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Lol ! I can't believe you are drawing that conclusion and putting it down to the fact that these countries have a higher percentage of athiests ! You could also conclude that Nepal has a low crime rate and low murder rates as they are mostly Hindu and Buddhists, which probably make up 99 % of the population mind you. They are very peaceful people. What are you trying to conclude? Atheists are the odd ones out mate. Most of the world is religious if you look at the statistics. You can conclude that you are in the minority as an athiest on the world stage....

What does poverty and crime have to do with religion specifically? I fail to see your point... If a person actually believes in the Bible and wants to become like Christ, why would they turn to crimes? Surely other factors such as topography and the countries position on the Earth ,the ability to cultivate the land and make ends meet, and finally over population in a country would be more of a reason why someone would turn to crime. You are drawing a pretty long bow if you ask me.

What on earth is your point?

This is absolute rubbish. I am not going to bother even responding to this ..... You my friend are a humanist who puts more faith in mankind , the created rather than the creator, and hence, thats why you are hell bent on putting your education first as your faith and trust lies with the created, rather than the creator....

It was you who said: "There is serious evidence to suggest that since it has become compulsory to teach Evolution in school books as fact in the USA since the 1960's, there has been a dramatic increase in Crime, Sexual Immorality, Murder, Abortion, and the list goes on and on. I seriously believe that Teaching Evolution to children and ignoring God's word has had a direct correlation as to why these things have increased and to why family values and morals have dropped off dramatically."

implying that evolution is the cause for crime and lack of morals. This is utter bulls**t. If this were true than you would expect areas that predominantly accept evolution and are predominantly atheist/agnostic (i.e. the countries listed previously) to be rife with crime and low morals when in fact it is the exact opposite, they actually have the lowest crime in the world. Also data shows that the predominantly christian populations have higher crime rates than non-christian areas. I was merely pointing out the ridiculousness of your statement.

Originally Posted by wian

This is absolute rubbish. I am not going to bother even responding to this ..... You my friend are a humanist who puts more faith in mankind , the created rather than the creator, and hence, thats why you are hell bent on putting your education first as your faith and trust lies with the created, rather than the creator....

I figured you wouldn't like facts.

Originally Posted by wian

Which is exactly what evolution is also mate....Indoctrination. Teaching it as fact, rather than a theory... Read the lies in the textbooks which kids are being brainwashed with, that haven't even been removed from the books, even after being proved as false in courts of law or as hoaxes... Indoctrination if you ask me

When was evolution proven false or a hoax in a court of law? Please provide.

Originally Posted by wian

If the scientific method is about being critical and applying doubt, why is it being taught as a fact then? - Evolution is simply a theory, not fact, so what on earth you going on about? Were you there 20 million years ago to categorically tell me what happened for sure? You have no actual proof. There is no actual data that is 100% correct. Its just a theory mate.....

I'm tired of creationists always using this old line, "it's a theory, not fact, therefore it shouldn't be taught". It is creationists not understanding the definition of scientific theory and sounding stupid.

Gravity is also a theory, I suppose it should not be taught. People always get confused about theory, fact and law. Gravity is a theory for explaining why objects are drawn to one another and it is a law of gravity that if you drop an object it will drop to the ground. We use our understanding of this theory in military, air travel, space exploration, etc.

The Theory of Relativity is widely accepted as fact (certain parts, as I said it, is a multifaceted theory). We use this theory in conjunction with gravitational theory for space exploration.

There is also quantum theory used in quantum physics used to explain the peculiar motions of things smaller than atoms, like quarks.

There is also atomic theory. I suppose we shouldn't teach children about atoms. We should teach them god is controlling everything.

How come you are not so angry at these "theories"? Oh right, because it doesn't prove what YOU WANT TO BELIEVE as false. You've said it yourself. You want to believe you are special and don't want to believe in evolution. That's fine with me. Just don't call something false because you don't want to believe it. That is just being ignorant.

Our understanding of the theory of evolution is how we develop our vaccines. If evolution were false, many of our vaccines that work today, would not work.

The theory of evolution is no different than the theory of gravity in terms of scientific theory:

Evolution as fact and theory

Casting evolution as fact and theory occurs regularly in the public and scientific discourse on the fundamental nature of the scientific philosophy within evolutionary biology. This topic appears frequently in publications that aim to clarify misconceptions about the science of evolution and the nature of these terms, often in response to creationist claims that "evolution is only a theory", "it is not a fact", or that intelligent design offers a credible counter "theory". In ensuing debates, evolution is identified as either fact or theory and occasionally both or neither. Semantic differences between the usage of these terms (fact and theory) in science versus the meanings they convey in common vernacular have led to confusion in public discourse. In the context of creationists claims, theory is used in its vernacular meaning as an imperfect fact or an unsubstantiated speculation. The purported intent is to discredit or reject the scientific credibility of evolution. However, this claim cannot be substantiated.[1][2][3]

Evolutionary theory unifies observations from fossils, DNA sequences, systematics, biogeography, and laboratory experiments into a testable explanatory scheme. In this sense, the scientific (as opposed to the vernacular) definition of theory refers to an overarching framework that makes sense of otherwise disconnected observations; this includes, for example, the theory of gravity. Theodosius Dobzhansky, a key contributor to the modern evolutionary synthesis, articulated the unifying power of evolutionary theory in a famous paper entitled: "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution".[4]

The scientific theory of evolution explains the causes of evolution, as distinct from the more straightforward factual claim that the process of evolution occurs. Natural selection and the neutral theory are examples of theories of evolution. These and many other causal evolutionary theories can be expressed in the mathematical framework of population genetics. Since Darwin, the theory of evolution by means of natural selection has not only been expressed mathematically, but has also been rigorously tested and corroborated empirically by scientific evidence from countless studies. Evolutionary theories continue to generate new testable hypotheses within paleontology, genetics, ecology, and developmental biology.

A fact is not a statement of certainty, but through repeated confirmation the things or processes they refer to are generally accepted as true according to the reliability of inference (inductive, deductive, and abductive). Facts refer to "events that occur" or "the state of being of things" that can be publicly verified, proven through experiment, or witnessed by direct observation.[3][5] That all forms of life on Earth are related by common descent with modification is one of the most reliable and empirically tested theories in science that continues to explain vast numbers of facts in biology.[2]

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And somehow I doubt if it were called The Fact of Evolution you would suddenly accept it so spare me the semantics.

Originally Posted by wian

I would welcome my children hearing Evolution if they were also given the opportunity to hear creation also. Then its a level playing field, not biased as it is now... God Created science, so i believe in science also, believe me. Its people like you that confuse the argument as "Science versus religion" which is not correct. Evolution is a religion believe me as the supposed thing, or superhuman power that created the big bang is in fact your God....

The definition of Religion is below in the Oxford dictionary..

"The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:
ideas about the relationship between science and religion"

Why would we teach creationism in a science class? All scientific data and evidence proves christianity false. Teach it in a theology class, not a science class.

And I like how you christians want us to teach "creationism". Bullsh*t. You want to indoctrinate children into christianity.

You don't want us to teach islam, hinduism, etc. Why not teach about Zeus and Apollo too, or Thor, or Ra, that the four Egyptian deities (Shu, Tefnut, Geb, and Nut) created the universe? Oh that's right, those people created their religion from their imagination but not your religion. Your religion is different. It really did happen. Pfff. They all say the same thing.

Hell, there's enough people that believe the moon landing was fake, we should teach that in schools. There's a lot of people that think the holocaust didn't happen, I guess we should teach that as well. It's got to be a "level playing field". Oh right, those people are ignorant and ignoring the facts and evidence because they don't want to believe, but you're different, your nonsubstantiated beliefs contradictory of scientific facts are true. Pffff. They all say the same thing.

Originally Posted by wian

Now again i ask you, what super human power created the Big Bang and put it into motion? Is that not your religion?

As a scientist I cannot say what created the Big Bang. I do not know. There is no data.

If you want to say a being started the Big Bang and set the universe to evolve, then fine, I cannot argue against that. That is your opinion. I have no opinion either way.

But to go from that to....

an all-knowing, all seeing, perfect invisible man that watches over you and reads your thoughts and punishes you for your thoughts.....and created two people to live in perfect harmony but told them not to eat from a tree that the all-knowing, all-seeing, perfect invisible man put there and somehow didn't know or see that they would eat from it, then punishes them for doing so....and every human is born evil, born a sinner...and the all-knowing, all-seeing, perfect invisible man creates an evil being (satan) but the all-knowing, all-seeing, perfect invisible man didn't know or see it would turn evil and influence his most precious creation.....then this all-knowing, all-seeing , perfect being tests his most precious creation and then torchers them for eternity for making the wrong choice even though he already knew what their choice would be before he even tested them...but he loves them....but makes earthquakes, tsunamis, disease, tornados and other natural disasters that have killed millions of his most precious creation...but he loves them

....is well, beyond silly and should not be taught in a science class, particularly when all science disciplines (not just evolution) contradict this obviously made up story by ancient people trying to figure out the world around them and create order. Just like every other religion of the world. The people of ancient Greece believed their god as much as you believe yours, muslims believe Islam as much as you believe yours, and all have the same amount of evidence to support their claims, yet you are right and everybody else is wrong??

@wian: what you fail to understand is that the biblical texts are made completely by men. You seem to not understand that major changes in context might occure while the stories were spread by word of mouth, that the language originally used was meant to be understandable for ordinary people living back then, that some texts were excluded and some added over the centuries, that translating errors might take place, that the Bible includes plenty of political, cultural and social elements, thus changeable factors. I assume you must ba a cranky prick who believes he understands the Bible while hundreds of theologists, biblists, philosophers and scholars didn't.

The bottom line is to me that when all is said and done, you either believe "In the beginning, God was always there , Or in the beginning....... "Dirt" or "Matter" came into being somehow." Its far easier to believe in the beginning "God was there" if you ask me

Evolutionists will never solve the question of what created the matter and how it got there in the first place? That automatically points most logical people towards believing in a supernatural being , a being that was always there in the first place... Evolutionists are already at a disadvantage in the logic stakes....

I know which one i would rather put my faith in and which one is more likely to have occured

To me, those who think it can all happen by chance ,when looking at the complexity of our universe and how ordered it is, are just plain ignorant of how it all works....

Anyway, each to their own. i think we have all stated our opinions which is fair enough. I will leave it at that....

Seriously mate, well put, and well said - I agree with you 1000000 % !!!!

Its not an education, its indoctrination. I am all for evolution to be taught as a "Theory" in school - Believe me.... Its when they teach Evolution as 100 % fact and they mock and ridicule Creationism, that's what pisses me off majorly. I say teach both and let the individual decide.... Stop indoctrinating people ....

I want to talk about 1 point you made where you said that "We are taught this stuff as children....this is basically indoctrination and people that have religious views against this put their kids through schools that believe in this as 100% fact. No wonder why kids rebel so much and family values are low
There is serious evidence to suggest that since it has become compulsory to teach Evolution in school books as fact in the USA since the 1960's, there has been a dramatic increase in Crime, Sexual Immorality, Murder, Abortion, and the list goes on and on. I seriously believe that Teaching Evolution to children and ignoring God's word has had a direct correlation as to why these things have increased and to why family values and morals have dropped off dramatically.

I live in Australia and its getting worse and worse here also. All this stuff points to a "One World Order" if you ask me....