Baptism – Don’t Die Without It!

Question #3: What If I Died Before I Could Get To The Water For Baptism?

If the water pipes broke and the baptistry was bone dry, would my salvation have to wait until the plumber showed up?

If I were to die before then, would I go to hell?

If obedience to water baptism is the means of forgiveness of sins, then I would.

This “question” is an attempt to raise doubt over the biblical teaching on baptism by appealing to emotionalism. It produces a negative emotional response to contemplate the fate of a person who wanted to be baptized but died before they could make it to the water. However, emotionalism doesn’t determine biblical doctrine. The Bible does!

It matters not one whit how I feel about something as to whether it is sound doctrine or not. How does the fact that the vast majority of the human population, from creation to judgment day, being lost make me feel? (Matt. 7:13, 14). Not good! Does that affect the truth of it at all? No! Likewise, how I feel about someone dying before they make it to the water, terrible as it is, has no affect whatsoever on the biblical teaching of baptism.

This is a very common question raised by those who are trying to find any way around the necessity of baptism that they can. I usually ask a question in response; “How old where they?” This brings the discussion back to facts and out of emotional appeals to abandon the word. “Well, what difference does that make?” The difference it makes is that the person is implying, from their “question,” that it would be God’s fault the person was lost. That is, if baptism is essential to salvation, and the person dies before they could be baptized, then it would be God’s fault they were lost. So, I ask, “how old were they?” No matter what the person says, though they usually say elderly, I will say that the person had “x” number of years to obey the gospel before they died and they didn’t. So, say a person of 50 dies on the way to the water and someone says, “well they wanted to get baptized so they are saved.” That means, according to the person’s reasoning, they are saved because they made a “last minute” decision to be baptized after a lifetime of disobedience. No, my response is, if they died on the way to the baptistry then they waited too late to decide to obey the gospel.

Let me ask some questions from biblical examples and see what the answer would be. If Naaman had died on his way to the Jordan would he have died a leper? (2 Kings 5:8-14). If the blind man died before washing in Siloam would he have died blind? (John 9:6-7). In both of these examples, among many, it clearly states that they were healed after they obeyed. No one would look at examples like these and say that if they died before they obeyed that they would have died anything other than what they were at the time of their death. When it comes to baptism for the remission of sins there is no apparent physical condition being healed. It is a spiritual condition that is being treated. However, the same principle of blessing after obedience, not before, is true.

In Romans 6:3-5, Paul says,

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection…”

This passage makes it as clear as it can be made that the “newness of life” comes after baptism, not before. However, those who deny the necessity of baptism say that the newness of life can (and does) begin before baptism. Where is the example of such? No passage in the New Testament even comes close to implying salvation prior to baptism.

Some try to use the thief on the cross as an example of one being saved without baptism (Luke 23:39-42).

Here again, I like to ask some questions in return to such an attempt. I ask, “what did Jesus say to the thief?” Without fail they always reply with the text, “To day shalt thou be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Then I simply ask, “OK, what did the thief say to Jesus?” And it is very rare if the person can tell me. It seems to me that, if a person is going to base their salvation on the example of the thief, they would be very clear on what happened there.

The fact is, when a person uses the thief on the cross for an example of one being saved without baptism, they are making a supposition with no basis in fact and with no supporting evidence whatsoever. Now let me be very clear, it doesn’t matter whether the thief had been baptized or not. Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins (Matthew 9:6). However, Jesus is not on earth forgiving sin today. He is in heaven at the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3). The only way to be saved today is by giving obedience to Christ through his word (Hebrews 5:9; 1 Peter 1:23-25). With that said, when we examine the evidence of the thief on the cross, there is more reason to believe that he had been baptized than to believe that he had not.

The reason I ask what the thief said to Jesus is this, it shows that he did not just come to his faith while on the cross. He was a person who knew who and what Jesus was. The way he addressed Jesus and his knowledge about what Jesus would do demonstrate that he was either a follower of Christ who had fallen away into thievery; or, a thief who had heard and obeyed and was suffering the consequences of thievery committed prior to his repentance. Whatever the case my be, it cannot be that he was just encountering Jesus for the first time there on the cross. Notice:

The thief called Jesus “Lord” – a term used by Jesus’ disciples. At what point in the course of his being crucified and hanging on the cross would the thief have heard and/or seen any evidence that Jesus was Lord? He would have already had to have known this.

The thief asked Jesus to “remember” him. Why would the thief have expected Jesus to be able to “remember” him? Jesus was in the same condition the thief was, they were both dying on a cross! If the thief was just encountering Jesus for the first time on the cross when would he have heard anything about Jesus being raised from the dead? And, even if he had, what evidence would he have seen during the crucifixion to cause him to believe it? Clearly, the thief had already learned that the Christ would rise from the dead and, thus, could “remember” the thief after they both died on the cross.

The thief knew Jesus would have a kingdom. If he was just encountering Jesus for the first time on the cross, when would he have learned anything about the kingdom? Why would he be expecting a dying man to come into a kingdom? Clearly, he had already heard the teaching of Christ and his kingdom prior to being on the cross.

When we see this very clear evidence of the thief’s prior knowledge of who and what Jesus was, it becomes a very strong likelihood that he had been baptized. Notice, “Jerusalem, and all Judaea” went out to be baptized by John in the Jordan (Matt. 3:5, 6). Of course, this doesn’t literally mean that every single individual in this region was baptized. It is hyperbole to emphasize the very large numbers of people who were being baptized. But; even though John was baptizing so many people that it was said he baptized “Jerusalem, and all Judaea;” the disciples of Christ baptized even more than John did! (John 4:1, 2). There were a lot of people being baptized!

Also, those who were being baptized were being told to produce “fruits worthy of repentance” (Luke 3:8). So, how exactly would a thief, converted by the preaching of John and/or Jesus, bare “fruits worthy of repentance”? He would certainly have to stop being a thief! He would also have to make restitution for his thievery. It very well may be that the thief was on the cross because he had repented and been baptized.

Now, I have presented a supposition also – I believe the thief was baptized. The other side presents their supposition – that the thief was not baptized. Neither supposition can be stated as a matter of doctrine because the Bible simply doesn’t say. However, a supposition is only as good as the supporting evidence. Which supposition has the weight of evidence and which not only has no evidence but actually contradicts the known facts?

Is the thief on the cross an example of one who was saved without baptism? No, he is not! He is an example of one who confessed faith in the Lord and was saved by the Lord. Whether he was baptized or not is irrelevant. Not only because the Lord forgave him while he was still on earth but also because the thief died before Christ established his church and added those who were baptized to it (Matthew 28:19; Acts 2:38, 41, 47).

Let’s make application of the thief to the question at hand. What if the thief had died before he asked the Lord to remember him in paradise? What if he really wanted to say it but died before he could? What then? At what point will a person say that one died before doing what was necessary to be saved?

What if a person died in the process of having a Bible study before they heard the word to believe? (Romans 10:17). Could they be saved without believing, even though they would have if they had the time to study before dying? Or, if they had studied but had not yet confessed Christ? (Romans 10:9, 10). Maybe they were on their way to confess Christ but died before they could. What then? The Bible says a person must hear the word (Romans 10:17; Hebrews 11:6), believe what it says about Christ and his kingdom (John 8:24; Acts 8:12), repent of your sins (Acts 2:38; 17:30), confess faith in Christ (Romans 10:9, 10), and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16), in order to be saved. So, at what point in the process did God not mean what he said? Did he say that a person who believes and is baptized would be saved (Mark 16:16) but really only mean that a person has to be believe to be saved?

I have heard deceitful denominational teachers use the Philippian jailor as an example of one being told that faith only would save him. This is a deceitful and satanic use of Scripture! Every time a denominational preacher quotes Acts 16:31 to say that faith only is the means of salvation they are twisting the Scripture to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16). When they stop at verse 31 with their “plan of salvation” they have stopped before the jailor had even heard the word of God so that he could believe in Christ (Acts 16:32; Romans 10:17). They stop before the jailor repented of his part in persecuting God’s servants (Acts 16:33; 17:30). They stop before the jailor was baptized into Christ for the remission of his sins (Acts 16:33; Galatians 3:26, 27; Romans 6:3-5). They stop before the jailor was rejoicing in his salvation (Acts 16:34; 8:37-39). Notice, it doesn’t even say that the jailor had done what Paul told him he needed to do to be saved until verse 34, after he had been baptized! Paul told him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (31), then preached Christ to him (32), the jailor believed, repented and was baptized (33), and then it says he was a believer (34). I would to God that denominationalists would stop abusing this beautiful passage!

Let’s make application of the jailor to the question at hand. At what point during the process could the jailor have died a saved man? What if he died when he originally planned to kill himself? (Acts 16:27). He was obviously one who would obey the gospel given the chance. So, if he had fallen on his sword before having the chance to obey would he have been saved? He had not even heard the gospel yet! (Romans 1:16). When had he obeyed the doctrine of Christ for salvation? Not until he had been baptized into Christ!

It is not a pleasant thought, to think of one dying before they obey the gospel. But bad feelings about someone’s death won’t save them! Only obedience to Christ can save. And it cannot be said that a person has obeyed until they have been baptized. As unpleasant as it may sound, if a person dies “on the way to the water” then they waited too late to obey.

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Randy,Are you really going to make such an argument? Psalm 51 is a Psalm of petitence. It is not all to be taken literally. David is speaking from godly sorrow, realizing the horrible nature of the sin he has committed. He understands the purpose behind the sacrifices and the law itself is to teach not only the Hebrews, but all men that God is looking for that contrite heart, a heart that hates sin as much as God does. But David’s realization of this did not negate God’s requirement for sacrifice. The same is true of Saul – yet Saul thought sacrifice was the key, he didn’t understand as David did. However Saul did not have that contrite heart as David did. (1 Samuel 15:22) “To obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”
God required BOTH under the Old Law as David goes on to say in vs. 18 of Psalm 51 – coupled with his contrite heart “Thou shalt be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offerings, and whole burnt offerings: then shall they offer bullocks upon Thine altar.”
God was not looking for Ritual – which is what the Jews did during the days of the Judges, and later after Rehoboam became king. God has always required a contrite heart, a heart that contains godly sorrow, a heart of love and submission, BEFORE He would accept the sacrifice. (Matthew 5:21-24).
Randy, God has never been a respector of persons, that would go against His character. We can’t pull passages out of context with what other passages tell us, and try to make an exception – that is not honest Bible interpretation. I would hope you would agree.

thanks Norm for your ideas that a person must be baptized first in order to get saved. I guess the Bible doesn’t say that. Romans 10;13- For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall CALL on the NAME of the Lord shall be save.’ doesn’t say here to be baptized first to get saved but it says call.’ Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also TRUSTED, after that ye HEARD the word of truth,the gospel of you salvation: In whom also after that ye BELIEVED ye were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise.” here again we are not sealed with the Holy Spirit by water baptism but when we TRUST and BELIEVED. Acts 10:43-To him give all the prophets witness,that through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him shall RECEIVE REMISSION of sin. So baptism is not necessary for remission of sin. Romans 6. is not talking about the baptism but it talks about the newness of life. And Romans 6 is not about the water baptism neither. It is about a person who believed in Christ must baptized to His death 6: 3-6, Galatians 2:20, 5:24, Matthew 16:24 Which is mean, if a person who in Christ must die daily. In other words He must baptized in Christ death daily. It would be contradictory of Peter to proclaim salvation in Christ only; then state you have to be baptized to saved-Acts 4:12. John 3:14-16,18,36- That whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish,but have an eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begoten son ,that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish,but have an everlasting life. He that BELIEVETH on him is not condemned: but he BELIEVETH not is condemned already, because he hath not BELIEVED in the name of the begotten Son of God. ‘So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing is the word of God. Romans 10:17.
No one ever saved by the water baptism, it is the blood of Christ shed on Calvary’s cross. John 1:12 But as many as RECEIVED him, to them he gave POWER to become the SONS of God, even to them that BELIEVE on his name. ‘ Here is very clear, we are became the sons of God when we believed on him-not man’s baptism.

Men saved without baptism. Their sins are forgiven without water baptism. Luke 7:47-50, Luke 18:42-43, Matthew 9:2-6.
If a person trying to coerce that salvation is by water baptism, he is better than Saul of Tarsus and to the young ruler of Israel.
These two men were failed because they were trying to get the salvation by works.
Read. Luke 18:18-24..He kept the commandments but never inherit the kingdom of God.
Saul of Tarsus- A Pharisee or a ruler of Israel. John 3;1, Acts 4:8, Acts 23:6, Acts 26:5. vs 6-7. Acts 22:3, 5:34, 26:4-5- he certainly have known the commandments. Phil.3:4-6- He lived in accord with the commandments of the law.
Conclusion. Luke 18:23-And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful:for he was very rich. Not anger but sorrow. He genuinely wanted eternal life.H e loved himself more than others. He would miss eternal life if he did not choose Jesus. He wanted eternal life but not on those terms. So he walked away.
Paul- Acts 9:5- Jesus confronted him in the road of Damascus.. Something had been eating at the man and he was having a hard time fighting against it. Match that words Jesus used as the rich man ruler walked away. Luke 18:24-How HARDLY shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
When Paul was converted,he testified that he had kept the law (good works,baptism etc.) but had to count all that as worthless and do ONE THING in order to be saved and that was to KNOW Jesus Christ.-Philippians 3:7-10.

There is one additional point to ponder here. When the young ruler came to Jesus he said, WHAT MUST I DO? and Jesus said ONE THING.

Later, a man asked Paul, WHAT MUST I DO? And he answered , BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Thanks jhade for your comments, but like so many people in the religious world today you have misapplied the science of Bible interpretation. You have only pointed to the passages that you assume make your point, but do not give the entire picture of what one must do in order to be saved.

Surely, you do not believe in Faith Only salvation do you? It appears that’s what you believe, but the faith alone doctrine is an oxymoron.

God has not only left us His Word, so that we could know that sin exists, and that we are separated from Him, and that through His grace He has left us with a way to come back to Him by being in His beloved Son Jesus Christ. God has also defined terms that He uses in His words, so to the Bible we must turn to know what phrases and terms mean.

You mentioned “calling upon the name of the Lord.” Well, what is this calling upon the name of the Lord? Many of your belief will go immediately to Romans 10:9-10 and say THAT is calling upon the name of the Lord. But that is not true. Paul is merely speaking of ONE facet of the actions we are to take to obtain the benefits of Christ’s death – and that is the great confession. Confessing before others that we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the God/man, the Messiah (1 John 2:22; 2 John 7).

God’s Word clearly defines for us what “calling upon the name of the Lord” is as we turn to Paul’s conversion in Acts 22:16, “AND NOW WHY TARRIEST THOU? ARISE, AND BE BAPTIZED, AND WASH AWAY THY SINS, CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD”

Therefore, calling upon the name of the Lord refers to baptism! NOT a sinners prayer! NOT asking Jesus into ones heart! NOT simply trusting Jesus as one’s savior!

Let me ask you this question: “If baptism is not necessary for ones salvation, then why is it FOR the remission of sins? Why was Paul told that baptism would WASH AWAY his sins? How could Paul have been saved already, without his sins being washed away? Please give me an answer for this. The Greek word “eis” (for) means “in order to receive,” it is always looking forward to the result, not backward to what has already happened.

The examples you use in the gospel accounts, were men and women who were under the Old Law. The gospel had not yet come into effect. But you err in trying to make the point that baptism is not necessary today, because these people weren’t baptized. While Jesus was on earth – BEFORE His law came into effect, He could forgiven sins anyway He desired, for He is God! But there were many who were baptized for the remission of sins by John the Baptizer and by Jesus’ disciples.

I know that you hate ‘works’ salvation, and we do too! Because God hates it. But “works” Salvation which is a salvation based upon our own merit or doctrine, and salvation by obedient acts are too different things. Whether you want to call them acts, or works, it is the same thing. There are works of men, such as your case and faith only salvation, and there are works of God, in our case, where we OBEY God’s commands in order to obtain His saving grace. God has commanded that we hear His gospel in order to receive faith (a work, an act on our part – Romans 10:17). God has commanded that ALL men repent (a work, an act on our part – Acts 17:30)). God has commanded that ALL men believe (a work, an act on our part – John 6:28-29). God has commanded that ALL men confess His Son (a work, an act on our part – Romans 10:9-10). God has commanded that ALL men be immersed in water in order to receive forgiveness of our sins (a work, an act on our part – 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 2:38; et al). God has commanded that ALL men live a faithful life unto the end (works, actions on our part – 1 Cor. 15:58; Rev. 2:10).

God has said that we are justified by WORKS and NOT by faith only (James 2:24,26). So far you have a dead faith, but since faith is a WORK, then you have a good beginning to BEING saved in the future. You just need to hear the gospel, and not a creed book, or denominational doctrine, you then need to repent, then confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and finally be baptized in order to contact the saving blood of Jesus Christ, thereby calling upon the name of the Lord, and at that point God will add you to the saved, the church of Christ.

Hey Mike,
thanks for your ideas about calling about the Lord is refer for baptism.
But sorry I’m not convince of that idea that calling of the Lord is baptism. Romans 10. and Acts 22: is different accounts. Most people are confuse to interpret the Scripture because they mixed up everything without reading the context.
You said that only baptism can wash away our sins. So how you can explain 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from unrighteousness.- Is there any baptism is required here? Nope. Now i will share you about my idea of Acts 2:37-38′ First lets find out the speaker this time’ of course it was Peter vss 14 and 37 -38 ‘. 2nd- To whom is Peter speaking? nation Israel v 22 and 36. Now let us read the scripture. verse 37- Now when they heard this,they were pricked in their heart,and said unto Peter and to the rest of the Apostles, Men and brethren WHAT SHALL WE DO? ‘
Note- For what? Nothing. Just,” What must we do?”. Nobody there is asking how to get saved. The very idea, taking a man to Acts 2:38 and saying that is the plan of salvation. Nobody in Acts 2:38 is asking how to get saved. That’s the nation Israel asking Peter, ‘ In view of the FACT we crucified our Messiah, WHAT SHOULD WE DO?” And the question is not WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?”
The question is,” WHAT SHOULD WE DO in view of FACT that we nailed HIM?” Thats the question. And the answer to that is, verse 38- Repent, and be baptized everyone of you IN the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you( Israel), and unto your children( Israel) , and to all that afar off ( Jews in the dispersion), even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
In Acts 2 we are dealing, not with John’s baptism to Israel BEFORE the crucifixion, but with Simon Peter’s baptism after crucifixion. It is given to the nation Israel.
Majority say,” Well, I can look around there and find salvation in it.” My answer is yes, you can find salvation in it after you have read Pauline epistles. Take you Bible and look at Acts 2:5, 14, 22 verse 36,down through there. That’s message to the nation Israel. Simon’s Peter baptism in Acts 2 is not for poor, lost hell-bound sinner trying to get to heaven, but it is for a nation that has hanged and killed their Messiah.
Repent(change of mind about the Christ you crucified with the wicked hands) hands of unbelief Acts 2:23) and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus for remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

WHO? The Nation, The nation , the nation
Mike , there isn’t a man or woman in this era that can go up and get in that water and be” baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sins” and get the Holy Ghost by doing it. That verse there says if you are” baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sins ” you will GET ‘ the GIFT of the Holy Ghost,” and you well NOT!
I been watching Norm’s lecture about ”Are people baptized in the Holy Spirit”-
He said;
1. Holy Spirit is promised to the Apostles.
a. To guide the Apostles
b. To confirm what was preached
c. To confirm God’s acceptance of the Gentiles
And all of these were fulfilled, So why you take Acts 2:38 is still active, if nobody would receive the Holy Ghost today ??? There is contradiction here.

Mike, There are 3 questions in the book Acts and those 3 questions are found in Acts 2, Acts 16, Acts 9.
1. In Acts 2- Its Israel” Men and Brethren, and WHAT SHALL WE DO.
2. In Acts 16, It’s an old, unsaved Gentile, not even a Jew, an unsaved Greek, a Philippian jailer( and if we wanted to find our place in the book of Acts we would not find our place in Acts 2; we find our place in Acts 16). After all, we are not even of ” the House hold of Cornelius,” on the continent, in Caesaria and Palestine; we are from the mainland.
Acts 16:31- Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Thats the promise.
Mike, 3 questions-back in Acts 9- When a man who was already saved fell down before the Lord, and that man said, ” Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?” And he said,” Go into the city, an it shall be told thee what thou must do”‘ And then he got baptized.
3 Questions
1.Unsaved Jew,” Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO?
2.Unsaved Gentile, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?
3 Saved Christian,” LORD WHAT WILT THOU HAVE ME TO DO?

Everyone of them has different answer. Unsaved Israel’ WHAT SHALL WE DO? ” you have to repent of crucifying Christ and get baptized in HIS name. Unsaved Gentile.” WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO STAY OUT OF HELL?” you got to believe on Jesus Christ Christ. Saved person,” LORD WHAT WILT THOU HAVE ME TO DO?” Get up and go to somebody that’s got a Book, and they will tell you what to do. It will shown you what to do. Three questions, three different answers.

Mike, if you noticed in Acts 22:16 that you used that baptism is essential for salvation, And washing away our sins is not really true. Why because Paul is already chosen by God whether he takes the baptism or not. Acts 22:14.
Baptism is not essential for washing away our sins, water baptism cannot wash away our sin but it wash off the dirt of our body.
a.1 John 1:7-The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin.(not water baptism)
b. 1 Cor.6:11- And such were some of you: but ye are WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.( washed, sanctified, and justified not by water baptism)
c. Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood the forgiveness of sins,according to the riches of his grace.( not of water baptism)
d. Ephesians 2:8-9- For by GRACE (not water baptism) are ye SAVED through Faith, and not YOURSELVES( man efforts) it is the gift of God. Not of your WORKS(plural) lest any man should boast.
After you got saved” we have to keep the good works- Ephesians .2:10, Matthew. 5:16.
e. Hebrews.9:22- Without shedding of blood is no remission.( not water baptism).
f. Colossians 1:14 – In whom we have REDEMPTION through his blood even the FORGIVENESS of SINS.( not water baptism)
g. Revelation 1:5 ‘ Unto him that loved us, and WASHED us from our SINS in his own blood.( without water baptism)
NOTE: Apostle Paul was sent not to baptized but to preach the gospel. Because the gospel can chance lives and even culture not the water baptism. ‘ 1 Corinthians 1:17- For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the GOSPEL not with wisdom of words lest the cross of Christ should be made none effect.
G-od’s
O-wn
S-on
P-urchased
E-tenal
L-ife
So, Paul was sent to preach the GOSPEL not the water baptism because the Gospel has a power to transform the human life.
I believe that salvation is not gain by the merits of man but its only by grace. Ephesians 2:5 -By grace ye are saved. Acts 15:11- But we believe that through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
If baptism is the only way to wash away my sin, does it mean i must take water baptism everyday because I committed sin? through my 5 senses. How about you Mike, since after of your baptism, don’t you commit any single sin?

Now let’s talk about James 2: 17-24 that most people quoted that salvation through faith without works is dead. ” verses 17-18 -Even so faith,if it hath not of works,is dead,being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and i have works.( So the issue is not what a man has but what he says he has) shew me thy faith without thy works , and I will shew thee mt faith by works.( To which the writer answers, don’t SAY it SHOW me.
a. v19 -21 ‘ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
God had declared Abraham righteous in Genesis 12-15. So what is this justification? I t is SHEW ME matter, that a man who is justified in hte eyes of God might also be justified in the eyes of men.
b. vss 22-23’ Seest ( SHOW ME) thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?( Complete). A nd the scripture was fulfilled which saith Abraham believe God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.( imputed righteousness by faith, friendship by works). Y e see then( SHOW ME) how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
NOW I would no dare stand that up as a private interpretation but we will allow other scriptures to bear out the proof view.
Of the Lord Jesus Christ the Bible says, ” For he hath made him to be sin for us, WHO KNEW NO SIN; that we might be made the righteous of God in him- 2 Corinthians 5:21”. S o Jesus Christ never sinned and certainly did not need to be saved. Yet 1 Timothy 3:16 says, and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, JUSTIFIED IN HTE SPIRIT, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believest on in the world, receiveth up into glory.
So the Lord Jesus Christ was justified. That is, He was declared righteous by those who observed HIs good works. And even Abraham’s faith was made perfect by his outward, observable righteousness, so the word of God says the Lord Jesus, and being MADE PERFECT, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Hebrews 5:9”
In Addition Psalms 51:4- Against thee, thee only, have i sinned, ans done this evil in thy sight: THAT THOU MIGHTEST BE JUSTIFIED when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
In like manner think on these words from Luke 7:29. And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, JUSTIFIED GOD, being baptized with the baptism of John.

Here is the proof the man is not justified by works. Salvation is not by works. If salvation or a man is being justified by water baptism then does it mean” The God the Father and the Son were saved by works?
I do believe that water baptism is only required when you are saved.
a. Acts 8:36-38- Eunuch- What thou hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, IF THOU BELIEVEST with all thine HEART…

thanks for your response. I must add, “Most people are confused in their interpretation of Scripture because they mix up everything without reading the context.” You certainly fit that bill.

Your argument that Romans 10 and Acts 22 are different accounts. Different accounts of What? Different accounts in what way? Don’t just make a statement that appears to give an answer (which it does not do), prove your point.

It is true that Romans 10 is different from Acts 22, not because they don’t fit God’s plan of salvation, but because Acts 22 as are all chapters of that book, accounts of people being converted to Christ. Romans on the other hand is written to people who have already done these things (heard, believed, repented, confessed and baptized). It is interesting how you discount verses in Acts that discuss salvation, just because it doesn’t fit your pre-conceived ideas.

In Romans 10 Paul is talking to “Brethren,” “Christians,” those already in a saved state, whereas Acts 22 is discussing the process required of Paul IN ORDER for him to receive salvation.

As for 1 John 1:9 – how is this to be explained you ask? Well, if you would maintain the context as you pointed out people often do not, to WHOM is the letter written? Again, it is written to people who have already been saved – Christians. Therefore, John is writing to these Christians encouraging them to remain faithful, to continue walking in the light, and reminding them that as long as they CONTINUALLY walk in the light, day after day, THEN and only THEN will His blood continue to cleanse them, when they are faithful to confess their sins. This confessing has nothing to do with an alien sinner, but with Christians.

Of course there is no baptism required here, because they have already been baptized in order to be saved. Let’s keep the context.

Now lets look at Acts 2:22-47. I hate to call it here, but anyone who has to go to such lengths to twist the idea behind this text, is being dishonest about the truth. To say that the people did not SPECIFICALLY say “what must we do to be saved?” is nothing short of treachery. I truly feel sorry for you needing to go this far to TRY and disprove the clear teaching of the Scriptures.

I realize that the devil is very good at what he does, and has convinced a multitude to believe that there are two separate plans of salvation – one for the Jew and another for the Gentile. Where that comes from is certainly from the pits of Satan’s abode, and not the Word of God.

I don’t deny that the gospel was to be preached FIRST to the Jews, because they had been God’s chosen people for centurys, and God was giving them the first opportunity. But you do greatly err to say that this was not a plan of salvation for lost hell-bound sinners, but for a nation that had crucified the Messiah!???? Give me a little break!!

Prove it! don’t just make the accusation, prove it!

The gospel FIRST began to be preached in Jerusalem on Pentecost in 30AD. This was foretold by the prophets as well as Jesus Himself. Acts chapter 2 is where the gospel is first preached and the church of Christ begun (Luke 24:46-49; Isaiah 2:2-3).

The Gospel plan of salvation was to be given to the Jews first (Romans 1:16-17). It is interesting to note that Peter told the Jews and Gentile proselytes “SAVE yourselves from this crooked generation” (vs. 40) “Then they that gladly received his word were BAPTIZED” vs. 41 “and the Lord added to the church daily those being saved” vs. 47. Now please tell me again – the people who heard Peter were not asking what they needed to do to be saved? Absolutely they were! It was not for a nation of people alone – it was for everyone! Acts 2:10 says of those present that day – “strangers of Rome, Jews AND proselytes,” More than just A nation.

The Book of Acts is the book of conversions. It is the bridge between the Old Testament law and the New Covenant of Christ! The New covenant began to be preached to the Jews first, giving them first opportunity to be saved, but later their refusal caused Paul to say he was now giving the Gentiles a chance – (Acts 13:46).

I’ve never heard such dishonesty with the Scriptures.

As for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of the Holy Spirit, they are two different things. No contradiction. Only the apostles and then Cornelius received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, no one else. but the gift of the Holy Spirit is given to all who obey God, as a seal of approval (Ephesians 1:13-14).

Again, you abuse the context of the Scriptures. Acts shows men and women being converted to Christ. Jews first and then Gentiles. If it were not for the book of Acts, we would not have the other letters written to the people converted in Acts.

Acts 9 – Paul was NOT saved on the road to Damascus. The Lord told him what to do – go into the city and it shall be told thee what to do. What was the telling? Ananias would later tell Paul what he needed to do to be saved! There is NOTHING in chapter 9 that says Paul was saved before he went into the city as directed by Jesus. Chapter 9 gives a PORTION of what happened, while chapter 22 gives us as Paul Harvey would say, “the rest of the story.” Ananias was told the Jesus to go to Paul, he laid his hands on him and Paul received his sight and was baptized (9:11-18). In Acts 22 Paul tells of his conversion how Ananias came to him and said, “Receive thy sight, for thou shalt be His witness unto all men, and now why tarriest thou? Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:13-16). It was not until Paul had been baptized that he was saved, for it was not until he was baptized that his sins were washed away!

Acts 2 – Unsaved Jews – received the gospel first!
Acts 9 – Unsaved Paul – received the gospel, obeyed Jesus by repenting and being baptized, and was then saved.
Acts 16- Unsaved Gentile – received the gospel after the Jews as prophecy said would be the case, and was baptized in order to have his sins washed away.

You say that the baptism of Paul was un-necessary because he had been chosen by God. The fact that Paul had been chosen, did not negate his requirement to obey. By your logic, that means that he did not have to repent, believe or confess anything. If not, why not?

You argue that baptism does not wash away our sins. You nor anyone else who argues this are not arguing with me, you are calling the Holy Spirit a liar! The Holy Spirit said that baptism was for the purpose of washing away our sins and we have no authority to discount what He has said. If you want to blaspheme the Holy Spirit that is your business, but be prepared to answer for it on Judgment Day!

You are correct that the blood of Christ is what washes away our sins, but what you fail to realize is that the waters of baptism is the HOW in our contacting that saving blood. Don’t ask me why God chose this way to gain the benefits of Christ’s saving blood, but He did and we must obey His command. What do you think “washed” refers to in 1 Corinthians 6:11? It refers to baptism!

You can continue to quote verse after verse all day long about the blood and I will agree with you. But the way we contact that saving blood is through water baptism! God has always used water as a method for contracting purification. I don’t question the why, I just do it.

That acrostic of the gospel is cute. But it does not negate the REQUIREMENT for baptism.

Now you are going to tell me that you believe you are saved by “Grace alone?” I thought you believed you were saved by “Faith alone?” those are the verses you have been using up until now. I’m confused, which is it? Grace or faith?

Now you are getting ridculous with. This is the problem when people don’t know how to properly harmonize the Scriptures. they get themselves into a dilemma because they are unable to discern how the Bible all fits together in a simple and neat package.

No, no one has to be baptized over and over again when they commit sin. There are two laws of pardon – one for the alien sinner and one for the Christian. Afterall, you did quote 1 John 1:9 didn’t you? That refers to the second law of pardon.

That’s about as far as I’m going with this for now. I’ll deal with James later.

This may suprise some , but I feel I may have possibly rearranged my stance on baptism. I am finding more and more that obedience to the Gospel is necessary for the conversion of a sinner. Notice Noah , who saved him ? GOD! but had Noah not first obeyed God by building this ark God could not have saved him. Namaan , he tried to do it everyother way , but God specifically told him to dip 7 TIMES in the Jordan. God healed him when he obeyed him. The Bible is specific in 2 Thess 1:8 ” In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” OBEDIENCE is the key to escaping this judgment.

———- When does a person put on or get into Jesus ? Romans 6:3 ” Know ye not , that so many of us as were baptized into jesus Christ were baptized into his death? ” WE GOT IN HIM AT BAPTISM!

The Gospel is the saving message and grace (Acts 20:24) baptism is no more of a work than repentance or confession. I cannot find the first passage that says faith only saves. It is faith in conjunction with repentance , and obedience.

We PURIFY our souls by obeying the truth. 1 Peter 1:22 ” Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the spirit (1 Cor 12:13) unto unfeigned love of the brethren , see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently. It is the gospel message which saves ! see Paul said in 1 Cor 1:18 that to us saved the preaching message of the cross is POWER! I believe that baptism was an essential part in the gospel message. Why ? let us examine Philip and the Ethiopian Eunich : Acts 8:26-40. See , Philip preached unto him , and I have no reason to believe this Eunich knew of any biblical teaching before Philip and when Philip has concluded his reading in verse 35 we see a funny question arise from that Eunich in verse 36 ” What doth hinder me from being baptized” see obviously Philip preached baptism unto him in his GOSPEL message which is our power and salvation (Acts 20:24) because otherwise how would this Eunich have known ? these are just some thoughts , and things I have gathered since I last spoke on here ! Thanks.

Thank you so much for your comments. I believe you are on the right track. It is true that "faith" is talked about much in the New Testament, but that does not negate the need to repent does it? Nor does it negate the need to hear the gospel in the first place in order to obtain faith. Nor does it negate the need to confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God or to be baptized in order to call upon the name of the Lord and receive the blessing of salvation.

What most people fail to realize is that the Bible is full of figures of speech. Parables for instance, and allegories. Well there is also the use of synecdoche which means "a part for the whole." We use this figure of speech more often than we think. A rancher might use it when referring to his livestock, "I have 100 HEAD of cattle." Well we know that he doesn't have 100 heads grazing in the back 40, but that he means he has 100 entires cows.

The same is true in the case of "faith." When the Bible tells us in Hebrews 11 that by "FAITH" Noah saved his household, we know that faith was coupled with his obedience to God through the building of the ark, preaching to the world, and getting everyone into the ark. That he didn't just sit down under some tree and thank God for saving him, and waiting for the flood to come and the ark to appear.

The same is true of every example in Hebrews 11, that is why that chapter has been given to us, to help us understand what true faith is all about. You are absolutely correct, that Noah's faith would have been a dead faith, had he done nothing, and he and his family would have drown with the rest of the world, and that would have been the end of humanity.

What many people have a hard time grasping, is that God chose these people to be His servants. That may be true, but God's choosing did not negate their requirement to obey Him. God chose them because He knew beforehand that they were the type of people who would obey Him. I think it is called "Foreknowledge?"

Also, I would like to direct your thoughts to Romans 6. In Romans 6:17, Paul commends these Christians who had already obeyed God, for the manner in which they did obey Him. "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form (pattern) of doctrine which was delivered you."

Now you have realized that preaching the gospel to someone includes ALL that one must do in order to be saved, and you are correct. Just Peter on Pentecost told the people to repent and baptized every one of you FOR the remission of sins…and with many other words he exhorted them, save yourselves from this crooked generation, THEN they that gladly received his word were baptized, and the same day there were ADDED unto them about 3000 souls (Acts 2:38-41). These 3000 souls were ADDED to something – but what? They were ADDED to the already saved, to the church (vs. 47). When were they ADDED, after they heard the gospel preached which produced a faith that motivated them to repent, confess and be baptized into Christ!

Back to Romans 6:17 – These Roman Christian (Jews and Gentiles) had obeyed from the heart a 'form' a 'pattern' of doctrine – what was it? What had been preached to them? The gospel (Romans 1:16). What is the gospel? The dead, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). So what form or pattern of doctrine had these people obeyed from the heart?

They died to sin, were buried, and resurrected! By faith only? Not hardly. Romans 6:3-6 shows us that pattern or form – "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized INTO Jesus Christ, were baptized INTO His death? Therefore we are BURIED with Him by baptism INTO death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall also in the likeness of His resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man (man of sin) is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Just as Noah and his family were saved by water. In other words, they were transported by water (flood) from a world of sin, to a world without sin, in the same manner, in baptism, we are transported from that world of sin, to a world without sin – figuratively speaking. Our sins are washed away by the blood of the Lamb. We become a new creature IN Christ. (1 Peter 3:21).

Kyle I hope this helps, and keep studying like those Noble Bereans, you are on the right track.

You said, that 1Jn 1:9 is for christian that already been saved. How do you know that it is for a christian? You can't conclude that these people are saved christian. I f you read in 2 Jn 1:- it addressed to MY little children which is referred to the christian, but in verse 18-19 there is antichrist that came out from them. So you can't conclude that the 1 Jn is all addressed to the saved christian.
Mike, you confused me you said in your previous article that Romans 10:9-10-God commanded men to confess to obtain salvation. And then you replied that Romans 10: is already saved christian..
Also you said that you want me to prove that Acts 2 is not refer to the nation Israel. Open your Bible and read it. Yes you are very right that during Pentecost there are many strangers came to attend the festival verse 10. But the bottom line of message of the gospel is not for the strangers or to the Gentiles but for the Israel. Like the same manner in Matthew 10:5-6. Jesus Christ mandated the Apostles not to preach the gospel to the Gentiles but to the lost sheep of Israel. But this gospel is different from the gospel that preached by Peter during the Pentecost. I will discuss that later.
So, i will prove you Acts 2. that was a message to Israel.
Note: verse 37- who asked Peter this" Men and brethren what shall we do?'' Do you think these are the strangers? or from Asia, Saudi Arabia, or Rome?. Remember Peter was preaching Christ whom they crucified. The strangers didn't crucified Christ. Peter's message was addressed to the Jews. Lets read -Acts 2:14, Acts 2:22- Notice the word YOU here- do you think that was referred to the strangers? . Verse 23- notice the word YE – YE have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain- do you think it was referred to the strangers?. Verse 36- Therefore let ALL the HOUSE of ISRAEL…..So very clear that whole concept of the message during Pentecost was entirely addressed to the nation Israel! Verse 37- Now when THEY( who is THEY? the strangers?) heard THEY were pricked… Mike, do you think the strangers were guilty of crucifying Christ or the nation Israel?
Now, let us discuss as what I said that the gospel that preached by the Apostles is different gospel that we preach today.
1. T he Apostles preached the gospel kingdom -Matthew 10:5-6
2.Apostle Paul preached the gospel of grace- Acts 20:24. we all know the gospel of Paul is pointing to the death, burial,and resurrection of Christ -1 Cor.15:1-6. And this gospel is hidden from the 12 Apostles and they know nothing nor understand about it -Luke 18:32 -34- This time Christ was talking for his death,burial,and resurrection but the Apostles understand none. This gospel was given to Paul alone -Galatians 1:9-10.
Now you are trying to say that ' I'm trying to convince you for there are two separate plans of salvation one for the Jews and another for the Gentiles. Did i say that?
Yes, i do believe that there are two different gospels one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.-Galatians 2:7
Also I do believe that salvation is by grace through faith-( without water baptism) Ephesians 2:8-9
Mike, you know i do agree with you that we need the baptism but I'm not convince that the baptism is part of salvation.
You must saved first then water baptism to fulfill righteousness.
Baptism is not imperative for salvation but it is required to the follower of Christ for the public confession- Matthew 10:32
Baptism does not mean regeneration or forgiveness of sin.
Mark 16:16- He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.'' Note; that believing comes first before baptism.
Baptism states the fact of an event that has already transpired beforehand.
Baptism is an outward symbol of an inward reality- a genuine conversion.
1.It means obedience to the command of Christ after being saved.(after believed)-Mk.16:16
2.It means following Christ's example. -1 Peter 2:21
3.It means fulfilling all righteousness- Matt.3:15 ( He was baptized not to be a God)
4.It means identification in Christ's death-Rm 6:5
5 '' '' '' '' burial- Rm 6:4
6'' '' '' '' resurrection-Rm 6:4

Thanks for taking the time to response to my last post. There is a lot to deal with here.

First of all, you asked how anyone can know who 1 John is written to. Just read the book and common sense will tell the honest hearted. 1 John 2:1 "My little children," a term of endearment used for those who are close – as Christian to Christian.
1 John 2:7-11 – "Brethren" – "brother" Used of Christian to Christian because they are all part of God's family, with God the Father being the head of the family, and Christ being our brother.
1 John 2:24 – "sins forgiven" would only point to a Christian
There are many other such verses that show throughout the book that John is speaking strictly to Christians who are either standing in error, or are about to go that way.
Really, Romans thru Revelation is written to Christians, dealing with edifying them, or correcting false doctrines.

Concerning Romans 10 – apparently you need to re-read what I said. I didn't intend on confusing you. As I stated before, yes, Romans is written to Christians (the saved), but Paul is merely telling them his desire for his lost brethren the Jews.

In Acts 2 – again, you apparently did not read what I said. I agree that Peter was dealing with the Jewish people. As I stated, the gospel was to be given to the Jews FIRST (Romans 1:16), and then it would be sent to the Gentiles later. But that did not negate the fact that if a Gentile happened to be in the audience and wanted to be saved, that he couldn't! Those strangers were Gentiles, they were in the audience along with the Jews. There were even proselytes, which again are Gentiles. Just because the Gospel was meant to be preached to the Jews firstn as a whole, did not mean that the apostles would tell the strangers and proselytes that they couldn't be saved until later when Paul preached to them! How absurd.

God allowed anyone to keep the feasts who wanted to follow the one true living God (Num. 15:14-16; 1 Kings 8:40-42). To use Matthew 10 as a text for saying that a different gospel was to be preached to them is dishonest. Matthew 10 is simply preparing the Apostles for day that when the gospel would truly beging to be preached. They did not preach the gospel to the Jews, all they were told to do is tell the people that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. A kingdom that came about in Acts 2.

You are correct to say that what the apostles preached in Matt. 10 and what they preached in Acts 2 are Two totally different things. They were preparing the Jews for the coming of the kingdom as Daniel predicted that it would come in the days of the Roman empire (Daniel 2). The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (The gospel message) was first preached in Acts 2 – and was preached to the Jews first (Romans 1:16). But Peter's preaching was no different than Paul's to the Gentiles!

As for the strangers not crucifying Christ, but only the Jews. Please tell us how EVERY Jew present (close to 1 million) crucified Christ? The fact is that none of the Jews crucified Him – as Peter points out (vs. 23), the Jews wanted it, the Romans in effect literally did it – but in reality it was every human being who has ever lived that crucified Christ! It was each and everyone of us and our sins that sent Jesus Christ to the cross (Isa. 53).

As for Matthew 10 and the preaching of the kingdom of heaven being at hand – that was not the gospel! It was merely preparation for the coming gospel and kingdom.

You actually mean to tell us that Paul's preaching of grace is not what Peter preached in Acts 2? I thought that everything that God did for humanity was by grace!

Paul preached "The word of God" to the Jews (Acts 13:5; 17:13)
Paul preached "the forgiveness of sins" to the Jews (Acts 13:38)
Paul preached "the gospel" to the Jews & Gentiles (Acts 14:7, 21; 16:10)
Paul preached "the word" to the Jews & Gentiles (Acts 14:25)
Paul preached "the word of the Lord" to the Jews & Gentiles (Acts 15:35)
Paul preached "Christ" to the Jews & Gentiles (Acts 17:3)
Paul preached "the gospel of the grace of God" to the Jews & Gentiles (Acts 20:24)
Paul preached "the kingdom of God" to the Jews & Gentiles (Acts 20:25)
Peter and John preached to the Jews first "Jesus Christ" (Acts 3:20)
Peter and John preached to the Jews first that EVERY man and woman on earth could be blessed by Jesus Christ (Acts 3:21-26)
Peter and John preached the gospel/doctrine to the Jews first (Acts 5:28-29) – what doctrine? That Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah who came to take away the sins of the world – both Jew and Gentile!
Peter and John did not cease to teach and preach Jesus Christ to the Jews first (Acts 5:42)
Philip preached "the good tidings," the "things concerning the kingdom of God" and "the name of Jesus Christ" (Acts 8:12)
Peter and John preached the "word of the Lord," and the "gospel" to Samaria (Half Jews) Acts 8:25)

Here is proof that ALL the apostles, Paul included preached one and the same doctrine to both Jew and Gentile. It's just that God wanted the Jews to receive it first because they had been His chosen people.

I'm sorry that you have things all mixed up – it is true that the 12 did not understand what Jesus was trying to teach them (Luke 18:32-34). But He told them that He would send them the Holy Spirit and He would guide them into ALL the truth. He would bring to remembrance ALL things that Jesus had taught them. He would teach them new things that Jesus didn't have time to teach them (John 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7, 13). Therefore, when they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, they understood what Jesus was trying to teach them. They began to understand that the kingdom was spiritual not physical, and that Jesus had to die for the sins of all mankind.

The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So if Paul was the only one the gospel was given to as you say (Galatians 1:9-10), then why did Peter preached it to the Jews in Acts 2:23-24??
By the way, Galatians 1:9-10 says NOTHING about Paul being the only one to receive the gospel.

Again, how can there be two different 'gospels' when Paul specifically said through the aid of the Holy Spirit, "I marvel that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto ANOTHER GOSPEL: which is not another; but there are some that trouble you, and would prevert the gospel of Christ. But though we (all the apostles), or an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we (all the apostles) have preached unto you, let him be accursed!" (Galatians 1:6-8).

You say that we don't need baptism, but we need baptism. That's a logical contradiction! Which is it? If we don't need baptism to be saved, then why do we need it at all? Please show me a verse that says it is a symbol or an inward reality. I would like to see that verse.

Mark 16:16 says, "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned"
The word "and" is a conjunction which ties two things together. Faith and baptism are tied together, and you can't have salvation without the two. That's why Jesus went on to say, that if a persons faith will not allow them to be baptized, then they are condemned. I challenge you or anyone else to take that sentence to an English teacher and have them diagram it. You can't get past the fact that faith and baptism = salvation! Sorry. It's God's plan, not mine.

I noticed how you mentioned Romans 6:3-5

Have you ever really thought through that text? Stop and really reflect upon what Paul is saying there.
Why would anyone need to be 'Buried" in baptism unto "death" AFTER being saved? What death?
Why would anyone need to be raised up to walk in newness of life, IF they were already a new life?
Why would anyone need to be baptized after being in a saved condition, when the body of sin is crucified in baptism?

This argument of dying before getting baptized reminds me of a now deceased member of the coC where I attend. She had stopped coming to church, I went to talk to her, she said there was nothing I could say to persuade her to come back. Before taking my leave I said to her, "THERE WILL BE A TIME WHEN YOU WILL WANT TO COME TO CHURCH AND YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO. That is to say when they (those of whom the question is directed) could they wouldn't and when they would they couldn't. That same member later became ill and wanted very much to come to church, and she could not. Age does matter she was in her 80's at the time she stopped coming. All she would say when she was ill is I SURE WISH I COULD COME TO CHURCH. When she was in good health she would not attend. She did eventually get to where she could attend sometimes. This is a very stupid argument for those who are against baptism being essential to salvation. Tit 2:11, (read the whole chapter in context, it speaks to doctrine) takes care of that. This argument also reminds me of AGRIPPA in Acts 26:28, he had the chance to obey the gospel, but wanted to wait for a convenient time, the bible says NOW IS THE ACCEPTED TIME 2 COR 6:2, ALSO HEB 3:15, HEB 4:7, ACTS 17:30. SO IF YOU DIE ON YOUR WAY TO BEING BAPTIZED REMEMBER GOD EVEN GAVE PHARAOH ROOM TO REPENT FOR HE ALWAYS SAYS OF PHARAOH IF HE WILL NOT LET MY PEOPLE GO THEN WILL I. PHARAOH HAD 10 CHANCES TO REPENT AND DID NOT. THE PEOPLE IN THE DAY OF NOAH 1 PET 3:20. GOD HAD ALWAYS GIVEN DILIGENT SEARCHERS THE CHANCE TO OBEY HEB 11:6. WE NEED TO STOP WITH THE SILLY HYPOTHETICALS & DEAL WITH BIBLICAL TRUTHS, REAL REALITIES.