Martin: Today February 16, 2007, We are at Uwanyirigira Mathilde's house at Gacuriro. She is going to tell us her story about her life during and after the
genocide. I would like you, Uwanyirigira Mathilde, to start with introducing yourself.

Mathilde: My name is Uwanyirigira Mathilde, I am 41 and I have two children. I think... before the war [genocide] I lived at Mumena, in Nyamirambo.

Martin: Mathilde, how many people were in your family before the war [genocide]?

Mathilde: My family was composed of my husband and my two children.

Martin: Can you tell us briefly how life was like in your family before the war [genocide] of 1994?

Mathilde: We lived well in our family. Coexistence with our neighbors was good.

Martin: So the genocide began... We would like you tell us briefly, and how you saw it.

Mathilde: We learnt about the death of Habyarimana on 6th [April 1994] at night. We tried to flee but we were told it was not possible at all because all
roads and paths were blocked off. On 7th early morning, we were told that none was allowed to leave his home.

Mathilde: Around 11 am, one of our neighbors, a native of Ruhengeri came and told us: If you have somewhere to hide, you can go on now. You are at risk to be
killed." I suggested my husband to flee and he said: "That is not worth it. It may be rumors. We might not be risking anything in staying here." I told him: " am scared, let me go away."

Mathilde: I took my children and went to St Andre parish. We left my husband at home. On the same 7th day, as our neighbor had said, our home was attacked
but fortunately I and my children had already fled away. My husband glanced out through the window to see who was ringing at the gate. He saw soldiers surrounded by Interahamwe. He ran
immediately behind the house and jumped over the fence, militiamen ran after him and shot him on his arm, he did not fortunately die. He fled away and came to join us at St Andre.

Mathilde: We were so many in the hideout that I couldn't see him, not even talk to him. We spent a night there. On the following day, militiamen came to kill
everybody there. I managed to escape the massacres as I had gone home to look for something to drink for my husband and when I returned to the place, militiamen were already killing people. I
ran around looking for my children and I found them alive. People were running here and there, everybody who tried to get out of the parish got killed. I ran away and hid in the bush round
about.

Martin: I want you to be more specific about that attack of 8th [April 1994], you say it was on which day?

Mathilde: On the 8th [April 1994]

Martin: The militia was led by an Interahamwe called Kigingi who lived in Nyamirambo. How were they killing people? Try to tell us a bit more in detail.

Mathilde: The militia was led by an Interahamwe called Kigingi who lived in Nyamirambo. They were with soldiers. They came and ordered us to get out, we got
out all. They ordered us to separate, Hutus on one side and Tutsis the other side. I told them: "I am a Hutu." They looked at me and said: "Is this really a Hutu?" I said: "My mother is a Tutsi
but my father is a Hutu."

Mathilde: They let me free... Tutsis were put aside and everybody who appeared to be like a Tutsi was put aside as well and those who didn't look like Tutsis
were put on their side. Whoever was put on the side of Tutsis was straightaway shot. Interahamwe came afterwards and hacked people with machetes and hit them with clubs. People on the Hutu side
were left alive... from Mumena for example, people [Tutsis] mingled together with some scared Hutus. I went along with Hutus.

Martin: So you went on the side of Hutus. What happened after? Where did you go afterwards?

Mathilde: I had found my young child, the oldest had run away. I went looking for my young child... I mean the older. I looked for her in vain; I turned
around and missed her. I was not really caring as I was seeing people lying down dead and my child missing... I felt it was no longer a matter to die but the fact of loving life led me to a
gully that was round about. By chance I found my elder child hiding there too. She was only five, however she could hide well. I joined her and we stayed there for about five days along. After
that, we went to the priests' convent of Karoli Rwanga parish.

Martin: So you went to Karoli Rwanga parish, that's where you could go, that's where you could get a hideaway. Since that time, did any other militia attacks
come to run after you?

Mathilde: There were many attacks directed to us but the priests of Nyamirambo were so good people and protected us. There were children who had fled from
Nyacyonga, they were grouped together aside and when militiamen came, the priests showed those children saying: "These are the only people we have, they are orphans from Nyacyonga." The priests
always showed those children, they never delivered us. One day a huge militia attack came, it was probably on the 9th June.

Mathilde: We used to ask the priests to get our children away because we knew that at the end of the day we were going to die. The priests brought white men
and told us that they were Red Cross agents but I finally knew they were journalists.

Mathilde: Thereafter, Interahamwe came to shoot people. Soldiers also came and saw that there were some old people. On 10th or 11th a huge attack came to
exterminate all the people who were there.

Martin: Still talking about that, I want you tell us more details about that attack, how was exactly the situation. Because you see, someone who was not
there can hardly understand what was really happening. As one who witnessed the facts, we want you to explain clearly. How the attacking troop came? How did they kill people? How many people
were in the hideaway? How many survived? Stuff like that.

Mathilde: I cannot just give the exact number of people who were there, however I can guess they were about two hundred or a hundred and tens. A while
before, on 9th, came a troop of soldiers, I happened to recognize one called MUNYAKAZI. He came and searched for us in different rooms we were hidden in. We talked to him praying to save our
children, we knew it was not possible to save us all but at least our children. He said: "On va voir." Which means: "we will see." he replied in French.

Martin: The Munyakazi we know?

Mathilde: The famous General of the army. On 10th, they came saying there were to save us. They had a car and told the priest: "Open the door, we just came
to save women." Men were always hidden in the ceiling, they had never been seen

Mathilde: The priest refused to open the door. The soldiers were angry and threw teargas grenades to us, young children died immediately. They told us not to
be scared, that we were going to be safe. We rushed into the car but looking at how we were piled up like stones, though we were frightened, it seemed somehow doubtful about our fate. How could
they save people crammed so?

Mathilde: We were packed into the car and many were left down, I was in the car too. I immediately noticed that my elder daughter was not in. I pleaded to
the soldiers: Please, I beg you, let me go and bring my child. They refused first but at the end they let me go. My young child was still a baby, I was keeping her on my back. I got off the car
and went looking for my child. I found her and when I came back to the car people were being hit with gun butts and sticks, they were also shot.

Mathilde: Then I said to myself: "These soldiers are not saving us, they want to kill us." I stayed there staring at how people were being piled up. The car
left... They did not go far, they were all killed at Rafiki. You know that it is a few minutes from St Andre to Rafiki. The car came back and packed in other people.

Mathilde: There was a young girl with us; she went and told an Interahamwe, I assume they knew each other. She told him: "I am a Hutu." The militiaman
replied: "If you are a Hutu, what are you doing here? Go there aside." I also did the same and said: "I am a Hutu too." He said: "Go there too." I went aside but after a while I wanted to
leave.

Mathilde: I first of all went to the car of Munyakazi, he was back. I told his driver: "Can you take me to Saint Paul?" He did not tell me anything.
Munyakazi came, his car was a double-cabin. He asked me: "Where are you going?" I said: "I want you take me to Saint Paul." He opened the door and said: "get out."

Mathilde: I got out the car and stood where I was before. I looked at what was happening and I returned back in the house. I went to the ladies toilet and I
remained at the entrance. All the remaining people were brought away and killed. I don't think ten of them survived.

Martin: You mean from 200 people, you do not estimate even ten survivors?

Mathilde: Not ten people survived.

Martin: So everything was over or the survivors remained there?

Mathilde: No, we did not remain there. We scattered here and there, each one looking for a hideaway. I went back to the gully I was in before. The priests we
were together came and joined me in the gully, they were maybe looking for hideaway too.Half an hour after, one of them said: "Let me go and find soldiers at St Andre to help us get out of
here."

Mathilde: He climbed out of the gully and fell into gunfire from Rebero targeting Nyamirambo. The other priest got out of the gully to rescue his co-priest,
they left us alone there. I was alone with my children, there was a young girl in the bush nearby there. She saw me and came to join us. She told me: "I saw you, we were together." Her mother
had been killed and her five siblings likewise.

Mathilde: She told me: "I saw you and believed you are my mother." I told her: "Come with us, henceforth I am your mother." We stayed in the gully for two
days and on the third day, maybe because of hunger and mosquito bites, my children started crying. Soldiers from St Andre came and took us out of the gully. I wished they would kill us, I had
gone off living.

Mathilde: The man who took us out of the gully was very kind to us, he took us to St Andre and we spent our night there. He came back to see us in the
morning and asked: "Where do you want to go?" I feared to say Mumena because it was said that Inkotanyi were there. I said: "I want to go to Nyakabanda." He asked then: "At who's house?" I did
not know anyone from Nyakabanda and I said: "Listen, I knew someone living at Mumena, if you can come with me there, I may find him."

Mathilde: He called on an Interahamwe to help me and the one who came was someone I knew. Militiamen were people we knew, there were people we used to send
to market for us, there were porters. He saw me and came to greet me, he said: "Are you still alive?" I answered: "Yes I am." Seeing a porter holding a gun!! He might not even know how to use
it. He saw me off back to Mumena.

Mathilde: I arrived to Mumena and noticed that the slaughter was not as high as elsewhere but I was still scared however I had no choice, I had to go for
death or life. I told the Interahamwe: "My husband told me that you and him were friends, I came to you as a friend of my husband. You can save me, if you also want to kill me, go ahead, there
is no problem."

Mathilde: I had a cheque book on me and I told him: "I have some money on my account, I can sign you a cheque and when the crisis is over you can go and get
the money at the bank, you can even go there right now." I signed three million on the cheque but I knew there was no such amount on my account. I was just tricking him to save my life. He
brought me in a house where he had already hidden two young girls. We spent two days there and Inkotanyi troops took control of the region. It was the time of conquering Kigali.

Martin: So if I come a little back in your testimony, you have been talking about your husband when he was shot and escaped the killers. Can you now try to
tell us how he died? Where was he when he died?

Mathilde: I never knew about his death, I saw him for the last time then.

Martin: You never knew?

Mathilde: No.

Martin: I would like to ask you a tough question, I am very sorry for that; What is the most important Personality of your husband you will never
forget?

Mathilde: It is not very easy to talk about that... however I know that he was a very calm man and kind to even strangers. He was sociable to everyone. Even
those who were hunting him lived in the same neighborhood with us; he used to help them getting to the hospital when they were sick.

Martin: I beg your excuses again; I would like you tell us briefly; we have been talking about your father's family. You said there were all exterminated,
have you ever learnt about how they died and maybe who killed them?

Mathilde: I never knew about that.

Martin: Haven't you even known where they might have died?

Mathilde: I just know that they died at Kibuye because they lived there, but I know nothing about how they died, where they were thrown, nothing. This is not
an easy issue, I am very sorry.

Martin: You have talked about a young girl who joined you in the gully where you were hiding, the one whose mother and siblings were all killed. Can you
remember her name?

Mathilde: Her name is Uwanyirigira.

Martin: She is also called Uwanyirigira. What happened after, did you continue being with her along?

Mathilde: We walked together during the war [genocide] and when it was over, we stayed together. A good while after, she found her father who took her with
him. However, she is a child in my family as my own children. Very often, she is with us when on holidays. She is grown up, she must be in senior 5.

Martin: You lived at Mumena, it is close to St Andre. We can say that most of the people who hide in St Andre were from round about. I think there may also
be some from the neighborhood who came to kill people apart from soldiers themselves. Haven't you recognized some of your neighbours from Mumena in the killing troops at St Andre and
around?

Mathilde: I only happened to recognize an Interahamwe called Kigingi. He is the one I knew living at Mumena. However I learnt that some people who stayed in
quarter may have been indicated by their neighbors to be killed. There were many intellectuals, they just indicated who to kill here and there. We publicly knew very few but of course there
are.

Martin: I may probably have forgotten to ask you something about what happened where you were hidden. May you have anything I did not ask about in what
concerns the killings of St Andre's parish Karoli Rwanga? You probably have some clarifications to make about that before we continue.

Mathilde: Do you think it is easy to talk about those killings? The slaughter was too grave and unimaginable. I sometimes think about what I saw and I say:
"It must be a nightmare, I cannot have seen such atrocities with my own eyes." I told you I stayed in the gully for about five days; however I saw too bad thinks during that while. I do not
know how to say it.

Martin: I want you make an effort to tell more in detail what atrocities you really witnessed, if you don't mind. I mean that you would better tell us
exactly how were people killed, were they shot, clubbed or whatever. I want you describe the slaughter of that time. Can you try?

Mathilde: I remember a man, he was a teacher, he was a professor of high school at St Andre, and his name was Bonaparte. Interahamwe hurled stones at him. He
was very tall and sturdy but seeing little devils who stoned him to death, beating him with sticks and bludgeoning him and I cannot find words to mean it.

Mathilde: There is another scene I won't ever forget, it is of a young boy, he was about thirteen. Some men came and started kicking him. I was in a gully
and a bush was over me. They kicked him to death, they left him there breathless some seconds before his death.

Mathilde: He had seen me in my hideaway, he was looking at me and he desperately crawled towards me. He made signs revealing that he was in need of water, he
was thirsty. I could not do anything for him, I kept on hiding my eyes for not to continue seeing him. There happened regrettable killings in that area, it is unimaginable.

Martin: During those times of sorrow, people endured many unfortunate matters and they were hopeless. There are even some who came to deny the existence of
God. Considering sorrows you lived, do you still believe in God?

Mathilde: I strongly believe in God, he did great things to me. He saved me and proved me his existence. See for example On 7th, I hid under a car and I had
lost my child. The car was Tasiyana's, she had been shot, his grandchild on her back, under my eyes. I hid under her car, it was a Suzuki, and I was seeing all the people dying.

Mathilde: They stopped killing people when it rained a lot. I was forced to go and hide in the gully because of that rain. I could not imagine what protected
me against getting caught, it is probably God who protected me. Something else that made me believe in God is that my lost child was only 5 and I found her in the gully, it is God who led me
there. We were hunted by dogs and they often found us and smelled us but they did not bark at all. I believe in God and I believe that it is him who saved me.

Martin: What you say is really true, it truly happened as you say and some of the agitators are still free. You probably meet some of them and others are in
jail. So, you as a genocide survivor, do you think those people who did genocide can be excused?

Mathilde: It is a very tough problem. Forgiving those people is not an easy matter and it does not even seem very worth it. On my side, I would like those
people get punished, they deserve to be severely punished. It is difficult to see a killer saying his mea culpa that he killed five or ten people and he gets freed.

Mathilde: None of them can come and tell you: "I killed your mother, I killed your brother, I killed your child and I beg your pardon". I am afraid my
excuses are far to be granted, I am really afraid. I don't know how to say it. To grant them pardon is not easy at all, we cannot do them any harm but to pardon someone who does not really
apologize is hard.

Martin: Of course, the genocide set many people lamentably miserable and took away many other families. As you said, God helped some to survive and life is
still going on though hardly. I now want you to tell us about your life after genocide.

Mathilde: I thank God for everything he did for me after genocide. I did not have any serious problem. I survived of course and I tried to rehabilitate my
house, it had been a bit demolished. I came to take care of my two daughters. The elder is now in university. I also happened to adopt some four children whom I now bring up in my family.

Mathilde: However, apart from me, life is very hard for many of genocide survivors. I sometimes look at widows living with about five children added to other
family orphans. Life is hard though there is a fund to support them but sometimes for example; children who go to school are obliged to get some level of success to get FARG's schooling
support. In some cases they are not helped.

Mathilde: When you are in such conditions, you wonder how you will live with all those children without what to feed them. Life after genocide is not easy at
all. Maybe 20% of the survivors live decently but the left 80% live in destitution. Many of them do not have houses where to live, others do not even have what to put on and others are
wandering in the streets. Generally, life of after genocide is very difficult.

Martin: In general, as a 1994 genocide survivor, what may be your message to other genocide survivors?

Mathilde: The main message I can send to genocide survivors is to walk straight. Life still goes on, we were killed but we did not die. We lost a lot of
ourselves. It is not easy for other people to understand our pain, survivors shouldn't give up and let life go on. They have to stand strong, widows have to know their responsibility to bring
up their children, to take care of them [and make sure they get educated. They have then to take care of their own lives]

Mathilde: That is the message I can give them. It is not easy at all for genocide survivors to live with people who killed our families. There are still
hatching plots to take our lives. I just call upon survivors to be strong and war [genocide]n authorities in case of insecurity. The chance we have is that our authorities handle and understand
our problems, so we have to live, this cannot be the end of our lives.

Martin: There is one question I would like to come back on. You saw that people were horribly killed and thrown everywhere, it is something that never
happened before in our culture. When someone died of sickness or other matter, he had to be honorably buried. I want to come up asking you whether you buried your husband or not.

Mathilde: I did not bury my husband. I never knew how he died, where he was killed, nothing. I last saw him at St Andre, people were running here and there.
If he died there or somewhere else, I do not know. I could not have buried him. I did not even know how he died.

Martin: We can assume that he may have been buried around in the country with lots of others who died everywhere.

Mathilde: I also hope so.

Martin: I think we can also say that one day the killers of your husband may be caught and reveal where he was thrown so that he can be honorably buried. We
always see people who find bodies of their dead family members and bury them. I would like to ask you; you know that when bodies of our people get found, they are buried in different memorial
sites in the country. Especially as a genocide survivor, how would you like we keep memory of them?

Mathilde: On my side, I always remember them, we do not have to forget them at all. We have had chance to survive and we have to try our best to make sure
that each and every genocide victim gets buried in honor. That is what I really wish.

Mathilde: If we could only have chance that killers reveal where they put people they killed so that they get buried. For the rest, I do not think anyone
should forget them, it is something we have always to make sure it is not forgotten. I think everybody think about them every day. Myself, I never spend a day without thinking about them. We
should remember them day and night, it may help us stop from genocide to happen again.

Martin: Approaching the end, when you think about your descendants, I mean grandchildren and great grandchildren. Normally children born and when they do not
see their grandparents they ask why; what means that they will experience some genocide consequences. Generally in our culture children born and see their grandfather or grandmother but because
of genocide children will miss them. I want you now give an advice to the youth, I mean, what you may like to hand on your descendants, though you experienced hard life, you may certainly have
a wish to the youth of tomorrow.

Mathilde: My very first thing I wish to the youth of tomorrow is not to live what we lived. I would not nevertheless wish they ignore our history. Of course
I cannot hide them the truth as, for example, my older daughter knew her father, she had started calling: Dad... Not to tell the truth to a child who never said such a word is not good at all.
By my own means I will tell them what happened.

Mathilde: I may insist on calling them to fight for that such a misfortune do not happen again. We cannot afford hiding them the truth of our history. Our
children have to know why they did not see their grandfathers, grandmothers and fathers. There are even some who did not know any of their parents. I think it cannot be a good think not to
teach them our history. We can tell them to make their future better and live in solidarity and unity, however they have to know whatever happened.

Mathilde Uwanyirigira shares her story before,
during, and after the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi. She survived at
Nyarugenge District. Her testimony is given in Kinyarwanda with English
translation and subtitles available.