Thanks. Just what we need to make this forum a more pleasant place to spend time.

WilliCO commented: November 27, 2012, 11:53 pm

I'm in early, and I say it doesn't matter. The ATS target market is the BMW 3 series target market minus the people who just don't want a Cadillac, which leaves a smaller buyer group than BMW will worry about. They have a much larger problem with Audi.

GM is doing some great work with the Cadillac products right now. In my opinion, they should have rolled out a new brand marque for these very good cars, as the Cadillac name removes value from what they are trying to do in the market. Just sayin'.

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: November 28, 2012, 12:47 am

Cadillac is a rebadged Chevy.

bmw_or_audi commented: November 28, 2012, 2:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJGreer

GM is doing some great work with the Cadillac products right now. In my opinion, they should have rolled out a new brand marque for these very good cars, as the Cadillac name removes value from what they are trying to do in the market. Just sayin'.

Very good point.

wayner44 commented: November 28, 2012, 3:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

very good point.

+1

Leslierc commented: November 28, 2012, 6:10 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJGreer

I'm in early, and I say it doesn't matter. The ATS target market is the BMW 3 series target market minus the people who just don't want a Cadillac, which leaves a smaller buyer group than BMW will worry about. They have a much larger problem with Audi.

GM is doing some great work with the Cadillac products right now. In my opinion, they should have rolled out a new brand marque for these very good cars, as the Cadillac name removes value from what they are trying to do in the market. Just sayin'.

I completely agree with your first point regarding target market. The only cars my mother drove were Cadillacs...a new one every 2 years or so, but Cadillac wouldn't be my choice even though I respect very much what that company is doing with its vehicles. As to your second point, I don't think there's anything wrong with the Cadillac name. Cadillac and GM are very much a part of the fabric of America. It was GM and other manufacturers that provided jobs to masses of people, triggered gender and racial integration in the workplace, changed our society from agrarian to industrial, and created a middle class early in the last century. Cadillac engineered, built, and powered the Sherman tanks that helped defeat Japan and Germany in WWII. After that war, the company became one of the symbols of prosperity for this country. By the way, have you seen the Cadillac Ciel? http://www.coolhunting.com/design/cadillac-ciel.php I don't choose their cars because, right now, I prefer those of other companies. However, I think Cadillac still has a strong brand and that the company is making very competitive cars for the marketplace.

demas commented: November 28, 2012, 7:34 am

guys, I'm not an F30 owner but frequent this section (only to watch the BJ debates - keep em going they're great but c'mon, even I'm getting tired of seeing these Cadillac comparison threads. Move it to the general automotive forum.

as to the post above, sure Cadillac has its place in history and should be appreciated but BMW engines powered the Luftwaffe that bombed half of Britain but we buy their cars and then some. Speaks volumes to the respective products.

ok, I'll leave now and go back to the E39 forums but will be joining the F10 folks in a couple of months.

rock on

CE750Jockey commented: November 28, 2012, 10:26 am

"The ATS is the first Cadillac built specifically to take on the BMW 3 series". In other words, copy it and try to improve on it. And still, it comes up a little short. It's proactive vs reactive.....again. Sure the ATS is a good car, but it just doesn't inspire the passion. It's still missing the "It" factor that all copies lack.

boltjaM3s commented: November 28, 2012, 10:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Thanks. Just what we need to make this forum a more pleasant place to spend time.

Yeah, and all over a car that no BMW owner would be caught dead in.

BJ

Chris90 commented: November 28, 2012, 10:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJGreer

I'm in early, and I say it doesn't matter. The ATS target market is the BMW 3 series target market minus the people who just don't want a Cadillac, which leaves a smaller buyer group than BMW will worry about.

The market for people who don't want a BMW is also quite large. I know tons of people who'd never buy a BMW cause they don't want the a-hole stigma.

I haven't asked them if they'd buy a Cadillac though.

justinnum1 commented: November 28, 2012, 10:30 am

you can put a cadillac emblem on a ferrari and it would still cary the stigma

Chris90 commented: November 28, 2012, 10:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CE750Jockey

"The ATS is the first Cadillac built specifically to take on the BMW 3 series". In other words, copy it and try to improve on it. And still, it comes up a little short. It's proactive vs reactive.....again.

It's like the Lexus IS300, designed for one reason, to copy the E36.

It failed cause it was a half-assed effort.

WilliCO commented: November 28, 2012, 10:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslierc

As to your second point, I don't think there's anything wrong with the Cadillac name. Cadillac and GM are very much a part of the fabric of America. It was GM and other manufacturers that provided jobs to masses of people, triggered gender and racial integration in the workplace, changed our society from agrarian to industrial, and created a middle class early in the last century. Cadillac engineered, built, and powered the Sherman tanks that helped defeat Japan and Germany in WWII. After that war, the company became one of the symbols of prosperity for this country.

All true. It's the stuff Cadillac did in the 80s and 90s that I think shrinks the market.

dtc100 commented: November 28, 2012, 11:24 am

I don't know when some of you BMW fans will start to call the BMW own test driver an idiot, because even he seemed to agree the ATS 3.6, although not as good as the F30 335i in straight line performance, was better on the curves and at the corners.

One thing I found it alarming is, it actually proved BJ's point again, our own BMW test driver did not even know ATS existed, he had to Google it to find out

Chris90 commented: November 28, 2012, 11:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I don't know when some of you BMW fans will start to call the BMW own test driver an idiot, because even he seemed to agree the ATS 3.6, although not as good as the F30 335i in straight line performance, was better on the curves and at the corners.

The BMW guy actually said the 335i had less body roll, and was the better performer overall. He certainly didn't say the ATS was better at anything, I didn't hear that.

justinnum1 commented: November 28, 2012, 11:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90

The BMW guy actually said the 335i had less body roll, and was the better performer overall. He certainly didn't say the ATS was better at anything, I didn't hear that.

dtc100 hears only what he wants to. He probably wishes he got the GS instead of his boat, i mean the 535i.

tturedraider commented: November 28, 2012, 11:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I don't know when some of you BMW fans will start to call the BMW own test driver an idiot, because even he seemed to agree the ATS 3.6, although not as good as the F30 335i in straight line performance, was better on the curves and at the corners.

One thing I found it alarming is, it actually proved BJ's point again, our own BMW test driver did not even know ATS existed, he had to Google it to find out

I think you need to watch the video again. He didn't agree the ATS was better in the curves. He actually said the 335i had less body roll and a firmer suspension. He didn't really give the ATS anything. I caught that Google thing, too. I don't think it's true. I hope not.

This was far, far from an unbiased "review". They referred to Chris Hennecy as a current or former BMW owner (I also read the print version of the review), a member of the BMW CCA, and an SCCA member as if his profession is racing. One small detail they left out is that he is a little more than just a member of the BMW CCA. He is the head of BMW CCA marketing. His profession isn't racing. He has a master's degree in marketing and that is his profession.

dtc100 commented: November 28, 2012, 12:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I think you need to watch the video again. He didn't agree the ATS was better in the curves. He actually said the 335i had less body roll and a firmer suspension. He didn't really give the ATS anything. I caught that Google thing, too. I don't think it's true. I hope not.

This was far, far from an unbiased "review". They referred to Chris Hennecy as a current or former BMW owner (I also read the print version of the review), a member of the BMW CCA, and an SCCA member as if his profession is racing. One small detail they left out is that he is a little more than just a member of the BMW CCA. He is the head of BMW CCA marketing. His profession isn't racing. He has a master's degree in marketing and that is his profession.

I certainly heard his comment about the 335i having firmer suspension and less body roll, I was very surprised since it went against pretty much all other reviews, and of my own back to back test drives. The difference may be the test track vs. back roads. They probably did not know the ATS also had a sport mode, first Google attempt usually comes a little short on the information, especially when Chris' more familiar GM name was that of the Malibu

However the conclusion of the review, as that Yahoo reviewer said, was that the ATS was better at the curves, although not at straight, therefore I assumed the BMW guy seemed to agree (he certainly nodded when the guy was talking). Having provided all the input to that Yahoo reviewer, I think he would have objected to that conclusion had he disagreed.

Clearly having more fun at the curves and corners was why both of them agreed, although the ATS came a bit short, it was a good first attempt.

Chris90 commented: November 28, 2012, 12:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I certainly heard his comment about the 335i having firmer suspension and less body roll, I was very surprised since it went against pretty much all other reviews, and of my own back to back test drives. However the conclusion of the review, as that Yahoo reviewer said, was that the ATS was better at the curves, although not at straight, therefore I assumed the BMW guy seemed to agree. Having provided all the input to that Yahoo reviewer, I think he would have objected to that conclusion had he disagreed.

Clearly having more fun at the curves and corners was why both of them agreed, although the ATS came a bit short, it was a good first attempt.

I didn't hear that - at best the BMW said it was a good effort, he never said it was more fun or better at anything.

What do you expect him to say if he works for BMW?

tturedraider commented: November 28, 2012, 12:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90

I didn't hear that - at best the BMW said it was a good effort, he never said it was more fun or better at anything.

What do you expect him to say if he works for BMW?

Just to be clear - he doesn't work for BMW. He works for BMW CCA, which is an independent organization. They do drink the BMW kool aid, but it is not at all uncommon for their writers to also voice criticism of BMW. However, he is not a writer. He is the marketing guy.

dtc100 commented: November 28, 2012, 12:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90

I didn't hear that - at best the BMW said it was a good effort, he never said it was more fun or better at anything.

What do you expect him to say if he works for BMW?

The Yahoo guy said the ATS was more fun on the curves and at the corners, Chris sat in the ATS while he had some fun playing, they then stepped out of the ATS and agreed on something. To me it says something. It is precisely because I did not expect much from Chris, his nod seemed to me more than what he admitted. Chris did say the ATS drove like E46. I don't know what he thinks about the E46, I assumed he liked E46.

voip-ninja commented: November 28, 2012, 2:23 pm

If the ATS had been available in the market when I ordered my F30 I would have at least considered it.

I actually believe that GM engineers very good vehicles and the work being done at Cadillac is impressive.

My biggest gripe with Caddy is the 'old man' image as well as the interior that looks like it belongs in a Neon, not a $45K+ luxury sedan.

tturedraider commented: November 28, 2012, 3:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

The Yahoo guy said the ATS was more fun on the curves and at the corners, Chris sat in the ATS while he had some fun playing, they then stepped out of the ATS and agreed on something. To me it says something. It is precisely because I did not expect much from Chris, his nod seemed to me more than what he admitted. Chris did say the ATS drove like E46. I don't know what he thinks about the E46, I assumed he liked E46.

That wasn't Chris comparing the ATS to the E46. That was the reviewer. Chris, in fact, brought it back to the F30 335i.

boramkiv commented: November 28, 2012, 6:32 pm

This is getting ridiculous now. It's as if the 3 series is the ONLY car that this ATS is even comparable to. I remember when the G37 coupe came out, it wasn't this bad. These journalists make GM seem as if they are desparate. All this is doing is making the 3 series look that much better. The only car in this segment any car company has to make a car better than is the 3 series. Really? This ATS wil be forgotten in 2 years.

justinnum1 commented: November 28, 2012, 6:38 pm

imitation is the sincerest form flattery

dtc100 commented: November 29, 2012, 11:56 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinnum1

imitation is the sincerest form flattery

This is true in general. There are a few points to make here.

The ATS dose not imitate the current 3, rather the one two generations ago, and the imitation is limited to the chassis for the most part. So far most reviews seem to like that part of attempt.

The other aspect of it, the body style and gadgetry are distinctly unique or cutting edge, so much so they are risky. People either love or hate them.

I think it is a welcome effort in today's play safe, blend in kind of environment. The world advances not because the mass conforms to the norm, but because there are always a few rebels who want to stir things up.

tturedraider commented: November 29, 2012, 12:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramkiv

This is getting ridiculous now. It's as if the 3 series is the ONLY car that this ATS is even comparable to. I remember when the G37 coupe came out, it wasn't this bad. These journalists make GM seem as if they are desparate. All this is doing is making the 3 series look that much better. The only car in this segment any car company has to make a car better than is the 3 series. Really? This ATS wil be forgotten in 2 years.

By the time the G37 coupe came out the G hullabaloo was over. However, that does raise a really good point. When the G35 first came out C&D asked if it was going to be the 3 Series killer. It did very well. I was very impressed with it. Now that I'm reminded of that I was much more impressed with it than I am the ATS.

I don't know if the G35 caused this level of angst in the 3er world. Probably not. Internet forums were still pretty much in their infancy then. Bimmerfest was only a year or so old. But, in the automotive press the speculation about whether it could topple King 3 was certainly all the buzz.

But, Infiniti couldn't keep their focus and by the time the next iteration of the G came around the G had become another "also ran". That could certainly easily happen to the ATS. Infiniti certainly had a lot less baggage than Caddy does and a better reputation (though short) of actually building successful sport sedans, the original Q45 and J30.

With all this gnashing of teeth over the ATS and the 3er it is worth noting that Cadillac has made a very public point of the fact that the 3er was their benchmark, NOT the A4, NOT the C Class, Not the G, NOT th IS. In fact the 3er is everyone's benchmark in this class.

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: November 29, 2012, 1:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider

By the time the G37 coupe came out the G hullabaloo was over. However, that does raise a really good point. When the G35 first came out C&D asked if it was going to be the 3 Series killer. It did very well. I was very impressed with it. Now that I'm reminded of that I was much more impressed with it than I am the ATS.

But, Infiniti couldn't keep their focus and by the time the next iteration of the G came around the G had become another "also ran". That could certainly easily happen to the ATS. Infiniti certainly had a lot less baggage than Caddy does and a better reputation (though short) of actually building successful sport sedans, the original Q45 and J30.

With all this gnashing of teeth over the ATS and the 3er it is worth noting that Cadillac has made a very public point of the fact that the 3er was their benchmark, NOT the A4, NOT the C Class, Not the G, NOT th IS. In fact the 3er is everyone's benchmark in this class.

Use to be at least.

WilliCO commented: November 29, 2012, 1:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Use to be at least.

No, it's still the benchmark, but its position is somewhat more threatened than in the past.

The Honda Accord is further down the path. For years, decades, it has been the benchmark family economy sedan. It probably still is, but just barely as there are any number of competing offerings now that most people would agree are just as good or better.

Speaking of the G, boy has Infiniti waited a long time to redesign that. I'm actually pretty interested to see what they do with it next. Based on the number of them I see driving here and there, it did a lot more damage to the 3's dominance than I expect the ATS will.

tturedraider commented: November 29, 2012, 1:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJGreer

No, it's still the benchmark, but its position is somewhat more threatened than in the past.

The Honda Accord is further down the path. For years, decades, it has been the benchmark family economy sedan. It probably still is, but just barely as there are any number of competing offerings now that most people would agree are just as good or better.

Speaking of the G, boy has Infiniti waited a long time to redesign that. I'm actually pretty interested to see what they do with it next. Based on the number of them I see driving here and there, it did a lot more damage to the 3's dominance than I expect the ATS will.

Good points.

One of the myriad challenges BMW is up against (not the least of which are the changing demands of the market segment) is that automotive performance design and technology is approaching its peak and experiencing the point of diminishing returns. In addition, economies of scale are making all these automotive advancements, many of which BMW pioneered (in car communication technology, vehicle safety and performance enhancing systems, and many others) available to the mass market, no longer limited to the initial innovators. In many ways BMW is becoming a victim of its own success.

av98 commented: November 29, 2012, 1:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

Very good point.

+2

It would be nice to see an objective review that doesn't involve anybody from the respective car companies or any association at all.

Having driven the E46 and E9x variants the E9x chassis is noticeably stiffer than the E46.

WilliCO commented: November 29, 2012, 2:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Good points.

One of the myriad challenges BMW is up against (not the least of which are the changing demands of the market segment) is that automotive performance design and technology is approaching its peak and experiencing the point of diminishing returns. In addition, economies of scale are making all these automotive advancements, many of which BMW pioneered (in car communication technology, vehicle safety and performance enhancing systems, and many others) available to the mass market, no longer limited to the initial innovators. In many ways BMW is becoming a victim of its own success.

Absolutely, and cars that cost far less than BMWs are beginning to approach BMW in terms of feature, function, and driving experience. For all the love the E46 gets around here, recall that it was competing against the dreck the industry was putting out in the 90s. I wonder how a brand new one would fare against, say, a contemporary Acura TSX.

(I'm just like the guys who wonder how Joe Lewis in his prime would have done against Tyson in his. We'll never know.)

boramkiv commented: November 29, 2012, 4:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider

In many ways BMW is becoming a victim of its own success.

BINGO!
For this reason I said to myself a few years back BMW should reserve the 9 series name for something this generation has not seen. If one day all of a sudden a car company designs a breakthrough in automotive design, technology, performance, flight, or whatever we should move into that direction bringing a piece of history along (in the name).
They can call the rest of the cars whatever they want after that.

This does make me wonder if the other brands Rolls and Mini will have to move more upscale and downscale so BMW can widen its gap to continue on its past success.. It's hard to see Rolls getting more upscale.

tturedraider commented: November 29, 2012, 4:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJGreer

Absolutely, and cars that cost far less than BMWs are beginning to approach BMW in terms of feature, function, and driving experience. For all the love the E46 gets around here, recall that it was competing against the dreck the industry was putting out in the 90s. I wonder how a brand new one would fare against, say, a contemporary Acura TSX.

(I'm just like the guys who wonder how Joe Lewis in his prime would have done against Tyson in his. We'll never know.)

Mark Spitz v Michael Phelps. When my college biology professor was a graduate student he had Mark Spitz as a student. They tested his lung capacity. They had to use a machine they normally use on cows!

tturedraider commented: November 29, 2012, 4:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramkiv

BINGO!
For this reason I said to myself a few years back BMW should reserve the 9 series name for something this generation has not seen. If one day all of a sudden a car company designs a breakthrough in automotive design, technology, performance, flight, or whatever we should move into that direction bringing a piece of history along (in the name).
They can call the rest of the cars whatever they want after that.

This does make me wonder if the other brands Rolls and Mini will have to move more upscale and downscale so BMW can widen its gap to continue on its past success.. It's hard to see Rolls getting more upscale.

BMW i.

HugH commented: November 29, 2012, 5:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJGreer

Absolutely, and cars that cost far less than BMWs are beginning to approach BMW in terms of feature, function, and driving experience. For all the love the E46 gets around here, recall that it was competing against the dreck the industry was putting out in the 90s. I wonder how a brand new one would fare against, say, a contemporary Acura TSX.

(I'm just like the guys who wonder how Joe Lewis in his prime would have done against Tyson in his. We'll never know.)

Well, I got rid of my 2004 E46 because my wife hated it. She wanted a car that was more like a Lexus. Since we were both retired and down to one car, I sold the E46 and leased a '2007. Lexus GS350 thinking that maybe both of us could be satisfied. My wife was happier than I was with the Lexus. Other than the 306 hp engine, the car didn't hold a candle to the E46...period! I never got to like the steering, breaks, ride and handling and the car never showed the straight line stability and absence of wind noise at high speeds as the E46.

We went from the GS to a ES 350 because this car, at least does one thing right, it's quiet and comfy, the way a Lexus should be at a cost of considerably less.

The lease will mature in Feb on the Lexus ES350 and I am presently negotiating on a F30 lease.
If I don't get a good deal on a 328i with all the toys that I want, it will be back to the new boring Lexus.

Lorenzzo commented: November 29, 2012, 5:17 pm

I'm single, living in California. I'm not driving up in a Cadillac. I'm just not.

justinnum1 commented: November 29, 2012, 5:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorenzzo

I'm single, living in California. I'm not driving up in a Cadillac. I'm just not.

boltjaM3s commented: November 29, 2012, 5:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorenzzo

I'm single, living in California. I'm not driving up in a Cadillac. I'm just not.

Oh, yes you are.

See, the ATS isn't a "Cadillac". It's a sports car. It's an enthusiasts dream. It's the E46 reborn. They made it just for you. Don't tell me that you won't give it a chance because the brand is associated with 70 year old grandfathers. Don't tell me the comparo's in the magazines aren't making a difference. I don't want to hear it. I won't hear it.

BJ

Chris90 commented: November 29, 2012, 7:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorenzzo

I'm single, living in California. I'm not driving up in a Cadillac. I'm just not.

Don't you like being single?

hellosopo commented: November 29, 2012, 8:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorenzzo

I'm single, living in California. I'm not driving up in a Cadillac. I'm just not.

Women who judge you based on your car aren't worth your time.

boltjaM3s commented: November 29, 2012, 8:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellosopo

Women who judge you based on your car aren't worth your time.

So you don't like hot women.

That's cool, some dudes are into that kind of thing.

BJ

LX-biker commented: January 1, 2013, 1:10 pm

Any copy or substitution I would consider if price is less, but it's not the case with ATS, not cosiderably. In addition uknown resale or residual vaule. So why bother? I don't have extra cash to burn experimenting with something like new ATS or IS300 in the past. From this simple view, I don't care about ATS, G8, Genesis, Kizashi and so on.

voip-ninja commented: January 1, 2013, 1:12 pm

ATS is a very capable car, and you don't have to worry about resale/residual.... just do what most do here and lease it. If you aren't impressed at lease end then hand the dealer the keys and walk off to your next ride. Effectively your residual is locked in and protected in a lease, so you can consider it a "try before you buy" option.

I would have considered the ATS if it had been available when I ordered my 328xi, but the interior styling is somewhat polarizing to me and might have swayed me to avoid it... but I would have test driven it, by all measures it is a very good vehicle.

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 8:53 pm

Although the car relatively pricey, the ATS lease rates I saw are aggressive. I don't see them winning significant ground, but Caddy is really trying.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 8:57 pm

The only ATS rates I have seen advertised is for the base 2.5L car. The 2.5 is rental car fodder. It allows value shoppers to see the low price and step into the door. If they want to snag you E90 guys, the 2.5L is not going to do it. All this hatred for the N20, yeah, go drive an NA 4 cylinder ATS and comfort yourself in the slightly better steering.

I love how dealers get it wrong and say the 2.5L is a 6 cylinder lol.

krash commented: January 7, 2013, 6:01 am

The ATS is really nice. I could see myself having one. The only problem for GM is that I still prefer the BMW 3 series over it.

ilhan1103 commented: January 7, 2013, 6:24 am

I live in yurop, so I don't really get the fuss about the ATS here, but I think you guys are discussing the wrong aspects of the car(s).

the single most important reason why you should (not) buy an ATS :

IT IS HIDEOUS!!!!

LegendsNeverDie commented: January 7, 2013, 7:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilhan1103

I live in yurop, so I don't really get the fuss about the ATS here, but I think you guys are discussing the wrong aspects of the car(s).

the single most important reason why you should buy an ATS :

IT IS GORGEOUS!!!!

I fixed it for you.

All kidding aside, exterior styling (IMO ofcourse) is one the best attributes of the ATS.

boltjaM3s commented: January 7, 2013, 8:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

I fixed it for you.

All kidding aside, exterior styling (IMO ofcourse) is one the best attributes of the ATS.

And IMO I think the ATS is one seriously unattractive car. I never really liked the styling of the CTS, but the reality is all Cadillac did was clone it and and cheapen it. The ATS looks much better in photographs than it does in person, and I've seen a couple to know.

BJ

LegendsNeverDie commented: January 7, 2013, 8:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

And IMO I think the ATS is one seriously unattractive car. I never really liked the styling of the CTS, but the reality is all Cadillac did was clone it and and cheapen it. The ATS looks much better in photographs than it does in person, and I've seen a couple to know.

BJ

I disagree. It looks fantastic! Much better than the CTS. I looks much better in person than in photos. Reality is that all BMW did was clone the F10 and cheapen it when it comes to F30. Big and bloated looking, IMO.

dtc100 commented: January 7, 2013, 10:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

The only ATS rates I have seen advertised is for the base 2.5L car. The 2.5 is rental car fodder. It allows value shoppers to see the low price and step into the door. If they want to snag you E90 guys, the 2.5L is not going to do it. All this hatred for the N20, yeah, go drive an NA 4 cylinder ATS and comfort yourself in the slightly better steering.

I love how dealers get it wrong and say the 2.5L is a 6 cylinder lol.

They have just started to advertise the base 2.0T for $299, although with money down.

I don't think the ATS is a beauty, but it isn't bad. I agree the F30 is too bloated not necessarily because of the bigger size than before, but the front hood and bumper design. The good thing though you can order the m-sport to change the look.

The ATS does not have such sporty option yet. To take on 3 series in this segment, they need to offer more choices.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 7, 2013, 11:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

They have just started to advertise the base 2.0T for $299, although with money down.

I don't think the ATS is a beauty, but it isn't bad. I agree the F30 is too bloated not necessarily because of the bigger size than before, but the front hood and bumper design. The good thing though you can order the m-sport to change the look.

The ATS does not have such sporty option yet. To take on 3 series in this segment, they need to offer more choices.

I have seen no mention of the 2.0T in a TV commercial 299 ad. The Ad above is a dealer specific deal with no money down. The TV ad for $299 for the 2.5 is still with a few grand down.

dtc100 commented: January 7, 2013, 1:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I have seen no mention of the 2.0T in a TV commercial 299 ad. The Ad above is a dealer specific deal with no money down. The TV ad for $299 for the 2.5 is still with a few grand down.

The above 2.0T offer is on the Cadillac website, which is usually the same on TV, when and if it goes on TV that is.

It was for a base 2.0T auto, the 2.0T with manual will cost less, and comes with LSD standard for manual only.

shabadoo25 commented: January 7, 2013, 2:10 pm

I finally saw one of these on the road the other day. If I HAD to own a Cadillac, it would probably be the ATS.

But, only if I had to.

bmw_or_audi commented: January 7, 2013, 2:10 pm

The ATS has that seriously overused composition/design rule of 1/3rd window and 2/3rd body panel at the rear. I find all car designs strictly following that rule unattractive to hideous, not to mention functionally compromised by poor rear and rear-side visibility. BMW and Audi have not fallen for that stupid fad. To me, that says something about their design philosophies.

dtc100 commented: January 7, 2013, 2:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

The ATS has that seriously overused composition/design rule of 1/3rd window and 2/3rd body panel at the rear. I find all car designs strictly following that rule unattractive to hideous, not to mention functionally compromised by poor rear and rear-side visibility. BMW and Audi have not fallen for that stupid fad. To me, that says something about their design philosophies.

Cadillac's new design language certainly is not for everyone, but in the sea of copycats these days, they do stand on its own, which can appeal to those who do not want to blend in.

LegendsNeverDie commented: January 7, 2013, 3:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

The ATS has that seriously overused composition/design rule of 1/3rd window and 2/3rd body panel at the rear. I find all car designs strictly following that rule unattractive to hideous, not to mention functionally compromised by poor rear and rear-side visibility. BMW and Audi have not fallen for that stupid fad. To me, that says something about their design philosophies.

I find the ATS exterior styling to be very sporty and at the same time very elegant. Everything flows very well and is proportional. The F30 on the other hand is rather bland. BMW certainly played it safe with the design rather being more innovative. It doesn't look bad at all, just a little bloated and boring. The E46 was flawless, almost perfect in every way.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 7, 2013, 3:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

The above 2.0T offer is on the Cadillac website, which is usually the same on TV, when and if it goes on TV that is.

It was for a base 2.0T auto, the 2.0T with manual will cost less, and comes with LSD standard for manual only.

Gotta link? I checked the web a week ago and so saw no such thing.

Maybe they are amping things up for the new year, it's also AutoShow time in Detroit.

dtc100 commented: January 7, 2013, 4:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Gotta link? I checked the web a week ago and so saw no such thing.

Maybe they are amping things up for the new year, it's also AutoShow time in Detroit.

ATS 2.0T production started much later than 2.5 and 3.6. They planned the 2.0T as the volume leader, but only had 2.5 on the lot in the first few months.

The ATS has that seriously overused composition/design rule of 1/3rd window and 2/3rd body panel at the rear. I find all car designs strictly following that rule unattractive to hideous, not to mention functionally compromised by poor rear and rear-side visibility. BMW and Audi have not fallen for that stupid fad. To me, that says something about their design philosophies.

I can't say I find the F30 or the A4 particularly attractive although the Audi is more fluid. My 2011 E90 is OK but not great and I don't find the visibility to be that great especially due to the thick A pillar which I'm sure is there for added chassis stiffness. In person the ATS has a nice taut look and the headlights are a strong point. The F30 headlights have grown on me but are still far from artistic. Overall I find the ATS to be a modern interpretation of the Cadillac folded metal look which is their signature.

Kamdog commented: January 7, 2013, 4:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Yeah, and all over a car that no BMW owner would be caught dead in.

BJ

You are so wrong about this.

Lots of hearses are Caddys

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 7, 2013, 5:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

ATS 2.0T production started much later than 2.5 and 3.6. They planned the 2.0T as the volume leader, but only had 2.5 on the lot in the first few months.

Yeah, that's new, the ATS didn't even show on my screen when I put my ZIP in a week ago.

That $299 is based on an MSRP of $35k. BMW seems to not want to play that game lol. I have not seen an lease based on an MSRP of under $40k.

I sure would have been tempted by an ATS 6mt 2.0T for $299 a month. They could not put me into a Buick GS which I tested for under $400.

I built a base 2.0T with heated seats, security and moonroof. Has a nice MSRP of $36.500. It does not mirror my M-Sport in equipment, but I like the price.

When I got a closer match to my M-Sport I added the performance model and had an MSRP of $44.350, a grand more. But it does have Brembos and an LSD. A lot of buyers do not know what either of those things are lol.

dtc100 commented: January 7, 2013, 8:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Yeah, that's new, the ATS didn't even show on my screen when I put my ZIP in a week ago.

That $299 is based on an MSRP of $35k. BMW seems to not want to play that game lol. I have not seen an lease based on an MSRP of under $40k.

I sure would have been tempted by an ATS 6mt 2.0T for $299 a month. They could not put me into a Buick GS which I tested for under $400.

I built a base 2.0T with heated seats, security and moonroof. Has a nice MSRP of $36.500. It does not mirror my M-Sport in equipment, but I like the price.

When I got a closer match to my M-Sport I added the performance model and had an MSRP of $44.350, a grand more. But it does have Brembos and an LSD. A lot of buyers do not know what either of those things are lol.

The ATS 2.0T manual has LSD and Brembos (front) included for $34k MSRP then.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 7, 2013, 9:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

The ATS 2.0T manual has LSD and Brembos (front) included for $34k MSRP then.

So then what justifies the $8k jump besides real leather?

dtc100 commented: January 7, 2013, 11:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

So then what justifies the $8k jump besides real leather?

Maybe GM's way to attract a few remaining manual drivers by giving them a big price break. If auto is a must, you do have to pay $44k MSRP to get LSD.

boltjaM3s commented: January 7, 2013, 11:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamdog

You are so wrong about this.

Lots of hearses are Caddys

I'll take the final ride in this methinks.

BJ

captainaudio commented: January 7, 2013, 11:34 pm

dtc100 commented: January 8, 2013, 12:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Hmm, ambulance chaser as well

CALWATERBOY commented: January 8, 2013, 12:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Cadillac is a rebadged Chevy.

Chevy is a rebadged Cadillac.

Reedo302 commented: January 8, 2013, 1:13 am

I have looked at the ATS, and I am fine with the design. I don't find it to be some amazingly beautiful car, but it's not hideous either. The issue I have with the modern Cadillacs is that it seems like they took pictures of an F117 stealth fighter bomber and said "Hey, let's make it look like that!". They basically took a giant clay mould and chopped a bunch of edges and off-angle lines into it, then put it into production. I look at the ATS, as well as the CTS and STS and wonder if the purpose is to defeat surface to air missiles.
In all seriousness, I just see no soul in the design of the Cadillacs. If you ever watch the BMW specials on TV about how they do their designs and develop everything from the look of the headlights to the sound the doors make when open, you see that they put extensive thought into everything. They really espouse the concept of driving passion. I don't get that feeling from Cadillac. Now granted, I'm not a huge Bangle fan, and the new de-Bangled stuff looks absolutely amazing. BUT, I still found some beauty in what was produced under the Bangle design. I'd take a Cadillac over anything else GM produces, but only because I would have to.

I have a lot of problems with Cadillac, but it's because it's an American brand. I don't care about the history, I care about what I know of American cars. My 1999 M Coupe interior was in better shape in 2010 than the interior of my 2003 Chevy Suburban was in 2005. American cars have had very poor quality interior build quality, and the quality of trim parts, buttons, latches and whatnot has always been relatively cheap. For a long time, they've all looked like they were made by Tyco Toys. Now interiors are getting better, but I have yet to see anything that reassures me that American build quality is any near to being in the ballpark of German build quality. I don't care what technology Cadillac puts into the car, what matters is how that technology fares 5-6 years from now when I'm knocking on the 100,000 mile threshold. Creaks? Squeaks? Rattles? Not only that, but American cars, in my experience, do not stand up well to hard use. The harder I drove my Bimmers, the more reliable they were. Every American or Japanese car I've owned has had progressive issues with hard use.

Then there's the issue of GM needing a government bailout, and the fact that I despise the UAW, and I can't bring myself to buy a Cadillac.

LegendsNeverDie commented: January 8, 2013, 7:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reedo302

I have looked at the ATS, and I am fine with the design. I don't find it to be some amazingly beautiful car, but it's not hideous either. The issue I have with the modern Cadillacs is that it seems like they took pictures of an F117 stealth fighter bomber and said "Hey, let's make it look like that!". They basically took a giant clay mould and chopped a bunch of edges and off-angle lines into it, then put it into production. I look at the ATS, as well as the CTS and STS and wonder if the purpose is to defeat surface to air missiles.
In all seriousness, I just see no soul in the design of the Cadillacs. If you ever watch the BMW specials on TV about how they do their designs and develop everything from the look of the headlights to the sound the doors make when open, you see that they put extensive thought into everything. They really espouse the concept of driving passion. I don't get that feeling from Cadillac. Now granted, I'm not a huge Bangle fan, and the new de-Bangled stuff looks absolutely amazing. BUT, I still found some beauty in what was produced under the Bangle design. I'd take a Cadillac over anything else GM produces, but only because I would have to.

I have a lot of problems with Cadillac, but it's because it's an American brand. I don't care about the history, I care about what I know of American cars. My 1999 M Coupe interior was in better shape in 2010 than the interior of my 2003 Chevy Suburban was in 2005. American cars have had very poor quality interior build quality, and the quality of trim parts, buttons, latches and whatnot has always been relatively cheap. For a long time, they've all looked like they were made by Tyco Toys. Now interiors are getting better, but I have yet to see anything that reassures me that American build quality is any near to being in the ballpark of German build quality. I don't care what technology Cadillac puts into the car, what matters is how that technology fares 5-6 years from now when I'm knocking on the 100,000 mile threshold. Creaks? Squeaks? Rattles? Not only that, but American cars, in my experience, do not stand up well to hard use. The harder I drove my Bimmers, the more reliable they were. Every American or Japanese car I've owned has had progressive issues with hard use.

Then there's the issue of GM needing a government bailout, and the fact that I despise the UAW, and I can't bring myself to buy a Cadillac.

You should see the interior trim of my 09 328i, peeling on the steering wheel, driver's side window control trim, on cold days radio display will dim and sometimes the radio itself won't work. The driver's seat leather did not age well considering the mileage of the vehicle. Not exactly very high quality built if you ask me. I am not even going to get into the multiple VW brand vehicles I have owned because the quality and service I have encountered with those was beyond embarrassing. The most reliable, highest quality built vehicle I have owned was a TSX. In my experience German cars were by far the most unreliable vehicles I have owned. I am actually very impressed by the increased quality and service domestic brands currently offer over more expensive imports, particularly European ones. Just my 2 cents.

ilhan1103 commented: January 8, 2013, 8:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

You should see the interior trim of my 09 328i, peeling on the steering wheel, driver's side window control trim, on cold days radio display will dim and sometimes the radio itself won't work. The driver's seat leather did not age well considering the mileage of the vehicle. Not exactly very high quality built if you ask me. I am not even going to get into the multiple VW brand vehicles I have owned because the quality and service I have encountered with those was beyond embarrassing. The most reliable, highest quality built vehicle I have owned was a TSX. In my experience German cars were by far the most unreliable vehicles I have owned. I am actually very impressed by the increased quality and service domestic brands currently offer over more expensive imports, particularly European ones. Just my 2 cents.

How many miles did you have on it?

My e90 had close to 250000km on it this fall (it was built in '08 summer) It had the Msport interior and I must say the leather on the gearshift knob thingy didnt look new anymore but no actual peeling as you describe it. Seats, plastic and alu dash parts were all mint condition.

LegendsNeverDie commented: January 8, 2013, 9:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilhan1103

How many miles did you have on it?

My e90 had close to 250000km on it this fall (it was built in '08 summer) It had the Msport interior and I must say the leather on the gearshift knob thingy didnt look new anymore but no actual peeling as you describe it. Seats, plastic and alu dash parts were all mint condition.

I still have it. Just at about 45K, I really like the I6 and the sport package. The car is fantastic, however it does have some quality interior trim issues as described above.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 8, 2013, 9:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Maybe GM's way to attract a few remaining manual drivers by giving them a big price break. If auto is a must, you do have to pay $44k MSRP to get LSD.

Then honestly, the appealing one to me is the base car for $35k. I think it gets less appealing/competitive as the price begins to line up with the F30.

If they could have given me a 6mt 2.0T with an LSD for about $299 a month, I may be on another forum. I wound up not even leasing as my M-Sport would have been like $500 a month.

ilhan1103 commented: January 8, 2013, 9:27 am

Then either you had some horrible car made during octoberfest and then hidden in the lot with the normal cars, or I'm sorry to say this: you did a horrible job maintaining it.

I'm by no means an expert but around 20 people at work here have e90s (and the touring version is it e91?) all from 2007 and 2008 and none of them had any of the complaints/problems you describe.

LegendsNeverDie commented: January 8, 2013, 10:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilhan1103

Then either you had some horrible car made during octoberfest and then hidden in the lot with the normal cars, or I'm sorry to say this: you did a horrible job maintaining it.

I'm by no means an expert but around 20 people at work here have e90s (and the touring version is it e91?) all from 2007 and 2008 and none of them had any of the complaints/problems you describe.

Funny you mentioned. I feel partially responsible for the leather condition of the driver's seat. Most of the time I drive in jeans and rarely clean it. However the issues with the steering wheel, window control trim and exterior window trim (glossy sport package trim) wearing off are very common. You can do a quick search on any E90 forum and find out for yourself. These are not major issues but still unacceptable IMO. BTW my car is 2009 MY LCI with early 2009 built.

WilliCO commented: January 8, 2013, 10:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reedo302

My 1999 M Coupe interior was in better shape in 2010 than the interior of my 2003 Chevy Suburban was in 2005.

Gotta agree here. My 2005 545 interior looks pretty much new except for a few high-touch spots getting a little shiny. My 2004 Explorer looks like an old car inside, even though it's in good condition.

I realize 1978 was a lifetime ago...but my first car was a '78 Chevy Monte Carlo, which I got in 1986, making it 8 years old. My 545 has an in-service date in 2004, making it eight years old also. Setting aside mechanical reliability, the appearance of age between the two cars is, frankly, dramatic. The Monte's headliner had fallen out, the material on the seats was disintegrating, and the paint was completely oxidized. I know that GM is doing a better job now, but until these cars turn eight or ten years old I'm not sure how much better and my personal experience is what it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilhan1103

Then either you had some horrible car made during octoberfest and then hidden in the lot with the normal cars, or I'm sorry to say this: you did a horrible job maintaining it.

Yeah, those results are not typical at all. Sounds like this guy lives at the beach and leaves his windows down all night. Or something.

LegendsNeverDie commented: January 8, 2013, 10:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJGreer

Gotta agree here. My 2005 545 interior looks pretty much new except for a few high-touch spots getting a little shiny. My 2004 Explorer looks like an old car inside, even though it's in good condition.

I realize 1978 was a lifetime ago...but my first car was a '78 Chevy Monte Carlo, which I got in 1986, making it 8 years old. My 545 has an in-service date in 2004, making it eight years old also. Setting aside mechanical reliability, the appearance of age between the two cars is, frankly, dramatic. The Monte's headliner had fallen out, the material on the seats was disintegrating, and the paint was completely oxidized. I know that GM is doing a better job now, but until these cars turn eight or ten years old I'm not sure how much better and my personal experience is what it is.
Yeah, those results are not typical at all. Sounds like this guy lives at the beach and leaves his windows down all night. Or something.

I am not even going to post complaints from other forums but there are plenty more.

No sale. Internet forums are 95% people bitching about bad experiences they've had. The content of the posts not at all represents the broad ownership experience.

LegendsNeverDie commented: January 8, 2013, 11:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJGreer

No sale. Internet forums are 95% people bitching about bad experiences they've had. The content of the posts not at all represents the broad ownership experience.

Yeah they all made it up.

dtc100 commented: January 8, 2013, 12:26 pm

Recently Cadillac has been rated much higher than BMW in JD Power's new car satisfaction survey. But the reality is, we don't drive theses cars for reliability and durability reasons. Most of them are short term leases. Fun driving is what they are about.

WilliCO commented: January 8, 2013, 12:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

Yeah they all made it up.

I'm sure they didn't make it up. My point is that if a car's satisfaction rating were 99.95%, the remaining .05% would be hugely overrepresented on an internet forum.

CALWATERBOY commented: January 8, 2013, 1:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reedo302

I have looked at the ATS, and I am fine with the design. I don't find it to be some amazingly beautiful car, but it's not hideous either. The issue I have with the modern Cadillacs is that it seems like they took pictures of an F117 stealth fighter bomber and said "Hey, let's make it look like that!". They basically took a giant clay mould and chopped a bunch of edges and off-angle lines into it, then put it into production. I look at the ATS, as well as the CTS and STS and wonder if the purpose is to defeat surface to air missiles.

Excellent observation.

I believe that, with a radar absorbing clear-coat, this Scourge of Munich will present a radar profile too small to detect.

chris328 commented: January 8, 2013, 1:57 pm

i thought they treid to make it look ugly and boring, for old people.

ilhan1103 commented: January 8, 2013, 7:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris328

i thought they treid to make it look ugly and boring, for old people.

And they did an excellent job at that

Elk commented: January 8, 2013, 8:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris328

i thought they treid to make it look ugly and boring, for old people.

As opposed to BMWs which are styled to be staid and safe for the older end of middle-aged people.

Pick your poison.

WilliCO commented: January 8, 2013, 8:15 pm

I sat down in a 370Z the other day. Nice car, really, and superbly priced for the level of performance you get. But, seriously, the interior of that car looked like it was aimed at a 21 year old. It looked like a transformer that hadn't transformed yet.

So, maybe I'm the staid, middle-aged guy BMW is aiming at. I like what they do better.

boramkiv commented: January 12, 2013, 11:06 pm

I went to the Hampton Roads International Auto Show today and decided to check out the ATS. It wasn't a real looker. I think they had the base model on the floor for display. The thing is there were so many elderly people surrounding the car that I could barely get a chance to sit in the thing. Cadillac has a reputation that will take decades to turn around. You can even see a walker the lady was using to get around in the photo. This is a sporty Cadillac, not sure if it would be driven that way.

boltjaM3s commented: January 12, 2013, 11:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramkiv

I went to the Hampton Roads International Auto Show today and decided to check out the ATS. It wasn't a real looker. I think they had the base model on the floor for display. The thing is there were so many elderly people surrounding the car that I could barely get a chance to sit in the thing. Cadillac has a reputation that will take decades to turn around. You can even see a walker the lady was using to get around in the photo. This is a sporty Cadillac, not sure if it would be driven that way.

Love it.

"Look Laverne, it's an inexpensive Cadillac! I think on our fixed income we can afford the $299 a month. I'm getting that HurryCane I saw on TV. It folds down so it'll fit in the trunk. Let's go to the all-you-can-eat early bird at Mabel's, soak our dentures, and talk it over."

BJ

Saintor commented: January 13, 2013, 7:49 am

'Boring' isn't the adjective I would use.

dtc100 commented: January 13, 2013, 11:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

'Boring' isn't the adjective I would use.

BJ was right about many seniors looking at the ATSs at auto shows. However, seniors are the most affluent demographics in the US now, especially those looking at luxury brands.

I have said this many times, for ATS to change Caddy's image, they need to have competitive leases. Those who just enter job market often cannot afford a 3 series, and since the 3 series can sell for more because there are plenty of established buyers out there who are willing to pay for it, it will be out of reach for many younger drivers.

Here Caddy has an opening, unintended maybe, but whether they can see it or not is questionable.

BTW, I would not call ATS boring, it stands out quite apart from many other brands. But it still lacks options. In this super competitive segment, they need to learn from the boss, provide more trims and special order items, such as performance parts. They are not nearly as resourceful as BMW in this regard.

boramkiv commented: January 13, 2013, 12:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

BTW, I would not call ATS boring, it stands out quite apart from many other brands. But it still lacks options. In this super competitive segment, they need to learn from the boss, provide more trims and special order items, such as performance parts. They are not nearly as resourceful as BMW in this regard.

I can agree to some extent. Maybe the car isn't boring, but what makes it so attractive to the senior crowd? Is it the crest, or are they actually drawn to the design? I'm not sure they see the car, sit there and say to themselves "boy I'm sure this thing handles like it's on rails".

If they were to test drive the car and feel how stiff the setup is, would they walk away? I walked up to the car with an open mind, and my wife (who insists on never driving a Cadillac) thought it looked okay. It doesn't stand out from the rest, and that may be what it needs. The XTS right next to it had the average crowd gathered around it.

I just thought it was weird to see the ATS surrounded by that crowd, of course all the kids surrounding the CTS-V's right next to it wasn't helping either. I just don't think it's the looks that will attract the target segment, it's the way it drives. But in order to get them inside the car it has to have the looks.

Saintor commented: January 13, 2013, 12:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramkiv

I can agree to some extent. Maybe the car isn't boring, but what makes it so attractive to the senior crowd? Is it the crest, or are they actually drawn to the design? I'm not sure they see the car, sit there and say to themselves "boy I'm sure this thing handles like it's on rails".

I will say the 321HP 3.6 engine that doesn't sound like a Civic. It makes all the difference how the car feels. I'll venture to say that I would take an ATS 3.6 over a 328i (but not the 335i) for slighly less.

dtc100 commented: January 13, 2013, 1:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramkiv

If they were to test drive the car and feel how stiff the setup is, would they walk away?

My bet is once they sat in it, they walked away.

g37to335i commented: January 13, 2013, 4:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

My bet is once they sat in it, they walked away.

As promised DTC, the Q50 is out

Kamdog commented: January 13, 2013, 5:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramkiv

I went to the Hampton Roads International Auto Show today and decided to check out the ATS. It wasn't a real looker. I think they had the base model on the floor for display. The thing is there were so many elderly people surrounding the car that I could barely get a chance to sit in the thing. Cadillac has a reputation that will take decades to turn around. You can even see a walker the lady was using to get around in the photo. This is a sporty Cadillac, not sure if it would be driven that way.

OK, I just KNOW that you put that wheeled walker there and stuffed your grandma into the car, I just KNOW it, deny it if you will.....

boramkiv commented: January 13, 2013, 5:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamdog

OK, I just KNOW that you put that wheeled walker there and stuffed your grandma into the car, I just KNOW it, deny it if you will.....

Michael Schott commented: January 13, 2013, 9:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramkiv

I went to the Hampton Roads International Auto Show today and decided to check out the ATS. It wasn't a real looker. I think they had the base model on the floor for display. The thing is there were so many elderly people surrounding the car that I could barely get a chance to sit in the thing. Cadillac has a reputation that will take decades to turn around. You can even see a walker the lady was using to get around in the photo. This is a sporty Cadillac, not sure if it would be driven that way.

How may 3 series are driven anything other than sedately? Most are bought for the badge and the owners have moved up from Camry's and Accord's. Yes Cadillac has an image problem but who cares as long as the car drives well? BMW's image to many is pretty snobbish.

dtc100 commented: January 13, 2013, 10:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

How may 3 series are driven anything other than sedately? Most are bought for the badge and the owners have moved up from Camry's and Accord's. Yes Cadillac has an image problem but who cares as long as the car drives well? BMW's image to many is pretty snobbish.

Hey it's ok, Caddy does have image issue, it is also true at the auto shows there were mostly seniors looking at Caddies, and therefore the ATS.

I think if they play the card right, they will be able to recruit a lot more younger drivers, starting with ATS.

BTW, when it comes to driving enthusiasts, I am afraid the younger generations are less passionate about driving than older generations these days.

krash commented: January 13, 2013, 10:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

BTW, when it comes to driving enthusiasts, I am afraid the younger generations are less passionate about driving than older generations these days.

There is some truth to this. It's the Toyota Prius generation. There are a lot of 20 (and even 30) somethings out there that are more enamoured with hybrids than the F30.

However, my 16 year old and all his friends seem to be more into performance/enthusiast cars than the eco/green cars.

So hopefully a new wave of kids will pick up where we left off.

captainaudio commented: January 13, 2013, 10:56 pm

The oldest of the Baby Boomers are approaching retirement age. These Senior Citizens grew up with performance cars, GTOs, Boss Mustangs, Camaro Z28s and BMW 1600s and 2002s, Datsun 240Zs, etc,
Now that they are older and now that cars have evolved they may be looking for more creature comforts than when they were younger but they are not looking for the 21st Century reincarnation of a mid 60s Cadillac that isolates them from the road. This is a very affluent segment of the population and is very important to any car company.

CA

dtc100 commented: January 14, 2013, 4:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

BJ was right about many seniors looking at the ATSs at auto shows. However, seniors are the most affluent demographics in the US now, especially those looking at luxury brands.

I have said this many times, for ATS to change Caddy's image, they need to have competitive leases. Those who just enter job market often cannot afford a 3 series, and since the 3 series can sell for more because there are plenty of established buyers out there who are willing to pay for it, it will be out of reach for many younger drivers.

Here Caddy has an opening, unintended maybe, but whether they can see it or not is questionable.

BTW, I would not call ATS boring, it stands out quite apart from many other brands. But it still lacks options. In this super competitive segment, they need to learn from the boss, provide more trims and special order items, such as performance parts. They are not nearly as resourceful as BMW in this regard.

Oh well, just after I pointed out how the higher price people must pay to get the new 3 series (compared to other brands in this segment), and it gave other brands an opening, now BMW introduces the 320i, a detuned 3 series just to answer that.

Who said BMW does not listen?

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 14, 2013, 4:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Oh well, just after I pointed out how the higher price people must pay to get the new 3 series (compared to other brands in this segment), and it gave other brands an opening, now BMW introduces the 320i, a detuned 3 series just to answer that.

Who said BMW does not listen?

The F30 320i has been sold elsewhere for over a year.

It was kind of a no brainer after seeing Cadillac brag about the $33k price point and $299 a month leases.

dtc100 commented: January 14, 2013, 4:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

It was kind of a no brainer after seeing Cadillac brag about the $33k price point and $299 a month leases.

Yeah right, had someone speculated before the show BMW would bring the 320i to the NA market, most people here would have laughed at him, now everyone thinks it's a no brainer.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 14, 2013, 4:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Yeah right, had someone speculated before the show BMW would bring the 320i to the NA market, most people here would have laughed at him, now everyone thinks it's a no brainer.

Not sure what there is to laugh at.

The global car business is coming more and more to the NA market.

Remember when there would be various Ford's, various tuning-we had a crappy Focus compared to the Euro Focus, now one iteration. Now small engines, even diesels and 3 cylinder engines, more small hatchbacks, all here now in North America.

BMW is and will be doing the same thing. More small cars, more engine downsizing, more diesels.

I think it's great. I hated being in Europe and fawning for cars we would never see. Now the problem is all those Euro cars had manuals and we are getting less and less.

dtc100 commented: January 14, 2013, 7:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Not sure what there is to laugh at.

The global car business is coming more and more to the NA market.

Remember when there would be various Ford's, various tuning-we had a crappy Focus compared to the Euro Focus, now one iteration. Now small engines, even diesels and 3 cylinder engines, more small hatchbacks, all here now in North America.

BMW is and will be doing the same thing. More small cars, more engine downsizing, more diesels.

I think it's great. I hated being in Europe and fawning for cars we would never see. Now the problem is all those Euro cars had manuals and we are getting less and less.

BMW's answer was 1 series, they finally realized people in the US till want big sizes, just sell them for less. A three cylinder F30 for another $3,000 less would be even better.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 14, 2013, 7:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

BMW's answer was 1 series, they finally realized people in the US till want big sizes, just sell them for less. A three cylinder F30 for another $3,000 less would be even better.

They have other options globally before reaching for the 3cylinder which is earmarked for smaller cars. They have the 318 and 316 still.