I wasn't able to get into contact with you so I created this thread to say thanks.
I did what you suggested and all is working well. I've found a Sensei that I really work well with and get lots of feedback from. The dojo itself is small but jam-packed full of experience and wisdom. Almost always I'm training with higher ranked students with a diverse training background, the training is fun/serious/intense and focuses on the details of the techniques along with variations. Overall, I feel like a true beginner again, learning something new and exciting everyday. I still practice at my original dojo, i have great friends there and I can't leave them behind.

I'm trying to keep my mind completely open and not be judgmental of this style of Aikido or that style yadda yadda and see where I get to from here. See what I learn and experience.

I hope that one day I get to visit your dojo and train with you. For now though, I'm happy to share ideas, thoughts and questions with you and just discuss Aikido.

Cheers.

Hellis

03-22-2011 06:03 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Hi Daniel

I believe that Tony has been banned again, I did warn him that having a sense of humour was unacceptable. He added a funny video from British TV that was considered funny in the UK and un-funny by our colonial friends, apparently.
I am sure that he will be pleased by you message of thanks.
Thanks for letting us know how you got on.

"Aikibunnies" have no sense of humour. I thought that training in a martial art would allow one to defend/protect oneself not only from physical harm but mental/psychological as well. Especially for Aikido - turning it into a good thing and laughing about it. Clearly they haven't been training hard enough :P tehehehe.

Yes, I did receive a message from Tony. Even though he gets banned, I think fairly regularly now, it doesn't stop him from being him. Which is good, otherwise everything on here would be one sided. They shouldn't ban him though because in my opinion they're limiting themselves in a way, of knowledge, real world experience and such brutal honesty.

How are you going with your dojo and your own training? I'd love to hear about the differences/similarities in your training and techniques.

Hope you are in good health.

Cheers.
Daniel

Flintstone

03-22-2011 07:47 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

Daniel Lloyd wrote:
(Post 279653)

They shouldn't ban him though because in my opinion they're limiting themselves in a way, of knowledge, real world experience and such brutal honesty.

Sorry, Daniel. Banning is the norm here, as you should know by now ;) .

Daniel Lloyd

03-22-2011 07:50 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
(Post 279655)

Sorry, Daniel. Banning is the norm here, as you should know by now ;) .

Hahaha. Well if people want to limit their growth and resources, that's their choice. But they shouldn't limit it for other people - that's just selfish.

What style of Aikido do you practice Alejandro Villanueva? What's training like? :)

Marc Abrams

03-22-2011 08:29 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

Daniel Lloyd wrote:
(Post 279653)

Thanks Henry Ellis,

"Aikibunnies" have no sense of humour. I thought that training in a martial art would allow one to defend/protect oneself not only from physical harm but mental/psychological as well. Especially for Aikido - turning it into a good thing and laughing about it. Clearly they haven't been training hard enough :P tehehehe.

Yes, I did receive a message from Tony. Even though he gets banned, I think fairly regularly now, it doesn't stop him from being him. Which is good, otherwise everything on here would be one sided. They shouldn't ban him though because in my opinion they're limiting themselves in a way, of knowledge, real world experience and such brutal honesty.

How are you going with your dojo and your own training? I'd love to hear about the differences/similarities in your training and techniques.

Hope you are in good health.

Cheers.
Daniel

Daniel:

The sole decision to ban someone rests with Jun. Are you actually calling Jun an Aikibunny?

This website and forum was created by and is maintained by Jun. Jun has spelled out what he considers to be fair guidelines with which we may participate on this forum. Our participation on this forum and website has explicit and implicit obligations as to rules that we must follow. This is no different than how any other "institution" works.

I think that there does need to be a dialogue amongst the members with Jun as to how to address certain inflammatory issues that ended up getting people put in the "time-out room." I think that you trying to single out "Aikibunnies" with no humor as the reason for people being banned is significantly distorted reasoning at best. The issue that Jun frequently uses as a reason for issuing a "time-out" is the disrespectful manner in which people treat others. Couching one's contempt, dislike,.... in humor is little more than a passive-aggressive act. We all are guilty of this to some degree or another (kind of like your Aikibunny comment).

Encouraging a dialogue with Jun and the other members of the forum on how to tackle areas of dispute and disagreement is a more constructive direction that you might want to consider.

Just my 2 cents.

marc abrams

Keith Larman

03-22-2011 08:38 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
(Post 279655)

Sorry, Daniel. Banning is the norm here, as you should know by now ;) .

Odd, I've been here for years, posting quite a bit, and I've never been banned. I'd dare say the overwhelming majority of people who post regularly have never been banned.

sakumeikan

03-22-2011 08:48 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

Henry Ellis wrote:
(Post 279649)

Hi Daniel

I believe that Tony has been banned again, I did warn him that having a sense of humour was unacceptable. He added a funny video from British TV that was considered funny in the UK and un-funny by our colonial friends, apparently.
I am sure that he will be pleased by you message of thanks.
Thanks for letting us know how you got on.

Henry,
Whats the problem ?Tony is a character, keeps the forum from becoming boring.Whatever happened to the principle of freedom of speech?No matter what you write somebody , somewhere will take offense. You cannot please everybody all the time. Tony come back soon , all is [hopefully ] forgiven. Cheers, Joe.

lbb

03-22-2011 08:54 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Wow. This thread, just...wow.

During his time back from timeout, Tony Wagstaffe indulged incessantly in a tactic that I'll call "side-biting", for lack of a better term: ostensibly speaking to one individual, but about others. It's a not very subtle attempt to disparage and insult others while waving a "get out of jail free" card: "I wasn't talking to you, was I? Oh, you thought I was talking about you? Well, I wasn't, but if you think I was, then maybe the shoe fits!" A number of others on this forum eagerly joined in Tony's play -- it wasn't very subtle, and we all know who you are. It's a sandbox level of manipulative social behavior, very successful among the younger set who aren't yet wise to these tricks, and less successful when used on grownups. I don't think Jun intends this forum to be a sandbox where the cleverest kindergarten bully will prevail. If that's bothersome to you, then perhaps it's time to do some growing up.

Nicholas Eschenbruch

03-22-2011 09:10 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote:
(Post 279664)

Wow. This thread, just...wow.

During his time back from timeout, Tony Wagstaffe indulged incessantly in a tactic that I'll call "side-biting", for lack of a better term: ostensibly speaking to one individual, but about others. It's a not very subtle attempt to disparage and insult others while waving a "get out of jail free" card: "I wasn't talking to you, was I? Oh, you thought I was talking about you? Well, I wasn't, but if you think I was, then maybe the shoe fits!" A number of others on this forum eagerly joined in Tony's play -- it wasn't very subtle, and we all know who you are. It's a sandbox level of manipulative social behavior, very successful among the younger set who aren't yet wise to these tricks, and less successful when used on grownups. I don't think Jun intends this forum to be a sandbox where the cleverest kindergarten bully will prevail. If that's bothersome to you, then perhaps it's time to do some growing up.

Agree.

( - and cancelled long rant - )

Janet Rosen

03-22-2011 09:15 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

I've never been banned.

I speak my mind here, crack jokes, even go a bit off topic with pun wars at times.... but I always try to remain respectful in my tone and critique ideas rather than criticise individuals; to me THAT is the training, just as there are norms in the dojo to strive to maintain.

Gorgeous George

03-22-2011 10:10 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Well said, Mary.

I don't think he was banned because he had a sense of humour; rather, because he was what is known as a troll:

He just harped on about the same things, to the same people, in the same way - endlessly; at first, it might be novel, but it quickly becomes incredibly boring and tiresome. And it goes absolutely nowhere.

And his criticisms of others' aikido/videos of their aikido were bewildering, and incredibly uncouth, in many cases; has anyone seen the video of his akido?
If I saw someone (a fourth dan) doing that (catching a shomen strike from a jo in the palm of his hand), there's no way i'd want to train under him.
I wouldn't say anything about his aikido - I believe if we're honestly trying, then we shouldn't be criticised in the slightest - but his constant 'holier-than-thou' attitude about others' surely legitimise the spotlight being turned on his aikido, and asking what right he has to judge.

kewms

03-22-2011 10:20 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

Joe Curran wrote:
(Post 279663)

Henry,
Whats the problem ?Tony is a character, keeps the forum from becoming boring.Whatever happened to the principle of freedom of speech?No matter what you write somebody , somewhere will take offense. You cannot please everybody all the time. Tony come back soon , all is [hopefully ] forgiven. Cheers, Joe.

Unmoderated internet forums tend to become unreadable very quickly. Please name another social environment in which you can say anything you like, in whatever manner you like, without fear of social repercussions.

FWIW, I've been participating in Internet fora since before most people knew the Internet existed and I've never been banned anywhere.

Katherine

mathewjgano

03-22-2011 11:01 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Hear hear Marc!
I've never been banned and I'm drawn to these personality conflicts like a Tough Guy to bravado. I don't get the sense Tony is malicious and chalk it up to (mostly) different strokes for different folks, but maybe I've been desensitized to his kind of humor. Whatever the case, this is Jun's web site and he's asked that people try to keep away from behavior that appears mean-spirited (or what have you). Where they seem unable to do that (after reminders) he should give them a time-out. Perhaps it's not a perfect system, but show me one that is.
I agree with the idea that it's good to keep a variety of view points present, but it's not that hard to express an idea without using humor you already know to be perceived negatively. His tone is disrespectful by a lot of people's standards. He probably doesn't care much, but that doesn't exactly inspire another to care much in his regard either so no wonder he gets the static he does.
I do find it ironic he inspired someone to be less judgemental about this style of Aikido or that, but that's the beauty of open dialogue.
FWLIW,
Matt
p.s. love the pic!:D
p.p.s. nicely put Katherine

Alex Megann

03-22-2011 11:01 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote:
(Post 279674)

Well said, Mary.

I don't think he was banned because he had a sense of humour; rather, because he was what is known as a troll:

He just harped on about the same things, to the same people, in the same way - endlessly; at first, it might be novel, but it quickly becomes incredibly boring and tiresome. And it goes absolutely nowhere.

And his criticisms of others' aikido/videos of their aikido were bewildering, and incredibly uncouth, in many cases; has anyone seen the video of his akido?
If I saw someone (a fourth dan) doing that (catching a shomen strike from a jo in the palm of his hand), there's no way i'd want to train under him.
I wouldn't say anything about his aikido - I believe if we're honestly trying, then we shouldn't be criticised in the slightest - but his constant 'holier-than-thou' attitude about others' surely legitimise the spotlight being turned on his aikido, and asking what right he has to judge.

Tony has a strongly-felt point of view on many things, which is fair enough. I agree with him on some of these; some on Aikiweb agree with many more, some with hardly any. The problem is that when he has hooked into a thread he expresses his opinions at every opportunity, even when they are not particularly relevant to the thread, and often in a facetious and highly disrespectful manner.

When I talk about respect, I mean respect both for other people's viewpoints and respect for the forum. The point is that you can't behave in the same way when you are on a discussion forum that includes thousands of people of all ages and from all cultures, as you can when you are talking with your mates in the pub.

I am one of the very small number on Aikiweb who has actually been on the mat with Tony, even though it was more than twenty years ago, and I certainly didn't find his manner in person objectionable. All the same, some behaviour is just unacceptable on an internet forum.

Alex

C. David Henderson

03-22-2011 11:05 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Just a guess, but I'd venture that anyone here who was susceptible into being shamed around to Tony's point of view has already queued up in that line. So maybe its time to give it a rest.

"Brutal honesty" absent self-reflection isn't.

And humor, as I understand it, is supposed to involve a shift of wit. Consequently, done well, its relatively odorless.

Keith Larman

03-22-2011 11:20 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
Sorry, Daniel. Banning is the norm here, as you should know by now .

Alejandro, just to be forthcoming with you, your post is a pretty good example of taking an off-handed swipe. At Jun in particular. I've had the honor (and fantastic frustration) of having moderated a martial arts board for a number of years (which I do no longer). It is generally a "no-win" situation for the admin. If you have issues I would suggest addressing that openly and publicly. Or else let it go.

On the board I used to moderate I would often use the metaphor of a dojo to explain the etiquette. Wipe your feet before entering. Bow at the door. Read the rules. If it's not going to be workable for you, bow at the door again and go the other way. Honestly, there are a lot of great forums on-line. And one can always start their own should they want to have a different vibe (maybe that would be a good avenue for Tony -- and I'm not being facetious).

Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote:
(Post 279668)

I've never been banned.

I speak my mind here, crack jokes, even go a bit off topic with pun wars at times.... but I always try to remain respectful in my tone and critique ideas rather than criticise individuals; to me THAT is the training, just as there are norms in the dojo to strive to maintain.

Ditto, and I've engaged in some rather heated discussions at times. But in the end the point is "discussion". And I always try to keep in mind that when I'm here I'm in Jun's "house". So I try to give my host the respect he deserves. If I'm not happy I'm free to walk out the door. But in his house I'll try to be respectful of my host's requests.

WRT to the notion of free speech. Sure. All for it. I had the great honor of being dragged away by policemen during a protest during my college days (which they were entitled to do, by the way, it was civil disobedience and I knew there would be repercussions to my behavior -= my college had heavy investments in Aparteid era South Africa). Scream what you want from the street corners and the mountain tops. Scream it as loud as you wish in your own home. But come into my living room and you'll need to be respectful of my rules in my house. You may go out to the public street and scream all you wish, but once you step on my doorstep I get to make the rules...

Seems reasonable to me...

mathewjgano

03-22-2011 11:29 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Very reasonable. Nicely put.

Gorgeous George

03-22-2011 11:35 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Yes: I think it's important to remember that this website is not something Jun has to maintain; he chose to create it, and we should be grateful of that fact, rather than act as though we have a God-given right to use/abuse it, and he should like or lump our behaviour.

George S. Ledyard

03-22-2011 12:35 PM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

I think it is interesting that so many of our friends from the UK didn't see Tony as objectionable... maybe there really was a cultural disconnect going on. Certainly, things he seemed to think were funny, I perceived simply as being disdainful and disrespectful...

A lot of folks out here in the West Coast of the US find the folks from New York City and the North East urban areas to be quite obnoxious whereas, being from the East Coast myself, I find them to be refreshingly straight forward when compared to the passive aggressive paradigm that seems to dominate around my own NW area. Maybe it's the same thing.

From my own perspective, there's a big difference between being sure of yourself and what you believe and crossing the line to being disrespectful of others. I sincerely doubt whether many folks are unclear about where I stand on any particular issue. I am happy to argue the point too, if the occasion arises. But I don't simply drift from thread to thread looking for opportunities to restate my belief that most everyone else is screwed up. Tony seemed to be doing that. He'd appear pretty much in any forum, even those he had nothing positive to contribute to, only to interject his belief that the whole discussion indicated that everyone's Aikido was substandard from a martial point of view.

It was unclear to me why he participated in the forums... he certainly wasn't interested in getting any new points of view or hearing about other folks experiences when it was outside his own experiential paradigm. This was true even when the folks posting were very experienced practitioners. He didn't seem to be just unthoughtful about Aikido, he seemed to me to be anti-thoughtful. Anyone who was actively in the process of change, of reevaluating their practice was derided and dismissed.

The forums are all about our collective Aikido "conversation". There's nothing wrong with having ones own strong opinions, I certainly do, and I am happy to argue them out. But even a good argument requires that one hears the point of view of the other. Tony seemed like the kid who covers his ears and chants "blah, blah, blah, I can't hear you..."

I am quite aware that at times I have crossed the line and gotten too forceful in an argument. In those cases in which I did so, I have always attempted to apologize for crossing that line. There are several people on the forums whom I have offended and am now good "friends" with in an internet sense.

Marc Abrams and I had a discussion last weekend about what the whole point is of all our practice. I am almost sixty now, and the time I have left is far less than the time I have in already so I am drawn to think about where I want to be at the end of the process. In a paraphrase of the old "The guy who wins is the guy who dies with the most toys", for me, the one who wins is the one who dies with the most friends".

If our Aikido isn't about bringing folks together, what is the point. Is the point to be able to defeat all enemies in a fight? Was that what this whole thing was about? Is participation on the forums about being "right"? I certainly have strong views on the state of Aikido and how we should be working to make it better. I think every one of us should be "fighting the good fight" so to speak, according to our beliefs. But in the end if the debates only serve to drive folks apart rather than to create some level of mutual understanding and respect, then it's just a waste.

I have seen very few people get banned from this forum over the years. You really have to cross the line to where your participation is actively causing folks to decide not to even read the posts. Despite the fact that there is an "ignore" button, most folks simply drift away when the level of discourse reaches a sort of continuous vituperation. When the message is simply a constant "I have no respect for you or your ideas", most folks simply stop participating and the ones who stay end up in the perpetual pissing match with the individual concerned. What is the point of being that person?

Certainly Jun, who created this forum and whose job it is to maximize participation has every right to step in and remove people whose participation is driving away other readers and posters. Stan Pranin at Aikido Journal was reluctant (understandably) to be the policeman on the forums there with the result that a very small number of individuals drove away all the really serious posters with the eventual result that the non-posting readers moved away due to lack of content. It killed the AJ forums.

This art is supposed to be Budo. Respect and etiquette are both central principles which operate in traditional notions of Budo. Jun continuously finds himself needing to intervene as policeman on the forums because some folks can't seem to figure out how to converse, even disagree, while still being respectful or at the very least, civil. This is not surprising since any number of people have commented on the lack of civility in our public discourse. But we are Aikido practitioners and ostensibly are striving for something better. I am always amazed how many folks who wish to be "tough guys" and who make such a big deal about the martial side of the practice, seem almost completely unaware of the need for civil behavior in a warrior society.

Anyway, it's too bad Tony is gone again... I really wanted him to see the bunny picture.

crbateman

03-22-2011 01:18 PM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

I have to agree with George on this one. There are enough divisive and polarizing things in this world... an Aikido forum does not need to go there.

I have no rant here, but the fact is that this forum is not a democracy. It belongs to Jun. It's his responsibility to set the rules, and decide who may have broken them. Frankly, I think he's done a helluva job. I think he lets everybody have a say, while trying to pin down that fine line where dialogue becomes counterproductive and people become mean and disrespectful to each other.

One can air his grievances and tout his politics and motivations without resorting to personal attacks, veiled or otherwise. Those who are given to excursions "to the edge" of that line surely must know that there is a risk.

That said, I enjoy listening to those with unconventional takes, as I often can learn much from them, even if I may not necessarily agree.. And I can simply chose to ignore those things which do not benefit me.

Relax. Breathe. Think. Think some more.

Graham Farquhar

03-22-2011 01:37 PM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote:
(Post 279688)

I think it is interesting that so many of our friends from the UK didn't see Tony as objectionable... maybe there really was a cultural disconnect going on. Certainly, things he seemed to think were funny, I perceived simply as being disdainful and disrespectful...

Hi George

Sorry not all of us are in that boat, I found some of the comments made equally objectionable. Ok I travel a lot and have a job that takes me to a lot of places around the world and perhaps that gives me a different perspective but I think not! I think those in the UK who don't agree with some of the comments made simply ignore them and do what I have done and left the thread as it took a direction which wasn't aiki and therefore of no interest.

On everything else George I am in 100% agreement and if My job evertakes me to the Seattle area I would love to drop in and take away some more of that vast knowledge you willingly share! Thats of course if you will let me! ;)

Daniel Lloyd

03-22-2011 10:43 PM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Thank you all for your input! :) It's wonderful to hear so many diverse points of view. I should have put in my previous comment that this shouldn't have been taken to heart. I'm not looking for trouble, I was merely curious. As I have been told - I have to be careful with what and how I say things.

I'd love to hear all about everyone else's styles of Aikido, practice methods and the such. I'm not much of a spiritual person, but that's just me, because I'm mainly interested in the technicalities of Aikido. But I'll leave that for another thread. Thank you once again.

Alex Megann

03-23-2011 03:27 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote:
(Post 279688)

I think it is interesting that so many of our friends from the UK didn't see Tony as objectionable... maybe there really was a cultural disconnect going on. Certainly, things he seemed to think were funny, I perceived simply as being disdainful and disrespectful...

...Anyway, it's too bad Tony is gone again... I really wanted him to see the bunny picture.

My guess is that being banned doesn't stop anyone reading the forums (and I thought the bunny picture was hilarious, unlike much of Tony's humour).

I agree with much of George's post, particularly with what he says about "civility" on internet forums - that is pretty much what I was trying to say in my post. Quite apart from the fact that this is an aikido forum, I suspect that some people are misled by the chatty and informal nature of much of what is often posted here into believing that they are indeed in a cosy pub with a drink and some old friends. The internet is a funny old place - the fact that is so trivially easy to contribute. one way or another, makes it easy to forget that what one writes can be read by thousands (if not millions) and then stays there almost permanently.

The same goes for "humour" - many of the participants in AikiWeb don't have English as a first (or even second) language, and what might be intended to be a cheeky offhand remark is easily misinterpreted.

I would like to echo what others have said already in this post about Jun and AikiWeb: he does an amazing job that is far too often underappreciated.

Alex

Demetrio Cereijo

03-23-2011 03:57 AM

Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Tony lacks strategic sense so he has defeated himself. Internet is serious business.

Anyway, there are way worse posters around, but as long as they "behave" we have to tolerate them. Form is more important than content... like in aikido.