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Jan, I wrote a poem for one of your classes (sorry, I don't recall which one) called "Things Found Along the Road". You were teaching a certain type of poetry style that had a preset form of repeating lines. I wrote it in 10, 10, 10, 10 rhythm with alternating stress throughout. The poem has eight verses with identical rhythm and stressing. This is the first verse. Did I mark it correctly? If you want to see the entire poem it is at http://www.faithwriters.com/article-det ... p?id=91935

Had I but KNOWN what LURKED aLONG the ROAD, when FIRST my HEART comMITTed TO its GOALperHAPS I WOULD have SOUGHT to SHED my LOAD; aLAS, I ADDed DAIly TO its TOLL.

Gerald, this poem is GORGEOUS. You've marked the meter correctly--it's called iambic pentameter, by the way, and it's the meter that Shakespeare used in most of his sonnets (although with only 14 lines of it).

I'm not sure where you pronounce an 11th syllable in that last line, but it's certainly an Aussie thing, I'll bet.

Let me look at that line again:

Here they are nurtured, in this earthy home.

Isn't 'here' two syllables -- he re? Doesn't the rule of syllables being formed by vowels apply. I've checked it in three online syllable counters and it shows as two syllables in each. Please, I'm not trying to be smart here, just trying to learn.

So does the syllable count change with some pronunciations of the word?

An interesting thought comes to me in regard to accents and syllables/stresses. If accent changes syllable count and stress, then how can someone like me learn what is right and wrong where stress is concerned?

Blessings, Graham.

May we all get eyes to see and ears to hear,A Revelation of His Word, crystal clear.Admitting our need to be drawn in,Less of self, more of Him.

A syllable is a unit of a word that contains one vowel sound--that's not necessarily the same as being "formed by a vowel." For example, many words contain silent vowels that don't add to their syllable count.

"Here" is one of those words--the second "e" is silent, serving the purpose of giving the first "e" a long "e" sound, but not pronounced.

However--maybe Aussies do pronounce "here" in two syllables--I'm just not sure. But there are many, many words with unpronounced vowels. My granddaughter's name is Kate--two vowels, but only one syllable.

You've certainly brought up an interesting question. "Does the syllable count change with some pronunciations of a word?" The answer is "yes." The word "blessed" can have one syllable (sounding like "blest") or two syllables (sounding like "bless-ed"). The word "mole" can be pronounced "mo-lay" when it's a kind of sauce, or "mole" when it's a little animal. And of course, people may pronounce words differently because of their dialects or accents.

So your final question--how can you learn right and wrong when stresses are variable--is a good one. I can only say that you should work on making your meter work with the way YOU pronounce words, and not to worry about the way that they'd be pronounced by potential readers. You just can't make it work for every single reader, but it'll be close--and if it's good, any little blips in the meter as a result of accent won't matter in the least.

Wow so glad to stumble by this...I love writing poetry but always have so many questions because 30 yrs after my University writing days, i started writing again and my memory fails me on rules, etc I seem to have an ear for meter, if its off I switch it right away with another word and try to keep the syllable count but can never seem to "analyze" the stressed and unstressed... I just write and it seems to flow... I can tell when its "off"My big question has always been, if you are keeping to iambic pentameter and one line sounds so perfect but suddenly has 11 syllables... Is that ok? Should u keep it because it flows well, or should you search and re-write to make it read well sticking to 10? I have read if a poem ends in 9 or 11 syllables in iambic pentameter it is still fine? This question has always been my biggie bec i never know if in the "poetry world" it is really still considered acceptable, or a minor error, or a biggie, or it truly doesn't matter.Thanks any help to this question appreciated,Hope to be able to read all the threads hereMar

merrimj1122 wrote:My big question has always been, if you are keeping to iambic pentameter and one line sounds so perfect but suddenly has 11 syllables... Is that ok? Should u keep it because it flows well, or should you search and re-write to make it read well sticking to 10? I have read if a poem ends in 9 or 11 syllables in iambic pentameter it is still fine? This question has always been my biggie bec i never know if in the "poetry world" it is really still considered acceptable, or a minor error, or a biggie, or it truly doesn't matter.Thanks any help to this question appreciated,Hope to be able to read all the threads hereMar

Not being a member of the "poetry world," (not even close), I'll freely admit that I don't know the answer to your question. I know that if I were writing the poem, my own obsessiveness would make me re-work that line until it had 10 syllables.

On the other hand--9 or 11 syllables would probably be just fine. As I said in the lesson, meter isn't engraved in stone, and you'll find many poems by poetry masters that are loosy-goosy with their meter. I guess it depends on if you're looking to get it published, and how picky the publishers are about their poems. If you're writing for your own benefit, or self-publishing, and you love that line--let it be.

Welcome to the writing forum--hope to see a lot more of you here in the future!

First, in their posts here, some folks have indicated stressed and unstressed syllables differently than I would. Some of this may be that an established rhythm can almost “force” the reader to put stress where it would otherwise not lay, and this is subjective. Also, I’m not sure whether my “scanning” is right, other people’s is right, or some of each. And, in some cases a given line of poetry can legitimately be scanned in more than one way.

However, there are some pretty good rules of thumb, including these: http://prosody.lib.virginia.edu/ (It is well worth reading everything on this page, but you can just scroll down to the rules of thumb if you want.) Rules of thumb, 1-3 are pretty standard; rule 4 is more advanced. Also, many people suggest that demonstrative pronouns are usually stressed.

Also, I think the hardest thing for me to master is the idea of secondary stresses, as indicated by dictionaries, and when that impacts scanning a poem. Two easier ideas, but ones which I don’t always remember, are promotion and demotion (or diminution). Promotion occurs when 3 (ought to be) unstressed syllables appear in a row. The middle one becomes stressed. Similarly demotion/diminution occurs when 3 (ought to be) stressed syllables appear in a row. The middle one becomes unstressed. (But there are exceptions—oh joy!)

I linked to the above site several years ago, but primarily for a different reason: you can also practice scanning on this site. If you want to practice, the link above contains the directions. After reading them, you can click on different poems to practice your scanning.

Second thought: I’m glad terms like iambic pentameter have come up. I was afraid some confusion might have set in about the word “meter.” Jan, your use of songs was a great intro to meter, and when people started doing the homework, they were using “meter” in the song sense, as you asked them to. But later it seemed that people thought that they could just count syllables to give the meter in the poem sense. But that might have been my imagination. Anyway—as I said— I’m glad to see terms like iambic pentameter coming up.

By the way, IF you want to take the lesson in this direction, you could discussion the point raised on (or at least implicated by) the linked page in my last post: making substitutions to the regular “foot” of your meter can change the total syllables in a line. The syllable variation question has been raised once or twice by folks, but you might not want to go there.

Steve
nlf.net
________
"When the Round Table is broken every man must follow Galahad or Mordred; middle
things are gone." C.S. Lewis
“The chief purpose of life … is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all the means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks. To do as we say in the Gloria in Excelsis ... We praise you, we call you holy, we worship you, we proclaim your glory, we thank you for the greatness of your splendor.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Jan wrote:There are other very gifted poets on this site (I remember Henry Clemmons from a long time ago, but haven't heard from him in a long time), Linda Watson Owen, Leigh McKelvey, Beth LaBuff--but most of those people aren't writing here any more.

All are among my favorites. Speaking of Beth LaBuff and as if to confirm what you said, Jan, Beth demonstrated her talent by winning 2nd place EC for this week

But back to the topic:

Before I found Faithwriters, non-fiction was the only area of writing I attempted. I dabbled in poetry, with little knowledge of what I was doing or why. I'm learning so much from Jan and this thread. Proof positive that I need all the help I can get when it comes to meter and rhyming is the following poem that I submitted awhile back for one of the Challenge topics. It has little rhyme or a consistent meter (I see that now), but hopefully some "reason." I'm probably better suited for free verse.

I'll take a "D" for exhibit A on how not to write poetry.

Garden Warrior

Although I’m armed for conquest, no matter what I wield against its rays, the sun shoots through my shields, of hat for shade and lemonade7-6-6-4-4-4 (Did I calculate the meter correctly?)

(The meter for the rest of the stanzas is hopeless)

Caught in fierce combat with weapons of mass exhaustion and dehydration I attack before sunrise and return under cover of sundown.

Even so the battle rages with sticks and stones and rocks hewn in time nestled in hardened clay. I strike a blow and then retreat to fight another day

I give it all I’ve got of gut, and strength and sinew of sweat and tears and toil. I can’t believe the hole’s too small

Tomorrow is another day to battle sun and soil with manicured soldiers dressed in gloved fatigues struggling hard against the foe with rake and hoe

The battle cry goes forth dig, rake, and mulch water, seed, and sow my cause is just and conquer I must

With every infant sprout, the earth gives up the struggle. With every little flowering bud, the sun submits and snuggles. And I sit peacefully in the shade Sipping lemonade.

Lillian

Last edited by oursilverstrands on Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Although I’m armed for conquest, no matter what I wield against its rays, the sun shoots through my shields, of hat for shade and lemonade7-6-6-4-4-4 (Did I calculate the meter correctly?)

Lillian

Lillian, you counted the syllables correctly. The meter consists of both the syllable count and the pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables.

I admire you tremendously for stretching out of what you were used to writing, and dabbling in both fiction and poetry. Not everyone is so willing to attempt new things, and what you've done is commendable.

glorybee wrote:I'm slightly intimidated by it, but when (if!) I ever get some free time, I'll definitely work through some of the poems on that site.

I still freshen up with it sometimes and still make mistakes. One thing that is especially nice is that in some passages, it alerts you to more than one possible way to mark the stresses.

Steve
nlf.net
________
"When the Round Table is broken every man must follow Galahad or Mordred; middle
things are gone." C.S. Lewis
“The chief purpose of life … is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all the means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks. To do as we say in the Gloria in Excelsis ... We praise you, we call you holy, we worship you, we proclaim your glory, we thank you for the greatness of your splendor.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Jan wrote: But wait—we’re not done. Not only does there have to be a pattern of number of syllables, but there must also be a pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables.

I may have missed this in reading through the comments, but does that mean both "patterns" must match up as one in the same? I also tried to emphasize the stressed and unstressed syllables, but not sure I got it right. They are SO off key! How might I correct this, if at all?

Jan wrote:I may have missed this in reading through the comments, but does that mean both "patterns" must match up as one in the same?

I'm not sure that I understand that question.

Meter has two components: syllable count and the pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables.

1. The syllable count should have a consistent pattern. In the example you've provided, this stanza is (7, 6, 6, 4, 4, 4). This is an unusual syllable count, but you could maintain that consistently in every stanza, making this a quirky and unique poem. Most poems that are rhymed and metered have a more regular syllable count. If you go back to the original lesson and click the link for "Megan's Hands," you'll see a poem I wrote with an unusual meter: (8, 7, 10, 8, 7, 10). It's not a typical pattern--but it's the same in every stanza.

2. The stressed/unstressed bit is what seems to be giving the most trouble. I really don't want to go into the names for the different patterns of stressed/unstressed, but I'll give you some examples:

unstressed - stressed: like the name Annette, pronounced a--NETstressed - unstressed: like the name Robert, pronounced ROB--ertunstressed - unstressed - stressed: like the name Marianne, pronounced mar-i-ANNstressed - unstressed - unstressed: like the name Jericho, pronounced JER--i--ko

There are many other patterns, but these are the most common.

Here's your stanza, with the stressed syllables as I hear them:

al THOUGH i'm ARMED for CON questno MAT ter WHAT i WIELDa GAINST its RAYS the SUNshoots THROUGH my SHIELDSof HAT for SHADEand LEM on ADE

It seems to me that this stanza is very close to having a meter that works. It's very consistently made up of sets of unstressed/stressed syllables. A few tweaks of the 3rd and 4th line might give you something like this:

It's been almost seven years since I've written poetry on a regular basis. I think I've written a total of three since 2007. Anyway, I used to enjoy experimenting with different patterns. I didn't look them up, so I don't know if there were even names for them, but I just made them up as I went. Generally speaking, I could hear the meter okay, but sometimes I was so caught up in the rhythm, I would hear some words wrong.

I don't have anything to add, but just wanted to say it's nice to see everyone chiming in on this topic. I learned a lot here at FW back in the day. Lessons like this are so valuable.