Re-signing Hartline doesn't make the Dolphins better. It makes them the same..... which is not good enough.

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:20 am

Kev1321

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

TommyNoleFin wrote:

Re-signing Hartline doesn't make the Dolphins better. It makes them the same..... which is not good enough.

Is that what the Steelers are saying about Wallace or the Patriots about Welker...

Neither. Of those teams were good enough with those guys.

Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:04 am

Big Dave

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

I think Hartline will improve with a legit #1 WR on the team. Right now he's a #2 WR that is facing the top corner each week. That would explain why he has seems to disappear at times. I think he has the best hands since Orande Gadsden. I hate to pay $7 million a year for him though. I guess it is what it is.

Re-signing Hartline doesn't make the Dolphins better. It makes them the same..... which is not good enough.

Losing Hartline doesn't make them better OR make them the same...

There's only one option left.

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:48 pm

10acjed

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

Rich wrote:

Then why are the Dolphins working so hard to keep Hartline?

Is Ireland going against Philbin's wishes?

Well thats the problem, see Philbin is a HC and has worked his way to that spot with nearly 20 years of coaching, 10 of them in the NFL.. Ireland is a GM, he has spent the same ammount of time working his way up from a scout...

So they really do not know what they are doing, in madden I have already traded and signed our future championship team, so I know better....

/sarcasm lol...

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:00 pm

shularino

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

Signing Hartline will provide the Phins security in 2013, but he is not a long-term option at No.2. Take a look at Philbin's old team the Packers...........I'm not sure Hartline even makes that squad.

Green Bay's Top 4 Wide Receivers: James Jones, Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, and Randall Cobb. This group combined for 33 TD's in 2012. The Phin receivers combined for a NFL low 3.

Philbin wants to build a team with serious playmakers........Hartline is not that guy.

Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:11 pm

Rich

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

shularino wrote:

Signing Hartline will provide the Phins security in 2013, but he is not a long-term option at No.2.

Based on what exactly?

Quote:

Take a look at Philbin's old team the Packers...........I'm not sure Hartline even makes that squad.

Over James Jones, who dropped everything in site until he finally broke out this season (and still hasn't had even close to a 1000 yard season)?

Not so sure about that.

Quote:

Green Bay's Top 4 Wide Receivers: James Jones, Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, and Randall Cobb. This group combined for 33 TD's in 2012. The Phin receivers combined for a NFL low 3.

Green Bay is also further along at the quarterback position and in establishing an identify as an offense than a team that just drafted their QB last year and hired a new coach.

Quote:

Philbin wants to build a team with serious playmakers........Hartline is not that guy.

Then why are the Dolphins working so hard to keep Hartline?

Is Ireland going against Philbin's wishes?

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:19 pm

shularino

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

Rich, make your mind up. Last month you said the following..........."23% of his (Hartline) total yardage for the season came in one game (Arizona).

43% of his total yardage came in three games (Arizona, Oakland, Indy).

He also had 8 games with 50 yards or less.

"The point is Hartline is a nice player, I like him, I want us to keep him. But he is still very inconsistent from week to week and he struggles against good corners."

Then you said..........

"I think the consensus is we're all happy to keep him if his contract is in the $4 million range."

Now you say.......

"I don't like the $6 million price, but the market is what it is and it doesn't prevent us from addressing other needs."

Let's say we do sign Wallace, then where does that leave Hartline........a guy that's averaged 1 TD per season for the last 4 years as our No. 2.........I don't think so. Regardless of whether we sign Wallace, WR is still a priority in this draft, meaning Hartline is simply holding the No. 2 spot, until a younger receiver develops..........then he's the 4th option (he's not replacing Bess in the slot).

Trying to retain Hartline is smart............he adds security for 2013 and is a very good No. 4 receiver, when we spread out or one of the Top 3 go down. But $6mil/yr is foolish. I would offer $4mil/yr for 2 yrs with Owner friendly options after that.

Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:31 pm

swerve13

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

Quote:

ESPN's Adam Schefter confirmed on SportsCenter Wednesday that the Dolphins are viewed as the favorites to land free agent Mike Wallace.This has been the worst-kept secret of 2013 free agency. "A lot of people around the league believe that the Miami Dolphins are poised to make a major run at a player who many regard as the No. 1 free agent available," said Schefter, adding that the Dolphins are "desperate" for speed to surround Ryan Tannehill. "... A lot of people around the league believe the Dolphins are the team to beat."

Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:40 pm

Rich

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

shularino wrote:

Rich, make your mind up.

Sorry that I am not as dogmatic as you. I like to assess and re-assess a situation as new information comes in. Given that Dwayne Bowe got the contract he got, the market is now set for wide receivers. And there is something to be said for the chemistry that began developing between Hartline and Tannehill. I see Hartline as another O.J. McDuffie, a good possession receiver who kept the chains moving but didn't blow the top off the defense. I think that is worth $6 million given the market for receivers.

Quote:

Let's say we do sign Wallace, then where does that leave Hartline........a guy that's averaged 1 TD per season for the last 4 years as our No. 2.........I don't think so.

There is no logic in what you're saying. If we sign Wallace, there is no other place for Hartline to go other than our #2 wide receiver. Signing Wallace doesn't move Hartline to the #4 receiver as you keep saying... for some inexplicable reason. Drafting a receiver doesn't move Hartline to #4. And Bess is a UFA after this season, so we could very well draft BESS'S replacement, not Hartline's.

Quote:

Regardless of whether we sign Wallace, WR is still a priority in this draft, meaning Hartline is simply holding the No. 2 spot, until a younger receiver develops..........then he's the 4th option (he's not replacing Bess in the slot).

But if we resign Hartline, we can afford to draft a developmental wide receiver later and focus on other needs earlier. We can focus on BPA rather than positional needs.

And if we resign Hartline to a 3 year, $18 million deal, then it really becomes a 2 year deal. Then you can trade Hartline or release him before year 3 if he doesn't continue getting better (something you're refusing to factor into the equation, yes he can get better).

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:59 pm

shularino

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

He didn't get better last year......he got worse. In the second half of the season, he had 41 receptions for 361 yds and 0 TD's..........this was as our No.1 target.

Per your previous post......

"he is still very inconsistent from week to week and he struggles against good corners."

I agree with you fully and nothing should have occurred between then in now for you to reassess that.

Ireland recognizes the team needs more play-makers in the receiving positions. A guy that has 4 TDs in 4 years, is NOT a playmaker. If Wallace is signed, then why is it so hard for you to believe we pick up a better receiver in the draft.........moving Hartline to No. 4? Please don't give me we simply pickup a developmental receiver and let him mature, how many times has Ireland been burnt on that.

Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:39 pm

phinsfansc

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

Hartline can be a solid WR for Miami, and he is a solid #2-3 WR in my opinion. He not a main WR, but in this role, he is a nice piece to have.

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:15 pm

bobby0112

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

shularino wrote:

If Wallace is signed, then why is it so hard for you to believe we pick up a better receiver in the draft.........moving Hartline to No. 4?

Because Ireland has been even more inconsistent at drafting and signing free agents over the last 4 years than Hartline has been at scoring TD's. And especially because Ireland has really struggled in making quality picks in the 1st through 4th round that manage to stay on the roster for any length of time. So just because Miami will have 6 picks in the first 4 rounds it doesn't guarantee success. Its just common sense to resign Hartline because of his chemistry with Tannehill. If Miami is able to upgrade later then you can trade or release him. But don't create another roster hole by letting Hartline walk through free agency and hope to draft a successor.

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:31 pm

AQNOR

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

Big Dave wrote:

... I hate to pay $7 million a year for him though. I guess it is what it is.

BD, just curious, where is the 7 mil coming from?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:53 pm

Rock Sexton

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

shularino wrote:

He didn't get better last year......he got worse. In the second half of the season, he had 41 receptions for 361 yds and 0 TD's..........this was as our No.1 target.

Now you're just playing semantics, picking and choosing which portion of the season counts.

This might blow your mind, so grab something to hold onto ..... but could it be teams rolled coverages over to Hartline since he was Tanny's security blanket? Nooooooo. Couldn't have happened after such a hot start. Your suggestion that it was just him regressing is a complete misrepresentation.

Please don't reply back to me that he should be on the level of the game's elite and be able to rise above it. Everyone on the planet knows he's not that kind of receiver. Yet, with a true #1 on the roster Hartline is a perfectly capable #2 and has the most chemistry with our young QB.

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Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:01 pm

jammer

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

Couple of possibilities no one is talking about - first, Ireland could be sensing that maybe he isn't going to land either Wallace or Jennings, so he had to lock up at least one reliable veteran. Second, its possible he was sensing that there is going to be a huge demand for Hartline and that Hartline might actually be a better option than Jennings in the long term. Grab the second best option available if you lose out on Wallace.

I like this signing (well hopeful signing) the more I think about it.

Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:07 pm

Rich

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

shularino wrote:

He didn't get better last year......he got worse.

So let me get this straight, he doubled his yardage and receptions from 2011 but got worse.

Makes a lot of sense.

Quote:

In the second half of the season, he had 41 receptions for 361 yds and 0 TD's..........this was as our No.1 target.

Actually it was 33 receptions for 421 yards in the last 8 games. Not sure where you're getting your numbers from.

Yes, he slowed down the 2nd half of the season, probably because defenses started keying in on him. They started putting the other team's best corner on him all day long. But he still had 4 very good games the 2nd half of the season.

8 for 79 against Tenn.5 for 84 against NE.5 for 77 agains Jax.5 for 69 against NE.

Quote:

"he is still very inconsistent from week to week and he struggles against good corners."

I agree with you fully and nothing should have occurred between then in now for you to reassess that.

I haven't changed my opinion of his play on the field. But I don't believe I've posted anywhere that we should pay him #1 receiver money. I've said I am OK all along with paying him #2 wide receiver money. The only thing I've reassessed is what the value of a good #2 wide receiver is. $6 million sounds fair to me given the market value set by an 800 yard receiver who just resigned with his own team. If he is making more than $10 million as a #1 receiver for putting up 800 yards and a couple of TDs, I have no problem paying our 1000 yard receiver $6 million to be a #2.

It's simple economics. The cap goes up, the value of players go up. You're not going to find a #2 receiver like Hartline for $4 million. The price is $6-7 million.

This is the only thing you're hung up is a couple of million dollars that aren't even coming out of your pocket book. Get over it.

Quote:

Ireland recognizes the team needs more play-makers in the receiving positions.

Really? I thought we just needed playmakers... whether at receiver, running back, tight end, cornerback, pass rusher etc. This is what Ireland means when he says playmakers, not solely at wide receiver.

Quote:

A guy that has 4 TDs in 4 years, is NOT a playmaker.

It's actually 6 TDs in four years. Again, not sure where you're getting your numbers from.

Quote:

If Wallace is signed, then why is it so hard for you to believe we pick up a better receiver in the draft.........moving Hartline to No. 4?

Because if we sign Wallace and resign Hartline, we're going to focus on addressing other needs early on. In case you missed it, this team has a plethora of needs from offensive line to tight end to cornerback to free safety to pass rusher. Did I mention offensive line? Because that isn't addressed with one player. Maybe 2 or 3. Ireland is not going to spend $6 million on Hartline and $12-13 million on Wallace to then draft a wide receiver high and move Hartline to #4. That's just plain stupid. If he viewed Hartline as a #4, they wouldn't be in aggressive negotiations right now.

If Ireland does take a receiver high, it will be to address the slot receiver position because Bess is in the last year of his deal. You can then expect Bess to be moved.

Quote:

Please don't give me we simply pickup a developmental receiver and let him mature, how many times has Ireland been burnt on that.

Bess and Hartline were developmental receivers. They've worked out just fine.

I hate signing the #1 free agent available. Most of the time it does not live up to the hype.

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Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:33 pm

10acjed

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

Kev1321 wrote:

Dolfanrar wrote:

Wasn't Hartline quite ill and then injured just before the season last year? Seems to me that he will be better this year without that setback and more time to gel with RT.

If we sign both Hartline and Wallace, Hartline will look like a stud when other teams double up on Wallace.

Great point.And learned a new offense

He was active for the final pre season game, however did not see a live snap that I am aware of..So no camp, no PS, week one he had 3 catches for 50, week 2 he had 9 for 111...

He just flat out gives us a better chance to win in 2013.. People can argue all they want, but he has proven himself to be an asset to this offense..

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Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:44 pm

Dphins4me

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Re: Hartline Near a Deal to Stay in Miami

Rich wrote:

Sorry that I am not as dogmatic as you. I like to assess and re-assess a situation as new information comes in. Given that Dwayne Bowe got the contract he got, the market is now set for wide receivers. And there is something to be said for the chemistry that began developing between Hartline and Tannehill. I see Hartline as another O.J. McDuffie, a good possession receiver who kept the chains moving but didn't blow the top off the defense. I think that is worth $6 million given the market for receivers.

In actual pay. Hartline is not worth more than 3 to 4 million. Funny money I could not care less about.