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EDIT: Now that I think about it, the main force behind Ringo's character growth was Shouma. He really helped her to see things from a new perspective. I wonder if she can help Shouma get over his issues. Now that Kanba has made a contract with Sanetoshi, I assume the only one who is in a position to act is Shouma, who's still pretty much the only character outside the game, so to speak. But unless he can come to terms with the past, he isn't going to be of any use, so... let's just hope Ringo can do something for him.

This is what I've been hoping for since I started shipping Ringo/Shouma. And I think this episode does sort of lead some credence to that with Tabuki's speech to Ringo at the end that there is probably a reason she found out about their parents.

And I also really loved the call back to Ringo's speech on fate at the end of the episode, obviously she is no longer talking about Tabuki and it was nice to frame it with Shouma's speech about fate in the beginning (now I understand why he would say all we knew is we would never amount to anything).

It seems a lot of people didn't like the flashback of the Takakura's but I am glad they showed us more of what happened that day.

Although it was only one episode later, I did like how Sanetoshi used the same lines as the black bunnies "Don't Give Up the World Didn't End/Stop Turning Just Yet".

And finally Momoka being the hat....things have gotten more interesting (although it does make Himari less compelling, but oh well!)

Has anyone noticed that 2 pieces of apple on a dish in Masako's room are practically identical with that Student Council meeting scene in episode 5 of Utena where there was a whole apple lying on a chair in one shot and in the next one, the apple was shown being cut into pieces that resembled rabbits?

Hmm, I wasn't really feeling this episode. After such a big buildup last week, this one was just a lot of exposition. It wasn't bad, just kind of anti-climatic I suppose.

Edit: I'm leaning towards the hat being the girl who was with Sanetoshi (Momoka.) He loved her but she didn't love him back. When he put the hat on Himari in episode 9, he tried to kiss her and she rejected him yet again.

Hmm, I wasn't really feeling this episode. After such a big buildup last week, this one was just a lot of exposition. It wasn't bad, just kind of anti-climatic I suppose.

Same here. It felt a bit...unsatisfying (?).ED was brilliant though, both song wise and art wise. The last scene with the hands were a bit frightening though, since after this episode it's implied the dead/zombie one is Kanba.

Interesting that it seemed like Mario died at the same time Himari did. Would explain why Natsume was thanking him for the serum. So Momoka is the hat that Himari has, but i wonder who is in the hat that Mario has. I wonder who has the other half of the diary.

Tough news for kids to have to deal with, felt bad for them, ut at least we got to see how they came to know about it. Seems like Ringo has given up on Tabuki now. So i wonder what the scars on his hand are from, looked like he got them before the incident happened.

Ringo look so normnal now... Kanba's eyes look similar to his father, i think that confirm which one is the real son

Personally I think we all misunderstood about only one of the twins being the Takakura son. Just because Kenzan didn't say oh I got twin boys and merely said 'otoko no ko' doesn't have to mean it's "a boy" (Yeah, I think it's gg's translation issue)

I also think this episode implies that Momoka = Princess of the Crystal. I have only one problem : If so then she's Ringo's sister. Why has she never shown any sign of recognition? Not to mention that she always called Ringo bad names too. I can accept that she maybe tomboyish but did she really have to go that far towards her own sister? Just wondering.

I didn't enjoy this episode as much as last week's but it was still good.
I just had a question about the flashback when the siblings are at the hotel.
Shouma says:

Spoiler for -:

So...

Spoiler for -:

Does that mean the parents had started a second survival strategy? If so, for what purpose?

EDIT: I agree with you, pessimstic_freak. Shouma's eyes seem to be a mixture between Chiemi's and Kenzan's anyway (even if the Takakura brothers where not siblings, I actually think it would make more sense to say Shouma was the real son because of that).

The plot has become a little bit confusing in this anime, but the artwork, animation, style, characterization, drama, suspense, bgm, etc... was all excellent in this episode.

I also have to agree with Kazu-kun on Ringo. She took a major step forward this episode, and her character is more likable for it, imo.

I also think that Ringo's character ironically became more important in this episode in spite of the fact that she hasn't been a focal point for awhile now.

Prior to this episode, I wasn't sure where Ringo fitted into the overarching conflicts of this anime. She seemed to be off pursuing her yandere destiny while the other three major protagonists were the only ones directly involved in the main overarching conflicts of the anime.

But I think that's changed now, and I also get a sense that Ringo is being developed as the antithesis to Kanba.

This anime talks a lot about fate. It primarily does that through two characters: Kanba (who hates it) and Ringo (who loves it).

I think that the theme of this anime will likely come back to the concept of fate.

In Kanba, we see someone who fights against it, and who refuses to succumb to it.

In Ringo, we see someone who adores it, and seeks to force it.

But Ringo has changed a bit here. Ringo has taken on the approach that there are things in life that can't be preserved forever (much as Tabuki said to her), and hence it's best to accept that and make the most out of what you have in the here and now. I had initially thought that Ringo's belief in destiny/fate would be crushed by her not fulfilling her goal to become Momoko, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. Ringo appears to be adapting remarkably well.

Now... Is this anime saying that Himari's life can't be preserved forever (just like Ringo can't preserve or 'bring back' the exact sort of family life she once had), and that Kanba's struggles to keep her alive by any means necessary are misplaced? Is it saying that Kanba should be more like Ringo, accepting of 'fate' and what it means at a practical level?

I would find that interesting given how many viewers have thus far suspected that this anime is attempting to subvert the concept of fate.

In any event, Kanba and Ringo have been setup as philosophical rivals, although neither is aware of it. It'll be interesting to see if they ever come to direct conflict due to that.

Ultimately, the anime will either agree with Kanba's perspective, or agree with Ringo's perspective, or land on some sort of synthesis between the thesis and antithesis.

All of this will likely be tied to the results of the experiment of sorts that Sanetoshi is running.

Thematically strong episode, as difficult as it can be too see where the plot is going next.

Gotta said I loved Ringo so much in this episode. I didn't really have any emotional attachment with any of these characters until now, mostly because Ikuhara hasn't put too much effort to make them sympathetic, let along likable: they're all one-trick ponies, all of them stack on their issues and/or desires, and they just don't change or grow....

But Ringo did grow. When the series began she was just nut (literally) but now she's coming to terms with the past and is even starting to show genuine concern for the people around her. Heck, she was even able to congratulate his father on his new marriage.

I just would like to see some progress from the other characters as well, specially Shouma and Kanba, although that probably isn't going to happen any time soon.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the main force behind Ringo's character growth was Shouma. He really helped her to see things from a new perspective. I wonder if she can help Shouma get over his issues. Now that Kanba has made a contract with Sanetoshi, I assume the only one who is in a position to act is Shouma, who's still pretty much the only character outside the game, so to speak. But unless he can come to terms with the past, he isn't going to be of any use, so... let's just hope Ringo can do something for him.

Yes, though I was a harsh critic Ringo did indeed grow. Between that and the fact that Ikuhara did have a plan to bring her role more into balance with the others, she's redeemed herself somewhat in my eyes. Really, she's just driftwood like all the other MCs - a tool in the hands of fate.

I agree that Shouma was the main instigator here. When Ringo talks about how she loves fate because happy chance encounters can happen, I think it's meeting Shouma that she's talking about. I was very interested in the one, two, three black kittens in the playground watching that conversation with Tabuki.

This anime talks a lot about fate. It primarily does that through two characters: Kanba (who hates it) and Ringo (who loves it).

What about Shouma then? In this episode, he takes for himself Kenba's words about fate. He doesn't react as desperately as his older brother and is taking a more passive position, but still. He blames fate (or should I say Fate) for what happened to Himari when really this seems to be a normal disease.
Isn't it weird to explain that you little sister is dying because your parents did terrible things years ago and as their children, you've to payed the price. What is that, some kind of inter-generational repayment?
I've said it already, but even if one believe in karma and destiny, shouldn't those be tied to your actions only? Why believe your relatives acts, even your parents, would influence drastically your own destiny?
IMHO, the siblings reasoning is flawed, baseless... crazy? Most certainly the result of despair (mixed to self-pity?). But still not ok.
Ringo realized she was wrong. How long will it be before the brothers do the same. Probably too late...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pessimistic_freak

I also think this episode implies that Momoka = Princess of the Crystal. I have only one problem : If so then she's Ringo's sister. Why has she never shown any sign of recognition? Not to mention that she always called Ringo bad names too. I can accept that she maybe tomboyish but did she really have to go that far towards her own sister? Just wondering.

She could be jealous of her sister living when she died so young? Or angry to see her waste her time running after Tabuki, whom she loved and could still be in love with?
Whatever the reason, her harsh treatment toward Himari was weird, she clearly has a personal grudge against her. Tends to reinforce the idea Momoka=PofC for me.

I started out liking Ringo, then didn't care about her, and now I like Ringo again. Perhaps I'm just as bipolar as she is .

I really got hit hard for whatever reason by Ringo's speech about fate being spliced into he episode again. It fit so well, and was actually really beautiful and touching. Wonderful directing this episode.

I really love this ED, much more so than the last one. Penguindrum has successfully reclaimed my interest in it back to where it was at the beginning. Lets hope I don't lose it a little bit like I did before.

Really looking forward to how this all turns out for the cast. I'm liking them more and more.

Rating is irrelevant, I threw a 9 but could've very well have given a 10 to this episode. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy for now.

When Ringo talks about how she loves fate because happy chance encounters can happen, I think it's meeting Shouma that she's talking about.

Yeah, I thought the same, but I disagree with you that she's "kidding herself" (I read that from your blog, btw). I don't think believing in fate is a misguided mindset in itself. As long as you're willing to accept both the good and the bad as part of your life, whether you think it's all according to fate or just random events doesn't make any difference IMO.

I think Ringo changed in the sense that before she wasn't willing to accept the bad things that happened to her. She said she believed in fate, but every time things wouldn't come out as she hoped for, she would try to force them to happen, try to force "fate" into what she wanted. So even though she was always talking about fate, in the end she was just trying to subvert it. Overall, she was just running away from her fate, running away from reality.

But now it's different. The fact that she's able to accept her father's marriage, and even come to appreciate her encounter with Shouma even though it has brought her painful memories, means that she's willing to face reality. She calls it fate, but that's irrelevant, because she's not running away from it anymore.

EDIT: OH, this little spoiler about Ringo seems relevant:

Spoiler for Ringo's fate:

From Animedia (episodes 16 and 17):

Ringo manages to solidify her resolve to break free from the curse of the diary and live out her own fate.

Kanba is angry, defiant and a schemer – he wants to find a way to beat the system and refuses to accept the (seemingly) obvious truth about his parents. Ringo embraces fate, or pretends to – first as regards becoming Momoka, then in terms of meeting Shouma. When I say she’s kidding herself I mean she clearly needs to believe things happen for a reason or else her head just can’t process reality. And Shouma seems to be something of a fatalist, with a hint of self-loathing. He sees the dark side of things, embraces not just his parents’ guilt but his own complicity in it just by nature of his birth, and assumes that the terrible events in his life are a result of divine punishment and things will only get worse.

Ringo's POV is needed as a point in the triangle with the brothers, which is interesting because in theory, Himari should be the third point. But she’s still more a plot device than a character, someone who acts as a catalyst for events in the lives of Ringo and the boys but doesn’t actively participate or display a distinct perspective very often. Given all the speculation that the sibling relationships in this series may not be all they seem, I wonder if there might be something even deeper here that we’re not privy to yet.

When I say she’s kidding herself I mean she clearly needs to believe things happen for a reason or else her head just can’t process reality.

Many people around the world believe things happen for a reason. It's part of the Christian doctrine, at the very least, and it's probably the same for other religions too. Are all these people kidding themselves for thinking this way? I don't really think the series is trying to make such a point.

IMO the important thing is that Ringo's not running way from her reality anymore. She calls it fate, but that's besides the point.

Shouma and Kanba, on the other hand, are still running way from reality. Kanba is still trying to subvert it, and Shouma has given up on it all together.

What about Shouma then? In this episode, he takes for himself Kenba's words about fate. He doesn't react as desperately as his older brother and is taking a more passive position, but still. He blames fate (or should I say Fate) for what happened to Himari when really this seems to be a normal decease.
Isn't it weird to explain that you little sister is dying because your parents did terrible things years ago and as their children, you've to payed the price. What is that, some kind of inter-generational repayment?
I've said it already, but even if one believe in karma and destiny, shouldn't those be tied to your actions only? Why believe your relatives acts, even your parents, would influence drastically your own destiny?

Well, in a practical sense at least, they kind of do.

I mean, let's say your father was a notorious criminal mastermind like Al Capone. You don't think that would influence how your classmates treated you at school?

Speaking personally, my father was a teacher at the same school I attended. In fact, I was even in his class once (Grade 4). For good or for ill, this definitely had an impact on how my classmates treated me.

I do think that the brothers are taking this to a bit of an unhealthy extreme, but sociologically speaking, it really can sometimes be difficult to escape character presumptions based on what your parents were like (this is particularly true for teenagers, I think). It can feel like you're being punished for the crimes of your parents, or have lofty expectations thrust upon you based on what your parents are like.

With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if Kanba and Sho have faced some ostracization from their peers given how their parents were behind a terrorist act.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Many people around the world believe things happen for a reason. It's part of the Christian doctrine, at the very least, and it's probably the same for other religions too. You think all these people are kidding themselves for thinking this way?

It's definitely true that there are plenty of people worldwide who sincerely believe in fate, or a more precise variant of it (determinism at a secular level, predestination within Calvinistic theology within the Christian faith, etc...).

So no, I don't think that Ringo is necessarily "kidding herself" either.

As always, I'm a bit late to the party. I always enjoy reading the impressions in these threads, though.

One thing I didn't see mentioned; when Tabuki talks about the last time he saw Momoka, we see the two of them part hands, and Tabuki's fingers are already scarred. Before that, one might assume that "the incident" would be where he might have suffered such an injury. Whatever caused it is probably important, if only to understand his character.

Ringo's character development might seem overdue to some, but it's a beautiful thing to watch.

I wonder if the parents were ever caught. I assume they're still on the run, but I don't think it's been said outright.

Are Satanoshi's Oompa-Loompas the bunnies? They look similar. Nice touch with the two rabbit-shaped apple slices while Satanoshi is on the phone.

With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if Kanba and Sho have faced some ostracization from their peers given how their parents were behind a terrorist act.

Maybe when younger, but I don't think Kanba would have so many playmates of the female variety if they were still being ostracized. My guess is very few kids around them in the present know how they are tied to those "terrorists" (like how Ringo didn't; and if there was a person who would have had reason to realize, Ringo is it). I'd also say the only real reason Sho seems to have no friends is because he's so fixated on guilt over what his parents did that he's his own stumbling block when it comes to making friends, and not because the students around him know what his parents did and shun him for it. Again, in the present. Flashbacks seem to indicate in the past, when it was all fresh, their peers may have had some idea.

As an aside, it's kind of amusing how they've only seemingly gone to school...once? twice? this season. I admit to knowing next to nothing about the Japanese school system, but my own highschool flunked anyone absent more than five days a quarter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

One thing I didn't see mentioned; when Tabuki talks about the last time he saw Momoka, we see the two of them part hands, and Tabuki's fingers are already scarred. Before that, one might assume that "the incident" would be where he might have suffered such an injury.

We actually saw the scars on him in the flashback an episode or two ago. As the "incident" was unfolding, so it's always been something that had to have occurred prior to it.

I'll stick to my guns on Ringo, because for her entire life she's felt the need to use the crutch of believing that her decisions were unimportant, that she was just following a chosen path. For most of that time it was the Momoko fantasy, and now - rather than try and face an uncertain future - she's transferred that faith to something else (Shouma). There's nothing wrong with faith or belief, but I think she's also afraid of anything she can't explain away.