zeb is a loser

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I think I can talk about Shell Smash Torterra for a bit and give a quick opinion on Trick Golurk.

Torterra by itself is already a monster, but with Shell Smash it would be on a whole other level. Torterra has a nice base 56 Speed tier that with a Jolly Nature and after the boost from Shell Smash would be able to put even the popular Scarf Rotom-A in its place, outspeeding it by a healthy amount. Unlike Gorebyss, Torterra's good Grass/Ground typing and great 95/105/85 defenses allow it to easily set up on a variety of Pokemon such as Golem, Regirock, and Rotom-S (When locked into Volt Switch) and destroy with its coverage in Wood Hammer, Earthquake, and Stone Edge. The fact that it has such a great STAB combination, ease in setting up, and its general bulk would make Torterra a centralizing force in the metagame as soon as it would come out. Following Torterra's prophetic appearance, Tangela would instantly turn to the spotlight once again as the most solid Torterra counter available while Amoonguss would be left in Tangela's shadow for a change. Usage from certain Pokemon such as Golem, Rotom-A, and Alomomola would decrease in favor of Pokemon that doesn't give Torterra such as easy time. Regirock would adapt and carry Ice Punch to prevent Torterra from freely getting up as many boosts as it can and Zebstrika would become a considerably more popular as a Scarf Pokemon. Zebstrika has the ability to revenge kill Torterra after a bit of damage with Overheat while still being capable of checking Gorebyss just the same, a huge thing to be able to claim in this what-if metagame.

Speaking of Gorebyss, I could see Dual Shell Smash teams featuring both Gorebyss and Torterra as they hold excellent synergy together and hit on the opposite side of the spectrum-Gorebyss special and Torterra physical. The kind of teams would be incredibly dangerous and both Torterra and Gorebyss fish out each other's checks/counters such as Gorebyss beating Tangela and Torterra smashing Rotom-A, Mantine, and Seismitoad. If Torterra really wanted to it could even run a Life Orb, a Naive Nature, and Hidden Power Ice over Stone Edge to get past Tangela after while still being able to go through Drifblim, Altaria, and Braviary after Stealth Rock. Shell Smash Torterra would be similar to how Gorebyss was in the beginning of BW, a dominating force without a sheer of a doubt.

About Trick Golurk, I don't think it would be too huge but could be beneficial for teammates. The only move it can really play around with would have to be Drain Punch as it needs Ice Punch to hit Tangela, Braviary, and Shell Smash Torterra. Against switch ins such as Alomomola, CB Golurk is already capable of 2HKOing with Stealth Rock, and even more likely with Spikes. Alomomola generally plays in a way where it switches in and tanks a hit, Wish, and passes immediately after so while Band would be crippling it's still isn't the absolute worst for Alomomola. Tricking Tangela your Choice Band also doesn't really do too much in terms of it against Golurk, as your Ice Punch without CB is doing the same amount to an Evio-less Tangela as CB Ice Punch would do to an Evio one. However, removing Tangela's item and locking into a move makes for a nice opportunity to Shell Smash with Torterra. Golurk also makes a fine Tangela lure so doing so Tricking it shouldn't be too hard.

Moderator

With both Speed and Power on the same set, Torterra has the ability to break through most of the tier. Even normally, if you let RP Torterra set up, you'd need and extremely solid physical wall to stop it. On the other hand, if it is a SD variant, there are few walls in the tier that aren't 2HKO by Torterra, especially with some hazards up. Imagining both boosts along with White Herb removing the defense drops, and you have yourself a monster. Since it outspeeds Scarf Rotom-A and even Scarf base 91s by a point, you'd need a Scarf base 92+ to revenge kill it. That gives us a few options, and a few of the best are: Charizard, Raichu, Electabuzz, Zebstrika, and the Simis. They all can revenge kill Torterra after some hazard damage/prior damage, but that isn't exactly a reliable way to deal with it. Tanking its attacks is hard as well, since it can actually break through the Alomomoonguss core with some hazards.

These calcs are provided in a vacuum of course, but generally hazards will be up. Other natures, EV spreads, field situation, and general damage may skew the calcs after all. But Tangela and Weezing do work well as some of the best Torterra counters in the tier. Bulky Grass-types in general are a good option, though Tangela seems to do the job best due to its higher Special Attack and common usage of HP Ice. If SS Torterra became a reality, then I predict a massive rise in these two Pokes, and perhaps a rise in powerful Special Attackers that can remove them, like Charizard and Regice.

What if Rotom-S got Hurricane?

Besides the obvious flavor, Hurricane will finally give Rotom-S an attack that can match its brethren. An attack that can practically OHKO all the Fighting types of the tier after Rocks is not one to sneeze at. Combined with the already decent coverage that Electric and Flying bring,and only opposing Electric and Rock/Ground types can really wall it. It even 2HKOs Golurk, on of the better offensive checks to Rotom-S. Still, most of its original counters still stop it, bar super-effective Hidden Powers. The standard Scarf set will still rely on Trick to cripple opposing special walls, while the Rain support set simply gains a more powerful and accurate STAB move to abuse. The SubSplit set doesn't really change much either. However, a Choice Specs set with a lot of hazard support is much more viable, though locking yourself into Hurricane may not be wise. I'll post some calcs for the Scarf and Specs sets just to note the power difference.

Looking at these calcs, I think Hurricane is a bit overhyped due to players' wish to have a stronger STAB move.

Finally, I'll ask a question of my own: What if Gigalith and/or Marowak received Sand Rush as their Dream World Ability?

The reason I asked this is because Sand is a pretty terrible weather in NU. With so many viable setters and abusers, Rain and Sun teams are the dominant weathers in a metagame where weather is still pretty rare. If a viable Sand abuser or two arrives in the tier, would it bring Sand into the limelight? Both of these abusers are still slower than other weather sweepers like Exeggutor and Ludicolo, so would it be worth the effort either?

What if Flareon got Flare Blitz?
Ah the possibiltys of this situation.Lets say A new event Flare Blitz flareon got realeased.How would the metagame shift to fit in this new possible threat?Well,with this new move Flareon would probaly break top 10 in usage because of its now increased versatility,A Choice Scarf Set would mainly be used to show off its raw power between Flare Blitz/Superpower/Return/Batton Pass* (*-Would be used like a Mini U turn especialy for scouting),As it has even more raw power than Emboar(Emby has 123,Flareon has 130)And can completely devistate teams ,while Emboar does still have STAB on Superpower and the awesome Wild Charge,Flareon does have more attack,bulk,same speed,and Baton Pass for momentum.And A guts set w/ toxic orb would be Amazing for its devistating power with Flare Blitz/Superpower/Facade/Batton Pass or Bite would be amazing but only as a suicide sweeper due to the omnipresent Recoil.Overall FB Flareon would be Amazing,but not broken it has its Flaws and Positive traits.

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Eh I don't really see what Flareon actually has that would make someone want to use it over Emboar. Emboar's Fighting-typing is quite huge as it gives it a neutrality to Stealth Rock and a nice STAB boost on Superpower. Emboar's movepool is also quite large with moves such as Wild Charge, Head Smash, and Grass Knot. Even though not explored very often, Emboar also holds a higher Special Attack stat if it wants to go that route. Even though Flareon has 7 Base Attack higher than Emboar, this isn't really enough to warrant Flareon usage over Emboar. Emboar holds better STAB, better typing (Resisting Sucker Punch and being neutral to Stealth Rock), better coverage options, and the same base 65 Speed that let Emboar get the job done better than Flareon in almost every occasion.

Now about the bulk thing; Emboar has 110/65/65 defenses and Flareon sits at 65/60/110. Emboar has vastly superior physical bulk and has similar resilience on the special side as Flareon:

The main thing Flareon would have over Emboar would be Guts (Which is really just a Choice Band with the ability to switch moves), however Stealth Rock, Toxic Orb, and Flare Blitz recoil rack up way too quickly for it to be of much use throughout a match. Since this is a theorymon thread, we could even assume that Emboar has Reckless released and it now becomes completely clear who the victor is.

Speaking of Reckless Emboar, what do other people think about how it will affect the metagame? I think Reckless with affect the Scarf set the most, because most of the time it's already killing something as soon as it comes in with its Choice Band set. The Scarf set will greatly appreciate the added power to its attacks in helping it take down Pokemon more reliably such as physically defensive Amoonguss, standard Ludicolo, and standard Gurdurr. While the Choice Band set doesn't really get any extra kills thanks to it, the added power is still greatly appreciated for finishing Pokemon in middling amounts of HP. (Such as a Musharna at 65%; something non-Reckless Emboar could not pick off)

What if Gigalith and/or Marowak received Sand Rush as their Dream World Ability?

I do not think that sand would get any real amount of usage by having Sand Rush Gigalith or Marowak. Sure, maybe a few random teams will pop out every once in a while, but outside of those Sand Rush mons it's just not worth it. Manual Sand doesn't have nearly the same amount of benefits as Rain and Sun (Especially with Sand Veil being banned. Cacturne ;_;) and making a team around it would be very awkward if you try to push for as many abusers as possible. (Only really Rocks, What-If Sand Rushers, and Drilbur) I think out of Gigalith and Marowak, the latter would be far superior with the +2 boost in Speed as it has tremendous power thanks to its Thick Club and a great Ground-type STAB. However, if you really wanted to use a +2 Speed Marowak there is always the option of using NinWak. With Ninjask passing Marowak Speed boosts and Marowak keeping the Rock Blast users away, the two make a great pair and would probably be more effective than attempting to make a manual Sandstorm team.

What if Gigalith and/or Marowak received Sand Rush as their Dream World Ability?

I don't think this would really be a big deal for the NU tier. While Sandstorm would become a slightly better version of Rock Polish for Gigalith when self-induced, I don't think Sandtorm would convey enough other benefits to warrant using a manual setter with the Sand Rock or whatever it's called. Marowak getting a pseudo-Rock Polish would be pretty cool though, so it would probably see a little more usage. That is, if Sand Rush Marowak doesn't go OU due to 518 Atk and 414 Spe in Sand Stream. Even Adamant Marowak would outspeed Tornadus-T, Dugtrio and Alakazam, and can easily sweep with 568 Atk.

What if Flareon got Flare Blitz?

What EBeast doesn't some to have realised is that Flareon's key advantage over Emboar would be its Flash Fire, which allows it to gain an attack boost from Will-O-Wisp and the various Fire attacks that are floating around. Band Flareon would be able to dent serious holes in teams if it managed to get the boost switching in, and Superpower destroys all other Flash Fire users apart from Lampent. The lack of Wild Charge and other coverage moves would be a bummer, though. Even defensive sets would make good use of Flare Blitz, as it provides Flareon with far more offensive presence than Lava Plume, and the residual damage can be healed off with the occasional Wish.

Eh I don't really see what Flareon actually has that would make someone want to use it over Emboar.Lets see Guts,Higher attack,flash fire,mini u-turn in batton pass
Emboar's Fighting-typing is quite huge as it gives it a neutrality to Stealth Rock and a nice STAB boost on Superpower.But the psychic weakness is a pleague also the Flying weakness is huge in a tier where Braviary is S rank
Emboar's movepool is also quite large with moves such as Wild Charge, Head Smash, and Grass Knot.Moore?More?What is it good for?Wild Charge is kind of useless as a STAB Superpower=SE Wild Charge,Head Smash is horrible unSTABD as it takes 1/2 recoil and is weaker than STAB Flare Blitz and Superpower,And Grass Knot dosent do very much to NUs bulky watersEven though not explored very often, Emboar also holds a higher Special Attack stat if it wants to go that route. Even though Flareon has 7 Base Attack higher than Emboar, this isn't really enough to warrant Flareon usage over Emboar.Oh the irony,you just said Emboar is better because it has literaly 5 higher special attack than flareon and said Flareons only edge is 7 higher attack wich isnt even true Emboar holds better STAB, better typing (Resisting Sucker Punch and being neutral to Stealth Rock), better coverage options, and the same base 65 Speed that let Emboar get the job done better than Flareon.So you list all of Emboars positives and none of its negetives and list flareons negetives and no positives and you say its better than flareon because of you "facts"?I am done with this guy.Look at some of erisas post for more arguments

Moderator

Well if Flareon uses Guts, it turns into a vicious wallbreaker. It'll die pretty quickly, but it'll do damage to a team that relies on bulk to handle it. With Flash Fire, the slightly higher Attack stat kind of pales in comparison to Emboar's Fighting STAB and higher base power moves. Instead, it'll have to rely on its bulk to truly compete, being able to switch into a good amount of Special attackers (Psychic types significantly) and scare them out with a powerful Flare Blitz. As for Baton Pass on offensive sets to make up for lack of coverage: I don't think Flareon wants to be forced out without inflicting even a little damage to its checks (U-turn/Volt Switch can at least wear down counters and checks). Hazards take its toll on Flareon, especially on offensive sets; there really isn't any point for BP on defensive sets.

Flareon's neutrality to Psychic types and high Special Defense makes it considerably better against them, though none of them can safely switch in to either one's Flare Blitz. The neutrality to Flying types is a bit negligible, since Flareon isn't taking any physical ones regardless (which are the more common ones). Also Oiawesome, please spell it as "plague" rather than pleague.

To Oiawesome: Now Emboar's neutrality to Stealth Rocks and resistance to Sucker Punch gives it an advantage over Flareon. Flareon's low HP stat in comparison makes it less able to spam Flare Blitz without having to Wish/Leftovers to compensate. Investing EVs in HP means you lose out in Speed, which makes Emboar more effective at recklessly spamming its STAB move(s). It's coverage may seem useless to Oiawesome, but I feel it plays an important part is making Emboar a better offensive choice. Sure, Wild Charge is inferior against most Water-types when compared to STAB Superpower, but only if you can KO them. Against the bulky Waters, Wild Charge and hazards is much more effective, since you can inflict the reliable amount of damage to them. Head Smash is meant for Altaria mostly, but what's wrong with that? Emboar already hits most of the tier neutrally, so why not have a move that specifically targets one of its counters? As for its Special sets, Flareon's lower SAtk stat doesn't matter as much as the fact that Emboar has much more coverage moves than Hidden Power and Shadow Ball (or Stored Power for Baton Pass teams maybe?). Btw, most players use HP Grass rather than Grass Knot for the exact reason you mentioned. Defensive sets are definitely improved with the addition of Flare Blitz though, with erisia already stating the facts. I think I've covered enough of both the positives and negatives, don't you?

What if Kangaskhan got Bulk Up?

Seriously, it looks like it can lift some weights! A SubBU set looks pretty effective, especially with Scrappy letting you hit Ghosts. Drain Punch provides recovery, or else you can use Wish. It does lack the same pure power that SubBU/SD Braviary/Throh/Lickilicky/Leafeon/etc. have, but at least it can heal and damage at the same time. It has similar bulk and significantly more Speed than many of its fellows. It can even utilize Circle Throw to abuse hazards and Scrappy, though I fail to see the point. Any thoughts?

I give up on the Flareon thing I can see that I will get some posts deleted and Infracticated and I dont want that to happen but I think I got a good one:

What if Absol got Moxie

This thing deserves moxie 130 attack,dark type and the designe of absol really fit Moxie.This thing is already the king of NU even if its not #1 in usage its one of THE BEST pokemon in this HO meta.Moxie would grant it suspect at least,It has THE strongest priority in the game,add swords danc,Amazing Anti meta typing,amazing covrage,no true counters,one check and when you add moxie to the mix it becomes fucking rediculous(excuse my profanity).Gurdurr would be evreywhere to check it because even if you resist sucker punch,your still gonna take a fuck load from a +3 or +5 SP.Basicly its honchkrow w/o flying STAB and higher attack AND Swords Dance.

What if Rampardos got Rock Head?

Oh god this thing has the second highest attack in the game tied only with Kyurem B.And its look basicly says " I HAVE A ROCK HEAD WHY DONT I GET ROCK HEAD?WTF GOLEM?" lol,And considering This things head smash is the strongest physical attack in the game and add no recoil and you get a monster double dance will be populer since LO Head Smash still fails to KO some things and a +2 LLo Head Smash 2HKOs evreything in NU,This thing would be rediculously good or powerfull

If Shelgon got Regenerator, it's physically defensive Wish support set would gain a lot of usage. It would make up for its lack of reliable recovery, and it would make an excellent pivot due to its good typing and bulk. It looks like a mon that could get Regenerator although it seems unorthodox considering mence but its a beach ball ! Regenerator would also make up for its kind of weakness to hazards since it doesn't always have to use Wish to recover HP. It would be a fun thing in NU to use and would not be broken by any means (I think).

What if Cinccino got Swords Dance?

Swords Dance on Cinccino would be pretty cool. It would obviously go over U-turn to make Cinccino a deadly, little sweeper. Although it might seem broken at first, it is very frail so setting up an SD is really hard, it still gets walled by stuff like Mawile and Probopass, and it is vulnerable to priority attacks from the likes of Gurdurr and Skuntank. Cinccino forces out a lot of switches so you can find opportunities to SD there although it is risky. Once it's counters/checks are removed, Cinccino would have an easy time sweeping. It would also be really good on Dual Screens HO teams as well, probably.

Oiawesome, could you please make sure your posts are spelled better please? One way is by putting it through Microsoft Word's spellcheck. It would help all of us understand your posts with more clarity as well as increase the validity of your posts. :)

WhiteD covered most of what I would have said as a follow up for Flareon, but I'll mention a few more things. The thing about Emboar having higher Special Attack is that it actually has a special movepool other than Fire Blast and Hidden Power Grass, unlike Flareon. The neutrality to Stealth Rock and resistance to Sucker Punch is actually quite huge as it allows Emboar to switch in and attack more often, while being able to withstand one of them most common priority used in NU is huge as well. Emboar's negatives are basically the same as Flareon's; weakness to Water-type attacks being the major one. Like WhiteD said Flareon's main advantage would just be a lack of Psychic-type weakness and slightly higher amount of special bulk. Flareon's lack of a Flying-type weakness is somewhat irrelevant as it's awful Defense will ensure it won't be living any Brave Birds any time soon. (Specially not after Stealth Rock takes away 25% of its health.) I do admit I forgot about Flareon's Flash Fire being an advantage, however it is not a completely reliable one at that. You will not be able to activate Flareon's Flash Fire consistently enough every game that will really make it worth giving up STAB Superpower.

Anyways I'll get to some other posts as well. Bulk Up Kangaskhan would awesome as it already has a good amount of natural bulk, Drain Punch, and access to Scrappy. Scrappy and Drain Punch are huge here as together they grant Kanga perfect coverage and a source of recovery outside of Leftovers. It would be an interesting option to use over SubBU Braviary as Kanga's base 95 Speed and perfect coverage sets it apart. Apart from Bulk Up being abused with Substitute I could see something like Bulk Up + 3 Attacks working pretty well on Kangaskhan as well since it's not too hard to set up with Kanga's good bulk and after a boost it is extremely hard to retaliate against it.

Moxie Absol would be incredible to say the least. Absol is already very powerful but with the ability to get an Attack boost for every kill it would be amazingly hard to stop it. Moxie would allows Absol to easily snowball past teams with Sucker Punch and even negate the Attack drop from a Superpower KO. Moxie would make 4 Attacks Absol even stronger than it already is as it can use its offensive presence to nab a nice Moxie boost by Pursuiting a Psychic- or Ghost-type or even get an Attack boost as a reword for taking down a Gurdurr with Psycho Cut. If people thought not having a Dark-type resist made playing offense hard enough before, they'll have another thing coming with Moxie Absol. Absol is already practically off to RU and Moxie will just cement it over in the higher tiers.

What if Samurott got Lightningrod?
If Seaking can get lightningrod with its horn than it would also make sense for Samurott to receive this ability. Not only would Samurott enjoy the electric immunity but the special boost would make the special set even more incredible than it already is.To take care of Samurotts only weakness; grass, you could run blizzard on Samurott with Snover for hail support to make Samurott nearly unstoppable.

Moderator

Assuming that Wish being legal is also included with this theorymon, I would say that Shelgon would give this tier another decent physical wall. It has slightly less physical bulk than Tangela, but a better defensive typing overall. The resistances to Fire, Electric, Water, and Grass are excellent to make up for Shelgon's rather low Special Defense (being common Special attacking types). It is a great defense against even CB Emboar and Braviary, with Wish+Protect stopping most Choiced physical attackers easily (as well as most other physical attackers). Regenerator will let you maintain high HP even when your opponent inevitably switches to their Special Attackers, making Shelgon very tough to kill.

Regenerator makes offensive sets very viable as well. Shelgon typically takes a lot of damage trying to set up a DD, and it's still extremely slow even after a boost (+2 Shelgon is still outsped and KOed by Scarf Rotom-F after all). Regenerator would let Shelgon hit and run until the time is finally right for a sweep. Even if your sweep suddenly gets interrupted, you'll still be able to get away with enough HP to possibly attempt another sweep. It's ability to possibly set up gives it more options than Tangela.

What if Samurott got Lightningrod?

This ability would be excellent, since outside of Petaya Berry and BP, Samurott has no way to increase its SAtk. Rain and Torrent help improve its STAB, but your other moves really want a boost in power. Lightningrod would let Samurott check the Rotom-formes, non-HP Grass Electric types, and will make walls and tanks think twice about spamming Thunder Wave. Samurott literally becomes an amazing anti-lead, since Regirock tend to bank on Hydro Pump misses to Thunder Wave Samurott before setting up Rocks (that is, if they don't want their other Pokes to eat a Hydro Pump). On or against Hail teams, Samurott can basically overpower Regice and Rotom-F and even take advantage of possibly boosted Blizzards. A Sap Sipper teammate, or just a Hail team, would cover the Grass weakness of Samurott, making Samurott a monster to defeat.

Now, because of the Hail metagame and my love for it:

What if Articuno got Ice Body?

We've already seen how effective Ice Body is for both offensive and defensive Pokemon. Walrein becomes the epitome of Hail Stall teams on its own, while Glaceon and Vanilluxe can abuse SubProtect to wear down opponents before going in for the cold kill. Articuno has the benefits of: reliable recovery, higher Speed, monstrous defenses, STAB Hurricane, and the ability to be either a wall or attacker. The Rock weakness is greatly multiplied on a Hail team already, but all good Hail teams should already account for this. Roost and Ice Body also make up for this greatly, meaning you have less to worry about overall.

The SubRoost set becomes a monster to take down, with Hail making up for the possible lack of Toxic/Toxic Spikes. With so many good options for a fourth move (Hurricane and Protect being the best), Toxic may not even be necessary. The defensive set enjoys the extra recovery, and also has more utility for your team than a pure stalling would.

Still, the set that would most enjoy the ability would probably be the LO Offensive set. Even with a Modest nature, Articuno outspeeds similar sets from Glaceon and Vanilluxe. While less powerful, the higher bulk and neutrality to Mach Punch makes is harder to break. STAB Blizzard and Hurricane is really all it needs offensively, since Steel types can be dealt with by teammates (Sawk) or just worn down by Blizzard. That gives more room for both Sub and Roost, an advantage that the other Ice types don't have. It's so purty! :3

Drifblim is a pretty cool Spinblocker, but the fact of the matter is that there are absolutely zero spinblockers in the tier that are capable of healing themselves. While Drifblim isn't exactly the most bulky thing, it stands out for doing one thing very, very well - disruption. Thanks to its typing it has quite a few options to swich into, mainly Choice Fighting-type moves which are somewhat easy to predict (and also the occasional Earthquakes). Imagine the current AcroBlimp set, but instead with Roost over Substitute. It would be able to perform its role multiple times (when you think about it, Drifblim can really only do what it needs to once and then pretty much just die). In addition, if there is a set that runs Substitute, then Drifblim could just use Roost to heal damage from the move, which is much more efficient that Leftovers. Finally, Roost allows it to take a Rock move from something like a Sawk in case it tries to predict around it (or bluff some item, even though that case is very rare) as well as Ground (or Rock) Pokemon that try to get through it with Stone Edge after Drifblim switches in on Earthquake - they may be able to do it in with a Burned Stone Edge after 2 turns, but they will never succeed if Drifblim can Roost and possibly stall them out a little bit. Even then, a spinblocker that isn't Frillish with instant recovery would be really nice to have.

What if Zebstrika got Flare Blitz?

While the electric zebra needs a lot more than just Flare Blitz on the physical side... its a good start at least. With Wild Charge and Flare Blitz, it has enough moves so then it can utilize its better Attack rather than its Special Attack for its two main moves. While it doesn't get as powerful of a Hidden Power Grass, Zebstrika wasn't beating Rock or Ground-type Pokemon in the first place oftentimes. Hidden Power Ice was literally for 2 Pokemon as well. Also, using Wild Charge is huge for beating Ludicolo, since Ludicolo is more vulnerable on the physical side than the special side, and Zebby has the niche of outspeeding it in the rain. In addition, it could actually use Sap Sipper for something userful, and having a 120 BP super effective move to smash Amoonguss with would be very nice. Also, it gets a free switch in on Ludicolo if it is using Giga Drain and Chlorophyll users spamming Solarbeam. It could still run Volt Switch to scout for stuff, since its Special Attack isn't unusable uninvested. It wouldn't really be devastating, but I think it would be more effective at its role. Also, Overheat can be annoying with the Special Attack drops, so being able to not have to switch out every two seconds is nice.

Cnidali is a Poison/Fighting type Fakemon that was made alongside Birkal in #neverused earlier tonight that was made to be a bulky offensive Pokemon capable of abusing STAB Drain Punch, Regenerator, and its fantastic typing in many ways. Cnidali comes equipped with its signature move Sting Jab, which functions as a Poison-type Body Slam, and Bulk Up, which allows it to boost on a myriad of Pokemon such as Gurdurr, Alomomola, and Amoonguss. It even has access to Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, and Rapid Spin, allowing it to become an excellent support and pivot. What are your guy's opinions on Cnidali? Would it fit into the NU metagame or would it break it completely?

It looks good on paper but it has CAP syndrome which means it has an entirely way too convenient movepool which inevitably breaks it. With just the information given, it likely makes its way into the top 5 on the strengths of Regenerator + Rapid Spin alone, as the tier is quite starved for spinners. However it's typing is quite exaggerated, as bug and poison resists are almost useless, and grass is only average, especially with grass types like Torterra and Exeggutor being able to KO it anyway.

However what breaks it really is deep exploration of it's movepool which includes convenient options like Sucker Punch which largely mitigates it's low speed and 4x weakness to Psychic as well as access to Mach Punch. Sucker Punch allows it to deal with things like Eggy and Gardevoir as well as threatening Golurk.

Add in versatile moves like Pain Split and you easily talking about a UU calibre mon.

Sting Jab is honestly quite mediocre and likely wouldn't even be used.

It's not THAT bulky but a Max/Max set with Rapid Spin and SR as well as the rare and dubious Magic Coat would likely be a good set to prevent it from being 2HKO'd by Neutrals while abusing Regenerator.

A Tank set with Sucker Punch, Mach Punch, Drain Punch and Bulk Up seems quite obvious.

It could do something interesting things behind a sub, so a SubPunch set could work or a SubSplit set could work, but those sort of things are better tested in practice rather than theory.

Hell, with it's access to moves like Close Combat, which bulky fighting types like Gurdurr lack, it can even run an LO All out Attacker set.

I think it looks kind of broken to me. It has a nice typing (kind of), has nice Attack and has very nice bulk. I don't think adding CAP Pokemon will help the NU Metagame AT ALL, but I'll leave the others to decide.

Social Media Chief

I'm not really sure where the drawbacks of Cnidali are that would keep it in NU. It doesn't seem broken on paper but it immediately becomes a good check to a bunch of RU mons (looking at things like Cryogonal, Rotom-C, Lilligant, Ferroseed, Drapion, etc). I don't see how it wouldn't move up to RU.

Moderator

Cnidali seems to be a very threatening theorymon, with a defensive typing perfecty suited for taking hits from Gurdurr and non-EQ Sawk. I see it possibly fitting many different roles, which already makes it super versatile (that movepool!).

As a spinner, I find it the most poor. It doesn't easily beat any of the Ghosts in the tier (Missy can Will-O-Wisp, Haunter SubDisables it to death, Drifblim can Acrobatics or use the same methods, Golurk KOs while Crunch probably won't KO back without a boost, and even Frillish/Lampent can threaten it a little).

As a Bulk Up sweeper, I think it'll be a major threat. Drain Punch gives it a Gurdurr like role, but with the ability to either run Leftovers or Life Orb/Fist Plate. Then there's Mach Punch, Sucker Punch, Ice Punch, and Crunch as useful coverage. Of course, it'll be very vulnerable to Ground and Psychic attacks, especially when it hasn't boosted. Being faster than Gurdurr does help it out when setting up on walls though, and it has the luxury of even using Substitute to block status.

As for LO/Chocied attacker sets, it's low Speed and initial damage output may deter such sets. Granted, base 66 Spe outspeeds Emboar, but as a Fighting type attacker it lacks the base Atk. Since Psychic, Flying, and Ground are still common attacking types, it won't have free reign to run through teams with its type coverage either.

Of course, none of this factors in Regenerator. The ability to switch out and try again later is what truly differentiates Cnidali from the likes of Gurdurr/Sawk/Emboar/Throh. Hazards are only a slight irritation, since you can easily recover off the damage. Toxic Spikes pose no problem, while Rocks barely get noticed. Being walled by Poison-types is a problem, but at least you can't be Toxiced (though Burns from Weezing are crippling).

As a utility support mon, I can see it being quite a nuisance. Stealth Rock is a given, with the ability to inflict heavy damage on common leads/anti-leads a nice bonus. Toxic Spikes are alright, especially since Cnidali has Sub and Ice Punch to scare off Amoonguss. It doesn't stop pure Poison types from removing the T-Spikes, but its still better than what Garbodor can do to them.

As for a pure defensive mon, Pain Split and Circle Throw take the cake for those sets. It can even combine sets to act like Throh, with Bulk Up and RestTalk to back up CT. Again, the additional weaknesses don't help it much for this kind of role; the lower overall bulk compared to Throh also makes it a bit less effective from what I can tell. In truth, I should also look at Cnidali as a defensive/offensive Poison mon, in which case it is a less physically bulky Weezing with a EQ weakness.

So overall, I think that we shouldn't be too quick to call Cnidali broken. It has a lot of options, but maybe if we look at the current metagame a little more, we may see how each possible set actually fares. All the counters to pwerful Fighting-types remain the same for Cnidali, and we add on the Poison counters. Offensively, it relies on non-STAB moves just as much as the other pure Fighting types for coverage against its checks. Truthfully, the only thing about it that seems remotely broken is the BU set, which I find to be reminiscent of Gurdurr's set. Since it still shares the same counters and checks (unless you use its Posion STAB for Tangela maybe?), I don't quite see the problem as being so large that our highly versatile tier can't adapt to. Still, it is probably best that this is still just a theorymon CAP, since the other tiers may just take Cnidali for themselves (maybe RU at least).

Cnidali's wide movepool is deceiving: in practice, it will probably only be using a few of those moves. There are numerous flaws with most of the moves it could use.

I think the best Cnidali set will end up being this: Bulk Up / Drain Punch / Sting Jab / Rapid Spin with a specially defensive spread. What WhiteDMist overlooked when talking about Cnidali's ability to spin is its durability. Cnidali will be very hard to wear down giving it many opportunities to Rapid Spin hazards away. Ghost-type Pokemon are not too common in NU, although they are annoying. At least they are easy to get rid of with something like Absol, though. I imagine a PDF core of Musharna / Absol / Cnidali being pretty awesome.

Poison + Fighting coverage really is not that bad. You miss out on Poison-types, however, do you actually miss out on Poison-types without using Ice Punch? Not really, because they cannot do anything to you. You also miss out on Ghost-types, but most of them don't take that much damage from Ice Punch, and Crunch + Rapid Spin is an illegal combination because of egg moves. Poison Jab would be an awesome move because it hits hard AND has the potential of paralyzing at the same time.

Cnidali's presence would probably be similar to Skuntank's in this meta: it is an amazingly reliable Pokemon that does extremely well at the jobs you need it for, but it is nowhere near broken.

CAP Head Mod

Just wanted to mention quick that Cnidali isn't a CAP whatsoever; it's a fakemon. For those of you who don't know, the Create-A-Pokemon Project is a community that spends months creating a Pokemon for competitive use. It even gets put on the simulator once we're all done! CAP is all about discussion, voting, and concepts. If you're interested in more of that, check out the CAP forums. This, on the other hand, is just something that we mashed together on IRC in an hour or two.

Cnidali, if anything, belongs more to the NU community than it does to CAP. All I did was come in #neverused and ask guiding questions. So yeah, feel free to theorymon about this fakemon as much as you like. Maybe we'll do it again sometime, if y'all are interested in doing another one of these. Enjoy your fakemon~

Cnidali doesn't seem that amazing. It's reasonably bulky, but Psychic, Ground and Flying attacks murder it so that's dangerous in a Gardevoir/Braviary/Musharna/Golurk metagame. It's got an excellent support movepool and the bulk to use it, but at the same time there are a lot of things that easily shut it down. In fact, Golurk stomps it six ways to Sunday unless it's running Ice Punch or Crunch. It'd likely replace Garbodor and reduce usage of Butterfree, and will be a nice pivot... but I don't see it as gamebreaking so far, especially since it can't really scratch Ghosts without several BU boosts or Crunch, and if it runs Crunch it means it's not running Toxic Spikes or Rapid Spin.

i'm pretty sure cnidali will not affect the metagame through being an amazing defensive pokemon or sweeper. instead it will take its place as the most reliable rapid spinner and toxic spikes setter. even if the opponent switches in a spin-blocker, cnidali can simply switch out at little cost thanks to regenerator and a resistance to stealth rocks. it is a better toxic spikes user than garbodor in almost every aspect, which means it will find a home on stall or hail teams that benefit from it. cnidali's offensive movepool and decent attack is just icing on the cake and prevents it from being set up bait. i would probably use a support set similar to this:

Mantine has always wanted recovery, as being weak to SR and a crippling weakness to Electric has prevented it from being the special wall it desperately wanted to be. Roost allows Mantine to effectively stall out many opponents and frustrate many Grass-types due to being neutral to their attacks and having a SE STAB Air Slash. In particular, Mantine would become Ludicolo's best counter. Roost also enables Mantine to shed his Rock weakness and halve his Electric weakness, and Mantine's typing naturally gives him resistances to Fire, Fighting and Bug, making him a solid anti-metagame check with a decent base speed. He'd still get frustrated by Toxic, but no reason to expect perfection.

What if Floatzel got Work Up?

I still don't know why he didn't. There isn't much point for Floatzel to gain Swords Dance now, as Samurott is better at sweeping with it and Ninjask is better at BPing it. On the other hand, with an excellent speed and decent offenses on both ends, Work Up would allow Floatzel to rip through many Pokemon with a combination of its decent offensive moveset - its issue would still be a case of 4MSS - I can see offensive Floatzels running Hydro Pump and Ice Beam, with the fourth move either being Focus Blast or Crunch, both of which have merits. Floatzel would also be able to BP Work Up, giving it a unique niche that can benefit mixed sweepers.