It isn't a question of recouping costs, it's a matter of creating a new property that generates revenues now and into the future. In the case of OUATIA, we are now 28 years into the life of its copyright. Copyright laws vary from country to country, of course, but I don't think there is anyplace where copyright is granted in perpetuity. Copyrights always expire. Rights holders are therefore happy when a new property is created that effectively extends the life of their copyright. The new "Restoration" cut or whatever they're going to call it is going to have a copyright life that begins in 2012.

It is naive to think that the 229 minute version will always be available to us. Anyone who has watched what Beatrice Welles has been up to with her father's films knows that rights holders can suppress earlier versions of a film in favor of a later "restoration." In our future world of streaming video, when DVD players are no longer being manufactured, the version of a film that you will be able to watch is the one the rights holders will have chosen for you.

(Intellectual Property Law never interested me and I don't know anything about it. Anyway...)

I truly believe that the motivation of the people involved in the OUATIA restoration -- Leone's children, Scorcese and the Film Foundation -- is to truly restore this film to what Sergio Leone wanted. Scorcese has made film restoration his life's work (in addition to his own filmmaking, of course); his Film Foundation has restored over 500 films already. I'd doubt that they make much, if any, money off it. It is Scorcese's passion, as a lifelong lover of the cinema. They even needed contributions from Gucci; if this was a project that would have been believed to be profitable, they wouldn't need charitable contributions; they would have gotten funding from a major studio. The fact that no studio wanted to get behind this as a business venture, and it instead had to be done through charitable foundations dedicated to film preservation, should tell you all you need to know about how financially profitable they believed this venture would be.

And Leone's children knew how this was their father's life's work; it took up more than a decade of his life, and he put his entire heart and soul into it, and I can't imagine how devastated he must have been when the movie was butchered. Yes, I believe that the people involved in this restoration are motivated by the desire to restore the movie to what Sergio wanted.

Of course, there is a need to recoup costs. Of course, I am sure they would love to make a profit on it if possible, and there is nothing wrong with that. As much as you may be interested in a project, you don't have limitless funds for it; there is no way the Film Foundation could have restored over 500 movies without I guess getting some money back, and through contributions and donations from outside parties; even if something is a labor of love, it can't bankrupt you.

So the bottom line is that while in a perfect world, of course they would love to make back the money they put into it, or perhaps even make a profit, I believe 100% beyond any doubt whatsoever that what motivated Scorcese and the Leone children to do this was the interest in seeing this great movie restored to what Sergio wanted. If anyone believes that the reason this restoration was done was just to get a few bucks, what can I tell you, I can't possibly disagree with you more on that.

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As for the issue of whether the 229MV will always be available: it's true, we don't know what the viewing formats of home entertainment will be in the future. But I believe that as long as there is a market for a product, it will be available commercially. (And as long as there are those with a big enough interest in a product and the willingness to support it charitably, it will be available even if not economically profitable). I don't think that this restoration -- whether it remains at the current 24 extra minutes, or whether they find another 20 minutes ultimately bringing the new version to more tahn four and a half hours -- will completely supplant the 229MV anytime soon, especially if the difference in quality of the restored scenes is as drastic as we now believe it is. And even if some format like video streaming completely overtakes dvd's sometime soon, you can always keep your dvd player and the dvd's you own. I still have a VCR for some videotapes that i had when i was younger; one day maybe I'll be able to transfer them all to dvd, but for now I still have the tapes and the VCR. They are still selling VCR's -- only in combination with a dvd player, but still, they are selling them. Many people still have records and record players. Even when a new format overtakes an old one, it takes decades and decades for the old one to completely vanish. And as time goes by we get more and more video technology that people can do in their own home, more and more "fan edits," and anything that is not available commercially is still available to hardcore fans and anyone who makes an interest in it. Nobody can know the future, but dj, I would be happy to make a bet with you right now that the 229MV will be available to anyone who wants it in 20 years from now. If we are still on The Sergio Leone Web Board and on speaking terms on May 22, 2032, let's check back with each other and see if the 229MV of OUATIA is available. The loser has to buy the winner a copy of the version of of OUATIA of their choosing, in the format of their choosing, from all the versions and formats available at that time

« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 11:13:08 AM by drinkanddestroy »

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I really would like to see the additional love scene between Young Noodles and Young Deborah.

This is another plot point that IMO is seriously flawed in the 229MV, though I don't think I ever mentioned it here: So we see Noodles and Deborah making out in the store, where she tells him that although she loves him, he will always be a two-bit punk and therefore he can never be her man. And indeed, then Max calls him out, he gets beaten up, and then she refuses to open the door to let him back in. So she has made the decision: as much as I have feelings for him, I will not live my life with a gangster, and I am locking you out of my life. Okay.

The next time we see Noodles and Deborah is when he gets out of prison: she comes to see him in the speakeasy, and says she had been counting the days for him to get out of prison. And later on their date, she speaks with great emotion about how he is the only one whom she ever truly cared about or something like that.

This is very inconsistent: first, we see Young Deborah locking Noodles out of her life; then, once he gets out, suddenly we see that she really had great feelings for him?!!!!!! That is really a major hole for me.Therefore, when, on their big date, she speaks with great emotion about how he is the only one that she truly cared about, I never ever found that convincing. I always say to myself, "come on, you locked him out of your life long ago!" it makes no sense why after locking him out of her life, she would be counting the days for him to get out of prison and then speaking about how much she cares for him. So while I always understood how Noodles had this crazy obsession with her for all these years, I was never convinced as to her having the same deep feelings for him. IMO A major flaw on an important point of the movie.

HOWEVER, if there is a love scene with the two of them as children that occurs after the part where she locked him out of her life, then this all makes sense! That would show that even though the rational side of her said she was finished with him, she had these deep feelings for him and she went back to him; so at the time he was arrested, they were indeed together. So IMO having another Young Noodles&Deborah love scene occur after the scene where she locks him out, is extremely important for me.

As we've discussed many times, there are many plot points that aren't quite explained properly in this movie, and some of them are fixed with the restored scenes: (eg. how Noodles meets Eve, why Noodles cares so much about the Bailey scandal on the news, etc.) But this point I've discussed here about the love between Noodles-Deborah is as crucial as any of the other holes in the 229MV; without it, I never saw any justification for shy she would care about him so much. So I would be absolutely thrilled if this scene will be put back into the movie. It is not among the scenes that were shown at Cannes, but it seems quite possible, based on the quotes by Scorcese I've seen in the articles posted and translated here, that they may restore more scenes (if they can find them). While I hope that they find and restore all of the approximately 25 minutes that are still missing from the version shown at Cannes 2012, this love scene is IMO one of the most important.

(I'd also like to see ALL of the scenes with Eve; some were restored so far, but not all. It works better if they are all restored).

« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 10:25:40 PM by drinkanddestroy »

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Without being cynical, I don't what to think of this, to tell you the truth. It's always nice that a great film gets attention so it's not forgotten, but sometimes I wish they would just have these extra scenes as a bonus on the DVD. "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" is kind of ruined for me with the new scenes they put in (thankfully, you can skip right over them). From what I've read (and who knows what to believe) Leone was happy with the 4 hour version of "America" as is. If he was still alive to do this stuff himself, I'd probably feel a little more positive about it. Such a great film...why mess with it...

But I guess I should keep quiet until I actually see the new version...maybe it'll surprise me.

Without being cynical, I don't what to think of this, to tell you the truth. It's always nice that a great film gets attention so it's not forgotten, but sometimes I wish they would just have these extra scenes as a bonus on the DVD. "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" is kind of ruined for me with the new scenes they put in (thankfully, you can skip right over them). From what I've read (and who knows what to believe) Leone was happy with the 4 hour version of "America" as is. If he was still alive to do this stuff himself, I'd probably feel a little more positive about it. Such a great film...why mess with it...

But I guess I should keep quiet until I actually see the new version...maybe it'll surprise me.

the long version of GBU is actually Leone's version (besides the Cave Scene); United Artists cut those scenes for the American release. If you have a problem with the longer version, don't blame the restoration, blame Leone.

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the long version of GBU is actually Leone's version (besides the Cave Scene); United Artists cut those scenes for the American release. If you have a problem with the longer version, don't blame the restoration, blame Leone.

Let me explain what I meant - how can you blame Leone, dead for 14 years or so by then, for bringing back actors 35 years later to overdub their voices, and come up with a guy to imitate Lee Van Cleef's voice after he's dead as well? That's what I'm talking about,,,it's not the scenes, it's the older/different voices that have a jarring effect to me. And since they weren't overdubbed to begin with because they were cut by UA, I would think Leone's hardly the one to blame.

Let me explain what I meant - how can you blame Leone, dead for 14 years or so by then, for bringing back actors 35 years later to overdub their voices, and come up with a guy to imitate Lee Van Cleef's voice after he's dead as well? That's what I'm talking about,,,it's not the scenes, it's the older/different voices that have a jarring effect to me. And since they weren't overdubbed to begin with because they were cut by UA, I would think Leone's hardly the one to blame.

there's now way to know what Leone would have wanted if he was alive today. But considering that he wanted those scenes in the movie when it was released, I am glad they released those scenes now. (Even with the dubbing; that's better than nothing). Just like I am glad they released the scenes from OUATIA, even though the quality is significantly different

« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 01:56:16 PM by drinkanddestroy »

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Much as I like all the stuff that's going to be put in, there's something which I hope they take out, which is on the DVD and Blu-Ray editions. Namely the lame flashback during the last meeting between Noodles and Senator Bailey at the party. This was put in for the TV showings I believe, but never featured in the European cinema release. It always irritates me and I'm sure it was added by 'other hands'. I'm lucky to have the 'original' version on Laserdisc (having got rid of my VHS copies some years ago). It's inclusion works directly against Noodle's dialogue and the intimate nature of the scene, with it's quiet conclusion. Does anybody know? BTW I'm equally annoyed by the scene of Charles Bronson getting up after the opening gunfight in 'Once Upon a Time in the West'!

Much as I like all the stuff that's going to be put in, there's something which I hope they take out, which is on the DVD and Blu-Ray editions. Namely the lame flashback during the last meeting between Noodles and Senator Bailey at the party. This was put in for the TV showings I believe, but never featured in the European cinema release. It always irritates me and I'm sure it was added by 'other hands'. I'm lucky to have the 'original' version on Laserdisc (having got rid of my VHS copies some years ago). It's inclusion works directly against Noodle's dialogue and the intimate nature of the scene, with it's quiet conclusion. Does anybody know? BTW I'm equally annoyed by the scene of Charles Bronson getting up after the opening gunfight in 'Once Upon a Time in the West'!

Very interesting point. Is the fact that the flashback is a later insert confirmed anywhere?

If it is true that the studio inserted that flashback and it was not done by Leone, then it indeed should not be included, just like the Harmonica Rising scene should not be included in the dvd's of OUATITW. (Once Paramount cut out the trading post scene, then I guess it was necessary to add in the Rising scene; but once the trading post scene was restored, no doubt the Rising scene should have been removed, and included only as an extra on the dvd.

But are you sure that that flashback was not included in Leone's 229 minute cut of the movie?

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As I have said before its a great privilege to see any scenes that have been rediscovered and put in the film Once Upon a Time in America. I would say that the flashback scene where Noodles seems to be contemplating whether to shoot 'Mr Bailey' was a beautiful touch. We have just sat through four hours of sumptuous images and music. Its seems only correct to insert a flashback showing past scenes of childhood (remember this is a film where 'time is the protagonist' as Leone put it) Regarding the scene where Charles Bronson gets up from the shootout, again I am happy to see the elegance and artistry of the camera movements(the close up of Charles Bronson's eye as he wakes out of consciousness etc) On another subject, watching the RV version of the scene where James Woods and the rest of the gang pop up out of the water I am praying that there is Morricone's theme 'Once upon a Time In America' over that scene as is played on this Italian clip. It is so rich and full of meaning showing their childlike behaviour which is so poignant in juxtaposition to their life of crime. I know that earlier in the scene when Max asks if Noodles wants to go for a swim 'Photographic Memories' is heard in the background.