In every industry there are those that take big risks for big rewards, and those that take little risk and settle for lesser rewards. R&D isn't a one-time investment, it's an ongoing process, and at best it gives you the chance to lead the pack. The idea that you can design something, and sell something, and surf along on that investment just isn't accurate.

Just go ask rockshox about bicycle suspension. Or Sturmey Archer about internally geared hubs. Or Surly and the commercialization of the fat bike. Or Xtracycle and the long-bike design.

And it's also worth noting that there's more to any business/product then simply design. There's manufacturing, support, marketing, etc. Not all innovation happens by building a better widget. Figuring out how to build a cheaper widget, or how to market your widget, or support your customers better, these are all valid ways companies push forward as well.

I'm not saying it doesn't suck for an individual or small business to have someone come along and rip off your design. I'm sure it sucks. But if your product is successful, it *will* happen. Got to take every dime and invest it in building the brand and developing the next product. And frankly if your business plan doesn't account for competition, well then it's not a terribly sound business plan.

I worked in bike shops for 3 years, owned a bike shop for 5 years, and worked at a major distributor for another 4 years. What I'm sharing here, it's the truth. Ain't saying it's for better or worse, it's just the way it is.

Figuring out how to build a cheaper widget, or how to market your widget, or support your customers better, these are all valid ways companies push forward as well.

I'm not saying it doesn't suck for an individual or small business to have someone come along and rip off your design. I'm sure it sucks. But if your product is successful, it *will* happen. Got to take every dime and invest it in building the brand and developing the next product. And frankly if your business plan doesn't account for competition, well then it's not a terribly sound business plan.

absolutley correct I am disapointed that we have a clone, but at the same time it is a good kick to make improvements on frame to make it much better then a copy, and working faster on a new models, hoping they won't be copied that fast )

Yeah nothing wrong with clones, but I prefer to have something different (special).
That is why I hate the new cars (for normal customers) they almost look the same... Led strip, angry bumper look, etc etc.....

So, now you are saying that Vector is not really "German quality" anymore because it turns out the frames are actually manufactured in Ukraine. You said someone stole something from you but it turns out it wasn't yours in the first place. You have to be consistent in what you are saying or you risk losing your credibility.

Getting angry and calling people idiots does not help to make a point either. I am not even going to respond to your buddy who starts speaking German every time he gets mad. You guys need to grow up and get some good manners for your own benefit if you mean business. I now have people telling me they would never own your product just because the way you behave. Your demeanor inflicts damage on your own sales.

In the meantime, I got my last frame sold and I am going to order more from people that don't say different conflicting things whenever it's convenient for them. If you are a real innovator leading the way (it looks like that is who you think you are), stop screaming like a girl and improve before the competition can catch up. Tesla gave up all of it its patents and is not looking back, it actually invites copycats. I personally preferred the Enduro frame over Vector because they used ABS plastic for the covers making the frame a bit lighter and the battery box roomier. I have no first hand knowledge (other than your shaky statements) if they borrowed anything from anyone and on what terms but, if they did, they have actually improved on that design.

I personally didn't cheat or steal anything from anyone and I have no affiliation with any party of this silly IP conflict. You will have to settle it between yourselves if there is anything to settle. I simply buy things in bulk that I've tested to be of good quality and use it in my own builds or resell passing the saving to my customers and offering them the convenience of the local service.

Peace be with you and good luck with your business endeavors.

Artur wrote:Sorry, but you are truly idiot, we are working with Pavlo together! Where do you think all the original frame and accessories produced? We Just made Vector brand for outside Ukraine market 2 years ago, because "Chobotar" doesn't mean anything to non-Ukrainian speakers.

vadicus wrote:So, now you are saying that Vector is not really "German quality" anymore because it turns out the frames are actually manufactured in Ukraine.

I've never said that the frame made in Germany, I don't know where did you take it, probably where you take the rest fake facts you said here. More over, if you would spend 5 minutes of reading original Vector frame forum topic you would find all this information dated July 03, 2014, instead of writing total nonsense!

vadicus wrote:Getting angry and calling people idiots does not help to make a point either. I am not even going to respond to your buddy who starts speaking German every time he gets mad.

1. Im not mad. Are you?
2. One time = everytime you say? Well, that´s some genious, convinsingly logic, you got there.
3. Im to lazy to talk in english everytime something which was meant for just one person who speaks the same language like me. I was talking about that he is so arrogant about the princip of germanys way of earning money (yeah I know, my english is low sometimes) - Although that´s also the same princip of his own job later.

Samd wrote:I call bullshit. John's K unique design at stealth was first.
He's not some big corporation, just some guy from Melbourne. There were no monocoques before this.

Putting a battery in the downtube, top tube or anything else - lots of options there any plenty of them on here. But none of them come from China - too lazy for ideas.

So my question stands - who pays the bill for development?
Because team china is turning this into a commodity game with oh-so-boring copies.
Want to still be riding something that looks like a shitbox from eastern europe in twenty years? Good for you! I hope your job gets outsourced soon. Real soon.

My question stands, who pays for development then?

Which bill for which development? Who will pay to whom? Why do you think someone will pay it?
Noone asked to pay smth to someone, why do you say so many empty words here?
Nor John K, nor Chobotar do not care, but you all are so worry.
Enduro frame is better and cheaper from Vector, that is why we choose chinese factory and work with them and support them.
I made video with simple test to proof that the quality is really better.
Why will someone choose "original" poor quality with higher price?
If Indian or African or Japan or Russian or Ukrainian factory can produce better product with lower price - I think it is reasonable to purchase from them,
why not?

I dont think that your frame is better just because your sidecovers can take more than the Vector ones. What about the frame without sidecovers? Make a big drop and watch what happens. How long can you go on an offroadtrack with both frames? And which will bend at first? Sidecovers are just a little piece of the whole thing if you ask me..

Powervelocity.com wrote:Yep, it's getting a bit old just labeling anything "cheap Chinese stuff" if it's made in China. Let's face it: most of stuff we consider hi-end whether it's your iPhone or professional grade Makita tools are made in China.

Yeah I agree with that, folks can't impugn an entire country as being bad just because a lot of stuff is made there..
I think they should say "gray market stuff" as the type of junk they argue about struggles to ever have a real face/brand behind it... it just exists...

Lurkin wrote:
If you look at what true innovators are doing, they are moving away from trying to protect their prior art or whining about others copying it. Rather, open source - go to it and copy it. The original innovator strives to be ahead, so their next design is always better and of greater value, even if the clones were half capable of a proper replica. Either that, or face constant (and very expensive) intellectual property lawsuits.....
.

Sorry if people don't like this stuff but now and then I like to give little history lessons about stuff thats on the same topic of discussion...
Most people consider Steve jobs a true innovator and when he found out Google was copying their iPhone idea he was very angry and in my mind I think its what caused his cancer and killed him in crazy/anger...
Website quote "When Apple was working on its iPhone strategy, which included what is now iOS, Google's CEO was Eric Schmidt and he was serving on Apple's board. That means that he was likely privy to Apple's iPhone strategy and roadmap at the same time Android was in its infancy."http://au.pcmag.com/mobile-operating-sy ... er-android

Most of Apples operating system work came from BSD opensource unix-like OS projects, one of the most obvious reasons that Steve Jobs/Apple started to build their billion dollar software/hardware projects on BSD was because the BSD licencse says you can do what ever you want with it except claim it was all your own, this also means you don't need to share any source code if you don't want to unlike GPL Linux..
Website quote ".. have been incorporated in whole or in part in modern proprietary operating systems, e.g., the TCP/IP networking code in Windows NT 3.1[1] and most of the foundation of Apple's OS X and iOS....Apple Inc.'s Darwin, the core of OS X and iOS; built on the XNU kernel (part Mach, part FreeBSD, part Apple-derived code) and a userland much of which comes from FreeBSDhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_ ... stribution"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenseshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) ctrl+freebsd

So many people love their smart phones but little know where it came from or how it came to be.. They might think they are clever to even think it first came into to existence because of Linux which couldn't technically be further from the truth, but after Androids release the iphone most certainly had proper competition.

Most people put Google into the "true innovators" or "moving away from trying to protect their prior art" group but there have been a lot of angry Linux folks out there in the past accusing Google of breaking GPL open source licencing rules and illegally withholding source code to profit from it..
Website quote " Android's poor track record on openness is becoming harder to ignore.
The company revealed Thursday that it will delay publication of the Android 3.0 source code for the foreseeable future—possibly for months. "http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... comb-code/

All to often when I ask the question about how something has happened or say why someone like Eric Schmidt being on Apples board while conspiring against them did what he did etc? The answer comes back always as "because they can"... or "because it could..."
One of the things I been noticing more lately then ever before is how little the world stands still and how the world is constantly moving faster then I think, its like watching a floating iceberg you never really see it moving but it most certainly is..
What am I saying with all this? The world is a complicated place...

Your are implying I have made this suggestion ignorance. I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.

Steve Jobs has openly admitted in interviews of 'taking' others ideas and implementing them. Interface from xerox comes to mind. In other words, they are also copying others and part of the success was also attributed to it.

Have you stopped to consider why apple spends ridiculous amounts on R&D? Simple- any new concept will eventually be copied, the only way forward is to innovate beyond competitors products and price them to cover the cost.

I guess I just want to know who are all these modern day "open source - go to it and copy it." true innovators folks/companies?
As all the ones I have ever looked at when doing any kind of digging in the back of my memory have been serious hypocrites in the past.. If they have gone all pure open source etc its usually because underneath it all they were forced...

you should name this thread Vector Style Chinese frame. If you Look on a picture, you will understans why this is not Bomber clone..

Holy sh*t.

I've been mountainbiking and downhill riding for a few years now, and ive got to say that these frames look really (!) shit to ride.
Two years ago i started building my own frames, and of course i did faults as well, of course i didnt new how to do things first.

There are many things criticized in the frames design here, but no ones saying what it is. actually this is also my opinion. everyone that already really rode a mountainbike and interested in geometry and framebulding stuff will see this easily.

But for the welds: As im building my frames with aluminum tubing, i read at least 50h about theory on welding aluminum and steel, and of course I'm also welding by myself. I did both, TIG and MIG welding, ive worked in a steel construction company for some months, and i have to say, that these welds dont look that good, but they will hold. in some points you can see that the weld ist more like "on" the steel than burned into steel. But they will still be fine for that application.

you should name this thread Vector Style Chinese frame. If you Look on a picture, you will understans why this is not Bomber clone..

Holy sh*t.

I've been mountainbiking and downhill riding for a few years now, and ive got to say that these frames look really (!) shit to ride.
Two years ago i started building my own frames, and of course i did faults as well, of course i didnt new how to do things first.

There are many things criticized in the frames design here, but no ones saying what it is. actually this is also my opinion. everyone that already really rode a mountainbike and interested in geometry and framebulding stuff will see this easily.

But for the welds: As im building my frames with aluminum tubing, i read at least 50h about theory on welding aluminum and steel, and of course I'm also welding by myself. I did both, TIG and MIG welding, ive worked in a steel construction company for some months, and i have to say, that these welds dont look that good, but they will hold. in some points you can see that the weld ist more like "on" the steel than burned into steel. But they will still be fine for that application.

Here we go, that´s what I was waiting for. Now I only miss an accident with this frame where the whole thing snapped like on some "bmx frame snaping fails"-videos.

Now, that I've ridden these frames for a while and built a few bike for customers, I can say that they work pretty well regardless what the competition is saying. And I run them above 8kW and over 50 mph. ABS covers wear pretty well. Even though there are some minor scratches here and there, they are hardly noticeable on black and can't be seen at all on white. And I dropped the bike a couple times. Still nice and shiny like new. Nothing is broken.

I have almost done it - got everything together but, on a second thought, realized that bbshd would be better off on a lighter aluminum frame.

This frame is built specifically for high power hub motors with steel swingarm and super strong torque arms. Hub motors at 6kw make these heavier frames accelerate from standstill very nicely due to great torque from zero and lack of gearing.

BBSHD is rated for up 1kw and adds gearing. I mean it will work but would make the bike lose its appeal. It would be slow and underpowered.
Going the middrive route with this frame, I would probably consider something more powerful, like Cyclone or something in at least 3-4kw range.

That is one of the funniest threads in the forum, with lot of VIP people arguing about interesting facts. However, I should note you that patents a real. Does anybody patented anything? If not, hard to claim anything in our protected markets and it becomes free to be copied (and improve please)...

Sr.Agaporni wrote:That is one of the funniest threads in the forum, with lot of VIP people arguing about interesting facts. However, I should note you that patents a real. Does anybody patented anything? If not, hard to claim anything in our protected markets and it becomes free to be copied (and improve please)...

Time to patent the frames?

A) Design patent gives you nothing. Some minor changes and it is a new design already.
B) There is no legal method to deal with offenders in China if you are in America or Europe, or vice versa.

Powervelocity.com wrote:Innovate fast enough so that competition is always behind and you won't have to worry about patents.

It is possible only with a HUGE budgets for developing team members part, and huge number of sales (500+ a month), then we can create a new frames every 3-4 month.

Just saw this thread, and read it. Don't know what to say really. I vaguely remember there was similar debate on the first Qulbix/Raptor design.
I think shouting to each other on a forum will not work well as a business model for either one of the parties. Accept the situation if you can't change it. And once accepted live with it and live well. Don't spend your time arguing here, work to better your products, take note of what customers say or suggest and start working on version 2.0, or make accessories, improve if there is something that can be done better. Much better return moneywise if you spend your time, brainpower and focus on moving forward then raging on the forum.

I think there is room for all, people have different needs, different taste and different wallets. There are so much more to a well running business then just the inventory. Customer support, logistics, service and extra service, etc. Those things might turn out to be just as much of your brand name as your end product. Building a brand is building trust, familiarity, cravings and being able to deliver time and time again to the expectations of the customers.

And my 2 cents on the design and geometry is that this works. Sure they are not DH race bikes. But they don't intend to be that. They give customers choices when it comes to full suspended electric bikes. They both have room to keep battery and even controller well protected in the frame. And they work well with a DD hub in the rear wheel. I have not yet done hard core off road riding on the Vector, but for every day usage in the city, on gravel back roads and walk paths in the wood it works great. I sure get my moneys worth. If I feel the urge to do motox style riding I would build another bike, with less unsprung weight. But I was not expecting this bike to be a dirt bike I could do big air with or steep drops.

Just reread this entire thread, lol and it truly is one of the funniest on the entire forum.
After riding an EEB frame for so long already, my initial concerns over it's build quality have long faded, to be replaced by more mundane daily ebike probs, whose concerns are more pressing! E.g hubbie cooling mods, like ferro fluid, or venting for summer, and to allow for higher constant power ratings, or general maintenance like chain lube etc. I don't really even remember when i last thought about the quality of my "frame welds?"
Anybody else still fretting over the "cheap clone copy?"