Author
Topic: What began in Russia will end in America? (Read 7070 times)

The prophecy of the clairvoyant Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria, who in the 1930's had said: "What began in Russia will end in America" troubles me. What does everyone else think about this? Does this simply fall into the realm of private revelation?

I have heard that he meant that the persecution of Christians under a hostile government/society will one day come to America, where we are supposed to have freedom of religion. It is too general a statement to fall in the realm of private revelation, I would think. Looking at the way things are now, and the contempt American society has for traditional worship in general and orthodox Christian worship in particular, it doesn't take a huge suspension of disbelief to imagine.

Granted, the kind of persecution Christians may face in the coming decades may not escalate to martyrdom, but you can already see the stigma attached to having traditional beliefs in the workplace and at school. What with America's obsession with legislating everything, and it's even greater obsession with subjective interpretation, it's not difficult to see Christians in the near future being persecuted socially/economically for the Faith.

The prophecy of the clairvoyant Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria, who in the 1930's had said: "What began in Russia will end in America" troubles me. What does everyone else think about this? Does this simply fall into the realm of private revelation?

I wouldn't call this clairvoyance. I would just call this a possibly quite accurate assessment of where America may be headed in the not too distant future based on the trends the elder may have been able to see even then. We often tend to think that prophecy is purely divine revelation. Quite often, it's nothing more than having special insight--yes, even that is a gift from God--into the trends of the day and recognizing where they lead.

I have heard that he meant that the persecution of Christians under a hostile government/society will one day come to America, where we are supposed to have freedom of religion. It is too general a statement to fall in the realm of private revelation, I would think. Looking at the way things are now, and the contempt American society has for traditional worship in general and orthodox Christian worship in particular, it doesn't take a huge suspension of disbelief to imagine.

Granted, the kind of persecution Christians may face in the coming decades may not escalate to martyrdom, but you can already see the stigma attached to having traditional beliefs in the workplace and at school. What with America's obsession with legislating everything, and it's even greater obsession with subjective interpretation, it's not difficult to see Christians in the near future being persecuted socially/economically for the Faith.

That is quite true. I work at a restaurant and I sometimes fear I may be the only sane worker in that place.

Just looking at things happening with our fearless leader does not take a genius to realize that there are most definitely hard times ahead. A New York artist paints a mural of Obama hanging in a Christ-like crucifixion and when Obama visits Notre Dame he demands all religious symbols to be covered up.And if that is supposed to be the leader of the free world, than I would hate to see the not-so free world.

I've been reading Fr. Seraphim Rose's "Nihilism" lately. So far it has provided quite a bit of insight on how things are in this country at present.

...when Obama visits Notre Dame he demands all religious symbols to be covered up.And if that is supposed to be the leader of the free world, than I would hate to see the not-so free world.

Does anyone know something about this? Perhaps a news article, or something? This disturbs me greatly.

Afraid Bogo is giving your the NBC line. Indeed his people did have specific Christian symbols covered on the backdrop behind him (that which would be photographed). Nice dodge to state the symbol was visible elsewhere (off camera).

Why is this not in Politics?

Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

It seems that a certain group within Orthodoxy takes for granted that the Russian Revolution was some great, radial shift in Russian society. I think part of this stems from what is commonly found in English and the type of reading most Orthodox people would tend to be interested in - memoirs of the upper classes, priests, monastics etc. - opposed to academic historians or the winners of the revolution. If you look at "what began in Russia" from another point of view - nothing really changed; there was one autocracy replaced by another. The communist party replaced the Tsarist bureaucracy, Soviet religion / mythology replaced Orthodoxy as the state church of the Empire, etc. Furthermore, I reject the idea that the Russian Revolution was a propos of nothing, and that the groups persecuted by the Bolsheviks had no role in creating the conditions which caused a revolution to occur. For people to take up arms and over throw a government, there usually has to be a darn strong casus belli - that the Orthodox Church had become hopelessly entangled with the problems of the Tsarist administration proved a detriment to Christianity. Some responded like Tolstoi, others like Lenin. Hence, I am skeptical of this entire statement since I disagree with it's premise.

One thing I've really noticed about Americans since I've been back here, is how much they whine over perceived persecution. I have heard ad nauseam from members of the religious right about being persecuted because not every single teacher their kids have in school adheres to their political ideology or that they <gasp> have to share power in this political system. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find any major cases of active religious persecution by the government anywhere in the West. It's pretty silly that Americans whine about nothing while Christian missionaries face serious hardships to this day all across the globe.

Of course, if this Elder Ignatii of Harbin would just consecrate the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary Russia wouldn't spread her errors to the world.

The prophecy of the clairvoyant Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria, who in the 1930's had said: "What began in Russia will end in America" troubles me. What does everyone else think about this? Does this simply fall into the realm of private revelation?

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but my first reaction is "What is the Elder referring to?" It doesn't seem like a stand-alone sentence. Is there some context or a question that he was answering or some part of the quote before or after this sentence?

Ebor

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

It seems that a certain group within Orthodoxy takes for granted that the Russian Revolution was some great, radial shift in Russian society. I think part of this stems from what is commonly found in English and the type of reading most Orthodox people would tend to be interested in - memoirs of the upper classes, priests, monastics etc. - opposed to academic historians or the winners of the revolution. If you look at "what began in Russia" from another point of view - nothing really changed; there was one autocracy replaced by another. The communist party replaced the Tsarist bureaucracy, Soviet religion / mythology replaced Orthodoxy as the state church of the Empire, etc. Furthermore, I reject the idea that the Russian Revolution was a propos of nothing, and that the groups persecuted by the Bolsheviks had no role in creating the conditions which caused a revolution to occur. For people to take up arms and over throw a government, there usually has to be a darn strong casus belli - that the Orthodox Church had become hopelessly entangled with the problems of the Tsarist administration proved a detriment to Christianity. Some responded like Tolstoi, others like Lenin. Hence, I am skeptical of this entire statement since I disagree with it's premise.

One thing I've really noticed about Americans since I've been back here, is how much they whine over perceived persecution. I have heard ad nauseam from members of the religious right about being persecuted because not every single teacher their kids have in school adheres to their political ideology or that they <gasp> have to share power in this political system. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find any major cases of active religious persecution by the government anywhere in the West. It's pretty silly that Americans whine about nothing while Christian missionaries face serious hardships to this day all across the globe.

Of course, if this Elder Ignatii of Harbin would just consecrate the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary Russia wouldn't spread her errors to the world.

Dear Νεκτάριος,

While some of what you write is true, I doubt that the many thousands of Orthodox priests, monks, nuns and ordinary lay-people, shipped off to the gulags or brutally murdered by the communists to further the "proletarian" revolution, were all "hopelessly entangled with the problems of the Tsarist administration."

Unless, that is, you believe that Orthodoxy itself is the problem.

Also, I believe that genuine throw-em-to-the-animals persecution is indeed coming to America.

And soon.

I just don't know if it will come from a secular, left-wing dictatorship; or a right-wing "bible-believin' " (a la Cromwell) dictatorship. So far, its a close game.

BTW, At least we don't take instructions from demons masquerading as The Virgin Mary.

While some of what you write is true, I doubt that the many thousands of Orthodox priests, monks, nuns and ordinary lay-people, shipped off to the gulags or brutally murdered by the communists to further the "proletarian" revolution, were all "hopelessly entangled with the problems of the Tsarist administration."

I entirely agree. There is a very large difference between the average believer and those who actually were "hopelessly entangled with the problems of the Tsarist administration." I'd say that's still an accurate description of the Orthodox Church in Russia today - many normal and faithful believers with a hierarchy that is visibly corrupt.

While some of what you write is true, I doubt that the many thousands of Orthodox priests, monks, nuns and ordinary lay-people, shipped off to the gulags or brutally murdered by the communists to further the "proletarian" revolution, were all "hopelessly entangled with the problems of the Tsarist administration."

I entirely agree. There is a very large difference between the average believer and those who actually were "hopelessly entangled with the problems of the Tsarist administration." I'd say that's still an accurate description of the Orthodox Church in Russia today - many normal and faithful believers with a hierarchy that is visibly corrupt.

Because they don't preach the Gospel according to Tolstoy?

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

While some of what you write is true, I doubt that the many thousands of Orthodox priests, monks, nuns and ordinary lay-people, shipped off to the gulags or brutally murdered by the communists to further the "proletarian" revolution, were all "hopelessly entangled with the problems of the Tsarist administration."

I entirely agree. There is a very large difference between the average believer and those who actually were "hopelessly entangled with the problems of the Tsarist administration." I'd say that's still an accurate description of the Orthodox Church in Russia today - many normal and faithful believers with a hierarchy that is visibly corrupt.

The entire world is now participating in Mystery Babylon the Great and there is no safe nation left at all. It is perfectly clear that any of us is able to work out our own salvation wherever we find ourselves. But I am reminded of a meeting I had back in the year 2002 with somebody of like-mind in New Jersey. If I recall correctly he was only 18 years old at the time and explained to me how the old prayers were done. After talking about the decay so prevalent in our society these days he made this comment. "It is already too late, we have opened Pandora's box, only the second coming will save us now." These were sobering words coming from somebody so young. It is true the wickedness is now spewing forth in such quantities that we could not shut the lid of the box if we tried. I never heard from him again as he had enlisted to join the war in Iraq. Having warned him not to join that war all that I can say now is that I will never forget him. He had told me how his father had quit doing prayers, maybe that was part of the reason for his feeling the way he did about these things. He assured me that he did his prayers, but alone. A lot of the correspondence from that time is now gone, but I still hold out hope of meeting him again.

Logged

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

The prophecy of the clairvoyant Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria, who in the 1930's had said: "What began in Russia will end in America" troubles me. What does everyone else think about this? Does this simply fall into the realm of private revelation?

What was meant by that? What began in Russia?

JNORM888

Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

The prophecy of the clairvoyant Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria, who in the 1930's had said: "What began in Russia will end in America" troubles me. What does everyone else think about this? Does this simply fall into the realm of private revelation?

What was meant by that? What began in Russia?JNORM888

I assume that, being a Christian monk, the elder meant by "it"--"something that's against Christianity" and which started with the communist revolution. It probably refers to: a) The establishment of an atheistic regime, or b) Persecution of the Church, or c) The eventual dissolution of the Russian empire with the fall of communism (which he could have prophetically foreseen), or d) Some or all of the above.

By analogy, what will end in (by coming to) America, could be: a) The establishment of an atheistic regime, or b) Persecution of the Church, or c) The eventual dissolution of the USA, or d) Some or all of the above.

Such assumptions are on a par with guesses that it could mean something that is a positive development. Since he was in Harbin, China in the 1930s it could be a reference to a fight against the Japanese who had started taking over Manchuria in 1931. Forces in Harbin tried to defend against the Japanese troops in February of 1932, but were defeated on the 4th of that month. Furthermore the city had a strong Russian influence from it's early years. Here is an interesting link on the "Harbin Russians". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Russians

So I could just as well offer a speculation that the "thing" that was started had to do with the city itself and the eventual removal of the Japanese with the end of WWII.

Only the monk who spoke might be able to explain what he was referring to and I wonder if there is any context that has not been posted.

Ebor

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Such assumptions are on a par with guesses that it could mean something that is a positive development . . .

Given that the statement concerns Russia, and given the events there in the decade or so before the statement was made; your assumption would be correct only if the Bolshevik revolution and all that followed it (the civil war, persecution, the Living Church, Russian refugees in Harbin, etc.) were seen as positive developments by the elder.

Only the monk who spoke might be able to explain what he was referring to . . .

You forget that he could have had friends to whom he told the proper explanation of it, and who later could have spread that explanation. I know, I know, you'll say that others could have also spread false explanations, so we don't know which explanation to trust. See below.

. . . Since he was in Harbin, China in the 1930s it could be a reference to a fight against the Japanese who had started taking over Manchuria in 1931. . . .

The statement was, "what began in RUSSIA, will end in America", not, "what began in HARBIN, will end in America."

I assure you I am aware of what the monk said. I was referring to the larger picture of the Allied forces driving the Japanese out of Manchuria and other occupied areas and, in the longer run, the end of the war. It would seem that we are having a bit of a difficulty in communicating.

Such assumptions are on a par with guesses that it could mean something that is a positive development . . .

Given that the statement concerns Russia, and given the events there in the decade or so before the statement was made; your assumption would be correct only if the Bolshevik revolution and all that followed it (the civil war, persecution, the Living Church, Russian refugees in Harbin, etc.) were seen as positive developments by the elder.

I disagree. There is more happening in history and then just those things. I am attempting to take a more cautious view and consider other possibilities in the absence of any explanation or clarification from the monk in question.

Only the monk who spoke might be able to explain what he was referring to . . .

You forget that he could have had friends to whom he told the proper explanation of it, and who later could have spread that explanation. I know, I know, you'll say that others could have also spread false explanations, so we don't know which explanation to trust. See below.

I do not "forget" such things. That situation is, to use the same words that you did, a "could have" speculation. It is not the same thing as "did have". At present the statement is in a kind of vacuum that others may try to fill with ideas or speculations.

All I know is that every time I read this statement, anywhere, its always presented in the context of;

1) The rise of Communism 2) The end of the world, and 3) Russian prophecies.

Based on that evidence, (flimsy as it may be) I made my assumptions and presented them as such.

And that context would be that of the persons who are putting this statement forth to, I gather, rouse concern and negative feelings, perhaps. I am referring to the context of what the monk wrote or said at the time that the statement was made. That is the context that is most important. Words may be ripped out of context and used to purportedly say things that in truth the speaker/writer did not mean or intend. That is why wanting to know more of the situation and context is important to get to the truth of what was meant. Therefore an assertion that the monk meant something like the end of the world or the like is not the same as a clear and certain understanding of his intention and words.

Could you please explain what you have in mind when you mention 3) Russian prophecies?

Ebor

« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 09:10:17 PM by Ebor »

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Maybe we should have a poll. It almost seems that some people would welcome persecution!

Some really pushy and obnoxious fundamentalists and some grim ultra-conservative Catholics have received the ire of some ultra-liberal commentators and politicians (more often for demeanor and judgmental-ness, rather than ethical stances). There ARE cases of some bad legislation causing faith-based organizations potential difficulty in hiring practices in a few very liberal states. And that should be monitored and a low-level alert should be focused on such situations.

But for the most part our pagan neighbors have some nostalgia for their Christian past and regard us with an almost sense of whimsy for something they have lost. True, they don't want any heavy dose of morality, but who does, really. We all just have an inner hunger for the love of the Holy Trinity.

If we did a better job of tapping into that love of God and living it among our neighbors I think we would all be better off - Christians, our pagan neighbors, even politicians!

Maybe I suffer from a lack of imagination. Its just that I can't, for the life of me, picture what positive development a Russian Orthodox monk in 1930s Harbin, China could be referring to when he says, "What began in Russia, will end in America."Maybe nobody bothered to record what it was he was referring to. Or maybe they did record it, but the concluding statement got lifted out of its context. In the latter case, we may yet find a record of what the reference is to.Until then, I find it easier to believe the worst.

BrotherAidan:

I, for one, don't look forward to persecution. I get upset if I get a paper-cut! And I agree, that we need to show more love if we expect to change the world for the better. I just have a pessimistic outlook on the future. I can't help it. That's just the way I am.

I don't think that society has become so outwardly pagan (at least in the USA) that Christianity is viewed as some type of nostalgic anachronism. Go to any church (of any religion) on Sunday and you will see plenty of people in the pews. Most Americans still believe in God and choose to affiliate themselves with some type of church or religious organization. It's true that sexual morality has somewhat slipped in recent years, but from what I've heard, things weren't so rosy colored in the past in this regard as some would have us believe.

It always both amazes and disturbs me at how pessimistic some religious people (and it doesn't matter what religion) tend to be. Many of the faithful always see either persecution some end of the world scenario around every corner and spend all their time whining about it to the rest of us. Why does religion, which is generally supposed to give people comfort and hope to bear their burdens, also have this dark, moody, side to it?

BTW, I always heard that this quote was just something that used to circulate around Russian emigree circles. I had no idea that it was actualy attributed to a single author, let alone a monk.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 01:18:47 AM by Robb »

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

Maybe I suffer from a lack of imagination. Its just that I can't, for the life of me, picture what positive development a Russian Orthodox monk in 1930s Harbin, China could be referring to when he says, "What began in Russia, will end in America."

How about, what began in Russia was the idea of an atheist government, and the freedom of America ended the belief that such a government could actually work? After all didn't we "win the Cold war", hence America put an "end" to Soviet Russia? How's that for an alternative interpretation. (not that I hold to that view, but many Americans do)

Or how about this one: The Alaskan Mission BEGAN in RUSSIA, and will END when America has a true Orthodox Mission?

Or how about, this one, Russia began persecuting Jews, and with the help of America with the end of WWII, Jewish "round ups" were no longer considered viable policies in human society.

I've got another, Russia BEGAN a new and alternative Liturgical, yet fully Orthodox, tradition, and in America that Russian tradition will find it's "end" or fullfillment in the OCA?

Or.....ok maybe you get my point!

the "prophecy" is so vague that it could mean absolutely ANYTHING, and I left out some of the more controversial "possibilities" that I could envision, dealing with Church corruption etc.

It sounds more like a Nostradamus prediction than a real Biblical style prophecy to me. I'm sure the monk who said this was a holy man, who loved God, but he never the less was influenced by a certain political and world view and whatever this meant, it's about as much of a prophecy as what I'm about to say is:Someday in the future, maybe soon, maybe a 1000 years from now, the United States of America will no longer exist.

When this comes true, (and it WILL, because all Empires rise and all Empires Fall) will I be a prophet? Or just someone who learned from history?

Granted, the kind of persecution Christians may face in the coming decades may not escalate to martyrdom

'Cause not. You will just convert to Islam, like the two Fox news reporters.

"We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint," Centanni told FOX News. "Don't get me wrong here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn't know what the hell was going on."

It always both amazes and disturbs me at how pessimistic some religious people (and it doesn't matter what religion) tend to be. Many of the faithful always see either persecution some end of the world scenario around every corner and spend all their time whining about it to the rest of us. Why does religion, which is generally supposed to give people comfort and hope to bear their burdens, also have this dark, moody, side to it?

You mean people like;

The prophets, Jeremiah Joel Hosea . . .

(Heck, most of them)

The Lord Jesus Christ (see Matthew's gospel, chapter 24)

and,

St. John the Apostle. (see the book of Revelations)

Yeah, those guys could be real downers. Betchya they couldn't even sing, "Kumbaya."

Some really pushy and obnoxious fundamentalists and some grim ultra-conservative Catholics have received the ire of some ultra-liberal commentators and politicians (more often for demeanor and judgmental-ness, rather than ethical stances).

It always both amazes and disturbs me at how pessimistic some religious people (and it doesn't matter what religion) tend to be. Many of the faithful always see either persecution some end of the world scenario around every corner and spend all their time whining about it to the rest of us. Why does religion, which is generally supposed to give people comfort and hope to bear their burdens, also have this dark, moody, side to it?

There are two points of view about prophecies which are wrong.

The first is those who don't want to believe in the gift of prophecy.

The second, which is just as bad, is when some people use prophecy to get into negative emotional states.

Some will read prophecies (both biblical and post-biblical) and then get upset, disturbed, or outright depressed. That's not what prophecies are about. Paradoxically, even the most negative prophecies are ways for God to comfort us in times of affliction. They're His way of saying, "See, I knew this was going to happen beforehand. Don't fear, because I'm in charge, and I'm with you." Even the Apocalypse, the scariest book in the Bible, is ultimately a positive book. Its not, in the end, about the power of Antichrist, but about the triumph of the Church.

Others will read prophecies as an excuse to exercice their pride, arrogance, and paranoia. They judge others. They look for others to point to and say, "You are the cause of the apostasy." To them, God's prophecies say, "I know your inner self. I know who you really are. So look to your own sins, first. Do good and I'll be with you. Do evil, including pride, arrogance, and judgement, and I will be against you."

Finally, for all of us, prophecies are like an alarm-clock waking us up from a night's sleep. Its one way God rouses us from our spiritual sleep, kindles our conscience, and gets us to be more serious about our spiritual lives.

1978 Harvard address by Solzhenitsyn - what began in Russia will end here (meaning come to fulfillment). Marxism will take over democracy. The Libs and Social Revs were very upset with his speech. He dared to criticize Marxism!

The second, which is just as bad, is when some people use prophecy to get into negative emotional states.

While there is something to what you write, I would like to offer one other thought. I do not think that anyone in this thread who you might have perceived as holding a different idea on the OP or who questioned some posts "don't want to believe in the gift of prophecy". However, not every person who has claimed that gift has, in reality, had it. Some quite wild statements have been made in history that purported to be true prophecies, but they weren't. So would it be unreasonable or "not wanting to believe" if people did not just swallow any "prophecy" that came along, particularly ones that, at face value, could have more then one interpretation?

Not all prophecies are of grim or evil doings. Witness those that foretold the Birth of Jesus. But not everything that claims to be a prophecy is one, either.

With respect,

Ebor

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I do not think that anyone in this thread who you might have perceived as holding a different idea on the OP or who questioned some posts "don't want to believe in the gift of prophecy".

I wasn't talking about people in this thread, necessarily. I was speaking in general. There are people who reject all prophecies.

In fact, I was trying to find support for the posts I quoted, so as not to seem to be gullibly defending every "Tom, Dick and Harry" who claims to have a prophecy. On that topic, you make some good points further down on the above post, as well.

However, this doesn't take away from the main point I was trying to make--that the reason for prophecy is to awaken us spiritually.

BTW, here's another group of Russian prophecies. I don't remember if I posted them already.#9, "Elder Aristocles of Moscow", refers to America. This prophecy was recorded in 1911 by a Mother Barbara Tsvetkova.