Someone on LetsRun posted a clever suggestion for retaliation: that people stop volunteering for the events. As someone else noted, the volunteers are largely coming from local running clubs and without volunteers, they'd be screwed. If only it didn't also affect the racers, it'd be pretty genius.

How much does this really matter? Are some of you offended because Competitor Group / Rock 'n Roll say that they cater to "the back of the pack" and since you have run a race or two of theirs, you don't want to be lumped in with all of the slow 'finishers' who are in it for the finisher's medal?

I can see being offended if you are routinely in the run these races trying to go for the overall win, but if you are running more to push yourself and pursue PRs, then these races are there for you just as much as the back of the pack slow people that RnR is looking to attract.

This is kind of like eating at a crappy chain restaurant and them complaining that the wine list sucks when you don't even drink wine.

I'm not sure "offended" is the correct word. I would say most of us are disappointed. I'm not an elite athlete but I have at least a small idea of what it takes and two of those things is support and opportunity. When one of the largest owners of significant road races in a country the size of the U.S. bails out on elite support the sport suffers. I think most runners can appreciate how that is sad.

I'd say most of us back of the packers are fans of the sport of marathoning. To not support the front of the pack diminishes the sport in its entirety.That being said, everyone faster than me is using PEDs.

Yeah, they are big, but I think many of the more hardcore people here already didn't like them, so this is just confirms that fact. I don't see why this should deter participation in their crappy events though. The fun-runs near me don't usually offer price money or elite runners, and I still attend sometimes. The over priced RnR events haven't held much appeal even before this news though.

Notatroll, you don't get it at all. It's nothing to do with being personally offended, it's about the sport of racing.

Using your analogy, what if Applebees bought a bunch of Michelin rated restaurants and switched them all over to onion rings and whatever crap Applebees sells because, what the hell, that's what most of America likes.

Think about how much professional runners make compared to football players, basketball players, etc. It's a struggle from the start and this is making one more hurdle for those who are gifted and make these races special.

I have NO problem with a company saying they're going to cater to back of the pack but why did they have to take over some wonderful well-respected races to do it? The Distance Run in Philadelphia was an institution. Now it's a RnR institution.

Not to mention the exorbitant prices RnR charges and then does incredibly stupid stuff like run out of water hours before a race is over and when the happens it's the back of the pack that suffers! They don't care about anything except making money.

I am a certified middle of the packer and while I respect the elite runners, they have almost no presence in my running race experience. By the time I cross the line, they are back in their hotel getting a massage. While I grab some leftover bagels, bananas and chocolate milk, I watch the "slower" runners finish. Their reactions to crossing the line stay with me.

The one time I encountered an elite was actually at a R&R race. In Portland this past May. There was an out n back very early in the race, so we all got to see the leaders when they, uhm, going "back". A lot of us slower runners acknowledged their presence and cheered them on. That was cool to see.

I think Competitor is underestimating how much the "back of the pack" and "middle of the pack" runners are interested in the faster runners. Granted, I have no interest in watching track on the tv. I have no idea about the results of the most recent Worlds. But I do read articles about the elites and am interested in their stories. But it involves understanding the audience.

I don't think runners have the same interests as fans of the more traditional sports, ie. NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, Nascar, etc. One main difference is that a lot of runners have very negative attitudes of sports and athletics (probably due to crappy Phys Ed. experiences) and so are less likely to hold elite athletes on a pedestal. More elite athletes who can tap into the mentality of being "one of us", the more people will be interested in following their careers. I think a runner like Kara Goucher does a good job of this.

GiM, You bring up some very valid points, but again, these are beefs that everyone should already have had with this outfit!

Why did these races with a long history sell out in the first place? I suppose "sell out" is the key phrase. Unfortunate, but maybe this will open the door for a new race to emerge and take away the committed runners from the RnR events. We should already have hated RnR due to a lame theme (bands every mile, who wants that?), and half marathons that cost over $100.

The sport is doing just fine for the recreational runner. If anything, there are too many races out there and that dilutes the competition among good local runners and can cause the community to dislike road races since a city starts shutting down roads too often for all of these color runs and marathons/half marathons.

to manhm1, i'm pretty sure most people will just assume that the fast, skinny dudes that have a huge gap on the field are "elite" regardless if they are 28 minute 10k runner, or a 30 minute local star.

Total non issue with me. I ran NOLA RnR event and thought it was excellent. Whether a race is RnR has no bearing on whether I would run it, I go on the reputation of the individual race itself. I just do not care how much prize money elites are making. I do not think there is a shortage of other races to win prize money at.

"Recently, as reported by flotrack, the Competitor Group has announced the elimination of its elite athlete program in North American races including in the half marathon in Philadelphia. I first became actively involved in the Philadelphia Distance Run after the race in 1980, when then race director, the late Bill Jackson, asked me to join his staff. Bill and I shared a vision for the PDR: we wanted it to be a community centered event that brought world class athletes to Philadelphia to toe the line in a highly competitive race on a beautiful course at the perfect time of the year for road racing. We believed that this approach would be good for the sport as a whole, good for elite runners, good for recreational runners, and good for the community. I’m happy to say that we were correct. When Bill retired from the race, he passed the race directorship to me. After a few years I stepped down as race director but continued to assemble the elite fields for several more years.

I am proud that the PDR launched, sustained, and resurrected the careers of many elite runners, both American and foreign. World records, national records, and age group records were broken regularly at the PDR. I will not attempt to name the giants of the sport who participated in the PDR for fear that I might make an inadvertent omission. Even a quick check of the records will verify the quality and depth of the fields from those years.

When I was involved in the race, I and the rest of the administrative staff worked as volunteers. We did it out of love for the sport and the people who are drawn to it and out of love for our community. The race was successful in every way year after year: it was competitive and operationally sound, it served Philadelphia and the local, regional, national, and international running communities well. It was financially sound. I was always pleased that wherever I went in the running community, be it on Kelly Drive and the Wissahickon Trail or to other cities for other events, PDR was always held in high regard. I regret that the current iterations of the race have not been so regarded, especially in the Philadelphia running community

By way of historical background, the Philadelphia Distance Run was founded in 1978 and operated under the auspices of the Philadelphia Family of YMCA’s. In the early years we branded the event as the fastest half marathon in the world and tried to prove it by bringing in elite fields to run fast and bond with the other participants. In early 1988, the Philadelphia Family of YMCA’s informed the race committee that it was withdrawing the level of support for the race that was required to maintain it at an elite level. Those of us who had built the event disagreed with that approach so we formed a non-profit corporation and negotiated the rights to the race away from that group. We maintained and continued to build the reputation of the event through tenacity, creativity, relationships, and courage. As the demands of our personal and professional lives made it impossible for us to continue to produce the race at the standards we set, we entered into a relationship with Tim Murphy and Elite Racing, because Tim and his colleague, Mike Long, seemed to share our vision. Over time, Elite Racing was sold to the Competitor Group which was purchased by Falonhead Capital. Later, Celara Capital purchased the operation. In essence, the PDR went from a world class community based event to a commodity. It has been very successful in terms of growth in participants, but the event has lost favor with the local running community, and the competitiveness of the event and the depth of the fields have declined over the past few years Still, the race continued to be an important stop for many elite athletes preparing for a fall marathon.

Now, those elite athletes have been informed that the event no longer believes their presence is important. I disagree. I have not yet seen a statement by the Competitor Group on the rationale for its decision. If, indeed, they have not provided one, I assume it is because that they feel that no explanation is required. If that is the case I would add a charge of arrogance to my belief that they are being their short sighted and myopic about the sport and the event.

When flotrack posted the Competitor Group announcement, it posed the question as to whether event producers like Competitor have an obligation to promote elite running. I believe that they do. Having worked in business for a large corporation I well understand the pressure for profits and to continue to improve profitability. That said, I also believe that a balanced approach is always better. My opinion is that the event owner has done a disservice to itself, the sport which provides its reason for being, the running community, and the legacy of great events like the PDR. It appears that it has sacrificed the heart and soul of the event in its quest for profit. It has been my experience in business that this is not an effective long term strategy.I have no problem with establishing a series of fun runs throughout the country. I do, however, disagree with an approach which guts long established, venerable events. The Philadelphia Rock’n’ Roll Half Marathon is being run on the date when the Philadelphia Distance Run traditionally took place, but the current event is a large, hollow shell of the old PDR. Given the proclivity for music that the Rock’n’ Roll series has, I submit for their consideration, the words of Robbie Robertson: Now, I don't mind chopping wood And I don't care if the money's no good You take what you need And you leave the rest But they should never Have taken the very best

For a race series that claims to cater to "back of the pack," they don't hold races that support that contention. Their course limits are not generally walker-friendly (at some point RNR Vegas had a 4.5 hour limit for the full, although I hear that has been extended to 5 hours). There are some races that have 7 hour course limits for the full, but this is the exception rather than the rule for their races. Their wave corral system also takes a very long time - I waited for over an hour for my corral to be released at RNR San Antonio in 2009. I understand that there are legitimate reasons to make these decisions and I do not fault Competitor for making them, but don't do stuff like that and then claim to cater to the back of the pack.

That being said, I ran RNR Denver last year and had a very enjoyable experience. So I can't claim to be an RNR hater and would consider running one of their events again.

I have not run one of their events yet. Las Vegas in November will be my first one. Elite racers were certainly not the reason for me to take on the challenge and I would not expect to see any really and so the impact for me is non-existent. More important to me is how the race is organized and executed in the end. If they fail on that part I would certainly not sign up for one of their races again.

On the other side I think this opens the opportunity for somebody else to professionally organize races that include elite runners and that also address the shortcomings of RnR marathons. Don't get me wrong - I don't like greedy companies that only care about money and shareholders, but I also think that a step like this opens up the door to another opportunity. It might not be a nation-wide organizer, but even a handful of races would be a great start.

This one's from an eloquent runner who, like slowrunningjulie, remarks about the "catering to the back of the pack" comment, though slowrunningjulie wins for having to wait an hour for the corral to be released. (that's just crazy talk)

Not sure if anyone cares but I'm going to continue posting stuff as it emerges since some of the posts provide an education on US racing.

Oh, and a local race director said something that struck me, that the money they're saving comes out to $1 per race participant. One lousy buck.

Good stuff GIM. I can understand where Competitor is coming from but my biggest problem is that they bought several marquee events that will not be the same without elite participation. Carlsbad...Philly etc.

Hey come on out for the Carlsbad 5k fun run. We used to be Bad but now we are as ordinary as your next door neighbor - Carl. That is what happens when you have to work on Labor Day.

I agree with your marquee comment. I think the reason many runners won't care much is that some of the RNR events are just fine for what they are. They do large fun races well (if you don't count the running out of water and food part). If only they could somehow give back the ones that matter.

As for the Carlsbad 5k, I was supposed to go in 2012 till life was interrupted. I think it's still on my to-do list, though it remains to be seen what sort of race it'll be after this.

Agree with the "That's What She Said" post. And now I know where that name's from - their team van was near us at Hood to Coast, and I wondered!

At least for St. Pete's they offered a full refund -- I was half expecting to see only a transfer to other races. It's possible they had problems getting the permit for roads for this, as St. Pete has a number of race events run by local RD's -- a city/county gov't may just have said "Enough."

How much does this really matter? Are some of you offended because Competitor Group / Rock 'n Roll say that they cater to "the back of the pack" and since you have run a race or two of theirs, you don't want to be lumped in with all of the slow 'finishers' who are in it for the finisher's medal?

I can see being offended if you are routinely in the run these races trying to go for the overall win, but if you are running more to push yourself and pursue PRs, then these races are there for you just as much as the back of the pack slow people that RnR is looking to attract.

This is kind of like eating at a crappy chain restaurant and them complaining that the wine list sucks when you don't even drink wine.

I like this. Seems to me that the only people that this affects are the elites, and I am not aware of any elites regularly participating in these forae.

Also seems to me that the best way to vote is with your wallet. The proliferation of the RNR races suggests that for every indignant post on this board, there are thousands of people who shell out $100+ to run their one marathon so they can tell all their friends about it and put 26.2 stickers on their cars. That's who RNR is marketing to. Now, there are many people (myself included) who don't like to be lumped in with that crowd. I submit to you that the best way to differentiate one's self from that crowd is to run much, much faster than them and let your times speak for themselves.

And BTW, don't we all agree that Disney events are 100x worse than RNR?!

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