Scoring Help, Huh?

Some high volume scorers can help their teammates be more efficient by taking the "tough shots." I would argue that D. Rose has that effect on the Bulls. I'm not sure anyone would say Ellis would have the same effect, but I can't be certain.

Ellis plays 40 minutes a game. I'm guessing that the 8 minutes he's out you have bench players for both teams. So probably not the most useful data.

I was making more of a general observation that a high volume "average efficiency" scorer can sometimes help teammates who can't create their own looks get easier shots due to the gunner drawing heavy defensive attention.

Again, IMO this is definitely the case with Rose. With Ellis I don't know, but probably not- although the team did score well.

Iguodala is about equal in efficiency. Not close in terms of point production.

You cannot assume that if Iguodala took 50% more shots by increasing his usage rate that he would maintain his efficiency.

Both players are about average in terms of scoring efficiency. Iguodala does this with average offensive scoring production, and a great A/TO ratio. Ellis does this with comparatively high offensive scoring production (20+ pts/36 min and able to give you 40 min/gm), but at the expense of using up more possessions and not as good of A/TO.

You can't just extrapolate a low use guy to a high use guy. For example, in 1999-2000 Shaq scored about 30 pts/game on great percentages. That same year Dikembe had roughly the same or better FG%, eFG%, TS%. But you would never say Dikembe was a better scorer than Shaq.

And you're not taking into account that Ellis can create his own shot - which in MANY of the games that we lost this year, we didn't have anyone reliable enough (ie. Igoudala) to score a bucket when absolutely necessary. Ellis providing even one or two of those in a game could change the result of many of our losses this season.

And you're assuming that he won't be held accountable to defend by Collins. In addition, Golden State as a team has never prioritized the defensive side of the ball.

Igoudala needs to be traded to free up a spot for Evan Turner, and we need a scorer - Period. (as well as a big man that we can draft) That doesn't mean that Igoudala isn't a very good player. He's just not a fit moving forward.

One more comment. The trade doesn't replace Igoudala for Ellis. It ends up replacing Meeks with Ellis, and Igoudala with Turner. Turner in my opinion has the tools to develop into a very good defender.

This is the same bs logic Kate Fagan keeps using. Within your ratation, iguodala's 37 minutes of excellent defense are being replaced by 40 minutes of terrible defense by Monta. Putting it any other way is spinning it to deflect the issue.

I think Evan Turner played like a rookie and was a bit overwhelmed. Do I think it means he can't become a very good or great player? No. I haven't soured on him.

You have to give up something to get something. Igoudala believes he's a superstar and he couldn't be further from one. He's a very good player and an asset that I believe should be traded for another piece of the puzzle. Perhaps Ellis isn't the answer, but we need a scorer and a bigman that isn't timid in the paint and can rebound. Take your pick on what you want to get for Igoudala, but it's time to move him to move forward. This needs to be Jrue Holiday's team, and while Igoudala is here, that isn't going to happen.

Same reason we're talking about trading Igoudala. Gotta give something to get something when building a team. Guess we'll find out what Rod Thorn thinks is the best plan soon enough. If Igoudala's ego can handle becoming a 3rd or 4th option in the offense while we add a scorer and our young guys get better, than i'm all for keeping him. I don't see that happening though.

B. You must not read this blog much, I don't delve into the 'fantasy bullshit' trade ideas in general because most of them are asinine and imbalanced.

It's obvious that you are one of those Iguodala Haters who think he needs to go just for the sake of making a change.

It's also obvious that you buy into the inane logic that people like Kate Fagan use to try and justify a Monta Ellis for Andre Iguodala swap as good for the sixers.

Very intelligent people have already proven to my satisfaction that anyone who thinks a straight up swap is good for the sixers should be sterilized for the good of humanity. Just because I don't have a 'better' trade than the one you've suggested (though I did actually suggest one involving russell westbrook weeks ago - look it up) doesn't meant that the Ellis trade is a good one mr strawman

And you're assuming that he won't be held accountable to defend by Collins. In addition, Golden State as a team has never prioritized the defensive side of the ball.

I'm not buying into this constant BS argument - defense is effort - on any team you can play good defense IF YOU WANT TO - they didn't just stand around and let the other team score - they suck at defense.

Any time somone uses such a nonsensical statement - their entire argument loses merit with me - sorry

And there are many many ways to create a shot - isos at the end of games are the dumbest moves in the wolrd - stupid coaching and lazy coaching - set a pick - run a play - move around - CREATE OPEN SHOTS for everyone on the court.

I'd rather someone set a pick for jodie meeks than depend on lou williams (or monta ellis) beating his man when EVERYONE KNOWS he's going to drive to the basket.

A lot of Ellis supporters have brought up his good "clutch time numbers" and Iguodala's poor ones.

1. Iguodala is being grossly misused if you are asking him to be a teams "offensive closer." He has many strengths, but no one would argue that this would be his best role.

2. GSW got outscored in clutch time by a wide margin. Unbalanced offense and poor shot selection often leads to easy baskets on the other end. And we all know Ellis is a poor defender the 90% of the time "he does not try."

3. Yes, Ellis averages 44pts/48min clutch time... but what is his usage? In regualr settings Ellis takes 20 shots/48 min and has a usage rate of 30%. But in "clutch" he shoots 30 shots/48 minutes. I'm guessing that makes for a usage rate of over 50%.

So extrapolate that... if a guy uses up 1/2 of your team's possessions jacking up jumpers and gets you 44 pts per game... is that good offense?

4. Guys that can't play well within a team setting do better if you tell them "just go out there and shoot." A prime example is how well Lou is at "2 for 1" times. And that is great if you need a guy to get a key basket. But its not so great for the other 46 minutes of the game.

Interesting thread. I have to say that I haven't seen @JasonShea make any argument about clutch statistics, so @GoSixers seems to ascribe to the "put words into mouths" methodology of argument. That's the last refuge of a guy who can't argue logically. So is the ad hominem attack, like when he calls Fagan's logic BS and then doesn't provide any sort of substantial evidence-based response to @JasonShea or Kate Fagan. It doesn't help that the feeble attempt he does provide is completely wrong, considering that Iguodala's defense would be replaced by TURNER (a seemingly very competent defender), not Ellis. Meeks' defense would be replaced by Ellis.

@GoSixers, take a logic or argument class please.

I can't speak for anyone else, but Holiday, Ellis and Turner is a much formidable 1-3 rotation than Holiday, Meeks and Iguodala, in my opinion. It also makes Meeks, Lou and Thaddeus a very potent offensive substitution rotation. If we can snag Markieff Morris at 16, that would give us real frontcourt depth.

Unless they've changed the meaning of the word replaced - that's not a fact - that's a supposition, with no data to support it, Andre Iguodala is one of the top wing defenders in the league. There is factual EVIDENCE to support his ability to shut down super star players that keeps sixers in games they shouldn't be in.

I see no factual evidence to support your baseless assertion that indicates that Evan Turners defense will REPLACE Andre Iguodalas. Evan Turner may 'play defense' in the same position as Andre Iguodala, that doesn't now mean his defense will adequately replace Iguodalas. In fact most available evidence indicates that Turner is not athletic enough (or strong enough) to play defense as well as Andre Iguodala.

However, a lot of evidence indicates that Monta Ellis couldn't defend a quadrapalegic who fell out of his wheelchair. Quite a bit of evidence indicates that Ellis and turner is still a step down from Iguodala Meeks.

Aside, yet again, from your baseless opinion, please use 'logic' (as you call it because you haven't actually used any yet) to support.

Dude, I know you think you're pretty smart and witty, but let's review the transcript, since YOU are the one that introduced the concept of replacing Iguodala's D with Ellis'. You said:

"This is the same bs logic Kate Fagan keeps using. Within your ratation, iguodala's 37 minutes of excellent defense are being replaced by 40 minutes of terrible defense by Monta. Putting it any other way is spinning it to deflect the issue."

The word replace, in this context, means to take the place of as a substitute or successor. It doesn't mean to exchange with someone or something of equal value. You're out of your depth, buddy, and functionally illiterate. I never said it would be adequately replaced or equally replaced (there you go again putting words into people's mouths). But he would replace Iguodala on the court as @JasonShea said, which means his defense would replace Iguodala's. You know, AS A SUCCESSOR!?!?!?

And from what I saw, Turner can play some D and develop quite a bit further.

from watching Ellis play (the few times I have), he strikes me as a guy who has to make a couple of shots and layups to get in a groove. When he's in that groove, he can really do damage. But the price you pay for getting him there is possessions. In a system like Golden State's, it's not as much of a sacrifice as it would be for ours, where DC emphasizes turnovers to maximize possessions.

Probably blasphemy on this blog right now, but I actually was hoping for something more like Wright, Biedrins & #11 for Igoudala (and maybe #16). I like Turner as a two and think Wright would be ideal at the 3. I like Gallinari too.

Because you need his contract to make the deal work. You're getting a steal with Wright's contract so you'll have to take back something unwanted from GS. And he's only 25, is he a total lost cause? Worst case, maybe they'd be able to waive him after the new CBA. If #11 got us Biyombo, I would do that deal.

Um, you know he was the NBA's most improved player this year, right? And he's nothing like Speights. No idea where you're getting that from. He actually was one of the only Warriors who played a lick of D last season. Avg'd 16-5-3 and shoots the 3 well. He's also making 25% of what Igoudala's making. Biedrins is the tax on the deal, but he's only 25 and at one point was a premier pick-and-dive player. I'd rather take my chances with that deal (and move up for Biyombo) than move laterally for Ellis.

I think too many people still think the sixers are just 'one player away'.

This is a playoff team starting two guys who probably wouldn't start on most of the serious title contenders this year, one of whome might not sniff the rotation (depending on who the other big men were)

This is a playoff team with a lot of good bench guys - if you need scoring (not shooting) off the bench - but no 'defensive stoppers', no 3 point specialists (man kyle korver, who knew we had it so good) and hell, the only back up bigman this team really has is grandpa battie.

That doesn't get into the fact that the starting PF is just much older than everyone else and doesn't have many years left and there's no one on the roster who could possibly replace him - so realistically you need to find THREE starters beofe this team is a title contender (and that's assuming you don't get rid of Iguodala or if you do that Evan Turner DOES pan out)

So you need 3 starters, and a more balanced bench.

To me - trading Iguodala straight up for another long term guy who is less talented (all around) than Iguodala makes absolutely no sense. Now you're starting turner - and maybe he's a starter - maybe he isn't - but you still have all those other problems, and your best scorer off the bench was made redundant by monta ellis but ellis makes a lot more money and passes the ball a lot less, so then you gotta trade lou for pennies on the dollar cause everyone knows you don't need him any more.

Course, none of that can be logical, cause as we all know, I've never used logic, I never took logic, I never used symbolic logic to prove that 2+2=4, and I don't know what p and q tend to signify when studying logic because I'm too dim to comprehend logic.

A straight up swap for Iguodala for a worse all around player is asinine because the sixers aren't better - short or long term

Focusing everyone's hate on Iguodala is a genius plan though - let's focus on Iguodala so everyone ignores the 6 or 7 other flaws in our roster that won't be fixed by trading Iguodala.

Why would you have to trade Lou if you add Ellis? One is a bench guy and one is a starter. Their games have a bit of similarity but not that much, and aren't points off the bench a valuable commodity? And why would you assume we'd get pennies on the dollar if we did trade him? As a litigator would say, these are all facts not in evidence.

Trading Iguodala to upgrade a particular skillset could be a good idea depending on who we get in return. Holiday is blossoming as a defender. Turner can defend and needs minutes. We have to figure out what Turner is, and playing him big minutes is the only way to do that. No one is hating on Iguodala by suggesting we trade a good player to upgrade somewhere else. Fact is, Ellis brings a lot to the table that Iguodala doesn't and his presence would open up the floor for Holiday to take over the team. We'd sacrifice some defense at one position, add some offense at another, and possibly smooth out some of the problems we have in the halfcourt.

Probably blasphemy on this blog right now, but I actually was hoping for something more like Wright, Biedrins & #11 for Igoudala (and maybe #16). I like Turner as a two and think Wright would be ideal at the 3. I like Gallinari too.

Did anyone see the March 6 game versus the Warriors when Ellis had a horrible first three quarters and brought them back almost single handed? What does efficiency have to do with that? It's about scoring when the team needs points. That's a talent I always hoped Iguodala would developed and he just hasn't seven years into his career. Jrue has it. Lou has it. Brand has it. Seems Turner has it. Ellis has it!

For the record I don't want Ellis. Then again I don't want Iguodala anymore either. We've seen the best of Iggy's game and it has never equaled a plus .500 record. Evan Turner is my guy. He has been since game one if the season and will be till he proves me wrong.

Collins is a good coach and we have some intriguing combos and possibilities if you switch out players by trades. I can't understand the sudden negativity over change, which as I've repeatedly said, can be good. Different elements type of way.

Example being as someone mentioned, the halfcourt can improve and become potent, if you make that move and secure a legit draft pick that is preferably a big. Stretch four or post-type, just some different looks from a personnel standpoint.

Collins has proven to be nothing short of a magician. I mean, who the hell takes Spencer Hawes, and Elton Brand as your main 5's and ends up with a top 10 defense in the league in your first year with those two!

someone said about how many flaws this team has. Well all teams have flaws. The trick is to hide them or negate them by being really good at other parts of the game. So IMO the top three flaws of this team.

1. Interior play/rebounding. While having some players who are very good at rebounding for there position imagine if we had someone who could grab us a few more off. and deff. boards = more poss./increased chance of a win.

2. Half court off. I think there are several ways you could improve this area but do not have the stats/info to back up my theroy so if anyone wants to take a shot at this please go ahead? Just please for my own sanity do not say trade for M. Ellis.

3. We need to find a way to always have a respected 3 point shot on the floor. Guess that might help with #2.

I did not add shot blocking because I think it is more important to force difficult shots/contested shots. How often are blocked shots retained, put back in for a basket vs. being recovered by the Deff. team. Compare that to the % that the a team gets Deff. rebounds.

There are so many ways to fix the flaws and I think that is why it is so much fun to talk about. Also I have learned so much about the NBA from reading this blog and would like to Thank Brian and all who help contribute to it.

I agree that sometimes the trick is to hide your weaknesses. The problem is the two weaknesses that the team has are almost impossible to hide.

- Inside defense is essential for any contending team and it is not possible to succeed without it. And in order to fix it you simply need to have big men that can play defense or can be taught to play defense.
- Half court offense and 3pt shooting are part of the same problem IMO. The modern NBA is all about PG penetration and court vision and spacing from the SG/SF/PF spots. Hopefully we are set at PG long term and we won't need to discuss that anytime soon. As for spacing, this problem can probably be solved in a variety of ways and at times you can hide a weak shooter at one position if you have a good one on another. The key here is solving the spacing issue without hurting the defense. What the team needs is an elite shooter, that can play at least average defense at the SG or SF position. Jrue/Turner/shooter or Jrue/Iguodala/shooter would work long term if they can acquire one. Unfortunately those king of players are actually very rare, despite general perception that shooters with defense are dime a dozen...

Maybe it's not just some Sixer fans who value PPG and smaller contracts. I doubt Ellis can get a top pick, but I do think Ellis can probably get a higher pick than Iggy. Iggy's injuries, escalating contract, and desire to be traded really hurt his trade value in my opinion.