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It's hard to drive a Bus or a car from the back seat. A person whose opinion you would respect stated that you have to be close to the dog to pull, pulling is much harder from the back seat for most of us.

Thanks Doc. The back seat is exactly how I'd feel.

The dogs and handler in Bon's "set 2" of pictures shows what appears to me to be a handler and two different dogs who are accustomed-to and comfortable with that configuration. As such, it probably works for them.

I personally feel glad that my dog is comfortable with my knee at his shoulder and is not sneaking a step or two ahead just to keep out in front of me. For me personally, it feels, as KJR mentioned, like very subtle movements - mostly with my outside leg, can have pretty dramatic impact on my dog's attention, alignment and focus - when we are dogshoulder-handlerknee aligned.

Earlier, someone mentioned the idea of getting the dog lined up, then "stepping back" once he's lined up. I remember doing this exact thing at a workshop. The guy who has won more trials than I ever will said "You had him lined up perfectly! Why did you then move back and pull him off???! " Actually, that very mark is my avatar picture.

I prefer to run dogs high up on their shoulder. Makes it easier to make fine corrections to their line with out a lot of fuss. Works especially well on lines for blinds.. I find it much harder to make subtle corrections if I am not well up on the dog.

I prefer to run dogs high up on their shoulder. Makes it easier to make fine corrections to their line with out a lot of fuss. Works especially well on lines for blinds.. I find it much harder to make subtle corrections if I am not well up on the dog

I think you ment,,,it makes it easier for you to make fine corrections without much fuss.

If I ran a dog from that high up i'd never get him to settle in and lock. It would respond to every breath I take, and more than likely any arm movement what so ever would change its positioning.

So that style could be said to be counter to the way I train. Thats all it is.style.
I like how Don Romeins position,,,,it seems more comfortable to me.

I just can't see a right or wrong way of doing this. As long as the dog responds to you than thats the right way.

I think people fight to try to emmulate icons. I think we should do whats comfortable for us.

If we can't make it work that way or if it affects something down the road,,,,then change.. my 02%

On the "no hand send" for the retired memory birds: I used to "always" put a hand down for all memory birds with Bus. I stopped this when coached to avoid it in Summer of 2009 at a workshop in Montello.

We were urged to not use a hand on memory birds, in general, unless it was to drive the dog deep. In both of the retired marks we ran, they were plopping right out in a "want to go to" spot (in my opinion). I did not want to drive the dog deep, due to the location of the marks and the fact that there were roads behind the marks. (and no, there is no fence between the mark and that busy road - to answer someone who mentioned that)

Great analysis of the hand down vs. no hand down debate. (The other debate that handlers always seem to have his "do I put the dog on my right, or on my left?"). I'll give you another scenario to think about.

I was once running an AA stake, and there was an under the arc bird that was "butt-pucker tight" (for the handler and the dog) under the arc - moderate length. Dogs were avoiding going under the arc like the plague. This was the 4th series so it was a tad important. Dogs were going behind the gun, and heading out to no mans land to the left. Dogs were doing far right, and getting pushed so long their either went into another no mans land or to the right hand long gun. (Then try to get the dog back to that mark - no way!). So, on that particular mark, I did put my hand down, to show the dog it was important, but, I gave it a moderate send instead of a loud send. It worked. That was my attainment for the day....

Okay, not that I have much room to talk, but my Butthead has been a work in progress....not only him, but myself, too.

I have learned I like to be up on him, not back by the hip. This is not how we started out together and he was definitely driving the bus when I was back by his hip. Also from a "flow" perspective when setting up for the marks and while they are being thrown, I find my self more comfortable being up on his shoulder and my movements to help move him from gun to gun is smoother for both of us - i send less mixed signals.

Of course I do manage to screw it up from time to time but we are a work in progress.

Also I have found out I can line him up easier on blinds by being up by his shoulder...

Great analysis of the hand down vs. no hand down debate. (The other debate that handlers always seem to have his "do I put the dog on my right, or on my left?"). I'll give you another scenario to think about.

I was once running an AA stake, and there was an under the arc bird that was "butt-pucker tight" (for the handler and the dog) under the arc - moderate length. Dogs were avoiding going under the arc like the plague. This was the 4th series so it was a tad important. Dogs were going behind the gun, and heading out to no mans land to the left. Dogs were doing far right, and getting pushed so long their either went into another no mans land or to the right hand long gun. (Then try to get the dog back to that mark - no way!). So, on that particular mark, I did put my hand down, to show the dog it was important, but, I gave it a moderate send instead of a loud send. It worked. That was my attainment for the day....

What cool timing. I just....JUST got off the phone with a FT friend who painted the same sort of picture.

To paraphrase what I was just told, (this stuff fascinates me) my source said he/she will use the hand on memory birds: 1) To Drive the dog "deep" on a punch bird. 2) To unconfuse a dog who seems to have trouble locking in, focusing, or remembering the memory bird. 3) To emphatically show the dog the right way to go, when the conditions show a strong tendency for previous dogs' ( or the obvious intentions of the dog at your side ) to go other than the "right" way.

3) To emphatically show the dog the right way to go, when the conditions show a strong tendency for previous dogs' ( or the obvious intentions of the dog at your side ) to go other than the "right" way.

OK Chris, short retired but the dogs want to go left of some obstacle. Dogs that went left haven't been successful. Your dog wants to line up left. The hand drives them deep but emphasizes the right line. Whatcha do, hand or no hand?

In the past, I have used my hand to line them and then taken it away and stood up, trying not to loom over them which seems to pressure them driving them deep, waited them out making sure they're committed to the line and then send them soft. Does work ......... Sometimes

Howard NiemiYou really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

Thanks Chris
I liked the video,,,It must be nice to have acess to little birdies,,,,, who am I to argue with an Icon in the retriever sports.

I do have to ask though
Has anyone ever won an open with the dog in the butt/heel of foot position.?
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Just a thought to throw in to the mix
Handling is Communication ,,,, not just when you choose to blow a whistle or not to..
A dog doesn't have to see your hand over his head to know its there.
Very interesting topic.

I put the % thingy to bring a smile,,I'm smiling that you noticed it. I tried to kill 2 birds with 1 symbol.