Cadian Shock Troops v1.5

Mard

Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:13 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 2:21 amPosts: 581Location: Australia

People have to remeber this is the guard we are talking about.8 is the right size, any less and it breaks just by getting looked at harshly, and larger and it would be ott.8 is a good comfortable number

People have to remeber this is the guard we are talking about.8 is the right size, any less and it breaks just by getting looked at harshly, and larger and it would be ott.8 is a good comfortable number

Huh? Can you expand on this argument please, i'm not really following... Why would more than 8 be OTT? Sorry if i'm thick headed.

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The Commander in the Kasrkin unit have an autocannon. Not much, but at least something to place a BM with (when not surpressed).

Some ideas about Kasrkin. Since AC Rug got steamrolled, we might have to do something...

- Increasing the price, +25 pts. Keep the formation 8 units with the possibility of buying just 1 storm lord for a reasonable price (325-350 pts feels right (-> 3 activations/1000pts)). Makes them kind of basic unit in the list, since the other two are more expensive / less reliable. Using Mards and Uvenlords lists as "templates" this makes for armies with one less activation 12 without titan, 10-11 with). A simple solution.

- Increasing the size and the price. A BSM-inspired Company of 10 at 225 pts or ("standard IG-company") Commander + 12 kasrkin at 250 could be tried. But anless there be more room in the Stormlord (enough for one flat unit) I fear that we won't see many Stormlords, since the formation will be quite expensive. Giving the "Mechanized Kasrkin" the option of changing Chimeras to Stormlord at +50 or +75 could solve this. Or making a Stormlord support formation (2 at 300 pts)?.

Still, I think that perhaps restrictions on the cheapest/"best" units a la Black Legion is needed. Since the problem might not be the price of the Kasrkin. Perhaps increase sentinels to 150 instead? Or reducing the size to 5?

I think a +25 point increase to Kaskrin units (without adding more units) is needed. Preferable even more points, they should atleast cost 225 IMO (but then with more units). That would mitigate some of my pop corn concerns with the list (i.e to many cheap actiavations available).

I wouldn't mind increasing those 25 to the base cost of the formation, but at the same time upgrading the normal Commander stand to a Kasrkin Commander stand (with better armour and stats...).

The SC Retinue was blitzguard. The Bikes, Raptors and one Death Wheel was deployed in the centre of the table, the Nurgle and Khorne retinues and the secon Wheel at my right wing. I deployed "left-centerish" with most of my units except for the Valkyries, Hydras and Infantry Coy, which I placed at my right (the Valkyries as "early deployment bait" since I had other plans for them. The table was mostly buildings and ruins, and one of the wheels and the nurgle retinue hade to pass a bridge to reach the main battle. If I had gone for the blitz the same would I.

My opponent is a very good player but not the best one at strategy rolls... Hence my Deathstrikes killed of the center wheel. Then the battle started. The battle in the center was quite uneven after the demise of the wheel. My two main units (HQ and Stormlords) advanced slowly and in the end shot up most of the khorne retinue (before any bloodthirster showed up). At my right wing I found out that those nurgle boys are almost as hard as TS to kill (more about them later). Much shooting and some assaulting there in the end, not to my favor. Anyway, the time ran out before we could start turn four, but I think it ended 1-0 to me, with either They shall not pass or Take and Hold.Best units were the Stormlords and Hellhounds. I guess some SL players envy Cadians for the Hellhound formation. Or at least they are a fun substitute for single Warhounds, with speed and ability to engage. The Stormlord formation both shot a lot of casualties and proved durable and repelled an assault from the chaos infantry and daemons.

At my right wing I garrisoned the infantry coy on overwatch. Behind them just below and on a hill my mighty griffons and hydras bastioned The big scorcha-unit was to face the wrath of the griffons after wiping out my brave footsloggers. I thought. It just didn't go that way...1st turn.1st ork: Landa 1 air assaulting hydras. Flak! Hit! Critical hit! In the air...2nd ork: Landa 2 air assaulting hydras. Flak! Hit! Great excitement. But no crit. Overwatch from Infantry on orks. Lots of dead boys. Hydras wiped out, but the boys were broken.1st Cadia: shadowsword popped the Landa. (to avoid advancing towards all those odd boys)3rd ork: Without overwatch those infantry won't be any resistance for Big scorchas the Warlord thought. But since just a few scorchas made it into the FF and the rolls were bad, the Cadian infantry won. And the griffons got to fire at broken scorchas instead...

After that it was a slow roll forward for the Cadians, but some super heavies were lost to ood boys. I think it ended 3-0 in turn 3. A big gamble by the Orks that didn't pay off.Best units during the battle was the Griffons(!) and Hellhounds. I moved the griffons around quite much to both prep the target and support when the hellhounds engaged. Two really fun units to have in the army. And an enemy army of infantry and light vehicles made it more fun.

The third game was against Red Corsairs. The list had these units. I don't know how he got it within 3000 pts, but perhaps some points have changed since (or he didn't have a SC or someting..)

Here I lost my head during deployment. Instead of sitting in my super heavies nicely sheltered from the harbringer I tried to spread out the infantry under the AA umbrella. The main battle took place center/right wing with my Infantry Coy, Shadowsword and Valkyries facing of with the Defilers and Chosen at the center/left, with the defilers taking one of my objectives (after some help from the Harbringer).The Harbringer killed about half of the HQ in the first round (but to a hit or two from flak). After that the Hellblades broke them. After that my Stormlords and tanks rolled forward towards his BTS retinue. At turn two the Terminators teleported and destroyed my HQ (BTS) with a critical on the Leviathan, but lost all terminators (in the fight and to some shooting afterwards). My hunt for his BTS was hindered by TS standing in front and making all their saves… :/ But in turn four i managed to kill them off, although the air transported retinue hindered me from taking any objectives. Around my blitz a lone obliterator regrouped at the end of turn three, made some saves, killed the last hydra and took the blitz when the last deathstrike chassis and one of my thunderbolts failed to activate. I think the loss was 1-3 with both BTS gone and I also lost Blitz and Take and hold.Best units were the Stormlords infantry which again proved to be tougher than most IG units. They might have achieved greater success if the TS hadn’t made all their saves. In the end I think they were broken but it took both retinues, silver towers and thunderhawk to do it.

Overall I think the Cadian list is quite stable and fun to play with. I think I played a bit to defensively with the two main units, since I got so surprised of the durability of both Stormlords and the Leviathan. Compared to Stormtroopers I didn’t miss Scout on the Kasrkin, perhaps because I only had them mounted. But they could well cost another 25 points to be in parity with SL stormtroopers. After all, if using them on foot, you have a "autocannon ping at 45 cm" and the possibility of bringing some cheap AA to the army.

I think a +25 point increase to Kaskrin units (without adding more units) is needed. Preferable even more points, they should atleast cost 225 IMO (but then with more units). That would mitigate some of my pop corn concerns with the list (i.e to many cheap actiavations available).

I wouldn't mind increasing those 25 to the base cost of the formation, but at the same time upgrading the normal Commander stand to a Kasrkin Commander stand (with better armour and stats...).

In my initial exchange with E&C I suggested the Kasrkin Company core formation was entirely removed for this very reason. Also suggested removing the Whiteshield formation and adding a free Whiteshield upgrade (+6 stands, 3+ Int).

As it is Kasrkin are either a filler formation or a cheap vehicle for Stormlord upgrades.

It's tough, mobile, bristling with AA, lots of units and formations, and can rush and pull off some spectacular combined engagements against an unwary opponent. 26pts per unit/DC and 22pts per shooting attack represents pretty awesome value!

Yeah, Kasrkin as they are now are just a mean to get more support formations and the most used core formation by a large margin because of that, but they are also part of the theme of the lists so it is hard to get them out of the core formations. I don´t think you should worry about the Stormlord, as they have barely been taken.

I have played against Cadia some times and more than the pop corn nature of it i was concerned more that it always felt that i was playing against the support and not the core which was there just to hold positions and receive fire, where sometimes even the HQ felt like it was a filler. With Cadia it is not felt that the core formations are any useful compared with the support. There is no SH company or other interesting options that are valued more than the support ones, except than for opening the way to take supports.

Not much good of a list and the BTS is quite frail, but it shows my concerns as the weight of it resides on the support. Here the core formations support more the support formations than the other way around.

In this regard with Kasrkin i am more of a fan of:- Just increasing the points in +25 even though they are well priced just now, or use something like Lord-Bruno proposal to justify it.- Give them a mandatory Stormlord but reduce the cost of the formation by 25 points to compensate if necessary (275 points total), with the option to switch with Valkyries or Chimeras. I don´t like to reduce flexibility but this would let see more variety in the core choices, suit the Kasrkin to have the better equipment, the Stormlod being the transport that suits Cadians the most out of those three, would make this list closer to other IG lists, and would make the infantry as the average option, the Kasrkin as more costly but better, and the Whiteshields as the cheap formation for fodder. I would agree with lowering the Whiteshiedls by 25 points, as their strategy rating combined with how badly this SR is seen means that no matter how cheap they are they won´t be taken as much as the current Kasrkin formations.

I don´t think that changing the formation size should be done as it would damage people's collections and would look silly to see such big formations of elite soldiers, but if everything else fails, it is better than the current situation.

I buy both of abetillo’s and rug’s arguments. I’d be ok with dropping both the possibility to field kasrkin without transports and buying other upgrades for them than just transports. This would give kasrkin a feeling of being the elite troopers that rushes forward to make the breakthrough etc. Perhaps the core choices could be something like this:Regimental Hq (leviathan and infantry*, sc)Infantry Company (as standard IG with upgrades**)Kasrkin Company (commander***, 7 kasrkin, chimeras/valkyries/stormlord)

* just wondering: should it be kasrkin or regular infantry as in SL hq?** if you want sabres you have to buy these chaps. Double stormlord transport option? *** kasrkin commander or regular? The come with chimeras and can upgrades to the other two.Outsider the box: If we want them to be more expensive. Have a flat charge at about 325 for either Stormlord, Valkyries or Chimeras with a hellhound or two as support?

Whiteshields... i like rug’s idea, but i don’t think anyone would take it. I hope someone gets a good idea how it could be done.

The trouble we have is that Infantry Companies have always been overpriced to make the core with support list structure work, this makes getting the Kasrkin points right really tough!

Kasrkin are currently a core, support, and upgrade option so there's no doubt they'll feature heavily, but it's at the detriment of actual Cadian Shock troops.

Wherever Kasrkin are in the list I think it would be appropriate that they're mounted. The Mechinized Kasrkin support formation could have a Chimera, Valkyrie, and Stormlord options.

I'd rather see standard Cadian Shock Troops in the HQ.

If the Whiteshield upgrade got you 10 additional stands for free at the cost of -1 int I'd think it would start getting some interest, particularly if 6 extra infantry were priced at 50pts and 4 Kasrkin were priced at 50pts.... 33 stands starting the game in cover garrisoned on OW for 350pts isn't something to be sniffed at, even at Int3+.... but it wouldn't be a cheap filler unit either.

The current Kasrkin commander arrangement does save another new unit, but it is weird! I'd have no objection to doing it properly and making a new unit.

I'll just way in here for a reminder for myself to type something up a bit more thorough later.But I'm highly invested in changes to this list as I have a fully painted army I've taken to tournaments here in Australia the last few years and would hate to see the army change so much all my effort and painting would be ruined and for naught

Well, that is normal in a developmental list. It is something to be prepared if you paint specifically for it. But for now you don´t have much to worry, as only the Whiteshields' proposal change the number of units per formation.

And by the way, what you propose to fix the Kasrkin and the serious problems they bring to the list? I am curious and eager to see more points of view, as so far any i have seen or thought myself don´t solve the problem completely.

It is probably the best option to fix the Kasrkin, but it is still a pity to destroy the possibility of an infantry list with Kasrkin. Adding 25 points won´t solve the problem, just diminish it, increasing the number will remove the single Stormlord, and moving them to support would change the list a lot and almost kill its theme.

RugII wrote:

The trouble we have is that Infantry Companies have always been overpriced to make the core with support list structure work, this makes getting the Kasrkin points right really tough!

Yeah, that's one of the reasons why in my opinion adding 25 points won´t fix it. 250 on a core formation in IG is already low, save some exceptions.

RugII wrote:

Kasrkin are currently a core, support, and upgrade option so there's no doubt they'll feature heavily, but it's at the detriment of actual Cadian Shock troops.

Wherever Kasrkin are in the list I think it would be appropriate that they're mounted. The Mechinized Kasrkin support formation could have a Chimera, Valkyrie, and Stormlord options.

Right before Uvenlord dissapeared he was keen on deleting the support option and merge it with the core, so if he had lasted a bit more it would have been already there. I am not worried of seeing all Kasrkin armies as that could be on the fluff that in a part of the front line the elite units are concentrated, but the fact that they are the only used on almost any list posted in this thread.

RugII wrote:

I'd rather see standard Cadian Shock Troops in the HQ.

I would agree with you if they were Stormtroopers, as those are like special operations units, but Kasrkin are just elite normal soldiers, and it makes sense that the Commander's honor guard has the best soldiers, not average ones. See it in another way, if in the case the Kasrkin were to be moved entirely to support formation, there would still be Kasrkin in core and the army theme would still have Kasrkin, as just as upgrades would be too weak as a theme.

RugII wrote:

If the Whiteshield upgrade got you 10 additional stands for free at the cost of -1 int I'd think it would start getting some interest, particularly if 6 extra infantry were priced at 50pts and 4 Kasrkin were priced at 50pts.... 33 stands starting the game in cover garrisoned on OW for 350pts isn't something to be sniffed at, even at Int3+.... but it wouldn't be a cheap filler unit either.

Now i understand it, what i don´t see is how that makes the formation be taken more, as in my opinion the current option is cleaner and we can end with the same formation numbers and points tweaking the numbers of the current one. Also 33 units sounds terrifying to face, as with so many save if facing a very barrage focused army (which will probably be lessened by Cadian's own artillery) they will be very close to each other as the casualties won´t mean much for them even less as they aren't going to move from there with that SR, and that combined with their FF5+ and +2 for size even if they are shoot before, means that even a clipping won´t work save if its with Inspiring and will need lots of support just to break a 350 points formation. Even a 16-20 units IG infantry formation takes time to break in most situations, a 33 would need to much prep and resources.And lastly and more importantly, i think that after changes are made to the Kasrkin core formation, the White Shields' use will change too for sure. I prefer to issue first the Kasrkin and act after seeing the new situation..

I'll just way in here for a reminder for myself to type something up a bit more thorough later.But I'm highly invested in changes to this list as I have a fully painted army I've taken to tournaments here in Australia the last few years and would hate to see the army change so much all my effort and painting would be ruined and for naught

Same here!!!

I have been playing for years with my painted Cadians, featuring lots and lots of core Kasrkin Cos.

But since I have plenty of Chimeras+Valkiries, I don't mind if they become mechanised (as long as they still are 8 strong fms).

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