Wednesday, April 14, 2010

Caner Should Resign at Liberty

Wade calls on Jonathan Falwell, Jr. and the trustees of Liberty to do the right thing, to publicly address the fabrications of their seminary president, and Wade believes Ergun must show humility and admit what he has done and apologize to those he has lied to.

Wade also says near the end of his post:

"I hope Dr. Caner keeps his job at Liberty."

I believed the very same, until this week.

I believe Caner should resign, or Falwell should send him packing.

Why have I changed my view on Caner keeping his job?

After I listened to Caner's 4 sermons preached in February 2007 at the Ohio Free Will Baptist Men's Retreat, I realize this guy has an incredible tendency to view people according to false stereotypes, and has used the pulpit to spread them.

A guy who would speak this garbage as a Christian minister has no place in an institution of higher learning, and much less a place in a church behind a pulpit.

How can the head of a religious school be a man who speaks derogatorily of just about every minority group using false stereotypes, whipping his audiences into laughter? Is it because he is a self-professed "camel jockey" or "towel head" that he things he has the right to perpetuate these stereotypes?

His four sermons at the Ohio Free Willers retreat was laced with jokes about women in general, ugly women being dogs, older women in churches pushing their "mutant granddaughters" on single ministers, Hispanics at Liberty pimping his truck using stolen parts, skinny "pixie" airhead girls at his seminary infatuated with their weight, Turkish women having better mustaches than Turkish men, Mexicans who "come here in the back of Chevy's"...and we know his false stereotypes of black and Hispanic worshippers at FBC Jax last June.

He even said this about "women behind the pulpit" to the hoots and hollers of his male audience:

"Dr. Caner, do you believe in women behind the pulpit? My answer is well, yeah, of course, how are they going to vacuum back there unless they get behind it....[laughter, and hoots and hollers].....and that's going to be in half of your pulpits next Sunday. FEEL FREE!!! I LOVE THAT LINE!! But you know one line like that shuts it all up, 'cause they're not going to talk about it, and they're not going to talk to you for a while, which is good, which is good."

I wouldn't send my daughter to a Christian school where the head of that school says such things about women. Might go hear him at a comedy night club or watch him on Leno, but hearing him say this as the head of a seminary where women, blacks, Hispanics, and others go to get an education? How long would Bernie Machen last at UF as the president of the school if he said this stuff? Heck, how long would Urban Meyer keep his job if he said such garbage?

Keep in mind, all of these stereotypes he spoke in 2007 and 2009, AFTER taking the helm of Liberty's seminary. And he spoke these in front of a group of mostly pastors and lay leaders. And its posted on the Internet for all to hear.

And lastly, let's face it: his entire fabrication of being a Muslim who was in the Islamic Youth Jihad, lived in Istanbul and his dad coming here as Islamic "missionaries"....its appears to me to be an attempt to stereotype ALL Muslim immigrants in our country...that they should all be feared because they are here to convert us and to strap bombs to themselves and blow us up.

I've thought about this, and after hearing the incredible lies and exaggerations spoken by Caner about his past, I don't believe that his dad was a devout Muslim, or that his dad brought his family here to be Muslim "missionaries". I think for Caner to tell that story is to demean the memory of his father. I believe the more likely story is that Ergun's dad, an educated professional, came here to live in a country where he could raise his family in freedom, where his boys could get an excellent education in Columbus, and then attend colleges and get degrees and pursue their dreams in this wonderful country. And they sure did, and good for his dad in bringing his family to this country.

I don't buy into this stereotype that Ergun Caner seems hell-bent on perpetuating about Muslims in our country. Most of them are peace-loving, family-loving citizens who work hard and want the best for their families. They are not "missionaries" to come here waiting for the signal from bin Laden to strap bombs on, which Caner seems to imply he would have done if not for accepting Christ. I don't think for one minute that any training Caner got at his mosques, or that he received from his dad, was to train him to be a terrorist. And I don't think his dad was a polygamist, as he implies in his sermons about him "having many wives".

Don't get me wrong, I hope that all Muslims in our country would hear the gospel and find redemption in Jesus Christ, but we will never win them to Christ by fearing them or stereotyping them as terrorists waiting to happen.

And we will have a much more difficult time winning Muslims to Christ when we elevate a man like Caner who the truly devout Muslims look at as an absolute JOKE, a guy who has lied about his Muslim upbringing to create a good testimony that gullible Christians will cheer - and we as Christians KNOW he is lying, and do nothing. Isn't our message to the Muslims that Jesus Christ is the way, the TRUTH, and the life? The TRUTH? How can the Muslims hear our message when we are not interested in the truth?

And then Muslims look at the leaders in Christianity, our pastors, men trained in Christian seminaries - guys like Tim Guthrie, and David Worley, and Peter Lumkins and others - these men of all men should have the spiritual foresight to see the harm that Caner is doing - and doing to the very cause these men have devoted their lives to! Not only do they not see the harm, they actually have gone after and mocked and ridiculed those of us Christians who dared to stand against these lies of Ergun Caner in their misguided attempts to protect one of their own.

So I say to Jerry Falwell, Jr...cut ties with Caner. Give him a generous severance package, let him go find in modern Christianity where his true calling is. He is a gifted speaker, no doubt. I don't doubt he is a true Christian, but he needs to find another Christian vocation. Maybe it's to be a traveling preacher/comedian like Dennis Swanburg, or to be a pastor once again, or to be a teacher at some school. Or maybe continue his writing career.

But the head of a prominent Christian seminary?

I think his lack of truthfulness, his willingness to spin a yarn about details of his past that never happened, and his penchant for using the pulpit to perpetuate false stereotypes makes him completely unsuitable for THAT position.

The lies have been stated publicly and from behind pulpits, and this I say, as the word of God. For a preacher is a prophet in the sense that he speaks God's words to God's people, and he evangelizes the folks not in the true church. A lying prophet in the Old Testament was not dismissed. You all not what the O.T. law was.

So the very LEAST that can happen to Ergun Caner is that he be fired! Further action should take palce, and he be barred from ever preaching again from any pulpit or teaching at any Christian school or seminary.

Good post. I can understand why a man would lie about his past to get a job and to make money. But when a man spreads false stereotypes about women (degrading them as dogs and barking in a sermon, and calling them "mutant granddaughters" if they are not attractive) is very hurtful. Our daughters, sisters and wives struggle with appearance as being the measure of their value and worth. God's Word gives them value and worth outside of what they look like. Or at least we try to tell them that don't we? (wink wink) That it is the inner beauty that is important? Really Ergun Caner? Really Liberty?

But now, the man in the pulpit jokes about ugly women and they see their church congregation laughing hardily. And they hear the only time they should be behind a pulpit is to vacuum the floor! And this man is the president of a conservative theological seminary. How hurtful to all women.

And to stereotype blacks... And Mexicans, and hispanics. This guy would be fired if he were even a talk radio host ("nappy headed ho's") or sports broadcaster.

Yet, Liberty, our last hope to train Champions for Christ. The legacy of Jerry Falwell's life ministry, has such a man on staff.

Yes, lying on your resume and repeatedly lying year after year, sermon after sermon, in pulpits and books is one thing. But this man brings so much more harm to women and minorities and as the head of a seminary, he is harming current students, future students, and future and past graduates of Liberty University and any church that invites him to speak.

So, in my opinion, he must resign or greater and irreparable harm will result to Liberty's perception by others and to their reputation as well as every church he speaks in.

"If he confesses and repents, I like Pastor Wade Burleson, prefer he keep his job, for then he would be better suited as a humble and repentant sinner"

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You cannot be serious!!!! I can't even go into how ridiculous that is!!! Oh ok, he is a total fraud but if he apologizes, let's let him keep his job, as if it is his right. No he's blown that privilege. CONSEQUENCES, BABY!!! I can't believe what spineless, gutless pushovers some of you christians are. Good grief. No wonder the world laughs at you and doesn't take you the least bit seriously.

"If he confesses and repents, I like Pastor Wade Burleson, prefer he keep his job, for then he would be better suited as a humble and repentant sinner"

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You cannot be serious!!!! I can't even go into how ridiculous that is!!! Oh ok, he is a total fraud but if he apologizes, let's let him keep his job, as if it is his right. No he's blown that privilege. CONSEQUENCES, BABY!!! I can't believe what spineless, gutless pushovers some of you christians are. Good grief. No wonder the world laughs at you and doesn't take you the least bit seriously.

Wow, judge, jury and verdict all in one place. We might want to get the lumber yard out of our eyes (notice the plural) before we see what's in someone else's eye. Didn't Jesus say something to the effect let the one WITHOUT sin cast the first stone. Wow, all the perfect people without sin, right here ready to toss the rocks.

Wow, judge, jury and verdict all in one place. We might want to get the lumber yard out of our eyes (notice the plural) before we see what's in someone else's eye. Didn't Jesus say something to the effect let the one WITHOUT sin cast the first stone. Wow, all the perfect people without sin, right here ready to toss the rocks.

April 14, 2010 4:30 PM

When it comes to me paying thousands of tuition monies to an institution to educate my kid and who hires men like Caner you bet I will be one to cast the first stone and be judgemental.

We are not discussing a Lumber Yard here, but a President of a University. He needs to go!

I don't think we are judging. The facts are clear. It is not a matter of who casts the first stone. Caner simply should not be presindent of a Christian University if he is obviously a chronic liar and a bigot. Sorry, Caner, you need to find another line of work.

Wow, judge, jury and verdict all in one place. We might want to get the lumber yard out of our eyes (notice the plural) before we see what's in someone else's eye. Didn't Jesus say something to the effect let the one WITHOUT sin cast the first stone. Wow, all the perfect people without sin, right here ready to toss the rocks.

April 14, 2010 4:30 PM

Somebody needs to study. What you are advocating is that Paul was sinning in 1 Corin 5 with the counsel he gave them. Is that true?

After all, Paul was a sinner, too.And here he was counseling them throw the sinner out.

Look at the list Paul gives. Let's look at another and then tell me if perhaps we should not be worried for Caner's eternal life. If you do not think so, then you do not understand the Gospel.

Rev 21

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Are you saying that there are believers with the indwelling Holy Spirit who continually lie? Do most professing believers actually think this way? One has to wonder what being Born Again really means, then. Are we not to be growing in Holiness? Would one not expect a president of a Christian institution of higher learning to at least be honest and tell the truth about his past and not use fabrications to titillate his audiences? Make money from books...speaking engagments, etc.

Wow, judge, jury and verdict all in one place. We might want to get the lumber yard out of our eyes (notice the plural) before we see what's in someone else's eye. Didn't Jesus say something to the effect let the one WITHOUT sin cast the first stone. Wow, all the perfect people without sin, right here ready to toss the rocks.

April 14, 2010 4:30 PM

Somebody needs to study. What you are advocating is that Paul was sinning in 1 Corin 5 with the counsel he gave them. Is that true?

After all, Paul was a sinner, too.And here he was counseling them throw the sinner out.

Look at the list Paul gives. Let's look at another and then tell me if perhaps we should not be worried for Caner's eternal life. If you do not think so, then you do not understand the Gospel.

Rev 21

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Are you saying that there are believers with the indwelling Holy Spirit who continually lie? Do most professing believers actually think this way? One has to wonder what being Born Again really means, then. Are we not to be growing in Holiness? Would one not expect a president of a Christian institution of higher learning to at least be honest and tell the truth about his past and not use fabrications to titillate his audiences? Make money from books...speaking engagments, etc.

Does Liberty Seminary allow a student who was caught embellishing (lying) on his entry application to remain a student? Or would they kick them out of school? What are the rules set up in the handbook concerning students caught cheating? Do cheating students also remain if an apology is given?

I can tell you for a fact that the secular schools I have experienced will permanently dismiss such students. Are the secular folks more righteous than Christians? Or are Liberty faculty even Christian?

I found Wade's statement that Caner should keep his job seriously lacking in wisdom.

Caner should be fired and never allowed in a pulpit again. That does not mean he can't repent and become an active Christian in a church again. He just cannot preach according to the Bible. He is unqualified to lead the Lord's people as an Elder, Bishop, teacher, pastor or whatever title you wish to use.

I personally think this fits into the the category that is written about in Hebrews 6:4-6.

Thy Peace said..."I like Pastor Wade Burleson, prefer he keep his job, for then he would be better suited as a humble and repentant sinner."

Anonymous said...

"Wow, judge, jury and verdict all in one place. We might want to get the lumber yard out of our eyes (notice the plural) before we see what's in someone else's eye. Didn't Jesus say something to the effect let the one WITHOUT sin cast the first stone. Wow, all the perfect people without sin, right here ready to toss the rocks."

If Caner is guilty of deliberately misprepresenting his past, then he should not only be removed from his position at the Seminary but also never hold another pastoral leadership position again - even if he genuinely repents.

Certainly a repentant Caner should be welcome to become a member of any of our churches - he is, after all, just another sinner who has been redeemed, and we should not with-hold membership to our churches those whom Christ has accepted. Nevertheless he should never again exercise spiritual leadership over God's people.

The Bible is clear about who should be elders and who should not be. Read 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1 and 1 Peter 3.

If Caner has deliberately misrepresented his past, then the problem is that:

* He is NOT above reproach (1 Timothy 3.2, Titus 1.6,7)* He has shamed himself and the church, which means that outsiders do not think well of him (1 Timothy 3.7)* His actions are NOT an example for others to follow (1 Peter 5.3)

This is not a case of expecting perfection from Pastors / Elders / Preachers - but it is an expectation that leaders in the church should meet a minimum criteria of godly behaviour. Moreover I also believe that if pastors are selected which do not meet this criteria, then the potential is there for further, more harmful action later on. If, for example, we think of those pastors who are guilty of sexual sin (which I am NOT accusing Caner of) there is a good chance that there was evidence earlier on in their Christian life which would have indicated that they were unsuitable and capable of further problems later on.

So even if Caner genuinely repents, there is every reason to believe that he could be capable of further sin later on if he continues his ministry.

Caner should not only resign, therefore, but never become involved in Christian leadership again. He has many skills that can be transferred to a non-Christian workplace. After resigning, he should be supported financially by the church out of love until he is able to support himself again. It goes without saying that he should also be supported spiritually by those within the church during and after this process as well, for we do not wish to destroy him, but merely to engage in loving church discipline.

Great excuses, just not sure they're scriptural. Yet we even try to justify our actions with Scripture. I'm just saying, last time I checked judgement belongs to God, not humans. I think the verse is judge not lest you be judged.

This isn't a charade this man is trying to pass off, this is a full-blown scam; fully deceiving the people of God so many goats.

Let me ask you something: What if it was determined, with hard evidence, that one of his students plagarized a dissertation or thesis or had just filled it with misinformation cited from bogus sources. Would he not stop for a second from expelling the student? Oh but if the student said apologized and repented, would you go ahead and confer a degree on that person?

Of course not!! So why allow this deception (not to mention horrific bigotry) at the top??

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill??? This is no big deal...have you ever caught a 3lb catfish and said it was 6lb? Same thing here! Lets focus on souls, something Ergun does and this website does not! He stretched the truth..so what! He did it for the right reasons! Get a life!

There is a huge difference between lying about the size of a fish in your driveway to your neighbor, and lying from a position of authority to a congregation about things in connection with spiritual/eternal things. One might deduce that if a person, in this case Ergun Caner, is lying about his background and college education, could he also be lying about the validity of the Bible, is he lying about the claims of Christ, is he lying about salvation and eternal life.

If Caner is simply all about saving souls, why is he worried about his reputation by inflating his credentials and "testimony"?

While I do not condone lying of any type. There is a difference in degrees of lying. Have you ever told your spouse that a particular outfit looked good on them, when in fact it did not? Have ou ever lied to someone close to you about their weight, so as not to hurt their feelings?

Let's compare apples to apples and leave the oranges to be compared to other oranges.

Hey, the Georgia Baptist Convention did the same thing with Mike Everson - now serving as a "Consultant" and appointed by Robert White ( One of the Great Commission puppets) to those poor Pastor with the GBC in the swamps of South Ga.

They (the GBC) and there GBC Propaganda paper "The Christian Index" ran an almost full page backslapping article on Mike Everson and said he graduated from 3 Colleges / Institutions and gave him the DR. title........

UNTIL I RESEARCHED AND EXPOSED THEM ALL AS FRAUDS AND DECEIVERS!

He never graduated from anywhere and holds a job that required, at the time, for the position to be a Fully Educated Degree Position....

Is it really lying when you say.."Honey, that pantsuit looks good on you?" No, your trying to boost her self-esteem and bring hope to her. Ergun is simply doing what Paul said.."I become all things to all people"! He is bringing hope to hundreds of thousands...are you? Did the Apostle Paul pad his resume? I don't know but even if he did, WHO CARES! I am so glad this blog was not around 2000 years ago, you would have tore Peter up!

Well, according to this, the answer is "maybe." "Academic dishonesty" is listed right up there with abortion, possessing or drinking alcohol, and assault or sexual assault, any of which may result in Administrative Withdrawal. Cheating is considered to be on the same level as abortion or sexual assault? Really?

Slow to speak: Let's use some common sense here. To excuse Ergun is to hide him. There is no excuse for his lying, there is no excuse for him alienating by lying the very ones we are supposed to reach. Now ask a missionary what they think of approaching anything Christian in this way. It is wrong. It is a sin. period. Show me in scripture where the Apostle Paul, Christ himself, or anyone that gave their testimony ever embellished or lied. It's calling wrong right. Now that too is condemned in scripture.

Someone anonymous was upset at Wade for wanting Dr. Caner to keep his job. I want to get to the point Wade is at. I am praying for that point in my life. It's called Grace. If Dr. Caner would humble himself, come completely clean,ask for forgiveness. Get right with God because in this state he is not. I want to be to the place where my response would be the same. A humble broken man is one most effectively used by God.

David and adultry, Moses who committed murder,Peter and his temper, etc. God used them mightily once they were broken. I am a person who loves to be broken by God although it hurts like crazy when it is happening. The end result is a much humbler better God pliable person. I would pray that God does a work in Ergun Caner so that he can be mightily used by God. It's about Him, not about us. And justice is still served.

Aussie John made a statement on Paul Burleson's blog today that cut right through me. He said: "Genuine followers of Christ, will NEVER shoot the wounded, whether wounded by false accusations or by their own sin."

I think Wade just wants justice but he's not willing to shoot the wounded even if they are being wounded by their own sin.

One last time...GET OVER IT! I think this is about jealousy...Ergun is unique, captivating, funny, and very effective. The bloggers here seem to want their Preachers to be like Mr. Rogers...nice, clean, white and BORING! Let Ergun be Ergun, you don't like him, don't listen to him! Why don't you Tea Baggers leave our evangelists alone!

His disposition of making peace with sin in his life is frightening. Such self-seeking is DEFINITELY one of the marks of a false convert (I was one)...... and we know that liars will not inherit the kingdom. Mr. Caner's soul could be in jeopardy-- he must repent, and I sincerely hope he does as this reproaches our LORD much in the eyes of unbelievers.

I wonder how and why someone who is called of God to be a spiritual leader ever has to stretch the truth(lie). God is not the author of confusion. He is Truth. Man is measured by his character whether good or bad. Unfortunately, some men pass themselves off as totally good when they know they are not and I suggest, want to be held up in admiration for whatever reason. They just deceive themselves. The best definition of sin is "self deception".

When these men get older and maybe realize they cannot undo the harm they have done to "the body of Christ" then and only then will they have a change in their hearts and might possibly get SAVED!!!

Presently, it is a stain on their ministry. One that needs to be removed by the Blood of the Lamb. Then must come total commitment and an apology to all that have been misled. Otherwise the stain is still there open for all to see.

Debbie - I'm not talking about "shooting the wounded". I'm talking about saying "Ergun, we love you brother, and we accept your apology [assuming he has repented]. However, we believe you are unqualified to be the president of our seminary because of your decade-long deception about your past. In the best interests of our school, the students and alumni, we need you to go elsewhere. Here's a year's salary in severence, please contact Johnny Hunt and Mac Brunson for your next assignment."

"Shooting the wounded" is what mega church pastors do to recalcitrant bloggers and their wives that they don't want around their church anymore.

"Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner is President and Dean of the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary in Lynchburg, Virginia. He is also Professor of Theology and Apologetics at Liberty University. Raised as a devout Sunni Muslim and the son of an Islamic leader, Caner came to faith in Jesus Christ in 1982, and was subsequently disowned by his family.

For the past twenty years, he has debated leaders in twelve major world religions, including Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Bahai, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and many others. He has written sixteen books, including the POPULAR ENCYCLOPEDIA OF APOLOGETICS, and has defended Christianity on such television networks as CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, FOX News and the BBC.

He has been married for fourteen years, and he and his wife have two sons, ages nine and four.

Slow to Speak: I suspect that a "wink, nod and compromise", are good enough for you, but, are not acceptable to bible believers. Gods Word is not just any word or lifestyle. We are called to be Holy like Jesus. Those that are truly called of God to preach do not compromise His Word with lies. Do you not see how this type of deception looks to a lost world. This is an embarassement to the Lord. The lost world "snickers", when these type of situations arise. They say, "See, those preachers and church goer's, arn't different. They just try to act like they are". This type of deception and other deceptions coming out of preachers and churches today are what's wrong with "ministry". This is why the church (in general) has NO POWER. They have COMPROMISED with the world. The preachers/churches have gone after the world and the things of the world. They hire publicity firms to "market" the church instead of relying on the working of the Holy Spirit to lead the pastor and the church. They are as you say "entertained" by "funny, unique, captivating" SPEAKERS, in place of truly God called preachers that do not COMPROMISE Gods Holy Word, for money or popularity. Being a God called preacher is a serious matter, not just a job, or occupation. True preachers don't belong to themselves, they belong to God, as we saved ones also do. Never embarass or compromise Gods Word...NEVER! We are truly in the last days of the Laodicean church age. Continued:

Continued: Rev. 3:14-17: "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; vs.15: I know they works, that thou art neither cold not hot; I would thou wert cold or hot. vs.16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. vs. 17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor , and blind, and naked:". Jesus stands today on the "outside" of His church, knocking to get in.

Continued:nRev. 3:14-17: " And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans, write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; vs, 15: I know they works, that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot. vs. 16: So then because; thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. vs.17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked;". Vs. 20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock; if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Jesus is outside of His church today, asking to come in.

For the first time ever, I have to disagree with Thy Peace. Caner will have to rebuild credibility over a long time before assuming any authority over Christian brothers. One Salient Oversight is right on the money with this one.

Slow to Speak should speak even more slowly. As in Proverbs, he might even be counted as wise, with fewer words. Justifying evil is a debilitating habit.

Maybe when he comes to Jax to collect his next stipend check for a speaking gig he can treat us to jokes about tea-bagging bloggers, hardy har har.

Seriously, those who in the SBC who have been trying to get Mark Driscoll banned from the SBC in their annual meeting motions: if they don't do the same to Caner for his disgraces, then they all owe Mark Driscoll a big 'ole apology.

"Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner is President and Dean of the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary in Lynchburg, Virginia. He is also Professor of Theology and Apologetics at Liberty University. Raised as a devout Sunni Muslim and the son of an Islamic leader, Caner came to faith in Jesus Christ in 1982, and was subsequently disowned by his family.

For the past twenty years, he has debated leaders in twelve major world religions, including Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Bahai, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and many others. He has written sixteen books, including the POPULAR ENCYCLOPEDIA OF APOLOGETICS, and has defended Christianity on such television networks as CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, FOX News and the BBC.

He has been married for fourteen years, and he and his wife have two sons, ages nine and four.

Contrast that with his old biography posted on the LU website:

homeLIFE

Ergun was born in Stockholm, Sweden to turkish parents and in 1979 immigrated to the United States with his parents, grandmother, and two brothers. Ergun became an American citizen in 1984 and currently resides in Lynchburg, VA with his wife and two sons.

spiritualLIFE

Ergun became a Christian in 1982 and since then has pastored at churches in Kentucky, North Carolina, Indiana, Colorado and Texas. In 1999, Ergun became a professor of Historical Theology at The Criswell College until 2003 when he moved to Lynchburg to teach Theology and Church History at Liberty University. Ergun is now the President of Liberty Theological Seminary and travels extensively throughout the world as a leading voice for Frontline Apologetics.

educationalLIFE

Doctor of Theology - University of South AfricaMaster of Theology - SEBTSMaster of Divinity - SEBTSMA in History - The Criswell CollegeBA in Biblical Studies - University of the Cumberlands

You have a good point Jax and the Mark Driscoll apology would well be in order. I think we could throw Rick Warren an apology or two from them. At least they have been honest about their ministry and integrity is certainly not something I would accuse them both of not having. I like both of them, I also disagree with some things from both of them which is what makes us Southern Baptists and Christians. Good point Jax.

Okay. That is exactly what the churches and lost world should be doing. Leaving our lying, bigoted, charlatan speakers alone and not listening to them. You may be getting your wish sooner and more widespread than you think.

Why so much emphasis on inerracy by these guys regarding scripture? Because they know that any logical thinker knows "If you can't trust the messenger, how can you trust the message." We must trust the scripture to trust its exclusive way of salvation. We must also trust our leaders to believe their message on tithing or anything else they tell us.

Caner, and those like Slow to Speak who flippantly suggest lying is not a big deal hurt the cause of Christ. Slow to Speak even suggests Paul may have padded his resume. He may be a troll, but if he is, he is suggesting it is okay to give Caner a pass, since maybe Paul, and the Bible, are not really accurate.

So, like Slow To Speak, I do intend to stop listening to Caner, Brunson, Gaines, Young, et al. I am still trying to hang onto the reliability of the Word. What it SAYS, NOT what they tell me it says.

Look, Ergun just introduced another into the fray (check his background):

"Growing up in the Columbus Ohio area, Jamal Jivanjee was raised by a devout Shiite Muslim father of Asian Indian decent from east Africa, and a very conservative Catholic mother who was raised on a farm in rural Ohio. Jamal's quest for the truth led him out of Islam and Catholicism, and down some perilous roads, but eventually to Christ as a young adult. Jamal went on to become a graduate of Liberty University in Lynchburg, VA where he studied Pastoral ministry. "

Now you see these Muslin men coming to America, marrying American women, having the child, raising them as devout Muslin's and all of a sudden the children become converts. (Seems I heard this theme somewhere before?)

You cant get rid of them as they will not quit, as they say:

"Is this how you treat converts?"

So they are entrenched in their positions as they continue to empower themselves.

Great excuses, just not sure they're scriptural. Yet we even try to justify our actions with Scripture. I'm just saying, last time I checked judgement belongs to God, not humans. I think the verse is judge not lest you be judged.

April 14, 2010 9:00 PM

Paul told the Body to JUDGE the "inside" 1 Corin 5 so maybe you do not understand the pericope of "judging" very well. An example that proof texting can lead folks in a wrong direction.

Paul was not contradicting Jesus. If we cannot judge each other in the Body then I guess all those pedophiles in ministry really should get a pass. AFter all, it would be a sin to judge their behavior as sin.

Amazing the depth of ignorance out there. No wonder these charlatans get by with it!

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill??? This is no big deal...have you ever caught a 3lb catfish and said it was 6lb? Same thing here! Lets focus on souls, something Ergun does and this website does not! He stretched the truth..so what! He did it for the right reasons! Get a life!

His disposition of making peace with sin in his life is frightening. Such self-seeking is DEFINITELY one of the marks of a false convert (I was one)...... and we know that liars will not inherit the kingdom. Mr. Caner's soul could be in jeopardy-- he must repent, and I sincerely hope he does as this reproaches our LORD much in the eyes of unbelievers.

April 15, 2010 7:52 AM

Very wise words, friend. I was a false convert, too, so I get where you are coming from on this issue.

Slow to speak said... Is it really lying when you say.."Honey, that pantsuit looks good on you?" No, your trying to boost her self-esteem and bring hope to her. Ergun is simply doing what Paul said.."I become all things to all people"! He is bringing hope to hundreds of thousands...are you? Did the Apostle Paul pad his resume? I don't know but even if he did, WHO CARES! I am so glad this blog was not around 2000 years ago, you would have tore Peter up!April 14, 2010 10:34 PM

... my initial thought was that it had to be satire to show how ridiculous people sound when they try to defend the indefensible. After all, no one could be that obtuse unless they were joking. But then came this ...

Slow to speak said... One last time...GET OVER IT! I think this is about jealousy...Ergun is unique, captivating, funny, and very effective. The bloggers here seem to want their Preachers to be like Mr. Rogers...nice, clean, white and BORING! Let Ergun be Ergun, you don't like him, don't listen to him! Why don't you Tea Baggers leave our evangelists alone!April 15, 2010 7:03 AM

... and I realized that "Slow" isn't being intentionally asinine for effect, he's just one of those who genuinely don't see a problem with a preacher being intentionally deceptive.

Using a obscene sexual reference (commonly used by leftist radicals as a slur against American patriots) to describe people who simply believe preachers should be honest -- well, that's about as puerile as it gets.

Good job, Slow to Speak, you've proven the importance of what Watchdog is saying. Next time you might try being slow to write, too.

LISTEN...all thinking, rational, spiritual evangelicals...Be grateful that we had no Bloggers 2000 years ago! King David would have been run out of town FOREVER by the Bloggers after his fling with Bathsheba. No second chances, no grace, no forgiveness...and no Psalms either! Peter after his episode of cursing and denying Jesus would have NEVER been given a second chance by this Blog....thank God for Jesus! Has Ergun made mistakes...sure....have you? You want to call me a Troll...fine....in reality, it's called the truth! So for all you self-righteous Pharisees that want to proclaim your indignation over the "sins" of Ergun...remember...that Bible your quoting...God wrote a lot of it thru murderers, liars, adulterers, and thiefs...just saying.............

LISTEN...all thinking, rational, spiritual evangelicals...Be grateful that we had no Bloggers 2000 years ago! King David would have been run out of town FOREVER by the Bloggers after his fling with Bathsheba. No second chances, no grace, no forgiveness...and no Psalms either! Peter after his episode of cursing and denying Jesus would have NEVER been given a second chance by this Blog....thank God for Jesus! Has Ergun made mistakes...sure....have you? You want to call me a Troll...fine....in reality, it's called the truth! So for all you self-righteous Pharisees that want to proclaim your indignation over the "sins" of Ergun...remember...that Bible your quoting...God wrote a lot of it thru murderers, liars, adulterers, and thiefs...just saying.............

April 15, 2010 6:48 PM

I guess we have to ask the obvious question: Does that mean that one can stay a liar, adulterer and murderer while they are 'walking in the light' until they go to heaven?

What is the point of being Born Again? What exactly IS a new creation: Being forgiven while you continue to lie, commit adultery and murder?

There is an incredible ignorance of the doctrine of regeneration out there.

I get a bit squeamish when I hear Christians use David as an example of why it is ok to continue in sin. He lost a child after that. Did yo forget that point? Did you also forget we are in a NEW Covenant where we are to have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Can one commit these sins continually while having the indwelling Holy Spirit?

You have left one very important point: Caner has not repented. He has not even answered the very obvious questions and his latest bio continues in the fabrications and is carefully vague.

His letter to the Liberty faculty proves he is in denial and damage control mode.

Just a note: There were no bloggers 2000 years ago but there were writers who left rebukes in letters for all to read for 2000 years. Ask Peter someday.

LISTEN...all thinking, rational, spiritual evangelicals...Be grateful that we had no Bloggers 2000 years ago! King David would have been run out of town FOREVER by the Bloggers after his fling with Bathsheba. No second chances, no grace, no forgiveness...and no Psalms either! Peter after his episode of cursing and denying Jesus would have NEVER been given a second chance by this Blog....thank God for Jesus! Has Ergun made mistakes...sure....have you? You want to call me a Troll...fine....in reality, it's called the truth! So for all you self-righteous Pharisees that want to proclaim your indignation over the "sins" of Ergun...remember...that Bible your quoting...God wrote a lot of it thru murderers, liars, adulterers, and thiefs...just saying.............

April 15, 2010 6:48 PM

If the Holy Spirit is not convicting one of their sins, they are not saved.

It is so irresponsible for one to lie as Caner has for people to think there should be no consequences or accountability. He should be man enough to step down as there are a lot of men who are more deserving of that job title.

Certainly forgiveness, etc is a given from all of us, but to remain in a position at Liberty such as he does now, not acceptable!

He has plenty of degree's with the gift of gab to talk his way out of this one but most of us know that he can and will. Liberty will stand behind him like the Catholics did with their pediphile preist to cover up their sins.

"remember...that Bible your quoting...God wrote a lot of it thru murderers, liars, adulterers, and thiefs...just saying.............

April 15, 6:48PM:The difference is those whom God used humbled themselves, confessed their sins before God and man, were forgiven and were then clean vessels to be used for His kingdom.In Psalm 51 David said: "Against Thee and Thee only have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight."Those in leadership positions are held to a higher accountability because of their influence on so many. It is of utmost importance that they be men/women of integrity or they will stumble the lost and discourage the saved. I believe just as those in the Tea Party movement have grown weary of the spin of politicians, those in the church have become weary of the spin of many in leadership.

Slow to Speak - please email Tom Messer at Trinity Baptist in Jacksonville and Daryl Gilyard in prison. You will be a great source of encouragement to them. The Pope could use your logic and support too about now.

According to your logic, we can murder and commit adultery and be just like King David. Yes, thank God there was no internet around back then for King David, or he would have been "attacked" by some disrespectful bloggers. And what about Jesus himself. Good thing he came during the era of the Roman cross and not now. We would crucify him on our blogs. He only had to endure the cross. Sheesh!

No wonder people like Bill Maher think Christians are a bunch of mindless, gullible morons.

Its funny that many of the "Anonymous" bloggers say things like: "he makes jokes in the pulpit"...and the problem is? Its amazing how sensitive you all are about how Ergun treats other people and his insensitivity and yet YOU treat him like he is absolute garbage...double standard? If I choose to forgive a Brother and want to see him restored, I am called a "spineless, gutless pushover...wow that is really Godly language coming from this blog! Anytime anyone on this blog speaks of forgiveness, hope, second chances, fresh starts, grace, and mercy...we get shot down like George Bush in the New York Times! You are bullies...using spiritual language to harass and ridicule Christians and I for one while not by bullied!

One should remember mega's never correct they just want to connect. Its sort of like being in a club just paying their dues and back slapping and toting their nickels and dimes to the bank. Also, makes for a good healthy prize to gain recognition with a favorable book deal and numerous speakings engagements all in the name of Jesus. You see these types on tv everyday. Worse and worse. But, judgement day is coming soon!!!

Its funny that many of the "Anonymous" bloggers say things like: "he makes jokes in the pulpit"...and the problem is? Its amazing how sensitive you all are about how Ergun treats other people and his insensitivity and yet YOU treat him like he is absolute garbage...double standard? If I choose to forgive a Brother and want to see him restored, I am called a "spineless, gutless pushover...wow that is really Godly language coming from this blog! Anytime anyone on this blog speaks of forgiveness, hope, second chances, fresh starts, grace, and mercy...we get shot down like George Bush in the New York Times! You are bullies...using spiritual language to harass and ridicule Christians and I for one while not by bullied!

April 15, 2010 10:04 PM

Great teaching moment. But note something even more interesting in this person's comments. He is actually admitting Caner is a liar. he is just trying to make us believe that is no big deal in the life of one who is paid to be a Christian leader. Interesing.

Its funny that many of the "Anonymous" bloggers say things like: "he makes jokes in the pulpit"...and the problem is? Its amazing how sensitive you all are about how Ergun treats other people and his insensitivity and yet YOU treat him like he is absolute garbage...double standard? If I choose to forgive a Brother and want to see him restored, I am called a "spineless, gutless pushover...wow that is really Godly language coming from this blog! Anytime anyone on this blog speaks of forgiveness, hope, second chances, fresh starts, grace, and mercy...we get shot down like George Bush in the New York Times! You are bullies...using spiritual language to harass and ridicule Christians and I for one while not by bullied!

April 15, 2010 10:04 PM"

You Know what......deceivers like this and all those within " the Baptist Mafia" deserve to be BULLIED!

Early in a sermon in January of this year, Caner repeated the story about learning about America by watching Andy Griffith and pro wrestling in Turkey. In this version he also included the Dukes of Hazzard as one of the shows he watched in Turkey.

The Dukes of Hazzard did not begin until 1979!

At about the 24:00 minute mark, Caner starts talking about how the Hispanic population has outgrown the African-American population. He says that we will soon have Latin History Month and "Cinco de Blacko" instead of Black History Month and Cinco de Mayo.

At about the 31:30 mark he refers to a debate that he claims he had at the University of Chicago with a female Islamic scholar.

The sermon was at a Baptist church in Amarillo. You can listen to it here. Enter "Caner" in the search box and then choose the PM sermon from January 24, 2010.

If you thing things are a bit shady concerning the handling of Caner, check how the leadership of Liberty is manipulating things in their local government as they secretly recorded a meeting with the mayor.

Actually it seems like a good thing that they did tape it, secretly or not, because it seems to disprove their claim. Apparently the taping was legal. However, what I take away from reading the transcript is that the mayor was not, as LU officials claimed, guaranteeing them a 7-0 vote approving their tunnel project but rather, as she explained, that the council would stand 7-0 behind the city manager who stated any impact the project had on public infrastructure would have to meet code and be approved by council. Apparently the connection points are the only part of the project plans that haven't been approved yet. The tunnels themselves have been. Looks like to me all they need to do is be willing to work with the city to get the rest of their plan approved. What's their beef? Do they think they're above the law? As my old chemistry prof would write next to wrong answers on test papers... WWMIS. "Wishing won't make it so."

Question...was David fired after his sin? Was Peter told "you can never preach again" after he lied? That is exactly what many of these "Christians" on this blog are saying about Ergun! How about this jewel..."The Church in Jesus day started the habit of Blogging"! Wrong Paleface! It was the....Pharisees! Here is another comment..."What is Liberty waiting on?" What are they doing? It's called....PRAYER...try it sometime

You have not addressed the Biblical mandates for eldership which I have mentioned. I believe that the Bible makes it very clear that leaders in the church are expected to be of Godly character. Those within the church who do not exhibit Godly character may still be Christians, but they should not be leaders.

And the use of King David as an example is not analogous to Caner's situation. David was God's anointed king over God's people. The word "anointed" here is important because the Hebrew word for "anointed one" is the same word we use for "Messiah".

The role of King David as God's anointed King finds its ultimate fulfilment in Christ.

The role of pastor / teacher / elder in the church of God cannot and should never be linked with the role of Kings, Priests or Prophets in the Old Testament.

Jesus is the King. Jesus is the Priest. Jesus is the prophet - both the person and the prophetic message itself.

Pastors / teachers / elders do not have these roles. Instead they serve the King as we do, they gain entry into the most holy place the same way we do, and they listen to and take heed of the spoken and incarnate word.

Tellingly, nowhere in the New Testament is the role of pastor / teacher / elder made analogous with the role of Old Testament King, Priest or Prophet.

There is one analogy that is made - that of the ox. "Do not muzzle the ox while it treads out the grain" says Paul in 1 Timothy 5.18. The role of pastor / teacher / elder is one of hard sweaty work, and oxen who don't do their work well tend to end up on people's plates.

So ask yourself this: If Caner were an ox, would he be seen to be doing an effective job in the field that God has placed him?

I find it interesting that Baptist Press has reproted nothing about the Caner issue. I am NOT surprised, however. What is happening, unfortunately, is that everything associated with the Southern Baptist Convention is losing it's credibility. The GCR task force, FMB, NAMB, CP, BP, the seminaries, everything.

And they can't figure out why we are dropping in our number of baptisms, why our over all membership is dropping, why our church attendance is dropping (especially among the 20 somethings). It's because there is nothing authentic anymore associated with you guys.

Hey Nashville, we want you guys to have credibility but you have to build it back, we want to trust you guys, but you have to earn it back. You need to come out and take a stand for what is right REGARDLESS of who it might expose! Your reputation and future depends on it!

I am pleading with Baptist Press to PLEASE do some investigative journalism regarding these accusations against Ergun Caner. Do your job, let the facts lead you where they may, and share the truth with us. I would not be happier if Ergun Caner is exonerated. But you need to do your job and inform those of us who support your work with the truth. Stop trying to protect those like Caner by not reporting about this story, it only strengthens the arguments against them!!

As dumb as professional wrestling is, I've recently become the head of the MFGG Wrestling federation (www.forums.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6232), during which time I've learned a little about real-life wrestling. Ric Flair wasn't a major wrestler until the late 70's and 80's - which should be pretty good evidence that that guy is being caught red-handed in an outrageous (and pointless) lie. I wish people could come clean with things like this instead of building increasingly tangled webs - especially ministers!

Also, it's great that Harry Caray was mentioned here. But he announced White Sox games for most of the 70's and wasn't a Cubs announcer until 1981.

One thing about King David: God chose him. Most all the modern preachers are chosen by themselves, and/or the head of some seminary that wants more loyal "troops" and minions. They do not hear the voice of God, however some even dare to tell us that they do. Some say they are spoken to in the dessert, riding down mountains on horses,playing golf, etc. I wonder who is really "speaking", the preacher, the wife, the seminary, the "bank". No wonder the lost world is cautious to enter a modern church. A lot of them are nothing more than dry bones. Nothing goes on in church buildings that could not go on anywhere else in the world. Most don't teach the Bible, but rather a slide show presentation and a cute story that does not convict one of SIN!!! The latest book that preacher has read. Its become a place of entertaiment. And not very good entertainment at that. I wouldn't pay to be there, or to see it.Lukewarm Christianity is the theme of our day and the mega pastors have bought into this notion. Sad but true. Spiritual discernment is mostly a thing of the past. In another generation or two there won't be any. You certainly cannot depend on the ones in high places today to get back to the basics. They are too engrossed in their 401Ks, sign on bonus, retirement packages, and where their next resort (home) will be. God help us!!! Churches and preachers today, have failed God and us!!!

In addition: Slow to speak; Your LACK OF bible understanding and knowledge, is truly astounding. Your willingness to compromise Gods word, and the directions we have from the Lord to live above reproach, as witnesses to the lost world is also astounding. Sorry to say but you resemble the lost and worldly in so many of your comments.

Slow to Speak's brand of Christianity is actually becoming pretty mainstream these days. Here's a smorgasbord of sites, some of which echo the current philosophy. http://church.alltop.com/I recently heard a pastor say that anything's permissable in the church as long as it isn't immoral, without defining "immoral." Guess it's all us old "churchy" people who have the problem because we cling to old, staid beliefs like integrity.

Well I do. I doubt anyone's Christianity who is in ministry and exagerates in pulpits. My doubts won't change any facts. And I know Christians are not perfect; mistakes can be made. But I do doubt, and I would have to treat such a person as an unbeliever in keeping with God's word if that person refuses to repent.

I Dr. Caner cannot answer these obvious exagerations, and will not repent of them properly, I think we must treat him as an unbeliever. I also would not expect that he could ever again be in a biblical position of elder.

I also see that once having shared in glorious ministry with Christ, that it is very hard (impossible) for such a participator to be brought again into repentance. Since the Lord grants repentance, will he grant it to such an one?

These are hard things to consider, but they are Biblical things that must be considered by God's elect.

Lets go back even further. God was angry that the Isrealites wanted a king like the pagan's had. God was their King. But He gave them a king anyway. And much of the history of those kings is not so good.

David is NOT an example to emulate in all things. Folks make a huge error when they trot out OT characters and say, see!

What would we say about Caner if he married his half sister and then told everyone she wasn't his wife and handed her over to be the mistress of some rich pagan? Would they say, SEE! It can't be all that bad because Abraham did it.

CONSEQUENCES BABY!!! Prune the Grape Vines. Ergun Craner, you are guilty, I don't have all the facts but you are guilty!! You need to be Fired! You need to be treated like an OT prophet! Barred FOREVER from preaching!

This is our Blogs brand of NT Christianity.

No hearing both sides of the story, no quotes of Scripture such as "The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[a] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. (Phil.1:17-18)

Many of you may want to get a copy of the book "Apparent Danger" by David Stokes. It is the story of J. Frank Norris who killed a man he had just met moments ago in his own office and got away with it. The subtitle is: "The Pastor of America's First Megachurch and the Texas Murder Trial of the Decade in the 1920's"

It is a cautionary tale, about the cult of personality involved in mega-churches. And how people were willing to excuse what Norris did regardless of the evidence simply because he was a pastor.

I have just begun and find some eery parallels between the supporters of Norris and the supporters of many of the mega stars, uh, I mean Mega-Pastors.

"The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[a] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. (Phil.1:17-18)"

So, you interpret that to mean that that it is ok to be a willful consistent liar and preach Christ?

Did it ever occur to you what you are really advocating by quoting that verse? (You are not helping Caner, you realize that?)

(Hint: if the motives are false that would mean they are not saved but still preaching truth. Duh)

Shocked as you might be to read this, but I think God works through Caner.

Whenever Caner gets up to preach the Gospel, God is working through him. Whenever Caner gets up to teach the Bible, God works through him.

God also works through you. That I have no doubt.

But we need to separate God's sovereign ability to work through sinners from any "support" he might have for these people.

God works through Caner, but if these allegations are correct and Caner DID misrepresent the facts of his conversion and early life, then God doesn't WANT him to keep preaching or teaching the gospel.

At the risk of going Godwin, anyone who has read about Corrie Ten Boom knows that God used the holocaust to allow the Gospel to be preached. Yet I hear no one saying that God approved of the holocaust.

Similarly, Paul in Philippians states that God works even through those who preach out of rivalry and poor motives. Yet that does not mean that God supports such actions or somehow approves of their methods.

But back to Caner. Jewish Holocaust he is most definitely not, but if God is so great as to work through the evils of the holocaust then it is pretty easy for him to work through Ergun Caner.

And is Caner a Christian? I don't think anyone here is casting any doubt upon his faith. I think it is safe to assume that I will be spending eternity in paradise with Caner.

But we must follow what the Bible says. If God states that pastors / teachers / elders should act as examples of Godliness and that people should be precluded from such ministry if they do not exhibit such Godliness, then why are we even debating this?

If we are to follow the Bible's instructions and honour God's word then we must call upon Ergun Caner to resign from his position and never enter formal ministry ever again.

(Provided, of course, that Caner did, in fact, deliberately misrepresent his testimony. If we assume that this is the case then what I said about Caner stands.)

Anytime anyone on this blog speaks of forgiveness, hope, second chances, fresh starts, grace, and mercy...we get shot down like George Bush in the New York Times! You are bullies...using spiritual language to harass and ridicule Christians and I for one while not by bullied!

April 15, 2010 10:04 PM___________________________________

We learned this from Mac Brunson and A.C. Soud. No forgiveness, no second chances...just trespass warnings and slander and name calling. :)

I don't have a Doctorate in Theology but I do have a Bible and good ol'common sense.

Ergun Caner has said he "misspoke". He has apologized for anyone that he has hurt. What do you want from him...because the way you forgive is the way you will be forgiven!

It is a shame that we have sunk to the level in our Churches that we cannot accept an apology! We look at the discourse in our political world and we have accepted that same level of hatred and bigotry in the Church.

Could all of this controversy be because Ergun has darker skin than some of you? Could it be that you are taking out your anger about Obama and misplacing it on Dr. Caner?

I think I will be quiet for a while. Sometime the truth takes some time to sink in...but if you have ears, you will hear it!

I really feel sorry for some of you that are "haters". Your anger, bitterness, meanness, and hostility toward Ergun and other Christian Leaders such as Mac and Steve Gaines is exactly the opposite of Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus got angry and told some people off...and the ones he told off were also angry, bitter, mean,and hostile...just saying...

When all else fail, use the Race card to divert any truths that you may encounter from those exposing the truth about matters that may befall you to discourage ANYONE from finding out what your really all about.........

"Ergun Caner has said he "misspoke". He has apologized for anyone that he has hurt. What do you want from him...because the way you forgive is the way you will be forgiven!"

Which time did he misspeak?

I can apologize for lying but then if I do not say what was a lie and set the record straight with facts (because I lied using 'facts') then what is the point of the apology? To make it go away.

You have much to learn about what scripture really says. I would recommend studying alone without the filters of your teachers/pastors.

We can forgive Caner but he will still face the Lord. And there are still higher standards for those who teach/lead. He needs to step down according to the Word. He is not above reproach to the outside.

And, his behavior is teaching hundreds of followers like you that being dishonest is no big deal. Caner is using the oldest defense in the world: Blame those who caught him. Accuse them of not being saved. This is insidious.

This is one reason why sin is so serious. In this case, it is leading thousands of young people who revere Caner into supporting deception.

Oh, that people would not follow men! Follow Christ. Following Caner is NOT following Christ.

Slow to speak: Have you not studied the following scripture. "God is spirit and those that worship Him in spirit and in truth". I'm afraid the flesh is hard to put down for some people. However, John the Baptist said it best " I must decrease and He must increase". Until any Christian gets to the point that he/she realizes that they are nothing but filthy rags their witness is nothing. God is to get the glory rather than man/woman. Hopefully, this will help you see the LIGHT and recognize that man is sinful regardless of his position in the body of Christ. Remember this, man will disappoint you every time in this old world. Once you get to this point you can move on to spiritual maturity.

Slow to speak: Are you a Mega Preacher? You sound like one. Whatever transpires is "ordained". Ordained by who? So everyone put aside your spiritual knowledge and just follow the "leader", no matter what they do or say. Wait a minute. JESUS leads me through HIS word. Not the Mega. Sorry boys. You have no follower here.

2 Tim. 4: vs.2-4: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Vs.3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; Vs.4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned into fables".

"Ergun Caner is the President of Liberty Theological Seminary at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. When Caner was named to the position in 2005, he became the first former Muslim to become the leader of an evangelical seminary. Along with his brother Emir, Caner has become a leading voice for evangelicalism on the national stage. He has been a guest on such networks as FOX News, MSNBC, CNBC, the BBC, and TBN.

Caner has debated Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Bah’ai over sixty times at universities and colleges. He has written fourteen books, including When Worldviews Collide (LifeWay 2005), on the subject of Global Apologetics and defending the Christian faith.

-above information from erguncaner.com

~Caner is also sometimes a speaker at youth Christian conferences, which is where I first heard him. He speaks his mind, doesn't care what people think about him, knows how to speak, and is hilarious! He's a great man, and a devout follower of Jesus Christ."

The Fake ex Muslim link says it is frozen and for the owner of the site to contact the 'abuse' team.

http://www.webs.com/abuseFrozen.htm?uname=mokhan247

I was wondering when Caner/Liberty would go legal. I knew they would.

This is how they operate. You see, they have way too much to lose to behave with real healthy fruit.

It would behoove each of us to take a good long look at the names of the Trustees at Liberty...you need to know how wides spread is the rotten fruit in the SBC. Why aren't they holding Liberty accountable? Even resigning over this rotten fruit? Because they are just like them.

You know, these guys (All of the SBC leaders) are not real smart. They are so used to strong arm tactics and they worked for so long, they forget we are in the internet age. The are so used to being in control and shutting folks down they forget that they are just stirring it more now in the internet age.

We get to see firsthand how they deal with things. Before, they could just hide things through layers and claim we do not know all the facts and it was almost impossible to prove anything. But now their strong arm tactics are before the world.

I am laying bets that Caner did this and said he was being threatened. He will play the martyr as he always does.

So, the next time Caner tells someone to trust in God, remind him that he didn't.

It is 3:40pm in London now. I am afraid Khan may not be able to do anything till Monday, when the website (his website hosting company) offices are open. Whoever did it, timed it to occur just before the weekend.

If what has occurred is what I believe has happened, then Ergun Caner will be famous internationally soon for this take down notices. This will add LOT MORE free publicity to Mohammad Khan's work.

"If what has occurred is what I believe has happened, then Ergun Caner will be famous internationally soon for this take down notices. This will add LOT MORE free publicity to Mohammad Khan's work."

Exactly right. Which is why the big boys are not real smart. Of course, now they have to chase Khan and others forever if they decide to spring up other sites and Caner will have to employ someone to do nothing but troll the internet for unfavorable sites about himself. (Which he probably has already recruited a young and gullible follower for that job)

Perhaps Khan received a very threatening letter from a lawyer and decided to react in fear. Unless you are a lawyer, or are sufficiently "lawyered up", those kinds of letters can be very unsettling. Pure speculation of course, but if he did get one of those letters, he needs to POST IT on his web site and have his own lawyer contact the lawyer who wrote it and defend his right to publish his views.

Those lawyers are accountable to their state Bar associations and don't like it when they can't bully people who get their own legal advice.

I hope Khan will contact the Watchdog about any letters he may have received. The WD has fielded many and watched the abusers turn and run with their tails between their legs. All bark and no bite. Except for A.C. Soud and FBC Jax. Those guys issue deacon resolutions and send nasty letters, use the JSO and SAO to obtain federally privacy protected information and then issue trespass warnings and slander the man in the newspaper. That is the "model" of how to deal with disagreeing church members. :)

I did get a very threatening letter from a lawyer of a pastor who wanted to shut down my post about his client. But frankly, we just responded with copies of the news articles on which it was based, and I harbored no ill will toward him...

The London Times Literary Supplement published a review of my book, This Little Light, in its April 16th edition. The review, written by Patrick Lindsay Bowles, is searing and insightful. It's also funny. Where else do you get to read about the "hillbilly pilpulism" of the Southern Baptist Convention? Take a look.

And just think... a lot of people in London are reading about it, too. Thanks to Patrick Lindsay Bowles!

Mohammad’s site will be back up by the weekend and he said it has nothing to do with Dr. Caner.

April 17, 2010 10:34 AM

With all due respect, we simply do not know this for a fact. Khan may not even know or perhaps he does and it is something else. In any case, abuses were reported and the site frozen. I think an explanation is warranted.

And, a lot of the current Caner scandal stuff is not showing up on google search. It was a few days ago. What is up with that?

No Doug, no one deserves to be bullied. You accuse me but do not know me.You are so bitter you cannot control your tongue or emotions No, I am not one of them. I too have been through very much but God has healed me and shown me that He is in control. God is not as concerned with what we go through but how we respond to it.

Honestly, I don't know how Tim Rogers can spew such b.s. from his mouth about Wade Burleson - outright lies and innuendo and hatred, and then get up in the pulpit the next morning as "God's man" and preach the love, grace, and mercy of Jesus Christ. How do these guys do it?

The SBC Today bunch - especially Rogers and David Worley, aka "Volfan", are the worst of the SBC Today bunch. I would call these men "so called SBC pastors" - go read Worley's remarks at SBC Voices - the vitriol and sarcasm as he defended Caner by attacking those who commented there.

The more these guys speak, the more disgraced they become.

I wonder if their own church members read what they spew on the Internet. They better be careful, because they aren't megas, and they likely don't have yes-men deacons and trustees. Someone might actually hold them accountable in their church for their words.

-------------------------------------Source: (bolded for clarity)I would like to clarify that I did not contest to the use of public records. Public records are just that: public and available to anyone that walks into the court room.

I did object to the use of my exact words, copied and pasted onto Mr. Khan’s website and represented as his own words. Doing this is theft, copyright infringement, and plagiarism.

Mr. Khan refused to remedy the situation even after I made the request to him in private email. Unable to resolve the matter privately, I submitted a DMCA takedown notice to the ISP hosting the website where my words which were copied and pasted in exact form with no attribution. Other parts of my writing were mildly reworded or had word order changes, but had no substantial change. If Mr. Khan issues a DMCA counter notice, he must agree to be sued in the United States court, district of Maryland.

I will prayerfully consider defending my copyright in that venue if the situation arises. However, I hope this matter does not escalate further and is resolved by Mr. Khan removing the infringing content from his website, apologizing for his infraction and asking me to retract my DMCA notice. I am a forgiving person. Christ has forgiven an unspeakable multitude of my sins.

Please do not confuse my action to be support for Dr. Caner. My action is support for integrity on both sides. Although Mr. Khan has made many verifiable claims, as long as they are mixed with his own deception they carry little weight in the eyes of the greater community.

I am a woman, and a Calvinist, in the SBC and what Caner is reportedly saying and doing does little to glorify Christ and propagate the preaching of the gospel of Christ. Even though he would like to think that women are not as valuable to the "gospel cause", or Calvinists for that matter, I have to beg to differ. I pray that he would repent for being interested in bringing attention to himself, rather than on Christ.

When a person publicly creates intolerance for others, those who know that he is doing harm need to speak.

And what is this, that Christian people 'laugh' and hoot and holler at minorities and women being belittled?

This speaks to me of people that are ashamed of Christ the Lord. People that can be 'entertained' by that kind of display of intolerance are people that are not followers of the way of Christ. People that need to be 'built up' by looking down on others are not 'of Christ'. What they are doing IS WRONG. It is IMMORAL and is not Christ-honoring.

Perhaps if someone wishes to be a leader of young Christians preparing for the ministry, they might think about who they are serving when they teach the young to laugh at others who are different, or weaker, or less powerful, or in the minority.

What master is being served when intolerance is the lesson of the day? And what master rejoices when the fruits of intolerance are the suffering of its victims? Christ is not being served here.At least, that we can agree on.

About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"