Post by XombieMike on Jul 28, 2015 17:11:03 GMT -6

Edit: Design review suggestions will be requested here and reviewed in a staff only area.

Please use this thread to petition the staff to add certain threads and certain conversations within them to the Design Review board.

Posting your request in a well organized format will help out a lot. In the example below I have given it in three parts; Thread, Summary and Highlights. For the thread it was important to link to the original thread. You can learn to do that in this link. In the conversation highlights I opened the topic in another browser tab, then quoted multiple people at once. You can learn to do that in this link. It will require starting the quote in the other tab, but then copying the quotes and pasting them in your reply here. One of the great bits about making your post look good is that moderators can "edit" your post, copy all the BBCode and easily paste it into the Design Review area. (They don't actually need to edit your post, but just do so to grab the code and cancel.) If you see "..." in a post that sounds out of context, that will indicate that there was more to that quote, but it was omitted for clarity.

In the latest Ask Iga, he wanted our feedback for how we would prefer to see the story told through anime or CGI. The focus was on the end game story, but could apply at the beginning of the games or at special parts throughout the plot.

Prerendered is like the castle shot at the beginning of SotN.

Game engine animation is like when Alucard ran into Maria and the game simply stays in it's current mode of animation to tell the story. Of course with Bloodstained we have 3D capabilities that could be more robust with camera work.

I voted Other.I personally would like both Game Engine Real Time Animation AND Anime style cut scenes.I mean in SotN like when Alucard runs into Death, Maria, and Richter for the first time Anime scenes would have been nice, but for subsequent encounters in game animations would be just fine and more fitting.

Kind of like for (relatively) quick interactions (meeting a boss, quick exchange with a character) in game animations is great because it helps to not break up the gameplay and imagery.

But for MAJOR exchanges (fight with Gebel, First ariving at the castle, first time meeting other characters, the endings!) having anime scenes would be awesome!!!On the subject of anime style cut scenes, it would HAVE to be done in a style like that of Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust! And you'd have to be careful to make sure the anime cut scene matches the in game environment. Otherwise you'll end up with a game that looks like it was made from an anime move (dis-jointed).

Considering the kind of graphic style they're going for already, I would actually love for them to try out faux 2D cut scenes.If you watch any of the cut scenes in some of the newer 3D anime games, for example, they look phenomenal.

I pretty much have to defer to the Naruto games at this point. Whether you're a fan or not, their games are visually stunning, and virtually surpass the actual show's animation.

...No matter how good and close to in-game looks anime could possibly be it could create too big of a gap between gameplay and storytelling. It would snatch you from one world (you spent hours exploring) and put you into completely different one. It would kill the atmosphere. Anime worked good with older games that had dated graphics, but we’re talking about Unreal Engine 4 here. Engine is already has everything you possibly need to create awesome cutscenes without damaging the atmosphere. My vote is for in-game engine cutscenes.

I think the in game graphics better keeps the pace and all around submersion in game... but I am not adverse to having an anime intro or ending. but to tell the story I believe the in game graphics are needed to keep us from braking the pacing of the story....

Most of the "cutscenes" in the game I imagine would take the style of most of the events in many Castlevania games were you get alternating portraits of the characters in question talking. Similar to:

...As for the actual cut-scenes, I think either work as long as they fit the aesthetic of the world and look good. The cutscnces in say Dracula X Chronicles didn't really fit in with the aesthetic of Kojima's art so they looked weird and the anime cut scenes in say Portrait of Ruin were only a problem because the aesthetic of that game itself wasn't partially attractive (which isn't an issue for this game). If its "anime styled" (as in drawn), its not an issue as long as they get a competent studio and make good use of color. If they go for CGI, its going to have to be strongly stylized. I know alot of people bring up Guilty Gear Xrd (to be honest I'm not as big a fan of the aesthetic in that game as many seem to be) but some of the best stylized CGI I've seen recently have been the openings to the recent Jojo's Bizarre Adventure anime adaption done by Studio SANZIGEN (there are some minor spoilers in the openings and one major spoiler in the second opening):

Now obviously Bloodstained should not look like this (Jojo has a very unique artsyle amongst Japanese media), I'm only saying that if they go with CGI, it has to be stylized CGI, not the stuff we saw in say, the Lords of Shadow games or Dracula X Chronicles.

Post by crocodile on Jul 28, 2015 18:17:59 GMT -6

So just to be clear: We post in this thread quoting posts and threads we think are high priority suggestions the dev team should hear and then you (and maybe the mods too) look over them, summarize them and post the summations in the Design Review Sub-Board where the dev team (or Fangamer or Playism or whoever) actually reads? Do I have that right? We can quote and link our own posts & threads right?

Post by H on Jul 28, 2015 19:20:41 GMT -6

Dungeon Mode Ideas:Lore items as extras, friendly access to Dungeon Mode, priority on gameplay. It'd be nice to see some items and loot that we can't normally get from the main castle, but also make them to have unique descriptions that helps us learn more from this universe. These descriptions could possibly hint at future time settings or explain why Demon Castles are possible in the first place. I believe it'll be best to hold off the dungeons up until a certain point in the main game where we gain an item to access it, and then it can be accessed from the menu to have easier saving/loading (Instead of having to load up your save file, going to an area, and then loading again to access the castles).

Igarashi has mentioned how he liked games that motivates people to try playing the game during different time periods. I think the dungeons can best be used to this purpose. For example, near the Halloween season there can be dungeons and enemies with "pumpkin heads" or classic monster costumes with cheesy horror castle themes and limited-time Halloween themed loot (like a Pumpkin sword). For Xmas they can have an "Ice Castle" with snow/ice demons wearing Santa hats. Maybe the boss of that castle can be a demon wanting to overthrow Santa Claus, so it dresses like him..?

Anyway I think it would be better if it was a seperate mode, not part of the main castle... why? Because if you play this game a bunch and are done with the main game and want to start a new roguelike mode dungeon, you shouldn't have to explore the first 10% of the castle, hit level 6 etc, whatever just to start your roguelike mode game.

Also, I just noticed that it mentioned being able to share random seeds with other people after you beat it. I hope that you don't have to beat it first. I frankly think it would be cool to be able to share the seeds of a dungeon that someone CANT beat, and challenge other players 'I can't beat it, can you'? and hopefully eventually find a seed that many people on the internet can't beat, but want the glory of being the first to do so.

Something that should for sure be in there is Cale's weapons suggestion in the Weapons Thread:

For me it is all about legendary items. Weapons and armor with long histories. I'm not entirely sure what will and will not make it into the final cut, but here are some weapons I would love to see included. I know a lot of them have been in previous games (but what weapon hasn't?), and I am sorry if I don't know the history behind them all.

Axe:Axe of Perun: The axe wielded by the Slavic god of thunder and lightning, Perun.Hammer of Hephaestus: The hammer of the Greek smith-god Hephaestus which was used to make the Greek gods weapons.

Daggers:Carnwennan: The dagger of King Arthur in the Welsh Arthurian legends. It is sometimes attributed with the magical power to shroud its user in shadow.Setan Kober: "Devil of the grave". Near its completion when the empu tried to infuse the kris with spiritual power, he was disturbed by a crying demon from the graveyard. As a result, although powerful, the kris had a temperamental evil nature that caused the wielder to be overly ambitious and impatient.Taming Sari: Translated as “flower shield,” Taming Sari was the fabled weapon of the legendary Melakan warrior Hang Tuah. Taming Sari was unique in that it did not have a sheath, as Hang Tuah considered his enemy’s body to be the only appropriate sheath.

Hammers/Maces/Flails:Club of Dagda: This magic club was supposed to be able to kill nine men with one blow; but with the handle he could return the slain to life.Mjölnir: Self explanatory.Sharur: "Smasher of thousands". An enchanted talking mace. Not only could Sharur talk, it was also sentient, offering the god advice on powerful enemies, gathering information wherever it could.

Polearms/Spears:Amenonuhoko: Shinto's genesis gods Izanagi and Izanami were responsible for creating the first land. To help them do this, they were given a spear decorated with jewels, named Ame-no (heavenly) nu-hoko (jewelled spear).Cronus' Scythe: Cronus castrated his father Uranus using an Adamant sickle given to him by his mother Gaea.Death's Scythe: A large scythe appearing in the hands of the Grim Reaper. This stems mainly from the Christian Biblical belief of death as a "harvester of souls".Gáe Bulg: Fashioned from the bone of a sea monster. When Gae Bulg pierced a man’s body, these barbs would open up, making the spear nearly impossible to remove without killing the victim.Green Dragon Crescent Blade: A giant of a man, Guan Yu asked his blacksmiths to make a polearm that combined the chopping power of a saber with the length of a spear. Believed to weigh as much as 45 kilograms (100 lb), no normal human would have been able to use it effectively.Gungnir: The spear of the god Odin. Made from the wood of the world tree Yggdrasil.Kongō: A trident-shaped staff which emits a bright light in the darkness, and grants wisdom and insight.Lance of Longinus: The lance that pierced the side of Jesus as he hung on the cross.

Ranged:Gandiva: The divine bow was said to be able to defeat 10,000 warriors at once and was only held in the hands of heroes.Ichaival: A bow possessed by Odin. Another source said it was came from Ydalir, the home of the god Ullr. It possessed the power of each pull of just one arrow, it will release ten arrows.

Shields:Aegis: Perseus used this shield to look at Medusa's reflection so he wouldn't be turned to stone. After killing Medusa, Perseus returned the shield and Medusa's head to Athena, who fastened it to the shield so that any of her enemies would be turned to stone.Priwen: The shield of King Arthur.

Staves:Caduceus: The staff carried by Hermes or Mercury.Rod of Asclepius: A serpent-entwined rod wielded by the Greek god Asclepius, a deity associated with healing and medicine. (Could be used to heal)Ruyi Jingu Bang: Magical staff wielded by the immortal monkey Sun Wukong.

Swords:Claidheamh Soluis: "Sword of Light".Durendal: The sword is said to contain within its golden hilt one tooth of Saint Peter, blood of Saint Basil, hair of Saint Denis, and a piece of the raiment of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to be the sharpest sword in all existence.Dyrnwyn: "When drawn by a worthy or well-born man, the entire blade would blaze with fire."Excalibur: Everyone knows this sword.Fragarach: Known as 'The Answerer' or 'The Retaliator', was the sword of Manannan mac Lir and later, Lugh Lamfada. It was said to place the wind at the user's command and could cut through any shield or wall, and had a piercing wound from which no man could recover.Gan Jiang and Mo Ye: A pair of swords forged with human qi.Gram: The sword that Sigurd used to kill the dragon Fafnir.Harpe: The sword used by Perseus to decapitate Medusa.Hrunting: Beowulf’s sword.Joyeuse: Some legends claim Joyeuse was forged to contain the Lance of Longinus within its pommel. "by his side hung Joyeuse, and never was there a sword to match it; its colour changed thirty times a day."Kladenets: Russian - "self-swinging sword". A magic sword in numerous Russian fairytalesKusanagi-no-Tsurugi: Found in the body of an eight-headed serpent killed by the god of storms and seas. It’s part of the Imperial Regalia of Japan, icons of the ancient imperial family’s descent from the sun goddess––the symbols of their divine right to rule.Masamune: In contrast to Muramasa’s cursed swords are the blades of legendary priest and swordsmith Masamune. Legend has it that Masamune and Muramasa held a competition to decide the superior smith by placing their blades in a stream. While Muramasa’s cut everything it touched, Masamune’s refused to cut anything undeserving, even the air.Muramasa: Imbued with a bloodthirsty spirit that—if not sated with battle—would drive the wielder to murder or suicide.Shamshir-e Zomorrodnegār: "The witch mother of a hideous horned demon called Fulad-zereh used a charm to make his body invulnerable to all weapons except this specific sword. Shamshir-e Zomorrodnegār originally belonged to King Solomon, and was carefully guarded by Fulad-zereh, not only because it was a valuable weapon, and indeed the only weapon that could harm the demon, but also because wearing it was a charm against magic. A wound inflicted by this sword could only be treated by a special potion made from a number of ingredients, including Fulad-zereh's brains." (I think it fits with the game's theme)Skofnung: Renowned for supernatural sharpness and hardness, as well as for being imbued with the spirits of the king's 12 faithful berserker bodyguards.Tyrfing: "The dwarves made the sword, and it shone and gleamed like fire. However, in revenge they cursed it so that it would kill a man every time it was drawn and that it would be the cause of three great evils."

Regarding bosses. Please don't place every boss at the very end of every new area. Part of what made SOTN great was it didn't feel so gamey in that sense. It didn't feel Stagey, sometimes a boss was placed somewhere near the end of a new area but a lot of times it was somewhere near by, it makes it feel more believable. It's a castle not a staged based game

So many other great suggestions out there. It'll take quite the while to put it all together haha. I hope we can get most of the community's core ideas out there, and that it'll be of use to the developers/designers.

Edit: I'll put some more out here tomorrow of other ideas from other threads (and hopefully minimize being biased) if others haven't done so already by then.

Edit2: Maybe it would be better to make a sub-board that requires higher quality replies before posting?Some extra requirements could be:

It would require more watch from Administrators/mods, but it would be easier than going through all the old topics maybe?I have nothing against debates, but if it is to make it easier on developers to pick up ideas from the community, I feel debates would be better off in the General Discussion section (just my thoughts on it). Also if someone has a new solid idea, they could just post on those higher moderated threads instead of putting quotes here. Just a quick idea to put out there to make it easier a bit.

Post by crocodile on Jul 29, 2015 0:48:29 GMT -6

Summary: Movement options are an important element of any action oriented game regardless if you are a casual player or a more hardcore/speed-runner type of player. The breadth of movement options available can also open up interesting avenues for level design. General consensus is in favor of a variety of options that promote high mobility and high speed. Within the linked thread frequent references are made to previous Castlevania games as well as Mega Man games (X, Zero and ZX series specifically), Mario games, fighting games, etc. Common techniques discussed and requested are:

Back Dash/Back Flip - A way to quickly traverse short distances backwards. Ideal for combat or moving through the castleForward Dash/Short Teleport/Slide - A way to quickly traverse short distances forwards. Ideal for combat or moving through the castle. Dash and Slide can double as attack options if given appropriate attack/invulnerability frames.

Spot Dodge - A combat mechanic more than anything else to liven up combat. Take inspiration from Smash Brothers games?Dive Kick/"Shoryuken" - Techniques oft employed by the Belmonts of yore. Excellent ways to cover weird attack angles & improve diagonal movementDash Run - A simple way to maintain high speed on the ground with minimal button inputs. See the Black Panther Soul of the Sorrow games.Dash Jump - A jump where dash momentum is conserved. See any X, Zero and ZX game.Air Dash/Air Jump - The ability to change trajectory in mid air in anywhere from two to eight directions. A wide range of examples include the air dashs in X, Zero and ZX games and tri-jumps in Marvel-type fighting games. Air Dash can also serve as an attack option as well (see Richter SotN dash, Charged Flame Stag weapon in Mega Man X2, etc.)Wall Jump - The ability to jump from wall to wall. Employed in such games as Super Metroid or even Circle of the MoonFast Flight - Many games, such as SOTN, have flight modes. They are just often very slow sans special inputs (see SOTN). If there is one, just make it fast by default.High/Super Jump - Techniques often employed by the Belmonts of yore or via an item (Gravity Boots in SOTN). Great for covering large vertical distances quickly.

Briefly touched upon was also:Platform Creation - The ability to temporarily create platforms to manipulate space between you and enemies or traverse especially tricky terrain.

"Spatial Manipulation" - The ability to manipulate where you are in space relative to a point (see the Magnes glyh - Magnetism power - in Order of Eccelsia or one of the abilities of the whip in Super Castlevania IV).

Both aforementioned abilities could have interesting applications for level design.

Considering that the game has 3 playable characters planned, not every technique needs to be evenly distributed amongst all characters of course. Considering how movement options have to be constructed with the level and enemy design (and vice versa) in mind I'm sure some of the above sound more or less appealing/plausible than others from your perspective. The overall takeway should be that we are in favor of high mobility and high speed. Consideration to making moves cancellable (dash, jump, crouch, etc.) to further increase movement and combat options are appreciated. Some noteworthy excerpts from the thread can be seen below:

An 8 way air dash is useful in the context of a fighting game but without the type of combat or platforming that would require movement like that, its seems hard to imagine something like that in Bloodstained. I do hope we do get a good forward dash (both ground and air) in this game though. Perhaps something like Richter's dash but easier to execute. Or maybe akin to the Black Panther Soul in the Sorrow games. It's always so weird that in multiple Castlevanias that the fastest way to move is to baskdash & weapon/shield cancel and other awkward stuff.

I mean that's cute but not ideal for what fast movement should look like in a game. Granted Inticreates has lots of experience making good feeling movement with the Zero and ZX series games so I'm not too concerned for this game unless weird decisions get made.

Backdash and dive kick are must-have. As for dashes, I wonder, would it be better to have short-distance dashes (with optional damage or passing through enemies) or constant dashes, which I'm guessing would be obtained later during the game? I'm good with either or both.

what about sticking to the wall a'la megamanX the item could be called gecko foot (or feet)

this could be the move you get before flight or a rising jump (like alucard's Gravity Boots)

Actually, speaking of Alucard and his high jump, the way he basically lands on the ceiling, feet first, instead of hitting his head like a dumbass (like Soma does ) makes me think that a character with a high jump like that could have a sort of ceiling cling move that makes them... cling to the ceiling, with the ability to move around, if they super-jump and hit a flat surface. THAT would be cool.

As a big fan of the X and Zero series of games I'm a-ok with dash jumps and wall jumps <3. A dedicated dash button (like there is a dedicated backdash button) would be great too. I dunno if dash jumps would feel at all out of place in this sort of game (as fun as they are) but I guess its no more weird than lots of the maneuvers you could do in Castlevania-type games (super jumps, air dash, etc.)

If there is a flight mode in Bloodstained (spell, item, transformation, whatever) I do hope its fast and/or you can dash in it. I'm not always a fan of how flight modes in games (SOTN included) tend to be kind of slow and you have to spend a lot of down time flying around to those previously unreachable areas. I feel it can slow the pace of the game down more than I'd like.

Also, what do you think about a move to create a temporary platform underfoot during a jump?The character can stand on the platform, attack and/or jump off of it in any direction. The platform created by this move lasts a short duration and there is a limit on how many can be created per ground touch.The player may be able to upgrade the move to make the platform last longer or increase the platform limit per ground touch.

The con to having an option/upgrade like this in the game is it might make some rooms more empty, vertically, then it should. Wasting potential more rooms from existing.

Unless there is no late game ability like the bat/owl transformation or super jump. In this way the castle would still have vertical freedom but not feel empty like the side tower area in dawn of sorrow or the waterfall areas in SotN and aria.

I still prefer the magnes and redire combo for the sake of having an early platforming ability that gets upgraded into a full blown traversal option horizontally and vertically end game. The extra platforms may feel useful in the beginning but it will not make you feel as empowered by end game like the combo, super jump, transformation, or speed up abilities.

Going past this quote/point It would pretty much be mandatory to have a speed up option in this game for the sheer amount of rooms it will contain. 1600 is nothing to laugh about and having these fast options in portrait of ruin and order of ecclesia where they carried over into NG+ was a god send.

Definitely love the enemy avoiding idea. So atleast we can keep the super jump/transformations for traversal and still have a use for this ability.

Going as my understanding of the plaform ability though is that you are able to make one at any time after a jump correct with a limit of one or two? I am imagining the cloud power up in Mario Galaxy 2 that allowed you to make 3 platforms in succession. Now with that understanding with just one platform alone and the double jump ability you can effectively quadruple jump. Leaving some rooms to be just a long vertical stretch of nothing, no platforms, and such in your way. This is what I mean by empty vertical space.

There will be less platforming challenges because of this added safety feature and when challenges do present it self platforms will be spaced a great distance.

Watch some gameplay of alice madness returns and this shows how giving a player too much vertical freedom early on can adversely affect the level design of a video game. That game has a ton of empty space to make room for the ability to jump 3 times in the air after the initial jump.

This platform making ability seems like an early game upgrade and in doing so the level design should reflect on that, otherwise it would give the player too much freedom in the exploration of the castle. Metroidvania types gradually give the player upgrades that allow further exploration of the world in this case the castle. This ability early on coupled with the double jump may destroy that sense of progression. Possible remedy to this would just place the double jump ability later in the game.

TL;DR I like the idea but the abilities should be spaced out in a way that the metroidvania style isn't destroyed. So if you gain this ability early on then the double jump ability should be a late game upgrade so the platforming doesn't consist of a bunch of empty space in between.

Post by crocodile on Aug 2, 2015 8:21:55 GMT -6

Summary: The castle has always been a staple of Igavania games – the strength of its design will have a significant impact on the fun of the first experience as well as the replayability of the game. General consensus is for a castle with a wide range of represented archetypes, backgrounds and locales. Fond memories were expressed for pretty much every locale type already represented in an Igavania game (gardens, catacombs, dungeons, clock/bell towers, libraries, laboratories, dance/dining halls, chapels, caverns/mines, waterways, demon realms, etc.). Even though the game is to take place entirely in the castle, the representation of some outdoor areas is something some are keen to see as well (though there are fans of the walled in feeling SOTN was able to provide). You can’t really go wrong with any of them – just a wide range represented in desired. Mixing it up with entirely new locale types would also be very much appreciated – as a new IP with a whole new sort of castle, putting entirely new terrain and level types would be awesome. Even though we are in a castle, don’t be afraid to try for fantastical terrain within.

Overall, a combination of tight spaces and more open spaces is something we look forward to with a preference for the later. We all understand and appreciate that some of the constricted, repetitive layouts found in some of the DS games (as awesome as they still are) were clearly the result of strict budget and time constraints – hopefully that can be avoided or minimized in Bloodstained’s main castle. Though I think most Igavania fans strongly agree with Iga’s strong stance against bottom –less pits and the such, some strong platforming elements would be nice for at least some portions of the castle (see the Training Area of Order of Eccelsia).

It is important to backers that the castle not merely be a locale to hold the opposing forces but also be a place that feels “lived in”. This will require the little touches your team, be they programmers, artists, etc. will likely already feel compelled to add sans any prompting from us. They are inclusive of little secrets and Easter eggs (though not outrageously obscure), background elements, enemy patterns and activities separate from direct interaction with the protagonist, etc. Un-intrusive random or cyclic elements, things that can vary about the castle from time to time but won’t impact casual or speedrun game play, like weather or day/night is something many are keen on as well.

Discussion specifically about the “Retro Area” of the castle (2.25M stretch goal) has also occurred. There was no overwhelming consensus for how backers are interested in seeing this section done but interesting ideas were bandied about (classic monsters and black & white color scheme to reinforce the retro feel, etc.). Some choice excerpts about this subtopic and all the other castle design subtopics are included below. Whatever direction you take it though I’m sure you’ll knock it out of the park.

Something I absolutely loved about SOTN was the design and layout of the castle. It's one of the most important aspects because it makes the experience more believable if the location itself feels lived in.

Use this thread to discuss aspects of IGAVANIA castle design that you liked and maybe things you found were missteps.

My personally, I loved how many unique rooms there were in SOTN. Every location had a lot of unique areas in it. Outer wall with it's elevator, with the telescope at the bottom, chapel with the bells, hugeeeeee staircase that keeps going up to the right and the confession room.

There's a lot of unique areas.. On top of all that they had inhabitants that brought the reality. Like the guy that took you across the water in the ferry...

As far as missteps it seemed like after SOTN ( and I assume this was because of time limitation and budget) but it seems like the later castles relied more on copy and pasting rooms. There were tons of repeat designs in each location and far less unique rooms.

Any other details? Ideas? Pros cons....

Might be helpful to jot it down here in case developers take a gander.

Actually, I really wish for an epic castle, where the outside would be far more used than in SotN

(I'll edit later all the ideas I've had that I lost trying to send a previous post)

An entrance, a throne room, living quarters, halls, ballroom, balustrade, fourneaux, a treasury, caves, swamp, an overgrown tower where a gigantic alora une reside 9gif a cemetery of ideas, a graveyard, a manufactory, torture rooms, sacred grounds (many), unholy grounds, a gate to elsewhere (not to teleport inside the castle), summoning grounds, horlogerie, a zoo, an tower lodging flying type of enemies, alchemy labs of curse, submerged grounds, an observatory, receptacle of the ether, an attic with a giant spider, a coliseum, an iceberg (Lol), a waterfall that's really just a huge fountain, the wine cellar, of course

I humbly disagree. Not in the sense that things being outdoors some wouldn't be a welcome change in some ways, but more because one of the things I loved most about SOTN (which is probably my favorite game ever of all time in any genre) was the feeling of being enveloped and surrounded by the castle. It wasn't that the castle itself was restricting, but more that the game did a fantastic job of making you feel surrounded by a living, breathing castle, and you had to fight your way out.

I'm sure whatever comes out will be AMAZING especially since it's IGA's biggest castle ever, just my two cents. Maybe it's just me!

i hope we see a lot of the outdoors on the outside of the castle walls. Like the outer wall in SOTN where you'd see rain outside, or at other points in time there was fog in that area. I also loved the chapel with the clouds flying by....stuff like that needs to come back.

Really, the potential to do so many great things with this game is there. They just need the creative forced to really push out the best product that realizes it's full potential. They should really study SOTN as a base just to see how much detail was crammed into such an older product.

I'd love to see more things in the background through castle windows, balconies, etc that can be accessed/discovered via a certain spell, some kind of supernatural means or puzzle element. The Flying Humanoid in Dawn of Sorrow being a sparkling example. Little things, barely inconspicuous, that can easily be missed if you're not paying attention or are distracted by a nearby enemy. The concept of discovering things going on outside of the castle while you're in it adds an extra streak of mystery to the great adventure.

And of course:•Hell/Demon Realm accessible through stained glass also being the retro style level.

EDIT: I also imagine a circular stair tower that spins to keep you centered as you climb. Being 2.5D I'm not sure that would be so hard. Also, the aforementioned crystal sculpture idea can be old alchemists now being Gebel's trophy art.

I remember IGA saying that though the bestiary for this game would focus on the Lesser Key of Solomon, he still had a fondness for the old-school monsters. I know one section of the castle is supposed to be a "retro level" with retro graphics and all that. It would be kind of interesting if in this retro section you would find those old school monsters (werewolves, mummies, etc.). It would be even cooler if that section of the Castle was in Black & White for the full "retro" flavor.

I'm not sure what type of castle section would best correspond to that though. A morgue or cemetery (within the castle yard)? A library?

I want to see some hidden shortcuts, instead of "just" a couple of rooms of secret passages, something more useful like shortcuts would be great. And i would appreciate to see more effort needed to get to some secret rooms, i feel the old <hit every wall and floor on the game> logic to look for all the secret rooms are kinda naive. Something like certain weapons/items/actions required, with minimal hints to the player to find out.

Also i would like to see multiple paths to be taken to get to the key rooms of the game, i mean whole areas that you don't really need to explore to beat the game, but they are there for explorer players. Perhaps some <strange rooms> where certain actions unlock itens/rooms, like an old ruin area where when you <somehow> lit some weird ancient creepy obelisks that ultimately open something on the room giving you an item or access to a new area.

And what about more interaction with the background, stuff like crop plants/flower somewhere, lit/unlit candles, open/close windows, set traps for enemies, drink from water sources, sit on the library and read <real[short] books> about the castle and the game universe history.

I like it a lot more than I originally did when I first play it but my main issue with later Igavania's is very prevalent here.

The layouts are awful. Visually it's one of the better games, especially the castle. It's artistically very cool. Unfortunately, the way they layout these locations is very dull and repetitive. It's a game full of copy and paste backgrounds into hallways and big square rooms. You play SOTN and the way they layout the locations isn't in a repetitive way and it's more often than not has some geometry that isn't repeated over and over. You have the entrance area----> into hallway--->room with merman and a stone structure with water at the bottom---> repeating hallway----> into room where death sees you.

I REALLY, REALLY hope they strive to correct this and I always hoped that was a budgetary/time constraint issue. It always bugged me how much more copy and pasted the games got as it went along. Aria of Sorrow and SOTN were the two games that really strived to have a well designed castle imo.

And of course:•Hell/Demon Realm accessible through stained glass also being the retro style level.

EDIT: I also imagine a circular stair tower that spins to keep you centered as you climb. Being 2.5D I'm not sure that would be so hard. Also, the aforementioned crystal sculpture idea can be old alchemists now being Gebel's trophy art.

Adding to it from what I have read from the posts after this one, many peeps have thought a theatre room would be good as well. Personally, it would be pretty cool to house an Easter egg or two from one of IGA's previous games or any of Inti's games, though as a full on area, I'm not so sure it'll hold up. HOWEVER, there could be an entertainment lounge or a sort of Den that could lead to the theater room. Also some good ideas:

Boiler Room

Swamplands outside of the castle

A retro room mirroring the final boss room from SotN

Test Subject Area besides the Alchemy Lab

Caverns that were excavated below the castle

Wine cellar

Exotic pet room, where the more perfected subjects and more ferocious and unaltered beasts roam the halls

Not sure if this topic has been brought up yet, but it is related to Castle Design (and a bit of Boss design). I am speaking of environmental impacts from the Megaman X series. You defeat a certain boss/level, and it affects other regions. I like the idea behind this because we can make it intentionally easier, or harder on ourselves depending on how we tackle the castle.

A quick concept on how it could work in terms of ROTN: We enter an armory, and it is relatively difficult to travel through due to the unique armed enemies that inhabit this region. Maybe we skip the armory for now, and instead take on a boss that happens to take place in a region above the armory, and the boss fight ends up with us collapsing through the floor into the main weapons stock below, effectively breaking most weapon/armor in there. A positive for this approach is that it opens up easier travel through the armory region, by taking away the weapons that fuel the foes there, and also creating a shortcut between two regions (from the collapsed floor). A negative to this approach could be that we may have missed some good weapons/armors in the armory if we didn't get it before the boss' demise.

If something like this is implemented though, then I believe there should also be an option to not destroy the environment as well. For example, maybe I want to get through the default armory later once I am stronger. Then there should be multiple ways to fight a boss, one that doesn't involve destroying the floor to kill it.

Even though I know it probably won't be possible too often, if this option is available even just a few times, that'd be great. This'll open up a more organic feel to the game with our choices having actual impact in the world, and it'll vary our experiences and paths through the castle as well as making it stand out that much more from other Metroidvanias.

Based on this quote from the kickstater “It is said that his real purpose in summoning the castle was to give Miriam a place of her own….” desire has been expressed for Miriam to have her own room or small alcove within the castle. It is not a unanimous preference (there are concerns about immersion breaking for example) but of the people who have voiced any opinion on this mater it is the overwhelming preference. I believe precedence has been set in Harmony of Dissonance and I know per the SOTN playthrough with Double Fine that something similar was in the works for that game. Choice quotes can be seen below:

The throne probably shouldn't be in the room by default, honestly. The room should start out more bare with the possibility of upgrading it, in function and in visuals, ideally with several options for each "spot" that can be improved, like different styles of furniture, different sculptures/paintings, etc. or even something practical like shortcuts to different parts of the castle (that aren't already anywhere near a warp point)

I say Miriam should get a high tea room, and Johannes should have an alchemy lab. I don't know who the third character is (not even sure if Johannes is a second character)...I think it should be a steampunk type girl and she should have a tinker room...

Maybe Miriam's room will be upgradable and give perks a la Rogue Legacy. Hey, you never know, Iga played Rogue Legacy and enjoyed it quite a bit.Or maybe you'll be able to sleep in Miriam's room, and the game will incorporate a day&night cycle which will effect enemy appearance, and item drops.

Or combine them both, and upgrade your wooden block of a bed into a queen-sized mattress of the highest quality. +50% to stats for 10 minutes upon waking up from said bed.

Would be nice if the room had paintings (or stained glass windows) on it´s walls showing the areas of the castle she discovered before, which can be used as magical windows for fast traveling to the window in that area and vice versa;)Some kind of ghostly piano for changing that rooms own music to a track she heard before would be also nice.

I don't like the room to be too much upgradable, since that would require more coding that is not devtime spent with the main game. This should come more as an afterthought, though I do not want it to be bare bones...

Having said that here is my input to this thread.

I would love two different kind of rooms; here is my reasoning. One room should look complete and majestic, while the other room is run down. While the majestic room would reflect Gebel's true intent (building the castle as a shelter); the run down version would be, what remained from his dream.

The room would appear in different locations, for saving purpose and would be explained to the player, that the dormant wish of Gebel is helping Miriam to survive. The run down version would only be able to save progress, while the majestic version would heal her and give her boons and sometimes even a hidden treasure. Naturally you will find the rundown Version more often than the majestic one.

As a feature, I would love that the majestic version and the boons and / or treasure it despenses reflect they playstyle of the player. Does the player use more aggressive tactics? The room will be stuffed with all kinds of weapons and armor and would be more militaristic. Though, if you use a lot of summons or magic, it would be more esoteric...

OR intertwine it with the story, does Miriam make more bad decisions than good? Well now the room is more eerie and dark. More good than bad? Well, let it be more radiant.

In any case I would love to have the room rather reflect player's choices than actual be fully customized.

Post by crocodile on Aug 5, 2015 18:46:29 GMT -6

Summary: Igavanias have always been known for their wide range of daring and dastardly monsters. The Lesser Key of Solomon is a source that has been tapped for inspiration in the past (even in prior Igavania games) but not to the extent it looks like it will be explored in this game. A lot of discussion has centered around the expectations of how the Lesser Key will be represented in Bloodstained as well as to what extent of the bestiary will be pulled from other sources – it seemed pretty clear from the Kickstarter that we could expect adversaries inspired by sources other than the Lesser Key.

To that end, discussion centered on the type of monsters people liked and hoped to see as well as how they might act. Though a wide range of potential monsters were discussed, the below came up frequently:

Skeletons: Big, small, running, flying, surfing, throwing assorted things at you, etc. People consistently expressed their love of skeletons of various sorts – they didn’t even have to made of bone (crystal and stained glass were mentioned for not only skeletons but other potential monsters as well). Skeletons are pretty basic goth/horror so they probably should be an easy fit for any sort of gothic world? If you agree, feel free to go wild with regards to their designs and behaviors, the more variety the better.

Classic Monsters: In addition to skeletons, standard gothic creatures like bats, zombies, spirits, wolves and lycanthropes, etc . were creatures many people were interested in seeing again. As a new IP, we are looking forward to the brand new monsters and type of monsters that might appear – even amongst all our suggestions please don’t be afraid to stray off the beaten path. We just want to let you know that we still like some of the “classic” monsters as well so don’t consider them off limits. All that being said, skeletons and other “classic” monsters might be better served as minor enemies and perhaps sub-bosses than something like actual bosses (though no strong consensus has been reached on this point). Giant Skeleton/Bat/etc. has been a boss in more than one Castlevania game and that might be best avoided in Bloodstained’s main castle (Classic Mode and the Rouge Dungeon-mode are different).

Armed and Armored Monsters: Swords, Lances, Archery, with or without armor, etc. are all ways to expand the offensive repertoire of the enemies which in turn expands the type of challenges the enemies can present to the player. This includes spectral enemies (spirits as mentioned before) that may have either possessed weapons or using weapons themselves. Just as people are excited to see what sort of arsenal the playable cast will have at their disposal, they are also excited to see the sort of arsenal available to the enemies.

Draconic, Angelic and Lovecraftian Enemies: Dragons and Angels, or enemies with draconic and angelic elements, is something people have expressed interest in multiple times – be they “minor” enemies or “major” enemies. Monsters inspired by the works of H.P. Lovecraft don’t have a specific race but they certainly have a specific "feel"; many were fans of the creatures that inhabited his worlds (and they have been represented in past Igavania games). Thankfully, “Demon” is a pretty broad term and could encompass enemies of these sorts.

Monster Girls: Harpies, Lamia/Nagas, Arachanes, Alura Une, Succubi, Witches, Demon Maids who know Kung Fu, etc. have all been staples of Igavania games and horror in general. It’s unclear how good of a fit they may be in this new IP/world (though Vapar – the 42nd Demon of the Lesser Key seems to fit this mold) but do know there is a lot of demand for them – they seem to be well loved. Like with skeletons, don’t be afraid to take their designs and behaviors to new and unconventional places (For example Succubi tend to look VERY similar across multiple games/series so maybe try something still sexy but "classier" with them?).

Regarding enemy behavior, there was a desire expressed for some enemies to at least be able to work together or attack in groups as well as be more proactive and more aware of your presence. Generally smarter enemies are appreciated though certainly not all of them need be geniuses :P. Enemies with character and personality were also remembered fondly (examples include the Owl Knight and Yorick from SOTN and how the former would act when its partner died or Yorick’s “freak out” if its head was destroyed).

Some choice excerpts related to this topic from all the highlighted threads can be found below:

I hope there's a few "shielded" enemies. Like in Shovel knight where the shielded knight-looking foes would block most of your attack so you would have to change up your attack patterns. I know they'll probably add more attack patterns for enemies for New Game+ so that'll be exciting to see.

Some undead alchemists would be nice to see as well. Using all kinds of powers like just a straight power blast, flying bouncing energy balls, and/or maybe summons strong demons (and it could maybe be randomized as well. So every time you enter the room, you have no idea what powers that alchemist would use). For new game+, the alchemists could use all of their previous spells, plus a few new ones. Maybe even merge with a summoned demon to heal it + give it extra damage!

On the subject of summoning, maybe there could be necromancers. I don't remember the game, but I'm pretty sure there's quite a few that use the same idea, where enemies (such as skeletons or zombies) continue to spawn until you stop the enemy summoning them. Maybe the "necromancer" doesn't even have to summon anything, but continually boosts the enemies stats in that certain room (and maybe an item could be worn to limit/prevent stat boosting magic such as that). For New Game+ the necromancers could summon stronger enemies, while stat boosting and be able to heal from the damage that his/her/it's monsters does to you.

Speaking of stat boosting, there could be enemies whose sole purpose is to temporarily chip away at your stats for every hitpoint it takes from you (It could last a few seconds or even up to a minute). For that enemy type I can picture something annoying like the fleamen or medusa heads doing that type of work. For this game in particular it could be flying animal parts? (Since most of those demons have some part of an animal) Each different animal part could have varying speeds/damage output. For New Game+ the stats lowering could have a longer effect (like 2 minutes).

I personally would like to see an Incubus type of enemy. The Castlevania series is notorious for scantly clad succubi with breasts the sizes of watermelons, I wouldn't mind seeing large muscular winged hot guys wearing g-strings, with pecs and packages that bounce about with the smallest movement. You know, like how they do succubi and their breasts.

double standards aside, some eye pleasing male enemy types WOULD be nice considering there isnt a game that has ever done that, yet topless female monsters in fiction are the norm for some reason.

Just make it a more organic 3-headed dragon (lose the mechanical design; perhaps give it some stained-glass crystals on parts of its body), and maybe instead make it breath rainbow-colored flames at Miriam.

It could behave similarly to the "Dragon Zombie" from past Castlevania games... OR fly around the large room in which Miriam would fight it in.

(EDIT): One of the heads could breathe the rainbow-colored flames, the other could have frost-breath...and the main head could fire lightning bolts from its mouth.

I would really love to see the Candle Skeleton ever since seeing jim and his icons.

Since this is a game with a distinctly 'gothic' art style, I would love to see crystal versions of classic gothic horror monsters. Crystal vampires or a crystallized version of Frankenstein's monster. I really enjoyed the art design of the Crystal Caves in Dark Souls especially Seath the Scaleless. A tougher, high-level enemy that is stationary with it's torso trapped in an outcropping of crystal would be both visually stunning and a memorable encounter.

To be quite honest, the type of monsters that really appeal to me are the ones that fit more into the arachnid, insect, mollusc, reptile and vegetation mould or lovecraftian style. Even human/insect hybrids. Something that stirs the imagination in the twisted jungles of the mind. Nasty forms that kinda defy biology ... hence why dark magic would be used to create them that could blend seamlessly into a storyline like Bloodstained.

Anyway, relating to Castlevania games, these are some of the creatures that deserve to be bigger and better -

Giant Skeleton Archer - Imagine being stopped in your tracks by a 20ft tall skeleton boss that shoots arrows the size of spears. Of course, some arrowheads would be also be explosive too.

Giant Tanjelly - An enormous, colour-changing beast of a blob. Capable of long/short range acid and glue attacks. Stalks and rapidly pounces on its victim before digesting it. Also has the ability to teleport.

Giant Corpseweed - This nighmare of a colossal weed sprouts lots of ugly heads that spits cursed blood and vomits large pools of poison. Its vast arm-like root system reaches out from the soil to pull victims underground.

Giant Ukoback - Knows all manner of pyro and levitates around creating carpets and curtains of fire. A huge, hideous firebug who torches any living thing that gets in his way.

I like monsters with their own hierchy. For example, instead of just goblins, you will have goblin chiefs, goblin knight, goblin medic, goblin barbarian, etc. Not just to provide a number of enemies using little imagination, but to also have them come in squads or whatever later on and have the player appreciate how they act differently under different leadership and stuff.

Add in some angelic enemies. You could make it a chaos vs. law type deal. One of the music composers brought up how he wanted to make different kinds of music and brought up and angel type enemy as a possibility, make it happen.

What would be the goal for an angel to so clearly make it Miriam's enemy?Whatever religion you decide to pull from probably would label alchemists as heretics and all manner of instrumentation and byproducts of their experiments to be innately heathenish.Angels would regularly attack Miriam due to her background, regardless of her actual stance on anything, simply because of what the alchemists have done to her.

Since angels wouldn't side with the demons, they would naturally be a third party in relation to Miriam and Gebel. You could possibly have angels and demons fighting each other, and have Miriam able to take advantage of the skirmish.You could even have defeated angels serve as another source of abilities for Miriam to harness. We've been told she'll be able to harness the power of defeated demons to some extent. That could be extended to angels as well.

I always loved normal enemies with a character to them.From SotN, Yorick and how he panics when you destroy his skull and the Owl Knight and how he morns when you kill his owl. I would like enemies like those.

I think a legion type enemy would be interesting; you face a group of small skeletons with weak attacks and you can easily break them or jump over them, but if you break them all their bones gather as one and form a powerful skeleton giant.

It'll be nice to have the skeletons and bats again, but hopefully there's quite a bit more variety for them since this castle will be huge. Overall, most enemy types should hopefully have a place in the castle, and we don't start seeing things that are questionable. (Lame example: Skeletons in the library.) Not trying to discriminate against scholarly skeletons, but hopefully they at least look like they fit the theme of the region haha. I think that's what Igarashi was worrying about most.

I personally would like to see some classics again, as long as we get a good variety of everything else though. And for New Game+ I also hope that the enemies get extra tricks up their sleeves. Maybe skeletons will learn to backdash or something?

I don't see why classic enemies (as in ones with generic ties to horror and not specific ties to Castlevania like Medusa heads) couldn't come back. I think the important thing to do is make sure they feel distinctive to Bloodstained by giving them interesting and unique interpretations. Bats and Skeletons could be found in almost any horror game but Bats and Skeletons made out of say stained glass would be unique to Bloodstained (as an example, I don't think the "stained glass well" is the only one that should be or is worthy of being mined).

Bosses should stay in their designated areas because part of building a good boss battle is incorporating the environment into the actual conflict. It influences how the boss can move and attack as well as puts limits on how you can move. Engineering strong and noteworthy battles is made easier and better if you can control for factors like that.

As for regular enemies, I do agree that most regular enemies in Igavania games could stand to have their AI improved be it more aggression or at least being more cognizant of your presence. Having them follow you around the castle seems a bit much because in Igavania games, enemy placement is part of level design.

If there was a singular, SA-X like enemy in the game you could do interesting narrative things with it but that has to be a big part of the story and up to if Iga wants to write something like that.

Regarding environmental traps and such, I'm reminded of the Training Hall from Order of Ecclesia. That was some quality platforming but without the bottomless pits Iga hates!

It's good to share and debate ideas, but just remember people are important too. We needed each other to help make this game happen and we still need each other to help this game reach its full potential. I appreciate you guys making the effort to maintain a civil tone.

Just to add my own 2 cents. Most of the monster behaviors we've seen haven't changed much since the very first Castlevania. Thankfully Igarashi has a fresh canvas to play around with monster AI. Mindless zombies are fine behaving like mindless zombies, but armored guards and hellish demons should have a healthy variety of attacks. As for a SAX-type enemy who can stalk you from room to room, that would be most appropriate for a boss --but context will make or break that idea.

Hard Mode is probably the most appropriate place to introduce challenging AI.

Something I'd really like to see are monsters who react to each other and work as a team to defeat you. I also like friendly fire. Suppose an Axe Armor chucks his namesake across the room, it should damage any monster stupid enough to get in the way! Maybe they could even block or jump over the Axe... All sorts of unexplored possibilities...

I know Iga said it is not his focus when contrasting his style with that of Demons/Dark Souls, and it shouldn't be. But I feel like it has a place in the realm of gothic horror. And he has regularly included Cthulhu (who via a translation screw up in SoTN has been dubbed Malachi). And honestly the fishmen of Castlevania are far more similar to the Deep Ones from Lovecraft's work then the monster in Creature from the Black Lagoon. Would you like to see some Lovecraftian enemies or bosses? Maybe a monster straight out of his work like Cthulhu or Dagon, or something original that fits the same weird cosmic horror mold. I wouldn't mind at all.

Post by crocodile on Aug 5, 2015 23:36:16 GMT -6

crocodile I'm trusting you got all the most relevant quotes from all those threads you mentioned. Thanks, it saves me a lot of time not weeding out the conversation that happens naturally.

I can go over the threads again if you want but I'm pretty sure I got a good, wide representation of opinions. I tied to avoid/minimize posts that were too specific (i.e. I want this type of monster that looks exactly like this, acts exactly like this, is located in exactly this part of the castle, etc.) as those trend more towards directives than suggestions and have little overlap with the opinions of others (so are less representative of group opinions). The Enemy Behavior thread was tricky as that was comprised of walls upon walls upon walls of text of people arguing with each other which were not at all conducive to quoting. So I just tried to summarize the sentiments I saw there within the text of the summary section of that post.

Post by H on Aug 9, 2015 9:03:17 GMT -6

I saw that it was in the suggestions category, but not submitted yet. Taking a few quotes from the Boss mechanics thread.It was originally a poll to determine whether people wanted tank-like bosses or bosses with unique mechanics and ways to bring them down. Most people voted for both.

Regarding bosses. Please don't place every boss at the very end of every new area. Part of what made SOTN great was it didn't feel so gamey in that sense. It didn't feel Stagey, sometimes a boss was placed somewhere near the end of a new area but a lot of times it was somewhere near by, it makes it feel more believable. It's a castle not a staged based game

First and foremost, the Puppet Master is a pain to take on solo. I enjoyed how he moved about the stage, but felt that he was a little one note...I don't mind losing to a boss with a complex pattern if it means I learn just what it takes to take them down a notch. I'm eager to see just what IGA brings to Bloodstained...the unique and varied locales of the castle can always lend a fun element to boss battle. Fighting Frankenstein's Monster in the Alchemy Lab? Force him into the vat of acid you had to jump over earlier and watch as it peels off a quarter of his health! I don't mind straight up damage races as long as they're memorable though!

Yeah, i'm totally agree. Using elements of the scenario is a feature that was almost never considered by developers in previous igavania games. This can be a very interesting idea. They should also introduce elements that can OHKO some bosses, but anyway difficult to find/use, to encourage players in finding alternative and original ways to kill the most powerful enemies.

Definitely keep it varied. Have some bosses use unique attacks,while some of the just be tanks for possibly earlier areas. Also, unrelated to both ideas, but it'd be cool if we finished off a boss but it came back. For example:

We finish off a boss, it "dies", it comes back maybe in the next room, causing us to become nervous but maybe it'll go down in a hit or two (or it just dies off finally on it's own). Or maybe it goes into a second phase.I remember fighting that particular boss in Super Metroid, and although the fight itself wasn't anything special, the fact that it's physically destroyed, it tried to come after us anyway, left me being more cautious of bosses after that, wondering if they would pull something similar.

I do a little amateur game design in my free time (nothing published, just word documents and maps in notebooks), but the one I'm working on has a powerful necromancer as a recurring enemy. &nbsp;The game map has a little bit of forced backtracking (there are warp points so it isn't really a pain in the butt) and level design bottlenecks at boss rooms. &nbsp;They aren't always at the end of the area, but most of the bosses are mandatory, so the player winds up in the room during progression, and due to intentional design, passes through a few of them again during backtracking. &nbsp;Boss corpses remain in the rooms, partially because I want players to look at them and feel a sense of accomplishment, and partially because I'm a dirty little trickster.

Most necromancers I see in games don't really raise corpses, they actually just kind of summon zombies and skeletons and stuff out of the ground, whether it's plausible for them to be there or not, and you usually don't see the bodies beforehand. &nbsp;Manzazuu, on the other hand, does both. &nbsp;When you enter a certain boss room, Manzazuu appears, rezzes the boss and quickexits stage left, leaving the player locked in a room with this giant, rotting, vengeful creature. &nbsp;I think it's hilarious, and if it ever gets published, hopefully players will too.

I'm thinking for Gebel or Iga specifically, they would behave like Dracula for the first 3 or 4 times you strike them. Once you do that, they say something along the lines of "Screw this" and the real boss battle(s) start where they have a completely different pattern. I think that would be a nice joke.

Ok seriously though, I like my bosses aggressive. Most of the bosses in Order of Ecclesia or Dawn of Sorrow for example put up a hell of a fight. It keeps the battles intense and interesting. They were a mixture of the high HP attack sponges and the unique mechanics.

This may be a 3D game, but the bosses in Devil May Cry 1, 4, and especially 3 felt like a test of the skills you've learned so far. If Miriam learned, say the ability to wall jump, there could be a boss that tests your ability to wall jump.

It'd be nice to have a few bosses that have a unique mechanic that we "steal" from them afterwards. I remember Metroid Fusion specifically used this as a way to gain upgrades. An example of what I mean: In the game there is a boss named Serris, a giant aquatic serpent that attacks by going at super speeds. You defeat the boss, and absorb the "X-parasite" leftover from the fight to grant you the "Speed Booster" ability.&nbsp;

I guess this wouldn't too different from Aria of Sorrow, except that with that game the soul drops were randomized and weren't necessary to proceed if I remember correctly. I like to imagine the fear in our foes when we use their former masters' abilities against them.

Main thing I left out was a misunderstanding that occurred in the thread.

Inticreates are masters of boss fights - many in the Zero and ZX series where just fabulous and though I haven't had a chance to play Gunvolt yet the bosses look great in there too. I think bosses that are memorable with unique mechanics, aesthetics, attack patterns, etc. are the way to go. Being a meat shield is not the important part of a boss battle but rather one that keeps you on your toes at all times, makes you flex your movement and attack repertoire, and rewards dexterity (while being fair and not cheap) and smart thinking (as well as some good preparation before the fight). Engaging the environment is also key, I think its more fun if not every boss encounter takes place in the same sort of large square room and the terrian plays into the nature of the fight. To that end, I just hope the bosses come in a wide range of forms - from human sized to the absolutely gigantic and everything in between. Order of Ecclesia I already thought was taking Igavania boss fights in a good direction. That combined with Inticreates experience gives me strong hopes.

Post by crocodile on Aug 9, 2015 10:17:34 GMT -6

Summary: Familiars have been a beloved part of the Igavania DNA since the days of SOTN and have enjoyed a place in most of the Igavania games that have followed. Many backers were unsure if they would return for Bloodstained but were pleasantly surprised when that was confirmed to be the case. They often weren’t crucial to the actual completion of the game but they expanded your combat and exploration abilities, often opening up new areas of the castle/terrain, in new and inventive ways. Naturally, discussion has followed on what we loved most about these little buddies as well as ways we thought the familiar familiar experience could be improved. Aspects of familiar design that are important to us to be considered:

Variety: Variety is important not only aesthetically but also in function. This isn’t telling you anything you don’t already know - the four familiars shown off for the vote during the Kickstarter campaign already had strong aesthetic variety (something that hopefully carries on to all the familiars in the final game) and its clear from the Kickstater update that you are looking into a wide range of abilities. Many of the familiars in some Igavania games overlapped a bit too much in form and function so it is very encouraging to see you are already addressing this issue. Some interesting specific ability suggestions are included in the thread highlights below. Feel free to poach or expand upon whichever ones you think are fun or useful.

Usefulness: In many past Igavanias, it felt like there was an optimal familiar(s) to use. A few stood head and shoulders above the rest while others were reduced to gimmicks or perhaps were useful for only one sequence. As a common pitfall across games in general - when a variety of “buffs” are offered, increased damage output is almost always the optimal strategy. Avoiding such a pitfall is naturally hard in game design, and perhaps just impossible, but it would be appreciated if it was something you could keep in the forefront of your minds. It is unclear if the issue is best resolved by trying to make each familiar equally optimal to use (in reality not just “on paper”) and having the player just choose which way they want to play the game or have the game throw a variety of challenges/enemies at you so that the best/easiest way to overcome them is to change and switch your familiars frequently. Other ways to tackle to issue certainly exist as well – we are confident you are equipped to find the solution the most fun for the largest audience. Again, we just want to make sure you keep this topic in the forefront of your minds.

Acquisition: How familiars have been obtained in past Igavanias has varied. Sometimes they have been acquired through cards, enemy drops (souls and glyphs), statues, etc. The consensus reached amongst us through discussion seems to be in favor of a multi-faceted approach (if it’s realistic to implement of course). That is to say some familiars obtained through the course of the narrative, some obtained by crafting and some obtained by optional exploration of the castle.

Familiar Upkeep and Care: There are certainly benefits in keeping this relatively simple (such as the simple leveling system of SOTN) and some would appreciate this. Many have suggested the ability to customize or upgrade Familiars with items (such as crafting elements like crystals in this specific case), weapons and armor. Though it is a game that seems to have been underplayed and underappreciated, the familiar (Innocent Devil) system in Curse of Darkness was discussed and praised by those who had experience with the game. Perhaps there is good that can be mined and refined from that system. A small alcove or room within the castle that may be conducive to training or raising familiars has also been discussed though its mostly been championed by a few individuals as opposed to an overwhelming group outcry - either way its certainly something that would appeal to some people.

Control: Most familiars in Igavania games have tended to be pretty automonous – set it and forget though they may occasionally mirror your attacks. It would be very much appreciated to be able to exert more control over them in regards to the specific use and timing of their abilities, setting which abilities they can use and when, setting which items they can use and when, etc. It need not be something especially elaborate but it would be a welcome change to not have to solely rely on their AI. A possible consideration is tying specific abilities, though perhaps only especially powerful and resource consuming abilities, to command motions (see the Sword Brothers skill in SOTN).

Some found, some crafted. I wonder which would be more beneficial/powerful. Crafting may be time consuming and require grinding, while simply locating them wouldn't be all that difficult. Unless they were well hidden.

This is how I most likely see it playing out, or at least the most wanted.

1. A couple easy to find/story progression based2. 1-2 hard ones by meeting certain requirements such as beating optional bosses or max exploration type.3. 2-3 where you have to quest and find the pieces but then have to use the alchemy system to put them together and fill it with a demon soul.

I wonder if there will be a familiar pen... or at least a room where you can care for them... or at least find some one to take care of them. Maybe a demon... wouldn't it be cool if you could capture demons. turn them and make them take care of stuff in your room (if there is a room for Miriam in the game). And the stronger the demon the more powerful your familiars will become.

But I think it should be included in the bestiary, weather the demon has the aptitude for helping

I am agreeing with armor/weapons changes for the familiars with fewer familiars that make them less generic. The upgrades could give them new/alternate abilities or just be cosmetic. Either way I'd enjoy it.

I think the two things I'm hoping for is thatA) We are given a bit more direct control over the familiars. Like the ability to direct them to do specific actions with maybe command inputs of something

B) That however many familiars we get, they are all useful in some regard. Like I thought any familiar that wasn't the Fairy or Sword in SOTN was pretty worthless except for those like two spots you needed the Devil familiar to flip switches

Lets hope for a Familiar-System similar to the one Iga showed in Curse of Darkness^^That I.D.´s (innocent Devils) had 6 base-types and evolved to lots of different forms via leveling and weapon crystals.Every form of the Familiar got a new skill but had even the skills from its previous forms^^

A familiar or familiar ability that helps with acquiring gold/hearts (or rather whatever the Bloodstained parallels are) or one that influences luck and item/crystal drops would probably be super helpful, especially for those trying to go for 100%+ completion runs of the game or trying to collect all the items/weapons/etc.

Inticreates are masters of boss fights - many in the Zero and ZX series where just fabulous and though I haven't had a chance to play Gunvolt yet the bosses look great in there too. I think bosses that are memorable with unique mechanics, aesthetics, attack patterns, etc. are the way to go. Being a meat shield is not the important part of a boss battle but rather one that keeps you on your toes at all times, makes you flex your movement and attack repertoire, and rewards dexterity (while being fair and not cheap) and smart thinking (as well as some good preparation before the fight). Engaging the environment is also key, I think its more fun if not every boss encounter takes place in the same sort of large square room and the terrian plays into the nature of the fight. To that end, I just hope the bosses come in a wide range of forms - from human sized to the absolutely gigantic and everything in between. Order of Ecclesia I already thought was taking Igavania boss fights in a good direction. That combined with Inticreates experience gives me strong hopes.

Summary: Major topics of discussion were our favorite types of potential enemies (especially sourced from outside the Lesser Key of Solomon), overall enemy representation and composition and finally general enemy behavior.

Enemy Types of Yore (these garnered the most discussion and demand):• Skeletons: Of all ranges of shapes, sizes, colors, behaviors and abilities - people love skeletons• Classic Monsters: Bats, zombies, wolves, spirits, etc. would be great to see in non-boss roles. They, or some variation of them, might make good bosses in Classic mode though.• Armed & Armored Monsters: Swords, Lances, Archery, etc. People want a large variety of well-equipped and trained foes.• Iconic Monsters: Angelic, Draconic & Lovecraftian enemies were the most requested be they in small or big (boss?) roles.• Monster Girls: A fan-favorite sub-group of monsters. Harpies, Lamia/Nagas, Arachanes, Alura Une, Succubi, Gorgons, Witches, Demon Maids who knowKung Fu, etc.

Overall Enemy Composition and Representation:• With crystals and stained glass being thematic of Bloodstained, enemies made of those (or other unexpected materials) would be cool•Though we remember fondly the monsters of the past, we are still looking forward to the new monsters (Lesser Key, etc.) that will populate this game. The number of “new” monsters should exceed number of “old” monsters (60/40? 70/30?)• Even with “old” monsters, try putting a new spin on them or taking them in new directions that a new IP affords. "Break the Shackles" so to speak. As an example, If you include Succubi try an original conceptual/aesthetic spin (they tend to look the same across different series) or even try a mixup by including Incubi as well. Enemy Behavior:• Include some enemies that can work together and/or attack in groups (squads?)• Include some more proactive enemies & those more aware of your presence. • Maybe a few (or a singular event based adversary) enemy that can give chase?• Include enemies with “personality” (Owl Knight and Yorick of SOTN are classic examples)

As always, see linked threads for more specific suggestions and thoughts

Post by crocodile on Aug 13, 2015 15:16:53 GMT -6

Summary: Once the return of Familiars was confirmed discussion immediately followed about what we liked about them, what we didn’t like about them and how the familiar system might be improved. The discussion focused around 5 major subjects:

Variety• It is important that there is variety in aesthetics; the familiars should all look very different from each other. The variety displayed during KS campaign was encouraging so keep that up.• It is important that there is variety in function. Many familiars in past Igavanias were too similar often offering only slight variations in attack patterns. Different manners of attack are of course appreciated but shouldn’t be everything.• Interesting familiar abilities we brainstormed can be found in the linked thread and include (feel free to take any you feel are good):o ability that helps with acquiring gold/hearts (or rather whatever the Bloodstained parallels are) by either multiplying how much drops are worth or turning enemies into themo ability that influences luck and item/crystal drops o ability to stop time briefly o ability to create portals to warp short distanceso ability to do something wacky like making small enemies dance

Usefulness• In the past, it felt like there was an optimal familiar(s) to use. A few stood head and shoulders above the rest while others were reduced to gimmicks or perhaps were useful for only one sequence. • If possible and within reason, try to make each equally useful (in reality not just “on paper”). • Two possibilities we envision to address usefulnesso Player chooses which one(s) to use based on personal preference. Any choice is viable and frequent swaps are unnecessary.o Player chooses to change familiars often because wildly different scenarios encourage use of wildly different familiars.• There isn’t a consensus among us as to which method is better. If you have a preferred solution feel free to use that.

AcquisitionWith regards to how to acquire familiars in game, consensus is for a mix of the following:• some familiars obtained through the course of the narrative• some obtained by crafting• some obtained by optional exploration of the castleHow many of each fall under which category is best left to your discretion

Familiar Upkeep and Care• Some have suggested the ability to customize or upgrade familiars with items (such as crafting elements like crystals in this specific case), weapons and armor. • Not many are familiar with the Innocent Devil system of Curse of Darkness but those who played it praised it. Perhaps look to that system and see what good qualities from that system that can be mined and/or refined? • Some are in favor of a small alcove or room within the castle that may be conducive to training or raising familiars

Control• Though most familiars in the past have been pretty autonomous (though they may occasionally mirror your attacks) there is a strong desire to be able to exert some more control over them here.• More control in regards to the specific use and timing of their abilities, setting which abilities they can use at all and when, setting which items they can use and when, etc. • Perhaps commands can be issued to them via simple command motions (see the spells in SOTN)? This can include small actions as well as powerful skills (such as the Sword Brothers skill in SOTN).

Post by crocodile on Aug 16, 2015 10:41:58 GMT -6

Summary: The topic of discussion was about time in Bloodstained, especially in the context of a night and day system: if it would be a good fit for Bloodstained and how it might materialize within the context of this game. General consensus was as follows:

• People were strongly in favor of a day and night system• People are hesitant to tie it directly to the actual game clock. For example, it can be difficult to play during the day due to one’s job. • A 14 minute day/night cycle was suggested though many feel it should be longer• Day/night may represent itself aesthetically (sun or moonlight shining through a window, different objects are lit at different times, etc.)o If part of the castle aims for a specific mood/design rationale that day/night may interfere with, mood/design should be preserved above all else• Day/night may represent itself mechanically (enemy behavior or power may change, items and equipment may change in nature, etc.)• Day/night may tie into castle exploration (Ex: shining light available only during specific times may reveal secret rooms & passages). o However that probably should avoided be for passages and rooms of the castle that you must explore to complete the game o It is best for regions of the castle you can choose to explore or tied to the better/best endings of the game rather than the default • A few suggested that a few minor events could be tied to “special days” (holidays or your birthday)

Post by XombieMike on Aug 16, 2015 14:11:05 GMT -6

Summary: The topic of discussion was about time in Bloodstained, especially in the context of a night and day system: if it would be a good fit for Bloodstained and how it might materialize within the context of this game. General consensus was as follows:

• People were strongly in favor of a day and night system• People are hesitant to tie it directly to the actual game clock. For example, it can be difficult to play during the day due to one’s job. • A 14 minute day/night cycle was suggested though many feel it should be longer• Day/night may represent itself aesthetically (sun or moonlight shining through a window, different objects are lit at different times, etc.)o If a section of the castle aims for a specific mood/design rationale that day/night may interfere with, mood/design should be preserved above all else• Day/night may represent itself mechanically (enemy behavior or power may change, items and equipment may change in nature, etc.)• Day/night may tie into castle exploration (Ex: shining light available only during specific times may reveal secret rooms & passages). o However that probably should be for passages and rooms of the castle that you must explore to complete the game o It is best for regions of the castle you can choose to explore or tied to the better/best endings of the game rather than the default • A few suggested that a few minor events could be tied to “special days” (holidays or your birthday)

With the exception of what I have just quoted, I have submitted everything from this point up. crocodile I see you aren't really using the lists button to make your lists. Why not? If you write them in preview mode instead of BBCode mode it is much easier.

...they were necessitated before by being just standard, classic vampire hunting implements, becoming amazing fantastical/Japanese interpretations thereof, but now we have demons and curses. Crosses, holy water, Bibles, etc might be seen as somewhat out of place. I think they could fit, if presented well, but there's no talk of vampires or even subweapons for them to seem as natural as they were in Castlevania.

I myself own a good bit of vampire hunting accessories, using them to dress up as one for Halloween one year recently. The idea of using holy weapons to take out monsters is just awesome to me. The Belmonts' strongest weapons classically were the more Christianity-leaning ones, as it happens, which aided in my enthusiasm for them.

This game, as with other recent Castlevania games, seems to trend more toward taking down foes that use occult powers with your own occult powers, as a reformed "bad guy" yourself, antihero, rebellious son/incarnation of the evil you're fighting, etc. That's all cool, but I'm hoping maybe that one of the characters is just a hunter commissioned by/from the church or something that may use relic weapons similar to what I've been talking about, or maybe holy magic similar to the Belnades.

Failing that, just giving Miriam some of these things would be great, too. Even as a minimum if we're just talking about some Holy Sword/Rod type weapons. It's hard to even do much tribute to the legacy series without including some of these things, I think, but I just want to have it said so it's known that such things are at least appreciated by a few fans.

History + fantasy in weapon designs, a staple for Iga already, so some ideas in that vein:

"...Some of these could be starter or mid-level weapons, to fill some of the space leading up to all the mythical named weapons already submitted.

...firebrand, icebrand, thunderbrand. I really like these elemental-oriented swords, they remind one of the oldest of RPGs. In SotN, I got the Marsil, the "powerful sword of flame", which was more or less a powered up firebrand, but was a bit disappointed when I realized there wasn't the same for ice/lightning. These weapons could be swords of any type, but I suppose it would be neat if each design (or their more powered up versions) corresponded to their element, such as:

Firebrand: a European sword with a flamberge style blade or Asian kris (keris). The blades of these resemble flames. I don't think there's actually been a kris weapon in Castlevania and it's actually a design used a good bit historically in Japan.Icebrand: a rapier or smallsword (Arya Stark uses one of these) for thrusting-oriented attacks. A similar sword for a wind design could be great, too, and I've seen a lot of historic designs that use foliage engravings in the hilts for rapiers and cut/thrust swords.Thunderbrand: A katana with thunder god fittings: www.google.com/search?q=raiden+koshirae&biw=1192&bih=568&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI6Z39iNSoxwIVSTk-Ch3WNg_9

As you can see, they are often described as having a skeletal hand curling around the handle, making up the basket of the guard. The pommels are shaped like cats' heads. Perhaps the sword of an undead enemy/boss that attacks with feline beasts? Perhaps something like the owl knight we remember from before. And some of you might remember that one of these actually did make it into Curse of Darkness.

...Japanese games tend to design European swords to be ridiculously large. If it has a cross guard, it's as tall and wide (or larger) than the character using it, and I'd like to see more representation of long swords and single-handed swords that are closer to normalized proportions. SotN was actually pretty good with this, even the claymore and flamberge not being too silly, but with later games and using Soma's weapons particularly, there were a lot of gaudy overhead swing weapons.

And if we're having to forgo a shield to use a two-handed sword, hopefully more than a slight damage boost makes up for it. A unique kind of special attack, increased knockback, larger hitboxes without as much the sacrifice of attack speed (often the real downfall of these weapons). Big swords are cool, but I'd just like them done right...and not a foot wide and look like they weigh 40+ pounds (in reality, swords rarely were over 7-8 lbs/3.5 kg, and if they were, it was something ceremonial)."

Post by crocodile on Aug 16, 2015 14:23:27 GMT -6

Summary: The topic of discussion was about time in Bloodstained, especially in the context of a night and day system: if it would be a good fit for Bloodstained and how it might materialize within the context of this game. General consensus was as follows:

• People were strongly in favor of a day and night system• People are hesitant to tie it directly to the actual game clock. For example, it can be difficult to play during the day due to one’s job. • A 14 minute day/night cycle was suggested though many feel it should be longer• Day/night may represent itself aesthetically (sun or moonlight shining through a window, different objects are lit at different times, etc.)o If a section of the castle aims for a specific mood/design rationale that day/night may interfere with, mood/design should be preserved above all else• Day/night may represent itself mechanically (enemy behavior or power may change, items and equipment may change in nature, etc.)• Day/night may tie into castle exploration (Ex: shining light available only during specific times may reveal secret rooms & passages). o However that probably should be for passages and rooms of the castle that you must explore to complete the game o It is best for regions of the castle you can choose to explore or tied to the better/best endings of the game rather than the default • A few suggested that a few minor events could be tied to “special days” (holidays or your birthday)

With the exception of what I have just quoted, I have submitted everything from this point up. crocodile I see you aren't really using the lists button to make your lists. Why not? If you write them in preview mode instead of BBCode mode it is much easier.

When I tried using the List feature a while back it felt a bit awkward. I feel its easier to just write in Word and then copy & paste. If it makes a big difference I can try List again. Does it make a big difference?

Oh I also slightly edited that Clock Systems post so just be sure to catch that before you submit anything.

Post by XombieMike on Aug 16, 2015 15:02:11 GMT -6

crocodile Yes, using BBCode lists does help out a lot with how these things get transferred to the design review requests. Once you get used to working with them in preview mode they are easy. Even sub-lists are easy. For some reason when I use backspace in sub-lists to delete the first bullet point it makes my browser go back a page and lose what I was working on. Lucky for me I usually copy everything to my clipboard often to prepare for stuff like that.

I post things as (draft) in the subject and continually save it until it's ready then I remove (draft) from the subject line. This way I can save progress as I work and don't feel too rushed.

Post by purifyweirdsoul on Aug 20, 2015 7:25:36 GMT -6

This thread touches on systems of Igavania games such as candles, hearts, shops, the pacing of gameplay, healing and difficulty.

As an aside, as is said by me later in the thread, if we are not getting "hearts" themselves, whatever they end up being, it won't be the same if there's not something falling with a floating leaf's trajectory after we hit candles. That's one of those little aesthetic touches that really made the games special.

cecil-kain on the shifts in the importance of candles and the changes in drop patterns:

This masterpiece abandoned traditional Subweapons in favor of the Tactical Soul System. Subweapon ammo was no longer needed, so hearts became magic points to fuel Bullet, Ability, and Guardian Souls. This transition from subweapons to magic systems had a lasting impact on the series —including a few unintended consequences…

Without subweapons to drop, candles lost their strategic value. And even when subweapons returned for Portrait of Ruin and Harmony of Despair, they returned as collectible equipment instead of tradable powerups. But I digress, that’s a separate complaint…

Without subweapons, the only candle drops left were the small hearts, large hearts, and various amounts of money. Since the Tactical Soul System was a magic system, it was only natural to make heart drops a higher priority than money drops. But instead of each candle dropping a consistent predetermined reward, all candles were rigged to drop small hearts until max out. Then (once the magic meter was full) candles would begin dropping random amounts of money. And therein lies the problem.

In order to collect money from candles, players are forced to STOP using their magic and grind. Do you remember what it was like saving up for that Soul Eater Ring? Yessir, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. No fun with magic. No extra experience points. And no rare drops. Just the most mundane routine —slash candles, collect money, exit room, slash candles, collect money, exit room, lather, rinse, repeat….

This issue had an impact on shop economics as well.

But why bother having a shop if you’re only getting enough money to buy a few potions between boss battles? Why bother having a shop that’s over-stocked with C List equipment you can find elsewhere in the Castle? If I have to grind like hell to get money, the shop should be offering a lot more exclusive must-have items, weapons, armor, accessories, and relics.

But then again, more exclusives would require more money and more grinding…

So let’s get back to the candle drop system. Igarashi has said that Bloodstained will have candle-slashing gameplay, but we don’t know about the drops yet. For the sake of discussion, let’s assume the candles continue dropping hearts and money. Nothing is finalized, but Igarashi currently favors magic over subweapons, so hearts would continue fueling the magic meter.

In my opinion, we should return to the classic system, where each candle drops a consistent predetermined reward. These drops should offer a healthy balance of hearts and money throughout the entire game. But why stop there when we can have the best of both worlds? Why not create special accessories to manipulate the system?

Very good point. I had felt myself in playing the Igavania games (and including SotN) that candles had lost their importance. In some of the games, you could even just outright do without them.

Symphony had subweapons, yes, and they affected your gameplay...but only very early on. Beyond the first few areas of the game, you're likely just letting your hearts sit at max and using your much stronger main weapons, weapon-specific special attacks or spells, all of which used MP, independent in that game of the heart counter. Mid to late game especially, we all found ourselves running around with maxed heart meters. There were even heart max up powerups, heart refresh, an accessory to strengthen a subweapon (the cross, which still wasn't really worth it)...

So, I think the candle problem goes back farther than Aria. Hearts being magic points -is- a good choice, in lieu of there being meaningful subweapons. When your MP meter is maxed, though, I don't think it should affect candle drops, they should indeed be set.

To add further use and strengthen candles once again to something close to the level of classicvania, I'm thinking there could be spell augments/power ups or alchemic components that would in some way give a passive boost to elemental damage types, alter the level of the curse either way to increase/decrease stats, etc. I'm also a fan of the rosary, I have a necklace that looks just like the NES one.

Candles being strong would be good for multiple reasons, not the least of which being how Iga can show he's not just piecing together familiar mechanics for nostalgic effect.

It was then said by others that they felt that money/shops weren't of great importance anyway, so it wasn't much of an issue, but that in itself could be seen as a problem. Then, the thread diverged into something off-topic, and then back again. The magical throne skill was brought up by Galamoth, and that how it would likely recharge Miriam's "MP". Thoughts on that:

I imagine the throne will be a supplemental or occasional type thing, some kind of limited use special move and maybe not the primary means of restoring mana/MP.

I think it's safe to assume that candles will at least be a source of money drops...probably one or more other categories of items. Maybe sometimes materials that the sconces themselves are made of to use in transmutation recipes?

Then, the focus shifts more to the use of menus in order to conume items/how item consumption is handled:

Now that the candle drop discussion has died down, it's time to talk about my Kryptonite.

I know some fans will disagree, but I HATE using curative items in real time.In my opinion, this is the single biggest flaw in Symphony of the Night.

Let's suppose you're losing a boss battle, you don't have the Magic Points for Soul Steal, and you desperately need to recover your Hit Points before you die... A minimum of 8 button clicks are required to go into the menu, equip an item, exit the menu, and use the potion in real time. And if you survive the 2 precious seconds it takes Alucard to recover those Hit Points, you still need to go back into the menu and re-equip your weapon before taking damage --7 more button clicks (presuming you re-equip the same weapon you started with). That's a minimum total of 15 button clicks to use a potion with a 2 second response time and a significant risk of death.

Thank God for Circle of the Moon! I LOVE using potions from the safety of my menu screen!

But then we have Lament's Real Time Window system... Good God, what terrible terrible idea...

Am I alone in my disgust for real time item management? Let's talk it over...

Arcueid pointed out how eating peanuts were a neat, charming aspect of SotN. It was felt that eating food by popping it on-screen was a nice touch by others, however:

The food items were more of a novelty and collectible than something necessary for gameplay. If you had to use a significant amount of food for HP in SotN, man...the issue is probably more you're not fighting whatever you're up against very well at all. If you didn't have MP for Soul Steal, that must mean you already did it once/multiple times because there's not much else worthwhile to use MP on during a boss fight, so...

Yeah, I liked how the food and whatnot was, but mostly because yeah, it wasn't something I actually needed for gameplay. In the later DS games, I did use food for HP a lot more often because I needed to.

edit: This goes back to a core aspect of SotN. Objectively, immediate HP recovery in a game would be ideal...but if you're rarely in danger and have multiple other ways to heal yourself (including save points), then the mechanics of that one health recovery category can be whatever.

A lot of things are relative to SotN's difficulty, like familiar usefulness. Some of them are decent, and can do things at least, but they're also entirely unnecessary. It's not that they should be stronger, per se. It's just the nature of the game, a lot of cool/neat extras are just kinda there.

Along these lines, XombieMike mentions the design choice of limiting curative items:

cecil-kain once mentioned how reducing the maximum curative items from 99 to something like 9 or 10 would be good. I completely agree with this, as I think it would help the game designers better know what to expect from a player's inventory as they are going through an area or fighting a boss. Difficulty could be more predictable that way. Any curative items over the max limit when found would automatically heal you.

When it comes to food animations, I agree their variation and visual aesthetics add to the experience. Having to access them in an inefficient way through menus and equipping them to your hands only to have to re-equip your weapons is pretty pace breaking though. Surely there is a better way to get the benefit of curative item animations with a more accessible setup.

What does everyone think about limiting the item max for curative items?

Reception was more or less positive to this, including myself, and Galamoth noted that he prefers MP-consumption methods of healing opposed to items. I agree with that as well. crocodile on healing items and difficulty:

The thing is, unless you force healing items on the player, the game designer can't assume the player has any. You have to choose to buy potions and you have to choose to pick up wall meat or enemy drops that heal. So in any encounter or scenario, you could have anywhere from the max # of healing items to absolutely zero. If you're going to let the number of healing items influence design, the only sensible thing is to design as if the player has no healing items and just let said items be a way for the player to make the game easier for themselves if they wish or need to. As you've pointed out, the bosses are already designed that way - I'd assume the rest of the game to follow.

On another note, what would it even mean for the sake of difficulty scaling if the game assumed you always had 10 but no more than 10 potions? Enemies hit less hard/are dumber than they would be if you could have 99 potions? Also do we mean "10 item limit" to mean you could have 10 potions, 10 mid potions, 10 hyper potions, etc. or just 10 "potions" of any type? There's also the fact that if you've got a large stockpile of healing items I would assume that is because A) you're buying so many because you need them and a low limit is only a time waster (multiple trips back to the shop or repeated farming even if its not super long each time) or B) you're so good or the game so easy you never need to use them. Either way, I'm not seeing how a low limit encourages better game design in a way a high/no limit wouldn't. Even with a lower limit, its not a variable you can control for.

The thread closes with @jeffcross and JoJo discussing aspects of farming. The potential issue of unintentionally over-leveling while grinding for items was mentioned, which can be mitigated in a number of ways, but an item that drops EXP growth in favor of a luck/drop rate increase was discussed.

Finally, teleportation was mentioned, and @jeffcross ponders if we would be able to create our own warp points. JoJo had been thinking of this as well. I personally think it could be fine, if not abusable and limited in some way.

In closing, however, I just want to stress the passion felt for the importance of candles earlier. And as for healing items, I'd like to throw in now that immediately-consumed wall meat is definitely always welcome as well.

Post by crocodile on Aug 23, 2015 17:02:14 GMT -6

Yeah I had looked at that thread and wanted to write it up but boy was it hard even ignoring the massive derails that happened within. I felt a bit awkward because the conversation about candles and candle drops really depend on how the magic/sub-weapon system in Bloodstained will work. This is a way in which Bloodstained could really differentiate itself from Castlevania so I'm hesitant to make suggestions with so little information on how these systems will play out right now. Those are my current personal feelings.

With regards to food/item usage, I think the best way to distill general consensus is that though there was appreciation for the visual effects using items in SOTN provided, I think most preferred how the item usage system worked in later Igavanias with a quick selection of the item from the menu and a quick recovery. In difficult circumstances where item usage is key, doing stuff like flipping peanuts seems like a good way to get killed. As already said, a lot of these systems are dependent on overall game difficulty and how one goes about healing. I feel like most would agree that one of the few weaknesses of SOTN was how easy it was so I think most would be in favor of a base difficulty that would be better suited to the quick item usage seen in later Igavanias.

With regards to expendable items, I restate my position that has already been quoted: limiting them doesn't actually achieve the design goals set forth (higher difficulty) in a way that's fun or in the spirit of a Metroid/CV/Igavania game. Limiting items in a game like the classic Resident Evils make sense as a way of making your character weak relative to their environment in a constricting way - that's a key element of the horror genre. Though Igavanias have had a horror backdrop, they've never been horror games. The whole point of the Igavania is the sense of empowerment you get at you proceed through the game and gain items/levels. You start weak and eventually become a badass whereas in most true horror you start and remain weak and if you actually succeed its only ever by the skin of your teeth.

With regards to item and EXP farming I think those points were covered in other reviews (i.e. ways to manipulate drops, etc.). Finally with regards to warp points, I think allowing more deliberate placement per the design choices of the developers would be preferred over letting us make custom ones as the positions of warp points has always influenced castle/map design in past Igavanias and I expect that to be the same here. I would add that IF Miriam does end up having her own room, being able to quick teleport back to there from anywhere might be helpful.

Post by crocodile on Aug 23, 2015 19:19:34 GMT -6

XombieMike I would add a link to the Unique ways to platform(Whip swinging/Magnes points/etc.) thread in the Review Request covering Traversal Mechanics. The topic covers something already mentioned in the bullet points of that review but having developer eyes on that thread as well as the original Traversal Mechanics thread would probably be a good idea and I think further demonstrates the demand for something like that.

If not already covered by the Traversal Mechanics review, I'd also add

Ability to move and attack at the same time, especially while grounded, with at least some if not all weapons (See Maria from Rondo of Blood)

Ability to attack in eight directions with at least some if not all weapons (See Super Castlevania IV)

The more Classic Mode is like Super Castlevania IV in terms of movement the better (with modern design sensibilities in place of course & the ability to jump from stairs)

Now that I think about it, I don't think a topic dedicated to Classic Mode and the Classic Castlevania has been done yet. I should fix that.

Post by XombieMike on Aug 30, 2015 13:47:45 GMT -6

( tooting my horn on the first one) realize there wasn't many opinions in that first topic but animations were a huge part on what made SOTN so special

Both topics have already been submitted. Please find the threads dedicated to those conversations and continue the discussion. If enough original progress is made that includes things that would be a good addition to the submission to Team IGA, resubmit the conversation by following the instructions in the first post of this thread.

Post by Dvv on Aug 30, 2015 19:21:53 GMT -6

XombieMike I would add a link to the Unique ways to platform(Whip swinging/Magnes points/etc.) thread in the Review Request covering Traversal Mechanics. The topic covers something already mentioned in the bullet points of that review but having developer eyes on that thread as well as the original Traversal Mechanics thread would probably be a good idea and I think further demonstrates the demand for something like that.

If not already covered by the Traversal Mechanics review, I'd also add

Ability to move and attack at the same time, especially while grounded, with at least some if not all weapons (See Maria from Rondo of Blood)

Ability to attack in eight directions with at least some if not all weapons (See Super Castlevania IV)

The more Classic Mode is like Super Castlevania IV in terms of movement the better (with modern design sensibilities in place of course & the ability to jump from stairs)

Now that I think about it, I don't think a topic dedicated to Classic Mode and the Classic Castlevania has been done yet. I should fix that.

Surprised to see someone suggesting my thread! Quite glad about that.

As for your suggestion I'd have to agree partially with eight directional attacking and moving while attacking. Those shouldn't happen with all weapons but definitely should be some specific weapon types.

crocodile: Thanks for the well wishes everyone. Been busy with life (+ no updates) means I haven't been checking around here super often but do know I still love all you guys Aug 16, 2017 18:11:01 GMT -6