Good work, Team ThinkPad. Doubling down on your guns.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:35:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (earksiinni)CommentsThat is why I don't bother with tabletshttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530441
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530441Tablet = Laptop with detachable screen.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:40:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (moondevil)CommentsRE: Hahahttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530450
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530450Keyboards for tablets should be built-in, otherwise, get a netbook. But a pointer device built in is at least a step in the right direction.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 14:38:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (libray)CommentsRE: Hahahttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530452
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530452

... Now featuring trackpoint AND stylus.

It would hardly be a Thinkpad without the former, would it? I get the impression the red nipple is as much for brand recognition as actual functionality now.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:08:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (M.Onty)CommentsRE[2]: Hahahttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530454
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530454

I get the impression the red nipple is as much for brand recognition as actual functionality now.

The tablet's not on my radar, but I wouldn't even consider a laptop that didn't come with a Trackpoint clitoris.

Heck, I'd actually be willing to pay extra for a Thinkpad or Tecra that was Trackpoint-only, sans those putrid multitouch-touchpad things.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:22:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (gan17)CommentsComment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530458
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530458As usual, Lenovo will try to deny refunds for those who will want to return Windows which is preinstalled there?Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:39:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (shmerl)CommentsRE[3]: Hahahttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530459
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530459Agreed. I've got the Thinkpad x200 because it only came with the nipple, not a trackpad. I dislike duplication of function. Nothing against trackpads, they're better for general moseying around, graphical work &c, but if you code or write then the nipple is much more suitable.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:40:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (M.Onty)CommentsRE[3]: Hahahttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530461
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530461Totally agree with you. Those who never used a trackpoint (at least for more than 1 day), do not understand how good they are.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:49:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (kwanbis)CommentsRE: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530465
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530465Lenovo is one of the companies who practically explicitly state they they deny refunds for bundled software. Up until recently, their rules used to say:

Lenovo does not provide refunds or credits for portions of a packaged offering provided at a single price or for preloaded programs installed by Lenovo.

Then, they were hit with a court ruling which exposed such product tying as illegal. They changed the wording a bit (not the essence though):

If you acquired a software product separate from a hardware product, and paid a license fee, you may return the software product in its original, sealed package within 21 days of the date of invoice and obtain a refund or credit.

I.e. they still pretend you can't get a refund, if you bought the software together with the hardware.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 16:27:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (shmerl)CommentsRE: That is why I don't bother with tabletshttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530468
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530468I was using tablets w/ keyboard way before it was popular with the Nokia 770 and then the N800 along with my folding Stowaway Bluetooth keyboard. It seems like a minor detail, but being a humanities graduate student with lots and lots of physical paper (or vellum, ha) all around me at all times, it is very useful to be able to have the keyboard detached and move it around.

Nor do I think that what tablet + keyboard combos offer can only appeal to niches like myself. The main difference between tablets and laptops isn't in the features, it's in how they use the space in front of you.

The immediate area where your hands land on a desk right in front of you is prime real estate for working while sitting, and laptops occupy that space entirely with the keyboard/trackpad/chassis, which is inflexibly attached to the screen. That's fine and all if all your work is on the computer, but what if you're working with mixed media? What if you need to also refer to a book, printed journal articles, or physical photographs? Then the laptop becomes a big pain; even desktops become preferable at that point. Tablets go a long way to solve that problem.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 17:12:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (earksiinni)CommentsRE[3]: Hahahttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530470
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530470Don't get me wrong. I love trackpoints and I'm no fan of touch (I still have a dumbphone and I have no intention of switching from my trusty keyboard-controlled tiling window manager anytime soon), but I do appreciate me some fine irony. The comment about the trackpoint being for marketing purposes is dead on--what kind of ThinkPad wouldn't have a trackpoint? Or for that matter a stylus--isn't that so typically IBM-esque?

Accordingly, what kind of ThinkPad really fits in with Microsoft's vision of Windows 8? None that I know of. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 17:18:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (earksiinni)CommentsRE[2]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530474
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530474Next you'll want a refund for the OS that runs on your microwave oven.

Its one thing to want the freedom to install another OS, its another thing to demand a refund for an OS which was sold to Lenovo at a volume discounted rate.

This steers into the realm of ridiculousness.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 18:03:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Nelson)CommentsRE[4]: Hahahttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530480
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530480I fell in love with the trackpoint-style pointer on my very first laptop, a Texas Instruments 4000M that was a high school graduation present from my estranged father way back in 1995. I've never gotten used to the touchpad that has been on nearly every laptop I've had since then. Either it's way too big and interferes with typing despite supposed palm-sensing tech, or it's way too small to be of any use as a pointer.

I've resorted to just leaving the touchpad turned off with this laptop and either using an external mouse or (in Linux) using keyboard commands to get around. Trying to type with it turned on is an exercise in frustration that makes me want to toss it against the wall.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:00:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Morgan)CommentsComment by Drumhellarhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530481
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530481

If you see a 1366x768 resolution on a 10.1" display, they blew it.

My laptop has a 15" display at that resolution. While I'd like it higher (Almost had it higher but didn't want to wait 3 weeks to get a higher-res version in the mail), it is perfectly usable, and doesn't look bad at all.

While a higher DPI screen can look significantly better when presented side-by-side with more standard screen resolutions, the difference is less noticeable, and less important, when the lower DPI screen is viewed on it's own.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:00:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Drumhellar)CommentsRE: That is why I don't bother with tabletshttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530482
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530482I think this is where the Asus Transformer gets it right: Fully functional tablet for when you don't need to type, with a very nice keyboard dock for when you do. When it's docked, you have nearly 20 hours of battery life and it's so seamless it actually feels like a laptop computer. My best friend has one and I have to say it's the closest I've come to wanting a 10-inch tablet, only because of the amazing dock. If it weren't for the price I'd use one instead of this laptop without a moment's hesitation.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:05:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Morgan)CommentsRE[3]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530484
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530484

Next you'll want a refund for the OS that runs on your microwave oven.

You know very well it's not the same thing at all. Comparing hard-coded firmware to user-uninstallable software is misleading and beneath you.

The rest of your statement has no legs to stand on. Microsoft's own EULA states that you can and should seek a refund if you don't agree with the terms of the EULA. If the hardware manufacturer won't comply, they still have to honor their own warranty and refund for a defective purchase. The only way they can avoid that would be to post the entire Microsoft OS EULA on their website or at the physical point of sale, and require you to agree to it before completing the purchase.

If your take on it was the way the world worked, then every store in existence would just mark down all their products by a penny and say "we sold it to you at a discounted rate, therefore you are not eligible for a refund or exchange". The public wouldn't stand for that, and neither should computer purchasers.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:17:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Morgan)CommentsRE[3]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530485
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530485Tablet computer is not an appliance. It's a mulitpurpose universal computer device. Therefore your example is irrelevant.

While the notion of many vendors to turn computers into appliances is known (that logic helps them to lock them up), users should resist such kind of logic as much as possible, especially when it comes to real multipurpose devices.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:19:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (shmerl)CommentsRE: Comment by Drumhellarhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530486
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530486I do feel limited by the 1366x768 resolution on this 15 inch screen; I'd much prefer something like 1680x1050. But, on a 10 inch tablet I think 1366x768 would be acceptable. Once your screen gets that small, the benefit of higher resolution begins to taper off and there comes a point where you have to zoom everything just to make it readable.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:24:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Morgan)CommentsRE[4]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530487
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530487

You know very well it's not the same thing at all. Comparing hard-coded firmware to user-uninstallable software is misleading and beneath you.

Tablets are absolutely an appliance. The experience is completed by the combination of hardware and software. They are decidedly not general purpose devices, and are not sold or advertised as such.

The rest of your statement has no legs to stand on. Microsoft's own EULA states that you can and should seek a refund if you don't agree with the terms of the EULA. If the hardware manufacturer won't comply, they still have to honor their own warranty and refund for a defective purchase. The only way they can avoid that would be to post the entire Microsoft OS EULA on their website or at the physical point of sale, and require you to agree to it before completing the purchase.

If your take on it was the way the world worked, then every store in existence would just mark down all their products by a penny and say "we sold it to you at a discounted rate, therefore you are not eligible for a refund or exchange". The public wouldn't stand for that, and neither should computer purchasers.

Maybe you wish for it to not have legs to stand on. True, after some legalese you may end up wringing a refund out of an OEM, but in the process you'll have spend potentially hundreds filing in a small claims court, weeks of your time, and receive something like a $100 dollar check. That's if they don't demand you return the entire device outright.

So just because you legally can do something, doesn't mean it is reasonable or right to demand one. I believe the same argument is made for software patents, they're perfectly legal in the US too, but according to many, the exercise of that legal right is reprehensible.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:56:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Nelson)CommentsRE[4]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530488
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530488A tablet is not a general purpose device. Do you think you'd have luck asking Apple for a refund on an iPad for the cost of iOS?Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:57:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Nelson)CommentsRE[5]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530489
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530489

So just because you legally can do something, doesn't mean it is reasonable or right to demand one. I believe the same argument is made for software patents, they're perfectly legal in the US too, but according to many, the exercise of that legal right is reprehensible.

You're opening a can of worms with that one. The laws exist to serve the people, not the other way around. The moment the laws become oppressive is the moment they should be changed. That is what most of us here hope for with regard to software patents; right now they serve only to oppress the individual and take away their rights.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:08:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Morgan)CommentsRE[5]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530491
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530491Tablets are absolutely not an appliance. They are mobile computers.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:21:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (shmerl)CommentsRE[5]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530492
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530492

A tablet is not a general purpose device.

Only because some vendors want to prevent this. There is no logical reason for it not to be a general purpose device. Small form factor of the computer should not detract from the general purpose of its computing capabilities. Therefore people should be opposed to the restriction notion.

Apple are notorious in their notions of locking things up and thwarting interoperability, so bringing them as an example only strengthens the point above about bad practices of manufacturers.Edited 2012-08-09 20:29 UTCThu, 09 Aug 2012 20:24:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (shmerl)CommentsRE[6]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530493
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530493Like I said before, good luck asking Apple for a refund for the cost of iOSThu, 09 Aug 2012 20:24:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Nelson)CommentsRE[6]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530494
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530494

You're opening a can of worms with that one. The laws exist to serve the people, not the other way around. The moment the laws become oppressive is the moment they should be changed. That is what most of us here hope for with regard to software patents; right now they serve only to oppress the individual and take away their rights.

That's a rather..primitive view of how the law should function. It is also largely besides my point that a measuring stick for morality is not legality.

Just because you can, maybe, after extensive legal procedure, get a $100 check, doesn't mean it makes sense to do so, nor does it make my statement that tablets are appliances any less true.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:27:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Nelson)CommentsRE[6]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530495
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530495If people were opposed, then there would be a reflection in the sales. Obviously the market is in demand of a device that is an end to end experience. The coupling of hardware and software is just a means to that end.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:29:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Nelson)CommentsRE[7]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530496
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530496You're confusing "core" with "primitive". So are you suggesting that the law should oppress the people? I weep for your future generations...Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:32:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Morgan)CommentsRE[7]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530497
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530497

Just because you can, maybe, after extensive legal procedure, get a $100 check, doesn't mean it makes sense to do so

What makes sense, is to be able to buy the computer with OS of your choice or with no OS (so you could install something else there).

The fact that one has to go through complex refund process is caused by monopolistic practices (of MS in this case), precisely as you pointed out for the purpose of making it too hard that it shouldn't make sense to bother doing it. It only proves the point of crookedness of MS and OEMs who do this bundling.Edited 2012-08-09 20:33 UTCThu, 09 Aug 2012 20:32:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (shmerl)CommentsRE[8]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530498
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530498Yes, something which a statistically irrelevant number of users even seek is considered oppressive and abusive. You really need some perspective.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:35:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Nelson)CommentsRE[8]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530499
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530499Not what I am saying at all, and its disappointing because I'm certain you know how to read.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:36:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Nelson)CommentsRE[7]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530500
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530500Market is controlled by aware people (if there are a lot of them), i.e. if they boycott something for example for some reason. For most it's hard to be aware of the technicalities, that's why sales don't reflect anything about what's proper or what should be.Edited 2012-08-09 20:38 UTCThu, 09 Aug 2012 20:37:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (shmerl)CommentsRE[8]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530501
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530501That's a paragraph long way of rationalizing people just not caring. Its not important to them. They don't even know what Linux is.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:41:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Nelson)CommentsRE[9]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530502
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530502Again - it should cost nothing for OEMs to sell their computers without any OS. But it'll undermine MS interests (too easy to use alternatives in such case), that's why MS "convinces" them with offering discounts on condition of prohibiting a no OS option. It's totally irrelevant what number of users would want that. They want to prevent it altogether, and that's oppressive.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:45:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (shmerl)CommentsRE[10]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530503
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530503I think its rather naive to assume it'll cost nothing. You're just upset they don't sell you their product packaged up the way you want it. Oppressive is just the crutch you use.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:47:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Nelson)CommentsRE[11]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530505
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530505May be not nothing, but less than what they pay for Windows anyway. So the only one who is loosing from a no OS option is MS. OEMs do offer a no OS option for corporate buyers, since MS has less control over that.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:56:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (shmerl)CommentsRE[4]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530510
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530510

"Next you'll want a refund for the OS that runs on your microwave oven.

You know very well it's not the same thing at all. Comparing hard-coded firmware to user-uninstallable software is misleading and beneath you. " [/q]

Can I play Socrates for a moment?
If I flash my own firmware onto a microwave oven, why should I not then be able to legitimately demand a refund for the firmware that was bundled, according to the logic of the commenter that started this discussion?

Second Socratic query: This Lenovo device is being sold, not as a "general purpose computer that just happens to have a particular OS bundled with it", it's being sold as a "Windows 8 tablet computer". That is, Windows 8 is part of the device being sold, just as the track nipple is part of the device being sold. Is that way of looking at it wrong, and if so, why?Thu, 09 Aug 2012 21:25:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (MollyC)CommentsRE[2]: That is why I don't bother with tabletshttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530511
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530511Yep, I almost bought one.

But around the same time Asus had netbooks with Linux here in Germany, using the AMD Fusion E-450 with 4GB RAM/500GB disk costing around 300â¬ vs 500â¬ for the Asus Transformer. With a battery time of around 6hours, if you don't abuse the GPU or wireless.

I decided to save 200â¬ and be able to use a plain Linux distribution without Android's restrictions.Thu, 09 Aug 2012 21:29:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (moondevil)CommentsRE[9]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530530
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530530All I'm saying is, I'm used to better from you. You say that it's "wrong" to seek redress under the law, yet in this one instance the law actually works for the benefit of the people rather than the government or big corporations. Not only is it morally just for a customer to be able to get their money back for a defective software product, in this case it's also legally enforceable. I really don't see the problem here.Fri, 10 Aug 2012 00:52:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Morgan)CommentsRE[6]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530543
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530543

Tablets are absolutely not an appliance. They are mobile computers.

They are appliances that happen to make use of a computing system to work, exactly the same way a GPS system, a fridge or games console.Fri, 10 Aug 2012 07:03:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (moondevil)CommentsRE[10]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530544
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530544

Again - it should cost nothing for OEMs to sell their computers without any OS. But it'll undermine MS interests (too easy to use alternatives in such case), that's why MS "convinces" them with offering discounts on condition of prohibiting a no OS option. It's totally irrelevant what number of users would want that. They want to prevent it altogether, and that's oppressive.

Oppression is what people in countries with dictatorships regimes have to suffer everyday.

What Microsoft does is called business, no one from Microsoft is pointing guns to OEM workers forcing them to make decisions to use Windows on their products.

Any OEM company is free to licentiate another OS, or even make their own. If instead, they prefer to get in bed with Microsoft is because what they gain out of the deal brings them more money home.Fri, 10 Aug 2012 07:09:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (moondevil)CommentsRE[11]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530546
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530546

What Microsoft does is called business

Yes, unethical and oppressive business, or in other terms - abusive monopoly.Fri, 10 Aug 2012 07:40:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (shmerl)CommentsRE[5]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530554
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530554Lets look at the different angle. Microwave firmware has been created as part of creation of specific microwave series and suits no purpose other than operating specific microwave type. It is not a product being sold separately, and hence has no commercial value.
On the other hand, Windows 8 is a commercial product, not related in any way with specific tablet.

it's being sold as a "Windows 8 tablet computer"

In this case, "Windows 8 tablet computer" is just a short name for "General purpose tablet computer with Windows 8 preinstalled".Fri, 10 Aug 2012 10:07:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (pashar)CommentsRE[12]: Comment by shmerlhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530558
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530558If the OEM does not want to play along, it can go look elsewhere.Fri, 10 Aug 2012 11:28:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (moondevil)CommentsTablets are for getting away from your deskhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?530575
http://www.osnews.com/thread?530575The arguments on this site on whether Tablets are real computers or not are kinda stupid, sorry.

Does anyone here ever walk anywhere? Ever wait anywhere for more than 5 minutes? Ever take a train ride? Ever need a recipe in the kitchen?

Do any of you have a job that requires you to work away from your desk - Ever?

How can so many people on a computer site not see the value in having (nearly) a full computer that is always on, no setup/startup required, no peripherals required?

Even if you kept your iPad open to "nerds are us" all day or kept it crammed with O'Reilly books, how is this not useful? Is the apple logo so full of allergins?Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:44:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (ezraz)CommentsRE[4]: Hahahttp://www.osnews.com/thread?531357
http://www.osnews.com/thread?531357kwanbis ~from HA? Hm, consistency-wise (scientific method, rigorous testing methodology, and so on), I'd expect something better from you than "Those who never used a trackpoint (at least for more than 1 day), do not understand how good they are"