Two years ago, in March 2009, people were talking about the end of Capitalism and the rise of Obama. Democrats had total power with their 60 votes in the Senate. Now, two years later, its all about how much to cut and states are passing right-to-work laws after the biggest landslide election in the states since the 1920s. In addition, conservatives can bring out 15,000 grass-roots activists in one day to protest. This ability did not exist two years ago - Conservatives never had any such organization before the Tea Party.

Who is responsible for this change. I say there are two major things:

1) The deep recession exposed the failure of the liberal welfare state.

2) Obama's reaction to the recession created a conservative grass roots movement - the Tea Party.

I agree with you. The solution is that the govt agency should hire some QUALIFIED PROFESSIONALS [i.e non-govt employees] to handle and evaluate and negotiate the sale of govt assets. I doubt that you would agree with my solution.

I have sympathy for both sides in this issue, but how can anyone use the Walker / Hitler equivalence and sleep at night?

I blame the public school system for the painfully obvious low IQ's of the protesters.

Seriously - how stupid do you have to be to think the protests represent democracy when the vast majority of the protesters didn't bother to participate in democracy by voting during the last election?

THAT was my favorite sign - some union guy at the protest with a sign at the bottom that says "and I vote".

Nonsense. Even the modest cuts they say they now agree too were off the table before this bill was about to pass. A budget solution that only lasts as long as someone is dangling a sword over them is no solution at all.

State Repubs say they won't ram an alternate bill through on Tuesday ending collective bargaining, and will wait for Dems. Which means they know they are getting KILLED in the state on this issue. More than that, the apparatchiks don't want Walker killing their chances around the country. Hee.

Garage: State Repubs say they won't ram an alternate bill through on Tuesday ending collective bargaining, and will wait for Dems. Which means they know they are getting KILLED in the state on this issue. More than that, the apparatchiks don't want Walker killing their chances around the country. Hee.

Unsurprisingly you don't understand. Repubs could ram it through without Dems by attaching it to non budgetary bill. But they aren't going to. Does this suggest they have the upper hand here? Or, there are one or two Repubs that aren't signing onto this sociopath's agenda.

Plus, American conservatives have been generally cheering when that's been done in Egypt and Bahrain and Libya, so why would they not support the same in Wisconsin?

*WOW* Just *WOW*…because yes Scott Walker is EXACTLY like Mubarak, this is the extent of Progressive Thought/Discourse…Limbaugh is right, the Left has stories it tells itself to make itself feel brave and important…it’s not what HAPPENED but what the Left Imagines/Hopes happened…”They turn on us with guns and fire hoses and tear-gas”…sure it never happened but it’s a nice little narrative to buck yourselves up, with…”we’re so brave…the opponent is so evil.”

Mostly you’re being idiotic….and I don’t like insults, but that is one of the most foolish things someone has written hereabouts. Yes, I’m sure Walker has called up the WING and the M-1’s are rolling…just getting ready to pull a Tiananmen Square on you Progressives, that’s EXACTLY what the WI GOP is planning…bllod in the streets, they’ll grease their tracks with your intestines…yes yes it’s true

Julius you should be off the streets by 9.02 PM (Central Time)…Just a Hint *wink*wink*

I see since trying to defend the indefensible (teachers having to contribute zero to their own retirement) has run its course, you are now trying to change the topic.

@Jay

Do you think that teachers are over compensated on the whole, or would you just prefer that teachers receive a greater percentage of their total compensation as salary? It is simple accounting. Either the contributions come from the employer and are included in fringe benefits or they come from the employee out of salary.

Furthermore, no one is contesting the permanent cuts to compensation via mandatory retirement contributions and increased contributions to health insurance premiums. Not Althouse, not Madison Man, not the teachers, not anyone who is affected by the cuts. That is why the subject may be fading from the discussion.

Not true, garage. Any bill that spends money, no matter the form, must have Senate quorum to be brought up for a vote.

Do you honestly think Walker wouldn't have pushed this through already if he had the means? Of course he would. Its the key piece of his entire budget proposal. Collective bargaining is the way Walker can meet his budget goals the way he wants.

Also, there are recall efforts now in play against some of the 14. They can get the sigs alot faster than one would think. So letting the 14 languish in Chicago lends the recall effort energy, time and space.

The end game is massive cuts in entitlement spending. If the Dem's are whittled down to 13, it will be much easier.

"The Wisconsin budget bill would allow for the privatization of power plants--WITHOUT A BIDDING PROCESS."

Garage's new complaint: I wonder why he opposes a competitive process for teacher hiring, while supporting one whenever the private sector is involved? Since I haven't seen the Democratic talking points he probably hasn't realized it's a contradiction. But no matter, Democratic activists will be along soon to tell garage what he thinks.

Garage: "State Repubs say they won't ram an alternate bill through on Tuesday ending collective bargaining, and will wait for Dems. Which means they know they are getting KILLED in the state on this issue. More than that, the apparatchiks don't want Walker killing their chances around the country. Hee."

Perhaps. But have you considered an alternative theory?

Perhaps the teachers not teaching and legislators not legislating is a powerful image, one the GOP does not want to get rid of.

When I look at these signs, I remember the outcome of a public union "slowdown" by sanitation workers in New York this Christmas. At least two infants dead because ambulances couldn't get through streets not plowed. And I think: Yeah, it's time to do something about these unions.

A similar proposal was inserted into the 2005-'07 budget by Republican Rep. Scott Jensen. The plan, vetoed by then-Gov. Jim Doyle, a Democrat, would have led to the outsourcing of 271 state government jobs.

Several state power plants are under scrutiny because of their air pollution, raising a question about how marketable they may be.

Last year, the Environmental Protection Agency began an investigation to determine whether plants at UW campuses and prisons were in violation of the Clean Air Act. In addition, air pollution standards being implemented by the EPA are expected to result in older coal-fired power plants' needing to add pollution controls or switch to cleaner-burning natural gas.

"The state knows darn well that it has got compliance issues with these aging coal plants, and so the violations are going to have to be corrected," said Jennifer Feyerherm of the Sierra Club in Madison. "How the governor thinks he can put lipstick on that pig and sell huge financial and environmental liabilities to someone else, good luck. Bottom line, those plants need to be cleaned up."

The Doyle administration was moving to replace coal as a fuel source at several sites, including the Charter St. heating plant that serves UW-Madison. That plant would have burned natural gas and biomass instead, but the Walker administration last month pulled the plug on the biomass portion of the project.

Don't forget that most of these teachers protesting are likely to be graduates of (non)schools of (non)education.

It is not really their fault that they seem dumb as rocks about the optics of all this. They just don't know any better. It would have been nice if they had known that going to a school of education would not give them anything more than a credential for a teaching license. One problem is that they mostly went to public schools and had no way to know any better.

The thing to do would be to fire them all and replace them with folks who actually have educations. Or, give them 3-4 years to get a degree, from a real school, in the subject they teach.

Here's an idea:

Science teachers who actually studied and know some science. Math teachers who actually studied and know some math. History teachers who actually studied and know some history. And so on.

Naahh...

That is just too weird an idea. Besides, they could never get licensed.

"Do you think that teachers are over compensated on the whole, or would you just prefer that teachers receive a greater percentage of their total compensation as salary?"

I think all compensation both public and private should be current cash, with all retirement defined contribution and immediately employee owned. The ability to defer some payments until later creates misaligned incentives which regularly lead to catastrophic failure. This problem is worse in the public arena because the ability to buy votes leads to greater abuse. But even blue chip companies fail with the government assuming their pension liabilities to prove the problem exists in the private world as well.

And yes, they are over-compensated as well. They are paid a premium because Democratic politicians effectively get a kickback in the form of union contributions and political support. Wisconsin Unions are protesting because they fear losing this premium, without which the union serves no purpose.

Garage--as I understand from the threads the gov needs the dems to show up to constitute a quorum--he clearly can once they make an appearance--now you have opined often about the dems not wanting to take it in the ass--and if that is a real concern I will be more than happy to send you case of KY Jelly to make it a bit more comfortable to those scum scuking assholes--and you know I deliver on my promises.

Althouse is taking home $10,000 less this year than last year. The same will be true every year until she retires unless there is some additional legislation to change the situation. Sounds like a cut to me, and it's not temporary (i.e. going away at the next budget like furloughs). Why don't you try explaining yourself instead of making baseless allegations?

You want to make comparisons with private employers? How many private employers have a mandatory employee retirement plan contribution? State and local government employees typically receive more of their compensation as benefits, including health benefits, than private employees. On average health insurance costs make up 11.6% of the costs of a public employee and 7.5% of a private employee. BLS Report

I agree that as a public/university employee I should contribute more for health and retirement, but why should we pit middle class against middle class, or lower class, in this debate? As Robert Reich points out: "By splitting working America along these lines, Republicans want Americans to believe that we can no longer afford to do what we need to do as a nation. They hope to deflect attention from the increasing share of total income and wealth going to the richest 1 percent while the jobs and wages of everyone else languish."

Does anyone know if Garage has a job? How does he have the time to sit here all day, every day, and comment. And why would he sit here all day, every day and comment. To a lesser extent, the same questions regarding FLS.

Health benefit employer costs in September 2010 were $4.65 per hour worked for state and localgovernment and $2.10 in private industry. Defined benefit retirement plan costs for state and localgovernment employers were $2.94 per hour worked, significantly higher than 44 cents for privateindustry employers.

You bolded a section indicating that public sector employees have more expensive health insurance benefits than private employees. Yes, a greater percentage of public employees' compensation comes from benefits, including health benefits. But I repeat myself.

"I love how being forced to join a union and pay union dues is characterized as a "collective bargaining right."

Guy tapping a baseball bat into his palm says, "Yeah, it's your right to join up with us, see? I'm just here to make sure you exercise your rights!"

Yeah, my wife paid $875 last year in (teacher) union dues (protection money). The school system in which she works is a complete failure structurally. Graduation rates/test scores are sub par, and bad teachers are difficult to move.

Really, the union is a protection scheme. Its existence is a component of the utter failure of modern education.

Really, the union is a protection scheme. Its existence is a component of the utter failure of modern education.

You ever how or when your interests and the interests of billionaires aligned so magically? Just wonder how many laughs at the golf course they get from imbeciles like you who will soldier endlessly for their causes. "Can you believe we still have these middle class suckers doing our bidding for us???"

They want to bust unions to pad their bottom line. You want to bust unions...to pad their bottom line. They want control of the states power plants. You want them to have power over ther state's power plants.

They want tax cuts for the fabulously wealthy. You want tax cuts for the fabulously wealthy. It goes and on on. What a bunch of fucking idiots. They will never have your back on anything. Textbook peasant mentality.

"This is a bad unraveling of a political campaign. The showdown in Madison pits pampered public employees against hard-pressed taxpayers. It portrays union workers as an angry mob against those seeking orderly legislative deliberation. It paints Democratic lawmakers as outlaws on the run, undermining the democratic process. It launched a national debate about the generous salaries and benefits for government workers during a time of economic shortages. And it showcased school teachers who abandoned their children in favor of narrow, partisan political gain."

Julius: No, I don't think it would be a good idea to shoot the demonstrators. Although I am sure you would find that more satisfying than the Tucson shooting outcome when your first longings proved incorrect. You lefties have some violent dreams, man, for pacifists.

As Robert Reich points out: "By splitting working America along these lines, Republicans want Americans to believe that we can no longer afford to do what we need to do as a nation. They hope to deflect attention from the increasing share of total income and wealth going to the richest 1 percent while the jobs and wages of everyone else languish."

The effect of some people becoming extremely wealthy is a byproduct of an economic system which allows people to prosper to a much greater degree than any other economic system. Democrats focus on this byproduct to deflect attention from their attempts to seize economic assets from the public and hand them over to their voters.

Garage: Billionaires could give less of a shit about the schoolteacher's in Wisconsin. If anything they would like to see them keep more of their own money to spend in the businesses controlled by billionaires than to give it to the unions who give it to the democrats who hire more workers to join the union. The billionaires are not the problem. The billionaires like beer too, do you side with them on that?

Poor garage. Somehow he didn't get the message that envy is not a sound basis for public policy. But read him if you want to see where our education system is taking us. His thoughts never rise above 'someone else has more than I and I'm going to take it', yet he's managed to convince himself this constitutes high philosophy.

The Wisconsin Education Association Council is 98,000 state teachers and Education Support Professionals united to maintain strong schools and communities in Wisconsin. We're committed to Moving Education Forward.

If the too-big-to-fail banks had simply been left alone they would have all collapsed. No TARP bailouts and no multi-million dollar paydays for people who took stupid risks. Where are the prosecutions from Holder's DOJ? Nada. That was what started the Tea Party protests. Peasant mentality, my ass.

RT @jimwitkins: Go in shifts #WIunion protesters: take care of yourselves. It's a marathon, not a sprint. We'll be at this for awhile...about 5 hours ago via HootSuiteRT @andrewkroll: Need a ride? #wiunion organizers look to have you covered... http://twitpic.com/42267labout 5 hours ago via HootSuiteRT @mikeelk: I feel like a combat correspondent landing in a hot LZ - finally arrived at ground zero of the class war - Madison #wiunion

Re Robert Reich saying "Republicans believe we can no longer afford to do what we need to do as a nation".

I like to do the old "back of the envelope" calculation. Today, public schools cost an average of about $6,000 per household. Think about that and ask how much more can we afford to spend? I don't think Rober Reich ever calculates the back of the envelope spending.

why should we pit middle class against middle class, or lower class, in this debate?

Because the "half" of the middle class that actually produces things is sick to death of supporting your "half" of the middle class with our tax money. Do rich people sometimes screw us over too? Sure. Just not nearly as much as people like you.

I'm thrilled to hear that you think you should contribute "something" to your retirement benefits. Here in the private sector we typically have to cover between 95 and 100% of our retirement benefits -- plus, of course, most of yours.

Thanks for the links Don't Tread. I like the contributions by party chart that shows only 1% support of Republicans. Walker's got nothing to lose in opposing public unionists who donate millions in taxpayer money exclusively to Sugar Daddy Democratic legislators.

Get a job in the public sector dude if it's so easy and lucrative. Or, maybe you need a/more education and/or skills to do so.

Let me ask you a question, Garage. Imagine the police in your town go on strike. You see a crowd of people looting the electronics store. You know full well they will never be caught or suffer any punishment for their actions.

Bell may get a salary from more than one labor group. I think oldtimers like Jimmy Hoffa started that a long time ago so [for instance] big shots would get a salary from the local union, the area council, state council and the national umbrella group.

After hearing about the hard times coming on unions, my first thought is that we need a Union of Union Employees. The salaries for Intimidation Specialists are much too low. Without the thugs, there could be no unions, so they need raises today!

Maybe the Badger14 LIKE just sitting back and reaping the benefits of their faux martyrdom? (via Journal Sentinel):

More than 11,000 donors from around the country have given $280,000 to the State Senate Democratic Committee via ActBlue.com, a national website that funnels money from various sources for Democratic causes.

But wait! During the Johnson campaign, Democrats said out of state money was a BAD thing (even though Feingold collected more than Walker). Sheeesh. I can't keep up with the cowardice of your convictions, Dems.

"Wisconsin is our number one state," says Margie Healy, director of public relations for the California-based Korbel. "We export 385,000 cases a year, and 139,000 go directly to Wisconsin. That's one-third of our total production."

"These charges are very serious and in response the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health and the University of Wisconsin Medical Foundation, two of the entities that comprise UW Health, will immediately launch an investigation of the reported behavior."

"The investigation will identify which UW Health physicians were involved and whether their behavior constituted violations of medical ethics or University of Wisconsin and UW Health policies and work rules. The investigation and any potential future action will follow the established procedures of the University of Wisconsin. Any future disciplinary action taken will be considered a personnel matter, and in accord with University of Wisconsin policies, will not be open to public discussion."

The Wisconsin Medical Society says they do not condone the physician's actions under any circumstances."

Garage: Get a job in the public sector dude if it's so easy and lucrative. Or, maybe you need a/more education and/or skills to do so.

You have cleverly placed your finger on the heart of the problem, Garage! Now please explain, once everybody has followed your advice and transferred themselves to the public sector because the jobs are so much better there -- who's going to pay their salaries?

"UW's doctors have demeaned not only the doctor-patient relationship, but in so doing, risked the stature doctors hold in our discourse on public policy.

"I couldn't imagine just walking up to people with a stack of work excuses, 'What's your name? Here you go.' ... It reflects poorly on the practice of medicine, and it reflects poorly on physicians who actually do take the time and effort try to determine whether someone is ill and is legitimately away from work," he adds.

These doctors sacrificed a slice of the medical profession's credibility for a political cause. Was it worth it? The fallout is mounting."