I hate that term. Im a star wars fan. I dont love Sidious. I dont fancy the guy. I just dont believe he should be so easily overpowered by Mace Windu.

who say that becasue Yoda lost the saber, it proves Sidious lighting can't be blocked, and becasue Yoda couldn't deflect it, it proves he can't deflect the lighting... becasue I'm not stubborn enough to say that becasue Sidious was Force pushed by Yoda, it proves he can't block Force pushes, because he was disarmed, it proves he would alway be disarmed.

I think Yoda's grip was as prepared and as strong as maces. Please, please dont mention the size of his hands or I will have to utetr those famous words!

Mace had to make a great effort to handle that lighting, come on. Yoda was on the edge of the pod just landed from a giant jump and holding the saber with just one hand. The fact that it happens once doesn't mean it would always happen.

Agreed. However, my point was that Mace dealt with Sidious' lightning. Ok it was with a saber, but he still dealt with it and overpowered Sidious ultimate weapon. That renders Sidious helpless against Mace. So if Mace could deal with the lightning then Yoda should be able to also in a similar situation perhaps.

Yoda tried himself and failed. Who minds if another one did it before. He makes his best and he fails.

Hey now in the Duel in ANH obi wan didn;t do any back flips or crap like that but he held his own, he gave up his life to Vader and died turning into the force, I wouldn't say he lost to VAder, he in fact became more powerful than Vader could imagine. Now I know that's changin the focus of topic so let me get back to it. The fact that the troopers were on their way to assist Sidious contributed to Yoda fleeing.

Well, that line is not any kind of reliable argument as it was proved false inmediately after being said.

He wasnt as powerful - no. But he had become more powerful.

That is another speculation, master Kenobi. You make too many ones. Maybe becasue the whole Sidious faking theory is based on speculations.
No where have I read anything about the jedi letting their power go and becoming weaker. Ask Lucas if you want to know why Obi looks weaker than Dooku, but I would say it's due to the fact that he wanted the fights in the new trilogy to be more impressive, and they have now digital resource.

So he just leave it as a plot hole? Nah. There is a logical explanation for things. This is it.

"War not makes one great".

But it's the most logical thing to think that if you are slow and weakened, and you need to use the power of the Force to get speed and agility enough to fight, you are using part of your power in getting that, and there is less power left to use for other skills and resources. So it's logical to think that if you are already agile and fast and don't need to spend any energy at all in that issue, you make use of more power for the rest

Hey now in the Duel in ANH obi wan didn;t do any back flips or crap like that but he held his own, he gave up his life to Vader and died turning into the force, I wouldn't say he lost to VAder, he in fact became more powerful than Vader could imagine.

Whcih is my point entirely. Kenobi becomes more powerful by not fighting or being a great warrior. His focus is elsewhere.

Now I know that's changin the focus of topic so let me get back to it. The fact that the troopers were on their way to assist Sidious contributed to Yoda fleeing.

I saw no sign of that on screen.

Anyway, im not saying Yoda should bounce straight back up. Im saying that he shouldnt just say Sidious is unbeatable seeing that Mace has already done the impossible.

Well, that line is not any kind of reliable argument as it was proved false inmediately after being said.

He wasnt as powerful - no. But he had become more powerful.

That is another speculation, master Kenobi. You make too many ones. Maybe becasue the whole Sidious faking theory is based on speculations.
No where have I read anything about the jedi letting their power go and becoming weaker. Ask Lucas if you want to know why Obi looks weaker than Dooku, but I would say it's due to the fact that he wanted the fights in the new trilogy to be more impressive, and they have now digital resource.

So he just leave it as a plot hole? Nah. There is a logical explanation for things. This is it.

"War not makes one great".

But it's the most logical thing to think that if you are slow and weakened, and you need to use the power of the Force to get speed and agility enough to fight, you are using part of your power in getting that, and there is less power left to use for other skills and resources. So it's logical to think that if you are already agile and fast and don't need to spend any energy at all in that issue, you make use of more power for the rest

Okey dokey

Yoda already thought that in the new trilogy. While Mace and Obi were glad because of the victory, he made them realize that there was no victory at all. The war itself was a defeat.

Dooku meant he had become more powerful by turning to the dark side, not by getting older...

I belive he can not take that risk. Maybe if there were 4000 jedi and 234 masters as powerful as him. But being obi wan and Yoda the last two jedi alive...

Also I belive it would not be so easy for him to get to the Emperor again

So he dies and allows his half trained pupil to face Sidious him instead in hope of keeping the Jedi Order alive.

It goes either two ways:

The jedi trained Luke to face vader and then do what was right at the time - therefore it wasnt about killing Sidious in combat. Thats fine. But if thats the case doesnt it cheapen the idea about beating Sidious through other means when Mace can do it fair and square in a duel?

"Hey Skywalker! Pick your saber back up! You can kill him!

OR

If Luke was trained to kill Sidious it makes the jedi seem very silly. Luke was half trained and was no where near as powerful as Yoda or Kenobi in their ROTS prime. Why would he be able to destroy Sidious? Secondly, they allow him to confront Sidious when he is half trained. So yoda must have been kicking himself for passing up the opportunity of facing Sidious again - because a Yoda after ROTS was far stronger than a Luke in ROTJ - basically he would have had a better chance of killing Sidious being the more powerful.

I belive he can not take that risk. Maybe if there were 4000 jedi and 234 masters as powerful as him. But being obi wan and Yoda the last two jedi alive...

Also I belive it would not be so easy for him to get to the Emperor again

So he dies and allows his half trained pupil to face Sidious him instead in hope of keeping the Jedi Order alive.

It goes either two ways:

The jedi trained Luke to face vader and then do what was right at the time - therefore it wasnt about killing Sidious in combat. Thats fine. But if thats the case doesnt it cheapen the idea about beating Sidious through other means when Mace can do it fair and square in a duel?

"Hey Skywalker! Pick your saber back up! You can kill him!

OR

If Luke was trained to kill Sidious it makes the jedi seem very silly. Luke was half trained and was no where near as powerful as Yoda or Kenobi in their ROTS prime. Why would he be able to destroy Sidious? Secondly, they allow him to confront Sidious when he is half trained. So yoda must have been kicking himself for passing up the opportunity of facing Sidious again - because a Yoda after ROTS was far stronger than a Luke in ROTJ - basically he would have had a better chance of killing Sidious being the more powerful.

*After sending a half trained Luke off to fight Vader and Sidious*

"Maybe fought Sidious I should have again..."

p.s after learning vapaad of course

Don't break your mind so hard trying to find explanation to everything, because this is a movie and doesn't have more logic than Georce Lucas' logic, which is pretty strange sometimes.

I believe the problem is that he has changed some concepts of the saga from the old trilogy to the new trilogy and created some contradictions.
When he shot the old trilogy he probably had not invented the concepts of the prophecy and the chosen one yet. Even early notes about episode 1 script shows he had not decided who would be Anakin's father yet.
When he shot the old trilogy I believe he considered Luke as already trained to eventually kill the Emperor. Vader says his skills are complete, and indeed you are powerful as the Emperor had foreseen.
Most importantly, when Luke goes back to Dagobah to complete his training, Yoda replies he needs no more training. So where is the half trained Luke? They told us he was already fully trained.

The problem is that now in the new trilogy he has showed how powerful Yoda and the Emperor are, and how one doesn't reach his top potential until long after getting the Jedi knight rank, and from the point of view of the entire saga, Luke had to be a half trained jedi to be consistent.
anyway I think it's not consistent at all, but what can we do?? We still watch the movies, buy the DVD and the merchandising, and that's all they need.

Don't break your mind so hard trying to find explanation to everything, because this is a movie and doesn't have more logic than Georce Lucas' logic, which is pretty strange sometimes.

Here comes the - its a continuity error explanation. Please, this isnt an argument that stands up. Surely you would prefer to see the logical explanation rather than leave it as a 'plot/story hole'?

I believe the problem is that he has changed some concepts of the saga from the old trilogy to the new trilogy and created some contradictions.

I dont. I believe he's added some new things that have changed old things - made them more interesting.

When he shot the old trilogy he probably had not invented the concepts of the prophecy and the chosen one yet. Even early notes about episode 1 script shows he had not decided who would be Anakin's father yet.

What does that matter?

When he shot the old trilogy I believe he considered Luke as already trained to eventually kill the Emperor. Vader says his skills are complete, and indeed you are powerful as the Emperor had foreseen.

Maybe, maybe not. What Vader says is irrelevant.

Most importantly, when Luke goes back to Dagobah to complete his training, Yoda replies he needs no more training. So where is the half trained Luke? They told us he was already fully trained.

Yoda isnt referring to his mere powers as a warrior. Luke was mentally ready for the challenge to face Vader. Lucas says he's half trained on the ROTJ DVD.

The problem is that now in the new trilogy he has showed how powerful Yoda and the Emperor are, and how one doesn't reach his top potential until long after getting the Jedi knight rank, and from the point of view of the entire saga, Luke had to be a half trained jedi to be consistent.

You've lost me?

anyway I think it's not consistent at all, but what can we do?? We still watch the movies, buy the DVD and the merchandising, and that's all they need.

So your argument against my points is that star wars doesnt make sense?

Yoda isnt referring to his mere powers as a warrior. Lucas says he's half trained on the ROTJ DVD.

And what is Yoda referring to then?? So Luke goes back to Dagobah to complete the training he had left too early, and yoda who knows he is going to have to face the sith and needs to develop all his powers simply tells him "you need no more training". But he wasn't referring to his powers as a warrior, but to his ability to make bubbles wiht shampoo, which of course is the most important thing to defeat the sith.

Come on guy, I thought I was having a constructive discussion with you, but it seems it's over. We go back to the competition to prove his wonderful majesty was faking and to twist things as much as possible.

When Yoda fights he isnt an 800yr old frog anymore. The force gives him the power to fight. Being the most powerful force user among the Jedi I can't see why it would matter how old he is.

"Luminous beings are we...not this crude matter".

Therefore being more experienced with the force and being stronger with the force than Mace, thus it shouldnt make Mace better than him just because he is younger.

The question here isnt a case of Yoda losing and Mace winning. Its a case of why he believes that confronting the Sith is doomed to failure if Mace was capable of defeating Sidious.

lets say i agree with you here and yoda is wrong to think that sidious cannot be defeated because mace beated him,even in that situation yoda is right because: mace is dead,obi wan is not nearly in sidious league,yoda proved himself that he could not defeat palpatine,a rematch for yoda is impossible because palpatine would have like 1000 clones with him,anakin who could have beaten sidious turned to the dark side and lost more than half his potential wich makes him a lot weaker than sidious.he knew that sidious could not be defeated until luke shows up.

And what is Yoda referring to then?? So Luke goes back to Dagobah to complete the training he had left too early, and yoda who knows he is going to have to face the sith and needs to develop all his powers simply tells him "you need no more training". But he wasn't referring to his powers as a warrior, but to his ability to sing bubbles wiht shampoo, which of course is the most important thing to defeat the sith.

His mental abilities. Luke wasnt ready to face Vader - physically or mentally. He certainly wasnt ready for the truth nor could he let go of his attachments. But now he was more capable of rational thought - that is why he was ready. Luke was able to compete with Vader - stay alive physically. But it was his mental abilities that were vital.

Come on guy, I thought I was having a constructive discussion with you, but it seems it's over. We go back to the competition to prove his wonderful majesty was faking and to twist things as much as possible.

This is coming from the guy who says star wars doesnt make sense? Okey dokey

One fight outcome does not indicate that all fights would have the same outcome. When you are dealing with masters of the Force, the fight can go any way based on just the slightest variable.

Yoda and Ben do not want to risk facing the sith again because although they could possibly win, they could also just as easily lose.

They don't want to take that risk without ensuring that the twins remain safe have the chance to learn and grow in the Force.

They want the Jedi to survive.

I agree with everything you say there ETC. The Jedi want to survive. Different fights, different outcomes.

But the question is this:

what do they want Luke and Leia for? TO kill the Sith or destroy through other possible means?

And if its to kill Sidious, isnt Yoda more powerful after ROTS than Luke in ROTJ? Thus wouldnt he have a better chance of killing Sidious? Especially since we know that Mace did it and in such a quick time?! Wouldnt Yoda feel pretty foolish in ROTJ when allowing a half trained Luke to go off and fight Sidious when he would have been a better choice 15-20 years ago?

And what is Yoda referring to then?? So Luke goes back to Dagobah to complete the training he had left too early, and yoda who knows he is going to have to face the sith and needs to develop all his powers simply tells him "you need no more training". But he wasn't referring to his powers as a warrior, but to his ability to sing bubbles wiht shampoo, which of course is the most important thing to defeat the sith.

His mental abilities. Luke wasnt ready to face Vader - physically or mentally. He certainly wasnt ready for the truth nor could he let go of his attachments. But now he was more capable of rational thought - that is why he was ready. Luke was able to compete with Vader - stay alive physically. But it was his mental abilities that were vital.

Come on guy, I thought I was having a constructive discussion with you, but it seems it's over. We go back to the competition to prove his wonderful majesty was faking and to twist things as much as possible.

This is coming from the guy who says star wars doesnt make sense? Okey dokey

It can't be just his mental abilities. They were training his powers, because he was supposed to physically kill the sith. Luke came back specifically to complete his training, and Yoda said that training was complete. So or he was fully trained, or he had been trained just mentally and the training he left and didn't complete was just a mental training, because he went back to complete the training he had left, and Yoda said that training was already complete He didn't say anything about his mental abilities being trained but still having much to learn physically. Stop the speculations, I've had enough of them.

Star Wars makes sense but you will have to admit that it has a lot of contradictions and things that are not very logical.
Why the hell does Windu rise his arm to kill Palpatine like if he was using an iron sword instead of simply extending his arm the slightest distance and burning Sidious' face?? Ultimately it meant his death and was the most absurd and unnecessary thing to do.
Can you give an answer to this? Becasue I have found nobody capable of giving a coherent reason for this.

It can't be just his mental abilities. They were training his powers, because he was supposed to physically kill the sith.

Thats debateable and for another thread.

Luke came back specifically to complete his training, and Yoda said that training was complete. So or he was fully trained, or he had been trained just mentally and the training he left and didn't complete was just a mental training, because he went back to complete the training he had left, and Yoda said that training was already complete He didn't say anything about his mental abilities being trained but still having much to learn physically. Stop the speculations, I've had enough of them.

Dont really understand what you have said there. I'll freestyle anyhow. Lucas confirms that Luke was half trained. Yoda says that Luke knows what he needs. therefore Luke is prepared mentally for the challenge now.

Star Wars makes sense but you will have to admit that it has a lot of contradictions and things that are not very logical.

i.e?

Why the hell does Windu rise his arm to kill Palpatine like if he was using an iron sword instead of simply extending his arm the slightest distance and burning Sidious' face??

Because he's hesitating. he isnt sure if he should or not.

Ultimately it meant his death and was the most absurd and unnecessary thing to do.
Can you give an answer to this? Becasue I have found nobody capable of giving a coherent reason for this.

They want the Jedi Order restored and balance brought to the Force. They hope Luke can destroy the Sith. If he cannot, they have Leia.

They're just not going to send a busload of the remaining Jedi if it could mean they all get wiped out. Yoda wants Luke to pass on what he has learned.

They want the twins to pass on the Jedi legacy and to destroy the Sith.

But Luke cant do that if he's dead. it doesnt matter who dies. if yoda goes and dies then the jedi may be finsihed. But Yoda dies before Luke goes. So if Luke dies then the jedi are finished - no one left to teach Leia.

I see it like this.

Yoda is Man Utd.
Sidious is Chelsea
Luke is Newcastle Utd

Chelsea are the best team. Newcastle Utd can beat Chelsea. The chances however of Man Utd beating Chelsea are higher than Newcastles -because they are the better team.

Yoda after ROTS is a better fighter than Luke in ROTJ, therefore he has a better chance of defeating Sidious.

lets say i agree with you here and yoda is wrong to think that sidious cannot be defeated because mace beated him,even in that situation yoda is right because: mace is dead

But Mace beat Sidious and could have killed him.

,obi wan is not nearly in sidious league,

Doesnt come into it.

yoda proved himself that he could not defeat palpatine

So he coudlnt ever beat Sidious although Mace windu had?

,a rematch for yoda is impossible because palpatine would have like 1000 clones with him,

"Wont be a problem"

anakin who could have beaten sidious turned to the dark side and lost more than half his potential wich makes him a lot weaker than sidious.

Why is that relevant?

he knew that sidious could not be defeated until luke shows up.

But why - If mace could do it...

yoda is not mace alright.maybe mace got lucky and disarmed palps not for his superior skills but by kicking at the right time,maybe palps style was crap against mace.and dont say that thousand of troopers wont be a problem,there is no way yoda could get to sidious for a rematch even if he wanted. mace was the only one besides fully trained anakin who could beat sidious but mace is dead so there is nobody up to the task.

Dont really understand what you have said there. I'll freestyle anyhow. Lucas confirms that Luke was half trained. Yoda says that Luke knows what he needs. therefore Luke is prepared mentally for the challenge now.

It?s a nonsense. So Luke was training only his mind, Yoda and Obi Wan never intended he trained his powers, and he didn?t need his powers to defeat the sith??? If I need to believe all these things to buy the faking theory, I keep on believing what I saw onscreen is what actually happened.

Therefore the action of Mace beating Sidious doesnt matter in terms of Yoda and Luke's training because he has a different task.

What bothers me is that the scene in ROTJ is powerful because it seems the only thing strong enough to defeat Sidious is the bond between father and son. it seems that Luke's act of self sacrifice was the wise and great choice.

Yet now, it seems that Mace could actually kill Sidious. For me, it cheapens the finale.