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JO logged NCAA levels of PT his 4 years in Portland. He wasn't even a bust, he was a high school kid they didn't need right away because they had a crazy deep frontline.

They were fools to give up on him when they did because he DID NOT IMPROVE his Per36 that first year in Indy (not dramatically at least), he simply played more minutes.

Regardless, JO's playing time with Portland (458, 808, 310 due to lockout, 859 = 2435) is LESS than West's playing time at Xavier (970, 978, 1094, 1168 = 4210). West played 126 games, JO played 210. So in terms of travel he had more of it, but he was sitting A LOT more per game than West was.

West has 20491 NBA minutes played, JO has 25951. But that includes all of JO's post-HS minutes. If you add in West's Xavier minutes then he's just behind JO at 24701, which is about half an NBA season worth of play. JO has had injury issues, but West had his own very serious injury which he just recovered from.

And yet at TJoe points out, even JO of 2-3 years ago didn't look at good as West does right now. And on top of that we've never heard West talk a bunch of nonsense about his own pending domination and we'd all be shocked if a story came out where West was ripping into Vogel or Shaw in an office someplace. Contrast that with JO making news for at least the 2nd time in his career thanks to an over-the-top shouting match with a team authority figure (coach, GM, whatever).

Good points. I hate being a JO apologist but here I go again. You really cannot compare the minutes and games played that David West and JO have logged in their careers. Seventeen years of professional basketball is a really long time. You can't compare college years with pro years even if he didn't log a lot of minutes in his first 3 seasons. With all the offseason summer leagues, practices, shoot arounds, traveling, and games envolved it just doesn't compare to the NBA. Those first 4 years of JOs career were much harder than David West's 4 years of college ball.

Secondly, he's had way more injuries than David West. JO's had shoulder surgery, at least 2 knee surgeries (one with the Pacers and one with the Celtics that I could confirm) and left wrist surgery last year. I think the biggest mistake he made was trying to play through that knee injury during the year after the brawl. If he had just had surgery on his knee then instead of trying to play the next year and a half through the injury he might have been more effective. Still 3 years ago, since you brought it up, he averaged 13.6 points, 7.0 rebounds, and 2.0 blocks with the Heat. Those numbers are better than David West's averages from last year.

Even with all the injuries and baggage, he's a decent backup Center that hasn't missed many games this year due to injury.

PPG RPG BLKPG PER
6.4 4.1 1.2 15.62

Compare that to Ian Mahinmi:

PPG RPG BLKPG PER
5.3 3.9 1.0 11.56

Compared to Tyler Hansbrough:

PPG RPG BLKPG PER
6.5 4.1 0.3 14.10

There's not a lot of difference between those players but I think JO could easily take on Tyler's role alongside Mahinmi and improve our bench defensively. If it doesn't happen, I don't really care but if we swapped JO for Tyler I don't think we'd miss a beat and we might be slightly better.

With all the offseason summer leagues, practices, shoot arounds, traveling, and games envolved it just doesn't compare to the NBA.

And you think that doesn't happen for college players, or something?

I would bet that NBA players practice less than college players, because of how many more actual games they play. Basketball is a full time job for college players, and most good high school players. The NBA hardship hasn't really changed all that much. Players are breaking down much easier/faster, not because what they go through in the NBA, but because of what they go through to get to the NBA. AAU is probably the biggest reason for it all, because of how many games you play.

Playing 6-7 games in a weekend takes a toll on your body, even as a 17year old. I cannot express just how god awful it really is to go through. Playing is the best thing in the world, what comes after is the worst. I'm not even 27 yet, and I crack everytime I get up out of a chair. It really does take a toll.

West wasn't a big time AAU player, which is probably a reason why he's much healthier later in life. That and no one can question the manner at which he takes care of himself phsyically. You can just look at him and know he treats his body like a temple.

I loved JO, and still love what he brought to this franchise. Minus the bickering and the fake tough guy act.

I will admit, though, I was leary when he traded for JO (and I loved both Davis brothers, though I like Antonio more then Dale back then) and I can understand where people did not have a lot of confidence in his game.

That said, and as much as Peck does not want to admit it happened, JO had an AMAZING year the year he was in MVP contention, and he finished the year off showing the characteristics one would want in a leader by shooting those FT's hoping to come back in the game.

It is just a shame his contract did not work out, and IMO that is just as much his fauly as it is TPTB

Good points. I hate being a JO apologist but here I go again. You really cannot compare the minutes and games played that David West and JO have logged in their careers. Seventeen years of professional basketball is a really long time. You can't compare college years with pro years even if he didn't log a lot of minutes in his first 3 seasons. With all the offseason summer leagues, practices, shoot arounds, traveling, and games envolved it just doesn't compare to the NBA. Those first 4 years of JOs career were much harder than David West's 4 years of college ball.

Secondly, he's had way more injuries than David West. JO's had shoulder surgery, at least 2 knee surgeries (one with the Pacers and one with the Celtics that I could confirm) and left wrist surgery last year. I think the biggest mistake he made was trying to play through that knee injury during the year after the brawl. If he had just had surgery on his knee then instead of trying to play the next year and a half through the injury he might have been more effective. Still 3 years ago, since you brought it up, he averaged 13.6 points, 7.0 rebounds, and 2.0 blocks with the Heat. Those numbers are better than David West's averages from last year.

Even with all the injuries and baggage, he's a decent backup Center that hasn't missed many games this year due to injury.

PPG RPG BLKPG PER
6.4 4.1 1.2 15.62

Compare that to Ian Mahinmi:

PPG RPG BLKPG PER
5.3 3.9 1.0 11.56

Compared to Tyler Hansbrough:

PPG RPG BLKPG PER
6.5 4.1 0.3 14.10

There's not a lot of difference between those players but I think JO could easily take on Tyler's role alongside Mahinmi and improve our bench defensively. If it doesn't happen, I don't really care but if we swapped JO for Tyler I don't think we'd miss a beat and we might be slightly better.

It's a moot point regardless. JO's knee woes had more to do with genetics and less about supposed "mileage". Just like in the case of Brandon Roy, Jonathan Bender, Chris Webber, etc.

West had his own knee problem but that was because of a bad physical injury, not because of developing scar tissue/drainage or degenerative knees.

I mean using that logic, David Ortiz kept himself in better shape than Don Mattingly, different sport but still.

It's a moot point regardless. JO's knee woes had more to do with genetics and less about supposed "mileage". Just like in the case of Brandon Roy, Jonathan Bender, Chris Webber, etc.

West had his own knee problem but that was because of a bad physical injury, not because of developing scar tissue/drainage or degenerative knees.

I mean using that logic, David Ortiz kept himself in better shape than Don Mattingly, different sport but still.

Good points. A lot of people don't recognize that about him. I've never seen a man his size with such skinny legs. He has legs like Hakkim Warwick and an upper body like Kendrick Perkins. He put on weight so that he could play Center and it really hurt him in the long haul. I'm always haunted by the thought of whether or not if the Pacers had kept Brad Miller things would've been different for JO. Oh well, you can't live off of what ifs.

Regarding the dust up in Phoenix... it looks like several people are upset with the Alvin Gentry firing and hiring of Lindsey Hunter. Dan Majerle and Elston Turner both left the team unannounced after Lindsey Hunter was hired. They literally stopped coming to practice. It seems there are several people upset with the "mutual" split with Gentry and with the GM Lance Blanks.

Blanks chose Hunter over Suns assistants Dan Majerle and Elston Turner, among others. Neither Majerle nor Turner showed up for any of the practices since Hunter was hired. Majerle, a former Suns star player and one of the most popular sports figures in the Phoenix area, has let it be known he won't be back. Turner is a highly-respected assistant who has interviewed for at least four NBA head coaching jobs, including the one in Phoenix when Mike D'Antoni left for the New York Knicks. Turner almost certainly has left his Suns job for good, too.

After practice on Tuesday, Hunter said he wasn't sure of the status of Majerle and Turner but he certainly spoke as if he knew they wouldn't be rejoining the team.

"I understand their situation,'' Hunter said. "As an aspiring coach this is what you want to do in life and it's disappointing when you don't get an opportunity. I definitely understand and my heart goes out to both of those guys and I wish them the best in whatever they do next.''

Igor Kokoskov, a Suns assistant who also was interviewed for the interim job, will be Hunter's lead assistant.

"He's more of the opposite of me. He's an offensive guy,'' Hunter said. "We need those guys, unfortunately, in basketball. You need an offensive guy. I'm a defensive guy. So it's sort of balanced.''

Other than that, Hunter wasn't sure which of the remaining personnel would be on the bench as assistant coaches in Sacramento.

"We're just trying to get some stability and find out what's what,'' Hunter said, "and all of those things will be hashed out.''

Phoenix also didn't have center Jermaine O'Neal in practice on Wednesday. Hunter said he didn't' know why, but that it was a medical condition. It's common knowledge that O'Neal didn't think much of the coaching change.

Jermaine was never the same after he had to bulk up and play center. His knees couldn't take it. Its ashame because he was such a great player before the injuries. I still have my JO jersey and will never get rid of it. He's my second favorite Pacer of all time behind Reggie.