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Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

Originally Posted by Yankee Steve

Did any of you guys actually SEE Koufax pitch? Believe me when I say that regardless of where the games were played, it was a mismatch with him on the mound. I believe he pitched a shutout in game 7 vs. the Twins in 1965, on two days rest and with no curve to speak of that day. The guy was money and class personified. Pitched in excess of 300 innings in multiple seasons, complete games, and of course all those K's. Overrated???? Don't make me laugh. He was abused which is what shortened his career. In spring training in his early 50's, he was still throwing high 80's in BP. I wasn't a Dodger fan (Yankee forever), but had to admire what he could do to the opposition.

Well, I remember Koufax, but it's usually those that haven't seen the player in question that devalue that player's accomplishments. Koufax dominated the Yankees lineup like they were a bunch of school girls.

Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

Koufax in his prime was more dominant than Pedro in his, based on what I saw. The lineups Pedro faced may have been deeper. Inter-generational comparisons are never fully meaningful. But Koufax was not hittable when he was on, and I never felt that about Pedro, whatever the statistics show.

Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

Originally Posted by rajah

Koufax in his prime was more dominant than Pedro in his, based on what I saw. The lineups Pedro faced may have been deeper. Inter-generational comparisons are never fully meaningful. But Koufax was not hittable when he was on, and I never felt that about Pedro, whatever the statistics show.

Well, as reliable as the human memory is when compared to objective factual records, I'm going to go with Pedro.

Weirdly, if you take Koufax' best five-year stretch and compare it to Pedro's, they had the exact same WHIP (0.926), H/9 (6.3), and HR/9 (0.6), and almost the exact same BB/9 (Pedro: 2.0, Koufax: 2.1). Pedro struck out a LOT more guys (11.6 to 9.4), and obviously his ERA+ was much better (215 to 167). The fact is that Pedro was just as effective as Koufax despite pitching when the league was at its all-time hitting peak, in the best offensive park in the better hitting league. Koufax pitched in the best era ever for a pitcher, in the best pitching park in the better pitching league.

Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

Originally Posted by rajah

Koufax in his prime was more dominant than Pedro in his, based on what I saw. The lineups Pedro faced may have been deeper. Inter-generational comparisons are never fully meaningful. But Koufax was not hittable when he was on, and I never felt that about Pedro, whatever the statistics show.

Pedro seemed to toy with hitters at times. The quote I think that best sums it up was when some MLBer was asked to name the 3 best pitches in the game he replied - Pedro's fast ball, Pedro's curve ball and Pedro's change up.

My favorite Pedro AB was against Manny when he was still with the Indians. Pedro threw him 3 straight looping curve balls each one seemimgly slower than the last and Manny looked like Pedro Serano on each and every one of them.

Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

Originally Posted by RenoHightower

Well, as reliable as the human memory is when compared to objective factual records, I'm going to go with Pedro.

Weirdly, if you take Koufax' best five-year stretch and compare it to Pedro's, they had the exact same WHIP (0.926), H/9 (6.3), and HR/9 (0.6), and almost the exact same BB/9 (Pedro: 2.0, Koufax: 2.1). Pedro struck out a LOT more guys (11.6 to 9.4), and obviously his ERA+ was much better (215 to 167). The fact is that Pedro was just as effective as Koufax despite pitching when the league was at its all-time hitting peak, in the best offensive park in the better hitting league. Koufax pitched in the best era ever for a pitcher, in the best pitching park in the better pitching league.

Koufax also threw a LOT more innings.

How good whould Pedro have been if he had to complete all (most of) his games and do it in a 4 man rotation?

Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

In the best hitting park in the league, no less. Pedro, from roughly 1997 until he got hurt in 2001, is the best pitcher I've ever seen, and I suspect that most anyone who is still alive has seen.

Agreed. That game he pitched against the Yanks in September 1999 remains the most dominant game I've ever seen pitched against the Yanks in my lifetime. He made one mistake to Chili Davis who took him yard, and he hit a batter...thats it. 9 IP, 1 R, 1 H, 0 BB, 17 K. The Yanks looked like they didnt belong on the same field w/him that night.

This game, and the Wood 20 K game vs Houston in 98 are the most dominant games I've seen pitched since I've been a fan.

Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

Originally Posted by rajah

Koufax in his prime was more dominant than Pedro in his, based on what I saw. The lineups Pedro faced may have been deeper. Inter-generational comparisons are never fully meaningful. But Koufax was not hittable when he was on, and I never felt that about Pedro, whatever the statistics show.

There comes a point when you have to let nostalgia go. There is going to come a point where modern players are going to eclipse the legends of the game. Koufax included, and Pedro did it. Mays and Williams will be eclipsed and dare I say Ruth will be eclipsed. You can't let the legend be more than it is when statistics tell you otherwise.

And it's already been stated but it could be said again, steroid era, hitters era, AL East, and in Fenway. Koufax was best during a pitchers era in a pitchers ballpark with a dead ball. I don' take away from the talents of the man, he is a legend and should be. But Pedro is better.

Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

The three Yankee starters against the Mets have a combined winning percentage of .750 and the three Mets starters against the Yankees have a combined winning percentage of .762. When was the last time the Yankees played a series of three or more games significantly into the season when both of those were .750 or better?

Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

Originally Posted by grizy

Only sins we can convict Pedro of is wearing Red Sox, Mets and Phillies uniforms.

Who else can claim that dubious honor?

Amazing enough! I don't hate the Mets like at all.I mean I don't want them to win or anything when they are facing us. But, if I really had to choose my top 3 most hated teams. The Angels would take the Mets spot in that, I don't know what it is about them. The way they play, the way they always seem to own us at home, just the players in general. I don't know, but I despise the Angels with a passion. Mets I can actually tolerate . Red Sox, Angels, Phillies, I really can't.

Pedro in his prime was one of the best pitchers in the major leagues. I am not going to say who was best. I have watched Baseball for a lot less time then you guys have. I only started watching in 2000.

Still and will always be a New England Patriots fan.

[quote=THEBOSS84]You may be my favorite poster on the site. So sweet and innocent.[/quote]

Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

Originally Posted by JohnnyDamonfan

Amazing enough! I don't hate the Mets like at all.I mean I don't want them to win or anything when they are facing us. But, if I really had to choose my top 3 most hated teams. The Angels would take the Mets spot in that, I don't know what it is about them. The way they play, the way they always seem to own us at home, just the players in general. I don't know, but I despise the Angels with a passion. Mets I can actually tolerate . Red Sox, Angels, Phillies, I really can't.

Pedro in his prime was one of the best pitchers in the major leagues. I am not going to say who was best. I have watched Baseball for a lot less time then you guys have. I only started watching in 2000.

Well i'm not a native New Yorker so i guess that's why i don't have as much animosity towards the Mets as a lot of other Yankees fans. Phillies fans are just annoying, they love playing the "Cliff Lee" card.