I have been out of the game for over 20 years and just coming back.i have a question about training.when should you train stats for a warrior besides con.i dont want to end up burning skills unnecessarily.i know much has changed since i have played so any info would be appreciated.

One Armed BanditArchMaster Poster

Joined: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 2611

Posted:
Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:20 am

There is still some debate on the topic, but I'll add my two cents.

I rarely burn skills. I will occasionally train CN once or twice or ST once to a number that doesn't provide skills and then I usually have my warriors learn skills until they learn 20 skills in their most important areas (which often doesn't happen until they are in ADM).

Below is a link to a skill chart which tells you which numbers of which attributes provide skills for your warrior (and thus detract from the number of total skills they can learn before Primus):

Burning skills is no longer a detriment to top end performance, however, as warriors in the Primus arena are able to learn back burnt skills. So the decision eventually comes down to one of personal preference. Its a trade-off of short term performance boost at the bottom of basic vs. potential at the top end of basic and in regular ADM.

Happy to see another returning player! Good luck on the sands.

gunsmithUnchartered Poster

Joined: Jul 21, 2014
Posts: 11

Posted:
Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:55 am

thanks glad to be back.i appreciate the help.didnt want to ruin some of the decent rollups i have gotten before i even get started good again.back 20 years ago,im sure i ruined several warriors from skill burn.

One Armed BanditArchMaster Poster

Joined: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 2611

Posted:
Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:07 pm

No problem.

If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask in the forums.

A bunch of players hang out in a Chatzy chat room and talk shop all day and all night. The password to the channel is the name of arena 1, and the link to the room is below:

Joined: Nov 23, 2002
Posts: 8886
Location: on the golf course, in the garden, reading, traveling, and now Consulting

Posted:
Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:29 pm

Perhaps this recently posted spotlight in DM93 will assist you?

SKILLS vs. STATS
Training Is A Very Personal Thing

D2ers often hear a statement similar to this: “Train skills; do not train stats.” The implication or sometimes direct statement is that you will be sorry if you train stats, especially certain stats.

The Consortium opinion is that, in the majority of circumstances, it is perfectly all right and normal to train stats, and in some cases it is better to train stats. (This process of training stats is often called “burning”) The purpose of this presentation is to explore stat and skill training and to give the D2 Manager some ideas as to if, or when, stat training is either aok or best. The article will also explore when it is considered best not to train stats.

First, to set the stage, there are several principles, givens, and ideas that the reader must understand.
1. Skill raining is mostly dependent on WT. (e.g. The higher the wit, the more skills per fight the warrior is likely to learn.
2. Stat training is rather highly dependent upon two things:
a. WL; a warrior’s stat learn probability is 5% times the will. (E.g. a warrior with 10 WL has a (5%x10=50%) 50/50 chance to learn the stat, while a warrior with 15 WL has a 75% chance of learning the stat.
b. The number of stats of that type already trained. A warrior’s learning rate for a specific stat is halved each time he earns one of those stats. For example, a warrior with 10 will has a 50% (5%x10) of earning a first stat of a type, but only a 25% (5%x10 halved) of earning the second stat of that type. ((and on to 12.5% for the third) Realize, however, that it is really 50% for the 1st, 27.5% for the 2nd (since he earned the 1st and is now at 11 WL) and 15% for the 3rd. (Since he had previously bumped the WL to 12)
3. Training most stats also earns the warrior certain skills.
4. There are limits to the number of stats and skills a warrior can have.
a. In basic, a warrior can have no higher that 21 of any stat type.
b. A warrior is limited to earning 20 skills (beyond the initial skills the warrior is “born” with) of each type in his career. Those 20 skills may come from learning skills or from training a stat which gives the warrior one or more of those skills. He is deemed “maxed” when he learns the 20th.
c. A warrior can, however, learn more that 20 skills of a type if he first learns his 20 allowed skills, and then trains stats which give the warrior one of those skills. (This factor is why one often hears “Do not train stats or you will be sorry”.)
5. Certain stats improve the “physicals” of your warrior. (e.g. there is a reasonable possibility that training ST can improve how much damage your warrior does when he hits)

With those principles in mind, one can postulate certain scenarios which might provide a basis for decision-making as to “what to train”. These represent, first, the knowledge necessary, then, The Consortium scenarios for training decision – STATs or SKILLs?

KNOWLEDGE
1 Be aware of the probable skill learn rate. (This is a highly variable number, based on many, many factors of the game, including luck rolls.) (However WT is the primary factor.)
2 Be aware of the stat training probability for that stat
3 Be aware that every thing in D2 has a probable roll or luck factor
4 Be aware of the potential “physical” improvement to your warrior for stat training.
5 Know which stat trains do not provide any skills. (E.g. Raising to 12ST improves the stat, but cannot provide any skills or “burning”, while raising to 15ST improves that stat and provides two “burned” skills – attack and parry.)
6 Determine if that specific warrior will be enhanced by a possibility of earning more than 20 skills of a type. (Example, a warrior that is meant for the long-term, or is deemed to be a near-godling is extremely likely to benefit from the extra skills at high-ADM classes where every warrior is maxed or near maxed in stats and skills and every single skill can make a difference in a fight. A warrior who is expected to be around for a shorter period, or is to be “retired” upon graduation to Lord Protectorship, will not be around long enough to earn and benefit from the few extra skills available.
7 Know which is likely to benefit your warrior most when you decide to train skills of a certain stat. (e.g. How many skills am I likely to learn if I train skills verses the probability of learning that specific stat train and the subsequent physical and skill gain earned.)

CONSORTIUM DECISION MODEL
1. Upon rollup, evaluate each warrior and classify – long-term/godling (GOD), possible long term (UNS), standard warrior – run to graduation.(NRM)
2. Do not train stats on GOD, unless they are non-burning stats.
3. Limit training stats on UNS, unless they are non-burning stats, until it is decided that this warrior is not a GOD.
4. If a NRM, train whatever the manager believes will most enhance the warrior winning fights.
5. When deciding between stat or skill training, compare the probability quantity of skill earning vs. the probable of learning the chosen stat and its potential physical and skill contribution.

Perhaps a couple of Consortium examples are in order. Let’s consider these two warriors” 14-7-12-15-20-14-11 striker and 4-10-11-17-17-4-21 aimed-blow.
Although a solid warrior, the striker would be considered NRM, especially since strikers are not considered likely Primus-level styles. The warrior probably rolled good damage and good endurance. The odds of getting a first stat raise are near 100% (5%x20, but everything has a “luck” roll). The warrior at 15WT should expect to earn nearly two skills per turn (Consortium rates 15WT skill learn rate at 1.75ish) Consortium Managers would plan two immediate “bumps” – WL to 21 and ST to 15. Moving to 21 WL gains seven fine skills (2 each Att, Par, Def and 1 Decise) and enhances physicals a tiny bit. (Adds 0.4 it points and improves endurance a small amount) Training skills would have yielded a probability of two skills, and three if lucky. The choice to train WL is a no-brainer. The 2nd plan train to 15ST is also a good one. At 15 ST, two skills are earned, attack and parry. The 15ST also enhances weapon selection, making the striker now strong enough to carry certain “larger weapons” with no penalty. (The battle axe is an often favored weapon of Consortiumites – and probably should be a favorite of yours.) The 15ST also has the possibility of raising the warrior’s damage rating from good to great. Consortium places this damage bump odds at 4-1, appx 20% likely.) Compared to the probability of learning 2 skills (or an unlucky 1 or a lucky 3) the 15ST raise seems like a good one. There are no more planned raises for this warrior, but that does not preclude that a Consortium manager might not later attempt an additional ST raise to 16 (if great damage was not attained) and a raise to 8 CN, especially if the warrior has a “frail” rating.

Warrior #2, the aimer is rated a GOD. There would be no planned stat raises to the warrior, training skill all the way until maxed. However, there would be no reason not to consider CN raises, as no CN raise burns skills and every aimer can use additional hit points. This choice would need to be balanced against the probability of earning 2.25 skills per turn (Consortium rating). One additional consideration should be given. If this warrior rolled “little damage”, (normal damage is more likely) the bump to 5ST could be what is needed to get normal damage. The raising of that stat “burns” a parry and an attack skill, however. For a long-term warrior, especially an aimer which can use little-damage somewhat effectively, this bump would not be recommended.

In conclusion, there is no absolute when it comes to training skills or stats. Training stats is certainly not a no-no. Burning skills can be inconsequential. Physical and skill gains from stats can greatly enhance the warrior and the W/L record. But, like most other decisions in D2, there is a trade-off. Burning stats on a long-term, ADM+ warrior could prove damaging to the warrior’s long-term health. Choose wisely rather than automatically.

TRUTH: You can't unburn skills (until Primus), but you can always burn them later.

- If there is any question, I will delay my burning of skills.
- Burning is fun and can provide a huge boost on a warrior. I will create warriors specifically intended to burn from day 1 and I will burn guys who need 'help' winning that weren't originally designed to burn. It all depends on my goals with the warrior and team. I also create guys who look like burners, but save those burns for a future bust in ADM. x-x-x-10-20-x-10 is a beautiful set of stats...

VladimerUnchartered Poster

Joined: Jul 15, 2014
Posts: 4

Posted:
Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:58 am

As a (potentially) returning manager, I can't thank everyone on this thread enough. This is some great information and insight into the topic. There are some strategic considerations that I, for one, either have forgotten or had not through enough to realize.

Best,

Vlad

LongshotGrandmaster Poster

Joined: Sep 30, 2012
Posts: 587
Location: Port Moody, BC

Posted:
Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:30 am

Welcome back Gunsmith.

A word of warning; don't mention your situation in any thread that Gentleben and others are calling themselves king. He'll get all bitchy like a mean in a teen movie and tell you that you aren't a king. Never mind that you never said that you were. You can't be part of their clique nor sit at their table during lunch break.

Comeback Valdimer. The game could use you. I wish more old players would come back. [/i]

AdoedeUnchartered Poster

Joined: Aug 03, 2014
Posts: 41

Posted:
Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:48 am

I've also been out of the game since the mid 90's. A bit curious about the discussions here and there regarding potions and such. Does a +1 deftness potion allow you to go beyond your 20 base skills and stat trains? Is it capped at 25?

AdoedeUnchartered Poster

Joined: Aug 03, 2014
Posts: 41

Posted:
Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:49 am

Sorry...duplicate post

The ConsortiumArchMaster Poster

Joined: Nov 23, 2002
Posts: 8886
Location: on the golf course, in the garden, reading, traveling, and now Consulting

Posted:
Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:01 am

Adoede wrote:

I've also been out of the game since the mid 90's. A bit curious about the discussions here and there regarding potions and such. Does a +1 deftness potion allow you to go beyond your 20 base skills and stat trains? Is it capped at 25?

We would like to offer input on your question, but cannot find the "potions and such" discussion on this thread of which you speak.

Perhaps it is a general question?

Potions are very specific, and hard to get, as one must TG (or buy from a TCer) and most do not allow creating an out-of-bounds warrior.

We would like to offer input on your question, but cannot find the "potions and such" discussion on this thread of which you speak.

Perhaps it is a general question?

Potions are very specific, and hard to get, as one must TG (or buy from a TCer) and most do not allow creating an out-of-bounds warrior.

I probably worded things awkwardly. Yes, this was a general question - I just came back to Duel2 and one of the first things that struck me was some random thread about potions and such. I don't ever remember things like that being offered back in the day. But if they're Top tourney prizes like you say, then I probably don't remember them because I never got close to getting a whiff anyway

_Buri_Grandmaster Poster

Joined: Nov 07, 2010
Posts: 853
Location: Asgard

Posted:
Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:56 am

My approach to raising stats has changed a lot over the years. When I first started out and had the system explained to me, I then stopped raising skill stats altogether for a long time. I didn't want to "ruin" any of my warriors (this was in the days before gateway skills). I ended up spending a lot of time and turns getting them to max at 120 before I raised any stats. I actually have one guy (retired) who is a Primus Contender and has never raised one stat! Kind of a failed experiment, I wanted to see what would happen if I got all 150 first, then raised stats.

As time went by and I graduated a lot of warriors, I realized that not ALL of them were going to make it in Primus. A lot of them started getting retired as soon as they graduated. Those are the ones I could easily have raised stats on, if the situation called for it.

Even with the "Keepers", there comes a point where you can go ahead and raise stats before 120, say with a Lunger who has everything but Parry maxed... go ahead and raise those stats, because who cares about parry on a Lunger anyway? Besides, you'll get them back someday if you stick with him long enough.

For the basic guys, I will now make some that are intended to raise stats, aka Burners. I've done some x-x-x-16-16-x-16s, raising those to 17 before a tourney, or a x-x-x-20-9-5-20 AB, or recently a x-x-x-20-17-3-17 SL who raised WT at 9 FE, to go into the Initiates tourney with that boost.

One thing to avoid though, don't make a burner out of a good rollup. There are plenty that come along, that are "almost" good, and make excellent burners.