Fruitzilla wrote:
Mostly they don't mind so much as far as I remember.
But I know that as soon as I (for example) would start talking about rebirth being metaphorical instead of literal, or what have you, some people would immediately get on my case, and wouldn't stop hounding me until I cried uncle...
It's not a very pleasant situation to be in to be honest, so I can imagine someone with these viewpoints not getting into a habit of posting here frequently.

The reason why people would get on your case about it is that it is quite obvious that the Buddha never intended for rebirth to be taken as a metaphor. There is simply no justification for such as view. If you wish to understand rebirth metaphorically, that is one thing -- but asserting that rebirth must be understood as a metaphor is completely wrong.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

Namdrol wrote:
They wold fit badly if they expected people to simply roll over and not challenge any of their views.

I love it when "Buddhist" modernists feel they have an absolute right to challenge any Buddhist idea they like, but get so offended when their own modernist biases and irrationalities are called into question.

N

Mostly they don't mind so much as far as I remember.
But I know that as soon as I (for example) would start talking about rebirth being metaphorical instead of literal, or what have you, some people would immediately get on my case, and wouldn't stop hounding me until I cried uncle...
It's not a very pleasant situation to be in to be honest, so I can imagine someone with these viewpoints not getting into a habit of posting here frequently.

You better cry uncle right now, because rebirth is literal otherwise buddhadharma would'nt have no sense!

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Fruitzilla wrote:
Mostly they don't mind so much as far as I remember.
But I know that as soon as I (for example) would start talking about rebirth being metaphorical instead of literal, or what have you, some people would immediately get on my case, and wouldn't stop hounding me until I cried uncle...
It's not a very pleasant situation to be in to be honest, so I can imagine someone with these viewpoints not getting into a habit of posting here frequently.

The reason why people would get on your case about it is that it is quite obvious that the Buddha never intended for rebirth to be taken as a metaphor. There is simply no justification for such as view. If you wish to understand rebirth metaphorically, that is one thing -- but asserting that rebirth must be understood as a metaphor is completely wrong.

Namdrol wrote:
They wold fit badly if they expected people to simply roll over and not challenge any of their views.

I love it when "Buddhist" modernists feel they have an absolute right to challenge any Buddhist idea they like, but get so offended when their own modernist biases and irrationalities are called into question.

N

Mostly they don't mind so much as far as I remember.
But I know that as soon as I (for example) would start talking about rebirth being metaphorical instead of literal, or what have you, some people would immediately get on my case, and wouldn't stop hounding me until I cried uncle...
It's not a very pleasant situation to be in to be honest, so I can imagine someone with these viewpoints not getting into a habit of posting here frequently.

You better cry uncle right now, because rebirth is literal otherwise buddhadharma would'nt have no sense!

Mr. G wrote:Fruitzilla, are you saying you should be able to make statements on this forum that are not subject to discussion or debate?

Nope! That would be rather silly, no?
I'm saying that if my statements are constantly called into question, I might lose interest in making them.

If nothing else, continuing to make such statements allows others to offer their opinions-including those who have training, education, and experience.

When people talk about the "culture" of a Buddhist message board, I often wonder....do they want a "culture" where any statement or assertion can be made, with regard to any aspect of the Dharma, without recourse to the traditional positions, doctrine, orthodoxy, or what-have-you, as challenge to that statement or assertion?

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Mr. G wrote:Fruitzilla, are you saying you should be able to make statements on this forum that are not subject to discussion or debate?

Nope! That would be rather silly, no?
I'm saying that if my statements are constantly called into question, I might lose interest in making them.

If nothing else, continuing to make such statements allows others to offer their opinions-including those who have training, education, and experience.

You mean opinions that haven't been rehashed again and again and again over the years? Hardly I think.
Besides, these kinds of discussions almost almost turn into debates where both parties dig their trenches and throw their grenades from there. Wheee! I like this analogy!

When people talk about the "culture" of a Buddhist message board, I often wonder....do they want a "culture" where any statement or assertion can be made, with regard to any aspect of the Dharma, without recourse to the traditional positions, doctrine, orthodoxy, or what-have-you, as challenge to that statement or assertion?

To be clear, I was just talking about a culture that develops a certain way because of the population of the board. I'm not in anyway implying it should or shouldn't be different.

I think ever since the buddhadharma has been threatened with extinction due to the cultural revolution, it is pretty important that when transmitted to the west that it is understood properly since many westernes who rejected their cultural faith does not have the spine to honestly reflect the core of the buddhist teachings.

Also if one doesn't want to debate his or views, there isn't really much point in putting it out in a public discussion board.

Fruitzilla wrote:You mean opinions that haven't been rehashed again and again and again over the years? Hardly I think.
Besides, these kinds of discussions almost almost turn into debates where both parties dig their trenches and throw their grenades from there. Wheee! I like this analogy!
SNIP

To be clear, I was just talking about a culture that develops a certain way because of the population of the board. I'm not in anyway implying it should or shouldn't be different.

Cool. To my mind, opinions are just that....but one has to compare opinions against "authority." This, I think, is where people on msg. boards take issue....or, perhaps, more with the "tone" of authority than with the content itself. One must be able to differentiate between the grenade and the water balloon.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

I agree with Cone, but I'd add a further distinction (back to the issue of "culture"): different message boards value different kinds of authority, different kinds of reasoning and evidence, different forms of discourse. ZFI is actually surprisingly authoritarian, so long as the authority referred to is very obviously labeled ZEN ZEN ZEN in a way that is recognizable to its users. (see the "ask a teacher" section to see what I mean)

Fruitzilla wrote:
You mean opinions that haven't been rehashed again and again and again over the years? Hardly I think.
Besides, these kinds of discussions almost almost turn into debates where both parties dig their trenches and throw their grenades from there. Wheee! I like this analogy!

The reason why certain opinions/talking points get rehashed is because said topics get brought up again and again over the years. Sometimes the moderators and people end up having to point others to the older threads instead of repeating themselves, but then the older threads tend to get so large it becomes difficult for newbies to follow, so it starts all over again.

"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

And then is said: debate by disagreements/agreements in order to sharpen mutual each others insight. Very good exercise to emerge Dharma in daily life.

The fine line between rightenesses and sharpening
insights is made by an ownership of Dharma.

Buddha said: I have heard (or something in that way)......

edit to add: Buddha is not possesing right wisdom-compassion. Buddha is Wisdom-compassion.

Last edited by muni on Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

May all beings have happiness and the cause of happiness.
May they be free of suffering and the cause of suffering.
May they never be disassociated from the supreme happiness which is without suffering.
May they remain in the boundless equanimity, free from both attachment to close ones and rejection of others.

Fruitzilla wrote:You mean opinions that haven't been rehashed again and again and again over the years? Hardly I think.
Besides, these kinds of discussions almost almost turn into debates where both parties dig their trenches and throw their grenades from there. Wheee! I like this analogy!
SNIP

To be clear, I was just talking about a culture that develops a certain way because of the population of the board. I'm not in anyway implying it should or shouldn't be different.

Cool. To my mind, opinions are just that....but one has to compare opinions against "authority." This, I think, is where people on msg. boards take issue....or, perhaps, more with the "tone" of authority than with the content itself. One must be able to differentiate between the grenade and the water balloon.

Everything has a dominant culture that exists by these rules, thats just the nature of how human societies form. In those cultures there are always people who are more respected or less respected, as well there are always rules of conduct. There are always two types of influence, those with direct influence, like moderators, and those with indirect influence, like Namdrol (and many others whose opinions are also respected and looked up to, even if they don't realize it).

I don't think the culture here is one sided, I think that when opinions are stated as facts of Buddhism people call into question the validity of those facts by referring to the teachings. When its found that there is no corroboration in the teachings for a stated opinion, and when one cannot use superior reasoning to demonstrate why that opinion *should* be included in the teachings, then its decided that such an opinion is OK to hold if thats what you want to do, but not OK to call Buddhism, since its not.

Now of course this always upsets peoples ego. People always think that their beliefs and opinions are soooo important, but in reality they are not important in the sense that they are important because "you" hold them. They are only important insofar as they allow you to work towards or away from liberation. People always want to say "I can do what I want!", but that will lead you nowhere except further into ignorance. Its true, you can be an Eternalist nutjob and call it Buddhism, you have free will and sentience, so yes you can make that choice. But in order to keep the content on Dharma Wheel worth reading, those opinions are relegated to a specific subforum, and for the rest of the forums they are discussed to a point, but when its clearly demonstrated that it has no place in Dharma, continued discussion is basically not allowed.

As someone with no influence and who was not on esangha, I appreciate that. I like the good quality content of these forums, as opposed to it being filled with random opinions and such without any controls. I know that when certain people reply, I can seriously consider their answers in good faith knowing they are more experienced than I am. I also like knowing that I can express my opinion as long as I express it as an opinion, or as my personal experience, and that even then when people correct me they are not mean about it, they just say "no, its more like this" and I appreciate that as well because it helps me correct wrong views. I like that better than a situation where they (people posting quality content) are constantly having to defend their position against something absurd like some new age belief or whatever in the Dharma, and where ultimately those people will stop putting up with it, leave the forum, and leave it to a bunch of uninformed idiots like me . If the Dharma is Truth, which I believe it is, then that Truth is the Truth, and any deviation from that Truth is obviously not Truth. So why bother allowing deviation from the Truth? Of course now I sound like an extremist, but I could provide my well reasoned argument for this, but it would take me a few pages so I'm not going to do that...

Of late, this forum has seen quite a shift in content towards Dzogchen.

It seems that there is a corresponding shift in trolling patterns.

I'm really new here (to the board in general) so I can't comment on any pattern, but I don't think it's a huge surprise to see a lot of traffic related to "Dzogchen" when you have a thread w/ Dzogchen in the title

Also curious re: who has been trolling - just so I have a heads up, being a noob. I didn't see anything I'd call trolling on this thread, but then, the mods here are pretty quick to nuke things that are inappropriate or contra the ToS.

“I say good-bye to hope, but I also say goodbye to hope's disappointment.”

CapNCrunch wrote: I didn't see anything I'd call trolling on this thread, but then, the mods here are pretty quick to nuke things that are inappropriate or contra the ToS.

Unfortunately, mods will always be faulted for being too liberal or too conservative, too quick to act or too slow to act. We can never win.

To add to what Mr. G has written moderating this forum is mostly a thankless task, it is time consuming and sometimes pretty stressful when dealing with irate, rude and occasionally downright nasty individuals. Overall, decisions are taken which are intended to benefit the whole community, that is, both seasoned practitioners and newcomers to Buddhadharma.

Please note there is a procedure if one is not happy with an act of moderation:

If you have a complaint about an act of moderation...

Attempt to resolve the issue with the moderator in question first (if known, and if online) via PM, and if that is unsuccessful, please raise the issue with an adminstrator via PM. If your complaint is against an administrator, tell the other administrator. Complaints will be investigated by an administrator using the Terms Of Service as a framework. The words and actions of all members (including moderators and administrators) will be assessed with respect to the Terms Of Service and you will be notified of the outcome of your complaint via PM or e-mail. As with public complaints about posts, please do not publicly complain about moderation, as that is disruptive to the forum and is not the appropriate method for resolving such disputes.

CapNCrunch wrote: I didn't see anything I'd call trolling on this thread, but then, the mods here are pretty quick to nuke things that are inappropriate or contra the ToS.

Unfortunately, mods will always be faulted for being too liberal or too conservative, too quick to act or too slow to act. We can never win.

To add to what Mr. G has written moderating this forum is mostly a thankless task, it is time consuming and sometimes pretty stressful when dealing with irate, rude and occasionally downright nasty individuals. Overall, decisions are taken which are intended to benefit the whole community, that is, both seasoned practitioners and newcomers to Buddhadharma.

Please note there is a procedure if one is not happy with an act of moderation:

If you have a complaint about an act of moderation...

Attempt to resolve the issue with the moderator in question first (if known, and if online) via PM, and if that is unsuccessful, please raise the issue with an adminstrator via PM. If your complaint is against an administrator, tell the other administrator. Complaints will be investigated by an administrator using the Terms Of Service as a framework. The words and actions of all members (including moderators and administrators) will be assessed with respect to the Terms Of Service and you will be notified of the outcome of your complaint via PM or e-mail. As with public complaints about posts, please do not publicly complain about moderation, as that is disruptive to the forum and is not the appropriate method for resolving such disputes.

Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Yes, Tara and G and others, you guys do an exceptional job moderating. Probably the best moderation I've experienced, which is really saying something on a forum of a religious nature, especially one pertaining to a religion with so many different approaches. I think you guys do a great job at the difficult task of balancing keeping true to authentic Dharma and being democratic and allowing free expression. So thanks, and well done.