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Specifically, though, what different aspect of outside playing do the others address as it relates to my blog list?

My view is that we should play what we hear. If we can hear outside notes or phrases or chords in our minds then we should play them.

But you have to train your mind to allow yourself to hear it and play it. By transcribing and hearing it before, then it makes it possible to practice it too so your hands can automatically find it.

I think you yourself said this before. If you haven't played it before, your hands will grope.

BTW, like you, I tend not to like reading transcriptions (done by others) as a matter of course other than to just verify a point. The self-transcribing process is more revealing. But maybe this is also influenced by the fact that I don't like sight-reading.

Transcribing - it doesn't seem like you even have to do much. Just enough to learn something and then to set off to practice it.

Far too much to ingest in a lifetime (75 Jarrett transcriptions alone). Personally I don't bother as I feel the value of transcription is in doing the transcriptions, not in just treating jazz as written material, but I am unusual in that I think. Anyway check it out if you are short of stuff to look at.

Thanks David. I have SO much materiel it would take another lifetime to go through.

Transcriptions exist for only one function in my world. I go through them and pick out random 1 or 2 bar phrases that look interesting and transpose the line to all 12 keys. I don't necessarily try to play "what" I've been transposing but "the process" almost always enables me to see new shapes, not only in single line playing, but often new textures in voicings too ; often something that I haven't played before. And invariably this "process" will lead to me coming up with more of my own concoctions--both lines and voicings. All of which I write out in a notebook (again this writing out also helps your sightreading) ...and then use that materiel as well for transposing to all 12.

This "process" makes up for the meat of my "jazz practice". Of course I set up time for straight improvising...both on tunes and just some random free playing or one chord vamp type of thing.

Lately I've been working more on the 4 Chopin Nocturnes I've learned over the years more then anything else...

Transcriptions exist for only one function in my world. I go through them and pick out random 1 or 2 bar phrases that look interesting and transpose the line to all 12 keys. I don't necessarily try to play "what" I've been transposing but "the process" almost always enables me to see new shapes, not only in single line playing, but often new textures in voicings too ;

This is really good to hear how others see transcriptions. It's helpful how each one approaches it differently.

BTW - I'm so bad at notating rhythm. It's like a puzzle trying to fit the right number of beats in a bar to match what I'm transcribing. Grrrrrrrr....

And the software I'm using (Ipad App) doesn't just realign the notes to cross a bar.

jazzwee, that's a LARGE. question about your (excellent) blog posts and those specific transcriptions i mentioned. some observations: AP in the ATTYA recording has very clear roots in Chick Corea Matrix style (which itself flows from MCCoy Tyner) and Keith Jarrett. There's more going on than that in AP's playing, of course, but those are some reference points. That's why I mentioned Matrix by CC and Passion dance by MT. i know you have familiarity w/both. Having said that, both of those solos are masterpieces and were seriously influential in the AP jazz generation. So. RETURN TO THOSE SOLOS! No matter how well you know them, dig deeper and find more!

HH and Eye of the Hurricane. It's another great solo in the style we're discussing. And one of your posts was HH playing Autumn Leaves. Eye of the Hurricane is much more basic than that particular version of AL. BUT. It (EOTH) has essential stuff that's vintage HH moving in and out of changes.

So if you study the daylights out of those three solos, you pretty much have a base to compare their respective styles. That comparison is an important part of the learning curve. You'll find stuff in one that's not in the other. Those discoveries build upon each other over time.

Just to mention, there are at least 2 aspects - which are the rhythms and the shapes in those 3 solos that aren't really in the JB solo we've been discussing. In particular, the MT, CC, and HH solos are by younger players who demonstrate post-Coltrane language.

So, it's comparitive study that's the key. At the same time, don't loose sight of a fundamental goal in all of this which is you really want to EMBED the sound, feel, and technique of those solos in your brain (ear) and hands. If you really embed the sound - imprint it upon your brain! - then you'll get what you need from those solos. In this regard, transcribing is a great way of learning and imprinting - it gets you close to the music in a special and detailed way. At the same time, Fred Hersch is on record as saying he never got all that much from transcription. Whatever, transcription or not, goal is imprint this stuff into your short and long term memory and hearing.

Your blog shows you have the organization and analysis skills to take this stuff apart. And the recording you've posted shows your playing is moving forward (you're absorbing stuff you're working on) .

... So .....those solos (or their relatives or descendents if you prefer) await your attention!

But you have to train your mind to allow yourself to hear it and play it.

That is true, but it is difficult to improve. Doing transcriptions will surely improve the ear whatever standard we are at, but the other crucial thing to develop is getting a sound from our brains onto the keyboard. This is a pretty hard to measure skill, but essential. Basically we have to try to know how every note (and combination of notes) will sound in every context, which is a tall order. Singing along with lines and doing lots of learning the sounds of shapes and voicings, learning sequences and standard melodies, all that helps.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

BTW - I'm so bad at notating rhythm. It's like a puzzle trying to fit the right number of beats in a bar to match what I'm transcribing. Grrrrrrrr....

Transcription is a really great way to force ourselves to concentrate on notation skills. Hard work, even painful sometimes, but VERY beneficial I think.

I don't really ever do transcriptions any more. I used to do quite a lot but after a while I didn't think it was benefitting very much so I stopped. Now I am more likely to just analyse how other players play tunes - how they manipulate the sequence and voicing to turn a sequence into amazing music, how they shape the melody so it really means something, how they play with the rhythmic feel to drive the rhythm. These are listening skills as well and I take the view that ultimately the more you can hear the more you can play.

Sometimes though the odd sound catches me that I feel I want to work out, a special voicing or something, but I feel I get enough ear training just playing music nowadays.

Lately I've been working more on the 4 Chopin Nocturnes I've learned over the years more then anything else...

I work on classical way more than jazz even if I do mainly play jazz. Playing Bach has really helped my technical shortcomings. I think it all works together, even if classical and jazz do have some slightly isolated skills.

That is true, but it is difficult to improve. Doing transcriptions will surely improve the ear whatever standard we are at, but the other crucial thing to develop is getting a sound from our brains onto the keyboard. This is a pretty hard to measure skill, but essential. Basically we have to try to know how every note (and combination of notes) will sound in every context, which is a tall order. Singing along with lines and doing lots of learning the sounds of shapes and voicings, learning sequences and standard melodies, all that helps.

That truly is a tall order. The reason, I think, we work on formulas that others before us used is because it's a shortcut. Someone already worked out progressions that work and creating lines that properly balance tension and release in a pleasurable way.

I'm certainly not capable of approaching it at that level at this point. As an observation, it seems to me that reharms is a natural evolution before one even goes into inventing lines. You advanced players can hear harmony combinations that we newer guys haven't experienced yet.

And as you know, that's just note choices. There's also the rhythms. It truly is a very tall order to get to a stage where you're inventing something new.

I don't ever claim that I can even get to that point. My goals are more basic. Play at a gig well and have the audience enjoy it.

Actually, my next goal is just to play well enough that top players wouldn't be embarrassed gigging with me. I have a ways to go!

Something my teacher considers very important in transcription study is to learn the solo at full speed. I'm working on a Bud Powell transcription now, and she's having me stop after only two choruses to learn to play what I've transcribed. If you only figure out the notes, you're missing a lot: the touch, the accenting. It's even valuable to work out the fingering, because getting used to fingerings that are different from what you're used to opens a lot of doors. I'm finding a lot of upward arpeggios in the solo, for example, can only be played if you start with the second finger and cross over to the thumb right away. Normally, if I'm improvising and I decide to play an arpeggio, I'll start with the thumb, but starting on 2 and then the thumb opens up whole new vistas.

This also shows me that, while getting the transcription off the record is the best -- it is great ear training -- a lot can be gained from a written out transcription, if you really learn it well.

printer1, thanks for those tips. I actually don't know Passion Dance so I'll have to check that one out. Eye of the Hurricane -- I love listening to that. But I've never seen the changes to it. In a way, Autumn Leaves was much easier because I know exactly what chord it is at any moment.

These are excellent. I've really filled up my plate here.

Some of these need so much time to sink in. I still remember some lines in Matrix but if you don't woodshed it, it doesn't come back to you when you need it (at your fingers at 220bpm...). Which goes to show that the ear is the one that needs to just hear it automatically.

Lately I've been working more on the 4 Chopin Nocturnes I've learned over the years more then anything else...

I work on classical way more than jazz even if I do mainly play jazz. Playing Bach has really helped my technical shortcomings. I think it all works together, even if classical and jazz do have some slightly isolated skills.

+1 It's all music.I haven't been playing any classical since the summer, been focused on applying the material I learnt from Pat Harbison's theory class - immersing myself in chord/scale relationships, but you inspired me to break out my Bach again. Damn, it's good music!

Re: transcription. I don't spend any time in writing it down. But I rather work out a solo and/or comping style at my instrument to the recording in real time. I find that it aids the internalizing of the actual sound and the brain (inner hearing) - finger coordination.

I'm getting so frustrated notating Con Alma. The solo is all triplets for many, many bars and I can't precisely hear how to break out rests inside triplets. I can copy it on the piano. I just don't know how to notate this. It's rhythmically complex. The first part of the A section has a 12/8 feel then switches to 4/4 feel at the G7.

My worst problem with reading is reading the rhythm. Well notating it is no better.

Here's the first A. I don't know if I have the triplets lined up exactly to the bar but at least it's very close to the chords.On top of learning how to notate this, I had to figure out several notation software until I settled on Finale Notepad.This is the matching recording.Con Alma - Standards Albumhttps://www.box.com/s/zjzfc3r5o7jsbgztrug4

Early findings. All Maj7 chords are Maj7#5. All dominants have alterations, typically b9 #11 and #5.

For a "first" foray into notation you're doing a great job. but it is horrendously difficult, isn't it? It's one of the reason I don't do it - writing a solo down - any more, it takes time away from practising. but I admit, it's interesting in reading the note choices.

Yes it was horrendous. Finding out the notes was the easiest part. But I had to redo it a million times because I misheard the rhythm. And you are right, I didn't practice yesterday outside of just figuring out notes. And I didn't even play Con Alma.

But I don't think I'll have a problem now playing this without a Leadsheet. I've been staring at it long enough!

My luck at I had to pick one with a difficult rhythm. I'm glad I gave it a try. I learned so much from the process that next time it won't be so hard.

Notating rhythm is tricky. A good exercise is choosing a nursery rhyme; say Three blind mice. and write it down. Next, twinkle twinkle, and so on. Pick a key and write the notes. In no time (well . . .) you'll be picking out a be-bop head and writing the rhythm.

Notating a standard bebop head isn't so bad though as long as it's not 16ths. When I got to the part where AP played 8th notes, it's very easy to hear the rhythm. But in 12/8 with lots of rests, I'm really guessing since it's going way too fast anyway. Some of it I just used common sense and did it by singing it.

Some of my challenges...I started notating before I really took in how they were doing the form. So at the intro, I didn't realize (until after I've already notated a bit), that they start half a bar early.

Then I would listen to the bass for a marker for the chord, and I got distracted by the bass ghost note pickup that I wasn't paying attention to.

Then I notated in 4/4 thinking of eighth notes and then realized I made a stupid assumption there because it was in 12/8. So I re-notated in 12/8 then realized, he goes back to 4/4. Grrrrrrr.

Then comes the problem of figuring out rests. I couldn't do this by hand. Good thing Finale fills in the bar automatically to match the time sig.

The easiest part...copying the line on the keyboard. I have slow it down software with looping on my iPhone. Piece of cake.

But I realize that if I didn't track the rhythm right, the solo would not land on the correct chords and the analysis would be all wrong.

Now I learned: Don't notate a single thing first. Take in the big picture. Helps me listen now to other music. It doesn't take much of this to really change the thinking process.

Overdoing this though could be counterproductive. I think it is best to work with little chunks, start woodshedding, and then moving on to other things. I'm not sure it's necessary to do more than I did above unless I'm going to focus on Con Alma specifically.

This whole Con Alma transcription project revealed some new shapes to me, like arpeggiations within a whole tone scale. When I got familiar with that, going a little out on Con Alma isn't that hard at all. The issue is how not to overdo it.

I got a lot of ideas here. By looking for triad shapes in the WT scale, I could really have only one 'out' note. Either a #11 or a #5.

Now AP isn't just using a WT scale. Lots of triad upper structures. But if I'm going to have a take on what I learned here, it's that I shouldn't abuse the 'color'.

One could play this tune completely inside at moments than subtly switch to what AP is doing. And thus it really offers some fun opportunities for playing with tension/release and surprise the audience a little.

I guess these realizations are the payback for the hard transcription work.

I love the way that you can hear anything these days. It means that people can check out the music if they want to, and that wasn't really possible before.I have heard so many great things on youtube that I would have never discovered otherwise.

Not about Con Alma or any substitutions, but equally of interest to us live players: (Youtube clip above)

At 2:20 Metheny talks about improvisors and how recordings from cell phones, etc really can shut down creativity. He talks about a few well known pianists that are affected by this phenomena. Who is he referring to? KJ?

I think he has a valid point about media changing the willingness to take risks, but I also note that this probably may only apply to the big names in the industry. I wonder if I'd play differently knowing that someone was recording it? In some ways I'd think that I'd want to get every note and rhythm right, for sure, but I'd want to do that anyways. The risks I'd take in playing would first need to be explored away from the bandstand.

Let it not be said that I don't stick my neck out. Here's an early version. I have some articulation issues that I have to concentrate on. Once again when a tune is new the brain can't allocate all the thinking time to all the needed things. I also did not yet woodshed my own voicings for this.

When I listened to this it struck me that you are trying out new material, and looking to incorporate this stuff. That being said, do you ever consider singing your lines as you play? Or, do you think it may not be necessary that it is singable?Personally, if I can't sing it, chances are I can't play it.Another thing that came to mind is that this version sounds like you originally thought of the piece as being mostly tension chords rather than release. Would you play it differently now with more release points?

Scep, I can sing these lines. But I did work out the sounds ahead of time based on the AP transcription so I'm familiar with the sound. It's new material for me on many levels since I'm incorporating more ALT sounds. I can control how out I go, though I kind of like it like this.

As I said many pages back, my perception of the tune is A section is mostly tension (to varying degrees) and the B is more release. At least that's how I perceive the tune. That's certainly AP's intent with his sound because I talked to him about it when I initially showed interest in learning this (but we never worked on it).

This is a kind of modern sound and I'm beginning to feel that it's what my ears gravitate to. Not to everyone's taste I'm sure. The theory behind what I'm doing isn't all that sophisticated since the vocabulary I'm using to accomplish this is limited (a couple of items on my blog post of going 'out').

Dave Ferris posted a version a few pages back. You may want to compare to see how he looks at the tune (from the point of view of Tension/Release). This is a really interesting tune for aaalyzing that though we could all look at it differently.

I'm not always going with tension by the way. There's a chorus in there where I just play the changes exactly (no alterations).

I'm guessing that those more into bebop may not like the sound. But I will be beginning to use it in small amounts in regular standards. This is part of my refocusing.

BTW - I don't think I could have played it like this without doing the transcription earlier. It opened up my ears. So obviously I copied a lot concepts.