My hat is truly off to the rescuers & all personnel involved in the rescue effort. Talk about high stakes, high stress.

Planning possibilities always seems easier when your not involved. My initial thoughts were "can't they just hose oxygen into there steadily, deploy a guide rope with some lights on it, and relay them out from one diver to another?" But then I realized if it were that easy, they probably would have done that already. And then I learned more details about the situation.

Elon Musk is an idiot and, clearly, has never dived in a cave either. If you're having to squeeze sideways through two pieces of solid rock to move forward, in the dark at depth and under water, how will a sub get through?

This operation will be more difficult to complete without significant casualties than, say, Apollo 13. At least Lovell & Co. had access to air.

Gawd bless 'em... all

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"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

My hat is truly off to the rescuers & all personnel involved in the rescue effort. Talk about high stakes, high stress.

Planning possibilities always seems easier when your not involved. My initial thoughts were "can't they just hose oxygen into there steadily, deploy a guide rope with some lights on it, and relay them out from one diver to another?" But then I realized if it were that easy, they probably would have done that already. And then I learned more details about the situation.

Regardless of the outcome, I think we need to recognize how hard these guys are working & how difficult of a job the leadership/rescuers have. Sincere prayers coming from this end.

Agreed. I can't even wrap my head around the kinds of constraints they must be facing. When I heard about how they had to take their oxygen tank off in some places to squeeze through, just madness... I'm a strong swimmer and I got all f**ked up breathing through a snorkel on on a damn pleasure voyage... I'd be sick thinking about doing what they are about to do. I certainly can't imagine a 12 year old that can't swim / scuba dive doing it.

Paying attention to all this with bated breath.

And to the divers that are about to attempt whatever the hell they are going to attempt... no words for it.

1. I think he’s brilliant2. You obviously didn’t read anything that Elon Musk tweeted about rescue methods. (Hint - he made it very clear that he did not literally mean a submarine. 3. Apparently the final product ended up being a sort of body bag made by a company called Wing Inflatables:

Take this BBC report at the time. 2 options. Teaching the kids how to dive or waiting out for four months.

The BBC quoted the Thai military.

Not fake news nor opinion. Just the options that were presented. As things develop option can either become limited or impossible.

Just like COAs. You look at them then you pick one.

Yup. The story was true at the time. They were debating whether it was too dangerous to teach the kids how to dive, and if that's what they decided, they "could " have been stuck in the cave for months.

On seeing the topic title I was somewhat optimistic that a discussion about the use of "fake news et al" in threads would be forthcoming but then was deflated when I saw the story that was presented as the example. While some media outlets undoubtedly presented the trapped kids in a cave story with as much hype as possible (after all, their business is to get as many eyeballs on them IOT increase revenue) most reported the facts as known or according to information released by authorities. Their analyses (including that by "experts") mostly stayed in their lanes.

As to the variance between what was initially reported as the likely time before final rescue and when they actually were brought to the surface, probably the best and most recent similar example would be the Chilean miners. They were trapped on 5 Aug 2010, contact made on 22 Aug and shortly after drilling of a rescue bore began (30 Aug) the "optimistic" opinion of those advising the government was that it could take up to four months to get them out. The miners were extracted just shy of a month and a half later (13 Oct). Was the government (and their experts) being cautious in using such a generous timeline. Of course, but other than when announcing what something would cost when has a government ever deliberately set itself up to not make a deadline when lives are at stake.

So, again, the headline: Was it Fake News or Alternative Facts or what we used to call Sensationalism? Like any other Daily Mail headline? Or was it just what we occasionally refer to as Opinion?

Headline? Or the topic title made up by the OP for that particular thread? If you clicked the link to the BBC article that the poster had in the initial post the headline was "Thailand cave: 'Zero risks' to be taken in rescue of boys" . So whose sensationalism, opinion or alternative facts are you questioning? The media, the government (or other group) or forum members who post it here? In this instance, I see none at fault. Now. if this thread dealt with subjects much more commonly posted in the political threads and well opined about, then yeah, there is more than enough being spread about and fertilizing unproductive fields (and minds).

« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 15:53:57 by Blackadder1916 »

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Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

The story broke on July 3, the day the team was found having been lost for 9 days.

The rescue was completed on July 10, a week after the team was located and 16 days after getting lost.

So, again, the headline: Was it Fake News or Alternative Facts or what we used to call Sensationalism? Like any other Daily Mail headline? Or was it just what we occasionally refer to as Opinion?

My money is on Opinion. Speculation based on available information and personal filters.

Chris,

The title is paraphrased (pulled really) right in the article I posted.

Quote

Earlier, the Thai military said the boys would need to learn to dive - or wait up to four months for flooding to recede before they could get out of the caves,

Multiple news agencies reported the same thing.

To me the the kids possibly being stuck in the cave for four months was the most significant aspect of the story so that's why I used it as a title. If it was speculation or opinion then it's from rescue workers and Thai Navy divers on scene, not me.

They were still talking about the kids staying down there for months 2 days before the first boy was pulled out.

4 months in the cave was likely the probable COA, however on completing some version of mission analysis, they realized the habitability of the cave was decreasing faster then allowable in the circumstances.

I'm pretty certain I read somewhere in the myriad of articles published that some unseasonably good weather arose and coupled with concerns about livability in the cave, the command team decided it was worth trying now. The other COA may have burned itself out once more information came to light about conditions in the cave.

"Gain and maintain the initiative" is a *principle of battle is it not? It looks like they were able to make the call and the worlds collective hindsight will likely prove it to be the correct call at the time.

*Note: I'm probably calling it the wrong thing. Please correct me if my terminology is wrong or out of date.

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I will be seen and not heard... I will be seen and not heard... I will be seen and not heard...