No group in human history has been tried as we have. No heart so wounded. No heart so strong. No heart so tried and true.

I'd say Jews have been through as much or worse. But I do agree gays have had to endure some of the most trials of any group in human history.

The irony is I'm both.

The bigger irony is that he is, too.

haha. Now all I need is a black lover and the triad of the tried is complete.

I get your point Fiyero but even going back 1000s of years, from what little I know of all that history--and I could be absolutely wrong in this, I'm guessing at most of it, as probably do historians--it seems to me that oppression against Jewish people was more intermittent. Of course, lives-wise, Egypt and the holocaust probably bumped those stats, but I'm hoping that was only an anomaly every 3500 years or so. And probably they were forced to move around more wereas we were probably just shut in where we were.

Judged based upon consistancy of oppression, even if it was at times and due to circumstances (our ability to hide in place, for instance) subtle, I think you'd be hard pressed to find another group as tried as we. Just since early Judeo/Christianity alone, you've got a few 1000 years of the so-called abomination--and lets get real here, that's probably regardless of how modern people try to justify some misread of the word. Based upon how ingrained seems homophobia, it seems hard to not summise that the anomaly here probably has been periods of our acceptance within society at large.

There seems indication that we've been treated like shit for a long time (even before the patriarchal religions kicked in)...

No group in human history has been tried as we have. No heart so wounded. No heart so strong. No heart so tried and true.

I'd say Jews have been through as much or worse. But I do agree gays have had to endure some of the most trials of any group in human history.

The irony is I'm both.

...Gays have been largely accepted by non western cultures. We definitely haven't gotten the short straw.

I look forward to your furnishing evidence of gay singles and couples being treated as equals (you know, not just something on the side) to their heterosexual counterparts throughout human history. I googled various continents but outside of some ancient Greek man/boy action which I don't even consider gay, and some intermittent, sort of vague and seemingly conditional periods of acceptance here and there, I couldn't find much to back your assertion.

Google also didn't seem to know where Jewish people are forbidden to marry each other.

So they might have been, continue in places today to be, an oppressed people. But we are oppressed as not even being people. Their humanity might get trampled upon. But ours is not even recognized.

Though I realize I'm only experiencing my little slice of life, during it, I have never felt oppressed as a Jewish person while I have always felt oppression for being a gay man.

Huckabee's showing his true colors here. The irony is that Huckabee was a big fundraiser for Romney/Ryan, with his primary goal being to inject his far right religious hate into GOP policy, which included a Constitutional amendment limiting marriage to unions b/t one man and one woman (while also forbidding same sex civil unions).

With Obama's re-election comes another kick in the arse for Huckabee: a far right SCOTUS that would have guaranteed the passage of right-wing policies for decades to come is now out the window.

A wolf in sheep's clothing, he's only singing a different tune because his party lost by signifcant margins the vast majority of elections where he and his ilk poured the most money.

Huckabee is fully aware of all of this and, like a true sociopath, he's adapting. Make no bones about it, Huckabee plans to run in the next Republican presidential primary. He needs to shift his position if he wants a chance at securing even a fraction of the 'minority' vote.

paulflexes saidYou can blame me for that. Mike has been a friend of my family for years. Last year I told them to tell him to STFU about his anti-gay shit or GTFO of our lives.

It amazes he how Arkansas elected him and they also elected Clinton. Can you say polar opposites!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not opposites, it's just different times. Ever heard of the political pendulum? It's just like that. Votes swing back between the two parties over the years. It's a pattern proven thoughout history.

No group in human history has been tried as we have. No heart so wounded. No heart so strong. No heart so tried and true.

I'd say Jews have been through as much or worse. But I do agree gays have had to endure some of the most trials of any group in human history.

The irony is I'm both.

Agreed. Maybe also African slaves. But gay people have been universally discriminated against all over the world and even within their own cultures and families. Family members aren't going to mistreat their relatives because of their race they were born with or religion they grew up with.

No group in human history has been tried as we have. No heart so wounded. No heart so strong. No heart so tried and true.

I'd say Jews have been through as much or worse. But I do agree gays have had to endure some of the most trials of any group in human history.

The irony is I'm both.

Agreed. Maybe also African slaves. But gay people have been universally discriminated against all over the world and even within their own cultures and families. Family members aren't going to mistreat their relatives because of their race they were born with or religion they grew up with.

I believe you have more substantiated my point than the opposing view you say you agree with. How endemic an oppression that, as you rightfully note, rips apart families, wrenches adherents from religions, pries apart communities with politics (ever visit the news forum?). It's not really considered mercy when your torturer lets you live one more day only to be tormented again the next.

While we can't avoid noticing periodic attempts at genocide and including that into the who-in-history-was-oppressed-the-most equation, you also have to consider what's more oppressive, stepping on a fly or pulling its wings off and enjoying it hobble through life.

Sure black people are still oppressed and had it very rough for a while there, but they're relatively new to outside oppression, since when, colonialism? Hardly even a mere 1000 years while we've been purposely excluded, kicked out of our families, just about the biggest horror imaginable, at least since Adam and not Steve excluded us from the Garden Club. Hell, Moses & Osiris myths probably go back at least 4-5 thousand years. Blacks and Jews? They've got a lot of catching up to do to make up for our time lost to oppression.