The typical American Citizen has and is railing against the smokescreen of political correctness and multiculturalism. The numbers reflect that and they are being rejected. I hope to see public policy in the future that systematically dismantles politically correct laws and policies that do nothing but confer special preferential treatment.

The birth certificate vital records bureau will have a surge in requests. The downside to the DemonRats is that their Voter Fraud racquet will run afoul of those same "Documents". So the media will/has begun to put on a full Propaganda Big Lie smear of all common sense solutions that require Documents.

There is no question that this law survives strict scrutiny as it is currently understood. This law is narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest. How could anyone disagree with that?

To stick to the topic, I think that people want to have a wall on the border and then and only then discuss the correct levels and types of immigration. Things are boiling over because the economy is absolutely awful.

"Fully 73% say they approve of requiring people to produce documents verifying their legal status if police ask for them...while 62% approve of allowing police to question people they think may be in the country illegally."

The set of people required to produce documents must be a subset of the people questioned, so this poll indicates that 11% are very confused.

People didn't want "comprehensive reform," which they correctly understood to be the post-lawbreaking legalization of illegal immigrants, even in the very best economic possibly ever (~1981 to ~2007). They certainly aren't going to favor it under the new normal.

As I have stated here, I am pretty radically pro-immigration. Just because the government is slow and arbitrary and you don't have some document is no reason to arrest you. But I hold much, much more dear the right for people to govern themselves at a real, meaningful level.

i wonder how many people who answered with approval are assuming they'd never be asked to provide such documents.

if we all had national ID cards i think this may be a bit less of an issue; but if I were the person who had to be consistently asked for my papers by suspicious police, that would get old really fast. I suppose if you pretty much stay in the same part of town all the time the police would get to know you ... but still, lets be clear, this sort of requirement would lead primarily to questioning people who are non-white ...

I think that if individual consumers in the 73% pitch in we can really turn the tide.

I simply ask all my contractors (lawn, repair, roof, car, medical, etc) if they have made sure that all their employees have the legal right to work in the US. Most are startled, all the ones who have done work for me have answered yes.

The VW dealer refused to answer, so I don't take my car there anymore. It's cost them at least $2K - hey it's a VW!

If this was a common practice we could help drive out even more of the illegal aliens.

Does hitting a problem high and low count for an Anlinsky "hit them back twice as hard" award?

AC hits a great point. How many of you people offering up elitist bitching about this law live in Arizona? What, exactly, gives you the right to decide how Arizona residents should live? Please provide citations.

Drill -- I'm pretty sure you have to be part of the nuclear family of an immigrant to have any hope of reunification. There's quite a bit to be said for nuclear families, especially if the problem is -- as it seems to be -- young, single men involved in criminal activities.

Also, there's something to be said for the courage it takes to travel through the badlands of Mexico and cross a lightly guarded but still guarded border with pretty much just the shirt on your back. That takes guts and a certain kind of dynamism and independent spirit.

But these are quibbles. It's a tough issue. An incredibly, incredibly tough issue.

When my mother immigrated, it took over a year to get permission. She had to take two trips, each taking three days round trip, to the American Embassy for interviews. Her sponsor, a relative she had never met, was required to post a bond guaranteeing that she would never become a draw on government resources. She was delayed so they could make sure that the her clerical union weren't a bunch of commies. (I'm glad for this, because I'd hate for my mom to be a goddam commie.) She was required, after she arrived, to carry on her person proof of her immigrations status. Still she came, uncomplaining, because she spent the years 1940-45 living under the thumb of real Nazis.

100% would approve of making the police (1) have a warrant and (2) knock and wait for a peaceful resolution if at all possible rather than (3) have no-knock or knock-but-charge-in-immediately-and-shoot-their-dogs like we have now.

I'm pretty liberal on immigration and I live in AZ. With that being said

-clearly SB 1070 has majority Arizonan and (not that it matters) US support-I couldn't fine the poll but I do recall a recent poll that confirmed majority support for the bill AND concern that it will lead to "discrimination" against hispanics. I believe there is a certain ambivalence among Americans about immigration. IMHO we like "security", "Law abiding" and we like the "coming to America to pursue your dream" narrative-the constitutionality will obviously be determined in the not to distant future.

7M, for reference, my wife works for USCIS, the smiley faced, raise your right hand folks, as opposed to the "but both hands on the wall and spread'em MF!" guys in USICE.

here are some of the categories that get preference right now.

For information about the categories below, see links to the left under “Other Ways to Get a Green Card.”

Amerasian Child of a U.S. CitizenAmerican Indian Born in CanadaArmed Forces MemberCuban Native or CitizenDiversity Immigrant Visa ProgramHaitian RefugeeIndochinese Parole Adjustment ActInformant (S Nonimmigrant) Lautenberg ParoleeLegal Immigration Family Equity (LIFE) ActPerson Born to Foreign Diplomat in United StatesRegistrySection 13 (Diplomat)Special Immigrant JuvenileVictim of Criminal Activity (U Nonimmigrant)Victim of Trafficking (T Nonimmigrant)For information about the special categories below, see under the “Family,” Working in the U.S.” and “Humanitarian” links to the right.

Nicaraguan and Central American Relief Act (NACARA)Green Cards Through Special Categories of Jobs

Althouse says: I wonder what those percentages would be if the President and the political elite had not pressured us to think the Arizona law was outrageously racist.

Me, I wonder what those percentages would be if I could have found anyone else to help me discredit those who lied about the bill and the law; see my posts about Arizona. Compare that to what others (besides Byron York and a few others) did.

According to polls most Mexican-Americans here legally support this bill, along with a growing majority of all Americans.

The Demos used to be able to control any debate with the help of the establishment Media, but that died with talk radio, FNC, and the blogosphere. The Demos demagogued an issue once too often and people have finally gotten wise to their tricks, which is why they're so hot to control the internet.

Most of the original immigrants (Irish, German, etc.) had no process except step ashore, but the real issue today is the state of lawlessness on the border and the national security implications (10% of all illegals stopped at the border are Middle Eastern). This is why we have laws on this and why they need to be enforced.

Drill -- I was a consular officer. Getting many of those visas takes, literally, years.

It's interesting to consider this issue in the mind of a person who wishes to emigrate. It's also interesting to think of issue from the perspective of common law, which is, essentially, that the law should be what reasonable people would do or are already doing.

Much as I like the idea of annoying the Politically Correct, I'm not crazy about the authorities being able to stop anyone walking by and demanding papers. Too much abuse potential.

First of all....they can't just randomly stop people for no good reason. The stopee, must be doing something that they can legally be detained or questioned about.

It isn't meant to catch people casually strolling through the mall or eating icecream. That is a liberal bald faced lie and evidently you fell for it.

Will there be abuse. OF course there will be some, just as there is abuse in current traffic stops. The police will by and large be compliant in following the law but there will always be a few bad apples.

My husband has been stopped 2 times and myself 1 time for 'trailer ball' infractions. The ball is obscuring a number on the license plate. We are stopped because that vehicle is old and beat up looking and we forgot to remove the ball after going to the dump. Are we illegals in the country...NOPE. Did we have to show our ID and insurance coverage YES. Every freaking time Boo hoo. I have to carry my legal identification papers with me.

Most Americans realize that we are part of a regulated society and have to constantly prove our identity for all sorts of mundane things.

Why should people who are ILLEGALLY in the country and already breaking the law, NOT have to show ID when they are stopped for breaking the law. Yes.....even for stupid things like trailer ball infractions.

but still, lets be clear, this sort of requirement would lead primarily to questioning people who are non-white ...

And so......?? So freaking what.

95% of illegal aliens ILLEGAL ALIENS are from Mexico.

The police are supposed to try to catch those who are breaking the law.

I suppose if a Chinese midget was the suspect in a bank robbery you would object if the police actually looked for Chinese midgets? Maybe they should avoid 'profiling' and look for tall Swedish blonds.

I have to carry ID all the time.

What is the big effing deal. If you are legally in the country, carry your ID, since it is ALREADY the law. If you aren't legally in the country you are a criminal. Period.

So far that's what I'm seeing. Drivers' licenses for which birth certificates or passports must be produced.

I'm not sure I understand your points.

Americans already have a national ID card. It's their Social Security card. What's wrong with adding the holder's photo, description and home address?

I have lived in the state in which I was born for 61 years, and held a driver's license in that same state for the past 45 years.

At this year's renewal I was asked to produce my birth certificate in order to comply with a recently-passed state law. As an alternative, I could produce a current passport. I did. What possible problem does this simple act cause, other than for one who is here in violation of state and federal laws?

mesquito said...When my mother immigrated, it took over a year to get permission. She had to take two trips, each taking three days round trip, to the American Embassy for interviews. Her sponsor, a relative she had never met, was required to post a bond guaranteeing that she would never become a draw on government resources. She was delayed so they could make sure that the her clerical union weren't a bunch of commies. (I'm glad for this, because I'd hate for my mom to be a goddam commie.) She was required, after she arrived, to carry on her person proof of her immigrations status. Still she came, uncomplaining, because she spent the years 1940-45 living under the thumb of real Nazis.

Oh, and illegal immigrants REALLY piss her off.

I met my wife in college 27 years ago. She was an exchange student. When we married, we had to make two trips to be interviewed by Immigration. We had to sign a lot of papers saying, among other things, that if we ever went on any form of public assistance, she would be deported. Five years after we were married, she became a US citizen.

She hates illegal immigrants, too. They make all of the immigrants who played by the rules look like chumps. I don't know what happened to the prohibition against welfare while an immigrant. Today, it seems to be "Come to America and get free stuff."

The American Left really could care less about the plight of illegal aliens/immigrants in this country. The American Left simply wants the votes of those sympathetic to the plight of illegal aliens/immigrants in this country.

My lesbian sister's Austalian partner with mad computer programming skills has been trying to become a citizen for a couple of years now (student visas). Has been forced to return to The Land Down Under at least one time that I can recall. She keeps trying to do it right, yet legal immigration seems to be a real bitch.

I keep telling her that since she lives in Texas now she should just drive down south and swim over.

(Incidentally, I am also a child of legal immigrants who really dislike illegal immigration, and I probably look a lot like I might be an immigrant, but I was born here. And I always carry my driver's license.)

If you were a young Mexican thinking about going to the U.S. and considering the stories you had heard about the goings on in that country with regard to illegal immigration by Mexicans, what conclusions would you come to?

So far that's what I'm seeing. Drivers' licenses for which birth certificates or passports must be produced.

I'm not sure I understand your points.

Americans already have a national ID card. It's their Social Security card. What's wrong with adding the holder's photo, description and home address?

Half correct. The SSN is Americans' national ID number and has been for 75 years, but the card can't be used for ID (the old ones said so), that's why driver's licenses are used.

Some states put the SSN on the license, but that's led to identity theft (as my sister-in-law could tell you). Since most Americans can flash their license and the SSN can be verified against that, any time somebody wants to see your license, just imagine Werner Klemperer saying, "May I zee your papers, mein Herr?".

Democrats have been trying to have a national ID card for years. And their various leftists hangers-on like the ones here have been complaining that it is Orwellian. Therefore, since it's Orwellian, the Democrats who are pushing a national ID card cannot be pushing a national ID card because they are Democrats.

Conclusion: it must be Republicans pushing the national ID card that Democrats are pushing.

I am more concerned that AG Eric Holder wants to weaken or perhaps eliminate Miranda rights for terrorists.

All that would remain would be for the government to revise the description of "terrorist" to be anyone who voices an anti-government opinion. Detained, arrested and locked up with no Miranda protections.

"i wonder how many people who answered with approval are assuming they'd never be asked to provide such documents."

You've never been stopped by the cops, have you.

If you ever in your life had been, not only would you be asked to provide documents, your car would require documents. In fact, the cops can stop you because they believe your car doesn't have up to date documents even if you've done nothing wrong at all.

The more you righties try, the more like the Europeans we become. National ID cards, that's what will come next. Carry your passports with you, buddy, so you can prove that you are an American Citizen. What next, yellow stars on our clothes. You say Obama is a Nazi. Pish tosh. Arizona will become pre WWII Germany any day.Ignoramus's.

How many citizens if stopped can produce documents showing that you are a citizen? In Arizona drivers license isn't enough. You would need either a passport or 2 forms of id with one being a birth certificate. We would be able to cut into illegals if every employer was required to do e-verify. I just went through this and getting the required documents from the white tea party people was like pulling teeth. I say make it the law of the land and go with a national id card. The right wants control of the populous but are yet unwilling to do what should have been done after 911, institute a national id. Getting on a plane is a joke. Who at the counter knows what all 50 state drivers licenses look like? I got on a plane with a colleague who had a newer license and I had the old one. Being second I got stopped. I told the TSA guy how do you know that hers wasn't fake? Bottom line is that if you want to target illegals, go after the employers and get national id.

A J...It is very the existence of citizenship documents on election day that has our Party of Election Thieves sweating blood over a seeming non issue. But thankfully the TeaPartiers have stopped listening to the cons upon cons coming out of the mouths of the GOP and the Dems politicians alike. The simple truth is setting us free, very, very fast. Go Arizona. Your war Memorial was already established on 12/7/1941, but this time we will not let the enemy in the White House sink you!

"Half correct. The SSN is Americans' national ID number and has been for 75 years, but the card can't be used for ID (the old ones said so), that's why driver's licenses are used.

DHS and the Real ID act established that a Social Security Card is an acceptable form of secondary ID when applying for things like a driver's license or military ID.

When I retired from the Marines in '08 and went to get my retired ID card, I looked down the accepted forms of identification list and whipped out my SSC. Same thing when I moved to FL and applied for a license.

FYO: fake drivers liscenses are so easy to get now, that there is a new private company offering a prescreening service that can verify all drivers liscenses to their holders to see that they are issued to legitiment drivers. Discuss that service.

"So you go out there, and you unscrew the ball and remove it from blocking the license plate. Period. That's the law. You don't have the cops waste taxpayer money, not once, but three times, pulling over you and hubby and reminding ya, "Hey white lady. The law applies to you too." Don't be forgetful when returning from the dump. Follow the Law. You don't like it? There's the exit..."

Geez, Mary. I thought it was pretty obvious that the ball hitch was an excuse to pull over an old beater pick-up truck that the cops think is carrying illegals, or probably isn't registered or some other thing. If they remove the hitch the excuse will change, that is all.

Vicky missed the point: "Synova, anyone with the money can get a license and registration for the car. 18 year old's get phoney licenses in MacArthur Park in LA for $30.00 that pass the muster with cops all over the US."

And you're still going to be asked to produce ID, just. like. you. always. have.

Do you get the point now? No three or more syllable words were used in explaining this painfully simple point t.hat seems to elude you.

"Synova, anyone with the money can get a license and registration for the car. 18 year old's get phoney licenses in MacArthur Park in LA for $30.00 that pass the muster with cops all over the US."

Well then, what's the problem?

The fact is that everyone, not just Hispanics, get asked for "papers" and are expected to carry "papers" and present them on request to police. Are you trying to tell me (or anyone else) that this isn't true?

The availability of fake "papers" is irrelevant to whether or not they must be presented, but since you say they are so easy to get, what is the big difficulty here?

Also in the world of authentication, Lawyers have traditionally demanded the Corporate Resolution at a sale or loan closing. That is only one more piece of paper signed by the same people stating that they authorise themselves to sign the other documents. Occasionally it has a real purpose when a close Corporation has more known owners than can come to the closing. So what is it's real purpose? Simply it smokes out the Sellers who have faked corporate status by baffling them with the simple request. There is no bigger mess than title coming out of or into an assumed Corporate name when the Corporation never has had existence. Lawyers deal with stupid people all the time. Think of this and the fresh over the border immigrant asked for something.

The Border Patrol's Tucson sector, the busiest in the nation, logged 241,673 apprehensions last fiscal year. In comparison, federal agents in Arizona tracked down and arrested 27 people who had overstayed their visas...Visa violators represent nearly half of the 11 million illegal immigrants in the country...

"No G.May it is obvious that you righties want us to be like the Europeans. Having to prove our citizenship at every opportunity. ew "

I agree. Ew.

But what are places like Arizona supposed to do if the Feds don't control the border? Did you happen to see the You Tube video that the governor of Arizona put out? This isn't about fussing over jobs or a drain on taxes, it's about crime; about murders and kidnappings. The level of violence, murders and kidnappings on the Mexican side of the US border are at a scale that defies comprehension to our civilized sensibilities.

Do we ignore that and ask cops to look the other way so that the undocumented are not harassed?

It really makes a lot of sense for the states to take on ordinary immigration violations committed by normal, ordinary people who really just want a better life so that the federal government can concentrate its resources on terrorists and drug smugglers.

The outrage here seems to me to be totally on auto-pilot. These people are not thinking. They are just reacting shrilly.

FLS got on my case a week or so ago because I said that I was always asked to produce ID when voting. I've voted in 4 different states and this has always been the case. I don't think it's at all unusual or unreasonable.

Trooper - that may have been the golden age of heavyweight boxing. There were a lot of capable contenders to battle Ali and Frazier. Chuvalo was one and I remember Ernie Terrell and who was the guy from S. America?

Then there were the cannon fodder including Bayonn Bleeder and Jerry Quarry.

Mary -- I think the point here is that cops can always find a reason to pull you over.

Once, this girl and I were headed back to Chicago from Oak Park after teaching a class. She was driving her old, beat up tri-color Volvo and she decided to take the surface roads, which go through some sketchy neighborhoods.

Sure enough, the cops pulled us over because two young white people in a car like that in that neighborhood had to be buying drugs. The driver asked why we were pulled over and it was "illegal lane change."

The cops searched the car high and low for a really long time and they were sorely disappointed.

Do you think it's possible that 73% favor showing docs to verify legal status to police in light of the fact that they have been conditioned by the Nanny State to show docs to drug store clerks, liquor store clerks, the guys at Best Buy, the folks at TSA, etc. etc. etc. ? They reap what they sowed.

You have to show ID to buy liquor if you're under 40. You have to show ID to buy sudafed. You have to show ID to buy cigarettes at a convenience store. You have to show ID at the doc's office to "protect patients from insurance fraud." You have to show ID to get on an airplane. You might have to to get on a train. You have to show ID to purchase a car even in cash. And if you're not an illegal, "license and registration" are required when the cops pull you over.

People should be outraged about the above. But they've long since past outrage. So now, it's just that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

There seem to only be two places that the Left disapproves of ID:

in AZ if you're trying to stop suspected criminals, and in the ballot box.

... and, after I've been pulled over by a cop and shown him/her my driver's license, the next thing I show him is my concealed weapons carry permit. The next thing you know, I'm deemed to be a pretty generally law abiding guy, and I'm on my way quickly. Funny how that happens

Looked at sublets on Willy Street and Atwood. They were cheap and all that but I don't know? Will I survive for 6 months? Six months in Madison and 6 months in Bangalore and then likely back to NYC or Boston-not in the city though because I will be 40 in three months and am now officially to old to be a "city girl". It's all about the suburbs for me or even small town-the small town needs to be fab though, with plenty of take out options and a fab gym. Is that impossible to find?

Getting off the plane and being greeted by hot ethnic baggage guys and taxi drivers was nice though. Not that I would touch them because I am married I just like to know they are around.

GMay -- A long time ago, there was a Mary here who would from time to time go ballistic on Althouse. Sometimes she was normal, if a little trollish. Other times, insane and incoherent.

Althouse had some kind of back story with her. I think that Mary may have been a student of Althouse's at one time. Whatever the case, Althouse told her to leave and she would, but she would come back. So Althouse just started deleting her posts without any ado.

Drive from Waunakee to Madison at 9:00 and you are the only person on the road. Fucking scary.

My sister lives in a fab country home in Mazomanie and went on a "Mule" ride through the 80 acre forest on her land. It was fab. Also went three wheeling with my dad at the farm.

My dad has many properties. A hunting lodge in Bruce, Wisconsin. A hunting cabin in Bozeman Montana. A condo in Surprise Arizona. A lake home by Wisconsin Dells. A farm in Lodi Wisconsin and a home in Waunakee Wisconsin. As well as an apartment complex in Middleton that has 32 units. I told him he should rent out the second homes in order to make some money. He is reluctant but I think that it what we will do.

Also, say Cranes, White Tail Deer, Bald Eagle in Sauk, Turkeys etc.

Do you know my my dad owns my mom's farm in Lodi? My mom grew up there and when she was young they had no indoor toilet. Also, many of my parents friends, who are now incredibly rich farmers in Waunakee, have no high school education. My dad said they didn't go to school, they went to work on the farm instead.

So really I am a small town girl who has experienced the big city. How will the transition to the small town be for this big city girl?

lets be clear, this sort of requirement would lead primarily to questioning people who are non-white

Assuming you consider Hispanics "non-white", yes. But only around 6% of illegal immigrants are "white" under that definition. It is awfully hard to avoid "primarily questioning people who are non-white" when 96% of the criminals in question are non-white.

Titus -- The transition will go terrible. I found New York a little too dramatic both times I lived there but Chicago is about as laidback and rustic as I could possibly stomach now for any length of time.

Get back to Chelsea or come here. Maybe Boston or the Bay Area or some big city abroad. That's my advice.

How many citizens if stopped can produce documents showing that you are a citizen? In Arizona drivers license isn't enough.

From the text of the law in question:

A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

How many citizens if stopped can produce documents showing that you are a citizen? In Arizona drivers license isn't enough. You would need either a passport or 2 forms of id with one being a birth certificate.

Actually, in AZ, an AZ driver's license is enough, as well as other state IDs that require proof of a legal right to be here to be issued. Ditto for driver's licenses from states that also require such.

Read the new law.

Unfortunately, that does not include California driver's licenses, since yes, illegals can, and do acquire them.

Titus -- When I moved here first, my income was cut in half and my quality of life in terms of being able to rent an apartment and just buy stuff tripled. At least.

As long as you live in the right couple of neighborhoods here, Chicago is like a lower-stress version of Manhattan where you can afford a pretty nice place on a decent salary. I can't recommend it highly enough.

I should have finished the thread before responding. Revenant was good enough to provide the relevant section of the new law.

Bringing this all together, this is really not any more onerous for the citizens and legal residents of Arizona than buying liquor, cigarettes, or Sudafed. They show their Arizona driver's license, and are done.

Yes, it is worse for those who are here illegally, just as it is for those who try to buy booze when they are underage.

I should also note that in another discussion on another blog, someone living on the border pointed out that the cops there, as well as the people living there, could pick out very recent immigrants, mostly illegal, at 100 feet. (And in this case, those picking them out were almost entirely Hispanic). They do this by dress, mannerisms, and even maybe height. And then, if there is any doubt, when they talk to them, it becomes obvious - language.

As a permanent resident, it is your responsibility to:• Obey all federal, state, and local laws.• Pay federal, state, and local income taxes.• Register with the Selective Service (U.S. ArmedForces), if you are a male between ages 18 and 26.See page 11 for instructions.• Maintain your immigration status.• Carry proof of your permanent resident status at all times.• Change your address online or provide it in writingto the Department of Homeland Security DHS) within 10 days of each time you move. See page 12 for instructions.

Quoted from Welcome to the United States a Guide for new Immigrants, an official publication of the US Citizenship and Immigration Services, at page 8.

Have you ever been abroad? Have you ever been to a country that requires a visa? If you have, did you keep that visa close to you at all times? If you haven't, what do you think you'd do with your visa if you were, say, in Vietnam? If the police stopped you and you couldn't produce evidence that you were in the country legally, what do you suppose would happen? Why?

And don't give me any shit about how the United States is somehow exempt from protecting its borders because we are somehow better than Vietnam.

I might also ad that in Arizona, any govt issued document, such as a drivers license, which presumes citizenship/legal status, must be accepted by the police as proof of legal status.

A side note: In my state, PR, we have a highly secure, govt issued, voter ID card. This, along with other measures, assures that we pretty much have zero voter fraud or even accusations thereof in our elections.

Originally it was illegal for anyone to accept it as ID for any purpose other than voting related. That has been relaxed and now I can use it for ID, for cashing a check, for example. I can't be asked to produce it in any non-electoral matter.

Should we be outraged if a police man asks us for our license and registration when pulling us over? Is there really that big a difference? "Your papers please! Heil Hitler". Somehow the majority of people in this country can turn over said papers as needed and then go about their business and get on with life. As Dust Bunny said, police can't willy nilly demand you to show your papers willy nilly. They need cause to pull you over in the first place. And what about legal immigrants with green cards, or who are going through the process of becoming citizens. Are they not required to carry around identification to show that in fact they are legal? Are people on student visas somehow not required to show their visa, abasent other id, if they are pulled over. Why should illegals somehow be exempt from producing identification like everyone else.Ah yes, racism.

I live in Arizona and I'd just like to point out that this law does NOT give the police the power to arbitrarily stop someone and demand proof of citizenship or legal residence.

What it does do is require police to ascertain the legal status of someone they have already stopped for another reason.

So if you're walking down the street, minding your own business, and not doing anything that would cause a police officer to suspect you of a crime, he or she is NOT going to interrogate you about your legal status.

Where this law will usually come into play is during traffic stops. When you get pulled over for speeding, or for some other reason, what do the police ask for?

That's right, your drivers' license.

Legal residents of Arizona carry proof of their status in their wallet. Arizona does not issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens, so anyone with an AZ license is, by definition, not an illegal alien.

AZ does issue licenses to LEGAL immigrants and to people who have green cards or long-term visas. When someone with a green card or a visa gets an AZ license, it expires on the same day as their green card or visa, making it very easy to determine their legal status simply by looking at the date on their license.

AZ licenses normally expire on your 65th birthday, so US citizens are also easy to identify.

There is no gestapo nonsense going on. There are no rights violations in the works. No one is going to be deported because they "look Mexican."

Everything I read about this law is long on condemnation and short on truth. They can't actually talk about the law as it is written because to do so would only encourage American's to support it. So instead they invent straw man arguments to attack.

The leftists who are doing this are going to regret it. The harder they double down on the lies, the more average people figure out that they are being lied to. Their ability to deceive the American people is coming to an end.

"The thought of my Mexican friends and acquaintances being compelled to prove their citizenship is a total pisser."

Why, exactly? Do you think when they're stopped by police for running stop signs they shouldn't be required to produce their driver's license and registration and proof of insurance?

Why should illegal aliens not have to produce their "papers" when average Americans are required to do it all the time?

Do you think illegal aliens should be allowed to cash checks at banks without having to prove their identity?

Do you think illegal alien minors should be able to waltz into bars without having to prove they are 21 years of age? Why should they be able to do that when Americans can't even do that?

Do you think illegal aliens should be allowed to get federal benefits without actually having to prove they are in our country legally? Americans have to prove their identity when applying for federal benefits. Why should people from Mexico not have to do this?

I appreciate your concerns, Chip, but on examination, they just don't hold up. We don't live in a police state merely because from time-to-time Americans are required to produce a driver's license or birth certificate to establish our identity.

Mexican-Americans, and immigrants here illegally, should face the exact same requirements as law-abiding Americans have to face every day.

The left is losing the immigration debate because their arguments just don't hold much water once you get past the politically-driven faux hysterics of the left.

Shortly, when the left is out of power for good, having lost their good will with the country with their gestapo-like takeover tactics, we're going to reform the country and eliminate 17% unemployment by removing from our country people who are stealing jobs from law-abiding Americans.

It's not the right people fear. And you can see this demonstrated in this poll. It's the left's fascist tendencies that people rightly fear.

And we're setting about unemployment the political eft because these fears have been materialized. People can see actual damage being done to our country by your political party.

The left will start to scream that illegals should just wear yellow stars. They always want to simplify problems, and drag it back to the same evil versus good arguments. I don't see what's wrong with the law, and with following the law. How can we have a community of negotiation and consent when a huge part of the community is here without the majority's consent, and refuses any kind of rational negotiation?

If confronted, they just say, we will murder you, or call you a racist, and thus demonize you. It's impossible to negotiation with such people who immediately turn to terrorism as their first and only line of argument.

I never understood what was wrong with following the established immigration law to begin with. I have yet, to hear one valid reason why millions of people south of the border should be exempt from the immigration laws that Europeans, Africans and Asians are required to follow in order to become citizens.

Someone, anyone, give me one valid reason why poeple from Mexico and Central America should not be required to follow the immigration laws on the books.

I'm simply agog over the potential of a regularly old Waspy New England person, dropping by the local hardware, leaving his wallet and drivers license at home as it is only a mile to the store where he has shopped for a couple decades, doing a rolling stop at the corner, being pulled over and when unable to produce a license is asked for his citizenship papers....or do I see this as a slippery slope that no one else here sees.

I'm simply agog over the potential of a regularly old Waspy New England person, dropping by the local hardware, leaving his wallet and drivers license at home as it is only a mile to the store where he has shopped for a couple decades, doing a rolling stop at the corner, being pulled over and when unable to produce a license is asked for his citizenship papers....or do I see this as a slippery slope that no one else here sees.

What slippery slope? We don't have the AZ law here in flyover Hoosierland but if you're stopped by the po-lice for a moving violation and you're unable to produce a driver's license, the po-liceman has the ah-toritay to haul your waspy ass right down to the po-lice station.

See that's why you have to have a driver's license on your person when you decide to go down to the hardware store (or in your case the CVS to get your Depends). This isn't exactly groundbreaking.

I have often wondered what a Police Officer would do if, pulling me over (and I don't have the dl on me), I just told him (or her) the letter followed by 13-digits.

Well as I esplained to hdhouse, in Indiana, you can get a free ride to the police station if you can't show a driver's license following a traffic stop. Obviously this is discretionary but its not unheard of either. Otherwise, there really isn't a point to have a DL is there?

So tell me, before any of these racist, thuggish, teabagger policies were even dreamed up by our neighborhood commissars, what would have happened to that clearly racist, waspy driver for driving without a license?

HDH, I'm simply agog that you're stretching so hard to reach some sort of psuedo-totalitarian outcome with that absolutely, perfectly, totally dreadful scenario.

Well thats the only way he can make an argument against what is basically, a common sense approach to combatting illegal immigration.

Seriously, the left has to demonize this because they can't provide a valid reason why those crossing the southern border should be exempt from the same immigration laws that Euros, Africans and Asians must follow.

Blake said: "They've actually gotten dumber. They're still hammering on the "jobs Americans won't do" meme. Sorry, guys, there aren't any of those any more..."

Actually there ARE jobs Americans won't do...because unemployment compensation has become nigh on permanent.

Re: Madison Man. Agree about Blue Spoon being the better choice. But Blue Moon will do in a pinch when you don't want to make the additional trek to PdS. I thought about giving Titus some rental leads, but then reconsidered for my own sake.... I'm a fan of low-drama neighbors.

When did Sheriff Arpaio's parents come here from Napoli, as he claimed? When the US border was open to Southern Italians? Or after the Johnson-Reed act of 1924, which limited the ingress of such undesirables, favoring residents of Germany, the British Isles, and Scandinavia.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5078

If so, could the Arpaio parents have been wetbacks, with Arpaio their anchor baby? He was born in 1930, years after the Johnson-Reed quotas were imposed.

Again, clearly illustrating why he chose his handle, former law student writes: "I read an article by a longtime travel writer who said that every other country bans handgun ownership, or so regulates it to make it practically impossible.

If he is accurate, why the hysteria here among the right?"

Hysteria. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

You see, former law student, demanding that the law be enforced and adhered to is not "hysterics", it's called a hallmark of an advanced society.

Try approaching the discussion head on, instead of a crappy oblique approach.

This shows what passive sheep we have become. 50 years ago Americans would have given the raspberry to any suggestion that we would be required to show our papers on request. I wonder how many of those approving of this are also Teepers carrying around guns and wearing "Don't Tread On Me" t-shirts?

Again, clearly illustrating why he chose his handle, former law student writes.....

Louis Tully: Your Honor, ladies and gentleman of the audience, I don't think it's fair to call my clients frauds. Sure, the blackout was a big problem for everybody. I was trapped in an elevator for two hours and I had to make the whole time. But I don't blame them. Because one time, I turned into a dog and they helped me. Thank you.

"The left will start to scream that illegals should just wear yellow stars."

Where do you get such a ridiculous notion? To the extent there is an actual "left" in this country, they will be the first to decry this law outright. They will hardly propose a more offensive way to enforce it.

The founders were smart enough to spell out one freedom that they never wanted government to take away. There was no ID technology at that time to prompt a "freedom from ID" clause.

In our frontier society, people could disappear from their old home town and reappear somewhere else, getting a fresh start, often with a new name. Now that we will all be tracked by satellite and microchip implanted between the shoulderblades, it's hard not to see that we've given up some of our freedoms. YMMV

FLS;Re: Sheriff Joe. Yes, I've thought the same thing especially since in the early 1900's Italian immigrants were viewed much the same as we view Mexican immigrants today. And yes, Sheriff Joe's ancestors came over during that period.

The argument was proposed that we Americans should not mind the loss of a freedom that citizens of other countries do not have. I thought that argument was bullshit -- if I wanted to live in a police state I would move to one -- and illustrated its bullshititude with an analogy.

And for those on the right who see Sheriff Joe as some sort of hero do a google search on his spending and budgeting...The man can spend the money. I mean how many County sheriff departments have a TANK!

"50 years ago, if a policeman asked you for your ID, and you told him to fuck off, you would have been picking your sorry ass up off the pavement. With a walnut size lump on your forehead."

Whereas today you'll be promptly electrocuted. Cops haven't become any less bullies with the passing of time, but Americans have certainly become more compliant.

The draft during WWII is in no way comparable to a law requiring that one must have one's identification on one's person at all times in case a cop might ask to see it. "A child" is what authoritarians call those who object to the intrusive overreach of the authorities.

Don't Asians and Africans cross our southern border? Preventing Middle Eastern terrorists from strolling in from the south has been advanced as justification for securing our southern border.

Do they? It's a logical assumption that they had to fly from Asia and Africa to get to Mexico or Central America who have even stricter entry requirements than we do. That being said, they could simply fly into La Guardia and disappear no? Much easier than to fly into Mexico City and then trudge across the desert.

I mean if you could provide some numbers of substantial illegal immigration by Asians and Africans crossing here from Mexico I might agree with you but alas, I'll just go on the belief you're tossing out another red herring.

Ahhh Robert Cook, the guy who's left of Kucinich and thinks he's a moderate.

What else does one say when the "papers" meme has been so utterly destroyed in one thread? Beating a dead horse? Squeezing blood from a turnip? Missing the point entirely? Lacking a basic understanding of identification requirements that have existed for decades?

Cops haven't become any less bullies with the passing of time, but Americans have certainly become more compliant.

Wow. The amount of crap today is hip-deep. My inlaw's family is full of career cops from all over the country, crossing generations so its apt here. Cops did things, regularly, back then that cops today wouldn't dream of doing in the very literal sense that such brutality wouldn't even occur to them. Because they're better people? No. Because training drills it into them.

I agree with the original assertion that people 50 years ago would certainly get their ire up about having to carry ID. The same way they would get their ire up about seat belts, child safety seats, eating in a restaurant next to a black person...

The world changes and we have to change with it. The only real change I see here is that the Fed has absolutely failed in it's responsibility to enforce the laws on the books. AZ, with surprising public support, is doing what they feel they need to do to avoid problems both immediate and eventual (see California).

"First of all....they can't just randomly stop people for no good reason. The stopee, must be doing something that they can legally be detained or questioned about.

It isn't meant to catch people casually strolling through the mall or eating icecream. That is a liberal bald faced lie and evidently you fell for it."

Please.

Such unwarranted trust in the good intentions of the authorities would be touching if it were not simply stupid and unAmerican. The Constitution and particularly the Bill of Rights is based on the assumption that authorities cannot be trusted to act in good will or with self-restraint, and that they will, if not prohibited, expand and abuse any powers granted to them.

Isn't this what what the Teepers are yelling about? (Rhetorical question: of course not. They've been duped. They should be angry, as all citizens should be, but they are misled as to the source of most of the ills besetting our nation. It is not illegal immigrants or welfare cheats or people who were hoodwinked into taking mortgages to buy homes they could not afford; it is the corporatocracy and their lackeys in Washington who pass laws meant to further enrich the rich and to make serfs of the rest of us.)

Such widespread approval of this law requiring that we show identification if asked illustrates how many of us have already become willing serfs.