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Was it the heavier focus on the actual story, the adventure of the episodes? The clever ideas? What makes you love the classic series? What is it that the new series is missing?

Now here's a post designed just to wind people up. Are you trying to start a war?

You can't answer a question like that because the premise is a false one.

I grew up with the classic series so this will always be mine, some others haven't even seen the classic series do who are any of us to say which is better? Besides both series have different era's now so for me there's an overlap. I'd watch any Nu-Who over the Sylvester McCoy era even though I'm a classic series boy.

The main difference is as you say the Classic series seems to be adventure led where the new series is character led. It all depends on which you prefer.

Decent plots and concepts for stories other than "Lets see what happens when we give the doctor a wife and then make him regenerate into a woman"
It wasn`t a soap opera aimed at idiots. They had a explanations for temporal phenomena other than "Timey wimey"

Let's see... nothing? Doctor Who wasn't consistently brilliant from 1963 to 1989 and the chances are that with all the changes it went through, it would have eventually become something like what it is now had it not been cancelled.

Decent plots and concepts for stories other than "Lets see what happens when we give the doctor a wife and then make him regenerate into a woman"
It wasn`t a soap opera aimed at idiots. They had a explanations for temporal phenomena other than "Timey wimey"

Exactly. While the new series isn't exactly awful, it does seem much more juvenile.

Now here's a post designed just to wind people up. Are you trying to start a war?

You can't answer a question like that because the premise is a false one.

I grew up with the classic series so this will always be mine, some others haven't even seen the classic series do who are any of us to say which is better? Besides both series have different era's now so for me there's an overlap. I'd watch any Nu-Who over the Sylvester McCoy era even though I'm a classic series boy.

The main difference is as you say the Classic series seems to be adventure led where the new series is character led. It all depends on which you prefer.

Fair enough. You're allowed an opinion. And no, this isn't designed to wind people up. I just wanted to highlight and expand on the aspects in which the classic series outshine NuWho.

Sigh. Contentious thread is contentious. If you're old enough to have enjoyed and preferred the Classic series first time around then you should be old and wise enough to know the difference between starting a good old fashioned debate that respects differing opinions and trying to shove your own small minded opinion down peoples throats by stating it as a fact when it is nothing of the sort.

I like the new Who and the 10th Doctor and 11th Doctor are two of my favorite Doctors, Donna is one of my favorite companions of all and I have certainly enjoyed any number of the new Who episodes. I do think, though, that the new Who has a few things about it that the Classic Who didn't have and which are something of a detriment to the new Who. Specifically:

1.) Romance/Crushes/Kissing between the Doctor and companion. In my opinion, this not only isn't necessary, it frequently hurts various characters and storylines. For example, I think Martha having a crush on the Doctor hurt her character, the storyline of the Doctor pining away for Rose and treating Martha badly hurt his character and together the two things hurt the Doctor/Martha episodes and they would have been a lot better without all that.

I also think the River character would have been much better without her romance with the Doctor which I don't think was very believable as it was pretty obvious that River loved the Doctor a lot more than the Doctor cared for her. In fact, I think the only thing that made that storyline even believable at all was the scene in "The Name of the Doctor" which I did find touching. Nevertheless, I think having River be this mysterious woman who showed up from time to time in the Doctor's life (and was not in love with him) would have been a lot better.

Regarding so many women kissing the Doctor, is the Doctor now an intergalactic James Bond? For that matter, is playing hard to get or waiting for the man to make the first move not an option for women in the new Who? In any case, the Doctor is supposed to be this centuries-old Time Lord alien from another planet, not just some human male but I think sometimes he ends up being portrayed like he is.

2.) Sexual innuendos/crude humor/profanity. While I understand we live in a cruder age (with the entertainment industry leading the way), I nevertheless feel it doesn't benefit the Doctor's character to have him swearing or commenting on his companions "tight skirt". And the less said about the Slitheen and their gas issues as well as the end of the episode "Love and Monsters" the better.

3.) Female companions/characters who have smug, "Aren't I wonderful" attitudes. This would include River, Lady Christina, Dalek Clara and Victorian Clara. Also, it's been a while since I've seen the Pompadour fireplace episode but I seem to recall she was the same way. In any case, such an attitude isn't that appealing and it's also getting old.

4.) Political correctness. I feel the new Who tries very hard to be politically correct and as someone who's generally tired of political correctness, I sometimes find it irritating in the new Who,

Speaking of kissing in the new Who, the Doctor himself has rarely been the one to take the initiative and kiss a woman romantically and has actually only kissed three women in a romantic way (that I can remember). In every other case, the women kissed him first or the kissing was for some other reason (like a genetic transfer). And the women that the Doctor kissed in a romantic way are:

-Astrid, after she has become a ghost

-Joan Redfern, when he wasn't in his right mind/not himself

-River, after she became an echo

Hmmmmm! If the show continues to go down the kissing road, it would at least be interesting to see the woman who the Doctor finally kisses when he is himself and the woman is an actual flesh-and-blood woman rather than a ghost/echo.

The way I see it it's like comparing Apples and Oranges - both a fruit that grows on trees and can be made into juice and I like them both but they do not produce a straight easy comparison.

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other about the romance angle. Sometimes it works - eg River and sometimes sometimes it's not so successful as with Martha. On the other hand some of the willful avoidance of it in the classic series comes across as a bit infantile. That Tegan never gives Five the once over? That he pointedly never touches any of the women? It's stilted and a bit unnatural.

As for political correctness - I'm getting sick of people complaining about it, there is a reason for it white men don't control the world anymore get over it get used to it. Personally I haven't seen anywhere its "gone mad".

2.) Sexual innuendos/crude humor/profanity. While I understand we live in a cruder age (with the entertainment industry leading the way), I nevertheless feel it doesn't benefit the Doctor's character to have him swearing or commenting on his companions "tight skirt". And the less said about the Slitheen and their gas issues as well as the end of the episode "Love and Monsters" the better

Dunno if they count, but the Virgin classic novels were far cruder than then anything new. The F word, sex scenes, Ace drinking like a sailor, the whole nine yards.

I have no idea where you get that. The 5th Doctor has put his hand on the small of Tegan's back, he's put his arm around her, he's touched her in other ways. He also touched Peri on more than one occasion. Certainly he isn't all over them the way the 11th Doctor is with Clara but as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing.

As for political correctness - I'm getting sick of people complaining about it, there is a reason for it white men don't control the world anymore get over it get used to it.

I'm actually a woman but I'll be glad to pass along your rude comment to the various white men I know for their edification.

Dunno if they count, but the Virgin classic novels were far cruder than then anything new. The F word, sex scenes, Ace drinking like a sailor, the whole nine yards.

Technically, the classic series won that one.

For myself, I don't consider the novels as canon or part of the classic series. I'm not surprised by the use of the "F" word though. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the "F" word is used in prime time television before too long.

I have no idea where you get that. The 5th Doctor has put his hand on the small of Tegan's back, he's put his arm around her, he's touched her in other ways. He also touched Peri on more than one occasion. Certainly he isn't all over them the way the 11th Doctor is with Clara but as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing.

I'm actually a woman but I'll be glad to pass along your rude comment to the various white men I know for their edification.

1) it's frequently commented on by the cast and crew that he wasn't allowed to touch them and how weird it made them feel.

2) I'm sorry you took that so harshly but I tend to find comments about political correctness like red rag to a bull as it's so often used to excuses some pretty crappy attitudes.

1) it's frequently commented on by the cast and crew that he wasn't allowed to touch them and how weird it made them feel.

That makes no sense to me since he does touch them and for that matter the 3rd Doctor was affectionate with both Jo and Sarah Jane. But whatever, I'm only going by what I see on the screen.

2) I'm sorry you took that so harshly but I tend to find comments about political correctness like red rag to a bull as it's so often used to excuses some pretty crappy attitudes.

I didn't take it "so harshly". You told me to "get over it" which I believe is a rude thing to say particularly since you don't even know me or anything about me. In any case, I have no intention or desire to get into an argument about political correctness. The original poster was asking for opinions about the classic show versus the new and I gave a few of my views on the matter including political correctness but that's all I have to say on that matter. Some people like political correctness, some people don't. So be it.

Was it the heavier focus on the actual story, the adventure of the episodes? The clever ideas? What makes you love the classic series? What is it that the new series is missing?

I like the Classic series, but its age really does show. The effects are usually terrible and the sets cheap (you can't blame them though and I think they did well on a small budget), but it also lacks any kind of emotional depth or dramatic writing.
Classic Who was all about the stories and adventures; it was rarely about the characters and their lives and feelings and it was rarely about giving a dramatic story. To me that's fine, but it isn't modern and all these aspects are present in every single modern television drama I have ever watched. Also, because I was born in 1995, modern television is pretty much all I know and what I'm used to so I am biased.

Still, at least I enjoy Classic Who and actively watch it. No-one else my age I know would be able to watch it without either laughing themselves to death or falling asleep due to boredom. I couple of my friends were surprised when I told them I was watching Classic Who. They were under the impression that the show was a joke which was universally acknowledged to be rubbish.

Classic Who is good in places, but it is too slow, plodding, and doesnt get to the point for ages. Plus it's dialouge feels delivery feels far too unengaged and actors sometimes don't convey (especially Pertwee) all of the interesting things going on to an eager audience, they just do that in a "matter of factly" way that doesnt instill excitement in a viewer.

Good when you're a kid and your attention span and sense of wonder is a bit better, but for a faster keener world who want to get things done, it's for real anoraks. New series is much pacier, fun, and lively.

I really enjoy the slower pace of the classic series. I much rather have slow pace than episodes with poor conclusions which happens a lot in the new series. The conclusion is the most important part of the episode in my opinion I do not like it that the doctor overuses the sonic screwdrivers and when there are conclusions as bad as Journey's End and Last of the Timelords.

I have used this forum far, far less frequently in recent months because I have found that I have very little positive to say about current DW. Since I've been back on this forum, I've stayed away from new series threads.

For me, it's a difference in the style of TV production. I watch a lot of old telly. Old telly accepted its limitations but gave its best shot. There was heart and soul in every wonky model shot or wobbly wall. Nowadays, mega-millions are thrown at the FX and it looks flawless and bland. Anyone could do it if they had the right compuiter programme. Taking the Ice Warrior out of its costume in The Cold War just gave a rubbishy CGI monster zipping around the place. Leaving it in its costume had a much greater feeling of power, and was so much more tangible.

Old telly is based in a theatrical background, as a lot of it was produced as-live on a three-walled set in a TV studio. They ahd to be realistic about what could be achieved under those circumstances. Now, it thinks it's a film. This goes for the whole of current telly not just DW. This is the mindset that doesn't cover up the double yellow lines on the road in Downton Abbey and says "we'll CGI over them later on", and then wonders why peope complain that double yellow lines can be seen. Just because mega-amazing technology is available, doesn't mean it's always right to use it.

My favourite C21st DW story is Midnight. Half a dozen people trapped in a room, arguign with each other. Thrilling, gripping. Characterisation is at the heart of good drama. Characters from C20th DW like Meg Seeley, Auntie Vanessa, Pat and Elizabeth Rawlinson, Arak and Etta ... each of them linger in the mind like old friends because they're so well drawn and easy for the audience to relate to. in current DW, people don't have conversations: they just chuck witty, whip-smart one-liners at each other.

Another issue with current DW is that many stories feature just a couple of speaking characters (normally a Goodie, a Baddie, a Henchman, and someone for the companion to explain the plot to while the Doctor does the adventuring). It feels underpopulated and cheap if there are no extras or supporting people around the place. With a rush to get through the story in 45mins, I suppose this is inevitable.

Meanwhile ... the companions conceive a child who is infected with the time vortex and so can regenerate and then marries the Doctor while trapped inside a spacesuit; meanwhile, the Doctor is a copy of himself, Amy is kidnapped during childbirth, Rory spends 2000 years as a Roman, Clara is inside the Doctor's mind and the Great Intelligence sends her through every moment of creation simultaneously, the Tardis explodes then becopmes a woman and marries the Doctor ... oh gimme a break.

I am less and less engaged with current DW because I find it (a) soulless, (b) self-important, and (c) smart-arsed. But so much current TV is like this! When I hear about a "season finale", I always wonder what happened to "the last episdoe of the series".

Over the last couple of years, I have been watching DW at some point in the week after its broadcast. I've not watched an episode "live" for a long time now, and I only ever watch each episode once. I am completely unfussed about the pompous and self-important looking 50th anniversary special (are the Doctor and Clara still inside the Doctor's mind? I can't really remember), and am thoroughly enjoying the DVD of Mind of Evil at the moment, on which the colour restoration is excellent.

As for political correctness - I'm getting sick of people complaining about it, there is a reason for it white men don't control the world anymore get over it get used to it. Personally I haven't seen anywhere its "gone mad".

While there are some unfortunate instances where freedom of speech is curtailed and common sense scrapped in favour of a culture of taking permanent offence at anything which doesnt fit an idividuals world view or rocks their delicate sensibilities- which is very annoying- you can also for the most part dismiss 'PC gone mad' as the battle cry/slobberous yawning of the kind of dinosaur who is jolly cross that they can't pat the arse of their secretary or have a good giggle at that 'shirtlifter' across the office or put on 'blackface' and do a 'hilarious' impression of one of those chaps from the colonies;.

It's like you say- boo hoo hoo- white middle class western men don't run 100% of everything anymore (dont worry though- its still something like 98%)

Doctor Who is not politically correct. It is inclusive, preaches tolerance and understanding and does not seek to marginalise other cultures or sexualities as different or 'other'. Which makes sense as in the Doctors world EVERYONE is this.

With regards to Eighties Who it was often accused of being pretty left wing and right on itself at times as has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere.

For me, it's a difference in the style of TV production. I watch a lot of old telly. Old telly accepted its limitations but gave its best shot. There was heart and soul in every wonky model shot or wobbly wall. Nowadays, mega-millions are thrown at the FX and it looks flawless and bland. Anyone could do it if they had the right compuiter programme. .

Among the many things I disagree with in your slightly revisionist 'On Golden Pond' hazy nostalgic glow of praise for Classic Who this is one of the most significant.

It is a common myth thrown around by people with little or no knowledge of special effects work or how it is done. Yes, technology has made ceratin things easier to do and given access to techniques to those with less money or good fortune to be directly involved in the industry.

But to say 'anyone could do it with the right computer program' is like saying 'Anyone could be Ray Harryhausen if you gave them a lump of plasticene and a stop motion camera'. It simply isnt true. To do it well still takes skill and artistry.

Which is why there has been so much shoddy CGI work in films in the last two decades and only a few that stand out. In a Big Budget sense you can look at the Phantom Menace (a terrible film) and still marvel at the visuals. And then at the other end of the scale you have someone like Gareth Edwards who made Monsters on a shoe string and through his computer in a way that wouldnt have been possible a few eyars ago. But they share one thing- talent. Hence why Gareth Roberts is now helming a big mega bucks Godzilla remake and The phantom Menace has better CGI from 1999 than some films from last year.

If you prefer your effects to look like The Green Death all the time then thats fine. But some of us want more. Old Who is a product of its time. It's plotting and structure and production values have no place on modern TV.

And alot of what you now celebrate with hindsight was pure accident and down to lack of budget and talent! Do you not think the writers and producers of Classic would have given their right arm to be able to place Tom Baker in a sequence like the Stone Henge gathering from The Pandorica Opens as opposed to battling modified oven gloves and bubblewrap beasties in between overly verbose passages of tedious exposition to fill up the bloated running times? Come now!

Some peoples relationship with Classic Who seems to be similar to mine with Panda Pops.

Fair enough. You're allowed an opinion. And no, this isn't designed to wind people up. I just wanted to highlight and expand on the aspects in which the classic series outshine NuWho.

I do think you were being inflammatory but congratulations it worked. To actually answer your question I have to ignore the Classic series from Trial of a Time Lord onwards because for me this is where the series became a joke.

The new series lacks the magic of the original and to try and make up for it, it trys to over complicate the script with a load of old mumbo jumbo. It's got away with it so far because the lead actors have been so good

When I was young I could actually believe that the Doctor could come along and take me away for a series adventures. I'm not a child anymore but if I were I think that not only would I not think this could happen (The Doctor does not travel with ordinary people anymore) but I don't think I'd want it to happen.

Given the choice between the two I would watch classic series any day of the week but for a series that lasted for 26 series you can find examples to prove the classic series to be the best programme ever and also the most embarrassing programme ever.

The main difference there being that I cannot see the new series lasting 26 years.