It seems like both left and right are for more clean renewable energy, so I thought it would be nice to have a thread to share some of the progress.

Here's right of centre Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany. She saw the devastation in Japan, and thought "Not on my watch, not to my people" These are the kinds of leaders America needs.

"Not since the allies leveled Germany in World War II has Europe’s biggest economy undertaken a reconstruction of its energy market on this scale.

Chancellor Angela Merkel is planning to build offshore wind farms that will cover an area six times the size of New York City and erect power lines that could stretch from London to Baghdad. The program will cost 200 billion euros ($263 billion), about 8 percent of the country’s gross domestic product in 2011, according to the DIW economic institute in Berlin.

Germany aims to replace 17 nuclear reactors supplying a fifth of its electricity with renewables such as solar and wind. Merkel to succeed must experiment with untested systems and policies and overcome technical hurdles threatening the project, said Stephan Reimelt, chief executive officer of General Electric Co. (GE)’s energy unit in the country."
~ http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/0...-world-war-ii/

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

I wish I lived in a time when the US pushed the frontiers of science and technology and prided itself for doing so. Too many of us have lost our imagination and drive toward a better future. Now too many of us laugh and scoff at the idea of pushing those boundaries. It's a very "we can't" attitude and I'm sick of it.

Chancellor Angela Merkel is planning to build offshore wind farms that will cover an area six times the size of New York City...

That's going to kill an absolutely incredible number of birds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

I wish I lived in a time when the US pushed the frontiers of science and technology and prided itself for doing so. Too many of us have lost our imagination and drive toward a better future. Now too many of us laugh and scoff at the idea of pushing those boundaries. It's a very "we can't" attitude and I'm sick of it.

I know this is going to come of as an ultra-conservative talking point, but I genuinely believe that progress is being hindered by government regulations. The Wright Brothers would never have bothered if they had the FAA, EPA and Department of Transportation to contend with.

We all want safe and clean air and drinking water, and I'm not opposed to strict government regulation (especially on Nukes). But something has turned in our society.

Just today, Toronto City Council stopped building our subway system to instead build rails-on-the-street lines. Despite the fact that the substantial increase in spending was okay by the conservative Mayor, the left-leaning council decided that subways were too ambitious to be built anymore. This is an incredibly short-sighted decision that will end up stunting the growth of the city and choking an already bad traffic system.

Something has to be done. We're spending more than ever to teach math and science to kids and engineering at universities, and all the cool, truly forward looking stuff is being built elsewhere.

Who knew the Germans were so stupid when it came to energy engineering.

Maybe they're not, maybe they're forward looking-

"The 186-page report, 2010 Comparative Costs of California Central Station Electricity Generation, found that a 1,000 MW Pressurized Water Reactor would generate electricity in 2018 from as little as $0.17/kWh to as much as $0.34/kWh.

The results of the CEC study are startling. Most renewable technologies today, even solar photovoltaics (solar PV), generate electricity for less than nuclear power in 2018. Only a municipal utility could generate nuclear electricity for less cost than than that of solar PV."
~ http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/0...34kwh-in-2018/

I know this is going to come of as an ultra-conservative talking point, but I genuinely believe that progress is being hindered by government regulations. The Wright Brothers would never have bothered if they had the FAA, EPA and Department of Transportation to contend with.

We all want safe and clean air and drinking water, and I'm not opposed to strict government regulation (especially on Nukes). But something has turned in our society.

Just today, Toronto City Council stopped building our subway system to instead build rails-on-the-street lines. Despite the fact that the substantial increase in spending was okay by the conservative Mayor, the left-leaning council decided that subways were too ambitious to be built anymore. This is an incredibly short-sighted decision that will end up stunting the growth of the city and choking an already bad traffic system.

Something has to be done. We're spending more than ever to teach math and science to kids and engineering at universities, and all the cool, truly forward looking stuff is being built elsewhere.

I wish I lived in a time when the US pushed the frontiers of science and technology and prided itself for doing so. Too many of us have lost our imagination and drive toward a better future. Now too many of us laugh and scoff at the idea of pushing those boundaries. It's a very "we can't" attitude and I'm sick of it.

If you have to turn off a windmill every time a bird needs to pass through, does it make economic sense to build it in the first place?

The vast number of migrating birds fly over the top of even the tallest turbines. When the weathers bad though, they fly lower. Depending on the weather and where the flock is the turbine can turn off just temporarily, thereby hardly loosing any power production. Cats, as of 2007, kill an estimated 500 million birds annually. By 2030 the estimates from wind turbines are 1 million, and that doesn't even take into account radars and whatever else they can come up with to lower the death rates.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

Even if you don't have to do that I'm sure it doesn't make economic sense. That's why it's being done by government rather than the private sector.

Yeah, it's all being done by the government rather than the private sector

"New renewable energy generation is now cheaper than new coal generation in Michigan, and could be a $5-billion annual industry for the economically hard-hit state. So say two recent reports analyzing the state’s progress toward renewable energy goals.

While both findings are impressive, new renewables falling below the cost of new coal is a more important long-term trend. The analysis comes from a Michigan Public Service Commission (PSC) report detailing implementation costs of meeting the state’s 10 percent renewable energy standard.

Renewables 10% Cheaper Than Coal

New wind, biomass, landfill gas, and hydroelectric generation all cost less than new advanced-supercritical pulverized coal plants with a 40-year life cycle, according to the report. PSC staff estimated in 2009 that electricity generated from new coal plants would cost $133 per megawatt-hour (MWh), and reiterated that estimate, saying “new coal capacity would likely require significant capital costs (and potentially increase rates for customers).”

By comparison, the report finds “the cost of all renewable energy technologies is less than the coal guidepost rate” of $133/MWh, especially in the service territories of the state’s two largest utilities. The combined average levelized renewable energy contract prices for Consumers Energy and Detroit Edison from 2009-2011 are at least $12 cheaper per MWh compared to coal, and “the actual cost of renewable energy contracts submitted to the Commission to date shows a downward pricing trend.”
~ http://cleantechnica.com/2012/02/28/...lion-industry/

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

It seems like both left and right are for more clean renewable energy, so I thought it would be nice to have a thread to share some of the progress.

Here's right of centre Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany. She saw the devastation in Japan, and thought "Not on my watch, not to my people" These are the kinds of leaders America needs.

"Not since the allies leveled Germany in World War II has Europes biggest economy undertaken a reconstruction of its energy market on this scale.

Chancellor Angela Merkel is planning to build offshore wind farms that will cover an area six times the size of New York City and erect power lines that could stretch from London to Baghdad. The program will cost 200 billion euros ($263 billion), about 8 percent of the countrys gross domestic product in 2011, according to the DIW economic institute in Berlin.

Germany aims to replace 17 nuclear reactors supplying a fifth of its electricity with renewables such as solar and wind. Merkel to succeed must experiment with untested systems and policies and overcome technical hurdles threatening the project, said Stephan Reimelt, chief executive officer of General Electric Co. (GE)s energy unit in the country."
~ http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/0...-world-war-ii/

That is good progression on Germany's part to employ green energy and make the country more suitable to live in.I hope General Electric will not dodge out of paying no taxes this time.

That is good progression on Germany's part to employ green energy and make the country more suitable to live in.

Nuclear power is one of the safest and most efficient ways to produce electricity. Wind Power has major disadvantages, from noise and visual pollution, to unreliability, to high cost. Did you read that part...8% of GDP! That's like the U.S. spending over $1 Trillion on the same program.

Quote:

I hope General Electric will not dodge out of paying no taxes this time.

Let me first say that I agree GE and every other large corporation should be paying taxes. However, they did not "dodge" taxes. They used existing tax law to not pay. This is not illegal, and it's what everyone does...minimize their burden. However, this is why we need to have a vastly different tax code...where everyone who makes X amount over the poverty line pays at least something.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Yes. That's all they have. The results of liberal and quasi-socialist polices are on display for all to see. The results this President has gotten are undeniable, from trillion dollar deficits, to high unemployment, to skyrocketing energy prices, to an assault on the Constitution itself.

Given such plainly visible failure, all they have left is to tell us the GOP has started a "war on women." All they have left is to claim that had a Republican been elected in 2008, it would have been much worse. All they have left is to straight-up, no-holds-barred LIE to the American public about what they're doing and what they've done.

This administration has broken nearly every promise it made. Remember how the world would respect us if we apologized and stopped trying to lead? Remember how unemployment would "peak" at 8% with the stimulus? Remember how green energy was going to create millions of new jobs and get us off oil? Remember how we were just going to talk to Iran and everything would be solved? Remember how we were going to have a roundtable debate about healthcare? Remember how we were going to have the most transparent administration in history? Remember how we were going to get to view bills online for 72 hours before they were voted upon? Remember how this President was a post-racial, post-partisan Nobel Peace Prize winner? Remember how he promised to cut the deficit by the end of his first term? Remember how no one's taxes would go up? Remember how Obamacare would cost $800 billion over ten years and would let you keep your private insurance?

I can honestly say that I have never seen such unmitigated failure in my lifetime. And I've never seen such a large number of people that look at the the color white and accept it is actually black because their leaders told them so.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

That said, the statement should have been better phrased that it is stupid to support wind energy over nuclear.

I absolutely believe we should embrace both over coal and oil. Large projects like this are an absolutely perfect way to make the technology better. It won't bankrupt Germany (despite the proclamations I expect from you saying it will) and it will advance the science considerably.

Are you saying we should abandon wind as a source of energy? Why? Birds?

Large projects like this are an absolutely perfect way to make the technology better. It won't bankrupt Germany (despite the proclamations I expect from you saying it will) and it will advance the science considerably.

Expect whatever you want. I haven't claimed it would bankrupt Germany.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton

Are you saying we should abandon wind as a source of energy?

Nope. Not at all. I think anyone who wants to voluntarily invest in that technology (solar too) absolutely should. I wish them the best of luck and hope it bears fruit.

New well paying jobs or drought, heart disease and mercury poisoning? Your choice.

"Green Jobs Out-Number Fossil Fuel Jobs 4 to 1: CAP analysis of 2010 BLS figures found 575,000 jobs in the oil and gas sector, including extraction, refining, and other support activities even with oil and gas production reaching an 8-year high under the Obama Administration. Adding mining and related activities to the mix brings 2010 fossil fuel jobs to 783,000, nearly 4 times smaller than the total Green Goods and Services category. According analysis by the Brookings Institution, green jobs outpaced the job growth in the greater economy by a factor of 2 to 1 during the peak of the recession (2008-2010), and pay an average of $7,000 more than other jobs across the greater economy."
~ http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/0...p-5-takeaways/

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

Large projects like this are an absolutely perfect way to make the technology better. It won't bankrupt Germany (despite the proclamations I expect from you saying it will) and it will advance the science considerably.

It's going to cost 8% of their entire GDP! That's like the U.S. spending over a trillion dollars. I'd say it has a good chance of bankrupting them, actually.

Quote:

Are you saying we should abandon wind as a source of energy? Why? Birds?

I'm not at all. Both are good supplements to other means of production. But neither will become the dominant source of energy anytime in the foreseeable future. We've had solar tech for 40 years, and it's still not close to good enough to replace fossil fuels. Wind power has numerous drawbacks of which I'm sure you're aware.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

I'm not at all. Both are good supplements to other means of production. But neither will become the dominant source of energy anytime in the foreseeable future.

Self-fulfilling prophecy. It's because people like you refuse to invest in the future and are all too happy to sit on your thumbs, living in the past. America has lost its imagination. We need a new Kennedy moment to spur us on.

Self-fulfilling prophecy. It's because people like you refuse to invest in the future and are all too happy to sit on your thumbs, living in the past. America has lost its imagination. We need a new Kennedy moment to spur us on.

Self-fulfilling prophecy. It's because people like you refuse to invest in the future and are all too happy to sit on your thumbs, living in the past. America has lost its imagination. We need a new Kennedy moment to spur us on.

What you call realism I call a combination of science denial, pessimism, and no imagination. Hell, looks to me like you are saying AMERICA CAN'T DO IT. I didn't realize that you thought so little of your country.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

What you call realism I call a combination of science denial, pessimism, and no imagination. Hell, looks to me like you are saying AMERICA CAN'T DO IT. I didn't realize that you thought so little of your country.

You really are incapable of debate and discussion without being an asshole, aren't you?

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Are you incapable of thinking our country can lead the world in new technologies? Are you incapable of thinking that our country can do great things--not because it is easy, but because it is hard?

This new technology isn't new. It has existed for a while and the yields have never approached a level that makes it beat oil. The only way the costs even become close is levying massive carbon taxes so as to artificially alter the equation.

Uh huh. If you had this scientific literacy you claim to have you'd realize the Utopian nature of such dreams of no scarcity. The resources of the world are finite. Period. This is actually one of the foundational misunderstandings of modern liberals. You all think we can just fabricate wealth and prosperity out of thin air by sheer force of will (or government fiat.) This is profoundly Utopian.

Exactly. But you seem to think scarcity doesn't affect oil prices and never will.

I have no idea how you got that idea! I'm absolutely aware that scarcity affects oil prices (among other things!) That you think that from what I've said shows remarkably poor comprehension of what I've said.

I have no idea how you got that idea! I'm absolutely aware that scarcity affects oil prices (among other things!) That you think that from what I've said shows remarkably poor comprehension of what I've said.

Well I can't comment on geothermal but the others should be quite obvious.

P.S. The scarcity isn't just in the resource itself but in the resources required to harness it.

Let's take solar, for instance. The main resource required to tap the solar energy source using current technology is silicon.

While silicon is relatively scarce indeed, once you gather the required resource, you can use it forever to harvest the energy. Silicon is a non-consumable. Therefore, it is far less of a problem when we have to find new sources of silicon than when we have to find new sources of oil, because we can continue to use the silicon we've already harvested... INDEFINITELY. With oil... notsomuch.

So tell me again. Take scarcity to the extreme. What form of energy should we be relying on when the resources run out?