Official Group Lotus Thread

Am I the only one who thinks this 'close cooperation' could be the thing that triggered Ferrari's 'doubts' over Lotus/Renault name change? Lotus is a competitor both on track and on the supercars market (is it a serious one is another matter) and Ferrari is not a team/company that would generously make life easier for their rivals.

I don't know about that but HRT, Ferrari, Sauber worked together on an off-throttle blown diffusor ban. HRT "threatened" with lawsuits (who cares about HRT), Sauber protested later and Ferrari was probably main force behind it all.

I don't really understand the real problem with the name changes. Official explanation "image of F1 in danger" is obviously bogus.

I think what's actually happening here, and has been for a long time, is that Genii and GL are keeping their cards very, very close to their chests which has forced journalists (and Saward, who doesn't deserve that title) to infer 'stories' from what little they do know and then imply them to be based on some sort of fact.

There have been so many lies written, and not just on this thread, that the truth is probably a million miles away from most of the content here.

I keep reading how Genii and LRGP are sh*t out of money. There was even a gross mistruth quoted as fact on here that the staff had not been paid for one month. I doubt a company which is well into a multi-million pound simulator development (including new buildings), which includes close collusion with another F1 team, are in any sort of financial desperation, tbh.

There was even a gross mistruth quoted as fact on here that the staff had not been paid for one month.

I don't remember anyone writing that, but I posted after hearing from someone in F1, that last year on at least one occasion they missed payroll.Curious, because looking at your past posts you aren't an Enstone employee, and in fact if anything know less about the situation than most on this thread - that being the case, tell us why above is not true - put up, or shut up.

I doubt a company which is well into a multi-million pound simulator development (including new buildings), which includes close collusion with another F1 team, are in any sort of financial desperation, tbh.

Really? So what about all the rumours earlier in the season that the team hadn't paid for it's engines, which has just been confirmed by the team with a load of fudge about how it was a deliberate ploy to force Renault into selling it's shares...

You don't withhold funds from your engine supplier unless you are nuts or have no money - and that the engines finally being paid for was followed by the sprouting of GL logo's all over the car was pretty transparent

I don't remember anyone writing that, but I posted after hearing from someone in F1, that last year on at least one occasion they missed payroll.Curious, because looking at your past posts you aren't an Enstone employee, and in fact if anything know less about the situation than most on this thread - that being the case, tell us why above is not true - put up, or shut up.

It is a fact that no payroll has been missed, and it was stated and repeated previously on the older GL vs TL thread. If you could (you can't) provide any evidence to the contrary I would state, without any hesitation, that it was utterly fabricated. I would also be prepared to stand up in court and call you (or the supplier of your evidence) a liar with no fear of legal recrimination. I don't offer this as opinion and it's not a debatable fact.

Really? So what about all the rumours earlier in the season that the team hadn't paid for it's engines, which has just been confirmed by the team with a load of fudge about how it was a deliberate ploy to force Renault into selling it's shares...

You don't withhold funds from your engine supplier unless you are nuts or have no money - and that the engines finally being paid for was followed by the sprouting of GL logo's all over the car was pretty transparent

Renaultsport would withhold their engine supply if the units weren't being paid for and they would certainly not include them on their list of customers for future V8s and V6s if they were not happy with the arrangement.

It is a fact that no payroll has been missed, and it was stated and repeated previously on the older GL vs TL thread.

That someone posted that it didn't happen on an internet forum doesn't make it a fact!

Someone I respect in F1 told a group of people including me during the Silverstone weekend that the team missed payroll last year. now if you can tell me that you work for Enstone, or a family member works for Enstone and disputes this then fine, otherwise stop making accusations about people telling lies.

Renaultsport would withhold their engine supply if the units weren't being paid for

For all you they did exactly did that.

they would certainly not include them on their list of customers for future V8s and V6s if they were not happy with the arrangement.

So they would be happy that a customer withheld payment? When was the last time you read anything positive from the manufactures about LRGP?

But do not Group Lotus have the funds and resources needed to run an F1 team. That is why they went with the whole "sponsor a team and claim ownership" thing they are doing with Renault.Not to mention that nearly every other thing that they are supposedly doing keeps getting delayed/

Group Lotus/Proton does not have the money to run an F1 team. For that to happen, they need to team up with Petronas. As it is, Petronas is not remotely interested to join the bandwagon as they are happier to be associated with a marque name like MB Daimler.

BTW, Proton is not even the no.1 national car company in Malaysia - Perodua is.

See that's the magic of internet forums, you can instantly see what someone has posted in the past - not one of your posts on this forum contain anything but opinion - at least in the past you added 'IMO' or 'This is just speculation'...

At least one other person who posted on the now closed Court case thread was present when the comment about missed payroll was made, by someone with a lot of credibility in F1. If you think they are not correct by all means tell us so, but do not accuse people of lying on a public forum.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I don't see what he gains from involvement with Lotus Cars in the future - there is a lot that can be done with the Caterham brand as well as the 7, from bicycles to electric cars - GL comes with a lot of baggage...

In the UK, Lotus sales are struggling, with just 272 cars registered in the first eight months of 2011, compared with 358 in the same period last year. That’s 24 per cent down in an overall market that’s down six per cent.

Perhaps Dany Bahar's strategy of criticising the current cars hasn't worked out so well on the forecourt. And why does Dany Bahar need a mentor?!

With yet another impending Evora refresh nobody would want to buy the current model which can't help - but ignoring the 'fantasy 5', they do have some cracking cars in the pipeline, the V6 2012 Exige should sell a few units.

The article speaks for itself doesnt it?No overseas numbers, so outside the UK they must have been worse. More confirmation that Bahar's master plan is filled with nothing.

Taking the word on that article it means damage control started already and the new refreshed Lotuses are most likely the result of this ex BMW trying to sort out the mess.

And for a change the new guy is talking sense too. Look at his quotes, he is talking about now and the cars of the present and he is talking about something that Mr. Bahar never spoke this far: money, this guy is quite spot on when he says they need to sell now and they need to make the cars atractive. He spoke of work, not of glamour. Actually, he goes as far as to say the name is good but no one buys it.

Same here, I have this feeling that Bahar's position is now transforming into other field by this appointment. Just selling 230 cars in GB,... Quite refreshing tho for Lotus Fans that there are exact numbers being told to us and being shown how things might be turning around.

Also it seems that Tony has decided in anyways not to work on Lotus brand anymore. Good man makes brave decision.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I don't see what he gains from involvement with Lotus Cars in the future - there is a lot that can be done with the Caterham brand as well as the 7, from bicycles to electric cars - GL comes with a lot of baggage...

Lotus brand would've probable been better when it comes to marketing. For me Caterham was quite unknown car brand when Tony bought it whereas Lotus is one of the most iconic car brands. But, Tony didn't manage buy GL, and now he's obviously gonna rebrand TL to Caterham, which I wouldn't suppose him to do if he were trying to buy GL, as Lotus would be the main brand of his car companies in that case. And in Caterham he has a company without debt baggage.

Anyway, I wonder what would those Genii-Lotuses be like. Would they be Bahar-Lotuses, those wanna-be Porsches, or would they be more traditional Lotuses?

Lotus brand would've probable been better when it comes to marketing. For me Caterham was quite unknown car brand when Tony bought it whereas Lotus is one of the most iconic car brands. But, Tony didn't manage buy GL, and now he's obviously gonna rebrand TL to Caterham, which I wouldn't suppose him to do if he were trying to buy GL, as Lotus would be the main brand of his car companies in that case. And in Caterham he has a company without debt baggage.

Anyway, I wonder what would those Genii-Lotuses be like. Would they be Bahar-Lotuses, those wanna-be Porsches, or would they be more traditional Lotuses?

IMHO the current models does have very little to do with ACBC Lotus cars,...

Oh dear indeed. Bahar to remain in its place? I thought Dany was on his way out?

For Genii it is now becoming very strange, as Renault is about to renamed to Lotus that Genii does not own neither have share in the team. All what there is is this Lotus Sponsorship. I rather call it Genii GP at this point. Lotus Genii GP, which should be a subject to be renamed when the out fit is sold to another company.

Initially Lotus was going to buy the Renault team, which kind of made sense, sort of. Then we heard the rumours, and more rumours, and then for good measure some more rumours, culminating in this report from James Allen.

The interesting bit was that Dany Bahar did not seem to be in love with Formula one, and from the article it seems as though he was prepared to wait and see.

This brings us up to the news that has been circulating like a pheasant shot out of the sky for the past month or so. I suppose Genii could facilitate Bahar’s plans, but I don’t see why either Lux or Lopez would want to buy Lotus. The obviously have form with the attempted take over of Saab, but I don’t believe Saab were in debt to the tune that Lotus are.

Joe Saward has obliviously added some ingredients to the pie, but then again he was adamant that when Lotus Racing were formed they would be moving back to Ketteringham Hall.

So we’re left none the wiser. A name change is on the cards and up for discussion, but am I the only one that is doubting whether the Renault/Lotus/Genii combo can actually make it to the grid next year what with the loss in car sales and huge debts?

The other thing was that there was a second round of regional aid up for grabs to which Lotus submitted a proposal. I don’t know whether this has been successful or not. However, if I was dishing out public money for regional development I think I would look very poorly to see it then plastered all over a Formula one racing car, or a Le Mans… oh wait a minute they’ve stopped that one!

It is a due logica course of development, at least to me, that Genii buys into Lotus if it were to name his racing team Lotus. I am assuming that the FOTA and FIA has asked very comforting question to Genii that you would want to name your team to your business profile, otherwise, it does not make sense...
Like I said before. why on earth should you name your racing team under sponsor who may or my not commit to the future as long as you have in your mind. At least that would be the view of other teams. Sponsors comes and goes. In case if Lotus decided to quit sponsoring years of two earlier due to their financial status what should you do to your constructor's name? Genii will exclude bunch of possibility to take a new sponsor at the very moment his team is called Lotus. I assume Lada would not want it, Neither Honda Neither Toyota Neither.... on and on and on...

Mess... Mess... Huge Mess... Now Genii is in trouble, if Behar were to threaten Lopez dat Lotus will pull the plug i case if the team is not changed it's name in to Lotus.

So it was just another rumour invented by journalist with particular sympathies.

BTW I didn't know Group Lotus had so many fans.
Why does this thread even exist in RACING COMMENTS section? It's just another sponsor of one of F1 teams. You might as well start one about Mercedes cars or Air Asia. What does it have to do with F1 or motorsport racing?

Why does this thread even exist in RACING COMMENTS section? It's just another sponsor of one of F1 teams. You might as well start one about Mercedes cars or Air Asia. What does it have to do with F1 or motorsport racing?

Good question, in fact GL has motorsport program, so this is a motorsport related thread.

Good question, in fact GL has motorsport program, so this is a motorsport related thread.

GL recently has been making strange sounds regarding how a racing team operates. In its ownership, in its branding, in its money structure... Renault (of True French car company) has expressed its concern on the war LRGP is operating and so on, pressure in how GL operates in Grand Prix Grid raise high, IMHO in such a height that it can influence future of the The Formula One Racing Team based in Enstone. ( = FORTE) Thus this is a relevant thread to remain on board, .... IMHO...

When asked by Autocar about rumours of a possible takeover of Group Lotus by Genii, Bahar responded: "I can only say this: When we made the announcement about our involvement in Lotus Renault GP we made it clear that this was the start of a close relationship and this journey continues."

Boullier said about the possibility of Genii Capital taking over Group Lotus: "It is another rumour. I like this one."

Autosport took that comment and turned it into an article titled "Renault's Gerard Lopez poised to buy into Group Lotus" which started:

The Renault Formula 1 team is poised to forge much closer ties with Group Lotus, AUTOSPORT has learned, with sources suggesting the outfit's owner Gerard Lopez is to take a financial stake in the sportscar manufacturer.

Dunno, honest mistake, or Boullier/Bahar taking the press for a ride again?

The "with sources suggesting" bit in the Autocar article is interesting

Again another sponsorship/licencing deal from GL. If I understood that correctly, Wildkart manufactures Lotus karts, and obviously GL pays them, and the team is run by Jefra Racing. At least that kart's livery looked more JPS-like than LRGP's livery.

First half is the usual mombo jumbo/we are doing great. Second is much more interesting as it openly tackles the Lotus vs Lotus case.

This is the first time Fernandes openly admits that he is changing the name, but leaves the decision to others.

A few highlights:

The original idea was to do that with Group Lotus, but that obviously went spectacularly wrong, so we found a very elegant solution in Caterham and now we’re sorting out the issues with Group Lotus so we can all move on in a positive way.

I think it's quite clear that Fernandes will put all his energy in Caterham, I dont see him getting GL in the future.

When Karun’s in Moscow people ask him what it’s like driving with Vitaly Petrov, and I get congratulated for a GP2 win that unfortunately was not one of ours.

This is a bit funny the way Fernandes puts it. So the problem is not the name itself, its being confused with the outfit.

I do wonder if this means the end of BRG as well.

This will be decided by the higher authorities, and we put our faith in their decision to do the right thing for Formula One. Now we just want to do the right thing and stop the confusion. I think that’s what everyone wants so let’s see what happens.

Deal is done I guess, nothing much left but to sort paperwork and bribes for other teams that are unhappy.But....

I honestly don’t know what happens from here, but I do know that if somebody else owns the name in the future it will be the right people, using it for the right reasons, and if we have played a part in helping it find its natural home then I am happy.

Kinda cryptic message here, perhaps a hint that Fernandes forced Genii to take up the Lotus chassis name?

And it would make sense, since Classic Team Lotus is suposedly keeping the old records.Fernandes is getting an habbit of «returning things» to Clive.Not that Clive Chapman has been the must upright person in the subject.

It is mind boggling that the sales could be that low with all the money Proton Group puts into advertising of Lotus brand in F1 and elsewhere....

Being in F1 doesn't equate to high car sales, just ask Honda and Toyota. Lotus cars are a niche car, only people that want one buy one, it is not like Ferrari, they are a prestige brand.The car sales aren't being held by the world financial situation either. The number of sales are going to drop even more IF they launch their new line-up of Ferrari/Porsche/Lambo copies, because they will have totally alienated their current buyers!

In theory yes, but reading all the stuff that has come and gone one gets the impression that the «real renault» would like to see it gone.

Tony paid much to Get Team Lotus Name for this, I can't really see how Classic Team lotus would want to get the name. If it were given by Tony to Clive, He will most likely sell it to Bahar for makingn more money, Clive and the family was the very first one to abandon Team Lotus idea, so why should they fight now? As a mater of fact, Chapman Family supported Bahar fpr legal battle.

Being in F1 doesn't equate to high car sales, just ask Honda and Toyota. Lotus cars are a niche car, only people that want one buy one, it is not like Ferrari, they are a prestige brand.The car sales aren't being held by the world financial situation either. The number of sales are going to drop even more IF they launch their new line-up of Ferrari/Porsche/Lambo copies, because they will have totally alienated their current buyers!

Toyota and Honda sells their car very well, well enough to found reestablishment from the shock, I understood? Unfortunately for Lotus Cars at a moment the name value is higher than it's car sells.