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weapons for "tauric" creatures (not just the ones with tauric template, but creatures like the lhosk, scorpionfolk, centaur, or scorrow) are large.

initially, this makes sense, since they are large sized monsters for the most part.

until you think about the fact that they have human-sized torsos and hands. a scorrow can wield a large drow longknife even though his hands are exactly the same size as a drow, who would take a penalty.

That rule is clearly intended to mean that the spiked gauntlet itself cannot be removed from the character by a disarm. But yes, you're right about what the actual wording exactly as written means. Of course, by that same reading you could have a spiked gauntlet on one hand and it would grant disarm immunity to the weapon you're holding in your other hand.

And, as a bonus, if you slip a spiked gauntlet on your traps, they can't be disarmed.

Originally Posted by A_Moon

How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

Originally Posted by Guancyto

Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

How? Doesn't being immune to fire make them immune to any environmental heat effects?

Don't worry, it's not actually possible to die in the desert due to heat. You'll fall unconscious and keep accumulating nonlethal damage, but there's not a RAW way for it to kill you. This is also true for Starvation.

Yeah, nonlethal damage is borked across the board.

There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...

Nah, I disagree. Being immune to fire means your body won't burn. But for a sustained heat source, I can see it still causing excessive sweating and thus non-lethal damage due to dehydration and exhaustion. The fail is not exempting creatures that do not need to drink from the affects.

"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"

Don't worry, it's not actually possible to die in the desert due to heat. You'll fall unconscious and keep accumulating nonlethal damage, but there's not a RAW way for it to kill you. This is also true for Starvation.

That would make far too much sense. People will never die from nonlethal damage, nor does it make it easier to kill them. I've found that most groups either have a point where nonlethal starts becoming real damage, or that a certain amount of nonlethal kills you, but there's nothing in the rulebooks about it. You punch someone into a coma that lasts their entire life, expose them to the elements, and refuse to feed them, but they won't die until they pass old age.

Last edited by Menteith; 2012-08-11 at 03:08 PM.

There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...

That would make far too much sense. People will never die from nonlethal damage, nor does it make it easier to kill them. I've found that most groups either have a point where nonlethal starts becoming real damage, or that a certain amount of nonlethal kills you, but there's nothing in the rulebooks about it. You punch someone into a coma that lasts their entire life, expose them to the elements, and refuse to feed them, but they won't die until they pass old age.

I might be wrong here but starvation rules ought to apply to unconscious people. Plus shouldn't random encounters eat people with too much nonlethal damage lying out in the open?

I might be wrong here but starvation rules ought to apply to unconscious people.

" A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage. "

It is impossible to starve to death in D&D3.5, by RAW. If one is using a nonlethal damage fix to make it change over to lethal eventually these problems are all solved, but they qualify as dysfunctional on their own.

There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...

Nah, I disagree. Being immune to fire means your body won't burn. But for a sustained heat source, I can see it still causing excessive sweating and thus non-lethal damage due to dehydration and exhaustion. The fail is not exempting creatures that do not need to drink from the affects.

But fire elementals aren't immune to fire. They're made of fire. They don't eat or drink or sweat.
The original post, I think, was about fire elementals specifically. Unless I've gotten mixed up, in which case, my bad. Aside from that your point stands.

Jude P.

Playing Pokémon X and αS
3DS friend code: 0705-3326-2027
4- or 5-IV Pokémon available for trade listed on my Giant League Wiki page.

But fire elementals aren't just immune to fire. They're made of fire. They don't eat or drink or sweat.
The original post, I think, was about fire elementals specifically. Unless I've gotten mixed up, in which case, my bad. Aside from that your point stands.

Well that too, but I've always equated heat/fire and cold/ice damage. So being immune to fire basically means your also immune to a desert, likewise being immune to cold means you can walk across a glacier no worries. At least from temperature standpoints.

Well that too, but I've always equated heat/fire and cold/ice damage. So being immune to fire basically means your also immune to a desert, likewise being immune to cold means you can walk across a glacier no worries. At least from temperature standpoints.

That is completely sensible and should, imo, apply in every game. It was never written into the rules though, which makes it perfect for this thread

That is completely sensible and should, imo, apply in every game. It was never written into the rules though, which makes it perfect for this thread

Again, the fire immunity not making you immune to the desert environmental affects does not belong here. They are separate things (fire damage vs. non-lethal damage). You can change that, but I don't think it could be called a dysfunctional rule. What could is that creatures that do not require drink still suffering the affects.

"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"

Again, the fire immunity not making you immune to the desert environmental affects does not belong here. They are separate things (fire damage vs. non-lethal damage). You can change that, but I don't think it could be called a dysfunctional rule. What could is that creatures that do not require drink still suffering the affects.

Are we sure they rerquire no drinks?
Elementals don't eat, but it says nothing about drinking.

But yes, you're right about what the actual wording exactly as written means.

This is all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Venger

weapons for "tauric" creatures (not just the ones with tauric template, but creatures like the lhosk, scorpionfolk, centaur, or scorrow) are large.

initially, this makes sense, since they are large sized monsters for the most part.

until you think about the fact that they have human-sized torsos and hands. a scorrow can wield a large drow longknife even though his hands are exactly the same size as a drow, who would take a penalty.

Yeah, creature sizes in general are strange, especially since the 3.5 revision removed the idea of a creature being larger in some directions than others. I should open a weight-loss clinic for centaurs, since they all became twice as wide after that revision; it can't be good for their self-esteem.

Originally Posted by TypoNinja

How? Doesn't being immune to fire make them immune to any environmental heat effects?

That would be far too logical. A cleric who casts Protection from Energy to absorb the first 100 fire damage he takes, and then when that runs out casts Resist Energy to prevent 5 damage from every instance of fire damage, still needs to be punished by the DM for not having devoted a spell slot to Endure Elements, which is a completely distinct and unrelated spell.

Originally Posted by Menteith

Don't worry, it's not actually possible to die in the desert due to heat. You'll fall unconscious and keep accumulating nonlethal damage, but there's not a RAW way for it to kill you. This is also true for Starvation.

Yeah, nonlethal damage is borked across the board.

I'm tempted to use this on purpose. "In the dungeon's bottom-most pit, you find a man who has been in a coma for 87 years. If you give him a crust of bread, he instantly returns to life and joins your party. Midway through your next fight, he dies of old age."

Are we sure they rerquire no drinks?
Elementals don't eat, but it says nothing about drinking.

If you really want to be that anal about it, only creatures that are currently played by players (so that they qualify as "characters") need to drink - regardless of their race and subtype.
The same is true for starvation.

Those are, of course, not dysfunctional rules - just rules being read too literally.

Slightly off topic, but in Draconomicon there's a feat called "Improved Maneuverability" which does exactly the same thing as "Improved Flight" from Complete Adventurer, only with tougher prerequisites. Nothing about either feat indicates that one is ever not available to a character so it must use the other, so really I don't know what the authors of Draconomicon were thinking. If the feat was intended as a nerf to Improved Flight, why would it have a different name?

That would make far too much sense. People will never die from nonlethal damage, nor does it make it easier to kill them. I've found that most groups either have a point where nonlethal starts becoming real damage, or that a certain amount of nonlethal kills you, but there's nothing in the rulebooks about it. You punch someone into a coma that lasts their entire life, expose them to the elements, and refuse to feed them, but they won't die until they pass old age.

Actually taking some non-lethal damage usually reduces the chance of dying since it increases the difference between being unconscious and dead. CDGs and AoEs not withstanding of course.

Slightly off topic, but in Draconomicon there's a feat called "Improved Maneuverability" which does exactly the same thing as "Improved Flight" from Complete Adventurer, only with tougher prerequisites. Nothing about either feat indicates that one is ever not available to a character so it must use the other, so really I don't know what the authors of Draconomicon were thinking. If the feat was intended as a nerf to Improved Flight, why would it have a different name?

Perhaps it was intended as a way to increase maneuverability by two steps?

EDIT:Nope.

Last edited by The Random NPC; 2012-08-12 at 08:02 AM.

See when a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, you can bet we've bought the vinyl.
-Snow White

Not quite on topic, but I'd like to kick the writers of the Fleshwarper prestige class in Lords of Madness....the class requires the Graft Flesh feat, which has a prerequisite of Heal 10 ranks...and the class itself requires Heal 4 ranks. That's just insulting, man. "Oh, man, That means I already qualify for --" (flips to Page 216) GUT-PUNCH!. Gaaah.

Not quite on topic, but I'd like to kick the writers of the Fleshwarper prestige class in Lords of Madness....the class requires the Graft Flesh feat, which has a prerequisite of Heal 10 ranks...and the class itself requires Heal 4 ranks. That's just insulting, man. "Oh, man, That means I already qualify for --" (flips to Page 216) GUT-PUNCH!. Gaaah.

Maybe that's a hint you should get the feat without meeting prerequisites

Don't worry, it's not actually possible to die in the desert due to heat. You'll fall unconscious and keep accumulating nonlethal damage, but there's not a RAW way for it to kill you. This is also true for Starvation.

Yeah, nonlethal damage is borked across the board.

Erm.. Not to poke any holes in anything. But really?

Here, from the D&D glossary from Wizard of the Coast.

Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once rendered unconscious through the accumulation of nonlethal damage, the character begins to take lethal damage at the same rate.

I am pretty sure that means this is RAW? Or will it have to be printed in the Players handbook or such to be considered RAW?

Furthermore:

In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a -4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period).

I would say it is very, very possible to die in a desert due to heat, by the looks of it.