There's also the false equivalence of "building a bomb" (I can go drop 180 bucks at a wal-mart and walk out of there with a shotgun right now, building a bomb is a bit more complex than that) or "using a knife" (compare the fatalities in the china stabbing to any school shooting on the same scale), to use of a gun.

You also have to conveniently ignore australia, switzerland, and the U.K's success in curbing gun violence with the use of laws._________________

yeah, ok, correlation <> causation, i guess the studies that were cited were just correlative.

but i would guess it makes sense that general gun violence (using guns during things like robberies, rapes, road-rage incidents, family fights, etc.) would track with gun ownership - if you don't have a gun, or have a hard time getting a gun, you are less likely to get money by armed robbery (maybe going for muggings), you use a knife for your rapes, and family arguments end with more slammed doors and holes in walls than holes in people. availability of weapons is separate from underlying causes of violence. so the rising trend in the 60's and 70's may have less to do with the weapon available, and more to do with other things driving violent activity - differences in levels of gang activity/violence, different economic stresses, whatever. whatever the cause - you surely don't dispute that the u.s. is way above everyone else?

mass shootings, though - they seem to me different. and sure, you can quibble about what is or what isn't a mass shooting - but i would bet that, again, whatever your definition - we have more of them than other countries.

but let's look at it the other way - how would increasing the availability of guns help to change these trends around? what evidence can you present that it would change them?

I don't think it has much of an effect either way, guns aren't very hard to acquire even in places with strict gun-laws. If you intend to commit a crime it's easy enough to get a gun anywhere in the world.

I think that gun-laws can only be effective in combination with other legislation that more directly targets the causes behind crime._________________

well, i won't disagree that it would help to reduce all causes of crimes.

i've never actually tried to get a gun so i don't know how hard it is to get one, but i believe there is a bit of correlation between how difficult the laws make it to buy guns and how many people have arsenals. and remember, gun violence covers more than crimes for which people intentionally arm themselves (armed robbery, etc.) - it also includes all those incidental shootings, like during family fights or traffic confrontations or dealing with people who have the nerve to actually text in movie theaters. i don't know whether "gun violence" also includes accidental shootings - but there are lots of shootings that could be avoided if people didn't just happen to have a gun on hand._________________aka: neverscared!
a flux of vibrant matter

well, i won't disagree that it would help to reduce all causes of crimes.

i've never actually tried to get a gun so i don't know how hard it is to get one, but i believe there is a bit of correlation between how difficult the laws make it to buy guns and how many people have arsenals. and remember, gun violence covers more than crimes for which people intentionally arm themselves (armed robbery, etc.) - it also includes all those incidental shootings, like during family fights or traffic confrontations or dealing with people who have the nerve to actually text in movie theaters. i don't know whether "gun violence" also includes accidental shootings - but there are lots of shootings that could be avoided if people didn't just happen to have a gun on hand.

You're right, I was gonna add a bit about that. One of the things the US could easily and obviously do for example is promote education on the dangers of guns to lessen accidental or unintended shootings. And I don't mean "dangers" as in "any gun is likely to go of at any time like a bomb" education but proper education that teaches people how to correctly deal with guns. When I was in Cali and we visited a gun-range there was no emphasis on correct handling (luckily I already knew the rules) and I've heard stories from other people who encounter way too many people who simply don't have a clue about what guns can do and thus handle them dangerously.

If someone has the intent to use a gun in a crime they will be able to get a gun. Even if guns are illegal to own. It's trivially easy to obtain anything illegally, to lessen crime you must make it so that the overwhelming majority of people won't want to commit crimes.

You don't need an arsenal to commit crime. You need a handgun. You need a couple of handguns to commit a mass-shooting._________________

yes - there is a lot that could be done to make having a gun safer for everyone in the vicinity (like training people how to use them, and encouraging them to use things like gun locks and gun safes). the NRA used to promote those sorts of things, but that was a very different NRA._________________aka: neverscared!
a flux of vibrant matter

Joined: 04 Sep 2006Posts: 2417Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject:

mouse wrote:

yes - there is a lot that could be done to make having a gun safer for everyone in the vicinity (like training people how to use them, and encouraging them to use things like gun locks and gun safes). the NRA used to promote those sorts of things, but that was a very different NRA.

From beginner to developing competitor, the NRA Training Department develops safe, ethical, responsible shooters through a network of more than 97,000 instructors and range safety officers, more than 5,700 coaches, and more than 1,800 training counselors. NRA Training Counselors recruit and train instructors to teach NRA's basic firearm courses. NRA Coaches, in turn, develop competitors at the club, high school, collegiate and national levels.

It really isn't in the NRA's best interest to promote unsafe handling of firearms, or even be ambivalent about it.

When I was in Cali and we visited a gun-range there was no emphasis on correct handling (luckily I already knew the rules) and I've heard stories from other people who encounter way too many people who simply don't have a clue about what guns can do and thus handle them dangerously.

This is surprising to me. I've been to a handful of gun ranges and they've always been attentive to the point of paranoia. For instance, no one can be shooting or even handling their gun while you're down range retrieving a target. The gun and ammo have to be transported separately, and can't be loaded until you're at your firing position (regardless of the presence of a safety). They have range masters/attendants that will stop you if you're doing something dangerous, and ask you to leave if you don't listen. In some you can't even turn from looking downrange until you've unloaded your gun and laid it down. Most of the ones I've been to ask if you've handled a gun and will show you how to be safe if you're new or it's been a while.

A shotgun range I was at wouldn't even let you walk around with the gun cocked, it had to be broken open or have the pull slid back if you weren't actively shooting._________________"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman

When I was in Cali and we visited a gun-range there was no emphasis on correct handling (luckily I already knew the rules) and I've heard stories from other people who encounter way too many people who simply don't have a clue about what guns can do and thus handle them dangerously.

This is surprising to me. I've been to a handful of gun ranges and they've always been attentive to the point of paranoia. For instance, no one can be shooting or even handling their gun while you're down range retrieving a target. The gun and ammo have to be transported separately, and can't be loaded until you're at your firing position (regardless of the presence of a safety). They have range masters/attendants that will stop you if you're doing something dangerous, and ask you to leave if you don't listen. In some you can't even turn from looking downrange until you've unloaded your gun and laid it down. Most of the ones I've been to ask if you've handled a gun and will show you how to be safe if you're new or it's been a while.

A shotgun range I was at wouldn't even let you walk around with the gun cocked, it had to be broken open or have the pull slid back if you weren't actively shooting.

Every trap/skeet club I've been in requires you to keep the action open at all times, you only load, close, and shoulder when it's your turn, just before you yell 'pull'.

Also, a lot of pistol/rifle ranges out here will hand out lifetime bans for unsafe behavior. They also keep on the lookout for prohibited magazines (modified high-cap magazines) and prohibited firearms (unregistered pistols, illegal modifications like sawed off barrels/stocks, etc) and they will call the police if they suspect your firearms aren't legal._________________Whatever happened to the heroes?

When I was in Cali and we visited a gun-range there was no emphasis on correct handling (luckily I already knew the rules) and I've heard stories from other people who encounter way too many people who simply don't have a clue about what guns can do and thus handle them dangerously.

This is surprising to me. I've been to a handful of gun ranges and they've always been attentive to the point of paranoia. For instance, no one can be shooting or even handling their gun while you're down range retrieving a target. The gun and ammo have to be transported separately, and can't be loaded until you're at your firing position (regardless of the presence of a safety). They have range masters/attendants that will stop you if you're doing something dangerous, and ask you to leave if you don't listen. In some you can't even turn from looking downrange until you've unloaded your gun and laid it down. Most of the ones I've been to ask if you've handled a gun and will show you how to be safe if you're new or it's been a while.

A shotgun range I was at wouldn't even let you walk around with the gun cocked, it had to be broken open or have the pull slid back if you weren't actively shooting.

I figure it varies from place to place. In Vegas we had a guy with us who was very strict about it (a good thing) and watched and helped whenever there was trouble.

That range in California wasn't the unsafest place. They had the rules up and the guy behind the counter could also look through a window at us to check. And we mostly knew the rules so left the guns at the position point but I still remember my sister in law swinging what I think was a model 500 of some kind around because she wanted to know what to do with it after shooting. Still it was only after another gun jammed that I knocked and got the attention of the guy behind the glass for a little help. He wasn't really watching._________________

Joined: 04 Sep 2006Posts: 2417Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:58 am Post subject:

If you're looking for a large black man driving a blue or green truck, it's a reasonable mistake to intentionally ram a black truck and shoot at a skinny white guy driving it.

Quote:

A Torrance police officer made a “reasonable mistake” when he shot at a Redondo Beach surfer during the chaotic manhunt for rogue Los Angeles police officer Christopher Dorner last year and will not face criminal charges, the District Attorney’s Office said in a report released Tuesday.

Officer Brian McGee acted in “an atmosphere of fear and extreme anticipation” when he purposely rammed David Perdue’s pickup truck and fired at least three shots at him on Feb. 7, 2013, mistakenly believing Dorner was at the wheel. The bullets missed Perdue, who has filed a lawsuit against the city of Torrance.

“McGee’s belief that Dorner was driving the truck was reasonable,” prosecutors said in ruling the shooting was justified.

yes - there is a lot that could be done to make having a gun safer for everyone in the vicinity (like training people how to use them, and encouraging them to use things like gun locks and gun safes). the NRA used to promote those sorts of things, but that was a very different NRA.

From beginner to developing competitor, the NRA Training Department develops safe, ethical, responsible shooters through a network of more than 97,000 instructors and range safety officers, more than 5,700 coaches, and more than 1,800 training counselors. NRA Training Counselors recruit and train instructors to teach NRA's basic firearm courses. NRA Coaches, in turn, develop competitors at the club, high school, collegiate and national levels.

It really isn't in the NRA's best interest to promote unsafe handling of firearms, or even be ambivalent about it.

well, they also used to agree that promoting gun safety could include things like not giving just anyone a concealed carry permit (or even a gun)._________________aka: neverscared!
a flux of vibrant matter

If you're looking for a large black man driving a blue or green truck, it's a reasonable mistake to intentionally ram a black truck and shoot at a skinny white guy driving it.

Quote:

A Torrance police officer made a “reasonable mistake” when he shot at a Redondo Beach surfer during the chaotic manhunt for rogue Los Angeles police officer Christopher Dorner last year and will not face criminal charges, the District Attorney’s Office said in a report released Tuesday.

Officer Brian McGee acted in “an atmosphere of fear and extreme anticipation” when he purposely rammed David Perdue’s pickup truck and fired at least three shots at him on Feb. 7, 2013, mistakenly believing Dorner was at the wheel. The bullets missed Perdue, who has filed a lawsuit against the city of Torrance.

“McGee’s belief that Dorner was driving the truck was reasonable,” prosecutors said in ruling the shooting was justified.

that was also when police shot two small asian women in a white truck. thinking they were dorner.

...i guess this means that at least they weren't doing racial profiling? _anyone_ might actually secretly be a large black man! you can't tell these things just by looking!_________________aka: neverscared!
a flux of vibrant matter