Although I live in a Muslim country and have studied some regarding the Arabs, Islam and their histories, I am unaware of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ever having been accused of being a pedophile, or indeed that there is any evidence that he could be considered as one.

Do some reading up on Muhammad's critics. I can't believe you're that ignorant.

I am no defender of Islam. It is a too much like Mormonism. So if you have credible references as to the Prophet's behavior that would enlighten me on the subject, please provide them. They may well be blocked here, but hey, I will give it a shot.

_________________ David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."

I doubt I've been around this board enough to have generated or spread any "MormonDiscussions.com myths," but I'll still note here that, as an answer to the question above, you've assembled a terrible summary of what is in Compton's book. In fact, it's so bad that I'm having a hard time believing that you have any interest in setting anybody straight with "the truth" about it.

Here are some excerpts from the same book that are actually on-point:

Compton, in excerpts from In Sacred Loneliness, p.499-502, wrote:

As in the case of Sara Whitney, Joseph gave [Helen, the Kimball family's] teenage daughter responsibility not only for her own salvation but for that of her whole family. Thus Helen's acceptance of a union that was not intrinsically attractive to her was an act of youthful sacrifice and heroism.***Helen's reminiscence includes a poem that gives valuable insight into her feelings at the time. Unlike Eliza R. Snow, who looked upon the marriage to Joseph Smith as the spiritual zenith of her life, Helen, much younger, saw it as limiting her freedom and isolating her from her friends.***So apparently Helen had expected her marriage to Joseph Smith to be for eternity only, then discovered that it included time also. These lines [of the quoted poem] paint a bleak picture of Helen's mental state in the months after the wedding. A "sicken'd heart" broods; she is a "fetter'd bird with wild and longing heart" who pines for freedom every day. She must have been attracted to boys her own age, as would be normal. She certainly was already paying attention to Horace Whitney [whom she later married, willingly, in 1846]. The marriage to Smith coming so suddenly and blocking these growing feelings must have been devastating to her. These lines are the first evidence of depression in Helen Mar's life.***[Helen's father] Heber left Nauvoo on a mission to the eastern states [less than a month following Helen's marriage to Joseph] in early June 1843. A month later a letter he wrote to Helen shows that he was worried about her mental state as she entered into the role of polygamous wife. He counseled her to accept the marriage obediently and keep it a secret...Possibly Helen was having moments of open rebellion. Certainly she was seriously depressed.***She [Helen] was apparently coming to realize that her secret marriage to Joseph entailed time as well as eternity. A severe depression ensued--she felt that her life's happiness had ended completely--and she "brooded over the sad memories of sweet departed joys and all manner of future woes."

Clearly, Helen's father (whether out of ignorance or conscious treachery -- it's unclear) and Joseph Smith coerced her to marry Joseph under false pretenses (i.e., that it was "for eternity only"). Coercion, by definition, does not enable acts of free will, but assuming that somehow Helen wasn't successfully coerced, which I believe is the "truth" you are trying to enlighten us with, I suppose that we could maybe take from Compton's analysis the idea that Helen "willingly" (at least as willingly as a 14 year-old girl, not yet legally competent to sign a contract, could have been -- i.e., virtually not-at-all, imo) married Joseph "for eternity only", as a distant, or even merely theoretical, union in the afterlife.

As soon as Helen went through with the ceremony, however, she became the victim of a bait-and-switch, as Joseph began insisting that contrary to what she agreed to, she was now his actual earthly polygamous wife, and as such she would be isolated socially from her peer group. It is ridiculous for you, Ray, to imply that Compton's book says Helen willingly agreed to the marriage arrangement that Joseph eventually imposed on her.

The author of this blog post came to a realization, after a lifetime in the LDS Church hearing (and wrongfully trusting) people like you mischaracterizing the known facts in the service of Joseph Smith's legacy, that she had been misled to believe that Joseph Smith's behavior in this regard was virtuous and essentially different somehow from the behavior of Warren Jeffs. This deception, which she seems to attribute to the Church itself, is part of what made it so hard for her to support her husband's changing beliefs (and underwear!), and caused her to write this blog post.

Thanks, I guess, for helping to illustrate part of the author's struggle.

-JV

A bump for a great post. Well done. Thanks.

_________________ David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."

It is ridiculous for you, Ray, to imply that Compton's book says Helen willingly agreed to the marriage arrangement that Joseph eventually imposed on her.

The author of this blog post came to a realization, after a lifetime in the LDS Church hearing (and wrongfully trusting) people like you mischaracterizing the known facts in the service of Joseph Smith's legacy, that she had been misled to believe that Joseph Smith's behavior in this regard was virtuous and essentially different somehow from the behavior of Warren Jeffs.

You're comparing Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs? WOW! Is all I can say.

Have you read Compton's book? You don't need to quote me excerpts, because I have his book right before me now in my hands, chapter 22, page 486, "Polygamy, Melancholy, Possession".

Shall I scan and post it? Would you like to receive it by email? I don't need "excerpts", because I have the whole book right here at my hand.

I think any two competent and intelligent scholars (and human beings) will look at any subject somewhat differently. This is both a maddening thing and an enriching thing. There are so many factors: focus of evidence collecting, focus of research, educational interests. There is also, in Mormon studies, Mormon and non-Mormon bias, and within Mormonism, liberal and conservative bias. An honest scholar and writer does not just give himself up to his or her bias; he or she actually strives to rein it in, and thinks about dialoguing with the “other side.” One of the ways you do that is present evidence in a reliable way, so it convinces not just “your side” but the “other side” too. (By the way I would call myself basically a liberal Mormon whose heroes are people like Leonard Arrington and Lowell Bennion.)

Yet Juggler Vain would have us believe that Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith are "indistinguishable". LOL.

I am no defender of Islam. It is a too much like Mormonism. So if you have credible references as to the Prophet's behavior that would enlighten me on the subject, please provide them. They may well be blocked here, but hey, I will give it a shot.

"The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." -- Bukhari 7.62.88

The widespread prevalence of child marriage in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has been documented by human rights groups. Saudi clerics have justified the marriage of girls as young as 9, with sanction from the judiciary. There are laws defining the minimum age in Saudi Arabia as young as eight years.

The kingdom's top cleric saying that it's OK for girls as young as 10 to wed.

----------

Dr. W,

You DO have GOOGLE, don't you? To post such intentionally ignorant things on a message board is astounding.

- VRDRC

_________________In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago

Although I live in a Muslim country and have studied some regarding the Arabs, Islam and their histories, I am unaware of the Prophet Muhammad (toadyism removed) ever having been accused of being a pedophile, or indeed that there is any evidence that he could be considered as one.

Article 1041 of the Civil Code of the Islamic Republic of Iran states that girls can be engaged before the age of nine, and married at nine: "Marriage before puberty (nine full lunar years for girls) is prohibited. Marriage contracted before reaching puberty with the permission of the guardian is valid provided that the interests of the ward are duly observed."

The Ayatollah Khomeini himself married a ten-year-old girl when he was twenty-eight.

In Islam, Muhammad is the supreme example of conduct (cf. Qur'an 33:21). "The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." -- Bukhari 7.62.88

It's probably best for you to stay focused on Joseph Smith and whether or not he had intercourse with a 14 year-old because the record of Muhammed and the resultant impact it had on women is devastating, and devastatingly documented.

- VRDRC

_________________In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago

I am no defender of Islam. It is a too much like Mormonism. So if you have credible references as to the Prophet's behavior that would enlighten me on the subject, please provide them. They may well be blocked here, but hey, I will give it a shot.

"The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." -- Bukhari 7.62.88

The widespread prevalence of child marriage in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has been documented by human rights groups. Saudi clerics have justified the marriage of girls as young as 9, with sanction from the judiciary. There are laws defining the minimum age in Saudi Arabia as young as eight years.

I do have Google. I am also living in a Muslim country where websites that defame the Prophet or Islam are blocked.

Thanks for your quote, though. It shows that I was wrong and or did not look hard enough.

It's always interesting to me how telling the truth is character defamation. Whether it's Joseph Smith destroying a printing press or a Muslim country blocking the Internet, religious fanatics don't like it when their actions are exposed.

- VRDRC

_________________In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago

So, in what significant way was Warren Jeffs' behavior regarding the taking of multiple wives and having sex with underaged girls different from that of Joseph Smith?

Most people outside the LDS Church who think about this at all will understand that Jeffs was only doing exactly what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught (by example) in this regard.

The difference? Ray has been a member of a church that taught him to regard Joseph Smith as a revered and saintly prophet. He has not been a member of a church that taught him to regard Warren Jeffs as a revered and saintly prophet.

And of course, Warren Jeffs is doing his stuff in the 20th century, where there is the internet, TV, the newspapers. and an efficient police and court system. Had all those things been available in Joseph Smith's time, my bet is that he would have ended up in the same situation as is Jeffs now: mailing out 'revelation' from a jail cell (I had the privilege of receiving one of these myself ...).

_________________Zadok:I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.Maksutov:That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.

The difference? Ray has been a member of a church that taught him to regard Joseph Smith as a revered and saintly prophet. He has not been a member of a church that taught him to regard Warren Jeffs as a revered and saintly prophet.

And of course, Warren Jeffs is doing his stuff in the 20th century, where there is the internet, TV, the newspapers. and an efficient police and court system. Had all those things been available in Joseph Smith's time, my bet is that he would have ended up in the same situation as is Jeffs now: mailing out 'revelation' from a jail cell (I had the privilege of receiving one of these myself ...).

Hi, Chap. I hope things are well with you, and that life is treating you well.

I guess it depends on how you define "will" Ray. Her default state wasn't a desire to marry Smith. He had to pressure her using his religious authority and making theological claims with potentially threatening consequences if she didn't accept. And she still wasn't convinced until she fell ill and interpreted that as punishment from God for having rejected Smith. That strikes me as being coerced into a choice, which is against one's will, but your mileage may vary.

I guess it depends on how you define "will" Ray. Her default state wasn't a desire to marry Smith. He had to pressure her using his religious authority and making theological claims with potentially threatening consequences if she didn't accept. And she still wasn't convinced until she fell ill and interpreted that as punishment from God for having rejected Smith. That strikes me as being coerced into a choice, which is against one's will, but your mileage may vary.

I guess I was coerced into Catholicism, EA. Because that's all I knew, and was taught as a child.

I do have Google. I am also living in a Muslim country where websites that defame the Prophet or Islam are blocked.

If you don't mind me asking, what country is this, and what has been your experience with Muslims?

I am now living in Oman. Omanis have a reputation for being religiously moderate and relatively friendly to westerners, and I have found that to be the case.

Unlike KSA, the authorities here remain very low profile and everyone does pretty much as they please. Unlike KSA, one can actually sleep through morning prayers without being awakened by the mulla in the local mosque at zero dark thirty.

As a westerner, it seems that I am well respected here. I try to fit in.

The key to success here is to have a good local partner. And we have one. On a typical day, my main business interaction here is with two female administrators, one of whom speaks excellent English, drives a new Mercedes, and spends a lot of time in Europe.

The only reason I know that she is drop-dead gorgeous is that she shows me pictures of her touring Europe in western attire. Here she remains covered head to toe in black, even when it is 120 degrees outside, like it is right now.

As in the rest of the Gulf, the place is being built by Indians and Pakistanis, who are managed by nationals (Omanis in this case) with Europeans and Americans as technical advisors.

As in the rest of the Gulf, Mormons are allowed to hold meetings in private homes on Friday's (the Islamic Sabbath). No open display of the Book of Mormon is allowed here.

Hope this answers your question.

Thanks for asking.

_________________ David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."

I am now living in Oman. Omanis have a reputation for being religiously moderate and relatively friendly to westerners, and I have found that to be the case.

Unlike KSA, the authorities here remain very low profile and everyone does pretty much as they please. Unlike KSA one can actually sleep through morning prayers without being awakened by the mulla in the local mosque at zero dark thirty.

As a westerner, it seems that I am well respected here and seem to carry more swing weight than I would in the States or Europe, for example. I try to fit in.

The key to success here is to have a good local partner. And we have one. On a typical day, my main business interaction here is with two female administrators, one of whom speaks excellent English, drives a new Mercedes, and spends a lot of time in Europe.

As in the rest of the Gulf, the place is being built by Indians and Pakistanis, who are managed by nationals (Omanis in this case) with Europeans and Americans as technical advisors.

As in the rest of the Gulf, Mormons are allowed to hold meetings in private homes on Friday's (the Islamic Sabbath). No open display of the Book of Mormon is allowed here.

Hope this answers your question.

Thanks for that report, and answering my questions.

So if you posted negative things about Muhammad, you could, to put it mildly, be in deep ____?

That's the really great thing about America. You can defile, defame and slander anyone who claims to be a prophet, and kick Mormonism to kingdom come.

Do that in Oman in regard to Islam, and you can kiss your ass goodbye.

Just saying.

Now do continue with your slander and character assassination of Joseph Smith, but appreciate that in Oman, if you said the same things about Muhammad, you'd be hanging by the balls.

I am now living in Oman. Omanis have a reputation for being religiously moderate and relatively friendly to westerners, and I have found that to be the case.

Unlike KSA, the authorities here remain very low profile and everyone does pretty much as they please. Unlike KSA one can actually sleep through morning prayers without being awakened by the mulla in the local mosque at zero dark thirty.

As a westerner, it seems that I am well respected here and seem to carry more swing weight than I would in the States or Europe, for example. I try to fit in.

The key to success here is to have a good local partner. And we have one. On a typical day, my main business interaction here is with two female administrators, one of whom speaks excellent English, drives a new Mercedes, and spends a lot of time in Europe.

As in the rest of the Gulf, the place is being built by Indians and Pakistanis, who are managed by nationals (Omanis in this case) with Europeans and Americans as technical advisors.

As in the rest of the Gulf, Mormons are allowed to hold meetings in private homes on Friday's (the Islamic Sabbath). No open display of the Book of Mormon is allowed here.

Hope this answers your question.

Thanks for that report, and answering my questions.

So if you posted negative things about Muhammad, you could, to put it mildly, be in deep s***?

That's the really great thing about America. You can defile, defame and slander anyone who claims to be a prophet, and kick Mormonism to kingdom come.

Do that in Oman in regard to Islam, and you can kiss your ass goodbye.

Just saying.

Now do continue with your slander and character assassination of Joseph Smith, but appreciate that in Oman, if you said the same things about Muhammad, you'd be hanging by the balls.

If I were in Saudi Arabia (KSA) where I used to live, I probably would not be hung, but might be thrown in jail for a few days while they were arranging my deportation. I would then be deported with an invitation never to return.

In Oman, I would probably just be politely reminded that such things are not done here. If I persisted, I would be politely asked to leave.

However, the fact that I do not choose to defame the Prophet Muhammad does not mean that he was not guilty (as was pointed out to me earlier).

Same with Joseph Smith - just because the truth about his behavior is not taught in LDS Sunday School does not mean that he is really innocent when it comes to his many crimes.

When it comes to libel and slander, truth is a defense in almost all situations.(An exception to this rule includes the true statements regarding someone's ill health and there are one or two more which I do not recall just now.)

So technically, since Joseph Smith actually did the things of which he stands accused (see the Steel Head post above), saying so does not constitute libel or slander.

_________________ David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."

Same with Joseph Smith - just because the truth about his behavior is not taught in LDS Sunday School does not mean that he is really innocent when it comes to his many crimes.

When it comes to libel and slander, truth is a defense in almost all situations.(An exception to this rule includes the true statements regarding someone's ill health and there are one or two more which I do not recall just now.)

So technically, since Joseph Smith actually did the things of which he stands accused (see the Steel Head post above), saying so does not constitute libel or slander.

Have your opinion, Dr. W., and peace be upon you, notwithstanding our differences of opinion.

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. 13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. 15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? (Isaiah 29)

The difference? Ray has been a member of a church that taught him to regard Joseph Smith as a revered and saintly prophet. He has not been a member of a church that taught him to regard Warren Jeffs as a revered and saintly prophet.

And of course, Warren Jeffs is doing his stuff in the 20th century, where there is the internet, TV, the newspapers. and an efficient police and court system. Had all those things been available in Joseph Smith's time, my bet is that he would have ended up in the same situation as is Jeffs now: mailing out 'revelation' from a jail cell (I had the privilege of receiving one of these myself ...).

Hi, Chap. I hope things are well with you, and that life is treating you well.

Thanks for asking. It has been a good week - the guards let me have extra toilet paper, and I managed to sneak extra stale bread to feed my pet cockroach. Hope you are doing even better!

_________________Zadok:I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.Maksutov:That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.

Same with Joseph Smith - just because the truth about his behavior is not taught in LDS Sunday School does not mean that he is really innocent when it comes to his many crimes.

When it comes to libel and slander, truth is a defense in almost all situations.(An exception to this rule includes the true statements regarding someone's ill health and there are one or two more which I do not recall just now.)

So technically, since Joseph Smith actually did the things of which he stands accused (see the Steel Head post above), saying so does not constitute libel or slander.

Have your opinion, Dr. W., and peace be upon you, notwithstanding our differences of opinion.

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. 13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. 15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? (Isaiah 29)

Good night, Dr.W.

Good Night, Ray.

Peace be upon you, as well.

_________________ David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."

My breath caught, and I was afraid to look at him, this boy I met and married eight years ago.

My conversation with the Mother of My Children (MOMC) was very similar in nature. After a night of reading exmormon.org exit stories I realized I didn't believe. That was that. All those years of making excuses for all the Mormon nonsense went away, and I was left with disbelief. The next morning I sat her down, and told her I didn't believe in Mormonism any more. The news literally caused her to gasp. She then asked me if I still believed in God. I said no.

We were divorcing shortly thereafter much to my unhappiness; not so much because of losing her, but because it would tear my family apart.

The price to pay for evolving one way or another can be steep, but in the end I think it's best to be honest with your spouse and let the cards play out. Anything else is deception, and an attempt to control. I suppose the only acceptable reason to maintain a faithful façade is if you have a sweet job. :D

- VRDRC

_________________In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago