The Thirteenth Stoke Newington World Music Festival will be held next year on June 17th, 18th, & 19th at Temple Mills, off Temple Mills Lane, Hackney, E9. The line up is The Upcoming Willows with Ron Wilson as well as Freddy Waite and the Uniques with Roy Shirley and Keith Smith, plus also The Eternals, The Righteous Flames, The Reggae Boys, The Cambodians and The Rulers, Sang Hugh, Derrick & Patsy, Junior Byles, Prince Buster, Stranger & Ken, Owen & Leon Silvera, Frankie Paul. Ken Parker, The Shades, Zion Train, Love Grocer, Gaz Mayall's Trojans, Ska Cubano plus sounds from Swing Easy, Nelson Dilation, Ska Nick and Frontline sound systems. Penny Reel will be playing a King Pioneer, King Edwards, Beverleys and Randys special ska session from noon on the 19th until 6pm - that's six solid hours of artists like Theo Beckford, Lloyd Clarke, Keith Walker, the Two Kings, Bobby Aitken, Andy & Clyde, Shenley Duffus, Jackie Opel, Maytals, Skatalites and Lord Creator.

"low attendance"?...last year seemed about the same as the others at frogtown.
that said, if attendance was lower than usual here are two reasons:
1) miserable weather
2) (imho) a relatively weak lineup, especially "headliners".

Yea JB wasn't there about 10,000 or so people in attendance that first year. Now that year it was a scorcher.............Can't wait for this year. Bring it home to 95901. Much more trees there...........................ROB

I think Warren realized his mistake with Shaggy and is adjusting his strategy. The big money guys don't always give good results. Case in point was Groundation vs. Shaggy. Considering what he paid for both, he got 10 times more out of Groundation. He should of just went with Luciano as that night's headliner.

I vote for Warren to get Misty in Roots and have them headline one night with a full band including horn section. They were misssing that at Bob Marley Days in Long Beach this year.Throw in some other UK action and maybe Penny, zoki and his parrot will even show up. It's obvious Stevo and posse would be well pleased with that idea.

420, I respect, but disagree. Maybe he made a mistake with Shaggy, but not in the money he was willing to pay to for a headliner. I would rather see Bounty closing out a night than Groundation. Would Rather see the Ghetto Youths than Misty in Roots. And as far as Shaggy goes, no one (menaing very few poeople) decided to cancel their trip when they heard Shaggy was going to be there. I gaurentee a few people decided to go when they heard that. Maybe not your crowd, but there is no doubt that Shaggy is far more of an attraction to the masses of people then Groundation. This doesn't mean that Shaggy is better, it really has little to do with music or talent, it is a popularity contest.

dirtweed i wont argue that those you mentioned (minus morgan heritage) would quality in my book as "weak" but to a number of other people, not so deep into it, at least pulse remains a big draw. shaggy was just a predictable letdown but the potential was there for something nice and actually it was better in retrospect, especially in parts, than i was thinking at the time. i believe he *did* sell some tickets but probably not nearly enough to make up for the cost. lessons learned and all that...

as for your suggestions, those are exactly the sort of artists i push for everytime although often they cost more than they can possibly draw. MIR are an example especially if they were to bring their whole band.

I spent 4 years lurkin on the North Coast Sistren. From Laytonville up to C. City. In both the hills and the valleys. More people know Shaggy than know Groundation PERIOD. As I said this has nothing to do with who is better. It is a statement of fact. What I am saying is that if you wnat to get thousands of people somewhere and you have a choice between Shaggy and Groundation it isn't even close. Now having said that, you might not like all the people at the show, it may be a total different mood than you ae wanting for your show, but in sheer numbers, no chance. Not even dead center in the middle of Arcata. You underestimate the power of pop music.

Okay, then let me re-phrase my point. I bet you more of the SNWMF atendees favor Groundation over Shaggy. In fact, you make an important point as well which is that Shaggy IS pop music, and the pop crowd, (at least around here) don't want to go to no hippyfest. But if you are talking about which is more widely known, instead of widely liked, Shaggy would be it. Doesn't mean he's popular..

it actually does mean he is popular, but yes you are correct, if you want Sierra to be a hippie fest then by all means. But I don't think Stone Love wants to go to a hippyfest. Nor does Capleton, nor does Sizzla, Nor do a lot of Ras who are from the city themselves. More attendees, you got me there that is probably quite true, but over another like Beenie, I don't think so. Peace

i'm sorry, but if the Twinkle Brothers, Yami Bolo, or the Congos are your nights headliners...then there are serious issues. i'm not taking anything away from these artisits...as i have seen them all live and they put on a nice show. but to close out a night...u need serious artists with tons of hype. and i'm sorry, they just dont do it in that aspect. and i agree with Ninjacat, i dont want a full on hippy fest happening here....

and to explain a hippy fest...well its pretty much what a lot of concerts in norcal are..just a bunch of hippies coming for a good smoke...not so much good music. having been to shows in both cali and england...i'll take the british/jamaican crowd anyday.

>But I don't think Stone Love wants to go to a hippyfest. Nor does Capleton, nor does Sizzla, Nor do a lot of Ras who are from the city themselves.

I think that statement is off-base, artists, including capleton and sizzla and all these guys claiming to be righteous or whatever, all love "hippyfests" because the people going to them often have extremley high amounts of money to spend on stuff. And the more money people at those fests spend, the more money winds up in the artist's pocket.

My god. Actually it was I who used the term "hippyfest" to describe how pop music fans in Norcal probably regard a music festival like the SNWMF. I think Ninja misinterpreted what I said as myself calling the Sierra Nevada a "hippyfest" and proceeded to list artists who have performed at Sierra that would not want to be associated with a "hippyfest". All of this leading me to conclude that he had completely missed what I was trying to say. So no, I do not think Sierra Nevada is a hippyfest, wasn't trying to call anyone a hippy (god forbid that right..), just trying to make the point that Shaggy's fans around here are probably not the type to go to a weekend of reggae music and camping outside. And I think Ganjalion exemplified the attitude I was describing quite nicely when he said, "and to explain a hippy fest...well its pretty much what a lot of concerts in norcal are..just a bunch of hippies coming for a good smoke...not so much good music." But didn't we talk about all this last year? A better question to ask would be "What is a hippy?" This ain't the 60s. But I think we've talked about that already too...

Way more hippies than Rasta in nor cal. In my opinion Rotr and SNWMf are mostly attended by people who would also go see phish and spearhead , enjoy herbs and arent necessarily there to see reggae first and foremost

I wasn't trying to suggest that Groundation is a better choice than Shaggy. I think Warren expected that Shaggy would bring more people and give him a different set than he got and I think he got neither. As opposed to Groundation who he got for much cheaper and I think to him was suprisingly better received than he expected. I was speaking more to knowing his crowd and getting value for his money. In those terms I think I'm right and I think Warren took note of that. I don't disagree with you on him spending big money for a headliner. I would agree that Shaggy is more popular to the masses than Groundation, but this is also Norcal and Groundation has a strong base here.

I personally would rather see Misty In Roots than Ghetto Youths. I've seen both. I will take the quality roots over the energy, not that Ghetto Youths doesn't have quality. I tend to lean towards roots so my bias is there. Not trying to take anything away from the Ghetto Youths. I do understand though that others may want the energy. I'm just a wall-hugger and am perfectly fine with plopping my behind down in the grass. Sometimes hype will carry a so-so act, but I'll admit when it's hype/energy combined with quality then you've got a serious headliner. It's just that sometimes the hype is just that.....hype in the absence of quality.

As for the hippyfest stuff you're dead wrong. These guys will go wherever there's good money from my experience. If that weren't the case then why do they go to the River? It's not like that place is the Rastaman's 1st choice. That place is all about the party and energy. Ain't nothin' Ras about The River. Not that Sierra is either, but it does tend to attract a more rootsier crowd. Maybe those lines are blurring more and more these days, but compared to what I saw at The River this year, Sierra is Grounation. I didn't see any strippers or pole dancing at Sierra.

it is held on the weekend closest to the solstice. that is the 3rd or 4th weekend of the year. this year the solstice is in the middle of the week and in looking for a venue the option of using the 3rd or 4th weekend is being kept open. more to come but its pretty sure that it will be one or the other.

it's 6 months from Wed. Dec. 21st -Winter Solstice
yea JB's correct, it's Summer Solstice weekend and has been since it was Gathering-o-Vibes
and this is one of the funnest threads yet!!
you are all wacked bigtime!!!!
but I guess thats why I love you all, Crazy reggae listening, roots talking, rasta wearing, funny ass people!

ACA, I wasn't dissin you at all. What I was saying is that a lot of these cats come from the city a very urban environment. A lot of much closer to Hip Hop than to Roots. At this point in time a lot of rap music and urban music in general is on the pop charts and will attract a pop crowd. I have never been but I would assume that Sting and Sumfest attract a lot more city dwellers than "hippies" It would be my guess that the money being equall a lot of the current dancehall and culture artists would rather play to these crowds. I see more clearly now what you were saying that the "pop crowd" sees SNWMF as a hippyfest, this is probably true. That may be why Shaggy was selected to come as a headliner because Hippy's don't spend as much loot as city folk. Just my 2 cents

>That may be why Shaggy was selected to come as a headliner because Hippy's
>don't spend as much loot as city folk

believe me, that has absolutely nothing at all to do with why shaggy was "selected" to play at the festival last year. it had to do with selling tickets, not spending "loot"...if anything it was an attempt to attract an audience (women mostly to be frank who would bring their boyfriends etc) who would otherwise not attend the festival. these "hippy's" as you call them (i dont think of it as that, more like roots music lovers) would presumably already be drawn to the show by the other more rootsy acts and would presumably have low interest in shaggy (hence being on vs groundation)...however that presumption may or may not have come to pass. actually we hope everyone can enjoy all the artists for what they bring to the table; that may not always be the case.

Ninja, I'd go out on a limb and say that most of the people you are calling hippies ARE city dwellers. One is not the opposite of the other. Not that I see the point of making a distinction like that, especially since I don't know exactly who you have in mind. You mean the kids that wear the patchwork pants?

Now I was calling them "hippies" not to say that is what they are. By city dwellers I mean the folks who don't go camping and the folks who think that an air matress is roughing it. Those who spend the vast majority of their time in the comforts that the city provides.

Well I think that festivals like MBRF and the Bob Marley Day festivals do a good job in accomodating 'city dwellers'.

As the site states "The Sierra Nevada World Music Festival is a 3 day music and camping festival held annually over the Summer Solstice weekend." You state that there are "Ras who are from the city themselves" that don't want no party in no hippy fest cause they don't like 'roughing it', but I got kicked out of my camping spot one year and was forced into hotel quarters for a night precisely because one such "Ras" wanted the FULL SNWMF experience.

I agree with Acacia that most of the "pop crowd" that loves Shaggy really isn't into the 'camping' experience. I also think that your use of the word 'hippy', without providing us with any guidance as to what you mean by that term, serves little purpose other than confusion...

ganjalion - if "u need serious artists with tons of hype" to close out a show maybe you should just stay home and spin your cds. i go to reggae shows/festivals to see performers who make the music i love, the fact that they do not have 'tons of hype" does not take away from the music they make or my appreciation of being able to see them live. if you are talking about the business side of the festival, i do understand that "serious artists with tons of hype" MAY be needed. on the other hand, there are many many who would come just to see the performers without all the hype (dennis alcapone, makka b, etal) and i would be happy with snwmf going that direction.

two different conversations Daniel. Hippy began, in this conversation, as a sterotype that the pop crowd had for festivals like Sierra. we can put an end to all of this. My claim was that an artist like Shaggy, any artist that rates on the pop charts, will put more bodies in the crowd, than a group like Groundation or Midnite. Bar none, this will happen everytime. The crowd will be different, but as far as sheer numbers go it won't even be close. This doesn't mater where the show is, Arcata, SF, Santa Cruz or LA. EVERYTIME. I also said this has nothing to do with how talented a band is and everything to do with how popular they are. As far as city dwellers v. hippies that was all a side note as to who would show up where.

I agree with you that Shaggy would sell more tickets to SNWMF than Groundation, but that is hardly a fair comparison for two reasons.

First, Groundation is a popular roots band here in northern california. I would imagine that a very high percentage of Groundation fans ARE ALREADY COMING TO SNWMF to see artists like Dennis Alcapone, Winston Jarrett, The Abyssinians and others of that genre. So the addition of Groundation doesn't add too much in terms of additional sales, whereas the addition of Shaggy would draw from what you have called the 'pop crowd' that might not otherwise come to the festival.

Secondly, and even more importantly, Groundation is not in the same hemisphere of 'pay-scale' that Shaggy is. IF the purpose of adding an act is to attract more ticket sales, then obviously the higher the cost of that act, the more tickets you would have to sell in order to make it worthwhile from a financial (not musical) perspective.

So, perhaps the more appropriate question should be, at a 3-day musical camping event, who "will put more bodies in the crowd",

I am not privy to the figures but would venture to guess that Shaggy cost the festival MORE than all of these other acts COMBINED. And while I have no way of knowing, I have a strong suspicion that the above list of artists 'put (a lot) more bodies in the crowd' than Mr. Lover Lover did.....

>My claim was that an artist like Shaggy, any artist that rates on the pop charts,
>will put more bodies in the crowd, than a group like Groundation or Midnite.

i think this is completely incorrect esp as it applies to midnite. and i think that was shown very plainly by last years fest. i believe shaggy might have sold 10 tickets on his own name (by that i mean to people who would not have otherwise attended) but that was about it. midnite (from the year before), if not groundation, drew the crowd much more than shaggy and that may be largely because the balance of acts would not appeal to your typical shaggy listener while they would appeal to your typical midnite listener. in other words, no one went out of their way to come see shaggy alone, yet many came to see midnite especially given there was much more music similar to midnite (eg: non-pop reggae) for those people to enjoy.

I would think that few, if any, people come to a festival like this just to see one particular artist. Its the total lineup for the day or weekend that would be what draws or doesn't draw.

That would be a horribly narrow-minded person that would come to a festival like this just for one artist and was not interested in seeing others perform...But then again, maybe Im just outta touch with the obsessed fanatical's .

"My claim was that an artist like Shaggy, any artist that rates on the pop charts, will put more bodies in the crowd, than a group like Groundation or Midnite. Bar none, this will happen everytime. The crowd will be different, but as far as sheer numbers go it won't even be close. This doesn't mater where the show is, Arcata, SF, Santa Cruz or LA. EVERYTIME."

Again I ask, why do you come for discussion when you already know everything? That is so off-putting. I believe you're wrong in the case of the SNWMF. That Shaggy himself would not, and did not put more bodies in the crowd than Groundation. Atmosphere matters. And I think that would have to be my final word on this subject.

Even tho I still think bringing in Shaggy was a flop, Shaggy & Groundtion DID provide a nice balance for each other. The two crowds between the stages were quite different from each other, which was exactly the point.
I suggest Beenie Man for Saturday night main stage closer this coming year, tho (int'l ladies DJ who appeals to many more types of reggae fan than Shaggy).

ACA, just as I seem to be missing your point I think you are missing mine. I am confused why you think I am saying I know everything. It just seems like basic public information. There is a reason why someone like Shaggy is a multi platinum artist. A lot of people like him. All I am saying is that Shaggy has more fans than Groundation. That is it, that is all. No more, no less. I never said that people come to the festival to see one artist. That would indeed be strange. ACA, I thought that you and I go way back and yet you use such harsh words. It is MY OPINION, that big names lend credibility to shows. Some who otherwise migh look down a line up and not recognize any names, might be like, well I know so and so and if he is there maybe this is worth while. Just a thought.

PS Chimino you hit it on the head with Beenie, that would be big time.

Ninja, I generally enjoy discussing things with you, it is only when you state YOUR OPINION as absolute fact that I get turned off to the conversation. Using words such as "bar none" and "EVERYTIME" is not the best way to state your opinion, if you see my point there. I never said that Groundation is more popular than Shaggy is on a large scale. I was speaking in terms of Northern California reggae fans and potential atendees of the SNWMF in particular. No question Shaggy is more widely listened to than Groundation, but in the context of the SN fest and Norcal reggae fans in general, I stand by my original statement that Groundation is regarded more highly than Shaggy. I can't present any statistics to prove it, but it is my opinion. Sure, someone technically *might* read the lineup and recognize Shaggy and want to come, but with all the strings attatched, (camping, few hours driving, ticket price, etc.) I think they are not likely to come. I don't mean to offend you or speak harshly, I just find it frustrating to talk to you sometimes because of the way you present your opinion in such a way that seems designed to shut me down. It doesn't mean I don't like you.

"Kind Hippy" vs. "Party Hippy" ... I think more "Party Hippies" if ya ask me
Get over it and just admit that a good amount of "attendies" are "Hippies" .. I think if you dont lie to yourself and really think about it you can probably understand what "Hippy" means .. Maybe not ... Oh well ..

of course I am not offended. forgive me for my firm language, I have moods from time to time, JB can atest to this. That is the good thing about most of these festivals a little something for everyone.

A lot of the attendees are like myself. I'm way out in BF East, Alabama to be exact. A reggae wasteland. I get one, maybe two opportunities a year to travel to a reggae fest and maximize my experience, and I'm sure that I'm not alone in that situation. So, if I see a show headlined by a Shaggy (who's ok in my bood but nothing special) and having a weak undercard, I ain't coming. If I see a show featuring Groundation, SOJA, the VI Roots Explosion, Sugar Minott, the Abyssinians, etc. I'm thinking only rabid dogs could keep me from coming. Which is why 2 years in a row I've flown in from far away and paid someone to do my job while I'm gone. And it's for more than just the music too....the food, the vibe, you just can't beat it. And especially meeting new friends.

Bottom line, the collection of talent, not just one single artist, is what inspires many of us to attend. And I for one would love to see Misty in Roots this summer