Science as only one way of knowing - Atheist Nexus2017-08-18T03:03:43Zhttp://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/science-as-only-one-way-of-knowing?id=2182797%3ATopic%3A2069057&feed=yes&xn_auth=noAlso, the fact that science g…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-11-22:2182797:Comment:21065972012-11-22T14:03:30.736ZLuarahttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/Luara
<p>Also, the fact that science gave us nuclear bombs makes people turn away from it. Sure, we all depend on the technology that science made possible, every day. And in many ways it has made our lives better. </p>
<p>But science has also made it possible that hugely many people could die horrible deaths, at any time. </p>
<p>This reality is so awful that people block it out and it propagates in people's mindsets like a subterranean stream.</p>
<p>Also, the fact that science gave us nuclear bombs makes people turn away from it. Sure, we all depend on the technology that science made possible, every day. And in many ways it has made our lives better. </p>
<p>But science has also made it possible that hugely many people could die horrible deaths, at any time. </p>
<p>This reality is so awful that people block it out and it propagates in people's mindsets like a subterranean stream.</p> Yes, and of any legislation,…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-11-09:2182797:Comment:20976652012-11-09T20:08:22.348ZArt Eatonhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/ArtEaton
<p>Yes, and of any legislation, one must first identify the intended abuse. Self interest (presumably to support your immediate tribe, or your position as an alpha breeder) is a "moral" human behavior. Bluff, conn, ambush and camouflage are all tactics used by moral animals. The Pacific Octopus and the Grey wolf are exceptional at all four.</p>
<p>As to not being able to test a moral hypothesis by investigation (methods notwithstanding) is something to which I do not agree. You list "logic"…</p>
<p>Yes, and of any legislation, one must first identify the intended abuse. Self interest (presumably to support your immediate tribe, or your position as an alpha breeder) is a "moral" human behavior. Bluff, conn, ambush and camouflage are all tactics used by moral animals. The Pacific Octopus and the Grey wolf are exceptional at all four.</p>
<p>As to not being able to test a moral hypothesis by investigation (methods notwithstanding) is something to which I do not agree. You list "logic" as a process along with religion as an alternative method. Logic (not apologetics) is merely the process that the scientific method serves to discipline. It is a systematic approach to using logic. Merely "strong logic" vs. ad hoc off the cuff logic.</p>
<p>We are the product of the process of evolution. Anthropological and genetic/biomechanical studies are quite useful in identifying our impulses and our belief systems (theology being only one example). Our morals, and our ideologies are created from the codification of our base impulses. Thou shalt not kill says "You are a pack animal, and you must take care of the pack". That does not (as in the bible) extend to the folks in the village over the mountain who dress and look different, because they are not of the genetic line our genes are tuned to protect...at least when push comes to shove. As for those, the good book says "Happy <i>shall he be</i>, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. "</p>
<p> Moral humans look after their own. Moral monkeys do to, but to a lesser extent. Moral Humans must go kill and steal cattle from others in times of hunger rather than let their own babies suffer. Moral monkeys fling shit at the other monkeys and then go rub genitals with their mothers.</p>
<p> There isn't a damn thing that you or I do that cannot be directly related to the expression of our genes. Period. There are no mysterious forces driving our thoughts and beliefs. We are no different than a virus except in one aspect: When we become such a virulent strain that we start killing our host, we can become aware of the fact, and we *<em>theoretically</em>* have the options to limit our effectiveness as a predator to ensure preservation of our genes over time, vs using up the host or only surviving in environments that keep our new strain in check.</p>
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<p>Strawberry ice cream vs. chocolate ice cream is very testable. Ask someone which one they want. Since "taste" does not exist any more than "run" exists, you are not evaluating the existence of something, you are evaluating a behavior. You can also add "variety" to your testing run, which is what the people really want. Sometimes the answer is chocolate, sometimes strawberry. I prefer chocolate covered strawberries</p> The original post raises an i…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-11-09:2182797:Comment:20976542012-11-09T19:03:10.397Zlucas fergusonhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/lucasferguson
<p>The original post raises an interesting point because there are a number of things which science can't (or maybe shouldn't) be consulted on. A few examples -</p>
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<p>Ethical issues: you can't test a moral hypothesis in a lab or by experimentation (at least not easily). Therefore you need another belief system (a philosopher, a religion, logic, what you feel like) on which to base ethical decisions.</p>
<p>Subjective importance e.g. of children: most parents feel their children are…</p>
<p>The original post raises an interesting point because there are a number of things which science can't (or maybe shouldn't) be consulted on. A few examples -</p>
<p></p>
<p>Ethical issues: you can't test a moral hypothesis in a lab or by experimentation (at least not easily). Therefore you need another belief system (a philosopher, a religion, logic, what you feel like) on which to base ethical decisions.</p>
<p>Subjective importance e.g. of children: most parents feel their children are more important than any other children and would sooner have (e.g.) 10 whole other families die than one of their own children. Any logic or argument that says otherwise is likely to be dismissed out of hand.</p>
<p>Casual opinion: what foods we like are based on what each person thinks tastes nice. Science should hold no opinion on whether chocolate ice cream tastes better than the strawberry flavoured variety.</p>
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<p>There is also the legitimate issue, which some people have commented on, of who pays for the research. If a tobacco company releases a study of how safe smoking really is, alarm bells should ring due to the potential for bias by the company funding the research.</p>
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<p>This is a catch 22 situation much of the time because those organisations who have access to the best experts and data on a subject are usually the same ones that have a financial interest in a specific conclusion.</p> I have zhaláad when I'm force…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-11-09:2182797:Comment:20971782012-11-09T04:17:52.520ZRuth Anthony-Gardnerhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/RuthAnthonyGardner
<p>I have zhaláad when I'm forced to give up the comforting/familiar feeling of safety and of being treated with respect when an iconic authority figure turns out to be racist or misogynist or an iconic cultural symbol turns out to have a nasty meaning or significance previously hidden. Learning that some of our founding fathers profited from piracy, that Richard Dawkins has misogynist tendencies. The biggest zhaláad recently is giving up the frame of perception associated with a stable planet.…</p>
<p>I have zhaláad when I'm forced to give up the comforting/familiar feeling of safety and of being treated with respect when an iconic authority figure turns out to be racist or misogynist or an iconic cultural symbol turns out to have a nasty meaning or significance previously hidden. Learning that some of our founding fathers profited from piracy, that Richard Dawkins has misogynist tendencies. The biggest zhaláad recently is giving up the frame of perception associated with a stable planet. Coming to grips with the gap between where we are and where we need to be, to avoid catastrophic Climate Destabilization, which Alex Steffen calls planet shock.</p> No question there was a histo…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-11-03:2182797:Comment:20928942012-11-03T21:19:57.468ZDr. Allan H. Clarkhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/DrAllanHClark
<p>No question there was a history of skepticism going back to Socrates himself, but it did not always apply to even scientific questions. James, in a note to the passage quoted above, provides examples:</p>
<blockquote><p class="gtxt_body" id="para.507.1.1.box.202.284.1053.865.q.60" style="font-family: inherit; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em;">Until the seventeenth century this mode of thought prevailed. One need only recall the dramatic treatment…</p>
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<p>No question there was a history of skepticism going back to Socrates himself, but it did not always apply to even scientific questions. James, in a note to the passage quoted above, provides examples:</p>
<blockquote><p class="gtxt_body" id="para.507.1.1.box.202.284.1053.865.q.60" style="font-family: inherit; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em;">Until the seventeenth century this mode of thought prevailed. One need only recall the dramatic treatment even of mechanical questions by Aristotle, as, for example, his explanation of the power of the lever to make a small weight raise a larger one. This is due, according to Aristotle, to the generally miraculous character of the circle and of all circular movement. The circle is both convex and concave; it is made by a fixed point and a moving line, which contradict each other; and whatever moves in a circle moves in opposite directions. Nevertheless, movement in a circle is the most "natural" movement; and the long arm of the lever, moving, as it does, in the larger circle, has the greater amount of this natural motion, and consequently requires the lesser force. Or recall the explanation by Herodotus of the position of the sun in winter: It moves to the south because of the cold which drives it into the warm parts of the heavens over Libya. Or listen to Saint Augustine's speculations: "Who gave to chaff such power to freeze that it preserves snow buried under it, and such power to warm that it ripens green fruit? Who can explain the strange properties of fire itself, which blackens all that it burns, though itself bright, and which, though of the most beautiful colors, discolors almost all that it touches and feeds upon, and turns blazing fuel into grimy einders? . . . Then what wonderful properties do we find in charcoal, which is so brittle that a light tap breaks it, and a slight pressure pulverizes it, and yet is so strong that no moisture rots it, nor any time causes it to decay." City of God, book xxi, ch. iv.</p>
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<p class="gtxt_body" style="font-family: inherit; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em;">The modern view of questioning anything for which evidence has not been provided can be traced most prominently to Descartes, but it took a long time to percolate through all the sciences and philosophy.</p>
<p class="gtxt_body" style="font-family: inherit; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em;">Through most of that time religious questions were completely out of bounds. Newton discovered that the <em>comma Johanneum</em> was a corruption of scripture, but he dared not publish his ideas since doubt of the Holy Trinity was a legal offense. The last person executed for denyting the Trinity was young Thomas Aikenhead in Edinburgh in 1697.</p>
<p class="gtxt_body" style="font-family: inherit; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em;">The answer of the church to scepticism is that we have the word of God in scripture and such authority cannot be doubted.</p>
<p class="gtxt_body" style="font-family: inherit; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"></p> it is unethical to assert any…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-11-03:2182797:Comment:20929712012-11-03T20:40:43.304ZLuarahttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/Luara
<p><em>it is unethical to assert anything for which you lack evidence and it is an ethical requirement to look for evidence.</em></p>
<p>I like that attitude, it's exactly the opposite of people's proclamations that "I believe ..." said with a sense of virtue. </p>
<p>But I wonder why William James or you think that's a modern attitude, and what is meant by that? There's a history of skepticism going back to the ancient Greeks. And if you are talking about the attitude of the majority of…</p>
<p><em>it is unethical to assert anything for which you lack evidence and it is an ethical requirement to look for evidence.</em></p>
<p>I like that attitude, it's exactly the opposite of people's proclamations that "I believe ..." said with a sense of virtue. </p>
<p>But I wonder why William James or you think that's a modern attitude, and what is meant by that? There's a history of skepticism going back to the ancient Greeks. And if you are talking about the attitude of the majority of people - what William James describes is exactly what I'm talking about, in the present. </p>
<p>I suppose some changes like literacy, mobility and wide availability of information would tend to make people question more. But children have always asked questions. </p>
<p>And I've wondered if the technological society tends to loosen people's minds about the possibility of magic, and weaken their faith in reason. If a cellphone can exist, why not angels? And people don't understand how to fix a cellphone. If it breaks, you just throw it away. Things like carpentry or fixing a bicycle do require thought. But hardly anyone does such things for themselves any more. We're surrounded by magical objects, we just have to know how to manipulate them. </p> There is one lesson from scie…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-11-02:2182797:Comment:20922472012-11-02T16:14:46.185ZDr. Allan H. Clarkhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/DrAllanHClark
<p>There is one lesson from scientific investigation that applies much more generally and saves us from error—that is the necessity for evidence to support assertions.</p>
<p>The mathematician William Kingdon Clifford made the need for evidence a moral issue: it is unethical to assert anything for which you lack evidence and it is an ethical requirement to look for evidence. Clifford's essay, <em>The Ethics of Belief,</em> is online in many places such…</p>
<p>There is one lesson from scientific investigation that applies much more generally and saves us from error—that is the necessity for evidence to support assertions.</p>
<p>The mathematician William Kingdon Clifford made the need for evidence a moral issue: it is unethical to assert anything for which you lack evidence and it is an ethical requirement to look for evidence. Clifford's essay, <em>The Ethics of Belief,</em> is online in many places such as:</p>
<p><cite>people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/<b>Clifford</b>_<b>ethics</b>.<b>pdf</b></cite></p>
<p></p>
<p>This, however, is a modern attitude as the philosopher and psychologist William James noted:</p>
<blockquote><p>Up to a comparatively recent date such distinctions as those between what has been verified and what is only conjectured, between the impersonal and the personal aspects of existence, were hardly suspected or conceived. Whatever you imagined in a lively manner, whatever you thought fit to be true, you affirmed confidently; and whatever you affirmed, your comrades believed. Truth was what had not yet been contradicted, most things were taken into the mind from the point of view of their human suggestiveness, and the attention confined itself exclusively to the aesthetic and dramatic aspects of events.</p>
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<p>In the past the statements of authorities were considered sufficient evidence. If it could be found in Aristotle, Plato, or the fathers of the church, it was considered true. Only in law and mathematics was demonstrable proof uniformly required. We are more skeptical today and rightly so. Mere authority is not sufficient in cases where we need to make a personal decision.</p>
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<p></p> Science: n. Circa 1300, "kn…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-11-02:2182797:Comment:20920302012-11-02T08:03:31.300ZArt Eatonhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/ArtEaton
<p>Science: <em>n. C</em>irca 1300, "knowledge (of something) acquired by study".</p>
<p><br></br>Upshot: You can know something (understand it) by conscientious study, or by instinctual analysis. Knowing what someone else thinks is not necessarily the same thing. If you have thought about something you think you know, it qualifies as science, even if you did not use the Scientific Method. The scientific method is a different thing than science. Knowledge envisioned by episteme, then chopped…</p>
<p>Science: <em>n. C</em>irca 1300, "knowledge (of something) acquired by study".</p>
<p><br/>Upshot: You can know something (understand it) by conscientious study, or by instinctual analysis. Knowing what someone else thinks is not necessarily the same thing. If you have thought about something you think you know, it qualifies as science, even if you did not use the Scientific Method. The scientific method is a different thing than science. Knowledge envisioned by episteme, then chopped apart and studied in a methodical manner, then either used to make predictions or used in a practical application is "Science" and it can be "Known". Otherwise what you might refer to as "Knowledge" is at best Theory (if based on known things) or <em>Fantasy</em> if it is a work of pure imagination or presumes anything that is based on disprovable assumptions.</p>
<p>We have decided that "Science" is a thing. We use the word in stupid ways, just like other idiots use the word "Faith". Neither are things or states of being. Faith means "intent"...not a mystical property. Knowledge === Science. Knowledge === information that can be applied with predictable results. </p>
<p>Distinctions:</p>
<p>If I KNOW about Jesus, I can predict that proof will exist that there is a Jesus culture around me. That does not imply anything else. I also KNOW that the bible is real. I can provide evidence by taking you to a cheap hotel room...and showing you one. That is knowledge. Jesus being a real person is a Theory. We have evidence that shows that people exist, and Jesus is supposed to be a person. The statements/contents of the Book of Genesis/Lay of Gilgamesh/Legends of Sargon the Great and all associated derivative works are of the third classification: FANTASY. It violates information that can be tested and used to make other predictions (Knowledge).</p>
<p><br/>Those distinctions make the topic of this thread self-contradictory.</p>
<p>It's kind of like a recent chat here in which someone stated that it might be possible to stop conscious thought while still awake (Zen stuff). Aside from the BIG problem that the idea violates knowledge (biomechanics) obtained by the scientific method, the statement is stupid. If you cease conscious thought, you are <strong><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">unconscious.</span></em></strong> <em> </em>That means you are not awake! Ja???</p> This is something I've notice…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-11-01:2182797:Comment:20913882012-11-01T16:15:03.088ZReevehttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/Reeve
<p>This is something I've noticed too and it's highly irritating: Lots of people seem to think about things as if they are school subjects, as though there are different rules of the game for each field eg. "Science is only can tell us about 'sciencey stuff' but it can't tell us anything profound." These people do seem to think any and all opinions are equal and valid; not realising that some opinions, beliefs etc. are just flat out wrong! The hypocrisy is astounding because modern society is…</p>
<p>This is something I've noticed too and it's highly irritating: Lots of people seem to think about things as if they are school subjects, as though there are different rules of the game for each field eg. "Science is only can tell us about 'sciencey stuff' but it can't tell us anything profound." These people do seem to think any and all opinions are equal and valid; not realising that some opinions, beliefs etc. are just flat out wrong! The hypocrisy is astounding because modern society is built on science, most of these people owe their ability to function and live entirely on science: Everything from television, modern transport, electronic communication to medicine. All of those things only exist thanks to the hard work of those subjects that these people no doubt think of as dry and boring.</p> Zhaláad
paradigm shift.
Don't…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-10-31:2182797:Comment:20908822012-10-31T20:59:50.622ZArt Eatonhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/ArtEaton
<p>Zhaláad</p>
<p>paradigm shift.</p>
<p>Don't force them, just let them happen.</p>
<p>Zhaláad</p>
<p>paradigm shift.</p>
<p>Don't force them, just let them happen.</p>