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Thank you for posting your experiences - it's clear that you are torn between the HP-307 and CA93. However, without wishing to complicate matters further, have you considered the LX-10F (HP-307 with partially ebony polish cabinet and improved speakers)?

I do not know why two different CA63 instruments should not sound identical, especially after performing a factory reset - were you listening using headphones, or was this the speaker output?

Quote:

I played on both a CP-1 and a CP308 (has the same key action so I'm told). I dislike the action on both.

This is not quite correct. The CP1/CP5 utilise a new action called 'NW Stage', which is ungraded (all 88 keys are the same weight) and arguably geared towards electric piano playing. The CLPS-308 however does use the 'NW' keyboard action, which should be the same as the CLP370/CLP380.

Anyway, good luck finalising your decision! Both the Roland and Kawai are superb digital pianos, so I'm confident that you will be very happy with either instrument.

Cheers,Jamesx

Thank you for the clarifications on the CP1 and CLPS-308. With all the keyboards out there, it gets hard to keep them all straight and organized in your head!

I did have a brief chance to try the LX-10F but the salesperson mentioned it had the same speaker set up as the HP 307 so I didn't really consider it given that the finish is not a factor for me.

In regards to the differing CA63s, I did notice the sound difference both with speakers and headphones which is why I thought it may have to do with sensitivity on a few keys. My mom had a similar impression. She didn't like the first CA63 and when we went to the second, she was surprised when I told her it was the same model she played earlier.

Thanks for the link. It looks like you've done an impressive amount of work sampling with the dual layered sound feature. I have to admit I didn't play with that much when at the store and will likely need to make another test run to finalize my decision.

The LX-10F has six speakers compared to the four of the HP-307 and due to placement of some in the upper cabinet of the "upright" they also give a more realistic and defined sound projection on the LX-10F.

The LX-10F not only has a different finish but a much different appearing, stark, modern, upright piano design look including having a proper soft-fall keyboard cover rather than a flimsy, sloping slidey thing as on the HP-307 and Kawai CA-63. It also has an extra wide and deep music desk when open reminiscent of a grand piano or very high end upright.

Is that LX-10F the same model that's being advertised together with a separate Yamaha subwoofer (if I recall correctly)?

Yes. By one of those American websites that creates discounted bundles for lots of what they sell including the LX-10F but that apparently don't think that the Kawai CA cabinet pianos are worth selling at all.

...the Roland LX10F is double the price than a KAWAI CA63, and even 1.200 Euro more expensive than a Kawai CA93. You have to decide for yourself if this is worth it and you have the extra money available... an Alternative would be the (not yet released) successor of the KAWAI CA111.

...an Alternative would be the (not yet released) successor of the KAWAI CA111.

Where did you get that information?? Sounds too good to be true. A new CA-111 with the RM-3 Keyboard

Kawai James mentioned that he would _hope_ that there would be such instument once. Please do not read more into this than what's intended; he specifically stated that currenty there is no such product in the works; it's not in any way announced, maybe not even decided on, or planned at all.

This is exactly what I intended to say!Sorry it was not my intention to cause any confusion.

And it was not my intent to imply that your words caused confusion: I just wanted to be extra-careful not to give something into Kawai James's mouth which he did not say.

(He always insists that it's not his decision to announce new models; I would hate to see him reprimanded by his bosses based on rumors spreading on the forums, especially when he is always careful not to say more than allowed to. So we should also take care to quote him accurately.)

...the Roland LX10F is double the price than a KAWAI CA63, and even 1.200 Euro more expensive than a Kawai CA93. You have to decide for yourself if this is worth it and you have the extra money available...

it really depends from where you live: over here the street prices of Kawai digitals are a lot higher (in MSRP % terms) than Roland's, it really depends from your local stores. Of course this is not applicable in Europe given Thomann etc.

...the Roland LX10F is double the price than a KAWAI CA63, and even 1.200 Euro more expensive than a Kawai CA93. You have to decide for yourself if this is worth it and you have the extra money available... an Alternative would be the (not yet released) successor of the KAWAI CA111.

A competitively priced successor to the CA111 would be very interesting. It is a real cabinet compared to the LX-10F.

When comparing prices, you really need to compare actual quotes for the instruments. No one pays list price ( I hope !)

The best quotes I have for the two instruments are:

LX-10F 3300,CA93 2960,

making the difference in price only 340 which is a small price to pay to have an instrument with a nice and realistic piano sound that doesn't require you to buy a PC and a software package like Pianoteq or Galaxy like we see from various of the owners of the Kawai instruments posting here which easily could add 500 euros or more to the price of the CA93.

Hahaha, almost clever, you seem to be somewhat frustrated, the Journey. Is Kawai selling too many products in 2010 or what is it? It could be even more if they had proper marketing like Roland or Yamaha, right?

Seriously, whether you or me like it or not, these hardware products are quite close competitors in performance. An interesting addition, which you noticed before about the LX-10F, is: "By the way, it is interesting that Kraft is suggesting to bundle an expensive Yamaha sub-woofer with the piano...don't see any retailers of the Kawai CA93 suggesting that the instrument needs more support in the bass department."

Well, to be honest I don't see any dealers other than this one US company (that loves to put together big bundles of stuff with high margins to try to make better deals) doing so.

I agree though that it is interesting. Not quite as interesting as the fact that almost no dealers around these parts are choosing to sell the Kawai instruments full stop, with or without an expensive sub-woofer...

By the way, what is the frequency response on your CA93 transducer driven soundboard compared to the Yamaha subwoofer? You might want to consider getting an HS10W yourself.

Have finally found a dealer within theoretical striking distance that has a HP-307, LX-10F, CA93, CA63 and K5ATX all on the floor for comparison. Now just to find the moment to spend a whole day journeying with my trusty Sennheisers to the German border...

By the way, check out the new Tom & Sean TV show on the Kawai US site...Tom's southern articulation is pretty hard to follow and Sean looks like he must have really tied one on the night before at the local Irish Pub before the video was filmed, but they have joined the video generation.

By the way, check out the new Tom & Sean TV show on the Kawai US site...Tom's southern articulation is pretty hard to follow and Sean looks like he must have really tied one on the night before at the local Irish Pub before the video was filmed, but they have joined the video generation.

I think the baggy eyes are a genetic thing with Sean, and Tom's accent doesn't sound at too pronounced to me, though I spent much of my formative youth in the south, so I'm probably rather immune.

But I can't tell much difference between the three "different" pianos in the demo. And the harpsichord sounds kind of thin. And the strings sound kind of lame.

But I can't tell much difference between the three "different" pianos in the demo.

I noticed the same, quite a lame playback i.m.h.o. (and I'm not referring to the MP3 decoder); they could also use some custom settings in dual voice mode, demonstrating the Virtual Technician in action.

Have finally found a dealer within theoretical striking distance that has a HP-307, LX-10F, CA93, CA63 and K5ATX all on the floor for comparison. Now just to find the moment to spend a whole day journeying with my trusty Sennheisers to the German border...

Well, that's nothing new. By the way, I had a talk with the owner of Vriese Music Palace (Doetinchem) somewhere back in February this year. He had visited the Winter NAMM and played the CA93 over there, which he described in his experience as very exciting and if he had to compare it with something, the AvantGrand came to mind. Send him my regards, will you?

Have finally found a dealer within theoretical striking distance that has a HP-307, LX-10F, CA93, CA63 and K5ATX all on the floor for comparison. Now just to find the moment to spend a whole day journeying with my trusty Sennheisers to the German border...

Well, that's nothing new. By the way, I had a talk with the owner of Vriese Music Palace (Doetinchem) somewhere back in February this year. He had visited the Winter NAMM and played the CA93 over there, which he described in his experience as very exciting and if he had to compare it with something, the AvantGrand came to mind. Send him my regards, will you?

theJourney, I'm really looking forward to your review after the visit, although, considering your recent comments about KAWAI in this and other threads, it doesn't make me confident that the review will be unbiased... but let's see!

Biased? Yeah, I suppose I am, Kawaien, er, um mucci.After all: Kawai is the only brand of real piano I own:

A day doesn't go by that I don't play Kawai...

However, just because a manufacturer builds IMO one of the best and best value real acoustic pianos on the market, doesn't mean that they automatically also build the best or best value fake pianos. I hope they all (Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Korg, Casio, et al) keep pushing the envelope and competing earnestly so that we all can enjoy the benefits of improved realism and utility!

Had a look at that AvantGrand, and while I admire the technology I'm not sure I see the point of it! I mean its the size of a grand and sounds like a grand, so why not get an acoustic grand! Unfortunately I can't hear how it sounds as our sound card has gone belly up-summat to do with the AC97 doo dah.

_________________________
If the piano is the King of instruments then I am its loyal servant.

However, just because a manufacturer builds IMO one of the best and best value real acoustic pianos on the market, doesn't mean that they automatically also build the best or best value fake pianos.

I never ever claimed that. Or what is your point? I don't get it.

Originally Posted By: theJourney

I hope they all (Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Korg, Casio, et al) keep pushing the envelope and competing earnestly so that we all can enjoy the benefits of improved realism and utility!

Any signs that this is not the case? You're the one that accuses (or at least denotes) namely KAWAI to do needless features (like wooden keys) just for marketing reasons, and, on the other side, purposely omit features from cheaper models, again just for marketing purposes (which is obviously something that all brands do).

Even though you claim you're playing on an acoustic KAWAI grand, I somehow have the feeling, that there must have been a special experience that keeps you so distant from KAWAI DPs. I have no idea what this might be... maybe some bad experience with specific salespersons in the past, or just the plain fact that there is no possibility to try and purchase a KAWAI DP nearby, or just the sheer joy of arguing and getting replies from alleged KAWAI fanboys, who knows. Anyway, as Kawai James has stated on several occasions (or at least similar to his statement) - it's always a pleasure to read your posts (and to be amused by them since most of them meet my expectations).

However, just because a manufacturer builds IMO one of the best and best value real acoustic pianos on the market, doesn't mean that they automatically also build the best or best value fake pianos.

I never ever claimed that. Or what is your point? I don't get it.

Originally Posted By: theJourney

I hope they all (Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Korg, Casio, et al) keep pushing the envelope and competing earnestly so that we all can enjoy the benefits of improved realism and utility!

Any signs that this is not the case? You're the one that accuses (or at least denotes) namely KAWAI to do needless features (like wooden keys) just for marketing reasons, and, on the other side, purposely omit features from cheaper models, again just for marketing purposes (which is obviously something that all brands do).

Even though you claim you're playing on an acoustic KAWAI grand, I somehow have the feeling, that there must have been a special experience that keeps you so distant from KAWAI DPs. I have no idea what this might be... maybe some bad experience with specific salespersons in the past, or just the plain fact that there is no possibility to try and purchase a KAWAI DP nearby, or just the sheer joy of arguing and getting replies from alleged KAWAI fanboys, who knows. Anyway, as Kawai James has stated on several occasions (or at least similar to his statement) - it's always a pleasure to read your posts (and to be amused by them since most of them meet my expectations).

Still have that aggressive, pro-Kawai chip on your shoulder, eh? You apparently can't imagine anyone having legitimate preferences or judgement that don't match your own, therefore accusing others of traumas or bias and making false claims and then making veiled personal attacks against them. Not very polite, if I might say so, and certainly a violation of the terms of service of pianoworld.

You really should try to keep an open mind, my friend, while at the same time not taking everything so personally. It is not acceptable to constantly make arguments against the man instead of the subject matter.

Speaking of subject matter, have you tried TADutchman's promising sounding virtual piano settings or are you still using pianoteq layers to get the sound you are looking for out of your new CA63?