Carver's favorite Death Battle ripoff's take on it. (He posted them a bunch of times, for their take on Superman vs Goku.)

Like on the video this is TRUE Darkseid.

Who wins?

carver9

If Grail can blast a hole in him and Powergirl can snatch his eye out, Beerus treats him like fodder. Do you honestly believe Darkseid can hit Beerus with his One has? Also, what if Beerus just decides to erase him during the onset?

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by cdtm
this is TRUE Darkseid.

Ah, the featless ***** that got outsmarted by Constantine...?

dvampire

Darsied doesn't have to dodge lightning. Even though beerus is powerful,, whhhhhhy dodge such a simple lightning attack when he can just take? It must cause him pain. Plus, their insides aren't as durable, another reason to dodge electricity. And Darsied won't bat an eye to his attacks, but darsied could kill physically or the omega beams that beerus can't dodge. Now his transmuted into whatever!

cdtm

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Ah, the featless ***** that got outsmarted by Constantine...?

He was ending the multiverse.

carver9

Do you think Beerus is mumtiversal?

cdtm

Do you?

playa1258

True Darkseid rapes.

carver9

Originally posted by cdtm
Do you?

Per what you said, Darkseid is multiversal which means that you have to think the same of Beerus since I know you wouldn't intentionally make a spite thread. Hello!!!

cdtm

Originally posted by carver9
Per what you said, Darkseid is multiversal which means that you have to think the same of Beerus since I know you wouldn't intentionally make a spite thread. Hello!!!

Don't make me get Darksaint on your ass. I'm sure he has some six figure numbered pages archived of threads you created arguing "Hulk busts Universe/Dimension/Planet, his opponent doesn't"

carver9

What does this have to do with what I asked? I'm asking you a question. Why bring up something I might've done? Don't get it.

Dark-Kenshin

If Darkseid is not hindered by the standard PIS (the kind which allows Superman to beat him), he stomps. Beerus is likely has more destructive output, but Darkseid's full list of abilities are far too versatile for the god of destruction to handle.

carver9

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
If Darkseid is not hindered by the standard PIS (the kind which allows Superman to beat him), he stomps. Beerus is likely has more destructive output, but Darkseid's full list of abilities are far too versatile for the god of destruction to handle.

Name these versatility

cdtm

Originally posted by carver9
Name these versatility

My potential bz opponent, ladies and gentlemen!

dvampire

He can mind control.

cdtm

Lets go down the list:

1. He can transmute (Turned Slobo into a living statue)

2. Erase (Omega Effect)

3.. Transport (To Superman, MANY times in the early post crisis. To Earth mostly, but also imprisoned him and Infinity Man after a chase where Clark claimed the beams were "Too fast!" )

4. Transport through time (To the Omega People and Batman)

5.. Power drain (Countless pantheons)

6. Depower (To Secret in Young Justice.)

7. Inflict agonizing, non physically damaging pain (To Superman)

That's for starters.. His eye beams are ridicuously plot devicey, doing whatever the hell he needs them to do at the time.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Depends which Darkseid you're referring to, here.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by cdtm
He was ending the multiverse.

That happens every day in comics and twice on Sundays.

Leave K'un Lun basement and see for yourself, ffs.

carver9

Originally posted by cdtm
Lets go down the list:

1. He can transmute (Turned Slobo into a living statue)

2. Erase (Omega Effect)

3.. Transport (To Superman, MANY times in the early post crisis. To Earth mostly, but also imprisoned him and Infinity Man after a chase where Clark claimed the beams were "Too fast!" )

4. Transport through time (To the Omega People and Batman)

5.. Power drain (Countless pantheons)

6. Depower (To Secret in Young Justice.)

7. Inflict agonizing, non physically damaging pain (To Superman)

That's for starters.. His eye beams are ridicuously plot devicey, doing whatever the hell he needs them to do at the time.

Worst versatility comeback I have ever seen.

cdtm

He can send Beerus to the end of time.

Prof. T.C McAbe

True Darkseid will have a new Parademon.

cdtm

Even a Darkseid avatar can capture/erase souls, or trap Beerus in an endless parade of dimensions. He has literally no defense for some of Darkseid's more exotic powers.

Robtard

True Darkseid is omnipotent, so he just cockslaps Beerus

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

omnipotent is a strong word...

NewGuy01

It's a strong word for most of the folks we call omnipotent around here.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

As far I'm concerned, you can only be considered omnipotent if you're supreme in your respective fiction, capable of anything and everything. Examples include The One Above All and The Presence.

ares834

The Presence is not supreme.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Prove it.

ares834

Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. The Great Evil Beast is the Presence's equal and counterpart, ergo the Presence is not supreme. Then in another comic, the Presence claims to have been shaped by other external forces.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

1. It was implied in later comics that if Spectre was able to harness his full power, he would have been able to stop GEB, lol...even if we assume they were equals, Yahweh merges with GEB at the end of the comic, creating the current Presence as we know him.

2. Him being shaped by external forces was confirmed to be the dreams of mankind. Shaped doesn't mean created, just his form and appearance. A similar notion is shown with Michael Demiurgos, due to some people's dreams he's shaped to be Michael the Archangel, but for others, he appears as Kali, the Hindu goddess of death.

ares834

1. I don't care what is "implied". The GEB is the Presence's equal and counterpoint as mentioned in the comic. Unless their merged form is infinitely greater than the parts, then he is not Omnipotent.

2. Which still shows he is not all powerful.

MythLord

1. GEB is the equal of the Divine Hand, which is an aspect of the Presence, just as the Source, LOGOS or the Voice are.

2. Not sure how that's relevant. Yahweh chooses to appear as what people dream/think of him, so that they don't lose their minds He's noted as much to Elaine. We know that even Lucifer is above Dream(who's also a bi-product of two of Yahweh's other children: Mother Night and Father Time) who has total control over all dreams in existance, so why should the Presence be subserviant to his grandchild who happens to be far inferior to even the Demiurgos and the Morningstar?

cdtm

Ostranders Specter delves into the metaphysics of multiple creation myths, when the protagonist tells Zeus in a disagreement on the various accounts: "They can not ALL be true!", to which Zeus simply responds "Why can't they? Creation can have many aspects."

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by MythLord
1. GEB is the equal of the Divine Hand, which is an aspect of the Presence, just as the Source, LOGOS or the Voice are.

2. Not sure how that's relevant. Yahweh chooses to appear as what people dream/think of him, so that they don't lose their minds He's noted as much to Elaine. We know that even Lucifer is above Dream(who's also a bi-product of two of Yahweh's other children: Mother Night and Father Time) who has total control over all dreams in existance, so why should the Presence be subserviant to his grandchild who happens to be far inferior to even the Demiurgos and the Morningstar?

and this falls in line with the idea that a "fully harnessed" Spectre could defeat GEB.

ares834

Originally posted by MythLord
1. GEB is the equal of the Divine Hand, which is an aspect of the Presence, just as the Source, LOGOS or the Voice are.

Where is this stated? In the comic, the GEB is stated to be God's counterpart.

Originally posted by MythLord
2. Not sure how that's relevant. Yahweh chooses to appear as what people dream/think of him, so that they don't lose their minds He's noted as much to Elaine. We know that even Lucifer is above Dream(who's also a bi-product of two of Yahweh's other children: Mother Night and Father Time) who has total control over all dreams in existance, so why should the Presence be subserviant to his grandchild who happens to be far inferior to even the Demiurgos and the Morningstar?

Apparently because Carrey claims so. Regardless, god claims he is "shaped" by these forces (whether you take them to be dreams or not), not that he chooses to take that form. Which would show a limit to his powers.

Edit: And apparently, according to the wiki, he was wounded in the newest Lucifer series.

MythLord

Originally posted by ares834
Where is this stated? In the comic, the GEB is stated to be God's counterpart.

The fact that it wasn't Yahweh that directly intervened, but instead his divine hand, which as we know is just an aspect; if the Presence used Spectre as a channel for his full powers he would've defeated GEB. Also, the GEB is an aspect of the Presence as well, its shadow if you will.

It's the same as the Source being Yahweh, yet being inferior to Soulfire Darkseid or the combined might of Zeus and a bunch of other high-tier gods. Ultimately, all these are just avatars and aspects of one much larger being.

Originally posted by ares834
Apparently because Carrey claims so. Regardless, god claims he is "shaped" by these forces (whether you take them to be dreams or not), not that he chooses to take that form. Which would show a limit to his powers.

Yeah, because he allows himself to be shaped by it. The idea that the limit to his power is set by his grandchild is lolworthy.

Originally posted by ares834
Edit: And apparently, according to the wiki, he was wounded in the newest Lucifer series.

That wasn't really Yahweh; that was a small portion of him that grew corrupted and didn't have his omnipotence, since that was passed down to Elaine.

ares834

Originally posted by MythLord
The fact that it wasn't Yahweh that directly intervened, but instead his divine hand, which as we know is just an aspect; if the Presence used Spectre as a channel for his full powers he would've defeated GEB. Also, the GEB is an aspect of the Presence as well, its shadow if you will.

It's the same as the Source being Yahweh, yet being inferior to Soulfire Darkseid or the combined might of Zeus and a bunch of other high-tier gods. Ultimately, all these are just avatars and aspects of one much larger being.

That's all an assumption on your part simply because God appears as a hand. The text notes that the GEB is God's counterpart and he existed outside his creation.

Ultimately, I see no reason to assume that the "hand" is merely some aspect of God rather than God himself. Especially since Etrigan straight up says it is.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, because he allows himself to be shaped by it. The idea that the limit to his power is set by his grandchild is lolworthy.

That's what Carey is saying. *shrug* Frankly, I've always taken as a more meta comment and, since I'm a fan of Death of the author, that's how I still take it. It would also fit more with Morrison's cosmology.

MythLord

Originally posted by ares834
That's all an assumption on your part simply because God appears as a hand. The text notes that the GEB is God's counterpart and he existed outside his creation.

Ultimately, I see no reason to assume that the "hand" is merely some aspect of God rather than God himself. Especially since Etrigan straight up says it is.

God has no true form, though, only aspects through which he acts. The fact thatthe Spectre could've defeated the GEB if Yahweh gave him enough power tells us all we need to know on the subject of who's superior.

Originally posted by ares834
That's what Carey is saying. *shrug* Frankly, I've always taken as a more meta comment and, since I'm a fan of Death of the author, that's how I still take it. It would also fit more with Morrison's cosmology.

Carey is clarifying what he meant with the scan. And Morrison actually openly acknowledges Gaiman's works and the entire Sandman/Lucifer storylines for what they are so he seems to hold the idea that Yahweh is also omnipotent.

You're free to interpret it how you like, but a clarification on the subject shows God is only "shaped" by dreams and prayers and that is usually how he wills it.

ares834

Originally posted by MythLord
God has no true form, though, only aspects through which he acts. The fact thatthe Spectre could've defeated the GEB if Yahweh gave him enough power tells us all we need to know on the subject of who's superior.

Except that's not stated at all. It says he could have prevent the war between Heaven and Hell not defeat the GEB itself... That's a very different thing. The GEB is not a force of Hell after all but something beyond creation.

Originally posted by MythLord
Carey is clarifying what he meant with the scan. And Morrison actually openly acknowledges Gaiman's works and the entire Sandman/Lucifer storylines for what they are so he seems to hold the idea that Yahweh is also omnipotent.

You're free to interpret it how you like, but a clarification on the subject shows God is only "shaped" by dreams and prayers and that is usually how he wills it.

He is not clarifying that in your scan though. The Presence is mentioning why he "choose" to appear as her mother. However, in the comic where God mentions being shaped, it's clear he is more than simply referring to something as mundane as his physical form. God is stating that no one can make themselves, not even himself. He is stating that he was created "shaped" by these other forces. If we take Carey's statements as fact, then God is created by the dreams and beliefs of his worshipers. A fairly common trope all things considered.

My Morrison comment was more bringing up how his cosmology is more "meta" than Vertigo's and if we take "external forces" to refer to author/editors the two would fit more nicely. Regardless, Morrison's version of "God" is certainly distinct from the Presence being not the creator but the canvas.

MythLord

Originally posted by ares834
Except that's not stated at all. It says he could have prevent the war between Heaven and Hell not defeat the GEB itself... That's a very different thing. The GEB is not a force of Hell after all but something beyond creation.

Technically, the Great Evil Beast is the whole reason for the struggle between Heaven and Hell in the first place. The only way to prevent that is to stop it, which the Spectre could've done assuming he channeled enough of Yahweh's powers.

Originally posted by ares834
He is not clarifying that in your scan though. The Presence is mentioning why he "choose" to appear as her mother. However, in the comic where God mentions being shaped, it's clear he is more than simply referring to something as mundane as his physical form. God is stating that no one can make themselves, not even himself. He is stating that he was created "shaped" by these other forces. If we take Carey's statements as fact, then God is created by the dreams and beliefs of his worshipers. A fairly common trope all things considered.

Yahweh also notes he's "infinite and eternal" in the same scan. And how can he be shaped by dreams if he existed before the concepts of dreams? God wasn't created in any sense by his worshippers dreaming him, he merely takes form to grow accustomed to said Dreams. It's the same as Morpheus being seen as a different being to pretty much anyone who encounters him. Or Michael being seen as Kali rather than the Archangel. Otherwise, no God has no actual shape, just aspects through which he acts.

Originally posted by ares834
My Morrison comment was more bringing up how his cosmology is more "meta" than Vertigo's and if we take "external forces" to refer to author/editors the two would fit more nicely. Regardless, Morrison's version of "God" is certainly distinct from the Presence being not the creator but the canvas.

Actually, in Grant's works Yahweh is actually still kind of the creator whereas Overvoid is the canvas.

ares834

Originally posted by MythLord
Technically, the Great Evil Beast is the whole reason for the struggle between Heaven and Hell in the first place. The only way to prevent that is to stop it, which the Spectre could've done assuming he channeled enough of Yahweh's powers.

No. He can straight up stop the armies as well. However, I think it more likely it alludes to him stopping the "black bird" from awakening the GEB in the first place. Spectre notes he could have done this in the first place but couldn't be bothered to do so.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yahweh also notes he's "infinite and eternal" in the same scan. And how can he be shaped by dreams if he existed before the concepts of dreams? God wasn't created in any sense by his worshippers dreaming him, he merely takes form to grow accustomed to said Dreams. It's the same as Morpheus being seen as a different being to pretty much anyone who encounters him. Or Michael being seen as Kali rather than the Archangel. Otherwise, no God has no actual shape, just aspects through which he acts.

But that's not at all what God is saying. He isn't at all talking about the form he is taking on. He is straight up saying that he did not create himself but was created by other forces. By believing it, we have made a God that has always existed and is "all powerful". It's like in the Sandman comic, the dreams of humans didn't merely switch the roles of cats and humans but rather made it so humans were always the superior species. Of course, this is all reliant on taking Carey's word as gospel, which as I said before, I don't.

Originally posted by MythLord
Actually, in Grant's works Yahweh is actually still kind of the creator whereas Overvoid is the canvas.

Morrison has claimed that the Primal Monitor is "God" in various interviews before. Of course, I don't agree with him on that as the two are completely different beings.

MythLord

Originally posted by ares834
No. He can straight up stop the armies as well. However, I think it more likely it alludes to him stopping the "black bird" from awakening the GEB in the first place. Spectre notes he could have done this in the first place but couldn't be bothered to do so.

I don't think stopping a black bird is in any way a great feat of power that should be held alongside Aztar fighting the Anti-Monitor, lol.

Originally posted by ares834
But that's not at all what God is saying. He isn't at all talking about the form he is taking on. He is straight up saying that he did not create himself but was created by other forces. By believing it, we have made a God that has always existed and is "all powerful". It's like in the Sandman comic, the dreams of humans didn't merely switch the roles of cats and humans but rather made it so humans were always the superior species. Of course, this is all reliant on taking Carey's word as gospel, which as I said before, I don't.

Technically, Yahweh says he's shaped by them, not created by them. He is infinite and eternal, his shape is in a sense reliant on the dreams of people but I've already explained why that is.
Point being, the concept of Dream itself is far, far younger than God so it's impossible for God to have been created by it. And in The Tale of a Thousand Cats it's only talking about humanity, which is a microfraction of the Presence's creation.

Originally posted by ares834
Morrison has claimed that the Primal Monitor is "God" in various interviews before. Of course, I don't agree with him on that as the two are completely different beings.

Which is awesome, but the Presence has outdone him before anyways and in a sense really does do more of the work as a painter than the Overvoid has.

ares834

Or, as I said, it could refer to him stopping the armies themselves. It certainly makes no reference to him defeating the GEB.

Once again, no. You are completely ignoring the context. Immediately before, God is talking about how he did not make himself as no one can. I don't care if you think the dreaming is capable of this or not, as the comic itself never states what these "external forces" are. However, the comic is stating that even God has his maker.

MythLord

Originally posted by ares834
Or, as I said, it could refer to him stopping the armies themselves. It certainly makes no reference to him defeating the GEB.

Which still wouldn't stop the actual war, as it's key factor is the struggle between GEB and Yahweh's Divine Hand.

Originally posted by ares834
Once again, no. You are completely ignoring the context. Immediately before, God is talking about how he did not make himself as no one can. I don't care if you think the dreaming is capable of this or not, as the comic itself never states what these "external forces" are. However, the comic is stating that even God has his maker.

Nah. Yahweh uses the term Maker in a different context to himself than he does for Lucifer. For Lucifer, he's implying a creator of sorts; for himself it's a shaper and in this case that shaper is the dreams of his worshippers. And that in no way debunks the idea that he's omnipotent.

carver9

Back on topic. Beerus stomps.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

True Darkseid gets stomped by Beerus? How?

NemeBro

Because carver hates DC and likes DB.

ares834

Originally posted by MythLord
Which still wouldn't stop the actual war, as it's key factor is the struggle between GEB and Yahweh's Divine Hand.

It would stop the war between "heaven and hell" which is all the text notes. Ultimately, it doesn't state he could defeat the GEB that would be merely an interpretation. And considering the GEB is supposed to be God's equal, a flawed one.

Originally posted by MythLord
Nah. Yahweh uses the term Maker in a different context to himself than he does for Lucifer. For Lucifer, he's implying a creator of sorts; for himself it's a shaper and in this case that shaper is the dreams of his worshippers. And that in no way debunks the idea that he's omnipotent.

Uh, he is talking about "makers". That's what the conversation is about... How nothing can create itself, not even God. So, even if one were to foolishly dismiss God being created, we do have God claiming a limit to his power thus showing he is not omnipotent.