PensFanInDC wrote:What I've noticed is that catholicism is very introverted. It's not as welcoming of new members as other Christian denominations. There are lots of rules and regulations about who can be/is saved and how salvation is received. There is very little evangelism if any at all in the catholic faith outside of foreign missionaries.

This Pope seems to be very open to making Catholicism more open to people and wanting to focus more on spreading the Word to everyone.

It probably would have been better to say that he sounds very un-catholic in his evangelical views. No offense was meant.

That's not always the case. I've heard evangelism preached at many masses. It's just that no one wants to go out and actually do it.

That kind of lends to my point though. Just because it is preached doesn't mean that it exists, although I am sure there are a few who will share their testimony and lead people to Christ (see: Matt Maher). The dude on 700 Club preaches acceptance but also says that Haiti got what it deserves because of his interpretation of their sin.

I think will all the (rightfully historic) coverage about Francis being the first Pope from the Americas, what got lost a little bit in the shuffle is that he was also the first Jesuit to become Pope. The Society of Jesus was instrumental in both the Counter-Reformation and the 2nd Vatican Council, both of which fundamentally transformed the church as we know it. They also have a history of being evangelizers for the Church, going into places without a tradition of Catholicism and converting the masses. In order to acomplish this, they realized that they could not just sit in their chapels and wait for people to come to them, they had to go to the people and serve them in the name of Jesus.

I think in Francis you can see some of this in affect. He is not going to decree drastic change on things like gay marriage, female or married Priests, or contraception. He is just as conservative on those social issues as the past two Popes. But I think you will see him shift focus away from those philosophical treatises and reorient the Church to face out and serve the poor, instead of looking inward to pass judgment on those who do not strictly adhere to the rulebook that they setup for people to live by.

And that would be a positive step forward for the faith in my estimation. If he focuses people more on the needs of the poor, which he has certainly witnessed first-hand in his ministry for many years, the church will be more Christ-like, instead of more judgemental. Jesus didn't judge, he forgave and uplifted those who had fallen.

Last edited by Pucks_and_Pols on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PensFanInDC wrote:What I've noticed is that catholicism is very introverted. It's not as welcoming of new members as other Christian denominations. There are lots of rules and regulations about who can be/is saved and how salvation is received. There is very little evangelism if any at all in the catholic faith outside of foreign missionaries.

This Pope seems to be very open to making Catholicism more open to people and wanting to focus more on spreading the Word to everyone.

It probably would have been better to say that he sounds very un-catholic in his evangelical views. No offense was meant.

That's not always the case. I've heard evangelism preached at many masses. It's just that no one wants to go out and actually do it.

There you are right there. The place to evanglize is not at mass. That is, literally, preaching to the converted. If you want to tell people how to live (which Catholics certainly do) you have to meet them at their level and provide a meaningful impact on their lives to bring them into the fold. I remember in Catholic grade school one of the nuns had a banner proclaiming that you "needed to BE the change you want to see in the world."

So could the Pope just do away withe celibacy thing, if he chose to? I'm told that the Catholic school that I went to no longer has any brothers or nuns teaching there. Maybe the church can sustain traditional outlets like this, but it sure wont be easy.

columbia wrote:So could the Pope just do away withe celibacy thing, if he chose to? I'm told that the Catholic school that I went to no longer has any brothers or nuns teaching there. Maybe the church can sustain traditional outlets like this, but it sure wont be easy.

I would think so. I've been on record for a while with my belief that celibacy is one of the #1 causes of the sex abuse epidemic that has plagued the Catholic Church. It is stupid and unreasonable to deprive your entire church hierarchy from engaging on normal, healthy, and (gasp) blessed marriages.

From what I understand, it would be easy for the Pope to declare that from now on, celibacy would not be required for new priests. The existing Priests would still fall under the rules at the time they were ordained, and to keep the vows they took upon entering the Priesthood.

It would also be easier for the Pope to declare that male priests could be married then it would for him to allow women to become Priests. JPII declared not only that women could not be priests, but that the Church does not even have the authority to do so, even if it wanted to. Obviously the Pope can pretty much do what he wants, but it seems like that one would be tricky to walk back from the hardline that has been already drawn in the recent past.

As to the problem at hand, the Priest shortage, especially in the developed world, is going to be a major challenge for Catholics going forward. One way or another, they are going to need to change how they operate, either with less functioning Priests, or less restrictive vows to bring fresh blood into the ministry.

columbia wrote:So could the Pope just do away withe celibacy thing, if he chose to? I'm told that the Catholic school that I went to no longer has any brothers or nuns teaching there. Maybe the church can sustain traditional outlets like this, but it sure wont be easy.

I would think so. I've been on record for a while with my belief that celibacy is one of the #1 causes of the sex abuse epidemic that has plagued the Catholic Church. It is stupid and unreasonable to deprive your entire church hierarchy from engaging on normal, healthy, and (gasp) blessed marriages.

I agree. So does the Bible...

1 Corinthians 7:1-4Now regarding the questions you asked in your letter. Yes, it is good to abstain from sexual relations. But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband.

The husband should fulfill his wife’s sexual needs, and the wife should fulfill her husband’s needs. The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband gives authority over his body to his wife.

I guess since I went to a very small parish that didn't have much in terms of funding for missionary and evangelical work, and also went to a spiritan university that focus on helping the sick and needy rather than trying to "save" people by getting them to join the church, I might have a different perspective on what the church should do and what's considered "catholic" or "un-catholic"

columbia wrote:So could the Pope just do away withe celibacy thing, if he chose to? I'm told that the Catholic school that I went to no longer has any brothers or nuns teaching there. Maybe the church can sustain traditional outlets like this, but it sure wont be easy.

I would think so. I've been on record for a while with my belief that celibacy is one of the #1 causes of the sex abuse epidemic that has plagued the Catholic Church. It is stupid and unreasonable to deprive your entire church hierarchy from engaging on normal, healthy, and (gasp) blessed marriages.

While I don't disagree about the pointlessness of the ban, I think it's massively dangerous to ascribe the sexual deviance of so many of the clergy to celibacy. Celibacy doesn't cause pedophilia. It's not like these priests are just sitting around feeling randy when an altar boy walks in and all of a sudden they're like, "Hey now........"

If you did away with the celibacy and marriage rules concerning ordination in the Catholic church, I assert that there would be little to no change in the rates of sexual abuse perpetrated by clergy.

PensFanInDC wrote:I'm sure you do being catholic and all, and it's probably a more educated perspective.

For the record, i'm not catholic. I was raised catholic. I find many faults with the church as a whole (as I do with any established religion), but to put a big blanket over any particular religion and say "that's very un-*insert religion here* of them" is a little unfair to many members of that belief system (unless of course we're talking about WBC or something like that).

I don't think it would completely eliminate it, but I do believe it is a major cause. When you forcefully shoehorn an adult male into an unnatural lifestyle in which they are completely forbidden to carry on a normal, healthy sexual relationship, I do believe they will be more likely to end up turning to deviancy.

PensFanInDC wrote:I'm sure you do being catholic and all, and it's probably a more educated perspective.

For the record, i'm not catholic. I was raised catholic. I find many faults with the church as a whole (as I do with any established religion), but to put a big blanket over any particular religion and say "that's very un-*insert religion here* of them" is a little unfair to many members of that belief system (unless of course we're talking about WBC or something like that).

I see what you're saying. Maybe "He sounds very differently-catholic" would be a better choice of words

shafnutz05 wrote:I don't think it would completely eliminate it, but I do believe it is a major cause. When you forcefully shoehorn an adult male into an unnatural lifestyle in which they are completely forbidden to carry on a normal, healthy sexual relationship, I do believe they will be more likely to end up turning to deviancy.

Not to mention the copious amounts of one on one time that priests and alterboys tend to have compared to other members of the church.

shafnutz05 wrote:I don't think it would completely eliminate it, but I do believe it is a major cause. When you forcefully shoehorn an adult male into an unnatural lifestyle in which they are completely forbidden to carry on a normal, healthy sexual relationship, I do believe they will be more likely to end up turning to deviancy.

tifosi77 wrote:While I don't disagree about the pointlessness of the ban, I think it's massively dangerous to ascribe the sexual deviance of so many of the clergy to celibacy. Celibacy doesn't cause pedophilia. It's not like these priests are just sitting around feeling randy when an altar boy walks in and all of a sudden they're like, "Hey now........"

If you did away with the celibacy and marriage rules concerning ordination in the Catholic church, I assert that there would be little to no change in the rates of sexual abuse perpetrated by clergy.

I tend to agree. Pedophilia isn't going to be "cured" by marriage. I think many pedophiles go into the church because they're fighting their urges and feel a life of celibacy is the easiest way to attempt to abstain from their urges.

shafnutz05 wrote:I don't think it would completely eliminate it, but I do believe it is a major cause. When you forcefully shoehorn an adult male into an unnatural lifestyle in which they are completely forbidden to carry on a normal, healthy sexual relationship, I do believe they will be more likely to end up turning to deviancy.

No one forces the priests into it. It's their choice.

I just don't understand why someone has to remain celibate in order to preach the word of God.

shafnutz05 wrote:I don't think it would completely eliminate it, but I do believe it is a major cause. When you forcefully shoehorn an adult male into an unnatural lifestyle in which they are completely forbidden to carry on a normal, healthy sexual relationship, I do believe they will be more likely to end up turning to deviancy.

I would be more inclined to blame the church’s teachings on homosexuality. Let’s say you are a devoutly religious boy, but you are also attracted to men, and that’s something your religion teaches is sinful and wrong. Not wanting to displease your God, you look for a way to suppress those feelings. How about a job where you actually take an oath not to have sex? If you’re that conflicted young man, that might sound like a great solution.

I’d be more inclined to blame the celibacy oath itself if we had priests sleeping with the wives of their parishioners, frequenting hookers, or having inappropriate contact with young women. But the vast majority of the abuse cases have been homosexual. Only maybe 10% of the population is homosexual, but way more than that percentage of priest-abuse cases are same-sex. Unless we want to believe that a whole lot of priests who would otherwise be straight men somehow develop an attraction to boys once they reach a certain level of horniness, I think there’s something else going on besides a mere lack of sex.

Last edited by Shyster on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shafnutz05 wrote:I don't think it would completely eliminate it, but I do believe it is a major cause. When you forcefully shoehorn an adult male into an unnatural lifestyle in which they are completely forbidden to carry on a normal, healthy sexual relationship, I do believe they will be more likely to end up turning to deviancy.

Deviance in the context you are stating is getting aroused by Japanese tentacle pr0n, or trading 'prison favors' while in jail because that's your only outlet. Pedophilia is a psychological disorder, one that's likely related to a physical abnormality in the brain that's present from birth and may be genetic in nature.

Shyster wrote:I’d be more inclined to blame the celibacy oath itself if we had priests sleeping with the wives of their parishioners, frequenting hookers, or having inappropriate contact with young women. But the vast majority of the abuse cases have been homosexual. Only maybe 10% of the population is homosexual, but way more than that percentage of priest-abuse cases are same-sex. Unless we want to believe that a whole lot of priests who would otherwise be straight men somehow develop an attraction to boys once they reach a certain level of horniness, I think there’s something else going on besides a mere lack of sex.

Pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing. Just over half of the 10,000+ reported abuse cases between 1950 and 2002 involved victims in their very early teens. Most of those are going to be post-puberty, which would make it a case of homosexual child abuse. That's not pedophilia. But but many in that 11-14 year old group will be pre-pubescent, and some of the victims have been pre-kindergarten age, and that's got nothing to do with homosexuality.

The John Jay report indicated that 19% of the abuse cases involving clergy had a female victim, and that the female victims tended to be younger than the males. And fully 1/5 of the male victims were under 10. That's not homosexuality, so there's a lot more going on.

Pucks_and_Pols wrote:I think will all the (rightfully historic) coverage about Francis being the first Pope from the Americas, what got lost a little bit in the shuffle is that he was also the first Jesuit to become Pope.

I knew that he was the first Jesuit but did not know that he was the first Pope from the Americas. All of the stories I saw from when he was named were about him being the first Jesuit.