Max Msp FX Genius wanted by NYC production studio

We’re looking for a Max Msp Jedi to help develop and conceptualise vocal FX treatments for an album we’re mixing throughout May/June. In a nutshell you will be working on straightforward vocal transformers to help bring out the meaning of the lyrics. The position was not budgeted for and therefore unpaid however it is a genuinely awesome opportunity for programmers to get their names out there. Due credit will be given on the album.

Velvet Code, an electro synth-rock band in NYC signed to a distribution deal through an arm of Warner Music Group, we’re in final production mode for our upcoming album, set to be released this summer. Velvet Code has generated massive interest on myspace with over 38,000 friends and 4,000 plays a day. They were ranked the #1 Electronic act in the months of February and March on Reverbnation, and are on rotation on over 100 podcasts around the world. A major promotional campaign has begin at Hot Topic stores in New Jersey with a showcase scheduled in June for Hot Topic Corporate. The band is also scheduled to appear on Fearless Music TV in April.

Oliver Hammett schrieb:
> The position was not budgeted for and therefore unpaid however it is
> a genuinely awesome opportunity for programmers to get their names
> out there. Due credit will be given on the album.

Wouldn’t it be fare to take the existing budget (as there seems to be
one) and just cut all other positions to pay that one? The "awesome
opportunity" will apply for all I guess. Else wise you end up getting
what you pay for, which might be less than without a "Max/MSP Jedi"

I’d keep my hands off. If nobody gets paid it might be fine…

Sorry for the rant, but it seems too well known… "Do it for the
publicity…" But beware its not granted that it will help, could even
be the opposite…

Quote: Bertrand Fraysse wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 19:42
—————————————————-
> You should use [*~ 0] to process the vocals.
> You can use it on every parts of the tracks with the same efficiency.
—————————————————-

LOL, your sarcasm serves you well, you are indeed a
powerful Max jedi…

I have worked for free in the past. But it really has
to be a pretty cool project. They tend to be projects
where the artists forgo any attention to themselves in order
to advance the artistic concept. I don’t sense any altruism
here…

If I am going to put a lot of work into coming up with cool
effects and get no money, hell I’ll do that for myself.

> We’re looking for a Max Msp Jedi to help develop and conceptualise
> vocal FX treatments for an album we’re mixing throughout May/June.
> In a nutshell you will be working on straightforward vocal
> transformers to help bring out the meaning of the lyrics. The
> position was not budgeted for and therefore unpaid

If it’s important enough to your album, then it should be important
enough to budget for it. You aren’t getting the mixing or mastering
engineers to work for publicity, are you?

> however it is a genuinely awesome opportunity for programmers to get
> their names out there. Due credit will be given on the album.

It’s good that you’ve considered the credit angle but publicity does
not pay the rent, especially for people living in NYC. I know plenty
of people who could do this, but not for nothing. If you can afford
the studio, then you can afford to hire someone, and there are plenty
of Max Ninjas in NYC. I think that even a small fee helps as a show
of good faith, so I’d urge you to reconsider. Play an extra live show
and put the proceeds towards your Jedi, remembering also that you get
what you pay for…

The other step would be also to start learning Max/MSP. There’s
plenty of people/places that offer Max lessons in NYC (this guy
included), and you’ll find that it’s a really good sonic investment.

Also, you should probably check out Pluggo and the other various plug-
ins that Cycling ’74 and other Maxers produce.

I know this project isn’t for everyone & I completely understand any reticence. It seems everyone wants free labor in the music business these days..

There are many ways you could get involved with the Velvet Code project.Even if pre-existing patches are compiled for Pluggo & licenced for our use, it’s still going to help us animate the vocal in a more unique way + you’ll get credited accordingly.

Essentially we’re about building forward thinking relationships. Not to get ahead of ourselves.. but from what I’ve seen/heard achieved with Max, I think there could be a niche for outsourcing or even representing the top programmers in New York through a top studio like ours.No one likes to name drop but check out our track record, it speaks for itself – http://www.beat360.com

If you’re open for discussion, drop me an email or call (number on site)

perhaps it is sacreligious and/or obvious to say but Max/MSP is not
the only program for processing voice. There are tons of plugins both
free and otherwise that do some pretty jedi-like things to the voice.

Oliver Hammett schrieb:
> No one likes to name drop but check out our track record, it speaks
> for itself – http://www.beat360.com

But this "offer" dropped your reputation already a lot, the better names
you have, the better you could pay.
(I couldn’t find any track record on taht site btw…)

And to get this band stand out, you need someone really good, she should
get all royalties if it would start off, if it doesn’t its lame as any
wedding job for the cv… (and wedding jobs pay usually fair…)

I’m very sorry that our post has got you so furious but I feel your comments are unfair.If you were to call me & discuss (as some have) I think you’d recognise the opportunity & see we’re not out to exploit starving programmers..

to clarify

1. we are about win:win relationships. In this particular instance there isn’t money as it’s a self financing, independent band with a digital distribution deal (these days amounts to little more than Itunes placement & use of the labels marketing machine)

2. this is our first venture into Max territories. Having never worked with Max Msp programmers before, there is a certain amount of consideration/evaluation and education this end. Our thinking being that, this project is a great opportunity to reach out & see who we can build relationships with in this area & how these relationships could work. As well as record production, we are plugged into tv, film & games development – it would certainly be good to know effective, talented & easy to work with programmers for the sound design side of things.

getting paid in the music industry is rarely black and white in our line we do ‘on spec’work all the time..You mix/produce one track for no money, demonstrate your ability then get hired to do the album – it’s the nature of the beast.You could always provide us with some example treatments and quote your terms for future reference rather than flatly dismiss.

I think it’s too easy to shoot people & ideas down without giving them a chance/the benefit of the doubt. If you’re not interested, I respect that 100% but i think it’s unfair to try & discredit us + dissuade hungry programmers who are open for discussion.

Oliver Hammett schrieb:
> I’m very sorry that our post has got you so furious but I feel your
> comments are unfair.

First, thanks for a valuable response, I apologize for my ranting, but
as you can imagine there is a reason behind it. And I think its possible
to put the whole deal on the table. That has to have an offer as well…
(Which I didn’t have the feeling it was…)

> 1. we are about win:win relationships. In this particular instance
> there isn’t money as it’s a self financing, independent band with a
> digital distribution deal (these days amounts to little more than
> Itunes placement & use of the labels marketing machine)

I think all these projects will only work out, if all participants are
equally members of the whole game. That would mean, first is personal
sympathy (you need to like the band), any profit has to be shared (it is
aimed at profit as I see it). Actually that last point is what I was
missing… That means, if it is a succes, there is payment, if it isn’t
its for learning the game…

> 2. this is our first venture into Max territories. Having never
> worked with Max Msp programmers before, there is a certain amount of
> consideration/evaluation and education this end. Our thinking being
> that, this project is a great opportunity to reach out & see who we
> can build relationships with in this area & how these relationships
> could work. As well as record production, we are plugged into tv,
> film & games development – it would certainly be good to know
> effective, talented & easy to work with programmers for the sound
> design side of things.

Yes, that was the other point I thought there is a missing balance. In
the 80′s I had been assistant in Berlin with some big acts in a big
Studio. I was there to learn, and still got at least a little
compensation. I might have done it for less, but it was a matter of
respect for the studio, and I did learn a lot.
This taking an opportunity to learn might be enough for compensation.
You get taught, and instead of paying, you work…
But what you are looking for is something you want to learn from. What
you offer is your big amount of contacts, which might be valuable or
not. Its probably less valuable for those who could offer a lot of
learning to you, and more for those who don’t know Max that well…
You might just get what you pay for, which could mean you didn’t learn
what you could have learned (without recognizing it…)

> You could always provide us with some example treatments and quote
> your terms for future reference rather than flatly dismiss.

I fear our taste doesn’t have so much in common (maybe less than our
clients list…), I do live experimental processing, but I do love to
dance to music as well… ;-)

I just felt the need to point to some unclear parts of the offer, it is
also to protect the members of the community to get into experiences
they might later regret. If the deal is clear, then there is no problem.
I wrote this also to give you a hint how you could find someone who
could really push that project. You just have to think about, what you
personally would throw into the equation, to benefit from this project.
If you want to learn, it ain’t be for free…

I an all fairness, you are right. We should not judge anyone
and assume thier intentions are selfush or do not have the
greater community in mind.

I think a lot of what you are encountering is a reaction to
anything that smacks of the "music business". I would say that
in general, the Max community is dedicated to the altruistic
advancement of the music and visual arts. There are so many
contributors who have donated their hard work and research to
advance this cause. I guess that is why a lot of people
react negatively to anyone who may give the impression of
having selfish motives.

Again, I am sure there may be those out there who might be
interested and might benefit from your collaboration. We are
all free to express our selves as we wish. Best of luck in
your endeavors.

Quote: polypx wrote on Sun, 27 April 2008 09:37
—————————————————-
> I agree this thread is very funny, but I think a lot of people are being unfairly hostile to a rather innocent request from Ollie.
—————————————————-

I was trying to inject some humor without wanting to sound unduly hostile.

While I do understand that there are many musical projects where everybody is working on a tenuous footing, I have also seen, all too often, people exploited with promises of "further down the road there will be a great opportunity…"

It’s often the "tech jockeys" who get hit by this, sometimes getting neither kudos nor remuneration, and I have seen some pretty blatant exploitation. That said, I’ve seen certain situations where the tech staff are the only ones with a steady salary. But I fear the former situation leaves a bitter aftertaste.

Given that Ollie isn’t just dropping the thread, there’s some reason to take him at face value, that he really hopes to get some form of long-term return value to whomever he can find to work on this project.

I’m not going to tell anyone how to do their business, but I would like to just suggest that it would encourage good faith if the (rather vague) promises of long-term benefit were to be coupled with some kind of more concrete, more immediate benefit. Studio time in exchange for development time (as suggested by Kevin) is one idea. There are other kinds of quid pro quo you could think about. Be creative.

I will give you one piece of advice, though. Your "Max Geek" is a musician. I have yet to meet a person who got involved with Max for the sheer geekiness of it all. People get involved with Max because they have musical ideas that require technical solutions and find that they can get their heads around the technical demands of Max (or Supercollider/ProTools/Cubase/whatever) as well. A few of them are very fine musicians, indeed. If you think about your prospective "Max Jedi" as a musician, you may find more ways to make a valuable partnership in ways that go beyond little green pieces of paper.

> I will give you one piece of advice, though. Your "Max Geek" is a musician. I have yet to meet a person who got involved with Max for the sheer geekiness of it all. People get involved with Max because they have musical ideas that require technical solutions and find that they can get their heads around the technical demands of Max (or Supercollider/ProTools/Cubase/whatever) as well. A few of them are very fine musicians, indeed. If you think about your prospective "Max Jedi" as a musician, you may find more ways to make a valuable partnership in ways that go beyond little green pieces of paper.

Along these lines… I am very skeptical of people who ask for a max
tech dude to just fit some pieces together and/or add some cool
effects to their project. Often people who are not experienced with
max think IT can do this myriad of magical things when actually it is
the max programmer who is MAKING these magical things using the
program. Also, because of the complexities of many ideas (especially
when you get into algorithms and interactivity) the max programmer
usually ends up becoming more of a creative, collaborative partner as
ideas and possibilities are fleshed out.

I’ve wondered the same thing. Why Max? It kind of goes along with what I have learned from some of the responses to n00b posts here (including my own), that having a clear idea of what you want to do is nearly tantamount to having the actual working knowledge of the program itself. I don’t get a sense that there is a clear idea of what they want done. It sounds like what they want could be accomplished many different ways so I wonder what it is that leads them to Max as a solution.

They say "help develop and conceptualise vocal FX treatments" and "working on straightforward vocal transformers" but that could mean a lot. It’s the "develop and conceptualize" part that makes me lean to the side of many who have criticized. That could be a LOT of work and there’s nothing but "genuinely awesome opportunity" that can be offered? Really? Not even beer?! I mean I would at least expect some McDonald’s at one of the "concept meetings" or something!

I can see both sides and I understand when there actually is no money for a project and you have to rely on the kindness of your fellow humans. It’s tough and sometimes that is the only option you have. But as many have said, you will get what you pay for.