Would an independent Quebec sign an IGA?

As the initial shock wears off and the first emotional responses to Canada’s signing of an IGA with the US begin to coalesce into well-written, detailed submissions, Charter challenge fundraising and myriad other signs of a growing and sophisticated anti-FATCA movement, it is worth taking a moment to pay attention to what is currently happening in Quebec.

The drumbeat of yet another referendum is beginning to be heard, carried now by powerful voices like that of Pierre Karl Peladeau, a true Quebec oligarch who has now fully and publicly embraced the separatist cause. Despite the obvious concerns about conflict of interest as a campaigning politician who just happens to control most of the media pie in Quebec, Mr. Peladeau seems determined to put his money where his mouth is and champion separatism in a manner which will no doubt be unprecedented in Quebec politics.

Against this backdrop, it is interesting to consider how these two stories will inevitably intersect, since they both deal with fundamental questions about self-determination, national sovereignty and the democratic process. Meanwhile there is a vast ticking FATCA time bomb for Quebec which the PQ so far seems to be blissfully unaware of, but which it will have to deal with head-on if it truly believes it is Quebec’s destiny to become a sovereign nation.

A Full Comment article in today’s National Post focusses on the splash that Mr. Peladeau has already made and how it is clear that while he may be a most savvy and ruthless CEO, he still has much to learn about the realities of politics and the campaign trail. He and the PQ will also soon learn more about the realities of their would-be nation’s position in the rest of the world, especially in relation to the United States.

I contributed this comment to the discussion and encourage others to add their own voices, not only to this article but to others detailing the upcoming Quebec election. It is time for Canadians and Quebecers to fully understand how FATCA threatens ALL of our dreams and aspirations:

So now that Canada has signed an IGA (Intergovernmental Agreement) with the United States, essentially ceding Canadian financial sovereignty to the US, I wonder how the newly-emboldened PQ plans to deal with the growing FATCA crisis. It’s one thing to tell Canadians to take a hike, but the Americans will be a whole other “pair of sleeves”, as our Francophone neighbours say.

I know, you’re thinking, what does this have to do with anything? Well, not only Canadians, but Quebecers too will soon find out when FATCA officially and ironically begins on July 1st, 2014. There are probably tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Quebecers living in the Eastern Townships who were so-called “border babies”, born in US hospitals in New York, Vermont and New Hampshire who are actually American citizens, whether they realize it or not.

These people will now have their financial information reported by their banks to the CRA, which will then forward the information to the American IRS. Years of unreported earnings may result in ruinous financial penalties, taxes and professional fees for these unsuspecting people. Oh, and the 75,000 pages of the US tax code are only available in English, by the way. It will be VERY interesting to see what pretzel logic the PQ comes up with when it comes time to discuss this slumbering giant of an international crisis. If Quebec really wants to become an independent nation, this will be one of its first great tests. Canada’s Conservative government failed it miserably, so let’s see if Quebec’s does any better.

@Don
Nice ideas. I’ve always thought the US consulates would be one of the best places for such protests.

I agree about the lingo. Establishing a meme with a negative connotation can be very effective. If possible, it should be using their own terminology. Exposing an absurd statement is often as simple as simply repeating it in the proper tone of voice or proper context.

How are these for T-Shirt slogans?Beware. YOU could be a “US person“.Think you’re not a “US person“? Think again!

Or how about a protest at a border crossing point?Welcome to the USA. Warning: you may be classified as a “US person“. Enter at your own risk!

I think “US person” could do the job. It has something sneaky and deceitful about it. It just sounds wrong and should make people wonder why they just don’t say “American”.

@Deckard1138, This is an excellent post, and as you know, I was already beginning to think along these lines. What will happen? For sure, the separatists can use the FATCA capitulation as a pretext to support their own sovereignty movement. However, an independent Quebec has no choice but to capitulate to the demands of the US. For one thing, the independent Quebec would be on the verge of constant economic default–it is already a province with very serious debt problems, and a socialist government that is not favorable to industry. They would not be able to sustain a broken relationship with both English Canada and with the USA. Thus, they will choose what the majority will see as the lesser of two evils: les anglais americains. This will be one step from annexation as far as I am concerned. Canada can stand against US aggression better as one rather than as two countries.

I agree with Petros. Quebec doesn’t stand a chance against the US on its own. And what they see as a step towards sovereignty is really the first step towards being absorbed by the US.

I am reminded of a tv movie I watched about the beginnings of confederation in Canada. There is a scene with Sir John A arguing with his cabinet about raising funds for a militia to demonstrate to the British that Canada could carry their own weight a bit in terms of defense against the US. Cartier tells John A that he won’t force his French bloc to vote for it even though it means that the Americans might invade and absorb Canada.

Sir John A is furious and he points out to Cartier that while the Americans might treat the French-Canadians well, they certainly won’t do it in French.

Quebec is foolish to cling to this idea that they are so put upon that they must separate. Compared to what would have happened to them had they not pursued confederation with the other British North America colonies, Canada has been a pretty good deal for them in terms of preserving those things that matter most to them. As part of the US, they would be unrecognizable as French today and if they separate, they are participating in their own eventual demise.

Pierre Karl Peladeau emergence now seems to me as though some in Quebec are longing for the days of Duplessis and a suppression of the perfectly normal changes that time and progress modernity bring.

In terms of Canada though people seem not to be thinking about how the loss of Quebec will change our govt. How many NDP and Liberal MPs come from Quebec? What is their loss going to mean for us when suddenly the balance shifts even more heavily conservative?

Personally, I would mourn the loss of Quebec. French Canada is where we begin as a country and they were crucial to the development of responsible govt and in many ways to the character of Canadians. Their influence is part of what makes us not-American and in my opinion, the concessions made in terms of language, religious and education rights during confederation and since is part of the bedrock that saved our political system and our govt from taking the suicidal turns that American has taken in terms of governance.

If there is any $ left in the CCCF kitty, maybe invest $ in a professionally translated (by a Quebec business translation service) French language letter, news release, and fact sheet pleading the case against the FATCA IGA. Send this to PQ, the Bloc, and Quebec media outlets.

I suspect the FATCA IGA issue has almost zero visibility there. If its positioned as an infringement on Quebec’s sovereignty by the heavy hand of the Harper government, it may invoke a response.

Members National Assembly of Quebec outgoing members (election next months) email addresses…….Please use ASAP

Calling all French Speaking members. Now is the time to let Quebec MNA’s how Harper has ALREADY destroyed Canada, explain why and how and tell the MNA’s to reply to media charges that the PQ will destroy Canada with a big belly laugh as they reply to to the media with info on Harper’s traitorous activities

@Don
Yes, I like your idea of having a group meet in Toronto in front of the major bank buildings, handing out W*-BENS and fliers. Maybe we should do this the week before July 1, with placards saying things like “We Are Not Tax Cheats” and “US Persons should not be second class Canadian citizens” and “Are you sure you aren’t a US Person?” and “Flarahty has sold us out” The T-shirts are a neat idea too. Maybe a gathering of this kind in front of the Parliament Buildings in Ottawa and/or in front of MP offices across the country?

The whole Quebec and America issue is fairly complex. I have never really discussed it here as it is largely irrelevant to most of our past discussions. The one area where Quebec might have a case that have been treated better by the Americans is that back in the 1930s the provincial government in Ontario under premier Mitch Hepburn was hostile to developing hydro electric power in Quebec. This was related to the famous Beauharnois scandal. The US or more particularly the six New England states(Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Masssachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island) were VERY favorable to Quebec developing extensive hydro power and unlike Ontario were willing to help Quebec finance it too thru power purchase agreements. At this point in time New England had long exhausted all of its own hydro resources and were bleeding heavy industry to other parts of the US. Thus too this day most Quebec hydro power is exported to New England NOT Ontario thanks to Ontario premier Mitch Hepburn.

*History buffs may remember during the War of 1812 there was a fairly serious attempt by some in the six New England states to secede from the US and “rejoin” British North America. In a totally outside the box way perhaps the most sensible solution would be for Quebec, the Atlantic provinces, and New England to all secede from Canada and the US respectively and form a new country “Atlantica”.

OK, off topic a bit, but I think the recruitment of Pierre Karl Peladeau into the PQ party has the potential to backfire big-time on them. The PQ is historically stacked with (often radical) leftist socialists, whereas PKP has a lengthy track record of destroying unions. After all, he’s a (gasp) successful businessman. I say this as someone quite familiar with Quebec-think.

To my earlier point. I don’t think there is a realistic of the separatists actually winning a referendum in Quebec however, not to be too partisan there is a very really problem that Harper and the Conservatives do not appear to be all that interested in Canada east of the Ottawa River(This goes beyond Quebec and into the Maritimes). I think if the Conservatives were seen as being more sympathetic to East of the Ottawa River the odds of a successful referendum would be much lower.

*As a matter of policy I think the Conservatives do resent the dependency of Quebec and Atlantic Canada on equalization. An interesting dichotomy is New England is the wealthiest part of the US but Atlantic Canada is the poorest part of Canada.

Taxation is a sovereignty issue for any autonomous nation, and so would seem an important area for those who seek a sovereign Quebec. I don’t know how accurate a source this is below, but this excerpt struck me in terms of FATCA and US CBT as foisted on Quebec as a sovereignty issue:

“……..The PQ definition of sovereignty was first set out in a white paper before the 1980 referendum. It was subsequently accepted by the Bélanger-Campeau commission and the National Assembly used it in the 1991 referendum legislation. According to this definition, Quebec sovereignty means:

all taxes in Quebec are collected by the Quebec government;
all laws in Quebec are drafted by the National Assembly; and
all international treaties and agreements involving Quebec are negotiated by the Quebec government and ratified by the National Assembly.

The flip side of the coin is that the Canadian government would no longer collect taxes from a sovereign Quebec. Canadian laws wouldn’t have legal force anymore in Quebec. And Canadian treaties and agreements would no longer bind Quebec. In a word, from a Canadian point of view, Quebec would be as separate a country as the United States or Mexico………” http://www.global-economics.ca/dth.chap2.htm

Also,
“…….. the poll did reveal that a majority (79%) of Quebecers still desired to achieve more autonomy. The number one area of autonomy that those polled had hoped for was with regard to culture at 34%, the next highest areas of autonomy cherished were the economy at 32%, taxation at 26%, and immigration and the environment at 15% each.[23]”

,,,,”The Parti Québécois defines sovereignty as the power for a state to levy all its taxes, vote on all its laws, and sign all its treaties (as mentioned in the 1980 referendum question).”……..

….”An English translation of part of the Sovereignty Bill reads, “We, the people of Quebec, declare it our own will to be in full possession of all the powers of a state; to levy all our taxes, to vote on all our laws, to sign all our treaties and to exercise the highest power of all, conceiving, and controlling, by ourselves, our fundamental law.”..”….

Tax treaties exist between Québec and France, as well as between Canada and several other countries. The purpose of such treaties is to ensure that people do not pay income tax on the same income in two different countries. Although Québec is not a party to the tax treaties signed by Canada, certain provisions of these treaties are taken into account in Québec’s tax legislation.

The Canada Revenue Agency’s International Tax Services Office can provide additional information on such treaties and agreements.

If Canada or Québec has not signed a tax treaty with the country in which you earned your income, you cannot claim a deduction for income exempt under a tax treaty on your income tax return. However, the foreign income tax you paid may entitle you to the foreign tax credit.”

Quebec never signed the Charter to begin with. Although they would and do enjoy whatever ( now dubious ) protections it may afford.
Separation ,I believe, will never succeed no matter how many separatist parties win elections in Quebec. It is all about the land.
The Native Indians own 95% of it and they said the last time they were going nowhere so asked Quebec just what land were they going to use.
Not to mention the cost to buy their way out would be ruinous.
Regardless, at this point they ARE a part of Canada and their rights are being tramped on in a foreign language, from a foreign country.
Just because the rest of us speak the language we do not speak the language of IRS Tax Code. It is not intended for us to understand it is only intended that everyone complies. Damn their eyes.

Would an independent Quebec sign an IGA?
Well, here is a bigger question: Would a Quebec citizen be allowed to relinquish its Canadian citizenship? The Canadian Conservative government would establish CBT for all residents abroad in Québec only, and make the relinquishing impossible to afford with special tax code rules impossible to understand and not because it would be written in English only…The penalty for not filing would be ludicrous. The compliance industry would pray on all and ….civil war would start..!!!!

Sorry, let’s not exaggerate. That’s ridiculous. No country in the world would ever do that !!! This is just a bad dream.

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