Slashdot videos: Now with more Slashdot!

View

Discuss

Share

We've improved Slashdot's video section; now you can view our video interviews, product close-ups and site visits with all the usual Slashdot options to comment, share, etc. No more walled garden! It's a work in progress -- we hope you'll check it out (Learn more about the recent updates).

ackthpt writes "If you're going to steal, steal big, right? Italian anti-mafia prosecutors have announced the seizure of $6 trillion of allegedly fake U.S. Treasury bonds, an amount that's almost half of the U.S.'s public debt. The probe focusing upon money laundering has also include financial dealings alleged to direct money to Nigerian sources to buy plutonium. Sound like a movie plot, yet? $6 Trillion, that's a lot of lettuce."

Crooks come up with stupid plans all the time, and often let their own greed blind their judgement. Hell look at some of the people who scam the 419 scammers. The 419 scammers are counting on people's greed to overwhelm their good sense, and then fall victim to the same thing.

Indeed such a thing would almost certainly raise eyebrows but the crooks likely didn't think it through.

Generally, no. Bonds are issued in fairly large denominations. But in this case, it would raise eyebrows because of the date. $1billion dollar bond would not be issued in 1934. No financial institution would have lent money in such one large chunk against 1 financial paper. Today bonds are issued in at least 100 million issues, but as someone pointed out, today they are registered, so it doesn't matter what the original issue is.

However, just 10 years earlier in 1924 the Germans, who live next door
to Switzerland, experienced hyperinflation [wikipedia.org]. This got so bad that they
had to change currencies and literally remove 12 zeros from the old one. Maybe
the counterfeiter got his 2's and 3's mixed up?

And a hyperinflation in Germany would affect the face value of US Treasury bonds exactly how?

Well it paved the ground for this guy who stole Charlie Chaplins beard and his pals. They later engaged in a little tour across europe that indeed did affect the US economy. But beyond that, probably not much.

However, just 10 years earlier in 1924 the Germans, who live next door
to Switzerland, experienced hyperinflation [wikipedia.org]. This got so bad that they
had to change currencies and literally remove 12 zeros from the old one. Maybe
the counterfeiter got his 2's and 3's mixed up?

The German reichsmark was issued in both metal coins and as paper. Already during WWI the real world value of these different forms of payment began to diverge. The German hyperinflation only affected ther paper money (papiermark) - bonds sold abroad were denominated in goldmark and as such stable.

the hyperinflation ended with introduction of the rentenmark - which by a fairly complex scheme was looking as much like a gold currency as a currency can do without being backed by gold (rentenmark could be exchanged for bonds that paid the papiermark value of one goldmark at maturity) and was trading 1:1 with goldmark. As prices stabilized the rentenmark was converted 1:1 into the new reichsmark.

The goldmark was never affected by all these shenanigans and during the peroid of hyperinflation big business transactions were often conducted in goldmark (or foreign currencies).

Short story is that bearer bonds pay to the bearer of them. There's no tracking of ownership. If you bought the bond and I stole it from you, you can't call the issuer to have them void that bond and issue a replacement. So literally, the bearer of the bond is the one who gets paid. Contrast that with a stock certificate - you have it, but the company knows who has them as well, or at least the transfer agent does. I steal your certificate, and you report it stolen to the transfer agent, and they void the old one in their records and issue a replacement to me.

Bearer bonds would 1. have a face value (Maybe $1000) and 2. coupons ($50 per year ).

As the coupon and/or bond came due you could take them in the bank, clip the coupons, and hand them over to the bank. The bank would then hand you cash and send in the fraudulent bond for remediation. By the time the bank figured out that they had been had, the fraudster would be long gone.

The Great Gatsby implies that the fortune is from from fraudulent bearer bonds. (The bonds we

The plan allegedly was to sell them to developing nations and dupe their governments. The mafia would create a circus theater filled with distractions to make them look like a legitimate outfit. Office space, limousines, fancy suits, lots of showmanship. They'd use foreign diplomats and politicians on their payroll to get presidents or warlords of a foreign country into a face to face meeting.

They get a leader of some inexperienced government, possibly even a wealthy warlord, of a developing nation, and try to get them to transfer $1 billion worth of wealth in exchange for a $1 billion U.S. treasury bond. It is actually very creative. Had they not been caught they might have been able to pull this off. Though I don't see how any bank would have not raised a million red flags for this transaction and the reports are that the criminals wanted to move the money through Swiss banks.

This isn't the first treasury bond scam nor will it be the last. Organized crime loves this scam. Every year a few individuals are arrested with fake bonds on them that are valued at billions of dollars. The Italian police found a bunch of fake $1 billion bonds during a routine car stop a few years ago.

Banks are greedy motherfuckers, too. I worked for one (big one) doing due diligence. I personally delivered files on unsavory corporate raiders who gutted many companies and left behind ecological disasters that had to be then cleaned up by the EPA on taxpayer dime. But since none of them were ever convicted of anything, the bank smiled politely and opened their accounts.

It's a fine line to pick the exact ratio that's believable. If you're offering 10% above market rate, then people will likely just believe that they got a good deal. If you're offering 100% above the market rate, then they'll think that there's something a bit fishy going on. You need to offer a good enough deal that they thing they're getting the better of you, but not such a good one that they become suspicious. This is where most 419 scammers fail: people are far more likely to believe that they can

The plan allegedly was to sell them to developing nations and dupe their governments. The mafia would create a circus theater filled with distractions to make them look like a legitimate outfit. Office space, limousines, fancy suits, lots of showmanship. They'd use foreign diplomats and politicians on their payroll to get presidents or warlords of a foreign country into a face to face meeting.

They get a leader of some inexperienced government, possibly even a wealthy warlord, of a developing nation, and try to get them to transfer $1 billion worth of wealth in exchange for a $1 billion U.S. treasury bond.

Well, it was a pretty ingenious scheme, but it looks like Obama is going to have to find another way to pay off the U.S. debt...

Creating fake Treasuries is a “common scam, especially in Italy,” he said. The tipoff was the “astronomical” face value of each bond, he said. Fake bonds in high denominations are more common in Europe, where people are less familiar with the face value of U.S. Treasury bonds than in the U.S., he said.

for example, the pension funds and retirement funds of the entire planet were conned into buying CDOs back in 2000-2008. those were essentially 'garbage securities' but everyone was too lazy to actually give a shit until 2008, when the government simply bailed out the crooks for 2 trillion dollars.

if you slather over a bunch of electronic securities with mathematics and "well spoken men in armani suits", you can pretty much get away with anything.

But, the staggered stars does not coincide with the common 48 state pattern of that time.

Based on what I've read, there are either lot of counterfeits of a real thing, or this was one incredibly engineered large scale counterfeit. These boxes have been found from all over the world recently, with highest concentrations in the Philippines, with people digging them up in the 1990s. There are quite a few stories to go with them, some more plausible than others. Yet, I cannot find any solid scientific evidence placing the origin of these boxes in history, other than when they were dug up or acquired and the condition they were in.

Given how interesting this could be even if it all the boxes are fraudulent due to its large scale and long history, I think this is worth trying to understand better.

It's even weirder than that... Here's the highest res shot of the front of the thing that I could find - link [divinecosmos.com]. (Caution -- source website contains industrial grade crazy. Just mousing over the link will get you on at least four watch lists.)

Zoom in on the flag. It's grainy, but I'll be damned if there aren't eight rows, alternating between 6 and 7 stars each. That's 4 x 13 = 52 stars.

Personally, I choose to believe that these are boxes sent back from the future year 1934 AA (after apocalypse), by future Americans who live in a 52 state US (50 + Canada + Mexico + Airstrip One - California [it finally sank]). In the future, the six trillion dollars barely buys a sandwich, but if they invest it several thousand years ago, they'll be rich! Unfortunately, the time traveler who was supposed to invest the money got distracted chasing after a bunch of loonies who were just trying to let all the animals out of the zoo, and the money ended up in the hands of the mob.

Hey, it makes more sense than any theory from those Divine Cosmos people.

Seriously, that is the dumbest conspiracy theory I've seen. The fact aside all the truther bullshit of "9/11 was an inside job" there's no way the bonds were real on account of the amount. In 1940 the US debt was only about $43 billion dollars (the GDP was only $97 billion). So there weren't $6 trillion of bonds floating around. The debt didn't hit the $6 trillion mark until late 2002 (the GDP was about $10 trillion). However, dates of the bonds aside, the treasury doesn't issue physical notes anymore. They are all just electronic entries in a database. Far more convenient, secure, and trackable.

Might want to lay off the conspiracy sites. Here's a hint: If someone starts going on about 9/11 being an inside job, they are a conspiracy nut.

The conspiracy theory is not what is interesting. It is the photos of these boxes and their contents that have been on the Internet for years now. The question Zero Hedge raises is why would they go through the trouble of creating counterfeit boxes? You can't cash the boxes, only the bonds.

.
It would be interesting to have independent scientific authentication on the boxes and their contents. Then, if they happen to originate in 1934, try to discover the story around them. Otherwise, if science proves

Remember that's what they are trying to do. However the boxes are fake. How can you tell? Easy: The flag. The stars are staggered, not ordered. From 1912 to 1959 the US flag had 48 stars, which were in 6 rows of 8 stars, all on a nice ordered grid. The staggered flag we see now didn't come until later. Our current 50 star flag was in 1960. There were earlier staggered flags, but not in the same 6-5 configuration.

Then there's the fact that it has like 25 stripes. The flag has always had 13 stripes.

Or some subgroup of the US government actually discreetly made those bonds, in a hush-hush but valid manner, traded them for a shitton of various valuables to some foreign instance. But their ridiculous face value and general invisibility means they can easily claim they are forgeries.

But of course no government would ever do that now would they? Because being government they are per definition on moral highground and would never do something malicious or fraudulent to further the agenda of their own per

A few years ago two old forgers, father and son, were caught. They did masterful work but their real master stroke was in authenticating the items. How do you proof something is yours and is legit? Well, you shows that you, or rather, someone long death in your family, bought it legit at an auction.

How? They used an old and real auction catalog, pointed to an item description that was similar to the item they had forged and went with a story like my father bought this item here, what do you think it is worth if we wanted to sell it? It worked wonders. The documents were 100% legit and therefor in no doubt, they just weren't related.

If you want to sell these bonds, you have to come up with a convincing story of why you have trillions worth of bonds. You don't just dump them in a shopping bag and get payed. A scam is about the details and a period container complete with dust is a nice detail.

Mind you, you would have to be bloody greedy to believe such a scam but there are plenty of greedy people on the planet.

Stalin had a plan to counterfeit dollars. Why not counterfeit bonds too? There was some very strange stuff going on in the KGB + SS back in the day. And lots of insane programs that were of low quality.

of course now days, we pay people like Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke to counterfeit dollars, but we call it 'increasing money supply'. And our economy is wrecked worse than Stalin ever dreamed of. But whatever.

FYI, it's grown from 4.6674T USD in 2000 to to 5.4588T USD in 2011. Sure, it fell for a while from the high of 5.2644T USD in 1995, but to state that their economy is not performing well only shows your stupidity.

Bzzt. The Google GDP numbers are not corrected for inflation, which means the Japanese economy has been either flat or slowly declining depending on the year you compare from. This is commonly known as their lost (two) decade(s). Japan is NOT in shape and hasn't been for a long time now, it's just that in a race to the bottom they don't stand out when the numbers are massaged just right (or enough new debt is taken on to paper things over at least until the next bureaucrat has to deal with them, who more th

The Japanese economy is doing fine when you consider that they made a self-conscious decision to stop growing the population. While the inflation corrected GDP shows only tiny year-on-year growth, there economy is booming when you measure wealth in other ways: technological penetration, education, life expectancy,... you know, all the important stuff.

Japan faulted under a ridiculous property market boom and bust, and now they are going steady.

I would guess the planned scam (Including the Nigerian connection) would be sending spam e-mails, etc. saying "as a nigerian prince, I inherited this billion dollar certificate. I just need a loan of $10,000 to pay for security, transport, etc. to have it redeemed, then you'll get $100,000 back..."

The certificates themselves would never be 'redeemed' just used to bait greedy people into getting scammed.

I'm pretty sure the letter to Nigerians, written from someone trying get their money back, promised trillions of dollars in bonds to be paid as soon as a small deposit of plutonium was deposited to help pay a lawyer who could sign over the bonds.

The probe focusing upon money laundering has also include financial dealings alleged to direct money to Nigerian sources to buy plutonium. Sound like a movie plot, yet? $6 Trillion, that's a lot of lettuce."

OK, it's the Libyans who want plutonium and used pinball machine parts, and you only need a couple heads of lettuce to generate 1.21 gigawatts of electricity with Mr. Fusion, not 6 exa-heads of lettuce. Get your Back To The Future quotes straight!

That AA battery is a strawman like nobody's business. What you're claiming is that if you take about 5000J of energy and transfer it in 4.3us, you need the average power level of 1.2GW. That's very clever of you, but this is kinda middle school physics and I'm not impressed unless you're in middle school. But since you tossed in a physical object, rather than just numbers in some pupil's workbook, let's be real, mmmkay?

Let's forget about the self-resistance and thermal capacity of a real AA nicad, or even about whatever circuit you use to do the discharge. Let's just focus on the fact that the damn thing has rolled electrodes and will have some real-life inductance.

Way to miss the point, dude. The GP was pointing out that Back to the Future's concept that it takes 1.21 GW to perform a time-travel trip is flawed in that it's a unit of power not energy. For how long does the flux capacitor need to draw 1.21 GW is important information. If it doesn't really need that much energy, then a few heads of lettuce would be plenty, as long as you have some system to store the energy you produce from that lettuce and then release it extremely quickly. Which, if you accept that

(Okay, I originally typed this in all caps...because it's funnier that way...but Slashdot's code doesn't permit it.)

I am the widow of A.Q. Khan from Pakistan. I am contacting you in good faith because I know you are a good person and will help me. I need your help in moving $6 trillion worth of plutonium out of the country. In exchange, you will receive a ten percent commission...

I am the widow of A.Q. Khan from Pakistan. I am contacting you in good faith because I know you are a good person and will help me. I need your help in moving $6 trillion worth of plutonium out of the country. In exchange, you will receive a ten percent commission...

Good point. In order for US to redeem these bonds, they would have to use them to pay back some sucker holding the real bonds and convince him/her that he/she doesn't need to redeem the new bona fide 1934 $1B ones, since they're now collector's items and will be worth far more in 30 years.

The US federal debt is only 15 trillion dollars. 6 trillion would make a big difference. Of course these are government bonds, so the US government would be obliged to pay them back, er.. something, there's no one to pay if the government has them, but that's beside the point.

With 6 trillion dollars or even half of that, you could get rid of basically all foreign debt the US has. Then your debt would be borrowed entirely from yourselves (which is mostly is now, but not completely). The reason Japan hasn't imploded, despite having 200+% of GDP in debt (compared to the US ~100%), and they've been like that for a decade, is they owe that money to themselves.

Government debt is odd. Especially because it's in a currency you control. Mild inflation, with economic growth and a close to balanced budget deficit makes even big debts like the US has go away very quickly. That won't work for japan because their population is shrinking, and aging, but it will for the US because the population is at least flat, if not growing. But 6 trillion dollars could do a lot of interesting things for the US. Including just cover the deficit for the next 8 or 9 years. (900 billion this year, and progressively less after that, theoretically).

First off, does Nigeria have Plutonium? Or just Uranium.
Secondly, Mafia is not building nukes. So, who were they obtaining Pu/U for? Obviously, they want to sell this on the black market, but who is buying? The only nations that I can think of would be North Korea, Burma, and Iran.
Of those, Iran is the likely suspect. If Iran is buying Pu on the black market, that says a lot. Basically, it means that they are trying hard to move their timeline up. The reason is that right now, they are breeding it in th

This is a very clever scheme by Obama and CIA. Now Obama can claim ALL outstanding US Govt bond were fakes, forgeries and scams, and he has already paid off all the legitimate US Bonds. That news will hit the market on Oct 22, 2012. After the steadily improving economic picture, falling unemployment rates, killing Osama, the news that USA is debt free would be the final nail in the coffin. Obama will sweep all 50 states, and Democrats will win all the houses and senate of all the states, governorships too.

Why would it? If you photo copy some bonds, why is that news? Here, I can print up some while type this comment... where is my 15 minutes?

Bonds are registered. It is nice having a piece of paper, but the paper is not important. Only bearer bonds are unregistered, and the US gov't hasn't use them for years. There are some old bearer bonds that were never redeemed, but the the total amount is less than $100M.

Huh? This story seems to have hit the press the moment it was discovered, and they all sort of ignored the absurdity of it. It's the guy with a printer argument, only expensive printer and organized mafia, but it was absurd. 10 seconds of internet searches reveals US gpd in 1934 as under 100 billion dollars, so a 1 billion dollar bond is just nonsense. That they printed 6000 of them, which is maybe a few thousand dollars in forgery is hardly that significant.

It doesn't seem like anyone important who saw them took them as actually legitimate. They found them and reported them as a result of some bad cheques (that were to the tune of 200k), and that was the end of it.

Because the scale means it was pretty much automatically ineffective. Also the instruments they counterfeited were never real. There are no billion dollar bonds floating around from 1934, and certainly not $6 trillion worth.

Effective counterfeiting requires that you are cloning an instrument that actually exists and people would accept, and that you pass it off in amounts that doesn't raise suspicion.

It's amusing, but it isn't as though these were some supergenius criminal masterminds who came close to making $6 trillion. They are some idiot criminals who had a scam pretty much doomed to fail.

LOLOLOLOLOL, how reliable is Switzerland and their swisse banks as to don't accepting fake U.S. Treasury bonds? Didn't they check the validity of the money when accepting them? Then, why did they have them fake inside?. LOLOLOLOL.

In Quantum Mechanics, $100'000 is an infinitesimal measurement value that is 99.9999% statistically undetectable respecting to the current relative totality of the current U.S. debt of >$13'000'000'000'000.00

Obama bought much plutonium under his bribery, and at same time, he did forbid to the Iran's president Ahmadinejad to fabricate its own plutonium. Period.

In the obscurity's underground of Obama, he did prepare many ICBMs with plutonium's warheads for the comming World War III in this Spring 2012 announced precipitatedly by Israel & U.S..

During this coming spring, instead of breaking out flowers, they will sprout nuclear mushrooms. What why is that?.