Off Duty Cop Shoots Man In Bar.....

This is a discussion on Off Duty Cop Shoots Man In Bar..... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OldVet & Old School,
I agree that this is a learning forum and I am here not because I know it all, but to learn ...

I agree that this is a learning forum and I am here not because I know it all, but to learn with the rest of you all. I appreciate the ability to discuss these types of things as it could keep me or someone else out of jail.

To me, perspective is what I would like to discuss. Here is mine:

The OP stated that we should look at the question not from a LEO position. In my original post I stated that one of the options was to shoot the BG as he was shooting the first two. Imminent danger would have existed at that point and I would have been justified in shooting. If that was done the rest is not up for discussion. He is dead.

As I see the article, the BG was on his way out of the bar and not posing immediate danger to anyone else. The LEO was justified, and probably obligated to challenge the BG to stop. He identified himself as LEO and after doing so the BG turned and fired. IMO if there were no challenge there would have been no additional shooting. IMO and that is exactly what it is OPINION.

Had my choice been not to enguage immediately, and me not being a LEO I would have not called out to "Stop in the name of the LAW" he would have left the building without additional people being hurt. That being the case imminent danger would have ceased.

When did imminent danger cease is the real question. If your opinion is that once imminent danger existed it continued throughout the entire incident then you would be justified in shooting. I took it differently. That may be because I used to work in the court system and had many instances where there was a challenge as to the cessation of imminent danger. In Florida I might add.

I have no issue with your position whatsoever. I just took it a little more cautious path.

I also have no problem being wrong. In my nearly 60 years I have been wrong many times and, by God's grace, will be wrong many times in the future. I welcome discussions like this and hope to have many more in the future.

Thank you for not taking the road that many do and belittle someone because they take a different position that you. I appreciate that.

im gonna agree with tomtsr on this one, there is a threat to others, if i am on duty working my security job, i order him to drop it, he turns around and brings his weapon to bear i drop him, if im not working, im not engaging unless he is shooting at me. Even then if i can run out of the bar without being shot, or if i feel like he is not about to turn and shoot me, i do not drop him, i carry to protect myself and my family only. At work, different story, off work, me and mine come first

I don't go to bars, for this this reason. So i can't really say what I'd do because you won't ever see me in a bar. Bars are places people go to drink and get drunk. People who have been drinking and are drunk tend to lose the ability to think rationally. People who do not think rationally tend to do stupid and violent things. I try very hard to avoid people who do not think rationally and do stupid things that would require them to be shot.

Exactly my reasoning for avoiding bars. That and I'm required to be unarmed in a bar, which is a double-whammy. It's a lose-lose environment.

Thanks for the insightful replies folks.My bar hopping days have been over for a long time. Dinner and a cocktail in a nice restaurant are my speed now. With more states allowing carry in bars this type of incident may become more prevalent. I hope that is not the case. There is a post in Law-enforcement, Military and Homeland Security of an off duty cop trying to intervene in a bar fight and being paralized. Not much good comes out of bars.

In the State of Florida deadly force can be used if you or someone else is in eminate, immediate danger of death or great bodily harm.That was the case in this particular senario. That being said, any self defense shooting is going to involve courts and attorneys and legal decisions and possible law suits and this is for a justified shooting. Just some thoughts.

Sad but true................. Not a LEO you should be calling 911 as you remove yourself from the situation.

I don't go to bars, for this this reason. So i can't really say what I'd do because you won't ever see me in a bar. Bars are places people go to drink and get drunk. People who have been drinking and are drunk tend to lose the ability to think rationally. People who do not think rationally tend to do stupid and violent things. I try very hard to avoid people who do not think rationally and do stupid things that would require them to be shot.

Doesn't matter.

This could have literally occurred anywhere at any time to anyone.
Shootings by nutball dads at kid sporting events...Persons angry with snow plow drivers because they plowed snow too close to their car...Folks fighting in Target with a running gun battle inside the store as adults overbuying their child a copy of the last in stock XBOX game on the shelf.

Real world items that have happened last year in 2010 alone, and were featured here at DC.com in the GBU sub-area.
No bar nor alcohol required.

It seems pretty clear that LEO may be able to walk away from this shooting without being charged.

I have a feeling that any NON-LEO involved in the exact same scenario has a lengthy and expensive trial ahead of them.

In Nebraska we can't carry into a regular bar (majority profits coming from alcohol not food) so I wouldn't be armed anyway. Even if it wasn't a bar and I had my pistol unless the event is directly going to involve me I probably wouldn't get involved. Especially if he is leaving, it's a problem for the cops to deal with.

The ADW/murder is over unless he attempts to shoot someone else, all that remains is the apprehension.
Unlikely, as I don't frequent bars, but if I was there. Get to cover or out of his line of vision, if he tries to shoot anyone else, shoot him. If not, even though I could by my states statutes arrest him, get a good description, maybe peek out to door for a vehicle description. I'm retired, prevention..yes, apprehension most times...no.

Since I am not a LEO, my option would be to be a good witness. That being said, my hand would be on my gun, and if the BG showed any indication of coming back to finish what he starte, I would do what was needed to defend myself.

I think specifying "bar" was a bad idea (and I'm not going to be in one to start with).

Now, some place else, I'm on the floor or out the door. If on the floor, I'm watching to see what he does with hand on gun. If he turns like he is going to start shooting the place up and I have a shot, I'm taking it. If he starts random executions, I'm taking the best shot I can find.

1-2 am in a bar in PHILLY, Guns, BOOZE, attitudes and personalities... It just not a good environment... right... wrong... policemen... civilian... when all these variables are put together, its like sleeping with a rattle snake. I'm not going to get into right and wrongs, but i always try to control my environments...

Yes they said that it appeared that the BG was turning to leave the building, but he wasn't out, he could have ust as easily turned around without the officer calling out to him. He could also be going out to his car for another gun and more ammo. I think we could possible assume that the two guys he already shot had friends there at the bar. How many people go to a bar alone and sit there alone?
If the friends had tried to intervene there would have been many more people shot. I know thats a lot of what if's but they are things to consider.

I do also agree with Janq that if I was going to draw on this guy I am not giving him a warning. As the article said the BG took a shot at the officer. I am not going to give him a chance to send a little lead pill my way.

We can't carry into a bar in FL, but not much good happens in bars after evening hours anyway.

This dirtbag...According to court records, Rose was awaiting trial on charges of aggravated assault, recklessly endangering another person, and resisting arrest in connection with an arrest last May.
He had also been sentenced to one to two years in prison after pleading guilty to robbery in Philadelphia Common Pleas Court in 2007....was just a repeat offender, looking for a place to become a dead offender...glad he found his place.