Great Lakes Fisherman

Asian Carp were randomly caught in nets in Lake Erie between 1995 and 2002. In order for them to be randomly caught when fishermen were not even looking for them, there would have had to have been at least 100s, if not 1000s, of Asian Carp in the Lake the study claims would be most conducive to their survival. In addition, they were caught in western Lake Erie, not too far from the Maumee River which is theoretically one of the rivers that would support Asian Carp reproduction.

And yet, after 17 years from when the first Carp were caught in Lake Erie we find that they did not reproduce in Lake Erie or the Maumee River and eventually died off. However, the Canadian study claims that by now all five Great Lakes should be infested with Asian Carp. So, the “science” behind the “study” could not even predict what we know has already happened!

Obviously the Canadian study is flawed and Asian Carp are not, in reality, a threat to the Great Lakes.

So why is the Canadian study so irrelevant?

Because it offers nothing but a mathematical prediction based on a compilation of opinions from other papers that we now know were flawed. In fact, I remember seeing those same charts and tables in a paper released by the same authors several years ago who are now referencing their own erroneous research.

What the Canadian study does not have is any new science or research. Particularly research on live Asian Carp that would support their claims.

This study is only 12 pages long and even acknowledges that:

“Predictions and risk assessment on species that are currently not established in the Great Lakes are based on best available information. Research that is underway where results were not available, or research noted as a critical knowledge gap, may in the future, provide more information that would change the results of the risk assessment.”

The Laurentian Divide is one of our continental divides that runs from the Rocky Mountains near the Canadian Boarder east through Minnesota and up to the Labrador Sea. The divide separates the basins of waterways flowing north and south. The Laurentian Divide represents a substantial physical barrier and yet common species of fish and other aquatic plants and animals have migrated across the Divide and are found on both sides of the Divide.

Anyone who believes that severing Chicago's waterways will stop aquatic species migration has to be completely ignorant of the forces of nature and the mechanics of species migration.

Spending 10s of $billions severing Chicago's waterways and, thinking that would be a sure way to stop invasive species, would be a mistake of biblical proportions and a monument to stupidity.

"Without urgent action, it is only a matter of time until they lay waste to the Great Lakes"

More Carpola!

As a Great Lakes fisherman for over 30 years I have been following this issue in great detail and have yet to find any compelling evidence or research that would lead me to believe that Asian Carp will lay waste to the Great Lakes fishery.

For instance, Asian Carp were found in Lake Erie between 1995 and 2002 in large enough quantities to be randomly caught in nets and yet, even though they were close to the Maumee River, they never reproduced and eventually died off.

Even at "Carp Central" on the Illinois River fish surveys have shown that no fish have gone extinct. In fact, over the last few years increases in Sauger and Walleye populations have been reported in the Illinois River. It is also known that Walleye are feeding on Asian Carp minnows. There is also some evidence that Asian Carp in the Illinois River have reached their population density limit due to their high motality rate.

Reelfoot Lake in Tennessee has had a dense population of Asian Carp for many years and yet there has been absolutely no decline in any of the sport fish found in the lake.

There is also a strong consensus among marine biologists, who have actually studied the Great Lakes ecology and Asian Carp, that, in the worst case scenario, Asian Carp would only have a minimal effect on isolated areas of the Great Lakes. Marine biologists are also confident that Asian Carp will have no impact on the Salmon population.

Asian carp are actually very finicky breeders and, while the Illinois and Mississippi Rivers are well suited for their breeding requirements, the Great Lakes do not offer the conditions that are known to favor Asian Carp reproduction. Asian Carp were once introduced into the Nile River in hopes that they would establish themselves as a source of food but that never materialized and in China hydological modifications of the Yangtze River has lead to a collapse of the Asian Carp fishery.

Adult Asian Carp will likely survive in some parts of the Great Lakes but from what we know about their reproductive requirements they will never pose a threat to the Great Lakes fishery.

In 2008 the American Sport Fishing Association did an economic study on Great Lakes fishing.
And, even though there numbers were inflated, they could come up with no more than 37,000 jobs supported by sport fishing in ALL the Great Lakes states. And since then, as we all know, those numbers have fallen dramatically. And, in the last five years the commercial fishing business has virtually collapsed and now has little or no impact on employment.

The truth is Asian Carp will have no significant impact on employment.

Please Plain Dealer Editorial Staff, quit hiding behind the skirts of anonymity, identify yourselves, tell us where you get your numbers, and defend your outlandish claims. If you can't at least do that your editorials have no relevance what so ever.

"The only sure way to stop the invasion is the hydrological separation of the Great Lakes and Mississippi River basins."

Really - Based on what evidence?

The truth is no physical barrier system will ever be a sure way to stop the migration of aquatic species and certainly not Asian Carp.

In order to understand why separating the Mississippi River and Great Lakes basins with a dam or land bridge in Chicago will not stop invasive species you first have to realize that there is a difference between hydrological separation and ecological separation. The truth is that hydrological separation has never stopped migration of aquatic species between ecological systems that support their existence. To understand this all you have to do is ask yourself how all the lakes, including the Great Lakes, came to have such a diverse and yet shared population of aquatic species even though many are isolated by significant land bridges.

Just look at a few examples. Northern Snakehead are found above Virginia's Great Falls near Whites Ferry on the Potomac River. Great Falls was supposedly a natural barrier that the fish was unable to cross. In Alaska invasive Northern Pike have migrated from the east and are now found in several isolated lakes. Zebra Mussels are now found across the continental divide in California. Lake Michigan Lake Trout are now found in Yellowstone Lake. And, more to the point, Asian Carp are found in numerous lakes and waterways completely isolated by substantial land bridges, dams, and even sealed locks.

In short, separating the watersheds is neither a permanent or effective solution.

The study you referred to by the Great Lakes Commission has estimated that the infrastructure costs alone of severing Chicago’s waterways would be $4 - $9 billion and take 20 years to complete. And, while the Commission has tried to paint this as a feasible solution, when you add the economic costs to industry and the adverse environmental costs and potential for catastrophic flooding events in Chicago, that solution would cost $10s of billions and take well over 25 years to complete. Furthermore, the Commission has acknowledged that this strategy would result in polluting southern Lake Michigan with heavy metals (mercury) and a variety of other toxic chemicals with no identified way to mitigate the pollution that would ultimately end up on Michigan’s and Indiana's shores. In short, that option is neither environmentally or economically feasible.

You really have to ask yourself if it would be responsible to spend that kind of money and risk polluting southern Lake Michigan with a solution that would take 25 or more years to complete and still not solve the problem. In addition, as much as the CarpAgeddon crowd hates to admit it, there is compelling evidence that suggests Asian Carp pose only a minimal threat to the Great Lakes.

As a Great Lakes fisherman for over 30 years I have been following this issue in some detail and have yet to find any compelling evidence or research that would lead me to believe that Asian Carp will cause a collapse of the Great Lakes fishery.

For instance, Asian Carp were found in Lake Erie between 1995 and 2002 in large enough quantities to be randomly caught in nets and yet, even though they were close to the Maumee River, they never reproduced and eventually died off.

Even at "Carp Central" on the Illinois River no fish have gone extinct. In fact, over the last few years increases in Sauger and Walleye populations have been reported in the Illinois River. It is also known that Walleye are feeding on Asian Carp minnows. There is also some evidence that Asian Carp in the Illinois River have reached their population density limit due to their high motality rate.

There is also a strong consensus among marine biologists, who have actually studied the Great Lakes ecology and Asian Carp, that, in the worst case scenario, Asian Carp would only have a minimal effect on isolated areas of the Great Lakes. Marine biologists are also confident that Asian Carp will have no impact on the Salmon population.

Asian carp are actually very finicky breeders and, while the Illinois and Mississippi Rivers are well suited for their breeding requirements, the Great Lakes do not offer the conditions that are known to favor Asian Carp reproduction. Asian Carp were once introduced into the Nile River in hopes that they would establish themselves as a source of food but that never materialized and in China hydologic modifications of the Yangtze River has lead to a collapse of the Asian Carp fishery. Adult Asian Carp will likely survive in some parts of the Great Lakes but from what we know about their reproductive requirements they will never pose a threat to the Great Lakes fishery.

Part of the Army Corps study is to gather more evidence and do more research on the true threat Asian Carp pose to the Great Lakes. This would be vital information in determining an appropriate response in regard to controlling their migration. Many of the politicians preaching CarpAgedden really don't want that question answered and I think that is one reason they want the study cut short. However, the citizens who are concerned about the Great Lakes have a right to know the truth even if it doesn't support the political strategy of politicians trying to manipulate this issue as part of their election strategy. Hopefully the Army Corps will continue this research.

There are well over 100 invasive species in the Great Lakes and most have had no or little impact on the ecology. Probably the most well known invasive species that has had little impact on the Great Lakes are the Salmon mentioned above.

It appears that political maneuvering has completely taken over this issue.

First congress, who knows absolutely nothing about the technical complexities of the issue, authorized the Army Corps to conduct a study to determine how best to control the migration of invasive species between the Great Lakes and Mississippi River Basins. The Army Corps, who understands the complexity of the issue and who are the technical experts in these matters, put together a plan to conduct the kind of comprehensive study that would enable them to recommend an intelligent and cost effective solution.

Then, a few congressman who know absolutely nothing about the complexity of the issue, most notably Senators Brown and Portman of Ohio and Senator Stabenow and Representative Camp of Michigam, insisted that the Army Corp cut short their study and make a recommendation in an unreasonably short time frame. Of course this is just election year grandstanding and political pandering.

The outcome of that political strategy now appears to have backfired.

President Obama and the Army Corps have now decided to give those wanting to rush the study exactly what they asked for. So congress, rather than the Army Corps, will now be left to make the hard choices without the benefit of a final recommendation based on a full comprehensive study of the issue. Only after congress has made what will certainly be a compromise choice will the Army Corp finish the study to evaluate whether congress's choice would be feasible, affordable, or even effective in stopping invasive species. If not, the whole process may be repeated several times.

Don't expect any action any time soon this century thanks to Senators Brown, Portman, Stabenow and Representative Camp.

However, this is not the end of the political maneuvering. There is also the issue of potential lock closings on the Mississippi River and Chicago's waterways. Some misguided individuals think that strategy will stop the movement of invasive species. Under the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution only congress has the authority to take such action. However, there are a few congressmen who feel that congress is either unwilling or unable to make that controversial decision so they recently introduced legislation to abdicate that authority to the Army Corps.

So, with all this political maneuvering we now have the Army Corps and the Obama administration telling congress to complete their work because a few congressmen didn't want to give the Army Corps time to do its job and, we have congressmen wanting to abdicate their constitutional authority to the Army Corps because they are unwilling or unable to make decisions.

All this political maneuvering over a fish that most likely will have little impact on the Great Lakes.

The US Supreme Court has consistently ruled that under the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution only Congress, not the President, has the authority to control navigation on any navigable waterway in the United States. That is because all navigable waterways are owned collectively by all the states of the union.

In short, closing the locks or severing the waterways in Chicago is not a Presidential campaign issue because the President does not have authority to take such an action.

As I said in my post above, there is no connection to any stake holders and my only agenda is to cut through the political BS and pandering and focus on the facts and reality of the issue.

My point is that if anyone really wants to learn about this issue they are not going to get honest and factual information from what politicians are saying or from media reporting that simply prints that political carpolacrapola without doing any honest investigative reporting of their own. Honestly, some of the news stories and editorials I have read from the Plain Dealer regarding this issue have been an embarrassment to the citizens of Ohio and were so inaccurate, misleading, and biased that one would be more inclined to believe they were reading a supermarket tabloid than a respected newspaper.

There is plenty of good information to be found regarding this issue but you are going to have to work a lot harder and dig a lot deeper to find it.

Sorry, calling for closing the locks when they know it's never going to happen and when they know the President does not have the authority is just political carp grandstanding and is doing absolutely nothing constructive. Closing the locks is no different than severing the canals - it would take years and $billions to create the infrastructure to support it and we already know that creating physical barriers does not stop invasive species migration. In fact, Asian Carp are already found in lakes and waterways throughout the Midwest that are already completely isolated by substantial land bridges, dams, and even sealed locks. That's a fact!

My connection?

I have been a Great Lakes recreational boater and fisherman on Lakes Huron, Superior, and Michigan for 40 years and, for no other reason than intellectual curiosity, have been studying the environmental, economic, and political aspects of this issue in depth for over three years, I have absolutely no ties to any stake holders regarding the issue.

I do care about the Great Lakes and I can tell you for instance, based on the Great Lakes Commission Study, that reversing the flow of the Chicago River will result in some serious heavy metal (mercury) and other toxic chemical pollution that will endanger the water quality and fishery in Lake Michigan. Something the Commission acknowledged but offered no solution for remediation.

That threat alone is far more real and certain than any threat Asian Carp may pose to the Great Lakes which scientists, who have actually studied Asian Carp and the Great Lakes ecology, are telling us would be minimal and limited to isolated areas under the worst case scenario.

All Senator Sherrod Brown and the others have done is sign on to Senator Stabenow's "Stop Asian Carp Act" which would require the Army Corps to complete a study in 18 months as to how BEST to resolve the Asian Carp issue.

The study is scheduled to be completed by 2015 and, if the Act passed today, it would require the study to be completed by the end of 2013 - or shorten the study by 18 months. Severing Chicago's waterways would take at least 25 years, cost 10s of billions of dollars in infrastructure, economic, and environmental costs, and would still not stop Asian Carp migration. So, what Senator Brown and the others are promoting is cutting off, at best, 18 months of a 25 year solution that will not stop Asian Carp migration.

Furthermore, the Stop Asian Carp Act has little support in Congress other than from a hand full of legislators that are pandering to the fears of their ill informed constituents. It is nothing more than a piece of ill conceived "feel good" legislation that only creates an adversarial relationship between those using the Asian Carp issue as a political reelection tool and those that are actually working to solve the problem.

By promoting such worthless legislation Senator Brown and the others have only become part of the Asian Carp problem rather than part of the solution.

Senator Brown and the others are well aware of this and are also aware that the Army Corp's study will highlight the fact that severing Chicago's waterways will not be the BEST way of controlling invasive species migration. In the end, the ultimate solution will center around population control and biological strategies. The study will also show that the impact of Asian Carp on the Great Lakes would be minimal.

Indep1, you are simply being played by some crafty politicians whose real concern for the Great Lakes is questionable.

Anyone believing that severing one of the nations strategic waterways, serving hundreds of industries and supporting thousands of jobs throughout the Great Lakes & Mississippi River Basins, is even a remote possibility or the BEST way of resolving the Asian Carp issue has absolutely lost touch with reality.

On another note, the Supreme Court has consistently ruled that under the Commerce Claus of the US Constitution only Congress has the authority to control navigation an the nations waterways. The President has absolutely no authority to close or sever Chicago's waterways.

It is indeed ironic that the states, such as Ohio and Michigan, that are screaming the loudest about the Asian Carp's threat to the Great Lakes are the same states who have done absolutely nothing about the illegal transportation of Asian Carp down their own highways.

Perhaps the folks in Ohio and Michigan should spend more time worrying about Asian Carp migrating down their own highways and less time worrying about what is happening in Chicago where an effective barrier system has stopped the Carp migration.

There actually is information on the Great Lakes & Mississippi River Basin Study web site and the Army Corps Chicago District web site that shows the projects being funded, the dollar amounts, and in some cases who is being paid to do the work. All the interim reports that have been published clearly show who was paid to do the work.

I'm not sure what Mr. Kuebler is getting at. Is he insinuating that something illegal or unethical is going on or that someone with a conflict of interest is benefiting behind the scenes by the strategies being studied?

The reality is that the astronomical cost and 25-40 year time frame it would take to sever Chicago's waterways pretty much eliminates that strategy as a viable or feasible solution, particularly since it would not be entirely effective. That is why the Army Corps must investigate other options such as acoustic devices and biological controls if we are to effectively address this issue.

We need to keep in mind that the Army Corps is looking at solutions for not only Chicago's waterways but also for all 18 waterway paths connecting the Mississippi Basin to the Great Lakes. If all we come up with in the study is severing Chicago's waterways then what are we to do with the Maumee River once Asian Carp cross over from the Wabash River? Will we then sever the Maumee as well and put Toledo under several feet of water?

Maybe Mr. Kuebler could tell us exactly what he thinks the real total infrastructure, economic, and environmental costs would be to sever Chicago's waterways, how long it would really take to complete such a strategy, and why he thinks it would be a permanent solution when we know that Asian Carp are found in many lakes and rivers that are already totally isolated by land bridges, dams, and sealed locks.

"The invasion by the silver and big head carp can only be averted by the hydrological separation of the Great Lakes and Mississippi River basins. "

Really?

It is a well know fact that hydrological separation and physical barriers, such as closing locks or constructing land bridges or dams, do not stop invasive species migration. In fact, Asian Carp have been found in lakes and rivers throughout the Midwest that are already completely isolated by substantial land bridges, dams, and closed locks.

The only effective way to deal with Asian Carp and other invasive species is through population control. In fact, population control has been the only successful strategy by which invasive species have been controlled in the Great Lakes and other aquatic systems.

If funding is an issue, why would we want to spend $billions severing Chicago's waterways knowing full well that that strategy would take 25-40 years and will ultimately fail. If we just spent a fraction of those resources on research devoted to population control we could have a cost effective solution in just a few years and a technology that would apply to the Maumee River and other Asian Carp migration paths as well.

Going back to the Supreme Court was nothing more than Political Carp Grandstanding.

Michigan's Attorney General has stated on several occasions that this strategy would go nowhere in the Supreme Court, and yet he continues to pursue this strategy to impress the folks back home in an attempt to convince the uninformed that he is fighting to "save Michigan's way of life." That's just "Pure Michigan" CarpolaCrapola.

At this point all the State of Michigan is doing is creating an adversarial relationship with those actually protecting the Great Lakes and working to resolve the Asian Carp issue. The truth is that the State of Michigan has become part of the Asian Carp problem rather than part of the solution.

It is a well know fact that physical barriers, such as closing locks or constructing land bridges or dams, do not stop invasive species migration. In fact, Asian Carp have been found in lakes and rivers throughout the Midwest that are already completely isolated by substantial land bridges, dams, and closed locks.

The only effective way to deal with this issue is through population control. The fact is that population control is the only successful strategy by which invasive species have been controlled in the Great Lakes and other aquatic systems. Severing a strategic commercial and recreational waterway serving two vital economic regions of the country would be ineffective, prohibitively expensive, irresponsible, and incredibly stupid.

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