Topics - Dunkelheit

The existence of the gods and afterlife seems to make the Dunyain philosophy a fools errand (just ask Koringhus). But what if the Dunyain lived on Earth instead of Earwa? Is seeking to free yourself from the darkness that comes before a worthy goal?

Certainly living in ignorance and being at the mercy of unknown forces is not something to be desired. But I'm of the opinion that the Dunyain themselves are especially free either. From the very beginning we see Kellhus making people follow him by explaining and free people from the darkness that makes them act the way they do, in a way making them more like the Dunyain. But that just makes them more dependent on him, more enslaved. Likewise Kellhus himself is, or at least claims to be, completely controlled by his mission. This makes it seem like the Dunyain rather than being the freest people, are actually the most enslaved.

As far as I understand the Dunyains philosophy is basically buddhism plus an extreme emphasis on logic and reason. They seek to free themselves the darkness that comes before thought and action, live purely according to the logos and become self-moving souls.

But you can't just logic yourself into something. Should you help or hurt people, destroy the world or save it? You can't answer this or anything really with pure logic. Ultimately it depends on what preferences you have, what kind of desires. From the very beginning we see Kellhus making people follow him by explaining and free people from the darkness that makes them act the way they do, in a way making them more like the Dunyain. But that just makes them more dependent on him, more enslaved. Likewise Kellhus himself is, or at least claims to be, completely controlled by his mission. This makes it seem like the Dunyain rather than being the freest people, are actually the most enslaved. They completely controlled by their mission to the point that they kill themselves over having bad dreams.

I think the Unholy Consult actually explores this problem pretty well. Serwa calls Kelmomas a machine because everything he does is to make his mother love him. He argues that she is as much a slave as him, she just chooses to follow Kellhus instead. She argues that it's better to be a slave to the logos. This seems like the logic that the Inchoroi follows too. If we are all machines it makes sense to follow the greatest machine. For the inchoroi that is the Ark, for Serwa it's Kellhus.

Kellhus seems to want to make himself the most powerful machine possible? Having conquered the three sees and the consult he wants to wage war on the outside making himself more powerful than the god of gods.

Cnair on the other hand goes a different route, and embraces passion and irrationality. At one point Kellhus describes him as the only worldborn man who is awake, and he uses his knowledge of the darkness that comes before to make himself impossible to reason with. Becoming an inverse Dunyain of sorts. Is this an alternate path to becoming the self-moving soul? Or perhaps the Dunyain way is even a dead end and this is the way. Like Kellhus he is able to channel the devil, even without magic.

Kayűtas: I have to mostly agree with Jackehehe here...I thought he was a boring character for the first three books of this series. Nothing distinctive about him (unlike his siblings), he was basically a more human Kellhus, "Kellhus Lite", if you will. While I agree he did have a role as a Kellhus stand-in to Sorweel and later Proyas, and was the tiniest bit more interesting to me by the end, I ultimately came away from the series with (almost) the same impression I had at the beginning. I guess that can be more of a subjective thing, though, as some people out there might like him as a character?

(From a maxed out thread)

I actually found him to be the most terrifying character in the books, and he adds a lot to the Proyas/Great Ordeals storyline. What makes that storyline interesting is how alone Proyas are and the enormous struggle of leading an army that also slowly goes insane while struggling to remain sane himself. I thought it was a huge turning point Kayűtas just murdered one of the lords, seemingly surprising even himself. His reaction also seemed to show that it wasn't a calculated decision and he that had gone crazy just like everybody else, leaving Proyas as the only semi-sane person in the Great Ordeal. Its a huge difference between having this superhuman on your team and having him as another lunatic you need to control, which seems like an impossible task given what Dunyain are capable of. As the story progresses he becomes this devil on Proyas shoulder, using his intellect to justify his insanity and actually making himself and others believe they doing the right thing. I think this is a far more horrifying portrayal of what an insane Dunyain could be than Inrilatas. Someone who not just heaps damnation upon himself but corrupts everyone with his superhuman powers of persuasion.