''(Add any items which pass or are blocked to the [[Consensus Items History]] page.)''

''(Add any items which pass or are blocked to the [[Consensus Items History]] page.)''

−

Malaclyps: Is worried that if we spent 10K on party + sent someone to singapore (like last time), I would feel guilty because he works w/ foundation. So this 10 grand will go to our prudent reserve. So wouldn't want to spend it on specific projuects, just two months' operating expenses. The other objection that had been cited was that the Thiel foundation connected to Peter Thiel, and Peter Thiel connected to Palantir, which datamines for the state.

−

Leif: Not the problem that Palantir datamines for the state, but that it was mentioned in the Bank of America-connected attack on journalists reporting on Wikileaks. He is aalso not a fan of the source of Thiel's wealth: Paypal + facebook. He agreed long ago at last meetings to stand aside but thinks we really, really shouldn't do this. It's not as no-straightforward as it's being made to sound. I understand we can pay a rent, but if they wanted to sue, which he doesn't think they do, they sue us over the contract. It's important to understand that we are entering into a contract that says this 10K is only for operating expenses. We can give them a receipt, but that doesn't make me feel any better about this.

+

Malaclyps: I would be worried if we spent 10K on party + sent someone to Singapore (like last time), I would feel guilty because I work w/ foundation. So this 10 grand will go to our prudent reserve. So I wouldn't want to spend it on specific projects, just two months' rent. The other objection that had been cited was that the Thiel foundation connected to Peter Thiel, and Peter Thiel connected to Palantir, which datamines for the state.

−

Ben: Don't see a problem. That's that they *want* us to spend it on.

+

Leif: Not the problem that Palantir datamines for the state, but that it was mentioned in the Bank of America-connected attack on journalists reporting on Wikileaks. He is also not a fan of the source of Thiel's wealth: PayPal + Facebook. He agreed long ago at last meetings to stand aside but thinks we really, really shouldn't do this. It's not as no-strings-attached as it's being made to sound. I understand we can pay rent, but if they wanted to sue, which he doesn't think they do, they could. It's important to understand that we are entering into a contract that says this $10,000 is only for operating expenses and we can give them a receipt, but that doesn't make me feel any better about this.

+

+

Ben: Doesn't see a problem. That's what they ''want'' us to spend it on.

Leif: But we're ALREADY paying our rent.

Leif: But we're ALREADY paying our rent.

−

Malaclyps: I've worked w/ Thiel fund a lot in past couple of years. I'm not sure he can speak to all the connections, but i can really say they would be totally happy spending this on operating expenses only, and, i'm totally happy being the person saying we spent it on just that. I have a continuing relationship with them so i would lose a lot more than just getting sued as a board member, so willing to put a lot more than that on the line for this.

+

Malaclyps: I've worked w/ Thiel fund a lot in past couple of years. I'm not sure he can speak to all the connections, but I can really say they would be totally happy spending this on rent, I'm totally happy being the person saying we spent it on rent, I have a continuing relationship with them so I would lose a lot more than just getting sued as a board member, so willing to put a lot more than that on the line for this, including my current job.

+

+

Alex: Have had dealings with "PayPal mafia." At [[Hackmeet]] a while ago, a friend of his "hazed" him for wearing a T-shirt which has a Palantir logo on it. Feels bad being associated with Palantir on the face of it, but the shirt is for an organization called Hack the Future and a bunch of people who work at Palantir help with that, are just hackers like us who happen to work for a shady company. Met the CEO of Palantir and asked him right out, "How do you explain your own actions?" said they wanted to make this software to make sure no one would abuse software like it But there's also the thing this is about, which is the 20 Under 20... speaking tomorrow at Hackademic camp. unschooling folks...was originally asked by Danielle about coming to Noisebridge. Hasn't seen contract till tonight but only has obligation of one 501(c)3 to another. The Thiel fellowship is just a bunch of smart kids under 20, and we should welcome them. I hope when someone says, "I heard about this from the Thiel fellowship," that we don't attack those newcomers. There's the utopian positive arm of Thiel's work, and then there's the evil capitalist arm, but the utopians are awesome.

+

+

Lizzard: That touches on the other thing brought up, you mention your T-shirt as an example; people felt that the fact that you're wearing it "excuses them" because they are using Alex' social capital to deflect from their negative image.

+

+

Malaclyps: Just to be explicit, Thiel Foundation is different from Palantir. And I also don't think TF is particularly interested in riding off Noisebridge's social capital. They have plenty from other eccentric hacker projects.

+

+

Alex: When there's a direct "this is going into bed with this group," but here it's enough places removed it shouldn't be an issue.

+

Used to black-marker all Microsoft logos off his shirts but hasn't gotten around to it with Hack the Future tees.

+

+

Malaclyps: Proposes putting up for consensus.

+

+

Carlos: Asks what Leif would do if it passed consensus.

+

+

Leif: Would not block, but would stop paying Noisebridge dues for 1 year. Will probably spend his personal surplus on nb projects

+

+

Moderator: Proposals for next week...

−

Alex: dealings w/ paypal mafia

−

at hackmeet a while ago. a friend of his "hazed" him for wearing "hack the future" shirt. feels bad being associated with tear on the face of it, but the shirt is for an org called hack the furuture and a bunch of ppl work at , just hackers like us who happen to work for a shady company.

−

asked him str8 up, "aht the hell? how do you wepxlain your won actions?" said they wanted to make this softwae to make sure no one would abuse sw like it.

−

But ther's a thing this is about, which is the 20 under 20... sepeaking tomororw at hackademic camp. unschooling folks...originally asked by danielle abt coming to nb, sorry, really busy. hasn't seen contract till tonight but only has obligation of 1 501c3 to another

−

teal fellowship is just a bunch of smart kids under 20, and we should welcome them.

−

i hope when someone saysd, "I heard about this from the teal fellowship," they we don't attack the n00bs.

−

There's the utiopian positive arm of tf, and then abi evil capitalist arm, but utopians are awesome.

−

OTher thing brough upt , tshirt as example, fact that you're wearing it "exuses them" because using alex' social capital of wearing shirt.

−

Malc: different from the teal foundation

−

also don't thing tf is particularly interested in riding off nb's social capital

−

or would even think of it

−

malc: they have plenty

−

alex: when there's a drecte "his is going into bed with this" but it's enough places removed it shouldn't be an issue.

−

used to black-marker all m$ logos off shirts but hasn't gotten around to it w/ hack/future t's.

−

Malac: proposes putting up for consensus.

−

Leif: stops paying nb dues for 1 yr.

−

will probably spend his personal surplus on nb projects

−

mod: proposals for next week...

Malaclyps: No, no, no! Consensus! You need to do the magic words.

Malaclyps: No, no, no! Consensus! You need to do the magic words.

+

Stand aside? Block?

Stand aside? Block?

+

As such, it is the consensus of Noisebridge that we are taking this money.

As such, it is the consensus of Noisebridge that we are taking this money.

−

Malac: Yuck!

+

−

@: Do-overs?

+

Malaclyps: Yuck! Does everyone *really* feel okay with this?

−

feels like ppl really want to use the money to do "something"

+

−

Is that consensus? I don't think it is.

+

Snail: Asks whether consensus has do-overs.

−

Is anybody about taking this money?

+

−

Alex: I am!

+

Malaclyps: Is that consensus? I don't think it is.<br> Is anybody enthusiastic about taking this money?

−

Formally noted what it is spent for

+

−

Snail: + we don't have long discussions on what it's spent on

+

(Murmurs of assent)

−

malc: prooposes it's the con

+

−

Trying to find wording that makes us feel better abt taking $$$.

+

Malaclyps: We should formally note what it is spent for in consensus.

−

If we're worried it's not consesnsus we should do it.

+

−

Worried Leif + Carlos aren't happy.

+

Snail: So we don't have long discussions on what it's spent on

−

Carl0s: Agreesw/ lief.

+

−

Alex: Missed last discussion, doesn't want to rehash, but what in particular abt him?

carlos: feels like it's another individual whos washing their money w/ a nonprofit. happens a lot in the bay. i cannot assure to you that peter does that, but don¿'t ahve time nor tinfo for that, but as individula wantys to defend himself w/ facts, what is really going on?

+

−

malac: heard it was a sort of $$ laundering tax dodge; this isn't how tax dodges work, hee doesn't pay any less tax

+

Carlos: Agrees with Leif.

−

leif: him, no but his foundations

+

−

chairtable found very much a tax shaleter, maybe pejeorative + legal, but it's true

+

Alex: Missed last discussion, doesn't want to rehash, but what in particular about Peter Thiel?

−

he's a wealthey libertarian. all lbillionaries have nonprofits + it's not because they're all really nice ppl. rul is they have to spent 5% of total vlalue + don't pay taxes on profit from investments so he can give away + invest in for-profit enterprisees

+

−

his wealth is in this foundation, no?

+

Carlos: Feels like it's another individual who's washing their money with a non-profit. Happens a lot in the Bay. I cannot assure to you that Peter does that, I don't have time nor info for that, but as an individual who wants to defend himself with the facts, and know what is really going on?

−

doesn't actually work that way. for instandce if i'm 501ce + you decide y0ou're going to invest in an, tere is intese shit you ahve to go thru w/ board. it's not his money, board controls it.

+

−

but there are multi-gemneraltional keeping-it-in-fam $$$, but this is 1st gen. no, he doesn't pay taxes, but it's not really his money anymore, even if he gets director's salary.

+

Malaclyps: Heard last meeting that it was a sort of money-laundering tax dodge; this isn't how tax dodges work, he doesn't pay any less tax.

−

what you say on multigen level what leif says has merit but in single gen doesn't work that way

+

−

mod: have we arrived at any new conclusions abt stance?

+

Leif: A charitable foundation is very much a tax shelter; that may be pejorative, it is legal, but it's true. He's a wealthy libertarian. All billionaries have nonprofits and it's not because they're all really nice people. The rule is they have to spend 5% of total value and don't pay taxes on profit from investments so he can give away and invest in for-profit enterprises.

malac: i do to.. iv'e been wavering on this too, and i think the thing that conveinced me is to push this more was that we get a fair bit of our money that we use on a regular basis from cheques of this size, maybe not quite, but 1 months aog we got one fro 1000 bux from silicon valley charity, so it's my feelthing that his money, aside from this contract that we have to sign is pretty much part of the ebb and flow of money that we get, and how we get moneys is to get donations like this. agrees we need to maintina tindependence, but our independence edependads on sporadic charity of individuals like this + doesn't really change how we work.

+

Eric: It doesn't actually work that way. For instance if I'm a 501(c)3 and you decide you're going to invest in a non-profit, there is intense shit you have to go through with the board. No, he doesn't pay taxes, but it's not really his money anymore, the board controls it, even if he gets a director's salary.<br> What Leif says, on multigenerational level, has merit but in single generation doesn't work that way.

−

alex: reason for previous statement: not a great outcome if wevery1 feels like this is dirty money + theese are bad people. all these supersci save-the-workd type of projects .. doesnt' thingk they're evil + thikns if a buncyh of ppl from 20 u 20 show up, it's s good source of new awesome hackers, and there's a bunch of peopel from paluntree r who show up to use nb.

+

−

ñeif: s welcome as anyone else to use nb, + they re wlcome to be members but that's not related to thte granty.

+

Moderator: Have we arrived at any new conclusions about our stance?

−

other than being its reason for existing.

+

−

alac. like to try to rejoin the consesnsus, rewored to say we'¿re going to use $$$ exclusifvely for paying rent

Malaclyps: I do, too... I've been wavering on this too, and I think the thing that convinced me is to push this more was that we get a fair bit of our money that we use on a regular basis from checks of this size - maybe not quite, but one month ago we got one for $5,000 from a Silicon Valley charity, so it's my feeling that this money, aside from this contract that we have to sign, is pretty much part of the ebb and flow of money that we get, and how we get money is to get donations like this. Agrees we need to maintain independence, but our independence depends on the sporadic charity of individuals like this and doesn't really change how we work.

malac: because if there were 4 stand asides we should talk abt it some more. not as a threat, but i'm only doing it this week because there was a strong consensus that he should do it one more wk but he's not going to bring this up again. and they're totally fie either way.

+

Alex: It's not a great outcome if everyone feels like this is dirty money and these are bad people. There are all these super-science save-the-world type of projects and I don't think they're evil. I think if a bunch of people from 20 Under 20 show up, it's a good source of new awesome hackers, and there's a bunch of people from Palantir who already show up to use Noisebridge.

−

anyone else awnt to voice?

+

−

no one want ts of have 10 mmeeeting to talking abt what to do with 10000$.

+

Leif: They're as welcome as anyone else to use Noisebridge, and they're welcome to be members but that's not related to the grant.

−

we have agone to 4 with this

+

+

Malaclyps: Would like to try to retry the consensus, reworded to say we're going to use money exclusively for paying rent (later operating expenses)

+

+

Leif: Thinks we should write down how many people are standing aside: at least 2 + maybe more... There were 4 two weeks ago, and Danny withdrew it.

+

+

Malaclyps: Because if there were 4 stand asides we should talk about it some more. Not saying this as a threat, but he's only doing it this week because there was a strong consensus that he should do it one more week, but he's not going to bring this up again. And the foundation is totally fine either way.

Wording of the consensus: It is consensus of Noisebridge that the grant be accepted, and the money be used exclusively for paying operating expenses.

Wording of the consensus: It is consensus of Noisebridge that the grant be accepted, and the money be used exclusively for paying operating expenses.

+

+

----

+

+

Standing aside: Leif, Carlos, Snail.

+

=== Proposals for next week ===

=== Proposals for next week ===

''(Add any new items for consensus to the [[Current Consensus Items]] page.)''

''(Add any new items for consensus to the [[Current Consensus Items]] page.)''

God forbid

God forbid

+

Does anyone think a fundraiser with a goal? Alex's roommates think a big giant cartoon thermometer is the way to go

Does anyone think a fundraiser with a goal? Alex's roommates think a big giant cartoon thermometer is the way to go

−

mo

+

== Discussion Items ==

== Discussion Items ==

If an item of discussion drags on too long, further discussion may be postponed until after the meeting ends.

If an item of discussion drags on too long, further discussion may be postponed until after the meeting ends.

During discussion, it is not necessary to write down exact what each person says. Record the topics of discussion, and any items of consensus or controversy here. Detailed descriptions of the conversation should go on the discuss page for this meeting.

During discussion, it is not necessary to write down exact what each person says. Record the topics of discussion, and any items of consensus or controversy here. Detailed descriptions of the conversation should go on the discuss page for this meeting.

+

Praveen proposed that Noisebridge fiscally sponsor the new Oakland hackerspace's fundraising activities. We deferred until Kelly the Treasurer had a chance to chip in with her opinion.

Praveen proposed that Noisebridge fiscally sponsor the new Oakland hackerspace's fundraising activities. We deferred until Kelly the Treasurer had a chance to chip in with her opinion.

+

== End of Meeting ==

== End of Meeting ==

−

* [[PGP|PGP Key Signing]] could happen now, check the [[PGP|list]] to see who wants in on the action.

+

* [[PGP|PGP Key Signing]] could happen now, check the [[PGP|list]] to enable the giant web of trust built on lies.

−

* Return the [[membership binder]] to it's rightful location.

+

* Return the [[membership binder]] to its rightful location.

* Clean and tidy the meeting notes, then save them to the wiki.

* Clean and tidy the meeting notes, then save them to the wiki.

* Send a summary of the meeting notes to the discussion list.

* Send a summary of the meeting notes to the discussion list.

−

* Enjoy the company of your fellow hacker o* Discuss any items for which there was not time during the meeting.

Agenda

Introduction and Names

Noisebridge is a 501c3 nonprofit that provides a space for creation, collaboration, and learning about technology and creative projects. Noisebridge provides space, power tools, and infrastructure to help the public learn new skills and create cool things. Noisebridge continues to exist through and depends entirely on membership fees and donations. Our code of conduct is 'Be excellent to each other'."

Short Announcements

Toorcamp! Toorcamp! Toorcamp! We are still collecting people for Toorcamp. There is a bus going to Toorcamp! It's a hacker thing in the woods.
Some discussion ensues about the Magic Seatless Occubus that is going to Toorcamp. There will be ham radio.

New or Stale Events

Invite a knowledgeable volunteer to describemembership, and the application process.

Being a member of Noisebridge is not like being a member of a gym or your local chess club. Anyone can come to Noisebridge to hack and learn: you don't need to be a member for that. At Noisebridge, membership is something different: it means taking responsibility and committing to help to maintain, improve, and govern Noisebridge. As a member of Noisebridge, you don't just come here to hack and learn, you actively work to improve what you see around you, help to deal with problems, and make this community better than it is today.

If you want to show your commitment to Noisebridge and the community here without becoming a capital-M-Member, consider being a Noisebridge associate. Associates pay their dues to the treasurer just like members, use the space just like members, and are valued participants in the community just like members. The difference is that associate membership doesn't involve consensus: there's no need to go through consensus to become an associate, but associates don't get to block consensus either.

Proposals from last week

Malaclyps: I would be worried if we spent 10K on party + sent someone to Singapore (like last time), I would feel guilty because I work w/ foundation. So this 10 grand will go to our prudent reserve. So I wouldn't want to spend it on specific projects, just two months' rent. The other objection that had been cited was that the Thiel foundation connected to Peter Thiel, and Peter Thiel connected to Palantir, which datamines for the state.

Leif: Not the problem that Palantir datamines for the state, but that it was mentioned in the Bank of America-connected attack on journalists reporting on Wikileaks. He is also not a fan of the source of Thiel's wealth: PayPal + Facebook. He agreed long ago at last meetings to stand aside but thinks we really, really shouldn't do this. It's not as no-strings-attached as it's being made to sound. I understand we can pay rent, but if they wanted to sue, which he doesn't think they do, they could. It's important to understand that we are entering into a contract that says this $10,000 is only for operating expenses and we can give them a receipt, but that doesn't make me feel any better about this.

Ben: Doesn't see a problem. That's what they want us to spend it on.

Leif: But we're ALREADY paying our rent.

Malaclyps: I've worked w/ Thiel fund a lot in past couple of years. I'm not sure he can speak to all the connections, but I can really say they would be totally happy spending this on rent, I'm totally happy being the person saying we spent it on rent, I have a continuing relationship with them so I would lose a lot more than just getting sued as a board member, so willing to put a lot more than that on the line for this, including my current job.

Alex: Have had dealings with "PayPal mafia." At Hackmeet a while ago, a friend of his "hazed" him for wearing a T-shirt which has a Palantir logo on it. Feels bad being associated with Palantir on the face of it, but the shirt is for an organization called Hack the Future and a bunch of people who work at Palantir help with that, are just hackers like us who happen to work for a shady company. Met the CEO of Palantir and asked him right out, "How do you explain your own actions?" said they wanted to make this software to make sure no one would abuse software like it But there's also the thing this is about, which is the 20 Under 20... speaking tomorrow at Hackademic camp. unschooling folks...was originally asked by Danielle about coming to Noisebridge. Hasn't seen contract till tonight but only has obligation of one 501(c)3 to another. The Thiel fellowship is just a bunch of smart kids under 20, and we should welcome them. I hope when someone says, "I heard about this from the Thiel fellowship," that we don't attack those newcomers. There's the utopian positive arm of Thiel's work, and then there's the evil capitalist arm, but the utopians are awesome.

Lizzard: That touches on the other thing brought up, you mention your T-shirt as an example; people felt that the fact that you're wearing it "excuses them" because they are using Alex' social capital to deflect from their negative image.

Malaclyps: Just to be explicit, Thiel Foundation is different from Palantir. And I also don't think TF is particularly interested in riding off Noisebridge's social capital. They have plenty from other eccentric hacker projects.

Alex: When there's a direct "this is going into bed with this group," but here it's enough places removed it shouldn't be an issue.
Used to black-marker all Microsoft logos off his shirts but hasn't gotten around to it with Hack the Future tees.

Malaclyps: Proposes putting up for consensus.

Carlos: Asks what Leif would do if it passed consensus.

Leif: Would not block, but would stop paying Noisebridge dues for 1 year. Will probably spend his personal surplus on nb projects

Moderator: Proposals for next week...

Malaclyps: No, no, no! Consensus! You need to do the magic words.

Stand aside? Block?

As such, it is the consensus of Noisebridge that we are taking this money.

Malaclyps: Yuck! Does everyone *really* feel okay with this?

Snail: Asks whether consensus has do-overs.

Malaclyps: Is that consensus? I don't think it is. Is anybody enthusiastic about taking this money?

Alex: Missed last discussion, doesn't want to rehash, but what in particular about Peter Thiel?

Carlos: Feels like it's another individual who's washing their money with a non-profit. Happens a lot in the Bay. I cannot assure to you that Peter does that, I don't have time nor info for that, but as an individual who wants to defend himself with the facts, and know what is really going on?

Malaclyps: Heard last meeting that it was a sort of money-laundering tax dodge; this isn't how tax dodges work, he doesn't pay any less tax.

Leif: A charitable foundation is very much a tax shelter; that may be pejorative, it is legal, but it's true. He's a wealthy libertarian. All billionaries have nonprofits and it's not because they're all really nice people. The rule is they have to spend 5% of total value and don't pay taxes on profit from investments so he can give away and invest in for-profit enterprises.

Eric: It doesn't actually work that way. For instance if I'm a 501(c)3 and you decide you're going to invest in a non-profit, there is intense shit you have to go through with the board. No, he doesn't pay taxes, but it's not really his money anymore, the board controls it, even if he gets a director's salary. What Leif says, on multigenerational level, has merit but in single generation doesn't work that way.

Malaclyps: I do, too... I've been wavering on this too, and I think the thing that convinced me is to push this more was that we get a fair bit of our money that we use on a regular basis from checks of this size - maybe not quite, but one month ago we got one for $5,000 from a Silicon Valley charity, so it's my feeling that this money, aside from this contract that we have to sign, is pretty much part of the ebb and flow of money that we get, and how we get money is to get donations like this. Agrees we need to maintain independence, but our independence depends on the sporadic charity of individuals like this and doesn't really change how we work.

Alex: It's not a great outcome if everyone feels like this is dirty money and these are bad people. There are all these super-science save-the-world type of projects and I don't think they're evil. I think if a bunch of people from 20 Under 20 show up, it's a good source of new awesome hackers, and there's a bunch of people from Palantir who already show up to use Noisebridge.

Leif: They're as welcome as anyone else to use Noisebridge, and they're welcome to be members but that's not related to the grant.

Malaclyps: Would like to try to retry the consensus, reworded to say we're going to use money exclusively for paying rent (later operating expenses)

Leif: Thinks we should write down how many people are standing aside: at least 2 + maybe more... There were 4 two weeks ago, and Danny withdrew it.

Malaclyps: Because if there were 4 stand asides we should talk about it some more. Not saying this as a threat, but he's only doing it this week because there was a strong consensus that he should do it one more week, but he's not going to bring this up again. And the foundation is totally fine either way.

Proposals for next week

Does anyone think a fundraiser with a goal? Alex's roommates think a big giant cartoon thermometer is the way to go

Discussion Items

If an item of discussion drags on too long, further discussion may be postponed until after the meeting ends.
During discussion, it is not necessary to write down exact what each person says. Record the topics of discussion, and any items of consensus or controversy here. Detailed descriptions of the conversation should go on the discuss page for this meeting.

Praveen proposed that Noisebridge fiscally sponsor the new Oakland hackerspace's fundraising activities. We deferred until Kelly the Treasurer had a chance to chip in with her opinion.

End of Meeting

PGP Key Signing could happen now, check the list to enable the giant web of trust built on lies.