Dredge is a weird deck. If i did play grave hate, i would likely play tormod's crypt. I have a fairly high win percentage vs everything but dredge. It's kind of a beating. I guess surgical seems reasonable too. I just don't want to be tempted to bring it in when i shouldn't haha

I've chosen to skip sideboard hate all together. The only time i really want graveyard hate is when i'm playing against dredge, which feels like a bad matchup. I think our countermagic beats most or all of the other graveyard strategies

Glad to see you've had positive results. I do like tracker, i play a lot of abzan and it has become a staple so i certainly understand the power of it. I'm not super excited about disrupting shoal so i skipped it. I have also used echoing truth in thoughtseize decks because it interacts with annoying leylines. i like echoing truth a lot, i wouldn't hate playing 1. Yes the snags make the grixis shadow matchup a lot better. getting to snag a delve threat is pretty huge. It is also the same reason i think jund shadow is less good for us haha. vapor snag is not as effective. It's still pretty good though. I suspect stubborn denial is pretty decent vs us.

Echoing truth seems like an interesting card, i think vapor snag has been very good. I'm also not certain of the eldrazi tron matchup so i'm not super keen on playing less than 3 rejections. if i did i would probably do 2 rejection, 1 negate and 1 dispel. i think dispel has been very good. I like the idea of chandra, torch of defiance. Less so on tracker because we don't play that many lands. Shadow matchup felt mostly fine. i haven't played against jund shadow yet but i am 2-0 vs grixis shadow. I suspect jund shadow is tougher

This is my list i have been playing with online. Albeit not in leagues, i've been playing in the tournament practice room for 15 matches with it to get the pace down and the play pattern. Of note i am 13-2 with it playing against all real decks. I lost to eldrazi tron and jund midrange. I've really been enjoying the deck, i love bauble and delver's interaction. At first glance you would think they don't get along but any hand with delver and bauble almost assuredly means it's flipping on turn 1. I think the traverse's have been great and i've really loved blossoming defense

Idk how good the list is, i wanted to focus on incremental value to make felidar guardian more impactful. I expect a fair bit of affinity, burn, and uwr control. I know i have a good affinity matchup but i am unsure about the other 2. Is 23 lands too many? Can i get away with 22? I also think some number of geist of saint traft could be good in the board

Yeah that's what i was saying, we are losing points in the grindy matchups with blue but i'm not certain we even need the grindy matchup stuff. The spell based combo decks and eldrazi tron is so popular, lingering souls doesn't do anything. I'm not sure how the grixis matchup goes, it's probably fairly close right? Maybe a slight underdog.

I've been testing both online, often i just beat abzan or grixis shadow without lingering souls. It happens fairly often when playing white splash where i wish i had stubborn denial

Do we still feel white is the better splash over blue? Seeing the top tournament results things like stubborn denial and ceremonious rejection seem really appealing. We are basically losing points in the grixis shadow matchup and black green/x. Stubborn denial is about equal with souls vs control decks. We also are way more clunky with the white cards postboard

The couser and Thrun aren't for certain. I expect to see a lot of Grixis shadow, eldrazi tron and counters company. I believe this deck has quite a bit of fight against all of them post board. 4 Ghost quarters and 3 fulminators make big mana decks pretty manageable. Brutality and flaying tendrils eats up counters company and leyline of the void destroys grixis shadow. Thoughts?

I'm curious what these other usual cards are in place of lingering souls in esper shadow?

They are the fourth Snapcaster Mage, more disruption (Inquisition, Stubborn, Deprive), more removals or Orzhov Charm, Liliana the Last Hope. The usual.

I'm open to discussion on what you think would be better in the 2 or 3 slots lingering souls takes up. I just think it's a necessary evil. Brad Nelson just won the open with Grixis shadow so you know that deck will be popular at larger events, lingering souls sways the match in our favor. It's always great against affinity and it's good against other decks that play lingering souls. I think without lingering souls in our deck, opposing lingering souls is a major problem since we don't have things like temur battle rage.

So, in reality, you're in agreement with me about Souls being very good, but only in few matches, so it's a sideboard card? Because it's what your post is saying ^^ As I already state, Souls here are good in the mirror, against opposing Souls decks and in other grindy match-ups, plus Affinity/Infect. The rest of the metagame doesn't care about them. Why playing them in the 60, so?

(I'm not opposing playing Souls in the 75, but I tested them intensively during the last months, and maindeck they were never what I wanted to see.)

On snapcaster i think it's just personal preference to be honest. You could certainly take out a souls for the 4th snapcaster. I don't think you'd be wrong per say. I just prefer the 3

I was referring to the "Snap being worse than in Grixis" argument. As I said, I'm fine shaving one of them if you play multiple Souls maindeck, because they compete for the "3cc" mana curve.

I think D90Dennis14 hit on it pretty well. Plus sideboard slots are tough. Curious on what your board would look like if your removed them from the main deck. I think you can easily cut the ranger. I haven't been super excited about it.

Your snapcaster statement is probably an accurate statement with souls. Well put

Then don't play Lingering souls dude lol. I don't see why you would want to pay esper if you aren't playing lingering souls. 3 is probably too many in the main deck, i wouldn't go below 2 though. It played well for me, i can say with confidence i want lingering souls in my deck. Snapcaster mage is just a card that is significantly better with red cards in your deck. Play what you feel is right, i just gave my 2 cents

Argumentation exists. Saying that "it plays well" doesn't have much sense. Cards are meant to be discussed, not to say "hey guys, look at this powerhouse, play four of them in your deck!". I asked you why you want to play them, as simple as that. Where they are useful, in your mind, when they wouldn't have been better being the other "usual" cards that this deck runs.

Snapcaster Mage isn't "significantly better" in red, cause Grixis only has 1-2 Bolts and 2 Kommand to recurr, where here you have Paths and Orzhov Charm. That's nonsensical. It isn't a Snap-Bolt deck, where your Snaps usually go on burns. You've got plenty of high-value cc1 spells, like Thoughtseize, Denial, Push and Path. Snapcaster is as good as in Grixis, here.

I'm curious what these other usual cards are in place of lingering souls in esper shadow? Have you been playing a list without them? Do you think there is something better we should be playing? I'm open to discussion on what you think would be better in the 2 or 3 slots lingering souls takes up. I just think it's a necessary evil. Brad Nelson just won the open with Grixis shadow so you know that deck will be popular at larger events, lingering souls sways the match in our favor. It's always great against affinity and it's good against other decks that play lingering souls. I think without lingering souls in our deck, opposing lingering souls is a major problem since we don't have things like temur battle rage.

On snapcaster i think it's just personal preference to be honest. You could certainly take out a souls for the 4th snapcaster. I don't think you'd be wrong per say. I just prefer the 3

@Darkest, it can certainly be awkward in your hand. I just think the upside is too high when flipping cards with thought scour and flipping cards with tasigur. You want to have those hits i think. I played against a couple grixis decks so lingering souls felt pretty strong in those matchups. It also came up against one of the griselbrand decks. He was at low life and he had enough to through the breach plus emrakul to "kill" me but i had 4 lingering souls and 4 lands along with a couple death's shadows. I left back a couple souls to block along with i'm able to sac them to the annihilator trigger. I realize that's not happening all the time with that matchup but i would have certainly been dead without them.

Well, don't take it the wrong way, but all you did was repeating how amazing Lingering Souls is, without providing any content. I'm very sceptical about maindecking a card which we only (if it's in our sb) bring in against grindy MUs. It's not about how good is Souls. It's about how good is HERE, in this strategy. I played it, and it was the real last card I ever wanted to see against Tron, Elrazi, Storm, Living End, CoCo, Dredge, Valakut, Burn, etc, etc. Having some in the 15 is one thing, playing three in the 60 another.

I just don't feel like we need the 4th one, it's not as important for us as it is for grixis because we aren't recurring them. We aren't able to bolt snap bolt for reach.

Given that, if ever I choose to go with 3 Souls maindeck I would maybe shave a Snap because of the deck-curve... not having Kommand is a reason to play MORE, not less of them. Bolt isn't really a thing in Grixis Shadow, it's just removal 5* and sometimes 6*.

Then don't play Lingering souls dude lol. I don't see why you would want to pay esper if you aren't playing lingering souls. 3 is probably too many in the main deck, i wouldn't go below 2 though. It played well for me, i can say with confidence i want lingering souls in my deck. Snapcaster mage is just a card that is significantly better with red cards in your deck. Play what you feel is right, i just gave my 2 cents

I just don't feel like we need the 4th one, it's not as important for us as it is for grixis because we aren't recurring them. We aren't able to bolt snap bolt for reach. We're just doing it to flashback a removal spell or a cantrip so i didn't and don't feel like we need the 4th snapcaster. 3 felt right, i'm sure it's not terrible if you want to play 4 though.

Actually, what's the point in overloading on Lingering Souls maindeck?

I like them only in the mirror (Grixis, Jund Shadow), against other Lingering Souls deck (Abzan, Mirror with w-splash, some random Esper or Mardu lists), Affinity and versus non-Jace AOT controls. For the rest (all the Combo, Big-Mana decks, Eldrazi, CoCo, Burn, Zoo, Dredge, Living End, Eldrazi&Taxes, Elves, Merfolks etcetera) they are just a hindrance for our gameplan. You want cheap threats and disruption, plus some "big" spell like Liliana in the sb for grindy match-ups. Isn't, exactly, Liliana just better in any of the previously cited archetypes (minus Affinity)?

Really, maybe you can also play them in sb, and that's fine. But, according to my experience, maindeck are just the total opposite of what I want to cast.

I had a liliana, the last hope in the 3rd souls spot for the last couple weeks. The list from Kobe came out with 3 souls so i tried it. I felt like it was fine, it makes your thought scours have a higher chance of having big upside. I also liked it because it made more room in my sideboard. I know i want 3 in my 75. It's so good in the matchups you want it. I liked the idea because i figured i would see a lot of grixis shadow, as i expect to see a lot at the invitational. I don't think liliana, the last hope is horrible vs that deck but i'd rather have lingering souls. I may move the 1 to the board again though. Also souls isn't terrible vs dredge or the eldrazi decks (It's just bad vs displacer and to an extent smasher).

It was part of my initial motivation for playing Esper, so I really wanted to make Lingering Souls work. However when I actually saw it in games it was almost never what I wanted -- usually chump blockers or chip damage when I needed to play an answer or threat.

Obviously it worked out fairly well for you, @MediumBursts. How did you use it in your matches?

Like i said above, lingering souls was a fine magic card, i consider it our reach when we need to push through the last bit of damage. I think if you aren't wanting to play lingering souls, you should be playing grixis. Souls is one of the key reasons for the white card splash.

Like i said it was a 60 person IQ so there was a lot of decks in the room. I was the only death's shadow player in the top 8. I beat 2 Goryo's vengeance decks, grixis shadow, and bant eldrazi in the swiss and double drew into top 8. I was the 7th seed. I lost both game 1's to the goryo's decks, they basically both had nuts game 1 vs me. Games 2 and 3 weren't very close in my favor. The shadow matchup was very close, i was able to orzhov charm back my shadow and eat his gurmag angler with it game 3. I did flood very badly vs the shadow player though, i think i drew 5 spells to 9 lands. The orzhov charm was the best possible draw. Bant eldrazi i fought through multiple engineered explosives to a relatively easy victory. Those 4 decks felt very manageable.

In the top 8 i played against Grixis delver, Skred red, and in the finals Eldrazi Tron. Grixis Delver felt like a very good matchup, they're trying to do the same thing but with worse cards and they're weak to lingering souls. Stubborn denial is excellent and a lot of the lists are cutting some number of terminates. The great thing about esper is they're forced to leave in their fatal pushes and they only kill 7 cards and lingering souls. It doesn't usually match up real well with our strategy. Skred red i thought would be more close but i beat him in 2 quick games. An early blood moon would probably be our doom though. I was able to keep it off the table.

In the finals i lost to Eldrazi tron. I feel like our deck is very good against 71 out of their 75 cards. The other 4 cards are chalice of the void. Game 1 i thoughtseized him and he didn't have a chalice. He drew it off the top on his turn. Game 2 i thoughtseized him and he had 2 chalices. Game 2 i had a snap in hand and a tasigur in play and a bunch of 1 mana spells. I was trying to find my echoing truth to get the chalice off the table, i hit my d sphere, which i cannot snap back. So that felt bad. That's magic though.

Deck changes: I liked everything about my list for the most part, i didn't play against any swarm decks so the tendrils were the only card i didn't get to board in, i think it's great in those matchups though, so i trust it's fine. As mentioned above with the d sphere, i think i want it to be another instant or sorcery, whether it be 2nd echoing truth or first disenchant. The orzhov charm overperformed all day. So well i thought about a 2nd one but i think it's too much of this effect. I may try to find a spot for a liliana, the last hope in the 75. I am not sure yet. And i like the 4 street wraiths (For the conversation up above). It was rare i couldn't cycle one. I plan on playing this at the invitational and will keep everyone posted on changes i make