A Ph.D. in Women's Studies?

The following discussion about whether to advise students to get a Ph.D. in Women's Studies took place on WMST-L in April 1997. For a more general (and lengthier) discussion about the job market (from 1995), see the 3-part file entitled The Academic Job Market.=============================================================

I'm interested in hearing people's ideas/experiences regardingadvising students about graduate degrees in Women's Studies. A studentin our minor program wants very much to get a PhD inWomen's Studies but she's having second thoughts because her major areaadvisor and also a Women's Studies advisor at the school she previouslyattended have advised her against this. For practical reasons (jobs), they'veencouraged her to focus on women's issues but to get her degree in atraditional subject area. My inclination is to encourage her to go for the Women's Studiesdegree, but we'd both appreciate hearing from those who did Women's Studiesgraduate degrees, who wish they had done them, etc.Isabelle WhiteEastern Kentucky Universitywmswhite.eku.edu===========================================================================

> My inclination is to encourage her to go for the Women's Studies> degree, but we'd both appreciate hearing from those who did Women's Studies> graduate degrees, who wish they had done them, etc.Well, the advice of many of my favorite advisors in both undergrad & gradschool was always to study/get a degree in/major in/etc. whatever reallypassionately attracts you most -- because that is pretty much the only waythat you have much of a chance to really do your best work, make the bestuse of your talents & expertise, etc., etc.Another consideration: I have seen an increasing number of jobannouncements in Women's Studies that ask for applicants with a Ph.D. inWomen's Studies. If a woman now starting grad school were interested in anacademic career in Women's Studies, I'd certainly advise her to go for thePh.D. in Women's Studies, if that is where her interest lies. This seemslike a field that is relatively ripe for some growth, especially by the timethat a person now entering Grad School is completing the doctorate.I personally cannot imagine putting in the time and effort to study, write adissertation, earn a doctorate, etc., in an area of study that I didn'treally care about very much, or that wasn't intellectually magnetic for me.OTOH, I'd advise *against* getting a doctorate in Women's Studies solely inorder to try to select a "hot field" in which one was likely to findemployment upon graduation, etc. Women's Studies doesn't need an influx offolks who are in it for that motivation, and there are probably not enoughPh.D. programs to accommodate all who might want to do that anyway.ruthginzberg @ beloit.eduWomen's StudiesBeloit College=============================================================================

How many schools offer PhDs in women's studies? I last heard that therewere only four- which is an important consideration for deciding what kindof degree to pursue.=============================================================================

Isabelle and everyone: I did a Master's in Women's Studies at Bucknell in the mid 80sthrough their interdisciplinary master's program (since dismantled, Ibelieve). I didn't know what I'd use it for, just knew that I needed toread/do what I loved for a change. The degree was not a plus in findingmany of the activist jobs I landed thereafter, but did position me well forthis incredible job I have now, directing The Union Institute's Center forWomen (about 7 years after I got the degree). I'm now doing my PhD inWomen's Studies through the Institute, which offers self-designed degreeprograms and an incredible, national feminist faculty (including MinnieBruce Pratt, Chandra Talpade Mohanty, Elizabeth Minnich, and others). The lesson for me was: do what you love and the path will open. Ihave never looked back. Jaime jgrant @ tui.edu===========================================================================

In response to Ruth Ginzberg and Dr. White,>> My inclination is to encourage her to go for the Women's Studies>> degree, but we'd both appreciate hearing from those who did Women's Studies>> graduate degrees, who wish they had done them, etc.>>Well, the advice of many of my favorite advisors in both undergrad & grad>school was always to study/get a degree in/major in/etc. whatever really>passionately attracts you most -- because that is pretty much the only way>that you have much of a chance to really do your best work, make the best>use of your talents & expertise, etc., etc.I am VERY passionate about Women's Studies. I appreciate the advice becauseI have been going back and forth about which path to take. I figure someoneneeds to take over for bell hooks, Audre Lorde, and others, to keep thegood fight going, and who better to do it than me! I'm in a certificateprogram right now and would like to go all the way to PhD. I've heard fromEmory University, Ohio State University and Universities that give aconcentration in Women's Studies from an original area (history, sociology,etc) like UC Santa Cruz. I'm still waiting to hear from Boston University,CUNY and others.If anybody knows of any other programs that are *specifically* Women'sStudies or if anybody wants to take a dedicated student under thier wingand mold them into the next big thing, e-mail me privately or to the group.Future feminists thank you.LoriLori PattersonRoger TuckerElijah Lapretlapret @ cybernw.com4808 NE 8th Ave #2Portland, OR 97211(503) 288-8037=============================================================================

Lori, More power to you. I am a feminist of the generation who helpedto start Women's Studies on my campus and I can confirm that if thelaws of nature continue to prevail, a lot of women my age will beretiring in the next decade. We had to learn to be interdisciplinaryscholars on our own--hard work but fun. Now whole programs exist=============================================================================

If we don't encourage those students who are truly passionately interestedin the field to get graduate degrees in Women's Studies we will beundercutting the growth and "legitimization" of our (trans)disciplinenationally. I, too, have told students to focus their efforts onwomen's issues in established disciplines because of the emphasis onjoint appointments in the job market, but I didn't always feelcomfortable doing this. I am heartened to see at least the handfulof jobs out there that ask for Women's Studies graduate training.I'm not saying that we shouldn't also talk about the option of doingWomen's Studies through History or English or Sociology or whatever;for some students this fits the bill. But for others who want to focuson Women's Studies as its own field with its own questions, I nowsay go for if you can. That option wasn't available to me when Iwent through American Studies at Univ. of Michigan (they developedthe graduate certificate in WS after I had finished my coursework) butI'm always bemused when people ask me, as a faculty member IN Women'sStudies, period, what field am I "really" in! Barbara Scott Winkler,West Virginia University Center for Women's Studies=============================================================================

Okay, well, I'm going to throw in my two cents' worth about this.I just received a Ph.D. in Women's Studies from Emory. I can say with someauthority, then, that your students need to think long and hard about thisdecision.I came to WS because there was not other place for me to do the research Iwanted to do. My experience at Emory has been mostly great (and how manypeople can say _that_ about any graduate program?). I have had the freedomto pursue my interests, good financial support (better than most places),and, most importantly, have not been expected to clone someone else'sresearch or had my imagination trampled to dust. I finieshed in fiveyears, writing a Master's thesis on the way, and with the support of AAUWin my last year. In all, I've had a really positive graduate schoolexperince.However, I now realize, having been on the job market, that having a Ph.D.in WS is not all that I though it would be. Traditional departments (myother area is sociology/criminology) often demand a Ph.D. in theirdiscipline. They often view the WS degree with some suspicion, at best,and as an equivalent of basket-weaving, at worst. I have had interest frominterdisciplinary sociology programs, but these are few and far between.Of course, this is hardly surprising.I also applied for nearly every WS job out there. Guess what? Not anibble. I don't want to sound immodest, but I KNOW that I am a strongcandidate. I have publications. I have not only a strong teaching record,but excellent teaching evaluations from both faculty and students. Thoserecommenders who shared their letters with me gave me the highestrecommendations (and these are people with whom I have worked closely forfive years and who know me very well). I have an interesting, meaningfuldissertation. I have presented at numerous conferences (NWSA, SEWSA, SSS,ASA, SSSP, plus smaller ones) and have always been well-received. I am anoverachiever, even by graduate school standards.What's going on? From my investigations, I believe that we need to askwhether WS programs are hiring WS Ph.D.s, or do THEY also view the WSPh.D. as the equivalent of basket-weaving? I think that this is thequestion that must be addressed before we encourage anyone to get theirdegree in WS. Any takers?So my recommendation is this: If your student views the Ph.D. as an avenueto employment in academia, I'd advise him/her not to take the chance (andbelieve me, it breaks my heart to write this). If your student views thePh.D. as a challenge, a life experience, an end in itself (as I do,somewhat--my dad was a welder who never even made it through grade school,my mother a secretary with a late-acquired associate's degree, I have aPh.D. I have peaked), then by all means, send him/her to WS, where s/hewill be given the opportunity to pursue all manner of innovative research(I hope).If you had asked me a year ago about sending your students to WS, I wouldhave encouraged you wholeheartedly. Now, older, sadder, and wiser maybe, Irealize that the state of affairs is such that getting a Ph.D is WS mayshut more doors, EVEN DOORS IN WOMEN'S STUDIES, than it opens.As for me, I will be working as prevention specilaist/youth educator atthe DeKalb Rape Crisis Center, a job which will be both challenging andrewarding, which will allow me to use my skills in the service of mypolitics and beliefs, but which will never carry the freedom, prestige,and pay of an academic position.I think that you should have your students think about the sacrifices theymay have to make for WS. I also think that we should all start thinkingand talking about the real state of the job market in WS. Thanks.Lauraine LeblancInstitute for Women's Studies, Emory Universitylleblan @ emory.eduPeople think, if you're a female punk rocker that you're worthless andyou're stupid and you're nasty, but we have . . . equal, if not morepower to do things, to go places and to be, and to make kick-assmusic, to open our own stores, to do our own thing, to raise hell. Wehave, just because we are girls. Because we're women and we can, andwe're strong women and I think that's why we get looked down on a lot.We're not afraid to say, "Fuck you, that's not right," and so theykind of like laugh at us and stuff, but deep down inside, they want to beus. They do! . . . They do! They want to be us! You know Donna Reed. Canou see Donna Reed in combat boots? In green liberty spikes, mopping afloor? "Get your own damn dinner!" --"Lola," June 1995=============================================================================

I chose to do graduate degrees in Women's Studies (an M.A. and a soon to becompleted Ph.D.) for the exact reasons Ruth identified. It was thediscipline I felt most passionate about and the discipline in which I felt Icould do my best work and offer the most with relation to teaching.As I have not yet completed my degree (I'll defend this summer) I can'tcomment on the possibilities of academic jobs in Women's Studies, but Ruth iscorrect to note that there *are* job postings in the discipline, both tenurestream and contractual. And one of the best sources of them has beenWMST-L!!I would advise students that are interested in pursuing graduate degrees inWomen's Studies (and who are unsure about doing so) to talk to others who arecurrently in graduate programmes in Women's Studies, to talk to those whoteach in graduate programmes in Women's Studies, attend conferences that havesessions for graduate students (lots of them do), etc.Hope this helps!Katherine Sideklside @ YorkU.caGraduate Programme in Women's StudiesYork UniversityNorth York, OntarioCanadaM3J 1P3=============================================================================

As a woman with an MA in Women's Studies and a Ph.D in American Studies, Iagree with much of Lauraine's message. I, too, am frustrated with thehiring situation of Women's Studies. I have seen too manyfaculty positions go to women with absolutely no training in Women'sStudies. What message does this send to the discipline and moreimportantly to our undergraduate and graduate students? I'm afraid thathiring women's studies faculty who are not trained in the discipline isthe quickest way to kill it. I do not mean to offend Women's Studiesfacully members with degrees in the more traditional academic disciplines,but the reality is that they are doing the hiring. I unfortunatelybelieve mere lip service is given to those of us who are trained in thediscipline and that our degrees are not valued. It is time institutionsbegin hiring faculty trained in the field--or at least ask for women'sstudies training in the job announcements.Teri Ann BengivenoSan Jose State Universitybengiven @ email.sjsu.edu=============================================================================

While I agree that the ongoing spectre of men's studies does require thecontinued fighting and efforts of WS (not to mention affirmativeaction--oops, I just did), I wonder also about the viability of the Ph.D.in Women's Studies in the WS job market. Ongoing anecdotal evidencesuggests to me that the validity of the WS Ph.D. is questioned there aswell, which is what I find to be the most disturbinf.Thus, I want to ask the following questions:How do hiring committees in WS view the WS Ph.D.?Given that there are so few Ph.D. programs, and thus few WS Ph.D.s, howhave they fared on the job market?How about WS positions that are joint appointments? Do the jointdepartments look down on the WS Ph.D., pushing in favor of a candidtaewith a traditional degree and a "certificate" in WS? (i.e. "any woman canteach WS)What are the criteria by which hiring committees evaluate the Ph.D. in WS?Would it be easier for me to get a WS job if I had a Ph.D. in Sociology(for example)?I think that the time has come for us as a WS academic community to assessthese questions very seriously--it's almost criminal for us to turn out WSacademics if no one--NOT EVEN WOMEN'S STUDIES PROGRAMS--will hire us.I, for one, would very much like to hear from WS administrators, hiringcommittee members, etc. on this list concerning these issues. Thank you.Lauraine LeblancInstitute for Women's Studies, Emory Universitylleblan @ emory.edu[see earlier message for long sig. file]On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Ruby Rohrlich wrote:> The real problem is that the traditional canon rules in all the> disciplines; that is, that despite the superhuman efforts of feminist> scholars to transform the disciplines into human studies, they remain> men's studies, and that is the real reason a doctorate in women's studies> is unacceptable. Ruby Rohrlich rohrlich @ gwis2.circ.gwu.edu============================================================================

It seems to me that part of this difficulty of Women's Studies as adiscipline is the actual interdisciplinary nature of the work. Somequestions to consider maybe is Women's Studies a department in itself, oris it a "program" incorporating faculty from a variety of differentdepartments? Does the particular Women's Studies dept/program consideritself to be social sciences, or humanities, and how does this influencehiring or understandings of Women's Studies "training." Do otherinterdisciplinary Ph.D. programs, ie. American Studies, have a similardifficulty in hiring?As a new Ph.D in English, and having completed a dissertation on women'sdiaries which falls more into the interdisiplinary catagories such asWomen's Studies, I am looking for jobs with a Women's Studies emphasisbecause I *love* it AND I *love* literature. However, I find that such jobsoften expect social science training. As president of TAMU's graduateWomen's Studies group, I worked to create a Women' Studies certificateavailable through the history and English departments here, but I hadcompleted my course work, my prelims, and was well on my way to writing mydissertation, so I did not go back and take the 6 more hours I needed toreceive the certificate. Thus, in some eyes, I have not been trained in thediscipline. For me, the beauty of Women's Studies is the interdisciplinaryresearch involved in the field. I'd recommend any student to decide howthey wish to focus their work, (humanities, social science, etc.) andchoose their program carefully. And to really really want to do it. It'stoo hard to do, regardless of emphasis, if you don't love it.Amy L. Wink~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Amy L. Wink, Ph.D.alw7315 @ acs.tamu.eduDepartment of EnglishTexas A&M UniversityCollege Station, TX 77843-4227"A Letter always feels to me like immortality because it is the mind alonewithout corporeal friend. Indebted in our talk to attitude and accent,there seems a spectral power in thought that walks alone." Emily Dickinson _Selected Letters_ (#330, p.196)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~============================================================================

Someone tell me it's not as bad as it sounds!While I'm fully aware that the academic job market is highly competitive,is it really as closed as this thread has made it seem??I am right now struggling through the writing of my dissertation and amhoping to finish by the end of the year when I will begin to circulate myresume. What should I realistically expect? I know much of this depends ongeography, ability to relocate, etc. but perhaps we could discuss the WSjob market more fully.Denise libra @ warwick.net=============================================================================

The fact is that for over 20 years there have been fewer U.S. academicjobs in the social science and humanities areas each year than there havebeen Ph.D.s granted in each area. Often the difference between the numberof advertised jobs and newly minted Ph.D. ran as high as a surplus of 200people more than available jobs. This is nothing new, and ironically thesituation has been getting slightly better in the last several years. Infact, a careful discussion of job trends in the most current issue of theAmerican Historical Association Newsletter discusses these trends withcomparative statistics for a number of fields. Women's studies jobs arerelatively few in number because few women's studies programs have hadthe status for independent hires. Most hiring UNTIL RECENTLY has been inother disciplines with a FIELD or interest in women's studies. However,in the last two years the number of women's studies focused jobs hasbegun to increase. It's still a tough job market and anyone in ANY fieldof academia should expect to have to be very persistent and prepare for aseveral year search for a tenure stream job. I wish I could give those ingraduate school better news, but that's the reality. It is also verydifficult to move once you have a job. Except for a small number ofpositions at research institutions, almost all the jobs that are listedwill be for starting assistant professors. That's all the universitiesand colleges will fund. It's why you will find advertisements even fordirectors of women's studies programs listed sometimes as AssistantProfessor level. Joan Gundersen jrgunder @ coyote.csusm.edu===========================================================================

I agree with Teri Ann Bengiveno and Lauraine LeBlanc about the pitfallsand frustrations of advanced WS degrees.I have had a similar experience, but on the lower end of the hiringscale. I have a grad Certificate in WS, and a JD. I applied for anAmerican Women's History position on the CC level, and found to myamazement that having a WS background was not part of the hiringcriteria at all. Worse than that, only white men have taught thecourse, and still do.However, the requirement was specifically that the instructor have 18grad hours in the field. I had documented 19 grad hrs for my WS Cert. Irealize that my hours were not per se in the field of history, butthis was a CC course. My point is that grad work in WS may indeed begreatly undervalued, especially in academia.So, in some respects, my WS work (was also my undergrad major) hasopened doors for me, but in others, I too feel the frustrations of thedead-end in hiring. Would I have done it differently if I had it to doover? NO. The problem is not the field of study, but the lack ofrecognition for it after graduation. There must be a better way ofgaining esteem for WS in the hiring world.M. Johnston <johnston1 @ worldnet.att.net>==========================================================================

I know this thread has gotten long, but I hope there's room for anotherthought. One aspect that hasn't been addressed directly is the wide breadthof Women's Studies. Just about everyone I know in the field isknowledgeable in one or more of the humanities (literature, languages, thearts, history, etc.) OR one or more of the social sciences (psychology,sociology, political science, etc.) and only a few are well-versed incross-cultural, international, class or race issues. And yet WS cuts acrossall of these approaches, is a way of viewing everything, a feminist,woman-focussed approach to the world.To me it seems impossible to have a depth of knowledge and skill in everyaspect of WS. There is certainly a core of understanding and methodologythat everyone in the field shares, or should share, but it seems appropriateand realistic for each of us to have a specialty area where we can confrontthe canon and help rework the traditional approaches.As a member of the "old guard" who created WS from within our respectivedepartments, I realize I may be out-of-date or worse. The "new guard" in ourprogram are enthusiastically planning for a full-time position (I'm thrilledat the prospect, too) and intend to advertise for a Ph.D. in WS. I can'thelp but worry that the person who is hired will be isolated and vulnerableif she doesn't have connections elsewhere on campus. I've seen it happen inEthnic Studies, which is a separate department with hiring power but lacksrespect and can't attract the best faculty because of their isolation. Partof the problem surely is discrimination, but similar limitations seem toimpact on individuals and programs in such areas a American Studies orLiberal Studies.After serious soul-searching, I'd still suggest that someone who wants tospecialize in WS carve out a specialty area in which she can work in depth,and I'd also suggest that anyone considering a WS-only position try tonegotiate a joint appointment or some other formal relationship with one ormore other departments. I believe this would strengthen her careeropportunities and the WS program, too.Kathleen Preston, Prof. EmeritaPsychology and Women's StudiesHumboldt State University, Arcata CAKathKnight @ aol.com==========================================================================

The accumulating reports on diverse experience with WS degrees orcertificates in getting jobs suggest strongly that it's a topic to bediscussed at the NWSA conference, with consideration given to an NWSAintiative in respect to employers. beatricebkachuck @ cuny.campus.mci.net===========================================================================

First, going back to an earlier discussion on the history of Women'sStudies programs, Women's Studies at George Washington University will becelebrating the 25th anniversary of our GRADUATE program in the Fall of1997. To our knowledge, we were the first Women's Studies Program togrant an MA degree in Women's Studies (since 1972). I would be curious toknow founding dates of other early graduate degree programs in Women'sStudies.Second, on the advising question: Our M.A. program requires students tohave a 4-course concentration in some discipline (or occasionally in a2nd interdisciplinary field). A number of students who receive ourM.A. in Women's Studies go on to a Ph.D. program in a discipline. Thisseems to be a viable combination for an academic career. (Others pursuenon-academic careers.) We (Women's Studies) also offer an M.A. in PublicPolicy and Women's Studies which requires the same number of Women'sStudies credits as our non-policy M.A., but gives graduates amore marketable degree for some purposes (and some training in economics,statistics, etc.).We have proposed and our waiting for final approval of a Gender andSocial Policy track in the interdisciplinary Public Policy Ph.D. programat George Washington. If approved, this will enable interested studentsto combine Women's Studies with a PhD degree that will make them eligiblefor both academic and non-academic jobs.As a sociologist who has studied labor market restructuring I think it isincreasingly essential for women (and men) to prepare for variouscareer contingencies. For PhD students today in almost any field,planning for possible non-academic as well as academic careerpossibilities is sound advice.Finally, on the question of whether current Women's Studies PhD's aredisadvantaged in applying for Women's Studies jobs, I think part of theproblem may be that Women's Studies slots are still often structured sothat they are joint appointments with some disciplinary department and adepartment has to approve/want the candidate as well as Women's Studies.I would be curious if those Women's Studies programs who have openingsfully in Women's Studies rather than joint are in fact any more likely toseek and hire Women's Studies PhD's.Cynthia DeitchGeorge Washington University=============================================================================

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Katherine Side wrote:[cut]> One way would be to have an open discussion with grad students seeking> employment in WS departments and programmes. We could share information, job> seeking strategies, etc. I know this would be really useful for me, and I> hope others too.I just need to interject, here, that the assumption that "grad students"are the people looking for jobs is not only erroneous, but it seems (tome, at least, and probably because I am undergoing yet another crisisfacing one more year of part-time teaching) to leave out those of us whohave been on the job market for some time.I've been actively seeking jobs on-and-off for five years, now. Ifinished my dissertation in 1992 (Dec.) and started my job search while Iwas ABD--a big mistake, I now know, in terms of my self-esteem. I do notintend this posting to be flaming anyone, nor to be subjecting everyoneelse to my own hypersensitivity, but I could use a bit of help/support, aswell. I know I am not alone in this (although it sure feels that waysometimes). Others' posts on this topic indicate that advice in thecurrent job market would benefit some of us who are no longer graduatestudents.Sorry to whine. This post is offered with all due respect.Jeannie?????????????????????????????what do you see?????????????????????????????"There is great power in being able to see the world as one will and thento have that vision enacted. But if being is seeing for the subject,then being seen is the precise measure of existence for the object." --Patricia J. Williams, from _The Alchemy of Race and Rights_Jeannie Ludlow jludlow @ bgnet.bgsu.edu Ethnic Studies, Women's Studies, Popular Culture???????????????????????????where is your power???????????????????????????===========================================================================