It seems to me that to other atheists this is a complete No-Brainer, but to theists, especially the ones I deal with everyday, it boggles the mind. It seems as if they have this idea that atheism( The lack of belief in a god) is responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in recent decades. From Hitler to Stalin to the ElevatorGate incident I have had theists on my ass pointing out that atheism is a morally corrupt worldview. Leaving aside the fact that Atheism in itself is not a worldview, atheism has absolutely no stake in morality. It has no creed, or moral tennets that we, as fellow non-believers, must follow in order to BE an atheist, or get some magical prize at the end of life.

Let me break apart my whole reasoning as to why Sexism in the Secular/Skeptical community, or any issue similar is not reflective of atheism or is not the fault of atheism. Besides not having a moral creed, atheism is really a simple title to use. There are no strict rules to call under that title. We have no forbidden food or even forbidden sexual positions. We have no tithes and we have no churches. Hell, you can still believe in Ghosts and woo-poo and still be an atheist. You can be straight, gay, transgender etc. You can be a gun loving republican, a peace loving socialist, a big government democratic or any options inbetween and still be an atheist. Because atheism only elaborates on one of the many aspects of you , you can have a wide variety of people in the atheism section.

This means, you can have sexists,racists, good people, murderers, con artists, etc in there as well. However, as none of you here need reminding, just because atheists can do bad things it doesn't mean that atheism is at fault. Nor does it prove anything about atheism if good deeds or bad ones are perpetrated by atheists.

It's one of the many good things about it. We can have a diverse group of people for whom we can discuss and debate and elaborate on very different topics,whether it be social or scientific, aspects of life, the universe, or God. When I hear about issues pertaining to atheism, as long as it is not dealing with the definition, I see no problem with other atheists behaving like dicks. I will reprimand them, not because they are giving atheism a bad name, but because they are being an awful human being.

It's with this mindset that ElevatorGate and other such incidents are viewed, by me, at a purely INDIVIDUAL level. If one person who happens to be an atheist does something bad, it's on the person, not atheism.
-Steven
Sorry, had to get this out, because I am frustrated with people asking me this. Now at least I can link them to something

(28-01-2013 09:16 AM)Atothetheist Wrote: It seems to me that to other atheists this is a complete No-Brainer, but to theists, especially the ones I deal with everyday, it boggles the mind. It seems as if they have this idea that atheism( The lack of belief in a god) is responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in recent decades. From Hitler to Stalin to the ElevatorGate incident I have had theists on my ass pointing out that atheism is a morally corrupt worldview. Leaving aside the fact that Atheism in itself is not a worldview, atheism has absolutely no stake in morality. It has no creed, or moral tennets that we, as fellow non-believers, must follow in order to BE an atheist, or get some magical prize at the end of life.

Let me break apart my whole reasoning as to why Sexism in the Secular/Skeptical community, or any issue similar is not reflective of atheism or is not the fault of atheism. Besides not having a moral creed, atheism is really a simple title to use. There are no strict rules to call under that title. We have no forbidden food or even sexual positions. We have no tithes and we have no churches. Hell, you can still believe in Ghosts and woo-poo and still be an atheist. You can be straight, gay, transgender etc. You can be a gun loving republican, a peace loving socialist, a big government democratic or any options inbetween and still be an atheist. Because atheism only elaborates on one of the many aspects of you , you can have a wide variety of people in the atheism section.

This means, you can have sexists,racists, good people, murderers, con artists, etc in there as well. However, as none of you here need reminding, just because atheists can do bad things it doesn't mean that atheism is at fault. Nor does it prove anything about atheism if good deeds or bad ones are perpetrated by atheists.

It's one of the many good things about it. We can have a diverse group of people for whom we can discuss and debate and elaborate on very different, whether it be social or scientific, aspects of life, the universe, or God. When I hear about issues pertaining to atheism, as long as it is not dealing with the definition, I see no problem with other atheists behaving like dicks. I will reprimand them, not because they are giving atheism a bad name, but because they are being an awful human being.

It's with this mindset that ElevatorGate and other such incidents are viewed, by be, at a purely INDIVIDUAL level. If one person who happens to be an atheist does something bad, it's on the person, not atheism.
-Steven
Sorry, had to get this out, because I am frustrated with people asking me this. Now at least I can link them to something :$

When you're older, we'll tell you about the sexual positions.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

(28-01-2013 09:16 AM)Atothetheist Wrote: It seems to me that to other atheists this is a complete No-Brainer, but to theists, especially the ones I deal with everyday, it boggles the mind. It seems as if they have this idea that atheism( The lack of belief in a god) is responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in recent decades. From Hitler to Stalin to the ElevatorGate incident I have had theists on my ass pointing out that atheism is a morally corrupt worldview. Leaving aside the fact that Atheism in itself is not a worldview, atheism has absolutely no stake in morality. It has no creed, or moral tennets that we, as fellow non-believers, must follow in order to BE an atheist, or get some magical prize at the end of life.

Let me break apart my whole reasoning as to why Sexism in the Secular/Skeptical community, or any issue similar is not reflective of atheism or is not the fault of atheism. Besides not having a moral creed, atheism is really a simple title to use. There are no strict rules to call under that title. We have no forbidden food or even sexual positions. We have no tithes and we have no churches. Hell, you can still believe in Ghosts and woo-poo and still be an atheist. You can be straight, gay, transgender etc. You can be a gun loving republican, a peace loving socialist, a big government democratic or any options inbetween and still be an atheist. Because atheism only elaborates on one of the many aspects of you , you can have a wide variety of people in the atheism section.

This means, you can have sexists,racists, good people, murderers, con artists, etc in there as well. However, as none of you here need reminding, just because atheists can do bad things it doesn't mean that atheism is at fault. Nor does it prove anything about atheism if good deeds or bad ones are perpetrated by atheists.

It's one of the many good things about it. We can have a diverse group of people for whom we can discuss and debate and elaborate on very different, whether it be social or scientific, aspects of life, the universe, or God. When I hear about issues pertaining to atheism, as long as it is not dealing with the definition, I see no problem with other atheists behaving like dicks. I will reprimand them, not because they are giving atheism a bad name, but because they are being an awful human being.

It's with this mindset that ElevatorGate and other such incidents are viewed, by be, at a purely INDIVIDUAL level. If one person who happens to be an atheist does something bad, it's on the person, not atheism.
-Steven
Sorry, had to get this out, because I am frustrated with people asking me this. Now at least I can link them to something :$

(28-01-2013 09:16 AM)Atothetheist Wrote: It seems to me that to other atheists this is a complete No-Brainer, but to theists, especially the ones I deal with everyday, it boggles the mind. It seems as if they have this idea that atheism( The lack of belief in a god) is responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in recent decades. From Hitler to Stalin to the ElevatorGate incident I have had theists on my ass pointing out that atheism is a morally corrupt worldview. Leaving aside the fact that Atheism in itself is not a worldview, atheism has absolutely no stake in morality. It has no creed, or moral tennets that we, as fellow non-believers, must follow in order to BE an atheist, or get some magical prize at the end of life.

Let me break apart my whole reasoning as to why Sexism in the Secular/Skeptical community, or any issue similar is not reflective of atheism or is not the fault of atheism. Besides not having a moral creed, atheism is really a simple title to use. There are no strict rules to call under that title. We have no forbidden food or even forbidden sexual positions. We have no tithes and we have no churches. Hell, you can still believe in Ghosts and woo-poo and still be an atheist. You can be straight, gay, transgender etc. You can be a gun loving republican, a peace loving socialist, a big government democratic or any options inbetween and still be an atheist. Because atheism only elaborates on one of the many aspects of you , you can have a wide variety of people in the atheism section.

This means, you can have sexists,racists, good people, murderers, con artists, etc in there as well. However, as none of you here need reminding, just because atheists can do bad things it doesn't mean that atheism is at fault. Nor does it prove anything about atheism if good deeds or bad ones are perpetrated by atheists.

It's one of the many good things about it. We can have a diverse group of people for whom we can discuss and debate and elaborate on very different topics,whether it be social or scientific, aspects of life, the universe, or God. When I hear about issues pertaining to atheism, as long as it is not dealing with the definition, I see no problem with other atheists behaving like dicks. I will reprimand them, not because they are giving atheism a bad name, but because they are being an awful human being.

It's with this mindset that ElevatorGate and other such incidents are viewed, by me, at a purely INDIVIDUAL level. If one person who happens to be an atheist does something bad, it's on the person, not atheism.
-Steven
Sorry, had to get this out, because I am frustrated with people asking me this. Now at least I can link them to something

This!

I want to use your explanation when I encounter someone who has me all figured out as an atheist.

(28-01-2013 09:16 AM)Atothetheist Wrote: It seems to me that to other atheists this is a complete No-Brainer, but to theists, especially the ones I deal with everyday, it boggles the mind. It seems as if they have this idea that atheism( The lack of belief in a god) is responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in recent decades. From Hitler to Stalin to the ElevatorGate incident I have had theists on my ass pointing out that atheism is a morally corrupt worldview. Leaving aside the fact that Atheism in itself is not a worldview, atheism has absolutely no stake in morality. It has no creed, or moral tennets that we, as fellow non-believers, must follow in order to BE an atheist, or get some magical prize at the end of life.

Let me break apart my whole reasoning as to why Sexism in the Secular/Skeptical community, or any issue similar is not reflective of atheism or is not the fault of atheism. Besides not having a moral creed, atheism is really a simple title to use. There are no strict rules to call under that title. We have no forbidden food or even forbidden sexual positions. We have no tithes and we have no churches. Hell, you can still believe in Ghosts and woo-poo and still be an atheist. You can be straight, gay, transgender etc. You can be a gun loving republican, a peace loving socialist, a big government democratic or any options inbetween and still be an atheist. Because atheism only elaborates on one of the many aspects of you , you can have a wide variety of people in the atheism section.

This means, you can have sexists,racists, good people, murderers, con artists, etc in there as well. However, as none of you here need reminding, just because atheists can do bad things it doesn't mean that atheism is at fault. Nor does it prove anything about atheism if good deeds or bad ones are perpetrated by atheists.

It's one of the many good things about it. We can have a diverse group of people for whom we can discuss and debate and elaborate on very different topics,whether it be social or scientific, aspects of life, the universe, or God. When I hear about issues pertaining to atheism, as long as it is not dealing with the definition, I see no problem with other atheists behaving like dicks. I will reprimand them, not because they are giving atheism a bad name, but because they are being an awful human being.

It's with this mindset that ElevatorGate and other such incidents are viewed, by me, at a purely INDIVIDUAL level. If one person who happens to be an atheist does something bad, it's on the person, not atheism.
-Steven
Sorry, had to get this out, because I am frustrated with people asking me this. Now at least I can link them to something

There's half a truth at work here. The atrocities of a Stalin or a Pol Pot (forget Catholic Hitler), or even the more-common-much-less-worse-but-still-bad discriminations and sexism such as was pointed at in ElevatorGate, are not at all fundamental to atheism. Discard all of them (please!) and philosophically atheism will still be atheism, no alteration necessary, not even a need to put some mental disclaimer of no-longer-applicable next to a holy text's passage on how to treat your wives.

And then there's the other half of the truth. That these things ARE part of the legacy, not of atheism, but of atheists. In some cases, part of the present culture. When one individual does it, yes, that's on the individual. But when dozens, hundreds, thousands, a third or two-thirds of all atheists out there, when they do it, or just remain silent about it, is it still just about the individual? And if not, at what point does it stop being about the individual and start being about the movement? Can we quantify where that line lies? Do we have some responsibility to seek improvement for purely pragmatic reasons of recruitment or image? Or maybe for more idealistic reasons, not because we're atheists, but because some of us are also humanists?

There's also a dangerous potential argument lurking here, one that is utilitarian at its core. It's similar to the "atheists lack morals" argument, but unlike that it has a certain validity. IF it should prove that membership in a religion produces nicer, more ethical, more socially-adjusted, and all-around better people than atheism does, then is that not a moral argument against atheism? Not necessarily against the truth or falsehood of whether gods exist, but for the notion that disecting whether their existence is factually true in the first place should take back seat to the benefits that belief in gods and their moral codes might produce?

We can ignore this argument, for now, because the conditional's antecedent is not met. Religion ISN'T producing better people. Stalin and Pol Pot were extreme outliers, more the result of their environments than of atheism. Counterbalance all of this against the hundreds, thousands, millions of evils, large and small, committed in religion's name. How many Christians (just to single out one religion) abuse their families, say, or actively support or encourage things like the death penalty for homosexuality in Uganda, all while grounding that in some biblical passage? But religion in the West is also moderating itself, focusing more on good works and kindness and less and less engaging in the atrocities of the past century. (Those are still present, in great numbers, but also decreasing numbers.) If we want it to remain true that atheism produces better people, then there is a need to clean house. Though not explicitly, deductively required by atheism, there is an inductively sound argument for responsibility in atheism: If we don't believe gods exist to improve the world, then we're the ones stuck doing it.

Again, to emphasize, NONE of this represents a valid criticism of atheism itself, as a belief stance or absence thereof. But criticism of atheists as a group -- especially if it's a valid concern about the behaviors of a large percentage of atheists, such as that the current atheist movement could be more welcoming to women and minorities -- should be of concern to atheists, even if it is not a direct attack on atheism.

Of course, all of that could be said about religion, too, and for the large part there is much, much more grist to be found for that particular mill amongst the faithful.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail

The thing is Reltzik that it doesn't matter what a person does in this context, it matters why they do it.

There have been plenty of atrocities committed in the name of any particular religion (except Pastafarianism, we're a peace loving people), but how many atrocities can you name that have been done in the name of atheism.

Plenty of atrocities have been committed by atheists, but unless it is done because of their atheism then atheism is not at fault, the person is. Regardless of how many go along with it.

(28-01-2013 09:16 AM)Atothetheist Wrote: It seems to me that to other atheists this is a complete No-Brainer, but to theists, especially the ones I deal with everyday, it boggles the mind. It seems as if they have this idea that atheism( The lack of belief in a god) is responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in recent decades. From Hitler to Stalin to the ElevatorGate incident I have had theists on my ass pointing out that atheism is a morally corrupt worldview. Leaving aside the fact that Atheism in itself is not a worldview, atheism has absolutely no stake in morality. It has no creed, or moral tennets that we, as fellow non-believers, must follow in order to BE an atheist, or get some magical prize at the end of life.

Let me break apart my whole reasoning as to why Sexism in the Secular/Skeptical community, or any issue similar is not reflective of atheism or is not the fault of atheism. Besides not having a moral creed, atheism is really a simple title to use. There are no strict rules to call under that title. We have no forbidden food or even sexual positions. We have no tithes and we have no churches. Hell, you can still believe in Ghosts and woo-poo and still be an atheist. You can be straight, gay, transgender etc. You can be a gun loving republican, a peace loving socialist, a big government democratic or any options inbetween and still be an atheist. Because atheism only elaborates on one of the many aspects of you , you can have a wide variety of people in the atheism section.

This means, you can have sexists,racists, good people, murderers, con artists, etc in there as well. However, as none of you here need reminding, just because atheists can do bad things it doesn't mean that atheism is at fault. Nor does it prove anything about atheism if good deeds or bad ones are perpetrated by atheists.

It's one of the many good things about it. We can have a diverse group of people for whom we can discuss and debate and elaborate on very different, whether it be social or scientific, aspects of life, the universe, or God. When I hear about issues pertaining to atheism, as long as it is not dealing with the definition, I see no problem with other atheists behaving like dicks. I will reprimand them, not because they are giving atheism a bad name, but because they are being an awful human being.

It's with this mindset that ElevatorGate and other such incidents are viewed, by be, at a purely INDIVIDUAL level. If one person who happens to be an atheist does something bad, it's on the person, not atheism.
-Steven
Sorry, had to get this out, because I am frustrated with people asking me this. Now at least I can link them to something :$

When you're older, we'll tell you about the sexual positions.

What do we call "missionary"?

I've just been going with "Oh my non-existent-god your boobs are fucking perfect", but I feel like there's a more dignified name for it somewhere.