I have this almost irrational belief that Matt Schaub is the answer at QB and more than that, he will turn that proverbial corner and be a great QB in the coming years, despite his turnover woes.

That being said, have the last couple of games absolve him of mistakes made this year and are we now confident that he's our franchise QB for the next five or so years?

Pros:

I really like that he's able to move the ball, which is such a nice change of the early years of 3-and-out, but he also has much improved weapons around him.
He also seems able to make a ton of different throws.
Poise under pressure seems to be there, even when the O-line isn't playing up to snuff.
Appears to be a leader on offense rather than just being the guy under center.
Really good on the play action.
Doesn't lose confidence after making mistakes, attacks the game.
Can score in crunch time.

Cons:

Turnover prone.
I'm not convinced he has the arm strength to throw great deep balls.
Durability issues in his first year, unavoidable injuries in his second year.
Too many grounding penalties, needs to figure out how to better get rid of the ball under pressure.
Not too mobile.
Red zone conversion lacking, both due to turnovers and play calling.
Woeful inability to protect the ball when under pressure and on the run when trying to make a throw, resulting in too many fumbles.

His decision making seems solid most of the time and he's able and willing to zip the ball into tight coverage and I think he's a smart and tough enough guy to really work on limiting turnovers. He needs to get better at feeling WHERE pressure is and making the judgment to pull the ball into his body instead of holding it out trying to make a pass, which allows the defender to easily swipe it out of his hands. I think these things can be learned, practiced and coached.

I honestly feel like he could be a Drew Brees type of player. If y'all remember, Brees came into the league with SD and stunk it up for a couple years. I thought he was a bust, but then he turned it around and the game, as he said, slowed down for him.

What do you all think? This had been and up and down season for QBs on our team. First Matt stunk, then Rosencopter was our savior, then Rosencopter showed us all why he is destined to be a back up, then Matt was okay, maybe we needed to draft another QB and start all over again, and now Matt seems like he's the QB this team needs.

He has been inconsistent, which frustrates me because I have, as I have stated, an irrational belief that he's "the guy" for this team, and I was never this loyal or faithful in Mr. Mittens. Has Schaub answered his critics, or can we expect to see another up and down year next year plagued with turnovers?

DiehardChris

12-29-2008, 01:26 PM

I think Schaub is the guy. I've always been a Schaub guy.

I was also worried about durability, but this season answered all that for me. I don't count cheap shots to the knees as him being injury prone.

The reality is - Schaub got his head kicked in a LOT this season... against Pittsburgh, against Tennessee, etc, etc - and he kept getting up over and over again.

I agree with your pro and con lists. Schaub, especially in the last quarter of the season - has started to show some serious leadership skills. I love how pissed off he was on the sideline in Oakland. I love how he verbally dressed-down Slaton and the offense on Sunday - and responded by setting an example HIMSELF, playing better and better as the game wore on.

It's pretty hollow if a guy is screaming at his teammates and he himself isn't playing well - but Schaub shook off a shaky start to have a great game again.

Regarding the screaming at his teammates and getting angry, that can play out very poorly if you're not respected or seen as a leader, or it can be quite effective if the guys are behind you. I'm still not really sure how his teammates view him, but I would hazard to guess if random players were asked who the team leaders are, Schaub's name would be on that list.

I did forget to list as a "pro" his ability to convert in crunch time as you mentioned. That's a quality I admire and fear in other QBs like Peyton Manning, so I have no problem with a QB who can score with the game on the line, going 90 yards if need be. It's a great confidence builder for the QB, the team and the fans.

TEXANRED

12-29-2008, 01:41 PM

The most talented QB in the world with all the pros cannot help you win if you cant stay healthy.

DiehardChris

12-29-2008, 01:42 PM

Yeah, the screaming can go the other way easily... all I can say that listening to player appearances on various Houston radio programs - Schaub's name is always the first that comes up when players are asked who some of the more vocal leaders are. Eric Winston is always talking up Schaub's status as a leader on his weekly radio show.

hookinreds

12-29-2008, 01:46 PM

Once MS got his timing down with his WRs, he appears to be very accurate. At the beginning of the season, you could see that he and AJ were not on the same page on the timing routes and AJ's reads. I think that was becuase of AJ's getting back up to game speed from his injury and limited time together in the preseason. You could see it again a little when MS first got back from his knee injury. Without looking at the actual numbers, I think he did a better job of checking down this year and spreading the ball around based on what the defense was giving him. I saw less "forced" balls into double coverage. He did a much better job of throwing the ball away instead of taking the loss/sack, but did have a few more grounding penalties than I would like after coming back from the injury. I think he keeps a cool head on the field and has earned the respect of the team.

nunusguy

12-29-2008, 01:47 PM

I'm feeling very comfortable with Schaub right now and the prospects for the Texans with him as their QB.
Granted he's still making some mistakes but he's really only got about a year and a half of starting experience dispite being in the league for 5 years. He made some really sweet throws yesterday and I saw what I perceived to be his best velocity yet on a couple passes.
But Schaub is limited without a strong arm, but Chad Pennington has an even weaker one and he's been an outstanding QB, especially as of late.
Durability ? I'm concerned to but after getting busted up real good the last 2 seasons he's lookin none the worse for the wear right now ?

IlliniJen

12-29-2008, 01:51 PM

The most talented QB in the world with all the pros cannot help you win if you cant stay healthy.

He did stay healthy this year. Taking two cheap shots into a knee is an injury most anyone would have sustained and in no way is indicative that Schaub was "injury prone" this year. If anything, he appeared tougher than last year, which is very encouraging.

Hervoyel

12-29-2008, 01:58 PM

I'd say the single biggest knock on Schaub is the turnovers. He's thrown 10 picks and fumbled the ball 10 times, losing 4.

That's 14 turnovers this year in "10.5" games. Not good. He was also sacked 23 times this year. That's not real good either and has a direct effect on the fumbles (and some effect on the picks as well).

In the first 7 games of the season he was a mess. He was sacked 16 times and fumbled 8 times. He also threw 8 of his ten interceptions during that stretch. Can you guess what we didn't do very well early in the year?

The answer would be "run the football".

Once we got a running game that could be generally relied upon to do damage on a weekly basis the team kind of came back together. Over the last four games Schaub threw 2 picks and fumbled the ball twice, losing one of them. He was sacked 7 times over the last four weeks which is still not great but it's an improvement over the pace of the first 7 weeks.

The answer seems obvious. Protect the QB and he can do the job. Run the ball and it becomes a lot easier to protect the QB. Gary Kubiak is on record repeatedly as saying they must run the football. Now we can for the first time since he got here. Next year should be pretty fun to watch.

I believe he's the answer at QB for the Texans

Vinnie

12-29-2008, 02:03 PM

I've been in his corner from the beginning too, and I do believe he's our guy. His arm strength could be better, obviously. How many times did we see AJ waiting for the ball to get to him? That's not a deal breaker for me though, he makes up for it with his ability to spread the ball around. As far as his turnovers go, it seemed like that slowed down once we found a running game. You're going to throw more interceptions and get more forced fumbles on sacks if you're forced to pass the ball alot, it's just the law of averages. The jury is still out for me on if he'll be a GREAT quarterback, like say P. Manning. That's just so rare in the league. I do think he's a good QB and will be a very good one eventually. To be honest, I never really thought he was injury prone. Guys were teeing off cheap shots left and right on him last year when he kept going down, and the blow to the knee earlier this year was obviously cheap too. Obviously teams think they can just get away with it with the Texans because while I don't watch a tremendous amount of football outside of the them, the games I do catch I don't see it happening anywhere near as often as it happens to us. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

kastofsna

12-29-2008, 02:11 PM

4th best passer rating in the AFC. YPA of 8.0. 66.1% completion. sounds good to me. he's not perfect, but QB's don't fall out of the sky and there's probably 20 teams that would love to have a guy like Schaub starting.

mexican_texan

12-29-2008, 02:13 PM

He got better in the turnover aspect since he came back from the knee injury this year. I think he's our guy, but I still want a guy like John Beck or Troy Smith as our #2

IlliniJen

12-29-2008, 02:16 PM

4th best passer rating in the AFC. YPA of 8.0. 66.1% completion. sounds good to me. he's not perfect, but QB's don't fall out of the sky and there's probably 20 teams that would love to have a guy like Schaub starting.

This is the killer for me...he's THIS CLOSE to being THE GUY. Turnovers are the key. If he can cut them down, he could be, dare I say, an elite QB in this league. Well, our RZ playcalling needs to improve so we put up some scores, but I really do feel he could get there.

His long ball strength is a bit worrying because I'm not sure if it's his arm or his accuracy. I thought he was a decent long ball guy last year, so I'm a bit puzzled. Perhaps my perception is just a bit off.

noxiousdog

12-29-2008, 02:16 PM

It totally depends on what you mean by the real deal.

He's not Manning, Brady, or Rothlesberger. But he's not Jackson, Bulger, or Dilfer either. I don't think he can be an elite qb because he doesn't have the elite qb arm strength.

If you're ok with a top 10 QB, he can be that guy. For me, that's good enough as I don't want to be picking in the top 10 anymore to nab one of the elite qbs. And, yes, while it's possible to get an elite qb out of the top 10 picks, it's much, much harder to find that guy.

SheTexan

12-29-2008, 02:21 PM

The most talented QB in the world with all the pros cannot help you win if you cant stay healthy.

The most talented QB in the world with all the pros cannot help you win if your WRs, TEs, RBs, drop or fumble the ball.

That being said, MS certainly had his share of mishaps this year, but, so have all the others. Once they all pull it together, with some better play calling on the part of Kubes, we'll see greatness on the field, in all aspects of our offense. I truly believe that!! Our O is starting to click, and it's a beautiful thing to see!!:fans:

mexican_texan

12-29-2008, 02:22 PM

He has a stronger arm than Pennington, so there goes that argument.

IlliniJen

12-29-2008, 02:26 PM

He has a stronger arm than Pennington, so there goes that argument.

Your maw maw probably has a stronger arm than Pennington.

Nawzer

12-29-2008, 02:30 PM

Yes, Matt Schaub is the real deal if he can stay healthy. The key to our offense is the running game and as long we can run the ball I think Schaub will be a successful qb in the league.

mattieuk

12-29-2008, 02:31 PM

Schaub is the real deal, especially so far as the Texans are concerned. We have a QB who can get it into the hands of our main playmaker on the offense (AJ), and that for me is a massivee start. If he had played as he had, without the great relationship he has with AJ, maybe there would be the odd question, but for me, when he drops back to pass, I'm pretty sure that he's not going to throw a poor ball.

When you take into account that he has had some pretty vile shots, it only strengtherns the claim that he is a very able starting QB, and is the future for the Texans, and lets us look to other positions in the draft and FA.

infantrycak

12-29-2008, 02:34 PM

His long ball strength is a bit worrying because I'm not sure if it's his arm or his accuracy. I thought he was a decent long ball guy last year, so I'm a bit puzzled. Perhaps my perception is just a bit off.

As a frame of reference, lets compare him to the best in the league this year (1st number completion % on passes thrown over 20 yards and 2nd number % of pass attempts thrown over 20 yards):

Looks to me like he is right in the mix. The two standouts are Warner who evidently is only pulling the long ball out when he is certain of it and Manning who is heaving it out there and praying.

PS--having a WR wait on a ball doesn't mean the QB just had no more arm strength. Hitting someone 35 yards down field is a gigantic guessing game. He has overthrown receivers as well--doesn't mean he has a strong arm--just that he misjudged it a bit.

thunderkyss

12-29-2008, 02:38 PM

His arm strength could be better, obviously. How many times did we see AJ waiting for the ball to get to him?

I'm not a Schaub fan. He is however the closest thing we've had to the answer, so far.
But to make up for that lack of armstrength, he needs to recognize that AJ will be open earlier in his route, so that he can get the ball ahead of him. If he gets his timing down with AJ, and learns to read defenses better, in my mind, then he'll be bonafide.

That's not a deal breaker for me though, he makes up for it with his ability to spread the ball around.

I'm not seeing this at all. If AJ weren't in the game, we lose. Schaub wins, when AJ gets the ball. A lot. don't get me wrong, that's what AJ is for, but the Raider game showed me, if Schaub can't get the ball to AJ, we're done.

As far as his turnovers go, it seemed like that slowed down once we found a running game. You're going to throw more interceptions and get more forced fumbles on sacks if you're forced to pass the ball alot, it's just the law of averages.

Turn Overs by a QB, are about holding the ball too long, mis-reading the defense, or not handling pressure very well.

Sage held the ball too long, that's why he kept getting stripped.

Matt is learning to cope with pressure, that's why he get's so many intentional grounding penalties. As soon as he learns to throw that into the stands, or closer to a reciever with no chance of being picked, he'll be okay.

I don't see Matt being in that elite group. I'm not saying that is necessary, especially with what Kubiak is trying to do. This is a system, that David Carr & Sage Rosenfels look pretty dang good in.

And as far as the screaming leader thing goes..... it's cool to see every now and again, but it would be just as nice to see your leader tell the guy who just messed up, "don't worry about that, I got you covered" the way you see Peyton, Farve, and Brady do.

noxiousdog

12-29-2008, 02:41 PM

He has a stronger arm than Pennington, so there goes that argument.

You think Pennington is elite?

Second Honeymoon

12-29-2008, 02:44 PM

Schaub and to some extent Sage have both done a pretty darn good job in helping turn things around for our offense. You have to remember where we came from. We were utterly pathetic and completely inept for 5 years outside of the occassional screen pass to DD or AJ turning 5 yards into 50. Now we have balance, leadership, and we are light years ahead of where we were. I credit Kubes with a lot of that obviously, but I think the QBs have had a lot to do with that as well.

I did read on this thread about someone mentioning Schaub's propensity to get intentional grounding called against him but I think most of those have been Duane Brown getting totally owned and at least he is attempting to avoid the sack. He needs to watch how Peyton does it. No one avoids an inavoidable sack like Peyton. Hopefully they can coach him up on that because it makes all the difference in the word: avoiding sacks/grounding penalties.

Thorn

12-29-2008, 02:51 PM

Schaub is the real deal because he's better than at least half, if not more, than the rest of the starting QBs in the NFL.

Doesn't mean he is without fault, because he most certainly is not. This tendency of his to throw the ball up for grabs before getting sacked (and getting us a illegal ground call) needs to stop. I could reel off a few more things I don't care for about him, but what's the point? There are teams in the NFL right now that would kill to have our passing game.

mexican_texan

12-29-2008, 02:53 PM

You think Pennington is elite?
This season, yes.

Runner

12-29-2008, 03:01 PM

Is Schaub the real deal? I guess that will be the $10M question next year. I'd be more comfortable if he played 14-16 games next season. Yes I know he got injured by cheap shots this year.

Vinnie

12-29-2008, 03:07 PM

I'm not seeing this at all. If AJ weren't in the game, we lose. Schaub wins, when AJ gets the ball. A lot. don't get me wrong, that's what AJ is for, but the Raider game showed me, if Schaub can't get the ball to AJ, we're done.

Really? It seems to me he gets the ball to OD, Walter, Davis and even Anderson pretty consistantly. No doubt AJ is his favorite target, but he'd be any QB's favorite target like you said. He threw for 255 yards in that game, only 19 to AJ. What that game showed me is if our defense allows itself to be pushed all over the field and we can't get a run game going (especially in the RZ) we lose every time.

noxiousdog

12-29-2008, 03:11 PM

This season, yes.

That doesn't help for personnel decisions in the off season.

Regardless, I'd like to see the argument that labels Pennington as elite.

Ole Miss Texan

12-29-2008, 03:19 PM

So, is Schaub the real deal yet?
I think so. I expect to see his turnovers go down next season. He's shown me he has the potential to be a great QB for this team.

Kaiser Toro

12-29-2008, 03:39 PM

I count 19 QBs that had higher cap hits for their respective teams (Steve McNair was still floating on the Ravens) than Schaub. This year he was the real deal when healthy. Next year he is a $10m hit on our cap and better stay healthy for our sake and Kubiak's.

thunderkyss

12-29-2008, 03:41 PM

Really? It seems to me he gets the ball to OD, Walter, Davis and even Anderson pretty consistantly. No doubt AJ is his favorite target, but he'd be any QB's favorite target like you said. He threw for 255 yards in that game, only 19 to AJ. What that game showed me is if our defense allows itself to be pushed all over the field and we can't get a run game going (especially in the RZ) we lose every time.

Fair enough.

mexican_texan

12-29-2008, 03:49 PM

That doesn't help for personnel decisions in the off season.

Regardless, I'd like to see the argument that labels Pennington as elite.
He played better than at least 25 QBs and led his team to the confrence crown. That's elite, ain't it?

noxiousdog

12-29-2008, 03:54 PM

He played better than at least 25 QBs and led his team to the confrence crown. That's elite, ain't it?

The conference crown? You mean division?

No, winning your division doesn't make you elite any more than winning a Super Bowl makes Dilfer elite.

If there is any such thing as an 'elite single season quarterback' it would require being considered for MVP.

It would not be a guy that was 9th in yards and 12th in TDs.

infantrycak

12-29-2008, 04:03 PM

If there is any such thing as an 'elite single season quarterback' it would require being considered for MVP.

He is being discussed by the national media for MVP.

PHAROAH

12-29-2008, 04:03 PM

Schaub is the guy for now but I think that we need to draft another good QB to compete with him and to push him and it never hurt to have enough good QB's on the team in case one goes down.

noxiousdog

12-29-2008, 04:10 PM

He is being discussed by the national media for MVP.

It wouldn't be the dumbest thing the national media has ever done, but it would be close.

Norg

12-29-2008, 04:33 PM

Nope intill he takes us to the playoffs on a constent basis he will not be the guy for us IMO

HOU-TEX

12-29-2008, 04:35 PM

Nope intill he takes us to the playoffs on a constent basis he will not be the guy for us IMO

:confused: Wha...Huh?

TheCD

12-29-2008, 04:49 PM

And as far as the screaming leader thing goes..... it's cool to see every now and again, but it would be just as nice to see your leader tell the guy who just messed up, "don't worry about that, I got you covered" the way you see Peyton, Farve, and Brady do.

I completely understand what you're saying...but anytime the Colts are having a bad game, it's a safe bet Peyton will be over there yelling at his offensive line. It happens every time they play bad.

Hardcore Texan

12-29-2008, 06:30 PM

If Schaub can get better protection next year to avoid some of the pounding, continuing development of the run game and hopefully bringing in a bruiser to compliment Slaton, and the continuance of the passing game with AJ, KW, and OD, Schaub will be great next year. Dare I say probowl caliber. He's got all the tools to be a great QB, I think we keep his uniform a little cleaner next year he'll prove it.

Goatcheese

12-29-2008, 07:35 PM

Matt Schaub's 2nd year as a starter projects out better than Peyton Manning's.

Touch the sig.

mattieuk

12-29-2008, 08:01 PM

Matt Schaub's 2nd year as a starter projects out better than Peyton Manning's.

Touch the sig.

On that progression curve then...Peyton was 33 TD's and 15 Int's in his third year. I'll take more than 33 passing TD's from Schaub next year :)

In comaprison his season does look even better though! (Plus he's missed games this year as well). Matt's figures are significantly up on last year. His main problem this year (other than being taken out of games by cheap shots) has been the fumbling...thats what we've gotta get fixed for next year now.

junior

12-29-2008, 09:24 PM

He played better than at least 25 QBs and led his team to the confrence crown. That's elite, ain't it?

so why dont we get Trent Dilfer he won a Super Bowl so he must be elite, maybe Neil O'Donnel or Mark Rypien or Jeff Hostetler or I think you get the point.

Pennington is far from elite I dont care how many games the Dolphins win.

By your own definition Schaub would be an average to below average QB this year. I'm not a big fan of his but he did have a good season, we are picking 15th out of 32 so that means there were 17 other qbs that are better than Schaub.

And all you praising his durability except for the knee injury remember there is no Rosencopter if Schaub plays through his tummy ache

GP

12-29-2008, 09:26 PM

It's like Schaub snapped out of his Boo Radley zombie-like personality.

I think the guy saw the Rosencopter incident, and he realized he could beat out Sage. Until that point, I have to think that Schaub doubted himself (or felt he might not be "the guy").

Next year will be interesting. I didn't peg him for finishing the way he has this season. Major props to the guy.

With the bullcrap we've seen on defense, via RS, I can live with Schaub staying at QB. That's no longer as big of a question mark as it had been.

Kubiak: Please get the defense attended to. You're a good defense away from the playoffs.

Hervoyel

12-29-2008, 09:34 PM

so why dont we get Trent Dilfer he won a Super Bowl so he must be elite, maybe Neil O'Donnel or Mark Rypien or Jeff Hostetler or I think you get the point.

Pennington is far from elite I dont care how many games the Dolphins win.

By your own definition Schaub would be an average to below average QB this year. I'm not a big fan of his but he did have a good season, we are picking 15th out of 32 so that means there were 17 other qbs that are better than Schaub.

And all you praising his durability except for the knee injury remember there is no Rosencopter if Schaub plays through his tummy ache

The guy got sick and couldn't play. It happens to everyone at some point. You ever get so sick you had to call in and couldn't come to work? Of course you have. Schaub looked like death warmed over that night on the sidelines and saying he's responsible for the loss to the Colts is some sad, weak shit right there.

Rosencopter was responsible for "Rosencopter" and nobody else.

Hervoyel

12-29-2008, 09:37 PM

It's like Schaub snapped out of his Boo Radley zombie-like personality.

I think the guy saw the Rosencopter incident, and he realized he could beat out Sage. Until that point, I have to think that Schaub doubted himself (or felt he might not be "the guy").

Next year will be interesting. I didn't peg him for finishing the way he has this season. Major props to the guy.

With the bullcrap we've seen on defense, via RS, I can live with Schaub staying at QB. That's no longer as big of a question mark as it had been.

Kubiak: Please get the defense attended to. You're a good defense away from the playoffs.

That's not what I get from this year. I think he just needed the reps and then when he got enough of them we started to see him "morph" into the QB we're all hoping he becomes.

kastofsna

12-29-2008, 09:47 PM

lol Pennington has been one of the best quarterbacks in the league this year, anyone who's watched any handful of Dolphins games would see that. unless you've already formed your opinion about him beforehand, of course.

infantrycak

12-29-2008, 09:55 PM

Pennington is far from elite I dont care how many games the Dolphins win.

I'm not going to argue over exactly where the border for elite lies, but Pennington has been very good this year--2nd highest QB rating in the NFL isn't chicken feed.

And all you praising his durability except for the knee injury remember there is no Rosencopter if Schaub plays through his tummy ache

There's a sentence that never should have been typed.

On top of the silly characterization of being hospitalized and receiving multiple IV's as a tummy ache, you might want to fact check before exposing your derriere--Schaub asked to play and Kubiak made the call not to start him.

lol Pennington has been one of the best quarterbacks in the league this year, anyone who's watched any handful of Dolphins games would see that. unless you've already formed your opinion about him beforehand, of course.

Yup--and his oh so weak arm didn't stop him from hitting multiple 20+ and at least one 40+ yard tosses to win that last game.

Hardcore Texan

12-29-2008, 10:15 PM

so why dont we get Trent Dilfer he won a Super Bowl so he must be elite, maybe Neil O'Donnel or Mark Rypien or Jeff Hostetler or I think you get the point.

Pennington is far from elite I dont care how many games the Dolphins win.

By your own definition Schaub would be an average to below average QB this year. I'm not a big fan of his but he did have a good season, we are picking 15th out of 32 so that means there were 17 other qbs that are better than Schaub.

And all you praising his durability except for the knee injury remember there is no Rosencopter if Schaub plays through his tummy ache

Wow, I disagree with the entire post especially the last couple of lines. I think you must have an agenda against Schaub for those irresponsible comments.

IMA TEXAN

12-29-2008, 10:18 PM

I'm not going to argue over exactly where the border for elite lies, but Pennington has been very good this year--2nd highest QB rating in the NFL isn't chicken feed.

There's a sentence that never should have been typed.

On top of the silly characterization of being hospitalized and receiving multiple IV's as a tummy ache, you might want to fact check before exposing your derriere--Schaub asked to play and Kubiak made the call not to start him.

Yup--and his oh so weak arm didn't stop him from hitting multiple 20+ and at least one 40+ yard tosses to win that last game.
Pennington had a QB rating of 97.4 - as you say 2nd best in the league this year. The all time career leader in QB rating is Steve Young at 96.8 so I think over 97 qualifies as "elite" - at least for this year. If Pennington isn't in consideration for elite status then probably only Brady and P. Manning meet the definition.

I guess if the black knight only had a "flesh wound" then Schaub only had a "tummyache".

Arm strength is bogus. Get me a QB who can hit receivers 25 to 35 yards downfield consistently over one with poor accuracy who can hang 85 yard jumpballs in the air.

kastofsna

12-29-2008, 10:25 PM

Rivers and Pennington, both knocked for arm strength for years now. same with Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, for that matter. a cannon for an arm will help you get away with things, but if you're playing a high level with an average arm, that says even more about you as a quarterback.

Vinny

12-29-2008, 10:31 PM

Arm strength is bogus. Get me a QB who can hit receivers 25 to 35 yards downfield consistently over one with poor accuracy who can hang 85 yard jumpballs in the air.I wouldn't say arm strength is bogus because it limits what you can do offensively if you have a limited arm. A big arm gives you the ability to throw the deep out...jumpballs aren't exactly what any scout ever looks for but you have to have some brains to go with that rare elite arm....For instance, Jeff George had a million dollar arm but a ten cent mind. He had a wonderful spiral and a beautiful pass, but he was a rotten decision maker...you need both to be elite. Guys like Pennington, Delhomme, and Hasselbeck are all good enough to take teams to the SB without the elite arm...but it's nice to have a guy who can make every throw like John Elway.....you know, the John Elway that won 12 playoff games and went to 5 Super Bowls...since then the Broncos have won one playoff game in all the years combined after he left the team. He is a good example of an "elite armed QB".

IMA TEXAN

12-29-2008, 10:32 PM

I think the concern about Schaub committing too many turnovers is overblown. He had two bad games to start the year. He threw 5 of his 10 interceptions in those two games. So his last 8.5 games he only had 5 interceptions.

Schaub's overall QB rating for the year was 92.7 - 7th overall in the NFL and ahead of heavily praised QBs Matt Cassel, Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Jay Cutler, Brett Favre, Joe Flacco, and Ben Roethisberger. Schaub's QB rating for the season without the first two games is over 102.

If you get a QB rating of almost 93 your QB play may be not "elite" but it is top 10 and you should worry about getting all the other areas of your team into the top 10 before you worry about QB. If your QB rating is over 102 then your QB play is elite.

Vinny

12-29-2008, 10:34 PM

If you get a QB rating of almost 93 your QB play may be not "elite" but it is top 10 and you should worry about getting all the other areas of your team into the top 10 before you worry about QB. If your QB rating is over 102 then your QB play is elite.
I'd put Schaub in the Hasselbeck, Delhomme class of QB...some limitations but a good enough arm to go with a mind quick enough to make important decisions on the fly. These guys can lead teams to the big game and thats all you need out of your QB since the "elite" guy is fairly rare.

GP

12-29-2008, 10:39 PM

Reading the article about Mangini, it seems maybe Mangini was the reason Pennington didn't do so well.

If we think Kubiak has made bad gameday calls, check out this article on Mangini at foxsports.com: Mangini article by Alex Marvez (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9001016/Mangini-has-Favre-to-thank-for-pink-slip)

All these ex-Patriots coaches are not so hot when out on their own. And superstar players, and lots of them, can make coaches look a lot better than they are.

I know you guys think I'm awful for not being particular about Schaub, but I in no way whatsoever think the guy chickened out or was "weak" for not being able to play on Rosencopter day. I have enough class to know that that Schaub is always willing to lead. I just questioned his ability to avoid the hits and/or be able to overcome the injuries because let's face it: You can't keep taking those sorts of injuries over and over.

I was not so happy with Meyers (C) in this game. He looked like a guy who isn't fitting in along the line. Jittery. Unfocused. We need to solidify the middle of the line, IMO. The rush up the middle is brutal.

Hardcore Texan

12-29-2008, 10:50 PM

I wouldn't say arm strength is bogus because it limits what you can do offensively if you have a limited arm. A big arm gives you the ability to throw the deep out...jumpballs aren't exactly what any scout ever looks for but you have to have some brains to go with that rare elite arm....Jeff George had a million dollar arm but a ten cent mind....you need both to be elite. Guys like Pennington, Delhomme, and Hasselbeck are all good enough to take teams to the SB without the elite arm...but it's nice to have a guy who can make every throw like John Elway.....you know, the John Elway that won 12 playoff games and went to 5 Super Bowls...since then the Broncos have won one playoff game in all the years combined after he left the team. He is a good example of an "elite armed QB".

There is certainly a level of cannon arm like Cutler and or even Jamarcus Russell that I think make fans say that (or Elway from yesteryear), the kind of arm that can deliver a laser while back peddling. But other than that as long as most NFL QB's have time to step into their throws they will get it there. This is where Schaub falls for me, he has very adequate arm strength but can not fire lasers without being able to apply the mechanics. All in all he I think he can make all the throws, plus has the brains and the leadership qualities. I didn't feel this way at the start of the season, but he has proven himself to me while watching him do the little things.

I particulary like this throw to OD at the 3:10 mark. In fact there are a lot of passes with nice placement in this vid.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80daf888

IMA TEXAN

12-29-2008, 10:53 PM

I wouldn't say arm strength is bogus because it limits what you can do offensively if you have a limited arm. A big arm gives you the ability to throw the deep out...jumpballs aren't exactly what any scout ever looks for but you have to have some brains to go with that rare elite arm....Jeff George had a million dollar arm but a ten cent mind....you need both to be elite. Guys like Pennington, Delhomme, and Hasselbeck are all good enough to take teams to the SB without the elite arm...but it's nice to have a guy who can make every throw like John Elway.....you know, the John Elway that won 12 playoff games and went to 5 Super Bowls...since then the Broncos have won one playoff game in all the years combined after he left the team. He is a good example of an "elite armed QB".
Sure if I could have Superman I would. (Of course then arm strength wouldn't matter because he could just run for a TD out of the wildcat on every play.) The 65 yard deep out is great - but how many times do you really need that? If my QB can hit receivers 30 something yards downfield let them run for yards after catch.

Again, if the list of "elite" is to be Sammy Baugh, John Elway, Peyton Manning (only if he wins another SuperBowl) and Tom Brady then while I would love to have one of those guys I don't think it makes sense to make upgrading the QB spot a priority because you have a second tier QB like Sid Luckman, Roger Staubach, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Pennington, Delhomme, Hasselbeck, or Matt Schaub. While I agree that Elway was great, he didn't win a SuperBowl until Terrell Davis gave him an "elite" running game his last two years.

Rivers and Pennington, both knocked for arm strength for years now. same with Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, for that matter. a cannon for an arm will help you get away with things, but if you're playing a high level with an average arm, that says even more about you as a quarterback.
What he said.

While adding great arm strength to these guys would be nice, I don't want to throw Schaub overboard (and probably trade Mario, Andre, and DeMeco) to take a chance on the next strong armed guy. There's a lot more Ryan Leafs out there than John Elways.

Vinny

12-29-2008, 10:55 PM

While I agree that Elway was great, he didn't win a SuperBowl until Terrell Davis gave him an "elite" running game his last two years.
12 playoff victories and 5 Super Bowls on John Elway QB'd teams. Please give me an estimate of what year it will be when the Texans have done this.

IMA TEXAN

12-29-2008, 10:58 PM

I'd put Schaub in the Hasselbeck, Delhomme class of QB...some limitations but a good enough arm to go with a mind quick enough to make important decisions on the fly. These guys can lead teams to the big game and thats all you need out of your QB since the "elite" guy is fairly rare.

AMEN! Same point I was trying to make: if you have better than average don't worry that you don't have "elite". Unless you don't have room for all your Vince Lombardi trophies you probably have some positions to upgrade that are not better than average.

GuerillaBlack

12-29-2008, 11:02 PM

Nope intill he takes us to the playoffs on a constent basis he will not be the guy for us IMO

I'm sorry, but your posts always confuse me.

IMA TEXAN

12-29-2008, 11:07 PM

12 playoff victories and 5 Super Bowls on John Elway QB'd teams. Please give me an estimate of what year it will be when the Texans have done this.
Good grief. So the only reason the Texans haven't done this is because Schaub's arm isn't strong enough. It's even his fault for the years he wasn't here.

I'll say if the Texans have Schaub at QB, a 2000 yard rusher every year, and a one of the top 3 defenses in the league every year - approximately 2015. Only that will include more than 2 Super Bowl wins.

You forgot to mention that Michael Jordan sucks because Bill Russell won 11 championships in 13 years.

kastofsna

12-29-2008, 11:13 PM

While I agree that Elway was great, he didn't win a SuperBowl until Terrell Davis gave him an "elite" running game his last two years.

and Manning didn't win a Super Bowl till his defense stepped up. that's the way it works. no QB wins it all on their own. but what Elway did without a running game is nothing short of remarkable.

infantrycak

12-29-2008, 11:27 PM

Wait, hold it, stop the presses. Have we actually made it through 10 posts in which the words Elway, Manning and Schaub have appeared in the same post and some clown hasn't come along and said Schaub is no Elway? Holy crap!

OK carry on.

Oops, back on topic. Of course having a stronger arm is always nice, as are better judgment, better speed, better pocket presence, better accuracy, etc. I think Schaub's combination is good enough to be very good and possibly run a number of years as top 5 in many categories. That is good enough for the Texans to succeed as a team.

Norg

12-29-2008, 11:37 PM

I'm sorry, but your posts always confuse me.

What iam saying is Schaub has not proven himself 2 me

what if we got 7-9 next year then what ..........

Kaiser Toro

12-29-2008, 11:39 PM

What iam saying is Schaub is not proven himself 2 me

what if we got 7-9 next year then what ..........

I believe you make a great point here. What if we got 5-11, then what?

IlliniJen

12-29-2008, 11:39 PM

What iam saying is Schaub has not proven himself 2 me

what if we got 7-9 next year then what ..........

Then we take a look at the WHOLE package and not just Schaub. Last I checked, we have to field a defense for about 1/2 the time on the field. A QB alone cannot make this team amazing.

Norg

12-29-2008, 11:50 PM

I believe you make a great point here. What if we got 5-11, then what?

Then The talks of Schaub's head will go on all season

Iam pretty sure Dallas is getting pretty tired of romo

why should we be any different

how long will we give Matt 5 years like we gave carr

lets say is 2011 and matt & the texans still have not seen playoffs then what

hes on year 3 times a ticking

GuerillaBlack

12-30-2008, 12:05 AM

Then The talks of Schaub's head will go on all season

Iam pretty sure Dallas is getting pretty tired of romo

why should we be any different

how long will we give Matt 5 years like we gave carr

lets say is 2011 and matt & the texans still have not seen playoffs then what

hes on year 3 times a ticking

It's is second year for us and his is 100x better than Carr! Matt has proven himself. He just needs to work on those fumbles. His interceptions have been cut down since our running game has improved.

IlliniJen

12-30-2008, 12:09 AM

Then The talks of Schaub's head will go on all season

Iam pretty sure Dallas is getting pretty tired of romo

why should we be any different

how long will we give Matt 5 years like we gave carr

lets say is 2011 and matt & the texans still have not seen playoffs then what

hes on year 3 times a ticking

Hmmmm...difference is that Carr sucks and Schaub doesn't. He doesn't operate in a vacuum - there are folks around him that sink or swim on their own. We can have a great offense, but if our defense gives up the booty, that's NOT on the offense or the QB.

And comparing us to Dallas is not apt since that team is severely dysfunctional in ways we could only hope to be after a weekend meth and hooker binge.

Your thought process both bewilders and amuses me, though.

infantrycak

12-30-2008, 12:13 AM

His interceptions have been cut down since our running game has improved.

His INT's have gone down since facing two division winners with a combined record of 25 and 7 with 95 sacks and 40 INT's.

noxiousdog

12-30-2008, 12:18 AM

lol Pennington has been one of the best quarterbacks in the league this year, anyone who's watched any handful of Dolphins games would see that. unless you've already formed your opinion about him beforehand, of course.

Pennington has been one of the best in the league for the past decade.... when healthy.

But lets be real, despite the QB rating (which overly rewards accuracy and underrates throwing downfield) the Miami offense was only 21st in points scored. I'm not dropping an 'elite' label on a QB that leads an offense that poor.

noxiousdog

12-30-2008, 12:19 AM

I'd put Schaub in the Hasselbeck, Delhomme class of QB...some limitations but a good enough arm to go with a mind quick enough to make important decisions on the fly. These guys can lead teams to the big game and thats all you need out of your QB since the "elite" guy is fairly rare.

I agree 100%.

Norg

12-30-2008, 12:26 AM

It's is second year for us and his is 100x better than Carr! Matt has proven himself. He just needs to work on those fumbles. His interceptions have been cut down since our running game has improved.

iam not comparing him to carr iam just saying how long is it going to take till we go to the playoffs with Matt under the helm ??????

texanhead08

12-30-2008, 12:28 AM

We have much bigger holes on this team than QB. I think we can win with Schaub and getting a better defense and better at executing in the red zone will help us realize this goal. Its good to finally see noone calling for Rosencopter to be the starting QB at least.

Vinnie

12-30-2008, 01:06 AM

iam not comparing him to carr iam just saying how long is it going to take till we go to the playoffs with Matt under the helm ??????

I say next season. With any amount of luck in the post season decision making regarding coaching, draft choices and FA moves, he will. He'll have to have a VY-esque meltdown not to. I don't see that happening.

V3rm0nt3r

12-30-2008, 01:30 AM

This offense is rated what? 3rd? Of course he's set in H-Town for at LEAST the next 2 years. Why are we talking about when this guy will be fired? I know as Texans fans we're usually forced to play the cynical card to keep being hurt when our optimism gets thrown into our faces but this team just won 4 of their last 5 games. This offense needs one thing in my opinion for next year and that's a change of pace back to compliment Slaton. That's it. Don't even LOOK at the rest of the offense. Put the effort into the D.

LonerATO

12-30-2008, 01:37 AM

Hmmmm...difference is that Carr sucks and Schaub doesn't. He doesn't operate in a vacuum - there are folks around him that sink or swim on their own. We can have a great offense, but if our defense gives up the booty, that's NOT on the offense or the QB.

And comparing us to Dallas is not apt since that team is severely dysfunctional in ways we could only hope to be after a weekend meth and hooker binge.

Your thought process both bewilders and amuses me, though.

Texan's offense does its fair share of giving up the booty in turnovers. Hell I think the Texan's lost 3 games this year based off turnovers alone

GuerillaBlack

12-30-2008, 01:48 AM

This offense is rated what? 3rd? Of course he's set in H-Town for at LEAST the next 2 years. Why are we talking about when this guy will be fired? I know as Texans fans we're usually forced to play the cynical card to keep being hurt when our optimism gets thrown into our faces but this team just won 4 of their last 5 games. This offense needs one thing in my opinion for next year and that's a change of pace back to compliment Slaton. That's it. Don't even LOOK at the rest of the offense. Put the effort into the D.

Hell to the mother ****ing yeah.

michaelm

12-30-2008, 02:31 AM

how long will we give Matt 5 years like we gave carr

This is awesome and funny to me. A riddle that solves itself!

michaelm

12-30-2008, 02:32 AM

how long will we give Matt 5 years like we gave carr

Oh yeah, I forgot to say that I'm gonna go with 5. Final answer.

GuerillaBlack

12-30-2008, 02:40 AM

This is awesome and funny to me. A riddle that solves itself!

roffles.

i loves me some norg.

HoustonFrog

12-30-2008, 10:27 AM

iam not comparing him to carr iam just saying how long is it going to take till we go to the playoffs with Matt under the helm ??????

I've already seen more from him than Carr ever showed thus you would hope next year.

ObsiWan

12-30-2008, 11:04 AM

This is the killer for me...he's THIS CLOSE to being THE GUY. Turnovers are the key. If he can cut them down, he could be, dare I say, an elite QB in this league. Well, our RZ playcalling needs to improve so we put up some scores, but I really do feel he could get there.

His long ball strength is a bit worrying because I'm not sure if it's his arm or his accuracy. I thought he was a decent long ball guy last year, so I'm a bit puzzled. Perhaps my perception is just a bit off.

Matt's turnovers and arm strength are my biggest concerns.

Turnovers can be fixed - or at least reduced - by being smarter with the ball. I have faith that Matt and Kubes will work on the decision making thing and get that under control.

Arm strength cannot be taught. I don't know if he doesn't have it or misjudges how fast/far his WRs are down field or just tends to put too much air under long throws. But I have noticed that if its a 35/40 yd throw or longer, our guys end up having to slow down and wait for the ball. The long throw to AJ against the Bears was a classic example. AJ had to almost stop and wait for the ball. Don't know how one fixes that.

threetoedpete

12-30-2008, 11:22 AM

Well when we got him, and I saw the two twos floating off to Atlanta, I posted he looked like Chris Chandler to me. I don't think we've made back the investment we spent on him yet. If he's clean he produces. The year he makes sixteen games as a starter, that will be his first. I believe he's good enough to get us to fourteen wins next year. If they lose a couple of o-line guys....we'll struggle in again at 8-8.

Mike Kerns

12-30-2008, 11:22 AM

I consider him a lot like Tracy McGrady: If he can just stay on the field, he will produce. However, health always seems to be the problem.

I like Schaub though and never hopped on the Rosen-copter bandwagon. I have always said that there is a reason that Sage is a backup. And I still stick by that.

Mike Kerns

12-30-2008, 11:24 AM

I believe he's good enough to get us to fourteen wins next year.

Wow! And I thought I was optimistic. :tiphat:

ObsiWan

12-30-2008, 11:28 AM

What iam saying is Schaub has not proven himself 2 me

what if we got 7-9 next year then what ..........

what if Schaub throws for 5,000 yds, 30 TDs, only 5 INTs and we still go 7-9? do YOU still blame Schaub?

Or what if Schaub throws for 2,500 yds, 15 TDs, and 15 INTs but we make it to the AFC championship game?

what if a frog had wings.....?

ObsiWan

12-30-2008, 11:31 AM

Then The talks of Schaub's head will go on all season

Iam pretty sure Dallas is getting pretty tired of romo

why should we be any different

how long will we give Matt 5 years like we gave carr

lets say is 2011 and matt & the texans still have not seen playoffs then what

hes on year 3 times a ticking

Did I read that correctly??
:mcnugget:
Implying that we should follow ANY example set by the Cowpatties should be grounds for banishment!

ObsiWan

12-30-2008, 11:36 AM

Well when we got him, and I saw the two twos floating off to Atlanta, I posted he looked like Chris Chandler to me. I don't think we've made back the investment we spent on him yet. If he's clean he produces. The year he makes sixteen games as a starter, that will be his first. I believe he's good enough to get us to fourteen wins next year. If they lose a couple of o-line guys....we'll struggle in again at 8-8.

He's good enough to put up enough points for that; i.e., 24-27 pts/game. Don't know if our defense will improve enough to keep the other guys under 30. That's what happened to us early this year - the D couldn't hold anyone under 30 pts. If the D starts holding the other guys under 21 pts/game and we repeat the offensive output of this year, we can win 11-13 games.

Hooston Texan

12-30-2008, 12:58 PM

4th best passer rating in the AFC. YPA of 8.0. 66.1% completion. sounds good to me. he's not perfect, but QB's don't fall out of the sky and there's probably 20 teams that would love to have a guy like Schaub starting.

Well, a pretty darned good one sure fell out of the sky for you guys.

IlliniJen

12-30-2008, 01:07 PM

Matt's turnovers and arm strength are my biggest concerns.

Turnovers can be fixed - or at least reduced - by being smarter with the ball. I have faith that Matt and Kubes will work on the decision making thing and get that under control.

Arm strength cannot be taught. I don't know if he doesn't have it or misjudges how fast/far his WRs are down field or just tends to put too much air under long throws. But I have noticed that if its a 35/40 yd throw or longer, our guys end up having to slow down and wait for the ball. The long throw to AJ against the Bears was a classic example. AJ had to almost stop and wait for the ball. Don't know how one fixes that.

Thanks for clearing that up on arm strength. I don't know what I was watching last year, but I thought he had some good throws to the other Andre (Davis) who is a burner...and who, btw, I think really disappeared this year. Was he #4 behind DA?

ObsiWan

12-30-2008, 02:00 PM

Thanks for clearing that up on arm strength. I don't know what I was watching last year, but I thought he had some good throws to the other Andre (Davis) who is a burner...and who, btw, I think really disappeared this year. Was he #4 behind DA?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. It looked like AD came into the game as the #2 when AJ needed a blow or whenever they wanted AJ in the slot. It seemed like we wasted a good talent by not using his speed as a second downfield threat more often.

I'm sorry but there's no way David (too short) Anderson should hit the field before Andre Davis.

And about my lack of arm strength theory, that's all it is... ...even worse, its an opinion - you know what they say about those.

Hooston Texan

12-31-2008, 01:11 AM

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. It looked like AD came into the game as the #2 when AJ needed a blow or whenever they wanted AJ in the slot. It seemed like we wasted a good talent by not using his speed as a second downfield threat more often.

I'm sorry but there's no way David (too short) Anderson should hit the field before Andre Davis.

Davis is not a slot receiver, but that is the role we tried to have him play this year. Davis is a pure burner who functions best as a #1 or #2 wideout; indeed, his big numbers last year came when AJ was out and he became our #1. Of course, he is not in AJ's league, but his ability to make plays downfield makes him a decent #1 option--as a backup for AJ, we could do much, much, much worse.

This year, with AJ healthy and Walter firmly entrenched opposite him, the slots are the only openings for the other wideouts. Davis is simply not well-suited for the slot: that spot rewards the shifty more than the speedy. Anderson is the closest thing we have to a pure slot, and he's nobody's ideal for the position. The best slot receiver in Houston just wrapped up his career for Rice a couple hours ago.