It surprises me how few Free Men are on ILP, in Western Civilization, and in USA. USA is, hypothetically, the "freest" nation in the world, yet you wouldn't think so based on this forum, where most or everybody are determinists and casually imply, everyday, that "free-will" is impossible.

Fuck you.

Just because you are a slave, doesn't mean that everybody else is. Just because most people are, that it is impossible.

I understand the mentality of the Slave, the Abrahamic, the Christian, the Jew, the Moslem. Many people, most of humanity, is born into different forms of slavery. And humanity clings to their walls, chains, and bars. Why? Because slavery represents security and comfort. It represents routine. It represents the 'known'. It never ventures into the unknown, the abstract, the intimidating. It never ventures into humility, that, you can be wrong.

That you can be very wrong, about most of the bullshit you've been raised up to believe in.

This is particularly insulting, personally, on a "philosophy forum", where Philosophers have pushed the tradition for thousands of years now, of free-thought and doubt. Here, you are, hypothetically, "free" to doubt all the bullshit. But again, you wouldn't know or suspect this, based on the 99% of posts and responses on this forum, from slave-minds.

I very much pity those who are slave-minded and never tasted freedom. It makes me realize how Blessed and Privileged I truly am, to become a free-thinker. I say *become* because freedom is not merely granted or earned, it must be fought for. It must be sacrificed for. And it's obvious, that most are unwilling to make such sacrifices, to gain a semblance of freedom. Instead, people are beholden to their basic belief systems (Meme-plex). You are beholden to your religion, your political party, your left, your right, your liberalism, your conservatism. I am beyond all these labels. I have explored them all, left, right, up down forward backward. Whereas you only choose one side, and stick with that.

It is more troubling to those who are slaves, that somebody says "freedom is possible", than the inverse. Slaves are threatened by freedom. But free-men are not threatened by slaves. Why? Because free-men understand the difference.

What is the reaction of the slave to the free-man? Does the slave want to pull herself out of slavery? No, she would rather pull the free-man down into her slavery and share her slavery with others. The slave has little or no interest in freedom, only, of spreading his/her own slavery to others.

"If I can't be free, then nobody else can". This is the Nihilistic core of the slave-minded.

unwrong wrote:Just because you are a slave, doesn't mean that everybody else is.

yeah i'm with unwrong. you guys can go conform to the natural laws that govern the movement of physical bodies in space/time if you want, but unwrong and i are going to defy the laws of physics and apply magical, immaterial forces to the electro-chemical processes of/in our nervous systems such that we render the neurological activities therein unaffected by those laws, and act 'freely' as a result.

anybody who can't suspend the laws of physics and strip from all antecedent events their causal effects on events that follow in the nervous system, are slaves.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:"If I can't be free, then nobody else can". This is the Nihilistic core of the slave-minded.

If I cannot win, then nobody can.

If I cannot be happy in life, then nobody deserves it.

My "aggression" is nowhere close to these adversaries.

Interesting that you're arguing a moral or values based case for free will... this is novel

So allow me to ask you, what is the higher value?Truth or Freedom?

A slave can easily imagine themselves to freedom. "I don't HAVE to act this way, I choose to" But what if that belief is at odds with the truth? What then? Ignore it?

Besides, it seems you've come across the trouble of defining "free will" in a coherent way, yet you have made no attempt at dealing with it.You cannot ask anyone to adopt a position or perspective that is incomprehensible to them.

Free will should be taken to mean a will that is "free" of what exactly?Prior causes? If past experiences influence my will and wants does that mean I do not have "free" will?Emotional attachments? if my emotions entice me to make choices would that mean I had no free will?Pre-existing preferences? If I like the taste of chocolate more than dirt despite my best efforts to will it otherwise, does that mean I lack free will?

Before we even get into physics and metaphysics, you have to define the concept in a way that is comprehensible.

So far the only definition of free will that is coherent to me is from utility "That which allows us to hold each other accountable for our actions"And so far as I can tell, there is no conflict between that definition and determinism... it just takes a few more steps to get there.

"I'm just saying that if we want to have a fruitful discussion, we all need to know what the fuck we're talking about" - Carleas

Urwrongx1000 wrote:"If I can't be free, then nobody else can". This is the Nihilistic core of the slave-minded.

If I cannot win, then nobody can.

If I cannot be happy in life, then nobody deserves it.

My "aggression" is nowhere close to these adversaries.

Interesting that you're arguing a moral or values based case for free will... this is novel

So allow me to ask you, what is the higher value?Truth or Freedom?

A slave can easily imagine themselves to freedom. "I don't HAVE to act this way, I choose to" But what if that belief is at odds with the truth? What then? Ignore it?

Besides, it seems you've come across the trouble of defining "free will" in a coherent way, yet you have made no attempt at dealing with it.You cannot ask anyone to adopt a position or perspective that is incomprehensible to them.

Free will should be taken to mean a will that is "free" of what exactly?Prior causes? If past experiences influence my will and wants does that mean I do not have "free" will?Emotional attachments? if my emotions entice me to make choices would that mean I had no free will?Pre-existing preferences? If I like the taste of chocolate more than dirt despite my best efforts to will it otherwise, does that mean I lack free will?

Before we even get into physics and metaphysics, you have to define the concept in a way that is comprehensible.

So far the only definition of free will that is coherent to me is from utility "That which allows us to hold each other accountable for our actions"And so far as I can tell, there is no conflict between that definition and determinism... it just takes a few more steps to get there.

That is exactly on point . the establishment knew the intellectual remifications of the new left, therefore by defining it to those who did not understand it, they defeated the popular understanding of it by counter intelligence depending on counter definitipns5. The Monkees were a good example.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:"If I can't be free, then nobody else can". This is the Nihilistic core of the slave-minded.

If I cannot win, then nobody can.

If I cannot be happy in life, then nobody deserves it.

My "aggression" is nowhere close to these adversaries.

Interesting that you're arguing a moral or values based case for free will... this is novel

So allow me to ask you, what is the higher value?Truth or Freedom?

A slave can easily imagine themselves to freedom. "I don't HAVE to act this way, I choose to" But what if that belief is at odds with the truth? What then? Ignore it?

Besides, it seems you've come across the trouble of defining "free will" in a coherent way, yet you have made no attempt at dealing with it.You cannot ask anyone to adopt a position or perspective that is incomprehensible to them.

Free will should be taken to mean a will that is "free" of what exactly?Prior causes? If past experiences influence my will and wants does that mean I do not have "free" will?Emotional attachments? if my emotions entice me to make choices would that mean I had no free will?Pre-existing preferences? If I like the taste of chocolate more than dirt despite my best efforts to will it otherwise, does that mean I lack free will?

Before we even get into physics and metaphysics, you have to define the concept in a way that is comprehensible.

So far the only definition of free will that is coherent to me is from utility "That which allows us to hold each other accountable for our actions"And so far as I can tell, there is no conflict between that definition and determinism... it just takes a few more steps to get there.

Agree with this and that is why we keep going in circles.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

It is more troubling to those who are slaves, that somebody says "freedom is possible", than the inverse. Slaves are threatened by freedom. But free-men are not threatened by slaves. Why? Because free-men understand the difference.

But free men are definitely annoyed by the slaves. Why? Because slaves outnumber the free about fifty to one.

What is the reaction of the slave to the free-man? Does the slave want to pull herself out of slavery? No, she would rather pull the free-man down into her slavery and share her slavery with others. The slave has little or no interest in freedom, only, of spreading his/her own slavery to others.

Freedom is either something terrifying to the slave, or it is something completely out of reach of even contemplation, and thus fear.

Freedom is, obviously, a lot harder work than being a slave.I think we should really think of it as different species. The slave is literally not capable of being free, the physiology is not up to it. Be it the brain or the nervous system or the stomach or whatever, the slave simply can not endure any other form of being but that which requires absolutely no autonomous conscious decision making.

"If I can't be free, then nobody else can". This is the Nihilistic core of the slave-minded.

If I cannot win, then nobody can.

If I cannot be happy in life, then nobody deserves it.

Yes, Socialism.Sadly it is hard to imagine how a weakling might escape this mindset.

well the socialist philosopher is something quite different than those with simpler working class consciousness and interests.... the ordinary citizens that make up the engine of the socialist revolution. the socialist philosopher can be likened to nietzsche's master legislator; his project is to the entire world what the capitalist's project is to a corner store. as you can see it is a much bigger project... not something the capitalist can comprehend, and something he'd certainly not favor even if he could comprehend it. but meanwhile, as those legislators with the grand idea work in the background, there will be much noise and hooplah to be heard everywhere, from the political marketplaces to the internet forum boards. this is only a minor inconvenience to the wheels of progress and hardly something to be alarmed about. there is always some degree of nervous energy to be found circulating among the peoples when history arrives at those critical points of unfamiliar change. but it is a temporary noise that will eventually be silenced as each thesis gives way to its antithesis, and a new synthesis emerges in its place. the zeitgeist's anxiety toward the lose of tradition and what is comfortable is part of the the growing pangs of the dialectic of history. these are just side effects. best one can do when the people feel such discomfort at such change is to advise them to ask their doctor...