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The Christianity Defense

Posted on: February 1, 2010 - 1:24am

gingerpunk

Posts: 10

Joined: 2009-08-24

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The Christianity Defense

How many times have you heard someone defending the character of another with the faulty logic that because they are Christian, they are righteous and moral? I've heard this too many times, more times than I can count, and I think it begs the question: What exactly is the connection between religion and morality?

I just don't see it.

Was it not until the Dark Ages that a connection was even supposed to exist? Why is it that subscribing to the belief system of the majority seems to dictate to some that so-and-so must be a decent human being? Doesn't anyone take into considerations the massive amount of treachery committed in the name of religion? Whenever this defense is used, my mind starts to wander...

Salem, Massachusetts, 1692: Dorcas Goode is 5 years old. Not only is she cursed with the name Dorcas, but she's in jail. Her mother, Sarah (also known as the town whore,) was recently named a witch and executed. Dorcas was named a witch as well, and shackled to a prison wall. The town had special shackles made for this dangerous criminal, because she kept escaping from the 'grown up' ones. Dorcas shared a cell with her mother and a few other women up until after the trials, when the churchmen came in and dragged the other women away in small groups. Little by little, Dorcas watched them all leave and never come back, probably wondering why her mom would leave her like this. Maybe she didn't have to wonder. They probably told her exactly where her mother and the other women went, told her that when she was big enough, they'd do it to her, too. It seems like even they couldn't stomach killing a small child, but it didn't seem to be a problem to have her rotting in prison for seven of her tender formative years. When the mass hysteria that was the Salem Witch Trials ended, it seems like everyone forgot about little Dorcas. Someone came and sprang her in 1699, hopefully with the best of intentions, but you never know. I don't know anything about the rest of her life, but I imagine she must have been insane after spending most of her childhood chained to a wall. This in the name of Jesus.

When I was in middle school, I became morbidly fascinated with dark, dark history. By the time I'd reached high school I'd read several books on the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and other such blemishes on the face of human history. The story I've retold above sticks in my head more than any other; a single child, alone, afraid, and chained to a wall for seven years for Jesus. It would've been more humane to just kill her. I couldn't tell you what she looked like, yet I've carried her picture in my head for nearly twenty years. It comes to mind at odd times, like when someone uses the fact that a certain person is a Christian as a defense of their character. "But he's a Christian!" or "She's at church every Sunday." So was Father Bruno, who baptized my little sister, but I hear he's locked up now- something about altar boys?

I can't fathom that the world has felt any positive influence at all from the existence of religion, yet the other day my sister (who was baptized by a pedophile) was defending those horrible cultist Duggars to me in my mother's kitchen. She used the word 'exemplary,' I believe. As for me, I do not approve of their immoral lifestyle choices- and there are several. I, for one, feel that Fundamentalism is an immoral lifestyle choice, but, if you're not on the boat with me there, we'll put that one aside. Racism is one of many driving forces behind the cultist Quiverfull movement of which the Duggars are a part. It seems that bigotry in general is a huge part of this cult, and if racism and bigotry are not immoral lifestyle choices, I do not know what the term means. (And, unlike the Fundies, I do.) Drastically increasing overpopulation by massive reproduction is immoral on so many levels, but add to that the fact that the reason for this overbreeding is that your religion states it is necessary in its plot for world domination and you're beyond immoral lifestyle and headed into evil overlord territory. Filling a child's head with nonsense is tantamount to child abuse in my opinion, but creating an environment where no child could possibly receive enough individual attention is just insane. I outlined all of these facts, but my sister refuses to believe the Duggars are part of a world-domination cult and maintains that their 18, 19, 20, whatever kids will be "good people, like their parents." What makes them good people? "They're good Christians."

This persistent fallacy needs to be addressed. To avoid a circular argument that threatened to last all night, I replied, "So was Hitler," and left the room.

There's no point trying to make a point to people who just won't listen. That's my frustration tonight.

I wonder if they intended to sell the kids or if they just wanted to indoctrinate them in their f-ed up belief system. Either way, they knew they were kidnapping and that some of those kids had living parents. What a mess. You're right, though. Exactly what I was talking about.

Pretty much the basic teachings of modern day Christianity are far removed from the original. As much as I hate organized religion the dangerous part of it is the "organized" rather than the "religion." No atrocity of Christendom or any other religious state had any power granted to it outside of politics, and that through the masses. I could never understand militant atheism as being anything other than another side of the smallest coin. Most atheists are either ex Christians, having seen the poor example of false teachings and moral hypocrisy or politically frustrated.

Christianity, which Judaism led up to, is about acknowledging our sinful nature and trying to keep it at bay. Not pretending it doesn't exist or in this present system is revoked. The modern day Christian - self appointed moral police of the globe - are far removed from Jesus who was no part of the world. Issues like abortion and homosexuality are political issues outside the congregation and no business of the hypocrites.

I fully understand the point you are making here. Being a skeptic it is something that has bothered me for most of my adult life. I've always took pride in doing the right things. Yet no matter where I go it's always assumed I have no morals.

Actually had an interesting story from a friends family gathering. My friend is agnostic, and the religion topic came up with his heavily religious family. He explained one of his biggest pet peeves is people assuming he doesn't have any standards. His aunt said he understood that. Then two minutes later she says "It must be easy not having any morals".

His best response was "It must be easy having yours chose for you"

I will say in my experiences, its usually not the intelligent educated people willing to engage in a discussion who are guilty of these assumptions that all Christians are good and all non Christians are bad. It tends to be more a product of those who have never even questioned if they believe and are under educated when it comes to the subjects, but it is still one of the biggest things that bother me about religion. A good person is a good person regardless of religious affiliation.

Pretty much the basic teachings of modern day Christianity are far removed from the original. As much as I hate organized religion the dangerous part of it is the "organized" rather than the "religion." No atrocity of Christendom or any other religious state had any power granted to it outside of politics, and that through the masses. I could never understand militant atheism as being anything other than another side of the smallest coin. Most atheists are either ex Christians, having seen the poor example of false teachings and moral hypocrisy or politically frustrated.

I can't disagree with much of this statement. In pretty much any situation where people feel as strongly about things as they do religion you will usually have the issues. And those in power have often used religion as a way to manipulate the masses.

You have to take this both ways, everyone is an individual, there will be good and bad people on all sides of this debate.

You can add me into the ex christian atheists as well. However I converted at a younger age than most so I was never big into it anyways.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

If you are a religious person, particularly a Christian, you are bad by default.

The reason for this is that the system you are supporting is evil in and of itself. There is no getting around that fact. "Christianity" may appear benevolent at times, but history proves that the greater mass of Christian people are only too willing to serve as useful idiots in the manipulative schemes of evil people who understand how to wield power over masses. People who have already accepted the belief in God(s) and supernatural arrangements as a leap of faith are already gullible by own choice and design, and therefore susceptible to other virulant ideas as well. There is no lack of historical examples for how this mechanism works on a pragmatic level. When your attention is open towards being manipulated through fear and ignorance, you will be manipulated through fear and ignorance. Make no mistake about that. Where there is a weak spot in a species, nature always provides a predator.

So what, then, is good?

This is by and large a philosophical question of ethics, but it stands to reason to claim that all people are equipped with common sense. And common sense comes with common human decency - because we are social animals who are instinctively seeking the company of others. Only the people who abandon their common sense in favour of fairy tales - i.e. insanity - lose their common human decency as well, making them behave in antisocial and destructive ways (unless regulated and moderated by an external authority). Any psychiatrist can explain to you how this works.

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

I can't disagree with much of this statement. In pretty much any situation where people feel as strongly about things as they do religion you will usually have the issues. And those in power have often used religion as a way to manipulate the masses.

You have to take this both ways, everyone is an individual, there will be good and bad people on all sides of this debate.

You can add me into the ex christian atheists as well. However I converted at a younger age than most so I was never big into it anyways.

I don't think of people as "good" or "bad" and I don't think that I ever have. I don't recall having that sort of attitude before I became a believer in my mid 20's and I certainly don't think that becoming a believer changed me in a moral sense. My favorite verse in all of the Bible is Micah 6:8, which, in my favorite translation reads: "He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God?" The Hebrew word there translated as modest means to be aware of your limitations. Maybe traditional Christians judge people in a societal context the same as a rich person will judge a poor person or a poor person will judge a rich person. I think that anyone who does that misses the Christian message. Jesus objected to being called good. (Mark 10:18)

Upon becoming a believer I became more aware of my limitations and the limitations of others was, though different than my own, from the same source. Sin. And sin is sin. Adolph Hitler who is perceived as a monster has the same sin as "Sister" Theresa who is perceived as a "saint," and theirs is the same as mine or anyone else's. I think that all people have good and bad in them.

If you are a religious person, particularly a Christian, you are bad by default.

The reason for this is that the system you are supporting is evil in and of itself. There is no getting around that fact. "Christianity" may appear benevolent at times, but history proves that the greater mass of Christian people are only too willing to serve as useful idiots in the manipulative schemes of evil people who understand how to wield power over masses. People who have already accepted the belief in God(s) and supernatural arrangements as a leap of faith are already gullible by own choice and design, and therefore susceptible to other virulant ideas as well. There is no lack of historical examples for how this mechanism works on a pragmatic level. When your attention is open towards being manipulated through fear and ignorance, you will be manipulated through fear and ignorance. Make no mistake about that. Where there is a weak spot in a species, nature always provides a predator.

So what, then, is good?

This is by and large a philosophical question of ethics, but it stands to reason to claim that all people are equipped with common sense. And common sense comes with common human decency - because we are social animals who are instinctively seeking the company of others. Only the people who abandon their common sense in favour of fairy tales - i.e. insanity - lose their common human decency as well, making them behave in antisocial and destructive ways (unless regulated and moderated by an external authority). Any psychiatrist can explain to you how this works.

It sounds to me like what you are saying is that there is this dividing line between the quixotic and the mundane; the religious and the irreligious and in a moral sense never the twain shall meet. A cultural divide. Them and us. The definition of "good" and "bad" is a stagnant pool or broken mirror between the two that allows each only to see the distorted reflection of themselves while unfairly exaggerating the flaws of the other by comparison. It's xenophobic, isn't it?

A "believer" has in effect sold their soul for an "explanation" which, if you look at it, really explains fuck all.

However, this isn't "xenophobic", this is to place the label of insanity where it rightly belongs.

There is a cure. But it is neither easy nor painless.

The believer knows that their soul is not theirs to sell. (Ezekiel 18:4)

If I'm not mistaken first you diagnose those who believe differently from you as mentally ill and then offer the difficult and painful cure under the guise, not of xenophobia, but what? Medical science? Don't kill me with kindness, man, get it over with quick.

You are. Mistaken, that is. There is no God - and you are going to die. That's all.

I really can't be arsed to explain reality to every moron who comes crawling out from under your rocks of ignorance.

This is not about what you are able to "believe", this is about what you can know.

I hear what you are saying and to a point I agree with you. A couple years ago I had a massive heart attack and quadruple bi-pass. I was dead. My younger brother was born dead with the umbilical cord around his neck and was revived and I don't think either one of us knows any more about death than you . . . which is nothing, mister, so some advice. Those who live under rocks of ignorance shouldn't crawl out and taunt thy neighbors rock or words to that effect.

Most atheists are either ex Christians, having seen the poor example of false teachings and moral hypocrisy or politically frustrated.

You have survey data to support this statement? Please provide the link to the data.

I may be an ex-Christian but what I consider to be false teaching is using a book of mythology to promote a reality that never was and could not be. The entire god belief thing of the God of Abe religions is founded on myths and legends that have commonality with all other myths and legends. Some are horrific stories, some are pretty fables, none have verification in the real world and I don't mean by that cities, towns, and places, I mean fantasy tales of creation, escape from Egypt, conquering Canaan, unified Israel, exploits of certain heros of the OT, the entire Jesus Believer movement that morfs into Christianity that rules the Roman Empire.

As to political frustration, that's an entire unrelated subject to religion and has not a thing to do with why I'm an Atheist.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.

You are. Mistaken, that is. There is no God - and you are going to die. That's all.

I really can't be arsed to explain reality to every moron who comes crawling out from under your rocks of ignorance.

This is not about what you are able to "believe", this is about what you can know.

I hear what you are saying and to a point I agree with you. A couple years ago I had a massive heart attack and quadruple bi-pass. I was dead. My younger brother was born dead with the umbilical cord around his neck and was revived and I don't think either one of us knows any more about death than you . . . which is nothing, mister, so some advice. Those who live under rocks of ignorance shouldn't crawl out and taunt thy neighbors rock or words to that effect.

Touches on the fundamental we're all talking a crock of shit to some degree. It is hard, however, when faced with no knowledge and no way of actually getting any, to listen to a group claim certainty. Both sides do this to some extent but theists have a way of plugging god into any empty socket that comes along instead of saying 'we don't know, we're trying to understand'. My position on mysteries is that they're not mysteries at all. We just haven't figured how they work yet.

Personally, I imagine death is a final event and the post life experience will be just like the pre-life experience. However, if Dr Ellie Arroway rides a worm hole to heaven and back, bringing me a report in her own fair hand, then I might believe. Alternatively god could walk through my door and say: "G'day, look I know you've been wondering about me for 40 years and I have been listening but I've had a lot on in another galaxy with an ant farm I'm getting started over there. I just wanted to let you know that I'm god and I am real". He could do a few miracles on the spot. I would shake his hand. Later we could watch some cricket and bond over a few beers around the BBQ.

The alternative to this scenario is having a real time relationship, including detailed and disappointingly one-sided conversations, with an imaginary god you have never met. A god who whether he exists or no, is, in the context of our reality, entirely a product of the human mind.

BTW, David, I'm in Sydney, Australia, and have no idea of Bloom County. What goes on over there?

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

I don't think of people as "good" or "bad" and I don't think that I ever have. I don't recall having that sort of attitude before I became a believer in my mid 20's and I certainly don't think that becoming a believer changed me in a moral sense. My favorite verse in all of the Bible is Micah 6:8, which, in my favorite translation reads: "He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God?" The Hebrew word there translated as modest means to be aware of your limitations. Maybe traditional Christians judge people in a societal context the same as a rich person will judge a poor person or a poor person will judge a rich person. I think that anyone who does that misses the Christian message. Jesus objected to being called good. (Mark 10:18)

Upon becoming a believer I became more aware of my limitations and the limitations of others was, though different than my own, from the same source. Sin. And sin is sin. Adolph Hitler who is perceived as a monster has the same sin as "Sister" Theresa who is perceived as a "saint," and theirs is the same as mine or anyone else's. I think that all people have good and bad in them.

Most atheists are either ex Christians, having seen the poor example of false teachings and moral hypocrisy or politically frustrated.

You have survey data to support this statement? Please provide the link to the data.

You know, I'm sort of short on cash this month so I can't afford to buy a propper one. Maybe next month, but suffice it to say your request is ample grounds for an ammendment on my part. It has been my own personal observation by having been an atheist for 25 years, knowing atheist all my life and having discussed with hundreds of them online that . . . what I said was true.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

I may be an ex-Christian but what I consider to be false teaching is using a book of mythology to promote a reality that never was and could not be. The entire god belief thing of the God of Abe religions is founded on myths and legends that have commonality with all other myths and legends. Some are horrific stories, some are pretty fables, none have verification in the real world and I don't mean by that cities, towns, and places, I mean fantasy tales of creation, escape from Egypt, conquering Canaan, unified Israel, exploits of certain heros of the OT, the entire Jesus Believer movement that morfs into Christianity that rules the Roman Empire.

As to political frustration, that's an entire unrelated subject to religion and has not a thing to do with why I'm an Atheist.

Are you saying you don't believe Jesus is God? I thought this was sophistry on Jesus' part. He doesn't say he is good directly, but it is generally accepted that Jesus thought he was God.

Hitler and Mama Theresa the same. I can buy that. Not sure I would put a lot of people in their category though.

Is Jesus God? is my own work, and should answer your question regarding what I think about it. Jesus was a god, just as Moses was, the judges were. He wasn't God. If you take a look at my link let me know what you think and we can take it from there if you don't mind.

Touches on the fundamental we're all talking a crock of shit to some degree. It is hard, however, when faced with no knowledge and no way of actually getting any, to listen to a group claim certainty. Both sides do this to some extent but theists have a way of plugging god into any empty socket that comes along instead of saying 'we don't know, we're trying to understand'. My position on mysteries is that they're not mysteries at all. We just haven't figured how they work yet.

Personally, I imagine death is a final event and the post life experience will be just like the pre-life experience. However, if Dr Ellie Arroway rides a worm hole to heaven and back, bringing me a report in her own fair hand, then I might believe. Alternatively god could walk through my door and say: "G'day, look I know you've been wondering about me for 40 years and I have been listening but I've had a lot on in another galaxy with an ant farm I'm getting started over there. I just wanted to let you know that I'm god and I am real". He could do a few miracles on the spot. I would shake his hand. Later we could watch some cricket and bond over a few beers around the BBQ.

The alternative to this scenario is having a real time relationship, including detailed and disappointingly one-sided conversations, with an imaginary god you have never met. A god who whether he exists or no, is, in the context of our reality, entirely a product of the human mind.

I think I'm starting to like the way you think, AE. Well said, as it were. Up to that last line, of course.

Atheistextremist wrote:

BTW, David, I'm in Sydney, Australia, and have no idea of Bloom County. What goes on over there?

They don't have Bloom County "down under" as we American persons like to say? We had The Men At Work.

It's a comic strip. It sounds a good one, too having done a bit of a skim. A little Peanuts perhaps. Sorry about Men at Work. I think we actually have some quite good bands here given there's only about 20 of us.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

It's a comic strip. It sounds a good one, too having done a bit of a skim. A little Peanuts perhaps. Sorry about Men at Work. I think we actually have some quite good bands here given there's only about 20 of us.

I think that Men At Work's Business As Usual stands even today as one of the best 100 albums ever made. As does INXS' Shooboo-Shabah (Spelling?) and AC/DC? C'mon! Bon Scott?!

It's a comic strip. It sounds a good one, too having done a bit of a skim. A little Peanuts perhaps. Sorry about Men at Work. I think we actually have some quite good bands here given there's only about 20 of us.

I think that Men At Work's Business As Usual stands even today as one of the best 100 albums ever made. As does INXS' Shooboo-Shabah (Spelling?) and AC/DC? C'mon! Bon Scott?!

+1 on AC/DC.

Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."

It's a comic strip. It sounds a good one, too having done a bit of a skim. A little Peanuts perhaps. Sorry about Men at Work. I think we actually have some quite good bands here given there's only about 20 of us.

I think that Men At Work's Business As Usual stands even today as one of the best 100 albums ever made. As does INXS' Shooboo-Shabah (Spelling?) and AC/DC? C'mon! Bon Scott?!

I have a couple of those Men at Work albums and I guess they haven't stayed fresh for me. Maybe overplayed on the radio when I was a teenager. There's something a bit patchy about them for me. But it's personal taste. Absolutely - Bon Scott. What a charismatic little puppy he was. I have an 8-minute plus live recording of Bon with the band doing Let There Be Rock. It really cranks. The film clip of the original version was great - Bon in the pulpit with that cheeky smile in his eyes. Very appealing to the preacher's son. That rough, raw thing they were was the Australia of those times. The late 70s and the early 80s. Those guys were mostly british by birth but they had hearts of fibro. There was a particular time in Oz when pub rock was wild, heaving madness. I can still remember seeing Chrissie Amphlet on the cargo net at Cronulla Workers Club in 1983. I was underage and got high on about 4 beers, a sniff of some joker's reefer and the simple presence of girls.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

Most atheists are either ex Christians, having seen the poor example of false teachings and moral hypocrisy or politically frustrated.

You have survey data to support this statement? Please provide the link to the data.

You know, I'm sort of short on cash this month so I can't afford to buy a propper one. Maybe next month, but suffice it to say your request is ample grounds for an ammendment on my part. It has been my own personal observation by having been an atheist for 25 years, knowing atheist all my life and having discussed with hundreds of them online that . . . what I said was true.

My own personal experience has been atheists have a plethora of reasons for not believing in gods.

David Henson wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

I may be an ex-Christian but what I consider to be false teaching is using a book of mythology to promote a reality that never was and could not be. The entire god belief thing of the God of Abe religions is founded on myths and legends that have commonality with all other myths and legends. Some are horrific stories, some are pretty fables, none have verification in the real world and I don't mean by that cities, towns, and places, I mean fantasy tales of creation, escape from Egypt, conquering Canaan, unified Israel, exploits of certain heroes of the OT, the entire Jesus Believer movement that morfs into Christianity that rules the Roman Empire.

As to political frustration, that's an entire unrelated subject to religion and has not a thing to do with why I'm an Atheist.

Stick around, I'm just getting started.

I think it's safe to say I'll stick around as I have been here for a few years. Will you?

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.