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Wow I was like 10 when the Pacers had this long of a losing streak.
My daughter is just a year younger than that now

This is nothing. Think about the early and mid 80s. I used to get drilled by locals for wearing a pacers starter jacket when we were like 26-56. They were merciless. I'm sure they eventually became FANS.

(One final thought: I don't even care anymore that we'd be helping the Bulls get a lot better. This summer we need to trade JO for a package that includes Ben Gordon. We desperately need a big shot guard and I could see Paxson parting with BG if it got them JO.)

To do a trade like that the Pacers would have to take back a large salary and the only player they have is Ben Wallace. Five million less per year but the same number of years. that would be the starting point.
I seriosly doubt they would add BG to even out the trade. Maybe a cast off and a first round pick. Heck would they even want JO?

Wow, Ive been a realist about the talent level of our current team, but JO or no JO I would have thought that we would have been able to beat Philly if we actually showed some effort. If we don't have the talent to match up against Philly (even without JO), its so much worse than I thought.

Wow, Ive been a realist about the talent level of our current team, but JO or no JO I would have thought that we would have been able to beat Philly if we actually showed some effort. If we don't have the talent to match up against Philly (even without JO), its so much worse than I thought.

Damn man.....just damn.

Without JO AND Quis, we don't.

At least, not developed talent.

But it's close.

At a preseason game this year, I actually asked Roaming Gnome "What if this team just isn't that good?" And then, shortly after the trade, I said "I could see us finishing below .500." I could kind of see this coming, though I didn't think we'd tank quite this badly.

But there's still time to turn it around. We need JO and Quis back, though.

Skip Bayless:

"Derek Fisher will prove to be a much better NBA head coach than Steve Kerr."

"The Houston Texans will forever regret it if they do not take Johnny Manziel with the No. 1 overall pick. He will haunt them."

I really enjoyed watching this group, why, simple, they played hard, semi smart, and unselfish.

A couple of observations.

DG needs a go to move, something. I really hope he works on a drive pull up ala Jalen in the offseason. He has nothing right now and to go to that next level he needs something.

Tying into DG go to move, the Pacers don't have a clutch guy. So weird watching Mr. Clutch sitting there with Tank Thompson. JO or not the Pacers don't have one. Closest guy who can create is Daniels and I fear he may one of these 3/5 a season guy for his career.

Tying into Daniels is that the Pacers don't have a penetrator. I'm not counting Tinsley circus out of control crap. There is no one who can drive and kick. I liked McLeod tonight and he does seem fairly quick but he doesn't drive.

Tying into being hard to drive, every play is called, everytime down. Have the Suns called a play besides an end of quarter or inbounds all year? I'm not going to beat a dead horse on this, though, but come on these guys have played basketball before.

I liked Harrison imposing himself in a semi controlled way, he's a tough cover.

Tying into a tough cover, IKE is really really good. I really think he should get 30 minutes a night, ya he turned it over, ya it would have to come at Fosters expense, but I tell you he is the only low post player on the team and excluding HULK cuz he doesn't play, whatever the reason and yes I'm included JO, cuz JO doesn't go down there anymore and can't take the punishment. JO at least doesn't get position like IKE and i tell you if IKE did get more burn he could be a guy like Elton Brand who gets to the line 8 times a game after the refs understand his game. I can't tell you how high I am on IKE.

Maybe I"m being biased, but it really seems to me he scores a point per every 2 minutes on average regardless of how many minutes he plays. I don't think you can guard him one on one. He's also not a small guy, pretty thick and imposes his physical prescence. Lastly, I like that yelling when he finishes a dunk hard. It comes across as pumped us, not arrogant to me. Plus he almost never cries to the refs. I really think Carlise needs to play him for the future of the franchise.

I guess overall I'm not to bleak about the future with Green who I think can be a good role player and will get better. Ike with the potential to be on of the best low post threats in the league, he still looks like he has alot of room to get better too. DG already a legit starter, but again with room to really take it to that next level. All three of these guys are 4 years away from their prime and I really like all three.

I hate to jump on the bandwagon, but they just need a real point guard. How much better would this team be if Andre Miller were here instead of Tinsley. I really believe with that one move, they would be a top 3 seed in the week sister east and a legit chance to come out of the east.

Now Dunleavy I love him coming off those picks for the 20 footer, I hate watching Phillies Greene lighting him up like a Christmas tree. Can we teach Dunleavy one post move so he can actually take advantage of his height, he might as well be 6'4".

I'm so hot and cold on Murphy, I fear if the Pacers make the playoffs he'll be worthless. If a team really scouts him it's really pretty simple. Play him for the jump shot and don't let him drive left. I think of Austin and his jab step. Once teams got that all Austin could do was either shoot or drive all the way to the hoop w/o an in between Austin became unplayable almost. Murphy can shoot, but it's wasted, again because we have no one to drive and kick to him. With all of this said, I like him because he will stick his nose in there some and he plays hard every night, but he's an average defender, he's a below average passer.

Foster, I haven't seen him. I hope this isn't the beginning of the end for his career.

Overall, a good game, love to see the young guys. I really agree with the group, if Tinsley never takes that awkard set shot or dribbles really cool before throwing it to the other team or tries to reach around and knock the ball away as the player he's guarding blows by him... if he never does any of these things as a Pacer again, I would be estatic. I'd honestly rather have McLeod play the point, at least he plays hard.

Really? I don't know - I don't think he's playing much differently, I just think his weaknesses are completely exposed when he plays with the second unit guys. I don't see a dramatic reduction in how he is playing the game, even if a statistical difference exists.

Danny seems fine to me. I'd like to hear what some lobo fans have to say about Danny the younger vs. Danny the elder.

He's reverted to camping on the three-point line, and when he doesn't he goes to the goal with no control, which is also un-Granger-like. And on defense, I can't even count how many times he's lost his man in the past few games, or got caught up in a rotation. And in the past two games he's had trouble just dribbling the ball, and I've seen a couple of plays where he made no effort to go after it (though he redeemed himself with a hustle block tonight).

i honestly would be fine with keith starting the rest of the season. i've liked the little i've seen of him. he's not a star, certainly doesn't have tinsley's talent/potential. but he knows his limitations and doesn't force anything. not astounding numbers but 6pts and 6ast in 25min. he's got more control than orien, more legs than DA and more sense/consistency than tinsley. i'd like to see him and Quis (when/if he returns this season) play some minutes together to see how well that combo would work.

im sort of surprised maceo didn't see action. i've been really impressed with the minutes he has played this season. and with JO out... maybe we'll see more against cleveland.

as for the JO to Chicago trade...
my suspicion is that the only reason the Pau Gasol deal didn't go down is if the bulls felt relatively confident that they would get either KG or JO this summer and either of those players would be better than pau (because pau can't play defense and KG/JO are well rounded players in that regard) but i believe KG would be #1 on chicago's list. i think they'd part with gordon or deng AND duhon for JO because just having a lowpost scoring option would be great for their offense but to have two bigs that can play defense and are serious shot blocking threats? even if say they did a trade of...

DUHON, DENG, GORDON, DRAFT PICK for JO

they'd still have a starting lineup of:

HINRICH
GRIFFIN
NOCIONI (i'd assume they'd resign him)
O'NEAL
WALLACE

thats a crazy defensive team, hinrich and nocioni as your outside threats, JO down low and they ALL can play great defense. then they've got thomas, sefolosha off the bench and whatever other players they bring in they've got a couple of expring contracts (brown, allen, sweetney).

thats close to what memphis was asking for gasol and i think paxon would do it (or be less reluctant to do it) for o'neal or garnett BECAUSE you're getting offense BUT with the defense too. a better investment -- but it'd be hard to trade deng AND gordon to a division rival for only JO. i think they could live with gordon and duhon and a pick. ultimately to make that deal we'd need a third team involved. now i'd put a JO to Bulls deal at around a 25-30% chance of happening. but i believe the bulls will make a major trade for a big (Kevin Garnett 60-65%, 5-15% someone other than KG/JO) ... unless they win a championship this year... then i see them keeping their major players and adding a lesser big man (like maybe darko or drew gooden)

I'd love to get Duhon, Gordon, and a pick for JO. (making the $ match up could be a challenge) Deng is a future star so I can't see him being included.

This deal would instantly solve our backcourt problems, and only create a minor problem up front. (We'd need to make another move for a solid center. Murphy and Ike are solid 4s and Harrison could be a nice backup 5.)

He's reverted to camping on the three-point line, and when he doesn't he goes to the goal with no control, which is also un-Granger-like. And on defense, I can't even count how many times he's lost his man in the past few games, or got caught up in a rotation. And in the past two games he's had trouble just dribbling the ball, and I've seen a couple of plays where he made no effort to go after it (though he redeemed himself with a hustle block tonight).

Wow - I'll have to start paying more attention.

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

To do a trade like that the Pacers would have to take back a large salary and the only player they have is Ben Wallace. Five million less per year but the same number of years. that would be the starting point.
I seriosly doubt they would add BG to even out the trade. Maybe a cast off and a first round pick. Heck would they even want JO?

I would rather do a S&T with Chicago (IF we have to deal with them) for Hinrich, include something like P.J. Brown and I think your a lot closer allready then.