Captiv8 wrote: Don't make music unless it's worth listening to should be the standard.

My sarcasm was lost in the internet's translation. But you're the one who said that "someone" will listen to wack albums if they're free. Not YOU though. And not me either. And not anyone who values their time. But that's the same reason I don't believe albums should be free. If you listen to dope albums for free, then maybe you should be required to listen to wack albums. That would be some backhanded fair trade.

And, yes, I know that all music is essentially "free" due to downloads and pirate sites. That doesn't affect my belief that the time, energy, effort, talent should be supported in a way that helps pay bills and whatever else they want to pay for. Fair trade shit. It's not the way though. Never will be from here on out.

Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:29 am

T-Wrexp00ny tang

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 6410
Location: Detroit, Michigan

Asher Roth just released a free album.

Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:44 am

NeuroA champion of Kurtis SP

Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7852

this subtopic we are on now began with cap having 2 different ratings for killer mike and el-p's new "free" album, one being based on it being free the other based on if he were to pay for it,

you can tell they put work into this lil project with a big bang, i dont think it being free or not should alter how you review its quality

Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:49 am

NeuroA champion of Kurtis SP

Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7852

sadistik is/or was just giving his album away too along with having it being able to be purchsed

should the album be judged on both of those acquiring situations?????

No.

many artists do this

sage did

bdolan did too

does it make those albums/projects less quality????

No.

Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:56 am

Captiv8

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8546
Location: Third Coast

It's not a difference of good or bad. It's a matter of degrees. A good free album is better than a good paid-for album. That's all I was really trying to say.

We can debate the pros and cons of free releases forever, but I'm not interested in that. I just think that what one pays for something, up to and including nothing, affects how you determine its quality. Like Noah23's grandpa said, stolen watermelon tastes sweeter.

Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:15 pm

b. dolanFBI agent

Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 5705

T-Wrex wrote: Asher Roth just released a free album.

...And a badger just queefed in the forest.

Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:51 pm

Prontoid

Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 1610
Location: Melbourne, Australia

If an album costs 20 dollars and its a six out of ten, then it drops its price to 10 dollars and its an eight of ten, then you download it for free and it's a 9 out of 10.. If you don't even have to bother downloading it and someone brings it around to your house then they do some household chores ontop of that maybe it's a ten out of ten or even higher??? Arghh my head hurts...

Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:48 am

Mark in Minnesota

Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2053
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN

I think Captiv8's grading system is totally uncontroversial.

When I score how much I like an album, I ask a series of yes/no questions and assign point values to the outcome:
- (2) Do I like it overall?
- (1) Do I like the singles?
- (1) Do I like the deep cuts?
- (1) Should I pay (or have paid) the asking price to obtain a copy?
- (1) Do I think I will listen to it often?
- (1) Do I think I'll still be listening to it in 5-plus years?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like it overall?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like the singles?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like the deep cuts?
- (0.5) Do I think others should pay the asking price to obtain a copy?
- (0.5) Do I think others will listen to it often?
- (0.5) Do I think others will still be listening to it in 5-plus years?

In this system I hold music released gratis to a lower critical standard than music released for some retail-typical price point, because I automatically give a +1.5 out of 10 to anything released for free.

Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:09 am

Mark in Minnesota

Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2053
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN

I think Captiv8's grading system is extremely controversial.

When I score how much I like an album, I ask a series of yes/no questions and assign point values to the outcome:
- (2) Do I like it overall?
- (1) Do I like the singles?
- (1) Do I like the deep cuts?
- (1) Do I like the packaging, liner notes, etc.?
- (1) Do I think I will listen to it often?
- (1) Do I think I'll still be listening to it in 5-plus years?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like it overall?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like the singles?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like the deep cuts?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like the packaging, liner notes, etc.?
- (0.5) Do I think others will listen to it often?
- (0.5) Do I think others will still be listening to it in 5-plus years?

My scoring system is useful because it tells me what to do with a given piece of music:
9-10: pay money for it if possible.
7-9: get for free if possible, pay money for select tracks if necessary.
5-7: get for free if possible, steal if necessary.
3-5: obtain select tracks only.
1-3: obtain select tracks only if available at no cost to you.
0-1: not worth the storage.

Captiv8 is actually assigning score based on the price point, which you can clearly see leads to nothing but chaos.

Last edited by Mark in Minnesota on Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total

Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:10 am

Mark in Minnesota

Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2053
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN

I think Captiv8's grading system is worthless.

I have a finite amount of storage for music and use the numbers as a way of stack ranking new music potentially entering the library versus existing music in the library: a 7 out of 10 just indicates relative position in the stack, and a new golden age of music starting next summer might retroactively lower that 7 to a 5.

Since I don't know what else is in Captiv8's collection and what scores he assigned to the other items in it, I have no way of determining how similar his weighting is to mine or even where Run the Jewels fits in his overall collection. For all I know he gave it a 9 out of 10 because he only owns 20 albums and 18 of them are badly-scratched Raffi CDs. He could be saying it's the worst thing he's ever heard but at least he can get a new copy for free when his hard drive crashes.

*EDIT*
Thinking more generally about this topic, I guess I feel like assigning quantitative values to make an assessment of qualitative merit is a fairly suspect exercise to begin with.

When we don't show how we arrived at the score, we're giving a measurement without specifying the units. This isn't just unscientific, it's literally meaningless, like saying I am 2048 tall or 0.2 thirsty or that my hair is 4 brown.

Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:11 am

Captiv8

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8546
Location: Third Coast

I feel like you just hugged me with an iron maiden.

I grade albums based on a number of criteria. Music, lyrics, voice, production quality, cohesiveness, creativity, whether or not there are throwaway tracks/skits/filler, and how frequently I want to listen. I also compare the album to previous work, if applicable. I also have an intangible category, something like an instinctual feeling of where the record will factor into my listening in the next few years.

Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:12 am

NeuroA champion of Kurtis SP

Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7852

way too much going on now

entertaining nonetheless

Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:39 am

T-Wrexp00ny tang

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 6410
Location: Detroit, Michigan

Mark in Minnesota wrote: Captiv8 is actually assigning score based on the price point, which you can clearly see leads to nothing but chaos.

Ever since Nixon closed the gold window, music hasn't been the same.

Do you think any little Bangladeshi girls think it's worth working 100+ hours for that new Justin Bieber CD?

Mark in Minnesota wrote: I think Captiv8's grading system is extremely controversial.

When I score how much I like an album, I ask a series of yes/no questions and assign point values to the outcome:
- (2) Do I like it overall?
- (1) Do I like the singles?
- (1) Do I like the deep cuts?
- (1) Do I like the packaging, liner notes, etc.?
- (1) Do I think I will listen to it often?
- (1) Do I think I'll still be listening to it in 5-plus years?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like it overall?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like the singles?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like the deep cuts?
- (0.5) Do I think others would like the packaging, liner notes, etc.?
- (0.5) Do I think others will listen to it often?
- (0.5) Do I think others will still be listening to it in 5-plus years?

My scoring system is useful because it tells me what to do with a given piece of music:
9-10: pay money for it if possible.
7-9: get for free if possible, pay money for select tracks if necessary.
5-7: get for free if possible, steal if necessary.
3-5: obtain select tracks only.
1-3: obtain select tracks only if available at no cost to you.
0-1: not worth the storage.

Captiv8 is actually assigning score based on the price point, which you can clearly see leads to nothing but chaos.