I'm not saying that women only dress well to impress men, just in case anyone got that from my post. Of course there are other reasons: boosting confidence, feeling good about yourself, even competition with other women and a whole host of other things.

I'm not saying men don't (I think I said this initially, but I want to restate it.) Many men work out, try to appear attractive, etc. It's just that in general, I see a lot more going into female attractiveness in society. For example, cosmetics are generally for females, plastic surgery (strictly for attractiveness, although for many it's a turn-off) is generally on females (although what can you really "enhance" on a male, come to think of it?), and fashion and style is primarily female-oriented (although men do have their fair share of fashion.)

Since this is the science forum, I'm more concerned about why this is the case, and when, not only in our species, do females become the sex that "flaunts" more? Now once again, I'm just noting something I see in society; I don't know if anyone can legitimately claim that more effort goes into looking attractive in human males than females, at least in the general modern society. Is this a matter of human society, with increased communications, pictures, etc. giving a new window for this to occur? Could this be an effect during human evolution?

Thank you for the examples in which the female is the more vibrant species; I was unaware of any specific instances of this. However, in the vast majority of the animal kingdom (of which I have seen, or remember), males are the ones that try to appear as attractive as possible to females, which then get to choose between potential mates.

Thank you to all, for giving me some insight on this topic.

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.

I'm not saying that women only dress well to impress men, just in case anyone got that from my post. Of course there are other reasons: boosting confidence, feeling good about yourself, even competition with other women and a whole host of other things.

I'm not saying men don't (I think I said this initially, but I want to restate it.) Many men work out, try to appear attractive, etc. It's just that in general, I see a lot more going into female attractiveness in society. For example, cosmetics are generally for females, plastic surgery (strictly for attractiveness, although for many it's a turn-off) is generally on females (although what can you really "enhance" on a male, come to think of it?), and fashion and style is primarily female-oriented (although men do have their fair share of fashion.)

In the past, a lot of people thought a woman's only value was her appearance, which was possibly related to her child-bearing potential. Thank Gawd those days are past us. Things like makeup seem to communicate a lot of things socially (possibly the reason I am repeatedly mistaken for a butch lesbian).

I was trying to avoid talking about patriarchy, but I think a lot of people still do think women HAVE to be pretty. Women politicians are often criticized on their looks, tabloids post images of "stars without their makeup" as if that should shock us. Less attractive girls are often made fun of and bullied in school. I don't think women are "the ones that flaunt more," but rather, they are taught they need to look pretty to succeed and gender roles are pushed on children from birth.

Consider sitcoms and cartoons: the women are usually thin and attractive, the men are often fat slobs (Family Guy comes to mind).

And lots more men are getting plastic surgery these days. Just look at Kenny rogers, or Mickey Rorke. Or Michael Jackson. As for "enhancement," there are people who surgically "enhance" their junk. And hair transplants have been around a long time now, how is that any different?

And you are completely ignoring all the men who wear makeup, heels, wigs, and get plastic surgery to look pretty:
You are also ignoring the statistics saying that more attractive people tend to do better on job interviews, are treated better generally, etc. There are all sorts of advantages to looking good.

But yeah, I agree with muffsy. Wearing clothes that look good doesn't have to have anything to do with attraction. Some people just like nice clothes, or enjoy washing/brushing their hair daily, etc.

(28-01-2013 11:52 PM)bbeljefe Wrote: Very good points. Particularly the fact that gender roles are forced on children. This is destructive to a child's individuation and no doubt it has a lot to do with the OP's question.

This was a decent book on the topic:Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference by Cordelia Fine
I'm sure I read more in college but I can't recall right now. But this also ties in to why I fucking hate the tv show "The Doctors:" they say this shit like it's fact, they act like men and women are different species biologically. The female doctor also said some questionable stuff that all women should shave their pubic hair, which annoyed me (even Dan Savage got that one right: pubic hair is not filth. Having pubic hair is not a "hygiene problem." but that's off topic.).
People confuse this with sexual dimorphism sometimes, I think. Yes, men and women are biologically different, and they usually look different, but that's not the same as little boys being told to play with trucks in the dirt, and girls being told to play house and play with makeup.

There was actually a good quote from David Lee Roth in book on heavy metal I read, not that he belongs in a book about metal, but he was addressing the reason there seems to be a lack of women in heavier music. He said the parents and society pushes the little girl away from playing electric guitar and becoming a rock star, they tell her to play flute or piano instead. This was addressed by Keith Kahn Harris in the book Extreme Metal, also, but he included blacks, women, gays, and other minorities as those "exscripted" from metal music. It's dominated by white men, so more white men get into itl they think that means they belong there. Women in music are often objectified, they may be treated differently/worse than men for this reason (every time I ever read a review of that band Arch Enemy, it seems to talk about the vocalist's looks. Nobody really talks about male vocalist's looks in metal), causing them to feel unwelcome, so they look elsewhere for a creative outlet. This digression was an attempt to explain why men and women do different things sometimes, and people usually attribute it to biology when it would seem to be more of a societal, gender-role type of thing.

[My views might be skewed because I haven't worn a dress since 1991 and haven't shaved since 1999, and I hang out with too many genderqueer people.]

I haven't read the book but I listened to an in depth interview with her about the book and she makes a lot of sense.

With regard to shaving... that's a matter of preference. Anyone who argues that it's dirty to have pubic hair probably also believes that cutting the end of a child's dick off has something to do with hygiene. I prefer to be shaved and to have the women I'm with shaved but again, just preference.

Also... does it make me a bad person that I can objectify Lita Ford and appreciate her music at the same time???

(29-01-2013 10:10 AM)bbeljefe Wrote: I haven't read the book but I listened to an in depth interview with her about the book and she makes a lot of sense.

With regard to shaving... that's a matter of preference. Anyone who argues that it's dirty to have pubic hair probably also believes that cutting the end of a child's dick off has something to do with hygiene. I prefer to be shaved and to have the women I'm with shaved but again, just preference.

Also... does it make me a bad person that I can objectify Lita Ford and appreciate her music at the same time???

If God wanted you to be shaved, He wouldn't have given you pubic hair.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

I think it's great what those parents are doing as long as they teach the child that he/she is in fact, a he or a she. It's one thing not to force gender stereotypes on a child but it's quite a swing to the other extreme to deny the child individuation based on his or her gender.

I also really like that they are unschooling. One of the biggest problems we have in society today are the prison like statist indoctrination camps called schools.