In the books that make up the Bible, Heaven, quite frankly is very enigmatic and not well defined. The best scriptural definition one could likely surmise is that Heaven is wherever God dwells and not necessarily a specific point on the cosmic map. That would mean that "going to Heaven" simply meant that one was going to be where God is.In religion, specifically Christianity, Heaven is strangely more well defined and less of a mystery than it is in the pages of scripture. It is thought of as a definitive "place" where souls, (dissembodied humans) will go at some point following their death (dissembodiment). This "place" is thought of as some etherical realm yet it is described in physical terms. Hmm?

Some of the problems that the accepted religious idea of Heaven poses is the immortality dilemma. For Heavon or Hell to be what the religion claims, humans must be innately immortal with an undying component. If that is the case, then death as we observe it is truly irrelavent and there is no real value to "Earthly" life at all other than providing a means by which man's soul can lose access to Heaven and have to spend eternity in the religious Hell. That means that 'humanicide', and specifically infanticide are sensible and loving acts to commit to insure that Heaven awaits all.

That's all very true. Following the same logic, people who attend funerals, if they really are true believers, should be dancing around with joy at the thought of their loved one rejoicing in heaven for all eternity. We never see this, though... the loved ones are always weeping and wailing, as though the person who has died is actually, you know, dead.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

That's all very true. Following the same logic, people who attend funerals, if they really are true believers, should be dancing around with joy at the thought of their loved one rejoicing in heaven for all eternity. We never see this, though... the loved ones are always weeping and wailing, as though the person who has died is actually, you know, dead.

This is what I call "people realizing the truth"[1]. It's that little spark of rational thought that's so deep inside their heads that only a great tragedy (in this case, death of a loved one) can "jump start" it.EDIT: I think that, deep down, religious people are just afraid of death and can't admit it to themselves, so they make up this wonderful story where they go up to a wonderful place after they die and then believe in it.

Sooner than you think, any day now, before you know it, practically yesterday, right away, could be tomorrow, almost immediately, Armageddon will come. This will be a mighty battle: big bad voodoo daddy Jehovah, his kid Jesus and all the good people of the earth, versus Satan, his demonic minions and all the bad people of the earth. Jehovah will win and then he will reign forever and ever.

There are 144,000 people already chosen by Jehovah God to be in heaven with him after Armageddon. That's it. How do you know who is chosen by god's grace? "They just know", I was told when I asked. I also noticed that those are the only people allowed to eat the unleavened bread and drink the wine at the annual Lord's Evening Meal and passover service[1]. In the predominantly black congregation we went to, there were two really old white ladies who were the chosen. Nobody else.

If you are not one of the old white ladies chosen, you do not get to go to heaven, but you will get a chance at the second place prize, behind Door Number Two: eternal life in the brand spanking newly refurbished Garden of Eden paradise that Jehovah God will create after Armageddon. In the "This Time, Definitely Paradise", there is no suffering or killing or pain or sneaky serpents or problems of any kind. God's promise. Every ill will be healed. Wild animals will be tame.(Will lions and tigers have flat teeth like cows?)

We will beat our swords into plowshares. Our overdue library books will be magically renewed. We will all have our own theme songs. Gum will no longer stick to our shoes. We will remember where we left our spare reading glasses. Internet porn will be free and have no pesky popup ads. Lassie will finally come home.

In pictures, everyone is strolling through what looks like a large city park, in smiling international but racially segregated family groups, clad in traditional clothing, gathering fruit and playing with lions and bears. It looks excruciatingly boring, and we are talking eternity here. Nothing ever dies. (I asked my father what do people and animals eat besides fruit since there is no killing and thus no meat. He said that Jehovah would provide us with special holy food.)

Jehovah's Witnesses get first dibs on the eternal life love train, because they are the only ones who really have the truth. It is therefore the job of every JW to convert as many people as possible to the truth. If you are not a JW, good luck. You will get a goodness test and if you pass, you get eternal life. If you flunk, well you just die forever. Anyone who dies before Armageddon sleeps until they are resurrected and given the test. Then they go to their assigned final destination.

See? Neet, suite and compleat. But is it remotely plausible? Jehovah God is leaving the room and will NOT be taking any questions.

Sooner than you think, any day now, before you know it, practically yesterday, right away, could be tomorrow, almost immediately, Armageddon will come. This will be a mighty battle: big bad voodoo daddy Jehovah, his kid Jesus and all the good people of the earth, versus Satan, his demonic minions and all the bad people of the earth. Jehovah will win and then he will reign forever and ever.

There are 144,000 people already chosen by Jehovah God to be in heaven with him after Armageddon. That's it. How do you know who is chosen by god's grace? "They just know", I was told when I asked. I also noticed that those are the only people allowed to eat the unleavened bread and drink the wine at the annual Lord's Evening Meal and passover service[1]. In the predominantly black congregation we went to, there were two really old white ladies who were the chosen. Nobody else.

If you are not one of the old white ladies chosen, you do not get to go to heaven, but you will get a chance at the second place prize, behind Door Number Two: eternal life in the brand spanking newly refurbished Garden of Eden paradise that Jehovah God will create after Armageddon. In the "This Time, Definitely Paradise", there is no suffering or killing or pain or sneaky serpents or problems of any kind. God's promise. Every ill will be healed. Wild animals will be tame.(Will lions and tigers have flat teeth like cows?)

We will beat our swords into plowshares. Our overdue library books will be magically renewed. We will all have our own theme songs. Gum will no longer stick to our shoes. We will remember where we left our spare reading glasses. Internet porn will be free and have no pesky popup ads. Lassie will finally come home.

In pictures, everyone is strolling through what looks like a large city park, in smiling international but racially segregated family groups, clad in traditional clothing, gathering fruit and playing with lions and bears. It looks excruciatingly boring, and we are talking eternity here. Nothing ever dies. (I asked my father what do people and animals eat besides fruit since there is no killing and thus no meat. He said that Jehovah would provide us with special holy food.)

Jehovah's Witnesses get first dibs on the eternal life love train, because they are the only ones who really have the truth. It is therefore the job of every JW to convert as many people as possible to the truth. If you are not a JW, good luck. You will get a goodness test and if you pass, you get eternal life. If you flunk, well you just die forever. Anyone who dies before Armageddon sleeps until they are resurrected and given the test. Then they go to their assigned final destination.

See? Neet, suite and compleat. But is it remotely plausible? Jehovah God is leaving the room and will NOT be taking any questions.

JW teachings on the afterlife as implausible as they may be are in fact more in line with what is actually written in the scriptures than most other Christian religions with the exception of 7th Day Adventists.

Yes, perhaps. That would allow for greater reconciliation with observed reality.

Does it actually state in any sanctioned Christian document that God *has* to be all-powerful and all-knowing and all-present?Or is that another one of those vague points that we've inhereted and bolstered across the millennia?

Wouldn't it be funny if the literal bible god was not supposed to be more than a super-powerful shaman?(Not really funny ha ha, but more funny that's the worst mistake in human history....)

That's all very true. Following the same logic, people who attend funerals, if they really are true believers, should be dancing around with joy at the thought of their loved one rejoicing in heaven for all eternity. We never see this, though... the loved ones are always weeping and wailing, as though the person who has died is actually, you know, dead.

I think it's kind of like this actually:If a loved one was accepted for a position overseas that they had always dreamed of I would be happy for them and yet sad for the time we would be separated....even knowing it would be temporary.

Basically , if you have human emotions you can rest assured the we Christians will also , for the most part, have many of the same ones.

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When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,when sorrows like sea billows roll;what ever my lot, you have taught me to sayit is well, it is well with my soul.

I think it's kind of like this actually:If a loved one was accepted for a position overseas that they had always dreamed of I would be happy for them and yet sad for the time we would be separated....even knowing it would be temporary.

Yes, this is the most obvious answer, and coming from a Christian, it's very understandable that you don't understand that the analogy is completely flawed. You see, the same job offer is open to you. According to you, it's open to everyone who wants it. So the question becomes.. why do you not go accept the same dream job you always wanted with them? All you have to do in order to be in the greatest place in the history of the universe for all eternity is somehow find a way to get that darned heart to stop beating. Every person who cries out at the death of a loved one is, at heart, an atheist. Someone who really believed in God and heaven would find a way to get there as quickly as possible.

I'll never understand that. If you all really believed the heaven nonsense, none of you would be here anymore.

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

All this begs the question of why have an earthly existence (with numerous chances to screw up the whole trip to heaven gig) in the first place? What's with all the wasted space-time in the universe? What does Baseball God need with practice teams, farm teams, pee wees, little leagues, high school teams, college teams, minor leagues, major leagues. So then he can send only those who make the majors to heaven? Can't he just draft his dream team from the getgo? Why not just make heaven, put everyone in there and have done with it? Easy peasy.

What's with the bait and switch, used car salesman, extended warranty plan, easy credit pitch? It's all about understanding the deal, right? God is offering the best setup ever. All you have to do is believe this and you get the deal. Actually you can also do good works, but only if you were born and died before Jesus. And not everyone can get there, even with good works and belief, because nobody gets a free ticket.

Unless you are a serial killer who honestly repents and accepts Jesus as your saviour in jail. But not if you engage in gay sex, in or out of jail. And here's a special small print exit clause about unborn fetuses and the mentally handicapped. Oh, yeah, whoa, you can't go if you have had or caused an abortion. Unless you feel really, really bad about it and try to stop other people who want to have abortions. (Except in the case of incest or the health of the woman.)(Or rape.) (By a stranger with a knife.) (Unless she had on a short dress. )

But remember, if you do know about the deal and are trying to be good, but still don't believe, you can't go unless at the last breath you do accept. Then it's all good. Got that? Now sign away all rational thought right here on the dotted line.

whiskey tango foxtrot

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

I think it's kind of like this actually:If a loved one was accepted for a position overseas that they had always dreamed of I would be happy for them and yet sad for the time we would be separated....even knowing it would be temporary.

Yes, this is the most obvious answer, and coming from a Christian, it's very understandable that you don't understand that the analogy is completely flawed. You see, the same job offer is open to you. According to you, it's open to everyone who wants it. So the question becomes.. why do you not go accept the same dream job you always wanted with them? All you have to do in order to be in the greatest place in the history of the universe for all eternity is somehow find a way to get that darned heart to stop beating.

It's about being separated from a loved one...even temporarily, as in they got a good job.Not in that they died Jeff.How in the world you took that and turned it into a call for mass Christian suicide is beyond me.You realize suicide would be considered a form of murder , correct?Also, when it's time for the ticker to stop ticking it will for sure.

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Every person who cries out at the death of a loved one is, at heart, an atheist. Someone who really believed in God and heaven would find a way to get there as quickly as possible.

Have you ever even opened a New Testament?

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I'll never understand that. If you all really believed the heaven nonsense, none of you would be here anymore.

Obviously, but hey...never say never ,I guess.

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When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,when sorrows like sea billows roll;what ever my lot, you have taught me to sayit is well, it is well with my soul.

Every person who cries out at the death of a loved one is, at heart, an atheist. Someone who really believed in God and heaven would find a way to get there as quickly as possible.

Have you ever even opened a New Testament?

Yer, it says love your enemy, go out and heal people with plague, and eat the same food that lilies do. It provides no end of ways for the dedicated to end their lives within a week, or so. (That is, if you had faith... but I guess you have to have faith to follow Jesus, and make that leap. Or, you could just believe that Jesus said worship me, rather than follow, or emulate him, and keep safe and snug, watching Christian heavy metal.)

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When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

It's about being separated from a loved one...even temporarily, as in they got a good job.

Yes, onesteward. You already said that. I got that. The thing is, however, you don't HAVE to be separated from the loved one. In your belief system, you have every opportunity to BE with the loved one any time you want. All you have to do is stop living and you will be with the one you love forever in the greatest place in the history of the universe.

In your belief system, death is nothing more than a transition from one place to another. It's not really "death" per say. Its just moving to a different place... A much better place... That you yourself can go to anytime you want. You make it sound like death is a big deal. Why? For you Christians, dying is the greatest thing you could possibly do for yourself. At the very least, you should be working on a crab boat off the coast of Alaska. That way you risk your life every time you go to sea.

How in the world you took that and turned it into a call for mass Christian suicide is beyond me.

I'm not calling for Christians to kill themselves, because I know death is final. What I am doing is asking why you all choose to keep living when the greatest thing ever waits for you when you die. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp? Where does the logic fail for you?

The difference is that I can think about the consequences of such a scenario in a rational, reasonable way, and you seem not to be able to do so. What I wonder is how you can NOT see it that way. The analogy you put up makes it sound like the job opportunity is NOT open to you. In your world view, it is. Correct me if I am wrong, but you think Heaven is the greatest place ever, right? And you think all your loved one's will be there, right? And it's eternally awesome, right? What are you not understanding? Why would you not go there?

If you were offered the greatest job in the history of the universe, and all you had to do to get it was one simple thing, why wouldn't you do it? Seriously. I want to know.

No, it's not. Murder is defined by Dictionary.com as the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. It says nothing about killing yourself. I call murder, murder and suicide, suicide. They are different words with different meanings. But OH, I forgot, I'm talking to a Christian... where day doesn't really mean day, and death doesn't really mean death. You guys mix up words all the time to suit your own agendas. I try not to do that.

But isn't it entirely possible that God is making me write this message to you because He wants you to consider killing yourself so He can be with you in the eternal, blissful realm of heaven?

Yeah, and all those people who kill themselves (over a million a year), that was time for their ticker to stop ticking too, wasn't it? After all, God knew they were going to do that. Worse yet, killing themselves was all part of God's plan to begin with. No matter what the cause behind it... When your ticker stops ticking, that was the time for the ticker to stop ticking. That's about as much as you can argue there.

That's all very true. Following the same logic, people who attend funerals, if they really are true believers, should be dancing around with joy at the thought of their loved one rejoicing in heaven for all eternity. We never see this, though... the loved ones are always weeping and wailing, as though the person who has died is actually, you know, dead.

I think it's kind of like this actually:If a loved one was accepted for a position overseas that they had always dreamed of I would be happy for them and yet sad for the time we would be separated....even knowing it would be temporary.

That's a very bad analogy. Here's a better one.

As one who believes that death is the end of everything, I wouldn't immediately fall to the floor crying my eyeballs out in grief and despair when my wife went to the grocery store.[1] She's only going to be gone for an hour or two, right? So there's simply nothing to get upset about; an hour or two out of an entire lifetime is nothing. I'd scarcely even give it any thought.

Similarly, according to your belief system, if, say, your mother dies, you'll be apart for maybe thirty years or so, then you're together again for all eternity. Just as an hour out of a lifetime is nothing, so thirty years out of eternity is nothing. If you truly do have the strength of your convictions, then there's nothing for you to be upset about at a loved one's death. And yet you are upset.

At the very least, you should be working on a crab boat off the coast of Alaska. That way you risk your life every time you go to sea.

For some reason, god doesn't want his creations to risk their lives, because that would be deliberately trying to get to heaven....which is bad, m'kay? Except that it is a good thing to risk your life doing something god approves of....say, missionary work in Somalia.

But what about the smaller bits? Should a Christian jog, eat right, stay healthy? Or east McDs every day, no veggies, no exercise? Seems like - again - the latter is bad in god's eyes.....he wants you to keep away from heaven for as long as possible.

But then.....should we EVER see an unhealthy Christian? Should not every Christian there is be eating their 5 a day, jogging regularly, reducing cholesterol and salt? Well, no....we see Christians getting unhealthy just as much as atheist and anyone else.

So tell me, onesteward.....what IS the rule? Can Christians take risks, or not? Should they do everything they can to keep out of heaven for as long as possible, or is it okay to just eat unhealthy and hope for a nice early heart attack?

Someone who really believed in God and heaven would find a way to get there as quickly as possible.

I'll never understand that. If you all really believed the heaven nonsense, none of you would be here anymore.

Yes Jeff

Yet doctors offices are full of christians all the time, fighting tooth and nail and taking fist fulls of medications to stay alive and in this reality.

People of faith who firmly believe in a heaven and who get a cancer diagnosis, shouldn't be running all frenzied to get chemo treatments arranged, but should be happily going to get the services of a funeral home arranged....shouldn't they ?

There's only one primary answer to why christians do not want to die and go to heaven as quick as we might think:---Fear of god.

As a theist, this was why I was always fearful of dying:--- I found it extremely sobering and unnerving that I was going to have to immediately stand before god, and without any say in the matter, was going to have to experience him having a go at me and judging all that my life was.....Yeah Yeah Yeah, christians love their god, but the fear of it, is what grips them most and that fear of it is made manifest in their strong desire to hang around in this world and reality as long as humanly possible.......They cling to this life with this fear strongly at the forefront of their minds and desperately try to keep building and banking up points and good works that will make this eventual meeting with their maker go as much in their favour as possible.

I've always felt that theists who come here to WWGHA probably have the greatest levels of fear of their god. They feel that coming directly into the camp of the enemy and fighting toe to toe with them is something that their god will take note of and make his judgements on them go easier. They feel it's a risky and bold move on thier part and not sure if their god will like it, but if they could possibly be successful here then their hoping that there will be more accolades from god and less chance of there being a judgement from god that deems them a poor or failed christian.

Every person who thinks they're heaven bound, would love to be able to just wave at god from a distance as they go through the pearly gates, but no, we're told that there's a preliminary and non-optional one on one judgement session with that ever peering note taking god before you get to heaven or even get near those heavenly gates

What believer in their right mind would be in a hurry to get to that nail biting interview ?

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"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

So tell me, onesteward.....what IS the rule? Can Christians take risks, or not? Should they do everything they can to keep out of heaven for as long as possible, or is it okay to just eat unhealthy and hope for a nice early heart attack?

That's all very true. Following the same logic, people who attend funerals, if they really are true believers, should be dancing around with joy at the thought of their loved one rejoicing in heaven for all eternity. We never see this, though... the loved ones are always weeping and wailing, as though the person who has died is actually, you know, dead.

I think it's kind of like this actually:If a loved one was accepted for a position overseas that they had always dreamed of I would be happy for them and yet sad for the time we would be separated....even knowing it would be temporary.

Basically , if you have human emotions you can rest assured the we Christians will also , for the most part, have many of the same ones.

I'm sure you do. I'll offer my own example. My husband has been away for about year now, working contract stuff. He's coming back to live with me in a week, which is very nice. We were about 300 miles apart and visited when we could. Now, I missed him. However, that emotion is NOTHING like what I experienced when my dear friend died and what I have observed other people experiencing the death of loved ones, e.g. my husband's sister (real live evangelical Christian) having to be physically restrained from her mother's casket becasue she wouldnt' let go for them to take it to the graveyard. To claim it's the same is outright ridiculous.

If heaven is so great, (and ignoring the bible which says no one but a few Jewish eunuchs will get in, everyone else getting "New Jerusalem"), Christians should be volunteering for dangerous but helpful tasks. Clearing land mines, clearing errant cluster bomblets, driving fuel trucks to our soldiers in Afghanistan, etc. All extraordinarly dangerous things that need done. Someone who wants heaven should be lining up for this, to do good for his fellow man and to get off this sinful rock that they supposedly are so upset by. But they aren't. You have good people of various faiths and none at all doign this work or you have people who need money so badly that they take these kinds of jobs for their families.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Yes, perhaps. That would allow for greater reconciliation with observed reality.

Does it actually state in any sanctioned Christian document that God *has* to be all-powerful and all-knowing and all-present?Or is that another one of those vague points that we've inhereted and bolstered across the millennia?

Wouldn't it be funny if the literal bible god was not supposed to be more than a super-powerful shaman?(Not really funny ha ha, but more funny that's the worst mistake in human history....)

One thing that jumps out at me about the Bible and for that matter the overwhelming majority of religious texts and superstitions is that they are generally extremely geocentric focusing almost entirely on mankind and life on Earth from its inception to some type of ultimate culmination. In the the texts, gods are usually man's progenitors, man's benefactors, and man's ultimate judges. What that tells readers is that for what ever reason, these gods seem to have a vested interest in man and perhaps even man's habitation. Why? Some say it's, presuming these gods exist in some fashion, because mankind is the offspring of these entities.

In order to attempt to reconsile theology with that which is realistic one might be better served to conclude that tha "gods" were simply extra terrestrials that perhaps came across a barron and lifeless planet with potential or resources they deemed vital and sowed the seeds of life on Earth many eons ago.

It's about being separated from a loved one...even temporarily, as in they got a good job.

Yes, onesteward. You already said that. I got that. The thing is, however, you don't HAVE to be separated from the loved one. In your belief system, you have every opportunity to BE with the loved one any time you want. All you have to do is stop living and you will be with the one you love forever in the greatest place in the history of the universe.

I can't speak for you Jeff but I have more than one person whom I love .They aren't all saved either.So , just like every other human I know, there will be times of separation...one way or the other.I guess I'll live out my life as it is for now....kind of like Christians have been doing for about 20 centuries.

In your belief system, death is nothing more than a transition from one place to another. It's not really "death" per say. Its just moving to a different place... A much better place... That you yourself can go to anytime you want. You make it sound like death is a big deal. Why? For you Christians, dying is the greatest thing you could possibly do for yourself.

True enough Jeff. Jesus referred to it a 'sleep' on more than one occasion as I recall.I still think we are to live out our life as best we can to be of service to God.

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At the very least, you should be working on a crab boat off the coast of Alaska. That way you risk your life every time you go to sea.

Not with these flippin' knees!!, I shouldn't.I've been noticing lately people have been dying all over the place...strange.I wonder if my odds of getting killed in a plain old car wreck are greater or less than being killed on a crab boat.I'm in New England so with winter weather and all I'm probably rolling the dice every time I drive my vehicle.

I'm not calling for Christians to kill themselves, because I know death is final. What I am doing is asking why you all choose to keep living when the greatest thing ever waits for you when you die. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp? Where does the logic fail for you?

Interesting....you know death is final.I think you believe it ,maybe.Maybe.

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When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,when sorrows like sea billows roll;what ever my lot, you have taught me to sayit is well, it is well with my soul.

So , just like every other human I know, there will be times of separation...one way or the other.I guess I'll live out my life as it is for now....kind of like Christians have been doing for about 20 centuries.

Right. All of them who, deep down inside, know it's all bullshit. You saying "I guess I'll live out my life as it is" would be akin to getting that greatest job offer in the world and saying, "Nah, I'm gonna keep shlepping burgers at McDonald's".

You're correct. I believe it. With the same veracity with which you believe it's not. The thing is, however, I'm living my life consistent with my belief, and you are not. I BELIEVE this is the only chance at life that I get, so I am doing my best to make the most of it. You say you BELIEVE that the next life is far better, yet you are living your life as if this is the one you want to stay in. And if you became sick, I dare say you would fight very hard not to die. That is inconsistent with what you claim to believe. If you were being consistent, you would go to the next life ASAP.

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT