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Arguing with Trumpists is exhausting.

I should know better than to argue with Trump supporters on Twitter or anywhere else. Several other people were involved in this thread. I have called them Person A, B, etc. The Trump supporter is called “Trumpist” and I’m just “ME.” This is the kind of twisted logic we are up against.

Thread Starter: With Trump’s base showing strong preferences for authoritarianism, and continuing to support a serial predator of children [Roy Moore], it’s time to look this problem in its face. 1/ (first post in a long thread)

Trumpist: YOU are the ENEMY… you are the bad guy. Christians like me are fighting progressives like you with all our hearts. We just want to live with our traditional values without scum like you trying to push ‘progressive” bs on kids like my nephew. 😡😡😡😡

ME: Well fine but then why are you evangelicals trying to shove your religious agenda down OUR throats. And that is precisely what’s happening. To your side religious freedom only means the freedom to enforce your beliefs on everyone else.

Trumpist: because GOD wants you to inherit the Kingdom which is Heaven but you can not do that with this Progressive agenda. LGBT is a sin, coveting one’s neighbor is a sin=jealousy of the rich,

ME: First of all, I think you are wrong. My God doesn’t operate that way (and I *am* a Christian). Second of all, we have FREE WILL and should have the ability to choose our own eternal fate, not under the duress of theocrats and authoritarians who want complete control.

ME (continuing): Also we are not JEALOUS of the rich. We see a few billionaire oligarchs taking everything away from average people and actively TRYING to make our lives difficult. They have NO empathy. Most of them aren’t even Christians. The Kochs are atheists, FFS. Greed is IMMORAL.

ME (continuing): I suggest you read the Gospels, esp. the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew to see how Jesus actually expects Christians to behave. You guys are the false prophets we were warned about. Twisting Christianity to support your own selfish, immoral, sociopathic agenda.

ME (continuing): Coveting your neighbor? How about ROY MOORE coveting underage CHILDREN? And defending the rapist of a FOUR YEAR OLD? Huh? Explain how that squares with your hate filled brand of “Christianity.” The party of family values, my ass.

Person A (replying to Trumpist): so, you essentially want the same as ISIS then?

ME (to Person A): The dominionists do. They have much in common with ISIS and the Taliban, just substitute Islam with Christianity and it’s the same damn thing.

Person B (also replying to Trumpist): What values? Pedophilia?

Person A: If you want a fucking theocracy, go live in Iran or Saudi Arabia and leave this country alone. We have SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HERE. If you don’t like it, get out. (accompanying ISIS/GOP comparison meme posted)

Person C: You most assuredly have this backwards. Christians like you are attempting to require non-believers, and other religions to live according to your values because you are afraid that your belief system is so weak that it cannot hold if kids are exposed to other ideals. 1/ (beginning of a new thread)

Person D: Hint: allowing other views to exist is not “pushing” them on you. It’s what is required for a free and democratic society. This tweet right here basically demonstrates the authoritarian instinct the thread us talking about.

Person E: Why are you fighting progress?

Person F: So, “traditional” values like bigotry, hatred and supporting pedophiles? Good luck with that. You disgrace Christianity with every word out of your mouth and Jesus rebukes you.

ME: I just retweeted that hideous reply from TRUMPIST because it’s a PERFECT example of what’s wrong with America. The theocrats and dominionists want complete control and apparently do not believe in FREE WILL.

TRUMPIST (replying to everyone): gays are wrong, period. Killing babies is wrong, period. There isn’t anything wrong with praying in school. WRONG! We want those rich people to invest in America since they have the means, we don’t want war, some sense of morality in govt, what rights have women lost since the election?

ME: You really don’t get it, do you? I give up. Bye.

ME: (not replying to anyone in thread, which I left): Why am I wasting my day arguing with Trump supporters and religious nutcases? It’s an exercise in futility and exhausting af. Now I have to take a nap.

I slept for about 4 hours after that conversation and then spent the rest of the day feeling depressed and deflated, no energy at all. It’s amazing the oxygen sucking effect these zealots have on us. Of course, it might be more emotionally draining to those of us who suffered narcissistic abuse and who find Trump (and his apologists) personally triggering. We have to be careful to take breaks and replenish. But sometimes I wonder, how are we going to win when there are so many people (like a whole third of the country) who simply deny facts and who logic, reason, and even a simple sense of right and wrong simply doesn’t work on?

I think I’ve figured out their obstinacy. There are a great many people in the United States who WANT an authoritarian president, who WANT theocracy and WANT to be told exactly what to do. They WANT draconian laws for those groups of people they dislike. It satisfies their hatred and fear of those who aren’t like them. They don’t even care if those same laws hurt them too (which they will). As long as they get to see the people they hate suffer.

I’ve heard far too many Trump supporters actually gloat about how they love to “trigger the liberals.” They don’t care how morally bankrupt a leader is, as long as he is upsetting or threatening the “Others” they don’t like (who they see as the real threat). They joke about “liberal tears.” There’s something sadistic and even sociopathic in this mindset, which is common in people with authoritarian personalities who are drawn to other authoritarian types. Conversely, I don’t know any anti-Trumpists who enjoy upsetting or triggering Trump supporters. In fact, most avoid it. If we argue with them, we’re just trying to get through, for all the good that’s going to do. You hope you at least planted a seed somewhere. But sometimes it feels like scattering seeds into the Sahara Desert.

There are also many people who find thinking for themselves and making their own life choices simply too stressful and/or challenging, so they prefer an authoritarian father figure who tells them exactly what to do and thereby removes the burden of having to make too many choices or do their own thinking. It’s also people like this who are attracted to authoritarian leaders and authoritarian religions. It’s actually comforting to them. These people may have problems with codependency and don’t realize it.

I also just read this peripherally-related, but VERY important, article about the death of Christianity in America. At first I thought it was just another brainless screed from the evangelical far right, but it’s actually a very well thought out essay about how the alliance between the evangelicals and the far right is actually destroying real Christianity in our country. The evangelical excuses (bordering on idolatry) for Donald Trump and now their defense of a child molester and sexual predator like Roy Moore is the end-game, at least for Christian evangelism. They have sold their souls for political gain and power.

Up is down, wrong is right, greed is godly, pedophilia is okay, compassion is evil, the rich and powerful will inherit the earth (and heaven too), God hates the poor and vulnerable, black is white, oppression is good, tolerance is bad, UGHHHH! It’s crazymaking gaslighting and LIES! I need to read “1984” again.

Fear really is the mind killer, and those people are desperately afraid. One of the most attractive ways to deny fear is to act to make somebody else afraid. But, to be able to do that one must suppress the knowledge that “there but for grace am I”, empathy, and make the “enemy” entirely other. What is exhausting about interacting with them is twofold. One part is that they are not actually listening, but responding to triggers and what they imagine you to be. From that comes the sense of futility of the effort. The other part is that they are trying to frighten you and you are fighting to keep that fear sufficiently at bay to be able to still think more or less straight. No, its threefold. The third part is that their pain and fear is so clear, indeed their panic to keep out any contrary idea, that our empathy cannot but know their suffering from which we can’t show them a way out. Its no wonder you needed a nap.

Amen! Arguing with one of these ignorant fools is exactly like arguing with my narcissistic mother or ex. They do NOT listen, do not WANT to hear what you say, and gaslight, project, blame shift, and twist around facts and your own beliefs so they bear no resemblance to what you are actually trying to get across!
It’s crazymaking.

Exactly. And dogmatism, of whatever sort, is a defense against learning and even against the idea of being in a learning context. Worse, it presumes that you are also not in a learning context and so can only be condemned as a lost cause.

I’ve been listening for a good part of the afternoon to a conversation from the 1970s between Gregory Bateson and Carl Rogers, in which the subjects of learning, contexts, and character figure prominently.

We really need to bring back a reverence for education, and provide ways for the marginalized (including marginalized whites) to obtain a real liberal arts education (not just trade or job training). I read an interesting thread this morning that the reason a lot of working class/rural/southern whites hate the educated and are suspicious of education is because they are actually resentful that it’s out of reach for them. It’s really a “sour grapes” attitude. “If I can’t have it, then it sucks anyway and no one should have it.” I believe this.

In the rural and southern areas some of them live in, teachers are poorly paid and often not even unionized. So teaching jobs tend to attract the worst qualified people. No wonder the parents turn to home schooling, and I have no love of home schooling and am not a supporter of it, especially when it’s done by evangelical parents who want to keep kids from learning about science, etc. Being homeschooled by evangelical parents, of course, only breeds more ignorance. Or perhaps, for some, rebellion? We can hope.

If i get started on the problem of the utterly misguided idea that religion and science cannot both be true, each within their own realm of understanding, its a major rant. It may be the most damaging doctrine the radical evangelicals have going.

I feel so sad for the science deniers who think science can’t be true because it doesn’t square with whatever they read in the Bible. To me, knowing how old the universe and the earth actually is, and contemplating the wonders of its vastness and the way God used evolution as a tool for the advancement of species is very, very spiritual to me, and so much more awe-inspiring than a 6000 year old earth and that we all came from two people who were molded out of clay. To me, the awesomeness of science is proof to me that there definitely is a God who could create something so vast and complex. The biblical literalists also miss the fact that a great many scientists were and are also very religious people who do believe in God.

That’s not to say, the Adam and Eve story (and other Bible stories) doesn’t have great meaning because it does.
I think Genesis and Adam and Eve is an allegory about Man becoming sentient (self aware) and therefore losing the innocence we had when we were more like the animals and lacked that self awareness. With self awareness comes shame and guilt, and therefore sin. Animals cannot sin because they lack the ability to self reflect and feel shame/guilt. (although I’m convinced many dogs and primates actually do!) I could go on about what else I think the story means (and why I can’t accept it as a literal historical document), but I’ll stop there. I made my point.

One more thing — If God didn’t want us to THINK, why would he have given us a BRAIN?

Newton, among others was very clear that he saw science as a window to the glory of God and understanding the mind of God. I often see devout scientists as answering the challenge delivered to Job out of the Whirlwind. “Dost thou know …”

Oh, thank you for posting this. I’m going to read it now.
There are conservatives in my family too, though I’m not in contact with most of my family so have been able to avoid arguing politics with them. However, I have had to block a few FB friends because I couldn’t abide all the pro-Trump memes and propaganda they were posting. This is something new for me this year. I never had to do that with people until Trump. That’s how divided we’ve become. Long time friendships and even marriages have been breaking up over this.

I know, it’s crazy sad. I’ve had to become more cautious about striking up conversation with strangers since last year. That’s what I loved about being at the diner–people were often friendly and we could chat. Suddenly, it didn’t seem all that pleasant–too many potential eggshells.

One chief problem with ‘ye fully-owned witch-slave’ (i.e. trumpist) is that he presumes that our ‘real-life arch-witches’ are inclined to help anyone but ‘themselves and their tools’.

Anyone outside of that tiny circle is ‘a tool, a toy, a meal, or an enemy.’

Right now, our ‘bandersnatch-follower’ is a ***tool*** – a means to his betters’ ends. In due time – should he remain deluded – he will become a ***meal***. He will then be devoured, and his lords will delight in his suffering as he is digested. Should his delusions desert him, he will become an ***enemy*** – and be destroyed without remorse. Toys – good question. The highest portions of the dominance hierarchy have ***no*** use for toys, as everything they do is a most-serious business.

There is something about being/becoming exceedingly powerful that causes many people to develop thinking and behavior that resembles that found in psychopathy/ malignant narcissism – and one of the few documented antidotes is ‘eating the grass of humiliation’ like Nebuchadnezzar in the book of Daniel.

Somehow, that’s likely to be uncommon with our current crop of ***witches***. (Unconscious witches – but when someone acts like a witch, they ***are*** one.) I think there will be vast forests of curse-trees (crucifixion by devils) before this mess plays its last cards.