Mr Man wrote:"experience and reflex" does that equal Vedana and Tanha?

It doesn't really break down in that way, as I use the terms.

Experience is the brute sense input (any of six), and reflexion is awareness of the experience. In other words, reflexion is the opposite of the "auto-pilot" phenomenon where, for example, you'll walk or drive for a distance and then 'snap-to' and realize you haven't been aware for a time.

In the autopilot scenario, vedana, tanha, etc. - all present, but awareness was not present. The only difference in the reflexion scenario is the presence of awareness.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

I have done that "not thinking" a few times and each was for the whole day. It did clear the mind and as I noticed after I ended it, very little joke was more than enough to make me laugh.It is a very beautiful thing to do, and I have been trying to do it again lately.

And it was still possible to "know" and do things. It was like when you sit and breathe, you don't need to think to know that you're breathing. The same is when you feel an itch and scratch it. There's no need to think to feel and scratch it.

Thanks Dave, I didn't read you first post properly and picked up on "experience and reflex" from danieLion's post. I have always looked at thought and thinking in terms of ideas formulated into language within the brain, which is rather narrow. I had looked upon sampajanna as being separate from thought and vitakka/vicara more as functions of mind. With my narrow definition of thought I would say that Not-thinking does become a useful object for meditation.

danieLion wrote:So, when we're thinking, we're not experiencing? They can never occur simultaneously?

A thought is experience but what thought points to (ex: pink colorless unicorn with three horns) may not.

Furthermore, without thinking "My true Self is..." , can at that moment be Self Views? No.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Mr Man wrote:"experience and reflex" does that equal Vedana and Tanha?

I think it is Vedana and Sanna in terms of five aggregate.I think it is Vedana and Phasa etc. interms of dependent originationIt can be viewed in terms of seventeen thought moments as well. Please see the link, para (Mind in its active and pasive form):

Mr Man wrote:"experience and reflex" does that equal Vedana and Tanha?

I think it is Vedana and Sanna in terms of five aggregate.I think it is Vedana and Phasa etc. interms of dependent originationIt can be viewed in terms of seventeen thought moments as well. Please see the link, para (Mind in its active and pasive form):

Thanks for the links SarathW. Overly theoretical for me I'm afraid. I would be interested in hearing what your definition/understanding of "thought" is? Is it "ideas formulated into language within the brain"?

I know this teaching is soy profound. It took me years of reading and practice to get my head around this. Only suggestion I can make to you is please read and practice (Satipattana) so you will find the answer yourself. Sorry I can’t give you a direct answer.

SarathW, here's somthing from Ajahn Sumedho: "As soon as we think about ourselves, we become a person - somebody - but when we are not thinking, the mind is quite empty and there is no sense of person. There is still consciousness, sensitivity, but it's not seen in terms of being a person, of being a man or a woman; there is just awareness of what is happening - what the feeling is, the mood, the atmosphere that one is experiencing in this moment. We can call this intuitive awareness. It is not programmed and conditioned by thought or memory or perception. " Is he talking about "Nirodha Samapatti" or the "Dhayna infinity of space"? http://www.fsnewsletter.amaravati.org/html/38/38.htm

Mr Man wrote:SarathW, here's somthing from Ajahn Sumedho: "As soon as we think about ourselves, we become a person - somebody - but when we are not thinking, the mind is quite empty and there is no sense of person. There is still consciousness, sensitivity, but it's not seen in terms of being a person, of being a man or a woman; there is just awareness of what is happening - what the feeling is, the mood, the atmosphere that one is experiencing in this moment. We can call this intuitive awareness. It is not programmed and conditioned by thought or memory or perception. " Is he talking about "Nirodha Samapatti" or the "Dhayna infinity of space"? http://www.fsnewsletter.amaravati.org/html/38/38.htm

I think he's just talking about ordinary awareness but when, through developing a reasonably stable degree of wakefulness and concentration, the mental blather quiets down and imaginings fade away...

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

kirk5a wrote:I think he's just talking about ordinary awareness but when, through developing a reasonably stable degree of wakefulness and concentration, the mental blather quiets down and imaginings fade away...

Exactly. And that is the beauty of the practice. It is here and now, It is not complicated, we don't need special states or conditions. Just a bit of a framework and some diligence.

I think animal or a newly born children do not have self-awareness (ego). They just live day by day. I do not think they can become arahants because their rebirth consciousness is conditioned by attachment, aversion and ignorance. I am glad to see that Ajhan Sumedho seems to think that attaining arhantship is child play. I wish I can think the same!