Jim, wants the Sox to dive right back into the abyss that they were in this year by signing Shields, Sanchez, Lohse, Liriano, Hamilton and Upton...not to mention Broxton, Howell and Lowe...and let's not forget to bring back Albers who I believe has moved on in the Breslow deal.

Out of the 8 starters that are now on the roster, which 5 make the rotation?

...this type of team rebuilding is exactly what we don't need...replace the old fatcats with new ones!

Jim, wants the Sox to dive right back into the abyss that they were in this year by signing Shields, Sanchez, Lohse, Liriano, Hamilton and Upton...not to mention Broxton, Howell and Lowe...and let's not forget to bring back Albers who I believe has moved on in the Breslow deal.

Out of the 8 starters that are now on the roster, which 5 make the rotation?

...this type of team rebuilding is exactly what we don't need...replace the old fatcats with new ones!

OK I forgot the two current catchers. You got me there

As far as the abyss you mention only one of those guys will want a 5 yr deal and that is Hamilton. Again on the abyss, if you do not sign premier players to long term contracts you become KC or Pitts or some other team that never has the guy who can make a difference. The RS in the past 12 years were the best when they had Ortiz and Manny plain and simple. Having Ortiz and Hamilton does the same thing.

As for signing all the pitchers IMHO many on the cureent roster are gone. Miller, Hill, Cook, Bard, Mortensen, etc.... I also know they won't sign them all nor should they however what you see is the list of the best available and even that is not great. Why is that???

It is because many of the premeir players are tied up on long term contracts aka the so called abyss you feverently never wish to go back to.

Signing long term contracts on premeir players is smart baseball. Problem is it doesn't always work. However the plusses out weigh the minuses.

As far as the abyss you mention only one of those guys will want a 5 yr deal and that is Hamilton. Again on the abyss, if you do not sign premier players to long term contracts you become KC or Pitts or some other team that never has the guy who can make a difference. The RS in the past 12 years were the best when they had Ortiz and Manny plain and simple. Having Ortiz and Hamilton does the same thing.

As for signing all the pitchers IMHO many on the cureent roster are gone. Miller, Hill, Cook, Bard, Mortensen, etc.... I also know they won't sign them all nor should they however what you see is the list of the best available and even that is not great. Why is that???

It is because many of the premier players are tied up on long term contracts aka the so called abyss you feverently never wish to go back to.

Signing long term contracts on premeir players is smart baseball. Problem is it doesn't always work. However the plusses out weigh the minuses.

I disagree Jim, both Upton and Shields will be looking for long-term deals, along with Hamilton and if you are going to invest in these players you HAVE TO know they can be comfortable playing in Boston....Hamilton will likely be looking for a Crawford type deal while Upton in the 10-15 range. Shields and Greinke, will be looking for a Lackey contract at least. This Free Agent ABYSS is what I want the Sox to avoid...overspending for players in the marketplace.

This does not mean I don't want them to pay good players fair market value. My approach this offseason would be as follows:

Replace the manager and improve team chemistry...I'd look at Mills, Martinez in TB, or Tony Pena...If Farrell came here without giving up anything I'd give him a shot too.

Let the new manager pick his own coaches

Acquire one OF, possibly two if Ellsbury is moved via trade...a name I like is Alex Gordon but he might not be available...I'll let BC figure out this one out...it could be someone like Kalish and a Wigginton that platoon for a year.

Acquire one 1B, via FA or trade...Napoli, K Morales, Morneau are just a few names to consider. I'd like to see a Napoli/Loney combo next year which would retain late inning defense at this position.

Acquire one SP...via free agency or trade...Josh Johnson, Jake Peavy, Anibel Sanchez & Brandan McCarthy are guys I would check into and if the price was fair sign one of them to complete the rotation of Buccholz, Lester, Lackey & Doubront.

Bring back a bullpen of Bailey, Bard (hopefully straightened out), Melanson, Tazawa, Morales (spot starter), Breslow, Hill or Miller. Even Padilla should be considered if the price was right again but it would cost one of those other guys a job.

If the price tag for any of the players I mention became too rich I'd move on to the next guy.

I want hungry players that still play for their pay...long term, free agent deals are not smart baseball unless that deal involves one of the team's young players, like Middlebrooks, that they decide to invest in. Similar to the Pedroia contract.

At this point, I would strongly consider bringing back Ortiz and give him a 2/20 deal...Cody Ross also on a 3/15 deal or something like that. These guys have proven they can be successful in this market.

With all this said, I am not advocating that the Sox become a small market type team...on the contrary they should spend money on hungry players, just not the superstars. Looking back now, I think keeping Beltre and VMart might have been smart moves, but that is a hindsight being 20/20 comment.

At this point, I would strongly consider bringing back Ortiz and give him a 2/20 deal...Cody Ross also on a 3/15 deal or something like that. These guys have proven they can be successful in this market.

With all this said, I am not advocating that the Sox become a small market type team...on the contrary they should spend money on hungry players, just not the superstars. Looking back now, I think keeping Beltre and VMart might have been smart moves, but that is a hindsight being 20/20 comment.

Bottom line is if the owners dont spend near $200m average each year over a 3 year span they are stealing our money and should be tarred feathered and flogged while being dumped in the harbor. Crawford and Lackey aren't reasons to give up on huge contracts just examples of wrong guys to give them to (cough, Ellsbury, cough). I wanted Beck and Lowell extended and the relative small amount of money wasted on them was not the downfall. Crawford, who never hit for power, and Lackey, who was never ever ever an ace were the problems. You pay premium only for the best of the best. Greinke is not that nor are any pitchers out there this year, Hamilton might be if health maintains, but identify those guys and get them and stop worrying about how ownership spends our money from the $200 bricks just make sure they do. The Yankees wont be hurt by ARod AWful contract moving forward cause they can outspend everyone and the Sox can outspend everyone not named the Yankees. But STOP looking for VALUE long term that is what has KILLED this team. Renteria, Lugo, Drew, Lackey, Clement, and every other $15m player is the problem, legit stars have multiple suitors for $20m+. Sox are in deep s though, cause Bard isnt coming back throwing 91 with no movement, Lester is down below 93, and Lackey is Lackey. Pitching is a huge problem for this team. Not sure there is one sure thing on this team, maybe Buch and Tazawa are closest, Lester, Morales, Dubront and Miller as lesser pieces. But really, any of these guys starting over Pedro Roger or Curt? Thought so. Until someone enters that debate this team is like every other crappy baseball team, holding a lottery ticket of mediocre players and hoping they get lucky (see As, Oakland) or straky (Cardinals, '11 St Louis). And in a free market sport where you have the second greatest revenue stream, that should not be ok.

Bottom line is if the owners dont spend near $200m average each year over a 3 year span they are stealing our money and should be tarred feathered and flogged while being dumped in the harbor. Crawford and Lackey aren't reasons to give up on huge contracts just examples of wrong guys to give them to (cough, Ellsbury, cough). I wanted Beck and Lowell extended and the relative small amount of money wasted on them was not the downfall. Crawford, who never hit for power, and Lackey, who was never ever ever an ace were the problems. You pay premium only for the best of the best. Greinke is not that nor are any pitchers out there this year, Hamilton might be if health maintains, but identify those guys and get them and stop worrying about how ownership spends our money from the $200 bricks just make sure they do.

But STOP looking for VALUE long term that is what has KILLED this team. Renteria, Lugo, Drew, Lackey, Clement, and every other $15m player is the problem, legit stars have multiple suitors for $20m+.

I disagree that Sox fans would 'tar and feather' ownership if they don't spend $200million every season...this is the attitude that got them into the mess they were in. As long as they make a legitimate effort to improve their weaknesses on the roster in 2012 then most Sox fans will be OK if the amount spent is not Yankee-like. 2012 was an example of them not doing that, as IMO their focus was misdirected toward the 100th Fenway celebration.

I also disagree that seeking value long term killed this team because NONE of the players you mentioned was anything close to a VALUE contract, and that included Crawford and Gonzalez. Value contracts are Beltre's, Ross's and others like that...good players working their own bridge years.

Since Bill James ain't going away, it's time for the GM to try to use sabermetrics to identify a list of players that meet the on base criteria management prefers, but then use real baseball people to work the personality aspect of said players and to come up with a value indicator which will determine how much to invest and/or trade for these players.

Just making a high free agent offer to a guy like Hamilton, who is a drink away from a full relapse is not smart baseball. Plus was this guy drunk yesterday when he misplayed a easy fly ball and likely cost the Rangers the division title??

Step 2. Trade for Felix Hernandez. The Redsox have the established pitcher: Lester, Top Prospects: Barnes, Bogarts, Brentz, Bradley,Jr., and Webster to create a package to entice the Mariners to make a deal. Also Boston now as the payroll flexibilty to bring in and sign Felix.

To be honest, I don't see any easy fixes. The Sox need at least one good arm for the rotation and one good bat, maybe two, for the lineup (OF and/or 1B). That's simple enough, but I just don't see good arms and good bats that are all that obtainable, especially if a trade is needed. If the other team will accept lousy players or prospects in return for a good arm or bat, fine. But they are going to want guys like Bogaerts or Pedroia or whoever, which creates another hole. To me, I should explain, Bogaerts is the future 3B, 1B, or OF (LF or RF) because he is primarily a good bat.

Now the praise for Billy Beane after manny on the forum bashed him. What a shame that BDC stopped your ability to search out the idiots that were bashing Beane amd Moneyball. So many things to search for in the archives but we are not allowed to do so. Manny wanted Beckett extended ASAP for example, where are they?

As far as the abyss you mention only one of those guys will want a 5 yr deal and that is Hamilton. Again on the abyss, if you do not sign premier players to long term contracts you become KC or Pitts or some other team that never has the guy who can make a difference. The RS in the past 12 years were the best when they had Ortiz and Manny plain and simple. Having Ortiz and Hamilton does the same thing.

As for signing all the pitchers IMHO many on the cureent roster are gone. Miller, Hill, Cook, Bard, Mortensen, etc.... I also know they won't sign them all nor should they however what you see is the list of the best available and even that is not great. Why is that???

It is because many of the premier players are tied up on long term contracts aka the so called abyss you feverently never wish to go back to.

Signing long term contracts on premeir players is smart baseball. Problem is it doesn't always work. However the plusses out weigh the minuses.

I disagree Jim, both Upton and Shields will be looking for long-term deals, along with Hamilton and if you are going to invest in these players you HAVE TO know they can be comfortable playing in Boston....Hamilton will likely be looking for a Crawford type deal while Upton in the 10-15 range. Shields and Greinke, will be looking for a Lackey contract at least. This Free Agent ABYSS is what I want the Sox to avoid...overspending for players in the marketplace.

This does not mean I don't want them to pay good players fair market value. My approach this offseason would be as follows:

Replace the manager and improve team chemistry...I'd look at Mills, Martinez in TB, or Tony Pena...If Farrell came here without giving up anything I'd give him a shot too.

Let the new manager pick his own coaches

Acquire one OF, possibly two if Ellsbury is moved via trade...a name I like is Alex Gordon but he might not be available...I'll let BC figure out this one out...it could be someone like Kalish and a Wigginton that platoon for a year.

Acquire one 1B, via FA or trade...Napoli, K Morales, Morneau are just a few names to consider. I'd like to see a Napoli/Loney combo next year which would retain late inning defense at this position.

Acquire one SP...via free agency or trade...Josh Johnson, Jake Peavy, Anibel Sanchez & Brandan McCarthy are guys I would check into and if the price was fair sign one of them to complete the rotation of Buccholz, Lester, Lackey & Doubront.

Bring back a bullpen of Bailey, Bard (hopefully straightened out), Melanson, Tazawa, Morales (spot starter), Breslow, Hill or Miller. Even Padilla should be considered if the price was right again but it would cost one of those other guys a job.

If the price tag for any of the players I mention became too rich I'd move on to the next guy.

I want hungry players that still play for their pay...long term, free agent deals are not smart baseball unless that deal involves one of the team's young players, like Middlebrooks, that they decide to invest in. Similar to the Pedroia contract.

At this point, I would strongly consider bringing back Ortiz and give him a 2/20 deal...Cody Ross also on a 3/15 deal or something like that. These guys have proven they can be successful in this market.

th all this said, I am not advocating that the Sox become a small market type team...on the contrary they should spend money on hungry players, just not the superstars. Looking back now, I think keeping Beltre and VMart might have been smart moves, but that is a hindsight being 20/20 comment.

32 years old, a history that has surely aged his body beyond that, and you want to sign him until he's 37?

Have you learned NOTHING from the past 3 years?

Or LAA?

Or LAD?

Or PHI?

How many examples do you need to see spending big money on older players is WRONG!

Four out of five of the last world series champions won with key contributions from older free-agents....

Would that be the 2011 Cardinals led by Pujols and Carpenter/Wainright (one was hurt I think)?

Or 2010 Giants led my Lincecum/Cain?

Or 2009 NYY led by a plethora of talent, much of it home-grown?

Or 2008 PHI led by Halladay/Oswalt/Utley/Howard?

Or 2007 Red Sox led by Schilling/Beckett/Lester/Pedroia/etc?

Please show me where, and who were key FA agent signings on any of those teams. Yes, obviously every team has a mix of home grown players and key FA pickups, but which of those teams spent huge money on a street FA that led them to a championship?

Spending 100 million on an addict (drugs, booze, chew) who is 32 is the road to ruin. I can't believe after all the money the Sox have wasted recently on older FA (Lackey, Cameron, Crawford) people want to spend MORE that way. BIG TICKET free agents rarely EVER work out. Someone like Cody Ross? Sure. He'll cost, what? 2/20 at most?

Jim, wants the Sox to dive right back into the abyss that they were in this year by signing Shields, Sanchez, Lohse, Liriano, Hamilton and Upton...not to mention Broxton, Howell and Lowe...and let's not forget to bring back Albers who I believe has moved on in the Breslow deal.

Out of the 8 starters that are now on the roster, which 5 make the rotation?

...this type of team rebuilding is exactly what we don't need...replace the old fatcats with new ones!

Most people figured out he was listing candidates and not expecting every single player mentioned as a necessary target.

Step 2. Trade for Felix Hernandez. The Redsox have the established pitcher: Lester, Top Prospects: Barnes, Bogarts, Brentz, Bradley,Jr., and Webster to create a package to entice the Mariners to make a deal. Also Boston now as the payroll flexibilty to bring in and sign Felix.

Step 5: Give Ryan Lavarnway the starting catcher job (Lets see what he can do)

Step 6: Hang onto Ellsbury. If we are contending in July we go for it. If we are out of it we trade him to a contender for a prospect or two.

Step 7: If we don't trade Bogarts in a King Felix deal move him to LF or RF and give him a full minor league season to learn the position.

Step1: Not a bad choices...It should be interesting who they decide on.

Step 2 is mind boggling to me. You want to give up Lester AND our top 3 prospects along with our #5??? WAAAAAAAAY too much for Felix...You want to give up all that top talent and the future of this organization for 2 years of Felix??? Thats organizational suicide IMO...One pitcher does NOT make a whole team.

Step4: I like a couple of the names on that list. I suggested Hunter on a 1yr with option deal but it looks like the halos want him and Grienke back.

Step5: Lavarnway does NOT deserve the starting job IMO. Salty has one more arb year left and should be the starter. The numbers and the naked eye (for those who know what to look for) show his defense and work with the staff has greatly improved. He has one more year to see if he can put it all together offensively and defensively.

Step 6: The importance to another team of trading for Ells this winter is they receive a pick for him by obtaining him this winter. At the deadline, per the new rules, They team obtaining Ells would NOT receive a comp. pick. Ells has more worth this winter with the extra pick in the draft that comes with him opposed to trading him in July...

Step7: Id wait another year before doing that. We need to see how Iggy's offensive development comes along before moving a 20yr old off his original position.

32 years old, a history that has surely aged his body beyond that, and you want to sign him until he's 37?

Have you learned NOTHING from the past 3 years?

Or LAA?

Or LAD?

Or PHI?

How many examples do you need to see spending big money on older players is WRONG!

Four out of five of the last world series champions won with key contributions from older free-agents....

This is true Drew, but the length of the deal is what the point is. Its not wheter Hamilton can mash, we know he can. Its can he mash until hes 38+ without falling off the wagon and staying healthy for north of 20mm a year.

A Torii Hunter type would be less years, less money, and although wouldnt hit as many HR as Hamilton, would provide a .300AVG with a +.350OBP with solid defense and leadership. All without handcuffing the team financially again like Hamilton.