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Man-at-arms/Teela/Sorceress dynamic in MOTUC

Hope this is worthy of a new thread. kk2 pointed out that the Teela's father thing was hijacking another thread (in a round about way). Though there was more to it than just who was her father, but her relationship to the Sorceress what it means for her character being a clone in MOTUC. So here is a new thread to carry on that discussion here. I hope the posters don't mind I've quoted what I believe are the highlights of that thread of conversation.

Originally Posted by Masamune

Yeah, I was annoyed too. Though I'm more upset she loses the mother daughter relationship with the Sorceress. Sure you can argue that the Sorceress would care for her, but not truly as if she were the child she felt forced to abandon. But like Toy Guru said there is no official canon, the fans decide that for themselves (paraphrased, of course). Personally I edit that part out.

Originally Posted by Darkspecter

Well...I still don't believe Fisto was Teela's dad in MYP. In the episode "Out of the Past" the Sorceress' husband had the skin tone of MAA and dark brown eyebrows. Fisto is pasty white, with red eyebrows and an ENORMOUS fist (which the Soldier did not have). Also, the Sorceress is very cryptic in the episode and says the following:

The whole soldier losing his memory and returning to battle (and forgetting all about the Sorceress for some reason...) screams MAA to me. The Sorceress, still knowing who her husband is, gives Teela to MAA to protect because she knows he's a great man and can take care of Teela...and Teela is with her real father. The Sorceress doesn't reveal this info to protect everyone involved, just like why Adam can't tell Teela and his parents he's He-Man. I have a thread about it in the 200X forum somewhere, but here are the pictures I combined to show the similarities between MAA and the soldier and the EXTREME differences between Fisto and the soldier. I think the Fisto story was to throw us of the MAA trail.

What Sandman said. He was never explicitly stated to be Gar, but if you're looking for your relatives and you go to where all the Gars live...you're Gar, right? Especially when you're blue. That's how I took it.

Originally Posted by gbagok

In my opinion, by going with the Tale of Teela origin, they've basically made Skeletor her father as he created her by stealing her "mother's" energy. It also makes her the child of a symbolic rape in a kind of Marvel Comics meets Greek myth way. It's pretty heavy stuff, and could be great in the right writer's hands, but I think in the bios it reads like just another piece of trivia like Jungulia and that Demo-Man guy. This is why we need minicomics again, Mattel. Beef up the stories, not just the toys.

Originally Posted by Sandman

I hate it, not because I ever felt a burning need to know who her father was, but for these reasons. And also the other thing that people keep mentioning, it dehumanizes the Sorceress greatly by taking away the only mortal relation (that we know of) that she ever had. Her "moment of weakness" if you will (or conversely her moment of strength).

Blah.

Originally Posted by MegaGearMax

MOTUC doesn't worry about popularity. It's major customers are MOTU fans who would by any character, no matter how obscure. September alone is proof of this.

Maybe the reason is to assure the fans that Fisto isn't the father. And no trouble of worrrying about who the father is. The fans will want someone really awesome to be the father and maybe Mattel realizes that they could never live up to such high expectations.

I do like the idea that MAA could be the father and that Fisto could be a red herring. Nice catch with the skin color and the hint from "The Ties that Bind".
The only trouble with that is MAA never lost his memory...unless the Sorceress made him forget with magic.

This is additional info to be added to my pictoral post above about the MYP series:

Just because they (the writers), thought Fisto would work great as her father, doesn't mean he would have been.

In JLU, The Cheetah was supposed to die in the first episode she appeared in, but the animation studio screwed up and showed her being put into the back of the paddywagon with the other villains, so the fans pointed it out and she was brought back and was one of only a handful of villains that survived the whole series!

The same type of change would have had to be done in this case, as Fisto does not look anything like the soldier who married the Sorceress. He's a different skin colour, has a different hair colour and the soldier didn't have a giant fist.

Based on the animation he can only be any of the following:

- Some random guy
- Man-At-Arms
- Mek-a-Neck (who knows what he looked like before)
- Ram-Man (who knows what he looked like when he was young)
- Prahvus as a human (that would be VERY interesting...I have a theory on that one. )

...that's all I can think of.

Take part in Illumina Day! Let people know who she is and help get her in MOTUC.

- Some random guy
- Man-At-Arms
- Mek-a-Neck (who knows what he looked like before)
- Ram-Man (who knows what he looked like when he was young)
- Prahvus as a human (that would be VERY interesting...I have a theory on that one. )

So it's not set in stone, huh? Well if it had continued and a scenario played out where it turned out to be MAA I would have liked to have seen a deeper, if sometimes strained, ex-wife/ex-husband relationship. That would have been an interesting dynamic.

And if it was MAA, when would have found out? It was never stated if he had any memory loss himself, he could well have been the amnesiac soldier. Though with MAA being such a tactician and being adept at keeping secrets the scene where he is given Teela as a baby and states "my adopted daughter" could have played out longer with him learning the truth and keeping yet another secret from everyone for her safety.

Originally Posted by Darkspecter

Based on the animation he can only be any of the following:

- Some random guy
- Man-At-Arms
- Mek-a-Neck (who knows what he looked like before)
- Ram-Man (who knows what he looked like when he was young)
- Prahvus as a human (that would be VERY interesting...I have a theory on that one. )

I'm very confused about Prahvus as it is. Swordtech? (I think that's his name), told the story of how he became a human/machine and in that story, Prahvus and his men DIE during the Great Unrest. Yet, the Sorceress fights him. This could have been before the Swordtech story though...

However, I read the plans were to have Hordak unleashed and Prahvus was going to join up with him...but Swordtech's story shows him dead...

So...I don't know.

I think he could possibly be Teela's daddy because he fought the Sorceress and lost (badly). She kept and either destroyed his special glove or stored in magically somewhere.

Prahvus would obviously be upset about this. I think he disguised himself by magically transforming into a human man and had some plan to get it back. However, this WAS the Great Unrest and he got caught up in a battle. He was wounded badly and could only remember the name of the town he fought the Sorceress in and got himself back there. He forgot who he was and his plans. Fell in love, got married, etc.

Then, he regains his memories, takes off and becomes Prahvus as we all know him again.

We all know Prahvus was in the area during that time and he had a beef with the Sorceress which needed settling. Also, who knows, maybe the demon get up is only a costume? I prefer the magical transformation angle though.

I would like Prahvus or MAA to be Teela's real daddy. I think the Prahvus angle is awesome because nobody would see it coming!

Also, everyone involved would be devestated, which makes for some dynamic stories.

Take part in Illumina Day! Let people know who she is and help get her in MOTUC.

It would be an interesing dynamic to have Teela the daughter of a villain. It would open up tons of story options. Such as trust issues with her adoptive father MAA or her mother the Sorceress on learning this secret or her villain father playing on the knowledge to test her loyalties to her friends and family etc.

Though for me it's important just to have Teela as the biological daugther of the Sorceress because she's an emotional anchor for the Sorceress. Otherwise the Sorceres runs the risk of being a one dimensional Obi-wan in a skirt. And I mean the ghost Obi-wan to boot. She doesn't get out of the castle very much and is more often communicating by telepathy than being present with the heroes she's calling on. I realise she's essentially anchored to castle Grayskull, but she should have a more varied role and not be such a shut in.

It would be an interesing dynamic to have Teela the daughter of a villain. It would open up tons of story options. Such as trust issues with her adoptive father MAA or her mother the Sorceress on learning this secret or her villain father playing on the knowledge to test her loyalties to her friends and family etc.

Though for me it's important just to have Teela as the biological daugther of the Sorceress because she's an emotional anchor for the Sorceress. Otherwise the Sorceres runs the risk of being a one dimensional Obi-wan in a skirt. And I mean the ghost Obi-wan to boot. She doesn't get out of the castle very much and is more often communicating by telepathy than being present with the heroes she's calling on. I realise she's essentially anchored to castle Grayskull, but she should have a more varied role and not be such a shut in.

Agreed. The Sorceress runs the risk of becoming "Dr. Manhattan" from the Watchmen.

Thanks for liking the idea kk2.

P.S., MGM, I was positive the Sorceress' husband and the MAA/Sorceress convo was from the episode "Out of the Past" (because I watched it yesterday) and it is!

I think the "Ties That Bind" is the episode where Teela has to get blood from the Sorceress...right?

Take part in Illumina Day! Let people know who she is and help get her in MOTUC.

I gotta say, I still follow what I've always understood about this. The only thing I can accept and have since I was a small kindergartener was that Duncan was Teela's actual father, and he had some "special time" with the Sorceres. She couldn't raise the baby herself, because of her important duty, and couldnt have time with teela as she'd like. So duncan raised teela to believe her mother died in childbirth, to allow Sorceres to do her duty and keep teela happy, not know that she had a mother she could never get to know and have a kinda depressing destiny herself, when you look at it, not to mention hide his own pain in not being able to be a family, his love for the Sorceress the first tragedy, their "one night" (or series of months where the sorceress considered leaving her duty, but realizing she couldnt do it even for love, so she had to send him away for the good of the world) leading to a baby that was the second tragedy, never having been able to be a mother to her child.

This is an amazing story in my head that I never knew I just "made up". It seemed to spring into my head as a child fully formed, and I always thought I had read that somewhere or something. Evidentally I just made it up as it was evident to me that was the only explination.

I still think it's the most compelling story, most dramatic, and most character enriching.

- Clone of Sorceress (Skeletor's her father...he cloned the Sorceress)
- Sorceress' husband is a soldier who died in the war so Eternia could be free (can't remember which book that's from...or it could be Filmation)
- "One of Eternia's Greatest Men" (according to MAA in "Teela's Quest" Golden book)
- Man-At-Arms or Fisto in MYP
- Adoptive father in all media, Man-At-Arms

Take part in Illumina Day! Let people know who she is and help get her in MOTUC.

I've taken some time to gather my thoughts on this into a semi-legible form, so here goes.

Without any anchors to humanity, the Sorceress is a really problematic character to empathize with. Back in the Filmation days, the times when you would really see her as a character, rather than just a deliverer of exposition or a plot device, were her character episodes.

And except for her origin episode, all these character moments really came from her and Teela.

Fast forward to the MYP series. This iteration of the Sorceress is even more detached, non-emotional. You may even say cold. Except, once again, for the episodes concerning her relation with her daughter.

The question then becomes, is the Sorceress now much more of an unfeeling, unempathic watcher? She cannot have allowed herself to fall in love with a mortal, not had a dalliance. Whether Teela was created by her, intentionally, or by one of her enemies, the Sorceress becomes a much different character. The fact that she allowed herself to fall in love, had a daughter, and then realized she couldn't keep the child despite that it broke her heart gave her a very engaging story arc. Having that child be a magically created clone removes an important part of that equation.

It also means things for Teela as a character.

Now, I will admit that even if she is a clone, Teela is still a living being. She's still kind of the Sorceress' daughter, although she is more properly her sister. Unless there was some kind of genetic alteration happening we haven't heard about, in which case she's not really a clone. At any rate, Teela still has the same kind of emotions and thoughts as a normal person. So there is of course some kind of affection happening here as well. And of course, being identical to the Sorceress she is perfectly primed to take over her "mother's" role.

Still, I'm unhappy with this for a few reasons. First, I liked the mystery of who Teela's father was. I didn't give a damn if it was Duncan, Fisto or some guy who sacrificed his life for Eternia. The mystery of it was a story I was thinking about as a kid, and continued to as an adult. It's a good mystery, and a good story for the character. And that's entirely out with this clone idea. The idea that Skeletor may be considered her father just makes me laugh, because it forces the Star Wars angle ("everyone is related and knows everyone else!") way beyond the point I'm comfortable with it.

Second, it kind of messes up Teela's destiny, which at least I always considered an important part of her character. The fact that she would one day have the potential to take over her mother's position as guardian of Grayskull and fulfill a supremely important role in the great struggle. Seeing how she could go from a captain of the guard, a very practical person to a sorceress and mystical heavyweight always intrigued me. And of course, it raised the question on what her nameless father's influence had on this potential.

But with Teela being a clone, the whole question becomes much more trivial. Of course she can be the Sorceress of Grayskull. She IS the Sorceress.

You're not the only one. Duncan should be Teela's father. Even if she's cloned from the Sorceress, he's the one that raised her, and I'm sure that if she ever found out the truth she'd consider him her father, no matter what biological relationship they have.

Thanks Sandman. That was a very good and well thought out post. Perhaps anyone who writes any sort of adaption for any media should take a loot at that and learn something about character relationships and emotional depth.

I do believe MAA is Teela's biological father...and Fisto CANNOT be the father in MYP because it would have screwed up continuity (visually).

Fisto DOES have memory loss from that time period, but MAA labels him a deserter. Fisto says he was wounded and MAA said he never returned to fight.

So...where did Fisto go? I think the Sorceress said her husband left to return to battle but he never came back. I forget her exact speech.

Anyways, I like MAA or Prahvus:

1) MAA: Nobody would see it coming (character-wise...we all would ). This would open up trust issues between the Sorceress and MAA as well as anger and resentment from keeping the truth from him. Eventually MAA might want to try and rekindle their marriage.

2) Prahvus: I posted my "turned himself into a human" theory above. This would be shocking and troubling to everyone! Not even the Sorceress would have known. Teela would feel betrayed and ashamed and the Sorceress would be devestated. Prahvus could try to lure Teela into his world and she might even have a stint as being a villainess. In the end she would realize, no matter who her biological father is, MAA raised her, trained her, loved her and he's her true father. This would also give Teela and Adora similar, yet opposing stories. Hordak was her adoptive father (by kidnapping) and she grew up under evil's influence, but chooses her biological father and the side of good.

So...I actually think I like Prahvus being her biological father best, because it leads for some VERY compelling stories, while it still leaves MAA being the "true father."

Take part in Illumina Day! Let people know who she is and help get her in MOTUC.

I'm firmly ensconced in the "Duncan is Teela's dad" camp. Even when I was nipper I thought that relationship was closer than it should have been if she were adopted.

I don't usually read the bios because, well, they're usually crap. I've just read the Sorceress's one so I could reply to this thread and my previous reasoning for ignoring them stands! What a load of old cobblers.