Roseanne Barr and transgender people

I know I’m getting old. I used to watch the television show Roseanne when it was in the first run, and thought it was pretty funny. I thought it was pretty progressive, often having lesbian characters sprinkled through storylines. And, with Roseanne Barr being an executive producer on the show I thought she must have some awesomely progressive views on the LGBT community.

“Roseanne, a show that celebrated the ups and downs of a working-class American family, was one of the most successful series of the late ’80s and early ’90s. Helmed by stand-up comedian and self-proclaimed ‘Domestic Goddess’ Roseanne Barr,” states the TVLand synopsis for the show.

It’s been a few years since 1997. Her show is in syndication, and Barr is no longer the star she once was – today few follow her career closely. That is the nature of celebrity: it often fades over time.

Well, reality has snuck into the belief that she’s an LGBT progressive. Apparently she’s become quite transphobic in her language of late, and is using what remains of her celebrity status to rail against transgender people.

In 2012 when she was running for president of the United States she began Tweeting about trans people. Barr derided Green Party candidate Jill Stein about not accepting an invitation to debate her, and in her Twitter feed she wrote of Stein’s positions on issues that “Jill is also in favor of letting men into spaces where young girls get changed.” This is in reference to the “bathroom bill” meme used by many social conservatives and trans-exclusionary radical feminists to argue against housing, employment and public accommodations antidiscrimination protections based on gender identity.

In her Twitter feed in that same conversation, she continued and made comments such as these:

• Transgender folks should have their own safe bathrooms – they should not be FORCED into bathrooms with young girls who hate them there.

• Women do not want your penises forced in their faces or in our private bathrooms. Respect that FACT.

She’s continued her lashing out against trans women. In a January Tweet, Martha Plimpton stated, “If you’re a feminist & don’t support trans equality, you’re not a “terf,” you’re a bigot. & you’re certainly not a feminist. End of story.” Roseanne Barr replied, “Calling lesbian separatists who want no dicks around them-bigots now?? #rightwingbullshit”.

In a Tweet from March 24, Barr stated, “Another sign of the apocalypse: GAY & LESBIAN orgs support calling Lesbians bigots for not liking DICK.” In a Tweet from March 28, Barr has identified her new stand-up show’s theme: “My new stand up show is dedicated to dicktardian idiocy. #ychromo”

These are just a few of her many comments on trans people these days. She is getting harsher and harsher in tone and language regarding trans people – mostly trans women. Just this week she inserted herself into a Twitter discussion about trans women, lesbians and rape, and told the Transgender Law Center’s Cecilia Chung to “f*** off” – Chung was using respectful language and hadn’t even engaged Barr. It was bizarre to see.

So, how much do we care about what a celebrity that is far from her peak popularity says about trans women? Enough to band together and ask that the old Roseanne show be taken off TVLand? Enough to protest her shows when they come to our hometowns?

I’m not sure. What I am sure of is that I’m sad that a star of a show that I enjoyed in the ‘80s and ‘90s engages in hate speech against my community now. I’d say I wouldn’t watch her syndicated show anymore or pay to see a stand-up performance of hers, but in reality I wouldn’t be doing either of those kinds of things anyway.

125 Comments for “Roseanne Barr and transgender people”

I am sure of one thing Autumn, you have no respect for freedom of speech unless it agrees with your authoritarian, pseudo-liberal politics. I see that you chose not to post links to the twitter feeds in question, I guess the rather embarrassing comments made by members of your TG circle would have came to light. I asw how a recently posted twitter feed may end getting the attention of the FBI because of comments made by TG extremists.

It’s people like you who give a social movement that should be setting an example of high standards of social conduct in order to shed a positive light on the transgender fad or social movement a bad and disrespectful name for your blatant attempts at controlling free speech by vilifying anybody who doesn’t agree with the world according to TG Dogma.

In stark contrast legitimate transsexuals have over the decades, and with few exceptions made their place in the mainstream by being respectful of the views of others, allowing for their right to speak freely and only backing legislation that paved the way for entry into society on society’s terms.

Another excellent response. What seems lost on the transgender extremist is the simple fact that what they so derisively dismiss as “the bathroom meme” works because, well, it is sadly true. They refuse to see beyond their obsession with access to the ladies room. They gloss over incidents that do happen, repeating the lie that “it never happens,” and even going to such absurd lengths as to argue that “Well, there are female predators as well…”

What basically destroys their position is their complete lack of concern for the feelings of women, even though they claim to be “women.” When I began transition, and faced the issue, one of my primary concerns was not causing discomfort for anyone else. I was very cautious at first, and it was only after I realized that I was able to go and not cause a riot, that I felt it was fully appropriate for me to be there. I should add, I began my transition in the Deep South, not California. So, it was not a matter of people “having” to accept me. I had no choice about assimilating, not that it would have mattered. I am a woman, not a “trans woman.” I didn’t transition to be “transgender,’ but because I am a woman. I’m not “out, loud. and proud” like some, and I really don’t appreciate that some can’t respect that. I’m sorry, but I don’t care how much you claim to be a woman, if you are clearly a man, I don’t want you in the women’s room either.

Always nice to read sane voices among the crazy ones that seems to go all-in to destroy not only for women-born-women but for those like yourself too, that has done the transition too and just want to live a good life with the rest of society.
I’ve seen quite often nowadays how the transgender mob (which is almost entirely male) attacks other transwomen that are just doing their best to actually learn to live like women with all that it means, that want to build bridges not walls.

It isn’t even so much about building bridges, but more about curing a now scientifically verified birth defect and living a normal life. What usually happens when a blind or deaf woman or man gets that missing sense back, they move on after a period of adjustment, and live a normal life. You don’t see clinging to their former handicap do you? They get on with their life.

Well if people can be born transgender so to say; then why not work to living a normal life, why ghettoize your life and play the victim every chance you get?

The Transgenders make the strongest argument for their condition being a life style choice simply by their actions.

What is sad and will continue to aid in their self-marginalization is the attachment of the transgender community to this pseudo-liberal movement. The sad truth is, these people are fighting the very meaning of the First Amendment and they are fighting against a strong majority who have the Constitution on their side. A self fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one.

*sighs* if you think that the stigma attached to transness ends after transition is complete then you’re delusional. People who recfognise you out you, I’ve hbad police at demos deliberately do so. Employment discrimination is still there. OF COURSE WE STICK TOGETHER. You survive tokgether and look out for each other, youy look out for those who are stikll going through what you survived, that’s what any decent human being does. We aren’t clinging on for the sake of it, we’re there so the next poor kid still has support.

Well I was never discriminated against or suffered harassment until I went to work for a company in the GLBT ghetto. Gay men are by far the worst, much worse than their straight counterparts with drag performers being worst of the whole lot. That is just my experience and I have as is only human drawn some generalizations based on my experience so if anybody is going to call me a bigot go right ahead, I could care less.

Also based on my experince if someone thinks they know they usually have enough class to keep their opinion to themselves, only a few haven’t and they when presented with the facts like my birth certificate couldn’t say anything unless they wanted to look like a fool. Granted this was in the good old days before the gay and lesbian communities exploited transsexualism and invited cross dressers and the transgender to colonize our label and steal our narrative for their own.
Here in California since the early 70s we have enjoyed all the status of any other woman including being granted marriage licenses which are honored out of state, as long as it was accompanied by a proper berth certificate. Now things are, sad to say a lot different and I feel sorry for anybody transitioning now.

problem is bigotry goes beyond race,it goes beyound poverty,it includes denial of access to proper medical care for dealing with a debilitating disorder of sex. truth is you assholes have drawn a line at the miost basic of human needs,that same line is also covered in your own shit making it the most grotesque form of bigotry ive ever seen.”your not a woman because your blackj”,ring a bell?sad part is your just fueling ignorant fires that will eventually burn out in an attempt to hurt the most vulnerable of all. evil has a name,it it resembles yours.

Yeah, we’ve had the conditional freedom to marry for 40 years. And we’ve had our marriages challenged as “same sex” at every relevant turn. Funny how the broader LGBT is just now making progress on issues like SSI survivor benefits, gender no-match letters, pension payouts, employment and housing non-discrimination laws and legit bathroom use that isn’t entirely dependent on how lucky we are with passability.

I’ve never had a passing problem, but if society’s terms say “Use the men’s room and risk being assaulted/murdered; or use the women’s room and risk awkward stares” then it doesn’t take a genius to figure out where society is telling a non-passing woman to go.

Funny how those challenges became common after the transgender extremists became so loud and active. Prior to that, the only major case that went against a transsexual were in England. Marriages were generally recognized in the United States.

… anti-American? That’s not an insult at all, lol. Most of the world is anti-American… because America is a Capitalistic bastion of inequality where we pay people to blow up or gun down children/civilians. And then when our soldiers come back with mental health issues, the red half of our govt. says we can’t afford to care for them… the red half being the same war-mongers who send them off in the first place.

Why don’t you point out that Chung’s response to someone claiming they wanted to murder lesbians that “violence was not helpful.” When being asked to call out the violence directed at females from the trans woman community. Point this stuff out and stop spinning things to fit your narrative. Thanks to Roseanne for standing up to this.

No Kidding!
I am with Rosanne on this, I may not agree with some of her statements but she has a right to say how she feels. Leave it to Autumn to only present half the story and turn a blind eye toward the “crap throwing” on the part of the TG community.

The tissues are homologous, the morphology is the same, the stratified squamous epithelium releases the same glycogen levels, dependent on the same hormones, providing nourishment to the same benign invasive lactobacillus, which metabolize glycogen into lactic acid, creating an environment friendly to benign acidophiles, which together with lactobacillus form a biofilm density serving the same defensive purposes, protecting against the same kinds of malign vaginal infection.

Seriously… People should read books. Learning and understanding should be a cosmic prerequisite to making assertions on subject matter.

Anne you are wrong the definition to “female” does not describe animals or humans with a vagina. However some Trans*Women do have vagina’s and if they go out of the country with enough money they can even go an get a uterus transplant and have stem cell eggs used to give birth. Most trans*people don’t have the money considering that uterus transplants are still new procedures and the FDA has yet to give the approval making it cost over 60 grand just for a 50% chance of success rate. But Vagina’s are FDA approved and can be done for 20 grand here in the States. Your posts however Anne don’t make sound as much of a bigot as just illiterate. You can say what you want just Barr can also. But so can I and rather than speak from my ass I rather use facts. The gay population and the trans population are two different things for one is a sexual thing and the trans is an identity thing. Personally if you was to see me and talk to me in the bathroom, you would not know that I am trans if I did not make you aware. However I am not going to continue ranting about how far your moral compass is up your ass. The point I am making is the definition of female states in the bullet #2 of the definition female “characteristics of either a girl or woman.” I suspect you to believe me and do the research yourself so here I even did that part for you.

Yep. The L matters enough for me to support Lesbian marriage and non-discrimination policies for them in credit, housing, employment, etc. It doesn’t matter enough for my bottom areas to ever be up for discussion…

The exception is maybe if I was getting a professional piercing down there and the shop worker happened to be a lesbian.

Transphobia–the hate the bigotry. And then there are rational fears.
Richard, “Sherry” Masbruch. rape and torture. He tied two women up and sadistically tortured them with an electrical wire before raping them. (In a womens prison)

Raven Navajo was sentenced to 10 years to life in prison last month after being found guilty of second-degree murder in the killing of Brenda Schmalfeldt, a woman Navajo had met at a bar in January 2007.

David Dwayne Cassady is serving a life sentence for kidnapping and sodomy. He currently is suing the Georgia prison system for the prison’s deliberate indifference in subjecting him to second-hand smoke. Among his many diagnoses is gender identity disorder.

Christopher also a transgender woman named Jessica was given full acess to a womans homeless shelter — and recived an indefinite jail sentence. attacked four vulnerable females between the ages of five and 53 in Montreal and Toronto over the past 12 years.
“He has demonstrated, from the age of 12 until the present, an inability to control his sexual impulses,” McMahon said.
Hambrook served four years in prison in Quebec for sexually abusing a five-year-old girl and while on bail for that crime, assaulted a 27-year-old intellectually challenged woman.
The prosecution asserted Hambrook, a former stripper and escort, simply cannot control his deviant sexual urges and that locking him up indefinitely is the best way to protect the public. Serial Rapist of children and disabled women

Curtis Gene Copeland is a high risk child sex offender who exposed himself to a girl. He now claims he is transgender and is suing the Texas prison system for its failure to provide him with treatment for gender dysphoria.

Douglas (Donna) Perry, 61, is in federal prison for a firearms offense and her sentence is almost up. Authorities charged Perry with three counts of 1st Degree Murder for the 1990 murders of Yolanda Sapp, 26, Nikkie Lowe, 34, and Katherine Brisbois, 34. Serial Killer of women

Teresa Brugliera, Offender ID W47605, is serving a life sentence in a Massachusetts prison. He has court-ordered treatment for his gender identity disorder.
Charles Norwood, a prisoner at the Waupun Correctional Institution, filed a lawsuit alleging that Wisconsin Department of Corrections employees violate his Eighth and Fourteenth Amendment rights by failing to treat him for Gender Identity Disorder. Norwood identifies as a transsexual female and believes that he suffers from Gender Identity Disorder. Battery

A Michigan prison inmate with gender identity disorder can sue a doctor and a guard accused of ignoring problems with his breasts. Vonlee Titlow says a corrections officer snickered and failed to seek medical care when he complained about pain in his breasts in 2006. Titlow is male but considers himself a female and received silicone injections to increase his breast size before entering prison in 2002. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit will allow Titlow’ lawsuit to proceed. The 45-year-old Titlow is in prison for second-degree murder in Oakland County.

Andrew Reid pleaded guilty to first-degree murder after he beat a man to death with a baseball bat and made a woman who accompanied him look at the dead man. In August, he filed a civil rights lawsuit against state prison officials alleging deliberate indifference to “his serious medical need” related to Gender Identity Disorder (GID). In Response, prison officials provide a copy of the ADC GID policy, Administrative Directive (AD) 09-20, together with the record of Reid’s meeting with the GID Committee. The Committee met with Reid on February 22, 2013, and concluded that he did not meet the clinical criteria of a GID diagnosis. Prison officials also provide to the Court clinical encounter records from August 26, 2013, October 8, 2013, and October 30, 2013, which show that Reid is receiving psychiatric treatment and medications and reports no self-harm ideation. The court thus denied Reid’s motion for an injunction ordering the prison to give him hormone replacement therapy.

Thomas Lamb’s case came before the Kansas Parole Board. Lamb, a convicted rapist, murderer and kidnapper, had provided the Board with several letters vouching for his fitness for parole and his need for sexual reassignment treatment.

The State of California filed an amended petition to extend the commitment of William Karl Olsen under the Sexually Violent Predators Act after his commitment expired in October of 2008. The petition stated that on October 5, 2000, Olsen was committed as a sexually violent predator to the state Department of Mental Health for two years, and since that date he “has been consistently committed to a new term as a Sexually Violent Predator.” The People asserted that Olsen “continues to meet the criteria for commitment as a sexually violent predator in that he continues to have a current diagnosed mental disorder that makes him a danger to the health and safety of others in that it is likely that he will engage in sexually violent criminal behavior in the future.” Serial rape murder

Louis Massei, 52, was convicted of the kidnapping, rape and sodomy of a 16-year-old girl. He is suing the State of New York for being civilly committed as a sexually violent sex offender after he served his prison sentence.

A convicted sexual predator who claimed to be transgender and preyed on women at two Toronto shelters could be declared a dangerous offender this month. Christopher Hambrook — who claimed to be a transgender woman named Jessica — has attacked four vulnerable females between the ages of five and 53 in Montreal and Toronto over the past 12 years.

A transsexual former soldier who stabbed an innocent schoolboy in a row at a caravan park has been jailed for seven years. Melissa Cae was wearing a blonde wig when he repeatedly stabbed the 16-year-old, who was on holiday with his parents.

Theodore “Francine” Lorigo, a registered sex offender and transgender woman, violated the terms of his sex offender status by trespassing on school property,

Although the exact motive remains unknown, Sacramento police say a shooting on a lightrail train does not appear to be motivated by any kind of hate or bias. Police arrested Lynnsey Evakarla Braun, 32, on suspicion of murder in connection with the death of a man in his 50s. Braun had earlier been identified as a woman. However, Braun’s booking sheet at the Sacramento County Jail identifies him as a man. A source who was not authorized to speak publicly said Braun is transgender and identifies as a woman.
Christopher King aka Kryzie King aka Janaie Jones is a transgender woman who allegedly killed a child. He also has a prior conviction for rape. Torture and murder of 4 year old
Joseph Patrick Bueche allegedly hit a convenience store clerk over the head with a bottle after she forgot to call him “she.”

Melissa Young is a transgender woman charged with killing Allan Williamson in Glenure Loan, Edinburgh on Christmas Day. Williamson was imprisoned for six years and put on the sex offenders register for trying to rape a woman in Uphall, West Lothian.
Mr. Lamb is currently incarcerated and wants sex reassignment surgery so he can “be a woman.”

A pre-op transsexual locked up in a women’s jail for a savage torture-killing has been moved to a different prison after claims he was having sex with female inmates.
Murderer Paris Green, 22, who was previously known as Peter Laing,

Transvestite Says in Letter That He ‘Hurt’ Elderly Ventura Man – Los Angeles Times.
A man lost his argument that his diagnosis of gender identity disorder should have led to a reduced sentence for sexually assaulting children.
Lee Gustafson entered no contest pleas to one count of repeated sexual assault of a child and one count of second-degree sexual assault of another child.

Paula (Paul) Witherspoon, serial child rapists, violated parole and LAMBDA attorney argues he need to be in the ladies room because it is consitant with his inner feeling and indenity as “women”

Jeffrey Norsworthy began serving a life sentence within the CDCR in 1987. In 1998 or 1999, a correctional counselor transferred plaintiff to the Department of Mental Health within the California Medical Facility for a Gender Dysphoria Evaluation.

In late 1992, Wolfgang Schmidt was sentenced to 15 years in prison, they sent him to the Forensic Hospital in Brandenburg.
Schmidt asked the court that if he would be addressed in the future as a woman and asked that his name would be changed.
In 2001, the courts granted Schmidt’s wishes and his name was changed to “Beate”.
Beate now is trying to push forward to getting a sex change but he/she is given hormones but not everyone respects Schmidt’s desire to be a woman. “The other’s are nasty to me. They say i could get a fat ass. That hurts. Then i have to cry, i cry alot now, but it helps me. I feel the more feminine inside” saids Schmidt, talking about the other inmates. Killed Five women aged between 34 and 66 years, and a child of three months

Death Toll Victims of Transgenderwomen is climbing everyday. Now who need needs safe spaces more. Ask how many women have been killed and raped–count them because every state rep is.There will be a tipping point and then anyone that supported putting women and children in real danger will not look quite so PC.

I suggest Autumn and the rest of the people who say “transwomen” don’t harm those of us who are female should have ether done their homework or should have been more honest up front. I think it really is the latter. This column by Sandeen is just one example of the deception transgenders are responsable for.

Should we start compiling a list of all the rape, molestation, and assault that cis women have been accused of? Because that’s out there too. All people are capable of and commit violent acts. This misgendering that occurs here is an act of violence in and of itself. Trans women are women. And unless you’re going to hold up stories of cis women who have been accused of violence- something that the feminist community rightfully rages against, rightfully points out how statistically small those accounts are, when men’s rights activists talk about them- then I think you might want to have a seat or a thousand here. Do you think that people in prison should suffer mental anguish and receive no medical treatment for legitimate conditions? Are you the personal physician caring for these people? If you’re not and aren’t privvy to their medical records how can you sit there and just accuse accuse accuse from the comfort of your armchair without seeing how hypocritical that is? If you call yourself a feminist, I call myself ashamed of you.

sort of amazed how the rapist Twitter engineer is not being mentioned…and being charged with spousal rape (three counts) means HE used HIS penis in the course of committing rape. So we have yet ANOTHER instance of male violence against females…

And yes, yet another stellar example of why no amendments to legal sex should occur until a complete SRS has been accomplished.

Ah, the fallacy of case misrepresenting class… Using a highly suspect case at that: being raped by a spouse in a home full of people who didn’t hear anything just as said spouse is about to come into an obscene sum of money?

It must be terrible knowing that the civil rights of civil citizens tend to prevail even as people like you fear-monger about minorities being legally allowed to use the bathroom… which is all the legal change really does… (besides prevent being outed and potentially harassed or discriminated against when showing ID to buy alcohol or tobacco, when entering a bar or casino, when accessing healthcare, when picking up prescriptions, when accessing government programs, when applying for college, when applying for a job, when flying or staying in a hotel room, when calling the police for help or being stopped for a traffic ticket, and when applying for a business/fishing/hunting license).

Yeah, that sounds cool. I know I’d rather out myself as a target for pervasive harassment and discrimination… I’d rather take that than have one more bigot like you worry about phantom menace baddies in the bathrooms… as if rapists have to get an “F” on their legal ID to be able to rape people.

Actually no. I can think of a lot of valid reasons why my legal ID is helpful to me. But I can’t think of any valid reasons why it would be harmful to you… Nor can I perceive how it would be make a difference to the overwhelming majority of rape victims, who are raped by someone they know inside of a private residence (as in the case you cite above).

So tell me: how does a typical case of rape relate to trans ID policy?

Idk, maybe you weren’t fear-mongering against a class of people over bathroom use. But the chances are slim, because we’ve seen this before: racists opposed to desegregation because black people in bathrooms, ableists opposed to ADA because mentally/physically disabled people in bathrooms, homophobes opposed to DADT because gay people in bathrooms.

Rape rates and subsequent HIV infection rates are far higher in trans women. And the number one cause of death for trans women? Pretty sure it’s murder. Cisgender men are a far greater danger to us than we are to you. And you are far more likely to sexually assault (nonconsentional grabbing/touching) or harass us than we are to sexually assault or harass you.

Early in transition, “you people” would randomly grab my budding breasts (assault, hurt quite a bit), ask to feel my crotch through my jeans (harassment)… if you even bothered to ask (back to assault), raising fists at me as I said “Hello,” and even one singular bigoted woman who:

— decided to dispute my bathroom use (harassment, to which I responded by just handing her my Female ID and explaining how it was then actually illegal for me to use the men’s room). She huffed and puffed before returning my ID and storming out, embarrassing all of her friends, who then apologized for her.

— later approached me angrily and loudly declared “I just wanted you to know that you’re the ugliest B—- I’ve ever seen!” I didn’t even respond, but that got her a lecture from my cisgender women friends about how life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are for everyone.

— and later still decided that mingling around, pointing and whispering about me (to incite more violence and harassment, I guess) was an appropriate course of action… when almost everyone already knew me, and considered me a friend. I asked around, gauging their responses, and some of them were getting angry and potentially violent towards what she was doing. So I warned her friends that she was going to say the wrong thing to the wrong person. They got her and had a long talk, I presume.

She later approached me again, to which two of my friends (guy and a girl) declared in unison “F— YOU!” I leaned over to hear what she had to say. She asked to talk, she apologized, she explained how she was angry at LGBT people in general because her sister just came out as a Lesbian. I listened, responded, supported and forgave her… She even gave me a hug when they all had to go.

These days I’ll be standing topless in the locker room at my gym, folding my workout clothes, get call from my boyfriend, answer it… And none of the other women even bat an eyelash. The point of all this: I think we can coexist regardless of how dead set you are on misrepresenting me/us in your Klan fallacy… which simply is not rational.

If you want to avoid being around a visibly trans person, then avoid them. But don’t be mean or hurtful. And this might be a stretch, but maybe try saying hello to a trans person someday. You might be pleasantly surprised to find that the world hasn’t imploded and that you can walk away without the boogeywomen getting you.

I don’t believe in blaming victims, but seriously, among so-called transwomen, how much of that behavior could be avoided with a bit of common sense? I worked in HIV prevention, and I know something about the behavior that people engage in, and the reasons. It is insane some of the stuff that transgender people, especially those born male, will engage in, and try to excuse. And cut the “Klan fallacy” crap. Parroting Williams will just make you look like a kook. If you want to be a “visibly trans person,” that is your right. But demanding that people fully accept you as a female is absurd.

As far as I can tell, Anne, you’re a cisgender person who has had little (if any) experience with trans people, and so fears the unknown. That’s disagreeable, but understandable. So I’m “on the same side” in the sense that not everyone can be an expert on sensitive minority issues.

I’m definitely not on Howard’s side, though. He has a history of harassment and violence dating back to the 1990’s: Christian bigot, wife-beater, and HBSer from around the year 2,000 onwards.

Having transitioned early in life has been an asset in my life. I couldn’t imagine doing this after being in the Navy for 20 years. I couldn’t imagine not transitioning any later than I did, I would have slit my wrists had I had to wait any longer.

One more thing, I wish you would stop the bickering with A Women Period. Also it is rude and childish to be attempting to out someone.
If you cannot perhaps you should seek the help of someone in the caring profession. (a therapist)
We are after all adults here, arn’t we?

Anne, the only thing that has just changes, is that I think you should have known better than to use a transphobic fallacy of misrepresentation for an entire class… For the sake of mutual honesty, I transitioned at age 20 shortly before applying for college, where I’m now majoring in biology for career in healthcare.

And sorry, Anne, but I don’t consider it rude at all to out someone for their long history of harassment and physical violence against women. Besides, I gave Howard plenty of indication that I wasn’t interested in talking to him, and only added a new piece of info for each of his pointless responses. Ergo, he effectively outed himself.

In short, you do what you damn well please, and to Hell with everyone else. You have no regard for others, just your own selfish desires. As I said, no valid points…just self-serving rants and logical fallacies. Well, thanks for playing…

I can’t imagine spending 20 years in the Navy, successfully serving as a male. I had enough trouble fitting in as a male as it was. But to be in a hyper-macho environment like the military, for 20 years, and to do so successfully? Impossible! To be honest, I rather strongly suspect it would have been a question of whether I fled, or they got rid of me.

Yes, when I raised an issue about this sort of thing in a support group some years ago, I was told it was a part of “our culture” and that it should not be bothered with. It is a lot more common than some realize, and the stuff injected ranges from vegetable oil to industrial silicone. Yes, people die, suffer brain damage, horrible infections, etc. But heaven forbid anyone try to stop it…waiting on the effects of hormones takes too long…

An appeal to normality? Really, Anne? Not only is normalcy invalid, but the claim would be factually wrong even if “normal” meant “cisgender.” Republicans, Libertarians, MRA’s MGTOW’s, red-pillers and red-pill women. These are all factions of “normal” people with strong contingents actually justifying rape.

Ah, another cisphobe…. I mean hey, why not? Thanks for showing what it is really all about. You don’t want to be a part of society. You want to thumb your nose at society. But…you don’t want to face the consequences of your actions. Typical.

Interesting comments. I would like some guidance here though from all the commenters. It comes up pretty often that the argument against transitioning trans women in the restroom is the number of criminals who say they are trans or manifest trans appearance. By that reasoning no man should use a men’s room if anyone under 18 is in there because of the number of men who victimize young boys. Actually, since the vast majority of violent crimes are committed by men then men should not be allowed in any restroom with anyone! And all of those horrible people listed in Woman XX’s post are sociopathic criminals with violent histories. They do not represent the average trans person any more than Jeffrey Dahmer can stand in for gay men. So should gay men be kept out of men’s rooms because of Jeffrey Dahmer? Whenever this gets discussed it becomes a slippery slope argument followed by personal attacks. Can anyone give a reason beyond instant revulsion at the idea of a hypothetical predatory man in a dress in the restroom?

I have no criminal record. I am blessed to blend in pretty well. I am inoffensive in every way and am kind, clean, pleasant and polite. I was born a guy and still have a vestigial something that is probably more offensive to me than it is to you. So does that mean that I should not go pee when I am anywhere that does not give me the opportunity to self segregate in a family restroom? The vast majority of places I go do not have any choice beyond the limiting binary of Men and Women. All I will ever do is slip in a stall, do what I came to do, wash my hands and leave.

And you seem to miss certain points. Okay, IF you are being honest, and you really are able to blend in, you live as a woman (not as a “transwoman”…making sure everyone knows your history) and you are actively working to have that vestigial something you claim is offensive to you removed (and not making excuses about how why you are not going to have it removed), then your presence in the women’s room should not be an issue. The problem is, you seem to downplay the revulsion that women do feel at the presence of a man in a dress in the restroom. Do you now understand that? Do you not understand that women really do feel such revulsion, that they have a right to feel such revulsion, and they have a right to expect that their privacy and feelings will be respected?

If not, then all the rest you have to say seems to be a bit questionable… To be clear, the issues revolve around men in the restroom. I don’t see a problem with someone who has fully changed their sex, is in the process of changing their sex, and who is making at the very least, a good faith effort to blend in. The issue is men, who are clearly men, who cling to being men, who demand what they see as their privilege to invade women’s spaces, regardless of how it makes women feel.

I do not downplay the revulsion or fear that women feel. And I understand a right to that revulsion. And I also understand that many things that used to elicit those same limbic center, instinctual responses no longer serve our culture. I can’t recall the last time I heard anyone comment on a black or Hispanic person in a restroom or restaurant. As a child I did! I am not diminishing it, I am trying to tease it apart and get beyond the horror and revulsion that you and others feel. So, to earn that potty pass do I need to have my surgeon’s letter in my pocket at all times? I know many women who do. They have carried them for years to show legitimacy, to show they have earned the right. If so then, from what I hear you saying, I will have earned my right? Or can I go to the restroom with confidence once I have a date scheduled and have my money in hand?

Now, I don’t want to muddy the issue, but I have natal woman friends who get hassled in the ladies room often. And there is a very butch women (born woman) from my area that got beaten up in a gas station parking lot in Nevada because she shared the bathroom with a woman who told her cowboy boyfriend that the butch woman was actually a man in the ladies room. And here is some irony, the victim’s partner saw the assault and she is a very femme trans woman. So the butch gal got the beating that the trans woman would have gotten if she didn’t pass. Now back to the “men, who are clearly men, who cling to being men, who demand what they see as their privilege to invade women’s spaces, regardless of how it makes women feel.” Who are those people? Do you mean recreational weekend cross dressers? Then I would agree! They can inconvenience themselves a few evenings a month. Do you mean the North Carolina college student who got hassled on her campus? She had 6 security people policing her gender and throwing her off the grounds. Do you mean the gal who just started transition and doesn’t blend so well? Should she just put up with whatever happens until she gets surgery? Do you mean the middle aged gal returning to college well over two years into her transition who has some classmates who have noticed she’s a big boned gal with thick wrists? I know that isn”t who you mean because you said so above! So then, who is your personal imagined transgender revolting mess in the restroom?

And yes, I speak out in my gender studies class and in the speakers panel at my college about my past. In part it is in the hopes that people will get some understanding that they can use for a relative or co-worker or neighbor who might be trans. But mainly it’s because I know for a fact that the dangerous stalker in the bathroom is not me and the flasher-peeper in the bathroom is not any of the transitioning women that I know. And if I speak up then people who listen can now say that they know a trans woman and can see that we are not monsters. Then hopefully when they go into a supermarket ladies room and see a young person coming out of a stall who doesn’t quite look average enough they can think it’s some trans college kid getting her life together and not just call 911 and press charges. Otherwise people like me have to use the men’s room. And that’s a sure way to trigger exactly the revulsion and discomfort that any woman would feel. That isn’t a safe place for a transitioning gal.

Okay, well it is good that you are not trying to downplay that revulsion. So many do. But, seriously, comparing it to racial prejudice? That is quite poor… I do think things were better when people had carry letters, rather than carrying an attitude of privilege. Why would you need a letter from your surgeon? If you have had the surgery, I don’t think there is much that could be said. If nothing else, you could always drop your panties and show them you are a female. (Yes, I am being humorous….) When I first started out, I did carry a card explaining my situation. I never needed it. The issue is not having a date, but at the very least having a plan. And no, I don’t mean that vague, “Oh, I might have surgery one of these days, if someone hands me the money, and I’m in the mood, and, well, Hell freezes over….” sort of claim we get from some. No, seriously, you have a penis, and you want to keep it, you really don’t belong in the ladies room. And yes, there are RARE cases of women who have been hassled in the ladies room. Granted, they are almost always cases of stone cold butch lesbians who are bordering on FTM.

Who are those men? How about Colleen Francis for a good example? Look that one up, and no, not that silly piece on Transadvocate where Cristan Williams tries to cover up what happened. Look at the earlier stories, where the facts are. And yes, some are weekend cross dressers who now think they have a right to invade women’s space, because they become women as soon as they put on a dress, click their six inch heels three times, and say, “I’m a woman.” I mean someone like a certain well know TG activist here in San Francisco, now deceased, who was quite aggressive, and who had no plans for surgery, and who left no doubt as to the fact that said person was a male.

Again, it would be nice if some of these people would just show a little sensitivity, and realize they are making women uncomfortable, and avoid doing so in the future. Sadly, there is little chance of that…

Really, bottom line, if you can’t go to the bathroom without causing a scene, and the student in North Carolina is an obvious example, then wait until you can. Is that REALLY too much to ask? And if you don’t have the good sense to avoid areas where people are going to see you naked, don’t go in locker rooms, or saunas, or such. Like Colleen Francis, who was sitting with his legs apart, and his penis exposed…

REVULSION is not grounds for discrimination or exclusion , if it were nobody would be able to go within 30 miles of a member of the GOP because they’re repulsed by EVERYBODY. Westboro baptist church would be surrounded by an exclusion zone, and the entire USA would be occupied by rush limbaugh alone. If we went with revulsion as legal grounds for discrimination and exclusion the world would be an even bigger mess than it currently is.

If the issue is males entering sex segregated space that is set aside for females, yes, it is grounds. But hey, thanks for playing. And thanks for proving my point about those who have no respect for the feelings of women, even though they claim to be women themselves….

I have plenty of respect for women, what I don’t have respect for is peop0le projecting their pet theories and their own personal hatreds based on a small portion of a populace to legitimise stigmatising all from said community.

If you have respect for women, then you should understand that they do not want a bunch of men in dresses invading their space. That is the real bottom line. The safety issue is just one aspect. But that fear is very real.

1. fetishistic crossdressing prettyu much makes a person ineligible for a diagnosis of GID, always has, 2. you list people with comorbid conditionms that would make them ineligible to begin with. 3. Do you want a list of all memb ers of any other minority group who ever committed a crime? Cause if not you display a double standard. Women commit crimes, MEN commit crimes, you name me 1 group of people regardless of name, sex, gender, sexuality which contains no criminals . Go on, anything less just shows you are holding us to a standard your own community could not meet either. Unless you’re gonna try and convince me myra hindley, rose west, Aileen Wurnoss, Kristen Gilbert, Nannie Doss, Darya Saltykova, Beverley Allit, and Dorothea puente were all trans. I could go on to list others, serial killers and rapists but I believe my point is made.

You do realize that women are NOT a minority group, don’t you? And fetishistic crossdressers are very much a part of “transgender,” the largest portion in fact. GID has nothing to do with it. Further, transgender is a behavior, not a medical condition. Transsexualism is not part of “transgender” UNLESS the person who is transsexual chooses to identify as transgender. Transgender is an identity, not an objective state.

I respect peoples right to call themselves what they want. Someone tells me I’m a she or I’m a he I’ll respect that. At the same time I am not a transadvocate. Sometimes I resent how Trans people are automatically considered the most oppressed. Is just being a factory worker who works 16 hours a day or a coal miner getting black lung or a young African American being tracked to prison enough for anyone to care anymore or is that not exciting enough if you have “cisgender privilege”. It’s best not to formulate stereotypes based on meeting individuals but all the Transwomen I have met were totally crazy, like alcohol drugs and a tendency to seek attention and like deliberately fail at things and screw things up. Don’t get me wrong they have some endearing qualities too but goddammed I get why people might want to shun them.

So, if they tell you they are a tree, will you accept that? Beyond that, you raise a lot of good points. Those who wish to be called “transwomen” are usually seeking attention. They most assuredly do not wish to simply be women. The very idea apparently disgusts them, because they seem to go out of their way to insure no one would ever mistake them for such.

This entire debate circles around basic human rights. Every human is just that a human. We all fear anything that challenges our deeply held beliefs. We struggle against change. In the very end, transwomen seek to be treated as the women they feel that they are. As a feminist I seek to establish the rights of ALL women, those who identify as trans well due to the hoops they must jump to prove that they are, I welcome them as sisters.

I stand against these so called radical feminist who make us all look like ignorant women. Cathy Brennan and Roseanne both are examples of those who fear change. They need to rise above their education and realize that underneath it all we are not just women, but we are human.

Freedom of speech allows you to say whatever you like, but you also must take responsibility for it. Too many of the commentators here seem to believe that freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want and no one is allowed to criticize it. No, my freedom of speech allows me to response to someone else however I like. Again, as I as I’m aware of the consequences. In this case, there are consequences to Rosanne Barr saying transphobic things. Those consequences are that people are going to judge her based on those opinions and she has to live with that. I’m not a terrible person for calling Rosanne a transhobe after she clearly says something transphobic.

There are terrible people on both sides of this issue–as is the case with every conflict. I judge the people who says “die cis scum” just as harshly as TERFs. TERFs are far more vocal and slanderous, though. Just look at the things that Rosanne said. She implied with a fist that trans women are pedophiles for wanting to use female facilities. I can’t speak for all trans women, but I’m pretty sure most trans women just want to change or pee and get on with their day. I’m a trans woman and I usually only use the women’s restroom to pee and then leave. No one complains and no one can tell I’m trans. I don’t wear a sign or anything. I take offense at this mentality that all trans women are predators. I’m not a predator. I have nearly been sexually assaulted before and many trans women are raped. Why the hell would I ever want to do that to someone else? I’m not a villain. I’m not a demon. I’m not some shadow lurking in the corner of the women’s restroom. I just wish that people would stop trying to make monsters out of us.

The whole “bathroom thing,” it’s a big pile of sensationalism based on lies. Cis women don’t routinely expose their genitals to one another in the bathroom. Women’s bathrooms are built to be more private that men’s rooms as a rule. Also if someone wants to pull a ruse to assault someone they are going to do it, no matter what the law says. The whole bathroom thing is a red herring. And if women aren’t capable of something better than reducing other women to what’s between their legs, then those women doing that are practicing anti-feminism and self-contradicting when they decide to try and don the mantle of feminism. Anti-trans thought and action is anti-feminist thought and action. Stop bullying trans women. It’s just an example of gatekeeping, of targeting those weaker than you because you don’t have the guts to stand up to the patriarchy itself. Stop it.

No, but increasingly, trans extremists are demanding access to locker rooms and showers, where women do expose their genitals. And the fact remains, for women, the restroom is seen as something of a sanctuary from men. So, quite frankly, if you are a male, and obviously so, you should have the decency to stay out. And if you don’t have the decency, you sure don’t belong…

What’s wrong with you? There is nothing wrong with someone being gay and it’s messed up that you would tell any woman(whether trans or not) that they “need” a cock up them. Yeah Roseanne is a bit of a bigot, but your other comments are uncalled for.

The Transgender are notorious for saying things like this.
Some of them act like chauvinist men.
Their true colors are ugly.
They go on about Barr and her comments yet they want to control our speech, God forbid someone questions if one of them are a man or a women, then the Shitstorm of the century breaks out.

did that person (and I use the word loosely after seeing what they said) ever SAY they were trans? NO Yet again you assume and tar a whole community Anne . You may wanna make sure before you slander an entire group of human beings.

It doesn’t matter if the person is trans, gay, straight, or a Martian…that comment is out of line, period. But yes, that IS the sort of comment more than a few people who identify as trans have been making lately. Not all, perhaps not a majority, but more than a few, and quite often. So yes, they are becoming notorious for saying such things. And yes, some want to control other’s speech….Right Sandeen?

DUDE NOT COOL. That is one of the most repulsive things you could possibly have said, I hope for the sake of my faith in humanity you’re just a troll, cause you sure as hell aint an ally any human being needs.

I am older and have lived as a female most of my life. The issue of bath rooms is silly. In my time, we always used the ladies room. You went in quietly, shut the stall and did your business. No one cared, we presented no threat and in fact were essentially invisible. There have always been creepy men, they just lived under the rocks.

Some females do have penises. Its rare, quite, but no female wants one on her body. We did what we had to do and if we couldnt we lived with it. Of course, our lives were limited. No partners or husbands or real friends because the last thing we wanted was for anyone to know. A lot of us died young for all manner of reasons. Surgery was expensive and there were few options in making it. So many lost, not one of my friends from that time survived. They are gone for all the reasons that people should know. Not that anyone cared.

Now, in this time, things are changing. That is a good thing. Perhaps some of us will live into old age.

Personally I dont understand why a female would want to keep a penis and use it. They stop working anyway once you have been on your meds a while. But, I dont really care.

All this fuss about TOILETS???!! Including the apparent fact that you think people should beat up ANYONE (of any gender) about what toilet they use? If they grabbed somebody or something, maybe … but making a big fuss about someone just being there and using the facilities?

“Granted this was in the good old days before the gay and lesbian communities exploited transsexualism and invited cross dressers and the transgender to colonize our label and steal our narrative for their own.” – excuse me? Are you joking? Do you not know about Stonewall and the fact that trans women of color led that rebellion! Trans people have always been at the front lines of the struggle-it’s white gay men and lesbians who have colonized the label and stolen the narrative. Also I just want to say that I used to identiy as a lesbian separatist and essentially was a TERF. This was before I met any transgender people and before I realized I was a transman myself. For me being a TERF was a manifestation of my irrational envy and hatred towards men. I was jealous and covered up my grief and my transness with this dogmatic ideology. I hear the same projection today in a lot of TERFs arguments. Yes a lot of trans men are misogynistic but a lot are some of the best men I’ve met. Yes drag queens and gay men can also be very misogynistic, but many are not. I know lesbians who have raped their partners- should I create some polemic conspiracy about how lesbians as a class of people are all inherently rapists? It’s really sad that you all can’t see the obvious prejudice and sensationalism in your arguments. I hope one day you come to the root of why you really have so much hatred and anger and stop blaming trans women.

I know all about Stonewall they were not transgender as we know them today but instead drag performers, which historically are homosexual men.

Stonewall went unnoticed for nearly 30 years, no mention of it was made on the FIDONET discussion groups of the 80s. It wasn’t made into a big deal until the early 90s. Even then it was regarded as a gay event, not a TS or (the new emerging word) Transgender event. I love how history gets rewritten.

The so called Stone Wall riot was a simple case of the cops raiding a gay bar and doing what they did back in that day, beat up the “homos”. This event has been turned into a piece of political propaganda to draw the subcultures of lesbian gay bisexual and transgender together in order to politically exploit them. If half the people who claim they were there actually were, a whole city block would be standing room only and it would have made the news. Yes indeed just another gay myth. I don’t know of 1 single person who can actually prove they were there who makes that claim. But dispute this lack of evidence this carries as much religious weight as Jesus being nailed to the cross and with fewer witnesses.

What you are calling “trans women” were drag queens. There were no “trans women” back then. There were a few, extremely rare, transsexuals…more than a few fetishistic crossdressers, and drag queens. It was drag queens at Stonewall. Now, I could care less if the TG crowd wants to co-opt drag queens as TG, because I am not transgender. But of late, they seem to be deciding they don’t want the drag queens, given some of what has been said during the Ru Paul kerfluffle. So, your view has a bit of a problem. And proves, one again, what I have said repeatedly…transgender is a meaningless term, highly subjective, an artificial political/social construct, and that only those who actually identify as transgender should be referred to as such,

As a trans woman, I know I do not speak for all other trans women. I also, do not always like it or agree when the trans community speaks for me.

Rosanne is a loud mouthed comedian. She is as entitled to express her opinions as anyone else. If she makes those thoughts public, others are entitled to disagree or agree.

The bathroom issue is a very difficult one. I confess, I do not particularly feel comfortable in either restroom. Going out in public often enough has me planning in advance what I will do if I need to do what is natural for all humans.

The women’s restroom is usually the one I choose, because stalls are much more private, and more often than men’s rooms, women’s rooms have just one toilet, meaning I can go, lock the door, do my business in private, and leave without having to tarnish anybody else’s purity with my trans cooties.

Also, women are far less likely to beat me to a bloody pulp, which is a legitimate concern which I have had the honor of learning first hand when a bigot decided to take matters into his own hands and teach me a lesson, resulting in multiple scars, a broken heel and a sprained ankle. My crime? Being trans.

So, I apologize in advance to anyone who is weirded out by my biological need to expel waste from my body or my decision to do so in a restroom rather than in a dark alley. I am also sorry if my being trans causes you to be in fear of me peeking under the stalls, or using the restroom in any other way besides to relieve myself. Most people are relieved just to use the restroom. I am relieved every time I leave one unscathed.

Umm some were drag queens and some were trans women. You seem to conflate the two. And just because it was called a gay event then does mean that transwomen did not exist then- language was still being developed to describe the diversity in gender expression and identity. http://srlp.org/about/who-was-sylvia-rivera/

So are women who are born without vaginas men? Do you really believe that genitals define gender identity? If you woke up tomorrow and had a penis would you suddenly identify as a man? What about intersex people? Did you know that the only biological definition that distinguishes sexes throughout the animal kingdom (including us) is the size differential of gametes? Everything else is a variable. Chromosomes, hormones, organs, etc.

[b]Damned Straight I believe reproductive organs do define the physical sex of a human or an animal.[/b] The problem with transgenders is they went you to believe the sky is some color other than blue when there are no clouds on a sunny day.

In spite of rather contrived claims, the concept of transgender as it is used today did not exist until the 1990s. Thus, “transwomen” (which is an even newer term if truth be told) did not exist in 1969. There were transsexuals, who were, and still are, actually rather are. And there were crossdressers. And their were drag queens.

Why are you singling out transwomen? Why not trans men? After all trans men are the ones that recieve male privilege and the physical strength to harm someone. What is your official response to someone like me who used to be a lesbian seperatist but is now a pansexual trans man? Am I a sell out, giving in to the patriarchy? Also where should intersex people with both genitalia go to the bathroom? Why won’t you respond to any of my questions? Are you actually interested in debate or is your motive just to hurt people by misgendering and insulting them?

Have you ever seen a person in a comment thread stop and say, “Yeah, you got me. I am a troll.”?

I find discussions like this helpful, although I have never been able to get someone online to admit they have had a change of heart, I have seen it happen in real life countless times. The key word there is “discussion”. If someone, especially on an anonymous website, feels the need to generalize all of one type of person… to the contrary of what has been said BY that type of person, they are not worth the time.

Besides, the sky is not blue on a cloudless, sunny day, nor is it olden, orange or red at dusk and dawn, nor is it dark purple at night. That is just an illusion created by light passing through the Earth’s thick atmosphere at different angles, kind of like a prism.

The sky is never blue on the Moon.

Perhaps trans women are right about the sky not being blue… ya’ know? Perhaps they occasionally need to use the bathroom too.

Is it really worth generalization or name calling when instead, there is an opportunity to explain how trans people need to pee too, and that the sky in fact, is not blue.

“The problem with transgenders is they went you to believe the sky is some color other than blue when there are no clouds on a sunny day.”

Again what about intersex people? Which gender are they based on your belief? What about women who are born with a uterus? Are they still women in your eyes even though their reproductive organs are not there? Also what about the many cultures who throughout history have had more than two genders? This two gender/sex binary system that you keep reinforcing is a product of patriarchy – why maintain it?

Haha thanks for the in depth response. Well many trans people view gender identity disorder as a birth defect and hormone therapy and surgery as the treatment. I just had a trans man in my support group tonight find out he is genetically male but never fully developed. But I’ll stop engaging because it’s obvious there’s no interest on your part in educating yourself or developing compassion. The feminist movement has moved on-stop living in the 70’s and stop using trans people as a scapegoat for your anger and pain. I know it’s easier to target communities more marginalized than yours instead of the larger dynamics responsible for women’s oppression. It’s really a shame.

The “No dicks around” comment from feminist separatist reminds me of “no gays” or “No colored people” in other facets of society.
These feminists separatist seem so far removed from what feminism is about and that root was equality but equality has been thrown out in order to marginalized and bully trans folks…
How bogus.

No, they have a right to choose who they wish to have sex with, and they choose to not have sex with males with penises, even if those males with penises are delusional and insist that they are really females.