Based on the numbers you have provided, I calculated that the weight of your latest Buddy's clone pizza was 9.81 ounces (dough) + 8 ounces (brick cheese) + 3.8 ounces (pizza sauce) = 21.61 ounces. There was perhaps a small amount of oil in the dough also but I suspect it would be minor.

You indicated that the baked pizza weighed 568 grams. That is 20.04 ounces. That means that the losses during baking were 21.61-20.04 = 1.57 ounces, or 7.3%. Interestingly, when I was speculating what the losses might be for the Buddy's pizza that dicepackage wrote about, I used 7% as the loss figure. In dicepackage's case, his Buddy's pizza was a pepperoni pizza but I do not believe that there would have been any material losses in the weight of the pepperoni slices because they were beneath the cheese and captured there for the entire bake time. If you are able to get the Nutrition Facts for the thick Margherita pepperoni slices, that should help with the analysis of dicepackage's data.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks you for doing the calculations for baking weight losses in my recent attempt. 7.3% loss in weight doesn’t seem like a lot for a pizza that is baked that long.

It is interesting when you speculated what losses there were for dice package Buddy’s pizza you used 7% as the loss figure. You sure are good at estimating losses during baking.

I did ask for the Nutrition Facts for “Coarse Grind Pepperoni” sold under the brand name Margherita last evening.

Thanks you for doing the calculations for baking weight losses in my recent attempt. 7.3% loss in weight doesn’t seem like a lot for a pizza that is baked that long.

Norma,

I did wonder whether you forgot to tare the pizza screen while you were weighing the baked pizza on your scale but it seems to me that a pan with sides and with the cheese pressed tightly up against the sides does a better job of containing the pizza during baking and possibly limiting the weight losses.

I did wonder whether you forgot to tare the pizza screen while you were weighing the baked pizza on your scale but it seems to me that a pan with sides and with the cheese pressed tightly up against the sides does a better job of containing the pizza during baking and possibly limiting the weight losses.

Peter

I don’t think I forgot to tare the pizza screen and pan I used while weighing the bake pizza on my scale. I just weighed the pizza screen and pan I used and they weighed 14.9 ounces. That is almost a pound. The reason for using the screen and pan were so the bottom crust stayed crispy.

I would think a pizza in a pan would fare better in weigh loss, especially with all the cheese sealing up the crust. I will weigh my next baked attempt at market, but that might be a faster bake time and maybe wouldn’t be to good to compare the one that was done in my home oven.

Today, I decided to reread a good part of the Buddy's thread to see if I could come up with any forgotten information or leads or clues that might help you perfect your Buddy's clone pizzas. While I was at it, I decided to update Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, which contains just about everything I know or have found about the Buddy's dough and pizzas, to reflect the latest information we have on the Buddy's dough and pizzas. As you know, for my reverse engineering and cloning projects, I try to stay as close to the target product as possible, and to rely as much as possible on information that the target company puts out or information from current or former employees. Even then, information can sometimes turn out to be incorrect or inaccurate.

As an example of where I have seen confusion about the Buddy's pizza is the cheese that Buddy's uses. There has been a lot of speculation that Buddy's uses cheddar cheese and other cheese blends that might include cheddar as well as other cheeses. However, from all of my research, I have seen nothing that suggests that Buddy's is using anything other than brick cheese as its main pizza cheese. Buddy's itself has said that it uses brick cheese, on several occasions. Moreover, if you look at a typical Buddy's menu, such as the one at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf, you will note that two of the "Veggies & More" topping options for its square pizzas include Extra Cheese and Cheddar cheese. If the main cheese was cheddar cheese, why would you list Cheddar cheese as an option? If the main cheese were cheddar cheese, you would most likely list Extra Cheese and Brick Cheese.

On the matter of the dough making protocol that Buddy's may be using, I refer you to Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765. It's possible that over the years Buddy's may have change its dough making protocol, but what is reported in Reply 95 would reflect a workable way of making dough in batches so that orders can be filled throughout the day, even if the last of the dough may be a bit long in the tooth.

As I was rereading the Buddy's thread, I also found the post that first discussed the "double kneading" technique. That post is Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842. You will also note that in Reply 318 referenced above, a former employee of Buddy's (lufty) made the following statement that I excerpted from a post that he made at the Reddit website: The balls are weighed and placed in the pans loosely stretched and stacked up criss-cross to rise. A few hours later they are stretched out properly, using your thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge. I believe that statement reflects the "double stretching" technique, even more accurately than what I had been told by the Buddy's Conant employee. You will also note in the video you referenced at http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza, starting at 1:47, that the pizza maker discusses what appears to be the double kneading technique. Of course, in actual practice it may be necessary to press or punch the dough down a bit or else accomplish the same result by the way that the cheese and toppings are applied.

In Reply 318, I also excerpted another statement from lufty about the Buddy's pizza sauce, specifically, The sauce is tomato paste, water, and seasoning whisked together ahead of time. Elsewhere, we learned that Buddy's uses Stanislaus products. As is shown at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/nutrition-facts, Stanislaus has a Full Red Tomato Paste product. If lufty was loose with the term "paste", Stanislaus also offers basic "super heavy" products under the Saporito brand.

I also found another post by dicepackage, at Reply 287 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg125814.html#msg125814, that shows a typical Buddy's dough ball that he purchased. He noted that the dough ball felt very wet. However, that might have been because the dough had undergone an extended fermentation. Regrettably, dicepackage forgot to weigh the dough ball. So close but yet so far.

Today, I decided to reread a good part of the Buddy's thread to see if I could come up with any forgotten information or leads or clues that might help you perfect your Buddy's clone pizzas. While I was at it, I decided to update Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, which contains just about everything I know or have found about the Buddy's dough and pizzas, to reflect the latest information we have on the Buddy's dough and pizzas. As you know, for my reverse engineering and cloning projects, I try to stay as close to the target product as possible, and to rely as much as possible on information that the target company puts out or information from current or former employees. Even then, information can sometimes turn out to be incorrect or inaccurate.

As an example of where I have seen confusion about the Buddy's pizza is the cheese that Buddy's uses. There has been a lot of speculation that Buddy's uses cheddar cheese and other cheese blends that might include cheddar as well as other cheeses. However, from all of my research, I have seen nothing that suggests that Buddy's is using anything other than brick cheese as its main pizza cheese. Buddy's itself has said that it uses brick cheese, on several occasions. Moreover, if you look at a typical Buddy's menu, such as the one at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf, you will note that two of the "Veggies & More" topping options for its square pizzas include Extra Cheese and Cheddar cheese. If the main cheese was cheddar cheese, why would you list Cheddar cheese as an option? If the main cheese were cheddar cheese, you would most likely list Extra Cheese and Brick Cheese.

On the matter of the dough making protocol that Buddy's may be using, I refer you to Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765. It's possible that over the years Buddy's may have change its dough making protocol, but what is reported in Reply 95 would reflect a workable way of making dough in batches so that orders can be filled throughout the day, even if the last of the dough may be a bit long in the tooth.

As I was rereading the Buddy's thread, I also found the post that first discussed the "double kneading" technique. That post is Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842. You will also note that in Reply 318 referenced above, a former employee of Buddy's (lufty) made the following statement that I excerpted from a post that he made at the Reddit website: The balls are weighed and placed in the pans loosely stretched and stacked up criss-cross to rise. A few hours later they are stretched out properly, using your thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge. I believe that statement reflects the "double stretching" technique, even more accurately than what I had been told by the Buddy's Conant employee. You will also note in the video you referenced at http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza, starting at 1:47, that the pizza maker discusses what appears to be the double kneading technique. Of course, in actual practice it may be necessary to press or punch the dough down a bit or else accomplish the same result by the way that the cheese and toppings are applied.

In Reply 318, I also excerpted another statement from lufty about the Buddy's pizza sauce, specifically, The sauce is tomato paste, water, and seasoning whisked together ahead of time. Elsewhere, we learned that Buddy's uses Stanislaus products. As is shown at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/nutrition-facts, Stanislaus has a Full Red Tomato Paste product. If lufty was loose with the term "paste", Stanislaus also offers basic "super heavy" products under the Saporito brand.

I also found another post by dicepackage, at Reply 287 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg125814.html#msg125814, that shows a typical Buddy's dough ball that he purchased. He noted that the dough ball felt very wet. However, that might have been because the dough had undergone an extended fermentation. Regrettably, dicepackage forgot to weigh the dough ball. So close but yet so far.

Thanks so much for rereading Buddy’s long thread for leads or clues that might help me perfect my Buddy’s clone pizzas.

I do know for your reverse engineering and cloning projects, you try to stay as close to the target product as possible. I also know how precise you are. I know that even with finding a lot information about a pizza, some of that information can turn out to be incorrect or inaccurate.

I can understand the confusion about the cheese/or cheeses Buddy’s might use. I think only members that can really taste a Buddy’s cheese pizza can tell you if there is any other cheese other than brick cheese on Buddy’s pizza. I know when even a relatively small amount of cheddar is added to mozzarella it can give the pizza a different flavor profile. I would guess that would also apply to Buddy’s cheese pizzas. I see what you mean when you told me to note the options which include Extra Cheese and Cheddar cheese. I sure don’t think the main cheese would be cheddar, but do you think Buddy’s does use any cheddar with the brick cheese? You might be right that even cheddar as an option rules any cheddar is used. I sure don’t know how Buddy’s brick cheese tastes, but my Eddie’s brick cheese doesn’t have a lot of flavor. Maybe I could ask Foremost Farms for a sample of their brick cheese to find out how their brick cheese tastes. I could tell them I want to try and make some Detroit style pizzas. I do purchase Foremost Farms mozzarella loafs every week, so they might send me a sample. Do you think if I could obtain a sample of Foremost Farms brick cheese that might get us anywhere?

I looked at what you posted at Reply 5 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842 and just called the Conant St. location about ordering a partially baked frozen pie. The lady that I spoke to said yes Buddy’s does ship partially frozen pies, but they are very busy right now. The lady said she would talk to the manager and the manager will call me back. I asked how much the pizza would cost and she said the manager will figure that out from the town I live in. It sure would be interesting to get a real Buddy’s pizza, but you know how I feel about parbaked pizzas. Do you think a parbaked Buddy’s pizza would help at all with the cheese/or cheese blend and also with the sauce? I am familiar with Stanislaus products and do use the Saporito “super heavy” sauce. I also can get a sample of Full Red Tomato Paste from Stanislaus. Stanislaus was very helpful in sending me a sample before.

I see what was posted about the “double kneading” techniques from your links.

I must have missed that post by dicepackage at Reply 287. I wonder why Buddy’s told me they don’t sell dough balls. I can see in dicepackage’s that Buddy’s dough ball looked very wet. That sure was so close, but yet so far away in dicepackage not weighing the dough ball.

I did get a kick out of the post At Reply 281. I guess they felt sorry for some little old lady that was coming to Buddy’s to try out their pizza for the first time with her companions.

That sure was a great review of Buddy’s thread. I have a lot to think about. Hopefully it will all stay in my brain.

I went to my supplier today to pick up flour and while I was there I asked how much the bromated Occident flour costs. They told me a 25 lb. bag costs 8.55 and a 50 lb. bag is even cheaper. Until I try out the bromated Occident flour for a Buddy’s clone attempt I just purchased a smaller bag at our local Country Store. I might try the Occident flour this weekend.

I can see how there can be some Doubting Thomases on the matter of the cheese(s) used by Buddy's on its 4-square and 8-square pizzas. I have seen articles written by others that said that Buddy's was using cheese that was a "secret blend". See, for example, the quoted material in Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62915.html#msg62915. You will see a similar reference to the "secret blend" in the Eat Your World article that you recently referenced at http://eatyourworld.com/destinations/united_states/michigan/detroit/what_to_eat/square_pizza. To add to the mystery, when Buddy's revamped their website, they no longer talked about using brick cheese, Stanislaus tomatoes or double kneading. Later, after stating on their menus that they were using cheeses from Foremost Farms, they deleted references to that company. If you look at a typical Buddy's menu, such as the one at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf, you will see that Buddy's only uses the term "cheese". Unfortunately, I could no longer find a copy of the menu that preceded the replacement menu.

All of the above made me suspicious that Buddy's changed the ingredients and methods they used to make their square pizzas. To help get to the bottom of these matters, I had the following email exchanges with Buddy's in April, 2011:

Me: As one who pays attention to his diet, I have noted that the Nutrition page of your website has not been completed for some time. Can you please indicate when that section will be completed, or possibly send me that information if it is in a form that can be transmitted to me, possibly as an attachment? One area of specific interest is the type of cheese used on your square pizzas. I understand that the amounts of fat in cheeses can vary quite widely, as well as the salt and cholesterol content.

Buddy's: Thank you for taking the time to email us and for your inquiry. We use Wisconsin Brick cheese for our pizza. We have alternatives available at all of our locations: Fat Free Mozzarella & Lactose Free Veggie Soy Cheese. We additionally are offering at our Farmington Hills location, a casein free cheese. We are still working on our Nutrition page and it may take up to a year to complete.

Me: I have noticed a lot of changes at your website. I hope that you are still using much the same ingredients that have made your pizzas such a success. I have been seeing places change things like their sauces and now have a lot of chemicals in them that I find distasteful. I hope that you are still using the Stanislaus tomatoes that taste so fresh. I remember seeing the Stanislaus tomatoes mentioned at your website but no more.

Buddy's: We have not changed any of our core ingredients for sauces. Our website has changed to offer more information than we had before.

As I mentioned before, I cannot recall any instance in which Buddy's itself, or anyone on its behalf, said that Buddy's used a cheese "blend". If they are using a blend, that would be something of recent origin (after April, 2011). However, many of the posts in the Buddy's thread that debated the Buddy's cheese(s) were before April, 2011 and precede the current Buddy's menu by quite some time.

With respect to your assessment of the Eddie's brick cheese, I can only tell you that PizzaHog observed in the Buddy's thread that there are apparently different brick products, apparently including some brick cheeses that are not made in Wisconsin. When I looked at the photos that you provided on the Eddie's cheese, I did not see any made in Wisconsin statement or logo.

If you can get a sample of the Foremost Farms brick cheese, that might be helpful since we know at least at one time Buddy's used their brick cheese. For all we know, they may still be doing so. You will also recall that the fat content of the brick cheese that Buddy's reported to you recently is the same as what appears in Foremost Farms specs for their brick cheese.

Ordering a Buddy's pizza, especially if you do that after sampling the Foremost Farms brick cheese, would be instructive in my opinion.

Our dough is made from scratch daily in each of our kitchens. We use only premium grade flour in our dough's secret recipe. Carefully double kneading the dough and allowing it to rise for 1 to 1-1/2 hours helps to create Buddy's famous crunchy crust. We use almost one pound of cheese on our large, 8-square pizzas. This brick cheese is made especially for Buddy's in Wisconsin and is shredded by hand for the perfect melt. Our produce is received fresh daily and all of our vegetable toppings are hand sliced. We use Margherita brand pepperoni - a lean, high-quality, more flavorful, course-ground sausage. We place it under the cheese to prevent charring from the high baking heat. Our pizza sauce is made with a blend of Stanislaus premium tomato products, herbs and spices (our own little secret for more than 50 years.) All of Buddy's Black Steel pizza pans have to be specially seasoned. Some have been around for more than 50 years.

I haven’t thought of using the Wayback Machine to see if I can find out more about Buddy’s, but maybe I will. Did you search all though the Wayback Machine to see what you kind find out about Buddy’s pizza?

I did not do any Wayback searches since I had done a fair amount of research as the Buddy's thread evolved.

Do you think Buddy's is hiding something about the cheese they are using on their square pizzas and that they are really using a "secret blend"?

Peter

Peter,

You have a ‘memory like an elephant’. I sure don’t know how you can memorized all that information by heart. Yep, Bob Jacobs did have hair back then.

I have no idea if Buddy’s is hiding something about the cheese they are using on their square pizzas and if they might really use a “secret blend”. The only way I might know that information is if try to get a sample of the Foremost Farms brick cheese and also order a parbaked pizza from Buddy’s. Only then would I be able could compare how the Foremost Farms brick cheese tastes alone when baked on a Buddy‘s clone, in comparison to a Buddy’s cheese pizza.

That is unless you figure out a out another way to get the information about the cheese/or cheese blend.

I just went to the Foremost Farms website and downloaded this PDF, (then scanned it) about Foremost Farms Brick Cheese. It says it tastes mild to piquant. I wonder if that means the more it is aged it tastes different. Maybe we are going to have the same problems as the Mack’s thread. I would say the Eddie’s Brick Cheese is mild tasting, when eating it plain, or baked on a Buddy’s clone attempt.

I did send Foremost Farms an email about their brick cheese and asked the question if their brick cheese changes in flavor profile as it ages. I also noted on the Foremost Farms website that the brick cheese (under the quality American style varieties) only come in 40-pound blocks). That could be a problem in trying to get a sample. http://foremostfarms.com/Commercial/Cheese/Quality-American-Style.php

I will wait to see if I get a reply from Foremost Farms. I did try to send more questions, but the contact feature only allows you to use 500 characters. I might also call Foremost Farms during their regular business hours. I did say in what I wrote, that I was trying to make a Detroit style pizza.

I also wrote Mandi Cheese Shop and also asked them if their Eddie’s brick cheese changes in flavor profile as it ages and also if their Eddie’s brick cheese is made in Wisconsin. I really don’t think their Eddie’s brick cheese is made in Wisconsin, but wanted clarification on that. Mandi Foods, Inc is a food broker though.

Buddy’s didn’t call me back about purchasing a parbaked pizza, but that might be a good thing, so I can think over this whole thing about how brick cheese might taste. If Buddy’s does call me back, at least I can find out how much it costs for a cheese pizza and shipping.

I see under brick cheese at Wikipedia that brick cheese can change in flavor as it ripens.

Brick cheese is a cheese from Wisconsin, USA, made in brick-shaped form. The color ranges from pale yellow to white, and the cheese has a sweet and mild flavor when young, and matures into a strong ripe cheese with age. It is medium-soft, crumbles easily and is somewhat sticky to the knife.

Origins of brick cheese:

Brick cheese was originally produced in Wisconsin. The cheese making process was derived from white American Cheddar that is cultured at a slightly higher temperature which results in a marginally higher fat content and a slightly altered protein structure. The resultant "brick cheese" has a slightly softer taste and a distinctly sharper finish.

Regulations & FDA Codes

The US Code of Food Regulations defines what the fat and moisture content of brick cheese must be. This Standard of Identity does not take into account that brick cheese should be surface ripened with B. linens. Brick is an American cheese, made in rectangular loaves, that was first produced in Wisconsin in 1877 by John Jossi, a cheese maker of Swiss descent. The loaf-shaped cheese displays numerous fine holes when it is sliced. When young, it is sweet and mild; after aging, it tastes somewhat like a mild Limburger or cheddar, and has been compared to a Danish Tilsit.Corynebacterium and Arthrobacter are the necessary bacterial genera for smear cheese ripening. B. linens, while present in many smear cultures, is not typical. All cheeses, regardless of variety, should be well wrapped and kept in the warmest section of the refrigerator. (The refrigerator door is often one of the warmest spots).

I wasn’t going to make another Buddy’s clone attempt today, but the bag of bromated Occident flour was calling to me to try it out.

I mixed a little bit differently this time and mixed the Kosher salt in with the water in the mixer bowl. I did use the flat beater again (only because I am not making enough dough to try and use the dough hook). I mixed on speeds one and two on my mixer and guess since this is a lower protein flour that is why the dough turned out almost like a batter. I then took my spatula and did more mixing. The final dough temperature was 83.7 degrees F. The weight of the dough ball was 274 grams. The dough ball was put into the pan at 4:33 PM. Since I want to try and speed up this attempt, I turned my oven light on and am tempering the dough in the oven. After 15 minutes in the oven I spread the dough out to the edges most of the way. I will wait and see how long this dough in the takes to rise in the oven. I guess I will have to do a punch down on the dough and let it rise again though.

I am still looking at pictures of Buddy’s pizzas to see if I can see how thick they might be.

This article shows some of Buddy’s Motor City Pizzas back in 2011. http://www.detroitmoxie.com/home/2011/6/24/my-first-food-love-buddys-pizza-announces-new-pies.html I don’t think those pies look very thick.

Norma

You might check out this radio interview with Wes Pikula of Buddy's: http://www.pizzaradio.com/podcasts/ask042908.mp3. The impression I got from the interview is that the specialty pizzas with the multi-cheese blends are thinner than the regular Buddy's square pizzas.

You might check out this radio interview with Wes Pikula of Buddy's: http://www.pizzaradio.com/podcasts/ask042908.mp3. The impression I got from the interview is that the specialty pizzas with the multi-cheese blends are thinner than the regular Buddy's square pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the link to the radio interview with Wes Pikula of Buddy's! I will listen to it.

I took the temperature in the oven (where the dough was tempering in the steel pan) and it was 95.8 degrees F (that was with the oven light on). I was trying to get the dough to proof in 2 hrs. (with the punch down) and it did seem to work well. The dough was nice and bubbly both times and smelled really good.

I used 8 ounces of the Eddie’s brick cheese again and 4.7 ounces of November’s sauce combined with market sauce. There would have been enough of November’s sauce leftover, but I accidently hit the container with the sauce in the fridge and the sauce container flipped and then the lid came off. I had a mess in my fridge and even some of the sauce hit my shoes. That is why I had to add some of the market sauce. The oven was set right under 500 degrees F and the pizza was baked on the bottom rack. The pizza took about 14 minutes to bake. I don’t know where my brain was, but it took me 3 1/2 minutes to weigh the baked pizza. It weighed 1 lb. 4.5 oz., or when I changed the scale to grams it weighed 581 grams. There was a little cheese that dripped in the steel pan that wasn’t weighed. I only used the screen to weigh the pie this time and I made sure I did tare that out and also the mixing bowl it was sitting on.

I don’t know why the rim crust got higher this time. I don’t know if it was from the flour, or how I tempered the dough in the oven, or something else, but it can be seen on the ruler the side crust did get higher.

The Buddy’s clone attempt came out of the oven at 6:55 PM.

The crumb on this pizza was the best yet, in that it was nice and airy and very tender to eat. I sure don’t know why that was either.

I am happier in this Buddy’s attempt then other ones, but sure don’t know what I did that was so different. Since this was such a very fast pizza from beginning to end, I wouldn’t have thought the taste would be that good. I am glad the bromated Occident flour was calling for me to try it today. Now if I can only repeat what I did.

I did really do something stupid in trying to document this process today though. When I put my memory stick in the computer (from the first few pictures) I forgot to take it out and the pictures of the dough tempering are just on my camera and not on my memory stick. When I went to take the picture of the cheese and sauce on the pizza, before the bake, that is when my camera said no memory left. That is when I realized that the memory stick was still in my computer from the other pictures I took of how the dough looked before tempering more. I have no idea where the cord is for my camera and don’t think it even works anymore.

I did enjoyed the radio interview with Wes Pikula very much that you posted at Reply 139 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221274.html#msg221274 Did you know that Buddy’s changed over to trans fat free oil? I wonder what kind of oil that is. I listened over and over, but couldn’t hear what Wes said when he stated how much Buddy’s pays for a 50 lb. bag of flour. I just had my hearing checked a few months ago and the ear/nose/throat specialist said my was hearing was like a teenager, so I don’t know why I could not catch that. Did you catch what he said about the flour price?

I also heard Wes say that the specialty pizzas are thinner and they also apply less cheese on them, but the cheese blends do give a better taste on the pizzas. I guess that solves the mystery about why the different specialty pizzas look thinner. At least that is one thing I don’t have to wonder about.

Norma

Edit: Never mind the flour price question, I listened some more without backround noises, and I hear Wes say they went from 8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag up to something in the low thirties. 8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag of flour sure was cheap.

I don’t know why the rim crust got higher this time. I don’t know if it was from the flour, or how I tempered the dough in the oven, or something else, but it can be seen on the ruler the side crust did get higher.

Norma,

It looks like you are making good progress.

Since you changed two major variables at one time, it is hard to say which one was primarily responsible for the results you achieved. It could have been the flour because of its lower protein content and tendency to produce a softer crust, or it might have been the use of your oven to proof the dough and cause it to rise faster, or it might have been a combination of both changes. You would have to drop one of the variables and repeat the experiment to see if that provides the answer. Even then, you might have to do further testing to try to replicate the results to confirm them.

I am glad that you were able to get the desired results using about 70% hydration. When I was rereading the Buddy's thread, I saw that a hydration of about 75% was getting good results among the members. It could well be that the combination of using the lower protein bromated Occident flour and the oven to proof the dough at a higher temperature produced the more open and airy dough without having to resort to a higher hydration. It might be a good idea at some point to do further testing along the lines mentioned above to see how the dough formulation and processing methods might work at market where you may not have something equivalent to your home oven to proof the dough. At some point, you might also want to try using a lower bake temperature, maybe along the lines that Buddy's pizza uses, to see if you can replicate their pizzas using the lower bake temperature.

I did enjoyed the radio interview with Wes Pikula very much that you posted at Reply 139 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221274.html#msg221274 Did you know that Buddy’s changed over to trans fat free oil? I wonder what kind of oil that is. I listened over and over, but couldn’t hear what Wes said when he stated how much Buddy’s pays for a 50 lb. bag of flour. I just had my hearing checked a few months ago and the ear/nose/throat specialist said my was hearing was like a teenager, so I don’t know why I could not catch that. Did you catch what he said about the flour price? Edit: Never mind the flour price question, I listened some more without backround noises, and I hear Wes say they went from 8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag up to something in the low thirties. 8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag of flour sure was cheap.

Norma,

FYI, I found the radio interview with Wes Pikula by conducting a Google search using his name. Using a person's name for search purposes often turns up good articles or other material where the person is quoted. Those materials frequently describe the company the person works for and its products and methods. Vendors of equipment and other items used by the company especially like to promote their products through articles like that.

The trans fat issue mentioned in the video is with respect to hydrogenated solid fats that Buddy's apparently was using to fry things before they saw the writing on the wall that trans fats were going to be banned in some places. Buddy's did not use those solid fats in relation to their pizzas. Canola oil is mentioned in the video. It is not a solid fat and has no trans fats. I was told some time ago that the Auburn Hills Buddy's location I called was using soybean oil in some form for oiling their square pans (see Reply 137 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136786/topicseen.html#msg136786). Another member (Grilled Pizza) reported at Reply 251 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg104178/topicseen.html#msg104178 that the Warren Buddy's location was using canola oil. So, maybe the different Buddy's locations have the option of using different oils. I believe that the old Crisco is an example of a solid fat that had trans fats. That product has been reformulated to significantly reduce or eliminate the trans fats. Some of our members have reported that they use Crisco or an equivalent vegetable shortening to grease their pans but Buddy's does not do so.

I heard the same price that you heard for the flour that Wes Pikula mentioned in the video. Apparently, Buddy's has enough volume to get the flour by the truckload.