Stans Alpha 24h rear 16:8 lacing pattern — understanding this provides a more equally spoke tension but which would build a better wheel? I assume through greater spoke count it'll be the 28h option?

Also, would a 20h front radially laced be strong enough for a rider ~78kg? Currently thinking of pairing a 24h to the 28 rear but also have the option to go 20h and save a few precious grams, although strength really is my obvious first concern hence thinking 24h.

And I know they increased the strength of the 340 last year but will it still stand up to the job for me or shall I opt for the 400 on the rear? I think the set up should still yield a sub 1500g wheelset which would be ace but I'd love something closer to 1300g so would rather the 340.

How durable do you want these wheels to be? How hard are you on wheels- do you break spokes often? Rider weight is not the only factor.

A while back someone asked about soldering and tying improving wheel stiffness. I was re-reading Jobst's book last night and found that he did a test to determine that and found no improvement in either static lateral stiffness or tortional stiffness under load. Go read it for the details.

@leejdavies-I wouldn't recommend the radial lacing on the NDS of that build. I've done that before with a 340/T11 combo, and I had problems with the non drive side going slack. I think that a 2x NDS would be far more practical. For the front wheel, a radial build would be just fine. Keep in mind that front wheels are usually much stiffer than rears because they have even relative tensions, where as rear wheels have a significant tension offset. For the hole count, you won't notice any difference between 20h and 24h. On the rear though I think you should overbuild a tad and go with a 28 hole, at least.

A customer has asked me to build him a wheel using his parts O.K I said. I recieved the 20H Alpha 240 rim and 20H hub. What he did not tell me the hub is a brontrager affair drilled for paired spokes.

So I have a 20H rim with equidistant drilling and a paired spoke hub. Radial lacing heads out i what has been done before with this hub so that what I will again. How do I calculate the lengths for this one. It must be different to a normal radial wheel.

When I look at these figures it suggests that the 20:8, 18-9, and 18-10 are excellent for lateral stiffness, as is the 16-8 Significantly these results show that the traditional arrangements/builds, 12-12, 14-14, and 16-16, are at the bottom of the list for effective Lateral Stiffness ...The 16-12 arrangement is well down the list, although it is equal to a 36H 18-18 arrangement (less 8 spokes) …

I will have a look at a formula for effective Torsional stiffness … Effective Torque Control

Hi eric, the NDS ratio is 46% for the 18-18, whereas the 18-12 is 69% ... that's a 23% improvement. Absolutely, if spoke tension plays no part at all, then you are absolutely correct, but maybe the testing method used was not completely correct ... maybe ...

A thing to remember though is that an assembled spoked wheels rim has been tensioned like a leaf spring, or torsion bar, on a car, but in a circular manner ... which is even stronger. The rim has been pre-tensioned and pre-stressed, and with more pre-tensioning and pre-stressing (ie more spoke tension) it will become more resistant to the same lateral/radial forces that will act on it (and even torque effects) ... sound reasonable

Isn't it interesting that we do not hear of many (or any) issues with Campagolo's 14:7 triplet, 21H rim? With 21 spokes it appears to be stronger than the current 16:8 24H rim arrangement ... 3 spokes less It appears to be the relationship between the pre-tensioned rim, spoke placement, and even DS/NDS spoke tensions ... do you have any ideas re 14:7 triplet, 21H rim

Last edited by KLabs on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Isn't it interesting that we do not hear of many issues with Campagolo's 14:7 triplet, 21H rim? With 21 spokes it appears to be stronger than the current 16:8 24H rim arrangement ... 3 spokes less It appears to be the relationship between the pre-tensioned rim, spoke placement, and even DS/NDS spoke tensions ... do you have any ideas re 14:7 triplet, 21H rim

I'm gonna say they have optimized the hub geometries for 14:7 triplet, Some triplet hubs that I see are just "regular" hubs with a 16:8 drilling

I'm gonna say they have optimized the hub geometries for 14:7 triplet, Some triplet hubs that I see are just "regular" hubs with a 16:8 drilling

Hi verycreativeusername, absolutely, especially as only 21 spokes are used, and would most likely mean that the DS bracing angle has been increased, ie. better than 3.7' or the FTF spacing has been optimized (about 57mm).

Klabs that maths makes no sense to me, the way you have worked it out is nonsense. I am sorry to be blunt and possibly rude. You have just invented that formula but not dervied it from first principles. Those papers I linked give some of the maths invovled in working ot lateral stiffness is complicated and computor models are needed. I say this and I used to be Physics and Maths teacher so my maths backgoround is strong and this something that would stretch my Maths skills to the limit and beyond and for that I will not bother to even try to work it all out.

Tension blance however does not effect wheel stiffness as Eric pointed out! That has been estabilshed many times (notice how it is not refered to in the paper only material properties of spoke and rim and bracing angles are concidered becase that is all that effects it) and yet you still cling to the idea.

What you have done is invented a ranking system for lateral stiffness which to me is meaningless and there are flaws in it.

The answers you seek may be found by posting on Physics Forums. There are alot of very competant folk on there with Maths skills way beyond mine and yours (no offense intended) who could possibly help more with a matematical treatment of wheel stiffness.

I have been very blunt I am sorry if this offends.

However with 11 speed hubs (campagnolo have had them for a while now) shallow rims still work - I build them and have zero isses. Deeper rims ( for stiffness) and off centre rims (for tension balance and improving that never hurts) obviously help but I don't need maths to demsotrate that.

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