tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post114464445578914368..comments2017-09-18T01:48:00.804-07:00Comments on project mayhem: feminist critique of mormon theologythe narratorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-70713298553773451042007-04-21T21:39:00.000-07:002007-04-21T21:39:00.000-07:00A lot of words to justify your patriarchal religio...A lot of words to justify your patriarchal religion.<BR/>George Werner<BR/><BR/>ps:<BR/>Mary Daly is closer to the mark than you are my friend..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1145025294676451332006-04-14T07:34:00.000-07:002006-04-14T07:34:00.000-07:00Call me Shadow.A few typos greatly altered the nat...Call me Shadow.<BR/><BR/>A few typos greatly altered the nature of my meaning.<BR/><BR/>First, I meant 'none would doubt that the intercession of Nukes has changed the world'....<BR/><BR/>Meaning that whether you agree with Truman or not, it has had a massive effect on global politics.<BR/><BR/>Let me clarify and simply, since I have a tendancy to wander.<BR/><BR/>Do I agree that there is, beyond doubt, a Divine Mother?<BR/><BR/>Yes.<BR/><BR/>Do I think that quite proably the primary reason for not mentioning Her is a strategic decision to keep the church in as positive a light as possible for as long as possible?<BR/><BR/>Yes.<BR/><BR/>Do I think that God has a reason for not ordering the GA to do elsewise?<BR/><BR/>Yes.<BR/><BR/>The Triad in question is very obscure doctrine. No offense, but if you don't know what I meant by it, it is better not discussed in a public forum.<BR/><BR/>I will simply clarify my position that you are right, but that doesn't mean that the Lord's gospel is any less true, despite the fact that the Prophet and Quorum make mistakes, and sometimes refuse to admit that they have made mistakes. They are the Lord's servants, and I am not allowed to speak evil of them...of course, acknowledging waht is probably a mistake is an action and does not necessarily reflect on them directly.<BR/><BR/>Which is the concrete way of saying that if a prophet like Nephi III can screw up and forget to include Samuel the Lamanite in the records, then our own leaders can screw up by omission.<BR/><BR/>There will be an accounting. The doctrine will be revealed. Like the atomic bomb, it will have effects both good and ill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144973178213592302006-04-13T17:06:00.000-07:002006-04-13T17:06:00.000-07:00anon.,please leave some type of name so i feel lik...anon.,<BR/><BR/>please leave some type of name so i feel like i'm responding to a person.<BR/><BR/><I>Was the world a better place when nuclear weapons entered the picture?</I><BR/><BR/>no.<BR/><BR/><I>None would argue that it has changed the world.</I><BR/><BR/>preposterous. many, including eisenhower, have argued that the introduction of nuclear weapons have changed the world for the worse. (not quite sure what this has to do with anything???)<BR/><BR/><I>Was it necessary to use an atomic device at the end of WWII?</I><BR/><BR/>no. many have well argued that japan was on the verge of surrendering and that the u.s. used it's atomic weapons in an effort to portray american military might.<BR/><BR/><I>Harry Truman thought so. He believed it was necessary to save a million American lives that would be lost upon an invasion of the Japanese mainland.</I><BR/><BR/>again, many have argued (and I believe eisenhower even said) that it was not necessary and that Truman was doing what I just mentioned.<BR/><BR/><I>Would Harry Truman have still ordered the bomb dropped if he knew that a state like Iran (much less Communist Russia) would eventually get ahold of it?</I><BR/><BR/>that was inevitable. read eisenhower's prophetic address on the industrial military complex.<BR/><BR/><I>There are those who say that knowledge of the Sacred Feminine will be trounced and defiled by the most vicious generation since Sodom and Gommorah.</I><BR/><BR/>there are some who say the earth is flat, the moon landing never occured, saddam hussein had weapons of mass destruction, and that sodom and gommorah were destroyed because of homosexuality. go on...<BR/><BR/><I>There are those that say that billions of women, particurly LDS women, who live under the oppression of countless generations of carefully diabolic false doctrine that equates women with evil.</I><BR/><BR/>i have said that. go on...<BR/><BR/><I>Ultimately, remember this: God allows genocide, wars, terrorist, traitors, murderers, liars, theifs, demon-cults, secret combinations and the like to thrive upon the Earth because our purpose here is to Walk By Faith.</I><BR/><BR/>this is a very simplistic and highly problematic claim. dig around my blog. i've written much on this elsewhere.<BR/><BR/><I>There is little down in my mind that They (He and She) weep for these things.</I><BR/><BR/>are you saying god does not weep over these things? read enoch's account. god suffers and weeps over our failings with eachother.<BR/><BR/><I>The question as to whether it would ultimately do more good to let the genie out of the bottle now is one I am glad I do not have to make.</I><BR/><BR/>it'll do more good. you have provided no argumentation as to what harm it would cause.<BR/><BR/><I>It will happen.</I><BR/><BR/>i'm confused. what will happen?<BR/><BR/><I>There will be reprecussions that will shake the foundation of the world when it happens.</I><BR/><BR/>it?<BR/><BR/><I>Perchance it is in the third branch of the scriptural Triad.</I><BR/><BR/>now i'm really lost.<BR/><BR/><I>What I do know is that the attitude of many (most) males in the church is wrong. It is usually not malicious, but it is in the subtly of their dire darkness that makes it so evil. These are men who would die for the Church and the Gospel (many of them) yet treat their wives as chattel in oh so many subtle ways.</I><BR/><BR/>amen.<BR/><BR/><I>There will be an Accounting. Does that excuse the current circumstance?</I><BR/><BR/>no it doesn't.<BR/><BR/><I>Perhaps not, but then again, sometimes the pragmatic good now can and will do much harm later. I do not enjoy the locking of the secrets. But I also understand at least some of the reasons behind them.</I><BR/><BR/>i see no good in keeping the divine mother in the closet.<BR/><BR/>i'm really confused. did you agree or disagree with my thesis?the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144961137659841762006-04-13T13:45:00.000-07:002006-04-13T13:45:00.000-07:00Was the world a better place when nuclear weapons ...Was the world a better place when nuclear weapons entered the picture?<BR/><BR/>Some would say yes, though granted they are very few in number.<BR/><BR/>None would argue that it has changed the world.<BR/><BR/>Some secrets, once let out of the bottle, will eventually fall into hands that will corrupt and misuse them.<BR/><BR/>Was it necessary to use an atomic device at the end of WWII?<BR/><BR/>Harry Truman thought so. He believed it was necessary to save a million American lives that would be lost upon an invasion of the Japanese mainland.<BR/><BR/>Would Harry Truman have still ordered the bomb dropped if he knew that a state like Iran (much less Communist Russia) would eventually get ahold of it?<BR/><BR/>I believe he would. Sometimes, the politics of the now outweigh the immediate need of the present.<BR/><BR/>Leaving all reasons the the Lord has aside, those who actually bother to talk about this point of doctrine (as compared to people naive enough to believe the 'mainstream' view that Jesus was not married, did not have children children or that if there is a Heavenly Mother, She is at best a 'side' of the whole of creation), there are basically two camps.<BR/><BR/>There are those who say that knowledge of the Sacred Feminine will be trounced and defiled by the most vicious generation since Sodom and Gommorah.<BR/><BR/>There are those that say that billions of women, particurly LDS women, who live under the oppression of countless generations of carefully diabolic false doctrine that equates women with evil.<BR/><BR/>Ultimately, remember this: God allows genocide, wars, terrorist, traitors, murderers, liars, theifs, demon-cults, secret combinations and the like to thrive upon the Earth because our purpose here is to Walk By Faith.<BR/><BR/>There is little down in my mind that They (He and She) weep for these things.<BR/><BR/>The question as to whether it would ultimately do more good to let the genie out of the bottle now is one I am glad I do not have to make. <BR/><BR/>It will happen. There will be reprecussions that will shake the foundation of the world when it happens. Perchance it is in the third branch of the scriptural Triad. I do not know.<BR/><BR/>What I do know is that the attitude of many (most) males in the church is wrong. It is usually not malicious, but it is in the subtly of their dire darkness that makes it so evil. These are men who would die for the Church and the Gospel (many of them) yet treat their wives as chattel in oh so many subtle ways.<BR/><BR/>There will be an Accounting. Does that excuse the current circumstance? <BR/><BR/>Perhaps not, but then again, sometimes the pragmatic good now can and will do much harm later. I do not enjoy the locking of the secrets. But I also understand at least some of the reasons behind them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144959388133730832006-04-13T13:16:00.000-07:002006-04-13T13:16:00.000-07:00anon.,one more thing. yes. let's look at mary. one...anon.,<BR/><BR/>one more thing. yes. let's look at mary. one could argue that maryology was a result of a lack of feminine deity in traditional Christian theology. also, if you seriously look at Lehi's vision, you could see that the tree most likely represents Mary and not Jesus.the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144959066172374032006-04-13T13:11:00.000-07:002006-04-13T13:11:00.000-07:00anon.,1)I think the main reason why our Heavenly M...anon.,<BR/><BR/>1)I think the main reason why our Heavenly Mother is not discussed is because it seems to weird and the Church is trying to hard to cater to traditional Christianity for various reasons (anti-Gay agenda, missionary work, etc).<BR/>Another big reason is because an open theology discussing the feminine divine would be too problematic for the sexist policies and practices of the Church today.<BR/><BR/>2) God is NOT infinite in any traditional sense of Christiaon theology. It's merely an empty word Mormons hold on to. The Mormon denial of <I>creatio ex nihilo</I> and affirmation of free-will makes it impossible<BR/><BR/>3) There is no Church Doctrine. There are only opinions that more than others affirm. "Doctrine" is merely a word we use to say that our opinions are better than others'. Joseph Smith's extreme dislike of creeds would aptly apply to the Church's (institutional and cultural) use of "Doctrine".the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144945525198300922006-04-13T09:25:00.000-07:002006-04-13T09:25:00.000-07:00Three comments.1)Good Paper. The counter argument...Three comments.<BR/><BR/>1)Good Paper. The counter arguments made in the comments expose the obvious reason why we don't know much about H.M. at this point.<BR/><BR/>If Sunstone articles are written when President Hinkley makes a comment on "We should obey traffic lights" and they try to find the deep doctrinal meanings behind red and green lights, do you really think abominations would not occur with the Sacred Feminine?<BR/><BR/>Look at what has been done to Mary. Do you think Mary wants people worshiping her or her son?<BR/><BR/>There will come a time when this doctrine is revealed and discussed openly. Indeed, there will come a reckoning to any who have abused the female in any way. Believe it.<BR/><BR/>But the time is not now. <BR/><BR/>2)We pray to God the Father. God *IS* infinite, but only in his knowledge, power and majesty. His phyiscal location is finite.<BR/><BR/>The Father has a role, and a time and a place. Others have their role and time and place in the Great Plan. Principle number one of the gospel is you pray to the Father in the name of the Son.<BR/><BR/>There are no intercessions. If you pray to Christ, you are not praying to God, because the one God you should have is the Father, to whom the Son gives all glory and honor. They are One, as in One in purpose.<BR/><BR/>3)The culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is rotten to the core. The doctrine and the culture are two separate things. Whenver the church does something based on doctrine it is resiliant, beautiful and clear. Whenver it does something based on tradition, it is ugly, muddy and boring.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144912452414716512006-04-13T00:14:00.000-07:002006-04-13T00:14:00.000-07:00I don't know why this popped into my head just now...I don't know why this popped into my head just now. Maybe the whole equality/balance thing between Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. But I had a (male) institute teacher who was talking about how marriage is a contract between husband, wife, and God, and he said, "So it doesn't bother me that my wife has another Man in her life... or that she loves Him more than she does me... because <I>I've</I> got another Man too!"<BR/><BR/>I guess if talk of Heavenly Mother was more prevalent, my teacher wouldn't have had to sound so weird!The Silent Observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144795761439890452006-04-11T15:49:00.000-07:002006-04-11T15:49:00.000-07:00s.o.,another thing. there are some pretty cool rab...s.o.,<BR/><BR/>another thing. there are some pretty cool rabbinical traditions about adam and eve being created as a single person and later divided in half. from what i recall, the hebrew translated 'man/adam' is different before and after the split.the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144795626352947062006-04-11T15:47:00.000-07:002006-04-11T15:47:00.000-07:00s.o.,thanks. i think a good argument could be made...s.o.,<BR/><BR/>thanks. i think a good argument could be made that the god we pray to is the united divine parents. i know janice allred an other mormon feminists have advocated that. if such is the case, i do think that "the father" should somehow be changed as it may just remnant of an over-patriarchal society. daly's criticisms would argue that.the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144795475718751812006-04-11T15:44:00.000-07:002006-04-11T15:44:00.000-07:00ryan. we pray to god the father all the time. the ...ryan. we pray to god the father all the time. the idea that our prayers are somehow all mediated by jesus and are never directly taken to god is rather unscriptural, most likely beyong your own experience, and largely just the opinions of some church leaders.<BR/><BR/>last time i prayed, i prayed to god the father. last time i heard the sacrament, it began with 'oh god the eternal father'. when jesus taught us how to pray in the bible and book of mormon, he taught us to pray to our father in heaven. even bruce mckonkie (who i rarely agree with) said that we need to pray to god the father and it is our father that we need a relationship with.the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144794378079333942006-04-11T15:26:00.000-07:002006-04-11T15:26:00.000-07:00Good paper. You write well.I can understand both ...Good paper. You write well.<BR/><BR/>I can understand both sides of the situation. On the one hand, you cannot blaspheme what you don't know. And perhaps it is by divine design that the Father interacts exclusively with mortal children.<BR/><BR/>But I could understand the benefits of mortal daughters of God patterning their lives after a Heavenly Mother. I'd never thought of that verse in "O My Father" as a prayer to Her, but it certainly is. <BR/><BR/>In fact, our prayers that are addressed to Heavenly Father may implicitly include Heavenly Mother based upon scriptures about Adam and Eve together that say "God called <I>their</I> name Adam" (Gen. 5:2, Moses 6:9).<BR/><BR/>I would be interested in reading more about Eliza R. Snow's feelings on the topic.The Silent Observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144793458671272912006-04-11T15:10:00.000-07:002006-04-11T15:10:00.000-07:00Well, if you really wanted to get down to the poin...Well, if you really wanted to get down to the point. And be completely direct about it all. Why don't we pray to our Heavenly Father??? Why don't any of our sacraments/convenants/anything go directly to him ... ??? It's all done in the name of Jesus Christ. Everything goes through Christ. He is our mediator. We aren't allowed direct communication with God. Write a paper about that, I'd be interested in hearing your view point on that subject.<BR/><BR/>ryan oAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144726859545300882006-04-10T20:40:00.000-07:002006-04-10T20:40:00.000-07:00are you planning to have children ryan? i'm sure y...are you planning to have children ryan? i'm sure you don't want your kids demeaning their mother. understandable. are you then willing to complete cut her off from their lives, prevent them from speaking to her, expressing their love for her, or knowing anything about her? what example does it set if god the father keeps his wife muffled behind a curtain?<BR/><BR/>last year, jill derr (then director of the joseph fielding smith institute, and now in salt lake in the lds church history) gave a wonderful talk on eliza r. snow, and how she found joy and more purpose in life through the relationship she was able to have with god the mother... a relationship that is actively supressed by the church today.the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144720628171591262006-04-10T18:57:00.000-07:002006-04-10T18:57:00.000-07:00a thought:If I were walking down the street, hand ...a thought:<BR/><BR/>If I were walking down the street, hand in hand with my wife, and anyone came up to me, spit on me, slapped me, called me every vile and profane thing you could think of, I would like to think that I have the dignity to smile and keep on walking. Now, if someone were to come up and do any of those things to my wife ... I would like to think that I would honor her enough to defend her.<BR/><BR/>When you take a step back, look at society and how casual and dis-respectfully we use the name of God. And how irreverantly we treat him, etc. Is it really any wonder that he protects his wife from the same mis-use? That he would keep her sacred and holy and not allow her to be treated as he has? In all honesty, I've never questioned why we don't talk about our Heavenly Mother more. I've always taken it as a sign that God must really love her, to protect her the way he has. To uphold her name and dignity to the level that he has ... I can only hope that I have the same level of compassion and respect for my wife.<BR/><BR/>If you want to attack me, okay. Say what you want, do whatever ... but don't you dare attack my wife, don't you dare defame her in any way.<BR/><BR/>ryan o.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144688702509265022006-04-10T10:05:00.000-07:002006-04-10T10:05:00.000-07:00russ, i should have included more about the church...russ, i should have included more about the church's active role in suppressing discussion of god the mother and disciplining those that do. i was talking with janice allred a couple weeks ago about her experience. if there were ever a nicer person, i haven't met them. janice was excommunicated for her writings about god the mother. google her name, and i'm sure you can read all about it.<BR/><BR/>while i don't think that mormonism can take the route of the shakers or some radical revisions of jesus as a woman, i think there are other options that could do much good. such as opening discussion and prayer to both divine parents, giving women the priesthood, placing more emphasis on jesus's anti-sexist approach to women, etc.the narratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10774503436545764912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6063106.post-1144652913928186852006-04-10T00:08:00.000-07:002006-04-10T00:08:00.000-07:00Overall, I think the paper is very well organized....Overall, I think the paper is very well organized. My only critique is that you more clearly demonstrate the "current practice of silencing" Mother in Heaven. I understand what you mean, and think the point is valid, but an oblique reference to President Hinckley's 1991 general conference talk is probably not enough to hang accusations of active suppression of doctrine or discussion relating to this topic. The statement preceding the Hinckley reference ("God the Mother is seldom if ever discussed in public religious discourse") reads more like an apology for not being able to provide more convincing evidence. Again, I think you have a good point here, but it seems inadequately supported, especially to a group unfamiliar with LDS culture.<BR/><BR/>That being said, I think this was a good paper on an interesting topic. You ahould look into the femininization of Jesus in Trinitarian religions. Or into the theology of the Shakers.Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17351773829698607775noreply@blogger.com