Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

When I just started aikido I used to buy the idea that strength doesn't matter at all. It's a lovely idea. The first dojo I trained at train in a way where uke very actively "takes ukemi". It was easy to believe that strength doesn't matter in that setting.

The dojo I train at now uke pays more attention to what is actually happening to them. Lower grades are asked to train very cooperatively, because in the beginning trying to handle a lot of force is just going to ingrain bad habit. But later we do test things a bit more.

I got really depressed about aikido somewhere along there, a couple years back. I wondered what the point is if many of the guys could just literally pick me up and set me down outside the mat if they wanted to.

Kinda funny really when you think about it, we're supposed to be doing this non competitive art so who am I competing with then?

I've had to do some thinking since and what it boils down to for me is that it's ok that I'm not a supernatural uber being goddess of world, I can just be plain old little me and that's enough. What I needed to do was let go of some insecurity that actually in a twisted way stemmed from a lot of arrogance if that makes any sense. An insecurity of "I know I'm awesome but what if no one else will acknowledge that?". Sort of thing. I'm more ok with just being an ordinary person nowadays, and just doing the best I can.

Funny thing is some of the guys feel a bit guilty about being so easily able to stop me, too. I think that really says something about aikido culture.

Nice post, and believe me, there are guys plagued by the same kinds of issues. It isn't as in your face for us on a daily basis, but it's still there.

Quote:

Agreed...unfortunately in this society there are a lot of men who have gone around conning women "into believing" they don't have "power". Beta men buy into the con...

Well, that's nice, but how does it apply to this thread? No one here has said that women "don't have power". What they have said is that on average, women are not as strong as men. Then the thought police came on full bore. I see you fit in nicely there...

Quote:

When I put a "knife" in the hands of my women students they don't need to go to "fake internal" seminars.

Gratuitous shot. You should know better. If they are fake, then show up and debunk them.

Again, no one said that a knife isn't a great equalizer, no matter who is weilding it. Same could be said of some teenage junkie against a well trained judoka and aikidoka from the Bond street dojo in the seventies. Guy dismissed kid as not a threat, and died for his trouble. Same probably happens every day with women too.

It's never smart to dismiss your opponant, even if you don't know they are one, yet.

Best,
Ron (it's Yoshin-Orc, not Yoshin-Oaf)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

IMHO-My two cents worth.
Pound for pound in untrained wrestling the weaker may lose because of less strength, a lucky hit, or loss of will to fight.
Add training to the equation and a well placed throat strike wins no matter who throws it!
Add a weapon and it is training and skill. For example, I am sure at 240 pounds I far outweigh Jennifer Smith but give us both a knife or a sword I am probably going down, and the more I use my weight the easier I am to defeat, and the madder I get the greater my openings. Again, a well placed strike to the throat with a knife I bleed to death almost immediately and when she uses her sword there goes my head!
Final thought-I am 6 feet 240 pounds 52 years old with a third degree in Taekwondo and 15 months in Aikido and ex-military police and have had my share of unwanted street fights and never lost (except my tears over having to injure another human being) and now imagine O Sensei at barely 5 feet and less than 140 at the age of 52 and you know his training. Now we fight unarmed and armed with a knife and then armed with a sword. Place your bets!
Doc
p.s. In my opinion the fight would never occur but imagine if it did.

"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will"
Gandhi

IMHO-My two cents worth.
Pound for pound in untrained wrestling the weaker may lose because of less strength, a lucky hit, or loss of will to fight.
Add training to the equation and a well placed throat strike wins no matter who throws it!
Add a weapon and it is training and skill. For example, I am sure at 240 pounds I far outweigh Jennifer Smith but give us both a knife or a sword I am probably going down, and the more I use my weight the easier I am to defeat, and the madder I get the greater my openings. Again, a well placed strike to the throat with a knife I bleed to death almost immediately and when she uses her sword there goes my head!
Final thought-I am 6 feet 240 pounds 52 years old with a third degree in Taekwondo and 15 months in Aikido and ex-military police and have had my share of unwanted street fights and never lost (except my tears over having to injure another human being) and now imagine O Sensei at barely 5 feet and less than 140 at the age of 52 and you know his training. Now we fight unarmed and armed with a knife and then armed with a sword. Place your bets!
Doc
p.s. In my opinion the fight would never occur but imagine if it did.

Everyone keeps introducing other factors into a simple discussion.
Using a model of traned athletes such weight lifters doesn't pan out either. That's a 1.6 advantage for men over trained women. But how trained and ready is the average guy to the average girl. I'd bet the average man will increase that ratio advantage in day to day living.

I was talking about violence and force on force fighting. That's a more complex subject, and one which your average male owns.
Men and women in any discussion should be an average example.
It has been proven that women respond to violence differently than men do. It’s why model mugging and so many other successful self defense/rape courses focus on the mindset of women in conflict over martial art thingies for them to do. Those progams were developed from real life violent acts and what not to do.
They recognized you had average womens muscle; you had the average mind activating that muscle. You had an average mental state of women in delivery of violenc and it was different in women.

That is why I'd bet on the average man over the average women every time. And its not necessarily good thing is it? It also leads to many bad traits as well, which is why the need for those programs in the first place.

Even the weight difference between two men being the weight difference between two women, the difference between the two men is of lesser importance. Its goes back to delivery of violence and what the average guy’s life experience will have allowed him to bring to the fore.
Pound for pound in equal training of full on fighting? A woman will get her ass handed to her. Never confuse martial arts with fighting. And if a woman wants to learn to fight, she learns to play all the odds of advantage that martial arts can offer, and then add mental readiness and planning to beat the average attacker or prevent it from ever happening. That is doable and attainable. Encountering mental preparedness and lack of fear will be daunting enough for most men as it is shocking and will make them question why its there in the first place-which was another factor realized by interviewing bad guys who attack women.

Dare I say it?
Internal training is a whole other aspect of MA that will give a women a tremendous advantage as well.

Personally I'd rather just enjoy where and why my wife is better and stronger at things than me and helps me. Not the least of which is her mind.

You forgot to talk about the latest studies which indicated that the "women of the harem" choose the alpha male. They decide how far he moves up the hierarchy. They also remove him when he can no longer present or perform. In fact, in some societies they will "kill" him.

best,
Joseph t. Oliva Arriola

That wasn't my point, Joseph. My point was that women have less muscle and bone density because it is not necessary, and in fact may be a waste of resources for them. Their energies are centered on bearing young and garnering the resources with which to raise them - either on their own or via a male; males' energies are centered on garnering turf/territory (on which to keep females) and on chasing off male competitors. It's true for humans and most other mammals (excluding hyenas and certain other species) and birds (a big exception being raptors, where the female is larger and more powerful than the male).

That wasn't my point, Joseph. My point was that women have less muscle and bone density because it is not necessary, and in fact may be a waste of resources for them. Their energies are centered on bearing young and garnering the resources with which to raise them - either on their own or via a male; males' energies are centered on garnering turf/territory (on which to keep females) and on chasing off male competitors. It's true for humans and most other mammals (excluding hyenas and certain other species) and birds (a big exception being raptors, where the female is larger and more powerful than the male).

No...but it was my point.

Furthermore, in most insects, in several species the female is bigger and larger. Think of the preying mantis and the black widow spider.

In mammals, such as the elephant we see strength and control by the "alpha female". She rules the herd and all males are subordinate to her.

In humans, IMO, a female's power is in "rocking the cradle" and influencing the behavior of her children.

I can't say I disagree with your arguments, but take a look at Kyra Gracie, pound for pound she smokes the crap out of at one guy on this video. I think it is safe to say that even though I am much bigger and stronger than her, I think she'd probably chew me up and spit me out in a short order.

You are agreeing to play nice.
If you stood outside her range and used YOUR full range of combatives? Like beating her about the face with your fists and feet instead of rolling on the floor and not being allowed to be you... in all your glory?
Or do you suppose she can hit as hard as you?

My fist is bigger than most woman's faces. The thought of hitting one is appalling.
You will NEVER see women in any full-on force venue compete with a man. Ain't gonna happen.
Why does there need to be. Women are better than men at many things. My wife proves it to me over and over. Do we need to compete all the time? So, we're different. I happen to like all the differences, and as I suggested about women competing? I look at it obejctively and I use those differences to my advantage too. Such as "Honey you're so amazing at planning vacations- you should just go ahead and do it." Or "I'll do the grocery shopping, You just do four more admittions and help our retirement fund." Pappa didn't raise a fool

Pound for pound in equal training of full on fighting? A woman will get her ass handed to her. Never confuse martial arts with fighting. And if a woman wants to learn to fight, she learns to play all the odds of advantage that martial arts can offer, and then add mental readiness and planning to beat the average attacker or prevent it from ever happening. That is doable and attainable.

That is the bottom line.

This sort of discussion is an "all things being equal" discussion. Sure, we can introduce all sorts of "other" things (swords, superior training, etc.) that can and will tip the balance one way or the other. But that should be self-evident and in no way changes the basic point.

But nothing in thereal world is ever "all things being equal". Each person brings a unique balance of attributes to the discussion. Some are stronger, some are weaker, some have better form, some are more cunning, and some have blades hidden in their pocket... So IMHO opinion the best strategy is to be honest with yourself about your strengths and weaknesses. Thinking that strength doesn't matter is just plain silly. It does matter. The bigger question is are you good enough to overcome the strength advantage an attacker may have?

I don't worry so much about tiny little people with no training attacking me. I do have sensei who are smaller than me (well, all of them are smaller than me) who are better than me. Superior technique makes a difference. So I worry about people who are bigger and stronger than me attacking me. Or people with better form. Or worse yet people who are stronger than me with better form. Yikes. Or nightmare scenario of someone using force magnifiers to tip the balance to their side.

So you work on what you can improve. Just don't wave away strength differences as somehow not relevant. They are. They are part of the thing we need to pay attention to in order to improve our skills to deal with that guy who is stronger and tougher. And that's where aikido's strength really lies IMHO, dealing with someone bigger and stronger. It ain't easy for a reason...

And all of the side issues, and "I don't like how that sounds" won't change the simple fact.

So I say, step up to the challenge.

Hear hear!

Or, don't, and learn to live with it.

I think what happens is that people confuse strength with power and control. And similarity with equal worth. Like arguing that apples really are just like oranges because they are both good for you. And not wanting to hear that apples really are quite different from oranges, as if that would somehow make them less worthy of a fruit.

So I'm weaker and less aggressive than many/most men. Does that make me less valuable a human being, of course not. Should I take it into account? Yes. Should it make me feel bad about myself? Of course not.

Furthermore, in most insects, in several species the female is bigger and larger. Think of the preying mantis and the black widow spider.

In mammals, such as the elephant we see strength and control by the "alpha female". She rules the herd and all males are subordinate to her.

In humans, IMO, a female's power is in "rocking the cradle" and influencing the behavior of her children.

Joseph,
As soon as you get away from mammals and into invertebrates, the scenario changes completely. Don't get me started with bees and other communal insects, where the females are all so closely related that they could be considered almost clones, and males are stingless drones who are tossed out after they have done their sole job: to fertilize the fertile female.

Elephants -- the male/bull elephant is still larger and stronger muscularly than the female, and a rogue bull can destroy a family unit's young and females. But we won't go there, either.

The one issue that everyone here seems to be missing, is that the very type of physical activity being discussed here -- male ritual combat ("fighting") is just that: male ritual fighting. You are comparing apples to oranges when you superimpose female capabilities onto what is and has always been a male-specific activity. In humans, it has been abstracted to create a broader arena (no play on words intended) into which women have made a fit ranging from unwieldy to comfortable, but essentially it is absurd to ask "how does a female fighter compare to a male fighter of equal skill and average build"; it's like asking, "How does a female fare in fighting men in male ritual combat?"

Why would you ponder how women will fare if trying to "beat a man at his own game"? Ridiculous.

We take it for granted because this biologically-rooted social behavior is so pervasive in all human culture in some form or other, whether as bar fights, football games, wrestling, or belching contests. One key feature of MRC is that one party eventually backs down, and the other "grants him mercy." I watch my pet roosters go through this ritual every day, and if one is injured or killed, it is very rare and normally accidental.

Sure, women get in the ring, women play competitive sports. But there are degrees and varied angles as well as societal pressures that compare the way women play sports to the way men do (women are lauded for playing "like men"). Ever watch some women play hoops with finesse and artfulness, as compared to some men using their height and jump to make up for actual skill?

And, in Nature, there is no black-and-white in defining individual women (or men). Some produce more androgens and less estrogen/progesterone than others, just as some men produce more less testosterone than others; it will be evident in their physiques and other traits.

Now, if you want to talk about the actual ability of a woman to knock out or kill a guy, that's another topic. A 200 lb man can be killed by a mere 10 lb. weight if applied properly. You don't need a lot of muscle to drop a man on his ass.

But let's keep the "What if Spartacus Had Had a Piper Cub"** kinda questions out of this, 'k?

** Reference to 1970s Saturday Night Live comedy sketch, in which absurd questions were pondered and played out in a "what if" scenario.

So I'm weaker and less aggressive than many/most men. Does that make me less valuable a human being, of course not.

I dunno, Pauliina.... how much are you worth, simply as "a human being"?

How much are you worth if you simply sit on the front porch and do nothing productive in life? How much, in comparison, are you worth if you contribute a lot to society? Our "worth" varies in relation to what we do, not just in relation to the fact that we exist. What I think is important is that we value and enjoy our lives.

One of the things I noticed in my years in Asia was that many people accepted who they were and had pride in themselves regardless of status, skills, ability to fight, and so on. There was never a need, that I saw, to pretend that everyone was intrinsically "equal" (which is really a status worry, if we think about it). We are who/what we are. Holland is rainy.

The one issue that everyone here seems to be missing, is that the very type of physical activity being discussed here -- male ritual combat ("fighting") is just that: male ritual fighting. You are comparing apples to oranges when you superimpose female capabilities onto what is and has always been a male-specific activity. In humans, it has been abstracted to create a broader arena (no play on words intended) into which women have made a fit ranging from unwieldy to comfortable, but essentially it is absurd to ask "how does a female fighter compare to a male fighter of equal skill and average build"; it's like asking, "How does a female fare in fighting men in male ritual combat?"

Why would you ponder how women will fare if trying to "beat a man at his own game"? Ridiculous.

Ahhh...that's why I teach women "yin/internal" method. They play a different game. Yet, most teachers (male and female) insist that everyone "all students" should move like the majority of "men" students.

So, I agree..."MALE PRESENTATION, male ritual combat is one of evolution's means of demonstrating "the alpha male" and his superior immune system. (Nonetheless, the act of presentation has to do with the female's CHOICE.)

Nonetheless, in nature...females do most of the killing and males do most of the scavenging.

It is not a matter of one being better than the other. Females are powerful in their "sensitivities" and Males are powerful in their physical strength (notwithstanding outliers). Each plays a role.

I for one, sit in my chair watching the Celtics trounce the Lakers. But, then I know my place. When the game is over, I follow my wife's orders, "Go take out the garbage". And then angrily I say to myself "I know who the boss is!"

Let's talk about how we will find our strength together...man and woman helping each other embrace their seperate frailties. Our strength comes from the process of awareness and union.
Aikido training where uke and nage work together so both become resilient and soft is a perfect vehicle for the blooming strengths of man and woman.

I'm not Ron (at least I'm pretty sure I'm not...) but I'll give my interpretation of the challenge in how it directly affects me and my aikido. I'm over 200 pounds. 6 feet tall. Good, solid barrel chested Norwegian stock. That combined with my Welsh grandfather's oddly short legs (proportionally that is). So here I am at 6 feet tall with a slightly under 30 inch inseam. Which basically means I'm mostly upper body on top of two muscle stumps I like to call legs. Given all that trying to throw me is much like trying to toss a Buick. Things better be just right.

My challenge? Not to use the large chest, strong back muscles, low center of gravity or the strong legs to overpower my training partners. I know I'm big. It is easy to fall back on that. My continual goal is to learn to move with grace and elegance while controlling the attacker with as little of that strength and mass as possible. I have no problem bringing the strength and mass into play -- I've done enough other arts to have zero problem with that. The challenge, for me, is to develop the grace and elegance I often see in some of the smaller, lighter people who can throw and control me. In other words my challenge is to not rely on the strength over form. And to develop more of the power that comes not from muscle but from proper alignment, form, and integration/coordination of the movement and mind.

Ironically it is the same challenge facing those who are smaller, lighter and less strong. My advantage is that I can easily cheat a bit. Or a lot.

Mary, your appeal to that other type of strength in your other post is just fine and I agree with you in some senses and scenarios. But it is a totally different topic. Your post is very poetic and lovely, however, it really isn't what we were talking about as you're talking about a more poetic and less specific idea of strength. As my old philosophy profs used to tell me you have to be really careful you're not arguing in circles simply because you're using words differently. There is no point in having a discussion if the word meaning is going to be changed according to each individual's particular point of view. We have to be on the same page to have a meaningful discussion.

I could not agree more...;o)
That said...
Let's talk about how we will find our strength together...man and woman helping each other embrace their seperate frailties. Our strength comes from the process of awareness and union.
Mary

Hi ya Mary
Well, I have been doing that my whole life. And having quite a bit of fun while doing it. She still likes me!!

Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:

Aikido training where uke and nage work together so both become resilient and soft is a perfect vehicle for the blooming strengths of man and woman.

Well no, I can't go there, kiddo.
I don't see any femininity or masculinity in softness. And if you are trying to equate softness to feminine-the only thing I 'd offer is "The softer I get the more I break people." I have to be really careful when I am feeling all warm and fuzzy in the Dojo

Softness-when done correctly in the martial arts is the key to overwhelming and controlling power. It doesn't require any cooperation or agreement between people (men or women or otherwise) rather it culminates in the control of one party, with the other party not really dong much. It does lead to lots of laughter and warm and fuzzy feelings though.
We should get together sometime and play, I love the Berkshires we could compare notes. I'd have to be the soft feminine one though. You can be the bruiser.