Lagers and Ales... can't we all just get along?!

It's a lot more exciting (and fun) to take a positive approach to that exploration, rather than using your articulate argument for why you love what you love to put down others tastes. At least that's what I'm taking away from this discussion.

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Yep -- the diversity in beers available these days is just too vast to settle on one thing only, let alone proclaim it King of the World.

When I first picked up one of Jackson's books in the late 80s what struck me was the wide variety of beers the world around. It made me want to visit each and every spot to try the beers being highlighted. I'm pretty close to that goal!

I still say if you're a "beer drinker" and can't yet appreciate a great pils your palate hasn't arrived yet.

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At least one of the different kinds of pilsner. My wife's as geeky as they come but Czech pilsners disgust her. Can't say I'm a huge fan either. However German one (especially the Franconian ones like Herren Pils) are among my favorites.

Loved Muehlen. Also loved Paeffgen. Matter of fact, I tweaked my Koelsch recipe after the past trip and brewed 30 gallons based on my impressions of Paeffgen. As of yesterday, I was 5 weeks into fermentaion/lagering, so I pulled a sample. I was immediately transported back to Koeln. I think I've now (finally) nailed the Koelsch I want to brew. One sample ended up turning into a 7-8 Stangen...everything really tasted perfect, and as fresh as could be. Prost!

It's for 30 gallons. I could try and scale it down, but I'm not at all sure it'd produce the same results. I will say, however, that one of the most satisfying things was that I managed to produce exactly what I was going for while simplifying both the recipe and process considerably. Happy to provide the 30 gal recipe and #s (including things like efficiency, fermentation temps over the course of the 5 weeks, amounts of yeast nutrient added, etc.) if you like.

I have been a vocal advocate of lagers here on the forums for a bit now. In all my conversations I have noticed two things: one good, one bad.

The good. Many people have the attitude of "if it's good I'll drink it, doesn't matter if it's a lager or an ale."

The bad. The hate is one sided. I have never seen a self-proclaimed lager lover hating on ales, but I have seen ale lovers hating on lagers. Stuff like "lagers suck" or "lagers are weak" or "lagers are swill" are sentences I have seen. I have never seen anyone write those sentences with ale as a replacement.

My position is that of, if it's good I will drink it. Right now I lean heavy towards lagers. I cry tears for the fact that Sierra Nevada Glissade is no more and that Victory St. Boisterous is now draft only (and not near me). With that said, in my fridge is a solid supply of 3 Beans, Mayflower Porter and Torpedo. I write stuff on beeradvocate promoting lagers not because I think they are superior, but because I wish they got more love. The way I see it, the more interest generated in them, the more likely breweries make them. I'd like to see that, as having an equal amount of Helles Bocks as DIPA's at my local bottle shop would be better than having one million options for DIPA's and a dusty old sixer of Helles in the corner.

why some people have already told me some Baltic porters are made using lager yeast and I like arcadia ales shipwreck porter

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Nothing personal, but it's analogous to a BMC drinker who goes to a craft brewery and says they'd love to try a craft ale that tastes like Bud Light. Just because the place may have a Blonde Ale to offer, doesn't mean that the Bud drinker has now become truly adventurous.

On the contrary, the rebellion among many craft drinkers against anything resembling BMC has gotten so extreme as to bring them full-circle, so that many now stand back-to-back with -- and share nearly identical exclusive views with -- the very drinkers of the brews they rebelled against.

At least one of the different kinds of pilsner. My wife's as geeky as they come but Czech pilsners disgust her. Can't say I'm a huge fan either. However German one (especially the Franconian ones like Herren Pils) are among my favorites.

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I hear ya but I find that dramatic a difference in response to two styles that closely related very surprising.

I hear ya but I find that dramatic a difference in response to two styles that closely related very surprising.

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Honestly, it tends to comes down to diacetyl. While not in all Czech pilsners, it's in a great number of them and is considered to be acceptable if mild. My wife hates that buttery note (in beers at least) with a passion and because she's always noting it in things, I've become more sensitive to it as well. I can still drink some beers with it like Urquell, but it's not my favorite.
I guess melanoidin malt can sometimes produce a flavor that heads in that direction, too...and I'm not a huge fan of that either.

I was thinking the same thing. Celebrator is actually one of the only lagers on BA that gets due respect. It's been on the top beers list forever and is readily available, too. Korbinian would be another although sometimes it gets lost in the mix a little more.

I started out drinking pilsners, lagers, ambers, etc. when I began drinking craft (real) beers. Later on I found a liking to the stronger beers, ales, IPAs, barleywines, porters, stouts, etc.. I have to say I find it hard to go back to the less strong tasting beers now. Although a nice lager or golden ale or such goes down nice in hot weather. To each his or her own. There shouldn't be a craft divide between beers. The breweries are going to make all beers to accommodate all drinkers. There should be craft pilsners, lagers, whatever. Drink what you like and other people should be able to enjoy what they like. We don't need beer fights like this. Have a friendly discussion over a quaff or two.

I guess underared was a bad choice of words. More like its better than most of the hyped brews on here. Taken for granted I guess. No need to have threads about something you can buy off the shelf any day of the week.

Honestly, it tends to comes down to diacetyl. While not in all Czech pilsners, it's in a great number of them and is considered to be acceptable if mild. My wife hates that buttery note (in beers at least) with a passion and because she's always noting it in things, I've become more sensitive to it as well. I can still drink some beers with it like Urquell, but it's not my favorite.
I guess melanoidin malt can sometimes produce a flavor that heads in that direction, too...and I'm not a huge fan of that either.

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Granted as a style Czech pils tend to be nuttier and richer. If you have a particular sensitivity to that it makes more sense. But again I'd expect a dramatic difference in response between German Pils and RIS than German and Czech pils.

To his defense, he did qualify with that being "his opinion," doesn't happen too often.

Lagers like Korbinian and other doppelbocks are bolder than many ale styles. You gotta be more specific.

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And once again, it's not about comparison -- it's about understanding what you're getting. Just like apples and oranges, top-fermenting and bottom-fermenting shouldn't be compared to each other... just enjoyed!

To his defense, he did qualify with that being "his opinion," doesn't happen too often.

And once again, it's not about comparison -- it's about understanding what you're getting. Just like apples and oranges, top-fermenting and bottom-fermenting shouldn't be compared to each other... just enjoyed!

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Opinions should be based on facts and be reasonable. Korbinian (a lager) is more powerful than an English Mild (an ale) by any reasonable judgment considering color, abv, gravity, etc. And I'm not clear on your comparison statement since that's what the post I responded to did.

While I agree with that, I was just saying it was nice to see someone actually calling it their opinion, not just stating some internet-bred drivel as blind fact. Might be that the previous poster has had the unfortunate luck to not have had a bolder, full-flavored lager. His loss, and that shrouds his opinion.

And I'm not clear on your comparison statement since that's what the post I responded to did.

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Believe me, we're on the same page -- and I'm just making conversation to reinforce that comparisons should not really be made, but each style should be enjoyed as it's meant to be. As you say, Korbinian shouldn't be compared with Conniston Blue Bird -- just as Weihenstephaner Helles shouldn't be compared to Old Rasputin Imperial Stout... and then be called inferior because it's "not the same."

While I agree with that, I was just saying it was nice to see someone actually calling it their opinion, not just stating some internet-bred drivel as blind fact. Might be that the previous poster has had the unfortunate luck to not have had a bolder, full-flavored lager. His loss, and that shrouds his opinion.

Believe me, we're on the same page -- and I'm just making conversation to reinforce that comparisons should not really be made, but each style should be enjoyed as it's meant to be. As you say, Korbinian shouldn't be compared with Conniston Blue Bird -- just as Weihenstephaner Helles shouldn't be compared to Old Rasputin Imperial Stout... and then be called inferior because it's "not the same."

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If your someone who really likes stouts and you like the RIS better than in your opinion the Helles is inferior of all the lager styles I've tried the only one I'd buy again is Baltic Porter.

One particular quote from the CEO of General Mills -- in the context of his unwillingness to consider toning down his products' recipes in light of the recent spikes in obesity -- struck me as fitting: “Don’t talk to me about nutrition.... Talk to me about taste, and if this stuff tastes better, don’t run around trying to sell stuff that doesn’t taste good.”

And the secret to what makes his products taste "better": sweetness/sugar. Similarly, if you look at the Top Beers here on BA, you see a LOT of the same type of thing: chocolate, vanilla, bourbon, maple, dark fruit, mango, pineapple, apricots, peaches -- plus higher alcohol (i.e. sugar) levels. (See the part in the article about "optimizing" flavors...interesting)

I know that while living in Germany and drinking (what I shoot my mouth off on here about being) the best beers in the world, I would nevertheless frequently find myself literally craving a big (D)IPA or RIS. Michael Jackson used to refer to beers of this type as "dessert beers." I still tend to treat these “big” beers this way: my “main course” is usually comprised of a few good lagers, while I tend to reserve the (D)IPAs and RISs for "treats."

One particular quote from the CEO of General Mills -- in the context of his unwillingness to consider toning down his products' recipes in light of the recent spikes in obesity -- struck me as fitting: “Don’t talk to me about nutrition.... Talk to me about taste, and if this stuff tastes better, don’t run around trying to sell stuff that doesn’t taste good.”

And the secret to what makes his products taste "better": sweetness/sugar. Similarly, if you look at the Top Beers here on BA, you see a LOT of the same type of thing: chocolate, vanilla, bourbon, maple, dark fruit, mango, pineapple, apricots, peaches -- plus higher alcohol (i.e. sugar) levels. (See the part in the article about "optimizing" flavors...interesting)

I know that while living in Germany and drinking (what I shoot my mouth off on here about being) the best beers in the world, I would nevertheless frequently find myself literally craving a big (D)IPA or RIS. Michael Jackson used to refer to beers of this type as "dessert beers." I still tend to treat these “big” beers this way: my “main course” is usually comprised of a few good lagers, while I tend to reserve the (D)IPAs and RISs for "treats."

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USA makes the best beers by far and yes I've been to Europe including Germany and Belgium they make good beer but it's not even close to the US

If your someone who really likes stouts and you like the RIS better than in your opinion the Helles is inferior of all the lager styles I've tried the only one I'd buy again is Baltic Porter.

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I know this will be difficult to grasp, but I like just about every style. I choose what I'm drinking based on what is striking my fancy at the moment, not on what's the latest fad or what's going to hit me over the head.

And that's been my point all along -- you can't compare a Munich Helles to an Imperial Stout, let alone call one inferior. It's like comparing steak to ribs; both are good and worth a spot on my dinner plate.