Well, if the author or authors are unknown, the claim of the Gospels being eye-witness accounts becomes even more dubious.

Why do they have to be eye witness accounts? Historians and news reporters almost never actually witness what went on. Investigators write official reports all the time, having only done an investigation after the fact. If we assume that Luke wrote the book that bears his name, there is very little claim that he was an eyewitness to any of it. What was important was that he was surrounded by people that claimed they knew Jesus, and were convinced that Jesus was the Messiah, and Son of God.

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This is presented as a "prophesy" but it strongly suggests that Mark (or at least that section of Mark) was written after the Temple had already been destroyed. A similar controversy exists regarding the dating of the book of Daniel, with some scholars claiming that the prophesies therein were composed after the events they supposedly predict.

It's not possible to prove God outside the bible since Jesus as the name of God is also from the bible.If someone proves God outside the bible where will be the link? How will one tell whether it's Jesus or another?By refuting the scriptures, the Atheists have ligatured their faculty of ever knowing God. No wonder they are atheists.

Well, we should probably stick to one train of thought. Trains are big and I can't mentally conceive of very many of them.

First, you assume that the atheists have [meaningfully] refuted Scriptures. But that's not true. So your argument is a bare assertion?

How can you love something you have never seen? What sort of love is this? Aren't you just enamoured by pictures and words? You cannot love someone you have not had any contact with. Name me one person in this world you have never seen or heard from that you "love"? If you can't do this then why do you claim to "love" your Jesus? Why should anyone not believe you are delusional?

Good question. In the Bible, the prophets constantly talk about the consolation and comfort of the Holy Spirit, and about a life which begins when God seals the elect believer with the Holy Spirit. Essentially God promises to always be with the Christian. God has means of grace, such as a body of believers, and meditating on Scripture, and the living practice of all the Christians who have gone before. So in the only way that matters for this life, I have God with me. Before I had God with me, He had written me letters, detailed notes about His feelings and intentions concerning me and the rest of the world. You are, when you ask about seeing God, essentially telling me that all relationships are skin deep.

Matthew 2:11, The Magi worship Jesus.Matthew 14:33, Disciples worship him saying "Truly you are the Son of God"Matthew 28:9, Disciples worship him again, after the resurrection, falling at his feet and clasping him.

John 9:38, A man born blind is healed, and this man worships Jesus.

The coup de grace:

Mt 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. Mt 4:2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. Mt 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Mt 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ 14 ’” Mt 4:5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. Mt 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “ ‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ 15 ’” Mt 4:7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ 16 ’” Mt 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. Mt 4:9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ 17 ’” Mt 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

jetson's question was: Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

None of the scripture you supplied answered his question. If you can't find a passage that suggests Jesus himself made a claim of divinity, then simply and honestly concede the point. Hell, even an "I don't know" would be an acceptable answer.

Jesus says to Satan that only the LORD is appropriate to worship.Baal was worshipped in the Bible.-----------------------------------------------Therefore, Baal is LORD.

See how that reasoning doesn't work?

Fool, I believe jetson wants it straight from the horses' mouth, so to speak. So have you come across any scripture that directly shows Jesus making a claim of divinity? It's a simple yes or no question. If yes, then please cite the verse.

jetson's question was: Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

None of the scripture you supplied answered his question. If you can't find a passage that suggests Jesus himself made a claim of divinity, then simply and honestly concede the point. Hell, even an "I don't know" would be an acceptable answer.

Here is one:

Exod. [3:14] God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.'"

John. [8:58] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

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What if the future we hope for depends on yesterday? We only have now to live the life.

jetson's question was: Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

None of the scripture you supplied answered his question. If you can't find a passage that suggests Jesus himself made a claim of divinity, then simply and honestly concede the point. Hell, even an "I don't know" would be an acceptable answer.

Here is one:

Exod. [3:14] God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.'"

John. [8:58] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

I don't see it sorry, Jesus refers to a third person, Who we will call I AM but he does not say it is himself, all Jetson is asking is "Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?" that can be anywhere OT or NT. Can anybody answer it? Will anybody answer it?We've had several failed attempts. Come on you xians.

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We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Fool, I asked you a specific question about Jesus, and you have not provided me a single example of Jesus calling himself divine.

I believe Jesus was a real person who walked the earth 2,000 years ago. I believe he brought a message of keeping Gods laws. I believe he was interested in teaching people to love their neighbor and honor God.

I do not believe the he considered himself God, and I would like you to answer the question. Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

Of course Jesus is a real person. You know how I know? Because I've seen him and talked to him---yeah buddy! I went out and asked him if he was divine, though, and really couldn't tell what he said since I don't speak Spanish. But he's doing a great job on my yard, for whatever that's worth. And actually, it's probably worth a lot more than some silly fairy tale written 2000 years ago about a bunch of mythological people. So for those of you christians who have to meet jesus, come on over to my house and we can all have a cold one. Si?

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A dictionary definition of fascism: The control of government by large corporations with right-wing ideologies, driven by bellicose nationalism.

jetson's question was: Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

None of the scripture you supplied answered his question. If you can't find a passage that suggests Jesus himself made a claim of divinity, then simply and honestly concede the point. Hell, even an "I don't know" would be an acceptable answer.

Here is one:

Exod. [3:14] God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.'"

John. [8:58] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

I don't see it sorry, Jesus refers to a third person, Who we will call I AM but he does not say it is himself, all Jetson is asking is "Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?" that can be anywhere OT or NT. Can anybody answer it? Will anybody answer it?We've had several failed attempts. Come on you xians.

That was a blatant denial. What about this one?

John 10:30 'I and the Father are one."

John [17:21] that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John [17:23] I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

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What if the future we hope for depends on yesterday? We only have now to live the life.

I have perused over that site. I just feel that it is tailored to to be negative to JC. The book of Isaiah prophesied the birth of JC centuries earlier.

Perhaps you are siding with the religious factions that were competing with and against JC. The people who persecuted xtians had the same ideology.

Making "every thought captive."

"For the weapons of our warfare are casting down imaginations ... and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." – St Paul, 2 Corinthians 10.4,5.

This does not mean making thoughts captive. It means being a realist. If our thoughts are not free but bound by reality, the reality gets animated. Reality does not have an attitude. It's the mind that supplies the attitude.

A more elaborate verse is John 7:24. Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."

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What if the future we hope for depends on yesterday? We only have now to live the life.

How can you love something you have never seen? What sort of love is this? Aren't you just enamoured by pictures and words? You cannot love someone you have not had any contact with. Name me one person in this world you have never seen or heard from that you "love"? If you can't do this then why do you claim to "love" your Jesus? Why should anyone not believe you are delusional?

Good question. In the Bible, the prophets constantly talk about the consolation and comfort of the Holy Spirit, and about a life which begins when God seals the elect believer with the Holy Spirit. Essentially God promises to always be with the Christian. God has means of grace, such as a body of believers, and meditating on Scripture, and the living practice of all the Christians who have gone before. So in the only way that matters for this life, I have God with me. Before I had God with me, He had written me letters, detailed notes about His feelings and intentions concerning me and the rest of the world. You are, when you ask about seeing God, essentially telling me that all relationships are skin deep.

I don't think relationships are skin deep.

So you love your god as you would love a person who wrote e-mails to you but not by name. Please tell me of your god’s intentions regarding Chinese people. I would like to know what he has in mind. Also, how does your love of your god compare with your love of your wife or child? I would suggest that if you answer your love for your god is greater that you need to see a psychriatrist.

You actually skirted around my questions. For instance you could not supply the name of just one person, whom you have never seen or heard from, in this world you ‘love.’

I did not assert that all relationships are skin deep. I did ask you what sort of love you have for your god and you did not answer. You only related how some life begins when your god ‘seals’ the elect (how did they get to be elect anyway?) with something you call the holy spirit. That sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. If god promises always to be with a xtian how come xtians screw up just like everyone else?

I could go on and pick and pick at what you say but to what purpose? How can you, an intelligent person, believe in this nonsense, which is invisible to you? I am afraid you will never think rationally and examine how you have been fooled, and keep on being fooled. It is a pity for sure.

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People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe. Max Bazenman, Harvard University

Mt 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. Mt 4:2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. Mt 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Mt 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ 14 ’” Mt 4:5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. Mt 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “ ‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ 15 ’” Mt 4:7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ 16 ’” Mt 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. Mt 4:9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ 17 ’” Mt 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Since Jesus never wrote anything, and the devil never wrote anything, and since no one else was in the desert with them,who exactly heard him say all of this stuff?

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The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard

The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

John [17:21] that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John [17:23] I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

In the instances you've cited, Jesus is quite obviously referring to the Father as a separate being from himself. If you are saying that his saying they are "in" each other is an indication of Jesus' deity, then it logically follows that believers are also divine since they are also "in" Jesus. Since human beings are NOT divine, then obviously this doesn't mean what you are purporting it to mean.

I don't see it sorry, Jesus refers to a third person, Who we will call I AM but he does not say it is himself, all Jetson is asking is "Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?" that can be anywhere OT or NT. Can anybody answer it? Will anybody answer it?We've had several failed attempts. Come on you xians.

That was a blatant denial.

How so!, it written there in black and white, where in that scripture does he actually say I am "I AM" he clearly talks about "I AM" in the third person.

Quote from: joseph

What about this one?

John 10:30 'I and the Father are one."

WOW! does it hurt when you stretch that much. Are you not one with your god, do you not feel he is your father, are you divine too.

Quote from: joseph

John [17:21] that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Here he just agrees with me in my above reply, that we are all one with god, including us thinking people.

Quote from: Joseph

John [17:23] I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

And again here.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 09:35:57 AM by bertatberts »

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We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

The mental gymnastics it takes to scam yourself like this are just STAGGERING.

Must be nice to rattle off scripture like machine gun fire while being able to spin virtually ANY of it in any way that's convenient to serve whatever point you're trying to make at the particular moment.

I guess that's one of the perks of having a god that writes ambiguous, open-ended, easily misconstrued gibberish in it's biography. It serves as a kind of philosophical rorshack test - just vague enough an ink blot to suggest 10 different things to the willing rube, yet just specific enough to be a semi-coherent text that can be read aloud for fun and profit.

Christ, can't people just ADMIT IT when they've got nuthin'? Do we really have to do this wack-a-mole "Hit 'em with a rolled up newspaper and rub their nose in it" song-and-dance every time? It's embarassing to everybody involved. It's embarassing to the theist because it's clear that they've s**t all over the carpet, and it's embarassing to the atheist because we have to stand there and watch them wander around the room all doe-eyed going "What? What s**t? I don't see any s**t. Oh that? That's not s**t. Clearly. It's obviously a cake that has yet to be eaten by somebody who's time travelling backwards."

Gah. WTF ever happened to intellectual honesty or integrity? :shrug

No. Instead we get this grasping-for-straws, twist the words around gimmick where words and sentences don't really mean what they say. Why not? Let's change meanings and definitions and "come to rational conclusions" based on irrational statements for EVERY book. That way, you'd never have to face the unpleasent notion that the facts didn't line up with your pre-conceived conclusions!

I bet I could paint Hannibal Lector as a quantum Buddhist if I followed Christian interpretational tactics.

"I can smell your _______ , Clarise!" -

Cleary here he was saying that a"smell", being the essence of Clarise's latent molecular structure, was directly indicative of an Enlightened state that resided within the metaphorical ____, being of course a higher plane of consiousness that resides between two worlds, much like a person's genitals are (usually) located between two legs.

Easy enough. Except the guy who wrote Silence of the Lambs wasn't an ALL KNOWING *GOD*. It was written by a person. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a *GOD* would have the clarity of thought and eloquent mastery of language to say what it fucking means, in no uncertain terms, without being vague or cryptic or leaving things open to interpretation.

Hell, even the Tao of Pooh and Chicken Soup for the Soul are fifty times as clear on these things.