It has to do with whether man is responsible for his own actions or not.

You say that man has no responsibility.

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No where in the Bible is it ever said that man is responsible.

Micah 6:8He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Hi Molly,I fail to see how Jonathan loving David has anything to do with anyone being responsible.Jonathan's dad (King Saul) did not have any freedom to love David because God sent an evil spirit to him and made him hate David. Jonathan did not receive any evil spirit from God. How could Saul be responsible for that which he had no control over?God must have put a love for David into Jonathan's heart.

Also, how could any of Israel even want to be Christ's disciple in the first place unless the Father draw them? Remember "they hate Me gratuitously" (without a cause). And God hid these things from them (Jesus said so Himself). Your citatation of Christ demanding hatred of mother, father, children and selfs or they could not be His disciple is dependent upon God giving them that desire. It does not originate within the human. So where is the responsibility in that?

Likewise, Micah 6:8 is dependent upon "He hath showed thee what is good." God has to first open a person's eyes and then God tells us what is required. So again, it is dependent upon God. And if we do any good, it is by the grace of God that we do so. Where is the responsibility in that?

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Zeek

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

The question needs to be asked: Why is man that way? Romans 5:12 and 18a and 19a tells why. They were made sinners due to what Adam did. They were all condemned due to what Adam did. It doesn't say that all mankind were made sinners because they exercised some sort of free-will and accepted what Adam did.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying."Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Paul carries this thought of involuntariness in Romans 8:

Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

So mankind's thoughts are vain due not to free will but due to God's will. Due to God subjecting them not voluntarily to vanity are they vain in their reasonings.

"All avoid Him" not because they could choose otherwise but because they cannot do otherwise.

All mankind is made of flesh and Paul said "the flesh is not able to please God." See Romans 8:6-8. It does not say that man has a freedom to choose to please God if it would just choose to. Paul says man is not able.

Where is the freedom to choose in that?

Tony

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Rom 7:16 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, I am conceding that the law is ideal."Rom 7:17 Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me."Rom 7:18 For I am aware that good is not making its home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not."

From the above we see that Paul was not able to do what he willed.

No free will in that. Next?

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Jonathan's dad (King Saul) did not have any freedom to love David because God sent an evil spirit to him and made him hate David.

Saul started it with his own bad spirit.

7And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands.

8And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?

1 Corinthians 15:57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

If the victory is due to our supposed "free"-will then why thank God? Also the victory is not through the false god called "free-will" but through our Lord Jesus Christ.The victory is God giving us immortality and incorruption which defeats death, not having a power of the false god called "free will."

Molly wrote:

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8And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?

Molly, why was Saul wroth? Yes it can go back to his bad pride. But where did he get that? He got it due to being made vain by God because God subjected the whole creation (Saul included) to vanity, not voluntarily. Was he free to not be vain? No.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 11:23:13 PM by Tony N »

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

--Gen 3

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

"received"G2983λαμβάνωlambanōlam-ban'-oA prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).

That word for 'receive' is not a passive word. Lambano means to take in an active sense, as one takes on a task and vows to do his best to implement it.

al Adam [god Man] was not to be a shirker with a passive job, watching tv while the garden ran itself. He was to be God's husbandman, protecting and tending the garden of God, the son of the right hand, doing the work of the Father.

Main Entry: hus·band·manFunction: nounPronunciation: 'h&z-b&n(d)-m&n1 : one that plows and cultivates land : FARMER

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

Very good Molly. "As many as received Him" is important because as many as received Him could not do so by the will of man but by the will of God.

The grass receives the rain. Does grass have free will to reject the rain? As much grass as receives the rain the grass will turn green.

Are you grass, Tony? Adam was not grass. Grass is passive. Adam was the first modern farmer.

Thanks for proving my point:1Pe 1:24 because All flesh is grass, And all its glory is as the flower of grass. Withered is the grass, And the flower falls off..."

So, Molly, the Scripture contradicts Scripture?

Do you think you are just flesh, Tony?

Who told thee that thou wast naked?

--Gen 3

When Peter says "all flesh" it stands for "all humans" just as "God so loved the world" means "God so loved all mankind."

P.S. I'm not naked. But if I were I would not need anyone to tell me I was. When God asked Adam and Eve who told them they were naked, He knew no one did. He just wanted them to come clean as to how they knew they were naked.

Ezr 1:5 The patriarchal heads of Judah and Benjamin arose, also the priests and the Levites, with everyone whose spirit the One, Elohim, had roused to go up to rebuild the House of Yahweh Who is in Jerusalem.

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

"flesh"G4561σάρξsarxsarxProbably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

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Zeek

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

PRAISE GOD

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

2Cr 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you

Co creators, I and the Father are ONE.

2Cr 6:1 We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

"flesh"G4561σάρξsarxsarxProbably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

What is the "purpose" of grass? Is it not to protect the soil beneath from being washed away and erosion? We are grass . . . we are spirit. it is the covering of the spirit that keeps the earth in us from eroding when the flood of truth flows through us.

Adam was a farmer . .but what is relavant is not just that he planted and kept up a garden . . .keeping in mind that this garden that he was to dress and keep was not a physical place, but spiritual. (God walked with Adam in the cool (spirit/breath) of the day (light/Christ). The things we plant into each other are not carnal things, they're not moral principles, but they are spiritual seeds of truth. They pass through the spirit into the soil of our minds . . .there is a submissive order there. When the mind overtakes the spirit, the earth, the dirt is exposed to the elements and creates a dangerous environment for erosion, for creating ruts, and the nutrients in our topsoil becomes at risk to be washed away at the slightest move of the spirit (water). But the protective covering of grass absorbs that water and let's it soak down into the soil where these seeds of truth lie and as they die in our earth (flesh) they resurrect into a completely different form from which they once were when they were originally planted.

Who'd a thought that a watermelon seed would grow into this huge green oversized loaf of bread with the sweetest watery delacasy? The melon looks nothing like the seed. Even though, it's literlly loaded with those same seeds inside. The things the spirit plants in us now, will birth into something totally different from the form of the words that originally went in us.

But don't let the soil (flesh) protrude through the grass of our being. There is a specific order that we were originally created to flourish in. Let the flesh in us remain beneath the spirit of us so that the water of truth can be evenly dispersed and keep us from experiencing any spiritual landslides or barrenness. Grass is always greener in someone else's yard.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

"flesh"G4561σάρξsarxsarxProbably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

Believing is not the end. It is the beginning.

30And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.

31But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.

32And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.

33And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

--Numbers 13

20And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

21But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

22Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

23Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

24But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

"These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. 2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; 3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: 4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God" (K.J.V.) (Deuteronomy 29:1-6)

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

When the mind overtakes the spirit, the earth, the dirt is exposed to the elements and creates a dangerous environment for erosion, for creating ruts, and the nutrients in our topsoil becomes at risk to be washed away at the slightest move of the spirit (water).

"These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. 2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; 3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: 4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God" (K.J.V.) (Deuteronomy 29:1-6)

that ye might know that I am the LORD your God"

It didn't always work, though, did it?

27How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.

28Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

29Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.