I sadly can't comment on how heroics were at the start of Cata because i started playing again at the end of Cata after leaving at the end of Wrath.

Heroics then required CC, strategy, interrupt assignments, even dps thresholds. These things failed miserably in pugs where people just wanted to bounce around in mindless happy fun time and pretend standing in fire was a dps gain and dispels and interrupts were not even worth hotkeying. As a result the forums flooded with complaints about how difficult and time consuming heroic dungeons were and blizzard responded by going back to the Wrath model. Dungeons arent really meant to be meaningful content, they are a vehicle to get valors and gear up to go raid. Personally I'm fine with this, I'd rather things be easy for the weakest link in the group then wipe over and over cause the tank, healer and a DPS didn't get standing in "Harvest" on Foe Reaper, with its brutal looking animation, will kill you...

World 700, world 2000 down to world 22 000. You draw the line ...where? Who gets on your hardcore realm? How many realms will there be?

"It’s not the job of the artist to give the audience what the audience wants. If the audience knew what they needed, then they wouldn’t be the audience. They would be the artists. It is the job of artists to give the audience what they need."

I thought (based off of some of the replies in this very thread, even!) that you were a loser in real life if you COULD clear heroic modes? Or is that not the en vogue bashing anymore?

If you go over to Page 3 of MMO-C, down a tad, you'll find this little gem.

It's also these kind of people that don't achieve as much in life, cause life doesn't get 'nerfed' for them. those people think they should earn as much pay as a guy who works 10 times as hard as them because they wear the same uniform. Lazy people are lazyBy this definition, we can assume that Warren Buffet and Carlos Slim are very skilled hardcore raiders with all content on farm since day 1...

It doesn't make much sense, does it? That's the issue with these kind of arguments, it's just demeaning for the sake of it. One could argue the exact opposite and it'd be just as bad (successful in a game = failure in real life), so, please, please, store this arguments somewhere safe, cast them into the depths of the sea, and never use them again.

Let me let you in on a little secret... The "hardcores" that take to the forums and bitch about everything and say they're quitting, they never do. The people that truly quit really just fizzle out and start logging in less and less often until they're so bored that they log in, stare at the screen for 15 minutes, linger around Org or SW and then log out. The people that scream their heads off about things just end up sucking it up and keep playing because they're still addicted.

One problem with hardcore and casual is that they are atleast partially self-decided intentities. You can be a casual and want to play with hardcore rules or vice versa; even if you do "know what you're getting yourself into" there would be so much crying over everything and the countercrying of "u shud have not rolled on this server u filthy casual nab/elitist."
Also life changes, and the person who was hardcore might not be able to invest as much time as he or she did before, and now he's on a server that doesn't offer anything.

And why do you care what other people do in-game anyway, let us run LFR while you do your hc raiding on the same server.

Heroics then required CC, strategy, interrupt assignments, even dps thresholds. These things failed miserably in pugs where people just wanted to bounce around in mindless happy fun time and pretend standing in fire was a dps gain and dispels and interrupts were not even worth hotkeying. As a result the forums flooded with complaints about how difficult and time consuming heroic dungeons were and blizzard responded by going back to the Wrath model. Dungeons arent really meant to be meaningful content, they are a vehicle to get valors and gear up to go raid. Personally I'm fine with this, I'd rather things be easy for the weakest link in the group then wipe over and over cause the tank, healer and a DPS didn't get standing in "Harvest" on Foe Reaper, with its brutal looking animation, will kill you...

yeah i heard about that, though i didn't experience it personally. This is just somewhat the point of the whole thing. It's a heroic dungeon, it's not supposed to be easy to just simply run in and farm your points, gear ect. For me personally this change feels like if they would nerf down heroic raids to an LFR level of difficulty. No one in their right mind would ask for serious nerfs to heroic content (that's what the friggin heroic stands for, it's harder and it's not supposed to be done by everyone) Everyone can see the content in normal mode or now LFR, and thats ok, it's ok that they have the same gear (just lower item lvls) and they can experience everything, but if they want to experience the most difficult setting and get the highest itemlvl rewards for it then they just have to invest the time in it. I won't do it cause i don't have the time for it, but i would certainly never cry so they nerf heroic to a level where i can get in there and roflstomp everything and thats basically what they did with heroic dungeons. Those used to be really hard and yes time consuming back in TBC but they were worth it and when you did it you actually felt like you have accomplished something, the heros now are just an annoying 15 minute grind which gives you the free valor and blues if you still need them, the difference is that they were actually FUN, you didn't do them to grind points, you did them eventually for loot and because they were a challenge and fun themselves.

World 700, world 2000 down to world 22 000. You draw the line ...where? Who gets on your hardcore realm? How many realms will there be?

i play in lord helmet guild (5th in the list). and we consider ourselves pretty casual since we only raid 9 hours a week. on our sever i whould only consider paragon to be hardcores.. in my book a hardcore guild is at least top 200ish. and casual guilds are guilds that have downed most or all normal modes.
the guilds that cant even down normal modes or only have downed a fiew normalbosses are terribads imo

I wouldn't mind seeing more dungeons where CC'ing from time to time would be useful but I dont want to CC every pack of trash that we run into, not because I am lazy or don't want a challenge but because it would take too long to finish the dungeon if we had to kill 5 out of 7 and then the last 2 out of 7 on every single bit of trash, especially cata content since that content was jam packed full of trash.

What I am thinking is more along the lines of End Times when you got to Murozong there were 2 sets of 4 draconians and you had to CC one caster or you would most likely wipe. Deal with two sets and then move on to the boss. Before that you would deal with lots of trash by AOEing it down (Tyrande), avoid it entirely if possible (Baine), Avoid as much as possible and clear boss fight area (Jaina) and clear a path through to the boss (Sylvannus). I've never been in a party against Murozonds's trash that didn't CC at least one of the 4 draconians, and I wouldnt mind seeing that happen again in dungeons but I don't want to have to CC 1/3rd of every group of trash as that prolongs completing the dungeon and at 80 valor a run it has to be time efficient as opposed to Cata's much higher valor rewards.

My typical weekday is one hour for doing farming, as many dailies as possible while waiting for DPS qeue to pop on heroic dungeon, do Heroic dungeon, then quickly knock out a scenario for a typical total of 160 valor a day. On Fridays I spend 6-7 hours in LFR and Raid for Valor cap. Too much time in a dungeon would make it so I can't hit my cap by Saturday when I start to valor cap my 1 alt that I am playing in mop.

hmm about cata dungeons, they werent as hard as ppl make them out to be.. i started heroic farm the second i dinged 85 during teh first day. and we had little to no problem with the dungeons except for the very first 2-3 dungeons while our average ilvl were still to low to even que throu the lfd feature. (admiral ripsnarl and last boss in grim batol had us wiping a little).
but after a day once we had mostly 346blues we zerged our way throu the dungeons without any problems at all.

thou overall i enjoyed the cata dugneons, i whould ahve liked them a little bit harder (mop challenge modes are wonderfull but they dont have any rewards so cant find any1 to play them with.. i have litterarly not even done 10 challegegmode runs total in mop yet.. wich imo is a big fail from blizz side to negelct any rewards from what should have been the best feature ever added to wow)

hmm about cata dungeons, they werent as hard as ppl make them out to be.. i started heroic farm the second i dinged 85 during teh first day. and we had little to no problem with the dungeons except for the very first 2-3 dungeons while our average ilvl were still to low to even que throu the lfd feature. (admiral ripsnarl and last boss in grim batol had us wiping a little).

And all joking aside ... yeah ... why can't people just learn to love people who are different from them?

Because it's the net and trolls gotta troll. I bet half these people posting as "hardcores" are anything but that and just want to feel important by Bitching about how much better they believe they are. I don't understand why they don't just find a new game. If it's as bad as they make it seem then my god find a new hobby and call a counselor asap about your sad life and complex issue. I have nothing against working hard on a difficult task. If you believe others shouldnt fully enjoy something they pay for because you are better and they are running it then you must have a crappy life. It's a video game people. A hobby, outlet, entertainment etc. It isn't a job.

Heroic mode should be gated. They should only be accessible by raid groups that have spent at least 15 hours inside the raid instance in either normal or heroic mode during the previous week, every single member of the group has to fulfill that 15+ hour requirement.
Any raid group who is inactive for at least 15 minutes should be teleported out of the instance and unable to reenter for 1 hour, to prevent afk camping the 15 hour requirement.
The required hours have to be regained every week, not just in the first week of a patch.

To me, Hardcore are the server/world first raiders. They only care about getting the bosses down, and doing it before everyone else. They don't care that someone else killed the boss months/years after they did. Or got the same gear/title/mounts that they did months/years after they got it. They only log into raid, and maybe a little PVP.

To me Casual are the people who log in when that they can and do what the can in the time the have avaiale to do it. Casuals can be just as dedicated progression wise as the Hardcore, they just dont have the time for it. They gem, they enchant, they research their spec/class.

The issue isn't the hardcores or the casuals. Its the wannabe elitist jerks who make up a large chunk of the middle ground. They ones that think that because due to what ever reasons in real life that stop me from logging is as much as I would like to, that I am somehow less of a player, despite doing the work. That even though I get the best gems, the best enchants, the best whatever, do my best in my role (dps heals or tank), that I am somehow not deserving of the reward.

Why do we need seperate realms, blizz is trying to merge them all without actually merging them anyways.

Last edited by Cernunnos; 2013-02-05 at 06:53 PM.

My name is Cernunnos, I will love you like no other, I have died a thousand deaths, each time I died I thought of you.