On 11/02/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:>WM---nice to see you can warm your self by the caldron , without taking>it toooooo seriously, dude---you're one of the few who are willing to consider>new views , without worrying about what some of 'the names' are going to>think about you.>Now , the journey from El Cap to Gilgamesh goes something like this :>>The bit on El Cap's Nose was ' The last pitch before the summit...With>nearly 3000 feet of exposure and some spectacular 5.12c face climbing over>a couple of overhanging bulges...' (roll-Doll Lynn Hill , 1994).>There were some bizarre 'rationales' going around circa 1980, in the valley,>as the 'super-dudes' fuelled their brains on the litt' of Carlos Casteneda>in particular.It was decided that over time , the piton scars on The Nose,(and>Astro'), would become big enuf to finger-lock , anyway , so why not speed>up the process 'a bit'.>Inventor-of-Frenz , RayJar' was frigging in the rigging , for many days>, bashing angle pitons backwards and forwards to create the 'chips' you>refer to. He and a swag of others still couldn't free the traverse , until>Lynn came along and took the honours (for the roof and the new face at>the top).>>Witch ,now, brings us to sunny Qld , Aus. : The 'Boona-bar-flies', usta>tell the tale of the first 'free' ascent of a certain route that was achieved>with 'jiggery-pokery' using a 'Sebco' hand drill :The crux of the route>was a smooth,3 metre section ,which would be an 'easy' grade 32 today .But>it was decided that the climbers of 2004 could go and %$&*@#. >2x5/16 holes were drilled , 1 cm apart, and the small piece of rock, between,>was knocked out ,creating a tiny finger-nail jug , just big enuf to allow>a shimmy sequence , high up to the next natural micro hold , and on to>glory.>This stuffs been going on since the sixties : John Ewbank circa 1968 :>"Chipping negates the challenges for future generations" ; "Too many bolts>reduces the climbing experience to just looking for the next bolt-head>" etc,etc,etc.>>GILGAMESH---a case for 'creative-enhancement' ? : Gilgamesh is still an>aid-route , but HB has come within a bees-dick of freeing it : that donga>might be the difference between grade 34 and grade 37. It would definitely>make a fantastic 'free-blast' but if it's Grade 37 ,then there's a few>options to consider : 1) Leave it for todays 10 year olds to eventually>free it; 2) Hope the Huber bros come for a visit and send it (without that>'poh' stuff) ; 3) Make one small chip;4) Glue on a small in-cut hold made>of local stone ;5) Bolt on a small gym-hold( with easy allen key removal>if it's too rad ); 6) Respect it as an aid route and try not to widen the>peg placements.(until 1 or 2 occur ).>Compared to what some 'shade-masters' have done , these options are relatively>mild,dude...

'...This has to be one of the best 'anti-lines'...Some interesting notes about the bolts.I added an extra bolt to the start ( in the corner ) as it was a large run-out ( and crux move ) to the original first bolt...'
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Why mess with the 'anti-line' character of the original style ?

'An extra bolt', in this case = a retro-bolt ( just when we thought the cauldron-flame had been re-located to Athens !!! )...

Surely '...a large run-out...' was an inte-gral part of the ' crux move '...

Why not just re-bolt the original bolt position...

Photos clearly show to everyone that it's quite a short route and also very top-rope-able... ; Many climbers would be more than ' comfortable ' ,( and respectful of), leading the route with the original bolt positions --- "Hey,dude---that's the nature of this beast---now here I go !! "

..apart from Mike Law himself has given me blanket permission to retro his climbs when i see fit. He admits he bolted things badly and has encouraged me to fix his mistakes. The fact the route has not had a second ascent (for 20 years) means it wasn't exatcly getting much traffic in its old state. If the route was one well travelled then I would have perhaps re-considered it. It was covered in thick moss and rusting away. If you deck trying to clip the second bolt you land on a spike of vertical rock from 6m up. Not exactly pretty! I do-not add new bolts to routes without permisison from the first ascentist.

ps.. there was evidence of two chopped carrot bolts below and above the second bolt. All of this info (and more) is contained in the Safer Cliffs report of the climb - which is available if you sign up to the forum with a real name Hexy-po!

Yep the bolting and grading of the thing was bolloxed from the start. Bolts primary purpose is safety - why then bolt the thing so it remains dangerous. If a first ascentionist is gonna bolt something really poorly, and undergrade it to buggery, then they are an absolute tossa in my book - obviously had in mind to scare the shite out of and potentially hurt someone attempting the route later - Mike perhaps aknowledges this now, and Neilo has only done good in this case

>If a first ascentionist is gonna ...undergrade>it to buggery, then they are an absolute tossa in my book - obviously had>in mind to scare the shite out of and potentially hurt someone attempting>the route later

Very interesting point you make here, Damo --- just what is this ' sand-bagging' thing all about ?! --- and why was it so prev-a-lent in the 70s/80s ?

a) as you suggest --- to scare the shite out of...
b) to potentially hurt someone --- un-likely... ( but Jon Muir once took a near ground fall,at Araps, when he rested on an RP which some one had placed in a crack,and recommended as a 'good' runner --- it had no copper on it---a knot had been tied in the wire , providing just enuf strength to hold,until...)
c) confuse/impress people who have locked into a beta-zone psych-up only to find...
d) 'modesty'...
e) any others ?--- comeon you sand-baggers---lets hear 'em ! --- while ya thinkin' , Kim Carrigan (1997), explains a more subtle/sinister scenario... :

'...Today I think there's a positive attitude towards climbing hard. People see someone like Garth as amazing. They aspire to climb that hard. Whereas then the pressure was towards being a bumbly. There were only a hand-ful of people motivated to climb hard grades: Moorhead, Roland Foster, a few others.
If you climbed 24,you became something of a target--- people would say : "wanker !---what do you want to do that for ?! --- What a waste of time ! ".It's a pretty different sort of attitude to now. So we had to try and achieve what we did with no support at all...

Hmmmmm --- very murky issue --- probably never been touched before cos everyone just thought it was just about ' a bit of fun '...(Mikl ?: "give it the lowest grade you can without laughing"...)

On 18/08/2004 Damietta wrote:>Yep the bolting and grading of the thing was bolloxed from the start. Bolts>primary purpose is safety - why then bolt the thing so it remains dangerous.>If a first ascentionist is gonna bolt something really poorly, and undergrade>it to buggery, then they are an absolute tossa in my book -

tossa -maybe.First ascentionist - defiantly.
Mikl did the route in the style of the day using the protection where he placed and presumably needed it. If the climb is to be 'improved' then the old 'rules' say that you do without one or more of the bolts and/or with fewer yo-yo's [ pts of aid?] The climb stands as a testament to the prowess of a true climbing legend and now, with the legends consent, none of us can measure ourselves against this twenty year old standard. I think replacing old for new is good.I'll even, with reservations, accept replacing crap with solid gear.but changing the route as completely as in this case i have to worry. sure mikls 'permission' is a solid argument, but isn't that a starting point not a conclusion? p.s I'd put chris shepard at the top of the 'tossa' list.his bolts are baaad man. and while i'm on a roll, the BEST thing about australian climbing for me when i first arrived here was the carrot bolt.sudddenly clipping the bolt had all the drama of placing gear. with the same nagging feeling that maybe it wasn't any good. am i the only advocate of this uniquely australian tradition?

I disagree, and think this is possibly a bit out of context. At about the time he went off overseas, was he feeling bitter and twisted? Tall poppy syndrome get to him??

I have never aspired to climb as hard as Garth & do not see him as a role model (or any other hard climber for that matter), and have never been talented enough to have pressure applied to me to conform to bumbly-ism. I stand in awe of their prowess / achievements though.
Undoubtedly he (KC) achieved what he did somewhat in a vacuum, since he WAS the cutting edge of the climbing game at the time.

As to this relating to sandbagging; … that may simply have been ‘oneupmanship’ (friendly rivalry?) amongst the elite at the time.

Tis interesting that it was prevalent at the same time that grades were pushing into the higher 20’s, but is less so now (than back then). Maybe real kudos starts at Gd 30 and since its blerrie hard anyway, then there is no point in sandbagging because it reduces the 1st ascentionists credibility?

>Hmmmmm --- very murky issue
Not as muddy as the track over on the topout/lower off thread!

Well for a start --- Grade 24 was circa 1975 ; Carrigan ' went over seas ' circa 1985
, so he was referring to the Golden Age when the grades were being pushed from 24 --->29+ --- a time when your average ' rock climber ' /critic of anything 'unconventional' was some blase,middle-class twat with tube-chooks jangling around their shins...

' friendly-rivalry ' --- yes defiantly, thats what I was getting at with category c)

On 19/08/2004 jon the pom wrote:>The climb stands as a testament to the>prowess of a true climbing legend and now, with the legends consent, none>of us can measure ourselves against this twenty year old standard.
Well put jon.

>but changing the route as completely as in this case i have to worry.
Spot on cobber!

>carrot bolt ... am i the only advocate of this uniquely australian tradition?
No, but the carrot bolters are largely a clandestine lot since the advent of SCV (etc) 'how to bolt police' ...

On 19/08/2004 HEX wrote:>when the grades were being pushed>from 24 --->29+ --- a time when your average ' rock climber ' /critic>of anything 'unconventional' was some blase,middle-class twat with tube-chooks>jangling around their shins...
Ahh, ye olde 'cadre of chooks'.
Named a 1st ascent of mine that once. The climb was never written up anyplace 'offal'. Its since been led again as a 1st by someone else and called something else....
Good luck to 'em, (snicker).

There are still a lot of >blase,middle-class twat critics
out there.
I dont remember them putting pressure on the elite to conform to bumblyism though. I think most folk were probably like me; way too impressed to take it seriously since we couldnt get up those grades anyway.
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H-T>--- SCV is a great organisation --- hands off !!!
Agreed.

The tsetse flies reckon that no more carrots should be put in. I'm with S Monks; lets celebrate the carrot I say ! Even some manky ones !!
Tell ya wot. If its the difference between a taxpayer funded rescue / chopper ride in a bodybag, or self rescue I'll be putting in a humble carrot if needs be !!!
__________________>Jealousy is an insidious lurking condition
I find it hard to understand how one can be jealous of something that one doesnt aspire to or (if realistic), admits to oneself that they are unlikely to ever achieve.
Cant speak for others though in my case I just switched to aid! (either that or give the game away altogether?)
__________>ensured that you have escaped
Thanks for the belay Hex.

>There are still a lot of >>blase,middle-class twat critics>out there. >I dont remember them putting pressure on the elite to conform to bumblyism>though. I think most folk were probably like me; way too impressed to take>it seriously since we couldnt get up those grades anyway.

Jealousy is an insidious lurking condition, behind many a smile ,A5 --- you should have(re)learnt that today !!!

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Relax a bit A5 --- ' The HEX ' has ensured that you have escaped annilation---> made it to safety ---> got you FUNctioning again via the thera-pu-tic waters of the cauldron--->and made sure you will live to etc,etc,etc another day...

> tossa -maybe.First ascentionist - defiantly.> Mikl did the route in the style of the day using the protection where>he placed and presumably needed it. If the climb is to be 'improved' then>the old 'rules' say that you do without one or more of the bolts and/or>with fewer yo-yo's [ pts of aid?] The climb stands as a testament to the>prowess of a true climbing legend and now, with the legends consent, none>of us can measure ourselves against this twenty year old standard.

I think this is a classic case of differing views based on when and where climbers come from. I don't bolt my own routes to become a "testament to the prowess of a true climbing legend". I bolt them so people can enjoy them with a moderate degree of safety. If people complain enough about something I have put up then I will go and fix it (add or reposition bolts). In my early days I bolted with a handrill and I was forced ot create run-out routes when i ran out of strength to keep hammering. Some of these runouts were stupid as I just got too tired to bolt the route correctly.I have returned to many of these and 'fixed them up'. I want people to do my climbs- not to stand in awe and let the moss takeover. The older generation did a lot of hard bold climbing which is great - but let our generation get on with the way we do things. Pain and Frequency was not being done by anyone and now that it has been re-bolted i know of several people interested in doing it. The move to the first bolt was not the crux - it is about grade 22. I am sure most would have stickclipped the high bolt anyway...

I am really getting to the point where i might just start chopping the manky bolts on three star classics and leaving someone else to add the new bolts. I might start with Seventh Pillar....

>and while i'm on a roll, the BEST thing about australian climbing for me>when i first arrived here was the carrot bolt.sudddenly clipping the bolt>had all the drama of placing gear. with the same nagging feeling that maybe>it wasn't any good. am i the only advocate of this uniquely australian>tradition?

SCV has placed hundreds of glue-in carrot bolts in Victoria. 99% of the replacement bolts in the slabby granite regions like the You Yangs, Black Hill, Buffalo, Warragul Rocks etc have been glue-in carrot bolts. Again - go and read the route database in the SCV page and you will see the facts. Pain and Frequency is a bloody hard vertical arete - the chance of hanging around to place keyhole hangers on this lead is almost nil.

On rare occasions I have replaced a carrot bolt with a ring - this usually happens when i run out of carrots in the field and have to use whatever i have left over to finish the job. If you die-hard tradder/carrot bolt lovers want to MAKE SURE i always have enough carrots to use then please consider buying and donating me some. That is the only way you can gurantee it will work. My money can only stretch so far...