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Full Metal Panic is in the odd position of being a franchise that pulls good sales by the standard of most studios but bad sales by Kyoto's standards... I wouldn't be surprised to see someone else do the rest of the series at some point. I just hope someone does a decent adaptation, FMP is one of the "animes that got me into anime" (although Moon Phase is the show that really got me into anime) and I still have a soft spot for it.

Agreed that it's quite likely that Key will choose to team up with PA Works rather than Kyoto from now on, particularly since Angel Beats' sales didn't seem to suffer from the change. Actually, Angel Beats' high sales surprised me since I thought that half the reason people liked Key's anime was because of Kyoto Animation - Air TV in particular seems like it really raised Key's profile, even if Key was quite popular previously.

Full Metal Panic is in the odd position of being a franchise that pulls good sales by the standard of most studios but bad sales by Kyoto's standards... I wouldn't be surprised to see someone else do the rest of the series at some point. I just hope someone does a decent adaptation, FMP is one of the "animes that got me into anime" (although Moon Phase is the show that really got me into anime) and I still have a soft spot for it.

Agreed that it's quite likely that Key will choose to team up with PA Works rather than Kyoto from now on, particularly since Angel Beats' sales didn't seem to suffer from the change. Actually, Angel Beats' high sales surprised me since I thought that half the reason people liked Key's anime was because of Kyoto Animation - Air TV in particular seems like it really raised Key's profile, even if Key was quite popular previously.

Kyoto Animation did help Key's anime... by doing very high quality adaptations.

PA Works does similarly high quality work, at a basic artistic level (i.e. how well-drawn the characters are, the fluidity and smoothness of the animation, a general sense of excellent production values, etc...).

Kyoto Animation aren't successful just because they're Kyoto Animation (i.e. it isn't just a question of brand marketing and brand loyalty like with, say, McDonald's or Walmart).

Kyoto Animation are successful because they consistently do good work, period. That, and they usually have excellent marketing for the works that they do. The issues with Haruhi 2009 were the exception, not the rule, for them (and even Haruhi 2009 had notably good production values and impressive detail in its artwork and animation).

Now, I don't think that Kyoto Animation's approach and style is ideal for everything (which could explain FMP not doing better sales-wise), but it's ideal for certain types of animes (eroge adaptations certainly being one).

PA Works has an overall approach and style that is very similar to Kyoto Animation. If they continue to do so, I think that PA Works will have considerable further success just as Kyoto Animation has.

Hey, Toei did ok for Air. I actually preferred their character designs :/

I also wouldn't mind PA works either, though they need a bit of refining.

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Kyoto Animation did help Key's anime... by doing very high quality adaptations.

If I may offer an alternative perspective on your points starting with this one. As I saw it back when Kanon/Clannad etc. were just starting to come around, the Key anime had a very large install fanbase, not the other way around. What I mean is the majority of people who followed Kanon/Clannad etc. seemed to have already played the game and were waiting in anticipation for the anime based on the experience and likewise anticipating the popular and fan-favourite scenes, which were recreated quite faithfully from what I've been told.

Thus, it seems more like the label of faithful adaptations should apply in Kyoani's case because I think it's something everybody could agree on as one of their strengths. It's harder to argue for high quality since it's a subjective notion, but content is content and cannot be dismissed or argued against so easily.

It also seems to me that the relationship between Key and Kyoto Animation was more of a mutually beneficial one as opposed to a boon for Key courtesy of Kyoto Animation. Key has been an established brand for the better part of a decade, their fanbase is locked in and extremely devoted and the Key games that have since been adapted had already had their heyday in sales and been proven hits with visual novel gamers all across Japan before even making the transition to anime. By lending the content license for these games to be adapted into an anime, Key served to assist Kyoto Animation by offering them it's pre-installed fanbase while they in turn benefited from any resurgence of popularity and subsequent purchases of the game that happened to come about.

Also since I think it's worth mentioning, there's a name for this whole mutually beneficial system the Japanese have set over there which I believe is called "Seisaku Iinkai" where the idea is that each party involved in the making of an anime puts forth a portion of the funding and hence takes a part of the risk themselves while at the same time maintaining a portion of the rights and a say in the production of the show.

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Kyoto Animation aren't successful just because they're Kyoto Animation (i.e. it isn't just a question of brand marketing and brand loyalty like with, say, McDonald's or Walmart).

If this is the case then I think the main hang-up here is that the fans have a poor way of showing it in their posts around the internet a lot of the time when it comes to anticipation, appreciation and recollection of their shows. Take for example the thread I saw about Kyoto Animation's upcoming TV series Nichijou on MyAnimeList. I want people to count the number of times that a person says that they are interested because the material is good versus stating they will watch simply because it's being made by Kyoto Animation.

I count 14 out of 113 posts (well over 10% of the combined total posts in the thread) specifically relating to people stating how they will watch this show because it's by Kyoto Animation. I want people to think about that long and hard for a moment, because I can't find any way not to view this as an expression of brand loyalty no matter which way I turn the matter around in my head.

One more thing, I would caution against using the examples of McDonald's and Wal-Mart in any post that is attempting to express support a company, even if no attempt at a comparison is made. While associated with great success both groups are also associated with

These are among the contributing factors for their financial success, but also the focus for some of the most frequent criticism of the brand, and I don't think you want to bring up the association between Kyoto Animation and those brands because trust me their are a lot of jumping off points for people to criticize them on just by bringing the hint of a comparison to light.

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Kyoto Animation are successful because they consistently do good work, period. That, and they usually have excellent marketing for the works that they do. The issues with Haruhi 2009 were the exception, not the rule, for them (and even Haruhi 2009 had notably good production values and impressive detail in its artwork and animation).

Now, again we run into the problem of how to objectively define "good work". I'm pretty sure the posters in this thread are aware that not everybody appreciates the same types of material on the same level, so how can it be argued that they do good work with a "period" as an emphasis as if to say "end of discussion, point proven", when we're dealing with the highly subjective appreciation of art. How do you expect that to be received?

I'm not going to be the one to try and argue for or against the quality of their works in a de facto statement, but let's break it down to a matter of what can be quantified on some level instead. Kyoto Animation has a very niche appeal in which they have made their mark on the industry. In order for somebody to find their shows good they would I think have at least be in tune with the idea of moe culture in general. Moe culture is huge in Japan and Kyoto Animation has exploited it well, but as much as this may be hard to believe for some (and I'm not trying to be insulting here believe me) not everybody is into that sort of thing. In fact there's a huge chunk of anime fandom, possibly even a majority, that wants nothing to do with these types of shows. With the appeal failing to surface for that large chunk of the anime viewing demographic it becomes hard to generalize Kyoto Animation shows as good at the most basic of levels.

Lastly Kyoto Animation's marketing also owes itself to the Seisaku Iinkai system. In their case the partnership is with the publisher Kadokawa Shoten who handles a substantial chunk of publicity for their shows in the magazines it owns such as Newtype. I know it's a pain in the ass, but you can't really credit any company alone for coming up with the marketing campaign's for shows such as Haruhi because Bandai, Kyoto Animation and Kadokawa all shared a part of the risk and thus all are entitled to the benefits and credit.

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Now, I don't think that Kyoto Animation's approach and style is ideal for everything (which could explain FMP not doing better sales-wise), but it's ideal for certain types of animes (eroge adaptations certainly being one).

I think we actually share the same perspective here. I for one am not a fan of eroge adaptations and find the vast majority to not stand out from the mold in any noticeable way, but Kyoto Animation, while I may not be head over heels for their works in this area, has a way of making their attempts in adaptation come across as somewhat respectable and I think this is commendable.

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PA Works has an overall approach and style that is very similar to Kyoto Animation. If they continue to do so, I think that PA Works will have considerable further success just as Kyoto Animation has.

I'm not sure I'm the most qualified to speak about this area, but from what I've followed of the two in the area of eroge adaptations they do seem to have similar practices. Give your show a respectable budget, take the time to study the material and transition it to an animated format, account for pacing, give the people what they want. It's a good approach overall for winning the hearts and minds of the visual novel/eroge playing crowd.

If I may offer an alternative perspective on your points starting with this one. As I saw it back when Kanon/Clannad etc. were just starting to come around, the Key anime had a very large install fanbase, not the other way around.

True, but the difference in commercial success (i.e. DVD/Bluray sales) between Toei's Kanon (Kanon 2002) and Kyoto Animation's Kanon (Kanon 2006) is quite notable, and speaks to how Kyoto Animation really did help out Key here.

Now, no doubt Kyoto Animation benefited from having popular source material to adapt. That's what Key brought to the table. But I really don't think that just any animation studio would have had that success, because not all of them have the approach or style of a Kyoto Animation.

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What I mean is the majority of people who followed Kanon/Clannad etc. seemed to have already played the game and were waiting in anticipation for the anime based on the experience and likewise anticipating the popular and fan-favourite scenes, which were recreated quite faithfully from what I've been told.

I agree on Clannad, but with Kanon I know that a lot of anime fans were wondering "Why is this getting another anime adaptation when Toei did it only four years ago?" It could even be argued that Kyoto Animation's Kanon would need to be significantly superior to Toei's (or at least viewed that way) just to justify it's very existence.

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Thus, it seems more like the label of faithful adaptations should apply in Kyoani's case because I think it's something everybody could agree on as one of their strengths.

Well, It could easily be argued that being faithful to the source material is a key component to a high quality anime adaptation. At the very least, I very rarely see an anime complimented for not being faithful to its source material.

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It's harder to argue for high quality since it's a subjective notion,

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my point. I was talking about high quality adaptations, and not the anime being high quality in a more general sense.

In other words, I'm certainly not saying that Kanon 2006 is an objectively great anime, and if you disagree, you're wrong, end of story.

What I am saying is that Kanon 2006 is a high quality adaptation because there are certain objective measures that you can apply to the quality of an adaptation.

You yourself alluded to them.

"Give your show a respectable budget, take the time to study the material and transition it to an animated format, account for pacing, give the people what they want. It's a good approach overall for winning the hearts and minds of the visual novel/eroge playing crowd."

There's a certain objective quality to high production values (which comes about through a respectable or greater budget). Anybody can tell how well-crafted, at a basic visual level, Gundam Unicorn is, for example. A lot of people may not like Gundam Unicorn, but I don't think anybody would say that it lacks good animation. Keeping the distinction between artstyle and animation in mind here, of course.

To me, one of the most important goals for an anime adaptation should be to make it appealing visually, and that's where high production values really help. An anime adaptation, like a live-action movie adaptation, has little control over how popular or how good the source material for their work is. But what they do control is what it looks like on-screen, and there are some measures of quality here.

Now, if you want, you can replace my "high quality adaptation" in the post you responded to with "high production values", because that's mainly what I was getting at here. For further example of what I was getting at here, Kyoto Animation is famous for their attention to detail. Consider that they actually use carefully done line sketches of real world locales in Haruhi's anime.

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It also seems to me that the relationship between Key and Kyoto Animation was more of a mutually beneficial one as opposed to a boon for Key courtesy of Kyoto Animation.

Well, I agree that it was mutually beneficial.

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Also since I think it's worth mentioning, there's a name for this whole mutually beneficial system the Japanese have set over there which I believe is called "Seisaku Iinkai" where the idea is that each party involved in the making of an anime puts forth a portion of the funding and hence takes a part of the risk themselves while at the same time maintaining a portion of the rights and a say in the production of the show.

Thanks for the info.

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If this is the case then I think the main hang-up here is that the fans have a poor way of showing it in their posts around the internet a lot of the time when it comes to anticipation, appreciation and recollection of their shows. Take for example the thread I saw about Kyoto Animation's upcoming TV series Nichijou on MyAnimeList. I want people to count the number of times that a person says that they are interested because the material is good versus stating they will watch simply because it's being made by Kyoto Animation.

I count 14 out of 113 posts (well over 10% of the combined total posts in the thread) specifically relating to people stating how they will watch this show because it's by Kyoto Animation. I want people to think about that long and hard for a moment, because I can't find any way not to view this as an expression of brand loyalty no matter which way I turn the matter around in my head.

I think that brand loyalty can impact on how many people watch an anime show. But I think that this watching experience generally needs to be a pleasant and/or entertaining one in order for it to turn into a DVD/Blu-Ray purchase.

Also, marketing can make up some of the difference that brand loyalty brings to the fore. Angel Beats!, while made by an animation studio less popular than Kyoto Animation, made up the difference through effective marketing. I mean, I watched one of the trailers for its anime, and I felt that it was a very good trailer.

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One more thing, I would caution against using the examples of McDonald's and Wal-Mart in any post that is attempting to express support a company, even if no attempt at a comparison is made.

Well, I was drawing a contrast between Kyoto Animation and McDonald's/Wal-Mart. There's no question that brand loyalty factors in heavily to McDonald's/Wal-Mart. Both are huge and seemingly everywhere. Kyoto Animation is actually a small animation studio that does relatively few works (compared to a giant like Sunrise).

Still, I thank you for your advice.

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*snipping moe debate because it was not something I was intending by my first post on this thread*

Lastly Kyoto Animation's marketing also owes itself to the Seisaku Iinkai system. In their case the partnership is with the publisher Kadokawa Shoten who handles a substantial chunk of publicity for their shows in the magazines it owns such as Newtype. I know it's a pain in the ass, but you can't really credit any company alone for coming up with the marketing campaign's for shows such as Haruhi because Bandai, Kyoto Animation and Kadokawa all shared a part of the risk and thus all are entitled to the benefits and credit.

Well, fair enough. Good point.

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I think we actually share the same perspective here. I for one am not a fan of eroge adaptations and find the vast majority to not stand out from the mold in any noticeable way, but Kyoto Animation, while I may not be head over heels for their works in this area, has a way of making their attempts in adaptation come across as somewhat respectable and I think this is commendable.

I agree that it is commendable. I'm not majorly into eroge adaptations in general, but a couple of the Kyoto Animation ones are amongst my favorite animes.

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I'm not sure I'm the most qualified to speak about this area, but from what I've followed of the two in the area of eroge adaptations they do seem to have similar practices. Give your show a respectable budget, take the time to study the material and transition it to an animated format, account for pacing, give the people what they want. It's a good approach overall for winning the hearts and minds of the visual novel/eroge playing crowd.

I totally agree.

Thank you for your reply as it gave me a chance to clarify myself, and precisely what I meant by "high quality adaptation".

When it comes to technicals, they are the best Animation studio around.

Their works are very detailed. just look at the Utauyo! Opening for K-On!! and The Summer Festival episode of Haruhi Suzumiya. You can see how much they are able to give in details into every scene.

Also, their camera work is amazing. Watching K-On!, you feel like you are a part of the story. the camera work in most KyoAni animes have a third person shot, but with a first person perspective, which is good.

Sadly, their adaptations have been mediocrely moe. As much as i love Lucky Star, Haruhi Suzumiya and K-On!!(screw the haters), i'm kinda dissappointed that they are not doing much. Most of their works are pretty much based on romantic, moe or Key stuff that i really don't bother watching. Imagine KyoAni's level of work and detail used on Haruhi Suzumiya and K-On being used for a new Full Metal Panic sequel. Imagine how awesome it'd look. Also, i can see how awesome it'd look if Kyoto Animation did a collaboration series with Madhouse, Aniplex or Bones. Imagine how much a visual scenery would be made by a joint KyoAni-Madhouse/Bones series. it would be amazing.

Kyoto Animation has LOTS of potential, and i'm optimistic of that. i just wish for them to move on from moe and Key or else they might be a shadow of their former selves.

KyoAni is good at what it does which is slice of life related with great animation quality and detailed (animation wise) characters. There is heavy emphasis on moe and in their Key adaptations, drama. Funny enough, their non-Key/4-koma related material appears to sell better than their Key adaptations for some reason, but their Key adaptations are usually acclaimed to be "better" in terms of rating.

However, it will be questionable to say that KyoaAni is good at everything. They lack the experience and variety of other studios such as Madhouse, Bones and even J. C. Staff (which seems to be winning studio in terms of # of anime produced, quality aside). They have yet to make a foothold on a proper action series, non-romance related drama, horror, thriller etc.
They also have yet to make a foothold on making female characters other than those with great emphasis on moe. What I mean by this is characters that have a "cool" factor such as Saber (FSN), Shiki (KnK) or Bouqet (Noir).

Hence, KyoAni has been pretty narrow in what it's done so far (this could change over time), but they're really good at what they do, and for their target audience. It is no brainer that non-moe fans are not going to like KyoAni.

I do have to disagree with this one statement however:

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Originally Posted by Triple_R

PA Works has an overall approach and style that is very similar to Kyoto Animation. If they continue to do so, I think that PA Works will have considerable further success just as Kyoto Animation has.

P A Works is new studio that only has 3 works under their belt: True Tears, Canaan and Angel Beats. Previous to this, they collaborated with other studios in assisting making anime such as Darker than Black and Seirei no Moribito. They have a 4th work in development, which I will talk about shortly. Out of these, only Angel Beats bears any resemblance to KyoAni's approach and style. Although it is the most popular and "best seller" of the three, it is also the most controversial - some people have even accused P A Works of "selling-out" or "riding-on" KyoAni's success. Hence, it is difficult to conclude that they have an approach and style similar to KyoAni. P A Works may continue to have success if they choose to "copy" or be "influenced" by KyoAni, but it will always be one step below KyoAni they choose to do so.

Now in terms of P.A. Work's 4th work, Hanasaku Iroha, they are going back to their "True Tears" route of making an anime original, with their own style of art (True Tears and Canaan's artstyles were very similar as are the screenshots for Hanasaku Iroha) which is quite distinctive from KyoAni's.

Oddly, they have shown some cleverness with other types of anime within their standard slice-of-life/moe shows. Sometimes using other styles, and/or showing off some other types of stories within a small piece of an anime.

Of course we know they can do mecha as shown with Full Metal Panic's The Second Raid. We know they can do space opera style animation from the Haruhi episode about a space based computer game. We know they can pull off drama scenes from the various Key works and the Haruhi movie. They've shown to be able to go from cartoonish to realistic in their various productions (sometimes within the same show).

They are well known for their very realistic backgrounds and wouldn't be suprised if they did some in their early days (pre-AIR, FMP, and Munto).

What they don't have is a wide selection of anime yet, as they seem to focus on one at a time (mostly). Maybe they'll get around to something else, or maybe they won't. All depends on how much time they can spend on a project and how much they think they can profit from that one project over say another type of project.

Oddly, they have shown some cleverness with other types of anime within their standard slice-of-life/moe shows. Sometimes using other styles, and/or showing off some other types of stories within a small piece of an anime.

Of course we know they can do mecha as shown with Full Metal Panic's The Second Raid. We know they can do space opera style animation from the Haruhi episode about a space based computer game. We know they can pull off drama scenes from the various Key works and the Haruhi movie. They've shown to be able to go from cartoonish to realistic in their various productions (sometimes within the same show).

What they don't have is a wide selection of anime yet, as they seem to focus on one at a time (mostly). Maybe they'll get around to something else, or maybe they won't. All depends on how much time they can spend on a project and how much they think they can profit from that one project over say another type of project.

And that's why i think KyoAni would benefit from making a collaboration with Madhouse or Bones/Aniplex in a FMP series.

Imagine a FMP series with the visuals of Star Driver. That would be amazing. Add to the amount of visual detail made by KyoAni and you'll have a FMP season more visually stunning than every other Aniplex and KyoAni series.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro

They are well known for their very realistic backgrounds and wouldn't be suprised if they did some in their early days (pre-AIR, FMP, and Munto).

here's a bit of trivia for you: They did background visuals for Gainax's Evangelion and Miyazaki's Kiki Delivery Service.

P A Works is new studio that only has 3 works under their belt: True Tears, Canaan and Angel Beats. Previous to this, they collaborated with other studios in assisting making anime such as Darker than Black and Seirei no Moribito. They have a 4th work in development, which I will talk about shortly. Out of these, only Angel Beats bears any resemblance to KyoAni's approach and style.

I have to disagree.

When watching True Tears, I felt that the anime had an overall artistic style, and a degree of attention to visual detail, very reminiscent to an anime produced by Kyoto Animation.

Honesty, acejem, I'm surprised that as a True Tears fan who has watched a lot of Kyoto Animation shows that you're not seeing the similarity yourself.

I mean, I'm certainly not saying that True Tears' overall artistic style is identical to either of those employed by Kyoto Animation, but there are many aspects that True Tears' overall artistic style shares with Kyoto Animation.

Consider the two screenshots:

Spoiler for Haruhi 2006/True Tears screenshot comparison:

Now there are nuanced differences between the two, of course, but there's quite a few things alike between them as well.

Also, when comparing PA Works to Kyoto Animation, I was talking in part about how they have similar practices; basically, the very same practices that Kaioshin alluded to.

Kyoto Animation has LOTS of potential, and i'm optimistic of that. i just wish for them to move on from moe and Key or else they might be a shadow of their former selves.

It's never going to happen and considering how good FMP TSR was it saddens me. It's like if Michael Jordan had worked and developed a great 3 point shot early in his career.. and just threw up threes instead of attacking the rim. That's how I feel about Kyo Ani.

Kyoto Animation did help Key's anime... by doing very high quality adaptations.

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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

If I may offer an alternative perspective on your points starting with this one. As I saw it back when Kanon/Clannad etc. were just starting to come around, the Key anime had a very large install fanbase, not the other way around. What I mean is the majority of people who followed Kanon/Clannad etc. seemed to have already played the game and were waiting in anticipation for the anime based on the experience and likewise anticipating the popular and fan-favourite scenes, which were recreated quite faithfully from what I've been told.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

True, but the difference in commercial success (i.e. DVD/Bluray sales) between Toei's Kanon (Kanon 2002) and Kyoto Animation's Kanon (Kanon 2006) is quite notable, and speaks to how Kyoto Animation really did help out Key here.

Now, no doubt Kyoto Animation benefited from having popular source material to adapt. That's what Key brought to the table. But I really don't think that just any animation studio would have had that success, because not all of them have the approach or style of a Kyoto Animation.

Case in point for the bolded section. The original Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night source materials were easily just as well received and on par with the Key comparisons being talked about here. The anime adaptations for FS/N and Tsukihime however failed to meet the same warm receptions as the KyoAni-Key adaptions despite an equally popular source material. I've seen countless times people even going as far as to refusing the acknowledging of or existence of either the FS/N and/or Tsukihime anime. Now i know those opinions lean towards the extreme side of the spectrum and not everyone shares the same discontent, but it still serves as a good highlight that success is not solely dependant on the source material imo.

EDIT: Also in regards to KyoAni doing an action series. I think Munto kinda fits the bill right? lol

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I mean, I'm certainly not saying that True Tears' overall artistic style is identical to either of those employed by Kyoto Animation, but there are many aspects that True Tears' overall artistic style shares with Kyoto Animation.

Consider the two screenshots:

Spoiler for Haruhi 2006/True Tears screenshot comparison:

Now there are nuanced differences between the two, of course, but there's quite a few things alike between them as well.

like how to be more specific? Sincerely speaking, I'm looking at the two screenshots and I fail to see what exactly you are trying to get at with regards to the art style. The two pictures are fundamentally different and the only thing they shared in similarity is the subject matter: two people. I can go in more detail and describe how there's a stronger presence of blues and greens in the first one, or how it follows a light logic; but given that they not very alike in essence, I have little to no idea if this really proves something about True Tears sharing similarities with Kyoani's works in terms of art style.