Characters Skyrim Civil War Discussion

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11:45:27 AM Dec 7th 2014

Fanfic:
"However, the faction the player joins is specifically the 4th Legion, a single part of the larger army."
The 4 legion stuff is just fan fic from the wikia and is never stated ingame,in the files or by any dev.

Dawnwing

01:27:55 PM Dec 7th 2014

I've removed it. Something like this doesn't necessarily need a discussion, just an edit note, but at least we've got a record here if someone wonders why it was removed and it's too long after it was edited out.

So the Omnicidal Maniac entry was removed from the Thalmor entry because it's from someone "who doesn't work on the series anymore", to loosely quote. While I am not keen to start an edit war, could I please request a more in-depth explanation? Many thanks and happy troping.

EDIT: I can see that the guy did leave relatively early, but he is seemingly considered a good source and did help on several projects for Oblivion.

SeptimusHeap

04:12:56 AM Aug 15th 2014

I remember a similar dispute coming up in the edit banned appeals topic. Methinks you ought to ask here in the forum thread.

Dawnwing

04:11:33 PM Aug 15th 2014edited by 24.183.25.231

He's considered a good source by some; he's got a following of fans, and is generally either really liked or really disliked. A lot of the stuff he does just come up with on his own and isn't anywhere in the games, and it's highly debatable as to whether it's canon - it could very well just be considered fanfiction since he is no longer involved and it's not in the actual games. I'm an editor on one of the major wikis, and we as a site don't consider it canon (individual members' opinions notwithstanding) and don't document it. Some of his stuff can expand on the world, but stuff like this, which is roughly 90% gibberish and something he wrote about a game he didn't even work on (basically he's saying that the elf queen is a robot from the future, whereas it's pretty clear in the actual game that that doesn't fit in), is an example of why a lot of people don't think his stuff should be treated the same as the actually-from-the-games canon information.

Regarding this entry, which was removed and I added back regarding Hypocrisy from the Stormcloaks:

"They also use the battlecry "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!", which rings hollow when you brush up on history and learn that the Mer races ruled Skyrim until Ysgramor invaded from Atmora and conquered the land in the name of Men."

The reason that this is hypocrisy is that their patriotism and love of Skyrim and their championing themselves as "true" Sons and Daughters of Skyrim falls apart because it used to be Elves that ruled Skyrim, and the ancient Nords went to war with them and killed them or drove them from the land. Really, one could shout back "Skyrim belongs to the Mer!" and they'd be perfectly right, it was theirs first.

This only doesn't come across as self-entitlement if one says the Stormcloaks subscribe to the idea of Might Makes Right. Which maybe they do looking at their overall attitude, but the Talos ban happened precisely because the Empire signed a peace treaty with an enemy they weren't strong enough to destroy outright, so the Stormcloaks still lose the argument.

ssfsx17

11:52:58 AM May 4th 2014

Hear-hear - I hate it when people use Stormcloak logic in real life, and the same goes for any work of fiction.

Given how prone this page is to edit warring over this stuff, I'll post a suggestion for Ulfric's profile rather than edit now.

Hypocrite: He sneers down at the other Jarls who support the Empire, thinking them weak milk-drinkers who just go along with the Empire's nominations for High Kings, and that they have lost sight of the suffering of their people in the war. When the Stormcloaks take over a hold Ulfric has the Jarl replaced with a new one loyal to him, to the point he acknowledges his election as High King will be a Foregone Conclusion, and there's some elves and Argonians in Windhelm who'd like to discuss Ulfric's stance on Jarls ignorant to suffering people living in their holds.

Hypocrite: Ulfric fights for the independence of Skyrim, leading an uprising against the Empire, and denounces the Empire's brutal repression of his rebellion by executing those captured who take part in it. Yet Ulfric did the exact same thing the Empire does when the native Reachmen rose in the Forsworn Rebellions during the Markarth incident, brutally putting down the rebelling locals who sought to reclaim what they saw as their own lands, executing and enslaving many while driving the rest to eke out an existence in the wild.

Well, you should know that I'm a die-hard Imperial. Of the 6 full playthroughs I've done not once have I sided with Ulfric. But still, I wouldn't go this far. The similarities between Ulfric and the Reachmen end after wanting their ancestral homeland independent and wanting to worship their own gods.

Being a hypocrite means believing in one thins while performing the opposite. The person who added it is under the assumption that Ulfric's belief is "every people should have their own homeland." No, his belief is "Skyrim belongs to the Nords," and he considers the Reach as part of Skyrim, regardless of whoever owned it millenia ago. The Forsowrn uprising was a very ugly event, and one of the things the Forsword did (and still want to do) was the attempted genocide of all Nords. Even if Ulfric on some level sympathized with the Forsworns' desires, the fact that they're endorsing the complete genocide of Skyrim's citizens is reason enough to act.

tl;dr Independence for everyone was never his belief, so he can't betray that idea, so he's not a hypocrite.

MadCat221

09:42:21 AM Oct 18th 2013edited by 99.153.193.108

He's a hypocrite for believing "Skyrim Belongs To The Nords", and then turning around and enabling the same kind of oppression upon the Reachmen that he accuses the Empire of doing: rule by uncaring (at best) foreigners. As I said in the edit comments, "It's okay when Stormcloaks do it".

He arguably makes it even worse by giving de jure authority to the very family doing the worst oppression of the Reachmen when the Stormcloaks take the town.

ChaoticQueen

10:23:06 AM Oct 18th 2013

I think this would be a better fit for Protagonist-Centered Morality. Ultimately, Ulfric's morals and their questionability all depends on which side of the fence you're on. In the end, however, there is a major difference. Ulfric wants to drive out the Empire because he thinks they're too weak to rule, yet brands the Stormcloaks as criminals for wanting to rule themselves. The Stormcloaks genuinely want to make Skyrim a better place. The Forsworn, however, practice dark magic with hagravens and will attack anyone who isn't one of them.

For the record, yes I am a Stormcloak, but I do see the difference between a liberation and an Ax-Crazy cult.

Poptard

02:36:06 PM Oct 18th 2013

I agree with the Queen here, though I wouldn't go so far as to say Protagonist-Centered Morality. That trope is when the narrative casts the protagonist as virtuous despite his adversaries being objectively more sympathetic and justified in their actions. Whatever shade of gray you think Ulfric is, the Forsworn are definitely pitch-black. They may want their independence, but that's where the sympathy ends. They practice dark magic, murder non-Forsworn and skin them to make their clothes, and act more like a band of marauders than anything approaching a political movement.

However, Ulfric does not deserve to be called a hypocrite. As Chaotic Queen and I pointed out, the Stormcloaks have very valid reasons to oppose the Forsworn despite their belief in national independence. Just because I'm against total government control doesn't make me hypocritical when I oppose an anarchist trying to explode a government building, who at least considers himself stopping government oppression.

To respond directly to your comments, Mad Cat, despite my Imperial favoritism, it is okay when the Stormcloaks fight back. They keep it civil when The Forsworn don't. The Stormcloaks didn't mark their rebellion with trying to murder every Imperial they could get their hands on, attack any traveler who comes to close to their camp, or turn their kills into their next set of underwear. And while the Silver-blood family definitely aren't nice people, they are staunch, influential Stormcloak allies, so it's natural Ulfric would give them Jarlship (The Empire did the same thing with the extremely corrupt Black-Briar family).

Seriously. You don't like Ulfric. Neither do I. But you shouldn't make up false insults against the shortsighted, traitorous weasel when you can use truthful ones instead.

Ghilz

07:04:23 PM Oct 18th 2013

I can get behind the reasoning above

MadCat221

10:30:15 PM Oct 20th 2013edited by 99.153.193.108

The Forsworn are not the only people who Ulfric enabled the oppression of in the Reach. There are more than just the Forsworn, there's all the Reachmen. It's just like saying "Them Al Quaedas" when referring to arabic ethnicity as a whole. Is Ainethatch skinning nords and wearing the skins? Is Bothela transforming into a Hagraven? Is Cedran roving about raiding and pillaging?

Empire treads upon Talos worship to save its own skin when held at swordpoint: Bad.
Ulfric treads upon Reachmen to spit upon of the WGC: Good.

ChaoticQueen

11:00:16 PM Oct 20th 2013

The major problem with calling Ulfric a hypocrite is that it's blatant Imperial favoritism. The whole point of the Civil War plot is both sides are morally grey. As I've admitted before, I am indeed a Stormcloak. However, that does not mean I think Ulfric is the epitome of goodness, nor does it mean that I think Tullius deserves to have his head on a pike. I do try to keep an unbiased opinion in all this.

I think that this trope and It's All About Me are just attempts to demonize Ulfric. And the It's All About Me trope doesn't really have concrete evidence. It was added because a few in-game characters accuse him of it. However, quite a few people in-game also accuse Tullius of being a Starscream, but you don't see that under Tullius' page. Even the Sore Loser section for Elisif is a Justifying Edit.

All I'm asking is to put an end to the bias accusations which heavily rely on specualtion.

NOT related to edit warring. If there is a member of the Thalmor who features in one of the DLC packs, in this case Dragonborn, where should their potential entry be put in? I've expanded the Thalmor section a bit, but am unsure as to which it should go in.

Ghilz

04:04:05 AM Oct 14th 2013

I don't think there's any DLC Thalmor, but if there was, they'd go in the DLC pages. The same way the DLC Dragon from Dawnguard is in the DLC page and not listed with the main dragons.

Dawnwing

08:06:21 AM Oct 14th 2013

There is one - he's trying to get Stalhrim weapons and kidnaps the Skaal blacksmith. Yeah, he'd go on the DLC page.

People are trying really hard to fit "Ulfric won't attack when the Emperor is in Solitude''. Thing is, all three tropes its been put under so far are misuse:

Know When to Fold 'Em: Not an example. Ulfric is just going to wait to attack. He's not giving up, not realizing that he's got no chance. He's just waiting for a convenient time.

Pragmatic Villainy: As the troper would put it up in himself explained the problem with this: "a player is that far down the Stormcloak campaign, they likely wouldn't consider them a villain". So he's not an example of Pragmatic Villainy.

Hmm. Do you think we could maybe make a "Pragmatic Warfare" YKTTW, kinda like the link Poptard put, with this as one of the examples?

Poptard

08:58:46 AM Apr 22nd 2013

I was the editor who changed it to Pragmatic Villainy, and I think that trope fits the closest. He's refraining from gaining a complete victory over the Empire, by eliminating both the heads of Skyrim and the greater Empire in one swoop, because he's reluctant to turn Skyrim's war for it's independence to a complete war of 5 holds vs the entire Empire. Ulfric is a villain, at least for Imperial-aligned characters.

Dawnwing

09:00:21 AM Apr 22nd 2013edited by 216.99.32.45

@fox: That could be an option.

With what we have now, perhaps Genre Savvy? Not sure how accurate that would be, since as pointed out it's hard to fit, but that's my best guess.

@Poptard: That is true, and that was my first thought. But then you have to consider that the only way to get to that point is to decide that Ulfric is the good guy. So, depending on which side you choose, either it doesn't happen, or he's not a villain.

Poptard

09:08:15 AM Apr 22nd 2013

Genre Savvy seems like the best bet, since pragmatism can fit into that category.

"A Genre Savvy character doesn't necessarily know they're in a story, but they do know of stories like their own and what worked in them and what didn't" That's Genre Savvy. And this wouldn't be an example. Ulfric is not holding back because "Rebel leaders always make that fatal mistake" or something. He's just doing it out of pragmatism.

Poptard

05:03:50 AM Apr 23rd 2013

Perhaps, maybe, something completely out of left field. What about trying to InvokeThe Revolution Will Not Be Villified by willingly trying not to antagonize the Empire too much, as he wants to appear as a hero freeing Skyrim from a corrupt Empire rather than someone out to destroy the Empire. If he appears as the underdog, there wouldn't be enough public support in the Empire to justify an invasion to re-take Skyrim, but if he murdered the King of the whole Empire instead of just some king in a backwater province, he'd need to wrestle with an angry Empire.

CobraPrime

05:33:28 AM Apr 23rd 2013edited by 216.99.32.44

... That is not what The Revolution Will Not Be Villified is. The Revolution Will Not Be Villified is that in a work a rebellion is always presented as 100% heroic. They don't do massacres. They don't do underhanded tactics. They are squeaky clean. The Stormcloaks aren't an example as the game deliberately lets you choose how you see them and gives you mixed accounts. And the Empire is already hostile to them, and already accuses them of atrocities. Even as an attempt to Invoke the trope it doesn't work, since Ulfric knows and acknowledges his rebellion is vilified by the Empire.

At this point watching the list of Square Peg, Round Trope attempts to fit this as an example of something is getting sort of desperate.

foxmccloud4387

09:12:30 AM Apr 23rd 2013

So we make a Square Trope. I'll see if I can start a Pragmatic Warfare YKTTW.

Where is it indicated that the Empire wants to make Elisif a puppet queen? Yes she's quite powerless in the game, but she's young, inexperienced, and in times of war it makes sense Tulius would call the shots first. Otherwise I'm unsure of how this is true of the Empire.

Dawnwing

09:56:12 PM Dec 11th 2012edited by Dawnwing

From what I can find, it appears that the chef in the Blue palace says something like, "Everyone knows Tullius holds the real power in Solitude, Elisif is just a puppet".

MadCat221

10:52:17 PM Dec 11th 2012edited by MadCat221

Yeah, I'm remembering some insinuations from Erikur about it too... about how he has "every confidence in General Tullius".

In any case... Drake, THANK you for cleaning up all the pro-Stormcloak natter/rationalizations/justifying edits.

DrakeClawfang

10:56:43 PM Dec 11th 2012

No problem. I'm pro-Imperial too, and while I'm trying hard (and IMO am succeeding) in keeping my bias out of the editing window, the Stormcloaks had way too much natter going on to explain away how justified they are in their stances.

Where exactly are people seeing that Tullius has a Talos amulet? Specifics, please. I've looked in his inventory in the CK and he doesn't have one. Haven't looked through quest aliases or through any of the nightstands/closets/etc in Castle Dour yet.

MadCat221

09:10:22 PM Dec 11th 2012edited by MadCat221

Okay, I think I found it... the foot locker at his bed in Castle Dour? It can *potentially* spit out a randomized Talos amulet because a nested leveled item list structure contains the all-encompassing religious amulet list. Emphasis on "potentially". Part of leveled item lists' purpose is to randomize loot (as well as putting out level-appropriate gear and also providing a one-stop item-drop into actors to fill out their inventory when developing).

With the establishment that it can appear completely randomly, can all this statement that he's a closet Talos worshipper really be considered true? Are there any places associated with ownership by General Tullius personally that can reliably indicate this? Not trying to heap onto the anti-Imperial sentiment running rampant on this page (I'm pretty pro-Imperial), but facts are facts...

Seriously, all this pro-Stormcloak and anti-Empire propoganda needs to stop.

KingZeal

12:38:52 PM Sep 26th 2012

Such as?

Poptard

02:13:22 PM Sep 26th 2012

It's inevitable this will happen, seeing as the game divides the two sides (and the players) which each taking a poor view of the other. Some troper might be biased to one side, the others to the opposite. the best we can do is try to remain as neutral as possible.
If there's one entry that is blatantly pro-imperial or pro-stormcloak, post it here and we'll review it, and possibly clean it up.

ssfsx17

05:58:38 AM Nov 6th 2012

Sometimes the whole page comes across as a proxy for real-life... uhh... well, real-life trouble, is all I thnk can be said on a trope's discussion page. I looked at the message boRds for, let us say, certain real-life organizations and they use the exact same rhetoric.

Poptard

11:26:02 AM Nov 6th 2012

Unless if you find specific examples, there's not much that can be done. Also, those parties aren't the only ones who can use rhetoric; demonizing your opponents and their stance while exaggerating your own position and underplaying your faults are used by all people who are involved in politics. If I'm correct in assuming you're talking abut political boards, remember that the argument for Skyrim's independence is just as much political as it is cultural, so it's inevitable some of the same rhetoric would slip its way in.

The section on Ulfric seems a little unbalanced. For every potential negative trope, there's a rebuttal, often in the same paragraph. For example, under With Us Or Against Us, it says "Some believe he has this attitude. Most of the people who do tend to be Imperial loyalists also." The description goes on to quote an instance that undermines the trope. Then under Reluctant Ruler, there's this opinion included as part of the trope description: "Considering that the last king was considered a rambling fool by his own hold, one can agree."

Poptard

08:05:45 AM Sep 13th 2012

Your'e kind of right, there is a lot of bias, pro-Stormcloak in one paragraph and pro-Legion in the next, or vice versa. Perhaps some editing is needed.

MrParadox

07:07:26 PM Sep 14th 2012edited by MrParadox

Honestly this goes for the entire civil war article. There are a lot of positive trope for one person and then there is a negative trope for that same person. The only way this can even be a neutral section is if a. Someone who is neutral to the civil war does it or b. Bethseda releases a DLC that can somehow cause the civil war to become moot. One thing for sure is that there needs to be a clean-up on this page.

CrimsonZephyr

01:04:08 AM Dec 4th 2012

The "rambling fool" comment is a huge exaggeration. Only the shopkeeper in Bits and Pieces says that. Almost everyone else speaks highly of Torygg, or remembers him well.

The problem is that every week, a pack of pro-Stormcloak editors slip in justifying edits within blocks of text to contradict previous statements within that paragraph. The result is schizophrenic.

Most of the time, I've been trying to make the gigantic lists of justifying edits and contradictory sub-comments into more compact and neutral passages. It's a never ending task because every cleanup brings in another wave of Stormcloak whitewashing. Imperial whitewashing seems less prominent, if still present.

foxmccloud4387

06:52:40 PM Dec 19th 2012

If the history logs are anything to go by, it's mostly one guy doing all the Stormcloak whitewashing. Someone should send a mod to politely ask him to stop.

I like to make a comment to see if this is ok before I edit it. It appears that Korir has Reasonable Authority Figure as a trope. I like to remove this seeing as how Reasonable Authority Figure should be more than just doing your job and in fact, some of the things he is doing could be argued against being resonable.

Reasonable Authority Figure: His disdain for the college aside, Korir does his best to protect what little remains of his hold; and is constantly shown to be working to recovering some small modicum of its former prominence and power.

Poptard

08:10:13 PM Sep 9th 2012

I agree, though it's less of him not fitting the personality than it is he has few opportunities to perform much actions to qualify him. All he does is ask the Dragonborn to retrieve a helmet, thank him when he does so, and maybe make him a thane later. He also laments how Winterhold is pretty crappy and blames the college. That's good and also being aware of what's going on, but not enough for this trope.

MrParadox

09:14:57 AM Sep 10th 2012

Very well, also going to clean up the rest of the Jarl section, removing any more Reasonable Authority Figure entries unless they either help the Dragonborn directly (The Jarls of Hjallmarch) or they had the right reaction over something extraordinary (Elisf).

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