Sunday, 16 February 2014

As Witterings From Witney observes we were privileged this morning to have "a member of our real government give up his time to share his thoughts" as Barroso appeared on Andrew Marr (interview starts 44:13). As expected Marr gave him a rather easy ride, though he acknowledged that reform of the EU involved Treaty change.

But to Barroso’s credit, in stark contrast to our own politicians, he did not hide the real intent of the EU (the full transcript of his interview can be found here). Barroso made clear that Cameron’s wish to renegotiate the freedom of movement, was not possible as it infringes on the four fundamental freedoms (my emphasis throughout):

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO:
We have to make a clear distinction. One thing is freedom of movement, I don’t think it is possible to renegotiate. It’s a fundamental principle of the internal market. We have an internal market based on the freedom of movement- of goods, of services, of capital and of people -so the British people, British companies have unrestricted access to the internal market.

So I don’t ...

ANDREW MARR:
So that’s not up for grabs, okay.

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO:
I don’t think it’s possible…

Barroso then notes that reforming EU treaties is “very difficult”:

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO:
That’s what I think David Cameron is expecting. Now I have to be very honest. The reforms of the treaties are extremely difficult in the European Union because they require unanimity. So any point that Britain wants to make for a reform of the treaty requires the other twenty - seven countries …they are sovereign countries as well, to accept

Crucially though, while the rest of the UK media is remaining silent, Barroso offered up more substantial confirmation that a new Treaty is on its way:

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO:
I think sooner or later [deeper fiscal union] will be unavoidable to have reforms for deeper integration for the Euro area. And by the way it’s not only the pro-Europeans. The markets are demanding that, and in fact we have been moving in that direction in respect of the current treaty.

I cannot say a single European government ... but increased governance. Yes certainly because at the end - and we have learned this through the financial crisis - at the end the solidity, the credibility of a currency depends on the solidity of the institutional or political construction behind it.

ANDREW MARR:
Are you speaking for Europe or not in effect. But that kind of change would require a presumably a new treaty?

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO:
Yes...

ANDREW MARR:
It just seems to me that what David Cameron is saying he wants, which is a much looser European Union, is not what’s going to happen, and he’s going to be confronted with this deeper Europe.

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO:
What I think it’s important to have in mind is the following. I don’t see a fundamental contradiction between deepening the Euro area - that is certainly desirable - and having some flexibility for the European Union provided the general framework is kept as it is. For instance, we have already now countries that are the Euro, countries who are not in Euro. We have the Schengen where Britain is not a member and we have, for instance, some opt - outs for justice and home affairs. So it is possible, if there is wisdom on all sides and if it’s a constructive discussion, to come to some arrangement.

Barroso lays it out clearly that a two tier EU is now on the cards - with no "fundamental contradiction". The EU is going for deeper integration leaving non-Euro members behind. In other words the "flexibility" will be the associate membership option of the new Treaty.

10 comments:

Barroso could not have been clearer could he on where the new treaty will be headed. As I've pointed out before Cameron will be twixt rock and hard place when associate membership is brought in as the reasons he puts forward for our membership are fast disappearing.. Presumably as we will not be allowed at the 'top table' we may as well pack our bags now and be done with it.

Agree WFW and TBF. One great problem for Cameron is that such a 'downgrade' (should it ever take place which itself is doubtful) will not attract the electorate, and will bring nothing substantial to the UK upon which to base his prized referendum in 2017. (assuming he will be in office - also doubtful).

In the light of the proposed new treaty coming, its worth asking Tory MPs/ministers if they would kindly inform us precisely what is being "negotiated" in our name? In any event would Barroso and his pals want to be bothered with the UK whingeing about "return of powers" just as they are in the business of organising another power-grab from the UK? I think the answer will be some sort of : Run off little boy, wer're busy'.

"In any event would Barroso and his pals want to be bothered with the UK whingeing about "return of powers" just as they are in the business of organising another power-grab from the UK?"

Yes...absolutely. The EU's priority is more integration and the message to the UK is "either you're with us or not". Recent polling shows a number of EU countries couldn't care less whether we are in the EU or not.

No-one can blame Barroso for this, he's only doing what the EU has always said it would. But our own politicians are going to be caught out - their pretence of it's just about economics laid bare.

"Our own politicians are going to be caught out", nothing is so sure as thet, aren't they always...officially! I do like the idea of asking our politicos about the new Treaty and see what answers we get...must try it.

How about Cameron passing off the associate membership business as successful renegotiation, and the changes the EU was going through anyway, as its realisation that his ideas of reform were needed and heeded? The complete triumph of "In Europe but not ruled by Europe".

It doesn't seem off the cards and the fact that it has nothing to do with reality is neither here not there. In the UK, we hear a lot of things about the EU which are purely for home consumption - as we can see with the general thrust of Cameron's renegotiation patter and Barrosso's ideas on the subject.

Of course, there's every reason to doubt that Cameron will be around to do any of this anyway.

I would agree that a tactic of Cameron would be to try to pass this off "as successful renegotiation".

I'm not sure he would get away with it. They tried the "it's only a reforming Treaty" with Lisbon but it fooled no-one. Cameron's backbenches would rebel in huge numbers I would guess. The newspapers in the main would have no choice but to campaign against it. Like they did with Lisbon.

That of course as you rightly say assumes Cameron is around - more likely this will land on Miliband's lap - with a "eurosceptic" Tory opposition without Cameron as leader.

Then of course we have the pesky business of the European Act 2011 which would trigger a referendum. Almost certainly the UK would reject the Treaty in such a referendum causing an EU crisis.

Had the Tories been consistently ahead in the polls and particularly if they'd had a majority, I don't believe we'd have seen these gestures and referendum patter. The line would have been that people weren't interested in Europe and Cameron wasn't going to bang on about it; the subject could have been avoided completely.

I've seen this as presented with the assumption of GE defeat in mind; to stop it being as bad a drubbing as it might be and to prepare a eurosceptic position for opposition.

Fun times indeed.

The referendum lock might prove to be significant, but I wouldn't have complete faith in it.

There's wriggle room in the "referendum lock" for them to get out of it for sure...I look at it as less a "legal lock", more "political lock". I'm not sure they can get away with a new Treaty without it not going to referendum.

Though of course we have to factor in the uncertainty of the outcome of 2015 GE.

About The Boiling Frog

A blog about the anti-democratic and pernicious European Union with particular emphasis on its impact here in the UK. Also I'll cover British politics and occasionally chuck some whimsical nonsense in as well.

EU quotes

"[There's no way Britain could accept that] the most vital economic forces of this country should be handed over to an authority that is utterly undemocratic and is responsible to nobody"(British Prime Minister Clement Attlee in response to the Schuman Plan 1950)

"We should frankly recognise this surrender of sovereignty and its purpose."(Edward Heath, Hansard, 17 November 1966)

“America would welcome it if Britain should apply for full membership in the [EEC], explicitly recognising that the Rome treaty was not merely a static document but a process leading towards political unification.”(George Ball Under-Secretary of State for JFK 1961)

"The single market was the theme of the Eighties; the single currency was the theme of the Nineties; we must now face the difficult task of moving towards a single economy, a single political unity."(Romano Prodi, 13 April 1999)

"We perform the duties of freemen; we must have the privileges of freemen ..."(Chartists 1836)

"The [Lisbon Treaty] is indeed a tidying -up exercise, it sweeps the rest of our sovereignty under the Brussels carpet."(Lord Pearson)"The Government’s guiding principle was...to swallow the lot and swallow it now."(Sir Con O’Neill, the British diplomat who led the UK’s negotiations for EEC membership under Heath)

"I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe."(Kenneth Clarke, Conservative Chancellor in International Currency Review Vol 23 No 4 1996)"The EU is the old Soviet Union dressed in Western clothes"(President Gorbachev)

"Europe's power is easy to miss. Like an 'invisible hand', it operates through the shell of traditional political structures. The British House of Commons, British law courts, and British civil servants are still here, but they have all become agents of the European Union implementing European law. This is no accident."(Mark Leonard co-founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, the first pan-European think tank)

“I have lived in your future ….and it doesn’t work”(Russian dissident Vladimir Bukovsky on the EU)

"Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"(Treaty of Rome 1957)

"This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union..."(Maastricht Treaty 1992)

"Now we've signed it - we had better read it"(Douglas Hurd, former Foreign Secretary on the Maastricht Treaty)"The supremacy of Community Law when in conflict with national law is the logical consequence of the federal concept of the Community"(H P Ipsen, 1964 - 9 years before the UK joined)

"[Norway] held a referendum [on the EU] that went the wrong way"(Douglas Hurd, former Foreign Secretary on the Maastricht Treaty)

"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals we dare not present to them directly. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and diguised" (Valery Giscard D'Estang. on the Lisbon treaty)

"The Tories have been indulging in their usual double talk. When they go to Brussels they show the greatest enthusiasm for political union. When they speak in the House of Commons they are most anxious to aver that there is no commitment whatever to any political union."(Labour MP Hugh Gaitskell, October 1962)"It means the end of a thousand years of history."(Hugh Gaitskell - 1906-63, on a European federation; speech at Labour Party Conference, 1962)

"The Constitution is the capstone of a European Federal State."(Guy Verhofstadt, Belgian Prime Minister)'If it's a Yes we will say "on we go", and if it's a No we will say "we continue".'(Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Council)

“The substance of the Constitution is preserved. That is a fact.”(German Chancellor Angela Merkel on the Lisbon Treaty)

"I have read some of [the Lisbon Treaty] but not all of it." (Caroline Flint, former Minister for Europe)

"The primary reason why Britain entered into [EEC] negotiations was political, political in its widest sense."(Edward Heath, lecture at Harvard, 1967)

“They must go on voting until they get it right.”(Jose Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission)

"If you go through all the structures and features of this emerging European monster you will notice that it more and more resembles the Soviet Union."(Russian dissident Vladimir Bukovsky)"The European Union is a state under construction."(Elmar Brok, Chairman of the European Parliament’s Committee on Foreign Affairs)

“I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account at all,”(French PM Raymond Barre)

“Let’s be clear about this. The rejection of the constitution was a mistake that will have to be corrected.”(Valéry Giscard d’Estaing)

“The 'no' votes were a demand for more Europe, not less.”(Romano Prodi, former President of the European Commission)"I don’t want an ‘in or out’ referendum because I don’t think out is in Britain’s interests.”(David Cameron, who won't hold a referendum because he thinks he'll lose)

"In Brussels one says "member state". You may imagine it means the same thing as country or state, but "member state" does not. Note that adjective. Member modifies state. Like "wooden" modifies "leg". The noun stays the same, but the essence of the thing is gone." (Mary Ellen Synon, Bruges Group Annual Conference 2013)

"No government dependent on a democratic vote could possibly agree in advance to the sacrifices which any adequate plan for European Union must involve. The people must be led slowly and unconsciously into the abandonment of their traditional economic defences, not asked…"(Peter Thorneycroft, former Tory MP)

"[Bailouts are] expressly forbidden in the treaties by the famous no-bailout clause. De facto, we have changed the treaty."(French Europe minister Pierre Lelouche)

"The European Union must take a decisive step towards a federal economic government, with common fiscal policies and a larger budget, if it is to save the euro. "(Andrew Duff Lib Dem MEP 2011)

"The transfer by the States from their domestic legal system to the Community legal system of the rights and obligations arising under the Treaty carries with it a permanent limitation of their sovereign rights... against which a subsequent act incompatible with the concept of the Community cannot prevail"(ECJ Case 6/64)

"[The EU Constitution represents] a visible move in only one direction...from intergovernmentalism to supranationalism...and this should be explained to the people of Europe"(Czech Republic President Vaclav Klaus)

"The European Parliament is a caucusing body that is incredibly responsive to lobbying institutions, but it is completely unresponsive to public opinion."(Gisela Stuart, Labour MP June 2009)

“Millions of people in this country will feel as I do, that legislation passed in this way, with no consent, cannot command the assent of the country and would lack moral and constitutional validity."(Douglas Jay MP during 2nd reading of European Communities Bill 1972)

"It is an illusion to think that [EU] states can hold on to their autonomy."(Hans Tietmeyer, head of the Bundesbank 1991)"...within ten years 80% of our economic legislation, perhaps even fiscal and social as well’ would come from the EU."(Jacques Delors, President of EU Commission 1988)

"The huge cost of the Common Agricultural Policy to taxpayers and consumers far outweighs any benefit to them..."(Memo by MAFF to House of Lords European Communities Committee 1995)

"...we must now face the difficult task of moving towards a single economy, a single political unity."(Romano Prodi, President of EU Commission 1999)

"The day of the nation state is over."(Roman Herzog, German president, 1996)

"The European system of supranationality comes at the cost of democracy."(Lord Leach of Fairford)

"A European currency will lead to member nations transferring their sovereignty over financial and wage policy as well as monetary affairs."(Hans Tietmeyer, head of the Bundesbank, 1991)

"The single currency is the greatest abandonment of sovereignty since the foundation of the European Community: the decision is of an essentially political nature"(Felipe Gonzalez, a Spanish former PM, 1998)

"The [EU] Council of Ministers will have far more power over the budgets of member states than the federal government in the United States has over the budget of Texas."(Jean-Claude Trichet, current head of the European Central Bank)

"One must never forget that monetary union, which the two of us were the first to propose more than a decade ago, is ultimately a political project. It aims to give a new impulse to the historic movement toward union of the European states"(Giscard d’Estaing, who drafted the EU Constitution 1997)

"The process of monetary union goes hand in hand, must go hand in hand, with political integration and ultimately political union. EMU [economic and monetary union] is, and always was meant to be, a stepping stone on the way to a united Europe"(Wim Duisenberg, first president of the EU Central Bank)

"Once the interlude of [WWI] was over, [countries] all went back to the rules and customs of traditional parliamentary democracies. I felt out of my depth."(Jean Monnet 'Father of Europe')

"We need to build a United States of Europe with the [EU] Commission as government."(Viviane Reding, EU Commissioner 2014)

"We had imagined a political 'grand design', a new international order..."(Jean Monnet 'Father of Europe')

"I like the English style of life. I feel more at home here in London"(Tintin creator, Belgian born Herge)

"We are not forming coalitions between States, but union among people"(Jean Monnet, 'Father of Europe')

"The sovereign nations of the past can no longer solve the problems of the present: they cannot ensure their own progress or control their own future. And the Community itself is only a stage on the way to the organised world of tomorrow."(Jean Monnet, 'Father of Europe')

"That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European super-state was ever embarked on will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era. And that Britain . . . should ever have become part of it will appear a political error of the first magnitude."(Lady Thatcher, Statecraft)

"There is no question of Britain losing essential national sovereignty”(Ted Heath)

The British Government Knew The Consequences In 1971

...the transfer of major executive responsibilities to the bureaucratic Commission in Brussels will exacerbate popular feeling of alienation from government. To counter this feeling, strengthened local and regional democratic processes within the member states and effective Community regional economic and social policies will be essential.Parliamentary sovereignty will be affected as we have seen. But the need for Parliament to play an increasing (if perhaps more specialised) role may develop. Firstly, although a European Parliament might in the longest term become an effective, directly elected democratic check upon the bureaucracy, this will not be for a long time, and certainly not in the decade to come. In the interval, to minimise the loss of democratic control it will be important that the British Parliamentarians should play an effective role both through the British membership in the European Parliament and through the processes of the British Parliament itself.