knowmad wrote:I wonder....
Police departments and the military are pretty adamant about prosecuting assault on one of their service animals to the point of referring to the Animal as "officer so-n-so". they use these honorifics in court to add weight to the heinousness of crime committed and to give a human face to the victim.

Actually.. you're on to something here. A drug dog is indeed referred to and subject to the same protection as an officer. Thus.. if you say that you don't consent to a search, this can be inferred to the dog as well since the dog is looked at as an "officer". If they didn't have probable cause for an officer to search, then they don't have probable cause for a dog to search since dog=officer. This is how many cases get thrown out.

Googled a bit, and turns out FlexYourRights has done a write up all about the issue.
I'm not seeing a date?
Its probably written before November, since it mentions medicinal weed in CA and CO, but does not mention legalization in CO or WA.

Why don't ya stick your head in that hole and find out? ~piehole
Plan for the worst, expect the best. Make the most out of it under any conditions. If you cannot do that you will never enjoy yourself. ~CrispyDave

Well my dear friends, I pruned this thread back a day and moved the posts that appear to be more than 2012 Experiences with Police.
The thread drift was turning into some personal attacks.
Let's try to keep this about your experiences with police on the playa in 2012.

Shambala wrote:Well my dear friends, I pruned this thread back a day and moved the posts that appear to be more than 2012 Experiences with Police.

Sham....

Sham, I don't think MyDearFriend had posted in this thread?

Why don't ya stick your head in that hole and find out? ~piehole
Plan for the worst, expect the best. Make the most out of it under any conditions. If you cannot do that you will never enjoy yourself. ~CrispyDave

The relevant part was the point that if you are arrested, a doggie search may be upheld in court.
This is true.

Eric, I think, said it was pointless to discuss that dogs can't predict a successful search without magic.
I disagree.

It may not be relevant to your current arrest, but bad law and practice is not a fixed and irrevocable thing.
Case law in constantly in flux.
The worse the problem is, the more important it is to try to change it.
And it is not a matter of only waiting for a court to do it.
Even exposing bad conduct, as fake science is, can help make change.
Law and practice can be changed state by state, city by city, person by person.
Power will always be abused and it is a constant fight for what is right.

But yes, a crazy judge can do what they want, and do, regardless of the case law or the supreme court.

I will share an experience I had with police on burn night. It was so profound to me that I repeated the story to several people, but you may not find it that remarkable.

As the fire spinners were milling around getting ready to get started, I noticed a lone uniformed police officer standing and waiting for things to get started. THIS IS THE THING I FOUND AMAZING! Yes, in a crowd of 50K+ people, this lone police officer felt safe enough to not feel the need to travel in a group, or with another officer to control this crowd. He felt completely confident that he would NOT have any issues that would require him to need help. If there was even a 1% chance of a problem, he would have been required to have a partner with him.

At the moment I saw this officer, it was clear to me what the police thought of us as a group. We were trustworthy, sincere, peaceful and fun. I made it a point to go over and start a conversation and really enjoyed the brief chat.

That's a cool story, Shambala. I was talking to my friend here at work who went in '11 and he said the same thing. He had no issues whatsoever. My personal experience in life at these sorts of events (ok, no event is likely like this one, but you know...) is that, unless you're being an idiot/jerk/obnoxious, police don't want to bother you. Sure there are exceptions, but they have other things to worry about. Their primary concern is typically the well-being of the attendees. They want to ensure no one gets hurt (liability) and that things don't get "dangerous". I've worked with a good number of cops, and even have a friend who is a detective locally. And a good percentage of them just want to do their job.

Now, shooting at random cars in LA b/c you think they sort of look like the car of a madman, that's plain stupid, even if emotions are running high.

Thanks for all the comments people. I just bought my tickets yesterday and am super excited!!!

Oh, one quick question. Someone said on here (somewhere...sorry, couldn't find it) that if you have your camp set up in a way that it is enclosed (maybe with campers, a small "fence", etc.) it becomes your personal space and thus makes it eligible for personal property/space/4th amendment search rights. Whereas if your camp is wide open, so that people could "walk through it", the cops can just walk through it b/c it is public space. Does that sound right?

Earthwalker wrote:Oh, one quick question. Someone said on here (somewhere...sorry, couldn't find it) that if you have your camp set up in a way that it is enclosed (maybe with campers, a small "fence", etc.) it becomes your personal space and thus makes it eligible for personal property/space/4th amendment search rights. Whereas if your camp is wide open, so that people could "walk through it", the cops can just walk through it b/c it is public space. Does that sound right?

Thank you!!!

Pretty much correct - just remember that if they smell something "suspicious" in the air, they may be able to investigate. I highly recommend a public/private set-up.

Note: if it can be viewed from the street (or a public area) & they decide it's something they want to investigate (sex, drugs, etc), they can. Even the "sex" oriented camps - both fetish and actual sex, generally have a public space and a space with signage warning of adult activities beyond this area - that's okay as long as the activities are legal, and not visible outside of the "adult space". I point this out because in '03 I had 3 gay friends busted because the police decided their fooling-around was in a public area, not a private one, and they spent a night in Lovelock (even though none of the straight couples around them doing similar things did... )

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

On the night of Saturday, August 25th, six folks from NYC who had driven across country in a van got arrested about 35 miles east of Lovelock. Despite the presence of less than 1 oz. of marijuana, and 1 grinder, both of which belonged to only one of the occupants, who additionally was the only one aware of their presence, all six were charged with multiple felonies & misdemeanors. Multiple as in 3+ charges.

If marijuana is supposed to be decriminalized in Nevada, why did these folks receive such harsh treatment and spend a few days in jail? Because as Cartman would put it, they did not respect the policeman's authority. And how did they disrespect his authority? By not consenting to a search, and making him get a warrant. Which he did.

Now everybody on here is all "Know your rights" this, that & the other thing, but in the unfortunate event you are detained by a mean, vindictive, power-tripping cop, and it should be assumed all are until proven otherwise, he can, and will screw your life up pretty seriously.

Are there plastic bags of any size, anywhere else in the vehicle? That's intent to distribute.
Did you come from another state? That's trafficking. And a host of other interstate violations.
etc., etc., etc., you get the idea.

So, if you get pulled over, should you follow the "Am I free to go?" "I do not consent to a search." script? Absolutely. I think the odds are better that way. Especially if you're holding anything heavier than weed. But, if you happen to get stopped by a very short, very bald, very mean white patrolman from Pershing County, it's not prime event time, and all you've got is a little bit of weed, it might be worth it to give it up. Because you can count on him destroying some significant life opportunities from the resultant criminal record. That means government or government related employment of any kind - military, emergency services, etc. You won't be able to go to Canada any more. Computers at the border are networked to the US FBI database. It doesn't matter what the disposition is, you'll be judged on the original charge. Especially since only the original charge is listed.

A couple folks from that van actually made it up to the event Wednesday afternoon, where one of them snuffed out a couple undercover narcs at his camp bar. This was followed up by them sending in a black, female, limp-faking, cane-carrying, undercover cop from NYC; surprising they had one of those on staff. But that's a another story for another day.

Somewhere earlier in this thread, one of the participants brought up the idea of a dedicated Legal Defense Fund. I think it was Gyre. Well that's exactly what I'm trying to do.

In an earlier post right here on eplaya, I asked for an introduction to any representatives from the Nevada ACLU. I wanted to present this idea directly to the community, on Playa, and due to the similarity in purpose, it makes more sense to do so in conjunction with them. But my phone calls and emails have not been returned. So if anybody knows those folks, please do get in touch. I'd like to do something productive with these lemons.
Extra water after being released. The sign says "From the Burning Man community to yours"

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

The aclu is a coalition, so response times can be erratic.
You usually have to write to them.

Re the charges, charged is not convicted.
Nevada is not a high justice state.
Whatever the charges were, they may actually be much lower than they used to be in nevada.

When I have offered rides to the burn, I have posted "NO Drugs' which has made some people a little nervous.
What happened in your case is exactly why I did that.
It's a very useful thing in court.

Canada has a program for rehabilitation to approve someone for entry.
It is a long process, so if it matters, start it when you can.
Fyi, dui is a more serious issue for them than many other things.

I have probably posted that refusing a search and being as friendly as they allow you to be is a delicate form of diplomacy.
Very few cops actually will wait for a search warrant if you appear relaxed about it, which I am.
i also find that having a carry permit carries a lot of weight in any traffic stop.
I am adding an additional card to that now, with additional background clearances.

I hope you follow through fighting the charges.

Have you contacted the burner legal group?
I am sure they will support a defense fund.

Supafly_fresh wrote:On the night of Saturday, August 25th, six folks from NYC who had driven across country in a van got arrested about 35 miles east of Lovelock. Despite the presence of less than 1 oz. of marijuana, and 1 grinder, both of which belonged to only one of the occupants, who additionally was the only one aware of their presence, all six were charged with multiple felonies & misdemeanors. Multiple as in 3+ charges.

If marijuana is supposed to be decriminalized in Nevada, why did these folks receive such harsh treatment and spend a few days in jail? Because as Cartman would put it, they did not respect the policeman's authority. And how did they disrespect his authority? By not consenting to a search, and making him get a warrant. Which he did.

So, if you get pulled over, should you follow the "Am I free to go?" "I do not consent to a search." script? Absolutely. I think the odds are better that way. Especially if you're holding anything heavier than weed. But, if you happen to get stopped by a very short, very bald, very mean white patrolman from Pershing County, it's not prime event time, and all you've got is a little bit of weed, it might be worth it to give it up. Because you can count on him destroying some significant life opportunities from the resultant criminal record. That means government or government related employment of any kind - military, emergency services, etc. You won't be able to go to Canada any more. Computers at the border are networked to the US FBI database. It doesn't matter what the disposition is, you'll be judged on the original charge. Especially since only the original charge is listed.

No, the proper course of action is to not give them any reason to search your belongings -- including not granting search permission or voluntarily admitting to a crime.

Still, we're only reading a partial story here. You have not specified the full circumstances regarding these six individuals who were arrested. What are the details here? All we are hearing is that there was an arrest. Did their van smell like pot? Did they actually talk to the police besides giving the most basic, required information? Was there visible evidence of drugs? What were the circumstances of their pull-over?

The fact that there was an arrest --- and that the cop actually obtained a search warrant --- leads me to believe that the cop very much detected something of extreme suspicion. That doesn't happen very often. More than likely one of those six people fucked up.

A couple folks from that van actually made it up to the event Wednesday afternoon, where one of them snuffed out a couple undercover narcs at his camp bar. This was followed up by them sending in a black, female, limp-faking, cane-carrying, undercover cop from NYC; surprising they had one of those on staff. But that's a another story for another day.

So what? They're everywhere. I hope you weren't serving minors, smoking pot in front of them, offering the dude drugs, or being stupid.

In an earlier post right here on eplaya, I asked for an introduction to any representatives from the Nevada ACLU. I wanted to present this idea directly to the community, on Playa, and due to the similarity in purpose, it makes more sense to do so in conjunction with them. But my phone calls and emails have not been returned. So if anybody knows those folks, please do get in touch. I'd like to do something productive with these lemons.

They'll probably be horrified that you believe that voluntarily giving up your rights as a ridiculous "hedge" will improve your situation. Why is that? Because now that you've admitted to a crime, that mean, vindictive "white" patrolman can legally search whatever he wants with impunity. Yeah, that's right. No overstepping his bounds now. The cop has full-on permission to find other evidence of criminal activity because you fucked up by admitting to a crime.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

I don't think it's hard for any officer in nevada to get a search warrant.
It can still be challenged.

It takes time that could be used elsewhere and leaves their behavior on the court record.
It all works on bluster and hidden extortion now, ie plea bargains.

It's possible to render an officer useless as a discredited witness, permanently.

The last complaint I filed, I made a specific effort to illustrate incompetence and unfitness for duty to their commanders, rather than pressing an official complaint.
I nominated a particular officer as having a long and extensive career relationship with internal affairs.
They were under the impression he is some sort of hot shot, so time well spent.

Just in the news here that hundreds of officers are currently off the streets while under investigation.
Hundreds.

Nope Bbadger mj has been decriminalized in Nevada before this year. Possession of mj is still a federal offense and state entities can still charge it as such if they want. And we've had medical mj here for years too. It just passed our state laws where we can now have dispensaries.

Attention spans being what they are, I was trying to keep the original post as concise as possible. I'm also avoiding putting in too many specific details, but since you asked, there was a minor traffic law violation and the initial stop on Highway 80 was legitimate. The was no visible evidence of drugs, contraband or paraphernalia. The cop was able to obtain a warrant by claiming he smelled marijuana. This was a lie. Cops lie. Fact of life.

Considering the circumstances, the experience of these travelers represents a worst case scenario encounter with law enforcement. Every person writing here that gave up their weed was able to be on their way with a ticket and $525 fine. Pragmatically speaking, this outcome is vastly superior to arrest, multiple serious charges, a few days in jail, missing the event and $5,000+ in lawyers fees. As previously stated, I do think that people should stand up for their rights, in principle. But everyone also needs full disclosure so they can make an informed decision about what's best for them, in their particular situation. The outcome for these van folks is an extreme, and fortunately uncommon, but real potentiality. Take the sure thing, or risk something far more severe?

The encounter with undercover cops attempting to narc out the camp was included because the topic of this thread is "2012 Experiences with Police". Those were experiences with police that occurred in 2012. Based on the collective experiences expressed here, if 2013 is anything like last year, you can expect:

1) To be hassled on Rte. 447 under the pretense of drugs on the way in.
2) To be pulled over just past gate if your license plate is obstructed in any way. If you tie the license plate to the rearmost bike on your rack, you can get pulled over after dark because it wasn't illuminated.
3) Undercover cops will be prowling the playa, trying to coerce you into illegal conduct, usually drug related, so they can arrest you.
4) Undercover cops will try to infiltrate your camp so they can arrest you. Usually for some sort of drug related offense.
5) If you happen to utter anything slightly less than flattering, or even completely innocuous but legitimately critical within earshot of a police officer, they will accost you and probably arrest you. An example being "Hey, its night time! Slow down that car!"

Additionally, please be sure that any external links posted as reference actually support whatever assertion is being made. Misinformation just fosters confusion.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

One more note of caution for all those traveling from the east and must pass through Pershing County/Lovelock. Pershing county lost their battle in the fight to charge burning man more fees this year.

You don't think that the powers that be in Pershing aren't pissed? So drive safe and obey ALL traffic laws, make sure your vehicles lights,etc are in working order and keep your shit on the down low.

Good advice Lucky, you're absolutely right. There was always tension between Pershing & the Man, and it's become outright hostility over the last year. The Mormon judge driving the action against Burning Man will be embarrassed by his loss, will be pissed, and we can be assured that marching orders from Lovelock will be to prosecute with extreme prejudice.

I would advise anyone traveling from East to avoid Pershing county altogether until hitting the dust. Even if it means going several hours out of the way, they are, quite frankly, out to get us. And since most Burners are not particularly inconspicuous, we're easy targets.

Good luck everyone & please stay safe. Like it or not, we are a persecuted minority.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

lucky420 wrote:When I say decriminalized I mean under an oz and charged as a misdemeanor... The Feds? Well they'll fuck you most every time, they really will.

Ah, you're right. NRS § 453.336 makes it a misdemeanor for personal possession of less than 1 oz.

Supafly_fresh wrote:Attention spans being what they are, I was trying to keep the original post as concise as possible. I'm also avoiding putting in too many specific details, but since you asked, there was a minor traffic law violation and the initial stop on Highway 80 was legitimate. The was no visible evidence of drugs, contraband or paraphernalia. The cop was able to obtain a warrant by claiming he smelled marijuana. This was a lie. Cops lie. Fact of life.

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Something in the traffic violation prompted the officer to escalate the situation to a full on warrant-based search. Given the serious nature of the penalties, what happened in the follow-up court procedures concerning the event? Many of these accusations should and would be tossed out.

Considering the circumstances, the experience of these travelers represents a worst case scenario encounter with law enforcement. Every person writing here that gave up their weed was able to be on their way with a ticket and $525 fine. Pragmatically speaking, this outcome is vastly superior to arrest, multiple serious charges, a few days in jail, missing the event and $5,000+ in lawyers fees. As previously stated, I do think that people should stand up for their rights, in principle. But everyone also needs full disclosure so they can make an informed decision about what's best for them, in their particular situation. The outcome for these van folks is an extreme, and fortunately uncommon, but real potentiality. Take the sure thing, or risk something far more severe?

Hedging your bets with the expectation that the cop will let you go might be a good decision if you're carrying significant amounts of harder substances, such as if you're a dealer with loads of contraband, but that's a rare case. Also, most of the responses here involving paying the $525 fine are more to the effect that the person quickly buckled under pressure and/or did something stupid such as talk, or present a medical marijuana card (direct evidence) to the cop as if it means anything. They weren't to the effect that taking the fine was an informed decision, but rather a misinformed decision as they played directly into the cop's social engineering practices. A better choice would have been to shut-the-fuck-up and give the cop no ammunition by which to escalate an issue, or contradict actual evidence.

Some bitter experience some people had is no reason to assume that far harsher sentencing is inevitable, and that it is worth throwing yourself at the mercy of the cop with the hope that he'll just give you a fine and not everything else you were trying to avoid. What those six people went through, assuming that they did do anything stupid like talk, is going to be an exceptional incident. Moreover, cases like these often get thrown out and reduced, especially for the people who were not in direct possession and with flimsy evidence of intent to distribute. Contesting these arrests may even help keep that shitty Pershing County cop on suspended duty next time.

The encounter with undercover cops attempting to narc out the camp was included because the topic of this thread is "2012 Experiences with Police". Those were experiences with police that occurred in 2012.

Yeah, but you purposely didn't want to follow up with any details. A potential narc dressed up and going to your camp. Big deal. How did you react? Did anything go wrong? What proved your suspicions?

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

The cop was able to obtain a warrant by claiming he smelled marijuana. This was a lie. Cops lie. Fact of life.

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Something in the traffic violation prompted the officer to escalate the situation to a full on warrant-based search. Given the serious nature of the penalties, what happened in the follow-up court procedures concerning the event? Many of these accusations should and would be tossed out.

It most definitely was a lie. At no point was marijuana smoked in the vehicle for the duration of the trip. There's a lot of traffic on I-80 Saturday night and it's easy to tell who's going to the event. The traffic stop was legitimate and this cop may have just automatically assumed there were drugs present. He also may not have been assigned to the event, and saw this as an opportunity to get a feather in his cap. Believe it or not, there are people in the surrounding towns who disapprove of the event and consequently dislike participants.

Hedging your bets... might be a good decision if you're carrying significant amounts of harder substances

A better choice would have been to shut-the-fuck-up and give the cop no ammunition by which to escalate an issue

I completely disagree with your first point, and partially agree with the second. The greater the quantity and/or harder the substance, the more steadfast one needs to be in maintaining formal detainee protocol. However, this is not relevant to the immediate discussion at hand.

With respect to the second point, it all depends on the circumstances. If the NV marijuana decriminalization cutoff is 1 oz., and this is a matter that should be accurately clarified, an individual has less than 1 oz., a policeman asserts they are aware of its presence, and offers the $525 ticket, it might be worth considering. Alternatively, if an individual sticks to the civil rights script, the consequences can be extraordinarily harsh. What an individual is charged with is at the discretion of the arresting officer, and if he's he vindictive type he'll tack on everything that's remotely plausible. Even if it's less than an ounce, a person can still be charged with felony possession. The cop may decide that you were a pain in the ass to make him follow formal procedure, and a lot of cops see it this way, so he's going to show you that he's the man. Regardless of veracity, and unless they're disposed of effectively (which is very expensive), these charges will follow a person around for the rest of their life. A couple ways were mentioned in my original post.

cases like these often get thrown out and reduced, especially for the people who were not in direct possession and with flimsy evidence of intent to distribute.

This doesn't happen by itself. It requires an attorney, and attorneys aren't cheap. Budget at least $5,000 for the privilege of a reasonable chance at beating charges, regardless of how frivolous and unsubstantiated. For most people, this is a considerable sum of money. For many, it's an insurmountable obstacle. Hence my attempt to start a dedicated legal defense fund.

Contesting these arrests may even help keep that shitty Pershing County cop on suspended duty next time.

Yeah, and if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hopped.

I get the impression that you're coming from a very ideological, albeit naive, perspective. In the perfect world, truth, justice & the American way would prevail, nobody would experience injustice, abuse of authority would not go unpunished, and there is equality for all under the law. All we have to do is follow the police stop civil rights script, and after a brief inconvenience we'll be on our happy way. However, the world is flawed, filled with and run by imperfect people. People lie, especially when it's in their interest to do so, and people are petty and vindictive. Just like any other organization, law enforcement agencies have their own performance incentives. Their job is to arrest people, and the more they do, the better their career prospects. However much leeway there is in the performance their duties, you can be sure they'll operate on the margin most favorable to them individually.

So, while you say everyone should always go by the book, regardless of circumstance, I say consider this additional information before deciding what's right for you. If past performance is any indication of future returns, it sounds like most cops who offered the ticket held up their end. And there is at least one cop out there who was extraordinarily overenthusiastic in the execution of his duties. Considering that he's done it before, there's no reason to assume he won't again, in a similar situation. And the lives of those on the receiving end will be seriously disrupted.

The encounter with undercover cops attempting to narc out the camp was included because the topic of this thread is "2012 Experiences with Police". Those were experiences with police that occurred in 2012.

Yeah, but you purposely didn't want to follow up with any details. A potential narc dressed up and going to your camp. Big deal. How did you react? Did anything go wrong? What proved your suspicions?

As previously stated, this is another story, for another time. I don't want to draw any more unwanted attention to myself, or my camp. If you're really curious to know more, send me a private message. But it was a pretty typical encounter.

black, female, limp-faking, cane-carrying, undercover cop from NYC
walks into a bar sound like the beginning of a joke?

Finally, to all the Law Enforcement officers and representatives reading & compiling Christmas lists, are you completely comfortable with the duplicitous tactics and occasionally heavy handed prosecution out there? Do you give a damn that the actions of you or your compatriots have the potential to wreck good peoples lives, over petty, victimless offenses? Or are they just handing out bonuses for every collar you bring in, and that's that? Finally, if a disabled person approached you on playa and requested assistance, which you could easily render, would you help them, or tell them to go to medical?

I'd like to directly bridge this gap between our communities.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

I have had multiple discussions with cops on the playa. The one that sticks in my head was from two years ago, with a plain clothes male. He came to our camp because he saw someone "shooting-up" and inquired if we had some to share. Told him we did, and he was welcome to share, and we had plenty more in the ice chest if he needed more. That got his undivided attention instantly, and we saw a pulse of Cop Lust. When he saw it was insulin we were "shooting" he laughed and just hung out a bit in the shade. I asked him how many people really used illegal drugs out in the open like that. His response was memorable: Lots. The vast majority of those arrested on drug charges were tagged in public doing stupid things. He basically followed this up with the observation that most of the people arrested were otherwise nice, normal folks in Defaultia, but they let their guard down at BM, got a bit drunk, and got stupid. He said finding "dealers" or any large quantities was very rare.

And then like a good cop he wanted to see inside the ice chest. I was only too happy to obligue because by then I had the serious munchies and my PB&J was calling.

"To sum up my compassion level, I think we should feed the unwanted animals to the homeless. Or visa versa. Too much attention and money is spent on both."(A Beautiful Mind)

This """Experiences/w police""" is getting to be an old scab that poster like to pick at..

It has been posted on this board many times.. The police will not even see YOU if you don't pick the buggers out of there nose... Leave them alone.. Keep all the flags they are looking for put away.. Just be Joe Blow out in the open.. Do "YOUR"shit in your tent..Don't talk about it.. And don't drive with your " look at me " hanging out..