i had never heard of the term before, but i did a search and now i know what it means. in fact i have used it sometimes to be lowered cleaning overhangs (lowering off my own gear, i have friends who dont like preplaced draws )

Even with a tram it can be a pain in the @ss to clean some overhanging routes, which is why many routes have permanent or preplaced draws on those sections. I would never dream of asking my belayer to pull me into those routes while rapping

i had never heard of the term before, but i did a search and now i know what it means. in fact i have used it sometimes to be lowered cleaning overhangs (lowering off my own gear, i have friends who dont like preplaced draws )

Even with a tram it can be a pain in the @ss to clean some overhanging routes, which is why many routes have permanent or preplaced draws on those sections. I would never dream of asking my belayer to pull me into those routes while rapping

haha, thats another thing i wish we could do here. im sure "permanent draws" would get stolen in less than a month!!! we have had anchors stolen, from routes without a top out!!! so there is no way they could have walked to the top, lean over and unbolt them. the thief had to be a climber. how he lowered from that route, i cannot say...

i had never heard of the term before, but i did a search and now i know what it means. in fact i have used it sometimes to be lowered cleaning overhangs (lowering off my own gear, i have friends who dont like preplaced draws )

oh I forgot. You lame asses are primarily talking about clipping bolts, and apparently your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it. I forgot that all you gym weenies just clip bolts. My bad. Just expecxt to get your ass handed to you if you are found toproping and lowering off of fixed anchors, (which shouldn't be there in the first place).

oh I forgot. You lame asses are primarily talking about clipping bolts, and apparently your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it. I forgot that all you gym weenies just clip bolts. My bad. Just expecxt to get your ass handed to you if you are found toproping and lowering off of fixed anchors, (which shouldn't be there in the first place).

oh I forgot. You lame asses are primarily talking about clipping bolts, and apparently your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it. I forgot that all you gym weenies just clip bolts. My bad. Just expecxt to get your ass handed to you if you are found toproping and lowering off of fixed anchors, (which shouldn't be there in the first place).

RR

I thought that dinosaurs were extinct.

Jay

If you were a pretty blond, adolescent girl with low standards I'd totally marry you.

oh I forgot. You lame asses are primarily talking about clipping bolts, and apparently your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it. I forgot that all you gym weenies just clip bolts. My bad. Just expecxt to get your ass handed to you if you are found toproping and lowering off of fixed anchors, (which shouldn't be there in the first place).

RR

Us lame asses are pretty much entirely talking about clipping bolts. The Gunks is kind of a rare situation, with multi-pitch trad climbs in which so many of the routes just get the first pitch gang-toproped off bolted anchors.

Again, you're not really understanding the conditions this thread is referring to when you say "your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it". Most of the time, at sport crags, there is no second. Everyone leads it, and the last person up is responsible for cleaning the route on the way down. The question of the thread is: on rappel, or on lower.

But I agree that in the Gunks, those convenience bolted stations shouldn't even be there. Of course we both know that if they weren't there all kinds of fixed mank would appear in their place. So the bolts are most likely the lesser of two evils anyway.

Dammit Cracklover, why do you have to go and make sense and everything. I was enjoying being villified and hated on.

A Few years ago, I let an air biscuit fly in a situation that did not exactly warrant the unchecked floating of such bodily gasses. I can't recall why I and several others were there. Maybe it was a wedding reception or some such. Suffice to say we were all dressed to the nines -- use your imagination. At that instant, when the conversation stopped and the moment became painfully awkward, I faced a difficult decision. Should I have ignored the... um... event... and continue the conversation despite that everybody knew it was me? Should I have apologized and removed myself to the bathroom? No and no. I did what you just did. I grinned the grin of the self-righteous and said, "That's right, bitches."

Strong showing, sir. I may not enjoy the smell of your opinion, but I wholeheartedly respect where it led.