Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:35 pm Post subject: George W Bush and the Real State of the Union

I'll address that which is directed at me.

To me it's simple. We already have channels set up for legal immigration. If the system were updated and streamlined using the abundance of technology avalible we already have ways of admitting and tracking those who wish to come here to work. I agree many come here looking for opportunity and a better life. We already have laws that allow them to do that. They need to apply and become American citizens as they should. Then all that America offers will be here for them. But there is no reason to allow those who are here illegally to be rewarded. If I break the law and am caught I am punished. They are breaking the law. For every illegal who comes here and gets caught the set back the time it takes to process someone who is going through the legal channels to become an American.

As for them choosing the "coyotes" to bring them here now. Thats illegal as well but it is also their choice. They are as aware if not more so than we the chances of a coyote leaving them in the middle of the desert or locked in trasport box is a high possability. That is the chance they take when they make the choice to break the law. Just like a drug trafficer knows there is a high possability they will be shot doing business with the kind of people they do business with.

The immigration laws in place need to be enforced. Period. For the safety of our country, for economic reasons and even the safety of those who are breaking the law. Calling an "illegal immegrant" law abiding is an oxymoron.

Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:45 pm Post subject: George W Bush and the Real State of the Union

8 million illegals in the US. Where is the money going to come from and what technology will be employed to seal our borders? We can find and deport illegals as we get them, but 8 million is a pretty big number. Let's take this a step further. The dems would like to see illegal immigrants put on the fast track for citizenship, which I definitely don't agree with AT ALL. It is pretty obvious why they favor this. It is a continuing effort to define people along race and class lines. Puts them into nice voting blocs. I agree that would be the best possible option, but it won't happen for a number of reasons.

To the person who said before that the "$200-$600" would not be spent, I can only point out that not only is that figure off when you consider the information that I already supplied, but the economy is proving that to be false. I would also ask if that money would be better off given to the government in order to support more wasteful government projects. Finally, so what if "Dick Cheney" gets a break on his taxes? I find it interesting that Dick Cheney is used as an example, apply the same to Noam Chomsky or Al Franken. Both Idealogues I don't agree with, but I believe they deserve everything that they earned. Remember that Al Gore brokered the sale of a piece of government oil land to an oil company he just happened to own a bunch of stock in himself making a bundle in the process. This oil land increased our dependence on foreign sources of oil, so I don't want to hear any BS about Cheney and oil. He earned his money, pays more than 99% of the people of the country in taxes and consumes nearly none of the services provided.

I can only wonder why people that support the redistribution of wealth and socialist agendas are so full of vitriol. Sucking at the government nipple sounds like a pretty bleak proposition to me. America is built on the principle that people can achieve the American dream, it is not meant for people to be punished for their hard work. Everyone that I know that has achieved some level of wealth worked their asses off to get it, including me. I grew up okay, but put myself through school, worked since I was 13 years old, and brought myself up to where I am today. No one gave me anything, and I am currently in that top 5% paying more than 50% of all income taxes collected. I have earned every dime I have made through hard work, and me and my family deserve to reap the benefits of that hard work. It seems to me that many "socialists" are insecure and lazy. I guarantee that if you worked for years to accumulate your own bit of wealth, you would be a bit more concerned about how your money is being used. I believe that welfare is a legitimate and worthy program, but not in its current form. We have created an entitlement system that doesn't bring people up, but keeps them down with little hope.

I for one, want the hope to know that I can achieve my dreams if I work hard and reach goals which I have set. I wouldn't want to feel that I shouldn't even bother because their is a "ceiling" that has been created for me by the government. With that ceiling, comes the ultimate loss of freedom.

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 12:30 am Post subject: George W Bush and the Real State of the Union

Jeez JGUNS thats a perfect example of what I mean by the polerization of America. Blanket assumptions about people based on their party affiliation. I was a registered dem up until 6 years ago when I went independant. Not only do I not want to make them all legal, but none of the dems I know want that.

As for where the money will come from, that seems an odd question when we can find 1.5 billion for marriage consuling paid for by the fed government. Another 500 billoin over 10 years for a medicare duge benefit that both dems and rep now agree won't work. The money is already there if our government would start spending it the hard relevent programs rather than moral pet programs like defining what marriages should be morally recognized and supporting law inforcement in tracking down anyone who has bought an almanac in the last 2 years, and maby cutting back on those big biz kickbacks.

The money is there. If we can cut medical benifits to our vet we can find the money to secure our boarders. If we can't then it is definately time for a change in how this country is run.

I do agree with your assesment on welfare and a lot of people who believe it is owed them. I also believe in the old fashion work ethic and one should be able to reap the benefits of their own labor. I grew up dirt poor but have crawled and worked my way to middle class. However there are situations (more than I was aware) where not matter how hard a person works that are crushed under the weight of bed partners of big business and government. I found myself in that boat at an age I didn't think it was possible. I believed in my HMO and when they crapped on me I believed in my government. Even though I worked my ass off earned everything I got, paid my taxes, went on to get a higher education (paid for by me, not my parents the government or student loans) and I remained employed, when my health failed my government crapped on me. This happens more often than I thought until I was forced to wait hours in hospitials and hear the stories of other "middle class" Americans who found themselves bankrupt due to serious illness. Often times of the "bread winner" of the household. Only to find they were not "poor" enough at the illnesses beginning to qualify for any help. And other hospitals deemed you not rich enough to pay up front.

So I agree the system is broken. It's not working as is. It still rewards "wrong" behavior. I was told unless my illness would end in blindness or death I couldn't even get the social security I paid into. Couldn't get medical because I didn't have kids as a teen, I didn't have a drinking or drug problem and I had not attempted suicide. A nurse actually told me to fake a suicide attempt and I'd get help. It was also quietly suggested by another person in the medical field that I commit a crim as the state would them be responsible for helping me. These were actual reasons given to me by government employees. Is that what our country has come to?! So did I feel a sense of entitlement? Damn straight I did. These were programes I paid into for years under the mistaken belief that should I ever need them they would be there for me.

So all I gotta say is I hope your trust in your medical insurance is well placed and even more I hope you never suffer a setback that something a simple as "hard work" can't get you out of. All those people on welfare or recieving governement aid are not lazy. Some just got lucky. And some DID have it coming.

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 12:46 am Post subject: George W Bush and the Real State of the Union

Here's another annoyance. Bush plans to veto a bill that would curb the power of the Patriot act, and yet he fully supports bringing in illegals to work jobs in this country. Forget about the "they do jobs Americans won't do" argument. This idea does nothing to improve "Homeland Security." And it's been proven that many illegals will also be taking those mid level jobs as well. Because they will still accept less pay than someone of middle class would here.

Not to mention all the mid level jobs companies are moving out of the country with no reprecussions. Everything from their call centers to manufacturing and help centers. These are some of the backbone jobs of America.

I'd also like to point out that for this fiscal year the estimated national deficit according to The Press Enterprise is at 500 billion. That will have to be paid off by someone. I don't have kids so it hardly effect me. But Anyone with kids should let them know thats the amount they will be responsable for paying off at some future point. Assuming it doesn't continue to grow.

No new taxes sounds so appealing because it's immidiate. We are an instant pudding kinda nation. But you can't keep spending money you don't have. And you can't forever spend more than you have coming in. Sacrifices have to be made somewhere along the way.

I think one of the best things we could do is make it more expencive for companies to move their manufactuing over seas. Raise tariffs and import taxes if they want to ship their products back to America. Give significant tax breaks to companies that keep those mid level jobs here and employ American workers. Doing those 2 things would help a lot, if only helping to employ the so many who are out of work now.

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:59 pm Post subject: George W Bush and the Real State of the Union

quote:I gotta say the one thing I have become seriously sick of seeing in the last 2 years is all this Rep vs Dem bullcrap. Both parties have their good points and bad. Both are corrupt, no party is perfect. But it right down sick to see these factions split us into opposing groups. I mean isn't anyone else sick of hearing the tired Dem= libral treehugging pansy anti american wuss
and the ever so wonderful
republican= warmongering elitist jack booted nazi powerfreaks

Like I've said before,not everyone on the left likes the Dems either, and often think they're just as bad as Reps.

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:06 pm Post subject: George W Bush and the Real State of the Union

quote:The dems are moving us closer to socialism and communism then we ever were before, and it is true as one pointed out, that it doesn't work. Republicans are also sliding to the left as well. They are closer to the old democratic positions of the late 60's. The country was built on principles of capitalism and individualism, these principles are being systematically eliminated as we move towards a globalized government.

Laughable. Dems are "Republican lite". If we had true socialists in powers things would be way different.

quote:Politicians serious about preventing another Sept. 11 should listen to the leader of Hizballah, and then read an indictment unsealed this month in Detroit.

"Let the entire world hear me," said Sheik Hassan Nasrallah on Sept. 27, 2002. "Our hostility to the Great Satan is absolute."

There's good reason to take this sheik seriously. In 1983, his Iranian-backed Lebanese terrorist group attacked the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, killing 241 Americans. According to the opinion of U.S. District Judge Royce C. Lamberth in the case of Peterson v. the Islamic Republic of Iran, Nasrallah attended the meeting in Baalbek, Lebanon, where the 1983 attack was planned. Until Sept. 11, it remained the deadliest terrorist strike ever against the United States.

The sheik's Sept. 27, 2002, rally in Beirut celebrated the Palestinian intifadah. It was broadcast live on Lebanese TV and monitored by the BBC.

"Regardless of how the world has changed after 11 September," Nasrallah said that day, "Death to America will remain our reverberating and powerful slogan: Death to America!"

Six months later, according to the BBC, Nasrallah warned Americans that if the U.S. invaded Iraq, "The region's people will receive you with rifles, blood, arms, martyrdom and martyrdom operations."

In a statement submitted last week in federal court, Assistant U.S. Attorney Kenneth Chadwell revealed words the FBI found on audiotapes there: "You alone are the sun of my lands, Nasrallah! Nasrallah!/. . . your voice is nothing less than my jihad."

"We offer to you Hizballah, a pledge of loyalty," said a tape. ". . . Rise for Jihad! . . . I offer you, Hizballah, my blood in my hand."

Kourani pleaded guilty to harboring an illegal alien. A judge sentenced him to six months. On Jan. 15, a second indictment was unsealed, charging Kourani with conspiracy to provide material support to Hizballah.

"Kourani was a member, fighter, recruiter and fundraiser for Hizballah," said the indictment. "Operating at first from Lebanon and later in the United States, Kourani was a dedicated member of Hizballah who received specialized training in radical Shiite fundamentalism, weaponry, spy craft, and counterintelligence in Lebanon and Iran."

"Kourani," Chadwell added in his statement, "is charged with conspiring with individuals at the highest levels of the terrorist organization, including one of his brothers who is the Hizballah chief of military security for southern Lebanon."

Kourani got to America, the prosecutors allege, with the help of a Mexican official.

"On approximately Feb. 4, 2001, Kourani surreptitiously entered the United States by sneaking across the U.S./Mexico border in the trunk of a car," wrote Chadwell. "He reached Mexico by paying $3,000 used to bribe an official in the Mexican Consulate in Beirut, Lebanon, to give him a Mexican visa."

Do prosecutors believe that official was Imelda Ortiz Abdala, the one-time Mexican consul in Beirut who was arrested by Mexico in November, according to the Associated Press, "on charges of helping a smuggling ring move Arab migrants into the United States from Mexico"? "They are not sure if that is the person that received the money," said Sandy Palazzolo, a spokeswoman for U.S. Attorney Jeffrey G. Collins of Detroit. "They have information that she worked there during this time frame, but they don't know if that is in fact the person that he did bribe."

In a sentencing memorandum in Kourani's alien-harboring case, Chadwell told the court Kourani's "offense of conviction was part of a continuing scheme to bring illegal aliens to the United States from Lebanon through Mexico."

Kourani has pleaded not guilty to providing material support to Hizballah. I asked his attorney, Nabih Ayad, about the claim in the indictment that Kourani was a member, fighter, recruiter and fundraiser for Hizballah. "He denies all that," said Ayad. Kourani also contests the government's assertion that he bought a Mexican visa for $3,000 in Beirut. "My client told me specifically," said Ayad, "that he got it legitimately through the Mexican consulate."

Why did Kourani come to America? "I think why millions of Americans, the immigrants, come to the United States," said Ayad. "Basically, to make some money. . . . According to his statements to the FBI agents, he was here to make some money to go back with $10,000 for his wife and children."

Whatever the eventual outcome in this case, simple prudence demands that a question be asked of our political leaders: If they don't secure our borders against illegal immigration, how can they secure our country against Hizballah?

And Hizballah, as Sheik Nasrallah says, seeks "Death to America!"

I have no problem with preventing terrorism. One easy way to do that is to stop pissing off other countries with our lousy foreign policy. Another way would be to pull out of all the nations we currently occupy and start defending our borders(which is what most armies in the world do).

I also have no problem with preventing illegal immigration. I say legalize all the current illegals and then shut the door. It won't happen though since Dubbya LOVES cheap labor. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: George W Bush and the Real State of the Union

quote:I can only wonder why people that support the redistribution of wealth and socialist agendas are so full of vitriol.

Because working and poor people are getting screwed big time.

quote:Sucking at the government nipple sounds like a pretty bleak proposition to me. America is built on the principle that people can achieve the American dream, it is not meant for people to be punished for their hard work.

The working class and the poor are working harder than everyone,and they've been punished in so many ways,I can't beging to count. Yeah,CEO's work hard,they work hard is screwing their employees. All they do is plant trees and watch them grow.

quote:It seems to me that many "socialists" are insecure and lazy.

Another laughable comment. How much work does it take to play the stock market,inherit old money,or to have someone run a business for you? The working class and the poor are the ones who make the world function.

quote:I guarantee that if you worked for years to accumulate your own bit of wealth, you would be a bit more concerned about how your money is being used.

Most people in this country will never be rich and will never have to worry about that. Instead of worrying how their money is being used,they're more concerned with how they're going to make their rent/mortgage or feed their kids.

quote:I believe that welfare is a legitimate and worthy program, but not in its current form. We have created an entitlement system that doesn't bring people up, but keeps them down with little hope.

I agree. Welfare is currently flawed. However,it's the gov't that makes it hard for people to get off of it.

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:36 pm Post subject: George W Bush and the Real State of the Union

iwarrior, where do you get such a bleak view of American life? Just looking at some of your comments, I don't understand why you'd bother getting out of bed in the morning if you really believe these things.

Most people may never be "rich", but if a person works their whole life and doesn't manage to save up a little bit of money, they have done something seriously wrong. I understand that this happens to people, but except in tragic situations, it's nobodys fault but theirs.

Do you really think everyone who has money inherited it or made it in the stock market? Believe it or not, there are people who work damn hard to get what they have, and they deserve every penny of it. This is the premise of our nation: hard work = success.

The working class and the poor alone do not make the world function. Imagine your old high school, and what it would be like if the janitor and principal switched places. How well would that work? Take the average factory worker and promote him to CEO, and see how well the company does. The world need all kinds of people, both the working class and the wealthy people pulling the strings. Where I work, people are constantly complaining about the management, but these people could never do better b/c they are either too lazy or too stupid or a combination of both. They THINK they could do better, but the fact that they can't string a logical sentence together or, better yet, arrive at work on time on a consistant basis makes me think otherwise.

I don't care if I sound elitist, a janitor is a janitor for a reason. There is nothing wrong with being a janitor, but what you are saying is that a janitor should get the same slice of the pie as the guy with the Harvard MBA who runs the company. No way. I would not want to live in a country where things worked that way. If that is what you really think, why bother trying at all in life?

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:41 pm Post subject: George W Bush and the Real State of the Union

JGUNS, you're right on. I'll add one thing about Federal Income Taxes. There was more IT revenue collected in the early 80's after Reagan's tax cuts, because taxpayers were more willing to pay their "fair share" when it was actually made fair (remember the top tax rate of 70%?). There was less looking for every possible loophole.