Suggested changes to this forum

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ReMark
12

ReMark 12

I think we need to rethink how the AutoLISP forum is now set up with regards to the "established" routines that use to appear in the AutoLISP Archive. Now instead of a couple dozen or more posts there are, as of last count, 6,496 posts to wade through. Thank God I remember some of the routines like M2S and Helix but trying to find any of the others is near impossible now.

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The Buzzard
10

The Buzzard 10

I think we need to rethink how the AutoLISP forum is now set up with regards to the "established" routines that use to appear in the AutoLISP Archive. Now instead of a couple dozen or more posts there are, as of last count, 6,496 posts to wade through. Thank God I remember some of the routines like M2S and Helix but trying to find any of the others is near impossible now.

I never knew there were that many routines in the Archive before. If it ever does grow, It would be nice to see routines sorted by Discipline Categories as well as many of the miscellaneous ones that donot apply to disciplines. To just toss them all in by last posted, author or however its done could get a bit confusing. The search capability on this forum is not so reliable.

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The Buzzard
10

The Buzzard 10

Ok ReMark, It just sunk in. You were referring to the current amount of threads in this forum. I got it now. I do not like the idea of a routine posted in the Archive unless it is done by the Author. Currently there are two routines there now that were put in there by people other than the Author. That can mislead people into thinking that the programs were created by the people who posted them. I know I would not like that done to me and anyone who writes a routine I am sure feels the same way. If a routine goes into the Archive it should be by the person who wrote it with headers for permissions and disclaimer and no exceptions. Some may feel different about this. Sorry.

Edited August 6, 2010 by The Buzzard

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Se7en
0

Se7en 0

And that's fine, but we aren't giving the non-elite user a chance to show off his code. Go look at theSwamp. There's a section for AutoLISP questioning, etc. and a section called "Show Your Stuff". In the Show section, anyone can post something they're proud of or found, and a discussion ensues from there, but EVERYONE gets a chance to show off something they are proud of, not just the 'elite'.

I just don't like the idea of someone feeling inferior because they haven't been coding as long or don't have as high of a post count. If a person writes something that's useful to them, then it's good to someone and might be useful to another. If we stifle this kind of attitude by saying that the 'archive' should only be there for select individuals and/or routines, then we severely limit the amount of shared data.

Think about this, each person who posts something in the archive section also creates a thread in the autolisp section to discuss the routine. Two threads for one topic just seems a little silly.

*sigh*

What is this fascination with titles? I hate titles! If these separations based upon "perceived" abilities start happening, I may make a sport of taking "guru people" down a notch or two. "Feelings" shouldn't be involved as much they are (this is a deep psychology discussion i would love to be apart of if anyone is interested. Ive had this discussion before and i found it very fun).

The idea of two threads is a stupid idea.

EDIT:

I just wanted to add: alanjt, i quoted you because i agree with your stance on the title issue.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Se7enclarification: note to alanjt

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CADTutor 60

CADTutor 60

There is no restriction on anyone posting AutoLISP routines (and VBA, .NET... whatever). They can be posted in any appropriate forum. As usual, we expect a discussion to follow, during which the author (whoever they are and not one of a so-called "elite") may wish to improve his/her work. When the community and the author are satisfied with the result and if it is deemed useful, the OP containing the most up-to-date version of the routine can be copied to the Application Archive forum. This is simply to make it easier to find useful routines and as an assurance to the user that the routine has been tested.

For me, this is a simple, logical and egalitarian solution.

If you have any objection to this process, please let me know what it is.

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CADTutor 60

CADTutor 60

The only variation on the process above may be to add an additional forum for people (anyone!) to showcase their work.

This forum is now one of the busiest on the board and it seems reasonable to split it if it will make this place easier to use and less cluttered. So, the existing "AutoLISP..." and ".NET..." forums remain as the place for anyone to ask questions and a new forum "Application Showcase" perhaps, can be used for anyone to post their work. We then apply the same principle as in the post above. After a discussion and improvements, the routine can be copied to the Application Archive for ease of access with a link back to the original thread.

For obvious reasons, posting in the Archive is limited to Mods.

Any objection to this idea?

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The Buzzard
10

The Buzzard 10

There is no restriction on anyone posting AutoLISP routines (and VBA, .NET... whatever). They can be posted in any appropriate forum. As usual, we expect a discussion to follow, during which the author (whoever they are and not one of a so-called "elite") may wish to improve his/her work. When the community and the author are satisfied with the result and if it is deemed useful, the OP containing the most up-to-date version of the routine can be copied to the Application Archive forum. This is simply to make it easier to find useful routines and as an assurance to the user that the routine has been tested.

For me, this is a simple, logical and egalitarian solution.

If you have any objection to this process, please let me know what it is.

I agree with that David.

This is essentially what I have been saying all along. Anyone can showcase their routine in the existing forum, But it is a good idea to get the feedback to improve the program before it is archived. You do not need to be elite to post in the archive, Just have a clean running, error free program with a link to post additional comments back to the original thread. Why archive a program full of errors? Why create a another forum to post codes for showcasing, The existing forum has been doing that all along.

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The Buzzard
10

The Buzzard 10

To my knowledge nobody ever made that claim except possibly by someone new who may have wanted to post a code in the archive and was turned down. I looked at that Show Your Stuff forum at the Swamp and practically everyone there that has posted is an accomplished programmer. Any inexperienced programmer that would have the notion to post a code there would feel intimidated in their company.

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Se7en
0

Se7en 0

@CADTutor, I apologize for this post (I wont do it again). I try not to talk about other forums while on a forum (it is BAD netiquette).

@everyone else

At theSwamp there is not any intimidation; we attempt to teach more then just bounce code for answers. The idea is that we never look down upon anyone. If an inexperienced person posted to the `show your stuff' forum we wouldnt think anything of it because we all know that you have to start somewhere and who really cares if its not up to `Bob's' standard (and this next statement may get me in trouble) and, to be honest, who's place is it to say that, that code isnt good enough for someone to be proud of.

About the titles, I really dont like the attitudes of some people (not here or there just on other sites) and how they think they are better then others. I guess it is the softer side of me because if i sense an attitude from a so-called guru i will go out of my way to make him/her look foolish.

@The Buzzard

Yes there was a claim to that notion. Several times. I know it was innocent but the `separation' is still there. The whole reason im posting in this thread is because i already know where it will lead (I'm trying to help). For example: How will code be deemed good enough to be added to the Archive forum? Who will make that decision? I imagine it will be a nomination from some member in the form of: "Hey, this is cool. Can we add this to the Archive?" which is great but not really fair to both the inexperienced and experienced because certain criteria could/will be established or a lack of understanding of what was offered.

To explain that `Lack of understanding' comment: Someone (a long time ago) commented on a snip-it of my code but they seemingly missed the whole point about my example. I was trying to show the solution in terms of LOGIC and they were trying to look at the CODE (they saw a fancy trick when it really was a simple logistic offering).

Please note:

1. I know you used the words "experienced" and "inexperienced" and i do appreciate that.

2. I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm honestly just trying to help (offer solid, good, constructive opinions).

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CADTutor 60

CADTutor 60

I value the views of all members here and your comments are important.

I think there may be a basic misunderstanding in the argument as this thread has developed. At no time has our/my intention been to infer that any sort of hierarchy should be used to determine the worth of contributions to the forum or as a basis for forum organisation. As at the Swamp, this is a place to learn and beginners are valued just as much as more experienced members.

The basic issue is that the AutoLISP forum has become very popular and very busy and it seems sensible to attempt to organise it better in order to make it easier to use, easier to find things, easier for beginners to get answers to their questions and easier for those who want to publish their applications to do so in order to get comment and fruitful discussion.

I don't believe we need an "us and them" attitude to achieve this, just some plain logic. The fact is that someone, somewhere has to organise these things. Like most forums, we have a number of moderators who look after the place. We don't believe these people are better than anyone else, better AutoCAD users or any kind of an elite, they just help out and, frankly, without them, this place would be chaos.

At theSwamp there is not any intimidation; we attempt to teach more then just bounce code for answers. The idea is that we never look down upon anyone...

If I though any member of this forum was subject to intimidation or that any member looked down on any other, I would be very angry. If you have any evidence of this happening, please PM the details to me.

The points you have made are important but don't get us any closer to a resolution. Perhaps you could suggest a method of organisation that you believe will work and be entirely egalitarian.

but this will allow everyone to post no matter what they think their level is or even if most may not find it profound.

OR

What about just removing the need for two threads (one here and one in the archive section). The archives can still be locked down and only mod's can post. What im thinking is simple; i imagine that a few people are timid about having their code posted along with a critique thread where the general public can ask questions or pick it apart. This way if a user has a question about an archive app the user is forced to create a thread like

sub: (archive: bob's lisp) formula validation

topic: bob where did you get that formula? Ive always used...

Now the second method will result in more (duplicate) threads in the discussion area but that is where vBulletin's similar threads feature can come into play. Well you get my point I think.

***

I am only thinking back to when i was excited to post my newest creation. My first `look at this code' was pitiful (well maybe not my first, prolly my last *lol*) but I also wasn't afraid to post it amongst people like Kenny Ramage, Dave Stein, R. Robert Bell, etc. because of this simple fact.

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The Buzzard
10

The Buzzard 10

I value the views of all members here and your comments are important.

I think there may be a basic misunderstanding in the argument as this thread has developed. At no time has our/my intention been to infer that any sort of hierarchy should be used to determine the worth of contributions to the forum or as a basis for forum organisation. As at the Swamp, this is a place to learn and beginners are valued just as much as more experienced members.

The basic issue is that the AutoLISP forum has become very popular and very busy and it seems sensible to attempt to organise it better in order to make it easier to use, easier to find things, easier for beginners to get answers to their questions and easier for those who want to publish their applications to do so in order to get comment and fruitful discussion.

I don't believe we need an "us and them" attitude to achieve this, just some plain logic. The fact is that someone, somewhere has to organise these things. Like most forums, we have a number of moderators who look after the place. We don't believe these people are better than anyone else, better AutoCAD users or any kind of an elite, they just help out and, frankly, without them, this place would be chaos.

If I though any member of this forum was subject to intimidation or that any member looked down on any other, I would be very angry. If you have any evidence of this happening, please PM the details to me.

The points you have made are important but don't get us any closer to a resolution. Perhaps you could suggest a method of organisation that you believe will work and be entirely egalitarian.

Two ideas:

How about the simplest solution like, just make an open repository for people to post what they like. There can be rules like:

o revise the first post for any revisions to the program, concept, etc.

but this will allow everyone to post no matter what they think their level is or even if most may not find it profound.

OR

What about just removing the need for two threads (one here and one in the archive section). The archives can still be locked down and only mod's can post. What im thinking is simple; i imagine that a few people are timid about having their code posted along with a critique thread where the general public can ask questions or pick it apart. This way if a user has a question about an archive app the user is forced to create a thread like

sub: (archive: bob's lisp) formula validation

topic: bob where did you get that formula? Ive always used...

Now the second method will result in more (duplicate) threads in the discussion area but that is where vBulletin's similar threads feature can come into play. Well you get my point I think.

***

I am only thinking back to when i was excited to post my newest creation. My first `look at this code' was pitiful (well maybe not my first, prolly my last *lol*) but I also wasn't afraid to post it amongst people like Kenny Ramage, Dave Stein, R. Robert Bell, etc. because of this simple fact.

Please do not misinterpret me. When I refer to intimidating, I am refering to the quality of the coding from people at the Swamp verses the average poster here. It is two different worlds apart. I would say it is unfair to make these comparisons, But many use the Swamp as some sort of example. I like the way this forum is setup and I also like the diversity here. It gives this forum some sort of balance. One time I wanted to post a code in the archive and was turned down. I recall a feeling of unfairness then, But as time went on I began to understand the reason. I do not feel it is needed to have another forum that essentially does the same thing as the forum we have now. Thats my point. I believe your point is to a have a special place to post codes regardless of expertise, But the forum we have been using all this time has been doing that, Although I guess it not special enough to some. This forum will change regardless of my point verses yours or anyone else for that matter. All I am doing is debating the issue. I do not like having my words taken out of context.

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CADTutor 60

CADTutor 60

Guys, I think this thread may have run its course, which is why I am closing it (please don't beat me over the head with calls of "censorship!").

Ironically, this debate seems to have emerged from a state of mutual agreement - not sure how that happened. Ultimately, both The Swamp and CADTutor are based on the same ideals. As Kerry states, they are both self-help communities that encourage peer-to-peer debate and support. That's not to say they are the same, they're not and some may have a preference for one or for the other. That doesn't make one right and the other wrong - just different.

Some reorganisation of the AutoCAD Customization forums has already taken place during the debate with a new dedicated section to the forum and a splitting off of some topic categories. It's already looking more ordered but I will consider further changes if that seems necessary.

The last point to be made is that this debate has arisen as a result of a massive increase in interest in AutoCAD programming techniques. That should be a cause for celebration. I don't think I've seen such creativity either here at CADTutor or over at The Swamp for a long time - that's a big "thumbs up" for everyone involved.