So...does this mean I can buy a game, install it, and pass it around to give my friends a discount since they can just pay the fee? I hope so. Either way, GS is probably just going to print unlock codes on receipts after making a deal with MS and pubs. Pubs want a cut of used games sales, and this is how they'll most likely get it.

bak00777:I'm confused, will I be able to take a game over to my friend's house and play it on his console? Or will we have to pay in order to play. This whole thing is ridiculous.

The answer last time I checked is probably not. Sony admitted that devs would be able to use serial keys like with pc games to prevent a game from being reused. But devs and publishers can already do this on current consoles and have chosen not to. Also, you run the games off the blue ray disks and don't do full installs.

Its all a little hazy right now and anything can change come launch day but the ps4 is looking good right now

And to all the people immigrating to the PC because of this: Welcome to Steam-Land! Where every fucking game is tied to your Steam account anyway! (or Origin or U-play...) ENJOY!

But all those people who migrate to PC will have to buy a new PC with the goofy mess of Windows 8 and it's 100 million shipped (but not necessarily activated) copies. Yes, Win8 under the hood is slightly better than Win7 but the goofy GUI is what cripples it.

IMHO, Microsoft as a whole is a slowly capsizing boat. The only reason they haven't sunk yet is the fact that they got gobs of cash to plug the holes with for now.

PC gamers who use Steam don't buy second hand games because they can wait for a steam sale and buy it cheaper than it would be marked down in the store anyway.

A disc is good for 1 install on 1 500GB HDD. How many AAA games could 500GB hold? Eventually you'd need to delete older ones to install newer games; does this mean they're gonna try to charge customers to play the game that they themselves already bought brand-new at full price?

Forget resale. Can I even play the same game twice?

It also says that this is account-based. So odds are, it will work like Steam, keeping track of all of the games you purchased, whether they are installed right now or not.

My question is more to "What about multi-user homes?" We've got a generation right now where every member of a household has their own account, with their own achievements, friends, and history. I don't think you'll entice too many people to buy the activation for each family member who wants to play the game you've already paid $60 for.

I imagine it will work the same way that online passes do. I dont actually know how they work on the 360 though. On the ps3 its tied to the account but it works for every other account on that system. If you attach your account to a second system as well it then works with all accounts on both.

Hmm, I actually had the pitchfork out and everything. I was about to make the monster cry about how it fears fire...

But this actually makes sense the way they're pitching it. It sounds like when you buy a new game you're actually purchasing two licenses. An online one and the physical disk. When you trade in the disk you are not trading in the digital license. That's not as outlandish or greedy as it may sound. It does add the nice feature of not needing a disk because you have a steam-like library and it does prevent the same disk from being passed around in blatant copyright enfringement. That potentially means that you can sell back your disk without losing the digital copy of the game. That's significant. Wow.

If it is that way this could be a win/win for a lot of people including making the preowned market a bit stronger even. The reason I doubt this is the case is because a person could buy a game on launch and then sell it back immediately after installing it. They can't get a refund as normal because I'm sure the game stores will be able to identify whether or not the digital license has been used. But having a signficant volume of preowned games mean that the retailers can have $5 cheaper versions of the game only a few days after release. Microsoft will have to make trade agreements preventing such practices if so. To a fair extent at least. This is doable.

Additionally, who gets the money if the rights to make a digital copy is purchased? Does microsoft? It isn't their IP at all. Do they give it to developers? What happens if the developers went under? Lots of questions. If done right, this is brilliant despite being a bad PR move to announce. If done wrong where the disk no longer functions like a regular disk, then it's bad all around.

Andy Shandy:Turns out that pre-owned fee thing is false, at least if Xbox's official support Twitter is anything to go by.

@almightyboob For example...Yes, the Wired article is incorrect about the information you got about used games there. ^PS— Xbox Support (1-5) (@XboxSupport) May 21, 2013

But wrong about which part? Some of this doesn't make sense, like having to force installs because blue ray drives are too slow. Someone already pointed out that there plenty of faster blue ray drives Microsoft could use. Do games still need to be fully installed? If they do can you play them without the disks or do the disks need to be in the drive?

A disc is good for 1 install on 1 500GB HDD. How many AAA games could 500GB hold? Eventually you'd need to delete older ones to install newer games; does this mean they're gonna try to charge customers to play the game that they themselves already bought?

Forget resale. Can I even play the same game twice?

Will probably work like Steam, you can download, delete local data, re download/install from disc as much as you want. The game will most likely be attached to your xbox live account.

the article i saw on dtoid seemed to suggest that it was tied to your account, so yeah i'd guess its similar to steams system of saving onto your account.

regardless, still not getting this. looks less like a games console to me, and a GAMES console would be the only thing to tempt me away from PC gaming

Th37thTrump3t:I think people are jumping the gun with this one, and understandably so. But lets just look at what they are saying here.

With the ability to download a game to your HD and play without a disk, you open a whole can of worms here. What would stop you from going to your local redbox and renting a game, installing it on your hard drive, and then effectively now owning a game you only paid a buck for or buying a game and then giving it to a bunch of your friends so that they can then download it to their hard drives and have a free game? What Microsoft is proposing is that you can still buy used games if you want, but you then are barred from using the no-disk feature of the new xbox. It's a convenience feature. I don't know about you guys but I'm perfectly okay with that. I don't mind having to use a disk to play a game. Hell, I've been doing it for years now. Not only that but the PC has been doing the very same thing for years now.

People are so quick to jump on the hate bandwagon that it worries me.

You are forgetting the first guy is still getting the game for free (or close to it). There is nothing stopping him from buying, installing then returning. Then what? The next guy has to play it off the disc?

A disc is good for 1 install on 1 500GB HDD. How many AAA games could 500GB hold? Eventually you'd need to delete older ones to install newer games; does this mean they're gonna try to charge customers to play the game that they themselves already bought brand-new at full price?

Forget resale. Can I even play the same game twice?

It also says that this is account-based. So odds are, it will work like Steam, keeping track of all of the games you purchased, whether they are installed right now or not.

My question is more to "What about multi-user homes?" We've got a generation right now where every member of a household has their own account, with their own achievements, friends, and history. I don't think you'll entice too many people to buy the activation for each family member who wants to play the game you've already paid $60 for.

Well obviously they're going to have "Family Bundles" Where they rip you off in an entirely new way that is unfathomable at this point, I sense bad things ahead but hopefully i'm wrong.

OT: I don't like this at all, I really like trying before I buy or even just borrowing games that I don't have like Disgaea 3 for my Vita currently. I occasionally get the urge to play games and I don't like having to buy a game to just sate that urge which would totally fuck me over it sounds in this scenario

Fappy:The bullet's in the chamber. Will they shoot themselves in the foot?

I'd say there's bullets in all the chambers. One for one foot, one for the other, one for each leg, one for the gut, and one for the head.

I want this to fail so hard that the industry crashes and starts being run by the Indies.

And cost many many people their jobs in the process! YAY!

Seriously, why would anyone WANT the industry to crash?? Regardless of how you feel about things right now, that just seems incredibly selfish.

OT: Well, either way, I don't plan to buy this console. I'll probably just settle for the PS4 and possibly a better computer so I can get more into PC gaming.

Sure there will be a lot of people hurt, but guess what we got out of the last crash? Nintendo as we know it.

I want a crash to force the industry to re-examine its priorities.

It's like a forest fire. Sure it's tragic and destructive, but in the long run, it does so many good things for the forest that we can't honestly say it's a bad thing.

And similarly, the game industry is like an overgrown forest in DESPERATE need of a cleansing fire to get rid of all the dead shit below and all the suffocating canopy above that prevents new ideas from being born and living.

I really don't have enough middle fingers to give these guys at this point. I'm really glad we're all of the same mind when it comes to the Xbone (hysterical name!) but I fear sales from the uninformed and uncaring general consumers could send the wrong message to these Xbone heads (see what I did there?). So I say anyone caught buying this abomination to gaming should be tied to a post, have the console wrestled from their hands and traded in for a PC to send them home with. And I never used to be a PC gamer until the last several months. This cements my transition.

Nowhere Man:I really don't have enough middle fingers to give these guys at this point. I'm really glad we're all of the same mind when it comes to the Xbone (hysterical name!) but I fear sales from the uninformed and uncaring general consumers could send the wrong message to these Xbone heads (see what I did there?). So I say anyone caught buying this abomination to gaming should be tied to a post, have the console wrestled from their hands and traded in for a PC to send them home with. And I never used to be a PC gamer until the last several months. This cements my transition.

I literally did the exact thing you did with transitioning to PC. And I feel the exact same way.

On second hand games: you buy disc, it installs, you play from HD. Sell disc, it installs to new console and deactivates your install.— Jon Hicks (@MrJonty) May 21, 2013

How does it know that you've actually sold the disk and didn't just give the disk to a friend to pay for another (hopefully cheaper) copy? Does this mean that every time you install it to another account and pay for it, the previous copy is gone?

And now, there will be no fee to install the game? Huh?

@paulmitchell80 Great question! Again, there is no fee to install the game. Your friend will not pay a fee. ^BA— Xbox Support (1-5) (@XboxSupport) May 21, 2013

What the heck is Microsoft doing? Can anyone decipher what they are trying to tell us?

edit: so there won't be a fee? You just have to install it to your hard drive every time you switch accounts? It's not as bad but it's still going to be really really annoying and time consuming.

I'd say there's bullets in all the chambers. One for one foot, one for the other, one for each leg, one for the gut, and one for the head.

I want this to fail so hard that the industry crashes and starts being run by the Indies.

And cost many many people their jobs in the process! YAY!

Seriously, why would anyone WANT the industry to crash?? Regardless of how you feel about things right now, that just seems incredibly selfish.

OT: Well, either way, I don't plan to buy this console. I'll probably just settle for the PS4 and possibly a better computer so I can get more into PC gaming.

Sure there will be a lot of people hurt, but guess what we got out of the last crash? Nintendo as we know it.

I want a crash to force the industry to re-examine its priorities.

It's like a forest fire. Sure it's tragic and destructive, but in the long run, it does so many good things for the forest that we can't honestly say it's a bad thing.

And similarly, the game industry is like an overgrown forest in DESPERATE need of a cleansing fire to get rid of all the dead shit below and all the suffocating canopy above that prevents new ideas from being born and living.

You're assuming that a crash is automatically going to fix everything. While it is true that Nintendo rose from the ashes of the last crash, it's kinda unlikely that the same kind of thunder is going to strike twice.

Who knows though? Maybe that kind of thing will happen. Although at this point in time, it's all just speculation. And I'm rather hesitant to place my bets on something that's only speculated about.

Verrrrry good question. I don't keep all that many games (I like the trade in deal at Gamestop too much) but the ones I do keep I like playing over and over again with a significant time lapse in between playthroughs.

I've reinstalled KOTOR on at least three crappy laptops over the years. I replayed Oblivion about three months ago. If I had to pay for those 'privilages' I don't think I'd be gaming any more.

Seriously, why would anyone WANT the industry to crash?? Regardless of how you feel about things right now, that just seems incredibly selfish.

OT: Well, either way, I don't plan to buy this console. I'll probably just settle for the PS4 and possibly a better computer so I can get more into PC gaming.

Sure there will be a lot of people hurt, but guess what we got out of the last crash? Nintendo as we know it.

I want a crash to force the industry to re-examine its priorities.

It's like a forest fire. Sure it's tragic and destructive, but in the long run, it does so many good things for the forest that we can't honestly say it's a bad thing.

And similarly, the game industry is like an overgrown forest in DESPERATE need of a cleansing fire to get rid of all the dead shit below and all the suffocating canopy above that prevents new ideas from being born and living.

You're assuming that a crash is automatically going to fix everything. While it is true that Nintendo rose from the ashes of the last crash, it's kinda unlikely that the same kind of thunder is going to strike twice.

Who knows though? Maybe that kind of thing will happen. Although at this point in time, it's all just speculation. And I'm rather hesitant to place my bets on something that's only speculated about.

I did not assume a crash could fix everything. It would be a slow process, but things would get better than they are. And with so much time between crashes and so much happening, I believe that it's highly likely another Nintendo could grow from the ashes.

Ever heard of a company called Valve? Nintendo started as something other than a console manufacturer, developer, and publisher, Valve has hardware in the works and they're already 2/3 of the way there.

CJ1145:I often take multiplayer games to my friends' houses so we can play them there. Since lugging my Xbox around is dumb as shit, I just carry the disk.

Someone care to tell me why this new system is screwing me and my friends over when we're using the product as (presumably) intended?

Because FUCK YOUAlso, because money

Seriously, this is so painfully anti-consumer that I still have to wait until it's completely confirmed because it's just mind-boggling evil. News are still flying around high and low so I'm waiting until the dust settles to see what is actually true but if this is true there's no way in hell I'll get an anti-consumer multimedia... THING that doesn't let me play shit until I recite the Microsoft pledge and do the corresponding MS dance in front of the Always-On-Kinect (also pay extra money)

*Looks at game pile*20 disks; thirteen loaners from mates, seven purchased from what tiny tiny cash flow I possess.Bollocks, well there goes that method.

Honestly though, I can't see this being a big problem. I just need to stop this annoying habit of buying games while out with a mate and then popping it in his console to have a look because I left mine at home. If it happens to be an anticipated game that we both really want to see... STIFF... It'll have to wait until I've returned home to installed the game first.

Also a little sketchy on the whole 'game must be repurchased and re-downloaded for each individual account on the machine'.

Other than that, seems like a fair system. Not that it really matters, my wallet is destined for the PS4 anyway, but nice to finally hear some of the Xbox rumors put to bed.

SonOfVoorhees:I dont think its all that bad, depends on the price they will charge for playing a pre owned game. If its a few pounds its not that big a deal if you bought the game for £10. Although, for me, most of the games i play are rentals from Lovefilm and i only buy new games if they are something i really want.

I guess we will have to wait and see.

Don't quote me on this, but it's looking like that the 'fee' will be equivalent to the price of the actual game. In essence they will have to buy the game for download, not just have a friend borrow it.

SonOfVoorhees:I dont think its all that bad, depends on the price they will charge for playing a pre owned game. If its a few pounds its not that big a deal if you bought the game for £10. Although, for me, most of the games i play are rentals from Lovefilm and i only buy new games if they are something i really want.

I guess we will have to wait and see.

Full price from all accounts. That's right, full price for a pre-owned game. Wait and see if you like, I've decided unless they retract some of these "features" and put in ones we would like to see (backwards compatibility, no pre-owned pay wall, no required online, no mandatory online gaming pass to play over the internet) then I'm sure as hell not getting one. Looks like it's PS4 or PC for me, good thing I got a friend who can build me a decent PC for $1000 or so.

I'm not totally against this if that "fee" goes to the developers of the game

lol. You are joking right?MS might split some of the money with the publishers (especially in the case of EA, who just happened to drop their online pass plan) but none of that is really going to trickle down to the devs.

If their whole fee system follows any sort of logic (And this is Microsoft, so there's no certainty that it will, although it isn't exactly unlikely), then I think this is how it will work:The game itself will require data to be installed onto the HDD. after this mandatory install, the game can optionally be played on the account without the disc for a small fee (I'm talking £5 here, maybe less). For the sake of simplicity, we'll call this account a "disc-less account". Each disc comes with one free "No-disc install" for the original owner. Should the disc be inserted into the console, it can be played without a "disc-less account," so my brother can still play on his account without the fee, via playing straight from the disc as I still own it.If, for example, I bought the New CoD, I would install it on my XBOne and my account could play it without the disc at no charge. I could then purchase the ability to play without a disc on my brother's account, and take the game with me to a friend's house. He would then be able to play on the game via the disc without paying, and my brother can then play with us by launching the game without the disc from out XBOne back home. When I take the game back home, my friend can no longer play unless he chooses to also purchased the ability to play without a disc. So in reality, it just means that I'd be able to give the game to my friend at a decreased price, without having to lose the game myself.

Of course, knowing Microsoft, they'll probably charge as much as the game itself to stop people doing this, making the whole system moot as far as I'm concerned. Or possibly, the prices will be set by the devs of the game themselves.