I was ready to give him a second chance, everyone can make stupid and terrible mistakes, especially in their youth. But this guy has unconsiderate asshole written all over him. If he were worse back in his cheating days, i wouldn't really want to know how bad it was then. Don't trust him, he could very well cheat again. This is my analyzis. Take from it what you want.

Do you not find that strange coming from someone who was hiding Lithxiv's new account JustAnotherNewb? Oh and his new one Stratic and 2two. But I suppose then again so were Raw and Q50 amongst a few others. Jus'sayin'

I'm pretty sure you can't relate to a single ounce of what any of us non-cheaters feel, but I'm gonna hint this:

If you had been a non-cheater, seeing someone that was looked up to by some, possibly many, be labeled, with proof, as a cheater, you would in no way be so laid back about this. We're merely suggesting you don't act so high and mighty and at the very least show some fucking humility - Not by saying "sorry omfg was a mistake I was bored so I cheated and now I'm bored again but I don't want to cheat I just want to play quake", but to actually stop being such a troll and start realizing it takes time for the community to even remotely consider accepting you back as one of our own.

Now, not 10 minutes ago I did a post regarding cheaters and what their actual punishment should be, and while I think the softer approach where only a game-only ban should suffice, I firmly believe that tournaments, LAN events and so on and so forth are off-limits for these guys. Had the game been bigger, and had Zhu not been an actual 'somebody', I wouldn't care one bit, but since this guy WAS an actual somebody, I firmly believe the punishment should be felt.

And since he got his ban I have seen nothing but trolling from his part, which is something I normally love to do too, except I don't cheat in a niche competitive video game that, no matter how you put it, mr frenchie anonymous, is something deep in the hearts of many here.
Fucking it up for others in a way that zhu and zeroql - to mention the most impacting of the ones as of late - does not in any way make it acceptable with a single "6 months suspension now you're all good dude lets see your videos and we'll all love you for the man you are in real life!"-ban. It needs to be felt, both by us non-cheaters, and by the cheaters themselves.
If that involves expressing our sincere hate towards the cheater-gone-legit who apparently still keeps trolling, I sure as hell won't step in the way of it. Neither should you or anyone else, honestly.

Im sure as hell not free if you think so, im 100% banned from CTF and TDM still (expect for public but that is pointless anyway). And those 2 mods are the ones i want to play the most. I can only play duel and I hate duel.

You know i understand your point of view. If this guy have cheated against me in some official tourney, i can't imagine forget it easily.

But IMO the fact that's now he can only play some public match is already a good punition. He knows that most of the players now hate him.

But in my point of view, a guy who played many fast fps, just start QL, have average aim and movement, but need tips to play duel, these video are really helpfull. And we can't discuss about it cause the thread is full of rage message.

To sum up, Zhu was a bitch, we can't forget it, he knows it, but these video help me to improve :>

Zhu streams live, and made videos for new players or not so good players like me, and it's really helpful. He never cheated against me. I think he deserves a second chance to do things right, he can use fraps to play with a screenshot taken every 7 seconds (we do that as an improvised anti cheat, it doesn't affect performance even in shitty computers) and he should be allowed to play tournaments. People change :P

I never claimed such a thing. Don't get me wrong, I believe zhu is talented and does a tremendous job with his coaching videos. But as I've said before, I rather eat a shitty pizza made by nice people than a nice pizza made by shitty people if you catch my drift.

Zhu needs to be criticised. He needs to learn that shitty behavior never is the way to go in the long run.

Don't you see that cheating like he did speaks volumes about his character and when he is condecending and act childish even though he claims to have stop cheated, why should we so readily believe him?

Edit: The thought of cheating has never even crossed my mind as I am sure it hasn't for the majority of people playing games online. Why are we so forgiving with bad behavior just because two monitors and a cable separates us? I could give you my views on that, but that is beyond the scope of this post.

Edit 2: Zhu chose to ignore posts when he can't really give good answers to them. He hasn't lied, but is he honest. Recently, a swedish politician boasted about 200.000 jobs having been created since the new government took office,. That is absolutely, 100% correct. But the population increaded so the percentage of people with a job actually decreased. Did she flat out lie? No. Were she honest? You tell me.

I won't thrash Zhu completely, at least not now. If he wants me to tell him why I think he is still a troll and a cheat, can pm me and ask.

Zhu could be a force for positive development in this community, that's why I'm so eager to teach him the lessons he needs. Right now he is just another raper of Quakelive and I love this friggin game, and I love a lot of the people active. I am not shutting up just because someone like you berate my posts.

Give me some concrete criticism instead of trying to assassinate my character outright. God, you are not helping me at all. But as is the case with other trolls, that's not your goal at all. You just want to be a badass internet hero for all your friends to see. Well done, mission accomplished.

Your post fails on every level concievable. You assume that I'm talking about your real life friends far and away from esreality. Well why the fuck would I be talking about them? I am of course talking about your friends here.

And again, you argue like a true newb. Your argument is more or less "look here, listen to this, this guy's oppinion is mine aswell". The type of argument that is most prominent and prevalent in discussions involving angsty teen agers raging about all sorts of stuff they have no clue about.

People may be overreacting but none of those that have ill thoughts of cheaters should be blamed for it. Many of us are gaming quake because of our love for it, because we love the fun we get out of it, the challenge. When the challenge suddenly starts turning into how to not get seen by the wallhack, or how to out aim the aimbot, there really is nothing else to do but to shove away those that use them.

Nowadays it has become such a pain - mostly because of the apparent wide availability of these cheats - that every game you start against a stranger you expect him to cheat.

"None of those that have ill thoughts of cheaters should be blamed for it".

No, of course some people are going to harbor ill thoughts towards someone for cheating, but when someone openly wishes for people to die, or threatening someone with physical trauma, whether it's a sarcastic remark, a rhetoric statement, or whatever, he should be fucking blamed for it. That's WAY more despicable that using unfair means in a computer-game. I don't give a fuck how fun people have in this game, and I don't give a fuck about the passion, if things like that commence. Then I rather people just would stop playing the fucking game then, because I can do without people like that.

There's a limit to how much you can overreact before it becomes morbid. That line was crossed ages ago, and it's fucking despicable.

And people are crying about lack of moral compasses?

Now I'm not saying cheating's a good thing. I think it's a despicable thing as well, but even IF i think it's a despicable thing to do, I find it even more horrendous that people would threat with violence, wishing for people to die, Spreading rumors about him being a child molester. Not only is it wrong, it's illegal and it's proof of that the person in question are fucking trash.

(and I know YOU haven't said anything close to that, but other people have)

No worries, I didn't believe you were insinuating that I did say any of this.

However I wouldn't be surprised if I said something like that, if I turned out to be in a game in which a cheater started racking up aimbottastic kills. I would probably be the first one to say "Go die in a violent fire whilst trying to hang your piece of emo meat body, incredibly lame and sorry excuse of a human being".

To be honest I don't think you're thinking about such a situation, as such would be in affect.

Here in a thread on ESR it's obviously different, so I won't go in to the depth of that.

However.

I do not think at any point anyone actually wants any select cheater to die, when they write it. In this case, the person whom you refer to. Sure we both agree its not something you say to someone, no matter how bad an online-scam or cheat they've pulled in a game, or how bad the traffic-manners the guy has. But he did say it was over the top which ultimately should give you confirmation that, even if it sounds heinous, it's a completely natural way of reacting to some cheater acting proud about it, to take this as an example.

And because of that, I wouldn't even call what he said an over reaction. It's just his way of expressing the disgust of the cheaters actions.

Of course, this shouldn't really turn into a debate, as we all have our different opinions in this, and it really comes down to taste more than most things do. I just wanted to reply for the sake of replying.

Yeah, apparently we have different opinions. Spreading rumors about child-molestation and wishing people to die is not just a way of showing disgust, it's slander and on the top of it, it's despicable.

Mate, it IS just a way of showing disgust. That it is considered over-the-top is something else entirely.

And is not 'spreading rumors', it's 'throwing dirt'. Nobody in their right mind would even consider hearing someone say it as being the truth rather than merely understanding it as a huge 'fuck off' to that person.

But it's also about maintaining some standards and drawing the figurative line in the sand. We're supposed to be civilized, maybe it's time to act like it?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not above throwing some shit around if the mood strikes and the cause is just, but even i think there are some limits of abusive conduct, even if justified, that should never be crossed. The fact that this is "LOL INTERNET" changes nothing.

While I agree with most of what you are saying here, it seems you have decided that uber douchebaggy behavior is inherit in the nature of online conduct and debate. I must dispute that as I really want to believe it's all subject to changing norms and values of the community in question. On the other hand, I think n3uro is overreacting a tad bit here. It's not healty to get too upset about anything on the net. (assuming that he is in fact as enraged as he comes across).

That's contradictory if anything, if you don't mind me saying, because I think it's a bit over the top to go around wishing people to die and calling them child-molesters. It's internet, so why would people get upset of people cheating? It's certainly not healthy getting upset over it.

Now I find cheating to be wrong as well, as I've stated before, but there's such a thing as a limit. I've drawn my line at these points of accusation and remarks. Since I do not agree with what's being said, I'm gonna object to it. That's how I am, I believe in brutal honesty. Nevertheless, there's a limit to how far you can take things though. That line, as said before, was crossed some time ago.

Devil's advocate dropping by. Why is an upper limit good? You experience emotional suffering when you read stuff like that? Is that to be equated with something being inherently negative? Is there even such a thing in existence?

We have to allow everything online, except things that directly violates the law. Ironically, a death threat is a great example.

"Fuck you asshole cunt bitch DIEEEEEE" <- Online anonymity producing a douche faced idiot. Not a hate crime though, it's just online personas battling it out. When someone writes this to you in a discussion, you win."

"Fuck you x, I know you live on Randomstreet 23, Randomville, Random States of Derpmerica, I will go there soon and murder you" <- Death threat and a very bannable offence.

Otherwise we will start bowing down to claims from all kinds of people. All kinds of minorities and groups that claim to be "offended". What a stupid word. First we ban death threats. After that we ban talk about paedophilia. Then we ban ethical discussions surrounding treatment of dogs. Then we ban human interaction. Then we... I think you get the idea. It's a can of worms we don't want to open at any cost. It's similar to why we can't use capitol punishment even for a guy like Hitler. (I can think of far worse people but Hitler always gets to be the master of evil fucks).

Someone acting like a sociopath online? Shrug your shoulders. Be indifferent. Just don't shrug them so that the persons voice is silenced. Then we are on our way to government sponsored regulation of human thought and expression and that is a true evil.

I didn't address all the concerns that you voiced, please tell me if you want me to elaborate further. I just woke up so I'm a lil groggy ^^

You must be kidding me. You're saying that we should condone people falsely accusing other people of child molestation because someone can be offended if we don't allow it?

To accuse someone of child molestation is slander, which is highly illegal. The difference between saying "I think you're a cunt" and "he's a childmolester" is the difference with regarding to something as an opinion, and regarding to something as a fact.

The "I wish he would die" is just a matter of opinion. People are allowed to have different opinions. Some things are just better kept to themselves, don't you agree? Of course, Trash will always be trash, there's not much anyone can do about that, but thinking that it's nothing wrong with stuff like that seems just a little sociopathic.

You missed my point by a fair margin I'm afraid. Never said condone anything. I am all for working against a troll free internet experience but I doubt it's possible so get down with how reality is online or leave.

"he's a child molester" <- That's trolling, nothing more.

Two people, whom have never met eachother before, sit's down on a park bench and starts discussing social issues. They both wear blind folds so they have in effect, complete anonymity. The debate get's very personal as person x is a law enforcer and person y a critic because his brother got killed by a police officer in a heated situation. They call eachother all sorts of names like fag, idiot, whore, douche bag, inbred and child molester.

How is this to be equated with person Z on a party. Z says to one of his friends "Y is a rapist and a paedophile". This is illegal and worthy of despise. Real names, real people.

Please friend, don't fall in the ad hominem trap. I'm not saying not to care but jez, chose your battles. Attitudes need to be changed on a broad scale. We don't need any more regulation in society.

I never used an argument worthy of the "Ad hominem"status. I haven't abused anyone. If "regular" people are allowed to Say anything about anyone, simply because it's "online banter" then I will call them trash. Simply because I am of the opinion that they are, and since you just said that it's an accepted form of abuse, that's what I'll stick with.

I'm not on any personal crusade or anything, I just think it's way over the top. You might disagree, that's none of my concern. I just think that for attitudes to be changed "on a grander scale", as you so nicely put it, someone definitely needs to speak up about it.

I have no problem whatsoever with calling trash, trash, as long as you aren't crusading against a user in particular. You insinuated that my stance were borderline sociopathic. I don't approve of this. I'm not sociopathic by any stretch, have I really given you reason to believe that?

Alrighty. Well, there is a difference between what I condone and what I consider optimal. This is the internet and I play by it's rules. If I like them or not is a bit beside the point. Otherwise I would be a hypocrite of the hightest order.

The Bible itself is not shit, it's just papers filled with man made scribblings, also known as words and sentences. The message of the Bible, however, is perhaps the most vile piece of litterature ever written.

It's a pretty nonsensical book full of plot holes, working off of the assumption that the reader buys into a set of badly dated dogmas and arbitrary rules. Oh and it also blatantly plagiarizes older religious texts.

At least the old testament has some nice, gory action going on. The jews knew what's up.

Let's refrain form posting Bible quotes, shall we? :) The book is fucking everywhere. Pick it up, read a random page and the truth shall be revealed! The truth in this case not being the divinity of the supposed Jesus of Nazareth, but the absurd nature of this dated collection of desert fairytales. It sickens me that so many people still buy into this. But we have all been fooled into believing that "personal belief is not dangerous", "leave them nice christians alone" etc, WRONG. Call priests, popes, bishops, pastors and all clerical institution spouting these obscene lies on what the texts really say. Show the world that it is time to leave the bible behind. God is dead. Move on.

Don't you get it? Winning means nothing if people don't respect you for it. Since the vast majority clearly couldn't care less about your "achievements", it begs the question, why? What do you want to prove? Are we going to read a post 6 months from now on your supreme excellency for fooling the community twice?

No, uninstall Quake and stick to single player games until you have gained some basic fucking knowledge on how to behave towards other people.

I seriously doubt thats what he's actually looking for. Man has a point nonetheless. Whats winning to you if you cheated your way to the victory?
Luck and skill is pretty much the only thing legits count on.
Hopefully you see why having luck, skills AND cheats while doing it, makes it quite the sloppy win.

No point in trying to act arrogant about it though as I'm sure you agree with the above.

Quite frankly I find that incorrect on a personal level. I don't NEED the respect, no, but, I WANT the respect much like I WANT to be respected if I win a game of pool fair and square with several onlookers. You don't expect to be booed for your fair effort (although it does, of course, occasionally happen, I must admit)

It's not an exact science arguing whether this is true or not for the most part, as I'm pretty sure no one wants the opposite of the above. And really, don't even begin to try and argue with because frankly thats just pointless :)

Correct, which is exactly why it is inevitable that you will recieve acknowledgement in some form :) Usually, even criticism and rage because of your strategies and style of play gives you an idea of how well you're progressing, too.

As early as last night I was being flamed for ruining quake because I was using +walk and using rail at a distance - IN A DUEL. He, my opponent, on the other hand, was helping the game rise because he refused to rail unless at point blank, and never used +walk, and never stood and camped out an item to catch me off my guard.
A real one hit wonder if you ask me :>

You beat me on aerowalk? your delusional, such a thing has never taken place :b. I can recall your fits of rage still for being locked out of the map. I will dobble check with hazrd to verify he knows he always knows.

I dont know why people +% you, since u are making everything up and if you want i could go back on my old computer and get the demo.

Edit: I won you 15-10 on aerowalk. Liar. And i know u also cheated once. At the DH interview when Disrepute he asked you if you had ever cheated. I could see that you lied bigtime. And that explains why u were also shit at DH. The fact that u make things like this up just makes me wanna get people to know the mythomaniac you are. And also if you actually beat me on aerowalk when i was alot better than i was now, then you could probably beat me several times now again, but you know you cant, cause you lied. So you wont do it.
In TDM ur ok, in duel u are shit.

You could see he lied, sure. I see that all the time also in people. But you can't use that in an argument. It's called argumentum ad hominem and is a logical fallacy. Basically means you attack the person making a claim rather than the claim itself. It's very dishonest yet very, very common :(

Here is one of the reasons e-sport may never grow to it's full potential or be taken as seriously as it deserves. Because asshats like Juven1le get to be the goddamn spokes people for the rest of us. Do not want.

Ah, sorry about that :) I'm still newbish working with this site :O I am not zhu, my name is Bergstrand, not Åberg. I'm 26 years old from Eksjö (Ek=Oak sjö=Lake), not far from Jönköping, home of Dreamhack. I have never ever cheated in Quake or any other game online.

Also, was Kazan actually banned for cheating? LOL
When I did use it, although it was probably just suspicion, there were a shit load of people who looked like they were cheating when I watched them and they still get away with it, kind of annoying :(

I never had a problem with anyone except kazan who was obvious when watching him, just happened that I was watching some own3d vids and found ark1 too, but really its not too easy to prove, and people just cant be bothered anymore, theres no anticheat.
So what can you expect

And well... the "annoyed" part is why I started cheating in the first place, there are alot of players still cheating and getting away with it.

Of course there's other people cheating. You don't expect you guys to be the only one that's been cheating in Quake?

I don't know who this Kazan is, I don't have any interest in him or his past actions either. The other guy, the one you mentioned as his friend, is appearing to be cheating but you can't find any solid proof of it, if I'm correct? Then you should probably not go around accusing someone without proper evidence.

I know that you got busted for cheating. I have nothing against you as a person because you used illegal methods in a computer-games. However, you can't expect people to be understanding or to be non-vindictive.

Truth be told, if you have people you thought used illegal methods when you played against them, you should probably keep it to yourself to avoid people being falsely accused, even though you may be right. If you KNOW someone is cheating though, best is that you make it clear so people actually CAN avoid them. That is, if you have the proof to support it with.

Guess so, but I kinda did specify that its not easy to get proof, at first I asked if he got caught because I saw that vid saying it was him, then I just found ark1 who was on his team which looked a bit weird too. Was just curious as to whether they were or not, and Kazan was always so hack like it would please me to see him banned

Does strenx strike you as the kind of person that would walk over dead bodies to reach his goals? Sadly, that kind of person often do. I'm thinking of course about CEOs of large, dirty companies and other types of corporate crooks.

I'd rather refer to them as dangerous. What is stopping him from cheating in Zotac six months from now if he is forvigen for his past indiscretions? Nothing. People won't care enough then about him streaming or not. Then we will have a ton of other cases of cheating high tier players to focus on. And the wheels keep on turning...

Well, I think he's the same person as well. However, I also think he has a different mindset now.

Despite that, flaming and trolling people 24/7 on the forums and in-game are not a good way to get the trust of the community back, that which he so bad desired in the last thread.

As I specified in the other thread, I'm all about second chances, though he hasn't really got one yet but circumvented his ban, but then you keep your nose clean and do not start shit up all the time.

Now Zhu's probably gonna rage at me for this, but I prefer honesty over pretending to think different: If you can't deal with people hating on you because you fucked up, then it was a bad idea to try and come back in the first place.

Although you're not the best example either, since you bring even more gasoline to the fire.

We got it, you don't like him, not many people do, but let's keep it civilized. You were my age if I understood you correctly from the other thread, so surely you must have the means to bring it up a level and discuss things calmly.

If you need to vent on him, do it in private. Harrass him publicly does not further your cause, and it won't discredit him either.