Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

Obviously Jon Snow is going to be revived/reanimated by the red woman

I'm thinking it's time that they put a stop to killing characters and instead focus on killing story arcs during this season, I haven't read the books yet but if Mr. R. R. Martin wants to finish just half of what he has started with his work then it's about time it starts to come together, there is so few books left. I'd imagine that the ties between him and the writers behind the show puts GoT in a position where they can get ahead on closing down some of those story arcs (for practical reasons).

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

Wizard wrote:

Wait, what. The red woman...

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...is old. Really old.I wonder if she will use that neck collar on Jon Snow to bring him back.?

+ show spoiler

Nah there was an earlier Priest of 'Lord of the Light' who revived/reanimated an one-eye bandit, the red woman is from the same faith and as such we can probably assume that she can ask for the same (Assuming the 'Lord of Light' is willing to do it).

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

+ show spoiler

Nah there was an earlier Priest of 'Lord of the Light' who revived/reanimated an one-eye bandit, the red woman is from the same faith and as such we can probably assume that she can ask for the same (Assuming the 'Lord of Light' is willing to do it).

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That is the most popular theory, but many also seem to think it would be a bit obvious and with that boring. The priest who brought Beric Dondarrion back said he did not know how it happened, even if it was the sixth resurrection we got to see. Beric was a respected lord before his first resurrection made him the leader of the brotherhood without banners.

It would make sense if the Red Woman would have the power to bring someone back. Still she would probably have tried to do so already if she could. She seemed rather taken back that Jon was now dead, without being able to make some of her visions come true. Maybe the priest stumbling on to that power was purely accidental and it is not common knowledge even within the more powerful followers of R'hllor.

The practice is more common for the ice side. The problem there would be that it seems to come with mind control, or at least no trace of who they used to be before being brought back. Beric and the red priest also said that more of Beric's memories and old self is lost with each resurrection. That part seem to be much more harsh on the ice side. The leaders of he white walkers come from another ritual as we saw with the baby being turned.

With that I think it would be hard for them to make sense of Jon Snow getting his life back from the White Walkers. Especially since there is no one around to be able to perform the ritual. If they want to give Jon Snow his life back, I think the only viable choice we currently know about would be the red woman. If that happens I would assume that the final scene we got to see with her will be important in some way. Maybe her way of bringing a person back is very taxing on her. It might force her to lose the power of her necklace, making everyone able to see her true form. It also makes a lot of sense that she will bring Jon back as, even if she claims Stannis was R'hllor reborn, all her visions point towards it actually being Jon Snow who holds that honor. If that is true, certainly Jon Snow's death can not be final, and it might make Jon Snow believe he is the champion of light once he is given his life back.

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

drizzel wrote:

+ show spoiler

That is the most popular theory, but many also seem to think it would be a bit obvious and with that boring. The priest who brought Beric Dondarrion back said he did not know how it happened, even if it was the sixth resurrection we got to see. Beric was a respected lord before his first resurrection made him the leader of the brotherhood without banners.

It would make sense if the Red Woman would have the power to bring someone back. Still she would probably have tried to do so already if she could. She seemed rather taken back that Jon was now dead, without being able to make some of her visions come true. Maybe the priest stumbling on to that power was purely accidental and it is not common knowledge even within the more powerful followers of R'hllor.

The practice is more common for the ice side. The problem there would be that it seems to come with mind control, or at least no trace of who they used to be before being brought back. Beric and the red priest also said that more of Beric's memories and old self is lost with each resurrection. That part seem to be much more harsh on the ice side. The leaders of he white walkers come from another ritual as we saw with the baby being turned.

With that I think it would be hard for them to make sense of Jon Snow getting his life back from the White Walkers. Especially since there is no one around to be able to perform the ritual. If they want to give Jon Snow his life back, I think the only viable choice we currently know about would be the red woman. If that happens I would assume that the final scene we got to see with her will be important in some way. Maybe her way of bringing a person back is very taxing on her. It might force her to lose the power of her necklace, making everyone able to see her true form. It also makes a lot of sense that she will bring Jon back as, even if she claims Stannis was R'hllor reborn, all her visions point towards it actually being Jon Snow who holds that honor. If that is true, certainly Jon Snow's death can not be final, and it might make Jon Snow believe he is the champion of light once he is given his life back.

+ show spoiler

I think you've misunderstood Berics statement a bit, it's not that he doesn't know what happened with the resurrections, it's that he doesn't know what happened to make the 'Lord of the Light' give him the ability to do resurrections. He was a drunk that had lost faith and suddenly his god gave him great powers. Why? What happened? (We can sorta guess that it was the return of dragons that allowed it similar to the necromancers in Quarth but we don't know for sure).

Regarding the Red Woman, again I think you've misunderstood it a bit, yes she seems sad but not because of Jon Snow but because she have lost faith in her god, all her promises to Stannis turned out false, everything that was revealed to her was false or manipulated and she had to run or risk being executed by Stannis after his wife, it's a huge hit to her faith and she is now in the same position as Beric was in regard to faith.

It comes together and makes sense if you view it in this way. Now obviously it can down an entirely different route but.. I would be willing to bet on it.

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

jpvg wrote:

drizzel wrote:

+ show spoiler

That is the most popular theory, but many also seem to think it would be a bit obvious and with that boring. The priest who brought Beric Dondarrion back said he did not know how it happened, even if it was the sixth resurrection we got to see. Beric was a respected lord before his first resurrection made him the leader of the brotherhood without banners.

It would make sense if the Red Woman would have the power to bring someone back. Still she would probably have tried to do so already if she could. She seemed rather taken back that Jon was now dead, without being able to make some of her visions come true. Maybe the priest stumbling on to that power was purely accidental and it is not common knowledge even within the more powerful followers of R'hllor.

The practice is more common for the ice side. The problem there would be that it seems to come with mind control, or at least no trace of who they used to be before being brought back. Beric and the red priest also said that more of Beric's memories and old self is lost with each resurrection. That part seem to be much more harsh on the ice side. The leaders of he white walkers come from another ritual as we saw with the baby being turned.

With that I think it would be hard for them to make sense of Jon Snow getting his life back from the White Walkers. Especially since there is no one around to be able to perform the ritual. If they want to give Jon Snow his life back, I think the only viable choice we currently know about would be the red woman. If that happens I would assume that the final scene we got to see with her will be important in some way. Maybe her way of bringing a person back is very taxing on her. It might force her to lose the power of her necklace, making everyone able to see her true form. It also makes a lot of sense that she will bring Jon back as, even if she claims Stannis was R'hllor reborn, all her visions point towards it actually being Jon Snow who holds that honor. If that is true, certainly Jon Snow's death can not be final, and it might make Jon Snow believe he is the champion of light once he is given his life back.

+ show spoiler

I think you've misunderstood Berics statement a bit, it's not that he doesn't know what happened with the resurrections, it's that he doesn't know what happened to make the 'Lord of the Light' give him the ability to do resurrections. He was a drunk that had lost faith and suddenly his god gave him great powers. Why? What happened? (We can sorta guess that it was the return of dragons that allowed it similar to the necromancers in Quarth but we don't know for sure).

Regarding the Red Woman, again I think you've misunderstood it a bit, yes she seems sad but not because of Jon Snow but because she have lost faith in her god, all her promises to Stannis turned out false, everything that was revealed to her was false or manipulated and she had to run or risk being executed by Stannis after his wife, it's a huge hit to her faith and she is now in the same position as Beric was in regard to faith.

It comes together and makes sense if you view it in this way. Now obviously it can down an entirely different route but.. I would be willing to bet on it.

+ show spoiler

It is Thoros of Myr who is the priest of the Lord of the Light. At first Beric does not follow that religion but sometime after leaving King's Landing after being ordered to find Gregor Clegane, and Arya meeting with Brotherhood without Banners, Beric picks up the religion. Most likely after Thoros of Myr manages to resurrect him.As you said Thoros of Myr is mostly just a priest by name when we first see him, but after managing to resurrect Beric his powers are starting to grow. Same as for many other places and for other people. Some say that it is because of the dragons, and others say that the dragons could be hatched for the same reason. It is hard for us to know.

I think that in the books it is said that Thoros have heard that it is possible to bring someone back to life but that he has never seen it or experienced that someone else has done it. It is also said in the books that it was when Thoros was doing the burying ritual that he accidentally gives Beric life again performing the last kiss. With that I hold it as clear that he did not try to bring Beric back but that it was just something that happened.

I do not agree with your view of the Red Woman. I do not think she has lost faith in her god. She might be confused in some of the divine guidance she have received, and now she is uncertain about what role she will play. It is reasonable that her visions sent her to Stannis, bringing her faith to a new country, leading a man to become king there and playing an important part in what she thinks is to come in the battle between fire and ice. At this point it would be reasonable if she either feels she have failed in that, or that her own part will be that of a sacrifice. I think that is very different to Thoros of Myr.

I never said the Red Woman is sad because of Jon Snow. She is clearly taken when she comes to see him early on in episode one. She says "I saw him fighting in the flames, at Winterfell." She is now doubting her visions. If it was easy for her to bring him back, surely she would have done so at that time. I take it as her not knowing the proper way to give someone their life back. Certainly she must have heard that there used to a practice like that, but just as Thoros she might not have done it or seen anyone else do it. She is older and at least she was more powerful during the previous magic drought, so it would not be surprising if she had more of an inkling on how to do it and will try it in a later episode. Thoros had no powers, other than putting his sword on fire but that can be achieved by other means, while the Red Woman knows she have a lot of powers.

In the book "A Feast for Crows", Thoros hints that a sacrifice is needed to bring someone back, even if we did not get any such hint after the trial by battle fight between Beric and Sandor Clegane. The show is of course different and they can carry things out as they wish, but if the Red Woman tries it I think it would be interesting to see how that is solved. If a sacrifice is needed then he would they use?

I am sorry that you misunderstood my other post. I doubt this post will be more clear, but at least I gave it a try.

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

drizzel wrote:

jpvg wrote:

drizzel wrote:

+ show spoiler

That is the most popular theory, but many also seem to think it would be a bit obvious and with that boring. The priest who brought Beric Dondarrion back said he did not know how it happened, even if it was the sixth resurrection we got to see. Beric was a respected lord before his first resurrection made him the leader of the brotherhood without banners.

It would make sense if the Red Woman would have the power to bring someone back. Still she would probably have tried to do so already if she could. She seemed rather taken back that Jon was now dead, without being able to make some of her visions come true. Maybe the priest stumbling on to that power was purely accidental and it is not common knowledge even within the more powerful followers of R'hllor.

The practice is more common for the ice side. The problem there would be that it seems to come with mind control, or at least no trace of who they used to be before being brought back. Beric and the red priest also said that more of Beric's memories and old self is lost with each resurrection. That part seem to be much more harsh on the ice side. The leaders of he white walkers come from another ritual as we saw with the baby being turned.

With that I think it would be hard for them to make sense of Jon Snow getting his life back from the White Walkers. Especially since there is no one around to be able to perform the ritual. If they want to give Jon Snow his life back, I think the only viable choice we currently know about would be the red woman. If that happens I would assume that the final scene we got to see with her will be important in some way. Maybe her way of bringing a person back is very taxing on her. It might force her to lose the power of her necklace, making everyone able to see her true form. It also makes a lot of sense that she will bring Jon back as, even if she claims Stannis was R'hllor reborn, all her visions point towards it actually being Jon Snow who holds that honor. If that is true, certainly Jon Snow's death can not be final, and it might make Jon Snow believe he is the champion of light once he is given his life back.

+ show spoiler

I think you've misunderstood Berics statement a bit, it's not that he doesn't know what happened with the resurrections, it's that he doesn't know what happened to make the 'Lord of the Light' give him the ability to do resurrections. He was a drunk that had lost faith and suddenly his god gave him great powers. Why? What happened? (We can sorta guess that it was the return of dragons that allowed it similar to the necromancers in Quarth but we don't know for sure).

Regarding the Red Woman, again I think you've misunderstood it a bit, yes she seems sad but not because of Jon Snow but because she have lost faith in her god, all her promises to Stannis turned out false, everything that was revealed to her was false or manipulated and she had to run or risk being executed by Stannis after his wife, it's a huge hit to her faith and she is now in the same position as Beric was in regard to faith.

It comes together and makes sense if you view it in this way. Now obviously it can down an entirely different route but.. I would be willing to bet on it.

+ show spoiler

It is Thoros of Myr who is the priest of the Lord of the Light. At first Beric does not follow that religion but sometime after leaving King's Landing after being ordered to find Gregor Clegane, and Arya meeting with Brotherhood without Banners, Beric picks up the religion. Most likely after Thoros of Myr manages to resurrect him.As you said Thoros of Myr is mostly just a priest by name when we first see him, but after managing to resurrect Beric his powers are starting to grow. Same as for many other places and for other people. Some say that it is because of the dragons, and others say that the dragons could be hatched for the same reason. It is hard for us to know.

I think that in the books it is said that Thoros have heard that it is possible to bring someone back to life but that he has never seen it or experienced that someone else has done it. It is also said in the books that it was when Thoros was doing the burying ritual that he accidentally gives Beric life again performing the last kiss. With that I hold it as clear that he did not try to bring Beric back but that it was just something that happened.

I do not agree with your view of the Red Woman. I do not think she has lost faith in her god. She might be confused in some of the divine guidance she have received, and now she is uncertain about what role she will play. It is reasonable that her visions sent her to Stannis, bringing her faith to a new country, leading a man to become king there and playing an important part in what she thinks is to come in the battle between fire and ice. At this point it would be reasonable if she either feels she have failed in that, or that her own part will be that of a sacrifice. I think that is very different to Thoros of Myr.

I never said the Red Woman is sad because of Jon Snow. She is clearly taken when she comes to see him early on in episode one. She says "I saw him fighting in the flames, at Winterfell." She is now doubting her visions. If it was easy for her to bring him back, surely she would have done so at that time. I take it as her not knowing the proper way to give someone their life back. Certainly she must have heard that there used to a practice like that, but just as Thoros she might not have done it or seen anyone else do it. She is older and at least she was more powerful during the previous magic drought, so it would not be surprising if she had more of an inkling on how to do it and will try it in a later episode. Thoros had no powers, other than putting his sword on fire but that can be achieved by other means, while the Red Woman knows she have a lot of powers.

In the book "A Feast for Crows", Thoros hints that a sacrifice is needed to bring someone back, even if we did not get any such hint after the trial by battle fight between Beric and Sandor Clegane. The show is of course different and they can carry things out as they wish, but if the Red Woman tries it I think it would be interesting to see how that is solved. If a sacrifice is needed then he would they use?

I am sorry that you misunderstood my other post. I doubt this post will be more clear, but at least I gave it a try.

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Yes, you're right, I'm confusing the names of Beric and Thoros.

I can only speak of the show and I agree that Thoros did not try to bring back Beric but there is a long way from not trying to bring him back to not knowing who or what brought Beric back in terms of his faith/other skills or influences, after all he has done it 6 times, he knows who or what is doing it, what it is he doesn't know is _why_.

As for the Red Woman, we are basically saying the same, I'd say that someone doubting her visions is by definition also doubting her faith as the two are interlinked, no point in discussing that part, it's simply a matter of definitions. We disagree on the amount of weight to put on it maybe it's a matter of show vs book differences?

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

Mostly I get the feeling that the gods in GoT aren't real at all. It's just magic in general and the various practitioners are simply attributing their different powers to higher beings that aren't really there. Who knows...

I enjoyed the first episode of season 6, but I am really not looking forward to another entire season of jedi-training for Arya, especially if we're gonna get the same thing with Bran. This whole Bravos training stuff should have been 2-3 episodes tops.

With the tentative announcement that seasons 7 and 8 will only be like 6-8 episodes each, I really feel like they need to hustle some plotlines along better! At this rate she's gonna have all these skills and maybe 1 ep to use them before show's over. Same with Danaerys' plot also. Maybe the timing of the different plotlines, combined with actor's contracts makes these things difficult.

I'm kinda lukewarm about the direction they headed with the Dorne plot, I felt like they bungled it last season and they could have steered it into some nice scheming political intrigue

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with Doran and his plans, like he could be a wheelchair version of Tywin lannister or something. I was hoping he'd find out about the assassination and have Areo Hotah slice Ellaria immediately in half with that axe.

, but instead took it in completely opposite direction. Ah well, we'll see where it goes from here. At least it's unexpected

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

I think so too tfurrows. Religion is their answer to magic. Still there might be some other worldly thing going on too. Either way the power of magic have been growing over the course of the show/books and has a much stronger presence now.

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

...With the tentative announcement that seasons 7 and 8 will only be like 6-8 episodes each, I really feel like they need to hustle some plotlines along better!...

I get the feeling that the showrunner's saying that there may be fewer than 20 shows left after this season was just the opening shots in a re-negotiations of contracts!

GoT is still growing, I am pretty sure HBO will want to keep driving a huge revenue earner like that forward. If the current production team want to move on from the project, I am sure there are plenty of others willing to step in and fill their shoes, and George RR M has shown some enthusiasm for spin-offs too.

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

tfurrows wrote:

Mostly I get the feeling that the gods in GoT aren't real at all. It's just magic in general and the various practitioners are simply attributing their different powers to higher beings that aren't really there. Who knows...

I disagree, the different practitioners appears to get their magic in widely different ways. Magic granted by a deity is just as likely as studying for it as Meisters for example. It's not rational to exclude one option when the practitioners are claiming themselves that they know where it is coming from.

tfurrows wrote:

I enjoyed the first episode of season 6, but I am really not looking forward to another entire season of jedi-training for Arya, especially if we're gonna get the same thing with Bran. This whole Bravos training stuff should have been 2-3 episodes tops.

Yeah it has been excruciating to watch, I'd preferred if they had cut her out of last season like they did with Bran.

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

Kanga wrote:

tfurrows wrote:

Mostly I get the feeling that the gods in GoT aren't real at all. It's just magic in general and the various practitioners are simply attributing their different powers to higher beings that aren't really there. Who knows...

I disagree, the different practitioners appears to get their magic in widely different ways. Magic granted by a deity is just as likely as studying for it as Meisters for example. It's not rational to exclude one option when the practitioners are claiming themselves that they know where it is coming from.

tfurrows wrote:

I enjoyed the first episode of season 6, but I am really not looking forward to another entire season of jedi-training for Arya, especially if we're gonna get the same thing with Bran. This whole Bravos training stuff should have been 2-3 episodes tops.

Yeah it has been excruciating to watch, I'd preferred if they had cut her out of last season like they did with Bran.

Are you serious? Aria is the best character in the books hands down , I wish they show her story line more and more!

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

Books are to the show as frozen mackerel to fresh lobster. Start the reading today , new book's coming soon (which in R.R. Martins term means maybe this year). I guarantee your appreciation of the show will be much more fulfilled.

Re: Season 6 Including *Spoilers*

pyrron wrote:

Books are to the show as frozen mackerel to fresh lobster. Start the reading today , new book's coming soon (which in R.R. Martins term means maybe this year). I guarantee your appreciation of the show will be much more fulfilled.

I am certainly not one to deny that books -> movies/show any day of the week however in terms of delivering the best show then Arias storyline in Bravos have been a poor choice to include, it would have been better to leave it to our imagination what actually happened inside the temple just as it have been done with Bran in his tree and for that sake also the big fellow who left to study to become a meister.

I will read the books when the show is over. I don't want to taint one experience with another.