I was just working on some Greek-English exercises and I came across this:
[face=spionic]toi=n phgai=n[/face]
it's in the dual, according to my charts. Yet isn't dual used for nouns that come in pairs like eyes, ears, nostrils, shoes, etc.?
so it would translate into "of/to the two-fountains"

Also, in an English-Greek exercise, would "the two-fountains" be [face=spionic]tw= phga/[/face]?

Hehe, I'm starting slow but I'm learning fast!

PS-I'm using a textkit book called "A First Greek Course" by Sir William Smith.

Last edited by Aurelia on Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:49 am, edited 3 times in total.

can I check a couple more? I know they don't want lists of homework so I'll just put up a couple to make sure I'm on the right track (I didn't know how to say "they" so I'll post the ones that have "they" in them)

English-Greek

They admire the justice of the queen.
[face=spionic]qaumazei th=s basilei/as.[/face]

They give a fountain to the two-Muses.
[face=spionic]dideasi phghn toi=n Mou=sain[/face]

Last edited by Aurelia on Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

oops, I accidentally left out that part. I made a note next to that so I must have missed it. thanks, Titus! I also see now I used the wrong sigma at the end of [face=spionic]th=j[/face] and [face=spionic]basilei/aj[/face]

Emma_85 wrote:In which texts would I come across such a use of the dual? I don't think I've seen it in Homer, but maybe I just missed it...

It occurs in Epic most often, I think. Homer does use it. In Iliad A I think most of the examples are when speaking of the two sons of Atreus (Agamemnon and Menelaos), and then again the two sent to Achilles to fetch The Girl.

Using dual was also an Attic aristocratic tic, in order to show refined manners.
Many duals in Plato's Euthydemus, in which Socrates speaks with two brothers [face=SPIonic]Eu)qu/dhmoj[/face] and [face=SPIonic]Dionuso/dwroj[/face]

There are also [face=SPIonic]tw\ qew/[/face], the Two-Gods, Castor and Pollux.

Okay here's some more from Exercise II (I didn't want to make another post for fear of hogging the board):

Greek-English[face=spionic]th=| a)reth=|[/face]to the virtue

[face=spionic]th\n )Aqhna=n[/face]The Athena (acc)

English-GreekFor the soul
[face=spionic]th= yuxh=[/face]

Greek-English sentences[face=spionic]h( th=j basilei/aj fili/a e)sti\ timh\ th=| nu/mfh|.[/face]
The friendship of the queen is hounour to the bride.

[face=spionic]th\n do/can th=j )areth=j e)/xousin[/face]
He has the reputation of the virtue.

English-Greek sentencesAthena praises the wisdom of the Muses.
[face=spionic]h( A)qhna )epainei= th/n tw=n Mousw=n sofi/an[/face]
-I just wanted to make sure I'm putting the Posessive Genitive in the right place.

Last edited by Aurelia on Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Hmm... maybe I should take a look at the dual forms, they must be somewhere in my big grammar (argh, how I hate the big one ). My teacher said we shouldn't learn them because they hardly ever crop up only with things like eyes, ears and hands. He didn't think they were worth learning it seems.

Aurelia, tes basileas is singular, the friendship of the queen, and exousin is plural, they have ...
Otherwise it looks like you are doing fine . For iota subscript type | after the iota.

Aurelia wrote:[face=spionic]th\n do/can th=j )areth=j e)/xousin[/face]He has the reputation of the virtue.

[face=spionic]e)/xousin[/face] is plural there (They have..). The definite article can also be used idefinitely with abstract nouns (I dunno if that's the right way to say that, but what I mean is [face=spionic]h( a)reth/[/face] can translate as 'virtue'.)

Aurelia wrote:Athena praises the wisdom of the Muses.[face=spionic]h( A)qhna )epainei= th/n tw=n Mousw=n sofi/an[/face]-I just wanted to make sure I'm putting the Posessive Genitive in the right place.

That's fine. You can also repeat the article of the modified noun and then put the modifying noun ([face=spionic]th\n sofi/an th\n tw=n Mousw=n[/face]) or put the article of the modified noun after the modified noun ([face=spionic]sofi/an th\n tw=n Mousw=n[/face]).

The way you did it emphasizes the possession. The other two make it more of an afterthought, the last being more afterthought-ish.

[face=spionic]oi( neani/ai h)san tou= sofistou= maqhtai/[/face]The young men were pupils of the sophist.

[face=spionic]kai\ o)rqo/n[/face]. However, I might put the genitive phrase after the noun it modifies when that noun doesn't have the article: [face=spionic]maqhtai\ tou= sofistou=[/face], assuming "pupil" doesn't need an article, a matter about which I'm not entirely sure right now.

-In Greek, do I need to capitalize the first letter of each sentence?

No. Just names. Longer texts will generally capitalize the first word in a paragraph.

Quote: [face=spionic]oi( neani/ai h)san tou= sofistou= maqhtai/. [/face]The young men were pupils of the sophist.

[face=spionic]kai\ o)rqo/n.[/face] However, I might put the genitive phrase after the noun it modifies when that noun doesn't have the article: [face=spionic]maqhtai\ tou= sofistou=[/face], assuming "pupil" doesn't need an article, a matter about which I'm not entirely sure right now.

Oh that was Greek-English too, sorry. I was just making sure I translated that into English right since it was a little bit confusing.

Ah. You must take care not to think that way. The word isn't masculine.

Second declension nouns are usually masculine or neuter, but there are about a dozen which are feminine. Just as there are plenty of first declension nouns (professions in [face=spionic]-thj[/face], for example) which are masculine.

And eventually you'll run into adjective declensions in which the masculine and feminine forms are identical, and are often second declension.

So, the declension is good indicator of gender, but it isn't a perfect indicator.

hi aurelia, someone advanced like Will will answer all your qns i'm sure, but just in case you want to pre-empt them, here's a few quick suggestions

doesn't qauma/zetai mean "is admired" and not "are admired"?

yep, but neuter plural subjects like "the gifts" can go with either singular or plural verbs... it's weird...

The remedy was the cause of death to the queen.

to/ farmakon h/=n thn ai)tian tou= qanatou th=| basileiai. -Should I have made th=| basileia genitive, since it was the queen's death?

just a few things... if you're saying "x was y" (or "x is y" or something like that), "y" stays in the nominative, rather than going into the accusative... you put "to the queen" correctly in the dative: see section II of the definition of ai)/tioj:

Aurelia wrote:In general, how does Greek word order compare to Latin word order?

Chad has taken care of most of your questions, but I'll comment on this briefly.

The word orders of Latin and Greek are quite different. I've already noticed your tendency to shift the verb to the final position of the sentence, which you should avoid as the default.

Greek word order is a tricky subject, as much a matter of style as grammar, so for now I'd recommend you follow a more English word order, with the addition that the word or phrase you wish to emphasize most goes first rather than last. The order Subject - Verb - Object(s) is the best neutral word order for Greek for beginners.