You guys read (presumably) lots of submissions, so what do you see over & over that you're sick to death of as far as motifs, themes, bad guys or setting locations? When you begin reading a submission, what immediately makes you sigh, shake your head and toss the manuscript into the "Decline" pile? (i.e. "That's the sixth submission in a row that features a flumph as the bad guy! ARRGGHH!" or "Why do all these writers keep using the Elemental Plane of Marshmallow as a setting?!?"

You guys read (presumably) lots of submissions, so what do you see over & over that you're sick to death of as far as motifs, themes, bad guys or setting locations? When you begin reading a submission, what immediately makes you sigh, shake your head and toss the manuscript into the "Decline" pile? (i.e. "That's the sixth submission in a row that features a flumph as the bad guy! ARRGGHH!" or "Why do all these writers keep using the Elemental Plane of Marshmallow as a setting?!?"

Spelling and grammatical errors aside, what turns you off?

Excellent question. The short version is that no, nothing is off limits for the right proposal that gets the nuances of Appendix N and the DCC line just right.

The longer version is that, yes, a proposal has better odds of being accepted if it avoids tropes that have been hit early on in the DCC RPG adventure cycle. Internally we've made a "no more tentacles" resolution, but if, six months from now, an *amazing* tentacle adventure (I’m looking at you, Ogrepuppy) shows up on our doorstep, we’d be fools to pass on it.

Sometime after the core is released we’ll be posting updated submission guidelines, but that shouldn’t stop anyone from scrawling down notes for their Appendix N adventures. The field is wide open for folks looking to stake their claims.

Also, authors shouldn’t feel limited to submitting only to Goodman Games. There is a surprising amount of enthusiasm coming from 3rd party publishers, making for excellent “small pond” conditions for writers itching to flex their DCC chops. I expect we’ll see an announcement in the next month or so of the first wave 3pps.

Folks looking to write DCC adventures face an interesting window of possibility and challenge. Back in the day a fledgling writer like myself could get my foot in the door by pouring over my favorite old TSR adventures and wondering, “What could have been?”

So while now the field is truly wide open for new authors, the bar has been raised (or at least made more distant). To state the obvious, the next wave of DCC authors will need to be acquainted with the same source texts Gary and Dave were referencing … which is pretty fun when you think about it.

Honestly, I *SUCK* at writing adventures. It's the years of wanting to be a writer (author) that trips me up: I can't imagine my players (if I had any, see more below) not being frustrated by the choo-choo of the railroady adventures I inflict upon them!

I have ideas that I think could be developed if a) I had guidance or b) I had a touch more creativity. (Don't confuse imagination--which I have in spades--with creativity, as they're not the same thing.) I think my biggest issue is I come up with a kernel of an idea and then....just don't know how to expand on it. How do I take that cool scene in my head and turn it into a viable adventure?

(It also doesn't help that I haven't DMed a group in...wow, almost 5 years, and currently don't even have a group to PLAY in.)

So, OP, what you're struggling with is structure, from the sound of it. You have the wild ideas, the daring-do, the horror... oh, such horror -- but how to tie it all together... that's your stumbling block?

Been there.

If I'm anywhere near the right ballpark (I can heard vendors...), throw out a couple wild ideas (they don't even have to be your best), and why not let's* use this thread (or another, if needs be) to hash them over and see what happens, eh?

Actually, I've been pondering this for a few days...and I think I see what Harley does. I've never tried it, but I've heard about it.

Harley designs location-based adventures, and leaves the details and vagaries of HOW the PCs got there to the particular DM.

It's just that Harley does REALLY FREAKING COOL location-based adventures, whereas I haven't tried one before. (I, for some reason, think I need to design NPCs first, and then have those NPCs do __insert things here__ to make up an adventure. This is part of the process, but likely a part that can be saved for later. Harley, you can tell me if you agree.)

I'll try one on my own.

If it sucks monkey scrote, I'll post a few ideas here and see if we can build ourselves a little adventure.

Be back in a while. (Hours, days, who knows...however long it takes to create a location-based slaughterho--err, adventure.)

Last edited by Ogrepuppy on Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

If it helps at all...I usually think about the ideas for an adventure for literally months before it comes together. I usually have several interesting encounters in the back of my mind that I'd like to use. I keep rearranging them and try to find a way to tie them together. I ponder it. Then I keep doing a lot of reading and playing and other inspirational work. That drives more ideas and eventually I have 5 or 10 or 15 ideas for neat encounters. Then at some point it all "clicks" and my subconscious delivers the right way to tie the encounters together. Once the plot comes together, it's ready to go. Then I start to actually write. Once it all comes together it's easy...but it can take months of pondering to make it all come together.

If it helps at all...I usually think about the ideas for an adventure for literally months before it comes together. I usually have several interesting encounters in the back of my mind that I'd like to use. I keep rearranging them and try to find a way to tie them together. I ponder it. Then I keep doing a lot of reading and playing and other inspirational work. That drives more ideas and eventually I have 5 or 10 or 15 ideas for neat encounters. Then at some point it all "clicks" and my subconscious delivers the right way to tie the encounters together. Once the plot comes together, it's ready to go. Then I start to actually write. Once it all comes together it's easy...but it can take months of pondering to make it all come together.

This x 20. If I haven't passed through some sort of gestation period it will be dirt. I need subconscious downtime to pick up cool things from the world and hang them on the plot.

Note that this can be sped up by brainstorming with another like-minded gamer (or, your boss). You write something sort of cool, he says something *way* cool, which sparks something I wouldn't have thought of by myself. (This actually happened earlier this week, and now I'm dying to write the adventure.)

Also, per Ogrepuppy's post, you are 100% correct. You have no f/x budget, so why settle for the forgettable? Peter Jackson should be drooling over our visuals.

I guess the old standby ideas worked well in the 1920's but seem pretty tired today. I swear that half of Robert E Howard's stories involved some pre-human pict people, H P Lovecraft seemed to enjoy strange reptile folk, and so on. Hard to bring in the feeling of the old pulp stories without directly ripping them off....

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." -- Gary Gygax"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" -- Dave Arneson

Actually, I was talking about fresh adventure ideas specifically for DCC adventures. (Although yes, the 1920s authors did seem to hew to the same old stuff over & over.)

I remember reading an article in Dungeon magazine (I think it was when Erik Mona was editor and the article may have even been written by him) where it was suggested that submissions were getting stale, and that every few submissions that they reviewed had "yet another dragon as it's protagonist".

This article implored writers to submit adventures OFF the (well) beaten path....that Dungeon editors were looking for new, fresh ideas.

My only caution to the editor's "not another orc adventure" doldrums is to remember that the classic, old stories and plots will always be fresh.

Perhaps I'm among the minority, perhaps not, but I don't get tired of a re-telling of an old story. Each author provides a slightly different point of view to a classic. For example, think how different the idea of a low level adventure based on a town or fort at the edge of the wilderness can be. Gygax penned the classic The Keep on the Borderlands. Harley provided us with Into the Wilds. Clark Peterson and Bill Webb offered up The Crucible of Freya. And, as my last example, Casey Christofferson wrote Haunted Highlands for Castles & Crusades.

Each of the above examples uses the same basic concept, but each provides a radically different feel and gaming experience.

Sometime next year, we'll open up the doors to independent submissions for DCC RPG adventures (as Harley alluded to). Let me take a moment to describe what the submission guidelines will look like. I think that will answer some of the questions in this thread, in a slightly roundabout way.

I'm writing these off the top of my head, so the final published guidelines may vary somewhat, but in general the submission guidelines will be something like this:

* The writer must be familiar with the authors of Appendix N. I would expect that they have read a representative cross-sampling of the books in Appendix N, and be specifically familiar with the books Gygax generally defined as the most influential on D&D; namely, the works of REH, ERB, HPL, Merritt, de Camp & Pratt, Fritz Leiber, and Jack Vance.

* The writer should be familiar with the sci-fi/fantasy/horror/comic cultural influences of the 1960's/1970's. This may sound odd for the moment (since none of you have seen the DCC RPG rulebook or the adventures yet) but 1960's/1970's culture is crucial to the ambiance of a retro-style RPG. Afros, Mr. T, cargo vans, bell bottoms, Planet of the Apes, Creepy and Eerie and Vampirella, Savage Sword of Conan, Frank Frazetta, KISS: the list can go on and on, and there are many candidates for inclusion, but understanding these influences is important in conjuring up the retro vibe and nostalgic sensations that will make DCC RPG writing appealing to its target age group.

* The writer should be familiar with the imagery of the pulp magazine era (i.e., late 1920's through the 1950's). This is the era when many of the greats in Appendix N were actually doing their writing. The visuals of that era are part of the DCC RPG inspiration. Frank R. Paul is a powerful influence on the cover images; the pen-and-ink masters are important for the interiors: Virgil Finlay, Al Williamson, Wally Wood, Alex Raymond, Hal Foster -- and their modern descendants such as Mark Schultz, Bernie Wrightson, and so on.

* With all these influences in mind, there are a couple hard and fast rules about DCC RPG adventures that must be followed.

First, all new, or almost all new, creatures / monsters / NPCs. The beautiful thing about the influences noted above is that most are pre-genre; i.e., most of the Appendix N books were written before the terms "science fiction" and "fantasy" existed as genre descriptions. (Look at old Frank R. Paul covers from the 1930's and you can see the term "scientifiction" being used to describe some stories -- one of the early attempts to differentiate sub-genres of adventure stories.) This leads to the conclusion that the writers had no canon to draw from: they were in new, uncharted territory. I would expect that all DCC RPG encounters feel the same way. The author should approach them as if there is no monster manual or genre material to draw from: each opponent should make sense in the context of that adventure, and not be plucked from some predetermined menu of opponents.

Second, strong overtones of pre-genre crossover. Appendix N is composed of authors who routinely crossed genre lines, sometimes in the same story. I expect to see "fantasy" with elements of what would be called "horror" or "science fiction" by modern standards.

Third, a strong narrative within the adventure. That is, protagonists and antagonists, NPC / creature motivations, events, character histories, and all the other things that make a great piece of fiction. Even if the characters are simply exploring a place, there should be a history therein, a mystery to solve, and a story that emerges.

Fourth, the ability to communicate mysteries beyond the ken of man. Too many D&D terms are over-used and meaningless in this regard: I am frankly tired of manuscripts that use the words "eldritch," "divine," "arcane," and other D&D phrases. Challenge yourself to describe magical encounters using words outside the D&D lexicon, in a way that would make a non-D&D player experience a sense of mystery.

Fifth, extraordinary visuals. Players should walk away remembering the sights their PCs experienced. Harley's Sailors on the Starless Sea features a vast underground sea at the center of which is an island ziggurat topped by a fiery sacrifice. My People of the Pit has a fog-shrouded canyon with crumbling stairs spiraling to its base, where a massive blubbery beast sends rotund tentacles slithering upwards out of the fog. And so on.

Sixth, no D&D stereotypes. No dwarves miners or giant-slayers. No elven foresters. No goblin raiders (especially not caravan raiders!). And so on.

Off the top of my head, those are the rules. I'll probably refine this list as we get closer to publishing submission guidelines next year.

Back to the prior posts in this thread: I agree that a good re-telling of a classic story is fine. There are only so many stories to tell, and what matters is often the strength of the telling, more than the story itself.

It's funny you mention submissions with dragons. Not one of the DCC RPG adventures features a dragon. One of them does feature a bad guy who rides a gigantic pterodactyl (see http://www.goodman-games.com/5071preview.html ). Every time I run that adventure, I describe his mount using visual terms, never naming it as a pterodactyl...but the players ALWAYS conclude the "leathery reptilian winged beast" I'm describing is a dragon. D&D players like to categorize the creatures they face. Your job as a writer is to break those categories.

I got lucky and found a few at my local used book store...try that approach?

Yeah, I've amassed a large collection of Merritt books by scouring used book stores. San Francisco has some excellent used book stores (Borderlands Books, Kayo Books, Green Apple Books, etc.) that have turned up quite a few copies. There's also a great used book store in southern LA, Altair-4 Collectibles, that often has good finds. (I got my first Virgil Finlay art book from them -- to this day the only copy I've ever seen in print at a book store versus available online.) And San Diego itself has several good used book stores, not as specialized in sci-fi/fantasy but which nonetheless occasionally turn up a Merritt book. It takes a couple years and regular visits but it can happen.

That said, it helps to be in a big city with a lot of recirculating books...not sure how many you'd find in more out-of-the-way locations.

I'll have to seek out Merritt and Vance, as I haven't read either yet....edit, later: Oh my GOD...Abraham Merritt's books are INSANELY expensive...

You'll like Merritt. I've only read The Moon Pool, and not too long ago at that -- but the first 80-100 pages read like ERB and HPL had a baby and it was A. Merritt. 'Nuff Said.

Also, I got the Moon Pool for about $4-5 off of eBay. If you don't need pristine copies, it's a decent option, failing crossing paths with the right used bookstores. In the first half of this year, I picked up 11 different App. N books for less than $50 via eBay. Been working my way through the stack...

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." -- Gary Gygax"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" -- Dave Arneson

I enjoyed THE MOON POOL but wouldn't rank it up there with ERB or REH, in my opinion.

I'm not sure I'd rank it up there either, but the combination of action and just-out-of-the-edge-of-your-vision creepiness was like a synthesis of the two, which appealed to me greatly. He's apparently recognized as an influence on HPL, and it shows. The middle of The Moon Pool shifts gears into an society-inside-the-earth story and looses much action and weirdness, but it returns toward the end...

He apparently also wrote a book called The People of The Pit -- now where have I heard that title before...?

I happen to dislike the word eldritch unless it's 1) in a HPL story or 2) talking about the lead singer of the Sisters of Mercy.

#2 is why I love the word. Why couldn't I have named myself Eldritch and committed myself to a lifetime of heartbreaking flings with tempestuous dark haired beauties? Ah well, one out of two isn't bad.

Quick note on tentacles. We made the ruling, *not* because they are tired, but because they were showing up in too many of the new DCCs.

Somewhere I read a critique of this, something along the lines of "Tentacles ≠ Lovecraftian Horror", and I've come to believe it is correct. We needed to dig deeper, so deeper we dug.

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