Church and state

Concerns were raised when federal funding for chaplains in schools was introduced. Now some parents have evidence evangelism has seeped into the secular public school system. Others are staunch supporters. The controversy is now headed for the High Court. Reporter Hagar Cohen.

Update June 2012, the High Court ruled that the chaplains in schools program is unconstitutional. The Federal Government is trying to work out what this means for the program and there is much debate about the wider implications of the decision. It was ruled that the funding model for the program was unconstitutional.

Related

Chaplains in schools - The national schools chaplaincy program is being investigated by the Commonwealth Ombudsman, after a critical review in the Northern Territory.

Transcript

Hagar Cohen: A scripture teacher at a high school in the New South Wales coastal town of Ulladulla has written in a newsletter about his achievements at the public school where he works.

Reader: There is much to be thankful for as we look back on another year of bringing the Great News of Jesus to the precious young people at Ulladulla high school.

The other week a Year 7 boy put up his hand and said, 'I asked Jesus into my life the other day.'

A Year 8 boy described how he had committed his life to Christ while walking home from the bus stop recently.

A Year 8 girl told me about the peace she now has since becoming a Christian.

Hagar Cohen: The newsletter was published on the website of an organisation that provides a religious teacher and a chaplain to the public school, Ulladulla High.

Hello, this is Background Briefing on ABC Radio National. I'm Hagar Cohen.

The program today in no sense criticises people or organisations with strong religious views of any kind.

However an important principle in our public education system is the separation of church and state, and this is now under serious scrutiny.

Around Australia, there's evidence that evangelising and proselytising is widespread in public schools. Here's that newsletter again.

Reader: We look forward to continuing to bring the great news of Jesus to Year 7, 8 and 9 students in 2010 and are already planning unified seminars and outreaches for senior students.

Hagar Cohen: This organisation is funded partly by the federal government's National School Chaplaincy program. It gives each school that takes on a chaplain $20,000 a year. The scheme is popular; it started in 2007 and today chaplains work in more than 70% of public schools.

But it's also causing friction in school communities.

A group called the Australian Secular Lobby has been formed to counteract chaplaincy. Hugh Wilson.

Hugh Wilson: It's quite staggering, because we thought this was just a Queensland issue, and since we've put up the Australian Secular Lobby website, we've been getting people from Tasmania, from Victoria, South Australia, WA, Northern Territory and New South Wales. I think that covers the lot. They're looking for information about how chaplains should operate. They find our webpage, they make contact with us, tell us a very similar story all around the country, and we try to advise them as best we can on what to do next.

Hagar Cohen: And what's a common story that they tell you?

Hugh Wilson: Well they start really with the fact that nobody knows that they have a chaplain. They just appeared. The first thing parents know is that their children have been dealing with the chaplain, and they want to know why.

Hagar Cohen: Chaplains are people of faith, any faith, but it happens that 98% of them are Christian. They need to be endorsed by a religious institution, a church for example. The rules change from state to state, but there's no national requirement for qualifications or particular skills.

The aim is to provide care for the students, and there are guidelines that regulate this work. They are not to counsel children, or proselytise in the school.

However Background Briefing has evidence that some chaplains have breached this code of conduct. There has been no recourse in these cases, and the way the federal government's been managing the scheme is now being investigated by the Commonwealth Ombudsman. Peter Garrett is the minister responsible for the National School Chaplaincy Program. He concedes the guidelines may need to be changed. His department is now reviewing the parameters.

Peter Garrett: As to the question of whether or not we need to have continual improvement in guidelines, that there ought to be things such as minimum standards for chaplains when they go into these schools, and a range of other matters. I will look very closely at the submissions that have come in that paper, and I'll also consider whether there are ways in which we could strengthen and improve existing guidelines.

Hagar Cohen: In Canberra a few weeks ago, the peak parent body, the Australian Council of State Schools Organisations, was preparing for a meeting with the Federal Department of Education.

Peter Garrigan is the national president.

Peter Garrigan: I'd just like to reconvene the meeting, and at this point in time we need to have a discussion in relation to the National School Chaplaincy program.

Hagar Cohen: Most of the delegates here reject the chaplaincy scheme.

The Tasmanian representative, Jenny Grossmith, talked about Facebook being used by chaplains to recruit children to their faith.

Jenny Grossmith: So the chaplain was able to invite the child; the child accepted the invitation, and then after a little while actually said to the parent, 'I've been their friend, I don't want to be their friend anymore', because of the very... that there was a Thought for the Day that this chaplain was putting on his Facebook page. Well this is a little bit evangelising.

Hagar Cohen: During a break in the meeting, Helen Walton from New South Wales said evangelism in her schools is widespread.

Helen Walton: When the chaplaincy role was sold to us, it was also sold in terms of the fact that it was not a religious-based position. It was purely a welfare-based position, and our concern is that it's moved beyond that now, that we now have information that some of these people in these schools are actually practising religious prayer meetings, and encouraging students to come along.

Hagar Cohen: For more about this meeting, go to our website where there's a slide show with images and extended interviews.

The sleepy coastal town of Ulladulla is located on the New South Wales south coast. The district has two high schools and three primary schools.

One of them, Ulladulla High, has a chaplain. Last year he came to talk to students at the primary school nearby about their transition into high school. Surprised by the visit, maths teacher, Nick, the supervisor at the time, was on high alert.

Nick: It was at the end of the year, the chaplain was addressing the Year 6 children.

Hagar Cohen: Just last year?

Nick: Yes, 2010, of which the majority of those children would be going to the high school, the local high school. And he did say that he was available for children there, and they could come to him and pray with him, or if not he would pray for them.

Hagar Cohen: And what was your reaction?

Nick: Gobsmacked. Startled. I just, you know, found it incredible that that was said after 23 years of being in public education; that was the first time I'd heard something like that. Religion obviously is appearing to be a big thing in public high schools.

Hagar Cohen: Religion in Ulladulla High's been making headlines in the local press recently. It was reported that children were made to sit at the back of scripture class, despite protests from their parents.

For example, Monica's daughter, a Buddhist like her mother, started Year 7 at Ulladulla High this year. And Monica became anxious when she heard about the new scripture class arrangement.

Monica: Initially when she first started high school, she was made to go to Christian religion, Christian scripture. But after a lot of fighting, she now doesn't have to attend. Because I made it very clear to both the principal via phone, and in writing under Section 26 of the Education Act, her exemption; but it was ignored, and she was still sent to scripture.

Hagar Cohen: The school now acknowledges it was in breach of state legislation and has corrected the situation. Nevertheless, Monica was nervous so she went online to find out why the school was so adamant that all children attend scripture. She discovered a blog written by the high school's chaplaincy provider.

It's called the United Christian Education Foundation, and it provides the school with a chaplain, and a scripture teacher, Bernie. Here's a reading from that blog.

Reader: Pray for Year 8 and 9 classes today, especially for the students who have not attended religious classes before, and who will be bringing their own work to class. Pray that they will be quiet and that they'll hear God's message as Bernie teaches the other students.

Praise for God's ongoing ministry to many non-Christian youth at Ulladulla High School.

Hagar Cohen: After reading this online, Monica became deeply distressed.

Monica: It actually made me physically ill, because they're not my beliefs. And when you read things like that that are on the blog, it's quite scary.

Hagar Cohen: Are you concerned that your daughter might be influenced?

Monica: Yes, I am. I think that at this stage in her life, she's quite vulnerable to different opinions.

Hagar Cohen: The blog had a picture of the scripture teacher with another man she didn't recognise. The caption said he was the chaplain. Monica asked her daughter if she recognised the man, and she said he was the chaplain and he invited the kids in school to pray with him.

Monica: The only thing my daughter highlighted was the fact that they were all invited to go and pray with him, whenever the opportunity arose, or they felt the need.

Hagar Cohen: In the High School, Max (not his real name) is in Grade 8 this year. He thinks the chaplain is in the school to convert the children.

Max: Basically to make people become aware of his religion. That's it really.

Hagar Cohen: Why do you think that's his role?

Max: I don't really have a reason why, it's pretty much I know that.

Hagar Cohen: And you think that is the chaplain's official role, that's the purpose why the chaplain is in this school?

Max: That's what I believe.

Hagar Cohen: This is how Max sees it, but it's not actually the chaplain's formal role, because it would be against the guidelines. Though his confusion can be explained, as one reads the chaplaincy provider's mission of statement.

Reader: The United Christian Education Foundation Inc. at Ulladulla High School exists to:

Encourage the school community to grow in following Jesus Christ in everyday life and to help integrate students into local churches.

Hagar Cohen: This evangelical claim has drawn the attention of former High Court judge Michael Kirby. He wrote a letter to the school principal, and that letter was leaked to Background Briefing. It reads in part:

Reader: I was surprised to see these claims, given the great importance attached in the Education Acts of New South Wales to the secular quality of public education in the state.

Would you please inform me of whether the claims in the UCEF website are correct; what part you have permitted this organisation to play in the school apart from the one hour of scripture lessons protected by the Act; and whether these involvements of religious viewpoints in the school are known to, and approved by, the Department of Education and Training of the state.

Hagar Cohen: Another entry on the chaplaincy provider's website states they claimed the school property for the Lord.

Reader: Thank you to those who came on the School's Prayer Walk on Sunday. We claimed every gateway and the whole school property for the Lord ... 'I will give you every place where you set your foot.' Joshua 1:3.

Hagar Cohen: Reading this Max's mum Julia was shocked.

Julia: We also found on the blog that the church had gone around and blessed all the school gates and claimed the school land for the Lord, which seems quite bizarre, and quite horrifying really.

Hagar Cohen: Chaplaincy is voluntary. It means that parents like Julia, who are uneasy with this service, can request that the chaplain has no contact with their children. But until reading the blog, Julia didn't know Max's school had a chaplain.

Julia: Well I thought it was a bit over the top for a government high school, a secular school supposedly. Why do we need a dedicated scripture teacher, and also a chaplain? We then sought to find out what the role of the chaplain was, but there was no information whatsoever.

Hagar Cohen: So what kind of attempts did you make to try and understand what the role of the chaplain is?

Julia: Well we searched the school website and we asked around, because there were quite a considerable number of very concerned parents at this point. Once the blog had been circulated, and people realised there was an underlying intention to all of these, and it wasn't a lack of resources, but there was actually an intention to convert, it seemed to be, we started looking into it more deeply, and we found very little information regarding the chaplain.

Hagar Cohen: Julia then approached the school to get a copy of its application for funding from 2007.

Julia: The school said they would put it up on the website. The next day the actual role of the chaplain went up on the website, which was actually horrifying in itself as well, because he seemed to have unlimited abilities to go anywhere he liked in the school, and participate in anything. With the application, we were told that the school wouldn't give it out because of privacy concerns.

Hagar Cohen: It is important to understand the chronology here. Then prime minister, John Howard, introduced the program in 2007, but schools had to consult with parents before a decision was made to have a chaplain.

If they decided to agree, chaplains would start working in schools in 2008.

So to find out about the consultations in Ulladulla High, Background Briefing approached the school's past P&C president, Patricia White. She was the head of a 2007 committee who's made a decision to apply for chaplaincy funding. She recalls the consultation process.

Patricia White: Those consultations took part in two P&C meetings. It was brought to us whether we wanted to apply for the funding. And normally we have around 15 to 20 parents that turn [up] to P&C meetings, so to my recollection there would have been about that many parents there to discuss it. They decided yes, we'd apply for the grant.

Hagar Cohen: On what basis was the decision made to apply for funds to get a chaplain?

Patricia White: We saw it as additional money coming into the school that would employ somebody who could take up an area within the school, that this person could help children with the religion or scripture, and what they were doing in the school.

Hagar Cohen: But it's a public school, a public, secular school. Did you think that that might be a bit conflicting to have a person with a religious role?

Patricia White: That wasn't even brought up. It wasn't a full-length discussion debate whether we would have this or we wouldn't have it.

Hagar Cohen: Patricia White.

The principal at Ulladulla High, Tracey Provest, agreed to answer questions by email. She disputed claims that parents were not informed about the chaplain, and provided a school newsletter from 2008 with information about the chaplain and a copy of a PowerPoint presentation page which says the chaplain is part of the school's welfare team. The principal also said that parents are told about it at the Annual Meeting, just before the children start high school.

In response to concerns about the proselytising statements in the blog of the chaplaincy provider, Tracey Provest wrote:

Reader: The school would take action if the chaplain acted contrary to the program guidelines by attempting to persuade a student towards a particular set of religious beliefs.

Hagar Cohen: She also wrote that the school investigated one allegation about the chaplain's attempts to proselytise.

Reader: The chaplain was reminded about the chaplains' code of conduct in relation to such matters.

Hagar Cohen: Background Briefing contacted the United Christian Education Foundation. They refused our invitation for an interview. The chaplain, Doug Knight, received advice to answer questions only by email.

He says he interacts with the students through one-on-one sessions, assisting teachers in class visits. He knows only about one child whose parent requested no contact. Doug Knight says he asks children to pray with him only if he knows they have a faith background, but for other students he will pray in his own time. He will not comment on the statements on the blog because he says it's up to his employer to explain. However, he says he does not proselytise at the school.

A few weeks ago there was a meeting at Ulladulla High to discuss religion issues.

Background Briefing was there, but we were not allowed to record. It was a heated gathering, with bureaucrats from the Department of Education, the principal and other school staff, the Parents and Citizens Committee, church representatives and parents.

When the meeting ended, some parents talked about what had occurred. Here is Julia, and then Sarah.

Julia: We were given no firm commitments as to anything that would happen, and I think the reason that there are so many people hanging around now after the meeting, is because of all the unresolved issues and the things that people weren't allowed to say.

Sarah: The chaplain does have quite a bit to do with the children at this school. He attends excursions, he has lunch with the children in the playground. Yes, I feel that he has a lot more to do with the children than I would personally like. I've got major issues with the chaplaincy program, which I'm taking up with the Department. I don't even know how that ever got through.

Hagar Cohen: A former student at the school joined them. He disputed allegations raised during the meeting that students who don't want to participate in religious classes were put in the detention area.

Student: I thoroughly enjoyed my time in scripture. I'm a Christian myself. I don't believe any students have been victimised or intimidated or -- I don't know, words tonight were used like they were under video surveillance. That they were forced to sit with their faces against the wall; those are draconian measures that just don't occur, they didn't happen.

Julia: They did. That was my son.

Student: But was he put in that position because there was a video camera there, or were they put there under surveillance, or did it happen that they were put there outside the Principal's office where it was appropriate for them to be, and there happened to be video surveillance there.

Julia: I really don't think the detention area is an appropriate area ...

Student: A detention area?

Julia: Yes, it's the detention area.

Hagar Cohen: However, at the meeting, the deputy principal had apologised to those non-scripture children and their parents who felt humiliated by the school's treatment.

A hundred and thirty kilometres to the west of Brisbane is the town of Toowoomba. It's considered a major education centre in the area, with two university campuses and nearly 50 schools. It has a growing population of Christians, and it's also home to the Australian Secular Lobby who is against chaplaincy. The local MP in Toowoomba is Ian MacFarlane.

Ian MacFarlane: In my community which does have a strong religious and strong Christian base, then people are overwhelmingly in support of it. Yes, there are people who are opposed to it but, as I say, in every community there's going to be that. But if you ask me what my community wants, my community wants chaplaincy available to those children whose parents want them to have that service, and I think that's a good thing.

Hagar Cohen: Ian MacFarlane is a strong supporter of the chaplaincy program.

Ian MacFarlane: A chaplain obviously helps people understand how society works and how having a good moral compass makes you fit in to that society better, I think. If you're asking me my opinion what this community needs, it does need a spiritual compass.

Hagar Cohen: One of the people who rejects this argument is father of six Ron Williams. Together with the Secular Lobby, he's been emailing and ringing politicians, telling them that religion is being forced upon his children in their school. When chaplains started working in schools in 2008, most schools in his area opted in.

Ron Williams: It was a machine that was moving down the road unhindered, probably more like an old sacred cow wandering down the freeway that no-one was ever going to really come out and touch.

Ron Williams: It was being slam-dunked into schools really. It was almost a political manoeuvre with an election coming up. So we had made our own protest as high up in the chain as we could then, by writing to the then new federal education minister, Julia Gillard, so we couldn't protest much higher than that.

Hagar Cohen: So you feel like you've exhausted all avenues basically?

Ron Williams: We certainly did.

Hagar Cohen: So he's taken his protest all the way to the High Court.

Ron Williams: My wife and I and other parents that were concerned all spoke about it and I said, 'Well somebody's got to try and take this thing on in the High Court' which is about like standing at the base of Mount Everest in a pair of stubbies and wearing thongs, and saying, 'I think I might climb this.' But that was really the point where it seemed that that was the only avenue left to explore.

Hagar Cohen: A win for Ron Williams at the High Court won't mean chaplains will be banned from public schools. It only relates to the ability of the federal government to fund it.

The situation in Queensland is a little different from other states in that chaplains have been working there for 20 years. But before the national program, they were funded by local government and the community. The legal challenge will not affect these arrangements, but it will mean there will be less money to fund them.

Tim Mander: The federal funding, when it came in, caused chaplaincy to triple in numbers across the country. So if the funding was ceased, it would mean a severe cutback on the current number of chaplains, which is not good news for children.

Hagar Cohen: What's your estimate? What kind of cutback are we talking about?

Tim Mander: Well look, I can speak for my state where we have 510 chaplains. I would suspect that overnight we'd go back to 300.

Hagar Cohen: Apart from the High Court challenge, chaplaincy is now being reviewed by the federal government, and investigated by the Commonwealth Ombudsman.

There are two chaplains at the Lockyer District State High School, Pauline Sutton and Brad Lerch.

The school is in the town of Gatton, and it has 1,200 students. Many of them still struggle to recover from the devastating floods that hit the Lockyer Valley.

Brad Lerch: One of the significant things is when it starts raining again. It's like, there'd be a storm, and people would be on edge, you know, what's going to happen 'I wonder if it's going to be like the flood that we've just had.'

Hagar Cohen: The organisation that employs chaplains to send to Queensland schools is Scripture Union. It has a clear mission of evangelism. Chaplains have to follow these principles as part of their employment conditions. But Pauline Sutton says the government's requirement not to evangelise is clear-cut.

Pauline Sutton: We cannot evangelise or proselytise and when we read those agreements, read those policies, we knew that either you agree with that to work as a chaplain in a state school system, or you don't. And if you don't agree with that, you just don't do this work.

Hagar Cohen: The other chaplain at the Lockyer State High School, Brad Lerch, says he's noticed a change in attitude since federal funding came in.

Brad Lerch: Not a big change, but it's a little bit tighter now. And that's all right, because it's a state school, so that's fine. But the activities that we've run in recent years, because they're mindful of this whole issue, they've been so not speaking about God or faith or the Bible.

Hagar Cohen: Some time ago, Brad Lerch started an activity called 'Strength', a self-esteem program for boys. Its manual comes from Hillsong Church. But the program was recently changed because, Brad Lerch says, the school counsellor was uncomfortable with its religious content.

Brad Lerch: And our guidance officer, he was a little concerned perhaps, and that's fine by me. So it was changed, and that was fine.

Hagar Cohen: The program on self-esteem for boys, 'Strength', is offered in many Queensland schools and in the Lockyer Valley the local churches and volunteers help to run it.

John Haigh: My name is John Haigh, I'm the local pastor of the New Hope Lockyer Church which is one of the more contemporary style churches around Australia. Hillsong Church is probably our most well-known church in Australia.

Hagar Cohen: Lots of singing and dancing.

John Haigh: Lots of singing, lots of dancing, lots of youth, lots of more relevant style teaching and preaching.

Hagar Cohen: Pastor Haigh's church is involved with school programs that deal with self-esteem issues, bullying, sexuality and pregnancy.

John Haigh: The chaplains are doing such a great job, and they need our support to be an effective work in the school. What they do is brilliant, but it's only brilliant because of the support of the community.

Hagar Cohen: The programs and level of involvement from the church all need to be approved by the school principal. A program called Shine, for girls, which is the equivalent of Strength for boys, is also a self-esteem activity. It too comes from Hillsong, and Pastor Haigh says it's very successful.

John Haigh: Shine is a program aimed at lifting the self-esteem of girls. They're chosen because they perhaps haven't got parents at home that tell them 'We love you, we think you're special, we think you're the princess of this household.' And the girls are chosen and they're treated really well. They get taken out for manicuring and pampering sessions and dinners, and they learn how to speak to each other, and be put in environments where they're treated as somebody special. And the program culminates in a big dinner, and they have chauffeur-driven cars and taken out, and these kids, some of them have never had 10 cents spent on them, and now they're having a reasonable amount of money spent on them, and they know it. It's because someone is taking time, effort and money to care for them.

Hagar Cohen: It still is a church-based program, which means that religion has a role in this as well. What's the part of religion in this kind of self-esteem program?

John Haigh: OK. Anyone who has belonged to a Christian church will take the words of Jesus very seriously, where Jesus said himself, 'If you stop these kids coming to me, you're in big trouble.' It's the core values of a local church.

Hagar Cohen: But what kind of religious messages are being taught at a program like Shine?

John Haigh: Most of the time there's none. There is no outreach, wild-eyed evangelism happening in local schools, that's not why they're there. If you get told a Holden car is a good car to drive, and you drive one and it works, you'll be happy to drive a Holden car. If you follow the teachings of Jesus and are involved in the church community, you'll realise that it works, and some of these kids need those values of what Jesus teaches and they need to be shown them and sometimes to be shared with them.

Hagar Cohen: Pastor Haigh encourages pupils from all backgrounds to participate in programs like Shine.

John Haigh: There's no barriers to it. Half the people who come to my church would not call themselves Christians yet. So it's an open door.

Hagar Cohen: Last year, 14-year-old Olivia (not her real name) completed the Shine group, which is run by her school chaplain in Toowoomba.

Olivia: In primary school, in Grade 7, all the girls did Shine, and it was a course that teaches girls that they are valuable. They told us that all of us are beautiful, and we should be happy with ourselves.

Hagar Cohen: Was it good?

Olivia: It was -- we did a lot of fun things like make-up, hair, straighten our hair, curl our hair ...

Olivia: I didn't really want to go to church. But they were encouraging it, saying that it's good if we do. They just said church is fun, you should go along. The way they were bringing a lot of Christian things into the whole program.

Hagar Cohen: After the Shine incident, Olivia's brother came home with a permission slip, asking his father to approve his participation in the Shine equivalent for boys, the program called Strength.

The permission slip in this school has no mention of religion, the church, Christianity or the chaplain. It reads in part:

Reader: Strength is a fun, life-equipping, values-forming course based on life principles, including the belief that each young man was created with purpose, being strong, significant and full of potential. Topics covered will be teamwork and friendship, resilience, work/careers, anger management, relationship-building with girls, respect and party safe.

Hagar Cohen: After the family's experience with Shine, the father, Peter, knew Strength is religious. But his son insisted he wanted to join the activity, and Peter agreed.

Peter: I tend to give my children as much freedom as I can, and so I don't stop my children from attending these things. I try to make them aware however, of influence or manipulation. It's proselytisation by stealth, it undermines the whole concept of education.

Hagar Cohen: Christian activities at public schools with chaplains are common, and chaplains are encouraged to promote them.

A teacher from Northern Queensland has become so concerned about what she sees as the insidious nature of religion in state schools she decided to blow the whistle.

The teacher, who wants to be known as Barbara, says at her school, Christian activities are promoted as young and fun. Often, she says, there will be no mention of religious content.

We've re-voiced Barbara's comments to protect her identity.

Barbara: There are quite a number of incidences where chaplains invite different Christian groups into the school, and they run lunchtime activities where students are invited to the event without necessarily having the knowledge that it is a religious-based organisation that they're going to visit.

Hagar Cohen: Can you give me an example? I mean, what's being told about those events?

Barbara: Generally speaking it would be just advertised by school notices on parade: there's a group coming that are singers, or they're a band, or a dance group, and they would present to the students and have an underlying Christian message.

Hagar Cohen: And the kids or their parents will know nothing about the Christian background of the activity?

Barbara: Very rarely there would ever be any notice of that.

Hagar Cohen: At the end of one such event, where a church music group performed, a booklet was distributed in the school. Background Briefing has a copy of that booklet. It has colourful pages divided into sections with biblical interpretations. It says that:

Christians are protected from demons, but non-believers may be possessed.

Homosexuality is shameful.

And a segment about the benefits of celibacy reads:

Reader: The myth of safe sex is finally exposed for the lie it is.

Hagar Cohen: And that condoms:

Reader: Condone promiscuity.

Hagar Cohen: Barbara says although she's concerned, he won't be raising this with the school management.

Barbara: It's been impossible for me to do that, because if the principal fully supports the chaplain, you're seen as undermining a valuable resource in the school.

Hagar Cohen: If it's seen as in the children's or the students' best interests, would that be taken as a positive step for you to take, to raise these concerns?

Barbara: It's a question of resourcing really. Schools need good-quality student counsellors, psychologists and increasingly more professionals to assist with the complex problems that students have. In the absence of that, the chaplain is often the person that schools turn to, because there are no other support networks. If I were to make some noise about that sort of thing, I'd be labelled as a troublemaker.

Hagar Cohen: As a young man of 20, Beau Walker enrolled to be a school chaplain. It was in 2007 when he was a regular church-goer. But after two years, Beau lost his faith and resigned. He says he was uncomfortable with some evangelical activities he was told to lead at the public school in Brisbane.

Beau Walker: My history as a chaplain was I procrastinated a lot on all the issues that were involved with Christian-based teachings. Like the only thing that I actually got started completely at the school was a breakfast. I actually got the church members closest to the school I was at to come and to run a breakfast at the school, because I found that that wasn't -- like they didn't get a chance to proselytise I guess, and it really was based upon serving the needs of the children, you know, getting them fed. So I was happy to do that, but any other issues like I never actually started the lunchtime program.

Hagar Cohen: Because did you feel that that was a way of proselytising?

Beau Walker: I did. I felt that in a way I saw it as manipulating because we had lots of games and things, and then you would put doctrine into the session, like you would talk a little bit about the Bible, or do some kind of moral teaching that you could link to the Bible. And I definitely disagreed with that.

Hagar Cohen: Beau Walker's employer is the main chaplaincy provider in Queensland and is called Scripture Union. It was established 80 years ago and started working in Queensland schools from the '90s. When the federal chaplaincy program was introduced, new guidelines and a code of conduct came along.

The director of the Scripture Union is Tim Mander.

Tim Mander: The guidelines are very straightforward, that chaplains are not to evangelise or proselytise and we strongly endorse that particular limitation.

Hagar Cohen: If we're talking about chaplains who are having to abide by Scripture Union's aims and working principles, one of which is to 'encourage people of all ages to meet God daily through the Bible and prayer', so that they may 'come to personal faith in our Lord Jesus Christ' and 'become committed church members'. Whereas the Department of Education guidelines say chaplains are not to 'persuade an individual toward a particular set of religious beliefs'. In light of this apparent contradiction, are you trying to undermine the chaplaincy program?

Tim Mander: No, look, there's absolutely no contradiction whatsoever. We're talking about totally two different things. One is the guidelines of how chaplains operate, the other is conditions of employment for people who are employed by Scripture Union. So to be part of our organisation, you have to be a Christian and so those objectives that you mentioned are the orthodox beliefs of Christians and the orthodox mission of Christian organisations. Now that doesn't mean that we can't work appropriately in a context which doesn't allow evangelism. Our mission is far more holistic than simply direct evangelism, if you like, and in this context it is not appropriate to actually act that way.

Hagar Cohen: So if it's not appropriate for the chaplains to act this way, why is it in your mission statement?

Tim Mander: Well because we have other ministries, other than school chaplaincy. School chaplaincy's not the only thing that we do.

Hagar Cohen: But school chaplains have to abide by these principles. I mean they look pretty obvious.

Tim Mander: No, I'm afraid I don't accept that. I mean what we're talking about is the membership of an organisation or the employment conditions of an organisation, not how a chaplain operates.

Hagar Cohen: Although Tim Mander says when the National School Chaplaincy Program was first rolled out, there was some confusion. Some of his chaplains were openly proselytising.

Tim Mander: Now when this program first started, there were some people that didn't understand that from a chaplaincy point of view. When reports came back to us, very early, and I mean within a matter of days of a chaplain being in a school, we made sure that those chaplains were removed immediately.

Hagar Cohen: In the Northern Territory, concern about chaplaincy became so heated the Ombudsman there decided to look into the matter. Her final report was scathing. The report sparked a second investigation, this time by the Commonwealth Ombudsman.

In the Northern Territory, the controversy began when Kim Hawthorne found out there was a chaplain working at the school her children went to and the chaplaincy provider was a church right next to the school. The church had been hosting a service for paedophile rehabilitation.

Kim Hawthorne: Essentially we made noises to the effect of we didn't obviously want a person who had numerous convictions for sexual offences against children, being housed near children, and due to that particular situation, I became aware that there was a chaplain in this actual school, and he was the same person that was housing the paedophile.

Hagar Cohen: There were no accusations or suggestions that the chaplain himself had personal connections with paedophilia, but Kim Hawthorne did start to ask questions. She wanted to know about the benefit of chaplaincy at this school and the school's choice to partner with a Uniting Church, the 'Living Water Church'. She saw it as a conflict of interest.

This kind of questioning wasn't at all appreciated, and one day at a school council meeting, a teachers union representative said that the children of parents who questioned chaplaincy would not be taught at the school.

Kim Hawthorne: So we turned out to what we thought was a normal school meeting, and literally walked into an ambush. Walked into a room of about 30 teachers, with their union representative there. And then we were essentially sat down and read a statement stating that they were going to, if people were complaining about services, that they had the right to withdraw their teaching services. The Education Department was good in the sense that they stopped that, and essentially said 'That's not right.'

Hagar Cohen: These allegations were documented in the Northern Territory Ombudsman's Report. In the Report, the Department of Education reassured the Ombudsman that withdrawing teaching services in this way would be unlawful, and it prevented the teachers from taking this step.

Another parent, Clare Cortes, was sending letters to parents, to let them know they have a right to request the chaplain has no contact with their children.

Claire Cortes: The non-contact order was an option I gave myself. It was never put to me to fill out a non-contact form. I'm actually the person who designed and distributed those forms, and made sure other parents with concerns within my local primary and high school, had the opportunity to fill out and submit those forms.

Hagar Cohen: Although Clare Cortes is a strong Catholic herself, she says religion belongs to the private domain and should not be imposed on the children by the school.

Claire Cortes: I was very attracted to the public school system with the lack of one specific religion being taught. I wanted the children to have a broader approach to life. Yeah, and unfortunately that choice was taken away from me.

Hagar Cohen: At the primary school, nine-year-old student Aidan started experiencing social difficulties. Aidan's mum asked the school to provide counselling assistance, but it wasn't available.

Aidan was being bullied for quite some time, and he was having problems coping with it until one day, in class, he snapped.

Aidan Cross: I said that I was just so angry that I lost control of what I was saying, and I said that I'd bring a knife to school, and that I'd stab him until he died.

Hagar Cohen: This outburst was in front of two teachers and about 50 students. When Aidan's mother heard about it, she was insistent her son needed counselling, and the school agreed.

Cathy Cross: They suggested a guy that they had at the school that was working with them, and I knew, I happened to know he was from the Uniting Church, and I sort of said to them, 'I have no problems with the religion, but I don't think you could use religion to address Aidan's concerns', and he said, 'Oh no, no, he's very professional. He can differentiate between his two roles.' So I said, 'Great, fine.' I'm thinking that he's the school counsellor in school, and outside of school has a position in the church.

Hagar Cohen: Cathy Cross assumed the pastor was also a qualified counsellor. And she agreed for him to having one-on-one sessions with Aidan. In reality, the pastor had no qualifications. Here, Aidan says what the chaplain discussed with him.

Aidan Cross: He told me to keep a journal of my feelings and stuff, like to draw pictures of how I'm feeling, and to try and help me cope with it, and like gave me suggestions on how to cope with my anger.

Hagar Cohen: And what else was he telling you about how to cope with those feelings?

Aidan Cross: He gave me suggestions like when I get angry, to like count from 1 to 10 in my head slowly.

Hagar Cohen: Was it helpful, what he was saying?

Aidan Cross: Not really. When I'd do it, and the kids would go... a bit funny. To me it was like they had something else to make fun of me about.

Hagar Cohen: It was later revealed that the chaplain was using a particular program that can only be delivered by professional counsellors. The one-on-one sessions continued and Aidan wasn't improving.

Cathy Cross:

Cathy Cross: So I started investigating and that was when I found out that there was no qualification, that he wasn't the school counsellor. I immediately put in a no contact form for both my son and my daughter. So he'd have no further dealings with them.

Hagar Cohen: Cathy Cross decided to take Aiden to a professional psychologist at her own expense. After making an assessment the doctor diagnosed Aidan with Asperger's syndrome, a high-functioning variant on the autism spectrum.

Larry Cashion: My name is Dr Larry Cashion. I'm a consulting psychologist specialising in autism and developmental disorders in children. Well initially I understood that there was some pastoral care going on, but when I found out that there'd actually had been involvement with counselling and possibly even crossing over to some psychological issues, I was quite disturbed by the way that he'd been treated by the chaplain, and also that Aidan hadn't been referred.

Hagar Cohen: Larry Cashion was invited to a meeting to discuss his concerns with the principal, the Department of Education and the chaplain. During that meeting the chaplain explained the treatment he chose for Aidan.

Larry Cashion: Some of the issues that he was talking to Aidan about -- feelings, and how to resolve them, and anger management, and these are the sorts of things that generally trained professionals are engaged in. And it was very clear to me that he was given an opportunity to make some very far-reaching assertions about his behaviour that really weren't psychologically supported.

Hagar Cohen: What did you make of the chaplain's assessment of Aidan when he was talking during that meeting?

Larry Cashion: It did alarm me. Talking about Aidan reporting suicidal behaviour, talking about him bringing a knife to school to threaten other children, and the chaplain said words to the effect of 'In my opinion it wasn't a serious issue', and in my opinion, at all times when things like that happen, it is a serious issue that needs to be dealt with by a professional, and needs to be dealt with immediately.

Hagar Cohen: Larry Cashion made his opinion known to the Department of Education during that same meeting.

Larry Cashion: I found it quite interesting that I was told that the chaplain wasn't engaged in counselling or psychology, and I reiterated my point, and explained that I had been a university lecturer, I was a psychologist and in my opinion it definitely crossed that line.

Hagar Cohen: And those concerns would you say, were dismissed?

Larry Cashion: Dismissed and then ignored.

Hagar Cohen: The complaints about the chaplaincy at the Humpty Doo Primary School led to two government investigations at state and federal levels. Both found there was no ground to withdraw funding for chaplaincy. The Territory's Ombudsman, Carolyn Richards, also investigated the claims and found the chaplaincy provider had breached its Code of Conduct.

Her main point was that one-on-one sessions should be banned after she found that in some cases, including Aidan's, the chaplains overstepped the mark.

The Living Water Church still provides chaplains in all those schools.

Cathy Cross removed her children from the public school system in the Territory. Aidan now goes to a private school, and her daughter to a Catholic school.

Cathy Cross: There's never been an acknowledgment, there's never been an apology, because we now face the costs of private non-government schooling, I've been faced with huge financial burdens that we weren't prepared for with our two children. I've even spoken to them once the findings were released and the Ombudsman offered conciliation through their Department, or mediation, so we could come to an agreeable compromise, and their reaction has been very severe and very 'No, we did nothing wrong.'

Hagar Cohen: The other parents from Humpty Doo school interviewed in this program also left the public education system in the Territory as a result.

Kim Hawthorne now lives in WA because she doesn't want her kids to go to Northern Territory schools, and Clare Cortes sends her children to a Catholic school.

Minister Peter Garrett says if there are incidents where chaplains are breaching the guidelines, they are only isolated. The main feedback he's receiving is positive.

Peter Garrett: The key and important thing from my perspective is that the feedback that we get about the National Chaplaincy Program is overwhelmingly positive, that we do want to extend this program, and in extending it, we do want to see whether there are ways in which both the guidelines and the delivery of the program can be strengthened and improved, and I'm very open to doing that.

Hagar Cohen: Background Briefing's coordinating producer is Linda McGinniss. Research, Anna Whitfeld. Technical producer this week is Philip MacKellar. Our executive producer is Kirsten Garrett. And you can have your say when Australia Talks looks at the issues, That's Australia Talks on Wednesday from 4pm in the West and 6pm everywhere else.