Breaking: Ex-Cop Dorner in Shootout at Big Bear Lake

KTLA 5 in Los Angeles is reporting that ex-cop Christopher Dorner has been involved in a shootout with police in Big Bear. One or two police officers have been reported wounded; the situation is rapidly developing…

BIG BEAR, Calif. — Christopher Dorner was engaged in a shootout with federal authorities in the Big Bear area Tuesday, a law enforcement source told The Times.

The shooting occurred after Dorner burglarized a home, tied up a couple and stole their car, the source said.

It was not immediately clear whether Dorner was in custody.

A second source said there was an active crime scene but did not have details.

Law enforcement officials were swarming the area.

UPDATE at 2/12/13 2:40:23 pm

Police have confirmed that Dorner is holed up in the cabin at lower right of the image above. Two policemen have been shot and medevac’ed out.

UPDATE at 2/12/13 2:56:51 pm

LA Times saying #Dorner broke into a cabin “days ago” & held couple hostage until this morning. Then tried to find daylight.

I think the smoke grenades are being set off by the police to give cover as their men get closer to the cabin. I have a nephew who’s a SWAT supervisor with LAPD and is in the area. We’re hoping that he gets out safe.

Some people say to angle the extensions up and close the gap between your hands and your chin. Some people say to turn the saddle so it points slightly to one side. Whatever makes you comfortable, because that’s what’s most efficient.

What I wouldn’t give for actual weather. And seasons. Or even a storm with wind, at this point.

I’m sick of winter. Snow. Snow. Snow. Snow. Snow. Snow. Snow.

GAAHH!

I miss the monoseason of Los Angeles from time to time. I’m hoping (and praying to any and all deities that might have the inclination to listen to me) that this year I’ll be able to go to Uganda. Which has one season. Warm.

I miss the monoseason of Los Angeles from time to time. I’m hoping (and praying to any and all deities that might have the inclination to listen to me) that this year I’ll be able to go to Uganda. Which has one season. Warm.

Some people say to angle the extensions up and close the gap between your hands and your chin. Some people say to turn the saddle so it points slightly to one side. Whatever makes you comfortable, because that’s what’s most efficient.

I put the elbow pads as close to center as possible and they’re just out of my way when I’m holding the ends of the bars. Nice little 90 minute loop though…when I knock another 10 minutes off of it (used to take me 1:40…now takes me 1:30), I’ll add another 5 mile spur with some more rollers to keep the ride around an hour and a half.

I put the elbow pads as close to center as possible and they’re just out of my way when I’m holding the ends of the bars. Nice little 90 minute loop though…when I knock another 10 minutes off of it (used to take me 1:40…now takes me 1:30), I’ll add another 5 mile spur with some more rollers to keep the ride around an hour and a half.

When I get down closer to 200lbs I’m getting an all carbon bike. don’t know if I want to spend the money on a Jamis…think I’ll try to keep it around $2500 when I buy one. Bought my wife a carbon Scott bike last year and she loves it. I’ve still got about 35 lbs to go though (but I’m down 32 from last March).

he’s in the cabin, they’re taking up armored vehicles, the media has been ordered away, the police are ready to “escalate” the situation, and the internet, a sizable chunk of it anyway, is transfixed, in real time.

Know it’s weird to bring up now, but I do hope all those secessionist nutbars are paying close attention to what’s happening right now. Because this is very likely how their “war” against the federal government is going to end.

Sorry. Actually, I think the last dial-up here in the Czech Republic was phased out sometime in 2005. It’s all high-speed here. Cable internet is popular if you have UPC cable over here. Not the fastest, though. 25 Mbps.

Every SWAT team member from LAPD or nearby agencies is there or on the way. I think that LAPD is waiting for the entire contingent to get there before they initiate an action. They are not going to wait him out

Every SWAT team member from LAPD or nearby agencies is there or on the way. I think that LAPD is waiting for the entire contingent to get there before they initiate an action. They are not going to wait him out

With no hostages? They’re gonna level that cabin, there will not be standoff.

Know it’s weird to bring up now, but I do hope all those secessionist nutbars are paying close attention to what’s happening right now. Because this is very likely how their “war” against the federal government is going to end.

They may get the wrong message. “look what one guy can do, tied up hundreds of cops… Just one guy!”

I must put a big disclaimer here. I don’t want to forget for a minute the pain of Dorner’s victims. Chris Dorner is obviously very very mentally-ill, and extremely dangerous.

Anyway, I would like to say that I found Dorner’s manifesto to be very interesting. His accusations against the LAPD ring true to me. I realize I could be wrong; the manifesto may well be filled with half-truths and un-truths. But it’s one of the most interesting, heartrending statements I’ve read in some time.

You’re in the Czech Republic? I’ve been there. One of the few overseas trips I’ve been able to make.

Yep. Been living here since 2001. I got to miss all of Bush’s Presidency, and thus far, all of President Obama’s as well. I get to experience the wingnuttery only second-hand. Thank heavens for small favors that we don’t have Fox News over here.

Well, we do have Nova TV, which is a teeny bit like Fox News. Right-populist, but nowhere near as wacked out. Glenn Beck would be committed to a madhouse over here.

The next day, an anonymous phone call to the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) stated that several heavily armed people were staying at the caller’s daughter’s house. That afternoon, more than 400 LAPD officers, under the command of Captain Mervin King, along with the FBI, California Highway Patrol, and Los Angeles Fire Department surrounded the neighborhood. The leader of a SWAT team used a bullhorn to announce, “Occupants of 1466 East 54th Street, this is the Los Angeles Police Department speaking. Come out with your hands up!” A young child walked out, along with an older man. The man stated that no one else was in the house, but the child intervened stating that several people were in the house with guns and ammo belts. After several more attempts to get anyone else to leave the house, a member of the SWAT team fired tear gas projectiles into the house. This was answered by heavy bursts of automatic gunfire, and a battle began.

Two hours later, the house caught fire. Two women left from the rear of the house and one came out the front (she had come in drunk the previous night, passed out, and woken up in the middle of the siege); all were taken into custody, but were found not to be SLA members. Automatic weapons fire continued from the house. At this point, Nancy Ling Perry and Camilla Hall came out of the house. Investigators working for their parents would claim that they walked out intending to surrender and that they were unarmed but police later stated that Hall was shot in the head by police as she charged towards them and Perry was providing covering fire.[14] After Hall’s body fell to the ground, it was pulled back inside the burning house by Angela Atwood. Perry followed Hall out of the house and was shot twice in the back. Her body remained outside the house.[15]

The rest died inside, from smoke inhalation, burns and gunshot wounds. According to the coroner’s report, it was concluded that Donald DeFreeze committed suicide, although family members inspecting his remains noticed that DeFreeze had been decapitated.[5] After the shooting stopped and the fire was extinguished, 19 firearms—including rifles, pistols, and shotguns—were recovered. Several thousands of rounds had been fired out of the house by the SLA and police in response had fired several thousands of rounds into the house. This remains one of the largest police shootouts in history with a reported total of over 9,000 rounds being fired. Every round fired by SLA members at the police missed the officers.

The SLA dead were: Nancy Ling Perry (“Fahizah”), Angela Atwood (“General Gelina”), Camilla Hall (“Gabi”), Willie Wolfe (“Kahjoh”, misspelled by the media at the time as “Cujo”,[16] who was reported to be Patricia Hearst’s lover), Donald DeFreeze (“Cinque”), and Patricia Soltysik (“Mizmoon,” “Zoya”). Most of the bodies were found huddled in a crawl space under the house, which had burned down around them.

New broadcasting technology (smaller portable cameras and more nimble and versatile mobile units that made it easier to cover unfolding news events) had recently been acquired by area TV stations, so Hearst and the Harrises were able to watch the televised siege live from their hotel room in Anaheim.

All the #TeamDorner shit is a predictable extension of / variation on the Cult of the Rugged Individual that ‘Merica values so highly.

Just imagine Don LaFontaine saying:

IN A WORLD where blah blah blah….

ONE MAN blah blah blah..

Doesn’t make any difference that Dorner is a murderer. That’s beside the point. People see him as ONE MAN with a grievance standing up against THE SYSTEM that wronged him. People project their own sense of identity as defined by their grievances onto him, and project whoever they imagine their own oppressors to be onto THE SYSTEM. So for every wannabe anarchist who sees him as fighting the cops, there’s a delusional Teahadi survivalist type who sees him as fighting “The Government.”

Evening Lizardim. Looks like I missed all the action in California, but have no fear - one of my cow-orkers, in fact one of the ones that sits at my desk group, has a son who went to school with the boy who was killed in the St. Paul shooting earlier. So I haven’t been entirely free from retarded pointless gun violence.

He’s not a hero. He’s not a martyr to The Man. You know, he might have gotten screwed by the LAPD, but as soon as he killed someone over it, he lost whatever moral high ground he might have claimed. Now he’s just a murderer.

You know, you’d be surprised. An awful lot of conservative types I hang out with romanticize the idea of going out in a blaze of glory, “if I’m going down I’m takin’ as many of them with me as I can.” But you’re also right in that most of them do believe they would be victorious.

You know, you’d be surprised. An awful lot of conservative types I hang out with romanticize the idea of going out in a blaze of glory, “if I’m going down I’m takin’ as many of them with me as I can.” But you’re also right in that most of them do believe they would be victorious.

You know, you’d be surprised. An awful lot of conservative types I hang out with romanticize the idea of going out in a blaze of glory, “if I’m going down I’m takin’ as many of them with me as I can.” But you’re also right in that most of them do believe they would be victorious.

Because if there’s anything we’ve learned in the long and depressing history of people killing cops, it’s that if you kill enough of them they’ll give up and stop trying to get you.

He’s not a hero. He’s not a martyr to The Man. You know, he might have gotten screwed by the LAPD, but as soon as he killed someone over it, he lost whatever moral high ground he might have claimed. Now he’s just a murderer.

Heh. I’ve never lived anywhere with enough crazy conservatives. To me, the kind of person doing this would be an anarchist. I’ve met a few of those for whom this’d be considered, y’know, good.

Basically, it’s people who have watched too many gun-porn action movies and want to be the action hero who kills all the corrupt guys and the Big Bad finally gives up and leaves him alone with the smoking hot chick.

Basically, it’s people who have watched too many gun-porn action movies and want to be the action hero who kills all the corrupt guys and the Big Bad finally gives up and leaves him alone with the smoking hot chick.

You just drop your cigar on the gasoline puddle and walk unflinchingly away from the explosion in slow motion. The FBI agent suddenly realizes you were right all along and it’s Miller Time.

LOL!! “Authorities later discovered that they were in a shoot-out with an elderly woman and her daughter who were just delivering papers in the area.” Yeah, sadly, the current track record suggests this could be a possibility.

The “Team Dorner” people are whacked in the head for sure, but I don’t really think the people supporting Dorner have anything to do with “rugged individualism”. The LAPD has been OVER THE TOP with their policing for decades and it has pushed some people into crazy reactionary mode.

The Matrix is pretty fucking ethically lousy, when you think about it. Their excuse for murdering all the cops they do is that they’re so invested in the system they can’t be broken free. What kind of bullshit is that? Why would cops be more invested in the system? It makes no sense.

The Matrix is pretty fucking ethically lousy, when you think about it. Their excuse for murdering all the cops they do is that they’re so invested in the system they can’t be broken free. What kind of bullshit is that? Why would cops be more invested in the system? It makes no sense.

This has bugged me for a long time.

The cops ARE the system, man. Here, just have a puff of this and it’ll all make sense.

The Matrix is pretty fucking ethically lousy, when you think about it. Their excuse for murdering all the cops they do is that they’re so invested in the system they can’t be broken free. What kind of bullshit is that? Why would cops be more invested in the system? It makes no sense.

This has bugged me for a long time.

What bugs you more, the fact that they gloss over the murder of cops, or that no one ever talks about it, or seem bothered by it?

The “Team Dorner” people are whacked in the head for sure, but I don’t really think the people supporting Dorner have anything to do with “rugged individualism”. The LAPD has been OVER THE TOP with their policing for decades and it has pushed some people into crazy reactionary mode.

I’m sure most of these people haven’t been anywhere near LA in their lives, though.

It’s amazing that there are people who are idolizing what Dorner’s doing, or excusing his actions because of whatever “truths” he told in his manifesto (which happens to be all over the political spectrum and is a pu pu platter of psycho, to say nothing of the cavalcade of crazy).

I wonder how much overlap there is between the Dorner supporters and the sovereign citizen movement, to say nothing of the anti-government types out on the fringes. This is the outcome that they are expecting - to go out in a blaze of gunfire that they initiate so as to fulfill their belief that the government is indeed out to get them.

Eh, based upon the snippet I saw, Aqua Budda’s not saying anything the rest of the GOP isn’t saying, namely “We’re all for legal immigration, but we all them illegals run out on a rail.”

“We don’t count undocumented people as people, furthermore we won’t spend one red cent for anything for these people other than deportation or law enforcement purposes. They can be exploited, raped, beaten, worked to death and even murdered, and we won’t life one finger to protect them regardless of age. Praise Jesus” !!!

Zero overlap IMO. I really think most of the Dorner fans are inner city people who probably feel victimized by the police and are taking out their fury on the LAPD. I think most of the sovereign citizens and anti gubmint types think Dorner is a “librul”.

The National Organization for Women lauds today’s Senate vote to pass an inclusive and long-overdue reauthorization of the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA). Despite efforts by a handful of misguided Republicans to undermine the bill’s important provisions, the Senate reauthorized the act with a bipartisan vote of 78-22, sending it to the House for immediate action.

Like the version passed by the Senate in the last Congress, S. 47 extends its protections and improved access to services to students, those in need of housing, immigrant women, LGBT individuals and Native American women living on tribal lands. These underserved victims experience sexual assault, domestic and dating violence and stalking at similar if not higher rates than other survivors, and they often struggle to obtain services, legal protections and basic justice.

VAWA faces tougher opposition in the House, where a radical fringe still controls the Republican leadership. All indications are that majority leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) and others will continue their shameful efforts to delay passage of the bill, or will try to push through a measure that would leave Native American and immigrant women, LGBT victims and others at risk. These lawmakers need to stop ignoring the daily shootings, burnings, druggings, beatings, rapes and assaults, and recognize the need for improving VAWA to help law enforcement, community service providers and public officials do their jobs.

We call on the House to take up and pass Rep. Gwen Moore’s (D-Wis.) bill (H.R. 11), which mirrors the bipartisan Senate bill and already has nearly 200 sponsors.

The time for delay is over. Let’s recognize that all women matter, and pass the inclusive version of VAWA now.

Zero overlap IMO. I really think most of the Dorner fans are inner city people who probably feel victimized by the police and are taking out their fury on the LAPD. I think most of the sovereign citizens and anti gubmint types think Dorner is a “librul”.

I disagree. Some Dorner fans (as seen on Twitter) are anti-government libertarian types. The ‘inner city’ folks are more amused at seeing cops feeling helpless, but are not rooting for Dorner.

The former. The movie is such escapist silliness that I don’t expect people to actually treat it as a narrative with lessons to be learned or anything.

The Matrix = the cinematic version of those late night bull sessions you had in college when you and your friends smoked too much weed and had too much cheap beer and you were trying to sound enlightened.

I disagree. Some Dorner fans (as seen on Twitter) are anti-government libertarian types. The ‘inner city’ folks are more amused at seeing cops feeling helpless, but are not rooting for Dorner.

There are gangsta types and associated idiots who are rooting for Dorner in a fuck the police way. There’s not actually very many tweets under teamdorner, it’s pretty much just the ass-corner of the internet, and doesn’t really deserve this much attention.

Claiming that the reauthorization would expand the definition of domestic violence to include “emotional distress,” Heritage [Action] declared that the “expansive and vague language will increase fraud and false allegations, for which there is no legal recourse.”

“Under VAWA, men effectively lose their constitutional rights to due process, presumption of innocence, equal treatment under the law, the right to a fair trial and to confront one’s accusers, the right to bear arms, and all custody/visitation rights,” the group wrote. “It is unprecedented, unnecessary and dangerous.”

FreedomWorks also worried that the legislation would be unfair to men.

Call your congresscritter’s offices. Both local and the DC offices. Enough pissed off constituents calling and calling will help. At this point every little bit helps. It’s insane we even have to have this be an issue at this point.

And unfair to men? Really,that’s where they’re going with this? Unfair how, that it won’t be QUITE as easy to be an abusive shitheel?

I was invited by a friend when I was about 11 to spend a weekend up there with a couple of other friends. Turned out to be a recruiting thing for her evangelical church. That’s where I found out that Catholics aren’t considered Christians by some other Christians. One of my other friends ended up getting married in that church (many years later), so it wasn’t a complete waste for the recruiters.

I was enchanted by the mountains, forest, snow, etc., and now I live in a town that’s kind of like Big Bear was then (in the 60s) only a lot farther away from LA.

I get very upset that the Wingnut Congress Critters don’t seem concerned about the little boys (well, all children) being raised in abusive situations. They seem to be focused on the male of the species, but only the ones that can vote.

Perhaps they are wise to the fact that the rest of us would like a world in which little boys don’t grow-up to be Assholes like them.

Oh, no. No, no, no. Although that does, at least, guarantee that Dorner will be coming out of this in a body bag.

Probably better that way. If he was to survive and go to prison, he’d end up being viewed as a hero by a bunch of screwed up people who’d be building websites and signing petitions trying to get him freed. There’d probably also be some seriously messed up women wanting to marry him. Ugh.

Probably better that way. If he was to survive and go to prison, he’d end up being viewed as a hero by a bunch of screwed up people who’d be building websites and signing petitions trying to get him freed. There’d probably also be some seriously messed up women wanting to marry him. Ugh.

And the trial? 100X more of a circus than OJ’s.

Look at Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker. Women went cuckoo for him; some women considered him the modern Rudolph Valentino.

Probably better that way. If he was to survive and go to prison, he’d end up being viewed as a hero by a bunch of screwed up people who’d be building websites and signing petitions trying to get him freed. There’d probably also be some seriously messed up women wanting to marry him. Ugh.

There are numerous articles out there on why VAW is so bad for men. None, of whose sites I will link here. The DKos (#225) one above is only one example. Feel free to google yourself “VAWA bad for Men” if you aren’t yet up to the level of frustration I am.

There are numerous articles out there on why VAW is so bad for men. None, of whose sites I will link here. The DKos (#225) one above is only one example. Feel free to google yourself “VAWA bad for Men” if you aren’t yet up to the level of frustration I am.

Why in the HELL would an act discouraging violence against women be BAD for men?!

NO, I don’t agree. It’s not a zero-sum game. We can’t approve legislation that would put either on the side-line. It’s a matter of criminal activity and not gender-issues.

Without engaging in a discussion on what isn’t an important point to me, saying that X legislation would be bad for group A doesn’t mean, in a vacuum, that X cannot be passed. It’s just illogical; the entire point of civilized society is an intelligent balance between limiting the ability of some people to dictate to others.

They seem to be under the impression that rights are a zero sum game. If you give women the right to not be raped and murdered, then you gotta take something away from the menz.

Some would make the argument that a man should be able to defend himself against a woman attacking him - and yes, it does happen. Without having read the text of the bill, I’m guessing that’s probably already been covered, and if not, a jury would probably rule self-defense if it truly was a case of aggression.

KTLA just reported that perhaps Dorner stole a police cruiser and boogied outta there. Just cop rumors they’re hearing right now. But some deputies pulled out of the area where Dorner is thought to be, and blew out of there like a bat out of hell.

Funny how far we’ve come; in my karate classes, I’ve been taught that I have to be extremely cautious when defending myself with my skills, as I could be arrested and convicted for assault even if I am not the aggressor in a conflict, because I am a “large and intimidating man” and I should be able to deter a smaller attacker using other means than violence.

KTLA just reported that perhaps Dorner stole a police cruiser and boogied outta there. Just cop rumors they’re hearing right now. But some deputies pulled out of the area where Dorner is thought to be, and blew out of there like a bat out of hell.

OK, got two medium pizzas and other things so I can settle down now. Haven’t eaten all day until now. As far as this situation is concerned I’m not going to believe anything until the dust settles. 24 hour rule at the very least.

OK, got two medium pizzas and other things so I can settle down now. Haven’t eaten all day until now. As far as this situation is concerned I’m not going to believe anything until the dust settles. 24 hour rule at the very least.

OK, got two medium pizzas and other things so I can settle down now. Haven’t eaten all day until now. As far as this situation is concerned I’m not going to believe anything until the dust settles. 24 hour rule at the very least.

Pizza sounds good. I had a pretty good dinner, though, so I doubt the Mrs. Fish would let me fire one up.

Towards the middle of the 19th century in England, Queen Victoria came into power, and the Brits began enacting many laws protecting women, even allowing them to file for divorce on the grounds of abuse, for perhaps the first time in western history. While Europe was moving forward, however, America was still stuck in the Stone Age. In 1911, a NY court ruled that domestic violence issues were best left to psychiatrists and mediators, who would use only discussion to ‘solve’ the issues at home. Sometimes only one spouse had to be present. This set domestic violence legislation back for many years to come. In fact, the Association for the Protection of Animal Welfare AND the Association for the Protection of Children were both established decades before most domestic violence and spousal rape laws were even regarded as legal issues.

Anti-Violence Policy Comes to Life in the 20th Century (Finally…)

The 1994 Violence Against Women Act was one of the first federal programs which outlined programs to prevent and address violence against women, and even established a domestic violence hotline. Despite the many advancements women made in society, such as obtaining the right to vote, receiving equal pay at work, and having a voice in politics, domestic violence laws were enacted differently from state-to-state. This act, however, not only established federal funding for domestic violence outreach programs, but also extended protection to women who were not permanent legal citizens of the US. VAWA was considered the most comprehensive legislation for victims of domestic violence in US history at the time, and has since been expanded and edited many times, in 1996 and 2002.

Read more at Suite101: A History of Domestic Violence Law and Legislation | Suite101 [Link: suite101.com…]
Follow us: @suite101 on Twitter | Suite101 on Facebook

Two drones walk into a bar… oh wait, there’s black smoke coming out of the area right now…maybe he decided burning some tires will help. The smoke isn’t from the cabin itself, but from a wooded area near by.

Two drones walk into a bar… oh wait, there’s black smoke coming out of the area right now…maybe he decided burning some tires will help. The smoke isn’t from the cabin itself, but from a wooded area near by.

It looked like the building was on fire. It’s more of long shot from the helicopter now.

I hear them on the scanner say they deployed 7 flares, and then were looking for signs of flames.

If they are shooting flares into a wood structure there really isn’t much room for interpretation other than they wanted to burn the building down around him. It also complicates the crime scene by burning away any evidence that may be present.

Just on the surface, it appears that the local authorities had no intention whatsoever of having a resolution that resulted in Dorner’s survival to stand trial.

If they are shooting flares into a wood structure there really isn’t much room for interpretation other than they wanted to burn the building down around him. It also complicates the crime scene by burning away any evidence that may be present.

Just on the surface, it appears that the local authorities had no intention whatsoever of having a resolution that resulted in Dorner’s survival to stand trial.

If they are shooting flares into a wood structure there really isn’t much room for interpretation other than they wanted to burn the building down around him. It also complicates the crime scene by burning away any evidence that may be present.

Just on the surface, it appears that the local authorities had no intention whatsoever of having a resolution that resulted in Dorner’s survival to stand trial.

Its going to be dark in one hour. There is no way the police were going to let this thing go through the night. So it would make great sense to start a fire to force him out. If he chooses not to come out and instead get burned to death, its his choice.

I’m watching the live CNN/KABC video right now. The cabin is very much engulfed in flames.

Okay, maybe they’ve got recycled tape they’re looping in with the live video of the smoke.

Honestly, I don’t need to watch this live. I’m happy talking about the POTUS and what he has to say…it has far more impact on my life. I really hope that 5pm brings us Rachel Maddow and the end of this crisis coverage. We’re gaining nothing from all this crap.

Just speculation on my part, which is why I stated that it was an on-the-surface observation. If someone else can explain a logical reason for firing flares into a building (as documented on #345) other than to set the structure ablaze, I’m willing to entertain those.

Tear gas is all about taking a man alive. Force him out. If he is willing. if he is not, the fire will force his hand one way or another. We can see our police tried every way to take him alive. In the end it may well be suicide by cop. Too bad this bastard had to take so many first.

NBC showing police briefing at the road block at the ranger station right on the corner of Hwy 38 and Bryant street at the edge of Yucaipa. My folks live about 4 miles from there. I used to drive around that corner every day to go to work up at Forest Falls. Freaky shit.

NBC showing police briefing at the road block at the ranger station right on the corner of Hwy 38 and Bryant street at the edge of Yucaipa. My folks live about 4 miles from there. I used to drive around that corner every day to go to work up at Forest Falls. Freaky shit.

The Branch Davidians self-immolated in the Waco standoff. The conspiracy theorists on that are completely off base.

There are a lot of reasons there are conspiracy theories about Waco, but an awful lot of them are because the ATF and FBI couldn’t have fucked it up — every step along the way — any more spectacularly if they had been actively trying.

There are a lot of reasons there are conspiracy theories about Waco, but an awful lot of them are because the ATF and FBI couldn’t have fucked it up — every step along the way — any more spectacularly if they had been actively trying.

When you look in the acronym dictionary for FUBAR, it says: “See: Waco siege.”

Look, if he wanted to set the place aflame, all he had to do was let the propane run via the stove but without flame, so that if they tossed in the tear gas canisters, it could spark the gas into a conflagration that takes out the cabin.

If he went into the basement, he’d probably die of asphyxiation before the flames killed him.

Sorry, I spent all day helping co-workers field calls from people who suddenly conjured up the money to pay their car bills when the repo truck showed up in their yard, or who wanted to “make payment arrangements” after not having paid for three years, or whatever… Got texted by the girlfriend at work re: a fugitive who broke away from his handlers not too far from here today, turns out he stole a truck that apparently had a handgun in it (!), local schools were on lockdown… Then this guy kills again… Also spent too long dicking around with Chase automated customer “service” (term used loosely) this evening trying to close my HSA that I never use…

Stressful day, but I’m not dead, nor am I holed up in a cabin with several murders to my name. But I am a cranky monkey and disappointed in how things are going.

And, you know, my girlfriend (who is in a Ch13 Bankruptcy which she filed to give up her home, and who is a single mom) was laid off two weeks for basically no reason at all, yet she isn’t murdering anybody because her life got fucked up by The Man.

Funny how having a penis seems to correlate with “crazy” these days. Just a thought.

I am honestly aghast that he allowed himself to get stuck in a corner this way. Big Bear has very few roads in and out. You can go down the front to San Bernardino. You can go via Rim of The World hwy to Blue Jay and Fawnskin by Lake Arrowhead and then go down. You can go down 38 to Yucaipa and then Redlands, or you can go down the back to Apple Valley and the high desert via one paved road or a graded dirt road that may not be passable in the winter. That means he had 4 real ways in and out, and 5 at the very best. He was never going to get out of the mountains.

Perhaps he saw he is surrounded and the tear gas was the last straw. If he killed himself the tear gas is very likely to start a fire from carpet, drapes or a wood floor.

This is a good time to remind the critics of the police that officers lost their lives via ambush or an arrest attempt. I’d like the critics to remember who puts their lives at risk and who just drives a keyboard to talk about it.

[Updated at 7:57 p.m. ET] The cabin is indeed on fire, but authorities aren’t sure whether Dorner is inside, a San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department spokeswoman said.

Authorities also aren’t certain that Dorner was the person they chased to the cabin and fatally shot a sheriff’s deputy, but that the suspect has been described as looking like Dorner and “we have reason to believe that it is him,” she said.

I’m surprised they didn’t just machine-gun the whole house, honestly. I figured he wasn’t coming out of there without a lot of .223-sized holes in his important parts. I think he probably figured the same.

this is a good time to remind the critics of the police that officers lost their lives via ambush or an arrest attempt. I’d like the critics to remember who puts their lives at risk and who just drives a keyboard to talk about it.

Also a good time to mention that those two women are real fucking lucky to have survived being shot at by 6 officers who expended 100 plus rounds in a neighborhood without actually bothering to find out who they were shooting at in the first place…in violation of every procedure you can think of. It easily could have been two dead women in the truck and a pile of excuses from officers who somehow thought they would be the heroes who brought down Dorner.

I can’t think of a plausible interpretation other than by a hailstorm of incoming bullets.

I’m going to go with: suspect news stories are getting conflated, as it was earlier reported that he tried to escape out the back and was pushed back well before the fire (when the second deputy was injured) and having watched the live coverage this afternoon… yeah.

Sorry, I spent all day helping co-workers field calls from people who suddenly conjured up the money to pay their car bills when the repo truck showed up in their yard, or who wanted to “make payment arrangements” after not having paid for three years, or whatever… Got texted by the girlfriend at work re: a fugitive who broke away from his handlers not too far from here today, turns out he stole a truck that apparently had a handgun in it (!), local schools were on lockdown… Then this guy kills again… Also spent too long dicking around with Chase automated customer “service” (term used loosely) this evening trying to close my HSA that I never use…

Stressful day, but I’m not dead, nor am I holed up in a cabin with several murders to my name. But I am a cranky monkey and disappointed in how things are going.

And, you know, my girlfriend (who is in a Ch13 Bankruptcy which she filed to give up her home, and who is a single mom) was laid off two weeks for basically no reason at all, yet she isn’t murdering anybody because her life got fucked up by The Man.

Funny how having a penis seems to correlate with “crazy” these days. Just a thought.

So most likely, he was holed up, a fire started in the cabin (from what to be determined), he tried to escape but ran into a wall of bullets, went back into the cabin, said, “Fuck it”, ate a bullet and that’s that.

I’m surprised they didn’t just machine-gun the whole house, honestly. I figured he wasn’t coming out of there without a lot of .223-sized holes in his important parts. I think he probably figured the same.

Any bullet that will reliably penetrate one wall cannot be trusted not to overpenetrate and go somewhere else. Thank goodness, police (even the LAPD) are generally more responsible with their bullets than those they oppose.

So most likely, he was holed up, a fire started in the cabin (from what to be determined), he tried to escape but ran into a wall of bullets, went back into the cabin, said, “Fuck it”, ate a bullet and that’s that.

Also a good time to mention that those two women are real fucking lucky to have survived being shot at by 6 officers who expended 100 plus rounds in a neighborhood without actually bothering to find out who they were shooting at in the first place…in violation of every procedure you can think of. It easily could have been two dead women in the truck and a pile of excuses from officers who somehow thought they would be the heroes who brought down Dorner.

This. I can’t imagine what the LAPD are going through right now, with a highly skilled ex-cop literally gunning for anyone wearing an uniform, as well as their families.

However, nearly killing a middle aged woman and her elderly mother only exacerbates the already shaky rep the LAPD has with the minority community.

There are a lot of reasons there are conspiracy theories about Waco, but an awful lot of them are because the ATF and FBI couldn’t have fucked it up — every step along the way — any more spectacularly if they had been actively trying.

So most likely, he was holed up, a fire started in the cabin (from what to be determined), he tried to escape but ran into a wall of bullets, went back into the cabin, said, “Fuck it”, ate a bullet and that’s that.

That would make sense, but until we know what caused the fire and until the full police reports come out, there’s no way to tell for sure.

Also a good time to mention that those two women are real fucking lucky to have survived being shot at by 6 officers who expended 100 plus rounds in a neighborhood without actually bothering to find out who they were shooting at in the first place…in violation of every procedure you can think of. It easily could have been two dead women in the truck and a pile of excuses from officers who somehow thought they would be the heroes who brought down Dorner.

Yup. The Mother of all Lawsuits is in the wings there. And it’s just proof for me that police and “armed guards” aren’t a magic solution. Even guys who we hypothetically trust to carry serious firepower with their badges, didn’t kill their targets after punching all kinds of holes in that truck (I saw those photos and if I didn’t intellectually know how weird things can get when bullets start flying, I’d have thought for sure that no survival was possible). That particular fuster-cluck would be worth a week of news alone if it wasn’t for the bigger related story.

It easily could have been two dead women in the truck and a pile of excuses from officers who somehow thought they would be the heroes who brought down Dorner.

Why we should assume they were in some hero mode instead of shooting to stop a stone cold killer (if by mistake) completely escapes me. I don’t think they pulled the trigger thinking hero, or reward or promotion or accolades. I think what was in their heads was to stop a killer. Sadly they were wrong. Tragic, wrong, but not craven.

Why the downding, Stanley? I really hope you are not one of the types who blames the women for getting shot at by incompetent officers. I see that bullshit over at Policeone, and some of it has real nasty racial overtones about gold digging bitches from the bario getting lucky.

The details will become clear in time. Light speculation is bound to occur, but let’s not let it get out of hand.

Yep. I listened to the scanner feed until the site went down and have multiple live streams going, but the biggest takeaway has been that the news organizations have kind of lousy filters when it comes to reporting things that haven’t been verified well.

In light of the frequent criticism that science, and especially evolution, are inhumane, materialistic and profane, it is worth noting that the work of Darwin was not simply about finches or apes. He was especially motivated to understand and appreciate the almost incredible diversity in the family of man. Throughout his life he sought to relate this appreciation and understanding of human diversity to God’s plan for the world. Maybe it is not surprising that Darwin would become a central symbol in the human struggle to find religious meaning in life, but there is an irony that his work would become Exhibit A and Darwin himself the bête noir for those people who hope to find meaning by rejecting science and scientific thought.

Yep. I listened to the scanner feed until the site went down and have multiple live streams going, but the biggest takeaway has been that the news organizations have kind of lousy filters when it comes to reporting things that haven’t been verified well.

We here at LGF have more cause than most to know this. We’re the fact-checkers the media wish they had.

I’m pretty sure he’s known all along he wasn’t going to come out of this alive.

There just wasn’t any other realistic option.

What else could he do under the circumstances, given his particular frame of mind? His ‘manifesto’ clearly implied he wasn’t going to be taken alive. So one way or another, either at the hands of the police or by his own, he considered himself a dead man walking.

A better picture of what happened is emerging now - he crashed that truck into a ditch, then attempted to bail out and run into the woods, but was driven back by that hail of bullets I heard the audio recording of, earlier. Fleeing the police, he holed up in the cabin, and may have been wounded.

A better picture of what happened is emerging now - he crashed that truck into a ditch, then attempted to bail out and run into the woods, but was driven back by that hail of bullets I heard the audio recording of, earlier. Fleeing the police, he holed up in the cabin, and may have been wounded.

I didn’t listen to the recording as I doubt the Mrs. Fish would want to hear it, but I can imagine that had to be some firefight. The guy is TRYING to go out in a blaze of glory and he turns tail and runs.

Rep. Steve Pearce, the delegation’s only Republican, will not attend the State of the Union speech because he will be in Roswell for a rally in opposition of the Obama administration’s listing of the lesser prairie chicken under the Endangered Species Act. A public hearing on the issue will follow the rally this afternoon.

“The Obama Administration’s Fish and Wildlife Service scheduled the public hearing on the lesser prairie chicken for the same day as the President’s State of the Union address,” according to a news release from Pearce’s office. “Pearce has chosen to attend the public hearing, in order to stand with his constituents in defense of New Mexico’s jobs, communities, and education fundingoil and gas interests.”

I meant my memories of the area from my childhood. It was nice. Growing up in the 70s in L.A. wasn’t so bad, really.

Southern California in the 70’s was pretty damned awesome. Then, the LAPD and Daryl Gates decided to have Apocalypse Now…but New and Improved Urban Setting! and big chunks of LA became absolute no-go areas if you were black or Latino. (Like the beaches, most of the malls, lots of movie theaters. There are numerous incidents concerning overt racial profiling and ridiculous police abuses around that time. African American church youth groups getting jacked and searched at public venues…even an African American off duty cop and some youths he took with him to an upscale shopping center could not escape being put on the ground and arrested. He was actually charged with some nonsense for having the nerve to go where his kind wasn’t wanted and then not shutting up about it.)

Well, I went to Lincoln Elementary (later Arroyo Seco) in South Pasadena. The parents and I went up to Oregon in 1981.

I still recall the 3rd stage smog alerts. I can still remember the taste of smog in the back of my throat. Disco was king. I remember seeing my first shark off the Santa Monica Pier.

Once a year, in February, my parents and I made the trek to South Central, to see my dad’s accountant to do the taxes. My dad knew the guy from way back when. I used to play with his son while all that jazz was being done.

Southern California in the 70’s was pretty damned awesome. Then, the LAPD and Daryl Gates decided to have Apocalypse Now…but New and Improved Urban Setting! and big chunks of LA became absolute no-go areas if you were black or Latino. (Like the beaches, most of the malls, lots of movie theaters. There are numerous incidents concerning overt racial profiling and ridiculous police abuses around that time. African American church youth groups getting jacked and searched at public venues…even an African American off duty cop and some youths he took with him to an upscale shopping center could not escape being put on the ground and arrested. He was actually charged with some nonsense for having the nerve to go where his kind wasn’t wanted and then not shutting up about it.)

My dad’s opinion of Gates was pretty low. Called him a “thug with a badge”.

I grew up in Alhambra, so not far from you. And probably close to the same age.

I remember going to “The Hat”, one of my dad’s favorite eateries in Alhambra, on Garfield if I remember correctly. He loved the pastrami there. Also, “Phillipe’s”, which I introduced my ex-wife to one time, and of course, “Tommy’s”.

I remember going to “The Hat”, one of my dad’s favorite eateries in Alhambra, on Garfield if I remember correctly. He loved the pastrami there. Also, “Phillipe’s”, which I introduced my ex-wife to one time, and of course, “Tommy’s”.

I love all those places. The Hat has the best pastrami. Philippe’s is nice, I ate there last week when I picked up a family member from the train station.

My dad’s opinion of Gates was pretty low. Called him a “thug with a badge”.

Yep. Read up about the things that happened during Operation Hammer, and you start to understand what actually led to the Rodney King riots. Apartment buildings utterly destroyed by police searches with orders to “rip the carpets up and the wallboard down”, toilets and sinks smashed apart by sledgehammers, clothing piled up and doused with raw bleach, police grafitti left on the remaining walls, doors torn off the hinges and so on. In at least one case, the Red Cross intervened to give emergency shelter to families whose dwellings were literally made uninhabitable by LAPD searches. This is how they got the reputation as a gang with badges at that time, and why they still are hated widely today.There are people in LA actually cheering for a murderous paranoiac, and all because they despise the LAPD as an occupying army. Sad as hell.

I love all those places. The Hat has the best pastrami. Philippe’s is nice, I ate there last week when I picked up a family member from the train station.

Nice. Philippe’s is great. Of course, there’s In-N-Out Burger, and that was my ex-wife’s favorite fast food joint that she tried. She’s Czech; all we have here is McDonald’s, Pizza Hut, and KFC. The occasional Burger King.

I don’t want to violate any rules here, but I might be interested in some Cadian stuff.

I think you’ve got my email. Shoot me a message. I can shoot you a list of what I got. A few command sections, 2 platoons of infantry with weapon teams, a few squads of Storm Troops/Grenadiers, Chimeras, 2 Valkyrie,a few Leman Russ with turret swaps, 9 sentinels, a Baneblade, plus miscellaneous stuff. All painted in Urban camouflage.

Yep. Read up about the things that happened during Operation Hammer, and you start to understand what actually led to the Rodney King riots. Apartment buildings utterly destroyed by police searches with orders to “rip the carpets up and the wallboard down”, toilets and sinks smashed apart by sledgehammers, clothing piled up and doused with raw bleach, police grafitti left on the remaining walls, doors torn off the hinges and so on. In at least one case, the Red Cross intervened to give emergency shelter to families whose dwelling were literally made uninhabitable by LAPD searches. This is how they got the reputation as a gang with badges at that time, and why they still are hated widely today.There are people in LA actually cheering for a murderous paranoiac, and all because they despise the LAPD as an occupying army. Sad as hell.

Done by the C.R.A.S.H. unit, I read.

Wasn’t the TV series “The Shield” based on that and the Rampart Scandal?

Also, I think the movie “Training Day” drew some inspiration from it as well.

I’m a valley guy. Grew up in Woodland Hills, worked downtown all my adult life. I love my hometown. LA is the best.

I love L.A. as well. One of my students had a chance to visit L.A. in 2010. She was simply overwhelmed by it all. There’s more people in the Greater Los Angeles Metropolitan Area than there are in the entire Czech Republic. Even my ex-wife was pretty flabbergasted by it, especially the sheer size of it - that blew her away.