So, you don't accept that God is imaginary? Or that all gods are imaginary, as the best possible explanation for all of the non-sense related to explanation of religions and their gods?

My wit said to me that all this GOD thing is s**t. I never believed or expected myself to believe before...

But the issue is that now i am confronted with a possibility that it might not be imaginary. If you are thinking that this might eb the ramblings of an old man about to die, then I am 22 yrs old only.

And I am confronting you with the OBVIOUS reality that there is no god, there never has been a god, there never will be a god, and that the entire god concept is a man-made mess. How can you refute my point? Do it. Please share anything that would contradict my position. It matters not how old you are.

Humans invented gods to explain the unknown, to comfort the grieving, and to enslave the masses with a higher authority. Do you have something in your knowledge that refutes this clearly?

...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life.

Why hold someone responsible for actions that they have no control over nor even the ability change those conditions?

Quote

It could be that.

It cannot if you're god belief is defined as 'good' in an absolute manner. The problem of evil would still be readily apparent, with just a different narcissistic psychotic super being at the controls. Punishment for past lives would entail afflicting innocents for what they themselves have no control over or even responsibility to address, since in every conceivable way it is totally disconnected from them as a person. Why have past lives and be responsible for them, if you have no memory, choice, or say in how that life is lived.

You might as well punish a child for the sin of the father. ( just like punishing all of humanity for the sins of adam and eve ).

Quote

Oh before going ahead, I am a Hindu-Agnostic-Theist and have been an atheist till recently until I felt HE must exist because of some things which i came across... So, now you know what sort of a guy I am religiously speaking, from that...

Not really.

I know that you make up bizarre rationale without much consideration, inserting them as if they need to be considered without proper analysis. I also know that you claim to have some context for providing a reason to believe, but you notably avoid telling us what that is.

Quote

So yes, I feel ..

I'm not encouraged to care when you make arbitrary assertions that you admit

Quote

and no i do not want to define life.

You will neither define nor support.

You might as well be listing your belief in the easter bunny, transformers, and the fact that leprechauns make the moon go around the earth.

Why do you think arbitrarily making assertions inseparable from make believe is logical?

« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 09:43:40 AM by Omen »

Logged

"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

I guess this is why India is still majorly underdeveloped: Judging everyone too much. Just because Hinduism happens to be one of, if not, the oldest religion in the world today does not mean it's correct. The gods are no more real than any other god. And not trying to help people in need just because your religion tells you that they reincarnated that way because they did bad things in the past is horrible, unethical, and inhumane; plus, there's no proof or evidence of reincarnation. The world need not be cruel to everyone. It helps to aid others who truly need help more than ever. It makes the world a better place, so that more civilizations can thrive.

Majority of what you said is true, but i have provided my reasonings to these above and wouldn't repeat it as it might be regarded as spamming.

We should always help people in need, no matter what their crimes might have been or have not been. Reincarnated or not, judging people like that is not what i meant from my post above.

I am here to try and question my faith so that i can be sure whether to believe or not to. For me, it would be good to have a fair omnipotent, overseeing everything. And one of my latest fantasies incline me to believe. I want to question that, challenge that, and get some sense into me. That is the reason behind my posts and i appreciate all the above posts...

Alright, thank you for clarifying as to why you are here. Remember though, just in case; if you're going to make extraordinary claims, provide extraordinary evidence. As for "logical" god, a god that does not care doesn't very logical at all. By the way, a bit irrelevant, but let me say it anyway: there is a Hindu god (Shiva, god of destruction, I think) that dances on top of a baby while holding a knife and other items. I never knew what to make of that... Some gods (one a female warrior) are very violent in nature and their stories repulsive. So repulsive that it already would drive me away from Hinduism.

Another thing about Hinduism that bothers me if the way you have to reach moksha, in order to beat the samsaric cycle (the cycle of reincarnation). Starving yourself? Endless meditating? Making your body do things that it normally wouldn't be able to do? The idea of being inhumane to oneself is preposterous.

So it must be logical. Just like wearing a hat makes you a lion tamer. . . .

Reminds me of that story about some guy who said something like, "I'm not prejudiced or anything, I just don't think blacks and whites should be allowed to marry each other." Which in turn reminds me of the old joke usually attributed to Abraham Lincoln, "How many legs does a dog have if you count the tail as a leg?"

Logged

[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life. It could be that.

Let me ask, how does our past lives influenece our current ones if we dont' remember them at all? It seems just more wishful thinking by a theist, that somehow there is some magical "justice" so they can ignore the problems of the world and do whatever they want. I think Omen got it quite well.

Quote

Oh before going ahead, I am a Hindu-Agnostic-Theist and have been an atheist till recently until I felt HE must exist because of some things which i came across... So, now you know what sort of a guy I am religiously speaking, from that...

what are these things? I am afraid taht you will probably respond with the usual parlor tricks and coincidence that all theists do.

Logged

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

You merely needed to ask honestly and cease trying to force your opinions and prejudices upon others.

Quote

Like that.

--J. "My Secrets are Not Sold Cheaply" D.

Agree upon that. I was too wayward of myself. Sorry sir.

@All posters in this thread

Assume a situation here - Person A is an atheist. Okay...? Hardcore atheist. Lover of science. Fan of Stephen Hawking and believes in String theory, even though he has no understanding beyond that of a science student.

If such a Person A happens to know that he had no way of living, none whatsoever. He has some sort of illness which has no known cure, only certain corrections and stoppages. There are some medicines, which will ease the pain, but still is incomprehensibly a cruel pain. Just staying awake is a nightmare. Searing pain all over the body, you cannot ever comprehend unless you have a similar disease....

Such a person, has decided to dispose of everything, and decides to end the pain by killing himself... Okay..?

So, this person is going about ready to meet his end. Decides to spend one last week of fun and happiness before leaving. Enjoys the time. Takes no medicine because he was sure that within a week all his misery will go away. Pain starts throbbing like his earlier years, when he had not taken any medicine, but still, he keeps control and spends time in the places he loves. P.S: He has no friends to meet and talk to because of his particular illness, he has been unable to get out much....

Then walking back home, on the third day, he decides to have a go at a nearby place of God, with an intention of silently cursing that unfair God if he did in deed exist. I was just pissed off my life, so i just went in to curse life and whatever.... The atmosphere was peaceful you know. An elephant inside the courtyard thrashing some palm leaves and chewing it on, so I sat there watching it. The poojari (brahmin priest) came to me and said - I do not see you around here ever...! What happened? I said that i was about to go join a distant university for higher studies and wanted to pray. he said, then lie down on the ground and with cupped hands, pray that everything be alright. I said that i cannot even sit properly in the place i am now because of some pain. He said, yes, i know, your mother told about you and prays for you daily. I said okay....

He said, if i am able to control and bear my pain for the few minutes that i sat there, try to lie on the ground, hands thrust forward and pray for wellness. He was a ranking old timer, might have hit 90+. So i chose not to defy his request, which was most probably the last, so i did what he asked me to. It was a temple of Shiva incarnated as Rajarajeshwara, so this is an act that is supposed to submit to him or something...

I got up, thanked him for the advices, took the prasad (ash made by burning dry cow dung) and rubbed it on my forehead and started walking back home. I noticed after opening the gate to my house that it did not pain me to touch the gate. Otherwise it would have been unbearable. I noted that i did not feel pain for sometime now but cannot remember when exactly it had gone.... I checked again removing my clothes and did not have any rash marks or anything which was usual when i wore clothes for a long time... It is quite funny in a way because i could never remember a day without pain before, and now i cannot remember what that pain was like....

I cannot prove any of this in anyway. in fact, i do not know what my problem was till now... I had serious headaches all my life, which made it worse than ever and in addition to it the full body pains prevented me from being a normal person. I have Keratoconus in addition to all this making me one hell of a fucking irritated maniac. I have not experienced any pain like i had before after that incident now. In fact, i have stopped taking my medications for pain relief (Pelladdone - They say it is derived from morphine).

I still have keratoconus though. So i am not sure if this is a cure or not. When i saw the doctor and told him of this, he says he cannot believe me. He said that it must be some side effects of taking pelladdone which is derived from morphine. He also asked me whether i have addiction to the medicine now, to which i said NO. He said that either i am mentally ill or i am lying. To this i told that i had thought about suicide and he is somewhat confirmed that i have gone nuts completely.

He talked to my parents about all this, and they are now roaming around me every few minutes looking at me. Dad gave me the Bhagavad Gita ro read and i have been doing that for the past few weeks. I tried to learn about what this effking guy called God is all about and i am now confused as ever.

Current situation1. The person is not cured completely if you ask me. he still has Keratoconus.2. No pain whatsoever than the occasional mild outcome of reading for long times together. (common with keratoconus)3. No addiction to fucking morphine or pelladdone or whatever they call it.4. All persons except my girl friend distrusts me and thinks i am nuts... (Why not my GF? Well it doesn't pain me now to touch her.... and she can see that in my eyes...)

Well, what do you expect from a person like this...? What should he do or believe in...? Logic says to him that it might be nothing, but should he be an ungrateful person if it was indeed the doing of some omnipotent...

This will be unbelievably preposterous and i admit that. No proves whatsoever. Is it, and might be a fantasy..?

...This will be unbelievably preposterous and i admit that. No proves whatsoever. Is it, and might be a fantasy..?

That made no sense. What am I reading...? I'm sorry Dr. Viper, but this is a beyond ridiculous tale that hurts to read. There are no if's. There is no room for making up stories, because in the end, no gods are real. Atheists are not, and I repeat, not bitter nor angry at any god. Atheists just simply don't believe in any god. It is not a difficult concept.

That you won't believe in a possible explanation of a supernatural or omnipotent in it...? My logic asks me to think so, but somewhere inside me something is turning that belief.... I am no longer able to confirm my ideology and also cannot disapprove of those facts which i had once inside me confirming to me that God is just imagination. I can no longer bring up those facts to my defense.....

I searched online a lot and that is how i ended up coming to this forum...

That you won't believe in a possible explanation of a supernatural or omnipotent in it...? My logic asks me to think so, but somewhere inside me something is turning that belief.... I am no longer able to confirm my ideology and also cannot disapprove of those facts which i had once inside me confirming to me that God is just imagination. I can no longer bring up those facts to my defense.....

I searched online a lot and that is how i ended up coming to this forum...

You have to understand one simple thing, Dr. Viper. I know what you were trying to do, conjuring up a disaster of a tale and all, but that's just not how things work. You have to think beyond fairy tales. You have to think realistically. You soon find rationale to be your best friend after asking many questions. Making up a tale will never justify a deity. There are no if's when it comes to the concept of deities. I understand if you feel confused... Or shocked, for that matter. I remember having my husband (who goes on here as well) telling me about his lack of faith. I asked more questions, and eventually, I was confused with myself. I guess it was actually the emotional attachment that I lived with and have grown to accept. But hey, feel free to ask all the questions in the world; that's how you break the wall. Sorry if I went too fast on you. I just could not find the rationale in a tale. It felt like my brain fizzled for a little bit... Haha.

I know. That was why i am confused...I had my share of time talking to people why God will not be there and why it is just imagination... Added to my difficulties, people around here consider me as a nut and i have no friends at all. I have been in love with a girl for five years now. respect and admire her the most because she understood my difficulties and still loved me. She believes in God, and i do not contradict her out of respect, but now i cannot contradict anyone... I have lost all my favorite arguments that i use when talking about it to theists...

I am no longer the old me....

That was why i came here and fought with the atheists. I hoped to remember the old arguments i had with me, my old tools. In that attempt i think i enraged some members here. I feel so sorry for my actions towards Doctor X. I am sorry for that..... if Doctor X is reading this post, please accept my apologies dear sir.

Current situation1. The person is not cured completely if you ask me. he still has Keratoconus.2. No pain whatsoever than the occasional mild outcome of reading for long times together. (common with keratoconus)3. No addiction to fucking morphine or pelladdone or whatever they call it.4. All persons except my girl friend distrusts me and thinks i am nuts... (Why not my GF? Well it doesn't pain me now to touch her.... and she can see that in my eyes...)

Well, what do you expect from a person like this...? What should he do or believe in...? Logic says to him that it might be nothing, but should he be an ungrateful person if it was indeed the doing of some omnipotent...

This will be unbelievably preposterous and i admit that. No proves whatsoever. Is it, and might be a fantasy..?

Viper, various illnesses can come and go. It doesn't mean that any thing was supernatural about them at all. Not all people get addicted, so again, there's nothing supernatural about that either. Wanting to say "god" did it is not an answer, it's a lazy excuse. And if a god did heal you, why no indication of which, out of the millions of gods, it is? You could spend your entire life running from church to temple to tree and still not get the "right" one. It becomes a poor man's Pascal's Wager, and at best, indicates your gods are rather inept.

Logged

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

... no i do not want to define life.......The idea of punishment is not clear to me and i cannot define it...

Let me give you some help as a moderator. This is not going to satisfy anyone. If you make claims, you have to understand them and support them. If you make commentary about life, you do not then get to take discussion of what life is off the table. If you make a claim about punishment being part of your belief, then you should expect to have to explain what that means.

That you won't believe in a possible explanation of a supernatural or omnipotent in it...? My logic asks me to think so, but somewhere inside me something is turning that belief.... I am no longer able to confirm my ideology and also cannot disapprove of those facts which i had once inside me confirming to me that God is just imagination. I can no longer bring up those facts to my defense.....

I searched online a lot and that is how i ended up coming to this forum...

If you're seriously in a quest to explain what you think is divine intervention regarding pain etc. Here is a very informative talk by Dr. Ramachandran. At around the 11 minute mark he is describing how a patient who'd had his arm amputated still felt pain from the phantom arm, and how he cured him of it....please watch. Basically the brain is a very powerful thing and can convince you of many things that aren't real. Evolutionarily speaking this is a good thing, an animal needs to know when bodily damage is occurring so that it can be avoided, otherwise, the species would fade rather quickly.

Just think about anesthetic, all it does is redirect "pain"messages, physically, for example, you might be being cut with a scalpel, but through drugs, the message never reaches the brain, hence no pain.

No gods needed, just a relatively low level understanding of medical procedures and brain function.

Logged

rhocam ~ I guess there are several trillion cells in a man, and one in an amoeba, so to be generous, lets say that there were a billion. That is one every fifteen years. So in my lifetime I should have seen two evolutionary changes.

Viper, various illnesses can come and go. It doesn't mean that any thing was supernatural about them at all. Not all people get addicted, so again, there's nothing supernatural about that either. Wanting to say "god" did it is not an answer, it's a lazy excuse. And if a god did heal you, why no indication of which, out of the millions of gods, it is? You could spend your entire life running from church to temple to tree and still not get the "right" one. It becomes a poor man's Pascal's Wager, and at best, indicates your gods are rather inept.

Yes, i get it. I cannot never confirm ever whether it was because of those particular prayers of mine or not. I am not even sure if i was praying that day. I do not know what i said in my mind then. I just closed my eyes and lied there...

Maybe this is just a pause and the pain might be back some time later...? Who knows, right..?

Viper, various illnesses can come and go. It doesn't mean that any thing was supernatural about them at all. Not all people get addicted, so again, there's nothing supernatural about that either. Wanting to say "god" did it is not an answer, it's a lazy excuse. And if a god did heal you, why no indication of which, out of the millions of gods, it is? You could spend your entire life running from church to temple to tree and still not get the "right" one. It becomes a poor man's Pascal's Wager, and at best, indicates your gods are rather inept.

Yes, i get it. I cannot never confirm ever whether it was because of those particular prayers of mine or not. I am not even sure if i was praying that day. I do not know what i said in my mind then. I just closed my eyes and lied there...

Maybe this is just a pause and the pain might be back some time later...? Who knows, right..?

Look, you are here, at this forum full of atheists. Why, really? You are trying to make a claim about a possibility for why God won't heal amputees. You can clearly see that your possibility has more holes in it than an argument that Zeus is real, yet you persist?

I don't think you have angered anyone here. Rather, you have shown that you don't care about reality as much as you seem to care about possibilities? Why is that? You're not giving us good arguments or support for your assertion about the possibility in your first post in this thread.

Atheists have heard it all, practically. We don;t just accept a possibility without something behind it that is discernible from wishful thinking, or perhaps supernatural magic. Do you understand that point?

I will ask you one more time, and if you choose to ignore me, then I will stop replying to you.

The simplest explanation for the question, is that God is imaginary. God is not real. Do you have a better explanation for why God won't heal amputees? Or at least a refutation of my simple assertion, that God is not real.

Yes, i get it. I cannot never confirm ever whether it was because of those particular prayers of mine or not. I am not even sure if i was praying that day. I do not know what i said in my mind then. I just closed my eyes and lied there...

Maybe this is just a pause and the pain might be back some time later...? Who knows, right..?

Just do a simple probabilities exercise. Is it likely that a supernatural agent of some kind that has never been witnessed or documented throughout history intervened, or was is a natural occurrence that you simply cannot explain?

Logged

rhocam ~ I guess there are several trillion cells in a man, and one in an amoeba, so to be generous, lets say that there were a billion. That is one every fifteen years. So in my lifetime I should have seen two evolutionary changes.

Look, you are here, at this forum full of atheists. Why, really? You are trying to make a claim about a possibility for why God won't heal amputees. You can clearly see that your possibility has more holes in it than an argument that Zeus is real, yet you persist?

I don't think you have angered anyone here. Rather, you have shown that you don't care about reality as much as you seem to care about possibilities? Why is that? You're not giving us good arguments or support for your assertion about the possibility in your first post in this thread.

Atheists have heard it all, practically. We don;t just accept a possibility without something behind it that is discernible from wishful thinking, or perhaps supernatural magic. Do you understand that point?

I will ask you one more time, and if you choose to ignore me, then I will stop replying to you.

The simplest explanation for the question, is that God is imaginary. God is not real. Do you have a better explanation for why God won't heal amputees? Or at least a refutation of my simple assertion, that God is not real.

Assuming that God is imaginary I am in fact able to contradict many things again now. Thanks. So, God must be imaginary. I just hope that the fucking pain does not come back.

@Tykster.I agree with your question. It is more than just valid. And thanks for that link to the video. I just loved it. I watch TED often, but wonder how i missed this. Thanks again for that.

rhocam ~ I guess there are several trillion cells in a man, and one in an amoeba, so to be generous, lets say that there were a billion. That is one every fifteen years. So in my lifetime I should have seen two evolutionary changes.

Assuming that God is imaginary I am in fact able to contradict many things again now. Thanks. So, God must be imaginary. I just hope that the fucking pain does not come back.

Let me add that if praying, or some other form of therapy relieves your pain, I would not suggest you stop doing it! I'm sure you are well aware of the placebo effect. Mix that with the body's ability to self heal, and perhaps the mind's focus on helping with pain management.

Yes, i get it. I cannot never confirm ever whether it was because of those particular prayers of mine or not. I am not even sure if i was praying that day. I do not know what i said in my mind then. I just closed my eyes and lied there...Maybe this is just a pause and the pain might be back some time later...? Who knows, right..?

yep, who knows. It's not easy to get rid of beleive in god or gods, viper. Those of us who were believers know that very well. It's hard not to want to believe in such things since its very appealing to think that something powerful can take care of you.

Logged

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

The question WHY GOD WONT CURE AMPUTEES is not relevant if you consider it in Hinduist faith, but is in Christian faith. So, from that perspective i submit that my post here might have some merit to the reader. Thank you.

Actually, that's a pretty good point, one I never considered before. Now, answer me this, is there any tradition of faith healing within the Hindu tradition.

If No: Your point remains strong

If Yes; then why are amputees singled out as not being able to be healed, and we really still end up arriving to the same validity of the question to Hinduism as it does to Christianity.

Logged

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Okay...? Hardcore atheist. Lover of science. Fan of Stephen Hawking and believes in String theory, even though he has no understanding beyond that of a science student.

This has nothing to do with atheism.

An atheist lacks a belief in a god or gods; no more, no less. You run the risk of building strawmen arguments by insinuating more then the basic terminology.

Quote

Then walking back home, on the third day, he decides to have a go at a nearby place of God, with an intention of silently cursing that unfair God if he did in deed exist.

What kind of moron bothers with this?

Quote

I cannot prove any of this in anyway.

There is nothing that need be proved. Even if all the circumstances were true, it still does not logically follow that that a god exist. Your logic does not follow into the conclusion without making an arbitrary and baseless leap without proper reason to do so.

Quote

Is it, and might be a fantasy..?

It is all irrelevant, even if given the benefit of the doubt.. sometimes the human body reverses conditions it would not otherwise. The point is that you have no logical reason to believe it happened because a random series of circumstances, you've simply drawn that conclusion outside of your ability to know if it is true or not. Which is irrational and illogical.

Logged

"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

..people around here consider me as a nut and i have no friends at all.

I don't give a shit what you claim, I care about how you claim it.

- Being purposefully vague and contradictory, while at the same time babbling on as if you were actually building coherent arguments when you are not is intellectually dishonest.

- Ignoring the responses of others or simply responding with more vague unsupported assertions is again intellectually dishonest.

- Taking absolutely NO responsibility in your own assertions or your ability to support them, is intellectually dishonest.

If you haven't caught the hint, being intellectually dishonest is not seen as a respectful act. Don't try to implicate others in your own lack responsibility.

Quote

I have lost all my favorite arguments that i use when talking about it to theists...

Considering that you can't even deliver a single proper argument for any subject, I'm going to have seriously doubt this assertion.

Quote

That was why i came here and fought with the atheists.

Fought?

So you intentionally approached others with the intent to engage in antagonistic discussion, where you will accuse them of insulting you after you initially opened up with dishonest and inept argumentation. Not to mention where you will assert you were once an 'atheist' and 'understand' the 'atheist' position, yet seemingly can never accurately describe the position or arguments surrounding atheism.

Again, I'm leaning to you just being an insincere and dishonest little nobody, based on a series of observable actions you've made already. If you feel any animosity, then it is the animosity you brought.

Logged

"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me