So here we are, Gatewatchers, at the brink of a precipice—the last episode of Game of Thrones‘ wild and (slightly) controversial second season! We saw some iconic moments come to life as well as some interesting and radical changes from book canon.

Tragically, this is the last Twitter post until 2013! Read these words and despair!

As per the norm, these brilliant snippets of global praise, horror and snark were taken from tweets hashtagged #GameOfThrones and #ValarMorghulis, dutifully and with glee by @Axechucker and @The_Rabbit01.

Spoilers? Maybe a few. I wouldn’t fret… unless you didn’t watch the bloody episode. If you haven’t, well—go do that!

@StephenMichaelW: I realize Khal Drogo is lucky they don’t have To Catch a Predator in Westeros, but I just love him and Dany so much.

@GameOfRos: The House of the Undying. Ironic that it’s in the episode that is TRYING TO KILL ME!

@nyshopgirl14: My emotions about everything are out of control. #dramadesks

@stephanieobed: noooo khal drogo this is making me so so SO sad

But Dany hears her dragons screaming, and she turns away, and a million hearts break.

@randomlykevfer: House of the undying was cooler in the book but I liked the tv version too.

@SeattleSlim: Where are the rest of the visions. These are important….

@mikeovrboard: Yup, they ruined the HOUSE OF UNDYING.

Hmm…

SOAPBOX TIME!

(Hey, gimme my time. It’s the last one of the season!)

Okay, see… I was a little pissed at first too, thinking we’d basically been gypped out of every cool House of the Undying scene from the book. But on my second viewing, I think I kind of figured out what they were doing, and I have actually come full circle on my opinion of the scene. On rewatching the episode, it became clear to me that prophetic visions were not within the power of the warlocks to give. Nothing in the two visions Dany had were particularly prophetic.

It’s all an illusion given by Pree—one that played on thoughts and memories straight from Dany’s mind. We didn’t see Rhaegar, or the wolf-headed corpse, or Elia of Dorne because those weren’t in Dany’s mind.

The throne room, cold, devastated… that was the warlocks’ way of saying, “This is what you seek? You don’t want this. Stay with us.”

Drogo and Rhaego… this was the warlocks’ way of saying “…And this is what we can give you. Your happy ending. Stay with us.”

She chose neither, ultimately, and the warlocks were forced to physically chain her in order to make her stay. They were finished with the wooing at that point. Now of course, we can bring up the argument that there were no actual “warlocks”—there was only Pyat Pree. (There certainly weren’t any Undying!)

Which is an entirely different subject, but also sort of cool. Talk about a master of illusion! Pyat Pree was all of them.

I dunno. Not what a lot of people wanted… but in my mind it makes sense. Pyat Pree couldn’t grant Dany the ability to see prophesy.

So Dany returns to the central chamber to find her three dragons chained to a pedestal. Within moments, she’s chained to one too! (And somewhere, @Madcanard cheered.)

@BigDamnHerosSir: Okay, there’s a very distinct BDSM feeling to a lot of this episode. I’m not complaining, I’m just saying.

@mW_: DRAKARIS!!!!!

@heyjulieann: MELT HIS FACE. #DRACARYS

@MistaOlaf: YESS KHALEESIII!!!

@JeanP240: OMG!!! The dragons are fucking awesome!!!

@AKA_Qthulhu: PYRE Pree, hahaha

@Berryums: Baby. Dragons. Awesome.

@kaciesays: I knew you had it in you! #khaleesi #motherofdragons

@Rove: Remember kids, dragons are for life, not just for Christmas.

@JohnnyCables: #gameofthrones those dragons are cuter than kittens. Don’t mess with Dany. #teamDany

@MickWoof: In the 60s, we had buttons which read Go Go Gandalf, & Frodo Lives. Now I want one that reads Hail, Mother of Dragons.

@JohnnyCables: Daenerys > the Queen of England #teamDany

@zer0faults: Every season ends with Daenerys proving why she is the baddest bitch in all the kingdoms.

@gusandleo: Of course it was all a trick.

@nanarjy: I think the creepy skinny guy was wearing Toms

And really, that’s enough of a crime to die in a fire for.

So now we go North of the Wall, where a captive Jon Snow is being thwacked in the head by Ygritte, playing the role of very annoying little sister.

@YgrittetheWild: So yeah, I just bopped Jon Snow on the head with his own sword.

@magda711: Comment of the day “There’s no way Jon Snow is staying a virgin around Gwen.”

@FYWinterfell: …kill the boy, Jon. Kill the boy.

Well you maybe can’t tell under all that bulky fur, but Ygritte is a girl!

@heyjulieann: That was way harsh, Jon

@heyjulieann: Man, the sex they’re gonna have later is gonna be awesome.

@Tiggy4Real: FINALLY JON IS FIGHTING LIKE A MAN!!! Even if it was at the expense of brother. He ain had to talk bout his mom though

No he ain!

Back in Qarth, Dany pays a quiet visit on some old friends…

@heyjulieann: Oh hey, Doreah. You traitor.

@GameOfRos: Doreah – boo, you whore

@YgrittetheWild: Doreah, you whore! #truth

@SeattleSlim: Doreah that thirsty bitch. I knew she was no good. Off her, Khalessi.

Irri had much more sympathy going.

Then again, Irri was only strangled to death, not shoved into a empty stone vault to either run out of air, or food, or water, or to be made into a meal for the new ruler of Qarth, the First (and Last) of his name, King Ducksauce.

I wouldn’t want to be Doreah.

@YgrittetheWild: Stay safe in there and have lots of little disloyal babies before you eat each other to death!

Right? That’s exactly what I was thinking, minus the babies part. Dudes are not gonna last nine months.

@heyjulieann: Damn, Danerys. That was cold.

@conormcrawls: Oh khaleesi you a bad bitch

@FYWinterfell: So…guess Xaro won’t be making a return appearance in Season 5 or 6?

I’ve never read Elio’s and Linda’s reviews but its people like them who make me wish the internet didn’t exist, can’t people just be happy to have an awesome show like this being made by talented people with amazing actors and production values. Who gives a shit if it’s different from the books.

YAY! Thanks so much, guys! Will definitely miss these tweets – like many others have said, they’re one of my very favorite parts of the GoT week here :-) Now, for the casting and speculating. Oh, and a few curtain calls, I guess. Will miss Maester Luwin! :-(

Last twitter commentary for 10 months!? NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Literally the highlight of my week on this site, I’ve looked forward to these far more than the other recaps. Thanks for all the effort it must take to compile.

I really like your interpretation of the show’s interpretation of the House of the Undying. I don’t think the book’s version would have worked. We’d just have the undying prattling on and we’d wonder “who are these creeps, what do they know about the future and don’t they have better things to do with that knowledge than dole out cryptic verbal clues to proactive princesses from abroad?”

Maybe my reply would fit better in another post, but I actually think that Elio does not deserve that – the analysis he writes each week tries to be balanced and fair. Sure, he’s much more on the purist side of the spectrum than I am, but his review is measured, things are kept in proportion and perspective. What any other Westeros editor or forum member might think or express or advocate or write, and in what tone and manner, is a completlely different matter (even radically different at times), just talking about Elio’s weekly analysis. I find myself mostly agreeing with his points, the weakest parts are those that I find problematic myself as well, it’s just that the issues that exist are much much less devastating overall for me.

I’m a book reader myself, yet I find the comments made by many of the ‘purists’ to be incredibly insulting to the show and the people who make it. As I said I haven’t read their reviews so I’ll take your word that their reviews are balanced and leave them out of any harsh comments but I find the whole ‘complaining about a TV show’ by other book purists such as some commenters on this site detrimental. I fear all this negativity from book fans is just going to end up discouraging David and Dan and having the show end prematurely.

A bit of constructive criticism is good but moaning and nitpicking gets old really quickly. One of my friends has taken to calling it Whingeros.

Re. the House of the Undying. I was a bit disappointed at first but I’m okay with it now. They made a decision to bring back Drogo and that became the focus. I don’t think the prophecies have been abandoned, I just think they’re going to be introduced in a different way. Maybe bit by bit, to build up Dany’s story when it’s a bit blah. Or maybe through a couple of characters? That’s fine, I don’t need immediate gratification, especially since there won’t be any payoff for a long time.

Oh and Brienne and The Hound? I thought I was the only person who entertained that idea! (Runs and hides)

is this sarcasm, because I thought Westeros.org gave an incredilbly fair review, they praised the high points and spoke about the very real shortcomings of the season in a calm balanced manner, not something one usually gets from other tv ep reviews. And they really did discuss the disappointments not only of book readers but new viewers. HBO is supposed to be fearless storytelling (the wire; the sopranos) but instead we get them scared to show ‘vision’ sequences’ (that treated in the right way could have been spectacular) and also to drop face time for their more popular characters in favor of story. Good stories wins, Westeros is right.

I’m a book reader, but I don’t mind the show changing, dropping or twisting characters or plot-points AS LONG AS IT TURNS OUT BETTER THAN THE ORIGINAL or at least better for the show.

I liked the House of the Undying. Poignant. The book was a cerebral visit, the tv show was an emotional visit. I appreciate that I got both.

I appreciated the tweets that HAHAHA’d at Theon for almost 140 characters. He deserved it!

So glad I am not alone in the anti Robb/Talisa camp. They’re just not right. Unsure if I was hoping for the book story, or if I just don’t like my awesome Ned Stark’s son acting so selfishly/boorishly, or if it’s HER I don’t like. She feels a little like a stock character to me.

I feel sorry for everyone who can not seperate the show from the books, they just miss what is the best show on TV imo. I think the ones seeing the show before they read the books are the lucky ones, they can just enjoy the show untroubled. : )

The book version of the House of Undying would not have worked for the same reason that we have still not seen the Tower of Joy. In TV, you cannot effectively foreshadow events that are not going to happen for years. As it is, we will see no resolution of these visions for at least four more years.

It’s a case of HBO not trusting their audience. Being edgy and risque on The Wire and the Sopranos is one thing because the budgets for those shows are a million times smaller than GoT. But on a show like GoT where quality of the production means millions of extra dollars being siphoned puts them on a kind of tightrope. I don’t envy the producers or the writers.

To have been a masterpiece ala The Wire, GoT would have to been funded by a gazillionaire fan who had so much money that he didn’t care about potentially losing the several demographics that watch the series. HBO has a formula: swearing, violence and sex/nudity are abound in all those shows but it’s the series that are ambitious in story that do not require a budget to sustain them that are the ones that survive. HBO feels that GoT must stick with that tried and true formula and weave the essence of Martin’s storyline in there. Making alterations the story for reasons that probably make sense to them and not us, ensuring the sex nudity quota is filled, making sure that the acting and production design is sound, making sure that the fantasy elements are restrained in some capacity, and for those people who are unable to follow the complexity of the story without losing interest in the narrative momentum…ham-fisting dialogue and story. Which is why season 1 is so much subtler in comparison: limitation of budget and therefore a stronger reliance on narrative and characters to sell it. Once they were given a larger budget with multiple location shooting, they seemed to have befuddled as to how to make it all work. I have said it before and I will say it again, Game of Thrones due to HBO’s bottom line requirements and agenda that it must try to satisfy all demographics in order to keep up it’s quality could never have been a masterpiece.

I think the purists are enjoying the show, they’d just enjoy it more if it were better. I’m moving over into the purist camp as well after that House of the Undying let down. I enjoy the show a lot on its own merits, I just rue missed opportunities, and especially changes that don’t improve the material.

For instance I approve of Ros being in the show. I don’t approve of compressing the mythical qualities into some empty visuals. It greatly flattens the characters of Jon and Dany if the only thing that matters in the show is the Game of Thrones and not the Song of Ice and Fire. Everything Elio said referencing Lost is completely true, and I’m not even a Lost fan.

I can’t articulate how much I loved this “rant.” I had a big post all typed up about THotU that pretty much said about the same things you did, FaB. The way the show depicted the visions fit their time constraints and were much more logical than the book’s. As someone said elseforum: If the warlocks could’ve foreseen all that furturistic shit, they’d certainly have foreseen Dany having the ability to command the dragons to fry their asses! I thought the show’s HotU was brilliant and waaaayy more effective.

This was a some great closure for this season (and PACO is back where he belongs). Thanks for all the hard work on these TweetCaps. I hope y’all know how much we appreciate them.

Just for the record, I removed the phrase “Westeros can eat sheit” from the post. Regardless of how one feels about their views on the adaptation, I don’t think this sort of hostile response conveys the attitude that we try to cultivate here at WiCnet. My apologies to anyone who found that comment out-of-line.

Now we return you to your regularly scheduled comment thread of laughing at the tweets!

Sonething is missing there, Fabio. ;-) “Ach du lieber!” is not a complite German sentence.
– Maybe you wanted to say “Ach du lieber Schwan!”? Hard to translate, but it would mean something along the lines of “„Holy Moly!“ ^^

Guys, I hate to get on a soapbox myself but it’s not the warlocks that saw the future it’s that Danaerys drank the Shade of the Evening herself then saw visions in the rooms of the House of the Undying that were related to her. Not that warlock magic put visions in her head, like the show had.

Winter Is Coming:
Just for the record, I removed the phrase “Westeros can eat sheit” from the post. Regardless of how one feels about their views on the adaptation, I don’t think this sort of hostile response conveys the attitude that we try to cultivate here at WiCnet. My apologies to anyone who found that comment out-of-line.

Now we return you to your regularly scheduled comment thread of laughing at the tweets!

To the purists: GRRM is executive producer. He has stated in interviews that D&D run all changes by him first to see if they will create a butterfly effect down the road; meaning, GRRM has signed off on everything that has been changed so far (or so he claims).

Perhaps if seasons were 20 episodes long, then yes, D&D could incorporate everything from the book into the show. But, there are a LOT of diversions and filler in the books; according to my theories, diversions, and false protagonists specifically, are an essential part of the story. D&D can probably cut out 3 quarters of the story, if they wanted to, and still get to the same place GRRM is going.

I think part of the problem for book purists is they get bummed out when a particular aspect of the story they were attached to gets cut out (see: Rhaegar). Perhaps they felt as if they were on to something, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath them. That, no doubt, is frustrating. And, book readers have invested quite a bit into this series, myself included (see the thousands upon thousands of threads that are posted on the Westeros message boards). I can imagine that if something on the show were to debunk one of my theories, I’d be pretty disheartened too, but luckily for me, that hasn’t happened yet (knock on wood).

Then again, it could come down to impatience. D&D have said that certain aspects of the storyline have been moved around, so, it’s very well possible that we’ll get a Rhaegar vision as we get closer to meeting Young Griff. Just because the HOTU didn’t deliver on all the visions, it doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve been cut out of the series entirely. We know that they don’t have a problem with showing dream sequences on the show (see 3 Eyed Crow), so perhaps the HOTU visions will be delivered through that medium later on in the series?

i like the show but just couldnt help myself comparing it to the books if the book parts were superior for me. some deviations like tywin/arya or cutting ser dontos and let littlefinger do his role are quite fine with me. there are just new or deviated scenes that just make me think that “they should have gone with the books on that one”

overall; a solid season. my personal opinion is season one got more to me emotionally but season 2 got more epic in terms of scope and the battles and the cgi.

my opinion on this season’s most debated deviation (house of the undying)

at first i was disappointed. got a little placated after the second or third viewing but now that i calmed down and thought about. i think this deviation is a testament that D&D don;’t have the confidence to do foreshadowings. i know foreshadowing is tricky. it hold you to things that later on you must stand on (an example is Lost, some flashforwards or foreshadowing just didnt worked and they were forced to get on with it for the sake of continuity)

with the way they are starting deviating from the books and stepping on butterflies (GRRM himself commented that there are some butterfly effects), i think they want room for themselves to alter future storylines in line with theirs. they don’t want to be tied down by prophecies and people later will start complaining, “how come this was prophecied but now its not happening”

like for example, they could have put melisandre’s two visions. she was confident the vision of renly taking stannis in the rear beneath the walls of kingslanding was prevented due to renly’s death. i understanding it is really not vital to put this one but it is still baffling with them going through the lengths of actually making loras were renly’s armor. a friend of mine who actually did notice it was confused why loras was wearing renly’s armor.

i am just paranoid with deviations. this is coming from a guy who loved The Sword of Truth by Goodkind (actually, the latter books are very disappointing but loved the series as a whole). tv adaptation of the series was called Legend of the Seeker and everything you could think that they may get wrong they actually did. it is as if they got a copy of the things i don’t want to happen and they did it anyway (the book series was called SWORD of truth and they NEVER bothered to explain the characteristic of that sword in the tv series).

now, the reason i mentioned that series is because as far as adaptations go, game of thrones is one of the most faithful and i am grateful it did not turn out like legend of the seeker BUT as the deviations of thrones got more and more numerous and affecting vital plots, one can’t really help but be paranoid that this might turn out like legend of a seeker. and believe me, i would really be depressed if that will happen.

i could forgive not mentioning or being given a proper backstory to rhaegar, lyanna, tournament of the false spring, mad king, etc.. IF they produce “GAME OF THRONES: WAR OF THE USURPER”

a prequel season featuring the young versions of the characters! i mean if ever the hbo series catch up with the books, HBO could give GRRM another year by doing a prequel seaason! it doesnt need to be a full season, 4 episodes could do it justice.

I agree. If the adaptation had been released AFTER the book series was completed we would have had the LOTR purist reaction which was negligible. The very fact that this series is still ongoing, that many Purists may be watching the series just to fill the void between now and the Winds of Winter, that changes in the story to the adaptation may signal the possible insignificance of the original narrative thread, that the popularity of certain characters and aspects of the series may effect George’s writing of future books…all of these stem from the fact that series is not yet finished and yet the adaptation is still going strong.

I have nothing against Elio either, except that he could maybe try to rein Linda in a little more.
For years they have been the face of ASOIAF fandom (and for years i have been lurking on their site), and since the start of S2 i’m starting to really wish that it could change soon.
I won’t even talk about the necessity to take a step back and trying to analize an adaptation on it’s own instead of dumbly thinking that a word for word translation would give us a better result.
As long as Linda writes articles like a temper tantrum throwing baby, it will look bad on the whole fandom (at least the whole book-readers fandom part) because a lot of non-book readers associates Westeros with the opinion of the majority of ASOIAF fans.
So nothing against Elio, but as it is, i’ll like it a lot more if another book-site (TOTH?) could become the reference for books fans and, more importantly, the spokesman of the fandom (i’ll take Hodor or Ilyn Payne as spokesman over Linda any day).

msd: A bit of constructive criticism is good but moaning and nitpicking gets old really quickly. One of my friends has taken to calling it Whingeros. Re. the House of the Undying. I was a bit disappointed at first but I’m okay with it now. They made a decision to bring back Drogo and that became the focus. I don’t think the prophecies have been abandoned, I just think they’re going to be introduced in a different way. Maybe bit by bit, to build up Dany’s story when it’s a bit blah. Or maybe through a couple of characters? That’s fine, I don’t need immediate gratification, especially since there won’t be any payoff for a long time.Oh and Brienne and The Hound? I thought I was the only person who entertained that idea! (Runs and hides)

I agree – Dany’s story will need some entertainment value enhancement for the coming seasons – I nearly skipped her chapters in the books so I can see they’ll have some freedom to change it a bit.

FaB- your thoughts on the HotU make sense to me. I’m one of the book readers who LOVED the season, and the changes. No complaining here. I’ll take whatever they throw at us next season because I have faith they’ll take care of the important business of Storm of Swords!! The shock and horror coming will make for great tweets!!

It’s a case of HBO not trusting their audience. Being edgy and risque on The Wire and the Sopranos is one thing because the budgets for those shows are amillion times smaller than GoT.But on a show like GoT where quality of the production means millions of extra dollars being siphoned puts them on a kind of tightrope. I don’t envy the producers or the writers.

To have been a masterpiece ala The Wire, GoT would have to been funded by a gazillionaire fan who had so much money that he didn’t care about potentially losing the several demographics that watch the series. HBO has a formula: swearing, violence and sex/nudity are abound in all those shows but it’s the series that are ambitious in story that do not require a budget to sustain them that are the ones that survive. HBO feels that GoT must stick with that tried and true formula and weave the essence of Martin’s storyline in there. Making alterations the story for reasons that probably make sense to them and not us, ensuring the sex nudity quota is filled, making sure that the acting and production design is sound, making sure that the fantasy elements are restrained in some capacity, and for those people who are unable to follow the complexity of the story without losing interest in the narrative momentum…ham-fisting dialogue and story. Which is why season 1 is so much subtler in comparison: limitation of budget and therefore a stronger reliance on narrative and characters to sell it. Once they were given a larger budget with multiple location shooting, they seemed to have befuddled as to how to make it all work. I have said it before and I will say it again, Game of Thrones due to HBO’s bottom line requirements and agenda that it must try to satisfy all demographics in order to keep up it’s quality could never have been a masterpiece.

But it’s still a darn good adaptation considering everything else.

Well to be fair, ACOK is a longer book than AGOT, Blackwater required a lot of money to be filmed, and the introduction of a whole new set of characters in the Dragonstone crew among others makes it harder for writers to trim down to fit within the 10 episode format.

I’m actually quite surprised about some of the casting news for season 3. An older and more politically obvious Margaery would have mitigated some of the loss of a Queen of Thorns (I liked her in the books), the theories about Osha replacing the Reeds made sense to a certain extent once the showrunners had Bran experience a vision originally from Jojen, etc. Hell, we’ll have some characters resurface too when Lysa Arryn shows up after Littlefinger spirits Sansa away, the Freys for RW, etc

Splitting book 3 into two might be enough to give enough time for all the stories to stew properly but going to be rough once Arya makes it to Braavos and another slew of characters have to be introduced. Martin’s story gets pretty bloated in books 4 and 5 with all the POVs. I’m hoping Areo Hotah is cut out entirely. By far the most useless PoV.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their own subjective opinions; it is when they confuse their preferences with objective fact they I get annoyed.

The producers/writers/directors/actors are doing the best show they can do (within the limits of time and budget) and doing it in they way THEY feel it should be done. If you are disappointed with part or all of it, well, that’s life-nothing can work for everyone. But the talent assembled here is quite amazing, and in my subjective opinion, the idea that anyone else could have done a better job is both dubious and besides the point-no one else was going to do it.

For myself, I think they are giving us an amazing ride, far better than I ever expected, and I hope they realize that there a lot of us out here who greatly appreciate the enormous effort they are putting into it.

I feel D&D needs voice from each side of the spectrum. If everyone was cheering wildly at anything that was put on screen, this series could easily degenerate to the TB adaptation level (yes i know, it’s scary). I feel some are hating for the sake of hating the purists. If you bothered to read their reasoning behind it, you’d find that it’s got substance to it (i.e it isn’t about small details like hair or eye color..). The problem I think the purists don’t realize is that this is D&D’s first foray into television making. Sure they got season one under their belt, but this show just keeps growing bigger. The hype certainly is, and all these expectations are weighing down on two guys who has so far imo overachieved.

A lot of the issues from the changes stem from limited resources. Their main source of frustration is the choices the writers make in judging what should be included in the 50min episode. The bigger issue however is trying to juggle all the shooting dates, locations. Like in Iceland they only had like 5 hours of shooting time each day or something to that effect etc.. I’m not trying to make excuses for D&D but I feel they just need to hire more staff and delegate more. Micro managing every aspect of the show, while “writing” as well is really starting to show on screen.

I strongly feel they should hire more dedicated writers (as in those familiar with the source and not those that cram the 5 books in a weekend like the newest female writer did) and just oversee the production, or delegate the production and focus on the writing.

Call me an optimist but I think Season 3 is when we’ll see some really great TV showing. Everyone will have gained 2 season under their belt, we can only assume HBO will be more accommodating to another increase in budget. Adapting book 3 in 20+ episodes will make the transition much smoother, who knows maybe we’ll have more “focused” episodes with such lengths. So yeah let’s chill out on D&D as well as E&L, cause everyone’s input will be needed to transcend this show into true greatness.

I just can’t wait for season 3… hope WiC does daily updates on casting, otherwise we’ll go insane! In the words of senator Clay Davis: ” you crawl, walk and then run”. Now if only D&D can find those golden eggs…

Everyone appreciates the hard work the production is doing and the vivid way the books are being brought to life. Everyone who is still watching, that is. Defending the show-runners against valid criticism doesn’t help them or the show however. When people are being critical they are arguing for improving the show. And if there’s something to hand that is better and that can be seen by everyone then why not point it out?

The urge to insist on some things being in the show because of the meaning they hold in the books should be more understandable when you remember that this isn’t the BBC’s 20th production of Pride and Prejudice. This is it, this will be the only show made of A Song of Ice and Fire. Naturally fans of the books want it to be all it can be, and should be. There is much that the show can’t do, but there is much they could do but made other choices. Some of those choices were better, but some of them were worse.

Being critical, if the show-runners are open to the feedback, can help them get some things back on track as best they can.

>Everyone who is still watching, that is. Defending the show-runners against valid criticism doesn’t help them or the show however

There it is again-“valid” for whom? There is no objective standard to measure any art against. I think most of the criticism leveled against the show is ridiculous, but then I also don’t expect (or want) to have any say in how the makers of the show do their jobs. If you don’t like something or want something changed-fine. Post about it all you like. Just don’t assume that your subjective opinion is either universally shared, or actually an objective fact.

I’ve gotta say, the twitter recaps are my favorite recap/review for the episodes every week. If there’s one Game of Thrones recap to read, it’s definitely this one. Now I’ve just got to wait for the Curtain Calls and the last two episodes of the Game of Thrones Parody, and then it’s time to fully invest myself into the Season 3 speculation…
I also learned something new today. I always thought the seagulls in Finding Nemo said “Mate”, but apparently I was wrong.

It’s a case of HBO not trusting their audience. Being edgy and risque on The Wire and the Sopranos is one thing because the budgets for those shows are amillion times smaller than GoT.But on a show like GoT where quality of the production means millions of extra dollars being siphoned puts them on a kind of tightrope. I don’t envy the producers or the writers.

To have been a masterpiece ala The Wire, GoT would have to been funded by a gazillionaire fan who had so much money that he didn’t care about potentially losing the several demographics that watch the series. HBO has a formula: swearing, violence and sex/nudity are abound in all those shows but it’s the series that are ambitious in story that do not require a budget to sustain them that are the ones that survive. HBO feels that GoT must stick with that tried and true formula and weave the essence of Martin’s storyline in there. Making alterations the story for reasons that probably make sense to them and not us, ensuring the sex nudity quota is filled, making sure that the acting and production design is sound, making sure that the fantasy elements are restrained in some capacity, and for those people who are unable to follow the complexity of the story without losing interest in the narrative momentum…ham-fisting dialogue and story. Which is why season 1 is so much subtler in comparison: limitation of budget and therefore a stronger reliance on narrative and characters to sell it. Once they were given a larger budget with multiple location shooting, they seemed to have befuddled as to how to make it all work. I have said it before and I will say it again, Game of Thrones due to HBO’s bottom line requirements and agenda that it must try to satisfy all demographics in order to keep up it’s quality could never have been a masterpiece.

But it’s still a darn good adaptation considering everything else.

I fail to see how the lack of the visions, as they were in A Clash of Kings, somehow de-values Game of Thrones to the point where it simply isn’t possible to be a “masterpiece”. The Wire wasn’t considered a masterpiece until the series had ended, basically. While it was airing, the few of us who were and had been watching from the first season would actually get into debates not dissimilar from many that we have here (except GoT obviously has source material while The Wire doesn’t).

I don’t want to get too deep into this, but suffice it to say that at the end of their second seasons, neither The Wire nor The Sopranos were considered masterpieces, and your assessment that HBO must not trust their audience… Give me a break. This is as dense a show as there has ever been, and just because you’re able to follow along with no trouble because of your knowledge of the books doesn’t mean that the general audience is able to quite so easily. If anything, even with things being omitted and altered and simplified, it’s still one of the most complicated shows on television. Does that make the show less “edgy” or “risqué”, because it isn’t as complicated the novels (or convoluted, as some would say)? Your whole post there strikes me as one that simply isn’t willing to concede to the fact that this show can become a “masterpiece” without strictly adhering to the source material, which is odd because I’ve seen you say just the opposite before.

What concessions have been made that are there solely to make this show more palatable to “all demographics”? Why would a “gazillionaire” have to involve himself in order for this story to be told ‘the right way’? How have the narrative and the characters been side-lined in comparison to the first season? I’m just not seeing how any of these things are currently issues that degrade the quality of the show, as D&D are only two seasons in to a much larger story.

I’ll leave this on an example: Many fans seem to be upset that Arya isn’t as ruthless as she was in her storyline in the second novel (i.e. Arya hasn’t out-and-out murdered anyone yet), but for what dramatic reason would they make that turn in the character when it can be held off until she meets a certain character at a certain inn? Same with Jon, in my eyes. Why show Jon as this wise character, who makes (mostly) the right decisions in a world he knows basically nothing about when that journey can he shown to happen over time. The lack of an internal monologue dictates that these things have to be shown visually; the growth, maturation, and realizations that Jon learns in the wildlings’ camp will undoubtedly be a part of the growth of that character.

I’m not saying people are wrong to have complaints, as I have my own, but I see a lot of complaints being leveled against the show that are being done with three additional books worth of knowledge about the characters, the storyline, and the histories of Westeros/Essos at their disposal. Sure, we know what happens with certain characters going forward, and yet we judge them as they are now by how we know them to be (the debacle over Jaime’s decision to kill Alton Lannister being a prime example; in the second episode of the series, while speaking about Bran being crippled but alive, Jaime tells Tyrion that he’d take a clean death any day over that kind of life, which lays the foundation for his pseudo-suicidal escape from Robb’s camp).

I personally believe that D&D are a lot more clever than people give them credit for, and since they basically live and breathe these characters and their stories year-round to bring this show to life, I also don’t believe that they go around making changes all willy-nilly just for the sake of doing so. I’ve definitely gone on a bit of a tangent, but I basically fundamentally disagree with your idea that Game of Thrones can never become a masterpiece because HBO panders to the lowest common denominator in order to appease all demographics. In fact, I’d say that’s just wrong. Time will tell, of course, but I distinctly remember the ground-work having been set after season two of The Wire had ended, although at the time I was thinking that David Simon really needed to do something to bring it all together… And, well, we all know how that turned out (and if you don’t, stop reading this overly long post and start watching The Wire).

I’m a reader, but not a purist. I can perfectly see why some things are best changed if you change the medium. Thus, removing Roose from Harrenhal and setting up Arya/Tywin was a simplification and a triumph. As much as I am a fan of Ramsay, I can see that the convoluted identity swap Ramsey/Reek storyline was always going to be very hard to do well. Similarly the HOTU scene from the books, which on my first read I just found inaccessible and annoying, was always going to be difficult to translate to the screen with clarity.

So I find rants like Linda’s from Westeros unhelpful.

In addition, as far as HOTU is concerned, the showrunners have been very clear in their published interviews for a long time that they weren’t going to be taking the flashback route in the show. So why should anyone be surprised that HOTU didn’t contain any? A rant like this just seems to be head in the sand denial.

-oOo-

What I do find harder to understand, is why some of the books scenes, that would clearly have made brilliant TV exactly as they were, were changed. Arya’s escape from Harrenhal would be one example and the John/Qhorin arc would be another. Adaptation is surely about deciding what to leave out, what to keep in and if it’s in whether it needs to be changed or not, and lastly what to add.

GoT’s a great great show; but when they’ve kept stuff from the books in the adaptation, there are times when they’ve changed more than they needed to. It’s a minor criticism, it (mostly) doesn’t detract at all from my enjoyment of the show, and it’s all that needs to be said. Some of the more trenchant criticism smacks of people getting on their high horse just because this or that favourite bit of theirs has been changed. It’s a selfish line to take and does a disservice to the vast majority of us, especially when the ranters, in their arrogance, purport to speak for us all.

Thank you for your reply Pastor. I love this series, really I do but I thought The Wire as a masterpiece by the end of the first season. I think Breaking Bad, Mad Men and Deadwood are infinitely better than GoT. I have my issues on what is keeping the quality of the show down and I am sorry to say but sometimes they go for the lowest common denominator when it comes to use of violence and nudity for the sheer sake of it. If you disagree that’s fine, but I stand by my convictions as cynical as they are is that if D and D were not afraid to bring about the fantastical elements of the series (ie: prophecies), if they tried not to cater to each demographic, the series would be outstanding. The question is would it have lasted as long as it has? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Many non-viewers who gnashed their teeth after the departure of dear old Ned persevered and many are still here if the ratings are anything to go by. But in my opinion because they have to insert and change certain elements for the sake of satisfying these targeted audiences or at least believing that they must satisfy them, the show becomes just shy of greatness for me.

I confess when it comes to the viewing television public, I have no faith in them whatsoever. People watch reality TV garbage all day and Two and Half Men and CSI Miami or whatever yet quality series like Fringe, Firefly, Community, Arrested Development, The Wire etc. get zero love. This is my personal opinion on this matter and I cannot be budged from it. The mainstream television public watches mostly crap.

A girl will miss a man until I can find him on IMDB and see what he’s doing next.

Just a thought about the ongoing battle between purists and the rest of us….When I started watching GOT last year, after the first episode, I bought the books. Never read a fantasy book in my life. Finished all 5 one right after the other. Took a break for a few months, then in March I got the audios from the library and listened to ACOK and am in the middle of FOC – so I damned well know the story…and I LOVE it – obviously. Probably bordering on obsessed with it these past few months.! But I also like that the show is mixing it up a bit – I know what the books say – nothing can take away from that, but I like being surprised once in a while. My God, could we really have asked for a better cast? These actors, headed by the most awesome Peter Dinklage are incredible! Just enjoy it!

I’ll do a deal with you. Once I’ve raised enough money for the Iron Throne replica, I’ll let you guys sit on it.

@HEELSherrod: Oh God, I can stop paying attention now, Ros is on the screen, this bitch makes my face hurt..

Imagine how I felt. When I was told I one of my customers was going to be a spidery man, I was hoping it’d be Peter Parker. Unfortunate!

Once again, thank you for featuring me. It’s been a fun season of tweeting. I’ll miss these recaps and your help in my pursuit of world domination. When I get the Iron Throne, I’ll remember you were my fans first.
With love and lemon cakes. x

Yes to be clear I was talking about the review link posted on the recap round-up.
I just read the link you posted, and no I don’t agree with the statements made there.

As I said I don’t mind changes being made when it enhances the story onscreen i.e. cersei in season two has been spectacular and much more enjoyable and layered portrayal. theon’s story as well was changed for the better.

So if they had kept the prophecies from the HotU, and toned down the violence and nudity to a level that you find less pandering (although your continued talk of demographics continues to confuse me) the show could/would be great? I’m not trying to change your opinion, and honestly, we share many favorite shows (although of those you listed, I’d put only Deadwood and Breaking Bad above Game of Thrones, for the time being), but from everything I’ve read it seems that the main thing holding the show back from being great for many people here is the source material itself, which I don’t find fair but I do understand. But really, who are these target audiences you continue to mention? What pandering is really being done? If it’s so easy to accept that a whore can become a character in Deadwood, despite the ever-present nudity in the Gem Saloon, how is it so different for Game of Thrones? Because Ros wasn’t in the novels, and thus, feels extraneous to you would be my guess. I just don’t find that the criticisms regarding the adaptation are as interesting or relevant as analyzing the content of the show as an entity unto itself, but I do understand the difficulty many have in doing so.

Talking about entitlement: ¿Uploaded so soon? Damn, you don´t understand, now I have nothing to read tonight at the bus station!. Although, the battles that are happening here these last few days are pretty funny too.

I don´t tweet but I would do it only to flatter Varys/Conleth Hill. And Stannis/S. Dillane. I like Ygrittethewild, btw and…

“@Paco_ICEandFIRE: OMG BRIENNE, TAKE THAT GUYS HEAD OFF!!! HE HAS NEDS WIG ON!! HERESY!!!!” :)

Drfunk: I strongly feel they should hire more dedicated writers (as in those familiar with the source and not those that cram the 5 books in a weekend like the newest female writer did)

Is this what really happened or are you speculating?

In general I agree about hiring writers who are dedicated book readers. If anything, I hope that in the writer’s room they are having vigorous debates about character motives. I believe that in some cases, Benioff and Weiss are writing characters with their own personal opinions in mind. For example, Weiss said in an interview that he thought Stannis would make a terrible king. That kind of opinion belongs in an intellectual debate, not in the show’s scripts. They also seem to think Jon Snow is an idiot and Tyrion is a hero whom people hate for being snarky (not for being a dwarf). IMO, the only characters they really seem to understand and/or write ambiguously are Theon, Brienne, and perhaps Sansa.

I think dissenting views that challenge established opinions would bring richer character interpretations (Show Stannis needs this so badly!) However, Taylor and Cogman don’t seem to be in positions where they can challenge D&D in any respect. I’m sure in show biz it’s difficult to tell your bosses that they’re wrong. But it’s something that I hope they are able to do and D&D actually listen to them. I know that my opinions of characters and events have changed drastically after reading the forums, and I consider that a good thing.

Not really related, but one factor why Deadwood was so excellent was because they had the most female writers out of any HBO production. The female characters in Deadwood were written SO FREAKING WELL.

Varamyr Fourskins: To the purists: GRRM is executive producer. He has stated in interviews that D&D run all changes by him first to see if they will create a butterfly effect down the road; meaning, GRRM has signed off on everything that has been changed so far (or so he claims).

There might be confusion here about whether he actually approves all changes, because Elio at Westeros says that he doesn’t.

Hear Me Roar: Matt S, Maybe my reply would fit better in another post, but I actually think that Elio does not deserve that – the analysis he writes each week tries to be balanced and fair. Sure, he’s much more on the purist side of the spectrum than I am, but his review is measured, things are kept in proportion and perspective. What any other Westeros editor or forum member might think or express or advocate or write, and in what tone and manner, is a completlely different matter (even radically different at times), just talking about Elio’s weekly analysis. I find myself mostly agreeing with his points, the weakest parts are those that I find problematic myself as well, it’s just that the issues that exist are much much less devastating overall for me.

it seems that the main thing holding the show back from being great for many people here is the source material itself, which I don’t find fair but I do understand

This. And I’m one of those rare people who thinks ACOK is actually the most cohesive book in the series.

But yeah. It’s sort of like – what if The Wire had two more storylines, featuring characters completely disconnected from the main plot, one taking place in Montreal and the other in Venezuela. That were utterly essential to the show’s fifth season, but without knowing that seemed pretty disposable.

Skipjack:
Guys, I hate to get on a soapbox myself but it’s not the warlocks that saw the future it’s that Danaerys drank the Shade of the Evening herself then saw visions in the rooms of the House of the Undying that were related to her.Not that warlock magic put visions in her head, like the show had.

this.

anyway, I liked a lot the TV version of THotU. Khal fuggin Drogo, bitches!

@heyjulieann: Man, the sex they’re gonna have later is gonna be awesome.

franny_bee: So glad I am not alone in the anti Robb/Talisa camp. They’re just not right. Unsure if I was hoping for the book story, or if I just don’t like my awesome Ned Stark’s son acting so selfishly/boorishly, or if it’s HER I don’t like. She feels a little like a stock character to me.

My wife watched the final episode with me last night after barely having seen any of the series. Liked most of it, loved the final scene, but the only negative comment was after Robb’s wedding, “That scene was stupid.” Yes hon, yes it was.

Excellent post. And I only caught up with The Wire a couple years ago, and I can imagine that after the 2nd season viewers might be saying “What the hey?” Which was then followed by, IMO, the best two seasons of them all that helped give the 2nd more cohesion and power….

I think your HOTU analysis is exactly right in what D & D were trying to get across. And it does work very well visually and felt right for the TV show.

That said, the idea that the visions were” just traps/inducments to stay” does have some holes. First Dany has never seen either place and the visions could accomplish the same purpose – refute the iron throne and stay at HOTU with ghost Drogo – by showing something she has seen before. I.e. why show the wall instead of a hut in the dortharki sea? or why show the Iron Throne covered in snow in a burned out/abandonded Red Keep instead of the same place filled with westori elite shouting about her mad father buring Ned’s dad and brother? I think the visions were clearly meant to convey some sense of prophecy beyond just being Pree’s way to keep her there.

And if they were willing to do that – why not show Rhaegar, ideally as kit harrington in make-up , or any of the other book prophecy. That is why the HOTU fell flat for me – coupled with the burning being limited to just a single Pree

And if they were willing to do that – why not show Rhaegar, ideally as kit harrington in make-up , or any of the other book prophecy. That is why the HOTU fell flat for me – coupled with the burning being limited to just a single Pree

that’d be like the one of the major spoilers TV would ever show. no way they’d do that

This book has made me wonder if GoT could potentially reach the Wire’s level by exploring how the game strategically ghettoizes an “unwanted” segment of society for the benefit of the powerful.

I’m talking about how the Wire forced viewers to contend with the TRUTH that America “just doesn’t care” about the poor. This elevates the Wire to masterpiece level, IMO.

Martin made it abundantly clear that medieval honor was always a farce–but what is lacking in the show and the books is a “man on the street” view from the bottom. The focus on only one layer of society (the nobles) results in a belief that the game between Houses is only important insofar as it affects the fates of its family members, and no one else.

Of course the Wire is so much more than just a game between the political elite. The game works at all levels, even among the “peasants” (who are indeed peasants in the truest sense of the word).

This is why I think GoT doesn’t yet reach the level of the other great HBO shows. Seemingly uninterested in exploring any profound parallels to our own world, GoT is just a soap opera–compulsively watchable but also easy to digest. Is this how the books come across as well? I’m not sure; I’ll have to think about that more in my reread of ADWD.

So far the best thing Thrones has going for it is “crack addiction” format (gotta know what happens next!!) But Thrones is not really making larger statements about the human condition or “how we live together.” That lack of seriousness is what’s holding the show back from greatness, IMO.

Do you feel like D&D referenced that by having Dany walk out of the tunnel to the North side of the Wall? Because that’s definitely not something that happened in the House of the Undying in the books. (Unless I’m totally forgetting something, which I’m sure I could be.)

For the record, the “eat sheit” was tongue-in-cheek, as 90% of the Twitter posts are. I don’t actually want someone to chew dung, just like I don’t actually want Charles Dance to be glued to a horse. (…well…)

But I can see how someone might take offense.

(I just don’t care if someone takes offense. Words are wind.)

I don’t hate Elio and Linda. Winter-Is-Coming sprung up from the Westeros boards. I look on them as stern parents that I moved away from years ago. “I have my own life now, mom and dad.”

I feel sorry for them. This show is brilliant; Emmy-nominated in just its first season, with one of its iconic characters walking off with an Emmy and a Golden Globe win. It’s one of the best television shows ever, and there’s something in their brains that prohibits them from enjoying what should be the greatest televised treat they’ve ever experienced.

You kind of want mom and dad to be happy. But when they’re obstinate about crap for stupid reasons, you just shake your head. Can’t force it, and no matter how much logic you rail at them, you already know they’re not going to budge.

HoTU was never going to be an easy adaptation. If they were going literal they probably would have had to cast specifically for that scene, eschew live action all together and go with animation or puppets, or make scenes like the Red Wedding or the identity of the woman 100% obvious. And they still would have had a ten minute acid trip in the middle of the episode with little coherence. So they decided to scrap it entirely and start from scratch, and that is a logical approach.

So what did we end up with? A sequence that was hauntingly beautiful and heartwarming. Something that hammered home to Dany that Winter Is Coming. One that required her to turn her back on both the throne and her sun and stars to focus on the here an now and her children. One that suggested ruination for Westeros, with the throne room burnt and the snows falling. One that combined existing sets in a very surreal manner. And an emotionally wrenching reunion. It was a great scene. The biggest knock against it is that it wasn’t the book scene. And that is not taking the show as a show. Now, I have agreed with some other critiques on book changes (Robb/Talisa works out like a bad harlequin, Dany is having too many Viserys monologues, Ros is a prop with breasts that doesn’t have deep characterization ect) but these are critiques that non-readers can also arrive at, indicating that they are indeed show problems. If a critique must reference the book to show what is wrong that is purism that I am not interested in. If the book HoTU did not exist, the show HoTU would not attract the same scorn.

No, that really isn’t in the books, your memory is working just fine! It’s a reference to something, yes, but I’m not sure of what exactly (I guess that’s the point haha). Maybe the hut amidst the storm just means “protection” (but I don’t think so); maybe it’s what you said; maybe the door opening to the North of the Wall is just a continuity from the snow (I’m not entirely sure if it was snow or ash falling, but I guess it’s snow) inside the destroyed Throne Room, meaning that Winter truly came, and all the “evil” with it…

I do hope to see the prophecies somewhere in Season3, but I have no problem with what we saw on TV THotU.

I believe he’s referring to Vanessa Taylor. Although I don’t recall her making that comment, it wouldn’t surprise me. Fans drastically overestimate the level of knowledge and commitment TV writers bring to their assignments. It’s the thankless task of someone like Bryan C. (as story editor) to make sure no major gaff slips in, but I don’t think it’s completely coincidence that the jumped-up “Talisa” appears in the episodes of a new writer. It’s happened elsewhere (cough cough guess where).

On the Show that Will Remain Nameless, fans can tell exactly who writes each episode by the way the heroine is portrayed (sensitive, foul-mouthed, schizophrenic, etc.)—-and therefore refer to her by the writer’s name: “X’s X,” “Y’s X,” “Z’s X.” She’s four different characters.

I think the throne room scene is just phenomenally beautiful. In addition to the much noted destruction and snow, I loved watching Daenerys take in the sight of the throne she’s never seen but has been rambling about all season. It brings home the idea that she might win it but in a destroyed and winterised Westeros, it ends up being just a chair. (A $30,000 dollar chair!)

Interesting thoughts. I see the central theme of the Wire somewhat differently – it seems to me a show about how people are mostly good at heart, yet the institutions we create fail us continually. The poor/marginalized are failed the most, of course, but everyone else – kids, cops, drug dealers, & all the rest – are poorly served as well. That said I haven’t finished the show, so maybe I’ll change my mind by the end.

ASOIAF/GoT is much more about war – about how it dehumanizes us, and leads to false notions of good vs evil, and ultimately renders us vulnerable to ultimate destruction. It’s a clear response to the tendency of fantasy novelists since Tolkien to present war as the responsibility of pure evil, rather than of people with limited rationality and mixed morals. But for all that it’s not exactly anti-war – the glories of war, and challenges of honor, are also of marked importance in the series.

Finally, while there may not be as direct a concern with the underclass in the series (though characters such as Davos may indicate otherwise), I’d argue that the viewpoints of marginalized people are both well-represented and of great moral importance in the series – starting with Tyrion’s famous line about “cripples, bastards, and broken things.” It’s not a coincidence that as the series has gone on, nearly every major protagonist has been scarred, crippled, or otherwise broken in some major way. Nor that a large share of the most central characters are women – definitely a marginalized group in Westeros!

All that said – for me, the value of art is not in themes. It’s in life – how fully-lived and real the world the artist presents is, whatever the genre. ASOIAF and the Wire are both tremendous successes on that front. GoT is not quite on the same level – while often amazing, much of it can feel artificial and stagey. But it gets there at least some of the time.

I think there’s a big misconception in book fans’ minds that we are the majority of the audience watching the show, and so if we have an issue with something, or if we find a change from the book to be controversial, then obviously everyone else watching the show must feel the same way. However, the reality is much different. In reality, we are a drop in the bucket of the overall audience, and most of the things that book purists shake their fists and gnash their teeth at, the rest of the audience doesn’t give two flips about.

No one that hasn’t read the books cares one way or the other about Ros. No one that hasn’t read the books was complaining about straight Daxos, extended Qarth scenes or stolen dragons. None of them are raging and “beyond depressed” at the HotU sequence. Certainly, none of them shed any tears over a missing peach. The only thing I’ve really seen non-book-readers and purists agree on is the admittedly lukewarm Robb/Talisa story and maybe a bratty Dany.

The idea that season 2 has been controversial or up-and-down is honestly a bit overly dramatic. This season has been IGN’s most consistently highly rated show all year. If you want to see a controversial, up-and-down season of a show, go check out some reviews of last year’s Dexter, or even Boardwalk Empire. When Game of Thrones starts getting those kind of reviews, THEN I will start paying attention to the Linda’s of the world.

It’s the ardent and knowledgeable fans who see the problems long before the casual viewer or even the typical critic. Remember the tepid 79 Metacritics GoT received from the U.S. print critics (supposedly the most perspicacious of the group)—as opposed to Downton Abbey’s perfect l00? The committed fandom saw from Episode 1 that the show was going to be a popular and critical hit.

The show is two seasons in to a much larger story. Much of the impact that comes from a show like The Wire or a show like Deadwood is a result of what happened previously being brought full-circle at the end. Game of Thrones is most certainly planting the seeds for both the questions and the answers, and to discount it so early in the game (pun somewhat intended) feels like a disservice to the long-game story-telling approach that the show has undertaken. I disagree that it hasn’t asked us to analyze any deeper themes wholeheartedly (the nature of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ people; the nature of power and what it means to wield it, whether you have too much or too little; etc.). I don’t want to get too far into it, but just because this show has dragons and zombies, and all manner of fantastic elements doesn’t mean that it doesn’t (or can’t) speak to people on themes much larger than the conflict between the Lannisters’ and the Starks’. It just isn’t as readily apparent when there is so much going on with the plot and with the characters (which, I’d argue, is a theme of the show in and of itself). Real life is often like a soap opera, and those things that seem so inconsequential and/or unimportant can completely and utterly blindside you on “some idle Tuesday” as a result of our own selfishness in the face of a much, much larger whole.

It’s the ardent and knowledgeable fans who see the problems long before the casual viewer or even the typical critic.

That would be a lot more convincing if the same people were not so very uncritical towards the last two novels.

PS – thanks for the laugh with the reminder about Downton Abbey’s insanely positive reviews. I love that show and all, but it is a mess – and while the second season showed a clear decline, the problems were evident from S1.

I’m a book reader myself, yet I find the comments made by many of the ‘purists’ to be incredibly insulting to the show and the people who make it. As I said I haven’t read their reviews so I’ll take your word that their reviews are balanced and leave them out of any harsh comments but I find the whole ‘complaining about a TV show’ by other book purists such as some commenters on this site detrimental. I fear all this negativity from book fans is just going to end up discouraging David and Dan and having the show end prematurely.

A woman agrees. It is one thing to comment on things that you would have liked to have seen, and another to totally trash the show. GoT the Show is still a beautifully done show with all the MAIN elements of the books and some of the minor ones included. IMO, some viewers have not really stopped to think about how difficult it is to take a book that has so much internal dialogue and turn it into a good TV show. Yes, there are things I wish they had included from the books, but the show is SO GOOD that I still love it. Perhaps some of the purists would be better off not watching if it gets them soooooo upset.

Meg: This book has made me wonder if GoT could potentially reach the Wire’s level by exploring how the game strategically ghettoizes an “unwanted” segment of society for the benefit of the powerful.

I’m talking about how the Wire forced viewers to contend with the TRUTH that America “just doesn’t care” about the poor. This elevates the Wire to masterpiece level, IMO.

Martin made it abundantly clear that medieval honor was always a farce–but what is lacking in the show and the books is a “man on the street” view from the bottom. The focus on only one layer of society (the nobles) results in a belief that the game between Houses is only important insofar as it affects the fates of its family members, and no one else.

I do think we already got some glimpses from the ‘man of the street’ perspective this season with the Harrenhal-tortures, the Shae/Sansa talk and the three ladies hanged by Starks. The Brienne-AFFC storyline is one of the most beautifully written pieces in the books because we get to see the other side of the war, the same goes for the Arya-ASOS storyline. I really hope we get to see more of this stuff because I agree with you that this perspective can elevate the show to a higher level. Let’s hope we get the Septon Meribald speech in one of the upcoming seasons.

I can’t decide if I want this to be a gimmick poster or actually be her.
“we have something in our brains”?
“your kind”?
Priceless.

To Linda I respond thus:

“The fact that you can string words together into a few paragraphs does not make you any less of a troll. Do you not realize how incredibly stupid it makes you look to claim that a screenwriter has any obligation to his viewers? I am so glad that you and your friends are upset enough about the changes in the show that you spend this much time posting about it. In fact, part of me will be a little sad if the next season becomes more faithful because that means you won’t be quite so frustrated any longer (and I love thinking of how frustrated you must be), but the thought that you will undoubtedly start whining like little babies about the next season not being faithful is very entertaining.

Really, go back home to your parents and have them explain to you again that entitlement issues aren’t pretty in anyone over 5. Your comment has been described (by me) as abusive.”

I have nothing against Elio either, except that he could maybe try to rein Linda in a little more.
For years they have been the face of ASOIAF fandom (and for years i have been lurking on their site), and since the start of S2 i’m starting to really wish that it could change soon.
I won’t even talk about the necessity to take a step back and trying to analize an adaptation on it’s own instead of dumbly thinking that a word for word translation would give us a better result.
As long as Linda writes articles like a temper tantrum throwing baby, it will look bad on the whole fandom (at least the whole book-readers fandom part) because a lot of non-book readers associates Westeros with the opinion of the majority of ASOIAF fans.
So nothing against Elio, but as it is, i’ll like it a lot more if another book-site (TOTH?) could become the reference for books fans and, more importantly, the spokesman of the fandom (i’ll take Hodor or Ilyn Payne as spokesman over Linda any day).

If Linda Antonsson and Larry Williams are representing the face of GoT fandom (Old and New)….

I don’t want to start a fight either. But that old quote I was trolling is just so magnificently vitriolic and sadistic while being devoid of logical content I just had to share. Westeros is a lovely site for discussing the books, but if you want to offer a critique, your post will be very quickly deleted and your IP will be banned from the forum. No debate.

I know. But this just isn’t one of those topics where anyone can go “HA, I’M RIGHT, YOU’RE WRONG!” We’re all purists to one degree or another. It’s just the low-end purists often clash with the high-end purists, and really it all just boils down to what makes someone hate the show enough to actually stop watching.

For the wrong reasons, I mean. (“Wrong” in my view.)

If a person hates a show because it has too much sex, nudity, or violence, then … hey, that’s a clash of mores, and I can respect their decision to stop watching. I don’t agree with them, but I’m not out to change anyone’s moral outlook.

But if they hate the show simply because it’s not adhering to the books in ways they personally desire, I find that much harder to grasp. I want to shake them and say, “See the glass half full, at least!”

Fire And Blood: Let’s not have this devolve into a WiC vs. Westeros thing. We have shared likes, and we have things we do not agree on. Let’s keep everything civil.(And I’m not saying it hasn’t been. It has been so far. I’m just saying.)Debate is fine. Let’s debate!

Ours is the Fury: I’m amused by the idea that Elio should be holding Linda back somehow. Because you know, it’s up to the man to rein in the little woman.(And this is where I wish it were easier to have gifs at WiC. Because I’d have a few good ones for that suggestion.)There are so many cool ASOIAF/GoT communities out there. If one doesn’t work for you, find another. No need for wars.

If Elio was acting like this much of a doofus I’m pretty sure people might suggest as his partner she rein him in too, don’t think it’s necessarily a gender issue.

Was I disappointed by the lack of Rhaegar? Yea i was but I was more upset about the lack of a certain squire :p. not a book purist but was just looking forward to those scenes. I jumped up for joy when I saw White Walkers. Another stellar episode. 2 bad westeros.org cannot tell the difference between a book and an adaptation. I’m guessing they r the type that *itched when Tom Bombadil was cut from The Fellowship of the Ring movie

I like Larry! He loved episodes 9 and 10 of this season. I wish I was a new viewer! It must be great seeing this stuff for the first time

I used to like Larry….. that bloom faded from the rose pretty quickly. Especially when he used his entire recap/reviews to flame people who criticized him. Bad form all around. Just like Linda… the best thing to do when confronted with “trolls” (their term) on the internet is to ignore them….

and if you, yourself, can’t take criticism then maybe you should not be a critic.

I think there’s quite a difference between criticizing a TV show and criticizing a real person. So no, I don’t expect critics to have to happily accept personal insults and criticisms in that sense. If someone wants to debate their opinions and insights about the TV show or movie, then by all means, go for it.

Well, maybe we could debate whether Deadwood S1-2 and the Wire S1-2 by themselves are more compelling stories than GoT S1-2. I think that might get a bit too tedious on a Twitter post, though.

Game of Thrones is most certainly planting the seeds for both the questions and the answers, and to discount it so early in the game (pun somewhat intended) feels like a disservice to the long-game story-telling approach that the show has undertaken.

Will it blossom into a show like the Wire? I hope so! I’m not discounting it early, I’m just saying at this point – not the same level. Milch and Simon =/= Benioff and Weiss (yet)

I disagree that it hasn’t asked us to analyze any deeper themes wholeheartedly (the nature of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ people; the nature of power and what it means to wield it, whether you have too much or too little; etc.)

But these are quite mundane themes for an HBO show, especially a show in the “post-golden age” of the network. Themes about the nature of power are explored within a larger theme of how a community is built (Deadwood) and how a community is destroyed (The Wire). That’s why those shows are better, IMO.

I agree that deeper themes are apparent (especially in the books). But we should talk about how well-developed they are in the show. I think Nussbaum’s review convinced me that the they’re just paying overtures to these themes. For example, Maxwell James’ point about cripples and bastards is valid, but I would argue that so far in the show, we’ve seen very little remarks on social caste. Bran’s a cripple, Jon’s a bastard, Sam’s a fat guy (not so much a craven in the show), Tyrion’s a dwarf, but they aren’t subjected to a constant barrage of insults or roadblocks because of this. Have we felt Tyrion’s stature weighing as heavily on him as we do in the books? Not even in the slightest; it’s like they’re not even disadvantages in the show. That’s why I said that I think the writers understand Brienne more than anyone–the Stark men’s laughter was so important to this theme. But I’d argue that the themes are lightly touched on rather than fully explored.

That’s a lot of negativity so here’s a positive to close my post: their biggest accomplishment in S2 is creating a medieval battle without a clear good/evil side. It made me realize that the only reason I liked the battle of Helm’s Deep was because it was technically perfect–but it didn’t contribute anything new thematically about the way war is experienced. Blackwater took the good/bad structure and turned it on its head. I also think this theme is kind of meta: Blackwater is less about how “real people” experience war and more about how the audience experiences war on screen. They show is set up to play with audience expectations in a wholly new way. Which is interesting.

Ours is the Fury:
I think there’s quite a difference between criticizing a TV show and criticizing a real person. So no, I don’t expect critics to have to happily accept personal insults and criticisms in that sense. If someone wants to debate their opinions and insights about the TV show or movie, then by all means, go for it.

I like a lot of what you had to say, and while I agree that it could become a bit tedious to go on at too much length on the matter in this thread, I want to make one final statement regarding analyzing The Wire and Deadwood’s first two seasons against the first two of seasons of Game of Thrones – Game of Thrones has told a better story in those first two seasons than either of those shows, in my opinion. A television show shouldn’t always feel the need to push the agenda of their writers and/or put it above entertaining its audience. Deadwood is my favorite show ever, and I consider The Wire one of (if not the) best television shows of all time, so I don’t make that statement lightly. Those two shows are also set in the real world as we know it, allowing the writers to more concisely and easily integrate any themes they’d like in a much easier capacity. I think we’re roughly in the same book with this discussion, just not the same page. I wouldn’t put this show above these two (or Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, or Six Feet Under) YET, but I think I can see how it could be right there with them more easily than you might. Discussions like this make me wish we had a forum here, so we could dig in and really go in-depth, but for the time being I’ll leave it at that.

@SueThePirate: Any chance Jaqen will strip naked when he hands over the coin? No? FUCK YOU, HBO! (Peed my pants on this one! )

I so wish that we head a 30 minute show after every episode that is all about that episode like the Walking Dead has with the Talking Dead! That would be so epic! Oh well…I will miss this shit so much! Thanks for the laughs!

Fire And Blood: For the record, the “eat sheit” was tongue-in-cheek, as 90% of the Twitter posts are. I don’t actually want someone to chew dung, just like I don’t actually want Charles Dance to be glued to a horse. (…well…)But I can see how someone might take offense.(I just don’t care if someone takes offense. Words are wind.)I don’t hate Elio and Linda. Winter-Is-Coming sprung up from the Westeros boards. I look on them as stern parents that I moved away from years ago. “I have my own life now, mom and dad.” I feel sorry for them. This show is brilliant; Emmy-nominated in just its first season, with one of its iconic characters walking off with an Emmy and a Golden Globe win. It’s one of the best television shows ever, and there’s something in their brains that prohibits them from enjoying what should be the greatest televised treat they’ve ever experienced.You kind of want mom and dad to be happy. But when they’re obstinate about crap for stupid reasons, you just shake your head. Can’t force it, and no matter how much logic you rail at them, you already know they’re not going to budge. Alas, alas for them.

This post was perfect. They act like their favorite band they followed since the dive bar days has finally made it big and it hurts them to much inside to bear the worldwide fandom. I feel bad for them, its so much more fun when you love the books and the show :)

FaBio: On rewatching the episode, it became clear to me that prophetic visions were not within the power of the warlocks to give. Nothing in the two visions Dany had were particularly prophetic.

It’s all an illusion given by Pree—one that played on thoughts and memories straight from Dany’s mind. We didn’t see Rhaegar, or the wolf-headed corpse, or Elia of Dorne because those weren’t in Dany’s mind.

The throne room, cold, devastated… that was the warlocks’ way of saying, “This is what you seek? You don’t want this. Stay with us.”

Drogo and Rhaego… this was the warlocks’ way of saying “…And this is what we can give you. Your happy ending. Stay with us.”

She chose neither, ultimately, and the warlocks were forced to physically chain her in order to make her stay.

That’s what they wanted. That’s what they needed — her to stay with her dragons. My take on it was that they gave her the option to stay voluntarily — in an illusion of bliss. But, she’s too smart. They underestimated her. The fatal mistake of underestimating Dany is an ongoing theme.

Now, if you’re going to steal an idea, steal from the best. I’m not saying FaBio stole my thoughts. Ha Ha! I’m saying D&D stole from (or to put it more fairly, were inspired by) the master, Gene Roddenberry.

Their inspired adaptation was genius.

In the first season of Star Trek (the original series) episodes 11 and 12 were titled, The Menagerie. The Enterprise’s former captain, Pike (Jeffrey Hunter) had been paralyzed. Spock commandeers the Enterprise, against orders, and takes Pike to a forbidden planet, Talos IV — a world occupied by dangerous illusionists! In the end, it is revealed that Spock did this with the agreement of the Talosians so Pike could live out his life on their planet in an illusion in which he is not paralyzed.

The Talosians final message to Kirk was “Captain Pike has an illusion, and you have reality. May you find your way as pleasant.”

Varamyr Fourskins:
To the purists: GRRM is executive producer. He has stated in interviews that D&D run all changes by him first to see if they will create a butterfly effect down the road; meaning, GRRM has signed off on everything that has been changed so far (or so he claims).

Whoa, GRRM never claimed any such thing. You’ve must have misread what he said and exaggerated what he meant.

The Wandering Knight speaks!
Here’s the thing, In the House of the Undying, Rhaegar actually uses the phrase, “A song of Ice and Fire”. I can’t speak for everyone else but when I read that I thought, “This is really important! Re-read it and remember it! It’s going to be really important later on!” Then the show aired, she went in and……nada. As a book reader, yes I was disappointed. For me, this harkens back to the oldest argument on these threads: not enough time/money (A two hour season finale’ would have solved alot of these so called compression issues). SO…I was happy to hear that ASOS will be split into two seasons. True, the story will be spread out over more time, but the trade off is getting everything we as book readers hope to see. I also have a feeling Daenerys will start having visions next year..at least I hope so. I also hope for more twitter recaps. :-)

Can I just say I wish season 2 had have been less faithful to the books. And I’m not just saying they should’ve added more Davos.

If it was less faithful it might have silenced a few of the purists too.

I wish they’d have skipped Qarth. What would the dany story loose. Have her go through the waste straight to slavers bay. The show/story doesn’t need the prophecies, sure they’re cool for the readers but they don’t do anything for the characters in a visual medium.

With Quarth gone, bam the Dany story is suddenly awesome. Plus you can do slavers bay a little slower. It was rushed in the books.

Jon’s story was too faithful as well. Instead of drawing it out for half the season, throw him in with the wildlings straight after they reach the fist. We meet Mance earlier and its all WIN!

The only storyline they really changed up this season was Arya and it was BRILLIANT. Do you hear many critics about that? Weasel soup maybe vexed a few folk but Arya and Tywin was a big hit and it cut out the unnecessary complexity of the book version.

I often hold my tongue but here are my feelings/frustrations that I don’t believe have been shared as a whole:

1. Stop complaining about Jon and the Halfhand. I am utterly confused about the near universal hatred for the show’ treatment of this scene. Everything that was in the books has been portrayed. Halfhand is a minor character – he does not need a lot of screen time. In addition, I can’t stand the contention that non-book readers won’t understand Jon’s motive. Do you want everything spoon fed to you? Do you want the TV to think you’re stupid and tell you everything explicitly before you have a chance to think about it? I don’t. In addition, most every non-book reader I know figured the damn thing out. Have faith. I can’t stand it when tv shows pander to the LCD and I am shocked that people thought the show needed to make it more obvious than they did.

2. Bran and Rickon. This is similar to the above but seriously, they made no effort to make it seem that the boys were actually dead. While reading I read for a good long time before I knew the truth and I survived. I think the show would have done well to not pander to the masses and let the mystery go on. What REALLY bugged me was that after they made it abundantly clear that B&R were ok, they had that long scene where Osha had to actually state in no uncertain terms exactly what had happened (in the crypt). We got it. We don’t need someone to say it. It cheapens it and makes us feel like they think were dumb. Weird writing.

3. HOTU. leave it alone. the mystery about Jon is not a plot point in the show right now. It’s not even important in the books right now. The vision of the RW would be too obvious. Especially if they included Melisandre’s “leech” prophecy. I have no idea why people woul dleave the series due to those scenes.

4. Catelyn. Why did they make it so Catelyn’s motivation for releasing the Kingslayer did not include B&R? Why did they have Theon kill the ravens? I won’t make a big deal if they explain it donw the road but this actually does make a potential problem with Ramsey. If folks think B&R are alive, wy don’t they march north? It’s just kind of strange really.

5. Arya. she should have killed a guard and she could of the way they filmed it. Im wondering if there is something about their contract with such a young actress that prevented that from happening.

6. Stannis. Some folks complain about the strangling of Mel but really? He is a man of justice and just accused Mel of being responsible for killing thousands…and who is to say he was actually trying to kill her. sheesh what a weird one to complain about

7. Rob/Talisa – why did the producers change the story? the same thing could have played out with calling her Jeyne…maybe there is something more they are planning…methinks.

8. Tom Bombadil – seriously. why would you remove an entirely useless character from the story. Even the characters in the book agree he’s useless when it comes to the ring. He should show up in GoT just for fun.

that is all I have to complain about – some to the fans, some I guess I just have to wait to see if the show address’. Overall – I don’t give a shit. season 3 will be the best season of tv in history. reread the book and you will know. amazingness in every chapter.

Pastor_of_Muppets: Discussions like this make me wish we had a forum here, so we could dig in and really go in-depth, but for the time being I’ll leave it at that.

I agree. I think this site has come into its own. 1000+ blog posts makes the reading chaotic. A forum here for the show wouldn’t detract from what they’re doing over at Westeros (which isn’t much since I can never log in b/c of the server issues). It would be nice to chat with you guys without disrupting the flow of conversation. :)

There is a great interview with GRRM which was conducted after the First Season aired by Authors@Google in which he talks about how much control he has over the TV show. Which is…none. I’m paraphrasing, but he said he has no illusions, he understands how Hollywood works. They paid him a “truckload of cash” and he signed a pretty standard agreement (he does get to write one episode per season) in which he turned over control to HBO/D&D. He said they could have aliens come in to save the day and he would not be able to do anything about it. Having taken their money, he wouldn’t even consider that he would have a right to complain. He considers the books and the show to be two separate things. He also said that when you turn your work over to someone else, you just hope you’re lucky enough to find people you can place your trust in and he feels fortunate that D&D are fans who are interested in doing the saga justice and that they have consulted with him in an attempt to do so.

I think the overall tone of the show is different from the books, and the story line has to be chopped up and made more accessible for tv. However, I really enjoyed the episode. I was most looking forward to the HOTU, and although it wasn’t what we were expecting I thought that the visions were awesome. When Dany walks into the throne room and it is snowing that, to me, was a foreshadowing of the coming winter for her lands. Then she is taken to the Wall, and I just got this overwhelming feeling about how she is seeing her kingdoms for the first time. But there was purpose behind it because they are focusing on the threat from the north. The Drogo scenes were truly brilliant as well, with Jason getting his cameo, which is the most freaking badass thing ever.

On the contrary I don’t mind Ros at all. I will just say this, personally I believe there are imperfections in Game of Thrones, I believe that the nudity quota is being used in the wrong way, I believe that some of the writing and some of the dialogue comes off a little hamfisted and I believe that the every single network out there including HBO believes the average audience member is formless matter and that they believe it is up to them to shape them into the audiences that they want. That’s what I mean by demographic. I am talking about the demographic of Spike TV viewers who love Spartacus but don’t give a rat’s ass about the nuances that are in the series. The same people who call shows like The Wire and Mad Men soap operas, or plain “boring”. I am talking about the hardcore HBO viewers who don’t really care for fantasy but care about down to earth drama like Six Feet Under or the Sopranos and have a lot of trouble dealing with white walkers and sorceresses giving birth to smoke babies. Of audiences who would have a hard time accepting that Bran and Rickon were “killed”, of people in forums complaining about the sadism of episode 4. Of the Purists who cry bloody murder at the slight tweak of a character as they have projected in their own mind for over a decade now.

You don’t agree with me that’s fine, but D & D and HBO are trying to play this to many types of audiences and because of that it is successful, but David Simon never played The Wire (yes I use this show as an example whatever it’s the greatest series ever made IMHO) to audiences and look at it from start to finish, it’s a masterwork. But being filmed on a modest budget with a group of producers and writers that put their own money and careers into it, the Wire had it’s full run. If it had the budget of Game of Thrones it would have been diluted down to fit popular consumption. Man, I have no faith in audiences at all!

If D & D weren’t worried about keeping all of these audiences satiated then they would have followed the books a lot more faithfully outside the limits that budget, casting and other factors would allow. And if it had been done that way, it would have been only a season long and Linda and crew could be happy with their one faithful season and having it be cancelled before changes that could be made to make it more accessible to the mainstream public.

It is because of this “pandering”, that the show is still on the air. It’s not a masterpiece in my opinion, but it’s a damn good show overall.

Ours is the Fury:
I think there’s quite a difference between criticizing a TV show and criticizing a real person. So no, I don’t expect critics to have to happily accept personal insults and criticisms in that sense. If someone wants to debate their opinions and insights about the TV show or movie, then by all means, go for it.

I can only speak for myself (obviously) but I have never personally attacked either Linda or Larry. How could I? I know nothing about either one personally. But I have criticized their professional performances. Or lack of professionalism in what they do, I should say.

Varamyr Fourskins:
To the purists: GRRM is executive producer. He has stated in interviews that D&D run all changes by him first to see if they will create a butterfly effect down the road; meaning, GRRM has signed off on everything that has been changed so far (or so he claims).

Just have to point out that this is not true, and I’m surprised it’s still such a common misconception.

I’m fairly sure I remember reading a GRRM comment that prophecy, as used in stereotypical fantasy fiction, was one of the things he was explicitly trying to subvert as a concept. Basically, I understood him to be saying that prophecy never helps anyone – it is ambiguous and impossible to interpret until after the fact when you can finally fit the prophecy to circumstances and go “oh I see now”, but only when it is too late to be useful in decision making. More, that becoming obsessed with prophecy can lead to poor decision making on the part of protagonists – instead of assessing situations on their own merits, consideration of prophecy leads characters astray.

In that sense, it seems important to separate the importance of prophecy in ASoIaF to the characters, vs the imporance of prophecy to the readers of ASoIaF.

For the characters there are some specific cases where prophecy is obviously used as an important factor in determining motivation – Stannis with Melisandre; Dany with some of the more tractable bits of prophecy (“3 betrayals” etc); Cersei’s valonqar; Rhaegar perhaps. I think this is an interesting area – how does prophecy affect why characters are making their decisions – but it’s not crucial to the story. This sort of motivation is up there with superstition, religion, etc, where it may be difficult to portray the subtlety of it in the visual medium of the TV series.

For some readers, there is a lot of enjoyment in the mental games of trying to match the Rorschach tests of the prophecies as written with the unfolding story. The hypotheses about what it all means, and what twists can be guessed at based on the prophecies etc. I understand that pleasure, but it is entirely irrelevant to the adaptation, and it is one of the things that annoys me about such complaints. That joy, dare I say it nerdy joy, is not something that was ever going to work in a TV or film adaptation, and it is a selfishness on the part of the readers to insist that the prophecys they have pored over as part of reading the books must be transferred to the TV adaptation.

So, in my opinion, complaints about how the adaptation has watered down or changed the apparent motivations of characters is valid (why why why did they not let Robb and Catelyn know about the reported deaths of Bran and Rickon prior to their respective important decisions?), but complaints about lack of prophecy for its own sake is not valid.

I haven’t read the books, but I’ve been around the Internet enough to know a few details which are not included in the show (a curious cat, I am), and I saw a lot of backlash about the lack of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and the lack of blue flowers growing on the Wall. I would argue that those elements were there, albeit in a more symbolical way. I mean, how else do you explain that there is Snow falling on the Iron Throne (capitalization intended), or that Daenerys (the Fire, and the Targaryen line) is explicitly linked with the Wall (the Ice, and the Stark line)? The message is the same, only expressed differently for a new medium, leaving a margin of uncertainty for those who are new to the story.

On another note, I really did like the appearance of Drogo and Rhaego, as it gave Daenery the opportunity to say goodbye to them on her own terms, not because they were robbed from her by illness or dark magic. It was a great opportunity for her to gain closure and move forward with her heart at peace. And I do note that after that, she seemed much more balanced, and ready to take charge of her destiny, instead of listing, adrift, and waiting for others to come to her help.

I’m not a big of prophecies for the reasons people have mentioned. In particular, I dislike the one for Cersei because it alters what we know of her character and motivations, if they are acting on paranoid fear of a prophecy instead of their own free will and bad decisions not based on fear of death.

As for the HOTU we saw onscreen, I loved seeing the Wall as we did, even without a rose growing in it. I think it’s connected to Dany beyond the possible alliance with Jon down the road. We learn in the later books that there is magic in the Wall, not just big blocks of ice. Magic keeps out Coldhands and probably the Others. Maester Aemon is at the Wall too, and he is the oldest man in Westeros. No one knows why, but he is incredibly old and he starts dying once he leaves the Wall. I know the Wall predates the invasion of the Targaryens by a long shot, so they didn’t create the magic, but it’s still an interesting connection.

Joshua Taylor: It is because of this “pandering”, that the show is still on the air. It’s not a masterpiece in my opinion, but it’s a damn good show overall.

I agree with all of your points. I do hope that as, the audience for GOT is educated (and I don’t mean that condescendingly), D&D try to ask more of it, not simply give it what it’s come to expect, and by “asking more,” I mean adhering closer to the books in substantive ways.

That said, there’s been a ton of evidence that, despite not needing to do so, the showrunners, writing staff, and even the directors (per the Neil Marshall interview) have consulted him with some regular frequency.

The producers and Cogman at minimum at extraordinarily well versed in the book.

The idea of hiring someone not on writing skill but solely on how many times they’ve read the books over how many years (as opposed to say, reading them now) is somewhat ludicrous. D&D are overseeing everything and Cogman handles the details. Movies and Shows require a tremendous amount of delegation — if a slavish knowledge of the source material is required individually, your overall talent is going to drop.

The goal is a quality television show that is both entertaining and somewhat meaningful in order to draw an audience. The overarching goal is not fidelity to the books.

spacechampion:
Aren’t those iswintercoming crowd in fact the trolls known as the GRRMblers?Let’s not drink their anti-GRRM / anti-westeros cult kool-aid.

Hello, please allow me a moment. IWC was started some years ago by people who were banned from westeros.org for ‘dissenting opinion’. I was banned – I believe – for joking about the wait for ADWD. I’m not sure because I was never given a reason. Other people came from a blog set up aftef Martin posted that people should make their own sites for complaining. Maybe that sounds trollish, I don’t know. All of a sudden (after Martin got angry on his blog oh in 2009) people who questioned the process of ADWD had no place to hang out and so we set up our own little corner. Granted, naughty things…ok offensive.. things have been written and may yet be written but it’s in the spirit of freedom and fun, not censorship. We do have some moderation and a bunch of utterly normal forum boards so please come and have a look before judging the place. How about the 50+ page discussion on season two? You can find it in the A Song of Ice and Fire subforum. Welcome.

Joshua Taylor: It’s not a masterpiece in my opinion, but it’s a damn good show overall.

Because of language and lack of time (because for me one depends on the other) I can´t express my full opinion about this series but I agree with you on this. The only difference is that I don´t think about audiences or changes (although you´re probably right). Writing and directing were not the best for me (in most episodes). Some scenes just didn´t have the necessary drama. The only masterpiece here are the actors imo (that were even better in a couple of excellent scenes this season). Anyway, don´t have to be perfect. But yes, it´s a very good TV show.

While I’m disappointed certain elements from the book didn’t appear, it wouldn’t make sense within the show if they did. Pyat Pree wanted to persuade Dany to stay there- prophecies about her possible future (that aren’t ‘live happily here with your dragons’) wouldn’t exactly help his cause.

Aside- I thought it was ash on the throne, not snow. Either one could work.

I only like prophecy when it’s fallible. So I hope very much that not everything prophecised comes to pass. When the option of one or more of the prophets or prophecies actually being just craziness/bs is there, it’s much more interesting than everything that anyone predicted coming true (even if it comes true in a less than obvious way).

I hope that when we look back after the story is done, we’ll be able to say that prophet a had a genuine gift, prophet b was just pretending in order to cause trouble and prophet c was insane and utterly wrong, or similar. (Identities of any and all prophets entirely up in the air).

From a reader’s perspective the prophesies can be fun to try to predict the future of the series, but it never seems to impact the story significantly. The exceptions are to make Cersei and Dany paranoid. But they could have become paranoid for entirely different reasons. I expect in the show they will.

There’s nothing as miserable as a “purist” – seriously I had 5 long years of it during The Lord of the Rings” – the “purist” has to be the most selfish kind of fan – if it doesn’t match whatever is in their head then it’s not the real version – I find this incredibly selfish it’s like saying I can do a lot better than you. Tell you what – here’s a few chapters – lets see your version but then again I doubt you would lift a finger to actually do it. So let’s leave it to the people who have had the balls to adapt it and sweated tears and blood to bring it to the screen. You could also argue that the Purist wants every single word spoken in the book on to the screen. Sorry but I don’t really want to sit through 20 minutes of one scene and it’s not practical anyway. The magic word is “adaptation” you take a story and you weave your way of telling it onto the screen. You might miss things out, you may add in scenes which explain or link things better. Stuff that works on the page doesn’t necessarily work on a screen, something the purist needs to be constantly reminded of. Like The House of the Undying which on paper is probably impossible to convey on screen and I think FaB hit the nail on the head with his analysis. But the book with its visions of Rhaegar (who the TV audience doesn’t even know or remember) would make zero sense. Another choice looks to streamline certain events – looking back Littlefinger telling Sansa about Sandor’s burns makes more sense in the SanSan relationship – something my book non-reading fiancée pointed out “He’s always looked out for her hasn’t he?” Sansa whilst being absolutely terrified of him gradually came to trust and rely on him – now that’s good storytelling. Then making Littlefinger look out for her and promising to take her home thus taking on the Dontos role – again observed by my brother this time “I’m not sure if he is being helpful or has some scheme for himself.” again the book Littlefinger explained a different way on tv but with the same mistrust. Varys too has been brilliantly portrayed – his visit to Ros proving he needs extra eyes on Littlefinger. Another thing that seemed to rile people when she first appeared was Shae – oh she’s not like book Shae who lets face it is not as interesting as TV Shae who has grown into one of the best side characters – her and Tyrion’s final scene was wonderful as he thought she was there because he paid her and she basically stays because she loves him – it’s brilliant writing. The realisation on Tyrion’s face and the tears are real. Superb. There are other things. Not like the book but no less well done. Making Margery a real character, the Tyrell’s will really come to the fore next season, they laid the groundwork here. Replacing Jeyne with Talisa -which whilst causing purist outrage doesn’t really alter Robb’s story as he has married for love not for a pact. Talisa again has a similar vibe to Shae in that she’s not a frightened girl who just wants to please her man. She’s strong. Sure they could have just had Jeyne but the mysterious lady from Volantis is definitely interesting. But possibly the greatest change was having Tywin at Harranhal with Arya. Some of their scenes have been the best in the series for me. And I’ll leave you with something that I always use as a template for adaptations. The TV series is the same story, it’s just being told by somebody else so it’s not going to be identical. Keep that in mind and you’ll never wallow in the misery that is the purist’s mind.

I also <3 that I had a horrific nightmare about the bastard of Bolton flaying Jorah Mormont last night. Could it be prophecy? When I awoke there was a blue rose on my pillow…and a honeycomb…and a jackass…

sub·stan·tial, adjective
1. of ample or considerable amount, quantity, size, etc. 2. of a corporeal or material nature; tangible; real. 3. of solid character or quality; firm, stout, or strong. 4. basic or essential; fundamental. 5. wealthy or influential. 6. of real worth, value, or effect. 7. pertaining to the substance, matter, or material of a thing. 8. of or pertaining to the essence of a thing; essential, material, or important. 9. being a substance; having independent existence. 10. Philosophy. pertaining to or of the nature of substance rather than an accident or attribute.

sub·stan·tive, adjective
1. Grammar: a. pertaining to substantives. b. used in a sentence like a noun. c. expressing existence. 2. having independent existence; independent. 3. belonging to the real nature or essential part of a thing; essential. 4. real or actual. 5. of considerable amount or quantity. 6. possessing substance; having practical importance, value, or effect. 7. Law. pertaining to the rules of right which courts are called on to apply, as distinguished from rules of procedure ( opposed to adjective). 8. (of dye colors) attaching directly to the material without the aid of a mordant ( opposed to adjective).

But we can just agree to disagree on that issue, so after this post I’m quite happy to let the matter drop.

Actually, I called it earlier that Ros will end up on the iron throne. Either that, or shes Azor Ahai, or one of the heads of the dragon. otherwise, why is she getting so much time and money that couldve been used on main characters?