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Male and female hair

I was once a man with very long hair. I am in the military now so it's gone, but back when CoH existed I always wished I could use the female hair styles on my male character based on myself. I settled for the long low ponytail at that time.

It's not just long hair it's style of the long hair. I used the generic neck long hair myself. Thought sometimes switched to the male pony tail. It comes down to options would an Elf have the same long hair a long haired barbarian caveman? Would a true blooded Dwarf use the same pony tail as a tree loving hippy?

Honestly, to be truly respectful of all humans and their ideas and creativity, all costume pieces would be cross-gender and/or genderless. Including boobs. All hair options, makeup, bearded women, camp-drag, etc...

What's a better disguise than a gender-bend?!

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“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams

Honestly, to be truly respectful of all humans and their ideas and creativity, all costume pieces would be cross-gender and/or genderless. Including boobs. All hair options, makeup, bearded women, camp-drag, etc...
What's a better disguise than a gender-bend?!

Its a, uh lets go with "polite" idea. But I think that may give us a stigma akin to the Sims. Quickly back to the topic at hand: I am not against the idea of more types of long hair for guys but I think pigtails and the like will make our game look like a joke in the eyes of some. I may be wrong, but I would raise an eyebrow at any game that gives that option.

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I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

Yes, because there's visually speaking there aren't hairy fat old dudes playing girls in pigtails already...

I've not heard any of such stigma that the Sims has, and honestly it doesn't have much gender bending in the base code that I'm aware of. If you have a problem with guys in pigtails or the concept of a gender-bending hero, I'd question where that concern comes from to dictate a "NO" to a generalizing comment about inclusion and freedom of options.

Kindly speaking, catering to the misogynistic majority that is "Heterosexual/asexual white male gamers" is going to be quite insulting to the legacy of CoH which was one of the most LGBT inclusive communities to exist to date.

Bluntly speaking, if you have a problem with gays and transgenders, bugger off.

—

“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams

Sir or Miss, my comment was not antigay or anything of the sort. I simply deflected a comment that I felt was on the wrong forum and brought the topic back to *hair*. On the subject of hair, I was expressing my views, which are just as valid as yours. The difference between you and me is that I will not insult you at the end of this post. Kindly refrain from doing so again and we will all get along fine.

Now, a constructive comment to get us back on topic: image is imortant in this modern age of gaming. If we are to be taken seriously can we at least agree that "pigtails for men" should be on the back burner? Like a later release to add goofyness? Just a thought. No one has to agree.

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I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

My point is built on a few, which applies to this forum in a scope I'll happily educate at the end if it hasn't been pieced together by then

The kickstarter updates have already indicated that they are using a genderless model named Andy for costume pieces. I think this alone should satisfy most in the need to say that all costume pieces, hair, makeup, and accessories should by default be able to be cross-gender with minimal base coding to say "these are girl parts and those are boy parts."
The commentary of the OP i have read and interpreted that they would like fewer of these genderless hair parts to be specified male or female, where in past games like CoH the overwhelming majority of hair went to females and both males and huge had a fraction of these, especially after females gained access to all of the male hair options but the reverse was not reciprocated.
My point is that no hair parts should be gender specific, and in fact from a broader scope that would impact hair, all costume pieces should leave gender-marking off and gender should not be an aspect of constructing the costume parts database. There would be extra effort to define the gender in most programing languages and I'm merely stating that effort should be avoided.

Also, saying that "pigtails for men would hurt the image of the game" is a misogynistic comment. You may not be a misogynist, but the comment absolutely is. It implies that pigtails are degrading for men so only women should be allowed to use them since they are beneath men. So while I respect your view that men shouldn't have pigtails, and vehemently disagree with it, it would actually create MORE work in a system designed properly to DENY pigtails for men at launch. Lastly, if you can find a way to justify why pigtails shouldn't be allowed for men but allowed for women and not have the commentary sound misogynistic, by all means, please correct me.

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“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams

The fact that you keep using "misogynist" for this topic only shows that you cannot stop insulting me. Misogyny is the hatred of women, and a slap in the face to any it is applied to. I am only implying that pigtails on a male are considered comical in most of western culture and may undercut us starting out.. Female hair styles are not "beneath" men, they were just not designed with males in mind. Also, you claim that they plan to cut down on the number specificly male and female hair options. Not do away with them on the whole. Now, stop insulting me. I will not be so kind next time.

To carry on the topic among others less prone to anger:how do you all think the hair colors should be done for long hair? One solid color or in shades if possible?

—

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

Yes, because there's visually speaking there aren't hairy fat old dudes playing girls in pigtails already...
I've not heard any of such stigma that the Sims has, and honestly it doesn't have much gender bending in the base code that I'm aware of. If you have a problem with guys in pigtails or the concept of a gender-bending hero, I'd question where that concern comes from to dictate a "NO" to a generalizing comment about inclusion and freedom of options.
Kindly speaking, catering to the misogynistic majority that is "Heterosexual/asexual white male gamers" is going to be quite insulting to the legacy of CoH which was one of the most LGBT inclusive communities to exist to date.
Bluntly speaking, if you have a problem with gays and transgenders, bugger off.

Bluntly speaking, let's please not go down this path you seem to want to open. And kindly speaking, it's not just hetro/white male gamers who might think it's silly.

The poster had a point, whether you or I or anyone else wants to admit it. Allowing certain things in the game can make others see it as a joke.

I know I started to see TERA Online, a game I quite enjoyed, become a bit more of a joke when I saw the Ice Cream Sword. And if they added an inflatable mallet for another class (can't recall if they did) I'd find it more so.

Look at Wildstar's art style, already plenty of non white/non hetro's who consider it's aesthetics a joke and don't want to play it because of it. When making a game, the devs will have to consider many factors, one of them may be not allowing pig tails for men until further down the line. Or they may just not care and put it in from the beginning. But it's all things they have to consider.

I know I started to see TERA Online, a game I quite enjoyed, become a bit more of a joke when I saw the Ice Cream Sword. And if they added an inflatable mallet for another class (can't recall if they did) I'd find it more so.

Didn't want to start anything with this. Just saying that when I played CoH I couldn't match my own appearance because there was only one long hairstyle for males. I'd like all female hairs, but will settle for just several long hair options. I'll still play without it, I'm just saying what would make me happiest.

Bluntly speaking, let's please not go down this path you seem to want to open. And kindly speaking, it's not just hetro/white male gamers who might think it's silly.
The poster had a point, whether you or I or anyone else wants to admit it. Allowing certain things in the game can make others see it as a joke.

No doubt some people will consider it silly. I'm certain there were those who said (and still say) similar things about heroes, especially female heroes, running about in tights. Or men with long hair (I can call to mind one fellow's comment about how some people called him a 'chick' in the '70s because he had long hair).

In the broad, developer's "should we / shouldn't we" view I agree that there is a line, generally speaking, that should not be crossed. Hair styles and colors are a long way from reaching that line.

With all due respect to everyone's personal opinion, let's not get carried away worrying about what 'others' or 'some people' might think.

Didn't want to start anything with this. Just saying that when I played CoH I couldn't match my own appearance because there was only one long hairstyle for males. I'd like all female hairs, but will settle for just several long hair options. I'll still play without it, I'm just saying what would make me happiest.

Same here, friend. Sorry that things got so heated. I think that we all want the same thing in a broad scope, its just difficult to agree on the specifics.

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I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

While it's unlikely that a bra or beehive hair do will be available for the male model, or for mustaches and chest hair be available for the female model, it is likely that there will be a lot of androgynous choices and maybe a few stereotype-breaking options.

Certainly, anything reserved for one gender would have to have a very, very strong reason for the reservation. E.g., CoH's feet-dragging with regard to kilts and bunny tails for males is not likely to be repeated in CoT.

While it's unlikely that a bra or beehive hair do will be available for the male model, or for mustaches and chest hair be available for the female model, it is likely that there will be a lot of androgynous choices and maybe a few stereotype-breaking options.
Certainly, anything reserved for one gender would have to have a very, very strong reason for the reservation. E.g., CoH's feet-dragging with regard to kilts and bunny tails for males is not likely to be repeated in CoT.
Disclaimer: No promises.

As an editor for GayGamer.net I was already selling these options to my skeptical producers as to why they should be looking at this game.. now you tell me its unlikely.

Zombie Man wrote:
While it's unlikely that a bra or beehive hair do will be available for the male model, or for mustaches and chest hair be available for the female model, it is likely that there will be a lot of androgynous choices and maybe a few stereotype-breaking options.
Certainly, anything reserved for one gender would have to have a very, very strong reason for the reservation. E.g., CoH's feet-dragging with regard to kilts and bunny tails for males is not likely to be repeated in CoT.
Disclaimer: No promises.

As an editor for GayGamer.net I was already selling these options to my skeptical producers as to why they should be looking at this game.. now you tell me its unlikely.
Poor choice.

Because it's unlikely to have no bee hive style hair styles and bra options for male avatars, or mustache and chest hair for female avatars?

We all want a good game, dev time is limited, and you feel those 4 options would be popular enough with players to warrant the dev time to have those options at launch?

JayBezz wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:
While it's unlikely that a bra or beehive hair do will be available for the male model, or for mustaches and chest hair be available for the female model, it is likely that there will be a lot of androgynous choices and maybe a few stereotype-breaking options.
Certainly, anything reserved for one gender would have to have a very, very strong reason for the reservation. E.g., CoH's feet-dragging with regard to kilts and bunny tails for males is not likely to be repeated in CoT.
Disclaimer: No promises.

As an editor for GayGamer.net I was already selling these options to my skeptical producers as to why they should be looking at this game.. now you tell me its unlikely.
Poor choice.

Because it's unlikely to have no bee hive style hair styles and bra options for male avatars, or mustache and chest hair for female avatars?
We all want a good game, dev time is limited, and you feel those 4 options would be popular enough with players to warrant the dev time to have those options at launch?

In a perfect world I'd have no problem with bee hive hair styles and bra options for male avatars, or mustache and chest hair for female avatars. But as you say Dev time is finite and priorities must be made.

It's not just a matter of the Devs creating a single item (like let's say the bee hive hair style) and then deciding which body model will get to use it. If the Devs are going to let both males and females use it they'd have to create/modify specific versions of that hair style for EACH body model. That's more work than just creating it for one model. So it's not just a matter of pure gender equality, it's a matter of having enough time to create every single costume item multiple times. Obviously the Devs are going to need to prioritze and the outliers (like female chest hair) are unfortunately not likely to make the first cut.

For what it's worth I'd love to see literally millions of options in the character creator that I know with almost absolute certainty will NOT exist at launch and probably won't ever exist. Do I have any right to say that the inability of the costume creator to provide me with infinite options is a "poor choice" on the Devs' part? Hardly...

I understand what you're saying about dev time but gender roles and stereotypes are often painful to the gaymer community. And yes there may be people out there with trans-phobia as well as those who see trans issues as a punchline to a off color joke.. But I DID read somewhere concerning this game that options will be available for both models and have thus used this as a basis of why the queer community could and should support City of Titans avatar builder.

I would prefer a game precedent that devs will create costume pieces useable by all models. Hell I prefer to see NO gender assigned to characters and let players use sliders to define the characteristics that people identify with gender (breast, hip, muscle mass, etc).

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I've already offered my platform high heel design (From Kickstarter) to a member of my SG who plays as a male character who loved the design.. his character is basically a male Star Sapphire (Purple Lantern). Alot of his character deals with the 4th wall double standard of male/female representation in comic books. He in particular I am sad to disappoint. SO be sure to remember this when i send back my design for the survey..

I understand what you're saying about dev time but gender roles and stereotypes are often painful to the gaymer community. And yes there may be people out there with trans-phobia as well as those who see trans issues as a punchline to a off color joke.. But I DID read somewhere concerning this game that options will be available for both models and have thus used this as a basis of why the queer community could and should support City of Titans avatar builder.
I would prefer a game precedent that devs will create costume pieces useable by all models. Hell I prefer to see NO gender assigned to characters and let players use sliders to define the characteristics that people identify with gender (breast, hip, muscle mass, etc).
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I've already offered my platform high heel design (From Kickstarter) to a member of my SG who plays as a male character who loved the design.. his character is basically a male Star Sapphire (Purple Lantern). Alot of his character deals with the 4th wall double standard of male/female representation in comic books. He in particular I am sad to disappoint. SO be sure to remember this when i send back my design for the survey..

Again I'm not insensitive to the gaymer ideal that all costume items ought to be "genderless" and usable by any character model. But I'm also well aware of the realities of engineering priorities and I've come to realize that in software projects of this size there's always going to be something that somebody really wants that they aren't going to get. There are plenty of things that I want from this game that I'm not going to get and that has nothing to do with "trans-phobia" or gender issues of any kind.

On a positive note I think the Devs of CoT are probably more mindful of these issues than most game Devs so I'd still be willing to bet that we'll see more "gender item crossovers" in this game than we saw in CoH or that exist in most other games. I'd hate to think anyone could react negatively to this game because it only managed to be the "most" liberal in this regard instead of being absolutely perfect. If you were hoping this was going to be the perfect game on Day One then I think you set your expectations a little too high.

I'm not expecting perfection from ANY launch at day 1.. but I do believe that precedent matters. And the hetero-normative precedent of what is for men and what is for women is something I obviously wish to avoid.

I support a precedent of the devs following the goose and gander rule. If the set is worth making then it's worth it for both models. Set your priorities accordingly. So if body hair is going to be a dev priority then plan for enough time for both models to get the options and for them to be included in the costume database accordingly.

There is also a REAL cost being proposed for costume sets. If I buy the "Harajuku set" I am (and was) upset if the costumes I just paid to unlock all the sudden don't apply to my character because he is "male". I'd rather they err on the side of inclusion because it is the lesser of the evils. The "slippery slope" argument does much less potential damage. However, conversely, if the precedent is set that costumes are gender specific.. then why not animations.. Are whip animations only for women? Is engineering only for men?

There surely will be moderation of bad behavior from ANY player to keep the game inclusive and fun for everyone so NO one is subject to persecution be they for their religeous representation or sex identity. But that doesn't mean I want a game where there are no burka's, habits, no yamakkas et cetera. Representation matters. And just as much as I am happy to see African American and Asian races being represented early.. I hope the ideals of inclusion continue in the terms of gender expression.

I'm not expecting perfection from ANY launch at day 1.. but I do believe that precedent matters. And the hetero-normative precedent of what is for men and what is for women is something I obviously wish to avoid.
I support a precedent of the devs following the goose and gander rule. If the set is worth making then it's worth it for both models. Set your priorities accordingly. So if body hair is going to be a dev priority then plan for enough time for both models to get the options and for them to be included in the costume database accordingly.
There is also a REAL cost being proposed for costume sets. If I buy the "Harajuku set" I am (and was) upset if the costumes I just paid to unlock all the sudden don't apply to my character because he is "male". I'd rather they err on the side of inclusion because it is the lesser of the evils. The "slippery slope" argument does much less potential damage. However, conversely, if the precedent is set that costumes are gender specific.. then why not animations.. Are whip animations only for women? Is engineering only for men?
There surely will be moderation of bad behavior from ANY player to keep the game inclusive and fun for everyone so NO one is subject to persecution be they for their religeous representation or sex identity. But that doesn't mean I want a game where there are no burka's, habits, no yamakkas et cetera. Representation matters. And just as much as I am happy to see African American and Asian races being represented early.. I hope the ideals of inclusion continue in the terms of gender expression.

I suppose it may be "fairer" in some abstract sense if the Devs adopted your "if we're going to make something at all we'll make it for everyone" paradigm.

On the other hand if there's something out there that 99.999% of the time is identified with being single gender specific I'm not totally sure that leftover 0.001% of the time justifies it not going in the game at all because the Devs couldn't get around to making it for all body models. You're basically making a draconian "cut off your nose to spite your face" argument here. Frankly if we were ever given the choice between having something only be available to one gender body model or not have it in the game at all I'd typically accept the former without hesitation.

Again overall I believe CoT will have far, far fewer examples of inequity when it comes to costume gendering issues. I really don't think that asking for a "precedent" of 100% strictness is completely reasonable or realistic. It’s a goal to strive for, not a reality that’s instantly possible or guaranteed.

On the other hand if there's something out there that 99.999% of the time is identified with being single gender specific I'm not totally sure that leftover 0.001% of the time justifies it not going in the game at all because the Devs couldn't get around to making it for all body models. You're basically making a draconian "cut off your nose to spite your face" argument here. Frankly if we were ever given the choice between having something only be available to one gender body model or not have it in the game at all I'd typically accept the former without hesitation.

There is also a REAL cost being proposed for costume sets. If I buy the "Harajuku set" I am (and was) upset if the costumes I just paid to unlock all the sudden don't apply to my character because he is "male". I'd rather they err on the side of inclusion because it is the lesser of the evils. The "slippery slope" argument does much less potential damage. However, conversely, if the precedent is set that costumes are gender specific.. then why not animations.. Are whip animations only for women? Is engineering only for men?

This certainly is a rather absurd strawman and slippery slope.*

While I would also protest against gender based restrictions - particularly utterly arbitrary ones** - , the accusation of homophobia and misogyny seem far from appropriate, argumenting ad hominem.

*Particularly, why should anyone make whips exclusively female? While I can see where you come from with exclusively male engineering (i.e. historic sexism), this seems even more arbitrary. But, anyways, the actual point is that your argument itself is utterly fallacious.
**For example, in CoH, you could not have females with the "Bestial" and "Demonic" faces, or the Alien Skull "helmet", and none of the "hostile" females looked this way.

I make no accusation at anyone. Neither MWM nor ZM. I simply am expressing my disappointment in their expressed plan for gender specificity, and I am asking for a paradigm change.

Whatever fears may exist (homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, or otherwise) they have surely will be covered by the EULA. I am arguing that the benefits outweigh the presumed risk, because whatever risk of bad behavior may exist is already covered.

This certainly is a rather absurd strawman and slippery slope. Particularly, why should anyone make whips exclusively female? While I can see where you come from with exclusively male engineering (i.e. historic sexism), this seems even more arbitrary. But, anyways, the actual point is that your argument itself is utterly fallacious.

I would prefer the slope, no matter the magnitude, be for consistent inclusion. If they say it's okay for only male characters to have one thing.. then the precedent is set for this line of thought in other areas. Sure you can draw the line in YOUR mind.. but if you trust others to draw the same line you are either foolish or telepathic. Yes the slippery slope argument sounds absurd.. until you realize that slope always constitutes inertial force being applied in a direction. I don't like the direction of gender specific design.
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Beyond gender, I want a game that really embraces the politics of inclusions. I don't want to be told my female cannot have body hair (What if she's a human/insect hybrid? Or perhaps a feminist who does not believe in the ideals of shaving her body hair off). I don't want to be told my character cannot be asian, black, arab, or red haired. I don't want to be told my character cannot wear a yammakuh, cross, veil or resemble an angel or demon. I don't want to be told my character cannot be a crossdresser.

Yes I am making a greater argument, but no matter what your personal feelings about any of the associations I list above.. I don't want the devs to take a hard line against ANY of them.. including and especially the latter.

I am not actually trying to argue against your goals, I am criticising your argumentation, which is unconvincing and insulting to someone who has no problem at all with no/minimal bodytype- limited costume pieces. Considering this, you can hardly hope to convince someone who actually opposes you.
And, in this regard, at least Zombie Man's reply is certainly not as hostile as you make it out to be, even though I have no idea where the problem is with beehives or mustaches (bras and chesthair might be problematic because you have to account for the breasts).
A slippery slope is not a strong or even valid argument, particularly if it is one as hyperbolic as yours. It is a fallacy. Again, I am not arguing against your goals, but point out that your argumentation is badly formulated.
And finally: Even if you do not recognise it, your rhetorics come of as if you attempt to insult your perceived enemies. Indeed, in your reply you imply I was heavily prejudiced, even though my prejudices (and I try to be as unbiased as possible) are not in any way relevant to my argument, since I am talking about logic, not prejudices.

At this point, I do know that there is no set policy among the Devs regarding stereotyped cross-gender avatar items. So, nothing is set in stone yet, which means it's worth it to continue to discuss it.

Now, I'm not unfamiliar with the ins and outs of the LGBT community and am an ardent proponent of equality. But the idea that a person is going to have a Beehive hair do or be wearing a bra and not also be in (relatively) full drag strains credulity. And if you're going to be in full drag, then you use the female model so that the bra is actually fitting on the polygons needed to support it.

As I mentioned above, models will almost certain have androgynous options. And as part of that, there has been discussions (but no final decisions) about players choosing their own gender pronouns for game play. So, there is a possibility (but not decided) of using the model of one gender but self-identifying as another (and also a non-gendered option for all you robots).

HAHA I take it you've never been to jaybezz.com (Or been to San Francisco). For clarification there is a difference between the transgendered community and the transvestite community. Some dudes just like to wear women's clothes.. and while most games have no problems giving females male clothing options they seem to fail to see the "credulity" in the opposite.

I will simply commend you for admitting the desire for more inclusive gameplay.

Here's one article I hope will help you open your mind to what some of these decisions can mean to some of the most ninja of the LGBT community.. the ones who don't want to stand out that I'm more than willing to speak for:

Additionally, all you need do is go to ANY Con and you'll see gender defying cosplay walking through the aisles. Men being powerful female tropes is just plain awesome.. I'm always in awe of a male star sapphire or "Emmet Frost" when I see one.

Those are pretty nice! I would be down for all of those. Men do need more longhaired options than CoX had.

With that said, the developers always erred on the side of "what largest amount of people will get the most use out of item X?" and then they went with that, which is for instance probably why we never saw the Steampunk skirts for men. I'm also thinking the CoT developers will go the same way, because this is the most efficient use of their time.

As I recall the CoX developers were very wary that might make people look down on the game as a joke; and Lord knows people could get around that barrier with ease, even with the tools we had. Why make it easier, even if people actually kept most of their "joke" characters - which did not seem to happen very often. They and their friends got a few giggles out of it, then that character was not seen again.

As I recall the CoX developers were very wary that might make people look down on the game as a joke; and Lord knows people could get around that barrier with ease, even with the tools we had. Why make it easier, even if people actually kept most of their "joke" characters - which did not seem to happen very often. They and their friends got a few giggles out of it, then that character was not seen again.

Why NOT make it easier? What's a joke character to you may not be to others. I've known people to play as large tomatoes for years on end and everyone else thought it was a joke but he happened to have an amazing backstory and was a fun person to roleplay with.

I'm also tired of "Male" characters in videogames being given less options just because "Men don't wear dresses". Especially when women get pants all the damn time.

I'm also tired of "Male" characters in videogames being given less options just because "Men don't wear dresses". Especially when women get pants all the damn time.

I think many have agreed with you that it should always be an ultimate goal for any game to provide every available costume option to every available character/gender model.

You however remain unable to accept the reality of the situation that 100% compliance with that goal is something that may never be achieved by any game for scores of different logical and legitimate reasons that have nothing to with LGBT bias or discrimination. What's worse is that you seem unappreciative (and even downright hostile) towards games like CoH and CoT which have and will (respectively) probably come closer to your wish for full gender costume equality than any other game out here.

Frankly I think you need stop whining about the 0.001% you don't have yet and be more positive about the 99.999% you do have here. *shrugs*

Hey, guys. Just thought I'd stick my head in. There actually has been discussion about this a few months back. I don't think Zombie was involved in it, but the kilt and bunny tail examples were specifically brought up.

Our ideal goal is that all costume parts cross over. That being said, I've had some severe concerns specifically about bras. Beehive hairdo, heck yeah it's gonna cross over, but the whole 'missing section of chest' concerns me on a technical level. If it were actually cloth, it'd just deflate and be fitted across the chest. Since it's not, we'd have to re-do it to fit.

It's still a goal, but we might have to move from 100% to a little lower. Maybe slide the parts that don't adapt well into an 'expert settings' option. Depends, really, we haven't tried the gender-specific bits yet, we've been focusing on bulking up the unisex options.

I mean, yes, we want to give you the option of all the nice girl hairstyles on your guy (and I have to say one of them from CoH would have made a great Emo look), but we might have to make it a submenu rather than right there in the front tab - people will want to get to the more typical stuff first.

But I remember fondly what someone pulled off with Auntie Opie. Terrifying yet somehow accurate.

Frankly I think you need stop whining about the 0.001% you don't have yet and be more positive about the 99.999% you do have here. *shrugs*

Firstly these percentages are imaginary; you can make a case without bad evidence. I haven't seen any costumes created yet so the things I "do have" are moot and the things I "want to have" are the things I am voicing. Sorry if you take my desires as hostility. I don't quite understand how you can personify me as over-assertive and in the next moment personify me as a whiner. It's okay to simply say "I disagree" and attack the case I'm making for why I believe costumes should all be gender neutral, whether they be hairy women or "frilly" men. I welcome your input as to why you do not find it important and why my case is does not have enough weight to enact a change in the policy of "men won't have women's clothing options in the character creator/tailor".

Why NOT make it easier? What's a joke character to you may not be to others.

Maybe not, but I would see Huges wearing pink leotards and bunny ears etc. for one night, and the jokes and punning never stopped. Then that character would vanish, never to be see again. the joke got old, you see.

Quote:
Sorry if you take my desires as hostility. I don't quite understand how you can personify me as over-assertive and in the next moment personify me as a whiner.
Its because you are replying to people in a very aggressive manner. This makes you seem hostile, as if those who do not agree with you 100% are stupid. We are not.

I've reviewed every post in the thread and have made it a point to look for any personal or broad-based allegations on any poster's person (intelligence, empathy, etc) and found none. I make it a point to argue a point not the person. I strive for laser focus when arguing the claims of my case in ANY internet forum.

I understand people disagree with me, but responding to the continued dialogue of the arguments presented against my case is not aggressive. I am advocating for my case and have presented claims to support it. I do not seek to discredit any person but obviously it is in my interest to discredit their assertions.

I welcome intelligent discourse. My viewpoints on any case I'm presenting to persuade (or dissuade) the devs are clear. I do not and will not attack any part of any person on the forum because it only takes away from my argument.

Spoken like someone who has never seen Return of the Killer Tomatoes. Some are male, some are female, and some are fuzzy.
But at core, you're right. We don't all move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, may not be right for some.

Nope, have only seen the original film. The main thing I remember about "Attack" was huge chagrin at the wasting of literally thousands of poor tomatoes. It was as if a million unmade BLTs cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I feared something terrible had happened. ;p

While you might not intend to Insult your perceived oppugnents, JayBezz, you certainly come of as insulting. Take for example this response to me: "Sure you can draw the line in YOUR mind.. but if you trust others to draw the same line you are either foolish or telepathic.". It also has no relation to my actual post, which was criticising the methology of your argumentation (using falacious arguments like the slippery slope and the straw man). There also seems some tendency to exaggerate the hostility to the subject in others.

And now an anecdote about relativism of gender stereotypes:
In the early days of Greek-Persian relations, the Spartans send a delegation to the Persian court, which was greeted by members of the Immortals. In the end, both sides thought these alledgedly greatest warriors of the other side to be effeminate wimps (with obvious implications about the rest). Why?
.- The Immortals had styled and oiled their hair and beards, wore make-up (which was rather necessary in their climate) and, even worse, trousers! You certainly cannot take someone like that serious!
- The Spartans wore long hair and were cleanly shaved, and to top this of, they wore short red tunics, like the Persian prostitutes! And these claim to be Greece's toughest warriors!

i don't understand the bra or beehive or male character? sure its great to have lots of options and maybe that could be something for future updates , but i think long hair for men is a must for launch i never put the beehive on any female toons i had and i played for the entire run of CoH , and i know i will not need a beehive for men at launch or a bra , but if theres a need later on add it just don't focus on things that will slow the making of a game so needed right now

I've reviewed every post in the thread and have made it a point to look for any personal or broad-based allegations on any poster's person (intelligence, empathy, etc) and found none. I make it a point to argue a point not the person. I strive for laser focus when arguing the claims of my case in ANY internet forum.
I understand people disagree with me, but responding to the continued dialogue of the arguments presented against my case is not aggressive. I am advocating for my case and have presented claims to support it. I do not seek to discredit any person but obviously it is in my interest to discredit their assertions.
I welcome intelligent discourse. My viewpoints on any case I'm presenting to persuade (or dissuade) the devs are clear. I do not and will not attack any part of any person on the forum because it only takes away from my argument.

In principle I believe I'm in total agreement with your fundamental position on this issue. I have always been in favor of getting as many costume options as possible for any character regardless of body size or gender.

The problem I have with your "method of argument" is that you've clearly taken a very unrealistically uncompromising point of view of what you want out of this that will almost by definition leave you unsatisfied and thus lead you towards being negatively critical of a game that's actually going to do its best to give you what you want. Basically you've already implied that you will consider CoT some kind of "disappointing failure" if it doesn't meet the goal of 100% gender costume equaility. Unfortunately (for you perhaps) it'd be virtually impossible for it (or frankly any game) to meet that goal.

What's bad here is that you will likely jump on the few examples that probably won't happen (like what warcabbit said about the technical difficulties of providing bras to male characters) as some kind of "LGBT discrimnation" and scream that this game is "failing to support and cater to your needs" while totally disregarding the facts that the only reason we may not get bras for males may have absoultely nothing to do with "discrimation" and more to do with engineering challenges, budget and Dev resources.

I just don't like the idea that you appear so stridently dedicated to the ideal of costume equality that you won't be willing to cut CoT some slack when they can only provide you with maybe 99.5% of what you want instead of an impossiblity improbable 100%. You do understand that what you're blindly asking for here is needlessly idealistic and ultimately self defeating right?

Bottomline I have every confidence that CoT will do it's best to give you (and everyone else) as much costume equaility as it possbily can. But when it fails to give you 100% (and it will fail because perfection is essentially impossible) I don't want hear people like you QQing that CoT is somehow a "total failure" because of it. If you somehow had the idea that CoT (or frankly any game) could be perfect in this regard you have only yourself to blame for having unrealistic expectations.

JayBezz wrote:

Sorry if you take my desires as hostility. I don't quite understand how you can personify me as over-assertive and in the next moment personify me as a whiner.

I fear it's the very fact that you're far too "over-assertive" on this issue that virtually gaurantees that you'll be a "whiner" when you don't get your way on this.

I think that's going to be a problem with lots of people, Lothic. At least those here on the forums now and not just with costume pieces. It'll be a problem with sliders and powersets.

Well to cast your comment here towards something I'm personally interested in I would admit that I'd be disappointed if CoT doesn't eventually provide something like "chubby slider" options for greater control over character custmization.

But where I think I differ with JayBezz is that if chubby sliders don't happen I'm not going to hyperbolically declare CoT a complete "failure" of a game or become an anti-CoT zealot to disuade other players from giving the game a try because it "failed to live up to the expectations mandated of it by modern social justice" or the like. I frankly fear people like JayBezz will do that if he doesn't get his male beehive hairdos or bras on Day One.

Obviously at this point everyone's hopes and expectations for CoT are a little "ungrounded" because we still know almost nothing about what this game will offer on Launch Day. I'm just hoping I'll be able to moderate any disappointments I have to within reasonable limits regardless of how much anyone else flips-out over misguided pipe dreams.

Basically you've already implied that you will consider CoT some kind of "disappointing failure" if it doesn't meet the goal of 100% gender costume equaility. Unfortunately (for you perhaps) it'd be virtually impossible for it (or frankly any game) to meet that goal.

I cited my dissapointment for their failure to have a blanket statement of inclusion. I never make the claim that the game will BE a failure.

Lothic wrote:

What's bad here is that you will likely jump on the few examples that probably won't happen (like what warcabbit said about the technical difficulties of providing bras to male characters) as some kind of "LGBT discrimnation" and scream that this game is "failing to support and cater to your needs" while totally disregarding the facts that the only reason we may not get bras for males may have absoultely nothing to do with "discrimation" and more to do with engineering challenges, budget and Dev resources.

While I do personally find it discriminatory (being an occasional transvestite), I have not cited this possible decision as discrimination. I've stated that it is not inclusive to a rapidly growing demographic (gaymers) that seek representation. I speak nothing of budget as the labor is "volunteer" and the argument of dev resources was brought up in opposition to my stance, not in my argument.

Lothic wrote:

I just don't like the idea that you appear so stridently dedicated to the ideal of costume equality that you won't be willing to cut CoT some slack when they can only provide you with maybe 99.5% of what you want instead of an impossiblity improbable 100%.

The way you are forming your argument I find quite troubling, but that has much more to do with me than you, yes?While I understand that you don't like it. Whether you do or do not "Like" what I have to say, it has little consequence on how I form an argument, if that is in fact what you find problematic.

Lothic wrote:

You do understand that what you're blindly asking for here is needlessly idealistic and ultimately self defeating right?

Disagree categorically.

Lothic wrote:

Bottomline I have every confidence that CoT will do it's best to give you (and everyone else) as much costume equaility as it possbily can. But when it fails to give you 100% (and it will fail because perfection is essentially impossible) I don't want hear people like you QQing that CoT is somehow a "total failure" because of it. If you somehow had the idea that CoT (or frankly any game) could be perfect in this regard you have only yourself to blame for having unrealistic expectations.

You make some bold assertions on my character with zero evidence. Who is "people like you"? Who claimed "total failure"? When did I assert my expectations? I simply stated, defined, and attempted to persuade my desires. Desires are not expectations.

Lothic wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
Sorry if you take my desires as hostility. I don't quite understand how you can personify me as over-assertive and in the next moment personify me as a whiner.

I fear it's the very fact that you're far too "over-assertive" on this issue that virtually gaurantees that you'll be a "whiner" when you don't get your way on this.

Your concern is noted but I my assertiveness is your opinion and not a fact. You've based your argument on your feelings and opinion and frankly the Pathos argument generally tends to favor the under-served so using an emotional appeal based on your feelings does not serve you in dissuading. Your attempts to personify me as a "whiner" are baseless, and we do not know who will get their way. The developers are judge, jury and executive and it's to them I've made my appeal and for them that I consistently and ardently reject your assertions.

I just don't like the idea that you appear so stridently dedicated to the ideal of costume equality that you won't be willing to cut CoT some slack when they can only provide you with maybe 99.5% of what you want instead of an impossiblity improbable 100%. You do understand that what you're blindly asking for here is needlessly idealistic and ultimately self defeating right?

The common description for this is 'making the perfect the enemy of the good'. Most often encountered when someone claims that if something cannot be done with 100% perfection, with no flaws or faults, then it's a failure no matter how much better the proposed solution is than the status quo. Also often included is the position that if something cannot be done perfectly, then there is no point in doing it at all.

So... getting back to the actual topic of this thread, and reviving it like an idiot.
I would like to see:
- all hairstyles available across all genders (or lack thereof) - but that's been well covered in a strange discussion where it seems people are hell-bent on creating an unnecessary argument in the sake of having the last word....
- Dreadlocks that didn't suck, long dreadlocks loose and dreadlocks tied up (pony tail, maybe a topknot type looking thing)
- better/more Mohawk styles.
- better Pigtails
- For beards I'd like to see a good diversity of styles, especially the well-trimmed, the full beard, and the full-on grizzly adams look (looking to make a Villain called "Lumber Jack" with a big ole' bushy beard, but have a well-trimmed one for my main character)
- For facial hair to look like facial hair and not look like some weird prosthetic or to look "painted on" - but if push comes to shove, I'd rather see "painted on" facial hair than weird prosthetic...

And I would like to point out that none of these are necessary to a game's initial launch. They could be incorporated over time as the game gains traction and the brand builds.

Also - the whole LGBTQ argument/discussion crap needs to stop. First of all, this isn't the thread for it and all it does is create clutter on the boards. Secondly, replying to any argumentative post never "finishes" or "resolves" the argument on the internet. You all know this, you've all seen it happen and laughed at people for arguing on the internet - and now you're involved in one. Congratulations.
I would ask that the Dev's remove these argumentative posts (including their own, if any) that continue this pointless discussion of... whatever it is, misogyny, trans-phobia, or whatever ya'll are yammering on about.

For what it's worth you're the one who necroposted to this thread after 11 days of silence. In doing so you could have just as easily only talked about your suggestions for hair as opposed to re-mentioning "the whole LGBTQ argument/discussion crap" yourself.

If the Devs were going to bother to remove the "argumentative posts" as you put it they'd pretty much have to start with yours. *shrugs*

Do not forget hair colors and patterns. There are a number of anime characters who's left side is a different color then there right side Or the lightning bolts and streaks through the hair.
Some people are going to want stark contrasts and other might want that blended color effect.

Being a man of, lets say "distinguished" years, I'd like to see the option of salt & pepper hair colors. Think Dr Strange or Reid Richards. Also more than just one biker look. Something like a braided ponytail as well as regular, and maybe the biker do-rag or bandanna to boot.

I think that just letting the models not go past androgynous would be ideal, though not every female or male piece could be equated to crossdressing, seeing how skirts are likened to kilts and mohawks are actually a fashionable female hairstyle in many cyberpunk scenes. I think we should just try avoiding the most explicit examples than cannot be interpreted as anything other than drag, like bras on gentlemen who don't have gynecomastia.

That's the interesting thing about languages - while they all have the same general sets of rules, the specifics of those rules vary almost as much as a person's given beliefs (and according to the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, is potentially a key reason *behind* that variation). So what is true for English is certainly not true for other languages - however, since language originates in a specific portion of the human brain, that may not actually be an absolute, neurologically speaking. Not being a neuroscientist, I can't speak to that.

Given the demographic make-up of the development team, as well as the size of relative markets, I don't think anyone has good reason to question our working entirely in English for the moment (while we do have localization teams who will translate material into specific languages, they need us to actually produce content for them to translate in order to actively function). If you are honestly curious about the specifics of a rule as it relates to a given language, ask a linguist.... but be prepared to sit for very lengthy lectures.

—

It is only when we stand up, with all our failings and sufferings, and try to support others rather than withdraw into ourselves, that we can fully live the life of community.

I might be a little late to the pony show for this one but I'd like to interject my two sense from everything I've read.

On hairstyle points:
I don't realy see why their should be any reason to separate hairstyle options at all. Sure some people will see men with pigtails as silly honestly I kind-of think it is too but thats just because I imagine a big bulky dude with pig tails, but to each his/her own. Beards for women is fine too, it exists in real life and if someone wants to make a female dwarf do we want to say no? Finally as a guy who things Mohawks on women are attractive (Have you seen storms Mohawk look?) I think its a must.
On the whole lets not have genders I think thats a bit unfair. What about the people who want to play male or female (The majority of players, I would think) why should they have to go through hours trying to make their character look like the correct gender (Especial when they will likely not be able to succeed duo to the limits the technology will undoubtedly have) It seems like a big request with little to no payoff. However having a genderless body type could be realy cool. As a guy who likes angelic characters it could be pretty neat (Angels have no gender) it could also be used for genderless Aliens and obviously Transsexual. (You could also say I'm a bit Leary of the gender sliders as I'm afraid some people would use them to make sexual charged characters that could make the game more "Mature" and sexually charged, or make purposefully silly characters to mock transsexuals as a sort of cruel joke, which isn't realy what I'm looking for in a game.) I guess I'm looking for something a bit more wholesome (not filled with sexual references and in-jokes, that attract that immature element) I'd love for everyone to be able to enjoy this game and make the character they want but do we want. But I think their are better ways to do that that removing genders altogether.

On hairstyle points:
I don't realy see why their should be any reason to separate hairstyle options at all. Sure some people will see men with pigtails as silly honestly I kind-of think it is too but thats just because I imagine a big bulky dude with pig tails, but to each his/her own. Beards for women is fine too, it exists in real life and if someone wants to make a female dwarf do we want to say no? Finally as a guy who things Mohawks on women are attractive (Have you seen storms Mohawk look?) I think its a must.
On the whole lets not have genders I think thats a bit unfair. What about the people who want to play male or female (The majority of players, I would think) why should they have to go through hours trying to make their character look like the correct gender (Especial when they will likely not be able to succeed duo to the limits the technology will undoubtedly have) It seems like a big request with little to no payoff. However having a genderless body type could be realy cool. As a guy who likes angelic characters it could be pretty neat (Angels have no gender) it could also be used for genderless Aliens and obviously Transsexual. (You could also say I'm a bit Leary of the gender sliders as I'm afraid some people would use them to make sexual charged characters that could make the game more "Mature" and sexually charged, or make purposefully silly characters to mock transsexuals as a sort of cruel joke, which isn't realy what I'm looking for in a game.) I guess I'm looking for something a bit more wholesome (not filled with sexual references and in-jokes, that attract that immature element) I'd love for everyone to be able to enjoy this game and make the character they want but do we want. But I think their are better ways to do that that removing genders altogether.

It's already been established in other threads that CoT will in fact have dedicated "male" and "female" body models instead of trying to go with a single androgynous model for all characters. The decision to go that route apparently had more to do with practical polygon counts and graphics rendering concerns than it did with any philosophical metagaming concerns or real world gender issues.

What this means is that there's the very real (and very likely) possibility that when all is said and done there will in fact be a small handful of hairstyles that'll get implemented for one body model that (for whatever engineering reasons) will not be immediately translatable to the other model. This "hairstyle inequality" won't exist because the Devs will WANT it to exist or because it'll be a part of some grandiose conspiracy to maintain some kind of grudge against the LGBT community or the like. It'll happen simply because Devs ALWAYS have to prioritize their efforts when creating software and things like this ALWAYS slip through the cracks.

Therefore while I hope (and strongly suspect) the CoT Devs will do their very best to make sure as many costume/hair options are available for both the male and female body models I will not lose one second of sleep or be unduly upset in the least when we learn that they didn't live up to the impossible pipe-dream of 100% equality in this area.

Pbuckley wrote:

And FYI everyone male or female looks silly in a Beehive.

I'll grant you Beehives are definitely not in fashion at the moment. But during their heyday there were some pretty good looking examples. For example in the late Sixties no one would have said Yeoman Rand looked "silly" like this:

For what it's worth people 50 years from now will almost certainly consider the styles of today to be "silly" to them. ;)

I'll grant you Beehives are definitely not in fashion at the moment. But during their heyday there were some pretty good looking examples. For example in the late Sixties no one would have said Yeoman Rand looked "silly" like this:

For what it's worth people 50 years from now will almost certainly consider the styles of today to be "silly" to them. ;)

I consider some of them to be silly now. Especially the one that some youngsters wear that make them look like a Lego man with the piece for hair turned about 90 degrees from front. Then again, I'm old. :-)

It's already been established in other threads that CoT will in fact have dedicated "male" and "female" body models instead of trying to go with a single androgynous model for all characters. The decision to go that route apparently had more to do with practical polygon counts and graphics rendering concerns than it did with any philosophical metagaming concerns or real world gender issues.

And there is a good chance that by playing with the sliders on the male or female body androgynous characters would be possible.

—

-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!

And there is a good chance that by playing with the sliders on the male or female body androgynous characters would be possible.

true, females might take a few more polygons. (ehh, when i model, i put too many verts in the front, errr, and the back, err, and the ... NM) :)
...and older rigs might not have been able to perform as well.

So a Raid with 200 female characters (year 2004) would run at 10 fps.. where a raid with 200 Male characters would have run at 12 to 13 fps? All because of the number of Vertices. :)

I guess Unreal Engine 4, and this day and age: CPU's, and GPU's, Graphics RAM... might perform 20 times as good, but only as long as the Shaders arent taxed to Death.. otherwise, the same kind of restrictions are still present. :/ But im sure we can specify the Graphics Quality in the options most likely. ;D

Im still waiting to be impressed by todays games in regards to the use of pre-Baked Textures (static lights already added). if not in the open world, at least in a confined area. even if its just One room... so it looks like it was a ray traced rendering. :D
Ehh... i guess thats what shaders are striving to do, more and more, make it look ray trace rendered almost. Maybe in 10 years we will achieve something on that level. :P

The plus side of having one mesh model.. and Morphing the Vertices into a Male, Female.. is that the same costume pieces that go over the body can be reused, but would need 2 separate Morphs Targets.. male and female, so chest pieces can be made to contour correctly. And the Chest area is a good example, since the topology can change drastically, compared to other areas. Well, for this game at least, its mostly the Chest area that would need to implement, not the Other area. ;)

1. Get a LIFE, or Just go Outside.
2. Get a Girlfriend. Break up with Girlfriend, then get a new Girlfriend.
3. Get into CosPlay. Realize how silly you look.. and Do it MOAAR! ;)
4. Get back into Comics. Realize how most story-lines Suck now that your older... and set out to find DECENT ones.
5. Get into DVD's, if your not into it Already. Realize how much money your wasting.. they try looking online for Torrents. :O
6. ... enter yours here ...

I just had to come in to ask one thing of the devs - please take ethnicity into consideration when developing hairstyles! Too often I've been restricted to using one single style in game, SWTOR and Wildstar, I'm looking at you.

I just had to come in to ask one thing of the devs - please take ethnicity into consideration when developing hairstyles! Too often I've been restricted to using one single style in game, SWTOR and Wildstar, I'm looking at you.

bythepowercosmic wrote:
I just had to come in to ask one thing of the devs - please take ethnicity into consideration when developing hairstyles! Too often I've been restricted to using one single style in game, SWTOR and Wildstar, I'm looking at you.

Quickly back to the topic at hand: I am not against the idea of more types of long hair for guys but I think pigtails and the like will make our game look like a joke in the eyes of some. I may be wrong, but I would raise an eyebrow at any game that gives that option.

Godling wrote:

Quote:

The Ballet of Death
I am ten foot tall and bullet proof, I have a huge ax dripping from my enemies blood. I can breathe fireballs and lightning bolts come from my eyes. Even without that I can still bloody beached you with a ballet kick. I am a real man and real men were tights. I do not need to hide behind some, sissy, girly boy armor.

You have a problem with pigtails on guys, you tell it to Kenshiro Thor!

I have no inherent problem with full cross-gender options for players' appearance, provided the person that's making the convention-breaking costume is willing to accept the consequences of that choice.

However, as Lothic has repeatedly pointed out, there still are cultural conventions, and along with the resource prioritizing, there's marketing and litigation issues with bullying and harassment due to GIFT. MWM is trying to make a successful product, and they may need to compromise the purity of some ideals to achieve that end. Societal perception and traditions is a huge part of that, for better or worse.