A recent thread has veered into slavery and the fall of the West. While off-topic, it does bring up the role of household servants.

In this part of the world, the domestic maid is still very much alive - it's one of the largest, if not the largest, parts of the work force. Cook, housekeeper, and nanny, are all roles filled by the maid.

Nanny included giving kids, boys and girls, their baths, and that can go on until boys are well aware of the differences between boys and girls, which is incidentally something not regarded as a secret here.

The maid is traditionally a mulata (there are code words in newspaper ads, "from the south and Minas" to indicate white maids). Now that sounds discriminatory, but the Brazilian ideal of the sensual woman is also a mulata.

And the maid - or the neighbor's maid - is traditionally the initiator of upper-class Brazilian boys.

(That dual, or triple, view of the mulata, to use a Brazilian idiomatic expression taken from barbecues, "pulls the hot coals under our sardine.")

Going further back in time, Gilberto Freyre, in his Casa Grande and Senzala, decribes the intertwined lives of masters and slaves on the colonial plantations. Slave infants would be raised in the big house, treated much like domestic animals. And boys - children of the master, children of the slaves (and many were both) - usually went naked up to the age of five.

A recent fine children's film, Menino Maluquinho, has the hero, about eight, being told to take a bath by the maid. They're in the bathroom and he's naked. She tells him to take a shower, wash his butt and "pirulito" which means "popsicle" and which my slang dictionary describes as a term for a boy's - not a man's - penis.

I've read, though not in anything scholarly, that in the Middle Ages servants were looked on much as furniture. They were overlooked. You would no more conceal your nudity from them than you would from a chair.

The disappearence of servants from American homes has eliminated what was a common early source of CFNM.

Thanks. This is what I was looking for in my initial post: something I didn't know.

It is similar to the situation in the US South before the War of Northern Aggresion where slave women often took care of the owner's children and free and slave kids played together. A situation that seems peculiar to people today, who can only access it in literature.

I recall that a wealthy man's sons were the "ruin" of many free servant women in the 1800s, that is, making them pregnant and causing them to turn to prostitution. No doubt there was similar intimacy with the maids when children were small to what obtained in slave times: the servant could tell the children what to do when she tended to them.

An item I read about Roman slaves was that they had the status of domestic animals and that whatever you did in front of your dog or cat or horse you could do in front of slaves and it made no more social difference. No doubt the occasion for much of what we'd class as CFNM.

Note to some: I am not condoning such things, I am merely noting that they are recorded as having happened and are relevent to the topic. It is not possible for me or anyone else to change things that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago and it is thus futile to be enraged by them.

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If a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody there to hear it I don't care.

I'd argue that although there probably was plenty of CFNM opportunities, it took place in an environment of caustic ideals. That is, the slave-owners looked upon the slaves as animals--definitely not sexual. And the slaves themselves, since they were not engaged in the power-exchanged associated w/CFNM, would not find the situation erotic.

So I guess beyond the interesting academic edge to such a discussion, I find it to be pretty disturbing that there may be an interjection of sexuality into something like slavery. And I do find the period of slavery enraging, because it should be. Even if it already happened, it shouldn't be minimized no matter how 'futile' it may seem to some. If we aren't reminded of horrors such as that, the truth is fogged and the slippery slope to the rewriting of history is made.

I think "caustic ideals" is wide of the mark. Slavery was more a matter of economics than ideals.

Note that Thomas Jefferson kept slaves, and had a number of children by one of them. Benjamin Franklin, in his autobiography, says that the chief advantage of purchasing a slave over hiring a worker is that once you've taught a profession to the slave, he can't quit and go into competition with you. Both of those were enlightened gentlemen.

And quite a number of immigrants to the U.S. purchased their passage by willingly agreeing to years of identured servitude, which parses as slavery, even if but for a limited term.

I am not defending the system; I am merely saying that it was an ordinary part of the past.

And I don't see any problem with maids; many people are happy to get such work, and my understanding is that there are plenty of Hispanic yard workers in the U.S. at present, mowing the wide lawns around McMansions. I can't see much difference between someone working inside and someone working outside; nor between eating at a restaurant staffed by minimum-wage workers and having someone on a salary in your home kitchen.

Posters have noted here in the past that the young of today are nervous about nudity because today's homes are vast with many bathrooms, and while the ordinary living of the past required a family to share a bathroom, that is no longer true in middle-class America.

The point of the post was that the ordinary domestic arrangements of the recent and not-so-recent past put boys under the care of non-related women. In this part of the world, the skin tone of the woman who would bathe a boy naked at eight years of age, is precisely that of the woman society presents as a sexual idea a handful of years later.

I have no idea of what all the implications of that are, but the definitely seem on-topic here.

O.K., economics was the first thought driving slavery but how in the fuck can you say that there was no ill-willed ideology driving it? Jesus Christ, that's a ridiculous notion. Seriously, to be able to have the psychological fortitude to physically enslave an entire group of people means that you have to have a set of ideals to procure your motivation to keep doing it takes some sick thinking.

Sure there were a few sl;ave owners here and there that had sex w/their slaves or treated them a bit better than others. DOESN'T MATTER - THEY WEREN'T FREE! Lol... the fact that I'm even having to point that out is pretty ludicrous in itself. There's at least a thousand documented abhorrent reports for every one of the more 'positive' examples of Jefferson.

Indentured servitude has (because slavery still does exist today) NOTHING on forced slavery, they're two completely different creatures altogether. To even bring the existence of maids into this realm is more ridiculous.

I'm sorry, I'm NOT in agreement that if CFNM happens in a context of gross social injustice that it's eroticism is negotiable. No dice.

One of the interesting things about this board is that we deal with social phenomena that have changed within the lifetimes of the posters.

I've lately been reading a bit of history of the mining district in the 18th century. Eighty percent of the population was black, either slave (the vast majority) or free. The best artisans and musicians were mulatos, and slaves had their own religious associations and built their own churches, on a par with the whites.

There were few women in the overall population, and the vast majority of those were mulatas. And the priests preached against the vulgar custom of the prostitutes of displaying their wealth as they went to church on Sundays.

It's impossible to understand the mileu if one's willingness to understand slaves or prostitutes stops with "slavery and prostitution are evil".

Yes, they're evil, and yes, they still occur. I save my indignity for the present-day occurences rather than the historical ones. (I would put the practice of collecting Social Security taxes from illegal immigrants, while denying them the corresponding benefits, as a something deserving of condemnation.)

As to slavery and prostituion in historical context, I puzzle over such things as a free man married to a slave - the slave of another man. How did that work, exactly? Or even approximately?

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To even bring the existence of maids into this realm is more ridiculous.

Um, notice the topic thread. The notion is that historically, domestic servants have been formally treated as pets or furniture, but informally treated rather more as objects of love or passion. The sort of cognitive dissonance we talk about here.

I am amazed at people being enraged by things that happened centuries ago. What can you do about them? Everybody involved in them is dead. The object is to make sure such things do not happen again, not to foam at the mouth in inarticulate fury at long dead individuals.

Slavery was a purely economic matter. People who herd and slaughter cattle do not hate cows. They do it to make a living. In the Western hemisphere Indians were subject to disease and could easily escape. The Africans had been selling slaves to Europeans and Moslems for a long time, so it was simple enough to extend that to the new World. The racist ideology and customs were invented as the habit developed into institutions. The situation was not simple. I never knew anyone who was involved in slavery though I have known people who were toddlers during the US Civil War. I did experience segregation as a (white) child and remember my grandparents talking about it. Things were not simple, but complicated and the races could get along smoothly in some ways. A white boy who resisted being stripped and bathed by a black female -- perhaps only a few years older than he -- would probably be disciplined by his parents and told he'd better do what she says and be polite to her. An odd femdom dimension to it. No, I never experienced that.

I was once on a forum where a guy railed against the US because of slavery that ended in 1865 and the Indian wars that ended in 1900. I told him that currently in Sudan Arabs enslave blacks and that in Venezuela at that time Indians were machine gunned from helicopters, and suggested that if he weren't a coward he'd go to one of those places and confront people doing such things now instead of bravely attacking people dead and buried. He shut up.

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If a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody there to hear it I don't care.

I think slave stories and actual slave facts that took place make the best CFNm reading.. After all that's what CFNM is all about, the naked male is a slave to the clothed woman.

There's a certain influential brand of fanatic, kept safe by others' hard work, that can't deal with reality except by hating it. They can't be objective, they can't consider the complexities of situations, they can only rage against things that no longer happen or that happen elsewhere.

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If a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody there to hear it I don't care.

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