Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Originally Posted by Columbusite

You can have those, I never said you couldn't. Government is the sole exception for what should be obvious reasons if you pay attention to what's going on in this country. Places of worship are free to display religious symbols and so can businesses, individuals, cars, etc. Hardly an "inquisition" which you trivially and laughably compare this to. Gee, someone can wear a huge cross, cover their car in Jesus fish, freely attend church every day they can, and have a Christian run bussiness, but oh no! The government might take the words "under God" out of the pledge! With that kind of persecution it's no wonder Christians are the Jews of the 21st century.

But look at European countries that have religious symbols as part of their history, heritage, and culture. Look at Italy. It's a pretty free and prosperous country. The Catholic Church in Rome has always been part of Italian culture and in my opinion, it's created a wealth of art and culture. Is it really a big surprise why Italy leads the world in terms of art, fashion, and wine? Obviously they aren't facing any massive oppression over there.

Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Originally Posted by George_Washington

But look at European countries that have religious symbols as part of their history, heritage, and culture. Look at Italy. It's a pretty free and prosperous country. The Catholic Church in Rome has always been part of Italian culture and in my opinion, it's created a wealth of art and culture. Is it really a big surprise why Italy leads the world in terms of art, fashion, and wine? Obviously they aren't facing any massive oppression over there.

I'm not familiar with Italy, but I am with Spain's history and boy, they could have done without the Catholic church. Sure, a lot of beautiful architecture would not be, but all things considered they would have been better off. At the same time, so much oppression by a conservative church has had an effect of forging ahead on many issues that even the US won't touch, like gay marriage and to a lesser extent drug laws regarding marijuana.

I can imagine most current art is looked down on by the church, along with fashion, which the church cannot claim to be a contributer. Just imagine someone walking down the street wearing what the pope wears. It would never make it onto the runway. Wine was probably so popular because the church banned eveything else that was fun to do. Perhaps the art, fashion, and wine was done in spite of the church or it was just a way to piss off the Vatican. That's just my take on it, of course.

When it comes right down to it, Italy is Italy and the US is the US. I truly believe our unprecedented Constitution which has no equals is best not tampered with in the religion area. Why settle for "pretty free"? I might add that many of our cities are lacking because of suburban sprawl that sucks life out of our cities. Think about it. So many people live there, yet suburbs are so non-descript and lifeless that no European could fathom why we'd do that to ourselves and leave our cities empty. They know how to live, but at least a good number of American cities are figuring this out albeit a bit late. Ramble mode off.

"To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
- Thomas Paine

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
- Thomas Jefferson

"Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do."
- Robert G. Ingersoll

Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

George_washington, italy is a different country than us. Sure, they can be free like us and have religion in their government as they choose. However, they weren't founded on the same principle as us and they don't have the same document to prove it.
And since when does one's opinion of wine, art, and fashion have to do with government and religion? My opinions of those are contrary to many people; different from yours, most likely.
We could also fill our government with other symbols of our history. Slavery, great depression, boston tea party terrorism, native american genocide. There's a lot about our history and culture that people don't like to flaunt.
Gah, this post is crappy.

Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Originally Posted by Columbusite

I'm not familiar with Italy, but I am with Spain's history and boy, they could have done without the Catholic church. Sure, a lot of beautiful architecture would not be, but all things considered they would have been better off. At the same time, so much oppression by a conservative church has had an effect of forging ahead on many issues that even the US won't touch, like gay marriage and to a lesser extent drug laws regarding marijuana.

Well, that's a whole other debate. I can see what you're saying but in a lot of ways, the Catholic Church has been less hostile than its Protestant counterparts. For example, Martin Luther King was a strong anti-semetic. I don't think persecution of the Jews in Italy ever amounted to what it was in Germany after the reformation.

I can imagine most current art is looked down on by the church, along with fashion, which the church cannot claim to be a contributer. Just imagine someone walking down the street wearing what the pope wears. It would never make it onto the runway. Wine was probably so popular because the church banned eveything else that was fun to do. Perhaps the art, fashion, and wine was done in spite of the church or it was just a way to piss off the Vatican. That's just my take on it, of course.

I really have never heard anything of the Catholic Church bashing Italian designers. Pope Benedict has been seen wearing Prada and Gucci:

I don't think the Catholic Church has ever persecuted artists in Italy, at least not to the extent that other civilizations have. Back in the middle ages, they were famous for making nice looking armor. Recall all of the famous renaissance artists that I don't think were ever persecuted.

I would say that art suffered more under atheist and communist Russia than under any western, religious society. There have been many writings about how the communism produces very poor art. In my opinion, religious societies have produced better art than non-religious ones. But this could just be my opinion though.

When it comes right down to it, Italy is Italy and the US is the US. I truly believe our unprecedented Constitution which has no equals is best not tampered with in the religion area. Why settle for "pretty free"? I might add that many of our cities are lacking because of suburban sprawl that sucks life out of our cities. Think about it. So many people live there, yet suburbs are so non-descript and lifeless that no European could fathom why we'd do that to ourselves and leave our cities empty. They know how to live, but at least a good number of American cities are figuring this out albeit a bit late. Ramble mode off.

Well, I agree that we should encourage city life like it used to be. But what exactly does have to do with the pledge?

Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Originally Posted by George_Washington

Well, that's a whole other debate. I can see what you're saying but in a lot of ways, the Catholic Church has been less hostile than its Protestant counterparts. For example, Martin Luther King was a strong anti-semetic. I don't think persecution of the Jews in Italy ever amounted to what it was in Germany after the reformation.

I really have never heard anything of the Catholic Church bashing Italian designers. Pope Benedict has been seen wearing Prada and Gucci:

I think both did their fair share of persecuting the Jews. I don't know who'd "win" though, the Catholics or the Protestants? Tough call. Oh, I think you meant Martin Luther?

Aww, I was hoping for a photo in that link.

I don't think the Catholic Church has ever persecuted artists in Italy, at least not to the extent that other civilizations have. Back in the middle ages, they were famous for making nice looking armor. Recall all of the famous renaissance artists that I don't think were ever persecuted.

I would say that art suffered more under atheist and communist Russia than under any western, religious society. There have been many writings about how the communism produces very poor art. In my opinion, religious societies have produced better art than non-religious ones. But this could just be my opinion though.

That was tongue in cheek, it sounded plausible is all. Please don't confuse communist and Atheist as the two have basically nothing in common. I agree that communist art is lacking since it all has to be,...what is it called, socialist realism. The "pinnacle" of art, ha! Atheism sets no boundries for art, but I don't know how many artists openly say they are when it comes to art so that we could compare. I know Sweden has a lot of Atheists, maybe you could take a look at what they've come up with over there, although there is so much more to it than that. Back in the day in parts of Europe (maybe all) only realistic looking religious paintings were allowed if I recall, so it was well after that that we got some variety.

Well, I agree that we should encourage city life like it used to be. But what exactly does have to do with the pledge?

If more people lived in cities there'd be more liberals and we'd be dealing with more important things. Eh? How'd you like how I did that? Not too shabby.

"To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
- Thomas Paine

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
- Thomas Jefferson

"Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do."
- Robert G. Ingersoll

Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Originally Posted by George_Washington

I just don't see any real extreme danger in putting religious symbols in our government like you and some other people do. I look on it as more a cultural and historical thing and less of an actual religious endorsement. I think that's how a lot of people in other countries view it, too.

It's the old arab proverb. You don't let the camel put his butt under the tent because if you do, it soon fills up with camel crap.

Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Originally Posted by George_Washington

Why is this so hard to understand? Why can't we have religion symbols and artifacts as simply religious and cultural things? Why does it have to be like some, "inquisition" thing of doom?

It is a slippery slope, and its very hard to reverse. It took over fifty years to be able to seriously challenge the act of having school kids indoctrinated into religion in a public building by a taxpayer funded teacher.

Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

31 actually but continue

To win without risk is to triumph without glory. -Pierre Corneille There are no athiests in foxholes. -William T. Cummings If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect. -Edward Gibbon