Someone could've intervened much quicker if he only had a knife available.

Not only that with a knife I'm having to stab said person multiple times and again with the gun I could kill instantly.

Look I'm not saying ban every damned gun in America, but handguns REALLY man get serious those things only used to kill. If you a rifle to go hunting with I'm cool with that we even got them in our house hell even a shotgun, but handgun?

Not all maniacs have the know-how for these types of things. Plus, they're far more difficult to control whereas with a gun you aim and shoot for the kill.

Who knows how the situation would have ended if the shooter didn't have any guns available.

No.

Components to make a molotv $#@!tail type explosive:

rags/fabric, glass containers, flammable liquid/substance, a flame of some kind.

Pretty straightforward. As to use, just light and throw.

Funny how you bring up the ease of use of guns.

You heard about the shooting in an Oregon mall a few days ago?

The guy had an AR-15 rifle with high capacity mags (100+ rounds, iirc). With such a potent weapon he only killed 2 people before shooting himself.

Originally Posted by Arimax

I've seen those knifes, but can you get them locally or does it take a little more to get them?

You can buy a machete in walmart. It isn't difficult to get most kinds of weapons, legally or illegally.

Originally Posted by Wrath

Exactly.

Someone could've intervened much quicker if he only had a knife available.

Not necessarily true.

A knife is a close quarters weapon, much harder to disarm a person with a knife up close if they know what they are doing.

Also most knife wounds tend to be more serious than gunshot wounds.

Originally Posted by Arimax

Not only that with a knife I'm having to stab said person multiple times and again with the gun I could kill instantly.

Look I'm not saying ban every damned gun in America, but handguns REALLY man get serious those things only used to kill. If you a rifle to go hunting with I'm cool with that we even got them in our house hell even a shotgun, but handgun?

No, you only need to know the weak points and you can make 1 cut and kill a person.

You can shoot a person multiple times in the wrong areas and they will still survive.

It's a gray area. In a general scenario a gun is more dangerous than a knife. However, again, I need to stress that the weapon isn't the issue here. Even if you were somehow able to remove weapons entirely, even from the criminals, you'll still have the causes for the the person's aggression, and people will be hurt or killed regardless. A gun is simply the easiest way to complete the job, but besides that what way is there? Makeshifts bombs you can Google the recipe for? Using a car and driving over people? Stabbings? Again, we need to look at the root of the issue and consider all the variables that lead to these sort of outcomes.

Yet if I had a gun with 60 rounds inside I could have killed 30-40 people in a few seconds(aiming properly) VS THAT ONE KNIFE.

Aiming properly, yes. Like how if you were to aim properly with a knife and drive the damn thing into someone's heart that you would then kill them. Or if you were to properly aim your vehicle towards a crowd of people that it would most likely kill them. Again, should said items (including guns) be outlawed? No.

It's a gray area. In a general scenario a gun is more dangerous than a knife. However, again, I need to stress that the weapon isn't the issue here. Even if you were somehow able to remove weapons entirely, even from the criminals, you'll still have the causes for the the person's aggression, and people will be hurt or killed regardless. A gun is simply the easiest way to complete the job, but besides that what way is there? Makeshifts bombs you can Google the recipe for? Using a car and driving over people? Stabbings? Again, we need to look at the root of the issue and consider all the variables that lead to these sort of outcomes.

Not to double post, but that is something I'm willing to do. I do agree with you.

You people really think with "harsher gun laws or banning them" that these people would magicly not be able to get guns to do this? If people want it they will get it. Look at drugs. They are illegal, they are banned yet I can walk a mile to a dealer and buy some. The same thing applies to guns and only joe citizen will suffer when a robber breaks into his house with a gun and joe has nothing because guns are illegal.

just going to throw this out there: last time we tried to heavily restrict\ban items for "the public good" resulted in the Prohibition Gangland era and the current drug war that is completely useless and insanely expensive.

Studies show that a reduction in weapons does not decrease crime. In fact it slightly increases it. I'll give you a taste of this:

short answer: "Gun control is counter productive". Blaming the problems of society on an inanimate object is nonsensical. Do you blame cars when people do hit and runs? Or use them for criminal activity? Do you know that exponentially more people die per year at the hands of doctors, or through the use of cars, than firearms?

Does a spoon make people fat? Or a bag of chips?

A real example of a gun control utopia would be the UK or other European countries- that still retain exceptionally high crime rates. In particular the UK has FAR more break ins, muggings and violent crime than the US does.

We have 88 guns per 100 people here in the US. Yet in spite of this, gun crime is actually quite scarce.

A school gets shot up by a nut job. Why are we not talking about the pressures on male youth which impel them to commit violent actions? Why are we shifting the dialogue towards the instruments of the act, and not the factors which pushed the mind to go there?

Why are men killing themselves on a 4:1 ratio to women? Why are they suffering from larger levels of depression? Why are they dropping out of college in large numbers (women have the majority now)? Why do they die 7 years before women due on average? That there are so many men in jail...

These are not unrelated bits of trivia. There is something very wrong in the West with our young men- these extreme acts of violence are just yet another symptom.

Those who oppose gun ownership are well intentioned, but misinformed. The facts do not support their position (see the study, and many like it, above), in spite of how common sense their response might seem on the surface. In truth, by placing the blame on the accessibility of weapons is doing a disservice to the real problem and the lives lost.

Why did he do this? How did his parents and friends(?) miss the signs? How come he was not stopped until it was too late?

Every one of the largest gun massacres in the US took place in a gun free zone. Dwell on that.

just going to throw this out there: last time we tried to heavily restrict\ban items for "the public good" resulted in the Prohibition Gangland era and the current drug war that is completely useless and insanely expensive.

Studies show that a reduction in weapons does not decrease crime. In fact it slightly increases it. I'll give you a taste of this:

short answer: "Gun control is counter productive". Blaming the problems of society on an inanimate object is nonsensical. Do you blame cars when people do hit and runs? Or use them for criminal activity? Do you know that exponentially more people die per year at the hands of doctors, or through the use of cars, than firearms?

Does a spoon make people fat? Or a bag of chips?

A real example of a gun control utopia would be the UK or other European countries- that still retain exceptionally high crime rates. In particular the UK has FAR more break ins, muggings and violent crime than the US does.

We have 88 guns per 100 people here in the US. Yet in spite of this, gun crime is actually quite scarce.

A school gets shot up by a nut job. Why are we not talking about the pressures on male youth which impel them to commit violent actions? Why are we shifting the dialogue towards the instruments of the act, and not the factors which pushed the mind to go there?

Why are men killing themselves on a 4:1 ratio to women? Why are they suffering from larger levels of depression? Why are they dropping out of college in large numbers (women have the majority now)? Why do they die 7 years before women due on average? That there are so many men in jail...

These are not unrelated bits of trivia. There is something very wrong in the West with our young men- these extreme acts of violence are just yet another symptom.

Damn just some of the saddest news i have ever heard just been reading some more on it and as a father im really cut up at the moment. All i can say about the gun vs knives thing is yeah if this guy had no gun a lot fewer children may have died today. We will never know the damage has been done.

It's a gray area. In a general scenario a gun is more dangerous than a knife. However, again, I need to stress that the weapon isn't the issue here. Even if you were somehow able to remove weapons entirely, even from the criminals, you'll still have the causes for the the person's aggression, and people will be hurt or killed regardless. A gun is simply the easiest way to complete the job, but besides that what way is there? Makeshifts bombs you can Google the recipe for? Using a car and driving over people? Stabbings? Again, we need to look at the root of the issue and consider all the variables that lead to these sort of outcomes.

That's the problem. People are too focused on the means (often guns) rather than the cause. Guns are a convenient scapegoat.

Originally Posted by keefy

I know a guy that been stabbed int he lung and he lived.

Many people have been shot many times (with various calibers of ammunition) and survived. Every person is different.

A person could die from a non CNS wound by a .22lr cartridge. Meanwhile a person could take a 12gauge slug to the chest and survive.

Originally Posted by Arimax

Yet the components to open fire and kill someone point and shoot most of the time.

Again with the knife maybe that might be true, but you'll have better chance of disarming a person with the knife vs. the gun.

Also without the guns probably wouldn't be 27 people dead, but again we don't know how that would work out.

No, you could distract a person with a gun and disarm them. It is much harder to disarm somebody with a knife and avoid injury.

You can easily kill hundreds with improvised explosive/incendiary devices.

Originally Posted by keefy

All at once?

Its all situational some people are bad shots. And some people get nails, knives bullets in their brain and live.

This is my kids last day in school. They will be home schooled from here on out. My wife was in class in 1995 when a suspended boy came in and started shooting people. She's literally in tears right now. These poor kids and families.

I think you are exagerating. I am pretty sure that such things can only happen in countries like America, in Switzerland such people wouldnt even have weapons.

Anybody stopped and wondered what sort of state of mind an individual has to be in to do this?
It is one thing, to take a gun and do something in the heat of the moment, and in that sort of situation, talk about gun control all you want. Its probably not a wise thing for people to have access to guns based on their emotions.

But this goes beyond gun control.

This goes to mind of someone who clinically killed his father before driving to the school to continue killing.

This person has a mind that has been emotionally disconnected from his family, and from society. NO amount of gun control is going to stop this person form acting the way he did. Regardless of how many he killed, with a knife or a gun, or explosives this individual was out to hurt. No I am not a fan of the fact that the tools at his disposal were readily available, but this does not mean that this individual was any less likely to do this.

Tell you what. Not nearly as many children would have died if all he had available were knives, etc.

Guns are just too dangerous because all you have to do is pull a trigger.

You have no actual information to back this up. Its just another "no guns is better" bs.

Originally Posted by Arimax

I know there are a few people that will get access to guns no matter what, but that's the thing a few or maybe I could upgrade that to some.

At the same token you take a lot of guns off the streets it makes black market or whomever is selling prices skyrocket.

Some of these guys like the guy over in Colorado were just plain nuts and probably wasn't nothing to be done for them at all. I do know there are people who own guns on this forum, but even they got to admit this was just plain idiotic.

Studies have shown that places with less guns, have more violent crimes.

Originally Posted by Wrath

Then tell me why the very similar Chinese incident "only" caused injuries whereas the American shooting literally took 27 lives. Coincidence? I don't think so.

In both cases there was a mentally unstable person at work.

What does the Chinese incident have in common with a bunch of kids being killed?

Originally Posted by Arimax

Yet the components to open fire and kill someone point and shoot most of the time.

Again with the knife maybe that might be true, but you'll have better chance of disarming a person with the knife vs. the gun.

Also without the guns probably wouldn't be 27 people dead, but again we don't know how that would work out.

Again with the "without guns". How do you get rid of guns? Just get rid of all guns everyone in the USA? Some people just don't make sense whatsoever in this regard.

Originally Posted by Cybertox

I think you are exagerating. I am pretty sure that such things can only happen in countries like America, in Switzerland such people wouldnt even have weapons.

And by the way Switzerland is one of the most heavily armed countries on the planet.

The link you posted has absolutely nothing to do with Switzerland. There was a similar try in a high school in Switzerland. Three armed teenagers wanted to make a massacre in a high school. As they were on the way to school the police got somehow already alerted by a patrooling car. As those guys entered the school a special police force already got them. Those guys had 3 pistols and a knive, if that would have happened in america those guys would have shotguns and assault rifles and the number of casualties would be around 40.

Tragic news this morning.
There is no easy solution for these kinds of tragic events that are happening more and more in our country. I like many don't blame guns for the actions of these criminals, but I hope we can come together and work a possible solution to these heinous acts against our innocent people.

Tragic news this morning.
There is no easy solution for these kinds of tragic events that are happening more and more in our country. I like many don't blame guns for the actions of these criminals, but I hope we can come together and work a possible solution to these heinous acts against our innocent people.

These people are not criminals. Insane people cannot be criminals.
There is something deeper going on in the mind of these people, and it appears to be a product of the society around them.
We are all a product of the society in which we are bought up in, our circumstances go straight to the core of our values and our mental state of well being.

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