Take a four year old Jewish girl killed in a concentration camp in 1944. By Christian Mythology she is also doomed to an eternity of torment.

The good Christian will say that God has a Plan. The Plan is fixed. We know this for He is working towards Judgement Day that has a few conditions attached before it will come. God, however, allows us to make many choices freely or He can direct us in major ones to continue His Plan.

The dead child is dead because it was God’s Plan, as laid out in the Bible to have Jews killed.[1]

At all other points, she had free will and could have accepted Jesus, after all, she was living in a Christian country. It would not have stopped her from dying but at least she would have gone to heaven.

(I have an argument as to whether Jews go to heaven or not, but that is for another thread.)

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 07:16:55 AM by Graybeard »

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

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According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?

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According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

V, here is a list of historians and writers that lived in close proximity and that lived during the supposed life time of Jesus. All lived with in a 100 year span of him. Not one of them ever mentions him. Do you not find this odd? I know I do, looking at it with an open mind. The couple you have mentioned above, you should look up. They have all been debunked.

This list does not seem to be correct - Josephus does indeed mention Jesus. There is some dispute regarding the authenticity of the passage where he mentions it, but this seems to be mostly from people who do not believe in a historical Jesus.

If you have time, read what Josephus wrote about Jesus in his Testamonius Flavianum, and make sure to include the surrounding paragraphs. The paragraph about Jesus is written as though the writer is a Christian, not a Jew like Josephus was. It seems to have been placed into his text at a later date, not written by him. Other things that may strike a person as as odd is that there is no mention of this paragraph before the 4th century, the continuity is broken by this paragraph, Jesus is not mentioned in the table of contents and Josephus doesn't write anything else about Jesus.

If you have time, read what Josephus wrote about Jesus in his Testamonius Flavianum, and make sure to include the surrounding paragraphs. The paragraph about Jesus is written as though the writer is a Christian, not a Jew like Josephus was. It seems to have been placed into his text at a later date, not written by him. Other things that may strike a person as as odd is that there is no mention of this paragraph before the 4th century, the continuity is broken by this paragraph, Jesus is not mentioned in the table of contents and Josephus doesn't write anything else about Jesus.

Also, isn't the TF in middle of a list of bad things that happened to Israel?

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"In the end theologians are jealous of science, for they are aware that it has greater authority than do their own ways of finding “truth”: dogma, authority, and revelation. Science does find truth, faith does not. " - Jerry Coyne

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability. She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

At what value is this Age of Accountability, and where is it mentioned in your bible?

You claim it is greater than 4. Is it also greater than 8? Less than 15? I'm interested in your math.

god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

Of course God loves all children. Especially those he set the two wild bears on.

This has absolutely no biblical support and you made it up on the spot because you're incredulous to the logical implications of your religious ideology if it were taken to be 'real'.

Why would you expect your answer, based in such grounds of arbitrary make believe, to be taken seriously by anyone else?

Why would you expect others to engage in the same level of intellectual dishonesty you just demonstrated for us in order to take your answer seriously?

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

hmm, your god (if it actually would exist) doesn't seem to love children considering he supposedly kills them painfully in a world-wide flood, a blast of "fire" at two cities, every time his chosen people annihilate another tribe, if their parents do something god doesn't like, etc etc etc. We also have that there is no way to be saved unless one consciously accepts JC as savior. That seems to demonstrate your claim that "all children go to heaven" is unbiblical and simply more Christian wishful thinking.

I see that you are trying to use the "age of responsiblity" excuse that Christians often try to invoke when they realize their god is a very nasty primitive god. Of course, you can't actually tell us what age that magically would be.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

Why doesn't he just save them the pain and suffering and create them directly in heaven? Why must they suffer at all if they are not accountable?

god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

Where there is fate, there is no free will. Where there is predetermination, there is no free will. Where there is an omniscient god with all foreknowledge, there is no free will. When will you fools ever get that ?

Free will is a myth (just like your god). It's a religious term created to dupe gullible people like yourself into thinking that you have a choice and say in your supposed future afterlife existence. The only thing that you have to fall back on in that belief however, are some vague references in a 2000 yr. old story book that were made by a rebellious rabbinical teacher whose name is described as jesus. That's it, that's all you've got, mere ancient words from an undeniably shoddy and highly suspect piece of ancient Hebrew historical fiction.

You can save your elaborations.

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"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

If you have time, read what Josephus wrote about Jesus in his Testamonius Flavianum, and make sure to include the surrounding paragraphs. The paragraph about Jesus is written as though the writer is a Christian, not a Jew like Josephus was. It seems to have been placed into his text at a later date, not written by him. Other things that may strike a person as as odd is that there is no mention of this paragraph before the 4th century, the continuity is broken by this paragraph, Jesus is not mentioned in the table of contents and Josephus doesn't write anything else about Jesus.

Indeed. It's been pretty conclusively shown that Josephus was not the writer of that particular passage. It appears to have been a stealth edit by someone who wanted to 'prove' that Jesus was important enough for a historian like Josephus to write about.

god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

We've already gone over this in this thread. "Age of accountability" means that one moment before it, perfect salvation; one most after, eternal damnation. So it was a 13, 4 month and 5 day year old girl instead....the whole analogy still stands.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

hmm, your god (if it actually would exist) doesn't seem to love children considering he supposedly kills them painfully in a world-wide flood, a blast of "fire" at two cities, every time his chosen people annihilate another tribe, if their parents do something god doesn't like, etc etc etc. We also have that there is no way to be saved unless one consciously accepts JC as savior. That seems to demonstrate your claim that "all children go to heaven" is unbiblical and simply more Christian wishful thinking.

I see that you are trying to use the "age of responsiblity" excuse that Christians often try to invoke when they realize their god is a very nasty primitive god. Of course, you can't actually tell us what age that magically would be.

nor can they provide any proof....even a bible passage...where this age of accountability stuff comes from

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

i did not write this but i agree "The age of accountability is a concept that teaches those who die before reaching the age of accountability are automatically saved, by God’s grace and mercy. The age of accountability is a belief that God saves all those who die before reaching the ability to make a decision for or against Christ. Thirteen is the most common number given for the age of accountability, based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13. However, the Bible gives no direct support to the age of 13 always being the age of accountability. It likely varies from child to child. A child has passed the age of accountability once he or she is capable of making a faith decision for or against Christ.

With the above in mind, also consider this: Christ's death is presented as sufficient for all of mankind. First John 2:2 says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” This verse is clear that Jesus' death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ's death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God’s applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing.

The one passage that seems to identify with this topic more than any other is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. The context of these verses is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded to this by grieving, mourning, and praying for the child. But once the child was taken, David's mourning ended. David's servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, “What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” David's response was, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” David's response indicates that those who cannot believe are safe in the Lord. David said that he could go to the child, but that he could not bring the child back to him. Also, and just as important, David seemed to be comforted over this. In other words, David seemed to be saying that he would see the child (in heaven), though he could not bring him back.

Although it is possible that God applies Christ's payment for sin to those who cannot believe, the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject about which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. God’s applying Christ’s death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His love and mercy. It is our position that God applies Christ's payment for sin to young children and those who are mentally handicapped, since they were not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior, but again we cannot be dogmatic. Of this we are certain: God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever He does is always right and good." http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html

Why doesn't he just save them the pain and suffering and create them directly in heaven? Why must they suffer at all if they are not accountable?

if you don't believe what I'm about to type then that's okay. hmm... well the world is full of murder and poverty and starving people right? well, as i understand, the world is in calamity because of a guy who ate some bad fruit. we suffer because of his bad choice and why doesn't god just create children directly in heaven? all humans are born in sin, and that includes infants. as infants, we are guilty of sin, and since human nature is sinful, no one not even them can make it into heaven, however, because god (that you may not believe in) loves us so much he sent his son Jesus to die for the sins of the world. then that's where age comes in. if you die before you are able to choose to believe or not then god will accept you. it is said that only Christians go to heaven, but the exception is those who didn't have the chance to believe or not. since Jesus' blood can cover the sins of everyone, those who died before having the ability to believe or not are saved through Jesus' blood and gods grace and mercy. also, on another note, the bible in revelations says that the glory of heaven is much greater than the suffering we endure here on earth and this suffering is nothing compared to the everlasting love and glory of god in heaven. Revelation 21:4 (NIV)

4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

No, but you don’t have much to work with. Your version of what the bible means is just one of many. So, if Adam and eve’s actions damned us, who’s fault was that to have let a snake (who may or may not be satan) into a garden with two people who had no idea of what good and evil are?

We have a god that damns everyone for the actions of others. Is this fair? Would you punish someone for something they didn’t do? If you wouldn’t why should this god?

You claim that human nature is sinful. Well, who caused that to happen? Yep, your god by making us this way. So we get punished for your god’s mistakes.

Your god then proceeded to try covenants, laws, etc before it finally got around to deciding that it needs a blood sacrifice to clean up its own mess. This isn’t love, this is damage control.

Then your nonsensical claims about age having anything to do with it. If someone dies before accepting JC consciously in your bible, they go to hell. This includes children, because, as you said, they are evil sinful creatures. There is no “get out of jail free card” for children because of age in the bible. You only have your wishful thinking because you know it’s a bad thing to punish someone who is innocent. So you make up things about your god and ignore the inconvenient parts of your bible.

AS for revelation, that’s one of my favorite parts. Have you actually read your bible, grasszilla? Do you know that in Revelation, that God kills all evil peole and JC reigns for an “eon” over earth with all of the believers. But for some reason, your god *intentionally* allows Satan back on earth to corrupt more people. All of these people who were perfectly fine until God decides he needs to kill more people and damn them. Golly how nice is that?

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Okay ... grasszilla, obviously you believe this and I don't. But my question is, do you agree with this?

I see a vast number of problems with this god scenario of yours. A few:

1) Do you think it's fair to punish every descendant of the humans who originally sinned before they're even born? When the hell did I ever agree to this? I didn't sin ... this all happened before I was even born.

2) Couldn't god simply forgive humanity without having to send his son to be tortured to death? I mean, he makes the rules right? He couldn't just change them? What's the deal with this human sacrifice?

3) You have conflicting ideas about children here. You say they are sinners but then god gives them a free pass if they die early. That makes no sense. He is supposed to be omniscient, doesn't he know in advance the kid is gonna die? Why not give him the free pass to heaven before the kid has to suffer through a disease-ridden life of misery and pain (I'm talking about the 22,000 children who die each day). That's 8 million children each year!

4) You say human nature is sinful. Well if you believe that god created us and that he is omniscient (and he makes the rules), then he is directly responsible for us being this way. He created us and knew full well in advance that we would break his rules. Why would he punish his creation for doing exactly what he knew it would do?

Then, the 66% of the earth's population that is not christian and is in adulthood is fucked because they were never exposed to christianity? (I'm assuming being a christian of any denomination is good enough for salvation here).

So 4 billion people walking the earth today are hellbound? Why can't he just forgive everyone, spare them the pain and change their nature to be compatible with his rules?

So even if your god appeared to me and proved his existence, I would feel nothing but fear and utter disgust and what a sadistic fuck he is.

Luckily, he does not exist and humanity can take action to help the millions of children who are dying every year.

God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever He does is always right and good."

So given that he created the whole universe, including evil, eveything he does is good. Creating evil is a good thing.

AND YOU WONDER WHY WE QUESTION THIS CRAP????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The original post I made still stands as correct, except we can change the age of the girl to whatever your magic "age of accountability" argument ad hoc throws into the mix

« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 04:24:07 PM by Hatter23 »

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Take a four year old Jewish girl killed in a concentration camp in 1944. She followed what their parents told her to, was rounded up by the government, then killed. She did not have the freewill to not choke on the gas. She did not have the freewill not to be burned and turned into a stinking cloud of death above Auchwitz. By Christian Mythology she is also doomed to an eternity of torment, though said God could have appeared to her in her dreams. Could have had the Camp Gaurds realize what they were doing and open the gates, fall down, and weep in shame. He could have allowed the Allies to have arrived two year earlier and liberate the camp. None of this happened. That is the Deity you worship Christians. We do not.

It is clear to us, that no action is coming from this Deity because it is fictional.

Appearing before us would no more take away freewill than prisoners, knowing they are in prison, and knowing they are observed by gaurds, still do acts that are forbidden in prison. I've worked in prisons and it was a daily occurance. So knowledge of right and wrong, observation, and consequences does not prevent freewill.

when i went to an episcopal church in san clemente it was explained to me that children and anyone who isn't mentally sound or has never even heard of jesus would be forgiven and allowed into heaven. So basically lost tribes, the mhmr and children will all be granted passage into heaven.

Take a four year old Jewish girl killed in a concentration camp in 1944. She followed what their parents told her to, was rounded up by the government, then killed. She did not have the freewill to not choke on the gas. She did not have the freewill not to be burned and turned into a stinking cloud of death above Auchwitz. By Christian Mythology she is also doomed to an eternity of torment, though said God could have appeared to her in her dreams. Could have had the Camp Gaurds realize what they were doing and open the gates, fall down, and weep in shame. He could have allowed the Allies to have arrived two year earlier and liberate the camp. None of this happened. That is the Deity you worship Christians. We do not.

It is clear to us, that no action is coming from this Deity because it is fictional.

Appearing before us would no more take away freewill than prisoners, knowing they are in prison, and knowing they are observed by gaurds, still do acts that are forbidden in prison. I've worked in prisons and it was a daily occurance. So knowledge of right and wrong, observation, and consequences does not prevent freewill.

when i went to an episcopal church in san clemente it was explained to me that children and anyone who isn't mentally sound or has never even heard of jesus would be forgiven and allowed into heaven. So basically lost tribes, the mhmr and children will all be granted passage into heaven.

so we add a playmate...or even a gaurd talking about Jesus for 5 minutes....still an ad hoc argument

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

when i went to an episcopal church in san clemente it was explained to me that children and anyone who isn't mentally sound or has never even heard of jesus would be forgiven and allowed into heaven. So basically lost tribes, the mhmr and children will all be granted passage into heaven.

which isn't biblical at all, and I suspect this is because they didn't have our more tolerant and educated attitude. Again, science and secular society is always many steps before religion and religion always has to catch up.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

(I have an argument as to whether Jews go to heaven or not, but that is for another thread.)

Frankly, I'd prefer the Jewish Heaven, they probably have the best corned beef on rye...

Except no provolone to go on that...but oh well.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.