and need your help?

You are using the mental health dysfunctional tactic of; luring people into your web and then slapping them! Is this what Jesus would have done? Are
you a champion of Jesus or your are you promoting your own self interests and your fanaticism? Not a race baiter, but a religious baiter?

Are you looking to set yourself up to be victimized so then you can scream wolf, and claim "religious persecution?"

Shame on you for your arrogance and self-righteousness! You must have had your humility valeted! And Christians wonder why religion is going down?

Jesus was born. Then he lived. Then he set up the best religion ever and women were equal. Then Rome took control of that religion, and as a result He
is a rapist, like the old Roman Empire.

If he was never born......

The Romans cruelly savaged every natural tribe. We have no hope of women ever being above slaves. We have an empire that still gives us gladiators to
this day. We have blood and honour and no forgiveness.

In a nutshell, they were terrible times, but the corruption of the Romans would mean they would have reformed in some shape or another. Jesus gave us
hope, not thae eternity of the gladiators.

Originally posted by Clearskies
If God hadn't sent Jesus, I would've probably overdosed and died sometime around 1993.
I WOULDN'T know life and happiness and hope.
I would be a pawn of the devil.

If God hadn't sent Jesus, the dark ages would not have happened and your father would be someone else and you would not exist and old tribal ways
would still hold weight and you would not see a dichotomy between goodly ways and ways of the earth and the devil would not exist in a monotheistic
form and life would be more giving and we would share more and money would be important but we would have no need for greed and if only the Romans had
been 'decent.' That was their word I think.

And BTW I'm a little offended that you claim that America was formed christian. America was the most secular nation in the world. State was separate
from Church as it always should be. The founding fathers knew that to have freedom of religion, there needed to be freedom from religion.

“Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying
freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the
events of eternity.”

And…

John Adams who said:

“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and
now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.” [on June 28,
1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or
gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious
people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

And…”Posterity, you will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall
repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains.”

And…

Read some of the quotes from one of the first Supreme Court Justices…

Quote # 1: “There never has been a period of history, in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundation.”

Quote # 2: “It yet remains a problem to be solved in human affairs, whether any free government can be permanent, where the public worship of God,
and the support of religion constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape.”

Quote # 3: “The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by
prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects [denominations] and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the
national government.”

Quote #4: “There is not a truth to be gathered from history more certain, or more momentous, than this: that civil liberty cannot long be separated
from religious liberty without danger, and ultimately without destruction to both. Wherever religious liberty exists, it will, first or last, bring
in and establish political liberty.”

I believe that the original U.S. Supreme Court was correct in its interpretation of the Constitution. This sure does fly in the face of our current
Supreme Court. Could it be that Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story was correct in stating that political freedom cannot long be separated from
personal, spiritual freedom? Jesus said that freedom comes from obeying His teachings. His teachings are recorded for us in the Holy Scriptures.
Real freedom comes from obeying the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Scriptures.

Here are some quotes from some of the Founding Fathers about the Scriptures:
John Quincy Adams, the 6th President of the U.S., said, “I speak as a man of the world to men of the world; and I say to you, Search the Scriptures!
The Bible is the book of all others, to be read at all ages, and in all conditions of human life; not to be read once or twice or thrice through, and
then laid aside, but to be read in small portions of one or two chapters every day, and never to be intermitted, unless by some overruling
necessity.”

On September 10, 1782, Congress commissioned the printing of Bibles because of a shortage due to the Revolutionary War: “Resolved, that the U.S. in
Congress assembled…recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the U.S., and hereby authorize [Robert Aitken] to publish this
recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.” (Congress authorized the printing of the Scriptures!)

Christopher Columbus wrote of his trip, “There is no question that the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit, because He comforted me with rays of
marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures, a strong and clear testimony from the 44 books of the Old Testament, from the four Gospels, and from
the 23 Epistles of the blessed Apostles, encouraging me continually to press forward, and without ceasing for a moment they now encourage me to make
haste.”

Listen to Public Law 97-280, written as recently as October 4, 198 2: “Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping
the U.S. as a distinctive and blessed nation and people; Whereas deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy Scriptures led to the early
settlement of our Nation; Whereas many of our great national leaders—among them Presidents Washington, Jackson, Lincoln, and Wilson—paid tribute
to the surpassing influence of the Bible in our country’s development, as in the words of President Jackson that the Bible is “the rock on which
our republic rests”; Whereas the history of our Nation clearly illustrates the value of voluntarily applying the teachings of Scriptures in the
lives of individuals, families, and societies; Whereas the Nation now faces great challenges that will test this Nation as it has never been tested
before; and Whereas that renewing our knowledge of and faith in God through Holy Scripture can strengthen us as a nation and a people: Now Therefore,
be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the U.S. of A in Congress assembled, That the President is authorized and requested to
designate 1983 as a national Year of the Bible in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our Nation, and our national need
to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures." (Thomas P. O’Neill, Strom Thurmond Speaker of the House President of the Senate-Pro
Tempore. Approved October 4, 1982, Ronald Reagan)

The Constitution of the State of Delaware 1776 stated: “Article XXII Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any
office or place of trust…shall…make and subscribe to the following declaration, to wit: ‘I , do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus
Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore, I do acknowledge the holy scripture of the Old and New Testament to be
given by divine inspiration.’”

Ulysses S. Grant, 18th President of the U.S. stated: “I believe the Holy Scriptures, and whoso lives by them will be benefited thereby. Men may
differ as to the interpretation, which is human, but the Scriptures are man’s best guide…”

Warren Gamaliel Harding, 29th President of the U.S., said, “I have always believed in the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, whereby they have
become the expression to man of the Word and Will of God.”

Rutherford Birchard Hayes, the 19th President of the U.S., declared, “I am a firm believer in the Divine teachings, perfect example, and atoning
sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I believe also in the Holy Scriptures as the revealed Word of God to the world for its enlightenment and salvation.”

June 8, 1845, the 7th President of the U.S., Andrew Jackson said, “The book, Sir, is the Rock upon which our republic rests.” A few days before
his death, Andrew Jackson, said, “Sir, I am in the hands of a merciful God. I have full confidence in His goodness and mercy…The Bible is true. I
have tried to conform to its spirit as near as possible. Upon that sacred volume I rest my hope for eternal salvation, through the merits and blood of
our blessed Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

John Jay was the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and was concurrently president of the American Bible Society.

Numerous quotations from Scripture can be found on the walls of the Library of Congress, including: Micah 6:8; Psalm 19:1; and John 1:5.

Daniel Webster, a U.S. Congressman, a US Senator, and Secretary of State stated, “If there is anything in my thoughts or style commend, the credit
is due to my parents for instilling in me an early love of the Scriptures. If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on
prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm
us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity.”

Three quotes from Noah Webster, the author of the first edition of his American Dictionary of the English Language in November, 1828: “Education is
useless without the Bible.” “The Bible was America’s basic text book in all fields.” “God’s word, contained in the bible, has furnished
all necessary rules to direct our conduct.”

Woodrow Wilson, 28th President of the U.S., said, “There are a good many problems before the American people today, and before me as a President,
but I expect to find the solution to those problems just in the proportion that I am faithful in the study of the Word of God.”

Here are more examples of what our Founding Fathers said about Jesus, and how they knew that freedom comes from Jesus Christ:

Samuel Adams, known as the “Father of the American Revolution” and was a signer of the Declaration of Independence, declared, “I conceive we
cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler…that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be
overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere
established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the prince of Peace.”

Sir William Blackstone, who played a leading role in forming the basis of law in America expressed the presuppositional base for law: “The belief of
a future state of rewards and punishments, the entertaining just ideas of the main attributes of the Supreme Being, and a firm persuasion that He
superintends and will finally compensate every action in human life (all which are revealed in the doctrines of our Savior, Christ), these are the
grand foundations of all judicial oaths, which call God to witness the truth of those facts which perhaps may be only known to Him and the party
attesting.”

Alexander Hamilton, was a signer of the Constitution, and his dying words were:
“I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to him for mercy; pray
for me.”

Patrick Henry boldly declared, “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by
Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

Richard Henry Lee was a signer of the Declaration of Independence and was both a Congressman and a Senator and on November 1, 1777 recommended a
resolution setting apart: “Thursday, the 18th of December next, for solemn thanksgiving and praise, that with one heart and one voice the good
people may express the grateful feelings of their hearts, and consecrate themselves to the service of their Divine Benefactor; and that, together with
their sincere acknowledgments and offerings, they may join the penitent confession of their manifold sins, whereby they had forfeited every favor, and
their humble and earnest supplication that it may please God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of
remembrance.”

Harry S. Truman, 33rd President of the U.S., admonished, “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount. The
fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don’t think we
emphasize that enough these days. If we don’t have a proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government
which does not believe in rights for anybody except the State.”

On March 16, 1776, as recorded in the Journal of Congress, General William Livingston, as a signer of the Constitution, and as a Congressman presented
this resolution in Congress , which passed without dissent: “We earnestly recommend that Friday, the 17th day of May next, be observed by the
colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer, that we may with united hearts confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and by
a sincere repentance and amendment of life appease God’s righteous displeasure, and through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ to obtain His
pardon and forgiveness.”

Charles Cotesworth Pinckney was a signer of the Constitution and said,
“Blasphemy against the Almighty is denying His being or providence, or uttering contemptuous reproaches on our Savior Christ. It is punished, at
common law by fine and imprisonment, for Christianity is part of the laws of the land.”

Benjamin Rush was a physician, signer of the Declaration of Independence, “father of public schools” and a principle promoter of the American
Sunday School Union. This Benjamin Rush humorously described himself: “I have alternately been called an Aristocrat and a Democrat. I am neither. I
am a Chistocrat.”

Roger Sherman, who was the only one of the Founding Fathers to sign all four of the major founding documents (The Articles of Association, The
Declaration of Independence, The Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution) wrote the following: “I believe that God having elected some of
mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon
and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer…”

U.S. Congressman and Senator Daniel Webster declared: “The Gospel is either true history, or it is a consummate fraud; it is either a reality or an
imposition. Christ was what He professed to be, or He was an impostor. There is no other alternative. His spotless life in His earnest enforcement of
the truth—His suffering in its defense, forbid us to suppose that he was suffering an illusion of a heated brain. Every act of His pure and holy
life shows that He was the author of truth, the advocate of truth, the earnest defender of truth, and the uncompromising sufferer for truth.”

Here are some quotes from the Founding Fathers regarding the Holy Spirit:

On March 6, 1799, President John Adams called for a National Fast Day in which he appealled to U.S. citizens “that they call to mind our numerous
offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore his pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and
Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable
obedience to his righteous requisitions in time to come…”

Referring again to Christopher Columbus, he once said of his voyage that, “There is no question that the inspiration was from the Holy
Spirit…”

The Continental Congress issued the First national Proclamation of Thanksgiving on November 1, 1777 that included the following paragraph: “That it
may please Him, to prosper the trade and manufactures of the people, and the labor of the husbandman, that our land may yet yield its increase; to
take school and seminaries of education, so necessary for cultivating the principles of true liberty, virtue and piety, under His nurturing hand, and
to prosper the means of religion for the promotion and enlargement of that kingdom which consisteth ‘in righteous, peace and joy in the Holy
Ghost.’”

General Robert E. Lee said, “There are things in the old Book which I may not be able to explain, but I fully accept it as the infallible Word of
God, and receive its teachings as inspired by the Holy Spirit.”

Benjamin Rush who described himself as a Christocrat, wrote to his wife during his final illness, “My excellent wife, I must leave you, but God will
take care of you. By the mystery of Thy holy incarnation; by Thy holy nativity; by Thy baptism, fasting, and temptation; by Thine agony and bloody
sweat; by Thy cross and passion; by Thy precious death and burial; by Thy glorious resurrection and ascension, and by the coming of the Holy Ghost,
blessed Jesus, wash away all my impurities, and receive me into Thy everlasting kingdom.”

Abraham Lincoln said, on March 30, 1863: “Whereas, the Senate of the U.S. devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty
God in all affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for national prayer and
humiliation: And whereas, it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins
and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth,
announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord: And, insomuch as we know that,
by His divine law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishments and chastisement in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful
calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins to the needful end of our
national reformation as a whole people?”

The evidence is overwhelming. Anyone claiming otherwise is a liar and should be trusted with nothing.

We are a nation founded on Christian and Biblical principles. This awesome heritage has been deliberately hidden from all public schools of learning
and most people today have been duped into believing that we are a purely secular nation. Nothing could be farther from the truth. We have the
evidence and we need to proudly proclaim it!

The citizens of the United States have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved these many years in peace and
prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious
Hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts,
that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own.

Psalm 33:12 “Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.”

Proverbs 14:34 “Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.”

...-there would be war and barbary consuming brother against brother, nation against nation, species against species;
-there would be oppression of the weak willed and burdening of the ignorant;
-there would be corruption in leadership, because like gravity, some things are present no matter the origin of the thought;
-there would be grace under pressure and charity from the few, because the conscience of man is not without regret or heart, even before the first
book of a religious tome was cast;

Thank you...An obvious well thought-thru response...

Curious, though...where is the evidence for the above quoted assertions..?

OT

As some have stated in the interim between your post and this, there have been other leaders, scholars, pholosophers and those that would call
themselves prophet or a conduit to a higher power. Oracles, seers, false gods...all existed before Christ. Then there are several "isms" that came
before, with Hinduism being one of the oldest organized religions recorded.

Think also of the barbary as we understand it of neolithic man. It is theorized that they were as much the duality of man as we are in modern times.
Without any knowledge of an icon of faith, they were able to build strong tribes, raise children, create war, create harmony, trade with other
tribes.

Of what we do know, look at the Indians after they reached the north american continent. They set up distinct rules for trade and governed their
tribes, they cared for their women, respected their elders, made war with their enemies and welcomed strangers from across the globe. While they did
give respect to a number of gods, they did not have an iconic symbol that narrowed their faith into an organized religion. Rather they thanked the
element that blessed them and cursed the element that harmed them.

Without a Christ symbol (man or myth), humanity will always create that which it needs to fill the empty space within the void of self doubt and ego.
As well, when things go well, man needs something to thank, beit a god, prophet, angel, hero, or ego. Just as with physics, within everything
contains the equal and the opposite, therby meaning that man also needs something to blame for all misfortunes.

You cannot blame the tree that stands rooted in the ground for the broken nose that lies rooted on your face. The tree did not move. However, all to
often man finds fault with the tree to avoid shamings his own ego.

That is a philosphical representation of why there will always be some deity, whether real or imaginary. Because man will not blame self, when else
can be made.

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