Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

That is your account, must postdate the 17th May 1998, 1you look at the first page? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I did not understand the question, last question, it 3was what? 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, if you say that you arrive at this conclusion in 5consequence of the discovery of a Himmler, a file page on 617th May 1998, this, what shall we say, "confession" must 7postdate that, must it not? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps I should explain to his Lordship, if your Lordship 9is wondering why it is written in the third person. This 10is a page. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that matters at all. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
No, right. But in other words I wrote that. This is what 13is important. 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I follow you wrote it. 15MR RAMPTON: I had assumed you wrote that. This is why I called 16it a confession. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Confession implies that something is wrong. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Put the substance, Mr Rampton. 19MR RAMPTON: It is quite inconsistent with the version you have 20been giving us in this court? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
It is absolutely consistent with my methods as an 22historian as saying here is one version, but the audience 23should know there is an alternative version. This is 24absolutely consistent with -- you remember how I sent that 25letter to The Times in 1966 saying there are other figures 26on Dresden and it is right that the public knows this.

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1I know it is unusual for historians to do this, but I do 2that kind of thing. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But you did not say, but on reflection I think this 4suggestion that I was mistaken is probably wrong, and 5I adhere to my original thesis that it was a Hitler order? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I draw attention to the first two words on page 1043 "this 7suggests". 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I know that? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
It does not say "this confirms" or "proves". 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: But to be blunt about it, Mr Irving, what 11I think is the suggestion made on the basis of your 12website entry is that it was because a journalist tipped 13off Himmler what had been going on that the message went 14out to Riga; have I understood it correctly? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I think I would be reading very much between the lines, my 16Lord. 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
That is what you are saying here, is it not, Mr Irving? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
No, not at all. I am saying exactly what happened. What 19his timetable was. 20MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, the position is this, you quite 21properly in this website entry recognize the possibility, 22I would say the probability, it does not matter, that your 23original thesis, that it was an order from Hitler was 24wrong, do you not? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you say "probability" and "possibility"; I would say 26what I am saying here is it is important that the learned

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1public, academics and others who are accessing this 2website realize there are documents which indicate a 3discrepancies in The Times. However, we should not lay 4every word on the gold balance, as the Germans say, 5because it is quite possible and indeed highly probable 6that as soon as Himmler arrived at Hitler's headquarters 7he did not go and have a shower or something, he went 8straight in to see the boss, and said "boss I am here, 9what time shall I come past" and the boss said "oh by the 10way Heydrich I will have to tear a strip off you because 11of what is happening at the Eastern Front". 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, who reads these books of yours? Do not take 13that as a suggestion that nobody does, at all, I do not 14mean that, but who are they aimed at? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
How would I know. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Who do you write your books for? When are you writing a 17book, if I write something to my wife I do not use the 18kind of pompous language I use in court, I hope. So you 19know, you have an audience? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Obviously, I am trying to write for as wide an audience as 21possible so that it is both learned enough for the 22academics to use as a source book, in the case of the 23Goebbels biography but also entertaining enough for the 24general public to look at and read from end to end without 25putting it down at the end of a chapter. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Exactly. It is meant to be readable and it is also

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1scholarly and authoritative, is it not? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
All three of those things. Do you not think, Mr Irving, 4that the respectable approach to this problem of the 5Himmler telephone call, for problem it is, historically? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Would have been to put both possible "theories", as you 8call them, in this website into your book? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, here you have another time discrepancy, Mr Rampton, 10because the book was delivered to the publishers in 1995, 11and this Moscow diary came to my hands in 1998, three 12years, so it would have been quite a feat of imagination 13to imagine what was in the archives and I had not at that 14time seen. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, but you had assumed without more, had you not? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
This is not the point you were just trying to make, you 17were trying to imply I concealed what I knew, which would 18fall within the grounds of manipulation and 19mistranslation. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What I put to you is this, that you inserted an order from 21Hitler without evidence? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I inferred an order from Hitler with very strong evidence. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You state it as a categorical fact? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
In my introduction to the book, yes, I draw conclusions. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And also in the text, if I may say so. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
No, in the text I state exactly what the documents say.

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1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And you mistranscribe the word Judentransport so as to 2make Hitler appear the more merciful because that is what 3it is about? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
No, I applied the wider interpretation of the "transport" 5rather than the narrow interpretation, which one could 6subsequently apply once one knew more about the history of 7that particular train load. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do not agree now that you have been caught out by the 9full entry in the Hitler log? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, historians are constantly being caught out by 11fresh documents that come into their purview and one is -- 12I am personally very satisfied how infrequently I am 13caught out. I the entire Goebbels biography initially, 14for example, without access to the diaries in Moscow. 15I was pleased to find out how much I managed to work out 16correctly from secondary sources. So it is with 17particular episode, the decodes only came into our 18possession within the last four or five years and yet they 19confirmed exactly what I inferred 20 years, 25 years ago. 20I do not think it is a question of being caught out. If 21one revises and updates information it is not because one 22has been caught out, with all pejorative implications. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am afraid they are pejorative. I would like to know why 24you say that the decodes (we will go it now, I will come 25back to where I was in a moment) why the decodes confirm 26your account?