In The Case Of The World Vs Merkel, The Broke Prosecution Proposes Eurobonds Lite

The battle fronts have been drawn out: it is literally the world against Germany.

What is happening in Europe is nothing short of a full-out onslaught to have Germany, which conventional wisdom says benefited from a decade of importing peripheral European prosperity (although conventional wisdom says little about whether the same Peripheral countries had a gun against their head when accepting the Euro or importing German goods, hence keeping German economy buoyant as everyone else was sinking under untenable current account deficits), repay the favor and literally hand out cash to Greece and now all the other insolvent European countries in order to preserve the European dream. So far so good - and if it was a modest and contained amount, we are confident Germany would have agreed.

However, as Zero Hedge first calculated last July, sticking Germany, and technically a few German states (we can't wait for calls for a return to a West-East German split at some point in the future, because economic prosperity is certainly not uniform across Germany itself), with the bill would result in a collapse of the German paymaster (which as a reminder, already funds a stealthy European bailout to the tune of EUR2 billion/day via TARGET2). Still, none of the matters to EU President Herman Van Rompuy, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, Euro Group President Jean-Claude Juncker and European Central Bank President Mario Draghi, all of whom, Spiegel reports, will hand over a new proposal to Merkel, this time for a Eurobond Lite project. And with Obama's reelection chances on the line should Europe implode one can bet the US president will make his opinion quite clear too.

Euro-bonds are not only for the German government, a red cloth. But at the same time all participants are aware that without the guarantee must be kept of the rich EU partners, the interest on the loan crisis states barely in check. Feverishly looking for the elite of the EU, therefore, after a compromise solution. According to SPIEGEL information they rely on so-called Euro-bills - a common European bonds with short maturities and a limited amount.

EU President Herman Van Rompuy, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, Euro Group President Jean-Claude Juncker and European Central Bank President Mario Draghi want the end of next week to present the leaders with a proposal. According to the plans of each State may fund up to a certain percentage of its economic output by €-bills. Those who do not comply with the rules will be banned from trading in the following year with the papers.

The quartet hopes to convince the model, the federal government. While France calls for common European bonds, Germany rejects the Euro-bonds from now. In Brussels, however, is convinced that now the model is outlined with the German constitution in line, because the common bonds in the amount and duration are limited.

Which again brings us to the fundamental tradeoff for Germany. On one hand:

Another way, however, seems hardly conceivable that also believe the financial experts of the Institute for World Economics (IfW) in Kiel. They quantify the financial risk for Germany in the collapse of the euro zone to SPIEGEL information on some 1.5 trillion euros.

Yet on the other, Germany will continue to be locked up with ever more contingent liabilities whose ultimate losses will be far greater the longer the illusion continues. Remember: Deus Ex Machinae exist only in ancient Greek theater.

All of this was summarized previously by Carmel Asset Management in their presentation which we posted two weeks ago, and which correctly calculated that the loss from a European collapse now is greater than keeping the Euro together... but what about in 1 year...or 5 years...or 10 years, with the ECB funding peripheral current accounts to the tune of almost EUR100 billion in sunk costs each month and rising?

After all this is the pure definition of unsustainability.

The definition of a lose-lose situation.

Going back to the fundamental dilemma for Europe, those across the table from Merkel will continue to propose piecemeal solutions which will not work, something the market will make increasingly clear. Alternatively, Germany, which has all the trump cards, will merely wait for Europe to wither away until it has no leverage, at which point it will be willing to provide a DIP loan on whatever terms it decides on. If that means a true European Federalist state headed by Germany, so be it.

Just like a true vulture investor literally rolling-up the world one broke country at a time.

And to think all of this could have been avoided if people had actually listened to Milton Friedman, who once again got things right about 15 years of everyone else:

The drive for the Euro has been motivated by politics not economics. The aim has been to link Germany and France so closely as to make a future European war impossible, and to set the stage for a federal United States of Europe. I believe that adoption of the Euro would have the opposite effect. It would exacerbate political tensions by converting divergent shocks that could have been readily accommodated by exchange rate changes into divisive political issues. Political unity can pave the way for monetary unity. Monetary unity imposed under unfavorable conditions will prove a barrier to the achievement of political unity.

Why the hell should Germany bail out the Piigs? One tour throughout Europe and you can see the immediate differences in work ethic, responsibility and education. Let the southern europeans eat dogshit.

BUT: the above calculation is utter nonsense, too. It is based on the completely crazy assumption, that the ESM volume will not be repeatedly increased and that Germany's share in it stays where it is.
Obviously, a EUR exit would be the much cheaper solution.

i think that instead of eating your dogshit, the southern europeans should get out of the euro, turn down the 'bailouts' which in anycase dimwit are really bailouts of.....hey guess what? they are bailouts of "ethical, responsible, educated....GERMAN banks....and other banks.....you think the guy on the beach you can't stand so much is going to see one penny of your holy german bankouts?

just like banksters owned subprime mortgages to people who shouldn't be owning a house in the first place. Those people are irresponsible by nature, so they will walk away from mortgages, have no quips about declaring bankruptcy...nothign to lose, but can you blame them? then the banks run to the government to tax future generations to bail them out of their own doing.

Tax may be indirect in this case....Tax as in high education cost compared to previous generations and high unemployment...ROI on education is low.

SAME SHIT HAPPENING IN USA....INFLATION TAX + EDUCATION/HEALTHCARE TAX which is outpacing general inflation.

German and French banks got high off of bonuses flipping bad loans to PIIGS and now they are blaming PIIGS and asking for bailout at the same time.

Justice is when you let those banks and greedy bond holders fail and kick out the politicians who believe in banksters. But once again, banksters know they will get bailed out. Who's paying? lazy greeks with no infrasturcture for productivity gains for decades? or tax increase on already productive German blue collar? certainly not banksters or politicians who made all the big decisions.

Everyone tries to manipulate opinion, its called having a point of view, im pretty sure Soros and Ferguson know theirs. And if the opinions they put out there dont belong to them...im dying to know, who's are they? And what are your "sources"?

Look down at your keyboard… N is next to M. It was just a typo! Mmmmmm Veyron, I wonder where I have heard that name before? Oh, I know! I suppose we're supposed to believe from your handle that you own a Bugatti. Oooooooh, I am sooooooooo impressed - not!

Not likely. Sentiment may just as easily shift strongly bullish in the next few days. We can easily speculate on downside risks. We are more clueless on policy response. It might pack quite a surprise.

I don't think the cost to save the Euro is much less than to let it fall apart. The analysis is rubbish. Bundesbank's losses through target would be ZERO if the Euro stayed together? Unlike the comparable system in the US, the TARGET2 balances never get settled. Who would believe the PIIGS would export in large quantities to Germany to reduce the TARGET2 balances? What can those lazybones in the club med offer the Germans? PIIGS women?

Sure. Because this specific environment would be fantastic for small, vulnerable currencies.There are some 100 wannabees Soros waiting with supercharged leveraged billions that would LOVE a currency grid. And FLOATING currencies would just ship 40% of the european industry to Asia. No thanks.

And who said the EUR was for "growth"? It is for interzone trading and industrial EFFICIENCY. It's like the diff between revenues & profit.

In the logic of runaway funny money world that Hollande has openly espoused to challenge Merkel Austerity, whatever happens to Greece, he is determined to propose a growth package for Eurozone, next week in a summit, based on 120 billion E investment in infrastructure, hi-tech like nanos and alt. energy projects all across Europe, paid by EIB and other structural unused funds. I think Hollande knows something we don't know like probably a concerted QE by FED next week and ECB trumpets in Eurozone, to take the wind out of a Euro collapse if Greece gets Tipsy-saris fever!

So we have a Portuguese, a Belgian, and a Luxembourger....from a broke country, a country without a government, and a tiny city-state....planing to tell Germany and the UK what to do? They've all gone mad. Use the EIB for huge infrastructure loans? The EIB is volunteering for this. It is staffed by mad europhiles from the left wing of countries around Europe. Recall, too, that the EIB actually volunteered to be the provider of Euro-bonds before Germany said 'no.' The EIB staff and senior executives are dying to have their mission expanded. With other people's money. Check the resumes of the 8 VP's.

good luck defending them & policing them... When the fiat ponzi collapses, so does most of the so called 'trillions' that the Rothschilds claim...

(I wasn't referring to defending the Red Shield, I was referring to the unlikely scenario & logistics in thinking you can taking over large territories because the government supposedly owes you money that you counterfeitted in the first place... This isn't like re-possessing cars or anything)...

~~~

The value in the 'wealth' of the Rothschilds isn't in a vault of gold bricks, or some estates here or there... For that matter, they're not that much better than Kyle Bass...

The 'value' is in a continuous collection stream of interest payments from banking endeavors (both social & private)... The whole world is tied into that game... They cannot command 'armies', but they can counterfeit money to loan to governments who want to conscript armies... The governments pay the conscripts worthless paper... So when the paper ponzi ends, so disappear the conscripts (soldiers, police, etc.)...

At that point, someone can defend a small territory or compound with a private army (Kyle Bass example), but you have no way to control large territories without a large military force projection (which you no longer have)...

Unless, of course, you're willing to fund the entire operation with your gold, which makes no sense whatsoever, because the process of the last several hundred years has been to STEAL gold from anywhere and anybody...

Quite so, and this is why our two party system in the US must die. One is in love with a perpetual warfare state financed from nothingness and the other a welfare state enbled by the same means, and both are in theory at least vehemently opposed to the other.

I find it a source of endless frustration that the people who advocate one party or the other in the US are so blind that they cant see that the uber Nanny State and MIC are fed by the same evil taproot.

Yeah... Like the fucking Rothschilds are going to spend their time in front of digital panels maneuvering a fleet of drones around the geography to pick off little peasants & shake a few copper pennies out of their trousers...

Science fiction... Meet pitchfork...

World domination is about 'low hanging fruit'... It's amazing that the ruse has lasted this long already... It's a testament to the stupidity of mankind...

Excellent article. This explains everything. Now we know why the Germans are fighting to keep the Euro alive. The ramifications for breakup is worse than not. I am positive they did a mock calculation of this years ago.

But the one thing about the calculation is interesting. Do you think they would not be able to collect on the TARGET 2 Loses? Certainly a 50 percent haircut would probably be more accurate or is this calculated as a "total loss"? That evens the playing field a little more.

After reading the article I have discovered the following fact. Who wrote this in?

If a member leaves the Euro, the amount owed to the ECB becomes a loss for the other members. Is this factual?

The Eurozone has a TBTF in Italy. They will use this weapon of mass destruction to force Germany to stay the course. Although Germany is no stranger to rebuilding, I would still say they do not abandon the Euro. Its like the opposite of NAFTA for them and its working out quite well.

US has pretty much the same problems. Substitute Illinois for Greece and California for Spain. Throw in ten times more third world immigrants and a manufacturing base shipped to China to a greater extent than Europe's has been. Plus trillion dollar wars with no end in sight and the 'need' to maintain the world's largest military along with hundreds of bases in other countries. And a health care system that costs twice as much as Europe's with worse results.

The system is becoming too complex to sustain, leaking too much data to keep secret and can't be shutdown for extended maintenance. It will take a few years to implode completely and that is its only option as the smart money makes its last bets and begins to walk away from the table; not to return until a new dealer arrives.

so - thru the extension of debt the peripheral and core Europrean economies were "stimulated" and german banks and industry profited during the expansion phase of the debt cycle.

Now we enter the contraction phase in which the TPTB consolidate their power and holdings by laying claim to whatever they can get their hands on from defaulting debtors.

To cover the process someone has to be made the scapegoat and Greece is the easy patsy - at least at this point in the process.

But, maybe TPTB got a little too greedy and didn't completely see the implications of runaway debt in Ireland, Spain, Italy, etc. Given this, consider the following quote from John Kennith Galbraith:

“People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."

Greece (and any other necessary victims) will be sacrificed, one way or another. Of that here can be no doubt. Because, as Galbraith understood, TPTB will ultimately risk it all in their desire to maintain power.

Never implied the comparison, but thanks for adding the weight of a "people with a common ethnicity, culture, and history" to the argument of Germany telling the Euro to piss off, enduring the cost of going back to the DM and standing on their own.

The Eurozone has a TBTF in Italy. They will use this weapon of mass destruction to force Germany to stay the course. Although Germany is no stranger to rebuilding, I would still say they do not abandon the Euro. Its like the opposite of NAFTA for them and its working out quite well.

The problem is not that they have no alternative, it's that most countries (with very few exceptions like Sweden and Iceland) have fallen for the conceptual trap set by the neofeudalists in believing THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE.

The Swiss tax base as a percentage of GDP is falling, if they weren't increasing their trade surplus by suppressing their currency their employment would be collapsing.

If the only way you see forward is less taxation then the only way to keep employment up is larger and larger trade surplusses and lower and lower wages ... a race to the bottom in which there can only be temporary winners at best.

The historical indicator is this, that Germany will save Italy and its Sicily, but save it in chains. Frederick the New doesn't need the rest, never did...and the Kingdon of Jerusalem is not currently an easy revanche. Nothing is TBTF. Yet some TBNTF banks and countries have intrinsic attraction for the last man standing.

If you own something and manage your affairs properly, then you should give it all up for the greater good of those who don't. It's the new American and Eurpoean way. Just because everyone but you is broke, that's not good enough - only when you are a broke too is it good enough.

The solution might be much more simple than we originally thought. All these peripheral countries have the same problem, they play too much and work too little, eat too much and toil too little, spend too much and save too little. To fix the problem, they need to totally surrender their sovereignty and become German colonies. Why? People who refuse to live a productive, industrious and prudent life ought to be told what to do. Since they don't know how to manage their money or take care their rear end, Germany needs to manage it for them. By the way if the Greeks need to borrow another 200 billion euro it's fine, they need to post the Acropolis as collateral though. If they can't pay the debt when it's due, just dismantle the whole thing and move it to Pergamon Museum in Berlin.

Uh, don't junk me just yet. I'm just guessing what typical German would think. Heil Great Pumpkin!

This is pure propaganda. China is Germany's biggest client. Germany is producing for the Chinese in China. That will continue with our without Euro. The Chinese have vested interests in German manufacturing and have bought either ownership stakes or taken over companies outright. Germany has exported to the Eurozone prior to the Euro and will continue to export after the Euro. Trade among EU nations has been healthy before the common currency and we can go back there.

Wall Street and The City have billions on the hook and stand to loose their shirts if the Euro gets abandoned. That is what this is all about. Nigel Farrage is a pisser who sits on his island at his Queen's mercy. He can have her any way he likes. Europe was healthy before 2008 and before the cabal broke the buck. Now it comes out that the cabal was deeply entrenched in the initial Euro setup to failure.

Europe needs to get rid of the shackles to London, NY and Hongkong. Then all is well.

You bet Wall Street and the City have billions on the hook re the Euro. That's where the Fortune 500's been safe-keeping their global profits untaxed and appreciating while the dollar's been circling the toilet bowl. No wonder Goldman gave them all that help setting it up.

Perceptive. Think of the trouble [and glorious accounting/legal fees] which would be involved in fixing all the Double Irish Dutch tax sandwiches if the Euro falls apart! The Luxembourg portfolios that have to be restated to reality. The Belgian choice whether to be, in the end, Dutch, French, both, or neither. The Euro-denominated bond holdings which have been rehypothecated three or four times in The City! Will that not produce a glorious bonfire of synthetic wealth?

Should this proposal pass, combine it with the US fiscal cliff and you'll have eurusd above 1.6 in approx one year time. Right after making the new all time (and divergent) high, expect Germany either on its knees or totally pissed off with eurusd on its way back down to parity.

Alternatively, Germany, which has all the trump cards, will merely wait for Europe to wither away until it has no leverage, at which point it will be willing to provide a DIP loan on whatever terms it decides on. If that means a true European Federalist state headed by Germany, so be it.....

Isn't the entire "Germany made us spend too much" bit ridiculous? My experience in Southern Europe over the last ten years tells me the trade imbalance happend this way: As Greece, Italy, Spain, Ireland et al became members of the Euro Zone they doubled down on their Europeaness. How. The citizens began to travel more, because Europeans travel don't they? They realized that they needed to have European-class kitchens, so in come the renovations with German appliances. They needed cars other Europeans would recognize as presitigious: Since Ferraris spend too much time in the shop, that meant buying German cars. Even PIIGS government ministers all prefer German cars. And yet the periphery had to prove, somehow that "we deserve it, we really deserve it" so they started to post growth figures and new-jobs figures far in excess of Germany. How? Well, mostly building houses with lots of foreign workers and German money thrown in. "Spain generates 55% of all European jobs growth" read one headline. Well of course! Last but not least Periphery Bureaucrats were now European Bureaucrats. They deserve higher pay and more respect, no? And German cars with chauffeurs? And safety fall-back jobs in Brussels if they lost an election or two, no? I think the foregoing describes what happened. Not a bit of it argues German responsibility for the periphery's plight.

Alternatively, Germany, which has all the trump cards, will merely wait for Europe to wither away until it has no leverage, at which point it will be willing to provide a DIP loan on whatever terms it decides on. If that means a true European Federalist state headed by Germany, so be it.

Does this mean the rest of Europe should learn ALL the verses to Deutschlandlied?

ANYONE that wants to argue Germany somehow benefitted at the expense of the periphery and thus should be more willing to accept a transfer union and eurobonds needs a history lesson.

Go look at West Germany's position in Europe before unification. Then watch the 10 years of pain it too to integrate East Germany and keep its budget deficits and debt where they are. Germany was a pretty miserable place until the mid-2000s relative to West Germany pre-unification.

Now they are enjoying the benefits of a decade of austerity and frugallity and you want them to squander it on the parts of the EU that took advantage of the Bundesbank put and low interest rates to spend themselves silly.

Not going to happen. If it does we are going to have to start calling the Germans the most generous pushovers of all time.

They have paid enough for WW2. All the Natzis are dead. Asking them for more reparations is unfair to the people that have worked so hard to make sure this never happens again.

Btw where are Frances reparations for Napolean or Italy's for Nero or Greeces for Alexander or Spains for the Moores?

...and anyone pulling the "Germany just lent us too much so we could by their goods" line should consider honestly this hypothetical: If in 2000-2008 it was only Japanese, US, and Chinese banks that were willing to lend extravagantly to the new euro zone countries, what goods would periphery citizens be buying with that money? German cars, German appliances, German and Swedish trucks. It seems fairly obvious, no? [Except in Sotogrande and Marbella, where it would have been British and Italian cars, though the Bentleys and Rolls' are actually German cars with better upholstery.]

"Let’s begin with the observation that irresponsible borrowers can’t exist without irresponsible lenders. Germany’s banks were Greece’s enablers. Thanks partly to lax regulation, German banks built up precarious exposures to Europe’s peripheral countries in the years before the crisis. By December 2009, according to the Bank for International Settlements, German banks had amassed claims of $704 billion on Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain, much more than the German banks’ aggregate capital. In other words, they lent more than they could afford.

When the European Union and the European Central Bank stepped in to bail out the struggling countries, they made it possible for German banks to bring their money home. As a result, they bailed out Germany’s banks as well as the taxpayers who might otherwise have had to support those banks if the loans weren’t repaid. Unlike much of the aid provided to Greece, the support to Germany’s banks happened automatically, as a function of the currency union’s structure.

How It Worked

Here’s how it worked. When German banks pulled money out of Greece, the other national central banks of the euro area collectively offset the outflow with loans to the Greek central bank. These loans appeared on the balance sheet of the Bundesbank, Germany’s central bank, as claims on the rest of the euro area. This mechanism, designed to keep the currency area’s accounts in balance, made it easier for the German banks to exit their positions.

Now for the tricky part: As opposed to the claims of the private banks, the Bundesbank’s claims were only partly the responsibility of Germany. If Greece reneged on its debt, the losses would be shared among all euro-area countries, according to their shareholding in the ECB. Germany’s stake would be about 28 percent. In short, over the last couple of years, much of the risk sitting on German banks’ balance sheets shifted to the taxpayers of the entire currency union."

I look forward to your painful attempt to reconcile B.I.S. money-flow figures with the childish morality play your childish brain wants to believe, Harvard Business School and all.

637 billion of losses could have been avoided had we had serious people at the central banks instead of these clowns who WILL one day anwser for they have done. Instead all the garbage was onloaded in order to exactly paint these end of the world scaremongering scenarios. Also how can they predict the NEXT 5 years of GDP and the export component. Truly ridiculous.

The piper will be paid. That is most certain. We just have to be patient until the IOU is consumated. Meanwhile, we are prepared. Have seen so many articles lately about how gold, silver will be smashed, as part time traders will rush to the dollar and destroy the only real currency out there. I think this is the 33rd time they are advising us how stupid we are. I guess I will never learn.

Germany itself is only holding it's head above water because of the so-called flight to quality once this artificial bond fix collapses there won't be a man standing in Europe or the World for that matter

Short EUR/USD and long EUR/GPD might be a winning position in this insane world where such a game (on 1 : 100 leverage on Forex) may make me more money in half an hour than I may earn with any real, honest, enjoyable work for which I might be qualified.

in spite of the propaganda, greece is not germany and germany is not greece. ditto spain, ITA, &tc...

they just use the same currency, among others (currencies) of course

friedman knew as we do, that poilitical union is a long shot; he is wrong again, that this currency will make it harder, tho; in slewienomics, this currency game and the way the banksters and uber-fascists have rigged it, is the only motivation for political union imagineable, and it is still a dumb-ass idea for germany and others, also, but that won't matter if the muddled thought decides it is the "best future"

as are euro-bonds, heavy, lite, or fat-free a dumb-ass menu here

greece, spain, and other sovs are spending billions and billions pretending to address their problems

how bullish is that? L0L!!!

banksters' solutions = people-directed dilutions + ZIRP

perhaps slewieoliticsTM will emerge from this mess: and thePeople will team up with the banksters to liquidate the pols

win-win! let's see what how the banksters feel here, shall we? any kwestions about the pols, just go jump in the lake, ok?

Germany should voice support for the idea, but then say at the same time they are leaving the euro zone. they should have gotten out before the endless money pit. As usual and I have said this over and over again. the elites of a system that owe their wealth and power to the system will spend an endless amount of other peoples money to preserve that system. this shows it once again. The enitre cast of chartacters running this needs to be thrown out and outsiders brought in to decide what to do. you can't have the current crop do anything other that what they are doing. They have invested most of their lives into this fucked up system.

Juncker should have zero policy role and should be removed he has such conflicts of intersts. or how about draghi. Uh, all my goldman buddies and myself may loose a lot of money unless this happens.

These mother fuckers bail themselves out all the time and pretend they are doing it for us, the media publishes it. It's fucing insane

Junker was critical in almost each and every poor decision in putting the euro together, now people actually listen to him. if you don't beleive me just wikki the dude:

He has been President of the Euro Group, the political control over the euro currency, since the creation of a semi-permanent position in 2005.

. Juncker at this time accepted the position of Governor of the World Bank.

Juncker chaired the Council of Economic and Financial Affairs (ECOFIN), becoming a key architect of the Maastricht Treaty. Juncker was largely responsible for clauses on economic and monetary union (the process that would eventually give rise to the Euro) and was himself a signatory to the treaty in 1992

During one such visit, to Dublin in December 1996, Juncker successfully mediated a dispute over his own EU Economic and Monetary Union policy between French president Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Helmut Kohl.[citation needed] The press dubbed Juncker the Hero of Dublin for achieving an unlikely consensus between the two.[citation

He also instigated the "Euro 11", an informal group of European finance ministers for matters regarding his Economic and Monetary Union ideals. For all of these initiatives, he was honored with the Vision for Europe Award in 1998

"Monetary policy is a serious issue. We should discuss this in secret,in the Eurogroup [...] I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficientlydemocratic, but I want to be serious [...] I am for secret, dark debates"— Jean-Claude Juncker, 20 April 2011.[3]

Me: now if anyone can please explain to me why someone like junker who seems to almost gotten every major policy choice wrong in his life should be involved in a solution to this crisis I'd like to know. He has devoted his whole life to the eurozone, there is no way he should be trusted to be able to make a rational choice in finding a solution. Not only that but based on his history he should be trusted by the public to make the right choice. As someone has invested his whole career in the project, he will alwaqys chose to save it no matter what. he and all the rest making the choices regarding the euro crisis have huge conflicts of interst in their decisions, motives, and emotions to be able to make any choices

Just to see those who are responsible for the last two times and now the attempt for the third time go down the train in a glorious storm makes me willing to endure this whole unbearable anglo-american propaganda war against Germany which would leave Goebbels in bitter shame, could he watch it. I said it before: Germany will survive far more than those who wish to destroy her (again) can ever imagine. The land has been carpet-bombed into the ground, it suffered war against the whole world and utter destruction and loss of land and supression of culture and yet it is there and *will be* there, and it will survive all those ever-so-clever money devils from The City and the Street.

As the last crown prince of the German Empire, Wilhelm (III.) put it in a Movietone interview in 1932: "Germany will always in the end come out top".

You all are a bit funny with your rationality heavily distorted by your own wishes/nationalism/political convictions etc. etc.

Don't you see what it is really happening? Where the forces in motion will lead Europe? The geopolitcal implications? Stop uselessly hoping that Germany can stop the train set in motion. It will stop only when arriving at the station.

You should be happy to be witnessing the birth of the European Federation. You all should welcome the USofE. In 15/20 years time the political union will be completed.

no, not a troll. I know you're used here to only hear the same opinion over and over so that you are convinced that that is the only possible opinion.

don't let your preferences cloud your view. look at what it is happening, not what you (imho wrongly) would like to be. look at how the options are becoming less and less till the only one will be fiscal union - > political union. Probably it will first be a eurozone thing then the other states one after the other will ask to join in.

so you and farage can still dream your nationalistic dreams, you could also decide to exit that noone will force you to stay.

sometimes I really do wonder if some mastermind knew it all since the start. how to convince the local political elites to give away their precious power? look at Farage, local political elites hate to lose their power. a huge crisis with only one viable way out, I mean a constructive way out, not a destructive one.

things are shaping in a way that even those who would not benefit from a European Federation in the long term (far from it) are asking and urging for it to happen soon. the sooner the best. Tyler is right, the entire world is asking Europe for big steps towards political union. Europe will go that way. Germany having a leading role (thus also having more say on dictating terms and times) not because they are evil but because of their specific weight and the role they conquered out of their capabilities. But they do know which it is the only way to go.

the QTonDUT took a loooong siesta after standing on the porch for 3 days, but looks possibly captcha-challenged and may have re-discovered zH while cleaning up bookmarks

[paste} Tyler is right, the entire world is asking Europe for big steps towards political union. would a link be a problem?

you may wanna suck that infected cock before it fuks you in the ass. again. that sed, you are correct about looking at what is happening:

what is happening = nothing

i have been trying to point this out for months now but there seems2B a shitload of resistance to even considering this slewie-idea, also

if prez0 were tp come out and tells people nothing is happening and nothing will happen on HIS watch, he would probably get re-elected! plus it would be true! we need more nothing happening from our goobermints; tons! mountains of it!

that way, the economies they have completely fuking destroyed may be able to... ...recover...

if you can not understand me, try suicide by policeman, ok?

if you love life too much to not get the hell outa the way of that steamroller you are right in front of remember what really happens in the long run, even in the fantasy land/EU