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bk1 wrote:Top firms in a given market. Generally means they pay market or close to it (e.g. I would consider a firm that pays $145k in Chicago to still be biglaw).

Here's something interesting. Broad & Cassel Orlando and GrayRobinson Orlando are NLJ250, yes, but neither is actually the most preftigiouf firm in Orlando (or get the best work). Lowndes is, and they are NOT NLJ250.

bk1 wrote:Well not any, I think it gets grey at a certain point. Though I probably err towards saying that even smaller markets would still count that other people might say are too small (e.g. Portland/Sacramento/etc).

Since Portland has 13 firms reporting starting salaries in the six figures, I would say that's pretty fair.

Any 10+ shop that provides market pay or close to market pay. Obviously there are better and worse jobs inside biglaw. The point is that you are making the $ and busting your ass- I advocate a pretty low bar for a "biglaw" definition.

Making 160k at a V25 in NYC is substantially similar to making 115k at Snell and Wilmer Phoenix, except 115k in Phoenix has significantly higher purchasing power than 160k in NYC. The hours are long, the work is hard, the pay is pretty good. I'd call both biglaw, but obviously you can prestigewhore inside it.

Glock wrote:Any 10+ shop that provides market pay or close to market pay. Obviously there are better and worse jobs inside biglaw. The point is that you are making the $ and busting your ass- I advocate a pretty low bar for a "biglaw" definition.

Making 160k at a V25 in NYC is substantially similar to making 115k at Snell and Wilmer Phoenix, except 115k in Phoenix has significantly higher purchasing power than 160k in NYC. The hours are long, the work is hard, the pay is pretty good. I'd call both biglaw, but obviously you can prestigewhore inside it.

Haha so to be biglaw, the work must be hard and the hours must be long?

Glock wrote:Any 10+ shop that provides market pay or close to market pay. Obviously there are better and worse jobs inside biglaw. The point is that you are making the $ and busting your ass- I advocate a pretty low bar for a "biglaw" definition.

Making 160k at a V25 in NYC is substantially similar to making 115k at Snell and Wilmer Phoenix, except 115k in Phoenix has significantly higher purchasing power than 160k in NYC. The hours are long, the work is hard, the pay is pretty good. I'd call both biglaw, but obviously you can prestigewhore inside it.

Haha so to be biglaw, the work must be hard and the hours must be long?

bk1 wrote:Top firms in a given market. Generally means they pay market or close to it (e.g. I would consider a firm that pays $145k in Chicago to still be biglaw).

Here's something interesting. Broad & Cassel Orlando and GrayRobinson Orlando are NLJ250, yes, but neither is actually the most preftigiouf firm in Orlando (or get the best work). Lowndes is, and they are NOT NLJ250.

Clarification: Lowndes may be the most prestigious firm BASED in Orlando, but not the most prestigious firm with an office in Orlando.

Usually its just a phrase 0-3Ls use to brag about how many and what kind of offers they got - its never, I got a job! Its always, I got a big firm job! (z'omg, big lawl wants me!! ::tear::). Its also apparently the solution to 99% of the people's problems on this board as well as their life-long aspirations (as evidenced by tons of people choosing a firm far from where they want to live due to percieved preftige or magical exit options).

bk1 wrote:Top firms in a given market. Generally means they pay market or close to it (e.g. I would consider a firm that pays $145k in Chicago to still be biglaw).

Here's something interesting. Broad & Cassel Orlando and GrayRobinson Orlando are NLJ250, yes, but neither is actually the most preftigiouf firm in Orlando (or get the best work). Lowndes is, and they are NOT NLJ250.

Clarification: Lowndes may be the most prestigious firm BASED in Orlando, but not the most prestigious firm with an office in Orlando.

I kind of think of BigLaw as two different categories: National BigLaw and Regional BigLaw. National BigLaw is the V100 and the firms are primarily based on large cities (NYC/DC/Chicago/Boston/LA/SF/Atlanta/Dallas/Houston/Miami). Regional BigLaw are the top firms in more tertiary market that have summer programs and pay around "market" for the area. The lines between Regional BigLaw and MidLaw tend to be pretty blurry and I think these firms try to posture themselves as MidLaw to make them seem more "humane" and distinguish them from some of the negative qualities associated with National BigLaw. But RegionalBigLaw is still technically BigLaw since they have SA programs, hire out of OCI and pay more than 6 figures starting.

Boutiques are totally different since they're so specialized (Plaintiffs firms tend to fall into this category). And while they aren't technically BigLaw, a lot of them are more preftigious than BigLaw.

Helmholtz wrote:NLJ250, and even then toward the bottom of the list I'm iffy (160-to-200-lawyer firms that start out associates under six figures and are located in markets like Charleston and Syracuse really start to feel more midlawish to me).

Are there NLJ250 firms that really pay 5 figures?

Jackson Kelly, an NLJ250 in Charleston, starts out associates at $73k; Steptoe PLLC starts associates at $72k (and summer associates only make $1k/wk); and Frost Brown Todd in Cincinnati starts you off at $80k.

keg411 wrote:I kind of think of BigLaw as two different categories: National BigLaw and Regional BigLaw. National BigLaw is the V100 and the firms are primarily based on large cities (NYC/DC/Chicago/Boston/LA/SF/Atlanta/Dallas/Houston/Miami). Regional BigLaw are the top firms in more tertiary market that have summer programs and pay around "market" for the area. The lines between Regional BigLaw and MidLaw tend to be pretty blurry and I think these firms try to posture themselves as MidLaw to make them seem more "humane" and distinguish them from some of the negative qualities associated with National BigLaw. But RegionalBigLaw is still technically BigLaw since they have SA programs, hire out of OCI and pay more than 6 figures starting.

Boutiques are totally different since they're so specialized (Plaintiffs firms tend to fall into this category). And while they aren't technically BigLaw, a lot of them are more preftigious than BigLaw.

Egregious Miami trolling. Seattle and Silicon Valley should be up there before Miami.

keg411 wrote:I kind of think of BigLaw as two different categories: National BigLaw and Regional BigLaw. National BigLaw is the V100 and the firms are primarily based on large cities (NYC/DC/Chicago/Boston/LA/SF/Atlanta/Dallas/Houston/Miami). Regional BigLaw are the top firms in more tertiary market that have summer programs and pay around "market" for the area. The lines between Regional BigLaw and MidLaw tend to be pretty blurry and I think these firms try to posture themselves as MidLaw to make them seem more "humane" and distinguish them from some of the negative qualities associated with National BigLaw. But RegionalBigLaw is still technically BigLaw since they have SA programs, hire out of OCI and pay more than 6 figures starting.

Boutiques are totally different since they're so specialized (Plaintiffs firms tend to fall into this category). And while they aren't technically BigLaw, a lot of them are more preftigious than BigLaw.

Egregious Miami trolling. Seattle and Silicon Valley should be up there before Miami.

I consider SV/SF as basically the same market (same goes for LA/OC). I'm sure employers probably make distinctions, but I didn't interview in either of those places, so I didn't worry about that.

I don't know enough about how big the Seattle legal market is, but you can include it; the list isn't exhaustive, it's just what I thought were the largest legal markets.

keg411 wrote:I kind of think of BigLaw as two different categories: National BigLaw and Regional BigLaw. National BigLaw is the V100 and the firms are primarily based on large cities (NYC/DC/Chicago/Boston/LA/SF/Atlanta/Dallas/Houston/Miami). Regional BigLaw are the top firms in more tertiary market that have summer programs and pay around "market" for the area. The lines between Regional BigLaw and MidLaw tend to be pretty blurry and I think these firms try to posture themselves as MidLaw to make them seem more "humane" and distinguish them from some of the negative qualities associated with National BigLaw. But RegionalBigLaw is still technically BigLaw since they have SA programs, hire out of OCI and pay more than 6 figures starting.

Boutiques are totally different since they're so specialized (Plaintiffs firms tend to fall into this category). And while they aren't technically BigLaw, a lot of them are more preftigious than BigLaw.

This is probably a sensible distinction. It's also a good warning about smaller big law trying to pass themselves off as mid law.

keg411 wrote:I kind of think of BigLaw as two different categories: National BigLaw and Regional BigLaw. National BigLaw is the V100 and the firms are primarily based on large cities (NYC/DC/Chicago/Boston/LA/SF/Atlanta/Dallas/Houston/Miami). Regional BigLaw are the top firms in more tertiary market that have summer programs and pay around "market" for the area. The lines between Regional BigLaw and MidLaw tend to be pretty blurry and I think these firms try to posture themselves as MidLaw to make them seem more "humane" and distinguish them from some of the negative qualities associated with National BigLaw. But RegionalBigLaw is still technically BigLaw since they have SA programs, hire out of OCI and pay more than 6 figures starting.

Boutiques are totally different since they're so specialized (Plaintiffs firms tend to fall into this category). And while they aren't technically BigLaw, a lot of them are more preftigious than BigLaw.

Egregious Miami trolling. Seattle and Silicon Valley should be up there before Miami.

I consider SV/SF as basically the same market (same goes for LA/OC). I'm sure employers probably make distinctions, but I didn't interview in either of those places, so I didn't worry about that.

I don't know enough about how big the Seattle legal market is, but you can include it; the list isn't exhaustive, it's just what I thought were the largest legal markets.

SV / SF is as distinct as Houston / Dallas. Your list just doesn't make sense. Miami has Greenberg Traurig and a few satellites. So does Phoenix.

c3pO4 wrote:SV / SF is as distinct as Houston / Dallas. Your list just doesn't make sense. Miami has Greenberg Traurig and a few satellites. So does Phoenix.

Hey, this is my thread and I say this meaningless line-drawing is too pointless to be allowed (whereas the meaningless line-drawing the thread is designed to make is just barely over the threshold of what's okay).