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Scottish Passport

IF they vote Yes in tomorrow's referendum, at some point down the road they will have to start issuing Scottish Passports. But what might happen in the meantime?

For example, suppose you are a Scot who plans to take a first trip outside of Scotland over Xmas/New Year but have not yet applied for a passport? It isn't likely they will issue you a UK passport is it and Scottish passports will not be available that quickly. No trip?

Or how about if you are currently on a long term trip and your UK passport is going to expire in 6 months. Normally, you would renew your passport through an Embassy. That isn't going to be possible either.

Or how about if you are an expat living in another country long term? What affect might it have? Bear in mind that expats are not allowed to vote in this referendum. So an expat who would have voted NO, can't just move south of the border, maintain UK citizenship and a UK passport.

I can picture all kinds of nightmare scenarios just as a result of this one little change alone.

Oh yes, because no country in the history of the world ever, ever before became independent so of course there are absolutely no precedents whatsoever and it's all completely unknown and the sky will fall in....

Just because they vote yes doesn't mean independence will come in a matter of months.
There is a lot of negotiation to be undertaken before that happens, not only with the UK government but with the EU too.
Eventually things will be settled and a date will be agreed. Presumably from then on they will issue their own passports too, but no doubt there will be a period of time in which some Scots will still travel on a UK passport.

Mjdh, it's a conjecture question you are being asked, but it seems you have no idea of what that means. No one said the sky will fall in, the question is how will it be handled. As for precedents, go ahead and name some or one and explain how they handled the changeover.

I agree it will take a period of time hetismij2, in fact there is a set date I believe before anything will happen. It's about a year from now I think.

But at some point, it seems likely that they will no longer be able to get a UK passport and if they are absent at that time, then what? It really doesn't matter when the change occurs, the question is how will it be handled?

Look at my last question in the OP. If someone no longer lives in Scotland and does not agree with the Yes vote, would they be able to maintain UK citizenship and passport or would they be forced to get a Scottish passport?

ST, like so many things involved in this independence at this point in time nobody know what will happen with regard to passports, what the rules will be for Scots who do not wish to become Scottish nationals and so on.
Far more pressing concerns, should the vote be yes will be currency, healthcare, defence and EU membership.

None of this can be taken for granted, so neither can the Yes campaign's plans or timetable.

But there is no reason for the UK to refuse a passport to any Briton between now and March 2016, and no possibility for a shadow pre-independence Scottish administration to issue passports until then. Britain has not announced any plans for withdrawing passports, or consular protection abroad.

In practice, the likelihood has to be that British passports will be valid till they expire, and that Scots will need new, Scottish, passports on the expiry of their British documents.

"I would assume that every UK national who would by birth be a citizen of the New Scotland would have the option of retaining UK citizenship. "

I would assume no such thing. I'd certainly oppose even more mass giving away of UK citizenship - as would most other Britons.

By voting Yes, Scots are voting to screw up their compatriots' future. It's not our job to bail them out. We may well create a fast-track residency rule for some - but it has to be linked to real connections with the new UK, such as living here.

More likely is that, as with Ireland, there would be a common travel area and continuing rights to residence, benefits and the vote for those living in the UK: but independent citizenship and passports, with due thought given to transitional arrangements for people who might otherwise fall between two stools.

I find it very hard to believe worse conditions would apply to Scots than to the citizens of the Republic (and since Scotland would be staying in the Commonwealth, the right to vote in the UK if resident there would apply anyway, as it did for the Irish Free State and was later re-applied when they formally became a republic).

The Irish case is a good analogy. Even after Ireland left the Commonwealth, Irish citizens who held a British passport could apply to retain their status as British subjects. I don't know if both countries recognized dual citizenship at that time, although both do now, if I'm not mistaken. I know Ireland does, because I'm an Irish citizen by birth and also an American citizen by birth (as well as a naturalized Italian citizen).

Rod Stewart is no more Scottish than the vast majority of US Scots.
I can't see Sean Connery moving from Greece, with his royal neighbour, back to cold grey Scotland, no matter what he said in the past.j

"I find it very hard to believe worse conditions would apply to Scots than to the citizens of the Republic"

What if Scotland were told its conditions for joining the EU were the same as those mandated for all other new members? That is: join Schengen (when the other members see fit) and join the Euro (also when other members see fit). That means it can't be in the Common Travel Area.

What if England gets annoyed at being told to take our nukes away? What if Scotland insists on sterlingisation against our will and buggers up our creditworthiness? What if there's a flood of Scots looking for jobs in England, and Scotland's not in the EU? What if there's evidence of anti-English bias in Scottish public sector job selection (do you or anyone else seriously think there won't be)?

Scotland is in a far better position to be a nuisance than Ireland was after six years of civil war a century ago. And, with 500 million foreigners able to move to England and get a job without our permission, the Scots will be the ONLY Western Europeans we can keep out - at a time there may be growing political pressure to cut white English unemployment.

It's about likelihoods. Scotland in the EU on current terms (which is virtually impossible) and the Ireland 1922 analogy is fine. Scotland in EFTA (though the SNP don't want that, because they won't get EU handouts), ditto. Scotland in Schengen, or out of both the EU and EFTA - and England has to start treating it like a truly foreign country.

Unless treating it like Ireland 1922 is the price an English government decides it's prepared to pay for keeping our nukes in Faslane.

Scots have EU passports. After independence they will still have EU passports. Simple, really.
It is of course possible that the EU might be invaded by giant aliens with 9 heads, in which case other arrangements would be made.

I would assume that every UK national who would by birth be a citizen of the New Scotland would have the option of retaining UK citizenship.>>

What's birth got to do with it? you can't gain a british passport any more simply by being born here, so why should that apply to citizens of the putative Scottish state? I quote from the UK gov website:

<<British citizenship - born on or after 1 January 1983
Being born in the UK doesn’t automatically give you British citizenship.

If you were born on or after 1 January 1983, you will be a British citizen if your mother or father was either:

a British citizen when you were born
‘settled’ in the UK when you were born
In most cases you will be a British citizen if your mother or father was born or naturalised in the UK.>>

if you substitute "Scottish" for "british" etc., you begin to see the problems. There may well be many people in Scotland tomorrow who are not eligible for citizenship of the independent Scotland for which they are voting, and conversely, many Scots living in the rest of the UK who are unable to vote and who would be eligible but oppose independence.

"I would assume that every UK national who would by birth be a citizen of the New Scotland would have the option of retaining UK citizenship. "

This is correct, unless/until the UK retroactively revises its citizenship laws.

Someone born in Glasgow in, say, 2000 was still born in the UK; under current UK law eligibility would not change because Scotland later left the UK. Someone born in New York to a British citizen otherwise than by decent is still entitled to British citizenship by birth, whether the parent was born in Scotland or elsewhere in the UK. The complications will arise (in the event of a yes vote) for children born after March 2016.

The UK COULD decide to limit/prevent dual citizenship between Scotland and the UK for individuals who acquire Scottish citizenship as a result of independence -- but this also would require action/a change in policy (if not actually in law), as the UK currently allows citizens who are naturalised in another country to retain British citizenship in addition to their new citizenship if desired.

kasja - I was looking at how people could become "Scottish" - which is a different question. I can't see any prospect that the government of what would be left [Small Britain? Just Britain? or just Britain?] would prevent those who currently qualify for british citizenship from continuing to do so.

<<Someone born in New York to a British citizen otherwise than by decent is still entitled to British citizenship by birth, whether the parent was born in Scotland or elsewhere in the UK.>>

I don't follow this. how can you be born "otherwise than by decent" [sic] ? in your example, the child would be entitled to british citizenship by descent, not by birth.

Well we will know tomorrow whether to continue this discussion or not but if it is a Yes vote and questions for travellers are relevant, I can see some potentially serious issues arising.

Suppose for example, someone currently has a UK passport and ties to Scotland (living there or not). Will they have to choose between a UK or Scottish passport or will they be able to hold both under current UK dual citizenship rules?

The UK allows dual citizenship now. Until they passed a law changing that someone who also happened to have a Scottish passport could hold both unless an independent Scotland did not allow dual citizenship.

The issue there is 'grandfathering'. If you already have a UK passport you would be 'grandfathered' in. To stop that, the UK would actually have to pass a law disallowing dual citizenship between the UK and Scotland and make it retroactive. I don't know if they could even legally do that under UK law.

Assume another scenario. You have to choose one or the other passport and Scotland is not in the EU. Do you now give up your right to live and work in all the EU countries in favour of just the right to live and work in Scotland?

So many questions, so few answers. Yet people are voting without knowing what it may bring. There is something wrong with that picture.

When the various colonies gained independence, residents there who were British citizens became overnight citizens of the new country, and no longer British (unless they had an independent claim based on birth in the UK itself). I would expect the same to apply to Scotland.