Thoughts from the interface of science, religion, law and culture

After spending several years touring the country as a stand up comedian, Ed Brayton tired of explaining his jokes to small groups of dazed illiterates and turned to writing as the most common outlet for the voices in his head. He has appeared on the Rachel Maddow Show and the Thom Hartmann Show, and is almost certain that he is the only person ever to make fun of Chuck Norris on C-SPAN.

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Bachmann’s Dominionist Endorser

Right Wing Watch reports on George Grant, a Christian Reconstructionist author who recently endorsed the candidacy of Michele Bachmann. Here’s the video of that endorsement:

But as Box Turtle Bulletin reported three years ago, Grant supports the execution of gay people. And for those who think that the dominionism is just some invented boogeyman that doesn’t really exist, here is Grant proving otherwise:

Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ – to have dominion in the civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.

But it is dominion that we are after. Not just a voice.

It is dominion we are after. Not just influence.

It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.

It is dominion we are after.

World conquest. That’s what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less.

If Jesus Christ is indeed Lord, as the Bible says, and if our commission is to bring the land into subjection to His Lordship, as the Bible says, then all our activities, all our witnessing, all our preaching, all our craftsmanship, all our stewardship, and all our political action will aim at nothing short of that sacred purpose.

Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land – of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ. It is to reinstitute the authority of God’s Word as supreme over all judgments, over all legislation, over all declarations, constitutions, and confederations. True Christian political action seeks to rein the passions of men and curb the pattern of digression under God’s rule.

He’s after total control to impose a Reconstructionist vision for America. And he thinks Michele Bachmann is the person to do it. Enough said.

Comments

And for those who think that the dominionism is just some invented boogeyman that doesn’t really exist…

I’ve had this discussion with those who have warned of these people before — it’s not that I don’t think dominionism doesn’t exist, and it’s not that I don’t think that some of their leaders can’t find themselves in influential positions to help implement certain conservative Christian sacred cows, like anti-abortion legislation, it’s that I find it difficult to be convinced that there is the slightest threat that dominionism or reconstuctionism will ever gain enough traction amongst the American population to “claim dominion” over any part of our society.

Abortion has long been the defining issue for all conservative Christian’s, with the claim that life begins at conception being a central tenet, and yet they couldn’t even pass the “fetal personhood” amendment in one of the most conservative states in the nation. And while gay marriage is still a big battle, the time when anyone could openly advocate for making the homosexual act itself illegal and be taken seriously has long passed.

Dominionists are only a threat to the extent they can subversively help promote the conservative social agenda in small ways, out of the spotlight. There is no appetite in America for dominionism itself, and I very much doubt there ever will be.

it’s that I find it difficult to be convinced that there is the slightest threat that dominionism or reconstuctionism will ever gain enough traction amongst the American population to “claim dominion” over any part of our society.

You are wrong.

Every society that ever existed has fallen. Our American civilization will fall one day. There are always forces that want to destroy them and us. Ours right now are the xian fundies.

And there a lot of them.

1. Just about all the fundie toad leaders are Dominionists.

2. They have their own political party, the Tea Party/GOP.

3. The fundies run around 60 million people, 20-30% of the population.

They won’t win their culture war. That New Dark Age just isn’t selling well. But they found a better target. The economy. It turns out that modern economies are finely balanced and easily derailed.

Bush did so much damage in 8 years without even trying that the Federal Reserve is projecting a recovery to take 10 years, 2018. One more Tea Party president and you can add another decade at least. This is a lost generation.

Bush did so much damage in 8 years without even trying that the Federal Reserve is projecting a recovery to take 10 years, 2018. One more Tea Party president and you can add another decade at least. This is a lost generation.

Not the same thing at all. I wholeheartedly agree that right-wing conservatives–especially those who are religious–are the major problem facing American society today, and while most of them may profess to be Christians who want America to return to “Biblical values” I think you will find that a majority of that 20% would baulk when it came to implementing the full-blown dominionist agenda. In fact, I doubt that very many of them really know much about it.

While the parallel is not wholly accurate, it’s like the difference between socialism and communism. Communists have many reasons to find common cause with socialists in a democratic nation, but just because a country wholeheartedly implements socialist policies, doesn’t mean there is a great danger that it will become a communist state. Even when socialism was at its height in the UK back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, there wasn’t any realistic chance of a communist takeover of the country. Yet to a conservative person at the time, the entire political system was so awash with hard left-wing ideology that the transition to communism was only a matter of time.

In the same way, right-wing conservatives have come to dominate American politics in the last 30 years, but that does not mean that dominionism is around the corner, or that there is a serious risk that it could be. From what I have observed of the American people as a whole, that would be a step too far, even for fellow conservatives.

I think you will find that a majority of that 20% would baulk when it came to implementing the full-blown dominionist agenda.

Not buying it.

Just because you think it is silly and stupid to go back to a theocratic Dark Age, doesn’t mean the christofascists believe the same.

It is just the standard Argument from Ignorance and Personal Incredulity.

History, especially recent history is full of small groups that gained control of societies and destroyed them. The Nazis, the commies, the Fascists, North Korea, Somalia, Iran, Cambodia.

To take just one example. Pol Pot and the Khymer Rouge took over Cambodia and murdered 1 million people, over 10% of the population while setting it back to some agrarian middle ages dystopia and attempting to wipe out Cambodian culture. According to you, a small minority of weird commies should never have been able to do that. It happens all the time though.

To keep going, the Afghanistan Taliban did the same thing. They didn’t have that much support either.

History, especially recent history is full of small groups that gained control of societies and destroyed them. The Nazis, the commies, the Fascists, North Korea, Somalia, Iran, Cambodia.

None of those regimes had to destroy a mature democratic society first, and that’s what it would take for a dominionist regime to assume power.

I will grant that if some major cataclysmic event occurs, such as a nuclear war, or the Yellowstone caldera blanketing the entire US with a thick layer of ash, then a dictatorial regime could step into the void, but absent that, I don’t see it happening.

I do find it fascinating how so many Americans, who live in one of the longest lasting, most stable democratic nations on the planet, are so paranoid about the possibility that they’re only a short step away from tyranny and collapse. Things are pretty tough in other places at the moment too, like Greece, and Italy, and even the UK, but I don’t think there is quite the same amount of fear that everything will suddenly all come tumbling down and anarchy will result. (That doesn’t mean people aren’t afraid of an economic meltdown, which is a distinct possibility, but that’s a different beast.)

It’s like the right-wing paranoia over Iran. There is absolutely no way that Iran could pose an existential threat to the USA, but many of them are still freaking out about it. The odds are that even if Iran gets the nuclear weapon, they are unlikely to use it on anyone, not even Israel, since that would likely mean the end to their nation too, but that doesn’t still the drumbeat for war from continuing.

Anyway, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. The bottom line is that the dominionist leaders need to be opposed either way, since even if they don’t present an existential threat to the American way of life, they can and do promote public policies that can harm specific people, whether that is women, gays, or children. I just think we need to keep things in perspective.

World conquest. That’s what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less.

And if that doesn’t work, then do what we always do when we want our way in the name of jaysus–kill them all!

None of those regimes had to destroy a mature democratic society first, and that’s what it would take for a dominionist regime to assume power.

America’s democracy is not in as good of shape as you seem to think it is. It really is doing very badly right now.

Mature stable democracies don’t have candidates win an election, but have a court rule that the loser wins, rather than having every vote counted. The court in a mature, stable democracy doesn’t overlook systemic abuses of the system by the loser’s party of fraudulently filling out absentee ballots and denying votes to legal voters. Mature stable democracies definitely don’t have two highly questionable presidential elections in a row (2000, 2004).

Mature, stable democracies don’t have the highest incarceration rates in the world. They don’t have a paramilitary thug squad masquerading as police.

All this and much–much–more indicates that America is in trouble, whether or not you want to admit it.

Tacitus, how about a breakdown of the infrastructure, a more serious collapse of the global economy, mass migration, famine, and increasingly hellish storms, all while the general population of low information voters are trying to parse these events using a Book of Revelations filter, or the helpful explanations of Glen Beck?

Global warming is being ignored on the whole by the people in power, or they are actively suppressing media coverage of it. But the storms will get worse nonetheless, oil will run out, crops will fail, and the denialists will double down on rejecting reality, as will the biblical literalists.

The Dominionists will be waiting in the wings, to provide simple explanations (even if they’re wrong), identifying those responsible (liberals, atheists, scientists, and the educated elite), and a game plan for action (ineffectual perhaps, but a great way to let off steam).

I do find it fascinating how so many Americans, who live in one of the longest lasting, most stable democratic nations on the planet, are so paranoid about the possibility that they’re only a short step away from tyranny and collapse.

We aren’t that stable. The US democracy almost died several times. The British burned the White House during the war of 1812. The civil war was incredibly bloody and the North won but it took 5 years. The Great Depression was a trying time.

More to the point, the entire history of civilization has been one civilization after another falling. I’m sure the Romans thought everything was just fine until it all ended. In my lifetime two civilizations have fallen, the British empire and the Soviet empire. I know Russians who lived through that. They never expected it until it happened.

Anyway, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. The bottom line is that the dominionist leaders need to be opposed either way, since even if they don’t present an existential threat to the American way of life, they can and do promote public policies that can harm specific people, whether that is women, gays, or children.

It’s not guaranteed that the christofascists will win. It’s been said that Orwell’s 1984 never happened because some guy named George Orwell wrote a book called…1984.

But you have to oppose them and shine a light on them. If they even manage to accomplish 5% of what they want, we are going to be in bad shape.

The brighter of the xian Dominionists are starting to realize that their New Dark Age isn’t appealing to anyone with a normal mind. They do try to hide their agenda occasionally.

@kermit, well, anything is possible if things get bad enough, but if things do get bad enough, then all bets are off and who knows what will happen, so I just don’t see any point in worrying about such hypotheticals. The dominionists certainly wouldn’t have the battlefield all to themselves, and I’d bet that even under those circumstances, they would be a long shot to be the victors.

I mean, it’s possible that an alien strike force could arrive tomorrow to enslave the entire human race, and there are even some people who believe it’s going to happen, but there seems to be little point in worrying about it.

That may be a little facetious, but it’s to make a point. Under the current system of government, and under circumstances that allow the current system of government to continue (i.e. the democratic institutions survive) then I see only the remotest danger–i.e. hypothetical, not realistic–that dominionists would be able to take over and allowed to implement their policies.

Abortion has long been the defining issue for all conservative Christian’s, with the claim that life begins at conception being a central tenet, and yet they couldn’t even pass the “fetal personhood” amendment in one of the most conservative states in the nation

Tacitus, that ignores how much the antichoice movement has succeeded in eroding a woman’s right to an abortion in so many states in this country. In some states, you can count on one hand the number of doctors who perform abortions, and in several cases, the doctors come in from outside of the state on only designated days.

tacticus“Abortion has long been the defining issue for all conservative Christian’s…”
Actually, until the 70s (and Schaeffer’s influence) it was “a Catholic thing”, making it fairly recent (in the US, about the same time that it was not long politically viable to push back against desegregation, allowing goons like Falwell to rewrite their resumes).
Remarkably, this isn’t even an aside, as Schaeffer was greatly influenced by Rushdoony, Christian Reconstructionist.

Going in a different direction, I think democracy is tremendously under threat because of the European tendency to assume that central bankers can fix everything. With all due respect to bankers and technocrats, once the principle that the people are incompetent to run their own affairs is established, who knows where that might lead?

If we don’t start running our economies properly, we are in definite danger of succumbing to one or another anti-democratic faction. I frankly doubt that the dominionists would get that much traction, but people who are desperate sometimes don’t look too deeply at the solutions they are offered. At the risk of offending Mr Godwin, I will point out that Schicklgruber’s party first came to prominence during the hyperinflation of the 1920s, and then achieved office by claiming to be the only group that could provide a strong government as the Weimar government devolved into factionalism and impotence.

Minorities can be powerful forces, especially the political arms, the GOP & Tea Party, of the richest 1% of US citizens.

An example we’ve seen this past year is the attempt by the Republicans/Teabaggers to deny medical benefits to 9-11 workers who are grievously afflicted and are dying from toxic after affects of the twin tower destruction.

Publicly getting a lot of mileage out of declaring the firefighters, police, etc. as “American Heroes” the conservatives in the House pissed and moaned about ‘procedure’ in an attempt to kill the 9-11 benefits bill by inaction as quietly as possible. I’ll bet they had their reasoning already spun out on how the blame Obama when the bill died. Thankfully the benefits package eventually passed.

Soft Apocalypse, written by Will McIntosh, published in March, 2011 by Night Shade Books (ISBN-13: 978-1597802765), describes a United States crumbling by degrees.

OT, but last month at the Town of Oyster Bay Oyster Fest, I saw a bumpersticker on a truck that read Palin/Bachmann 2012. I didn’t know whether to laugh at the absurdity of it or cry because there’s at least one person out there mentally challenged enough to think that such a pair would be the best leaders this country could hope for.

I thought Guy Fawkes Day was over, but apparently raven has a surplus of effigies lying around. For instance, long-past periods of instability are irrelevant to current stability, and no one, let alone tacitus, is saying that dominionists taking over is outside the realm of possibility. (Also, correcting a factual error: the American Civil War lasted four years [April 1861-April 1865], not five.)

I largely agree with tacitus: even though the notion that there are people out there who want to create a Christian theocracy in America is troubling, the chances of that happening are very slim. Things would have to get a lot worse in America before we would go that way, I think. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be vigilant in watching out for the influence of such people, but it does mean that cries of Visigoths at the gates are a little premature.