in response to additional questions about the spiritual state, he added

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relative to the spiritual state being pisces in general: 1st stage ... this reflects the inherentpolarity of pisces: virgo and thus the picking apart stuff , etc , etc, etc .... yet the first stage thru'decante' correlation is cancer.... thus the 'ego' that needs to progressively remember/ realize it'sorigin .... soul creates ego, god creates soul .. the natural trinity therein .... this comes to ahead,that is the evolutionary transition, in the second stage which is scorpio relative to the naturaldecante .... thus the false sense of ego power/ personnal identification with what has beeninwardly realized to date relative to progressive 'cosmic' realizations .. which of course leads tothat delusive ego being confronted and rehumilated in various ways which is the intent in thatsubstage ... so that finally the purity of the 3rd stage is arrived at : pisces itself ....

When you are trying to find linear correlations between the signs and stages you are looking at things too linearly and mechanically. These (the zodiac, the cycle of phases, evolutionary stages) are systems that MODEL reality - they are not reality itself. They have their own underlying principles and assumptions. ALL systems based on natural principles will come up with similar results, but each through their own system. Thus astrology, tarot, i ching all produce similar results. But you can't directly correlate i ching to western astrology. Nor can you correlate (as we have discussed) the cycle of phases to the zodiac. Nor can you directly correlate the evolutionary stages to the linear progression of the zodiac. The mind wants to go there because it would make it easier to remember all the information. But that is just not how it works.

Also, someone no doubt will now ask why the fire signs are missing from the list above, or what their role in all this is. Someone asked the question about fire signs at the same time the above questions were answered. Jeffrey did not answer it.

Hi Steve, thanks for your reply. Its good to know where linear works and where it doesn't. I find the archetypes are a reference point for my imagination , and helps to keep me grounded when I am just walking with what arises... so thank you for sharing.All the best, Heather

...Because it speaks so exquisitley to the pure devotional flavor of the spiritual stages --And truly to "it is in the intention" as I have read on here so many times.Perhaps many of you have already heard this poem. I know I try to hear it freshly every time.

It wasn't in this thread, but I can't find the thread it was in ... but somewhere a few years ago you were hammering away at me about "nothing in the chart has any bearing on a person's evolutionary stage". And I was hanging on to the last vestiges of "but surely if there is this or that signature it must have some reflection, even if indicating in the smallest of ways, that the person might be in evo stage 'x' " etc etc. This was because I was new to EA, and still subconsciously coming from the traditional western astrology paradigm.

Over the last while I've been forced to evaluate the evolutionary stage & substage of several people I'm karmaically connected with, in order to clarify my ongoing relationship to/with them. This has taken a lot of internal thought and contemplation. And it's made it totally clear to me, yet again, how the evolutionary stage of a person and their chart are totally completely different things.

What you said did steer me away from it (reluctantly), and I have always operated on that basis since, but it's absolutely as clear as day now - it's become something I know now as my own experience at a core level.

somewhere a few years ago you were hammering away at me about "nothing in the chart has any bearing on a person's evolutionary stage". And I was hanging on to the last vestiges of "but surely if there is this or that signature it must have some reflection, even if indicating in the smallest of ways, that the person might be in evo stage 'x' " etc etc. This was because I was new to EA, and still subconsciously coming from the traditional western astrology paradigm.

Over the last while I've been forced to evaluate the evolutionary stage & substage of several people I'm karmaically connected with, in order to clarify my ongoing relationship to/with them. This has taken a lot of internal thought and contemplation. And it's made it totally clear to me, yet again, how the evolutionary stage of a person and their chart are totally completely different things.

What you said did steer me away from it (reluctantly), and I have always operated on that basis since, but it's absolutely as clear as day now - it's become something I know now as my own experience at a core level.

So just wanted to say thank you.

blessingsUpasika

thank you for posting this, and for sharing your thoughts. What you are saying is a great example of deconditioning through actual life experience, leading to personal evolution. What I have learned (and continue learning) is EA works because it is aligned with, is a symbolic expression of, how life actually works. Beyond theory and intellectual constructs. Just, bottom line, how it actually is. So, as we increasingly see that, we see the principles EA expresses playing out in our lives. No astrology is required - they are simply there. To me one of the main gifts EA offers is it lets us objectify what we are experiencing - to step back from our subjective perspective and simply see what is going on without personal emotional investment.

The way I look at it, a natal chart is a blueprint, a script. That script can be fleshed out in many ways - each Soul is going to play it out differently, based on its past, its desire nature, and its evolutionary station. So a first stage consensus and a first stage spiritual Soul could be born at the same moment. They have entirely different reasons for picking that moment and they are going to play that script out quite differently. And yet, there will be similarities. Jeffrey quoting Sri Yukteswar in the beginning of Pluto Vol 1 - "A child is born on that day and at that hour when the celestial rays are in mathematical harmony with his individual karma".

A friend of mine with interest in astrology has recently met someone on line she doesn't know, who was born two minutes after her, same day and year, 700 miles apart in the US. They are having quite a time comparing notes. They are finding its as I said above - they have uncanny similarities, yet they each have fleshed that script out in their own unique and different, yet similar, ways. (because of the birth mileage difference there's a difference in their ascendants, which shifts the house on some planets).

Thanks for sharing your ongoing evolution Upasika. I'm glad to hear that what I "hammered"" you with wound up being of value.take careSteve

I just noticed this thread and have been reading thru it. Can you describe more about 'feeling very small inside'...like a pebble of sand JWG talks about in Pluto book?

When I consider 1st stage spiritual from reading the descriptions, I get a sense of perfection, like a devotee of Amma Chi. Are there more characteristics about this stage. I recall a thread from a couple years back to talked about the separating desires of this stage, yet I don't recall what they are? Maybe I shall start at the beginning of this thread to see if I can find it.

"I'm glad to hear that what I "hammered"" you with wound up being of value."

Thanks for your reply, and it was of value really even at the beginning, because I had to test it out over time to see if it was true (for me), which resulted in seeing that it actually is.

"A friend of mine with interest in astrology has recently met someone on line she doesn't know, who was born two minutes after her, same day and year, 700 miles apart in the US. They are having quite a time comparing notes. They are finding its as I said above - they have uncanny similarities, yet they each have fleshed that script out in their own unique and different, yet similar, ways. (because of the birth mileage difference there's a difference in their ascendants, which shifts the house on some planets)."

That's also an interesting case - relates a bit to the "identical twin" scenario maybe. Perhaps in those cases, where even the houses are probably almost identical too, the evolutionary stage would be sometimes the only or major point of difference? (...assuming they were different souls, not twin souls etc which would be probably be pretty low likelihood?)

Can you describe more about 'feeling very small inside'...like a pebble of sand JWG talks about in Pluto book?

When I consider 1st stage spiritual from reading the descriptions, I get a sense of perfection, like a devotee of Amma Chi. Are there more characteristics about this stage. I recall a thread from a couple years back to talked about the separating desires of this stage, yet I don't recall what they are? Maybe I shall start at the beginning of this thread to see if I can find it.

The 1st stage of the Spiritual's been described as Virgo-like. The Soul has gotten itself across the line between 3rd stage individuated and stepped into 1st stage spiritual. That process has required a great deal of humbling. Based on how I heard it once described, I have this mental picture of it. The Soul has spent countless lifetimes individuating itself from the consensus. It has been a hard-fought and hard-won attainment. There have been many scars and wounds, and that Soul has reached a point of feeling it knows itself. And yet, increasingly in 3rd stage individuated there comes this sense of "there must be more than this" because all the great plans about how to reorganize society for the betterment of all are just not creating the changes the Soul was sure would happen when people saw how much better these new improvements would make things for everyone. Any sort of major change like a shift from individuated to spiritual in general is initiated or triggered by some highly shocking or demotivating (disillusioning) experiences. Its just not working the way I thought it would. Now what? This leads to some very deep Soul searching, where the Soul has to face it doesn't know how to do any more than what it has been doing - that is the humbling - and in a sense is brought to its knees. It sees that all of its hard-won individuality is not enough. And that is part of the resistance in early 1st stage Spiritual - it sees it has to surrender or give up what it's worked so hard to attain. Or at least it appears that way to that Soul at that time. There is inner knowing within that Soul of the direction it must head in, in order to evolve. And yet, resistance to that knowing based on the usual principle of familiarity equals security, and this change requires letting go of what has constituted security. Its the transition into that place where the outer work and behaviors have to progressively be aligned with that inner direction, and that requires having to release trying to control one's destiny - feeling I must provide for myself as no one else is going to do it, which has been the evolutionary lesson of countless lives - the truth of that. Suddenly now I am asked to let go of that and learn to trust that through following my natural inner impulses, God/Goddess somehow are going to provide for my needs (I of course have to act on the inner impulses of what I am supposed to be doing in place of spending all my time fending for my own survival - I can't just sit on the couch thinking about God, watching TV, thinking money and food are going to be left on my front porch because I am now so holy). It is scary to make that step - we have ample practical evidence it doesn't work that way. As we gradually start taking those steps we start seeing this very principle play out in the life, that it really truly does work when one stays aligned with inner intent. Then one gets a sense of how long they have been clueless that this even existed - the principle is universal truth. The Soul through its personas just has forgotten this and has lived in other ways. That too is humbling. Awareness that one is one of 7 billion humans and billions of members of all other species on this planet, and that the planet itself, and even our whole galaxy, are microscopic in relation to the cosmos as a whole, and then we are talking only one dimension, a physical universe. Gradually one starts realizing the only thing that really makes any sense is to start living to serve the greater whole - everything else winds up feeling meaningless sooner or later. And then one sees how inconsistent one still is in their commitment to live to serve that greater whole, back and forth back and forth. And that further increases the sense of feeling very small - clueless even. And yet, as the inner commitment deepens, a feeling of deep sincerity strengthens - I may be clueless much of the time but at least I am sincere - and that counts for a lot.

One must be careful about using words like "perfection". "When I consider 1st stage spiritual from reading the descriptions, I get a sense of perfection..." There is no perfection on this planet, and its not even possible. Perfection cannot exist in a polarity reality whose basis is to evolve. The very principle of evolution is proof there is not perfection. There is nothing more to evolve to when one has reached perfection. And the principle of evolution, in every way, clearly underlies everything on this planet.

The idea of perfection is the root principle in masochism, because we compare where we are to an ideal (Pisces) of perfection, which is an IDEAL, not a reality. In relation to the ideal (perfection) we can never measure up, for not one of the 7 billion humans does. This, in a masochist, then leads to a sense of guilt, for not being perfect enough, and a need to atone for what one has done that is less than one's definition of perfect. This becomes a repeating pattern of guilt and the need to atone, and attracting in others who have guilt and rather than a need to atone for what they have done "wrong", a need to get back at, punish, those who have made them feel guilty, for they know they have done nothing wrong its all someone else's fault. Such Souls have a need to punish, and masochists have a need to atone. Part of atoning is a sense of feeling inadequate or unworthy, which often creates a subconscious need to punish oneself, which can be actualized by drawing in external people with a need to punish others, who are quite happy to fill the masochist's need to be punished. The combined attraction leads to very dysfunctional interactions and relationships. The underlying basis of this dynamic is a belief that perfection is possible and indeed required, and a deep awareness that I am not at all perfect. Its extremely important to internalize that perfection in a body is never attainable. The standard to judge self against is not am I perfect, but am I committed to making consistent ongoing progress (and taking the necessary ongoing steps/changes), even through inevitable temporary setbacks. First stage spiritual is NOT perfect. Neither is 3rd stage spiritual. They represent degrees of refinement towards an ideal, the gradual exhaustion of separating desires. Realizing one is not going to be perfect in this life, while still holding an ideal to be that, is another source of increasing humility.Steve

That's also an interesting case - relates a bit to the "identical twin" scenario maybe. Perhaps in those cases, where even the houses are probably almost identical too, the evolutionary stage would be sometimes the only or major point of difference? (...assuming they were different souls, not twin souls etc which would be probably be pretty low likelihood?)

Well a difference in evolutionary stage would certainly be a point of difference. But its really important to keep in mind we have a mainly invisible incredibly long past that we project into every "new" moment. And we are shaped by that past - our very conception of "me" is mainly based on our individual past, filtered through the conditions and experiences of the present lifetime. So even if the two people have a very similar evolutionary stage they're still going to breathe life into the very similar script in very different ways. We really are, every one of us, truly unique. That is simultaneously a great gift, and also the source of a lot of our human sense of aloneness.

Well a difference in evolutionary stage (of identical twins) would certainly be a point of difference. But its really important to keep in mind we have a mainly invisible incredibly long past that we project into every "new" moment. And we are shaped by that past - our very conception of "me" is mainly based on our individual past, filtered through the conditions and experiences of the present lifetime. So even if the two people have a very similar evolutionary stage they're still going to breathe life into the very similar script in very different ways...

Thanks for pointing that out Steve, I like the way you put it. In that light I suppose it couldn't be any other way, could it. I've never been involved with identical twins but if I ever had to read their charts I'd now look for those differences on the subtle and also deeper levels - I'd have a keener sense of what I was looking for, and then hopefully be able to see how exactly the same chart was working differently in each case. Thanks.

Thanks for all your dialogue above, it was very helpful and also reminded me of some recent thoughts I have had regarding the concept of "perfection."

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First stage spiritual is NOT perfect. Neither is 3rd stage spiritual. They represent degrees of refinement towards an ideal, the gradual exhaustion of separating desires. Realizing one is not going to be perfect in this life, while still holding an ideal to be that, is another source of increasing humility.

Through my own spiritual path and experience the ultimate nature of mind/awareness/source appears to be beyond what a human being can even label; beyond thought and language, yet inseparable from our experience of being. So if this is the case, then the very concept of what is perfect and what is not perfect becomes irrelevant since our ultimate nature is beyond this form of conceptualization. This ultimate nature as taught in EA, is represented by Neptune, which of course has an intangibility than cannot be defined. We also know through the teachings of EA that all the other archetypes are contained within Neptune/12th house, which again represents the inseparability of who we are.

I speak about this because I sometimes feel that by saying we are not perfect, we actually create a psychology of masochism within a person. Holding an ideal to become perfect, when in fact, EA teaches that source itself is not perfect, seems an impossible and fruitless task. How can striving towards an ideal of non-perfection not create a feeling of unworthiness and pointlessness? The humility comes in realizing this this but I also feel that humility is a result of knowing that we are not separate from each other, and having compassion for the human condition which strives in great pain and conflict to be that which it already is.

I have heard teachers say that we are perfect, that there is nothing we need do but rest and recognize our true nature. I'm not saying I agree or believe this any more than the notion of non-perfection. I simply recognize in myself that I do not know. If there is no concept of perfection, then non-perfection itself is perfection. I've also struggled with the projected ideas of others that focusing on past lives/karma etc is an unnecessary indulgence to thoughts and emotions that really serve no purpose other than to keep us attached to a misguided idea of inseparability. Again, I neither agree or disagree. However, what I feel I have grasped over the last year or so is a deeper understanding of the planetary functions of Jupiter and Neptune. All of what I am writing of course is my Jupiter speaking/intuiting despite what I am trying to convey, which is my Neptune. As EA teaches, the intuition of Jupiter can be the truth, and also the distortion of the truth. The transmission of Neptune is the ultimate truth - yet we can never really know Neptune (except for an experiential perception that cannot be defined). For me, this is where the humility comes from. My experience in resting my mind, which consequently rests my feelings, emotions, and body, gives me more access to a direct Neptunian transmission that comes via Jupiter. It feels like intuiting the next action in a way that has nothing to do with the me (ego) that is anything but pure Neptune (Source). Also, I feel that opening to Neptune in this way accelerates the exhaustion and dissolution of separating desires. This way I feel guided by Source and develop a trust that I will be provided with what I need, to do what I need to do. A pure Jupiterian intuition can be a purely egoic reaction which is not beneficial, or a result of, my ultimate nature.

What I have found helpful and liberating for myself and many people around me, is an understanding that all the archetypes that play out in our chart (Aries-Aquarius), are an inseparable part of our true nature (Source/Neptune). And since this is the case, there is nothing wrong with them! And more importantly, nothing needs to be changed or perfected about them! As astrologers we know there is no running away from the chart, but again as EA teaches, there are beneficial ways in which the archetypes play out, and distorted ways in which they play out. This to me emphasizes the beauty with which creation evolves, and the choices we make to liberate ourselves from any belief that we are perfect or not perfect. I mention all this as a typical Pluto in the 11th house among a group of people that on some level do not see the value in EA. I of course do and am always thankful to Jeffrey from the bottom of my heart for sharing this teaching which has served as a true transmission to my soul and path in life. I share these feelings about "we are not perfect" purely because I see them as a road block to my personal understanding of our true nature, and also because it becomes a belief that is a turn off to people that could gain a great deal from EA. I feel the greatest way I can serve myself and those around me is to share EA in a way that is recognized as a path to the truth, rather than dismiss them or parts of the teaching due to clashing Jupiters

To start, its important that you (and anyone) follows the truth you know and find within yourself. As is implied in what you wrote about the nature of Neptune, all of our human truths are relative truths.

One thing I found not addressed in what you wrote is you referred much to Source (Neptune) and also somewhat to personality (Cancer), but did not mention Soul/Pluto/Scorpio/8th house at all. I happen to have Pluto in the 8th house, and so am wired to be attuned to the reality of Soul. I'm not suggesting anything you said is wrong. I am just attempting to add a few pieces to what you wrote.

The Soul is the bridge between the human and what you refer to with "Neptune". The Soul CREATES the human being, for its own evolutionary purposes, just as Neptune creates the Souls for its evolutionary purposes. That is why the focal point of everything in EA is Pluto, the Soul, and not Neptune, which is not really knowable in human form. Our work is to evolve our Souls, through the vehicle of our human natures. We CAN know our Soul, as opposed to knowing Neptune, and we are here as Steve and Heidi BECAUSE of our Souls - that is the point of our human evolutionary journey. In relation to Soul and the Soul's human journey, what I said about perfection and imperfection is quite relevant.

I have heard discussions about whether what EA calls imperfect is in the greater picture in fact perfect even though it is experienced as imperfect. I find these are discussions over the meaning of words. To me they miss the greater point that the words, limited as they must be, are trying to make. They are a metaphor. Day to day reality is very few (if any) humans are having an ongoing life they would describe as perfect. That is not debatable. And the patriarchal teachings of Divine Perfection cause many of these people to compare themselves to the unattainable patriarchal ideal of Divine Perfection vs their obvious human imperfection. As a result they judge themselves as inadequate, unworthy, less than, not good enough. And THAT is the cause of most of the masochistic patterns in people that I have encountered.

This begins with my own life history. My life changed radically after first encountering the EA perspective of God as an imperfect force seeking its own perfection. I felt more liberated and validated than I ever had in my life. And now that I am inwardly allowed to counsel others, somehow or other I attract many many people who have that issue (isn't that odd...)

Almost everyone I have ever counseled on these issues, people with a similar conditioned orientation to feeling inadequate as a result of not measuring up to the ideal they'd been taught was the goal, has felt liberation on realizing what these words about imperfection vs perfection imply in their life. Why would a perfect God create imperfect creations - what is the point? How can I be more perfect than that which created me? Many times I have seen eyes light up - "You mean I am just OK as I am?" Patterns of many lifetimes begin cracking open before our eyes. That is both my personal experience, and the experience of many people I have counseled.

I also want to say that whether you call it imperfection or perfection, its a METAPHOR, a symbol.

If we are saying the same thing but using different words and tripping over each other's definitions of words, then please, throw my metaphor out and use whatever works for you and your clients.

The metaphor's intent is to make people AWARE of the causes of their masochism, and to create a way to break those patterns. I have experienced it very effectively doing that. The last thing its intended for is to create new masochism. If using that metaphor would create additional masochism for you or your clients, for God's sake, don't use it!Steve

I've never been involved with identical twins but if I ever had to read their charts I'd now look for those differences on the subtle and also deeper levels - I'd have a keener sense of what I was looking for, and then hopefully be able to see how exactly the same chart was working differently in each case.

Kristin Fontana has a (fraternal) twin sister. She contributed a chapter on twins to the book edited by Rose Marcus, "Insights into Evolutionary Astrology" which is very much about what you just said. She didn't say so in the book but the example charts she used are her own case. If you like, I can ask Kristin if she is willing to participate in this discussion and add her personal experience of twins charts.Steve