ding ding ding! sorry, messed up the link... but yea, how about them? any "good"?

and while i'm busy freaking people out with sketchy cams, how about rock empire? markc implies that they are 1 up from gear4rocks...

Someone tested the Ukrainian Gear4rocks cams and they all tested better than advertised. HOWEVER, with so many better choices (think Metolius, Wired Bliss, BD Camalots) why get them? They do make the only plastic nuts, which work fairly well and are relatively lightweight.

Rock Empire cams, same thing, EXCEPT, in the larger sizes, say 4" and up, they are significantly lighter (and cheaper too) than Camalots. If you are considering a backcountry wide ascent, they're your Huckleberry.

and while i'm busy freaking people out with sketchy cams, how about rock empire? markc implies that they are 1 up from gear4rocks...

They are a good budget cam, about on a level with the previous generation product from any "up-market" company. Good enough for a US company to re-brand and sell as their own product (and a few Euro companies as well).

i guess what i'm mainly asking is: would you climb with these? now that i've looked i see that other brands(like metolius) sell cams for just a little extra, but i'd trust them more.

on another note, for a 35ft trad route(college rock, MA), i know its short, how many cams should i get for a rack? ive taken a class on placing pro, etc. but i dont know how much pro i need and what range i should get for the cracks and pockets available. is there a general range for a typical granite face? i like the below route, and the crack is up to maybe 10 cm at points, down to nothing at others.

Yes, I have climbed on Rock Empire cams. My partner Ujahn has a set. That I own multiple sets of Metolius four cams, 3 cams units, 2 sets of 4th gen Camalots, a set of both Wired Bliss 4 cam units and 3 cam units, 39 Aliens, 2 sets of Totems cams, a set and a half of Metolius Supercams, a set of Trango Max cams, Valley Giants, sets of Wild Country Zeros, Flexible Friends, offset Friends, original friends and misc. other HB Yates, and even Clog cams should tell you something. When Ujaan brings his rack we climb on Rock Empires on occasion. He's embarrassed about this, but no matter, they do the job. Don't be falling on your gear till you are damned sure it will hold.

I would climb with them on a wall

I would climb with them in the hall

I would try them on the rack and I would carry them on my back

I would climb with the Rock Empire cams said Sam I am.

As far as leading the route you showed a photo of, are you fucking nuts? Seriously. Start leading long easier routes that take and place good gear. The short routes are more dangerous than the long ones. If you pop off, and there is a single piece or 2 between you and eternity: goodby. I once saw a fella fall and rip 4 good pieces and dirt out. The crying, wailing and nashing of teeth of his loved ones right by the unfortunate climber who had angered in at the base was beyond description. As was the smells of the CPR we gave, and the odor of Wheat Thins on the dead mans breath. And that route looked a hell of a lot better than the photo you just posted of that shit route. If you can toprope it why the hell wouldn't you do so? Looks fun on TR. The dead guy had no such options, for he fell 70' up on teh start of a long multipitch route...one that has good pro. Get some nuts and a mentor. Not joking on any part. Well, the Sam I am was over the top, but serious on everything else.

I own Rock Empire Robots and Micro-Robots. They got me leading on a budget, but I happily upgraded to Black Diamond Camalots after a season or two. As others have said, they don't have the finish of more expensive units. At least with Robots, I found the spacing of the cam lobes to be narrow in the larger sizes. (This isn't the case for all their cams.) That said, they're certified and I didn't have any safety concerns with them.

I've led that route. I know people who have soloed it. Not much difference. It is NOT a good lead especially for a new leader.

Eric has much more experience than I do at College Rock (Eric, you must know nearly every square inch of rock there), but I've led a half a dozen routes there. I'd say that overall, they're not the best for a beginner leader. The gear comes when it comes, not necessarily when you need it.

Better beginner leads in the Boston Metro area (IMO) at Black and White Rocks, and Crow Hill.

on another note, for a 35ft trad route(college rock, MA), i know its short, how many cams should i get for a rack? ive taken a class on placing pro, etc. but i dont know how much pro i need and what range i should get for the cracks and pockets available. is there a general range for a typical granite face? i like the below route, and the crack is up to maybe 10 cm at points, down to nothing at others.

You need approximately the same rack for a 40 foot climb as for an 800 foot climb. Seriously. Only difference is that the longer one might have more of a variety of pitches. But in general, a pitch of climbing requires that you carry all the stuff you might need, plus a little extra.

Isn't that the route Robbovious fell off and perma-fucked up his foot on?

GO

Wasn't that in Purgatory Chasm?

There are routes at College Rock that can be led somewhat reasonably - the route in question might even be one. But I still don't think it is the place for fledgling leaders. Gabe's suggestions of places to start pretty good. Nothing beats the Gunks in that department though.

Isn't that the route Robbovious fell off and perma-fucked up his foot on?

GO

Wasn't that in Purgatory Chasm?

There are routes at College Rock that can be led somewhat reasonably - the route in question might even be one. But I still don't think it is the place for fledgling leaders. Gabe's suggestions of places to start pretty good. Nothing beats the Gunks in that department though.

Re. College Rock - routes that can be led reasonably, yes. Good for complete beginner leaders... eh, maybe not. At least not the ones I did.

Re. Rob - maybe you're right, I'm not 100% sure.

And yes, nothing beats the Gunks for new leaders working through the easy grades. But there are also some reasonable small things around Boston, for folks not quite ready to make that leap.

ok. i'll go find some better climbs at crow hill or something. the problem is that i'm 16 and have just a learners permit so i have to get rides everywhere. CR is a 10 min drive 1 town over, and crow hill is an hour.

honestly, i get your point. i've been working a 5.12 in my schools wall, and i had a belayer who's never done a second before. 1 draw clipped in. i took a fall that i wasn't expecting(slipped off a crimp) and luckily righted myself before hitting the ground 15 feet lower. mat helped...

anyways, that route is easy and i've done it enough that i know every crack, crimp and sloper on it. the picture doesn't show the route well enough though. there's a dihedral to the left with plenty of pro options. then the crack itself when you get there. i'm not saying it would be easy to learn and safely lead there, but it it definitely protectable.

ok. i'll go find some better climbs at crow hill or something. the problem is that i'm 16 and have just a learners permit so i have to get rides everywhere. CR is a 10 min drive 1 town over, and crow hill is an hour.

honestly, i get your point. i've been working a 5.12 in my schools wall, and i had a belayer who's never done a second before. 1 draw clipped in. i took a fall that i wasn't expecting(slipped off a crimp) and luckily righted myself before hitting the ground 15 feet lower. mat helped...

anyways, that route is easy and i've done it enough that i know every crack, crimp and sloper on it. the picture doesn't show the route well enough though. there's a dihedral to the left with plenty of pro options. then the crack itself when you get there. i'm not saying it would be easy to learn and safely lead there, but it it definitely protectable.

It may look protectable, but have you ever placed gear before? Please practice anchor building / gear placement on the ground before jumping on the wall. That's how most folks start trad. You are getting advice from some seasoned climbers who know CR very well. The 5.9 will always be there. I suggest leading it after getting some mileage under your belt.

Talk about paradoxical circular reasoning... Falling in your gear is the only way to verify with absolute certainty that it will hold a fall, thus your statement is impossible. Speaking of which, why are you climbing in the hall?

I've led that route. I know people who have soloed it. Not much difference. It is NOT a good lead especially for a new leader.

I've never been there but thought the same just based on the photo. CLEARLY NOT A GOOD LEAD FOR A NEW LEADER.

maldaly wrote:

Listen to billcoe. He speaks wisdom.

Maldaly, the smartest most savvy guy on the forum just spoke:-)

USnavy wrote:

billcoe_ wrote:

Don't be falling on your gear till you are damned sure it will hold.

Talk about paradoxical circular reasoning... Falling in your gear is the only way to verify with absolute certainty that it will hold a fall, thus your statement is impossible. ...

Not at all Navy. You can learn what a good cam placement is, what will hold and what won't, other ways: 1) Aid climbing will allow this kind of knowledge.

2) Follow any mentor and you will see what a good cam is. The more mileage you get the more you will learn. And as important, spacing and where to stand and rest while placing them.

3) Simply putting in cams in cracks and just yoinking on the placement from the safety of the ground while you wait for your buddies to burn a lap or 2.

As Wonderwoman says, practice is important. You can, of course, shorten that process up by taking classes or dogging a skilled leader and learn what a good cam placement is without killing yourself to learn it. Hey Ben, learn everything you can, grasp every opportunity to learn and every scrap of knowledge you can get. A lot of this info is better gotten from locals in your area, they'll tell you what is working and what isn't and it will increase your safety margin ten times over. I see your point about getting places, you can also toprope the short crack and put placements in while you do so. It will get you a feel for what the difference is and is a great way to start.