This is my first post to the forum but I have been reading and hanging out for some time.

I train in RyuKyu Kempo and am fascinated with the application of pressure points in "real world" situations.

That being said one of the things that I believe is that before you can hope to use pressure points successfully in a real encounter you need to learn how to fight first. If you are in a situation where you need to defend yourself and try a "knockout technique" that you saw done on either yourself or a nonmoving Uke than you are probably just going to get yourself hurt if not killed.

I feel you have to "master" the basics of fighting before you can think about pp's in a real situation. What does everyone think of this? Also I believe that pp's are just another tool to use, another player to bring to the table. All of the pp techniques that we learn in class come from The Dragon Society's 50 Technique Manual and while they are not the end all be all of self defense I think they are realistic in that they are based on a moving opponent and provide a good foundation in small joint manipulation and pp strikes. They are a good jumping off point.

Regarding pressure point knockouts I have to admit that I am fascinated by them not only from a self defense point of view but also by the science, both Eastern and Western, behind them.

That raises some questions in my mind regarding pressure points and the differences between men and women and their application / success. Are their issues of polarity or yin and yang when pressure points are applied woman/woman woman/man or man/woman. I have been knocked out on various ocassions, but with equal success, using a Yang Wood point like GB20 or a Yin point like Stomach5 by both men and women. Factoring in issues of polarity and Yin and Yang shouldn't one point be more effective than another on me depending on who is striking, a woman or man? Also how much does body type factor in. I seem to go out equally easy with both a wood point (GB20) and an Earth point (ST5)

I am a long time member of the DSI and I am very familar with the manual you are refering to. It does a real good job of explaining the concepts. The concepts of polarity and it's real effects is one of the things I feel is more theory than real application. Yin Yang translates to more than 50,000 things and you could get too deep into the theory. The body types described in various books and charts were describing ASIAN people. So when looking at skin color, eye shape, nose you must remeber it is describing Asian and not all ethnic types. I would also recommend DO NOT let anyone knock you out it is not helthly. May I ask where you train I enjoy meeting other students of Rick and Tom teachings.

[QUOTE] If you are in a situation where you need to defend yourself and try a "knockout technique" that you saw done on either yourself or a nonmoving Uke than you are probably just going to get yourself hurt if not killed. [/QUOTE]

I don't necessarily think you’re going to get yourself hurt or killed; you should just not expect to get the same result. With the KOs, too many people start to believe that one technique will get them out of every situation. That is when they get into trouble. They get into a fight, use the technique, it doesn't work so they stand there in disbelief while they get the crap beat out of them.

[QUOTE] I feel you have to "master" the basics of fighting before you can think about pp's in a real situation. What does everyone think of this? [/QUOTE]

I think you are exactly right. If a person can't fight, it won't matter if knows PPS or not.

[QUOTE] I have been knocked out on various ocassions, but with equal success, using a Yang Wood point like GB20 or a Yin point like Stomach5 by both men and women. [/QUOTE]

Unless I am misunderstanding you, let me clear up something. The Stomach meridian is YANG, NOT Yin. All of the meridians on the head are Yang: Stomach, Large Intestine, Small Intestine, Triple Warmer, Gall Bladder, and Bladder. The yin points are mostly used as setup: Spleen, Liver, Kidney, Heart, Pericardium, or Lung. The only person I've ever seen do a Yin KO is Dillman. They are supposedly extremely dangerous.

[QUOTE] Factoring in issues of polarity and Yin and Yang shouldn't one point be more effective than another on me depending on who is striking, a woman or man? [/QUOTE]

According to some TCM used in MA, the right side of a mans body is positive (+) and the left is negative (-). A woman is the just the opposite. So if a man was to strike another man on the left side of the body with his right hand he should use an open hand technique. Positive open hand on the negative left side of the body. There are many theories on this including changing the polarity. If I make a fist my right (+) hand is now (-). If I lift my right foot off the floor the fist is know back to (+). It gets extremely complicated. These in-depth theories should only be used as an explanation of why we do something a certain way, and not something someone should be thinking about during a fight.

[QUOTE] Also how much does body type factor in. I seem to go out equally easy with both a wood point (GB20) and an Earth point (ST5) [/QUOTE]

GB20 and St5 will affect most people, but not all. Body types are mostly used to give you a general idea where to attack using the cycle of distruction. For example: a body type Wood (a tall thin person), Wood borrows through Earth. Go for those points: Stomach and Speen. You can also use Metal cuts Wood. Attack Lung and Large Intestine.

Don't get caught up in the KO thing, I was DKI for several years, and that was all that we did for a while. Kempocos is correct, being KOed isn't the best thing for you. Take a look at some of these retired boxers today who can't put together a complete sentence, and that was before they got KOed. LOL!

My job can sometimes be dangerous so I actually get to use my martial arts training a few times a year in live situations. The only knock-outs I have done have been with consenting ukes in martial arts seminars. I practice pressure points regularly. The practical benefit to me of PP training in the real world away from the dojo has been that it makes my tuite work better and it makes my striking more effective. Not every struggle needs to end in a knock-out. Actually, if I knocked people out on my job, I'd probably loose my job. I just need to contain people safely and PP help me do that.

underdog - "The practical benefit to me of PP training in the real world away from the dojo has been that it makes my tuite work better and it makes my striking more effective. Not every struggle needs to end in a knock-out."

A wise statement. Do you study Body Alarm Reaction information. If not it may be something you would benefit from. The studies I have seen date as far back as 1928 and are not limited to MA.

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry if I was misleading in my first post. I don't train under Tom Muncy and Rick Moneymaker. The club where I do train utilizes some of the material made available by the Dragon Society but we have no affiliation with DSI DKI KI or anyother organization. I spent the majority of my misguided youth chasing belts ranks and trophies in various TKD schools. In my late teens I started training in Muay Thai and still do to this day. It provided me a more fullfilling although rougher experience than TKD. I wanted to try something different and found a club (it's more of a club in that there are no belt ranking tests etc than a traditional school) We study a mix of styles including RyuKyu Kempo / Kyusho BJJ and even some Muay Thai.

Thank you sincerely for your suggestion about pressure point knockouts. I was under the impression that if done "correctly" with proper revival techniques that they were not dangerous. I guess I got taken in by all the information out there on the web that focuses on pp knockouts that I forgot some common sense. Just becuase everyone is doing it doesn't mean it is right or good.

I was under the impression that a pp ko was different than getting knocked out by a punch or kick. I have been knocked out in Muay Thai matches and I have to say that pressure point KOs feel different for lack of a better way to describe it. Two of the members of my club are MDs and I am a Nurse I will definately look into this more.

I have to say I feel a little foolish or taken, but that is not a bad thing. Feeling foolish I think leads one to make changes for the better in their life.

Jill , I do my training with DSI since I do not agree with DILLMAN or KI approach, altough I know alot more about Dillmans. I used to train in and prefer Oyatas linage and if I could get to one of his dojo's I would. He has some info for sale at http://www.ryu-te-supplies.com.

The KO revival I have seen done in almost every seminar is not correct, ever notice they use the same revival regardless of the technique. In many cases the person drops legs crossed and fall into a seated postion.

There is a great book by Rand Caldwell on the vital point info in the BUBISHI, he has done a lot of medical research and explains things real well. check out the articiles at www.combatkyusho.com

As a female, yes, in live encounter, I'm going to hit things because they hurt or incapacitate. The number of strikes I will get in on a larger male perpetrator who has intent is going to be few and I'm not wasting them setting up something that probably won't happen. Each strike I get in has to be thought of as the one that will save my life.

Most importantly, remember that pressure points is NOT a style. It is to be added to your style. Learn the best techniques you have available to you. Practice all those drills. When you have those down, you will see that the pressure points are built in.

That is the time to be more aware and focus on them. That is when being more intentional about the pressure points will facilitate your technique.

The question was asked originally about women and pressure points. As a female, my experience is that it is much easier to implement a (tuite) technique when I am aware of the pressure points. It directs my attention and helps me misdirect the qi of my opponent.

If you subscribe to the Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) paradigm in vital point usage, then whether a point is Yin or Yang is quite important. Whether a point is Yin or Yang indicates if you are effecting the energy of a bowel or an organ...and this can and is quite important. When utilizing either a Yin or a Yang point, this is going to cause the body to go into a different physical position ("open" or "closed") and is quite important. Knowing whether a point is Yin or Yang indicates whether you want to enhance or retard the flow of energy in the strike (read: angle and direction of the attack). I could go on and on with the different layers of importance.

If you subscribe to a totally Western approach to the use of vital points, then none of this makes much difference and will make it much harder to get out of the "monkey see...monkey do" phase of using them.