NOTE: Be prepared for public scrutiny and criticism of your posts & threads, it comes part and parcel with posting on public message boards.

If you don't want people disagreeing with, or commenting on, your plans, the ePlaya isn't the place to post them.

As for telling everyone who disagrees with you to

Saguache wrote:Have a cup of shut-the-fuck-up

you might want to listen to what people are saying, without the chip. Just because they disagree with you with all the subtly of the ePlaya doesn't mean they're just shooting your idea down for fun. There are accidents on 447 every single Burn, vehicles on the side of the road with debris strewn about. Did you ever think that maybe they're trying to help you (a) avoid causing one of those, or (b) avoid being one of those.

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Everyone needs at least 1.5 gallons of water per day they are on the playa. A gallon of water weighs 8.35 lbs so that is a weight premium of 12.5 lbs of water per day. So for 7 days it would be 87.5 lbs alone... plus camping gear, clothing, food, etc.

Ten people is the target, 20 days to bike to the burn, 1.5 gallons per person, that's 300 gallons and can more than easily be carried by a truck or van in a truck bed water tank. Notice I did mention SAG in the original post. I would prefer to make this as self supported as possible however, so the water truck would drive ahead and meet cyclists at pre-determined locations. Nevada can be a pain in the butt to cross on bike otherwise because water stops are so infrequent and often even when they are marked on the map they may not actually have water.

stretch80 wrote:The highway 447 does not have a paved shoulder. If two larger vehicles meet on the highway they barely stay on the pavement.

See my response to Elliot, not to mention if you can't keep your vehicle on the pavement you probably shouldnt be driving. The layout of the road is spacious left from right its 26' leaving each lane 13' of clearance. Most vehicles on the road aren't more than 10' wide. Like the law says, if you're uncomfortable passing slow down.

stretch80 wrote:Not to mention the altitude, and heat. ...

I live about 3000' higher than most of the high passes in this state. Getting there is a more or less down hill ride. I'm looking into the train or the bus to get most of the way home at this point just so it dosen't become a month long trip. The heat is more often than not handled with loose fitting clothing and a good hat, you know, sort of like how you deal with it on the playa.

stretch80 wrote:Tell us your well thought out ideas, and you will probably get a bit of support.

Since you have indicated this is your first year, we (those of use who have attended for years) have some skepticism on your ability to safely pull this off.

I indicated that this was my first year biking to the burn, not my first year biking in NV nor my first year going to a burn. Last year I had a ticket and was also dealing with a fresh medical disorder that precluded me from driving anywhere. This year its far less fresh, I still can't drive. Sooooo, I'm back to biking everywhere. There is currently 4' of snow on the ground and its below zero and I'm about ready to get on my bike to get some food from the store miles away. I don't just believe that biking can be a full time and adiquate replacement for driving a car, I know it is (and yes I'm dressing for it cause its chilly).

I don't have have it all sorted out yet, but I know that it can be sorted and turn the Burn into a destination that few other cyclists will achieve. Sort of like adding icing to the cake in my opinion, anyone can get there in an RV. I am looking for like minded people who are interested in figuring it out for similar reasons. Not people who are going to instantaneously say something to the effect of "biking to the burn is impossible, there are cars on the road."

You are not thinking thia out very well.first of all a lot tof those vehicles going to be buses and campers. their brakes are already pushed to the max. You really are only listening to Anti_ Bike. What we are saying is about being Anti Stupid!

If the First person responds to you "biking to the burn is impossible, there are cars on the road." Then you need to find some one smarter.

.......................................................................................Oh yeah, this year I was totally twerping out at the fence. ~Lonesombri

And so it begins again. The the Solar Flower dude, the proud-to-be-a-darktard dude, the amazing-people-should-pay-for-my-trip dude, and now... the cycle-to-the-burn-dude.

Every year, one more person with the grand idea to bike to the burn. The idea usually involves someone in a motor vehicle hauling in all the necessary "self-reliance" stuff so that the cyclist can be free to pedal his or her way to the burn. It's like a safari where "bwana" has his camp hauled around by the natives. Some cyclists even wonder if they can get early entry like they deserve it.

If memory serves, I don't think I've ever read any success stories. Maybe the people who have tried it have never come back alive? Maybe they just give up? Usually a thread like this dies after a page or two of hearing replies like "YER GONNA DIE IN THE HEAT!! This ain't Seattle!", "Do you really trust that give-a-yard-to-the-cycling-'tard rule is going to save your ass from 8-hour-drive bleary-eyed burners trying to pass you in RVs hauling overloaded trailers--at night?" "Are you sure your bike park-baby-stroller-wagon is really equipped to haul in 90 pounds worth of water, plus food, a tent, shelter, etc.--for some-odd hundreds of miles?" "Hey man, your dried-out corpse will be considered MOOP." "You've never even attended once? Why don't you see what it's like first before risking your LIFE, and the safety of those around you, on this inexperienced (and foolish) endeavor?" "Good luck! If you make it alive I'll share a beer with you."

And then comes the whining that ePlayans aren't supportive of other peoples' ideas. "I didn't come here for advice. I came here for AGREEMENT and PRAISE." Then the refutations. "I KNOW it's possible because my iPhone Maps app says it is possible! The app of His Jobsness (peace be upon him) has shown a divine path through these here hills, which means it is only 485.7 miles to get to the burn!" "Oh I've done tours before... where? Oh, in San Francisco. It shouldn't be much of a jump doing that to Burning Man."

Rinse.

Repeat.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Seeing as how I've ridden Jungo road before, I would suggest you go out there sometime before the burn and try to ride that road on your bike. It's not going to be easy on you or your bike/trailer/kidneys. I'm not saying it's impossible but it's likely MUCH harder that you think.

For all we know, you could be Lance Armstrong and could ride a bike all over the world, or, you could just be a regular guy that thinks he could ride a bike all over the world. Either way, we don't want run over you in our RV/car/truck when the guy in the other lane falls asleep and drifts over into our lane and we have to swerve to avoid a head on.

Personally, I don't see how you could bring enough water on your bike with you so you would have to have a vehicle to carry all that stuff. You might as well just bring a truck with all your stuff including your bike and then ride around the Playa.

There are a few touchy subjects here on ePlaya and you found one of them. Most everyone means well, it's just the execution here is a bit harsh.

graidawg wrote:so you post a thread suggesting biking to the burn. immediately expeirenced burners say not to, and why not. Your response is to argue and call them cagers or worse. Let me say, these guys have seen the results of stupidity on 447 and entrance to the playa as have I, so they aren't being anti-bike they are being pro safety,now you could of said actually "i dont plan to ride on the main highway there is a parallel path so i wont be getting in your way" or you could have mentioned you would see if you could get someone with a car to follow you or any number of better response than

Saguache wrote:Have a cup of shut-the-fuck-up

this is not the way to get people to help you acheive your desire especially as you have already pointed out you cannot do it yourself ( you need someone to bring water etc)

I could have said a lot, but what I did say was that I was searching for like minded people who might want to ride with me to the Burn. I made no mention of 447, I made no mention of any route, and in fact I solicited no suggestions concerning route preferring to work this out in the logistical planning stage. The assumption was made that I'd obviously use 447, which was never the case.

Listen, I've got about 40,000 miles of self-supported touring under my belt including two crossings of Nevada. I've been to a burn or two and I know what the traffic can be like before and after. I can get people, friends to bring the water I need as well the water others would need. All of this I did or can do without involvement in ePlaya, what I cannot do and what I intended to do was look for like minded people who would be interested in doing it with me (see original post). Yet, for some darn reason, all I'm getting is slack from those hell bent on pointing out how my mode of travel is anything less but optimal for their planned ingress based on assumptions and stereotypes they've developed completely from discussions that have occurred before this one.

And then you guys have the nerve to assume I'm oblivious to the danger cycling posses to the rider. Or call me a criminal because I'd like to find others who enjoy cycling as much as I do. Or worse lay the blame for collisions between cyclists and autos clearly at my feet as if I'm some sort of alter. Fuck that!

So the original query remains open, and should you folks start looking at ways to make things happen for cyclists at or getting to the burn then great I'll start listening. Until then each attempt to marginalize me and other cyclists because we're cyclists will be met with equal and justified scorn.

-- Inspire or empower your neighbor, the rest is a waste of precious time

TT120 wrote:Seeing as how I've ridden Jungo road before, I would suggest you go out there sometime before the burn and try to ride that road on your bike. It's not going to be easy on you or your bike/trailer/kidneys. I'm not saying it's impossible but it's likely MUCH harder that you think.

Thanks TT120, I have not. Can you be any more specific? Would suspension or fat tires help? Is it just bumps, gravel, sand? I've have extensive long-distance touring under my belt, but in a situation like this it can improve a trip for sure if you're more prepared for what's coming.

TT120 wrote:There are a few touchy subjects on ePlaya and you found one of them. Most everyone means well, it's just the execution here is a bit harsh.

Yea, starting to get that now. I realize that tone is difficult to convey here and in email. Know that when I show up at the date and roll in the dust I'll happily camp next to any of you. I was hoping for two things. First, a bunch of cycle nuts that think they'd like to do this too (Nevada is very lonely to cross on your own). And second, acceptance that there are people with similarly intense interests to their own which may be different then their own. Crazy I know, I might slow someone down on their way to the Burn.

-- Inspire or empower your neighbor, the rest is a waste of precious time

TT120 wrote:Seeing as how I've ridden Jungo road before, I would suggest you go out there sometime before the burn and try to ride that road on your bike. It's not going to be easy on you or your bike/trailer/kidneys. I'm not saying it's impossible but it's likely MUCH harder that you think.

Thanks TT120, I have not. Can you be any more specific? Would suspension or fat tires help? Is it just bumps, gravel, sand? I've have extensive long-distance touring under my belt, but in a situation like this it can improve a trip for sure if you're more prepared for what's coming.

There will be lots of bumps, gravel, and deep sand to deal with. Large rocks, ruts, and drop-offs. Also, there will be washouts that you will have to carry your bike and gear across. Fat tires will help as will suspension but you're still gonna get beat up. There are miles long sections with serious washboards that will beat the shit out of you and the bike. Not as bad as the Death Valley Washboards but close. One thing about Jungo, there is NOTHING out there. No help, no phone, no water, nothing. It's not a road you want to get stranded on. I Don't know where you plan on picking up Jungo but it's a heluva long ride. There might be more people out there during the burn but don't count on it.

So, you've made it to the burn from Jungo Rd. and it's time to party for a week. After the week is over, are you going to ride back out? You'll be wiped out, tired, hungover. I wouldn't want to take on Jungo Rd. like that.....LOL

Saguache wrote:

TT120 wrote:There are a few touchy subjects on ePlaya and you found one of them. Most everyone means well, it's just the execution here is a bit harsh.

Yea, starting to get that now. I realize that tone is difficult to convey here and in email. Know that when I show up at the date and roll in the dust I'll happily camp next to any of you. I was hoping for two things. First, a bunch of cycle nuts that think they'd like to do this too (Nevada is very lonely to cross on your own). And second, acceptance that there are people with similarly intense interests to their own which may be different then their own. Crazy I know, I might slow someone down on their way to the Burn.

447 would be really really dangerous for a cyclist during burn time. As you know, the cagers already don't like us on "their" roads and there really just isn't enough room on that road for everyone. There are likely several people that would like to group up with you and cycle to the burn and honestly, that would be the only way "I" would try Jungo, with a group of people.

Don't let the seemingly harsh tone here on ePlaya bother you, most of the people here are nice.

I well join you and have your back. If they hit you I go first. as for all you sniveling dogooders out there, I have a simple solution. SLO THE FUCK DOWN ! when you see us. Whats the big rush. maybe you could leave earlier so a wee little thing like somebody else on the planet wont ruin your life.

BBadger wrote:Every year, one more person with the grand idea to bike to the burn. The idea usually involves someone in a motor vehicle hauling in all the necessary "self-reliance" stuff so that the cyclist can be free to pedal his or her way to the burn. It's like a safari where "bwana" has his camp hauled around by the natives. Some cyclists even wonder if they can get early entry like they deserve it.

Ok so you've heard proposals to ride to the burn before BBadger? Before you judge me, how the fuck are you getting to the burn? I'm not riding to be more ecologically sensitive than thow. In fact, if I could still drive my diesel Vanagon guess how I would get there? Having a SAG vehicle to carry things you can't carry on a bike isn't unheard of. If its just me either I'll send a couple of cubies ahead or I'll ride with one that will allow me to melt ice for water (the latter being the prefered choice).

Should I be lucky enough to find others to travel with me, then yes, there's going to need to be a SAG. I can arrange for the SAG with adiquate water and I've even been looking into shared housing something better than a patch of tents.

BBadger wrote:If memory serves, I don't think I've ever read any success stories. Maybe the people who have tried it have never come back alive? Maybe they just give up?/

Maybe you haven't looked as closely as those who have been interested in this mode of travel. There are actually a number of accounts of people riding to, enjoying, and then often riding home from the Burn.

Now admitiedly there are relativily few people year-over-year that chose to make this happen. Even fewer of them make this choice and then chose to write a blog about their experiences. CGOAB is jam packed with mentions of "burning man" although more than a few people chose to cover the last leg by hitching a ride. And hey, maybe that makes sense, but with an organized tour with a SAG its completely possible. Regardless, I know it can be done because I've met people who have done it.

BBadger wrote:Usually a thread like this dies after a page or two of hearing replies like "YER GONNA DIE IN THE HEAT!! This ain't Seattle!", "Do you really trust that give-a-yard-to-the-cycling-'tard rule is going to save your ass from 8-hour-drive bleary-eyed burners trying to pass you in RVs hauling overloaded trailers--at night?" "Are you sure your bike park-baby-stroller-wagon is really equipped to haul in 90 pounds worth of water, plus food, a tent, shelter, etc.--for some-odd hundreds of miles?" "Hey man, your dried-out corpse will be considered MOOP."

Yea heard that, and while mildly funny I don't live in Seattle and I've toured across the Great Basin in the summer. So while it generally is hot, I know how to come prepared for it and am more often than not accustomed to the heat and elevation long before setting out on something like this.

BBadger wrote:"You've never even attended once? Why don't you see what it's like first before risking your LIFE, and the safety of those around you, on this inexperienced (and foolish) endeavor?"

Got it, already been and so I have some clue what to expect. Coming in from the east on a day before the Burn opens by way of a less traveled road (including the possibility of jeep roads) reduces the risk cosiderably. And I've heard those that would try to convince me that this is such and endevour, I just don't agree and have the skills and experience.

BBadger wrote:"Good luck! If you make it alive I'll share a beer with you."

Thanks, especially if I'm on my own I will take you up on that.

-- Inspire or empower your neighbor, the rest is a waste of precious time

Fuck you JS! Notice something, all those arms and legs flying somewhere are attached to people. This makes you an incredibly insensitive asshat bar none. Right up with there with the world's top trolls. And I'll take a moment to preempt your bullshit response, nothing you can say can make up for this. You've gone and done it. Seriously, what they fuck do you think you're trying to provoke with this?

Karma man, that's what you have to worry about.

-- Inspire or empower your neighbor, the rest is a waste of precious time

Fuck you JS! Notice something, all those arms and legs flying somewhere are attached to people. This makes you an incredibly insensitive asshat bar none. Right up with there with the world's top trolls. And I'll take a moment to preempt your bullshit response, nothing you can say can make up for this. You've gone and done it. Seriously, what they fuck do you think you're trying to provoke with this?

Karma man, that's what you have to worry about.

Most of the time, when someone in this forum says something that upsets you -- ignore them. They will eventually get bored and find someone else to bother.

Love Rice

Roach: "I feel like in this day and age, every girl should know how to build a flamethrower."

SLACKER wrote:I well join you and have your back. If they hit you I go first. as for all you sniveling dogooders out there, I have a simple solution. SLO THE FUCK DOWN ! when you see us. Whats the big rush. maybe you could leave earlier so a wee little thing like somebody else on the planet wont ruin your life.

Um. There are 50,000+ tickets being sold, and most of them will never read this forum.All of us who do, could drive in an utterly exemplary fashion. Wouldn't make a dent in the dangerous driving out there.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Everyone needs at least 1.5 gallons of water per day they are on the playa. A gallon of water weighs 8.35 lbs so that is a weight premium of 12.5 lbs of water per day. So for 7 days it would be 87.5 lbs alone... plus camping gear, clothing, food, etc.

Ten people is the target, 20 days to bike to the burn, 1.5 gallons per person, that's 300 gallons and can more than easily be carried by a truck or van in a truck bed water tank. Notice I did mention SAG in the original post. I would prefer to make this as self supported as possible however, so the water truck would drive ahead and meet cyclists at pre-determined locations. Nevada can be a pain in the butt to cross on bike otherwise because water stops are so infrequent and often even when they are marked on the map they may not actually have water.

stretch80 wrote:The highway 447 does not have a paved shoulder. If two larger vehicles meet on the highway they barely stay on the pavement.

See my response to Elliot, not to mention if you can't keep your vehicle on the pavement you probably shouldnt be driving. The layout of the road is spacious left from right its 26' leaving each lane 13' of clearance. Most vehicles on the road aren't more than 10' wide. Like the law says, if you're uncomfortable passing slow down.

stretch80 wrote:Not to mention the altitude, and heat. ...

I live about 3000' higher than most of the high passes in this state. Getting there is a more or less down hill ride. I'm looking into the train or the bus to get most of the way home at this point just so it dosen't become a month long trip. The heat is more often than not handled with loose fitting clothing and a good hat, you know, sort of like how you deal with it on the playa.

stretch80 wrote:Tell us your well thought out ideas, and you will probably get a bit of support.

Since you have indicated this is your first year, we (those of use who have attended for years) have some skepticism on your ability to safely pull this off.

I indicated that this was my first year biking to the burn, not my first year biking in NV nor my first year going to a burn. Last year I had a ticket and was also dealing with a fresh medical disorder that precluded me from driving anywhere. This year its far less fresh, I still can't drive. Sooooo, I'm back to biking everywhere. There is currently 4' of snow on the ground and its below zero and I'm about ready to get on my bike to get some food from the store miles away. I don't just believe that biking can be a full time and adiquate replacement for driving a car, I know it is (and yes I'm dressing for it cause its chilly).

I don't have have it all sorted out yet, but I know that it can be sorted and turn the Burn into a destination that few other cyclists will achieve. Sort of like adding icing to the cake in my opinion, anyone can get there in an RV. I am looking for like minded people who are interested in figuring it out for similar reasons. Not people who are going to instantaneously say something to the effect of "biking to the burn is impossible, there are cars on the road."

Alright, your initial post did not give the indication that you have a plan... We have seen many other "I'm biking to Burning Man" posts, the majority of them devolved into a Bike vs Car argument with name calling. I hope this thread will actually be useful to people who would like to bike and perhaps - provide those darn car drivers with information that proves their plan is not a poorly thought out idea. (I hope I have not been a complete nay-sayer, it is possible to do - but needs a lot more planning than a car trip would)... what the heck is "SAG"??

Having a support vehicle deal with most of the large/heavy stuff should work. I just need to say that most people driving on that highway will probably be unaware of the Nevada laws regarding bicycles. So, if you are prepared to deal with that - then fine. I do not have a problem. 80% of the vehicles on that road will be driven by people who normally drive smaller vehicles or who normally do not drive. SO, do not assume anything - aka: keep safe.

FYI: Unless you have an early entry pass, do not expect to be let into Burning Man before the gates officially open. Anyone who gets caught in the closure are will be given a Federal tresspassing ticket. So, keep that in mind. (Just trying to make sure you do not get any grief when you arrive.) Oh, and riding a bike on Gate road - at night - is a poor plan. I have seen many near misses. Riding right outside the road (for its entire length) will get you noticed, but probably not get your grief.

Good luck. I am curious as to how this works out for you...

Love Rice

Roach: "I feel like in this day and age, every girl should know how to build a flamethrower."

Fuck you JS! Notice something, all those arms and legs flying somewhere are attached to people. This makes you an incredibly insensitive asshat bar none.

Did you think about what that gif points out - that even in optimum conditions (daylight; smooth, flat, streets; large group...) accidents can happen - did that driver do it on purpose, or did he lose control of his brakes, or have a heart-attack, or fall asleep...

You and your entire group may be perfect cyclists, being super careful, but all it takes is one sleepy hippie driving an overloaded, unfamiliar bus with a trailer fishtailing behind it to cause incredible damage. Sadly, the road will have way more than one vehicle fitting that description - and most of the posters here aren't going to be that driver. Even the ones loudly saying "no" are way more cautious than a lot of vehicles I've seen out there, and in a decade there hasn't been a single year that I haven't passed at least one accident on 447. You're probably safe, traffic-wise, on Jungo, but's that's mostly because most drivers wouldn't take that road at all.

While I know that people have biked it before, and will again, that doesn't mean it's ever going to be a safe thing to do, or something people on here will encourage. While none of that may stop you, think for a second that people may be giving you playa tough-love, and pointing out that just because you're in great shape for it, the drivers of the vehicles around you may not be.

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

BBadger wrote:Every year, one more person with the grand idea to bike to the burn. The idea usually involves someone in a motor vehicle hauling in all the necessary "self-reliance" stuff so that the cyclist can be free to pedal his or her way to the burn. It's like a safari where "bwana" has his camp hauled around by the natives. Some cyclists even wonder if they can get early entry like they deserve it.

Ok so you've heard proposals to ride to the burn before BBadger? Before you judge me, how the fuck are you getting to the burn? I'm not riding to be more ecologically sensitive than thow. In fact, if I could still drive my diesel Vanagon guess how I would get there? Having a SAG vehicle to carry things you can't carry on a bike isn't unheard of. If its just me either I'll send a couple of cubies ahead or I'll ride with one that will allow me to melt ice for water (the latter being the prefered choice).

It seems you're seeing what you want to see in these posts. Reading comprehension please. This is not accusing you of being "more ecologically sensitive than thou", but rather these "tours" are usually conceived as the cyclist parading on into the burn while someone in a motor vehicle hauls in most of the real gear. Oh wait, that's almost exactly what I wrote above.

Maybe you haven't looked as closely as those who have been interested in this mode of travel. There are actually a number of accounts of people riding to, enjoying, and then often riding home from the Burn.

No, I don't follow cyclist blogs. Actually, I don't follow any blogs. Really, that was in reference to all these cyclist threads that pop up on here, where the OPs fade away after people don't embrace their idea like hippies diggin' a vibe. It's like a broken record, though I must give you credit that you've one-upped the defensiveness.

Yea heard that, and while mildly funny I don't live in Seattle and I've toured across the Great Basin in the summer. So while it generally is hot, I know how to come prepared for it and am more often than not accustomed to the heat and elevation long before setting out on something like this.

Yeah yeah, take it literally. And congrats, you've toured the basin. I'm sure you were a real peach for company. Real CHILL.

SLACKER wrote:I well join you and have your back. If they hit you I go first. as for all you sniveling dogooders out there, I have a simple solution. SLO THE FUCK DOWN ! when you see us. Whats the big rush. maybe you could leave earlier so a wee little thing like somebody else on the planet wont ruin your life.

See, it's quotes like that which don't endear cyclists to other drivers. Maybe if they end up hitting the both of you it won't be just because of speed. Just sayin'...

Eric wrote:Did you think about what that gif points out - that even in optimum conditions (daylight; smooth, flat, streets; large group...) accidents can happen - did that driver do it on purpose, or did he lose control of his brakes, or have a heart-attack, or fall asleep...

B-b-but they had the right of way!!

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

You mention that you've done a lot of touring, but is that road touring? Unpaved desert roads are pretty awful to ride on even with a mountain bike. Lots of deep sandy spots. You might want to try out a ride before.

I would strongly advise against it. As others have hinted at or said directly, there's no bike lane or easil navigable shoulder for much of the way (making a minor spill very dangerous for you as well as others). Further, the conditions are extreme, to say the least (harsh high altitude desert).

My recommendation, check with your doctor and find out what medication you'd need to make travek in a vehicle possible, then catch a rideshare. By all means bring your bike and pedal around out there as much as possible.

I'm giving this a nudge to Transportation. Though the original post briefly mentions an interest in finding other cyclists to camp with, the bulk of the post and subsequent conversation is a better fit there.

Since you mentioned coning in from the east maybe look at the various roads in northern Humbolt, Washoe county. Some really pretty country out there.Would be a hell of a lot more fun then Jungo road. Would be a mix of trail and highways.Glad to hear your not thinking about 447, 11 months out of the year you would be fine.2 weeks before, and 2 weeks after bikes scare the hell out of me.I have no desire to hurt anyone.

SLACKER wrote:I well join you and have your back. If they hit you I go first. as for all you sniveling dogooders out there, I have a simple solution. SLO THE FUCK DOWN ! when you see us. Whats the big rush. maybe you could leave earlier so a wee little thing like somebody else on the planet wont ruin your life.

you see, i said kill all of the hippies, did anyone listen to me...NOOOOOOOOOOOOO.