The Days of Our Ridazz.

NOTE: All timestamps are in the future because WE are in the future. The care takers of Midnight Ridazz.com reserves the right to remove, edit, move or delete anything for any reason. None of the opinions expressed on these boards represent the Midnight Ridazz nor can anyone purport to speak on behalf of Midnight Ridazz.

"Creative sharpie tattoos have given way to repetitive penis drawings. Stenciling shirts on rides grew to just splattering the crowd with paint. Pizza box fires immediately stamped out by the masses have become burning piles of shopping carts. The F.U.N. that C.R.A.N.K. MOB, pizzawolf, and others brought to Midnight Ridazz has become self destructive. FUNarchist Bike Movement is reintroducing many classic LA bike culture rides to remind us of the fun of friends, biking, creativity, and being silly! And the excitement of getting people on bikes, exploring new places, and meeting new people. FUNarchist Bike Movement isnít about recreating the past. Itís about stepping back in line with a culture that has potential for growth. So that one day bikes can out number cars on the streets of LA. And we can all have Too Much FUN getting there. -FUNdictator 2012 PS. fuck bike time. Funarchist Bicycle Movement."

"Itís about stepping back in line with a culture that has potential for growth. So that one day bikes can out number cars on the streets of LA."

-What / who's culture do we speak of?
-And safe streets for whom?

Essentially, it would be nice to have some clarity on this continual attitude toward "other" behaviors. To keep reading and hearing this narrative over the years about a past time or a way of being, does not do justice to the racial and classist elements that existed at that time (and still do). Moreover, it doesn't account for the reality that a far more privileged group was condemning others (explicitly or not). In the past latin@s were targeted (eg Kushtown), many times indirectly and subtly, about their behavior. What has never been discussed fairly is how one group rarely did things that were substantively different than the other (pizza boxes vs shopping carts, really?); It just seems as if one behavior is sanctioned, so to speak. Many long-term respected ridazz have affirmed this sentiment off-line as it were. And here, again, we keep getting this point presented whether overtly or not, that we need to return to that "culture".

Was that past the golden age of inclusion and a high point for racial discourse nor acceptance / acknowledgment of white privilege in the bike scene? Has it ever felt like in order to have F.U.N. you had to be like such and such group. Many might not see the problem, but there is a real internalization that occurs when POC want to have F.U.N., in that we have to end up becoming like you. An image, way of being, was so hyped, pushed, presented and manufactured around town. It may not be as much of problem, except that the variations get relegated to not of the F.U.N. variety. It creates pressure none the less, and it pushes people to feel like they have to dress the part, etc. Over the years of watching POC mold themselves into that image, while this narrative was being kicked, had me wondering if the pressure to be included was part of it.

L.A., esp, Latin@ and black culture had an identity, we've been having FUN. We didn't need glitter, leotards, shaving cream, and tall bikes. Do your thing, but why continue to present it as if others have threatened your monopoly on F.U.N. And even more troubling is that it seems to be equated with culture. It seems unfair and alienating to suggest that there was a time when we we're ever in line with a "culture". Can that suggestion be offensive? Maybe cultures were ignored. If the FUNarchist qualm is valid and some culture was present, have we asked ourselves if there is a colonizing element in all this? Did we ask what the locals wanted? Did we do outreach? Or did we just take over the/their streets? And then,lets be honest, in many instances the local's behavior were condemned. Did we really try to understand others, or did we just act like they were wrong?

There is a strange relation to what has been occurring in the bike scene that seems to dabble in the area of that white savior mentality. Somehow we were going to bring the city what it has always needed -- "so that one day bikes can out number cars on the streets of LA". Clearly, you're just fighting for what they want, right? Clearly, not just what "you" think is good for them. I've wondered are we unknowingly pressuring a new culture upon some? Is there a colonizing element to that? Is there something wrong in that?

Again, what culture do we really speak of? And why is it worth saving? Why should we give a fuck about that culture? Did you give a fuck about other people's culture before you glittered bombed their neighborhoods? Or like the paint splattering jerks you speak of, are you just that former representation? Are they essentially burning pizza boxes at your front door? Your ability to push against that behavior is something of a privilege, to be able to commit oneself to massive amounts of rides, creativity, and leisure are privileges.You'll be able to counter the threats to "your" culture. Sometimes others only have the energy and privilege to adapt.

And sure, we all can grow, push ourselves, and aim for amazing new collective potential. Some will focus on burning pizza boxes, others might focus on shutting down the pizza industrial complex :P

GIVE PIZZA CHANCE

I'm saving this thread. A lot of good points were brought up but at the very least give the original poster a chance to respond, because, and this is really irrelevant, but he's been a pillar of "this" community, the Midnight Ridazz world, and a friend to you Mark for a few years, and your views align a lot more than just this thread would like to indicate.

respond to what?
I'm down with pizza.
Well, I guess I'd argue that I'm not sure pizza can be racist unless it had the power to benefit from its prejudices.

Whatevs, I debated about posting this but its been something some of us have been talking about for years. Posting as such doesn't make much of difference, this is really one small part of whats on my radar, whether people disagree or not. I think sometimes we need to acknowledge the multiple narratives.

I come to respect what the various groups have contributed. There are real challenges that I think would be unfair to ignore on all ends. Multiple narratives will tell a fuller story of what has happened in the past decade. This is just one part of them, that if no one else has reason to post or agree with, then, fuck it, I did. I know where it comes from and the many conversations I have had within the bike scene and outside.

To some the above might resonate to others it may not. The question is whether we can move forward to that potential collectively and in a way that is open to some of the realities outside the bike scene?

I mean if pizza is the end, then right on. This will just be added to the database for LAPD to examine.

I see your point and don't think you are completely wrong, but I also think boiling it down to "racism" (or even classism) is too simplistic. I think, amongst other things, there is also the tension between what is basically a "pop" culture vs. various subcultures....

If we're talking about what is going to get people out on bikes, big, flashy rides clearly are not the only (or necessarily even the best) way. But they are a way. Faster rides also do it. Nerdy rides do it. Stoner rides do it. Daytime rides by nonprofits do it. There are many ways. That each constituency thinks theirs is the best and natural way is just, well, natural. Otherwise they wouldn't do it that way.

As to which way is preferred or given dominance, well, the history of MR plays into that (it started as a "party ride"). As do a lot of other things -- including, yes, race, class, etc. But, in the end, the flashy rides have to be more flashy because, well, they are flashy rides. That's how they work. I don't value them more, personally, and given lackluster attendance lately I don't think other people do either. Many "big" rides are not much bigger than many "small" rides. They just sometimes still seem bigger because they are more flashy. Bigger isn't really better anyway (at least, not for the kind of riding I like to do).

That all being said, I don't live in a value-free world. I do think some actions are creative and some destructive. And I don't think it has anything to do with race; I can name rides led by either white hipsters or people of color that typify each extreme. And I think that is what Pizzadude was trying to get at. His particular examples might've been somewhat ill-chosen in this respect (though I must admit I didn't catch the references; I'm a bit out of the loop on who is doing what), and maybe it wasn't 100% innocently so. But I know that wasn't the intention.

Myself, when someone talks about the rise of destructiveness and divisiveness in the bike community these days, I certainly don't think of Kushtown (or whomever). My mind goes to the rise of the "bike punk" archetype, which I see as imported from other towns rather than homegrown and pretty boring creatively and culturally. I already know what it looks like. And their form of inclusiveness is indeed rather normative. I'm not trying to start any beef here, but that's my reading of it. Certainly, other people seem excited about all that. More power to them.

Really!

Because, in the end, I don't see it as an either/or but rather a both/and kind of situation. People should certainly be a little less quick to judge those different than themselves, and we can all (including certainly myself!) perhaps do a little better at that. But, at the same time, I think we can cut someone trying to do something ambitious here a little slack, can we not? I think he's trying to add to the options, not shut them down.

Ugh. Now I am feeling pretty much instantly bad about getting down on any particular group. Sorry about that. I guess I just see it a little bit like the situation with hardcore punk. It tends towards reduction and "purification" rather than expansion and inclusiveness. That doesn't necessarily mean its a bad thing, even though it is admittedly just not quite my bag. I dunno. I get on my high horse sometimes. In the end, my point was trying to be: do your thing.

just to note, I didnt use racism or say it boils down to classism, but I did say there were classist elements in the past. Also meant that in the past Kushtown was targeted. I think there are mistakes we made as a whole, or at least things we could have done better. I have no interest in shutting anyone down.

"Culture" is a loaded word. And most of my original post was asking about how we're supposed to think about that concept. How do we think about that concept given the realities of white privilege, class, and the like?

Its provocative, sure, but its not supposed to shut anyone down either.

If pizzadude wants to call it racism, that his use. Im not saying anything about racism.

Transplants are responsible (almost 100%) for the Leotardization(just made that word up I think) of bike rides in L.A., think about it.
Somehow they found each other, bought bikes at their nearest goodwill, and started throwing those glitter sprinkled rides(which I really enjoy every now and then). Again, think about it.
What's with burning shit, really? I never saw the point but, I guess some people think it makes them look cool or it goes with their homeless chic look(since bums set trash cans on fire on cold nights).
I can sense somebody coming back to L.A. to save us poor people from boredom.
Just my half a cent.

Well, you were the one who introduced the issues of race and class into the discussion. I assume this has to do with the examples he gave of what has replaced what he views as classic/valued bike "culture." I don't know what (if anything) specifically he is referencing when he talks about splattering paint or burning shopping carts or drawing penises, so I can't comment on the possible racist/classist judgments being made there.

Yet both because I have talked to him before about this and because of just how it read to me in itself, that didn't seem to be what he was doing. Rather, he was bemoaning what I agree is generally a lack of conceptual ambition in most rides today. Whether that is something to bemoan or not is definitely a matter of opinion. But I personally think its existence is a matter of fact. And it can be seen across races and classes (as can its opposite, when it appears).

And I am not sure where you are going with the argument that leisure is a privilege of the white man. Because, as you say, people of color were having fun before the white man came along with his glitter bombs (and which, ironically, is mostly associated in my mind with a specific woman of color).

So while I don't disagree that there are complicated issues of race and class tied up in Ridazz culture, I just don't see this specific series as particularly indicative of those problems. Again, possibly this is ignorance on my part. But it mostly seems like a negative reaction to an evangelical tone of delivery. And my point really was that that is just the typical tone for these types of events. Every big, crazy ride is the biggest, best, craziest ride ever. And that's cool, if that's what one wants. And it often seems like that is what people are most excited about. ("Exciting" things get people "excited.") But I don't think that is what people value most these days. So, yeah, the people (white or not) that organize these things DO have to make an argument for their relevance. That doesn't push other options to the side, necessarily. Nor is it a form of colonialism.

Listen, you brought up a point that I think is quite valid about the bike scene at large and I thought it deserved an earnest response. But really what I am saying is that I just think you do your argument a bit of harm by attaching it to this. I don't see it here. Sorry.

what triggered me to resist posting in the first place was that the use of "a culture" that has the potential for growth. Its as if the fact that we have so many more kids riding, pockets of small rides not even related to this site anymore on any given night.

And to posit this idea of "culture" is full of problems that I figured, fuck it, I'm going put this discussion out and see if it has a place in our scene.

JB, Let me also point out that like most attempts at challenging dominate culture we rarely have the recipe but rather tactics. Anyone who claims to have "the way" is suspect. However, there should be room for acknowledgment / room for issues like white privilege, class, and race. I mean, if FUNarchist is not just a play on (A), then there's usually room to acknowledge these issues in such circles.

On colonialism, there ways to colonize without militarism and there are ways we can push ourselves to think about the ways we can colonize given the ways, for example, we posit "value" on certain cultures and push for those we want to see more. Thats why i said, I wonder about this a lot, as a person within it. Maybe Im unfairly picking on a grammatical issue, but I do think that these issues are relevant in our scene.

I think we do more justice to honor that history presently, then to harken to a time where, like now, cultures were ridden through as if they were only backdrops to a more specific "bike culture".

So i want to add that even as a POC i have to understand how internalized white supremacy might affecting projects Im in, especially when I enter the world/areas of locals who are far more oppressed than me. Its not easy, but I think its a huge step if we acknowledge it and acknowledge it in our scene. Maybe our potential will go beyond just getting more folks on bikes.

maybe pizzadudes will find allies in the struggle if we continued to focus on the ways in which we reclaimed traffic space, and start to move beyond that in the way we think about punishment, justice, the police, and the state. We didnt ask them for our right to take to the streets, but still we ask them to exercise their monopoly on what is crime, punishment, and violence.

Just to clarify something and try to separate the larger part from, i guess, F.U.N. I don't think I said FUNarchist was or has been being racist or had classist issues. In my OP I was referring to the idea of going "back to a culture". I wondered, well, which one, and lets not forget we, as a whole, had other issues than ride style back then.

They/them/whoever they are create F.U.N and on that level, I'm not really interested; thats their speciality. They do it, and they figured out how to do it well. Anyhow, Im more interested in something outside pizzadudes. I think, maybe I'm wrong, we've reached a point where we can ask: what are we (group rides / bike culture/ pizzadudes) bringing into "communities"?

As one local union organizer told me about a different project, "there's a worry we're just eco-colonizing the area". There's a moral issue in the environmental movement that is very powerful. You have people who have a vision for sustainability, ecology, etc, that they believe due to its value and urgency, trumps the interests of residents. And some think that there is no social justice element in it, even though POC have largely been those destroyed in the process of destroying this planet. In short, they have control of a process that is large enough to fill their plate, so that they are able to ignore more the pressing needs of residents, which i think is to do that ecology trumps the past injustice to people.

Another extreme is the problem of trying to get people in other countries to care about the corporate issues while they're trying to avoid being killed. We have microcosms of that in our local communities. And i think it plays out when we treat the bike as an end and not as a tool.

Another aspect that was asked about is this idea of leisure and privilege. Again, in other circles (though I know it occurs here) we've talked in general about this Burning Man issue. Basically, a group of people invest months of energy and resources to pretty much party and develop their thing (culture?). Im not a burner, so i don't get it. Thats a sensitive issue, i know, because most really think they're doing something way more powerful in creating that way of life. Outside the philosophy of it all, when you have people in your communities struggling, this kind of activity and the resources poured into "that", starts to poke at the questions of: "what culture" and "for whom"? This is a kind of privilege many people i know could never take part in.

In a way, take that concept of a "Burner" and that whole movement, and imagined they collectively decided to just setup in some community and then claimed, "yo, we just want to talk and do bikes, bikes, bikes". As a resident it might not be unreasonable to think, well, I think you're bringing more than just bikes to the table.

With that, I think it can be harmful, in general, when we push for "a culture", and then posit that it is "that" culture, for whatever reason, has the potential for growth, even if that is limited to getting more people on bikes. Outside the quote from the profile, thats not an usual sentiment, so thats why I decide to use that instances to ask: what are we talking about in all this?

Overall, i think group ride are awesome, and great outreach tools; they bring people together. Are there ways we can be more conscious of that interaction with communities, in both what we can draw from it and acknowledge how we might be influencing it? It is here that I meant to say, I wonder if we could have done something differently in the past, and even now. With our various more community based regular rides, I think we get the community to show up. Its at that moment, I think we can error in trying to replace it with a different notion community, rather than finding out about the one we're in and trying to support that one.

As JB asked, well what can we do? I think we can start by asking our locals that question, or the people who show up to our rides. I think FMLY ride started along those lines, Im not sure where they're at now. But i recall they tried to find out about a community they were interest in first, and approached it as, "and we have this amazing bike thing we do, do you want us to do it here?". Maybe not that simple or accurate, but in a small way different than what we have done in that past, i think.

Multiple people have access to this account but I wrote that culture crap. It was meant to be followed by a list of rides we are hosting. I believe seeing that list of rides would answer your first question about culture. Your second question about safe streets is odd since I didn't mention that. Did you just copy/ paste an old writing? In any case, I withdraw my former statement and submit thisÖ
ďYo! Iím tired of leaving rides I co-founded because people are about to ruin my clothes/ costume by throwing paint or because I donít want to risk arrest for people making a stupidly big fire. Please cut that shit out on the rides Iím about to hostĒ.

Ps. FUNarchy has nothing to do with anarchy so we arenít ruining anarchy for anyone.

Given how this has triggered comments like 'white cheese is the right cheese', quit complaining, and no one gives a shit because we're busy having fun, I think it would be better to just be more straight-forward about what triggered the response to Funarchist making that statement.

The statement coming from this group was disappointing because I know that residents have given them a break as they've developed their style of culture within the neighborhood. I know theres a network within the Funarchist circle, so not everyone resides at the same place. Given what Im sure some of them already know about the parallels between Funarchist qualms toward those who might impose their kind of fun on its culture, and how folks in the community felt about the situation when they posted up in their hood, it just triggered, why would they keep saying stuff like that?

even if this refers to a conceptual art aspect, it already implies that the "bemoaning" is as if, for example, the increase of POC on bikes doing whatever they hell they want to do has no potential for growth. I wondered, does that mean the Ovarians have no potential or conceptual aspects in their rides?

Instead it is stated as if we're gonna get reminded what culture has potential from this group. Funarchist tried to diffuse the situation by suggesting its really just isolated to their rides and how people treat them. I guess that indignation is ok. But a different indignation is just complaining, calling people racist, and nothing to think about because people are too busy having fun. thats fine, i'll leave it alone from here on, i think I've said what I could to explain my part. i hope they have a successful series,they're really not my battle.

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In retrospect, I probably let my frustration get the best of me in the OP. I tried to present it more as "we", than "you", and I used "fuck" a couple times. I guess the tone was a bad move on my part. I had hoped it would have been a point to just give voice to some issues that exist in our communities and just ask if maybe we're making mistakes by trying to develop/posit culture/community within communities, and focusing on something we've tried calling bike culture/community. Moreover, why do we continue to create divisions when we know we have a strong influential voice?

The rise in what i think of as cyclist indignation has been something really strange to me. As an emerging powerful voice, ive been wondering if we could instead try to understand our communities better? Can we more intentionally help serve those community needs instead of the needs of a more abstract bike community? What kind of potential lies there? I think some are toying with that idea. The NELA art ride comes to mind, and of course Ovarians. But I lost that ability to have that conversation, and I'll accept that I screwed up.

I am still not sure what point you are trying to make, but I am now pissed off that you had to bring two amazing entities that did not ask to be included in your insane banter that tops crazy penis, poodles, and big fat gay al combined. Members of those entities, Ovarians Cyclists and Spoke 'n Art, did not ask to be included in this ranting of yours. So keep them out of it unless they speak for themselves.

You can whine about the angelopes all you want. That in itself amuses me. However, you just crossed the line by bringing something real into the discussion that did not ask to be there.

As you should well know by now, the Los Angelopes are just a figment of our imaginations. They post on facebook and go on trips to SF in the name of Ridazz without ever mentioning it here, except by "bikeowski" in last minute in attempts to find a ride. They don't really exist. Sure, you may see a posting for a ride once in a while that will invite the MR community at large into it's imaginary circle for a moment to share this elusive thing called "F.U.N." , but you won't remember anything the next morning. Furthermore, absolutely not one of them is a "P.O.C" as the "O.P." has most definitely differented himself as being one. Even though a lot of them happen to look Latino, African-American, or other minority races, they are merely the WHITE DEVILS that are plaguing the needs of the community bike scene at large... Just like BURNING MAN.

If the Ovarian Cyclists or the people who organize Spoke 'n Art have strong opinions or also agree that, "the FUNarchist postings on MR are non-inclusive and colonizing the culture of all the other bike communities", then please allow any of those members to do so on their own will.

Lastly, please shut the fuck up.

Thanks.

P.S. - I will take any criticisms of my post on another thread, email, phone call, or in-person discussion based on reality.

Iíve just been skimming but Iím confused by the talk of residents and communities not liking us but being accepting for now and us not being accepting of others coming into our group and having their fun. Am I reading that right? Do you even know who is posting this? Iíve started many of the paint fights. Iím asking myself to cut that shit out. And the other paint throwers know me and can throw paint on me if they donít like my statements. Have you really asked residents in my/our communities what they think? Because they are telling me differently. You question us (bikers?) even having a culture separate from everyone else then say we (bikers?) have a strong collective voice? I guess I shouldnít be skimming this if I actually want to reply. Try being even more straight forward(?).

First, thanks for replying. Ive been super worried after Joe's post that this was going into another direction.

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"Iíve just been skimming but Iím confused by the talk of residents and communities not liking us but being accepting for now and us not being accepting of others coming into our group and having their fun. Am I reading that right?"

No, im not saying that. Im not saying anyone is being excluded and unable to have their fun. I dont think Ive said people dont like you; you're obviously well liked. I think thats the positive aspect to this whole thing that Im trying to talk about--you have influence and draw power. As such your statements have that much more potential weight to influence others and how they perceive themselves and other groups.

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"Do you even know who is posting this?"

Let me point out that I could have made a huge mistake in my last post by, yes, assuming that I know you, or who you are. I tried to avoid that assumption throughout but I felt really pressured by some of the responses to give a better idea of why i was triggered by you. I was hoping to just isolate my personal experience, and just take the statement as something in itself. But again, it was never really supposed to be about you. Can i take a step back then and just accept that I fucked up in that assumption? And in that way, I apologize.

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"Iíve started many of the paint fights. Iím asking myself to cut that shit out. And the other paint throwers know me and can throw paint on me if they donít like my statements"

At this point I understand that there can be this more self-referential, or isolated play on the statement, thats why I felt like I wasn't trying to talk about you specifically. I did have to admit why it triggered me. In a way it doesn't matter whether "you" said it or not. i was trying to get past that and say, its a kind of an attitude or sentiment that seems to be playing out in other areas.

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"Have you really asked residents in my/our communities what they think? Because they are telling me differently."

im not sure what this refers to. I dont doubt people affirm or like what you do. As I said, you do that stuff well. I guess what Im suggesting is that when something amazing comes to town, it easy to see how people can love it. Im not questioning that. Im wondering whether that appreciation can keep us from asking whether we're understanding the value of the other cultures we're influencing, and if we might be (indirectly) changing them.

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"You question us (bikers?) even having a culture separate from everyone else then say we (bikers?) have a strong collective voice? "

yes, Im saying that we're creating a bike culture that has a strong collective voice. And I tried to piggyback off your claim about culture and potential. My worry is that "a" culture can be built and then placed into communities. It doesnt happen in a vacuum, i get that.

Here's an example that i think makes sense. Take some of the more recent developments with cyclists approach to police treatment and the indignation it arouses at times. It comes across as something new for some (how could you treat us this way?), when underprivileged communities have been experiencing that kind of treatment (and worse) for a long time.

Now, what worries me in that, is that our new found voice is used to help get our way, so to speak. So that when bones are thrown our way, we think, "yay, bike community progress, thanks for the support pd". But what happened to the realities that occur outside our "bike community", so to speak?

It can get complicated more so by the emerging voices and what communities and backgrounds they come from, so that as advocates or whatnot are also projecting a reality that is not inclusive of another's. Hence, if we move forward given a more class based reality (im not trying to argue what that is here) or lets say culture, and have a small empowered group making decisions for multiple communities, then are we dabbling in a kind of colonizing?

Whats tricky is that bike community, so to speak, doesnt emerge from some void. Its a collective, i think, of various community members. It seems to be taking on a kind of shape however, that dominate voices can win out, and dominate "cultures" can win out. In that way, I would rather us given us the new level of empowerment, try to talk about the ways we might be playing into dominance--again, your statement.

If that fair?

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"I guess I shouldnít be skimming this if I actually want to reply. Try being even more straight forward(?)."

I tried to note that my frustration probably got the best of me in the OP. And its not just frustration with what you said, but what I feel is going on at times that has nothing to do with you. I cant be any more straight forward regarding you because its not about you in any more way than Ive pointed out.

Mark, your tone is not what makes your posts problematic, and neither is the frustration that may drive it. The problem is that you are trying to take some really complex and sometimes contradictory social facts and cram them into a by-the-numbers Victim Studies 101 framework. And if generating narratives is your actual project, this may work for you; but as a way to actually understand any of it it's doomed to fail. This is where critical thinking comes in. I hope.

I think you're misinterpreting the pizza box and shopping cart. From what I see of FUNarchist's profile they just want to stop the escalation of getting more and more destructive and get back to presenting more fun to those who travel the streets of SoCal. It's all good from what I see.

I can't speak for FUNanarchist but I believe by culture they mean an all-inclusive bike community, and not just with regards to race, religion, social status, etc, but also all-inclusive for the various sub-cultures of cycling. Bringing back old rides of various speed and length is why I figure that.

And, clearly, safe streets for ALL. I don't see any hint of exclusions there.

Mark's not trying to lead shit, he's just OPENING HIS MOUF. Even FUNarchists themselves have come in to try and understand. Working towards an understanding is good thing. Dismissing Mark's statement as bullshit, is bullshit. Mark has some valid points that he wants to bring to attention. And dismissing these things is what IS ALREADY HAPPENING, and is exactly why he's bringing this shit up. His concerns are real, whether you like them or not. Agree with them, or not, he's not fabricating the bullshit he sees, like Loser1 did all the time.

On the contrary, Dak, some of his concerns are very likely imaginary--in more than one sense of that word. And if he presents them as facts, he and they will be rebutted just as they ought to be. Dot Com.

Bullshit. You can't tell someone how they see the world. Their perception is just as legitimate as anyone else. I just happen to agree with his concerns because I see them myself. Is it because we're drinking the same truth juice? I want to know where you get your rose colored punch.

I can't? Not even when they're adumbrating their view of the world right in front of me, and doing so in a way that seems to invite discussion--like, let's say, doing it in an Internet discussion forum? Not even then?

Their perception is just as legitimate as anyone else.

Well, that seems to contradict everything I've ever observed, heard, or read about human nature, but I'll bear that in mind next time I'm trying to debate a flat-earther about geography.

I don't understand the anger in response to Mark bringing up Spoken Art and the Ovarians. Both make a point of interacting with the community, and the Ovarians make a point of providing to the community, participating in the communcity, and that's a good thing...which is the only reason they were brought into the conversation.

I'm happy Mark brought up this conversation, although it may be misplaced as a direct response to FUNarchist. As someone pointed out, it's not a new conversation, but it's always a valid one. Just because we are a subculture that likes to think of itself as challenging mainstream culture doesn't mean we don't unwittingly fall into certain dominant culture-dictated patterns.

The one challenge I have for Mark is this: Why does every bike ride have to necessarily interact with a particular neighborhood or community? As long as a ride or a group of ridazz is not doing the neighborhood or community harm - which is in and of itself a complicated conversation, especially when you speak of things like gentrification or like being a tourist in/through a "different" community - isn't it okay that a ride is just a ride? Despite what MR says, every time we get on a bike, especially in groups, it's absolutely a political statement, and one which I wholeheartedly support. (As long as there's no glitter.)

No, you can't. You rather poke holes in writing style and technique, rather than come up with facts backing up your own beliefs. My points stand, though I could have been more elaborate and comprehensive. But then again, some smart-ass will just criticize the wordiness.

And yes, you rather belittle a flat-earther's belief with condescending bullshit than actually prove the world is round.

Can't win with someone always trying to win. I thought this was a discussion.

"privileging onegroup and their type of fun over another group and their type offun isdead on."

Anyone want to challenge thisor are we done here?

There's nothing there to challenge, yet. It's difficult to write a thoughtful rebuttal to a string of postcolonialist buzzwords. Perhaps md2 would be kind enough to tell us exactly *what* sorts of Other fun he believes are being marginalized , so that we can meaningfully get on to the whethers, hows, and whys?

If you are asking me to explain, I would be happy to. One example is precisely the example that FUNarchist brought up: One of the Westside rides culminated in burning shopping carts. Many of the rides involved throwing copious amounts of glitter that will run into the ocean. Many of the rides involve tagging. But these rides are held as bastions of FUN, whereas the Kushtown ridazz were regularly referred to as thugs or described using other barely-hidden racialized language.

Happy to discuss further, but I would prefer not to be responded to with the same sarcasm as Mark was or dismissed as too simplistic. If you disagree with me, please engage me with respect and as an equal.

FWIW, the only thing I give a shit about in the list of things that have happened on the Westside rides is the stupid ass glitter. The only reason I would potentially care about tagging or burning the shopping carts would be the potential to affect others on the ride by attracting the attention of the cops.

I'm asking Mark to provide examples, not of privileged fun but of Other(ed) fun. And, come to think of it, to give us his thoughts on how that sort of fun ought to be regarded, by the "privileged" or anyone else.

But since you brought it up, I disagree with your assertion that tagging, setting shit on fire, and leaving party favors behind are really held up as "bastions of FUN," or even that they're mostly seen positively by people in The Bike Scene other than the ones doing them. As far back as the early C.R.A.N.K. Mob rides,that sort of thing was being called out and criticized--sometimes right here in the (then very much alive) MR forum. And (granted, this is just anecdotal, but) when I hear about those kinds of things occuring on popular rides, it's rarely in the context of "did you hear, it was so awesome" but rather "this is why I/we don't go on party rides anymore."

I got the sense that Borfo was challenging my statement, so I wanted to add some more detail for him.

I'm not trying to be absolutist, I understand that there were challenges to the Westside rides. However, I stand by my comparison of the overall acceptance of one group / rides / fun as compared to another.

I don't think every ride needs to. As I mentioned to JB earlier in the discussion, I think there are different tactics. And yes, if anything I hope that one day Roadblock will just finally change the "Ridazz is" to include protest and political.

Generalizations are slippery. Period.
Generalizations about any group will have exceptions ... and more often than not. The generalizations about standout behavior always come down to a minority of individuals engaging in behavior that lots of lazy people prefer to conflate with the unremarkable behavior of the larger group.

While I have attended way fewer rides than many of you I have "tasted" all sorts of rides and have experienced them from many different perspectives.

I have seen just about everything on bike rides and parties with people who I ride bikes with. I've seen or been close to, every negative, hedonistic, stupid, and childish behavior mentioned above. And 99% of the time, it is a minority of people engaging in those activities. Often a very small minority. Yet whatever the the group, club, organization, class, age group, etc.. most people prefer to make generalizations and believe them.

I think its in our nature to stereotype and make generalizations about groups.
Its a short hand that helps us filter lots of information and make quick decisions without knowing an individual first hand.

Even though we all know at this point, and every person is an individual, Regardless of race, class, religion, job, sex, orientation, privilege, appearance, uniform, politic, ability, etc etc etc...

Even the most bigoted, chauvinistic person will admit that they have met somebody that defies the stereotype they hold on to.

Individuals as a whole are super fucking unique and complex and there is always much more below the surface than we time, energy or mental capacity to acknowledge.

The demographic of the Ridazz Cuture has expanded and evolved to be much more reflective of LA as a whole, and in that, has absorbed some of the very tensions, problems, and challenges of race, class, and privilege present in the larger culture.

Its an incredible opportunity for us, to continue to sustain, grow, and continue to inspire a social movement around bikes.

or it can be an opportunity to calcify previously held beliefs by continuing to generalize people as groups to avoid knowing them as individuals.

The choice is up to us. Whatever happens here eventually is by our collective doing as we engage in public events, those that show up, participate, and set the tone, will be the ones that set the direction for our grow and/or demise.

=

That said, Its fucking RAD that FUNarchist is dumping energy into creating rides that seek to emulate the FUN and energy that inspired so many people to fall in love with riding a bike in the city. The poof will be the response and execution but I am really excited about the prospect.

And obviously a nerve has been struck somewhere in here which can only be a good thing for waking up the sleeping giant.

ride around....find a lone cyclist...yell "FRIEND FRIEND FRIEND"....introduce ourselves, escort that person to their destination and try to recruit them for future rides...pretty simple concept....whoever leads this....please do it old school style....no hijinx, no bullshit...just riding and escorting.....

We must hangout with different people then: "And (granted, this is just anecdotal, but) when I hear about those kinds of things occuring on popular rides, it's rarely in the context of 'did you hear, it was so awesome' but rather 'this is why I/we don't go on party rides anymore.' "

I've heard some might proud recounting of incidents mentioned or hinted at in this thread.

I'd say self-policing is important if we want sustainability, I've done it and may have to do it again. Vandalizing things is not proactive.

As far as deeper cultural and social ramifications in regards to organized bicycle rides/events I'm fuzzy on that one. I never felt like any groups was being excluded except all those "fixed only" rides, well no I take that back there was some Star Bellied Sneech antics I've seen here and there it can't be helped though, it's people. However, the bicycle scene or movement or what ever you want to call it has come from nothing to something huge in what 10 years or so? More good than bad out there that's for sure.

I'm just saying I'm pro bike and pro fun and pro pizza, sometime all at once.

Nothing against self-policing insofar as it reimagines how to deal with such issues without resorting to the same institutions.

Not saying people are excluded from rides (though it has happened, but why are we obligated, ya know?).

Recycling bottles and cans with a shopping cart and a cape, isnt too different than no cape. Sometimes we just need to recognize and respect that some have been doing that way before it was turned into an artform. Though it empowers one group, another group still has no idea that the world has even changed in that regard. Sometimes we just give voice to what others have and are doing, and remind that "they" too have had potential, and will grow, and will not always be ignored.

The bicycle may be a revolutionary act for some of us, but for others its just how its always been. Straight-up, Im down with pizza and doing crazy shit in the sewers and such, who hasn't wanted to be a Ninja Turtle?

PC, what if the conversation is more about acknowledging a kind of experience? And rather than who is right or wrong, how can we move forward acknowledging those experiences without dismissing them? Its not like we're dealing with issues that require major intervention (like rape).

no doubt Im partial to viewing the world from a particular framework, but in this case, yes, Im only referring to a narrative, and not making an argument. As I noted multiple narratives will help tell the full story. As of now, the environmentalism (w/o social justice) + class/privilege reality = eco-ing our society, seems to be playing out in a way that largely dismisses, in short, the indigenous realities.

Instead it reaffirms and empowers the people who benefited from the injustice without addressing those who were abused the most.

I want to infuse the social justice element in it, not to exclude those from other class or privilege, but so that they can acknowledge it, and try to make choices accordingly. You might not believe how often, directly, and explicitly that is resisted.

Asking for permission is a delicate issue but can work out very well if proposed right. Also getting everyone on the same page before you ride out has helped FMLY RIDE. This, of course, won't work for everyone since FMLY RIDE is more specific to FMLY principles. We are always here to help others with their rides too though.

PC, what if the conversation is more about acknowledging a kind of experience? And rather than who is right or wrong, how can we move forward acknowledging those experiences without dismissing them?

Then it would make it all the more important that the "kind of experience" about which we're having the conversation be brought to the front and center of that conversation. Perhaps with...oh, I don't know...examples, hypothetical or otherwise? Because I think the only thing about the conversation so far that is perfectly clear is this: nobody actually knows what the fuck we're supposed to be talking about. And now that you seem to have reconsidered whether this thread was the place to start it, we don't even have FUNarchist and his/her expressed worldview to use as a point of reference. So, I mean, we're really adrift at this point. Help us out.

In the quote you replied to, I used "conversation" specifically about the example Stephanie brought up.

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Bike culture / community - does it exist? If it does who is part of it, who is not (yet), but who is it for? What is the scope of it?

Here are three, hopefully PC worthy, topics that I think are playing out around us. Again, as a new influential voice, can the bike community have a stronger aspects toward thinking about these issues (not every f-ing group needs to). But it seems fine to at least talk about it?

1) day-laborer cyclist. They ride for many reasons we dont. Where do they fit into bike culture? When we "find" them and invite them into our "community"/ "culture", what does that mean for them? Is our only role to facilitate bike rides and space to work on their bike? but if we claim they are part of our community, what about their other needs?

2) bike infrastructure/advocacy. Yes, everyone needs safer streets/ healthier communities, and some more than others. But how do you make communities safer without attracting people who otherwise didn't want to live there because it was less safe? How much of a role do residents have in that development? Who are making the decisions for those communities? progress in eco-ing neighborhoods seems good, but who gets to keep it in the long-run?

3) Eco-culture itself and bike culture within it. This area creates a lot of infuriating aspects as it relates to (1). You get eco-events etc that play into this talk about ecology as a strong moral issue, which it is. Who really benefits from that "moral" and "social" empowerment? Do the people that pick up your metal, cans, bottles, cardboard, etc get to feel like they're amazing contributors to society? Do they feel revolutionary? What is their experience? Are they even acknowledge or included? Are they talked about as highly as others? More importantly, do they get to help develop the culture or will they just watch the world change around them?

"Bike culture / community - does it exist? If it does who is part of it, who is not (yet), but who is it for? What is the scope of it?"

There are multiple bike cultures in Los Angeles, and while they sometimes overlap, they are still distinct. There's the late night social party ride culture (aka the midnight ridazz), the roadie culture (Velo La Grange, L.A. Wheelmen, etc.), the utility / necessity cyclists (the bike commuters, the day laborers, etc.), the bike advocate culture (LACBC, Bikeside, etc.), the bike co-op culture (Bikerowave, Bike Kitchen, Bike Oven, Valley Bikery, etc.), the community cycling groups (the East Side Riders, Yo! Watts, etc.), and many others, all with different plans and goals.

Who is part of it? Who is not? Who is it for?

As far as I know, all of these organizations are open to anyone who wants to participate. If people are excluded, it's often due to miscommunication / oversight rather than intent. This may be because there is no single hub for all of these different communities. Maybe this would be an interesting project for someone to take on, as MR probably isn't the appropriate forum for that.

As for the eco-aspect, we ALL benefit from the moral / social good that is encouraging masses of people in the second largest city in the country to move, explore, recreate, commute, under THEIR OWN power, instead of driving around in vehicles that pollute the air and funds plutocrats and tyrannies and terrorists. Obviously, the bicycle is not a one-size fits all solution for every social ill, but in terms of allowing people to get around and have fun in a healthy and relatively non-destructive manner, a bike is a pretty good option.

MR is primarily about having fun on bikes.

If you want to advocate for change, there are plenty of other community organizations / coalitions that can help with that, but in terms of providing a community that's open to just about everyone regardless of race/class/color/creed/age/sex/orientation/etc., for fun night-time bike rides, the midnight ridazz have done a pretty good job. If you don't see a ride you like, it's not that hard to click the "add a ride" button at the top and add one that meets your needs.

The great thing about the midnight ridazz community is that EVERYONE is free to step up and help develop the culture they want to participate in.

If you want to be part of a larger community that's more than just goofing around on bikes at night, that deals with the challenges faced by L.A.'s communities, you can join any number of other groups (LACBC's "City of Lights" program is dealing with day laborer cyclists specifically), or you can click over to http://www.forumotion.com/ or any number of other places offering free forum websites and start your own.

" in terms of providing a community that's open to just about everyone regardless of race/class/color/creed/age/sex/orientation/etc., for fun night-time bike rides, the midnight ridazz have done a pretty good job."

hence my continual support and affection for MR. I dont talk to any of you about this on FB. I keep it real, suckas. I put there for the shit talking, vulnerability, and chance to wrong and all; I dont need facebook to save me from sack or crack or a crazy penis.