The reason as to to the regrowth glyph is the fact with the guaranteed crit you get a heal that is the same size as a non-crit healing touch + a living seed, most of the time when you want a large heal you also want it relatively quickly and from a numbers and ease of life I cannot see why you would use healing touch over regrowth.

Theoretically, glyphed Regrowth is about a 12% increase in average healing done over unglyphed Regrowth. But that's assuming no overhealing and 100% effectiveness on all Living Seed procs. And that also ignores the fact that the hot stays active on targets below 50% health (granted, that shouldn't happen very often, but still). You also lose the ability to Swiftmend Regrowth hots. Assuming a 50% effectiveness on Living Seeds, that's a 9% improvement over unglyphed Regrowth.

Considering the increase, I think you're right about it being a worthwhile consideration. But I'm also of the opinion that glyphed and unglyphed are close enough in value that personal preference and average Regrowth-usage are important factors in that decision.

Originally Posted by Migraine

Yeah that is better the only thing that I would consider is in red slots gemming solid int and picking up that lost spirit from reforging.

I can agree with this. The shoulders, legs, belt, boots, wrist and weapon should all have 100% int gems. (The shoulders, legs and wrist are either red or prismatic sockets so they definitely should be int; while the boots, belt and weapon have shoddy bonuses that aren't worth going for.) You might also consider changing your meta.

I was of the thinking that a glyphed regrowth including the seed was better hpm than a HT, I am aware that HT can crit but at current levels of crit it is ineffective to rely on this and averaged out over the fight crit HT included glyphed RG maintains a better hpm. I am happy to be wrong on this and I am sorry I am not supporting this with numbers.

I should be clear: I wasn't disputing that. You're right. Glyphed RG is better than HT for hpm. In many ways, Regrowth (glyphed or unglyphed) is better than HT. The only excuse to use HT is if you have it glyphed. But if the healing requirements on the tank aren't heavy, glyphed HT can be a good alternative to RG because of its synergy with Swiftmend. I wouldn't *recommend* someone glyph HT, but if their playstyle makes it a useful spell, I wouldn't disparage them for it either.

My arguments above weren't in favor of glyphed HT, they were just pointing out that glyphed RG isn't a requirement (in my opinion). But from a purely min-max perspective, your suggestion was correct. Also, I must thank you for this back and forth as it's forced me to analyze my perspective on these two glyphs.

Healing Touch (glyphed) increases the number of times Swiftmend can be cast by 1/15 it's normal interval, thereby increasing the healing of Swiftmend by 6.67% per HT cast. It also increases the mana cost of Swiftmend per second by 6.67% per cast (since it's being cast that much more often).
Swiftmend's normal healing done ~= 55200+6600*3*7 = 193800
Each cast of glyphed Healing Touch is worth 6.67% of the above ~= 12926
Each cast of glyphed Healing Touch increases the cost of SM by 6.67% per second as well ~= 5100*.0667 = 340 mana (so this can be thought of as an added cost to each glyphed HT cast)Healing Touch (glyphed) ~= [79600*(2*1.3*.17+.83) + 12926]/(17340+340) = 6.46 hpm

Comparisons:
In terms of HPM: glyphed HT > glyphed RG > HT (unglyphed) > RG (unglyphed)
The glyph of HT is weighed so heavily because of swiftmend, but it assumes optimal swiftmend/efflorescence usage. But regardless, the differences are very minor, overall. The difference between them is less than 0.8 hpm between the lowest and highest hpms of those four options. If HPM is a concern, these choices hardly make a difference.

[Edit] And of course, these all assume that Living Seed, when it procs, is used to full effect.

P.S. Hopefully I didn't make any errors in the calculations. D:

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 02:50 AM ----------

I realized I didn't take 4p into consideration. That ups the value of SM for glyph of HT to 8.33% (compared to the 6.67% I said above). With 4p, glyphed HT is worth about 6.6 hpm.

Assuming a 5-8 haste increase per ilvl, and a 7ilvl increase from HToES to H5.2 (whatever that's called :P), I'd guess about a ~45 increase in haste from current HM gear to 5.2 HM gear per piece. Assuming every piece of gear you have on has haste in current tier (without reforging to or from, and ignoring gems/enchants): you'd have about 8000 haste right now (obviously not every piece has haste, and a lot of people would probably tend to avoid pieces with haste once they're over the cap). IF you had that much, and again, that's not possible since many pieces don't have haste, you'd be stuck at 4800 after reforging.

Next tier, assuming every piece had haste on it, you could expect about an additional 600 haste. And would be stuck with 5160 after reforging. So in theory, it is possible to be close enough to the 6652 cap right now that it's worth going for (if you had haste in every piece that could possibly have it, which you likely don't). As for the 13163 cap, that won't be obtainable even next tier with all haste gear.

I'm a moonkin who will be forced to heal on Grand Empress heroic, can you suggest any healing addons which can make it easier for me to heal. I'm mostly looking for raid frames, like grid, but which is already configurated for resto!!

I'm a moonkin who will be forced to heal on Grand Empress heroic, can you suggest any healing addons which can make it easier for me to heal. I'm mostly looking for raid frames, like grid, but which is already configurated for resto!!

Thx

Vudho is (mostly) already configured, out of the box, including debuffs etc - all you have to do is set up the spells to the clicks on your mouse (EG, I use left = rejuv, left+shift=dispell), and put the HoT icons on the bars. Very simple to figure out, can recommend.

Quick question for those more adept at napkin math than myself -- have the new SotF breakpoints been determined for 5.2 when it becomes buffed from 50% to 70%? If so, I'd be happy to hear of them. If they've already been posted in this massive thread, just say so and I'll go digging through the pages myself. I just wanted to know BEFORE I go digging, which is always a dicey adventure. Thank you ^_^

With the current soft haste cap (3043), we're guaranteed 14 ticks with the PTR SoF+WG. To get up to 15 ticks, we'd need 6845 haste, which is not worth going for. (In that case, you're only getting an additional 7% healing from WG, but you're having to spend an additional 6,800 stats to get it.)

Dendrek how did you come up with this ? i am confused unless i am counting something wrong but with current sotf and 5730 haste we get 13 ticks; with new improve sotf and haste to be 5730 we then reach above the next sotf (current limit) which was 9543 (above that number). Basically if someone is running sotf with 5730 haste with new improve sotf he will get one extra tick without changing anything. I will publish the exact number of new haste cap for 14 ticks later. Also we get additional ticks on lifebloom and lifebloom blooming (if we use the glyph of blooming) without changing anything and we could aim for the 10101 limit which adds another tick on lifebloom.

P.S. Unless i am wrong with 8k haste + sotf we reach all haste limits on current haste table.

In total, you need 92.86% haste to get 14 ticks. You need 107.25% haste to get 15 ticks.
With the raid buff (5%) and SoF (70%), it takes:
= 1.9286/(1.05*1.7)-1 = 0.0804 = 8.04% haste to get 14 ticks. That's 3419 haste needed for 14 ticks. (It turns out I was mistaken earlier when claiming we get 14 ticks without extra haste. I misinterpreted the numbers I got. I think I mistakenly looked at the haste chart wrong without confirming the actual amount of haste 8.04% equals.)
= 2.0725/(1.05*1.7)-1 = 0.1611 = 16.11% haste to get 15 ticks. That's 6846 haste needed for 15 ticks.

I'm glad you called me out on that. I really hate giving bad information.

Also, in case you're wondering how I got those values, I'll give a basic breakdown of the first one so you can confirm my results if you like:
Start with the fact that it takes 92.86% haste to get 14 ticks. (I can confirm this value too, if you like, but since it's in the haste chart, I won't bother in this post.) Converted to a decimal, that's 0.9286. It's important to know that haste effects are multiplicative. So it would be untrue to say that 5% and 70% = 75% (that would be additive). Instead, it's 1.05*1.70 = 1.785 = 78.5%. Knowing that, we want to figure out how much haste you'd need from gear to reach 92.86%. The haste from gear is also multiplicative with the other effects and so all three combined would look like: 1.05*1.70*(1+x/100), where x = the percent haste from gear (in percent form).

In effect, we want:
1.05*1.70*(1+x/100) - 1 = 0.9286

Solve for x (if you're pretty good with algebra, this should be easy) and you'll get 8.04%.

Since 425 haste rating = 1% haste, it takes 425*8.04 = 3417 (edit: this is a rounding issue, above I said it was 3419 which is because I used the larger/more accurate decimal to find that value; 3419 is the correct value — and I just checked it again to be sure) haste rating to get 14 ticks with SoF.

P.S. I typed all that up while in an instance, so forgive me for mistakes if any exist.

---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 09:11 AM ----------

I think I might have misread what you were saying. One thing that's confusing me is your argument about Lifebloom. SoF only affects one spell (the first one cast after Swiftmend is used). Lifebloom is too weak a spell to use it on (although perhaps that would increase the number of OOC procs -- that might be interesting, just be wary that when Lifebloom is refreshed, all buffs affecting the old version are overwritten). You also seem to be mentioning different breakpoints than what I pointed out. If there's something I've overlooked, I'd be happy to correct my math.

Mathematically the 5730 Haste breakpoint for SotF is not worth it, and even the new SotF breakpoint on the PTR isn't worth it. You end up giving up about 4-5% Mastery (essentially 4-5% to all healing done) just to increase the healing of one spell by 8%. I also don't advocate going for the 6652 breakpoint for the 9th tick of WG for similar reasons.

You shouldn't be worrying about those high Haste breakpoints until later tiers when we have a ridiculous overabundance of Haste over the 3043 breakpoint. The high Haste breakpoints mattered back in T12 because WG did 35-40% of our healing. WG gets no where near that now. You'll get more output just hitting the 3043 and chasing Mastery.

Dont forget we get the raid buff of mastery so how much mastery do you need ? I have played with high mastery in this tier and havent notice a difference in output ofc i cant really tell since i havent clear heroic modes and we usually heal with 6 healers (our selection consists of 2 discs,1 hpala,2 monks ,2 shamans and me and setup is depending the fights) i also have been use sotf mostly since it was first introduced so i think 5731 *always want to be sure :P* is not hard to reach or you need to lose alot of stats.

The bloom effect i mentioned is because of the table in this guide mentioning it .

Based on your work 6846 is the last haste breakpoint to get to the end of the current table which means its half of the current price (13426 haste+raid buff) indicate in tables while the % change in sotf is 20% extra are you sure about it? To be honest i have quickly check your post and did't understand it but i will check more closely later on.

P.S. first haste cap for sotf is 1846 not 3043 , 3043 is for rejuv,traq and lifebloom.