No, NOT fixed. I have not in fact raided as Disc. That is the problem. Do not attempt to belittle my healing in an attempt to pump up your own epeen. It is manifestly clear what kind of self-important person you are; you do not need to make it any clearer! My goodness, what an irritating little man.

Let me explain again in words you might understand:

Because of various problems associated with the current state of Disc, my raid leader has thus far been unwilling to allow ANY priest to heal in Disc spec. He has always requested that the priests switch to Holy and heal the raid.

There. Is that a little clearer for you? Fancy responding without trying to belittle someone else? Is your epeen sufficiently pumped now, or do you still feel a little under-endowed?

Nice rant! Sorry, but I'm not going to get into a 'wah wah' discussion with you as it would quickly sour this thread and any positive direction it tries to take. I thought you were making a false generalization based on your personal experience so corrected it to reflect that, since it is not a global opinion and is directly disproven by the experience of many disc priests including world first kills.

I was wrong in overestimating your experience, which as disc in raiding is, from your own admission, zero both in personal and observed respects. You've given evidence to the fact that you made a false generalization based on no experience whatsoever of your own, but only the expressed opinion of your RL, who also has no experience with disc priests in cata raiding. Which begs the question: why are you offering up your opinion as fact when you have no experience with it, and the person you're getting your opinion from has no experience with it? For that matter, is your RL even a priest? Until you have some actual experience with the spec that is direct (played) or indirect (observed), I suggest you restrain yourself from advising others on the matter based on what you gain from hearsay.

World first kills have been done with disc priests. Call me a troll for this, but I'm going to take that as a sign that disc might be viable for raiding when they're used along with other healers in that venue. I'll also take as a sign my own experience, which has proven it viable.

edit: I'm a mean, mean man but that's only because I had a bad muffin for breakfast this morning.

If you go to a raid, you will be asked to go holy. They don't want Disc healing tanks (they want pallies to do so), and they don't want Disc raid healing. This is a simple fact.

And *that* is why people are complaining about Disc. It is noticably inferior to Pallies at tank healing, and even more noticably inferior to Holy priests at raid healing.

Essentially, Disc is noticably outperformed by other healer classes when raiding, and we are always asked to go Holy. Hence the QQ.

However, after the buff maybe, just maybe, Disc will be on a par with Pallies for tank healing, and we might be allowed to do so... Have to wait and see on that I guess.

You're wrong on so many plans here, it's people like this that missinform people and make them join the endless qqtrain when they don't really know why or what they're doing wrong.

Infact, as i said in an earlier post i tried disc as i got tired of all the QQ'ing and disc being underpowered and god knows what people QQ'ed about, after i went disc to show people that hey... disc is just fine, it's YOU that's not doing it wrong, i got asked to be disc on several fights eventho that it's not my main specc.

How come? Cause i did about equal HPS between the two of the speccs, on some fights disc is just awesome sauce, to take one fight for an example: Nefarian, P2 and P3 is just amazing as disc, so much utility to work with as far as it goes to keep raid and tanks up, not to mention all the stress that you take off the other healers oh and hey.... yet i go from between 1.st - 2.nd place on healing, AS DISC, but yes... i might not constantly be topping the meters disc, but the lowest really is 2.nd. But then again, topping the meters or not, it's the kill that matters, it's what YOU can do to help making that happend.

But once again, can't stress it enough either, disc is NOT underpowered - You're the one that needs to adapt (now i don't mean the person that i quoted) i mean the people in overall that's QQ'ing without realizing that it's their playstyle that's wrong and not the specc.

@ContentsMayVary

I'm sorry to say this, but your Raidleader is shit... SHIT, S-H-I-T. doubt i need to make that anymore clear for you, he's misslead like half of the priest population is, in other words... he took the first ticket to jump on the failtrain to distination QQ without even knowing where it were gonna stop.

Please point him to this thread, and let him read this then he can QQ all he want like he already does, doesn't change the fact that he's still shit.

Ran H Stonecore and H Grim Batol, both full pugs, and healed them both fine without too much stress. Don't know if it was because of me being in epics instead of full 346 when I tried disc before, or the fact that I specced Train of Thought and used GH properly, but it went great. Certainly a good bit harder than Holy mana-wise, but far from impossible.

Originally Posted by Precursor

"Fall of therzane....." ....um what? if that woman fell , god help us it will be the second cataclysm

Nice rant! Sorry, but I'm not going to get into a 'wah wah' discussion with you as it would quickly sour this thread and any positive direction it tries to take. I thought you were making a false generalization based on your personal experience so corrected it to reflect that, since it is not a global opinion and is directly disproven by the experience of many disc priests including world first kills.

I was wrong in overestimating your experience, which as disc in raiding is, from your own admission, zero both in personal and observed respects. You've given evidence to the fact that you made a false generalization based on no experience whatsoever of your own, but only the expressed opinion of your RL, who also has no experience with disc priests in cata raiding. Which begs the question: why are you offering up your opinion as fact when you have no experience with it, and the person you're getting your opinion from has no experience with it? For that matter, is your RL even a priest? Until you have some actual experience with the spec that is direct (played) or indirect (observed), I suggest you restrain yourself from advising others on the matter based on what you gain from hearsay.

World first kills have been done with disc priests. Call me a troll for this, but I'm going to take that as a sign that disc might be viable for raiding when they're used along with other healers in that venue. I'll also take as a sign my own experience, which has proven it viable.

edit: I'm a mean, mean man but that's only because I had a bad muffin for breakfast this morning.

I'm afraid you still managed to fail to understand my point, but *shrugs* that isn't really surprising.

To reiterate: I'm annoyed because the raid leader (and not just this one, I do know other priests who also have to go Holy, you know ) prefers to take holy priests for raid healing and paladins for tank healing.

You talk as if this is not true - but it really is. Just because you haven't personally encountered it, doesn't make it so, you know (as you have just been telling me!).

I played as Disc all the way through Wrath, which is why I am somewhat dismayed by the current state of affairs.

I guess it's great for you, because you haven't had these issues, but you seem in denial that they can happen to other people. Well, I'm telling here and now, they can and do.

And as for your utterly inane comment: "until you have some actual experience with the spec that is direct (played) or indirect (observed), I suggest you restrain yourself from advising others on the matter based on what you gain from hearsay."

(1) As I said before, I played Disc all through Wrath and
(2) HOW DO I GET EXPERIENCE PLAYING DISC IN A RAID WHEN THE RL WANTS ME TO GO HOLY?

---------- Post added 2011-01-24 at 10:56 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Chitzu

You're wrong on so many plans here, it's people like this that missinform people and make them join the endless qqtrain when they don't really know why or what they're doing wrong.

Infact, as i said in an earlier post i tried disc as i got tired of all the QQ'ing and disc being underpowered and god knows what people QQ'ed about, after i went disc to show people that hey... disc is just fine, it's YOU that's not doing it wrong, i got asked to be disc on several fights eventho that it's not my main specc.

How come? Cause i did about equal HPS between the two of the speccs, on some fights disc is just awesome sauce, to take one fight for an example: Nefarian, P2 and P3 is just amazing as disc, so much utility to work with as far as it goes to keep raid and tanks up, not to mention all the stress that you take off the other healers oh and hey.... yet i go from between 1.st - 2.nd place on healing, AS DISC, but yes... i might not constantly be topping the meters disc, but the lowest really is 2.nd. But then again, topping the meters or not, it's the kill that matters, it's what YOU can do to help making that happend.

But once again, can't stress it enough either, disc is NOT underpowered - You're the one that needs to adapt (now i don't mean the person that i quoted) i mean the people in overall that's QQ'ing without realizing that it's their playstyle that's wrong and not the specc.

@ContentsMayVary

I'm sorry to say this, but your Raidleader is shit... SHIT, S-H-I-T. doubt i need to make that anymore clear for you, he's misslead like half of the priest population is, in other words... he took the first ticket to jump on the failtrain to distination QQ without even knowing where it were gonna stop.

Please point him to this thread, and let him read this then he can QQ all he want like he already does, doesn't change the fact that he's still shit.

So you agree, then, that it is very annoying to be told to go holy and raid heal, when I really want to play Disc?
You seem quite annoyed yourself about the raid leader.

Good.

Now you must therefore understand why I'm complaining, yes?

I have no problems at all in heroics. Disc is absolutely fine for them. The problem is with not being allowed to tank heal, because of a wrongly percieved notion that paladins are better tank healers than Disc priests.

I DON'T NEED TO ADJUST MY PLAY-STYLE. I ALREADY KNOW WHAT TO DO! I just need to be *allowed* to do so.

But I'm not going to shout at the raid leader. It's kindof pointless. I suspect I'll run with a different raid group, at the end of the day - such is life.

What's really annoying is, ok I complained on here about it, but was then effectively told to L2P - when what I'm annoyed about is not being ALLOWED to play! Grrrrr. Stupid elitists.

Ran H Stonecore and H Grim Batol, both full pugs, and healed them both fine without too much stress. Don't know if it was because of me being in epics instead of full 346 when I tried disc before, or the fact that I specced Train of Thought and used GH properly, but it went great. Certainly a good bit harder than Holy mana-wise, but far from impossible.

Woot! Do I smell a convert?

And yes, higher item lvl (aka more int) and proper use of ToT are pretty much essential to successful disc healing.

---------- Post added 2011-01-24 at 06:07 PM ----------

Yo ContentsMayVary:

There have been many, many instances where my guild has wanted me to go Holy for whatever reason ("Lightwell would have saved us," "Guardian Spirit would have saved us," etc., etc. Pick a reason and I can guarantee someone has used it to convince me to go Holy.) but I know that Disc is better for our raid comp and for the content we are working on, so I have stood my ground. You are the one who knows best what your spec can bring to the raid, and it is your job to communicate that to the raid leader if you feel so strongly about it.

If your RL insists that you go Holy, but you want to play disc, you have two choices: 1) stand your ground and refuse to go Holy while explaining the benefits of Disc that have been repeated over and over in this thread, or 2) find another guild. I don't know what else you want us to tell you.

If your RL insists that you go Holy, but you want to play disc, you have two choices: 1) stand your ground and refuse to go Holy while explaining the benefits of Disc that have been repeated over and over in this thread, or 2) find another guild. I don't know what else you want us to tell you.

The whole thing is just going overboard, yes, Holy does more raid healing for the most part and yes you'll always want to have one in the raid, but most raid setups got 2 Priests, why? cause they're so strong right now.

Holy:

Got a shitload of AOE healing, none can argue about that, on fights like Chimeron i've topped with like 25k HPS sometimes and that's without sniping heals or healing what i wont need to (i.e when you only need to keep people up so they don't die about the multi target ability), is Holy the best specc to go here? Yes it is, without any doubts.

But there's so many fights where disc is so damn viable on, infact most of them atleast on hardmode you'll want to have a disc priest.
But what about normal? Lets take Nefarian as an example again:

When he does the electrocute, what i usually did here was that i healed the add tank + Nefarian tank whenever an electrocute didn't hit (which he does every 10% of his HP), during that i just heal as normally, i throw bubbles on the tanks, maybe on 1 group that risk to take extra damage, which would be the melee by Onyxia so that they wont die from the tailswipe if they do get hit by it.

Right before P2 is about to hit, we push him so he does another one right before he goes up in the air, this is when i pop Power infusion on myself and just go nuts with shields right before it hits, that way it's so much less to heal before the lava comes and what do i lose on it? about 20% mana maybe a little more, nothing that you wont recover quick from.

Now, if you would've had a Holy priest instead there, guess what. The healing would be much heavier and you would risk people dying unless you stack up damn quick.

P2 on the pillars, when another is about to hit, you got Barrier, reduces the damage taken by a significant amount, not to mention that you'll have it glyphed for the increased healing while it's up, a good time to pop Hymm as well and top people in matter of seconds.

P3 you got your shields as normally, PoH on the raid for the Divine aegis and possibly shields if the fire would go to a bad possition where someone might get hit and you got another AOE incoming.

Still, i'm top or 2.nd on healing, as disc, i were the same as holy, i never end up 3.d or lower on healing done, as either specc.

So, tell your raid leader again that he should read up, if he's a raid leader he should know such things. I by no means say that he should know everything about every single specc, but things like this is what makes kills, if he can't even understand that, then again he's shit and shouldn't be a raid leader or he'll build the core/tactics wrong. end of story.

And as for your utterly inane comment: "until you have some actual experience with the spec that is direct (played) or indirect (observed), I suggest you restrain yourself from advising others on the matter based on what you gain from hearsay."

(1) As I said before, I played Disc all through Wrath and
(2) HOW DO I GET EXPERIENCE PLAYING DISC IN A RAID WHEN THE RL WANTS ME TO GO HOLY?

My 'utterly inane comment' also specified within the same post that I was referring to cataclysm raid content, so...

(1) The functional playstyle of disc healing in cata is completely different than it was in wrath, so understanding the nuances of the one does not grant understanding of them for the other.
(2) Try to educate the RL on the benefits of of discipline. If you feel comfortable from your experience as disc in non-raid cata content that you feel able to perform well in raids, ask him to let you run as disc on some fights you have on farm. If the RL is adamantly opposed to having any priests ever run disc, you may wish to reconsider whether you want to remain in the guild. While disc priests aren't required to progress through content, that level of closed-mindedness doesn't bode well for the adaptability that enables easier and faster progression.

It can definitely be argued that there are encounters that are easier to heal as holy than as disc, but the reverse can be argued for other encounters. Both are very strong and capable specs, and if you're running 25 man content (which I'm suspecting since you mentioned running multiple priest healers) your runs would generally be easier and progression faster running with at least one of each.

I'm raiding as disc, and yes holy pallies and holy priests can be higher on the healin/absorbs charts then I do, but shamans and druids are always lower then me. So let's not bring those to the raid then as well?

I'm raiding as disc, and yes holy pallies and holy priests can be higher on the healin/absorbs charts then I do, but shamans and druids are always lower then me. So let's not bring those to the raid then as well?

Yes, shamans are in a bad spot right now, just like disc, especially on fights where their Healing Rain is not viable (spread out raid, lots of movement). If you pull out significantly bigger numbers than Resto Druids or Shamans while raid-healing as Discipline and they are raid-healing too, you either A) outgear them by a ton, B) outskill them by a ton, or C) both. If we're talking Tank Healing, you should be able to put up similar or slightly higher numbers. Every healer out there is currently very good at Tank Healing, so basically it comes down to how well you can raid heal or help out on raid healing while keeping a tank up, and disc does very well in that role.

"Help! I fail at this game, my character needs to be updated so it can make up for my lack of talent, help!"

"Oh and omg right now plzplzplzplz not in a few weeks, right now! omg plzplz help!"

I'm glad I'm not you.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non-constructive posts are un-welcomed and is considered trolling. This thread has been warned.
-Apostolic

M8, there is acutall proof that this class needs buff and i bet ure playing warrior.

I find this thread being very off track of common sense. There are several ways in facing a healer class depeding on Role, assignment & Spec hence a reason people say " This, that, is better than that ".

What people must realize is that there is a huge difference in Utillity and Efficiency among the classes.

I see people ranting disc as useless, my believe is that you don't see the potency they bring and that you need to adjust yourself to the lines we're given in the current expansion. Holy being awesome is due to Holy Concentration giving more regen letting them utilize their journal more than being held back.

Disc is not weak in any point. Why? Like I mentioned above is that each healer bring something to the raid.

* Priests are the class that got the option of being a mitigative class or an active healing spec. Like I said a healers role depends on assignment, role and spec and Your Raid Composition. Adapting to each other is needed in game as much as in real life.

What one need to realize is that since cataclysm brings so many elements it's rather important to take those facts into mind. Since every fight favors one more than another would.

Let's say Halfus Wyrmbreaker compared to Chimaeron to Nefarian.

Halfus wyrmbreaker favors a Disc priest's Atonement spec alot since the Smite damage along with Atonement gives a great amount of healing at the same time while being competitive in damage. ( Note: It varies from 10man, 25man AND your raid's setup )Chimaeron favors both specs ( talking priest perspective ) since the tank damage is rather spiky a disc priest Divine Aegis and mitigative role would give great benefit. On the other hand, in feud, a holy priests healing is great for having everyone up for the incoming damage. ( Note: This is very reliant on your raid's setup and assignments )Nefarian in my personal opition favors mitigation alongside good healing. This is where an aspect of 10man vs 25man, raid setup, and healer composition. As disc I find myself mitigating crackle as much as possible. Since that's generally the AoE damage going out in phase 1 & 3 + Tailswipe. Mitigating that leaves your fellow healers with less work and they can manage their mana easier. Not only crackle but tank damage will be swiftly lighter since Breath and crackle certainly hit hard. ( Note: Role on mitigating raid damage, tank healing are one of my bases I use to the above statement )

So you spend alot of mana making other healers job easier? Isn't that unfair? - No it is not. Because your job might be heavier during a certain phase, but other healers will be able to work harder for you in another phase. You work hard for them, they work hard for you in another. It's mostly about collaborate.

To summarize this wall of text is that you must be considerate about your fellas, one is not better than another since it's a matter of situation that comes to play. Hence why I dislike rantings of disc priests being worse than holy. Or Holy being considerably more overpowered than disc. " This is FALSE in my own opinion " you must, like I've said several times in this post, count on the ability other classes have and aspect of encounter you're facing.

Whilst disc isnt't as strong as holy, and it's usually quite odd to compare it to other classes, it's not that bad. I'm Disc 99% of the times in our raids, and quite frankly, I feel (and it has been relayed to me) that me being Disc actually makes a difference. Some examples include PW: Barrier on Chimaeron, and PW: Barrier on Nefarian (during Crackle in phase 2). Also, at the Nefarian fight, whilst Holy is "better" AoE healing, the DA procs from PoHealing whilst on the pillars is working really well, I have no problems keeping people on my pillar alive. So in short: yeah, it could use some buffs (mainly PW: Shield as it feels only like a mana potion every 12 seconds) but it's not so bad that using it in a 25man raid is "lolwtf". It has it's place, and any raidleader who doesn't see that, is incompetent for that task.

I'm afraid you still managed to fail to understand my point, but *shrugs* that isn't really surprising.

To reiterate: I'm annoyed because the raid leader (and not just this one, I do know other priests who also have to go Holy, you know ) prefers to take holy priests for raid healing and paladins for tank healing.

You talk as if this is not true - but it really is. Just because you haven't personally encountered it, doesn't make it so, you know (as you have just been telling me!).

I played as Disc all the way through Wrath, which is why I am somewhat dismayed by the current state of affairs.

I guess it's great for you, because you haven't had these issues, but you seem in denial that they can happen to other people. Well, I'm telling here and now, they can and do.

And as for your utterly inane comment: "until you have some actual experience with the spec that is direct (played) or indirect (observed), I suggest you restrain yourself from advising others on the matter based on what you gain from hearsay."

(1) As I said before, I played Disc all through Wrath and
(2) HOW DO I GET EXPERIENCE PLAYING DISC IN A RAID WHEN THE RL WANTS ME TO GO HOLY?

---------- Post added 2011-01-24 at 10:56 PM ----------

So you agree, then, that it is very annoying to be told to go holy and raid heal, when I really want to play Disc?
You seem quite annoyed yourself about the raid leader.

Good.

Now you must therefore understand why I'm complaining, yes?

I have no problems at all in heroics. Disc is absolutely fine for them. The problem is with not being allowed to tank heal, because of a wrongly percieved notion that paladins are better tank healers than Disc priests.

I DON'T NEED TO ADJUST MY PLAY-STYLE. I ALREADY KNOW WHAT TO DO! I just need to be *allowed* to do so.

But I'm not going to shout at the raid leader. It's kindof pointless. I suspect I'll run with a different raid group, at the end of the day - such is life.

What's really annoying is, ok I complained on here about it, but was then effectively told to L2P - when what I'm annoyed about is not being ALLOWED to play! Grrrrr. Stupid elitists.

Basically, you think disc is broken because your RL is a retard? How does that make the spec broken? Disc absolutely rocks, and quite frankly, most of the changes coming down the pipes are for pvp reasons. And the ones that aren't are quality of life improvements to make the spec feel less clunky.

And really, he's making you go holy? Is he sitting next to you and hitting the "activate spec" button? You have two options: A) Tell him you're gonna be disc and if he doesn't like it, he can kick you. If you think he will kick you, without letting you prove yourself first B) Ninja switch to disc, then laugh at him when you are keeping up with pally healers.

On a side note, I had a tank in a heroic compliment me on how well my healing was. I thanked him, and said "and people think disc sucks." To which he responded, "well it does, it's still not as good as holy. Then I told him "It must not be that bad, because we're wotlk pulling trash." To which he said "good point." The only way to change some peoples minds is to show them.

"To reiterate: I'm annoyed because the raid leader (and not just this one, I do know other priests who also have to go Holy, you know ) prefers to take holy priests for raid healing and paladins for tank healing."

"I have no problems at all in heroics. Disc is absolutely fine for them. The problem is with not being allowed to tank heal, because of a wrongly percieved notion that paladins are better tank healers than Disc priests".

You actually quoted that, if you re-read your message above!

I honestly think that there are a fair few raid leaders at the moment that prefer to take Pallies to heal tanks rather than Disc Priests. I guess they need to be "educated"...