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Now, I haven't really posted in threads like this before (although I read through all of them). Bad things just seem to happen more and more, and we (I mean designers) have to do something.

First of all, contest holders can't be stopped from doing anything in any other way than being banned from the forum. So RULES will not work. What we need imo are 2 things:

1. Guidelines - I proposed this to Sarah, and even written notes about that (that was a month ago, I'll try to retype and upload it here or start a new thread soon). They would adress the issues we've had in the past and as well help a contest holder get the most out of his contest while being fair.

2. Designer collaboration - These threads are a great thing. Imo we just to move all this to the contests forum by boycotting contests from ch's that didn't pay in the past, protecting each other, advising contest holders, etc.

3. -- your thoughts? --

Once again, thanks Linda for starting this thread. I look forward to the contest forum becoming a better place for all of us.

Although I'm with everyone in most of these things, I think kosta is right in that rules won't work. What might work, in addition to "guidelines" and "designer collaboration", is the fee to sitepoint when holding contests - this would greatly reduce the amount of dead contests, and I think the contest holder's attitude towards the contest would be far more professional (...at least in real life, if a friend asks you to do a logo for very cheap, and you want the situation to become more professional, just ask for five euros in advance).

I also have to say that even though I hate deadline extensions, I totally understand it especially in logo design - you have to remember that the design chosen will be their company's image, their identity, and they are the ones who will see it day after day for years to come. If they're not satisfied with the designs submitted, I understand the deadline extensions. (And anyway, have patience, a week-long extension is nothing - I once had to remake more than 200 illustrations when the script-writer suddenly changed his mind after half a year into the project.)

Also, if a contest holder PM's a bunch of designers whose styles he'd like to see in his contest, I don't think there's anything wrong with that if they're not publicly named. However, if a contest holder chooses one designer, and still holds a contest, it's just plain wrong - he should first get a design from that designer, pay for it, and then hold a contest if he wishes to try and get an even better design (showing the design in the first post, so that people see what they have to beat).

Oh, and any feedback or constructive criticism to other designers should also be through PM.

Although I'm with everyone in most of these things, I think kosta is right in that rules won't work. What might work, in addition to "guidelines" and "designer collaboration", is the fee to sitepoint when holding contests - this would greatly reduce the amount of dead contests, and I think the contest holder's attitude towards the contest would be far more professional (...at least in real life, if a friend asks you to do a logo for very cheap, and you want the situation to become more professional, just ask for five euros in advance).

I also have to say that even though I hate deadline extensions, I totally understand it especially in logo design - you have to remember that the design chosen will be their company's image, their identity, and they are the ones who will see it day after day for years to come. If they're not satisfied with the designs submitted, I understand the deadline extensions. (And anyway, have patience, a week-long extension is nothing - I once had to remake more than 200 illustrations when the script-writer suddenly changed his mind after half a year into the project.)

Also, if a contest holder PM's a bunch of designers whose styles he'd like to see in his contest, I don't think there's anything wrong with that if they're not publicly named. However, if a contest holder chooses one designer, and still holds a contest, it's just plain wrong - he should first get a design from that designer, pay for it, and then hold a contest if he wishes to try and get an even better design (showing the design in the first post, so that people see what they have to beat).

Oh, and any feedback or constructive criticism to other designers should also be through PM.

Just my .02

First of all, thanks to all who have passed this thread on. I hope you who got an invite, pass it on to others as well. This is something that all designers should have a chance to add their input.

Imaze, I think you meant in your last sentence "from other designers". If you did, I agree. Also the issues of, "isn't your concept close to mine?". The contest threads are not a place to air grievances. Although we are not a "design team" we can at least look like a group of professionals.

About deadline extensions: I do disagree there. In the real world your client might get two or three concepts and choose one to have fine tuned to their preference. Here, when a contest holder gets many concepts, they should be able to choose one by the deadline they, themselves, have set at the beginning of the contest. If they can't, then, IMO they should declare the contest a draw and start fresh instead of asking for continual revisions of several designs within the thread.

It is ridiculous to assume that they need to extend their deadline for a week while waiting for "one more concept" to appear. In most cases where this has happened, what they are really waiting for is one more designer who they knew from the beginning would be entering. This shows a total lack or respect for those who have participated and busted their butt to get an entry in within the deadline.

I also think it shows a total lack or respect for others when one person says,
"Oh I'm working on a design, couldn't you just extend (your month-long contest) for one more (day,week, fill in the number) to give me a chance to finish it?" That is just BS.

In addition to doing a little design (which for me is more of a passion than a career), I am a professional writer and editor. I have worked on deadlines for years and believe me, my clients don't look kindly at me when I miss one! I very seldom need to ask for an extension and when I do, I always apologize profusely.

Clients who I have done design for are much the same way. You can't tell someone that you need another week to layout their brochure when their tradeshow is coming up in three days!

Linda Jenkinson"Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

In order to reduce dead contests, I think contest holders should pay a small fee to post their contest, around $10 or so, this could accumulate in a sitepoint account somewhere, and either go towards the site, or when there is a contest holder that leaves a contest dead, a portion of the account funds could be given to one of the designers who entered that contest, whoever is voted best design perhaps.

Perhaps to avoid rude/mean/degrading comments, a warning system could be implemented, I think VB has a warning system, when they get like 5 warnings, theyre automatically banned for a period of time?

Well I just had an experience. In a contest where someone commented I should be kept away. I didn't get a chance to enter, but I pmmed the contest holder that I had made a design and showed it to him.

Well he paid someone else for their design, now he's hitting me up to give him my design or sell it to him for 15.00. I can use elements out of it and make more than that. No way will I just turn my design over to him, especially after the snide comments made in that thread.

Well he paid someone else for their design, now he's hitting me up to give him my design or sell it to him for 15.00. I can use elements out of it and make more than that. No way will I just turn my design over to him, especially after the snide comments made in that thread.

Well this is another good point that not only effects the contest section but also SYS and the other "sell your wares" type sections.. It was mentioned in the SYS WAR thread but things were so heated I doubt anyone even noticed it.. the point is the little "pm, behind the back stuff"

I dont mean to go off topic but I think the two are very much related!

In SYS it was always amazing to be high bidder on something only to have them come back with a "PM bid" that outbid you. Now you sit back and say "ok are the BS'ing me to get me to bid more or do they really have a higher bid?"

Honestly you just dont know! And we have had other times when someone sold something only to PM the other bidders with copies of the script that ran the site etc! JUST plain UNCALLED FOR and UNDERHANDED!

Now I had someone PM me a layout for the contest Im running right now and I simply said "Post it in the thread" so EVERYONE knows whos who and whats what!

So in both contests and SYS or SYD it really should be setup so that if the bid, buy, offer ISNT in the thread it plain and simple doesnt exist! I know thats a tough one but it really makes everything going on with the thread more "transparent" ... I know I learned my lesson the hard way with bidding via PM! and I think Sarah knows EXACTLY what Im talking about!

I've told other folks that pmmed with suggestions for designs to me to post it in the thread. I want to be fair to all designers. This thing closed months ago. Now he's messengering me about it. Guess I am going to have to block him. Turns out he's outsourcing portions of a template he's trying to sell, and the client didn't like his first choice. That's not my problem. And I am not going to just give away my work because this is his second version. It's not my problem.

The idea of having to pay SitePoint to add a contest in an interesting one, but I don't think it would work. On the one hand, I could see a 5-10 dollar fee going into an account and maybe a SitePoint staff member could hold contests for things like business cards or ads, etc for SitePoint. It'd benefit SitePoint because, in the end, the site would get free graphic/web design, and it would benefit designers by adding very reliable contests (and more contests as well) to the site.
On the other hand, this would decrease the number of contest holders ($10 on top of $60, while still low compared to the "real world" can still prove prohibitively expensive). Also, instead of opening up a $85 logo competition, someone might lower the prize to compensate for posting fees. Also, the element of people who are coming here for the first time would decrease - I've seen a lot of contest holders post a $40 contest (bare minimum), get great results, and come back with successively large prizes. By increasing the minimum, there's less of a "weaning" period for contest holders to get used to the whole process and the worth of it. With this, the designers would come to lose out because those more inexperienced holders (although they as a group may only have a 75% reliability rating) won't be around anymore.

My only suggestions would be to have a couple of designers gain small administration privaileges (spelled incorrectly, of course ). I know I myself go through a few pages of a thread sometimes to find that the final page has a "_____ is the winner" "Payment received" conversation already there. If I (or any other designers) were given the ability to lock posts, I'd probably save myself and others a few minutes a day of "darn, this is already over" thoughts. Not a big deal, but such a small thing might be helpful.

A sticky post of paying contest holders would also be helpful. This isn't to say that "not-paying" people don't deserve their own posts, but this way people would KNOW that they have a great chance of an ending to the contest they enter. Again, any designer could easily lock an ended contest and add the payers name to a "stickied" good list. I think that'd add a bit of security.

Then, if you want to go a little further, you can have someone with editing abilities to delete "hey, this is the best entry in the competition" posts or edit the "I got invited and you didn't" details during threads and PM the poster. Technically, all you'd need is a generic "Please keep all posts regarding the quality of a designer's submissions limited until the end of the contest or, of course, feel free to privately PM them to him or her at any time." The latter would actually involve a tiny bit of conversation, I suppose, but in-thread comments could be easily taken care of.

Those three changes are all small, but, in this case, I think that a few small things could really pick up the morale of the area. I'd be willing to volunteer for the above-mentioned abilities if my help was wanted. Or, if you'd prefer someone else who frequently visits that area and is pretty calm in most cases, that'd be more than fine as well. For that matter, a pair of people working together (i.e. I'll send a message to in-contest posters and delete their comments, and you lock finished contests and add the contest holder's name to the stickied "good guys" post) would be great as well.

At this point, after writing these things so many times, these are probably the best suggestions I can make while being realistic.

thanks for the comments there, but I do have to point out that is what the moderators already do - but you do need to help us by reporting those posts. you will find that nearly all reported posts are resolved one way or another.

I get PM's from contest holders telling me to close the thread - and I close it, I guess it comes down to not hand holding and letting you all use your heads and report stuff that needs doing - so everytime you read contest closed report it saying contest closed.

it really is that simple

regarding the payers list - do you know how long that would be and how far back would I need to go

regarding the payers list - do you know how long that would be and how far back would I need to go

Almost as infinitely long as the list of praise you've received from thankful SP members, I'm sure.

I understand what you mean about reporting posts, and I'll do that in the future when I see them... in the case of locking finished contests, it just feels like unnecessarily adding extra work for you when you have to open the message, click the link, make sure the thread is done, and click "lock" as opposed to the original person noticing just hitting the "lock" button.

The main problem I'd have with a "blacklist" is that it turns into a conversation of "I hate it when people do this" or "I can't believe he didn't pay." If someone could come up with a simple thread listing the "buyer" (maybe in bold) with a link to the contest underneath for the 20-30 "bad guys" while somehow maintaining order within its pages, I'd be all in favor of that as well.

Whatever works and doesn't create a large increase in unncessary bother for you guys...

A blacklist from the moderators, not us. Contestants and contest holders alike can report posts and moderators - after negotiating with the involved parties - could add a name to the blacklist which would be a locked thread, ergo no possibility of anyone else complaining etc. The way I do it now is simply search through the posts of a contest holder and evaluate his/her recent contests (if there are any) and then decide upon entering a contest or not. With this method I've detected two so called "black sheep" who have started contests and did not pay the designer. I keep a list on my hard drive with usernames that have "ripped" designers off simply to potentially save myself time, effort and an ugly outcome.

A blacklist from the moderators, not us. Contestants and contest holders alike can report posts and moderators - after negotiating with the involved parties - could add a name to the blacklist which would be a locked thread, ergo no possibility of anyone else complaining etc. The way I do it now is simply search through the posts of a contest holder and evaluate his/her recent contests (if there are any) and then decide upon entering a contest or not. With this method I've detected two so called "black sheep" who have started contests and did not pay the designer. I keep a list on my hard drive with usernames that have "ripped" designers off simply to potentially save myself time, effort and an ugly outcome.

Sarah: I think one of the problems with report a post is the message in the report a post thing. It says "This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts. "

So I think a lot of people don't want to use that to report the innocuous comments in the contest threads. After all, it isn't rude when someone says, "Great design bunnydojo". (I'm smashing the bunny! ;0 - (just kidding bunny!) )

However it still singles out that design for further scrutinization which is both unfair to bunnydojo and to the rest of the contestants.

It also isn't "problematic" when I post to the contest holder, "Thanks for the pm, Sarah", but it does make the other entrants feel less than welcome.

One more example. In a recent contest I entered the feedback was, "That's not professional looking at all!" and to another designer, "That looks like something I could have done in paint". Well, in my mind, design is subjective and one man's trash is another man's treasure.

I think comments like that are very rude and I generally pull my work from contests like that when I see such posts whether directed to me or another contestant. But what would I report? ... and if I did what would you do about it? Certainly not ban a contest holder when other designers have worked hard to come up with concepts for the jerk.

Linda Jenkinson"Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

I think one of the most annoying aspects is runner-up prizes, I know other people agree with me. If they are really consolation prizes and the contest holder has already decided which one he prefers then surely these should be gratitude prizes and not require the design to be handed over. I have had a number of occasions recently when I have been asked to hand over a logo for about $20. One one particular occasion when a runner-up prize was awarded I was informed that they would be using all 3 logos and allowing their ceo to decide which one he prefered. Basically getting 3 logos for about $30 more than only receiving one.

Obviously from the contest holder's point of view this is great as they may not have to use the logo they paid out $100 for and can get away with using the one they paid $20 for. Maybe I'm just being overly picky, but this often feels like a slap in the face when they pay $20 for your logo and end up using it anyway. I suggest that the runners up prizes should be given without requiring the design, if the designer has the good grace to hand it over then so be it.

I'd just like to thank everyone who has PM'd me to agree with me, and to express their gratitude and request I join their contests recently. I'm sorry to have disappointed you all, but I may return to the contest boards at some point in the future!

Sarah: I think one of the problems with report a post is the message in the report a post thing. It says "This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts. "

So I think a lot of people don't want to use that to report the innocuous comments in the contest threads. After all, it isn't rude when someone says, "Great design bunnydojo". (I'm smashing the bunny! ;0 - (just kidding bunny!) )

However it still singles out that design for further scrutinization which is both unfair to bunnydojo and to the rest of the contestants.

I'm afraid I was once "one of those people"! I am a regular lurker in the contests forums and when I first started looking, I would make a comment like "cool font" or whatever. First I didn't read the rules and second I didn't even think it might single out someone's design. I was simply thinking "cool font." But, someone posted behind me basically saying not to do that so I learned.

I think one of the most annoying aspects is runner-up prizes, I know other people agree with me. If they are really consolation prizes and the contest holder has already decided which one he prefers then surely these should be gratitude prizes and not require the design to be handed over. I have had a number of occasions recently when I have been asked to hand over a logo for about $20. One one particular occasion when a runner-up prize was awarded I was informed that they would be using all 3 logos and allowing their ceo to decide which one he prefered. Basically getting 3 logos for about $30 more than only receiving one.

Obviously from the contest holder's point of view this is great as they may not have to use the logo they paid out $100 for and can get away with using the one they paid $20 for. Maybe I'm just being overly picky, but this often feels like a slap in the face when they pay $20 for your logo and end up using it anyway. I suggest that the runners up prizes should be given without requiring the design, if the designer has the good grace to hand it over then so be it.

I'd just like to thank everyone who has PM'd me to agree with me, and to express their gratitude and request I join their contests recently. I'm sorry to have disappointed you all, but I may return to the contest boards at some point in the future!

I agree. I had never thought of them using the design they received as a consolation prize... in fact I had never considered if I would or wouldn't send one if I received some type of payment.

However, I see now that accepting a consolation means handing your work over for less than value and to me that is what the guidelines are all about - receiving appropriate compensation for the value of the work.

Even if a concept doesn't win one contest, the designer can rework it to suit another client either in or outside of the forums.

Linda Jenkinson"Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

Consolation or second and third place awards should be just that and not require the turning over of the files. But that's one reason why I have refused to take part in that sort of award in the past.

Only once did I accept a second prize award and that occurred weeks after the contest ended, and the award was sufficient for the amount of effort I put into it. But contest holders should make it transparent what their motives are in the beginning of the contest.

Something just recently happenned that is just the opposite of deadline extension. They closed the contest early (a week), because they thought no more entries were coming. But that may not have been the case. They had been working with one designer of I think six who had entered. He's design was good, but who knows what other designs may have come in before the end of the deadline.

I see now that they have edited out the deadline part of their first post. But those of us who had subscribed to the thread and were planning to enter before the deadline, remember.

Just a suggestion, but maybe there should be a discussion forum openned for both the contest holders and designers. Some place where we would talk where it didn't feel like we were actually criticisizing the way the the forum is taking place. Someplace to discuss pros and cons and ethics. A place to give tips and applause without affecting the contests.

This guy posts his location as heaven and has a new product name that's big time here in the states. I think the location field should be mandatory, so at least we know where the folks we are dealing with are located. This one is really laughable. Maybe I just find it that way because I've spent more years than I want to admit to pushing one of their mowers.