I hope you realize that the number of players out looking to gank a wagon will far outnumber the players willing to protect a wagon.

You're effectively limiting any serious harvesting to large guilds.

Yes, I think serious harvesting will be done by large groups. But there will always be solo prospectors looking for a wildcat strike.

Getting a wagonload of resources out of the wilderness and back to a civilized area will be a challenge. It would be useful therefore to think about becoming an effective teamster able to drive fast, move quietly, detect threats, and use cover and camouflage to hide.

Or hire someone who is.

There is one more reason why we shouldn't be too concerned about banditry. Where there is a demand there will be those that satisfy that demand.

There will always be caravan guards but bounty hunting sounds way cooler so there should be plenty of players specialising in tracking down bandit gangs.

Sure, you may have "mooks" haul buckets of coal into the forge, shovel the coal into the fire, and pump the bellows. But I seriously doubt you'll get through the whole process without the hammer ringing in your hands while the sweat of your brow drips.

I certainly hope you're right, because it sounds from the blog like I'll be playing a glorified gopher.

Goblinworks blog wrote:

From time to time during the crafting job, you'll be informed that your assistance is needed, usually in the form of acquiring and supplying unanticipated components—which may be available only in distant locations or may be derived from the bodies of various esoteric beasts or rarely visited locales!

What would be better, albeit more complex to implement, would be to craft items yourself, and as you gain in skill (and thus reputation), you have the opportunity to take on NPC apprentices, and develop your smithy/enchantment studio/whatever into an organisation as described in the blog, rather than immediately outsourcing everything to NPCs.

Because really, if the sum total of my involvement in making a Ring of Protection is going out and collecting a dire badger spleen, why should I even need to train an enchanting skill instead of tracking/hunting?

From time to time during the crafting job, you'll be informed that your assistance is needed, usually in the form of acquiring and supplying unanticipated components—which may be available only in distant locations or may be derived from the bodies of various esoteric beasts or rarely visited locales!

Very next sentence from the blog...

Quote:

There may be more active engagement with the crafting job as well; we envision many sorts of "mini-games" that crafters will participate in to ensure their jobs are completed.

I can see harvesting and processing being this way but crafting like not so much.

I could go for crafting at my skill lvl myself and having apprentices that craft low lvl stuff that I mastered long ago, thus my shop would grow from a 1 man shop to a busy 12 man shop where tools are made by my workers but the masterwork arms and armor are actually made by me maybe with a worker running the bellows.

I like the SWG path for crafting, you experiment and create the best item you possibly can, and when you get an outcome you like, you make a schematic, and send it to a factory for mass production, and that schematic would be good for so many uses until you have to make a new one.

I really don't like crafting systems where you have to craft 100 of an item to get the good version. You should be able to define a exceptional process once and get 100 out of it.
**numbers subject to developer balancing changes.

It does look good. I just wonder how easy it is to steal products as to how much time I have to try and stop them before they can take off with it. Mini-games, I see myself hoping these come up often to draw myself into the crafting process more, or answering a problem an npc brings up.

I like experimenting and creating a new product, like how we think up wondrous or other magical items to use in a game; then being the one to discover it I can choose to sell the recipe or not. Something down the road when you've become a master at crafting to be able to explore this area of crafting.

Like said before if you make a better version of an item, you should be able to keep making that one till your skills dictate that you can make it even better. Through modding or just creating the item itself, your skill shows in the product. Though I can see a low skill just by luck making a better version and not being able to create it again at that time.

Sounds nice to be able to hire npc's or pc's to help in your crafting; unless those pc's take your hard work, kill you and sell it themselves.
Micro-management of keeping workers happy while trying to get the job done. Caravans of trade product being harassed by monsters or bandits... OOOHHH the fun.

As long as i can get my clerical skills worked on while I craft; everything will be a-okay.

Please don't create a system where the output from crafting has random variation.

If I set out to make something, I want to make what I'm making, not one of several possibilities selected at random (X of the Bear, X of the Bat, X of the Billy Goat, etc.)

And I want to make a consistent product, especially if it's something I'm going to stack in my inventory.

I'd agree except when it comes to experimentation, if there will be such a system. I believe there should be some variation there, with many of the variable controllable (and mostly dependent on resource quality and skill). Once you create a pattern, schematic or recipe you're satisfied with (or is at the limit of your skill), there should be no variation once it hits the factory floor. I'd also support not having "X of the Bear" style finished product.

Well, there go my plans for being a legendary swordsmith (in the style of Kill Bill's Hanzo Hattori). I don't even get to say "this sword is made with the sweat of my brow. I tore the ore from the earth with these hands, drew forth the iron from the ore with these hands, and fashioned the blade with these hands. This is my sword." Instead, I say "I had some mooks mine, smelt and forge this sword for me. Yay."

You've got two things going here: the game's representation of crafting, and division of labor

1) The first one may not be such a big deal if you think through your frame. You're obviously expecting a representation of crafting as a direct, solo process: some kind of animation of your toon banging away at a forge. Instead, it looks like we'll see crafting represented as your toon running around a shop making everything run right. Regardless of the animation you see on screen though, your character choices drive crafting. You're deciding how to allocate skill training, your pursuit of merit badges, what output to have, etc. At the end of the day, regardless of the on-screen animation, you'll be responsible for turning ingots of steel into a masterwork rapier--it will still be a Kalzo Kattori blade.

2) The second issue does seem to be at odds with what you want out of game play: this design moves PCs to specialization instead of PCs as jacks-of-all-trades. You'll have to chose between being a prospector, a founder, or a smith. You certainly have every right to prefer having duplication of labor, but I sure don't want that. I'd much rather be a totally badasstic ranger who manages to find an incredibly rare vein of mithril way the heck off in the boonies, than be one of a zillion schlubs who can all harvest, refine, craft, the whole way through. If we did what you'd like and removed division of labor, do you see how we'd all be mooks in a sense?

Well, there go my plans for being a legendary swordsmith (in the style of Kill Bill's Hanzo Hattori). I don't even get to say "this sword is made with the sweat of my brow. I tore the ore from the earth with these hands, drew forth the iron from the ore with these hands, and fashioned the blade with these hands. This is my sword." Instead, I say "I had some mooks mine, smelt and forge this sword for me. Yay."

You've got two things going here: the game's representation of crafting, and division of labor

1) The first one may not be such a big deal if you think through your frame. You're obviously expecting a representation of crafting as a direct, solo process: some kind of animation of your toon banging away at a forge. Instead, it looks like we'll see crafting represented as your toon running around a shop making everything run right. Regardless of the animation you see on screen though, your character choices drive crafting. You're deciding how to allocate skill training, your pursuit of merit badges, what output to have, etc. At the end of the day, regardless of the on-screen animation, you'll be responsible for turning ingots of steel into a masterwork rapier--it will still be a Kalzo Kattori blade.

2) The second issue does seem to be at odds with what you want out of game play: this design moves PCs to specialization instead of PCs as jacks-of-all-trades. You'll have to chose between being a prospector, a founder, or a smith. You certainly have every right to prefer having duplication of labor, but I sure don't want that. I'd much rather be a totally badasstic ranger who manages to find an incredibly rare vein of mithril way the heck off in the boonies, than be one of a zillion schlubs who can all harvest, refine, craft, the whole way through. If we did what you'd like and removed division of labor, do you see how we'd all be mooks in a sense?

I kind of doubt there will be an "animation" aspect to it. Sounds more like the production facilities in Eve with mini-games added on. I expect an interface but not actually seeing the commoners doing the work. Although watching Sim-like commoners run around, grumble, slack, and sort of do the task would be massively entertaining, I expect those animators and programmers will be more concerned with making a believable band of goblins.

Setting things up the way they plan is clever for multiple reasons. It frees the art staff to spend more time on other things, it reduces the burden on the engine because you don't actually watch tree's being cut down or ore breaking off a wall, it's happening fictionally in the background. Instead of having potentially dozens of 3D art animations tied to various aspects of crafting, you have some quick hit hopefully addictive flash-like mini-games, and more time for polish in other areas.

One thing I think would be really neat would be to find novel ways to process standard materials to create intermediate components that are fit for much higher-end final crafting processes.

I'm thinking about how Materials Science today finds novel uses for base materials - such as how copper wires formed the very heart of our telephone and telegraph system for many decades, and how pencil lead (graphite) can be processed into Graphene and carbon nanotubes.

I would hope that Processors in-game will be able to research new processes that would allow them to use low-value raw materials as the base for high-value outputs. Note, I am not asking that they be able to do this cheaply; GW should ensure the proper profit margins are maintained by requiring appropriate high-value materials as well.

I would hope that Processors in-game will be able to research new processes that would allow them to use low-value raw materials as the base for high-value outputs.

agree, with some restrictions.

*Refining low purity iron to high purity iron or steel: yes (mainly requires firewood or coal)
*Alloying high purity iron into surgical grade steel: yes (requires small amount of rare metals or alchemy supplies).
*sort through 10 barrels of average apples to end up with 1 barrel of good apples: probably yes
*making one long straight pole from ten short crooked ones, or making one flawless fur from ten flawed ones: never ever!

EDIT: isn't that the whole point of Processers: turning low-value materials into high-value materials?
What you are asking for is just that some high-value materials should be reachable through different routes. (Again I agree, with some restrictions).

I'd much rather be a totally badasstic ranger who manages to find an incredibly rare vein of mithril way the heck off in the boonies, than bee of a zillion schlubs who can all harvest, refine, craft, the whole way through.

While I'm willing to accept that I might not be able to handle the entire process from start to finish myself, would you rather be a badasstic ranger, or someone who sends out a badasstic ranger NPC and occasionally runs "quests" to fix her boots? This is my main problem with crafting.

I'd much rather be a totally badasstic ranger who manages to find an incredibly rare vein of mithril way the heck off in the boonies, than bee of a zillion schlubs who can all harvest, refine, craft, the whole way through.

While I'm willing to accept that I might not be able to handle the entire process from start to finish myself, would you rather be a badasstic ranger, or someone who sends out a badasstic ranger NPC and occasionally runs "quests" to fix her boots? This is my main problem with crafting.

I can understand where you're coming from. Modern life doesn't offer the opportunity to satisfy the desire to create for a living in most cases. Division of labor and economies of scale severely limit the ability to be successful hand-crafting anything. There is a satisfaction in saying, "I made that sword, that was just used to slay the dragon".

This implementation lacks that quality. I doubt the plant manager at Ford motors has personal pride when he see's a Ford car go down the road, and I doubt you'll have any when you see one of "your" creations in the world.

Fulfilling that desire to create is one of the reasons I enjoy writing software for a living.

I think you're being unduly pessimistic. I didn't read anything to make me feel like my crafting a sword is going to be a hands-off, managerial experience.

Yes, the common folk will have an impact on how effective I can be - maybe they're weak and hungry and can't come in to shovel coal into my forge - but I expect I'm still going to be the master craftsman folding the steel and tempering the blade perfectly to ensure it holds an edge.

I'd much rather be a totally badasstic ranger who manages to find an incredibly rare vein of mithril way the heck off in the boonies, than bee of a zillion schlubs who can all harvest, refine, craft, the whole way through.

While I'm willing to accept that I might not be able to handle the entire process from start to finish myself, would you rather be a badasstic ranger, or someone who sends out a badasstic ranger NPC and occasionally runs "quests" to fix her boots? This is my main problem with crafting.

I can understand where you're coming from. Modern life doesn't offer the opportunity to satisfy the desire to create for a living in most cases. Division of labor and economies of scale severely limit the ability to be successful hand-crafting anything. There is a satisfaction in saying, "I made that sword, that was just used to slay the dragon".

This implementation lacks that quality. I doubt the plant manager at Ford motors has personal pride when he see's a Ford car go down the road, and I doubt you'll have any when you see one of "your" creations in the world.

Fulfilling that desire to create is one of the reasons I enjoy writing software for a living.

I think the pride in this scenario comes from your succesful discovery/research of a unique type of weapon, leading to a queue round the block of players clamouring for your work.

I think you're being unduly pessimistic. I didn't read anything to make me feel like my crafting a sword is going to be a hands-off, managerial experience.

Yes, the common folk will have an impact on how effective I can be - maybe they're weak and hungry and can't come in to shovel coal into my forge - but I expect I'm still going to be the master craftsman folding the steel and tempering the blade perfectly to ensure it holds an edge.

Goblinworks Blog wrote:

The crafter needs to purchase a wide variety of intermediate components produced by processors. Each type of good you wish to make will require a variety of components. The more complex the final product, the more complex the ingredients of the job. Substituting lower-quality components may work, but the result will be less valuable than the average example of that type of good. Likewise, finding ways to use higher-quality components may lead a crafter to producing exceptional work that will carry a price premium.

Once the necessary materials are assembled, you'll engage the services of a workshop to complete the job. These workshops are buildings found in settlements, and they are staffed by common folk. Unlike processors, who may be able to operate many jobs in many locations, crafters will need to be present and engaged with the task of production to ensure that it is successful. From time to time during the crafting job, you'll be informed that your assistance is needed, usually in the form of acquiring and supplying unanticipated components—which may be available only in distant locations or may be derived from the bodies of various esoteric beasts or rarely visited locales! There may be more active engagement with the crafting job as well; we envision many sorts of "mini-games" that crafters will participate in to ensure their jobs are completed.

Perhaps some of those mini-games may encompass that aspect (show em how it's done properly). We can't know at this point. However, I think it will be mostly similar to crafting a ship in Eve. eg. Acquire materials, buy production slot in facility, wait for completion. The addition to this existent formula being mini-games and/or "logjams".

Maybe I simple missed it, but I don't see any discussion about quality vs quantity. The entire process given in the blog entry seems to emphasize quantity only, but I could be mistaken.

While I like the ideas of camps of NPCs harvesting resources, another group refining them, and then crafter NPCs assembling them, with the players interacting in the process; the entire system seems to cater to mass producing items. There should be, and arguably needs to be, an alternate route; an option where the player takes more responsibility in the process of harvesting, crafting and/or manufacturing.

The simplest way to do this would be to implement a time = quality for all aspects of the crafting process. Want higher quality iron? You need to spend more time directly managing the process(es) of mining the ore and refining it into iron (or steel for that matter). The pinnacle of time spent would be to simply do the entire process yourself, no NPCs at all. Such a player would be an example of a dedicated artisan, and I imagine, a rarity as long as the ratio of time/quality is done properly.

The concept would apply to all parts of the economy too, allowing for a diversity in product qualities. Higher quality in each process, and thus more time spent by the player, could mean different things for the final product. For instance when crafting swords:

More time spent harvesting (ore) would translate into a more durable weapon (Making who supplies the raw materials important)

More time spent refining (bars) would translate into a lighter weight weapon (Making who supplies the refined materials important)

More time spent manufacturing (constructing sword) would translate into a sharper blade (Making who crafts the item important)

Spending less time would have the inverse effect. The end result is the player choosing how they want to be part of the economy; do you want to mass produce low quality items, offering low cost solutions, or would you rather take day(s) to make a single item at a high cost but of an exceptional (noteworthy) quality. Making it possible to be a Hattori Hanzo, a Sword-Mart or anything in between.

Actually, if Nihimon is correct in this, and I just have a bunch of NPCs scurrying around my smithy/enchanting studio/whatever running errands while I do the actual smithing/enchanting/whatever, I'll be quite happy about that. There's no harm in accepting help, after all. I mean, it's nice that there will be a working economy and all, but some people take crafting skills for the satisfaction of creating things, not just making money.

But so far, all we've got is "you'll be needed occasionally, usually to run some errand", and "there MAY be some other mini-games involved". In a game like EVE, where a human just can't etch those microchips by hand, hands-off crafting makes more sense. But when the fabrication process involves a (demi)human being picking up a hammer and hitting a piece of metal, I see no reason why my character should not be able to do that herself with the right training.

I would hope that Processors in-game will be able to research new processes that would allow them to use low-value raw materials as the base for high-value outputs.

What you are asking for is just that some high-value materials should be reachable through different routes.

Actually, that's not really what I'm asking for. I'll try to come back later with an illustrative example.

Ok, here goes my hypothetical:

Copper Ore can be mined in low-risk areas, and sells for around 10 coins per pound.

Copper Ingots are processed from Copper Ore, and extra ingredients costing about 5 coins per pound of Copper Ore being processed. One pound of Copper Ore results in 12 ounces (3/4 pound) of Copper Ingots, which sell for about 3 coins per ounce.

Platinum Ore can only be mined in very high-risk areas, and sells for around 1,000 coins per pound.

Platinum Ingots are processed from Platinum Ore, and extra ingredients costing around 50 coins per pound of Platinum Ore being processed. One pound of Platinum Ore results in 12 ounces of Platinum Ingots, which sell for about 150 coins per ounce.

Normally, only Platinum Ingots can be used to create high-end magical items.

I'd like there to be a Processing method that can take Copper Ingots and further process them using ingredients that cost 200 coins per ounce of Copper Ingots processed, and make a special form of Copper that is suitable for use in high-end magic items. Not necessarily as the main base item, but as an additional ingredient to be used alongside Platinum Ingots.

I think a better option would be to allow alloys of various metals to be used in most items, with each alloy having benefits and drawbacks; expense and difficulty working can count as drawbacks, making exotic alloys more effective in use.

For instance, Monel is a (trademarked) alloy of mostly nickel, with copper secondary and other elements trace. Compared to steel, Monel is very difficult to machine as it work-hardens very quickly. It needs to be turned and worked at slow speeds and low feed rates. It is resistant to corrosion and acids, and some alloys can withstand a fire in pure oxygen. Monel is typically much more expensive than stainless steel. (Wikipedia)

Steel alloys are mostly iron, typically with other elements in small proportions; mithril and other fantasy alloys can be made either of fantasy metals, and/or alloyed from precious metals like platinum and silver, and/or require significant research to produce and work.

@Nihimon, in the Mage: The Awakening RPG there exist things called "Perfected Metals" which are created by further refining mundane metals through sorcery. They can then be used to make alloys that have particular magical effects.

A well crafted steel blade is one thing, but if you instead use perfected iron and other high quality ingredients, something far greater is created.

Is that what you were going for? Gatherers would still be acquiring basic materials, but processors could put those raw materials through multiple stages of refinement, sometimes combining raw materials during processing, with the end result being a much more advanced object for crafters to use.

Which would create an interesting dilemma, does the processor choose to do the minimal amount of refining in order to get the highest volume of goods, or do they invest more time and resources to sell the highest quality goods at a price premium?

After mastering Crafting and hitting a certain point, I think an apprentice would be nice thing to obtain. He'd help pick up some of my slack but only hit skill levels (matching mine) of let's say someone who is 10 levels below me.

Have him/her do a couple simple when I'm not online, or send them off to gather materials.

After mastering Crafting and hitting a certain point, I think an apprentice would be nice thing to obtain. He'd help pick up some of my slack but only hit skill levels (matching mine) of let's say someone who is 10 levels below me.

Have him/her do a couple simple when I'm not online, or send them off to gather materials.

Here we go with another idea of mine... Goblinworks should take this as a complement, I don't run around coming up with ideas for how to improve WoW even though there are A LOT of ways it could be. I only pump out ideas like a factory for games I'm excited about. Anyway...

Having an NPC apprentice might make the whole crafting while offline thing too easy. I think the way that should go is while your structures do continue to function offline at a much slower rate, the only thing that the difference between you being there and not being there needs to make a drastic enough difference that it would be economically viable for someone of your stats.

An apprentice who does any significant amount of work for you could endanger this, UNLESS it is a player apprentice. Player interaction is the turbo booster that makes all things economically viable.

A player apprentice could be a good deal though. You would make it so player apprentices receive buffs to their skills while working in buildings owned by you or fighting alongside you in battle to help keep them more on a par with you. You might give off an aura called "Watchful eye of the master" that gives the battle buffs whenever you aren't marked AFK.

Then you could even implement things like if they spend X hours under "Watchful eye of the Master" per week they get a 5% bonus to skill training speed and 10% bonus to training skills that you have, until they reach the same amount of skillpoint (That is an EVE measurement but I'll substitute it here since it works for the idea.) you have.

Will a few people take apprentices then use macros to make it look they are together online? Yes.

Will people like that, or people who are legitimate apprentices have a drastic advantage over someone who is not? No.

Will it be an awesome system that allows friends of different skill levels to work together more, and promote social interaction? Yes.

It would be pretty cool because it would solve the problem of EVE that you can never catch up with your buddies. If you have a buddy who started a year before you, he is training at 100% and you are training at 110% or 105% you will eventually reach his level. It just won't hand it to you overnight. Likely if he has a three year lead on you, you will never be even, but it will be an ever narrowing gap unless he drops you as an apprentice so one or both of you can take a different apprentice.

Here we go with another idea of mine... Goblinworks should take this as a complement, I don't run around coming up with ideas for how to improve WoW even though there are A LOT of ways it could be. I only pump out ideas like a factory for games I'm excited about. Anyway...

Having an NPC apprentice might make the whole crafting while offline thing too easy. I think the way that should go is while your structures do continue to function offline at a much slower rate, the only thing that the difference between you being there and not being there needs to make a drastic enough difference that it would be economically viable for someone of your stats.

An apprentice who does any significant amount of work for you could endanger this, UNLESS it is a player apprentice. Player interaction is the turbo booster that makes all things economically viable.

A player apprentice could be a good deal though. You would make it so player apprentices receive buffs to their skills while working in buildings owned by you or fighting alongside you in battle to help keep them more on a par with you. You might give off an aura called "Watchful eye of the master" that gives the battle buffs whenever you aren't marked AFK.

Then you could even implement things like if they spend X hours under "Watchful eye of the Master" per week they get a 5% bonus to skill training speed and 10% bonus to training skills that you have, until they reach the same amount of skillpoint (That is an EVE measurement but I'll substitute it here since it works for the idea.) you have.

Will a few people take apprentices then use macros to make it look they are together online? Yes.

Will...

Crafters do have apprentices, just as Knights have squires how they keep the tradition of their skill going. Not sure if you're being sarcastic, being the internet it's hard to tell without facial recognition and eyes rolling upwards.

The npc would only do basic thing(s) just like in a facebook game of um... farmville where you set something for 6 hours come back and click on it to collect a reward or list of what they've done and didn't accomplish. Sure would say it takes longer since he's only an apprentice and assuming he's working alone with the others going away since I'm not around, and that the apprentice does have a scripted sleep habit.

Player apprentice would be the other way of doing it like stated above, be around a master crafter pick up some skills for themselves even learn a special ability that the crafter has and even work while the master's away. Not having the full stock that they would if the Master was around but enough to do some things, to save time for the next day.

Should still have some flaw being just an apprentice that they can fail in crafting and set you back in your progress.

Player apprentice would be the other way of doing it like stated above, be around a master crafter pick up some skills for themselves even learn a special ability that the crafter has and even work while the master's away. Not having the full stock that they would if the Master was around but enough to do some things, to save time for the next day.

Yeah that is the basic jist of my idea. If you took someone as your apprentice they would get buffs to make them more on your combat level if the two of you are online and out adventuring together, but even if you are offline they would get significant bonuses for working in any crafting structures you own. So your apprentice who just started the game can be working in your crafting stations with say 70% of the effect you could be, causing everything to go more smoothly. The limitation would be if they went off and made their own crafting station, or went off and worked in Bob's crafting station, then they wouldn't have that 70% benefit.

It makes more experienced players want to take apprentices because they increase productivity. It makes less experienced players want to be an apprentice because they get XP benefits and any decent master will give them a size-able cut of the extra earnings they make from having an apprentice in the shops.

The most awesome part is that crafters might actually seek out apprentices because of these benefits. The people most willing to be apprentices are going to be newbs fresh out of the starter area, who are going to have an un-ending line of questions for their more experienced master. Having questions answered is a big deal in a sandbox game where there is generally a lot of information to take in and the learning curve can be pretty steep.

Apprentices will have someone guide them along that learning curve, plus they will be making friends and getting plugged into social networks. This = higher enjoyment of game. Higher enjoyment of game = higher chance of staying with game. Higher chance of players staying with game = more sub money of Goblinworks, and more active players in PFO. More sub money for GW and more active players in PFO = Awesome for them, awesome for us.

I just re-read my hypothetical, and I did a pretty poor job of explaining myself.

I'm not asking for Copper to be useful in high-end metal alloys to be used like normal metal (although, that's certainly a good idea).

I was actually thinking more along the lines of Copper being useful (after very expensive processing) as an intermediate ingredient in high-end potions, for example.

Another example might be Daisies, which are abundant in high-security areas, but they can be processed (again, using very expensive ingredients) to make compounds that are useful in high-end Construction materials.

The point is not to make a low-end resource useful in the high-end items that normally require that resource type, but rather to make it useful in seemingly unrelated item types.

The idea being to maintain a certain demand for low-end items even in high-end crafting, but keep the demand low enough that the supply will always be more than sufficient, so that the price is not pushed up. And to create more options for processing goods, so that it's not just broken up into swim lanes so that Copper is only ever used for making metal end products.

... to create more options for processing goods, so that it's not just broken up into swim lanes so that Copper is only ever used for making metal end products.

I think what you're asking for is: as we go further up the harvesting, processing, and crafting paths, we should see more recipes that require items from other paths - not always high end items, but items from other paths.

So copper might be used in cheap jewelry, or made into brass for cookware, or made into bronze for casting bells. These are all metalworking sub-paths.

But copper salts might be used in alchemy; the metal's properties might be useful in making magical items that channel lightning; it might be used as copper nails or brass hinges in furniture.

@Urman, yes, that's part of what I'm asking for, but I'm also asking that there be on-going discovery in the game that leads to new ways that Copper can be Processed into something that is useful for a totally unexpected recipe.

It sounds like Crafting recipes will allow a wide range of quality for the ingredients that are used. I am asking that there be substitutions as well.

The thing I'm really after is a sense of on-going discovery. It doesn't even have to be modeled on real chemical properties as we understand them.

Alchemical and other craftings - such as jewelcrafting, gemcutting and metalsmithing - could gain greatly from implementing contagion / sympathy and its opposites as mentioned above.

Copper doesn't rust unless alloyed with iron or steel. It is well known as an electrical conductor although gold is a significantly better conductor. It symbolizes fire and the sun. Certain colors of gems are treated the same way. Red stones are associated with fire, yellow stones with healing, black stones with necromancy/death magic, blue stones with electricity and water and so on.

The 1e DMG is a gold mine of inforamtion along these lines. Palladium's RIFTS england book has a TON of material relating to effects derived from wood, herbs, flowers and roots.

The requirements to craft "old school" could be awesome if a crafter was able to incorporate sympathetically appropriate items into an items' construction before any enchantment was to take place.

An example mentioned above was a bronze sword. Let us take it on a walk...

High-grade copper and tin are alloyed to form the blade. During the forging of the blade the bladesmith sprinkles in powdered red garnet and crushed ghost chili peppers. The grip into which the tang of the blade is set is carved from the jawbone of a fire drake or an actual red dragon slain by his hand. The blade is press-hardened (a technique that ancient Egyptians used for their blades if memory serves) and impregnated with an ounce of diamond dust to faciliate the magic that reinforces the blade and ensures that its edges remain sharp. The guard is fashioned from the same alloy as the blade with (whatever stone guards against fire and another that guards against harm) - or has magnificently cut gems inset into the guard. The handle/grip is wrapped in hide from the aforementioned fire drake or dragon. The pommel is inset with a cabachon-cut red garnet or ruby. When all is said and done, the weapon holds strongly sympathetic "resonance" to fire magic. This would make an awesome flame tongue sword but a horrible frostblade. Depending on the enchantment mechanics, the material value of the sword may already meet the necessary costs to enchant it, even exceed it by a wide margin, resulting in a inferno blade instead of a "mere" flame blade.

High-quality craftsmanship like this could replace the standard 3e materials costs. Love it!

The thing I'm really after is a sense of on-going discovery. It doesn't even have to be modeled on real chemical properties as we understand them.

That's hard to do in a game, when discoveries are broadcast through the wiki almost as soon as they are discovered. The one game that I thought did discoveries well was A Tale in the Desert, but it resets every couple years.

This might be a parallel thought - in ATITD, there was a system of alchemy that produced dyes for paints. But there was a trick, of course, like most things in ATITD. The trick was that dye making was dependent in part on who was mixing the dye. So if I mixed sulphur and copper I might get a Red Green Blue shift of (+25,+0,-10), but if *you* mixed sulphur and copper you might get a RGB shift of (+10,-20,-10).

Apparently the game used hash tables (based on character name) for various processes. This allowed variance between characters while allowing consistency for a given character. Every character that wanted to learn dyes had to figure some of it out on his own. Some ingredients were rare enough that players tested their shift later in the game, and used them rarely due to expense.

So I guess I'm saying - on-going discovery can be done and there might be ways to have *some* discoveries not be easily transferable to the world at large. Having a system that could allow both following a recipe and experimentation could be very cool, and would be in keeping with a game based on magic and pre-Enlightenment thought.

That's hard to do in a game, when discoveries are broadcast through the wiki almost as soon as they are discovered.

Not so true. In Mortal Online discovery is a huge element of the game and it has actually resulted in many clans hoarding recipes for themselves to give themselves a technological edge. Go and try to find alchemy recipes in that game. Some people have them, but they aren't sharing

A system in which there are a lot of basic recipes available from the start but you have to learn new ones might not be a bad idea. Sure some people are going to come at it for the thrill of discovery and expanding knowledge to reveal what they have learned to the world. Others are going to hoard every last scrap of knowledge for themselves and use it to get an edge against their opponents.

Heh I remember when Asherons Call did this and how fast they were spilled to the internet.

I get so giddy when I think of stuff like that Andius the discovery, spending hours trying to find create something. Taking pride in your hard work to where you will only share it with close friends/guild mates or no one so you are that one unique crafter.

That's hard to do in a game, when discoveries are broadcast through the wiki almost as soon as they are discovered.

Not so true. In Mortal Online discovery is a huge element of the game and it has actually resulted in many clans hoarding recipes for themselves to give themselves a technological edge. Go and try to find alchemy recipes in that game. Some people have them, but they aren't sharing

A system in which there are a lot of basic recipes available from the start but you have to learn new ones might not be a bad idea. Sure some people are going to come at it for the thrill of discovery and expanding knowledge to reveal what they have learned to the world. Others are going to hoard every last scrap of knowledge for themselves and use it to get an edge against their opponents.

This is very true, in Saga of Ryzom there are so many materials and they can be combined in so many ways when making an item that people are still refining crafting recipes after being in game for 8 years. My wife is a master crafter and she has her personal stash of recipes that she has found or learned from other crafters...which she will not share. They are what gives her an edge over newer crafters. And she spends most of her time in game continuing to dig for mats and using them to research new combinations in her crafting (once again, this is after years...she still works toward and finds better combinations).

Most crafters have their stash, and while there is probably quite a bit of overlap, since different crafters have different friends and different needs, they have spent time developing different combinations of item stats.

Point being, people are welcome to share their recipes...but it is not profitable to do so, they won't. The key is making a system that has so many possibilities and give every material both benefits and drawbacks.

High-grade copper and tin are alloyed to form the blade. During the forging of the blade the bladesmith sprinkles in powdered red garnet and crushed ghost chili peppers. The grip into which the tang of the blade is set is carved from the jawbone of a fire drake or an actual red dragon slain by his hand. The blade is press-hardened (a technique that ancient Egyptians used for their blades if memory serves) and impregnated with an ounce of diamond dust to faciliate the magic that reinforces the blade and ensures that its edges remain sharp. The guard is fashioned from the same alloy as the blade with (whatever stone guards against fire and another that guards against harm) - or has magnificently cut gems inset into the guard. The handle/grip is wrapped in hide from the aforementioned fire drake or dragon. The pommel is inset with a cabachon-cut red garnet or ruby. When all is said and done, the weapon holds strongly sympathetic "resonance" to fire magic. This would make an awesome flame...

I LOVE sympathetic magic as a basis for magical item creation. It's been a big part of my DM style for years, and for my players, it links their encounters to magical items they might make. The stakes are more directly visible to my players when they are having to deal with an organically invisible creature, for example.

Riffing off it, I would say that each special material or ingrediant has both a positive and negative aspect to it (example, making something sharper but also more brittle). Thus part of the crafters game-play would be coming up with a combination of positive and negative qualties that had good synergy for the type of item that was being fashioned. Also each time a special ingrediant is added, there should be some sort of skill check against the crafter...that could end up resulting in a bothched product (and wasted materials).

So part of being a crafter for high-end items would involve making intelligent decisions to arrive at set of bonuses and negatives that fit well with the individual piece of equipments intended application. Having the means to gain access to the materials neccessary to achieve those qualities and then the personal (character) skill to combine that many ingrediants into an item without ruining it.

The other positive of such a system is that beyond a certain level...you don't end up with items that are significantly more powerfull, overall then each other...just more specialized for a given purpose.

For example:

You might have a +2 mitril sword that was your "stock" item for high end crafted gear.

Then you might have the same +2 mithril sword that had 2 ingrediants added that modified it's qualities..

- An ingrediant that added an additional point of damage against Lycantrhopes but at the cost of 1 less damage against natural animals

- An ingrediant that made the blade lighter (1 second quicker on attacks then a standard blade) but also more brittle (apt to break in combat).

Also in favor of sympathetic qualities, and as Grumpy described with tradeoffs. Not only does this allow for customizable experience, but also the sympathies (red=fire/aggression, blue=water/peacefulness, or whatever/however) should be fairly intuitive to learn.

I am not a fan of this blog at all. In short, if this is how harvesting and crafting will be, I have no interest in it.

My interest in this game is an ever narrowing window:

-I have no interest in PvP.

-I have no interest in death penalties. I have said this from the beginning. I thought I understood the reasoning for the penalty GW has planned, but in light of this latest blog, I see no need for it whatsoever. Whatever you have in your bag is of no consequence. What people will be raiding are the wagons. Your death and whatever you might be carrying is incedental to that. Any harm that might be inflicted by destroying your stuff is nothing compared to the loss of the wagon.

-I have no interest in a game economy that is trying to replicate the real world economy. The WoW auction house is enough virtual economy for me. It's simply too much like real life to be any fun.

-I have no interest in playing SIM Harvester/SIM Craft. I don't see the need for commoners. They seem like invisible window dressing that doesn't need to be there. Anything and everything they do could and ought to be done by players. If I'm mining ore, I want to swing the pick. I don't want to be the overseer. If I'm harvesting with friends and our camp gets attacked, harvesting will stop whether I'm doing the mining or the invisible plebes are doing it. If I'm making a sword, I want to swing the hammer. Farmville jokes aside, if food is needed in the game, there are people who would enjoy farming it. I don't want to be the capitalist, I want to be the artisan.

This leaves me with a hope for the best PvE experience I've ever seen. But with hints that PvP will require specialized skills, meaning my adventuring skills won't translate if I need to defend myself, that hope is dim.

Sorry to be such a downer but these last two blogs in particular have fallen really flat on me.

@Hudax I understand why you don't like those things, but so far it seems that's what the entire game will be based around. There won't be much in the way of pure PVE content that's not also mixed with PVP, crafting, or the economy. They're specifically moving away from the 'amusement park' model where you move from one predetermined area to another to make a game focused on players building the world.

I don't love the idea of the hardened, wealthy, adventurer needing to shuck scallops every time he wants chili, or farming while doing anything else that year, or mining being done in industrial quantities by a handful of people.

I've also made the observation that many MMOs work well as single player games with optional multiplayer- and that is exactly how they are played. I'll make the further observation *cough* Diablo 3 *cough* that single player games are moving toward the current MMO generation in those terms.