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Re: morality

Originally Posted by katiegrrl0

I believe morals are based on individual thought and learning.

Most people simply lack an understanding from what I have seen outside of some set understanding of code of conduct. They have little understanding of how to expand beyond it, so they stay to the same conduct rules they were taught all those years ago and do nothing but work of the base and turn around and call it their morality. That appears to be the extent of it from my experience of this learning exercise. What is your experience with it?

Since we are calling these morals we find them different per individual. Morals lead us as the person but do not guide the nation or society. The nation and society overrides personal moral by creation of law. What I am discussing is not selfish at all.

To the most part it is. From my experience people confuse personal desire or need with a sense of morality. Almost all law is based on this rather confused ideal be it taxes or welfare.

Re: morality

Originally Posted by Bonzai

The problem with morality in monotheistic societies is that any kind of imagined "natural" morality long ago became extinct and was replaced by a religious morality taken verbatim from an old book. If and how any society/culture can dig itself out of the abyss that is monotheistic religious based morality remains to be seen......................

This is true and even this basis for morality is inconsistent from one book to another. It makes it difficult to see if there ever has been a built in moral compass or one which had evolved. One the natural was perverted by teaching we lost any sense of the natural. It will never be sorted out until we all stop trying to lay our ideals on others as the only answer or way out.

The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.Sophie B. Hawkins

Re: morality

Originally Posted by katiegrrl0

Your premiss for morals would require everyone to be live as you do.

That's absurd; I'm not a moron. I expect certain standards. For examples: no rape or murder. I don't expect everyone to serve as a paratrooper, acquire their masters in Europe, spend years in Africa and plan to settle there, be vegan, etc etc etc

Don't put BS in my mouth. 99% of people CAN'T live as I do, they simply haven't the intellectual capacity and other blessings.

Re: morality

Originally Posted by mpg

What if a couple has a terrible marriage and they're both very unhappy, but they stay together purely because they both believe divorce is immoral? In that case, the law doesn't win. There are infinite other examples.

Yes a different law wins and that is the law of a faith which would force them to live in misery rather than be free to love again and maybe find joy. They have chosen a different law. The basis you go on is that both are guided by this faith. The only losers in your scenario are the man and woman who would rather live a life tied to someone they do not love rather than break so arbitrary religious rule.

The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.Sophie B. Hawkins

Re: morality

Originally Posted by katiegrrl0

This is true and even this basis for morality is inconsistent from one book to another. It makes it difficult to see if there ever has been a built in moral compass or one which had evolved. One the natural was perverted by teaching we lost any sense of the natural. It will never be sorted out until we all stop trying to lay our ideals on others as the only answer or way out.

I don't believe you can use those sources interchangeably. The bible is merely a work of fiction while the other describes the world around you.

Re: morality

Some morality may match with law. This is true but morality does not make the laws. The reason is moral is changeable and subject to a persons own learned belief system.

All I said was that some morality was embodied in law and others aren't. That was a response to the OP. However, I should note that most laws are not immoral but there are exceptions.

I've now read through this thread - to this point, at least - and I've always agreed that morality is determined by society and that individuals have their own morals on top of that, some of which conflict with societal mores. For example, stealing is generally immoral to society (and almost always illegal) but many people don't see a poor, starving person stealing food or a homeless person squatting in an empty building to get out of the cold as immoral.

Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-05-13 at 01:09 AM.

Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

Re: morality

Originally Posted by MoSurveyor

All I said was that some morality was embodied in law and others aren't. That was a response to the OP.

I've now read through this thread - to this point, at least - and I've always agreed that morality is determined by society and that individuals have their own morals on top of that, some of which conflict with societal mores. For example, stealing is generally immoral to society (and almost always illegal) but many people don't see a poor, starving person stealing food or a homeless person squatting in an empty building to get out of the cold as immoral.

They don't? Why?

You appear to be doing exactly what I described above. You're confusing need with morality.

The poor man is not excluded by morality simply because he is poor and in need. The moral thing to do is help the poor man, but in turn the moral thing for the poor man to do is not to steal from everyone else to get the help he needs. Why would someone think that something is different for him?

Re: morality

Originally Posted by katiegrrl0

Yes a different law wins and that is the law of a faith which would force them to live in misery rather than be free to love again and maybe find joy. They have chosen a different law. The basis you go on is that both are guided by this faith. The only losers in your scenario are the man and woman who would rather live a life tied to someone they do not love rather than break so arbitrary religious rule.

Who said anything about religious rules? They could both be atheists. The law loses.

Re: morality

Originally Posted by katiegrrl0

Morality is individual and nothing more. They are beliefs any person may have or not have depending on what they have learned or experienced. They in essence do not exist beyond an individuals thoughts. Laws are the governing factor in a society. These laws make individual morals obsolete. If society were based on morals it would be in chaos as we all believe differently. Even based on religion everyone does not follow every rule in their bible. Foe every religion there is a different god or goddess. We can't even say their is one. So the legal system steps in and determines what will function as law and this is the guide for the nation. Everyone must conform to this legal standard and not what they personally believe. There fore morality goes out the window and law takes its place.

I agree that morality goes out the window for the overall population but morality certainly is pertinent to your individual social group(s). Break the morals of the group and you may get shunned.

I agree with the rest of your post.

Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg