It ain't really that complicated. If you scrap it, you can't fix it. When I asked Leftdog several times how you could fix something if it was scrapped, he refused to answer. Jack Layton answered, though. What I'm really wonderin' about now is: does Leftdog think that Jack Layton was hoodwinked by the Liberals? After all, Jack's sayin' the exact same thing I said in my letter to the NDP MPs.

17 comments:

I'm wondering about the anti-registry ads (print and video) that are being shown in NDP ridings. Is the Conservative Party paying for them? If so, why? Isn't the gun-registry abolition bill a private member's bill? If the Conservatives are pay for the advertisements, which office in the Conservative Party is paying for them? Is central office paying or did the Conservative MP's get together to pool money from their ridings?

One thing about the NDP is that they don't buck from a hard issue. I thought Jack was right in continuing the tradition of free votes. It just made his job much harder, but isn't it better to have people come willingly than via the ole whip!

PMB, my ass. Harper's stumpin' vowin' to kill the registry, the CPC buys billboards, MSM ads and a dedicated scraptheregistry.ca website. The CPC whips the vote. It's not really a PMB, at all. That it is a PMB was the big reason Layton gave for making it a free vote. IIRC, he said the NDP would whip the vote if it was a government bill but not if it's a PMB.

Here's another goofy thing. I live in Diane Finley's CPC riding. Yesterday, I got a flyer in the mail from Diane. She comes out and announces she is going to vote to scrap the registry but she also wants constituents to clip and send back a return mail questionnaire that asks the oh-so-leading question: "Do you support getting rid of the wasteful and ineffective long-gun registry?" (Yes or No)

She claims she needs my support and sending this questionnaire back to her will somehow give that support. Huh? She already said she's going to vote to repeal the registry. Even if she got 100,000 responses saying to keep it, the CPC vote is whipped and she's declared how she's going to vote. Why in hell does she want people to send back that questionnaire? Free postage both ways, btw.

For the record, the vote expected next week is not 3rd reading. It's the report stage vote, so even if it's in favour of the bill, that isn't the last vote - there's still 3rd reading vote. And at report stage, the opposition can move amendments to the bill, which the Liberals are doing (to kill the bill). Media coverage of this has been sloppy at best and just plain wrong at times. It's not 3rd reading, it's report stage. I've blogged about this on my blog.

You WERE hoodwinked by the Libs ... here's why ..1)your post was targeted at ONLY the NDP MP's and not (as well) at the 8 Lib MP's who previously voted for scrapping the Registry. It appears that you swallowed Lib talking points that it was ONLY the NDP who posed a risk to the ongoing life of the Registry.

2)You locked onto your question .. 'can the registry be fixed if scrapped' .. huh? -if scrapped it certainly COULD be restructured by a future gov't (either Lib or Coalition).

Your question was based on the premise that if the Registry is ended there would be NO mechanism by a future gov't to again, register and control long arms.

I know that it's a private member's bill in name only. My point is that the Conservative Party is spending money on ads for a private member's bill. Why would it do that if it is a private member's bill?

Okay Leftdog, you've finally responded to JB's question now that your answer has become irrelevant. Why didn't you just say that when you were repeatedly asked the question earlier? Why did you balk from answering the simple question he posed?

So, LD, you're saying that Jack Layton was hoodwinked, too. He only targeted NDP MPs. He argued that the registry should be saved so it can be fixed.

The fact is, you insulted me and called me a liberal dupe, hoodwinked by Liberal rhetoric. I expected an apology but you've reiterated the "hoodwinked" slur twice now. I have lost a great deal of respect for you. You have put party politics and petty name calling above the public good. Jack Layton has my respect. You no longer do.

Jack is savvy enough to know that the registry is such a contentious issue that if it is scrapped, it would be politically impossible to resurrect it. After the $2BN fiasco the Liberals made of the original implementation, no future government would risk recreating that boondoggle.

The fact is that a salvageable, repairable registry exists. Sure, we spent way too much in creating it but that is no reason to dump it. In fact, the investment in what exists is all the more reason to build upon it and repair and improve it.

When you refer it the long gun registry as the "Liberal Registry", you show your true colours. It's far more important to you to kill a Liberal creation than to improve a public safety mechanism that we have already bought and paid for. I am truly thankful that your leader is not as petty as you are.

Skinny Dipper, you and I are not in the least bit of disagreement on whether or not it is a private member's bill. My only issue is that Jack seems to think it is a PMB and therefore refused to whip the vote. He said the NDP does not whip votes on PMB's. Presumably, he would whip the vote on a government bill.

Clearly I have offended you. But your original post was offensive because, as I have repeated, no mention was ever made of the 8 Lib MP's only the 12 New Dems.

Yes I am protective of my political family and wanted only (which I still have never received) an acknowledgment that the 8 Libs needed to be part of the debate. The Libs wanted no one to remember their 8, only the NDP 12. That is where I was alleging 'hoodwinkery' .. what I read as your repetition of the Liberal line only.

By no means do I consider you a Liberal. By no means do I believe that you are susceptible to hoodwinkery EXCEPT that in the matter of the Registry, your desire to save it saw you using what I considered to be the Lib 'talking' points.

You and I have interacted quite a lot over the years in the blogosphere and I regret that you are offended. I suppose if someone called be a Lib or insinuated that I was advancing their interests, I too would be offended.

Again, I find myself a double standard. On Progressive Bloggers, Libs and Greens can slam the New Dems and attack my Party Leader, but if I dare to come to the defense of them, I am labeled as 'hyper-partisan' .. and generally ridiculed.

I guess you don't read my replies to your insults. In my first reply to you yesterday wrt to the Liberals, I said:

"FWIW, I am concerned that some LPC MPs might get the flu on Sept 22. However, the LPC says its a whipped vote and MPs are expected to show up and vote.

I don't see any ties between http://www.emailthem.ca/ and the LPC. It is, of course, possible that the http://www.emailthem.ca/guns/ page was an LPC effort. If the NDP supporters of the registry want to make a similar page urging those 8 LPC MPs you mentioned, I'll be happy to send an appropriate letter to them."

As you'll recall, my original post was about an online tool for sending email to 8 NDP members.

As far as you saying you're standing up for your party, the majority of your party's MPs are on the same page as Jack Layton. That is, they agree that the best way to fix the registry is to save the existing registry that we paid so much for and work to improve. That's the NDP leader's position, the position of most NDP MPs and my position, too.

As far as the notion that it is the NDP who are jeopardizing the registry, that is exactly what Layton is implying when he announced that he has enough NDP MPs on side to save the registry. He made no mention of the Liberals or that they might kill the registry; only that he had won over NDP MPs to save it. By saying NDP MP support is capable of saving the registry, Layton is apparently buying into the same Liberal talking points you accuse me of buying into. So, I'll ask again: Do you think Jack Layton was hoodwinked? After all, he's contending that NDP support he mustered will save the registry and he's contending that we ought to "continue the registry so that it can be fixed." Those are the very things you say I bought into that caused you to decide I'd been hoodwinked.

As far as slamming one's party leaders goes, you don't have to look to hard to find NDP bloggers slamming Elizabeth May. And, FWIW, I wasn't slamming Layton. Layton and I are in complete agreement. We both seem to think that the existing registry is worth saving. We both targeted NDP MPs imploring them not to allow Hoeppner's bill to pass.

In fact, I think I'm far more in agreement with Layton than you are. My only complaint with Layton's handling of this issue is that he's bought into the fiction that this is a private member's bill and therefore should be a free vote.

Slightly off topic, I tried unsuccessfully to find out how many NDP MPs voted for the original registry bill C-68 back in June 1995. I'm guessing it was a majority of NDP MPs. Perhaps you know.

This was a very good post, Mr. JimBobby. But as you are sadly discovering, there are those who are now so far from the mentality of the old raucous principled CCF that one really cannot have any kind of honest, decent debate with them. It is a pity. But that's how things are, and it is a waste of time, sadly, to even try to engage them as they see the world through completely orange-coloured glasses. If you want confirmation of this, try to find one instance of real proper harsh criticism of their own party. Greens, Bloc, Liberals all do it, all the time. The orange team, or TOT, never. Word to the wise: Totter bloggers are a lost cause. Better spend your time outdoors than wasting it on them.

Don't worry the Liberals wont show up just like they did on the budget and this thing will fail. Gun Reg gone. I heard there are 8 Liberal MPs right now eating raw chicken praying to God for the Salmonella.

I must correct myself, this Leftdog has proven most helpful in getting the word out about NDP bigotry in QC. Thanks Leftdog! You're a good man to so honestly spread the word about your party's bigotry. Well-done. That's the kind of integrity I like.

Whooee! Yessirree, fellers. Right here in this comment thread, we got us a good illustration of how smoothly a coalition gummint would work. Toss in a few BlocHeads and it's a real recipe for stagnation.

No... no... wait a minute. MPs have shown they're a little more willing to work together than bloggers. If bloggers was running the gummint, we'd have dang civil war or else it'd look like that Korean parliament where they get into fist fights on the debate floor.