Just to check on real life differences between a PLB with GPS and without I sent an email to AMSA with the following reply(submitted with permission from Linda)Quote...

Hi Vern,

Your enquiry has been forwarded to myself to respond as I receive these enquiries everyday.

The best accuracy the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system can relay is 120mtrs. The GPS chip inside the beacon may have an accuracy of 45/60/100 mtrs etc. however when the system receives the distress message and relays it the accuracy is 120mtrs. This is very good compared to the analogue system of 20kms.

We do recommend the GPS equipped distress beacons however they are a higher cost. When a GPS beacon is activated it is detected within a few minutes, the RCC will receive the HEX ID and the GPS coordinates within 120mtrs.

When a Non-GPS beacon is detected within a few minutes the RCC will receive the HEX ID but no position details. The position is calculated by a Polar Orbiting satellite which averages an overpass over the Australian SAR region every 90mins or max. 5hrs. When the first position report is received we receive two positions; A and B. One is the true position and the other is the mirror image. To confirm which is the true position we can await for the satellite to overpass a second time or an overflying aircraft may report into air traffic control the hearing of 121.5 MHz in a particular area or the emergency contacts can provide information as to the region the owner is operating in.

In order to deploy a search & rescue platform or personnel we require the location/area/region of the distress. The sooner we know the location of the distress the quicker we can organise the rescue deployment. A GPS equipped beacon is the quickest way to advise the RCC of the location of distress. Please note even though the distress alert is received within a few minutes, it can take some time to coordinate a rescue platform, this can be affected or delayed by; day or night, weather conditions, strong winds, fog, low cloud, helicopter/vessel/personnel availability to respond in the area etc. It is important the person in distress maintains there survivability until the rescue crew are on scene.

Remember: Do not turn the beacon off until the rescue crew advise to do so, just because you may see the rescue crew in the vicinity does not mean that they have seen you.If you wish to discuss further please contact me, I'm happy to assist with any enquiries or product details.

One thing I forgot to mention is that when a beacon is detected we always contact the owner and then the emergency contacts immediately to confirm if it is an inadvertent activation or a live distress. If the owner answers the phone it is usually a false alarm of which we request the owner to locate the beacon and switch off.

If a beacon owner feels that the beacon may have inadvertently activated they can call the RCC directly on Ph: 1800 641 792. There is no penalty, we appreciate the call to confirm all is safe & well.

G'day Adam,I've just started to think about whether the SPOT would be a better thing to go for - it lets you call for help, locates your position and allows you to send messages to your panicking spouse which is more likely to be required than an emergency beacon. The only catch I can see is the price of the service plan, but we often pay more than this for normal phones. What are yours and others thoughts?

Devon Annie wrote:G'day Adam,I've just started to think about whether the SPOT would be a better thing to go for - it lets you call for help, locates your position and allows you to send messages to your panicking spouse which is more likely to be required than an emergency beacon. The only catch I can see is the price of the service plan, but we often pay more than this for normal phones. What are yours and others thoughts?

My thoughts are that if I was considering SPOT, I would spend the extra and get an Iridium sat phone.

the spot is an awesome unit. and great for walkers. However its not a replacement for a PLB. You use the spot constantly and run the risk of flat batteries. I would not rely on one solely for emergency use. It is better than nothing though and its infinitely cooler than a PLB in its tracking features

battery is my main concern. Its a device you turn on and drain the batteries on. IF you activate its constant paging function then forget about it I see there being a risk of flat batteries when an emergency occurs. If you believe you are walking in areas that a PLB is warranted...then take a PLB. Spot is a fun Toy for average Joe with some quite good industrial uses. THis is just my opinion though. They are a great unit, and the nerdy toy lover in me wants one, however they aren't, and shouldnt be used as a PLB IMHO

Devon Annie wrote:... with a sat phone you would still have battery concerns?

There is always the option of carrying a spare battery or two. Last walk I carried two batteries for the GPS, (one fewer than I needed), three batteries for the camera (plenty) and two batteries for the mobile phone. I might as well have left the phone at home though because I had zero coverage the whole trip. All these batteries cost a few bucks on ebay.

My two bobs worth GPS enabled PLB is the only safe way to go ,only needs activated when required ,current moble phone has reasonable coverage in Tas so why if you dont own a sat phone would you get anything else.c

corvus wrote:My two bobs worth current moble phone has reasonable coverage in Tas so why if you dont own a sat phone would you get anything else.c

My mobile had coverage briefly at one point on the walk yesterday, but I only found that because someone had sent a message and it beeped. It didn't even have it reception on the peak, and had no coverage until I had driven out to Sensation Gorge a few k's out of Mole Creek. Maybe the new 3G phones are better.

corvus wrote:My two bobs worth current moble phone has reasonable coverage in Tas so why if you dont own a sat phone would you get anything else.c

My mobile had coverage briefly at one point on the walk yesterday, but I only found that because someone had sent a message and it beeped. It didn't even have it reception on the peak, and had no coverage until I had driven out to Sensation Gorge a few k's out of Mole Creek. Maybe the new 3G phones are better.

Am working in Penguin today. South side of Main Road in town there is very little mobile coverage. I even had the telstra "farmers" phone - which has only one bar most of the time and I can talk on about 50% of calls. Maybe the highlands has better coverage than the "CBD" of Penguin.

corvus wrote:...current moble phone has reasonable coverage in Tas so why if you dont own a sat phone would you get anything else.

My experience carrying a ZTE F165 on the Telstra NextG network is that my mobile phone only works from the higher peaks. Still, I suppose it reassuring to know that if I break a leg all I need to do is crawl to the top of the nearest mountain.

I've never carried a PLB, but that will change soon. The obvious problem with the PLB is the lack of immediate feedback to let family and friends know you are still safe and well. That is the appeal of SPOT of a sat phone with SMS - you can send a message each day, without having to climb a mountain to do it. Cost is the main disadvantage.

My two bobs worth re above recent posts.First...SPOT works on the Globalstar system of satellites...hence has severe limitations for use in southern latitudes....check out thread by tasadam...viewtopic.php?f=21&t=415&p=13184#p12557

Globalstar have been having satellite difficulties...also if you read the above thread you'll find the reason some people are having trouble with satellite reception with these units...mainly as these satellite are inclined to the vetical at quite a low angle.Hence..if you're stuck in a steep gully or similar...you may not get the distress signal out.

Forget about any other type of mobile phone...they simply aren't worth relying on...as same as above. May be fine if you have an accident on top of Cradle Mt...or similar...but little use else where.

The cheapest and most reliable option is the PLB....that being the GME MT410G......these guys have been building EPIRBS and PLB's for many many years and are extremely reliable. If you want to know the difference with a non GPS PLB....read the thread above from Linda Berryman. I personally would only buy this unit...but my Sat phone IS reliable...so no need at this stage.

Everyone should be aware that PLB's are available for hire from Service Tasmania at a very reasonable charge of $40 per week.

While you may have battery concerns with normal electronic gear...I can assure you the batteries in PLB's are state of the art and guaranteed for several years.

While PLB's are expensive... is there any REAL alternative....WHAT IS YOUR LIFE WORTH???....or the angst it may be causing your family while you're away.

Re Iridium Sat phones....if contemplating purchase...you may be able to pick up a Motorola handset from Ebay at considerably cheaper prices.

I'd also steer completely away from the Optus Thuraya...until you actually know what the satellite configurations are....otherwise you may be like all the others with limited ability.

sirius Tas wrote:My two bobs worth re above recent posts.First...SPOT works on the Globalstar system of satellites...hence has severe limitations for use in southern latitudes....check out thread by tasadam...viewtopic.php?f=21&t=415&p=13184#p12557

Globalstar have been having satellite difficulties...also if you read the above thread you'll find the reason some people are having trouble with satellite reception with these units...mainly as these satellite are inclined to the vetical at quite a low angle.Hence..if you're stuck in a steep gully or similar...you may not get the distress signal out.

SPOT does not use Globalstar's 2-way voice technology. They use the Globalstar simplex constellation which, according to them, extensive testing shows 99.6% reliability.

I had heard a figure mentioned by a friend for something more like $1200. I have not done my own research on this, but that is where my "spend the extra" comment came from.

Devon Annie wrote:<snip>Maybe the new 3G phones are better.

My experience is that the NextG phones are a lot better. Coverage at Shelf Camp (Mt Anne), for example.Penguin is a hole. I mean "in a hole". Nothing against the place - it's a nice place, just that phone coverage there is difficult, like it is in a hole.

sirius Tas wrote:I'd also steer completely away from the Optus Thuraya...until you actually know what the satellite configurations are....otherwise you may be like all the others with limited ability.

I'm not sure exactly what sT is referring to here, but if its just where the satellite is then, the Thuraya-3 satellite is positioned in Geosynchronous Orbit, 35,786 km (22,236 miles) above the Earth, at 98.5 degrees East Longitude (which puts it somewhere near Malaysia). It would be fairly low on the Tasmanian northwest horizon. Weather that gives good or bad coverage, time will tell. As for the dual mode phone with GSM, I'd be more worried about the Optus GMS coverage (pdf) than the satellite coverage.

Hi All,Taswaterfalls.....Have just emailed and received answer back from SPOT.....to check on what satellites they use...and yes..they use the same satellites as the Globalstar Satellite Phone system....which I believe has given quite poor results in the SW and other places...and yes they haven't had the difficulties experienced by the Sat phone users as you quite rightly said..it's using the simplex system...BUT this is still part of the main Sat phone constellation of Satellites. I'd be a bit concerned with their relatively low angle to the horizon....and as is the Thuraya-3 satellite which is only one satellite at a Geostationary orbit above southern part of Indonesia....by my calcs also gives a 79 degree angle above the horizon when looking from southern Tasmania.The ONLY SATELLITE PHONE that gives %100 worlwide coverage is the IRIDIUM system operated by Telstra.The Globalstar has %80 ....their stated coverageThe Thuraya system...I would think even less.The main difference with the latter two systems is that the Polar regions aren't covered hence poorer performance here in Tassie.I might add that this is probably only relevant if walking SOLO...as you can't plan where you're likely to have an accident. If in a group...then obviously one or other persons has the ability to take the phone to a reception area nearby. Obviously if you happen to be perched on top of a mountain...then just about anything would do.As I said...these are my concerns only....as to what people may or may not use....then that's up to them...but at least they should be reliably informed. I'll keep testing the Iridium system and posting for record purposes.sT

sirius Tas wrote: The Globalstar has %80 ....their stated coverage. The Thuraya system...I would think even less....as to what people may or may not use....then that's up to them...but at least they should be reliably informed.

So where is your evidence? It is not "reliable" information if you are only guessing. Is there any evidence that these satellite systems don't work in Tasmania or that they don't provide the necessary coverage.

And yes I do understand the difference between a Geostat orbit and a polar orbit. Any Geostat satellite by definition is equatorial and hence low on the horizon if you are in Tasmania. The theory says the Iridium system should be better, but that isn't the question. The question is do the other systems provide adequate coverage? I'd love to read some reliable info about how good/bad the coverage is.

sirius Tas wrote:The ONLY SATELLITE PHONE that gives %100 worlwide coverage is the IRIDIUM system operated by Telstra.

Telstra don't operate the Iridium system, it is owned and operated by Iridium Satellite LLC, which is privately owned by Iridium Holdings (which bought it out of bankruptcy in 2000). Last September Iridium Holding announced a proposed merger with GHL Acquisition which would see the company listed on the Nasdaq stock exchange. Not sure if this has happened. Might be worth buying some shares. They have (or had, no sure which) big plans to invest in new satellites, environmental monitoring systems, geographic positioning system to complement the current GPS and even ubiquitous wireless networking. ...but you probably didn't need to know all that.

To All,To help try and clarify issues surrounding various options with regards to emergency distress signals and various options available including the later SPOT Messenger & Distress System...I have sent the following email to AMSA.

Message or Enquiry: Hi,I would like to clarify what your thoughts are with regards to safety on whether a PLB...say GME410G or equivalent or the latest SPOT Messenger Service and distress beacon has any preference by Rescue Search Authorities here in Australia and whether there may be any deficiencies that you people may be aware of with regards to the SPOT system as opposed to the PLB's.Any feedback would be most welcome as there has been considerable discussion here in Tasmania with regards to what bushwalkers may or may not wish to use.

Kind regardsVern

Response from AMSA as follows...

Hi Vern,Our advice as a SAR authority is that a properly registered 406 MHz distress beacon equipped with GPS is the best SAR alerting device apart from two way radio/satellite communications. SPOT appears to be a good tracking device with an auxiliary alerting feature. The distress button on the SPOT product is labelled as '911', the distress message is transmitted to the SPOT office in Texas USA.

AMSA is the Australian SAR Authority for the Australian SAR region. AMSA does not have direct access to the SPOT system as it is privately owned and operated. If a SPOT alert is detected within the Australian SAR region we (AMSA) rely upon SPOT to notify AMSA of the alert, coordinates and registration details to coordinate the SAR response. If AMSA is not notified of the SPOT alert then we can not coordinate a SAR response.

In relation to a PLB, AMSA has direct and immediate access to the Cospas-Sarsat system to receive the distress message and coordinate the response. We also have direct access to the beacon registration database.

Spot performed amazingly well during our entire expedition. It exceeded the expectations of all involved. It missed very few of its 10 minute signals and we were in the deepest of ravines, the thickest of vegetation, the denses of canopies and the foulest of weather conditions. Great conditions for a walk hey !Spot was carried the entire expedition in the top most lid of my backpack, which was at a height of just above my head height.

I have heard of other situations where Spot has not been carried as high, or as exposed and the results have not been as good.It appears to me that Spot needs to be carried high with only the pack shell covering it. ( my thoughts anyway)

We carried an ( 1 of 2 ) Iridium Sat phone and it performed well. Yes, there were times when we could not get reception in the deepest of ravines or the thickest of vegetation with dense canopy. Generally it worked very well. If we had of experienced an emergency, I feel confident we would have been able to get to an area (somewhere) to get reception.

Our other ( hire) Sat Phone was a non-event, due to setting and code problems beyond our control (it just went along for the walk). However I must say that the service (post walk) given by "Australian Two-Way Radio Rentals" of Melbourne was first class. I would recommend them to anyone intending to hire a Sat Phone.

Rather than get off topic in the mobile phone coverage topic I thought I'd add to Paul's comments regarding SPOT

Paul wrote:Spot & Sat Phone,Spot performed amazingly well during our entire expedition. It exceeded the expectations of all involved. It missed very few of its 10 minute signals and we were in the deepest of ravines, the thickest of vegetation, the denses of canopies and the foulest of weather conditions. Great conditions for a walk hey !Spot was carried the entire expedition in the top most lid of my backpack, which was at a height of just above my head height.

I have heard of other situations where Spot has not been carried as high, or as exposed and the results have not been as good.It appears to me that Spot needs to be carried high with only the pack shell covering it. ( my thoughts anyway)

Paul

I had been considering "SPOT" for sometime and managed to pick one cheaply off of Fleabay (seller was in Launnie ) .. My understanding is for SPOT to send a signal every 10 mins it does need to be clear of any cover etc that may interfere with a signal getting out. But I didn’t buy it for that purpose .. "We" bushwalk / flyfish in the central highlands and whilst we have a general idea of where we are headed .. conditions / wind direction etc will dictate were we end up .. maybe some kms from original destination .. it's reassuring to let family know where we are at the end of the day or if we move lakes during the day. If you take the time to let SPOT find it's bearings before sending a signal then all is well .. so far 100 % success rate. MY feeling is that it works under most conditions (.. not good from a moving MV ) and that it is in all likelihood going to work under emergency conditions .. this maybe a little naive on my part but for the sorts of situations I walk / fish under it suits

This information on battery usage of the SPOT messenger might be valuable to some, and provides data of actual field usage under the most extreme conditions the South West of Tasmania could have thrown at us on our expedition.

I carried the SPOT messenger device through the South West, from Coal Head (Macquarie Harbour) to Ouse for the duration of 23 days. It was turned on every day between 7:30am and approx 5:30pm ( 23d X 10 hrs = 230 hours) and I never had to replace the batteries for the entire expedition.

Paul wrote:This information on battery usage of the SPOT messenger might be valuable to some, and provides data of actual field usage under the most extreme conditions the South West of Tasmania could have thrown at us on our expedition.

I carried the SPOT messenger device through the South West, from Coal Head (Macquarie Harbour) to Ouse for the duration of 23 days. It was turned on every day between 7:30am and approx 5:30pm ( 23d X 10 hrs = 230 hours) and I never had to replace the batteries for the entire expedition.

That's phenomonal battery life Paul. What type does it use/how many?

John W

In Nature's keeping they are safe, but through the agency of man destruction is making rapid progress - John Muir c1912

Recently a bushwalker broke a bone in his ankle, about 10km in from Farmhouse Creek, on route to Federation Peak.

The group were carrying a SPOT so they activated the 911 help button. Within 12 minutes the registered contact person in Tasmania was alerted, from America, about the activation of the unit ( & giving long/lat references )