The origin of this name is a G/B deck featuring Phyrexian Plaguelord and Deranged Hermit, originally made by Jelger Wiegersma many, many years ago for Urza Block Constructed PTQs. It was plucked from the internet by Sol Malka, who tuned and popularized it and named the deck “The Rock and its Millions”. Jeroen Remie (the world’s most renowned Rock expert) explained that this name came from a WWE wrestler named The Rock (he later became an actor). His special gimmick was that he channeled the power of all of his fans, so that was The Rock and his Millions. In terms of the Magic deck that borrowed the name, The Rock refers to Phyrexian Plaguelord and his Millions, which refers to Deranged Hermit. People then played this “The Rock and its Millions” deck for a long time, and the “Rock” part of that name stuck even after the namesake cards were removed. People started associating “Rock” with any mid-range Green/Black deck, not just the Phyrexian Plaguelord version. And over the course of the years, “Rock” has become a synonym for any Green/Black mid-range deck.

2. Playstyle

The Rock refers to the control ability of the deck. It is what you fall back on, your “Rock.” When I first started playing in late 90’s early 2000’s, I remember first hearing of the “Rock” deck and wondered what it meant. I received various responses, but many replied with, “Answers to everything.” The Rock plays varying amounts of threats, coupled with both proactive and reactive spells to control the game to the point where we can win. This sounds like most decks, but it really isn’t. Rock is typically played in some combination of Black, White, and Green. Rock rarely plays vanilla creatures, opting instead for Evasion, comes into play effects, or creatures that are just plain devastating and must be answered when they hit the table. Rock also plays efficient trumps to other threats, commonly known as “answers.” Most of these include spell based answers to permanents, and discard for hand-based threats. Rock is very much a reactive deck, foiling your Plan A with its regular style of play, called “Plan A” by the Rock player. Should your Plan B happen to come online, Rock usually has some sort of answer for that too, also commonly called “Plan A” by the Rock player. What Rock lacks in specified answers it makes up for in cards that are generally good in most situations, rather than pinpoint reactions against pinpoint cards. Most choices cover an archetype of a strategy, such as Aggro or say, Control trumps. This is quite the opposite of many inclusions in many decks, in which X is an answer for Y, whereas in Rock, X is an answer for M through Z.

Rock typically goes one of a few ways: either heavy control, disruption based aggro, or mid-range beats with a good amount of answers. Typically the middle-road is taken, as it takes on the very essence of Rock: being good against many things, but not overwhelmingly amazing against any particular archetype.

3. Evolution

Rock has changed as each passing block adds more card to the deck. As time passed from Urza’s block onward, changes didn’t occur rapidly to many lists. Many played the standby list of big fatties with discard and removal, all of which had very limited option until Invasion block hit. Invasion is probably the premiere influence in the evolution of modern Rock-based decks, and started turning Rock into the deck it’s known for post-2000. Invasion block focused on multicolour concoctions, and had been in production for years to showcase the similarities, strengths, and differences of the different colour schemes. This led to a very important evolution of the deck: the start, or the increase in the number of Rock decks running three colours. Pre-Apocalypse, Rock was primarily in Green-Black, with some people splashing for Swords to Plowshares. Apocalypse brought Pernicious Deed, Phyrexian Arena, Vindicate, Spiritmonger, and loads of other good stuff. The true Rock deck of the modern age was born.

Since then, sets have added cards here and there. Onslaught added Fetchlands for improved consistency, Fifth Dawn added Engineered Explosives and Eternal Witness (although EE was not used to its full potential until much later), Champions of Kamigawa added Top (again, not used until much later). Then came Ravnica, which added Loxodon Hierarch, and more importantly, Dark Confidant. Dark Confidant, and card draw in particular, gave the deck its ultimate strategy: use efficient answers, in combination with massive card advantage to overwhelm your opponent. Having more answers to fewer threats was paramount for the Rock deck. Later sets brought Tarmogoyf, Kitchen Finks, Maelstrom Pulse, Knight of the Reliquary and the use of utility lands, Thoughtseize, and other cards to name a few. The combination of powerful creatures at the cost of multiple colours/high cost, efficient removal and card advantage was finally hatched, creating Legacy Rock.

4. Card Choices

In Rock decks of modern day, many of the builds share similar cards. I’ll refer to the core cards used in a large percentage of Rock decks, followed by those used in some decks, but not all.

Creatures:

Tarmogoyf: The new staple creature of Legacy, Tarmogoyf provides a formidable beater early in the game and gets larger as Rock blows more crap up. An efficient creature is an auto-include in most aggro to midrange Rock decks.

Knight of the Reliquary: The new kid on the block, KotR is soon becoming a staple in Rock builds of all types, due to his ability to get bigger than most other creatures previously used in Rock, and for his land fetching capability. He prevents colour screw by tutoring for the lands you need and gets bigger by doing it. He can also find fetchlands, which can crack to find other lands, pumping himself up by 2. Some combat tricks used with him are: blocking, and before damage searching for lands to increase his P/T ratio; attacking then untapping after damage but before end of combat using Maze of Ith, which can also be tutored for by Knight; searching for specialty lands to hose the graveyard (Bojuka Bog), provide blockers (Nantucko Monastery), and provide recursion (Volrath’s Stronghold). All in all, Knight is proving his worth as a 5/5 to 10/10 and up creature for 3 mana.

Eternal Witness: Usually played in more controlling builds, Eternal Witness allows you to replay backbreaking spells over and over again. Most people running Aggro builds have dropped Witness in favour of faster answers. Coupled with Pernicious Deed blowing up for more than 3, Witness and Pernicious Deed can combo in loops, with Witness fetching Deed, playing Deed and blowing up for more than 3, and returning Witness with Volrath’s Stronghold.

Dark Confidant: Used in Rock builds with lower mana curves, Confidant provides serious card advantage that is used to crush your opponent. Although very fragile, he can also attack when you don’t have any other pressure on board. Coupled with Sensei’s Divining Top, Confidant can draw you cards while manipulating your library for minimal loss of life. Coupled with fetchlands, you rarely take huge damage from Confidant. He’s pretty much an auto-include in most builds today.

Stoneforge Mystic: Used in some Aggro builds, it allows you to fetch weapons tech to flesh out creature on creature battles. A very useful tool, but does have to be built around. The main pieces of equipment to use with Stoneforge Mystic are Umezawa’s Jitte, Sword of Light and Shadow, and Sword of Fire and Ice. In this deck, I think Jitte and SoLS are best, because Jitte is VERY good and can destroy opposing Jittes if need be, and SoLS allows recursion.

Loxodon Hierarch: Another creature used in slower builds, Hierach is a 4/4 beater than nets you life as a CiTP ability. Being able to regenerate your team can very, very crucial in certain times during certain games. Although deemed slow, he’s still an inclusion in many control builds to stay online late enough in the game to win.

Kitchen Finks: The quicker replacement for Loxodon is a 3/2 Persist that nets you 4 life total over its lifetime. It is used against other Aggro based strategies, as it provides you with two blockers and 4 life. It also combines very well with Deed, and gives you creatures after a Deed on 3 or more, and you get some life out of him too. Many rock builds play him in either the main or board, or both.

Tombstalker: Not as common as the other creatures listed, but a worthy inclusion in many builds needing a large beater with evasion. In some builds, he can come down very early to seal the game. In others, he beats for five when there’s nothing left to stop him after you’ve ground out your opponent. He’s not played very often due to the popularity of Dark confidant, and the possibility of blind revealing a Tombstalker and getting hit for 8 isn’t appealing to most players. When he is played, he’s played usually in control based builds, or those without Dark Confidant.

Qasali Pridemage: Used in tempo builds to combat the rising use of powerful artifacts and enchantments. It also gives all your singular attacks an extra boost, making your Goyf bigger than theirs. All in all, a very solid utility creatures, especially with recursion.

Doran, the Siege Tower: Although the mana cost isn’t the easiest to get on turn 3, Doran is a 5/5 beater for 3, which is great. He turns any walls you play (in Control builds) into 4/4 and 5/5’s, and lets your Birds attack for damage, and makes Goyf bigger. Many lists have dropped him for Knight of the Reliquary, as Doran’s 5/5 isn’t as good as a 10/10 down the road.

Nantuko Shade: Again, not another common choice now, but more relevant in the past. Nantucko swings for 5 on turn 3 if played on turn 2, and is a very efficient beater. As of late, he’s been outclassed by other creatures, and he does hog your mana base as you usually want to pump him up. Not a terrible choice in the slightest, but not as common as other creatures.

Shriekmaw: Again, not very common, but used in control builds usually coupled with recursion. It’s usually played for its Evoke cost and returned later in the game.

Lord of Extinction: Some play this in control builds. If this card had trample, it’d be epic. Unfortunately, it’s just a big dumb beater with no evasion. But, it’s very good after Deeding away the board, and then swinging in with impunity.

Spiritmonger: One of the main fatties used when Rock burst into its new era post-Apocalypse. Since then, cheaper creatures have made Spiritmonger largely irrelevant, but he still sees some play in older lists.

Spells:

Thoughtseize: Most Rock decks like to use hand disruption as card advantage, and Thoughtseize is the best of them all, allowing you to take any non-land card you want at a cost of two life. If a Rock deck is playing hand disruption, this is an auto-include.

Hymn to Tourach: Another piece of hand disruption that is too good not to play if you’re in hand disruption mode.
Gerrard’s Verdict: Usually played a supplement to Thoughtseize and Hymn, or played in place of Hymn if the deck has trouble getting double black on turn 2. It is somewhat worse because it allows your opponent to choose what they discard.

Duress: Usually played in conjunction with Thoughtseize to combat combo and control based strategies.

Inquisition of Kozilek: Played along with Thoughtseize, or as a replacement for Thoughtseize. As you have an upside for not losing life, you lose the ability to nab anything that costs 3 or more. Usually used as Thoughtseizes 5-6, or when on a budget.

Swords to Plowshares: One of the main reasons to splash white, removing any creature for an exchange of life for one white makes this an auto-include in every Rock deck I know. There’s no reason you can’t play 4.

Path to Exile: Usually played as Swords 5-8 in the main or board, Path exchanges creature removal for tempo advantage. It’s used in more agro builds where you don’t want to give your opponent life.

Vindicate: Permanent removal at its finest. For 1BW, kill any single permanent on the board. At 3 CMC, it usually dodges Counterbalance and can kill Jace, a land, any creature…anything. Most Rock decks play at least 2, if not 4.

Maelstrom Pulse: A Vindicate that doesn’t hit lands, but hits multiple non-land permanents. It’s very useful in all of Vindicate’s non-land destruction applications, with the added bonus of being able to kill one to however many things are on the board. Useful for killing tokens, planeswalkers, creatures, multiple enchantments and artifacts (Ghostly Prisons, Mox Diamonds). Also, it’s not usually the colour named against Rock by Iona (White), so it deals with Iona, too. Be careful of friendly fire, though. Usually used as Vindicate #5-6, or as a split.

Pernicious Deed: Blowing up the world X and under for X is good. Really good. Problem being is it kills your own stuff. It’s typically used in more control builds, as it kills your own stuff and is better with long game recursion engines. But, it clears away tokens, and kills everything, A very solid board control card used in many builds.

Engineered Explosives: Allows you to pinpoint Deed the board on the CMC that’s giving you trouble. It’s usually a turn faster than Deed, but doesn’t blow up everything on the board. Usually used in more Aggro builds. Remember you can dodge Counterbalance by paying more in one colour (ex. Pay 2 Green and 1 Black for Sunburst 2, but CMC 3 against Counterbalance/Spell Snare).

Phyrexian Arena: Card draw engine used in Rock builds with higher mana curves. Not as fast as Dark Confidant, but the life loss can be much less, and harder to remove. Use extensively before Dark Confidant, it’s now much less common due to sheer speed.

Sensei’s Divining Top: Over the past couple of years, Top has been used to abuse Dark Confidant, and to make the deck more consistent when in topdeck mode. It allows you to dig 3 per turn, or 4 with Confidant, allowing you to find the cards you need when you need them. Usually an auto-include in most builds for consistency purposes.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant: Played in control builds or in Aggro builds as a 1-2 of, it allows you to create blockers and get attackers flying in the air against either Planeswalkers or the opposing player. It’s a bit slow, but doesn’t get hit by Deed and is hard to Explosives away. Once you go ultimate, you needn’t worry about opposing land destruction or Maelstrom Pulse friendly fire. Also helps against Moat, in case you needed any, but usually puts 10/10 KotR’s into flying mode.

Enlightened Tutor: E. Tutor allows you to run a toolbox sideboard of enchantments, with a little bit of everything for the matchup you need. Most run 1 Enlightened in the main, along with 3 in the board, along with 6-10 tutor targets. It allows some versatility in your answers to certain threats, and makes your opponent constantly guess at what other tricks you have up your sleeve. Some notable inclusions to be used in the tutorboard are: Dueling Grounds, Pernicious Deed, Oblivion Ring, Ghostly Prison, Engineered Plague, Engineered Explosives, Choke, Rule of Law, and others.

Ghastly Demise: Another option in addition to Swords/Path. Most of the time, this will be just as good, but it doesn’t target black creatures, on the other hand, the opponent doesn’t a get a cookie for their creature.

Mana sources/accelerants:

Noble Hierarch: Doesn’t tap for black, but pumps your creatures, provides a blocker, and overall puts you ahead by one in mana. Basically, the best mana accelerant in most midrange builds.

Mox Diamond: Used in many tempo rock Builds, Mox Diamond pitches a land to pump Knight and gives you some mana. Some don’t like it due to mana instability (it’s easily killed, plus you have to pitch lands you can’t get back). In decks concerned about tempo, this isn’t an issue, and allows for many turn 2 plays on turn 1. Tied with Noble in terms of mana acceleration and overall usefulness.

Birds of Paradise: Used in control builds, usually alongside Doran. Produces all colours and blocks, but doesn’t do much else. Easily dies to Deed and EE’s like all mana acceleration.

Wall of Roots: Usually played with Doran, proves a good block against Aggro until you can get up and running.

Wall of Blossoms: Not really a mana producer, more of an accelerant. Played commonly with Doran, and help you fight Aggro and gives you some card advantage.

Sakura Tribe Elder: Another control Element, it allows you to block and sacrifice before damage, allowing you to search out basic lands and chump a dude for a turn.

Veteran Explorer: Gives both you and your opponent an advantage, but many Legacy decks play few or no basics. Used in Control Rock builds with many basics, and where you benefit from the acceleration more than they do. Not terribly common.

Land choices/Numbers:

This will really depend on whether or not you play mana accelerants, which ones you play, and if you play Knight of the Reliquary.

If playing Knight of the Reliquary, as you probably should be, it gives you access to many specialty lands as well as a large creature. You should be playing 7-9 Fetchlands with Knight of the Reliquary. They allow you to fetch for basics is you need to more often, and allow you to get the land you want. They also pump Knight. Total land number is usually in the neighbourhood of 20-23, with most people opting for about 22 with mana sources (either Noble Hierarch or Mox Diamond).

For number of dual lands, it depends how consistent vs. how susceptible to Wasteland you want to be. Truffle Shuffle plays 0 Basic lands and all Duals, but is consistent as it gets in terms of lands. Most Rock decks now play between 3-8 basics, with the average being 3-5. I personally like 4 or 5, since it makes me less vulnerable to colour screw by opposing Wastelands. Most people playing Wasteland in their Rock deck tend to play fewer basics themselves, however. This is really just a personal choice, and what you feel comfortable playing with. In terms of number of Duals, it can range from between 6 to 10, on average. Usually, 4 Scrublands, 4 Bayou, and 1 Savannah are played (depending on the colour ratios, as well), or 4 Bayou, 3 Scrubland, 1 Savannah, etc. I think it’s necessary to play the 1-of Savannah if your main focus isn’t GW because many times you’ll need an extra green to put down more Goyfs, and the extra white to Plow more. Many times however you’ll be going for the black duals, but at times, Savannah is a real life-saver.

Specialty

So we’ve got approximately 8 fetches, 4 Basics, and 8 duals. We’ve got two slots left! If you’re playing Wasteland, you’ll probably have 2-3 Basics with 1-2 slots leftover. This allows us to get to the goodies that the searching ability of Knight grants us access to.

Volrath’s Stronghold: Useful in the fact it allows for long game recursion, and lets you play dead creature over and over. Very useful with Evoke or Sacrifice effect creatures, such as Qasali Pridemage, Shriekmaw, Kitchen Finks recursion, allows Deed loops with Eternal Witness and blowing Deed on 3+, etc. A very useful utility land that should be considered for all decks running KotR that aren’t straight up aggro.

Horizon Canopy: A painland Savannah with the ability to sac to draw cards. Used in New Horizons fame, Canopy gives you card advantage and Knight gets pumped. A decent card to say the least, but many lists have dropped the numbers to 1-2, or none at all.

Nantuko Monastery: In most games, you’ll have Threshold after a few turns. The point? You can have a tutorable 4/4 first striker that can be searched out with knight. 4/4 is nothing to sneeze at, nevermind first strike. A very good offensive and defensive card, many mid-range builds play it as a one of.

Wasteland: I’m assuming you haven’t included it in your 22 lands, so if you have, nevermind. Adding even two Wastelands just for tutoring can be excellent. Mainly, the 4-of Wasteland plan is designed for screwing your opponent over, but can also be done more efficiently by searching them out every turn with Knight, thereby pumping him as well. A very good card, but can lead to some colour screw on your behalf.

Bojuka Bog: With all the graveyards running around, it’s good to get rid of them. Nothing’s more fun than an opposing Knight running into yours, but you block and search for Bog. Win! Also helps against Dredge, Vengevine, Loam, Lands, etc. A very useful card to have around.

Karakas: The tutorable answer to Emrakul or Iona. Allows you to bounce them back to their hand, and lets you keep chugging away. It deserves a slot in either the side or main, unless you expect to see zero Reanimator/Dredge/Retainer Survival/Sneak Attack.

Maze of Ith: Maze is great because it untaps large creatures (ex. Iona) attack you, but you can also untap your own attackers to save them as blockers after they’re dealt damage. Its use significantly improves with the use of Dueling Grounds in the board. All in all, very solid.

Knight of the Reliquary Combat Tricks

Remember your Knight combat tricks: Block, then search for a land (usually a fetch, crack it for another land to pump by 2) before damage is dealt, so you can pump your Knight. Also, if you have Maze of Ith in play, you can attack, and then untap it during the “End of Combat” phase, after damage has been dealt, leaving you with a nice blocker. As well, if you don’t need to crack fetchlands, leave them in play uncracked when you attack. Most opponents may not see the fact you’ve got the ability to pump on demand as they’re too busy making decisions. Then, when he blocks with a slightly larger creature or multiple creatures, crack fetchlands to pump and possibly keep Knight alive.

Overall, you should have 22-23 Lands, and possibly 3-4 Mana accelerants. Mana acceleration is good because you want to play your backbreaking spells and your answers as early as you can. You might stall for a turn playing an accelerant, but it puts you ahead the next turn. Turn 1 Hymn is good, as is a turn 2 Vindicate. Which mana source depends on your play style. Mox Diamond is more aggro and pumps your Knight, but you lose actual lands for more explosive turn 1 plays. Noble Hierarch gives your creatures exalted, and you don’t lose actual lands. Problem is it doesn’t produce black. There are benefits and shortcomings of each choice: Weight them against your particular build to see which is right for you.

5. Basic Strategy

Rock has a few main strategies it uses to win and to interact (or not) with opponents.

Discard:

Discard provides card advantage by getting rid of stuff before it hits the table. It’s very useful for getting a peek at what your opponent it actually playing, and allows you to map out their plays for the next couple of turns. Most aggro builds run a suite of discard, as it allows you to get an early up on your opponent, and gives you game against combo. As the game progresses into the late game, discard can becomes less relevant. For that reason, many Control-Rock lists don’t run discard at all.

Removal/board control:

If and when something does hit the board, Rock packs a powerful removal suite in either pinpointed destruction or mass sweepers. This allows Rock to handle most things that the opponent can throw at us, from Enchantments to Planeswalkers to creatures. Rock is particularly good out either outclassing or straight up destroying opposing creatures. When the number of creatures becomes too great, this is where Rock can have some trouble.

Card Advantage:

Most Rock decks play some form of card advantage or manipulation to allow them to play more responses than you have threats. This is usually in the form of Dark Confidant, sweeper effects (virtual card advantage) or Phyrexian Arena. Clearing away multiple threats allows you to get the most out of your spells, and can put you ahead of your opponent very quickly. Most, if not all, Rock decks play some form of card advantage, either through drawing extra cards or blowing crap up. You can gain huge card advantage with little recourse using Dark Confidant and Sensei’s Divining Top to manipulate your draws to lose the least amount of life possible, while still maintaining an advantage over your opponent.

Fatties:

Rock plays a suite of beefy creatures that usually roll over your opponent’s creatures, or are hard to remove, or have an ability attached. Your creatures outclass your opponents most of the time, making your opponent go on the defensive against a player who has big attackers and answers to any creatures used to counter your creatures.

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In most games, with the basic strategies of removal, tempo advantage (discard and destruction), along with large creatures, you should be able to take out most other strategies. Use discard to plow through their hand, while using Vindicate to deny them their mana. Mana acceleration will allow you to do this early on, and by turn 5-6, you should have a good grasp of the game. You’ll probably disrupted them enough and have creatures on board so you can start ending the game. Play tight against decks with sweepers (Landstill, heavy control) as you have very few threats and less recursion to deal with it.
Post board, shore up the strategy that works best against the deck you’re facing. If you need to go aggro to beat them, add in some discard to disrupt them early on. If you’re trying to go control, slow the game down to a crawl and play it your way. Use board control elements such as Rule of Law, Choke, and Pernicious Deed. There’s a little something for everybody with Rock: you get to remove creatures, cause people to discard their favourite cards, play with Tarmogoyf, and blow up more expensive cards than yours.

6. Aggro vs. Control

There is a large divide in the Rock community about which is better: Aggro builds of the Rock or Control builds? The answer is neither; both decks have advantages to their strategies and disadvantages.

Aggro will usually run a large suite of discard with less removal and more creatures to put your opponent on the defensive early. This strategy is very good against most decks, which can’t compete with some removal and discard backed up by creatures early on. Most games played with Aggro Rock don’t run out the clock as much as Control matches do, but are worse against decks that do just that. Aggro-Rock does very well even into the mid to late game, but after that, it has no real recursion engines to keep fighting once the initial onslaught has been fended off.

Control usually scraps the Discard plan and some creatures for more removal. Discard is deader late in the game, so Control focuses on staying alive in the early game using removal, then plays board control pieces and large creatures to seal the deal. Control usually plays a recursion engine for its dead creatures to bring them back for further use later on. Control Rock has a tough time winning against super-aggro, as it plays little early game disruption. If the game can go past turn 4-6, then Rock does usually grind out a win. The problem with playing a deck that goes to time in a large tournament is the stress of reporting, de-sideboarding, and the possibility of tying a game from an opponent purposefully running out the clock. Be wary of the stress and play mistakes that come with going to time in an 8-hour tournament. Four rounds aren’t bad, doing eight is horrendous.

Mid-range is a mix of the two: usually playing more board control than Aggro, but more creatures and discard than Control. Most competitive Rock decks nowadays are midrange, and do well over the course of the entire game, but do suffer slightly in the early and very late games. It’s best to weight the advantages and disadvantages of playing any one of the major types in your particular metagame.

Sideboard choices really depend on your build, as it’s really just a BGW removal + fatties deck. It’s highly customizable, as you can see from the decklists. I’ll go over the major archetypes, and what cards we can use to deal with broad strategies. I’ll cover some narrow use cards as well, but ideally cards in your sideboard cover multiple matchups so you have as much coverage of the metagame as possible.

Creature based Aggro: Tribal, Zoo, Burn, Dredge

Most of the above listed decks play large amounts of creatures that swing many at a time. Mass removal is always a good choice, but with aggro, you don’t always have the time. So, you can shut off their ground attacks, destroy all their creatures, or allow fewer creatures to attack at once. With burn, you need to stop them from burning you, or gain enough life to withstand their direct damage.

Ghostly Prison: Makes all their creatures cost more to attack you. A very solid card against decks with mana creatures and light manabases. After ripping apart their hand and popping some of their lands, Ghostly Prison becomes an effective counter to tokens of any kind, Elf swarms, Goblins, and Merfolk. Doesn’t apply for attacking Elspeth, so be wary.

Engineered Plague: Makes tribal decks cry. This isn’t good against Merfolk anymore, they play 16 Lords. Unless you have 4 in play at the same time, it isn’t doing any good here. But, it’s VERY good against Goblins, Elves, Thopter tokens, Goblin tokens, Horror or Illusion against Dredge, etc.

Moat: You could play this as a sideboard card if you were running Elspeth, since you could boost creatures over your Moat. Goblins can’t deal with it, Dredge can’t deal with it, and Merfolk barely deals with it. Good, but you have to build around it.

Sphere of Law: Makes red decks cry, as most of their Burn now only does 1 or no damage to you. Siege Gang Commander is useless, Lackey doesn’t do damage, etc. Very solid, but at 4 CMC, it’s hard to pull off.

Rule of Law: Stops the flow of constant creatures and spells that usually smack you in the face.

Leyline of Sanctity: Shuts off Burn and Discard, period. A must-include nowadays.

Path to Exile: Targeted removal is good against decks with many lords. Allows you to also pinpoint your removal, allowing your creatures to block less intimidating targets, or gives you time to get creatures out.

Kitchen Finks: Blocks, persists, gives you life. Very good in creature on creature based matchups, especially Zoo.

Peacekeeper: Stops an opposing army, and your own, from attacking at the cost of tying up two mana. Allows you to stabilize and ready your troops before they can slaughter you with theirs. Although fragile, if you can keep it alive you’re usually set.

Dueling Grounds: Last but not least, the Grounds. Takes all decks that attack with multiple creatures and puts them at a standstill. Allows you to block with large fatties, and they can only block with one guy. Pretty rough beats against Dredge, Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, Vengevine, Elves, Thopters, etc. I see this as a must-include nowadays. Side at least 2, if not 3-4.

Combo: ANT, TEPS, Dredge,etc.

To properly deal with combo based decks, you need to limit the spells they play in a turn to stop them from building a storm count, counter key spells, or use discard. Since we can’t counter anything, discard and spell-limitation is basically the only way to go.

Leyline of Sanctity: Prevents you from being targeted with the Combo player’s discard and their Storm Spells. Very useful as it buys you time to play your own discard and threats before they find answers. To me, this card is an absolute must. Gives you a turn 0 answer before they can combo off.

Extirpate: Allows you to break Ill-Gotten Gains loops if key pieces are in the graveyard already.

Engineered Explosives: Destroys tokens created from Empty the Warrens.

Ethersworn Cannonist: Limits the number of spells they can play, limiting their storm count. A very popular choice as of late.

Thorn of Amethyst: Thorn makes every non-creature spell cost one more. Most effective if played turn 1 or 2, so here, having Mox Diamond is advantageous. Watch out for your own stuff costing more, though. This throws off the Storm player because it can mix up their counting, causing a failed combo loop (resulting in wasted cards and time), or in just them taking longer to combo off to get enough mana to do so. A very popular choice of creature based decks to fight Storm based combo.

Aven Mindcensor: Prevents them from using their tutors and fetchlands effectively. Another popular choice against Survival based decks. Fragile, but also has flash.

Pithing Needle: Prevents the use of Goblin Charbelcher, and other activated abilities many combo decks play.

Rule of Law: Same thing as Cannonist, limit their spells to slow their search of answers and to prevent them from building Storm.

Duress: Another key card in this matchup. Taking away their search abilities for answers allows you to keep other answers online, and stalls them from pulling off their combo. I suggest running at approximately 12 pieces of discard, along with another piece of hate (Leyline of Sanctity) to give yourself a better chance.

Runed Halo: Usually naming Tendrils is the way to go, or goblin Charbelcher. It’s an easily castable spell so long as you can actually get it down before they combo.

Chalice of the Void: Allows the countering of key bounce spells, mana acceleration, tutors, etc. Chalice on 2 shuts off their tutors (Infernal tutor and Burning Wish) and Cabal Ritual; 1 shuts off Brainstorm, Ponder, Chain of Vapour, Duress, Orim’s Chant, Silence, Xantid Swarm, Dark Ritual, etc. ; Chalice at 0 shuts off Lotus Petal, Lion’s Eye diamond and Chrome Mox. Remember though: Storm counts spells cast, not resolved. They can still run 0 drops through a Chalice at 0, having them all get countered but still building up Storm. If on the play, Chalice at 0 followed by Duress/Thoughtseize is good, but Chalice at 1 stops a lot of their spells. I prefer to Chalice at 1, as it stops their search and bounce, and really slows them down.

Gaddock Teeg: Stops them from playing Ad Nauseum and Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warren, key components in getting the combo off. Mind you, he’s easily killed.

Leyline of the Void: Nullifies the possibility of Ill-Gotten Gains Loop while on the board, and decimates Dredge decks so long as it stays on board. More relevant in the grave-based matchups (Lands, Aggro Loam, Dredge, etc.)

Graveyard Based Strategies: Dredge, Lands, Life from the Loam, Vengevine, Reanimator, New Horizons

These strategies utilize the graveyard to their advantage, so get rid of it.

Leyline of the Void: Stops them from having a graveyard, and comes into play on turn 0. Try not to keep a crap hand containing only Leyline as its good card. All in all, a very solid card and if played, play 4 in the board to increase your chances of opening with one on turn 0. Susceptible to counterhate via Grip, Trygon Predator, Nature’s Claim, etc.

Extirpate: Targeted graveyard removal. Get rid of their Life from the Loam, Vengevine, Iona, Wasteland, or whatever you feel like. It’s uncounterable except for a Counterbalance reveal trigger, so be wary. I think this is the best removal right now due to its ability to get rid of Vengevine and not be countered. Always do so in response to the return trigger.

Planar Void: A turn 1 answer to graveyard strategies, but basically means your Tarmogoyfs amd KotRs are useless. I’m not a huge fan, but if you need more cheap answers to totally shut out their strategy in a grave-based meta, it’s VERY good.

Wheel of Sun and Moon: Doesn’t let stuff get put in their graveyard for them to use. Somewhat useful for Dredge and the like, and also good against opposing Knight of the Reliquary. Be careful though, it allows them to reuse everything, though. If they run a tutor-based deck, this might not be the best idea.

Tormod's Crypt: Not as good as it used to be before Vengevine. Most of the time you’ll be forced to crack it for the bare minimum just to keep yourself alive. Again, another solid card against Dredge, but not so much against Veggies.

Relic of Progenitus: Better against slower graveyard strategies, but the same problems as Crypt, with a cantrip attached.

Morningtide: Removes all graveyards, including yours. A kick in the pants to you, but a possible choice if it’s all you have.

Bojuka Bog: Easily fetched with Knight of the Reliquary, Bog becomes an instant speed Crypt out of nowhere. Can be done in response to cycling trigger on a fetchland, Vengevine return to play trigger, or on a Dread Return so they can’t get Iona out.

The key here is to either out aggro the control deck, and put them in a bad position and make them make bad decisions (ie. Using sweepers on one creature) or do better than them at control. Early discard hurts them very much, as does targeted removal.

Maelstrom Pulse: If you’re not packing Pulse in the main and need more targeted removal, Pulse is right for you. Takes out multiple Thopters, Planeswalkers, Stax pieces, and Enchantress pieces when not under the shroud umbrella.

Choke: Many control builds have blue in them, and being able to slow them down to a crawl is very good. Coupled with Land Destruction, Choke is a solid card against Merfolk (somewhat), Thopters, and Landstill. It makes it hard for Landstill to Deed you out or cast huge spells, and when they do, they’re tapped down. Thopters can’t make more than one round of tokens, and it doesn’t allow them to do anything else. Choke is particularly good when combined with Suppression Field, Ghostly Prison, or any other tax on their manabase (Magus of the Tabernacle, Tabernacle itself, etc.)

Diabolic edict: Allows you to get rid of a resolved Progenitus or Emrakul, and usually Iona, as most players name White against Rock. A useful card in many matchups.

Perish: Even though it kills your stuff, it helps you deal with Vengevine decks and can kill a resolved Progenitus.

Pernicious Deed: The end-all-be-all against control. It’s devastating against Enchantress, Stax, Thopters and many control variants. It’s hard to Counterbalance against, and blows up everything. You might lose a few creatures, but Stax loses Crucibles, Smokestacks, Ghostly Prisons, Trinisphere, Chalices, etc. Thopters loses Thopter combo and Counterbalance lock, along with Ensnaring Bridges, Crucible, Back to Basics, etc. It’s a hard counter to Enchantress, but be wary of Replenish bringing it all back. Try to also remove their graveyard with Bog or Relic as well, or makes them discard Replenish.

Duress: Comes up again as it’s very good against a Control matchup. If you can mash up their hand before they can lay big threats or hard counters, you can have the game in your grasp by playing threats soon afterwards. You can take out a Trinisphere before it gets played, the shroud giving Enchantress enchantment, and other discard on the part of the Rock player.

Sacred Ground: Against decks that pound your manabase. If there’s a lot of Stax, New Horizons, Team America and their ilk, Sacred Ground is a very good counter.

Leyline of Sanctity: Protects you against many control decks counter cards, such as other discard, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and Words of War. It’s a hard threat for many decks to answer early on, so it buys you time, and possibly even permanents to sacrifice to Smokestack.

Leyline of the Void: Even though these are control matchups, many do so well because of playing out of the graveyard. Stax loses its edge with no land recursion, Enchantress can’t replenish, Thopters can’t Academy Ruins + EE lock you or bring back broken combo pieces/combo off at all, and most Rock decks like their graveyard for either recursion or pump.

Vampire Hexmage: If you had a meta with a large amount of Planeswalkers floating around, this is a good card. Kills Jace and Elspeth, the two main planeswalkers you’ll see in Legacy, and is a decent creature at a 2/1 First strike for BB.

Kitchen Finks: Creatures with recursion use up the control elements control decks have to play. Recurring creatures of any kind, be it Kitchen Finks, Nether Spirit, Bloodghast, etc. all have game against these types of decks unless they’re RFG’d by Swords. Multiple sacrifices to Smokestack makes Stax players (including myself) cry, and it gives you breathing space against their eventual threats.

Gaddock Teeg: Takes Control to town. They can’t play many Stax pieces, EE, relevant Planeswalker, Replenish, hard core Enchantments (Humility/Moat), and even Leyline not on Turn 0 (which does tend to happen). Especially good since most decks run EE as removal for your threats, and this really makes this disadvantageous to them.

Kataki, War's Wage: Absolutely trounces Stax, but most people are playing it against Affinity. Against those decks, it's an absolute bomb. Other prefer Pernicious Deed against those decks, but this comes out a turn earlier.

sdematt

12-02-2010, 12:28 PM

9. Matchup Analysis

Goblins

Goblins can be a bit of a tough matchup. Goblins is a fast, aggressive deck that gets off the line quickly. Answering a Turn 1 Lackey is key, either with removal or a blocker. You’re basically trying to stabilize and either rip apart their hard and put them into topdeck mode or blow up the stuff they play. Not letting Lackey/Instigator hit you is key here if you can; try to save your removal for dangerous creatures such as this. If you can get enough fat on board, swing in conservatively if you’re outnumbered. Watch for them screwing your manabase: fetch basics so you don’t get Wastelanded out. Goblin Ringleader and Siege Gang Commander are their primary card advantage engines, and allow them to recover from sweepers very easily. When possible, take Ringleader/Siege Gang with Thoughtseize. It saves you a lot of hassle down the road. Doran is very good in this matchup if you play him, Piledriver suddenly doesn’t look so good. There are many builds: R, RB, RG, RBG, etc. They all function the same way in a basic sense: Play lots of Goblins, turn them sideways.

In against Goblins: More sweepers and creature removal, dueling Grounds/E. Plague, possibly Leyline of Sanctity as it prevents them from Siege-Ganging you out under a Dueling Grounds.

In against you: Most likely gravehate and artifact/Enchantment removal.

Out against Goblins: Keep your discard in, but side out Duress if you’re playing it main. Side out more expensive removal as you may be cut off of mana due to their denial plan.

Like Goblins in that they play a bunch of creature that turn sideways, but they also play some removal along with a bunch of burn. The key here is killing their threats and putting out bigger ones before they kill you. Thoughtseize isn’t a bad card here; just make sure you’re taking something that will cost you more than 2 life over the course of the game (which is pretty such everything). Lay out fatties when they’re out of Burn range. Don’t be afraid of playing Dark Confidant here. Try and squeeze as much card advantage out of him as you can before he dies. Zoo is also a land light deck: focusing on killing lands can do you some good. Long story short: Take the burn out of their hand, blow up their lands, play bigger creatures and swing in. Kitchen Finks is EXCELLENT in this matchup, as is fetching for basics against Price of Progess.

In against Zoo: Leyline of Sanctity, Pulse of the Fields, Kitchen Finks, Circle of Protection: Red, Dueling Grounds, Pernicious Deed.

Oh look, another aggro based matchup: with counters! Basically very similar to Goblins matchup, except they’re running less mana denial and counterspells! Hooray! Just kidding. This is a hard matchup depending on what they’re running. The black version is bad because it runs Perish in the board. They also run so many Lords, everything gets so big. Don’t get caught offguard by Cursecatchers, and save your Plows for relevant Lords (Coralhelm, Reejerey) or Mutavaults. Try to stabilize by blowing crap up and swinging in big. Resolving Confidant, especially with Top, is key here. You need card advantage to help you get there against so many threats. Don’t play around Counterspells: they’re inevitable. Mind you, don’t make a backbreaking play with no Daze mana open unless absolutely necessary. Don’t walk into easy counters, but don’t hold back to the point where you lose tempo by just sitting there to get to 5 mana so you can Vindicate even if he has Spell Pierce. Your creatures outclass his most of the time, so take out their Lords and hopefully swing in. Post board, Dueling Grounds is key. You can block everything except Coralhelm Commander, and you’re bigger than he is. If Dueling Grounds sticks, you should be good.

In game 1, rip apart his hand as best you can. Don’t be afraid to drop Dark Confidant for some card advantage. Lay out beats as early as possibly, it’s a race. Don’t be afraid to Swords your own creatures to stay in the game. Most of your stuff is useless here, which makes for a bad game 1. Game 2, bring in life-gain and Leylines. If you can drop Leyline, they basically have no answer except Sulphuric Vortex and their few creatures, which you can easily blow up/remove.

In against Burn: Life gain of any kind, Leyline of Sanctity.

In against you: Grave-hate.

Out against Burn: Path to Exile, a few Confidants (if you need room), Thoughtseize (replace with Duress), Maelstrom Pulse, a few Vindicates, Pernicious Deed.

Overall: Very unfavourable preboard, favourable to very favourable postboard.

Dredge

Dredge is a very difficult matchup, but can be won game 1. Keep early pressure on, and use targeted discard. Random discard is good for Dredge, so try not to use it. Maelstrom Pulse is good at blowing up tokens, as are Deed and EE. Try to keep the Dredge player off 3 creatures for the Dread Return; Swords/Remove Narcomoebas and other creatures when possibly. Use Knight to tutor Bojuka Bog or Karakas for an impending Iona. Lay beats down, and hope they don’t go off too quickly.

Out against Dredge: Swords to Plowshares, Hymn to Tourach/Gerrard’s Verdict, some Vindicates (keep a few), Discard (if on the draw).

Overall: Unfavourable to very unfavourable preboard, favourable to very favourable postboard.

ANT, TEPS, and other Tendrils based combo

Depending on the build, most of these decks basically build a storm count by playing mana artifacts for free, then casting Ad Nauseum to draw a ton of card to kill you with either an Ill-Gotten gains Loop, Empty the Warrens for tokens, or Tendrils of Agony. I suggest reading an article by Max McCall on Starcitygames.com called “So you want to kill your opponent on Turn 1?” It’s an enlightening article about how much mana is need to do certain things, when to do things etc. I’m not going to explain it all here, but always makes sure their mana count is correct, and always call their bluff. Make them fully go through the combo, as many times it can fail due to poor counting. I’m not saying stall the clock and be an idiot, just make sure they’re got the mana and storm they say they do. Try to hit them in the early game with discard backed with threats early on. Sometimes you’ll get them, othertimes not. Focus using Vindicates and such on their lands, as their actual manabase is quite unstable, playing mana non-basics and playing fewer lands in general. In game 2, side in Leyline of Sanctity with maximal discard. Make them discard, then back it up with threats to put them on a clock. It’s a race between who has answers and who doesn’t. If he can’t find his answer to your answer, he loses. If not, you lose. Try to keep a singular white open if you have large creatures in play: He may combo off, but in response you can Swords your creature to gain enough life to possibly survive the ordeal. It doesn’t always work, but at times it can be worth a shot. Make sure all the Storm copies are on the stack before you play your spell, you don’t want to add to the Storm.

In against ANT: Leyline of Sanctity, Duress, Runed Halo, Leyline of the Void, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, EE (for ETW tokens).

In against you: Usually a Burning Wish board.

Out against ANT: Path to Exile, Pernicious Deed, some StP, a few Vindicate, etc.

Overall: Very unfavourable preboard, slightly unfavourable to even postboard.

Dreadstill

Dreadstill usually packs an impressive array of Standstill, Stifles, Dreadnought, Factories and heavy countermagic. As of late, Spell Pierce is now Spell snare with all the Survival running around, and that helps you greatly. Phyrexian Dreadnought relies on 4-7 Soft counters (Daze, Spell Pierce/Spell Snare) and 4-8 Hard Counters (Force of Will and Spell Snare) to counter key spells, as well as its counterbalance-Top engine. Luckily for us, we’re playing a few more three drops than they’d like. The key here is blow up their Counterbalance if you ever want to get a Swords/Path through. It’s never getting through a good Dreadstill player. Play aggressively in this matchup, as they’re trying to lay down a fast Dreadnought: they can’t play the late-game as well as we can. Drop down an EE or a Deed when possibly. Keep your Vindicates and such for Dreadnought. Once he runs out one or two and you deal with them, he’s basically done. Stay on your toes, hit them early with discard, and blow their crap up. Don’t be afraid to crack Standstill as soon as possible and hopefully at the end of their turn before they discard. This will force them to discard back down to 7 after having drawn three wonderful cards. This shouldn’t be a terrible matchup so long as you keep Counterbalance off the table and keep the pressure on.

In against Dreadstill: Path to Exile, Deed, EE, Diabolic Edict, Maze of Ith.

In against you: Perish, grave-hate, possibly Peacekeeper.

Out against Dreadstill: Bits and pieces here and there to fit in as much removal as possible.

Enchantress relies on early mana acceleration to play many enchantments, that eventually end up having shroud. It stalls the game using Elephant Grass and other creature control elements. It amasses huge card advantage through the use of Enchantresses Presence and Argothian Enchantress. It wins by using either Sigil of the Empty Throne or Words of War. It plays an enchantment with multiple Enchantress effects on board, and decides to skip the drawing to burn you for each card not drawn, which usually kills you. The key to this matchup is attacking their early manabase, and their hand early. Get around their shroud by laying down Deed and EE. Try to attack as much as possibly before Elephant Grass starts to lock you out. Continually pick at their hand and get rid of Replenish and Sterling Grove, and swing in as much as you can. Eventually you’ll get there. Karmic Justice can be a beating: make sure you destroy it before blowing Deed or something.

In against Enchantress: EE, Deed, Leyline of Sanctity, Duress, Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, etc.

In against you: More creature control, Karmic Justice, some gravehate as well.

Out against Enchantress: Targeted creature removal.

Overall: Even to slightly unfavourable preboard, even to slightly favourable postboard.

Reanimator

With the unbanning of Mystical Tutor a possibility, I better talk about Reanimator. With or without Mystical tutor, it’s still a good deck. Reanimator plays Entomb with Reanimation effects (Reanimate, Exhume) backed with discard and counterspells. Usually, they’ll either rawdog the early Entomb and try to go for a fast win, or they’ll go off whilst protected with discard and/or counterspells. Either way, at end of turn they’ll Entomb Iona/Inkwell Leviathan/Terastodon/Sphinx of the Steel Win and reanimate next turn. Be wary if they use Exhume: you choose to bring back something of your own as well. They key here is disrupting them early enough in the first game to take control. They play very few lands, and few if any basics, so discard backed with Wasteland/Vindicate is key. If you can put them off their lands they’ll have a bunch of trouble getting back online. If Iona does comes out, pray to hit Pulse or Diabolic Edict or Karakas, or have an online KotR. Iona is usually named on white and second most on black. I always suggest to my Reanimator opponent that Black is paramount, but they usually pick White just the same. After you side, bring in discard and massive amounts of gravehate.

Thopters is a Counterbalance-based control deck utilizing the Sword of the Meek/Thopter foundry Combo with various white and blue control cards including Humility, Moat, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Back to Basics, Crucible of Worlds, etc. It’s very much like old-style Landstill crossed with Counterbalance. Thopters plays 7-8 hard counters (Force of Will and Counterspell) along with Counterbalance, Enlightened Tutor, and Moat (it looks more and more like Vintage Keeper circa 1996). The main problem when playing against Thopters is they usually have a small tutor arsenal with Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds, Moat, Humility backed by the infamous Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Having that guy behind an Ensnaring Bridge or Moat, continually sculpting your draws while your creatures can’t attack him is quite annoying. The good thing? You play board destruction, and usually 4-6 anti-Planeswalker spells, not counting the fact you have creatures that attack. Thopters plays anywhere from 6-10 basic lands, so the Land denial plan is probably pretty bad. Early on, Thopters is susceptible to discard, so take Counterbalance, Jace, and Back to Basics when you can. Once Counterbalance lands, they’ll be looking to either fulfill Thopter combo or use Jace to lock you out. Here, blow up Counterbalance and go for Deed as much as possible. Deed levels their field almost as bad as Stax, but leaves Jace. When possible, either attack of Vindicate/Pulse Jace. With enough removal, hand disruption, and board sweep, you should end up victorious.

Goblin Charbelcher is an explosive combo deck that wins on turn 1 or 2 a good portion of the time. It uses mana accelerants and usually 1-2 lands to run out a Goblin Charbelcher, and activate it to kill you. Another way to combo out for them is by building a Storm count and using Empty the Warrens. Warrens is easier to pull off because you don’t have to bring in 20 tokens, even 8-12 are enough that early in the game. As a non-blue based deck, this makes your job very difficult. Game 1 unless you get extremely lucky with your discard and you back it up with early pressure and he draws nothing, you lose. The key here is games 2 and 3, where you side in defenses against tokens and Charbelcher. If you can deal with Belcher, and have ways to deal with token, you’re good.

In against you: I don’t think they side in anything terribly relevant.

Out against Belcher: Swords/Path, a few creatures.

Overall: Unfavourable pre-board, slightly unfavourable postboard.

Team America

Team America is a tempo deck utilizing Wasteland, Stifle, Sinkhole, Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. It plays very early manabase disruption by Stifling fetchlands and Wastelanding non-basics. Some versions still play Sinkhole, which is devastating against most decks. In this match, fetch for basics and play out your mana accelerants as soon as possible. You’re going to lose many lands in this matchup: this is where having 23 lands comes in handy. Mind you, Team America is a threat-light deck with usually 8-9 threats. Here, you have to play control. You have a much better long game than they do, as you have much better removal and possible recursion. Wasteland away their black sources (if possible) and keep them on their toes. Lay out as many threats as you can, as they don’t have a ton of answers except creatures to resolved threats. Their counterspell base is alright, with 4 Force of Will, Dazes and Spell Pierces. Don’t play too heavily around soft-counters; this isn’t a matchup where you can lollygag around waiting to see if they have the counter. This deck is good against Rock because of the fact it disrupts our manabase early on, which is the key. If you can draw the game out to the late game, however, you should win.

In against Team America: Path, EE, Leyline of Sanctity (not necessary, but helpful), Pithing Needle.

White Stax will try to use its multiple lockpieces to slowly turn the gamestate into a quagmire of upkeep effects and cost alterations/negations. White Stax is Prison at its finest: Good, but highly inconsistent. Stax loads up the board with permanents to drag you down to a point where you can’t play anything, then slowly kills you. You easily defend against this by heavily disrupting them in the early game when they’re most vulnerable. Stax can’t function to its full potential without Crucible of Worlds: it sacs lands to Crucible to outrace you on Smokestack, it uses Armageddon to the point of being absurdly lopsided, and it used Wastelock to take you out of the game. But, Stax itself is vulnerable to early Wastelands. Stax’s lowest CMC is 3, not considering Chalice of the Void. Wastelanding their first turn Ancient Tomb is brutal, as they usually can’t follow it up immediately. As well, the fact you have targeted permanent removal means even if they play an awesome lockpiece, like Smokestack or Crucible of Worlds, you can easily remove it without hesitation. Pernicious Deed is the bane of their existence here. An active Deed onboard with mana open literally spells the end of the game for Stax unless they already have no permanents on board. Remember to pay Tabernacle upkeep effects, or to be sneaky with an active Smokestack on board, stack the triggers to sac to Smokestack first, then pay for Tabernacle effects. All in all, blow stuff up; disrupt early, swing in often. Remember: Ghostly Prison doesn’t apply to Planeswalkers.

Overall: Slightly favourable for you preboard, slightly favourable to favourable postboard, depending on how many Deeds you play.

CounterTop Bant/ NO Bant

Counter-Top Bant uses the Counter-Top engine combined with efficient creatures to kill you with big creatures, with the option of adding in Natural Order/Progenitus package. I’m considering these decks one of and the same, as they are pretty much the same: Most play White, Green, and Blue, most play Natural Order and Progenitus. Some play Dark Confidant and Engineered Explosives, some don’t. I’m going to assume we’re facing Bant colours with Countertop and Natural Order, playing some creature base of Rhox War Monk, Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, etc. Their game plan is to hopefully lock you out with Counter-Top, and then unleash hell by bringing in a Progenitus to quickly end the game, using Natural Order on one of their small dudes (Noble or Dryad Arbor). They lack a huge amount of actual counterpower, usually playing 4 Force of Will, some Dazes, and possibly Spell Snares/Pierces, but not as likely. You don’t have a huge counterwall to go through, but you have CounterTop backed with Swords and Counters, which against is tricky. Here, disrupt early on as much as possible. Attack their hand and manabase. If they can get up to 4 mana with a creature online, they can end the game two turns afterwards. Be aggressive, and blow up Counterbalance when you can. Try to keep their creatures off the tablet to prevent them from casting Natural Order. They have limited card draw (Top and Brainstorm), so once you get the initial few plays out of the way, you should be home free. It’s not an easy matchup, as it has a wide variety of answers, but play aggressively and you should be fine. If you see Jace, attack him or Vindicate him as soon as possible.

In against NO Bant: Path, Deathmark (if many creatures), Diabolic Edict, Gaddock Teeg, Choke, Perish, Pithing Needle. All in all, there’s not much you should put in here: All of you stuff is good against them. A few tweaks for Perish/Edict against Progenitus is the main thing here.

Landstill is the premiere control deck in Legacy. It plays zero creatures with the exception of Manlands, and uses Pernicious Deed and Jace, The Mind Sculptor backed with a heavy counter package to wipe the board and ride Jace to victory. Landstill is literally removal, counters, and bombs. Landstill also absolutely dies to very fast aggro. Against Landstill, you can’t play the control game: they’re too good at it. Here, you need to disrupt them early on using Hymn and Thoughtseize, and lay down early threats. Don’t overextend into Deed, but don’t lay back and wait for them to remove their stuff. They have lots of Counters, so try to bait what you can and just throw it out there when you can’t. Because you have so much early disruption, it can be hard for them to get a handle on the game if you’ve got an online confidant and have dealt heavy blows to their hand on turn 1-3. Cards to take with targeted discard are removal and Jace. Let them have their counters unless you really need stuff to go through. Landstill doesn’t have a draw engine like it used to with Fact or Fiction, it relies on Jace and Brainstorm to get there, which isn’t enough past the initial opening hand. You should be able to play the Aggro plan and win against Landstill. Landstill comes in a few flavours: UWBG for Deed and Swords, UBGR for Deed and Firespout; they can play a Wishboard with Cunning Wish, or have no Wishboard at all.

In against Landstill: Hand disruption, Extirpate, Leyline of the Void, Choke, Pithing Needle.

In against you: Path, Swords, Firespout, Extirpate, Leyline of the Void, the Abyss (possibly), Deed, EE.

New Horizons is one of the most manabase destructive decks next to Team America. It has Wastelands, Stifles, and Crucible of Worlds for late game Waste-lock. Some lists have dropped Crucible to the board or have dropped it entirely, but it still can be a scary deck to face: Knights of the Reliquary, Terravore, and Tarmogoyf are their only threats. They play roughly 10-12 threats like you do, but they only play 6 cards of removal (2 EE, 4 Swords). This is bad for them since the common number they’ll want to EE on against Rock, 3, is bad for them. So, essentially they have 4 Swords and 2 cards of friendly fire. Fetch for basics and disrupt them early on. They only play Force and Daze ass counters, as their a tempo build. So, in reality, they have only 4 actual Counterspells, and 4 conditional kind-of counters. Doesn’t seem so hot considering everything we play blows their crap up. Rip apart their hand early on. Take Crucible if they play it, or their creatures. They have no recursion, so taking any of their creatures can be devastating to their plan. Be careful of Terravore. Even as a two-of, he can get way too large for you to handle. Keep some removal back for the eventual Terravore, or search for Maze of Ith. Don’t rely on your non-basics, however. Against it, fetch basics early and stabilize your manabase while trying to pick on them. Don’t worry if some stuff get countered early on; their low threat density means killing one gives you time to draw more removal. Lay out Confidant and try to ride him to victory with sheer card advantage. Don’t forget your Knight searching for Bog; Bog is a great addition against them. Hang in there, and you should be victorious.

In against New Horizons: Pernicious Deed, Path, Sacred Ground, Tormod’s Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, etc.

Out against New Horizons: One of those matchups where all your stuff is good, take out as little as possible to pack the most removal and disruption you can.

Overall: Even preboard, even to slightly favoured postboard.

Painter’s Servant-Grindstone

Painter-Grindstone can be played in many different shells: Mono Black Painter, Black White Painter (like Helm of the Void), Imperial Painter, and Control Painter/Next Level Painter to name a few. Many of these fall into other categories of play, but with the added combo. Control Painter usually plays Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Force, etc. It plays very much like a Counterbalance based control deck, and you should treat it as such. Get rid of Counterbalance, destroy their combo pieces when you can. Be wary that once they activate with both pieces online, even if you Path or Swords Painter, the activation still occurs. Your best bet here is to keep Deed on board until they get one piece online. If they play Painter first, Swords it. In total, they need 6 mana to pull off the combo: 3 to play the pieces, 3 to activate the Grindstone. Your best bet here is Krosan Grip, Pithing Needle, and Deed. Imperial Painter used Imperial Recruiter to fetch up Painter’s Servant, Magus of the Moon, or other red annoyances. It usually plays it as mono Red or Red/Blue, with mana Pyroblast/Hydroblast/REB/BEB in the main and board. With this, they have a lot of permanent destruction, possible counterpower, and Blood Moon effects to shut off your non-basics. Here, attack their hand as possibly and take away either combo pieces, enablers (Recruiter), or Moon effects. Fetch basics as early as possible, and lay out threats of any kind before they can combo. Put the pressure on and they’ll have to go defensive, putting them at a disadvantage. This matchup is a little harder due to the nature of the beat on this one.

Aluren is actually a matchup that exists, believe it or not. It’s rather slow though. It takes a 4-mana enchantment to combo off. Basically, they make you lose a bunch of life off of Cavern Harpy or Parasitic Strix, and keep bouncing each other and playing them for free at instant speed. They play 3 Cabal Therapy and 4 Force of Will as their forms of disruption. Here, attack their manabase and their hand. They don’t have much to take you apart with, and the combo can be fragile. If Aluren does get online, make sure they can actually combo that turn, as sometimes they cannot. If not, blow up Aluren as soon as possible. You should be able to out-disrupt them enough to swing the game in your favour and put them on the defense, making it a choice between playing Aluren or finding cards as blockers/creature kill. They can only side in a NO-Progenitus package against you and 1-2 additional pieces of discard. Volrath’s Stronghold is very strong if they can hold you off, so Waste it if you need to. You should be able to win this one.

Out against Aluren: Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, some Vindicate effects, Path (keep some Swords in: if timed well, you can break the combo), very slow cards (Elspeth, most anything 4+ CMC).

Overall: Even to slightly favourable for you preboard, even to slightly favourable for you postboard.

43 Lands

43 Lands is going to be a bit of a bad matchup for you. The fact they play little to discard effectively, coupled with recurring land destruction makes this a bit of an uphill climb. If going first, Thoughtseize away Exploration or Manabond. If given the choice, Manabond. Life from the Loam is their engine, but don’t make them discard it, that’s disadvantageous. If you can put up threats early and they stall out, all the better. As weird as it sounds, try to cut off their blue. They need blue for Intuition and to transmute Tolaria West. Deed is good here if you can get it online, but it can be very difficult. Vindicate away Ports and Tabernacles if you have the mana. If not, keep Dark Confidant and beater alive. Keeping Dark Confidant is key here: he can net you enough cards, and with those cards, lands, to keep you in the game. Fetch for basic lands, but it may not be enough, as they run Ghost Quarter as well. Mind you, Lands can also go nuts and puke out 10 lands on turn 2 against you, hopelessly locking you out. Know when a match is unwinnable. Post board, side in as much grave hate as you can, and hope for the best.

In against Lands: Graveyard hate of any and all description, Sacred Ground, Pithing Needle, Duress.

In against you: Mindslaver, the Tabernacle, Krosan Grip.

Out against Lands: Pernicious Deed, Swords to Plowshares/Path, Hymn to Tourach/Gerrard’s Verdict.

Aggro-Loam is pretty much on the same gameplan as you are: play disruption, kill some creatures, then grind the opponent out using big fatties. The problem is they have recurring Wasteland and card draw from Life from the Loam, as well as Seismic Assault. In this matchup, try to make them discard away Chalice of the Void, as it hurts much of your removal. Get rid of their Dark Confidant, and don’t let Countryside Crusher get too big. Attacking their manabase isn’t a good plan here. Stick to blowing their crap up. Life from the Loam isn’t as useful when Seismic Assault isn’t in play, so take advantage of that when you have the chance. An active Assault in the late game can kill you the turn it lands, so be wary. Hit early and often, and remove their creature as often as possibly. Your Knight wont be as big as their full-size Crushers and Terravores, and gravehate (except Leyline) can’t fight Crusher’s ability. Remove him as often as possible. Post board, hate out Life from the Loam and pack more discard.

In against Aggro-Loam: Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Pithing Needle, Path to Exile, Pernicious Deed.

In against you: Leyline of the Void, Krosan Grip.

Out against Aggro-Loam: Maelstrom Pulse, bits and pieces to pack in more removal.

Overall: Even preboard, slightly favourable postboard.

Rock – The Mirror Match

The Rock mirror match is more likely to happen now than any other time. I’ve never played a Rock mirror before a few weeks ago, but it very much comes down to who’s playing what style. An Aggro Rock build can sometimes trump Control, or sometimes the other way around. It comes down to who plays more disruption the fastest, and who can keep an attacking creature online the longest. Control builds running 4 Deeds and multiple Elspeths packed with recursion may stand more chance against those that explode on turns 2-4. The die roll is key in this game. Save your removal for their creatures, and try to rip them apart with your discard. It comes down to keeping your draw engine online, or removing theirs.

Who knows how long this will actually be relevant, considering the B/R update is tomorrow. But, in any case, onto the Elephant in the room. For months, Survival has been running rampant due to several reasons that aren’t going to be repeated here. Case in point: Survival is hard to hate out, is versatile with its builds and answers, but they all have a common weakness: Survival itself. You’re playing Rock. If they decide to spring Vengevines, Swords them. If they land Survival, blow it up. Use your discard early on to take key creatures or spells, such as Survival itself or Knight of the Reliquary/relevant creatures (NOT Vengevine). You have enough disruption and permanent removal early on to allow you to get a foot in the door. Build up a solid manabase including some basics, and play out threats. Dark Confidant is key in this matchup, as are Swords and Path preboard. Keep removing their creatures and removing their graveyard (Bojuka Bog). Remember to bog using Knight only after the last Vengevine trigger for returning them to play goes on the stack, otherwise they can play around you. Generally, your creatures are bigger than theirs, so remember to block as well. Deed is a very good card at removing all their regular creatures and other permanents; put it to good use. The key here is to disrupt early, remove from game often. It won’t be an easy match, believe me. Sometimes they get very good draws and can out aggro you. Remember: vary your hate, remove as you can, disrupt early.

Overall: Even to slightly unfavourable preboard, even to slightly favourable postboard.

Overall, Rock doesn’t have a 140% win ratio against any deck in the format; it’s actually quite the opposite. Rock has decent matchups or at least decent chances of winning against most decks in the format. With a good sideboard, you should be able to take Rock to most metagames and do reasonably well with it.

10. Records

Results can be found for the following tournaments. Most of the time, Rock is named: Junk, BWG Rock, Dark Horizons, or something like that.
If you happen to have any records I should know about, I’ll post them here.

*The links are a bit finicky, but if you copy and paste the whole thing into your browser, you're good to go*

sdematt

12-02-2010, 12:29 PM

saved

sdematt

12-02-2010, 12:37 PM

@ZeinVoncy: Post the list!

@ ZeinVoncy, regarding the inclusion of Doran, the Siege Tower:

You got your fingers slapped because of the fact you weren't running Knight of the Reliquary, and Doran was replacing Knight. I'm saying run both.

I agree with the fact that you could build around Doran: Wall of Omens/Blossoms/Roots would be excellent inclusions in that deck. I think we should brainstorm on that tangent. I agree 100% with Pridemage: he is another tool in the toolbox. But, at times, you don't need tools, you need brute force. We've got a crap ton of removal already, and again, Pridemage would be excellent here. You're 100% correct, I'm just trying the fat in place of Pridemage just to see where we can go with it.

I think Doran could be used in a Walls/Birds control setup with recursion, possibly even with Stoneforge Mystic. But, running him in a mid-range to aggro match doesn't seem terrible if coupled with the usual suspects: Tarmogoyf, KotR, and Dark Confidant. Plus, I love how he makes Goblin Pildedriver infinitely worse.

So I did have KotR, just not 4x of them. :-P Moving on, I ditched the equipment even after getting a Sword of Fire and Ice b/c I felt that they are just junk (no pun intended) in this version of Rock. I have better spells in place of the equipment, maybe if I was running an aggro version for Rock and had Stoneforge Mystic to put, it'd be pimping, but alas, that's not my style.

After consulting with the old thread for a few months, the list now looks like this:

Two changes I'm working are obtaining 1x Maze of Ith and 4x Tarmogoyf.
*Currently borrowing a friends playset of goyfs to playtest.+ 4x Tarmogoyf; -1x Eternal Witness, -1x Extripatel to S/B, -2x Qasali Pridemage to S/B.
More play testing will be done before and after to see what I like better.
Another change I'd like: +2x Marsh Flats, 1x Scrubland; - 2 basics. Maybe go to 61 though it's frowned upon.

My biggest concern is S/B.
I don't very much like Chalice of the Void or Pithing Needle (Needle more so b/c it comes down to me naming cards of value and I'm not so good at that.) I still have 3 open slots, which I was considering using for Krosan Grip, but then, my meta is unknown due to the lack of popularity.

Rule of Law sounds nice I feel that our weakest m/u is Tendrils based decks and there are not as many targets for RoL as they are for Ethersworn Canonist, and even though I like Aven Mindcensor, I think that leaving 3 mana open for him is a waste of a turn. Chalice of the Void does not stop storm counts, Ethersworn Canonist can still let them build storm as long as they play artifacts (so it just limits their options), Aven Mindcensor requires 3 mana open, turn 2-3 are perhaps the most dangerous turns for Tendrils based decks.

Leyline of Sanctity looks like a great card, trying to acquire 3x of these as well.

So my S/B needs the most work while I try to acquire the cards I mentioned earlier.

As to discussing the out of place card: Desolation Angel.
I try to focus on keeping my opponent off required mana, between my wastelands and vindicates (which will most likely be upped to 4), by the time my opponent starts recovering, I'm able to use her to seal the game. She's proved to be worth her while even though costing so much. I'd encourage testing it out to see what others think in including her.

Here's something that I found insightful concerning The Rock and its performance in large events:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20629_Too_Much_Information_Legacy_Two_Months_of_Data.html

We are strong contenders, yet our deck type is played more often than originally thought. Granted Survival and Merfolk out number us, but according to those stats, only Survival out classes us. We have the potential to becoming a Deck to Beat.

ZeinVoncy

12-02-2010, 05:12 PM

Actually, while thinking about Doran, I can't stop thinking about Walls, bonus to Overgrown Battlement and big beefy critters, LoL. I know, totally off subject.

There's already a thread on this deck:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11737-[Deck]-The-Rock

Stop trying to be cool and start your own thread about the exact same deck, we need information to be compiled together so it's organized, and not be going back and forth in two threads. If you want to start a new thread about a deck, make a new deck.

lordofthepit

12-03-2010, 03:53 AM

There's already a thread on this deck:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11737-[Deck]-The-Rock

Stop trying to be cool and start your own thread about the exact same deck, we need information to be compiled together so it's organized, and not be going back and forth in two threads. If you want to start a new thread about a deck, make a new deck.

I'm pretty sure the OP (sdematt) has been following the thread more closely than you. Because if you did, you'd notice that there was a request for a new primer--which he volunteered to write--and that the old thread was already locked by Bardo, with a link to this one, before you made your post.

ZeinVoncy

12-03-2010, 07:36 AM

There's already a thread on this deck:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11737-[Deck]-The-Rock

Stop trying to be cool and start your own thread about the exact same deck, we need information to be compiled together so it's organized, and not be going back and forth in two threads. If you want to start a new thread about a deck, make a new deck.

@dzra
Would you consider dropping some card to add another Elspeth? Been considering her for a bit, she seems good. How has she been working out w/ you? Does she last long enough for her ultimate or does she give you killing factor?

Martijn

12-03-2010, 08:56 AM

Hey guys,

I recently lost interest in playing my Ichorid, and want to make a new Rock deck. After reading up on mtgsalvation, the old thread and this one I tried to make my own list already, but got some problems with chosing the right cards. I'll post the list here, but at the moment there are 64 cards in the deck and I'm not sure which cards to drop.

I was thinking about dropping Extirpate, but I think it's useful against every deck just to remove some of the key cards of it. Or maybe 1-2 basics.

If you have any suggestions, please tell me and also why ofcourse ;)

Justin

12-03-2010, 09:47 AM

Matt, Thank you very much for the new Rock primer. It is outstanding and was badly needed.

I'd like to note a few other card options, although they are probably not ideal for today's modern Rock. One is Cabal Therapy. It can be played in the maindeck as additional discard. It is more effective with thoughtseize, and can be easily flashed back by saccing a Noble Hierarch, Birds, Wall, etc. that you don't need anymore. I am not necessarily recommending it, but it has been a solid option in Rock going back to its days in Extended.

Another option for a big beater is Progenitus, which of course, is played via Natural Order. A Rock build that plays green creatures that accelerate mana has a good shot about bringing him out on turn three. You would need a good number of green creatures, acceleration, and Top to maximize your chances. Personally, I prefer a "Dark Horrizons" version with Goyf, Confidant, and Knight. But I still think that Progenitus is worth mentioning as an option for other Rock builds.

sdematt

12-03-2010, 09:51 AM

Thanks Team America for your concern, but we've got it covered. It looks so familiar...it's the same...my word!

With your list Martijn, I think you should either choose whether you want to go for more control or more aggro/midrange. Usually, running more Deed/Elspeth means running a more control build, and changing the creature base slightly, but this isn't necessary. You could leave it as is and play 0 Mox Diamond and turn those Wastelands into Duals, for the sake of mana stability in a slower build.

Extirpate in the main is definitely a great card, so you may want to leave it in if your metagame is infested with Vangevine. Otherwise, just put 4 in the board. I'd also say cut 1 Deed, and now you're at 61, which is totally fine for Rock.

If you didn't want to do that, I'd say cut 1 Hymn, 1 Pulse, 1 Deed.

-Matt

ZeinVoncy

12-03-2010, 03:03 PM

Matt, Thank you very much for the new Rock primer. It is outstanding and was badly needed.

I'd like to note a few other card options, although they are probably not ideal for today's modern Rock. One is Cabal Therapy. It can be played in the maindeck as additional discard. It is more effective with thoughtseize, and can be easily flashed back by saccing a Noble Hierarch, Birds, Wall, etc. that you don't need anymore. I am not necessarily recommending it, but it has been a solid option in Rock going back to its days in Extended.

Another option for a big beater is Progenitus, which of course, is played via Natural Order. A Rock build that plays green creatures that accelerate mana has a good shot about bringing him out on turn three. You would need a good number of green creatures, acceleration, and Top to maximize your chances. Personally, I prefer a "Dark Horrizons" version with Goyf, Confidant, and Knight. But I still think that Progenitus is worth mentioning as an option for other Rock builds.

Post decklists using these cards. What would you drop for Progenitus and a few copies of Natural Order? I do not think it fits the Rock playstyle.

SpikeyMikey

12-03-2010, 04:31 PM

Problem with NOPro is we have no we to dump Prog out of hand. At least GW Sur can pitch him to Sur/Shaman and Bant NOPro has Brainstorm. If we draw him, he's dead and so are the 3 NO's.

Magicsk8ngenius

12-03-2010, 07:16 PM

If you play NOPro, you really have to take Bob out of the build as well. I for one am too big of a fan of Dark Confidant. There are many times where I win games simply because Dark Confidant hits the board and isn't answered immediately. If you take out Dark Confidant, this also means you can now play TOMBSTALKER. If you've ever played eva green you know that Tombstalker steals games all the time.

If there were to be another creature put into the decklist I am for the inclusion of Quasali Pridemage. Sometimes it can be used in place of the Gerrard Verdict spot from the "Dark Horizons" decklist posted from the 4th place starcity open. I would include 2x Quasali before considering any number of Doran. Though Doran is a beast I could realistically only see playing him as a 2x at most. The reason is this deck has a lot of 3CC drops. That makes the deck top heavy and also does not help with Dark Confidant. He is also legendary. With the amount of card draw that you get a lot of times I would hate to have one Doran out and two sitting in my hand with an opposing field of goblins staring at me with nothing to do.

These are my thoughts, and I'm happy to see that some people are starting to agree with Ghastly Demise, it surprisingly works quite well.

A build I tool around with when I get bored. Very LD dedicated which is why I play Witness to recur Sinkhole and such. Plays like a slower Deadguy Ale but with the bonus of having a super solid late game thanks to Witness and Deed. I should probably fit a Loam in the MB though. That or another Stronghold since the card is straight bonkers.

sdematt

12-03-2010, 08:24 PM

That build looks very fun to play. For me, I'd run some mana dorks and an Elspeth just for extra oomph. Overall, looks hella fun. Have you thought about Phyrexian Arena for the extra card draw since you're lacking Dark Confidant?

@Justin

I can't believe I forgot Cabal Therapy, but you understand what slaving over a hot computer can do to your brain. I'll add them in tomorrow with a possibly discussion of said option of No+Pro. Thanks for bringing it up!

With regards to the discussion about NO Rock, I'll just say this: You absolutely have to build the deck around it, you can't just stick NO-Pro into a Rock list and go to town. Blind revealing Progenitus will probably turn into one of those Magic stories that everyone will remind you about until the end of time (Remember that time when you killed yourself drawing Progenitus off Dark Confidant?). I have a similar story with 2 Dark Confidants on board, and drawing double Tombstalker off the top, with lethal on board against him that turn. Yeah.

I think you would most definitely need to construct the deck like NO Bant, but just NO Rock. Something like:

Numbers definitely aren't correct, but I'm saying you have to design it like NO Bant: Answers, green creatures, and NO-Pro. Problem being, it'd be a control-ish build probably without heavy discard in terms of Hymn/Verdict.

-Matt

Jeff Kruchkow

12-03-2010, 08:38 PM

That build looks very fun to play. For me, I'd run some mana dorks and an Elspeth just for extra oomph. Overall, looks hella fun. Have you thought about Phyrexian Arena for the extra card draw since you're lacking Dark Confidant?

Its hella fun to be sure and as is beats the pants off of just about any deck that wants to go to the late game. And yeah it really does need some sort of mana dork but only Sakura and Veteran fit since I have deed. And yeah I'll def have to get arena in somewhere, probably in place of Tops or Hymns.

With your list Martijn, I think you should either choose whether you want to go for more control or more aggro/midrange. Usually, running more Deed/Elspeth means running a more control build, and changing the creature base slightly, but this isn't necessary. You could leave it as is and play 0 Mox Diamond and turn those Wastelands into Duals, for the sake of mana stability in a slower build.

Extirpate in the main is definitely a great card, so you may want to leave it in if your metagame is infested with Vangevine. Otherwise, just put 4 in the board. I'd also say cut 1 Deed, and now you're at 61, which is totally fine for Rock.

If you didn't want to do that, I'd say cut 1 Hymn, 1 Pulse, 1 Deed.

-Matt

Thank you for the input Matt. But at the moment there aren't much Vengivine decks around in my current metagame, so I'll remove the extirpates from the mainboard and put 4 in the side. I like playing with Mox Diamond, just because of the speed and it makes KotR stronger aswell. But with the Moxes staying in, I think cutting a Deed wouldn't be too bad since they can screw you over aswell.

Have they hurt you against land disruption(waste, port, stifle) by being nonbasics that aren't fetches/scrub/bayous or not being basic lands more than the extra utility is worth?

Also, with a traditional Nelson build, how are the UG Venge, WG Goyf/kotr/mother survival, BGw Ooze, and Goblins matchups?

sdematt

12-03-2010, 09:23 PM

I've tested them with my builds (packing a bit more grave-hate, different boards) and they've been at least even. I haven't played Brad Nelson's list exactly, so I'm not 100% sure. It should be *decent* to say the least.

The utility lands don't hurt me as much as you'd think, due to the fact you're usually running 20 lands + 2/3 utility. Most of the time, I don't open with them, so it isn't a big deal. When you do, they're just as useful (since most still produce mana on their first turning, not counting Maze/Bog).

Have the small toolbox is nice because it can really help you out, and each have their own advantages. I've actually discussed them in the primer, so I'm not going to repeat it, just point you to the primer :cool:

For favourites, in mid range builds, Karakas is probably the best because it pulls you out of the absolute worst situation (Iona/Emrakul being in play). I'd say Bog is second favourite due to the surprise graveyard removal against opposing KotR's and Dredge/Vengevine.

I'd say in the right build, Volrath's Stronghold is the strongest as long as it doesn't die. it allows for some many shenanigans it's not even funny. You can literally run your opponent out of threats with it, but it's very slow.

Maze is incredible with Dueling Grounds, and on it's own. Stopping a creature with evasion that you can't block can be great, as can untapping a single threat you have onboard to block. It's like having vigilance!

Regards,

-Matt

sdematt

12-03-2010, 09:46 PM

@ Jeff K.

I fiddled with your list and got this. I used to play something very similar about 2 years ago, and it was fun as hell :D

sorry for the double post, could've sworn there was a person who posted after me. Sorry again!

-Matt

Dzra

12-04-2010, 01:14 AM

@dzra
Would you consider dropping some card to add another Elspeth? Been considering her for a bit, she seems good. How has she been working out w/ you? Does she last long enough for her ultimate or does she give you killing factor?

I've really liked Elspeth. I've never used her ultimate (mostly because she ends the game so quickly). It takes quite a bit of effort on their part to kill her since she can pump out tokens nonstop. She plays very well with Pernicious Deed also. Usually I'll play very aggressively with her and use her to fly over their board for a really fast clock. I'm almost never sad to see her so I've given some thought to adding a second, but the main reason I haven't so far is consistency.

1) I really don't want to see her until turn 3+.

2) She's legendary and since we can't Brainstorm her away it'd be major facepalm to draw 2.

3) I don't really want to drop any of my 4-ofs.

Long story short, I rarely if ever SB her out and I love the card to death, but I feel like playing more than 1 has the potential to clog us up too much.

A build I tool around with when I get bored. Very LD dedicated which is why I play Witness to recur Sinkhole and such. Plays like a slower Deadguy Ale but with the bonus of having a super solid late game thanks to Witness and Deed. I should probably fit a Loam in the MB though. That or another Stronghold since the card is straight bonkers.

This is like Eva Green w/ splash white for StP and Vendicate?

ZeinVoncy

12-04-2010, 08:32 AM

@ Dzra

Awesome, I can see what you mean by having more then 1 is not required, I might have to fit room into my build, maybe drop an Angel for one. My Desolation Angel usually ends games b/c she's flying and most opponents cannot handle it. I'll have to consider what to drop if I were to put one in.

@ sdematt

The only way I see Lord of Extinction being a good card is either: A) Post Pernicious Deed activation for 4 and less, or B) In a Stoneforge Mystic build where the Equipment gives him the bonus's to make it hard to deal with. Otherwise he's just an oversized creature for 5cc that does not protect himself.

sdematt

12-04-2010, 10:49 AM

That's EXACTLY why I'm using him:smile:

He's a giant oaf that does nothing, except get big. This may seem terrible, and yes, early on, it's so bad. But, the only thing that removes it that's relevant is Swords. But, I hear gaining 30 life is pretty good. You can even Swords him yourself to get into the end game :P

Honestly, he's there for the very late game after multiple Deeds. He's basically there as a "If you strike me down, I'll be come more powerful than you could possibly imagine" coupled with an "Answer me now or die, but again, answering leads to me still beating you." Plus, you get to play LoE in Legacy. I'm pretty sure that's worth it right there :tongue:

-Matt

ZeinVoncy

12-04-2010, 11:35 AM

Hey sdematt, what version of Rock do you play? I do not remember seeing your list posted anywheres, at least an up to date one.

Has anyone tried out Desolation Angel in a mid-range/control setup? I'm loving it, but would love to hear what other people think after trying it.

Tacosnape

12-04-2010, 11:37 AM

Two rogue cards I've been using to solid success.

1. Darkblast. One copy. Kills Lackey, Noble Hierarch and other green 1-drop acceleration guys, Confidant, Mother of Runes, Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept, Steppe Lynx, Memnite, Goblin Welder, and half the other random 1/1's the format coughs up on a regular basis. It also breaks the stalemate of Tarmogoyf on Tarmogoyf action, can be used to pump Knight of the Reliquary, and is an absolute godsend if you've got a Top out and your top three cards are utter garbage.

2. Tomb of Urami. I'll probably cut this eventually, but it's so incredibly sexy with Knight of the Reliquary. A 5/5 Knight can EOT fetch tomb, and if you've got the mana to activate it, suddenly they're looking at a swing of 14, 15+. Or if you need the flying and to leave the Knight as a ground control guy, you can take things a little slower. Fetch up the Tomb, then at your leisure you can activate Knight and then activate Tomb in response, leaving you still with one land.

1. Darkblast. One copy. Kills Lackey, Noble Hierarch and other green 1-drop acceleration guys, Confidant, Mother of Runes, Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept, Steppe Lynx, Memnite, Goblin Welder, and half the other random 1/1's the format coughs up on a regular basis. It also breaks the stalemate of Tarmogoyf on Tarmogoyf action, can be used to pump Knight of the Reliquary, and is an absolute godsend if you've got a Top out and your top three cards are utter garbage.

2. Tomb of Urami. I'll probably cut this eventually, but it's so incredibly sexy with Knight of the Reliquary. A 5/5 Knight can EOT fetch tomb, and if you've got the mana to activate it, suddenly they're looking at a swing of 14, 15+. Or if you need the flying and to leave the Knight as a ground control guy, you can take things a little slower. Fetch up the Tomb, then at your leisure you can activate Knight and then activate Tomb in response, leaving you still with one land.

Darkblast is a card to think about, but if it's not used T1-T3, I'd consider it dead card in the long run. T1-T3 is generally used to establish hand/land control for us.

You use Tomb of Urami as I use Desolation Angel, isn't it fun to blow up lands after KotR is in play? :D

Plays very much like Brad Nelson's list, except I have a small amount of recursion, less discard, but more "firepower" (6 Swords, 5 Vindicates). It plays very nicely; It's very similar to Brad Nelson's list, except you find yourself a Swords a little more often, and Deed a little less. I could cut Deed altogether, but it's too good :P

-Matt

Jackehehe

12-04-2010, 01:59 PM

Hello guys, good job working with the new thread (big thanks Matt!) I haven't played the rock before but I'm thinking of having a go at it. What tempts me about The Rock is its versatility and the variety of different lists and I reckon its very rewarding having a stable list and then tune it to your own preference and meta. What I'm trying to say is that The Rock seems to be very fun to construct as a deck and play at the same time.

Also, playing controll without blue seems like a really fun concept which leads me to my question: what do the most successful controll-rock list look like?

Additionally, my local meta is very crowded with different kind of fast-aggro decks such as goblin, zoo, 'folk, some vengevine and standard controll lists such as countertop/jacestill. How would a more controllish The Rock-list perform in such a meta? I know aggro-rock is probably a more solid choice here but those lists (dark horizions for instance) just look a lot less exciting than its controll counterpart

SpikeyMikey

12-04-2010, 02:31 PM

Rock is, by it's design, very weak against fast aggro. This is because you're generally losing tempo against a deck like Zoo with every play, and the cards you have that are designed to generate CA (Wasteland, Deed/EE, Hymn, Confidant) can largely be ignored by these fast decks. They're difficult to mana screw because of their incredibly low curve, they play their hands out quickly, so the discard is often dead, they can easily remove Confidant and Deed/EE are generally going to be a tempo loss (but still your best bet) because you're invariably spending 4-6 mana to use them and they've likely spent less on what you're killing.

You could build a BGW deck that has enough cheap removal (Swords/Path/whatever) to give you a reasonable matchup against fast aggro, but when you're packing 8 MD Plow effects, you're going to draw dead against Landstill a LOT. A resolved Counterbalance wrecks your day. CotV 1. Etc.

To me, it sounds like what you want is something like TES or Reanimator. Or possibly Dragon Stompy, if you're talking shorter tournies (it will crap out on you over 5+ rounds).

SpikeyMikey

12-04-2010, 02:38 PM

I've really liked Elspeth. I've never used her ultimate (mostly because she ends the game so quickly). It takes quite a bit of effort on their part to kill her since she can pump out tokens nonstop. She plays very well with Pernicious Deed also. Usually I'll play very aggressively with her and use her to fly over their board for a really fast clock. I'm almost never sad to see her so I've given some thought to adding a second, but the main reason I haven't so far is consistency.

1) I really don't want to see her until turn 3+.

2) She's legendary and since we can't Brainstorm her away it'd be major facepalm to draw 2.

3) I don't really want to drop any of my 4-ofs.

Long story short, I rarely if ever SB her out and I love the card to death, but I feel like playing more than 1 has the potential to clog us up too much.

I run her too, and it's basically the same thing. I don't want her in my opening hand. I want gas in my opening hand, and she's not it. God knows I run enough things already that I never want to actually draw early (Bojuka Bog, Maze of Ith, Volrath's Stronghold, multiple Vindicates or Deeds). My gas to slow control ratio is higher than most people's though. It's not that I'd mind drawing a second one late game, she's got a giant bullseye on her head and she's not making it to ultimate range whether you win right then and there or not. Once she hits the board, your opponent is going to do everything they can to get rid of her.

But yeah, not enough room for multiples, don't want her early. Taco, those are interesting ideas. I'm not so sure about the Tomb because it's an all-in play and I'd rather grind the games out, but Darkblast is very intriguing. I may have to try and shoehorn one into my listing. You should be running the Maze of Ith though. I held out for a long time on that one, and now that it's in, I can't believe I was so stubborn. The things it does with an active KotR... Being able to beat every turn AND pump/fetch utility lands is ridiculous.

Team America

12-04-2010, 02:57 PM

I didn't know the situation, sorry about the post, and great work Matt. I hope to see this thread flourish because I think this deck is awesome. It's been top 8ing consistently at large tournaments, with Grand Prix Columbus and 3 out of 4 previous SCG 5k, and the Dutch championships.

These cards have all won me games on their own over the last couple weeks. I don't run Horizon Canopy because it's a one time draw effect, where the other cards have the ability to change the game for multiple turns. IMO, using Knight as a toolbox for answers with the utility lands is one of the better reasons to play this deck.

Finally, Maze is so freakin' effective that I've considered running a second one. Anybody else doing 2x Maze? Are there any downsides to doing it?

Cheers,

Jimmy

2Rach

12-04-2010, 04:47 PM

^ How do you fit all four in your manabase? I can't find room. Matt doesn't run Wastes, is that what you do?

For those that still run the 4 wastes/vinds package, how often do you find yourself destroying lands instead of creatures with Vindicate against opponents that have creature-based decks?

Also, I see you guys dropping the Verdicts. Didn't like 'em? Seems like multiple Hymns are good. I did a little testing and it's no Hymn, but it's still a good 142 with more utility late game. Taking them out seems to me to weaken the combo matchup, needing continuous discard.

This deck is just so packed with possibilities, I'm trying to fit 66 cards in a 60 card deck. Stupid Mox Diamonds, along with the extra lands, taking up space where I could run awesome spells instead. Stupid Wastes, Ports, Vindicates, Stifles, and Moons forcing me to run Mox Diamonds. @#$$!

EDIT:
If anyone's wondering, I got raped by Waste+Port in Goblins running a BGW build w/ no moxes and less lands(and no wastes). Around 70% of his wins were due to that combo. Damn Caleb. lol

ZeinVoncy

12-04-2010, 05:27 PM

For those that still run the 4 wastes/vinds package, how often do you find yourself destroying lands instead of creatures with Vindicate against opponents that have creature-based decks?

Actually I do find myself targeting lands more often then creatures. It's great, not to mention once they can recover, I'm able to drop Desolation Angel to take out any chance of recovery.

I originally had Verdicts as well, so I converted to Hymns, which I had a playset of. Since I do target lands more often, the person would opt to discard irrelevant cards that didn't make much of a difference. Hymns are just better.

Best part of Rock is it can change to whoever wants it to fit them better. I tend to be more land aggressive, other people prefer more Swords and are more creature aggressive, as while others might want more discard.

@Mox Diamond comments, changing from Hierarchic to Mox, I love that they can give you a tempo change quicker then hierarchic, but oft times, I'll draw one off a dead hand and just /sigh, as opposed to drawing off Bob and thank the fact I didn't take damage. Nothing is perfect, I like having them post Desolation Angel to use.

JimmyC27

12-04-2010, 06:50 PM

@2Rach:

I dropped the Wastelands for mana consistency. I was tired of losing one color to Merfolk/Goblins and not being able to remove threats because I couldn't get green for Deed or white for STP/Vindicate, etc. Here's my mana base for the record:

Also, I dropped 2x Gerrard's Verdicts for 2x Elspeth. My logic is that I already run 8 discard spells (4x Thoughtseize, 4x Hymn) so I figured the 9th and 10th discards spells had marginal impact, if any. However, Elspeth can win games on her own. This could change depending on the meta too--ie, heavy combo, etc.

Cheers,

Jimmy

SpikeyMikey

12-05-2010, 03:31 AM

I've made some minor tweaks to my build. It's still the odd duck because it doesn't main Hymns, but they're in the board now. I've given up trying to board in Fish hate, I've kept the Dueling Grounds because of their broad use against aggro, but my build looks like this now:

We'll see how the changes work out for me. They're pretty minor, so I don't expect to see much difference except in post-board (MB changes are just an Extirpate for the 3rd Vindicate and an Edict for the 4th Plow. I'm weaker against NOPro and VV Survival, but with the exception of GW, Survival is pretty easy anyway. It's getting tougher to board against Survival though, because so much of my SB is for other decks but good tangentially against Survival decks. I mean really, there's nothing in my board that I *don't* want against U/G Vengevival.

I also find a problem with what to board against Vengevival, because I want to see it all. Dueling Grounds, Extirpates, Swords/Path; what's not to like? It gets to the point where how much do I board about before I'm just a deck of answers with no real threats?

-Matt

ZeinVoncy

12-05-2010, 12:51 PM

What I worry about more is Necrotic Ooze, other then Extirpate, what do we do? Should Runed Halo be seeing more S/B?

f|i[p]

12-05-2010, 04:27 PM

I brought Rock to a 70+ person tourney today and took 2nd after 6 rounds of swiss.. Its too bad that the top 8 just decided to split the prizes as it was already 10pm and the top 8 matches haven't even started. Everyone was tired and wanted to go home as it was Monday the next day.

In the top 8 was
1 Dredge
2 Rock
7th Merfolks
8th dreadstill

So my immediate match was merfolks.. which I thought was slightly positive.. Not super favorable but slightly in my favor.

Im not sure about the other decks placing but these are the rest of the top 8

Affinity which raped survival decks all day
enchantress
zoo
burn

All in all, the only match up in the top 8 I was worried about was Burn . As I lost to the same player in the 4th round..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So on to the list, I used a almost the same but a slightly different build...I opted for an acceleration less rock which I found quite enough for my taste. I don't think I need the acceleration, as for me I think it was a waste of space and could have better cards in its place but this is just my opinion. And I have my own reasons for not being happy with mox or birds/noble.

Just to explain a little about my choices I initially removed 3 mox Diamonds and tried 3 birds, but I was never really satisfied hence I decided I don't need acceleration and tried the build without any and was quite happy that it was stable and never really seemed to need it. So I actually removed the 3 of them and replaced them with 2 ghastly demise and 1 loam at first..Loams purpose was to reuse wasteland and to avoid land screw,occasionally it was used to dredge when I find nothing useful with sensei. 2 ghastly demise, was put in to avoid early beaters. Which would slow some decks down at the least. These 3 slots were constantly changing, but the only real changes I was putting was the number of ghastly demise and loams. Then I only got to borrow 3 thoughtseize so I had to replace 1 with inquisition and was never happy with 1 piece so I just decided to go 2 inquisition and 3 thoughtseize. now for the other 2, it was either 2 ghastly or 2 loams. I couldn't decide.. so I just split them at the last minute before submitting my deck list.

On to the report... I was quite tired during the games as I had a really bad hangover from drinking the night before, but still decided to play. I didnt take notes I was too lazy and too hung over to do any listing at all.. So Ill just post what I remember.

Round 1 Vs Uw merfolks...
G1 - He plays. Vial , and some merfolks.. He kills me as I don't get to find any removal.

After this I couldn't decide if I should actually board in edicts.or not..
board in -2 dueling grounds, 1 deed, 1 tutor, the tabernacle,and ghastly demise.
board out- Loam,Vindicates and Bodjuka bog.

G2 - I kill all his creatures and win with goyf
I still can't decide if I need edicts. Anyway I tried them out.
Board in- 3 d. edict
board out- 3 hymn

G3 -I destroy most of his lands, and land with wasteland, and vindicate. Kotr and goyf hold of the merfolks with me destroying his lands almost every turn he gets 2 lands left, then I fetch tabernacle and start killing his creatures with edicts and stp. Via sensei and Kotr.

Thoughts on the match up. I think its slightly positive on my build. Just slightly. But I still don't know if I need those edicts. Probably not.

2-1 Record
1 win

Round 2 Seems like the Gate with dark depths. Or maybe just depths. My memory of this was fuzzy as I think I mixed up g1 and 2..Im not sure if g1 was where I won or g2.. but anyway ill just make a guess.

G1 - He wins, as I made a bad decision to vindicate a creature rather than destroy jitte. LEsson learned.. I was thinking he doesn't have much creatures. But was wrong.
BOard in: I think I board in Pernicious, tabernacle and some edicts.
Board out: I don't remember, Loam ghastly demise (hez creatures were black) and probably some other stuff.

G2- I win via sensei and confidant. I got to discard first and took out his smother then dropped a confidant . I keep a karakas in my hand just incase he has those hexmage sheenigans.. and he did.. So karakas bids mirat lage farewell.
No changes in the board

G3. I play with a hand of 1 wasteland 1 maze of ith 1 sensei 1 confidant and some other random stuff.. This was actually a bad decision for me. As I should have known he has a 1st turn discard. So on his 1st turn he casts thoughtseize to strip away my top. I top deck a verdant catacombs
and drop it fetch a basic swamp and cast my own discard nabbing his only creature control. 2nd turn drop a confidant, and start to win from then on. Vindicate most of his lands And I remember a situation where he had a hex mage and depths in play. and I vindicate hexmage to force him to sacrifice and then edict the 20/20 legend.

THoughts on the match. I have no idea.

Over all
2 round wins
4-2 stats

Round 3 Rock Hes a friend and a cool guy. He runs a more aggro version of rock. Doran tombstalkers and such.No confidant however.
G1. 1st turn ritual into sensei thoughtseize.. He couldnt handle stp and vindicates. Got mana screwed. He didn't run wastalands on his build and almost no way of destroying maze of ith.
Board in: edict.
Board out : I forgot. I didnt board out bog since he ran tombstalkers and I was hoping to at least delay him on that.
G2: Almost same as G1 but this time I use sensei and Kotr to find cards I need to handle his aggressive creatures.

Thoughts on the match.. None.. sensei rocks.

Round 4 Burn, I had no idea what he was playing...

G1: 1st turn thoughtseize and I saw it was burn.. IM like wow.. im in trouble.... I remove a bolt... turn to I discard PoP. turn 3 drop a finks...But it still wasnt enough. He top decks another Pop and I take 8 damage. I get burned to a crisp
Board in: Duress, 4 extirpates, ghastly demise this is for those goblin guides just incase.
Board out: Confidant and other stuff.. I dont remember.
G2: I lose even if I stped my own goyf..

Over all
3-1
4-4 stats

Round 5: Dredge this one one of the top 10 eternal players in our country and has been playing dredge in vintage and legacy almost his whole career.

G1: We both mull to 6. He doesn't play anything and passes the turn. I drop land thoughtseize and rip off a breakthrough. I see that he doesn't have lands.. Or any other discard outlet. I drop confidant next turn.. as he started to drop lands... as he gets to start dredeging .. I also start wasting his lands.. I top deck a bog and remove his graveyard. I have a goyf in play and confidant but couldnt attack because of stink weed imps. I didn't want to give him a dredger. Stinkweeds start eating at my life a point at a time, while confidant was also killing me slowly. I get a loam.. and start wasting and loaming my own bojuka bogs.It takes 2 turns to do but at least, I get a free tormods crypt every turn. I wasnt sure what he was trying to do at some point as he cast careful study and discards 3 cards instead of 2. He doesnt seem to count his damage as well from his city of brass and cephalid land. and even with my hang over I noticed this things. I wasn't taking notes on paper as I said I was hung over really bad, So I was leaning at looking at his paper for life scores.So Each time he did it I always reminded him, that he has damage from his lands and that he cant discard 3 cards.. He also tried to switch what he discarded from careful study during my turn and I didn't allow it. I wasnt sure if he was trying to cheat me or what.. anyway.. I won this match because of loam and bog.

Side in : Except for chokle and ghastly demise, I side in everyting
Side out :4 hymns 4 vindicates, ghastly demise dont know what else I took off.

G2: I have an opening hand with extirpate and thoughtseize... It was enough for me...I think he discards something a dredger.. I discard his other spell. forgot what.. He dredges into bridge and other stuff.. On my turn I extirpate bridge... That should slow him enough... Next I drop confidant.. then the tabernacle land... The extirpate his ichorid then extirpate his narcomoeba... Thats enough for me..

ROund 6: Zoo

G1: I have nO stp or any creature control but I have sensei and 2 wastalands.. and 2 more non basics.. I think this is enough to slow him down..
He drops wild nacatyl.. I waste... He drops land, attack for 3 and drops kird ape..next turn I waste... He drops another land attacks for 5.. Im at 12 now...I top deck another wasteland., I waste him another time... He starts attacking with his 2 1/1's and brings me down to 4. I look at sensei and see nothing I can work with. I don't want to go down to 3 because of a fetch, as I will put myself within burn range.But I will lose anyway if I don't fetch and find antyhing relevant. I already have a goyf in play but is just on defense.. I crack my fetch and go down to 3. I see a stp. and draw it as fast as I could.. Now at least I am safe. I get Kotr and he never finds another land.

Note he was quite pissed off because I wasted him 3 x.. I told him it was just luck on my part.He didnt wan't to fetch a basic land because the odds of me getting a 3rd wastland was quite low.
Board in: Ghastly demise, Deed, tutor, the tabernacle,duress and other stuff...
BOard out: 1 thoughtseize, I think I took off a single vindicate or 2.. Don't remember much.

G2: He plays first turn ape...And during my turn makes a joke and puts his land on the graveyard... But yeah he was right I did have 1st turn wastalnd again... I waste his land... He drops a 2nd land.. I waste it again the 2nd time. I have 1 tutor and 1 loam in hand still... He was quite annoyed again at wasteland... He gets a basic land the next time around...I was baiting confidants for burn.. as Soon as he gets 2-3 basics he drops 2 more nacatyls and at his end turn I fetch a EE.. which gets rid of his 3 creatures.. I vindicate his basic land.. and start loaming wastelands. I win after a while...

5-1 record
10-4 stats

MVP was senseis divining top. Kotr. and the blessing from above, without it I would have never found the right cards at the right time.. I think the hang over made me think better..

Notes on the deck itself Sensei is extremely important. Im quite happy with my build, its a little bit more controlling with the extra demise but I'm happy with it. Kitchen finks was so, so..I was still scared of Red all day.. Zoo and sligh or burn is still a scarey match up even with finks maindeck.

If there was anything I would fix in the deck , it might be, 1 ghastly and 1 loam. It might end up as 2 loams or 2 ghastly but I am inclined with loams and I will probably move ghastly to the sideboard. Or another option is to remove finks maindeck and add in 2 ghastly demise...which I would also like to see. So the cards that will be constantly switch in my list for now will be.. 1 ghastly demise 1 loam and the 2 kitchen finks. They could go either way.

Sideboard has to be fixed... I would probably look for some space for 2 gerrards verdict. Duress woould definitely become a verdict... I actually wanted to have 2 chokes on the Sb but there seems to be no space. But anyway Ill think of fixing my sideboard some other time..IM off to bed..

On the tournament itself, aside from starting late it was great.. I would have liked to play the top 8 however, too bad it was soo late at night.

Please do bear with the report as thats all I can remember..

SpikeyMikey

12-05-2010, 07:35 PM

It was definitely better when I had Hierarchs in the main, but the way I look at it, they're Confidants #5 and 6 against Landstill or Countertop. They allow me to always stay ahead of my opponent on both mana and answers. Used to be 3 Selkies, but the 3rd one turned into a Choke because it's better against Fish and NOPro, especially now that I'm down to 2 Edicts main and can't be confident of winning game 1. Been having a run of bad games in terms of opening mana base. It's been very fragile lately, which is strange since I haven't changed the mana in some time. I'm almost tempted to go basic Plains instead of basic Forest and go 4/2/1 on Marsh Flats/Verdant Catacombs/Windswept Heath. There's really no good reason for the current split outside of a little decklist Feng Shui. The question is, is it a big enough difference for me to shell out the money to get different fetches? Other than when I need to fetch basics (which is almost never), it doesn't matter which fetch I'm playing.

ZeinVoncy: I've found Ooze Survival to be tougher than U/G, but still not bad. They've got some discard which can strip an Extirpate out of your opening grip and so many mana critters that it's almost impossible to slow their mana down, but you should still be able to disrupt them long enough to draw out either Extirpate or Knight of the Reliquary. Knight -> Bog is only effective against them once, because after that they'll be sure to get Shriekmaw before attempting to Ooze out. But while they have a ton of mana, Fauna Shaman shouldn't be a threat against you, so it's only the actual Survival you have to worry about. They generally don't run more than 1 copy each of Triscuit or Devourer, so you can Extirpate or Bog one (or both) away and not have to worry about Ooze anymore. Unless Ooze tapping for 1 of any color scares you. Of course, I run Extirpate main, so I have a fairly decent matchup game 1, and game 2 I bring in Aven Mindcensor which absolutely wrecks them. They pack 1 removal spell. ONE. You drop Mindcensor on turn 3, all they can do is drop mana critters and cry.

I'll take Mindcensor over Halo any day of the week, as Mindcensor is far better against storm. You can name Tendrils or Belcher against storm decks, but they'll just search out a way to bounce it while going off. They're not going off until turn 3 anyway, and you can slow them beyond that with some early discard, meaning that they're going to be spending the first few turns trying to sculpt a hand while you're tearing it apart. If you don't follow it up with a quick threat, they will eventually get there, but if you're running a Nelson-style list, turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Mindcensor is pretty much GG. Between the discard and the land destruction, you can keep them off balance long enough to win with almost any clock. Mindcensor in response to a Doomsday will probably force the concession right there.

sdematt

12-06-2010, 01:29 AM

Congrats, Flip!

If you're worried about Burn (either from Zoo or Mono Red Burn), Leyline of Sanctity is your best friend!

All in all, congrats. What kind of swag did you take home?

-Matt

f|i[p]

12-06-2010, 02:27 AM

Well as for what I brought home.. it was mostly cash.. since people didn't want to play out the top 8... I really wanted to play it out, but alas, it was too late... And majority wins.. since I seem to be the only person who wanted to play it out... I actually wanted to put sanctity on the sideboard before the tourney started but I had no one to borrow from, maybe as 2 pieces, but I think gerrards verdict might also be a good idea on the side...

Things I want to add in... I guess its either leyline or gerrards verdict for me...I still have to look for good options vs red. I wanted also to add another choke to help with control, but I never really got to test against any blue based control deck.

Just to ask your opinions, if you had edicts on your sb, would you side them in and take out hymn to tourach for merfolk? I was also thinking about choke... Is it actually good against merfolk? I never sided them in . Vial was one of my reasoning.

SpikeyMikey

12-06-2010, 06:24 PM

Yes, Choke is good against the Fish. Vial is relatively easy to deal with and if they're only dropping 1 creature a turn and can't effectively use Coralhelm Commander, you're in good shape. The tough part is that both choke and Dueling Grounds can be hit by Hibernation and with so much VV in the format, they're bound to be packing 4. Those are our best 2 answers to them and it hits KotR and goyf as well. I haven't figured out an answer to that riddle yet.

Dzra

12-06-2010, 07:10 PM

I think the best thing against Merfolk is just bringing in as much removal as you can. I don't like Edict much, but if it's all you have in your SB... Choke hits Merfolk pretty hard too. They only have 4 Vials in their deck after all, you should have a whole lot more ways of removing it.

Rainbow Maker

12-07-2010, 04:53 AM

Hello everyone. I haven't been able to test my list that much. My very limited testing makes me believe that hierarch is better than diamond in most builds. I would like some help with my list though if you guys wouldn't mind.

Edit: Flip i was wondering if you had tried experimenting with a nantuko monastery; or if you could even find the space to fit it in.

ZeinVoncy

12-07-2010, 07:34 AM

Actually I run Nantuko Monastery, I find it to be another aggressor that's handy time to time, if not, its at least wasteland material that keeps the focus off my duals.
Also as a side note, I'll be replacing my Volrath's Stronghold with Maze of Ith, putting stronghold to the s/b.

Rainbow Maker

12-07-2010, 10:24 AM

Right now with my list i'm trying 2 loams which warranted the maindeck inclusion stronghold... Maze of Ith is amazing. keeping goyfs at bay. It's really nice giveing your creatures vigilance. Extremely nice when later you just tutor a land up with knight. Somewhere in my manabase i run try to fit nantuko in. He really just seems so powerful, especially when he can be recurred.

ZeinVoncy

12-07-2010, 11:17 AM

I use to use Life from the Loam but I just found it slowing me down. Most of the time I'd dredge away some utility I could use at the time. I best use for LftL would be preventing life loss from Dark Confidant.
Holding a semi-lock just did not justify keeping LftL in my experience.

f|i[p]

12-07-2010, 11:21 AM

Edit: Flip i was wondering if you had tried experimenting with a nantuko monastery; or if you could even find the space to fit it in.

In all honesty I was pretty satisfied with 23 lands, and 4 wastelands.. The utility lands I use which mainly are bog, ith , karakas,wasteland are all interchangeable. So if you would fit in a nantuko monastery somewhere in the list, I guess I would replace one of these cards first as your first choice.

Ith is too amazing to take off. So I would probably replace karakas or bog first as my first choice if I were to put nantuko monestary in. It provides colorless mana, but since you are running noble I guess its ok.

I have never really tested nantuko monestary however. It might be worth testing if you find yourself lacking on beaters..

Remember I don't run mox diamonds or noble/birds on my list.

Rainbow Maker

12-07-2010, 12:01 PM

Right now i'm testing roughly 4 or 5 different versions of the list. Most of the testing is assuming Survival is getting axed. I hope it does. The possible locks are only 1 reason i'm testing loam. Instead of running diamonds or hierarch i'm running loam. Which still leaves 1 spot in the place of a tempoish cards. I don't think a recurring wastelands, putting witness on top with stronghold, recurring maze of ith, bringing back nantuko or bog are weak plays.

I think flip has more experience with loam in this deck, but I wouldn't think you would aggressively loam each turn. unless you were trying to "dig" for something. of make knight bigger. i think it's more like i have a wasteland or 2 in the graveyard, i can strip mine some lands. right now in the list with loam i believe i am using
4 wasteland
1 bojuka bog
1 maze of ith
1 stronghold

I think i might try 3 wastes and a monastery. i'm post my results after some testing

ZeinVoncy

12-07-2010, 12:19 PM

I think flip has more experience with loam in this deck, but I wouldn't think you would aggressively loam each turn.

How would you know that?
Do you know how long I had LftL in my deck?
How much testing I underwent before deciding to ditch it?
I've tested many cards before doing changes with this deck, hell, I'm STILL running Desolation Angel.
I also never stated that you would aggressively loam every turn, in that case, I should be posting in a Dredge forum instead of Rock. . . but hey, what do I know?

Rainbow Maker

12-07-2010, 12:40 PM

How would you know that?
Do you know how long I had LftL in my deck?
How much testing I underwent before deciding to ditch it?
I've tested many cards before doing changes with this deck, hell, I'm STILL running Desolation Angel.
I also never stated that you would aggressively loam every turn, in that case, I should be posting in a Dredge forum instead of Rock. . . but hey, what do I know?

I wasn't regarding to you first of all. I was talking about myself. Actually Trisomy 21 aggressively loams quite a bit. dredge is a combo deck more than anything else. Cards aren't always good in everyones build. look at dredge lists. some run led. if i added led to a list without led it would perform horribly

ZeinVoncy

12-07-2010, 01:01 PM

My mistake and apologies, sounded like it. Could be my bitter mood due to bad day.

Let us know if you get better results, mayhap I over looked something or don't know of some unknown tech.

Again, sorry for the aggressive post. >.>

Rainbow Maker

12-07-2010, 01:16 PM

No, don't worry about it. I can easily see how my post came of as rude. i'll pos some results in a while

sdematt

12-07-2010, 01:31 PM

I'm going to be doing several hours of Rock testing today, I hope to try different tech, builds, etc. I'll let you all know how it goes.

So, I noticed Flip has his own name for his Rock deck, San Diego Rock. I like the name to be honest. Do any of your builds have "special" names?

I've called my build "Alcatraz" for the longest time (you know, The Rock) but doesn't anyone have anything else besides Dark Horizons/Junk?

-Matt

zalachan

12-07-2010, 01:34 PM

Thanks for the new primer sdematt, im loving it!
Maybe you could add the aggro stax version to the list of matchups (kinda like this: http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiavdoIiak9), which seems to be pretty good foil to the contenders in the current meta.

About the deck (midrange, standard version) anyone playing Sejiri Steppe? I'm also considering dropping Verdicts, but don't know what for. I'm considering Elspeth/Path/Loam/Extirpate/Demise, but am leaning towards Witness backup plan. I don't really know what to tuck in, i just don't see Verdicts being that good.

f|i[p]

12-07-2010, 01:43 PM

@ sdematt
No, it was spikeymikey who called his list san diego rock..Currently I don't have any name for my rock build. Bur I might be inclined to look for one..
----------
I am not trying to compete with people as regards to experience with the deck or particular cards in it. I am mainly a bgw survival, rock and stax player and have been playing different variants of those decks for years and years.This forum is for people who are new to the deck as well as those who are experienced with it to gain some new ideas and possibly shed some information on certain aspects of the deck. Every ones list has its differences, and as rock evolves, so does their match ups and its a constant learning for all players old and new. No need to be aggressive to point out that you know best..

As for my experience with Loam, Loams were ok. Nothing really spectacular, but the main reason for me to add it was to avoid getting land screwed. I didn't run acceleration which could lead me to slow down with a single wasteland or get color screwed with it.It also gave me the option to fetch a bayou first before scrubland just incase I was afraid of an incoming wasteland. The other uses were just a bonus. I knew it would be good in landstill variants and some control. Loams are quite slow, as well and I normally would side them out vs fast decks.

I never really loam early on unless I have nothing to do on turn 2 or I was afraid of a wasteland or didn't have my 3rd land in hand. Most of the situations where loam helped me was with recurring bog (vs dredge), recurring fetch lands to be able to shuffle the deck and dredging when I sensei and actually see nothing useful.

In honesty, I even considered solitary confinement in the sb, if I was going to run 2 md life from the loam. But I would need to have a cycle land somewhere in there to make full use of confinement. So I kinda dropped the idea. Althoug the confinement idea can still work, because nobody really sb's grave hate for this deck, or artifact and enchantment hate at all in my experience.

Loams can easily be replaced and will be the first one to go when I find a better card that would suit my build with no acceleration.

I remember a tournament report a week ago, where in a rock list or junk list had a single loam and a single cycler somewhere md or sb. and took one spot in the top 8 in a big tourney as well.

Loam will be the first to go if I find a good enough replacement card.

I have 2 - 4 slots open for debate in my tournament list a few days ago. It was the single loam, single ghastly and 2 kitchen finks. Finks never really worked vs burn. It was never enough. Hence I removed finks and would probably put another ghastly and loam main deck for now. So 2 loams and 2 ghastly demise for my current list.Sb is working great for me.If I see any innovative ideas I would probably try it myself.

As I said the mvp of this deck is sensei as it can find all the answers you need. With the right combination of fetches and creatures it becomes a very very important tool for the deck.

Rainbow Maker

12-07-2010, 02:27 PM

loam has been great in the mirror and against landstill variants so far.

@flip Have you tried Pridemage. I found him good. I liked him in most builds i put him in

Edit: I have been thinking of naming the deck something like Team Palestine or Team Kenya. But the problem is there isn't red in the deck. Team Tucan?

Magicsk8ngenius

12-07-2010, 09:55 PM

I was calling my deck "New Age Rock" for a while. As I have changed and evolved the deck though I stopped calling it that because it's no longer the same deck. The old version I used to play ran no discard with 3x Life from the Loam, 4x barren moor, main deck kitchen finks and Quasali with a splash of red for firespouts. I played that version at the Grand Prix Columbus earlier this year and ended up in 71st (just outside the money, with same points, just bad tiebreakers). Lately I've just been calling it the Rock because there seems to be a general consensus on the cards played in the list and I play a pretty standardized build now.

@Rainbow: Always play hymn over verdict. Sometimes you can get them to discard their only 2 lands in hand and then wasteland/vindicate whatever land they play making for ultimate mana screwage.

f|i[p]

12-08-2010, 12:11 AM

@ rainbow maker

No I haven't really tried pridemage in the deck..I'm sure he is useful. But in all honesty I don't see reason to do so, at least for my build. I have 2 EE's , 4 vindicates and 5 1st turn discard. I think thats enough to handle enchantments and artifacts at the least.

Im also thinking about replacing 1 inquisition for ravens crime if I push through with the 2 loams maindeck.

Question to some players... has anyone ever tested imp's mischief?its a misdirection for black...I was just curious.

JimmyC27

12-08-2010, 12:16 AM

Re: Dueling Grounds

Anyone tried Silent Arbiter in place of Dueling Grounds? I'm guessing Dueling Grounds is the better pick, but was just curious.

Cheers,

Jimmy

alphacat

12-08-2010, 01:39 AM

Re: Dueling Grounds

Anyone tried Silent Arbiter in place of Dueling Grounds? I'm guessing Dueling Grounds is the better pick, but was just curious.

Cheers,

Jimmy

Generally dueling grounds is used against creature heavy decks like Merfolk, Gob, Zoo, and VV. The disadvantage of SA against those decks are two folds, first, it's a creature, thus, can be removed with main deck removals such as swords, path, or burn. It is also 1 mana more expensive than DG, which makes it 1 turn late, and that could just be gg against a fast aggro deck.

JimmyC27

12-08-2010, 01:42 AM

@alphacat

Yeah, I figured the removal would be the big downer. The upside to the 4 cc is that it's colorless and not 1GW. I never feel manascrewed with this deck--but I don't run Wastelands.

@sdematt

On your list, you run 2x Path to Exile. How's that working? I currently run 2x Elspeth in that slot, but want to test 2x Path.

sdematt

12-08-2010, 01:53 AM

Arbiter costs 4, gets Plowed, etc. Dueling Grounds costs 3 and is much harder to remove. I don't see a real reason to run Arbiter (you're not using Welder/Survival to get/find him).

@ My 5 hour test sessions

So anyway, I playtested with a few guys for quite a few hours today, and it was good. I got in some games with Landstill and Rock, facing down 4C-Thresh, Vengevine (Bant Colours), Goblins, Merfolk, and Thopters.

Since you guys aren't Landstill players by trade (I play Landstill quite a bit when I'm not playing Rock), you're probably most interested in my notes from the games. Here goes:

Thopters:
Rock is very good against Thopers. Not really much to say here except blow up Counterbalance and don't let them Crucible-Wastelock you.

Merfolk:
These were some interesting matches. We didn't board in these games, but mainboard it was interesting. I found that discard was quite good against them, but we're decently vulnerable to Wastelands by them. Their counterspells can be a bit annoying, but they're not running a giant suite of them. I found our threat density rather lacking, and many times I had cleared the board but had no pressure. Add to that the fact that I never drew Dark Confidant or Top and you can see my frustration here. This fact may skew my results, but like I said, I was very threat-light in all the games I played. Acceleration such as Noble Hierarch and Mox Diamond really didn't seem to matter, as I just really wanted to play other things, not Hierarch (I'd rather do first turn disruption than build mana stability).

Overall, I found the matchup to be disfavourable as before. I'm thinking of turning my Hierarchs into something else, probably another land and either 2 creatures (Doran), or 1 Inquisition 1 Not sure yet. Still working on this.

Vengevine

This matchup was rather interesting. We played 5-6 preboard and 5-6 postboard. Preboard was slightly tough, as many times I thought I had the game and he managed to lucksack out of it. Example: I destroy his Survival and Swords two Vengevines. Then he proceeds to draw and hardcast the other 2 Vengevines off an empty hand (topdecked both) and proceeded to kill me. In 3 games, I drew Bog and wasn't able to tutor it up with Knight. Again, really bad luck here. In some cases, I really thought I had the game, but he then just drew another Survival and won. Slightly annoyed here.

In the postboard games, I was packing Extirpates and Dueling Grounds. I managed to Extirpates his Vines and won those games without issue, but on other games I drew into Bog or didn't draw any gas, and sat there as he beat me down with a Jitte on Wild Mongrel. Dueling Grounds was great, but I had no creatures in play and no Maze, so I got beat down by a singular flying Vengevine in one match.

In total, I lost the majority of games because I literally drew absolute crap. I'm pretty sure it was an off day for me and a good one for him, but still, it was very frustrating.

It's a very good deck, I've got to say. After doing this last round of testing, I'd say it's even a slightly disfavourable matchup, to be quite honest. Again, it could be because I drew absolutely nothing, but they can reset very quickly unless you remove their Vines. On the flipside, Landstill is the nuts against it. 4 Deeds absolutely ruins their day.

-------------------

A solid day of testing. The question is: how will our lists change if Survival gets banned?

Nice testing results. I always thought merfolks to be even to just slightly postive post board with my list. However I guess games are always dependent on draws. Survival however will always be survival and can win once they have the mana for it.

If you take of your acceleration (heirarchs or mox) you'll end up with a list similar to mine..ive gone to 5 1 cc discard.. and have 4 more slots open for debate. 2 of which I will retain as ghastly demise. the other 2 however will be creatures or loam.

If survival gets banned, I don't think the list would change much. Except fot sb choices. The deck was never built around beating survival anyway.

sdematt

12-08-2010, 02:38 AM

Possibly, but what would I take out? I don't really want to fill the gaps left by Noble Hierarch with 3-drops, to be honest.

We'll have to wait and see, though.

Also, just noticed you posted above me.

So far, this is what I think I'm going to change it to. I've added 1 Inquisition, 1 Land, and 1 Doran (just for fat)

I'm quite interested in a Stoneforge build, as I think the recursion/use of equipment could help out in the Tribal matchups (although its slow, having a Sword on the field turns Dark Confidant into a formidable blocker instead of just chumping, for example).

Edit 2: Just been doing some Workstation tinkering, and came up with this. It lacks some of the brute force of Vindicate, but plays more creatures and Equipment, so it has a bit more game against Tribal, me thinks. Of course, you could always change the Vindicates to maindeck Extirpates if you were feeling particularly vulnerable to VV. As well, the Swords could be changed to the Sword of Body and Mind, so you can produce chump blockers (the milling wouldn't matter at that point, since you've getting pro blue and pro green, and you're running Maindeck Extirpate)

I don't think the acceleration should be cut. In my opinion, Mox Diamond is what makes this deck competitive because of the 'broken' turn 1 and 2 plays. It's very easy for many blue decks to simply out-tempo you if your deck is clogged with 3-drops and no accel - the game will often end in a loss before you are able to unload all of your hand. The Mox Diamonds also help fix the somewhat bad manabase as well as give you a lot more game against combo. Because of its speed and ability to put a threat on the table while simultaneously playing discard, the PT Junk list is possibly the only discard-aggro list that storm players aren't happy to face.

Just my $0.02

sdematt

12-08-2010, 03:22 AM

Thing is, I've found when I tested 3 Mox Diamonds I wasn't hitting them often enough to make those "turn 1 Hymns" so often/special. I think running 8-10 pieces of mainboard discard in the main is enough of a pain for them. I understand where the acceleration can be good, but oftentimes I've found it really compromising: either I get stuck on a land and a Mox or have to pitch a land I don't want to, or I'd rather be playing something else other than Noble (Thoughtseize, etc.). I'll give it a try without, and we'll see.

-Matt

Rainbow Maker

12-08-2010, 03:30 AM

the reason why i might atleast test verdict over hymn is that i have been getting beaten up by no tommorow with wasteland. Yes it's nice to hymn because it's so powerful. but one wasteland can sometimes just wreck you. it's the only double black card in my list. I tried Doran and he was interesting. I'm having the same problem of slots i feel just don't have that much umph. I might try doran again as he would make goblins stupid easy.

i might start tinkering around with a mystic build; i used to play deadguy. I have got to the the thing that really made that deck good was the equipments. they are pure CA, along with mystic. It's just hard freeing uo slots

As a long time Survival player I'm looking for a new deck (obviously). I've played rock in extended, and I've played something that looks like rock survival. Basically I'd be swapping out my Survivals for Hymns ;) I have most cards, specifically the expensive ones (duals (though only a single scrubland), goyfs, a Karakas (although it's in my crap deck with Leyline of Singularity :D ), a maze (although it's in my EDH deck, a single mox diamond), 4 wastes) and most of the cheaper cards. I don't have Vindicates though, and I don't even like the card. Is Maelstrom Pulse such a subpar replacement?

zalachan

12-08-2010, 06:17 AM

I thing Pulse is good and all (for killing Iona), but i have trouble finding 1-2 for cheap and have 4 Vindicates allready. You have to try Vindicate before you dismiss it, it's essentially Pulse/Sinkhole split card. And i don't really like either of the two modes by themselves..

Shabbaman

12-08-2010, 07:22 AM

Interesting that you mention Sinkhole. I think I may undervalue the LD package of the deck.

Rainbow Maker

12-08-2010, 07:47 AM

It's really personal taste. I'm not a big fan of diamond. There are many options to try. in my limited testing stoneforge has proven her worth against The Fear

EDIT: test sinkhole but we alreayd have a LOT of 2 drops and vindicate is way more versatile

ZeinVoncy

12-08-2010, 11:07 AM

I found this a little bit interesting: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20712_Ideas_Unbound_The_Next_Evolution_in_Legacy_Beatdown.html

I totally disagree about a few changes to his list, but the main point of the subject is Lotus Cobra. What's everyone's thoughts? I'm considering trying him out, but I am unsure as to what to cut for it. I think it's more powerful in an aggro-Rock version, (I'm currently running a mid-range/control Rock) but I cannot dismiss it altogether.

I've already decided to cut 1 Desolation Angel for 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, so adding 3-4x Lotus Cobra would be even more difficult. I do not want to drop Mox Diamond as I like the random "nutty" T1 drops with it, or at least having the Noble Hierarch.

Perhaps S/B 2x Extirpate who knows what else, but I feel Lotus Cobra would add to the random "nutty" turns. It'd help out our BB for Hymns and dropping creatures more, but for how often people do not let Dark Confidant live or resolve, our hands would empty pretty quick. I'd love to fit in a Skeletal Scrying, but again, room is an issue, in this decks case, graveyard removal might be a bit of a stretch.

Thoughts?

@ Gerrard's Verdict
I've found the card lacking, unless my opponent is down to 2-3 cards, which in their case, most people would rather keep a Wasteland in their hand over discarding it. Hymn to Tourach is just all around better.

Tacosnape

12-08-2010, 11:38 AM

Lotus Cobra is awful. Seriously. There's almost no benefit of where to spend the mana. Once you've gotten the dude down, your prime time for disruption has already passed. And there's not a whole lot else for the deck to do with the mana. I suppose having your land drops activate Sensei's Divining Top would be nice, but that's not an excuse to play terrible creatures.

Part of the appeal of The Rock in Legacy right now is that it doesn't run any bad cards. Some of the lands might be a little janky in certain situations, sure, but the rest? It packs the most versatile and efficient cards humanly possible. To breakdown,

1. It packs the most efficient cost-for-size creature in Legacy, Tarmogoyf.
2. It packs a 2-drop that is very often game-ending if allowed to live for more than a couple turns, Dark Confidant.
3. It packs a 3-drop that is not only capable of out-sizing 90% of the format, but is also capable of crazy utility, Knight of the Reliquary.
4. It packs the two best discard spells in the format, Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach.
5. It packs the best creature removal and most versatile permanent removal in the game, Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate.
6. It packs the best mana denial card in the game, Wasteland.
7. It packs one of the most efficient, versatile, and hard to remove card filtration engines in Sensei's Divining Top.

And the remaining cards are still usually versatile and strong. AND, on top of this, a ton of the cards synergize very well.

Therefore, there's no room for creatures that don't really add a lot.

Usually I expect more from the Ideas Unbound column. But I guess part of the point of it is that he's always trying new things, and it's unreasonable to expect them all to be fantastic.

Charos

12-08-2010, 11:59 AM

...Is Maelstrom Pulse such a subpar replacement?

Pulse is nice and all, but it is subpar. You should treat it as Vindicate 5-8. I run only one and still get situations where 2 Goyfs are looking at each other and I draw Pulse. You will see these situations far more often than Ionas. Get Vindicates, they are good.

Rainbow Maker

12-08-2010, 12:00 PM

ya that's what i mainly do with verdict. ill add hymn eventually. i'm just tinkering around with some lists. because the problem with 2cc discard is that if you are playing a spell and not a creature you can't apply pressure. but if you play a creature it will likely be removed. It's a double edged sword. i think I might try steppe lynx for a bit. In old extended it was the best play. In legacy i'm sure it's almost as scary. also i would like to try dropped some 2 drops. i find the rock is saturated with 2's and sometimes 3 drops.

nedleeds

12-08-2010, 12:33 PM

I top 2 split the TCGPlayer Legacy Sunday event in Atlanta with the following Rock'ish deck.

The Doran's were KotR for a while but Knight is underwelming in many matchups. Doran is the modern age Juzam, and yes I've returned him with Karakas.

SpikeyMikey

12-08-2010, 12:33 PM

I call my list San Diego Rock simply because the 3 color aggro deck my old roomate and I created when Legacy split became known as "San Diego Zoo" (name courtesy of David Hernandez here). While I don't expect this deck to port over into Extended and Standard or define naming conventions for an entire archetype (RGW aggro w/ burn) the way SDZ did (Rock is pretty much already a standard name for the archteype, this list was also a work by Chris and myself, so I figured I'd stick with the SD moniker. The MD Extirpates (which are Chris' addition dating back to GP Chicago several years ago) more or less define our take on the Rock-style deck. Because the deck plays to the long game, even against decks that don't need massive GY hate (VV, Thopter, Dredge, Loam) they give you outs against cards that an opponent is likely to have multiples of that could swing games against you. For this reason, the deck runs Edict in addition to StP instead of PtE; sometimes you want a creature in the bin instead of RFG so that you can remove all copies of it and prevent an opponent from threatening you with it later. This is especially important against other threat-light decks that can match you card for card on removal and disruption, like UBG Landstill or the mirror.

I played with Sejiri Steppe in my listing for a while, but the number of times it was useful was minimal. Bog is strong enough to play despite it's CipT because even if I draw it, it's usually useful. Steppe is only useful as a draw if you need to Alpha strike; as Rock is less threat-dense than most decks, this is rarely applicable. You're rarely going to be racing anyone for damage, and if you are, not being able to swing with KotR is generally going to be bad. If KotR survives long enough to become active, it's because your opponent can't remove it anyway, so Steppe is just a win-more.

If Survival is banned, Rock as an archetype will go back to being a tier 2 strategy. Right now, fast Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk and Fast Affinity are suppressed by the presence of VV, which can outrace decks that can't disrupt it significantly and have no counters for SotF. Those fast aggro decks are the ones that Rock has the most problems with. We have superior cards to most decks, but we are vulnerable to non-CB tempo-based strategies. If VV is removed from the metagame in large #'s (the deck will still be viable and as powerful w/o SotF, but it will lose popularity) those decks will make a comeback and Rock will be poorly positioned against the field. At that point, there will be no competitive reason to play any Rock varient. Building an anti-aggro Rock will weaken other matchups, leaving us with reasonable game against everyrhing, but no favored or even matchups.

Rainbow Maker

12-08-2010, 02:24 PM

according to this (there isn't a whole lot of data to back it up to the fact that it isn't one of the most played decks) http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20629_Too_Much_Information_Legacy_Two_Months_of_Data.html

but the only decks i have been having a lot of trouble with are decks that have jace in them... i really need some help on those match ups
though

brianw712

12-08-2010, 02:26 PM

If Survival is banned, Rock as an archetype will go back to being a tier 2 strategy. Right now, fast Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk and Fast Affinity are suppressed by the presence of VV, which can outrace decks that can't disrupt it significantly and have no counters for SotF. Those fast aggro decks are the ones that Rock has the most problems with. We have superior cards to most decks, but we are vulnerable to non-CB tempo-based strategies. If VV is removed from the metagame in large #'s (the deck will still be viable and as powerful w/o SotF, but it will lose popularity) those decks will make a comeback and Rock will be poorly positioned against the field. At that point, there will be no competitive reason to play any Rock varient. Building an anti-aggro Rock will weaken other matchups, leaving us with reasonable game against everyrhing, but no favored or even matchups.

Unless you play Aggro Rock, in which case tribal and zoo matchups are actually favorable.

SpikeyMikey

12-08-2010, 03:29 PM

according to this (there isn't a whole lot of data to back it up to the fact that it isn't one of the most played decks) http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20629_Too_Much_Information_Legacy_Two_Months_of_Data.html

but the only decks i have been having a lot of trouble with are decks that have jace in them... i really need some help on those match ups
though

Jace decks tend to be threat light. UW less so than UGB Landstill, but I find Extirpate goes a long way here. If you can Thoughtseize or Vindicate a Jace, you can get rid of all of them. Same goes for Factory. But if you've got Extirpates in the board, I can see G1 being a little tough.

I have to disagree with you, Taco. I think Cobra merits consideration. It's played in every format except Legacy, which is usually a sign that a card is very good. One of the things (I won't say problem because we do well despite it) is that Rock has a very high curve. Generally, we're playing 1 spell a turn because we lack 1 drops and we're mana hungry with top and our 3 drops. You're rarely going to answer a threat AND drop a threat in the same turn. Cobra changes that. Drop a fetch on turn 4 and you can Vindicate and drop a KotR. Or you can have Hymn and 'goyf on turn 3. It changes the dynamic of games against other slow decks. However, it's an abysmal topdeck. But it opens the possibility of more expensive drops. I'm just not sure right now what we'd find useful. I don't see it being good at this point, but I do think it's worth brainstorming about.

sdematt

12-08-2010, 03:31 PM

I think Cobra deserves Merit, true. But, does it replace Mox Diamond/Noble Hierarch? Sure it adds mana every time you play a land, but if you're stuck for mana, then you're not playing lands, and Cobra isn't doing you much good. Again, I think it deserves a try.

-Matt

ZeinVoncy

12-08-2010, 03:50 PM

@ Tacosnape

I see your point of view and agree to a certain degree. I said that Cobra would add to the random factor of the deck being explosive. IE: drawing a mox in opening hand. It's a lot like Mox w/ the explosive factor after T1-T2, making it threat. Since we play kotr, we can get a good amount of mana per turn, and it's another threat. Granted it's as fragile as Bob, but threat none the less.

@Spikey
I see Cobra in more of an aggro version of rock, drop creatures faster and such. I feel that some brainstorming might be valid in this case for aggro rock. Drop your hand faster, take quick advantage and ugh smash febis!

Just a quick throw together and is off top of my head, maybe someone with MWS can test it out and let us know what the deal is. Personally, w/o Mox, I feel there would be too many conflicting T1-T2 drops until Cobra hit the field, then it's just empty hand. Not sure how I feel about Cobra's involvement yet.

gremsch

12-08-2010, 04:08 PM

Hi,

The following list split the final of a 236 players event in Paris last week end :

Lists available there : http://www.legacy-france.com/Classement-Listes-Rencontres-Legacy-de-Paris-t5187.html

Thanks for the cool primer, a great work that has spread out to France !

Au revoir

ZeinVoncy

12-08-2010, 04:18 PM

@ gremsch

That's great news! We're glad that the primer helped out!

How does Yixlid Jailer tech work against Vengevine? Does it shut down VV?

This is the second reference to that site that I've seen, too bad I cannot speak French.

gremsch

12-08-2010, 04:24 PM

Hey,

Unfortunately I wasn't piloting that deck, as I chose a hombrew BG Rock deck which didn't match this list...

The guy went 8 wins 1 draw during the rounds, won his way to the final and split due to late hour.

This Legacy-France site is held by the Legacy community in Paris, it shares a lot of reports from events all around France.

ZeinVoncy

12-08-2010, 04:44 PM

fair enough, thanks for the heads up. As the U.S. is currently flooded with Merfolk and Survival, its great to know that there are other decks doing well in the world, mayhap things will eventually spread out and the U.S. will adapt to diverse meta that Europe seems to be having.

I respect the fact that you went Classic Rock style, how did you place?

nedleeds

12-08-2010, 05:04 PM

Nice Yixlid Jailer tech in sideboard against Vengvine !

Nice until it gets Swords'ed. It is pretty effective vs. dredge though if you expect to see quite a bit of that. I think Macabre is also the better choice against Reanimator and other IGG shananigans.

Rainbow Maker

12-08-2010, 05:21 PM

Nice until it gets Swords'ed. It is pretty effective vs. dredge though if you expect to see quite a bit of that. I think Macabre is also the better choice against Reanimator and other IGG shananigans.

It is just something they need to answer. swords is a legitimate arguement. but it along with extirpate would go a long way.

The problem with discard is that usually if they are a smart player that knows how to use brainstorm, they will save it for your discard rather than just thinning their deck by 1 card at the eot because they can. it's much harder to kill jace then you would think. you just have to hope that they won't have a counter for vindicate.

SpikeyMikey

12-08-2010, 05:50 PM

I think Aggro Rock is the last place you'd want to stick Lotus Cobra. It'd be as bad as running it in Zoo. Your hand empties way too fast to make use of 5 to 6 mana a turn. It'd definitely be a card for the most controlling Rock lists. I could see cutting Pridemages out of my list for Cobras and replacing Elspeth with Sun Titan. Of course Titan would be a wicked badd flip off a blind Bob and Cobra is sĢill a terrible topdeck. But Vindicate or Waste every turn attached to a sizeable body? Could be tits...

f|i[p]

12-08-2010, 11:05 PM

@ Lotus Cobra
As for cobra, I don't think it would really help as much since its another acceleration piece that drops on the 2nd turn.What are you accelerating to?I guess this could be deck dependent, depending on builds...

But it shouldn't be shrugged off so easily. It could be tested however.

@Yixlid Jailer

Although Jailer stops vengevines from coming back from the grave, It doesn't stop iona.I'd still go for extirpate or faeri . Extirpate is wonderful against dredge as well as control decks.

@SpikeyMikey

I always loved Sun titan, but Sun titan only returns permanent cards unfortunately. So vindicates would not be an option for it..

Dzra

12-09-2010, 01:16 AM

Sun Titan with Pernicious Deed. Bwa ha ha! But really... I don't think there's enough room in Legacy Rock for Cobra. I ran a Rock list in Shards/Zendikar Standard that used Cobras. Basically I'd try to drop Cobra t2 and ramp into Baneslayers, Elspeths, and Identity Crisis by t3. It also ran 4 Birds.

Basically, I just don't see enough big spells to abuse with Cobra. The first problem would be what to cut for the Cobras. I don't think you'd want to drop the Mox Diamonds since t1 Hymn is still one of the most broken plays in the game. T1 Cobra wouldn't be a bad deal either, especially followed by a fetch on t2.

The next thing you'd have to figure out is if it's worth it to run Cobra without 5-6 cmc spells to ramp into. And if not, what would you add to abuse with Cobra and what could you cut for it?

ForlornEgoist

12-09-2010, 01:24 AM

The biggest issue I have with Cobra is that he isn't a threat himself. All he's good for is ramping INTO threats. And the problem with that is any threats we'd need to ramp into would also require extra acceleration since we couldn't rely soley on the Cobra to help us get there. So adding Cobra would require us to completely revamp the deck at which point it would become a jank Type 2 wannabe rather than a Competitive Rock build.

You also need to think about what we can even cut to fit the Cobra itself in, let alone stuff to ramp into. I myself had a joyous time trying to fit in 2-3 Tombstalker's (Yes, I run Stalker with Bob in addition to a bunch of 3cmc and no life gain, leave me alone :P).

Forlorn Egoist

sdematt

12-09-2010, 01:29 AM

Don't get me wrong, Tombstalker is the absolute nuts in Rock. Problem being is when you're playing Knight and Tarmogoyf, you're getting a bunch of dis-synergy at that point. I'm less concerned over blind revealing Tombstalkers than I am making my Goyfs and Knights useless. I think if you're running Stalker, you can't run Knight, or at least you can't run him as a threat.

I'm glad this thread is up to this many pages so quickly. Huzzah!

-Matt

ForlornEgoist

12-09-2010, 01:49 AM

Yeah, perhaps your right.

I haven't had much time to test the addition. I've been transitioning my black deck so much these past few months. It started out as MBA which I just loved, then once I added Bob I had to switch over to B/W because I needed the StP/Vindicate, then I splashed Green for Goyf because what deck doesn't splash him, then I inevitably went over to Horizons, so it's been a rough time for my deck (Don't worry Phyrexian Negator, one day I shall use you again!). What I may end up doing is running Vampire Nighthawk rather than Stalker. Yes, it's another 3 cmc, but it also helps offset the life-loss from Bob which I like, and I'm not too big a fan of the 12 creature base (for reference my B/W build before I transitioned to Horizon's was running 19-21 :O).

Forlorn Egoist

f|i[p]

12-09-2010, 04:29 AM

The thing about that Junk list is that, if I were actually going to run those... I would rather have mox Diamond in the lotus cobras spot..It can really accelerate yur threats and make use of those 1cc discard early on..

@ tombstalkers

Im scared to run those... I already have an even and a weird game against zoo and other fast decks , I don't want to worsen it by flipping a tombstalker.. Its a house however given that I didn't run 4 confidants..

SpikeyMikey

12-09-2010, 06:55 AM

Ah. Was driving around delivering pizzas, didn't really have access to Sun Titan text. Yeah, permanents 3 or less, that shoots that one right in the foot. Our best spells are instants and sorceries.

As far as what you're accelerating into with Lotus Cobra, it doesn't necessarily have to be a big threat. It could be as simple as being able to Vindicate and drop KotR in the same turn. We've got a wicked high curve for Legacy; almost entirely 2 and 3 drops. We don't have sometihng like CB that can be used to answer multiple threats in a turn. We're a 1 spell a turn deck and that's working for us, but maybe being a 2 spell a turn deck would be beneficial.

AggroSteve

12-09-2010, 06:56 AM

hmm i think i will try quasali in my list, since now i have seen that the a list similar to the one i have been thinking about did place very well

@ spikey mikey: if survival would be banned i could see doran coming back in our deck, simply because he is good in goblin and affinity matchup, basically shrinking their biggest offensive power (piledriver, and cranial plating)

Rainbow Maker

12-09-2010, 08:25 AM

so. i decided to try a more loam oriented list because control is a nightmare. The mana base is horrid and needs lots a work. Besides that it's posting pretty decent results in the few games i've played. The main list is kind of iffy, but here it is.

The one thing though is i think this list would be better without white maybe. as you would have a less iffy manabase and you would only loose knight sword and vindicate.

SpikeyMikey

12-09-2010, 12:16 PM

so. i decided to try a more loam oriented list because control is a nightmare. The mana base is horrid and needs lots a work. Besides that it's posting pretty decent results in the few games i've played. The main list is kind of iffy, but here it is.

The one thing though is i think this list would be better without white maybe. as you would have a less iffy manabase and you would only loose knight sword and vindicate.

You're packing 8 (!) lands that don't tap for color plus Maze of Ith. You don't have Hymn so you don't need turn 2 BB, but you need GG for Witness. I've found that I generally need white early more than green, making fetching a difficult proposition. In short, the mana looks atrocious. Landstill is going to be packing Wastes. It just seems weak against the archetype you're hoping to beat. If you're really gunning for slow control, I would say go 3-4 Extirpate and put the Hymns back in. The way to beat control is to remove their threats, as they're adept at dealing with creatures. Elspeth is also good against them as UGB has nothing to deal with a resolved Elspeth and U/W has a single O-Ring or their own Elspeth. Maybe something like my listing with Hymns where I have Pridemage and cut Deed for a 4th Hymn and a 4th Vindicate or a second Elspeth.

Also, I find that Cold-Eyed Selkie really shines for me against Landstill. It gives me extra Bobs, allowing me to go 1-for-1 with them on cards and still come up ahead. Their removal is really stretched against Bob, KotR and Selkie, and unless they can drop and protect Humility, any one of those will be their ass. Save Wastelands for important targets like Academy Ruins and (in G2) Factory. Shut down their CA and threats and just grind through the counters and removal.

Rainbow Maker

12-09-2010, 12:32 PM

I'm just trying this list out. I really don't know where i want to go with this list. hymn is good. i tested it, i just never really liked how you're supposed to be playing aggro in most match ups yet you waste one of the most important turns. hymn is good, but it usually doesn't seem all that stellar. most times i would rather have a resolved duress. Yes hymn is CA and it CAN destroy someones manabase for the game. But the times that happens... are rare. Also when i always had to open up with bayou + scrubland so t3 i could dropa pridemage. It would be ok if i was using diamonds

Really the only decks i'm hoping to beat are control. MOST aggro, tribal and such are very easy. I actually tried a selkie mainboarded when i was running hierarch and pridemage. I really liked it. In my experience the best thing to do early on of course is extirpate fow. In my testing with elspeth... i hated her. She always seemed like more a a win more/loose more card. It is a ridiculous card, i just didn't like it in this deck as a 1 of.

Their main CA is just planeswalkers and standstill, i guess some lists do run teferi's response too. most lists of rock run elspeth as a 1 of(at most) so you shouldn't rely on just your elspeth to save the day. The reason why we have a crap match up against control is mainly just because of our curve.

Oh ya... It's the fear is a pain. That is just tons of fun without extirpate.

another edit. The reason why i chose therapy over hymn in that list was a t1 discard with a t2 therapy then activate a factory and sac it was such a stupid amazing play.

sdematt

12-09-2010, 04:38 PM

To beat Landstill, you have to disrupt them early with hand disruption and land destruction. If they can't get to 3+ mana, they're not going anywhere. They only have so many free counters (4), and they never draw them all at the same time or in succession. The trick to beating Landstill is not playing the control game; they've got you beat at playing control. You need to play the aggro game, which a times they can have trouble stopping. T1 Duress T2 Hymn T3 Vindicate is devastating, as is any combination of discard + threat early on, that's why Goblins are a huge trouble (no hand disruption, but just too many things to counter so early on).

-Matt

Linkin Pac

12-09-2010, 07:50 PM

Hello Sourcers,

Despite cashing out my Goyfs, Tropical Islands and Forces from my UGW Natural Order Countertop deck, I have decided to keep my Natural Orders since I feel that NO/Progenitus is still one of the easiest and most broken Legacy combos. It really is close to the green Tinker of Legacy, and is great because it simply wins games against the vast amounts of rogue decks that appear at some of my local tournaments. Thus, while blue's counters and Brainstorm are probably the best supplements to the NO/Progenitus combo, I think that black would come in a close second with the combo, since its discard can pre-emptively get rid of any hate.

I apologize if this deck is not Rock-like enough, since it's main purpose is to pull off the Natural Order and win. It does make use of some of green's most effective utility creatures and black's powerful one mana discard disruption. I saw that NO/Prog is mentioned near the start of the thread, but is not really mentioned much afterward. The list that I've started:

Please let me know what you think of this list, and what you would change if you were to play it. I am considering swapping Ohran Vipers for the Kitchen Finks, even though the Finks are probably more useful in a wider variety of situations. The four tops seem like a necessity for a deck with very little card draw. The Smothers can probably be adjusted to whatever, but I prefer them since there are several aggro decks in my meta.

And lastly, does this deck have much of a chance against Merfolk? Because I am almost certain that there will be Merfolk at my next tourney. The idea is to push through the counters with the large amounts of discard to get one Natural Order to resolve, using the 3 mana guys as chump blockers in the meantime. But as always, beating the fish is easier said than done. Not to mention, the deck makes use of non-basics, so relying on them could be a liability.

sdematt

12-09-2010, 09:52 PM

If you blow shit up and play BGW, or some combination thereof, you're playing Rock. No worries my friend, welcome to the thread!

I'm not sure if 4 Eternal Witness are good enough here. Recursion is good, don't get me wrong, but I think 2 would be sufficient. I agree with 4 Birds, Blossoms, and Finks. Wickerborough as a one-of seems out of place, and I think you ca probably play 3 Natural Orders. You may also want to go into white for Swords, Knight of the Reliquary (allows you to fetch Dryad Arbor) and other sideboard slots. Many of your "4-of's" aren't actually needed as a 4-of. Multiple Tops usually are bad, for example. All in all, I'm loving your list :cool:. I'm thinking along the lines of:

I played NO Rock for a while; it is amazingly positioned in an aggro metagame; walls + finks + recursion just slows them down incredibly

Wall of Roots is actually MVP in this deck - it blocks like a champ, accelerates you like crazy (remember you can use it on their turn if you need to), and is a critter for NO at the same time. It also works wonders at pulling your spells out of Daze range; alot of players will (surprisingly) forget that he makes mana. They definitely go in over Wall of Blossoms. The 5 toughness can also be relevant vs fast goyfs from Zoo and the like.

I wouldn't worry too much about opposing counter magic if I were you; Thoughtseize + Therapy can solve almost every problem preemtively, and there is very little chance you NO is going to get countered by CB. Favourite play: T1 TS, T2 birds, Therapy; at this point you can sac it if you need to get rid of something else but they should be hand-raped by then. T3 NO and life is great :)

Finks is great in this deck too; they just clog shit up on the ground and generally make life pretty hard for aggro, not to mention they are great fodder for Therapy. They can also beat well in a pinch. I agree that Witness numbers could be shaved down, 2 is enough IMO, as are 3 Tops

Consider (ie PLEASE DO) running white for Swords; it is just the best removal in legacy and the fetches are already on-colour as it is

Good luck!

Dzra

12-09-2010, 11:10 PM

I like the idea of Cold-Eyed Selkie a lot in my board as a possible replacement for Choke. It serves a very different purpose obviously, but it seems like I would be able to use it against a lot more decks. Choke punishes a deck for using a lot of Islands, but Selkie punishes a deck for running any Islands at all.

JCLe

12-10-2010, 12:04 PM

If you blow shit up and play BGW, or some combination thereof, you're playing Rock. No worries my friend, welcome to the thread!

I'm not sure if 4 Eternal Witness are good enough here. Recursion is good, don't get me wrong, but I think 2 would be sufficient. I agree with 4 Birds, Blossoms, and Finks. Wickerborough as a one-of seems out of place, and I think you ca probably play 3 Natural Orders. You may also want to go into white for Swords, Knight of the Reliquary (allows you to fetch Dryad Arbor) and other sideboard slots. Many of your "4-of's" aren't actually needed as a 4-of. Multiple Tops usually are bad, for example. All in all, I'm loving your list :cool:. I'm thinking along the lines of:

I wouldn't play eternal witness over say, grim discovery here, the downside would be that you don't run wastelands but getting back a fetch or a wastelanded land of your own is extremely good, for (1)B.

Sure, grim doesn't give you a body per say, but it makes 2 landers with a fetch keepable, and gets a land that you threw to mox diamond back too, etc. as well as making the finks plan vs aggro a lot better.

ZeinVoncy

12-10-2010, 12:14 PM

@ JCLe
Grim Discovery just is not that good here. For recurring lands, either use Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam.
As to recurring a dude, we already run Volrath's Stronghold. Which is tutorable through Knight of the Reliquary.
If that wasn't enough, Eternal Witness gives you option of any card in your graveyard. Grim Discovery would just end up taking the spot of something else we would want more then to recur something.
That's just my opinion though.

*Edit
In consideration for a S/B option, what does everyone think about having 2x Linvala, Keeper of Silence. I mean, it'd shut a ton of cards down, including Ooze combo, correct? Thoughts?

sdematt

12-10-2010, 12:27 PM

I totally get where you're coming from. In many decks, Grim Discovery is very good (I play it in Dark Depths). Here, I'm using Eternal Witness to bring back Swords, Natural Orders, and possibly the odd creature or two. Here, it's also another body to sacrifice to Natural Order, so I don't want to cut down my numbers too badly. Not saying cutting two E.Wit will ruin any plans of pulling off Natural Order, just I like to improve my chances.

Also, question: If you Cabal Therapy yourself to get Progenitus out of your hand, do you have to reveal your hand to your opponent, or just to yourself?

-Matt

brianw712

12-10-2010, 01:08 PM

Also, question: If you Cabal Therapy yourself to get Progenitus out of your hand, do you have to reveal your hand to your opponent, or just to yourself?

To your opponent. Otherwise, there would be no way for the opponent to know if you discarded all copies of Progenitus or not.

Rainbow Maker

12-10-2010, 01:54 PM

so my list looks like

About the manabase i'm having some of the lands besides these
3 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
3 marsh flats
3 verdant catacombs (I'm working on getting 2 heaths)
2 scrublands
1 bayou
2 plains
2 swamp
2 forest
(initially my thought is to cut a plains for a wasteland. If i can get one)

4 thoughtseize
2 extirpate
3 tops
4 swords

4 goyf
4 knight
4 bob
2 pridemage
1 jitt

4 vindicate
4 knights
2 Doran(likely will be cut. Maybe Witness or perhaps a jitte and another wasteland.

Yes, Targeted discard becomes public information.

sdematt

12-10-2010, 03:01 PM

I thought it did. I remember this happening with a match against Dredge when he targeted himself and didn't show me his hand. I wasn't really paying attention enough to care anyways, and only thought of it after, and this brought it back up again. Good to know.

You have knights listed twice on there, I think you mean 4 Goyf 4 Knight. Doran is still a beast a 5/5, so don't discount him. I think two is the max on him, though. Right now I'm trying a 1/1 Doran/Witness split.

-Matt

Dzra

12-10-2010, 03:05 PM

I don't really get the appeal of Natural Order. A different colored deck would be able to protect it so much better. BUG or GWU for example. Sure it can be a surprise win, but it's way too clunky. It's 4cmc double green, we only run 8-12 green creatures, and we have no ways to force a resolve or protect Progenitus once it resolves. Our gameplan is disrupt + efficient creatures. NO is SB material at best.

ZeinVoncy

12-10-2010, 03:11 PM

@ NO PRO package

It's something that could really be put into any archtype that uses green to a certain degree. I'm not a personal fan of it, but it's an option. Kind of like if we wanted, we could pull off Vampire Hexmage + Dark Depths package since we can tutor up Dark Depths with Knight.

Rainbow Maker

12-10-2010, 03:37 PM

put hexmage isn't bad by itself. it can knock out planeswalkers, reset things like ee, smokestack, jitte. No on the other hand seems only good with a creature.I don't like when non blue decks try to do "sneaky" things like NO. It's different in elves because they just have a lot of protection for things like NO. @ doran. I think i will drop 1 and add a witness, i think i might also try to either fit in a karakas or maybe a stronghold. Karakas is crazy cool with doran... If the karaks is on your side of the table. It also helps in several of our matchups. however i don't think it's worth me spending like 30 dollars on it. i feel the card is just ok.

SpikeyMikey

12-10-2010, 04:12 PM

@ JCLe
Grim Discovery just is not that good here. For recurring lands, either use Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam.
As to recurring a dude, we already run Volrath's Stronghold. Which is tutorable through Knight of the Reliquary.
If that wasn't enough, Eternal Witness gives you option of any card in your graveyard. Grim Discovery would just end up taking the spot of something else we would want more then to recur something.
That's just my opinion though.

*Edit
In consideration for a S/B option, what does everyone think about having 2x Linvala, Keeper of Silence. I mean, it'd shut a ton of cards down, including Ooze combo, correct? Thoughts?

A resolved Linvala wrecks Ooze. It not only shuts down Ooze but also Fauna Shaman, Birds, Hierarch and Quirion Ranger. In short it rapes their mana and shuts down 1/2 of their Survival effects. If it cost 2 mana, it'd be an auto 4-of. At 4 mana and double white? Too little too late. If you had more disruption like Leonin Arbiter or Suppression Field which came down on T2 and used Linvala to seal it, that'd work, but it'd require a lot of building around.

Rainbow Maker

12-10-2010, 07:04 PM

what do you guys think about adding perhaps 1 or 2 jotun grunts. Yes he CAN shrink knight and goyf. But since we have relatively few threats it could be nice. recycling threats is never a bad thing either

f|i[p]

12-11-2010, 12:11 AM

Jotun grunt might be useful recycling threats and wastelands.. but in the end, you wouldn't want a creature who dies to itself. And even with tons of cards in the graveyard, you also don't want to make your knight smaller....

In thinking so.. anyone ever tried to put maybe 2 hexmage and a single dark depths in here?

alphacat

12-11-2010, 03:06 AM

I was reading the meta breakdown at World's, and I noticed that Rock is referred to as 'Junk':

Is there a reason why Rock, a pretty established archetype, goes by a number of names depending on the tourney report? In SCG, it's called Dark Horizon from time to time, and to Wizards, it's Junk (why is it called Junk anyway?)

sdematt

12-11-2010, 03:14 AM

SCG is stupid because it started to appear when New Horizons was still popular, and both decks played Knight of the Reliquary, so since we also played black, it was named Dark Horizons.

As for Junk, I believe that's a name that's been used in the past. It goes by many names (even by SCG): Junk, Rock, BWG Rock, Dark Horizons, etc. They're all one and the same :cool:

-Matt

Rainbow Maker

12-11-2010, 04:54 AM

Right now i'm just coming up with ideas of cards. Yes the list is solid. Most of my ideas will be stupid, but every once in a while it will be a good one. :) I think i love grunt was because i used to play deadguy ale. He was stupid good in that deck. Junk was used a lot when doran, deed, vindicate etc were all legal in extended. This deck also was sometimes called tarmofolk. Matt you tried the old lists with birds and such with a bunch of witnesses and therapy. How did you like it? O but also there are some general lists that are given to certain rock builds.

Bad news... Survival was 24% of the field and only got 2 of the top 8 slots.

alphacat

12-11-2010, 08:51 AM

SCG is stupid because it started to appear when New Horizons was still popular, and both decks played Knight of the Reliquary, so since we also played black, it was named Dark Horizons.

As for Junk, I believe that's a name that's been used in the past. It goes by many names (even by SCG): Junk, Rock, BWG Rock, Dark Horizons, etc. They're all one and the same :cool:

-Matt

I just find the name Junk to be somewhat rude. We play some of the best creatures ever, and that's called Junk? ~.~

ZeinVoncy

12-11-2010, 10:21 AM

@ Junk

I call the deck Junk. IDK, I sort've like it. When the three colored names started coming out, Bant, Jund, Naya, etc, Junk was also developed for BWG. When I hear Rock, I think of Classic Rocks colors, B/G.
When ppl ask what I'm playing, I generally say "Just a pile of Junk" and then proceed to whoop ass. I find it fun :D

as to Dark Horizons, New Horizons plays Horizon Canopy and has a lot of disruption. Dark Horizons also plays Horizon Canopy but plays a lot of destruction. It's kind of saying, I play Bant Aggro, or I play NO Pro Bant. difference, a new package is added to the decktype and a name to represent that change is present. Same for for Rock, Dark Horizons, Junk. (BWG Rock would be for the older players, like myself, who think of Rock as B/G)

@ Jotun Grunt
Sure it's not bad, but totally against what Rock is trying to do, fill the graveyards. To provide aggressive beats, we need our 2 best creatures to apply pressure. Jotun Grunts turn our pressure beaters in a minor nuisance. We have enough targeting graveyard hate to not need the grunt. Again, just my 2 cents.

@ Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage package

I personally have not, Dark Depths is a still an overpriced card imo, so I haven't bothered. It seems to have been an experimental thing in Europe as I saw two Rock decks place in the top 8 of a tournament over there using using this idea. I figured I could at least mention it.

Rainbow Maker

12-11-2010, 01:27 PM

Rock seem's bad on paper... But it really is pretty good once you test it. Yes it CAN shrink goyf or knight, but after turn or so like 15 there are quite a few cards in both yards. I think you guys are right. It just isn't powerful enough to replace something like witness.

I do agree with Zein wholeheartedly. I really don't like DD. We have big creatures. Yes hexmage is good by itself, but it is outclassed by bob and goyf in everyway. also that's one utility land that you can't use anymore due to DD. And it isn't worth it to add urborg

sdematt

12-11-2010, 03:18 PM

Junk could also just be for the irony factor: We play the best of everything, so we'll just call it "Junk."

:cool:

-Matt

ZeinVoncy

12-11-2010, 05:09 PM

Junk could also just be for the irony factor: We play the best of everything, so we'll just call it "Junk."

:cool:

-Matt

As I read this, I wonder: what would make this decktype a Deck to Beat? We place just as well, if not better, then Merfolk and Zoo. The decktype is played more often then Zoo, right under Merfolk and TES. Or are Decks to Beat decktypes that need to place 1st more then once a month?

sdematt

12-11-2010, 06:33 PM

I think it's because it's not played ENOUGH. I think if nothing changes with the B/R list, and we go into another SCG event with at least another Top 8, I'll get a request in to move this to DTB. I'm pretty sure Zoo's still in there, even though it hasn't done jack in months, and neither has Merfolk (well, some, but not like before VV).

-Matt

ZeinVoncy

12-11-2010, 08:05 PM

Just out of curiosity, why is Maze of Ith considered to be so abusive with Knight of the Reliquary? You cannot attack, deal damage, and then untap him to use his ability. At least, not according to the Oracle text.

Oracle Text: Tap: Untap target attacking creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn.

If damage is dealt, he wouldn't be considered an attacking creature post damage would he?

@ sdematt

how is it not played enough? According to the last 2 reports put out from SCG and a few European tournments, Rock is 3rd ranked played deck. Survival based being #1, Merfolk being #2, of which, it's just as good placings as Merfolk.

Nidd

12-11-2010, 09:04 PM

Just out of curiosity, why is Maze of Ith considered to be so abusive with Knight of the Reliquary? You cannot attack, deal damage, and then untap him to use his ability. At least, not according to the Oracle text.

Oracle Text: Tap: Untap target attacking creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn.

If damage is dealt, he wouldn't be considered an attacking creature post damage would he?
After the damage is dealt, creatures are still considered attacking until the phase ends.

sdematt

12-11-2010, 09:45 PM

I don't know, there's only 1% or something of the metagame that is playing Rock, so I'm not sure. I could ask, but I'd like to see whether Survival gets banned or not before I ask to get moved to DTB.

@ Maze:

After damage, there's an "End of Combat" phase, where "until end of combat" things stop, but you can untap after having dealt damage.

-Matt

Dzra

12-12-2010, 01:29 AM

I've been playing this deck for a while now and I've been thinking about keepable hands. What would you consider a keepable hand? Obviously an optimal hand would look something like 2-3 land, 0-1 mox, 1-2 disruption, 1-2 removal, 1-2 creatures, and a Top is always nice. Give or take and obviously depending on what you were facing.

The thing I've been noticing lately is that I've been keeping hands that are perhaps decent, but just aren't cutting it. I've found that keeping a four land hand usually means I get completely mana flooded the rest of the game. I've also been noticing that hands without t1 or t2 disruption don't cut it when my opponent is on his game. Early discard in particular is starting very important, maybe essential, to this deck's strategy.

So, what kinds of hands do you keep and throw back? 4 lands, 3 creatures? 2 lands, 2 dudes, 1 Top, 2 Swords? Wasteland, Dual, double Hymn, Creature, 2 Vindicate? Etc... I play tight, I SB well, and I tune the shit out of my decks, but I feel where I'm most lacking is when and when not to mulligan. Thanks for any input.

I am having trouble with the mulls. Not what to keep and throwback, but more that the mulls are just hard because i don't play mox I can be off my colors. But i can see having just as much of a problem with getting 2 mox. Also with double black or g/w needed on t2 the lands can really punish you if you try and gamble.

ZeinVoncy

12-12-2010, 09:52 AM

@ Mulligans

I generally work with what I have b/c going down that 1 card hinders us a lot. I'll generally keep two land hands, I generally have at least 1-2 creatures, a mox, and then answers. I honestly only get Sensei's Divining Top maybe half my games, I have yet to see an Elsepth, and I do not draw Maelstrom Pulse as often as I'd like. (I generally play against my friends Zoo or Legacy Jund).

As to discard, I may or may not get it in my opening hand half of the time, I really do feel like I'm behind in the game when drawing them late. I'm actually considering dropping some type of disruption for Sinkhole. But that's a bold move and something I'll have to think about for a bit.

makochman

12-12-2010, 10:57 AM

As to discard, I may or may not get it in my opening hand half of the time, I really do feel like I'm behind in the game when drawing them late. I'm actually considering dropping some type of disruption for Sinkhole. But that's a bold move and something I'll have to think about for a bit.

I believe Anwar Ahmad's analysis of the card is spot on:

The biggest problem with Sinkhole is that the format as a whole has become much faster. Most decks will shrug off a turn 2 land destruction spell and continue with their gameplan. Aggressive decks like Zoo may welcome a full turn spent destroying a land while they continue to play threats. Merfolk can evade Sinkhole's effect by playing Aether Vial. Most modern combo decks needs very few lands to operate, and Sinkhole is very close to a dead draw against them. Sinkhole is stronger against control decks, but it is often not enough to prevent the landing of a Counterbalance or a Standstill. It has been a staple of many successful Legacy Suicide decks, but it is not as potent a weapon as it once was.

i think the thoughtseize is on par with inquisition. I think it's more about personal taste. Yes seize is better against control gets jace, elspeth, fow etc. But 2 life is a lot more than you would think. The problem with discard is it's really only useful in the first few turns against most decks. So for that reason you run a good amount to make sure you see it. But they turn into dead draws. It's a catch 22.

Also i've been having trouble testing(not having a whole lot of time) Has anyone tested jitte? if they have do they like it more than elspeth? or maybe in conjunction with elsepth. I'm running 16 creatures( 2 of which are witnesses)

Justin

12-12-2010, 01:33 PM

I believe Anwar Ahmad's analysis of the card is spot on:

The biggest problem with Sinkhole is that the format as a whole has become much faster. Most decks will shrug off a turn 2 land destruction spell and continue with their gameplan. Aggressive decks like Zoo may welcome a full turn spent destroying a land while they continue to play threats. Merfolk can evade Sinkhole's effect by playing Aether Vial. Most modern combo decks needs very few lands to operate, and Sinkhole is very close to a dead draw against them. Sinkhole is stronger against control decks, but it is often not enough to prevent the landing of a Counterbalance or a Standstill. It has been a staple of many successful Legacy Suicide decks, but it is not as potent a weapon as it once was.

Sinkhole is also weak in a format with a lot of Daze. If you target an island (basic or nonbasic) they can counter the sinkhole even if you have the mana to pay, because they just return said island to their hand. Of course, you can try to target their non-island lands, but this is limiting your options and you may not always have that choice.

ZeinVoncy

12-12-2010, 01:46 PM

@ Sinkhole

Yeah, I have that notion in mind as well, but I find myself targeting lands more then creatures w/ Vindicate and such. I play a decent Zoo setup and after 2-3 turns of LD, even they start feeling the pressure b/c I have so many answers to their critters otherwise. It'd take some playtesting, but the idea isn't all that bad. Aether Vial we also respond to like normal, blow the damn thing up.

@ Umezawa's Jitte

I used that for awhile as well. Along with Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Light and Shadow, the selection is great ONCE it hits the field. Jitte is nice once you get going, but I found that once your threats get going, the Jitte is not needed. Yes its nice and own the field, but if you have no creature, it's just taking up room. I've dropped 2x of them and haven't looked back.

@ Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Still trying her out, I love the idea but while only running one copy, I have yet to play/draw her. Keeping her in b/c I feel she can change the game.

Rainbow Maker

12-12-2010, 04:00 PM

Thanks. I was thinking the same thing about jitte. I wanted just to have my thoughts confirmed. Elspeth seems good especially with witness

Charos

12-13-2010, 11:35 AM

Elspeth is seriously underplayed in this deck.
T1: Thoughtseize or Top
T2: Bob, Goyf or Qasali
T3: Vindicate, or Hymn+Swords, or Knight
T4: Eslpeth, swing for 5-10 flying damage.
Game is pretty much over.

Sinkhole is nice in a deck that has Dark Ritual, which is not BWG Rock.

Rainbow Maker

12-13-2010, 02:57 PM

I think i would rather t2 hymn. since it's random it doesn't matter what they have in their hand. You can always hit a swords that would be targeted at your Bob, goyf or qasali. but i guess it depends what theyre playing and the information from seize, adn you hand.

nedleeds

12-14-2010, 11:40 AM

Elspeth is seriously underplayed in this deck.
T1: Thoughtseize or Top
T2: Bob, Goyf or Qasali
T3: Vindicate, or Hymn+Swords, or Knight
T4: Eslpeth, swing for 5-10 flying damage.
Game is pretty much over.

Sinkhole is nice in a deck that has Dark Ritual, which is not BWG Rock.

Sinkhole is as much rock as a double white card like Elspeth. Elspeth is fine but I think you slant the deck more towards white then (which is fine).

ZeinVoncy

12-14-2010, 12:35 PM

I don't think we slant the deck in any direction. We've adapted to White quite naturally, just b/c we added a singular copy of a card that requires WW does not mean we are slanting. We use BB for Hynms, but that doesn't mean we are slanting towards Black. We use all the the colors equally I'd say. If anything, no Green of ours requires GG. (sudden urge to Biorhythm!) :laugh:

Forum has gone quiet lately, anyone have any playtesting results? Or are we waiting to hear the verdict on Survival of the Fittest?

sdematt

12-14-2010, 05:19 PM

I'm waiting to write a final exam right now, and I tihnk a bunch of people are as well. Right now, I'm waiting on the word if Survival is banned or not. If it is, I think we have to get faster or improve the tribal matchup. If VV gets banned (in my dreams), we pretty much stay the same. If Mystical gets unbanned, We move to more Diabolic Edicts, Leyline in the board, and some Extirpates in the main. Again, I believe we become the Reanimator trump.

-Matt

Dzra

12-14-2010, 08:10 PM

I'm pretty comfortable in the current meta. Every now and then I just tweak my SB a bit.

ZZZ

12-15-2010, 04:49 AM

Forum has gone quiet lately, anyone have any playtesting results? Or are we waiting to hear the verdict on Survival of the Fittest?

I have been trying out the stock Brad Nelson list with -2 Gerrard's Verdict and +1 Deed (2 main) + 1 Elspeth against decks which will probably be played more again if Survival gets the axe (mostly Merfolk and Zoo). I haven't been able to get many games in but I've been pretty happy with the list so far (I've been beating Merfolk quite consistently), my first impression is that we do not have to make many changes to the lists. I have been very happy with Deed in the matches I played so far.
The sideboard can probably change quite a bit. I'm currently running a small E-tutor board, haven't been able to test it a lot but I can say that Dueling Grounds is still very much worth it.

FieryBalrog

12-15-2010, 07:11 AM

That makes sense because this deck is not particularly amazing vs Vengevival decks, but it's decent against the rest of the field.

sdematt

12-15-2010, 10:06 AM

Um, what?

If you're looking at results, it's better than most decks against it. It's a harder matchup, but you've got many tools to help you out where most decks don't. You've got Extirpate, Swords/Path, Leyline of the Void,, Bojuka Bog, Vindicate, Early Disruption...basically the things you need to trump Vengevine.

-Matt

Rainbow Maker

12-15-2010, 10:45 AM

So I remember back in teh day running command with doran. I think a lot of your card choices are personal taste as opposed to being better or worse.

Deed
+ it can clear the board if you're behind
+ it's a permanent so you can blow it up whenever
+ Not that easy to remove
+ hits manlands
- Not a nice bob flip
- higher on the curve, curve is high if you don't run diamonds

Ee
+ can hit planeswalkers
+ Can be Cheaper to cast and blow up
+ Can be better than deed at times
+ nice bob flip
- can't hit manlands

Elspeth
+ very hard to remove
+ is pure CA
+ can give a creature giant growth and jump, and when you have big creatures... That is good.
+ Generates more threats
+ has to be dealt with if the opponent want's to win
+ultimate ability is good
-Horrible bob flip
- Sometimes double white is hard to get

Profane command
+ is the most flexible out of any of the above
+ generates CA
+combos amazingly with witness
+/- OK to flip with bob

I don't know what this accomplishes. But I think i might try to test command as it seems good on paper

ZeinVoncy

12-15-2010, 11:10 AM

Profane command
+ is the most flexible out of any of the above
+ generates CA
+combos amazingly with witness
+/- OK to flip with bob

I don't know what this accomplishes. But I think i might try to test command as it seems good on paper

Doesn't change the entire game unlike the other cards, which can change the tides considerably. I do not see this card as being "good enough" for Legacy Rock. Perhaps it has a spot in Doran Extended, but we have better cards. The best use of this card would be -X/-X, which the card your cutting for Command would probably be better.
Test it and let us know, but I'd say of a hit or dis, it's a dis.

damionblackgear

12-15-2010, 11:13 AM

If survival gets banned we get a few things:

1) Tribal Aggro decks will pickup.
2) New Horizons will return in force

I don't know about you but the first I'm more than happy to deal with. I mean seriously, has anyone looked into alternatives to these decks? Older Rock Decks used things like Wall of Blossoms to help beat the faster aggressive decks. I think Wall has returned to being a viable option as we can usually limit their creature counts to 1 or 2. The inclusion of Maze of Ith also helps with this as well. I've had fun ripping a lot of different Zoo varieants apart by just adding a couple Wall of Omens (doesn't die to perish) to the board. Adding a little life-gain mainboard wouldn't hurt.

The second can be a beating. because of the way we're designed, New Horizons can be a solution to our deck with them having a mediocre draw. It would force us to work on fixing the most fragile part of the deck, the manabase. Even if you look at the posts above the main argument against some cards is that they cost double of a color. Our deck doesn't like having lands destroyed.

Honestly, I hope they un-ban Mystical. We get 2 decks back into the format (Reanimator and AnT). One of which, we can deal with. The other is a bad matchup. The outcome though would be something that would force the other decks of the format to adjust into a meta that we've already set for, although, there will be some changes made.

I'm still in support of Leylines in the board regardless of which monster runs 1.5. We run discard and kill. Are you seriously that worried about hitting all of one card? Make them draw another one and get rid of the reason they want it gone.

sdematt

12-15-2010, 12:22 PM

New Horizons, you're right, isn't a great matchup. Killing lands is bad, but I think since we've moved the discard element up, we may have a leg up. Plus, even if they do land giant.threat, we have a ton of removal for it (again, not everything gets countered every time, boys and girls).

Right now, I'm just waiting to see where the metagame goes. The best thing for this deck would be no change to the B/R. I'd be good with that, or unbanning Mystical. Running a shit ton of discard + more gravehate gives us a better chance against old ANT and Reanimator.

-Matt

Rainbow Maker

12-15-2010, 12:33 PM

The problem is i really don't know what i want to do with my deck. I think that's why i keep on coming up with random ideas. It's rather annoying. I think i might try mox diamond again. Or atleast try ee or deed main. But then the problem with ee is without mox it's stuck atmost at 3

SpikeyMikey

12-15-2010, 06:22 PM

NH doesn't bother me at all. They have more fat beaters than I do, but I have the trump card of Bojuka Bog and with 23 lands (not including Maze) and only 7 of those fetches, I actually feel that my mana is stable enough. Granted, when I tested it originally I had a full compliment of basics whereas now I have a Horizon Canopy instead of a Forest, but Waste + Extirpate is a house. Go ahead and land a fat Terravore without any Trops. Their mana base isn't that great either. After board, I lose Pridemage and add Mindcensor and Elspeth goes for another Edict.

Dzra

12-16-2010, 01:14 AM

I have been trying out the stock Brad Nelson list with -2 Gerrard's Verdict and +1 Deed (2 main) + 1 Elspeth

That's the exact MD I've been using a while to great success. My meta is mostly aggro and midranged with 1-2 Survivals and 1-2 Countertop. Countertop never scares me, but we seem to draw every single time. ._. Selkie is really hot against them though.

The scariest MU for me is Sligh, in particular there's a RB Sligh that I always have really close matches with. Zoo isn't nearly as bad as you might think. I rarely have trouble keeping them off their colors (depending on gamestate I usually target White, but sometimes Red).

I haven't had a lot of experience playing against New Horizons, but I was testing the deck for a while and thinking of making it when I decided on this. Their manabase is a whole lot more unstable than ours. They generally only run 1 basic: a Forest. I would guess that Diamonds and running all three of our basics would be enough to trump them in the mana war. The biggest concern against them would be their MD Stifles as that hits Wastes, fetches, Deeds, Tops, and Knights. Being able to peak at their hand every now and again with Thoughtseize seems clutch. Again, Selkie seems good here. I'd probably board: -2 Deed, +2 Selkie (-4 Hymn, +4 Path when on the draw).

Although, to be honest, I'm not convinced that New Horizons will be making a big return unless we see ANT come back in force. Their mana denial plan relies on Wasteland + Stifle, so as long as their opponent runs a few basics, NH has to rely on Stifling their fetches and them not drawing a basic. We use Vindicate though, making our mana denial much harder for decks to play around.

ZZZ

12-16-2010, 05:12 AM

Selkie seems interesting, I really need to give him a try.

New Horizons has never seen much play over here but I can see it being a though matchup although we have Mox Diamond, Top and our own Knights to help us out of mana screw and we run about the same amount (or more) disruption than they do.

@Dzra: have you tried Kitchen Finks in the Sligh matchup? I'm currently running 2 in the board for the Zoo and Burn matchup (although they're pretty decent in any aggro matchup).

NathanS2k

12-16-2010, 05:13 AM

Any suggestions going up against Dragon Stompy? I was using Brad Nelson MD list at one of our local tournaments. Our match up went something like this after I lose the dice roll:

Game 1, my opponent did a turn 1 Blood moon and I pretty much had to scoop. I didn't draw any Basic Lands or Mox Diamond.

Game 2, I fetched a Swamp and dropped Mox Diamond. Pretty much stabilized my mana to do what the deck was designed to do. So I won.

Game 3, I mulled to 6. My opponent dropped Ancient Tomb and passed. I dropped Swamp and Mox Diamond then Hymn. My opponent dropped Mountain then brought out Ratchet Bomb to destroy my Mox Diamond. When it was my turn, I didn't do anything and passed. My opponent dropped another Mountain to cast Magus of the Moon. And the game pretty much ended there.

To be honest, I wasn't prepared to go up against Dragon Stompy. I just took out Pernicious Deed and Bojuka Bog to add 2x Duress from my SB.

ZeinVoncy

12-16-2010, 07:22 AM

Dragon Stompy relies on either Blood Moon effects or slowing you down w/ Trinisphere and going for a quick kill afterwards. I haven't really thought of putting any s/b cards in fot it since I've never played against it, but I think it'd be smart to put something for it just in case. Its a solid deck from what I've seen. Sphere of Law maybe.

sdematt

12-16-2010, 09:32 AM

If you can disrupt them early on and keep them off Chalice at one or Blood Moon, you've good. You can usually Path/Swords your way out of most other stuff. If you're facing Stompy, fetch basics early is all I can say. Beyond that, play 5 basics instead of the normal 3 if you plan to see Dragon Stompy regularly. Otherwise, it's a pretty fringe matchup (not even sure if I included it in matchup analysis).

If you guys want to see it, say so, and I'll try to get some testing in.

-Matt

SpikeyMikey

12-16-2010, 11:54 AM

If you can disrupt them early on and keep them off Chalice at one or Blood Moon, you've good. You can usually Path/Swords your way out of most other stuff. If you're facing Stompy, fetch basics early is all I can say. Beyond that, play 5 basics instead of the normal 3 if you plan to see Dragon Stompy regularly. Otherwise, it's a pretty fringe matchup (not even sure if I included it in matchup analysis).

If you guys want to see it, say so, and I'll try to get some testing in.

-Matt

Yeah, it's not really worth building around if there's just 1 floating around in your area. They have incredibly inconsistant draws. Rather than running more basics, I'd probably move to a build with Inquisition and/or Pridemage boardto help control the gamestate. Save Deed for a Moon Effect you can't otherwise stop. Lose the 'goyfs here, you don't need fat, you need to weather threats until they crap out and draw dead for a few turns. Keeping Mauler and Pit Dragon from threatening is your second goal. They have so much card disadvantage in their accell that if you can force them to match cards with you 1 for 1, they'll lose.

Dzra

12-16-2010, 12:20 PM

Yeah, pretty much fetch basics and try to take advantage of their inconsistency. Hands with Thoughtseize are really good. I think in the past I've boarded out my two Deeds for two Verdicts. Boarding out Vindicate in favor of Path might not be a bad idea since W is much easier to hit than 1WB.

Against Sligh I've boarded in Paths and Verdict and it's worked well, but I always cut it close. Finks might be a good call but I'm not sure what to cut. I suppose it might depend on Survival.

AggroSteve

12-16-2010, 05:30 PM

against dragon stompy i think i would not take out my vindicates, i think i would probably even swap my swords to plowshares for edicts, because of chalice for 1

but i have to say i have no idea how the matchup would be best played/boarded, because i never played it with my current rock build(brad nelsons list with minor changes)

so matt, please do us all the favor and make some testings on the matchup

Dzra

12-16-2010, 07:13 PM

Ah yeah, silly me, I forgot about Chalice. I wonder how effective Deed would be against them. The problem is that they have a lot of 3 and 4 drops so you'll need to blow Deed pretty high... not to mention you might have to land Deed before they land Blood Moon.

ZeinVoncy

12-16-2010, 08:14 PM

According to the Dragon Stompy forum, they stated that Pernicious Deed and Qasali Pridemage are two cards they dislike seeing, but otherwise, they are only concerned about different archetypes.

SpikeyMikey

12-16-2010, 09:27 PM

According to the Dragon Stompy forum, they stated that Pernicious Deed and Qasali Pridemage are two cards they dislike seeing, but otherwise, they are only concerned about different archetypes.

And I win! But seriously, you have to make sure you're not so worried about fringe matchups that you lose core matchups like VV and Countertop. I don't care what anyone says, U/G Survival Madness is a joke for me, but the MD Extirpates go a long way. G/W is harder because they can actually generate advantage outside of VV with Survival so you still have to actually deal with Survival or they will out-fat you and now that I'm down to 2 Edict main, Retainer shenanigans can be very rough becase I only run 3 KotR's to find Maze with. I haven't played Ooze yet but postboard I'm packing 4 Extirpates, 3 Mindcensors and a Bog and they don't really have an aggro plan so I think unless they have the dead nuts or I draw really poorly I should be able to fizzle them pretty easily.

JimmyC27

12-16-2010, 09:45 PM

I think Dragon Stompy loses to random junk (not our junk, like straight up garbage decks). It's unlikely you'd be frequently seeing one of these decks in the later rounds of a tournament, so I wouldn't modify your deck too much for one match up.

I run 2x Swamp, 1x Forest, 1x Plains, 3x Mox Diamond and can usually play around anything that tries to screw you over for having nonbasics. If you have a KotR online, you can fetch up basics that way too.

On a different topic... how do people like Extirpate for Countertop (Thopters in particular)? It stops their main wincon, not to mention Counterbalance and Swords to Plowshares can be pretty good targets.

sdematt

12-16-2010, 11:17 PM

@ Knight fetching basics under Blood Moon

Remember, all your non-basics turn to Mountains, so you can't sac them, as you need to sac Forests or Plains to go get more lands.

@ Land configuration

I'm running 2 Swamp, 1 Forest, 1 Plains with no mana accel, but with a Karakas and Inquistion of Kozilek in place of 3 Mox Diamond (I'm at 60, with Moxen and without land + Kozilek, I'm at 61). So far, it's been great with me.

@ Extirpate main

Of course your VV matchup is going to be great with MD Extirpate. I blew Ooze out of the water the other night. First game I plowed him to hell and Vindicated every Survival that landed, and game 2 I Bogged all his Vengevines and Extirpated his Triskelion. I won shortly thereafter :P

@ Ooze not having an Aggro Plan

It's Vengevine, that's their aggro plan. Leyline is much better against Ooze, as they need to constantly have both in their yard.

@ Extirpate on Thopters

Depends. If they have recurring EE, I'd say take out their EE. Enlightened tutor isn't bad either, as it allows them to get Moat, Humility, and Back to Basics. If you've already taken one piece of their Thopter combo via destruction or discard, take that. Then they HAVE to win with Jace. But, since we're running 3-6 Vindicates and fat creatures, we should be ok.

-Matt

Dzra

12-17-2010, 12:20 AM

Well about hitting the Thopter combo, you don't have to wait until you've destroyed a piece. They have to send Sword of the Meek to the yard to combo.

NathanS2k

12-17-2010, 12:37 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about Thopter Foundry/Countertop. Once we dropped 3 Lands (or 2 Lands with Mox Diamond), we can pretty much start to Krosan Grip or Vindicate anything away. Prior to accumulating the resources to do that, we can start tearing apart their hand.

sdematt

12-17-2010, 01:32 AM

Forgot the Swords drops to the GY to combo, whoops :P

I wouldn't always go for the rawdog Extirpate against CounterTop based decks, you have to watch out. Floating 1 or 2 is very common, and they still get a Counterbalance reveal (but no Topping) against a Split Second spell. Keep that in mind when you Grip/Pate.

-Matt

f|i[p]

12-17-2010, 02:11 AM

So as for your land configuration Matt, your running Forests now.. How has it been.... I never really want to see a basic forest... Even a basic plains can sometimes be annoying... So I don't run any basic forest.... But maybe thats because I don't run Mox D.

Dzra

12-17-2010, 12:44 PM

I run one of each basic and the way it usually goes down is I'll fetch for a swamp t1 (all my fetches grab swamps). T2 I usually fetch for a Forest (or sometimes a Plains) just to be safe. The only reason I fetch a dual t2 is because I want to land a Hymn. I've thought about running another basic Swamp, but I'm not sure what I'd take out. I really like having access to all my basics. (I run Mox Diamond also)

sdematt

12-17-2010, 02:46 PM

I always run one of each basic (at least), so I can play everything (almost) in the deck just off basics alone (say against Wastelock from Stax/43 Lands, or under Blood Moon). Forest allows me to put out Goyfs, Knights, and Pulse if need be. It's not as good as a basic swamp, but I like having it there in case. Plus, if I don't like it, it gets sacrificed to KotR :cool:

Blood Moon fucked me one to many times back in the day, as did Wastelock (I used to play 0 basics in every deck. Like I said, I now never leave home without basics).

-Matt

ZeinVoncy

12-17-2010, 03:14 PM

One of each basic is KEY. I've lost to Blood Moon effects back when I play Vintage b/c I had zero basics. Never again will I scoop to a T2-T3 Blood Moon effect.
And I've been Stripped Locked before, so therefore I know the pain 10x worse then Wastelock, I will not go down like that.

2Rach

12-17-2010, 06:32 PM

With Moxes and 1 of each basic, nobody should be having problems. And nobody should ever side out/not side in Pernicious Deed, it's great against them. Truth is, all you really need to do is worry about your manabase, maybe kill a chalice, and everything comes easy after that.

sdematt

12-17-2010, 07:24 PM

Pit Dragon is the only *real* worry here. It gets really big and hits for a lot. You know how you stop that? Vindicate, Ghastly Demise, Swords, Path, Maze of Ith, Pulse, Edict...

Point being, they have a lower threat density, their Trinispheres/REB don't bother us. The only problems we do have are Blood Moon is more annoying than other cards are, and their unanswered threats can be quite good. But, early discard coupled with cheap removal should get us there. I agree: keep Deed in. Wiping our board in exchange for theirs will most likely be very beneficial.

-Matt

ZeinVoncy

12-17-2010, 08:12 PM

@ sdematt

Are you going to try to get some playtesting in for that mu?

And just how good is Ghastly Demise in the board? I have 3 slots to play with and I don't own any Krosan Grips atm, would the be a wise add?

sdematt

12-17-2010, 10:32 PM

I've been playing Ghastly Demise in my Doran build (2 Dorans, -2 Verdict, basically identical to Brad Nelson's list otherwise), and it's been very good. It's like having another Swords/Path most of the time, as you usually have 3+ cards in the yard even early on. The only problem is not hitting non-black. I've had a few occasions where it did matter (Tombstalker), but otherwise it's been stellar.

I'm not even sure if you need Grips, depending on your build. I think if you want to put kill in the board, Path is the next best, with Ghastly a close second after Path. Edict is different, but serves a similar purpose. If they unban Mystical, or if you see a lot of Reanimator/NO combo, I'd say put 3 Edict in the board.

-Matt

ForlornEgoist

12-18-2010, 01:50 PM

As a prominent Stompy player, I can honestly say that topdecks/random opening hand aside, the MU is in Rock's favor. Bob provides you with card advantage we can't deal with, and the Goyfs/KotR are bigger than any of our creatures get and all sit easily above our burn range. Deed also manages to get there. A big part of the deck's defense is shutting off decks that rely heavily on the 1-2 cmc cards. While Rock runs it's fair share, it also has a Deed as a board sweeper and Vindicate for targeted removal.

Ghastly Demise > Path to Exile for Stompy MU: The reason for this is because firstly, we have no GY recursion so the RFG isn't relevant. Secondly, remember that our deck has no card advantage outside builds that run Sword of Fire and Ice, so that extra land from PtE actually does help as it removes the possibility for a topdeck land.

Really, the deck shouldn't be a difficult MU for Rock and is a random MU since it loses to random jank and is incredibly inconsistent.

As for Stompy SB, the only think I would really for sure SB in is Tormod's Crypt, however the number of Stompy players who opt for GY hate is minimal, and I only opt for it because there are a prominant number of GY-based decks in my meta (ie. Lands/Reanimator/Aggro Loam). I would also most likely opt for Pyrokinesis.

Even after SB the MU is still heavily in your favor.

Forlorn Egoist

Rainbow Maker

12-18-2010, 02:24 PM

pte isn't bad. for example you can always path your own creature for a colored mana when a moon effect is on the stack. I have to say this... The only time stompy is hard is if they get a t1 moon and you have all fetches in your hand

Forlorn is so right. It's really inconsistent. It isn't very solid. It doesn't have a whole lot of threats... It should be fairly easy match up. But it rarely shows up...

Magicsk8ngenius

12-18-2010, 04:34 PM

Why are we still talking about the Dragon Stompy matchup? Very few people even play that deck to begin with because it's not good. You should be more focused on real decks, especially ones that are gonna come back if survival is banned - zoo, goblins, merfolk, aka the aggro decks.

SpikeyMikey

12-18-2010, 05:51 PM

Why are we still talking about the Dragon Stompy matchup? Very few people even play that deck to begin with because it's not good. You should be more focused on real decks, especially ones that are gonna come back if survival is banned - zoo, goblins, merfolk, aka the aggro decks.

Exactly. I run a far less stable mana base against Moon or Waste-lock, but I've got Extirpate to deal with Waste and/or LftL and Moon sees play primarily in D-Stompy (occasionally in Gobbos board) so I feel comfortable with only 2 basics (Swamp and Plains).

@Extirpate vs. CB/Top: generally, I'll lead with something else, let them top for a counterbalance then Extirpate. This way, I know Extirpate resolves and I've got a good chance of the other spell resolving too. Taking any of the pillar cards is good, whether it's Plow, Goyf, Force, NO, you name it. Any time you can cut someone off from an entire aspect of their deck and see all their tricks, you're doing well. I'll know that they're out of removal or hard counters or their primary win-con, etc. And I can play with that knowledge improving my decision-making.

Rainbow Maker

12-18-2010, 06:43 PM

Well, at the cb top thing, you will likely only get 1 thing. You could lead with goyf. But they use top o look at the top three If you extirpate with it on the stack they shuffle and
Flip to see If goyf resolves. Once cb gets established and you have no board position... It's hard

SpikeyMikey

12-18-2010, 07:05 PM

You play 'goyf. CB triggers. They respond by topping. Top ability resolves. You Extirpate StP from their yard with CB still on the stack. CB triggers, but they've got a 2 CMC on top of their library now. They probably choose not to flip. Extirpate reesolves, they shuffle. Now if they've got the mana, they can top again but they still need to find another 2 CMC.

Edit: this is relevant because they've probably only got about 10 2 CMC cards total ( 2 Thopter, 1 Sword, 4 CB, 3 Counterspell) and 1 of them is in play. So you're talking a 50% chance of having one in the top 3 even if they can top again.

brianw712

12-18-2010, 08:24 PM

You play 'goyf. CB triggers. They respond by topping. Top ability resolves. You Extirpate StP from their yard with CB still on the stack. CB triggers, but they've got a 2 CMC on top of their library now. They probably choose not to flip. Extirpate reesolves, they shuffle. Now if they've got the mana, they can top again but they still need to find another 2 CMC.

Edit: this is relevant because they've probably only got about 10 2 CMC cards total ( 2 Thopter, 1 Sword, 4 CB, 3 Counterspell) and 1 of them is in play. So you're talking a 50% chance of having one in the top 3 even if they can top again.

I'm not really sure how the Extirpate helps here. What if they didn't have a 2 CMC in their top three to begin with? Then Extirpate just gave them a free shuffle and a second chance to counter your Goyf.

Dzra

12-18-2010, 08:53 PM

I think the assumption here is that you are wanting to force the Extirpate and resolving the Goyf would just be icing on the cake.

You should be more focused on real decks, especially ones that are gonna come back if survival is banned - zoo, goblins, merfolk, aka the aggro decks.

Of those three, Zoo worries me the least. Its mana base is exploitable and we have much better CA and card quality over them. Big Zoo might be the worse of the two versions as it'll be using Nobles and Wastelands.

Merfolk would be the next toughest. They have Wastelands themselves and aren't hurt as badly by our Wastelands. Pre-board it's probably close to 60-40, in favor of Merfolk. The way my board is set up, post-board I can have access to 4 Swords, 4 Paths, 4 Deeds, and 4 Vindicates. It's pretty hard for them to aggro you out before you stabilize with that amount of removal. I also use Cold-Eyed Selkie which is basically a win if it starts swinging.

Goblins would be the toughest of those three I think. 4 Paths is good against them (you need to stop t1 Lacky), but unlike Merfolk, they have a lot of ways to use their extra mana. Deed is obviously good, but they can recover faster than Fish from a Deed as well. All in all, the matchup is very winnable post-board, if you can bring in enough removal, but it's the only one of the three I would rather not play. Elspeth is very good at racing them and Maze is hot.

Rainbow Maker

12-18-2010, 09:01 PM

i think i worded my post wrong. The thing is you will rarely ever have more mana available to you than a countertop does. You also forgot brainstorm and e tutor. for 1 or 2 mana it's not unreasonable to assume they could easily blind flip it. Or top for 1 etc.

brianw712

12-18-2010, 09:18 PM

Goblins would be the toughest of those three I think. 4 Paths is good against them (you need to stop t1 Lacky), but unlike Merfolk, they have a lot of ways to use their extra mana. Deed is obviously good, but they can recover faster than Fish from a Deed as well. All in all, the matchup is very winnable post-board, if you can bring in enough removal, but it's the only one of the three I would rather not play. Elspeth is very good at racing them and Maze is hot.

For me the key to winning the Goblins matchup is discard. Tidehollow Sculler, Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Verdict are all good against them. If you can keep strip them of their card advantage engines and/or the mana to play them, that'll give you enough time to beat them down with Goyfs and KotRs. 1 for 1 removal is only good up to an extent; they have a better long game, so the trick is to keep them off balance with discard long enough before they recover.

Magicsk8ngenius

12-18-2010, 09:40 PM

I think the assumption here is that you are wanting to force the Extirpate and resolving the Goyf would just be icing on the cake.

Of those three, Zoo worries me the least. Its mana base is exploitable and we have much better CA and card quality over them. Big Zoo might be the worse of the two versions as it'll be using Nobles and Wastelands.

Merfolk would be the next toughest. They have Wastelands themselves and aren't hurt as badly by our Wastelands. Pre-board it's probably close to 60-40, in favor of Merfolk. The way my board is set up, post-board I can have access to 4 Swords, 4 Paths, 4 Deeds, and 4 Vindicates. It's pretty hard for them to aggro you out before you stabilize with that amount of removal. I also use Cold-Eyed Selkie which is basically a win if it starts swinging.

Goblins would be the toughest of those three I think. 4 Paths is good against them (you need to stop t1 Lacky), but unlike Merfolk, they have a lot of ways to use their extra mana. Deed is obviously good, but they can recover faster than Fish from a Deed as well. All in all, the matchup is very winnable post-board, if you can bring in enough removal, but it's the only one of the three I would rather not play. Elspeth is very good at racing them and Maze is hot.

This is very weird Dzra. For me it's the exact opposite. Zoo usually gets a good amount of damage in those first few turns before I can stabalize, then they burn me out. This is especially true for the versions that are played in my meta - cat sligh (steppe lynx with extra burn). The goblins matchup is fairly simple. The only thing I need to worry about is a Lackey getting through. This is really not that big of a deal because I play mox diamond. Which means a first time goyf (preferably) or a first turn dark confidant can stop lackey if no swords are in opening grip. Even if Lackey does get through, just a goyf or so holds off their guys while I tear up their hand. Preboard it's something like 70/30 in my favor and post board more like 80/20.

Merfolk I find can be tough, but a lot of it depends on which version of the deck they are playing and the pilot. I also find the deck is pretty inconsistent in it's draws so that is also a factor too. If they are playing a counter heavy version, I think it is more benificial to them. If they are playing a more creature heavy version (standstills and sovereign) they stand a good chance. All in all it's pretty close.

Dzra

12-18-2010, 11:23 PM

For Goblins, 2 for 1 discard seems really good, I think the Thoughtseize might be weak. I might try +4 Path, +2 Deed, +2 Verdict, -4 Thoughtseize, -4 Vindicate. Maybe add 2 Thoughtseize back in when on the play instead of something?

The way most of my Zoo MUs seem to go is: they play a dude, I immediately Swords it. Then I either Hymn, Goyf, or Bob or sometimes Wasteland/Vindicate. Mox Diamonds are really key when you pair it up with LD. Against Zoo you really have to play the tempo game. Don't be afraid to Swords that Steppe Lynx or Nacatl. Sure, they'll play a Goyf or KotR eventually but by then they're either behind on mana, cards, or both.

sdematt

12-20-2010, 04:58 AM

Well fuck, Survival got the banhammer.

I'm waiting to see what decks come back from this. If Vengevine is still viable, we may be alright. If not, we need to get faster/improve out tribal matchups.

It's certainly a sad day for Legacy when I can't use a staple in the freakin' format. DCI, let my people go!

-Matt

The Treefolk Master

12-20-2010, 07:18 AM

Well fuck, Survival got the banhammer.

I'm waiting to see what decks come back from this. If Vengevine is still viable, we may be alright. If not, we need to get faster/improve out tribal matchups.

It's certainly a sad day for Legacy when I can't use a staple in the freakin' format. DCI, let my people go!

-Matt

Before survival got banned, people began to play more and more ANT, which will likely continue, at least in the near future. With the addition of Time Spiral, I think we're going to see quite a lot of storm. It may not be the place to discuss this, but if what I said happens, this deck should be adjusted to be able to beat combo more efficiently (pack more hatebears and disruption).

ZZZ

12-20-2010, 07:22 AM

For Goblins, 2 for 1 discard seems really good, I think the Thoughtseize might be weak. I might try +4 Path, +2 Deed, +2 Verdict, -4 Thoughtseize, -4 Vindicate. Maybe add 2 Thoughtseize back in when on the play instead of something?

The way most of my Zoo MUs seem to go is: they play a dude, I immediately Swords it. Then I either Hymn, Goyf, or Bob or sometimes Wasteland/Vindicate. Mox Diamonds are really key when you pair it up with LD. Against Zoo you really have to play the tempo game. Don't be afraid to Swords that Steppe Lynx or Nacatl. Sure, they'll play a Goyf or KotR eventually but by then they're either behind on mana, cards, or both.

I've found Thoughtseize to be 1 of the best cards against Goblins. Ringleader is key here, if you can nab one out of their hand early, you have a good chance.

We can easily trade 1 for 1 with Zoo's creatures and come out on top. Against Goblins you're screwed if you have to do that. Deed is also not so good against them because they have quite a high mana curve and they play more mana denial than Merfolk (Rishadan Port in addtion to Wasteland). I also think Goblins is the hardest aggro matchup.

Survival banned; I think we'll go back to the pre-Suvival meta with a lot of aggro (Merfolk, Gobs and Zoo) and some CounterTop, Landstill and Storm Combo. I'm already trying out an old controllish Rock list of mine which should do pretty good against aggro and CounterTop (a lot worse against combo though).

Before survival got banned, people began to play more and more ANT, which will likely continue, at least in the near future. With the addition of Time Spiral, I think we're going to see quite a lot of storm. It may not be the place to discuss this, but if what I said happens, this deck should be adjusted to be able to beat combo more efficiently (pack more hatebears and disruption).

I'm hoping CounterTop will see more play again keeping combo in check. If you really run into lots of combo, I'd play another deck instead of trying to tune this one to beat combo.

Dzra

12-20-2010, 12:23 PM

That's really disappointing, I wish they wouldn't snap ban staples. The only really broken Survival deck in my opinion is Ooze and no one would complain about Phyrexian Devourer getting banned. You'd think they'd use their heads occasionally. /rant

Anyways, yeah, there's no reason to believe that there's going to be a whole lot more Storm now. The last meta was the best time for Storm since Mystical got banned. I expect the Buried Alive deck to get some notice as it still uses the Ooze combo. Other than that though, it looks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo are going to be on top. Perhaps, luckily for us, Zoo (Burn Zoo in particular) has good MUs against the other two aggro decks and we have a good MU vs Zoo.

SpikeyMikey

12-20-2010, 02:26 PM

Any way you look at it, we just got shafted. Survival was a decent-good M/U for us and it beat the decks that we had problems with. With Survival gone, we're back to tier 2. I'll have to make some adjustments to my build to try and keep it semi-viable for KC. At the least I'll be cutting some Pridemages and I may take Mindcensor out of the board, although it's a good play against storm still and any Intuition-based VV decks.

f|i[p]

12-21-2010, 04:45 AM

So I guess we are going back to square 1.. More merfolks, and traditional zoo will be coming up in metagames...More problems for this deck will arise, and we all have to adjust, to a slightly faster metagame in terms of beatdown...

SpikeyMikey

12-21-2010, 11:53 AM

;509301']So I guess we are going back to square 1.. More merfolks, and traditional zoo will be coming up in metagames...More problems for this deck will arise, and we all have to adjust, to a slightly faster metagame in terms of beatdown...

The problem is we're based around discard, which is poor against decks that empty their hands quickly, and 3cc spells which are just too slow to deal with things like Nacatl or Ringleader into 3 gobbos. We're still fine against control and combo where we can get good value out of our cards, but we're not a fast deck. No Survival will probably mean more NOPro; I would suggest you guys start maining Edict or Tariff and ramping up the removal. I don't think we can support Gatekeeper, but maybe there's a beater out there that we can use that doubles as removal. I'm just not sure where we can go to stay viable.

sdematt

12-21-2010, 12:26 PM

We'll still be viable, don't get us wrong. But we're no longer AS good as we were, as we were preying on Survival. I wouldn't say we're Tier 2 now, I'd still say we're 1.5 like the rest of the decks in the developing competitive. I think I can now take most of the gravehate out (Extirpates, etc.) and focus on putting Edicts and the like back in. It may be time to go to a Stoneforge build just to have more game against Aggro.

-Matt

Dzra

12-21-2010, 12:40 PM

I think you guys are overdoing it here. Brad Nelson's list that got all the hype at GP Columbus was before Survival really took off. I've been playing all this time in a mostly aggro meta (lot's of Goblins, Sligh, and Zoo) and I've been doing very well. The main MD changes I'd made are -2 Verdicts, +1 Deed, +1 Elspeth. 10 discard can be a bit much against aggro I think, so the extra removal and the extra reach help. The sideboard is where you really get to go to town, but honestly the stock MD is still very powerful. If you've been on the fence about Mox Diamond, an aggro meta is where you'll want the extra tempo.

Also, I don't know why I'd never thought of Tariff before, but if you are running into a lot of NO decks, Tariff is the way to go. Edict really is just bad. NO decks always have the extra creatures around to sac or else they're just a bad player. Still, I feel that you still have a good chance at winning the NO MU without either and just disrupting their mana/hand.

2Rach

12-21-2010, 03:30 PM

Tariff is terrible. Perish does the same thing and has so many other applications.

Dzra

12-21-2010, 10:07 PM

Perish is a board wipe for you as well. Tariff forces them to sac Prog and there's a fair chance you can save your creature. I'm not about to run either because NO isn't a problem in my meta, but Tariff handles it a lot better than Perish or Edict.

Rainbow Maker

12-22-2010, 04:44 AM

what made the discard good was diamond. Diamond just sped up the deck. I don't see the problems with Nelson's list. I have already tried with mystics. the one thing i'm not sold on is the witness. My curve is fairly high. I have 12 3cmc which might be a problem. I mainly need to test i guess.

ZZZ

12-22-2010, 05:33 AM

I think you guys are overdoing it here. Brad Nelson's list that got all the hype at GP Columbus was before Survival really took off. I've been playing all this time in a mostly aggro meta (lot's of Goblins, Sligh, and Zoo) and I've been doing very well. The main MD changes I'd made are -2 Verdicts, +1 Deed, +1 Elspeth. 10 discard can be a bit much against aggro I think, so the extra removal and the extra reach help. The sideboard is where you really get to go to town, but honestly the stock MD is still very powerful. If you've been on the fence about Mox Diamond, an aggro meta is where you'll want the extra tempo.

This.

There's nothing wrong with the Brad Nelson list in a meta without Survival. The only change you could make is take out the Gerrard's Verdicts for something else (possibly more removal). I'm running the same main deck as Dzra and it's been doing very well against most of the Tier 1 decks.

If anything, the banning makes other approaches to The Rock viable again (for example a more controllish list with less discard and more removal can do well in a aggro meta).

SpikeyMikey

12-22-2010, 12:51 PM

This.

There's nothing wrong with the Brad Nelson list in a meta without Survival. The only change you could make is take out the Gerrard's Verdicts for something else (possibly more removal). I'm running the same main deck as Dzra and it's been doing very well against most of the Tier 1 decks.

If anything, the banning makes other approaches to The Rock viable again (for example a more controllish list with less discard and more removal can do well in a aggro meta).

The thing is, none of us are as good as Brad Nelson and his list was flawed in the first place. I went over it in the old thread, but if you run the numbers, you realize that Mox Diamond is bad in this deck. In accelerating Hymn or Confidant on turn 1, it's great. In accelerating Vindicate or Knight on turn 2, it's acceptable. In fringe cases where you're facing Waste-lock or Blood Moon it's ok. It's good with EE for killing planeswalkers but that's a bit of a corner-case as well.

Outside of those instances, Mox Diamond is terrible. People justify it by saying "you can use it to pump KotR or Goyf". But
Let's be honest, it's of questionable use and other cards would serve that purpose better (Jitte/Swords). So really, you're looking at times when it's in your starting hand (or topdeck on the draw) and you have Hymn/Confidant in your grip as well (turn 1 Goyf is unimpressive) as very useful and times when it's in your first draw (or first two on the draw) as somewhat useful with Vindicate or KotR. So it's very useful about 1/3rd of the time and somewhat useful just under half of the time (assuming 3 Diamonds). You're playing a card that's dead (or damn close to it) in over half the games you play. Unless you're very lucky, that's just a bad idea. And the two cards you really want to cast off of it merely erase the disadvantage of playing it, they don't generate card advantage by using Mox Diamond. You do get some tempo advantage, but Rock doesn't play the tempo game nearly as well as say New Horizons or Team America. Even CB Bant is better with tempo.

Basically, it's poor construction overcome by a pro-level player and piloted to a T8 by a combination of luck and skill.

Rainbow Maker

12-22-2010, 01:39 PM

The thing is, none of us are as good as Brad Nelson and his list was flawed in the first place. I went over it in the old thread, but if you run the numbers, you realize that Mox Diamond is bad in this deck. In accelerating Hymn or Confidant on turn 1, it's great. In accelerating Vindicate or Knight on turn 2, it's acceptable. In fringe cases where you're facing Waste-lock or Blood Moon it's ok. It's good with EE for killing planeswalkers but that's a bit of a corner-case as well.

Outside of those instances, Mox Diamond is terrible. People justify it by saying "you can use it to pump KotR or Goyf". But
Let's be honest, it's of questionable use and other cards would serve that purpose better (Jitte/Swords). So really, you're looking at times when it's in your starting hand (or topdeck on the draw) and you have Hymn/Confidant in your grip as well (turn 1 Goyf is unimpressive) as very useful and times when it's in your first draw (or first two on the draw) as somewhat useful with Vindicate or KotR. So it's very useful about 1/3rd of the time and somewhat useful just under half of the time (assuming 3 Diamonds). You're playing a card that's dead (or damn close to it) in over half the games you play. Unless you're very lucky, that's just a bad idea. And the two cards you really want to cast off of it merely erase the disadvantage of playing it, they don't generate card advantage by using Mox Diamond. You do get some tempo advantage, but Rock doesn't play the tempo game nearly as well as say New Horizons or Team America. Even CB Bant is better with tempo.

Basically, it's poor construction overcome by a pro-level player and piloted to a T8 by a combination of luck and skill.
I don't think diamond is bad. I don't play it. I don't like it. It is tempo. A lot of people use card that creatre tempo. Fow, Stifle, daze. I realize Stifle isn't used that much, daze is ehh... But teh point remains the same. They aren't bad cards. Diamond is a tempo card. I could open with hymn, verdict or bob. But as the game progresses i could topdeck a diamon which is almost always strcitly worse than getting a land. Mox diamond sacrifices consistancy for explosiveness. I would much rather topdeck more threats/answers than something like diamond.

Dzra

12-22-2010, 02:21 PM

The thing is that turn 2 is the fundamental turn in legacy. Things get done on turn 2. For a deck that has the majority of its spells sitting at 2-3 cmc, we need a way to either stall them or speed us up. Mox Diamond does that for us and Wasteland does that for us. Together they are twice as broken. Two for one discard does that for us. Turn 2 Vindicate is brutal, especially if you are on the play and/or if you played Hymn/Bob turn 1. Last night, I even played a turn 1 KotR against a friend playing Merfolk. The Knight comes down as a 5/5. That's gg. Turn 1 Goyf might be subpar against a lot of MUs, but against one of our worst MUs (Goblins), it is probably the best play in the books.

Legacy is a format full of powerful and silly interactions, especially early in the game. If you want to play a very "fair" deck, don't use Diamonds. If you want the ability to explode and gain enormous advantage over your opponent then you need Mox Diamond. In fact, I would almost go as far to say Mox Diamond doesn't compliment this deck so much as this deck was built to abuse Mox Diamond. Does it happen every game? No. Is it a lackluster topdeck? Yes. But the key is that the deck is built to abuse early Diamonds, recover from late Diamonds (Tops, Bob), and be able to put up a good fight when it doesn't get Diamond (Wasteland, Vindicate, Deed).

AggroSteve

12-22-2010, 02:28 PM

i think i have to add my 2 cents to thins conversation,.... i am using mox diamonds and i just love them

i used birds of paradise before, i played a more controllish build, but the best list i was using is the tempobased strategy of brad nelsons list, and i do not think that his list was flawed, since lists similar to his made a lot of T8 afterwards

yes mox diamonds sacrifice consistency for speed, but it is actually worth it, since like this you can get rid of threads/problems even before they appear with discard, and that even on turn 1.... ok yeah thoughtseize does the same as well, BUT with mox+hymn you can wreck your opponents day if your picking the right things, and it will allways be CA
i am well aware of the pro an cons to mox diamond but if you have a build in which they fit in, you should not have any problems with the drawback of mox

i for my part wont go back to a list without mox diamonds, and the only thing that i would change in brad nelsons list would be the 2 verdicts, but even that would strongly depend on the meta, meaning i would only change the 2 verdicts into something else if i would have a more aggro-heavy meta, and if i would be in a more aggro meta, i probably would opt for 2 dorans, since he would stop lots of merfolk/goblin/affinity aggression, just for his sice and ability

hopefully my thoughts got through to you (i think my english is not to awesome, but the bigger problem is me often being confused^^)

- funny, Dzra was just a bit faster, and pointed the same thoughts out, but a lot clearlyier than i did^^

Rainbow Maker

12-22-2010, 11:19 PM

As i was trying to get at before, it's preference. There is no right or wrong answer. It just comes down to play style. You can have ridiculous plays that could make you win the game before the opponent even has a turn. But in order to try and achieve this you lose some consistency

ZZZ

12-23-2010, 09:15 AM

The thing is, none of us are as good as Brad Nelson and his list was flawed in the first place. I went over it in the old thread, but if you run the numbers, you realize that Mox Diamond is bad in this deck. In accelerating Hymn or Confidant on turn 1, it's great. In accelerating Vindicate or Knight on turn 2, it's acceptable. In fringe cases where you're facing Waste-lock or Blood Moon it's ok. It's good with EE for killing planeswalkers but that's a bit of a corner-case as well.

Outside of those instances, Mox Diamond is terrible. People justify it by saying "you can use it to pump KotR or Goyf". But
Let's be honest, it's of questionable use and other cards would serve that purpose better (Jitte/Swords). So really, you're looking at times when it's in your starting hand (or topdeck on the draw) and you have Hymn/Confidant in your grip as well (turn 1 Goyf is unimpressive) as very useful and times when it's in your first draw (or first two on the draw) as somewhat useful with Vindicate or KotR. So it's very useful about 1/3rd of the time and somewhat useful just under half of the time (assuming 3 Diamonds). You're playing a card that's dead (or damn close to it) in over half the games you play. Unless you're very lucky, that's just a bad idea. And the two cards you really want to cast off of it merely erase the disadvantage of playing it, they don't generate card advantage by using Mox Diamond. You do get some tempo advantage, but Rock doesn't play the tempo game nearly as well as say New Horizons or Team America. Even CB Bant is better with tempo.

Basically, it's poor construction overcome by a pro-level player and piloted to a T8 by a combination of luck and skill.

I think Mox Diamond contributes to the versatility of this deck. You’re right that there are decks which can play the tempo game better than us, there are also decks which can play the control or the aggro game better. What I have found important when playing the Brad Nelson list, is understanding which role you need to take on. If the matchup or situation lends itself to play the tempo game, Mox Diamond allows you to do so by accelerating into Hymn, Confidant, Vindicate or whatever. If we need to play a more controllish game, there’s a good chance you’re playing against a deck that packs Wasteland (Merfolk or Goblins for example), here Mox Diamond is a non-wasteable mana source and a colour fixer.
I also think that Hymn, Bob or Vindicate aren’t the only cards you want to accelerate into. Against aggro decks, it’s often important to play the turn 2 Bob and still keep the mana open for Swords to Plowshares. Against Merfolk for example, Mox Diamond has often allowed me to play that Deed around Daze on the turn it mattered. There are lots of other examples.

I think that unless you’re playing a controlling build of The Rock, some sort of acceleration is needed. I prefer Mox Diamond over Hierarch and BoP because it enables more turn 1 plays, can’t be plowed/pathed and provides all colours of mana (BoP as well obviously).

FieryBalrog

12-23-2010, 10:01 AM

If only Hierarch tapped for black. Maybe they can print a BGW wedge equivalent in the Commander decks. Well, I can dream anyway.

It's the perfect creature for this deck. Just... one color off.

Dzra

12-23-2010, 01:51 PM

I definitely think Nobles/Birds can be strong, but neither one of those is a better topdeck than Diamond and neither one allows for broken t1 plays like Diamond. Against Survival decks, I found myself constantly Swordsing their Nobles to slow them down. It works, especially since we can follow up with a Wasteland or Vindicate. I even watched my friend (playing Survival) get two of his Nobles Swords'd in a row. Every game against Survival that I saw a first/second turn Noble Swords'd, the Survival deck lost. Survival is obviously gone, but the point is that we don't want to be carrying that same vulnerability. We are even more color dependent than Survival (although perhaps not as mana hungry).

Anyways, I'm sure this debate will get resurrected every now and then in this thread, but I'm definitely not willing to chalk it up to Brad Nelson simply being a great player or some people's playstyles are different. I feel like on the Mox Diamond issue (at least in the deck's current incarnation) there is a right answer. <3

sdematt

12-23-2010, 02:33 PM

I disagree with the Mox Diamond argument. Mox Diamond allows for explosive plays on turn 1, sacrificed for mana stability throughout the game. You're losing actual lands for Mox Diamond to provide broken plays some of the time. In some cases, the benefits of a turn 1 2-drop outweigh the risks of stalling on lands the next turn and previous.

A good example is Stax. Stax is content with not playing lands on turn 2 because of the busted things that can be played turn 1 via Mox Diamond. A turn-1 Trinisphere is fine by me, even if I don't have a land to follow it up with on turn-2. If you feel that you're getting extreme benefit from Mox Diamond such as this, then you should play it. If you're looking for less-busted turn 1's, but more overall mana stability against opposing land destruction and drawing more lands more often for larger threats, than perhaps Mox isn't the best route for you, and perhaps Noble, Birds, or just more lands is the route to go.

There is no "right answer" here, as there are several factors: what's your playstyle, what are the matchups in your metagame, what do you prefer, etc. We've outlined the options for mana acceleration to use at your will, but one thing is certain: playing better things faster is good, but so is not getting mana screwed.

/end discussion (dramatic effect, not literal)

-Matt

Rainbow Maker

12-23-2010, 04:11 PM

Well there really isn't a right answer. Birds are better with doran. They can pick up both swords. Exalted triggers are a lot bigger than you would think. It's good if you run the swords or jitte. It doesn't cause you cards disadvantage. It really is play style. Play style dictates how you list looks which also means what cards are better than others. For example I run more basics than most. I have also dropped most discard from the list only running 4 thoughtseize. So my mana requirements aren't that hard to attain. But I am now trying the deck without the maze of ith. I run a more aggro list with 18 creatures. I sometimes think about adding hierarch, but i need to test my list more. My curve is really high. It is 1.92.

Dzra

12-23-2010, 04:22 PM

That is pretty high, mine is only 1.15. Are you running that with Birds or without any acceleration?

Rainbow Maker

12-23-2010, 05:56 PM

1.15? wow that's really low. Is that your average cmc(all mana costs/# non-lands) or average bob flip?(all mana costs/60) The reason why my curve is so high is because right now i'm running a mystic package. I might drop it, the package with the mystics is 2.4 of the curve. The dilemma is do i want excel with mystics? but if i do that, can i hold my own without the equipments(much like Deadguy ale can't) I haven't really tested my list but it looks like
3 tops
4 seize
4 swords
2 path

4 bob
4 goyf
2 pridemage
2 mystic
1 jitt

4 vindicate
4 knight
2 witness
1 solas
1 sofi

i might drop an artifact. I might scrap the list. One thing i didn't like about brad's list was the threat density. You have 12 threats. But in reality bob can't usually finish the game all by himself. The thing is there are so many viable options with this deck. Birds and hierarch can be horrid topdecks. But at the same time drawing a birds and equipping it can also be on the the best plays. I really hate testing online, I don't find it fun. However my playtest group has been rather busy. I will do some goldfishing and see how it goes without any disruption/threats. I will ultimately probably run something similar to extended doran if i want to keep the mystic.

O with the limited testing i have had with this list I slaughter gobos and slower versions of the rock. Anything aggro is a great match up it seems. Control is a pain. Jace just does what he does best... win

I was looking on deckdb. Here's my list with the pulses in the place of the path. My lands are a bit different.

Dzra

12-23-2010, 07:26 PM

Ah, yeah, the 1.15 is the full 60 cards. It'd make a lot more sense if your 1.92 was just with your non-land spells. Not counting mana-producing lands, I'd be at 1.8. I think if you're slowing the deck down that much, try to fit in an Elspeth. They are really solid. I have a couple problems with Equipment in the Rock... one, they aren't efficient. The deck likes to play efficiency and it seems like another threat would just be faster and more consistent. Two, since the deck likes to play big efficient creatures, it's very safe to run Deeds. You only have to play one threat to match an aggro deck's multiple smaller threats, making it easy for you to not over-extend into your own Deed. Equipment has the benefit of making weak creatures into bigger threats, but when you blow a Deed the result is the same and you lose 2+ cards instead of just 1+.

sdematt

12-24-2010, 03:06 AM

So a friend of mine and I ground out some games last night. Rock vs. Dreadstill, and Rock vs. Landstill. My friend was playing my Rock deck, and I was playing the others. These were all pre-board.

In the Dreadstill matchups, I went all in against him in the first few games, putting out Dreadnoughts on turn 2. On the times he played first, he won most of them due to ripping my hand apart, and then Swords'ing my Dreadnought if it stuck. At times I had enough counters to get rid of his destruction, other times he blew my shit up. Fun games all around.

Then, we ground out one game against UBGW Landstill, where I was playing Landstill. The game took about an hour, and result in him being victorious by me decking myself. I countered/removed every threat he had, but he got there. He killed all of my Jaces, ran me out of counters, ripped my hand apart, and Swords'd all of my Factories. The game went into the extreme long-game and I literally had nothing. As well, he was landscrewed for the first 3 turns. Case in point: Rock seems to do decently well if against Landstill if we can either stick a threat, or run Jacestill out of threats itself :P

Pretty epic game it sounds like haha. I expect, like most of our MUs, they would only get better after siding.

What do you think good SBs would be in the different MUs? I'd think Deed might be underwhelming against Dreadstill, but maybe not since they run Counterbalance and Deed for 0 isn't all bad.

Either way, perhaps more hand disruption would be good? I think these are MUs where Selkies would really shine as well.

ZeinVoncy

12-24-2010, 08:16 AM

Glissa, The Traitor BGG
3/3 Legendary Creature - Zombie Elf
Deathtouch, first strike
Whenever a creature an opponent controls is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.

To me, she screams Rock w/ Engineered Explosives. LoL, but I'm unsure adding her just for a recurring EE would viable. Thoughts on the new card? (Other then being totally disappointed)

My apologies on not being active, my list has been on standstill (harhar) for a bit until the Christmas season is over. Been waiting for a Maze of Ith to come in the mail for 2 weeks now. So there have been no changes and the latest subject (Mox Diamond vs Heirarch/BoP) has been discussed before, the result being what sdematt just said.

The other half being Survival banning. Perhaps we will see more top8's since Survival based decks clogged up most of the spots, but honestly, I think Rock will keep on keeping on. In short, Time Spiral is NOT good news for us. Unless we strip hands down, Tendrils decks I feel are our worst matchup. Now add another combo deck when some of us feel that dropping some discard for more aggro due to SotF banning? Not any better. We will have to see, I'm dropping the deck and I'm not making any changes until I see what the meta is like and I can get my feet wet.

Otherwise I have not felt like my input was needed. Happy Holidays all!

sdematt

12-24-2010, 10:37 AM

Time Spiral makes Spring Tide tier 2 with a more consistent 4th turn. These decks rely heavily on you NOT touching them for at least 4-5 turns, nevermind laying a threat, hand disruption, or vindicating their Islands. Suffice to say, there's a reason we don't see huge masses of High Tide anymore, and Time Spiral isn't going to bring it back.

-Matt

Rainbow Maker

12-24-2010, 12:46 PM

Well i think time spiral will be used more in spring tide rather than high tide. which means they're susceptible to wasteland. Atmy list, i think i but a lot of meh creatures to justify the inclusion of the equipment. @ landstill... That matchup is so boring. I think i will put 1-2 deeds main because it helps against most matchups i have ttroule with. thoptertop, 4c cb, landstill. Things with retardedly broken engines. i.e Jace. Also equipment is bad against those matchups. I think i can sac some of the aggro matchup which i have a walk in the park against.

SpikeyMikey

12-24-2010, 03:01 PM

i think i have to add my 2 cents to thins conversation,.... i am using mox diamonds and i just love them

i used birds of paradise before, i played a more controllish build, but the best list i was using is the tempobased strategy of brad nelsons list, and i do not think that his list was flawed, since lists similar to his made a lot of T8 afterwards

yes mox diamonds sacrifice consistency for speed, but it is actually worth it, since like this you can get rid of threads/problems even before they appear with discard, and that even on turn 1....

No argument. T1 Diamond, with at least 2 lands and Bob/Hymn is explosive. But like I pointed out, your chance of having the T1 Diamond are about 1 in 3. That's not the odds of having Diamond with 2 lands and Bob/Hymn/Verdict. That's the odds of having T1 Diamond. You're playing a card that's explosive maybe 20% of the time and dead 80% of the time. Run the numbers on MTGO or MWS and see what your likelyhood of a good opening are.

ok yeah thoughtseize does the same as well, BUT with mox+hymn you can wreck your opponents day if your picking the right things, and it will allways be CA

No, it's card parity. You trade 2 cards (land pitched to Diamond and Hymn/Verdict) and 2 mana for 2 cards. Unless you get some good stuff with Hymn, it's actually a tempo loss. Now Hymn is good enough that it's still a strong play, but you're still relying on luck to swing you through it. If you get the right things, it's tempo advantage, but turn 1 Hymn is NEVER card advantage.

i am well aware of the pro an cons to mox diamond but if you have a build in which they fit in, you should not have any problems with the drawback of mox

The only synergy Rock has with Diamond is that it pumps KotR. It's not like we're running Loam to ignore the card disadvantage. We don't run Lavamancer, which could feed off the extra cards in yard, or Psychatog or any other GY interaction other than KotR. That's not a strong incentive to run the card.

i for my part wont go back to a list without mox diamonds, and the only thing that i would change in brad nelsons list would be the 2 verdicts, but even that would strongly depend on the meta, meaning i would only change the 2 verdicts into something else if i would have a more aggro-heavy meta, and if i would be in a more aggro meta, i probably would opt for 2 dorans, since he would stop lots of merfolk/goblin/affinity aggression, just for his sice and ability

hopefully my thoughts got through to you (i think my english is not to awesome, but the bigger problem is me often being confused^^)

- funny, Dzra was just a bit faster, and pointed the same thoughts out, but a lot clearlyier than i did^^

And that's fine. That's why we have a thread about the deck, instead of everyone playing the same listing. I'm just saying that Mox Diamond is demonstrably subpar. Can you win with it? Sure. My old roomate in San Diego used to have a version of the T1 turboland deck that used Mountain Goat as its win-con instead of Stroke or Fire/Ice. Once you assembled the combo, the win-con didn't really matter. But was it sub-par? Absolutely.

FieryBalrog

12-24-2010, 06:09 PM

Unfortunately there's no perfect fit for mana acceleration in this deck, like a Hierarch that tapped for BGW. You either run a weaker and somewhat outdated creature (birds), you run Hierarch and hurt your access to early BB, or you run Mox and take the CA hit. Mox is perfect for Aggro Loam and Stax because of Loam and Crucible making up the drawback, combined with the real desire for broken turn 1 plays (turn 1 Trini, Chalice @ 1, Crucible, etc.) Hierarch of course perfectly fits Bant, GU and GW decks of all sorts.

Birds was Rock's go-to for a long time, but Birds ain't what it used to be.

I'm going to try all the different options. I suspect I'll end up sticking with Hierarch as the main thing that is hurt is early Hymn. That's not good, but it seems the least of the evils.

Dzra

12-24-2010, 06:35 PM

Saying that Mox Diamond is card disadvantage is only true in the strictest sense of CA. Chrome Mox is disadvantage, Force is disadvantage, tossing a land to Diamond isn't making your hand any less potent. You lose a card, but a land card, and the deck has plenty of land. You actually get mana screwed less with Mox Diamond due to the popularity of Wastelands in just about every archtype.

Sure people run less than optimized lists all the time and I hate to fall back on this argument because even pros can run less than optimized lists, but do you really think it's coincidence or people just being copy cats that every Rock list that has placed recently ran Mox Diamond?

I can at least understand the argument of "I don't want Diamonds because I want higher impact density," but running Nobles/Birds over Diamonds? They take away from your threat density just the same, except without the ridiculous plays.

I can, however, agree with FieryBalrog that hopefully in the future, we get access to a better accelerator... but I think we might be waiting for a while.

AggroSteve

12-24-2010, 06:50 PM

appearingly my post from a few days ago was not clear enough i think,... ok still mox or no mox will allways be a decision for every player to make, the thing i love about mox the most is that (even if its just about 27% or whatever) he enables broken 1st turn-plays, and we got plenty of them available (depending on list something between 12 and 17), and this does not seem subpar to me at all,..... ok we do not run any recursion for lands, this may be true, and i do not want to argument on this because i find both life from the loam and even crucible if someone wants to consider it, to be horrible in this deck (brad nelson-similar list)

hymn not being CA if cast 1st turn may be true, but compared to the use of a 1st turn hymn has, i gladly sacrifice this one land for the extra speed

i believe Dzra said the most fitting thing about mox diamond in this deck..... this deck is not to use mox diamond for synergy, but to abuse it for a speed burst.... hopefully my quote here was right (to lazy to search for the post^^) otherwise please excuse

talking about poor synergy ... hierarch has in no ways a better synergy with this deck if you ask me, and the exalted triggers are not worth his inclusion IMO, since we got the biggest beats around that are easily castable and we can take care of any thread in our way

gosh, again,....
while writing i forget to what point i want to get..... doh^^,...... i think basically it was diamond is good, may seem subpar on paper but rapes other players game IMO...... when i changed to the list with moxes i finally got what i wanted, ... being able to play the aggro role against other aggro control decks which gives me and my playstyle just the flexibility i wanted...... (basically making mox diamond a choice of playstyle i think, but by no means subpar, maybe with not the best synergy with the rest of the deck, but not subpar)

yeah, remembered what i wanted to write^^

funny, dzra was again a bit faster than me, and again made all the thoughts on mox way clearlier visible than my post^^

sdematt

12-24-2010, 07:40 PM

Just wanted to say to everyone in the Rock Thread, Merry Christmas!

-Matt

ZeinVoncy

12-24-2010, 08:45 PM

Otherwise I have not felt like my input was needed. Happy Holidays all!

Restating it! :D Thanks sdematt.

Magicsk8ngenius

12-24-2010, 10:27 PM

Alright, I feel I need to put in my 2 cents on the Mox Diamond conversation.

Just a little background first. I have played many versions of the rock for a while. I generally consider it my pet deck and try all kinds of crazy things with it. I feel that I have a significant background and experience playing it and different versions. I have played extensively versions that run the Stoneforge Mystic package, the no acceleration package as well as a loam heavy version. I played at the GP Columbus earlier this year with a loam based rock deck and went 9-1-1 on day 1 and then placed 71st overall (same number of points as people in the 40's, just bad tie-breakers).

First off there is no way you can run this deck and be competitive in about any meta without some sort of mana acceleration package and I think most of you realize this. It's true there is no perfect mana accelerate for this list and options are quite limited. As stated before turn 2 is where everything happens in legacy so you need that first turn diamond or hierarch.

As to whether to play Diamond or Heirarch, I feel they are pretty close, but I prefer the diamond. It is card disadvantage, but the rest of this deck is card advantage, so I'm completely fine with that. We all understand the advantages and disadvantages of having a 5 color mana source and being wasteland-proof, that is almost an obvious advantage. Sure they can swords your heirarch, but if they do, you're generally in a good position because now they have 1 less swords for your goyf/bob/knight, the real threats. The real reason why I prefer diamond is because sometimes you need to play the tempo role.

There's been a few articles written by famous mtg writers about who's the control and who's the aggro. I suggest that everyone read up on these articles because you really need to understand this concept when playing this deck. The Rock is a mid-range deck. You've got to really accept this fact and think about it often when playing. Every matchup that you play in should change your playstyle depending upon the other deck. You really need to decide what's the best way to beat deck X and how am I going to get there. Think about all the cards you play and how they will affect this specific matchup. There are times where you either need to play the tempo role, or be able to keep up with the opposing tempo based deck. Sure noble hierarch can do this, but Mox Diamond is far superior in this position.

Both cards do become pretty dead draws later, but this is why you play fetchlands and top, so we won't talk about that.

I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that the weakest card in the deck would probably be the 2x Gerard's Verdict. If you're aiming for a more aggro meta, these would probably be the first to go. I'd play 2x Ghastly Demise in it's spot, but I'm sure others will still prefer Path to Exile (which now that vengevine survival is gone is even less attractive).

The Stoneforge Mystic package is interesting, but you really have to play a more aggro style of rock for it to really be worth pursuing and even then it is pretty weak. One thing that really makes rock stand out is like I said above, you really change your play style depending on what the opponent is playing. Your role as a deck constantly changes from game to game. If you add the mystic package you're really cutting down on your options here. By adding equipment you now have to play a good amount of creatures in order to take full advantage of this, which in turn takes away other control elements of the deck and you're less able to adapt to the certain strategy that beats the opposing deck. Also the other problem I ran into with the mystic package is it's just kinda clunky. It is mana intensive and as somebody previously stated, not efficient. Stoneforge mystic + Jitte + Equip = 6 mana at least. Even then you're stuck with a Squire with a sword. I'd much rather just play a decent creature if this is the case because it is more versatile. This will really show in the control matchup when they take out your few creatures and you're stuck with a cold Jitte.

On a different note, here's my predictions on the upcoming meta. Survival is gone, aggro decks (zoo, merfolk, goblins) can now come out and play again. With aggro decks coming out of hiding, storm combo decks now have much more to prey upon, so they will increase in popularity as well. Control decks (landstill, dreadstill, countertop bant) will stay about the same. The control matchup I've always felt was a pretty easy win. (at GP Columbus I played 6 or 7 counterbalance decks and lost to none of them) The aggro decks and combo decks are ones that actually deserve some sideboard slots. I know some of you have talked about playing duress in the board, but I've always felt it was pretty weak. I'm about to try it out though with the following changes: - 2 Engineered Explosives from main, -2 Gerard's Verdict from main, + 1 Vindicate (I was only playing 3) + 1 Ghastly Demise, and + 2 Quasali. I feel this will help a bit more in the aggro matchup providing blockers in the form of Quasali which vs the goblins and merfolk matchup they can trade, and help out in the control matchup by being able to destroy the counterbalance, moat, etc. and also the extra creature control in the forms of Demise and Vindicate. + 4 Duress to the sideboard to help fight the combo matchup should be significant enough as 12 discard effects are pretty solid and I've found that the targeted discard (duress and thoughtseize) actually tend to be better than even hymn to tourach in this matchup. I also have been working a UBW storm list that uses cunning wish, chants and the like, so I'm pretty familiar with how a storm deck operates.

I haven't tested Elspeth in this deck, and I can certainly see her advantages, I just think she's too slow for my taste. If you're going for a more controlled variation though she may work out good for you, but again I prefer to stay as flexible as possible as to take on the strategy needed to beat the opposing deck.

Dzra

12-25-2010, 12:20 AM

Do you have a specific strategy or SBing plan against Countertop (I mainly see Thopters, but there's also a Painter/Grindstone)? I've never had problems losing to Countertop, but I end up drawing to them far more than I'd like. The problem is that we both usually end up in topdeck mode and stall out for long periods of time. I haven't tried my new SB plan against them yet (+4 Extirpate, +2 Cold-Eyed Selkie, +2 Deed), but outside of just encouraging them to play faster, what would you suggest?

sdematt

12-25-2010, 12:26 AM

Deed is REALLY good against Thopters, as are Basic Lands (to combat back to basics) and Engineered Plague on Thopters. Leyline of Sanctity stops Jace, as well. Basically, if you can drop serious disruption early or get rid of their combo, they only have Jace to win. Since you have 4-6 Vindicates and creatures, you should be okay. With regular CounterTop, blow it up ASAP, and lay out more threats than them. In terms of sideboarding, Deed is very good.

-Matt

Magicsk8ngenius

12-25-2010, 01:17 AM

Because I usually have a difficult time with the Zoo matchup, I tend to have at least 3, but usually 4 kitchen finks in the sideboard I always bring these in because they tend to run very few 3 drops. The finks is a threat that gets past balance and it helps in a few other ways in this matchup such as keeping you in the game when they have a big knight swinging at you. Usually a finks can add 3 turns to their clock, which a lot of times is enough to get out your own knight which tends to be about the same if not bigger. Also your knight can pull out the bojuka bog that you should be running.

Deed is a bomb of course and I usually run 2 in the side so those are good. I was playing 2x EE in the main which helped a lot. It's usually a great idea to drop EE or even Deed if possible preemptively. For instance if I know I'm playing against counterbalance (or standstill) and I can drop a Mox Diamond on turn 1 with a land, I'll hold onto the goyf or bob and drop the EE at 2. They tend to have a good amount of things other that CB that can be blow up at 2 such as goyf or the version you're seeing: thopter foundry. Against control decks you really need to be careful about your bob, and even more so in this matchup. An active bob wins you the game, that's almost a guarantee. You really do not want to drop out bob unless you know he's safe - after a thoughtseize removing the STP. Of course extirpate is gonna be awesome in removing sword and stopping that combo, but don't be afraid to snipe any other staple in the deck, especially if you have a vindicate to blow up thopter foundry later. The main thing that I aim for with extirpate is STP. If they have no STP and you get a couple guys out, they lose. I think the reason why people don't play the thopter combo anymore is because it's so easy to hate against it. You can attack the graveyard, which most legacy decks already have grave hate for the dredge matchup, and also through blowing up thopter foundry. K-grip is not used very often, but if these are the decks that you're having problems with, it sounds like K-grip is an acceptable answer in your meta.

Recently because of survival's dominance I've been running 2x pithing needle is the side which actually comes into play here too. This may sound crazy, but I take out my sensei's divining top and put in needle because it's usually going to name top. Honestly counterbalance isn't that much of a thorn in your side, it's the top that allows counterbalance to do anything. It's okay to lose a good chunk of life to bob in exchange for shutting down their soft lock and a good part of their deck. Also the needles come in handy in naming grindstone and thopter foundry again.

Also in the older list that I played at the GP I ran 2x Quasali in the main which as I said previously are about to come back into the list. It is really fun to drop a Mox Diamond then a Quasali on turn 1 vs CB. It's even pretty good second turn especially after a thoughtseize removing their STP. I can recall many games won by an lone exalted Quasali just swinging. If they drop a CB, the key here is to just keep swinging with the Quasali till they drop a threat of their own that outclasses it or if they try to kill the Quasali.

The Selkie is a very interesting idea that I've been thinking about trying out, just haven't really gotten around to it. I can really see it's benefits in the lists that run Noble Hierarch.

AggroSteve

12-25-2010, 07:19 AM

i have to tell you this.... first of all happy holidays to everyone^^

and than.... vengevine is not dead,... i am often looking into the UG vengevine / madness thread and now that survival is banned, there is more action in their thread than before and they have allready come up with new decklists running entomb, and practically being even a bit faster than the survival-lists, but also a bit more vulnerable, because they do not have the tutoring engine anymore, but actually i would not suspect their deck to go low on numbers because it is still a viable choice for every meta that can still race decks like zoo or other aggrodecks

practically i would wait a bit and see how the meta changes and only than applying some changes to the lists we are running, specially my sideboard extirpates will stick there forever^^

@ magicsk8ngenius: i was wondering how quasali performed compared to other possible choices for this slot,..... i was thinking of cutting verdicts for either quasali or doran (2-off)
did you test doran maybe?, tell me what you are thinking on this matter,.... thx in advance

Dzra

12-25-2010, 12:39 PM

I've been reading up on all the post-Survival decks too. Personally, I hope the deck does well, as I feel that banning Survival was the wrong move.

Magicsk8ngenius

12-25-2010, 12:59 PM

You're probably correct AggroSteve and I don't see an reason why it should leave the meta. I see the deck as still viable with a little work. They've still got Fauna Shaman and the ranger combo as well. I fully expect to see the little veggies hoping around still, but not nearly as powerful as they once were. Even so, you have extirpate, a card that you should never leave home without. (still not good enough to put in the main)

That's the main change that I consider all of the time, cutting verdicts for Quasali. Quasali is more versatile and can be either aggro or control or even both depending upon what the game state calls for. It has much more broad applications than the narrow minded Gerrard's Verdict. One thing that I do during testing is think about the cards in question while in your hand. In this case if you're playing a game and you've got a Gerard's Verdict in hand, imagine if it was instead a Quasali Pridemage, how would this change the current game state? Would it be more beneficial or detrimental? Verdict has the possibility of becoming a dead draw (less so than hymn because there are times where you can verdict yourself for a nice life boost if needed), and Quasali usually does not.

I've honestly never tested Doran and I don't even own any. I can see it being okay in a more aggro version of the deck, but I wouldn't want to play him. He's just a big vanilla guy that doesn't really add much to the deck other than fat. I think Tarmogoyf fills the same role as Doran and better. Do you really need 6 Tarmogoyfs? One of the main advantages of the rock is being as versatile as possible and adding vanilla dudes hinders this strategy. He's fringe playable, but I have yet found a need for him.

actually i am thinking the same thing, survival was a powerfull CA-engine, but survival with Vengevine was way to broken, and still vengevine without survival is still broken

@ Magicsk8ngenius: i think i will test doran first since my list is allmost identical to yours, with the demise being deed 1 and the 61th card being deed #2, so i think i do not need that much utility because of the sweepers main, and i feel safer with doran being a CMC 3 since i blow the bourd most times for 2 mana, .... but in your list i definitely would play quasali over doran

doran actually is not only fat... he helps the goblin, affinity, and a few other matchups due to his ability and his sice

Magicsk8ngenius

12-25-2010, 01:57 PM

I see, your reasoning makes sense, but here's the next problem I see: You've now got twelve 3 drops in the deck. I can see Doran's ability being a powerhouse against affinity, but honestly... affinity isn't a real deck. It's especially bad vs your list with 2 deeds in the main. It kinda helps against goblins, but I find the matchup to be pretty favorable anyways and the only guy it really nullifies of theirs is the piledriver which trades with any guy in your deck as well at the very least.

I'm at work for most of the day today (yes I got stuck working xmas day), and it is super slow so I'll probably be on these boards all day trying to stay occupied and not falling asleep, so keep the thread going!

Rainbow Maker

12-25-2010, 04:18 PM

I think doran is great, if you can find room for him. He is bigger than knight at the beginning of the game. pumps goyf, mystic, bop/hierarch if you run them. makes most creatures worse. There are exceptions rhox, predator etc. But it is a serious threat. It doesn't fold to graveyard hate.

sdematt

12-25-2010, 05:44 PM

I'm playing Doran in my more aggro build, an he's fine. Too bad he's a legend.

I'm interested in seeing how the new Glissa pans out, as he'd probably take Doran/E. Witness' space. Seems very good especially if you're running EE's and equipment. First strike deathtouch seems good to me :D

-Matt

AggroSteve

12-25-2010, 05:50 PM

rainbow maker, does make a point there..... it does not fold to gravehate.... well our other creatures are only half-affectet by gravehate though

done some testings now with doran instead of verdicts,.... and yes i got a problem with having to many 3-drops, just as Magicsk8ngenius predicted, and that is not good with the speed the deck needs and lets don't even speak about bob (specially since i love it to get 2 on board of possible,... if you got a divining top its just a bomb, even having 2 bobs im play will mostly cost you only 1 life per turn^^)
doran did not do in testings what i wanted, and was allmost to slow for a "allmost-vanilla"

after not being satisfied in goldfishing and that bit of testing i tried quasali in its place, .... initially i wanted verdict back, because of me adapting to other build with "6 hymn-effects", but actually now i have to say, quasali fits extremely well, and actually now our best 1st turn against gobbos is quasali, than swords on lackey, its awesome, he actually gives me the more aggression i was searching in doran, and some utility against a early vial from merfolk or goblins, and a counterbalance, i feel very fine now with quasali, and due to his utility i am thinking of moving my 2 MD deeds to the side as well to test 2x ghastly demise in their place, i can definitely see them fitting well into the deck

what were your expieriences with ghastly demise/ maybe path to exile main, to help swords out? (obviously i know all of the debate demise vs path)

got to work on my sideboard again though^^

i am as well very interested into glissa.... has anyone found a link or something?

Rainbow Maker

12-25-2010, 07:27 PM

i feel glissa will ultimately be too cute. It can recur ee, jitt, mox etc. but continually playing ee seems just as cumbersome as stoneforge mystic +equipment. Witness is great becuase of its versatility. O i want to get a vindicate, swords, creature, deed. All of our threats are "threats." goyf and knight are just silly big. Bob is one of the best ca engines ever. Pridemage has a lot of versatility. Can stop a goyf vs. goyf stalemate. Has an ability that is useful in most matchups. Witness can press anything. LD, spot removal, lands, discard. What does this Glissa do? recur 1-3 cards in your deck... I feel witness+deed+ volrath's stronghold is way better. Witness is easier on the mana requirements and will net CA as soon as it comes into play. I've been thinking I think it would be fine if you don't run diamonds to drop a knight for another threat.

Another thought is this. I think running mystic is fine. Yes it does take a lot of mana. But quite a few of our creatures aren't threats in the terms of p/t.
Goyf= big
knight=meh until later in the game(better if you run diamond)
bob(only 10 turns to get there big boy!!! maybe 8; i'll teach them to not crack their fetches)
pridemage(great card and there have been times where i have won due to the fact of it being a 3/3)

i'm not saying that i will run equipment, but it made my gobo match a walk in the park. also i have found that for the most part 2for 1 discard is only meh against gobos.
it seems with equipment you have less discard so your control matchup is worse, but as a result your aggro mathcup is amazing. However with the discard your control matchup becomes a whole lot easier.

I would also like to say i don't run diamonds in the current list i'm testing so as a result i can't get busted t1 plays. Which is in essence why 2 for 1 discard is so good in this deck. It negates the loss of the extra land with mox diamond.

Magicsk8ngenius

12-25-2010, 08:25 PM

I like the fact that it doesn't fold to grave hate, but usually if somebody brings in grave hate against me, this is a good thing. I recognize this as a noobie mistake. Here's a little secret that most of you probably know from experience: grave hate does next to nothing against us! Sure you can shrink our goyf/knight, but give it sometimes even as little as 1 turn and they both will be powered back up to sexy proportions. It is only okay to bring in grave hate against us if you've got some useless cards in your main deck that would otherwise do nothing against us. (can't think of any off the top of my head)

All I have to say in the Demise/Path section is I strongly prefer Demise as Path is anti-synergistic. Now with Vengevine's not the problem they were (they'll probably still exist but not as good) it really kills any reasons left to run path over demise.

I'm interested in this new Glissa, as I have always played 2x EE in this deck and it seems really strong against any creature deck too. The double green isn't optimal at least for my list, but it's definitely doable. I'll test with her more towards the set release as it won't be legal for a while.

SpikeyMikey

12-25-2010, 11:05 PM

The Selkie is a very interesting idea that I've been thinking about trying out, just haven't really gotten around to it. I can really see it's benefits in the lists that run Noble Hierarch.

I don't run Hierarch, but I do run Pridemage and a single Elspeth. Selkies, even as just Bobs 5 and 6, work very well, but when you pair them up with exalted or Elspeth, they end games very quickly. It's hard to lose when you've drawn 7 more cards than your opponent.