I'm a little confused about the incarnations of Patrul Rinpoche. Since Patrul Orgyen Jigme Chökyi Wangpo was recognized as the reincarnation of Palge Samten Phuntsok, I always thought that he is considered as the 1st Patrul Rinpoche, followed by Tsö Patrul Rinpoche Kunzang Shenpen Özer (who was a student of Adzom Drukpa). But this website mentions the following lineage:

So, this website lists 5 Patrul Rinpoches, with Orgyen Jigme Chokyi Wangpo being #3, but doesn't mention Tsö Patrul Rinpoche at all, and it also says that the 5th Patrul Rinpoche, Jigme Rikpey Dorje Palzangpo, was born in 1963 and died in 2008.

I think you have to differentiate between the Palge line of incarnations and those recognized as tulkus of Jigme Chokyi Wangpo specifically. It sounds strange, but this happened quite often when a tulku gained a greater status for their individual achievements than they did from their tulku line. Both Kongtrul and Khyentse are examples of this, as well. The line of incarnation that these individuals were recognized as continues after their death, but other incarnations are recognized sporadically that don't necessarily assume the seat or property of the main incarnation line, but are given the title nonetheless.

I hope that helps a little. As for the specifics of the Paltrul line or Paltrul-truls, I really don't know much.

Clarence wrote:There is also a Patrul Rinpoche incarnation living in Tso Pema. BTW, I remember Heart once saying that the Belgian Patrul incarnation is not completely without controversy.

Sometimes I wonder if there is even a single tulku that is completely without any kind controversy. But as I sometimes say to my friend that is a disciple of the Belgian Patrul, "the point isn't what tulku a teacher is, it is that they teach so that they get through to your heart and have a genuine lineage".

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

heart wrote:Sometimes I wonder if there is even a single tulku that is completely without any kind controversy.

hmm... yes, I have similar feelings in this regard. Sometimes I wonder if they didn't thought it through very well when they invented this whole tulku system...

Anyway, I was never particularly interested in this tulku-business -- I just was curious because I know that Ranyak Patrul Rinpoche has been around for a while now here in Europe, and I never heard about other living Patruls before Khempo Chomchok Patrul Rinpoche visited Switzerland last winter.

Yeti wrote:I seem to remember that Patrul Rinpoche said somewhere that he wouldn't reincarnate or manifest a tulku

if that's true it's rather funny that there are (at least) four of them now...

Well it seems very complicated, more then ever before...Moreover Chinese are now very good in spreading their own tulkus around the world... they have clear agenda doing so. And Westerners are pretty naive to follow easily anyone who claims whatever claims.

Sorry, in Taiwan it happens as well, not only there, but generally were the bigger community of Chinese believers appears in Asia.

Chinese gov's have long long history using people for their own purpose, so it happenes now with Tibetan Buddhism, and it has weak, very weak point, namely tulku system...

Yeti wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that Patrul Rinpoche said somewhere that he wouldn't reincarnate or manifest a tulku.

I think a few lamas have made such proclamations, but it hasn't stopped a line a tulkus springing up.

It gives rise to a namtok song in my mind "You can't stop the tulku, nobody can stop the tulku" to the tune of the Village People's "You Can't Stop the Music".

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

I was fortunate to go on a pilgrimage to Central Tibet in 2007. I planned it so that I would be at Chimphu on the 10th lunar day of that month (June). When I arrived at Chimphu Utse Nunnery at the foot of Chimphu that morning, a huge practice session was in progress. There were two lamas on thrones. Both of them affected me strongly, I sensed a powerful samadhi that drew me in. I was captivated by these two lamas, so I asked my guide to find out who they were. He told me that the main one was Dza Patrul Rinpoche. Here is a humble video of some of that session; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1oyGQ6vw-Q

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

Yeti wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that Patrul Rinpoche said somewhere that he wouldn't reincarnate or manifest a tulku.

I think a few lamas have made such proclamations, but it hasn't stopped a line a tulkus springing up.

I'm not sure if you're actually wrong about this, but I've never heard this about Paltrul. Mipham is famous for saying he wouldn't be born in impure realms ever again, which matches up with your second point nicely. On the other hand, what really made Paltrul stand out is the fact that he abandoned the residence and wealth of the prevous Palge and became a wandering yogi. It seems the only thing he never really shook was the name, though he refered to himself as Abu Hralpo, which isn't exactly a compliment. So whether or not he intended to manifest again or not, he certainly didn't make much of his tulku entitlement during his lifetime and it's certainly not because of that title that he remains such a revered and beloved lama. Then again, I'm not one to bash the tulku system, so if somebody is recognized and then properly trained to uphold the lineage I think that's wonderful and of extremely great benefit of all those that wish to connect with those teachings.

Bhusuku wrote:So it seems there are currently three different incarnations, and only a couple of years ago there have been even four of them....

If Paltrul Chokyi Wangpo indeed said he wouldn't have any tulkus, this would be strange. Although, I'm sure he made compassionate aspirations concerning this realm, so I wouldn't be surprised if his main aim was to keep people from searching for and entangling his emanations in worldly politics. Aside from that, for a realized being, having multiple incarnations in general isn't strange at all. That's one of the powers of an arya bodhisattva or a buddha, after all. Take Dudjom Rinpoche for example: there were emanations of body, speech, mind, and either activities or qualities or both. For instance, one of my lamas, Gyatrul Rinpoche, had Dudjom Jigdral Yeshe Dorje and Natsog Rangdrol (one of the Dudjom emanations) for root gurus... And Natsog Rangdrol took Rinpoche to meet a nother Dudjom emanation, Kunzang Nyima, to receive empowerments and teachings, and he told of the Dudjom emanations really chatting it up together.

I think there are many who emanate in different forms other than a line of a tulku. But it makes sense to emanate as a lineage tulku if there is the tendrel to continue the body, speech, mind, qualities and activity of that lineage. Maybe do both

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

I know another contemporary Rinpoche who is considered an emanation of Patrul, although I'm not sure in which aspect.

There is a famous Mani wall in Tibet which was built by Patrul Rinpoche, when he finished it he declared that in the future a Tulku of him would return to finish and maintain it, and that people could have confidence that Patrul had returned.

Anyway, this Rinpoche never talk about it, he just gets on with looking after it as one of his projects in Tibet. But years ago Mindrolling Rinpoche mentioned this prophecy by Patrul when he heard Rinpoche had taken over the care of this huge Mani wall.

Stewart wrote:I know another contemporary Rinpoche who is considered an emanation of Patrul, although I'm not sure in which aspect.

There is a famous Mani wall in Tibet which was built by Patrul Rinpoche, when he finished it he declared that in the future a Tulku of him would return to finish and maintain it, and that people could have confidence that Patrul had returned.

Anyway, this Rinpoche never talk about it, he just gets on with looking after it as one of his projects in Tibet. But years ago Mindrolling Rinpoche mentioned this prophecy by Patrul when he heard Rinpoche had taken over the care of this huge Mani wall.

Good to hear that

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

Stewart wrote:I know another contemporary Rinpoche who is considered an emanation of Patrul, although I'm not sure in which aspect.

There is a famous Mani wall in Tibet which was built by Patrul Rinpoche, when he finished it he declared that in the future a Tulku of him would return to finish and maintain it, and that people could have confidence that Patrul had returned.

Anyway, this Rinpoche never talk about it, he just gets on with looking after it as one of his projects in Tibet. But years ago Mindrolling Rinpoche mentioned this prophecy by Patrul when he heard Rinpoche had taken over the care of this huge Mani wall.

I vaguely recall, though I'm not sure where from, that either Jigme Gyalwai Nyugu or Patrul Rinpoche said they would always be reborn as Khenpo or abbot of Dzagyal gompa in Dzachuka. I think Khenpo Choechok Rinpoche may have been Dzagyal Khenpo when he was recognized. I knew him from when I was in Tso Pema. He might still live there. I haven't been back for quite a while.

Yeti wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that Patrul Rinpoche said somewhere that he wouldn't reincarnate or manifest a tulku.I think a few lamas have made such proclamations, but it hasn't stopped a line a tulkus springing up.

I've heard from different sources that Patrul Rinpoche said he wouldn't take another rebirth and not to look for his tulku. I've also heard (from a student of Khenpo Chomchok Patrul Rinpoche) that Patrul Rinpoche wouldn't return as a tulku but would be whoever is khenpo at Dzagyal gompa. (I remembered, it was definitely Patrul.)I've looked for references to Patrul Rinpoche's reluctance to return as a tulku but couldn't find anything other than the quote below. But I have heard it from a number of people so it must have a basis in something.

"It seems that when Dza Patrul was about to die, Khenpo Kunpel requested him to come back soon. He asked Patrul how he would be able to find his reincarnation, but Patrul replied that he would not take rebirth, and that Khenpo Kunpel should not look for his reincarnation. Nevertheless, he said, “It is certain that a monk carrying a sack will arrive whom you will think is me -- claim him.” Thus, when Botrul arrived carrying a sack, Khenpo Kunpel identified him as a reincarnation of Dza Patrul." http://www.treasuryoflives.org/biographies/view/Botrul-Dongak-Tenpai-Nyima/10093

Milarepa famously said that he wouldn't return as a tulku, but these are probably words put into his mouth from Tsangnyon Heruka, who had a bit of a thing against the tulku system. Of course, Milarepa lived before Karma Pakshi, the first tulku of that 'system.'

michaelb wrote:I've heard from different sources that Patrul Rinpoche said he wouldn't take another rebirth and not to look for his tulku. I've also heard (from a student of Khenpo Chomchok Patrul Rinpoche) that Patrul Rinpoche wouldn't return as a tulku but would be whoever is khenpo at Dzagyal gompa. (I remembered, it was definitely Patrul.)I've looked for references to Patrul Rinpoche's reluctance to return as a tulku but couldn't find anything other than the quote below. But I have heard it from a number of people so it must have a basis in something.

"It seems that when Dza Patrul was about to die, Khenpo Kunpel requested him to come back soon. He asked Patrul how he would be able to find his reincarnation, but Patrul replied that he would not take rebirth, and that Khenpo Kunpel should not look for his reincarnation. Nevertheless, he said, “It is certain that a monk carrying a sack will arrive whom you will think is me -- claim him.” Thus, when Botrul arrived carrying a sack, Khenpo Kunpel identified him as a reincarnation of Dza Patrul." http://www.treasuryoflives.org/biographies/view/Botrul-Dongak-Tenpai-Nyima/10093

Milarepa famously said that he wouldn't return as a tulku, but these are probably words put into his mouth from Tsangnyon Heruka, who had a bit of a thing against the tulku system. Of course, Milarepa lived before Karma Pakshi, the first tulku of that 'system.'

Thanks for that. This is what I recollect I heard a long time ago, but the old grey matter is not what it used to be.

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche