Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

in the articles/videos section that show this guy doing something that looks close to what Shioda used to do(didn't see Shioda do it in a chair though). Now besides the possibility that they guy could be using one of those prank handshake buzzers, is this some example of ground path making these guys jump like that?

I can't get it to play for some reason, but I can see a still when I save the file. Think of it as the same sorts of cooperative students that take a dive when an Aikido teacher points down at the mat. I hate that bogus stuff in any martial art. Wu may be able to generate something of a pulse, but the over-acting on top of it is irritating.

I think just about everyone in the West is clueless about what Ueshiba really did in his Misogi practice. It obviously had some extensive martial body conditioning that he didn't show everyone. After seeing that film clip with Ueshiba doing power releases during fune-kogi undo, I just throw my cards on the table and stop trying to guess... obviously a lot was witheld

Since I'm pretty sure that just copying Ueshiba's external movement doesn't mean I can get his abilities I'm betting on mind stuff or breathing stuff.

Dan mentioned that Tenryu got the context of the ki stuff in 3 months so if this is accurate then the practice should be straight forward. Come to think of it Shioda and Tohei didn't sound like they trained with Ueshiba for that long(compared to people these days who tell me that you need to train for 30 years before you get anywhere) - okay so this is all second hand to me, but it gets me thinking that there's probably a more efficient way of training than the blind leading the blind.

Quote:

I can't get it to play for some reason, but I can see a still when I save the file. Think of it as the same sorts of cooperative students that take a dive when an Aikido teacher points down at the mat. I hate that bogus stuff in any martial art. Wu may be able to generate something of a pulse, but the over-acting on top of it is irritating

From my perspective I couldn't even work out what was meant to be happening. The guy is like moving an inch and these guys are jumping up in the air. But then when I see Shioda doing his stuff I reckon people are taking dives sometimes, but I've also heard first hand that he was pretty devastating.

Mike,
Thanks for the lecture, but you didn't answer my question I wanted to know specificly where you read or saw this event with Tohei and the monks. I read everything I can get my hands on and had just not come across this story yet. I have read everything available in english by most of the teachers you listed. When I said I didn't know much about Tohei I meant I have never trained Ki Society and I have only read his sort of Biography, Ki: A path that anyone can walk. My original question was

[For those of us who can't "think of Tohei pushing over zen priests" is there somewhere to see this or some reliable account?]

Thanks again
Brad

the edges of the sword are life and death
no one knows which is which
-Ikkyu Sojun

Mike,
Thanks for the lecture, but you didn't answer my question I wanted to know specificly where you read or saw this event with Tohei and the monks. I read everything I can get my hands on and had just not come across this story yet. I have read everything available in english by most of the teachers you listed. When I said I didn't know much about Tohei I meant I have never trained Ki Society and I have only read his sort of Biography, Ki: A path that anyone can walk. My original question was

[For those of us who can't "think of Tohei pushing over zen priests" is there somewhere to see this or some reliable account?]

The Ki Test. This is why Tohei Sensei went to the Zen monastery and pushed "all" the monks over. Not because he wanted to push them over but because they were not Mind and Body Unified. Because it is not good enough to have the form down. The Ki Test reflects perfectly what is in the Mind without a life and death situation or without 20 years of staring at a wall. These forms are fine and if one really wishes to "wake-up" and live life to its fullest then Shin shin Toitsu Aikido is as good a way as I have seen.

Last edited by tedehara : 05-04-2006 at 05:02 AM.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.About KiAbout You

Read where Tenryu was training with Ueshiba. What was he doing?
Pushing, everywhere, upstairs, up hills etc.
Read where Ueshiba admonsihed him to concentrate on T-H-A-T-type of stuff.
Read where after only three months
THREE MONTHS!!
Ueshiba dismissed him and said there is nothing more I can teach you. With what you know now you can go and be unbeatable.
Be what? Unbeatable?
Gee..any of that sound familair?

What or why do you suppose that a Sumo guy had such an advantage to learn? There are specific reasons.

Go read the fighting spririt of Japan : Harrison
In it he trains with Kanos Nephew after giving a large cash donation The nephew agrees to show him somthing rare. Takes him to...........an Aikijujutsu guy. What does he do??
Pushes.........
Does all Manner of things to push and pull and cannot be moved then
Wham.....power generation "no inch" punch.
Then Harrison asks about a 6th dan holder (Judo) about these mysterious powers. The guy says when the Judo guy is on his Judo game he is difficult to beat-when he uses these powers he cannot be thrown

Anyway, Upoon further questioning Harrison asks Do amyn men know these skills. He is told...no, only a few. This was in the 1920-30's

2006
Most people don't know.
Some have been shown and openly stated they don't want to do the work.
Others say they will.and don't.
What's changed?

Unfortunately, Dan's pretty much right on. A certain number of people recognize and know, in varying degrees, that this stuff is blatantly missing from most of what westerners are calling Aikido, Karate, TaiChi, etc., etc., and most people sort of hear the conversation but don't feel that it affects them and their status or their curiosity and drive enough to make them go out and really look hard.

I personally take the view that these conversations are only productive with the younger, enthusiastic group of up-comers who will lead the next generation... it's a rare adult with status and name who will apply him/herself to what turns out to be almost a discipline within itself.

But it doesn't hurt to throw the challenge out there because there is always that group who take it up and become the next set of goats... and there will always be a division between the sheep and the goats.

Dan mentioned that Tenryu got the context of the ki stuff in 3 months so if this is accurate then the practice should be straight forward. Come to think of it Shioda and Tohei didn't sound like they trained with Ueshiba for that long(compared to people these days who tell me that you need to train for 30 years before you get anywhere) - okay so this is all second hand to me, but it gets me thinking that there's probably a more efficient way of training than the blind leading the blind.

I agree. This stuff can be laid out logically and systematically, but you still have to be shown how to do it, sort of like riding a bicycle... no amount of telling you will really get you there.

Quote:

From my perspective I couldn't even work out what was meant to be happening. The guy is like moving an inch and these guys are jumping up in the air. But then when I see Shioda doing his stuff I reckon people are taking dives sometimes, but I've also heard first hand that he was pretty devastating.

Johan, just accept that in too many Asian martial arts there is a certain amount of over-acting by many students. It's a fact of life. If you've been around Aikido for any time you must have seen it. Always remember that there are sheep and there are goats.

Unfortunately, Dan's pretty much right on. A certain number of people recognize and know, in varying degrees, that this stuff is blatantly missing from most of what westerners are calling Aikido, Karate, TaiChi, etc., etc., and most people sort of hear the conversation but don't feel that it affects them and their status or their curiosity and drive enough to make them go out and really look hard.

I personally take the view that these conversations are only productive with the younger, enthusiastic group of up-comers who will lead the next generation... it's a rare adult with status and name who will apply him/herself to what turns out to be almost a discipline within itself.

But it doesn't hurt to throw the challenge out there because there is always that group who take it up and become the next set of goats... and there will always be a division between the sheep and the goats.

FWIW

Mike

Unfortunately, Mikes pretty much right on as well

The real task is letting the ego and preconceptions go. I have stopped teachers dead in their tracks and they didn't even want to know how. For me. it would be the very first words out of my mouth. I don't care where I was or who I was in front of. You can have the idea of students opinion of their teachers -as a pressure to deal with or reputation to live up to. I'd rather learn. I applauded Ikeda attending a Systema class at the Expo.
I played Judo with a high ranking guy once at a seminar. He couldn't throw me at all. Not even once. He knew I was doing something different. But never, not even once asked me what I was doing. My guys were well pleased, which is reverse ego, it isn't about that. I told them to "Knock it off." All I said was "Which of us would you choose to be? The unknown student who could not be thrown, or a teacher who remains ignorant of a method that just bested him? I know who I want to be."
Stay ...a student of the arts.

I have been open in that I thought the CMA were these silly twirly whirly things. I thought the internal skills I had were it. Now I see they are pieces of a larger picture. I was.....wrong. I don't mind being wrong. Means I Iearn. The CMA are deeper in their exploration. But again it appears even there it is limited as well. As well the explorationof these skills outside of a given venue to free style fight is about non-existent. Everyone should be open to these things even outside of martial skills. they are a better way to move, work and live.

Anyway, I applaud those who will risk being wrong and are willing to learn new things. I have been off playing with CMAer's for months now to at least try to find more things to incorporate into what I do.

I've read that some of his students just didn't understand the things he said to them. Now, they might have just attributed his speeches to Omoto Kyo, but what if they weren't? What if Ueshiba was actually telling them in his own way how to get to some of the levels he was on? What if it was his way of teaching.

Hi Mark,

I think you have to consider that Ueshiba worked within a certain cosmology internally. And he probably expressed that cosmology every time he tried to describe what he was doing. And if you don't buy the cosmology, and don't understand the value behind it...you lose the message.

Tohei didn't buy the cosmology, so he sought the value behind it elsewhere. And apparently found something.

Shioda didn't buy the cosmology, but he did buy the value of the methods behind it...and somehow got something.

Shirata Sensei...seems to have bought at least a portion of the cosmology, and from all acounts, got something of the value.

I believe there are others too (Yamaguchi, Kato, the list goes on and on, and you can see the differences between them). As well as others who didn't get as much of the special skills. Each took what they could...and developed that to what extent they could. Case by case...

We as students need to be doing the same thing...but too often we really don't want to do the work. As both Dan and Mike have said.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

I, for one, am not sure that Morihei was ever on board with spreading "true" Aikido, as he knew it and practiced it, to the whole world. His son was the driving force behind the Aikikai, and the movement to spread it. In the beginning Morihei was against the idea, and he has been said to have gotten on board with the idea later. But to what extent? Perhaps he was just content with people learning the very basic movements and techniques, and learning the basic philosophy behind it, while he focused on his own practice, teaching what he knew to his selected students, and let whatever might trickle down trickle down where it may.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer

I think you have to consider that Ueshiba worked within a certain cosmology internally. And he probably expressed that cosmology every time he tried to describe what he was doing. And if you don't buy the cosmology, and don't understand the value behind it...you lose the message.

Tohei didn't buy the cosmology, so he sought the value behind it elsewhere. And apparently found something.

Shioda didn't buy the cosmology, but he did buy the value of the methods behind it...and somehow got something.

Shirata Sensei...seems to have bought at least a portion of the cosmology, and from all acounts, got something of the value.

I believe there are others too (Yamaguchi, Kato, the list goes on and on, and you can see the differences between them). As well as others who didn't get as much of the special skills. Each took what they could...and developed that to what extent they could. Case by case...

We as students need to be doing the same thing...but too often we really don't want to do the work. As both Dan and Mike have said.

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,
Read your blog on training. Sounds like you had a great time.

As for the topic here. I don't have any disagreements with what you've said. My post was in response to a theory that Ueshiba didn't teach everything he knew to his students.

My working theory is that Ueshiba *did* teach everything he knew to his students. I just don't believe that they got it all. Just as you wrote above, some got it elsewhere but not all of it. I'm not saying anything about the skill levels of the students. I'm merely saying in a working theory that Ueshiba *did* teach everything he knew, somehow, someway, sometime.

Yes, that theory trickles down into the students. Again, as above, some got portions of things from Ueshiba and from outside training. Some progressed rapidly in one area and some went off in their own direction and some just kept quietly training. None of that really matters to my theory.

Probably the only way you'll ever get corrolation to my theory is to gather all the students in one place and go through what they learned, how they picked it up, and at what level they are at compared to how they viewed Ueshiba's level of knowledge. But since many of the students are gone now, we'll never see that happen.

Probably the only way you'll ever get corrolation to my theory is to gather all the students in one place and go through what they learned, how they picked it up, and at what level they are at compared to how they viewed Ueshiba's level of knowledge. But since many of the students are gone now, we'll never see that happen.

Ah well, it's only a theory ...

Thanks,
Mark

Well Stanleys interviews are pretty telling. Gathering everyone in a room with new questions would be great, but dismissing decades of cross referenced research is never a good idea.
Not the least of which is "what were you learning?"
one after the other, after the other....all of them...."We were learning Daito ryu."

Then when he retired and came back to hombu.
"What are you doing? This is not my AIkido!"

to add to your idea and Dan's point...we can always do the cross-referencing physically on our own. We can go to seminars of the students who seem to have gotten something special of Saito, Shioda, Tohei, Shirata and on and on. We can get the 'laying on of hands' up close and personal, and try to figure things out...to steal the technique. Why do you think I go other places? It's certainly NOT because I don't have faith in my own teacher. It's because his skill and work don't give me a pass. I still have to walk this road myself.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

We can go to seminars of the students who seem to have gotten something special of Saito, Shioda, Tohei, Shirata and on and on.

And of course you can always do what Ueshiba did and look around everyplace you can, take other arts, etc. Hey....... that's what Tohei, Abe, and a bunch of others did. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. And weirdly, after doing that, Ueshiba seems to have captured the "big picture" of what is considered the epitomy of Asian martial arts, even in Chinese martial arts.

Well Stanleys interviews are pretty telling. Gathering everyone in a room with new questions would be great, but dismissing decades of cross referenced research is never a good idea.
Not the least of which is "what were you learning?"
one after the other, after the other....all of them...."We were learning Daito ryu."

Then when he retired and came back to hombu.
"What are you doing? This is not my AIkido!"

Cheers
Dan

Dan,
Agree with you on Stanley. And I haven't dismissed that, but there is a lot of information there and it's taking quite a while to go through. One day, maybe I'll be able to corrolate stuff better, but right now it's a working theory that I don't put a whole lot of time into.

I just wonder what it was that the students were doing that wasn't his Aikido? And what was his version of Aikido?

Dan,
Agree with you on Stanley. And I haven't dismissed that, but there is a lot of information there and it's taking quite a while to go through. One day, maybe I'll be able to corrolate stuff better, but right now it's a working theory that I don't put a whole lot of time into.

I just wonder what it was that the students were doing that wasn't his Aikido? And what was his version of Aikido?

Mark

Hi Mark
Lots of pieces to a puzzle to put together. With many interesting clues. Some are convinced they know, others speculate, some are undecided and researching.
If we love training-perhaps its even more to explore.
Cheers
Dan

to add to your idea and Dan's point...we can always do the cross-referencing physically on our own. We can go to seminars of the students who seem to have gotten something special of Saito, Shioda, Tohei, Shirata and on and on. We can get the 'laying on of hands' up close and personal, and try to figure things out...to steal the technique. Why do you think I go other places? It's certainly NOT because I don't have faith in my own teacher. It's because his skill and work don't give me a pass. I still have to walk this road myself.

Best,
Ron

Cross training is great. My last venture, the Ellis Amdur seminar, was awesome. My next venture will take more time and money, though, but well worth it for me.

But, being as low as I am on the totem pole, there really isn't much chance to get some hands on time with the current shihans. The seminars offer an opportunity to get a small glance at different methods, but they never give anything in-depth. You've got to keep going back or put in some time. If you're at a decent level, three good months should work. But who's at that level and can devote that amount of time? I'd love to be able to do that.

For now, though, cross-training is great and an opportunity to see the techniques of others, but I also understand that a weekend isn't enough time to get a solid grasp on methodology. Least not for me.

Hi Mark
Lots of pieces to a puzzle to put together. With many interesting clues. Some are convinced they know, others speculate, some are undecided and researching.
If we love training-perhaps its even more to explore.
Cheers
Dan

Dan,
That first sentence is an understatement for me. LOL! Seems like too many clues at times and not enough at others. The only thing I know is that I really, really don't know enough yet to begin to grasp certain things. That's why I train. I can see a progression level through my past and while I can't see as clear a progression in my future, I do know one is there. And not training makes it go away. You're right, though, training creates a whole lot more to explore.

And of course you can always do what Ueshiba did and look around everyplace you can, take other arts, etc. Hey....... that's what Tohei, Abe, and a bunch of others did. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. And weirdly, after doing that, Ueshiba seems to have captured the "big picture" of what is considered the epitomy of Asian martial arts, even in Chinese martial arts.

FWIW

Mike

Mike,
That's what I'm trying to do. I've got two other arts lined up and I'm about to begin them. Should be interesting. Not a whole lot of CMA here, though. Unless you know of one in the middle of West Virginia?

Not a whole lot of CMA here, though. Unless you know of one in the middle of West Virginia?

Finding other arts is easy.... finding someone who really knows another art is very hard.

Frankly, the years have taught me that most of the Asian martial arts taught in the West are usually some kind of empty shell of what the actual art is. If I had it to do over again with my training, I'd probably only be able to find a teacher or two for any given art that I would consider worth my while. We all get sucked into that stuff, unfortunately.

I used to joke about rednecks who owned CB radios because they'd buy one, use it, pick up the lingo, and then within a couple of months start giving advice on "linear amps" and "side-band" like they were electrical engineers. A lot of the martial arts in the West is on the CB-radio level (read some of the karate and judo forums on E-Budo for an example). The trick is to avoid the CB-radio guys and the big strong guys who can kick-butt because they're big, strong guys but who claim it's their martial arts knowledge.

I.e., it's a quicksand swamp out there and you just have to decide exactly what it is you want to do, why you want to do it, set time limits, allow for false scents, and then take your best shot.

Finding other arts is easy.... finding someone who really knows another art is very hard.

I've encountered that a lot even in my relatively short time of training, although by all accounts Tohei and Shioda were doing magical things by now In any case I may not have all the cards but I kind of know what I'm looking for so it's just a matter of time and effort. From my experience I haven't had any negatives from politely asking a teacher if I could resist him or her or try and push them over etc.

Dan, it sounds like you've got something that's working for you - perhaps I missed the details in this thread or another thread but is it something that can be explained?(Or is it the ground path and fascia development that MIke has described)

That was an interesting article - I've always been interested in Tohei's stuff but from my experience with Aikidoka from Ki society and Kenkyukai, most of the people at my level or above have the same trouble with the ki stuff that I do. Instructors of 30 or 40 years were able to do stuff to me, but that's pretty normal no matter what Aikido they do. I can't seem to see that they necessarily have a greater level of "ki" development that at any other dojo - kind of what the initial writer of the article was saying. I have noticed other health benefits from "ki" breathing though. It's interesting though that later down the article that Bob Jones implies that ki breathing is the easiest way to develop ki, but he also mentions that it is not meant to improve Aikido.

Those certain number of people could be wrong in their belief that things are "missing" based on people not having the skill that O'Sensei had.

In Ueshiba's writings, and the writings of many Chinese masters, I don't read them placing much, or any, emphasis on tricks.

Uhm....sorry but you'd be wrong. Go read and you will see many, many instances of these things. Ueshiba did them many, times. You will also read where he made guys push him all the time. Up stairs, up hills in the dojo. Etc.
Just what.........do you suppose he was doing?
Training.
And it became patently obvious that he shared little of the reasons why with others.
Oh well.
Think of them as demonstrations of a skill rather than a trick and it may help. The skills are usable in everyday life and in fighting.
The Jo -trick is the result of good body skills.
Skills that will help you shovel better, or kill with a spear.
Lift a mounted tractor tire or wear armor and throw.
Push a cow or horse aside who has brushed you into the back of the stall, or slam a guy onto the ground.
All the same power base.

As for Ueshiba's writting and talking...the guys who trained with him everyday couldn't understand his lectures either. Chiba was quoted in AJ that they could not wait for Ueshiba to stop talking so they could train.
Cheers
Dan

I have seen many old farmers and cowboys in my youth in Oklahoma that demonstrated many of the internal skills being discussed when throwing a bale of hay into a wagon or dumping a steer on it's side during spring branding, or, as you said, shoving a horse or cow around, etc. They don't look at it as anything separate from tools needed to do the job. Some are good at it and others aren't. My dad apprenticed to a blacksmith 4 years after Oklahoma became a state. He was 9 years old and worked as a smithy (along with his regular chores around the farm) until he was 30. He was a very powerful man until he died at 90. He didn't have a clue how he did it though.

Fortunately, we have available tools that we can learn this sort of thing in systematic ways if we have the sense to identify it and the courage, determination, and patience to develop it. It ain't magic for sure.

Yeah I agree .There is an old axium about Farmers and fishermen being the "strongest" people. You know I live in the country and chop wood and I blacksmith as well. I think allot of people want the skills to be sexier than they are and so they make them all esoteric.
Its like putting a teacher on a pedestile artifically in your mind:
Its gives lazy students an excuse
"He so good I'll never get there." So they don't work as hard.
And it affords the less talented the:
"Excellence by affiliation" cop out.

When I show guys and HAND them the tools to work it at home...many still don't do it. And they see me every week!!....argh!
I always chastise them that I am the only one with perfect attendance and whenever I ask who did home work-I'm always in the group. Young people have an aversion to w-o-r-k.

The grand debate is what percentage of the skills came naturally to farmers, fishermen and such, or had to be taught and learned and then where did the mind/intent/ connection and breath work come in. Slinging hay with a fork is an easy transition to spear. and pushing a horse with Fajin was probably very useful as well. And there are body-connection things that are directly relevent to work and load bearing. The breath work is what I have been playing with for years. But because of what we do I still get bogged down in the banging and rolling aspects and bringing guys through that.
What else is new right?

I am trying to swing the fall Session to come down and see ya. I'm taking Kate to Ireland as a trade-off for Japan last year. So hopefully I am buidling up Husband points. Man did I marry well.
cheers
Dan