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Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

I've said it before and will say it again: Mike and Kyle Shanahan are mortgaging the Redskin's future by letting RGIII run. If they want him to be known as someone other than the really talented but always injured guy who was drafted right after Andrew Luck, they better turn him into a pocket passer only. No one runs the option in the NFL for a good reason, it is too gimmicky and can result in substantial injury at the highest level of football. Given their incompetence of the past decade or so, I can see the Redskins screwing this up. People in DC love RGIII and want a ticket tape parade for him now but in their euphoria don't seem to understand the risks of using RGIII like they are using him.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

That's the way to play against a running QB. As soon as he tucks that ball and starts running, he's not a QB anymore (until they slide - wimps). Fair game - just as a running back. There were 0 penalties called on any of the plays he might be referring to. Sure, these bozo-replacement refs could have missed 1 or 2, but if there really was any 'extracurricular' stuff going on, the refs would have been aware of it and looking for it.

He's going to get hit. He's going to get hit hard. He needs to learn either 1) to take it or 2) STFU. Anyone think that any players from the Bengals are going to check up before hitting him this weekend ?? This might just get them going a little bit more. It's a man's game. These guys are bigger, stronger and faster than guys he played against in college. They're working to make a living. Getting a clean hit on the opposing QB is money in the bank for them. Maybe he should wear some super-hero socks so he can survive the hits. Or pink lace ones.

I rambled - you're absolutely right. Game #2 of your career isn't the time to be mouthing off about things. And by the time one has proven them self in the league to be in a position to complain, they'll be old enough and mature enough to understand that one says nothing about it to the media.

Incorrect, Shanny called one of the refs over and *****ed about it, and the ref apologized and said he couldnt see everything that happened under the pile.

You are right, you rambled....-a lot.

I get it, Colts fans has a vested interest in RG3 failing. It started off funny, now its pathetic and a bit comical.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

The Rams took a lot of cheap shots last week, and Fisher all but admitted such after the game (I am surprised there wasnt an all out brawl....another byproduct of ****** games)

That said, you cant ***** about players being physical, even if they are late hits.

The best response is beating the other team.

Yes, there is a whole lot of whining going on. IIRC, Peyton Manning was picked up and thrown on his head well after a play and I don't think we heard this much crying. Imagine the hits Manning would take if he ran with the ball. They would try to knock his head off.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III is the is the recipient of the NFLís September Rookie of the Month Award.

RGIII is a superstar right now. Luck may not be in the top three or four of his draft. I know the line is causing some of this but Luck is causing some of it too. I think everyone knows that I thought the Colts should have taken a boat load of picks and moved down taken RGIII. I thought that before the season started. I am sure of it now......

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

RGIII is a superstar right now. Luck may not be in the top three or four of his draft. I know the line is causing some of this but Luck is causing some of it too. I think everyone knows that I thought the Colts should have taken a boat load of picks and moved down taken RGIII. I thought that before the season started. I am sure of it now......

It's been 3 games man, you can't be sure of anything. You are being ridiculous thinking someone's career is decided so early. Peyton was terrible his first 3 games. Tell me, when he was that terrible, how can you justify him being so great and Luck's career over while Luck is doing 10x better than Peyton? Your arguments are inconsistent.

And feel free to answer my other comment in the other Luck thread.

Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

It's been 3 games man, you can't be sure of anything. You are being ridiculous thinking someone's career is decided so early. Peyton was terrible his first 3 games. Tell me, when he was that terrible, how can you justify him being so great and Luck's career over while Luck is doing 10x better than Peyton? Your arguments are inconsistent.

And feel free to answer my other comment in the other Luck thread.

I was not speaking about Luck so much as I was RGIII. Until Luck gets a line that can give him some time and keep him from running for his life, we won't know what he really has. That won't be this year and probably not next year either. That will be a lot of losing and a big beating for him to take. It ruined David Carr and others. We can only hope for the best and wonder why we went after a franchise QB when we couldn't protect him.....

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

I was not speaking about Luck so much as I was RGIII. Until Luck gets a line that can give him some time and keep him from running for his life, we won't know what he really has. That won't be this year and probably not next year either. That will be a lot of losing and a big beating for him to take. It ruined David Carr and others. We can only hope for the best and wonder why we went after a franchise QB when we couldn't protect him.....

I think you can figure a lot of what Luck has based on what cards he has been dealt. We all agree the offensive line is horrendous, but in spite of that he's been able to play pretty well. I agree RG3 has been terrific but your argument that Luck is taking a beating is shallow considering RG3 is getting a much worse beating than Luck is. Luck has only been sacked 5 times and has been able to avoid getting hit unlike RG3.

And 99% of the league would go after a franchise QB rather than a line. It's poor form to pass on exceptional talent just because you don't have a line.

Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

I think you can figure a lot of what Luck has based on what cards he has been dealt. We all agree the offensive line is horrendous, but in spite of that he's been able to play pretty well. I agree RG3 has been terrific but your argument that Luck is taking a beating is shallow considering RG3 is getting a much worse beating than Luck is. Luck has only been sacked 5 times and has been able to avoid getting hit unlike RG3.

And 99% of the league would go after a franchise QB rather than a line. It's poor form to pass on exceptional talent just because you don't have a line.

Washington has needed a QB for a long time. They thought they had enough in hand to go after one when they did. Many teams have taken the QB first and several were ruined because of it. David Carr, Couch and a host of others are an example. Won't do you much good to have a franchise QB who has a career ending injury because there was not offensive line to protect him. That doesn't even take into account players who just never developed after taking that kind of beating....

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Washington has needed a QB for a long time. They thought they had enough in hand to go after one when they did. Many teams have taken the QB first and several were ruined because of it. David Carr, Couch and a host of others are an example. Won't do you much good to have a franchise QB who has a career ending injury because there was not offensive line to protect him. That doesn't even take into account players who just never developed after taking that kind of beating....

I think the QBs you consider ruined were not good to begin with. David Carr and Couch had good college careers but just did not do a great job in the NFL because of talent, not because of lack of protection. I do agree Carr got absolutely mauled in the beginning, but the good QBs can overcome bad protection and create opportunities. Roethlisberger has never had great protection, yet year after year he's been able to get Pittsburgh's offense moving down the field. He gets hit and sacked a ton. Those 2 QBs needed all the help they could get because they were not great to begin with. If they had protection, they might have survived a bit longer, but they still would not be good. Luck does not have protection, but he's able to feel pressure better than 90% of the Qbs in the league already and avoid the sack/hit. I have every confidence right now that we will continue to address the offensive line and will get better, and I think that will happen next year itself.

Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Washington has needed a QB for a long time. They thought they had enough in hand to go after one when they did. Many teams have taken the QB first and several were ruined because of it. David Carr, Couch and a host of others are an example. Won't do you much good to have a franchise QB who has a career ending injury because there was not offensive line to protect him. That doesn't even take into account players who just never developed after taking that kind of beating....

Luck doesn't take beatings. He makes people whiff all the time. You don't watch Colts games.

Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

I think the QBs you consider ruined were not good to begin with. David Carr and Couch had good college careers but just did not do a great job in the NFL because of talent, not because of lack of protection. I do agree Carr got absolutely mauled in the beginning, but the good QBs can overcome bad protection and create opportunities. Roethlisberger has never had great protection, yet year after year he's been able to get Pittsburgh's offense moving down the field. He gets hit and sacked a ton. Those 2 QBs needed all the help they could get because they were not great to begin with. If they had protection, they might have survived a bit longer, but they still would not be good. Luck does not have protection, but he's able to feel pressure better than 90% of the Qbs in the league already and avoid the sack/hit. I have every confidence right now that we will continue to address the offensive line and will get better, and I think that will happen next year itself.

Blah, blah, blah..... When I point out examples of QBs who were as highly thought of as Luck at the time, they just didn't have the talent. Well, has it occurred to you that Luck just doesn't really have the talent or the arm either. Put Luck on Washington and he would not produce what RGIII has. Put RGIII on the Colts and he will make the other players better and you would have a better team immediately. There is that much difference. Cam Newton took over a team that was just about as bad as the Colts last year and look at the season he had and how many more wins they got than were predicted. He is off to a shaky start this year playing some very good teams but his numbers will be great by the end of the year. Why won't you just admit that Luck is not the NFL ready QB and talent that everyone (but a few of us) thought that he was. He will be an adequate but not great QB. He might even become Phillip Rivers type good but he will never be a Brady, either of the Mannings, Rogers or Brees kind of good.... ... By the way, Big Ben has never had to have great protection to be a very good superbowl winning QB. Luck would never be able to win playing behind the lines that Big Ben has.... ...

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

The man was asking for example and I gave them to him in Carr and Couch. He just said they were not good enough. Perhaps he is right. Perhaps I am right that Luck won't be more than an adequate NFL QB. I don't see him as a top ten any time soon.... ...

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Blah, blah, blah..... When I point out examples of QBs who were as highly thought of as Luck at the time, they just didn't have the talent. Well, has it occurred to you that Luck just doesn't really have the talent or the arm either. ...

Your fixation on Luck's arm just won't quit. Once again let's go back to your favorite expert Phil Simms and what he thinks about arm strength... and here's the quote when talking about your favorite quarterback Peyton Manning just getting out of college.

My apologies in providing the proper link.... This was taken from a Peter King SI article (Peter King's Monday Morning Quarterback from 1998)..

* Simms was incredulous when the question about Manning’s questionable arm strength was posed. “His arm’s plenty good. You know how many times Drew Bledsoe really aired it out last year? I mean, 50, 60 yards in the air? Five. Ten, maybe. In the NFL, you make your living throwing the intermediate pass, and look at how many good intermediate throws we’re seeing Peyton make.”

Last edited by RWB; 10-05-2012 at 10:33 AM.

You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

The man was asking for example and I gave them to him in Carr and Couch. He just said they were not good enough. Perhaps he is right. Perhaps I am right that Luck won't be more than an adequate NFL QB. I don't see him as a top ten any time soon.... ...

Your issue with thinking you're making good comparisons is you believe that all #1 drafted QB's are equal in expectations and scouting grades. Which just simply isn't the case. Here's an example. Here are the negatives from Pro Football Weekly on David Carr:

Negatives: Semi-sidearm, unusual, three-quarter throwing motion. Has a very low release point, about shoulder level. Will get balls batted down, which could be huge problem, since so many teams use so many three- and five-step drops. Is basically a line-drive passer and might be better off if he put more air under some of his throws. Is not quite as mobile as you would like and is not a super athlete and improviser. Average scambler and is no Donovan McNabb as a runner. Can be inconsistent throwing the ball. Will force some and make some bad reads. Was brought along beautifully by the Fresno State staff and has not faced a lot of adversity, so you cannot be sure how well he can handle it. Did bounce back from the Ohio State disaster in 2000. In Fresno Stateís two regular-season losses in í01, he was in a position to lead John Elway-type comebacks but did not do it.

Does that sound like a glowing review of someone they think will be a superstar QB? Not at all. I can vividly recall Couch having plenty of doubters out of college as well, including me. I couldn't find any old scouting reports on Couch. I'm know both had believers, but it certainly wasn't unanimous like it was with Luck this year.

They weren't victims of bad offensive lines, they were victims of being top picks that weren't very good. At a position that gets a ton of attention. In fact, if Luck continues his rookie season even anywhere remotely close to what he has done in his first 3 games, he will have a better rookie year then either of those guys had at any point in their career.

The Following User Says Thank You to xBulletproof For This Useful Post:

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Why are you guys arguing with him?

Its a lost cause. I mean he thinks Cam Newton was the QB of this generation and has faced a top notch defenses in 4 games. He has played one good passing defense in the Falcons and lost that game. Just look at the stats. Cam has lost to the 32nd ranked passing defense (ranked by yds per game). Want to guess who that was?

The tampa bay bucs who also gave RG3 his best statistical performance of the year this last weekend. You know the guy who fumbled in the redzone and was recovered by Garcon for a score. A game which was won by 2 points.

RG3 has yet to win against a team with a top 16 passing defense (yds/game).

Lets just say its only been 4 games, 3 in the case of Luck, and both have been lucky and unlucky in certain games.

A missed field goal here a fumble recover there and the game is totally different so lets hold off any judgements yet. Both IMO are good but the league has a way to make you look terrible overtime hence Cam Newton and Josh Freeman.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Why are you guys arguing with him?
Its a lost cause. I mean he thinks Cam Newton was the QB of this generation and has faced a top notch defenses in 4 games. He has played one good passing defense in the both have been lucky and unlucky in certain games.

Because you told us to...

Again just point out how ridiculous his post are and move on. Theres no need to get personal about it with him. He's an old guy with a lot more time to be bitter about Irsays/Peytons decision.

So basically know a lost cause and move on. Refute his point with Facts (cats) and just laugh at how pathetic his points really are.

You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Blah, blah, blah..... When I point out examples of QBs who were as highly thought of as Luck at the time, they just didn't have the talent. Well, has it occurred to you that Luck just doesn't really have the talent or the arm either. Put Luck on Washington and he would not produce what RGIII has. Put RGIII on the Colts and he will make the other players better and you would have a better team immediately. There is that much difference. Cam Newton took over a team that was just about as bad as the Colts last year and look at the season he had and how many more wins they got than were predicted. He is off to a shaky start this year playing some very good teams but his numbers will be great by the end of the year. Why won't you just admit that Luck is not the NFL ready QB and talent that everyone (but a few of us) thought that he was. He will be an adequate but not great QB. He might even become Phillip Rivers type good but he will never be a Brady, either of the Mannings, Rogers or Brees kind of good.... ... By the way, Big Ben has never had to have great protection to be a very good superbowl winning QB. Luck would never be able to win playing behind the lines that Big Ben has.... ...

Just seeing some of this stuff and I will just make a few comments, neither Couch or Carr was ever thought to have as much talent as Luck, he is considered the best prospect to come out of college since John Elway, so anyone between those two guys does not matter.

Even if Luck didn't have top arm strength football is a lot more than that, a QB really only needs to have above average arm strength I think to eventually become elite, other traits are needed to separate them, unless you think Luck has below average arm strength which no one does or even average, then he should be just fine.

As far as who he will become no one knows, so far he has had better a better rookie season than all those guys you have listed.

Eli passed fore 48% and had 6TD's and 9 picks, Brees really did not take of til he got to the Saints, Rodgers set multiple years and had to work on a lot, Rivers didn't start until his second year, Brady set his first year and during his second was not very special, better than most but not anything that makes you say he would be a hall of famer, and we all know about Peyton who through for 56% and had more picks than touchdowns in his first year.

But if you would like to hear something positive right now about Luck that comes from an outside party here you go...

Currently Luck has the highest score in this ranking scale out of ALL quarterbacks in the NFL, every ranking system has its shortcomings but, I think this says something about what Luck has done so far this season.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Again just point out how ridiculous his post are and move on. Theres no need to get personal about it with him. He's an old guy with a lot more time to be bitter about Irsays/Peytons decision.

So basically know a lost cause and move on. Refute his point with Facts (cats) and just laugh at how pathetic his points really are.

IIRC that was to one poster who was getting a little caught up in his web. Most of the PDers here don't have that problem. Certainly his comparisons of Luck don't even deserve a response though I did like xBulletproofs post.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

No one really thought David Carr was going to be an elite pro QB Not even really the Texans, my memory from that draft is that they kind of threw their arms up in the air and said well we NEED a QB as a franchise team and we're going to be terrible anyway. Carr has the great senior season and the rest is history. I don't necessarily dislike Carr either, I do think his line was detriment to him, and I think he's a good serviceable QB, but he can't be compared to Luck IMO. I'm pretty sure that's the exact same thing that happened to Tim Couch. Comparing either one to Luck's situation is a huuuuuuuuge stretch.

I mean Carr struggled to win the job at Fresno until his junior year. Couch through 36 INTs in his junior and senior seasons. 36!

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

No one really thought David Carr was going to be an elite pro QB Not even really the Texans, my memory from that draft is that they kind of threw their arms up in the air and said well we NEED a QB as a franchise team and we're going to be terrible anyway. Carr has the great senior season and the rest is history. I don't necessarily dislike Carr either, I do think his line was detriment to him, and I think he's a good serviceable QB, but he can't be compared to Luck IMO. I'm pretty sure that's the exact same thing that happened to Tim Couch. Comparing either one to Luck's situation is a huuuuuuuuge stretch.

I mean Carr struggled to win the job at Fresno until his junior year. Couch through 36 INTs in his junior and senior seasons. 36!

Yeah it is typically hard to really project how good a QB is going to be going from college to the pros, there is so much that is different, the speed, the plays, the defenses, and most importantly how they will adapt to adversity.

I think Luck has done pretty good so far, but he is still early into his NFL career.

As far as Carr, I mean they expected him to be a QB with potential, nothing wrong with that, but you are correct in the fact that they wanted to start out their franchise with at QB, and if it makes anyone feel any better he was the best QB to come out of that first round, lol the other two guys were Patrick Ramsey, and Joey Harrington, scary.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

No one really thought David Carr was going to be an elite pro QB Not even really the Texans, my memory from that draft is that they kind of threw their arms up in the air and said well we NEED a QB as a franchise team and we're going to be terrible anyway. Carr has the great senior season and the rest is history. I don't necessarily dislike Carr either, I do think his line was detriment to him, and I think he's a good serviceable QB, but he can't be compared to Luck IMO. I'm pretty sure that's the exact same thing that happened to Tim Couch. Comparing either one to Luck's situation is a huuuuuuuuge stretch.

I mean Carr struggled to win the job at Fresno until his junior year. Couch through 36 INTs in his junior and senior seasons. 36!

Couch also had a broken thumb, a broken leg, and a shoulder surgery in the matter of 4 years. That can pretty much derail anyones career.