Yeah I did find that the New Yorkers I've met in particular are some of the most automatically prejudice against Texans people I've met. Not all of course, but it did amaze me how many supposedly open-minded, non-judgmental people immediately assume you're a redneck racist asshole if you're from Texas. Broaden your horizons a bit before you immediately judge. I have found there are just about as many prejudice, racist assholes (including such people) everywhere you go.

I abandoned this type of thinking several years ago, and I suggest you also broaden your horizons. There is a lot to love about every place on Earth.

Yeah, you're right. I guess from my experiences so far, that's been the case, but I know every place has it's charm.

Being in one city for only one night at times can give you weird perspective. I detested L.A after our first visit because I had a horrible experience there, but then we spent a month there and had a much better time. I definitely used to pass judgement on all cities based on one night (and honestly, more or less the one block near the venue, or how well the show went!)...

But yeah, I understand that's pretty foolish now. Didn't mean to dismiss the rest of Texas, I've just spent the equivalent of at least a month over the length of my life in Austin, so I know it the best. All I know from West Texas is weird rest stops, though.

You hit the nail on the head. Thomas Sowell actually does a great job of explaining how events unfold to create subsidies for lowered expectations and performance (fast forward to 2:30, but the whole dialogue is good):

During the Great Depression families were paid more assistance if they did not have a male head of household. Also, the NRA sent workers to jobs far away from their families. Add to the this the endemic racism prevalent in the government at the time and you have your modern ghettos where black workers were housed in the worst areas and segregated. Meanwhile, at home, an entire generation of African American children were growing up without a father figure.

Ever wonder why white poverty is concentrated in the mid-west and black poverty is concentrated in urban areas? ITS NOT A MISTAKE. It's what happens when your government stops serving you and starts controlling you.

Wow....that is profound, and tragic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor S

No child left behind changed it a bit, but yes, its generally how it works. I know if Philadelphia the highest dollar amount per child is spent in the worst districts.

This is how it is in Chicago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Except there is a choice. At least there is here in NYC. I would hope it's the case in other urban areas as well. Though I can't see it working elsewhere where things are more spread out.

Basically you have your zoned high school, with access to pretty much every other public school in NYC depending on your grades and/or a specialty test. So if you're poor and live in a lousy neighborhood you can still go to your school of choice or at least one a bit better than what you might be stuck with. A lot of normal zoned schools offer advanced programs too so that if you're a good student you can get a better education than the average curriculum of that school. You can also easily transfer to another as I did if you aren't satisfied where you first end up. Believe Earl did as well. So there are actually a ton of opportunities to move around. No one is stuck unless they're apathetic.

This is hugely victim-blaming. But blaming the victim aside, if it was that easy then everyone would be getting straight As and getting out of their bad high school. There are family issues, lack of resources within the school district, and lack of speciality programs. The big issue these days is cutting extra-curriculars, like music or after-school programs. These have been shown to provide structure and support for youth, but in a fleeting economy these have been the first things to go. After-school programs aside, you still have the urban environment, the drugs, the lack of parental figures, the poverty, and a bunch of other issues that feed into the school environment. I believe in the "if you work hard good things will come for you" mentality, but the number of hurdles are astronomical and should be considered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

...and go after parents who aren't sending their kids to school. Requiring kids to go to the district that they live in means every kid is guaranteed to have transportation.

Sadly, neither of these things are true. Believe you me. The CPS doesn't give a shit if you attend school or not, and they sure aren't going after the parents if they don't take their kids to school. This applies to rural ghettos as well (I know via my internship) and I assume it applies to urban settings outside of Chicago. Furthermore, transportation is never a guarantee. I know kids in the CPS that have a 2-hour commute both ways across numerous bus and train transfers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

If you let parents and kids choose which school to go to, the good schools would be crowded and children with parents who didn't care or don't have the means to send them to the better school would be unfairly left out.

This already happens...and is a sad reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

As for vocational schools, yeah. College isn't for everyone. Personally I think college is scam that we all pay too much money for. Most degrees aren't worth anything. Teens are indoctrinated into the mindset that they should major in something they "love" with no regard for their future.

You're paying a crap ton of money to a University so that you can ultimately get a degree that is supposed to help you get a decent job. Instead people pay Universities a crap ton of money to get a degree that won't help them with much of anything, and once they graduate they don't really know what to do with themselves because the only thing they've done their whole lives is go back to school. So what do they do? "Eh, I guess I'll just go for my Masters." This decision is made with seemingly no forethought put into what good that masters degree will actually do them in the long run. Instead they sink further and further into debt because of how easy it is to get loans to pay for something so expensive you'll be working for decades to pay it off.

College has me pretty jaded. I feel extremely fortunate that I got a scholarship and majored in something that allowed me to get a good job. I have a friend who was majoring in the same thing I was, dropped out after 2 years in, and is now making as much money as I do doing the same job I do. If I had actually payed for my college I'd be even more annoyed than I am at the idea I potentially wasted 4 years doing homework.

I think we should tell teens and future college students to major in something they -like-, not necessarily love, that has real world applications.

If you absolutely adore philosophy and can't imagine a life where you don't "do" philosophy, that's fine. Go to the library and check out books on philosophy. Read and study philosophy to your hearts desire. You don't need to pay a University an insane amount of money so that you can be bored in a classroom while a professor who doesn't really care about teaching drones on word-for-word on the same things you could have just read yourself.

I don't want to get too deeply into it, but here are my thoughts on college and the current school system. In bullet point/list form for easy consumption.

-Job/Work experience has been devalued by the perpetuated belief (which comes from the academic world) that you _NEED_ a college degree to be useful in the work environment

-The belief that Intelligence = "Good Grades/Success in school" has also been falsely perpetuated by the current academic world. Standardized tests, GPA, success in school = bullshit for being the "end all be all" determinant of intelligence.

-You should go to college because you are passionate about learning. This is where I disagree with the popular Internet sentiments. If you want to get a philosophy degree, or art degree, or music degree, then do it! This belief that only engineering degrees or business degrees are useful is total bullshit.

-Happiness is not measured by how much money you make. Many happy people went to college and got philosophy or art degrees. Likewise, success is not measured by your engineering degree. Look at most business tycoons, millionaires, entrepreneurs, or genius-to-CEO types. Most of them are college dropouts, didn't go to college, or took alternative education paths.

-The Administrators and Teachers in the world of academia KNOW THAT DEGREES DO NOT EQUAL JOBS. Colleges NEED to recruit kids. High school kids pay for colleges to fund research. It is no coincidence that colleges open their doors to just about anyone these days.

-Most people SHOULD NOT GO TO COLLEGE

-At one point, jobs like: cooking, interior design, and other craft jobs were highly valued without the attached BA or MA or whatever

-The market is flooded with people with college degrees, this is a problem.

-Academia is largely full of itself.

-It is hugely unfair to ask an 18 year old to map out their life, their passion, and their future career. Most 18 year olds should work for a few years, get some life experience, and then decide if they want to go to college. High schools push kids to pick a college because it is the expectation...this relationship is symbiotic. I believe that people who run the colleges encourage policy or advocacy that perpetuates the belief that high schools need to push kids into college. The net result is a cycle driven largely by money.

I regret going to college at 18. I'm glad I did in the long run, and I think ultimately I would have decided to attend, but I could have gained some valuable life experience working for 2 years instead of failing out of and hating engineering. I would guess-timate that about 3 out of 4 of my friends ended up altering their path during college. I would guess that about 2 out of 4 of my friends made DRAMATIC life changes. By dramatic I mean: dropping out of college, doing a total major change, doing a total college change.

That's like....75% of the people I know altered their course...
50% did so dramatically

I would also say that a lot of my friends who are graduating are in the position of: "I have a degree...now what the fuck do I do."

I happen to be in that boat too, with a largely useless (due to flooded market) psychology degree. Fortunately, I am passionate about psychology, and am passionate enough about what I learned in college to feel like I got something meaningful out of my education. I was also lucky enough to work at two real jobs during my college years, so I have real world work experience.

Instead of rushing off to the next degree mill, I am taking a year or two off to work and research graduate school. I intend to pursue a masters and possibly a PhD, but right now I am a bit burned out and want to get some more work experience, save some money, and enjoy being out of academia for a bit. By fall of 2012 I plan to be applying for grad school, but in the meantime I am applying the brakes.

This is turning into one of my most pointless, rambling posts yet...but I think the points I want to hit home are:

-We have devalued non-college jobs and non-college success
-College is not for everyone and academia is exploiting this
-The current structure for education has created degree mills, which in turn has devalued the arts

I, personally, would never tell someone who is very passionate about philosophy or art to avoid college. The reality is that some of the brightest, most interesting, and most seasoned people reside within academia. I have met some professors who have life-wisdom as well as field experience that is unparalleled. Books can certainly be enlightening, but your local library cannot rival the life story's or the experience of a seasoned faculty member. There was a point in time where it was understood that you go to college to get a degree because you are interested in learning more about that field of study. Nowadays people are no longer interested in learning, the new belief is that you get a degree because a degree=jobs. This is why we see a devaluing of the arts. Philosophy can be just as hard as engineering or physics, but the average Joe-slacker will have a much easier time doing minimal work in philosophy than engineering. This is just due to the nature of the redundancy checks built into the respective degrees. Engineering at face-value is much harder than philosophy. To say that someone who majored in philosophy could not invest as much time and work as someone who majored in engineering is fallacious.

I regret going to college at 18. I'm glad I did in the long run, and I think ultimately I would have decided to attend, but I could have gained some valuable life experience working for 2 years instead of failing out of and hating engineering. I would guess-timate that about 3 out of 4 of my friends ended up altering their path during college. I would guess that about 2 out of 4 of my friends made DRAMATIC life changes. By dramatic I mean: dropping out of college, doing a total major change, doing a total college change.

...

I happen to be in that boat too, with a largely useless (due to flooded market) psychology degree. Fortunately, I am passionate about psychology, and am passionate enough about what I learned in college to feel like I got something meaningful out of my education. I was also lucky enough to work at two real jobs during my college years, so I have real world work experience.

A debate about college and how necessary it is is great.

But it infuriates me when someone who goes to college, gets their degree, ends up getting a good job, then ends up telling everyone that college is worthless for most people and that you probably shouldn't go.

What??? Why is it you feel you can successfully navigate the system of going to college at age 18 and come out better on the other side, but that most people can not?

In this market, like it or not, a college degree is required for most decent paying jobs. Not all, I have personally seen many good ones that don't. But the vast majority do. And sure, you could be the next college drop-out billionaire. You could also be the next Michael Jordan. But I wouldn't bet on it.

I find it dangerous to tell high school kids that college is unnecessary, only to have them find out in five years time that not having a degree blocks tons of doors, and at which point it is likely FAR more difficult to go start college for any number of reasons (debt, marriage, kids, etc.). Give them the same chance you had to go to college when it is logistically easiest, and then let them figure it out just like you did whether it is right for them.

If you want to change the system, fine, but don't ask high school kids to take the brunt of the risk to change the system for you.

But it infuriates me when someone who goes to college, gets their degree, ends up getting a good job, then ends up telling everyone that college is worthless for most people and that you probably shouldn't go.

What???

In this market, like it or not, a college degree is required for most decent paying jobs. Not all, I have personally seen many good ones that don't. But most. And sure, you could be the next college drop-out billionaire. You could also be the next Michael Jordan. But I wouldn't bet on it.

I find it dangerous to tell high school kids that college is unnecessary, only to have them find out in five years time that not having a degree blocks tons of doors, and at which point it is likely FAR more difficult to go start college for any number of reasons (debt, marriage, kids, etc.).

If you want to change the system, fine, but don't ask high school kids to take the brunt of the risk to change the system for you.

That's fine and ethical and all, but what if we turn it around:

What if high school kids genuinely don't want to go to college, and we push them into it. I mean, all I am saying is their are two sides to this coin.

But unfortunately you are right...a lot of jobs require college degrees. I blame part of this partially on academia. I believe many people in a hiring position use a college degree as a redundancy check or as a quick screening method. Some jobs do require a degree though: doctors, engineers, etc.

I know I said in my previous post that most people should not go to college. Let me amend that by saying: most people should not rush to make the decision to run to college. Most people should let it stew for a year or two. I'm living proof of that.

In my experience high schools push a one-sided view: college or failure. High schools should be more open-minded and offer multiple paths and options to youth. And this is where we get into total education reform. Starting at the bottom, instead of having mandatory math and science classes, we could let people pursue natural interests early on. If the education system was reformed kids might know earlier on what they want to do instead of taking "crash course in college 101" at age 18 because they were stuck in a shitty system that essentially pigeon-holes everyone into a set of narrow expectations and tells them what makes them smart or stupid.

What if high school kids genuinely don't want to go to college, and we push them into it. I mean, all I am saying is their are two sides to this coin.

Then they continue on to get a job as if they had never gone to college, perhaps with some debt, but also with knowledge of the college system that they can use to better decide if they want to go back later.

I think that's the far better option then finding out later you need a degree, but that's it's much harder to go back and get one because you've now established your life.

But it infuriates me when someone who goes to college, gets their degree, ends up getting a good job, then ends up telling everyone that college is worthless for most people and that you probably shouldn't go.

What??? Why is it you feel you can successfully navigate the system of going to college at age 18 and come out better on the other side, but that most people can not?.

You confusing the value of a degree with the value of the education in the real world. I don't think anyone is arguing that a degree isn't valuable, in that is helps you get a decent job (something that is proving less and less true), or doesn't have perceived value with employers. In the current system, a college degree is necessary, but what we're arguing against is the current system and not the value of its outcomes.

Talk to most HR professionals and ask them about how they view college degrees, and most would answer "It shows that you can start something and finish it."

I'm still paying back school loans for THAT? The government gave me tax-payer subsidized grants for THAT? I could have shown that with an internship or apprenticeship and saved about $100,000. And the sad fact is that no one can understand this until after they graduate and enter the work force because the ONLY narrative offered in grade-school is "YOU MUST GO TO COLLEGE OR YOU ARE A FAILURE."

This hugely victim-blaming. But blaming the victim aside, if it was that easy then everyone would be getting straight As and getting out of their bad high school. There are family issues, lack of resources within the school district, and lack of speciality programs. The big issue these days is cutting extra-curriculars, like music or after-school programs. These have been shown to provide structure and support for youth, but in a fleeting economy these have been the first things to go. After-school programs aside, you still have the urban environment, the drugs, the lack of parental figures, the poverty, and a bunch of other issues that feed into the school environment. I believe in the "if you work hard good things will come for you" mentality, but the number of hurdles are astronomical and should be considered.

I omitted this from my post, but it's not just academics. There are a lot of schools where music, art, technology, etc. is the focus. I went to one such school (though you did need at least average grades for that one, but isn't always the case) So in addition to normal classes you have least three periods a day of your focus. Plus there a number of more vocational schools.

And why is an urban environment bad exactly? All of NYC is an urban environment. I've never been to Chicago so perhaps everything is more segregated there? It seems like you have a pretty specific view of city life. It seem to me like a poor community would be much worse off in a more suburban/rural area where their options are limited and there's only one or two schools to a town.

Of course it depends on the teacher more than anything, but the better ones are drawn to better funded schools. I'm looking at ways at fixing the school system. You can't make a kid's father go back home or remove drugs from the streets. You need to think about what you can change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I regret going to college at 18. I'm glad I did in the long run, and I think ultimately I would have decided to attend, but I could have gained some valuable life experience working for 2 years instead of failing out of and hating engineering. I would guess-timate that about 3 out of 4 of my friends ended up altering their path during college. I would guess that about 2 out of 4 of my friends made DRAMATIC life changes. By dramatic I mean: dropping out of college, doing a total major change, doing a total college change.

That's like....75% of the people I know altered their course...
50% did so dramatically

I went to a liberal arts college at first majoring in biology though not sure what sort of career I wanted. I then attended a talk by returning alumni to see what happened to them after college. Not a single one out of the ten had a job even remotely related to their major. That freaked me out. I transferred to an art school the next year with the idea that it would at least prepare me for a career doing something I enjoyed.

So wrong...so very very wrong.

Art school is the most useless worthless thing you could possibly spend time and money on. I wish I stayed at my first college and just got a decent education and the full college experience . My BFA will never help in getting me an art related job. It'll be more helpful getting anything else, but art ones are purely based on your work. I taught myself more since I graduated with books and instructional videos (so much better being able to hand pick any teacher you want instead of being stuck with whatever the school happens to have) than I ever learned at school. I wasn't prepared in the slightest for the real world upon graduation. Should have dropped out but I felt like I needed the degree...and if I ever decide to do something other than art....I have my art degree for that. That's messed up.

Prof, I would be curious to hear how you imagine home-schooling through internet classes. Most students don't have the drive to learn on their own without adult supervision, and the fear of punishment and failure, unless they are truly passionate about a particular subject. And how young are you talking?

Art school is the most useless worthless thing you could possibly spend time and money on. I wish I stayed at my first college and just got a decent education and the full coProf, I would be curious to hear how you imagine home-schooling through internet classes. Most students don't have the drive to learn on their own without adult supervision, and the fear of punishment and failure, unless they are truly passionate about a particular subject. And how young are you talking?

There has to be supervision, without a doubt. This is usually provided by a stay-at-home parent. Is that available to everyone? Of course not, but there is no one answer that works for everyone. This is why central control does not work, because it enforces a top-down, universal approach.

Home schooling, charter schools, smaller/community based and controlled public schools, etc. ALL need to be considered as part of a comprehensive solution. They offer increase opportunity and in most cases, increase educational choice to the family, to help our students reach proficiency.

And none of this can happen until the money follows the STUDENT and not the SCHOOL. Most funds are currently pushed to the schools, so there really little in the way of finding real options (I do not believe shuffling a student from one centrally controlled school to another is choice). These funds need to be allocated per student, and allow them to be applied to choice of school for each family, whether it is a home school, charter school, or already established public school (which will benefit greatly from a reduction in student population).

And why is an urban environment bad exactly? All of NYC is an urban environment. I've never been to Chicago so perhaps everything is more segregated there? It seems like you have a pretty specific view of city life. It seem to me like a poor community would be much worse off in a more suburban/rural area where their options are limited and there's only one or two schools to a town.

Of course it depends on the teacher more than anything, but the better ones are drawn to better funded schools. I'm looking at ways at fixing the school system. You can't make a kid's father go back home or remove drugs from the streets. You need to think about what you can change.

I may not get a chance to respond to this until after my last few finals and my move back home/graduation. So in case I don't get to this for a few days, you can simply look at Wikipedia. I mean, this is what I found under the article on Chicago Public Schools, this isn't even specifically about their success or lack thereof:

Quote:

The April 21, 2006 issue of the Chicago Tribune revealed a study released by the Consortium on Chicago School Research that stated that 6 of every 100 CPS freshmen would earn a bachelor's degree by age 25. 3 in 100 black or Latino men would earn a bachelor's degree by age 25. The study tracked Chicago high school students who graduated in 1998 and 1999. 35% of CPS students who went to college earned their bachelor's degree within six years, below the national average of 64%.[2]

Chicago has a history of high dropout rates, with around half of students failing to graduate for the past 30 years. Criticism is directed at the CPS for inflating its performance figures. Through such techniques as counting students who swap schools before dropping out as transfers but not dropouts, it publishes graduation claims as high as 71%. Nonetheless, throughout the 1990s actual rates seem to have improved slightly, as true graduation estimates rose from 48% in 1991 to 54% in 2004.[11]

I don't have a "pretty specific" view of city life...I have a view of city life since I live in Chicago. I can't generalize to other cities, but I know Chicago is among the worst in the nation if not the worst in terms of public schools. I know Detroit and Minneapolis are right behind (I'm guessing with St. Louis and Indianapolis and all the other main sites that I read about for Teach for America, a program which I no longer look all that positively on), and these are just cities...a lot of these problems extend to rural areas.

I can find more specific articles and studies and I will, but I encourage you to google around. I think your view does not generalize as easily as you think.

And why is an urban environment bad exactly? All of NYC is an urban environment. I've never been to Chicago so perhaps everything is more segregated there? It seems like you have a pretty specific view of city life. It seem to me like a poor community would be much worse off in a more suburban/rural area where their options are limited and there's only one or two schools to a town.

Of course it depends on the teacher more than anything, but the better ones are drawn to better funded schools. I'm looking at ways at fixing the school system. You can't make a kid's father go back home or remove drugs from the streets. You need to think about what you can change.

I dug up some hard numbers, just for fun, and oddly 2006 statistics report that New York city's largest school district had lower graduation rates than Chicago's largest school district. I haven't really dissected the statistics because I am lazy and at this point I don't want to invest too much time into this thread, but before I post any statistics let me piss into the wind for a minute.

I attended the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC). I was involved in Psychology, Gender and Women Studies and Education. Those were the 3 areas where I probed the most. I actually did a work study with a national Chicago based organization, so I extended my classroom experience a bit and got involved with some large scale educational gatherings. "Fixing" the Chicago Public School system is something that many people are working on. People literally dedicate their lives and careers to this issue. People get PhDs in school management or urban settings and work to try to bring resolution to the CPS problem. I cannot emphasis how many people have dedicated their lives to this issue. The take-home point here is that I am feeble and this is just a forum thread. I can highlight where there are deficits or inequities, I can point to problems, but I certainly cannot fix them.

Suggesting that if someone wants to succeed they need to work harder or attend a different school doesn't provide a very tangible solution to this issue. In the CPS, you are talking about an annual graduation rate of around 50%. The problem is large, it is systemic...and telling kids to go to different schools would literally displace thousands of kids. At this point we are talking about large scale social issues, things that are deeply imbedded and have a history. Like Prof S showed with the social welfare stuff, a lot of this is policy that goes way back. Back to immigration, early Chicago, and early racism.

Anyway, according to the stats released by CPS, in 2010 55.8% of students graduated high school, with 41.1% dropping out. That is actually an improvement from previous years.

Looking at the College enrollment fact sheet: “54.4% of CPS 2009 graduates enrolled in college – an increase of 1.9 percentage points from 2008.” There has been an increase in college enrollment for the past 5 years – a good thing. In 2009, 10,249 CPS graduates enrolled in college in 2009, which is an all time high for CPS.

Consider this: in 2009 there were 18,846 CPS graduates: 10,249 were enrolled in college, or 54.4%.
54.4% of graduates enrolling into college…isn’t bad right?

Before we look at things from a race perspective, we should frame these graduation and dropout rates compared to the national average.

2003-2004 stats reveal that, on average, CPS has higher dropout rates than the outlying schools as well as the national average:

The good news is that graduation rates in Chicago are rising…

So seemingly, it is not all doom and gloom…on the other hand, in 2009, only 48.1% of African American males and 59.5% of AA females enrolled in college…only 43.2% Latino males and 49.4% Latino females enrolled…

Of every 100 freshmen entering a Chicago public high school, only about six will earn a bachelor's degree by the time they're in their mid-20s, according to a first-of-its-kind study released Thursday by the Consortium on Chicago School Research.

The prospects are even worse for African-American and Latino male freshmen, who only have about a 3 percent chance of obtaining a bachelor's degree by the time they're 25.

The study, which tracked Chicago high school students who graduated in 1998 and 1999, also found that making it to college doesn't ensure success: Of the city public school students who went to a four-year college, only about 35 percent earned a bachelor's degree within six years, compared with 64 percent nationally.

...
- African-American and Latino students from Chicago high schools have the lowest graduation rates--lower than the national average for those groups and lower than their white and Asian peers from Chicago. Just 22 percent of African-American males who began at a four-year college graduated within six years.
....

So while there is an increase in College enrollment, and while around 50+% do enroll into college, the graduation rates are HORRIFIC.

According to the US Census Bureau, in 2008 71.8% of Bachelor degrees were earned by White people, 9.8% by black, 7.9% by Hispanic, and 7.0% by Asian. That’s a national number, btw, so when you stack that up to say…the 6 out of 100 people who get a degree who attended CPS…I mean the numbers are harrowing.

These are just the graduation and college RATES. These don’t even touch the social problems. Like the kids who see gang violence.

I guess in my next post I can link to all the Chicago gangs, the crime rates by area/neighborhood, and I can link to articles discussing mortality rates among CPS attendees.

I also propose several solutions that may or may not be steps in the right direction to fixing some of these issues:
1) More parent involvement
2) Longer school days and better school programs
3) Decriminalizing drugs like Marijuana and Crack
4) Figuring out how to tackle the anti-white feelings towards education within the Black community
5) Fixing Affirmative Action and Social Welfare