Tuesday, January 08, 2008

So, China Dirt #3

I shall give some attempt at an answer anyhow.

The problem is – and this can be clearly seen on Chinadirt – that expat women still hold to the Western mode of dating.

“Running Man” ends:-But if you ever stop running for just a moment and look around, you'll find that all you have are quirky travel stories, boxes filled with pictures of exotic lands, a map punctured with holes, but nobody real to hold while you stand still.But this is no answer at all. He doesn’t want that. He’ll never want it, and nor will most of us guys here – certainly not in the terms of ‘real’ which you offer; that ‘real’ is a straightjacket, stifling, repellent. Did you think he was trusty and faithful? Did you see no further than his façade, his smooth and tolerant manner? Did you suppose yourself advancing on real ground toward a real heroic man? It was all maya, illusion. ‘Somebody to hold us while we stand still’? – oh, please!

Guys like him, guys like me, guys like us – we who let you down so deep and often – we know romance is illusion, and the more we fuck around, the more clear we are about that.

This life corrupts us; we can’t go back to your limitations of ‘the one’ and ‘true love.’ When we stand still we hear time’s winged chariot – and we run once more. We see the deserts of vast eternity. And this is just why Running Man wants his box of pictures, his map punctured with holes, far more that he’ll ever want you. They are fragments he has shored against his ruin. They are to be his memories when he is old, the proof he existed, lived.

He, like me, like us - we see this woman, that, you, her, she…. Interchangeable, a pack of cards, now you, now you; each an individual, sure, within a certain set of limitations, but in the end shuffleable, changeable. There is nobody ‘real’ to hold us; we each exist alone.

You are not going to change us; it is too late for that. And while Chinadirt as a whole is admirably unconcerned with trying change us, but rather only expose us, some individual contributors surely wish to.

But they are playing by rules we have abandoned -- hence their endless disappointment in us. And because we have left that system, those rules, behind, Western women are generally invisible to us.

Believe it, when I and a thousand others like me walk down the road we do not even see the white women; you are nearly always just invisible to us. An absence, empty air. And on the rare occasions we do see you, all we see – forgive me – is how you are nothing as slender, lithe or trim as a Chinese woman. We look at your thighs, your belly, your butt and think ‘thank fuck’ and ‘I will never date Western again.’

Now I most firmly believe anything a man can do a woman can do; and so perhaps the solution is that Western women should switch over, just like we have. An obvious solution, of course, which is why it has already occurred to expat women. Ah, but -

Not sure if you've tried it but finding a good Chinese man is pretty hard. It's not like the streets are exactly filled with good-looking, funny, socially adjusted Chinese men are they? We're not against dating Chinese guys but you're attracted to who you're attracted to. Lets be honest, Chinese women are often MUCH better looking than Chinese guys. We'd dare say its a 10 to 1 ratio of hot Chinese women to hot Chinese guys. Yeah, you can blabber on about how that's SO superficial but attraction is important. More often than not the hot, funny, cool Chinese guy, already has an even hotter, cooler and funnier Chinese girlfriend so how can we even compete?

Personality is important too and oftentimes many single Chinese guys (and expats) are lacking in that arena as well. If there is a hot, available non-douchbaggy Chinese guy please let us know. We'll be more than happy to date him.The Chinadirt author of the above is right that attraction is important, and there’s nothing superficial about it. Now I have at times been somewhat critical of Chinese men. But that is because I am a haphazard and slapdash writer. The truth is that China really does have plenty of cool guys, stylish, witty, assured – ride the tube, walk the streets, there they are; sure, they are generally younger, under 30, more often under 25, but that need not hold back any woman. If we guys can date younger, why not women?

Perhaps what Western women do not always understand is that they are just as attractive to Chinese guys as Chinese girls are to us. Now most of the reason we guys chase Chinese women is lust, it is the younger, firmer, sexier body. And you Western women can’t compete there. But lust is not the whole of it; there is pride, too. To have the young, beautiful woman on our arm, that’s our peacock tail, but displayed for other men alone. Look at me; look what I have. When expat meets expat we see this in each other’s eye, in each other’s stride, the slight falter, the hesitation as we pass each other.

There is a card game, ‘Top Trumps,’ each deck of which (and there are various decks to collect) focuses on one area alone – it might be cars, or ships, or tanks, or trucks. The car set, for example, will show various supermodel cars, anatomized; and the players play card against card, choosing one from the various parameters on each – engine size, top speed and so on - with the winner being decided by the better specification. And this is why – when expat meets expat – we hesitate, just a little; for we are still children, still playing ‘Top Trumps.’ Only now – of course – we measure the woman on the other’s arm. Looks? Height? Breasts? Hips? Butt? Dress sense? Deportment? Who’s better, who’s best? We who have been here long enough play the game incessantly – and we know which of our fellow men are new to the game by the grade of woman on their arm. And we are also showing off to those outside the game, the temporary tourists, the guys with the woman of a similar age on their arm. Oh, how we smirk inwardly at you and preen ourselves then!

But this works the other way round too. To a Chinese guy, a Western woman has this same cachet. You’re his status symbol. You’re his prize.

This does not make you a possession. It makes you powerful. So you rightly despondent Western women should play on it, should do just what we Western men do; we know our money and skin give us prestige, and we use it. Why not you?

However – venturing into a generalization, unwise as all generalizations are – I think it is fair to say that most Chinese guys simply would not know how to go about pursuing a Western woman.

Now back home a guy that is too timid to approach you probably would not be worth dating. But you have to dump that Western attitude, just like we have. Fuck, yes, work on superficial appearance, go chat up that good looking guy just because he’s good looking. Once he gets over his shock at being approached by you (and it will be a great shock to him indeed) perhaps you’ll find a guy who’ll treat you a fuck sight better than the average Western expat will.

So try it. Do what we do. Approach the guy, make the first move. Forget the Western expat community, largely made up of bigots, fools and moral and emotional cripples as it is, and see that all the choices China offers to us, it offers to you, too.

71 comments:

"this is no answer at all. He doesn’t want that. He’ll never want it, and nor will most of us guys here – certainly not in the terms of ‘real’ which you offer; that ‘real’ is a straightjacket, stifling, repellent. Did you think he was trusty and faithful? Did you see no further than his façade, his smooth and tolerant manner? Did you suppose yourself advancing on real ground toward a real heroic man? It was all maya, illusion. ‘Somebody to hold us while we stand still’? – oh, please!

Guys like him, guys like me, guys like us – we who let you down so deep and often – we know romance is illusion, and the more we fuck around, the more clear we are about that."

Chinabounder - It sounds cliched, but surely there has to be more to life than bad sex with women who have all the personality of a doormat?

Romance is for children, and anyone who tries to make it the centre of their lives is destined for disappointment, but it hardly makes sense to waste your life because of this.

You know, of course, what the final genesis of the expat-playboy lifestyle is - It's cursing your luck that the English school you teach at is going out of business (like those guys who worked at NOVA in Japan). It's drinking yourself into a stupour every night whilst your hair falls out and your waistline balloons. It's eventually reaching retirement age with nothing in the bank and no chance of another go at things.

I think you know all of this anyway, but I don't think the ladies over at Chinadirt realise that they are headed in a similar direction, and only by loosing their ridiculously childish assumptions about both expat and local men that they will ever be able to make a real life for themselves in China. I, on the other hand, don't particularly feel the zest for the expat life that I used to, and will be content where I am for the time being.

to Chinabounder: I'm pretty much in a agreement with you in principle but I think everybody has different tastes. I personally like more curvaceous women, so the typical small-breasted, flat-bottomed Chinese girl doesn't excite me at all.

Therefore, when it comes to Chinese vs expat women I've seem some very tasty looking expat women in Beijing that I would surely chase and the occasional buxom Chinese girl. So they expat women are not invisible to me at all. I would critically appraise their assets the same way I would any woman of any race.

The Chinese woman, however, is more likely to be flattered and impressed by an attempted seduction whereas the expat might react like the writers on Chinadirt. Meaning negatively with contempt and derision.

So, in that respect the Chinese woman is probably the better bet for success.

This is all academic discussion for me because I'm in a committed relationship with a Mongolian girl. She's got the Asian face but a curvy body, so I feel pretty lucky, all-in-all.

It's great to see you write again. As for the Chinadirt series, big problem for these women...or.. women in general is that, they don't realize, the human rules never trimph nature laws. Men are made to fuck around, yet from the establishments of societies(started by women, in many cases), humans made rules to idealize the world, hoping the world's going to be just like it, and gradually it's planted in most people's mind to follow it. Yet nobody.. NOBODY can triumph nature laws. We keep making the so called mistakes, knowing we were from the beginning.

I want to address an attitude on your blog that I've detected, which is that so many of these Asian women finally have 'a choice', and are overwhelmingly choosing White expats because they are objectively better than Asian men.

Anyone who has spent any significant time in any Asian country knows this is total BS. Many of you know that there are plenty of unattractive, bald, fat, socially awkward, nerdy, or homely-looking White men in Asia with young pretty Asian girls whose faces are beaming over their White trophy. Some of you know that you were social rejects in your home nations.

You guys need to acknowledge a lot of your success is from Asian inferiority complex, self hate, and White worship. It has nothing to do with oppression, or Asian men, it is because you are Caucasian, and right now many Asians have some messed up ideas where they place Caucasians on a higher level than Asian. It has nothing to do with any superior quality you have or some major flaw in Asian men. This similar type of White worship thinking is also evident in various countries around the world that were victims of colonialism.

I know some of you will fervently deny this, after all it is much more ego-boosting to now acknowledge this fact, however as much as you don't want to believe it, this is the truth.

Are Asian men more sexist and chauvinistic compared to Middle Eastern, Latin, Anglo/American, Jewish orthodox, or Christian fundamentalist men?

In my opinion, yes Asian countries, just like all countries in the world, have gender problems and issues that go back a long time in many cultures. However, Western mass media constantly stereotypes, and thus influences millions, including Asian females, on the idea that Asian men are somehow way more sexist or chauvinist or oppressive than the average male.

This gives some White males what I call ‘White Knight’ syndrome, and also gives some self-hating, brainwashed Asian girls a convenient excuse to hide their White worship. Hell, almost all of Uncle Tom Amy Tan’s books, like ‘Joy Luck Club’, pander to White audiences by reinforcing this sexist oppressive stereotype, and paint White men as the saviors. ‘Miss Saigon’ is another example. It’s like feminism gone totally byserk because it’s mixed in with White worship and Asian men bashing, which feminists of other typically cultures don’t do (specifically blame their culture of men instead of see it as a global gender issue across many cultures). For example, when’s the last major movie you saw by a Middle Eastern feminist that totally bashes M.E. men, and where all the women marry White guys? When's the last time you heard a Caucasian woman cite Christianity or Judaism for why White males are oppressive and why they only date nonWhite?

Additionally, some superiority complex White Knights, and their brainwashed Asian feminists, bring up foot binding, as evidence of horrible Asian male oppression. Yet when is the last time you heard White men accused of being sexist and oppressive for tight suffocating corsets, or for metal chastity belts, or even painful plastic surgery in modern times? Foot binding was sad, but just like with beauty treatments White women used to do and still do, these kinds of practices are really pushed by other women, thinking that’s what men like (which is a global gender issue, not a specifically ‘horrible Asian men’ issue)

From my own personal experience which is based on mostly Chinese families, I think the myth is false. In Asia, most TV commercials cater to women, you never see advertisements for things that guys like, most of the movies are chick flicks or soap opera type stories, and all entertainment has a ‘cutesy’ girly feel. I’ve also seen almost all Chinese moms totally boss and control their sons, and totally control their husbands. Asian sons are seen as the mules and workhorses of the family and have way less freedom than girls, most sons are forced into conservative jobs by their mothers while the daughters have more freedom to pursue art or music or acting or writing.

In Chinese culture, women never change their last names, every married Chinese woman I ever met who was addressed by her Maiden name in Mandarin, never the husband’s last name like in Western society. Chinese women on a per capita basis work full-time more than White women. Chinese women are often-times depicted as strong heroines in Chinese films, whereas White women are basically the sex interest in most White movies. In heavily populated developed places like Shanghai, most men do all the cooking and cleaning (don't believe me, look it up or ask around).

I will say I don’t know enough about Japan to deny that they may be sexist, however I would contend that that it’s related to them emulating Western/White sexism and Western chauvinism going all the way back to the days of Meiji Restoration and emulating Whites (and not catching as much after the West changed due to feminism).

@Anonymous - I doubt any of this will concern Chinabounder (or any other expat) that much. Are Chinese people self-hating? Perhaps, but they hide it behind staunch nationalism and xenophobia. Are Chinese men sexist? Only if you believe that someone who dreams of keeping a wife and more than one mistress and does not care if none of these relationships is based on love is a misogynist. Are there perhaps double standards in the way that westerners see Chinese society? Of course, but then a lot of the criticism is valid even if there are some double standards at work.

The thing you must accept is that many Chinese women find a sense of liberation in their relationships with foreign men. Valid or invalid, the sense of freedom they have in conducting a relationship with someone who demands far less of them than the traditional Chinese male would cannot be denied.

[Are Chinese men sexist? Only if you believe that someone who dreams of keeping a wife and more than one mistress and does not care if none of these relationships is based on love is a misogynist.]

This kind of thinking is simplistic and moronic and here's why. We all know there are TONS of executives in England and America and in other Western nations who have mistresses, cheat on their wives, and are basically total a*sholes. There are also frequent incidences of women in Western nations who are raped, gang banged, treated like trash, confined into roles, etc. In America there are only like 2 female CEO's in the entire Fortune 500, only 8% of women in all F500 Board of Directors. Does this give me license to generalize all White men as sexist arrogant pigs? Basically, stop acting as if your own sh*t don't stink.

The fact that you guys take specific examples like this and generalize hundreds of millions of Chinese men, shows just how much of a superiority complex some of you have, as well as how you use specific examples to reinforce your pre-defined White Knight viewpoints, as well as closet racism.

Look, let me break this down for you, I know of only one Chinese man of means who I know doesn't cheat on their wife. Every single other one has at least some bit on the side. Sure, folks in the UK do play around, but not to that extent, and they're far more likely to suffer a break-up as a result.

Most of wives and children of these men know what they're up to as well, their sons see it as ordinary and their wives see it as almost a right.

You can call me sexist and say that I'm generalising, but I didn't know any of this stuff before I went to China. It wasn't like I just made it up or had some idea of superiority, no, it was told to me by Chinese people themselves and backed up by plenty of experience.

It genuinely has been my experience that the majority of Chinese marriages are simply joyless marriages of convenience. If you think differently, then fine, but that doesn't change the essential depressed and resigned attitude that the majority of Chinese women have towards their marriages. Men of means don't really care because they can engage in endless sexual adventures outside of their marriage without negative consequences. The women, however, are trapped. The outlet provided by divorce is neither economically nor socially feasible in China.

Shout 'sexist', 'racist', and 'superiority complex' all you like, it won't change the basic facts.

Anonymous said… ‘…it is because you are Caucasian, and right now many Asians have some messed up ideas where they place Caucasians on a higher level than Asian … I know some of you will fervently deny this, after all it is much more ego-boosting to now acknowledge this fact, however as much as you don't want to believe it, this is the truth.’

Tut, of course it’s the truth. See my Conrad quote below. I’ve said exactly this kind of thing many times throughout my blog. But male oppression within China is still part of the picture.

Bottom line is, some of you guys sound pathetic with your White Knight mentality, constantly obsessed with posting the latest 'Asian woman wronged' or example of the 'evil Asian man' in your mind, in order to further boost your ego and make you think this is why you have such an easy time getting tail in China, when it's not the real reason.

Just be men about it and confront the truth, some (or many) of you KNOW about White worship, and are social predators in Asia taking advantage of the inferiority complex many Asians have towards Caucasian people. I know it ruins the carefully constructed house of cards you've built in your mind to come up with all sorts of fake reasons to boost your ego, but you have to realize pretty much everyone despises social predators like you.

Picking at individual instances of Asian men being a*sholes doesn't prove the pre-defined stereotype you have about Asian sexism. If this were really the root cause, then you would see similar White worship in the Middle East or Latin America or anywhere else in the world. You would also see White women who experienced sexist White men, fleeing to nonWhite men. But we don't see any of these cases in a large degree.

Face it: most of it is about WHITE WORSHIP, not any lame ego-boosting reason some of you social rejects come up with, to explain your success with Asian women. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out, just look at the many disproportionately attractive pairs in Asia, a young Asian girl with a White guy who is either fat, old, bald, socially awkward, or homely-looking, and the girl's face is beaming as if she won a prize or something.

1. ‘…it is because you are Caucasian, and right now many Asians have some messed up ideas where they place Caucasians on a higher level than Asian … I know some of you will fervently deny this, after all it is much more ego-boosting to NOT acknowledge this fact, however as much as you don't want to believe it, this is the truth.’

2. Picking at individual instances of Asian men being a*sholes doesn't prove the pre-defined stereotype you have about Asian sexism, or explain your dating success. If this were really the root cause, then you would see similar oppressed women in the Middle East or Latin America or anywhere else in the world flocking to White men. You would also see White women who experienced sexist White men fleeing to nonWhite men. But we don't see any of these cases in a large degree.

It has nothing to do with oppression or sexism, this is a pretty unique phenomenon of Asian people with White worship, which is derived from confucian values of hierarchy and social value ingrained in Asian people's minds. Currently tons of Asian people see Whites above Asians on the social ladder, so are more open to even the most unattractive White male's advances.

Another thing I forgot to add, was aside from the wealth of Whites, White men also are 'branded' as the best constantly in Western and global mass media. This further feeds and brainwashes Asian people, especially those who consume Western entertainment or literature.

"And we are also showing off to those outside the game, the temporary tourists, the guys with the woman of a similar age on their arm. Oh, how we smirk inwardly at you and preen ourselves then!"

Perhaps that's not how people "outside the game" see you. They see you older white men in China who go after 20 year old "docile Chinese girls" as terrible tragedies who can't deal with women your own maturity.

Look, Anonymous, you’re just wasting my time and yours. On the whole I agree with you. But you are blind to the diversity of the situation in Asia. Sure, there are plenty of instances of what you describe about white guys here, but you oversimplify it. I assure you Chinese male oppression is very much a part of life here. It’s rampant, it’s huge. Every single woman I have talked to about this says the same. All of them. All.

And the older white males in China who date younger are perfectly aware they could not do the same back home. Duh. You don’t need to get all ranty to tell ‘us’ this. But if you think every man here who dates younger is a social reject – well, perhaps you should think about who’s really being negative to Chinese people. You think Chinese women are that stupid? As for saying white men are branded as ‘best’ in the media – you think that’s news?

And can’t you please at least choose a name if you’re going to comment? You don’t need a Blogger account, don’t need to give your email – you just make up a nickname. Where it says ‘nickname.’

"It’s rampant, it’s huge. Every single woman I have talked to about this says the same. All of them. All. "

Hmmm. I think this statement could be considered in the context of the sample of the women you talk to. These women, as you said are talking to white guys because they feel "oppressed", but what about women that don't talk to white guys much or who don't speak English? Might they also be agreeing with your question, on whether they feel oppressed by males, just to project a "damsel in distress" to pique your curiosity and ego?

It was mentioned in one of anonymous' comments that there are plenty of women in China who boss their husbands and sons around. The media caters more to women, because in many households, men bring home the bacon but the women control the purse strings and thus, spending power. This is the other reality that I see. The mistresses, the weaker Chinese females are oppressed, sure. But the first wives, the many mothers, still control the women. This flies in the face of "male oppression" being the overwhelming attitude. Without an actual survey of a good cross-section of the population, including the non-English speaking ones and the ones that don't hang out in pubs looking for white guys, it can't be qualified on whether male oppression is the overwhelmingly prevailent attitude.

I don't deny sexism and oppression happens in China, as it happens ALL OVER THE WORLD. But some of you still don't understand this phenomenon of young Asian girls with unattractive White guys has nothing to do with oppression, if it were the real reason, you would see women of other races flocking to other men in a noticeable way too, but we don't see this. Excuses like oppresion, shortness, culture, etc, are lame reasons by Asian women to disguise White worship (cognitive dissonance and self deception).

The true root cause is White worship and self hate, which causes some Asian women to say anything to fuel the egos of their White Trophies, including bash their own culture and people. You can see this even in the United States. There are several Uncle Tom Asian writers and actreses who, in order to gain favor with White males, will further perpetuate this White Knight crap. Amy Tan and Lucy Liu are good examples of these kinds of people, they are modern-day Uncle Toms who gain self esteem from playing up to the pre-defined worldviews of White men. Amy Tan grew up in the US, it's clear from her books she incorrectly makes up Chinese phrases and facts, that she thinks Chinese people in China are like. Asian women know White guys love this crap, look at 'Miss Saigon', 'Joy Luck Club', countless other examples that Whites love to pay money to watch those 'evil Asian men' and the White Knight savior archetype.

Signed,'American' (the anonymous poster of most of the recent comments)

Here is another example. I know for a fact there are tons of sexist and chauvinistic White men in the American Bible Belt South. Women still aren't allowed to preach in churches, it's still dominated by men, they constantly quote the Bible where it says women are second class, subservient to men, that they came from Adam's rib. There are also more than frequent news about some woman raped, or abused, or physically beat by her husband. Now, because of this oppression, you don't see White women going out in droves to date nonWhite men, especially less attractive nonWhite men. This is an example to show that it is way more about White worship among Asian women, than any sexist or oppression reason. Sure it may exist in China, but it's idiotic to generalize all Chinese men as that way, and also it's dumb to use this as a reason when more often than not it's some self hating Asian girl who will say or do anything to fuel your ego and be accepted by you.

Another example is poor areas such as Russia or Eastern Europe. If a person goes there and women out of your league are all over you, don't think it's because you are better than the men over there aside from the basic fact that you have more money, which is the main reason. Don't be such a loser that you come up with all sorts of reasons to inflate your ego, constantly find and post articles that bash those cultures or men, when the root cause is that you are social predator among very poor women.

Among many White male social predators in Asia, both situations apply. You are Caucasian, and you have money. Don't try to use any other reason to inflate your ego, because they are lame reasons that are not the root cause.

Neither I nor Chinabounder (whoever he or the group who supposedly make him up are) is American, perhaps you should remember this. To be honest, you seem somewhat obsessed with negative portrayals of Chinese culture in American media, do you somehow imagine that the same thing s are found in the Chinese media? China has not even been open to foreign media for that long (only really since the nineties). I have never read a book by Amy Tan or seen 'The Joy Luck Club', but I have seen Chinese films like '手机' and '天浴', which did at least try to grapple with the negative aspects of Chinese sexual attitudes (although 手机 seemed to want to blame it on modern life).

You also seem to view China as some kind of feminist Utopia, this is not even nearly true. Let me give you some examples: The woman who told me that her husband was a good one because he never beat his wife, unlike her friend's husbands; the 16 year old son of a Taiwanese businessman who said that everybody knew that his father had at least one mistress on the mainland; the bored housewife who told me that she barely ever sees her husband and knows that he has more than one mistress; the 21-year old woman who had been married off to a 51-year-old friend of her father's, who told me that she thinks about pop stars when she has sex with him, which is as rarely as she can get away with; the 24-year-old woman who was the mistress of a 66-year-old Hong Kong man who visited her and the son he had had by her once every two weeks, all with the knowledge of his wife; the female student who admitted having sex with a lecturer in an agreed exchange for better marks; the female student who offered to suck the cock of a friend of mine in exchange for a passing grade, something she had obviously done before quite often before; the university professor who carried on an affair with our married office secretary in the same university as his wife worked and his daughter studied, and tried to kill her when she no longer wanted to have anything to do with him - is this enough for you? These are not cases which I saw on television or read about in the newspaper - in fact, Chinese media rarely carries such stories - but acquaintances of mine.

Is there sexism in Europe? Yes. Do you meet large numbers of people in all walks of life with the kinds of stories that I listed above? Absolutely not.

Whilst we're at it, did I or Chinabounder say anything about western expats treating Chinese women all that better? The old men with young Chinese girlfriends are merely taking advantage of a phenomenon which is quite prevalent in Chinese culture: marriages of convenience between 20-something-year-old women and old men with money. The university English teachers who use their classes as pick-up bars are simply taking advantage of the common phenomenon of relationships between (usually married) university lecturers and students, usually involving favours going in both directions.

Thanks for the comment Chinabounder, and although I cannot agree with all of your ethics, I do admire your writing simply because it is so bluntly honest. The truth hurts, but only the most resolute and intrepid of men have the ability of being able to accept it.

foap, you listing several of your personal experiences still doesn't prove jack. I can also name off a huge list of White American friends of mine who cheat on their wives, on their girlfiends, White men I know who are sadistic, women who sell their bodies in America for grades or money or a marriage, it still doesn't prove your main thesis that these examples somehow serves to explain White worship and the easy time unattractive White expats have romatically in various countries in Asia. I have yet to hear you even so much as acknowledge or admit that self hate, White worship, and inferiority complex is a huge part of explaining this phenomenon (without having to deny sexism exists in China as it does around the entire world).

As for Chinabounder's blog, here is a comparable of how sad/pathetic his supremecist White Knight thinking pervades his writing. If the following news story appeared in China about a Chinese man, he would write a lengthy post that generalized and racialized all Chinese men and culture, and somehow tied this into why it's so easy for him to get tail to further fuel his ego using messed up reasoning:

[The truth hurts, but only the most resolute and intrepid of men have the ability of being able to accept it. ]

Velouria you have no clue how spot on you are, especially in describing certain arrogant, supremecist, closet racist White expats living in various nations in Asia. For some, it hurts their ego too much to realize they are essentially social predators, leveraging their White skin, on brainwashed individuals. The truth isn't as ego-boosting as the false reasons they come up with.

Errm, I don't live in Asia. I don't know what 'social predator' actually means. I don't know any Americans who have the kind of experiences I've described above no I know anybody really who has had those kind of experiences in the UK. I don't really know what you mean by 'white knight' complex - isn't it Chinese women who are supposed to have this? I don't think that Chinabounder actually thinks of himself in an incredibly positive light, though I'm sure he gets along quite nicely. I don't think his 'main thesis' in this post was about Chinese men at all - it was about expat women. I did acknowledge that Chinese have an inferiority complex, I said "Are Chinese people self-hating? Perhaps, but they hide it behind staunch nationalism and xenophobia.", so maybe you should read before posting, it's not like it's that hard. I am not a racist, closet or otherwise. In fact your statements lead me to suspect that although you are an 'American', you perhaps don't see eye-to-eye with your fellow countrymen. The Chinese government does not 'brainwash' its citizens to believe that they are inferior to foreigners, in fact it is quite the reverse.

You say that you know many examples of similar behavior in the US: I doubt it. I am of course perfectly willing to read anything you write on the subject though, but I doubt you have anything to match what happened to Professor Jin Ming. Jin Ming, was a reasonably well-known translator in the field of African poetry at a university in Nanjing. As I mentioned above, he was fucking our secretary, a married woman and mother some twenty years his junior. She had a husband and a child and was not willing to be his mistress, but he threatened her with being fired, so she put up with it. Eventually she tried to quit, he grabbed a knife and stabbed her in the back as she was running away, only very nearly missing her heart. Thinking that she was dead he threw himself from a window and killed himself. His wife and daughter were, as I said, on the same campus and were called to the scene. A large crowd gathered, some people laughed and joked, although this is common in crowds everywhere. I worked in the same office and spoke with each of them everyday. Of course we all knew what had happened because we had seen the body and the ambulance arrive for the secretary, but the newspapers reported on the next day (the 23rd of December 2004) only that he had died, without giving any of the facts. This story is only shocking in China because of the attempted murder/suicide, none of the other elements are that surprising to anyone who is familiar with Chinese society. So please, enlighten me with your stories of American inequity.

[but I doubt you have anything to match what happened to Professor Jin Ming. Jin Ming, was a reasonably well-known translator in the field of African poetry at a university in Nanjing.]

Your long ass story doesn't prove anything that can be generalized to Chinese culture or men, no matter how detailed you write it. I love how you generalize an entire nation, full of over a billion people, on a handful of personal experiences, and then say you aren't a bigot or a racist. You ARE an arrogant racist supremecist, you are just in denial about it.

@'American' - To be honest I can see no way in which you would ever allow your mind to be changed on this issue, so I have a solution for you. Go to China and study in a university there alongside Chinese, find the guy who's always first to defend the communist party against criticism and first to blame things on the west. Marry him and have children by him, then watch as you sit at home at night waiting for him to come back from late night 'meetings'. This is about the only way that you're going to see the truth in what 95% of expats (both men and women) in China believe: that women in China do not occupy the exalted position that you describe and that many Chinese marriages are marriages of convenience.

This is not me 'generalising' from one, a dozen, or even a hundred cases. This is me describing the things which effect pretty much everybody I know in China, as well as the friends of everybody I know, as well as there friends, and complete strangers who I came across, and pretty much every instance of accurate reportage, and the content of the majority of blogs on the subject (including Chinadirt).

Chinabounder, it really doesn't matter if you are rich/white/asian/chinese/english or whatever. Sooner or later you are going to realize this.

What matters is how you carry yourself and how you project confidence. What matters even more is how much assets you have and how rich you are. You have to eventually learn to skip all of these analytical things that the poor man do coz he has spare time and just plain realize girls are attracted to confidence, assertive, and rich men. Confident assertive rich men don't have time like you to write these stuff. They are busy getting laid by hot chick, of all different kind of races.

It doesn't matter what race they are or you are. I'm an American chinese under 30 years of age and lived in both the US and asia (japan, china, singapore, hk). Chicks are all the same way. I've dated blondes, brunettes, chinese, japanese, europeans, etc etc. They are the same. What matters is how you project yourself over them and if you win that they will want to be with u have sex with u and hope to marry you and have ur babies etc.

foarp, I never denied there are aspects of Chinese society that may be sexist, just as there are MANY aspects of American, British, Western, Middle Eastern, Black, etc society that are oppressive to women all over the world. But you keep repeating this as the root cause for why it's so easy for unattractive White men to get laid in China, when it's not the main reason at all. If this were the true reason, why aren't Middle Eastern women (victims of some of the most oppressive chauvinism, rules, sexism, and archane cultures) flocking to non-Middle-Eastern men as soon as they can all over the world, in high enough numbers that are noticeable to others, especially in Europe where many currently reside? Your excuse isn't the real reason.

Fact is, Asian cultures are confucian in valuing social hierarchy and status, and due to Western media brainwashing as well as the West's advantage in wealth and military power right now, many Asians have an inferiority complex, self hate, and White Worship. It's just not as ego-boosting for you to accept the truth, it destroys your White Knight mentality and your superiority complex attitude towards Asian culture, men, and women. Instead of being a liberator (which fuels your ego the most to believe), you are actually a social predator leveraging his White skin, while being a closet bigot who makes all kinds of crazy generalizations about Chinese culture/people based on superficial observations.

If you are able to get past your own self deception (which I doubt, based on how often you keep repeating and insisting your view), you will see this inferiority complex and White worship is the real reason, not to mention the fact that there are certain Asian people out there who will say and do anything in order to fuel the ego of their 'White trophy' (only a trophy in their own minds, oftentimes we all know it's a fat, bald, old, wimpy, or homely-looking White man).

Signed,American (a different person from the one who posted above this current comment)

You see, the problem with your argument is this - 'western media'. You may not have noticed this, but Chinese people do not live in America, Europe or Australia - they live in China, the media they are brainwashed by is 'eastern media', which is quite different.

You are generalising straight from your experience in America to the outer world, this is quite a mistake.

I do not have a 'white knight complex', I do not believe myself to be a 'liberator', I do not 'leverage my white skin' to get girls, I do not even live in China now. I am not a 'closet bigot', nor is it 'crazy' to generalise from the experiences of pretty much every Chinese person I know.

I recognise that Chinese people suffer from a basic sense of inferiority. It is only possible to understand the continual appeals to '5,000 years of history' and other flights of myth-building fancy in the context of an inferiority complex.

Your point on middle eastern women is somewhat strange, they do not marry outside of their ethnic group mainly for religious and cultural reasons. Many of their marriages are arranged by their parents - they are given no choice in the matter. In what way is this connected to what you are talking about?

I have not actually made the argument that the poor treatment that Chinese women receive from their menfolk is the main reason why it's so easy for white men to get laid in Asia. In fact, it was you who made that point, asserting it as the attitude you felt prevalent throughout this blog. My point was that this mistreatment exists, something that you have disputed so far without offering any arguments, or doing anything except accusing me of being a racist.

[You may not have noticed this, but Chinese people do not live in America, Europe or Australia - they live in China, the media they are brainwashed by is 'eastern media', which is quite different.]

In case YOU haven't noticed, in almost every Asian country, the movie theaters are dominated by Hollywood films that glorify White men, fetishize Asian women with White men, while demeaning and stereotyping Asian men. Additionally, Western literature is full of this White Knight crap that infects the minds of minority youth all over the world. If you have lived in Asia as you claimed, you know how much Asian people value not just social status and prestige, but also brands, and who can argue that global mass media constantly 'brands' White people as the best? Do you think it's just a coincidence that eye-enlarging surgery (to look more Caucasian) is the #1 surgery among Asian women in Asia?

[I have not actually made the argument that the poor treatment that Chinese women receive from their menfolk is the main reason why it's so easy for white men to get laid in Asia.]

While Chinabounder explicitly says this in his posts, you imply this several times in your commentss above. Why else do you bring up your sexism story, other than to come up with some ego-boosting reason to explain why dorky White rejects in their home countries are successful in Asia? Also, read my first post about sexism, I said China does have aspects of sexism, just as there are several areas that are sexist and chauvinist and oppressive to women in American, British, White, Christian, Jewish, Middle Eastern, Latin, Black cultures, etc. Yet even in the most oppressive countries for women, you don't see this White worship as prevalent as in Asian countries, and as I explained above, it is confucian values that manifest as self hate, inferiority complex, and White worship due to centuries of Western conquest.

[My point was simply that this mistreatment exists]

This is BS and you know it. There is sexism all over the world, yet for any 3rd party readers observing it is clear you are trying to use this as the root cause for why dorky White guys get laid so often in Asia, when it is not the real reason. I admitted several posts above that there are aspects of China that can be improved, yet you keep harping on this point as if it explains the main question of this thread, which is why do social reject White men have such an easier time in Asia than they do in their home countries, or anywhere else in the world for that matter?

I'm in Canada and Chinabounder is full of crap, I think if anything, Asia is female dominated. If you guys think women in Asia are sexually restricted, then blame the women for imposing those rules.

Look at the recent Edison Chen sex photo scandal. He had consensual sex with a half-dozen Asian female stars, many of whom are hypocrites with their cute/innocent, virgin images, when in actuality they are not. The fact that Edison keeps getting lombasted by Asian media, and that the female stars are humiliated, is majority from ASIAN WOMEN.

Chinabounder: if you're going to blame sexual rigidity/confinement in Asia, blame the women with their crazy views of wanting all their stars to be so cutesy and innocent. Did you know that in Asia in college there, it's all-male or all-female dorms, and there is curfew? These are rigid rules from the women, not the men.

@'Canadian' - There are rigid rules which apply to women and not to men, get it straight.

@'American' - Argue from what has actually been written, not merely from some feeling you have from skimming through my comments. Yes, my point is that many Chinese women find their relationships oppresive. Yes, my point is that many seek people from other cultures just because they feel freer in those relationships. I do not argue that western men are supermen.

As I'm sure you are aware, only a maximum of twenty films are okayed per year for release in China, and none that 'demean' or 'denigrate' Chinese culture are allowed. Remember that this has been stretched to include an advert in which an NBA player managed to dribble a ball past a cartoon dragon - so we are talking about a pretty broad definition of the word 'denigrate' here. Remeber also that as recently as the mid seventies you could be arrested for saying something as simple as saying that the US Navy has the largest warships in the world.

China also has a very active cinema of its own, which gives a relentlessly positive view of Chinese culture. State media is given to heaping praise on the great genius of the Chinese people, everything which is evil in Chinese society has been blamed at least once on foreign influence. The words most often used to describe foreigners is 'arrogant', and 'imperialistic'.

So please, write about the Chinese experience, not the Chinese-American experience.

I enjoyed most of your “sexy” little stories even as a Chinese woman, not only because you have proved that all my theory about foreign guys or “Euro-trash” or whatever you wanna call the guys like you; but I have also never felt so right about things I have done in the past few years when I was in China.

Just like you, having a thing for Chinese women or Asian chicks in general, I have a thing for western guys, maybe we have different reasons: you like to have sex them while I like to fuck them in a mental way. I have been dating western guys since I was 14, as soon as they fall in love or wanna try some “actions”, I have to leave them by cheating on them with their best friends, or someone they are close to, the only true relationships I had were all with local Chinese boys. You know why?

It is because I just wanna practice my English and prove my point is true that all the western guys who came to China to LIVE (and some travellers as well), are all losers in their own country, probably cannot even afford a fucking dinner, I mean they are worthless in their own country, some even get money from the government to come to Asian countries, so pathetic…they are not there (China) for the culture or whatever, but for cheap living, cheap sex, run away from their pathetic meaningless life and make them feel like they actually “worth” something.

And there is another shocking truth: most western guys cannot really satisfy me in my standard…some times they tried so hard to please me, but I just cannot get there, so I have to fake it occasionally in order to NOT hurt their fragile little feelings. And for the record, with nearly the same amount of Chinese guys, I can always make my business to come.

But it doesn’t mean that I do not like your stories or western guys in general. When I come to Europe to study for almost 4 years, I found out that most local western guys who STAY in their own country and make good livings are more like “normal” creatures who understand and respect others for their differences.

I think the reason that guys like you exploring their sexuality “orientally” and never wanna f*ck a western girl anymore is because the things you can and the things you can’t. They are not as “easy” as some certain confused Asian women. They don’t give a shit about you ‘cuz you are a loser in their eyes, in their country-where there are many many HOT choices around them, and they don’t fall for your dirty little tricks easily ‘cuz they speak your language perfectly and understand it totally.

I don’t understand how dating or screwing a not even well educated Chinese prostitute (sorry for that, but most of the women you mentioned in your stories fit this profile in most Chinese people’s eyes, you cannot see because you are not Chinese, and you can never be one) and making western girls or Chinese guys sounds bad, can make you look better.

Anyway, god made the body and it is your choice to have the kind of “joys” you want, and there are always two (or more) people doing the “f*cking” there…so, enjoying your ride, and don’t forget to use a condom.

I want to make sure everyone realizes what a tool, hypocrite, and self-deceptive liar foarp is.

First he says: [I have not actually made the argument that the poor treatment that Chinese women receive from their menfolk is the main reason why it's so easy for white men to get laid in Asia.]

Then he says: [Yes, my point is that many Chinese women find their relationships oppresive. Yes, my point is that many seek people from other cultures just because they feel freer in those relationships.]

Since he has problems being consistent, I'll repeat what I wrote to him above, since he clearly ignored it the first time. It's like he's not listening while he's contradicting himself.-------

I never denied there are aspects of Chinese society that may be sexist, just as there are MANY aspects of American, British, Western, Middle Eastern, Black, etc society that are oppressive to women all over the world. But you keep repeating this as the root cause for why it's so easy for unattractive White men to get laid in China, when it's not the main reason at all. If this were the true reason, why aren't Middle Eastern women (victims of some of the most oppressive chauvinism, rules, sexism, and archane cultures) flocking to non-Middle-Eastern men as soon as they can all over the world, in high enough numbers that are noticeable to others, especially in Europe where many currently reside (to be 'freer')? Your excuse isn't the real reason.

Fact is, Asian cultures are confucian in valuing social hierarchy and status, and due to Western media brainwashing as well as the West's advantage in wealth and military power right now, many Asians have an inferiority complex, self hate, and White Worship. It's just not as ego-boosting for you to accept the truth, it destroys your White Knight mentality and your superiority complex attitude towards Asian culture, men, and women. Instead of being a liberator (which fuels your ego the most to believe), you are actually a social predator leveraging his White skin, while being a closet bigot who makes all kinds of crazy generalizations about Chinese culture/people based on superficial observations.

If you are able to get past your own self deception (which I doubt, based on how often you keep repeating and insisting your view), you will see this inferiority complex and White worship is the real reason, not to mention the fact that there are certain Asian people out there who will say and do anything in order to fuel the ego of their 'White trophy' (only a trophy in their own minds, oftentimes we all know it's a fat, bald, old, wimpy, or homely-looking White man).

'American' - So instead of actually accepting an argument based on facts which disproved elements of your own argument (i.e., that China does not actually allow that many Hollywood movies to be screened) you just went back to banging the same lame precepts. Have you ever even been to China? I get the impression that your main problem is with how the American-Chinese population is treated by the majority of the American population rather than any specific white expat/local Chinese dynamic.

I am partly agreed some of the comment you talk about China and chinese girls. Yes, china as a country has a lot of problems, but so does every countries in the world. I lived in UK for 5 years and I saw serious problems in UK, such as single mum, higher and higher tax, families live on government support, teenage crime... In another side , it is still a wonderful country with good manners, much better law and social system... China is the same with both sides. It is irresponsible to insult China in such way and in public.

I have to say that the girls you are getting are all similar type. Unfortunately, there are lots of them in China now. China is experiencing the sex revolution as happened 50 years ago in UK and some people are lost. They don't what they want, what is the meaning of life and what to do in their life. But your judgment of the chinese girl as a whole is really unfair.

I have friends from different western countries and I can understand your opinion. But your point of view is very extreme and also enlarge some problems. A lot of things you see is from one or two types of people you are socializing with and this doesn't represent all. Also please pay attention to how you say it, because I think a lot of things you say can be classed as racism.

Your type of expats are only part of the population in China. There are nice foreign teachers and foreign people work in Shanghai. I work with them and lots of them are my friends male and female. I saw a lot of cross culture relationships and most of them are based on love and responsibility. I personally think you are ruining the reputation of all foreigners and all cross culture relationship in china.

I wish you can write your blog in another way with a bit respect to yourself and to other people. I don't know what background you from in your country. I personally believe you are from a not very educated family which is lack of love and respect to other people and your opinion of other people are effected by your background.

I hope you can get on with your life, get a career and be real happy in China.

foarp, you sound like one of those arrogant Whites who claim to be an expert of Chinese and Asian people and culture, because he lived in China for 2 weeks or read a book, or had a personal story to share.

You're not too far off from closet racist Whites who also hate Jews and Blacks and other groups, based on wide sweeping generalizations or stereotypes, confirmed in your own mind through a few encounters.

additionally foarp, I've already shown to others what a self-deceitful hypocrite you are based on how you contradict yourself in the posts, depending on the argument, there is no point debating with someone who will lie or shift positions. in terms of your anal fixation on the movie point, there's no point talking about it, while China does screen (just like the UK and US do) the fact is many Hollywood movies are still shown, even if only half are Hollywood movies it still influences many youth towards White worship and inferiority complex.

Hey, Pig, U fucked many Chinese girls and u are proud of it. I'm not angry at the process of ur fucking Chinese girls who might be as dirt as u. But I'm not happy at ur attitude of this and ur efforts of using dirty words on my country. You will pay for it. You - Have - My - Word - On - It. Enjoy ur shit. Pig.

....please get off your duff and entertain those of us in the know with some more nicely-crafted stories in the grand tradition of Rabelais and Henry Miller. Classic stuff... and far too long between postings.

The westerners get to exploit for lots of casual sex and the Chinese girls get to exploit for sex, new experiences and money.

Two girls told me why they picked western guys over chinese guys. One emphasized hygiene. Local guys have a hard time grasping hygiene and it is evident on the subway. I couldn't imagine what is like for a girl to mess around with a guy who never really scrubbed his package.

The second said that typically alot of Chinese boys are good boyfriends but bad husbands, ie, they are good to a girl until they get her locked down in marriage and knocked up. Then they hit the KTVs. Of course, that isn't the case anymore as plenty of Chinese moms want to "learn english" and take classes taught by foreign men.

I'm a bounderfan because he simply puts into words what happens (not always, but very often) in shanghai and is a good reference for us all. Put your views in a different perspective about his blogs and you may just experience a paradigm shift.

Anyways, I'd just like to personally thank chinabounder for his blunt and honest information that has answered indirectly a number of questions which couldn't have been answered due to widespread hypocrisy.

Errrm . . . . Firstly, they have stated that the whole thing was created by a team of authors. But asides from that, listen, it's not hard for a foreign guy to get with local women in China. Believe me, I even know of a (exceeding mean spirited and unpleasant) guy who had cerebral palsy and could barely walk who managed to get married in China with a girl of not unpresentable looks. I also know of foreign men in their sixties and seventies who have gotten married to women in their thirties - and without (if you can believe it) money changing hands!

These women were mainly that kind who were so desperate to leave what they see as the dire and confined straits of their lives in China that they would grab hold of any foreign man however nasty and old so that they could marry them, obtain foreign citizenship, and leave China.

Believe me, if Chinabounder still has his foreign passport and even a weak pulse, he can get laid in China without having to pay for it.

foarper is absolutly right. I am not Chiense or Western but have been living in China for more than seven years. And from my experience I know what foarper says is right. Even very old ugly looking white men can get laid in Shanghai with young Chinese women. And I don't think money is involved in this matter. Perhaps Chinese women find it’s erotic to sleep with a white man. When I walk the streets of shanghai I see a lot of stylish young Chinese boys. I do have many Chinese friends as I studied together with them in a leading Chinese university. And I have asked myself the question why these young stylish boys are having trouble to keep one girlfriend when even a old fat white English teacher has young attractive women lined up at his door. Chinabounder is only one of these men and I don't think driving him out of china will change this.

"And I have asked myself the question why these young stylish boys are having trouble to keep one girlfriend . . . ."

Because in the eyes of the average Chinese girl these guys are ordinary run-of-the-mill 小伙子, just like the white guys you talk about would be back in their own countries. There is always a percentage of people (say 10-20%) who are attracted to something totally different to what they have previously known - who seek 'the other'. Add to this the section of the Chinese population who are desperate to escape what they feel to be the suffocating strait-jacket of their lives in China by going to another country. Then there are pure gold diggers like Wendi Ding Murdoch.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but women (of just about every culture) flaunt their men just as much as men flaunt women. Sometimes it's hard to tell who the arm candy is, the gal hanging off of his arm, or the man lassoed by her. It's really just a matter of what gender is looking at it.

Women perfected the fine art of jealousy and envy.

The peahen (female pecock) is just as proud of her smooth ivory feathers. (in this case, Mr. Tall Dark and Handsome)

The solution seems simple. Just as you have "seen the light" and realized that asian women are what tickel your fancy, women should see that there are asian men to be snatched up as well, right?

Just tell me this, although men seem to go crazy for the slim, slender, compact figure of Asian women, what female do you know that prefers a slender, docile man?

You have found a balance to your masculinity in one country, but I think women will have to look to a whole different continent to have their ideals met.

A land of perfect women has been found: good for you.

Female explorers still search for the land of strong, emotional secure, "masculine" (men that have not been scared by the western feminist movement; two words, Shell. Shocked. )

Disclaimer: I have no problem with not being satisfied with the "local fare" I'm just questioning the solution you pose for women.

For the ones who said they agreed with this lunatic Chinabouder, please take note of the fact that this is someone who in the pretext of enlightening the world is championing ideas to destroy the great China.

And remember, while you're at it making TX for the great state of Texas, don't forget to do an "I" (with your middle fingers) for Ireland, to signify how the Brits have fucked up every country they've infested during the height of the worldwide English epidemic, as these recurring though less severe episodes such as this Chinabounder lunatic is still reminding the world of even now.

How much of your woeful perception, or more precisely misperception, of the Chiense society, arrived from the few out of context words of a few lightheaded girls whom you've mistreated, is a result of your parents seeing and your hearing American GI's taking English girls from you left and right?

And how much of your skewed view of the world, is merely a psychological projection of your fear of the Blacks taking white girls from you with their much bigger dicks?

And how much of your desperation to make a few cheap bucks off the misery of these women, is the result of your incapability and deep insecurity of being unable to make an honest living?

And how much of the typical British hypocrisy has influenced you into on the one hand grossly mistreated people and on the other hand has to try to hard to blame their mistreatment from you on themselves?

The British race are the most genocidal scum on earth. Just look at how the Native Americans have been wiped out within 200 years after these blood sucking Brits started stealing land in North America.

Haha the freaking Brits just can't get over the fact that China has taken Hong Kong back and there's not one fucking thing they can do about it.

Really underhanded the way they tried to squeeze out some political leverage by acting like a bunch of barbarians during Olympics torch relay. Really sleazy the way this couple of Chinabounder clowns try to whore themselves for a few peso.

Only fitting that these two whores have moved to the prostitution capital of Asia isn't it? The real capital of prostitution is London though. Go the fuck back.

You rightly point out the problems white expat ladies have, and give them a solution.

You also rightly and fairly point out what white expat guys in asia are like.

I'd like to note an observation I've made about Western ladies in China. They aren't a homogenous group.

China is a little different to other 3rd World Asian countries though. There are many Western females who go to China to learn Chinese, and to actively learn about China. Many of these girls are under 25 and, to be honest, quite attractive. They have no problem getting guys, be they white guys (though rarely the older balding/fat/bigotted type), or asian guys from their language course, or even cool guys from China.

Then there are the over 30 female expats. Career wise quite competent, but not so good in looks. These are the ones with problems, and you rightly point out they will have to change their attitudes. In fact, it's not much different from their situation back in their home country really.

I like your shit CB, both the political and sexual posts are sweet. I got the mad yellow fever too. How many years are (were?) you in Shanghai? Just out of curiosity, what was your final count?But I gotta say I disagree on your views of western women, fuck me they're not that bad! Did you have some bad experiences back home? Sure my neck is sore from the plethora of cute chinese girls, but there are also plenty of cute foreigners. And I like em skinny, or with a but of chub, It's all good!I haven't been here long, but while I'm in Shanghai (2+ years), I won't discriminate! Share the love!

I can love both fair and brown;Her whom abundance melts, and her whom want betrays;Her who loves loneness best, and her who masks and plays;Her whom the country form'd, and whom the town;Her who believes, and her who tries;Her who still weeps with spongy eyes,And her who is dry cork, and never cries.I can love her, and her, and you, and you;I can love any, so she be not true.