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it's fine with kicking and punching, but what about screaming? nobody mentioned anything about screaming. just wanted to note that i was the first one who mentioned here about SCREAMING. i mean...and i mean. i sit here on the bench reading aikiweb and nothing on screaming. aikido could use good screaming. we should just scream "KILL! KILL! " along with jumping up and down. i think it would do us some good.

Yah, of course. You gotta test it in reality, the question is just with what? Learning to hit stuff with your fists can teach you a lot if you use it as an opportunity to learn how to get your whole body into your fist, or it can just teach you how to hit with a fist disconnected from your body.

Not if you're hitting a makiwara, a heavy bag, or another person, it won't. But, again, those are karate methods.

And as far as kicking goes, I always say that the BEST time to kick someone is when they are already DOWN. So in some sense, Aikido is all about getting someone optimally placed for a KICK.

Robin

great! a fellow believer in the method of kicking people while they are down. god forbid if we kick folks while they are upright and still have the ability to beat the living daylight out of us. aikido is all about love right? and i love it when i kick folks when they are down; it's safest way.

if Aikido is about "love" then it's about saving "innocent" lives and preventing their deaths or suffering and, perhaps, granting mercy, to those that manifest violence, when they sincerely repent & surrender.

I feel the wisdom of Leonides I more clearly then that of either of Shakyamni or Yahushua (JC).

I wish people stop using the terms "spirtual" and "love" as they are so loaded with prejudices and nebulous notions: show it, not tell it.

back to kicking: kick thier legs, help them drop to the ground (with a throw, if needed), then keep control and if requited, side heel kick their jaw against the ground for a KO while holing on to their hand or wrist, so that you can deal with the others approaching, in a timely manner... that is the practical guideline to the practice of using kicks to save lives. I do the spin heel hook kick to head in a dojo for the fun exercise and to express the 'art", but not likely will use that for real.

Last edited by Chris Evans : 10-27-2011 at 09:30 AM.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."

great! a fellow believer in the method of kicking people while they are down. god forbid if we kick folks while they are upright and still have the ability to beat the living daylight out of us. aikido is all about love right? and i love it when i kick folks when they are down; it's safest way.

Dear Phi,
I take it you are being flippant here [from the funny face ]?Cheers, Joe.

Not if you're hitting a makiwara, a heavy bag, or another person, it won't. But, again, those are karate methods.

It definately makes a big difference. A lot of people see people hitting each other in movies and think it's as easy as throwing your fist at them. I had a friend see my heavy bag and say "oh cool!" He gave it one hit and started hopping up and down holding his wrist. I warned him, but not well enough. At my dojo we have padded posts just outside the mat area for hitting, and while it's not something everyone uses, Sensei and the senior deshi use them, which suggests the need for them.

Dear Phi,
I take it you are being flippant here [from the funny face ]?Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe,

Phi is the eponymous forum jester. He is a valuable resource, ready to use humour to compliment on the one hand and on the other, to prick the bubbles of pomposity, that inevitably rise up in discussions here. I always enjoy his post, as there is often alot of wisdom behind his tongue in cheek delivery.

Yes. Back in my taekwondo days, we had a saying: "The bag always wins." They hit back, they don't get tired and they don't quit because they're hurt.

I should qualify what I said before, though: heavy bags and makiwara are something that I have never seen in an aikido dojo. But is it okay to have them there? I'd love to have a makiwara to practice strikes on.

..I should qualify what I said before, though: heavy bags and makiwara are something that I have never seen in an aikido dojo. But is it okay to have them there? I'd love to have a makiwara to practice strikes on.

About a third of the places I've visited had heavy bags or makiwara. My home dojo has a nice bag, used mostly by little kids messing around, but that's another problem.

I should qualify what I said before, though: heavy bags and makiwara are something that I have never seen in an aikido dojo. But is it okay to have them there? I'd love to have a makiwara to practice strikes on.

We have wallmounted "makiwara" (not the original wooden pole-type) and a heavy bag in our dojo. And tanrenuchi of course. I think that the heavy bag is far better than makiwara for developing hard strikes, the makiwara seems to be more of a checking/stability-tool.

Dear Phi,
I take it you are being flippant here [from the funny face ]?Cheers, Joe.

dear Joe, i am a follower of the way of bu who, for crying out loud, would not kick folks while they are down, at least not too much, unless they deserved it by owing me money and eating my last donut. i can forgive the money, but the donut, not so. a man's last donut is sacred.

dear Joe, i am a follower of the way of bu who, for crying out loud, would not kick folks while they are down, at least not too much, unless they deserved it by owing me money and eating my last donut. i can forgive the money, but the donut, not so. a man's last donut is sacred.

I shudder to think if it was jelly-filled or had sprinkles! Perhaps the person wouldn't be round any more?

I should qualify what I said before, though: heavy bags and makiwara are something that I have never seen in an aikido dojo. But is it okay to have them there? I'd love to have a makiwara to practice strikes on.

bags and makiwara are ok for some practice. however, hitting a real body is quite different because the body isn't uniformly solid and surfacing. this is where those systema buggers excel. they practice hitting real body and also practice on receiving hits (lots of psychological learning here). few years back, a dan ranked karate guy came and practiced with us. i asked him to punch me and he kept stopping before contact my body. so i told him to really punch me, he just could not get himself to do it. i asked him why? he said at his dojo they were not allowed to touch with any strike. i was a bit astounded. i waved my son over (he's 5'11'' and 180 lbs and if he punches you, you better move) and asked him to hit me. my son shot out his arm and punched me and blew me back a couple of feet. you can hear the sound of flesh striking on flesh across the room. the karate guy eyes were bugging out of his skull. i laughed and said "when i asked you to punch, i wanted you to punch like you can rip my spine out the other side. and if you can't do that, then i don't have the need to do anything." so if you love your partner, then strike like you mean it. better attacks, better defenses. i encountered folks who practiced in striking arts who liked strikes, but didn't particularly know how to handle being strike and fear of it. very strange.

besides punching and kicking, you got elbow, knee, shoulder, hip, and all the other body part. i got hit with a shoulder strike, at zero inch, by an IS guy, and he blew me off my feet and sent me some distance. i was thinking "damn! i really don't want my body parts anywhere near his body parts". and i am thinking if i have to fight him, i'd be some distance away with a rocket launcher and my chihuahua. luckily i didn't owe him any money or ate his last donut, so i think i am safe at the moment; but just for good measure, i prep my rocket launcher and stop feeding the dog just in case.

I should qualify what I said before, though: heavy bags and makiwara are something that I have never seen in an aikido dojo. But is it okay to have them there? I'd love to have a makiwara to practice strikes on.

We have them, along with focus mitts, as well as helmets and gloves for weapons work.

Is it okay? That would be a question for your organization and/or chief instructor. But if the answer is no, why not?

I don't think Asian Martial Arts are mean to be so boxed in, like, just because the art doesn't practise much punching or kicking doesn't mean you can't do it. I think in Asia it's just kind of expected you do what you can to save your own life when it's threatened.

I also think punching and kicking isn't as sophisticated as the techniques in Aikido so they don't bother practising it when there's much more useful stuff that needs the time and focus.

I've trained for a long time in a few arts, and I've stuck with one and also recently taken up Aikido to cross train and I tell you now, Aikido is genius. It's a pretty much perfect way to teach someone human anatomy subconciously so you can basically know how all the tendons, bones and muscles connect for you to become basically a puppet master of both yourself and your assailants. Given my research too, I's pretty much bet my life on why and how Aikido was developed this way, especially since the masters did a lot of research on cadavers.

Dear All,
As far as Abbe Sensei being a good teacher I can confirm though personal experience that I found no problems as far as what Abbe Sensei was imparting to us.His movement was economical , beautifully executed waza.Very fluid , in a manner of Kisaburo Watanabe Sensei, a later Judoka who visited the U.K.
Regarding kicks and punches, most of my early days incorporated this aspect.I was always trying out ways to become a lean mean fight machine.Weights, running, strand pulling, Charles Atlas , you name it I tried it.Now my training comprises of four doughnuts/munchmallows , gin and tonic, pizza etc and my feet up on couch.This once rippled , toned mass of finely honed muscle is now resembling a bag of spuds.
Due to finger wrestling my right hand is damaged, due to a nasty Makikomi from a angry young man from Edinburgh I received collar bone damage.A low level kokyu nage landed me on top of my head 20 years ago and my poor little noggin [head ] is now showing signs of excessive wear and tear.So whats the moral of this story ?Dead simple your body is the only one you have got, treat it kindly , its got to last you a lifetime. Cheers, Joe,

dear Joe, i am a follower of the way of bu who, for crying out loud, would not kick folks while they are down, at least not too much, unless they deserved it by owing me money and eating my last donut. i can forgive the money, but the donut, not so. a man's last donut is sacred.

Dear Phi,
See my latest comment. I agree that one should be reverential to ones doughnut. Joe.

“You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war… an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word ‘aiki’ because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given (“Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That’s the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called ‘aiki no jutsu’. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki.” “Is that so… I think I understand.” “If you still don’t understand, come to me again.” After that he was afraid of me and bowed to me from far off. When I went to Europe he asked me to take him as well.

In my own opinion, generated from knowledge learned with by myself and taught to me, it would seem to me that the idea for Aikido, at least prewar, was truly about battles.

You can see the vestiges of that in Yoshinkan, which is very similar to pre-war Aikibudo. Atemi at every opportunity to shut down the uke's other arm, take their mind, or push them back. Some techniques like shihonage don't work well without it in a practical setting. It seems that Ueshiba originally thought that you must strike your opponent with the same focused power used in Aiki waza, should you enter a serious battle.

Of course, what we decide to do is also a part of Aikido. To strike someone for damage is very different than striking without damaging but for tactical purposes. One is Aiki, the other is violence.

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a reference by Saito (Trad Aikido) saying something like '..blows from non-tempered hands do not compare with those from tempered hands...' He may have been referencing the Aiki practicioners hands (I certainly took it to be this). So the next question is what methods to temper hands are (were) used in Aiki?

I've read in a lot of places that Kenshiro Abbe's methods were not typical of the aikido of his time. He was, by all accounts, a guy who had his own way of doing things. I'm not sure we should take one man's word on how Abbe Sensei taught as a clear illustration of how aikido "used to be".

It depends on its weight - punching bags go with different weights. You may find very light ones which are good to get used to miss the target (particularly with hooks and uppercuts) and yet not lose your balance, or very heavy ones that bounce very little no matter how and how hard you hit them.

Shadowboxing instead is practiced usually in front of a mirror to have a sense of your own stance.

However, an outstanding performance with a heavy bag does not translate automatically in a good performance on a ring. It is amazing how quickly actual sparring with a highly mobile and somewhat hard hitting partner may cut your breath and exhaust your resources within 6 minutes or even less, while hitting the bag you were going on, also intensively, for half an hour.

Something that most persons not used to actual sparring ingore is that being actually hit on the face taxes your breathing resources too: most persons think there is no relation between being hit and breath (and i am not speaking of your ribs here), but there is.