Re: "Bombay Mahogany" color

TWO things are happening, and they're the same two things that always seem to happen.

The first is that a couple of guys like to bash Minwax (or poly.. take your pick). And ya know.... they're actually bashable. There really ARE better products out there. But unfortunately, these couple of guys like to take the harshest possible method of making that point and that ham-fisted method that they choose to use gets in the way of the message that they're trying to convey.

The second thign is that there are folks who just seem.... for whatever reason.... to not want to even entertain the notion that there may be products out there in the marketplace that just might work better than the stuff they've been using.

WHY?

Is it because the message was delivered with that ham fist? Or is it the case that their minds are made up and they don't want to be confused with messages to the contrary?

I don't know. All I do know is that this conversation needs to be put back on track.

We have a communications breakdown on both the sending side as well as the receiving side.

Re: "Bombay Mahogany" color

I was merely pointing out a way that the OP could use existing products on-hand to "colour" an existing wood, also on hand. There are many ways to "colour" wood, each has it's own merits. Some are familiar with Minwax products, some with other systems. Kind of a "toss of the coin" sort of thing. IF the OP wants to try something different, that is HIS call alone. Although, things would go alot "smoother" around here without the "USUAL, AND EXPECTED minwax bash as part of any reply. If one "hates" the product, that's their business, no need to be "campaigning", or "crusading" about it. Can it be done? Nah, no fun that way.

Re: "Bombay Mahogany" color

I agree a little bit with what you say, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. All of the furniture images I have posted recently in the General Woodworking forum that I have designed and built are finished totally with Minwax products. Yes, I have tried them all and still like Minwax the best. A few years ago, Woodcraft had me do a comparison study between Minwax and another brand with no significant results. Yes, I was totally objective.

Does that make me a monster? A bird with it's head in the sand? I let my images tell the story.

You have identified the problem, one that has been with us for a long time and mentioned many times before, especially from the other Steve, but the problem still exists.

Re: "Bombay Mahogany" color

I don't think there is a right way to put on a finish or a wrong way. Just like there is no right joint or wrong joint. If I like mortise and tenon and someone else likes to use pocket screws for joining the same two pieces of wood together, so be it. Neither of us is right or wrong.

If a person doesn't want to change his or her way of finishing, leave them alone. If they want to try something else they will eventually try something else. If they don't then so be it.

For some, the DIY finishes do just as much as is required and no more. It's a choice based on need and desire for how in depth you'd like to get. If this stuff does what you want, then fantastic! Keep on using it to get the results you like.

For the chemistry set crowd (I fondly say, tongue in cheek....) this notion of all-in-one-can is deconstructed. Rather than letting a factory decide what components they'd like to use, they're more into home brewing a solution. And that's perfectly valid, too. If it takes custom blends of things to make them happy and to achieve the results that they're going for, then that's good too.

Neither side is UNIVERSALLY right and neither side is UNIVERSALLY wrong. It comes down to the expectations that they each have for the pieces that they're building.

Here we have an OP who's expecting that a color match to existing Bombay mahogany furniture be found. Those are his expectations. And he's using walnut. I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that the homebrew crowd will probably provide a solution that will yield a blendable and tonable - and thus closer - look than somebody who's hoping/praying that what comes from one can will get them where they want to be. Call me crazy here, but that's my call based on work exactly like this that I do several times per year.

It's all a matter of expectations. One size does not fit all. Nor should it be expected to.

As for the DIY products, they exist to serve a perceived need. Whether it successfully performs that job or not is once again relating to expectations. Some expect it to do exactly what it does and therefore can call that good. They get what they want. OKfine.

Hmmmm..... they get what they want and then scratch their heads when somebody says that it's got a failing. I see this point.

Others expect different results/performance from a finishing schedule, and so they take a different path than the DIY products. Since their expectations are different than can be achieved from the DIY products they have developed their own mixtures, brews and schedules. They've deviated from the DIY path in order to get what they want and so demonstrate open..... distain.... for the path they've left behind. I also see this point.

Regrettably, each side sees the other in an unflattering light, much having to do with the method of how they've worded their posts.

So with this summary, can we PLEASE have some sort of handshake? Each has their own expectations of what a finish is, what it does and how it behaves. If an all-in-one solution does it for you, God bless and have at it. And on the other hand, if mixing and blending is what it takes to get you there..... fantastic. Have fun.

Expectations. It's what it all comes down to.

As for the pejorative commentary from page 1... stow that, if you please. It's inappropriate for a gentlemanly forum.

Re: "Bombay Mahogany" color

The second thign is that there are folks who just seem.... for whatever reason.... to not want to even entertain the notion that there may be products out there in the marketplace that just might work better than the stuff they've been using.

I WAS going to shut up, but, please find just one time that I've ever said that I ONLY use poly or a time when I've bashed anything that the gurus have suggested using. Yes, when the first post to any questions concerning poly refers to it being junk I take offense.

NOBODY that isn't sitting in front of the pieces the op is refering to can tell them exactly how to make it work, just give suggestions. The best advice I can give anyone on finishing is forget the bias, get some scrap, get a few different finishes, and experiment. That is the only way you can find a finish that you like the end result of and that you like to apply.

Re: "Bombay Mahogany" color

Certainly we all recognize the problem, but Matt I disagree with you a little. Those that are against poly and minwax, trash the process / product / system, or whatever word you want to use. But there are several here who support poly and minwax (their right to do so) that resort to trashing the person who is against poly or minwax. I have no problem with those who like minwax or poly expressing their opinion, but to call the other side pretentious, etc. is a personal attack that does not belong on the forum. If minwax or poly works for these folks then continue to use it, but quick attacking the other side and let some us learn what they have to offer. I know people that have used a table saw for 20 years without a guard or splitter and it has worked for them - does that mean that the rest of us should not express what we know to be right that they should use their guard and splitter - should we keep quiet? Also, my research of those who have published books on finishing (i.e. Flexnor) would be more in line with the weaknesses of poly.

Again, I have no problem with the users of poly and minwax expressing their experiences, but the other side should be free to express their side as well without being personally attacked.

Re: "Bombay Mahogany" color

You're right on the money, Mike. I didn't get to that on purpose, but I'm glad that you did.

We, as a group, have developed something of a bad habit. We seem to like to call the individuals out because of their choices. And if somebody makes a choice that we wouldn't have made (er... based on expectations once again....) then the knee-jerk reaction is to call somebody a name.

And by the way: the name calling has been going in both directions.

I have already begun tapping a few individuals on the shoulder, via our spiffy new PM system, and have been suggesting that they may want to stop poking at the people in a pugnacious manner. This started a month or two back. Expect it to continue.

We can respect our fellow members and still make our points without poking one another with sharp sticks, can't we?

Re: "Bombay Mahogany" color

I WAS going to shut up, but, please find just one time that I've ever said that I ONLY use poly or a time when I've bashed anything that the gurus have suggested using. Yes, when the first post to any questions concerning poly refers to it being junk I take offense.

NOBODY that isn't sitting in front of the pieces the op is refering to can tell them exactly how to make it work, just give suggestions. The best advice I can give anyone on finishing is forget the bias, get some scrap, get a few different finishes, and experiment. That is the only way you can find a finish that you like the end result of and that you like to apply.

I agree with you... up to a point.

Yes, you're 'zactly right with the concept that nobody can tell them exactly how to make it work for them, for their piece and to match their expectations. And that's chiefly because we often can't narrow down what the expectations actually are.

But notice that that question DOES get asked quite a lot. Many frequent posters often ask this question. And when the answer comes back they taylor the answer to match the expectations.

HOWEVER... if the OP of a given post has asked how to do something very particular with the finishing schedule then that does VALIDLY open up the conversation to homebrewing many aspects of the finishing schedule. And for that question, in that instance, there just may be a possibility that the homebrew solution will address the needs better than an all-in-one-can solution.

YES, we have a problem with the words that we choose to use in our posts. And that is unfortunate.

But please don't confuse that with how valid the given information may actually be.

Poly is NOT crap. Minwax is NOT crap. They both have their uses, they both have their place. But please note that their uses aren't universal and may not work in all applications for all situations. BE OPEN to the notion that growing beyond these products may serve the immediate need better, and that you might accidentally learn something in the process.

I know I have. I used to be an all-in-one-can kind of a guy, too (except for Polyshades - ask me separately sometime about my hate for that can). Now.... sometimes I use the yellow cans and quart containers of wipe-on poly, sometimes I don't. It's all situational. And there's no pride lost in the process.

Re: "Bombay Mahogany" color

Ah yes, the "yellow can" thing. While I've used the yellow can alot, I also tend to blend different "cans" to get a specific flavour that I might be looking for. Sometimes, straight from the can works, other times a more blended approach will work. I can also thin the "Witch's Brew" as needed ( pine would take and different "level" than say Oak) , or "strain" out the "lumpy" parts to get just the non-pigment part of a particular stain. Home brew? In a way, yes. All the yellow can provides me with is a STARTING POINT when staining a project. Sometimes, in order for different woods that are in the same project to match in colour, I'll make a "stain" for each wood. The end result would be a match throughout the project. Again, not so much the Brand, but HOW one uses a brand.