The ORIGINAL gathering place for a merry band of Three Percenters. (As denounced by Bill Clinton on CNN!)

Saturday, October 10, 2009

Clayton's rejoinder.

He still doesn't get it. You guys dissect it. I've got a gun show to go to.

MikeIII

Have you noticed the progress we've made working through the system the last 25 years? I have. In 1990, the prospect that we would ever see gun control laws struck by the U.S. Supreme Court seemed remote. And it wasn't because our arguments back then were weak. They were because we didn't have the political influence we needed to appoint sympathetic justices.

The more you talk about civil war, the more likely you are drive people that are sympathetic to gun rights into the opposing camp. This makes civil war more likely, not less likely.

Progress? Progress?! Over the last several decades Americans are expected to: relinquish personal privacy and dignity in all airports/federal and state buildings, not protest any abortion facility (murder of innocents), lay back quietly if a mistaken (or not mistaken) warrantless home invasion occurs by masked armed uniformed thugs, respond quietly and meekly to all questions if stopped on the roadside by uniformed thugs, allow unknown warrantless taps on my communications (phone, computer, etc) by the Leviathan whenever they want to do so and I will not necessarily know they are doing so, and etc, etc, etc. Progress. Hogwash. We Americans have relinquished so much of our freedoms to the State we are now expected to be subservient. Our abject obedience during any interaction with the State and its uniformed thugs is expected. If you do not think so next time you interact with TSA, you try questioning them when you see them frisking down a fellow American - - perhaps like the pregnant women being forced to show her breasts and belly, or the elderly Congressional Medal of Honor vet being rousted because of the sharpness on the medal he is wearing(real examples, by the way). Unless you are willfully ignorant the myriad of examples are easily found through email searches or personal experience (any free living American increasingly clashes with these encroaching State imposed bars - if you don't it is because you are living meekly). All is mentioned so you understand there is no stopping the purposeful, steady progress of turning us into servile subjects. Unless we use firearms. Yes, Clayton the meek, firearms. No State or its uniformed thugs have EVER removed its iron heel from the necks of its subjects until enough of them have been killed. Study your history. Stop being ignorant. We need informed, determined, preparing, hard Americans for what is coming. Not apologists.

Apparently Crammer thinks that the best medicine for tyranny is appeasement.He believes Heller was some kind of victory.(Are they Open Carrying in DC now, 'cause I must have missed that news report?)He must believe to the core of his soul that begging and pleading for our 'rights' is what we need and should do.“Mr. V. Please, OH PLEASE, don’t speak of civil war! Sarah Brady might stop inviting me to those swank and sophisticated cocktail parties.”Crammer is a vile and disgusting PRAG.

The less likely the OpFor has for a plain concession, the less bold they will be in their demands. We are fighting for our lives/families/homes and future, they are fighting for a discredited foreign idea or are mercenary criminals who see opportunity.

Waco, and Ruby Ridge ocurred during that time frame. Was that "progress" too? Me, I don't give a hoot in hell how many Fudds, Zumbos, and chickens run into the opposing camp. All I care about is the people with guts who stay in mine. GFY.

Understanding that secession does not necessarily mean civil war and that civil/ revolutionary war is the ultimate right of the free man against a despotic government is inherent to understanding and practicing your rights. what is truly sad is not that people believe civil war to be immoral, but that they do not even (obviously) understand the very foundations of this great nation.

Here is an article I wrote recently regarding how "constitutional" it is is to discuss secession.

Let me guess.... Clayton Cramer was one of the first Prags to rejoice over the Heller decision. I can see him now, arm in arm with his buddy Wayne LaPierre jumping up and down in their urine filled kiddy pool - just splashing away, exclaiming wee, wee, wee, as they urinate all over each other!

We call this "Battered Gunowner Syndrome", and it's fallacious. Emboldening our enemies by our silence in order to refrain from scaring off a few fence-sitters is a bad bargain. People need to choose their side, and if they're inclined to choose the antis when the heat is on, better to know it now than when the chips are down.

Civil war as a necessary outcome of warning about civil war? Hardly. That is like saying discussions about obesity cause people to get fat.

Puhleeese!

American Patriots are advising the people who wish to infringe our rights further (in the interest of aggrandizing more power unto themselves) that we have had enough. Actually, that they have gone too far and need to back up a bit.

Pointing out the logical conclusion of a failure to respect our position is not the same as agitating for the result. It is a warning. Nothing more or less.

Mr. Cramer would do well to recognize that incremental compromise with tyrants about our fundamental rights has gotten us to the point we are at now. 50 years ago, the discussions we regularly have today about our freedoms would have been laughed at as impossible in a free country.

Have the truths about freedom changed? Or, has our willingness to embrace infringements, in the interest of comity, clouded our judgment about what freedom truly means?

I state it is the latter that we currently experience. And I urgently call my fellow citizens to embrace the former...the once-understood, fundamental truths about freedom and liberty.

QUOTE The more you talk about civil war, the more likely you are drive people that are sympathetic to gun rights into the opposing camp. This makes civil war more likely, not less likely. QUOTE

Actually, John Ross' "Unintended Consequences", published in 1996 gave the gun rights movement a great amount of much needed strength. When that book was published, people all over the country were introduced to the Threeper ideology for the first time. It literally scared the living daylights out of the most hardline advocates for gun control, because they realized that the people who they are trying to control will not submit so easily, and if they try to force them to, things can turn downright nasty.

And then, we had "Black Arrow", published in 2000??* which gave the whole libertarian movement great support, just like "V For Vendetta" did.

Increasing probability of civil war a GOOD THING as only alternative is a HORRORSHOW making Adolf Stalin PolPot and all the other murdering scum of History look like a practice event at the GirlScouts ,(before THEY started working with DHS and FederalBureau of Incineration, as snitches with the iWatch program)An overview of whatsUP is very not good and the only ones not asleep at the switch are the Constitutionalists.....Figure it out.Mercy does not function from a position of Weakness and Defeat and Cowardice,nor does FREEDOM

Clayton is using the old "Flea Training" system. Get a bunch of fleas in a jar. Put a glass pane over the top. In a week or two take the glass off. The fleas have presumably learned not to jump higher than the jar wall. I tell people this when they ask me, "Why do you need to carry a gun?" Because I'm not a trained fleas, that's why.

Um, actually no.We live in a roughly democratic country and the center is defined by the fringes. So, the more radical we are, so long as we remain reasonable, the more moderates will move in our direction in the long term.

In short, compromise between the two sides is bound to happen, you want to take the most extreme position you can, so that when compromise happens, it will be more to your benefit.

just looks like another fella who believes liberty can be won through a system -- once simpler, now thoroughly convoluted -- which has demonstrated in only 200+ years that it is insufficient to secure the liberty which had already been won.

What if the government had taken away all of Clayton's keyboard keys back in 1970 and he had to fight to get them back one by one? Suppose he now has letters A through J restored to his keyboard, but is that really progress? It's still an infringement imposed upon him by domestic enemies of the Constitution!

I don't buy the argument that talking about civil war drives gun-rights sympathizers (or freedom lovers or anyone else) into the Constitutional domestic enemy camp. If anything they will want to be on the winning side when the SHTF, not the side which promotes disarmament and infringements upon our freedoms and liberties.

The alternative of not discussing the possibility of civil war is to remain silent about it. That would only embolden domestic enemies to infringe upon our rights even more. Bullies continue to do what they do until someone stands up to them. We do no one any favors by avoiding discussion of this issue as in doing so we are sounding a warning like a rattlesnake. We are saying, "Don't tread on me and you won't suffer the consequences."

one other point: who says open carry is truly a disturbing behavior? what studies is clayton pointing to? or is he just taking the mainstream media's reaction on its face?

he might be right, that open carry to a moonbat weenie is the equivalent of the "kiss-in," or some raunchy gay pride parade, to a socially conservative man of years such as himself. the key word, of course, is might. it only seems conceptually valid; there's no evidence to back up the logic. so i say the jury is still out on that.

and even if that's true, why does it necessarily dictate that someone should change their behavior? maybe you just don't belong in san francisco, mr. cramer -- and maybe msnbc anchors don't belong in america.

Yes, it was a razor-thin majority. And if keeping our rights means depending on sympathetic justices, we are screwed when Justice Kennedy retires. Once we lose that swing vote with the anointed messiah in office, all of the so-called progress he thinks we made goes out the window.

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Everyone should grow up with simulated equipment from a heavy weapons platoon. It gives you a more well rounded education and an appreciation for the finer things in life. -- Sergeant Matthew Vanderboegh, United States Army.

"Progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress."

I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air – that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave. -- H.L. Mencken

On the efficacy of passive resistance in the face of the collectivist beast. . .

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

In the future . . .

When the histories are written, “National Rifle Association” will be cross-referenced with “Judenrat.” -- Mike Vanderboegh to Sebastian at "Snowflakes in Hell"

"Smash the bloody mirror."

If you find yourself through the looking glass, where the verities of the world you knew and loved no longer apply, there is only one thing to do. Knock the Red Queen on her ass, turn around, and smash the bloody mirror. -- Mike Vanderboegh

From Kurt Hoffman over at Armed and Safe.

"I believe that being despised by the despicable is as good as being admired by the admirable."

From long experience myself, I can only say, "You betcha."

"Only cowards dare cringe."

The fears of man are many. He fears the shadow of death and the closed doors of the future. He is afraid for his friends and for his sons and of the specter of tomorrow. All his life's journey he walks in the lonely corridors of his controlled fears, if he is a man. For only fools will strut, and only cowards dare cringe. -- James Warner Bellah, "Spanish Man's Grave" in Reveille, Curtis Publishing, 1947.

"We fight an enemy that never sleeps."

"As our enemies work bit by bit to deconstruct, we must work bit by bit to REconstruct. Be mindful where we should be. Set goals. We fight an enemy that never sleeps. We must learn to sleep less." -- Mike H. at What McAuliffe Said

"The Fate of Unborn Millions. . ."

"The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their Houses, and Farms, are to be pillaged and destroyed, and they consigned to a State of Wretchedness from which no human efforts will probably deliver them. The fate of unborn Millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this army-Our cruel and unrelenting Enemy leaves us no choice but a brave resistance, or the most abject submission; that is all we can expect-We have therefore to resolve to conquer or die." -- George Washington to his troops before the Battle of Long Island.

"We will not go gently . . ."

This is no small thing, to restore a republic after it has fallen into corruption. I have studied history for years and I cannot recall it ever happening. It may be that our task is impossible. Yet, if we do not try then how will we know it can't be done? And if we do not try, it most certainly won't be done. The Founders' Republic, and the larger war for western civilization, will be lost.

But I tell you this: We will not go gently into that bloody collectivist good night. Indeed, we will make with our defiance such a sound as ALL history from that day forward will be forced to note, even if they despise us in the writing of it.

And when we are gone, the scattered, free survivors hiding in the ruins of our once-great republic will sing of our deeds in forbidden songs, tending the flickering flame of individual liberty until it bursts forth again, as it must, generations later. We will live forever, like the Spartans at Thermopylae, in sacred memory.

-- Mike Vanderboegh, The Lessons of Mumbai:Death Cults, the "Socialism of Imbeciles" and Refusing to Submit, 1 December 2008

"A common language of resistance . . ."

"Colonial rebellions throughout the modern world have been acts of shared political imagination. Unless unhappy people develop the capacity to trust other unhappy people, protest remains a local affair easily silenced by traditional authority. Usually, however, a moment arrives when large numbers of men and women realize for the first time that they enjoy the support of strangers, ordinary people much like themselves who happen to live in distant places and whom under normal circumstances they would never meet. It is an intoxicating discovery. A common language of resistance suddenly opens to those who are most vulnerable to painful retribution the possibility of creating a new community. As the conviction of solidarity grows, parochial issues and aspirations merge imperceptibly with a compelling national agenda which only a short time before may have been the dream of only a few. For many Americans colonists this moment occurred late in the spring of 1774." -- T.H. Breen, The Marketplace of Revolution: How Consumer Politics Shaped American Independence, Oxford University Press, 2004, p.1.