Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Why is everyone so mad about Ebron?

rao wrote:

Mayhew doesn't draft to fill need. How many times does the poor guy and the rest of the FO have to say that before people listen. A guy filling a need only adds to his value it isn't a large factor. Drafting Oline depth in the first round is just irresponsible when your not already a top team. The DBs available were not a value pick at 10 and other than Pryor none of them are even likely to play any significant time in their first year on the Lions. No LBs fit the spot either Mosley is an inside guy and Shazier isn't a top 10 LB and would have to play WSLB in a 4-3.

There was no trades available, they had the 9 picks to gauge interest in a trade down and all you have to do is watch Tenn on the next pick wait to the very last second to make their pick to see no one was trading up.

How do YOU know there were no trades available? Were you in the war room? There were trades being made ahead of and behind the Lions. Teams drafting behind the Lions were said to be interested in Eric Ebron. You are gonna sit there and say with conviction no trades were available? I say BS, and I mean BIG time BS. The Lions could have used at least 6 more minutes to make that pick. The Vikings selection of Anthony Barr was barely even being discussed when the Lions pick was in. Trading down WAS an option. Maybe it wasn't an option he decided to pursue, but it WAS an option. Maybe Mayhew was just asking too much in return, particularly after Cleveland fleeced Buffalo like they did.

And saying no trades were available because of Tennessee taking that much time is pretty myopic. It is entirely possible that Tennessee had a debate going on int their war room over which players to take, or whether to accept a trade that was being offered. Most every GM I've ever heard has said that they are always getting offers for whatever pick they have. It is just a matter of whether the offer is acceptable or not.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

Mayhew doesn't draft to fill need. How many times does the poor guy and the rest of the FO have to say that before people listen. A guy filling a need only adds to his value it isn't a large factor. Drafting Oline depth in the first round is just irresponsible when your not already a top team. The DBs available were not a value pick at 10 and other than Pryor none of them are even likely to play any significant time in their first year on the Lions. No LBs fit the spot either Mosley is an inside guy and Shazier isn't a top 10 LB and would have to play WSLB in a 4-3.

There was no trades available, they had the 9 picks to gauge interest in a trade down and all you have to do is watch Tenn on the next pick wait to the very last second to make their pick to see no one was trading up.

How do YOU know there were no trades available? Were you in the war room? There were trades being made ahead of and behind the Lions. Teams drafting behind the Lions were said to be interested in Eric Ebron. You are gonna sit there and say with conviction no trades were available? I say BS, and I mean BIG time BS. The Lions could have used at least 6 more minutes to make that pick. The Vikings selection of Anthony Barr was barely even being discussed when the Lions pick was in. Trading down WAS an option. Maybe it wasn't an option he decided to pursue, but it WAS an option. Maybe Mayhew was just asking too much in return, particularly after Cleveland fleeced Buffalo like they did.

And saying no trades were available because of Tennessee taking that much time is pretty myopic. It is entirely possible that Tennessee had a debate going on int their war room over which players to take, or whether to accept a trade that was being offered. Most every GM I've ever heard has said that they are always getting offers for whatever pick they have. It is just a matter of whether the offer is acceptable or not.

All I'm saying is that there was no trades worth pursuing. If there had been a team would have traded up before the Saints at 20. 9 selections came off the board before a trade happened after the Lions pick, if there was actually realistic options for a trade down the picks must have just fell perfect because no one took the trade option.

May 10th, 2014, 8:48 pm

liontrax

#1 Overall Pick

Joined: March 21st, 2005, 2:11 pmPosts: 1536Location: Wolverine, Mi.

Re: Why is everyone so mad about Ebron?

I think Mayhew took Ebron in a attempt to save face for not getting Watkins. Notice the quick selection. Then went on to declare him the second best receiver overall in the draft. It's his own fault for being so public about their interest in Watkins in the first place, then when they can't acquire the draft position needed, the fan base is bummed. They never should have started the rumors. Even though the price to move up was too high, you shouldn't talk the talk if you can't walk the walk.

May 10th, 2014, 9:07 pm

Jafo

3rd Round Selection

Joined: October 24th, 2005, 6:23 amPosts: 1111

Re: Why is everyone so mad about Ebron?

rao wrote:

Mayhew doesn't draft to fill need. How many times does the poor guy and the rest of the FO have to say that before people listen. A guy filling a need only adds to his value it isn't a large factor.

That much is obvious. Look at the secondary, the linebacking corps, the picks used to double up on a DT with Fairley, on Best and Leshoure, and Young and Broyles. Yup, that BPA approach sure is paying off.

rao wrote:

Drafting Oline depth in the first round is just irresponsible when your not already a top team.

Who said anything about drafting a backup lineman? But apparently it is alright to draft depth at other positions in the first round? Have you ever considered that one of the reasons we don't have a top team is because of our offensive line? Every single play begins at the line of scrimmage. The team that controls the line of scrimmage almost always wins the game. We have tight ends on the roster, we just spent a considerable amount of money on a FA in Tate and Mayhew drafts a tweener with the first pick. This isn't irresponsible?!

rao wrote:

The DBs available were not a value pick at 10 and other than Pryor none of them are even likely to play any significant time in their first year on the Lions. No LBs fit the spot either Mosley is an inside guy and Shazier isn't a top 10 LB and would have to play WSLB in a 4-3.

There was no trades available, they had the 9 picks to gauge interest in a trade down and all you have to do is watch Tenn on the next pick wait to the very last second to make their pick to see no one was trading up.

The DB's available were not a value pick to whom? Mayhew admits he has a hard time drafting DB's. Mayhew is also pie in the sky over so called impact players. If one is available he goes all drooly, "Oohhh, shiny!"

As for trades, there is almost always a market for trades; it is establishing the compensation for the trade that is the sticking point. I have no doubt there were offers, but none of them were good enough in Mayhew's mind to outweigh drafting an 'impact' player. Just like Fairley was just too good to pass up. Unfortunately, too often draft day estimates of a player's impact are overly generous.

We can argue about this back and forth until our fingers fall off, but it comes down to the fact that Mayhew's idea of drafting the BPA is to go for the so called impact players in the first two rounds and fill the rest of the holes with mid round picks and free agents. It is a crappy plan.

Mayhew doesn't draft to fill need. How many times does the poor guy and the rest of the FO have to say that before people listen. A guy filling a need only adds to his value it isn't a large factor.

That much is obvious. Look at the secondary, the linebacking corps, the picks used to double up on a DT with Fairley, on Best and Leshoure, and Young and Broyles. Yup, that BPA approach sure is paying off.

rao wrote:

Drafting Oline depth in the first round is just irresponsible when your not already a top team.

Who said anything about drafting a backup lineman? But apparently it is alright to draft depth at other positions in the first round? Have you ever considered that one of the reasons we don't have a top team is because of our offensive line? Every single play begins at the line of scrimmage. The team that controls the line of scrimmage almost always wins the game. We have tight ends on the roster, we just spent a considerable amount of money on a FA in Tate and Mayhew drafts a tweener with the first pick. This isn't irresponsible?!

rao wrote:

The DBs available were not a value pick at 10 and other than Pryor none of them are even likely to play any significant time in their first year on the Lions. No LBs fit the spot either Mosley is an inside guy and Shazier isn't a top 10 LB and would have to play WSLB in a 4-3.

There was no trades available, they had the 9 picks to gauge interest in a trade down and all you have to do is watch Tenn on the next pick wait to the very last second to make their pick to see no one was trading up.

The DB's available were not a value pick to whom? Mayhew admits he has a hard time drafting DB's. Mayhew is also pie in the sky over so called impact players. If one is available he goes all drooly, "Oohhh, shiny!"

As for trades, there is almost always a market for trades; it is establishing the compensation for the trade that is the sticking point. I have no doubt there were offers, but none of them were good enough in Mayhew's mind to outweigh drafting an 'impact' player. Just like Fairley was just too good to pass up. Unfortunately, too often draft day estimates of a player's impact are overly generous.

We can argue about this back and forth until our fingers fall off, but it comes down to the fact that Mayhew's idea of drafting the BPA is to go for the so called impact players in the first two rounds and fill the rest of the holes with mid round picks and free agents. It is a crappy plan.

Considering the turnover on the Offensive line ( Backus retiring, Cherilous leaving), I think that the fact we had 2 rookies come in to start( one a UDFA), Reiff do a decent job taking over, and have many pundits rank the line in the top 10-15 means that mayhap somebody did something right here.

_________________I was at this casino minding my own business, and this guy came up to me and said, "You're gonna have to move, you're blocking a fire exit." As though if there was a fire, I wasn't gonna run. If you're flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit

May 10th, 2014, 11:43 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Why is everyone so mad about Ebron?

There was no need to draft an offensive lineman in the first round. Our offensive line did a very, very good job last season. We finally got some semblance of a rushing game. Some of that credit goes to the line, some to the runners. The holes were there. I admit, I may have been happier if the Lions drafted Zack Martin, since he could have stepped in immediately at LG, and Rob Sims could have been released or traded. Cold hearted? It's a business. Players don't give back their money if they under-perform. Sims has health concerns, is in the last year of his deal, and from what I've heard is struggling to get back to being 100% healthy. It's why the Swanson pick made sense.

Ebron could turn out to be great, but I just don't see it. He stood out in games for either the right reasons or wrong reasons. Passes he dropped were uncontested and thrown right where they needed to be. If people on this board are going to complain endlessly about the Pettigrew drops, Ebron isn't going to make them any happier if he continues with his drops.

If there was no trade down options of value (I don't support trading down and not getting proper value for the pick, even if I REALLY want them to trade down), then Ebron was a decent, but not good, value selection. But since Odell Beckham went two picks later, and the Lions could have used a WR more so than a TE, that would have been the pick that made more sense.

As I said in an earlier post, I just don't see Ebron taking heat off of Calvin. I think teams will be able to single cover him with a safety or LB in the NFL. Teams will still be able to double cover CJ.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

There was no need to draft an offensive lineman in the first round. Our offensive line did a very, very good job last season. We finally got some semblance of a rushing game. Some of that credit goes to the line, some to the runners. The holes were there. I admit, I may have been happier if the Lions drafted Zack Martin, since he could have stepped in immediately at LG, and Rob Sims could have been released or traded. Cold hearted? It's a business. Players don't give back their money if they under-perform. Sims has health concerns, is in the last year of his deal, and from what I've heard is struggling to get back to being 100% healthy. It's why the Swanson pick made sense.

Ebron could turn out to be great, but I just don't see it. He stood out in games for either the right reasons or wrong reasons. Passes he dropped were uncontested and thrown right where they needed to be. If people on this board are going to complain endlessly about the Pettigrew drops, Ebron isn't going to make them any happier if he continues with his drops.

If there was no trade down options of value (I don't support trading down and not getting proper value for the pick, even if I REALLY want them to trade down), then Ebron was a decent, but not good, value selection. But since Odell Beckham went two picks later, and the Lions could have used a WR more so than a TE, that would have been the pick that made more sense.

As I said in an earlier post, I just don't see Ebron taking heat off of Calvin. I think teams will be able to single cover him with a safety or LB in the NFL. Teams will still be able to double cover CJ.

I agree with you for the most part. I was open to the Martin pick and the OBJ pick, but I feel like both would have been reaches. In my eyes the Giants reached for OBJ, I see it as they drafted Golden Tate at 12 and as much as I like Tate I don't think he is top half of the 1st round talent. Ebron is a special athlete even with the questions on his hands which I think are over blown given he only had 4 drops last season and the fact he still had great production with shaky QB play. I don't think teams will be able to cover him with a LB and if they put a safety on him it may not free up CJ, but it will leave Tate to thrive. My only issue with the Ebron pick is that it basically leaves no room for CJ to miss any time unless this team some how can become a good running team or they can get Broyles to play up to his flashes and TJ Jones can contribute. If CJ goes down I think they will have to run a lot of 4 WR 1TE sets to be able to continue using the passing game successfully and right now they don't seem to have the players to do that. The success of this pick will fall completely on Stafford, if he continues to make bad decisions and rifle passes behind his receivers the drops are going to be an issue all season again.

May 11th, 2014, 11:15 am

Leo

3rd Round Selection

Joined: January 11th, 2005, 11:35 pmPosts: 1173

Re: Why is everyone so mad about Ebron?

I still don't see how people don't think Ebron filled a major need on this team. The Lions were short handed on offense with the kind of offense they have chosen to run. The Air Coryell offense is about forcing team to cover the entire field you do this by having players who left on checked will gash the defense for huge plays.

Lions haven't had that since 2011 when they made the playoffs when they were able to spread the entire field with Johnson, Pettigrew, Bureleson, Young, Best and Scheffler. Losing Young, Best, Scheffler and basically Burleson allowed defenses to roll coverages and take away Johnson. Every time the Lions were forced to throw the ball to the likes Kris Durham or Kevin Ogletree the defense had already won.

Ebron gives them a player who can now gash defenses over the middle if they choose to roll coverages deep to take away Johnson. This makes so much sense I have to believe Ebron was the target at #10 all along.

_________________The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

May 11th, 2014, 11:56 am

JL

Div 1 - Starter

Joined: December 13th, 2005, 2:09 pmPosts: 536

Re: Why is everyone so mad about Ebron?

I'm not mad the Lions picked Ebron because I think he's a lousy player. I'm on board with people that called him the best TE in the draft. This pick isn't in any way comparable to the Mike Williams pick back in the Moron Years.

I'm mad at the pick because of all the needs the Lions have on the defensive side of the ball, and all of the talent available at the #10 pick.

Let me be clear on that. I like the Ebron kid, I just wish the Lions had gone DT, S, or CB at that point.

In fact, I wrote this in The Jungle:

JL wrote:

I was not happy at all with this pick. There were too many, "fills a need" players left on the board, with similar (or better) grades.

Suh may not be here next season, and the Lions have put Fairley on notice he might not be a Lion next year either. Why not Aaron Donald?

Houston has a gimp foot, Slay was inconsistent last year, and no one seems convinced that Greenwood, et al are going to suddenly turn into decent NFL-caliber DBs. Clinton-Dix, Dennard, Fuller, and Pryor were all available.

A whole lotta LBs were available, not to mention top-rated OTs and guards.

Instead, Mayhew went with a TE, when we've got an experienced (and cheaper) clone already on the roster in Fauria, and a mauler to block coming back off IR, *and* the team re-signed Pettigrew.

So no... didn't like this pick at all.

_________________If God isn't a Lions fan, then why is the sky Honolulu Blue?

May 11th, 2014, 1:56 pm

Leo

3rd Round Selection

Joined: January 11th, 2005, 11:35 pmPosts: 1173

Re: Why is everyone so mad about Ebron?

I don't understand why people wanted the lions to reach for a defensive player in the first round. The best defensive player on the board was Aaron Donald - he was undersized and wasn't as good as the two guys you already had. I sure you guys would be screaming if they added him for depth with the number one pick.

I really feel that Bears at Reached for Kyle Fuller at #14 and Darqueze Dennard went right where he should of at #24. I liked Shazier but not a #10 especially when they got a got guy in 2nd that I like just as much in Van Noy.

All the elite defensive players were already off the board (Clowney, Barr, Mack, Gilbert) and it would have cost why too much to trade up to get one of them. Unless somebody wanted to trade with the Lions to get Taylor Lewan (best player on left the board) the market just wasn't there to trade down. The only team that might have been willing to was the Dolphins who must of believed Zack Martin was going to fall to them.

I still believe with the way the draft broke Ebron was the best pick for the Lions at #10. His unique skill set is similar only to that of Vernon Davis who was #6 overall for 49ers in 2006 draft. Think about it - it's been 9 years since a player with Ebron's skill set has even been available in a draft. As I stated I do believe this fills a major need on the Lions - they needed another offensive weapon to spread the field to make their offense work.

_________________The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

It's a pretty decent bunch of names. Some superb players in there, some decent ones. I don't think there are any real disasters.

In the "crapshoot" that the draft can be, highest ranked TE appears a relatively safe pick.

It's because no tight end is going to go in the first round unless considered an exceptional talent especially in the first half of the round. Guys who can rush the passer, play left tackle or quarterbacks are automatically elevated in the draft process because of their position - that's why there are so many flops in the first round.

Pettigrew was considered a guy who could excel as a receiver and blocker but he didn't run as fast as scout thought he would and some expected him to fall out of the first round because of it. Detroit took him anyway and so far he's been a relative disappointment he has never excelled as blocker or receiver.

_________________The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

May 11th, 2014, 4:24 pm

Growler

Butkus Award Winner

Joined: April 8th, 2010, 3:24 pmPosts: 589

Re: Why is everyone so mad about Ebron?

Leo wrote:

Pettigrew was considered a guy who could excel as a receiver and blocker but he didn't run as fast as scout thought he would and some expected him to fall out of the first round because of it. Detroit took him anyway and so far he's been a relative disappointment he has never excelled as blocker or receiver.

Pettigrew hasn't been as good as we would have liked, but I wouldn't call him a bust.

May 11th, 2014, 5:17 pm

liontrax

#1 Overall Pick

Joined: March 21st, 2005, 2:11 pmPosts: 1536Location: Wolverine, Mi.

Re: Why is everyone so mad about Ebron?

Growler wrote:

Leo wrote:

Pettigrew was considered a guy who could excel as a receiver and blocker but he didn't run as fast as scout thought he would and some expected him to fall out of the first round because of it. Detroit took him anyway and so far he's been a relative disappointment he has never excelled as blocker or receiver.

Pettigrew hasn't been as good as we would have liked, but I wouldn't call him a bust.