No. Look again. Not at 8s. Monfil uses a bent arm, not a straight arm. That means if he were using isr there at 8s you would see his elbow fly out behind him in conjuction with the racquet face closing. but it doesn't. it stays in the same position and his bicep doesn't move. That's forearm pronation not isr.

If you have a bent arm and you use isr the elbow will move. the racquet is facing up. the elbow doesn't move. then the racquet is facing down. clear as day.

you are not understanding correctly. all three mentioned use ssc in their forearm by supinating max in their forward swing.

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I am just peachy
Thank you.
I was trying to take a jab at MTM but it backfired.
The issue is which of two (or three) options is more efficient.
i.e Ft-1 vs (Ft-2 or FT-3)
There is a belief (not mine) that FT-2 and FT-3 use ssc "better"
Now I have to have a drink before I will go to a Christmas party.

Check out the pictures that toly posted about forearm and wrist movements. This is my understanding of the definitions.

In the picture of Fed that you posted the racquet is making very roughly a 90° angle with the forearm, true? That means that the racquet, more specifically the line from the handle to the tip, is in a plane that is normal to the forearm axis. Let's define the positive direction of the forearm axis from the hand to the elbow. Let's define the positive direction of the racquet axis as from the handle to the tip. Pronation would therefore be a positive rotation (right hand rule) of the racquet axis about the forearm axis.

Because racquet axis and the forearm axis are normal, neither pronation or supination will cause a rotation about racquet axis, which would be required to open or close the racquet face.

In the picture you provided a human should be able to pronate their forearm about 90° from the position shown. The racquet would be point more toward the camera, though in this case not at the camera. In your picture Fed's racquet is not quite in the same position as in the other Fed picture. His upper arm as rotated so that the racquet is pointing a bit more backwards.

Please remember that I am making some approximations on some of these positions. His racquet and forearm are not exactly normal (90°), but they are certainly not in-line. His forearm isn't pointed straight down but rather at an angle to the ground, so the plane normal to the axis of the forearm is not parallel to the ground.

Sorry for all of the engineering/math speak, but I don't know how else to unambiguously communicate my meaning.

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Your quote
--->
Pronation would therefore be a positive rotation (right hand rule) of the racquet axis about the forearm axis.
---->
Do you take a vector product of two vectors?
What do you mean by "right hand rule" ?

This thread is turning to a mess due to the lack of agreement on definitions. Rather than create new definitions, we should just use the medical terms as a standard. When you lie down on your back with the palms- the forearm is in a supinated position. Supination is a verb. The shoulder is also externally rotated.

In any case, I'll just say what I feel I do. When I put my thumb down on the take back, it is mainly elbow/hand pronation, with a veeery slight ISR.

By the way, what is internal shoulder rotation and what does it do to my stroke?

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Internal shoulder rotation is the rotation of your upper arm at the shoulder. If you put your hand on a table, arm completely straight, and try to turn your elbow outward/inward, you're experiencing ISR.
see here: http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/anatomy/Image19.gif
ISR is used in the serve (along with forearm pronation) and sometimes the forehand (but it's not at all necessary and could be harmful to for the shoulder).

This thread is turning to a mess due to the lack of agreement on definitions. Rather than create new definitions, we should just use the medical terms as a standard. When you lie down on your back with the palms- the forearm is in a supinated position. Supination is a verb. The shoulder is also externally rotated.

In any case, I'll just say what I feel I do. When I put my thumb down on the take back, it is mainly elbow/hand pronation, with a veeery slight ISR.

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I agree. And even talking about medical terms doesn't even help anyone learn how to actually hit the ball.

(BTW I don't agree with that site regards the lower body since he doesn't seem to like rotation and the kinetic chain but he describes the arm and racket motion quite well (humerus IR, supination followed by pronation...)

This thread is turning to a mess due to the lack of agreement on definitions. Rather than create new definitions, we should just use the medical terms as a standard. When you lie down on your back with the palms- the forearm is in a supinated position. Supination is a verb. The shoulder is also externally rotated.

In any case, I'll just say what I feel I do. When I put my thumb down on the take back, it is mainly elbow/hand pronation, with a veeery slight ISR.

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1.I have thought that "supination" is a noun.
2.I do NOT know a medical terminology

All this technical talk has actually gotten me some useful insight into my own FH! I figured out that I sometimes have too much ISR after contact...probably residual from the older swing path. The result was I was finishing with a high elbow and the racquet pointed down. I was compensating for the early/excess supination with pronation and excess ISR. In other words 'arming it'

same thing with me. I got to examine my take back more closely again and feel like increasing pressure on the pinky heelpad in the air while lifting the elbow seems to make the swing less floppy and more weight behind the swing. and some other left hand motion.

I was watching a Vic Braden video on Youtube, and he says to get your chin to your shoulder for forehands - as a drill, put a colored dot on the shoulder and get your chin there. Apparently, it increases pre-stretching and makes for a straight arm forehand.

I was watching a Vic Braden video on Youtube, and he says to get your chin to your shoulder for forehands - as a drill, put a colored dot on the shoulder and get your chin there. Apparently, it increases pre-stretching and makes for a straight arm forehand.

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May work as you say here, but I've always used that as a way of keeping the
head still and focused on the contact pt.

I was watching a Vic Braden video on Youtube, and he says to get your chin to your shoulder for forehands - as a drill, put a colored dot on the shoulder and get your chin there. Apparently, it increases pre-stretching and makes for a straight arm forehand.

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but many times I find I don't need that much shoulder rotation. doing that every single time is overkill I think. but it sounds good for ball machine or just hitting session.

I think it is an overkill but it does seem to help the last time I tried it. I will try again tomorrow.

His other observation was that the center of gravity of the body moves with the racket in the forehand stroke. CG is just above the belly button in males and just below in females. If a line is drawn parallel to the racket through the belly button, it moves with it through the stroke. It also moves up into the stroke - he does not believe in the myth of always staying low.

I'm having a tough time on how the topspin drive works. Am I really suppose to swing through the ball with a diagnol swingpath? Do I continue the diagnol path immediately after the ball leaves my racket?

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Practice and you'll find out what is best for you. Some hit topspin shots very deep and heavy to the baseline, others hit topspin just over the net to the line at no mans land, you need to learn it all, and that is only accomplished through right practice.

where is my post I made here regarding wegner? (I wrote a very constructive and civil post about what I like and don't like about his Videos)

I don't understand the mods here. sometimes they delete something for no reason and on the other Hand they allow harsh insults in the current Scene Forum. really no consistency here I think they Need to hire me:.

I really don't appreciate when I write a thoughtfull post here and the effort gets deleted for no reason. I think I can Claim that I write Quality Content and Analysis here so I don't want to waste my time with Posts that get deleted.

I admit that I sometimes do spam the current Scene Forum just because the People there are so fanatic and clueless but I really care for biomechanics and like to create toughtfull Analysis about this Topic.