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Leica M8

I was wondering if anyone here has personal exprience with the Leica M8 that they would share, as I am considering getting one. I am sure there are better/cheaper alternatives, but I always wanted a Leica and this one seems to be ideal for a rookie like me.

I don't have hands on experience with it, but it has a troubled recent past.

I would not buy anything digital that isn't a Canon, and to be honest if you have the cash to spend the top of the line Canon is simply incredible - the current 16.7 megapixel EOS 1ds Mkll is amazing, and next month the new EOS 1ds Mklll 22mp version will be in stores. There is simply nothing better, period.

However if you want a fun pocket-cam the new (upcoming) Canon G9 is also a pretty compelling package. Honestly the Leica is a waste of time and money - it is simply a Samsung chip in a fancy body with struggling firmware. Canon make the best chips, then Kodak, then Samsung - who make almost all the chips for everyone else from Nikon to Panasonic and everyone in between.

You can get the very best results using the Capture One software to process the Canon RAW files - this will give you full 48 sheet billboard resolution from a 35mm equivilant package.

The best online resource for all camera info is www.dpreview.com - be sure to check into the forums too.

Here is a full scale blow up from the EOS 1ds Mkll with the 24-85mm lens set at 24mm - it is far from the sharpest lens in the range, but it is just so handy that I use it for all my car days. The lower shots shows you the clarity in the point of focus at an exact 100%. I have used this camera for all my Roundel articles - keep an eye open for Oct & Nov - they show off the camera really well too!

The fixed/prime lenses are even sharper!

Andrew Macpherson

Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

still off topic

Andrew,
I'm in the process of replacing my Canon D10 and have been intrigued by the new Nikon D300, replacing the D200. Does the better chip in the Canon line negate any Nikon advantage in lens selection or autofocus speed?

Ken, I honestly don't have hands on with any other 35mm equivilant systems, as in our world everyone knows that Canon leaves all the others in the dust, thus we don't ever bother with them.

The downside of the top of the line Canon is it is a big brute if you are just having fun, but since I work with it everyday it is as second nature to me as most folks favorite pens are to them. The EOS will give you insanely sharp images even at very high ISO/ASA settings, with far less noise than any other systems, and since I do work with a few bands doing concerts I find this invaluable.

The EOS system will give you a 12x18 print that is as sharp as, or sharper than, a medium format film camera, which still blows my mind and delights me at the same time!

This shot ran in People a couple of weeks back, and was cropped into by about 20% by their designer, yet you can clearly still see the sharpness in his eyes. The second file shows the actual repo in the mag, and you can see the dot scren break up, but still the image is super sharp.

Andrew Macpherson

Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

Ken, I've been a Nikon user for years, back from my F3 tank up to my current D2, and I'm seriously considering making the switch to Canon. Nikon, just can't keep up on the technology front, and their product selection, particularly glass is fairly narrow compared to Canon.

That being said, Nikon still makes some fine gear. From what I've read the new bodies that came out or were announced recently are based on a new Sony CMOS that far exceeds the quality of previous Nikon chips. When it comes down to it, most any brand you go with these days will provide quality images for the "average" user. As Andrew makes his living with glass, he must follow the quality/technology.

Thanks for your input. As an "enthusiastic amateur", I look for the sharpness in my images and the ability to make various sized prints to delight family and friends. Having the right equipment can certainly come in handy to make me look more talented than I am just as equipment just one step lower can make me frustrated with results less than what I was aiming for. I'll check out the new Canons before making any decisions.

everyone on this forum obviously has proven appreciation for timeless design & great german engineering - so wanting a Leica M makes a lot of sense

to that end, i would echo Andrew and caution against the M8. if you really want a Leica, i would get one of the 35mm film "M" bodies instead - they are true classics, and using the same lens, one built decades ago will take an identical (great) quality photo as one made this year. And will continue to do so as long as they make film. And keep their value (imho).

this is not the case with the M8 - future versions will have improved image quality. digital cameras have a tendency to become "obsolete", not "classics"

NIKON:

if you already have a large investment in Nikon gear, i would look at the new D3 before making a final decision - early reports from pros seeded with it seem to indicate that Nikon finally(!) caught up w/ Canon as far as Full Frame and High ISO is concerned (but not resolution - but then there is the rumored 25MP D3x)

However, if you do NOT want a 'brick' size & weight DSLR camera (1Ds, D3) AND you want full frame capability (i.e. you are a wide angle fan - or still have a 35mm film mindset when it comes to lenses), there is only 1 camera on the market fitting the bill today - the highly regarded Canon 5D.

COMPACTS:

They are great - less than perfect image & capabilities are balanced by the ability to always have a camera on your person. One limitation (for me) is the lack of built-in true wide angle capability - about the best you can do is some with 28mm (most stop at 35mm).

btw, the "Leica" compacts are actually Panasonics with a Leica label and a beefier price tag

This has been quite a change of pace in my equipment cupboard. I used the same Mamiya RZ67's cameras for almost twenty five years now, and I still have the Nikon F3P's I built my career with, but since the dawn of the digital age I trade out my entire camera systems every 18 months or so, just like computers. I never would have thought of leasing cameras, but when a digital back costs nearly $30K and is obsolete in a year it is the only way to go. The digital age has been a real boon for the equipment makers, but the film companies are loosing ground at an alarming rate.

Agfa is gone, Ilford is hanging on by a thread, Kodak has just two functioning film factories left, in China and Mexico where the environmentally unfriendly mess that is film production can happen without too much attention, and Polaroid has been in chapter 11 for years. One of the color processing labs I used to work with has closed down completely now, and the other is only surviving by its digital services. The companies who made the film processing machines the labs use have all gone to the wall, and so there are very few technicians left to keep the machines that are running going, and no one is building new film processing machines anymore. I think that color film will be be dead and gone within the decade, but black and white will likely continue for a very long time because it can be processed and printed at home, and also the results are so rewarding.

I see a lot of parallels to the end of steam on the railroads. I wonder if a similar sea-change will sweep away the internal combustion engine, and the resources to keep them running in a couple of generations? Will our cars become curiosities like steam traction engines at county fairs? Who will make a MAF for a Z8 in a hundred years?

Andrew Macpherson

Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

Well, after a very long time, I finally got a camera worth spending time with, namely, a Canon Rebel T2i and am very impressed with it. I think it is a bargain for about $1.2K (tax, 16G memory stick, and a 270Ex flash included). What's really nice is that it can take HD video and has an HDMI output

The T2i is really quite an amazing bit of kit for the price. You'll be stunned by the quality and creative control of the video.

I considered getting one recently, but I'm quirkily obsessed with smaller sized cameras these days. So, I ended up with a Panasonic GF1. I sure wish Canon would hurry up with small format body with interchangeable lenses. I really like the GF1's capabilities and image quality, but it's wonky compared to Canon's controls.

I sure wish Canon would hurry up with small format body with interchangeable lenses.

amen to that. I was holding out to see what Canon came up with, but my current camera died on my while I was on vacation and I bought the Sony Nex 5. Amazing for it's size, but I hate giving my money to evil monopoly rent seeking corporations like Sony or especially Apple with their endless proprietary standards and closed architectures. (OK I know there are a lot of Apple fans here, so flame suit on)

Given a choice, should I get a Canon 60D, 7D or 5D Mk II? I really, really like the idea of the full frame sensor, but am a bit worried about the online talk of lack of sharpness and failure rate of the 5D Mk II. I can't justify the extra cost for a 1Ds Mk III

Given a choice, should I get a Canon 60D, 7D or 5D Mk II? I really, really like the idea of the full frame sensor, but am a bit worried about the online talk of lack of sharpness and failure rate of the 5D Mk II. I can't justify the extra cost for a 1Ds Mk III

Can't tell you much about the models, but having just spent a week reading about the Rebel T2i, you get the same image/video quality compared to the 7D (and just about every feature) but for less than 1/2 the price.

The 5d Mklll is close, so I wouldn't buy the Mkll just now. I have worked with the Mkll one several jobs now, and am really impressed with it, and if you go see Restrepo on the big screen you'll see that the sensor can equal a 35mm Arri for in theater quality. It is a very impressive bit of kit!

I also haven't heard of the 5D being soft, but then again most of the folks in my world send their bodies and lenses to Canon to be calibrated to work perfectly together, and yes, it really does make a difference.

Personally I'm really excited for the 1Ds MkIV which is said to be full frame 29MP and HD Vid. Should be a real game changer in my life.

ZMates, you should be folowing one of the analysts I follow, Reggie Middleton, he is very down on Apple's closed loop OS, and is prediciting an Android take over of the world, at least the hand held world. I am not so much pro Apple as pro convieince, and having been with Apple thru the highs and lows, and now highs again I'm happy enough because all my devices work in a fairly seamless way together. The iPhone sucks, and is slow and buggy, but it has super handy navigation, and it syncs with everything in my 'loop'. However if Photoshop came out on Linux I'd likely jump ship, or certainly try to.

Andrew Macpherson

Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

If you're not shooting sports or long telephoto (wildlife) there's nothing in 35mm that will outperform a Leica M9 and Leica glass. I have owned the M8, M8.2 and now the M9. I also own Canon 1D M4 and 7D cameras for the aforementioned work.

I'd like to see a proper test to back that up because it is a pretty bold claim. I just checked and none of the in depth test sites I use have been lent an M9 to put it up against the Canon, or anything else.

Leica don't make chips, they buy them in from Dalsa, Panasonic and Kodak, and none of the chips from those companies I'm aware of are the match of the one in the 1Ds Mklll from Canon.

Andrew Macpherson

Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

ZMates, you should be folowing one of the analysts I follow, Reggie Middleton, he is very down on Apple's closed loop OS, and is prediciting an Android take over of the world, at least the hand held world.

I'll take a look. I just jumped on the Android bandwagon, myself. I do hope people recognize how evil the Apple business model is and join me.

Uh, you think Google is any better? They are out to make money one way or another. They control too much information already. A company with a motto of "dont be evil" is a big red flag for me. I just want my tech to work. I think Android is a fine platform but they have some massive challenges, the most notable to me is that they can't get people to update the system software. Believe me, any of these companies would love to control 100% of the market, don't you forget it. Rather than call these companies "evil", I just use em for what I need.

FWIW, Ive been very happy with my Canon G9- I believe they make a G11 now.

For SLR I use a D3 because I have a bunch of Nikon lenses but it seems that everyone says the Canon bodies are way better.

I have a G11. Its a pretty good camera - there's a lot of high-end features in there waiting to be used.

The small size of the camera makes it very, very easy to hit buttons when picking it up. This ensure's that the camera is always in the wrong mode, and you have to work out how to get it out of that mode. It's also a bit slow at taking the shots - we have the review function turned off, as it takes 2+ seconds to show the picture!

I find myself wanting to checkout building products for iPhone and iPad, and for this, I must purchase an Apple computer. I hate how closed this system is, but if I want to play in that space, I have to buy into the system.

Believe me, any of these companies would love to control 100% of the market, don't you forget it.

Don't doubt that, but...I can buy an android phone from every major manufacturer except for Apple and on every network. I can buy an iphone (in the US) from Apple on AT&T.

In economics, there are natural monopolies--areas of the economy where it makes sense for a monopoly to exist. Standards are an example of a natural monopoly. The accepted best strategy for natural monopolies, though is allow them to exist only where they are needed and separate them from related activities that are not natural monopolies. Sony and Apple both relentlessly use proprietary standards to extend these monopolies into other areas where they shouldn't exist, like hardware and distribution. Sony even went so far as to buy record labels and film studios to try to extend their standard setting ability. I hoenstly don't see Google doing this. I am glad to be proven wrong with some examples.

Apple do oddly enough have a quite a strong connection to Pixar, Steve Jobs is one of the original investors, and Pixar is now running Disney Animation, so Apple isn't as far behind Sony as you might think.

On the bright side it is a triumph of ingenuity and inspiration, but on the dark side it is a shadowy and evil monopoly. Kind of the same coin viewed from different angles, heads and tails so to speak.

Overall Apple will keep my business if they keep me happy because of the incredible convenience of the closed loop OS once you're in it. Much as I like the idea of Linux I don't want to have to read another instruction manual again, ever! I just need my machines need to work, and if they don't get fixed fast and efficiently, and so far Apple have more or less kept their act together.

Andrew Macpherson

Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

Google vs. Apple on phones seems to always devolve into mine's bigger than yours and some level of name calling. In the end, they're two very different models that resound with different consumers.

Apple favors a closed system which has a goal of ease of use and stability for the average consumer. For that they feel that need to control all aspects of the product from the software, hardware, network, distribution, etc. Thus, they derive a more direct financial stream form sales. In general, their product does very well with consumers that aren't into tech specs, etc.

Google has created what in many ways is a technically superior product to Apple, which they really just give away to hardware manufacturers in a quasi white-label approach. This allows it to be device and network agnostic. At the same time, this open model means that it looks, feels, and acts different on each device, meaning that there is no consistent user experience. From this, Google hopes to derive financial benefit through increased traffic at their existing web properties, data collection, and ads. Android definitely wins with technophiles.

So, again - two models that appeal to different segments and hope to monetize their products very differently. Either way, it's a great time to be a consumer of these devices as we have two strong competitors (soon to be three with WM7) keeping each other pushing forward with better and better products. Go back to before June 2007, and the smartphone market was junk.

I'm not sure I'm onboard with the analyst's assessment you linked, Andrew. The key miss is that, yes, Android will absolutely overtake the iPhone (and is already in the US), but it's not such a black and white comparison. As I mentioned above, Google is 'giving away' software that hardware groups modify for their own usage. Apple only makes and sells the one phone. Even their app markets look and smell quite a bit different with Apple having many more paid apps. So, sure, Android will be bigger, but what does that mean economically. Google benefits through their ad dollars, etc. while Apple is more of a standard financial benefit model. What does this mean to the investor - hard to say. But number of shipments is not as useful of a statistic for financial valuation.

I do think it's funny that all the Android users that downloaded the free background of the Android robot eating the Apple had their personal info sent to some servers in China.

Andrew,
Of all the cameras you mention, only one has no anti-aliasing filter in front of the sensor - the M9. It's a major reason M9 images have more detail than any other full frame 35mm digital. I had a 1D Mark III and a 5D Mark II and the M9 was sharper than both.

To me, it's one of those things where you can totally nerd out over the specs for the sake of specs. In the end, it's pretty cool that digital photography has come so far so quickly to a point where it's finally rivaling film but with a creative flexibility that has never been possible.

While I'm absolutely in lust with my little Panny GF1, an compact APS-C with access to the vast inventory of Canon glass would absolutely capture my love. Oddly, this seems to be the only segment where Canon is lagging the competition.

bvhbmw, I have followed your lead on the Leica, and am starting to get very positive feedback from the tech sources I have contacted, they confirm that subjectively it is a match for the quality of the top line Canon & Nikon products, so I will give one a try in the next few days and try to post a lens test comparison.

Rifle, the forum on that blog has some incredible content, I love it, thanks for the link!

Andrew Macpherson

Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

FYI - I'm hunting down a cheap lens for video work with my GF1, with the hacked software. The video is quite insane as its akin to the hacked GH1, which slays about any VDSLR out there. You really should grab a GH1 for your own toying. Search out some vids on Vimeo. You'll be stunned.

There are so many incredible machines about to break, the Canon 5D Mklll and the next gen big EOS are first on my shopping list. From the buzz I'm starting to hear on the Leica M9 I may even have to make room for one of those, but the truth is I need work gear more than play gear.

Honestly the EOS is just such a great work horse, mine has just turned 1,100,000 clicks old. Not bad for a camera thats bounced around the passenger seat (and occasionally footwell too!) on six major Z8 tours, not to mention shooting on four continents in the widest of conditions. Last week I shot two magazine stories and an album package with it with the ease of use that no other machine in my life gives me, except the Z8 of course! It isn't as sharp as I'd like, which is why I'm desperate for the MklV, and super excited to hear it will be 38-42 MP chip, but still this isn't bad. At the 100% scale shown below this image would make a 36" print on an Epson art printer!

Andrew Macpherson

Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

Very impressive review. The M9 is starting to intrigue me as I ramble below.

My drive in photography for the last few years has revolved around portability with acceptable quality. I use to have tons of Nikon gear dating back to my loved F3HP, but once I made the jump to digital, I found it soulless. Plus, the need to lug a backpack of lenses and a huge body gets old. So, I unloaded my arsenal a few years back, and bought one simple, camera - a Canon G10. I actually got it on a whim when visiting Andrew before the holidays. We both couldn't resist the charm of the fun little guy and walked out with two.

This little camera really brought the magic of photography back to me, because it was simple again. With the arms race in digital things just kept getting bigger and more complex, not to mention all the time spent in post processing. The G10 had a nice balance of acceptable quality, the ability to shoot RAW, and creative control, all while being in a swollen P&S sized package. It was a take anywhere, in your pocket, and just shoot camera, and I found myself doing just that.

Sadly, I dropped it one too many times (let's just say there were MANY drops - it's a tank), and now the focus time is much slower and USB no longer works. Even more sadly, Canon decided to pigeon hole the GXX line around low-light performance and more photo-journalist applications. So, they reduced the sensor density and haven't really improved it much in two successive generations. This got me looking at the buzz in the m43s movement.

After the G10 took its final hit, I settled on the Panasonic GF1 and the two kit lenses 20mm/1.7 and 14-45mm. While the interchangeable system is just slightly larger (the body is actually smaller) than the G10 I loved so much, the image quality and creative versatility are insane for such a small package. The mirrorless movement is one of the four pillars of innovation in photography right now (phones, mirrorless, super-high resolution, and video), and it's the one that speaks greatly to my goals of portability and simplicity. Panasonic seems primed to lead the way in this smaller format for the time being (not to mention video), but I'm very interested to see what some of the other players will bring in the next few years. Even with the idea of Canon jumping in with an ASP-C line, I may be building a loyalty to Panasonic due to the ability to keep lenses smaller with their smaller sensor. So, again, this works well with my desire to stay small and simple.

All that being said, I see much of what I desire in a camera body/system in what Leica does. They focus on simplicity, portability, and quality. As a hobbyist and the economy have me struggling over the price, however. It's hard to evaluate the trade-off of the increased quality of the Leica system at nearly ten-times the price of what I currently enjoy using. At the end of the day, it's down to enjoying what you produce, and I'm very pleased with the level of performance of the GF1 (at least for the next few months) when most of what I shoot ends up online or in smaller prints. When this economy gets back to growing steadily, and we're all throwing cash out the window again, I can easily see myself hunting down a gently loved M9.

If you really have gear lust, check out Leica's 50mm f/0.95 lens! Yes, it's faster than f/1.0. Wide open you can have someone's eye in focus and their nose will be out of focus. It's an incredible technical achievement.

It's only $10,000. Pair it up with an M9 and you have a tidy little package for just under $20,000.

Honestly, shooting is all about shooting what's comfortable for you. The GF1, G10, etc. are very nice cameras. If you can try out a Leica, by all means give it a go just to see what it's like to shoot a rangefinder. It changed the way I take pictures (for the better) by slowing me down and making me look around for the "moment" and the composition.

The idea of such a shallow depth of field lens on a rangefinder body leaves me cold. My last Leica was an M6, and honestly I didn't really like it that much. I was using a Nikon F3 as my daily driver back then, and it consistently outperformed the Leica, so I sold it after a few months, and have never really been tempted to look back.

Since I've been a working photographer for over thirty years now (hell, where does it go!) I've shot with a ton of rangefinders, so I know them well. My first proper camera was a Fed Zorki lll, a Russian M1 knock off I got when I was 13 back in '73. Then I used a pair of Minolta CLE's for years as my diary cameras, they were really stunning, and gave amazing images. I also used the Mamiya 660 and the Omega Press medium format rangefinders to shoot large format stuff on location back when I was working for Vogue in the 80's, and even did some work with the Kodak Speed Graphic 5x4 rangefinders, though they were pretty slow and cumbersome to use.

Overall I wouldn't trust a range finder to give accurate focus closer in than around 4ft, so the idea of shooting an f.09 lens wide open and close in is a bit like throwing pebbles into a coffee tin floating in a pond while blind folded. Maybe they have made the viewfinder more accurate, and I'm always open to being wrong, but thats what my instinct tells based on prior experience!

Andrew Macpherson

Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

Sometimes walled gardens are good. The count of malicious apps in the Android market keep growing. It's a great platform, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that wasn't in-touch with technology and able to manage apps carefully, in addition to Google's constant prying eyes. If you're on Android, take care with what you're downloading. An open market means that you're equally open, wether you want to be or not.

thanks for the link! read the interview just before going to see the film (and thanks also for the high recommendation for Black Swan in the 'movie' thread!)

about the interview - just like the PC gave musicians affordable recording studios many years ago, these new DSLR tools are opening up a world of new possibilities for film makers (both established & aspiring).