Trivia: I also posted a thingie about Art Ethics in Schmooze after I posted the "evil doctors" thread. We might want to get that thing going too._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Terrorism (even pretend terrorism) is a rather poor methodology for getting your point across, isn't it? What is the CAE's point anyway? Their writings are pretty vague and hard to read, at least to me._________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

Disagreement is however perfectly OK. I have recieved some "hatemails" regarding some of my pieces. The Wilhelm Gustloff piece really did piss some off. Howards comment in one of those threads regarding me being into a compassionate take on some of these issues seemingly added some fuel to the fire too. I have no problem accepting that Kurtz can argue for freedom of speech and whatnot. I do however disagree very strongly with him anyway.

Art does not have to be nice and safe. I have never claimed that. However, the CAE is on the wrong track._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

i think they (the cae) do have a message....that large institutions have knowledge that the individual doesn't, and perhaps doesn't understand.

deknow

Well, yes.. kinda.. but it is too vague and I personally see that message as naive and confused._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Terrorism (even pretend terrorism) is a rather poor methodology for getting your point across, isn't it? What is the CAE's point anyway? Their writings are pretty vague and hard to read, at least to me.

Terrorism (even pretend terrorism) is a rather poor methodology for getting your point across, isn't it?

i dunno, it seemed to have largely worked. there have been many "benefit shows" for his legal costs, and lots of support from artists and activists. i agree that one would think that espousing the ideas he (and the rest of the cae) does, he would generate little support....he is mostly supported as far as i can tell...i don't get it either.

Kurtz: I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

I guess our evil doctor simply is a hot thing in the art world right now. I can see several reasons why it simply is extremely important to get him off the hook.
However, the way I see this, we have at least two different angles here.
Is Kurtz to be sent to jail for "something" and was he really guilty? In that respect, this might be a mix of PKD and Kafka. And we do have that "stolen" biological material. I can see the argument of his.. that "everyone is doing this" but why do we have laws? If this is iilegal, what is the court to do? treat him differently because he is into critically acclaimed art?
I will let the court decide on those issues. The thing that makes me edgy is the actual CAE art thingie._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Uh, I forgot.. I do think it is valid to debate certain issues that at the time might be iilegal. Art can do that.
The CAE might have some important message hidden somewhere. Perhaps the main point is having us discuss these issues? Or not.._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Well, while we are on this subject, when I was in high school someone flushed a cherry bomb in the third floor bathroom. When it exploded it split the pipes just above center court in the gym during a varsity basketball game. It made a huge sound and water and excrement fell on the court. There was some panic and a few people received minor injuries.

much like i wish "high profile muslims" would condem suicide bombings and murder, i wish "high profile artists" would condem such art...instead, they throw benefits for them ...it makes me feel distant from the artistic community, and makes me doubt the ability of the artistic community to think at all.

This is the kind of reasoning where racism and discrimination come from. Isolated individuals do something bad, you pick some set (in the mathematical sense of the word) that they are a member from, blame their behaviour on their membership of this set and aply your moral judgement on the whole set._________________Kassen

Terrorism (even pretend terrorism) is a rather poor methodology for getting your point across, isn't it?

Yes, from a moral point of view, no from a pratical one. I think that terrorism has worked very, very well in history.

Considder the attacks on the pentagon and the wtc; at very low expenses (compared to a conventional war) this has achieved tremendoes expenses to the U.S. in the form of many things getting much harder, enormeous costs for "security" measures, actual terror; people are still scared that any target could be a potential further target, even years later, and the reactions of the scared people have aliented much of the rest of the world from the U.S.. I would call that a great success for the terrorists, it´s probably far beyond what they hoped for.

Would you have read the unabomber´s writing if he hadn´t been a terrorist?

Traditionally another very effective use of terrorism is faking it; you destroy something you own and can afford to lose, blame it on whoever you dislike at the moment and watch everybody rally behind your banner, scared of this group that you dislike. Works marvelously, especially if you can trick those people into doing it for you. Favoured by governements the world over.

I think terrorism is highly successfull as a methodology of getting your point accross which is a great shame because that means it´s here to stay. If it were a bad idea people would have stoped using it after a few tries._________________Kassen

This is the kind of reasoning where racism and discrimination come from. Isolated individuals do something bad, you pick some set (in the mathematical sense of the word) that they are a member from, blame their behaviour on their membership of this set and aply your moral judgement on the whole set.

i strongly disagree.

in this particular case, i think i have demonstrated that (outside this isolated discussion) that the artistic community has supported steve kurtz blindly because he "is an artist" (and oppressed by the patriot act) without looking at the facts objectivley (or even at all), and it makes me doubt that the artistic community in general is capable of really discussing political issues honestly based on the fact that there are no individual artists who are willing (or capable) of speaking up and saying "this isn't art...this is terrorism"...instead they throw benefits for the guy and make him a martryr for the "anti patriot act" cause.

in the case of suicide bombers, they publicly claim to represent the intrests of all muslims (or at least those of their own group or sect). if that group or sect does not publicly decry such behavior as _not_ representing their beliefs or desires, then the suicide bomber remains the spokesperson with the tacit approval of the rest of the group. if individuals within that group don't agree with the ideologly that allows for suicide bombing, yet remain silent and a member of that group, then i don't know how someone from outside that group can be expected to know that they don't support such actions. the individual must act as an individual if they do not want to be seen only as part of a group.

racism comes from people being seen only as part of a group (rather than as an individual), and stereotying the behaviour of such groups. i think i'm doing the opposite...i'm calling on individuals to express themselves despite the group. if suicide bombing is in fact supported by all of the individual muslims who are not speaking out, i think we have bigger problems than racisim....i'm assuming otherwise because i can't (and don't) believe that all (or most) muslims believe in such practices.

granted, we can divide people into many kinds of groups (tall and short, male and female, dark and light, straight hair and curly hair, educated and not educated), but i am not arbitrarily placing people into groups here. the people throwing benefits for steve kurtz are self described artists and the people blowing up nightclubs are self described muslims.

if i went on a killing spree tomorow (perhaps at the big briar manufacturing plant disgruntled because the voyager is not a minimoog), and when being dragged off to jail i scream at the camera "i did it for electro-music.com" then i imagine howard would be getting some phone calls from the media once they figured out what i was talking about. i've now commited an unspeakable act in the name of the "electro-music" group. is the group going to say "dean was one of our own, so we support him and his murders" or "although dean saw himself as part of this community, we in no way condone his behaviour. we also lament the fact that the voyager is not a minimoog, but by no means does that justify the cold blooded murder (with an arp axxe?) of all those hundreds of employees at big briar."

you see kassan, you would be correct if i did "blame" the behaviour of suicide bombers on their membership to muslim society and then "applied my moral judgement to the whole set"...but this is exactly what i'm not doing. i'm assuming that suicide bombers do not represent the beliefs of most muslims. what i am doing is criticizing those muslims who do not believe that suicide bombing is "holy" for not speaking out.

Terrorism (even pretend terrorism) is a rather poor methodology for getting your point across, isn't it?

Yes, from a moral point of view, no from a pratical one. I think that terrorism has worked very, very well in history.

We can argue about that. The Palestinian use of terror has not done much for their cause. The IRA has accomplished nothing. How about those Basque separatists? Gandhi and Martin Luther King didn't use terror and were very successful.

As for the Unibomber. He accomplished nothing as well. I tried to read his thesis, but is was poorly written and confused. There was no real message, just the ravings of a sick individual.

Would someone please tell me what the message of the Sept 11 terrorists was? I never got it. Did they want to get the USA out of Arab territory?_________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

If that was the case I guess I wouldn´t rate that one among the most successful ventures in recent history._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Would someone please tell me what the message of the Sept 11 terrorists was? I never got it. Did they want to get the USA out of Arab territory?

Just a guess: Al Qaeda aren't all that bothered with the west in general, orth US in particular, other than to goad them into attacking Muslim countries, thereby halting the perceived "westernization" the Islamic world by being able to say "look at the evil infidels, you must become true fundamentalistts to stop our world becoming like the evil West!"
And Bush, dumb fuck that he is, took the bait.
Mind you, he probably has a similar agenda: "If I can get a majority of Americans to believe there's a genuine threat to our nation, we can take the first step towards the totalitarian Christian regime we REALLY want!" _________________Where there are too many policemen, there is no liberty. Where there are too many soldiers, there is no peace. Where there are too many lawyers, there is no justice.
Lin Yutang (1895-1976)

in this particular case, i think i have demonstrated that (outside this isolated discussion) that the artistic community has supported steve kurtz blindly.....

Realy? Where have you shown this? What is "the artistic community"? Nearly everybody I know or deal with is a artist of some sort and I have yet to hear anybody speak out in support of him. I´d like them to form a community though.

Quote:

because he "is an artist" (and oppressed by the patriot act) without looking at the facts objectivley (or even at all), and it makes me doubt that the artistic community in general is capable of really discussing political issues honestly based on the fact that there are no individual artists who are willing (or capable) of speaking up and saying "this isn't art...this is terrorism"...instead they throw benefits for the guy and make him a martryr for the "anti patriot act" cause.

I don´t think it´s terrorism at all, nearly everything gets called "terrorism" these days. Last time I read the word in a newspaper somebody was calling people who smoked in public "terrorists". Artists, by their nature, are probably inclined to give the world some more carefull thought then the average person and probably will be less inclined to go along with the current trend of calling everything out of the ordinary "terrorism".

I didn´t hear the "artistic community" speak out against it (but then again, I never heard that community speak at all and doubt it exists), as far as I know neither did the "car salesmen community" or the katholic church.

In my experience individual artists are quite capable of discussing politics honestly, there are probably many artists who are against this since they tend to be a extremely diverse bunch. Wether or not they contacted you to inform you of their opinion is a different matter. As it stands you heard some people you identified as "the artistic community" speak out against this use of the patriot act and based on this conclude that all artists are incapable of honest discussion and un willing or unable to speak up. I think it´s far more likely that they are debating their diverse views with their friends instead of sending a email to deknow to inform him of their point of view.

I could be considderd a artist, for example, and haven´t yet informed you of my opinion on the Japanese invasion of China during the second world war. This does not mean I´m incapable or unwilling to do so; merely that the topic hasn´t yet turned up in conversation with you. Had it then I´d have informed you that I think this act was horrible and that Japanese childeren should be tought about it in the hope that history doesn´t repeat itself. There are many other horrible things in the world and I´m opposed to most of those. giving you a complete list would take a lot of time and I don´t considder that worth the efford, prefering to spend more time on my "art" instead.

Quote:

in the case of suicide bombers, they publicly claim to represent the intrests of all muslims (or at least those of their own group or sect).

Erm, there are many suicide bombers who aren´t muslims. Well, were.... Can I ask for a source for this claim?

Quote:

if that group or sect does not publicly decry such behavior as _not_ representing their beliefs or desires, then the suicide bomber remains the spokesperson with the tacit approval of the rest of the group.

Hmmm, I spoke to muslims who strongly condemned any form of violence. Do you actually talk to muslims at all? Do you have any muslim friends?

Quote:

if individuals within that group don't agree with the ideologly that allows for suicide bombing, yet remain silent and a member of that group, then i don't know how someone from outside that group can be expected to know that they don't support such actions. the individual must act as an individual if they do not want to be seen only as part of a group.

So, by your reasoning I can hold you personally responcible for the use of agent orange in Vietnam? The tortures in Iraq? (I´ll just go ahead and asume you live in the U.S).

I don´t personally feel I should be judged on my country´s active part in the slave trade, not for the atrocities in Indonesia; it´s quite possible that many people see me as a member of the group "the Dutch", but I myself don´t.

Quote:

racism comes from people being seen only as part of a group (rather than as an individual), and stereotying the behaviour of such groups. i think i'm doing the opposite...i'm calling on individuals to express themselves despite the group.

Yes, but you *are* looking at them as a part of that group and *are* placing demands on them based on that membership. If you would adress individual Muslims and ask them for their opinion then you could base your judgement on them as a person on their reply. You can´t just "call on" all muslims on a board dedicated to electronic music and expect some responce of the leaders of the muslim world.

Quote:

if suicide bombing is in fact supported by all of the individual muslims who are not speaking out, i think we have bigger problems than racisim....i'm assuming otherwise because i can't (and don't) believe that all (or most) muslims believe in such practices.

So what are you saying here?

Quote:

granted, we can divide people into many kinds of groups (tall and short, male and female, dark and light, straight hair and curly hair, educated and not educated), but i am not arbitrarily placing people into groups here. the people throwing benefits for steve kurtz are self described artists and the people blowing up nightclubs are self described muslims.

No. There are some people supporting Kurtz and some of those are artists. There are some people that blow up nightclubs and some of those are Muslims. You are implying here that only muslims blow up nightclubs which reënforces my asumption that you are a racist (or at least religiously intolerant).

Quote:

is the group going to say "dean was one of our own, so we support him and his murders" or "although dean saw himself as part of this community, we in no way condone his behaviour. we also lament the fact that the voyager is not a minimoog, but by no means does that justify the cold blooded murder (with an arp axxe?) of all those hundreds of employees at big briar."

No, I for one would say something along the lines of "I already had the strong impression he was having trouble with dealing with his arbitrary dislike of groups of people.", the Mosc would say something else, probably more along the lines of your example and that would be seen as the statement of the group by outsiders. Amongst eachother we may well have very different opinions along the lines of "what a waste of a good axxe" and some will even prefer the Voyager. The news will only see Mosc´s statement and people would wrongly asume I felt axactly the same.

Quote:

you see kassan, you would be correct if i did "blame" the behaviour of suicide bombers on their membership to muslim society and then "applied my moral judgement to the whole set"...but this is exactly what i'm not doing. i'm assuming that suicide bombers do not represent the beliefs of most muslims. what i am doing is criticizing those muslims who do not believe that suicide bombing is "holy" for not speaking out.

Well, I don´t believe you. Based on what you wrote I think you secretly asume many if not most Muslims aprove of suicide bombings, I´m basing this on your remarks like "if all muslims..." and the implication that all people who blow up nightclubs are muslims. I think you are trying to hide your politically incorrect opinion behind the unreasonable demand that everybody should report his feelings on everything to you personally. they shouldn´t have to. We do not need to speak out against lone fanatics breaking laws, generally people agree with the law, otherwise it wouldn´t be there (excpetions excluded).

As a side note, I´m curious, are you a christian?_________________Kassen

We can argue about that. The Palestinian use of terror has not done much for their cause.

Well, no, but neither has the Israelian. That situation is kept in a stalemate by outside influences for heaven knows what reason.

Quote:

The IRA has accomplished nothing. How about those Basque separatists?

I think it gave the Irish a marginally better negotiation position (though once again I don´t agree with the means). I´m not familiar enough with the Balkan situaltion to comment.

Quote:

Gandhi and Martin Luther King didn't use terror and were very successful.

True, but that doesn´t refute my point. I might as well mention that Rubert Hertzehands who lived in a very small germanic village around 1640 didn´t use terrorism and that that was responcible for history never recording him, nor he accomplishing anything.

Quote:

As for the Unibomber. He accomplished nothing as well. I tried to read his thesis, but is was poorly written and confused. There was no real message, just the ravings of a sick individual.

I disagree on the "poorly written" part, I´d have to look into it but I doubt there was a better written text in the newspaper it was published in (I can´t make out the point eiter, but the language is quite sollid). This is irrelevant, however, the fact is that you read it and that you never would´ve read it hadn´t he engaged in terrorism. Had it be better written, in your opinion, then it could conceivably have convinced you or made you think, but only had he gotten it under your eyes.

Quote:

Would someone please tell me what the message of the Sept 11 terrorists was? I never got it. Did they want to get the USA out of Arab territory?

I don´t know, frankly I´m not even sure it had anything to do with the Arab world. Osama later implied those attacks were related to his organisation but I don´t think I can take his word for everything he says. The Bush administration claimed to have found a intact pasport after all that fire underneath all the rubble, then confirmed it belonged to one of the hyjackers. I´m not realy inclined to take their word at face value either. It could well have been a act out of religious conviction or perhaps a political one or both. To me the message would apear to be that the U.S. sin´t as invulnerable as it used to believe it was but that´s pure speculation. Frankly I´d distrust the word of anybody who would be in a position to know on this subject._________________Kassen

Yes, from a moral point of view, no from a practical one. I think that terrorism has worked very, very well in history.

I am blank. When and where? You aren´t thinking of guerilla warfare?

The two overlap and guerillia warfare has indeed been very successfull too, on average probably more so then terrorism which backfires every now and then. I´m speaking of "terrorism" in it´s litteral meaning, the use of violence-induced fear in order to achieve political goals, not the current meaning which seems to be something inbetween "violence by muslims" and "strange things done by people I don´t know" and is closer akin to "witchcraft" or "communism" then to anything else.

Amusingly, I´m not the only one who got anoyed that we now lacked a neutral word for the use of this fear of violence; we can now use "shock and awe" against the "terrorists". If the whole thing weren´t so sad and the cause of death and mutilation to so many people I´d find the notion of trying to shock the terrorists tremendously funny. There´s a certain feel of pre-CCA pulp comics about it.

I wish I had thought of the word "phobocratic" myself._________________Kassen

You are implying here that only muslims blow up nightclubs which reënforces my asumption that you are a racist (or at least religiously intolerant).

Calling people racists is certainly not what we want here. I know Deknow and he isn't a racist. Please take my word on that Kassen.

Kassen and Deknow, you are both very clever and you both enjoy a good argument. I often get outreasoned when I talk to either of you. You are both my friends, so please let's not let these discussions get hot - let's keep on a cool and friendly level.

Back to the subject. Where were we?

I wonder, does the CAE consider the acts of September 11th to be art? I mean, if one thinks putting mutant flies and bacteria out and about to get people upset is art, then wouldn't September 11 be a masterpiece?

I don't think it was art - I was just trying to make a point, or at least come up with an outrageous thought. _________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot vote in polls in this forumYou cannot attach files in this forumYou can download files in this forum

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.