Korea rose from poverty after Japanese occupation and a civil war, but at the end of the day it's the truth. Can you name any other country in the top 10 that went through a civil war or any domestic conflict close to the scale of the Korean war after 1950?
Also, free thinking, dissent, imagination, they may not hold the value in some countries that they do in the West. I find it surprising too, but conformity can have it's own rewards. I get frustrated with the Korean system because I am from the West, but at the same time I can easily see how it made this ranking. It isn't rocket science, they just worked themselves to the bone. Just give them props and try to see what the strong point of the school system is. I get worried when people from my side of the globe can't tell when they are falling behind.

Now as to any country rising from the ashes after going through a conflict similar in scale to the Korean war...well, now that you mention it, Japan was reduced to dust by B-52 bombers and two atomic bombs (the only time they have have been used in combat history)...you may quibble and say this was 5 years before 1950...which is exactly the point.

Japan was reduced to rubble, pulled themselves up by their bootstraps (with the aid of the US commissioning weapons from them to kill Koreans from 1950) and blazed their trail to recovery, a trail which Korea followed like a dilligent Confucian lad.

Uh no, Japan did not go through a civil war. Japan is not a divided country with world powers manipulating and playing both sides for their own benefit. I'm pretty sure Japan had some leftist revolutionaries back in the day that caused problems but they were nowhere near the scope of the attempted coups, assassination attempts, and purges Korea has gone through until recently. Seriously, in the past 5 years S Korea has been through an artillery and naval attack, both of which wreaked havoc on it's currency and economy. Right when it was about to host the G20 N Korea hit it. It's sad that people have to keep being reminded of this especially when they live in the country. It's generally thought of as one of the most volatile places in the world, it's going to be hard for us Westerners to get why Koreans act the way they do sometimes. I'm not here defending the weird ways foreigners get treated sometimes, or any of the ways the school system has mistreated its NETs in the past or present. I'm just saying anybody that looks at the hours and research that is put into the schools here could see this coming. Anybody that has worked at a school here should have seen this coming. S Korea has found a system that works in it's native environment, it is brutal but effective. There are other countries that have similar histories to S Korea, but like I said you won't find any of them in the top 10.

Basically it's a marathon race and S Korea has been sprinting for the past 50 years. They are finally catching up, so now maybe they can find their stride, relax a bit, and look at what other countries are doing. And then N Korea will come along and !@$!$ it all up again.

Um, world war two anybody? Europe went through two devastating world wars in one generation. Uncounted millions killed, its labor force deprived of millions of male workers, its economy destroyed, and Germany divided. Let's not forget this little bit of information when we talk about Korea's war. Other countries had it bloody bad as well. But Europe got up off its knees and created a quality of life far superior to Korea's. And no part of Germany has a 'third world' feel to it the way much of Korea still does. So let's lay off the "they went through a devastating war' line.

Korea rose from poverty after Japanese occupation and a civil war, but at the end of the day it's the truth. Can you name any other country in the top 10 that went through a civil war or any domestic conflict close to the scale of the Korean war after 1950?
Also, free thinking, dissent, imagination, they may not hold the value in some countries that they do in the West. I find it surprising too, but conformity can have it's own rewards. I get frustrated with the Korean system because I am from the West, but at the same time I can easily see how it made this ranking. It isn't rocket science, they just worked themselves to the bone. Just give them props and try to see what the strong point of the school system is. I get worried when people from my side of the globe can't tell when they are falling behind.

Now as to any country rising from the ashes after going through a conflict similar in scale to the Korean war...well, now that you mention it, Japan was reduced to dust by B-52 bombers and two atomic bombs (the only time they have have been used in combat history)...you may quibble and say this was 5 years before 1950...which is exactly the point.

Japan was reduced to rubble, pulled themselves up by their bootstraps (with the aid of the US commissioning weapons from them to kill Koreans from 1950) and blazed their trail to recovery, a trail which Korea followed like a dilligent Confucian lad.

Uh no, Japan did not go through a civil war. Japan is not a divided country with world powers manipulating and playing both sides for their own benefit. I'm pretty sure Japan had some leftist revolutionaries back in the day that caused problems but they were nowhere near the scope of the attempted coups, assassination attempts, and purges Korea has gone through until recently. Seriously, in the past 5 years S Korea has been through an artillery and naval attack, both of which wreaked havoc on it's currency and economy. Right when it was about to host the G20 N Korea hit it. It's sad that people have to keep being reminded of this especially when they live in the country. It's generally thought of as one of the most volatile places in the world, it's going to be hard for us Westerners to get why Koreans act the way they do sometimes. I'm not here defending the weird ways foreigners get treated sometimes, or any of the ways the school system has mistreated its NETs in the past or present. I'm just saying anybody that looks at the hours and research that is put into the schools here could see this coming. Anybody that has worked at a school here should have seen this coming. S Korea has found a system that works in it's native environment, it is brutal but effective. There are other countries that have similar histories to S Korea, but like I said you won't find any of them in the top 10.

Basically it's a marathon race and S Korea has been sprinting for the past 50 years. They are finally catching up, so now maybe they can find their stride, relax a bit, and look at what other countries are doing. And then N Korea will come along and !@$!$ it all up again.

The UK has experienced 30 years of sectarian civil war in NI, its government bombed, royals and ministers assassinated, city centres turned to rubble and 3600 dead.

And let's not forget that Russia basically went from serfdom to space exploration in forty years. This after losing as many as 18 million people in the second world war and Stalinist purges and artificial famines that killed millions more.

And let's not forget that Russia basically went from serfdom to space exploration in forty years. This after losing as many as 18 million people in the second world war and Stalinist purges and artificial famines that killed millions more.

Russia emancipated the serfs in the 1860s. The great revolutionary struggle to advance the historical dialectic of worker's progress and socialist manifestation (or whatever the heck it is Boris was blathering about) was centered largely on industrialized workers. Russia posessed a decent level of technology.

But the larger point stands, which is Russia was probably the least developed of the major European powers (though not as behind as is often portrayed) and large swaths of the population lived on subsistence farming.

At the same time one has to remember that most importantly, Russia was independent.

But I think hiamnotcool was talking about how since 1950, no country has experienced that level of devestation and done as well, though I'd disagree and cite China, India, and Israel. Iraq and Iran had a chance to be like that, but calamity struck.

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The UK has experienced 30 years of sectarian civil war in NI, its government bombed, royals and ministers assassinated, city centres turned to rubble and 3600 dead.

Now you're being overly dramatic. That's something like 120 dead and a major incident each year for 30 years. That's not civil war. That's terrorism and crime.

120 dead is a good year for most major American cities. The War on Drugs has produced a higher body count.

The Troubles in no way compares to the full scale war which Korea, Vietnam, Israel, Iran, Iraq, China, India, Yugoslavia, and others experienced.

And let's not forget that Russia basically went from serfdom to space exploration in forty years. This after losing as many as 18 million people in the second world war and Stalinist purges and artificial famines that killed millions more.

I said top 10, and I noted that Russia and Germany as well, also Poland, etc. Germany has some room to scoff at Korea because it was also seperated after WWII, however it also had all of Western Europe to it's back which helped with it's economic recovery. Korea also suffered in WWII, I'm not taking that out of consideration. I'm just saying S Korea is STILL a volatile country, they have just done such a good job of carrying on with their daily business a lot of people don't notice anymore.

I'm just saying S Korea is STILL a volatile country, they have just done such a good job of carrying on with their daily business a lot of people don't notice anymore.

The American military presence, and the accompanying political alliance, has been the main factor creating and maintaining that stability. Without that alliance, the South would not achieved what it has. South Korea's economic success is as much an American accomplishment as a Korean one.

Here we go again. Back on topic. Take the petty digs to PM; or better yet, act like adults and discuss the topic appropriately without the personal digs. Try not looking at who posted, but look at what they said. If you do not agree, state your opinion of the topic, not of their opinion.

I'm just saying S Korea is STILL a volatile country, they have just done such a good job of carrying on with their daily business a lot of people don't notice anymore.

The American military presence, and the accompanying political alliance, has been the main factor creating and maintaining that stability. Without that alliance, the South would not achieved what it has. South Korea's economic success is as much an American accomplishment as a Korean one.

Same with pretty much all of Western Europe.

Care to speculate on how a devastated France, Germany, Netherlands, and Italy would have fared if America had sent all its boys home the second Hitler was dead? Enjoy 50 years under the Iron Curtain. UK might have been able to hold everything off, that's about it. Certainly it would have had to spend a MASSIVE amount on defense, would have mandatory conscription, and would be fielding an army of about 2 million. It's economy and social spending would have likely suffered as well.

In order to maintain order there likely would have been a far more militarized mindset and much less tolerance for transparency.

========================================

One more thing to consider, for much of Western education, even up into the 70s, standardized tests, rote memorization, nationalistic education, "moral lessons", and conformity were the norm.

You read Shakespeare, Classical literature, the Bible, and maybe Romantic poets. You recited them and accepted things as truth. You got lessons on how the heathens of the world needed civilization and one should not trust them or be too close to them. You learned your Latin. The teacher would hit you or give you a dunce hat.

Oddly, since that all stopped people have been bemoaning the quality of education and the breakdown in education....

And let's not forget that Russia basically went from serfdom to space exploration in forty years. This after losing as many as 18 million people in the second world war and Stalinist purges and artificial famines that killed millions more.

Russia emancipated the serfs in the 1860s. The great revolutionary struggle to advance the historical dialectic of worker's progress and socialist manifestation (or whatever the heck it is Boris was blathering about) was centered largely on industrialized workers. Russia posessed a decent level of technology.

But the larger point stands, which is Russia was probably the least developed of the major European powers (though not as behind as is often portrayed) and large swaths of the population lived on subsistence farming.

At the same time one has to remember that most importantly, Russia was independent.

But I think hiamnotcool was talking about how since 1950, no country has experienced that level of devestation and done as well, though I'd disagree and cite China, India, and Israel. Iraq and Iran had a chance to be like that, but calamity struck.

Quote:

The UK has experienced 30 years of sectarian civil war in NI, its government bombed, royals and ministers assassinated, city centres turned to rubble and 3600 dead.

Now you're being overly dramatic. That's something like 120 dead and a major incident each year for 30 years. That's not civil war. That's terrorism and crime.

120 dead is a good year for most major American cities. The War on Drugs has produced a higher body count.

The Troubles in no way compares to the full scale war which Korea, Vietnam, Israel, Iran, Iraq, China, India, Yugoslavia, and others experienced.

Please.

I was responding to hiamnotcool's comment about the current volatility between SK and NK. The troubles were far more vicious and damaging to the UK than sporadic artillery barrages and the odd bomb here and there have been to SK.

I was not comparing it to full scale war.

Also your reasoning is a bit skewed, what are you saying? That the higher body count connected with the 'war on drugs' means that conflicts with smaller death tolls are not conflicts? Over 160 people were killed in the latest conflict in Gaza are you saying that was not a conflict because at the same time more people died in traffic accidents in China?

Seriously, you dont think the troubles have had a serious effect on the economic and political climate of NI? You don't think the lasting sectarian segregation of communities behind peace walls constitute an ongoing civil war?

Korea rose from poverty after Japanese occupation and a civil war, but at the end of the day it's the truth. Can you name any other country in the top 10 that went through a civil war or any domestic conflict close to the scale of the Korean war after 1950?
Also, free thinking, dissent, imagination, they may not hold the value in some countries that they do in the West. I find it surprising too, but conformity can have it's own rewards. I get frustrated with the Korean system because I am from the West, but at the same time I can easily see how it made this ranking. It isn't rocket science, they just worked themselves to the bone. Just give them props and try to see what the strong point of the school system is. I get worried when people from my side of the globe can't tell when they are falling behind.

Now as to any country rising from the ashes after going through a conflict similar in scale to the Korean war...well, now that you mention it, Japan was reduced to dust by B-52 bombers and two atomic bombs (the only time they have have been used in combat history)...you may quibble and say this was 5 years before 1950...which is exactly the point.

Japan was reduced to rubble, pulled themselves up by their bootstraps (with the aid of the US commissioning weapons from them to kill Koreans from 1950) and blazed their trail to recovery, a trail which Korea followed like a dilligent Confucian lad.

Uh no, Japan did not go through a civil war. Japan is not a divided country with world powers manipulating and playing both sides for their own benefit. I'm pretty sure Japan had some leftist revolutionaries back in the day that caused problems but they were nowhere near the scope of the attempted coups, assassination attempts, and purges Korea has gone through until recently. Seriously, in the past 5 years S Korea has been through an artillery and naval attack, both of which wreaked havoc on it's currency and economy. Right when it was about to host the G20 N Korea hit it. It's sad that people have to keep being reminded of this especially when they live in the country. It's generally thought of as one of the most volatile places in the world, it's going to be hard for us Westerners to get why Koreans act the way they do sometimes. I'm not here defending the weird ways foreigners get treated sometimes, or any of the ways the school system has mistreated its NETs in the past or present. I'm just saying anybody that looks at the hours and research that is put into the schools here could see this coming. Anybody that has worked at a school here should have seen this coming. S Korea has found a system that works in it's native environment, it is brutal but effective. There are other countries that have similar histories to S Korea, but like I said you won't find any of them in the top 10.

Basically it's a marathon race and S Korea has been sprinting for the past 50 years. They are finally catching up, so now maybe they can find their stride, relax a bit, and look at what other countries are doing. And then N Korea will come along and !@$!$ it all up again.

Your basic mistake (other than being unaware of the fact that Japan had a sizeable student movent until the 80's; it got to the point where a commercial jet was hijacked and forced to fly to North Korea...other incidents include a leading Socialist candidate for prime minster being stabbed to death on TV) is your failure to understand that the civil disturbances have been largely a result of a certain group of spineless families deliberately sucking up to other countries (China-Japan-US). In other words, they have brought it onto themselves, by their mistreatment of their own people.

Once the collaborators secure a cozy relationship with a bigger brother, they set about working together for mutual benefits, often at the expense of Minsu and Haeyoung, who typically are made to labor more than their equivalents in other countries of similar economic stature.

One of the bigger of the benefits comes about by manufacturing conflict and fear for the purchase of arms, a tactic actually quite common throughout the world, and also quite lucrative here. The reason why those 'attacks' didn't have a long-term lingering effect is that behind closed doors LMB was able to reassure the key players that it was all for show (you may want to have a look at an analysis of the 'evidence' which was presented as proof for the Cheonam...basically the marked inscriptions were neatly done on a surface which had been cleaned of corrosive rust...because everyone knows you label your weapons after they've been used and have lain on the seabed for several months...of course the analysis came about long after the 'official' version of events had been transmitted to the public).

So, to recap: people being made to study like drones so they can no longer reason or question why social welfare is 2nd lowest in the OECD with the highest rate of suicide while military spending ranks 12th in the world, in due large part to the actions and mindset of vulture-like profiteers, is not an educational situation to envy.

A similar situation actually exists in Japan (again, who do you think people like Park Chung-hee got his ideas from), but many of the people don't buy in and create their own islands of subcultures whose aims and sentiments deliberately contradict the trends manufactured for the masses.

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Seriously, in the past 5 years S Korea has been through an artillery and naval attack, both of which wreaked havoc on it's currency and economy.

I was here. It didn't wreak havoc. It caused a minor blip. Quit being so melodramatic.

Well-observed.

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As a military history and aviation afficianado, I am obsessively compulsed to point out that it was B-29s, not B-52s.

I stand corrected on the number. For the people being blown to bits it could've been B-2012's for all they cared, but yeah for military buffs it's a point of contention.

Last edited by Dave Chance on Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:38 pm; edited 3 times in total