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Wednesday, 28 February 2007

A mirage of abundant living

Every year at around this time it has become my custom to help supervise a school camp for sixty plus 10 year olds. I always return exhausted but with a deeper appreciation of what we used to call "human nature".

As we all know, "human nature" is vanity, envy, lust and greed. At least that's the litany the Armstrongs used, and the ministers parotted ad nauseum. These days, thank God, I'm a lot more optimistic about the human condition.

The news about Steven Lessard arrived just as I was heading out the door with my bags on Monday morning (thanks Gary). It's a tragic story, and more proof, if we needed it, that being a COG Christian is no guarantee of the "real abundandant living" that Rod Meredith has drivelled on about for decades. Back in the 70s the WCG in this part of the world launched an advertising campaign based on "happy families": a bit like KFC launching a nutrition campaign. I've known maybe two really fine examples of happy, loving families in the church. Most fell well below the threshold. All those smiling faces in the GN and TW - Mum, Dad and freshly pressed kids - invariably come from photo agencies, and are likely to be Baptists or Catholics. Terry Ratzmann apparently swallowed the hype, and so did Steven Lessard. A lot of good it did them.

"Raised a Catholic, the youngest of five, Kathy grew up in South Baltimore's Federal Hill neighborhood and later worked as a clerk for the state of Maryland. She became involved in the Worldwide Church of God, an evangelical denomination with 67,000 members in more than 100 countries. She met Steven Lessard at a church event for young adults.

"Family members said the Lessards often traveled on what they thought were church-sponsored trips. They did not celebrate holidays and while they could receive cards, as far as the Aros knew, there was never a Christmas tree in their house."

The Lessards were, like most AW readers, estranged from the WCG. Like some of us they continued as "independents", trying to "hold fast" to their COG identity. I'm not sure I want to comment further on the Lessard murders, other than to note that the Kathy and Linda's passing was to be acknowledged with a funeral Mass, a compassionate gesture in the direction of Kathy's pre-COG Catholic roots. May they rest in peace.

56 comments:

Saac's Son
said...

I sincerely wish that Steven Lessard had been active on this blog, or some of the COG-related forums. Perhaps the outcome would have been different if he had had a regular outlet for discussion. It sounds from the reports as if everything built up in his system until it all reached critical mass.

I have had the feeling for some time now that we are some of these peoples' only link to reality.

The church of gods has never been a particularly sane environment; in fact it is like an insane asylum where, instead of getting out when you get better, you get better only when you get out.

Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet none of whose prophecies ever came to pass while he was alive and few if any have come to pass after his passing. He promised to lead us into the Kingdom. So far, the only place he could lead us to is the grave.

Personally, I believe that the effort to reconcile things which simply cannot be true leads to the dissociation -- or at least aggravates it -- to the point that people can no longer hold any sense of rationality. Accepting impossible crazy things is rather destabilizing and debilitating.

The situation is further aggravated when people find that they have been lied to. At that point, there is no way to process experiences and overload occurs.

A man in United some years back told me he was depressed: I told him to stop reading The Good News. You know the one: where they went on endlessly about wars and shootings in schools, global pollution, etc. And my favorite: A robber all in black pointing a gun out from the front cover.

In fact, recent studies seem to indicate that preteens worrying about such things as global warming is having a profoundly negative effect on them, such as preventing them from sleeping. Imagine the impact upon children at church hearing about the nuclear holocaust and the Great Tribulation while they were playing on their blankets.

The depressed mental health professional in United stopped reading The Good News. He got to feeling better almost immediately.

It is doubtful that the church has done any of us much good in the arena of mental health. There hasn't been much peace, and, in fact, the churches of God seem to be at war with one another these days. Obviously, the Scripture about the Spirit of God imparting a sound mind doesn't mean the same thing it did in the First Century.

The leaders of the church of gods throwing rocks at each other, sheep stealing, seducing, lying, teaching obvious scientific fallacies beyond heresy and committing idolatry simply isn't a formula for sanity. Neither is looking at their websites, for the most part.

As a matter of fact, some churches of God are only websites and nothing much else.

And if that isn't enough, the ministry of the churches of God simply stopped listening a long time ago, if they ever listened. To have problems and issues which are not addressed in any meaningful way is tempting fate -- you never know when someone has finally been ignored one too many times and will go postal. The behavior of the church administrators is frustrating and maddening at best. They don't care; they don't have to. Until they all die off or are offed.

The ministers in the churches outright lie to people. When the people find out, and they can't do anything about it, they become apathetic. Listen for, "Nothing ever changes around here". That, and Dilbert cartoons showing up in church. When people have the merest slip of a glimmer of hope that they can escape the bondage of lies, they rebel.

As the pressures of the world increase and the world becomes ever more insane with radical Islamic Arab preschool children becoming suicide bombers, the advice of the church to "Watch World News" is counterproductive if we really want to find a balance of sanity.

Shred The Good News / "Tomorrow's World" or whatever gloom and doom magazine is sitting around on the coffee table. For heaven's sake, don't read them. And turn off the TV news. It's hard to say, but being shot out of a cannon may be more healthy for you.

I believe that when so many leave any particular Armstrongist church, and yet still believe in it's tenents, there's a large number of people there that may have a very hard time in life.I contacted several of the writers of the articles about this topic and let them know that this was hardly an isolated incident.

The COG Sabbatarian community both in ORGS and independents, numbers probably in the neighborhood of 30 to 35 thousand.

Therefore, it is likely that 3 to 4 people a year are going to commit suicide in this community. That just makes us average. Based on the last few years, this sounds about right, about 3 to 4 suicides a year. This is normal.

So "Armstrongism" didnt make anyone more crazy than the general population.

Im am no defender of Armstrongism, although I am a Sabbatarian et al. However, posters to this forum claim to be "enlightened" and "scientific". I see that through the bitterness towards all things Armstrong, that they have empowered his legacy to be the cause of every evil that perpetuates within the COG community.

This is nonsense.

The COG community has no more of a higher criminal rate, adultery rate, alcholic rate , schizophrenic rate than any other human sub group you want to pick. In fact, it is very average by all standards.

The question shouldnt be why do these things happen within the COG community , but rather, why didnt Armstrongism have a more positive effect in lowering the incidence of the base line of these vices/promblems.

It would be better stated that Armstongism was impotent to solving many personal problems.

A personal relationship with Jesus Christ DOES solve personal problems. If you have not found this yet, it is my prayer that you find it , and embrace your Savior and his love for you.

lussenheide said,"Therefore, it is likely that 3 to 4 people a year are going to commit suicide in this community. That just makes us average. Based on the last few years, this sounds about right, about 3 to 4 suicides a year. This is normal."

What do you mean by RELATIONSHIP? Is a relationship possible with a concept? With a historical character?

WHICH Jesus Christ? The Evangelical one? The macho/butch COG one that GTA prattled about? The Sacred Heart Catholic one?

What kind of PERSONAL PROBLEMS? What peer reviewed studies can you cite? Or are you just giving a waffly personal witness, or maybe whistling in the dark?

And Bill, while you're at it, what's this crap about "posters to this forum claim to be "enlightened" and "scientific" "

Sez who? Apart from you? Musta missed that. Anyone here uppity enough to claim to be what you say would be jumped on pretty quick - nobody likes a smart ass. A few smart cookies might drop by, but they're smart enough not to "claim to be" anything particularly special.

You've got to be making this up. Or are you projecting your issues onto other people? Or just indulging some knee jerk conservative bias of your own?

You say some good things sometimes Bill, and then at other times you revert to WAY down the brain stem.

It should be pointed out that NIHM and NAMI say that 90% of people who commit suicide are mentally ill.

As for having just as many alcoholics as the general populace, that would seem to contraindicate the stats by the minister coming through in the 70s educating the WCG about alcoholism: It is about 8% higher in the churches of God. In my experience, it may be much higher than just 8%. There may be a reason for that.

Armstrongism has attracted people with high analytical reasoning -- the left brained people. Very few are the right brained. Since alcoholism is genetic as is the inherited aptitude of analytical reasoning, the two may well be related. Or it may be that alcoholics are attracted to Armstrongism. Given the boozers in the WCG, particularly under GTA and David Jon Hill, that may also be the case.

Now it just turns out that alcoholism often leads to other dysfunctionality. If you have enough of your church as drunkards, of course you are going to have problems. This is a problem that Dennis Luker tried single handedly to solve in the church without much success.

Actually, the WCG and the follow on groups have had more than their fair share of difficulties above and beyond the general populace. At the core of the problem, I do believe, are the lies and the idolatry, which is going to alienate people from sanity. The WCG and xCGs lie. It just isn't possible to be stable in a venue of lies. Look at the biggest lies: The false prophecies which are never coming to pass. Taken to the extreme, people are going to go nutty when their beliefs don't come to pass and they finally take things into their own hands. There certainly seems to be a flavor of that in these murder suicides: Frustration of unfulfilled hopes.

Religion and spirituality are fine: The stats say that Christians live an average of seven years longer and probably have a better quality of life. Armstrongism doesn't seem to produce that sort of fruit. At the very least, most of those who have a semblance of being reasonable should admit that there is definitely something wrong -- particularly when one would expect that a "sound mind" would produce fewer unpleasant incidents than say, an atheist. I don't know what the stats are on Protestant churches, but they should look better than Armstrongism.

Insanity is a definite problem. Armstrongism is replete with distorted perceptions and distorted perceptions are at the core of mental illness, just as it is in politics, advertising and management.

Armstrongism produced a lot of chaos in many people's lives. That is also true of many of the xCGs, especially the smaller ones. Talk to someone who has left the PCG or CCg if you don't believe in this particular chaos theory. It's nuts in there. REALLY nuts! Exceptional requirements just to keep the big robot money machine are astounding. Fixating on a single man as your contact with God makes you subject to all his peculiarities, such as obsessing on Gerald Flurry, the alcoholic six pack prophet with his arrest report online. Personal opinions are raised to the pedestal of doctrine. The contradictions lead to many things which are supposed to work to be unworkable. There's no way to come close to predicting tomorrow, if you rely on the prognostications of your ministerial idol. Unrealistic fantasies abound. Eventually the whole thing unravels and people are left stupidly holding the bag in pain with the unfulfilled promises made by narcissistic men.

None of us should discount the pain that results from such a venue. It takes time to form a realistic vision of "what is". Unless or until that happens, the problems will continue to surface as mere symptoms of a bigger underlying disease.

Lussenheide's statistics:"The COG Sabbatarian community both in ORGS and independents, numbers probably in the neighborhood of 30 to 35 thousand."

"Therefore, it is likely that 3 to 4 people a year are going to commit suicide in this community. That just makes us average. Based on the last few years, this sounds about right, about 3 to 4 suicides a year. This is normal."

MY COMMENT: Me thinks you have your ostrich head buried too deep. I can tell you horror stories that were NEVER reported. I'm sure you have heard about Charlie, who was my friend when we were in the Navy together. He was the one in Seattle who wasted a few church members over a "love affair". Most of you never heard about it until years later. It was kept under wraps by HQ. Then there was the guy who murdered his two daughters when it was his turn to have them stay with him, and killed himself. Then there was the lovely picture of the family singing at the feast in one of the slick PT magazines(just like the picture in the Good News above). He molested his little daughter for months before his wife found out. I could go on, but hopefully, Bill, you get the PICTURE. Most of these atrocities are kept quiet, or COGs just don't care and call them "statistics". Of course, they just become non-caring statistics to us, and we call it "normal".

lussenheide said:"However, posters to this forum claim to be "enlightened" and "scientific". I see that through the bitterness towards all things Armstrong, that they have empowered his legacy to be the cause of every evil that perpetuates within the COG community."

MY COMMENT: Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Even you. Nothing good has come from Herbert W. Armstrong, or his system that all of the COGs seem to desire to perpetuate for the obvious reason of profit. Some folks may be bitter, but the FACTS speak for themselves.

You wrote: "The COG community has no more of a higher criminal rate, adultery rate, alcholic rate , schizophrenic rate than any other human sub group you want to pick. In fact, it is very average by all standards."

This is not the product that HWA and his derivatives have avidly marketed. They marketed the idea that by carefully following certain principles that they and only they had been inspired to understand, your life could be grand not just average.

And when their system did not work, they blamed the people who were trying to practice the system rather than review the system to see if Herbert might have been in left field.

In a fallen world, comprised of fallen men and fallen women and fallen relationships, a successful marriage is a gift of God, an act of grace. Not the product of a collection of legalistic principles, known but to a few who style themselves God's leaders. This put Herbert in a bad spot because his doctrine of grace was so anemic as to be nonexistent. So he cut his followers off from the very source of life in order to maintain control over them through legalism for his own self interested purposes.

In the old WCG, the "smiling family pictures" actually were shot by the Church's photography staff. Check the PT credits, and about five people were on staff. That disappeared, of course, with the big budget cuts from "the changes" in the 1990's.

In UCG today (can't speak for any other groups), such pictures do seem to come from subscription photo services. That admittedly concerns me, too.

The teaching that we were a special protected group, immunized by the Holy Spirit against many of the problems of "Satan's" world was another instance of faking the presence of the Holy Spirit, just as happened with prophecy, blessings for tithing, and divine healing.

In fact, it amplified the anguish amongst the brethren. Taught that true happiness was the rule for a WCG member, many sank much more deeply into depression agonizing over why the happiness thing somehow never seemed to apply in their individual case.

Being around Pasadena for many years, I knew many of the people who were photographed for the magazines. Those posing were chosen because they were photogenic, not because they were examples of people with no problems. Some of those photographed, in fact, had some very very deep problems in their family relations, and personal lives.

Anyone who does not believe that certain statistics and facts were suppressed, soas to avoid badly reflecting on or diminish the drawing power of the WCG, is seriously naive, and questionable in their powers of thought and reason. But then, cultic thinking and the resulting mind atrophy will do that to one.

The photos, the ads, magazines, et al. never show real people. I remember myself being surprised when I first attended services back in 1974, that there were "hicks", "fatties", "old people" and "low lifes" who were attending church. From my only experience with the church, which was from literature only, it was quite a reality check.

The COGs would probably be better served by being a little bit more realistic in the expectations they are producing in their potential audience.

The pride of being a "perfect little society, the Kingdom of God in embryo, now on Earth" would be wisely dropped as well. We all now what a crock that is.

As corny as it sounds, and it has been overused in general Christianity, but the idea of a "Hospital for sinners" with legitimate marriage counseling, addiction workshops, and other areas of concern would probaby be a better use of time and effort within the COG, rather than sitting long hours on ones very sore buttocks trying to figure out who is the rightful inheritor of the "Elijah Mantle" or "Which Calendar to Use" or "Who are the Laodiceans"

The WCG was textbook cult. When my wife and I fully realized that we dropped separate letters of resignation into the mailbox on July 18, 1993, a date we still refer to as Julyteenth.

Douglas Becker wrote, "None of us should discount the pain that results from such a venue." We don't dicoount any of the pain. But we decided to try to take account of where we were and move on-- without bitterness, if possible. My wife put it best, I think: "Herbert Armstrong was a charlatan who made fools of us all." We accepted that and did move on.

But bitterness was there. So much was lost in those years, finacial family, and otherwise. We had a lot of sarcasm. Some things we could laugh over. Like once we were discussing what the real basic tenets of Herb's beliefs were. We narrowed them to two: "There's a sucker born every minute" and "A fool and his money are soon parted."

Even after fourteen years out there's still distance between us and our children that go back to the our time in WCG. We're in retirement now with a good bit less savings than I expect we would have had except for helping Herb live like a maharajah.

But our Bible belief is stronger than ever. There's a lot of knowledge out there not connected with Armstrong. I'm taking correspondence courses from Ron Moseley's American Institute of Holy Land Studies. I have learned from scholors like Roy Blizzard and Dwight Pryor. I've attended seminars by Jim Fleming who speaks in Houston a couple of times a year. And some by Michael Rood too. But I don't follow anyone. Nobody's a guru. I accept from them all what I accept and disregard all that I don't. There's quite a bit to disregard too.

Over these years we've attended some services from one or another of the splinters, generally independent groups not hanging on to the Mussolinian style government of the old WCG. But, there's no way we're joining anything. For sure, none of these outfits will every again get a tithe.

Twenty-one years in WCG was our choice. True, it was not a good one, but it was the one we made. Those years are gone. These years we still have.

"Taught that true happiness was the rule for a WCG member, many sank much more deeply into depression agonizing over why the happiness thing somehow never seemed to apply in their individual case."

Well put, byker bob.

This is such a common thing in various destructive cults, such as the various Armstrongist Churches of God, Scientology, and Amway, to name a few.These destructive cults peddle a defective product that does not produce the happiness promised.When questions are raised, the members are advised to "fake it till you make it" or are told that the lack of fulfillment is their own fault for not adhering well enough to the teachings, or their having a lack of faith.The message is often sent that it is their personal responsibility to "shine their light" as a positive example of the cult.There is often much darkness hidden under the fake sparkly facade.

When the defective product that these destructive cults peddle fails to deliver, depression is often a result. Unfortunately, instead of realizing that the destructive cult is to blame, these folks immerse themselves more deeply in the cult, believing they need to "do it better" and "believe more fervantly".

When the poison of the cult wounds them, too many simply take more poison thinking it will act as a cure.

The poison of Armstrong's church has produced much depression, and a crazy "us versus the world" mentality in countless people.

The ACOG community is hardly a healthy place to be. As Douglas Becker said, "...it is like an insane asylum where, instead of getting out when you get better, you get better only when you get out."

I just knew it! And, I am so happy that you are here with us. We may not have all the answers, but we do have many years of collective experience, and can thrash things out in a way as to make some sense of it all.

There really is no need for despondence to set in, because we do have service-minded individuals like Gavin and Gary who put in a lot of hours providing a venue to help all of us former brethren.

Another sickening example of what Armstrongism does to people. Even when folks get out of Armstrongism, it follows them where ever they go and the effects linger for years, if not for life.

I have a feeling there is more to this story. My first wife and I got divorced 10 years after leaving the wcg and it was a direct result of the after effects. Actually, that came pretty close to a murder/suicide.

Evidently Steven Lessard had a temper control problem, demonstrated by over-reacting to a flat tire. This probably showed up a little more often at home and behind closed doors.

What is so sad is that they once loved each other so much and they were destroyed by that cult. But why kill the daughter too? There has to be more to the story . . .

Lussenheide wrote: "The photos, the ads, magazines, et al. never show real people. I remember myself being surprised when I first attended services back in 1974, that there were "hicks", "fatties", "old people" and "low lifes" who were attending church. From my only experience with the church, which was from literature only, it was quite a reality check."

MY COMMENT: I don't mean to keep picking on lussenheide, but he keeps putting his foot in his mouth. He's pickable. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I wonder how those hicks, old people, low lifes, and fatties perceived lussenheide?

Steven Lessard might have had a "temper control problem", as the previous poster phrases it, but I would bet this was just the outward manifestation of a deep frustration which permeated his life -- frustration often manifests itself in different forms, including anger, depression, and feelings of helplessness. It is well-documented that life in a cult will produce these exact feelings.

Perhaps the flat tire was just the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

Armstrongism focuses on appearances. It amazes me that the WCG developed the notion of the meaning of unleavened bread yet was the chief violator of the principle.

The idea that Armstrongism was a belief system that led to true happiness was a big selling point and had to be protected from careful analysis. The hype helped.

But I recall that lay members, back in the late Sixties, were very concerned about appearance as well. It was not just confined to the leadership and ministry. A stock photo appeared on the cover of the Good News and it showed a family having a picnic. The father was serving hot dogs. Many lay members reacted with alarm. They wanted to know if the hot dogs were kosher and why the buns were not whole wheat. I remember our pastor explaining from the pulpit that the photo was a commercial one. Instead of parsing through these fine pixels of trivia, they should have been asking themselves whether the picture of the happy family really matched the reality they knew.

Maybe HWA was happy in some strange, malformed way. He had a species of prestige, wealth, authority and self-esteem.

"They didn't change the doctrines of the church, just of a corporation. The church went elsewhere."

No, the majority of that church's members separated themselves and went elsewhere. The church, however, did change its doctrines, as it did on various occasions prior to 1986. Those who went elsewhere, of course, went in different directions: most joined one brand of Armstrongist sect or other, others returned to mainstream or orthodox Christianity, others joined other religions, others became atheists. Are all of those who went elsewhere, with their conflicting beliefs, "the church" that you say didn't change its doctrines? If not, which part of them is "the church," and how can we tell, since none of them agree with each other?

More bad news, this time in the Sunday keeping community. The Calvary Satellite Network is in a meltdown. Here is the article in today's LA Times.

--------------

http://www.latimes.com/news/

God's word, plus static, on Calvary Satellite Network

Amid accusations over sex, money and control, Pastor Chuck Smith is about to surrender much of the evangelical radio empire to a man he calls morally unfit for ministry.

By Christopher GoffardTimes Staff Writer

February 28, 2007

WHEN Chuck Smith, founder of the worldwide Calvary Chapel movement, decided to invest big in radio, the Orange County evangelist joined forces with a pastor he trusted.

Mike Kestler was one of his proteges, a folksy preacher with a ponytail who had ridden the Calvary phenomenon to a pulpit in Twin Falls, Idaho.

Smith had presided at Kestler's wedding. He'd helped Kestler keep his job after a churchgoer complained that Kestler had begged her to run away with him.

Now, the pastors would be business partners. Kestler knew how to run a radio station. Smith had money and a famous name. They shared a vision of FM radio as a megaphone for God's word.

Bolstered by $13 million from Smith's Costa Mesa church, Calvary Satellite Network grew into a spectacular recruiting tool for the evangelical movement. In listening areas across the nation, Calvary Chapels proliferated.

But relations between the two pastors deteriorated. In 2003, Smith cut off funding for the radio network, precipitating a crisis that continues to roil Calvary's leadership. It sparked a war for control of the network on terrain Smith had preached against for years: the earthly courts.

The two sides have hurled accusations of lust and greed, betrayal and embezzlement. As part of the battle, Smith funded a lawsuit against Kestler by a former Dallas Cowboys cheerleader who said he had fired her from her radio job for rebuffing his sexual advances.

Now, after a year of hugely expensive legal sparring, the 79-year-old Smith is so eager to settle the case that he is willing to do so at a staggering loss.

He is about to surrender much of the radio empire to Kestler, a man he calls morally unfit for ministry. Smith says that by walking away, he is making a Christian gesture....

Mr. Douglas Becker wrote: "Talk to someone who has left the PCG or CCg if you don't believe in this particular chaos theory. It's nuts in there. REALLY nuts! Exceptional requirements just to keep the big robot money machine are astounding."

Yes, you have it right! Armstrongism with all it's failed prophecies by the various apostles and leaders does lead to despondency. Here you were, year after year waiting and praying for the end to come. The end never comes. You grow disenchanted with the leadership which denies it ever said this or that! They may even tell you to destroy any literature from years past such as the six pack prophet did to his sheepeople.But on the other hand some people need to feel special. Some post to blogs and some like our friend Bruce (you all should know who I speak of) send spam that is totally off balance. A healthy mind?

Waiting for the end of the world or praying for it is not a sign of a healthy mind. Perhaps contributing something to the world would be a way to exhaust that negative energy into a positive result. Work at a soup kitchen, help the poor. Give alms to those who are in need. If the leader of your church is in need and his children are hungry, give them food. The basic rule of donation is to not feed someones habit but contribute to the human need for food and shelter and medical care! Tell me people, when you give your tithes to your church, how is it being used? Does it help the world or local community at ANY level?

Well I am sorry to say that the armstrong related cults never help anyone. I am sure there are exceptions in the case that an individual helps a family, perhaps tutors a child, or in some other way that benefits society.

The Plain Truth of the matter is the armstrong cultist religion is organized so that ALL the money is sent to them, the corporation. To go outside this corporation and the policy that is spoon feed to the sheep from the pulpit, is to deny Christs will. "Jesus is not trying to save the world right now" you might hear. Such abominations have been heard before. Think rcg after Katrina.

Therefor, you who are defenders of armstrongism, you who predict the end of the USA, the world, or relay to us all here that God is pissed off at us for forsaking herbism, let me say this. You contribute nothing to society. You have buried your talent (salvation.) If or when Christ appears, you WILL hear the words "I never knew you!)

Lussenheide wrote: "The photos, the ads, magazines, et al. never show real people. I remember myself being surprised when I first attended services back in 1974, that there were "hicks", "fatties", "old people" and "low lifes" who were attending church. From my only experience with the church, which was from literature only, it was quite a reality check."

Picking out the low lifers was not hard. Sit behind this type at church and watch him gloat over the children was not just a singular experience.

My own experience is that the members of the congregations I was a part of in the WCG were a cross-section of the surrounding communities. With that came a number of people of dubious mental stability. Couple that with the information age and maybe, just maybe Mr. Lessard realized that the church had well over a hundred failed predictions, its leaders were as corrupt as any politician, the "One True Church" was now over 500 "One True Churches", and began to wonder if the church was right about the place of safety, being a 'King and Priest' in the world tomorrow, and becoming God as God is God. Which, if we are honest with ourselves, the aforementioned three items were three of the biggest, if not the biggest 'dangling carrots' of Armstrongism. Take those away from someone whose clutch on societal norms is tenuous at best and voila, disaster.

My $.02 worth.

What a damned shame these deaths are.

What would they say in his congregation??? What do they say in the COG's when this sort of thing happens?- "He was never really converted"- "He had a Demon"- "He lost the Holy Spirit"

The COGer's that post here (Or don't post but read it anyway) should pay close attention to what Kscribe contributes...Here is a man who, at the very best calls God's existence into question, yet displays a much more Christian, read: "Charitable" attitude than they do. With nothing to gain, physically or spiritually, he takes the higher road...exhorting you to contribute to this world, help someone out, and calling you out for the brood of vipers you are.

Im confused by your statements. They are very bigoted and unfair in my humble opinion.

I accept that many are upset about their "Armstrong Experience". I repeat that I am not an advocate of Armstrong, abuse or dysfunctional religion in any fashion. I have my own horror stories of personal experience of being "ground up by the system".

However to say that "all" of the "COGrs who post here or do not post but just read" are a "brood of vipers" is grossly unfair.

I know of many, actually very many "COGrs" who are assisting at senior homes, contributing to the Lifenets projects, and serving their communities in myriad of ways. They are wonderful people and Im glad to know them. I also appreciate the goodwill efforts of anyone, religious or not.

Sabbatarianism and belief in God does not necessarily translate into someone being a freak. No more than the idea that every German was a hideous Nazi. Or that every white person was an oppressor of Black people during the slavery era etc.

I sense that not a few of the readers of this forum make broad brushed statements about whole classes of people, perhaps out of unresolved anger. However, the statements are bigoted and biased.

Bitterness, anger and resentment lead to mental illness. I do not deny that there are things to be bitter, angry and resenting about in regards to alot of the Corporate ORG COG experience. However, anyone still harboring these feelings, or trouble coping with them and lashing out at others indiscriminately should seek help, counsel and treatment.

I want to agree with Bill L. that there are some fine people in various parts of COGdom working hard to make their faith positive and relevant. Bill is obviously one, and I have a lot of time for Pam Dewey and some of the more balanced independents.

Maybe Bill will agree, however, that these folk are still a minority. Independent thinkers are quite rare, and people who have bothered to get off their chuffs and acquire some real knowledge about the Bible and Christian history (as opposed to cheap fundamentalist apologetics) are almost non-existent among us.

Like it or not there are a lot of spiritual Nazis out there, raking in the tithes and feeding off the flock. They - not people who comment on this blog - make it difficult for the genuine, non-abusive strands of the Church of God.

Lussenheide,Quit your crap, trying to assert that you are taking some kind of "high road" here.Your shit stinks too, dude.And as far as you calling others "bigoted and biased", maybe you should look in the mirror.

I looked at the "Master's Table" website that you contributed to. Though they falsely claim to be "unbiased", there is CLEARLY a bias, just like in your bigoted and biased postings.

I'm soaked with negatives from the COG bashers - a great display of intellectual prowess. But I have yet to hear some useful and constructive suggestion as to what is the better way.

Do we just simply do the opposite of what COG taught -- and then everything will be okay?

My impression is that Gavin and many posters here have never gotten over their negative experience decades ago, which seem to compel them to forever curse the memory of everything COG, as if to feel better.

This obsession, I'm afraid is the kind thing that led some to suicidal and murderous tendency, etc. -- if not insanity.

To Anonymous who said, "I'm soaked with negatives from the COG bashers",I'll give my personal input.

You are asking a basic question, that was asked of me by an ACOG member, before he commited suicide: I'll paraphrase the question..."If this isn't true, then what is there?"Your post seems to beg the question.

I simply do not know the ultimate answers in life, and am now ok with being an ordinary person as part of of a larger community of people.

The ideas of being "chosen", "above others", or "in the special spiritual know", are definitely anathema, from my perspective, now.

There is a difference between "cursing the memory of everything COG," which I doubt that most do, and admitting to the fact that the foundations of the organization(s) was based on a terribly flawed premise.

There was much I enjoyed about my COG years. Some wonderful people. Some beautiful settings, including the campuses, and many of the Feast sites. I have strong and pleasant memories of many things.

That has nothing to do, unfortunately, with the realization that I came to in the past decade: I simply do not believe that a creator God would establish his "end-time true church" through an individual who, at that very time, couldn't keep his hands off his own daughter. All the rest, as they say, is just details.

I have read and heard those who have tried to discredit that story. Personally, I didn't want to believe it. But it was first told to me by an individual who remains a prominent, well-known and widely read COG true believer. He was and is convinced HWA did those things, but followed it with "it doesn't affect the message."

Sorry, but it most certainly does. As I quietly explored what he had told me -- I presume he thought either that I already knew or that, if I didn't, I would blow it off like he had -- I talked with several individuals, some from many years past who had left the organization without fanfare. I encountered one close friend from childhood who was surprised I didn't know and said he had heard the news from an Armstrong grandson. Another person close to me had heard the news from a different Armstrong grandson, one who certainly would have known, back in the 70s. When I asked why she'd never said anything, she admitted she hadn't wanted to hurt me, my parents, etc. Both people had parted ways with the WCG some 15 or more years earlier.

I cannot speak for others, but that sort of news changes everything. Too much of the organization's history was tied up in the premise that a man -- that man -- could be "the one," and that it was God's design that we all fall in line behind him for the end-time push. It amazes me that there are individuals -- especially some who I know personally and who I know are well aware of this sordid tale -- who continue to fall back on "Mr. Armstrong said" as a way to trump all arguments, when what the man did speaks so much louder...especially when one considers that it was at the very beginning of everything.

Yes, it's old news now. But I am amazed that there are those willing to sweep it aside to protect their turf and pursue arguments. I am not.

Learning the news caused me to look at things in a different light. I realized I had to. It was during a time of doctrinal upheaval in the WCG, and I transitioned from skepticism to curiosity.

I don't curse the memory of everything COG. I love and care about many people who remain, and recall them, and certain activities, etc., with fondness. But as the defenders of the faith (read: man) rally to their cause, I can't get past this foundational problem. It is not lost on me that neither can they.

In regard to the previous poster's message, the revelation of sexual deviancy in the leadership is also what finally opened my eyes and helped me escape the UCG cult -- funny how things stay the same from one generation to the next. Except, rather than HWA molesting his own daughter, it was Richard Pinelli and the UCG Council of Elders blatantly lying to cover up for an elder who had molested a young girl in a West Virginia congregation.

I did use a broad brush and I apologize to the very few of you in Armstrongism that do practice love and concern to your fellow man, whether they be armstrongists or not. I do however stand by my statements. You would never see a COG sponsor a bake sale or sell oranges to raise funds for a food kitchen, buy little league uniforms for underprivileged kids, or a local health clinic.

Money raised by the church was always for the church, with the rare exception of raising money for YOU sport uniforms.

If a few of the splinters are actually beginning to get involved in their communities as a church, than good for them even if they are 2000 years late to the table.

I can remember a few times that the men and women of the church would go split wood for a widow, repair her car, or something like that...but it was only for fellow members and the minister at the time was nearly always absent from anything that involved work.

Since I still have a couple of family members entrenched in armstrongism I know that the suffering of fellow human beings bothers them but they are really interested in it only so far as they can use it to support their world view in prophecy, not help solve the problems.

Thanks for your addition to what I've already heard about the incest story. Like you, I've had no desire to believe it. Unlike you, I have not been privy to the words of the Armstrong grandkids. But for the past few years, I've had to acknowledge that the consistency of the evidence and the way it fits HWA's other personality traits strongly suggest that he did indeed force his way into his own daughter's bed.

Yes, it's old news now. But I am amazed that there are those willing to sweep it aside to protect their turf and pursue arguments. I am not.

It's not old news. I still discover relatives who had never heard of it -- not even as a rumor.

But I agree -- it's astonishing that members, ministers, even evangelists will brush it aside. Certainly they can't feel that it's okay for a man to rape his own daughter. But they've decided that even though it's wrong, it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter if God's Apostle did something truly evil, and did it for years. He's still God's Apostle. He's still Mr. Armstrong.

Annonymous wrote:Your shit stinks too, dude.And as far as you calling others "bigoted and biased", maybe you should look in the mirror. I looked at the "Master's Table" website that you contributed to. Though they falsely claim to be "unbiased", there is CLEARLY a bias

MY RESPONSE: I am not associated with, or know the principals of "Masters Table". I know zip about them.

In fact, I have no idea who they are or what they believe. Any writings that I have done over the years are free to be used by anyone,and I allow them to have "open domain".

Parties that do use any of my writings do NOT necesarily represent my endoresement of their group or of their idealogy.

"The leaders of the church of gods throwing rocks at each other, sheep stealing, seducing, lying, teaching obvious scientific fallacies beyond heresy and committing idolatry simply isn't a formula for sanity. Neither is looking at their websites, for the most part."

This is a broad brush, not all of the CoGs are doing the above, some are doing one or two of these, others a doing more, some are doing none. Just a broad brush with no substantiation.

"....it was Richard Pinelli and the UCG Council of Elders blatantly lying to cover up for an elder who had molested a young girl in a West Virginia congregation."

Lying to whom? And what do you mean 'cover-up?'

Do organizations need to air out someone elses dirty laundry for you or for me? Really now. The guy should be arrested, prosecuted and punished, the young girl's name protected and the matter resolved. Why do we always expect to have a CNN moment and disclosure on issues that are private even if criminal?

Organizations have a right and churches have a legal duty to not disclose details to anyone. They do have a responsibility though to the authorities to make sure it is addressed quickly and legally.

I don't think that any of the ACOGs reputations sink or swim on the basis of whether or not they contribute to or participate in humanitarian endeavors. But, it isn't right to say that none of them do, if that isn't factual.

People use a larger picture when forming conclusions about the ACOGs than to simply look at humanitarian activities.

Personally, I see the bad and abuse in HWA's church and it's splinters as far outweighing any good in them.

Lots of bad cults participate in humanitarian activities. Jim Jones's church did, the church of Scientology does, as do countless others. Some actually are beneficial, and some are used to recruit members into the cult. In the latter category I'm reminded of the Hunger Project(of Werner Erhardt's EST cult) that had the goal of ending world hunger(by 2000?). It never gave a hungry person as much as a grain of rice, but did succeed in recruiting thousands into his cult and raising lots of money.Many people in these orgs genuinely have altruistic intentions, and are people with good hearts. Problem is, that these good folks have fallen for a scam, in so many cases.

From my perspective, I see that many good people that love others and are very giving people have fallen under the influence of harmful orgs. I wonder if Steven Lessard would have been a man who was loving and a contributer to society if he had a background in a church less toxic than the WCG.

LifeNets is totally separate from UCG. Victor Kubik has for years been the target of certain COE members who detest the existence of LifeNets -- they are afraid people might *gasp* be sending some of their tithe money to LifeNets rather than to the UCG central bank.

VK has really endured a lot of sh*t from some people for working so hard to improve the lives of those less fortunate. UCg has a track record of opposing any project initiated without explicit approval from the UCg central government, but when the project is shown to be successful, the central government tries to take it over. Examples: Winter Family Weekend, the magazine U.S. Teens, and the so-called "Good Works Projects", which is a LifeNets knock-off that exhibits all the imagination of an Excel spreadsheet.

Victor Kubik is a hero -- he has stood up to some real bullies, mostly within his own organization, and diligently worked hard to improve the lives of those less fortunate.

While LifeNets is indeed separate from UCG, keep in mind many of the people helped by the organization are UCG members. Exactly what percentage, I'm not sure.

There have been exceptions to this -- such as relief efforts after Hurricane Katrina.

But indeed, Victor Kubik has been a trailblazer -- going back to the Worldwide days when he uncovered the Ukrainian Sabbath-keepers. That blew up many people's myths about the "one true church."

He's still blazing trails with LifeNets -- such as recently going through Better Business Bureau scrutiny to become affiliated with the BBB. How many COG's would dare do that with a similar financial accountability organization?

Vic Kubic was the first and almost only minister I ever worked with as an assistant way back. We were in Minneapolis. We always had a great time together visiting and lauging our asses off. We were a bad combo for being cheeky about some of the more hilarious aspects of the ministry and some we knew. I've seen Vic through gains and losses and had a few issues with hims as well in later years when things were coming unglued. However, Vic is truly a humanitarian capable of rising above the fray and just doing good for needy people. Of course he ticks of some of the old COGGERS. Everything Vic does will get "fixed" in the Kingdom, so "don't waste time or money on it now. And besides, those people won't learn their lessons if Vic keeps bailing them out."

I have always had great memories with the real Vic. If you read this Vic, Whoppers, Fries and cokes don't cost $2.22 anymore, it's still ok to buy a hollow chocolate Easter Bunny on sale AFTER Easter when your diet has driven you nuts for sweets, and somewhere in the bottom of that River in Minnesota still probably lies a darn good bottle of wine.

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