okeedoe wrote:There is no absolute freedom.No creature in this world is truly free not even that eagle.Everything that lives is dependant or bound to something .At least to their methabolism.Don't you know that?The symbolism of the song is poor and cheap although it can be seductive because of the idea of freedom itself as an inspiring dream that is worth to live.

The song takes me high and gives me the thrills only because of Grace's singing and lovely harmonies.(and because of the fantasy of sweet illusion called the absolute freedom)

And there is no authentic dualism between human kind and the nature.There is only a temporary dialectic alienation that lead us to a total cognition of the nature and renewed, permanent integration of us to it.

You'' lousy little drug dealer''.Do you miss your buddy CD?lol

Trust me, I didn't mean to imply that nature has absolute freedom. I am a strong believer in the laws of physics and biology. What I wrote and meant to imply was that nature does not follow the rules set out by humans.I'd rather not get into a discussion about the definition of freedom. I try to avoid using the term due to delusional connotations it is associated with.And yes, I do miss CD. Know where I can find him?

I think Doormouse has it here. Most of what was going on back then (counter-culture) was about freedom from many of the arbitrary rules.

Strict male hair length, strict female skirt length, war, draft, etc.

And PF has a point with the Janis line, nothing left to lose. It often takes that emotion to break some of those arbitrary rules. We were taught by our radical soc teacher, that we ARE all free already. We just have to know the consequences before we act, and be willing to pay the consequences if need be. And that thinking alone may not be peaceful, but violent. So the revolution of peace. We would break all the rules in a peaceful, non-violent, non-confrontational manner.

Where have all the young men gone? Long time passingWhere have all the young men gone? Long time agoWhere have all the young men gone? Gone for soldiers every oneWhen will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

I think Doormouse has it here. Most of what was going on back then (counter-culture) was about freedom from many of the arbitrary rules.

Strict male hair length, strict female skirt length, war, draft, etc.

And PF has a point with the Janis line, nothing left to lose. It often takes that emotion to break some of those arbitrary rules. We were taught by our radical soc teacher, that we ARE all free already. We just have to know the consequences before we act, and be willing to pay the consequences if need be. And that thinking alone may not be peaceful, but violent. So the revolution of peace. We would break all the rules in a peaceful, non-violent, non-confrontational manner.

yet didn't the "counterculture" ultimately impose its own arbitrary rules and its own brand of stultifying conformity.

I prefer the line "freedom is harmony". That's imagining a freedom that doesn't need to be enforced by rules which would ultimately negate it. It is utopian, I admit it. We may be waiting forever if we expect everybody to behave with empathy.

wouldn't true freedom include freedom from consequences? predicting a consequence may cause someone not to act. how then is that freedom. isn't it slavery to consequence?

I don't recall a single rule in the counter-culture, except that violence wasn't welcome.....

"It's got no signs or dividing lines, or very few rules to guide" - Grateful Dead - New Speedway Boogie.

That's how I recall it!

Another good point about consequences. Mostly things go down without a thought to the consequences. I think what the soc teacher was getting at here, is that the only other choices are to change the consequences...or don't get caught!

Where have all the young men gone? Long time passingWhere have all the young men gone? Long time agoWhere have all the young men gone? Gone for soldiers every oneWhen will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

wouldn't true freedom include freedom from consequences? predicting a consequence may cause someone not to act. how then is that freedom. isn't it slavery to consequence?

I don't recall a single rule in the counter-culture, except that violence wasn't welcome.....

"It's got no signs or dividing lines, or very few rules to guide" - Grateful Dead - New Speedway Boogie.

That's how I recall it!

Another good point about consequences. Mostly things go down without a thought to the consequences. I think what the soc teacher was getting at here, is that the only other choices are to change the consequences...or don't get caught!

yes, altamont, to which the song refers, was certainly the pinnacle of countercultural non violence. and the angels were hired for security at the dead's recommendation.

there amy not have been written rules but the pressure to conform was there all the same

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." — George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

I go with the "freedom is another world for nothing left to lose" idea, it'd be nice to live in a utopian world, but humanity needs a structured society, and I know that probably wasn't the best thing to say here. But in the end I agree with Susan, a utopian type of freedom would be nice, but there's too many bad people out there, so realistically it's impossible. At least I believe that's what you were getting at in your comment.

Well, too many people acting in ignorance and selfishness is what I meant. There's little chance of changing a society that's built on individual self-interest. I know some people once thought LSD could make that change. It didn't, not in the short run. Let's move to an island somewhere...

Maybe words and analysis don't cover freedom. Maybe we are only free when we are united against a designated oppressor, in a non-violent way to distinguish it from War. Maybe we are only free when we are retired and don't have to work for money, or RR's reality. (Buy your Freedom)Maybe we are only free when people on the street befriend you and treat you with respect, rather than ridicule you and cut you down.Maybe we are only free when people on the street shake your hand or hug you instead of punching you in the face or insulting you.Maybe we are only free when no one will incarcerate you into the military against your will, and teach you to kill for the "good things" in life.Maybe we are only free if weed and LSD and thinking outside the box are encouraged, not persecuted.Maybe we know when we are free and when we are not.Maybe we are free when we say we are at war for oil, and not freedom, or liberty.Dear military, please do not go to war so I can be free. I don't believe you. I think you are there for strategic positioning of military bases around the oil.

Where have all the young men gone? Long time passingWhere have all the young men gone? Long time agoWhere have all the young men gone? Gone for soldiers every oneWhen will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

EmbryonicRabbit68 wrote:I go with the "freedom is another world for nothing left to lose" idea, it'd be nice to live in a utopian world, but humanity needs a structured society, and I know that probably wasn't the best thing to say here. But in the end I agree with Susan, a utopian type of freedom would be nice, but there's too many bad people out there, so realistically it's impossible. At least I believe that's what you were getting at in your comment.

I'm with you on this one. I think we've grown so used to having a structured society that without it would be chaotic. I don't think everyone needs a structured society, but there are those that do. And without it, to them, would be a chaotic mess.

Freedom itself is something you feel. It may be temporary, but it is there. And I don't think anyone is truly free. The list can go on an on to what prevents a person from being totally free. I'm not free, even though many times I have felt free. And I think society itself will never feel free. And I also don't think freedom can be brought on by smoking marijuana, drinking, doing heroin, or dropping acid - because even then, if you're doing a drug for freedom or happiness, you're still a slave to something...

With you standing here I could tell the world what it means to loveTo go on from here I can't use words, they don't say enough