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View Poll Results: Does An American Have Freedom Of Science?

Voters

26. You may not vote on this poll

No; there are limits to religious freedom when that is contradicted by science

Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

That's fine. Just realize that I probably wouldn't hire most of the kids ages 18-25 that I see to dig a ditch for me, regardless of whether they got their education at a public or private school.

That's quite alright by me.I have a knack for seeing the hidden talent in people and giving them a chance when others such as yourself won't.I volunteer at a program that teaches culinary skills to at risk teens."Carlos" had a knack for cooking,and when he became 18,I gave him a job at one of my restaurants as a dishwasher.Eight years later,he's my assistant chef at my latest restaurant,and a fine cook.He has a home,a wife and 2 lovely twins now.I took a chance on him,and we both benefitted from it.

Originally Posted by Tigger

Then again, there are those of us who would never work for someone like your daughter anyway. Not because of her educational background, but because of her gender.

Again that is quite alright by me.There are plenty of other people out there who are just as qualified or better who don't have that problem working for my daughter because of her gender.
As both a parent and a businessman,there is nothing I like better than people who are willing to limit their own options in life because of some ideology.That just means more opportunities for success and wealth for me,my children,my grandchildren,my great-grandchildren.....so you just go on right ahead doing with what you are doing and believing whatever it is you want to believe.You are just doing me and my family a HUGE FAVOR by not willing or able to compete.

Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

Originally Posted by Verthaine

As both a parent and a businessman,there is nothing I like better than people who are willing to limit their own options in life because of some ideology.That just means more opportunities for success and wealth for me,my children,my grandchildren,my great-grandchildren.....so you just go on right ahead doing with what you are doing and believing whatever it is you want to believe.You are just doing me and my family a HUGE FAVOR by not willing or able to compete.

We'll see how that works out for the lot of you on the OTHER side of Eternity.

Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

Originally Posted by clownboy

Excellent summation. I'd like to add a couple points though. One of the reasons I see folks reject many scientific conclusions is down to reproducability. So many scientific conclusions are not reproducible by lay people (they do not have the tools, equipment or learning to do so). Also, again, many times, the scientific conclusion is at direct odds with the individual's life experience.

However, you leave out a very important factor, which Goshin mentioned - scientists are human just like everyone else. They fudge numbers, seek advancement in their fields (sometimes to the exclusion of accuracy), cheat, deceive and downright just get it wrong. The tools of scientific inquiry are sound, the problem is the nut behind the wheel.

Not wanting to start anything but I did cover your last point. Reproducability. The Scientific method REQUIRES that any experiment or theory be subject to and be able to be reproduced. This is where the quacks get caught. They data is so off or bogus that no one else can reproduce what they did by using thier data and/or information. A classic example of this is back about 15 years ago some "scientists" claimed to have solved cold fusion. Even Clinton got on the band wagon, but when other labs tried to reproduce what they did based on thier data it was found to be a hoax. This is the part of science that the lay person doesn't realize. And it is not just one time reproducability its over and over and over again.

My particular flavor of animal behavior (ethology) is Tinbergian as opposed to Lorenzian. Nicos Tinbergen was an ethologist during the early part of the last century who worked in Germany, Sweden and England. He developed a strict set of guidelines for observation which reguired the ethologist to observe without comment until he could not only repeatedly observe the same behavior over and over and over again, but confirm these repeated observations through research of available literature. This is the essence of good science.

The cracker jack scientist will take short cuts, tweek data (as you said) and in the worst case have an agenda before he/she even starts. If you can't repeat what another scientist did over and over again with the same result it is NOT science, its smoke and mirrors. Fortunately these nut jobs are in the extreme minority the problem is they seem to get all the press and that hurts real science and always has.

"Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

"There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

But surely some things must simply be truths. Is it a belief that gravity attracts mass to other mass? Is it a belief that UV radiation causes skin cancer? Is it a belief that this planet is more than half composed of salt water? Is it a belief that F=MA? Is it a belief that stars are billions of miles away, and not pinpricks in a blanket over the Earth?

The trouble with this kind of notion is that some beliefs straight up contradict truth. Young Earth Creationists believe things that are demonstrably wrong. Christian Scientists who think that medicine is unnecessary are wrong. How much harm are people who hold wrong beliefs allowed to do?

Now mind you, we can punish each person who harms according to a wrong belief, but then there will always be more, and then more harm. It will never end until the wrong beliefs go away. Beliefs that women who didn't conform to expected standards had made a pact with the devil and ought to be killed... they went away. Beliefs that twins were evil and should be killed... they went away. Beliefs that deformed children should be cast away to die... they went away, too.

Beliefs are dangerous. Things you know, that you can prove, those can be debated and discussed. They can be analyzed. You can figure out if they're good or bad. Beliefs are just "I believe xyz, and there's nothing you can say to change that." Unchangeable positions that aren't subject to examination are dangerous.

Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

Originally Posted by Paschendale

That's why belief is bad. Knowledge is good. Belief is bad.

So you would suggest that my Living Will and Do not Resuscitate Order should be voided by the State simply because they do not allow for the treatment of certain diseases that have the chance of being survived, or lived with?

Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

Originally Posted by Pinkie

"How to improve public schools" is a vastly different convo from "no taxpayer dollars should be spent on educating children", Pirate.

The problem with public schools is the argument now exploding in your thread. Education is very personal. No two people will educate their children the excact same way with same emphasis on certain subjects. Public schools came about because people back in the late 1800's thought that the europeans specifically the prussians had a good idea. Well America is NOT europe. We are a different breed of nuts. We are diverse and getting more so as time passes on. Our schools MUST be able to cope with that. One size fits all doesnt work. While I dont agree with public schooling as a general policy sometimes that is a good policy loacaly. State wide or national, is just foolish as we are seeing now, hell your schools were you are are having trouble teaching people to read. Think about all the money and resources you are wasting there with little to show for it. Public schools are not working for your communitie. You need to figure something else out. Radical problems require radical solutions. Everybody is thinking inside the box, to use an overworked cliche. Time to start thinking radicaly, to think about the unthinkable.

Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.

I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.

Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

Originally Posted by Verthaine

That's quite alright by me.I have a knack for seeing the hidden talent in people and giving them a chance when others such as yourself won't.I volunteer at a program that teaches culinary skills to at risk teens."Carlos" had a knack for cooking,and when he became 18,I gave him a job at one of my restaurants as a dishwasher.Eight years later,he's my assistant chef at my latest restaurant,and a fine cook.He has a home,a wife and 2 lovely twins now.I took a chance on him,and we both benefitted from it.

Again that is quite alright by me.There are plenty of other people out there who are just as qualified or better who don't have that problem working for my daughter because of her gender.
As both a parent and a businessman,there is nothing I like better than people who are willing to limit their own options in life because of some ideology.That just means more opportunities for success and wealth for me,my children,my grandchildren,my great-grandchildren.....so you just go on right ahead doing with what you are doing and believing whatever it is you want to believe.You are just doing me and my family a HUGE FAVOR by not willing or able to compete.

I like your style brother. More business men need to think like you. The art of being successfull is learning how to recognize opportunity and then take advantage. Amen and keep preaching.

Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.

I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.

Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

Originally Posted by Paschendale

Beliefs are dangerous. Things you know, that you can prove, those can be debated and discussed. They can be analyzed. You can figure out if they're good or bad. Beliefs are just "I believe xyz, and there's nothing you can say to change that." Unchangeable positions that aren't subject to examination are dangerous.

That's why belief is bad. Knowledge is good. Belief is bad.

Your comment was good until it delved into this gross simplification of the issue.

"Belief good. Knowledge bad." is not a good argument if only for the fact that scientists often have to believe before they create or use the tools required to acquire knowledge.

Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

Originally Posted by PirateMk1

The problem with public schools is the argument now exploding in your thread. Education is very personal. No two people will educate their children the excact same way with same emphasis on certain subjects. Public schools came about because people back in the late 1800's thought that the europeans specifically the prussians had a good idea. Well America is NOT europe. We are a different breed of nuts. We are diverse and getting more so as time passes on. Our schools MUST be able to cope with that. One size fits all doesnt work. While I dont agree with public schooling as a general policy sometimes that is a good policy loacaly. State wide or national, is just foolish as we are seeing now, hell your schools were you are are having trouble teaching people to read. Think about all the money and resources you are wasting there with little to show for it. Public schools are not working for your communitie. You need to figure something else out. Radical problems require radical solutions. Everybody is thinking inside the box, to use an overworked cliche. Time to start thinking radicaly, to think about the unthinkable.

I'd have no problem with localizing textbook purchases, but I do think we need national standards on their contents.

There's an efficiency of scale lost when you don't buy in bulk, but if people want to pay more, I have no heartburn over it.