Live chat with Annabel Lyon, author of The Golden Mean and The Sweet Girl

Join the Vancouver Sun’s book club for a chat with author Annabel Lyon

The Sweet Girl, by New Westminster's Annabel Lyon - shown at Jericho Beach in Vancouver - is the followup to her acclaimed novel The Golden Mean.

Photograph by: Stuart Davis, PNG
, Vancouver Sun

The Vancouver Sun’s book club discussed Annabel Lyon’s new novel The Sweet Girl, a follow up to The Golden Mean.

Annabel Lyon: Hi, everyone! Thanks for having me to this chat.

Penguin: The strengths of character that Pythias develops appears to be those of Artemis. Was this your intention?

Melanie Jackson: Hi Annabel! I so enjoyed your book. This is your second novel to take place in Ancient Greece. What appeals to you (and not) about Ancient Greece? If you could schedule a vacation there, at one point, or during what event, would that be?

Annabel Lyon: Thanks, Melanie! I was really drawn to Aristotle first and foremost, his intellect, and then I was stuck with the fact that he happened to be an ancient Greek - it was the philosophy that drew me first, the history second. But after I finished writing The Golden Mean, I knew my project was only half-finished. That was such a male book, but I wanted to look at the female world also. I have been to Greece, to Athens and then a little north, to Chalcis, where most of The Sweet Girl is set. (It was a research trip). I'd go there again in a heartbeat.

Annabel Lyon: I really wanted to show her as being caught between two worlds: the rationalism of her father, and the god and goddesses and kitchens and slaves of the traditional female world. Ultimately, she chooses to break away from the latter world. So she does have some qualities of Artemis--the strength and so on--but I wanted these to be more human than superhuman.

Daphne Wood: Hi Annabel - looking forward to discussing your book today. Among our book club members we all shared our favourite scenes...do you have a favourite scene in this novel or one that resonates with you the most?

Annabel Lyon: That's a tough one, Daphne! In The Golden Mean it was definitely the description of Aristotle's infant daughter, because that was really a description of my own infant daughter. In The Sweet Girl, it's not so much particular scenes as tiny details that I was able to incorporate - the enormous speculum Pythias carries around is in a case in the Archeological Museum in Athens, for instance, and the spiny burnet they use for packing breakables is referred to by archeologists as the "bubble wrap of the ancient world" for this very reason. Those little details are what I loved most this time around.

Monique Sherrett: Hi Annabel, having been to Greece as well, and to some of the antiquities museums, I really loved the little details in the novel, in particular the natural packaging material--ancient bubble wrap. And I really liked the male vs. female angle of the two novels. They work really well together. Such enjoyable reads.

Melanie Jackson: Annabel, Tracy mentioned this in an article about you, and I have to say I'm curious, too: The cover illo of Pythias looks so much like you! Was this intentional by the publisher and designer?

Annabel Lyon: People tell me they see a resemblance, to which I always respond: I should be so lucky! She looks like Natalie Portman to me. No, I don't think there was anything intentional there. That was their third shot at a cover. The first one was a girl swimming, which was pretty but not super relevant to the book, and the second was a stone engraving of a toddler holding a bird. This one felt the most relevant to the content of the book.

Trevor Battye: I really loved the way you write dialogue, it really kept the book moving at a great pace, which really held my interest over the course of the book any advice or tips for other writers on writing dialogue?

Annabel Lyon: Tips on dialogue: always, always, always read it aloud. That's my first instruction to students. If it doesn't sound natural aloud, it's not going to read like natural dialogue. I also encourage students to make the dialogue do the work, and not rely on what are known as dialogue tags (she shouted menacingly, that kind of thing). Those are like stage directions, and for me they dilute the power of the line itself. And finally, in historical fiction, make sure your characters still sound like real people. I don't think "Zounds, my liege, thou hast verily captured it" is nearly as good as "You got it," even if you're working with ancient characters.

Ian Weir: I'm always fascinated by the design process. How directly were you involved?

Annabel Lyon: I try to stay out of the design process, mostly, because I'm not trained in that area and I'm not a very visual person; I can't explain why things do or don't work visually, for me, so I really am more comfortable trusting the experts. That said, if I really don't like a cover, I'll say so; but there are so many technical considerations (how well does it show in a bookstore, can you recognize it from a distance, etc.) that I really do prefer to leave those calls to the experts.

Melanie Jackson: You also write young-adult books. Do you find that you draw on different parts of your personality or perspectives when writing for adults as opposed to writing for children?

Annabel Lyon: Writing for young people is a definite change of pace, for me, from writing for adults. It's faster and more fun. I don't want to say easier, because considerations like a good structure and quality of prose and so on remain the same. But there's something a little more joyful, for me, in writing for younger people. You can be a little bit more of a goof.

Daphne Wood: There was a heart-wrenching account of the burial of newborns (those who died of natural causes, and others...) with a puppy. You described litters of puppies kept at the midwives' home for this purpose. Was this also an historical tidbit, or an example of your powerfully evocative fiction?

Annabel Lyon: The puppies: yes, this was something I learned about on my trip to Greece. I was fortunate to travel with a university class from Carleton and U Winnipeg (I made friends with some academics, who let me tag along), and one of the things we got to do was learn about the work of Maria Liston, who teaches at Waterloo and also works at the American School in Athens. I joke that she could be the star of CSI: Ancient Athens, because her work focuses on things like bone remains. She can look at a bone and tell you what it is, how the person died, etc. She told us about her research into the remains of babies found in wells with puppies, and concluded that these were drops midwives used for babies who hadn't survived. The puppies were one of those touches that was so bittersweet: awful, and yet you could imagine someone grieving the baby's death and (in their belief system) wanting to send something cuddly with them, to keep them company. You can't invent this stuff! And of course, as a fiction writer, you can't pass it up either. I got her permission to use this.

Monique Sherrett: I suppose a naked young girl on the cover would have been even more controversial than the first Golden Mean cover that was banned on BC Ferries. That was some great "off the book" pages coverage. Anything out of the ordinary in how The Sweet Girl has been received?

Annabel Lyon: Monique, I actually suggested the back of a naked girl sitting up on a horse (since this is a slightly more optimistic book!), but they wouldn't go for it.... No, nothing too out of the ordinary in the reception of this cover / book. I'd say to all authors out there, if you can get a bare bum on your cover, go for it - controversy is good for sales!

Ian Weir: Not one's own, surely??

Melanie Jackson: Ian, I will watch for the cover of your next book with great interest.

Ian Weir: Ha!!

Annabel Lyon: Alas, Ian, not my own. No one want to see that! :)

Monique Sherrett: Annabel Lyon uses butt double for back jacket of The Sweet Girl--can't you see the headlines now! Tracy get on it.

Daphne Wood: Following up on your comment about Aristotle's infant daughter (a description of your own infant daughter) - was anyone an inspiration for Pythias as an older child in The Sweet Girl? Or did she develop on her own (with help from the author of course ;)

Annabel Lyon: There was no direct inspiration for 16-year-old Pythias except, maybe me remembering what it was like to be 16; though she's a lot more together than I was. (She's off running a household and delivering babies and dealing with gods and goddesses, whereas I was watching The Cosby Show and fighting with my brother about who got the front seat....)

Daphne Wood: Well - dealing with gods and goddesses is great training for the battle for the front seat - appealing to the high priestess (aka mom) with empty promises...if that doesn't work, there's always pushing, shoving and hissing threats at siblings. I suspect Pythias would be a 'front seat' kind of girl - she has spirit!

Melanie Jackson: Annabel, here is a question I bet you get from your students all the time, so apologies -- do you prepare an outline of your novel, and then write it, or do you.

Annabel Lyon: I do outline, Melanie, and I encourage my students working in longer forms (ie. novel, not necessarily short story) to do the same. (I realize I keep referring to my students; I should explain that I teach in the Creative Writing program at UBC). I'm naturally pretty comfortable with the short story length, but not nearly so comfortable with the novel; it's so easy to get lost and discouraged and give up. What an outline does is break the big narrative down into smaller, more manageable chunks. It's harder to get discouraged when you know exactly where you are and what you have to do and you can jump right in to the writing.

Ian Weir: Does the outline stand up over the telling for you, or do you end in going to unexpected destinations?

Annabel Lyon: I've worked from outlines four times now (two adult novels, two children's novels) and the process has stood up every time. Mind you, I cling to my outlines by the teeth like a pit bull; I don't let myself deviate. If I have a great idea that would take me off in an utterly different direction, I make a note of it and promise myself I'll explore it in the next draft. But I'm really rigid about finishing each draft as planned. Word quotas and everything. There's a better word for it than rigid, but not in polite company.

Annabel Lyon: The other thing I'd say about outlines is that I do many, many drafts, and the thing can change dramatically from one draft to the next; and then yet again when I get my editor's input. So I feel there's a lot of flexibility to the process, even in the strict way I've described it. And the other thing it allows me to do is leave one scene as a sketch and move forward to the next, so that I get a big picture of the whole novel much earlier than people who have to "writer their way forward".

Melanie Jackson: Annabel, what is it you like about writing in the present tense, as opposed to the past? I do find your writing style very fresh and clear. Obviously most of that is your lovely talent, but I'm wondering if the present tense is a part of that freshness and clarity as well.

Annabel Lyon: I actually started writing The Golden Mean in 3rd person past tense - he did this, he went there, he saw that - and it was dead on the page. As soon as I put it into 1st person present - I do this, I go there, I see that - it came alive for me. And it got me around the difficulty of naming him, also, which I really didn't want to do. I continued in that voice for The Sweet Girl because I wanted there to be a consistency between the two books (in my mind they're almost one big book) and because I like shocking people a little with the modern sound of the prose. Hilary Mantel does something similar, and it really makes her characters spring to life, for me; you could imagine being in a room with them.

Ian Weir: That's fascinating about first person present bringing it to life. Your work has such a glorious intimacy --which is something one sees less-than-always (!) in historical fiction. Do you see yourself continuing in an historical vein, or going more contemporary?

Monique Sherrett: Finding a routine for writing is key. Mine is more business writing but the outline really works for me too. Any other writing routines or things that help with writing? It strikes me that your writing is really polished and accomplished. Natural talent aside, what do you work on or try to refine through that process?

Annabel Lyon: Thanks for your question about routine, Monique. I'm not a big believer in the Romantic image of the writer--alone, suffering, pirate blouse in a garret somewhere, waiting for the muse. It's a job, and I treat it like a job: dress professionally, go to the office, do your work. You wouldn't procrastinate relentlessly if you were a lawyer or doctor or drywaller or barrista, and you shouldn't let yourself do that as a writer, either. I like to compare creative writing to journalism, partly because my dad was a journalist, but partly also because there's a huge overlap between the skill sets. A good non-fiction sentence and a good fiction sentence have a lot in common. A good opening to a short story and a good lede in a news story are playing on a lot of the same principles. And, similarly, I believe strongly that good creative writing can be taught, just as journalism can be taught. Inspiration, no, but craft, yes.

Melanie Jackson: Your description of outlining reminds me of Hitchcock and his storyboards. Once he had them mapped out, he stuck to them -- and maintained that the real work was over. He could just enjoy himself with the actual filming. Do you find that the hard part is the outline, and the writing is then relatively easy, maybe like a catharsis?

Annabel Lyon: The outline is something like storyboarding in screen, yes - that's a good way to think of it. Though it's not the hardest part, no. The outline might take a couple of weeks. The writing takes years.

Melanie Jackson: Oops, you may have answered my last question. But I guess it would apply to the outline you finally decide on: Do you find the writing then -- at last -- flows easily?

Annabel Lyon: Writing never flows easily. I'm a slow, painful writer. But I find things are rarely as bad as I think they are, and rarely as good. If I feel like I've had an amazing writing day and I'm on fire, the next day I'll read it over and think, meh. But similarly, if I'm in the dumps and feel like I might as well give up and make myself write 200 words anyway, there's usually something salvageable there the next day. Persistence is really key, for me, and understanding that writing isn't a performing art; you get more than one shot at it. You can revise over and over until you've got what you want.

Monique Sherrett: Related to Golden Mean as a male world and The Sweet Girl as a female world, I'm participating in The Shoebox Project this year, where you put together a shoebox of gifts that are delivered to women in shelters. I felt that Pythias' story was a good survival story, or at least showed how you need to keep your wits about you even when the world seems against you. So it's included in my shoebox. www.shoeboxproject.com

Annabel Lyon: I feel like I'm done with historical fiction for a while, ancient Greece anyway. I have a couple of projects in mind--one for children, one for adults--both set in contemporary Vancouver.

Melanie Jackson: I look forward to your next project, Annabel. But keep in mind that Hilary Mantel switched to Cromwell after writing about another period, the French Revolution. So you may go back in time again one day!

Ian Weir: It's not kindness -- just pure, gushing fan-dom!

Trevor Battye: So what are some favorite places to write?

Annabel Lyon: Favourite places to write: I've taught myself to write pretty much anywhere, and cram it into the available time (that's what having kids will do for you). I can work in a coffee shop, on transit, airplanes, etc. But my preference is a quiet room with natural light and a door I can close. I use a laptop.

Tracy Sherlock: Transit! Sounds awkward.

Annabel Lyon: Transit is awkward. But the material..... Ah, the priceless material. The 99 is great, and then for the connoisseurs there's the 22.

Ian Weir: When can we expect the next novel on the shelves?

Annabel Lyon: I'm working on a children's chapter book (so a younger audience than the 9-13 Edie books I've already published). It's an interesting challenge. You go into a project like that thinking your obligation is to be cute and have, I don't know, talking penguins, and then you realize it's very technical writing, all about vocabulary levels and syntax. It's close to poetry, in many ways; you have so few words, and so many restrictions. It's a lot of fun, though. It's about an angry librarian. That's all I'll say for now!

Trevor Battye: Angry Librarian! That sounds great!

Daphne Wood: An angry librarian...? (That's a great character - I hope she is noisy and disturbs everyone in the library with her shenanigans...we librarians get an unfair reputation for being too quiet. Can't wait for this one!)

Tracy Sherlock: Thank you so much for joining us Annabel - all the best to you and your books!

Annabel Lyon: Thanks so much, everyone! I've had a lot of fun, and again I'm so grateful for your kinds words. We writers try to put on a brave face, but knowing readers respond to what you're doing is truly the greatest reward.

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