Re: Arch Linux logo concept

... but I still see some issues with it.1. The accute angles won't scale well. This logo looks like s scythe when scaled down significantly.

First of all... thanks for a nice analysis! That's really helpful in creating a possibility to get rid of inpurities and emphasize good sides.

As for scaling I must agree that doing this operation directly leads to poor results for lower sizes. The reason I've done it this way on my contest entry is simply lack of time (on which I'm suffering currently ). I think that this logo needs another, but as close to original as possible, version, tailored especially for small sizes (much as hinting for fonts). By small I understand 32x32 px and less.

PDExperiment626 wrote:

2. The color scheme is very neutral and will not create a strong association between Arch and a specific color. Also neutral colors don't usually depict strength... an interesting contrast to the shape itself. Also, the color scheme is different than the current one; and I've gone over the potential issue with that (a relatively minor point if color scheme migration is an option).

Migrating color scheme is possible, however I'd like to keep colors less saturated and in shades of one color too. This however is my liking.

Hues present in my entry are the first that comes to my mind when I want to think about archlinux color. I think it's connected to my first contact with arch when about 1.5 years ago I was looking for a distro that could replace my gentoo. I was looking for a distro that leaves as much control to me as possible. During my search I've steeped on arch website which gave me a certain impression of tranquillity for which I was pursuing. That's the history of the pastel blues.

Although they are different than in current arch logo, I think they preserve some kind of connection between them.

PDExperiment626 wrote:

3. The concept is fairly abstract; but the immediate associations that come to mind are a. a medieval helmet b. Gothic cathedrals which immediately ties to Christianity.basically this logo gives a historical feel. I understand that it's meant to be a gothic arch; but that structure has very strong historical ties in people's minds to medieval times or Christianity. Take that for what it is (personally, I like the shape... but that matters little when it comes to corporate logos). All-in-all a very good level of abstraction in the logo... I'm just not sure if it conveys the right meaning for Arch (that's for the devs to decide).

Associations that people see are of serious importance for me. Personally, beside of my own believes, I didn't intended to put a tiding to Christianity in my design. My thinking about archlinux was:archlinux -> arch -> gothic arch -> sturdy, durable because it's still here after all these years -> sharp because it's generally a first wave of software tide -> fast -> some similarity to rocket (speed, modern accent) -> calm colors because what I wanted from arch and what I found in it -- tranquility and simplicity -> derocketize the design -- hence left strokes suggestiong inner arches (mediaeval again) -- it have to be arch to connect with a name easily -> a stroke at right side suggesting a shadow casted by isolated arch structure -> left side shape much thinner, ending with sharp shape -> further suggestion of light and shadow but also creating mere "hint" for viewer giving a impression of ellegance -> right sided ended with shape telling a bit about oblique orientation of an object to viewer, adding also some dynamics.

Another argument "for" was an "arch" in meaning arch-bishop, arch-duke (as someone noticed before) etc. -- arch-linux means in this context an "special", "head" linux (with all due respect to any other distro). This connection I think is quite recognizable even thanks to some popular games situated in "mediaeval" and "quasimediaeval" times. The "arch" there means "the boss" .

There's also some sort of thinking behind cd project which I think wuold be apropriate for other media as well. Arch logo + its "reflection" in background have two tasks to fulfill: to give a more contemporary look and to suggest, with connection with text, a bow ("archers" nickname).

Above all I targeted to be as brief as possible without loosing verbosity neccesary to carry a message.

... what I can't tell about my posts shish...

PDExperiment626 wrote:

I get the impression that he also has a nice and cohesive vision of branding and design

The truth is that I have some (for now unrefined) ideas about unified archlinux visual identification.

PDExperiment626 wrote:

The only point of note is that to produce CDs without the clear plastic ring is significantly more expensive than ones with the clear ring.

I'd like to keep the inner ring printed too yet I don't know about costs of its production.

In whole project I've tried to create each step with intention to be able to print it with 2, maximum 3 pantone colors (which is also true for cds).

I'm glad that you've liked my design among so many other swell creations. Thanks also for explanation how you see some specific issues.

iphitus wrote:

foxbunny: Yeah, I already had problems with stability, and I know exactly what you mean. Hadn't thought about the opera house at all though... TheBodziO's design looks more like it than mine

Oh yeah that's true . After all it's not so far -- from your point of view I'm "down under" .

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

I'd like to point this out to developers who may not be aware of it:

The scaled down version of the base logo, when done quick and dirty (as TheBodziO did) can only serve as an approximation of how a real-life icon of the same size would look. Therefore, please do not disqualify logos that seem to have some scaling issues, but are otherwise ok. The icons can be created by abstracting some parts of the base logo (which I assume TheBodziO will do), as well as simplifying/modifying shapes (as I did with the updated Alpha Sun). A skillful artist will have no problem coming up with the most insane scale-downs. However, it is sometimes impossible to come up with any simplification. I would suggest you ask for community's opinion in case you are unsure... or ask James.

A good example of an impossible logo is the King Penguin. The base logo cannot be scaled down in any way. (There you go, I disqualified it myself )

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

@Foxbunny

I believe scaling to be one of the most important issues for a logo designed for a distro. The larger the logo, the easier it is to design. Not being able to scale IS a significant issue for logo that will receive significant viewing at 22x22 and 16x16 sizes. It's a major reason why it's so hard to design a good logo for a distro; they need to scale well. I believe telling devs that they should vote with a blind eye to this idea is a mistake.

If there are good logos proposed that show good scaling and work on both color backgrounds, I think they should be considered above those submissions that don't. It's too important to ignore those ideas.

It's not impossible to have a good logo that scales well and works on multiple backgrounds. Indeed, there are already submissions that do that (I see at least four just glancing at the submissions). So why take (and make excuses for) a logo that doesn't meet the design criterion (as indicated in the submission sheet) when there are good designs that do meet all the criterion?

I do agree that a logo can be abstracted differently in scaling to make the situation work, but I believe this should be included with the submission. Actually, the pimp submission does this well (the feather gets lost, but I can still tell it's a pimp hat at small scales).

I mean really, if a pimp logo can be made to work with a variety of scales and backgrounds, so can other logos.

@TheBodziO

I'm glad you found my comments helpful. For what it's worth, personally I am very impressed with the quality of your submission and the skill in your logo design (abstract but not generic).

@Tsixe

I think your first submission is good. It'd be nice if you could fill out the rest of the submission, as incomplete forms usually hurt the idea in judging. The logo scales well, can work on a variety of backgrounds and has a good level of abstraction. Nice job so far.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

PDExperiment626 wrote:

This is my current favorite for a few reasons.1. The logo is simple (4 elements) with no acute edges. It will scale well and will be easy to read on flat and textured backgrounds.2. The logo is abstract enough so that it doesn't compete against viewers mindshare against other preexisting associations. The look is more industrial and conveys a notion of strength as its based heavily on the outline of a triangle. Triangles (pointing up) have very strong ties to ideas of strength and masculinity. If a logo is abstract the idea it conveys is dominated by its underlying shape and color. Unfortunately, the first logo isn't abstracted far enough away from a teepee to shake that initial impression.7. Freegeist said this reminds him of a power supply grill. While I've never seen a triangular power supply grill myself, he even associates the symbol with an object of power within a computer.

Thank you. My concept of the idea of 'arch linux' was that it was meant to be the 'best linux' and so I wanted to use a traditional style of symbol to show power and strength, as well as the concept of the 'number one' linux.

PDExperiment626 wrote:

3. The downside of being more abstract is that it will take more time to catch on. Think of the Ubuntu logo; it's ubiquitous now even though it took some time to become popular. The counter-balance to the slower uptake is that the logo will have staying power regardless of how big arch gets.4. This is more of a side note. Using an equilateral triangle poses some challenges when it comes to scaling. Basically, the geometry relies on 30-60-90 triangles whose rasterization on smaller scales can distort the image. This may requires some pixel tweaking on the smaller scales to keep the logo rep true to its larger scale depiction. Cerise has handled this issue very nicely in her submission. If you use 30-60-90 triangles, this is something to keep in mind.6. The simplicity and readability (even on textures) of the logo lends itself to being put on any type of surface. For instance many people like putting Ubuntu's logo on naked bodies... this works well because the logo is readable on textures... this logo has the same property. While I'm not a fan of such images, they are popular with the target group of people you're trying to attract.

There are a couple of things I do to keep the symbol intact in small and even tiny sizes (I have now worked this in to microscopic 8x8 and 6x6 sizes for use in notification-type of symbols and the pkgbuild mimetype icon.) Tweaking an equilateral triangle to make sure that it scales correctly can be interesting work.

You're right about the abstract nature of the logo and how to 'spread the word' about it. I think that making many thematic elements, such as backgrounds, gdm themes, gtk themes, icon themes, special icons, and all kinds of assorted graphical paraphernalia is a good start. I'm half tempted to make a PR campaign of semi-naked women with the logo as a 'tattoo' or something like what ubuntu did in the warty warthog days with their 'naked people calendar backgrounds' to push the new design. I have many wallpapers and such that can be used in a PR-blitz of downloadable 'goodies' for people to have and share.

PDExperiment626 wrote:

5. The color scheme is very close to the current one. So the project will not have to go through the struggles of changing its colors in addition to changing logo.

This was one of the re-design principles I adhered to -- keeping some level of familiarity with a re-branding effort. If a project doesn't have a lot of money to spend, then something familiar in the new brand is easier for people to accept. This is the same reason the fedora people kept the blues they were using in their old logo. With that being said, however, I have created a full palette of colours that could be considered as an 'arch' palette when creating new things -- just like ubuntu and fedora -- which started with the particular hue of blue that arch is currently using and then building up the reds, yellows, greens, etc. from that one blue. Having a pre-defined palette makes it easier to create backgrounds, different versions of the logo, new colour schemes, etc.

PDExperiment626 wrote:

8. 'Free your computer' is a great slogan for this logo. Most people in the target market know about the movie 'the matrix'; this slogan ties into that mindshare while fitting into the feeling conveyed by the logo and ideas that make Arch a unique distribution. It's a simple, catchy and effective slogan. 9. I like the typeface. The letters are solid but have unique, extended curves that fit into the association arch linux has gained with actual arches. It's a simple, strong, yet distinctive choice of font.

Thank you very much. I love the idea behind arch linux -- that everything is vanilla and I add my own spices to the mix, if I want. When I started using arch, I really felt as if my computer had been freed of rpm issues, other distributions making heavily tweaked versions of user interfaces, environments, etc. I still feel like my computer is free to be exactly what I need/want. MKGrotesque is a well-designed font by one of the leading bauhaus-style font designers, Manfred Klein. It has a number of interesting features that I felt really enhanced the look I was going for.

PDExperiment626 wrote:

In my opinion, the reason why I like Cerise entry the most is that she's presented the whole package. No--a slogan, backgrounds, etc. weren't required for submission; but I like it when people go the extra mile to present their logo in a cohesive branding scheme. All elements of Cerise's submission compliment one another, there aren't elements that conflict with one another. In other words, the slogan, logo, backgrounds, and fontface all enhance a message of strength and dominance conveyed by a very unique design.

Thank you, again.I feel strongly that every presentation I make to any potential client should show the full range of what their branding scheme may look like, according to my ideas. It can be helpful for the decision makers to see a full portfolio and then ask for alterations or different perspectives.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

PDExperiment626 wrote:

1. Too complicated. Even though there are 4 arches, there are actually seven pieces for your eye to resolve in the negative space.2. Sharp points are too prevalent in the design; it scales poorly. That being said, freegeist has pixel-tweeked his submission so that his scaled version actually looks true to the larger size--a nice job.3. You can't put this logo on a black background and readily make out what it is. If it's scaled down on a black background you'll scarcely notice it let alone make out what it is. 4. I look at this and the first few things that come to mind a. a ribcage b. water waves (stretching on that one) c. series of mountains.None of these are very strong in my mind. Really though, this logo looks generic to me (personally, I'd expect to see this almost in a doctor's office... but that's more of a personal association).

1. It is easily possible to turn the logo into a positive one (see shot below) but I still believe that the negative one is more interesting2. It think the logo is still recognizable at 16x16, but you are right that it is not easy to create a logo that even works at that small sizes3. About the black background look at the shot below, I magnified the additional artwork part to show that this logo works in white and black too. Logo guidelines would allow this if that blue-green dominates the background. It may be possible to tweak the color a bit too make it lighter. I'm using a very good TFT and I don't how it looks on other displays.4. Nice associations: a. ribcage => strong but flexible (arches) b. water waves => dynamic, powerful and rolling c. mountains => rocksolid

...all work! Could be a nice idea for a campaign. Dark background, a simple Wave or a simple mountain and the message with a small logo (like the KISS wallpaper in my submission)...maybe I look into this later...

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

@Cerise, I'm glad you found my comments helpful. I think you have also put out a high-quality design and a well-crafted logo for your submission. I think it's impressive (for what it's worth).

@Freigeist I was trying to keep my critiques short and to-the-point, but I fear I have oversimplified my explanations of the associations made with your logo.

It is true, I think of ribcages, waves, mountains when looking at your design. That being said, you have added a layer of interpretation on top of those objects that aren't the psychologically strong ones. For example, let's say someone sees a ribcage in your design. Those ribs are open and exposed. The only time one sees such a scenario is in the context of some medical situation. That is why I made the comment that it seems like the logo would go in a doctor's office.

If I felt that the design conveyed the ideas of strength, flexibility, etc. I would have made that statement. When a design associates to an explicit object, that object can be linked to ANY thought or emotion when viewed the right way. That is why I think a strong level of abstraction away from tangible objects is important.

I hope this clarifies what I meant.

@iphitus

iphitus wrote:

Being able to draw... <snip> ...I can however point out that it may not work well though.

So, is submission now a requirement for critique on the forum? If not, then why are you asking for my submission?

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

PDExperiment626 wrote:

I was trying to keep my critiques short and to-the-point, but I fear I have oversimplified my explanations of the associations made with your logo.

It is true, I think of ribcages, waves, mountains when looking at your design. That being said, you have added a layer of interpretation on top of those objects that aren't the psychologically strong ones. For example, let's say someone sees a ribcage in your design. Those ribs are open and exposed. The only time one sees such a scenario is in the context of some medical situation. That is why I made the comment that it seems like the logo would go in a doctor's office.

If I felt that the design conveyed the ideas of strength, flexibility, etc. I would have made that statement. When a design associates to an explicit object, that object can be linked to ANY thought or emotion when viewed the right way. That is why I think a strong level of abstraction away from tangible objects is important.

I hope this clarifies what I meant.

I already understood what you meant because your message was not very subtle. Therefore I put an smiley in that line to express that I'm just kidding with your associations...but maybe you don't like or understand irony. Seeing an ribcage in the image and having bad associations is possible if you want to see it. It is also possible to see some abstract warning sign in cerise's design that reminds on radioactivity or biohazard, as well as it is possible to see a star trek sign in the current logo (or (remembering a discussion a few days ago) to even see vag1nas or p3nises in the submissions, if you prefer that example). If the majority of people looking at the sign think its an open ribcage than I agree, that my logo is not a good idea, even not for an doctor's office, because people prefer to think of healing and medicine and want to get positive associations and not think of something like an open ribcage when going to a doctor...therefore the doctor's PR campaign possibly won't attract many new customers...

I think iphitus feels a bit of what I feel...there is some arrogance in the air. Critics are important, yes, but there is one thing I learned in life, it's always important HOW you express your message. Unfortunately especially "geeks" tend to be arrogant to cover their own shortfalls...

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

Critiques are critiques. Arrogance has nothing to do with it; indeed, I have claimed nothing about myself. I have merely presented critiques on the designs put forward. What you read into them beyond the critique itself is a reflection on you, not the critique.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

I'm new to this community, so I'll try to briefly introduce myself in my firstpost.

I found GNU/Linux and the Free Software community around 9 months ago.I started with Ubuntu, but it's visual design didn't suit me, so it was soonwhen I switched to Xubuntu.

The look and feel of Xubuntu made me feel like I'm at home. The underlying"Ubuntu way" have served me way, but I wanted more. I wanted knowledge andpower. I wanted to learn.

It was 7-8 days ago when I found Arch linux.After lurking the forum and the wiki. Browsing the repository and the git one.Playing with Arch on my work and home machine. I've decided that I want to be apart of all this.

I want to share with you why I liked Arch, so much.I liked the main site, the design was simple, elegant and beautiful. Then Istarted reading some materials in the wiki. It was organized, the visual designwas consistent in every part of the site, which gave me the feel ofprofessionalism.

I wanted to point out that the design and how things are organized, how theideas and paradigms are presented is very important. If the Arch site wasn'tlike it is, I wouldn't bother to try Arch linux. And I'm not afraid of learningnew things and changing habits.

Because I'm new to Arch, it's very difficult to me to have a clear opinion aboutall these logo stuff, I would appreciate if you can point me to some informationabout:

How the current design of the site was made?

What's the status with the current logo and why is the need for change ?

Is this a plan to make Arch with it's own and consistent look and feel, likeother big distroes. Are we talking about GUIs only or what ?

I don't expect answers, if you can point me to some information would be nice.

PS. If you feel this post isn't suitable here, feel free to move it elsewhere.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

PDExperiment626 wrote:

Critiques are critiques. Arrogance has nothing to do with it; indeed, I have claimed nothing about myself. I have merely presented critiques on the designs put forward. What you read into them beyond the critique itself is a reflection on you, not the critique.

It's not what you say, but how you say it...as you may know it is not necessary to claim something about yourself to create an aura of arrogance, arrogance works much more subliminal. And this has nothing to do with your fair comments regarding my and other logos, which are appreciated (by the way...I'm just curious...is a critic the person who expresses a critique? And critics are a bunch of people who criticize? and what is criticism compared with critique?) I don't know if you have children but if you would, you should know that there are many ways to transport a message and some work, some not. Whatever, let's get back to topic...I know that my English is too bad to withstand in a psychologically discussion even if it may be interesting

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

@PDExperiment626Please do note the fact that people are starting to feel annoyed by your posts. Is it that hard to see? If you are unable to get your points accross in a different manner, then there is no point in you posting, even if your points are valid. And, no, submission was never a requirement. I think iphitus was simply aggravated by your posts.

As for scaling, my point is that TheBodziO's logo can be easily scaled down to sizes less than 16px. The fact that you may not see it doesn't make it impossible. People who've dealt with typography know this very well, and TheBodziO is one of them. Therefore I asked devs to consult with at least the authors, if not the broader artist community here, to see if the author simply did not have time to deal with scale-downs or the logo is truly impossible to scale down.

@iphitus, PDExperiment626Wife? Uh...

@evgeThe logo change was initiated by the hype created over Thayer's post. I think it is good that devs agreed to draw on that energy. That is always a beautiful think in open-source communites.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

Updated Alpha Sun with SP1. (If it doesn't show up in Opera, view only the image by getting the image URL and pasting that into address bar. Then hit refresh, and the image should update. Opera doesn't seem to update the images in the page when I hit refresh.)

* Changed the shape of the lower arc (rounded it a bit)* Rounded the tips of both arcs (made them a bit thicker, too)* Fixed the 16x16 and 22x22 scales* Fixed the dark b/g version* Fixed the color (changed it to Golden Poppy #FCC200; fixed the gradient so that the upper right edge of the circle is not lost on light bg; made it a bit more 3D)* Changed the logotype so that the logo would stand out* Created an Arch Emoticon character (there will be more of them)

I have documented the steps I took while i was fixing the logo, and will publish them on my blog when I get a chance.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

@iphitus

iphitus wrote:

You've made negative comments on everyone's logo's except those of your *wife* cerise. freigeist echos my thoughts, there is a bit of arrogance in the air.

No, I have actually made positive comments about several other submissions including cerise's. I also put negative critiques against Cerise's design. I am NOT voting on the designs, there is no conflict of interest posting critiques on a thread that has no bearing on the final decision.

YOU have no ground to argue a conflict of interest as you are pushing to submit as a decision maker.

As I have NEVER made any claims as to what I am, who I am associated with and what my relationships are; where do you get off breaking my right to privacy? It speaks volumes of you as person. You couldn't strengthen your argument to hold a conversation with me. No, you stooped to a personal attack.

Iphitus, you need to learn to respect issues of privacy on public forums. I didn't go posting informations about you all over these threads, when I was feeling emotional. I was wrong to think that you would have the intelligence and respect to acknowledge other's right to privacy.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

@PDExperiment626I could have dismissed iphitus' _wife_ comment as speculation if it weren't for your indirect confirmation. And since you confirmed, the conflict of interest is more than obvious. So please stop this before you make a fool of yourself.

It is you who needs to learn to respect the general mood of the community. You are annoying some people with your posts, period. Stop this before the thread is locked.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

PDExperiment626 wrote:

@iphitusIphitus, you need to learn to respect issues of privacy on public forums. I didn't go posting informations about you all over these threads, when I was feeling emotional. I was wrong to think that you would have the intelligence and respect to acknowledge other's right to privacy.

You can't get any lower in my book.

I'm not feeling emotional at all, I was hilighting your bias. And I really did want to see what you could create.

I did not post anything private, that information was passed to me, and is all over the internet. If you want to keep secrets, don't post them on blogs and flickr.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

foxbunny wrote:

@PDExperiment626I could have dismissed iphitus' _wife_ comment as speculation if it weren't for your indirect confirmation. And since you confirmed, the conflict of interest is more than obvious. So please stop this before you make a fool of yourself.

I am not in conflict of interest because I am not voting. I have critiqued all the designs I had looked at, all of them. To say that my critiques represent a 'conflict of interest' is to also say that your critiques as a 'professional' designer--WHO has submitted to this competition--ALSO represent a conflict of interest, if you would like to use that term. I believe the term you are looking for is biased, and I NEVER claimed to be unbiased. NEITHER can YOU, SINCE you have SUBMITTED.

foxbunny wrote:

It is you who needs to learn to respect the general mood of the community. You are annoying some people with your posts, period. Stop this before the thread is locked.

I am sorry that an honest critique in a discussion thread is what you consider 'annoying'. Perhaps this thread should lose the word 'discussion' and instead be called 'personal attack or reaffirmation time'. If you can find anywhere in my posts--regarding the submitted designs--that I have personally attacked a design (or the designer themselves), I will eat my words.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

iphitus wrote:

I did not post anything private, that information was passed to me, and is all over the internet. If you want to keep secrets, don't post them on blogs and flickr.

If that information was passed to you in private, WHY didn't you keep it that way? You are confusing the fact that I am not Cerise. I DO NOT have ANY such information posted on ANY of my personal websites.

Re: Arch Linux logo concept

iphitus and PDExperiment 626: When dealing with a long thread like this, its good forum etiquette to stay on the original topic or start a new thread. In this case, the discussion didn't need to be public at all.