holdingoutforjacob wrote:Rosalie is an example of a strong woman in the books who was painted for so long as the "bad guy" and as selfish and mean. My entire point is that the strong female characters all have something "wrong" with them. Leah can't have kids and is heartbroken and angry and alone, Rosalie is mean, Victoria is a bad guy....

The more this discussion goes on, the harder time I having equating "strong women" and Rose, Leah, and Victoria (Victoria??)I'm not trying to upset you HOFJ, but can you explain to me why you think these women are strong?

--Rose, in human life and as a vampire was/is self-centered, self-serving and cruel at times. What about her is "strong"?

--Leah is still just a child, who is still mourning the loss of who she thought was the love of her life. In a lot of ways, she's reacting the same way Bella did when Edward left--except Bella turned her pain inward and Leah turned hers outward. She has plenty of life to live happily ever after...give her a chance.

--Victoria? Where do you see a strong character in Victoria? She is determined to kill Bella because her beau is gone...does that make her a strong woman, or just someone who wants revenge?

I'm gonna have to agree with amethyst here. I think Bella is the strong one. She has been through hell and back at least 7 times in the saga (Van; James; Edward leaving/Italy; Victoria/newborns; horrendous pregnancy; transformation; fear of annihilation) and she always came through each one with her sanity, calmness, love, caring, etc... in tacked!

Well [quoteThese aren't flaws in Bella. She can't control these things. But they bother me about the books as a whole, about the story as a whole. They tend to make me dislike Bella, but they aren't her fault. I am criticizing SM's writing style more than I am Bella. ][/quote] hofj

Its a fictional story and I do not see where she demeans women. I might even try and turn that around and say that Edward and Jacob being used by Bella. This should stir things. but Bella ran to Jacob for support and as her best friend and could not let go when Edward came back,, So only a strong women would get away with juggling 2 fantastic men Now really though I don't think bad of SM writing and I don't think she made her characters without any flaws, and that is reality and so yes I see Alice as strong and Bella to be fighting for her baby and everything. That is one strong women for us who have given birth can relate only a fraction of what Bella went through. If you don't like SM don't read her books. You can dislike a character but is it because she can't control things when she is in only 17 ?

She doesn't demean women, I never ever said that. I just said that it was interesting, to me, that the woman who gets everything she wants is classically feminine, while the women who are left wanting are not, they are stronger in a much more obvious way than Bella, and arguably stronger in general, and they have also stood up to Bella.

I see what you mean about Edward and Jacob, but I disagree. I think that she got away with it because they saw her as weak, and so they repeatedly forgive her and let stuff she does slide, because they both know she "needs" them.

I don't really get your point in the second paragraph of your post. I think being a mother, especially being a good one, is the hardest thing to do ever. Period. No questions asked. I don't like some of the messages that I pick up in the books, but I enjoy the story and I enjoy the characters.

I don't understand your question at all.

Rosalie is strong because she voices her opinions. She has her moral standards, she CAN take care of herself whether or not she chooses to, and she is also strong enough to stand up for what she believes is right, i.e. voting AGAINST Bella becoming a vampire because she didn't think it was right to give up humanity. But she's also strong enough to make herself vulnerable to possibly help another person, i.e. telling Bella her story in Eclipse. She definitely has her weaknesses, but she also has her voice. She doesn't hide behind others and rely on them to take care of her, and when the going gets tough, she can handle it. But again, as I said to amethyst, she really wasn't my main example.

Leah. I find it really offensive that because she's a "child" in your eyes (since when is twenty-some a child?) her pain and what she's been through don't mean anything. She's not ONLY lost Sam, but she lost him not because of anything that happened between the two of them but because of imprinting, and she lost him to her cousin. As far as she knows, or any of us know, without imprinting, she would still have Sam AND Emily. Apparently you think Sam was just another relationship, but it wasn't. It's made pretty clear in the books that it was a pretty darn serious relationship. She's also lost her father, become a wolf, had to deal with the thoughts of Sam about Emily and about her, watched Jacob, someone who she cares about, allow himself to be jerked around by Bella, who is breaking his heart by her intent to join the vampires. The very same vampires who showed up, triggered the werewolf gene which triggered Sam's change, which brought him to imprinting on Emily. She also knows that she DOESN'T have her whole life in front of her. She will never have children, as it stands. She has to grapple with her theory that she wasn't "feminine" enough. She has to wonder why she wasn't good enough to pass on the wolf gene. She doesn't know if she will ever imprint, and not only will it be rough on a relationship that she's a wolf and can't tell her partner, but there's always the fear that she will imprint and have to leave her significant other. So yeah, I figure her pain is a little bit more complex than Bella's. And she got through all that without collapsing the way Bella did, without leaning on other people, she didn't have a choice. Me, I would have left the rez and gone somewhere else. But she put up with her pain to take care of her mother and Seth. She's working through that. She's had to become strong in herself.

Victoria. She didn't just go on a fly off the handle attack on Bella and Edward. She put a lot of thought into and a lot of organization. Her strength was misdirected, maybe, but it was strength nonetheless.

Bella has gotten herself to Hell and been brought back by someone stronger and more capable than herself. I can think of only one example of her having strength herself, and that is her decision not to abort her pregnancy. She is strong only when she is dependent upon someone else, she has very little strength in her own right as far as I can see.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Rosalie is strong because she voices her opinions. She has her moral standards, she CAN take care of herself whether or not she chooses to, and she is also strong enough to stand up for what she believes is right, i.e. voting AGAINST Bella becoming a vampire because she didn't think it was right to give up humanity. But she's also strong enough to make herself vulnerable to possibly help another person, i.e. telling Bella her story in Eclipse.

I see your point on Rose, thanks.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Leah. I find it really offensive that because she's a "child" in your eyes (since when is twenty-some a child?) her pain and what she's been through don't mean anything. She's not ONLY lost Sam, but she lost him not because of anything that happened between the two of them but because of imprinting, and she lost him to her cousin. As far as she knows, or any of us know, without imprinting, she would still have Sam AND Emily. Apparently you think Sam was just another relationship, but it wasn't. It's made pretty clear in the books that it was a pretty darn serious relationship. She's also lost her father, become a wolf, had to deal with the thoughts of Sam about Emily and about her, watched Jacob, someone who she cares about, allow himself to be jerked around by Bella, who is breaking his heart by her intent to join the vampires. The very same vampires who showed up, triggered the werewolf gene which triggered Sam's change, which brought him to imprinting on Emily. She also knows that she DOESN'T have her whole life in front of her. She will never have children, as it stands. She has to grapple with her theory that she wasn't "feminine" enough. She has to wonder why she wasn't good enough to pass on the wolf gene. She doesn't know if she will ever imprint, and not only will it be rough on a relationship that she's a wolf and can't tell her partner, but there's always the fear that she will imprint and have to leave her significant other. So yeah, I figure her pain is a little bit more complex than Bella's. And she got through all that without collapsing the way Bella did, without leaning on other people, she didn't have a choice. Me, I would have left the rez and gone somewhere else. But she put up with her pain to take care of her mother and Seth. She's working through that. She's had to become strong in herself.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa! I NEVER said her pain and everything she's been through doesn't mean anything! And I thought she was still in high school. I haven't read the series in awhile but I always pictured her and Seth as teenagers. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. Being young DOES NOT lessen her pain any, BUT, she has to pick herself up and get on with her life, eventually. And if you ask me, Leah spreading her spite around the wolf's heads is pretty childish. Yeah, she's hurting, but is that really the way to heal? Maybe if she didn't do that, more of the pack would be willing to help her out with it.

What?! No, I do NOT think that she and Sam was "just another relationship". (quit putting words in my mouth, please ), BUT, wallowing in her sorrow and making everyone else suffer along with her is not the most "adult" thing to do. As bad as her pain is, she has GOT to realize that Sam and Emily are forever and she's going to have to start dealing with getting over her feelings---or learning to cope with them, if it's too hard to get over. She knows that imprinting is involuntary, so she has to know that Sam didn't do this on purpose to hurt her---he couldn't help it.

Why won't she EVER have children? Where does it say that she is baren? Leah just THINKS that. It doesn't make it so. Who is to say that female werewolves can't bear children/puppies? (sorry, just a little levity to break the tension). She could also stop being a werewolf and see if she can get pregnant that way.

Leah didn't collapse like Bella? Really? I beg to differ! As I said in my earlier post, she collapsed "outwardly" spewing all of her pain and hurt at everybody who would listen, and forcing other's (wolves) to. She's forcing people to let her lean on them by doing that. That is DEFINITELY collapsing. I can't agree with you on Leah. Yes, she's had some pretty hard things happen to her already, but I don't think she's handling them any better than Bella. But again, she's young--even if she is in her twenty's--she definitely has the potential to be a very strong woman.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Victoria. She didn't just go on a fly off the handle attack on Bella and Edward. She put a lot of thought into and a lot of organization. Her strength was misdirected, maybe, but it was strength nonetheless.

So, Victoria is a strong woman because she's a good planner/organizer? Sorry, I can't agree on that one either. She may very well be a strong woman, but I don't think we saw enough of her personality to determine that. All we saw was hate.

I think Rose has her weaknesses, in that she allows herself to be mean and nasty. Just to clarify that I agree with you there to some extent.

I'm pretty much sure that if you're not having your period you pretty much can't get pregnant. And Leah's not having her period. I don't know though, in the Twilight universe it seems the "rules" mean nothing.

I disagree about Leah not being strong. I think her strength shows in BD. She's kinda just a nasty witch in Eclipse, but in BD we see her working through some problems. I don't think it's quite fair to blame her for what she's thinking. We see her moving on in BD, and it takes her longer because she doesn't have the option of just shutting down until someone saves her the way Bella did.

Just because Sam didn't do it on purpose doesn't mean that it sucks any less. It makes it suck a quite a bit more to be honest. But I didn't get that she was angry with him for leaving her, I got that she was angry in general and she felt he had treated her badly when she changed.

I'm not saying that the way she handled herself was mature. I'm saying it was stronger than just shutting down or running away. In Breaking Dawn, her actions show a lot of strength, and a lot of independence. A perfect example is when Sam sends people to come get her, and instructs them to use his old nickname for her. And she, I believe, swears at them? Maybe childish, but a weak person would go running right back at the first sign of affection from him.

With Victoria, her strength is seen in her restraint and the fact that she doesn't just go out blindly into a confrontation, she's smart about it and she's determined to take them out, after all she does hunt Bella for two books.

I apologize, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth at all. But can you see how this:

--Leah is still just a child, who is still mourning the loss of who she thought was the love of her life. In a lot of ways, she's reacting the same way Bella did when Edward left--except Bella turned her pain inward and Leah turned hers outward. She has plenty of life to live happily ever after...give her a chance.

would lead me there? The "just a child" and "who she thought was the love of her life" parts??

I don't think we need to move it, I'm pretty much done. It's obvious we both have very strong opinions about it and neither will be swayed--although I see your points more--just don't agree with them.

And I made the "child" remark when I thought she was a teenager--I did not mean to lessen her feelings. And yes, she thought he was the love of her life (I think that's a pretty adult way of thinking). I didn't mean that as a put-down.

Good discussion! Thanks! I haven't had that much fun on here in a long time! I like to "think" and be challenged!

Can we talk about something else about Bella. In all the books I thought it was a little strange that Bella didn't have or refer to any friends in Pheonix. Does anyone have any idea's that a junior in high school doesn't have any friend from childhood when she was with her mom?

Bella mentioned at the beginning of TW when she first arrived in Forks, that she (and I'm paraphrasing here) never fit in anywhere. She said that if she couldn't fit in at a school of three thousand, how was she going to fit in here. So, I guess she didn't have any friends. Or not any close enough to miss enough to write to. *shrugs*

Yes but it just seem such a lonely life and then you see Edward having such a lonely life. It must have been dynasty. I also got from the book that Edward really never spoke to anyone at school but his family till he met Bella. It just seem so right that 2 people so alone just happened on each other in a small town in WA.