National Cathedral to begin performing gay weddings

posted at 8:14 pm on January 9, 2013 by Allahpundit

It’s nominally Episcopal but I’ve always thought of it as the beating heart of ceremonial deism, so no surprise that it would shift as the wider public does.

Say this for the dean, too: He makes no bones about his political intentions. Although if you’re head of the National Cathedral and reaching out to press a hot button, why bother doing that? Why pretend it’s a purely religious decision when it’s not?

“I read the Bible as seriously as fundamentalists do,” Hall told the AP. “And my reading of the Bible leads me to want to do this because I think it’s being faithful to the kind of community that Jesus would have us be.”

Celebrating same-sex weddings is important beyond the Episcopal Church, Hall said. Church debate is largely settled on the matter, allowing for local decisions, he said. The move is also a chance to influence the nation.

“As a kind of tall-steeple, public church in the nation’s capital, by saying we’re going to bless same-sex marriages, conduct same-sex marriages, we are really trying to take the next step for marriage equality in the nation and in the culture,” Hall said.

This comes on the same day that lefties are grumbling at Obama for letting the benediction at his inauguration be delivered by a pastor from Atlanta who opposes gay marriage, believes homosexuality is a sin, and thinks Christ can help lead gays out of their “lifestyle.” Looking forward to the official White House statement about how those views are allegedly too far out of the mainstream of Christian thinking to earn him a spot at the national table on the 21st.

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Gotta love this one. Yes, infertile couples can marry in a Christian church. Most have no idea they’re infertile until they’ve tried quite a few times.

Many infertile couples wind up adopting .. and then the wife gets pregnant.

Oops.

But the most amazing thing is, that never seems to happen with same-sex couples.

Funny, but true.

tom on January 9, 2013 at 9:19 PM

Yeah I always laugh at the infertile line. Even people who have had the infertile diagnosis have ended up getting pregnant. Infertility diagnoses are largely unreliable. Then there are those whose husband got fixed and oops. :)

Have you seen the pipe organ player? C’mon, y’all. This can’t be a surprise.
SouthernGent on January 9, 2013 at 8:34 PM

As troubling as this is, not the least because it won’t generate much in the way of national introspection, as it should if we still had a national soul, but the first lesbian wedding at West Point’s chapel a few weeks after the presidential election shook me more.

How anyone can’t see the signs all around them is truly astounding to me.

You’re entitled to your beliefs, hun, but you are not entitled to your own facts. :)

ZachV on January 9, 2013 at 9:12 PM

First off, I am not a believer- something I have told you numerous times. Secondly even if the ancient Jews accepted a genital condition your condition is a preference not a medical condition hun..

melle1228 on January 9, 2013 at 9:17 PM

Of course, you’ve repeated that to me many times. However that’s not the point. I would not surprise me that more than a few commentators take the whole Bible as the literal truth, and thus use it as a citation. The problem arises when, indeed, the Bible is not factual and contains many false statements like Matthew 19:5 (being disproven by careful observation in medicine).

It requires calling attention to the false Biblical derived belief or passage — like how Pat Robertson recently called out the Creationists, or how the Pope addressed ‘evolution’ as factual.

No, no really. Been reading the Bible for a while, though. Let’s just say that there are lots of things in the Bible that don’t get mentioned often in Sunday School or popular culture because they don’t always fit neatly into a sermon.

That’s why everyone has heard the story of Daniel in the Lion’s Den, but few hear about the assumption of Enoch. It’s passed by in a single verse, and it’s just too short an event to build a lesson or sermon around.

Of course, you’ve repeated that to me many times. However that’s not the point. I would not surprise me that more than a few commentators take the whole Bible as the literal truth, and thus use it as a citation. The problem arises when, indeed, the Bible is not factual and contains many false statements like Matthew 19:5 (being disproven by careful observation in medicine).

It requires calling attention to the false Biblical derived belief or passage — like how Pat Robertson recently called out the Creationists, or how the Pope addressed ‘evolution’ as factual.

ZachV on January 9, 2013 at 9:25 PM

And that is my point though Zach. Who cares if they take the Bible at literal truth? Want people to stay out of your relationship and stop questioning your sexuality? Try giving the same respect back- just a thought.

You might have a point if Matthew 19:5 was intended to be tested by science &/or medicine. Surely the observations you’ve mentioned have been confirmed, but they do not disprove the claims of Matthew 19:5.

No, no really. Been reading the Bible for a while, though. Let’s just say that there are lots of things in the Bible that don’t get mentioned often in Sunday School or popular culture because they don’t always fit neatly into a sermon.

That’s why everyone has heard the story of Daniel in the Lion’s Den, but few hear about the assumption of Enoch. It’s passed by in a single verse, and it’s just too short an event to build a lesson or sermon around.

From the Gospels: “You should be able to do whatever you want, as long as you don’t hurt anyone. You should be able to love whoever you want, and not have people hate you for it, be driven out of the military for it, or be denied housing or employment, or the ability to conduct sleepovers as a Boy Scout scoutmaster. To deny a man laying with another man is an abomination. Bring your farm animals out to the front lawn, so that we may know them.”

I think I read a Limbaugh transcript the other day where he said that pedophilia is the next “alternative lifestyle” to be consecrated by college-student popular shifting opinion stuff. It is indeed on the way.

You’re entitled to your beliefs, hun, but you are not entitled to your own facts. :)

ZachV on January 9, 2013 at 9:12 PM

First off, I am not a believer- something I have told you numerous times. Secondly even if the ancient Jews accepted a genital condition your condition is a preference not a medical condition hun..

melle1228 on January 9, 2013 at 9:17 PM

Of course, you’ve repeated that to me many times. However that’s not the point. I would not surprise me that more than a few commentators take the whole Bible as the literal truth, and thus use it as a citation. The problem arises when, indeed, the Bible is not factual and contains many false statements like Matthew 19:5 (being disproven by careful observation in medicine).

It requires calling attention to the false Biblical derived belief or passage — like how Pat Robertson recently called out the Creationists, or how the Pope addressed ‘evolution’ as factual.

ZachV on January 9, 2013 at 9:25 PM

If you had a better grasp on logic, you would realize that Jesus was making a reference to God’s design and the male and female were made for each other. Rare genetic abnormalities don’t “disprove” that.

The real problem here is that you want to make the Bible mean what you want it to mean. Such as declaring that the centurion’s “servant” that Jesus healed was really his “pleasure” slave, and that Jesus was therefore condoning both homosexuality and sexual slavery.

Sorry, I’d love to play some more. Especially when the targets are this easy.

“As a kind of tall-steeple, public church in the nation’s capital, by saying we’re going to bless same-sex marriages, conduct same-sex marriages, we are really trying to take the next step for marriage equality in the nation and in the culture,” Hall said.

The simple fact is the Episcopalian Church is trying to be modern, cool and relevant. It hasn’t brought the numbers in their pews they expected and it will further cause a schism within their church.

That being said, if this church wants to do this-Meh! I don’t know how they reconcile this all with the Bible, but that isn’t my problem- and ultimately I don’t have to stand and be judged for it in the end.

And that is my point though Zach. Who cares if they take the Bible at literal truth? Want people to stay out of your relationship and stop questioning your sexuality? Try giving the same respect back- just a thought.

melle1228 on January 9, 2013 at 9:27 PM

Why point out that psychics cannot actually talk to the dead? Or that naturopathy, chiropractics, and alternative medicines are not based in evidence and don’t actually work? Or that alien abductions, ghost and ghouls, astrology, ESP, etc. is flat out phooey?

Once we begin to believe in bullshit and magic, we lose our ability to critically think and factually examine the world around us. We become victims of superstition and those who wish to take advantage of us. Those who believe the Bible is the literal truth are substituting a book with critical thinking, despite the fact that passages like Matthew 19:5 are factually incorrect.

Also, I only asked because she has been posting about the 2nd amendment lately and going to scripture. The very same verses you quoted.

tom daschle concerned on January 9, 2013 at 9:30 PM

I’d certainly be hesitant to try to turn those verses into a statement by Jesus on gun control. But at the very least, He was condoning self defense. I don’t think swords have ever been considered a hunting implement. Which shoots holes into the attempt to line up Jesus on the side of gun control.

Sorry, I really do have to go, but I couldn’t resist commenting on the relevance of this “Jesus quote” to the gun control issue. It punctures the popular caricature of Jesus.

Once we begin to believe in bullshit and magic, we lose our ability to critically think and factually examine the world around us. We become victims of superstition and those who wish to take advantage of us.

HA
HA
HA
HA
HA
HA
sorry channeling drywall for a tic.

so much logic fail…

premise 1 : Once we begin to believe in bullshit and magic
conclusion 1 : we lose our ability to critically think and factually examine the world around us.
conclusion 2 : We become victims of superstition and those who wish to take advantage of us

If someone who died in 1960 cane back to life they would be be in awe at the technical advances that have occurred. But they would be even more shocked at the changes in morality and values that have taken place.

Once we begin to believe in bullshit and magic, we lose our ability to critically think and factually examine the world around us. We become victims of superstition and those who wish to take advantage of us. Those who believe the Bible is the literal truth are substituting a book with critical thinking, despite the fact that passages like Matthew 19:5 are factually incorrect.

ZachV on January 9, 2013 at 9:36 PM

Oh, good grief. Here we go again with the “I’ll be cute by being more of a literalist than even a fundie!!!” Jesus also said he was “the true vine”. That can’t be true, so none of it is true!!!! It’s created by Josephus!!!! Jesus was actually a Zealot terrorist!!!! Blahblahblah.

Speaking of superstition and being a slave to traditional modes of thought, what do you say about a woman wanting to marry a parakeet?

If you had a better grasp on logic, you would realize that Jesus was making a reference to God’s design and the male and female were made for each other. Rare genetic abnormalities don’t “disprove” that.

tom on January 9, 2013 at 9:32 PM

You are attributing an argument to him, which he has not made. And, evidently, is incapable of articulating himself. But he’s the one who “thinks critically.” It is all so amusing, but I don’t know why you are all assuming his arguments and engaging him.

I’d certainly be hesitant to try to turn those verses into a statement by Jesus on gun control. But at the very least, He was condoning self defense. I don’t think swords have ever been considered a hunting implement. Which shoots holes into the attempt to line up Jesus on the side of gun control.

Sorry, I really do have to go, but I couldn’t resist commenting on the relevance of this “Jesus quote” to the gun control issue. It punctures the popular caricature of Jesus.

tom on January 9, 2013 at 9:38 PM

Actually she was making a defense for the right to arm one’s self with the weapon’s of one’s time. Hardly an argument for gun control. No worries. Have a good night.

Why point out that psychics cannot actually talk to the dead? Or that naturopathy, chiropractics, and alternative medicines are not based in evidence and don’t actually work? Or that alien abductions, ghost and ghouls, astrology, ESP, etc. is flat out phooey?

Actually you spend too much time caring what people believe…

Once we begin to believe in bullshit and magic, we lose our ability to critically think and factually examine the world around us. We become victims of superstition and those who wish to take advantage of us. Those who believe the Bible is the literal truth are substituting a book with critical thinking, despite the fact that passages like Matthew 19:5 are factually incorrect.

ZachV on January 9, 2013 at 9:36 PM

Actually some of the most critical thinkers have been religious. One of the smartest most logical man I know is a fundamentalist Christian. He always says that he has blind faith but didn’t come to his faith blindly. You may not understand why he believes what he does but that doesn’t suddenly make him ignorant. He understanding of science and physics blows my mind and yet he is still faithful. You have a biased against people. You should really open your mind and your heart.

Don’t believe? Fine, then don’t believe. But don’t walk into a Christian church and demand that they endorse your lifestyle, which is, by Christianity’s lights, sinful. As I said, I’ve done some naughty things, dated some extremely naughty girls, had an incredible time, and know that by Christian standards, I’m headed fer Hell unless I ask forgiveness (I haven’t, and since I’m not penitent for my good times, I can’t really ask for forgiveness). My status on a sinner does not entitle me to go to a community of Christians and demand that they change the rules so that I’m supposedly no longer a sinner, so I can do whatever the Hell I please, and so I have greater self-esteem cuz now they say what I do is okay with God. If you don’t want to abide by the club rules, get out of the club, don’t expect the club to change the rules. This applies to all religions, by the way. I’m not going to become a Buddhist, or a Hindu, and then demand they change the tenets of their faith to make me happy. As for desecrated holy sites–yes, the performance of unholy sacraments in the Cathedral desecrates it. It’s such a mockery of the Christian sacrament of marriage, it smells of Satanism. By the same light however, I won’t hang out in a holy site of *any* faith that has been desecrated. I just think it’s bad juju overall. Just like I don’t use Ouija boards, or chant “Bloody Mary” in a darkened bathroom. Do I believe in demonic possession or murderous spirits? Not particularly, but why tempt fate?

No, really. Why could idiots like this Reverend Jello object to, say, the marriage of a 50-year-old man to a 12-year-old girl? Or boy? Where’s the limit once you say there is no limit?

ddrintn on January 9, 2013 at 9:35 PM

ddrintn:

Well,at one time in our history,probably after the 1900’s to the
70’s,common deceit sense would dictate,that entertaining the mere
thoughts of your suggestions,would have a mob,chasing you down the
street,for tarring and feathering!!

Why point out that psychics cannot actually talk to the dead? Or that naturopathy, chiropractics, and alternative medicines are not based in evidence and don’t actually work? Or that alien abductions, ghost and ghouls, astrology, ESP, etc. is flat out phooey?

Once we begin to believe in bullshit and magic, we lose our ability to critically think and factually examine the world around us. We become victims of superstition and those who wish to take advantage of us. Those who believe the Bible is the literal truth are substituting a book with critical thinking, despite the fact that passages like Matthew 19:5 are factually incorrect.

ZachV on January 9, 2013 at 9:36 PM

Re: The ‘God made them male and female’ and ‘leave to become one flesh’ nonsense. What about hermaphrodites?

Two XXY persons (extra X-chromosomes), who physically appear to be male, are each attracted to two different sexes. Who’s more morally correct? The XXY man who is attracted to another man, or the XXY man who is attracted to females? What about a XXY person who dates both males and females?

Or, how about an XY male who has an Androgen insensitivity syndrome. He is genetically male, but physically appears as a female. Who can this person date without being condemned to hell by the Bible literalist? Is this person condemned to a life of misery and loneliness on the chance of not being damned.

Science has well established that, ipso facto, sexuality is affected by pre-natal hormones and pre-determinate gene expressions; but has not yet determined the exact factors or process behind it. What differentiates between them and the above cases?

Scientifically whose to say that hermaphrotism existed in ancient Jerusalem. Maybe it is some enviromental stressor of the mother that didn’t exist back then. Do you have any hardcore scientific information that the condition existed back then?

Well, yes, of course. It’s strange that some people don’t already understand that gay people aren’t going to put with persecution anymore. They will be vocal and out. The philosophically conservative approach is to attempt to integrate into our society’s institutions.

Well, yes, of course. It’s strange that some people don’t already understand that gay people aren’t going to put with persecution anymore. They will be vocal and out. The philosophically conservative approach is to attempt to integrate into our society’s institutions.

thuja on January 9, 2013 at 9:54 PM

I have to laugh, because you are so transparent. Everytime gay marriage is argued it is brought up that it will ultimately lead to churches being forced to marry gay couples. And people like you cry “noooo, will never happen.”

And yet, in the same breath you cite churches choosing not to marry gays is persecution, and that you guys aren’t going to put up with it anymore. So ultimately you are transparent. Your ultimate goal is forcing churches by any means necessary- thank you for the confirmation. Facism in rainbow chaps…

Re: The ‘God made them male and female’ and ‘leave to become one flesh’ nonsense. What about hermaphrodites?

ZachV on January 9, 2013 at 9:47 PM

#1 – Presumably you understand the difference between inclusive and exclusive language. You are assuming that the language is exclusive for no apparent reason. So much for critical thinking, particularly that which is inconsistent with your preconceived biases.

#2 – Everyone is predisposed to want to do things that are inconsistent with God’s laws. Something recognized by the Bible and all Christians. I’m not sure how you identifying a few specific examples of just that is supposed to prove anything. Teach me, oh great oracle ZachV.

I have to laugh, because you are so transparent. Everytime gay marriage is argued it is brought up that it will ultimately lead to churches being forced to marry gay couples. And people like you cry “noooo, will never happen.”

And yet, in the same breath you cite churches choosing not to marry gays is persecution, and that you guys aren’t going to put up with it anymore. So ultimately you are transparent. Your ultimate goal is forcing churches by any means necessary- thank you for the confirmation. Facism in rainbow chaps…

melle1228 on January 9, 2013 at 9:59 PM

I am happy to allow people to act on their petty bigotries. I want to repeal the Civil Right of 1964. But I’m not going to call anyone’s bigotries, anything less than vile, disgusting behavior. If you want to go to restaurants that doesn’t allow people of a particular race to dine, fine but you are a disgusting human being. If you want to go to a church or synagogue or Hindu or Buddhist temple that doesn’t have gay marriage, fine but you are a disgusting human being.

Gotta love this one. Yes, infertile couples can marry in a Christian church. Most have no idea they’re infertile until they’ve tried quite a few times.

Many infertile couples wind up adopting .. and then the wife gets pregnant.

Oops.

But the most amazing thing is, that never seems to happen with same-sex couples.

Funny, but true.

tom on January 9, 2013 at 9:19 PM

Yeah I always laugh at the infertile line. Even people who have had the infertile diagnosis have ended up getting pregnant. Infertility diagnoses are largely unreliable. Then there are those whose husband got fixed and oops. :)

melle1228 on January 9, 2013 at 9:21 PM

Why is it funny? Plenty of couples unable to have children or have no intention of having children get married and yet same sex couples inability to have offspring is cited as a reason for opposing same sex marriage. I understand that most men might not know that they are infertile until they try to have children but for a range of reasons many women do. There are no religious prohibitions against couples who can’t have children getting married.

A man and a woman are designed to produce a child. Sometimes there is a choice not to or something is physically wrong, but the design is still there. Two people of the same sex are not designed to reproduce.

Why is it funny? Plenty of couples unable to have children or have no intention of having children get married and yet same sex couples inability to have offspring is cited as a reason for opposing same sex marriage. I understand that most men might not know that they are infertile until they try to have children but for a range of reasons many women do</blockquote

As I said in my post, infertile diagnoses are notoriously unreliable. My husband's family is plagued by endiometriosis and both his sisters and his aunt were told they were infertile and all now have several children. I know one couple who were told that they were never having kids, adopted and then got pregnant. The possibility for children is there with same sex couples not so much. I think it is a funny argument, because of the it is unreliable, and as such the state has an interest in case the diagnosis is incorrect.

There are no religious prohibitions against couples who can’t have children getting married.

So? The state’s interest in child bearing couples is not a religious tenet anyways. It is a legal one that is rife with precedent. It is only recently that the state has become daddy and marriage has become about feeling good- hence the divorce rate.

The priest claims he reads the Bible like any fundamentalist….ya and how does he reconcile what it says in the book of Romans or I guess he just twists it to how he feels Jesus would react…..Jesus never said sin and sin some more….until they find in the Bible that it is not a sin and the natural relationship that God set with a man and a woman has been cancelled by the Almighty, they pretty much are false teachers….good luck with that Mr priest because you have a geater responsibility as a priest to not teach the flockthat sin is ok which is contrary to Gods Word………Have fun splaining that to the Lord……..

That being said, if this church wants to do this-Meh! I don’t know how they reconcile this all with the Bible, but that isn’t my problem- and ultimately I don’t have to stand and be judged for it in the end.

melle1228 on January 9, 2013 at 9:33 PM

Exactly. Nothing even remotely like Christianity is observed at the National Cathedral. They worship people there, and government, liberalism, politics, and money. They do not worship Christ. It is a pretend, secular church.

The Lord is my shiter I shall not wait
Lets put anal marriage in the collection plate
And when pedophiles become PC
The child victims their spouses will be
Well marry them with their victims some day
Now all good pervs bow your heads and pray