Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins

I agree with you that Superman is a public figure but Clark Kent ?

Clark Kent is hardly a public figure, he is not a news channel reporter or a news reader who is constantly in front of a camera. How many people actually know how a news reporter really looks like in real life ?

If Clark becomes a freelance journalist who rarely visits the Daily Planet Office then the rest of the staff will not see him on a daily basis.

No one knows what John Grisham or Dean Koontz looks like either, and they're public figures. But point taken though, Clark Kent is an easily google-able person. So hiding in plain sight won't work. He has to actually hide, like make sure that no one sees Clark Kent's face, or make sure no one sees Superman's face, or you have to contrive the story in such a way that no one on Earth would look for Superman amongst Lois Lane's coworkers. And he has to not write about Superman at all... it's a lot. Hiding in Plain sight doesn't quite cover it.

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Originally Posted by Marvin

Let me pause there. Only to point out that thus far the hair cuts are mostly similar and lack of glasses and godly costumes that insinuate godly physique. These hollywood stars whom themselves are very much in the public eye and are often associated together(see google searches alone) have led to no such inquires. Probably cause of the no secret id premise.

With Superman/Clark you have one figure that(in this movie alone) is probably only ever captured on print by way of artist recreation or not at all. Then with clark, I don't know about you but I just don't see that many print journalists in the public eye(this isn't 6pm news). My personal relation with columnists I follow tends to start and end with their name on a byline, reading Birthright, I suspect it's that way with alot of Kent fans. Contrast that with how much these celeb twins are 'out there' and I think you'll need to redefine this term "public figure".

Now this one I've seen people question. Then again it's not like one is a flying god! But seriously, asking if clark is really superman is no different than asking if hardy is really this other lesser celebrity in disguise. WHO THINKS THIS?

If I work with a glasses wearing Jane levy for 3 months, I'm not going to suspect her of being Emma stone but rather, of looking just like her. Toss a mask on any of these people as we know them and everything changes. That fact alone and you have your "credibility".
I should add that this is amplified when you are dealing with people that aren't native to your own race.

How many conspiracy theorists look into who Thor really is? Especially in the concise narrative need in those films? Seriously, how may people give thought to who the god of thunder really is in that universe? This is the reality, period.

If superman is seen as a Jesus christ then that diminishes his chances of being thought of as someone meandering. To the effect that I just don't think my friend is Jesus Christ. What's next, my dog is an undercover spy..
my mind is likely to fight this idea.

We're only told that the gov't is interested in finding "where he hangs his cape" not his "secret identity"
It would be like the gov't wanting to know where the bat cave is so they can track and control batman vs wanting to know his secret identity. Though I'm sure they would suspect the masked human with body armor that drives around in a car of having one.

All that being said, I'm glad goyer is going to address it.

I think you have wholly missed the point. The issue is not that people look alike, but people who look like aliens being closely associated with aliens draws a great deal of attention, especially from people who are paid to get stories. There is no profit in discovering Tom Hardy is Whoever Else, and we all assume there are many people who can verify otherwise. People who are paid to report about Tom Hardy don't work with Whoever Else. And on close inspection, we can confirm that they are definitely not the same person. Tom Hardy was not introduced to us as someone who hides amongst us. This is not true of Superman and Clark Kent.

Thor would have the same problem if he worked with Jane Foster as an identical looking Donald Blake, providing Loki had announced to the world that Jane Foster knows Thor. Especially if Loki had told the world that he looks like one of you but is not... which would tell them that he is indeed someone meandering.

As for Batman... it's not a coincidence that finding the Batcave leads to finding his secret identity. The government is looking for his personal life, whatever that is, sicne, again, they know he's used to meandering on Earth, like everyone else with a TV set.

I hope I have sufficiently shown how your celebrity lookalikes is an irrelevant comparison.

Now if the story is contrived so that no one ever captures Superman's image clearly, as they have in every single Superman adaptation to date, then that does help alleviate the problem. That makes for a bad story though, which is why no adaptation has ever done it. You'd be writing about a newspaper that writes about someone no one has ever captured a photo of, even though he saves people all the time and everyone has a camera on their phone.

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Originally Posted by charl_huntress

Granted that is true, but saying he can't fool them doesn't make sense to me when it's not really that hard to fool people in real life...even when your not Superman.

That's why I think the fact Perry called him a "stringer" is important. It's not like he actually works at the DP on a salary. He will be in the office sporadically, which won't give people enough time to become very curious about him.

Okay, but my point again is he is obviously an advanced being capable of great wonders. Why is it so hard to believe one of these "wonders" is the ability to fool people? The movie showed clearly prior to revealing himself as Superman that Clark was quite effective at hiding in the shadows, and people really didn't really notice him.

It's not hard to believe, it just wasn't explained to be so. It's easy to believe you have a red car... until you pull up with a blue car. It'd be hard to believe that Jor-El failed to point out a major ability before, and contrived for Superman to discover new super powers, especially ones from obscure comics.

Clark's hiding was due to his non-descriptness, which would help with is disguise if they kept that, that would be smart. Much better than the slouching thing, if Clark basically forces people not to care about him because he doesn't give off anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Afrobean

There are no photos of Superman.

As of now, no one knows what Superman looks like except a few military folk and Lois. By the end of the next film, only Batman and Luthor might be added to that list of people who know what his face looks like. You are assuming...

Stop right there. What I'm assuming is that Superman will ever save someone in public. That leads to pictures because everyone has a smartphone. Not in the 2000 Spider-Man movie, but in 2014, that wouldn't make any sense, which is why you don't see it in the new Spider-Man movies. It was pretty much the only thing that made sense in Superman Returns. So, perhaps I should assume that Superman would fly around destroying people's smartphones?

Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic

No one knows what John Grisham or Dean Koontz looks like either, and they're public figures. But point taken though, Clark Kent is an easily google-able person. So hiding in plain sight won't work. He has to actually hide, like make sure that no one sees Clark Kent's face, or make sure no one sees Superman's face, or you have to contrive the story in such a way that no one on Earth would look for Superman amongst Lois Lane's coworkers. And he has to not write about Superman at all... it's a lot. Hiding in Plain sight doesn't quite cover it.

In the Superman/Batman comic, Batman was trying to figure out Clark's true identity. When they each find out who the other person is, Clark explains that Bruce's attempts at facial recognition didn't work because he vibrates when his picture is taken.

And you totally missed the what Goyer said, apparently, that there are other people in this universe that know/can guess at Clark's identity and keep it a secret. So the secret identity may not be that big of an issue in these films, so the whole "OMG CLARK CAN'T KEEP HIS IDENTITY SECRET!!!!!eleventyone!!!" argument is probably moot.

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I think you have wholly missed the point. The issue is not that people look alike, but people who look like aliens being closely associated with aliens draws a great deal of attention, especially from people who are paid to get stories. There is no profit in discovering Tom Hardy is Whoever Else, and we all assume there are many people who can verify otherwise. People who are paid to report about Tom Hardy don't work with Whoever Else. And on close inspection, we can confirm that they are definitely not the same person. Tom Hardy was not introduced to us as someone who hides amongst us. This is not true of Superman and Clark Kent.

I don't understand. Of course there is profit in discovering that Tom Hardy is Whoever Else. Any dirt on any celebrity is worth $$$. That's why stars are stalked by paparazzi, who photograph everything and report on the most inane nonsense. If Tom Hardy were the President of the Dom/sub International Sexy Times Club, people would want to know.

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Now if the story is contrived so that no one ever captures Superman's image clearly, as they have in every single Superman adaptation to date, then that does help alleviate the problem. That makes for a bad story though, which is why no adaptation has ever done it. You'd be writing about a newspaper that writes about someone no one has ever captured a photo of, even though he saves people all the time and everyone has a camera on their phone.

Maybe you can give the next film a chance? And besides your complaint is silly, because every version of Superman runs into this trouble. It's even poked fun at in "World's Funnest" (which is a strange but sometimes hilarious book. Everyone should read it).

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Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

It's not hard to believe, it just wasn't explained to be so. It's easy to believe you have a red car... until you pull up with a blue car. It'd be hard to believe that Jor-El failed to point out a major ability before, and contrived for Superman to discover new super powers, especially ones from obscure comics.

Clark's hiding was due to his non-descriptness, which would help with is disguise if they kept that, that would be smart. Much better than the slouching thing, if Clark basically forces people not to care about him because he doesn't give off anything at all.

But it wasn't meant to be explained since Clark only made an appearance at the end.

Truthfully, I wish this dude Goyer had come up with a better answer because now he has people thinking it will be a problem when it's not in fact an actual problem. Also, Superman being able to hide wasn't a new ability he got from Jor or being a Kryptonian. He learned to hide because he had too since he was an alien. My point is if he learned to be incognito before he became Superman what makes you think he can't still be that after becoming Superman? He will still be non-descript as Clark. That's a part of Clark's disguise.

Again, people get caught up with just the glasses when it's really the misdirection that Clark uses to hide to begin with.

Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I would assume that there aren't good pictures of Superman's face in the news/internet.

Notice that he only puts on the glasses once he gets into the lift.

He must only be doing it then because he thinks there's a slight chance that Perry/Jenny/Lombard might have gotten a look at him during the battle. But they didn't.

(However, to me, it also suggests that he hasn't been doing much in the public eye since the Battle of Metropolis since there's no pictures of him.)

The sequel might pick up with different circumstances though. Maybe it'll be after his pictures have gotten all over the news. Maybe the glasses trick will still work. Maybe it won't. Either way, I'm fine with it.

Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

I think you have wholly missed the point. The issue is not that people look alike, but people who look like aliens being closely associated with aliens draws a great deal of attention, especially from people who are paid to get stories. There is no profit in discovering Tom Hardy is Whoever Else, and we all assume there are many people who can verify otherwise. People who are paid to report about Tom Hardy don't work with Whoever Else. And on close inspection, we can confirm that they are definitely not the same person. Tom Hardy was not introduced to us as someone who hides amongst us. This is not true of Superman and Clark Kent.

Thor would have the same problem if he worked with Jane Foster as an identical looking Donald Blake, providing Loki had announced to the world that Jane Foster knows Thor. Especially if Loki had told the world that he looks like one of you but is not... which would tell them that he is indeed someone meandering.

As for Batman... it's not a coincidence that finding the Batcave leads to finding his secret identity. The government is looking for his personal life, whatever that is, sicne, again, they know he's used to meandering on Earth, like everyone else with a TV set.

I hope I have sufficiently shown how your celebrity lookalikes is an irrelevant comparison.

Now if the story is contrived so that no one ever captures Superman's image clearly, as they have in every single Superman adaptation to date, then that does help alleviate the problem. That makes for a bad story though, which is why no adaptation has ever done it. You'd be writing about a newspaper that writes about someone no one has ever captured a photo of, even though he saves people all the time and everyone has a camera on their phone.

If the point is why is it that people don't put together that clark and superman are one in the same, based on clark and superman lack of disguise, then no, the celebrity look alike clause is very much in place for that exact reason(no disguise). The key element again, is his lack of secret identity in either persona. For all the RDJ look a likes out there I, only speaking for myself, don't give it two thoughts. I'm talking about the public consciousness, the same one that right now gives you no reason to suspect Tom Hardy has a secret identity. Or the fire chief or the news journalist Walter Cronkite, we accept them as who they are.
The fact that he's an alien god helps his case imo. It gives credence to the idea that he really doesn't spend his days occupying himself the way peter parker might need to.

What you are getting into is something different. A plot line that figures into; what if someone wanted to look into the truth. That's asserting a positive that the films aren't beholden to. That's like saying what if someone was motivated to find out Bruce Wayne's secret identity, does it hold up to scrutiny? The answer being as always, it's not perfect(see tdk or tdkr or begins even). But again, I'm squarely addressing the idea that Clark Kent walks into a ballroom looking the way he does and his cover isn't blown.
It's credible. I would argue that it's the rational behind Lombard not screaming "it's superman" when they shook hands at the end, let alone all the people on the elevator ride with clark.

Can military investigators and NSA find out who the man is? Sure, it's stupid to think they haven't. It's stupid to think they haven't found out who batman is either(the animated series played this right). Could investigative reporters figure out the truth upon diligent investigation? Well this movie showed lois do it a third of the way in and on a hunch no less(fans loved it). However that's another argument.

Lastly, this idea that no one captures his image. Watching this film, how many times did you see people capture him on the readily present phone camera. Again, asserting a positive that the narrative isn't beholden to. I can just as easily suggest that superman(based on his source material powers) of all people can avoid such things better than anyone not named kingdom come flash. But that would be me asserting beyond the narrative.

All that being said, Zods message is definitely a twist on things worth considering and presents a paradigm different to the mythos(what I'm mostly referring to). Perhaps this is what Goyer is mentally present of.

I personally think all superman has to say(in a written interview) is that he spends his days in the fortress of solitude some where in the pole(s). That's where he flies off too when not needed on earth, and he will undo a great majority of the damage done by zod's message. Hiding among us isn't the same as hiding "as one of us". Superman didn't exactly turn himself in as person, but rather as himself.

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Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Celebrities are typically unrecognised on the street, but that's completely different from saying that nobody ever recognises them.

My sister sells expensive perfume for a living in suburban Florida, near Orlando. I doubt she recognises every celebrity that comes in, but she recognises a whole lot, professional athletes, movie stars, business figures, etc.

Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion

Celebrities are typically unrecognised on the street, but that's completely different from saying that nobody ever recognises them.

My sister sells expensive perfume for a living in suburban Florida, near Orlando. I doubt she recognises every celebrity that comes in, but she recognises a whole lot, professional athletes, movie stars, business figures, etc.

Hollywood movie stars and/or Talk show celebrities are almost instantly recognized on the street only because there faces are constantly plastered on everything.

Unless the are posting close ups of Superman face on websites, Newspapers, and TV news shows then I don't think the averages person would recognize Clark was Superman if they saw his face.

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Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

No one knows what John Grisham or Dean Koontz looks like either, and they're public figures. But point taken though, Clark Kent is an easily google-able person. So hiding in plain sight won't work. He has to actually hide, like make sure that no one sees Clark Kent's face, or make sure no one sees Superman's face, or you have to contrive the story in such a way that no one on Earth would look for Superman amongst Lois Lane's coworkers. And he has to not write about Superman at all... it's a lot. Hiding in Plain sight doesn't quite cover it.

Are we speaking hypothetically within the movie-verse or in our own reality because unless Goyer states that there are or aren't pictures of Clark Kent out there, then his google-bility doesn't matter at all.

Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Or we could just pretend it's only a movie and suspend our disbelief or something like that?

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Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Realistically, there is no perfect disguise for Superman. Within the universe of MOS (or any Superman universe), he is probably one of the most well-known beings in the world and there will be photographs of him at some point. Which begs the question, how is Clark Kent ever going to walk down a street and not be recognised?

We're going to have to accept the relative implausibility of the whole situation, and just concede that .....

- the presence of glasses
- the difference in look (Clark wearing civilian clothes rather than a bodyfitting suit)
- a different hairstyle
- slightly different posture
- the absurdity of the situation itself (no-one expects to see Superman in a shirt & tie walking down their street)

.... all combined with a healthy suspension of disbelief from the viewer, is enough to make most people accept that Clark can walk around unrecognised.

Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by elgaz

Realistically, there is no perfect disguise for Superman. Within the universe of MOS (or any Superman universe), he is probably one of the most well-known beings in the world and there will be photographs of him at some point. Which begs the question, how is Clark Kent ever going to walk down a street and not be recognised?

We're going to have to accept the relative implausibility of the whole situation, and just concede that .....

- the presence of glasses
- the difference in look (Clark wearing civilian clothes rather than a bodyfitting suit)
- a different hairstyle
- slightly different posture
- the absurdity of the situation itself (no-one expects to see Superman in a shirt & tie walking down their street)

.... all combined with a healthy suspension of disbelief from the viewer, is enough to make most people accept that Clark can walk around unrecognised.

I think that most of the footage will be crappy cellphone video and pics. These are they type of image that would pop up on in newspapers and on news shows. Crappy ireport cellphone pics and video shot by amateurs.

This is what will be seen on the street.

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Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Smashlilman

I think that most of the footage will be crappy cellphone video. These are they type of image that would pop up on in newspapers and on news shows. Crappy ireport cellphone pics and video shot by amateurs.

This is a great real world example of this. Of course there were also plenty of much better amateur set pics wherein his face is very clear, however This was on a film set, where Cavill would be standing still often, waiting for a scene, etc, and even actually posing for fans.
In reality, Superman's public appearances, especially so far, are not situations where people will be getting anything remotely resembling a still, clear, shot.

That's not to say that, in the future, he wouldn't be more publicly visible outside of fights and high action moments. It is highly likely that there WILL be VERY clear shots of Superman at some point in his career. Or at least moments that would APPEAR to give opportunities for such pictures.

Given his senses, I think it pretty reasonable that he would be aware any time there is a camera, cell phone, etc, pointed at him, and could thus make a conscious effort to avoid having a clear shot taken.

That said, such would make for very poor public relations. Part of the argument for having his face exposed is public trust in him.
Obviously whether or not people will accept him is a huge theme in their approach in these films, and likely will play a further part in the sequel, especially with the Lex bigotry type approach.
Lex will be making it his mission to besmirch Superman's image.

Now, any time Superman is interacting with people in person, they will see him clearly, and be able to connect with him, given the exposed face.
But gaining people's trust one by one is a big job, lol.

Just think about how little the public at large would trust someone who they've never really seen. Someone who has no clear public image. Not knowing what he actually looks like.
Even someone with a mask can have clear images shown, in theory, but the big guy, the grand daddy of them all, would remain a mystery to the greater populace.

Long story short, avoiding photos and video would be, in the long term, counterproductive to a greater cause, relative to the benefit of hiding his face.

Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by The Valeyard

The difference is that Superman has always been portrayed as a public figure. He appears in front of camera. Shows his face. Makes speeches. It was part of his character.

So you're saying that MoS Superman should be a vigilante that operates in the shadows?

It would help with the disguise for sure if no one saw Superman, but that basically makes him Smallville's Blur.

Superman is still a relatively unknown face by the end of MOS, maybe some blurry pics exist but they are not enough to establish a connection between Clark Kent and Superman.

This will change in future... when Superman is seen more frequently by the public but by then Clark Kent would have established his own identity that would serve to differentiate him from Superman, then people will just see it as a coincidence that he has some resemblance to Superman.

If Clark kent works as a freelance journalist who does not visit the Daily Planet office often, not many people will notice the similarity either.

Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Valeyard

The difference is that Superman has always been portrayed as a public figure. He appears in front of camera. Shows his face. Makes speeches. It was part of his character.

So you're saying that MoS Superman should be a vigilante that operates in the shadows?

It would help with the disguise for sure if no one saw Superman, but that basically makes him Smallville's Blur.

So what? Shouldn't the people of the DP have noticed something? But they don't (usually). So the argument isn't really about MOS and Goyer any more, right? This is the problem with Superman's mythology. It's always been stupid, and while MOS is making strides to improve matters, they couldn't entirely change the myth, because then people complain (more than they are now).

Besides, Goyer has said that he thinks there are people in Smallville who are going to keep Clark's secret, and he thinks Perry might figure things out too. If Snyder and Goyer continue on this route, then it means that there will be less secrets, so there's less concern if Clark can hide who he is when he's not at the DP.

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Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Tempest

So what? Shouldn't the people of the DP have noticed something? But they don't (usually). So the argument isn't really about MOS and Goyer any more, right? This is the problem with Superman's mythology. It's always been stupid, and while MOS is making strides to improve matters, they couldn't entirely change the myth, because then people complain (more than they are now).

Besides, Goyer has said that he thinks there are people in Smallville who are going to keep Clark's secret, and he thinks Perry might figure things out too. If Snyder and Goyer continue on this route, then it means that there will be less secrets, so there's less concern if Clark can hide who he is when he's not at the DP.

Then it's just an open secret that the people close to Clark keep to them selves. I can live with that.

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Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I always looked at it like this:
Tom Brady is a pretty popular guy. If someone who looked like TB showed up at your job you'd think…he looks like TB….maybe you'd joke with him about it….however at no point would you think that is Tom Brady in a secret identity because no one thinks like that…no one thinks Superman has a secret identity…they think he is Superman 24/7 and that Clark just happens to look like him.

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