Medical Marijuana for Pain and Sleep and the PEM (!) in CFS

I'm too early into my own experiment to really report, but to respond to a few things:

(1) it's not "borderline" if it's legal in your state. It's LEGAL. You will have to put up with the slight uneasiness of knowing it is still illegal under Federal law. But in my state, it's been made very clear at the highest levels that the state is not at all interested in helping enforce the Federal law.

(2) You don't have to ask your own doctor for a recommendation, there are numerous doc-in-the-boxes around who will write one for you for the cost of one office visit. I don't know firsthand how most "regular" doctors would respond but I have so many problems with my HMO that I didn't want to get into it with them. At the doc-in-the-box, I filled out many forms indicating my medical problems and did not exaggerate a single thing. Chronic pain was my primary complaint.

(3) The doctor will ask you some questions but it is pretty much a rubber stamp. I asked specifically if there is any contraindication against MM use and he said "Heart disease." He didn't know anything about chronic fatigue syndrome, of course, but it's better to get into the specifics of your symptoms - pain, insomnia, etc. - because those are things that MM is approved for. In actuality there is a lot of latitude for the doctor to decide that MM would be "beneficial" to pretty much any medical problem, which is why it's absurdly easy to get MM.

(4) There was no physical exam whatsoever. The doctor did take the opportunity to lecture me on how my various sufferings are "a blessing" and how they were "happening for a reason," etc. Nothing I hate more than that kind of talk, but I basically kept a straight face, nodded, and wrote it off to the effects of having a captive audience. I don't plan to ever see that doctor again. (I will need an annual renewal for my paperwork, but I can go elsewhere for that.)

(5) The doctor doesn't tell you anything specific about what kind of MM to get, how to use it, etc. You have to get all that info from the dispensary, or through your own research. The dispensary I went to was pleasant enough and the people there fairly knowledgeable about medical uses, which kinds are better for pain, etc.

(6) Try to refrain from giggling at the silly, silly names for all the strains.

(7) If you're not used to smoking MJ you might find this the hardest learning curve of all. I thought I was good to go, even though I've never smoked pot in my life apart from once when I was 16, because I've occasionally smoked cigarettes over the years and actually enjoy cigarettes. (I seem to be one of those oddballs who doesn't get addicted to nicotine.) But smoking pot is different from smoking tobacco and I've definitely had to learn new habits.

I don't know yet whether I'm going to continue with this experiment, but I know for sure I'm going to need to try out different strains before I decide if it's really beneficial. So far, it does seem as though the sativa types do reduce my bodily pain (particularly the muscle aches) and seem to induce a nice bodily relaxation that cuts down on the "wired but tired" feeling.

Thank you for the info. i wasn't sure how to go about the MM route with my primary docs. Don't you have to give the MM doc copies of your medical file? It's just so aggravating that not one MD has recommeded this for me especially since not one can help me with my worse symptom which is nausea/sickness/malaise. I've had a Acupuncturist *hint* to me about MM but that's it. where do i go? what files do i bring? do i need to convince my MD? who do i see? where is a dispensary? where do i buy a pipe or vaporizer? how many people and places do i have to see for MM? It's just too much work for me at this point.

After you have experimented with MM long enough, can you please give us feedback on how it affects specific ME/CFS symptoms such as insomnia, malaise/sickness/nausea, anxiety/wired, depression, and how it may or may not aggravate our fatigue, brainfog, lightheadedness, and OI? i want to replace all my narcotic meds with MM if it can do the job better and safer.

i realize MM is purely for symptomatic relief and cures nothing, but i feel it is much safer than all the sleeping pills, AD's, benzos, amphetamines, and oxycotin(synthetic heroin) that are regulary prescribed to PWC. I see PWC reporting at prohealth of horrible withdrawals that have them landed in the ER. As you know, there is no physical addiction with MM unlike the prescription meds listed, other illegal drugs, and even legal drugs-tobacco and alcohol.

Also, you should know most patients with chronic and severe diseases are using a vaporizer to smoke it in order to avoid the carcinogenic smoke by product( ie: smoked tobacco is the #1 cause of death in the US and around the world). A vaporizer is recommended for everyone except those that will die from AIDS or cancer in less than 1 year.

Good luck and i hope to hear more of your MM feedback in the near future!

(1) it's not "borderline" if it's legal in your state. It's LEGAL. You will have to put up with the slight uneasiness of knowing it is still illegal under Federal law. But in my state, it's been made very clear at the highest levels that the state is not at all interested in helping enforce the Federal law.

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The uneasiness is more than slight, and not merely because it's illegal under Federal law. Just because the state won't prosecute doesn't mean that police won't investigate or detain you while things are getting sorted out. I know California is the most lax in this area as the other MM legal states...keep in mind that what applies in your state might not necessarily apply in others. Last July I had to ride on the ferry, and they were going up and down the lines of cars with a drug-sniffing dog. Had I been carrying MM, the dog would have alerted and they would have asked me to get out of the car (very bad due to severe MCS with the exhaust, cigarrete smoke, etc) and even after seeing my note from a doc they may have searched me and the car to make sure I was below the legal limit. For someone very sensitive to stress and with severe MCS, and event such as that would take a while to recover from. Not borderline? In my book "not borderline" would be not having to worry about the police treating you like a criminal until they see the doctor's note, and even then opossibly conducting an intrusive search.

As another example, several months ago two policemen showed up on my doorstep out of the blue. It was a routine follow-up on a lead in an identity fraud case, apparently they found my name and address on a piece of paper where the suspect had been staying and they were hoping I could provide information on her. It had nothing to do with me, I helped them as much as I could, and they left. That casual interaction alone took a bit to recover from due to the stress. I found out later that before they came to my house they questioned the neighbors about possible drug use in my trailer. I thought, "You're kidding me, right?" Before they had seen me or spoken a single word to me they already suspected illegal drug use. If they had smelled a "certain aroma" upon me opening the door don't you think the interaction may have gone a little less smoothly?

So I already have two examples within the past 6 months where MM probably would have caused an issue with law enforcement, had I been using it. Would I have been arrested? No. Would it have caused a significant amount of stress and MCS issues, both of which would have physically affected my health for weeks afterwards? Yes. Unfortunately that possibility has to factor into my decisions concerning MM.

I do know that if I try MM I'm most likely going for ingestion, since my lungs are extremely sensitive to smoke and inhaled chemicals (such as the plastic of a vaporizer outgassing), so at least that should eliminate the "aroma" issue.

I don't know how it works in any other state, I barely know how it works in my own state! But in my city, there are dispensaries all over the place advertising themselves very openly. The polite legal fiction is that they are "cooperatives" and not retail establishments, and you are giving a "donation" instead of paying for the goods. You're not allowed to enter the dispensary unless you are a "member" but it's about a minute worth of showing them paperwork and your driver's license to "join".

I don't foresee a likely scenario where I would get busted - I'm not planning to travel with the stuff, since I never go anywhere - and if I did happen to get pulled over on my way home from the dispensary for some random reason and did have to show my medical recommendation, I don't think it would be a worse experience than say, getting in a car accident, which is a (much greater) risk I run every time I get in the car and drive somewhere.

lancelot, here in Socal, you could just open up the back of your alternative newsweekly and find the MM doctor and dispensary listings. You don't have to bring any medical records or even tell your primary care doctor if you don't want to do so, though that's probably advisable. You bring your driver's license and fill out a bunch of forms and see the doctor. One doctor visit is all, you apparently need to renew after one year. The dispensaries are separate operations, the doctor can't tell you any specifics about MM, all that happens at the dispensary. You might want to google around or find recommendations for dispensaries, I'm told that most of them are very nice and helpful, but some are undoubtably better/more knowledgeable than others for people with legitimate medical needs.

I dunno if I'm going to stick with this or not. I do *not* see it as a complete replacement for all other meds I'm taking, or necessarily or inherently "safer". It's not free of side effects or dangers, it just has different side effects and dangers than other kinds of medication. I'm essentially unsentimental about these things, I don't think something's better just because it's quote-unquote "natural" - plenty of utterly deadly things are natural. But there's so much moralistic silliness around marijuana - and on the other side of things, so much uncritical woo-woo from proponents about how it's the great natural cure for all ills and automatically beneficial in all situations - it's awfully hard to sort out the signal from the noise.

ETA: There is apparently some kind of arrangement where you can get a caregiver designated to go to the dispensary on your behalf. I don't know any specifics beyond that, but might be an option for those who can't go out or who are very worried about what might happen when they are transporting the supplies.

Again, all of the above is only about California and my own experience here in Los Angeles.

The uneasiness is more than slight, and not merely because it's illegal under Federal law. Just because the state won't prosecute doesn't mean that police won't investigate or detain you while things are getting sorted out. I know California is the most lax in this area as the other MM legal states...*

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Here in California, Medical Marijuana is protected by state laws since 1996 and no registered MM patient will ever be arrested since it is legal. As long as you hold a "marijuana card", you can legally have up to 8oz-1 pound of marijuana depending on the county/city and grow 6 mature plants of your own. Both Obama and Holder have both said that they(federal) will not go after MM patients or dispensaries in the 14 states that have legalized MM. Under the presidency of that idiot named, bush, the dea regularly shut down dispensaries in california.

The legality of MM or the worry of arrest is not what is stopping me from trying it, but all the hoops i have to go through in order to get it is too much for a homebound disabled person. i can barely manage 2 doctor appointments per year.

Here in California, Medical Marijuana is protected by state laws since 1996 and no registered MM patient will ever be arrested since it is legal.

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Again, I'm glad Californian laws are better than ours. California law says it wants to "ensure that patients and their primary caregivers who obtain and use marijuana for medical purposes upon the recommendation of a physician are not subject to criminal prosecution or sanction." (source) And that's great.

Is medical marijuana legal in Washington? I've heard conflicting answers to this question.

Marijuana possession is illegal in Washington. The medical marijuana law, Chapter 69.51A RCW, provides an affirmative defense for qualified patients and designated caregivers. People who qualify have a valid reason to possess a 60-day supply of marijuana. They may use that reason to defend against a legal action taken under Washington law. However, medical marijuana is not legal under federal law. There is no affirmative defense for people who are arrested or charged under federal law.

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That means if the state prosecutes you for breaking the law for posession of marijuana, then you are provided with a good excuse. If the Feds prosecute you, you're on your own.

From what I understand, affirmative defense is basically, "I broke the law, but I had a really good reason to." A good example of affirmative defense is self-defense. Killing a person is not authorized by law, however legislation provides affirmative defense as an "out" for those who legitimately use deadly force to defend themselves. It's an important legal distinction because if you shoot someone legitimately in self-defense you can still get arrested, still go to jail for it, and the prosecuter get to decide if they want to take you to court or not. That's because the law provides you with a defense in court but it doesn't provide you with immunity from arrest and prosecution. A smart prosecuter and cops know when the person has a rock-solid affirmative defense and doesn't bother.

Reading California law, the wording specifically authorizes the use of MMJ and specifically says you're protected from prosecution. California has made it legal. Washington state has not...Washinton state, and several other states, have only provided you with a good defense in court if the state prosecution goes after you. That's it.

Note, again, that in WA state dispensaries are illegal. Again, there are no legal dispensaries in WA state. I haven't looked into the other states, but I suspect that more than just mine don't allow dispensaries.

lancelot, if you are home bound, do you have a caregiver who can go "shopping" on your behalf? Because really there are only two hoops - the doctor visit and the dispensary shopping - and you can designate a caregiver to do the dispensary part. I understand some dispensaries even deliver. But you may not live in such a dispensary-friendly neighborhood. I found a directory here-

A federal about-face on medical marijuana
New Justice Department guidelines order federal drug agents to cease arresting or charging patients, caregivers or suppliers who are conforming with state law.
October 20, 2009|Josh Meyer

WASHINGTON The Obama administration on Monday told federal authorities not to arrest or prosecute medical marijuana users and suppliers who aren't violating local laws, paving the way for some states to allow dispensaries to provide the drug as relief for some maladies.

The Justice Department's guidelines ended months of uncertainty over how far the Obama White House planned to go in reversing the Bush administration's position, which was that federal drug laws should be enforced even in states like California, with medical marijuana laws on the books.

The new guidelines tell prosecutors and federal drug agents they have more important things to do than to arrest people who are obeying state laws that allow some use or sale of medical marijuana.

"It will not be a priority to use federal resources to prosecute patients with serious illnesses or their caregivers who are complying with state laws on medical marijuana, but we will not tolerate drug traffickers who hide behind claims of compliance with state law to mask activities that are clearly illegal," Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. said in a statement.

lancelot, if you are home bound, do you have a caregiver who can go "shopping" on your behalf? Because really there are only two hoops - the doctor visit and the dispensary shopping - and you can designate a caregiver to do the dispensary part. ]

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that's pretty funny having my 77yo and 66yo elderly parents go buy marijuana for me. picturing them in a marijuana shop and freaking out is priceless! LOL!!! if anything, they would just drive me there and drop me off like a doctor's visit. problem is i'm too fatigued and cognitively challenged to understand how to use MM as it applies to CFS/ME. i don't want to talk to a MM doc that is CFS/ME illiterate nor a dispensary that doesn't know either. i want to try MM but i want someone i trust and CFS knowlegeable preferably one of my docs to sit down and tell me everything.

I really cannot experiment with my health at this point. I cannot live with being any sicker and disabled then i am now. In the past experimenting with an AD called cymbalta recommended by a CFS illiterate doc made my condition permanently worse and has taken me about 2 years to get back some of what cymbalta took away from me(severe cognitive problems, insomnia, severe fatigue, etc) . acupuncture and herbal medicines made me PEM, dealthly sick/nauseated and chills/fevers but was not permanent like the AD. This is why i'm scared to try MM or any other meds without someone who knows what they are doing as it specifically applies to CFS/ME. i coudn't live through those cymbalta years again(actually 1month of cymbalta and years of hell!)

If you could give me your personal feedbacks would be great so i can better prepare myself to take the plunge oneday. i know you say you use it mainly for pain, but i have CFS with no pain. can i use it for sleep and bypass sleeping pills? how about sickness/nausea? anxiety/wired? mood uplifting? anything negative? thanks urbantravels!

Again, I'm glad Californian laws are better than ours. California law says it wants to "ensure that patients and their primary caregivers who obtain and use marijuana for medical purposes upon the recommendation of a physician are not subject to criminal prosecution or sanction."

Here's what the official WA state government website says pertaining to the legality of MMJ in WA state:
California has made it legal. Washington state has not...Washinton state, and several other states, have only provided you with a good defense in court if the state prosecution goes after you. That's it.

Note, again, that in WA state dispensaries are illegal. Again, there are no legal dispensaries in WA state. I haven't looked into the other states, but I suspect that more than just mine don't allow dispensaries.

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if you live in a state where MM is illegal, then you can either move to another state or simply don't take it. no one wants to be in jail and dealthly ill from a chronic disease. there are many MS, AIDS, Cancer patients who have moved to a legal MM state in order to save themselves.

PS: Proposition 19-legalization of marijuana in california for recreational use goes to the ballot on november 2. It has nothing to do with MM, but should be interesting to see what happens.

i want to try MM but i want someone i trust and CFS knowlegeable preferably one of my docs to sit down and tell me everything.

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That's what I want too! In fact I want a CFS knowledgeable doc to begin with! But I don't have one. I think we're in the same unfortunate boat on this as on everything else - I don't think there really *is* any good information out there. (I wonder what one of the good clinicians, like Nancy Klimas, would say?)

I pretty much see MM as just another symptomatic treatment. I was a little nervous to try it out (especially since I truly had no experience with MJ, recreationally or otherwise!) but I also don't tend to have severe reactions to medications as many ME/CFS patients do. I already take antidepressants and benzos and painkillers and haven't had bad side effects from those. So my anecdotal experience might not be useful for everyone. But I'll do my best to report back once I've had the chance to experiment a little more, please take everything I say with a BIG grain of salt!

if you live in a state where MM is illegal, then you can either move to another state or simply don't take it. no one wants to be in jail and dealthly ill from a chronic disease. there are many MS, AIDS, Cancer patients who have moved to a legal MM state in order to save themselves.

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I live in a state where MM is considered legal. There are different levels of legality. I know brain fog makes it hard to grasp but I'm writing this for the sake of anyone else who may be misinformed. WA is one of the 14 states that permit the use of medical marijuana, however it is not technically legal in that you are protected from arrest and prosecution, it is only legal in the sense that if the state arrests and prosecutes you, you are given a lawful defense and will not be convicted. I did a quick search and found that Maine is another state that only uses affirmative defense rather than actually legalizing it. Again, Maine and WA are among the 14 states considered to be MM legal, but in fact it is more complicated than that. So I urge people to not get into MM until they have educated themselves on their own state laws so you can be certain of what you're getting into.

BTW I'm completely dependant on a caretaker who has a family anchored in this area, so moving to another state is out of the question for me.

I haven't decided against trying MM, I'm just working through the process of evaluating the risk vs. benefits and other such issues concerning it.

That's what I want too! In fact I want a CFS knowledgeable doc to begin with! But I don't have one. I think we're in the same unfortunate boat on this as on everything else - I don't think there really *is* any good information out there. (I wonder what one of the good clinicians, like Nancy Klimas, would say?)
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I wouldn't hold my breath on having a CFS dr knowledgable on MM also! I just doubt that this would be high up there on there priority list, they have so much to do. Just my thoughts.

I just wish MJ didn't make me so hungry....I keep trying to keep down my weight but I'm hopeless when stoned. Weight gain is why I'm not using it more, otherwise I love it. Do they have strains that don't make one hungry?

I've talked to so many that take specific strains and claim it really helps them that if it was easier I would try it. I hate the smell of smoke little lone pot smoke. Its only the fact that I have to drive an hour into town to a store where I could get all the information and then decide what to get, that I don't do it. I do have the cessamet pills, but no opinion on them as I rarely take them

I've been reading these forums for years and have never made an account, but this thread has inspired me to share my insight.

I have been testing the use of Cannabis for a couple years now and I have learned a lot about it.

I'll give a little background first. I first got ME/CFS following a illness when I was 11 years old. I have used cannabis recreationally since I was a teenager, and was self medicating with it for a couple years before I even realized I was self medicating.

Over the last 3 years I have gone from being moderately disabled, to being severely disabled by my ME/CFS/FMS/MPS. I went from working as a Personal Trainer to not being able to take care of myself, cook, clean, see loved ones, you name it. I am 22 years old.

Now that I am so ill I can't even pretend to function in society I have been given better support from my parents and my wife (who is also ill). This has given me a chance to better experiment with treatments, including the use of Cannabis.

I was extremely concerned about Cannabis possibly being the cause of, or perpetuating parts of my ailments, but at the same time was torn because of how effective it was in helping me deal with symptoms. Especially how it eliminated the negative side effects from pain medication. So here is what I've learned from my experimentation.

As others have already said in this thread; the differences between "strains" of Cannabis are massive. There are 2 main types and thousands of hybrids. Indica, which contains more CBD (an anti psychotic), CBN, and Sativa which contains more THC, THC-V.

Indica strains seem to produce less mental side effects, and more physical ones. These strains are excellent for mental and physical relaxation. They seem to work very well for pain and muscle tightness/spasms and appetite. They also have sedative effects that can help with sleep or relaxation, and for me the anxiety of a racing mind.

Sativa strains have very different, but equally strong effects. These strains are more invigorating and stimulating then the Indica variants. They can help with pain and muscles spasms, but seemingly not as well. Instead of having a sedating effects they have a stimulant effect. They give you energy both mentally and physically, and have a strong anti-depressant effect while leaving your clear headed compared to the Indica counterparts. These Sativa strains can help you get stuff done and seem to actually help me think more clearly and less erratically, although they still produce a very "high" feeling.
Keep in mind that most strains are a hybrid of of both Indica and Sativa, so the effects of each individual strain can vary wildly.

Now that we've covered some basic good side effects, lets talk about the bad ones. As we all know, every drug that helps also can hurt in a similar fashion. I'll talk about the pros and cons to the different methods of using it below.

Smoking it: Smoking it is the act of combusting the Cannabis and inhaling it. For me, the act of smoking creates horrible pain, and can leave me completely dehabilitated. The carcinogens created by it are just too strong for my body. Out side of the pain, it also aggravates my heart and can be very dangerous for people suffering from Mitral Valve Prolapse, or Long QT Syndrome (These types of heart conditions are common in ME/CFS). I believe the main reason for the Pain is the carcinogens from the smoke, and the main reason for the Heart problems is because inhaling is such a potent, physically stressful, and maybe even too fast way to take so much of a strong drug. (Think about smoking pain medicine vs. pill form and it starts to make sense). The upside to smoking is that if it does not negatively effect you then it can give you some serious energy.

Vaporizing: Vaporizing is the act of heating up the material, but not to the point of combustion, and inhaling it. There are many different temperatures to vaporize at but the the highest "safe" temperature for cannabis is thought to be 374 degrees Fahrenheit. This is a temperature that does not create carcinogens and has never caused me pain before. In order to get the full effect of the Cannabis though you must vaporize at a higher temperature at which compounds like CBD, and CBN are released more effectively. The down side of this higher temperature (up to 445 degrees Fahrenheit) is that some carcinogens are released, and it can, for me at least, cause pain. The only other down side, is that is you Vaporize too much, too quickly, even at the safe temperature of 374F it can aggravate heart conditions. It is pretty easy to avoid but, as most of us know, if you're experiencing extreme cognitive dysfunction you can screw anything up.

Cannabis Oil: Eating the plant material directly won't have any effect as it has to be heated up to activated the compounds within it. THC and the other canabiniods (active ingredients) are fat soluble, so when cooked with fat they leave the plant and enter the fat. After cooking it into oil, it can be applied in any fashion you want. The most popular way is eating it, just like most of our other medicines. Just like with any other drug there is a huge difference between eating it, and smoking it. it generally take an hour and a half, to two hours to feel the effects of it, and it lasts from 6-8 hours. It is much more gradual in its onset and decline then smoking, and thus eliminates a lot of the "getting high" that people associate with smoking it. The major thing to watch out for, as with everything else, is how much you are consuming. If you have smoked too much, you will know within minutes, and it will fade within a couple hours, but if you eat too much you wont know for 2-3 hours, and it will last basically all day. I have never experienced heart side effects from eating, and it is very effective for pain.

Cannabis is a drug, just like every other pharmaceutical. While its side effects from long term use are essentially harmless, there are a few that are important for people that are very ill to know about. If you use it on a daily basis (especially if smoking if your preferred method) then you will suffer withdrawal side effects upon stopping. The 3 main main withdrawal effects are Nausea, Insomnia, and Depression. These are also the 3 things that its best at treating. It's extremely important to treat Cannabis just like every other drug, be aware of your use of it, and acknowledge that these symptoms can be caused by stopping long term use without tapering off.

I know that I have spent a lot of time on the negative aspects of it, but it really is a miracle drug when you find the right strain, and, if used correctly, it is generally a good drug even if you cant. All in all it is possibly the least harmful drug you can take in the long term, but if you have heart problems just be cautious. Compared to the dozens of other drugs I have tried, with proper use, Cannabis has been substantially more helpful, and less harmful. In order to avoid building up a tolerance you can rotate between strains, just as we often have to do with other drugs.

I hope this post is helpful to someone. If we all keep experimenting and sharing maybe we can figure some of this stuff out.

Thank you ESP! I've been wanting to try MM for many years now. My biggest worry about MM was it making my OI/foggy/light-headedness, concentration/short term memory problems and fatigue/PEM/DPEM even worse. You say there are strains of MM that actually take away all these symptoms which would be a godsend!

What specific symptoms has MM helped you with and has it made other symptoms worse? My worst symptom has to be the 24/7 nausea/sickness/malaise. Can MM take that away? Is MM effective and strong enough as a sleep medication so that i can abandon restoril and ambien every night? Does it do anything for the awful unrefreshing sleep in CFS/ME? Thank you for your feedback!

Now that you mention it, it does seem to help with Orthostatic Intolerance. I never even realized that until you asked about it but I'm not as aware of my OI after useing it, and I've never lost my vision when standing up on it. But I do loose my vision when going from sitting to standing on occasion when I'm not using it. I'll have to watch this more closely.

It definitely works for nausea; especially drug related nausea. For that its best to vaporize it and not smoke it as smoke its self can make you sick to your stomach. I'm pretty sure that any type will work for nausea.

I have experienced that sativa dominant variety can be good at helping with being foggy headed, but a lot of strains can also make it worse. It can be hard to tell sometimes whether or not it's making it better, or just making you OK with it, know what I mean? It's a very strong anti-depressant.

As for malaise, it can help tremendously. It can make a relapse/crash MUCH easier to deal with. It doesn't guarantee that it will make you a whole lot more functional, but at the least it certainly makes recreational relaxation, which is generally required to recover from a crash, much easier to deal with. For me it often the difference between laying/sitting/pacing around in exhausted agony, verses being able to watch tv, read a book, play a video game, or even get something done.

The sleep one is very tricky. I've actually gotten the best sleep from it by using it several times through out the day, and then not using it at all for several hours before bed. I have woken up feel much better then normal by doing this, but this is something I am currently experimenting with. I also am desperate to get off of the restoril that I am taking. Sadly it is illegal where I live, and thus very difficult for me to experiment with much efficiency. I'm confident that it could be used as an effective sleep aid replacement but requires caution, as it seems that Sativa strains have a stimulating instead of sedative effect.

I would give it a try. Just start off with very small quantities like 25-75mg through a vaporizer and give it 30-45 minutes to start working . Most people require 10 times that amount, but better safe then sorry.

Please let me know how it goes for you if you decide to try. I would love to document what different strains work best in what scenarios. Good luck!

ESP, thanks for the detailed postings. I wonder if you have any particular named strains that you would recommend for different symptoms?

I've tried a few strains by now and they do seem to have different effects. Some don't seem to do very much at all, and some conk me out pretty well. The strongest I've tried was called "Fire" and it really knocks me out flat - the main feeling being as if my body is made of lead and the room is bending weirdly around me. It's not an entirely unpleasant sensation, and it certainly does knock down the "wired" part of "wired but tired." I think the main usefulness of this type of strain would be to help get needed rest to get through a PEM or agitated feelings.

I haven't yet found any strain that is as good for pain *on its own* as the Tramadol I currently take for pain, though several of them seem to cut down on pain quite a bit. (I have significant arthralgias and myalgias and a particular problem with neck pain.) I also haven't found any that would send me to sleep and keep me asleep as well as my pain meds do. At the moment I'm thinking of MM as an adjunct to my other meds and not a replacement for any of them, unless I find a wonder drug strain along the way. There are also significant limitations on when I can use MM because I do still drive myself around for errands and appointments, so I can't normally spend all day under the influence.

The only "edibles" I've tried are a chocolate bar that is REALLY strong, with a similar "couch lock" effect as the strongest smoking strains I've tried. And it's true that the effects take a surprisingly long time to kick in when you take edibles, about 2 hours for me. The edibles seem to be pretty good for helping with sleep.

I haven't yet invested in a vaporizer. I am OK with smoking although if I'm not careful I can burn my throat pretty bad. (I have smoked cigarettes from time to time but "inhaling" is such a different technique that I'm still getting used to it.)