I can see how I could forgive whoever did this to me, like maybe if it was my mom. She was raped by her older brother when she was 12, as she told me a few years ago after years of therapy. It has by no means been smooth sailing for her since then, but she has been able to keep here ship off the rocks. Lord knows she did not asked to get raped when she was 12. Anyway, I could forgive her, if it were her.

It is hard for me to believe in God, although I really want to. The alternative is just too depressing to consider.

I do not see a way to forgive God. God killed Job's whole family. But, Job still praised God. I wonder if Job would have still praised God if he had been fucked up the ass at 9 years old?

I'm sorry. I know that is incredibly vulgar of me, but it is how I feel about it. I know I need to get past it, but it ain't happening today.

This is a hard topic since we're all in different places about God and its a sensitve subject.

Being Catholic and going to Catholic school for 8 years I'm familar with Job and have a similar perspective to ftgf on the parable that is meant to be a test of one's faith. I also understand it's meant as a symbolic story.

The God that I know let/allowed this to happen to me. I've prayed a long time to get rid of this pain. Damn it if I'm not pissed off at times at God for having to live this way ...

Yet I still believe in God, most of all I have to believe in heaven. I have to believe that God at least protected my soul from also becoming evil from the evil acts that were done to me. That I have a chance to get rid of this pain. This pain that is a living hell. That what I have to do is strive for recovery

For me, I have to believe, cause its the only way I can keep what's left of my sanity. I have to cause its the only way I can keep up any sort of fight.

If anything I can't let evil win ... I can't let it own me.

The true enemy is evil ... and the enemy of my enemy is my ally ... while I sure don't understand or agree with God's strategy against evil ... I see him as an ally, one I often argue with, against my true enemy.

One answer must be that just as God didn't commit the Holocaust or the genocide in Rwanda, he's not responsible for the abuse of children - the blame for that goes 100% to the perps who hurt us, just as the blame for other crimes falls on those who commit them.

Another thing that helps me is to look at the positive things in my life. I have lost a lot, but as Born to Resist right stresses, it is already something to be able to say that you have not succumbed to this terible evil yourself.

But there is more. I have my health (mostly) and a loving family, and I have been able to support my family doing work that I love. I have done a lot of interesting and fulfilling things in my life, and my wife and I have raised two great kids to become healthy, happy and well-adjusted adults. I have cultivated abilities in music and writing, and my troubles do not prevent me from appreciating what is beautiful and good in the world. I could do without the abuse, sure, and often I still dwell on that and have powerful feelings about it. But I still have so much to be thankful for.

I am also coming to see that although I would never wish this on my worst enemy, dealing with my past is making me a more compassionate person, someone who is more acutely atune to the suffering and pain of others. I also think I am developing a more rounded and integrated view of myself as a human being and as a man. Most of the macho and testosterone-fueled ideas that many men fall for strike me as just so much nonsense, and I feel I am the better for that. I have also made many friends among my fellow survivors here; I have a deeply personal and abiding affection for them, and our friendship is extremely important to me. And with no exception, these are guys I have never met.

ftgt, you express some angry feelings and that's okay. This is how you feel and that needs to come out; feeling we have the option of talking about it gives us some measure of control again, and we need that. Or at least I find it important. Feeling that I am still in command SOMEWHERE makes it easier to trust others and let them help me.

Forgiveness: That's the tough one, and I guess we will all differ on this. Some will say forgiveness is an integral part of the healing process, but I don't see it that way. Forgiving my perp (who's long deceased anyway) is nowhere on my list of priorities. On that one I am prepared to be selfish. I may work on that if I come to see it as somehow contributing to my healing. Otherwise, to steal your phrase: "it ain't happening". Perhaps I would feel differently had my abuser been a family member.

Take care,Larry

_________________________Nobody living can ever stop meAs I go walking my freedom highway.Nobody living can make me turn back:This land was made for you and me.(Woody Guthrie)

On foregiveness, I can only think of one reason to foregive your abuser. Perhaps, and only perhaps, until you foregive your abuser you are giving them power over you.

I relate it this way to my wife, who still HATES her ex-husband. I think as long as she harbors hate for him, he still has power over her. I long for the day for her when she has no feelings for him at all. then she will be free of him.

Of course, this is very easy for me to say,isn't it? My inner child can't even tell me yet who my abuser was. Probably because he knows I'm not ready, and might do something very stupid with that knowledge right now. He is smarter than me in some ways, I have come to understand. LOL

Very interesting take on forgiveness - I had not thought of that, but I can see the point.

You are right to respect where "Little Jeff" is allowing and not allowing you to go so far. Take his hand, let him feel safe and supported in your care, and see what he tells you further on down the road.

Take care,Larry

_________________________Nobody living can ever stop meAs I go walking my freedom highway.Nobody living can make me turn back:This land was made for you and me.(Woody Guthrie)

Hi,FTGF, very good thoughts on forgiveness. Our bitterness only eats ourselves up. Giving the perp power is what they wanted in the first place. Good insight! Born to resist...thanks! Andrew I agree wholeheartedly. This is a good thread. Good insights all around. For me, it's important that we know God loves us. He allows things to happen by the free will we exercise or, unfortunately, others exercised on us. In the end, it boils down to God doesn't cause bad things to happen, he permits us collectively to act as we will (and pay the consequences...and the perps will find recompense someday in some way). God wants free agents not robots. If he forced people to act we'd all be robots. That doesn't mean innocents won't get hurt, unfortunately. God also can help ease the pain and sustain us and heal us too. I'm trying every day to let God heal me. Part of the problem is that when we've been hurt by authority figures (older brothers or parents, or just an adult), it becomes hard, very hard to trust anyone who is more powerful, or an authority. Nobody fits that de>

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"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

Just a couple of thoughts on forgiveness... If you have grown up in church you may tend to "just forgive" without working through your feelings in it. I have found in my own life from all the hurt and abandonment I have tried to "just forgive" and move on, but in reality all I was doing was stuffing it inside and not really working through my feelings because the Bible says... we must forgive. I now feel that God would have us work through our feelings, own them (our feelings) and then release them.

Of course I am still working though mine with the purpose of resolution.

Regards,Rivers

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The sum of a man's life is... His ability and capasity to love and value others.

1. I had a thread going in the Male Survivor section titled "Addressing Loneliness..." and that thread drifted over to themes about God bc well my therapist mentioned that I was Lonely for a connection w/ God/Source/Universe (or whatever other terms a person chooses for 'higher power'.)

2. And my therapist suggested that when I find myself driving around alone and having "conversations" out loud in the car w/ ex-girlfriends or other people that I need to try to shift those conversations to wanting to pour my heart out towards God.

3. And that scared me and really agitated me bc I had to admit that even though I pray when I am overwhelmed, that I have major, major reservations about allowing myself to be vulnerable to 'God/Source/Universe' ... Well I have major reservations about allowing myself to be vulnerable and get close to anyone at all these days.

4. My therapist is right of course [@#$!] that I am going to continue to have trouble finding reliable connections w/ other people until I establish a sort of relationship w/ God/Source/Universe as SAFE. Rivers made a good point about working through feelings and I have just begun to untangle the mess of knots in my soul including Anger at God. "Ok God, I'm Here" I said in the car a couple of times today ... Just in a sense announcing my desire for some divine dialog.

5. So today after work I stopped off at the Library and picked up a book called "Conversations w/ God: Book 1". And I am going to go upstairs and draw a hot bath and start reading and hopefully God and I will begin to get acquainted.

DIB -I am not sure which god you killed but the one I know is still here and doing fine.

I really appreciate your words philip. When you have been fed a "God" that is angry and ready to kill you and damn you to hell if you step out of line and that he is the one who did this to you... it's hard to want to find him or trust him. But when you find the one who is loving and healing and is wanting to help you through all of your abandonment and pain He can make a diffence if we give Him the opportunity.

Rivers

_________________________
The sum of a man's life is... His ability and capasity to love and value others.

Thank you Rivers. I haven't been on the board much lately...I'm in Rural Pennsylvania myself, at a Seminary and am way too busy for my own good. It's beautiful here this time of year. Thanks for the kind words. Kind words sometimes are the best we can hope for at times.

I was working at a Renaissance fair, playing music as a performer. There was a little child in a stroller with his parents. He was just howling and crying for some reason. I came over to play him some music..and then I noticed that he was older than his size made him look..and then I noticed that he was "different" a little twisted in frame, not all there mentally perhaps, but in pain and agitated by the heat and the bumpy ride. I started playing music for him...just a few little chords on a guitar. His parents said, "Look he's playing just for you!" "for me?" he smiled through his tears. He then burst out laughing and had such a look of joy on his face. I saw the relief on his mother's face and his father's face as they whispered "thank you." Then they were gone. Later that night, I began to pray for that child and his family and an overwhelming grief for them came over me and an overwhelming joy and sense of gratitude for the gifts I'd been given. I cannot explain the feeling except to say I was so overwhelmed I wasn't sure I could continue living and contain that sorrow and joy, literally, for a few seconds. I came out of that with a profound sense of wonder and thanksgiving. I understood that in those few seconds of playing music, I had given the Lord a cool drink of water. In the kindness I had done for another, I had done a kindness to God...and on the other hand the recipient had been given a glimpse of God's love. I am sure it might have been the one time I had committed a completely spontaneous, completely unselfish act of love... In that one moment, so mundane, so brief, eternity had been touched. I might never have another moment like that one. By God's mercy I will have many, I hope. Why am I saying all this? Heck I don't really know...it's the thought that came to me as I was reading this thread. Maybe it's that we all have a chance to be the healing hands of God and by that we can be healed by God by those we help. To paraphrase St. Paul, you may have all the answers, you may be able to perform miracles, if you don't have love, though, you don't have anything. It is through love of others and forgiving that we are healed and heal. Sometimes we have to forget ourself to remember who we are: children of God made in his image. Maybe someday, if we love enough, we will become in his likeness as well and when others look at us, they see the perfect mirror of God. Amen...may it be so.

Now back to the homework.

Philip

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

I have a different "take" if you will on religion. My molestor was the son of a prominant Baptist minister. I was Presbyterian at that time, if that matters anyway. To make a long story short I was never from that time comfortable with christianity. I never set foot in a church for 40+ years. Several years ago I converted to Judaism and have been happy ever since. I think I was headed to be a Jew from the first time I heard the Kol Nidre well before I was molested at age 10. I'm a "Fiesty Yid" & proud of it. And I'm back quiet.

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"Sound an alarm your silver trumpets sound and call the brave and only the brave around...who listeth, follow, to the fields again. Justice, with courage, is a thousand men" Handel "Judah Maccabaeus"

If you molester would have been a jew, would you not be uncomfortable with Judaism?

My first violater was blond, Lutheran - good church boy - but I couldn't stand blond guys for a long time and still stay clear of the Lutheran Church (the building in my home town).

I am happy that you are happy in your faith - But Christianity in it's purest form is also very fulfilling. When I say purest form I mean -You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. A large percentage of "Christianity" is just a religion and not a true relationship with God through His Son. I find there to be a huge difference between the two. I have done both - so it's from personal experience that I share.

I appreciate your post and believe me I am not picking any arguement. I just know that from my own abuse I have strong dislikes... for instance, hunters in there hunting gear (I was violated by a hunter) - Athletic, football, baseball type (I was violated in gangs by them). So I was just wanting you to see that your distaste or uncomfortableness for Christianity could be from your abuse and not because of the Faith itself.

If I were violtated by a Christian Church leader (priest, pastor or such) I am sure I would have significant issues with "Christianity" so I am not judging you or your faith in any way... I am just giving a perspective.

Sincerely,Rivers

_________________________
The sum of a man's life is... His ability and capasity to love and value others.

The River Of Dreams - Billy Joel In the middle of the nightI go walking in my sleepFrom the mountains of faithTo a river so deepI must be looking for somethingSomething sacred I lostBut the river is wideAnd it's too hard to cross

And even though I know the river is wideI walk down every evening and I stand on the shoreAnd try to cross to the opposite sideSo I can finally find out what I've been looking for

In the middle of the nightI go walking in my sleepThrough the valley of fearTo a river so deepAnd I've been searching for somethingTaken out of my soulSomething I would never loseSomething somebody stole

I don't know why I go walking at nightBut now I'm tired and I don't want to walk anymoreI hope it doesn't take the rest of my lifeUntil I find what it is that I've been looking for

In the middle of the nightI go walking in my sleepThrough the jungle of doubtTo a river so deepI know I'm searching for somethingSomething so undefinedThat it can only be seenBy the eyes of the blindIn the middle of the night

I'm not sure about a life after thisGod knows I've never been a spiritual manBaptized by the fire, I wade into the riverThat runs to the promised landIn the middle of the nightI go walking in my sleepThrough the desert of truthTo the river so deepWe all end in the oceanWe all start in the streamsWe're all carried alongBy the river of dreamsIn the middle of the night

The one thing that helped me get over my prejudices for God was the knowledge that forgiveness come easier when we realise that whatever we are going thru in life or will is all our Karma coming back to us.

The best thing we can do is to allow the experiences to pass thru and probably learn from them so that we dont go thru them again.

To rise after each fall that is what we are all here to learn. We are all here, on our way home.

I used to curse god a lot. It reached the point that I blamed him for everything wrong with my life. My prostitution, drug addiction, screwing up a career, damn near destroying my marriage and even my appearance (because I hid the body that I thought got me into trouble).

I do believe in a supreme entity. But I really believe that we suffer from benign neglect. What he/she/it has given us is the ability to make choices and then the ability to act on those choices.

So we have the ability to make the choice of being a victim/survivor add infinitem and we can make that choice reality. We can also choose to become a survivor/live life as we were meant to.

The first is relatively easy. But what do we gain from that? Abosolutely the status quo. The pain the rage the guilt the disfunctiion relationships that we have.

The second is really hard work. Is it worth it? Ask anybody who has or is travelling that road. That would include all of us here and others who are trying to do it on their own. But it is our choice.

Speaking personally I thank he/she/it for giving me these great gifts now. I also am thankful for my friends here and in my personal life and for my Wife and my daughter and my wife's family. I have a lot to be thankful for.

The SA prostitution drug addiction and career destruction happened and was cause and effect. I have changed my values and beliefs around those happenings and am doing my best to keeping them from influencing today and the future. I am happy to say, for the most part, I am successful but then I am not perfect. I do know that my life is a hell of a lot better because of the gifts I have been given.

It is not position of me to question God. We are not equals. I am not a God, I am just me, and my brain sure can not handle such weight of such questions. To me, it is much easier to ask 'Why not' instead 'Why'. There is free will of humans. Humans are not all good. Some damage between people, persons to person, will happen. It will be to me, or to person next to me, or to other person down the road. At least to me, I can handle it and recover of it, and will not kill myself in weakness or become bad and harm another from the abuse. That is part of God also, that he make me strong enough to deal with what happen, to stop it, and to not become someone who would do such to others. I rather attempt time to try understand me, which is hard enough some times, and I just keep faith I will understand God, and my life and the world when I am meant to. I can not hurry it.

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