(16-07-2017 09:00 AM)scientious Wrote: Consciousness cannot yet be defined but it is not the same as awareness.

I like to think of consciousness as awareness filtered through a self-concept -- or perhaps awareness of our own subjective experiences, which define us as discrete.

If we simply compare the two definitions, awareness is a pre-condition to consciousness. You must be aware to be conscious. Awareness is the state of mind you have when you can perceive or know stuff. Consciousness imply that you can reflect, feel, think and act on or about the stuff you are aware of.

(16-07-2017 05:16 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote: I like to think of consciousness as awareness filtered through a self-concept -- or perhaps awareness of our own subjective experiences, which define us as discrete.

If we simply compare the two definitions, awareness is a pre-condition to consciousness. You must be aware to be conscious. Awareness is the state of mind you have when you can perceive or know stuff. Consciousness imply that you can reflect, feel, think and act on or about the stuff you are aware of.

So babies are not conscious ?

Insufferable know-it-all. It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.

(16-07-2017 08:11 PM)epronovost Wrote: If we simply compare the two definitions, awareness is a pre-condition to consciousness. You must be aware to be conscious. Awareness is the state of mind you have when you can perceive or know stuff. Consciousness imply that you can reflect, feel, think and act on or about the stuff you are aware of.

So babies are not conscious ?

Nor are sleeping people...

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man

(16-07-2017 05:16 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote: I like to think of consciousness as awareness filtered through a self-concept -- or perhaps awareness of our own subjective experiences, which define us as discrete.

Awareness is pretty well understood. Your notions about consciousness seem somewhat off though. For example, most mammals are conscious without having any self conception. Humans are unusual in that we have a very flexible modeling ability including areas that normally make organisms less fit rather than more fit. Why this works in humans but not, say, chimpanzees is one of the questions that is being worked on.

(16-07-2017 09:22 PM)epronovost Wrote: As for babies, its a bit more complecated, but very young babies might indeed not be fully conscious.

Okay, if you want to phrase it that way. Newborn babies devote 2/3rds of their respiration to brain function. That's pushing brain development in utero about as far as possible. However, birth allows independent breathing and new sources of food. Respiration increases and allows not only body growth but increased activity in the brain. It takes a few days before newborns begin making eye contact. This is where consciousness begins. It continues to develop. An example I can think of is that babies have demonstrated an ability to distinguish one spoken word from another before they begin trying to speak. This is very early on.

(16-07-2017 09:53 PM)scientious Wrote: Awareness is pretty well understood. Your notions about consciousness seem somewhat off though. For example, most mammals are conscious without having any self conception.

Animals and humans have experiences which are subjective and discrete, meaning only they have them -- bodily sensations, instincts, emotions, and thoughts in some cases. Those are what create the self-concept as I was defining it, not self-consciousness per se, which is something else again. We filter the world through that more elementary self-concept, or discrete experience of the self, which is what I think defines consciousness as compared to awareness.

In that elementary sense, fetuses are likely conscious at a certain point of development, since their REM sleep most likely exercises that elementary sense of self. Of course it also follows that dreaming is conscious in an attenutated sense, typically without self-reflective awareness. It is most certainly not unconscious. In any case, consciousness is not all or nothing, but is a composite of various forms of awareness, not all of which may be active at any given time. As you say, consciousness is more complex than awareness.

(16-07-2017 09:22 PM)epronovost Wrote: As for babies, its a bit more complecated, but very young babies might indeed not be fully conscious.

Okay, if you want to phrase it that way. Newborn babies devote 2/3rds of their respiration to brain function. That's pushing brain development in utero about as far as possible. However, birth allows independent breathing and new sources of food. Respiration increases and allows not only body growth but increased activity in the brain. It takes a few days before newborns begin making eye contact. This is where consciousness begins. It continues to develop. An example I can think of is that babies have demonstrated an ability to distinguish one spoken word from another before they begin trying to speak. This is very early on.

I would say it begins when baby recognizes him/herself as well as mom as human beings. It's a crucial moment (the root of empathy) and babies who miss it have permanent personality disorders (see narcissism and socio-psychopaths).

I don't think one is fully conscious before the boundaries between "I" and "you" are recognized. Unless being conscious only of oneself counts.

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man