No, not the non-aggression type of deal that Admetus and Ryvvn have been throwing around like candy. Something a little more serious.

(sorry for the impending info-dump, but with only two PMs a day I have to be a bit verbose for this)

Rekard's playing a bit literal with some of those rules statements. Technically, I'm not a seer (I'm a semi-complicated "Seagullian Intelligence Agent")... but unless I'm incredibly lucky I'll be getting at least a few faction-seer results that might be of use to you and the rest of the Human/????ian team.

My hope is that you'll be willing to serve as front-man to the rest of the world for my visions, as there's a bit of a multi-person cat-and-mouse game going on and revealing myself will wind up being more immediately fatal than the wolves mauling me. There's a human vigilante out there with a personal victory for finding me and putting a vig shot in my head, so if my name leaks out it'll be curtains for me (and my own personal victory condition will be voided).

What do I want in return? Two things:1) Protection/Secrecy. I need to survive until the end of the game in order to win at all, hence needing you as a front-man.2) Your help lynching my target once I find them, or at a minimum your willingness to stand aside when needed.

My victory condition involves me seering people until I find the person I'm hunting for. If I lynch that person and live until EOD I get a personal victory. I'll have no idea if they're human or wolf, and my seer results for them will simply be "You found your target!", so I won't be able to tell you if I'm looking to kill a human or not.

Some additional details:-) I count as human for parity purposes, but I only get to share the human victory if I survive and my target dies in a fashion *other* than my participating in the lynch with them. If my target and I are both alive at end-of-game, I lose.-) I can win in a Wolf Victory scenario if I've lynched my target and am one of the remaining non-Wolves.-) My seer power goes away as soon as either a) I find my target or b) my target dies (I'll get notified).-) As you might have guessed, I seered you last night. Congratulations, you're human! I'm currently planning to seer Ryvvn tonight. I do *not* want to let anyone else in on my little secret... I'm taking a big enough of a gamble on you not being my hunter already. -) I don't get to know who my hunter is, even when they die, so it might be Admetus or it might be another human vigilante out there. They can fire normally, they just lose their bonus victory if they shoot someone other than me.

If you agree, lets talk and plan!

If not, well, I guess you'll either out me publicly or are my hunter. Either way I'll have a bullet in me and won't have to worry about it.

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

Yeah, the "too convoluted" part is definitely on my mind atm. Your seeing it that way helps confirm that to me.

Edit: The convoluted part comes from trying to give myself an "Oops, no more visions" escape-hatch at end-game. Thinking about it more, I'm a freaking wolf. I can just maul Hellheart and get away from end-game problems that way.

I *do* have to wiggle around the "no seer" in the rules somehow, though. Hrm.

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

No, not the non-aggression type of deal that Admetus and Ryvvn have been throwing around like candy. Something a little more serious.

(sorry for the impending info-dump, but with only two PMs a day I have to be a bit verbose for this)

Rekard's playing a bit literal with some of those rules statements. Technically, I'm not a seer (I'm a semi-complicated "Seagullian Intelligence Agent")... Suggest you DON'T get Hellheart questioning the basic assumptions of the game. Rekard has also posted "Standard Wolf and Human factions." but unless I'm incredibly lucky I'll be getting at least a few faction-seer results that might be of use to you and the rest of the Human/????ian team.

My hope is that you'll be willing to serve as front-man to the rest of the world for my visions, as there's a bit of a multi-person cat-and-mouse game going on and revealing myself will wind up being more immediately fatal than the wolves mauling me. There's a human (why human?) vigilante out there with a personal victory for finding me and putting a vig shot in my head, so if my name leaks out it'll be curtains for me (and my own personal victory condition will be voided).

What do I want in return? Two things:1) Protection/Secrecy. I need to survive until the end of the game in order to win at all, hence needing you as a front-man.2) Your help lynching my target once I find them, or at a minimum your willingness to stand aside when needed.

My victory condition involves me seering people until I find the person I'm hunting for. If I lynch that person and live until EOD I get a personal victory. I'll have no idea if they're human or wolf, and my seer results for them will simply be "You found your target!", so I won't be able to tell you if I'm looking to kill a human or not.

Some additional details:-) I count as human for parity purposes, but I only get to share the human victory if I survive and my target dies in a fashion *other* than my participating in the lynch with them (What does this mean? Unclear). If my target and I are both alive at end-of-game, I lose.-) I can win in a Wolf Victory scenario if I've lynched my target and am one of the remaining non-Wolves. (Suggest never telling a human you can win with the wolves. Maybe reveal this later as you 'trust' Hellheart more. -) My seer power goes away as soon as either a) I find my target or b) my target dies (I'll get notified).-) As you might have guessed, I seered you last night. Congratulations, you're human! (This directly contradicts your statement above about how you won't know Human/Wolf status). I'm currently planning to seer Ryvvn tonight. I do *not* want to let anyone else in on my little secret... I'm taking a big enough of a gamble on you not being my hunter already. -) I don't get to know who my hunter is, even when they die, so it might be Admetus or it might be another human vigilante (again, Humans hunt wolves. You're subconsciously implying that you're wolf, or at least non-human) out there. They can fire normally, they just lose their bonus victory if they shoot someone other than me.

If you agree, lets talk and plan!

If not, well, I guess you'll either out me publicly or are my hunter. Either way I'll have a bullet in me and won't have to worry about it.

Final thoughts: The problem is that if you can actually get human/wolf reads then that is incredibly powerful for the humans (aka game changing) and you need to explain why you've got it. Maybe you can clean up your win condition so you only win if your target dies first. But that still doesn't explain why you get to see factions instead of roles.

On the subject of treacherous wolves:--------------------------------------------------------

Okay.

So we've got a traitor. Lets work through the possibilities.

-) If they've already dumped our entire roster minus themselves to the humans there isn't much we can do about it. We're screwed in this scenario. However, I think this is unlikely. If they passed along a full list I think Admetus would have thrown the names out into the Day thread the instant dferr flipped wolf.

So, most likely...-) Only dferr's name was handed out. This means our traitor isn't after total armageddon (yet?). They want something, and probably want control of the maul to get it.

If you come forward, maybe we can work something out where we both win? If you've got specific needs with regards to who's left alive at the end, lets talk?

If not, we're stuck. Either we spend the rest of the game in silence or we play on and hope this sorts itself out.

Regardless, we need to maul people. I'm open to suggestions here. For me, since it looks like someone protected Furin by redirecting the maul to Ryvvn I'd say a repeat is in order tonight.Maul: Furin->Zark

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

Thank you for confirming my suspicions about my teammates. I've had growing suspicions that we all weren't on the same team for quite some time. Everyone's been super-quiet despite my efforts to engage them in conversation/discussion and there have been several way-too-convenient mistakes made by players that should know better.

Based on what you've given me here and the behavior I've seen from the other wolves, I suspect I'm the token "normal" wolf to compliment the "normal" humans, here to provide the trappings of a normal wolf game. Since yours is the only faction to (indirectly) respond to the offer of negotiations I made in the wolf forum I guess you guys win my allegiance by default. If you're the conversion faction, feel like converting me so I can get a sanely achievable win condition?

On to business:

I can work with you, but I'm going to need to know at least which of my brothers-in-fur belongs to you. Otherwise we'll wind up with potential conflicts of interest on maul votes, which I imagine you're going to have an interest in influencing, if not outright controlling. I know you won't give me a full list of your faction (and I wouldn't trust it to be complete/accurate even if you did) but naming your wolf mole is going to be a requirement if we're going to work together.

And honestly, if you don't tell me I'll either figure it out on my own based on resistance to certain maul votes, extort it out of you, or betray you in the wolf forum and bribe my way into an alliance with another faction that way. Might as well save us both the grief and start this alliance off on the right foot, yes?

I don't have anything substantive to share in terms of faction breakdowns at the moment (I've been focused more on hunting traitor wolves and self-preservation), but some of the details you've provided have given me some ideas on where to look. I'll follow up with thoughts on possible signs of teamwork tomorrow once my PMs refresh (or perhaps later this evening via PMs to your wolf).

And you wound me, sir. That was absolutely real analysis/reading from Human Okaros, thank you very much.

Too much. Lets try and make that simpler.----------------

Thank you, you've confirmed a couple of my suspicions (the overall structure of the game and the nature of particular wolves) and reinforced another (the nature of the shadow game being played).

Since I'm not attached to a faction I'm open to the idea of working together, but your clever dancing about on the subject of your own team bothers me a bit.

So, rather than pushing for answers you won't give, I'll take a clear answer on something reasonable:-) Are you currently working with a traitor wolf? If so, naming them will make things much saner for both of us. Despite your trying to say otherwise, control of the maul control is key for everyone.

I'll ponder what you've said re: the nature of the various factions in play. I'll keep your existence a secret since we've both got decent mutually-assurred-destruction material, but in case you get any funny ideas please understand that I have a lot less to lose at this point than you do and am more than happy to go RaveBomb on everyone and everything if it looks like I'm about to be eliminated.

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

-) I'd have started the game out solo-) I have 2 conversions (to bring myself up to 3 players), with the option of converting whoever gets revived on a revival day.-) I can only convert every other day.

-) Unlike *your* puny conversions I don't have to worry about herd immunity. My fellow wolves were still immune, however.

-) I used one on Rictus at the start of the game. (Night 2) (need to explain why I appear to be working with Sikrit)-) I still have one left over that I can use tonight. Who'd like to join me for the win?

I can claim that Rictus and I are puppet-mastering the Sikrit faction (currently Aldax/Blind/Rictus)

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

-) I'd have started the game out solo-) I have 2 conversions (to bring myself up to 3 players), with the option of converting whoever gets revived on a revival day.-) I can only convert every other day.

-) Unlike *your* puny conversions I don't have to worry about herd immunity. My fellow wolves were still immune, however.

-) I used one on Rictus at the start of the game. (Night 2) (need to explain why I appear to be working with Sikrit)-) I still have one left over that I can use tonight. Who'd like to join me for the win?

I can claim that Rictus and I are puppet-mastering the Sikrit faction (currently Aldax/Blind/Rictus)