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00:08:14*** orudge` has joined #openttd00:08:15*** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`00:23:15 <Wolf01> 'night
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11:47:42 <crem> \o
11:48:44*** orudge` has quit IRC11:49:28*** orudge` has joined #openttd11:49:29*** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`12:11:10 <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/agLVoWW_460s.jpg lol V
12:11:48 <Wolf01> Story of your cousins XD
12:15:01*** supermop has joined #openttd12:15:18 <__ln__> to confuse things more, the name of the Slovak language in Slovak is 'slovenský jazyk'
12:15:31 <Wolf01> Ahahah
12:23:13 <crem> http://x3.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comment_2ldUGkE3ut8ScpXnyWm2fpC3nWyhDCyg.jpg12:25:04 <Alkel_U3> I was just about to post that :-)
12:28:55 <crem> I know what's the most irritating for belarusians! It's when belarus is called byelorussia (white russia) rathen than Belarus. :) Russia called Belarus properly in 1990s, and recently (last 10 years) started to call Byelorussia again.
12:31:15 <Wolf01> I shit on pasta with ketchup
12:31:23*** supermop has quit IRC12:31:53 <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aYxeLZw_700b.jpg Ha! Not a single american in US!
12:50:17*** matt11235 has joined #openttd13:24:03*** chomwitt has joined #openttd13:24:07 <Wolf01> https://xkcd.com/1799/13:34:05*** supermop_ has joined #openttd13:39:18*** supermop__ has quit IRC13:41:23*** sla_ro|master has quit IRC13:48:44*** sim-al2 has joined #openttd13:56:00*** supermop has joined #openttd14:01:24*** Arveen2 has joined #openttd14:06:31*** Arveen has quit IRC14:37:40 <supermop_> yo
14:37:41*** tycoondemon2 has quit IRC15:01:28*** sim-al2 has quit IRC15:10:18*** iSoSyS has joined #openttd15:10:50*** tokai has quit IRC15:14:33*** tokai has joined #openttd15:14:34*** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai15:29:05*** iSoSyS has quit IRC15:46:02*** Sova has quit IRC16:01:16*** Alberth has joined #openttd16:01:16*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth16:01:24 <Alberth> hi hi
16:04:53 <Wolf01> o/
16:05:27 <crem> \o
16:09:20*** frosch123 has joined #openttd16:19:45*** Wormnest has joined #openttd16:21:35 <Wolf01> Quak
16:22:00 <frosch123> moi
16:38:15*** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC16:39:52*** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd16:42:31*** maciozo has joined #openttd16:45:12*** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd16:51:09*** TheMask96 has quit IRC16:57:58*** TheMask96 has joined #openttd17:07:50*** andythenorth has joined #openttd17:08:53*** smoke_fumus has quit IRC17:09:03 <andythenorth> o/
17:23:33 <Alberth> o/
17:24:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: for industry creation during game, did you try anything like ‘just build 1 new industry per year’?
17:24:58 <andythenorth> i.e. increasing beyond the quota
17:30:16 <Alberth> in openttd source code?
17:30:36 <andythenorth> yes
17:30:50 <Alberth> iirc it's smaller, 5 / decade, except a more weird number than 5
17:31:20 <andythenorth> most of my games are 20-30 years, with no closures
17:31:20 <Alberth> it can be smaller, if industries die a lot, it stop adding new industries
17:31:32 <andythenorth> and very very rarely do I see an industry added to the map
17:32:00 <andythenorth> one route would be to fix it in GS
17:32:06 <andythenorth> but I don’t think that’s quite right
17:32:25 <Alberth> what do you want to fix?
17:32:52 <Alberth> 350t iron ore / month :o so much
17:33:14*** orudge` has quit IRC17:33:26*** orudge` has joined #openttd17:33:27*** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`17:34:29 <Alberth> (380, 400) -> (115, 280) that's pretty much half the map, at 88km/h :p
17:41:31 <Alberth> andythenorth: line 2095 industry_cmd.cpp
17:41:31 <Alberth> static const int NEWINDS_PER_MONTH = 0x38000 / (10 * 12); // lower 16 bits is a float fraction, 3.5 industries per decade, divided by 10 * 12 months.
17:41:40 <Alberth> per 256x256
17:43:04 <Wolf01> Bah... I'm using stud.io to build an airport with a friend... that software has too many bugs and inconsistencies that make it a pain to use :(
17:47:54*** glx has joined #openttd17:47:54*** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx17:49:54*** iSoSyS has joined #openttd17:51:48 <andythenorth> 3.5 eh
17:51:56 <andythenorth> that chimes with my experience
17:52:09 <andythenorth> I usually play 256x256 or so
17:52:19 * andythenorth probably has very different game to ‘most people’ :)
17:55:43 <andythenorth> what was the ‘half the map’ thing? o_O
18:10:59*** orudge` has quit IRC18:11:26*** orudge` has joined #openttd18:11:27*** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`18:15:07 <Alberth> andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/steeltown2b.png18:15:34 <Alberth> 350 t/month iron ore, in 1905, IH
18:15:42 <andythenorth> big goals
18:15:48 * andythenorth has a smaller map :P
18:15:56 <Alberth> you made the mine :p
18:16:08 <andythenorth> yeah, I needed more iron ore
18:16:14 <Alberth> :D
18:16:16 <andythenorth> is that the default (1x) production?
18:16:20 <Alberth> yes
18:16:36 <andythenorth> that’s the upper end of the range
18:16:43 <andythenorth> 160t is more common :)
18:18:00 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/thomson_co_1905_04_18.sav18:18:25 <Alberth> hmm, the other two are 90 and 135 t/m
18:18:49*** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd18:18:55 <andythenorth> the random range might be too wide
18:18:56 <andythenorth> not sure
18:19:05 <Alberth> I didn't check the amounts, but by the time I was finished adding trains, all trains of the first one had already left :)
18:19:30 <Alberth> oh, it's fun :)
18:19:41 <Alberth> filled tracks with long trains
18:19:59 <andythenorth> it would not be a good choice with IH Antelope
18:20:05 <andythenorth> which has small capacity, long wagons :P
18:20:09 <andythenorth> very very long trains :P
18:20:42 <Alberth> the track to the far left does something similar, although production is more sane
18:20:58 <Alberth> I don't have Antelope, is that a new engine?
18:21:09 <Alberth> or a newer version perhaps
18:21:30 <Alberth> IH 1.9.1
18:21:46 <andythenorth> it’s not in the released versions
18:21:50 <andythenorth> very WIP
18:22:01 <andythenorth> so many unfinished things :)
18:22:12 <Alberth> big bertha is quite useless, nice horsepower but not fast enough at this distance
18:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't big bertha a cannon?
18:22:43 <Alberth> no, it's an engine
18:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicke_Bertha18:24:29 <andythenorth> it’s also a cannon
18:24:45 <andythenorth> ‘also’ due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR_0-10-0_Lickey_Banker18:25:39 <andythenorth> I am going to rebalance IH, I am playing a test version right now
18:25:49 <andythenorth> freight trains are seriously too fast :)
18:35:44 <supermop_> i very quickly seem to go from 6 tile freight is too long, to not nearly big enough
18:36:02 <supermop_> but line capacity won't allow much bigger than 7 or 8
18:36:43*** iSoSyS has quit IRC18:38:01 <andythenorth> I have same
18:38:11 <andythenorth> start with TL6, then 8, 10 or 12
18:38:16 <andythenorth> and more platforms
18:38:21 <andythenorth> network is overwhelmed fast
18:39:58 <supermop_> nice looking junctions have trouble handling the stream of 8TL freights coming through every 10 days
18:39:59 <andythenorth> I should make an IH roster with 40, 70, 100t wagons
18:40:09 <andythenorth> at max 8/8 lengths :P
18:40:14 <supermop_> hampers mixed use lines a bit
18:40:39 * andythenorth doesn’t even have any :P
18:40:55 <andythenorth> I have started a new SV, and have built the main spine route with canals instead
18:41:05 <andythenorth> which is weird and lame, but I’ll never get gold otherwise
18:41:59*** orudge` has quit IRC18:42:24 <supermop_> i still keep trying to run passengers and freight on the same double tack as long as i can
18:42:26*** orudge` has joined #openttd18:42:27*** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`18:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that always results in me only focusing on passengers and neglecting freight
18:44:25 <supermop_> need night time
18:46:35 <supermop_> andy, this code you gave me, i can just adapt into a regular nml file, right?
18:46:54 <supermop_> i don't necessarily need to do any python magic to it
18:51:14 <supermop_> hmm what to call the harbor roadways?
18:51:36 <supermop_> cobble road or roadway sounds like a regular road or street
18:51:50*** orudge` has quit IRC18:52:03*** orudge` has joined #openttd18:52:03*** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`18:52:33 <supermop_> does 'driveway' make sense?
18:55:06 <Alberth> andy: I wouldn't know if freight trains are too fast, it's all I do :)
19:02:47 <andythenorth> it causes balancing issues
19:03:05 <andythenorth> if the basic idea is that there are fast pax engines and slower more powerful freight engines....
19:03:17 <andythenorth> when they are too similar, it introduces a boring choice
19:03:29 <andythenorth> I am attempting to be the enemy of boring choices :)
19:04:14 <andythenorth> supermop: you’ll need a grf header block, but that RH code is vanilla nml yes, no python in it
19:04:35 <andythenorth> I copied it from the nml example grf for NRT :)
19:22:59 <andythenorth> hmm
19:23:09 <andythenorth> when would ottd _ideally_ build new industries?
19:25:42*** FLHerne has joined #openttd19:26:04*** ConductCat has quit IRC19:29:16 <Alberth> when you need them
19:29:32 <andythenorth> that heuristic is hard to manage :)
19:29:59 <Alberth> depends, you can check what industries you play with, and where
19:30:21 <Alberth> you can check how you connect industries
19:30:42 <Alberth> there should be a lot of information in what you do in the game, I think
19:30:59 <Alberth> but I agree it's not trivial to find information
19:31:14 <supermop_> 'yard' instead of 'roadway'?
19:31:31 <Alberth> another point is of course, if you connect only coal mines, should the game supply you with even more?
19:31:50 <Alberth> ie how is that balanced wrt newgrf author wishes?
19:32:13 <Alberth> for me, a yard is a weird unit of length, or a garden :p
19:32:33 <andythenorth> heuristics are hard :)
19:32:47 <andythenorth> maybe you didn’t connect any coal mines because they’re all in the wrong place
19:32:51 <supermop_> Alberth: what if trucks are driving around on your garden?
19:32:53 <andythenorth> so maybe you really want a coal mine
19:33:26 <Alberth> could be, in theory you can analyze that too
19:33:30*** gelignite has joined #openttd19:33:39 <Alberth> along with speed of trains, the terrain etc etc
19:34:10 <Alberth> supermop_: I'd like to see them do that, as I have no such thing :)
19:35:53 <Alberth> but you're asking about USA names and we have very little clue about meaning of USA names, mostly
19:36:37 <Alberth> andy, but if you specify some sort of preferences, it could work from that
19:37:23 <supermop_> any sort of name at all.
19:37:54 <supermop_> like what to call the big paved part of a port where trucks and forklifts drive around
19:38:20 <andythenorth> Alberth: although I am -1 to settings generally, seems like control over industry construction (and maybe closure) might be an openttd thing
19:38:27 <andythenorth> it’s not a case that newgrf can solve
19:38:36 <supermop_> 'paved road' sounds like a road
19:38:53 <supermop_> 'pavement' sounds like, not a road
19:38:54 <andythenorth> it’s a very highly specific thing for GS to solve, and a distortion of GS as a goals framework
19:39:05 <supermop_> so user might not understand
19:39:38 <andythenorth> Close industries: “never” | “random chance if unserviced for x years”
19:40:22 <andythenorth> Open industries: “never” | “random chance every x years (favour highly served types)” | “random chance every x years (favour under-served types)"
19:40:24 <andythenorth> dunno
19:54:49 <Alberth> I agree newgrf can't solve it, it doesn't have enough knowledge, or coding it is too complicated
19:55:03 <Alberth> so openttd or a GS would be better
19:55:27 <Alberth> I also believe openttd is in a much better position to request closure
19:55:43 <Alberth> but euhm, somebody blocked that in the newgrf spec :p
19:56:02 <Alberth> until we make an extension on the extension, or something
19:57:20 <Alberth> I don't think people have much trouble with opening, that is, until you open too many, I guess
19:57:34 <Alberth> but people do not like closing
19:57:50 <Alberth> likely they don't serve the industry well enough
19:58:35 <Alberth> I had the problem a few times that I was setting up a connection, and it died on me, yep it happens, generally not a big deal, unless it's very early in the game
19:58:36 <andythenorth> a newgrf major version bump would be a reason to remove closure control from newgrf :P
19:58:48 <andythenorth> newgrf doesn’t need to forbid closure
19:59:04 <andythenorth> oh, eh, there are people who want to force closure in newgrf though :(
19:59:17 <Alberth> afaik, newgrf has the final word
19:59:24 <andythenorth> it does
19:59:28 <andythenorth> addon specs are a minefield
19:59:32 <andythenorth> ‘here be dragons'
19:59:35 <andythenorth> never write an API :P
19:59:54 <Alberth> some people think you can solve global problems in a local way, and get a good result :(
20:00:33 <Alberth> or they are afraid players may play in a different way than they do, or so
20:00:34 <andythenorth> ‘forbid closure’ would have looked like a logical option for the cb at the time it was written
20:00:45 <andythenorth> it’s hard to design a future proof API :)
20:00:55 <Alberth> yes, don't try it
20:01:28 <Alberth> instead make it possible to remove the api when it has fulfilled its evolutionary role
20:02:35 <andythenorth> does a version bump do that?
20:02:43 <Alberth> hmm, can't we add a lower/upper version to each api, just like the data saved in a savegame has a lower and upper version number where it is valid
20:02:44 <andythenorth> old grfs carry on working as expected :P
20:03:08 <andythenorth> it add conditional jank in openttd though eh?
20:03:18 <andythenorth> if grfversion > 8 (stuff) or so :)
20:03:26 <Alberth> hmm, rewrite old newgrf to new standard :p
20:03:35 <Alberth> yeah, it explodes somewhat
20:03:47 <Alberth> but game version conversion does that too
20:04:20 <supermop_> what if i try to drive a trolleybus on ROAD+ELRL?
20:04:41 <andythenorth> no dice
20:04:44 <supermop_> it isn't specifically ELRD
20:04:55 <andythenorth> what compatibility have you set?
20:05:10 <andythenorth> if ELRL is a tramtype label, it’s literally ignored for the road vehicle and vice versa
20:05:15 <supermop_> i guess thats realistic bc trolleybus need two trolleywires
20:05:43 <andythenorth> realism or not, connecting the labels for the two route types together is a fast trolleyride to madness :)
20:06:00 <supermop_> setting electric road types to be powered on each other but not electric tram types
20:06:03 <Alberth> ha, pig iron has different colour in different wagons, I see
20:06:25 <supermop_> Alberth: gets rusty faster in some wagons?
20:06:53*** Gja has joined #openttd20:07:07 <Alberth> only if rusty pig iron is more white-ish :)
20:07:11 <andythenorth> that might be an accident :)
20:07:28 <andythenorth> I haven’t really supported it yet
20:07:30*** ZirconiumX has quit IRC20:08:48 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/pig_iron_colours.png20:09:05 <Alberth> oh, it's fine, just unexpected
20:09:22 <andythenorth> default (fallback) cargo sprites
20:09:27 <andythenorth> boxes + tarpaulins
20:09:27 <Alberth> variation in shape and colour is always nice
20:10:03 <Alberth> 1.9.1 is also pre steeltown, probably
20:10:16 <Alberth> no wonder it doesn't know about it :)
20:10:43 <andythenorth> yup
20:14:04 * andythenorth builds canals such https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lawrence_Seaway20:16:35 <Alberth> 225m, that's long :)
20:16:58 <Alberth> works at a smaller map
20:20:56 <andythenorth> ach, these square cornered canals :)
20:21:00 <andythenorth> ugly
20:22:09 <Alberth> didn't planet maker have better canal sprites?
20:22:20 <Alberth> or were they river sprites perhaps?
20:23:09 <Alberth> but indeed, we're quite stuck with the grid world
20:27:49 <Alberth> bleh, train moving uphill @ 2km/h :(
20:28:08 <Wolf01> Add more engines :P
20:30:42*** iSoSyS has joined #openttd20:33:20 <andythenorth> there is opengfx water features
20:33:24 <andythenorth> better canals, worse rivers :)
20:35:11 <Alberth> I know it needs more engines
20:35:31 <Alberth> more powerful horses wouldbe simpler :p
20:36:58 <Alberth> but at least it explains why my cargo isn't being moved :)
20:37:35 <andythenorth> what do you have for freight weight multiplier setting? o_O
20:37:36*** ConductorCat has joined #openttd20:37:55 <Alberth> apparently, andy has heavy goods, unlike default goods :)
20:38:16 <Alberth> 6
20:38:35 <andythenorth> ha
20:38:45 <andythenorth> that used to be a recommended default with NARS and such
20:38:57 <andythenorth> I have 1 :)
20:39:10 <andythenorth> I should put that in the docs :P
20:39:14 <Alberth> ah, 6x as long trains :p
20:39:50 <Alberth> "author plays with freight multiplier 1, you must do the same" :)
20:41:00 <Alberth> oh, 4-4-2 is reliable now, could use that one instead
20:41:03 <andythenorth> “author tests with 1” :P
20:41:14 <Alberth> :)
20:41:24 <andythenorth> tbh, the TE and HP are already about twice reality
20:41:44 <andythenorth> the 6 setting was the advice for American train sets where people want 5 or 6 engines on a train
20:42:00 <Alberth> hmm, less TE, not good
20:42:33 <Alberth> yeah, 6 is just sort of random
20:42:35 <andythenorth> what year are you in?
20:42:46 <Alberth> no special purpose of ideas behind it
20:42:54 <Alberth> 1909
20:43:25 <andythenorth> there should be an Aberdare, 2 of those are usually quite good
20:43:27 <Alberth> 2-6-0 exists too, but only 85%
20:43:47 <andythenorth> does reliability increase if you run more instances of the train?
20:44:15 * andythenorth can’t remember
20:44:24 <Alberth> no, but it goes up in time, and then down again
20:44:38 <andythenorth> I projected a non-existent cause
20:44:39 <andythenorth> :P
20:44:40 <Alberth> at first it was around 64%, which is horrible
20:44:45 <andythenorth> been years since I had breakdowns on
20:46:24 <Alberth> it's faster and slightly more powerful, a bit of reliability reduction likely won't be that bad
20:50:00 <Alberth> slag transport is a mess, can't keep up with the new iron ore production raise :)
21:00:39 <andythenorth> nope
21:00:56 <andythenorth> it’s over-produced, the ratio is 50:50
21:01:02 <andythenorth> should be more like 75:25
21:01:08 <andythenorth> needs new FIRS code
21:02:39 <Alberth> oh, any amount is good, just needs more trains :p
21:02:55 <Alberth> and a more dedicated line for it
21:05:03 <andythenorth> ships :)
21:09:23 <Alberth> nah, less fun :)
21:09:42 <Alberth> I like restructuring railway tracks to smoothen traffic
21:10:14 <andythenorth> maybe I should stop using SV for a bit
21:10:24 <andythenorth> it creates focus on ‘win’ :)
21:10:53 <Alberth> big ore mines, and over-production of slag is good, it causes chaos in the network that needs to be fixed
21:11:34 <Alberth> default industries are a bit better at that, as their production rises :p
21:13:52 <supermop_> sprites start at the top left, right?
21:14:02 <andythenorth> yes
21:15:56*** orudge` has quit IRC21:16:42*** orudge` has joined #openttd21:16:43*** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`21:20:10 <andythenorth> am I the only irritated by train lengths that are not x.0?
21:21:38*** frosch123 has quit IRC21:23:36 * andythenorth ponders making all wagons 4/8 and 8/8
21:24:41 <supermop_> wait - its the x,y of the first pixel in the sprite, or how many pixels it is from the origin?
21:25:14 <supermop_> like if there is 10px whitespace from the edges, it would be 11,11 right?
21:25:21 <supermop_> andythenorth: yes a little
21:25:47 <supermop_> non integer trains look better but are annoying
21:26:09 <andythenorth> supermop_: zero-indexd, so 10,10 if it’s 10px whitespace
21:26:11 <andythenorth> also bed
21:26:19 <supermop_> ok
21:26:20*** andythenorth has quit IRC21:26:22 <supermop_> later
21:33:25 <Alberth> nn
21:34:07*** Alberth has left #openttd21:35:58*** sim-al2 has joined #openttd21:43:58*** andythenorth has joined #openttd21:44:23*** andythenorth has left #openttd21:46:33*** gelignite has quit IRC21:54:20*** matt11235 has quit IRC23:00:31 <supermop_> why are there junction underlays templated for in bridge surfaces?
23:02:44*** Long_yanG has quit IRC23:04:13*** maciozo has quit IRC23:08:49*** LongyanG has joined #openttd23:10:34*** Gja has quit IRC23:10:54*** Wormnest has quit IRC23:11:57*** JezK has joined #openttd23:14:19 <Wolf01> <supermop_> why are there junction underlays templated for in bridge surfaces? <- who knows?
23:15:59*** markasoftware has joined #openttd23:17:00 <supermop_> im going to ignore for now
23:19:05 <supermop_> hmm i need to figure out a better way that repeating this huge set of templating each time for each pavement type
23:19:33 <supermop_> like, redo all that previous stuff but for y.png instead of x.png
23:20:21 <supermop_> or, maybe i can put all the sprite related stuff into a separate nml file for each one? idk how that stuff works
23:22:49*** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd23:29:06*** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC23:33:55*** Stimrol has quit IRC23:35:05 <Wolf01> Maybe andy could help you, he used some templating and recolouring script for unsinkable sam
23:37:43 <supermop_> possibly, but i think he's busy enough without lending charity to my ill-conceived projects
23:38:01 <supermop_> ok going home
23:48:38*** skapazzo has quit IRC23:56:28 <supermop> now I'm home