Having clicked the link I pretty much agree with what Piquet said. I think the Lotus performance this year is a lot more car than driver. I genuinely don't think Grosjean was going to be that good instantly or Kimi up to speed that quickly.

But that really was not the jest of what Piquet said now was it, and then again perceived performance being more car than driver holds true for all of them, its practically truism. In so many word Piquet said that Lotus drivers have sucked which has only been masked by the car.

I'd hardly call the Lotus drivers lucky. The car is quick and kind to its tyres, but both drivers lost loads of very valuable time to get used to the car in pre-season testing and more importantly, the team lost the opportunity to gather data about the tyres and how they work on the car. When you have as little time to test as the team do now, a week is an eternity. So while the Lotus team tried to figure out what had happened to their chassis or struggled with the steering, other teams were pounding round the test tracks, gathering tyre data and other drivers were learning about their cars and the tyres too. Other drivers had also done an entire season in the 2011 cars, 2012 cars are an evolution of those cars. Kimi last drove an F1 car in 2009 and Grosjean is about the same (I think).

Lotus drivers have achieved what they have on Merit. The car is fast, but you need a team behind in and you need data. It looks like Lotus are finally catching up with the rest of the teams in terms of understanding the tyres, the drivers are settling in the the cars (kimi's steering issues seem to be better) and the results will come.

But that really was not the jest of what Piquet said now was it, and then again perceived performance being more car than driver holds true for all of them, its practically truism. In so many word Piquet said that Lotus drivers have sucked which has only been masked by the car.

For all we know, they do. Not 'suck' but could be quite a bit under the total potential of the car. Though the engineers would know yes or no with all the data they have.

But the response so far has been based around who made the comment rather than what was said. Hell if I had said those same things on this board there'd have been less criticism of the comment.

Indeed, however Piquet did not play with uncertainties, he is quite firm. He did not say for all we know Räikkönen and Grosjean suck but in so many words he said they suck, period. Piquet comes through as a bitter little prick, no more no less.

I am terrible at painting and writing poems, so I don't criticize anyone doing these thing.

I'm very good at skiing, and if someone asks me, I can point out mistakes/technical imperfection. As a matter of fact, I'm paid for this.

If I remember well, Nelson didn't do to well in F1. He might be good, maybe the time/team wasn't right. But he should have enough sense to understand he is doing idiot out of him. If he had some class, he'd say 'kimi and romain are doing very good'. He could add, that you never know how good really their car is. But this, come on

For all we know, they do. Not 'suck' but could be quite a bit under the total potential of the car. Though the engineers would know yes or no with all the data they have.

I don't think Lotus car or drivers has been underperforming much. In my opinion Lotus has had most steady results when compared to rivals. Out of some goof of tactics and driver crashes, both Lotuses has been competing at top, but never been overall best one. You can easily pick GPs this season Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull and even Mercedes been just nowhere for unknown reason. Lotus being frequently top, close but no sugar. (hence, somebody should draw an excel chart, but I won't bother ). They indeed have very quick overall car, but always somebody being better than them.

We all know he has an axe to grind with Renault and their beloved son Growjohn who moved in to fill the gap, but calling Raikkonen weak is simply taking a piss.
Raikkonen has 5 podiums in his first year back which is something no other driver would have been capable of in my view. Schumi still has a paltry single podium after his return.

We all know he has an axe to grind with Renault and their beloved son Growjohn who moved in to fill the gap, but calling Raikkonen weak is simply taking a piss. Raikkonen has 5 podiums in his first year back which is something no other driver would have been capable of in my view. Schumi still has a paltry single podium after his return.

This is lacking depth, I'm afraid. IOW's, it's not that simple. Kimi may not be weak but he has not pulled off what any other driver couldn't. Give us a big break there. Schumacher isn't the one driving that Lotus and even Kimi himself alluded to this when asked about Schumacher's comeback in light of his. He said it's easier to get the results on a return when you have a good car. I just beg for some depth here where you include the car performance factor when assessing driver results.

Why all these critics? As if you know any better than Nelson Piquet Jr, who has been in the business himself. He's obviously a bit sour about Grosjean's success, but that doesn't mean his words aren't of any value.

Why all these critics? As if you know any better than Nelson Piquet Jr, who has been in the business himself. He's obviously a bit sour about Grosjean's success, but that doesn't mean his words aren't of any value.

You'd be as well to just close down this forum then if you take this whole 'so and so has been in F1 so they know more about it than you' route.

But that really was not the jest of what Piquet said now was it, and then again perceived performance being more car than driver holds true for all of them, its practically truism. In so many word Piquet said that Lotus drivers have sucked which has only been masked by the car.

Jacques Villeneuve said the same thing at Montreal. So Piquet isn't the only one who holds this view.

I like Nelsinho, he is right about pay drivers' unfair advantage (I am not sure if "F1 offspring" are more fair phenomenom though) but he went a bit overboard with this one. Romain should give a call to Nelsinho.
"Hey mate, I have this huge pile of cash to move around. Could you help me with your truck."

You'd be as well to just close down this forum then if you take this whole 'so and so has been in F1 so they know more about it than you' route.

Smile17 isn't saying that N. Piquet Jr knows more about F1. He's saying that most of us can't really claim knowing more than he does. So why all the heavy criticism?

Well, to Smile17, I'd say that opinions as this current one expressed by Nelson would be under heavy fire on this forum regardless of source, including rival team members, other F1 drivers (current or past), pundits, officials, journalists or whoever.

Don't see what is so funny about it. Everyone knows that Lotus has been a top car this year - Williams and Mercedes each won a race. You can't be taken seriously if your opinion is that both drivers have maximized the full potential of the Lotus in all of the races so far.

Andrew Benson

It was Romain Grosjean, second on the grid, who applied the pressure for the first 40 laps of the race, but somehow one always suspected that his team-mate Kimi Raikkonen would come into the frame sooner or later.

Continue reading the main story “There has been a growing impatience of the other top teams with Red Bull's constant run-ins with F1's legislators” The Finn - who, it has to be said, has had a few lacklustre races in his comeback season - has been back on form since the British Grand Prix three weeks ago, and in Hungary he was the faster Lotus driver throughout the weekend.

Raikkonen should have qualified on the front row, but he underachieved in final qualifying, admitting he simply did not get his final lap together. Not for the first time either.

That relatively poor lap in the top 10 shoot-out - slower than he had gone in second qualifying - might have been the difference been victory and second place.

Piquet jr. Doesn't know what he is speaking about and there is a reason why he isn't and will never be back in formula 1. Grosjen did better job than him in 2009 when we consider he had done no testing and came to drive the car in the latter part of the season. About Kimi lol...don't know what he means by a weak, 2011 he said Kimi is awesome, fast driver and it was fantastic to get him in nascar and now he says he isn't...what an idiot to talk like that about the f1 worldchampion and one of the best drivers still in f1.

Don't see what is so funny about it. Everyone knows that Lotus has been a top car this year - Williams and Mercedes each won a race. You can't be taken seriously if your opinion is that both drivers have maximized the full potential of the Lotus in all of the races so far.

Andrew Benson

I would say the drivers have maximized the potential on some weekends, while the team and strategies failed them. On others, the drivers have made mistakes but not anyone, even Alonso, has been fully mistake free this or any season.

So yes absolutely, it is complete rubbish to say the drivers overall have under performed compared to the competition.

Also, it is riduclous to continue to bring up the fact that they have been so fast during the races, when this inherent strength comes with the cost of weakness, getting heat into the tires fast enough during the Qualifying sessions.

Now that it seems they have found a nice compromise, it wouldn't be shocking at all that the drivers start further up the grid (read at the front row or second row) consistently and perhaps a few victories are on the cards.

The what if games can be played by everyone, but it gives us no facts.

To be fair to his comments, one may not realize how stupid his comments may be! He assumes it is the same Grosjean as in 2009 and he is just an unmerited pay driver. Next, he assumes Kimi is weak because he has had a two year break and he would not be at his full strength naturally. He has no proof for either of this. Just plain irrational opinion as anything else. If he has some solid reasons, one could discuss.

To say someone is weak just because he has had a two year break is not that convincing. We have had many drivers in the past who have won championships and races after break. Going from that standard, we cannot say Grosjean's performances have been weak then. Ill-advised opinion on both counts.

To be fair to his comments, one may not realize how stupid his comments may be! He assumes it is the same Grosjean as in 2009 and he is just an unmerited pay driver. Next, he assumes Kimi is weak because he has had a two year break and he would not be at his full strength naturally. He has no proof for either of this. Just plain irrational opinion as anything else. If he has some solid reasons, one could discuss.

To say someone is weak just because he has had a two year break is not that convincing. We have had many drivers in the past who have won championships and races after break. Going from that standard, we cannot say Grosjean's performances have been weak then. Ill-advised opinion on both counts.

He doesn't assume is the same Grosjean: ""Sure he (Grosjean) has improved a lot but there is no phenomenon. Nothing compared to Alonso."

To be fair to his comments, one may not realize how stupid his comments may be! He assumes it is the same Grosjean as in 2009 and he is just an unmerited pay driver. Next, he assumes Kimi is weak because he has had a two year break and he would not be at his full strength naturally. He has no proof for either of this. Just plain irrational opinion as anything else. If he has some solid reasons, one could discuss.

To say someone is weak just because he has had a two year break is not that convincing. We have had many drivers in the past who have won championships and races after break. Going from that standard, we cannot say Grosjean's performances have been weak then. Ill-advised opinion on both counts.

Piquet Jr really hasn't earned to right to badmouth more successful and talented F1 drivers than himself. He really needs to get over F1 and stop even thinking about it let alone be prepared to go on the record about it. F1 chewed him up and spat him out, and he might have the right to be bitter about that, but his opinions are of no value or interest to me.

He doesn't assume is the same Grosjean: ""Sure he (Grosjean) has improved a lot but there is no phenomenon. Nothing compared to Alonso."

He just blabbers that at the end of the article. It's like giving a one-page dissing of how much Massa sucks, and then at the end saying - "For sure, he is a great driver, he has achieved a lot of things, but there are many better drivers".. Whatever that means.. If Grosjean has improved a lot, why compare him based on his 2009 season? What sort of stupid logic is that? He clearly says""His luck is that he was not doing well in F1, another season of GP2, landed a sponsorship deal and returned to F1 paying, right? Then things went right for, how do you say, in his career. The timing was very good for him."

He has improved a lot since 2009, but he is no Alonso, so how does he know where the present Grosjean is? If he is no phenomenon, then he is no good and hence lucky? How does he know how much he has improved? What sort of quantification does he have on Grosjean now? He is very sure he hasn't improved to Alonso's level, how does he know that? It is just an empty statement at the end. He has used dissing statements earlier in the interview which he reasoned for terming him lucky. Stop showing these make-up "for sure he is a great driver" comments when he is dissing him all along. I have no option but think that those who show statements like this must lack comprehension. Just read that article coherently.

I would say the drivers have maximized the potential on some weekends, while the team and strategies failed them. On others, the drivers have made mistakes but not anyone, even Alonso, has been fully mistake free this or any season.

So yes absolutely, it is complete rubbish to say the drivers overall have under performed compared to the competition.

Also, it is riduclous to continue to bring up the fact that they have been so fast during the races, when this inherent strength comes with the cost of weakness, getting heat into the tires fast enough during the Qualifying sessions.

Now that it seems they have found a nice compromise, it wouldn't be shocking at all that the drivers start further up the grid (read at the front row or second row) consistently and perhaps a few victories are on the cards.

The what if games can be played by everyone, but it gives us no facts.

But this is a constant problem with Kimi. He always has trouble in getting the tyres in their operating window... In fact, the only time I can remember when he didn't was on the Michelins and even then there was a season where he had difficulty and it was said it was because the car was too easy on the tyres. I call BS! It happened at Ferrari and it is happening now again. When the car has been capable Grosjean has stuck it at the sharp end numerous times so the tyre issues cannot be that bad.

To be fair to his comments, one may not realize how stupid his comments may be! He assumes it is the same Grosjean as in 2009 and he is just an unmerited pay driver. Next, he assumes Kimi is weak because he has had a two year break and he would not be at his full strength naturally. He has no proof for either of this. Just plain irrational opinion as anything else. If he has some solid reasons, one could discuss.

To say someone is weak just because he has had a two year break is not that convincing. We have had many drivers in the past who have won championships and races after break. Going from that standard, we cannot say Grosjean's performances have been weak then. Ill-advised opinion on both counts.

Did he really say this though or did he simply say that Kimi is weak? I don't see where he gave a reason for the claimed weakness he perceives.

I must admit that for the pace that the Lotus has shown since season start, it's very disappointing that they don't have race wins to show for it. It's Kimi's reputation that is making this acceptable for some. I personally don't buy it.

yawn.......everyone enjoy picking on Kimi, a guy who doesnt bother reply to bs!!

By claiming Lotus as best car is another way to bring down kimi by his haters!!

Rbr and Mclaren both hv the best overall car (poles contender and rapid race pace), lewis only manage 2 win while vettel only manage 1~
I dont see anyone dare pick on them~~~ how come the double standard???

So far, E20 only displayed its advantage on tyres, thats why they can be very fast on 1 race and normal on another race especially when the track temp rise to 35-45 degree celcius!

So what they didnt win a race??? Button won a race and was no1 after that~~ its the consistency of always fighting for win thats count!!

Watch hungary you could see how awesome kimi was by putting fastest lap on the worn out options tyres to place himself in fight for wins!! Cant believe anyone dare to slate such figure, he's improving, and will get that win for sure to satisfy your ego!!

This has nothing to do with kimi, at the last race if Grosean would have had the pace that Kimi showed in the race, he would have won the race and if kimi would have qualified better he would have won the race. The thread is not about Other drivers or other teams but about Lotus specifically and what Piquet said.

This has nothing to do with kimi, at the last race if Grosean would have had the pace that Kimi showed in the race, he would have won the race and if kimi would have qualified better he would have won the race. The thread is not about Other drivers or other teams but about Lotus specifically and what Piquet said.

If, could, should~~~

Im sure every team have that during debrief~~ its no use moaning about the past, its about what you learn from the mistake that count!! I can see kimi improve alot in qualifying, in hungary Q3 he had setup error thats why he is slower than his Q2 lap times!! Shit happens, at least we can see he's on the right path for the remaining 9 races!!

Its a team with new management and drivers afterall~~ and both of them skipped 2 years, if anyone deserve to be underperforming, its them!! I can name more than 15 drivers that was driving in 2011 still underperforming with their car!! The grid is that tight, competition too!! Its no longer the nil passing poles dominating era!!!

You are simply giving a list of excuses why the drivers have underperformed.
Grosjean a rookie and Kimi out of the sport for two years .
The setup problem in Q is great part Kimi's fault, he himself does not put blame on the team but on himself therefore I dont undestand why his fans cannot do the same.

I guess this is such a hot topic mainly because a lot of teams/drives have won races this season yet Lotus remains winless.

You are simply giving a list of excuses why the drivers have underperformed.Grosjean a rookie and Kimi out of the sport for two years . The setup problem in Q is great part Kimi's fault, he himself does not put blame on the team but on himself therefore I dont undestand why his fans cannot do the same.

I guess this is such a hot topic mainly because a lot of teams/drives have won races this season yet Lotus remains winless.

They might snatch the titles without any win~~ who knows???]ppl always find reason to slate others, you can guarantee they wouldn't win any races at the end of the season??

Win a race doesnt mean anything if you cant fight for the wins in every race!!! Jenson, webber, maldonado are the best examples!!

He just blabbers that at the end of the article. It's like giving a one-page dissing of how much Massa sucks, and then at the end saying - "For sure, he is a great driver, he has achieved a lot of things, but there are many better drivers".. Whatever that means.. If Grosjean has improved a lot, why compare him based on his 2009 season? What sort of stupid logic is that? He clearly says""His luck is that he was not doing well in F1, another season of GP2, landed a sponsorship deal and returned to F1 paying, right? Then things went right for, how do you say, in his career. The timing was very good for him."

He doesn't say there are many better drivers. He only compares Grosjean to Alonso and a 'weak' Kimi.

Regarding the second point, the logic I don't understand is yours. How can you talk of improvement without comparing the driver to his past performances? It seems very logical to me.

He has improved a lot since 2009, but he is no Alonso, so how does he know where the present Grosjean is? If he is no phenomenon, then he is no good and hence lucky? How does he know how much he has improved? What sort of quantification does he have on Grosjean now? He is very sure he hasn't improved to Alonso's level, how does he know that? It is just an empty statement at the end. He has used dissing statements earlier in the interview which he reasoned for terming him lucky. Stop showing these make-up "for sure he is a great driver" comments when he is dissing him all along. I have no option but think that those who show statements like this must lack comprehension. Just read that article coherently.

I think I read the article right. You are the one 'seasoning' Piquet's comments (i.e. "He assumes it is the same Grosjean as in 2009").

Grosjean worked as a test driver in the same team than NPJ and then drove his car in 2009, so Piquet is surely in a position to know better than any of us about Grosjean. His opinion is based in his first hand experience with both drivers as a racing driver in F1, so it is as valuable as it gets as an opinion. For more clarifications about his comments, you can contact him directly.

- You always make tiny mistakes. It's part of the game. I don't regret a single race. You just have to accept the risk and deal with the fact that sometimes it doesn't pay off.

- We could have been more competitive and won in certain races, but it's always easy to speak in hindsight. When you make a decision, you just have to stick with it. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, and you just have to learn from your mistakes. We learned a lot during the first half of the season and hopefully we can do better in the second half.

- Nothing is about luck. If something fails, it is because we made a mistake. If some part of the car breaks it has nothing to do with luck. Somebody makes a mistake with some mechanical part and that part might not last. It's the same really when I make mistake, it's not about bad luck either.

( A guy that took all the blame and refuse to blame luck for it eventhough bad lucks rob his title in 2003 and 2005, which is why i think he will keep improving more and more throughout the season and rightly so)

For those who advocate that NPJ did well against Hamilton in 2006 GP2, dont forget that was his 2nd season in the series and Lewis' first.

In regards to the Lotus, no its not the best car. To be so, it needs to perform better in qualifying which is clearly does not.

But this is just it. When the car does perform well in qualifying then Grosjean sticks it where it belongs, only to mess it up in the race with an incident or poor pace. Kimi is the opposite, no pace in qualifying but fast in the race.

That car should have won multiple races already, that it hasn't is testament to the drivers being poor in one form or the other. I see nothing wrong with what Piquet Jr said.