What is the mid to long term future of professional rugby in countries like Scotland, Italy, Ireland, and Wales?

The news yesterday of another mammoth financial deal for the English means that they and the French have moved from being streets ahead to a level above, although the deal was more structural than product generated. But what with their tv deals and the like they have resources that nobody else in the Northern Hemisphere can touch. The organisers of the Guinness League can talk about American and Spanish clubs joining until the cows come home, but that is not going to make a dent in the gap between the Franglais and everybody else. So my question is twofold:

1) Where do you see the Celtic nations' domestic sides AND national sides in say 5 - 7 years time?2) Is anybody actually worried about this, or should we let the powers that be sort it out?

Dai, I think the best we'll be able to do is hang on to the coattails and work at unearthing new talent.

The national sides will probably stay reasonably competitive as there's still going to be enough funding and support to develop players to a decent level, that said more of them will move to England/France than staying the Pro12, so the unions will have to start working around the English/French release dates or put some release clauses into contracts before players go overseas - what's glaringly obvious is that we can't follow the RFU and insist that players stay in their home competition to get international qualification - to a point we will go the way of the international soccer teams with most players playing outside their home country.

At club level the picture is more difficult, my take is that the Irish and Welsh will be able to field reasonably competitive first teams but where we'll lose out is in squad depth, where Saracens or Toulon will be able to replace players on a "like for like" basis to cover injuries or suspensions, the PRO12 sides will have to hope that the squad players are able to step up and do a job.

You're right that adding clubs outside the current structure will make little difference, any extra TV money will be lost in travelling costs and player wear and tear, so the best that can be done is to persevere with the situation as is.

Hopefully the powers that be will see this, and the new RFU agreement will now put to bed any dreams of GB&I or Anglo-Welsh leagues and minds will be more concentrated on making the best of what we have rather than looking over the border for a solution that is not coming.

As a block of 4 Unions in Europe, they would have a fair amount of voting powers to make sure they are not forgotten.

However, welsh on here show that they align themselves with the English.

There are also attacks in the media towards Italy to remove them from the 6Ns a key step to weakening their strength in negotiations.

That brings a 4 Union block down to 2 unions.

On the other side, whether by design or folly, the English and French unions have relinquished portions of their control to PRL and LNR. So the Franglais have shifted from 2 seats at table to 4.

Couple in the doubts for the welsh to stay part of the voting bloc and it ends up being 3.5 versus 4.5 or an Italian relegation to give 2.5 vs 4.5.

7-10 years I see the above being achieved, Ireland and Scotland being peripheral both domestic and national. Italy being pushed out of 6N and euro comps. Welsh having teams in the Championship (Cardiff/Dragons) /Premiership (Osprey/Scarlets), not having extra out of window internationals. England to have 14 Premiership teams in a ringfenced competition. The French to have 16 teams with relegation. French Test side to be poor.

People always seem a little surprised by all these incremental developments in particularly the English game. It comes, I suppose, from a genuinely held belief at the time of those Big European debates and wars, that the RFU genuinely was what it often projected itself publically as being - and that is a neutral observer/facilitator.

The idea at the time, heavily pushed by the RFU CEO Ian Ritchie, was that the RFU wanted only a solution that would assist all partners in this European Rugby debate - the Three Leagues and the Six Rugby Nations involved. It supposedly had no vested interests only the noble cause of finding a solution that would satisfy the common interests of all.

But of course, that was all bluff. The RFU, by its very definition, could never have been 'neutral' - was never neutral. It and it's Professional Nation club League administrator (PRL), were attempting to create an environment that would best serve the interests of the development of rugby within its own administration sphere - with a particular objective to more fully engage in competitiveness against Top14 at club level, and to better compete against the top three SH sides at International level.

It's everyone for themselves and no one is going to be looking out for the interest of any other Unions or any other Nation's clubs. It's a war - and it's ongoing (as comments now about the Six Nation's schedule and a common World Season proves). It's of course a war too where the most powerful flex their muscles and use supposedly endless streams of funding to make it quite a bloody affair for struggling lesser and smaller armies.

The English don't need or desire the Fringe 'Celtic' nations to assist in competing against the French. They and the French would quite like many of their better players and coaches though - and that carrot or fish bait pressure will only increase. The plan that began with the ending of the ERC is working perfectly both for the French and most especially now, the English.

Pot Hale wrote:The Premiership has signed an agreement with the English Rugby Union to get monies for development of English rugby players.

In effect, the clubs continue to need the support of the Union's finances.

So it's more about the future for the clubs.

If there is to be further change then a European super league with 10-12 teams initially - coming from Great Britain, France, and Ireland - is the better way forward.

I don't think it is a 'begging letter' news story, Pot. I think it's yet another public sign of the tail wagging the dog. The PRL is flexing those commercial muscles and demanding that everything the RFU wants comes with an offer on the table that makes even talking worthwhile. They are showing where the power is transferring to.

Pot Hale wrote:The Premiership has signed an agreement with the English Rugby Union to get monies for development of English rugby players.

In effect, the clubs continue to need the support of the Union's finances.

So it's more about the future for the clubs.

If there is to be further change then a European super league with 10-12 teams initially - coming from Great Britain, France, and Ireland - is the better way forward.

I don't think it is a 'begging letter' news story, Pot. I think it's yet another public sign of the tail wagging the dog. The PRL is flexing those commercial muscles and demanding that everything the RFU wants comes with an offer on the table that makes even talking worthwhile. They are showing where the power is transferring to.

I wasn't saying it was, Mr Secretfly. The PRL is in danger of imploding as the gap between the top "rich" clubs and the rest within the league widens. And as it distances itself further from the Championship sides within English rugby. The ERFU should just sit there nodding agreeably and watch what happens.

Just waiting for Phil to arrive to either explain how this is great news for Welsh rugby as it means that the English are getting ever closer to inviting them in at the end of the next eight years, or to blame Ireland for once again screwing things up for Welsh rugby so that the English have had to settle for splitting the millions among themselves when they were desperate to invite the Welsh to the party, or possibly both ?

Irish Londoner wrote:You're right that adding clubs outside the current structure will make little difference, any extra TV money will be lost in travelling costs and player wear and tear, so the best that can be done is to persevere with the situation as is.

I don't think travelling costs will be an issue. All it will mean is one trip to the States once a year for the team. It will be expensive though on any US franchise (like it is for the Italians at the moment).

The future of the English game was decided many years ago when the RFU stepped back from centrally contracting players. The RFU knew then that it was unaffordable and a financial dead end over the long term.

The clubs having taken on the salary exposure , when most did not have stadium ownership, have had to take a long term view. The RFU paying for access to selected players is simply a commercial transaction that the RFU also use to incentivise EQ player production and clearly would like 100% but recognise in an entertainment business, players from elsewhere, to provide glitter is inevitable.

The problem for these other Unions is circular in that restricting the number of teams does not generate enough financial interest and divest risk and conversely introduces huge strategic risk when playing results from elite teams still do not win silverware.

The Euro comps were seen as Eldorado and the Union's priority over a league and they initially gained preferential finance and qualification for Pro12 sides. That was never going to last and many on here suggest that now gives English/French an unfair representation but the alternative is to reduce the number of clubs and that just means reduced financial reward for all - it is a non starter. The Pro12 did miss a trick I believe in that rather than ignore the inevitable on finance should have pushed for one single euro competition which would have increased profile for those franchises that did not qualify and enabled top sides to avoid each other in pools and then meet in the knockout stages which raises the winning probabilities substantially.

The RFU have all but stated that their target is the SH Test dominance, the other NH Unions just provide 6N income and will continue to do so win, lose or draw because of tradition etc.

The Pro12 Unions have painted themselves into a corner with a relatively short term dash for cash with Euro comps and neglected their League for far too long.Any league with stars from four International sides has no excuse.

Having followed the Oz cricket model they have to now see out the Oz model and perhaps restrict any player with less than 50 caps from playing outside their Test nation if they want to play international rugby. Having said that, players can rack up fifty caps remarkably quickly these days with Unions needing Test fixtures to fund their shaky top down structures. The whole thing when you throw in the global seasonal structure is a mess.

The Pro12 Unions have painted themselves into a corner with a relatively short term dash for cash with Euro comps and neglected their League for far too long.Any league with stars from four International sides has no excuse.

Except having the Two most Wealthy Leagues in the world, and the two most densely populated/sponsor-rich Leagues in the world right on their doorstep.

Irish Londoner wrote: the new RFU agreement will now put to bed any dreams of GB&I or Anglo-Welsh leagues.

Is this RFU agreement on condition of the Aviva Premeirship remaining in place then?

I honestly don't know, but equally there's no mention of it not being in place for the next eight years and short of a massive influx of money to the Regions I can foresee no circumstances under which the English clubs would want to take the Welsh (or Irish or anyone else on board).

Irish Londoner wrote: the new RFU agreement will now put to bed any dreams of GB&I or Anglo-Welsh leagues.

Is this RFU agreement on condition of the Aviva Premeirship remaining in place then?

I honestly don't know, but equally there's no mention of it not being in place for the next eight years and short of a massive influx of money to the Regions I can foresee no circumstances under which the English clubs would want to take the Welsh (or Irish or anyone else on board).

I'm not sure the competition the English clubs are in has any relevance to this new 8 year deal, as it's about player release for international duty, academies and player welfare. I may be wrong though.

But they have no need to look to anything else. This deal, the tv deal. I can see the benefits for others trying to get in, what is there for those clubs who now have a pretty sweet deal bar sharing the wealth and power?

It certainly is a fact of life Secret, but given the poor use of the Pro12's greatest asset, it is surely better than not having this jewel - which the way it is going is looking increasingly and sadly, likely.

Irish Londoner wrote: the new RFU agreement will now put to bed any dreams of GB&I or Anglo-Welsh leagues.

Is this RFU agreement on condition of the Aviva Premeirship remaining in place then?

I honestly don't know, but equally there's no mention of it not being in place for the next eight years and short of a massive influx of money to the Regions I can foresee no circumstances under which the English clubs would want to take the Welsh (or Irish or anyone else on board).

It's a fair question though. If the ERFU felt that adding other teams into a revised Premiership affected their objectives of developing English players and growing the game within England then they could rightly object.

Maybe the IRFU should seek to create an Irish-English team league - they'd have more to offer in terms of competitive sides, pedigree, good attendances, travelling fans, etc.

I thought this deal was made months ago. Maybe it was but they've just announced it now.

The pro 12 is taking steps to compete now. I'd agree with the poster who said they are leaving it late and were happy to rely on HEC money for too long but at least they're getting the ball rolling now.

They've accepted that they can't compete in the short to medium term but there are positives in that. They now can concentrate on expanding the pro 12 and developing higher quality players themselves. The pressure to win the champions cup is off (from an Irish point of view) so they have room to develop youth players etc.

The pro 12 has the potential to morph into something much bigger, down the line. That might be 10+ years away but it is what it is. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if you want the rewards you have to put in the time an effort into something. People calling for Italian teams exclusion from the pro 12 are being very short sighted. They havn't made much progress yet but that was because of all the uncertainties surrounding their involvement in the league a few years back so they had to practically start from scratch a year or two ago.

profitius wrote:I thought this deal was made months ago. Maybe it was but they've just announced it now.

The pro 12 is taking steps to compete now. I'd agree with the poster who said they are leaving it late and were happy to rely on HEC money for too long but at least they're getting the ball rolling now.

They've accepted that they can't compete in the short to medium term but there are positives in that. They now can concentrate on expanding the pro 12 and developing higher quality players themselves. The pressure to win the champions cup is off (from an Irish point of view) so they have room to develop youth players etc.

The pro 12 has the potential to morph into something much bigger, down the line. That might be 10+ years away but it is what it is. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if you want the rewards you have to put in the time an effort into something. People calling for Italian teams exclusion from the pro 12 are being very short sighted. They havn't made much progress yet but that was because of all the uncertainties surrounding their involvement in the league a few years back so they had to practically start from scratch a year or two ago.

If the Franglais put any more time and effort in over the next 10 years we'd still be ffwcd

profitius wrote:I thought this deal was made months ago. Maybe it was but they've just announced it now.

The pro 12 is taking steps to compete now. I'd agree with the poster who said they are leaving it late and were happy to rely on HEC money for too long but at least they're getting the ball rolling now.

They've accepted that they can't compete in the short to medium term but there are positives in that. They now can concentrate on expanding the pro 12 and developing higher quality players themselves. The pressure to win the champions cup is off (from an Irish point of view) so they have room to develop youth players etc.

The pro 12 has the potential to morph into something much bigger, down the line. That might be 10+ years away but it is what it is. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if you want the rewards you have to put in the time an effort into something. People calling for Italian teams exclusion from the pro 12 are being very short sighted. They havn't made much progress yet but that was because of all the uncertainties surrounding their involvement in the league a few years back so they had to practically start from scratch a year or two ago.

What would you envisage that being, which could compete with the Franglais?

Fly, one of the things about Britain/England inventing so many things is that they have no national prefix as being the first they weren't needed as identifiers:The Open ChampionshipThe Royal NavyThe Royal Air ForceThe Football AssociationThe Rugby Football UnionThe Professional Golfers AssociationEtc.

profitius wrote:I thought this deal was made months ago. Maybe it was but they've just announced it now.

The pro 12 is taking steps to compete now. I'd agree with the poster who said they are leaving it late and were happy to rely on HEC money for too long but at least they're getting the ball rolling now.

They've accepted that they can't compete in the short to medium term but there are positives in that. They now can concentrate on expanding the pro 12 and developing higher quality players themselves. The pressure to win the champions cup is off (from an Irish point of view) so they have room to develop youth players etc.

The pro 12 has the potential to morph into something much bigger, down the line. That might be 10+ years away but it is what it is. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if you want the rewards you have to put in the time an effort into something. People calling for Italian teams exclusion from the pro 12 are being very short sighted. They havn't made much progress yet but that was because of all the uncertainties surrounding their involvement in the league a few years back so they had to practically start from scratch a year or two ago.

What would you envisage that being, which could compete with the Franglais?

Expansion to other European countries. Didn't the Spanish recently get 25k for their club final. Thats a hell of a crowd for that standard and shows the potential that there is abroad. Even getting a small percentage places like Spain interested in rugby can bring big rewards.

profitius wrote:I thought this deal was made months ago. Maybe it was but they've just announced it now.

The pro 12 is taking steps to compete now. I'd agree with the poster who said they are leaving it late and were happy to rely on HEC money for too long but at least they're getting the ball rolling now.

They've accepted that they can't compete in the short to medium term but there are positives in that. They now can concentrate on expanding the pro 12 and developing higher quality players themselves. The pressure to win the champions cup is off (from an Irish point of view) so they have room to develop youth players etc.

The pro 12 has the potential to morph into something much bigger, down the line. That might be 10+ years away but it is what it is. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if you want the rewards you have to put in the time an effort into something. People calling for Italian teams exclusion from the pro 12 are being very short sighted. They havn't made much progress yet but that was because of all the uncertainties surrounding their involvement in the league a few years back so they had to practically start from scratch a year or two ago.

What would you envisage that being, which could compete with the Franglais?

Expansion to other European countries. Didn't the Spanish recently get 25k for their club final. Thats a hell of a crowd for that standard and shows the potential that there is abroad. Even getting a small percentage places like Spain interested in rugby can bring big rewards.

Do you think this will make a dent in the gap between the Pro12 and Aviva / Top14?

Irish Londoner wrote:Fly, one of the things about Britain/England inventing so many things is that they have no national prefix as being the first they weren't needed as identifiers:The Open ChampionshipThe Royal NavyThe Royal Air ForceThe Football AssociationThe Rugby Football UnionThe Professional Golfers AssociationEtc.

I don't think any of those have the definite article in their title.

Leaving that aside, modern day media usage tends to include a country identifier in writing e.g.

English FA names Sam Allardyce as new manager of the English ...The English FA Have Contacted Liverpool Legend Steven Gerrard ...Rob Andrew to quit as English Rugby Football Union's professional ...English rugby union angry over exclusion from European Cup talks ...English RFU agree eight-year deal with Premiership RugbyBristol considering legal action against English Rugby Football UnionEnglish RFU set to resist 6 Nations change

It's no big thing, names/titles have changed/modified since the late 1800s.

profitius wrote:I thought this deal was made months ago. Maybe it was but they've just announced it now.

The pro 12 is taking steps to compete now. I'd agree with the poster who said they are leaving it late and were happy to rely on HEC money for too long but at least they're getting the ball rolling now.

They've accepted that they can't compete in the short to medium term but there are positives in that. They now can concentrate on expanding the pro 12 and developing higher quality players themselves. The pressure to win the champions cup is off (from an Irish point of view) so they have room to develop youth players etc.

The pro 12 has the potential to morph into something much bigger, down the line. That might be 10+ years away but it is what it is. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if you want the rewards you have to put in the time an effort into something. People calling for Italian teams exclusion from the pro 12 are being very short sighted. They havn't made much progress yet but that was because of all the uncertainties surrounding their involvement in the league a few years back so they had to practically start from scratch a year or two ago.

What would you envisage that being, which could compete with the Franglais?

Compete with them on what though, Dowellai? The less than stellar European Cup?

profitius wrote:I thought this deal was made months ago. Maybe it was but they've just announced it now.

The pro 12 is taking steps to compete now. I'd agree with the poster who said they are leaving it late and were happy to rely on HEC money for too long but at least they're getting the ball rolling now.

They've accepted that they can't compete in the short to medium term but there are positives in that. They now can concentrate on expanding the pro 12 and developing higher quality players themselves. The pressure to win the champions cup is off (from an Irish point of view) so they have room to develop youth players etc.

The pro 12 has the potential to morph into something much bigger, down the line. That might be 10+ years away but it is what it is. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if you want the rewards you have to put in the time an effort into something. People calling for Italian teams exclusion from the pro 12 are being very short sighted. They havn't made much progress yet but that was because of all the uncertainties surrounding their involvement in the league a few years back so they had to practically start from scratch a year or two ago.

What would you envisage that being, which could compete with the Franglais?

Compete with them on what though, Dowellai? The less than stellar European Cup?

You need to ask Profitus, it was he/she who said that "The pro 12 is taking steps to compete now" and "The pro 12 has the potential to morph into something much bigger, down the line"

I'd like to ask the same question as you really. Because as far as I can tell, the Pro12 doesn't really have a hope of competing with it's nearest and dearest in any shape or form, and quite how Spanish and American teams coming on board will make a dent is anyone's guess.

Do you think this will make a dent in the gap between the Pro12 and Aviva / Top14?

No. But it's like asking a Welsh man how long does it take him to recognise he isn't as well off as the people of Qatar. He isn't as wealthy but he's still Welsh, not from Qatar. He has to try to survive as best he can.

In terms of bringing in money Germany - Doesn't really have a Outdoor team sport other than Football. Spain - Similar to Germany. USA - Have loads of sporting options though but they do have a huge population. Canada - Not quite as hard to compete compared to America but still have compeition.

profitius wrote:I thought this deal was made months ago. Maybe it was but they've just announced it now.

The pro 12 is taking steps to compete now. I'd agree with the poster who said they are leaving it late and were happy to rely on HEC money for too long but at least they're getting the ball rolling now.

They've accepted that they can't compete in the short to medium term but there are positives in that. They now can concentrate on expanding the pro 12 and developing higher quality players themselves. The pressure to win the champions cup is off (from an Irish point of view) so they have room to develop youth players etc.

The pro 12 has the potential to morph into something much bigger, down the line. That might be 10+ years away but it is what it is. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if you want the rewards you have to put in the time an effort into something. People calling for Italian teams exclusion from the pro 12 are being very short sighted. They havn't made much progress yet but that was because of all the uncertainties surrounding their involvement in the league a few years back so they had to practically start from scratch a year or two ago.

What would you envisage that being, which could compete with the Franglais?

Expansion to other European countries. Didn't the Spanish recently get 25k for their club final. Thats a hell of a crowd for that standard and shows the potential that there is abroad. Even getting a small percentage places like Spain interested in rugby can bring big rewards.

Do you think this will make a dent in the gap between the Pro12 and Aviva / Top14?

I think the Pro 12 can expand to become a Super Rugby-esque tournament in future (but with far more commercial reach). Eventually Spain (Barcelona/Madrid), Portugal (Lisbon), Germany (Munich/Frankfurt), Georgia (Tbilisi) and Romania (Bucharest) can all have national teams playing in 2 divisions of Pro 10. Scheduling is key as right now the Pro 12 has 9 teams that lose the same or more internationals to their home nations than the leading English or French teams (based on summer tours).

Italy is the future of the Pro 12 at the moment though. I think they screwed up not putting a team in Rome however there is a lot of potential and a population that is similar in size to France and England.

As for competing with the English and French, in the short run the club game will be theirs. In the long run, who knows.

Irish Londoner wrote:Fly, one of the things about Britain/England inventing so many things is that they have no national prefix as being the first they weren't needed as identifiers:The Open ChampionshipThe Royal NavyThe Royal Air ForceThe Football AssociationThe Rugby Football UnionThe Professional Golfers AssociationEtc.

I don't think any of those have the definite article in their title.

Leaving that aside, modern day media usage tends to include a country identifier in writing e.g.

English FA names Sam Allardyce as new manager of the English ...The English FA Have Contacted Liverpool Legend Steven Gerrard ...Rob Andrew to quit as English Rugby Football Union's professional ...English rugby union angry over exclusion from European Cup talks ...English RFU agree eight-year deal with Premiership RugbyBristol considering legal action against English Rugby Football UnionEnglish RFU set to resist 6 Nations change

It's no big thing, names/titles have changed/modified since the late 1800s.

As they haven't changed their name it would suggest you're just a chippy Irishman however!

Irish Londoner wrote:Fly, one of the things about Britain/England inventing so many things is that they have no national prefix as being the first they weren't needed as identifiers:The Open ChampionshipThe Royal NavyThe Royal Air ForceThe Football AssociationThe Rugby Football UnionThe Professional Golfers AssociationEtc.

I don't think any of those have the definite article in their title.

Leaving that aside, modern day media usage tends to include a country identifier in writing e.g.

English FA names Sam Allardyce as new manager of the English ...The English FA Have Contacted Liverpool Legend Steven Gerrard ...Rob Andrew to quit as English Rugby Football Union's professional ...English rugby union angry over exclusion from European Cup talks ...English RFU agree eight-year deal with Premiership RugbyBristol considering legal action against English Rugby Football UnionEnglish RFU set to resist 6 Nations change

It's no big thing, names/titles have changed/modified since the late 1800s.

As they haven't changed their name it would suggest you're just a chippy Irishman however!

Jeez, 7.5 - I'm not saying they have. I'm saying that custom, times, culture, etc change things including the names that people give to things or how they qualify them.

Take the name of the country Ireland. To people living in the Republic of Ireland, it's just called Ireland. To others, it's called the South, Southern Ireland, Eire, Free State, etc, etc. The London Times (as opposed to The Irish Times ) calls it the Republic of Ireland or the Irish republic. The EU calls it Ireland. It all depends on where you live and what you're used to.

profitius wrote:I thought this deal was made months ago. Maybe it was but they've just announced it now.

The pro 12 is taking steps to compete now. I'd agree with the poster who said they are leaving it late and were happy to rely on HEC money for too long but at least they're getting the ball rolling now.

They've accepted that they can't compete in the short to medium term but there are positives in that. They now can concentrate on expanding the pro 12 and developing higher quality players themselves. The pressure to win the champions cup is off (from an Irish point of view) so they have room to develop youth players etc.

The pro 12 has the potential to morph into something much bigger, down the line. That might be 10+ years away but it is what it is. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if you want the rewards you have to put in the time an effort into something. People calling for Italian teams exclusion from the pro 12 are being very short sighted. They havn't made much progress yet but that was because of all the uncertainties surrounding their involvement in the league a few years back so they had to practically start from scratch a year or two ago.

What would you envisage that being, which could compete with the Franglais?

Expansion to other European countries. Didn't the Spanish recently get 25k for their club final. Thats a hell of a crowd for that standard and shows the potential that there is abroad. Even getting a small percentage places like Spain interested in rugby can bring big rewards.

Do you think this will make a dent in the gap between the Pro12 and Aviva / Top14?

I think the Pro 12 can expand to become a Super Rugby-esque tournament in future (but with far more commercial reach). Eventually Spain (Barcelona/Madrid), Portugal (Lisbon), Germany (Munich/Frankfurt), Georgia (Tbilisi) and Romania (Bucharest) can all have national teams playing in 2 divisions of Pro 10. Scheduling is key as right now the Pro 12 has 9 teams that lose the same or more internationals to their home nations than the leading English or French teams (based on summer tours).

Italy is the future of the Pro 12 at the moment though. I think they screwed up not putting a team in Rome however there is a lot of potential and a population that is similar in size to France and England.

As for competing with the English and French, in the short run the club game will be theirs. In the long run, who knows.

The highlighted bit is important. Nobody knows for sure but one things is certain, doing nothing but complaining about the league isn't going to solve anything.

Irish Londoner wrote:Fly, one of the things about Britain/England inventing so many things is that they have no national prefix as being the first they weren't needed as identifiers:The Open ChampionshipThe Royal NavyThe Royal Air ForceThe Football AssociationThe Rugby Football UnionThe Professional Golfers AssociationEtc.

I don't think any of those have the definite article in their title.

Leaving that aside, modern day media usage tends to include a country identifier in writing e.g.

English FA names Sam Allardyce as new manager of the English ...The English FA Have Contacted Liverpool Legend Steven Gerrard ...Rob Andrew to quit as English Rugby Football Union's professional ...English rugby union angry over exclusion from European Cup talks ...English RFU agree eight-year deal with Premiership RugbyBristol considering legal action against English Rugby Football UnionEnglish RFU set to resist 6 Nations change

It's no big thing, names/titles have changed/modified since the late 1800s.

As they haven't changed their name it would suggest you're just a chippy Irishman however!

Jeez, 7.5 - I'm not saying they have. I'm saying that custom, times, culture, etc change things including the names that people give to things or how they qualify them.

Take the name of the country Ireland. To people living in the Republic of Ireland, it's just called Ireland. To others, it's called the South, Southern Ireland, Eire, Free State, etc, etc. The London Times (as opposed to The Irish Times ) calls it the Republic of Ireland or the Irish republic. The EU calls it Ireland. It all depends on where you live and what you're used to.

Anyway, I'm sure the English RFU won't mind....

Ah, got you. To normal people its the RFU and chippy incorrect people its the English RFU