Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: what role does dodecatamoiria and moiria play in Hellenistic

Hi,everyone in this forum.
According to Hellenistic Astrology,if natal planetary configuration represents one's potential or one's due and lots represent one's fortune or represent whether one can realize his potential.And according to mordern Hellenistic Astrologers, dodecatamoiria represents the final outcome.
Then my question is what role does dodecatamoiria and moiria play in Hellenistic Astrology?Should we use both dodecatamoiria systems(12th/13th) or maybe one system is wrong.And how we use?Should we use every planets' dodecatamoiria to create a new chart or should we analysis them in natal chart?And what about moiria?Does it represent one's fate?
English is not my first language.If there is any mistake in this post or my post makes you unpleasant,please forgive me.

Interesting question. I have obviously read about dodecatamoiria in texts like that of Firmicus Maternus. I am also aware it has a Mesopotamian origin. However, I haven't personally worked with them. Hopefully someone well versed in hellenistic technique here such as Steven Birchfield will find the time to respond to you at some point.

This is slightly peripheral to your question on the dodecatamoiria but I just wanted to highlight a thread on the monomoiria I opened here about 18 months ago. There were a lot of helpful responses from other members here.

Although by no means a "Hellenist" in astrological matters, I use Pauline dodekatemorion (x13) extensively (see some of my postings, eg the Haiti earthquake entry on the mundane forum) Use of Dodek analysis has been traced back to 500 BC (Babylon) I consider dodeks indicative of underlying influences, and that they represent "ramifications"; to me they are of great importance. I apply dodeks not only to planets, but also (depending upon the circusmstances) to asc degree, mc degree, Lunar nodes, and Lots/Parts degrees. I have been experimenting with monomorions-they seem also to reveal subtle connections of significant value.

I do not use the dodeks to set-up a new chart, but as an analytical tool for all charts (natal, progressed, horary, mundane, katarchic) In addition to dodeks I also use the Manilius decans, and the duodenaries (1/12ths of signs), for additional insights (and of course, extensive use of Lots/Parts and stars) At the same time, I (personally) do not use terms, bounds, nor do I pay (much) attention to mutual reception; I also have my own unique way of estimating relative planetary dignity/debility (Note: all of these personal practices of mine are open to a variety of objections from both Hellenistic and Traditionalist philosophies: when I post examples of my practices, I do so only for the curiosity of Skyscript members, not as suggestive of what they should do-or even consider doing-in their own practices!)

Should we use both dodecatamoiria systems (12th/13th) or maybe one system is wrong. And how we use?

It is my opinion (my conjecture only!) than there is only one version of duodekatemoria and I think that with multiplication by 12 or 13 gives rise to the “mistake”.

I think the ancient Hellenistic Astrologers meant to subdivide the signs into 12 segments (and not 13). Why 12? Simply because the whole zodiac has 12 signs of equal sizes, it seems logical for the Greeks (who loved geometry, symmetry, etc.) to further subdivide the signs into 12 equal segments too.

If the 12th division of the zodiac has 30 equal portions (that we call degrees), then 12 equal segments of one sign would have 2.5 degrees for each portion (each is then called a duodekatemorion which simply means 1/12th of a sign). The first duodekatemorion will have the same sign as the sign itself and the following sign (according to zodiacal order) will take up the next duodekatemorion and so on and so forth.

I think we may have a confusion over terms here: Astrojin is absolutely correct in his description of sign 1/12ths: they are 2.5 degrees each, and they do start with the sign itself. Greek term for the 1/12th division of a sign is dodekatemorion (Vedic astrology refers to these 2.5 degree divisions as dwadashama's; certain modern astrologers refer to them as "dwads" or "duads"-see for example the "Decans + Dwads" thread on the Astro.com Forum under "Other Branches of Astrology")

However, there was a special TECHNIQUE used by such as Firmicus Maternus and Paulus of Alexandria which was also called "dodekatemorion", which was applied not to divisions of signs, but instead to determine a degree-point calculated from the original degree point of a planet (or angle, cusp, Lot, etc). This technique is different than 1/12th sign division. There were 2 such ancient techniques:

A) The "By 12" technique (Valens, Maternus, etc):

degree (of the sign) in which (lets say) a planet is posited, multiplied by 12, then subtracting 30 degrees for each forward sign from the result (counting the sign the planet is posited in as the first 30 degrees to be subtracted)

Example:
Moon posited at 11 degrees Pisces. What is its "By 12" dodek?

degree (of the sign) in which (lets say) a planet is posited, multipled by 13, then subtracting 30 degrees for each forward sign from the result (counting the sign the planet is posited in as the first 30 degrees to be subtracted)

Example:
Mars posited at 26 degrees Scorpio. What is its Pauline dodek?

This is why-to avoid confusion of term meanings-I use the word "duodenary" for sign 1/12ths, and the words "Pauline dodekatemorion" (which I usually abbreviate as "PD") when I am referring to the technique described above.
(PS: I only use the Pauline dodek technique as described above)

The 13th part is symbolic of the Sun / Moon synodic cycle. This is because in the time it takes for Moon to come back to the same degree a month later, the Sun has moved forward one sign, so the Moon has to go through a 13th sign to reach conjunction with the Sun again. Both types of twelfth parts are reflective of the idea of having some part reflected within the whole and the whole reflected within the part. Hint: the lights are said to represent "one's all" in Valens (or "the whole"). Bonatti says that the Sun has power akin to being in one's own bounds in the Solar half of the zodiac (Leo - Capricorn) and the Moon has the same (Aquarius - Cancer). This is a clue that you are dealing with something that has a nature contrary to the nature of an arabic part (or allotment). Robert Schmidt has some theories about the reasons for these and what they represent based upon Platonic metaphysics._________________Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

I concur with dr. farr's response. I am aware of the dodeks (multiply 12 and 13) outlined by Firmicus/Valdens and Paul of Alexandria but these dodeks are not discussed in detail by those authors (I mean the delineation part - not that the 12th division dodek is discussed!). I am not comfortable using these multiplication dodeks because
1) I cannot relate to the multiplication by 12 and 13 (I mean, I can't find the theoretical reason to multiply anything by anything except in harmonics astrology but that's modern

2) If I were to use any of these 2 multiplication dodeks, I do not have a good reason to prefer one to the other.

To dr. farr:
Why do you prefer Pauline dodek? Have you discovered the subtle differences between Firmicus/Valens and Pauline dodeks?

In the Paulus book "Late Classical Astrology" (pages 40-41 and pages 99-103) Paulus gives his reasoning for multiplying by a factor of 13 rather than by 12. He also gives the purpose of using the dodeks-ie, to gain additional insight regarding celestial factors influencing a planet (or Lot, etc) When I read this material several years ago, I was impressed by his reasons (and I did notice that these ancient concepts were actually similar in essence to modern ideas regarding harmonics); I tried out this technique and found it to be highly revealing (for me) in actual practice. Since then I have extensively applied the Pauline dodek technique in astro-analysis, having found it to be particularly valuable in my field of astro-therapeutics.

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