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The Truth About Knife Crime (video)

Here is a video taken from a BBC program called, “The Truth About Knife Crime”. It’s a graphic video which shows real violence resulting in the death of one person and the serious injury of another.

The reason I wanted to share this is because it shows the reality of a knife attack. It involves an unanticipated attack followed by repeated stabbing of one person (who lives) and a single stab to the chest of the person who dies.

The “martial myths” of telegraphed attacks at a distance are soundly refuted. There is no “skill” exhibited here. What we have is a lethal mix of ambush, simplicity, brutality and a total lack of morality. This is the reality of things.

As you say, there are no signals, no "squaring up". It's quick, direct and completely cold hearted without the slightest hint of human decency. This is the nature of violence.

If ever those people who practice "knife defence" needed a wake up call then films like this are it.

The principles of awareness and avoidance in our training and teaching are essential. Can I just add though that even in a situation where weapons are not present the kind of low life scum we see as the perpetrators on this film would be likely to attack while the decent, law abiding martial artist are still deciding whether a pre-emptive strike is "appropriate". This fact MUST be factored into dojo training.

The young lady on the film (and her family), in allowing this film to be publicly shown so as to educate have shown wonderful dignity and a lot of class. Condolences to them on their loss.

I'm curious what lessons (if any) do people think can be drawn from this video?

Personally for me it drives home the idea that getting over the "freeze", and training for ambush type attacks in scenarios seems pretty important I have no idea what form is best or even how reliable they are though. Whenever I see something like this, I usually just think "man, what would actually work here, I mean it came out of nowhere..usually the shock from something like this is so severe it's hard to react to anything at all. It really shows the stark difference between training to "fight" and something like this, completely different animal.

My best to the victim's familie(s) and I hope all can find some peace.

I'm rather surprised they just ignored those 3 men even as one approached. It's also obvious (at 1:24) that once that guy Linch approached him and pulled the knife that a pre-emtive attack would have been appropiate and fully justified. I can imagine that taking the initiative and atacking at that point would be pretty scary and I can see why you would have to firm decision to defend yourself and go all out.

I wonder though at the exact mechanics of it. Linch is about an arm's length away and appears to be holding a knife about waist height. Daniel has his hands up at shoulder height. Any attack would have to include controlling the knife arm or you'll get stabbed an die. Going to the ground is also a bad idea because the two buddies there would be quickly kicking you in the head and you would also get stabbed and likely die. Whatever you do would have to be very quick since the two buddies would get involved if they saw one of their victims fighting back.

My first thought is that move from pinan yondan where you drop the one arm in front and bring the other across the face. It should keep him from stabbing me and as I bring his arm around I could go for a hard strike to the back of his head.

I have used the cctv footage of this event in training and lectures since it was first released into the public domain almost a decade ago. I recently switched away from using this in lectures to show a similar unprovoked attack without lethal consequences.

It is important not to armchair criticise the event. You have two guys relaxing after a birthday night out i the very early hours of the morning waiting for a lift in a well lit area, they had no reason to expect a sudden attack from three strangers. Whenever I have shown this video to youths my emphasis has been on the dangers of carrying knives and how they can escalate the situation beyond the original intent of any of the participants. As I recall both the older non carriers denied knowledge that the 16 year old had a knife on him. I often put an 'insecure' knife carrier into some of the scenarios in my Simulation Days as a result. I don't use this video to dissect what Daniel and Andrew should or should not have done.

Dealing with knives is not easy, and what can work in a static run through can really go out of the window once contact and intent are involved (see my article in Iain's Jissen and the good follow up the next issue). Here is a video of a concealed draw of a fake blade in a training scenario. The blade was hidden afterwards. Not a single person saw it. (2.01 onwards)

Warning: bad language.

Unfortunately in this next video (again with a knife drawn in excitement) we had a wall malfunction (two big weighlifters ploughed through them, not an issue in our new area). Here you can here a Policeman shout 'Knife' which alerts everyone. We have adopted this. If you drill it, you're more likely to do it. Think of it like shouting for help in First Aid. It could save lives and stop the attack in some cases.

It is important not to armchair criticise the event. You have two guys relaxing after a birthday night out in the very early hours of the morning waiting for a lift in a well lit area, they had no reason to expect a sudden attack from three strangers.

Totally agree. When we watch this video we know what is about to happen. We are therefore viewing it from a very different perspective than the victims will have been. “Monday morning quarterbacking” is therefore something that is unlikely to be productive.

On the video it does not look like the group of attackers is headed toward the victims. It very much looks like they are going to walk past, and then the first punch is thrown. Disorientation (from impact) and shock are also key components here. Without regular realistic preparation for sudden unprovoked attack (as John shows in the videos) – and it’s only a very very small percentage of people who have that – physical and psychologically freezing will be the norm. It’s therefore very easy to pass judgement while watching a YouTube video. It’s not really useful or realistic to do so though.

Zach Zinn wrote:

I'm curious what lessons (if any) do people think can be drawn from this video?

The above said, there are definitely some lessons we can objectively learn:

The criminals don’t operate to the same moral code as you do; or even to any moral code at all.

There are people out there who will kill for a mobile phone and a “thrill”

The criminal element is not looking for a fight or a “square go”

That physical self-protection is not the same as a “fight” and therefore it’s a big mistake to think fight training is adequate preparation.

“Knife defence” as taught in the vast majority of martial arts schools bears no resemblance to reality.

Good people can be in the wrong place and the wrong time through no fault of their own.

Luck is something that always plays a part

Zach Zinn wrote:

Whenever I see something like this, I usually just think "man, what would actually work here, I mean it came out of nowhere..usually the shock from something like this is so severe it's hard to react to anything at all. It really shows the stark difference between training to "fight" and something like this, completely different animal.

Discussing knives in general now, here is video that was posted on my facebook page that was created to show what a real knife attack will look like. I think they do a good job.

The attack is simple and savage, and the vast majority of skilled “knife defences” won’t do anything to stop it.

Here is another video I think illustrates things very well.

Some classic footage from Marc MacYoung to further illustrate the point.

Now websearch “Tanto Dori” and you can see there is no way almost all of what is taught in the martial arts is going to work. As “art” or for cultural or historical interest then fair enough, but it is extremely dishonest to suggest such methods have any place in reality.

The vast majority of modernists are not offering anything much better either. The problem of failing to realise a knife attack is not a “fight” and hence fighting solutions are not appropriate is very common.

So here are some examples from undeniably talented fighters and martial artists. I have great admiration and respect for the arts and the individuals in these clips, but there is no denying what is being taught is extremely problematic.

My own observation is that the failure to grasp the reality of the problem (as shown in the videos above) is obvious. Fighting skills and martial arts are being pushed into an environment where they don’t belong.

As I say, I’m not knocking the arts or individuals. I post the videos because I hope it will encourage all of us to pause for some honest reflection around this issue and the way it is currently address throughout the martial arts.

I also hope people find the "reconstruction" videos useful in illustrating the true nature of the problem to people.

Those that know me know my views on Martial Arts generally. For me, the single most important aspect is honesty. The Martial Map illustrates this very well. I'm a member of several groups and practice Martial Arts from all angle. For me, Karate-Jitsu and the people surrounding it (all accessed via my interest in Kata and Iain's take on it) is my entry and emphasis into true pragmatism.

Yet of all of the Martial Arts that I study, Aikido is my favourite. There really is no feeling like good Aikido. Yet I'm the first to acknowledge that Aikido is (usually) extremely far from pragmatic. Is there anything wrong with this? I would argue no, as long as the Aikidoka is honest with themself about where the art fits into the Martial Map or however else anyone chooses to describe or visualise it.

This leaves the tricky question of formulating physical strategies for the ‘last chance’ option of physically attempting to defend against a blade. The only method you can employ with knife attacks is take a logical systematic approach to the training. DART uses a ten stage process to evaluate knife defences.

Step One:Identify the probable ways you can be attacked (not just the infamous Jim Carrey straight arm spoof) or threatened. Use police, forensic and A&E reports to help you identify the most common places people are stabbed.

Step Two:Slowly try with a partner all the possible ways your body can react against the threat . Once you have a selection of strategies that seem to work - cut out any that initially involve fine motor skills.

Step Three:Kit up both people in decent protective armour[1] and try the strategies you have produced with a rubber blade against a single identified probable attack/threat. Do this in a static (one step) attack with full speed and power. Automatically discard any responses that work less than 90% of the time – no matter how they cool they look. Looking cool is something that belongs in the movies, not in any real defence against knives, unfortunately cool moves tend to result in cool bodies.

Step four:Repeat step three but this time add pre-assault verbal threats and distractions to increase the pressure level. Again - discard movements that are affected by the greater pressure.

Step five:Try step four after either an aerobic workout or running round a stick to simulate an intensive stress reaction in your body.

Step six:Repeat step four but this time your attacker is allowed to keep going at you until they have been hit in such a way that they accept the fight would have been over (move from static to dynamic training). People do not generally stab just once: once the psychological gap involved has been crossed they will keep thrusting and they will panic if you get hold of the knife (their own self protection instinct). The majority of stabbings involve multiple penetrations.

Step seven:Repeat step six with the pre attack aerobic work.

Step eight:Move from dynamic to ‘alive’ training by giving the attacker choice of empty hand or any of the possible knife attacks you have identified, using pre-fight verbal and distractions.

Step nine:Add the pre-fight aerobic to step eight.

Step ten:Replace your rubber blade with a felt pen to get a clearer idea of possible scraping and slicing points and assess your survivability.

(Step eleven: introduce a surprise knife attack into a scenario and watch what happens)

At any point in this ten stage drill you can return to an earlier stage to take account of information learned. Videoing these drills provides excellent feedback. The more your mind and body has to remember the more likely you are to fail. Keep it Simple.

I only use rubber knives. I've had a rubber knife snap off at the hilt on impact with the palm of a student's hand when they threw out their arm in a reflexive protective response. A wooden or aluminium blade would have gone through the hand.

A great deal of the knife stuff I use is Aikido based, but it has to be taken out of the context of the 'dojo' and applied with aggression/prejudice, irimi and atemi, into the dynamic environment of a simulated attack.

[1] Armour should protect the majority of the body from injury. This means that while pain may be acceptable the level of padding should be sufficient to prevent broken bones. In situations such as this the padding should also be thin enough to allow natural movement. Please note that padding can only ever reduce the impact force, it does not nullify it and as a result care should be taken when striking to areas such as the head or neck. Both people should be in armour. An armoured attacker attacking an unarmoured defender will consciously or unconsciously go lighter with the attack, and the defender in turn will vary their response. I'm not fond of shock knives as they can't be used like real knives and while they can cause pain, I think they create a less realistic training dynamic than proper force on force training.

The first is that generally we accept for the most part accept that the majority of training we have for edged weapons we find in our syllabus is unlikely to be practical.

The other is the comment “what would work here?”

I think these two are linked. When we see videos like this we look at our training and think "what would I do" and struggle to come up with anything. Rather than searching for the answer do we have to just turn around and say accept there isn’t one?

I mean, even if someone like Geoff Thompson hasn’t got a clue, then that has to tell you something right there. In his excellent book Dead or Alive, he hands his chapter on weapons defence over to someone else as he says he doesn’t have the answer, despite the fact has been glassed and faced knives on numerous occasions. The whole of chapter fifteen of the book is a reprint of an article on edge weapons written by someone else. It is very long, and very informed, and uses al the right words, but at the end of the day comes up with little more in the way of practical suggestions than “run like hell.”

Do we just have to face up to it and say “You know what? If that happens I’m screwed. The only thing that will save me is blind luck or the ineptitude of my attacker.” Is the reason no one has the answer to edged weapons attacks is there is no answer?

thats how I see it. There is no right answer that could save everyones live. When you are facing someone with a knife than you are screwed. You have to engage in the situation if flight is not possible. You should try to talk your way out of it but when it is getting physical it is mere luck to survive. You have to be clear about the fact that you get cut at one point of this altercation. And when you are realize you have been cut and the cut is deep you are going right into shock I guess, wondering what happens to you now with all the blood loss maybe blacking out and thats when you are getting killed because your attention is not at the attacker anymore.

Is the reason no one has the answer to edged weapons attacks is there is no answer?

To say there is “no answer” would mean that every time a knife was used the wielder would kill the person they were attacking; and we know that’s not the case. People have effectively dealt with knife attacks. There are certainly “answers”, but there is no answer which guarantees success.

In this podcast I give me thoughts on my personal approach to this issue:

Sorry Iain, I didn't clarify, I was thinking more about there being no answer to the "this is what a knife attack looks like" video, which is so fratic and crazy I think there is little anyoen coudl do, but yes you are correct there are lots of other scenarios in which knives are dealt with successfully.

I have heard your podcast on weapons before and it was a great eye opener for me. I agree with pretty much everything in it, although very few people I train with seem to. I think it is a by product of our syllabus which once we get to knife defence forgets there is a person attached to the hand holding it and fixates totally on applying wrists locks.

The main issue why "standard" defence against a knofe attack in the video posted probably wouldn't work is because we practice knife defence one on one, we stand there and a guy "attacks" either realistically or not with a training knife. In general, my answer to a one one one knife attack (and I've been there and done it in the really real world - day job) is (if I have to engage) to remain on the outside of the attacking arm, grab the attacking arm at the earliest opportunity and place in a joint lock, I don't worry about stripping the knife as I know from there that the young people generally using the knife are not skilled knife fighters, more scared young people so I just batter them in the head until they give up.

The issue is, it's one on one. In the video there are multiple attackers, yes only one with a knife but the other 2 herberts would soon jump in if I were to be smacking their mate in the head. THAT is the real question, in the video shown how do you deal with the knife atacker in a safe fashion while also dealing with his mates?

I first saw the original video on one of JWT's knife training days and what shocked me the most wasn't the mindless attack or the behaviour of the attackers. I think even the most naive of people know that there are people like that in the world.

What really hit me was which victim died. It looked like the guy in green had got away relatively unscathed while his mate took the initial punch and the worst of the following assault. When John explained that actually it was the guy in green that had been killed with a stab to the heart it really hit home how horrendous knife attacks can be. How one guy can take multiple stabs and walk away and another takes one hit and dies.

I'm sure some of you may already have watched this, but as it is pertinent to the thread I thought I'd add it here. I filmed this 10 days after my last post on this thread.

Warning - contains swearing!

No-one saw the knife in the first scenario, and I retrieved it without being observed. I think the use of the voice is exceptionally important in the secnd scenario. In some cases it may well make the knife wielder reconsider their actions, and possibly (if they are unaware) wake up the wielder's friends to the escaltion of the situation. At the very least it may prevent someone from getting stabbed.

With regard to 'how to deal with the knife attacker while his mates are present' I think you have to strip this down to basics rather than think on techniques. What is the threat, what is legal. The threat (from a knife) is lethal and if imminent (ie action is necessary, you are certain it is abut to be used or it is already in use) - the legal response, the reasonable response, is a proportionate one - a lethal response. Furthermore detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife. If escape is not an immediate option and you are engaged with the knife wielder. then the priority must be the elimination of that threat. If immobilising that person makes you a vulnerable static target then the way and where you strike while controlling the knife arm must be appropriate to the fact that the threat they pose is a lethal one, and that the probable further threat from friends (especially if one of them has a weapon or picks up the weapon) is a lethal one. That sounds simplistic and brutal, but it is an honest appraisal of such a situation.

On the positive side it is actually quite difficult for multiple people to engage one person who is moving and keeping the initiative at close quarters.

Sadly I've just been reading a bit more background on this crime and the attacker, Timmy Sullivan, that initiated the attack with the first punch was recently released from prison and is already a wanted man again. 5 and 15 years seems a paltry sentence for such an attack IMHO.

Unfortunately in my (first hand) experience of these things, it's all too familiar a story. Sentences are too short so are A) not a deterent for killing someone and B) not able to do anything to re-programme the person to leave a law abiding life, as that is what is needed to stop these people and their mindless violence.