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Topic: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise? (Read 8403 times)

I am still in Chrismatic Church now. ( I will visit the Orthodox Church in Hong Kong next week )

Recently,I heard a man was possessed by the demons. When the staff in my Church cast out the demons from that man's body, He(e.g.that staff) forces that man to read the Scripture verses which is about Hell and the ending of demons, like Rev20:10 . That man( or the demons insides that men) feel fear and then run away immedidately. Do you think it is appropriate to use Hell verse to fear the demons when we exorcise ?

You need to look into how The Orthodox Church deals with this. I am not an expert.

I know that these exorcism are always read by the priest. Those who are exorcised need to fast and confess, otherwise the curses do not work. I don't think it has to do with scaring demons because they don't really get scared. It has to do with the fact that The Lord gave us power over Satan. The priest basically orders the demons to leave just like Christ did. As always, we need to stay away from literally fighting with demons and being hateful towards them; this will call them even more, not send them away. It's all about the power that God gave us, the way we repent (our purity), the power of The Cross (symbol of God's love and sacrifice), etc. The Orthodox Church does not believe in violence and hate, even towards demons. We hate their condition, their sin, but not themselves.

You need to look into how The Orthodox Church deals with this. I am not an expert.

I know that these exorcism are always read by the priest. Those who are exorcised need to fast and confess, otherwise the curses do not work. I don't think it has to do with scaring demons because they don't really get scared. It has to do with the fact that The Lord gave us power over Satan. The priest basically orders the demons to leave just like Christ did. As always, we need to stay away from literally fighting with demons and being hateful towards them; this will call them even more, not send them away. It's all about the power that God gave us, the way we repent (our purity), the power of The Cross (symbol of God's love and sacrifice), etc. The Orthodox Church does not believe in violence and hate, even towards demons. We hate their condition, their sin, but not themselves.

You say the demons inside that man's body don't really get scared. They just make a false show of scaring but not really get scared. Why do the demons do so?

You say the demons inside that man's body don't really get scared. They just make a false show of scaring but not really get scared. Why do the demons do so?

Well, they hate being exorcised, but the exorcism is not about scaring them away. There is something deeper going on like I said -- it has to do with the power that God gave us, our faith, our purity, etc. It's not as simple as saying a few things that scare them away.

Plus, I am speaking for the Orthodox Church. I am not exactly replying to your own experiences elsewhere.

You need to look into how The Orthodox Church deals with this. I am not an expert.

I know that these exorcism are always read by the priest. Those who are exorcised need to fast and confess, otherwise the curses do not work. I don't think it has to do with scaring demons because they don't really get scared. It has to do with the fact that The Lord gave us power over Satan. The priest basically orders the demons to leave just like Christ did. As always, we need to stay away from literally fighting with demons and being hateful towards them; this will call them even more, not send them away. It's all about the power that God gave us, the way we repent (our purity), the power of The Cross (symbol of God's love and sacrifice), etc. The Orthodox Church does not believe in violence and hate, even towards demons. We hate their condition, their sin, but not themselves.

I am no expert on this, but it seems to me what Jesus said to the disciples was that it was them who had to fast and pray,and have more faith to have the ability to cast out Demons.

Matthew 17The Healing of a Boy With a Demon

14When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15“Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”

17“O unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.a”

22When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. 23They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.

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The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

You need to look into how The Orthodox Church deals with this. I am not an expert.

I know that these exorcism are always read by the priest. Those who are exorcised need to fast and confess, otherwise the curses do not work. I don't think it has to do with scaring demons because they don't really get scared. It has to do with the fact that The Lord gave us power over Satan. The priest basically orders the demons to leave just like Christ did. As always, we need to stay away from literally fighting with demons and being hateful towards them; this will call them even more, not send them away. It's all about the power that God gave us, the way we repent (our purity), the power of The Cross (symbol of God's love and sacrifice), etc. The Orthodox Church does not believe in violence and hate, even towards demons. We hate their condition, their sin, but not themselves.

You say the demons inside that man's body don't really get scared. They just make a false show of scaring but not really get scared. Why do the demons do so?

because the Devil is a liar from the beggining and he will do anything to scoff.

Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.Mahatma Gandhi

We believe that only in the Orthodox Church it is possible to exorcise demons, provided that it is done by a priest and all the people involved have been fasting, confessing, etc.

The Protestant and Catholic Christians cannot exorcise the demons in Jesus' name?

Can Orthodox Christians cast out the demons under the supervision and guidance of the Priest?

We believe that the Orthodox Church is the only true and catholic (universal) Church and that there is no salvation outside of Her. No, only a priest is allowed to exorcise because he has a specific Grace from God that he receives upon ordination.

We believe that the Orthodox Church is the only true and catholic (universal) Church and that there is no salvation outside of Her. No, only a priest is allowed to exorcise because he has a specific Grace from God that he receives upon ordination.

Exorcism is common in Pentecostal and Charismatic Church. Are they all false and fake?

We believe that the Orthodox Church is the only true and catholic (universal) Church and that there is no salvation outside of Her. No, only a priest is allowed to exorcise because he has a specific Grace from God that he receives upon ordination.

Exorcism is common in Pentecostal and Charismatic Church. Are they all false and fake?

Well, they are not false and fake because those people are indeed trying to exorcise. However, we believe that the Orthodox Church is the only one that has Grace, the only original and perpetual Church.

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake.

Orthodox Christian and Non-Orthodox Christian(Protestant and Catholic) also heal the sick and cast out demons in the name of Jesus. What is the difference betweeen Orthodox's miraculous way and non-Orthodox's miraculous way?

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake.

Orthodox Christian and Non-Orthodox Christian(Protestant and Catholic) also heal the sick in the name of Jesus. What is the difference betweeen Orthodox's miraculous way and non-Orthodox's miraculous way?

We do not believe non-Orthodox can perform miracles. They may say they do, they may think that they do, they may even lie that they do, etc., but they don't. Orthodox miracles are very obvious and transcendent. After they happen, you know for sure that it was God who performed them because He actually reveals Himself. Non-Orthodox who claim that they've seen miracles do not have that certainty that it was God for sure (even though their illness might go away, for example).

In my Protestant Church, I heard many testimonies which God changed their life after they believe in and pray to God.It seems that God still perform many works and miracles in Non-Orthodox. How to explain this testimonies?

How about this Pentecostal miracles? Many people,including doctors , their family members ,etc proved that the man in video had already died . But after the prayer of pastor, that man was rised from the dead. How to explain this?

Sorry, I cannot watch those videos. Like I said: it's one thing to pray and then heal, and another thing to receive healing as a revelation from God. For example, I've had countless colds and always healed. I probably prayed to God to heal me of many of those colds, and even though I always healed, God never told me that He healed me. I simply assumed He did.

People will claim many things, but that's subjective, it's how they perceive reality. And, things can get very deceiving in our world. All I can say is that the Orthodox Church is the original and only Church that Christ ever established. Therefore, we believe that God works miracles only through His Church. Doesn't mean He doesn't love all people and will help them heal, but miracles are miracles, and He will only perform miracles in the True Church so that people come to The Truth and don't go astray.

I am still a bit confuse. Because I really heard many healing and deliverance miracles from Protestant , I also heard some testimonies from the brother ofmy church, and even saw some healing mircales in the conference... : How can I know all these healings are not true miracles? How can I identify and test them?

There should be some CLEAR methods to test and identify which miracles are true and from not, which are not.

I am still a bit confuse. Because I really heard many healing and deliverance miracles from Protestant , I also heard some testimonies from the brother if my church, and even saw some healing mircales in the conference... :

I agree that it can be confusing. Still, it's a matter of faith. If one believes that The Orthodox Church is the True Church, then it makes no sense for miracles to occur elsewhere. I think our definition of miracles can make a big difference. Many great things do happen in our lives that we can say are miracles, but they are not by the Orthodox standard. A miracle by Orthodox standard is when you know for sure it was miracle and this can happen only if God Himself makes you aware of it. In other words, a miracle is truly a meeting with God, He speaks to you and you know it for sure.

Let me ask you, when you saw those miracles, did God literally speak to you? Did He let you know that they were miracles? No, He didn't. Otherwise, you wouldn't ask questions here. You'd already be convinced. But you are still seeking. Well, I believe that in order to find that conviction you have to look into The Orthodox Church.

I am still a bit confuse. Because I really heard many healing and deliverance miracles from Protestant , I also heard some testimonies from the brother ofmy church, and even saw some healing mircales in the conference... :

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Quote

How can I know all these healings are not true miracles? How can I identify and test them?

There should be some CLEAR methods to test and identify which miracles are true and from not, which are not.

There is:

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I am still a bit confuse. Because I really heard many healing and deliverance miracles from Protestant , I also heard some testimonies from the brother if my church, and even saw some healing mircales in the conference... :

I agree that it can be confusing. Still, it's a matter of faith. If one believes that The Orthodox Church is the True Church, then it makes no sense for miracles to occur elsewhere. I think our definition of miracles can make a big difference. Many great things do happen in our lives that we can say are miracles, but they are not by the Orthodox standard. A miracle by Orthodox standard is when you know for sure it was miracle and this can happen only if God Himself makes you aware of it. In other words, a miracle is truly a meeting with God, He speaks to you and you know it for sure.

Let me ask you, when you saw those miracles, did God literally speak to you? Did He let you know that they were miracles? No, He didn't. Otherwise, you wouldn't ask questions here. You'd already be convinced. But you are still seeking. Well, I believe that in order to find that conviction you have to look into The Orthodox Church.

Protestant Christian like to say that we need to have "FAITH" and believe in the miracle that God manifested for us.

If there is an icon weeping before me, how can I know that this miracle is truly a meeting with God and He speaks to me? (Except "FAITH" which Protestant always mentions )

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.

What's this "we" business? You speak only for yourself when you assert your belief that miracles do not occur outside the Orthodox Church. We are bound to the Church, but the Holy Trinity is not, so how dare you presume to limit where the Holy Spirit will or will not work?

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.

What's this "we" business? You speak only for yourself when you assert your belief that miracles do not occur outside the Orthodox Church. We are bound to the Church, but the Holy Trinity is not, so how dare you presume to limit where the Holy Spirit will or will not work?

There is no "we" business. True, I can't speak for everybody on this forum. There is no Salvation outside The Church. God does not work miracles outside The Church. As I have established before in this thread, miracles are not just the great things that happen to us, but revelations of God's Power. When Orthodoxy receives a miracle, God makes Himself known, and doesn't just act transparently or in a hidden manner.

I am still a bit confuse. Because I really heard many healing and deliverance miracles from Protestant , I also heard some testimonies from the brother ofmy church, and even saw some healing mircales in the conference... :

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Quote

How can I know all these healings are not true miracles? How can I identify and test them?

There should be some CLEAR methods to test and identify which miracles are true and from not, which are not.

There is:

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

exactly.. the bible warns about fake christs and false prophets that will perform wonders.. in Judaism miracles are not a sign(ethanol?) of genuineness..

Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.Mahatma Gandhi

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.

What's this "we" business? You speak only for yourself when you assert your belief that miracles do not occur outside the Orthodox Church. We are bound to the Church, but the Holy Trinity is not, so how dare you presume to limit where the Holy Spirit will or will not work?

There is no "we" business. True, I can't speak for everybody on this forum. There is no Salvation outside The Church. God does not work miracles outside The Church. As I have established before in this thread, miracles are not just the great things that happen to us, but revelations of God's Power.

YOU have not established anything; you have merely spoken your opinion. The question we should be asking is: Who are you?

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.

What's this "we" business? You speak only for yourself when you assert your belief that miracles do not occur outside the Orthodox Church. We are bound to the Church, but the Holy Trinity is not, so how dare you presume to limit where the Holy Spirit will or will not work?

There is no "we" business. True, I can't speak for everybody on this forum. There is no Salvation outside The Church. God does not work miracles outside The Church. As I have established before in this thread, miracles are not just the great things that happen to us, but revelations of God's Power. When Orthodoxy receives a miracle, God makes Himself known, and doesn't just act transparently or in a hidden manner.

Does God only listen the prayers of Orthodox Christians?

If an atheist prays to God in his suffer and hard time and asks God to help him , would GOd ignore his prayers?

Also,if a Protestant or Catholic Christian gets a sick , then he prays and asks God to heal him, would God ignore his prayers?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.

What's this "we" business? You speak only for yourself when you assert your belief that miracles do not occur outside the Orthodox Church. We are bound to the Church, but the Holy Trinity is not, so how dare you presume to limit where the Holy Spirit will or will not work?

There is no "we" business. True, I can't speak for everybody on this forum. There is no Salvation outside The Church. God does not work miracles outside The Church. As I have established before in this thread, miracles are not just the great things that happen to us, but revelations of God's Power. When Orthodoxy receives a miracle, God makes Himself known, and doesn't just act transparently or in a hidden manner.

I agree with Peter. I think you're being far too black and white here and that you're potentially misleading Walter (unintentionally I'm sure) as a result. We'd only accept miracles as genuine if they happened within Orthodoxy (in much the same way as we don't accept post-Schism RC saints, for instance) but we certainly wouldn't reject the possibility of God working miracles outside the Orthodox Church. We just stick to what we know is from God and refrain from passing judgement either way on the rest.

James

« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 05:10:29 AM by jmbejdl »

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

I do not agree. Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

I do not agree. Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.

I never said that we acknowledged miracles outside the Church. I said that we didn't pass judgement either way. I am not disagreeing with your view of Orthodox miracles at all and I'm certainly not saying that we should recognise miracles outside the Church. I am only disagreeing with your assertion that God cannot create miracles outside the Church. God can do as God wills. And if God willed and created a miracle amongst some heterodox group that brought them to the Truth (i.e. to Orthodoxy), are you seriously saying we couldn't recognise that? Your black and white assertion that miracles cannot happen outside the Church (which is distinctly different from saying that the Church does not recognise miracles that happen outside Her) would seem to suggest that we could not.

As for your catechism, by all means post it (or PM me with quotes from it) in Romanian. You don't need to translate it for me (in fact maybe I could translate it for you - second language to native language translations being far easier than the reverse). I'd be very surprised if it differed from what I've been taught by seeking to circumscribe God, however.

James

Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

I never said that we acknowledged miracles outside the Church. I said that we didn't pass judgement either way. I am not disagreeing with your view of Orthodox miracles at all and I'm certainly not saying that we should recognise miracles outside the Church. I am only disagreeing with your assertion that God cannot create miracles outside the Church. God can do as God wills. And if God willed and created a miracle amongst some heterodox group that brought them to the Truth (i.e. to Orthodoxy), are you seriously saying we couldn't recognise that? Your black and white assertion that miracles cannot happen outside the Church (which is distinctly different from saying that the Church does not recognise miracles that happen outside Her) would seem to suggest that we could not.

As for your catechism, by all means post it (or PM me with quotes from it) in Romanian. You don't need to translate it for me (in fact maybe I could translate it for you - second language to native language translations being far easier than the reverse). I'd be very surprised if it differed from what I've been taught by seeking to circumscribe God, however.

James

I agree with you that God can indeed perform miracles outside The Church in order to bring people to The Truth. I'd be wrong to say otherwise. My only mention is then what we consider to be a true miracle. To find out what a true miracle is, then we have to look into what Orthodoxy considers to be a miracle. I think that, many times, people are tempted to consider miracles many things that are not, even though they may be very extraordinary things guided by God in a hidden/covert manner (yet, they do not carry with them that message that it was indeed God's hand, that it was purely transcendent, and calls people to repentance and truth).

Here is that Romanian catechism article. I don't need it translated myself as I am a native Romanian speaker. http://catehism.ortodoxiatinerilor.ro/?p=65To give an example: it's one thing to be ill, take a medicine and be healed even though the doctors said you had no chances, and another thing to be ill, not take a med, but say have Virgin Mary show up and heal you and tell you to sin no more. Both can be perceived as miracles, but they are not. Only the second version gives you the certainty that it was God who calls you to repentance.

I agree with you that God can indeed perform miracles outside The Church in order to bring people to The Truth. I'd be wrong to say otherwise. My only mention is then what we consider to be a true miracle. To find out what a true miracle is, then we have to look into what Orthodoxy considers to be a miracle. I think that, many times, people are tempted to consider miracles many things that are not, even though they may be very extraordinary things guided by God in a hidden/covert manner (yet, they do not carry with them that message that it was indeed God's hand, that it was purely transcendent, and calls people to repentance and truth).

Then we don't actually disagree (which is what I suspected all along) but that is a far cry from some of your earlier posts which were, as I said, far too black and white and could have misled Walter.

You misunderstood. My offer was to translate it into English, which is my native language. It's easier to translate from a second language into your native tongue than the reverse.

James

Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

I agree with you that God can indeed perform miracles outside The Church in order to bring people to The Truth. I'd be wrong to say otherwise. My only mention is then what we consider to be a true miracle. To find out what a true miracle is, then we have to look into what Orthodoxy considers to be a miracle. I think that, many times, people are tempted to consider miracles many things that are not, even though they may be very extraordinary things guided by God in a hidden/covert manner (yet, they do not carry with them that message that it was indeed God's hand, that it was purely transcendent, and calls people to repentance and truth).

Then we don't actually disagree (which is what I suspected all along) but that is a far cry from some of your earlier posts which were, as I said, far too black and white and could have misled Walter.

Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.

You talk only about Orthodox miracles here. I don't contest the faith that miracles do occur in the Orthodox Church, and I'm sure the Church has stringent rules guiding how we discern a true miracle from the false. But nothing you said in the above quote supports your assertion that miracles occur only within the Orthodox Church.

Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.

You talk only about Orthodox miracles here. I don't contest the faith that miracles do occur in the Orthodox Church, and I'm sure the Church has stringent rules guiding how we discern a true miracle from the false. But nothing you said in the above quote supports your assertion that miracles occur only within the Orthodox Church.

Peter, would it be fair to say that nothing you say makes sense to me and that your "authority" means nothing? Where is your own logic for disproving what I say. You only seem offended by what I say, but it does not follow what your arguments are. You only seem bothered when people talk seriously about Orthodoxy, about fear of God, about holiness; sorry, but this attitude is known to me and I believe it is a sin. Let's just say that us two confess Orthodoxy differently. I don't feel threatened by your comments with which I generally disagree thoroughly as I find they are diluting and relaxing the nature of Orthodoxy. I suggest you don't feel threatened by my comments also, as I am only speaking as you do and all others do. I don't know why you can handle what you and others say, and get stuck in my comments. You are really just targeting me.

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.So this can easily be a scam.

Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.Mahatma Gandhi

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.So this can easily be a scam.

I well remember a bottle of holy water from my childhood. This bottle was on a shelf, opposite a large window which faced due east. It was made of plain transparent glass, not green or brown, so it couldn't reduce the effects of sunlight on it. I grew up, I moved out, and the bottle remained in its place on the shelf at my parents' house. The bottle remained there, with no trace of deterioration or contamination of the contents, until about four or five years ago, when the last of the holy water was used. That holy water lasted, unsullied, for at least 35 years.

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.So this can easily be a scam.

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.