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Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

Lee apparently had a natural tendency to improve his taijutsu skills, since Kakashi was surprised that he was able to open up five gates at such a young age. Sure, he had to put a lot of effort to make that happen, but that's why it requires a change of perspective in the consideration.
Same for Naruto. Both are geniuses when it comes to perseverance and dedication, but I'm not considering neither as a genius when it comes to the traditional perspective of quickly taking things up.

IMO, I've never liked the idea that someone can be a "genius of anything" simply because they hold a natural talent for it. IMO, if that is the case you simply say they are a "natural" in terms of a certain thing, like how Lee is a natural when it comes to taijutsu.

Saying that, the definition of genius in the manga =/= the real life definition(s). As others have pointed out, Kishi made it a point to show that Naruto isn't a genius.

Also, in the context of the manga, the whole "genius of hard work" is both a paradox and an oxymoron. While it is true that geniuses certainly work hard, the act of working hard does not denote a genius. Kakashi was shocked by Lee because it seemed impossible, but Lee worked impossibly hard, so much so in fact, that even when unconscious his body moved on it's own off of muscle memory. That has nothing to do with genius, but is a bi-product of him nearly killing himself working so hard.

"The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

I guess i'd put itachi as a genius candidate. Reasons: Mastery of sharingan, level of intelligence , level of power that surprisingly enough was able to match up to other badasses ie jiraiya, orochimaru, obito (yes i put obito because it was said in the manga by obito himself that if he didn't keep a few secrets from itachi he would be dead) and of course befcause itachi is just..well...COOL ^__^

Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

Who do you guys think is the greatest genius in Naruto. We have a lot of powerful people, some of them are geniuse based on hard work, and some mostly cuz of their bloodline. How do you rank them ?

My choices
1. Naruto - learned Rasengan in three days, took Rasengan to the next level, where his father and Kakashi failed. Able to use Kyuubi's chakra (not tails, just chakra) at will. Never give up attitude pushes him to greater levels.

Naruto did not learn the Rasengan in 3 days. He told Tsunade that he would master the Rasengan in 3 days. It took Naruto a month to learn the Rasengan:

3 days to learn the first stage (popping the balloon filled with water)
3 weeks to finish the second stage (exploding the rubber ball)
7 days to complete the Rasengan (putting the first two stages together)

Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

Originally Posted by Kage Fuusha

Naruto did not learn the Rasengan in 3 days. He told Tsunade that he would master the Rasengan in 3 days. It took Naruto a month to learn the Rasengan:

3 days to learn the first stage (popping the balloon filled with water)
3 weeks to finish the second stage (exploding the rubber ball)
7 days to complete the Rasengan (putting the first two stages together)

Even considering the fact that, as you correctly state, Naruto did not manage to complete the rasengan in only 3 days, I also believe that he deserves the title of 'genius'.
This is due to 2 things.
1/ He has an out of conventional method for approaching difficult situations and problems - such as his clone sage chakra transfer, or his clone rasengan (clone, clone...) This enables him to solve problems that others, even smart people such as Kakashi, would have difficulty with. His way of thinking also has helped him find strange and novel tactics to beat opponents who should, in theory, be far stronger or skilled, with far more experience than he has.
2/ It is true that he has an incredibly small number of techniques. However, he has progressed these techniques further than anyone else.
- Rasengan: He progressed further than Minato, Jiraiya or Kakashi
- Sage mode: Further than Jiraiya
- Tailed beast mode: Although I am open to the possibility that his progression over Bee is solely due to the Kyuubi's special chakra...
- Even Kagebunshin he has found ways to use that no one ever thought of doing so...

Sure, he does not have the book smarts, or conventional intelligence of other so called geniuses, but I believe that his ability to take anything that he does and perfect it/bring it to levels that no one else has ever reached before plus his ability to think out of the box and approach things in ways others couldn't possibly conceive of - sticks him firmly in the box marked genius.

Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

Originally Posted by zimbardo

Even considering the fact that, as you correctly state, Naruto did not manage to complete the rasengan in only 3 days, I also believe that he deserves the title of 'genius'.
This is due to 2 things.
1/ He has an out of conventional method for approaching difficult situations and problems - such as his clone sage chakra transfer, or his clone rasengan (clone, clone...) This enables him to solve problems that others, even smart people such as Kakashi, would have difficulty with. His way of thinking also has helped him find strange and novel tactics to beat opponents who should, in theory, be far stronger or skilled, with far more experience than he has.
2/ It is true that he has an incredibly small number of techniques. However, he has progressed these techniques further than anyone else.
- Rasengan: He progressed further than Minato, Jiraiya or Kakashi
- Sage mode: Further than Jiraiya
- Tailed beast mode: Although I am open to the possibility that his progression over Bee is solely due to the Kyuubi's special chakra...
- Even Kagebunshin he has found ways to use that no one ever thought of doing so...

Sure, he does not have the book smarts, or conventional intelligence of other so called geniuses, but I believe that his ability to take anything that he does and perfect it/bring it to levels that no one else has ever reached before plus his ability to think out of the box and approach things in ways others couldn't possibly conceive of - sticks him firmly in the box marked genius.

Never said he wasn't qualified for the title of genius...just pointed out that it took longer than 3 days for him to complete the Rasengan.

Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

Still doesn't make Naruto a genius though, it just makes him clever or more inventive. I mean, he had to find another way to make rasengan because he couldn't do it with one hand. A genius would be able to make rasengan with one hand, like Minato and Kakashi have. Naruto also has difficulty in understanding explanations, like when Kakashi explained elemental affinity to him. Nothing states that Naruto is a genius, in my opinion, just that he's clever and works hard.

Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

Originally Posted by M3J

Still doesn't make Naruto a genius though, it just makes him clever or more inventive. I mean, he had to find another way to make rasengan because he couldn't do it with one hand. A genius would be able to make rasengan with one hand, like Minato and Kakashi have. Naruto also has difficulty in understanding explanations, like when Kakashi explained elemental affinity to him. Nothing states that Naruto is a genius, in my opinion, just that he's clever and works hard.

But doesn't exactly that make him an genius? Its actually more difficult to find an easier solution to the same problem. For example visiual effect in console development. The math might not be as correct as more complex simulations, but if the effects look the same and it doesn't have the same performance hit, it will be a big improvement. And it'S a lot harder to do. You know why Albert Einstein was so famous? Because he made a simple equation that was the solution to a difficult problem. Nobody else was able to, just like Naruto. So if he "just" works around the same problem with an easier answer, doesn't it elevate him atleast to the same ground as the genius?

Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

Originally Posted by Crazytype

But doesn't exactly that make him an genius? Its actually more difficult to find an easier solution to the same problem. For example visiual effect in console development. The math might not be as correct as more complex simulations, but if the effects look the same and it doesn't have the same performance hit, it will be a big improvement. And it'S a lot harder to do. You know why Albert Einstein was so famous? Because he made a simple equation that was the solution to a difficult problem. Nobody else was able to, just like Naruto. So if he "just" works around the same problem with an easier answer, doesn't it elevate him atleast to the same ground as the genius?

I understand your point, but in this manga that's not how geniuses are presented:
geniuses are presented as people who pick up things way faster than their peers, people who can create new things, basically precocious guys who are good at everything.
Example, what Jiraiya needed 1 month to master Orochimaru mastered in 1 week.

Now, its also true though that the more time passes the more the hard-working guys close the gap and may end up surpassing the "geniuses", and that's because Kishi liked to show time and time again that those hard working guys are, in the end, people who are extremely good at something and that can reach the "geniuses" with enough hard work:
Rock Lee can go on way more than everyone else, and mastered 5 Gates at a young age.
Can Neji do that? No.
But can Rock Lee do 90% of the things Neji can do? Hell no.

Even better, let's use Jiraiya and Orochimaru for example.
Orochimaru was the genius of the two, but we see Jiraiya being probably the most complete ninja of the entire manga:
great strenght, great speed, great skills, great ninjutsu, great taijutsu, great genjutsu ( through Ma and Pa ), great stamina, enormous knowledge on Fuuinjutsu, Senjutsu user, incredibly knowledgeable and experienced, an accomplished writer and a great spy.
Orochimaru lacks Jiraiya's physical skills, genjutsu abilities but is actually immensely knowledgeable and a great ninjutsu/kinjutsu user.

But was the difference that thin at the beginning?
No, Orochimaru was miles beyond. It just took Jiraiya a lot of years to catch up, that's the difference imo between "geniuses" and "hardworking" types how Kishimoto presentes them at least, imo.

Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

This is a prime example of why Naruto is not a genius, regardless of what people say or think. I think Naruto's smarter than Kishi shows or what he's given credit for, but a genius he is not. Orochimaru was known as a genius and was able to understand the purpose of the bell test before HIruzen even finished speaking. Minato was able to make rasengan (I don't understand how he copied bijuu bomb) from nothing, and he managed to create Hiraishin.

Naruto did complete rasengan and take it further, but it doesn't necessarily make him a genius. He most likely worked hard to do that, without fully understanding what he was doing.

Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

Originally Posted by M3J

This is a prime example of why Naruto is not a genius, regardless of what people say or think. I think Naruto's smarter than Kishi shows or what he's given credit for, but a genius he is not. Orochimaru was known as a genius and was able to understand the purpose of the bell test before HIruzen even finished speaking. Minato was able to make rasengan (I don't understand how he copied bijuu bomb) from nothing, and he managed to create Hiraishin.

Naruto did complete rasengan and take it further, but it doesn't necessarily make him a genius. He most likely worked hard to do that, without fully understanding what he was doing.

Conventional intelligence (i.e. book smarts) =/= genius

Also, as to the bolded, underlined part - that is just mean (and entirely without evidence)...

Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

Knowing that didn't require book smarts, Kakashi basically dumbed it up that anyone could understand. A genius in the first place would likely complete the sentence or be able to understand quickly.

How is it mean? Naruto's shown he didn't completely understand stuff, but it didn't stop him from trying it or training to do it. Though to be honest, I can't think of an example right now.

Naruto understand things if they are told in a way he understands, Gamakichi made that example for Sage Mode and he understood it right away, Jiraiya was the same.
Kakashi didn't bother, since he knew Naruto understood things just as well by experiencing them