It's funny though that almost all the crew members, including even Miranda, say they agreed with what you did if you choose to destroy the station.

I was almost tempted to save the station even on my paragorn playthrough - but then TIM is a smoker, and Scully and Mulder would never give such an evil weapon to the cancer man either now, would they?

It's funny though that almost all the crew members, including even Miranda, say they agreed with what you did if you choose to destroy the station.

They agree with you because they are your team and considering what you got them through, they trust you implicitly.

They don't like if you keep the base, not because they think its a bad decision but because they either don't like Cerberus ( alien crew ), or because they feel sickened by what happened there ( Miranda, Jacob ).

I should point out though that ( if you bring em with you to the reaper ) Garrus, Mordin, Grunt, Zaeed, Legion all speak in favor of destroying the base. Tali, Thane, Jack and Jacob strongly disapprove of keeping it while Miranda simply reminds you of the experiments, but does agree to an extent they should use the base. Samara/Morinth just says you have not truly defeated an enemy if you use their tech, but then again you do rely on the Mass Relays and always will.

Look at it this way: if the Lich King raised your fallen hero from dead, gave you a personal mini-necropolis, bound a crew of other undead ex-heroes into your servitude and, in return, asked you to go to Ulduar to enslave Yogg-Saron into the Scourge's service... would you do it, if you had another option?

Your comparing the Lich King to TIM, which is hilarous. First off you assume that the Lich King would give you free reign of an critical operation. Secondly you cannot compare the Scourge to Cerberus seriously.

While Cerberus did do so pretty horibile things, it never committed genocide, nor does it want to annihilate aliens or install humanit as the emperor race in the Galaxy ( Kelly and Miranda confirm this ) it simply wants to advance the power of the human race in the Galaxy.

Considering the other governments in the Galaxy are run by complete and utter morons, I will take my chances with TIM, he did more for me then the Alliance + Council did combined.

Even though its the paragon option, it seems more renegade to me. Not in the scope of being "bad/selfish"

I agree here. People who destroy the base don't do it cause they have some moral qualm or crap like that, they do it cause they have issues with TIM.

Io.Draco wrote:They don't like if you keep the base, not because they think its a bad decision but because they either don't like Cerberus ( alien crew ), or because they feel sickened by what happened there ( Miranda, Jacob ).

That statement doesn't really make much sense to me, since it is clear they do think it is a bad decision, exactly because they distrust what Cerberus would use the station for.

Also, Cerberus shows that it is willing to do whatever it takes to advance the human agenda - so being loyal to Cerberus for me would only work if you are roleplaying a human supremacist Shepard. In this regard the paragorn/renegade points system rather fails. If you look at being a paragorn, who are you looking at for setting your moral compass? I think the game tends to look more at what would be the right thing to do for someone who would support the establishment (the council/alliance) rather than someone who would support Cerberus (still being seen as a rogue organization, even if they are your employers). But you could of course argue that your character uses the viewpoints of Cerberus to set his or her moral compass.

The Paragorn/renegade system is refreshingly different from good/evil, but still suffers from the same flaws, and doesn't actually improve things on the whole. It's just a new flavour for the same thing.

So instead I should support the Citadel Council who had no qualms whatsoever about the genocide they committed upon the Rachni, sterilizing the Krogan TWICE. Or the Alliance who is responsible for hundred of thousands of deaths of kids just so they could get biotics?

Or perhaps I should support the Quarians who seem willing to play God.

Cerberus isn't perfect but I don't make any illusion that any government is "good" as people seem to naively think.

Also, Cerberus shows that it is willing to do whatever it takes to advance the human agenda - so being loyal to Cerberus for me would only work if you are roleplaying a human supremacist Shepard.

Cerberus shows that it is willing to do whatever it takes to stop the reapers, no red tape, no bullshit poltics, no questions about your methods. Perhaps you should take that in mind.

Apparently Paragons believe that brain washing some geth, even though sapient beings, is the moral choice to do, but giving a base to Cerberus, which contains only tech data is wrong? WTF is that bullshit thinking?

Io.Draco wrote:So instead I should support the Citadel Council who had no qualms whatsoever about the genocide they committed upon the Rachni, sterilizing the Krogan TWICE. Or the Alliance who is responsible for hundred of thousands of deaths of kids just so they could get biotics?

Or perhaps I should support the Quarians who seem willing to play God.

Cerberus isn't perfect but I don't make any illusion that any government is "good" as people seem to naively think.

Also, Cerberus shows that it is willing to do whatever it takes to advance the human agenda - so being loyal to Cerberus for me would only work if you are roleplaying a human supremacist Shepard.

Cerberus shows that it is willing to do whatever it takes to stop the reapers, no red tape, no bullshit poltics, no questions about your methods. Perhaps you should take that in mind.

Apparently Paragons believe that brain washing some geth, even though sapient beings, is the moral choice to do, but giving a base to Cerberus, which contains only tech data is wrong? WTF is that bullshit thinking?

And Cerberus thought it'd be a good idea to try and turn thorian creepers and rachni into slave troopers. Oh, and let's not even talk about Project Zero, the preliminary course before the team went to the Alliance and caused all those child deaths you mentioned. Bottom line: no one is perfect.

The Council? Can't get anything done, always out-source their problems. This can be both good and bad.

The Alliance: Too harsh to get by without innocent casualties, too meek to really get the job done effectively.

Cerberus: Are really the 'any means necessary' kind of people. While you can't argue with their results, they often don't take the time to seek out alternative, but equally effective, measures.

And brainwashing the Geth may seem draconic in our minds, but really, you're saving countless 'lives' over what is literally explained to be a computer glitch. It doesn't take a lot of philosophical debate over the noble choice there. Plus, you're not guaranteed Geth allegiance, and you're adding directly to the strength of their society. Being a Paragon means not always doing things that work in your favor.

And what exactly, given their track record and value placed on sapient life, what do you think Cerberus is going to do with a space station that liquifies living beings and turns them into neigh' indestructible starships? The only question in the Elusive Man's mind would be whether or not it's loyalty can be acquired. That would be the ONLY obstacle for Cerberus, and perhaps the logistics of harvesting hundreds of thousands of sapients. I bet he would reconstruct the Harvester ship and pretend it was their work. Targeting the colonies of alien races in the Terminus systems and beyond if it was necessary.

Joker and his computer wife were some of my favorite parts of the game. That or Joker's opinions of the crew. Of course, I wont lie, I love Seth Green. Though there were so many good parts. The Salarian's Bachelor party. The Quarian/Turian "friends" that I could relate to from High school and possibly would have persuaded me towards Tali if I wasn't already...

Just finished...definitely not *the best* RPG I've ever played, not nearly, but that's not really a knock on it...it was excellent and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Apparently I suck at keeping people alive though, my casualty list:

MirandaMordinTaliThaneZaeed

Oh, and as far as then end...I chose to save the station. Yes, I fully expect TIM to try to dick me over (again, imo) at some point...but understanding reaper technology could be very important to winning this war, and I wasn't about to pass up on that opportunity. I don't trust TIM one bit, I simply think I can outmaneuver him in the end.

Dorvan wrote:Just finished...definitely not *the best* RPG I've ever played, not nearly, but that's not really a knock on it...it was excellent and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Apparently I suck at keeping people alive though, my casualty list:

MirandaMordinTaliThaneZaeed

Oh, and as far as then end...I chose to save the station. Yes, I fully expect TIM to try to dick me over (again, imo) at some point...but understanding reaper technology could be very important to winning this war, and I wasn't about to pass up on that opportunity. I don't trust TIM one bit, I simply think I can outmaneuver him in the end.

Vanifae wrote:Best choices are pretty obvious for all the roles, Miranda gives you mostly bad advice besides saying she is a good leader. Do not beleive her when she says any biotic can make the shield.

Yeah, Jack or the Asari chick for Biotic duty, Jacob, Garrus, Miranda or Zaeed for fireteam duty, Tali or Legion as your Duct Rat of choice and pretty much anyone who's loyal to you to guide your crew back to the Normandy (I picked Mordin, cause much as I loved the character, he wasn't needed for the final boss).

Vanifae wrote:Best choices are pretty obvious for all the roles, Miranda gives you mostly bad advice besides saying she is a good leader. Do not beleive her when she says any biotic can make the shield.

Yeah, Jack or the Asari chick for Biotic duty, Jacob, Garrus, Miranda or Zaeed for fireteam duty, Tali or Legion as your Duct Rat of choice and pretty much anyone who's loyal to you to guide your crew back to the Normandy (I picked Mordin, cause much as I loved the character, he wasn't needed for the final boss).

Good choices Mordin is a good escort choice, the Hold the Line sequence is actually another point to lose people and you need strong defenders.

Zaeed's loyalty can be maintained with high Paragon and persuasion. It's pretty awesome, I really liked how they made paragon more badass in the sequel.

Yeah, I suspect on that playthrough my morality wasn't high enough at the point I did the quest to talk him round. In fact, that has to be my single biggest gripe with the game (outside of planet scanning, but hey now they've developed the hovertank, I expect that to go away in ME3): the explicit tying of your morality score to your persuasion options.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you no longer have to take points out of your Shooting Things In The Face budget to buy Talking to People skills, but as Yahtzee mentioned in his review, it does sometimes turn the question of roleplaying into "what will help my character win persuasion tests later in the game".

That said, I am tempted to now do a horrid playthrough where Everyone Dies Because Shepherd is a Dick.

Yeah, I know what you're saying about the persuasion thing. I lost Miranda because I couldn't recover from the Miranda/Jack spat...I was almost exactly 50/50 split between Paragon and Renegade. I like that better than having to blindly pursue one side or another tbh....my Shepard is fircely loyal to his crew, which tends to favor Paragon, but he also doesn't have much patience for idiots and doesn't mind hurting a few criminals and making some credits on the side in pursuit of his goals.

Tali I lost due to loyalty, as again because of my split I didn't have either persuasion option available at her final trial scene and I outed her dad. Zaeed wasn't loyal because I saved the crew but didn't have high enough Paragon, Thane I lost from making him my first specialist (I actually figured he'd die, but hey...he was gone within a year anyway). Mordin I lost because I had Jacob to the shield.