Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

Please POST (no emails please) Why you want to join this site (ESA) and whether you have: any connections to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have a story

Message 1 of 11
, Sep 16, 2012

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Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
you want to join this site (ESA) and
whether you have: any connections
to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
& insights involving Harold Klemp
and/or Eckankar.

Thanks,
Prometheus

Lady

Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the Hu looking for some history behind it

Message 2 of 11
, Sep 19, 2012

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Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up. I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!! But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy, and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite enough, there was no real substance, just regurgitated words of the same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates shy away from

Message 3 of 11
, Sep 19, 2012

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Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.

Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up. I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!! But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy, and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
enough, there was no real substance, just regurgitated words of the same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

Hello All, Thanks for sharing and bringing up this subject. Many H.I.s, unfortunately for them, feel rather aloof and spiritually advanced due to the number

Message 4 of 11
, Sep 19, 2012

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Hello All,
Thanks for sharing and
bringing up this subject.
Many H.I.s, unfortunately
for them, feel rather aloof
and spiritually advanced
due to the "number" on
their EK membership cards.

They are deluded enough
to think that this number
is an indication of Higher
Con because the liar Twitchell
said it was in order to
sell more memberships
and materials. Klemp
continues the lie!

The biggest argument for
these deluded people are
the few stories told of Twit,
Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
seen somewhere on the
streets, etc. or in a dream
before these newbies saw
their pictures and were
told that these were EK
"Masters."

Klemp has even revamped
people's experiences of having
seen Jesus by having Ekists
show them pics of Gopal Das,
whereby, they suddenly realized
that it wasn't Jesus after all.
It was a mistake in identity
and was actually Gopal Das
whom they saw!

The truth is most H.I.s have
little to no actual spiritual
experiences or dreams and
they grab at straws. The
amount of experiences are
no more than any other group
that focuses upon mental
techniques during meditation
or before going to sleep.

As with all religions it is
a matter of faith and belief
and Klemp has even mentioned
that was this was the real
key to Eckankar.

I remember once that Klemp
told 4th initiates to hang out
with 5ths and 6ths as a way
to share in their consciousness
and prepare for their 5th. One
person I knew quit hanging
out with her non-H.I. friends
and even looked down her nose
at lower initiates (like herself).

Basically, as it is within any
hierarchy, the long timers
want to see the newbies go
through the same amount
of crap they had to go through.
It's jealously and envy.

These H.I.s don't know anymore
about spiritual matters than
the next person because it's
all subjective.

Basically, old outdated techniques
like focusing upon the Third-
Eye versus the Crown chakra
will never be changed even
though an older EK discourse
uses the Crown Chakra technique.

Other than that it's all about
selling and supporting Klemp's
ego and the EK Organization
which is Klemp's inherited
vocation and spiritual con.

Thus, the survival of the EK
Org. and support of Klemp's
second rate books will continue
to be the central focus of Eckankar

Prometheus

Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.

Lady wrote:

Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up. I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!! But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy, and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite enough, there was no real substance, just regurgitated words of the same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

Klemp has even revamped people s experiences of having seen Jesus by having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly realized that it wasn t

Message 5 of 11
, Sep 19, 2012

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"Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"

***

That's ironic. Here's why.

The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:

"When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."

The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:

"When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
`I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."

The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":

Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
Divine Grace.'"

The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":

Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
Grace.'"

"[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy —
walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
splendors of Rome. [....]"

Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
432, 2nd paragraph.

"[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"

Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
version.

Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
text.

Hello All,
Thanks for sharing and
bringing up this subject.
Many H.I.s, unfortunately
for them, feel rather aloof
and spiritually advanced
due to the "number" on
their EK membership cards.

They are deluded enough
to think that this number
is an indication of Higher
Con because the liar Twitchell
said it was in order to
sell more memberships
and materials. Klemp
continues the lie!

The biggest argument for
these deluded people are
the few stories told of Twit,
Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
seen somewhere on the
streets, etc. or in a dream
before these newbies saw
their pictures and were
told that these were EK
"Masters."

Klemp has even revamped
people's experiences of having
seen Jesus by having Ekists
show them pics of Gopal Das,
whereby, they suddenly realized
that it wasn't Jesus after all.
It was a mistake in identity
and was actually Gopal Das
whom they saw!

The truth is most H.I.s have
little to no actual spiritual
experiences or dreams and
they grab at straws. The
amount of experiences are
no more than any other group
that focuses upon mental
techniques during meditation
or before going to sleep.

As with all religions it is
a matter of faith and belief
and Klemp has even mentioned
that was this was the real
key to Eckankar.

I remember once that Klemp
told 4th initiates to hang out
with 5ths and 6ths as a way
to share in their consciousness
and prepare for their 5th. One
person I knew quit hanging
out with her non-H.I. friends
and even looked down her nose
at lower initiates (like herself).

Basically, as it is within any
hierarchy, the long timers
want to see the newbies go
through the same amount
of crap they had to go through.
It's jealously and envy.

These H.I.s don't know anymore
about spiritual matters than
the next person because it's
all subjective.

Basically, old outdated techniques
like focusing upon the Third-
Eye versus the Crown chakra
will never be changed even
though an older EK discourse
uses the Crown Chakra technique.

Other than that it's all about
selling and supporting Klemp's
ego and the EK Organization
which is Klemp's inherited
vocation and spiritual con.

Thus, the survival of the EK
Org. and support of Klemp's
second rate books will continue
to be the central focus of Eckankar

Prometheus

Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.

Lady wrote:

Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at

Message 6 of 11
, Sep 19, 2012

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Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative, but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to live it.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
>
> "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
> having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
> realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
> and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
>
> ***
>
> That's ironic. Here's why.
>
> Â The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
> Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
>
> "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
> more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
> were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
> To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
> exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
>
> Â Â The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
> Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
>
> "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
> `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
> saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
> grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
> for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
>
>
> The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
> Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
>
> Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
> live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
> way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
> Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
> by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
> Divine Grace.'"
>
> Â The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
> Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
>
> Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
> have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
> said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
> Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
> Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
> conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
> Grace.'"
>
> http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
>
> OK. You'll love this next one :)
>
> "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
> spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
> when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
> who might have commanded any army â" so great was his mental energy â"
> walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
> the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
> splendors of Rome. [....]"
>
> Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
> 432, 2nd paragraph.
>
> http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
>
>
> "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
> spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
> when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
> Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
> walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
> that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
> greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
>
> Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
> Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
> copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
> paragraph.
>
> Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
> Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
>
> Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
> corresponding quotes).
>
> TKTE - p. 40
>
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
>
> PTP p. 21
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
>
> Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
> Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
> the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
> version.
>
> Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
> the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
> text.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
> <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 6:49 pm
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or
> Posting Comments on this site:
>
> Â
> Hello All,
> Thanks for sharing and
> bringing up this subject.
> Many H.I.s, unfortunately
> for them, feel rather aloof
> and spiritually advanced
> due to the "number" on
> their EK membership cards.
>
> They are deluded enough
> to think that this number
> is an indication of Higher
> Con because the liar Twitchell
> said it was in order to
> sell more memberships
> and materials. Klemp
> continues the lie!
>
> The biggest argument for
> these deluded people are
> the few stories told of Twit,
> Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
> seen somewhere on the
> streets, etc. or in a dream
> before these newbies saw
> their pictures and were
> told that these were EK
> "Masters."
>
> Klemp has even revamped
> people's experiences of having
> seen Jesus by having Ekists
> show them pics of Gopal Das,
> whereby, they suddenly realized
> that it wasn't Jesus after all.
> It was a mistake in identity
> and was actually Gopal Das
> whom they saw!
>
> The truth is most H.I.s have
> little to no actual spiritual
> experiences or dreams and
> they grab at straws. The
> amount of experiences are
> no more than any other group
> that focuses upon mental
> techniques during meditation
> or before going to sleep.
>
> As with all religions it is
> a matter of faith and belief
> and Klemp has even mentioned
> that was this was the real
> key to Eckankar.
>
> I remember once that Klemp
> told 4th initiates to hang out
> with 5ths and 6ths as a way
> to share in their consciousness
> and prepare for their 5th. One
> person I knew quit hanging
> out with her non-H.I. friends
> and even looked down her nose
> at lower initiates (like herself).
>
> Basically, as it is within any
> hierarchy, the long timers
> want to see the newbies go
> through the same amount
> of crap they had to go through.
> It's jealously and envy.
>
> These H.I.s don't know anymore
> about spiritual matters than
> the next person because it's
> all subjective.
>
> Basically, old outdated techniques
> like focusing upon the Third-
> Eye versus the Crown chakra
> will never be changed even
> though an older EK discourse
> uses the Crown Chakra technique.
>
> Other than that it's all about
> selling and supporting Klemp's
> ego and the EK Organization
> which is Klemp's inherited
> vocation and spiritual con.
>
> Thus, the survival of the EK
> Org. and support of Klemp's
> second rate books will continue
> to be the central focus of Eckankar
>
> Prometheus
>
> Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
> it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
> shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
> they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
> like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
> and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
> jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
> kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
> they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
>
> Lady wrote:
>
> Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
> because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
> some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
> I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
> clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
> people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
> having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
> somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
> ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
> eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
> than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
> time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
> But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
> and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
> enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
> same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
> wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
> how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
> thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
> me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
> episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
> doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
> best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
> for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
> pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
> the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
> the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
> > you want to join this site (ESA) and
> > whether you have: any connections
> > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
> > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
> > & insights involving Harold Klemp
> > and/or Eckankar.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Prometheus
>

prometheus_973

Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All, As far as my religious views... well, I can t even say I m a pagan. I don t believe in any religion. In some ways I m both

Message 7 of 11
, Sep 21, 2012

0 Attachment

Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
As far as my religious views...
well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
I don't believe in any religion.
In some ways I'm both theist
and deist, thus, I'm neither
agnostic or atheist. I do believe
that a deity or deities of some
sort exist or existed and they
began or seeded the universes.

And, (IMO) I believe that there
is some sort of "intervention."
This is merely one reason as
to why "spiritual/religious"
experiences i.e. miracles were
explained. People will naturally
imagine/create, via the mind,
all sorts of things. Religions
have simply used these events/
experiences to reenforce their
hold upon people. Still, IMO,
there are unexplainable mysterious
non-religious connections.
We can even call this a Soul
to Soul connection linked to
an overall network (Over-Soul
i.e. Spirit).

Thus, I do believe that there
is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
whereby, people can experience
and/or tap into this "divine"
(or not) mental-energy source.
IMO We are all "plugged" into
this network by various ways
and means and at various
levels (not planes).

There are many variables.
It could be that this "Source"
is a mental and DNA link
that expands as we open
up certain areas of the mind.
Thus, our potential is enabled
more and more as we naturally
use our curiosity to explore
and expand via technology
and new thought patterns.
It's obvious, to me, that
every individual is at their
own unique stage of evolution.

Group religions create a plateau
and will merely close off and
stunt potential growth/expansion
of awareness for individuals.
This is why all religions will
use and rely upon "belief" and
"faith" to reenforce their religious
foundation. Klemp has done
the same with Eckankar.

********************************

When I was an EK leader I would
go out of my way to talk to people
individually, especially, after the
EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
would even encourage the cleric
and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
to the newbies whether EKists
or non-EKists instead of gathering
in groups with their friends.

I tried to give people what they
were seeking but via of the EK
teachings. Still, there's a lot of
subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
Guidelines and EK Dogma does
tend to limit what one is supposed
to share. And, it was difficult
and somewhat frustrating to
discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
with people who had not read
of or understood (been suckered
into) that special (pretend)
relationship with the Inner
Mahanta. This is where one
develops a codependent
relationship with an imaginary
being who is, actually, ones
own "inner" self.

Anyway, I did greet, listen to
and welcome-in those EKists
who didn't show up often at
EK events and those non-EKists
who were curious about Eckankar
and seeing what "ECKists" looked
like.

However, regardless of one's
sincerity and confidence of
belief, discussions of the "Divine"
are still very subjective, and
uniquely personal. Therefore
I'm sure that everyone on this
site (ESA) has a different and
unique view, as well as, unique
and private "spiritual" experiences
that have led us to where we
are now... wherever that is!
I'm sure that it's still in flux
as we continue to explore
within our own semi-established
beliefs.

Prometheus

"Lady" wrote:
Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
live it.

etznab wrote:

>
> "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
> having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
> realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
> and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
>
> ***
>
> That's ironic. Here's why.
>
> The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
> Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
>
> "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
> more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
> were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
> To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
> exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
>
> The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
> Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
>
> "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
> `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
> saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
> grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
> for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
>
>
> The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
> Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
>
> Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
> live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
> way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
> Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
> by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
> Divine Grace.'"
>
> The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
> Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
>
> Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
> have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
> said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
> Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
> Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
> conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
> Grace.'"
>
> http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
>
> OK. You'll love this next one :)
>
> "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
> spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
> when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
> who might have commanded any army â" so great was his mental energy â"
> walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
> the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
> splendors of Rome. [....]"
>
> Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
> 432, 2nd paragraph.
>

>
>
> "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
> spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
> when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
> Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
> walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
> that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
> greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
>
> Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
> Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
> copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
> paragraph.
>
> Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
> Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
>
> Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
> corresponding quotes).
>
> TKTE - p. 40
>
>

>
> Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
> Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
> the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
> version.
>
> Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
> the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
> text.
>
>

prometheus wrote:

> Hello All,
> Thanks for sharing and
> bringing up this subject.
> Many H.I.s, unfortunately
> for them, feel rather aloof
> and spiritually advanced
> due to the "number" on
> their EK membership cards.
>
> They are deluded enough
> to think that this number
> is an indication of Higher
> Con because the liar Twitchell
> said it was in order to
> sell more memberships
> and materials. Klemp
> continues the lie!
>
> The biggest argument for
> these deluded people are
> the few stories told of Twit,
> Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
> seen somewhere on the
> streets, etc. or in a dream
> before these newbies saw
> their pictures and were
> told that these were EK
> "Masters."
>
> Klemp has even revamped
> people's experiences of having
> seen Jesus by having Ekists
> show them pics of Gopal Das,
> whereby, they suddenly realized
> that it wasn't Jesus after all.
> It was a mistake in identity
> and was actually Gopal Das
> whom they saw!
>
> The truth is most H.I.s have
> little to no actual spiritual
> experiences or dreams and
> they grab at straws. The
> amount of experiences are
> no more than any other group
> that focuses upon mental
> techniques during meditation
> or before going to sleep.
>
> As with all religions it is
> a matter of faith and belief
> and Klemp has even mentioned
> that was this was the real
> key to Eckankar.
>
> I remember once that Klemp
> told 4th initiates to hang out
> with 5ths and 6ths as a way
> to share in their consciousness
> and prepare for their 5th. One
> person I knew quit hanging
> out with her non-H.I. friends
> and even looked down her nose
> at lower initiates (like herself).
>
> Basically, as it is within any
> hierarchy, the long timers
> want to see the newbies go
> through the same amount
> of crap they had to go through.
> It's jealously and envy.
>
> These H.I.s don't know anymore
> about spiritual matters than
> the next person because it's
> all subjective.
>
> Basically, old outdated techniques
> like focusing upon the Third-
> Eye versus the Crown chakra
> will never be changed even
> though an older EK discourse
> uses the Crown Chakra technique.
>
> Other than that it's all about
> selling and supporting Klemp's
> ego and the EK Organization
> which is Klemp's inherited
> vocation and spiritual con.
>
> Thus, the survival of the EK
> Org. and support of Klemp's
> second rate books will continue
> to be the central focus of Eckankar
>
> Prometheus
>

> Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

> Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
> it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
> shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
> they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
> like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
> and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
> jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
> kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
> they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
>
> Lady wrote:
>
> Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
> because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
> some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
> I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
> clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
> people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
> having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
> somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
> ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
> eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
> than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
> time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
> But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
> and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
> enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
> same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
> wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
> how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
> thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
> me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
> episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
> doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
> best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
> for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
> pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
> the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
> the truth or will figure it out.

Rowan.

Lady Rowan

Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of

Message 8 of 11
, Sep 22, 2012

0 Attachment

Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following. About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more. Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was
beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich. But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way. It's awesome. Rowan

Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,As far as my religious views...well, I can't even say I'm a pagan. I don't believe in any religion. In some ways I'm both theist and deist, thus, I'm neitheragnostic or atheist. I do believethat a deity or deities of somesort exist or existed and theybegan or seeded the universes.

And, (IMO) I believe that there is some sort of "intervention."This is merely one reason as to why "spiritual/religious"experiences i.e. miracles were explained. People will naturally imagine/create, via the mind,all sorts of things. Religions have simply used these events/experiences to reenforce theirhold upon people. Still, IMO,there are unexplainable mysterious non-religious connections.We can even call this a Soul to Soul connection linked toan overall network (Over-Souli.e. Spirit).

Thus, I do believe that there is
a divine harmony of "spirit," whereby, people can experienceand/or tap into this "divine"(or not) mental-energy source. IMO We are all "plugged" into this network by various ways and means and at variouslevels (not planes).

There are many variables. It could be that this "Source" is a mental and DNA link that expands as we open up certain areas of the mind. Thus, our potential is enabled more and more as we naturally use our curiosity to explore and expand via technology and new thought patterns. It's obvious, to me, that every individual is at their own unique stage of evolution.

Group religions create a plateauand will merely close off and stunt potential growth/expansion of awareness for individuals.This is why all religions willuse and rely upon "belief" and "faith" to reenforce their religiousfoundation. Klemp has done the same
with Eckankar.

********************************

When I was an EK leader I wouldgo out of my way to talk to peopleindividually, especially, after the EWS (ECK Worship Service). Iwould even encourage the clericand other H.I.s or 4ths to talk to the newbies whether EKists or non-EKists instead of gathering in groups with their friends.

I tried to give people what theywere seeking but via of the EKteachings. Still, there's a lot ofsubjectivity. Unfortunately, theGuidelines and EK Dogma doestend to limit what one is supposed to share. And, it was difficult and somewhat frustrating to discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief with people who had not read of or understood (been suckered into) that special (pretend) relationship with the Inner Mahanta. This is where onedevelops a codependent relationship with an imaginarybeing who is, actually, ones
own "inner" self.

Anyway, I did greet, listen to and welcome-in those EKists who didn't show up often at EK events and those non-EKists who were curious about Eckankarand seeing what "ECKists" lookedlike.

However, regardless of one's sincerity and confidence of belief, discussions of the "Divine" are still very subjective, and uniquely personal. ThereforeI'm sure that everyone on thissite (ESA) has a different andunique view, as well as, uniqueand private "spiritual" experiences that have led us to where we are now... wherever that is! I'm sure that it's still in flux as we continue to explore within our own semi-established beliefs.

Prometheus

"Lady" wrote:Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with themixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at thegroup center.
I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERYboring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend thatintroduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wantedto know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, Ijust wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) whobecame a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like Iwas at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things likethat. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, Iwondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem tolive it.

etznab wrote:

>> "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by> having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they

suddenly

> realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity> and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!">> ***>> That's ironic. Here's why.>> The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in> Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:>> "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you> more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they> were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.> To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once> exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility.">> The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated> Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:>> "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,> `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the

whole ECK,' he was

> saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not> grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,> for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility.">>> The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in> Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":>> Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We> live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another> way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,> Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited> by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by> Divine Grace.'">> The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way> Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The

Princes":

>> Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and> have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,> said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'> Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,> Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the> conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine> Grace.'">> http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html>> OK. You'll love this next one :)>> "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his> spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did> when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors.

When Jesus,

> who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"> walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry> the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the> splendors of Rome. [....]">> Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.> 432, 2nd paragraph.>

>>> "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his> spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did> when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar> Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,> walked the dusty

>> Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck> Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also> the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's> version.>> Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By> the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier> text.>>

prometheus wrote:

> Hello All,> Thanks for sharing and> bringing up this subject.> Many

H.I.s, unfortunately

> for them, feel rather aloof> and spiritually advanced> due to the "number" on> their EK membership cards.>> They are deluded enough> to think that this number> is an indication of Higher> Con because the liar Twitchell> said it was in order to> sell more memberships> and materials. Klemp> continues the lie!>> The biggest argument for> these deluded people are> the few stories told of Twit,> Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were> seen somewhere on the> streets, etc. or in a dream> before these newbies saw> their pictures and were> told that these were EK> "Masters.">> Klemp has even revamped> people's experiences of having> seen Jesus by having Ekists> show them pics of Gopal Das,> whereby, they suddenly realized> that it wasn't

Jesus after all.

> It was a mistake in identity> and was actually Gopal Das> whom they saw!>> The truth is most H.I.s have> little to no actual spiritual> experiences or dreams and> they grab at straws. The> amount of experiences are> no more than any other group> that focuses upon mental> techniques during meditation> or before going to sleep.>> As with all religions it is> a matter of faith and belief> and Klemp has even mentioned> that was this was the real> key to Eckankar.>> I remember once that Klemp> told 4th initiates to hang out> with 5ths and 6ths as a way> to share in their consciousness> and prepare for their 5th. One> person I knew quit hanging> out with her non-H.I. friends> and even looked down her nose> at lower initiates (like

herself).

>> Basically, as it is within any> hierarchy, the long timers> want to see the newbies go> through the same amount> of crap they had to go through.> It's jealously and envy.>> These H.I.s don't know anymore> about spiritual matters than> the next person because it's> all subjective.>> Basically, old outdated techniques> like focusing upon the Third-> Eye versus the Crown chakra> will never be changed even> though an older EK discourse> uses the Crown Chakra technique.>> Other than that it's all about> selling and supporting Klemp's> ego and the EK Organization> which is Klemp's inherited> vocation and spiritual con.>> Thus, the survival of the EK> Org. and support of Klemp's> second rate books will continue> to be the central focus of

Eckankar

>> Prometheus>

> Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

> Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did> it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates> shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid> they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also> like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new> and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was> jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was> kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences> they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.>> Lady wrote:>> Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is> because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for> some history

behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.

> I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra> clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were> people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but> having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling> somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would> ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and> eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more> than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every> time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!> But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,> and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite> enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated

words of the

> same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I> wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is> how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like> thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around> me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone> episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the> doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their> best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly> for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have> pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in> the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know> the truth or will figure it out.

Rowan.

Non

Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic

Message 9 of 11
, Oct 2, 2012

0 Attachment

Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

Non ; )

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
>
> Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thoughtÂ I could find in any certain group or individuals who would haveÂ any kind of answer, but came up short,Â feel the same toward any specific religion or following.Â About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book beingÂ The Dancing Wu Li MastersÂ (for lay people like me),Â but again always hungered for more.Â Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but IÂ got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
> around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.Â But I do like the fact that scienceÂ has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.Â Â It's awesome.Â RowanÂ Â
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
>
>
> Â
> Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
> As far as my religious views...
> well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
> I don't believe in any religion.
> In some ways I'm both theist
> and deist, thus, I'm neither
> agnostic or atheist. I do believe
> that a deity or deities of some
> sort exist or existed and they
> began or seeded the universes.
>
> And, (IMO) I believe that there
> is some sort of "intervention."
> This is merely one reason as
> to why "spiritual/religious"
> experiences i.e. miracles were
> explained. People will naturally
> imagine/create, via the mind,
> all sorts of things. Religions
> have simply used these events/
> experiences to reenforce their
> hold upon people. Still, IMO,
> there are unexplainable mysterious
> non-religious connections.
> We can even call this a Soul
> to Soul connection linked to
> an overall network (Over-Soul
> i.e. Spirit).
>
> Thus, I do believe that there
> is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
> whereby, people can experience
> and/or tap into this "divine"
> (or not) mental-energy source.
> IMO We are all "plugged" into
> this network by various ways
> and means and at various
> levels (not planes).
>
> There are many variables.
> It could be that this "Source"
> is a mental and DNA link
> that expands as we open
> up certain areas of the mind.
> Thus, our potential is enabled
> more and more as we naturally
> use our curiosity to explore
> and expand via technology
> and new thought patterns.
> It's obvious, to me, that
> every individual is at their
> own unique stage of evolution.
>
> Group religions create a plateau
> and will merely close off and
> stunt potential growth/expansion
> of awareness for individuals.
> This is why all religions will
> use and rely upon "belief" and
> "faith" to reenforce their religious
> foundation. Klemp has done
> the same with Eckankar.
>
> ********************************
>
> When I was an EK leader I would
> go out of my way to talk to people
> individually, especially, after the
> EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
> would even encourage the cleric
> and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
> to the newbies whether EKists
> or non-EKists instead of gathering
> in groups with their friends.
>
> I tried to give people what they
> were seeking but via of the EK
> teachings. Still, there's a lot of
> subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
> Guidelines and EK Dogma does
> tend to limit what one is supposed
> to share. And, it was difficult
> and somewhat frustrating to
> discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
> with people who had not read
> of or understood (been suckered
> into) that special (pretend)
> relationship with the Inner
> Mahanta. This is where one
> develops a codependent
> relationship with an imaginary
> being who is, actually, ones
> own "inner" self.
>
> Anyway, I did greet, listen to
> and welcome-in those EKists
> who didn't show up often at
> EK events and those non-EKists
> who were curious about Eckankar
> and seeing what "ECKists" looked
> like.
>
> However, regardless of one's
> sincerity and confidence of
> belief, discussions of the "Divine"
> are still very subjective, and
> uniquely personal. Therefore
> I'm sure that everyone on this
> site (ESA) has a different and
> unique view, as well as, unique
> and private "spiritual" experiences
> that have led us to where we
> are now... wherever that is!
> I'm sure that it's still in flux
> as we continue to explore
> within our own semi-established
> beliefs.
>
> Prometheus
>
> "Lady" wrote:
> Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
> mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
> group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
> boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
> introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
> to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
> just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
> became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
> but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
> was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
> that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
> wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
> live it.
>
> etznab wrote:
> >
> > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
> > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
> > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
> > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
> >
> > ***
> >
> > That's ironic. Here's why.
> >
> > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
> > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
> >
> > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
> > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
> > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
> > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
> > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
> >
> > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
> > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
> >
> > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
> > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
> > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
> > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
> > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
> >
> >
> > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
> > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
> >
> > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
> > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
> > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
> > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
> > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
> > Divine Grace.'"
> >
> > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
> > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
> >
> > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
> > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
> > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
> > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
> > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
> > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
> > Grace.'"
> >
> > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
> >
> > OK. You'll love this next one :)
> >
> > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
> > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
> > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
> > who might have commanded any army Ã¢â¬" so great was his mental energy Ã¢â¬"
> > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
> > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
> > splendors of Rome. [....]"
> >
> > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
> > 432, 2nd paragraph.
> >
> http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
> >
> >
> > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
> > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
> > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
> > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
> > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
> > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
> > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
> >
> > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
> > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
> > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
> > paragraph.
> >
> > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
> > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
> >
> > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
> > corresponding quotes).
> >
> > TKTE - p. 40
> >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
> Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
> >
> > PTP p. 21
> >
> >
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
> th
> >
> > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
> > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
> > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
> > version.
> >
> > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
> > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
> > text.
> >
> >
> prometheus wrote:
> > Hello All,
> > Thanks for sharing and
> > bringing up this subject.
> > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
> > for them, feel rather aloof
> > and spiritually advanced
> > due to the "number" on
> > their EK membership cards.
> >
> > They are deluded enough
> > to think that this number
> > is an indication of Higher
> > Con because the liar Twitchell
> > said it was in order to
> > sell more memberships
> > and materials. Klemp
> > continues the lie!
> >
> > The biggest argument for
> > these deluded people are
> > the few stories told of Twit,
> > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
> > seen somewhere on the
> > streets, etc. or in a dream
> > before these newbies saw
> > their pictures and were
> > told that these were EK
> > "Masters."
> >
> > Klemp has even revamped
> > people's experiences of having
> > seen Jesus by having Ekists
> > show them pics of Gopal Das,
> > whereby, they suddenly realized
> > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
> > It was a mistake in identity
> > and was actually Gopal Das
> > whom they saw!
> >
> > The truth is most H.I.s have
> > little to no actual spiritual
> > experiences or dreams and
> > they grab at straws. The
> > amount of experiences are
> > no more than any other group
> > that focuses upon mental
> > techniques during meditation
> > or before going to sleep.
> >
> > As with all religions it is
> > a matter of faith and belief
> > and Klemp has even mentioned
> > that was this was the real
> > key to Eckankar.
> >
> > I remember once that Klemp
> > told 4th initiates to hang out
> > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
> > to share in their consciousness
> > and prepare for their 5th. One
> > person I knew quit hanging
> > out with her non-H.I. friends
> > and even looked down her nose
> > at lower initiates (like herself).
> >
> > Basically, as it is within any
> > hierarchy, the long timers
> > want to see the newbies go
> > through the same amount
> > of crap they had to go through.
> > It's jealously and envy.
> >
> > These H.I.s don't know anymore
> > about spiritual matters than
> > the next person because it's
> > all subjective.
> >
> > Basically, old outdated techniques
> > like focusing upon the Third-
> > Eye versus the Crown chakra
> > will never be changed even
> > though an older EK discourse
> > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
> >
> > Other than that it's all about
> > selling and supporting Klemp's
> > ego and the EK Organization
> > which is Klemp's inherited
> > vocation and spiritual con.
> >
> > Thus, the survival of the EK
> > Org. and support of Klemp's
> > second rate books will continue
> > to be the central focus of Eckankar
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
>
> > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
>
> > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
> > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
> > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
> > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
> > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
> > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
> > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
> > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
> > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
> >
> > Lady wrote:
> >
> > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
> > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
> > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
> > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
> > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
> > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
> > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
> > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
> > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
> > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
> > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
> > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
> > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
> > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
> > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
> > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
> > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
> > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
> > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
> > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
> > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
> > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
> > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
> > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
> > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
> > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
> > the truth or will figure it out.
>
> Rowan.
>

Lady Rowan

Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I m talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory,

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, Oct 5, 2012

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Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I'm talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory, which have nothing to do with JZ Knight's 'religion' and to me, very disturbing teaching if you see all of it. I just find it very interesting. Thanks for sharing. R

Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would
happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too
only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

Non ; )

--- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:>> Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thoughtÂ I could find in any certain group or individuals who would haveÂ any kind of answer, but came up short,Â feel the same toward any specific religion or following.Â About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it
fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book beingÂ The Dancing Wu Li MastersÂ (for lay people like me),Â but again always hungered for more.Â Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but IÂ got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind> around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.Â But I do like the fact that scienceÂ has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me)
way.Â Â It's awesome.Â RowanÂ Â > > > > ________________________________> From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>> To: mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:> > > Â > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,> As far as my religious views...> well, I can't even say I'm a pagan. > I don't believe in any religion. > In some ways I'm both theist > and deist, thus, I'm neither> agnostic or atheist. I do believe> that a deity or deities of some> sort exist or existed and
they> began or seeded the universes.> > And, (IMO) I believe that there > is some sort of "intervention."> This is merely one reason as > to why "spiritual/religious"> experiences i.e. miracles were > explained. People will naturally > imagine/create, via the mind,> all sorts of things. Religions > have simply used these events/> experiences to reenforce their> hold upon people. Still, IMO,> there are unexplainable mysterious > non-religious connections.> We can even call this a Soul > to Soul connection linked to> an overall network (Over-Soul> i.e. Spirit).> > Thus, I do believe that there > is a divine harmony of "spirit," > whereby, people can experience> and/or tap into this "divine"> (or not) mental-energy source. > IMO We are all "plugged" into > this network
by various ways > and means and at various> levels (not planes). > > There are many variables. > It could be that this "Source" > is a mental and DNA link > that expands as we open > up certain areas of the mind. > Thus, our potential is enabled > more and more as we naturally > use our curiosity to explore > and expand via technology > and new thought patterns. > It's obvious, to me, that > every individual is at their > own unique stage of evolution.> > Group religions create a plateau> and will merely close off and > stunt potential growth/expansion > of awareness for individuals.> This is why all religions will> use and rely upon "belief" and > "faith" to reenforce their religious> foundation. Klemp has done > the same with Eckankar.> >
********************************> > When I was an EK leader I would> go out of my way to talk to people> individually, especially, after the > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I> would even encourage the cleric> and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk > to the newbies whether EKists > or non-EKists instead of gathering > in groups with their friends. > > I tried to give people what they> were seeking but via of the EK> teachings. Still, there's a lot of> subjectivity. Unfortunately, the> Guidelines and EK Dogma does> tend to limit what one is supposed > to share. And, it was difficult > and somewhat frustrating to > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief > with people who had not read > of or understood (been suckered > into) that special (pretend) > relationship with the Inner > Mahanta. This is
where one> develops a codependent > relationship with an imaginary> being who is, actually, ones > own "inner" self. > > Anyway, I did greet, listen to > and welcome-in those EKists > who didn't show up often at > EK events and those non-EKists > who were curious about Eckankar> and seeing what "ECKists" looked> like. > > However, regardless of one's > sincerity and confidence of > belief, discussions of the "Divine" > are still very subjective, and > uniquely personal. Therefore> I'm sure that everyone on this> site (ESA) has a different and> unique view, as well as, unique> and private "spiritual" experiences > that have led us to where we > are now... wherever that is! > I'm sure that it's still in flux > as we continue to explore > within our own semi-established
> beliefs.> > Prometheus > > "Lady" wrote:> Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the> mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the> group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY> boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that> introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted> to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I> just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who> became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,> but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I> was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like> that. But, her life
was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I> wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to> live it.> > etznab wrote:> >> > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by> > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly> > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity> > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"> >> > ***> >> > That's ironic. Here's why.> >> > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in> > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:> >> > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you> > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they> > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp
His meaning.> > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once> > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."> >> > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated> > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:> >> > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,> > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was> > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not> > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,> > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."> >> >> > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in> > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":> >> > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal
(sic) involved here is: `We> > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another> > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,> > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited> > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by> > Divine Grace.'"> >> > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way> > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":> >> > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and> > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,> > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'> > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,> > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by
the> > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine> > Grace.'"> >> > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html> >> > OK. You'll love this next one :)> >> > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his> > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did> > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,> > who might have commanded any army Ã¢â‚¬" so great was his mental energy Ã¢â‚¬"> > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry> > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the> > splendors of Rome. [....]"> >>
> Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.> > 432, 2nd paragraph.> >> http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt> >> >> > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his> > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did> > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar> > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,> > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order> > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his> > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"> >> > Based on: Letters to Gail,
Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),> > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;> > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd> > paragraph.> >> > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.> > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.> >> > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for> > corresponding quotes).> >> > TKTE - p. 40> >> >> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\> Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1> >> > PTP p. 21> >> >> http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\> th> >> > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck> > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also> > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's> > version.> >> > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By> > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier> > text.> >> >> prometheus wrote:> > Hello All,> > Thanks for sharing and> > bringing up this subject.> > Many H.I.s, unfortunately> > for them, feel rather aloof> > and spiritually advanced> > due to the "number" on> > their EK membership cards.>
>> > They are deluded enough> > to think that this number> > is an indication of Higher> > Con because the liar Twitchell> > said it was in order to> > sell more memberships> > and materials. Klemp> > continues the lie!> >> > The biggest argument for> > these deluded people are> > the few stories told of Twit,> > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were> > seen somewhere on the> > streets, etc. or in a dream> > before these newbies saw> > their pictures and were> > told that these were EK> > "Masters."> >> > Klemp has even revamped> > people's experiences of having> > seen Jesus by having Ekists> > show them pics of Gopal Das,> > whereby, they suddenly realized> > that it wasn't Jesus after all.> >
It was a mistake in identity> > and was actually Gopal Das> > whom they saw!> >> > The truth is most H.I.s have> > little to no actual spiritual> > experiences or dreams and> > they grab at straws. The> > amount of experiences are> > no more than any other group> > that focuses upon mental> > techniques during meditation> > or before going to sleep.> >> > As with all religions it is> > a matter of faith and belief> > and Klemp has even mentioned> > that was this was the real> > key to Eckankar.> >> > I remember once that Klemp> > told 4th initiates to hang out> > with 5ths and 6ths as a way> > to share in their consciousness> > and prepare for their 5th. One> > person I knew quit hanging> > out
with her non-H.I. friends> > and even looked down her nose> > at lower initiates (like herself).> >> > Basically, as it is within any> > hierarchy, the long timers> > want to see the newbies go> > through the same amount> > of crap they had to go through.> > It's jealously and envy.> >> > These H.I.s don't know anymore> > about spiritual matters than> > the next person because it's> > all subjective.> >> > Basically, old outdated techniques> > like focusing upon the Third-> > Eye versus the Crown chakra> > will never be changed even> > though an older EK discourse> > uses the Crown Chakra technique.> >> > Other than that it's all about> > selling and supporting Klemp's> > ego and the EK Organization>
> which is Klemp's inherited> > vocation and spiritual con.> >> > Thus, the survival of the EK> > Org. and support of Klemp's> > second rate books will continue> > to be the central focus of Eckankar> >> > Prometheus> >> > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:> > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did> > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates> > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid> > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also> > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new> > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was> > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was> > kind of like
as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences> > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.> >> > Lady wrote:> >> > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is> > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for> > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.> > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra> > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were> > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but> > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling> > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would> > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and> > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't
know much more> > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every> > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!> > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,> > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite> > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the> > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I> > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is> > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like> > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around> > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone> > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the> > doctors come in with surgical
masks on and tell her they did their> > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly> > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have> > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in> > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know> > the truth or will figure it out. > > Rowan.>

prometheus_973

Hello Non eckchains, I ll have to admit that I didn t like What the Bleep. I know it had a big Canadian following like Adam Dreamhealer who, btw, also used

Message 11 of 11
, Oct 11, 2012

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Hello Non eckchains,
I'll have to admit that
I didn't like "What the Bleep."
I know it had a big Canadian
following like Adam Dreamhealer
who, btw, also used the
Quantum whatever speak.
Dreamhealer is a young
con artist whose father, mother,
and sister were all part of
the con. Adam had a ghost
writer co-author and do his
first book. Have you ever heard
the New Age term "organic"
being used to describe all
sorts of things. It's like with
"quantum." All of these people
are looking for a following
and to use the right "hook"
depending upon their audience
of perspective suckers... like
with Eckankar.

Prometheus

"Non" eckchains wrote:
Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with
Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very
Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum
physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call
Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the
micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics,
depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking
across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social
animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are
there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of
exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a
gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy
animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive
and change into a hunter or prey....

I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed
real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it.
We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or
just is what it is.

We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of
overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we
have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another
dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality
and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too
carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes
so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or
later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last
legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the
pretentious fake promises.

>
> Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I

thoughtÂ I could find in any certain group or individuals who would haveÂ any
kind of answer, but came up short,Â feel the same toward any specific religion
or following.Â About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What
The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it
fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically
the same concepts, my fav book beingÂ The Dancing Wu Li MastersÂ (for lay people
like me),Â but again always hungered for more.Â Another fav is Brian Greene's
The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string
theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for
this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but IÂ got
the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and
still have a hard time wrapping my mind

> around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most

High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate
any of it, as it is so rich.Â But I do like the fact that scienceÂ has
acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to
me) way.Â Â It's awesome.Â RowanÂ Â

>
>
> Â
> Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
> As far as my religious views...
> well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
> I don't believe in any religion.
> In some ways I'm both theist
> and deist, thus, I'm neither
> agnostic or atheist. I do believe
> that a deity or deities of some
> sort exist or existed and they
> began or seeded the universes.
>
> And, (IMO) I believe that there
> is some sort of "intervention."
> This is merely one reason as
> to why "spiritual/religious"
> experiences i.e. miracles were
> explained. People will naturally
> imagine/create, via the mind,
> all sorts of things. Religions
> have simply used these events/
> experiences to reenforce their
> hold upon people. Still, IMO,
> there are unexplainable mysterious
> non-religious connections.
> We can even call this a Soul
> to Soul connection linked to
> an overall network (Over-Soul
> i.e. Spirit).
>
> Thus, I do believe that there
> is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
> whereby, people can experience
> and/or tap into this "divine"
> (or not) mental-energy source.
> IMO We are all "plugged" into
> this network by various ways
> and means and at various
> levels (not planes).
>
> There are many variables.
> It could be that this "Source"
> is a mental and DNA link
> that expands as we open
> up certain areas of the mind.
> Thus, our potential is enabled
> more and more as we naturally
> use our curiosity to explore
> and expand via technology
> and new thought patterns.
> It's obvious, to me, that
> every individual is at their
> own unique stage of evolution.
>
> Group religions create a plateau
> and will merely close off and
> stunt potential growth/expansion
> of awareness for individuals.
> This is why all religions will
> use and rely upon "belief" and
> "faith" to reenforce their religious
> foundation. Klemp has done
> the same with Eckankar.
>
> ********************************
>
> When I was an EK leader I would
> go out of my way to talk to people
> individually, especially, after the
> EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
> would even encourage the cleric
> and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
> to the newbies whether EKists
> or non-EKists instead of gathering
> in groups with their friends.
>
> I tried to give people what they
> were seeking but via of the EK
> teachings. Still, there's a lot of
> subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
> Guidelines and EK Dogma does
> tend to limit what one is supposed
> to share. And, it was difficult
> and somewhat frustrating to
> discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
> with people who had not read
> of or understood (been suckered
> into) that special (pretend)
> relationship with the Inner
> Mahanta. This is where one
> develops a codependent
> relationship with an imaginary
> being who is, actually, ones
> own "inner" self.
>
> Anyway, I did greet, listen to
> and welcome-in those EKists
> who didn't show up often at
> EK events and those non-EKists
> who were curious about Eckankar
> and seeing what "ECKists" looked
> like.
>
> However, regardless of one's
> sincerity and confidence of
> belief, discussions of the "Divine"
> are still very subjective, and
> uniquely personal. Therefore
> I'm sure that everyone on this
> site (ESA) has a different and
> unique view, as well as, unique
> and private "spiritual" experiences
> that have led us to where we
> are now... wherever that is!
> I'm sure that it's still in flux
> as we continue to explore
> within our own semi-established
> beliefs.
>
> Prometheus

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