GA Minutes – 7pm Sunday 18th December 2011

Proposals that achieved consensus:
• mini-dome to be used as interim women’s shelter (proposed by Shelter working group)
• Shelter working group to become the frontline welcoming group at OLSX (proposed by Shelter working group)

Ben welcomes all to the GA at St Paul’s. Gives roundup of process and extended description of hand signals. More people outside the main tent want to move in. Rearrangements go on. Jules makes a point about fire hazard. Emergency fire exits are pointed out.

Ben declares GA in session. One piece of working group feedback, followed by overview description of the current situation in the camp. Two agenda items up for discussion. Format: point will be raised, then groups will break-out for discussion. Interruption – how will we break up? There’s no space in the tent. Ben agrees that when we come to the breakouts we’ll have to decamp. The aim is to try and finish by 9:20.

Shelter group feedback: good news and bad news. Good news: we have a geodesic dome outside by the library. It can accommodate about 15-20 people. Would be available for working group meetings. Also includes a table. Asks for consensus for mini-dome beside it. The women’s yurt is gone and now the women are coming asking for somewhere to accommodate women over night. Asks GA if they agree to have mini-dome used as women’s shelter. Ben asks for consensus. Point made to make the decision after the two agenda points are discussed, as these might affect this decision.

Phoenix: We’ve been offered a number of other structures from Green Gathering. 36ft dome and other structures. Also for Finsbury square.

Ben asks for consensus to use mini-dome as interim space for women’s shelter. No disagreement. CONSENSUS REACHED.

Second point. Welcoming package from shelter group. If someone is new arriving at OLSX, shelter would like to introduce them to the camp, how the camp is situated, where is what, take them around. Asks for shelter to take over camp tours from info. People are calling from different parts of the UK, asking if they can stay with us, are there tents available etc. Shelter would like to ask GA how we can address this. High levels of cleaning etc. expected, shelter asks GA for help. Please do not put anything at the back of the kitchen, it has to stay a clean area.

Last point. Introduces Steve from Occupy Newcastle.

Ben takes temperature check for shelter to be frontline welcoming for the camp. CONSENSUS REACHED.

Steve (Occ. Newcastle): have been in Occ. Newcastle for 2 months. It’s a strain on everyone. There has been trouble with the homeless people up there, drinking inside the tents, things going missing. We decided to put a no drugs-no alcohol signs/limits all over the place. Some ladies from the camp came back under the influence of alcohol. I told them, it’s got to stop, people look at us and laugh at us. We’ve got to unite on this, as a family. It’s got to stop.

Vica – tomorrow is the last day to bring in requests for funding. 11am to 3pm in Starbucks.

Jamie – City of London Corp. working group asks for Guildhall action at 10am supporting the cleaners.

Ronan (press team): This is an attempt to bring information together about things that have happened at GA, what has been agreed or offered. Church liaison group, offer from the cathedral, needs to be factored in to what direction we’re going. What has been decided by the GA in terms of restructuring. Also some of the good points that came out of an emergency meeting that was held following a rather difficult night in camp. Mat and Naomi will update on the legal situation. Hopefully the aim is that the discussions will be properly informed.

Proposal from the cathedral. This is something that has been offered whether we are evicted or not, i.e. does not depend on us leaving. It does however require further clarification from us. They have requested we come back to them with a response. There’s an opportunity to do this on Wednesday. We just factor this in. First possibility: limited presence with info tent outside the cathedral. When brought up to GA there were a lot of questions about “limited”. This is just a starting point.

Reads out rest of church proposal [nb: copied from minutes of 7pm GA, 3rd December 2011 http://occupylsx.org/?p=2003].

• We propose that the protest has a limited presence with an information tent outside the cathedral.
• We propose that the General Assembly continues to meet on the steps of Saint Pauls at regular intervals.
• We will also look at making the protest visible inside the church through, for example, a symbolic tent, visual art, and acts of worship.
• We would like to extend an invitation for representatives of the protest to work creatively with both the Cathedral Forum and the Saint Paul’s Institute to further public debate.
• We recognise the importance of public space in which to hold meetings and debate and, while we have nothing specific to offer right now, we are prepared to help the protest to identify and negotiate the use of such space in the City.
• Building on existing initiatives like, for example, Ken Costa’s initiative and the work of the St. Paul’s Institute, we are committed to the dialogue between politicians and the protest to discuss pathways to effective legislation through Parliament to address the causes of some of the injustices.

I know there’s a spread of opinions on this, all I’m saying is factor them in the discussion.

Things not included are any kind of provision regarding welfare, there’s nothing there, also something called nave space. Around all cathedrals there’s basically land that has been given over by the state to the cathedral to manage. But across the country there’s the potential for occupy to use this space. This is something that has been suggested to us to bring to the church.

In terms of restructuring, what has been agreed. No hot catering at St Paul’s after 7pm. New tranquility team tent with 24 hour hot water bottles and sandwiches. Strengthening of FS food operation in evenings. Identification and removal of empty tents at ST Paul’s to protect rotators. Also begin creation and sourcing of communal tents. Create new wet space (alcohol?). At emergency GA meeting (15th December), there was consensus for specific points [nb. points copied from Em Weirdigan’s e-mail of 15th December to the groupspaces mailing list].

• Tranquillity to buy whistles: if campers hear whistles they are to go to whistles and support Tranquillity asap in a peaceful manner (getting out of bed if necessary!)
• Bank of Ideas support to be sought: we need radios back from BoI and would like BoI crew to support St Paul’s at night by volunteering for Tranquillity and/or by sleeping here. (Tammy and Shezza volunteered to visit BoI)
• More volunteers for Tranquillity required: everyone to accept responsibility for Tranquillity; at every GA volunteers will be asked for; Bear to set up workshops in peace-keeping tips for Tranquillity volunteers. (7 volunteers stepped forward for tonight)
• Core Ground Rules for Camp Membership: we require peaceful, non-violent, sober, process/GA-respecting behaviour. Anyone behaving in ways which violate these core ground rules can be asked to leave the camp. The camp can dissociate from individuals who repeatedly violate; they will no longer be considered as members of the camp and will not be welcome to access camp facilities.
• Peaceful, en-masse Tranquillity support: the camp, en masse (or with as many members as can be mustered) may in a non-aggressive way ask someone violating core ground rules to leave; and keep repeating this until the person does leave.
• Consideration of restraining orders: where personal safety is at risk we will consider asking for a restraining order to prevent an individual coming into the vicinity of the camp. (Tammy to research legalities and practicalities of this)

Other factors you may want to consider. Potential of new occupations coming up. Certainly in the next 4 weeks there will be other things happening too. We have 3 camps at the moment. We need to look at how coordination across the camps is workings. Looks at how we can inform new camps that might be set up. Are there opportunities or things we might want to avoid?

? – Unions supporting tranquility. Further developments on Monday. At the same time, this will take some time to build up. There’s also support that has been offered by churches, various chaplains. Something else to bear in mind.

Jules – Direct response. You can pass the whistles but we won’t use them. GA is making decisions without knowing what’s happening on ground. With the whistles we are inviting vigilante justice like what happened the other night when 15 people ganged up and beat up someone who they thought was involved in something but wasn’t. Thought they were some kind of A-team. We (tranquility) are not going to use them.

Phoenix – Bank of Ideas. Everyone of our 12 and 7pm GAs, people are asked to go and help at St Paul’s, help with tranquility, info and kitchen. We are all one movement. We’re learning. We will help in any way we can.

? – Direct point to Jules: the whistles can be used properly, we just need to work out how to do it, that’s all.

Legal feedback (Mat): We had 78 statements, went to the solicitors, then the barristers. They are basing the case on freedom of speech and expression. Their argument is that without the tents we won’t be able to exercise those rights. Will start at midday tomorrow. Room 25. It’s expected the case will take three or four days. If judgment isn’t received by then (Thursday), it’ll go on in January. If it is, the bailiffs will be here by Christmas [nb: minute taker unsure about accuracy of this last point].

? – Clarification request: are you going to accept the bundle tomorrow? Accept the City of London Corp. as a legal democratic institution? .

Ben – The legal action has been undertaken on the authority of the GA. The GA at St Paul’s is sovereign and mandated the legal team to go ahead with the legal action.

George – These are points (e.g. that City of London Corp. is an undemocratic institution) that we can get in the record. In terms of the legal situation, there are potential consequences for the case in terms of what we decide here tonight, e.g. if we make dynamic changes to the camp, this would help our court case.

? – Can you clarify the nature of the legal action taking place?

Mat – The case is based on obstruction of highway and the fact that we don’t have permission to be here. Article 10 and 11 rights. Highways act shouldn’t trump our right to democratic protest.

? – Is any of this land owned by the church?

? – Responsibility of the land, council is responsible for this land.

Clarification point. Steve (Anonymous). We occupy area two (on church land). The camp itself is area one on the council’s plan. Then there’s area three which is essentially all the area around St Paul’s which they’re trying to get the injunction for that. They’re trying to get the injunction to stop us from moving. They’re claiming that no one has claimed sanctuary in 300 years, no one has slept rough here. As Anonymous we’re arguing that nothing’s been served to us, so we stand on the land.

Kai – George is bringing up the issue of questioning the legitimacy of City of London Corp. But we’re also making that point?

Mat – point is to allow for different points to be put forward.

? – Anyone had the opportunity to make their point(s) in their statement.

Kai – did the strategy of the legal team go through the GA?

Ben – I understood that the GA mandated the legal team through consensus to engage in our defense on their behalf. It was up to them to decide how to do it.

? – Technical point – Someone is robbing the money in the info tent.

Tammy – the litigants, absolutely fabulous can I say, they will be going at things from their angle, and that’s fine. I don’t know whether what the litigants will be discussing in the court will be ratified by GA. I think it’s really good that they can do their thing, I can do my thing. We’ll be hearing varying angles. I don’t have a clue what these guys will be asking me, or us, until we’re in the stand.

Technical point (Jules) – Who left the money unattended in the tent? And why?

Tammy – the legitimacy of the City of London hasn’t been raised in GA until tonight. The night before the start of the court case might be a difficult time to deal with that. Let’s just gather and hit them from all sides. Let’s just do all things and get them.

Paul – I did cover that in my statement, the solicitors and barristers have decided they want to go the way that they’re going. I don’t think my statement will be used but if any of the other litigants want to, they’re welcome to use it.

Ben – anyone who wants to talk to the litigants, do so after the meeting.

? – Who are the litigants?

George and Dan.

Ronan – good to have a word from Bank of Ideas who are going to be in the court on the same day. Point I want to make is that we suggest that people gather from 9am for banner making here (St Paul’s), 10am solidarity pickets with City of London cleaners, then 11am at High Court where we can hold a GA outside, then around 12ish we’ll have St Paul’s case, then 2pm is Bank of Ideas.

Tammy – I’d like to ask as we have a lawyer in the house tonight, can we hear from a bona fide lawyer.

John (lawyer) – The Corporation of London have served papers saying that there are specific grounds to evict us from site. The legal team were only hired to defend against eviction, they are not hired to take a stand for a bigger picture. While it’s very generous of people to be offering last minute information, we’ve been aware of most of the issues over the past few weeks.

Phoenix – Bank of Ideas legal position. Injunction based on health and safety.
Court 72, 2pm. Basic situation. If our third and final appeal asking for normal squatters’ court case. If injunction is kept tomorrow, we’re on red alert for 6am eviction Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or Friday. We hope we get a fair trial. That the injunction is never heard in court cases, the case is thrown out of court. If this happens, we should we safe until 28th-29th, or even first week of January. Normal squatting court case. That might make it last another month or two. We are preparing for alternatives, plan B, C, D and E. Also, If there are any more experienced facilitators, please come to Bank of Ideas and share your skills.

Ben – Em will take us through the agenda points.

Em – first point. Really big. The physical transformation and radical restructuring of the Occupy London movement, this involves anything from whether we move the kitchen tent from St Paul’s to whether we up and move everything else. We need to be really focused, what would be like to do be bearing the church’s offer and the upcoming legal case. Think big, remember that dynamic changes would affect the court case.

Second point. Conflict resolution and problematic behaviours. Our friend from Newcastle touched on this earlier. Might touch on the first topic.

Vica – we’re really looking for proposals, looking to the future, starting obviously from the problems but moving to the future. Whatever proposals you make, give them a timeframe, make them real and concrete.

[Breakout of groups between 10 and 15 people.]

George – it is suspected that as things stand, we don’t stand a good chance of staying here. The idea is that making a transformation would affect the case.

? – Is everyone here are you aware that in the news, 40000 families, 100000 people, are believed to be about to be homeless in London this winter. That’s been in the news, my question is, do you know this and are you ready to do something about this?

Ben – Mattia has a specific proposal relevant to the first discussion group.

? – What is his proposal?

Mattia – idea is to divide the three sites according to specific functions. This place here is the most visible, the one everyone outside here identifies here. Should be the outreach hub. Only tent uni, public space for outreach and tents by outreach group. Bank of Ideas or indoor space will be our own house, people go to work on workshops etc. Finsbury square might become the community. Tents that are here can be moved to FS.

? – Disruption by someone saying that by the time he blows the whistle, he’ll be stabbed.

Group feedback

Naomi (group 1) – Consensus that we need to retain some kind of presence at St Paul’s but we need this to be reduced, to undercut court case, win some kind of PR battle, example to occupations across the world. Also to look after the people who are here. Also internally, we need to think about stage 2, we’ve done a brilliant job but need to think about outreach. Think about outreach and response to emerging social issues, unemployment, homelessness, education, educating each other etc. Maybe our energies are not being totally productively applied at the moment. There are people who feel they can’t come here and feel safe and comfortable.

Em (group 2) – we didn’t manage to come up with one proposal. We have up with a few. We had consensus on one immediate, short-term proposal. Start tonight, finish tomorrow. Proposal was to clean up this camp, remove any tents that are left that are empty or broken, have a really effort to make wide empty spaces, make it beautiful for Christmas and invite people in. Ideas we came up with downsizing St Paul’s camp so it is less residential, more public facing, so we keep library, TCU, info, a tent with space for table with working groups that want to talk to the public. Obviously people would be needed to look after these spaces day and night. We can organise it any way we want it to. That had a half-half agreement/interest. Other idea: do something like that but make a commitment to do that only when we have found a building that we could be sure of having for free for 6 months, that we could have a stable base from which to build movement activities. Then we would be willing to downsize St Paul’s. This had not entire consensus but a lot of warmth in our group. Proposal to leave things more or less as they are. Two people in our group who felt strongly about St Paul’s being occupied as a residential site.

Jules – the entire tranquility team is pretty much disbanded for tonight.

Direct response – Tranquility team in place, being organised, we’ll deal with this afterward.

Disruption – One main thing is being ignored. We are a community where the solution can evolve through this community. Is not about finding a house. The people who live here, this is the right environment for them.

Ben – there is time for this sort of thing. After the GA, I encourage people in the next few days, pick your fellow occupiers, have these conversations.

Phoenix (group 3) – St Paul’s being somewhat more non-residential, tent-city, info, outreach hub. FS would be affected by large influx of accommodation. Could FS cope with more people? We also need outdoor spaces, there are more indoor spaces coming. Proposal came up about a wet site, occupy some large shelter buildings. Contacting 500 homeless charities and asking them to help people. Squatting workshops once a week. Concern – St Paul’s is a focus, gets most attention. We need to be outside and visible so everyone can get involved. Point was also made, you cannot evict an idea. More communal structures, they are better looking, domes, yurts etc. If the church sees that we are clearing up and focusing as a protest and discussion space, it will be easier for the church to let us be here longer. If you’re moving people from one area to an hour, would it be occupied 24-hours? More communal hours occupied 24-hours. Every night it’s been getting more and more crazy. If we’re evicted, we still can come here whether the tents are here or not. This site won’t get fenced all round. At the moment, St Paul’s seeming not viable, needs radical restructuring. Within one to two weeks, particularly if we get transport sorted, we can get this happen. More open spaces are needed to rotate the GAs. Proposal that other GAs happen in local parks around London. Mobile GA gatherings. Idea that FS is becoming permanent, Islington council is up for it becoming a sustainable eco-village. How do we restructure, get other people to support? Temperature check about restructuring across all three sites. We should restructure individually along each site, urgently needed to do this in a streamlined way.

Group 4 – Focused on Mattia’s proposal. Focus on FS being more community-based and run site, kitchen, domes etc. Bank of Ideas and future buildings to be used for working groups have lots of meetings, don’t need/have a public front so much. Anonymous are very separate to that, want to remain on this site. Most drastic restructure for OLSX; maintain info, TCU, outreach, livestream, tranquility. People staying here would be involved in working group. This would become a working space, rather than a residential space. There is a really concrete proposal, pros and cons, will be available from noon tomorrow at info tent.

Mattia – the issue of timeframe. Something immediate for the camp, by the end of the year do the bigger restructuring.

Also work side-by-side with legal on this restructuring.

Paul – We asked some architects to put a sketch competition, get something that everybody really likes.

Jamie (group 5) – There’s no way in hell we’re going to let the police evict us. We won’t let the GA evict us. Amsterdam they have a big welcoming tent. It’s really efficient, half a dozen people. Whole lot of people here saying, I’m not going anywhere. But there was agreement to remove empty tents. Contingency plans. Important to realise the sort of system we’re up against. About Glasgow, they did agree, yes we’ll move and now they’ve basically faded away entirely. No way we’re going to lose this flagship. It’s made a huge difference, this aspect, to the global occupy movement. Huge amount of people are getting drawn here who don’t do anything beyond eat the food and making things difficult in terms of behaviour. Just the basic resources, we should provide them to people working here and pull back from trying to feed everyone. Very happy to scale back. But people who work here, are proud to be here, don’t want to move. We recognise we’re parts of a whole. Tranquility would do really well to have at least six working people per night.

Jowie – I’m worried about the stridency, the self-confidence of people. I feel intimidated by peoples’ self-confidence and empowerment. I’m staying here because I have nowhere else to go but I don’t want to be in this movement anymore. I’ve had enough of this. [walks out]

Ben – Jowie is part of recycling. Without Jowie this camp would be in trouble. If we can’t keep people like Jowie engaged, we’re making a mistake.

Jules – Addition to Jamie – I came here willing to die. This GA is not going to make me move from this site.

? – I don’t understand why educated people can’t handle recycling, why they leave so much food on their plate, can’t understand why educated people are so stupid.

Vica – we need to be able to make some decisions, we need to change some things very quickly. Let’s see if there are some things we’re able to agree on today.

Ben – we’re going to look at the ideas that had lots of warmth in them and check them for consensus. Is anyone against us testing for consensus on any of these points tonight?

? – Please let’s not rush through consensus tonight, a lot of the stuff needs to spread through the rest of the people who are not present at tonight’s GA.

? – People don’t mention that last night there was a GA and some people, including myself, realised there is some sort of hierarchy, concentrated power, like in media and process for GA, most of the time it’s the same people. We want to see more new people to come, also for the media, we suggested, there are new people from the camp to come talk to them.

? – Maybe the legal team here is working for the City of London Corporation.

Paul – you’ve seen people living here expressing the stress that they’re under, these are really dedicated people, I live here, I’ve lost my home, I chose to be here. Rationalising this site, protects our home, please bear that in mind.

Vica – we’ll try and reach consensus only if it’s possible.

Ronan – shelter has done some really good work, there’s already some empty space. The point is to use the next 12-24 hours to make this visible, so people can see it, walk through it. Make it a family-friendly space, so press team can say, we’ve decorated this for Christmas, come and visit us. We need a dedicated 2-3 hour slot to come and work on that as a camp, as a movement. The proposal is to do that tomorrow morning realistically, reshape the organisation of the camp. Have a team of people in the interim looking at what needs to be done, source decorations etc.

Vica – I would like to add to that, whoever would like to organise this can do so after the GA but we would need a lot of volunteers to help with this, an interim shelter group.

Ben – asks for consensus. Two in disagreement. Ben asks for explanations.

Block one – I have two empty tents here. These two empty tents are not actually empty. I’ve given them to two people. I randomly meet people who need tents, I’ll need more. Also, I find infrastructure a bit difficult to work with.

Ben – process point. It’s agreed that this is handled through shelter, handing out tents.

Block one – What are you planning to do with the empty tents? Pack them away?

Shelter response – we’re going around. All tents that are blowing, there’s nothing in them, we put them in storage tent. We’ve been storing tents there for more than 12 days. Only two people have come back asking for their tents. After 15 days, if no one comes asking for them, we’ll donate them to other people.

Block 2 (Phil) – the proposal comes in two parts. One, clean up the camp. Two, making the camp a safe environment. I don’t see anything in the proposal to make the camp a safe environment. I’d take my objection back if you drop the second part of this proposal.

Ronan – to make the camp safe is what the next discussion was meant to be about. What I’m saying is making it more inviting. Let’s get the spirit of Christmas going.

Matthew (veterans for peace) – can I also recommend Phil’s point as well, can we keep 10 tents that are empty. We need tents available so we can put people up straight away.

Ben – I think this has been noted by shelter. Are you content with the fact that shelter has noted your point? [answer is yes]

? – Can I suggest that visitors use Finsbury square, just for the next week or so.

Block 3 – It just seems so foggy. We’re going to clean it up. Sounds like landscape architecture. We’ll need a working group to know exactly what we’re doing. It won’t take one morning, it’ll take several days. Tranquility is still going to be up in arms about it. You’re just going to have to talk to them about it. Otherwise it’s just like evicting them.

? – The reason we’re having this discussion, is to respond to what’s happening this week. The idea is to show the courts like we’re still in charge.

Block 3 – If you want to do a major restructuring of this camp, e.g. make it look really nice for the camp, make the tents color-coordinated, like the colours of the rainbow.

Ben – I’m going to take two more points. Then we’ll quickly check for consensus, we’re not trying to ramrod this through.

Block 1 – The camp was restructured a few weeks back. My tent was actually moved while I was in it. It’s concerning for me because late at night, people have just turned up at tech tent, there’s no one from shelter around. I think this also fractures us, leaves only a small contingent of people.

? – Do phased restructuring, basically people who are ready and willing to move, do that as quickly as possible. Other people who don’t want to leave, can still be left.

Ben – Point of clarification.

Vica – I think we’re confusing a lot of things. Restructuring has already started in this camp. The proposal is, do we tomorrow all collaborate to try to make this place simply tidier, cleaner, more welcoming. That’s all we’re saying, let’s do a first little phase. We’re just going for a first proposal.

Ben – can someone read out the proposal as it stands now amended.

Ronan – tomorrow at 9am to look at reshaping the existing camp to take away the obvious empty tents that shelter will know about already, make it a visibly welcoming space, to get decorations.

Jules – why should we be spending money on Christmas decorations when a lot of our working groups aren’t getting any money?

Ronan – we got callouts for donations and also people to come and help.

Jules – as long as there’s a stipulation that camp funds are not used for this purpose.

Ben – with that rider (camp funds not to be used for decorations), is there a block on this proposal?

Block 3 – Yes, why can’t we get people to volunteer come here and protect this place? Restructuring is ad hoc, means that there are not enough people here to protect this camp.

Vica – second part of this evening should be exactly on this subject.

Ben – I’m going to call it that we’re not going to come to consensus tonight. I’m happy to be persuaded otherwise. We said we weren’t going to ramrod anything through tonight.

Three more blocks.

? – Any kind of change or restructuring, lots of this is happening already. If any more is to happen, it should be with due respect to the people living on the camp.

Tammy – can’t you just re-explain what a block is and what it means. People are using blocks just because they’re not getting their own way.

Ben – a block means that if this proposal goes through, it would cause me to leave this movement. That this is against occupy.

? – Can I propose that these proposals are drawn out and placed in info tent so people can read and digest them.

Vica – clarification point. This discussion has been going on for the past two weeks in the camp. Everybody knows about it.

Akira – these are not blocks, they’re disagreements, take the process seriously.

Jules – leaving the movement does not mean we leave this space.

Phil – I want to refer everyone to the GA minutes. This has already received consensus apart from the Christmas decorations.

Tammy (technical point) – can someone please go to the kitchen and grab some fruit for Akira, bananas if possible.

Ben – I propose we postpone the next agenda point for the next scheduled general assembly.

Paul – we are faced with eviction for obstructing a highway. Not for having a higgledy-piggledy site. We need something very defined that addresses this particular point. [nb: adds at end of meeting that this would involve removal of toilets from their current site and clearing larger passageway in front of church.]

Ben – we’ve moved on from this point. I’m proposing we close this meeting now and we carry on at another time. We can have a GA tomorrow night at 7pm, although there wasn’t one planned. So we’ll need someone to go to process.

Jules, technical point – if anyone wants to do tranquility tonight, please come meet me now outside, so I can brief you on who the dangerous guys are etc.

? – I’m from legal as well, I have arranged one security team to go on which will swap with another security team at 3am from anonymous. This is a temporary arrangement, we’ll resolve the issues with tranquility tomorrow, they receive a lot of negative attention.