Hi, We are currently on a 8 Hr shift, I Like the 8 Hour shift for a lot of reasons, I know alot of people on 12's Some Like them Some Don't, I Don' Like them just wondering what you guys thought since some of the guys in our Dept want to go to them and we will be voting soon.

We are a busy Dept in the Summer and Slow in the Winter, I just know that time will either drag or you will be over loaded with work plus 12 on the desk will be rough.

jnc36rcpd

03-26-2011, 17:42

We tried them a couple of years back, but went back to 8.5 hour shifts. Most people did not care for them. In addition to the twelve hours, you have to factor in such issues as court and travel time.

I noticed that the people who really liked them usually lived some distance from the station and did not make many criminal arrests.

DaBigBR

03-26-2011, 17:42

I think there are two keys to 12 hour shifts:

1) You need to have a rotation that works. The "Pittman" schedule or a fixed 3/4 or 4/4 schedule would be my preference.;

2) You need to have the right amount of call volume. If your department runs balls to the wall constantly, the longer shifts and potential to have paperwork OT will kill you. If your department is slow for long periods of time, the boredom will kill you.

I have worked twelves in a three on / four off schedule for almost five years now. We are not a busy department by anybody's standards. When I was a supervisor and more involved in training, I loved it because I could get a few hours of office work in reviewing reports, doing research, developing training materials, etc. and still get several hours of patrol. Now that I'm a slick-sleeve again I find myself getting bored and watching the clock tick away more.

Vigilant

03-26-2011, 17:57

I think it's a little easier for LE on the street than it is inside the fence. Time takes on a whole different dimension inside the halls of shame.

That said, the time off is great. Fewer commutes to and from work as well. It seems to work better for young folks for some reason. Our Custody people work 12.25 shifts on the Panama Schedule, for the most part.

Panzergrenadier1979

03-26-2011, 18:52

I work 12s and I love them. I have so much time off that I feel like a part-timer. :supergrin:

Coming into LE from having worked in the family business since I was 13, working a 12 hour shift is like getting to go home early every day.

CAcop

03-26-2011, 18:52

I like 8s for days and swings isn't too bad but graves sucks because you only get one full day off. 8s are also nice so that if you get off on time you have plenty of time to go to the gym, hang out with family, etc. 8s suck thought if you have a job where there is a ton of OT at the end of the day because going home time is during the busy time. When we were short a year ago the city wanted us to work 8s but I knew if we ended days at 3 and swings started at 3 we were going to get boned on days.

I once worked 12s before I started at my PD. They sucked because I had at least a 30 minute commute to work. With traffic it was closer to an hour. I pretty much had no life when I worked. Time off was cool but like 8s your PD better have a good overlap. My wife is in nursing school and doing 12.5 hour shifts that turn into 13 hour shifts fast. Throw in a 1 to 1.25 hour commute and I see her for a less than 2 hours a day and most of that is with her getting ready for bed or work. Now she has a lot of time off but on those days she is working she is MIA.

Right now at our PD we have a guy who is trying to pitch 11 hour shift where it works like the Pittman with 4on/4off, 3on/4off. The only difference is we have to work a couple of training days a year to make up the time. The theory is that we wil have 4 shifts in stead of our usual 3 on the 4/10 plan. It sounds okay but if the city understaffs the shift bridging days and swings it is going to suck to be days. 11 hour days will turn into 13 hour days fast since we go call to call to call days from 1100 on.

mrsurfboard

03-26-2011, 19:09

We've been on them for 5 years now. Time off is great, however it's a long shift. When we first started we worked steady shifts based on seniority and it wasn't bad, then a few junior sgts cried and the chief changed us to 6 week rotations. I basically hate them now, always tired and don't feel like doing anything when I'm at work. I would go back to 8.5 hour days in a heartbeat now. Funny how the bosses in their ivory towers making and changing schedules, never have to work them.

Goldstar225

03-26-2011, 19:14

We went to 12's about 21 months ago. On the initial vote just slightly over half the people in patrol voted in favor of it. After six months another vote was taken with 75% in favor. The three day weekend every other week is nice. Court appearances in the middle of a two day night shift sucks.

One big benefit is that everyone works together every day and as a team, have the days off together.

razdog76

03-26-2011, 19:55

Another factor is when the shifts start and stop. If you are working nights (1900-0700), and you need to file charges then waiting for 0800 to come sucks. If you are the early car and get off at 0600 it really sucks. Waiting around for court at 1000, and then having to report back at 1900 sucks. Trying to spend time with the family essentially means you will be taking a flight from New york to Hawaii every two days which did nothing positive for my health.

Now that I am working days, I like it. If we go back to 8's, in order to see my kids I have to have weekends off, which means I will have to go to afternoons. Going to afternoons means I will only see my girlfriend (a teacher) when I am on vacation, or on a personal day.:steamed:

Another issue that may become a factor is staffing. If your agency runs as short as we do, then if somebody needs to be ordered over then you will only be able to hold them for 4 hours... then what to do for the next 8 hours?

packsaddle

03-26-2011, 21:17

All I have worked so far is the four 10's shift. I like the schedule.

nikerret

03-26-2011, 21:24

The only 12's I work are attached to 8's. 8's on midnights really screws you on days off (which we rarely get our two).

At my first Dept, we worked four tens. I preferred it very much over the 5(+) 8(+)'s.

MeefZah

03-26-2011, 21:29

I'd about kill a mother ****er to get 12's, or even 10's. I'd save a fortune in gas money, not to mention the extra time off.

Ajon412

03-26-2011, 22:12

This was discussed a few months back. You might find this helpful......:wavey:

12 hours shifts are the best. Ive worked 12's, 10's, and 8's. 8's are horrible because you have to burn so much vacation time to get a few days off. The days you work you cant spend much time with the family but when you get 4 days off in a row without spending vacation its worth it to me.

TSAX

03-27-2011, 03:08

This was discussed a few months back. You might find this helpful......:wavey:

I prefer 8's or maybe 10's if it was strictly four days a week. The reason for that is I have a life outside of work that demands attention in the evenings at least two days a week, sometimes more. I think if we went to 10's at four days a week it would help those out who have to drive a distance to get to work, but looking at it realistically, there is really no good way to change it all up to work everyone on a ten hour schedule, unless there is someone who is not dealing with the general public and not having to relieve anyone within the fence.

actionshooter10

03-27-2011, 06:29

We work 12's on the Pittman schedule and I love it.

We're also busy in the summer and slow in the winter but it's still worth it. Winter time is where all schools, vacations, ect are scheduled.

We do get overloaded with paper at times but our admin is supportive and has no problem with us staying in the first or last 2 hours/shift and working paper as long as we answer our calls.

It would suck without a supportive admin.

Morris

03-27-2011, 07:01

We are on a 12 hour, 3 on/3 off, rotate days to nights and vice versa every four months (supposedly to keep us fresh and not stagnant to a particular time of day . . . ).

I am not the biggest fan. Case in point: last Tuesday, had a huge caper at the 10th hour of the shift. By the time I was done with my part, I had worked 16 hours straight. Went home, had 9 hours off, slept 3 (have a family life) and came back to do DT training for three hours.

The majority of patrol likes the 12s. But after 1800 and you are still dealing with a shytebird burglar, the fun meter is definitely not pegged and falling asleep on the way home is not fun.

Ajon412

03-27-2011, 09:40

Thanks for the link :wavey:

:50cal:

Anytime......and + 1 for the Pitman Schedule. Best chart I ever worked...

scottydl

03-27-2011, 11:32

Last department I worked for had the most awesome 10-hour setup EVER. Rotating days off which a lot of people don't like the idea of doing (if they've never done it before) but it benefited everyone. The 10-hour arrangement was set up into 8-day "weeks" that repeated every 56 days. Schedule went like this:

(1) 5 days on, 3 days off (for four 8-day weeks)
(2) 4 days on, 4 days off (for three 8-day weeks)
(3) Repeat.

So you are always guaranteed 3 regular days off, and quite often get 4 regular days off. You want 5 days off, just combine it with a 4-day weekend and you only have to burn 10 hours of vacation. Every officer in the entire department gets at least 1 full weekend off every month, sometimes more. Three overlapping patrol shifts (8a-5p, 4p-2a, 10p-8a) that cover the peak hours perfectly. If you have to hold over or come in early to cover a patrol shortage, it's only for HALF (5 hours) of the other shift - so you will never work more than 15 hours, unless it's a voluntary overtime detail.

Best setup I've ever experienced, wish I still had it.

JohnnyReb

03-27-2011, 12:15

We are looking into 12s at my jail, but I have some reservations about it. 12.5 hrs is a long time to be locked up with turds, and we don't have any kind of breaking system at my work. You are working from the second you step in, until you leave. I think it would get very mentally exhausting.

The only 12hr shift im interested in is the pittman, and thats because you never work more then 3 days in a row, and you get a 3 day weekend every over week.

Right now, our 8hr shift blows. We work 4 days, off two, 4 evenings, off two, then back to days, then evenings...every 3 months, there is one month of midnights. With this rotation, I see a "real weekend" every 6 weeks.

Right now, I'd just love to have a permement shift. I don't care if its 5 on 2 off, with tuesday and wednesday off. At least I wouldnt roatate and I could plan things without trying to work it out on an calander every time I want to do something.

I'm quite sick of the constant back and forth between shifts every week.

scottydl

03-27-2011, 12:28

We are looking into 12s at my jail, but I have some reservations about it. 12.5 hrs is a long time to be locked up with turds, and we don't have any kind of breaking system at my work. You are working from the second you step in, until you leave. I think it would get very mentally exhausting.

x2, this is the dangerous side of 12-hour shifts for street cops too. Anyone willing to bet you are less alert and officer safety (including self safety) may be lacking around hour 11.5? I think 10-hour shifts are the perfect compromise.

Gordon Graham (retired CHP, law enforcement risk management speaker, excellent guy) has said that CA agencies are big on 3x12's weekly schedules, but Graham has stats that show officers are more at risk working those longer hours. He proposes 14-hour shifts, 3 days a week. WHAT?! you might say, but wait there's more. During that 14 hours, you work 6... take a 2-hour break to refresh and recharge, for eating/workout/sleeping or whatever you want to do... then work another 6. You get 4 fixed days off every week. Not a bad idea, although I'm not sure if any departments have actually started doing that yet.

ateamer

03-27-2011, 12:45

Good luck on 14s. Who has enough staffing and little enough activity that anyone can take two hours off in the middle of the shift? It's hard enough to get off on time at end of watch.

JohnnyReb

03-27-2011, 13:11

Good luck on 14s. Who has enough staffing and little enough activity that anyone can take two hours off in the middle of the shift? It's hard enough to get off on time at end of watch.

+1 I can't see how that would work in the real world.

CAcop

03-27-2011, 13:36

The only way 14 hour shifts would work is if people came in every 2 hours, maybe every 6 hours. Basically individual officers, or shifts if your department is big enough, trickling in all day long.

It could work but it would take a big change in mentality at the department from the top to bottom. Kind of how our fire guys went from 24 to 48 hour shifts and their management hated it and made the rank and file miserable.

Reyn

03-27-2011, 13:44

I like 12s. The most you work is 3 days in a row and get every other weekend off. Plus the short week you can take two days off and be off a week.

With 8s we had to work 6 on 2 off and didnt get a weekend but once every 6 weeks.

txleapd

03-27-2011, 13:50

Our patrol shifts are 10 hours, which I think are perfect. Every "weekend" is three days off, although if you work a late evening or night shift that 1st day off can be pretty rough.

A buddy of mine, who I served in the Corps with, works 12's. They alternate working 3 on-4 off, and 4 on-3 off. I see the benefit as having plenty of time away from work, but the down side, IMHO, is that you are getting set up for some major fatigue on the days you are working.

Even working 4/10's there are times when you get late calls 2 or 3 days in a row. More than once I remember the bottom falling out, and working 14-18 hour days in a row. I was "lucky" enough to be an AI, back when we also diagramed homicide and OIS scenes, and getting my butt handed to me because I was lucky to get 4 hours of sleep before I had to be back to work. I've worked 20 hour days more than once or twice.

I could see 12 hour shifts increasing the frequency and possibility of this happening, and being completely useless due to exhaustion. I see that as a safety issue. Even driving can be dangerous at that point.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong....

Vigilant

03-27-2011, 14:01

I think 10-hour days are about the best of the best.

boomhower

03-27-2011, 14:07

We work 12's on the Pittman and I love the schedule but our rotation sucks. We rotate days to nights every set of days. I don't care to work days and I don't care to work night but I hate working both in the same week every week. Your body never gets adjusted and doesn't know whether your supposed to be asleep or awake. Hopefully it will get changed some day. Personally I would prefer rotating every two weeks.

PROSOUTH

03-27-2011, 14:09

I've been on this system for about 6 years now and we like the 12s. The most you work is 3 days in a row and get every other weekend off. We rotated only once every year prior to this year and now we have started bidding for nights or days again because the senior officers were complaining.

The short week you can take two days off and be off a week. We have one day out of the two week roll that we only work 8 hrs to maintain an 80 hr pay period. I take mine every Sunday of the week end shift week. You can also roll your four to the short two day week and take the two days off and only burn 20 hours. The good part part of this is we usually have a full crew on the week end we work.

The up side to this is the Jr officers have a three day week end every other week not like my younger days when the only way you gat a week end off was to lay out and take the chewing for doing so. We never had supervisors work week ends prior to the 12's, now the whole crew works together and this I do believe is a better thing for the department.

This job is hard enough on a family without a schedule where Daddy works every week end and maybe nights too. At least every other week end offsets nights a little, but both are about un-bearable on a young officer; I still remember..............

razdog76

03-27-2011, 14:21

I think 10-hour days are about the best of the best.

I agree, regular days off and the crisis created when you have staffing issues, I think the tens are better.

Morris

03-27-2011, 17:53

I think 10-hour days are about the best of the best.

I wish we had them. Our dets, traffic and K-9 have them. But management says that the 12s are easier to schedule for.

jedi573

03-27-2011, 18:03

We went to twelves here a few years back.

Our schedule is two on, two off, three on (third day is a short day), two off, two on, three off.

Every other weekend off; a repeating two-week schedule.

We have four shifts staggered throughout the twenty-four hour block.

The upside is that the most you work is three days in a row.

The downside is that a twelve-hour shift really means a twelve-hour minimum. I'm stuck late almost every day that I work. It's really a thirteen- or fourteen-hour day.

The downside is that any shift except day shift is rough on family life. If you have court during the day, working that night is dangerous as far as fatigue goes. Fatigue on its own is an issue without even having court. A robbery-in-progress after you've been working eleven hours is something to think about.

Another upside is that, on one of the two weeks, you can get a week off by burning twenty-four hours of time.

So really, depending on what schedule you pick within the eight-, ten-, or twelve-hour system, it's whether you get burned out more quickly by (a) more days of work in a row, or (b) more hours in a single day.

Andy

CAcop

03-27-2011, 18:39

So really, depending on what schedule you pick within the eight-, ten-, or twelve-hour system, it's whether you get burned out more quickly by (a) more days of work in a row, or (b) more hours in a single day.

Andy

That is the essence of what shift is best.

volsbear

03-27-2011, 20:59

My brother works 7 straight days in a row, 12 hour shifts (days) and then has 7 straight days off in a row. Then he comes back and works 7 straight days in a row, 12 hour night shifts, and then has 7 straight days off again.

bccop

03-27-2011, 21:47

We mainly work 11 and 12 hour shifts and I prefer them over my previous job which had 8 hour shifts. I like the extra days off and the fact I make the commute to work fewer times. We work 4 on 4 off.

We have a permanent early day shift (Alpha shift) that works 0430-1545 (11 1/4 hours). The rest of us rotate through the remaining shifts. The first week we'll work bravo, followed by charlie, next week delta, next week echo, and then back to bravo. Start of shift is in our briefing room for a 15 minutes.

We end up owing 32 hours a year which we make up with 4 training days (8 hour shifts) spread throughout the year. There is talk of making one more shift a 12 hour as well and then we wouldn't have to come in for days off to do training... it would be done on regular working days (likely during delta shifts because charlie and echo can cover the call load). The nice thing about having our overlapping shifts is it's pretty rare to get a late call. Even if you end up getting one, usually a later shift car will swing by and offer to take over the call.

Our call signs are based on district, shift, and car number. Last week I was 2C11.

CAcop

03-27-2011, 22:03

My brother works 7 straight days in a row, 12 hour shifts (days) and then has 7 straight days off in a row. Then he comes back and works 7 straight days in a row, 12 hour night shifts, and then has 7 straight days off again.

Holy ****! Is that a cop shop or something else?

If I had that I would tell my wife to move wherever she would be happiest living alone and then I would rent a room or shack in town during my week on. Then I would drive or fly to wherever she lived. One of our guys lives in UT and commutes weekly to work. Before that we had a guy do it to NV.

Agent6-3/8

03-27-2011, 22:34

I've never worked a placed that worked 12's, but to me, they make a lot of sense. The extra days off are especially nice. 8's are too short, IMO. If its busy or you really get into anything you're screwed and stuck over.

I used to work at a place that had 8 hour shifts and a "step down" schedule. Without a doubt, its the most insanely idiotic system ever. After your two days off you return to work on a mid-0800. Next comes a 2000 to 0400, then 1600-2400 x2 (usually), and finally a 0800 to 1600 before your days off again. Now, lets add in the fact that your 8 hour shift was never 8 hours, court and the seemingly constant extra details. It made for a miserable, exhausted existance. Personally, I always though the amount of fatigue this schedule caused was dangerous. All the disadvantages of both 8 and 12 hour shifts with the benefits of neither.

BPD

03-28-2011, 02:40

I work 8's....not by choice. However the way my rotation works, I have every other 4 day week end, which is very nice.

10 on 4 off
E/O Sat., Sun., Mon., and Tue., off.

razdog76

03-28-2011, 07:46

12's look great on paper, but as many have indicated it can be exhausting, especially if working nights.

Commercial drivers can only drive for 11, and we must drive priority, deploy weapons, and make decisions necessitating a clear head. I think this would be much less exhausting if we could hang out at the station until called.:whistling:

CBennett

03-28-2011, 08:19

Hi, We are currently on a 8 Hr shift, I Like the 8 Hour shift for a lot of reasons, I know alot of people on 12's Some Like them Some Don't, I Don' Like them just wondering what you guys thought since some of the guys in our Dept want to go to them and we will be voting soon.

We are a busy Dept in the Summer and Slow in the Winter, I just know that time will either drag or you will be over loaded with work plus 12 on the desk will be rough.

Ive done both I would not even(unless it was one of those go to 12's or lose your job type of deals) go back to 12's. sure you may get a extra day off but the time after your shift is done is shot..for someone like me that tried to get/stay involved with my kids sports by helping to coach..id have to completely stop that cause the 12 hour shift would put me still at work when id normally be home eating supper and or then coaching/helping out with games or practices. The extra day off was "ok" but didnt really do anything for me I actually like my time after work(in my case if im working day shift 4pm-9pm) to be mine not taken up by work then being to tired to do anything but go to sleep to get ready for more work.

IMO in LE if your on a 12 hour shift(and we all know its more than 12 hrs) the only thing you have time to do on your work days is work and sleep then get back up and go to work and then sleep..the stuff people do inbetween..like play with kids....help with baseball/football/hockey practices/coaching, take family out to dinner...just anything you do after work pretty much is non existent on 12's...now if your a young non married guy and only really worried about yourself then they are GREAT...if your married and have a family you like to do things with it sucks.

CBennett

03-28-2011, 08:29

12's look great on paper, but as many have indicated it can be exhausting, especially if working nights.

Commercial drivers can only drive for 11, and we must drive priority, deploy weapons, and make decisions necessitating a clear head. I think this would be much less exhausting if we could hang out at the station until called.:whistling:

yup when we did 12's it was either(it switched a few times when people started complaining then stopped when about 7 people in a week finally just quit) 12 midnight-12noon or vice versa OR 6am-6pm or vice versa...if you really tried to get 7-8 hours sleep that left a whopping 1-2 hours before or after shift for "your time" and it was always bad times lol...wife is at work and kid in school at 1PM when you get home and you sleep till 10 PM when wife is going back to bed and kid has been in bed a hour or more...whoo hoo! the times you were off just always seemed to suck and be times only YOU could get something done...everyone else was either sleeping,at work or school....

Milltown

03-28-2011, 08:52

Or facility works 12's, four on four off. Days stays on day and night stay on nights. Seems to work pretty good going from the schedule they had, before I started working there.

Agent6-3/8

03-28-2011, 09:06

12's look great on paper, but as many have indicated it can be exhausting, especially if working nights.

Commercial drivers can only drive for 11, and we must drive priority, deploy weapons, and make decisions necessitating a clear head. I think this would be much less exhausting if we could hang out at the station until called.:whistling:

This is a universal problem, IMO. In a job where we must be sharp at all times, many of us are zombies. (especially the night shift guys) Running around on 4 or 5 hours of sleep can be done for a while, but in the long term, its not safe, or healthy. (physically or mentally)

IMO in LE if your on a 12 hour shift(and we all know its more than 12 hrs) the only thing you have time to do on your work days is work and sleep then get back up and go to work and then sleep..the stuff people do inbetween..like play with kids....help with baseball/football/hockey practices/coaching, take family out to dinner...just anything you do after work pretty much is non existent on 12's...now if your a young non married guy and only really worried about yourself then they are GREAT...if your married and have a family you like to do things with it sucks.

How is court scheduled in your area? One of my biggest complaints with 8's as a young officer is that more likely than not I'm going to have to come in for court on my days off. For me, that meant a 60 mile round trip, + the time spent in the courthouse. By the time it was done, my day off was shot in the ass. (and my department didn't pay a dime for any of it) Forget about a Fri., Sat., or Sun. off. Only the admin and people that have been around forever get to work banker's hours.

I agree about not having time for anything but sleep and work on 12's. With our stepdown schedule it was like that even on 8's, because you rarely had more than 12 hours between shifts. (and sometimes only 8) After my experiences the appeal of 12's is that I can at least plan on having a true weekend every so often.

scottydl

03-28-2011, 12:15

I'm going to have to come in for court on my days off. For me, that meant a 60 mile round trip, + the time spent in the courthouse. By the time it was done, my day off was shot in the ass. (and my department didn't pay a dime for any of it)

We have both the 12 hour and 10 hour shifts with a certain amount of overlap. The 12 hour shifts are our main watches, with the 10 hour shifts being a mid-watch. The 12 hour shifts are more popular. Unlike many Departments we have no set pattern to days off. Once a month, we submit a "days off request" and we bid for the days off we want. You can pretty much arrange the days off you want within reason. I have seen guys work a long stretch, then take off a long stretch. It all depends on what the officers have going on that month. If you want to take a mini-vacation, you might work a 7 or 8 day stretch then ask for 7 or 8 days off in a row.

Each month, every watch commander will gather up all the days off requests then balance the watch. When there are conflicts, the days off are granted based on seniority and also certain needs or hardships. For example, if you are going out of state to see a sick relative, you may be granted those days off based upon compassionate needs and might even beat out someone with more seniority. Most officers understand that some day their special need may come up so they go with it. By and large it works. The junior officers understand that their days off are a gamble, but heck, that's what seniority is all about. Their turn will come some day.

As for watch preference, there is no rotation. As long as no one wants to move, no one moves. If you want to move, you have to do at least six months before you can bump someone off their watch and replace them.

CBennett

03-28-2011, 16:03

This is a universal problem, IMO. In a job where we must be sharp at all times, many of us are zombies. (especially the night shift guys) Running around on 4 or 5 hours of sleep can be done for a while, but in the long term, its not safe, or healthy. (physically or mentally)

How is court scheduled in your area? One of my biggest complaints with 8's as a young officer is that more likely than not I'm going to have to come in for court on my days off. For me, that meant a 60 mile round trip, + the time spent in the courthouse. By the time it was done, my day off was shot in the ass. (and my department didn't pay a dime for any of it) Forget about a Fri., Sat., or Sun. off. Only the admin and people that have been around forever get to work banker's hours.

I agree about not having time for anything but sleep and work on 12's. With our stepdown schedule it was like that even on 8's, because you rarely had more than 12 hours between shifts. (and sometimes only 8) After my experiences the appeal of 12's is that I can at least plan on having a true weekend every so often.

They tried to schedule the court stuff on your work days I cant think of a lot of time I was there on my "off" days Only time was if something got rescheduled for something like weather or sickness..i think I can remember a total of 3-5 times I came in in the evening on my "off" time and the most I spent there was about 45 min to a hour. I was small town and id say 85+% of the time people just pleaded out and didnt ask for a 'trial" or witnesses or anything..this was back in 1990-93 era though now im working as a Hack :)

oh and you would not have had to worry about a 60 mile trip most of a trip you would have had to make is 6 miles...the Chief would NOT hire anyone that was not a resident and lived in the township area :) . I lived about 1/4 mile from the barracks and about 1.5 miles from the court house :) . The judges all lived within 2 miles of me for off hour arraignments..so it was a pretty convenient set up. Plus the one judge was a ex-state trooper and he knew what it was like so he was VERY good at making sure you didnt have to come in on your time.

txleapd

03-28-2011, 16:39

I wish we had them. Our dets, traffic and K-9 have them. But management says that the 12s are easier to schedule for.

Of course 12's are easier to schedule. You only need 4 patrol shifts for 24/7 coverage of each area (if you do it the way my buddy's department does it, which IMHO makes the most sense). With 8's 10's you need at least 6 patrol shifts.

With 12's you don't have to factor the overlapping days of multiple shifts into the schedule, like you 8's and 10's (if you do it the way my buddy's department does it, which IMHO makes the most sense).

If 12's work for a department, and their officers like it, that's awesome. I personally prefer 4/10's for my reasons previously stated, but I'm a nobody. I think that if the only reason administrators have their officers work 12's is because it makes scheduling easier for them, that's a raw deal. Especially if it's to the detriment of their officers.

volsbear

03-29-2011, 14:39

Holy ****! Is that a cop shop or something else?

If I had that I would tell my wife to move wherever she would be happiest living alone and then I would rent a room or shack in town during my week on. Then I would drive or fly to wherever she lived. One of our guys lives in UT and commutes weekly to work. Before that we had a guy do it to NV.

He's a pilot for a life-flight helicopter outfit.

ray9898

03-29-2011, 18:35

I love them. If you wisely use your leave time you can take a ton of 7 day stretches off. I always schedule any time off on the "short week" so I only need to use 24 hours to be off 7 days.

Panzergrenadier1979

03-30-2011, 06:43

I love them. If you wisely use your leave time you can take a ton of 7 day stretches off. I always schedule any time off on the "short week" so I only need to use 24 hours to be off 7 days.

This.

My wife loves my 12 hour schedule because of all the time off I have. If mama is happy, then all is well at my house. :cool:

DaBigBR

03-30-2011, 10:50

Holy ****! Is that a cop shop or something else?

If I had that I would tell my wife to move wherever she would be happiest living alone and then I would rent a room or shack in town during my week on. Then I would drive or fly to wherever she lived. One of our guys lives in UT and commutes weekly to work. Before that we had a guy do it to NV.

Is your guy from Utah driving in or flying? I was out your way this Christmas and couldn't see counting on making it through the mountains in the winter.

txleapd

03-30-2011, 13:31

I love them. If you wisely use your leave time you can take a ton of 7 day stretches off. I always schedule any time off on the "short week" so I only need to use 24 hours to be off 7 days.

We're able to do something similar with 4/10's at shift change. One shift I worked you were able to take a "2 for 8" (2 days vacation for 8 days off in a row), and another was "1 for 7" when we rotated our work schedule.

We couldn't do it all the time, but it was available when the schedule allowed.

CAcop

03-30-2011, 14:21

Is your guy from Utah driving in or flying? I was out your way this Christmas and couldn't see counting on making it through the mountains in the winter.

The guy from UT is flying. Very rarely will he drive. He only drives in the late spring to early fall when he needs to do something like move furniture or his wife and kids join him for most of the summer out here. The rest of the year he flys in and out.

The guy who did the NV/CA trip for 6 years before he retired drove a little more often at first but as he got older he only drove when necessary. I think the 5-6 hour drive was too rough and ate up too much time.

The UT guy uses a SW CC to build up his air miles to take the family to HI to keep the wife happy. Or at least as happy as she can be. They have an interesting relationship to begin with. I think the two of them being apart for 4/7ths of a week helps out their marriage.

If they put us on 12s and we ended up with OT at the end of every shift I would want to move the hell out of the state to deal with all of the stress. Hard to take the work home if you are a state or two away from it all.

BLACK Z

04-02-2011, 08:35

How would a 10 HR SCHD lay out and what kind of man power would you need?

CAcop

04-02-2011, 10:16

Our 10 hour days run kind of like 8 hour days in terms of manpower but we short graves and throw extra bodies on swings since swings is there during bar closing time. If we went to 8s all we would do in terms of manpower is take some people from swings and put them on graves. Our overlap times are 0730-0830 which is mostly taken up with roll call and gearing up or down, 1630-1730 which is als taken up with roll call and gearing up or down, and 2230-0230 which is when we need it most on Thurs-Sat and sometimes Tues.

txleapd

04-02-2011, 10:22

How would a 10 HR SCHD lay out and what kind of man power would you need?

It depends on the area and coverage needs.... Here, each area command (or whatever the hell we're call them these days) runs 7 patrol shifts. 2 day shifts, 3 evening shifts, and 2 night shifts. Patrol rotates their schedule (days on/off).

The day and night shifts work weekends for a month (or 28 days to be exact), then have weekends off, then back to weekends. Their work days are either tues-fri or fri-mon. Every Friday there are 2 day shifts and 2 night shifts working.

Evening shifts are trickier, because they try to work it out so two evening shifts work every night (there will be an early evening shift, and a late evening shift). This is because evenings are the busiest times (and it sucks for family life. Shifts usually range from 3p-1a to 6p-4a). Some times the schedule has an "Alamo" shift (when there's only 1 evening shift on). The different areas overlap their shifts schedules, and days on/off so as not too thin out coverage too much. It can get screwy.

I could see making it work with 2 evening shifts, but that would be more for someplace that isn't nearly as busy. If I were to come up with a 4/10 schedule for where one shift on at a time is sufficient, I would probably run the schedule something like this:

Days that shifts that are doubled up can be used for training, special assignments or projects, allowing extra people off, etc...

BLACK Z

04-02-2011, 11:12

What do you see as the min staffing needed to have say five guys on at once?

CAcop

04-02-2011, 11:39

We run 5 on graves whenfully staffed, 6 on swings when fully staffed, and 5 on days fully staffed.

Of course we have a few specialty positions such as K9, traffic, downtown, parks, etc that work during days or swings hours that add to staffing.

In all for us to run our patrol shifts at full staffing we need 94 authorzed total with about40-45 on patrol. I personally think we are top heavy and with too many people in specialty units and not enough on patrol. Minimum staffing for all shift for the whole week is about 30 people.

We also work on the team concept where there are two schedules in the week Wed-Sat and Sun-Wed. If we are short people we will work a schedule where everybody has different days off. With that scheduling we could go as low as 25 or so and not be short on the shifts. Which is sad to say because investigations or other specialty units are the last to get cut vs. patrol.

txleapd

04-02-2011, 17:23

What do you see as the min staffing needed to have say five guys on at once?

If you are asking about having a minimum of 5 guys on the street, then you would need 5 guys in each shift (or 30 officers total).

Most of the day would be covered by only one shift at a time. There would only be overlap 6 hours each day....

First being 6a-7a (1 hour), with the day shift starting at 6a and the night shift getting off at 7a. This hour of overlap would actually be more about transitioning between shifts and also day shift officers to take over for night shift officer on some calls.

Second being 3p-4p (1 hour), with the evening shift officers starting at 3p and day shift getting off at 4p. Once again this hour is more transitioning....

The third overlap, 9p-7a, would be the longest (4 hours), because that would most likely be the busiest time.

Of course the schedule could be set up so there is a 2 hour overlap for each shift.

ateamer

04-02-2011, 21:29

We are on 4-10s. Two patrol teams, A and B (guess which one I am from). A team works Wednesday through Saturday, with the first Wednesday of each month off as a paid holiday. The second Wednesday is A-team's training day. B-team works Sunday through Wednesday, with the third Wednesday for their holiday and the fourth Wednesday for training. In months when there is a fifth Wednesday, the entire SWAT and bomb teams train (they have frequent training, but it's often less than the full team) and patrol is combined of the leftovers. Otherwise, there are no days when both teams work.

We generally run about eight on days, two on earlies, seven or eight on swings and seven on graves, when staffing is doing well. If we had the bucks to run full staffing, it would be more like 10, 5, 10 and 8.

We have shift change every January and July. Shifts are picked by seniority with a limit of one year on a shift (early and late swings both count as swings for shift pick). Exceptions are for K-9, which always works late swings, and FTOs. We don't have FTOs on graves, and sometimes FTOs can stay on a shift for more than two rotations if everything works out to allow that.

Each team is commanded by a lieutenant, and each shift is led by a sergeant. It's up to the sergeants how beats are assigned. Most do it by seniority.

We have looked at going to 12s on the Pittman schedule before, but it was put to a vote of the deputies and the majority said no. A number of guys with kids had concerns about arranging child care with having rotating days off, and others were concerned that with calls at the end of the shift and paperwork, 12s would turn into 14s pretty quickly. For FTOs, 10s pretty routinely become 12 to 14, so FTOs and trainees working 16+ hours on a scheduled 12 would be commonplace. Bad idea.

SpoiledBySig

04-02-2011, 22:44

I sure would love having 4 days on and 4 days off. The days off rotate every week for everybody, which is fair.:cool:

My son's police dept. has that schedule and everybody there loves it. He told me that when you go on vacation for 4 days, you actually get 12 straight days off...I'd love a schedule like that!

At our (University) Police dept. we offer 4 Ten hour days and then 3 days off, for the afternoon and midnight shifts. For our day shift, it's 5 eight hour days per week (too many day shift deadbeats crying about family hardships, they'd actually get more time with their families by having 3 days off, instead of 2 days off). :crying::supergrin:

DonGlock26

04-03-2011, 15:02

We are trying it, and we are busy. I think a majority hates them, and hopefully we go back to 8's. :fist:

LC Deputy

04-06-2011, 11:57

I have worked 12 hour shifts for the last 6 years and I love it. It seems to me like I have more time off on my days off. We work either a 5a to 5p shift or 5p to 5a shift. More guys on nights then days so that helps with the call volume. Again we are also slower in the winter months and pick up in the summer. I know the day shift has a harder time getting reports done but we dont have computers in the car like most departments do so we have to be at the station to write. Our schedule would go like this, work Monday & Tuesday, off Wednesday & Thursday, work Friday, Saturday & Sunday, then off Monday & Tuesday, work Wednesday & Thursday, and off Friday, Saturday & Sunday. It is nice to get every other weekend off and actually fell like you are getting some time off.

BLACK Z

04-06-2011, 17:07

I am still on the fence about this.

cowboywannabe

04-08-2011, 14:27

We work 12's on the Pittman and I love the schedule but our rotation sucks. We rotate days to nights every set of days. I don't care to work days and I don't care to work night but I hate working both in the same week every week. Your body never gets adjusted and doesn't know whether your supposed to be asleep or awake. Hopefully it will get changed some day. Personally I would prefer rotating every two weeks.

you my fine fellow work for a moron.

cowboywannabe

04-08-2011, 15:00

we are on 12's, every other (3 day) weekend off, rotate every 3 months days to nights.

the problem is we only have two men on shift when four is usually required for all the special watches, special details, and other touchy feely stuff they want AND keep your arrest numbers up.

we loose our valuable days off often because when one man calls in sick or goes to training or wants vacation there is no coverage other than one man, so the off shift looses out often.

we also have to "do ti all", patrol, investigate, run the city jail, veh. mtnc, do admin stuff.....that makes 12's suck ass bad, burn out is common and brass getting on you about low productivity adds to the disenchantment.....8's would be a relief for the guys on day shift only, but afternoon shift would never see their families, and days off would be far and few between.

We work 12s, 4 days on 4 days off. You rotate through weekends off every once in a while and you work as a team so I have come to like it pretty well. I have worked 8 hour shifts, 10 hour shifts, and this seems to be as good as any of the rest, maybe even better because of the long days off. We also have unlimited overtime for interstate patrol traffic safety programs, so you can pick up extra money on your days off with no problem.

Panzergrenadier1979

04-08-2011, 17:26

We work 12's on the Pittman and I love the schedule but our rotation sucks. We rotate days to nights every set of days. I don't care to work days and I don't care to work night but I hate working both in the same week every week. Your body never gets adjusted and doesn't know whether your supposed to be asleep or awake. Hopefully it will get changed some day. Personally I would prefer rotating every two weeks.

Ouch!

We work 12s and rotate days to nights (and visa versa) every 14 days. That works out to an approximate "month" of days or nights. This is fine with me; I can do most of my follow-ups on days and get any of my particularly heavy paperwork done on nights. Plus, the actual day of the switch is on the Monday after a weekend off so that we get the whole weekend to adjust for the upcoming sleep schedule change.

When we worked eights we used to have a guy that had to do a day shift, two evenings, and two late nights in a five day work week. That sucked.

BLACK Z

04-14-2011, 03:50

The vote passed, not by much but it did. Now we have to figure out hours and if there will be any over lapping shifts.

Panzergrenadier1979

04-14-2011, 07:15

When we worked eights we used to have a guy that had to do a day shift, two evenings, and two late nights in a five day work week. That sucked.

I believe that the PA State Police do something similar with their schedules. They don't have a take home car program, but troopers who get scheduled to begin a shift 8 hours after their previous shift ended are allowed to take their car home on that particular day.

Perhaps a PSP Trooper can confirm this?

Agent6-3/8

04-14-2011, 07:48

When we worked eights we used to have a guy that had to do a day shift, two evenings, and two late nights in a five day work week. That sucked.

That sort of schedule sucked bad enough as it is, but when you mix in being stuck late at EOW and court its all but in tolerable.

CarloTwoGuns

04-19-2011, 07:30

We run 4 10's

Days off

SMT , TWT , TFS , SSM

Day shift 0700-1700
Afternoons 1500-0100
Midnights 2200-0800

I enjoy it.
Work mids, all my court is OT .

Bullman

04-19-2011, 07:48

I like working nights, but I don't like watching the sun come up, that working till 8 in the morning would kill me. Guess I have turned vampire.

Agent6-3/8

04-19-2011, 07:51

I like working nights, but I don't like watching the sun come up, that working till 8 in the morning would kill me. Guess I have turned vampire.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels like that. There is just something wrong about going to work when the sun is still up, watching it set and then watching it rise again...

DaBigBR

04-19-2011, 23:00

That's one of the things I like about my 1700-0500 schedule...I usually get home before it's light out. Push it a bit in the summer, but it at least "feels" like it's still night time when I go to bed.

Bullman

04-20-2011, 05:08

the only thing I don't like about nights 1700 to 0500 is.........

When I work days I have to get up a like 0400 to get ready for work, and that sucks the big one.:supergrin:

DaBigBR

04-20-2011, 09:25

the only thing I don't like about nights 1700 to 0500 is.........

When I work days I have to get up a like 0400 to get ready for work, and that sucks the big one.:supergrin:

My biggest pet peeve is 0900 court. All of our traffic court is at 0900. It's not enough time to go to sleep and too long to stay up.

Bullman

04-20-2011, 09:32

My biggest pet peeve is 0900 court. All of our traffic court is at 0900. It's not enough time to go to sleep and too long to stay up.

You got a good point there. I always get scheduled for morning court.

CarloTwoGuns

04-21-2011, 23:56

People always ask us why us Midnight guys have the darkest sunglasses .

Sun = The enemy

BLACK Z

11-24-2011, 15:37

Well we have been on them for a little over 5 Months, We had a six Month Trial period, When we voted the first time it passed by only 1 vote, we are we voting again and I am pretty sure it will pass by a lot more.

I was for them ( I hate change ) but I do like them now, The bosses want to do another 6 Month trial period so we arent on them for good yet.

We work 8 to 8 and the SRO's and Det along with some Brass are still on 8's.

Figured I d give you guys a update.

Doc8404

11-24-2011, 15:53

i haven't read the rest of the posts....but will tell you that studies show that beyond 10 hours, most people are functioning like a drunk....read a lot about that when i was finishing my healthcare degree. and I must say, having important employees like healthcare workers or cops working past ten hours, it's a BAD idea.

:goodpost:

BLACK Z

11-24-2011, 16:10

Ten Hours is the shifts Id want.

I know when I work nights which is every Five weeks we change, I get up on the first day I have to work at about 7 or 8 am I go to work at 8 PM, I come home at about 9 AM go to sleep around 10 am and I get back up about 2 or 3 PM. When I get off in am and am on RDO I get off at 8 AM And I stay up in till about 9 Pm So I have been up 30 Plus Hrs.

It can be rough at times.

G33Fla

11-24-2011, 16:26

four 10 hr days here, 3 day weekends!

CJStudent

11-24-2011, 16:46

I like our schedule, granted it's geared towards inside the fence. Each post for each shift has assigned days off. You bid on the post every quarter; assignments are based on seniority. We also have what we call "sick and annual" as a post assignment, which is what I'm on right now. They basically swing to cover whatever needs covered. You also bid on what's open weekly on that post, again assignments based on seniority. I've been able, as the 3rd lowest guy on the sick and annual roster, to stay on days or evenings, and still keep a decent schedule. I get weekends off every few weeks, and I'm okay with it. Granted, I'm a single guy with no kids, but still.

Is there a way to adapt that to a patrol-type format? I don't know. There probably is, but it would take some figuring out.

Goldendog Redux

11-24-2011, 16:53

Whatever shift keeps me away from work for the longest uninterrupted period is nice. I would be one unhappy motherscratcher if we went to 8s.

MF

SCSU74

11-24-2011, 21:11

We have 10 hr shifts and I love em. Same 3 days off every week, makes planning stuff real easy and the week goes fast.

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copenhagen2001

11-25-2011, 01:31

We work 12s here at the jail 1900 hours Muster - 0721 hours
Mon Tues
Wen Thur - off
Fri Sat Sun
Mon Tues - off
Wen Thur
Fri Sat Sun -off
I like this shift the best, Plus I work straight nights, I dont have to deal with all the brass. I cant stand Day Shift.

BULLRUNN

11-25-2011, 05:33

Johnneyreb Norfolk Police Dept runs the Booking and the jail is run by the Sheriff's office the booking and jail are on 12' every other week end off Fri Sat Sun 28 day cycle Pittman schedule. THEY LOVE IT.. contact Norfolk Police Dept Booking unit.

Landric

11-25-2011, 09:06

My department does the "Pittman" or "modified DuPont" or whatever one wants to call it locally. At any rate, its On M,T; Off W, Th; On F, S, Su; Off M,T; On W, Th; Off F, S, Su. We work 7-7 and rotate between days and nights every two weeks.

Basically, I hate it. Yes, the days off are nice, but night shift working is especially bad. I have small children, and even before I did, my ability to sleep during the day wasn't very good. Add in the rotation every two weeks, and I end up working night shift with 4 or 5 hours of sleep a "night". Then, of course, the DA's office always seems to want to subpoena us when we are in the middle of night shift despite the fact that they have our schedules and are supposed to be mindful of it. We all know that their defense attorney golf buddies schedules' are more important to them, no matter what they say.

The schedule would be a lot better if it was day shift only (or I suppose even night shift only, at least then I could get used to it). I would much rather work tens or nines with more days in a row, but less hours per day. My first job in LE I worked 6 on 3 off; 6 on 3 off; 6 on 4 off, nine hour shifts, with no shift rotation. I worked evening shift (1530-0030) for almost six years straight and I loved it.

I live four miles from the PD, so I don't even have to deal with a commute back and forth to work. It is worse for the guys that don't live in or near the city. I would do a lot more work if I got more rest. On 12s I pretty much feel like crap all the time, but it is worse on night shift. Of course the command staff, who work all days (and often don't show up on Fridays) have every weekend off and get to sleep at night. They don't want to change the patrol schedule.

Milltown

11-25-2011, 13:29

I love them. If you wisely use your leave time you can take a ton of 7 day stretches off. I always schedule any time off on the "short week" so I only need to use 24 hours to be off 7 days.

All 12 hour shifts:

At my new facility they work M T F S S and then have off W Th. The next week you work W Th and have M T F S S off.

So to get a 7 days off you only have to take off 2 days, or find someone willing to swap with you.

efman

11-25-2011, 18:38

We work 12s here at the jail 1900 hours Muster - 0721 hours
Mon Tues
Wen Thur - off
Fri Sat Sun
Mon Tues - off
Wen Thur
Fri Sat Sun -off
I like this shift the best, Plus I work straight nights, I dont have to deal with all the brass. I cant stand Day Shift.

this what we do, I like it for the most part. the only thing I don't like is if i have to cover for someone on the opposite shift. working 4 or 5 days straight on 12 hour shifts and only having a day off before going back to my long week can be alittle rough.

RetailNinja

11-25-2011, 20:36

12hr day shift 6a-6p not so bad
12hr night shift 6p-6a get the front out

I went to too many high speed calls at 4am-5am balls hangin out tired and realized that if SHTF I was more likely to take a nap than be combat effective. Never will again, and I talk mad shart about them at contract and department meetings because I KNOW every guy that I worked 12hr night with only coped because they had a sleep spot. Morons.

EDIT to add:

Testifying at 9 or 10AM after getting off at 0600 was awful, and writing long winded, frequent flier, alkie, DUI reports was ridiculous. Proofreading was out of the question.

Bullman

11-26-2011, 04:05

EDIT to add:

Testifying at 9 or 10AM after getting off at 0600 was awful, and writing long winded, frequent flier, alkie, DUI reports was ridiculous. Proofreading was out of the question.

Good point, morning court after an all nights does suck pretty hard.

Agent6-3/8

11-27-2011, 08:26

Good point, morning court after an all nights does suck pretty hard.

That was killer at my last department with our step down schedule. Sometimes you'd get off at 0800, have court, at 0900 or whenever, then have to be back for an evening shift at 1600...:faint:

fpgeek

11-27-2011, 17:46

I worked 12 hour shift when I was a deputy for an unnamed Michigan sheriff's office. Hated them. Sleep disruption and deprivation was awful and if you had something hot at the end of shift, you were screwed. Same thing if you lived any distance from the Jail and had bad weather. On a work day the only thing you had time for was work and going home. Forget any errands. The only people that liked them were the administrators since they could hire fewer people for the same number of posts and cars. If you worked nights you were off at 0600 and back at court for 0900-1200 or later, then back on shift again at 1800.

Our schedule was 3 days during week one, and 3 days plus an 8 hour day on week 2.

ArmaGlock

11-28-2011, 03:07

We (Patrol) work 11.42 hour shifts (11 hours, 25 minutes), 4 on, 5 off, 5 on, 4 off, 5 on, 5 off, start over. Patrol is split into two color squads, 6 watches on each side (See hours below). I like it and so do most other guys. Shifts don't seem that long and the days off are great!

We (Patrol) work 11.42 hour shifts (11 hours, 25 minutes), 4 on, 5 off, 5 on, 4 off, 5 on, 5 off, start over. Patrol is split into two color squads, 6 watches on each side (See hours below). I like it and so do most other guys. Shifts don't seem that long and the days off are great!