You shouldn't need to punch in your drum takes. you should be able to perform the entire track in one take. I never punch in drums. That's for lazy shits.

I seriously doubt anyone on this board is able to record a drum track with the technical level of Dave Lombardo (for instance) in one single take. Such a technical level requires at least 5 hours practise per day. Who has the means to do so?

Arkhane wrote:

You shouldn't need to, but it sure takes the time out of re-re-re-re-rerecording everything because one crash hit sounds a tiny bit off on take 1, or take 2 was sloppy, or you could do take 3 better.... you know what I'm saying.

Yeah of course. And there's another important factor: stress. I'm a nervous person. When I press the 'record' button and begin to play, I think so hard "don't miss a hit" that I often end up doing a mistake. Thinking about the song's patterns while earing the scratch track and managing to hit every single hit on time requires a lot of concentration. I unwillingly think about other things while playing.

Recording a perfect drum track in one single take without any post-production is frankly rare. I often end up keeping a drum take when the errors are not blatant.It also pisses me off to be forced to get up, put the earplugs off, go to the recording console to press 'stop-rewind-play-record', get back to my seat, readjust the earplugs etc each time. Are there any computers or recording consoles with a remote controller?

KFD Do you not understand what I said? I mean are you that unfamiliar with english? that when I say a single take I'm taking about one solid single take. I'm not saying you don't do 3 or 4 attempts before you get that correct one, but once you have that take that's it. You don't piece together 3 or 4 takes to make you sound like you are a good drummer when you are infact lazy and mediocre. Every single one of my songs and albums... no punch ins. Everything I've ever written is play this all the way through correctly, if you fuck up then you start over. it's that simple.

Oh yea and practice 5 hours a day... I used to do that for 10 years of my life between me and my bands practice. So it's not impossible either.

I perfectly understood what you said, but I maintain that recording a single flawless drum take is really, really hard, even after ten or more takes. I haven't listened to your material in detail, but I guess there are at least a few mistakes in your drum tracks.

So if you'd rather keep single unperfect takes instead of overdubbing or "segmenting" multiple takes, it's your choice. Unfortunately, in my current configuration, I'm forced to record single drum takes, and that pisses me off. When I recorded on my computer, I could punch in.

However it's not a question of choice. You cannot humanly record perfect single takes on a regular basis, unless you're some kind of robot or champion drummer.

It's really really hard for people with no skill. Just admit you don't have that and I'll just move on. And honestly no you have no grounds to assume anything about my playing if you don't listen to anything that I've done. I have listened to what you have done and you really need to practice more.

I don't play drums myself but most of the competent drummers I know or have worked don't have an issue with recording their drum parts in a single take. Those who can't usually aren't very competent in the first place. Those who can ARE competent, not inhumanly skilled monsters. Inhumanly skilled would be Kevin Talley learning the whole Hate Eternal set while on the flight to the show venue and nailing the set without rehearsing, or Jimmy DeGrasso pulling off an entire Megadeth set with no rehearsal or even soundcheck, having learned the songs with a walkman and airdrums the night before.

EDIT: As for nervousness, hell I used to get a little jittery when we were just rehearsing and my solo was coming up. Know how you get over that? Play it 1000 times to a metronome until you can't possibly fuck up even while on bath salts and heroin and Old Grandad combined.

KFD, maybe you could also try recording with a video camera to raise your confidence.

Recording without punch-ins is good practise. I don't punch-in on drums either and mostly don't use them for guitar, but once in a while I'll use one or two for guitar. I blame that on lack of practise, since sometimes I'll write a song on guitar and then learn/practise/record it on drums, then go to record the guitars without much practise. I punch-in a lot for vocals since they hurt my throat and I don't really consider myself a vocalist anyway.

My vocalist is very adept at splicing takes together when he records other bands but for us he's very insistent that we punch-in as little as possible, if at all. It's tiresome and difficult but it's definitely a good discipline. It means you get your shit together before coming to record. If you've practiced it to a click track at home it should be easy enough to just replicate whatever you practiced 100% in the studio. I'm not that great a guitarist at all, to this day I've been playing for about 5 years I reckon so it takes me lots and lots of practice to get there(while some of my friends seem to effortlessly pull it off) but it's not impossible and should be a goal to work towards.

I doubt it's about any raw talent than it is about practice and discipline. Most of the friends I mentioned, like SLK, have been playing day in day out for over a decade. That's how you get good at shit, be it music or projectile vomit contests.

Exactly. And if you give me the excuse you don't have the time to practice.. you also have no time or right to try to pass off your 'music' to anyone aside from on the same basis when a 5 year old draws a picture for their mother.... that's nice and cute to the parent, but don't expect to get paid or praised for it by anyone else.

ShaolinLambKiller has killed lambs within the confounds of a Shaolin monastery in the name of Lucifer, therefore his music is flawless and thus, he is flawless.

Anyway, KFD I'm like you. I sometimes get that little screaming voice chanting "Don't fuck up... don't fuck up.... DON'T FUCK UP!" and it ends up being sloppy or something makes me have to go back and redo it. But I'm using my own equipment on my own time and for my own pleasure, so I say fuck it. During the songwriting stage, if you are alone and have your own studio and your own time to spend, punching in is perfectly legit. However, what I think SLK is trying to say is before you publically release your material, it should be practiced to perfection and re-done in as little takes as humanly possible. If you can't recreate your song in any way without fucking it up, then you need to practice it until you can get it recorded in one take or you have no right to release it at all. Even if you are a solo guy, you need to be able to perform your material on stage, just in case you win the celestial lottery and you are given a chance to perform with a band (or at least session players) while opening up for, say, Slayer, Enslaved, Immortal, Moonsorrow, Deicide, or Weezer.

OH I don't get why everyone just assumes I am saying I am flawless. I'm not and I've stated as such. But I also practice my material enough to get to the point where I'm satisfied with releasing it. And like I'll say over and over again. I do it in a single take, maybe it is just one take maybe I attempted 10 times but it's a single take all the way through. Do that. Everyone who takes that as I'm saying I'm flawless obviously takes that easy lazy bullshit route and can't comprehend putting some REAL work into their recording.

I don't know how that was 'misconstrued' you seem to get that aside from the part where it's made up that I said I was flawless.

It obviously doesn't have to be flawless meaning every single hit is 100% dead centre and the volume and intensity are all equal and uniform. Some variety in that shit is what gives the performance a human element. As long as it's in time and there are no fuckups and most importantly there's some fire and attitude in the playing, you can already keep the take IMO. If it takes you more attempts to play through without a fuck up then do it. I didn't like doing it either when I was being made to, but I now see the long term benefits of having such a practice.

Also later on in mixing if you are doing that yourself... you do yourself a huge favor in making it so much easier just dealing with single tracks for each thing you recorded instead of double or triple that cause you spliced all that shit together.

And like I'll say over and over again. I do it in a single take, maybe it is just one take maybe I attempted 10 times but it's a single take all the way through. Do that. Everyone who takes that as I'm saying I'm flawless obviously takes that easy lazy bullshit route and can't comprehend putting some REAL work into their recording.

I don't know how that was 'misconstrued' you seem to get that aside from the part where it's made up that I said I was flawless.

Did you really think I was being serious when I said that bit about being flawless? I thought the smiley was an obvious 'joke' marker. Was just poking fun at how serious you take your music. No harm intended.

Also, I'm curious... Do you memorize your material before you record? I personally cannot for the life of me remember any good riff I come up with unless I pre-record it with a tape player or even on my laptop. That's the only way I can write a song without forgetting certain parts until the song is deemed instrumentally complete. Then I can playback while playing along on guitar to "proof-read" my music, so to speak. But yea, back to my question: Regarding your songwriting process, how do you just write the whole song without pre-recording it first and without forgetting segments or riffs?

I memorize everything. There is never any pre-recording of my material till I'm laying down scratch tracks to drum to. The entire song at once. When I sit down to write I usually write it all in a session sometimes it takes a couple but even then I don't record it. What I do do is tab out everything. I mean it's very scratch tab as in just the frets occasionally it'll have some added notes incase I'm not directly recording the song after I finish writing it. But there is no recording and checking if I'm happy with it. I have a strong enough idea in my head how everything is going to lay out and only occassionally I rewrite stuff on the fly when recording, like adding 2nd guitar parts, changing my drum pattern instead of what I envisioned in my head, having drop outs of instruments and reintroductions of them for new riffs. Most is planned but sometimes I mess with it as I record. All depends as I work on it, but normally it's all thought out prior to. There are a few bands I don't even tab it out cause the quicker I write it the more energetic it is and I just run with it. I can just happen to remember everything to make it work.

Sorry if I exploded but it seemed to be the going belief and I figured you jumped on that as well... yea I kinda thought you were serious about the previous comment.

I don't record stuff as fast as SLK here so there is a danger of forgetting stuff like you mentioned. Usually helps to just play it again and again when you first write it so it sticks. Sing it into a phone if you have to, I did that when writing basslines for the previous album.

when I'm unable to put riffs to tape I've actually wrote out tabs roughly of what I think the riffs would be while I'm at work and write out the structure with all the thoughts I can about the actual song. That's worked out pretty damn well and I didn't have to change the riffs up too much when I could actually hold a guitar in my hands. lot of times I keep running the riffs or song through my head till I can get off work and go to my shed to record.

I don't record stuff as fast as SLK here so there is a danger of forgetting stuff like you mentioned. Usually helps to just play it again and again when you first write it so it sticks. Sing it into a phone if you have to, I did that when writing basslines for the previous album.

Glad to know I'm not the only person who has done this.

I've only tabbed out one song before writing it, and that was when I was in In-School-Suspension my senior year of high school. The intro and verse were what I tabbed out, and they were the best parts of the song.

That's funny, I started writing a second song for this challenge a couple nights ago, but forgot the exact timing of it the next day... I usually tab out a song while writing it for that very reason, but didn't want to spend the time doing it. Got what I deserved.

I think I finished the instrumental today. Stuck to just two guitar tracks instead of my usual four, it just sounds more vintage. Just need to touch up the drums and (try) to make them sound more realistic. Next up, to settle on a vocal style that doesn't rip off Slayer or Metallicey... Might just growl the majority of it. Nothing says doom like good ole fashion bellows.

Edit: If I finish early I probably won't submit it til close to the end of the challenge. Just to give me a little time to prooflisten and make changes if I have to. Plus my dad just got a bass guitar (Ibanez SR 505, if I'm correct), and I might use it for the bass track.

Yea, he was given a second chance, but he started talking shit about the mods basically. Said something along the lines of "They were ganging up on him" with some added insults. Basically he bit the hand that fed him a second time. Sucks though, he made some good contributions to the forums. Especially the Mixing and Mastering for Noobs thread.

I feel sorry about infinitenexus, because he was a nice, respectful and interesting poster. I don't know about the fuss which got him banned, but I will defend freedom of speech any time I can. I'm quite surprised that such things happen on an American board, because here in France we don't have any freedom of speech anymore (some people get in jail for expressing their ideas, and 99% message boards use heavy censorship). If this situation could be solved, I would be glad.

Since infinitenexus created this challenge, I think he should participate with his own song. Is anyone in contact with him?

I more or less finished the recording of my own song. As in the latest challenge, if anyone wants to help with the mixing, he'll be welcome.

I just know I'm not going to get to it this week. next week I'm going out of town. and my legs have this rash that literally looks like I set them on fire and stomped it out with leprosy. So I really can't do much drumming till that's better. Oh I have that storyline challenge if you want to hear/read that....