This week we will be discussing 1 Timothy Chapter 4. After you read the chapter, please take time to post….

1. Your favorite passages from Chapter 42. Things that challenged you3. Any special insights that you would like to share with us4. Any questions that you may have5. Any related thoughts at all(This is just a guideline and doesn't have to be followed exactly)

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Some very big verses in this chapter.... I've got time for a comment on one of those verses....

2These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.

The part that sticks out to me here; the phrase "their consciences are dead (or seared)." There have been times in my life where a particular sin would lead to so much shame and disgust in myself. And then after repeated failure, I started to feel less and less guilty or convicted about it. What a dangerous place to be in. We need our conscience.... which I believe is actually the Holy Spirit most of the time. We need that voice speaking to us to help us resist temptation. And we also need that voice after we sin, so we can remember the next time we are tempted the consequences of our actions and hopefully have the wisdom to not make the same mistake.

rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

I like this passage! I am a runner, so the reference to physical training resonates with me. I have entered races that I have spent months training for. I've followed a detailed plan and done my best to prepare myself. I stop at the track and get my speedwork in, even when I'm worn out from being at work all day. I look at the bad weather and spend a few hours running through it anyways. Usually, it pays off. I finish the race feeling satisfied with my time and maybe even set a new personal record. There have been other races that, for various reasons, I have not put as much effort into. The track will be there next time, I can cut the long run short and not miss the football game. Care to guess how those races usually go? It's pretty easy to see how my spiritual life parallels this. Sometimes I get into a good discussion, hear a good sermon, or find a good study. Throughout the day, I find myself reflecting on it, or trying to dig a little deeper. Guess what? The effort usually pays off! Other times, it gets easy to go through the motions. I read a couple chapters in my Bible this morning, but didn't really take any time to think about what I read. I heard the pastor's sermon, but don't remember much of it, cause I was busy thinking about what I wanted for lunch. Yep, you guessed it, not much growth happening at those times!

Kevin Young wrote:Some very big verses in this chapter.... I've got time for a comment on one of those verses....

2These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.

The part that sticks out to me here; the phrase "their consciences are dead (or seared)." There have been times in my life where a particular sin would lead to so much shame and disgust in myself. And then after repeated failure, I started to feel less and less guilty or convicted about it. What a dangerous place to be in. We need our conscience.... which I believe is actually the Holy Spirit most of the time. We need that voice speaking to us to help us resist temptation. And we also need that voice after we sin, so we can remember the next time we are tempted the consequences of our actions and hopefully have the wisdom to not make the same mistake.

when you get desensitized to something like violence...you feel less shocked and disgusted over time as you are exposed to it...just look at the increasing violence and bad language on TV....look at how people are getting use to more and more without even flinching....

that's how addiction works too...you need more and more because you get use to the first amounts of the drug....or like a pornography addiction you start needing weirder stuff to get to the same place because the usual stuff doesn't do it anymore...you just keep chasing that little high while part of your soul dies under that searing iron....

when you get desensitized to sins you don't get shocked or disgusted by them anymore...you don't feel bad anymore...so you just get worse and worse because all you've got is dead scar tissue where you conscious is...

So yeah, you can't push your conscience away and let it die. You have to keep listening.....

J Vernon McGee said the church should have a "tender conscience and not stoop to such low levels"....like not letting your conscience be hardened and allowing things that should be not allowed I suppose....he was talking about how there is too much talk about sex in the church today, but that's not my church for sure lol

1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

J Vernon McGee:

"When Paul says "in the latter times," he does not have the second coming of Christ in view at all. However, in 2 Tim 3:1 where he says, "this know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come", he is using a technical expression that always refers to the last days of the church on earth before the Lord Jesus takes it out. The "latter times" mentioned here refers to our times today---Paul was speaking of what lay just ahead for the church in his day."

Reformation Study Bible:

"in later times." This is not a period just prior to the Second Coming of Christ. Rather, in keeping with the overall New Testament perspective, it is the era inaugurated by Christ’s First Advent and completed at His second (Acts 2:17; Heb. 1:2; 1 Pet. 1:20; 1 John 2:18; cf. 2 Tim. 3:1).

8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

Well it does sound like Paul is saying we don't have to exercise at first in a way doesn't it? Lol, oh good I can stop then . I guess its more like it shouldn't be your first focus and priority because that is all temporary and earthly rewards while godliness reaps eternal rewards. There's other stuff we could all place in that spot of something we struggle to keep our of the priority spot where God should be even if its not exercise.

Funny to run into this verse since for a while on Sunday mornings I was purposely working out when I was suppose to be at church so I could avoid it lol. Of course for me it should say "for Pokemon Go is of some value, but godliness has value for all things"

Many years have passed since people encouraged me with, "Let no one despise you for your youth." Back then, I could very effectively argue for some strong presumptions from this chapter. While several sermons can be developed from this text, there are actually several tensions produced that create questions. Now in my gray head years, I am not so sure these tensions can be solved with some of the more common doctrinal philosophies. So I apologize for any seeming affronts that my comment may levy against the spectrums of soteriology that range between Calvinism and Armenianism. Verse 10 states, "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe." This verse definitely says that God is everyone's Savior. Oops, that blasts against Calvinist thought! How dare the Bible speak against Calvinism! Or does it? Divine election is also presented in the Scripture. So is this a contradiction that cannot be solved? See the tension? There are many ways to interpret this. Listening to the brother or sister, who has alphabet soup behind their name, may help a bit. Yet the tension seems to remain. Taking this at face value is deadly. Failing to look at this carefully, then balancing it with the whole of Scripture, could lead a person to become a universalist. Why does the text say that God is "especially" the Savior of those who believe. Are all people saved while some people are more saved than other people? A philosophy like that trashes the truth of the separation of the sheep and the goats. So it seems to be a matter of the availability of salvation to all people. My thinking on this is that God is, and always has been, the Savior available to all. To us who believe, God is the Savior realized. This is simplistic but seems to be the most plausible explanation. It does not totally disprove Calvinism but it does eradicate the idea of limited atonement. Thanks for letting me present this here. The Calvinist church I attend does not allow such expressions of thought to go unchallenged.

Last edited by Columbia on Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

I have yet to read my stuff from McGee on this chapter since I have a job and stuff again.

Not directly quoting, but the stuff I've read along with this chapter all talk about this part having to do with false teachings...like not eating certain foods...Reformation Study Bible mentioned the Gnostics specifically.

This also means pizza is created by God....and I should not reject it and receive it with Thanksgiving. This makes perfect sense to me

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

I have yet to read my stuff from McGee on this chapter since I have a job and stuff again.

Not directly quoting, but the stuff I've read along with this chapter all talk about this part having to do with false teachings...like not eating certain foods...Reformation Study Bible mentioned the Gnostics specifically.

This also means pizza is created by God....and I should not reject it and receive it with Thanksgiving. This makes perfect sense to me

Amen to the pizza reference. Glad you are working. My wife has worked for about one month and loves her job at a children's home. Now if someone tells me not to eat pizza I will take them to this Scripture.

8 “Physical training is good, but training for godliness is much better, promising benefits in this life and in the life to come.” 9 This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it.

10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.

That "this is why we work hard and continue to struggle" part has stuck out to me the past few days. Because my hope in God is why I keep on going even though I keep on struggling.

actually....my hope in God is the ONLY reason I keep going despite the fact I keep struggling!!

You know what sucks about anxiety? IT NEVER ENDS!!! IT NEVER FLIPPING ENDS!! There's no "once this is over I'll have peace" because you don't need an actual situation to panic all the time and be paranoid. Your brain will just find something else or it will just sit there and panic over NOTHING!!

You know I can just deal with a depression period and let it pass on even if I end up curled up isolated on my recliner for a while because of it. But just dealing with anxiety and letting it pass...oh my gosh that is way different. Because your brain is screaming "SOMETHING IS WRONG YOU'RE GOING TO DIE!!" and you're trying to just sit there and let it pass and not believe it...even though part of you does believe it. And sometimes it takes EVERYTHING IN ME to not dig my nails into my arm to try to distract myself for even a moment from that panic in my brain over nothing.

But all my work for God is based on this mess isn't it? So I guess I'll just keep on going and rambling on about this stuff and reaching out to others struggling because of the huge amounts of empathy attained through this....continue to work though I continue to struggle. I work more when I struggle anyway because I'm like "IF SOMEBODY ELSE FEELS THIS WAY RIGHT NOW I DON'T WANT THEM TO FEEL THIS WAY ANYMORE!!"

So I guess all that training for godliness can be worth it....I can probably deal with way more than what I use to....and when you see God make perfection out of your messes down the road it makes all the work and struggles worth it as you keep your eye on the path...even though the end can seem incredibly far away when you're wading through dark pools of despair and panic....the end is still in sight....AND THAT DARKNESS AND PANIC CAN'T REACH YOU IN HEAVEN!!

I'm a horrible person.... Ugh..... I've found that high school and life and studying for driving tests and writing multiple books at once can keep you quite busy... I want to be here more than anything, and I've gotten a little break so I'm here today. First off, Happy Late Thanksgiving to you all, I love ya and you're amazing and I'm thankful for each and every one of you here!!!

Now....

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Whoa starting off heavy, aren't we? It's scary to open up the Bible and see passages like this and realize that it's already going on. Maybe not to the extreme that it will, but it's definitely happening. Acts 20:29 says that savage wolves will come among the flock- among OUR flock. It's ours because the spirit has made us overseers. When I first read this I think of this crazy wolf ripping all the sheep to shreds (Sorry Court that's a bad visual for you, huh?), but when I start to look around at the world it's more subtle than that. We're dealing with wolves in sheeps clothing, my friends.

2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

...And this just proves what I was saying for verse 1!! Hypocrites are the ones we REALLY have to watch out for. But here's the thing...how can you be a hypocrite if you aren't preaching something good sounding in the first place? A hypocrite is someone who says one things but does another and these passages are clearly talking about moral issues. So the wolves are people who are "preaching the gospel" but are changing things to match what they believe, or changing things to sound a little bit better so they get to keep their fanbase who are lining up to buy any book they pump out even though its stuffed with ear-pacifying lies.

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

I really like that, being one of the youngest on here. Ya'll have never ever treated me like the kid here, and I appreciate that so much. I've heard the term "I'm older than you so I'm right. You're a kid and you don't get it yet" before many times. I try to do all I can. I personally think God had given me the gift in writing, and neglecting your gift (to me) isn't so much rejecting as it is not using it the way you should. There are some wonderful musicians out there- cleary have a gift from God and they use it the wrong way. I'm guilty of this, I've bee writing one of my books and stopped and asked myself "Whoa, where's God in here, Maddie?" and I'll fix it and rewrite.

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

It's really hard sometimes. When things aren't going to hot I tend to run from God when I should be running TO him. But I've learned some really valuable lessons in the past few months. I try to read my Bible every single morning. Sometimes I don't really feel like it and I'll try to conger up excuses on why I can't. Of course I can't- it's what God wants me to do. I've learned that that is the enemy. And if I push past that bad spot, sitting there and reading His word feels even GREATER knowing that I overcame and am doing what I should. I try to be diligent, but without God, none of us can.

- Maddie

"Opposite as the day and night As different as the sun and moon is This is the reality of my dualityThis WE needs to become a ME!" - Jonathan Thulin, Jekyll & Hyde

Kevin Young wrote:Some very big verses in this chapter.... I've got time for a comment on one of those verses....

2These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.

The part that sticks out to me here; the phrase "their consciences are dead (or seared)." There have been times in my life where a particular sin would lead to so much shame and disgust in myself. And then after repeated failure, I started to feel less and less guilty or convicted about it. What a dangerous place to be in. We need our conscience.... which I believe is actually the Holy Spirit most of the time. We need that voice speaking to us to help us resist temptation. And we also need that voice after we sin, so we can remember the next time we are tempted the consequences of our actions and hopefully have the wisdom to not make the same mistake.

Kevin, that is so true. Every time you commit a certain sin, it gets a little bit easier to do it again. I try not to even cross the threshold because it is a literal slippery slope from then on...I feel you on that, excellent point!!!

- Maddie

"Opposite as the day and night As different as the sun and moon is This is the reality of my dualityThis WE needs to become a ME!" - Jonathan Thulin, Jekyll & Hyde

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

My immediate thought upon reading this touches on one of those controversial subjects that people on facebook love arguing about, but please bear with me... The "They forbid people to marry" part in verse 3 made my brain jump to the whole gay marriage controversy. Which then just made me think about the whole LGBT thing in general. Personally, I refuse to think on the political side of things and instead see people as individuals.

A few months ago, someone who means the world to me came out as gay. This person has always been incredibly open about their faith, and there was quite a bit of backlash against this person afterwards. Why is it so easy to meet the addicted and the suicidal where they are, but the moment someone comes out as gay, they're instantly attacked with, "you're going to hell" and "you know better than this"? I get that we need to hold each other accountable. But when people come out with something huge they've been suppressing, the first response shouldn't be throwing stones.

Hopefully you guys get what I'm trying to say... My brain doesn't want to articulate very well at the moment...

10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Yet another verse I need tattooed on the inside of my eyelids. I've found myself thinking about life and how meaningless it all seems a lot lately. I desperately need to work on my faith a lot more than I have been...

12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.

This is kind of weird to read at this point in my life. In middle and high school and even this summer, I've dealt with being treated like the baby. This verse has been a mantra of mine during times when I felt too young to make a difference.

But now I have an adult job where nobody really cares how young I am. My coworkers see me as an equal; they sometimes seem to care even more about what I say because of the different "female in a male-dominated industry" perspective. Even in non-work life, people are starting to accept that I'm no longer a child.

But just because people are no longer looking down on me because of my age doesn't mean I can slack off on the spiritual front. Even though I feel like I've been doing that a bit lately...

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

I just gotta get all of this tattooed on my eyelids...

-Sam

"Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" -James 4:7

10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Yet another verse I need tattooed on the inside of my eyelids. I've found myself thinking about life and how meaningless it all seems a lot lately. I desperately need to work on my faith a lot more than I have been...

I have yet to find a situation where I don't struggle with life being meaningless. Working full time day after day I will find myself thinking "Is this it?". When I wasn't working and had all the time in the world I was still "Is this all there is?". When I am having the time of the my life after a concert or trip and remembering the good times afterwards I will still say "is this it?".

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Whoa starting off heavy, aren't we? It's scary to open up the Bible and see passages like this and realize that it's already going on. Maybe not to the extreme that it will, but it's definitely happening. Acts 20:29 says that savage wolves will come among the flock- among OUR flock. It's ours because the spirit has made us overseers. When I first read this I think of this crazy wolf ripping all the sheep to shreds (Sorry Court that's a bad visual for you, huh?), but when I start to look around at the world it's more subtle than that. We're dealing with wolves in sheeps clothing, my friends.

yes sometimes I get sheepies, but then they slaughter them...like on the new Disciple album I get sheepies and then they get slaughtered lol

My favorite verses from this chapter are 2 Timothy 1:9-10.It is hard to wrap my head around the fact that grace is given freely, but I have felt the power of grace in my own life and intend to show others the grace of God. Sometimes witnessing comes from others observing how you live your life.