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Jackson PetersonAndré A. Pais
casualty can’t be because “nothing” has arisen, yet that “nothing”
seems to be always arising! How magical! The natural order and
perfection of detail infused as each depth of perception, thought and
experience, self-reveals a profound intelligence pervading at every
hierarchy.

André A. PaisIntrinsic
intelligence is undeniable to me. That it arises from a source is not,
imo. Or that it amounts to a cosmic, global mind is troublesome too.

Causality is a conventional term, I'll grant you that. It points to the flux of things, in which there
is actually no things at all. But it is rather safer, for me, than the
idea of a source or untouched awareness. It is more in line with the
luminous flux of experience and the logical reasonings of Madhyamaka.
Your words are more in line with identity views.

Jackson PetersonAndré A. Pais
not really, because the flux is all there is, but it’s self-organizing
capacity at every level implies and insists on some kind of inherent
order. When we look into the flux itself as thoughts, images,
perceptions and sensations; in deep meditation,
their material solidity vanishes leaving only a brilliant “knowing
awareness”. Do this investigation yourself. Look at each perception ,
thought, color, sound and sensation. All that remains is an empty
awareness that was itself appearing AS perceptions, thoughts, colors,
sounds and sensations. It’s non-dual. Waves, currents and whirlpools are
all H2O appearing as waves, currents and whirlpools. In this case H2O
is “empty awareness” itself that’s appearing! Emptiness is form and form
is emptiness.

Soh Wei YuWhen
all gross thoughts and sensations disappear, there is an undeniable
sense of Presence or Beingness. But this too is an appearance no more
special than other appearance. They have the same taste. Empty and
luminous.

Jackson PetersonSoh Wei Yu
what is the nature of this knowingness while appearing as this sound or
this color; can and does appear as infinite varieties of appearances
all interacting in perfect precision? What assures this precision, or
that gravity and entropy remain as
standard features affecting all appearances? Do these intrinsic
qualities of all phenomena, adhere to the knowingness or to the
appearances? If either, aren’t you committing to inherent
characteristics? We do say there are indeed inherent characteristics of
the Buddha Nature like a fundamental “goodness” and luminosity, and
knowingness.

The
first course of his teaching concerned recognizing the nature of
samsara is itself a dissatisfaction. He then proceeds to describe how
this samsara arises and how it can come to cessation. This concerned having a correct “view” of the nature reality and experience.

The
second course of his teachings concerned realizing the thoroughly empty
nature of all phenomena and the self that seems to exist as a
perceiver; as both being real, objectively existing phenomena. The
focus is upon realizing that both a self and an objective world are
merely conceptual constructions never existing outside of a mental
process, which is their actual empty nature. All phenomena, including a
self, are never more than the thoughts configuring them. Seeing the
empty nature of a single thought as being an ungraspable appearance like
a cloud in the sky, reveals the self and all phenomena to be only empty
thoughts that vividly appear but without any solid features that can be
grasped. This wisdom of the empty nature of all phenomena is called
“prajna”.

The third course of the Buddha’s
teachings revealed the Buddha Nature, as being the wisdom consciousness
which all appearances and thoughts actually are. The third course
assured an incorrect, nihilistic view of the second course of emptiness
teachings, doesn’t occur. Self and phenomena are indeed empty of
inherent existence, as being only thought constructions, but yet are
manifestations of a very deep and profound Buddha Nature, which is
always present changelessly, as current awareness. All phenomena are
known to be this aware Buddha Nature itself. Nothing is inanimate, all
is Buddha Consciousness appearing, while never actually arising as
“anything objectively real” due to their insubstantial emptiness as
being merely thought constructions. Thoughts are also this empty, yet
appearing, Buddha Nature.

Investigating into the
most essential quality of this Buddha Nature itself, reveals it as being
an undefinable emptiness, yet a matrix of infinite wisdoms and a
fundamental “goodness” that exceeds all conceptual descriptions of
thought itself.

Knowing directly one’s ultimate
nature as being this Buddha Nature, as the empty Ground of Awareness, is
a non-conceptual gnosis or wisdom called jnana or rigpa.

All
of Buddhism is contained within the non-dual wisdoms of prajna, as the
wisdom of emptiness, and jnana as the wisdom of the Buddha Nature, which
together transcend the extreme of nihilism and the extreme of
inherently existing selves and phenomena.

Soh Wei YuThere
is neither an existing Buddha nature on the subjective side nor things
on the objective side that possess inherently existing characteristics.
And these characteristics cannot be found apart from appearance. You can
say or describe the Rose as red, but
the redness of rose can neither be found to belong to the mind, the
sense organs, Nor the object. A dog doesn’t see red. If we examine the
quantum properties we see mostly space. Red is dependently originating
and nowhere to be found in here, out there or in between, and yet it is
an apt description of what’s appearing in the moment.

Awareness
cannot be found apart from what’s appearing. There is no fixed
changeless awareness remaining unchanged by appearance. When we say mind
is appearance and that is vivid clarity, we are simply describing the
realisation or taste of empty mind/appearance that is without division.
We are not attributing anything to an inherently existing entity. There
is nothing hiding anywhere, just vivid appearance. Awareness don’t
“appear as”, as if there is a hidden underlying hidden substratum that
can choose to show itself or not. We can say Buddha nature has
characteristics but they are all simply descriptive and not assertive.

Jackson PetersonSoh Wei Yu you avoided my pointed questions; How
can appearances arise as being dependent upon prior causes and
conditions when no prior causes or conditions have ever arisen? And if
something has actually arisen, then it has to be inherently existing and
not impermanent. And then what is this quality that knows the redness
of a rose isn’t a sound?

Soh Wei YuYour
view is 100% no different from Advaita. Shankara understands the world
as illusory but not through the principle of dependent origination.

Shankara, "The world appears as if real only so long as Brahman which is the non-dual substrate of all has not been known . . . ([194],13)."If
there were truly existing causes and conditions and effects, then there
can never be dependent origination as each would be distinct, concrete,
independent of conditions, solid and separate. But because they do not
truly arise as inherently existing entities, rowing the boat makes the
mountain moves and the boat what it is, even if boat and mountain
doesn't mean, they are totally exerted in seamless activity. The
question "what knows" is as flawed as the question "what rains" --
there is simply no 'it' that rains, apart from that rain dropping,
falling.

Knowingness, awareness, is always simply
the vivid clarity of appearance. There is nothing hidden behind
appearance 'reflecting' appearance. Appearances are self-illuminating
presencing. Knowing is simply a quality of experience like red is a
quality of the experience we call 'rose', it doesn't belong to anything
nor does it truly exist anywhere. There is no need to postulate an
entity to which the qualities of illumination or knowing belong to. We
do not say "what is it that salties" when we taste salty seawater, it's
just a quality of experience and that saltiness cannot be found apart
from that taste of seawater, nor does it belong 'inside' seawater, nor
does it exist 'inside' our mind, or anywhere in between (as with the red
rose).

The Dzogchen master Jigme Lingpa states,

"We hold that the outer object does not exist, and the awareness that apprehends it does not exist either."

Criticizing the substantialist nondual view, he further states,

"The
awareness that realizes the apprehender and apprehended as nondual is a
reflexive awareness and a reflexive luminosity. This is designated as
truly existent. This is the alaya-vijnana. Actions and their result are
based on it"

Another great Dzogchen master Mipham states,"When
the appearances of perceived objects is established as not having an
essence separate from the perceiving subject, the appearance of the
perceiving subject is also established as nonexistent. If [one wonders]
why, it is because the perceiving subject is established in dependence
upon the perceived object; it is never established on its own."

Another Dzogchen text states,

“Hey,
hey, apparent yet nonexistent retinue: listen well! There is no object
to distinguish in me, the view of self-originated wisdom; it did not
exist before, it will not arise later, and also does not appear in
anyway in the present. The path does not exist, action does not exist,
traces do not exist, ignorance does not exist, thoughts do not exist,
mind does not exist, prajñā does not exist, samsara does not exist,
nirvana does not exist, vidyā (rigpa) itself does not even exist,
totally not appearing in anyway.”-- Unwritten Tantra

Jackson PetersonSoh Wei Yu
I already proved my case with the Kunje Gyalpo quotes that you still
ignore as though you can translate Tibetan better than Jim Valby. Jigme
Lingpa is not speaking about non-dual rigpa, he is using the word
“namshe” for Awareness, which is a dualistic consciousness .

Soh Wei YuThere are many quotes, including the above that I have posted, that are talking about the insubstantiality of rigpa, basis, etc.

The Six Dimensions Tantra states:

"Also,
the aspects of the essence, nature, and compassion appear to the
intelligent. Since the essence is not established at all, that nature
clearly appears as the apparent aspect and the two pristine
consciousnesses come from compassion's aspect having risen without
action or agent."

Vimalamitra states,

"Since
this (basis) is not established as existent or substantial, it also
cannot be confirmed through any argument. Since it is not a blank
emptiness, cognitive clarity arises manifesting as the essence of one's
vidya."

He further states,

"Since
this [basis] is not established as any sort of entity, it is free from a
basis of designation. It is liberated naturally, meaning the moment it
appears, there is nothing to adopt or reject, nor negate or prove."

The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra states,

"Because
there is nothing substantial that can be apprehended in the pristine
consciousness of the pure dharmakaya, it is not designated as a
possessor of signs. If there were a sign, the dharmakaya could be
apprehended."

Arcarya Vimalamitra states,

"The
basis, the state of initial original purity, is liberated because its
essence is not established at all. Its nature appears as everything and
its compassion arises in every way."

Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra states,

"The mode in which the nature's light manifestsis white, red, yellow, green, and blue,which are not signifying attributes.The naturally perfect object of knowledge is free from attributes.Other than compassion arising as a diversity,it is not defined as one thing, "it is like this."Because a diversity appears, it is called "the basis."

Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra also stated, "The nature is the unimpeded five lights."

It
does not say that the basis is something which "apprehends" or "knows"
the five lights. It is the five lights. Very importantly, the Dzogchen
texts and tantras does not substantialize rigpa, basis in any way.

Soh Wei YuAnd as for the 'source' you keep talking about, that too is nonexistent -

The Heap of Jewels Tantra states:

From the nonexistent empty source of phenomenathe primordial Adibuddhahas always turned the wheel of Dharma as the intrinsic sound of empty dharmatathrough the special pristine consciousness of vidyawithout a beginning, middle, or an end.

Joel AgeeI posted this on another list. Jackson suggested I post it here:

Here
are two sentences from one of the oldest Dzogchen texts, The
All-Creating Monarch (Kunjed Gyalpo) quoted in Longchenpa's Precious
Treasury of the Way of Abiding (Richard Barron's translation):

“Seek the location of the heart essence through phenomena that derive from itand come to appreciate it through the skillful means of not conceptualizing in any way whatsoever.Since the heart essence occurs naturally, dharmakaya is not elsewhere.”

Coming across these lines had a vividly awakening effect on me.Like · · Unfollow Post · September 2, 2012 at 1:29pm

Dannon Flynn, Steven Monaco, Neony Karby and 6 others like this.

Joel
Agee Simple but profound and ongoing: a deconstruction of an
unconscious habit of locating awareness anywhere else than in the
moment-to-moment transient phenomena. Whoosh! No observer, no witness.
No location!September 2, 2012 at 1:44pm · Unlike · 10

...

Joel
Agee Chris, I'm not sure I can explain exactly. There's a frequent and
delightful experience of being "confirmed" by sounds and sights,
especially sounds. Greater appreciation of what shows up from moment to
moment, a kind of energy of being available for anything. More
spontaneous ease in action and speech and thought. But in a way this is
all secondary. The recognition of awareness is unobstructed. Sometimes
it seems to be obscured by thoughts and feelings, and then it's obvious
that those too are the clarity and the emptiness. RIght now there's joy
in seeing and saying this.September 2, 2012 at 2:01pm · Like · 10

...

Joel
Agee Chris, I think you’re missing part of the point in what Soh is
talking about. Some concepts are held to be self-evident, so we never
question or even notice them. For instance, in my case until recently,
the view that awareness was a) something, and b) somewhere.
"Intellectually" I knew better, but in my unconscious organically based
felt sense, that was an unquestioned reality until those words in the
Kunjed Gyalpo jarred me out of that dream. So it’s not "just words,"
because words and concepts shape our experience when they are invested
with belief. This is true even of simple figures of speech. What Jackson
just wrote suggests, for instance, that Douglas’s term “Seeing” is
itself misleading if left unexamined.September 4, 2012 at 12:09am · Unlike · 4

...

Joel
Agee I will try to describe what it is that rings true for me in
Thusness’s words. I don’t have a theoretical preference for the early
Buddhist teachings over the later ones, including Dzogchen. In fact I
know very little about the Pali Canon. My approach isn’t conceptual or
theoretical at all. I look directly into the nature of my own
consciousness in silent, objectless sitting meditation – shikantaza if
you will. Whatever doesn’t meet the test of direct experience holds no
lasting interest for me.

Until fairly recently, the
metaphor of the mirror and its reflections seemed a fitting image of my
contemplative experience: that there is an unchanging, ever-present,
imperturbable awareness that is the absolute ground and the very
substance of phenomena, and that while this motionless, contentless
awareness-presence is inseparable from the ceaseless coming and going of
appearances, it also transcends everything that shows up, remaining
untouched, unstained, absolute and indestructible.

A
couple of years ago I discovered Soh’s blog, Awakening to Reality, and
in it Soh’s account of his exploration of the Bahiya Sutta and the Zen
Priest Alex Weith’s report on his realization of Anatta through
practical application of the Bahiya Sutta. I saw then that Anatta was
not fully realized in my experience. The illusory nature of a separate
unchanging personal self had been seen through, but an unconscious
identification with “Awareness” or “rigpa” had taken its place.

Since
then, an unstoppable deconstruction of that impersonal background
identity has been happening in my contemplation and in my daily life.
There is still a noticeable attachment to the memory of that subtle Home
Base. It shows up as a tendency to "lean back" from the unpredictable
brilliance and dynamism of the moment into a static, subtly blissful
background presence. But there is no longer a belief in an Awareness
that is anything other than, or greater than, or deeper than, THIS
sound, THIS smile or stirring of emotion, THIS glance of light. There is
no Mirror that is not the reflections.

So the shift
in my experience and practice is not a preference for one teaching over
another. It’s an ongoing realization that direct contact with the grain
and texture of moment-by-moment experience is what Dogen meant by
“being awakened by the ten thousand things.”January 2 at 3:20am · Unlike · 6

"Without gaining certainty in primordial purity, merely an impassionedthought of a ground that is neither existent nor nonexistentwill bring you nowhere. If you hold onto such a ground, which isempty of both existence and nonexistence, as separate and establishedby its own essence, whether it is called the inconceivable Self,Brahma, Vis.n.u, Īśvara, wisdom, etc., it is merely a different namefor a similar [mistaken] meaning. The abiding reality that is freefrom the four extremes—the luminous clarity of the Great Perfectionwhich is realized reflexively—is not at all like that.9"

"Awareness (rig pa) and luminous clarity (’od gsal) are posited fromthe aspect of appearance, but are not separate from emptiness. Also,“emptiness” is not separate from appearance. In reality, unity aloneis suchness; it is thoroughly important that neither emptiness norappearance on its own is the great suchness, the consummate ultimate.From here the essential points of all of Sūtra and Mantra areunraveled."

"“The abiding reality isthe unity of appearance and emptiness from the beginning.”"

"From only the aspect of being free from constructsThe two are said to not be distinct;In order to avert adherence to emptinessGreat bliss is taught in Mantra.The nondual expanse of empty blissIs experienced through a mannerThat is free from subject and object.“Appearance” (snang ba), “clarity” (gsal ba), and “awareness” (rig pa)Are the synonyms for this “bliss” (bde ba).47"Mipham criticizes the interpretation of a non-empty Buddha-nature thatis truly established:

"Also by reasoned analysis, due to the essential point that Buddhanatureis essentially empty, it impartially appears in all aspects ofquality: it is suitable to be the suchness of mind, all-pervasive everywhere,permanent as long as time, inconceivable. However, while notempty of its own essence, being truly established it is completelyimpossible to be the suchness of an extrinsic phenomenon, etc. Italso cannot be the outcome of ascertainment by the valid cognitionof ultimate analysis because the affirmation of something truly establishedis not accurate as a handprint [result] of the analysis of all phenomenalacking true existence—like darkness [arising] from light.True establishment is not established by conventional valid cognitioneither because even though [it may appear to be] truly establishedfrom that [conventional] perspective, by merely that there is never anability to establish phenomena to be non-empty. Without being ableto be established by the two valid cognitions, the means of establishmenthas gone the way of a [nonexistent] space-flower; therefore,establishing this becomes meaninglessly tiresome.1"

...

Update: more Dzogchen quotationsThe Dzogchen text Dochu says:

"The buddhas of the five great elements are manifest enlightenment, Pure Perfect Presence."

"The
phenomena of mind and objects are understood to be the four extremes.
Phenomena perceived without object and subject are primordial Mind,
which transcends the domain of names and characteristics. For these
reasons, everything of the animate and inanimate universe is included in
the Body, Voice, and Mind of Pure Perfect (Presence)."

From Dzogchen text the Gyutrul says:

"The
components of the vajra aggregates are known as the five perfect
buddhas. All the many sense bases and constituentts are the mandala of
bodhisattvas. Earth and water are Locana and Mamaki. Fire and wind are
Pandaravasini and Tara. Space is Dhatvishvari. The three worlds are
primordial enlightenment. Absolutely everything, without exception, is
nothing other than the state of enlightenment. Buddha himself could
never discover some phenomenon that is other than the state of
enlightenment.

The Dzogpa Rangjung says:

In
the universe as limitless as space, without any exceptions, all
sentient beings of the three worlds and the varieties of forms that
manifest in any way are the mandala of mudras. Whatever sounds are heard
are the syllables of mantras. The multiplicity of mind's concepts are
inconceivable millions of contemplations. Any and all good and bad
actions are the deeds of buddhas. Absolutely everything everywhere,
including everything animate, inanimate, and material, is the mandala of
the victorious ones.

The Changchub Semkyi Do says:

In
correspondence with this (space) example is the phenomenon called
"meaning.". This meaning is "unborn". Because the essence of unborn
(meaning) has no cause and cannot be produced, Presence has no cause and
cannot be produced. Although existent phenomena are produced through
causes, the meaning of "unborn" is that the space of (these existent)
phenomena has no cause. All phenomena are unborn. "Unborn" refer to the
manifest enlightenment of Pure Perfect (Presence).

The Choying Rinpochei Dzo says:

The
signs are all the manifesting tsal energies. When these energies
manifest, there is no ground of manifestation and no agent of
manifestation. The name assigned to these manifestations is impartial,
equal, all-encompassing "space".

Khenpo Zhenpen Oser:

Glorious
Nagarjuna also understood the principle of essential knowledge, that
all phenomena are totally interdependent and conclusively unborn.

The Dochu says:

Because
all phenomena, however they appear, are primordially uncompounded, they
abide as the real condition. Thus is explained the method of the real
condition.