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Who should NOT do the L. reuteri yogurt?

By Dr. Davis | June 19, 2018

Because consumption of the L. reuteri yogurt made with the ATCC PTA 6475 and DSM 17938 strains work by raising levels of oxytocin (in addition to local probiotic benefits on reducing H. pylori and acid reflux, for example, unusual for its upper, not just lower, gastrointestinal benefits), there are people who probably should not consume the yogurt..

Oxytocin is a multi-faceted hormone whose levels decline as we age, much as does growth hormone and other hormones. But, among its many varied effects is the potential for causing uterine contraction. That is why oxytocin is administered to provoke delivery of a term infant: it provokes uterine contraction to deliver the baby along with cervical relaxation. There are experimental non-human and yet unpublished data that suggest that oxytocin may raise estrogen levels in females. But, because of these potential uterine and estrogenic effects, there are people who probably should not eat the yogurt that boosts oxytocin. This includes:

Pregnant mothers

Women younger than age 45

Women with a history of estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer

Women with active endometriosis

Women who are still experiencing menstrual cycles

The last item, menstruating women, is to avoid making menstrual cramps worse, i.e., amplifying the intensity of uterine contractions. (Interestingly, a couple of women taking the yogurt but still experiencing menses actually reported dramatic reduction in menstrual cramps, but that is insufficient evidence.)

That said, oxytocin when administered intranasally or injected, even at many times physiologic doses, has a long track record of safety with virtually no side-effects reported beyond occasional reports of excessive emotionality (e.g., crying too much at movies). So these are just precautions as we all embark on this fascinating adventure of boosting oxytocin levels, given its extraordinary youth-preserving potential that is being played out in experimental evidence and now increasingly in human evidence.

Your LDL is high because you eat fatty animal foods. What do you expect? Lol. I’m guessing it’s not something you should worry about though because Dr. Davis says cholesterol doesn’t matter; it’s the small dense lipoprotein particles that you want to keep low.

3mg of melatonin is high. I’d be careful. It could have some unseen detrimental effect long term.

Also, the best test you can get for heart attacks is the CAC (calcium arterial calcification) score. Cholesterol tests are basically meaningless.

I’ve been trying this yoghurt. It’s unclear to me whether there is a benefit. But I’ve only tried one batch, and I fast 36 hours twice a week, so I’m only averaging maybe 4 days per week of taking it. Fasting seems to provide a massive decrease in hunger over time, so if the yoghurt adds to that, then two things are changing at once.

Based on the numbers, that would be LDL-C, specifically the antique LDL-C(Friedewald), which is just:
TC-HDL-(TG÷5)and is not particularly useful. That VLDL looks like it’s VLDL-C, which is merely an insulting TG÷5.

If you had LDL subfractions actually measured (as via NMR advanced lipoprofile), we might have some insight from the LDL-P values, in particular the LDL Particle Number and the Small LDL.

re: «Cholesterol was doing great last year, now this year it is high again, and climbing.»

What were the numbers last year?

This year, the TG and HDL are both well within program targets (TG under 60, HDL over 60). Take note that your TC is being “punished” in part because your HDL is high, and your fictional LDL is being punished because your TG is low. This says a lot about the use and interpretation of the standard insipid lipid panel.

re: «…was 200 lbs before wheat belly, now I am 156lbs.»

If you were losing weight in the 30 days before the draw for the lipid panel, the numbers are distorted anyway (so don’t run any of the tests discussed here, other than CAC&ApoE, until weight stabilizes).

Any measures for blood sugar? With that nice TG, I’ll bet they’re excellent, but confirmation from a fasting BG and HbA1c is always handy.

re: «71 yrs old male with family history of heart disease.»

Is there any detail why familial risk factors are at large? When you get around to retesting, you might get a handle on your real status and family factors with these tests:
• CAC scan
This is a CT or EBT calcium scan yielding an Agatston score. If it’s zero, stand easy.
• NMR Lipoprofile
This actually measures subfractions.
• Lipoprotein(a), aka Lp(a)
This has a genetic factor. Zero is great. Low isn’t terribly troubling. The Undoctored program has a program adjustment for elevated and high.
• Apolipoprotein E (aka ApoE)
This is strictly genetic, and informs diet to some extend. If you’ve had gene sequencing done (such as 23andMe), ApoE status is trivially determined from just two SNPs in the raw data.

re: «My daily food intake: could the addition of raw potatoes over past few months being spiking my ldl? I eat 2 a day.»

2 whole raw potatoes a day? I wouldn’t expect that to influence a lipid panel (directly), but that’s a lot of prebiotic fiber. Is it your only source of daily prebiotic fiber?

Vitamins: what product? a multi?
Fish oil: How many mg or g of DHA+EPA per day?
Mk7: fine, although not program core
d: How much vitamin D3, and has your 25OH level ever been checked?
mag citrate: how much elemental Mg per day?
Any particular reason for the citrate form? (e.g. stones)
Rodiola: probably fine, although no program guidance for it
kelp 2000mg, TSH: {possible issue/concern, see below}
powdered greens: what benefit expected?

How many micrograms of elemental iodine from that kelp? If outside the range 500-1000µg/day, we need to discuss.

The TSH of 2.68, if µIU/ml, and in typical US Reference Range, means you need to get your thyroid tested. TSH is a pituitary test, and program target is 0.2-1.5µIU/ml. Suggested tests are fT3, fT4, rT3, TPOab and TGab (and are not what you will get from most doctors), and we have targets for them that don’t necessarily match Standard of Care.

KCL is Potassium chloride? What’s the units of measurement and reference range for that test result? Potassium supplementation is not a part of this program, and risk of hyperkalemia from various sources is cautioned about.

re: «…and I have been taking 3mg melatonin past couple weeks at night to improve sleep.»

Bob,
This seemed like an appropriate place to jump in with two questions:

1. Is there a normal wheat belly or undoctored forum? We can communicate through comments on an article, but is there a more natural forum for questions and to post lab results?
2. I just finished the undoctored book. I notice NMR LipoProfile is mentioned as the preferred lipoprotein test. I am planning on getting a baseline lab work done this summer. I have an AnyLabTestNow down the street. They seem to offer a good lipoprotein test the. I assume this tests for the genetic factor you mention above, gives me the basic panel numbers, plus the the percentage of small LDL…I think anyway.

$139 is the cost.

The Lipoprotein Particle Profile (LPP™) Panel consists of the following:

The LPP™ test is the most advanced test available to predict heart disease risk, much more so than standard cholesterol testing. It measures the lipoprotein particles directly giving a more precise evaluation of their size. High numbers of small, dense LDL particles can ultimately cause cardiovascular disease. The National Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP) has identified new lipoprotein risk factors to help identify potential heart attack victims with these “normal” numbers. The new risk factors, Remnant Lipoprotein (RLP), Small Dense LDL, Lipoprotein (a) (Lp(a), and HDL 2b & 3, will not show up in a standard cholesterol test. The first three lipoproteins are high in 25% of the population, while the last, the “good” HDL types, large, buoyant particles that pick up excess cholesterol from the blood, is low in 25% of the population but those who haven’t had the LPP™ test do not know whether they are at risk.

The official forum is on the subscription site (Undoctored Inner Circle, link at page bottom). You can browse a lot of the site, such as almost all forum basenote, and most short responses, without a membership (and I use that feature to host reference material I rely on for blog responses).

re: «We can communicate through comments on an article, but is there a more natural forum for questions and to post lab results?»

On UIC, you can start discussions, and paste-in, link-to or upload lab reports for members to discuss. Dr. Davis may or may not comment on individual labs. A membership to UIC is also membership on the legacy Cureality site, which had a neat tracking feature for the key markers we monitor.

re: «I have an AnyLabTestNow down the street. … Lipoprotein Particle Profile (LPP™)»

That appears to cover the advanced lipoprotein numbers and the Lp(a), for about the same price as LabCorp (via a web-order from LifeExtension, when on sale, which was how I did it recently).

re: «I assume this tests for the genetic factor you mention above…»

That would cover Lp(a), but not ApoE, which requires knowing the status of gene SNPs rs429358 and rs7412. A 23anMe Ancestry test (raw data download thereof), might be the cheapest way to learn that, plus you can upload that huge raw data file to other services that can interpret more freely than the FDA allows 23andMe to do.
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I think this warning should have come a long time ago, but nice to finally see it. That list includes MOST women, and I’m not so sure there is an acceptable reason to exclude non-menstruating women who are not pregnant as well. A higher level of estrogen after menopause does increase risk of breast and other hormone-related cancers, and if you are overweight you will already have higher levels and increased risk.

I complained before about “all L. reuteri all the time” for lack of variety, and now it also skews the program into something very male-centered. Don’t worry guys, we’ve had our whole lives to get used to it.

Hi Kali,
I have been watching this ongoing L. reuteri conversation too and have previously expressed concern over the general lack of clinical and other studies by and for women. Please, DON’T get used to this male centric research. It is un-evolved science and certainly not inclusive.

To post a “warning” to most women out of all women is a dangerous afterthought in the experimentation process

I’ve been attempting to make yogurt using a “Euro Cuisine” yogurt maker from Amazon, and a recipe found in this blog (coconut milk, inulin, L. reuteri), but results have been less than satisfactory. Then yesterday, as I was removing the latest batch from the appliance, I stuck in a thermometer. 125 degrees! I’m assuming that is too hot, and is affecting the quality. I think others are using 105 – 110, correct?

Coconut milk complicates the process (I have yet to make an acceptable batch that is mostly CM). It definitely requires additional simple carbohydrate substrate, such as sugar. Further, most available CMs complicate it even more, due to ingredients other than coconut and water. Is there a specific reason you went with coconut?

Yep. According to a contributor on yet another thread, culture proliferation for this strain falls to nil above 122°F(50°C).

re: «I think others are using 105 – 110, correct?»

The Cosori pot I use runs between 105 and 115 (and is part of why I don’t recommend it), but we get yogurt. An ideal yogurt maker for this strain might need to run at, or be adjustable to less than 105. Few brands even bother to document what temp they run at, or how well that is regulated. Fewer still provide any fine control. many have inadequate maximum run times.

I routinely suggest that before running a batch, people do a short test cycle with plain water and check the temp at frequently irregular intervals.

For my next batch, I’m frankly considering a variation on the method Dr. Davis uses: putting a simple pot in the oven with a low heat source. In our house, the oven has a warming drawer (which is too hot also, but), I’m thinking that there might be just enough stray heat to keep the oven bay above it at ideal yogurt temp.
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Thanks, Bob.
I’m using CM because I’m (self-diagnosed) lactose-intolerant, and the CM brand I am using is pure. Maybe I should try a batch using dairy – lactose in the final product might be low enough to tolerate.
And I’ve tried table sugar instead of inulin for the last several CM batches, with no improvement. Consistency is like non-fermented CM with slightly sour taste. Was suspecting the temperature, and will look for a device with temp control.

If that diagnosis is correct, even a bovine dairy based version of this yogurt shouldn’t be much of a problem, because lactose is one of these L.reut‘s favorite chows. It should all pretty much be converted to something else; mainly SCFAs.

But, bovine dairy presents several possible provocations, and lactose intolerance is only one of them.

A reaction could also be to the casein beta A1 common in North American dairy herds. This can be dodged by using either A2 bovine (now appearing in US markets), or by using goat or sheep milk (which is A2). If you can’t find either, I just made some yogurt based on Mt.Capra powdered [Whole] goat milk, web-ordered.

The insulinotrophic effect of the whey faction is another potential issue. If you get whey separation, drain it off. Freeze it in ice cube trays for later starter use (which will dilute it into the later batches).

The hormone issues in dairy aren’t as easy to dismiss, as these products are from nursing female mammals. Choosing organic can at least eliminate added hormones. Go for pastured at the same time.

re: «Was suspecting the temperature, and will look for a device with temp control.»

I don’t have a slam dunk coconut yogurt recipe. Once I get a process that runs at closer to ideal temp for these strains, I may try it again. We’ve been happy with goat-based, and cow-based from a regional near-organic (but still A1) dairy.
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I checked my euro cuisine at the 24 hour mark and it was 110F then at the 48 hour mark and it was 115F using organic half/half, two table spoons of the previous batch and inulin. In the previous thread I was having trouble with the yogurt being watery somewhat after 48 hours but this batch turned out really good. All seemed to be firm in the jars. I did put the jars in dishwasher prior to this batch whereas prior I had been hand rinsing so maybe I had some contamination that was affecting the quality. This model has a timer that extends up to 15 hours so it could be possible that when I restart it at the 15 hour mark it may be working enough hours to heat all the plastic in the machine and raising the overall temperature slightly. Or, there could be a contribution from the bacteria as population rises. Also from previous thread I had mentioned obtaining additional jars. I picked up a 12 pack of Ball 4 ounce canning jars that fit perfectly in the Cuisine so I can run back to back batches. For a $30 device I think its going to work ok but looking for a model that has a temperature gauge and adjustability will be of interest if I find one.

I’m 60 and female. I’ve made 3 batches of this yogurt. All of a sudden I’m extremely heat intolerant. I’ve always been cold blooded. This week I’ve had 3 episodes of being overheated. And takes me forever to cool down. Ideas?

Regarding trying to goose the growth of the desired strain ……. I think the addition of a small amount of glucose will provide the ATCC PTA 6475 strain a competitive advantage. Sufficiently meticulous, I think it is possible to have a higher proportion of the desired strain in successive batches inoculating with the prior batch. I think a culture temperature of 97 F to be generally optimal for this strain. It has also been suggested to float a little coconut oil on top to keep out oxygen, although this may or may not be an overkill type idea. Done right, the desired strain should be coming out of our ears, so to speak. Ha, ha. I may give it a try myself. Thoughts?
The supplier of the strain has all this nailed to be able to commercially produce it in very large quantities. You can bet that they are not using anything near 115 F.

Wow, I really wish you would have included this warning in the original post! I decided to do the 4 week challenge. I ordered the probiotic and received it in the mail today. I also picked up the organic HWC today (not sold in my town). I started making it in the oven and then got on here to check the instructions only to find out that this could be a major problem for me. I’m too young, currently nursing, and have a family history of breast cancer that puts me in the “high -risk” category. Ugh! What am I supposed to do with all the probiotics and the partially made yogurt in my oven!!?? Very frustrated!

Notice how we are totally ignored while the hombre to hombre conversation doesn’t cease?
Heck of a job Bob.

Dr. Davis, really? You started out with cartoon women in bikini’s albeit getting healthier – your personal quest for the fountain of youth in L. Reuteri overshadows the detrimental effects on women. Why then show women with wrinkles and bags – get the men out front where you seem to prefer them! Show their remediated wrinkles to promote your studies!

Are you reading your own blog replies? Doesn’t seem so. I have been a supporter from the beginning and remain grateful for your good works but you seem to be leaving women behind so obviously. Can you see it?

Culinary Adventurer wrote: «Notice how we are totally ignored while the hombre to hombre conversation doesn’t cease?»

Not being ignored. I only make comments where I can contribute insight, which on this topic is limited to providing information already posted, and sharing my experiences as an inexperienced yogurt maker.

re: «Heck of a job Bob.»

When I see issues that need answers I don’t have, I kick them upstairs. This very article may be a result of my doing so recently.

re: «…but you seem to be leaving women behind so obviously.»

Actually, on the subscription forum (and weekly video meets), the most active yogurt enthusiasts appear to be women.

That there may be populations for which Biogaia Gastrus yogurt might not be ideal, isn’t something that might have been suspected at the outset of this experiment. Lactobacillus reuteri ATCC PTA 6475 was, after all, originally cultured from the breast milk of a mature human female (Peru).
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Not equating. As so far reported, there is apparently no data to support a presumption of harm in humans. This may just be an abundance-of-caution situation, and not all that dissimilar from pharma™, where, for example, they rarely test their patent-pending potions on pregnant females, so disclaim the heck out of that.

That said, based on the sorts of comments I’ve lately been responding to, we do seem to have an influx of people arriving at this yogurt exploration topic from random incep states. I haven’t dug deeply on ER+ BC, but the enablers and triggers are clearly at large in the population. Just adding this yogurt to an otherwise uncorrected diet might not be all benefit.

On the other hand, if a high-glycemic (i.e. standard) diet is both an enabler and full of potential cancer triggers, and using this yogurt might be super helpful in transitioning off that to a lower risk metabolism, there could be net benefit even if estrogen is raised (which, in humans, we apparently don’t actually know yet). Those in these situations will have to make their own calls on all this.

As things are learned, you can expect them to be reported. The base blog article here being an example of that.
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I am a 62 year old woman with very low blood pressure. I have been making this yogurt for about 3 weeks now and eating about 1 cup per day for lunch. I have noticed the following and have finally attributed this to the yogurt: about 30 minutes after consuming the yogurt, I get extremely light-headed and dizzy, and then very tired – so tired I can barely keep my eyes open. Then, I usually have to nap for about an hour, and then I am fine again. Is anyone else experiencing this? I’ve decided to stop making the yogurt. (In the past, I ate Fage yogurt without any of the above symptoms).

I have been wheat-free for about a month and have not lost a single pound. I’m assuming the yogurt made with 1/2 & 1/2 is one of the reasons.

I am really confused. Paid for an inner circle subscription. I was using it fine until I commented on the Wheat Belly Facebook page about the L reuteri yogurt not working for me. All I said was that it would have been nice to know that woman under 45 shouldn’t be consuming it. My comments got removed, I am banned from the page and my inner circle subscription is no longer accessible. Please help me out here before I lose my years worth of respect for Dr Davis. He has used my pictures for testimony and everything. All I mentioned was that I think the yogurt raised my estrogen? I was going to post this morning that even though my period was super heavy my wrinkles are half gone. But can’t post. Very sad.

Wow, I am really confused! I have purchased everything to make this yogurt in my Instant Pot, and now am reading it’s not really for women. I’m 74 and have been doing WB since the first book was published in 2011. I lost a lot of weight and admire and thank Dr. Davis profusely! I have had two breast biopsies in the past. The first one in the 70’s was benign. The second one in 1994, was diagnosed as carcinoma in situ. The surgeon wanted to do a complete mastectomy, but I said NO and insisted on a second opinion at M.D. Anderson in Houston. After a lot of testing, they finally got the remainder of the frozen lump from the pathologists in Corpus Christi, TX and did their own pathology on it. That confirmed their suspicions! I had been misdiagnosed and did not have cancer at all.

They did take me off Premarin that my gynecologist had me on, telling me that with my fibrocystic disease of the breast I shouldn’t be taking it. I have had no further problem with lumps in my breast.

So, now I am afraid of making and eating this yogurt. What do you think?

Janie wrote: «I’m 74 … I had been misdiagnosed and did not have cancer at all.»

It sounds like you meet none of the criteria in the article here, listing people who might want to avoid trying this yogurt. Indeed, it appears that you were in much greater danger from the Standard of Care, who wanted to lop off body parts based on defective testing, and who prescribed dangerous equine hormones, relying on biased industry data.

Almost any significant shift in diet is going to alter hormone levels (males and females, it’s worth noting). Whether these changes are a net benefit or a net hazard in any individual case might be impossible to assess with current medical knowledge. So people are going to have to make their own calls on it. It’s part of being Undoctored.
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So do I. More than one, in fact:
What equipment are you using?
What temperature does it ferment at?
Does it have a pasteurization cycle?

I strongly recommend running a ferment cycle (for at least several hours) using plain water, and a probe thermometer, to discover what temperature range is held. This also provides user process practice.

re: «If I use a quart of organic milk and a quart of heavy whipping cream,…»

Sounds like my next batch. I presume you’ve checked the Ingredients lists on the bottles/cartons, and found only “Milk” and “Cream” respectively, and no preservatives, stabilizers, emulsifiers, etc.

re: «…how many BG tablets and how much inulin should I use?»

Dr. Davis’ original recipe calls for 10 well-crushed tablets and one tablespoon of inulin. Those instructions did not discuss any [re]pasteurization step. If you run a pasteurization cycle (typically 180°F for 10 minutes), do not add the Biogaia® Gastrus® until after it has been cooled to 110°F or less.

Dr. Davis has also made it with unmodified “raw” potato starch (RPS) in addition to the inulin, and with just RPS added (no inulin).

The above are the official answers. If you browse this topic on both blogs, you’ll see that many folks vary the formula.

Almost every batch I’ve made since April has been an experiment of one sort or another (with 2 complete failures, both coconut milk attempts), and diverge from the original recipe. The next will be no exception (and this is just a report — not a recommendation):
1 quart pastured near-organic heavy cream
1 quart pastured near-organic whole milk
1 tablespoon inulin
1 tablespoon RPS
Pasteurize the above. Cool to 98°F.
Whisk in 2 slowly-thawed ice cubes of whey fraction from an earlier batch (the starter)
98°F target temperature
Open run time

I’ve used 98° previously, and concluded that 36 hours is far longer than necessary (it’s pretty tart). What’s adventurous this time is that I’m going to add the inulin and the RPS prior to the pasteurization cycle, and the yogurt will be checked every 8 hours or so, in an attempt to discover optimum brew time for this temperature.
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