Excluding the right side of the line...........this team is very talented. Better coaching and the Phins are 5-2 or maybe 6-1. In addition, the team is quite young and remains in a very strong cap situation.

There were reports Ireland preferred Mike McCoy over Philben, but Ross had the final word..............McCoy is now San Diego's HC and has the team playing well.

Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:05 pm

Rock Sexton

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Is it as talented as you make it out to be? Or is that the Dolphin fan in you saying that?

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:08 pm

IamPZ

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rock Sexton wrote:

Is it as talented as you make it out to be? Or is that the Dolphin fan in you saying that?

At the very least we should have one of the best front 7's in football... and we don't. Coaching is a huge issue here.

Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:34 pm

Rock Sexton

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

IamPZ wrote:

Rock Sexton wrote:

Is it as talented as you make it out to be? Or is that the Dolphin fan in you saying that?

At the very least we should have one of the best front 7's in football... and we don't. Coaching is a huge issue here.

Front 4 maybe. This LB core is mediocre, especially run stuffing at the edges and in coverage. They're not even producing turnovers/sacks which supposedly was what they were going to bring when they signed Ellerbe/Wheeler.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:37 pm

IamPZ

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rock Sexton wrote:

IamPZ wrote:

Rock Sexton wrote:

Is it as talented as you make it out to be? Or is that the Dolphin fan in you saying that?

At the very least we should have one of the best front 7's in football... and we don't. Coaching is a huge issue here.

Front 4 maybe. This LB core is mediocre, especially run stuffing at the edges and in coverage. They're not even producing turnovers/sacks which supposedly was what they were going to bring when they signed Ellerbe/Wheeler.

True, but if we had stuck with the 3-4 our Defensive front would look so much better:

Who am I missing? Either way, that's a pretty sick setup. I'm usually a proponent for the 4-3, but with the talent we have, it looks more like we should be swinging a 3-4.

Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:42 pm

Rich

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rock Sexton wrote:

IamPZ wrote:

Rock Sexton wrote:

Is it as talented as you make it out to be? Or is that the Dolphin fan in you saying that?

At the very least we should have one of the best front 7's in football... and we don't. Coaching is a huge issue here.

Front 4 maybe. This LB core is mediocre, especially run stuffing at the edges and in coverage. They're not even producing turnovers/sacks which supposedly was what they were going to bring when they signed Ellerbe/Wheeler.

Ellerbe and Wheeler were just as good at Dansby and Burnett last season.

I think it is definitely the scheme.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:55 pm

swerve13

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

coaching is definitely the problem in Miami. I would kill to go back in time and go with McCoy instead. He's a quarterbacks best friend.

Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:11 pm

NFLJunkie

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

You jetison Long and Bush...both leaders on the offense. Long was injured a lot but played better than what they have now with the injuries. Vontae Davis used to set the edge on defense as well as any CB in the league. The OL has been an issue pre-dating current staff.

Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:20 pm

Rock Sexton

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rich wrote:

Ellerbe and Wheeler were just as good at Dansby and Burnett last season.

I think it is definitely the scheme.

Agree to disagree, regardless of PFF stats.

Wheeler IMO is simply not competent enough in any scheme where he'd have to take on blockers. He's too light in the pants.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:34 pm

Rock Sexton

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

NFLJunkie wrote:

You jetison Long and Bush...both leaders on the offense. Long was injured a lot but played better than what they have now with the injuries. Vontae Davis used to set the edge on defense as well as any CB in the league. The OL has been an issue pre-dating current staff.

That's the other thing. These DB's don't set the edge either.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:36 pm

Rich

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rock Sexton wrote:

Rich wrote:

Ellerbe and Wheeler were just as good at Dansby and Burnett last season.

I think it is definitely the scheme.

Agree to disagree, regardless of PFF stats.

Wheeler IMO is simply not competent enough in any scheme where he'd have to take on blockers. He's too light in the pants.

Good coaches make the schemes work for the players, not the other way around.

And regardless of PFF stats, Burnett was a dud for most of his time in Miami. It was late last season that the lightbulb went off.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:41 pm

shularino

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

NFLJunkie wrote:

You jetison Long and Bush...both leaders on the offense. Long was injured a lot but played better than what they have now with the injuries. Vontae Davis used to set the edge on defense as well as any CB in the league. The OL has been an issue pre-dating current staff.

I'm on the fence about the Vontae trade...........I think he was too inconsistent and Ireland didn't see him as a long-term fit. The question is what's Jamar Taylor's value...........he hasn't gotten much playing time so far.............that may change next year, depending on negotiations with Grimes.

I'm not on the fence about Long & Bush. The current coaching staff didn't know how to use Bush.........he wasn't meant to run the ball in between the tackles. That's not on Ireland.

After two regressing years and a history of injury.............it would have been irresponsible to sign Long to a big contract.

Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:42 pm

Rock Sexton

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rich wrote:

And regardless of PFF stats, Burnett was a dud for most of his time in Miami. It was late last season that the lightbulb went off.

Actually he played well during that nice stretch in the 2nd half of the season in 2011. Then we switched the scheme on him to Coyle's. Obviously there is an adjustment period.

Now you could say that for Wheeler (needing a period of adjustment), but does he deserve that kind of goodwill?

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:43 pm

Rock Sexton

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

shularino wrote:

I'm on the fence about the Vontae trade...........I think he was too inconsistent and Ireland didn't see him as a long-term fit. The question is what's Jamar Taylor's value...........he hasn't gotten much playing time so far.............that may change next year, depending on negotiations with Grimes.

I'm not on the fence about Long & Bush. The current coaching staff didn't know how to use Bush.........he wasn't meant to run the ball in between the tackles. That's not on Ireland.

After two regressing years and a history of injury.............it would have been irresponsible to sign Long to a big contract.

There's your problem though .... a coaching staff who doesn't consistently know how to utilize talent. They operate in the stone-age that you grab a schematic and make the players fit it. With how often we strike out in the draft and FA that is criminally stubborn.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:45 pm

NFLJunkie

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

We got Egnew and Vernon out of that deal. Egnew remains a guy who is full of potential that may never be reached. Vernon is a good starter. Davis was a star while he was here. He manned up against the other teams best guy and often shut him out. Ditto for Smith. You don't draft young talent and then trade them in the middle of their most productive years. You don't win doing that. It is great to be a young team...but a young team with no veterans is a ship without an anchor...yeah it floats but the winds decide which way.

Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:51 pm

shularino

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

NFLJunkie wrote:

We got Egnew and Vernon out of that deal. Egnew remains a guy who is full of potential that may never be reached. Vernon is a good starter. Davis was a star while he was here. He manned up against the other teams best guy and often shut him out. Ditto for Smith. You don't draft young talent and then trade them in the middle of their most productive years. You don't win doing that. It is great to be a young team...but a young team with no veterans is a ship without an anchor...yeah it floats but the winds decide which way.

Not sure I understand your post Junkie......."We got Egnew and Vernon out of that deal."?

Anyway........like I said about Davis.........not sure that was a good trade........time will tell........but it's stretching things to think Davis was going to provide Veteran Leadership.........he consistently showed up to camp out of shape........and let's face it.........he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Patterson and Grimes are substantial improvements to Smith, plus they're cheaper. One good thing about this season is we don't have to watch Smith drop interceptions or whiff on tackles.

Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:29 pm

Rich

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rock Sexton wrote:

Rich wrote:

And regardless of PFF stats, Burnett was a dud for most of his time in Miami. It was late last season that the lightbulb went off.

Actually he played well during that nice stretch in the 2nd half of the season in 2011. Then we switched the scheme on him to Coyle's. Obviously there is an adjustment period.

Now you could say that for Wheeler (needing a period of adjustment), but does he deserve that kind of goodwill?

As much as Wheeler is out of position in this system, Burnett used to do it just as much. And Burnett had ZERO ability to cover tight ends.

In my opinion, that move is a wash.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:01 pm

Big Dave

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rich wrote:

As much as Wheeler is out of position in this system, Burnett used to do it just as much. And Burnett had ZERO ability to cover tight ends.

In my opinion, that move is a wash.

Yep ... and we brought Burnett to help cover tight ends as he did a decent job with it at San Diego.

What I would put on Ireland is that he brought Wheeler in for a look last year and decided to go in another direction. What didn't they see?

As much as Wheeler is out of position in this system, Burnett used to do it just as much. And Burnett had ZERO ability to cover tight ends.

In my opinion, that move is a wash.

Yep ... and we brought Burnett to help cover tight ends as he did a decent job with it at San Diego.

What I would put on Ireland is that he brought Wheeler in for a look last year and decided to go in another direction. What didn't they see?

I think the Dolphins offered him a one year deal but he went to Oakland because of the opportunity to start there versus here, where he would need to compete for the job with Burnett.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:16 pm

shularino

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Another point......... Wheeler had his best year in 2012............109 total tackles, 3 sacks, 6 pass defended. His stock went up considerably last year. His numbers are trending toward a similar year in 2013.

Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:21 pm

Rich

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Interesting... in looking at their numbers...

Kevin Burnett:47 tackles, 1 sack, 7 pressures, 9 missed tackles

Rated 8.1 against the run, -1.5 when rushing the passer and -6.5 in pass coverage

Phillip Wheeler51 tackles, 1 sack, 14 pressures, 9 missed tackles

Rated -1.5 against the run, 3.7 as a pass rusher and -6.2 in pass coverage

Same number of missed tackles, Burnett has been good against the run and not much else. Wheeler has been good at pressuring the QB and not much else.

I don't see the big drop off and Wheeler is the cheaper, younger player.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:26 pm

Rock Sexton

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rich wrote:

Interesting... in looking at their numbers...

Kevin Burnett:47 tackles, 1 sack, 7 pressures, 9 missed tackles

Rated 8.1 against the run, -1.5 when rushing the passer and -6.5 in pass coverage

Phillip Wheeler51 tackles, 1 sack, 14 pressures, 9 missed tackles

Rated -1.5 against the run, 3.7 as a pass rusher and -6.2 in pass coverage

Same number of missed tackles, Burnett has been good against the run and not much else. Wheeler has been good at pressuring the QB and not much else.

I don't see the big drop off and Wheeler is the cheaper, younger player.

I know the number you just gave me, but Wheeler has been good at pressuring the QB? In what game? The Indy game is the lone example I can think of.

Given the considerable difference in the run rating, I'd still go Burnett. Plus guys like him were better leaders on the field.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:22 pm

bobby0112

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

If you look at all the bad draft choices over the last 5 years you will have the answer to your question. Especially all the wasted 2nd and 3rd round picks. Look at his inability to draft o-lineman that actually contribute you will have the answer to your question. This team is thin on talent and even worse at depth with the exception of the D line.

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:17 pm

FrustratedFinFan

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Don't forget the bad moves in free agency/trades. The team probably should fire just about everyone involved in talent evaluation/selection. We are still without a #1 receiver, still can't cover tight ends, still have a lousy offensive line and constantly trade away talent that other teams develop. Ireland is horrible. I wanted him gone last year for sure.....

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Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:56 pm

shularino

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

It's going to be difficult not to get rid of the GM with the Coaching Staff.............but I think Ross has a lot of trust in Ireland..........he kept him after firing the coaching staff.......he had an opportunity to get Fischer, but did not want to see Ireland's role diminished........ he signed Ireland to an extension earlier this season.

As I previously stated in another topic, I believe it's unfair to hold Ireland accountable for the bullying fiasco, that was more about the leadership in the locker room and Martin's mental state.

Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:49 pm

FrustratedFinFan

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Martin was an Ireland draft pick. He deserves some of the blame there....

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:06 pm

shularino

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

FrustratedFinFan wrote:

Martin was an Ireland draft pick. He deserves some of the blame there....

It certainly appears Martin has played his last play for the Phins..........so in that regard, he's a bust, but Martin was projected as a potential first rounder in the 2012 draft. Per NFL.com's Mike Mayock's draft analysis.........."First-round talent right here, tremendous arm length. I call him a little bit of a finesse player. Doesn't mean he's not tough, but he's so good with his feet and understands angles. I believe the Dolphins just got themselves a starter on either the right or left side."

To me, this is not a case of what was Ireland thinking when he drafted him..............he seemed the logical pick.

Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:36 pm

NFLJunkie

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rich wrote:

At the very least we should have one of the best front 7's in football... and we don't. Coaching is a huge issue here.

Ellerbe and Wheeler were just as good at Dansby and Burnett last season.

I think it is definitely the scheme.

U keep saying this but the stats don't bear that out

Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:39 pm

NFLJunkie

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Ireland has been mediocre at best. He let Long go for Martin. He signed Clabo the human turnstile. He let Smtih, Davis, Bush go. This team is worse than last years and that is saying a lot

Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:42 pm

Dphins4me

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rock Sexton wrote:

Agree to disagree, regardless of PFF stats.

Wheeler IMO is simply not competent enough in any scheme where he'd have to take on blockers. He's too light in the pants.

I said it when they signed him to such a large deal. They were not impressed with him the yr prior & did not offer him enough to entice him to sign. One yr later, major FA money. Simply did not & still do not understand that.

Did they miss read him the first time?

Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:53 pm

Dphins4me

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

NFLJunkie wrote:

Ireland has been mediocre at best. He let Long go for Martin. He signed Clabo the human turnstile. He let Smtih, Davis, Bush go. This team is worse than last years and that is saying a lot

Not going to be a hypocrite on this. They had to let Long go considering his less that stellar play & injury problems. They would have had to pay for Pro Bowl play, but getting tier 2 results.

Who knew Clabo would be this bad?

Has to be something in the coaching.

Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:56 pm

Rich

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

NFLJunkie wrote:

Rich wrote:

At the very least we should have one of the best front 7's in football... and we don't. Coaching is a huge issue here.

Ellerbe and Wheeler were just as good at Dansby and Burnett last season.

I think it is definitely the scheme.

U keep saying this but the stats don't bear that out

The stats don't bear out that the scheme sucks? How so?

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:00 pm

Finhead34

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Davis was a star while he was here. He manned up against the other teams best guy and often shut him out. Ditto for Smith.

I don't know about these comments. Sean Smith couldn't catch a cold for us and Vontae had plenty of burned moments in coverage and I can recall us fans being a bit unhappy about these guys.

They certainly weren't Sam Madison & Patrick Surtain.

Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:56 pm

TommyNoleFin

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Jeff Ireland's track record with player personnel is mediocre at best. He is extremely unprofessional and has a bad reputation around the league. He needs to go.

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:53 pm

swerve13

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

IamPZ wrote:

Rock Sexton wrote:

Is it as talented as you make it out to be? Or is that the Dolphin fan in you saying that?

At the very least we should have one of the best front 7's in football... and we don't. Coaching is a huge issue here.

ya, there is talent all over this roster, sans the offensive line. We should be at 6 wins right now.

Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:28 pm

swerve13

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Finhead34 wrote:

Davis was a star while he was here. He manned up against the other teams best guy and often shut him out. Ditto for Smith.

I don't know about these comments. Sean Smith couldn't catch a cold for us and Vontae had plenty of burned moments in coverage and I can recall us fans being a bit unhappy about these guys.

They certainly weren't Sam Madison & Patrick Surtain.

Ya, i don't agree with anyone that thinks Davis and Smith lived up to their draft status here.

Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:34 pm

Dphins4me

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Rich wrote:

As much as Wheeler is out of position in this system, Burnett used to do it just as much. And Burnett had ZERO ability to cover tight ends.

In my opinion, that move is a wash.

Maybe on the field wise, but certainly not cap wise. Still wondering if they thought so highly of Wheeler, then why didn't they offer him a better deal two yrs ago when he was cheap.

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Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:09 am

jammer

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

FINesse wrote:

you think if Ireland goes he is ever a GM in the NFL again?

No, but I could see him being an assistant or consultant. Despite the criticism, the guy has brought some talent to Miami.

He's never hand picked his own coach so I'm not sure that the current talent wouldn't be doing better under someone else.

The people skills and his comments (Dez Bryant, Jonathan Martin) will be the biggest detractor.

Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:01 am

NFLJunkie

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Re: Is it Really Ireland's Fault?

Quote:

The stats don't bear out that the scheme sucks? How so?

The stats don't bear out that Wheeler and Ellerbe are better than Dansby - Burnett. Burnett struggled early in Miami's scheme but he and Dansby started playing extremely well after game 6 in 2011. The ability to stop the run and the pass was better last season that this season. If someone gave me the ability to trade back I would.