00:04:26 sldb-print-condition is defined in the keymap but not implemented
00:05:06 in sldb, what's the easiest way to evaluate code that can reference the condition?
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00:19:27 i sometimes accidentally write #'lisp while trying to enter the channel, that is not good :)
00:19:30 is there a less colon'ey way to write (sb-bsd-sockets::errno e) ?
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00:23:55 Whoa! Lamkins is accusing lispmeister of stiffing him on his royalties.
00:24:02 On the front page of proggit.
00:24:06 *Xach* saw that and wondered what was going on
00:24:33 gigamonkey: thankyouverymuch for leaving PCL online. my hardcopy is in storage but it's great to have it for reference
00:24:36 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has joined #lisp
00:25:07 lukego: No problem. Enjoy.
00:26:04 Though the ultra-correct behavior is to buy a new copy in each town you visit and then leave them in your hotel nightstand. Sort of like the Gideons.
00:26:20 The Margolins
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00:28:18 *gigamonkey* is sitting around waiting for *his* late royalty check. Hoping it's not a Lisp-publisher conspiracy.
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00:31:38 lol
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00:48:52 gigamonkey, I can't get it any regular book store in Sweden; only online.
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00:54:34 (alas.)
00:55:27 tic: Hmmm. How about Coders at Work?
00:55:34 (If you've noticed.)
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00:56:30 gigamonkey, neither, IIRC. Then again, the book stores that would typically carry these sorts of books don't have very much beyond your average "Learn C# in 24h", plus some stray O'Reilly books. I only order books from [Swedish] online bookstores.
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01:02:13 gigamonkey: Coders at work is available for the Kindle, I was surprised to see.
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01:04:13 Woah, and at 50% of the paperback price. Nice.
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01:04:56 but not available for /my/ ereader. :-|
01:05:23 I bought the wife a Kindle for Christmas. But now I want one too.
01:05:47 Nope, nothing at the Reader Store.
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01:06:58 CoW is probably a good purchase for me to test DRM stripping with. If it works, I might actually start buying Kindle books.
01:07:43 If it doesn't work, at least some of my money went to gigamonkey, and I can continue cursing Amazon.
01:07:49 wanna strip the book and send me a copy of it? I can tweet the physical book in my bookshelf. :-)
01:08:20 *tic* prefers reading on his sony reader nowadays.
01:08:33 Ironic how the hunchentoot website is down ...
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01:08:37 tic: What, scanning the pages isn't good enough for you? ;)
01:08:41 sellout, ugh
01:09:14 maybe if you get me one of them scanners google uses.
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01:12:09 *Zzzz*
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01:20:54 sellout: can't you load your own books onto the Kindle?
01:21:19 Adamant: Yeah at least txt, mobi and PDF. I don't know about other formats.
01:21:50 I should look into getting some PDF reader on my iPhone ...
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01:22:04 sellout: so buy a legal copy then ditch it and use the warez'ed pdf or mobi
01:22:20 that's more or less how I game when DRM ticks me off
01:22:58 the author got paid, I got my content how I want it, any moral/ethical/legal duty is discharged in my book
01:23:07 Adamant: I haven't found much in the way of warezed ebooks that I'm actually interested in.
01:23:12 fair enough
01:23:20 Adamant: It's apparently cake to take off the DRM, though.
01:23:25 ah, good
01:23:45 Mostly I use the Kindle for reading papers in PDF, and mobis off Gutenberg.
01:24:04 sellout: avaxhome.ws
01:24:17 PragProg sell their books in unencumbered mobi.
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01:27:21 xristos: Thanks. That might help me in my project of replacing things I currently have hardcopy of.
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01:37:22 Anybody know how to suppress the message "Fast loading ..." that Allegro prints when you (require 'asdf)?
01:38:04 Is there a list of reader macros somewhere? I'm using sbcl if it matters.
01:38:24 [16:42
01:38:27 gah!
01:38:45 ben_m: the hyperspec lists all the standard ones.
01:38:45 ben_m, yeah there is, in the Hyperspec. Trying to figure out where...
01:38:54 Aah, thanks.
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01:39:50 ben_m, sbcl's manual probably lists any extra ones that they support
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01:40:29 Good morning!
01:40:37 ben_m, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_d.htm http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm
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01:40:59 malsyned: Thanks!
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01:46:17 I'm trying to get alisp to run, execute the code in a file, and then exit. I've succeeded, except that it prints out three lines of status before it gets into my code. Two of them are of the form "Installing XXX patch, version Y" and one is "Fast loading XXX". Anybody know how to suppress?
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01:52:04 check allegro docs
01:52:21 xristos, I've been.
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02:06:28 I've been using (loop ... always pred) all the ime and mourned over the lack of an (all pred list) function and now I discover EVERY :>
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02:09:47 ben_m: it takes a while to learn everything in the hyperspec.
02:09:57 a long while!
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02:10:48 prxq: That information on the arc page is outdated, there is a hack that makes cons cells mutable again tha they're using which allows using recent plt versions.
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02:18:14 drewc: yeah :)
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02:36:35 Is there a function to change substrings of a string? I could use a regexp, but that would probably be overkill.
02:36:51 Something like (string-replace "foo" "bar" "foobar") ; => "barbar"
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02:40:38 ben_m: (replace "foobar" "bar")
02:40:54 uhm
02:41:11 Ok, that works in this example :
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02:41:26 Not what I meant though.
02:41:57 (cl-ppcre:regex-replace "s" "this is lisp" "th") ; "thith ith lithp"
02:42:00 if you want to chagne a substring with a string with different length, then you have to use append or with-output-to-string
02:42:03 I'm just using that now.
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02:45:33 ldb needs a disassembler
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03:02:51 :P
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03:26:31 heh wordpress makes me cry
03:26:50 using clsql to write directly to it...their schema in some ways makes me shake my head wondering why.
03:27:35 Was probably a good idea at the time.
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03:28:41 i can only think of some of their decisions as a way for increasing speed - for example, they have a comment_count field, yet are using something like polymorphic associations on the posts table, where the post_type is the association.
03:29:17 In other words, they can derive the count through a group by - for efficiency I can see why they did the comment_count
03:29:23 but it still makes me sad
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03:46:15 Friendly greetings ! \o/
03:48:13 i'm looking for an introduction to lisp, i don't understand the meaning of differents implementation, maybe some kind of comparaison table to understand why there is so many "lisp" ?
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03:55:17 ker2x_: I wouldn't worry about a comparison table if you're just looking for an introduction to lisp. I'm assuming that you mean Common Lisp by your comment, which really once you learn one it's not that much different to look at the others.
03:55:31 minion tell ker2x_ about pcl
03:55:50 give me a break...first time i wanted to use minion and i get it wrong, I'll do it the manual way, haha
03:55:59 :)
03:56:18 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ from what i see from the intro on mcclim manual and other sources by now, mcclim doesn't have to rely on any widget set or theme or whatever of the underlying backend and window manager, so for what exactly it uses the backend?
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03:56:54 TDT: thank you :)
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03:57:14 the only lisp-y langage i know is clojure
03:57:22 and i don't know so much about it :)
03:57:24 only for mouse click handling etc. ?
03:57:26 jahmarley: To my understanding, it's direct X calls, not using GTK or QT which is a layer above the X calls.
03:58:15 ker2x_: Really the concept of how stuff like Cl works is the hard hump to get over, but once you get that moving on to scheme, or closure isn't as much of an issue..nor is understanding more functional programming languages such as F# and haskell.
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03:58:52 i know some haskell, erlang, clojure, scala
03:58:57 *ker2x_* like functionnal programming
03:59:30 Well then CL will be a fair bit less of a jump than it was for me then. I came from PHP/Ruby/Java/C
03:59:38 CL was a bit painful at first
03:59:45 :)
04:00:21 i started functionnal with Erlang, which is (imho) the nicest FP langage ever
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04:00:48 I have a coworker who's into erlang.
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04:01:14 i'm going to read the Practical Common Lisp, and make some coffee :)
04:02:17 TDT: not using gtk or qt? so it just uses gtk backend for more modern look if we would like it? except that it purely relies on x, right?
04:03:08 ker2x_: CL is less functional by nature than something like Scheme. It will let you code imperatively, functionally or in an OO style as you like. However, it has more mature compilers, tools and libraries than Scheme in my opinion and there are functional programming libs for CL.
04:03:30 CL is exactly as functional by nature as scheme.
04:03:32 jahmarley: To my understanding all the widgets still rely on base X calls, and mcclim calls the base X calls similar to gtk - so it's a different widget library from my understanding. I could be wrong about this, though.
04:03:35 They are both procedural languages.
04:03:57 *froydnj* sees run-program hanging in sb-thread builds and goes back to single-thread builds
04:05:31 Zhivago: Yes, thanks for that note. "by nature" was a poor choice of words.
04:05:36 tdt: Well, it depends on what you mean by 'widget'.
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04:05:54 redline: I'd base your argument around tail recursion support.
04:06:24 *ker2x_* is back from the coffee machine
04:06:27 Zhivago: I was thinking of the number of mutation-based constructs/primitives in the standard. *shrug* They're both brilliantly malleable languages.
04:06:52 A very bad metric. :)
04:07:06 They have about the same number in proportion to the number of supported types.
04:07:27 set-cdr! set-car! set-ref! set! ...
04:07:50 Zhivago: Good answer. Never thought about it in proportion to types!
04:07:53 *redline6561* ponders
04:08:26 i'm currently playing with x86 assembler. With Common Lisp i'm looking for something that is deadly fast. i heard that lisp could be deadly fast :)
04:08:53 one last thing, i read that mcclim used opengl backend at first, is it totally abandoned, or can we still use opengl backend (and this makes it portable, i like portable :) )
04:08:59 Death can come quite slowly for many.
04:09:18 lol Zhivago
04:09:26 jahmarley: I think that it means that you might have to do a bit of work and shouldn't bother people about it.
04:09:47 But he's right...I wouldn't exactly call Lisp super fast, or slow...it can be slow, or it can be fast, depending on what you're doing and who you're comparing it to.
04:10:09 For speed with respect to free implementations you probably want sbcl.
04:10:49 right now... i do that kind of stuff http://ker.endofinternet.net/img/
04:10:55 math, math, math and math
04:11:11 If speed is your top priority then lisp might not be your first choice.
04:11:30 How do I catch signals with lisp?
04:11:45 In an implementation defined manner.
04:11:52 Unless you mean lisp signals.
04:12:21 No, signals as in SIGINT etc.
04:12:23 my first choice is x64 and SSE3 instructions. i'm not expecting lisp to be faster than that :)
04:12:32 sbcl would be the implementation
04:12:32 ben: Then it's time to read your implementation documentation.
04:12:36 I shall :)
04:12:43 but not as slow as a JVM langage :)
04:13:05 ker2x_: I'd really weigh out the cost in terms of development speed to the speed you need and the application area you need it in. CL can be a nice balance for that.
04:13:08 JVMs can be pretty fast with a bit of lead time.
04:13:29 Zhivago: for big application
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04:15:09 Zhivago: i thought i was just asking, excuse me for not knowing that they are both same, since i don't have a linux already installed to my machine, and i don't have the opportunity to install it right now and i am trying to learn clim right now i thought asking if there is a way to run it in windows easily would be a good idea
04:15:32 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-228-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp
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04:16:44 greetings
04:17:27 alright time for bed, it's getting late. good night all
04:17:28 Zhivago: but you are right, in fact i should write everything from scratch instead of asking if there is already one, right?
04:17:50 -!- TDT [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has quit []
04:17:51 jahmarley: What are you babbling about?
04:19:19 Zhivago: anyway
04:20:52 any idea if opengl backend of mcclim is still available and working?
04:21:06 Last I looked the code is still there.
04:21:19 As for working ... you might try it.
04:22:01 Zhivago: thanks
04:24:50 ker2x_: you could also do SSE in CL, or use generate asm only in a few critical places.
04:25:05 wooo \o/
04:25:32 very good news :)
04:26:27 well, according to the online book i'm reading. It's more or less the same thing as clojure
04:27:11 I doubt that.
04:27:36 well, to be exact : Clojure look like lisp :)
04:28:25 ker2x_ if you want SSE vector maths, checkout sb-cga
04:28:50 it requires SBCL though, but the is a port to other implementations in the works
04:28:58 the is/there is
04:29:02 http://github.com/nikodemus/sb-cga ?
04:29:13 that's it,
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04:29:28 thx :)
04:29:38 you could also checkout 3b's version
04:29:55 it has CCL port, and a few other things
04:30:13 http://github.com/3b/sb-cga
04:30:44 added to my watch list :)
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04:51:18 what is Allegro common lisp ? a commercial implementation ?
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04:53:41 ker2x_: yes
04:53:48 thank you :)
04:55:17 ker2x_: you can check out the personal express edition, it has a few limitations but not really limiting the newbies :)
04:55:56 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp
04:58:20 ok :)
04:59:41 konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has joined #lisp
05:01:36 What's the deal with XCVB? Has it been getting any traction as an alternative to asdf?
05:01:39 ker2x_: by the way, clojure is a lisp dialect, so yes, it might look similar to common lisp code, but it is not a common lisp implementation, it is a different programming language. that's why it is not the same thing as clojure
05:01:42 I just stumbled on it today.
05:01:49 i'll try, i'm a big fan of graph database :)
05:02:01 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp
05:02:01 And they have allegrograph
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05:12:15 ker2x_: if you use pure common lisp in allegro, you won't have any problems using the same code on some other implementation, the thing is, except that, most of your code won't be portable i guess, so if you don't think of buying it later for commercial use and thinking on switching to a free implementation later, starting directly from a free implementation might be also a good choice.
05:13:00 understood :)
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05:29:37 huh ... $599
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05:30:34 ker2x_: what is $599?
05:30:42 Allegro lisp :)
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05:35:38 ker2x_: it's the "starting" price :)
05:35:54 =^_^=
05:35:55 Ah.
05:38:07 ker2x_: that was what i meant by " if you don't think of buying it later for commercial use" :p
05:38:42 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
05:38:45 yes but i tought about something like $100 :)
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05:40:28 ker2x_: no, in fact 599 is the academic professional licence price, i guess it doesn't include commercial distribution right, too.
05:40:29 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away
05:41:04 ok, let's forget about this
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05:45:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TOPIO_3.0.jpg nice :)
05:48:16 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp
05:49:05 http://www.cons.org/cmucl/ look interesting :)
05:49:25 ker2x_: but as i said before, it really is a 'must see' environment even if you don't plan to buy it and the express edition can be used for learning purposes if anyway, but if you want to stick with a free implementation, choices like sbcl and clozure cl are very nice, if you are on linux, i guess sbcl is probably the best choice, if you are on windows, the experimental win port of sbcl is pretty good but some serious things like thread support is still m
05:49:58 ok :)
05:50:05 ker2x_: sbcl is a fork of cmucl.
05:50:12 ha cool :)
05:50:24 plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has joined #lisp
05:50:25 i'm not in a hurry to learn lisp
05:50:45 ker2x_: Why not?
05:51:17 lack of time is probably the best reason :)
05:51:20 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
05:51:40 and i haven't finished some asm code
05:52:00 ker2x_: common lisp is a result of 50 years of development, so you should hurry if you want to learn it completely before you die :D
05:52:11 hehehe
05:52:37 hooo pgplot-cl !
05:52:41 *ker2x_* like pgplot
05:53:54 jahmarley: when the CLX backend is used, McCLIM only uses the windowing and drawing facilities of X11.
05:54:31 ker2x_: The sooner you learn lisp, the sooner you will save time by becoming more productive.
05:55:00 being a sysadmin, and not a coder, i don't care about my coding productivity :)
05:55:07 and i need more coffee... brb
05:55:09 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp
05:58:32 and with all thoses php coder that surround me at work, there is absolutly no way that lisp will ever be used at work :(
05:58:35 sadly
05:59:07 otherwise, i may try to implement a proxy cache in lisp :)
05:59:23 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-paryxolfgwymrqth] has joined #lisp
05:59:26 morning
05:59:43 plage: oh, thanks for that, so if the level of abstraction layers go that deep, it shouldn't be hard to extent it to use opengl backend for cross-platform usage.
05:59:58 ysph [n=user@adsl-157-159-168.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp
06:02:54 i know that McCLIM is first used opengl backend years ago, but afaik the library it used back then is pretty inferior to and different from cl-opengl. so it will be a bit annoying to work on that code, anyway, i'll try to make it work on cl-opengl some time.
06:03:53 any biding to OpenCL or Cuda in Lisp ?
06:04:09 ker2x_: cl-opengl
06:04:19 opengl is not opencl
06:04:48 ker2x_: hmm, sorry, i haven't slept for 20 hours now :)
06:04:53 :D
06:07:10 plage: i've seen some posts about working McCLIM on clisp in windows, i found it strange to use clisp for this purpose since probably sbcl or cmucl is usually best fit for McCLIM, can you think of any reason for clisp choice? it is a post from 2006, so i thought maybe there wasn't even a sbcl port to win back then.
06:08:02 jahmarley: (i forgot to mention xming. they used clx on xming as backend)
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06:08:30 i guess i really should sleep btw :)
06:08:35 jahmarley: that's probably right. I've used sbcl+Xming+CLIM on Windows before.
06:11:16 splittist: one last question, does mcclim work on ccl? i couldn't find where they mention the implementations it should work in mcclim site
06:12:25 jahmarley: it certainly should. I'm almost sure I was using McClim on OpenMCL (which is what ccl used to be called).
06:13:51 splittist: oh, thanks
06:13:57 so i'll try ccl+clx+xming+winxp, good luck to me :D
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06:40:52 time to go. thx for your help :)
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07:50:19 I'm considering using lisp as an alternative to windows batch file (.bat). Which lisp should I try? Criteria:
07:50:23 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.38.177] has joined #lisp
07:50:36 1. I need a stable standalone excutable file as a result
07:50:45 can anybody help me find the current source of clx
07:50:52 2. I prefer to use emacs+slime.
07:51:02 it is not in common-lisp.net and the cliki links are dead
07:52:00 google doesn't help since it insist on linking to cliki
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07:55:10 jahmarley: http://www.cliki.net/CLX
07:55:55 the link i privately send you was from ^
07:57:03 xenosoz2: so i'm probably having problems with my isp, because the links were dead in my browser half an hour ago
07:57:29 :)
07:58:42 hi i have one question
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08:01:10 lisperati_boy: and you wanna keep it a secret?
08:01:32 no, im thinking about how to ask
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08:02:27 ok here it go:
08:02:34 I made a celullar automata with common lisp made with a 3d array,
08:02:42 if my 3d matrix is very big , say 50 cubes per dimension , that is 50 * 50 * 50 = 125 000
08:02:50 So it draw 125 000 cubes in each frame , it is very slow , which techniques does exist to draw a thounthands of cubes in a fast way?
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08:04:15 this is the automata, i want to navigate inside the structure generated by the automata, but it is very slow, it doesnt look smooth with big matrix
08:04:20 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/imagenes/automata_estructura_array.png
08:04:21 any idea?
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08:09:37 lisperati: 'occlusion'.
08:10:20 whats that?
08:10:37 Something for you to do a little research on.
08:10:44 cool thanks
08:10:55 is it something specific of common lisp or is something general?
08:11:09 Graphics.
08:11:20 ok thanks
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08:14:53 it is an algorithm for not processing the surfaces which won't be seen anyway, but what do you use to shade the automata?
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08:17:27 because i think libs like opengl already handles that stuff, but i may be wrong
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08:21:19 Opengl may handle it for the stuff that you send it, but that still involves sending it.
08:21:40 If you have a large voxel space then the cost of sending it to opengl may be the prohibitive factor.
08:22:47 glx has a hack to communicate directly with hardware
08:22:49 And even 100x100x100 is a million objects.
08:22:49 in C, at least
08:23:50 Zhivago: hmm, i see your point.
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