This thread is going to mean it will be a long time before I get my first subwoofer... My budget started at $1,000 and now I'm feeling that is far too small to accomplish a quality bass setup in a HT. This forum has cost me more money than I would have thought possible!

You and me both. The diy forum is much friendlier on the wallet so I try to spend more time there.

This thread is going to mean it will be a long time before I get my first subwoofer... My budget started at $1,000 and now I'm feeling that is far too small to accomplish a quality bass setup in a HT. This forum has cost me more money than I would have thought possible!

Probably, I am researching this to death so hopefully I find a good compromise soon. My comment was more tongue-in-cheek. I was originally looking at a big tv and a HTIB... But none satisfied me. Now I'm redoing an entire room and was sure I was going with a VTF-15h... Now I'm looking at a Captivator possibly :-)

The nice thing about a sub such as a Captivator is that it goes a long way to stop the upgraditis.

Back on topic a bit, how different would a sub that can hit 20hz sound/feel from one that can go lower? Would it be a night and day difference? For instance a VTF-15h vs a Captivator Passive with Behringer EP4000?

Back on topic a bit, how different would a sub that can hit 20hz sound/feel from one that can go lower? Would it be a night and day difference? For instance a VTF-15h vs a Captivator Passive with Behringer EP4000?

The Cap will extend somewhat deeper but the primary difference is output. One Cap should put out as much as three or four VTF-15's

I think Archaea did some damage to his ears in pursuit of the loudest and deepest subs. He ended up with dual Captivators.

As you were

Hopefully (and seemingly likely) not permanent --- I just have to be smarter and regularly remember the caps are far more powerful than my ears are capable. The trick for me that the cleaner it sounds at loud volumes - the louder I want to play it!!! Ive not had my hearing measured or checked out in a couple years (when I did previous it was perfectly normal for my age), but I have encountered issues with very light tinnutus on and off after my most enjoyable listening sessions -- only since acquring the caps in July. One spell lasted almost a month after a particularly loud very short demo session where I actually was listening loud enough to make my first EP4000 amp fail with my fun. funny/sad how that works. I've not played the Caps that loud since.

I've never had this problem with tinnutus before --- outside of my hatchback and subwoofer days in college 10 years ago, and it cleared up then, and I expect it'll clear up now - if I quit pushing things. I'm not being as cautious as I should be, though I have exercised more caution after that month long little worry recently. I still have a bit of tinnitus right now-even at this moment -but it's not bad - it's very light, and it gets lesser all the time, and completely goes away until I watch another movie or listen to music again with too much enthusiam and set my self back a little bit on it completely going away. It's like a unreasonably large slice of cheesecake - you know you don't need one that big, but there is so much pleasure in eating it!

I was listening to the subs again last night too loud and enjoying it immensely - grinning from ear to ear.

Hopefully (and seemingly likely) not permanent --- I just have to be smarter and regularly remember the caps are far more powerful than my ears are capable. The trick for me that the cleaner it sounds at loud volumes - the louder I want to play it!!! Ive not had my hearing measured or checked out in a couple years (when I did previous it was perfectly normal for my age), but I have encountered issues with very light tinnutus on and off after my most enjoyable listening sessions -- only since acquring the caps in July. One spell lasted almost a month after a particularly loud very short demo session where I actually was listening loud enough to make my first EP4000 amp fail with my fun. funny/sad how that works. I've not played the Caps that loud since.

I've never had this problem with tinnutus before --- outside of my hatchback and subwoofer days in college 10 years ago, and it cleared up then, and I expect it'll clear up now - if I quit pushing things. I'm not being as cautious as I should be, though I have exercised more caution after that month long little worry recently. I still have a bit of tinnitus right now-even at this moment -but it's not bad - it's very light, and it gets lesser all the time, and completely goes away until I watch another movie or listen to music again with too much enthusiam and set my self back a little bit on it completely going away. It's like a unreasonably large slice of cheesecake - you know you don't need one that big, but there is so much pleasure in eating it!

I was listening to the subs again last night too loud and enjoying it immensely - grinning from ear to ear.

what's that word again? balance?

I have battled tinnitis for years. Probably from firecrackers blowing up in face as a boy. It sucks big time and for me never completely goes away, although its severity varies from kind of gentle background noise to drive-you-insane-and-can't-sleep loud. My advice is be even more careful than you think you need to be because, again, it sucks big time.

I have been dealing with tinnitus for the past 5 years and I can confirm, it sucks. Mine doesn't really bother me until I night time when I am trying to go to sleep. It is one of those things that doesn't sound that bad but believe me, it is torture. I went and saw a ENT a couple years ago for the problem and he told me their was a surgery I could get but it is only a 50/50 chance it may work. A lot of guys I work with suffer from it as well. The fire department I work for just started putting hearing protection on all of the apparatus but at this point, I think the damage is already done. To little to late. I'll probably go deaf after I retire and at that point, we will see just how much my hearing is worth to the city I worked for.

I have battled tinnitis for years. Probably from firecrackers blowing up in face as a boy. It sucks big time and for me never completely goes away, although its severity varies from kind of gentle background noise to drive-you-insane-and-can't-sleep loud. My advice is be even more careful than you think you need to be because, again, it sucks big time.

+1 I don't suffer from it but I know about it. I don't believe you can cure it but it can be masked depending on severity iirc.

I've only glanced at this thread so pardon me if I'm outta phase with the previous discussions so far but I find myself with some time to kill before Thanksgiving dinner is served, so...

I believe as frequencies get lower that a gradual transitioning takes place going from audible effects to vibratory effects and once you get below 20Hz it almost all vibratory. You'll need a huge amount of SPL to still hear the audible effects when freqs are that low... this can be seen by viewing the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves. I suspect if you are still hearing any thing at those low freqs, its most likely harmonics, distortion, and stuff in your house vibrating. People some times talk about the need for realism in order to enjoy the whole theater experience but if you actually had jet aircraft, whirling helios, epi-center earthquakes, exploding mortar rounds, depth charges, etc actually going off in your theater room you'd be deaf and your room would be in shambles... I don't think any of us really want that. Plus if you're trying to achieve some sort of sonic balance across the freq spectrum, by the time you got the bass level SPL up high enough to give you real world effects the higher frequencies would render your ear drums permanently damaged. I like the idea of effects sounding real, just not that real.

My system is easily capable below 20Hz but I don't think it makes that much of a difference in my movie enjoyment. I actually get tired of always reading postings from people that have spent a small fortune on subs trying get below 20Hz response essentially bragging to those that don't have this capability about how they are missing soooo much and how their opinions don't count because they haven't "heard" it or experienced it. Well I have and my opinion is "meh" its alright I guess...

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."JuicyDoggie Jabber

I've only glanced at this thread so pardon me if I'm outta phase with the previous discussions so far but I find myself with some time to kill before Thanksgiving dinner is served, so...

I believe as frequencies get lower that a gradual transitioning takes place going from audible effects to vibratory effects and once you get below 20Hz it almost all vibratory. You'll need a huge amount of SPL to still hear the audible effects when freqs are that low... this can be seen by viewing the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves. I suspect if you are still hearing any thing at those low freqs, its most likely harmonics, distortion, and stuff in your house vibrating. People some times talk about the need for realism in order to enjoy the whole theater experience but if you actually had jet aircraft, whirling helios, epi-center earthquakes, exploding mortar rounds, depth charges, etc actually going off in your theater room you'd be deaf and your room would be in shambles... I don't think any of us really want that. Plus if you're trying to achieve some sort of sonic balance across the freq spectrum, by the time you got the bass level SPL up high enough to give you real world effects the higher frequencies would render your ear drums permanently damaged. I like the idea of effects sounding real, just not that real.

My system is easily capable below 20Hz but I don't think it makes that much of a difference in my movie enjoyment. I actually get tired of always reading postings from people that have spent a small fortune on subs trying get below 20Hz response essentially bragging to those that don't have this capability about how they are missing soooo much and how their opinions don't count because they haven't "heard" it or experienced it. Well I have and my opinion is "meh" its alright I guess...

Well said, but I bet those same folks that spent all that to get to 10hz and below will have a rebuttle!

Well said, but I bet those same folks that spent all that to get to 10hz and below will have a rebuttle!

This is a hobby that leads to all kinds of gross excess. Some folks upgrade from 5.1 to 7.1 to 9.1 to 11.1. Some like to put 500 watts per channel into extremely sensitive pro-style speakers when 100 watts will easily do. Some will spend more money on speaker cables, interconnects, and power cords as I spent on all my subs combined. Many will replace their entire systems for no better reason than they simple got tired of their old system. These are all crazy manifestations of this hobby.

That can be said of any hobby or any activity really. There will always be those whose desire to be that 1% will allow it to top all common sense and be willing to sacrifice (or ignore) all else to achieve that status... they are called extremists. Every hobby, occupation, sport, religion, political ideology, etc has them. Sometimes the sacrifice is physical, sometimes its involves mental discipline, sometimes it monetary or any combination. It would seem to me going LOW takes some skills and a lot of theater space but mostly it takes money (it takes it and then goes on to take more of it... and yes, it does sound like an addiction). So, how much is one willing to spend to achieve 1% in the ULF subwoofer war? Me personally? I have too many other hobbies and relationships to throw my resources at... to put it simply, achieving a big boom is kinda low on my priorities list.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."JuicyDoggie Jabber

That can be said of any hobby or any activity really. There will always be those whose desire to be that 1% will allow it to top all common sense and be willing to sacrifice (or ignore) all else to achieve that status... they are called extremists. Every hobby, occupation, sport, religion, political ideology, etc has them. Sometimes the sacrifice is physical, sometimes its involves mental discipline, sometimes it monetary or any combination. It would seem to me going LOW takes some skills and a lot of theater space but mostly it takes money (it takes it and then goes on to take more of it... and yes, it does sound like an addiction). So, how much is one willing to spend to achieve 1% in the ULF subwoofer war? Me personally? I have too many other hobbies and relationships to throw my resources at... to put it simply, achieving a big boom is kinda low on my priorities list.

I appreciate your perspective but most of this is inaccurate wrt to 'achieving that last 1%' in the world of HT bass extension and SQ.

I appreciate your perspective but most of this is inaccurate wrt to 'achieving that last 1%' in the world of HT bass extension and SQ.

Agree.

In my case, in 2003 I built my 1st dual opposed 2x15" sealed sub. I used 3000W of amp and shaped the signal with a Marchand Bassis and wham... response to single digits in-room.

Total cost for drivers, enclosure, Bassis and amp = $1700.00.

The amp clipped on the low stuff and the drivers liked to climb outta the box, so I bought 4 Tumults and built a second enclosure and a beefier amp and...double-wham... response to single digits with no clipping and plenty of X-max left.

Total cost for the system = $3000.00. I've been discussing the details of that system with virtually all of my average 1 post per day over 3000 days to largely deaf ears.

In that time, I dare say that "most" members here have gone through several upgrades of subs and these days the better ID subs are right were I spent nearly a decade ago.

Point is, it was cheaper than ID sub, upgrade, upgrade, upgrade (and still don't get anything below 20 Hz) to spend the $3k up front and, more importantly, it was stupid-simple to do, and I have yet to see data of better performance from any ID sub posted on these boards.

And I still get the "you spent a fortune and need a nuclear power plant in your garage chasing single digits".

I'm posting this here because I know you, having been around the bass forums at least as long as I have, can co-sign the above.

That can be said of any hobby or any activity really. There will always be those whose desire to be that 1% will allow it to top all common sense and be willing to sacrifice (or ignore) all else to achieve that status... they are called extremists. Every hobby, occupation, sport, religion, political ideology, etc has them. Sometimes the sacrifice is physical, sometimes its involves mental discipline, sometimes it monetary or any combination.

"Extremists"??? "... allow it to top all common sense..."???
Wow! Those are some pretty harsh, judgmental comments.

I don't consider myself an extremist. And I try to use common sense with all my purchases. Yet, I have pursued the bottom octaves of ULF's. My 3 Submersive HP's can dig pretty deep into the infrasonic range. I realize they are probably more than a lot of people would want to spend on subwoofers. However, I find myself at a point in my life were I can afford these subs, (kids are out of the house and financially independent, my wife and I have enough disposable income, etc.) This is my hobby, and if I want to spend some of my hard-earned money to try to optimize my system, who are you to tell me I'm an "extremist"? Personally, I think my subs are an excellent value, and that's all that is important to me.

There are a lot of relatively expensive hobbies out there... airplanes, boats, heck even golf. I know several people who spend more per year on their country club memberships than I spent on my subs. I know guys who track their cars. They spend a $hitload of money on their cars and on traveling to the track. I don't golf, and I don't track my car, (anymore), but I use my subs on a regular basis. That makes them an excellent "value" for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by monomer

It would seem to me going LOW takes some skills and a lot of theater space but mostly it takes money (it takes it and then goes on to take more of it... and yes, it does sound like an addiction). So, how much is one willing to spend to achieve 1% in the ULF subwoofer war? Me personally? I have too many other hobbies and relationships to throw my resources at... to put it simply, achieving a big boom is kinda low on my priorities list.

Just because you are uninterested or financially unable to pursue the infrasonics, that doesn't give you the right to call those of us who care about them "extremists."

My next purchase is going to be a JVC RS-55. I suppose now you're going to tell that I should just get an inexpensive 720 projector; that there's not much additional benefit to the higher resolution and deeper contrast. I would value that opinion as little as I value your comments about pursuing the infrasonics.

Craig

Lombardi said it:Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

Actually I can define a group however I choose and use whatever labels I choose and you are free to consider yourself in that group or not and disagree with the labels I've chosen... The thing is most extremists do not see themselves as extremists... so that's the catch-22. To some people even my measily investment in my subwoofers qualify me as an extremist... however, I'm not out to convert others nor am I the type to brag about my obsessions or possessions. I like to help people get the most out of what they have instead of always trying to up-sell them on whatever I've done just to satisfy my own ego or justify my own purchases.

As an aside: You know, even the 1% (in reference to the Occupy Wallstreet movement's definition) do not think of themselves as rich or having too much and in fact blame the unemployed for being unemployed... so there is definitely a disconnect somewhere.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."JuicyDoggie Jabber

Actually I can define a group however I choose and use whatever labels I choose and you are free to consider yourself in that group or not and disagree with the labels I've chosen... The thing is most extremists do not see themselves as extremists... so that's the catch-22. To some people even my measily investment in my subwoofers qualify me as an extremist... however, I'm not out to convert others nor am I the type to brag about my obsessions or possessions. I like to help people get the most out of what they have instead of always trying to up-sell them on whatever I've done just to satisfy my own ego.

As an aside: You know, even the 1% (in reference to the Occupy Wallstreet movement's definition) do not think of themselves as rich or having too much and in fact blame the unemployed for being unemployed... so there is definitely a disconnect somewhere.

I prefer to seek natural sounding bass (as in natural musical instruments sounding nuanced and real and I include even bass vocals since my own personal definition of the bass frequencies goes up to 200Hz and so this includes paying attention to the mains as well). I am not an SPL guy but rather I seek balance (okay so I am a Libra). I consider myself extreme in the lengths I've gone to in my room treatments... still there are MANY here on AVS that have me beat in this area for sure but to the general public THAT (acoustical room treatments) is my weird obsession... and so I'll accept that label of extremist. Still I don't try to up-sell anyone other than to often recommend taking in-room measurements as the first step to solving preceived issues with bass response. Just from my own personal experience I have the impression that very powerful low extension is at odds with the reproduction of nuanced and natural sounding bass in music (discounting rap and techno type music that feature distortion-based synthetic driving bass lines). I tend to find that many things in audio (as in life) involves trade-offs. My greatest difficulty sub-wise has been trying to strike that balance within the bass frequencies.

An aside: There is by far way more bass music in blockbusters than any below 20Hz movie effects.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."JuicyDoggie Jabber

Most of my friends and co-workers think I am a nut for spending as much as I have on audio gear while many here would consider my system as at best mid-grade.
It is all just a matter of perspective.
I encourage everyone to get as good of an audio system as they can afford to get.
If someone asks me for an opinion on gear I try hard to give a couple of suggestions and to not to upsale them.
Many times it is simply a question of which HTIB is better, A or B ?
You have to remember that a soundbar or a HTIB is a big step up from nothing and I think everyone involved with home theater or HiFi should encourage that step.
The hardest sell for me is when someone "is ready to go all the way" and asks what I think of one of the Bose Acoustimass systems... There is enough budget there to actually get a pretty good entry level system but its really hard to compete against the Bose marketing machine. I have won one of those and lost two... all three people are thrilled with their systems though so its all good.
I have spent more money on guns, tools, and RC model planes than I have on audio equipment and its safe to say I use the audio gear the most out of any of the other stuff so its a bargain overall.

I appreciate your perspective but most of this is inaccurate wrt to 'achieving that last 1%' in the world of HT bass extension and SQ.

I don't think it's inaccurate at all and simply an opinion on the matter- although I would agree that the allusion to a lack of, or "topping" of common sense is a bit harsh.

The fact is that if you picked 100 people out of a phone book and asked them if spending more than a $1000 to reach sub 20hz response in a home thater was "worth it" or adviseable, at least 98 of them would tell you "no". And 95 of those 98 would almost certainly tell you "no" again, even after experiencing it first-hand.

And if that doesn't make a decent case for us being a bit extreme, or at least a significant outlier, I don't know what would.

We cannot of course all share the identical perspective, but we can (most times ) arrive at a reasonable place where the "others" at least begin to divide from the common and then the more extreme versions become a bit easier to detect from there. LMAO.

So, while it may not be insane per se, the vast, vast, majority of folks out there would almost certainly regard many's pursuit of the the final few percentiles as extreme in more than one regard as it lies far, far outside both their own- and very likely- what the super-majority of what their friends and family pursue/spend/enjoy. So, understanding that, it's not unreasonable at all for them to gauge our ilk as "extreme". Hell, how can I deny my own "extremism" with a 60" $6,000 tv, 11 channel surround and subwoofer the size of a small refrigerator?

And lord knows there's volumes on this very site more extreme still.

I for one embrace it and do not take offense to the "label" one iota. It's what I enjoy and so long as my family eats and the bills are paid...whatever. Afterall, it could be a $XXX,XXX "non-extreme" car.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

I prefer to seek natural sounding bass (as in natural musical instruments sounding nuanced and real and I include even bass vocals since my own personal definition of the bass frequencies goes up to 200Hz and so this includes paying attention to the mains as well). I am not an SPL guy but rather I seek balance (okay so I am a Libra). I consider myself extreme in the lengths I've gone to in my room treatments... still there are MANY here on AVS that have me beat in this area for sure but to the general public THAT (acoustical room treatments) is my weird obsession... and so I'll accept that label of extremist. Still I don't try to up-sell anyone other than to often recommend taking in-room measurements as the first step to solving preceived issues with bass response. Just from my own personal experience I have the impression that very powerful low extension is at odds with the reproduction of nuanced and natural sounding bass in music (discounting rap and techno type music that feature distortion-based synthetic driving bass lines). I tend to find that many things in audio (as in life) involves trade-offs. My greatest difficulty sub-wise has been trying to strike that balance within the bass frequencies.

An aside: There is by far way more bass music in blockbusters than any below 20Hz movie effects.

With due respect, you agree to "play along" when you started it? That gave me a chuckle.

My son is like you. Every time he sits in the sweet spot to listen, he first claps his hands and says "Man, the reverberation in this room is unbearable!"

I concede the fact to him and promise some day I'll get around to it.

The point I'm always trying to make is that, using this example, I never tell him he's an extremist and quote some made-up numbers about what percentage of the global population doesn't care about reverberation.

I'm not so sensitive that I get defensive and start arguing from a position that's indefensible. Rather, I agree with him because he's a smart guy and in this case he's absolutely right.

On these forums, if someone posts facts that have to do with... um, let's see... Subwoofers, Bass and Transducers... good on him. Facts are the needed ingredient. If certain facts of the matter are irrelevant to you, move on to what is relevant to you. Don't instead tell the poster why, if it's irrelevant to you, it's somehow useless information and he's extreme and alone in the world vs everyone else.

When a member starts a thread that asks "The purpose of flat response below 20 Hz - why does it matter?", there should only be 1 group involved. Instead there are immediately 2 groups involved. People who post the answer to that question and people who post why <20 Hz doesn't matter, while calling the first group silly names, disparaging their allotment of disposable income, etc.

Fact is, before the first page of this thread was done, there were 2 members, both of us having been active members for 10 years, answering the question with facts and everyone else was babbling about what subs they've owned, what they prefer as a LF cutoff point (which, surprise, just happened to coincide with their latest sub upgrade), how <20 Hz is inaudible and so, irrelevant, how human hearing isn't flat, Fletcher/Munsen and every other completely irrelevant point to the question asked.

[Sorry James, but...] One member actually posted this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mastermaybe

Excellent, excellent, post.

As a good number in these parts know, I was considering an all-out assault on the 5-15hz range, but after experiencing it in a couple of maniacal (in the best sense of the word, of course) HT's, I walked away thinking very closely to what you detailed above.

To me, it seems as much "specsmanship" as anything else, and when you begin to consider the costs and space, it simply reeks a bit daft to me.

Now, I'll "suffer" with two Captivators, be good to around ~15 pretty darn strong in my room and laugh all the way to the bank. To each, his own though of course.

Again, great thought, thanks for it.

James

Hmmmm... if one considers the cost and space, it's just specsmanship and it reeks a bit daft? OK. But wait, then he spends $3,000.00, deals with 16 cubes of sub and gets nothing below 15 Hz.

No one told him he spent too much, his subs are too big or he lacks extension for the space and $$ spent, did they? Much less call his 15 Hz specsmanship or his discretionary spending choices daft.

And, what on earth does this have to do with answering why flat to below 20 Hz matters?

I don't think it's inaccurate at all and simply an opinion on the matter- although I would agree that the allusion to a lack of, or "topping" of common sense is a bit harsh.

The fact is that if you picked 100 people out of a phone book and asked them if spending more than a $1000 to reach sub 20hz response in a home thater was "worth it" or adviseable, at least 98 of them would tell you "no". And 95 of those 98 would almost certainly tell you "no" again, even after experiencing it first-hand.

And if that doesn't make a decent case for us being a bit extreme, or at least a significant outlier, I don't know what would.

We cannot of course all share the identical perspective, but we can (most times ) arrive at a reasonable place where the "others" at least begin to divide from the common and then the more extreme versions become a bit easier to detect from there. LMAO.

So, while it may not be insane per se, the vast, vast, majority of folks out there would almost certainly regard many's pursuit of the the final few percentiles as extreme in more than one regard as it lies far, far outside both their own- and very likely- what the super-majority of what their friends and family pursue/spend/enjoy. So, understanding that, it's not unreasonable at all for them to gauge our ilk as "extreme". Hell, how can I deny my own "extremism" with a 60" $6,000 tv, 11 channel surround and subwoofer the size of a small refrigerator?

And lord knows there's volumes on this very site more extreme still.

I for one embrace it and do not take offense to the "label" one iota. It's what I enjoy and so long as my family eats and the bills are paid...whatever. Afterall, it could be a $XXX,XXX "non-extreme" car.

James

Heheh. I see where you're coming from but ... I'm not sure about the 'pick 100 people out from a phonebook' part.

First of all, I could pick 100 people out from a phone book and 100 of them might not even like movies.

This is AVS Forum and I'd argue that if you picked 100 random people, each one of them would be interested in a high performance subwoofer system if money was not a factor. Each one.

Seriously, there are a lot of people who post in the +$20,000 section who constantly upgrade their gear with not even incremental steps up in performance. A REALLY good subwoofer system (that also extends clean below 20hz) can be had for a tenth of that number. But that's absurd, I know.

First, I'm not sure if you're being serious about selecting a random sampling of 100 people and finding 100 of them do not like movies when in fact the converse is almost certainly the case- albeit with the operative imperative being something akin to: "yeah, the good ones" (which introduces a whole nother argument ).

Onward, using a fantastically small chasm of people like those found on AVS as a barometer for the populace is of course incongruent to the very essence of gauging normalcy. It's akin to asking a BMW forum if they think a $140,000 Z8 is "extreme". You can imagine the general tone of the response.

The core nature of anything/one being extreme is a departure from a perceived/real norm. That being the case, it's (mostly) fruitless to ask an extremist to gauge his/her zeal relative to the norm as their existence almost certainly is largely spent outside of it- even more so in a case similar to AVS bass-heads where we go from borderline cases to full-blown examples that almost everyone can agree upon within 2 seconds...except perhaps the extremists, lol.

Looking at the very definition of the word, a reasonable, compelling argument can be made that a good number on these boards fit the framework of an "extremist" near perfectly.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

Well, that's just what I am saying. It takes all kinds. Surely there are at least 100 people in any given city that honestly don't like movies. What I am saying is that, and Bosso put better than I, is .... well... his post is right up a couples up.

I'm working on 4hrs sleep and busy as hell at the office. Can't believe I am even making any sense at all but if I'm not ... you know why.

Anyway, the argument of crazy expensive ($1,000 is expensive? ) subwoofers on Audio Video Science Forum, inside the Subwoofers, Bass and Transducers subforum is... ummm ... more silly than some of the things said in threads like these.