I keep hearing about how people hate the Instinct feature from Absolution. Keep in my mind, I didn't like Absolution and I love the old Hitman games, but I always thought that Instinct was a lot more realistic, as opposed to earlier games, because you have to scout the level before you found, say, an electrical box or a box of rat poison. Certain things about the Instinct were retarded, like how it was required to get by enemies unnoticed, or the trail of fire that gave away the enemies direction of travel. These were bull$h!t, and need to disappear from the next game. In earlier games, you have a map that tells you where everything is when you start. How is that realistic? I think the maps are always helpful just to give you a scope of how big the level is but it shouldn't be displaying points of interest, you should be able to figure it out. For the purposes of minding your surroundings I think Instinct is more realistic than the overview map. With Instinct you're aware of everything that's going on around you in your immediate vicinity, not every single fine detail for 4 or 5 square blocks. I would much rather have to go through the level and investigate and discover ways of advancing instead of being told "Go to point A, get this then go to point C and kill subject with it". The Instinct highlights objects of interest much like the old style map displayed them, so I don't see what the problem is. Plus, the Instinct was 3 dimensional, you could see someone coming down the stairs from another room, in Blood Money you had to play around with 2 or 3 different maps.

Any thoughts?

radioteque

20th Jan 2014, 21:18

I think the aspect of seeing the enemy players with this odd red aura was reminiscent of Assassin's creed, and it definitely retracted from the 'Hitman' experience.

You're right though, having everything visible on the map from the get-go does seem a little cheap. Maybe a system can be incorporated where once you find something, it gets marked down (sort of like how silent hill's maps update)

S3R6i0

20th Jan 2014, 21:35

I think the aspect of seeing the enemy players with this odd red aura was reminiscent of Assassin's creed, and it definitely retracted from the 'Hitman' experience.

You're right though, having everything visible on the map from the get-go does seem a little cheap. Maybe a system can be incorporated where once you find something, it gets marked down (sort of like how silent hill's maps update)

That's the thing, though, how do you find it? And what good would it be to have it displayed on the map after you've found it? I think the reason the old maps had points of interest is so you wouldn't go around trying to recruit everything to your arsenal, as a wrench might be a wrench or just part of the background. And if the Instinct is reminiscent of Assassins Creed than the old style maps are reminiscent of every other game out there like GTA. It's ridiculous. I think people just confused the Instinct with the linear style and the gameplay of Absolution. Plus, 47 always needs to be aware if someone is about to enter the room he's in so he could hide, I don't see what the difference is between a map and a thermal vision view mode. The Instinct is more realistic because you're aware of everything in your immediate vicinity, not everything for 4 or 5 square blocks.

Derangedxzombie

20th Jan 2014, 23:16

I hated instincts, felt like a dumbed down COD style feature. I understand it but the real instincts and skill from 47 should derive from the player observing enemy movement patterns, observing the environment, etc. Not seeing people through walls.. He's Hitman, not a x-man.

If his instincts are shown in the game it should be subtle and play into players instincts (reaction time, hearing etc) like a small audio ques etc. Otherwise the overview map was more realistic.

S3R6i0

21st Jan 2014, 01:35

I hated instincts, felt like a dumbed down COD style feature. I understand it but the real instincts and skill from 47 should derive from the player observing enemy movement patterns, observing the environment, etc. Not seeing people through walls.. He's Hitman, not a x-man.

If his instincts are shown in the game it should be subtle and play into players instincts (reaction time, hearing etc) like a small audio ques etc. Otherwise the overview map was more realistic.

But in the overview map, 47 can see everyone on all buildings of the floor, what is so hard to understand about this? :mad2: The Instinct doesn't mean 47 is X-MEN it just represents his awareness of sound vibrations and people approaching his location. If your only argument is that you don't like the way it looks, regardless of functionality, that's a pretty weak argument. What if there were no Instinct and no overview map, because they're essentially the same thing. A real assassin doesn't have an in-depth map of all the floors of a building with built in movement patterns. That's why he's an assassin, he's a bad ass. You don't sneak up behind him, he sneaks up behind you. The game can't be 100% realistic. If it was it wouldn't work.

radioteque

21st Jan 2014, 02:13

I actually never assumed the map was something 47 was holding, but something that he memorized, it was just accessible to the player so they could find their way around.

Instincts mode wasn't very functional, though. It tied into a lot of other facets of the game in a way that didn't make sense. Having to use instincts to get past a guard is downright dumb. All he does is lower his head, why should that take instincts?

I see what you're saying with how instincts allows the player to naturally see where guards are going as oppose to looking at a map and determining their movements, but i'm pretty sure all of the Hitman games didn't show the player guard/police/civilian positions on the harder difficulties. I was playing Blood Money last night and it only shows you the position of where your target is on Professional (as well as the 'key points'). But I never felt like it was telling me to go in a certain direction.

S3R6i0

21st Jan 2014, 02:31

I actually never assumed the map was something 47 was holding, but something that he memorized, it was just accessible to the player so they could find their way around.

Instincts mode wasn't very functional, though. It tied into a lot of other facets of the game in a way that didn't make sense. Having to use instincts to get past a guard is downright dumb. All he does is lower his head, why should that take instincts?

I see what you're saying with how instincts allows the player to naturally see where guards are going as oppose to looking at a map and determining their movements, but i'm pretty sure all of the Hitman games didn't show the player guard/police/civilian positions on the harder difficulties. I was playing Blood Money last night and it only shows you the position of where your target is on Professional (as well as the 'key points'). But I never felt like it was telling me to go in a certain direction.

Okay, let me present my case again, yes the Instinct was not perfect. The Instinct energy needed to bypass enemies was dumb (I forgot about that) and anything else that was tied to it, except for, maybe, the point shooting, but I think Instinct and point shooting should be separate. But for the purposes of identifying special items and enemy movement patterns, I think Instinct was perfect. That fire trail that let you know the enemies direction needs to stop, though.

MrAtmea

21st Jan 2014, 13:31

I keep hearing about how people hate the Instinct feature from Absolution. Keep in my mind, I didn't like Absolution and I love the old Hitman games, but I always thought that Instinct was a lot more realistic, as opposed to earlier games, because you have to scout the level before you found, say, an electrical box or a box of rat poison. Certain things about the Instinct were retarded, like how it was required to get by enemies unnoticed, or the trail of fire that gave away the enemies direction of travel. These were bull$h!t, and need to disappear from the next game. In earlier games, you have a map that tells you where everything is when you start. How is that realistic? I think the maps are always helpful just to give you a scope of how big the level is but it shouldn't be displaying points of interest, you should be able to figure it out. For the purposes of minding your surroundings I think Instinct is more realistic than the overview map. With Instinct you're aware of everything that's going on around you in your immediate vicinity, not every single fine detail for 4 or 5 square blocks. I would much rather have to go through the level and investigate and discover ways of advancing instead of being told "Go to point A, get this then go to point C and kill subject with it". The Instinct highlights objects of interest much like the old style map displayed them, so I don't see what the problem is. Plus, the Instinct was 3 dimensional, you could see someone coming down the stairs from another room, in Blood Money you had to play around with 2 or 3 different maps.

Any thoughts?

Agreed.

I found a new way to kill Lee Hong in Codename 47 only yesterday (I was feeling nostalgic) by using the environment.

An overview map would have told me where it was with a point of intrest, and it would not nearly have been as much fun as finding it myself.

It's one of the very few things of the Instinct feature I liked.

Derangedxzombie

21st Jan 2014, 23:45

But in the overview map, 47 can see everyone on all buildings of the floor, what is so hard to understand about this? :mad2: The Instinct doesn't mean 47 is X-MEN it just represents his awareness of sound vibrations and people approaching his location. If your only argument is that you don't like the way it looks, regardless of functionality, that's a pretty weak argument. What if there were no Instinct and no overview map, because they're essentially the same thing. A real assassin doesn't have an in-depth map of all the floors of a building with built in movement patterns. That's why he's an assassin, he's a bad ass. You don't sneak up behind him, he sneaks up behind you. The game can't be 100% realistic. If it was it wouldn't work.

It's not the same thing though, it's less realistic and makes the game easier. It is like cheating almost . If the people etc were represented in a different way and gave less away to the player because it's his awareness and heightened skill, then it would be harder and more realistic. It would be more than just how it looks, but how it works. Also the map does show everyone on all floors, but the key is you are left vulnerable because it's not in real time like instincts, it required precise timing. Is also felt more realistic because it's probably viewed on a small PDA type device which being 47 and working with a high tech agency like ICA he'd probably have access to. I would like instincts, but maybe instead if it was a set of skills you can purchase that actually heighten his senses? Like louder hearing, improved eye sight in the dark, quiet sneaking, these would make you able to sneak on people like a realistic pro (:

The only time I can accept x-ray vision is, perfect dark on the N64 with the Maians powerful gun, the Farsight lol.

S3R6i0

22nd Jan 2014, 01:05

Also the map does show everyone on all floors, but the key is you are left vulnerable because it's not in real time like instincts, it required precise timing.

Uh, noooo? Both the overview map and Instincts were in real time, hence the movement of enemies. The only difference between Instinct and the map is that one is 3 dimensional and the other is top down, both scenarios mean someone can walk up on you. Instinct had the advantage of seeing enemies above or below you without having to cycle between 3 or 4 maps. In some cases, if an enemy is on the roof, you have to cycle past all the floors of the building your in and other maps like other buildings before you opened the one labeled "Outside". That was way more confusing and cumbersome.

Don't get me wrong, there are 2 things I hated about Instinct; one being that you needed to have your bar full to walk by guards, the other was how there was a fire trail that showed where the enemy was going. If they removed these 2 things I would have no problem. But just using Instinct to see enemies and points of interests, what's wrong with that?

If they really wanted to be realistic, there would be no overview map, no location of enemies, no thermal vision and any points of interests or special items would be flashy or shiny like Resident Evil. But in order for that to work they would need to remove the background music Hitman is famous for. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to hear footsteps.

Derangedxzombie

26th Jan 2014, 13:26

What I mean is though they are both real time, with instincts you can still move and act whilst seeing enemies etc, but in overview map you couldn't move or anything unless you exited, I think I liked that restriction, it felt more tense. Especially looking at it while lock picking a door and seeing some draw closer and closer. I agree the fire trail and meter were annoying, game breaking even (fire trail) unless thermal goggles, I wouldn't mind if most things were moved and objects having a glint to show they're interactive sounds great. In older Hitman there wasn't much music until you were sneaking and ambient music would play when people are near, or especially killing someone. I liked the Hitman 2 music (epic) but I guess otherwise they could keep both instincts and overview map if both had restrictions like no fire etc?

S3R6i0

26th Jan 2014, 19:10

What I mean is though they are both real time, with instincts you can still move and act whilst seeing enemies etc, but in overview map you couldn't move or anything unless you exited, I think I liked that restriction, it felt more tense. Especially looking at it while lock picking a door and seeing some draw closer and closer. I agree the fire trail and meter were annoying, game breaking even (fire trail) unless thermal goggles, I wouldn't mind if most things were moved and objects having a glint to show they're interactive sounds great. In older Hitman there wasn't much music until you were sneaking and ambient music would play when people are near, or especially killing someone. I liked the Hitman 2 music (epic) but I guess otherwise they could keep both instincts and overview map if both had restrictions like no fire etc?

Yeah, you kinda have a point. The overview map was more restrictive and Instinct is easier. That's what made the old games fun. I just hated having to cycle between 3 or 4 maps to see if anyone was entering the building. Maybe they could create an easier system for the map. And the points of interest, I would rather look for them then being told where to go.

mikom

3rd Feb 2014, 21:58

The seeing through walls needs to go. The hints I can take when it comes to lower difficulty, and the holding down button to hide you face I can also understand. But no xray ability.

I liked the old way with points of interest on map much more. And for realism I assume he either cased the place out before hand or got intel from ICA to know where the points of interests where.

S3R6i0

4th Feb 2014, 00:40

The seeing through walls needs to go. The hints I can take when it comes to lower difficulty, and the holding down button to hide you face I can also understand. But no xray ability.

I liked the old way with points of interest on map much more. And for realism I assume he either cased the place out before hand or got intel from ICA to know where the points of interests where.

Some levels are actually parties and special events, so, no, 47 does not case out his target locations. Also, just because there's a knife somewhere one day doesn't mean it will be there again tomorrow. I like the idea better that 47 is spontaneous . There is no difference between the map and the Instinct. You're just being a baby.

mikom

4th Feb 2014, 09:02

To make it better for me that is what I imagined, but obviously it's a game and the true reasons why it's there is to help players. I also didnt say it was any difference between instinct and the map, did I? I simply said I liked the old way with the map better. For reasons already put forth earlier in the thread. But the seeing through walls where fire on the ground and people come up in different shades of color was immersion breaking for me and more importantly not as fun as having an overview of the place to plan a strategy.

The reason with my post wasn't necessarily to rag on instinct, but to say that all of it doesn't have to go. You can have a happy medium between the two. Still the map needs to come back, with or withour instinct.

mcescher1

4th Feb 2014, 16:40

i think instinct hit on an important piece of 47's abilities

the problem is that instinct does a terrible job of expressing it

mikom

4th Feb 2014, 17:19

How would you like to see it expressed?

mcescher1

4th Feb 2014, 22:38

it depends duudee...

really, i think 47 needs negotiating skills

theres been a few times where im just like if 47 were to say something he could get out of this sticky situation... i know thats kind of hard to adapt in-game but still

i think the best option is to maybe gauge 47's walk speed... like maybe slower is better ... or quicker is better... in different scenarios

or maybe make it like a 'act natural' button and maybe a 'convince' button or a 'bluff' button, if you get somehting wrong maybe you could try again in a different disguise... the correct answer would be different for different disguises correlating to who your convincing... ya' know?!

idk... i feel like just tipping your hat is not always the answer... sometimes its bluffing or hiding or acting natural, if you get what im trying to say...

oh yea... uhh instinctively i dont think anyone can see through walls and or walk paths... maybe through the use of a heat detector sure... but if we have our map this go around... we don't need to be able to see through walls... unless we can shoot through them... cause that would be fun haha

edit:

there could be like a 'bluff', 'use intelligence (available if there is info found/collected/given at the start of level)', 'threaten', or 'ignore'

or you could always have a different option for different people... for guards and disguises( some disguises may have trump cards)

the obvious controls would be d-pad ...

mikom

4th Feb 2014, 22:48

I like the negotiation idea. I wrote something similar in some thread around here. Where if you went into an hostile area or someone got too suspicious about your disguise, you could try to bluff or excuse yourself. It should still have some consequence and not just let you off scot free though.

mcescher1

4th Feb 2014, 22:51

I like the negotiation idea. I wrote something similar in some thread around here. Where if you went into an hostile area or someone got too suspicious about your disguise, you could try to bluff or excuse yourself. It should still have some consequence and not just let you off scot free though.

yeaa ... like a here, let me show you something.. in this closet!!! easy kill

AdrianShephard

5th Feb 2014, 02:58

The Instinct is more realistic because you're aware of everything in your immediate vicinity, not everything for 4 or 5 square blocks.

Please, let's not talk to much about realism in a video game. You can easily claim that the map is being continually updated by a special satellite that can read heat signatures through walls. Simple.

But in the overview map, 47 can see everyone on all buildings of the floor, what is so hard to understand about this? :mad2: The Instinct doesn't mean 47 is X-MEN it just represents his awareness of sound vibrations and people approaching his location. If your only argument is that you don't like the way it looks, regardless of functionality, that's a pretty weak argument.

As someone else pointed out, the extra challenge of being vulnerable WHILE looking at the map made the game exponentially more tense. It FORCED you to plan your movements.

The game feels more like Splinter Cell when you are allowed to see through walls (think Conviction with the Sonar goggles). It takes the fun out of the game as you are more inclined to just sneak while using instinct all the time. I guarantee you that Instinct replaced the map to appease the COD/Assassin's Creed youth that are destroying gaming. No map = no strategy = no Hitman = not getting my $$$

Yes. I am serious. The map must come back!

mcescher1

5th Feb 2014, 03:06

i agree with the shepherd... the map must come back and instinct does take some fun out of the game

i realized something while reading this as well... with instinct... youuuu kind of know whats around every corner...

that takes a lot of the suspense out of the game and makes it justtt boring

the map is totally the way to go - it adds suspense, strategy, and wanted difficulty

S3R6i0

5th Feb 2014, 09:48

Please, let's not talk to much about realism in a video game. You can easily claim that the map is being continually updated by a special satellite that can read heat signatures through walls. Simple.

As someone else pointed out, the extra challenge of being vulnerable WHILE looking at the map made the game exponentially more tense. It FORCED you to plan your movements.

The game feels more like Splinter Cell when you are allowed to see through walls (think Conviction with the Sonar goggles). It takes the fun out of the game as you are more inclined to just sneak while using instinct all the time. I guarantee you that Instinct replaced the map to appease the COD/Assassin's Creed youth that are destroying gaming. No map = no strategy = no Hitman = not getting my $$$

Yes. I am serious. The map must come back!

ALL RIGHT, ALL RIGHT! You have a point about the vulnerability part, but really the difference is very subtle and only adds a little bit of difficulty. And what you said about a satellite hovering over 47, the whole idea behind the world's most effective assassin is that he is just that, he moves like a cat and strikes like a snake. You cannot sneak up behind him and he's spontaneous and lives on his wits. That being said, the Instinct could be alleviated by having less hiding spots or making the consequences for killing people more severe, like having blood splatter on the wall or the body leaving a trail that alerts suspicion. Or for every dead/missing body the environment becomes more tense. That way, an approaching enemy will actually add difficulty. What if "seeing through walls" represented 47's hearing, and the way you sense enemies approaching depends on how noisy it is (If there's a parade outside you won't be able to see someone coming in, but if it's quiet outside and the NPC is walking over dead leaves the Instinct will pick him up)?. I understand what you're saying, I just think the map is too 2003.

mikom

5th Feb 2014, 12:14

They did it right in BM. All that other stuff you can get in other games - Hitman needs to stay with what makes Hitman unique. The thing with the blood trails and enviorment becoming more tense after bodies were found they had in BM, but they took a lot of that away in Absolution. When I play Hitman I want to feel like Hitman as much as possible. And as long as Hitman dont have xray vision, I dont want that in the game. If Hitman has superior hearing, beef up the audio and let us hear the target walking on dead leaves.

You seem to take this argument very personal. Nobody is ragging on you, but the fact remains that the reasons why the Hitman franchise has been so successful is because they gave an experience other games didn't, and by going away from that they will lose what makes them good. There's plenty of other games that does what you seem to want, you can play them instead. The map is needed and taking it away severely detracts from the experience. I want to be able to plan my hits, because that's what a hitman does.

S3R6i0

5th Feb 2014, 12:40

They did it right in BM. All that other stuff you can get in other games - Hitman needs to stay with what makes Hitman unique. The thing with the blood trails and enviorment becoming more tense after bodies were found they had in BM, but they took a lot of that away in Absolution. When I play Hitman I want to feel like Hitman as much as possible. And as long as Hitman dont have xray vision, I dont want that in the game. If Hitman has superior hearing, beef up the audio and let us hear the target walking on dead leaves.

You seem to take this argument very personal. Nobody is ragging on you, but the fact remains that the reasons why the Hitman franchise has been so successful is because they gave an experience other games didn't, and by going away from that they will lose what makes them good. There's plenty of other games that does what you seem to want, you can play them instead. The map is needed and taking it away severely detracts from the experience. I want to be able to plan my hits, because that's what a hitman does.

There were no blood trails in Blood Money, or if there were they didn't affect the gameplay, which is what I was saying. And you don't need a map to plan a hit. Anyway, we're not gonna agree. You have some valid points, as I have mine. Let's just hope the game is fun when they release it.

mikom

5th Feb 2014, 12:49

There were bloodtrails in BM and they did affect the gameplay. If you killed someone and dragged them into a room and a guard saw the bloodtrail he would follow it to the body. They even talked about the bloodtrails if they saw any.

http://www.ign.com/wikis/hitman-blood-money/May_30_2006#

S3R6i0

5th Feb 2014, 14:42

There were bloodtrails in BM and they did affect the gameplay. If you killed someone and dragged them into a room and a guard saw the bloodtrail he would follow it to the body. They even talked about the bloodtrails if they saw any.

http://www.ign.com/wikis/hitman-blood-money/May_30_2006#

Oh. Okay. I had no idea.

AdrianShephard

6th Feb 2014, 01:44

You cannot sneak up behind him and he's spontaneous and lives on his wits. That being said, the Instinct could be alleviated by having less hiding spots or making the consequences for killing people more severe, like having blood splatter on the wall or the body leaving a trail that alerts suspicion. Or for every dead/missing body the environment becomes more tense. That way, an approaching enemy will actually add difficulty. What if "seeing through walls" represented 47's hearing, and the way you sense enemies approaching depends on how noisy it is I understand what you're saying, I just think the map is too 2003.

You're missing the point. Making consequences for killing is one of the reasons Absolution sucks. Doing that will force you to sneak, and that is Splinter Cell's realm. Listen, I get what you are getting at, you like REALLY stealthy games, and so do I. But Hitman is not about being REALLY stealthy; it's about blending in in plain sight. That's the point of disguises. Letting you see through walls destroys the need for disguises! I'll just avoid people all together and not bother; that's what I did in absolution and it wasn't fun at all. It wouldn't matter if the enemies became aware that their comrades are missing, because you could still avoid their paths!

If you want to play stealth where it is actually fun, play the old school Splinter Cell games. Avoiding getting spotted is the point of that series (before that idiot Maxime Beland came on board).

I think you are getting to into the whole "genetically engineered assassin" thing. Nobody cares that he has superior strength and all that jazz --- the defining feature of 47 is that he ALWAYS is calm which comes off as cold to everybody (...because he is). It doesn't matter what Instinct represents; I don't even care if 47 DOES actually have x-ray vision, the fact of the matter is that it breaks the game.

The only way I see Instinct as being useful is if it gives 47 the ability to slow down time or something similar to aid in aiming ---i.e. bulletime or dead eye (from Rockstar games) --- it's very hard to aim in 3rd person. That way you can keep the whole "experienced assassin" schtick while actually providing functionality.

S3R6i0

6th Feb 2014, 10:00

You're missing the point. Making consequences for killing is one of the reasons Absolution sucks.

:rolleyes:Killing and hiding bodies in Absolution was easy. I think you're confused with the disguise system.

mikom

6th Feb 2014, 10:12

I full heartedly agree with every point Adrian put forth. Taking a disguise and going around like a sheep in wolf clothing with the people around you completely oblivious to what is going to happen is one of the things you dont often get in other games. That's why I really want them to go back to what makes them uniquie and expand on that. Sneaking games where you crawl around and straight up avoid enemies already exists, so there's no need for Hitman to focus on that.

AdrianShephard

6th Feb 2014, 16:07

:rolleyes:Killing and hiding bodies in Absolution was easy. I think you're confused with the disguise system.

No, I'm also taking aim at the incredibly idiotic point system. You should't be penalized for knocking out 1 person. As I recall, in BM, you could still achieve Silent Assassin rating even if you knocked out 2 people, fired 1 bullet, and of course, killed the targets (I may be a little off on the numbers).

Knowing that you have some space to still get SA rating makes the game much more fun. In Absolution, I was forced not to touch anybody if I wanted a high score.

There shouldn't be degrees of Silent Assassin; if you get the rating, you get. I.e. it shouldn't be possible for you to get a higher Silent Assassin rating than me.

S3R6i0

6th Feb 2014, 17:02

No, I'm also taking aim at the incredibly idiotic point system. You should't be penalized for knocking out 1 person. As I recall, in BM, you could still achieve Silent Assassin rating even if you knocked out 2 people, fired 1 bullet, and of course, killed the targets (I may be a little off on the numbers).

Knowing that you have some space to still get SA rating makes the game much more fun. In Absolution, I was forced not to touch anybody if I wanted a high score.

There shouldn't be degrees of Silent Assassin; if you get the rating, you get. I.e. it shouldn't be possible for you to get a higher Silent Assassin rating than me.

I always viewed the Silent Assassin rating as a trophy or achievement rather than as an official component of the gameplay. The point system displaying on the hud was annoying but able to overlook. The Silent Assassin rating is an achievement, it doesn't mean you absolutely have to play it that way. I usually just play through the first time however I feel, then I go back and get all the other stuff. I like to argue that you shouldn't be penalized for killing 1 or 2 innocent people. As long as the target is dead.

AdrianShephard

7th Feb 2014, 00:25

I always viewed the Silent Assassin rating as a trophy or achievement rather than as an official component of the gameplay. The point system displaying on the hud was annoying but able to overlook. The Silent Assassin rating is an achievement, it doesn't mean you absolutely have to play it that way. I usually just play through the first time however I feel, then I go back and get all the other stuff. I like to argue that you shouldn't be penalized for killing 1 or 2 innocent people. As long as the target is dead.

Really? I always thought that Silent Assassin is the official way to complete a level. It means you've done what 47 would've done, not leave any evidence or witnesses. It just pissed me off that sneaking around and avoiding everybody resulted in a higher point total than actually using disguises and stuff.

mcescher1

7th Feb 2014, 00:40

if you truly want to do what 47 would have done.. you get the 'ghost' rating..

personally i usually always take the first time i do a mission pretty seriously... and try to have a little bit of fun with it, then for replay, im usually looking to explore a little more, try different approaches - find interesting ways to accomplish missions - and sometimes seeing how many people i can kill and still make it out alive

i think most ratings should give you the same amount of 'points'... except for the extra challenging ones like 'ghost', 'marksman', or 'explosive expert' or maybe even 'creative killer'

i would also like to see extra points given for a 'accidents happen'... i think sometimes its hardest to make things seem like an 'accident' ... and is usually the best way to get away with something

there is also something to be said for when you create a massacre... and get out alive.. screw the witnesses .. your 47.. a clone with the agency to help you kill/bribe police witnesses media and anyone else helping with the investigation

S3R6i0

7th Feb 2014, 00:53

Really? I always thought that Silent Assassin is the official way to complete a level. It means you've done what 47 would've done, not leave any evidence or witnesses. It just pissed me off that sneaking around and avoiding everybody resulted in a higher point total than actually using disguises and stuff.

i remember in 'murder of the crows' and in 'you better watch out' killing everyyyyyyyyyyyyonnnnnnnnnnnnneeeeeee... i think i also did this in 'heaven and hell'

strap up with the m4 upgraded with the drum

at first usually you have to quietly kill people ... but then once your cover is blown just start layyyyyin'em'downnnn lol...

starting off with a few remote mines usually helps too

big crowds are the most fun to watch

Itsrob

7th Feb 2014, 06:11

I think instinct should be completely removed, at the very least removed for the disguise system. I absolutely hate how it works in absolution. It's almost as if 47 has some sort of super hero power to preform Jedi mind tricks - as if him putting his hand over his head will make people who would otherwise find him suspicious drop all suspicion.

And besides, it's just unrealistic that literally every NPC of the same type would find you suspicious. It just discourages exploration of the level and ruins the "social stealth" aspect of the older games.

I always liked the old system of the live arial minimap anyways, it's far superior than the trails of fire. A hitman of 47's caliber would have the entire area mapped out anyways, wouldn't he? It just makes more sense. And besides, the whole seeing through walls thing is just really cheesy and unnecessary.

Don't fix what ain't broken.

mcescher1

7th Feb 2014, 06:20

I think instinct should be completely removed, at the very least removed for the disguise system. I absolutely hate how it works in absolution. It's almost as if 47 has some sort of super hero power to preform Jedi mind tricks - as if him putting his hand over his head will make people who would otherwise find him suspicious drop all suspicion.

And besides, it's just unrealistic that literally every NPC of the same type would find you suspicious. It just discourages exploration of the level and ruins the "social stealth" aspect of the older games.

I always liked the old system of the live arial minimap anyways, it's far superior than the trails of fire. A hitman of 47's caliber would have the entire area mapped out anyways, wouldn't he? It just makes more sense. And besides, the whole seeing through walls thing is just really cheesy and unnecessary.

47 would have the place mapped out! for sure... and it is superior to instinct

add another vote to the abandon instinct list :flowers:

S3R6i0

7th Feb 2014, 12:35

Yeah, I think I changed my mind. I was playing Blood Money last night. Having to cycle between 3 maps to check on an approaching target, having the map unavailable while I was strangling him and while picking locks just added more tension. Actually, completely removing the map and Instinct would be even better. I suppose it could be optional.

AdrianShephard

7th Feb 2014, 20:18

Yeah, I think I changed my mind. I was playing Blood Money last night. Having to cycle between 3 maps to check on an approaching target, having the map unavailable while I was strangling him and while picking locks just added more tension. Actually, completely removing the map and Instinct would be even better. I suppose it could be optional.

Ya came to your senses :p

mikom

7th Feb 2014, 20:31

It takes a strong person to admit when they've changed their mind. Kudos to you.

S3R6i0

8th Feb 2014, 01:31

It takes a strong person to admit when they've changed their mind. Kudos to you.

Yeah, well, at the same time there are a lot of loose ends. For example, the fiber wire strangulation in Absolution was different, it was a single button tap execution. The animation was a more realistic depiction of how 47 would really perform it, quick and swift, as opposed to slow and vulnerable like in the old games. The thing about the old Hitman is that the gameplay was expressed figuratively, instead of literally, meaning that 47 operated in a way that was unrealistic, but ironically, conveyed something else entirely that might or might not have been conveyed otherwise. In the next game, will Hitman regress in the graphics and animation department and move robotically. Will he sneak up behind an enemy like a snail to strangle him or will he strike swiftly like in Absolution. These are things to consider? It's hard to imagine 47 shooting, moving and looking like he used to in this day and age. If there was a way to completely transfer the tension and the feeling of the old Hitman to a modern, more realistic style of gameplay? That's what I meant when I was talking about adding consequences for killing people, the cleaning of the blood with a time limit, adding more NPC's, more patrols from security personnel and a variation of patterns, to add tension and stress to an easier gameplay mechanic. I mean really, the big problem with Absolution was the main structure of the gameplay, which was the subject of evading through a linear path. Only time will tell.

AdrianShephard

8th Feb 2014, 04:06

Yeah, well, at the same time there are a lot of loose ends. For example, the fiber wire strangulation in Absolution was different, it was a single button tap execution. The animation was a more realistic depiction of how 47 would really perform it, quick and swift, as opposed to slow and vulnerable like in the old games. The thing about the old Hitman is that the gameplay was expressed figuratively, instead of literally, meaning that 47 operated in a way that was unrealistic, but ironically, conveyed something else entirely that might or might not have been conveyed otherwise. In the next game, will Hitman regress in the graphics and animation department and move robotically. Will he sneak up behind an enemy like a snail to strangle him or will he strike swiftly like in Absolution. These are things to consider? It's hard to imagine 47 shooting, moving and looking like he used to in this day and age. If there was a way to completely transfer the tension and the feeling of the old Hitman to a modern, more realistic style of gameplay? That's what I meant when I was talking about adding consequences for killing people, the cleaning of the blood with a time limit, adding more NPC's, more patrols from security personnel and a variation of patterns, to add tension and stress to an easier gameplay mechanic. I mean really, the big problem with Absolution was the main structure of the gameplay, which was the subject of evading through a linear path. Only time will tell.

It's funny that you mention the fiber wire animation; I was just thinking about that today. I think it would be best to return to the old animation of having to ready it (making it taut) before performing the kill; I don't know why but it made me feel more engaged in the game. I don't see anything wrong with the old school animations so, in my opinion, nothing needs to change in that department. The graphics obviously need to change (even from Absolution). To me, Absolution had this hazy filter that was present in most of the levels like Shaving Lenny and the screen also turned a bit grainy when 47 was in the dark. I really hated this. Maybe I'm seeing things though.

S3R6i0

8th Feb 2014, 04:20

Also, the way 47 automatically went into 'drag mode' after strangling his victims , instead of standing around waiting for you to press the drag button. IDK, I want the next Hitman to look and play more realistically yet still provide that tension from the old games. However they do it, all I know is I want it to play like Blood Money but look like Absolution. I agree with you about the graphics, that game was grainy and hazy as hell on my 40 inch.

mcescher1

8th Feb 2014, 04:33

i felt like i was looking at batman with a suit and a bald head a lot in Absolution... i did not like that

47 appears 'skinny' in all of the previous games

there were a lot of scenes in Absolution that looked nice, but didn't come close to making up for the gameplay

i think they need to work on creating custom '47' mannerisms

as well as bringing back a blood money type death scene... the way 47 dies (when you fail a mission) in absolution was annoying - it reminded me of uncharted s death scene.. but worse some how...

Itsrob

8th Feb 2014, 05:39

The graphics obviously need to change (even from Absolution). To me, Absolution had this hazy filter that was present in most of the levels like Shaving Lenny and the screen also turned a bit grainy when 47 was in the dark. I really hated this. Maybe I'm seeing things though.

I agree. That really needs to change in the next games. Also the excessive bloom effect was extremely annoying. I liked the clearer graphics of the older games.

gkkiller

8th Feb 2014, 06:29

Both fibre wire animations have their merits. Old one was tense because if someone saw you while tightening the wire, you were easily screwed. Absolution's made it impossible to get detected unless you were actually seen killing your victim, but was more realistic and satisfying: imo the animation where 47 jumped, strangled the target, and kicked them down was very realistic and cool. Could it be programmed so that 47 would tighten the fibre wire while holding the attack button, like old games? When he got close enough, he could raise the fibre wire to indicate that the player was in range for a kill, and on releasing the attack button, the animation would play.

On the subject of animations, the sprint/run animation has been terrible in every Hitman game so far. :/

S3R6i0

8th Feb 2014, 07:02

If the victim took longer to pass out it would make strangulations more difficult. Yeah, the strangle in Absolution was more satisfying, especially how the background went blurry and focused on 47 and his victim. Another thing they could do is make the people more twitchy and paranoid and looking over their shoulder more.

mcescher1

8th Feb 2014, 07:20

i always thought the fiber wire could be bladed...

with like small razors on the wire

i imagine it would basically just slice through the neck like a piece of ham

while simultaneously choking them :)

maybe they could have options on which 'fiber wires' you use... my guess is we will be able to upgrade weapons this go around... (god i hope they do) and maybe they will have a few different types to choose from... with slightly different effects and visuals

MrAtmea

8th Feb 2014, 13:35

I read a book once where the fiber wire had small pieces of diamond in them.

This meant that even if the enemy could somehow get his hands between his neck and the wire, you could cut your way through the fingers (by moving it from left to right) and still take him down without too much force.

Dont know if such a thing exists in real life, but it could be an used as an upgraded version for the fiber wire (quicker takedown or something like that.)

merlinm

23rd Feb 2014, 16:45

I've just quickly read the comments here, and noticed a lot of arguments revolve around "how realistic" the game "metadata" should be. I see both map & instinct as metadata features.

My personal opinion is that "how realistic" is simply not part of the equation. Un-realistic "things" are found all over the place in video games, even in previous Hitman games.

Plus, a lot of seemingly "unrealistic" game mechanisms are found in some of the most successful and fun games out there. E.g. boss fights in Metal Gear series are known to use very simple mechanics. Bosses move in an initial pattern, which you have to become familiar, then when their HP goes down they change into a more complex pattern, you need to familiarise again! Now... this is extremely unrealistic, but also very fun! I don't put stock in "realisticness" in video games. I put stock in "fun mechanics"

So in line with that, what concerns me is: what makes Hitman an engaging & unique experience? To me, the answer is: "WHEN I HAVE TO USE MY BRAIN TO SOLVE MISSIONS"

If I am given exclamation mark on the map, denoting something special about say "the left-top corner of a room". Then I need to explore that "corner of the room". Even if I get to that room, I might still have to scratch my head and have a play around. This is FUN.

If I use my x-man goggles and see exactly that it is the drink that's on the table that I need to poison, then, I don't need to explore anymore. I know exactly where to do what. This is NOT FUN to me at least.

An even MORE FUN way of giving hints, is to perhaps highlight an entire room, instead of locating with an exclamation mark. This way I have to enter the room and explore it fully. USE MY BRAIN, try different things and come to my own conclusions.

Perhaps this is the "unique niche" which Hitman occupies: "the game which lets players get lost and find their own way and get a sense of accomplishment". So I would suggest to the devs at IO to promote this kind of gameplay regardless of whether it's instincts or maps or whatever. Simple create a mechanic which promote: exploration, getting lost, going back and forth, scratching your head, solving puzzles, finding distant correlations, etc.

AdrianShephard

23rd Feb 2014, 16:58

I've just quickly read the comments here, and noticed a lot of arguments revolve around "how realistic" the game "metadata" should be. I see both map & instinct as metadata features.

My personal opinion is that "how realistic" is simply not part of the equation. Un-realistic "things" are found all over the place in video games, even in previous Hitman games.

Plus, a lot of seemingly "unrealistic" game mechanisms are found in some of the most successful and fun games out there. E.g. boss fights in Metal Gear series are known to use very simple mechanics. Bosses move in an initial pattern, which you have to become familiar, then when their HP goes down they change into a more complex pattern, you need to familiarise again! Now... this is extremely unrealistic, but also very fun! I don't put stock in "realisticness" in video games. I put stock in "fun mechanics"

So in line with that, what concerns me is: what makes Hitman an engaging & unique experience? To me, the answer is: "WHEN I HAVE TO USE MY BRAIN TO SOLVE MISSIONS"

If I am given exclamation mark on the map, denoting something special about say "the left-top corner of a room". Then I need to explore that "corner of the room". Even if I get to that room, I might still have to scratch my head and have a play around. This is FUN.

If I use my x-man goggles and see exactly that it is the drink that's on the table that I need to poison, then, I don't need to explore anymore. I know exactly where to do what. This is NOT FUN to me at least.

An even MORE FUN way of giving hints, is to perhaps highlight an entire room, instead of locating with an exclamation mark. This way I have to enter the room and explore it fully. USE MY BRAIN, try different things and come to my own conclusions.

Perhaps this is the "unique niche" which Hitman occupies: "the game which lets players get lost and find their own way and get a sense of accomplishment". So I would suggest to the devs at IO to promote this kind of gameplay regardless of whether it's instincts or maps or whatever. Simple create a mechanic which promote: exploration, getting lost, going back and forth, scratching your head, solving puzzles, finding distant correlations, etc.

Thank you for this. As you have probably seen already, I get incredibly annoyed when the "realistic" aspect gets brought up when talking about videogames. If this seemingly "unrealistic" addition vastly improves game mechanics, then it should be included.

And thank you for pointing out that the exclamation mark on the map is not the same thing as highlighting an item in Instinct. When you first start out a level in the old school games and look at the map, you don't know if the exclamation marks signify AMMO or an assassination tactic. They were only there to give you a heads-up as you would likely miss them.

S3R6i0

23rd Feb 2014, 18:30

Thank you for this. As you have probably seen already, I get incredibly annoyed when the "realistic" aspect gets brought up when talking about videogames. If this seemingly "unrealistic" addition vastly improves game mechanics, then it should be included.

And thank you for pointing out that the exclamation mark on the map is not the same thing as highlighting an item in Instinct. When you first start out a level in the old school games and look at the map, you don't know if the exclamation marks signify AMMO or an assassination tactic. They were only there to give you a heads-up as you would likely miss them.

I found myself moving straight towards these exclamation marks and advancing through the level with them, rather than exploring. In flatline for example, from the very start I knew that I could kill a patient and dump his body, or steal a man's referral or where the security office was, with only 1 guard inside. After I disguised myself as security the map told me where my next point of advancement was, the looney ward. It was almost linear. After a while the game was still fun but a lot of the challenge was gone.

S3R6i0

23rd Feb 2014, 19:55

So in line with that, what concerns me is: what makes Hitman an engaging & unique experience? To me, the answer is: "WHEN I HAVE TO USE MY BRAIN TO SOLVE MISSIONS"

If I am given exclamation mark on the map, denoting something special about say "the left-top corner of a room". Then I need to explore that "corner of the room". Even if I get to that room, I might still have to scratch my head and have a play around. This is FUN.

If I use my x-man goggles and see exactly that it is the drink that's on the table that I need to poison, then, I don't need to explore anymore. I know exactly where to do what. This is NOT FUN to me at least.

An even MORE FUN way of giving hints, is to perhaps highlight an entire room, instead of locating with an exclamation mark. This way I have to enter the room and explore it fully. USE MY BRAIN, try different things and come to my own conclusions.

Okay, in Blood Money, the level A New Life, for example, Sticky the Clown's van is outside. An exclamation mark would call you there, from there you have to put 2 and 2 together; kid's party, a clown, there's a box to hide a body: obviously I'll stand here and wait for a clown to arrive. With the X-Ray vision, you have to walk to van and hold down the button first before the van or the coffin are highlighted for you. From there, you're right back to point B, having to reason a solution. It really isn't much different. Also, the exclamation mark didn't give you a vague idea of where the item was, it was pin point accurate. Instinct adds a little more challenge because you have to explore the world, rather then being told "Go to point A. Once you get to point A you'll be that much closer to point B", it's almost linear.

I agree with what you said about highlighting full rooms. Although, because of items that may be outside, a GTA V style mini-map where the location is marked by a large colored circle to give a vague idea of where it is, would be much better. Only when you're near it. Maybe there could be multiple items in the same spot, to throw the player off, so you have to explore all possibilities.

To put things in perspective, let's talk about a game like Resident Evil (early RE), arguably one of the best puzzle formats, and there were no exclamation marks and all the items were highlighted with a shiny dot. Say you found a blood pack early in the level, and you had no idea what it was for until later on when you encountered a blood sucking leech monster. The blood pack provided a diversion for you to escape. Now, as a twist, what if later on you encounter 3 of these monsters and now you have to battle them all because you spent your only blood pack? So, rather then fighting 3 you figure out a way to defeat the first guy. After evading him for a while you realize there are gallons of fuel you can knock over and shoot. That's problem solving, without all the exclamation marks.

AdrianShephard

23rd Feb 2014, 20:34

I found myself moving straight towards these exclamation marks and advancing through the level with them, rather than exploring. In flatline for example, from the very start I knew that I could kill a patient and dump his body, or steal a man's referral or where the security office was, with only 1 guard inside. After I disguised myself as security the map told me where my next point of advancement was, the looney ward. After a while the game was still fun but a lot of the challenge was gone.

That's just one level, and to add, it's more of a straightforward level because there are only 2 ways (I know there are 2 ways out, but I don't know if there is only 1 or 2 ways in) into the psycho ward.

The map is there as a reference. It doesn't "tell you" to go anywhere, it simply states where your objective (in this case, the guy in the cell) is because it is easy to get lost in the facility. And the exclamation marks do not tell you what is in the room, it only says that it is a place of interest. Note that not all of the assassination techniques are marked on the map (something Absolution did).

AdrianShephard

23rd Feb 2014, 20:47

Okay, in Blood Money, the level A New Life, for example, Sticky the Clown's van is outside. An exclamation mark would call you there, from there you have to put 2 and 2 together; kid's party, a clown, there's a box to hide a body: obviously I'll stand here and wait for a clown to arrive. With the X-Ray vision, you have to walk to van and hold down the button first before the van or the coffin are highlighted for you. From there, you're right back to point B, having to reason a solution. It really isn't much different. Also, the exclamation mark didn't give you a vague idea of where the item was, it was pin point accurate. Instinct adds a little more challenge because you have to explore the world, rather then being told "Go to point A. Once you get to point A you'll be that much closer to point B", it's almost linear.

I agree with what you said about highlighting full rooms. Although, because of items that may be outside, a GTA V style mini-map where the location is marked by a large colored circle to give a vague idea of where it is, would be much better. Only when you're near it. Maybe there could be multiple items in the same spot, to throw the player off, so you have to explore all possibilities.

Again, you bring up Blood Money. That game featured many small levels similar to Absolution. Your argument only holds for small levels. You neglect to see the points that downplay your argument as well. I can use Instinct all the while I'm walking towards the highlighted marker, something you can't do with the map. Seriously, stop bringing up Blood Money and replay Hitman 2/ get your hands on Hitman 1. Those are representative of what levels/the map should be.

One more thing, the exclamation point was only accurate when outdoors but inside it wasn't. At least that's what I remember (I know for a fact that this was the case for Hitman 2).

S3R6i0

23rd Feb 2014, 21:06

That's just one level, and to add, it's more of a straightforward level because there are only 2 ways (I know there are 2 ways out, but I don't know if there is only 1 or 2 ways in) into the psycho ward.

The map is there as a reference. It doesn't "tell you" to go anywhere, it simply states where your objective (in this case, the guy in the cell) is because it is easy to get lost in the facility. And the exclamation marks do not tell you what is in the room, it only says that it is a place of interest. Note that not all of the assassination techniques are marked on the map (something Absolution did).

In Flatline, there 4 ways to get inside the hospital. 3 of those ways are marked with exclamation points. WTF? Challenge is provided by the structure and design of the level, so having exclamation points doesn't offer any advantages.

Another example from Blood Money, the Las Vegas mission A House of Cards, quite possibly the most complex level in the game and one of my favorites. In order to lure the professor out his suite, there is a fire alarm around the corner. When you trigger it, everyone, including the professor and his bodyguards run out of the room. Here, you can either enter his room or shoot him in the hallway. There was no exclamation point for the fire alarm. The overview map was completely useless. The alarm was triggered by using your head. You could very well have walked by the alarm and missed it. The overview map and the points of interest are not needed. You can also make the argument that the X-Ray vision isn't needed also. But when you compare the two, the X-Ray vision adds a little more challenge because you have to explore. What if only some items were highlighted and not others. What if nothing was highlighted. Then you have to be more indiscriminate about what you interact with. Same goes for the exclamation marks. It's the same thing. lol! The X-Ray is more useful and more challenging because it could be used as a sound monitor, it could be used to identify NPC's that have seen you in another disguise, and it could highlight hints. And it doesn't display everything for a mile, only around your immediate vicinity. I think when people are reminded of the X-Ray vision they mix it up with everything that was wrong about Absolution.

S3R6i0

23rd Feb 2014, 21:32

I can use Instinct all the while I'm walking towards the highlighted marker, something you can't do with the map.

What if you were forced to stand still?

Seriously, stop bringing up Blood Money and replay Hitman 2/ get your hands on Hitman 1. Those are representative of what levels/the map should be.

The reason I bring up Blood Money is because all I hear is "MAKE BLOOD MONEY 2". You'd be the first person I've heard say that Blood Money's gameplay is worse than earlier Hitman games.

AdrianShephard

23rd Feb 2014, 21:42

In Flatline, there 4 ways to get inside the hospital. 3 of those ways are marked with exclamation points. WTF? Challenge is provided by the structure and design of the level, so having exclamation points doesn't offer any advantages.

When I said "psycho ward", I meant the place with all of the orderlies.

Another example from Blood Money, the Las Vegas mission A House of Cards, quite possibly the most complex level in the game and one of my favorites. In order to lure the professor out his suite, there is a fire alarm around the corner. When you trigger it, everyone, including the professor and his bodyguards run out of the room. Here, you can either enter his room and shoot him in the hallway. There was no exclamation point for the fire alarm. The overview map was completely useless. The alarm was triggered by using your head. You could very well have walked by the alarm and missed it.

Which is my point exactly! The map should NOT point everything out for you! A few unique approaches would be nice but the game SHOULDN'T give you all the answers! In the same vein, I think it would be helpful for them to point out where hidden ammo stashes are (like in "An Invitation to a Party" in which guns and ammo were hidden behind a dumpster in an obscure place).

The overview map and the points of interest are not needed. You can also make the argument that the X-Ray vision isn't needed also. But when you compare the two, the X-Ray vision adds a little more challenge because you have to explore.

Before I continue, play "Tubeway Torpedo" from Hitman 2. Tell me if the level would have been harder if you had Instinct. Spoiler alert: the answer is no, the level would have been immensely easier! Why? Oh! It's the fact that while you are "looking for the next exclamation point" (which isn't how you are supposed to play the game BTW), your defenseless and will most likely get caught.

The problem with BM is that there are not enough consequences for acting like a complete dip **** or walking in circles. That's why you can easily play the game going from point-of-interest to point-of-interest.

AdrianShephard

23rd Feb 2014, 21:49

What if you were forced to stand still?

That would change things immensely! But at that point, the depth perception would be screwed up and the map would be better.

The reason I bring up Blood Money is because all I hear is "MAKE BLOOD MONEY 2". You'd be the first person I've heard say that Blood Money's gameplay is worse than earlier Hitman games.

Actually, from what I've seen on these forums, you have been the only person to explicitly say "remake Blood Money". The gameplay of Blood Money is better than the other games (I never said it wasn't). But the game isn't perfect in every way. For one, I, as many others have said, think that Hitman 2 has a better soundtrack. The levels are also a bit bigger in Hitman 2 and the game is overall more challenging. The challenging part is opinion based I suppose but I think everyone agrees that you can get away with more in BM than in SA.

Consider the alternative, running towards an exclamation mark. Anyway, I meant something that would start to glow when you got near it, not 3 or 5 glowing spots on the map at the beginning of the level.

AdrianShephard

23rd Feb 2014, 22:24

Consider the alternative, running towards an exclamation mark. Anyway, I meant something that would start to glow when you got near it, not 3 or 5 glowing spots on the map at the beginning of the level.

Except that you are defenseless every time you check the map to see if you are going the right way, which makes all the difference. Also, you don't know where the enemies are since the last time you checked the map which, again, adds to the challenge.

S3R6i0

23rd Feb 2014, 22:29

Except that you are defenseless every time you check the map to see if you are going the right way, which makes all the difference. Also, you don't know where the enemies are since the last time you checked the map which, again, adds to the challenge.

I wasn't really serious about the glowing circles, but you could very well be spotted as long as the NPC is far away.

GEXL47

23rd Mar 2014, 00:20

I'm almost done with my first playthrough of Hitman: Absolution, and I'm puzzled by the complaints over waypoint markers, highlighted enemies, and seeing through walls. AFAIK, you can turn these things OFF in the options menu. I'm playing on Expert difficulty, and all Instinct Mode does is turn the screen blue, reset detection, mark VIP targets, and allow you to go into Point Shooting mode.

Here is what I would change about Instinct Mode on Expert difficulty (or whichever best difficulty level) for Hitman 6:

1) Don't turn the screen blue. Use a more subtle effect like increasing color saturation. Or at least use a lighter earth tone if you need to tint the screen.

2) Instinct Mode should show enemy info, including highlights and enemy outlines through walls at a certain distance, instead of using radar. If radar isn't "cheating", I don't know what is. More importantly, I would rather not spend time glancing (and sometimes staring) at a little diagram in the corner of the screen. You might also limit detection indicators to Instinct Mode, maybe allowing Instinct regeneration on higher difficulty levels. Obviously, players shouldn't be able to clear the map with Point Shooting on any difficulty level. Also give a little more leeway on enemy detection while in disguise. With no checkpoints and larger sandbox levels, the difficulty of executing stealth/disguises in Absolution would be a bit too high. With that in mind, there needs to a mode/option that turns off quicksaves, and make that mode available for the first playthrough of the game.

3) Make Point Shooting simpler and quicker to use than in Absolution. I'm playing on keyboard and mouse, and it's a little clumsy to use on the fly. Granted, I haven't really needed to do this in Absolution, but that's one more
thing I would like to see changed in the level design of Hitman 6.

4) If objects you can interact with aren't already obvious, then highlight them with instinct. This includes tools, hiding places, ledges, doors windows, obstacles that can be vaulted, etc. The point is to make it easier to make quick decisions from the start (without having to hover next to every object to see if you can do something with it)

Basically, I'd like the mechanics to be balanced so that small actions aren't as tricky to execute and there is a bit less reliance on trial-and-error on the tactical level, but where the player will need to stay on the move in some spots, be a bit more aware of his surroundings (hiding places, safe spots, escape routes, etc.), and more often improvise as he goes along. This is in addition to whatever strategic thinking is needed to clear the levels. It would essentially be a game with levels smoother and a bit easier than large sandbox versions of Absolution levels, which I imagine would be extremely difficult. And I'd also like to play some intense action segments where 47 needs to constantly be on the move, alternating between evasion and aggression while employing a wide range of his skills. Kill to Evade, Evade to Kill :nut:.

By the way, Absolution has been great so far, and the disguise/detection mechanics have been for the most part, superbly balanced. I don't get why people call the disguise system broken. It works very well for this game.

S3R6i0

23rd Mar 2014, 01:42

@GEXL47

My main problem with Absolution is the core gameplay; narrow, linear levels where the focus is on evading the law instead of being a Hitman. 47 is basically off duty and it's an entirely different game. But I think a lot of Absolution's gameplay is discriminated against because it's tied with Absolution. The disguise system. The Instinct. The tinting of the screen, IMO, represents 47 going into focus mode, that's why the color changes. The highlighted NPC's represents 47's hearing, being able to hear footsteps nearby in another room. People tend to forget that there's a soundtrack in Hitman levels, which is why enemies are highlighted. The reason why enemies are highlighted, for the same reason there's a radar map in the previous games, is because 47 is supposed to be a super human, silent assassin, so having that awareness allows you to be more bad-ass, for lack of a better term. I just think that with a system like Instinct, the difficulty needs to be more balanced out so that you're not overpowering your enemies. The enemy AI has to be overhauled because now, 47's moves are more fluid and aesthetic. In the old Hitman, if you are clumsy while using the fiberwire on someone, the move might fail. In Absolution, the chance for failing the garrote is gone, therefore it should be balanced out by making the enemies more shaky and aware, requiring techniques like calling a phone or breaking electrical boxes so the enemy has to give it attention, and, yes, making the disguise system more realistic so that more NPC's recognize you. To tell the truth, I barely used the "hiding" technique in Absolution, which is probably why I didn't enjoy the disguise system. I don't know if it was just lack of forethought on my part or just poor level design, but Absolution's disguise system wasn't completely broken. Maybe it just needed better implementation.

I once suggested that 47 should be stationary while using Instinct to detect NPC's, because holding down the button while moving around the entire level is a little cheap. The overview map from the old Hitman worked the same way, except you had no vision. Basically, if 47's movement is going to follow Absolution's rule, he needs to be more restricted so that he's not just coasting along unchallenged. I think a lot of the gameplay in Absolution gets a bad rap simply because of association. Let's be honest, the assassination levels in Absolution, like King of Chinatown and Shaving Lenny were actually decent levels that required you to use your head and were good examples of how the disguise system would work. But these were 2 levels out of 20 that were just badly designed and unorthodox, so it's easy to see how everything about Absolution gets caught in the whirlwind.

I was playing the new Metal Gear Solid V recently, and I have to say, moving stealthily through the levels without some form of awareness system is impossible. MGSV requires you tag an enemy before he shows up on radar. I can't tell you how many times I was caught off guard because there really isn't a way to peek around some corners and the enemies don't make a sound once they're a certain distance from you. That's why some form of radar is needed for a Hitman game.

There are some things about Instinct that need to be removed, such as the fire trail that displays where an enemy is going. WTF is that about? 47 is psychic now. No, that needs to go. The checkpoint system, the way enemies that you've killed respawned left a bad taste in my mouth and I would gladly go back to manual saves. The manual saves from old Hitman allowed you to be more creative and they are removed in the professional difficulty. Absolution had checkpoints because the levels were linear. I can't imagine checkpoints working in a sandbox level.

Just one more thing, bring back the slow death from the fiber wire. Strangling someone in Absolution was way too easy, they were out in less than a second. There needs to be a struggle so 47 is more vulnerable. Snapping a neck should be harder, too.

You can still have a transition effect for going in and out of Instinct Mode if something like a lighter tint or increase in color saturation are not obvious enough for you. A more subtle effect would be better style, especially if the graphics in Hitman 6 are even better than in Absolution.

To tell the truth, I barely used the "hiding" technique in Absolution, which is probably why I didn't enjoy the disguise system. I don't know if it was just lack of forethought on my part or just poor level design, but Absolution's disguise system wasn't completely broken.

As far as I can tell, it would be impossible or at least extremely tricky to beat Absolution on Expert difficulty without hiding. Instinct doesn't regenerate and it drains pretty rapidly, so you can't rely on it to get past more than 1 or 2 obstacles per area. Playing Absolution on Expert reminded me a lot of the MGS games, and I think people might be ruining the game for themselves by playing it on lower difficulty settings. I haven't played any of the older Hitman games, except a few levels of the Codename 47 many many years ago, but going by what I've read, Absolution is different enough from past Hitman games that it might even be considered a different genre.

Let's be honest, the assassination levels in Absolution, like King of Chinatown and Shaving Lenny were actually decent levels that required you to use your head and were good examples of how the disguise system would work.

Shaving Lenny was also one of my favorites, especially the first part in the larger area. But it wasn't because I had to "use my head" any more than the other parts; it was because I was able to wing it on my objectives without studying enemy movement patterns too much, hitting targets when I saw an opening, and getting away with quick impromptu killings when I got spotted (due to the level layout). I liked King of Chinatown as well, and I imagine the majority of the levels in past Hitman games were more like these. I'll have to play Blood Money at some point.

Basically, if 47's movement is going to follow Absolution's rule, he needs to be more restricted so that he's not just coasting along unchallenged.
I never felt like I was just coasting along in Absolution. Are you saying that you would rather have a game with harder "movements" where you can otherwise coast along unchallenged, or the reverse? It's probably a given that Hitman 6 will have larger sandbox puzzles, but I'd still want to have elements of the smaller Absolution-style stealth puzzles in the mix.

I was playing the new Metal Gear Solid V recently, and I have to say, moving stealthily through the levels without some form of awareness system is impossible... That's why some form of radar is needed for a Hitman game.
Yes, Hitman 6 should probably have a radar. I want to know what's going on under pressure, and I don't want any guards sneaking up on me! Though I'd prefer having to look at the radar (much) less often, and I would want the info on the radar to be limited to a certain range, not have every single enemy in the level to show up on it.
*****
If it's feasible, a great idea would be to have a "3D(!) radar" centered at the bottom of the screen. It would give all the information on the screen, and it would rotate with the camera (though not necessarily tilt with the camera). This would be smoother and more intuitive than 2D radar, because you wouldn't have to mentally shift your orientation nearly as much to read it. A major advancement in immersion!
*****

The checkpoint system, the way enemies that you've killed respawned left a bad taste in my mouth and I would gladly go back to manual saves. The manual saves from old Hitman allowed you to be more creative and they are removed in the professional difficulty. Absolution had checkpoints because the levels were linear. I can't imagine checkpoints working in a sandbox level.

Absolution has no checkpoints in Expert Difficulty, which is the main reason I chose Expert. Like I said before, I would like to rely a little less on trial-and-error on the tactical level. I don't mind having to experiment and restart levels sometimes to figure things out. I even like doing this (even most of Absolution has been like this). But I also, like everyone else, want to play a game where you walk through obstacles like a Hitman, like using tricks to create "openings" where you can evade, stealth, and shoot you're way to your goals, going off the cuff while continually reading the situation.

S3R6i0

23rd Mar 2014, 23:35

Hmm... I think the reason why you enjoyed Absolution so much is because you didn't play the old Hitman games. Definitely check out the HD trilogy, or Blood Money at the very least.

No. I prefer the easier way of 47 performing basic moves. It's just that in old Hitman, there was a sense of tension that was lost in Absolution because everything was more complex. Kind of like how you think about old Resident Evil. There was a tension that is gone because his moves have been simplified. That's why I said they should make things more challenging but from a different direction, such as making the victim struggle while being strangled and making enemies harder to sneak up behind. You should really check out Blood Money. You'll see what I mean.

Checkpoints. In Blood Money, in the normal difficulty you get 7 saves. You can save the game anytime you want. The point behind this is if you die or restart late in the level you don't have to start all over again from the beginning, rekill here and redisguise there. It's unnecessary. But you can play without saving at all. It's up to you. The game isn't really that challenging. Some people are more methodical and like trying different approaches without restarting the level over and over. I found some more satisfying approaches this way. Part of the reason people hated Absolution's checkpoints is because enemies that you've already killed respawn again. So while your advancement in the level is the same, you have to kill all those people all over again, from a different vantage point. It's terrible. Even it was functional a system like that wouldn't work in a sandbox level.

Bloodflames

3rd Apr 2014, 13:05

Get rid of instinct, seeing through walls was stupid, all the instinct abilities were pretty much useless, the old bm method worked fine. What caused absolution to be rubbish was implementing these new half assed ideas. Give us hitman but a new story, new contracts and better graphics and you will have a happy fanbase.

S3R6i0

4th Apr 2014, 03:19

Get rid of instinct, seeing through walls was stupid, all the instinct abilities were pretty much useless, the old bm method worked fine. What caused absolution to be rubbish was implementing these new half assed ideas. Give us hitman but a new story, new contracts and better graphics and you will have a happy fanbase.

Seeing through walls is stupid? Okay, there are games like The Last of Us and Assassins Creed that use the same feature. As a matter of fact, old school Hitman you couldn't see through walls but you had the overview map which let you see enemies on different floors in different buildings. Please explain the difference.

AdrianShephard

12th Apr 2014, 03:55

Seeing through walls is stupid? Okay, there are games like The Last of Us and Assassins Creed that use the same feature. As a matter of fact, old school Hitman you couldn't see through walls but you had the overview map which let you see enemies on different floors in different buildings. Please explain the difference.

1) Assassin's Creed is crap. Don't ever bring that series into a discussion (unless you're talking about the first 3). This isn't only my opinion, it's the general consensus.

2) Just because another series has had a similar feature doesn't make it alright for every genre.

3) I don't want to extend this thread again by telling you the difference between the map and seeing through walls. If you want the answer, look at the previous pages. Too lazy to read? Instinct makes the game play like Splinter Cell. The map requires strategy. There is no incentive to use disguises if the option to avoid people altogether is present (like Absolution).

4) For someone who touts about Blood Money being the best in the series and how Hitman 6 should be Blood Money 2, you sure seem open to the idea of changing a key mechanic of the series. Letting the player see through walls COMPLETELY changes the dynamic of the game.

Itsrob

12th Apr 2014, 16:32

1) Assassin's Creed is crap. Don't ever bring that series into a discussion (unless you're talking about the first 3). This isn't only my opinion, it's the general consensus.

2) Just because another series has had a similar feature doesn't make it alright for every genre.

3) I don't want to extend this thread again by telling you the difference between the map and seeing through walls. If you want the answer, look at the previous pages. Too lazy to read? Instinct makes the game play like Splinter Cell. The map requires strategy. There is no incentive to use disguises if the option to avoid people altogether is present (like Absolution).

4) For someone who touts about Blood Money being the best in the series and how Hitman 6 should be Blood Money 2, you sure seem open to the idea of changing a key mechanic of the series. Letting the player see through walls COMPLETELY changes the dynamic of the game.

Well said. I hope they remove the instinct system and go back to the previous games map system.

S3R6i0

12th Apr 2014, 18:24

1) Assassin's Creed is crap. Don't ever bring that series into a discussion (unless you're talking about the first 3). This isn't only my opinion, it's the general consensus.

2) Just because another series has had a similar feature doesn't make it alright for every genre.

3) I don't want to extend this thread again by telling you the difference between the map and seeing through walls. If you want the answer, look at the previous pages. Too lazy to read? Instinct makes the game play like Splinter Cell. The map requires strategy. There is no incentive to use disguises if the option to avoid people altogether is present (like Absolution).

4) For someone who touts about Blood Money being the best in the series and how Hitman 6 should be Blood Money 2, you sure seem open to the idea of changing a key mechanic of the series. Letting the player see through walls COMPLETELY changes the dynamic of the game.

So unless I'm talking about the first 3 Assassins Creed games it's okay? Jesus!

Secondly, I never said I wanted Blood Money 2. For someone who objects to Blood Money 2 you sure seem anxious to stick to the same formula. Also, I made it clear on this thread that I was talking only about Instinct in regards to scanning for NPC's, not the disguises. Maybe you should go back and read.

There is no difference between "seeing through walls" and having a mile-radius psychic ability, except that the overview map forced you to remain still, in which case they can force the player to stand still while using Instinct.

AdrianShephard

12th Apr 2014, 20:16

So unless I'm talking about the first 3 Assassins Creed games it's okay? Jesus!

Secondly, I never said I wanted Blood Money 2. For someone who objects to Blood Money 2 you sure seem anxious to stick to the same formula. Also, I made it clear on this thread that I was talking only about Instinct in regards to scanning for NPC's, not the disguises. Maybe you should go back and read.

There is no difference between "seeing through walls" and having a mile-radius psychic ability, except that the overview map forced you to remain still, in which case they can force the player to stand still while using Instinct.

AC has no place in this forum, even if you're talking about the first 3. The series is the COD of the 3rd person genre. Of course, not all COD games are bad. The first 4 were fine in my opinion (MW2 had the most addicting multiplayer).

Anyway, I'm digressing.

Yes, I'm wrong. You never explicitly said to make Blood Money 2; you only bring it up in every thread on this forum.

And don't try to use my reasoning against myself. Yes, I am against a Blood Money 2 and it's because I feel like the other Hitman games (shocker, there are games other than BM) overall are better. I know people will disagree with me, but I feel like BM is overrated. Its gameplay was the only major improvement over its predecessors (graphics don't count). Contracts has a better atmosphere and Hitman 2 has better missions/soundtracks. I'm not saying BM is a bad game, I definitely enjoyed it more than HM: 1. Again, this is my opinion. But this doesn't matter because the point of the response wasn't about how I feel about a BM 2.

Going back to my point: The "same formula" of using a map to strategically move through a level isn't unique to BM (which is why I said "shocker" in the previous paragraph, in case you are still wondering). It's something that worked and didn't need to be changed.

In regards to the disguises thing I brought up: I don't know if I didn't explain myself clearly or if you just lack reading comprehension skills. Either way, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I said you don't need disguises if you have Instinct because you can play the game like Splinter Cell i.e. you can play the game without ever being spotted. Since you only understand in Blood Money analogies, there are levels in BM that are nearly impossible without using a disguise (same goes for other HM games). I didn't bring up the other aspect of Instinct that makes you "rub your head" when people are getting suspicious.

Standing still isn't the only difference between map and Instinct. With the map, you can only see one level of a building at a time whereas Instinct allows you to see all guards on all levels. Instinct on higher difficulties needs to be refilled by completing objects/killing others which is totally against the Hitman formula. You can't see hallways and rooms with Instinct, only people and objects. Therefore you can't plan out your moves because you don't know where you are going in the first place! You only know where your objective is and where the obstacles are, making the game feel 2-dimensional. In Absolution, half the time I didn't know where I was going, I only knew that I had to avoid the glowing yellow people and sneak towards the glowing red person. For more practical purposes, a map is more useful on a larger level than Instinct. For more personal reasons, a map is harder to read than just seeing through walls so it takes longer to plan out my moves, leaving me vulnerable.

One more thing, a map isn't a psychic ability. It's a map. Yes, it shows real time updates of where people are, but it's still a map. Unless 47 is secretly a bat, I don't see how Instinct is "realistic" (I only bring this up because you can't get over the fact that games use mechanics that don't 'make sense').

S3R6i0

12th Apr 2014, 21:07

1) I never said AC was the greatest series in history and all games should be modeled after it. I also brought up Last of Us of which you seemed to have no issue with. It's just that, for the purposes of displaying enemies the system evolves with every new generation of hardware. Seeing through walls is the natural progression. Going to a map is less immersive for something that is supposed to simulate awareness.

2) You said: "With the map, you can only see one level of a building at a time whereas Instinct allows you to see all guards on all levels." Way to twist the truth. The map displays all NPC's on the current floor. Instinct displays all NPC's in a spheric radius around 47, horizontal and vertically. 47 can sense somebody walking down a staircase down to his level (GOD FORBID), whereas with the map you have to fidget between 2 or 3 maps like a newspaper.

3) You said: "Yes, I'm wrong. You never explicitly said to make Blood Money 2; you only bring it up in every thread on this forum." How's this, you want a Contracts sequel, I want a Blood Money sequel. We're even. Your logic is absurd. "And don't try to use my reasoning against myself." I'm only mirroring your argument because it was inaccurate and ironic.

4) You said: "In Absolution, half the time I didn't know where I was going, I only knew that I had to avoid the glowing yellow people and sneak towards the glowing red person." Here you go again, talking in context of the disguise system when we're discussing the map. Imagine Absolution with Blood Money's disguise system, your statement is now irrelevant.

5) You said: "You can't see hallways and rooms with Instinct, only people and objects. Therefore you can't plan out your moves because you don't know where you are going in the first place! You only know where your objective is and where the obstacles are, making the game feel 2-dimensional." Oh, really? I guessed you missed the target in Shaving Lenny where you had the option to electrocute him or push him into a pool of sulphuric acid and both accident points were at each end of his patrol. Or the option to kill the King of Chinatown by blowing up his car or disguising as his drug dealer and poisoning the dope. Oh, yeah, you couldn't plan anything in Absolution.

6) Lastly, you couldn't be any more wrong or alone about Blood Money. Contracts had better atmosphere? After The Meat King Party the game was a deep depression wonderland. And Hitman 2 is dated as f^*$.

AdrianShephard

12th Apr 2014, 22:11

1) I never said AC was the greatest series in history and all games should be modeled after it. I also brought up Last of Us of which you seemed to have no issue with. It's just that, for the purposes of displaying enemies the system evolves with every new generation of hardware. Seeing through walls is the natural progression. Going to a map is less immersive for something that is supposed to simulate awareness.

2) You said: "With the map, you can only see one level of a building at a time whereas Instinct allows you to see all guards on all levels." Way to twist the truth. The map displays all NPC's on the current floor. Instinct displays all NPC's in a spheric radius around 47, horizontal and vertically. 47 can sense somebody walking down a staircase down to his level (GOD FORBID), whereas with the map you have to fidget between 2 or 3 maps like a newspaper.

3) You said: "Yes, I'm wrong. You never explicitly said to make Blood Money 2; you only bring it up in every thread on this forum." How's this, you want a Contracts sequel, I want a Blood Money sequel. We're even. Your logic is absurd. "And don't try to use my reasoning against myself." I'm only mirroring your argument because it was inaccurate and ironic.

4) You said: "In Absolution, half the time I didn't know where I was going, I only knew that I had to avoid the glowing yellow people and sneak towards the glowing red person." Here you go again, talking in context of the disguise system when we're discussing the map. Imagine Absolution with Blood Money's disguise system, your statement is now irrelevant.

5) You said: "You can't see hallways and rooms with Instinct, only people and objects. Therefore you can't plan out your moves because you don't know where you are going in the first place! You only know where your objective is and where the obstacles are, making the game feel 2-dimensional." Oh, really? I guessed you missed the target in Shaving Lenny where you had the option to electrocute him or push him into a pool of sulphuric acid and both accident points were at each end of his patrol. Or the option to kill the King of Chinatown by blowing up his car or disguising as his drug dealer and poisoning the dope. Oh, yeah, you couldn't plan anything in Absolution.

6) Lastly, you couldn't be any more wrong or alone about Blood Money. Contracts had better atmosphere? After The Meat King Party the game was a deep depression wonderland. And Hitman 2 is dated as f^*$.

Grow up.

S3R6i0

12th Apr 2014, 22:15

You've run out of juice. Pretty lame.

AdrianShephard

12th Apr 2014, 22:27

You need to look up the meaning of the terms "opinion" and "twist the truth". You also lack critical reading skills. I'm not about to waste my time responding to all of the idiotic 'points' you made because any person with a couple of brain cells can see how you are wrong.

Because I'm nice, I'll give you 1 example:

"Oh, really? I guessed you missed the target in Shaving Lenny where you had the option to electrocute him or push him into a pool of sulphuric acid and both accident points were at each end of his patrol. Or the option to kill the King of Chinatown by blowing up his car or disguising as his drug dealer and poisoning the dope. Oh, yeah, you couldn't plan anything in Absolution."

Now I wasn't talking about planning on how to kill a target. I was talking about moving from point A to point B. Get it?

If you honestly have this much trouble reading/understanding a written work and forming a cohesive argument in response, you will fail the SAT/ACT or any standardized test requiring you to think.

P.S.: Nowhere did I say I want a remake/sequel of anything.

S3R6i0

12th Apr 2014, 22:36

Riiiiiiiiiiiight!

What about your statement where you started talking in context of the disguise system to put down the X-Ray vision, i.e., avoiding the yellow glowing people, as that was due to the flawed disguise system, and had nothing to do with the X-Ray vision because if it had Blood Money's disguise system you wouldn't need to worry?

Let's go, Mr. Einstein, Mr. reading comprehension, let's see you take a stab at that one and just push aside the simple cop-outs for the moment.

"Now I wasn't talking about planning on how to kill a target. I was talking about moving from point A to point B. Get it?" No. I don't. I don't think anyone knows what the hell you're talking about.

AdrianShephard

12th Apr 2014, 22:43

Riiiiiiiiiiiight!

What about your statement where you started talking in context of the disguise system to put down the X-Ray vision, i.e., avoiding the yellow glowing people, as that was due to the flawed disguise system, and had nothing to do with the X-Ray vision because if it had Blood Money's disguise system you wouldn't need to worry?

Let's go, Mr. Einstein, Mr. reading comprehension, let's see you take a stab at that one just the push aside the simple cop-outs at the moment.

"Now I wasn't talking about planning on how to kill a target. I was talking about moving from point A to point B. Get it?" No. I don't. I don't think anyone knows what the hell you're talking about.

I don't think you even know what "critical reading" is. Google it.

Here is my answer to your question: Blood Money's disguise system is to forgiving. I can play that game without a map or Instinct.

S3R6i0

12th Apr 2014, 22:48

OMG! What a sorry excuse for a cop-out.

How's this for "critical reading"? Since the topic is about the X-Ray vision don't speak in context of the disguise system or anything that has nothing to do with it. Can you read that critically?

AdrianShephard

12th Apr 2014, 22:52

OMG! What a sorry excuse for a cop-out.

How's this for "critical reading"? Since the topic is about the X-Ray vision don't speak in context of the disguise system or anything that has nothing to do with it. Can you read that critically?

Thank you. You have confirmed that you have no idea what that word means.

S3R6i0

12th Apr 2014, 22:54

I don't think you even know what "critical reading" is. Google it.

Here is my answer to your question: Blood Money's disguise system is to forgiving. I can play that game without a map or Instinct.

Ladies and gentlemen, he never answered me. He only edited his comment after I replied to him. What a sad individual you are. What are you, 12? That's okay. I'll let you play now, young man. This discussion is over.

AdrianShephard

13th Apr 2014, 00:23

Ladies and gentlemen, he never answered me. He only edited his comment after I replied to him. What a sad individual you are. What are you, 12? That's okay. I'll let you play now, young man. This discussion is over.

I don't know if you can see the edit history and the times of when the edits occurred, but if you can, then you'll see that you are wrong.

Don't get mad at me for your inability to comprehend. Any answer I give will just confuse you, then you'll write a diatribe on something that I didn't imply/say.

RoboCop

13th Apr 2014, 00:44

lol some people cant read

Adebisi

7th Jun 2014, 12:09

Sorry to bump an old thread, but for the sake of "just in case the devs read this far" I'd like to add my 2 cents about Instinct.

It's a cheap and detracting system. I moved through Absolution on Expert (I like having saves) but only ever used Instinct once, and that was in the intro when I was forced to.

Obviously everybody takes something different out of each game, and what they like about Hitman is going to be subjective. However, I believe for the majority of people, a lot of the fun in the old games derives from exploring the environment, experimenting with different methods, and pulling off a clean hit and moving on before anyone knows. You do not get that experience if you have a system like Instinct that holds your hand and points everything out for you. I don't want to see NPC's through walls and I don't want highlighted objects that remind me I'm in a game - a terrible thing to do. I want to move over to something while thinking to myself "can I use that?"

I like the map that shows everybody and their movements on it, sure it's not realistic but it works, and it's fun. My favourite title is Contracts, and I think they should ditch the Instinct system and move back to that similar style for disguises. If you change clothes, you should be able to move freely with the access that disguise gives you, as long as you don't get right in an NPC's face for too long, or do anything suspicious like pull a fire alarm right in front of them.

I think Absolution was a brilliant stealth game, but it's not the right kind of stealth for this franchise, IMO. I really hope Instinct is ditched for the old "hide in plain sight" stealth.

S3R6i0

7th Jun 2014, 20:59

Sorry to bump an old thread, but for the sake of "just in case the devs read this far" I'd like to add my 2 cents about Instinct.

It's a cheap and detracting system. I moved through Absolution on Expert (I like having saves) but only ever used Instinct once, and that was in the intro when I was forced to.

Obviously everybody takes something different out of each game, and what they like about Hitman is going to be subjective. However, I believe for the majority of people, a lot of the fun in the old games derives from exploring the environment, experimenting with different methods, and pulling off a clean hit and moving on before anyone knows. You do not get that experience if you have a system like Instinct that holds your hand and points everything out for you. I don't want to see NPC's through walls and I don't want highlighted objects that remind me I'm in a game - a terrible thing to do. I want to move over to something while thinking to myself "can I use that?"

I like the map that shows everybody and their movements on it, sure it's not realistic but it works, and it's fun. My favourite title is Contracts, and I think they should ditch the Instinct system and move back to that similar style for disguises. If you change clothes, you should be able to move freely with the access that disguise gives you, as long as you don't get right in an NPC's face for too long, or do anything suspicious like pull a fire alarm right in front of them.

I think Absolution was a brilliant stealth game, but it's not the right kind of stealth for this franchise, IMO. I really hope Instinct is ditched for the old "hide in plain sight" stealth.

Can you just explain to me how seeing enemies through walls is any different than seeing enemies 2 floors above you in another building through the overview map? I agree that every item shouldn't be highlighted. In fact, I think that everything in the level that isn't nailed to the floor, 47 should be able to pick up. The problem I had with Blood Money and earlier titles is that you never knew when an item could be interacted with. You could explore the entire level trying to interact with everything from the stove to the radio and stumble upon maybe 1 or 2 discoveries. Not to mention, that pretty much every important item was displayed on the map with an exclamation mark. The task of looking under every last stone becomes tedious. I think both systems were flawed when it came to showing items of interest. As for the NPC's, I think Instinct is the best method. Something about going to a map killed the immersion for me.

Aybroe

7th Jun 2014, 22:52

On harder difficulties you could only see the targets from the map and the fear of getting busted while looking at the map was present. If I'd get to decide, I would too ditch Instinct and get the unrealistic-but-still-awesome satellite map back. Or at least an option to play the game TOTALLY WITHOUT INSTINCT without it breaking the game. That means no need to use instinct in groups or disguises. Rubbing the back of your head makes you look only more suspicious, not the other way around. The disguise system in BM was forgiving, yes, but also a lot better compared to what we saw in Absolution.

Seeing guards and their paths is just overpowered. I think IO was trying to get rid of the "Trial&Error" style of play, of which many people complained about. But I think that's what Hitman was mostly about: Observing, Planning, Executing. If failing, repeat. The feeling when you got away without anyone having the slightest clue was the most rewarding experience I've had in videogames. And I don't want no superpowers making my day easier.

S3R6i0

7th Jun 2014, 23:46

On harder difficulties you could only see the targets from the map and the fear of getting busted while looking at the map was present. If I'd get to decide, I would too ditch Instinct and get the unrealistic-but-still-awesome satellite map back. Or at least an option to play the game TOTALLY WITHOUT INSTINCT without it breaking the game. That means no need to use instinct in groups or disguises. Rubbing the back of your head makes you look only more suspicious, not the other way around. The disguise system in BM was forgiving, yes, but also a lot better compared to what we saw in Absolution.

Seeing guards and their paths is just overpowered. I think IO was trying to get rid of the "Trial&Error" style of play, of which many people complained about. But I think that's what Hitman was mostly about: Observing, Planning, Executing. If failing, repeat. The feeling when you got away without anyone having the slightest clue was the most rewarding experience I've had in videogames. And I don't want no superpowers making my day easier.

The added tension from the map was barely noticeable because the NPC's were very predictable. The difference in time was about half to 2 thirds of a second. Hardly enough of a reason to stay with such a prehistoric, outdated system. It was almost a waste of time.

Also, for example, in the game Tomb Raider, your forced to stand still while using their version of Instinct. The added difficulty is that you have to pull a full 360 to scan your surroundings. With the map, you have a top-down view so everything is displayed for you in one dimension. I don't know if you've played Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes. That game also has an Instinct-like method of displaying NPC's, except you have to first tag an enemy before he shows up on the radar. That means that some NPC's do not show up and they can spot you, so you have to be extra aware. And you have to move quietly and undetected while silently taking down enemies and it's hard. It's not a breezy walk through the park like you would imagine.

Every last 3rd person game that has come out in the past 2 years has used to the same Instinct-like system to display NPC's, from Assassins Creed, to The Last of US, Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid V, and so on. Why? Technical advancement maybe. It's the next logical step to progress in. A radar map is cheap. Especially when you have to back out to a different screen. The only reason they used a map in the first place is because they didn't have the technical capabilities to do something else. The argument that a map screen adds tension doesn't hold water. The added tension is so subtle and the NPC's are so slow and predictable that it amounts to a waste of time more than anything else. And the fact that with Instinct your forced to scan your surroundings in 360 degrees cancels that out. Plus, there are many ways to balance out the tension for Instinct, like making the NPC's smarter, quicker, more shaky and less predictable.

If I made the next Hitman, I would use Instinct to display NPC's, except I wouldn't use a complete silhouette of an NPC, I would just highlight the sound vibrations he made that echo from his feet and anywhere else he makes noise. That way you wouldn't know if it was a person or a rodent. And the potency of the Instinct would be based on location. If you're in a quiet forest, you can see every single sound wave, but if you're in a Mardi Gras parade, every sound wave would cancel each other out.

Or maybe they should just ditch Instinct and the map altogether and just play the entire game by ear, with realistic sound effects. Of course, the background music (Jesper Kyd) might cause a problem.

The point is, the overview map is cheap and primitive and we need to move forward. I think people are just being conservative because they were so disappointed with Absolution.

AdrianShephard

8th Jun 2014, 02:32

Every last 3rd person game that has come out in the past 2 years has used to the same Instinct-like system to display NPC's, from Assassins Creed, to The Last of US, Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid V, and so on. Why? Technical advancement maybe. It's the next logical step to progress in. A radar map is cheap. Especially when you have to back out to a different screen.

I disagree. Only a handful of 3rd person games let you see through walls. What is in style is a mechanic that slows down time since 3rd person automatically makes aiming harder.

The only reason they used a map in the first place is because they didn't have the technical capabilities to do something else.

I'm pretty sure IO could've pulled it off if they wanted. Games like Jedi Knight had a force power that let you see through walls and they came out around 2003.

S3R6i0

8th Jun 2014, 04:58

You know what I don't like. It's the constant interruption in game play to stop everything I'm doing to look at a map. The zoom never stays the same you have to keep switching out and refocusing every single time. If it's a floor above me that's even more buttons I have to press. I like tension but if I have to work extra hard to achieve it I'd rather not have it. They are both forms of cheating and if I have to choose I'll go with the least annoying one. They should have both forms of radar, which can be selected in the options menu.

mcescher1

8th Jun 2014, 05:51

you're annoying

S3R6i0

8th Jun 2014, 06:27

you're annoying

mcescher1, I haven't heard from you in a long time. I thought maybe you got hit by a bus or something.

Itsrob

8th Jun 2014, 07:01

Map > seeing through walls.

S3R6i0

8th Jun 2014, 07:41

Map > seeing through walls.

Map = seeing through roofs

mm24

8th Jun 2014, 18:09

Map = seeing through roofs

Not in all difficulty.

AdrianShephard

8th Jun 2014, 18:23

You know what I don't like. It's the constant interruption in game play to stop everything I'm doing to look at a map.

Splinter Cell Double Agent (Xbox 360 version) had a nice feature. You could turn on a map in the lower left hand corner of the HUD that showed real-time movements of every enemy near you (they showed up as yellow dots...enemies above/below you showed up as gray dots). It actually looked like a satellite image of where you were. The catch was that if you moved, the radar would scramble and you would only see static.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5bijoHms5c

Start at 2:55 and you'll see.

The zoom never stays the same you have to keep switching out and refocusing every single time. If it's a floor above me that's even more buttons I have to press. I like tension but if I have to work extra hard to achieve it I'd rather not have it.

I never had this problem but I play Hitman games on the PC (except for Absolution).

mcescher1

8th Jun 2014, 19:21

Map > seeing through walls.

Agreed

S3R6i0

8th Jun 2014, 20:32

Instinct > seeing through roofs.

mcescher1

8th Jun 2014, 21:25

the instinct system needs to be abandoned

S3R6i0

8th Jun 2014, 23:13

If you talk about the realism .. Then maps are realistic of course ... And instincts don't even exist (the type of which they showed in the game ) .. Seeing through walls ..trails .we don't see that kind of stuff in real life .. But we do see maps. Instinct was just a derived formula from assassins creed eagle vission etc .. And the worst thing about instinct was that it was connected to the disguise system .. So even wearing a disguise .. You change cover to cover .. Hiding and hiding .. Gameplay remains the same (even if you change the disguise) ..

People see a top down satellite view of their surroundings in real life? Are you serious?

The top down view map takes away the need for awareness. Rather than scanning your surroundings you press a button and you see every enemy around every corner.

AdrianShephard

9th Jun 2014, 03:06

People see a top down satellite view of their surroundings in real life? Are you serious?

I'm almost certain the technology exists...I read somewhere that predator drones use thermal imaging to see how many people are in a building/shelter.

S3R6i0

9th Jun 2014, 08:14

I'm almost certain the technology exists...I read somewhere that predator drones use thermal imaging to see how many people are in a building/shelter.

So the ICA has thermal imaging of every building 47 is in and they're coaching him along? I guess from that perspective I can't really argue. But I was under the impression that 47 was some hyper bad ass who sensed his way through every predicament with a keen assassin's finesse. Guess not. I still think Instinct is better for vertical NPC's (floors above and below). I still prefer the challenge and mystery of exploring and working problems out as I progress, not running up to the 8th floor because my target just stepped into his office. But if these are the circumstances at the very least have a 3D map like in The Dark Knight.

S3R6i0

9th Jun 2014, 08:19

Man there shouldn't be 100 % of realism .. As long as we know that there is something called map .. That exists in real life ... (Instinct is no such thing ) so how the map feature is implemented in the game doesn't matter.. And for instinct .. I said that it should stay
.. But the map should come back

If you don't like a map .. Then don't use it .. Simple .. Use instincts instead ...

Instinct is an English word, it means having an intuition. First you say it shouldn't be 100% realism, and in your next sentence you want a map, that exists in real life. Okay. Anyway, this post is 8 months old. Someone unearthed it again and I'm not gonna argue about it anymore.

mcescher1

9th Jun 2014, 15:38

there is nothing wrong with a map...

first off, the only time you see every enemy is when you play on the easier settings.

second, it is not hard to receive floor plans of any given building or area... and to just reference the floor plans as a map is not hard in fact it makes a whole lot of sense.

third, it isn't hard to believe that 47 would have a good idea of where his taget is located on the map or other points of interest.. either due to inside information, people in ica who have scoped out the area, or a tracer/tracker of some sort

also, let me get this straight.. your against having a map back again... but you are for having a 3D map???? what kind of paint did you eat today?? " a maps too much it doesn't make sense, lets have a 3D map"

wow

kewlak

9th Jun 2014, 19:24

First cause of implementation the instinct and (what brings it) "3d maps" was isolation 47 from ICA. 47 could no longer receive satellite maps from Agency, so he had to "concentrate more". In my opinion there is no reason to implement instinct again, since Agency will be helping 47.

But i think IOI will try introduce it again, because returning to old ideas (i mean playing Hitman without any instinct) may be not good in gaming branch and be reclaimed as "regress".

I advise IOI to reduce instinct-like thing to minimum in H6. I mean maybe it should be used only to trick guards? I don't want any thermal vision, like in some **ckin Predator.

mm24

9th Jun 2014, 20:22

I think Instinct is a good idea for beginner and keeping map for old players. But instinct should be use ONLY to see guards and we should be able to configure it like in HA.

S3R6i0

9th Jun 2014, 22:00

there is nothing wrong with a map...

first off, the only time you see every enemy is when you play on the easier settings.

second, it is not hard to receive floor plans of any given building or area... and to just reference the floor plans as a map is not hard in fact it makes a whole lot of sense.

third, it isn't hard to believe that 47 would have a good idea of where his taget is located on the map or other points of interest.. either due to inside information, people in ica who have scoped out the area, or a tracer/tracker of some sort

also, let me get this straight.. your against having a map back again... but you are for having a 3D map???? what kind of paint did you eat today?? " a maps too much it doesn't make sense, lets have a 3D map"

wow

Because a 3D map helps you know if someone is coming down the stairs. GET IT NOW? Or should I draw it in crayon?

kewlak

10th Jun 2014, 00:29

I think Instinct is a good idea for beginner and keeping map for old players. But instinct should be use ONLY to see guards and we should be able to configure it like in HA.

After seeing first trailer of Absolution i thought seeing guards' paths could be useful if their routes would be random, so amount of attempts before achieving a SA rating would be lower (what possibly would be better instead of learning paths). But after playing some time i realized that guards' tracks aren't random (on the contrary - scripted as hell). What for was instinct then? For casuals only - this is the answer. If H6 will have the same system - screw it.

mcescher1

10th Jun 2014, 06:32

Because a 3D map helps you know if someone is coming down the stairs. GET IT NOW? Or should I draw it in crayon?

oh yea that totally makes sense. . . :nut:

3D maps are suuuchhhh a good idea . . . :nut:

why not have all 3?? i mean who cares right?? we should see through walls... see AI's paths, have the map and see everyone and everything, and 3D maps... SO WE CAN SEE PEOPLE COMING DOWN STAIRS!!

makes complete sense, please tell us more amazing ideas Spermio or whatever your name is

S3R6i0

10th Jun 2014, 07:20

oh yea that totally makes sense. . . :nut:

3D maps are suuuchhhh a good idea . . . :nut:

why not have all 3?? i mean who cares right?? we should see through walls... see AI's paths, have the map and see everyone and everything, and 3D maps... SO WE CAN SEE PEOPLE COMING DOWN STAIRS!!

makes complete sense, please tell us more amazing ideas Spermio or whatever your name is

I'm done with this conversation.

kewlak

10th Jun 2014, 08:16

LOL :D:D

Striike

10th Jun 2014, 19:43

I see most people in this thread never played Blood Money on the hardest level. The only thing you saw on the map on the hardest difficulty was the target. And blood on the floor caused people to become suspicious. Back to the OP, instinct was an ok replacement for the map IMO, it was just used too heavily. I should not have to use instinct to convince everyone else in the same costume my authenticity.

The linear levels and such is a whole other bag of worms I'll avoid for now.

Adebisi

11th Jun 2014, 03:57

Can you just explain to me how seeing enemies through walls is any different than seeing enemies 2 floors above you in another building through the overview map? I agree that every item shouldn't be highlighted. In fact, I think that everything in the level that isn't nailed to the floor, 47 should be able to pick up. The problem I had with Blood Money and earlier titles is that you never knew when an item could be interacted with. You could explore the entire level trying to interact with everything from the stove to the radio and stumble upon maybe 1 or 2 discoveries. Not to mention, that pretty much every important item was displayed on the map with an exclamation mark. The task of looking under every last stone becomes tedious. I think both systems were flawed when it came to showing items of interest. As for the NPC's, I think Instinct is the best method. Something about going to a map killed the immersion for me.

On the explanation: I think we're arguing two sides of the same coin, both aiming for immersion. You think having a map that shows enemy movements is intrusive and cheap, whereas I and I think most others on here believe instinct is intrusive and cheap.

The map system is the best choice by far IMO, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved. I wouldn't be against having a static map that more resembles pictures of floor plans of the level, and/or surveillance pictures, combined with greater intel about who does what and where. For instance you get intel that the target doesn't often leave his chamber, but often visits the west wind of the manor to pay respect to his late wife's urn. Or that the second floor has a chamber maid that often flirts with the security staff, so you might be inclined to dress as security to swipe her master key, or something like that. That way you'd have a map that is static and doesn't have enemy movements on it, but might have areas circled in red pen that say "something was seen here on surveillance" or something to that effect for some but not all points of interest, and you wouldn't be able to see where the target is on the map, but you would have a general idea of where they roam. And maybe they don't stick to the intel every time, meaning a more varied experience.

I wouldn't be against something more realistic like that, but if they go for either the map or instinct, the map is less intrusive and wins my vote every day of the week. Sorry for the long post.

I loved the old map, and yes seeing enemy movements on floors above was not realistic, but you could always play on the more difficult settings to avoid that, which I often did. Instinct to me is a poor game mechanic that a lot of games use, but shouldn't. I think it worked with The Last Of Us, especially with the infected, but with games like Assassins Creed, it was the same with Hitman, I would go out of my way to avoid accidentally highlighting enemies through walls. If we're talking about immersion, and you're in a beautiful simulated world acting the part, the last thing you want to see is someone glowing through walls.

Before COD was a big thing, people used to use wall hacks in multiplayer games to cheat, it was dirty, cheap, and it looks exactly like Instinct or Eagle Vision from Assassins Creed. I believe it is implemented to make the game easier and more accessible to people who may have never played a Hitman game before, but if that's the case, it should at very least be optional.

Hitman games encourage skill and cunning, the stealthier and cleverer you are, the better you will do, and more importantly, it will be far more fun and rewarding. Instinct dumbs down that experience.

Also, I haven't quoted it but somewhere you said that not knowing what is interactive or not is annoying, because you will miss things - but that is a good thing. It encourages replay-ability. What is the fun of going through a mission, holding down a button and seeing everything you can do and use in one sitting? I'll grant you that the old map system had exclamation marks on the map, but I never visited every single one in the first sitting, whereas if you hold down instinct and move through, you're going to notice everything straight away, and there'll be no incentive to play it again, or interest in doing so.

Still, these features aren't my biggest gripe with the Instinct system. You can turn off all those settings like seeing through walls and the trail line, and highlighting. I turned them all off before I even started the mission. They're optional, which was good. It was annoying however that the entire system wasn't optional. In a hitman game, I shouldn't have to hold down a consumable button just to walk past in a disguise - this is Hitman! Hiding in plain sight is half the damn fun!

Obviously nobody agrees on everything, but I would argue that the features you want for Hitman apply more to an action game, and I just don't think that does justice to this franchise, which is at its best when it's a hide in plain sight stealth.

S3R6i0

11th Jun 2014, 08:05

(sighs)

I didn't really want to continue this conversation, particularly because I see that I'm in the minority. Also, because I was very specific about what I was talking about. I said remove the enemy trails (I had a major gripe with that) and detach the disguise system from Instinct. Also, I was never under the impression that 47 was being coached along via an ear piece while playing pre-Absolution Hitman. I thought the map and NPC markers were just part of the game play design. In that context, I guess it makes sense. But when I play old school Hitman I get the feeling that I'm playing a digital board game, where every enemy, janitor and nurse are following a pre-determined path in a loop and I have to figure out the puzzle.

I loved the old map, and yes seeing enemy movements on floors above was not realistic, but you could always play on the more difficult settings to avoid that, which I often did. Instinct to me is a poor game mechanic that a lot of games use, but shouldn't. I think it worked with The Last Of Us, especially with the infected, but with games like Assassins Creed, it was the same with Hitman, I would go out of my way to avoid accidentally highlighting enemies through walls. If we're talking about immersion, and you're in a beautiful simulated world acting the part, the last thing you want to see is someone glowing through walls.

Here's my problem with using the map on difficult setting. Hitman does not have a good track record when it comes to sound effects; footsteps and cracking leaves when somebody walks, hearing people talking through walls, etc. If you have nothing displaying on the map, that kinda puts you at a disadvantage, but in an unrealistic way, which I did not like. That's kinda where a system like Instinct brings balance. You can see an enemy walking through a wall because that serves as 47's ears, since there are no sound effects and not every one has an impressive surround sound system connected to their TV, Instinct acts as an aural aid that allows you to know if there's someone in the next room, without showing you what's 20 feet ahead. I would say limit Instinct to only NPC's that are talking, making noise or on the move, and only allow you to activate Instinct while you're idle. I don't know if you played that overpriced demo, Metal Gear Solid V, but they got it down right. The game has an Instinct system to detect enemies, only, you must first locate an enemy and "mark" him, and he shows up in Instinct forever. The challenge is that enemies that you haven't marked do not show up and they can spot you, so you have to move extra careful and this promotes exploration. I wouldn't mind if they removed enemy detection completely and just let us play the game by ear, I made a post earlier about realistic sound effects.

If they do bring back the map, at the very least bring back something more visually appealing. Those old Hitman maps looked awful.

gkkiller

11th Jun 2014, 11:56

My idea.

Why have an Instinct system which is horribly unrealistic? Instead, try to use Instinct to realistically portray the way a super-assassin would look at the world around him. Set dressings and the world around him grey out; they're not much use. Civilians could be outlined in slightly darker grey, but they don't need any special attention. The target himself would obviously be outlined, along with enemies. No, not all enemies - just ones who are visibly armed or likely to raise the alarm. You could have 47 believing that someone is a civilian - until they whip out a concealed pistol. No paths of fire - that's horrible. The idea of 'footstep sounds' being heard is a good one.

The Instinct 'meter' needs to go though, as does linking it to disguises. You can't use up your intuition in real life!

S3R6i0

12th Jun 2014, 07:13

My idea.

Why have an Instinct system which is horribly unrealistic? Instead, try to use Instinct to realistically portray the way a super-assassin would look at the world around him. Set dressings and the world around him grey out; they're not much use. Civilians could be outlined in slightly darker grey, but they don't need any special attention. The target himself would obviously be outlined, along with enemies. No, not all enemies - just ones who are visibly armed or likely to raise the alarm. You could have 47 believing that someone is a civilian - until they whip out a concealed pistol. No paths of fire - that's horrible. The idea of 'footstep sounds' being heard is a good one.

The Instinct 'meter' needs to go though, as does linking it to disguises. You can't use up your intuition in real life!

Whether it's Instinct or the map I don't like the idea of enemies and civilians marked with different colors. I thought the whole point about Hitman is exploration, an open world sandbox and all that. Replayability will be promoted more if you have to spend time becoming familiar with a level. There's not much challenge if you know there's a guard around the corner.

mcescher1

13th Jun 2014, 02:02

thats exactly why instinct needs to go and the map needs to come back

it also allows for more strategics - planning your path to the target - evading threats and utilizing helpful points on the map

kewlak

13th Jun 2014, 10:16

Yes. Nevermind about instinct. If 47 works for ICA, map's presence is just obvious.

S3R6i0

14th Jun 2014, 01:52

thats exactly why instinct needs to go and the map needs to come back

it also allows for more strategics - planning your path to the target - evading threats and utilizing helpful points on the map

Most of you play on difficult so what does it matter?

S3R6i0

14th Jun 2014, 01:58

Yes. Nevermind about instinct. If 47 works for ICA, map's presence is just obvious.

I never really thought about it that way. In Absolution 47 was solo, he quit the agency. In that sense the Instinct makes sense. If they bring back the map, there should be an option or difficulty mode where all the NPC's are the same color, in some instances, 47 can have a contact in a mission that gives him Intel, and make certain NPC's stand out based on the information. If the ICA has thermal imaging of the buildings he's in they shouldn't be able to discriminate, I'm not very knowledgable about all that, but at least have an option to make the NPC's more generic. They should also include advanced sound effects for those on Expert difficulty. Also, the map should memorize the amount of zoom you had on last time. There's just too much button pressing going on.

Most of you play on Hard anyway so while are you all so horny about the map?

AdrianShephard

14th Jun 2014, 03:01

If the ICA has thermal imaging of the buildings he's in they shouldn't be able to discriminate

This is a good idea that should be implemented. Could be an upgrade 47 has to purchase that lets him know who is armed/unarmed. This could be explained by having higher resolution thermal imaging that can distinguish if a firearm is being openly carried.

S3R6i0

14th Jun 2014, 04:43

This is a good idea that should be implemented. Could be an upgrade 47 has to purchase that lets him know who is armed/unarmed. This could be explained by having higher resolution thermal imaging that can distinguish if a firearm is being openly carried.

Thermal imaging works only with body heat, I'm pretty sure, clothing and accessories should be null and void. I think it should go something like this: EASY = traditional NPC display. NORMAL = NPC's are the same color, etc.

mcescher1

16th Jun 2014, 04:56

this "thermal imaging" you are talking about is instinct.

you also keep talking about seeing the NPC's on the map...

when playing on hard you don't even see the enemies... all you see is the target and the layout of the map, and exclamation points for points of interest.

you don't want the enemies to be colored yet you are ok with "thermal imaging"...

i just don't get your thought processes here...

i really feel like instinct dumb's down the game, decreases strategy and skill needed to complete levels, adds an unnecessary and almost ridiculous element.

we've discussed this topic to death in many other threads with many solutions and possible alternatives

please go over the old threads and try to understand what the best option is

Dev_Chand

16th Jun 2014, 06:38

Instinct was meant to replace some features of the classic map, like showing enemies and targets moving about, while being opened at any point of time. Of course, I don't think it was implemented particularly well, and the fact that you needed it for some disguises detracted from its multiple uses more.

I'd honestly prefer if they use rough maps on the highest difficulties, and some form of X ray vision/ Instinct on the lower difficulties, with a satellite map like the old games.

A map like this on the highest difficulty, with some points of interest marked would be good:

http://www.sni.edu.pl/proj/adam/abraham/parter.jpg

S3R6i0

22nd Jun 2014, 21:54

this "thermal imaging" you are talking about is instinct.

you also keep talking about seeing the NPC's on the map...

when playing on hard you don't even see the enemies... all you see is the target and the layout of the map, and exclamation points for points of interest.

you don't want the enemies to be colored yet you are ok with "thermal imaging"...

i just don't get your thought processes here...

i really feel like instinct dumb's down the game, decreases strategy and skill needed to complete levels, adds an unnecessary and almost ridiculous element.

we've discussed this topic to death in many other threads with many solutions and possible alternatives

please go over the old threads and try to understand what the best option is

We're talking about the thermal imaging the ICA supposedly uses to bring you guys the map. That's the argument you guys use in defense of the map and realism, that the ICA has thermal imaging of the buildings 47 is in and they feed him information. I'm sorry that you're just now realizing that Instinct and the map are pretty much the same thing.

Now you're saying that Instinct dumbs down the game and decreases strategy and skill. In another post you said the map allows you to plan and strategize better. Let's be truthful, they're both forms of cheating. I don't see how viewing a top down map of with every person detailed is any more challenging. If it's a preference that's one thing but to say that Instinct dumbs down the game when the map doesn't is ridiculous.

AdrianShephard

22nd Jun 2014, 23:35

Thermal imaging works only with body heat, I'm pretty sure, clothing and accessories should be null and void.

Go on Youtube and look up some videos on FLIR. You can see pretty clearly if someone is holding something or not. You're right, the weapon wouldn't show up but the hand positions should be enough to decide whether or not someone is armed.

this "thermal imaging" you are talking about is instinct.

No...we are talking about how IO can justify the inclusion of a map without it being some mysterious all knowing gadget that makes no sense.

S3R6i0

23rd Jun 2014, 00:03

I know. You're right. The silhouette of the gun itself should indicate whether someone is packing. However, Targets and VIP's wouldn't show up.

mcescher1

23rd Jun 2014, 04:46

so using thermal technology you can see through walls and see if someone is holding a gun... but you can't see targets or vips??? zero sense made

you people continue to amaze me

also a map is not a "magical" thing... its a ******* map! with a little red dot on it to show where your target is going to be... it also has intel (or information for any slow people out there... i know there is a few of you) that shows where points of interest are...

we didn't see the map in absolution because of the absence of the agency.

instinct was only included because it helped the dev's develop the game so they could see through walls and it made it easier for them to design the f'n game!!!!!!!!

then they decided... screw it... lets put in a button that allows people to see what we see while we are developing the game...

it was a half-baked throw in to the game!!!!!

a map on the other hand... is a map... they have been around since the beginning of time...

please come up with a rebuttal that doesn't make any sense again so i can inch closer and closer to a brain aneurism

S3R6i0

23rd Jun 2014, 05:14

so using thermal technology you can see through walls and see if someone is holding a gun... but you can't see targets or vips??? zero sense made

you people continue to amaze me

also a map is not a "magical" thing... its a ******* map! with a little red dot on it to show where your target is going to be... it also has intel (or information for any slow people out there... i know there is a few of you) that shows where points of interest are...

we didn't see the map in absolution because of the absence of the agency.

instinct was only included because it helped the dev's develop the game so they could see through walls and it made it easier for them to design the f'n game!!!!!!!!

then they decided... screw it... lets put in a button that allows people to see what we see while we are developing the game...

it was a half-baked throw in to the game!!!!!

a map on the other hand... is a map... they have been around since the beginning of time...

please come up with a rebuttal that doesn't make any sense again so i can inch closer and closer to a brain aneurism

Okay. I'll see what I can do. That'll make my day.

Anyway, a map is actually just a 2 dimensional representation of an area. Where you got live data of moving people is anyone's guess.

I never made any claims about thermal imaging, nor do I care about Hitman's old map. You have to talk to your map supporters about that one. Also, you say that the map wasn't in Absolution because the agency was absent, so why don't you explain to everyone the correlation between the agency and the map, Mr. Einstein.

AdrianShephard

23rd Jun 2014, 15:23

so using thermal technology you can see through walls and see if someone is holding a gun... but you can't see targets or vips??? zero sense made

you people continue to amaze me

also a map is not a "magical" thing... its a ******* map!

Seriously, I get it. You are against instinct 100%...so am I. But I still don't think you understand that S3R6i0 and I are not debating on the inclusion of a map or not; we are simply discussing how to justify the use of a map realistically. There is no need to be antagonistic let alone for you to respond to us.

To sum up what I thought would be great in Hitman 6: IO should give us a live map again that doesn't distinguish between civilians an unarmed enemies (though unarmed enemies aren't exactly a common occurrence). The map tells you who is armed (therefore displaying enemies). As for the targets on the map as not showing up on enemies...I think that's a good idea since targets usually aren't armed until they get suspicious. Maybe IO can do the Absolution thing again where you had to "locate" your target first; then the target is on your map full time.

Yes, the map isn't magical. But a live map displaying the directions people are pointing even in the basement of a bunker is a little magical. That's the whole point of our discussion.

mcescher1

23rd Jun 2014, 18:37

i've answered this question before.

the agency scopes out the location and supplies 47 with a detailed map, including points of interest, security patterns and setup, as well as target locations and/or target's patterns.

the agency could also have hacking capabilities allowing them to watch cameras and supply 47 with info - this would also explain the ability to see moving enemies on the map

also i have said this numerous times... when you get to the higher difficulty you don't see anything on the map except the layout, poi's, and the target... thats it...

you don't see civilians you don't see guards... target and layout...

seeing the guards (or unlocking them as you see them) is also not a problem for me... it doens't have to be completely realistic and it allows you to think up your strategy and provides for a more skillful game and less dumb luck.

S3R6i0

24th Jun 2014, 06:58

i've answered this question before.

the agency scopes out the location and supplies 47 with a detailed map, including points of interest, security patterns and setup, as well as target locations and/or target's patterns.

the agency could also have hacking capabilities allowing them to watch cameras and supply 47 with info - this would also explain the ability to see moving enemies on the map

also i have said this numerous times... when you get to the higher difficulty you don't see anything on the map except the layout, poi's, and the target... thats it...

you don't see civilians you don't see guards... target and layout...

seeing the guards (or unlocking them as you see them) is also not a problem for me... it doens't have to be completely realistic and it allows you to think up your strategy and provides for a more skillful game and less dumb luck.

First of all, you're assuming a lot. Number 1, not every location will have cameras and even the ones that do do not show what every one is doing at every moment, there are numerous blind spots, not to mention that rare occasion when someone has to take a $h!t. Assuming the agency has other agents infiltrating these locations, that completely defeats the purpose of sending in 47. Also, guards, especially higher level, routinely change up their patrols to throw the enemy off.

Somebody made a claim that thermal imaging can see through walls. This is just false. Thermal imaging can detect heat but only out in the open, not through walls.

Long story short, the idea that 47 has a live map of every floor in every building in the area with detailed feedback of moving people is absurd. If you prefer the map while playing Hitman that's one thing. But everything else is just nonsense. In real life, a guy like 47 would have to infiltrate thee areas on his wits, without a live map, that's why he's the world's greatest assassin.

Now you're gonna bring up how the game shouldn't be 100% realistic and all this other nonsense. Let me stop you. Please, think about what you're gonna say next before responding.

AdrianShephard

24th Jun 2014, 18:47

Somebody made a claim that thermal imaging can see through walls. This is just false. Thermal imaging can detect heat but only out in the open, not through walls.

Do the research. Even consumer grade thermal imaging devices can see hot spots of a human body through walls. You really think the company (FLIR Systems) doesn't already have the technological capability to develop cameras that see through walls? They have a huge contract with the US Military which would obviously benefit greatly from this.

It doesn't even have to be IR radiation. It can be anything that can penetrate a barrier including acoustic devices (i.e. sonar, etc).

Itsrob

24th Jun 2014, 20:41

I think instinct was more suited for the linear levels of Absolution rather than the more traditional open levels. It made me feel focused on what was around the corner rather than what was going on in the level as a whole.

Also, it sort of makes sense that 47 would have the area that he's infiltrating mapped out. The live AI on the map isn't as realistic obviously, but I view it more as a game tool.

S3R6i0

25th Jun 2014, 06:48

Do the research. Even consumer grade thermal imaging devices can see hot spots of a human body through walls. You really think the company (FLIR Systems) doesn't already have the technological capability to develop cameras that see through walls? They have a huge contract with the US Military which would obviously benefit greatly from this.

It doesn't even have to be IR radiation. It can be anything that can penetrate a barrier including acoustic devices (i.e. sonar, etc).

I did. What I gathered is that only radiation from heat that is passing through a wall is visible. So, it would have to be something very hot up against a wall thin enough for the radiation to show through the other side. Seeing actual people walking through a building is just out of the question. I saw one of those FLIR videos on YouTube. There's a guy who completely vanishes once he runs behind a tree. And you forget some buildings have multiple walls, so what you're suggesting to explain the live map is not viable at all. Add to that distinguishing armed personnel from unarmed. Just not possible.

Here's a video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cihfP6m9kWg

S3R6i0

25th Jun 2014, 07:00

I think instinct was more suited for the linear levels of Absolution rather than the more traditional open levels. It made me feel focused on what was around the corner rather than what was going on in the level as a whole.

Also, it sort of makes sense that 47 would have the area that he's infiltrating mapped out. The live AI on the map isn't as realistic obviously, but I view it more as a game tool.

There were a few sandbox levels in Absolution. The King of Chinatown and Chinese New Year (where 47 had to kill 3 guys that were looking for him), and Shaving Lenny. All 3 missions allowed you to blend in with the ambience and plan your attack. I actually preferred not knowing what was around the corner. With the map, you know where someone is several stairs above you in another building. You wanna talk about dumbed down.

Itsrob

25th Jun 2014, 15:07

There were a few sandbox levels in Absolution. The King of Chinatown and Chinese New Year (where 47 had to kill 3 guys that were looking for him), and Shaving Lenny. All 3 missions allowed you to blend in with the ambience and plan your attack. I actually preferred not knowing what was around the corner. With the map, you know where someone is several stairs above you in another building. You wanna talk about dumbed down.

Well you can't view the map and go through the level at the same time, so in my view it's even more "dumbed down" when you can see through walls and spot enemies in real time, not to mention being able to see their walking routes and the exact spot that they will stop even before they get there (trails of fire). At least with the map there's a little bit of planning involved before you actually infiltrate an area.

And to be fair, I always played the higher difficulties where it didn't even show you the NPCs on the map. All it did was show layouts of the building. I think that's a good standard, with the moving AI only on "easy" difficulties.

AdrianShephard

25th Jun 2014, 18:46

I did. What I gathered is that only radiation from heat that is passing through a wall is visible. So, it would have to be something very hot up against a wall thin enough for the radiation to show through the other side. Seeing actual people walking through a building is just out of the question. I saw one of those FLIR videos on YouTube. There's a guy who completely vanishes once he runs behind a tree. And you forget some buildings have multiple walls, so what you're suggesting to explain the live map is not viable at all. Add to that distinguishing armed personnel from unarmed. Just not possible.

Assuming that the map data is being provided by a satellite (I don't think the ICA has a heli flying around), you don't have to worry about as many walls in the way (compared to if 47 just had some thermal goggles). Again, I'll reiterate that consumer grade thermal imaging products are not the latest and best way to judge how far that technology is. If it's being sold to consumers, it's not relevant for the military anymore. Also, there is no defined limit (i.e. physics doesn't tell you) as to "how many walls you can see through"; all that matters is how sensitive your instrument is to temperature gradients.

Again, if you don't like the IR way, you can think about sonar.

Anyway, this topic is getting stale. I don't care anymore how IOI explains the map. As long as it's back, I'll be a happy costumer.

mcescher1

26th Jun 2014, 06:00

Well you can't view the map and go through the level at the same time, so in my view it's even more "dumbed down" when you can see through walls and spot enemies in real time, not to mention being able to see their walking routes and the exact spot that they will stop even before they get there (trails of fire). At least with the map there's a little bit of planning involved before you actually infiltrate an area.

And to be fair, I always played the higher difficulties where it didn't even show you the NPCs on the map. All it did was show layouts of the building. I think that's a good standard, with the moving AI only on "easy" difficulties.

i agree with itsrob... again

also... maps are available of most buildings at your local state and regulations buildings - for a small fee - under 10 dollars you can receive layout plans of most buildings - this is real life people - no need for thermal satellite or whatever to get a layout of a building

AdrianShephard

26th Jun 2014, 18:30

Well you can't view the map and go through the level at the same time, so in my view it's even more "dumbed down" when you can see through walls and spot enemies in real time, not to mention being able to see their walking routes and the exact spot that they will stop even before they get there (trails of fire). At least with the map there's a little bit of planning involved before you actually infiltrate an area.

Absolutely. This is exactly what I've been saying in the earlier posts in this thread.

S3R6i0

1st Jul 2014, 12:58

This is just my intuition but I have a feeling IO is gonna continue a modified version of Instinct for Hitman 6. I'm usually right about these things. We'll see when the game comes out.:cool:

AdrianShephard

1st Jul 2014, 16:45

This is just my intuition but I have a feeling IO is gonna continue a modified version of Instinct for Hitman 6. I'm usually right about these things. We'll see when the game comes out.:cool:

Then I'll buy the game when it's $30 2 months after its release (like Thief).

radioteque

1st Jul 2014, 20:06

There were a few sandbox levels in Absolution. The King of Chinatown and Chinese New Year (where 47 had to kill 3 guys that were looking for him), and Shaving Lenny. All 3 missions allowed you to blend in with the ambience and plan your attack. I actually preferred not knowing what was around the corner. With the map, you know where someone is several stairs above you in another building. You wanna talk about dumbed down.

The map only showed the targets in the earlier hitman games (with the difficulty turned up)

kewlak

1st Jul 2014, 21:17

This is just my intuition but I have a feeling IO is gonna continue a modified version of Instinct for Hitman 6. I'm usually right about these things. We'll see when the game comes out.:cool:

Sure thing. It wouldn't be mainstream if they would abandon it completely.

Aybroe

1st Jul 2014, 21:35

This is just my intuition but I have a feeling IO is gonna continue a modified version of Instinct for Hitman 6. I'm usually right about these things. We'll see when the game comes out.:cool:

You don't have to be an oracle to see this coming. Instinct will be found in the following title in some form.

In my opinion the idea behind instinct was brilliant; something to replace the map (although I prefer the map) and give newer players a lending hand by telling where the important stuff is and where the guards are going. However they made in my eyes a big mistake when they combined the feature with the hiding/disguise system. That way using Instinct was no longer optional; it was required, which I didn't like. I'd separate it from the disguises and make it only a visual aid for the beginners.

Itsrob

1st Jul 2014, 22:58

You don't have to be an oracle to see this coming. Instinct will be found in the following title in some form.

In my opinion the idea behind instinct was brilliant; something to replace the map (although I prefer the map) and give newer players a lending hand by telling where the important stuff is and where the guards are going. However they made in my eyes a big mistake when they combined the feature with the hiding/disguise system. That way using Instinct was no longer optional; it was required, which I didn't like. I'd separate it from the disguises and make it only a visual aid for the beginners.

I agree. Although i'm generally against instinct in general, I'm completely against it being a part of the disguise system. I absolutely hated that.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ

2nd Jul 2014, 10:22

You're right though, having everything visible on the map from the get-go does seem a little cheap. Maybe a system can be incorporated where once you find something, it gets marked down (sort of like how silent hill's maps update)

Erm, this was in all the Hitman games I played since 1998. :whistle:

Haterz gotta hate.

radioteque

2nd Jul 2014, 21:37

Erm, this was in all the Hitman games I played since 1998. :whistle:

Haterz gotta hate.

I actually don't even know why I brought that up, the harder difficulties only have targets marked down on the map

S3R6i0

5th Jul 2014, 12:06

I actually don't even know why I brought that up, the harder difficulties only have targets marked down on the map

The same can be said about Instinct. In the harder difficulties in Absolution NPC's aren't highlighted during Instinct, only the target(s), in red. I wouldn't mind having a map just for reference purposes, but for enemies and such, a sonar-like radar of any kind takes away from the investigation aspect. Also, the argument that Instinct can be used while on the move is kind of irrelevant, in Absolution the entire HUD appears during Instinct and there's a bluish hue to the screen and cancels out the beauty of the level, at least, in my case, it detracted from abusing Instinct in that way. Plus, I've already mentioned, Instinct can be limited to 47 while being idle, and automatically turning off when moving.

As a stealth junkie, I made it a point to not abuse Instinct in Absolution. As for the map radar, stealth games are about working through problems while moving from point A to point B. Knowing that there are 2 or 3 enemies around the next 3 corners kind of defeats the purpose. I really enjoyed pre-Absolution Hitman, but in all fairness, those games had lots of room for improvement and were not the height of stealth gameplay.

WouterVlaminck

1st Sep 2014, 14:30

I made an account especially to state that I too feel very strongly that the Bloodmoney map should return. I am extremely afraid that the developers are going to use a minimap/glowing characters/see through walls mechanics while convincing themselves this will make the game more "realistic", not understanding that by doing this they are turning the greatest social puzzlegame I have ever played into some generic Splinter Cell game.

Minimaps have no business in a Hitman game, no matter how it is implemented. It ruins the entire mechanic. To any developer reading, I will not be buying your next game if it doesn't implement a Bloodmoney-style map. Of that you can be assured.

AncientMyth

2nd Sep 2014, 04:27

I think a modest mix of both would be ideal.

Instinct: Used to see important visual cues, such as enemies or points of interest within a certain three-dimensional radius.

Instinct: Not required to pass enemies. Not required to blend in. Not a subsitute for traditional stealth mechanics. Does not nullify true instinct, that being the player's intuition. Does not show where enemies will walk. Potentially only useful to spot targets, not guards or other NPCs.

Map: Shows the level layout, possibly with names for areas. Marks the entrance and exit to the level and shows 47's current location.

Map: Does not display any NPC locations or other points of interest, such as circuit breakers, cameras, etc.

Personally, all I want is a rudimentary map as described above. I would be happy with just that and no instinct at all. I think the fun of the game derives from taking risks and solving puzzles. Giving more power to these tools takes away from the need and value of these elements.

FootFetish4Life

4th Oct 2014, 03:22

Has anyone played Assassin's Creed 4? I only ask because this is in relation to Instinct. The stealth play is a lot of fun. The Instinct works as a tagger, forcing you to always be on your guard. The map (the main map) is only there for reference, no NPC's are displayed. There's a mimi map in-game but it's not as good as the Instinct. There are so many enemies walking around during the important parts and you have to keep scanning your surroundings. The Instinct never feels overpowering, you constantly feel on your toes, and the action is just a lot quicker and smoother because you're not constantly flipping screens to go to a map.

Anyone who has played AC4 yet, if you have an opinion about the Instinct in the game with respect to Hitman and the map, I'd like to know.

IamRahx

4th Oct 2014, 10:19

Everyone has their points.
I think it wouldn't be bad if instincts was left in, but heavily modified. Here's my take:
-Path trails: Deffinately has to go. Everyone agrees
-Xray vision: I think also has to go. It should be something like in the last of us. Where you can see little sound waves where sound is being made. In other words heightend senses. Also interactive items can glow. But nothing too bright in my opinion. That bright red and yellow colour scheme broke it for me, so I never used it.
-About seeing people through walls. First, in all games I thought the map was something that showed the power of the Agency. Where scouts were sent to gather intel and setup the points of interest on the map. The map never showed all interactive items in the world, only places where interesting items can be found. Like a closet or storeroom where rat poison is kept (or placed by the scout). A kitchen where the target's food is made. A chandelier... etc. etc. Mostly accident proned locations.
Real time people locations.... I always thought the map was like a digital PDA 47 had. The agency has powerful satelites that can read heat signatures or something or the other. Especially since its just a game, it gave players on a lower level a fighting chance. And sure, the Xray vision did arguably the same thing. There aren't any real negative sides to it. Its more a matter of taste. I think it should go and the map used to spot people locations, or the ability like in TLOU. Seeing people through walls because your an amazing Hitman doesn't sit right with me (My personal taste)
-Blending in a.k.a covering face: Need I even mention that this needs to go.
It should be replaced with a better blending system, like 47 will talk his was out, like in the Absolution trailer (I never left...). Something a bit more interactive than covering his face. But giving us a selection screen to choose what to say/do is also a bit too far in my opinion. It shouldn't be an rpg, because it will break the experience if you get bombarded with those scenarios where you constantly have to choose what to say. Use the KISS method.
-Point shooting: On the fence. While I never used it, outside of the obligatory bosses. 47 is the perfect shooter. His trademark isn't just a fiber wire (that's just a symbol of how perfect and silently he executes hits), his trademark are the ballers. Because... He's a hitman, he usually does shoot his way through things using stealth. We are the ones that kinda turned him into the signature fiberwire silent assassin. He started out with the Ballers.

TheLootsieLord

26th Oct 2014, 23:15

I don't care if it's realistic or not, i simply don't like the idea of "instinct".
This may seem petty, but i hate it because EVERY GAME HAS IT these days; every stealth game has you seeing through walls and it eliminates challenge, not to mention personality from games.

I like the satellite map, because hitman to me is a "2/3 stop, think and plan, and 1/3 act" kind of game