In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle. The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates. That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France. As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested. And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627. Most Acadians are L21. I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle. The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates. That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France. As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested. And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627. Most Acadians are L21. I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle. The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates. That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France. As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested. And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627. Most Acadians are L21. I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle. The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates. That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France. As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested. And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627. Most Acadians are L21. I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

I think Iberia has already exceeded Germany for variance/diversity for SRY2627. It definitely seems to have done so for P312*.

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

By saying that SRY2627 is "centered" in the Pyrenees, that does not mean it has an origin there. I think most of the P312 subclades would have come into western Europe from a more north-central location such as Germany. And it would have arrived there from wherever R1b originated, etc.

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

By saying that SRY2627 is "centered" in the Pyrenees, that does not mean it has an origin there. I think most of the P312 subclades would have come into western Europe from a more north-central location such as Germany. And it would have arrived there from wherever R1b originated, etc.

Yes I agree, but Arch and myself have had many arguements over this subject and I was referring to his stance on it, not yours.

In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle. The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates. That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France. As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested. And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627. Most Acadians are L21. I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

I think Iberia has already exceeded Germany for variance/diversity for SRY2627. It definitely seems to have done so for P312*.

Arch

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle. The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates. That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France. As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested. And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627. Most Acadians are L21. I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

I think Iberia has already exceeded Germany for variance/diversity for SRY2627. It definitely seems to have done so for P312*.

Arch

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I recall the differences were very minute with Germany having a slightly higher variance rate. That was a while ago and since then it seems like we have been getting more results from Iberia.

In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle. The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates. That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France. As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested. And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.

Arch

I am the only person of Acadian/Cajun origin that has tested as SRY2627. Most Acadians are L21. I do strongly suspect that SRY2627 is centered in the Pyrenees region of both France and Spain, and that it made its way up the coast of France and to Britain from there.

I think the same thing, if not the Pyrenees then it's very nearby. Which side, North or South is debatable and there seems to be higher variance and diversity as one goes further south of the Pyrenees. I just find it remarkable with all the studies that have been conducted within Ireland and Britain that we are not seeing high numbers of SRY2627 there. Of course, commercial testing shows a substantial amount mainly around the London area. However, there's always a bias of access to testing and advertisement reaching out to people and that can bring up the numbers. Knowing that commercial testing is more accessible in Spain than in France, however, the commercial numbers of SRY2627+ show a higher percentage than Spain. Then of course Germany has iGENEA and I'm sure that draws attention there to get us a higher number of results.

Arch

I think it'd be interesting to do another variance run. I'd do it if I knew how! Or was able to easily access Mike's spreadsheats. When Iberia leaves Germany in the dust with regards to variance/diversity, which it has yet to do, I will lay the hatchet down.

I think Iberia has already exceeded Germany for variance/diversity for SRY2627. It definitely seems to have done so for P312*.

Arch

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I recall the differences were very minute with Germany having a slightly higher variance rate. That was a while ago and since then it seems like we have been getting more results from Iberia.

I wouldn't be surprised if SRY2627 turned up in ancient DNA from the Salomó Bell Beaker group. See here: http://tinyurl.com/7csk8ml

I've toyed with that idea of the Cogotas I and II cultures being a phase where SRY2627 possibly emerged; like many things, it's a possibility. I also have a map that shows quite a prevalence of Bell Beaker in Catalonia near the Ebro R. Delta. I'll have to upload it. I thought it was very interesting in the aspect that the number of BB sites were almost equal to those found in Portugal. The rest of Iberia only had minor sites.

I wouldn't be surprised if SRY2627 turned up in ancient DNA from the Salomó Bell Beaker group. See here: http://tinyurl.com/7csk8ml

Yes, but I was under the assumption that the Bell Beaker phase was already a thing of the past by the time SRY2627 emerged and expanded? Are you saying that these beakers carried L176.2* and that the SRY2627 mutation occured with them after they settled into Iberia? My money is still on the Urnfielders.. This would link the findings and variances between Iberia and Germany as well as the issue of age.

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region. SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15) SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region. SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15) SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region. SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15) SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia. Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.

I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region. SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15) SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia. Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.

I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

The only pattern I could discern from DYS490=10 is that I couldn't find any in Iberia (just DYS490=12 folks so far). Excluding Britain and Ireland, the highest numbers I could find for DYS490=10 are around the Atlantic regions of France.

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region. SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15) SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia. Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.

I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

The only pattern I could discern from DYS490=10 is that I couldn't find any in Iberia (just DYS490=12 folks so far). Excluding Britain and Ireland, the highest numbers I could find for DYS490=10 are around the Atlantic regions of France.

Arch

I am not entirely convinced that there is a DYS 490=10 subclade, but would love to learn of any SNP that is associated exclusively with it.

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region. SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15) SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia. Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.

I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

The only pattern I could discern from DYS490=10 is that I couldn't find any in Iberia (just DYS490=12 folks so far). Excluding Britain and Ireland, the highest numbers I could find for DYS490=10 are around the Atlantic regions of France.

Arch

I am not entirely convinced that there is a DYS 490=10 subclade, but would love to learn of any SNP that is associated exclusively with it.

I agree. It's a split but that's about it, what it signifies I'm not sure. Whether there's a geographical divide associated with the split or perhaps some lapse of time, I can't say. I just wish we knew more about it.

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region. SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15) SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia. Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.

I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

The only pattern I could discern from DYS490=10 is that I couldn't find any in Iberia (just DYS490=12 folks so far). Excluding Britain and Ireland, the highest numbers I could find for DYS490=10 are around the Atlantic regions of France.

Hopefully Mike will chime in and give us his opinion. I never remember a clear winner, one time it was Germany and the next time it was Iberia. Even when one did exceed the other it wasn't by leaps and bounds.

I have some reluctance to post this as I don't feel we have enough long haplotype data, particularly from Germany. I much prefer to do only 67 STR haplotypes in making comparions so here is the relative variance by region. SRY2627 in France appears to be older than I thought. I show two different methods depending how much you want to higher allele (usually faster) STRs. All multi-copy and null markers are removed in either method.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15) SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

I don't know, I just don't get SRY2627 as being that old in Iberia. Perhaps this makes sense if the Pyrenees were settled by a number of people from Southern France.

Anyway, the above is just data. I'll let you decide its value.

I don't advocate using fewer STRs, but in the interest of driving the count (N) of haplotypes up here is the same analysis using 37 STR or greater haplotypes.SRY2627 France______: Var=0.87 [Mixed 24] (N=22)SRY2627 France______: Var=0.96 [Linear 16] (N=22)

What do you think? The numbers are all so close about all I could possibly venture to say is maybe SRY2627 in France is a little older.

I think a couple of other things to consider in context are:1) Where are the L176.2* and L165+ brothers?2) Where are the Z196+ L176.2- cousins?3) Is there a discernible pattern among the SRY2627 490=10 subclade?

The only pattern I could discern from DYS490=10 is that I couldn't find any in Iberia (just DYS490=12 folks so far). Excluding Britain and Ireland, the highest numbers I could find for DYS490=10 are around the Atlantic regions of France.

Arch

I am not entirely convinced that there is a DYS 490=10 subclade, but would love to learn of any SNP that is associated exclusively with it.

Jason -

One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.

One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.

I recognize that SRY2627+ 4090=10 people are not marked by a unique SNP, at least yet. Hoewever, 4090=10 is such a rare occurrence that I think we could consider this a reliable clade.

Out of about 5000 P312 confirmed people tested for 490, outside of SRY2627, only 3 are 490=10. There aren't that many 490=11's even. 490=12 is modal. I just think the odds are very great that if you are SRY2767+ and 490=10 then you are probably more closely related to all of the other SRY2627+ 490=10 folks than to the SRY2627=12 folks. That makes 490=10 a clade for SRY2627.

Here are the SRY2627 490=10 guys that have Old World MDKA's in our DNA projects. There are a couple from Spain, but there are more from France and Germany.

One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.

I recognize that SRY2627+ 4090=10 people are not marked by a unique SNP, at least yet. Hoewever, 4090=10 is such a rare occurrence that I think we could consider this a reliable clade.

Out of about 5000 P312 confirmed people tested for 490, outside of SRY2627, only 3 are 490=10. There aren't that many 490=11's even. 490=12 is modal. I just think the odds are very great that if you are SRY2767+ and 490=10 then you are probably more closely related to all of the other SRY2627+ 490=10 folks than to the SRY2627=12 folks. That makes 490=10 a clade for SRY2627.

Here are the SRY2627 490=10 guys that have Old World MDKA's in our DNA projects. There are a couple from Spain, but there are more from France and Germany.

My SRY2627+ genetic cousins of whom I am aware (about 30 more than the approximately half dozen that I see in your list), most of whom are in two DNA projects, one of which I administer, could be added to your list.

One DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individual has R-L628+ and another DYS490 = 10 individual has R-L659+; L628+ and L659+ are private SNPs. I am SRY2627+ (DYS490 = 10, DYS425 = null, DYS525 = 6) and have not tested any SNPS downstream from SRY2627+.Stephen

I am not sure if this is what you intended, but this information leads me to believe that there is not a universal SNP associated with DYS 490=10.

I recognize that SRY2627+ 4090=10 people are not marked by a unique SNP, at least yet. Hoewever, 4090=10 is such a rare occurrence that I think we could consider this a reliable clade.

Out of about 5000 P312 confirmed people tested for 490, outside of SRY2627, only 3 are 490=10. There aren't that many 490=11's even. 490=12 is modal. I just think the odds are very great that if you are SRY2767+ and 490=10 then you are probably more closely related to all of the other SRY2627+ 490=10 folks than to the SRY2627=12 folks. That makes 490=10 a clade for SRY2627.

Here are the SRY2627 490=10 guys that have Old World MDKA's in our DNA projects. There are a couple from Spain, but there are more from France and Germany.

But does a rare occurrence mean it doesn't mutate quickly? I thought SNPs were based off of mutation rates, and not so much on rarity of STRs; especially one STR. Otherwise, DYS448=17 would signify another subclade within SRY2627 because of its rarity. Or am I just interpreting this wrong?