This thread is silly. Coulda saved two pages of arguing if you simply logged in and pressed your Fervor button.

On topic, I've tested this tier on dummies for hours. This is my personal experience, take it with a grain of salt.

They are all very close and situational.
Dire Beast consistently does less DPS for me than the other two, even single target.
Fervor and ToTH are very very close single target.
Fervor is better for reliable burst.
TotH is generally better for AoE, but RNG can be good or bad.

I prefer Fervor in most situations. Fervor makes my rotation easier and more reliable. TotH makes my rotation more complicated and unreliable. Dire beast is another GCD I have to work in, and it's much easier for it to be wasted due to timing/target switching/getting killed.

Dummy testing isn't a good way to test, you could have better RNG on the other talents(eg. More LnL procs, more crits than your average crit %) and you might not play as good and you are missing key buffs. According to what I last(2-3 months ago I think) simmed for SV @ femaledwarf.com, DB was ahead of Fervor by around 2-3k
Currently:
Fervor+aMoC+GT: 104947
DB+aMoC+GT: 104628 -319 DPS
TotH+aMoC+GT: 103159 -1469 over DB or 1788 DPS loss over Fervor

Fervor scales better with gear from what I undestand, the DB damage portion doesn't scale as well as the fact that once you get higher Mastery, your AS will do more damage thus increasing the value of Fervor. However, there is still this "soft-cap" at like 3.6k haste, which gives DB addinational tick over its duration. That is not achievable on this tier without sacrificing way too much crit/mastery.

In my opinion, Fervor requires the most skill to use, it is very easy to focus cap with it and so you should really be careful when to use it.

Something people seem to forget is that Fervor restores focus to both you AND your pet (and restores 50 instantly, and another 50 over 10 seconds). The main focus part (~200 focus a minute) is equal to TOTH, the reason you're seeing the DPS boost is because of the focus restored to your pet. Thus Fervor also becomes worse on fights where pets have worse uptime - not neccessarely bad enough to warrant using TOTH or dire beast, but it's something to consider.

Something people seem to forget is that Fervor restores focus to both you AND your pet (and restores 50 instantly, and another 50 over 10 seconds). The main focus part (~200 focus a minute) is equal to TOTH, the reason you're seeing the DPS boost is because of the focus restored to your pet. Thus Fervor also becomes worse on fights where pets have worse uptime - not neccessarely bad enough to warrant using TOTH or dire beast, but it's something to consider.

You're right as usual Draco, also the pet portion is never wasted(unless your pet was running a marathon just before you used Fervor) from what I can tell, pets pool the focus to around 40 IIRC in case you want to use their special abilities.

In my opinion, Fervor requires the most skill to use, it is very easy to focus cap with it and so you should really be careful when to use it.

I wouldn't say it requires more skill - just some time to get used to it.
IMO, this talent tier is one of those shining examples of how Blizzard can make several completely different yet almost perfectly balanced abilities (and the discussion in this thread kinda proves that).

Dummy testing isn't a good way to test, you could have better RNG on the other talents(eg. More LnL procs, more crits than your average crit %) and you might not play as good and you are missing key buffs. According to what I last(2-3 months ago I think) simmed for SV @ femaledwarf.com, DB was ahead of Fervor by around 2-3k

Dummy testing isn't perfect, but either are sims.
In this case where it's fairly easy to test, with enough patience, I trust my results more than the sims. Like I said, I have tested it for hours so RNG doesn't play as much of a factor.
I guess DB would benefit more in a raid environment due to sunder and 4% phys debuffs but that is minor.

Originally Posted by Tehterokkar

In my opinion, Fervor requires the most skill to use, it is very easy to focus cap with it and so you should really be careful when to use it.

As long as you pay attention to the cooldown and dump your focus before it comes up you will never focus cap with it. If you can do that it is very simple to use and it actually makes your rotation easier by helping get AmoC and BA off instantly.

Dummy testing isn't perfect, but either are sims.
In this case where it's fairly easy to test, with enough patience, I trust my results more than the sims. Like I said, I have tested it for hours so RNG doesn't play as much of a factor.
I guess DB would benefit more in a raid environment due to sunder and 4% phys debuffs but that is minor.

As long as you pay attention to the cooldown and dump your focus before it comes up you will never focus cap with it. If you can do that it is very simple to use and it actually makes your rotation easier by helping get AmoC and BA off instantly.

Sims are always better than dummy testing. No question or doubt about it, in terms of theoretical output. For practical purposes, its argueable.
And it doesn't matter with sunder/phys debuff, because there's a magic taken debuff that'll benefit your arcane/explo shots from fervor, too.

Sims are always better than dummy testing. No question or doubt about it, in terms of theoretical output. For practical purposes, its argueable.

Agreed. Though if I cared more about theoretical output than practical purposes I'd be playing Microsoft Office Excel rather than World of Warcraft :P

And it doesn't matter with sunder/phys debuff, because there's a magic taken debuff that'll benefit your arcane/explo shots from fervor, too.

I haven't done the maths for this, but I would assume that 4% + sunder would be more valuable than 5% spell damage, right? Theoretically if DB/Fervor/TotH did exactly the same DPS on a dummy without debuffs, then DB would be marginally better in a raid environment due to it providing more physical damage than the other two (I was forgetting the focus generation aspect of DB, but the point still stands).
I'm probably missing something, I haven't really thought about it, it just occured to me. Also it's an incredibly insignificant point, I'm just nitpicking :P

edit: Thought of something I missed. Mastery buff increases the value of Fervor/TotH over DB marginally as SV. Haste buff probably has some kind of interaction as well. Sounds like a job for sims.

I suggest you prove it by having a boss fight log or a screen shot of your recount "shots fired" and prove us what your "big statement". FYI, there are many top logs out there that everyone can compared to...If you don't have one, it's all words, but i highly doubt you are right...Put your money where your mouth is and bring us some numbers for us to crunch, i believe alot of people will be interested so that they can compare what suits them the most, which will be very helpful...

Currently, I switch between BM (where I always use DB) and SV for AoE fights (where ToTH pulls ahead anyways). I have been trying out SV single target, but those are on private logs.

However, Rogerbrown used Fervor during progression, even with BM and with SV, and I consider him one of the better hunters in the world. I'm a recent convert to Fervor, but I'm also 15/16H so I do have experience with testing and tweaking my own personal performance, and I merely stated that *I* shoot more AS with Fervor simply because it's a smoother focus regen and I have the ability to plan around it so I'm zeroing focus right when it comes off CD. ToTH is unpredictable, and that, to me, wildly devalues it, because I'm a rather analytic, planning type of player.

Plus, people have posted the top SV logs on single target, and many of them WERE using Fervor over DB, and very few ToTH.

On or off GCD, Fervor gives you control on your focus, and it is priceless in SV

Same goes for ToTH...it gives me much smoother rotation and almost always i have an instant arcane shot to fire instead of cobra shot ..so CS i use just to keep sting up almost most of the time
For me ToTH is a king and i ll never replace it ! ;p
TotH = u spam very hard hitting arcane shots on 1 sec global CD
Favor = u spam shit load more Cobra shot with cast 1.7 sec cast time and hit for less !!
So guys sorry to say it fuck your sims in reality ToHT is better
Why would u need favor ? cuz u are bad at saving focus for your next BA or Explosive shot ?

Same goes for ToTH...it gives me much smoother rotation and almost always i have an instant arcane shot to fire instead of cobra shot ..so CS i use just to keep sting up almost most of the time
For me ToTH is a king and i ll never replace it ! ;p
TotH = u spam very hard hitting arcane shots on 1 sec global CD
Favor = u spam shit load more Cobra shot with cast 1.7 sec cast time and hit for less !!
So guys sorry to say it fuck your sims in reality ToHT is better
Why would u need favor ? cuz u are bad at saving focus for your next BA or Explosive shot ?

LoL ? farvor gives u focus for 2 extra shots on 30 sec CD ....can u call this a lot ? it doesnt make sense to YOU
If u use Farvor instead of ToTH u still doing more CS and less arcane shots then me !
Shame u have so many posts in hunter forums and didnt got what i mean :-)

Question here is not witch gives what focus ...question is are u ready to play reactive gameplay with ToTH and be rewarded if u do it well ...or just pick some of the other craps that are easier to use .
Another question is do u want to have as many Arcane shot as my auto shots or u want to cast cobra shots >.>
Looks a lot of players here like to cast Cobra shots ....i dont mind that its your playstyle ...but not mine ;D

hahahaha and btw that extra shots u do ll probably be arcane Shots if u pick farvor ...man i got this free arcane all the time ToTH proc on top of it self more often then not ;p AND NO THIS IS NOT A DPS LOOSE and no u really dont have to use all 3 charges all the time ! <3

Fervor, imo is much better for BM due to Pet regen, but for SV, i doubt that's the case. But to say TOTH takes less skill to play than Fervor, I think yore perception of TOTH is that the proc must be spam to get it over and done with, but that will not always be the case. To me, more instant shots fire = yield higher DPS (that is if you do not suffer from focus thirst or delay ex shot, BA or Crow when it's off CD)

Question here is not witch gives what focus ...question is are u ready to play reactive gameplay with ToTH and be rewarded if u do it well ...or just pick some of the other craps that are easier to use .
Another question is do u want to have as many Arcane shot as my auto shots or u want to cast cobra shots >.>
Looks a lot of players here like to cast Cobra shots ....i dont mind that its your playstyle ...but not mine ;D

hahahaha and btw that extra shots u do ll probably be arcane Shots if u pick farvor ...man i got this free arcane all the time ToTH proc on top of it self more often then not ;p AND NO THIS IS NOT A DPS LOOSE and no u really dont have to use all 3 charges all the time ! <3

i suppose your dps are on the same level as your english skills.

furthermore your assumptions appear to be false. neither math nor extensiv testing support your claims. please feel free to provide us with numbers or logs, we are still open to facts.

my biggest practical problem with TotH? Can't even spend all that focus on single target fights. The talent really shines when AoE'ing the shit out of something that has quite the hp pool. 25 HC Sha of Fear Adds come to mind.

Question here is not witch gives what focus ...question is are u ready to play reactive gameplay with ToTH and be rewarded if u do it well ...or just pick some of the other craps that are easier to use .
Another question is do u want to have as many Arcane shot as my auto shots or u want to cast cobra shots >.>
Looks a lot of players here like to cast Cobra shots ....i dont mind that its your playstyle ...but not mine ;D

hahahaha and btw that extra shots u do ll probably be arcane Shots if u pick farvor ...man i got this free arcane all the time ToTH proc on top of it self more often then not ;p AND NO THIS IS NOT A DPS LOOSE and no u really dont have to use all 3 charges all the time ! <3

You really don't know much about the class...
TotH sims about 1.8k DPS less than Fervor, please read the thread before you come here arguing bullshit.

It pains me to see how many people have begun blindly following sims like it's the bible.. Tell me, did you guys follow the sims in Dragon Soul when it told you MM was the top ST spec ? I bet none of you were and all of you were playing SV like the rest of us. Sims give you an idea of theoretical potential. It is not written in stone..

And to the people speaking against ToTH rofl just listen to yourselves and you'll realize how stupid you sound. Atleast come up with decent arguments.. "Oh well this talent gives me SO many arcane shots that I don't even have time to use them all" Yea.. too many arcane shots.. definitely a bad thing eh ? morons..

It's just based on playstyle.. If you're a reactive player, ToTH is slightly better. If you are a non-reactive player who likes to plan things out then fervor might be better for you. Regardless, they are both roughly equal, with the potential gain of ToTH being much higher due to 'good' rng. But even with bad rng it isn't behind much.

Now, with all that being said.. it means nothing when it comes to actual results. To me atleast, no matter how logical something is or how much sims favor something, I won't be convinced.. What convinces me is real in-game numerical evidence. And that sides with fervor. Majority of the top parses of SV have hunters using fervor. Including Rogerbrown (25m) Kennyloggins (25m) and Sanqui (10m). Rogerbrown and kenny being MS BM hunters who recently switched to SV. While Sanqui has been SV for majority of this tier. And he seems to be going Crit>Haste>Mastery for some reason. But in the end though it really boils down to playstyle.

It pains me to see how many people have begun blindly following sims like it's the bible.. Tell me, did you guys follow the sims in Dragon Soul when it told you MM was the top ST spec ? I bet none of you were and all of you were playing SV like the rest of us. Sims give you an idea of theoretical potential. It is not written in stone..

And to the people speaking against ToTH rofl just listen to yourselves and you'll realize how stupid you sound. Atleast come up with decent arguments.. "Oh well this talent gives me SO many arcane shots that I don't even have time to use them all" Yea.. too many arcane shots.. definitely a bad thing eh ? morons..

I am honestly interested in the topic, but I stopped reading what you wrote after that. You know you could even be in right, but the way you expose your arguments make me want to slap you in the face. Learn some manners, please.

It pains me to see how many people have begun blindly following sims like it's the bible.. Tell me, did you guys follow the sims in Dragon Soul when it told you MM was the top ST spec ? I bet none of you were and all of you were playing SV like the rest of us. Sims give you an idea of theoretical potential. It is not written in stone..

And to the people speaking against ToTH rofl just listen to yourselves and you'll realize how stupid you sound. Atleast come up with decent arguments.. "Oh well this talent gives me SO many arcane shots that I don't even have time to use them all" Yea.. too many arcane shots.. definitely a bad thing eh ? morons..

It's just based on playstyle.. If you're a reactive player, ToTH is slightly better. If you are a non-reactive player who likes to plan things out then fervor might be better for you. Regardless, they are both roughly equal, with the potential gain of ToTH being much higher due to 'good' rng. But even with bad rng it isn't behind much.

Now, with all that being said.. it means nothing when it comes to actual results. To me atleast, no matter how logical something is or how much sims favor something, I won't be convinced.. What convinces me is real in-game numerical evidence. And that sides with fervor. Majority of the top parses of SV have hunters using fervor. Including Rogerbrown (25m) Kennyloggins (25m) and Sanqui (10m). Rogerbrown and kenny being MS BM hunters who recently switched to SV. While Sanqui has been SV for majority of this tier. And he seems to be going Crit>Haste>Mastery for some reason. But in the end though it really boils down to playstyle.

Talents are way easier to sim against each other than a spec that was ultra difficult to play to achieve the same DPS as SV. T13 2pc ruined MM completely, you were focus capping a lot and keeping up Imp. SS was a total mess.

You have to remember, Sims are ROBOTS, not humans, they execute everything perfectly without a flaw, which is something we as players can't do ever. While MM was the top spec, the complexity of it was beyond ridiculous. SV was much easier to play with and the T13 2pc actually complimented the spec a LOT.

While it can be a preference for many, yeah, that's what Blizzard aimed for, people can choose which talent they prefer out of the 3, however there will still be cookie cutter "spec" which will stand out, no matter what they do.

This thread is not for "Oh but in my opinion TotH is better" but for "Statistics(logs) and simulations show that Fervor > DB >> TotH for single-target as SV"