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Mark_C
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20323
Loc: New York

Originally Posted By: btb

Is part of the “difficulty-level” of Chopin’s Fantasia Opus 49 due to the sight-reading of the big LH “jumps” to the score? (especially from m21-m32)

Are you joking?

Nothing whatsoever to do with the "sight-reading," nor with the score reading.

It's the playing.

And those measures near the beginning are far from the most demanding part of the piece! (Didn't even count measures; I didn't have to. Nothing so early in the piece is anything like that.) Musically they do present challenges, but....that's subtle.

I’ve just played through the first 32 measures on my Grotrian Steinweg and can’t see the difficulty ... but then as you know, I use a graphic system of writing music which has given me the advantage of easy prima vista playing.

In typical Chopin layout the first statement is contained in the opening 4 measures ... by m11-12 Fred grumbles a repeat of m5-6 with LH chords deep down in the bass.

However from m20 we get a jerky divergence of hands ... with the LH moving DOWN and the RH moving UP.

Might I ask (please no rocks) if you can play the first 32 measures of the Fantasia?

Thanks chaps ... I’ve dug out the Fantaisie Opus 49 disc ... and carefully listened to the rendition with the 18-page score in hand.(composed in 1841 when Chopin was 31 years old.)

But, upon coming back to the ranch (putting my six-shooter on the mantlepiece till I next see Mark) ... why would anybody want to choose this Fantaisie to impress the judges ... when there is a wagon-load of breathtaking Chopin works crying out for a daring airing?

The Fantasy structure is any composer’s excuse to bend the rules ... and frig around with tempo and indulge in inconsequential rubato ... with lashings of scalar and chromatic runs ... boring stuff.

When the chappie gets it right as with the Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66 ... we all go into adoration mode.

But I suppose the OP chappie is looking for something which is not “run-of-the-mill” (perhaps layered in dust and possibly on the skids for eternal hibernation (remembering that this work is posthumous and only published after the death of Chopin in 1849.)

My guess is that Chopin didn’t want this work to see the light of day ... he had already written his masterpiece ... Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66.

With all due respect, the real fun doesn't start until later in the piece - jump to 2:40 in this video and you'll "hear" what I mean

YT videos always stall out at work, so not sure what is happening @ 2:40, but I always thought the real 'festivities' of the piece commenced at measure 109 with the contrarily moving octaves. Few passages I can immediately think of are so prone to inaccuracies at full tempo.

Some years ago I heard a famous pianist completely bomb out at that point in concert. I felt really badly for him. (Out of respect, the pianist will remain anonymous, but it's a name everyone on this board knows.)

With all due respect, the real fun doesn't start until later in the piece - jump to 2:40 in this video and you'll "hear" what I mean

YT videos always stall out at work, so not sure what is happening @ 2:40, but I always thought the real 'festivities' of the piece commenced at measure 109 with the contrarily moving octaves. Few passages I can immediately think of are so prone to inaccuracies at full tempo.

Some years ago I heard a famous pianist completely bomb out at that point in concert. I felt really badly for him. (Out of respect, the pianist will remain anonymous, but it's a name everyone on this board knows.)

I watched the great No-Wrong-Notes Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli split a note there once...

But I think you're referring to someone else.

For a wrong-note passage, I think the coda to the March of Schumann's Fantasy in C takes the biscuit. Horowitz's comeback concert was particularly dire - even after he patched up a few notes on his so-called 'live' recording released on LP. I obtained the back-to-basics unadulterated version that Sony (much later) released on CD....

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Mark_C
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20323
Loc: New York

Originally Posted By: btb

....why would anybody want to choose this Fantaisie to impress the judges ... when there is a wagon-load of breathtaking Chopin works crying out for a daring airing?

The Fantasy structure is any composer’s excuse to bend the rules ... and frig around with tempo and indulge in inconsequential rubato ... with lashings of scalar and chromatic runs ... boring stuff.

When the chappie gets it right as with the Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66 ... we all go into adoration mode....

My guess is that Chopin didn’t want this work to see the light of day ... he had already written his masterpiece ... Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66....

Double oy.

BTW that last thing, about Chopin not wanting the piece to see the light of day, is clearly mistaken.

btb, even after being together on this site for about 100 years, I still don't know how serious you are about 90% of what you say, and I'd bet you've been pulling our leg with most of this. But you do have a unique and creative style.

My guess is that Chopin didn’t want this work to see the light of day ... he had already written his masterpiece ... Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66.Well, well ... I feel better now.

Glad you feel better - but you're wrong !!

From the Vancouver Chopin Society Website regarding the Opus 49....

"This large-scaled composition is considered one of Chopin’s masterpieces. The Fantasy opens with a solemn and mysterious march-like introduction leading to a passionate drama with a central chorale, Lento sostenuto, of unusual serenity. Niecks felt “Chopin’s genius had now reached the most perfect stage of its development and was radiating with all the intensity of which its nature was capable.” "

As for the Opus 66 Fantaisie-Impromptu - it was published against Chopin's wishes after his death. Apparently he didn't feel it was up to snuff.

Mark_C
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20323
Loc: New York

Help me out.

Is it possible that someone as knowledgeable as btb would have really thought the main difficulty was where he said, and that he would have doubted that someone even half-accomplished would be able easily to play the notes? I really can't imagine it -- and most of the time I can imagine almost anything.

I think this is a little important. It's good to know how seriously to take things.

Damon
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6416
Loc: St. Louis area

Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Help me out.

Is it possible that someone as knowledgeable as btb would have really thought the main difficulty was where he said, and that he would have doubted that someone even half-accomplished would be able easily to play the notes? I really can't imagine it -- and most of the time I can imagine almost anything.

I think this is a little important. It's good to know how seriously to take things.

Is it possible that someone as knowledgeable as btb would have really thought the main difficulty was where he said, and that he would have doubted that someone even half-accomplished would be able easily to play the notes? I really can't imagine it -- and most of the time I can imagine almost anything.

I think this is a little important. It's good to know how seriously to take things.

Mark - One thing I've learned around here is to not make assumptions about anything.......

btb was either serious - or pulling our collective legs.

Nevertheless, I offered the info above, in part, just to see how he'd react. (Testing the waters so to speak.......)

Mark_C
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20323
Loc: New York

Originally Posted By: Damon

I think your premise is faulty.

If you mean the premise that I think you mean ....I can see how one might think that, and for quite a while I easily sort of assumed it myself, until I saw (to my satisfaction, which doesn't mean it's right) that it's as I said.

Mark_C
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20323
Loc: New York

You're a poet, and you know it.

Originally Posted By: btb

And let it be said from the rooftops ... as you chaps well know ...I know better.

Yes, I thought so.

And I hope you're not serious about that last part, and I suspect you're not, among other reasons because I don't think very many homeless are able to be active on the internet, but who knows....and if you are serious, I can only say I hope you're all right.

Thanks for staying in the mix Mark ... anything I say will always have a lampooning jibe ... to unhinge any straight-laced stay-at-homes ... and remind them that there is a lot of fun out there ... if they get off their backsides and smell the roses ... sometimes a case of grab the nettle! ( but I wear gloves).

The Internet provides a marvellous phantasy world ... where the daring can go on a magic carpet ride to hitherto undreamt worlds.

PS Must just tell you that I’ve dredged up a stunning record of the King ‘s Singers ...

The Windmills of Your MindI’m a TrainFool On the HillJava JiveLife on MarsA Horse with No NameShe’s Leaving HomeGod Bless JoannaStrawberry Hills ForeverFor the Peace of all MankindA Taste of Honey

Mark_C
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20323
Loc: New York

Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

Originally Posted By: bennevis

For a wrong-note passage

I immediately think of the jumping octaves in Scherzo No. 3.

Hard for me to see the octaves in the Scherzo being nearly as risky or challenging as those in the Fantaisie -- in any event, they aren't for me, and I don't hear people messing them up or making musical sacrifices on them nearly as much as in the Fantaisie. I know that there's a lot more of them in the Scherzo, but I don't see them being nearly as hard.