I worry if they split the 4 (or 17) it will result in even worse service for northeast. It makes me nervous because they already give half frequency for almost every route that crosses the river other than the 10 and 11, the latter of which has pretty crappy frequency outside of rush hour.

I wouldn't be too worried about that. The 4 is generally every 15 minutes south of downtown, and every 30 minutes north of downtown. If it is a seprerate route, they could bump up the new route 15 to, say, every 20 minutes without having to make the 4 every 10 minutes. Baring any serious budget cuts, I doubt they would cut a core route to below every 30 minutes.

The northern legs of the 6 and 17 seems a bit short to be stand alone routes.

I could maybe see the northern leg of the 6 being split to a separate route, but it would have to go all the way to Uptown instead of just to Downtown. Anecdotally, there seem to be a fair number of trips between those two points.

^^ Yes. Though the boarding/alighting data doesn't show it (no origin-destination), the raw numbers of people boarding the 6 on the other side of the river and steep drop off after Uptown (36th is another drop) support that. 7 of the top 10 stations (using alighting data from weekday 6NB) are on the 6U leg.

trigonalmayhem wrote:I worry if they split the 4 (or 17) it will result in even worse service for northeast. It makes me nervous because they already give half frequency for almost every route that crosses the river other than the 10 and 11, the latter of which has pretty crappy frequency outside of rush hour.

This has been my concern as well. Right now, service east of the river just drops off. It also further disconnects NE from the rest of the city because presumably any trip south of downtown will now require a transfer. I've often take the 6 or 4 to Uptown/Lyn-Lake from NE. If I had to transfer to get there, I'd just drive.

I've worried about that as well. Seems like a better bus system would run routes starting 3-5 miles out from the core straight through downtown to the equivalent point on the other side. Bolster frequencies in that core with legs that extend to the far endpoints (with lower ridership).

Of course, it's probable that only a small portion of 4 riders go from NE to LynLake (or equivalent), with vast majority getting off downtown for a transfer to another route or downtown as final destination. I dunno, that seems to really limit the utility of our bus network if most transfers must be made downtown. Thinking Houston's re-work that changed a similar structure for the better.

It's (probably) safe to assume that the Route 15 would begin somewhere in the vicinity of MCTC/Dunwoody (perhaps laying over at Dunwoody).
That does not specifically make service worse to NE. It requires the very small number of people going all the way from Lyndale/LynLake/etc to NE have to transfer buses. The tradeoff is that both the shortened Route 4 and the new Route 15 will be much more reliable.

Transfers should not be feared, especially when the tradeoff is more reliable service. If it was more frequent, that would be even better.

What would be really great though is if the "new" 4 ended and turned around at Main Street NE, instead of terminating on the downtown side. At least until the streetcar is running and every 6 is a 6U. The combined frequency of the streetcar and every 6 crossing the river would be enough that the 4 would be redundant. NB 4's could turn on EB Washington and layover at Gateway ramp or something, running in service on Washington.

I'm sure the actual numbers are small, but every time I've ridden, there have been several people I get off with who travel from NE/SE to south of downtown (sometimes just to Franklin, other times all the way down to Uptown Transit Center or Lyn-Lake). Surely I can't be getting on the only bus that has a half dozen of us every time.

The splitting of these lines is mostly a boon for south Minneapolis. Anecdotally, delays are pretty average in NE, and I say that as someone who lives pretty close to downtown. For timing's sake, I typically opt for the 6 to get to work in the morning and that route has way more variability, despite it starting 1.5 miles down the road. The 15 will work, no doubt, but I see it dropping off Metro Transit's radar pretty quickly.

I'll disagree on transfers - they absolutely should be avoided if possible. They add time and hassle to a trip, not to mention potential anxiety that comes from the "OMG, did I miss my transfer that only comes every 20/30 minutes?" If you want to get more people using public transit that otherwise have choices, you don't tell them they have to wait in the cold for a bus, ride that bus downtown, then get off and wait in the cold some more, get on another bus, and then walk to their destination. I know that when Google Maps tells me that, I just grab my car keys.

My idea for the 4/15 would be for all 4's to cross the river but terminate relatively quickly at 8th St and 10th Ave SE (or somewhere like that). Then route the 15 to continue south on 10th Ave SE (rather than 8th St and Hennepin) and interline it with the 3 into downtown. This would provide an additional transit connection across the river using the 10th Ave bridge and a faster connection to the light rail and the U at the expense of a slower connection to destinations on Hennepin. We could also have the 15 do something more interesting than follow the 3. Admittedly, this would work a lot better if the Green Line went to say, Uptown... Thoughts?

Looking through the many, many appendices and attachments of the Final SIP (which was approved by the Met Council, yay), this is probably the most useful listing of the improvements, projected ridership, and cost/subsidy required:

It's actually quite common for transit service to stop running at ~1am outside of NYC, Chicago, etc. In fact, just having our Blue & Green lines running 24 hrs/day already puts us in a pretty elite class. For my money, I'd rather see more frequent service in the evenings (8pm-midnight) than worry about overnight service. Simply chasing too few riders at that time of night. If you're carless and need to get around between 1am-5am, transit is probably not the best option.

I've never understood why we can't at least have some service on all major routes through at least bar close. Okay, yeah, the answer is money. But given that we like to promote people not drinking and driving, having the option of the bus would be great. I remember going out with friends last summer and the only option I had to get home was to leave at 11:45, unless I felt like taking a bus, a train, and walking 1.5 miles.

That's less of an issue now that we have Uber/Lyft. But finding a cab after midnight used to be a nightmare.

MNdible wrote:If you've ever been witness to the great bus rodeo that convenes hourly on Nicollet Mall as part of the Night Owl service, you'd know that it's not just a handful of people who need this service.

You're right, it's not just a handful of people who need this service, which is part of why there is a societal reason for governments to subsidize this service (the other reason is that people with second and third shift jobs tend to be in lower income classes and more in need of affordable transportation like public transit). However, it is a miniscule portion of total ridership, so there is a limited business case for transit agencies to subsidize it.

Just noticed the new route 33 to be deployed in 2018-2020. I would have killed for this route in college - I lived right near the dog leg where Elm & Kasota meet and the 3K bus came about four times a month. Connecting to Westgate Station would also be the sneakiest way to get to Dinkytown from the Green Line, which is currently kind of a pain. All the cool kids would use it.

Speaking of "just noticed," just noticed the Route 47 proposal for Southwest Mpls in the 2018-2020 timeframe. First, it's a shame it has to jog north to 46th Street since there's no FBRT station at Diamond Lake Road. Second, I'd like to see it extended further east of 35W, ideally along 54th Street (with a jog on Nokomis Pkwy or Edgewater/Woodlawn) terminating at the VA Medical Center Station.

This whole "southern tier" is underserved south of 46th St. Granted, it's much lower density. But the Bossen Terrace / Morris Park area has some RCAP. The 22 connects this area east of 28th Ave to the Blue Line, as do a handful of 515E frequencies. But extensing the proposed Rt 47 east of 35W via 54th has a few benefits:
- Connect Hale/Page/Diamond Lake/ NENA west of 28th to Blue Line LRT.
- Connect these areas plus RCAPs near 34th Ave to Southdale job core (more than the current 515, which is not much).
- Provide transit connectivity to Nokomis-Hiawatha Regional Park.
- Allow for rationalization of the 22 and 515: Eliminate the 22G branch (a handful of frequencies) that stretch west towards Cedar south of Nokomis. Eliminate the 515E branch to VA Medical Center Station.

I guess I stopped flipping through the document after the low 100s since most ### routes are suburban.
What exactly is the constituency for a 505? VA-MOA are already connected by LRT. The only thing I could imagine is if the route stopped at Cargo Road, but even that seems like it wouldn't justify the new route. And it really should be MAC instituting better employee connections/transit around the airport perimeter.

mattaudio wrote:Speaking of "just noticed," just noticed the Route 47 proposal for Southwest Mpls in the 2018-2020 timeframe. First, it's a shame it has to jog north to 46th Street since there's no FBRT station at Diamond Lake Road. Second, I'd like to see it extended further east of 35W, ideally along 54th Street (with a jog on Nokomis Pkwy or Edgewater/Woodlawn) terminating at the VA Medical Center Station.

This whole "southern tier" is underserved south of 46th St.

As someone who is interested in making transit a part of my mobility, but who lives smack dab in the middle of the expanse bordered by 46th/Chicago/DLR/Nicollet, I would also like to see some improvements in this area. Even the occasional bus running down 4th to 50th before going west would be cool and useful. Alas, the low density of Field + Page and the Parkway being bus-free makes this area hard to serve. I shouldn't *really* complain, given the abundance of options on Chicago and 46th, but...

The problem with being an introvert online is that no one knows you're just hanging out and listening.