Discover's Debt Collectors' Threats Drive Woman To Suicide

By consumerist.comJune 8, 2007

The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act starts out this way:

There is abundant evidence of the use of abusive, deceptive, and unfair debt collection practices by many debt collectors. Abusive debt collection practices contribute to the number of personal bankruptcies, to marital instability, to the loss of jobs, and to invasions of individual privacy.

One of the things debt collection leads to that is missing to the FDCPA’s introduction is this: suicide.

It doesn’t happen “all the time,” but it does happen, sadly enough. The “credit card nation” documentary, Maxed Out, interviews several families of debt-related suicides, and talks with debtors who have seriously considered taking their own lives.

The recent MacDermid decision from the Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals reads like a heartbreaking tale of debt collection gone wrong. Debt collectors working in-house for Discovery (thereby saving Discover from FDCPA claims), allegedly threated Ms. MacDermid with (among other things) jail time, going so far as to make up a relationship with the local prosecutor’s office. Here is what they said, according to the decision:

had spoken with a lady named “Harriott” who had told her that, under the facts described above, Mr. MacDermid is legally liable for his wife’s charge card; and

that she had filed a report with the Giles County Sheriff’s office; and

that Harriott Barkly of the Giles County District Attorney’s office, advised her that because the MacDermids were married, and because Mr. MacDermid was aware of his wife’s problem, he “should keep a better eye on her” and should “keep her away from the internet”; and

that there was no need for him to talk to a lawyer, because, even though there was no signature, and it was procured on the Internet, Mrs. MacDermid’s application is binding on Mr. MacDermid, and he is definitely liable; and

that [Adonica Gilmore stated], if the matter could not be resolved, “I’ll just call Harriott” . . . and have the authorities “take a little trip out to your house.”

These lies convinced Ms. MacDermid she had no choice but to take her life to save her husband from the debt she racked up.

In law, you take your “victim” as you find them. Ms. MacDermid was bipolar, but that was not her fault. That is why the Sixth Circuit found that Discover’s debt collection constituted “outrageous conduct,” and that Mr. MacDermid could therefore sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress.

@Toof_75_75: Does that invalidate her debt? I would assume if they were trying to hold her husband liable for the debt while she was alive (if that had any validity to it), then he’d still be liable for the debt after she passed.

That’s the primary reason I have life insurance right out of college – my father is a co-signee on all my student loans, so Sallie Mae can get their money no matter what…

[Consumerist crosspost] The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act starts out this way: There is abundant evidence of the use of abusive, deceptive, and unfair debt collection practices by many debt collectors.

@Sam Glover: I’m not totally sure he is out of the woods. Wouldn’t her estate be liable after her death? And wouldn’t her estate include some of the property they own as a married couple? I am not an estate lawyer, but I think that some of his property could be at risk. Anyone with more experience out there care to chime in?

Although it appears from the record that the on-line application listed Mr. MacDermid as the primary cardholder ad Mrs. MacDermid as an authorized buyer…the exact contours of their contractual obligations to Discover (whether individually or as a couple) remain somewhat unclear to us, at least at this stage in the proceedings.”

The problem is that there isn’t anything illegal in the way she obtained the cards. That’s the basis for the husband’s claim, namely that they threatened to hold her criminally liable for the debt. He said he wasn’t responsible for the debt, but he also didn’t file a fraud claim, so I think he’s in weird territory.

It’s worth opening the pdf if only for the last paragraph, which editorializes a bit on the lameness of credit card practices.

How mentally weak does a human being have to be to let a DEBT COLLECTOR drive them to suicide? Have these people been living perfect lives, in houses with white picket fences, and never faced adversity?

I’m tired of pussified society nowadays, from the Starbucks lady who was crying about a religious comment on her coffee cup, to this lady trying to make money by fabricating this story to file a lawsuit.

I hang up on debt collectors. Who cares about getting out of debt? Millionaires and billionaires have debt. The freakin’ United States is in debt. As soon as you get out of debt you’ll be back in it, so get over it.

Manage your money and these issues won’t come up. (I’m not a debt collector, by the way)

I tend to agree with you, though…I hate watching on TV when people “attempt” suicide…And then we coddle them and tell ourselves we “saved” them. When really, we just reassured them that if they need attention, they should go do something ridiculous and dangerous in public.

But, seriously, who lets this happen to them? It sucks that she was lied to, but still… kill yourself? over this? at the very, very, very least, before killing yourself, could she not have fact checked? Or, ya know, tried to take out a loan (putting herself in further debt elsewhere, sure, but at least switching who the money was for). Maybe talk to an accountant about other options? Honestly, wtf is wrong with someone to make suicide move this far up on the list of options? Actually, no, scratch that… why is suicide even on the list of options for dealing with debt?

I’m sure I’ll get negative comments for my apathetic feelings toward this “tragedy”, but after going through several tragedies myself, and knowing people who have had family pass away at an early age, failed pregnancies, failed marriages, failed businesses, failed everything, people who grew up with no parents, etc…debt is not something to pull your hair out over, much less kill yourself.

I have respect for people who have the mental fortitude to make it through tough times, not take the easy way out.

Honestly, wtf is wrong with someone to make suicide move this far up on the list of options?

What part of “bipolar” do you not understand? It’s a serious problem; someone in a depressive state is simply not able to be rational. Their brain is broken; they are unable to calmly consider their options as you or I would. They are an order of magnitude more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

My understanding of the credit card rules is that, unless he presses fraud charges against her, he is liable for the charges. And although Discover pushed her over the edge, it sounds like they didn’t have to do much. She had no sense of consequence when she got the cards, and when the consequence came up, she couldn’t handle it. Of course, it was fictionally presented as being more dire than necessary, but it was still the consequence of her actions.

Also, didn’t her husband NOTICE any of the stuff piling up in the house? Seriously.

@John Stracke: Okay, then. So she was psychologically more likely to have committed suicide than you or I. That sucks, and I feel bad for trivializing the situation down to just those two words, but it does. That sucks.

However, that said, doesn’t that make the debt collectors all that much less to blame? I mean, if she was already closer to the edge than most, who knows what would’ve pushed her off. It just so happened to be this, but by the “she’s mentally weaker” argument (which is undeniably sad – don’t get me wrong), couldn’t it just as easily have been something else?

My point is that “normal” people do not commit suicide over something as trivial as debt, so the collectors had no reason to assume she would.

@jillian: The husband never signed an agreement, and he never made any charges on the accound. The burden would be on Discover to prove otherwise. There are a couple of reasons for this, starting with the fact that he has no control over whether or not the local prosecutor decides to bring criminal charges.

@jeffj-nj: “. . . doesn’t that make the debt collectors all that much less to blame?”

In tort, which is what we are dealing with here, and in criminal law, you take your victim as you find her. If you punch someone with a thin skull, you are liable for whatever damage happens, whether you knew they had a thin skull or not. This is called the “eggshell plaintiff” or “eggshell skull” doctrine. Ms. MacDermid’s bipolar disorder is the equivalent of an eggshell skull when it comes to emotional distress claims.

How mentally weak does a human being have to be to let a DEBT COLLECTOR drive them to suicide? Have these people been living perfect lives, in houses with white picket fences, and never faced adversity?

Actually, financial problems is a leading reason cited for suicide. It happens more often than you think. Between the self-inflicted guilt, the unbelievable pressure from collectors, lack of necessary funds, and a lack of knowledge of your rights, its not hard to see how this happens. Add to that pre-existing mental, physical, or marital problems and it gets worse. We just saw a stat on the Consumerist that 20% of debtors see no way out of debt, which sounds low to me, but whatever. Still, I think the biggest underlying problem is that people just don’t know the truth – they don’t know their rights. They don’t know that a debt collector cannot have them arrested, or wages garnisheed, or home foreclosed on, or children taken away, or name tarnished on a a whim. And when the only person speaking is a full-of-BS debt collector, people unfortunately take it at face value.

I hang up on debt collectors. Who cares about getting out of debt? Millionaires and billionaires have debt. The freakin’ United States is in debt. As soon as you get out of debt you’ll be back in it, so get over it.

Well, everyone should be concerned with getting out of debt. But millionaires? Read the Millionaire Next Door. The average millionaire hasn’t had a car payment for 13 years. They got to where they are – on average – because they got out of debt and could actually build serious wealth. This idea that you’ll always have debt is a falsehood. I don’t give up that easily. The United States is in debt, and its sickening and stupid.

You’re entitled to your opinion and lack of sympathy – I’m not challenging that. But this lackadaisical attitude about always being in debt is just weak.

points to worry about for the estate, too. i suspect it’ll depend on various laws.

I had my ex-husband’s cc company hounding me at my new employer for his late card. He’d opened it the month prior to our divorce being officially signed off on by the AZ court system, so DVFCU felt that was enough to come after me – joint property state. This after he tried to make payment arrangements; told them repeatedly I was never on it (I wasn’t) & that I received no material bene’s from the card or his usage of it. . . .

I do not answer phone calls from numbers not in my phone’s address book. I treat collection notices like toilet paper. If someone intends to collect a debt from me, they are politely informed that they can talk to my attorney. I’m not a scofflaw, I have probably no more than $600 in dubious “obligations” outstanding. I also have a credit rating well above 750. When you no longer fear something, it has no power over you.

Having been stuck in a bad debt situation and being diagnosed bipolar myself, I have some understanding of this. I managed to get myself out of the debt, but the calls day and night, the lack of sleep because all you think of is how to make it all better, it does nothing to help rational thought. I can tell you that I didn’t get nearly close to these threats from collectors, but the incessant phone calls and the lack of help from the collectors made me start listing the solutions.

I was laid off, unemployed, collecting just enough to make my mortgage and keep my lights on and watching my debt increase as the late fees, overlimit fees and finance charges just increase the balances each month. Even if you’re able to make some small payment, if it doesn’t make that minimum, you’re going to get hit with all those charges. It seems like an endless tunnel of despair that you just can’t escape. And when it gets to that point, sometimes suicide seems like the ONLY way out.

I don’t expect people who haven’t been there to understand. You can’t, you’ve never felt those emotions.

@MisterMusante:
Actually if you read the whole post you’ll note that at the bottom it says she was bipolar, aka manic-depressive. In case you weren’t aware, this is a serious psychiatric illness whose symptoms include both depression and impulsivity.

It’s not at all uncommon for sufferers to make poor financial decisions when experiencing a manic episode, and they are also at a much greater risk of suicide than the general population.

How mentally weak does a human being have to be to let a DEBT COLLECTOR drive them to suicide?

I think you hit the nail on the head!

Mentally weak! Mentally infirm! By your words: This person’s mind is weak, or, in this case specifically, this person’s mind does not work correctly: my left arm is weak because of damage done to it in the past. It does not work correctly. This person’s brain is weak for reasons unknown.

So.. while we will never know how weak or how strong the departed is or was… the answer is: at least that weak.

How I envy you and your fully functional brain. Mine doesn’t work right. I spend a lot of my time depressed, and to make it worse, I additionally have a disease that that even fewer people believe in! ADD is a terrible illness, one that your average Joe honestly doesn’t understand. My husband cannot understand why it is I am so twitchy or impatient, or how it is that I can play a game rabidly for 3 hours, then never touch it again. He doesn’t understand so many of the mental quirks I have that are ADHD-typical. Just as I cannot understand how he and his brain work. And worse, most people tell me that I’m not actually ‘sick’, or that I can ‘get over it’ if I ‘put my mind to it’. They don’t understand.

I don’t doubt that there are MANY people who are misdiagnosed with this illness, but there is no doubt in my mind that I am NOT one of those cases.

I don’t know if my ADD was hereditary (possible. my father would seem to have it as well), or chemically induced. Yes, many ADD cases are actually mild cases of BRAIN DAMAGE. Often through usage of toxins (alcohol, drugs, etc) or physical trauma while in the womb or in early childhood. Yeah. My mom drank. My mom used drugs. I don’t believe she stopped for 9 months just because of me.

Yet despite having most of the symptoms, despite medication working very well for me, despite dietary modifications improving me, despite the fact that I bucked up and found coping mechanisms of my own to go through middle and high school without medication… I am still told that I’m fine. that it’s a made up illness. Ha.

Diseases and illnesses of the brain are very very real. Just because your legs work perfectly, doesn’t mean that everyone’s do. Just because you can benchpress an impressive amount doesn’t mean I can. Just because you can’t understand why someone would thing, or react in the way they did or do… doesn’t mean it’s not possible, or that these people should not be pittied, or mourned.

A threat is a threat. It doesn’t matter if the threat was to go to jail or to make a few phone calls to their local ‘buddies’, and break your legs. it’s still a threat.

Also, didn’t her husband NOTICE any of the stuff piling up in the house? Seriously.

regarding this: from the pdf:

Mrs. MacDermid made numerous purchases using her Discover cards. These
purchases ranged from every day necessities such as gas and computer products to
exotic cats.

computer products are a box, if not just a download and nothing more “This? oh it’s freeware.” or “It was in the bargain bin at the store! isn’t it fun?” Gas does’t pile up. as for exotic cats… it’s easy to say that he belonged to a friend, or was a gift, or some such.

Obviously her purchases were such that they were easily not noticed. To be fair, I could probably purchase items myself, and my husband wouldn’t notice if I placed them ‘out of the way’.

Or I could even go for the Lucy Ricardo method: Put it in the closet for several months, then pull it out and wear/use it. and when he asks where it came from say “This old thing? I’ve had it for months!”

@Sam Glover:
“n tort, which is what we are dealing with here, and in criminal law, you take your victim as you find her. If you punch someone with a thin skull, you are liable for whatever damage happens, whether you knew they had a thin skull or not. This is called the “eggshell plaintiff” or “eggshell skull” doctrine. Ms. MacDermid’s bipolar disorder is the equivalent of an eggshell skull when it comes to emotional distress claims.”

TBH driving someone to suicide, had it been a person and not a corporation, would probably be prosecuted as murder 2 if not worse. So literally because of the release of liability implied in articles of incorporation, these fucks are getting away with murder.

These collection places, quite often, hit on the same problems as things like the DS-Max/Midtown Promotions thing you just covered.

Ever hear of the term “moral hazard”? It’s usually used by right-wing economists to describe the “dangers” of a safety net, in that if you give people money for nothing, then they’ll continue to do nothing.

Or something like that.

The sad part, is that example is a drop in the bucket. Moral hazard surrounds us in our day to day workings. But we don’t talk about those. Oh no. We don’t talk about the winks and nods when people are rewarded for committing blatant fraud.

Because that’s what you have here. My understanding is most collections groups do not perform QA on their callers. It’s the wild west. It’s all about how much money you can bring in. Strangely enough, I was told this by a collections person who was calling me for a small debt. He was nice enough about it, gave me a % off of it, letting me know about the profit he and the company were making on it. Then he filled me in on why this other company was calling me at 4 in the morning threating me with jail.

But I could see this happening. The guy, who of course, claims to be an authority in these things, said that if she didn’t pay her husband would be sent to jail. For someone who’s emotionally unstable, that’s just beyond words.

For debt, Suicide should never be considered an option. If your debt is out of control, file for bankruptcy!

– Stops the creditors calls
– Allows you to setup a repayment plan without any more late/overlimit fees.

Also, in most states the moment you put that ring on and are married you assets are shared, your income is shared and your debt is considered shared. My wife had $30,000 of school debt before we got married. Once we were married, I am responsible for paying that debt just as much as she is. That is just the way things are. (The only difference between states on this rule is the %. Some it is 100%, others it is limited to 50%)

While it sounds like the debt collector was not very nice, find me one that is, I don’t think they did anything morally wrong. After all, they are just trying to collect their paycheck to pay their debt.

If you don’t pay your bills you should expect a debt collector to come after you. That is a fact of life. If someone has a health condition that would not allow them to deal with that situation normally, should you ban the person from ever getting credit cards in the first place?

If you answer yes, then how are you supposed to find out if they have a health condition. Can they legally ask you that question? Wouldn’t that be descrimination?

If you answer no, then wouldn’t that be like giving them a loaded gun? As soon as they build the debt who knows how they are going to handle it.

And why stop at credit cards. Should that person be allowed to have any kind of debt? Rent, Mortgage, Car?

Discover is the worst. We had one of their cards, made every payment on time and always paid more than the minimum.

One day, out of the blue, they raised our interest rate to the default rate because they felt that we were over extended and thus a risk. I asked for an appeal, it was denied. I asked for other people to talk to, it was denied. My wife told them that we would not be able to meet their payment demands and they said that we had no choice. So we closed the card and tried to pay it off.

We were put into a bad position by this higher payment amount because now we were having trouble paying it off and meeting our other debts.

So we went into debt consolidation and that’s when Discover got mad. They called relentlessly, making threats, trying to intimidate me and my wife. I finally wrote them demanding that any futher contact by in writing and that they also contact the consolidation service.

They would not give up and tried harassing us. I told the debt firm of this and they had one of their lawyers contact these vermin and all the calls finally stopped.

We received one final email saying that all of this could have been avoided if we had relayed to them that this higher rate would have caused a hardship and worked with them.

That was a few years ago. Now that our credit is sterling again those vermin are once again sending us “open an account with us notices” and I told them on their last marketing piece where they could shove their offers.

Am I the only one who feels _no_ sympathy for this woman? I mean, I feel badly that she commited suicide, but it was HER choice to get into debt in the first place. The people in debt really need to consider this: Why are you in debt? People like to live lavishly, even if they cannot afford it. This woman should have thought of changing her lifestyle before getting into a mountain of debt. Once you’re in debt, yes, it’s very hard to get out. But, this woman should have thought of that before she got into debt. If people can’t manage their finances, then they DESERVE to be put under emotional stress, at the least. The credit card company should be able to do whatever they want to do, short of directly physically harming the person in debt.

If the credit card company said “OK, fine, whatever, you don’t have to pay us back,” or if the government said “We’ll cover your debt,” then what kind of message does that send to people in debt? That the credit card company will let you off the hook, or the government will bail you at? These are both horrible messages to send. The message people should be getting is: Don’t get into debt.

Getting into debt was a choice for this woman. She was not forced into it; she did it out of her own free will. In America, we allow people to act on their own free will because we believe in freedom. People are certainly allowed to sign a contract with a credit card company allowing them to go into debt listing the things that they can do once the person is in debt. It is the person’s freedom of contract.

The person knew what she was getting herself into. It is not a difficult concept to understand that once you are in debt, the credit card companies can do near damn well whatever they want.

In short, I feel no sympathy for this woman, because she got herself into debt on her own free will full well knowing the concequences.

@traezer: “A collector once told my mom she shouldnt have had children if she couldnt afford her bills.”

You know, it’s amazing… I was also once told not to purchase vehicles with payments I couldn’t afford. They even had the audacity to tell me not to go on vacation this year! Something about living within my means…

/sarcasm

They’re called condoms and they are a lot cheaper than having children you can’t afford!

A few years ago, I got a new telephone number from AT&T when I changed appartments. The former owner of the number was apparently wanted for debts, and I would receive upwards of 50 calls a month at times.

Each time the debt people called, I’d ask them to remove my number, as I wasn’t the person they were looking for. They’d ask where she was, and telling them I’d been assigned this number randomly from AT&T didn’t convince them. The same people kept calling back, often starting by yelling at me in Spanish, which I don’t speak.

It all ended when I got a new number, but I was amazed at how the problem persisted for two years–took me that long to figure out it wouldn’t go away. My bad.

@PapaMidnight: it IS of relevance. That’s like saying “well, only .4% of people who take this medication will suffer from heart failure. …. it’s good, let’s go!”

I think you miss my point. My point was that there was something wrong with this lady’s brain.

the poster I was replying to implied that the lady was a pushover, or a wuss for letting her depression or stress get the better of her. He implied that she was somehow less of a person, and not worth mourning because she let a debt collector push her that far. My point was that this is akin to someone talking about how weak and out of shape someone is, if they fell off a building and couldn’t hang on with their gimp arm.

point being.. there WAS something wrong and she should not be scorned for the fact that she couldn’t ‘hold on’. What she did wasn’t right, but how she felt was beyond her control, by and large.