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Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Benvolio it is clear you are neither an economist nor even a capitalist. "Too many poor people" is another way of saying "under utilised mismanaged human resource opportunity." If you can't see how to profitably invest in that resource, for mutual benefit, then you'd not make it as a manager either. This is an opportunity that can be spotted after even an introductory Economics 101 course.

In fact the arguments you present were generally only heard from 1970's trade unionists, whose moment in the sun fighting for adequate working conditions had long passed, and when they had nothing left to do but cling to relevance by spewing populist protectionist economic claptrap.

If you do decide to do some remedial studies of economics, I suggest you begin with the "Lump of Labour Fallacy."

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

At one time, the poor might have been a resource, but with high employment burdens in the US, new technologies, and high foreign competition, it is no longer a realistic view. It certainly cannot justify the massive importation of new "Resources",far faster than we can find jobs for our own people.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by rareboy

I could care less how you take my objections. You continue to present bullshit arguments and claims....never backed up by sources.....you continue to hammer away at all of us with your barely disguised racist and xenophobic jingoism in thread after thread. and then expect otherwise.

But tell me where I personally insulted you.

And stop trying to derail the thread.

Your invariably rude posts are insulting and intended by you to be so. It should be obvious that I am indifferent to liberal insults or I would not be here. But you are hardly in the position to take high ground on insults.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

At one time, the poor might have been a resource, but with high employment burdens in the US, new technologies, and high foreign competition, it is no longer a realistic view. It certainly cannot justify the massive importation of new "Resources",far faster than we can find jobs for our own people.

True, if we send 12 million people back where they came from a lot of jobs will become available. Of course, some people might have to start mowing their own yards again.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

Your invariably rude posts are insulting and intended by you to be so. It should be obvious that I am indifferent to liberal insults or I would not be here. But you are hardly in the position to take high ground on insults.

And most of your positions and posts are an affront to human values and decency as well as common sense and logic most of the time....so I guess that evens us all up, doesn't it?

We get it. You don't like brown immigrants from anywhere. They are going to change the complexion of your country quite literally.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Also, which fallacy is "I provide sources, but you never accept them when they don't say what you want"? Because, Benvolio, that is factually incorrect. You ONLY EVER provide sources from rabid right wing places, and those are unacceptable, and you know it. Same way as you don't accept - nor should accept - rabid left wing sources. But there is a big group of semi-neutral and more centrist places that you can cite. Except, you can't, because you never go to those.

That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
- Gene Wolfe

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Nice theory but it won't wash. Liberals are so bigoted on the question of immigration and other subjects, that any source negative on immigration is certain to be labeled far right, racist, xenophobic etc.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

Nice theory but it won't wash. Liberals are so bigoted on the question of immigration and other subjects, that any source negative on immigration is certain to be labeled far right, racist, xenophobic etc.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

True, if we send 12 million people back where they came from a lot of jobs will become available. Of course, some people might have to start mowing their own yards again.

Of course, and some people might not have doctors, nurses, physicists, architects, mathematicians that the country has a shortage of. Go to your local hospital and see how many foreign doctors are on staff. There's a huge shortage of health care professionals and these "immigrants" are filling a desperate need.

Because the right wing republicans are slashing education funding so the millionaires and billionaires can have more money to hide in the Cayman Islands and Switzerland, Americans aren't educating and training professionals like they should. It's a generation of fast food service workers.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

The 12 millions are illegals. Not too many Doctors, we assume. I have always said we should allow doctors, nurses and scientists. We probably cannot send back all the illegals and perhaps should not try. But we should not reward them with citizenship until we stop the flood.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

The 12 millions are illegals. Not too many Doctors, we assume. I have always said we should allow doctors, nurses and scientists. We probably cannot send back all the illegals and perhaps should not try. But we should not reward them with citizenship until we stop the flood.

Many people immigrate here either on, or before joining, programs to join the medical profession. Here in California the hospitals are absolutely packed with first-generation Filipina nurses. They have to be trained here-- they came over and became nurses, not the other way around.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

My first reaction to illegal immigrants is "round them all up and deport them" to be quite honest. I believe in an open immigration process, but I also believe in the rule of law and people waiting patiently while they follow the rules. The thing is however, with millions and millions of people illegally in the country, it is clear this has been allowed all along with a nod and a wink.

To me this is kind of a statute of limitations thing. If someone has been in a country long enough to raise children, the ship kind of sailed on enforcement; their lives should not be ripped apart because of past failures under multiple administrations to enforce the law. Some kind of penalty, absolutely, just to preserve the distinction between legal and illegal, but not deportation and exclusion.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

No, you absolutely do not get it. We don't like ILLEGAL immigrants from anywhere. Skin color is irrelevant, and legality is everything.

Oh don't make us laugh. As long as someone is white and can speak English and of course. a white nationalist....you'd be pushing for citizenship for them in a whip stitch.

And face it, in your Ayn Rand world, Mr. Rearden, it is every person for themselves. And that includes the immigrants.

Typically, for the existentially and morally bankrupt 'objectivist' acolytes of this hypocritical sociopath, you want to be able to do whatever you goddamned well want to without interference from the government or anyone else...but you want rules for everybody else.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

Yeah that's pathetic bullshit. Your racism is well documented but you can't find a SINGLE instance if libs discriminating against whites. So this is nothing but lies and slander.

That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
- Gene Wolfe

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

Liberals hate white people? My, I've never heard that one before.

Immigrants aren't hurting anyone, in fact they do the opposite by bringing in "new blood" to the workforce and think-tank, along with contributing to the cosmopolitan culture. Not all immigrants, legal or otherwise, from Central and South America are impoverished laborers. Many are also educated specialists-workers that America desperately need since few native-born students want to take up a trade as most consider it "beneath" their station. I don't deny that illegal immigrants can cause problems, but that's only one issue with a process that has done nothing but good for this country.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

What are you talking about? Seriously, you just made this up. There's never been a liberal drive to reduce immigration from white countries in favor of nonwhite ones, excepting cases where people might have proposed expanding immigration or asylum status for particular countries in trouble due to current events.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Yeah that's pathetic bullshit. Your racism is well documented but you can't find a SINGLE instance if libs discriminating against whites. So this is nothing but lies and slander.

What I said was that IF the immigrants were white the liberals would be squawking. But yes, virtually all Democrat legislation contains an anti white element. For instance, the Dodd Frank Wall street "refrom" act requires agencies, financial organizations and contractors to avoid hiring white men to the "maximum extent possible" by hiring women and minorities to maximum extent possible.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

What I said was that IF the immigrants were white the liberals would be squawking. But yes, virtually all Democrat legislation contains an anti white element. For instance, the Dodd Frank Wall street "refrom" act requires agencies, financial organizations and contractors to avoid hiring white men to the "maximum extent possible" by hiring women and minorities to maximum extent possible.

There are illegal white immigrants in the U.S.

They are a non-issue. Nobody talks about it. That's why your position is utter nonsense and shows your own bias that illegals are only hispanic. There's tons of illegal Canadians and Chinese in the U.S.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

When Conservatives object to all immigration or all illegal immigration, you claim that it is racial. But when I reverse it and point our that liberals would object if the immigration was white, you claim the immigration is largely white. You can't have it both ways.
The fact is that I object to all immigration except a few doctors, nurses, and scientists, without regard to race.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Nobody claimed immigration is largely white O.o (though, frankly, Hispanics are white, but nvm). And you haven't "pointed out" anything, you made a wild and ridiculous claim that has no substance in reality. You can only "point out" existing stuff, not things in your head.

That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
- Gene Wolfe

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

What I said was that IF the immigrants were white the liberals would be squawking. But yes, virtually all Democrat legislation contains an anti white element. For instance, the Dodd Frank Wall street "refrom" act requires agencies, financial organizations and contractors to avoid hiring white men to the "maximum extent possible" by hiring women and minorities to maximum extent possible.

It sucks to not be undeservingly privileged anymore, eh? Sorry if unfair advantage was your only way of getting by.

That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
- Gene Wolfe

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

Once again...just utter drivel.

Liberals aren't opposing immigration.

Libertarians shouldn't be opposing immigration.

And the reforms to encourage the hiring of women and minorities? After centuries of institutionalized segregation, slavery and non-person status, it is sometimes necessary to level the playing field and to change attitudes by integration.

But you are never going to understand this, let alone be convinced. We all get it.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by rareboy

Once again...just utter drivel.

Liberals aren't opposing immigration.

Libertarians shouldn't be opposing immigration.

And the reforms to encourage the hiring of women and minorities? After centuries of institutionalized segregation, slavery and non-person status, it is sometimes necessary to level the playing field and to change attitudes by integration.

But you are never going to understand this, let alone be convinced. We all get it.

It is why discussion with you on this issue is sterile.

I said, IF immigrants were white, liberals would oppose it. It is no answer to say they do not now oppose immigration.
It is naive to think affirmative action is now to redress past wrongs. Giving AA to immigrants, facilitates discrimination against previous minorities, including African Americans.
It is not a coincidence that Democrat laws mandate hiring the groups which vote Democrat, which forbidding the hiring of white males, the group which least votes Democrats. You just don't get it.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

I said, IF immigrants were white, liberals would oppose it. It is no answer to say they do not now oppose immigration.
It is naive to think affirmative action is now to redress past wrongs. Giving AA to immigrants, facilitates discrimination against previous minorities, including African Americans.
It is not a coincidence that Democrat laws mandate hiring the groups which vote Democrat, which forbidding the hiring of white males, the group which least votes Democrats. You just don't get it.

So you just think that you can switch from saying that affirmative action for minorities and women is now tantamount to affirmative action for immigrants at the expense of affirmative action for blacks? HUH? What the fuck goes through your head when you are writing these types of arguments? The minorities category still also includes African Americans. How did it suddenly become about immigrants?

This is, by the way, the same bullshit argument that was used to discriminate against hiring Germans, Polish, Italian, Irish and a host of other populations when they first landed on the shores of the US.

Probably the same argument used against your ancestors at some point.

And you think that all this is just about buying votes?

Well get ready sunshine, because God's Own Party has apparently realized that they'd better start falling in line and stop being the party of angry old white guys like you if they have any intention of governing.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by rareboy

So you just think that you can switch from saying that affirmative action for minorities and women is now tantamount to affirmative action for immigrants at the expense of affirmative action for blacks? HUH? What the fuck goes through your head when you are writing these types of arguments? The minorities category still also includes African Americans. How did it suddenly become about immigrants?

This is, by the way, the same bullshit argument that was used to discriminate against hiring Germans, Polish, Italian, Irish and a host of other populations when they first landed on the shores of the US.

Probably the same argument used against your ancestors at some point.

And you think that all this is just about buying votes?

Well get ready sunshine, because God's Own Party has apparently realized that they'd better start falling in line and stop being the party of angry old white guys like you if they have any intention of governing.

As always, you do not understand. Immigrants legally just off the boat also qualify for affirmative action and it is illegal to discriminate in favor of existing Americans. When an immigrant is hired instead of an existing minority member,it is affirmative action but it does not redress past wrongs, and is just more discrimination with different beneficiaries. It destroys the alleged purpose of affirmative action.
And no, when the Irish and all those other groups came there was no affirmative action so it is silly to say the same arguments were made. But then as now, immigration facilitated discrimination against blacks by providing an available substitute.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Just how far do you have to reach to be able to make the kind of point you are making?

The idea that affirmative action is an affront to blacks or one supposes, the millions of Latino Americans that were born in the US is laughable.

You expect a single one of us to believe that you care or even think that white immigrants in the past took the jobs of the slaves and their descendants? You really, actually want us to believe this?

You want to convince me that a white legal immigrant from Europe is putting at risk the employment of African Americans or Latino Americans because of affirmative action? You want us to believe that these would be the people targeted for affirmative action hiring? Where do affirmative action plans use the words 'make sure you focus on giving jobs to all the newly landed immigrants right off the boat?' To be blunt, if someone arrives in the US as a legal immigrant with qualifications to do a job, then there is no reason why anyone should discriminate against them.

You may actually swallow the load of tripe you're serving up....but c'mon. Give the rest of us credit for being smarter than that.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

I said, IF immigrants were white, liberals would oppose it. It is no answer to say they do not now oppose immigration.

Yes, you've said that twice now, and that's just something you made up off the cuff, and there's no support for it in history or anywhere else. Plenty of immigration IS white, so this whole "IF immigration was white liberals would oppose it" thing is bull.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

- - - Updated - - -

As always, you do not understand. Immigrants legally just off the boat also qualify for affirmative action and it is illegal to discriminate in favor of existing Americans. When an immigrant is hired instead of an existing minority member,it is affirmative action but it does not redress past wrongs, and is just more discrimination with different beneficiaries. It destroys the alleged purpose of affirmative action.
And no, when the Irish and all those other groups came there was no affirmative action so it is silly to say the same arguments were made. But then as now, immigration facilitated discrimination against blacks by providing an available substitute.

Absolutely no competent white student anywhere in America fails to get into a decent college or fails to find appropriate grant, student aid or loan money if they need it, want it, and have the motivation to bother for it.

This myth that college spots are premium real estate and that every spot given to a low income minority has booted a white kid with decent grades out of college somewhere is absolutely myth. The entire concept that Affirmative Action is widely observed anymore or has been for the last 10 years is, equally, myth. It's been gone from the California public universities for at least 8 or 10 years and you'd call us some supposed hotbed of enabling illegals and immigrants and a liberal minority state.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

What affirmative action fails to do is take into account the individual circumstances of a struggling student. It fails to recognise that one student might be struggling due to racial prejudice, while another student might be struggling due to another kind of injustice. If you are not part of a designated group, it doesn't fix the problem.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by xbuzzerx

Absolutely no competent white student anywhere in America fails to get into a decent college or fails to find appropriate grant, student aid or loan money if they need it, want it, and have the motivation to bother for it.

This myth that college spots are premium real estate and that every spot given to a low income minority has booted a white kid with decent grades out of college somewhere is absolutely myth. The entire concept that Affirmative Action is widely observed anymore or has been for the last 10 years is, equally, myth. It's been gone from the California public universities for at least 8 or 10 years and you'd call us some supposed hotbed of enabling illegals and immigrants and a liberal minority state.

I was discussing affirmative action in employment as in the Dodd Frank act requiring employers covered to avoid hiring white males to the maximum extent possible.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by Benvolio

Immigrants legally just off the boat

I am interested in responding to your post, but need a little more information. Please explain what you mean by the above quoted term. Do you mean persons who become naturalized citizens of the US, or something else?

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Originally Posted by opinterph

I am interested in responding to your post, but need a little more information. Please explain what you mean by the above quoted term. Do you mean persons who become naturalized citizens of the US, or something else?

No, I mean immigrants coming to the US as legal immigrants, but newly arrived. They are allowed to work and come within the definition of minority (if they are not white males) and are protected against employment discrimination on the basis of "national origin".Therefore it is is illegal to discriminate in favor of American citizens, white or minority, on the basis of citizenship. You cannot prefer to hire Americans. They are legally entitled to a preference under Dodd Frank's "maximum extent possible" requirement, over white males.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Well I'm calling you out. I've read Dodd Frank and a number of the commentaries on Dodd Frank.

Where does Dodd Frank include the language that you claim it does......that legal immigrants go to the front of the line, even over 'American' women and blacks.

Section 342 of the Dodd-Frank bill mandates that each federal financial regulatory agency create "an Office of Minority and Women Inclusion that will, among other things, address employment and contracting diversity matters. The offices will coordinate technical assistance to minority-owned and women-owned businesses and seek diversity in the workforce of the regulators."

And more specifically, please cite any legal cases where a legal immigrant has received preferential treatement in hiring practises over white males.

Because otherwise....this just sounds like just another delusional rant from your Stormfront knitting circle.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Dodd-Frank does not say that legal immigrants go to the head of the line and that is not exactly my claim. It is part of the increasingly convoluted body of employment discrimination and affirmative action law. Several laws must be read together. Dodd Frank does put them at the head of the line over white males. But other laws make it illegal to discriminate on the basis of national origin, so, a preference cannot be given to American citizens, including black, Native American etc, merely because they are citizens. The combined effect is that the original intent of affirmative action to redress past wrongs against minorities, especially blacks, has been destroyed. Now it is just anti-white males who tend to vote Republican. It serves little purpose but to reward groups which vote Democrat.
What other reason could there be for giving (non white male) immigrants an immediate preference over white males.

Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

Jesus Fucking Christ.

Give us the specific language that creates this nightmare scenario for you, or give us the legal cites as I have asked for ....or stop flinging every thing you can get your mitts on to support your spurious claims and specious arguments.

Prove your claim or be silent.

At least you have brought your argument back to the real crux of the matter for you......the possibility that non white males might get preference over a white male. No bullshit about protecting the blacks or women.