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1. Change agile rejoiner to be a ranged skill that procs off of evade. Parry is our lowest avoidance and we are a ranged dps class making agile rejoiner useless in group settings. The heal strength is good but it can't be used at range and that is where we live in groups.

Originally Posted by Waylen

Really out all the things that are broken you feel this should be the top priority?

Love it. It may not be top priority, but still a nice tweak in my opinion. Could even add a focus cost & buff the heal more. (?)

Trumble, Leader of the [URL="http://www.wotwt.shivtr.com/"]Wardens of the White Tree[/URL], Laurelin

Personally I quite like these suggestions esp. the latter re. effects with unused focus. There are some suggestions re. ranged corruption removals too, I like the idea of tying the corruption removal to PS but only when used with full focus.

Anyone have any thoughts on that? MS needs something changing with it anyhow, could tweak up the damage for that keep the half morale gate and put ranegd corruption on PS as above.

Moving corruption removal to pen shot is not a good idea. For starters there are instances that have mechanics where you don't want to be removing corruption which would make bringing a hunter along a bad idea. Secondly that would be unbalancing since a hunter will be able to remove corruption a very rapid clip

Really out all the things that are broken you feel this should be the top priority?

/comprehensionbroken

This really isn't the place to be poking holes in people's opinions or putting words in people's mouths when we should be working together. And no, rather than copy/paste the entire thread of every suggestion mentioned here (in nearly every individual post it's the same stuff), I thought I'd point out his suggestion is very nice and unique, I never even mentioned prioritizing this over anything else, however it is a step towards eventually fixing our class and we need more like this.

Moving corruption removal to pen shot is not a good idea. For starters there are instances that have mechanics where you don't want to be removing corruption which would make bringing a hunter along a bad idea. Secondly that would be unbalancing since a hunter will be able to remove corruption a very rapid clip

Yeah I had forgotten about that you're quite correct that it would be a nightmare in those situations. I'm still in agreement with many others in the thread that we would benefit a lot from a re-work of MercifulShot mechanic , morale gate removal and keep high focus cost or keeping morale gate, base damage boost by 15-20% (the problem being usually PS and BA do more damage) but that still leaving us with no corruption removal in the first 50% of a boss fight which would actually make us quite useful to a group.

This really isn't the place to be poking holes in people's opinions or putting words in people's mouths when we should be working together. And no, rather than copy/paste the entire thread of every suggestion mentioned here (in nearly every individual post it's the same stuff), I thought I'd point out his suggestion is very nice and unique, I never even mentioned prioritizing this over anything else, however it is a step towards eventually fixing our class and we need more like this.

3 Changes

Change of LI class item

Almost every class has one main legendary weapon and one non-usable class item. In my eyes this gives these classes the advantage of focussing on a new stat and not beeing forced to spend their LI points on weapon dps, again.
But the main reasons why I think the hunter needs a legendary quiever is because it gives the opportunity to change the bow chant: breach finder into a bonus stat for the LI-system instead of force them to use that crafted item every 30 minutes. The other 2 bow chants are not that effective since we got finesse btw.
Another would be a little bit more immersion, because it makes sense we wear a quiver for our arrows.
Sure, if you dont want to change all that you can still make a small change and update the one handed LI the same way as the loremaster/mini weapon and give it a static damage value and add another stat. Like i said, it should be something similar to breach finder so these items can be removed from the game.

Agility...

I really enjoy playing the runekeeper because his ability to use his attacks while moving, so thats propably something I wish the hunter could be less restrictive. To be more concrete:
Even this is an attack with induction, I think Barbed arrow should be usable while moving if shot while having the buff from Scourging Blow. But thats just something I realised yesterday, actually, to be honest, my greatest wish would be to be able to move all the time. Even with induction skills. Especially laying traps.

its really hard to only mention the top 3 things...

Better Rain of Arrows

It's not that i dont like the skill, I just think it could be improved by giving it a new mechanic: Let us leftclick the skill and then hover the mouse to the targetarea while showing us visually the impact radius before we leftclick again to instantly shot the arrows. This would allow us to better root and could also be an improvement to some loremaster skills imho. I really liked this sort of skill when I tried warhammer online years ago.

Meh, I guess thats it. But doesn't mean my list is over
...sorry for my bad english I hope you understand what I've tried to describe.

Is this any different to when they removed it and most hunters switched to full red? Maybe put one of them back then...

Lionheart: Lorebreaking, hella not real, impossible, and what if we miss?

Not Lorebreaking at all, remember that we are not talking about healing hitpoints, we are talking about raising Morale. I'm pretty sure the snowed under Guardian with several mobs in their face would be happy to suddenly see arrows flying into one of them easing the pressure. Maybe if we miss it should reduce our morale because we are putting up such a poor performance?

Like your suggestion to fix 2 though.

Slflew: I'm not sure about this. This seems like it would decrease our survivability significantly, since our biggest hits are with our bow. With three melee mobs in your face, I think you'd regret having reduced damage at close range.

Isn't this what our stuns and slows are for (not to mention Rain of Thorns), just trying to inject some realism back into Hunters, even Legolas resorts to his knives from time to time.

We are not numerous, but I would like to see the hunter as a healer leecher.

There are not any lore obstacles and none gameplay side if implemented correctly.
The real obstacle is that people are reluctant to open their minds: 'nah hunter= ranged pew pew!!'

Hey all,
Thanks for the great posts (keep’em coming!), I’m happy to see a lot of passion and desire for meaningful changes. I’m also very pleased to say that my own analysis of hits many of the core issues you’ve outlined. (Yeah… I know, I said the same thing in the Burglar thread, but it’s true!)

I can’t go too deep into what I’ve been experimenting with, but I wanted to let you know that we are on the same page.

A few general things I agree with and have been attempting to address:
1. Lack of survivability – Both general survival and panic buttons are in need of some love
2. Role Definition is lacking – Bowmaster vs Huntsman (vs other DPS classes)
3. Trapper of Foes does what? – This line needs a clear purpose in group and solo play.
4. Skill Rotation needs an examination – we have some redundant and outdated skills
5. Legendaries that are less than Legendary

These, of course, aren’t the only things I’m addressing/adding, but I think these are some of the most prominent issues listed in this thread.

I’m hoping to be able to post my analysis of the class in the near-ish future, so stay tuned!

I'm not as vocal as some hunters are on this forum, but the number one thing I can say is thank you for the follow up and that you ARE reading our posts and messages about the class. I'm glad that we are on the same page about the major points about changing and updating the hunter class!

Hey all,
Thanks for the great posts (keep’em coming!), I’m happy to see a lot of passion and desire for meaningful changes. I’m also very pleased to say that my own analysis of hits many of the core issues you’ve outlined. (Yeah… I know, I said the same thing in the Burglar thread, but it’s true!)

I can’t go too deep into what I’ve been experimenting with, but I wanted to let you know that we are on the same page.

A few general things I agree with and have been attempting to address:
1. Lack of survivability – Both general survival and panic buttons are in need of some love
2. Role Definition is lacking – Bowmaster vs Huntsman (vs other DPS classes)
3. Trapper of Foes does what? – This line needs a clear purpose in group and solo play.
4. Skill Rotation needs an examination – we have some redundant and outdated skills
5. Legendaries that are less than Legendary

These, of course, aren’t the only things I’m addressing/adding, but I think these are some of the most prominent issues listed in this thread.

I’m hoping to be able to post my analysis of the class in the near-ish future, so stay tuned!

for what it's worth, i was about to cancle my sub (again) until i read this...you just got another 3 months out of me with this one post.

Hey all,
Thanks for the great posts (keep’em coming!), I’m happy to see a lot of passion and desire for meaningful changes. I’m also very pleased to say that my own analysis of hits many of the core issues you’ve outlined. (Yeah… I know, I said the same thing in the Burglar thread, but it’s true!)

I can’t go too deep into what I’ve been experimenting with, but I wanted to let you know that we are on the same page.

A few general things I agree with and have been attempting to address:
1. Lack of survivability – Both general survival and panic buttons are in need of some love
2. Role Definition is lacking – Bowmaster vs Huntsman (vs other DPS classes)
3. Trapper of Foes does what? – This line needs a clear purpose in group and solo play.
4. Skill Rotation needs an examination – we have some redundant and outdated skills
5. Legendaries that are less than Legendary

These, of course, aren’t the only things I’m addressing/adding, but I think these are some of the most prominent issues listed in this thread.

I’m hoping to be able to post my analysis of the class in the near-ish future, so stay tuned!

Kelsan... you've just let in the light into the black heart of Huntergorn forest!
A heartfelt thanks for the follow up response!

one question though:

what of mobility? through this thread and elsewhere on the forums I've read a lot of suggestions on giving the Hunter some mobile ability... Is that part of "survival" or is that something that has yet to be explored?

Hunter should be *the* ranged dps class. Minis and rks right now are better choices because they deliver high ranged dps, can kite much more effectively, and have the versatility of healing. In the Moors, I would much rather face a hunter than a mini or an rk. A hunter that runs is dead. A mini or rk that runs is kiting... they will continue to rain tactical damage on you while healing.

The above being said, I am a hunter that traits Trapper of Foes. I know I give up some dps, but I like the utility of having CC that I can put to good use solo or in a group. The radar changes have made tracking a bit redundant, maybe tracking a target could put a Hunter's Mark on it for 30 seconds that gives a 10% damage bonus.

Finally how about a better UI for all of our travel abilities? That's too many hotbar spaces.

Hum yes but correct me if I'm wrong, RK do not have the melee arsenal that we have.
So as much as I want the Hunter ranged dps adjusted, RKs also have the right to be top ranged dps as well, when traited as such.

Not a 'main' hunter by any stretch (9th level 85, doesn't get out to raid as often as he would like, and has never PvP'd), but I have a couple of ideas that may or may not be any good. :P

Firstly, I too would love to see Endurance become a more mobile play style, as well as giving some more up to date group utility. I think this could be done with changes to yellow line, by enabling certain skills like quick shot, barbed arrow on the move in Endurance stance by slotting more yellow traits.

Maybe there should be some sort of penalty to this by default. For example, if the skill is clicked while moving, let it have 80% of normal damage. You could introduce a legacy and modify the yellow capstone to eliminate that penalty.

If done this way, you would have to trait for it to get the best of it. You couldn't get the best of everything at once just by stance dancing. Not sure if this would be necessary, but if it is, this could be one way to do it.

A couple of other suggestions that could maybe improve a couple of not-as-good-as-they-should-be skills:

In Strength, add a new bleed, reduce the target's incoming healing
In Precision, increase your target's attack duration, next blood arrow will crit
In Endurance, increase incoming critical hit chance of the target

Maybe these effects should require 3 or 4 traits from the relevant trait line. Oh, and remove the big X.

Change Hunter's Art. Something like:

In Strength, either leave as is or change to a crit magnitude buff
In Precision, increase partial avoidance chance and mitigation
In Endurance, mitigate your attacker's finesse rating against yourself, reduce on-the-move miss chance (if this is still a thing)

It might be fun to keep these small, but allow them to stack in combat, and either introduce a legacy to increase the effect duration, or allow it to refresh, RK writ style.

I like the look of where you're heading, Kelsan, and thanks for keeping communication open!

I'm not sure if my thoughts will be unique or not because I just discovered this thread and only read through the first page.

1. Complexity. I know that this is a basic class, and I think that is a good thing at the beginning. But I think it would be great to add in more complexity as the class levels up. I first chose a hunter because I was new to the game AND the genre and knew I would need a basic, easy-to-learn class. When I began learning to group I had more to learn since I had to figure out how to manage my aggro. Now that my hunter is 85, however, I rarely play her. I find the complex, adjust-to-the-battle gameplay of my RK and my lower-level LM far more exciting. I have found that with my hunter, in a group, I usually just take a target and keep on shooting through my skill rotation. It seems like most other classes, if not all, have to watch the flow of the battle far more diligently. An RK or mini, as healers, watch and respond to the health of the group; the warden and guard, as tanks, have to make sure the adds are all focused on them; LMs are watching for CC and power needs, champs and cappies make great main assists and are watching for which target to take down next; burgs have to decide when to pull an FM. Hunters....shoot. There is rarely a need to choose which skill to use next based on what has happened/is happening in the group. Pretty much any skill will do in almost any situation. Now, occasionally we get the main assist/DPS lead role, which is awesome, but since the DPS lead seems more likely to pull the add being targeted it's nice to have a survivable class doing that (next point), so for the most part I find I am very bored when I take my hunter to a raid.

2. Survivability. I see that you have this on your radar, so I would just like to say that I love soloing with my hunter because of the speed at which she can typically move through "kill x number of mobs/collect y number of z" quests. However, there is usually a point at which I get tired of playing her and take a break because I can't handle the tedium of trying to make sure I don't pull more than one or, if I'm careful, 2 mobs in case for some odd reason I can't get it down before it gets to me.

3. Power. At the moment this is not an issue -- I can make it through almost any fight, using my skills (augmented by traits and LI) and pots -- without too much frustration or difficulty, and I love that. I sacrifice some DPS, I know, but that makes it a lot easier to not pull aggro which is always appreciated by a tank! I really want to mention it because A) I don't know what's going to happen when U10 comes out and B) it looked like some people were suggesting traits and legacies which I use to keep my power up (earthborn, press onward to name two) be removed or changed because they don't use them. I just want you to know that I personally feel they ARE useful and I would be very disappointed if the ability to keep my power up (although I'm not picky about how) disappeared.

Good to finally know that there is a dev that knows and listen to the hunters.

I like where you are targeting although I would point out this:

1. Some traits needs to be either combined with another to open up new traits or moved around to the appropriate trait line. Why is a dps based trait in a cc line? Why is a speed trait in a big number dps line?

2. ToF needs to be fixed.

3. Please by the name of the Valor make each stance unique and not just one stance to go with (precision). Just like how each effect quickshot, make each hunter skill (does not has to be all) different when going into that stance.<---this adds more diversity and diversity is a good thing!

4. Please look at the legendary traits! either make them a skill/passive and make new ones or improve them!

Anyways, whatever you are working on I hope you can keep up with the communication between the community.

2) Trapper:
Stay as it is as unbuffed DPSer with increased effective CC and survivability. Threat and power consumption is naturally low due to unbuffed attack skills, standard induction time and focus generation.
Traits and traitline bonus improve some survival skills if not all, and stat:
a) Increase Swift Stroke's buff or duration.
b) Increase Agile Rejoinder's heal or ticks.
c) Increase Cry of the Hunter's bubble or duration.
d) Agility adds crit defense. Honestly, my Hunter, as well as other Burglars, always get one-shotted by critted or devastate attacks. In fact, Agility should increase crit defence for all classes, especially for Hunter and Burglar to compensate for current weakness of medium armour. I think it make sense when Agility increased crit (though post-U10 is less), Agility itself also increase crit defence to counter the enemies' crit.

Trap and snare skill's induction could use both reduced induction time and uninterruptible in bonus 1.
Spring Loaded Traps' debuff is too weak and short lived and generally ignored (at least by me). What low DPS by Trapper compensated by increasing fellowship's DPS.
Combat Traps extend the bonus to Set Snare.
Change Endurance's Hunter's Art to buff decreased miss or avoidance chance for all CC skills.

3) Huntsman:
Stays the mobile quick draw but not-so-sustainable DPSer, with naturally increased threat and power consumption due to using faster inducted and focus skills. Generally, Huntsman's DPS should be better if only slightly than Bowmaster's.
Improved Fleetness becomes a toggle skill (probably a tad overpowered).
Melee attacks should be fast by decreasing melee attack duration. Melee DPS should be on par to ranged DPS as an incentive for Huntsman to go toe-to-toe (melee), especially in fellowship.
Change Precision's Hunter's Art to buff focus skills' crit chance, or all skill's crit or devastate magnitude.

Kelsan... you've just let in the light into the black heart of Huntergorn forest!
A heartfelt thanks for the follow up response!

one question though:

what of mobility? through this thread and elsewhere on the forums I've read a lot of suggestions on giving the Hunter some mobile ability... Is that part of "survival" or is that something that has yet to be explored?

From my point of view, survivability is the addition of two factors (because we're not healers neither tanks) :
Mobility +panic buttons.

Kelsan are there any plans to address the issue of hunters range in group play?

Guard threat leech is 10m, warden threat leech 25m, captains buffs and heals are from 10 to 30m. LM/minstrel can have problem with reaching hunters as well. Grouping up for distributed attacks at the back of the boss also isn't fun for 40m range class.

So basically if hunter is taking advantage of its 40m attack range, there is ton of group skills(some quite critical for raids) that are completely missing being applied to hunter. The usual way for hunter to deal with this is stand about 10-20m away from the boss/mob, defeating the whole 40m range feature.

1. Combine tracking skills
2. Combine crit multiplier legacies
3. Scale Heartseeker and make its trait give it 10-20% additional crit chance
4. Scale Press Onward to be instant heal without a long animation or make it a 2s induction aoe group heal for 2-3k
5. Make BOTR a threat drop or an aoe group heal for 10-20 hp every time you use a dps skill
6. Give us an additional heal around 500- 1k with a 30-60s cd if you dont scale PO
7. Make Bard's Arrow a fellowship +5% damage for 15s on a 30s cd with 600-1000 initial damage and a 1s induction
8. Completely change the yellow line to a aoe dps line moving the rain of arrow traits from red/blue to yellow
9. Change Agile Rejoinder to a 30s cd parry response that improves our evade/parry by 20-30% for 3-5s
10. Change Cry of the Hunter to something useful
11. Make Focus do something in combat every one minute (+5% crit for 10s)