Unethical Practices

In the light of current sexual scandals arising at Zen Buddhist practice places, people are asking an important question: How can some accomplished Zen Buddhist teachers engage in unethical practices, including, but not limited to, sexual misconduct, when most people, non-practitioners, practitioners, and most Zen Buddhist teachers would not engage in them?

The simplest causes of sexual misconduct are loneliness (especially single people), unhappiness, bad marriages, unfulfilling personal relationships, and, thinking that you can get away with it. The three poisons are also causes: greed ( I want it, disregarding the other person), hatred (or aversion, discontent with your present situation), or delusion (thinking that the enlightened being (yourself) is above the karmic consequences of your behavior. The list could go on and on.

We need to remember, however, that awakening is not a permanent event, that all of us, even those who have deeply awakened to our true nature and the nature of our relationship to the rest of the universe can fall into delusion in an instant and act badly, causing harm to ourselves and others. We also have to remember that we are all human beings and are all susceptible to human failings. These are the simple answers to the above question.

The more complex answer lies in an issue that has been a part of Zen Buddhism since its beginnings. The best modern exploration of this issue occurs in Robert Aitken‘s book, The Mind of Clover: Essays in Zen Buddhist Ethics. In the first essay, “The Nature of the Precepts,” Aitken discusses a famous interchange between the Samurai warrior Musashi Miyamoto and the Zen Master Takuan. Miyamoto asks Takuan how to conduct himself in battle. Takuan replies:

The uplifted sword has no will of its own, it is all of emptiness. It is like a flash of lightning.
The man who is about to be struck down is also of emptiness, as is the one who wields the
sword. . . .

Do not get your mind stopped with the sword you raise; forget about what you are doing, and
strike the enemy. Do not keep your mind on the person before you. They are all of emptiness,
but beware of your mind being caught in emptiness.

Well, even though Takuan says don’t be “caught in emptiness,” he recommends that Miyamoto do so, dwell in the absolute, forget about the relative, and then you are blameless. But what about the first Pure Precept: “A follower of the Way does no harm.” And what about the Prohibitory Precept on killing: “A follower of the Way does not kill but rather cultivates and encourages life.” Takuan has gone a little off by ignoring these.

Robert Aitken comments on Takuan’s statement thusly:

The Devil quotes scripture, and Mara, the incarnation of ignorance, can quote the Abhidharma. The fallacy of the Way of the Samurai is similar to the fallacy of the Code of the Crusader. Both distort what should be a universal view into an argument for partisan warfare. The Catholic charity of the Holy See did not include people it called pagans. The vow of Takuan Zenji to save all beings did not encompass the one he calls the enemy.

Later on in his book, in the chapter on the precept against killing, Aitken re-examines Takuan’s statement:

The Buddha-nature view is summed up in the Heart Sutra. “There is no old age and death, and also no ending of old age and death.” It is important to see into this passage clearly. The first point is that in the world of nirvana, the real world of empty infinity, there is nothing to be called death. From this point of view, Takuan Zenji is right: there is no one killing, no killing, and no one to be killed. The peace of infinite emptiness pervades the universe.

. . . If there is no sword, no swing of the sword, no decapitation, then what about all the blood?
What about the wails of the widow and children? the absolute position, when isolated, omits
human details completely. Doctrines, including Buddhism, are meant to be used. Beware of
them taking life of their own, for then they use us. Nirvana, the purity and clarity of the void, is
the name we give to the total peace one experiences in deepest realization. But that is the same
sea that we experience rising and falling in samsara, the relative world of coming and going.
We cannot abstract depth from surface, nor surface from depth. Killing, even in an exalted state
of mind, cannot be separated from suffering.

Nor can stealing, lying, cheating, improper sexual conduct, or any of the other unethical behaviors covered by the Sixteen Bodhisattva Precepts. We have to remember that one’s beliefs, title, or spiritual status do not make one a good person. One’s behavior does. And negative behavior, that which causes suffering, is negative behavior, no matter who commits it, and we reap the consequences of negative behavior.

One of the earliest examples of how we can go off if we only dwell in the absolute and neglect the relative and the precepts occurs in a Zen Buddhist text called Dialogue on the Contemplation Extinguished. The text is sometimes attributed to Bodhidharma, but there is no historical evidence of this. The dialogue is between a master called “Attainment” and his disciple called “Gateway” and is a brilliant exploration of the absolute side of existence. However, the following passage was pointed out to us and examined by my master, Dainin Katagiri, when his disciples studied the text (trans. by Gishin Tokiwa) with him many years ago:

Part VI

1. Gateway asks, “Does the Way lie only in the spiritual body? Or does it also lie in grass and trees?”

Attainment says, “The Way has no place where it does not pervade.”

2. Asked, ” If the Way is so pervasive, why is it that to kill a man is criminal whereas to kill grass and trees is not criminal?’

Answered, “to speak of crime and non-crime follows the discriminative mind, and is based on particularity; neither is the right Way. Only because men [and women] of the world, not having attained the Way, falsely set up their own [and other] selves, is killing intentional. The intention bears fruit of karman. Hence the speaking of crimes.

Grass and trees, having no discriminative mind, originally accord with the Way. Since they are free from ego-centeredness, their killer engages in no calculation. Hence no arguing about crime or non-crime.

Now the one who is free from ego-centeredness, who thus accords with the Way, looks at his body as at grass or a tree, and suffers the cutting of his body with a sword as trees in a forest do. Therefore, Manjusri’s grasping a sword against Gautama [Buddha] and Angulimalya’s holding a dagger against Sakyamuni are all in accord with the Way. Both attain the No- origination, and completely realize the mirage-like transformation of what are hollow and vacant in their identity. That is why there is no arguing about either a crime or a non-crime.”

However, as Robert Aitken has said, “What about the blood? What about the wails of the widow and children?”

Whenever we try to justify our behavior by citing the absolute and deluding ourselves by thinking that we can abide there and ignore the relative, we go off, as Zen Buddhist teachers do when they ignore the precepts, which are meant to guide us as we make our way in the relative world, and engage in unethical practices.

The law of cause and effect governs all our actions. No one can escape it, even the Zen Buddhist master who foolishly thinks that he or she is beyond it. In more recent Zen Buddhist literature, the Wild Fox koan speaks to this issue:

Every day when Zen master Baizhang spoke in the hall, there was an old man who would attend along with the assembly. One day when the congregation had departed, the old man remained.

Baizhang asked him, “Who are you?”

The old man said, “I’m not a person. Formerly, during the age of Kasyapa Buddha, I was the abbot of a monastery on this mountain. At that time a student asked me. ‘Does a great adept fall into cause and effect or not?’ I answered, saying, ‘A great adept does not fall into cause and effect.’ Thereafter, for five hundred lifetimes I’ve been reborn in the body of a fox. Now I ask that the master say a turning phrase in my behalf, so that I can shed the fox’s body.”

Baizhang said, “Ask the question.”

The old man said, “Does a great adept fall into cause and effect or not?”

Baizhang said, “A great adept is not blind to cause and effect.”

Upon hearing these words, the old man experienced unsurpassed enlightenment. He then said, “Now I have shed the body of a fox. I lived behind the mountain. Please provide funeral services for a monk who has died.

When Zen Buddhist masters ignore the law of cause and effect and fail to live ethically according to the precepts, they have manifested into negative actions. They then create suffering not only for themselves but also for others, for as I mentioned earlier, “karma” means “action.” The law of karma is: positive actions have positive results, negative actions have negative results, neutral actions have neutral results. No one is above this law, no matter how long one has practiced or how deep their understanding.

About Nonin Chowaney

Rev. Nonin Chowaney, an American Zen Master, is a Buddhist priest trained in the Soto tradition of Zen Master Dogen. Nonin was ordained by Rev. Dainin Katagiri in Minnesota and has studied at Tassajara Zen Monastery in California and in Japan at Zuio-ji and Shogo-ji Monasteries. He received formal Dharma Transmission from Rev. Katagiri and has been certified to teach by him and by the Soto Zen Church in Japan.
Nonin lives in Omaha, Nebraska, where he is Abbot of Nebraska Zen Center / Heartland Temple. He is a regular speaker at many schools, colleges, and universities and leads Zen Buddhist retreats and workshops throughout the United States.
Nonin is also an accomplished brush calligrapher. He learned the art while training in Japan and has been practicing it for many years. His work hangs in homes and Zen Temples throughout the world.

232 comments

Does that really say what I think it says? A prime cause for sexual misconduct is loneliness? I am flabbergasted. It’s like saying a prime cause for corruption is working in a bank. I’m sure people who commit these deeds feel lonely, but to say that causes it seems way, way off the mark.

The start of your article is ridiculous!
“The simplest causes of sexual misconduct are loneliness (especially single people), unhappiness, bad marriages, unfulfilling personal relationships”. If that is so, please tell me why millions of lonely people manage to not harm others and quite a few Zen Masters did not mange this? This is bullshit. “loneliness (especially single people), unhappiness, bad marriages, unfulfilling personal relationships” has nothing at all to do with the sudden touching of strangers genitals (which is exactly what we are talking about here). The only reason for for indulging your personal sexual desires to the detriment of another person is that you either can’t see the harm you are doing or you simply just don’t care.

Really? So you don’t see that loneliness, unhappiness, bad marriages or unfulfilling personal relationships can drive people to act inappropriately? Where have you been? Also, we are not talking about touching a stranger’s genitals here, at least I’m not. I’m talking about all sexual misconduct, which can have a variety of causes, one of which is endemic in Zen Buddhism, dwelling in the absolute and discounting the negative effects of our behavior in the relative world. This is what Robert Aitken was talking about in the quotations that I presented.

OK, if you are not talking about what everyone on this website has been talking about for months, then please explain: what exactly is it that you are talking about? Please give me some concrete examples – there is little value in talking about abstract concepts while avoiding to talk about that which has actually happened.

Or, if you mean I misunderstood you: What kind of “sexual misconduct” is caused by loneliness? If you are not talking about groping then what do you mean by “inappropriate”? Please elucidate.

Nonin – maybe YOU should drop YOUR tired and deluded views – I think most people on the internet are pretty sick of hearing them. Many people cite you as reasons they left e-sangha and ZFI… Dave Chadwick wrote in his book many, many years ago about your anger issues, which are still clearly manifest here on the internet today…

“The more complex answer lies in … how we can go off if we only dwell in the absolute and neglect the relative” – Nonin Chowaney

I doubt many people actually believe this explanation. If this were true it would mean that “the absolute” is dukkha. Or maybe I misunderstand and you’re referring to Absolut vodka. That would make sense.

The truth is that modernity is catching up with Zen and we are seeing that Zen masters are just ordinary people. God is dead, and it’s time to put things in perspective to avoid further frustration and embarrassment. The Zen master model just doesn’t work anymore. That doesn’t mean people can’t continue the practice without Zen masters.

If you don’t understand what is meant by absolute and relative or what it means to dwell in one or the other or how to neglect one or the other means not dwelling in suchness, you won’t understand how the mistakes propagated in the “The Dialogue on the Contemplation Extinguished” still remain a potent force in Zen Buddhism and how they apply to sexual misconduct by Zen Buddhist practitioners. Things are not as simple as you try to make them.

Nevermind said:
“I doubt many people actually believe this explanation. If this were true it would mean that “the absolute” is dukkha. Or maybe I misunderstand and you’re referring to Absolut vodka. That would make sense.

Well, according to the Two Truth’s doctrine, Heart Sutra, Nagarjuna and the Prajna-Paramita Literature… Yeah, samsara is nirvana… Nirvana is samsara…

Look at me, coming to the defense for the man who needs none… You make friends wherever you go Nonin. :3

Anyone who thinks he “is dwelling in the absolute” while acting out an irresistible urge to touch womens genitals who just so happen to sit right across him is clearly very much deluded.

“Dwelling in the absolute”, as you like to call it, a sexual attraction is just that, nothing more. The moment you ask or force someone to pleasure your own genital, you are very clearly in the relative mind of pleasure and pain. The problem here were not people who “dwelled in the absolute and neglected the relative”, but that likely they had a clearly erroneous belief that they were “dwelling in the absolute” while being very firmly stuck in the relative world of desires.

Yes, I agree with what you say. Negative actions that one excuses by saying, “There is no me or no you,” as Takuan tried to do when talking to the samurai warrior show that person to be severely deluded, for the person neglected the negative consequences of his or her actions and forgot that the law of karma is that negative actions have negative results, both for the victim and the perpetrator.

It’s the Cult of the Victim. The Catholics have real victims: hundreds, thousands of children. Now adults in Zen have decided that as adults they made decisions that they regret with another adult’s advances. Many didn’t say “No” and make the decision to leave, instead they remained in a Superior/Inferior position with another opportunist, even predatory adult. Can’t adults who presumably have some training in Zen, take responsibility for their mistakes and move on? There’s always therapy, new horizons of experience and learning ahead.

It’s the cult of the religious institution – in this case the cult of the arrogant and self-righteous ordained members of Rinzai-ji and hypnotized followers of the Old Fox, Sasaki Roshi. They cling so tightly to Tathagata Zen and their belief that all other Zen teachings are crap. One wonders why these folks bought (and continue to buy) into guru worship hook, line, and sinker, and defended (and defend) the in-defensible. I’ve sat across from Sasaki in Sanzen and dealt with his “disciples” at their holy temples of non-attachment – the hypocrisy of both is a teaching in seeing through all forms of self-clinging and self-aggrandizement.

I think ‘moving on’ is exactly what people like Charlotte Shane have done. But she also writes about the way things that happened in the seventies caught up with her many years later. This misconduct happens to people in a vulnerable position. Like inji’s when their enlightened zen masters are 40 years their senior. And I think the community should look at those teachers and what they represent. If they themselves cannot practice what they preach, that should be questioned.

It is a simultaneous pleasure and sorrow to think that there are venues that pay little or no heed to “emptiness” and “swords” and seeing deeply into something referred to as “true nature,” where “we” and “us” and “our” are set aside and the stink of Zen finds a dubious footing at best. Such venues include, among others, the court system.

It is a sorrow because I have no doubt that there is some basis for such verbiage, though of course the source might rightfully be investigated.

But it is a pleasure because such venues — however narrow their vistas — enshrine a principle that I think is central to Zen as well. That principle is: Cut the crap! Yes indeed, a murderer can be a very fine person, deeply spiritual, compassionate in all other regards; Zen can be an exalted practice, etc. … but then there is the small matter of the murder itself.

The case of Eido Shimano is instructive in this regard. For decades, any number of people compiled heart-felt and finely-honed and psychologically-acute briefs in an attempt to get Shimano or Zen Studies Society or someone to address mounting allegations of sexual and financial impropriety. None of those attempts worked. Shimano made no admissions and his willingness to offer contrition or remorse to specific people specifically harmed was evasive when offered and non-existent otherwise.

All claims and counterclaims were filed in the Supreme Court of the State of New York (County of New York).

It is not clear at the moment if anyone will live long enough to see this case adjudicated. The Shimanos, in their suit, asked for a jury trial, but the likelihood that it will come to that is unclear. There are many bureaucratic highways and byways to travel, perhaps taking as long as two to three years.

But in neither suit is there any confused or confusing rhetoric. The situations are specified and narrow and the alleged harm is depicted. There is no “deep meaning” or “wondrous Nirvana” or “sparkling compassion” or “vast emptiness.” There is no charming psychobabble either.

About as close as either suit comes to the humanity and horrors of the decades of Shimano activities is spelled out in the amended answers filed by ZSS. There, the argument is based in part on the principle of the “faithless servant” — the servant who fails to perform as promised. (http://robertfitzpatrick.blogspot.com/2010/03/faithless-servant-doctrine.html) But the doctrine has been extended to include not only the ‘servants’ but also what might be called their ‘masters,’ as for example in Feiger v. Iral Jewelry, Ltd. where the doctrine was described like this:

“One who owes a duty of fidelity to a principal and who is faithless in the performance of his services is generally disentitled to recover his compensation, whether commissions or salary . . . Nor does it make any difference that the services were beneficial to the principal, or that the principal suffered no provable damage as a result of the breach of fidelity by the agent.”

Neither complainant nor respondent in the Shimano case references the vast wisdom of Zen. Both rewrite the wisdom of something a shrink friend said to me years ago: “When a man punches you in the stomach, you don’t ask if he lives in a rat-infested apartment.” In the Shimano case, perhaps the line could be, “When a man punches you in the stomach, you don’t ask if he has read the Tripitaka or the Mumonkan or the Shobogenzo … or whether he has passed through the entire litany of formal koans or has been viewed as vastly compassionate and deeply enlightened.”

The court case, whatever its outcome, provides the only credible venue in which to cut the crap that has been ineffectively draped around the Shimano situation for decades. No more wise nostrums. No more psychobabble. No more well-camouflaged self-interest. There may be wider ramifications to whatever judgment is rendered in the case, but the court offers a place to put first things first: Who was injured; how were they injured; why were they injured and what penalty is appropriate for inflicting such injuries.

What you have posted bears no relation to what I have written above, so it is is not a comment on my article. If what I have said is too nuanced for you, then don’t comment. If you need a soapbox to post what you need to post about Eido Shimano, please do so elsewhere.

What Adam Fisher wrote above has a lot to do with the matter you discussed, and it is very important. These men did not just “engage in unethical practices, including, but not limited to, sexual misconduct” as you euphemistically write. If what has been reported is true, both man have commited sexual assault and possibly even rape. This is not complicated. A crime is not just “misconduct”. And it is sad and shocking to see that this matter seems very straightforward and clear to outsiders, but to some/many Zen teachers and/or students it does seem to be awfully ambiguous and complicated.
Finally, Nonin, don’t be so horribly condescending. You are not the one who gets to decide who gets to comment here or not. Maybe you could instead try to understand what the guy wanted to tell you?

These men engaged in sexual misconduct, an unethical practice according to the Sixteen Bodhisattva Precepts. Some of their misconduct was not only illegal but also unconscionable. Rather than blame me and other Zen Buddhist teachers for your inability to understand that pretty much every Zen Buddhist teacher these days, except the very, very few who still regard their misconduct as “okay,” regards such misconduct as reprehensible, please accept your own lack of understanding of our positions on these issues. There is nothing ambiguous in my article, for I made very clear that negative karma breeds negative results and that no matter what the cause of the karma nothing excuses such negative action, for it causes nothing but suffering.

People can post any comment here that they wish. Adam Fisher’s comment comment had nothing to do with my article, and if you can’t see that, you have a problem.

It was not an insult; I was merely pointing out to you that you have misread what you are commenting on in the most compassionate way possible by stating that the problem is yours and yours alone. Please own it.

I think you are right that the post might have been better placed as a comment under ‘Further Developments of the ZSS Lawsuit’. But the title of your article invites a range of perspectives, including secular, legal, and humanitarian, all of which are in Adam’s comment. Likewise his admonition: “Cut the crap!” really goes to the heart of the undeservedly exalted discussion of the relative vs. the Absolute, samsara vs. nirvana, etc.: the general stink of Zen, which, I might add, you seem very well acquainted with.

As for your reply that the commenter is too stupid to understand your nuanced sophistication, and has no business exercising his free speech in reply to your article, Mr. Nonin: why don’t you just go f*ck yourself? Relatively and absolutely.

I think a good (expensive) lawyer could make the “dwelling in the absolute defense” work. Look at the Dan White case and the “twinkie defense.” White didn’t get off scot free but was only convicted of voluntary manslaughter. He apparently suffered ‘diminished capacity’ and was incapable of premeditation, which is a requirement for a murder conviction.

The problem with the “dwelling in the absolute defense” in a court of law is that it may be too nuanced and complex for ordinary people to understand. Twinkies are simple.

The good Reverend and some of Katagiri’s other Dharma Heirs on this site have neglected to mention that Katagiri was also a serial sexual predator of his female students and apparently those who have spoken up, such as the writer Natalie Goldberg, have not been treated kindly. What about this?

No, Katagiri-roshi wasn’t a serial sexual predator. He had a sexual relationship with one student, and that didn’t come out until quite a while after he was dead. The Minneapolis sangha dealt with that in positive ways. I had no connection with the sangha at that time, for I had long before set up in Omaha. However, I am aware of what actually happened, zafrogzen, so I have little respect for people who spread falsity on the internet under a pseudonym, as you have just done.

Perhaps I am mistaken — if so I sincerely apologize, but the impression I got, not so long after Katagiri died, from a close lady friend involved with the San Francisco Zen Center, who was very upset by it, was that he was having affairs with some of his female students (plural). I heard later that Natalie Goldberg was ostracized for making something of it.

If it’s any consolation, I’ve noticed some pretty good zen teachers have come from “Masters” who were flawed human beings.

I sat with Katagiri a few times when he was on the West Coast in the early days and respected his commitment to the practice. I did not know him well personally, so because I’m repeating second-hand hearsay, I am probably guilty of breaking the precept against gossip. As not even an official lay practitioner, I hope I can avoid being condemned to one of the major Buddhist hell worlds.

I’m really (happily) just a nobody, and my pseudonym probably has more meaning than my real name, which is Stephen Wiltse. Other that being a lifelong lover of zazen, I’m pretty much of an outsider in the official zen world — if that helps assuage your righteousness. If you’d like photos and a brief bio I’d be happy to oblige.

Maybe someone else has some input on this matter that would help clear up this misunderstanding.

Thank you for your kind reply. You said “. . . the impression I got, not so long after Katagiri died, from a close lady friend involved with the San Francisco Zen Center, who was very upset by it, was that he was having affairs with some of his female students (plural). I heard later that Natalie Goldberg was ostracized for making something of it.”

Don’t believe everything you hear. There always are a bunch of rumors floating around about prominent people, and Katagiri-roshi was certainly prominent in the Western Zen world. Katagiri-roshi was not having affairs with “some” of his students. Only one that anyone knows about, and in my view, that was a huge mistake, inappropriate behavior on his part. It was a while after he died that the details came out.

I know nothing about the supposed “ostracism” of Natalie Goldberg, and a couple of others who were part of Minnesota Zen Center at the time have told me that an “ostracism” didn’t happen. Natalie had long before left Zen Center and was living in the Southwest. However, I know that many people were not happy with some of the things that Natalie wrote.

I read part of Natalie’s book, but not all of it. I found that the book was about Natalie, Not about the two men prominent in it — Katagirii-roshi and Natalie’s father. The Katagiri-roshi she described was certainly not the Katagiri-roshi I know, so I never finished the book.

Surely wisdom and compassion are the fruit of practice, a natural consequence of realization. When a Zen master knows that he is causing suffering, where is his compassion? When he doesn’t know he is causing suffering, where is is his wisdom? The absence of either says he has lost his way, and to follow him is dangerous. On some level, he must be suffering too, but to even think about how that suffering might be relieved is way above my pay grade.

Yes, the absence of wisdom and compassion means that he or she has lost his or her way, and, yes, to follow that person while he or she is still lost can be very dangerous, for we will be led down a destructive path. However, we all slip off the path at one time or another, and when I do, I try to get back on as soon as possible. And yes, everyone suffers as the result of negative karma (action), the perpetrator included. When a teacher goes off, it’s up to his or her students or good friends to point it out and help the person get back on. This in itself is the first step in relieving that person’s suffering.

In the spirit of helping a fellow “get back on,” I would recommend that in the future better judgement be used when publishing articles. An article like this would no doubt be applauded for it’s deep insight and wisdom on a site like Zen Forum International, where there is a well pruned audience.

There are some people who read Sweeping Zen and people who participate at Zen Forum who are serious Zen Buddhist practitioners or at least very interested in Zen Buddhist practice, and there are some in both places who just like to talk about it. If you don’t understand or can’t relate to what I’ve written, that’s not my problem.

I can see that all you men (and this includes you, Norman Fischer) are going to spend a lot of time bloviating about what the problem is and finger-pointing at other men while the women just walk away as fast as they can from all your Zen sanghas.

Women are not walking away from our sangha, nor are they walking away from the 95% of Zen Buddhist sanghas where the teachers, male and female, are not and have not engaged in sexual misconduct. In fact, in most sanghas in the West participants are usually split fairly equally between males and females. Also, teachers are split fairly equally between males and females, or at least closely split.

I was surprised to see Nonin Chowaney’s assertions that: 1) Dainin Katagiri Roshi only “had a sexual relationship with one student”; and 2) that after this relationship became public knowledge, the Minnesota Zen Meditation Center and community dealt with it “in a positive way.” To the best of my knowledge, neither are true.

A little background on why I write. I was among the handful of people who brought Katagiri Roshi and his family to Minnesota in 1973, founded MZMC, and developed both the city center and Hokyoji, the country center in southern Minnesota. My practice began with Shunryu Suzuki Roshi in 1964 and has continued ever since. I worked closely with Katagiri Roshi as student and supporter of MZMC until the mid-1980’s, when I had small children to raise and concerns about the increasing focus on Japanese ceremony, tradition, and lineage (see my memoir Nothing on My Mind; and Go Deep and Take Plenty of Root, forthcoming).

Katagiri Roshi died in 1990. The first scandal to break, this around 1992, involved accusations of inappropriate sexual behavior with students by some of Katagiri’s dharma heirs. MZMC brought in Marilyn Peterson Armour (see At Personal Risk: Boundary Violations in Professional Client Relationships), an expert consultant on such issues, and in 1994 asked Shohaku Okumura to lead the organization, hoping that he could offer direction in a very unstable and divisive situation.

Early in Okumura’s tenure Katagiri Roshi’s inappropriate behavior surfaced. This became a time of even greater uncertainty and difficulty—financial instability, further danger of lawsuits, and, of course, much suffering, self-doubt, and soul-searching within a community that, unfortunately, became further divided against itself. When Okumura decided to move on (a number of us begged him to stay), I rejoined the Board of Directors.

Throughout this period, I did not myself witness issues being dealt with positively, as Chowaney asserts. I saw little commitment to get to the bottom of what had happened and why. Truths must be told before reconciliations can occur. Unfortunately, truths were, and probably still are, being hidden.

Sometime in the late 1990’s, Natalie Goldberg told us she had decided to write a book that would complete (and, sadly, cast shadows over) the ideal portrait she had created of Katagiri Roshi in her earlier works. She, my wife Tamara Kaiser (see her relevant essay in “Let’s Talk” in the current Buddhadharma (thebuddhadharma.com), and I began to compare notes, talk to community members (and a number who had left the community), and do some research in an attempt to understand how we and many others had been so blindsided by these eruptions of scandal.

In that work, contrary to Chowaney’s assertion, we learned of Katagiri Roshi’s inappropriate sexual behavior with a number of women. And when Natalie arranged a meeting of Katagiri’s long-term students at Tamara’s and my house to alert them to her forthcoming publication of The Great Failure, the general tenor of the evening was that she, Natalie, was the problem. She was doing something wrong in going public.

The widespread availability of information on the internet has led the New York Times, among other publications, to look into the Shimano and Sasaki situations. I suspect much more will follow. It is shameful that many in Zen communities have been willing to overlook, defend, and even support the behavior of perpetrators—and attack those who speak up.

Evasions and denials will hinder the American Zen community in taking responsibility for those who have been harmed—and in finding a responsible way forward.

Erik Fraser Storlie, PhD, faculty member teaching meditation and mindfulness, Center for Spirituality and Healing, University of Minnesota

Thank you for your work describing Lineage Delusions and your wife’s work. I especially appreciated her comment, “Some in the American Buddhist community compare their current dilemma to that of the therapeutic community in the 1970s, a time when therapists came to recognize problems of abuse and worked to develop effective means to address them. They suggest that Buddhist communities will need years, if not decades, to establish clear ethical principles and processes by which to protect members and hold teachers accountable.” I hope it doesn’t take so long, but truthfully it probably will; the American Zen Teachers Association has so far shown no stomach to become the kind of national cross-lineage organization that could fulfill this role. Also I very much appreciated your comments on Katagiri Roshi’s history, which matches what I have been told by others who were close to him.

Overall I liked Nonin’s article, but found it a bit hypocritical given that Nonin was one of my strongest critics when I felt ZSS wasn’t doing enough to distance itself from Eido Shimano or offering enough support to those previously alienated or harmed by the practice there. I was also disturbed by his comment that he stopped reading Natalie’s book when, “The Katagiri-roshi she described was certainly not the Katagiri-roshi I know”. It is just this kind of head in the sand stance that I have come to recognize in myself when in the past I spoke supportively of Eido Shimano and thought sincerely but foolishly that he had reformed his ways.

Genjo, you have quoted me incorrectly. I said that I stopped reading Natalie’s book when I realized that it was all about her and not about Katatiri-roshi as I knew him and observed him in the five years I practiced nearly daily at Minnesota Zen Center. I knew Natalie pretty well at the time and her book was about herself, not about Katagiri-roshi. Many others would say the same.

So, my head was not in the sand, nor is it now, no matter how much you’d like it to have been, or to be, so that you could not only believe the unsubstantiated rumors about Katagiri-roshi’s sexual behavior but also support your overall political agenda by saying, ‘see he did a bunch of it, too.’ We need to start an organization that will put a stop to all this.”

As I stated above, there is no evidence that Katagiri-roshi had sexual encounters with more than one female student. During the meetings facilitated by Marilyn Peterson Armour shortly after the scandal broke no evidence arose of other sexual encounters. Some time ago, I spoke with the person who headed the sangha group that dealt with the fallout after the scandal broke. She told me that there were rumors about encounters with other students but that they were never substantiated.

Katagiri-roshi made a serious and regrettable mistake with one student, and that has been known for years. He was dead for two years before that originally came out, and he’s now been dead for over 20 years. The whole sorry incident was fully aired long ago, so how about letting it and him lie.

You said that in the course of doing your own research into the scandal surrounding Katagiri-roshi’s sexual encounters with one of his female students, you and Tamara Kaiser “. . . learned of Katagiri Roshi’s inappropriate sexual behavior with a number of women.”

There is no evidence that Katagiri-roshi had sexual encounters with more than one female student. During the meetings facilitated by Marilyn Peterson Armour shortly after the scandal broke no evidence arose of other sexual encounters. Some time ago, I spoke with the person who headed the sangha group that dealt with the fallout after the scandal broke. She told me that there were rumors about encounters with other students but that they were never substantiated.

Actually Erik, Nonin is correct. There is only one substantiated occurrence of sexual impropriety. I too was sad to see Natalie spreading rumors in her book, but was not surprised, because in previous books, I was present when she described situations that I was present at and remember differently.

You should know, as a writer yourself, that we can get carried away with our recollections. T

Imo, the pretense of “dwelling in the Absolute” or “dwelling in emptiness” is in reality merely another indication that one is dwelling in concepts (and misunderstood ones at that). In fact, most so-called “spiritual” practices are simply a matter of dwelling in various conditional and conditioned concepts, regardless of any arbitrary name (such as Zen, yoga, or contemplative life) that one may superimpose on them.

Moreover, the “Absolute” is not a place or state where one might park their attention while chopping off heads, nor is emptiness. That’s just more mythology from a conceptual system that depends on such mythology to perpetuate itself. Takuan may have come up with a great pickle, but his successors have been fooling naive westerners ever since Soyen Shaku arrived in America and began running off at the mouth about enlightenment and zen at The World Parliament of Religions in Chicago in 1893.

Religion itself is nothing but a concept, and in the scheme of things, a fairly low-level one at that. Of course, if it works for you, fine. That is, if it helps you to live a life of integrity, eliminating greed, envy, and hatred, then there’s no need for complaint. The problem is, well …. history speaks for itself in that regard.
Hopefully, the fairly relentless cavalcade of scandals that have plagued religious communities everywhere may actually be harbingers of the demise of the traditional Guru (or special Intermediary between human and “Divine”) model of spiritual pursuit, which itself is a concept rife with opportunities for misdirection and harm.

The whole paradigm of the charismatic enlightened master/prophet/priest at the center of the religious institution, dominating by whim and fiat, myth and manipulation, represents a clearly obsolete system, suggesting an infantile level of spiritual adaptation in which the aspirant submits themselves to the local ashram/monastery/temple/church, where a father or mother priest/guru/roshi confirms their disease and requires them to commit for the rest of their life to various sectarian regimes for their own healing and ultimate cure.

We may in fact be at a turning point, or level of communal maturation, in which the student/aspirant will finally grow up and begin taking responsibility for their own spiritual welfare, without childish dependence on borrowed beliefs and cultural accretions, and posers running around in costumes spewing ersatz dharma while reaching for one’s goods.

This does not mean that there is no further need of advanced practitioners who can help to guide newer ones along the path, but more that the days of the unquestioned and omnipotent “master/prophet/parental deity figure” have passed. We shall see.

You obviously have an axe to grind against religion, spirituality, priests, Western Zen Buddhist teachers, authority figures, Asian Zen Buddhist teachers, awakened people, enlightenment, those who wear clothing that you don’t like, ashrams, monasteries, temples, churches, fathers, mothers, priests, gurus, roshis, and who knows what else!! Do us all a favor, then, and stay away from all above so that those us who find value in what you disparage can practice and enjoy them without your polluting the atmosphere with your rants against them.

Those of us who enjoy all of the above having to do with Zen Buddhism and who actually practice it have no fantasies about enlightened Zen Masters. We enjoy the reality of those who have awakened to their true natures and are very thankful to practice with them.

I see a very sad individual in this Nonin Chowaney, someone who evidently has some deep issues with authority (except his own of course). Mr. Nonin’s responses here to people are very telling in that they reveal a very defensive person who seems to be hiding something. His article comes across with the same sort of flavor, that of a fundamentally dissatisfied and very bitter man who is totally dependent on what he considers his position of Authority (wherever that may derive from).

I find people of this stripe to be fundamentally unhappy, disthymic and generally to have hidden aggressive tendencies that they think they can hide from others of lower stature. It is truly pathetic when such individuals assume roles of Authority over others when they are so totally transparent.

Mr. Nonin, I suggest that you refrain from public pronouncements and find some activity that will assist you in dealing with your sublimated anger and aggression. A teacher of compassion you are most definitely not…

I am certainly not taking the advice of an armchair psychologist who doesn’t know me and is merely fond of speculating about the nature and substance of another human being. Rather than doing that and trying to put me down personally, how about if you respond to the substance of what I’ve said here?

I am a Zen Buddhist practitioner and transmitted teacher. I am going to continue both until I die, and I am not going to apologize for functioning as either.

Oh really? Soto Zen Buddhism is alive and well in the West, and all of us practicing it have benefited greatly from it. Comments like yours mean nothing to us, for you obviously know nothing about Soto Zen practice and the insights that manifest from it.

Western Soto Zen is indeed a silly cult – the endless scandals, the total lack of insight by any of its teachers, the silly attempts to “play at being monks” in a non-monastic society all show this for what it is.

I’m sorry if I didn’t respond to your article and couldn’t resist pointing out an issue you apparently would rather forget. Even though your master has been dead for over twenty years you still appear to be glued to him.

In the opinion of this untransmitted, unordained, unsanctioned nobody, the “absolute” is simply our own mind when it is clear and open. In that state it can observe the relative world without attachment. What I think you and the koan are pointing out is that it is delusion to think this frees us of the cause and effect of good and bad actions. It should, however, enable us to act with more wisdom and compassion.

I appreciate your getting down here in the muck and responding to our posts.

This is a nice opinion, zafrogzen, but what is referred to by the “absolute” is not a clear and open mind. A clear and open mind is a clear and open mind. The term that applies to that is “the mind that abides nowhere.”

The phrase “the mind that abides nowhere” is another way of saying “a clear and open mind.

The term “absolute” refers to one aspect of existence. The term “relative” refers to the other aspect of existence. There is no fixed and permanent Steven or any other being. All beings consist of a variety of other beings, with nothing at the core. However, if “Steven,” or as I like to say, “provisional being Steven,” does not exist, I wouldn’t be having this exchange. So, there is a Steven, but he doesn’t exist as a fixed or permanent entity. This Steven is the relative side of existence.

There are no beings in the absolute sense, but there are myriads of beings in the relative sense. This dual nature of all beings is called “things as they are,” or “suchness.” Neither the relative or absolute nature can exist as an object.

Take the hand. It has a front and back. If there were no front or no back, there would be no hand, which is both front and back. Also, we have pictures of the Earth from space. It is one body. However, if we walk the earth, we encounter myriads of beings.

I was just about to the point of feeling some compassion for you over this issue of your late teacher.

My name is not Steven — if you didn’t notice I wrote it was “Stephen” although I usually go by Steve. I actually prefer “Zafrogzen” here on the web if you don’t mind. I am not attached to any of those mental constructs because I do understand what you are saying above, but I don’t think you understood what I said.

Being a “Zen Master” is more than just a confidence game, of ringing your bell and sending folks back to their cushion. It also implies having a clear and open eye (mind) to see not only one’s many selves clearly, but others as well. Then compassion and wisdom (understanding) begins to develop.

While we’re on the subject of names. The taking of another name (always Japanese) in zen, while a symbol of home-leaving and cutting off one’s past, is also a technique used in cult indoctrination. like many things in zen training But the worst cult characteristic is the idealization of a central authority figure, or “Master.” The anger we see here when that idealization is shattered and the denial when it is threatened, are two sides of the same stick. And as in the above that stick is just “our” own mind.

Katagiri was just a mixed up human being like you and I, and not a particularly happy one either. Like Sasaki he had a ton of samadhi power, but his compassion and wisdom still had a ways to go.

Do you always refer to anything you don’t understand as “sophistry?” Your question and the statement before it might seem clever to you, but to me, they’re both just foolish. The need for sexual gratification is a hormonal matter. Do you know what hormones are and how they drive human behavior?

What I know is that someone who does not know how not to act out his hormonally induced urges even if they harm another person should not be a teacher. Such a person instead needs a therapy.

You are ignoring the core point I am trying to make here: An awake mind is not controlled by hormonal urges or desires. In an awake mind the desire “just is”. The desire arises in the embodied mind (what you probably would call the relative). To the awake mind the desire is just a perception. If the person identifies with the desire, and becomes controlled by it, that person, in that moment is firmly back in the relative.

A mind that is controlled by sex is neither “dwelling in the absolute” nor “caught in emptiness”. This is an illusion!

There is nothing wrong with acting out your sexual desires (if no one is harmed), but it is ridiculous to justify this with “abiding in the absolute” or being “caught in emptiness”. Such people are not at all “caught in emptiness”, they are caught in their animal desires (or hormonal urges if you prefer).

As humans, we have a choice to act out our desires or not. People who are not capable of such choice are a danger to others. We all have desires, the difference is most know when they can act on them and when not. This is nothing specially buddhist, it is instead about being responsible, grown-up and civilized.

Where you and I differ is this: Loneliness, hormones and desires are indeed powerful drivers of human behavior. But, as humans, we have a choice to act on these or not. This choice creates responsibility. Abdictating this responsibility is what leads to misconduct, not the desire itself. This practical responsibility is what differentiates the grown-ups from the children, the civilized from the barbarians, the sane from the madmen and upright citizens from the criminals. Your argument, on the other hand ignores this choice and responsibility.

You said, “it is ridiculous to justify this with ‘abiding in the absolute” or being caught in emptiness’”. I have certainly not done this. Please read my article carefully. If you can say that I have, you either haven’t or don’t understand what I wrote.

The rest of what you attribute to me is so antithetical to what I’ve been presenting here that it seems worthless to me to counter it, for you’ve been putting words into my mouth throughout this exchange and show no signs of stopping.

When you say things like, “Your argument, on the other hand ignores this choice and responsibility,” I wonder whose argument you are referring to, certainly not mine. We are all personally responsible for our behavior, and we will all reap the results of our actions (karma). We all choose how to act, and it’s our choice to act positively, negatively, or neutrally. No one can avoid the results of karma, no matter what they have directly realized through Zen Buddhist training.

I am amazed at what you are attributing to me! READ THE ARTICLE CAREFULLY!!!!!!

Lee Love posted this fare below on this comment page. I didn’t want you miss it, so I quote it here:

“Actually Erik, Nonin is correct. There is only one substantiated occurrence of sexual impropriety. I too was sad to see Natalie spreading rumors in her book, but was not surprised, because in previous books, I was present when she described situations that I was present at and remember differently.”

Nonin, this is a reply to Mike Port’s post today. He linked to your article. I thought you might enjoy my response to his article.

Actually, we don’t see “medieval” Buddhist practice here in the West. In Asia, Buddhism is practiced by laymen more like what we find in churches here. Laymen don’t do zazen (there has been some interest piqued, because of what we are doing in the West.) Actually, few Priest in Japan practice Zazen regularly after their initial schooling to get their certification.
I remember, on my first morning in Japan in my aunt and uncle’s house in 1993, coming downstairs to the smell of incense and the sound of the bell and my Aunt’s chanting the heart sutra at the family altar. Until that time, I did not know Soto Zen Buddhism was my family’s tradition. This offering making and chanting before the altar is the most likely practice of lay practitioners in Japan, not zazen in groups.
Our problems with sexual improprieties partially come out of exactly the new “modern” thing we are trying to do: co-ed monastic practice. In Asia, practice situations are segregated by gender. If we realize this, we can take steps to guide our experiment.
One of the big factors here, is that teachers often live in isolation and not surrounded by their peers like they are in Asia. Teachers don’t have “tea grandmothers” and old cooks who can hit them on the head with a broom when they get out of line. Teachers can too easily believe the adoration heaped on them by their students. As our practice develops, we will have more tea grandmothers and old cooks. In the meantime, teachers need to seek the guidance of their peers. Be reminded, that they put their pants on one leg at a time, just like everybody else. And stop thinking we as so “special” in the West. We need not devalue tradition to find our own way.
Speaking of tea grandmothers, my wife Jean was one before her time. One time, when Katagiri Roshi took us upstairs to see his new big bell, just arrived from California, he let us strike it. After hitting the bell, Jean said to him, “Hojosan! You don’t have any good students, but you have a mighty fine bell!”
Hojosan got introspective and after a moment said, “Yes, you are right….”

Nonin,
To get further information on the Dainin Katagiri Roshi sexual scandal and whether there were several women involved, those interested can read Natalie Goldberg’s The Great Failure and reach their own conclusions.
To check one of Natalie’s sources, readers can google Caryl Gopfert’s PhD thesis: Student Experiences of Betrayal in the Zen Buddhist Teacher/Student Relationship (Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, 1999, http://www.hoodiemonks.org/PDFs/19990321_Caryl_Gopfert_PhD.pdf ). See “Jamie, Pulled Off the Pillow,” pp. 119-214.
I don’t know “Jamie” personally, but Natalie interviewed her on this matter, as have others. It would be helpful if “Jamie” would come forward for the record. Here we have evidence of “another” woman. Sadly, this is one of the most disturbing accounts.
At the conclusion of “Lineage Delusions Revisited,” I mention my own shock when in 1980 a member of the community came to me with an extremely disturbing accusation of sexual violation involving Katagiri. The member demanded I do something, and I failed to act. At that moment I was part of the problem, not part of the solution.
None of this would matter very much if there weren’t continuing evasions, denials, and even justifications of sexual abuse in various American Zen (and other Buddhist) communities—and worse, attacks and sometimes threats of lawsuits against those who dare to speak. The only antidote, I believe, is sunlight and transparency—encompassing both old history and ongoing abuses. Individuals should be encouraged to speak—and it should be safe to speak.
Erik Fraser Storlie, PhD, faculty member teaching meditation and mindfulness, Center for Spirituality and Healing, University of Minnesota

Thank you for your honest and transparent info on Dainin Katagiri, Erik.
This is what is really helpful in bringing out the truth instead of Nonin tirelessly and hopelessly defending Katagiri who gave him some authorization (for whatever reason – his ‘impeccable dharmic speech’ and ‘deep insight’ on this page really makes you guess). This does not serve anyone but of course only Nonin himself; he has his ‘pure lineage’ to defend. A very sad thing…
So thank you again for your research and information on this.

Here’s a quote from Lee Love, who posted a message well below on this comment page. I didn’t want anyone to miss it, so I’m posting it here:

“Actually Erik, Nonin is correct. There is only one substantiated occurrence of sexual impropriety. I too was sad to see Natalie spreading rumors in her book, but was not surprised, because in previous books, I was present when she described situations that I was present at and remember differently.”

The section in Natalie Goldberg’s book is not credible, nor are the rumors circulated during a meeting in your house many years ago. As far as I know “Jamie” might have been a figment of Natalie’s imagination. I reiterate:

“There is no evidence that Katagiri-roshi had sexual encounters with more than one female student. During the meetings facilitated by Marilyn Peterson Armour shortly after the scandal broke no evidence arose of other sexual encounters. Some time ago, I spoke with the person who headed the sangha group that dealt with the fallout after the scandal broke. She told me that there were rumors about encounters with other students but that they were never substantiated.”

Rumors are not credible evidence, and at this point, the only credible evidence that we have is that Katagiri-roshi had an affair with one female student. There is no credible evidence that he had an affair with anyone else. He may have, but I certainly don’t know, and neither do you.

Here’s a quote from Lee Love. It post far down below in these messages. In cased everyone missed it, I’m posting it here:

“Actually Erik, Nonin is correct. There is only one substantiated occurrence of sexual impropriety. I too was sad to see Natalie spreading rumors in her book, but was not surprised, because in previous books, I was present when she described situations that I was present at and remember differently.”

Thanks for the link. What is reported there is indeed disturbing. I would not have imagined that it would be so bad. So one of these unnamed Roshis would apparently give out the authority to teach Zen in return for sexual favors? Quite unbelievable.

Thank you for writing about one of the major flaws of Zen Buddhism that allows Zen teachers to rationalize behaviour that no normal person would accept. Though your conclusion, essentially saying that teachers like Sasaki, Shimano & Co. were wrong because “negative actions have negative results” isn’t exactly revolutionary. If the answer is so simple, how come everybody else was fooled for so long?

I have to conclude, especially since you published essentially the same essay after the Shimano scandal broke (“Breaking The Precepts”), that you are trying to minimalise a lot of serious structural problems with Zen into a simple case of otherwise honest teachers misunderstanding a subtle teaching and giving in to “loneliness”. At best, this your essay might explain the behaviour of a relatively minor case – like say your teacher Mr. Katagiri. But for absolute train wrecks like the Zen Studies Society, Rinzaiji or Mumon-Kai, some of the staunchest pillars of “authentic” Zen practice in the west for decades, it is in my opinion useless.

I did not write about “one of the major flaws of Zen Buddhism,” for there are no “major flaws,” only in your own mind. I wrote about how those who have experienced the absolute nature of existence may get stuck in emptiness and function from an incomplete understanding of positive and proper human behavior. Fortunately, most practitioners don’t exhibit this behavior, for they “return to the marketplace with bliss-bestowing hands.” As the old saying goes, “For those who are stuck in emptiness there is no cure.”

Of course, if one’s only interest is in bashing Zen Buddhism and Zen Buddhist teachers every chance one gets, then anything anyone writes or tries to tell that person will be useless.

It is not a pervasive issue or flaw in Zen Buddhist training. It is a serious flaw in the people who exhibit it. A good teacher will snap a person out of this morass.

Many, many Zen Buddhist practitioners and teachers exhibit bliss-bestowing hands. Where have you been? There are many, many more practitioners and teachers exhibiting bodhisattva and buddha behavior and helping people alleviate suffering than the very few who manifest un-ethical behavior, harm others, and cause more suffering.

This is what I said: “It is not a pervasive issue or flaw in Zen Buddhist training. It is a serious flaw in the people who exhibit it. A good teacher will snap a person out of this morass.”

You then said: “We are talking about teachers. Teachers who have been through all of the training, I would imagine.”

Let me try again: All Zen Buddhist teachers go through rigorous training, including training in following the Sixteen Bodhisattva Precepts, our Ethical Guidelines. Zen Buddhist training is not flawed and has been followed for hundreds of years to fruitful and positive results. Teachers are human beings and no human beings are perfect; all of us are susceptible to human ethical failings. A few specific Zen Buddhist teachers have failed their students and mistreated them, and ignorant people want to blame “Zen Buddhism,” whatever that means to them, and discredit all Zen Buddhist teachers. Such flawed human behavior is the manifestation of ignorance.

A few specific Zen Buddhist teachers have failed their students and mistreated them, and ignorant people want to blame “Zen Buddhism,” whatever that means to them, and discredit all Zen Buddhist teachers.

No one gets stuck in emptiness. What happens is that people might have had a fleeting experience of emptiness, and then they get stuck in the MEMORY of this experience – they just didn’t realize that they are firmly lodged in their habit-mind again.

The goal of the Dharma is the cessation of craving: if the mind is controlled by craving, that is per definition not emptiness.

“Getting stuck in emptiness” means that one ignores the consequences of one’s behavior and is blind to the effects of what they do. People do this, and paraphrasing Robert Aitken: Yes, there is no one killed; infinite peace pervades the dharma world; however, there’s a life ended, and what about the blood and the wails of the widow and children?

And no, there are three poisons that we try to eradicate through practice: greed, hatred, and delusion, or, craving, aversion, and ignorance, whatever translation you’d like to use.

Also, the craving mind is also empty in the absolute sense. The craving, relative mind and the empty absolute mind co-exist in suchness. This is the way things are.

“Getting stuck in emptiness” means that one ignores the consequences of one’s behavior and is blind to the effects of what they do.

What you describe is garden variety nihilism. Something that anyone might fall into occasionally, though it might generally be seen as beginning phase of spiritual life. And it’s not that people are blind to the effects of what they do. They can see the effects. For whatever reason they ignore their responsibilities and indulge their impulses regardless of the cost to others.

I know you’re just doing your job and trying to derive some deep meaning out of the mess. We can see how that worked out. I’m sure someone could pull it off though.

Of course, as a practice, Zen Buddhism’s obvious major flaw in the West is the inability of students to actually do zazen.

Here is how Jack Engler (1986) described Western students’ attempts to meditate: “(They) appear to become fixated on what may be called a psychodynamic level of experience (Brown and Engler, 1980). Their practice continues to be dominated by primary process thinking and ‘unrealistic experience’ (Maupin, 1965), as well as by an increase in fantasy, daydreaming, reverie, imagery, spontaneous recall of past memories, derepression of conflictual material, incessant thinking, and emotional lability, including dramatic swings in moods (M. Sayadaw, 1973; Walsh, 1977:, 1978; Kornfield, 1979; Kapleau, 1965).” (from the article Therapeutic Aims in Psychotherapy and Meditation: Developmental Stages in the Repression of Self. Published in Transformations of Consciousness: Conventional and Contemplative Perspectives on Development. Wilber, Engler, 1986: Shambala).

Zen ‘Masters’ residing in the West exploit the hell out of this documented fact. They know exactly, *exactly*, what progress their students have made. You can just see the wheels turning: “Well, they are never going to get it, might as well make the best of the situation …” With “the best” being anything from genuine compassionate engagement to cynical sexual/psychological exploitation at its basest. Only a few students make the grade, or are told that they have, and what happens to them? Well, they become the next crop of Zen ‘Masters’.

The best you can hope for is that the abbot of your temple drops the ’Master’ mask and opts to be a simple priest, hosting a safe place for you and your fellow ‘aspirants’ to congregate, meditate, and chant, in warm, human solidarity.

How Jack Engler made such a blanket statement about how people practice zazen is beyond me. I wouldn’t take what he said seriously, for what he says shows me that he doesn’t understand what the practice of zazen is about.

I’ve been practicing zazen for over 30 years, and have been teaching it for over twenty. The practice of zazen encompasses all of what is presented above, for zazen is a process, not an attempt to manifest a particular state of mind. Daydreams occur, memories come up, plans are examined, etc. When consciousness of these mental states arises, the instruction is: drop what it is that is being thought and return to breath, or to posture, or to the present moment, whatever instruction has been given. This is called “bringing the mind back home,” and those who practice zazen are well aware of this process. Zen Buddhist practitioners, and there are many, many in the West, are well aware of the process of zazen, make every effort to practice it properly, and do so consistenly. Serious practitioners are well aware when they are not practicing properly, and they make every effort to do so, and good teachers guide them to do so.

Also, your “documented fact,” Christopher, is only your wishful thinking as you continue to try to discredit Zen Buddhist practice and Zen Buddhist teachers. Saying that Zen Masters in the West exploit a “documented fact that is far from fact and therefore, undocumented, makes zero sense. Your fantasy about how Zen Masters function is just that, a fantasy and nothing more.

People congregate in many, many Zen Buddhist practice place in the West in welcoming settings and with compassionate and wise sangha members, teachers, and, hopefully, Zen Masters. All Zen Buddhist practitioners need a guide along the path until they are able to realize their true nature and their relationship to the rest of the universe and are able to walk the path by themselves. This takes a long time, and to try to do it without guidance from one who has walked the path before you is foolish.

Engler made his statement as part of a research study. It is based on objective data. Unlike a Zen Master, he ‘has no dog in this fight’ over whether zazen is efficacious. As I recall, the study went on to compare the efforts of Eastern students, and they were the ones who ‘got it’, compared to Westerners. IMO this is due to brain evolution in the context of societal and cultural differences over centuries (if more explanation is needed I will provide. I’m trying to keep this bit brief). More familiar to some would be Carl Jung’s admonition to stay within your own culture when it comes to endeavors like these.

Mr. Nonin said:

“…the instruction is: drop what it is that is being thought and return to breath, or to posture, or to the present moment, whatever instruction has been given.”

Yes, indeed, Western students make a righteous effort to try to do this, but they largely fail.

Mr. Nonin also said:

“All Zen Buddhist practitioners need a guide along the path until they are able to realize their true nature and their relationship to the rest of the universe and are able to walk the path by themselves. This takes a long time, and to try to do it without guidance from one who has walked the path before you is foolish.”

Okay as your opinion, but otherwise just self-serving subjective crap, (specifically because you make your living ostensibly trying to be such a guide), and also not provable.

As for walking the path, if the discussion here is indicative, you can’t even talk the talk. You treat most of the other commenters in a
clipped, uncompassionate, and ultimately dismissive manner, seemingly without even noticing it, much less copping to it, ZM.

All you have done in your post is say that Westerners don’t know how to practice zazen and disparage me personally. The first is just dead wrong, for there’s no way that you can know how other people are practicing zazen unless you interact with them intimately over a period of time. We teachers have been well-trained by our teachers, both Asian and Western, and we are fully capable of teaching proper methods and guiding others on the path. Your statements make me question whether you know what zazen practice is and seriously question whether you are able to do it. Your second point, disparaging me personally iis the immature action of someone who can’t counter the substance of what another person has said and has to put them down personally. As I asked before, how old are you, anyway?

Mr. Nonin: Note the citations in the Engler quote: Kapleau, Kornfield, etc. It is they who deserve the ‘credit’ you bestow, not me. I don’t blame you for disliking the findings of the research of Engler and Wilber. It provides factual data that totally undercuts your high opinion of yourself and what you do for a living. You are, in fact, apparently ignorant of and completely uninterested in considering the fact that your own practice might be unethical, and that your earnest sangha members, including the longtimers, are unaccomplished, per Zen practice standards, as a direct result.

As for personally disparaging you, actually I like you because you have some fight in you, although misdirected. Me, I’m a dead ringer for Barney Fife (except I have a beard to cover a rather ugly wart on my chin), which, I think, is a fine complement to your impersonation of a failed Addams family experiment. I think we’re quite the pair! Don’t you?

Engler and Wilber are not Zen Buddhist practitioners, so they are outsiders who’ve never experienced the inner workings of a Zen Buddhist practice place, have never worked with a Zen Buddhist teacher. No one can tell whether a person is practicing zazen properly or not from “factual data.” An intimate student / teacher relationship is necessary to determine that.

Also, I and my students do our best to follow the Sixteen Bodhisattva Precepts, which are our Ethical Guidelines. We study them all the times, discuss how we need to follow them in our daily lives, reflect on our success and failures, and re-commit ourselves to following them in a Precept Ceremony once a month.

Many of my students, especially long-term ones, are quite adept at zazen and practicing and following the Zen Buddhist way in all of its aspects. Many other Zen Buddhist teachers have taught at our temple, and they all have commented on how well our members sit and how impressive their practice is. I always ask these teachers they’ve seen here and what their impressions have been. I highly value their input.

I’m certainly not going to pay much attention to the opinions of a person on the internet who has never met me or any of my students, has never visited our temple, shows little depth of understanding, is completely vague about his or her own practice, where it occurred and under whom, and won’t even post under his or her own name but uses a pseudonym.

“Engler and Wilber are not Zen Buddhist practitioners, so they are outsiders who’ve never experienced the inner workings of a Zen Buddhist practice place, have never worked with a Zen Buddhist teacher. No one can tell whether a person is practicing zazen properly or not from “factual data.” An intimate student / teacher relationship is necessary to determine that.”

Their study includes citations from, among others, Phillip Kapleau, who was a Zen Buddhist teacher, and Jack Kornfield, a meditation teacher in the vipassana tradition.

I mention these two because I respect them and know them to a degree. I was a student at RZC in 1973 while Kapleau was there, and so I knew him personally. I believe he had just the sort of relationships with some of his students that you are probably referring to. I only know Kornfield through his books and audiotapes, which were helpful to me. But I would venture to guess, based on his reputation, that he might have had such relationships, too.

If, as you state, it is not possible for anyone other than a student’s own teacher to discover whether zazen is practiced ‘properly’, in the context of an intimate [sic] student / teacher relationship only, then it would be impossible to produce any objective or scholarly works on that subject. It would also nullify the self-reports of at least some honest students. That, of course, is just pure Arrogant, and again, let me stress: self-serving, bullsh*t on your part.

Junior also said:

“Many other Zen Buddhist teachers have taught at our temple, and they all have commented on how well our members sit and how impressive their practice is. I always ask these teachers they’ve seen here and what their impressions have been. I highly value their input.”

Oh, and each had intimate student / teacher relationships with many of those sangha members? Enough to painstakingly evaluate over time the actual substance, and not just the appearance, of their ‘proper’ practices?

IMO, Western students who try to practice zazen are not (necessarily) doing anything useless or harmful. They are just not able to fulfill their practices, and they even may be unaware of that, although they valiantly persevere. However, an abbot who calls himself a Zen Master and would claim demonstrably (objectively) false results is really no better than a Stage Hypnotist, who relies on the ‘almost’ innocent collaboration of his audience to tout his accomplishments.

The truth of failed zazen is not a disparagement to those who practice it. In fact, it should be a relief for at least some to know that they are in the same boat as the average Western student/practitioner. It can also be re-narratized as courageous, steadfast, etc., even compassionate, in the context of supporting others.

Regarding your assertion that there are no major flaws in Zen, I recommend reading my paper “Zen Has No Morals!” at http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/Zen_Has_No_Morals.pdf. I namely provide at least seven reasons why charlatans like Eido Shimano were able to continue teaching for so long, of which your “dwelling in emptiness” is only one.

Incidentally, I also go into detail about how such teachers typically deflect criticism with statements like “the problem is only in your own mind.”

In any case, I look forward to reading your essay again after the next scandal at a major Zen centre.

I have read your paper and found it full of holes. The biggest one was presenting Klaus Zernickow as a Rinzai Zen teacher. He was (or still is; I don’t know) a self-proclaimed teacher, un-authorized and un-transmitted according to those who re-searched his claims. This whole is so big that your paper has no real substance.

I know nothing about your background and your experience, so I have no idea why you are bent on speciously discrediting anything and anyone who has anything to do with Zen Buddhism. You’ve done this not only in the article you reference but on many online sites. I hope that no one takes your efforts seriously and that you seriously reflect on the causes of your behavior.

Hello Christopher,
I just wanted to say I found your “Zen Has No Morals” article very helpful and well-researched. Unfortunately I myself encountered all the eight (!) cultish charactistics you listed in my former Sangha. So from experience I can say your article has great signifigance and credibility, at least for me. I think all today’s Zen communities may honestly contemplate on that paper.
As for Nonin, it makes one only guess how this ‘Zen master’ got his certificate to agressively defend his shaky position, waving off all research that oppose his own views and insulting fellow Zen practitioners. Must be the fruits of a deep cultivated practice… And as he seems to always want to have the last word (Roshis always have the last word, right?) I find it useless to get into a discussion with him.

None of the sanghas that I have ever practiced in exhibited the “eight cultish characteristics.” It’s too bad that yours did. Did you leave? If not, why not? If you did, did you join a healthy Zen Buddhist sangha? There are many, many of them functioning all all over the world. Ours in Omaha, Nebraska is one of them. There are also many, many Zen Buddhist practice places all over the world led by good teachers trying their best to guide their students in the practice of realization.

Rather than attack me personally, how about referring to the article that is supposed to be under discussion. Have you read it? If not, why not? Also, you ask about my background. See http://www.prairiewindzen.org. What my training and transmission were about is listed there, for I have nothing to hide.

As far as I know, you’ve never engaged in any discussion with me, so how do you know that it would be useless. I’ve had some thoughtful exchanges with a couple of people here, certainly not with people who merely want to bash Zen practice and its teachers. I respond clearly directly to those who address me, and if they don’t like my responses, I say, “If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”

I was just about to the point of feeling some compassion for you over this issue of your late teacher.

My name is not Steven — if you didn’t notice I wrote it was “Stephen” although I usually go by Steve. I actually prefer “Zafrogzen” here on the web if you don’t mind. I am not attached to any of those mental constructs because I do understand what you are saying above, but I don’t think you understood what I said.

Being a “Zen Master” is more than just a confidence game, of ringing your bell and sending folks back to their cushion. It also implies having a clear and open eye (mind) to see not only one’s many selves clearly, but others as well. Then compassion and wisdom (understanding) begins to develop.

While we’re on the subject of names. The taking of another name (always Japanese) in zen, while a symbol of home-leaving and cutting off one’s past, is also a technique used in cult indoctrination. like many things in zen training But the worst cult characteristic is the idealization of a central authority figure, or “Master.” The anger we see here when that idealization is shattered and the denial when it is threatened, are two sides of the same stick. And as in the above that stick is just “our” own mind.

Katagiri was just a mixed up human being like you and I, and not a particularly happy one either. Like Sasaki he had a ton of samadhi power, but his compassion and wisdom still had a ways to go.

Oh, so Zen Buddhism is a cult in your eyes, eh? That explains why you’re trying so hard to bash Zen Buddhist practices and teachers here.

We who practice together at Nebraska Zen Center / Heartland Temple are not part of a cult. We have a very healthy sangha, made up of long-term practitioners and relative newcomers alike, who find that our practices deepen their understanding of who they are and their relationship to the rest of the universe. They also regard my role here as a guide who directs them in practices that cultivate that understanding, not a “Master” as in “master-slave relationship” or as “he who must be obeyed.”

I’ve been practicing Soto Zen Buddhism for over thirty years, with four main teachers, and not only at three main practice places in the US and Japan but also for short periods with other teachers in a few places and in a couple of other traditions — Rinzai and also Korean Chogye Zen and Kwan Um. I have not found any of those places to be detrimental to personal fulfillment, nor have I found the sanghas there to be cults or the teachers to be cult leaders who depending on complete submission from the underlings.

Why are you so determined to regard Zen Buddhism as a cult and Zen Teachers as cult leaders. By your own admission, you practice by yourself, have never formally entered practice with a group, have no teacher, and are quite content to not enter into any king of formal practice. How do you know how Zen practice places are administered and run? Why do you seem intent on judging all Zen Buddhist teachers by the misguided actions of a few?

I didn’t say zen was a cult. I said it had some cult characteristics. I think that is what we need to keep in mind if were are to avoid these abuses of power in the future. I don’t know any thing about your group but it sounds just fine.

Actually I have practiced extensively with zen groups, starting with Suzuki Roshi in the sixties in my early twenties (I’d already been sitting on my own since childhood). After his death other teachers seemed flawed by comparison and I have not been able to commit to any of them, but I did continue my practice with Kobun Chino and Robert Aitken, along with sesshins with Sasaki, Toni Packer, and numerous other teachers. I’ve also done a three year solo meditation retreat in the mountains which was especially good. I could find quotes from Buddhists texts, such as the Lankavatara Sutra, that recommend go off and practicing alone. I’ve know quite a few zen practitioners who didn’t have the discipline to practice once they left their zen nest. You apparently are dependent on a group. That’s fine. But be careful of talking about subjects with which you have no experience.

I should also add that I have great affection and admiration for the teachers and friends I’ve encountered in the official zen world. Perhaps that is why these scandals have been so disappointing. I’d just like to avoid more of the same in the future.

I, too, have great affection and admiration for the teachers and friends I’ve encountered in the official Zen Buddhist world. Yes, these scandals have been disappointing, but I always remember that those teachers and friends I’ve encountered in the Zen Buddhist world far outnumber and outweigh those who have engaged in misconduct. I also would like to avoid more of the kinds of scandals same in the future, and many of us in Zen Buddhist world are trying hard to educate people, set up formal ethical guidelines, and encourage all sanghas to establish grievance procedures to resolve whatever ethical breaches may occur.

Your statement about addressing the problem of perpetual scandals in Western Zen with more ethical guidelines and grievance procedures sounds reassuring. Yet history has shown that neither of these things work: the ZSS had ethical guidelines in place since 1993, and Mumon-Kai simply violated its own grievance procedures when they were actually invoked. Shasta Abbey also had ethical rules in place, but students either didn’t know it or they were afraid to use them, given the cultish atmosphere pervading the place (see http://shastaabbey.org/pdf/PublicStatement102011.pdf)

So again, your position comes across as simply an attempt to play down the severity of Zen’s problems.

This is an important point you raise, Christopher, and I am seeing significant movement towards the establishment of an external, independent ethics commission. Expecting people who are harmed to report back to the organization that was founded by the offender, and further expecting a fair outcome is not realistic. For myself, I am hopeful for these developments.

Thank you Eshu. External control is certainly a step in the right direction.

Incidentally, the Zen Studies Society called upon a group headed by a dharma heir of none other than our Mr. Chowaney himself, to help them deal with Shimano. For reasons that should now be clear to everyone reading these comments, “external” has to mean “no connection to the Zen establishment.”

“Zen” does not have problems. That may seem so to you, who are bent on discrediting not only Zen Buddhism in general but all Zen Buddhist practice places and Zen Buddhist teachers. The problem lies with the few Zen Buddhist teachers who have transgressed and the few sanghas who have not addressed the issues as soon as they should have.

I can assure you that we Zen Buddhist teachers as a whole are committed to providing safe and sane practice places for all students who come to practice with us. We are also committed to promoting and upholding proper ethical standards and expecting our colleagues to live by them. We are also committed to providing help in getting back on track to any teacher who violates these standards and to the sanghas affected by these violations.

Also, Christopher, On Olive Branch, the facilitation and mediation service working with Zen Studies Society and other Buddhist groups, is staffed by long-term and well-respected professionals in the field, one of whom is my dharma heir, Kyoki Roberts, the only fully accredited mediation and facilitation professional at An Olive Branch who is a practicing Buddhist. She is also a fully independent Zen Buddhist teacher.

I’ve never been to Japan, but it sounds like zen in America is sort of different — something of an experiment. I’d hate to see it self-destruct, because I think, with it’s emphasis on sitting meditation, it has something uniquely valuable to offer. But it does need to evolve and mature. A good start might be for zen masters to be masters of zen, not of other people.

I was referring to the disciple/master tradition, in which the master is master of the disciple. You are probably very attached to this construct and unable to see it objectively and how it can result in abuse of power — just as you are unable to critically examine any of your other attachments in regard to zen practice.

That one case has been substantiated (actually who is the ultimate authority, who is to decide in that case? The board of a Sangha plagued by an extensive conflict of interest? Did Katagiri admit the sexual exchange before his death? Your criteria of discrimination are unreasonable according to any modern courts) does not mean that there is no other instances. You see and dismiss for now other possible instances as not credible, mere rumors. Again, actually who is the ultimate authority, who is to decide? You! Really? Your criteria of discrimination is unreasonable according to any modern societies and democracies. With so many other scandals, many of the mere rumors (which were denied and dismissed exactly as you do right now, on the same bases, by students and people close to the abuser) turned to reflect a truth. Actually, in many cases, reality turned out to be much worse than the rumors. How can you be sure that history won’t just repeat itself in your case?

People are asking an other important question in the light of the sexual stories involving famous Zen teachers that are finally coming out: how could these acts and behaviors have been going on for so long? We are finally starting to get answers, including from testimonies published on this site. And I must add that your responses and reactions, your stead fast denial on the basis of unreasonable and self-serving criteria in Katarigi’s case offers a further glimpse on the why and how these teachers were able to continue their abuses and pray on Zen students.

Those sangha members who were involved in the investigation and the independent facilitator hired by the sangha were only able to establish that one sexual affair occurred involving Katagiri-roshi and a student, nothing more. There is no credible evidence to the contrary. Neither I nor anyone else can say differently unless any more information comes out, which is highly unlikely after twenty years. Any other allegations are merely speculations by self-righteous people who are bent on discrediting not only Katagiri-roshi but all Zen Buddhist teachers by inference.

You wrote: “Those sangha members who were involved in the investigation and the independent facilitator hired by the sangha were only able to establish that one sexual affair occurred involving Katagiri-roshi and a student, nothing more.” Thank you for the precision: was there any official document ever published and made available for posterity on the matter (I can understand why it might not be on the web, or even more likely, nothing public has ever seen the light of the day)? Thanks. In any case, the Sangha members were assuming many conflicts of interest by putting themselves as primary investigators, even in presence of a facilitator. In many similar instances, experience has taught us that these conflicts of interest have influenced all too dearly their investigation and its conclusions. May be the sangha members did their job with integrity and their conclusions are a fair state of the world. I don’t know but, based on experience and the wisdom we learned from the past, we have to remain cautious and show a healthy skepticism towards the conclusions of their investigation. Your complete acceptance of their conclusion, without raising any doubt or questions and, most importantly, refusing others to do so, is not a balanced and healthy response. I understand you have better information that I have, have talked to some of these members personally, and taken their words over those of others, but those factors entail both advantages and shortcomings when it comes to make a wise decision.

And again, that they were only able to substantiate (again I’m not sure what substantiate means here since you never clarify that matter) one case does not rule out that there were no other instances. Your refusal to even address the possibility is troublesome. I don’t know how much you know about decision theory but in some approaches of choice under uncertainty, two hypotheses can be assumed: the null hypothesis and the alternative hypothesis. It could for example the null hypothesis that a Zen teacher never had a sexual encounter with any student; the alternative is that the Zen teacher has had at least one sexual encounter with a student. In principle, neither you and I can know that one hypothesis is true with certainty — although you are surely arguing as if the hypothesis that Katagiri only had one sexual encounter with a student as certainly true. Assuming these two hypotheses, two kinds of error are possible: the first type of error (type I) occurs when the null hypothesis is actually true but your decision rules reject it or treat it as false; errors of type II occur when the alternative is actually true but your decision rules reject it or treat it as false. In many cases, under uncertainty, there is no perfect decisions rules. Prior to any experiment or choice, in principle and on average, errors can’t be avoided. Which decision rules to pick is all about balancing trade-offs over preferences since there is no perfect decision rule.
What I’m trying to get at is that, for instance, your decision to dismiss any circulating stories and rumors has its own costs and is also cause of suffering. Yes, you spare the innocent teachers from false accusations but you also enable, or at least make it more likely for, the abusers to continue their activities. It makes you prone to reject the alternative hypothesis exampled earlier (Zen teacher had a sexual affair or, in Katagiri’s case, that he had more than one sexual affair). Genjo has admitted on this forum having committed this type of error in the past and how your current attitude reminded his previous self. The question you implicitly face is then how many recipients of sexual abuses are you willing to tolerate in order to spare an innocent teacher? Because, intentionally or not, that is the trade-off you are implicitly balancing in the choices you have expressed on this forum.

Rumors and less than perfect means of diffusion of information will frequently precede the resolution (such as a formal and collectively accepted investigation) of situations and behaviors that are and were, by nature and intentions, hidden and kept secret. They have their necessity, role and place. They are often part of, essential ingredients to, a resolution process in an imperfect world. And that you can’t accept their possible twofold and ambiguous nature (yes they can be far damaging for the innocent but they often play a key role in the unfolding and resolution of situations and conflicts) reflects your ignorance and preferences more than anything else.

Finally, you wrote “Any other allegations are merely speculations by self-righteous people who are bent on discrediting not only Katagiri-roshi but all Zen Buddhist teachers by inference.” If that is how, with this black and white outlook, you genuinely see and understand the world and what is happening on this forum and elsewhere, I’m deeply saddened that more than 30 years of Zen has produced so little wisdom …

You can blame me for whatever your little heart desires, whether its enabling abusers to continue or whatever other fantasies you can cook up. I am not responsible for anyone’s behavior but my own.

The issue of Katagiri-roshi’s sexual misconduct was settled to the satisfaction of those who were investigating it, to the larger Minnesota sangha, and to those former sangha members of us who checked in with current sangha members from afar twenty years ago. There was one affair that was substantiated.

Rumors are rumors, and until they are substantiated, they remain rumors, and I pay them no mind. Whatever you do with them is up to you. Also, you can disparage me, all Zen Buddhist teachers, all sanghas, and Zen Buddhist practices in general to your heart’s content. Hopefully no one will take you seriously, because we and our practices in general don’t deserve it.

Lee Love was a member of the core Minnesota sangha at the time that the news of Katagiri-roshi’s misbehavior broke. Here’s what he wrote elsewhere on this thread:

“Actually Erik, Nonin is correct. There is only one substantiated occurrence of sexual impropriety. I too was sad to see Natalie spreading rumors in her book, but was not surprised, because in previous books, I was present when she described situations that I was present at and remember differently.”

Most people in Minnesota at the time support this finding and share these sentiments. Of course, there are some who did believe the rumors and continue to do so. They’ll have to tell you why they do, and there are probably many reasons.

Don’t worry Nonin, I have read it once and then twice when pasted it a first time, and then three times when you pasted it again, and so on … For reasons I have explained earlier, I can weight that statement but it does not address any of the issues have raised, neither can it be seen as definitive proof of anything. Regarding that matter, what is your response to Erik when he writes:

“The independent investigator, Marilyn Peterson, now Marilyn Peterson Armour, issued a report regarding only one priest “who was the Practice Director from November 1993 to April 1994.” This was not Katagiri Roshi, who died in 1990, but one of his dharma heirs.

In her conclusions, Peterson notes: “I was surprised that so few people attended the healing meetings. To me, the lack of attendance suggests that even though people were invited, a conspiracy of silence hangs over the Center.” Peterson sensed clearly that, at that time, people were not coming forward.

If there was a separate independent investigator looking into MZMC difficulties after Katagiri Roshi’s affair became known in about 1995 or 96, I am unaware of it, although I attended meetings to address that issue. If there was one, I’d appreciate getting a copy of that report. By that time Shohaku Okumura had become the head teacher at MZMC.”

Is that correct or do you have a different recollection of history because both your characterization of historical facts and his, are, insofar as I can tell, inconsistent. Thank you.

You keep playing the same silly tune that people with specific concerns are against “all Zen Buddhist teachers, all sanghas, and Zen Buddhist practices in general” Believe me when I say that no one is dumb enough to buy such a tactic.

No, that’s not what I’m doing, and if you had read carefully, you would know that. I’m not speaking against people with specific concerns but countering (1) those who want to bash Zen Buddhism and Zen Buddhist teachers in general, (2) those who have not only not read my article carefully but also have opened other topics in this comment section that have nothing to to with it, and (3) those who have tried to put things on me and other Zen Buddhist teachers that don’t belong there.

1) By “speaking against” people who wish to bash Zen Buddhist you are helping them.

Oh really, how so? People who read this thread need to know that someone who is merely out to bash others without supporting statements doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously, nor does someone who bashes another by ascribing guilt by association.

2) Why speak against people who didn’t read your article?

Because they’ve referred to aspects of it by hearsay, not by reading it carefully.

3) You can’t know if what other say is true or not. And you don’t seem to be very reliable.

I was a lay student of Katagiri-roshi’s. When the news came out in the mid-90’s, I, like many of his students was devastated. How could this be, how could he do this? I felt betrayed. I went to see Shohaku Okumura who was the head teacher at Mn Zen Meditation Center at the time. I sought his advice on how to deal with this hurt and betrayal I felt. Shohaku-san said that he too felt great sadness and disappointment about KR’s transgressions. He then said to me don’t forget what Roshi gave you. What Katagiri-Roshi gave me was an entrance into the Buddha-dharma , which I will be eternally grateful for.

For me, I felt that this was another teaching from his grave, “I WAS JUST A HUMAN BEING, LIKE YOU. I REALLY SCREWED UP.”
Hojo-san was so isolated on this pedestal we built for him. I can relate to him better off his pedestal. I won’t forget that he messed up big time and yet I can forgive him. I’ve forgiven other people in my life who have messed up big time as well, but I’m not naive, but ever vigilant.
I am so grateful to be with the Buddha-way beyond any particular person.
In gassho to all,

You accuse anyone who tries to offer insights and solutions to the abuses of power in the zen establishment of trying to “discredit zen.” With your astounding lack of self-awareness and bombastic outbursts, you have done more in this discussion to discredit zen than any of the criticisms put forward. Most of characteristics described by Christopher Hamacher in his thoughtful paper could easily apply to you. I am stunned and depressed by this exchange with you.

I am grateful there are still some sane and intelligent individuals in this practice, such as Erik, Christoper, Matthias and the others who have posted here.

Thanks for the apology, Stephen. These things happen. Unfortunately, we can’t edit what we’ve written here after its been posted, so typos, mistakes, and unfortunate phrases stand. Please enjoy the rest of your day.

No, you actually made your valid point quite clear, zafrogzen. I second your opinion. Sadly, or maybe luckily, Nonin stands pretty alone in his ignorant way of contributing to the discussion. He might have the so-called authority in zen (whatever that means), and apparently the others haven’t. Are therefore the views of the ‘have-not’s’ (transmission) any less than the ‘have’s’? As it is a ridiculously fabricated pseudo-distinction, I guess not!

I have received many positive compliments on my article from a variety of people who were calm enough to read it and smart enough to understand it. The negative stuff posted as comments here comes from the internet trolls who also hang out on Adam Fisher’s blog, those trolls who love to bash Zen Buddhist practice and it’s teachers any chance they get, those who don’t have anything better to do than post what they consider to be clever comments that put others down, and those who carry grudges against me and other Zen Buddhist teachers for reasons known only to themselves.

Serious Zen Buddhist practitioners and teachers usually don’t respond to such stuff, and I as a long-term practitioner and teacher usually don’t either. This time, however, I decided to counter all the junk, and I’ve had fun doing so.

If anyone would like to try practicing Zen Buddhism with a good teacher in a welcoming setting with good dharma friends, please say so here or e-mail me privately (the address is on our website), and I’ll either post or send a list of practice places near you that you can try out.

I’m very fortunate in that I have a nice place to practice in and good students and dharma friends to practice with who care about me and I about them. I feel very sorry for those who don’t have such a situation and who only like to bitch at and about those who do.

Nonin,
I have know Adam and Kobutsu. You have no insight into what they have been through embracing the dharma. Perspective taking is the sign of an open mind. Can you see through their eyes why they may have a different perspective on Zen?
Adam is a brilliant writer. Kankaku Again is one of my favorite blogs. What you said about him smells like emotional immaturity…so does not laughing at Kobutsu’s jab.
Can we agree that emotionally mature, unpretentious teachers are healthy teachers?

“’If anyone would like to try practicing Zen Buddhism with a good teacher…’” What an arrogant statement.”

If you had read the rest of that sentence, you would know that I certainly wasn’t referring to myself. Quoting me out of context and adding your statement is nothing but intellectual dishonesty, typical trolling behavior.

I really liked the paper by Christopher too. It didn’t discourage me from my zen practice in the least. Instead, I thought it was really helpful in giving me tools to become a more “intelligent consumer”. This is exactly the type of information that will help me and others stay safe. Thank your Christopher for making this available.

Nonin writes: “Those sangha members who were involved in the investigation and the independent facilitator hired by the sangha were only able to establish that one sexual affair occurred involving Katagiri-roshi and a student, nothing more.”

The independent investigator, Marilyn Peterson, now Marilyn Peterson Armour, issued a report regarding only one priest “who was the Practice Director from November 1993 to April 1994.” This was not Katagiri Roshi, who died in 1990, but one of his dharma heirs.

In her conclusions, Peterson notes: “I was surprised that so few people attended the healing meetings. To me, the lack of attendance suggests that even though people were invited, a conspiracy of silence hangs over the Center.” Peterson sensed clearly that, at that time, people were not coming forward.

If there was a separate independent investigator looking into MZMC difficulties after Katagiri Roshi’s affair became known in about 1995 or 96, I am unaware of it, although I attended meetings to address that issue. If there was one, I’d appreciate getting a copy of that report. By that time Shohaku Okumura had become the head teacher at MZMC.

I’d be happy to supply copies of the Peterson report and other relevant documents to those interested.

Twenty years ago, there was only one substantiated instance of a sexual affair between Katagiri-roshi and a student. There was nothing else circulating the nor is nothing else circulating now but rumors.

I would be interested in a copy of the Peterson report and would appreciate if you could send one my way. My email address appears lower in this thread.

I also thank you for the background information to the Gopfert study, i.e. that the teacher in “Jamie’s” case was Nonin’s teacher Dainin Katagiri. Do you have any information about the other teachers mentioned therein? The study was namely written at a time when it was perhaps necessary to keep the names confidential to protect the victims, but I believe that time has passed, especially since Gopfert herself has in the meantime died. And I admit that I found the anonymity tantalizing and frustrating when reading her thesis.

For my part, I can state that Gopfert’s own teacher, who she does not name but also accuses of betrayal, was almost certainly Willigis Jäger, probably the single most popular Zen teacher in Germany today.

I would like to make a sincere proposal to all of the participants in this thread and those, like myself, who have followed it in silence since its inception. My proposal is as follows… The Engaged Zen Foundation will be happy to accept all donations for the purpose of sending Nonin to Hawaii for a luxury vacation at a really nice hotel within walking distance of the beach. The selected hotel will have a first class dining room and all the amenities for a truly restful and revitalizing vacation.

We will be glad to accept donations for this purpose and hopefully we can raise enough funds to see that Nonin is treated to a really top-notch vacation with lots of beach time and some truly fine dining and local entertainment.

We will be happy to keep track of all donations and in the event that we are unable to raise sufficient funds to make this dream a reality, we will gladly refund all donations received after a reasonable period of time.

In order to insure that Nonin has the opportunity to maximize his all expense paid Hawaiian vacation, we will impose one (and only one) caveat… that he leaves his computer at home and stays off line for the duration of his once in a lifetime dream vacation in Hawaii.

I have received many positive compliments on my article from a variety of people who were calm enough to read it and smart enough to understand it. The negative stuff posted as comments here comes from the internet trolls who also hang out on Adam Fisher’s blog, those trolls who love to bash Zen Buddhist practice and it’s teachers any chance they get, those who don’t have anything better to do than post what they consider to be clever comments that put others down, and those who carry grudges against me and other Zen Buddhist teachers for reasons known only to themselves.

Serious Zen Buddhist practitioners and teachers usually don’t respond to such stuff, and I as a long-term practitioner and teacher usually don’t either. This time, however, I decided to counter all the junk, and I’ve had fun doing so.

If anyone would like to try practicing Zen Buddhism with a good teacher in a welcoming setting with good dharma friends, please say so here or e-mail me privately (the address is on our website), and I’ll either post or send a list of practice places near you that you can try out.

I’m very fortunate in that I have a nice place to practice in and good students and dharma friends to practice with who care about me and I about them. I feel very sorry for those who don’t have such a situation and who only like to bitch at and about those who do.

Serious Zen Buddhist practitioners and teachers usually don’t respond to such stuff, and I as a long-term practitioner and teacher usually don’t either. This time, however, I decided to counter all the junk, and I’ve had fun doing so.

You find it fun to put people down, calling their comments “junk” etc. Not surprising.

Why do you find this surprising. Junk is junk; what else am I supposed to call it? Early on, a couple of my teachers told me something I said was “ridiculous” and “stupid.” They also criticized aspects of my practice severely. I learned from these exchanges and were grateful for them, even thought they hurt at first.

Zen Master Dogen, the brilliant master who brought Soto Zen Buddhism from China to Japan was fond of calling monks who weren’t practicing, whose understanding was nil, and who hired lay people to do their jobs around the temple, “bald-headed beasts.” As former President Harry Truman once said, “If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”

Why not let him undertake the pilgrimage to Hawai the way true Zen monks would do: slip into the robe, taking the staff and the bowl in the hand and beg his way to the holiday destination of his worldly dreams!
The money is better spent on real charity like the homeless, war victims, etc.

Thanks for the thought, but I’m too busy sitting zazen, serving the sangha, interacting with my students, giving zazen instruction, taking care of the temple and grounds, writing articles, giving lectures, educating people in the Zen Buddhist way, welcoming high school and college groups, speaking to them, and answering their questions, and participating in the AZTA and SZBA, along with many other things, to accept your offer, if there ever is one. I practice and teach Zen Buddhism full time.

Actually, your suggestions are merely frivolous attempts to direct the discussion way from important questions, such as why are you trolls so bent on discrediting Zen Buddhist practice and teachers, rather than learning from both.

I neglected to say that I rarely spend time on internet nonsense, but there was so much of it posted in response to something I wrote that I wanted to confront it. Much of it was posted by those who’ve attacked me on other internet sites and have stalked me yet other sites. It’s been fun to finally confront them here.

Most Ven. Nonin said: “Actually, your suggestions are merely frivolous attempts to direct the discussion way from important questions, such as why are you trolls so bent on discrediting Zen Buddhist practice and teachers, rather than learning from both.”

Actually Nonin, Kobutsu’s post and my reaction point to a legitimate subject: not to indulge in pride and the need to defend your opinions all the time against others who have different ones. And what about samma vaca (right speech)? Calling people names (t**lls) is a dharmic violation as you might know.
Oh, and don’t misinterpret fellow practicioners like me by saying we only like to discredit the practice and teachers. Thanks for the concern, but I have a fine teacher and a solid practice myself. We only use our discernment here between genuine teachers and the pretenders.

So – I end this pointless discussion. Have better things to do (maybe you should too?) Have a good life.

Having followed this thread and resulting comments I would like to thank Nonin. Each time I start thinking about entering formal zen practice, Nonin’s comments set me on the right path again which is to stay as far as possible and as long as possible from any zen center.

I notice that you now not only refuse to use your real name when posting here, but also have cancelled the reply option to your posts and refuse to give any information about yourself, so I’m ignoring your posts. Not only are they frivolous and without merit, but you could be anybody and could have been posting here under a variety of pseudonyms. I have better things to do than to respond to trolls.

After all the recent scandals, I really got the feeling that we’d hit rock bottom. Alas, there comes Nonin (“an American Zen Master” — ooooh…) to prove me wrong. But maybe it’s all for the best.

As the Most Venerable Reverend Master Nonin keeps baffling this community with his “mastery”, “wisdom” and “compassion,” I guess it’s high time we take it seriously that Zen’s problems go much further than “sexual misconduct” (pardon the euphemism).

Just how much longer are we, as a community, willing to ignore the fact that these supposed spiritual “masters” are just regular guys (if that) in Japanese costumes?

How much longer are we going to turn a blind eye on reality? When are we going to stop turning our back on things as they really are?

Susuki, Shimano, and Baker, among others, have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that even the most dedicated practice, even decades of either zazen/shikantaza or koan introspection, can only do so much.

I can actually picture it in my mind: Sasaki or Shimano, surrounded by bright-eyed students, presenting something like Ungan’s “The Whole Body is Hand and Eye” (about compassionate action being “like a person straightening the pillow with outstretched hands in the middle of the night”, etc.). At the end of the presentation, everyone is amazed — “Holy Yoda, what an embodiment of compassion!” Afterwards, the compassion-embodying master goes into a private room and fingers a student.

Wow, gee, aren’t koans a nice, objetive way to verify one’s attainment and embodiment of practice? SUUURE they are. 😉 Now it just makes me laugh when they say that.

(That’s not to pick on koans, though. Baker and others have also shown us that zazen/shikantaza won’t turn you into an Yoda Enlightened Master, either.)

But I digress…

What I wanted to comment on are Nonin’s disturbing efforts to bury grievances about his own “master,” and other “masters” too.

For years, many students have been asking: How come they don’t do anything? Why are all the accusations buried? Why are all the “whistleblowers” discredited — and the victims, ignored? Why is there such a concealment and obfuscation of the truth?

Well, maybe now it’s plain for all to see.

Even more disturbing (much more disturbing, in fact) is Nonin’s defence of Shimano, in 2010:

“I have no idea why Robert Aitken is bringing this issue up again this time.”

“Eido Shimano has spoken for the past fifteen years. He’s been teaching the dharma, building a strong lay and ordained sangha, mantaining a vibrant monastery, ordaining priests, transmitting them, and, as far as I and his closest disciples know, has changed the behavior that got him in trouble so many years ago. In other words, he has kept his nose clean as regards sexual relationships with students. If Robert Aitken, Stuart Lachs, and Adam cannot let this go after so many years, it’s their problem.”

“What good does it do at this point in time to re-hash events from fifteen years ago? […] If someone is carrying ill-will, hard feelings, or whatever from events fifteen years past, he or she has to deal with them, and if an apology never came or is not forthcoming, he or she has to deal with that.”

The article that is supposed to be commented on here was on the causes of unethical practices by Zen Buddhist practitioners, but the comments section has been hijacked by a myriad of off-topic and inflammatory posts.

If anyone would like to return the discussion to the subject of the article I wrote, I’d be happy to respond.

Could you please post your birth certificate, so that we all will know that you’re a *real person* (not just an experimental one), and how about your college transcript from Harvard while you’re at it?

The article that is supposed to be commented on here was on the causes of unethical practices by Zen Buddhist practitioners, but the comments section has been hijacked by a myriad of off-topic and inflammatory posts.

If anyone would like to return the discussion to the subject of the article I wrote, I’d be happy to respond.

Thank you for a very well written piece on Unethical Practices and karma.

For some background I am Banko Randy Phillips and I was at one time president of the board of directors of the Zen Studies Society. At one time I considered myself a good friend of Eido Shimano. I traveled with him to Japan and worked on several books with him. When Robert Aitkin via the web asked for a formal reply by Eido Shimano to his charges (the first that I was aware of them) I tried to get Eido Shimano to respond. I was no longer president of the board but was still on it. It was apparent that his answer was not forthcoming.

It is a long and dreary story that unfolded and there is no real need to go into details other than to say that I resigned the board because I found myself at a moral empass. I was not the first nor the last. When the original admission of an ongoing affair surfaced just days before a sesshin I argued for an immediate leave of absence for Shimano. The board did not support my view. As time passed and other things emerged it became more apparent to me that this LOA was the least that we should do. I explained my moral dilemma to the board and Shinge Roshi. They did not support my view and so I resigned.

Genjo Osho was in agreement with my positions all along and did his best to support me. He hung in there but eventually experienced a moral dilemma of his own that he could not side-step. Of course he was in a bit of a different position being a dharma heir to Shimano. Shinge Roshi was appointed as Abbot and was basically running the board. She did not support Genjo Osho in the least and he left the board. I feel a great sense of loss for her action – or lack of.

The reason for this reply now is simply because of the subject of the above article. As a matter of record – you – from the side-lines repeatedly cast aspersions at anyone who was “against” Shimano or Shinge Roshi. You were an apologist for both – one might even say even a rabid apologist. To my reading – and I think many others – you responded often in a mean spirited manner. Almost anything that Genjo Osho said was picked apart ad nauseam – in a seemingly imperious manner as well – to what end? Shinge Roshi eventually called Shimano a “psychopath” – nothing that either I nor Genjo Osho did. Maybe she is right – now Shimano is suing ZSS (for breaking a contract that he basically wrote himself)- “Let True Dharma Continue” – indeed.

I wish to to tell you that your “actions” made a very difficult time for those of us who were trying to deal with this situation from the inside much more difficult. I don’t believe that you can understand how much more difficult you made things – and what a negative drag it was dealing with your continued sniping. Was this sniping, goading, gloating, quick to anger and attack “unethical” – I don’t presume to know by a long shot but there was apparently plenty of greed anger and delusion to go around. IMHO.

As you said “The law of karma is: positive actions have positive results, negative actions have negative results, neutral actions have neutral results. No one is above this law, no matter how long one has practiced or how deep their understanding.”

Gassho Nonin!
Your main point is correct for sure: being caught in absolute and forgetting the relative brings unhappiness. But what is the actual condition that makes the advanced practitioner stray? That’s an interesting question. Doesn’t real enlightenment give understanding of inseparability of absolute and relative?
I would answer that maybe the problem was in the habits of attachment, which are allowed by slightly incorrect practice and make person’s view limited. I don’t think that your or Aitken’s examples are quite convincing because nor Takuan nor author of that dialogue were not defending killing at all. As far as I see, there is no sign of dwelling in absolute in their words. For me, the point of falling sword is not about killing at all. I think it’s an image that can be understood well by the man of sword. For me, this image says: don’t speculate, collect all your awareness in one focus, here and now, and act accordingly. This focus includes all that you know, all your precepts too. So you act not out of some speculation, but out of wholeness of your mind.
Takuan didn’t break any precepts, AFAIK. Why didn’t he preach refraining from killing, instead of the right state of mind, is another question. Maybe because Mushashi wouldn’t listen to pious preaches. Or maybe because even Bodhisattwas not always can refrain from killing (remember the jataka about the murderer on a ship)?
Yes widows tears are in count, but human fates generally are the threadweave of ignorant ideas, activity impulses and cognitive mind. Birth and death are natural elements of this process. So I would answer to this Aitken’s point of view thusly:
Do not attach to any vow or principle as some absolute value that would allow you to limit your mind from the general view to the speculation, allowing to criticize ancient masters instead of understanding what they did actually mean.
I think the story of Nansen and a cat is relevant to this case.
Sorry for bad English. Happy practice!

“The simplest causes of sexual misconduct are loneliness (especially single people), unhappiness, bad marriages, unfulfilling personal relationships, and, thinking that you can get away with it.”

Of course, this analysis seems to put the fault totally on the student. This is simply “blaming the victim” at its worst! In fact, especially in the recent high profile cases of unethical practices, the real cause is much more likely the fault of the teacher: specifically, naturalist antinomianism.

Astonishing. I have no connection to Nonin at all, but it is obvious to me who knows the real stuff and who doesn’t.
And those who dont are the alienated, the misfits, the hangers on around the periphery.
People who cant form relationships and mistake that for independence.
People with built in hangups about anyone knowing more than them.
People with a built personality disorder that means seeing any authority figure as the enemy.
People in short like Adam Fisher churning out yards of renta-verbiage in which he demonstrates his increased confusion and bitterness that his personal mission to have himself recognised as the anti-zen zen master is widely seen as unintentionally humorous.
Astonishing..and predictable.

I just thought that the sensitivity of this particular joke matched the sensitivity of the comment by *bob*.

I have an unpopular position in this discussion on ‘ethical practice’: I believe it is unethical to advertise or conduct zazen practice with people not well-suited, or not suited at all, to it. I don’t believe, per Engler/Wilbur (quoted elsewhere on this thread), that most Western students get the benefit of it, either. Self-styled Western Zen Masters who prescribe exercises like ‘counting your breaths’ don’t even know in advance if such a course is safe or even contraindicated for some students, because they are usually not interested in a psychological perspective, and not trained in such a perspective, either, and do not comprehensively screen. So: perhaps risky, and not likely beneficial.

I am a retired LCSW. My academic credential is MSW. I have 10+ years experience practicing psychotherapy, including family, individual, and group.

No one rents my verbiage.

My practice? Em-Wave + mehta (no longer do zazen, except when vacationing at Tassajara, where I was once a student). Why do it then? Out of respect for and solidarity with all the others in the zendo.

“People who cant form relationships and mistake that for independence.
People with built in hangups about anyone knowing more than them.
People with a built personality disorder that means seeing any authority figure as the enemy.
People in short like…”

Adam Tebbe. This is indeed a very accurate description of Adam Tebbe and his agenda.

In the book Transformations of Consciousness (Wilbur, Engler, Brown: 1986), Engler discusses clinical features of meditation practice (p. 26). He states that, first, progress is relatively slow. Secondly, that Western students become fixated on a psychodynamic level of experience (Brown and Engler, 1980; I quoted this previously). Third, strong transferences develop to teachers. The reasons for the development of theses features are explained as follows: first, the student’s inability to develop sufficient concentration. Second, there is a tendency to become absorbed in the content of awareness rather than continuing to attend to its process. Third, meditation in the West is practiced as an isolated technique out of context of Buddhist social and cultural values, and way of life. To sum up, Western students practice of Eastern meditation techniques is problematic.

Engler then makes the following observation, and this is where my concern for unethical practices arises. Engler observes that two groups of students exhibit a particular vulnerability and disturbance in their sense of identity and self esteem: those in late adolescence and the period of transition to early adulthood, and those entering or passing through the mid-life transition. In Buddhism they find a shortcut solution to the developmental tasks appropriate to their age and life cycle:

“The Buddhist teaching that I neither have nor am an enduring self is often misinterpreted [by the student] to mean that I do not need to struggle with the tasks of identity formation or with finding out who I am, what my capabilities are, what my needs are, what my responsibilities are, how I am related to other selves, and what I could or should do with my life”.

Engler concludes after further discussion that “meditation may be conceptualized as a developmental process that may produce side effects anywhere along the continuum. Some of these side effects may be pathological in nature while some may be temporary distractions or hindrances. Psychiatric complications of the early stages of meditation have been noted in the Western literature, but Western commentary on the spiritual crises of the higher levels is noticeably absent.”

Mr. Nonin: how about taking these findings seriously? How about stepping up as a teacher and discussing your own involvement in the specific context of Engler’s findings? If you are clueless, and have never even once made similar observations, just reaffirm that for us one more time. At best, it would be a compassionate warning.

Why on earth should any Zen teacher feel they have to answer to a truncated, and context free, and western, psychological model ? A model that is not universally seen as viable even within the context of western psychology/psychopathology ?

Buddha advised learning innumerable doctrines. My sense is the many teachers who come from a counseling or psychotherapy background would agree. Given practice is to one degree or another about reassembling the self, they would be right to be aware of the pitfalls along the Way even when traditional Zen doesn’t necessarily point them out. There are other hazards as well, such as the risk of sesshin causing depression in persons who are susceptible. Why would any compassionate teacher overlook such things? Think, Bob. If Zen training provoked mental illness, would you want to be told you are “stuck in emptiness” or be guided compassionately to appropriate treatment?

Good questions even from a “truncated, western, psychological model” are still good questions. Zen training at its heart is about investigation of this matter; in other words, it is about good questions. I see no reason not to investigate and explore such “psychological” questions. I think our tradition has a lot to learn from “western psychology”, just as “western psychology” has already learned from Eastern traditions.

If someone advertises as a zen master, and takes donations, dues, or other compensation, they need to be held accountable. And if they don’t, but they do offer the experience of zazen, with or without promised benefits, or at least (implied) risk-free, they still are accountable. The irony of your statement is that Eastern meditation can be seen as “A model that is not universally seen as viable [even] within the context of western psychology/psychopathology.”

Don’t believe in developmental benchmarks? Fine. Don’t like the use of any psychodynamic references? Read the quote referred to, then you’ll maybe get it, part of which is that Western students who try to meditate “experience an increase in fantasy, daydreaming, reverie, imagery spontaneous recall of past memories, derepression of conflictual material, incessant thinking, emotional lability, including dramatic swings in mood”, as documented by Phillip Kapleau, Kornfeld, et al. In other words, not meditation, and specifically in the Kapleau reference, not zazen.

Engler conducted a clinical case study published in 1983 that illustrates the problem Westerners have with Eastern meditation by focusing on Eastern practitioners: “Asian practitioners progressed much more quickly, even though they spent considerably less time in intensive practice in retreat settings. The majority had done only one or two 2-week retreats before experiencing First Enlightenment.”

I think a lot of zen masters don’t deliver on what they seem to advertise. This is the issue I am trying to raise.

““Asian practitioners progressed much more quickly, even though they spent considerably less time in intensive practice in retreat settings. The majority had done only one or two 2-week retreats before experiencing First Enlightenment.””

Do you actually believe this? “The majority had done only one or two 2-week retreats before experiencing First Enlightenment” ? A scientific study that can measure when people experience enlightenment? How would such a thing even be possible?

“Enlightenment” is an entirely unscientific term. Anyone who makes a “clinical study” that pretends to measure when people reach enlightenment practices pseudo-science (or pseudo-enlightenment…).

Exactly so.
Psychology is a more useful discipline than some Buddhists allow.
Psychotherapy can be a life saver, when it is pragmatic and existential..
But.. they no more lead to Buddhist Realisation than does car mechanics.
If you are due at a sesshin and your car breaks down..call a mechanic.
If you are aspiring to sit a sesshin and your anxiety levels or depression prevent this..call a therapist.
Don’t conflate that with what happens on the cushion.

Enlightenment is assuredly a slippery term. In fact at times I wish Buddhism would get away from it due to the confusion it seems to provoke in people’s minds.

However, there is a body of research literature about the mystical experience in general — a term which includes Zen enlightenment — and there have been significant works by Zen trained medical doctors to make sense of what happens neurologically. I strongly advise you to get Dr. James Austin’s book Zen and the Brain.

Here are some relevant lines of inquiry: R.W. Sperry (who won the Nobel) a neuroscientist who rejects reduction of all brain functions to mere physical forces; Andrew Greeley “Ecstasy a Way of Knowing”; W. James “Varieties of Religious Experience”; E. Underhill “Mysticism”; W Johnson “The Still Point: Reflections on Zen and Christian Mysticism”;R. Bucke “Cosmic Consciousness: A study in the evolution of the human mind”; A. Maslow “The Highest State of Consciousness”; A. Hardy “The Spiritual Nature of Man”; W. Wilson in Diseases of the Nervous System who discusses mental health benefits of religion; J. Davis, L. Lockwood, and C. Wright “Reasons for not reporting peak experience” in Journal of Humanistic Psychology.

These are just a few but there are many more who explore the notions of the enlightenment experience with an extremely critical view and generally well respected credentials. Though I tend to agree with you about the difficulty of researching enlightenment in an objective way, it is none the less being done with serious academic intent in multiple disciplines.

I would also like to point out to Spike what I have read that the rise of interest in Buddhism in the West — where day to day practice tends to include a heavy focus on meditation — is reviving interest in the East where practioners, who have long been steeped in the culture of Buddhism, have waned in their dedication to sitting.

Just because many of us (myself included) are muddling along in the West should not mean we are not making serious steps toward enlightenment.

If it is indeed some state that can be measured in a scientific way, than it would still be named misleadingly.
I am not the one conflating different terms: There certainly is the term “enlightenment” in “first enlightenment”.

I would agree with you, however, that Samadhi might be measurable, as it is possibly correlated with certain brain wave frequencies. But that has not much to do with any idea of enlightenment.
As for “honest self reporting” of enlightenment experiences: It is no good science if your “measurement” depends on implicit assumptions of “competent teachers”: how do you establish in a scientific (!) way whats a competent teacher?
And if you rely on self reporting: What if the Asians were just quicker to self report whatever it is you code as “first enlightenment”, because they were culturally primed to believe it is attainable?

To me the idea that only Asians can successfully meditate smacks of orientalism and racism. The vast majority of asian buddhists doesn’t even meditate at all, and neither do the vast majorities of Japanese and Korean monks. Most Asians practice of Buddhism is not much different than that of western church goers…

Having met both a lot of western buddhists and a lot of Asian buddhists in Asia, I’ve come away with the conclusion that human nature is remarkably similar wherever you go. It is only the very surface that looks different, and a regular practice should certainly go deeper than that surface. That might not happen in two weeks, though …

“I strongly advise you to get Dr. James Austin’s book Zen and the Brain.”

Yes, I have this book. It is wonderful, but I must admit I find it overwhelming. Thanks for bringing it up! I will try to rededicate some time to reading more of it. I am sure the effort will be well worthwhile.

“I would also like to point out to Spike what I have read that the rise of interest in Buddhism in the West — where day to day practice tends to include a heavy focus on meditation — is reviving interest in the East where practioners, who have long been steeped in the culture of Buddhism, have waned in their dedication to sitting.”

Yes, I believe this is exactly right. One of the concessions in the presentation of Buddhism to Westerners, by Tara Brach among many, is the use of guided meditation, which I have ambivalent feelings about.

I haven’t read the Engler book you keep referring to, but the conclusions you describe sound absurd to me — the notion that people from Eastern cultures “get” enlightenment from meditation that Westerners cannot. Enlightenment is merely a re-cognition of something which we are everyone of us born with(from). It’s not such a big deal once it is recognized. Learning to use it and cultivate it is where it’s at. It’s beyond any specific culture. It’s also just the the beginning of practice, not the end.

The belief that once you “have” it you don’t loose it is not the case. If it was, we wouldn’t have lost it in the first place. Throughout a lifetime of meditation practice I have realized and lost it numerous times, over and over. As an old master said, “How many times have I bought and sold myself.” Fortunately, the longer and harder I practice, the more adept I become at bringing it forth and the more I under-stand it. I had a friend who was a Japanese zen master and his experience was no different than mine.

“You have to be somebody before you can be nobody,” Jack Engler wrote twenty years ago in Transformations of Consciousness, and recently revisited in Psychoanalysis and Buddhism. A supervising psychologist and instructor at Harvard Medical School, where he teaches psychotherapy, Engler has a private practice in Cambridge, Massachusetts. He is a former president of the board of the Insight Meditation Society in Barre, Massachusetts and a founding member and teacher at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies.

While at university, Engler became frustrated by the academic study of philosophy and theology in the absence of experiential knowledge. He began spiritual practice as a Trappist monk under the guidance of Catholic writer and Buddhism enthusiast Thomas Merton. Engler met Vipassana teachers Anagarika Munindra and Dipa Ma while researching his doctoral thesis in India for the University of Chicago; both Munindra and Dipa Ma became his mentors. In November of 2003, Engler shared with Tricycle editor James Shaheen what these remarkable teachers taught him about human potential, the power of presence, and the possibility of enlightenment in this lifetime.

Excerpted from interview:

Many teachers who were in that first generation of Western students feel that they do not embody the teachings to the same extent their Asian masters did. Can you say something about that?

“It’s one thing to teach the practice. It’s another thing to embody it deeply in our own lives. Our Asian teachers were the heirs of twenty-five hundred years of lived tradition and practice. We didn’t grow up with the dharma in our bones like they did. We bring a lot of personal history, self-doubt, self-judgment, and ambivalence to practice. We have to work through a lot on the way, unlearn a lot. Our Asian teachers encountered the dharma with a depth and a breadth that’s going to take us more than this first generation to catch up to.”

Thanks for the Engler link. I’m pleased to see Buddhism continues it’s insidious infiltration of American higher education and the therapeutic professions.

Reading the interview, what came to mind was the old axiom — “As a thing is viewed, so it appears.” That is the way culture influences practice.

Unfortunately, American culture has been adopted by many in Asia. When it comes to practicing meditation effectively, I don’t believe the average young middle-class Asian is any different than a young person here in America — unless it is claimed that they have a genetic predisposition for it, in which case it could as easily be said that reincarnation is at work, and since America is the place to be, great masters are likely to be popping up here (didn’t the Dalai Lama say he would?)

India has always treated its saints and gurus well. As a person progresses on the path it is possible to affect others, even at a distance, often without their being aware of it. This feeds on itself and they draw power from their followers, even to the point of manifesting extra-ordinary powers.

I’m frequently amazed at the spiritual naivete of many folks with great credentials.

–“I’m pleased to see Buddhism continues it’s insidious infiltration of American higher education and the therapeutic professions.”

Lol, this is so true, at least in terms of professional psychotherapy. Representatives of Buddhism get keynote speeches, seminar presentations, all-day workshops, etc., at symposia like the recent one offered by Psychotherapy Networker in DC, where 3,000+ attendees lapped it up, as they have for a number of years at this annual venue. But it’s not a bad thing. I got my EmWave at their onsite bookstore!

–“When it comes to practicing meditation effectively, I don’t believe the average young middle-class Asian is any different than a young person here in America — unless it is claimed that they have a genetic predisposition for it …”

I worked at The Nature Conservancy (TNC) for twenty+ years. TNC helps preserve endangered species and their habitat. Some of the preserves protected by TNC include islands where fauna that once were identical to mainland counterparts evolved over time, and are now endemic to their island habitat, and found nowhere else.

As human societies and cultures also evolve, so, too, do humans and their brains. It may be a challenge to appreciate, since Buddha walked the planet, just how much the evolution of Asian brains and *mind*, in the context of their societies, cultures, and religious practices and institutions, perhaps may have also occurred, and in a quite different way than it has in the West.

I apologize for bringing up another book. It is the brilliant, and perhaps also controversial to some, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. From the flap: “[P]sychologist Julian Jaynes shows us how ancient peoples from Mesopotamia to Peru could not “think” as we do today, and were therefore not conscious. Unable to introspect, they experienced auditory hallucinations–voices of gods, actually heard as in the Old Testament or the Iliad–which, coming from the brain’s right hemisphere told a person what to do in circumstances of novelty or stress. This ancient mentality is called the bicameral mind.”

His discussion of how books in the Bible, from Samuel to Ecclesiastes, mirror this evolution of the mind I found to be very interesting.

So my point: it is entirely possible that Asians are more naturally adept at Eastern meditation due to evolution, per Jaynes’ theories.

–“I’m frequently amazed at the spiritual naivete of many folks with great credentials.”

That which gets called “Buddha Nature” is not a brain activity. True mediation is when awareness stops being pushed around by whatever fancy the brain and its transmitter substances produce.

Besides, if the most spiritually inclined Asian Buddhists have removed themselves from the gene pool for 2500 years by being celibate, according to your theory, brains in Buddhist countries should be #less# able to meditate through adverse selection… Maybe thats why Buddhism is dying in Asia 🙂

Thanks for the book referral. Sounds interesting. When I was bumming around Oaxaca in the sixties I was very impressed with the consciousness of some of the Zapotec people I encountered along the road. They struck me as very “high.” It was like their minds and even their eyes didn’t focus and pick out individual objects, but maintained what might be called a global perspective. I’ve always suspected that some individuals we see as backward or retarded might actually be in a mental space, that if we experienced it, we’d think was enlightenment.

I also agree there might be a genetic “mind” in groups and species that is capable of surprising adaptions and “memory” that go beyond the individual mind — another topic for a lifetime of research and several books.

Matthias reinforces my point about the ultimate “equality” found in what we call the Buddha Mind — but that doesn’t mean that phenomenal manifestations aren’t still subject to cause and effect (within that Mind), as Hyakujo pointed out in the fox koan.

I’m still skeptical about the claim that Asians are inherently more adept at meditation than Americans. The nature of zazen is such that it quickly goes beyond cultural and even genetic predispositions.

” …. the notion that people from Eastern cultures “get” enlightenment from meditation that Westerners cannot.”

“I’m still skeptical about the claim that Asians are inherently more adept at meditation than Americans.”

Didn’t say these things. Said nothing regarding legitimate enlightenment experiences of anybody to devalue them for anyone. Reported research indicating how much more difficult Eastern meditation has been for Westerners (“To sum up, Western students practice of Eastern meditation techniques is problematic.”). Engler collected data, then reached a conclusion based on analysis. If you meant to infer that Engler was the one your “spiritually naive” comment was about, fine with me, no problem, but I don’t see how, in this particular case, that actually bleeds over onto this research.

For reasons clearly demonstrated earlier in this thread, I had give up all hope for North American Soto Zen. Then I happened to meet Chuck Genkaku Johnnzen Roshi, and now it makes me sad that this genuine Dharma holder is almost completely unknown, and shunned by his peers.

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About Nonin Chowaney

Rev. Nonin Chowaney, an American Zen Master, is a Buddhist priest trained in the Soto tradition of Zen Master Dogen. Nonin was ordained by Rev. Dainin Katagiri in Minnesota and has studied at Tassajara Zen Monastery in California and in Japan at Zuio-ji and Shogo-ji Monasteries. He received formal Dharma Transmission from Rev. Katagiri and has been certified to teach by him and by the Soto Zen Church in Japan.
Nonin lives in Omaha, Nebraska, where he is Abbot of Nebraska Zen Center / Heartland Temple. He is a regular speaker at many schools, colleges, and universities and leads Zen Buddhist retreats and workshops throughout the United States.
Nonin is also an accomplished brush calligrapher. He learned the art while training in Japan and has been practicing it for many years. His work hangs in homes and Zen Temples throughout the world.

About Sweeping Zen

Established in 2009 as a grassroots initiative, Sweeping Zen is a digital archive of information on Zen Buddhism. Featuring in-depth interviews, an extensive database of biographies, news, articles, podcasts, teacher blogs, events, directories and more, this site is dedicated to offering the public a range of views in the sphere of Zen Buddhist thought. We are also endeavoring to continue creating lineage charts for all Western Zen lines, doing our own small part in advancing historical documentation on this fabulous import of an ancient tradition. Come on in with a tea or coffee. You're always bound to find something new.

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