You're right about her position, but The Three Commentears has a different take. In their commentary for the film, they mention that Disney's version was their introduction to Pocahontas (at least for the two of them). Which was actually the case for me, however. I remember seeing a teaser for the movie in January 1995 (on The Aristocats VHS), without knowing anything about her ethnicity. When I learned that she was a Native American, my thought was that she didn't look like the stereotype of one (since Native Americans can look like different ethnicities) and due to the progressions of depicting non-White, exotic regions with Aladdin and The Lion King, Pocahontas felt regressive, since Disney had explored the Native American community before in what has now become a predominant White environment (*cough, Peter Pan, cough*). But to be fair, Pocahontas is about non-Caucasian people after all, so it passes for it. And please don't hate me for my non-politically correct comment, I'm just summarizing what my thoughts were at a child (because I do feel genuniely sorry for the stereotypical portrayals of Native Americans in Hollywood). I can link you that teaser, if you want to; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO9dPoXYWNc

Really? I didn't know about the latter. I guess that (stereotypically) Mulan would have a representation that was suitable (no pun intended), due to being at her own region. But you summarize what has been something that I've analyzed with Mulan lately, that her movie is essentially an adaptation about a story that is not known for a non-Universal audience.

I haven't seen Brave in years either, but regardless of it's problems, I did like it, overall. So I guess it's somewhat of a guilty pleasure

Thanks . But regardless of my previous rants, people do still compare the characters of Pocahontas and Mulan, mostly stereotypically, due to them being non-Caucasian leads. And that's what several critics have rambled about, too.

True, but we have discussed that before. Yet Pocahontas got criticized for the racial stereotypes, more than Hunchback. Besides, Pocahontas has a fair amount of even share of characters that are either Natives or English, whereas in Hunchback most of the characters are white Parisians (with the exception of Esmeralda and Clopin, of course). In fact, Hunchback was too politically correct to portray the gypsies as a persecuted people.

Not quite. Both The Aristocats and The Great Mouse Detective were given specific dates of the years their stories takes places on. The funny thing is that both were released on VHS for the first time in Norway in 1995, so Pocahontas being released theatrically that year followed their synergy . Later on Atlantis would duplicate to cite the year it takes place in. Yet Hunchback's year is never confirmed in the movie.

Yeah, I felt Mulan's part in her sequel was prototypical, but still something that suited her, due to her nature was to somewhat defy her traditions and norms in her first movie, no matter how you put it. And yes, I know Chinese audiences criticized the film and character for being too westernized and perhaps she was that to them. But for a non-Asian, I thought there was plenty of Chinese and Asian flavor in the film. Heck, I felt there was more dedication to steep the film in an Asian culture than Disney done for Europeans cultures (though let's not forget that the creators of Moana wanted to steep their film in Polynesian culture, following the mantra of having their culture swallow the American one).

I know that New Orleans was chosen because of Lasseter. And it's a pity that Disney never managed to fulfill to make their own animated version of Aida. Had it been released at the prime of hand drawn animation, it would've been an intriguing project.

True. I don't hate her royal title with a burning passion, I just find it contrived. But I still remember that the complaints about Tiana's progression and royal weren't that huge. At least from IMDb users, since I used to follow IMDb more at the time. Of course I know about the rants about her not being black enough, but the complaints about the controversy that Tiana represents haven't been as huge, in my opinion. Anika Noni Rose has even talked about it in one of the interviews she did on The View; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apBGGp6vIeM. It's a pity that Sade won't be a hand drawn property.

True, but a secondary character can be fleshed out as well.

Perhaps, but they're obligated to do so, considering that we live in a politically correct, Internet-scrutinizing era. And due to all the havoc Aladdin originally got , it will get more

I know about the complaints about Jasmine's regressive nature, but she was still praised for being independent in her own right. But remember that Ariel was praised of her independence, too.

No, they're translated in Norwegian. In a proper way, though.

Big and big. I do have my nostalgic bias for it, though. And no offense, but I've already replied about Miranda's exclusion; It was a pity, though I didn't utterly despise her exclusion either.

I liked that pairing, due to them being my favorite characters in the show. But I disliked Jackson's overall treatment of Oliver.

To be fair, Miley Cyrus was never downright spiteful and mean towards the rest of the world as the character of Miley Steward. She did a couple of scandals, but were overall not a particularly hostile person. Though I remember that she used to rant (more than any other Hollywood celebrity that I've seen) about haters more than once in her prime (and don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting haters, I'm just citing this objectively). Apparently in 2013 she changed her attitude completely and said that haters kept her motivated. And yes, 2013 was the year where she truly gave controversy a new and overt vision.

It was around that time where I got acquainted to Taylor Swift. Her song was fine, though and it was back then where her music was mostly country influenced. Back at the time, I used to like Taylor, more than now, though her music is still fine, though.

The Climb was not an end credit song, it was a perfomance in the actual movie. But I personally think it should've been an end credit-song, since it didn't fit the movie and just kept slowing it down (in fact, it would've been more reasonant in a more serious and harrowing plot than something as lite as Hannah Montana). It was a hit song back then, but I've always found the melody to be utterly dreadful. Btw, do you like that song?

True, but the Internet was like that a decade ago. I'm glad that I've outgrown the phase of being completely shocked by users hostility and mob mentality. And frankly, the Hannah trolls were my first real exposure to the hostility of IMDb trolls.

No, Macy was the brunette and was played by Nicole Anderson. The blonde girl was played by Chelsea Staub Kane. She was likable. Lately I saw her in the sitcom Baby Daddy. Tiffany Thorton was a fine actress and managed to play a snooty bitch, regardless of her likable nature. Meaghan Martin was suitable to her role.

More specifically, there is an American Congresswoman, Elizabeth Warren who has some Native American ancestry so Trump denigrates her by calling her Pocahontas. Interestingly enough, the real life Pocahontas has a rich descendant who is a Trump supporter.

I'm not sure what country the Three Commentears are from, but I know you are not from the U.S. so maybe that is why your introduction to Pocahontas was from the Disney film. It might also be a matter of age since you've told me that you're older than me. Having gone to elementary/primary school in the 2000s, I can attest to the fact that in American schools, most children learn a little about Pocahontas. Honestly, the Disney film is the reason most people continue to remember her though since by high school, since in high school, most people thought that she and John Smith were a couple. Which to be fair, isn't a myth that the Disney film created but it certainly cemented it into the public consciousness.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint about Pocahontas when you were a child and first saw the teaser. And thanks for posting the teaser as well! I hadn't seen that one before. It's funny that as a child, you felt Pocahontas was regressive because Native Americans had technically already been featured in a Disney film before (Peter Pan) even though they were just supporting characters. I imagine that you would have felt even more strongly if Disney had done the Hiawatha movie that had been planned way back in the 1940s. The bonus feature talking about that movie is included in the Pocahontas Blu-Ray btw, although I'm sure you can find the video on YouTube.

Hunchback characters are barely present in the American parks. They used to be more prominent in Paris (for obvious reasons), but I don't think they have much presence there anymore either. I know in Tokyo they have an Easter parade which features Esmeralda and Clopin but I don't know if they are part of it every year or if it was just done for one year. Luckily, I think in the American parks, Esmeralda at least is slowly gaining a reintroduction. Probably won't amount to anything, but in Disneyland's Fantastmic, she was featured in the finale on the riverboat with all the other characters. I was really surprised to see her! Afterwards, I checked and found out that normally Tiana is in that spot but for whatever reason, Esmeralda had taken her place that night as I think substitutions like these are normal every so often. It was nice to see Esmeralda get what is essentially A-Lister status with the rest of the Disney characters. Speaking of Fantasmic, the Tokyo one has a really interesting lineup. Rather than one ship, they have three, and they most prominently include the princesses with their princes. Clarice and Marie are heavily included as well over more popular characters which just goes to show how huge they both are in Japan.

I like the score and songs for Brave a lot as well as the visuals. The story and overall characterizations are the weak point for me, and the humor wasn't to my taste.

Another reason Mulan and Pocahontas get compared so often is because they are practically invisible in the DP franchise lol.

Quasi also counts as a Romani character in Hunchback alongside Esmeralda and Clopin. I don't quite understand what you mean though that Disney's Hunchback was too politically correct to show the gypsies as a persecuted people. I think the movie makes very clear that they are persecuted for their race and lifestyle through the demonization of Frollo and the finale brings all the Parisians, gypsies and nongypsies, together to end his reign over the city. Hence, why Clopin and the rest of the gypsies locked in the cage are freed to help fight the guards.

I'm not surprised I forgot to mention that The Aristocats and The Great Mouse Detective both have specific years they are set in, since they are both Dark Age films lol. Interesting pattern that both were introduced in Norway the same year that Pocahontas came out. Disney's more "modern" films tend to be better about specific years. Atlantis and TPATF also get dates since they are set in the early 1900s, much like the two films mentioned above which are from a similar era. I think Mary Poppins gets a specific date too. Hunchback's year is never mentioned in the film, but the Art book does mention it.

Mulan had a tendency to defy norms, but I'm not sure even she would try to outright break up the marriages of the emperor's three daughters in the first film. You bring up an interesting point when you say that as a non-Asian, you got plenty of Chinese flavor in the film. I'd argue that half the problem stems from this, because Disney just took anything even remotely Chinese and flung it into the film. I've read some interesting stuff from native Chinese viewers who wrote about how warped the history is in Disney's Mulan, and how they get lots of elements wrong such as how the culture or geography differs in the North versus the South. I imagine that the live-action film will be a lot more accurate, otherwise the Chinese market will be otherwise indifferent to it. Moana actually involved a trust group of Polynesians who came together and guided or corrected decisions to make the culture in Moana more accurate so I'd say that was more authentic than anything in Mulan which was just like visiting the Chinese section in a local grocery store. Although even Moana get a little bit of flack for merging so many Polynesian and Oceanic cultures together rather than just focusing on one.

A hand-drawn Aida is one of the films that I wish we could have seen most from Disney's scrapped pile of projects. I'd be fine with a live-action version too but I really don't want Beyonce or Christina Aguilera in the roles. I doubt they'd cast the latter in the role of an Egyptian princess in this day and age anyway, but even regardless of race, I'm not a fan of hers. Beyonce too, I find overrated, and she wouldn't be my choice but I imagine Disney would grab her up in a second.

That's funny that the controversy behind Tiana hasn't been that huge since her film was one of the most controversial Disney ones in the past few years. I would have liked a hand-drawn Sade film too. I'm glad it's live-action though over CGI.

It's true that secondary characters can be well done, but we've had this discussion about Nani before on whether or not she was well developed. I think we'll have to agree to disagree since I know you don't find her fleshed out well whereas I think she is one of the film's highlights. But if I remember correctly, you aren't a fan of Lilo & Stitch anyway, whereas it's my favorite 2000s Disney film, so I guess we're both biased lol. Between the two Polynesian films that Disney has done, which do you prefer overall: Moana or Lilo & Stitch? My clear favorite is Lilo & Stitch. I don't think Moana is a bad movie, but I don't find myself loving it either.

It's interesting that you talk about how the live-action Aladdin has to seem more progressive (like how BATB tried in 2017) because all I'm seeing online is complaints about how the new Aladdin is going to be trash for being too politically correct with a "feminist" Jasmine, nevermind that she was always feminist.

Yes, Ariel was praised for her independence but she was criticized a lot back then as well and that criticism has only grown over years. Regardless of what critics say, she is still my favorite and probably always will be.

That's nice to hear that in Norway, the Disney songs are fully translated in a correct way. I know sometimes they can get lazy with the translations and dubbing.

Sorry about repeating my Miranda question. I actually meant to ask you if you knew why Miranda was cut from the film. For some reason, I worded it to ask you the same question I already had. Blame it on exams lol. Also, do you know if the film was meant to serve as a sort of finale for the TV series? If so, I'm surprised they didn't try and do another Hannah Montana film to serve as the finale for that show.

I never really liked Jackson and while I liked Oliver in the beginning, he felt superfluous by the middle of the show. I don't really remember how Jackson treated him but probably it was as bad as Miley and Lily treated him towards the end. The only notable storyline I remember Oliver having in the last few years of the show was his vegetarian or vegan girlfriend.

To be honest, after I lost interest in Hannah Montana, I stopped following Miley so the only time she popped up in my radar was with her bizarre stunts. You're right that I don't think she's had any major feuds with anyone or anything like that.

I'm not a fan of country music so the country girl shtick was boring for me. I prefer her more pop-oriented songs from the last few years. Probably also because in high school, they used to replay her latest albums over and over so I got used to listening to her, unlike with her early works.

What scene was The Climb sung in during the movie? I remember it got a lot of radioplay at the time. I like the song but I don't love it either. It's not my favorite out of her repertoire. To be honest, back in the day, I much preferred her Hannah songs over her Miley songs.

I remember the Nicole Anderson character now. She was in Mean Girls 2 as well which is what I mainly know her from. I honestly don't remember her role in J.O.N.A.S. probably because I never watched the show but I do remember that she was in it now. Sadly, the Disney Channel actresses who weren't Miley, Selena, or Demi from that time period all sort of disappeared. They have some projects here and there but nothing too big.

Hello again and I know that it's been a while since I've replied. But I've been gone on vacations, so therefore I haven't been able to reply.

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I'm not sure what country the Three Commentears are from, but I know you are not from the U.S. so maybe that is why your introduction to Pocahontas was from the Disney film. It might also be a matter of age since you've told me that you're older than me. Having gone to elementary/primary school in the 2000s, I can attest to the fact that in American schools, most children learn a little about Pocahontas. Honestly, the Disney film is the reason most people continue to remember her though since by high school, since in high school, most people thought that she and John Smith were a couple. Which to be fair, isn't a myth that the Disney film created but it certainly cemented it into the public consciousness.

The Three Commentears are American. And despite their aforementioned rant, I've heard that Pocahontas was a subject for most schools prior to Disney's movie. So I guess it was before your generation as well.

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Thanks for sharing your viewpoint about Pocahontas when you were a child and first saw the teaser. And thanks for posting the teaser as well! I hadn't seen that one before. It's funny that as a child, you felt Pocahontas was regressive because Native Americans had technically already been featured in a Disney film before (Peter Pan) even though they were just supporting characters. I imagine that you would have felt even more strongly if Disney had done the Hiawatha movie that had been planned way back in the 1940s. The bonus feature talking about that movie is included in the Pocahontas Blu-Ray btw, although I'm sure you can find the video on YouTube.

You're welcome. I know about Hiawatha, but I know that it was scrapped due to tone problems. However, it would've been interesting to see it, due to how Hiawatha is after all a Disney property (of course I know about the character from the comics). But I've seen the documentary about Hiawatha on the Pocahontas Blu Ray and the outline was pretty grim, even for a Disney movie (his wife dies). Yet I felt the story was a little incongruous.

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Hunchback characters are barely present in the American parks. They used to be more prominent in Paris (for obvious reasons), but I don't think they have much presence there anymore either. I know in Tokyo they have an Easter parade which features Esmeralda and Clopin but I don't know if they are part of it every year or if it was just done for one year. Luckily, I think in the American parks, Esmeralda at least is slowly gaining a reintroduction. Probably won't amount to anything, but in Disneyland's Fantastmic, she was featured in the finale on the riverboat with all the other characters. I was really surprised to see her! Afterwards, I checked and found out that normally Tiana is in that spot but for whatever reason, Esmeralda had taken her place that night as I think substitutions like these are normal every so often. ¨It was nice to see Esmeralda get what is essentially A-Lister status with the rest of the Disney characters.

Really? Nice.

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Speaking of Fantasmic, the Tokyo one has a really interesting lineup. Rather than one ship, they have three, and they most prominently include the princesses with their princes. Clarice and Marie are heavily included as well over more popular characters which just goes to show how huge they both are in Japan.

Who's Clarice and Marie?

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Another reason Mulan and Pocahontas get compared so often is because they are practically invisible in the DP franchise lol.

Yeah.

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Quasi also counts as a Romani character in Hunchback alongside Esmeralda and Clopin.

True, but that has been up for debate. I used to wonder why Quasi was the only ginger gypsy, whereas most of the others had black hair. And now in our scrutinizing era of social medias, it has been debated to death.

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I don't quite understand what you mean though that Disney's Hunchback was too politically correct to show the gypsies as a persecuted people. I think the movie makes very clear that they are persecuted for their race and lifestyle through the demonization of Frollo and the finale brings all the Parisians, gypsies and nongypsies, together to end his reign over the city. Hence, why Clopin and the rest of the gypsies locked in the cage are freed to help fight the guards.

Perhaps politically correct is not a right term, but the movie makes sure to side with the gypsies as being a persecuted race and while their bad traits are shown, it never portraits them as a people who's against the whites (unlike Pocahontas, who actually for better and for worse, showed the tension from both sides).

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Hunchback's year is never mentioned in the film, but the Art book does mention it.

I know, but some other books mentions it as well. I think the comics and the Disney's Art of Animation-book.

Speaking of which, do you have many Art of-books from Disney?

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Mulan had a tendency to defy norms, but I'm not sure even she would try to outright break up the marriages of the emperor's three daughters in the first film. You bring up an interesting point when you say that as a non-Asian, you got plenty of Chinese flavor in the film. I'd argue that half the problem stems from this, because Disney just took anything even remotely Chinese and flung it into the film. I've read some interesting stuff from native Chinese viewers who wrote about how warped the history is in Disney's Mulan, and how they get lots of elements wrong such as how the culture or geography differs in the North versus the South. I imagine that the live-action film will be a lot more accurate, otherwise the Chinese market will be otherwise indifferent to it.

I know the controversy around the accuracy against the historical events of Mulan. Especially since she lived before The Great Wall was finished.

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Moana actually involved a trust group of Polynesians who came together and guided or corrected decisions to make the culture in Moana more accurate so I'd say that was more authentic than anything in Mulan which was just like visiting the Chinese section in a local grocery store. Although even Moana get a little bit of flack for merging so many Polynesian and Oceanic cultures together rather than just focusing on one.

Yeah, I know. Yet I haven't really figured what differentiates certain Polynesian cultures. However, I know there's been some controversy around Moana, but not as huge as other non-Caucasian Disney movies (*cough, Aladdin, cough*).

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A hand-drawn Aida is one of the films that I wish we could have seen most from Disney's scrapped pile of projects. I'd be fine with a live-action version too but I really don't want Beyonce or Christina Aguilera in the roles. I doubt they'd cast the latter in the role of an Egyptian princess in this day and age anyway, but even regardless of race, I'm not a fan of hers. Beyonce too, I find overrated, and she wouldn't be my choice but I imagine Disney would grab her up in a second.

I used to like Christina Aguilera in my late teens, but now I don't care for her. But I can't picture her in one of the roles.

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It's true that secondary characters can be well done, but we've had this discussion about Nani before on whether or not she was well developed. I think we'll have to agree to disagree since I know you don't find her fleshed out well whereas I think she is one of the film's highlights. But if I remember correctly, you aren't a fan of Lilo & Stitch anyway, whereas it's my favorite 2000s Disney film, so I guess we're both biased lol. Between the two Polynesian films that Disney has done, which do you prefer overall: Moana or Lilo & Stitch? My clear favorite is Lilo & Stitch. I don't think Moana is a bad movie, but I don't find myself loving it either.

Yes, Ariel was praised for her independence but she was criticized a lot back then as well and that criticism has only grown over years. Regardless of what critics say, she is still my favorite and probably always will be.

No matter how much criticism Ariel gets, she has her huge, devoted fanbase.

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Sorry about repeating my Miranda question. I actually meant to ask you if you knew why Miranda was cut from the film. For some reason, I worded it to ask you the same question I already had. Blame it on exams lol. Also, do you know if the film was meant to serve as a sort of finale for the TV series?

That's allright. I know that Lalaine was actually shooting another movie, so therefore she was absent. Yet I guess the movie must have been a finale to the series, yet the show still aired after the movie was released.

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If so, I'm surprised they didn't try and do another Hannah Montana film to serve as the finale for that show

Me too. I know there were some rumors about it, but they never went for it.

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I'm not a fan of country music so the country girl shtick was boring for me. I prefer her more pop-oriented songs from the last few years. Probably also because in high school, they used to replay her latest albums over and over so I got used to listening to her, unlike with her early works.

I actually happen to like some bluegrass and some country, but not the sappy ballads.

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What scene was The Climb sung in during the movie? I remember it got a lot of radioplay at the time. I like the song but I don't love it either. It's not my favorite out of her repertoire. To be honest, back in the day, I much preferred her Hannah songs over her Miley songs.

The Climb was played at the end of the movie, being the climatic song that was played when Miley revealed her identity. And just like you, I preferred the Hannah songs over Miley songs. I liked Miley's music at the beginning, but some of her songs can be truly awful at their very worst, which was a reason for straying away from her music when she was at the end of her Hannah-phase.

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I remember the Nicole Anderson character now. She was in Mean Girls 2 as well which is what I mainly know her from. I honestly don't remember her role in J.O.N.A.S. probably because I never watched the show but I do remember that she was in it now. Sadly, the Disney Channel actresses who weren't Miley, Selena, or Demi from that time period all sort of disappeared. They have some projects here and there but nothing too big.

[/quote]True, but that tends to happen with most DC stars. Most of them are has-beens.

Hello again and I know that it's been a while since I've replied. But I've been gone on vacations, so therefore I haven't been able to reply.

The Three Commentears are American. And despite their aforementioned rant, I've heard that Pocahontas was a subject for most schools prior to Disney's movie. So I guess it was before your generation as well.

You're welcome. I know about Hiawatha, but I know that it was scrapped due to tone problems. However, it would've been interesting to see it, due to how Hiawatha is after all a Disney property (of course I know about the character from the comics). But I've seen the documentary about Hiawatha on the Pocahontas Blu Ray and the outline was pretty grim, even for a Disney movie (his wife dies). Yet I felt the story was a little incongruous.

Who's Clarice and Marie?

True, but that has been up for debate. I used to wonder why Quasi was the only ginger gypsy, whereas most of the others had black hair. And now in our scrutinizing era of social medias, it has been debated to death.

Perhaps politically correct is not a right term, but the movie makes sure to side with the gypsies as being a persecuted race and while their bad traits are shown, it never portraits them as a people who's against the whites (unlike Pocahontas, who actually for better and for worse, showed the tension from both sides).

I know, but some other books mentions it as well. I think the comics and the Disney's Art of Animation-book.

Speaking of which, do you have many Art of-books from Disney?

Yeah, I know. Yet I haven't really figured what differentiates certain Polynesian cultures. However, I know there's been some controversy around Moana, but not as huge as other non-Caucasian Disney movies (*cough, Aladdin, cough*).

I used to like Christina Aguilera in my late teens, but now I don't care for her. But I can't picture her in one of the roles.

No matter how much criticism Ariel gets, she has her huge, devoted fanbase.

That's allright. I know that Lalaine was actually shooting another movie, so therefore she was absent. Yet I guess the movie must have been a finale to the series, yet the show still aired after the movie was released.

The Climb was played at the end of the movie, being the climatic song that was played when Miley revealed her identity. And just like you, I preferred the Hannah songs over Miley songs. I liked Miley's music at the beginning, but some of her songs can be truly awful at their very worst, which was a reason for straying away from her music when she was at the end of her Hannah-phase.

True, but that tends to happen with most DC stars. Most of them are has-beens.

Hi. I was on holidays too so I completely understand your absence. I almost didn't notice your latest response because it was buried under so many new posts.

Thanks for confirming that the Three Commentears are American. I think for the most part, Americans are well aware of who Pocahontas is even if they are more familiar with her as John Smith's lover than as John Rolfe's wife.

I liked the concepts for Hiawatha especially the idea that the film would be somewhat similar to Fantasia with an emphasis on visuals over story. Certainly it couldn't be worse representation for Native Americans than Peter Pan was. I wasn't aware though that Hiawatha was a character featured in comic books.

Clarice is the female chipmunk who is Chip and Dale's love interest. She only ever appeared in one short (Two Chips and a Miss) but she's become a breakout character in Tokyo. She's almost as featured there as Mickey, Minnie, Donald, Daisy, Goofy, and Pluto, maybe even more than Chip and Dale themselves who are already pretty prominent. Every major Disney event tends to feature her. Marie is the white kitten from The Aristocats. She's huge there as well.

I never really questioned Quasi's atypical appearance from his Romani background. I always assumed that his lighter skintone and red hair was part of the deformity.

I think the reason that Romani are never portrayed as being against the whites is because their context is so much different from the Native Americans in Pocahontas. In Pocahontas, the English settlers come to the land of the Native Americans and try to take it from them. Thus, both sides can confront each other on equal terms. But in Hunchback, the Romani are a minority race in Europe and they don't really have the means to challenge the upper classes like Minister Frollo.

I didn't know that some comics and Disney's Art of Animation book also confirm the year that Hunchback is set in so thanks for that. I own some Disney art books but not as many as I wish I could. I own the Hunchback art book, specifically the slipcase edition, and the two Snow White ones pictured in this link.https://genevaanderson.files.wordpress. ... -books.jpgI've also got The Disney Villain and the first two volumes of The Hidden Art of Disney books.

There are a few making of/art of books that I still want to get for Beauty and the Beast, Pinocchio, Pocahontas, The Lion King, Tarzan, Cinderella, and maybe the Fantasia films.

Elena of Avalor got similar criticism as Moana for taking different Latin American cultures and blending them together making her as authentic as Taco Bell.

Christina Aguilera was meant to play Amneris in Aida way back when it was considered as a film. I think Disney wouldn't be tonedeaf in this day and age though to cast her as an Egyptian princess.

Ariel is definitely one of the most popular princesses to this day. Only Rapunzel and the Frozen sisters have come to match her since the end of the 90s.

I didn't realize Lalaine had another movie which is why she couldn't be in The Lizzie McGuire Movie. Thanks for confirming!

I didn't remember that The Climb played during the scene where Hannah exposes her true identity as Miley. I guess it really wasn't memorable enough for me lol besides how absurd the idea was.

You're right that outside of the very few huge Disney Channel stars, most of them end up fading into obscurity.

Clarice is the female chipmunk who is Chip and Dale's love interest. She only ever appeared in one short (Two Chips and a Miss) but she's become a breakout character in Tokyo. She's almost as featured there as Mickey, Minnie, Donald, Daisy, Goofy, and Pluto, maybe even more than Chip and Dale themselves who are already pretty prominent. Every major Disney event tends to feature her.

OK, I didn't know. Thanks

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I never really questioned Quasi's atypical appearance from his Romani background. I always assumed that his lighter skintone and red hair was part of the deformity.

Could be.

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I think the reason that Romani are never portrayed as being against the whites is because their context is so much different from the Native Americans in Pocahontas. In Pocahontas, the English settlers come to the land of the Native Americans and try to take it from them. Thus, both sides can confront each other on equal terms. But in Hunchback, the Romani are a minority race in Europe and they don't really have the means to challenge the upper classes like Minister Frollo.

True.

What are your thoughts about finally getting an live action update of Hunchback? I was pretty astonished when it was announced, but I'm still glad, nonetheless. I just hope they'll find a suitable cast. But it's a pity that it won't have songs from the stage versions, since I thought those songs would've made a good fit to the movie.

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I didn't know that some comics and Disney's Art of Animation book also confirm the year that Hunchback is set in so thanks for that.

Oh, I own those books, too. I'm not trying to brag, but I happen to own a lot of Disney books, actually. But of course not every single one.

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Elena of Avalor got similar criticism as Moana for taking different Latin American cultures and blending them together making her as authentic as Taco Bell.

True. Remember that Sofia the First was originally labeled to be the first Latina Princess, which just happened to be a rumor. And then came one to actually fit the bill. I remember there was one that mentioned as this board that Latin American cultures are usually perceived to be a homogenous pot, which is true.

Personally, I thought that Elena looked like a Latina version of Jasmine. Do you agree with that?

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Christina Aguilera was meant to play Amneris in Aida way back when it was considered as a film. I think Disney wouldn't be tonedeaf in this day and age though to cast her as an Egyptian princess.

True, but I wouldn't like to see her as an Egyptian Princess. For PC-reasons, hahaha.

Speaking of which, what are your thoughts about the leaking picture from Frozen 2? I found it to be underwhelming and generic. Even the leaked images from the first movie were better than this picture.

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Ariel is definitely one of the most popular princesses to this day. Only Rapunzel and the Frozen sisters have come to match her since the end of the 90s.

I've read somewhere that Cinderella, Snow White and Belle were among the most popular as well. But you've right, Rapunzel and the Frozen sisters are popular. Rapunzel's popularity is especially evident, but perhaps not as questionable, due to her being an easily marketable Princess (and cough, a Caucasian one, cough).

What are your thoughts about Elsa being in the Princess-franchise, due to her being the lone Queen?

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I didn't realize Lalaine had another movie which is why she couldn't be in The Lizzie McGuire Movie. Thanks for confirming!

You're welcome.

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I didn't remember that The Climb played during the scene where Hannah exposes her true identity as Miley. I guess it really wasn't memorable enough for me lol besides how absurd the idea was.

What's truly absurd is how The Climb is meant to be the culmination of Miley's own self-identity journey and how it's about what she's learned back on her road. And afterwards she's urged to be Hannah, just to please those who won't have their dreams crushed. It made The Climb less resonant that it should've been. It makes the so-called depth of Hannah Montana The Movie cheap and contrived.

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You're right that outside of the very few huge Disney Channel stars, most of them end up fading into obscurity.

True. I thought that Lindsay Lohan was going to be more relevant when she become older, but she wasted it. I thought that Miley was going to fade into obscurity for some reason, but she wasn't (though the buzz regarding her has calmed down now).

Speaking of which, have you noticed that the exposure of the current Disney Channel stars isn't as overwhelming as it used to be?

What are your thoughts about finally getting an live action update of Hunchback? I was pretty astonished when it was announced, but I'm still glad, nonetheless. I just hope they'll find a suitable cast. But it's a pity that it won't have songs from the stage versions, since I thought those songs would've made a good fit to the movie.

Oh, I own those books, too. I'm not trying to brag, but I happen to own a lot of Disney books, actually. But of course not every single one.

True. Remember that Sofia the First was originally labeled to be the first Latina Princess, which just happened to be a rumor. And then came one to actually fit the bill. I remember there was one that mentioned as this board that Latin American cultures are usually perceived to be a homogenous pot, which is true.

Personally, I thought that Elena looked like a Latina version of Jasmine. Do you agree with that?

True, but I wouldn't like to see her (Christina Aguilera) as an Egyptian Princess. For PC-reasons, hahaha.

Speaking of which, what are your thoughts about the leaking picture from Frozen 2? I found it to be underwhelming and generic. Even the leaked images from the first movie were better than this picture.

I've read somewhere that Cinderella, Snow White and Belle were among the most popular as well. But you've right, Rapunzel and the Frozen sisters are popular. Rapunzel's popularity is especially evident, but perhaps not as questionable, due to her being an easily marketable Princess (and cough, a Caucasian one, cough).

What are your thoughts about Elsa being in the Princess-franchise, due to her being the lone Queen?

What's truly absurd is how The Climb is meant to be the culmination of Miley's own self-identity journey and how it's about what she's learned back on her road. And afterwards she's urged to be Hannah, just to please those who won't have their dreams crushed. It made The Climb less resonant that it should've been. It makes the so-called depth of Hannah Montana The Movie cheap and contrived.

True. I thought that Lindsay Lohan was going to be more relevant when she become older, but she wasted it. I thought that Miley was going to fade into obscurity for some reason, but she wasn't (though the buzz regarding her has calmed down now).

Speaking of which, have you noticed that the exposure of the current Disney Channel stars isn't as overwhelming as it used to be?

Hey, it's been a while. I'll stop saying you don't need to apologize because I know you do anyway and I also know that if the roles were reversed, I would be apologizing as well lol. Glad you're back though because I've missed our chats!

Yes, Sleeping Beauty also fits the type of movie that places emphasis on visuals and music over character and story. I'd argue that Pocahontas does something similar in the 90s. That would explain why both films are so polarizing and criticized for flat characters and boring storylines.

I can definitely see the argument that Pocahontas was made to make up for Native American representation. One could even argue that The Princess and the Frog was also made to make up for Song of the South. Ironically enough, both Pocahontas and TPATF got heavy race-based criticism as well for being too politically correct. It's not surprising to me that Disney gets the most flack for being racist when it comes to portraying American minorities than other cultures (China, the Middle East, Polynesia, etc.) The U.S. has a long history of oppression and ill-treatment of minorities and this comes out in films as well.

Oh, when you meant that Hiawatha was a character in comic books, you meant the one from the Silly Symphonies. I'm familiar with that Hiawatha and his short. I know a lot of the Silly Symphonies characters used to appear in comics alongside other classic characters like Donald, Mickey, the dwarfs, etc. I assumed earlier that Disney had created a more adult version of Hiawatha to appear in the comics.

Speaking of Disney shorts, do you have any favorite ones? I feel like they are very underrated these days. Disney doesn't so much with them except for the Three Little Pigs which does get some presence in the Disney Parks.

I'm very excited for a live-action Hunchback. I've been hoping for one since Cinderella and since I saw Notre Dame briefly in the live-action BATB. I'm okay that they aren't including stage songs even though I really like them. I just hope that Disney will include some of the deleted songs mainly Someday and In a Place of Miracles. I'm a huge fan of both and I hope that being in the stage adaptation doesn't mean they'll be cut from the film as well. A Guy Like You needs to remain deleted though.

Lol, you're not bragging by saying that you own a lot of Disney books. I've only recently started to collect them myself since when I was younger, I would just look at them for the pictures. What's your favorite Disney book?

If I remember correctly, Sofia was branded as the first Hispanic princess and there was a lot of controversy because of her Anglicized appearance. Then Disney dismissed that she was ever Hispanic to ease the tensions. Elena seemed to be created to address this issue. Yeah, there have been a lot of posters who have complained about how Elena is just a hodgepodge of all these different Latin American countries blended together. Moana technically is the same case, since she's literally a blend of all these different Polynesian and Oceanic cultures, but she never seems to get the same amount of criticism that Elena of Avalor gets.

Yeah, I always felt that Elena looked like a mix of Jasmine and Esmeralda.

Since I'm not a fan of Christian Aguilera anyway, I have no reason for wanting to see her as Amneris, for PC reasons or otherwise.

I really like Anna's more mature design in the leaked Frozen 2 pic. I love her new hair and the dark magenta colors on her. Elsa is very underwhelming though. All her designs have been the same variation of her original ice dress. Disney seems to be hyper-aware of how popular that look is because they've been too afraid to put Elsa in anything else besides that.

The popularity of the princesses seems to change, especially as new ones come. I just remember that way back when the franchise first started, someone at the Disney Store ranked the princesses in order of how well they sold. 1. Cinderella2. Ariel3. Belle4. Jasmine5. Snow White6. Aurora7. Pocahontas8. Mulan

The only new princesses that have caught on are Rapunzel and the Frozen sisters. They tried with Merida but she didn't catch on after the first year or two after her film. Moana hasn't had the same amount of longevity either since while she isn't completely ignored, she hasn't been super popular either.

I don't have an issue with Elsa being in the princess line because she is a queen (after all Mulan isn't a princess at all), but I think the Frozen sisters are better suited for their own franchise.

I think your analysis of The Climb is excellent! I wish the moviemakers had put that much thought into The Hannah Montana Movie lol.

I have noticed that the current Disney Channel stars really aren't as famous or overexposed as the older ones. Zendaya's the last one who really made it big. Bella Thorne mostly does TV work and same goes for Dove Cameron and Sofia Carson. They're big Disney Channel names but outside of that, the average person wouldn't recognize them. I've also noticed that even Miley, Selena, and Demi really only retained their fame because of their careers as singers. None of them have really focused much on acting since then. Even Ariana Grande, although she's a Nickelodeon star, became uber famous from singing, not her acting.

Yes, Sleeping Beauty also fits the type of movie that places emphasis on visuals and music over character and story. I'd argue that Pocahontas does something similar in the 90s. That would explain why both films are so polarizing and criticized for flat characters and boring storylines.

True, but remember that Pocahontas was made in a different era than Sleeping Beauty, where an audience would be more scrutinizing towards a film that were made for the visuals stake and not so much the story. So for all the flack Pocahontas get for it's story faults, it's not as the visuals were deliberately made to overshadow the story.

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I can definitely see the argument that Pocahontas was made to make up for Native American representation. One could even argue that The Princess and the Frog was also made to make up for Song of the South. Ironically enough, both Pocahontas and TPATF got heavy race-based criticism as well for being too politically correct.

The Princess and the Frog was not as a bih apology for Song of the South to begin with, due to how it has it's shoehorned African-American Princess turning into a frog. Otherwise, I never understood what was so controversial about Song of the South to begin with.

You could say that The Legend of Tarzan inclusion of an African tribe could be perceived as an apology for not having one in the movie.

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It's not surprising to me that Disney gets the most flack for being racist when it comes to portraying American minorities than other cultures (China, the Middle East, Polynesia, etc.) The U.S. has a long history of oppression and ill-treatment of minorities and this comes out in films as well.

True, but I don't think Mulan was as much criticized for it's portrayal of Chinese. Just for being overall Americanized. I remember reading somewhere that it was praised for portraying Chinese eyes realistically, but I haven't found that article, unfortunately. And regarding Polynesians, I know there were a couple of criticism against Moana'sportrayal of them, but I don't think that havoc was as huge.

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Oh, when you meant that Hiawatha was a character in comic books, you meant the one from the Silly Symphonies. I'm familiar with that Hiawatha and his short. I know a lot of the Silly Symphonies characters used to appear in comics alongside other classic characters like Donald, Mickey, the dwarfs, etc. I assumed earlier that Disney had created a more adult version of Hiawatha to appear in the comics..

Yup.

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Speaking of Disney shorts, do you have any favorite ones? I feel like they are very underrated these days. Disney doesn't so much with them except for the Three Little Pigs which does get some presence in the Disney Parks.

Good question. I have of course my nostalgic bias towards many Disney shorts, but I do like Silly Symphonies Flowers and Trees. Otherwise, I do like Donald Duck's Winter Storage, Wet Paint and The Flying Squirrel. I'm sure there are a lot of other ones that I like, but I can't remember them right now.

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Here are two images I found from the Disney Store of Japan. They showcase who the popular characters in Japan are. Strangely, I've noticed that Japan has an aversion to the jungle characters. Even though the Walt-era films are loved, I never see anything Jungle Book or Lion King related there, let alone Tarzan which can't have Disney merchandise anymore.https://store-resources-disneyjp.akamai ... _BADGE.jpghttps://store-resources-disneyjp.akamai ... _7__8_.jpg

Okay, thanks.

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I'm very excited for a live-action Hunchback. I've been hoping for one since Cinderella and since I saw Notre Dame briefly in the live-action BATB. I'm okay that they aren't including stage songs even though I really like them. I just hope that Disney will include some of the deleted songs mainly Someday and In a Place of Miracles. I'm a huge fan of both and I hope that being in the stage adaptation doesn't mean they'll be cut from the film as well. A Guy Like You needs to remain deleted though.

I'm sure Someday will be a part of the movie, due to how it's musically one of the biggest anthems in the film. At least In a Place of Miracles do have a chance of being a part of the movie, due to it being a deleted song. I'm sure the Gargoyles will be disccarded from the live action movie.

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Lol, you're not bragging by saying that you own a lot of Disney books. I've only recently started to collect them myself since when I was younger, I would just look at them for the pictures. What's your favorite Disney book?

Good question. I do like The Art of Hercules, since it was the very first one I bought. And I do like Charles Solomon's of Beauty and the Beast. Otherwise, I do like the one for Pinocchio. I don't know if I've said this before, but I think the current Art of-books happen to follow a similar structure and pattern. They don't come in a variety of shapes and sizes as before, they tend to come in a similar pattern.

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If I remember correctly, Sofia was branded as the first Hispanic princess and there was a lot of controversy because of her Anglicized appearance. Then Disney dismissed that she was ever Hispanic to ease the tensions. Elena seemed to be created to address this issue. Yeah, there have been a lot of posters who have complained about how Elena is just a hodgepodge of all these different Latin American countries blended together. Moana technically is the same case, since she's literally a blend of all these different Polynesian and Oceanic cultures, but she never seems to get the same amount of criticism that Elena of Avalor gets.

Nope, but at least Moana was not meant to represent a specific culture. It's fair to assume that Elena was made to cater the aforementioned theories about Sofia. To be honest, I've never seen one single episode about Elena. I find really their Princess titles to be contrived, since they've never even been a part of the lineup, despite being somewhat promoted with it.

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The popularity of the princesses seems to change, especially as new ones come. I just remember that way back when the franchise first started, someone at the Disney Store ranked the princesses in order of how well they sold. 1. Cinderella2. Ariel3. Belle4. Jasmine5. Snow White6. Aurora7. Pocahontas8. Mulan

Surprised to see that Cinderella is peaking at such popularity. I thought her naysayers were doing the best to detract her from her peak and that she was considered too old-fashioned. But The Art of Cinderella-book actually confirms her popularity. I knew that Belle was popular, though and personally I wouldn't mind if she was even more

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I think your analysis of The Climb is excellent! I wish the moviemakers had put that much thought into The Hannah Montana Movie lol.

Thank you. So do I, it would've made it's existence more forgivable

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I have noticed that the current Disney Channel stars really aren't as famous or overexposed as the older ones. Zendaya's the last one who really made it big. Bella Thorne mostly does TV work and same goes for Dove Cameron and Sofia Carson. They're big Disney Channel names but outside of that, the average person wouldn't recognize them. I've also noticed that even Miley, Selena, and Demi really only retained their fame because of their careers as singers. None of them have really focused much on acting since then. Even Ariana Grande, although she's a Nickelodeon star, became uber famous from singing, not her acting.

Yeah, but neither Miley or Demi were good actresses to begin with. Demi's acting in Sonny with a Chance was cringeworthy and Miley's acting in her synonymous role and in The Last Song were not much to brag about. At least Selena had a little more potential, but I haven't seen her in later roles. So therefore I think it's a perfect fit that all of them are stuck to music, certainly since Demi and Miley were made for it.

Btw, I saw Ralph Breaks the Internet. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. I was expecting to groan and frown of it, due to it's already established faults. I was surprised to see how even more spiteful Ralph was towards Vanellope than vice versa. Otherwise, while I felt that Vanellope's decision was a little shoehorned in, I thought the film handled it nicely. And as for the famous Princess-scene, it was okay enough, but I've had my aforementioned issues with it, so it wasn't as great as it could've been.But overall a good movie, nonetheless. It's a pity that it's upcoming bonus features won't be much to brag about.

True, but remember that Pocahontas was made in a different era than Sleeping Beauty, where an audience would be more scrutinizing towards a film that were made for the visuals stake and not so much the story. So for all the flack Pocahontas get for it's story faults, it's not as the visuals were deliberately made to overshadow the story.

The Princess and the Frog was not as a bih apology for Song of the South to begin with, due to how it has it's shoehorned African-American Princess turning into a frog. Otherwise, I never understood what was so controversial about Song of the South to begin with.

You could say that The Legend of Tarzan inclusion of an African tribe could be perceived as an apology for not having one in the movie.

True, but I don't think Mulan was as much criticized for it's portrayal of Chinese. Just for being overall Americanized. I remember reading somewhere that it was praised for portraying Chinese eyes realistically, but I haven't found that article, unfortunately. And regarding Polynesians, I know there were a couple of criticism against Moana'sportrayal of them, but I don't think that havoc was as huge.

Good question. I have of course my nostalgic bias towards many Disney shorts, but I do like Silly Symphonies Flowers and Trees. Otherwise, I do like Donald Duck's Winter Storage, Wet Paint and The Flying Squirrel. I'm sure there are a lot of other ones that I like, but I can't remember them right now.

I'm sure Someday will be a part of the movie, due to how it's musically one of the biggest anthems in the film. At least In a Place of Miracles do have a chance of being a part of the movie, due to it being a deleted song. I'm sure the Gargoyles will be disccarded from the live action movie.

Good question. I do like The Art of Hercules, since it was the very first one I bought. And I do like Charles Solomon's of Beauty and the Beast. Otherwise, I do like the one for Pinocchio. I don't know if I've said this before, but I think the current Art of-books happen to follow a similar structure and pattern. They don't come in a variety of shapes and sizes as before, they tend to come in a similar pattern.

Nope, but at least Moana was not meant to represent a specific culture. It's fair to assume that Elena was made to cater the aforementioned theories about Sofia. To be honest, I've never seen one single episode about Elena. I find really their Princess titles to be contrived, since they've never even been a part of the lineup, despite being somewhat promoted with it.

Surprised to see that Cinderella is peaking at such popularity. I thought her naysayers were doing the best to detract her from her peak and that she was considered too old-fashioned. But The Art of Cinderella-book actually confirms her popularity. I knew that Belle was popular, though and personally I wouldn't mind if she was even more

Yeah, but neither Miley or Demi were good actresses to begin with. Demi's acting in Sonny with a Chance was cringeworthy and Miley's acting in her synonymous role and in The Last Song were not much to brag about. At least Selena had a little more potential, but I haven't seen her in later roles. So therefore I think it's a perfect fit that all of them are stuck to music, certainly since Demi and Miley were made for it.

Btw, I saw Ralph Breaks the Internet. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. I was expecting to groan and frown of it, due to it's already established faults. I was surprised to see how even more spiteful Ralph was towards Vanellope than vice versa. Otherwise, while I felt that Vanellope's decision was a little shoehorned in, I thought the film handled it nicely. And as for the famous Princess-scene, it was okay enough, but I've had my aforementioned issues with it, so it wasn't as great as it could've been.But overall a good movie, nonetheless. It's a pity that it's upcoming bonus features won't be much to brag about.

I wouldn't say that the visuals of Pocahontas were meant to overshadow the story, but since Disney desperately wanted an Oscar win with this film, it's safe to say that the visuals were really dramatized, especially compared to past Disney films, to amplify the film's message.

After watching Song of the South myself, I didn't find it super racist either, although after everything Disney has done to cover the film up, it's easy to understand why people think it must be one of the most racist films ever like Birth of a Nation. I do know that even when the film was released, it was criticized for certain elements, which even back then, people said wouldn't age well and that's pretty much what ended up happening.

I don't think the Tarzan TV show's inclusion of an African tribe was meant as an apology for not including Africans in the movie. Especially, since the original book is criticized for being quite racist with its portrayal of black people. There's a reason Disney cut the African tribes out completely. The TV series was designed to bring back the serial pulp elements, hence why it's styled after the original movies, books, and comics.

I've read something about the Chinese eyes in Mulan being portrayed realistically as well. Mainly, the history and timeline of the film was off and regional differences were completely ignored. Mulan's character was criticized for being overly westernized, which always makes me laugh since the film was retooled because Disney felt it was too westernized in the first place. Oh, and Chinese people don't necessarily complain about this, but they mock Mulan's appearance because she doesn't appeal to their sense of beauty. They claim that her looks are also what western people think a Chinese beauty should look like.

I always liked the Donald cartoons featuring Daisy, since I'm a big fan of her and she didn't have much presence in the early Disney years. I also always loved Two Chips and a Miss (which introduces Clarice, the female chipmunk) so I'm not surprised that she's so beloved in Japan. Wish she had more presence in the U.S.

Yeah, lots of people here have been commenting that Someday will likely be brought back into the film since the melody is such a big part of the film's score. It's possible they'll go the way of the German musical and keep the gargoyles, but tone them down. Apparently, even the animated versions were always meant to be imaginary (as said in the Art of Hunchback book) but that's not very apparent on screen because they interact with the environment and other characters so many times. I imagine that the live-action film will make them being imaginary more obvious. I hope Djali isn't scrapped though.

I still need to get Charles Solomon's BATB book. I didn't want the new one with the live-action film included, which is fine since it's OOP now as well. I also need to get the Pinocchio one because I feel like the price for that has been hiking up so likely it will be OOP soon. From what I remember, even the old Art of books were generally in similar sizes. I think Hercules was a major exception but I think the rest of the ones released in the 90s were generally the same dimensions. However, I buy the deluxe versions so maybe that's why.

I think Moana originally was supposed to be based off of a single culture, but they decided that they wanted to be more inclusive so they made her a hodgepodge of different Polynesian and Oceanic cultures. Elena has been described to be as authentic as Taco Bell. I've never seen it either so I can't say myself.

The list of the DP popularity I posted was way back from 2000 but I think Cinderella would still be at the top. She's a universal character that every culture admires so even with her haters, she probably won't be dropping from her top rank anytime soon. Rapunzel is probably somewhere in the top three or four now alongside Elsa.

You're right about Miley and Demi's acting abilities and the fact that they debuted primarily as singers, unlike Selena Gomez.

I'm glad you enjoyed WIR2. I actually don't remember Ralph being especially spiteful to Vanellope until after he sabotages her game. What I do remember was that he was overly clingy and it just came off as desperate and annoying. Disney has been lax about all their home video releases for this entire decade. If they didn't bother with their darling Frozen, they definitely won't bother with this film's home video release.

I wouldn't say that the visuals of Pocahontas were meant to overshadow the story, but since Disney desperately wanted an Oscar win with this film, it's safe to say that the visuals were really dramatized, especially compared to past Disney films, to amplify the film's message.

Fair enough. That's a good observation. The color pallet in Pocahontas is certainly bold and artistic and does take several bold choices, which is certainly evident in both Savages and If I Never Knew You, where the characters are litterally bathed in color. I think really the color pallet for that movie is one of the best that Disney has ever come up with.

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After watching Song of the South myself, I didn't find it super racist either, although after everything Disney has done to cover the film up, it's easy to understand why people think it must be one of the most racist films ever like Birth of a Nation. I do know that even when the film was released, it was criticized for certain elements, which even back then, people said wouldn't age well and that's pretty much what ended up happening.

Okay. I've never happened to see the film myself, but having researched the buzz, I never understood why there were so much buzz around it in the first place. And yes, it's easy to claim that Walt was an racist and while it could be speculated as so, at least he did the Ferdinand short and Saludos Amigos before getting into The Jungle Book . It was really with the Renaissance that Disney expanded their cultural horizons.

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I've read something about the Chinese eyes in Mulan being portrayed realistically as well. Mainly, the history and timeline of the film was off and regional differences were completely ignored. Mulan's character was criticized for being overly westernized, which always makes me laugh since the film was retooled because Disney felt it was too westernized in the first place. Oh, and Chinese people don't necessarily complain about this, but they mock Mulan's appearance because she doesn't appeal to their sense of beauty. They claim that her looks are also what western people think a Chinese beauty should look like.

You know what, I remember actually reading an old IMDb tread about this and there were an user that claimed that the Asian girls he knew were offended by this depiction. But who knows, sometimes I get offended by certain Norwegian and Scandinavian representations by certain TV shows and such.

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I always liked the Donald cartoons featuring Daisy, since I'm a big fan of her and she didn't have much presence in the early Disney years. I also always loved Two Chips and a Miss (which introduces Clarice, the female chipmunk) so I'm not surprised that she's so beloved in Japan. Wish she had more presence in the U.S.

Okay, what do you like about Daisy?

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Yeah, lots of people here have been commenting that Someday will likely be brought back into the film since the melody is such a big part of the film's score. It's possible they'll go the way of the German musical and keep the gargoyles, but tone them down. Apparently, even the animated versions were always meant to be imaginary (as said in the Art of Hunchback book) but that's not very apparent on screen because they interact with the environment and other characters so many times. I imagine that the live-action film will make them being imaginary more obvious. I hope Djali isn't scrapped though.

I hope that Djali isn't scrapped as well. At least he made sense to be in the movie, due to him being from the novel (I remember reading somewhere an user review that Disney kept him in to make up for the radical stuff in the movie, which makes me cringe). As for the Gargoyles, it would be easy to assume that they were imaginary, but remember that Djali can see them and they do help to defeat the soldiers in the climax.

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I still need to get Charles Solomon's BATB book. I didn't want the new one with the live-action film included, which is fine since it's OOP now as well. I also need to get the Pinocchio one because I feel like the price for that has been hiking up so likely it will be OOP soon. From what I remember, even the old Art of books were generally in similar sizes. I think Hercules was a major exception but I think the rest of the ones released in the 90s were generally the same dimensions. However, I buy the deluxe versions so maybe that's why.

Do that. And yes, though the old Art of books were similar in sizes, they were still different in shapes and content.

Have we ever talked about Winnie the Pooh, btw?

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You're right about Miley and Demi's acting abilities and the fact that they debuted primarily as singers, unlike Selena Gomez.

To be honest, I've used to find Selena Gomez' foray into music to be very contrived. But of course it wasn't strange, due to her being a corporate Disney puppet at the same time, so it was just a matter of time that she would get into music. Yet to be fair, her debut CD was fairly cute and her songs haven't been bad. As for Miley, she debuted as both a singer and an actress.

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I'm glad you enjoyed WIR2. I actually don't remember Ralph being especially spiteful to Vanellope until after he sabotages her game. What I do remember was that he was overly clingy and it just came off as desperate and annoying. Disney has been lax about all their home video releases for this entire decade. If they didn't bother with their darling Frozen, they definitely won't bother with this film's home video release.

No, that was the time where he actually crossed the line. Otherwise, I found it really remarkable that the end credits had a "trailer" for Frozen II and that the toddler that was modeled after Moana was actually in the end credits. That was too meta. Yet it was fun enough.

So you also liked the new Frozen II teaser? So did I. Surprised that it was action-oriented, which gave me a mystery feel. It did remind me somewhat of Brave and Pocahontas, especially since there's such a fall-vibe to it. I wonder who's the other girl in the trailer, besides the royal sisters. But I'm still curious about what the plot is going to be about.

Fair enough. That's a good observation. The color pallet in Pocahontas is certainly bold and artistic and does take several bold choices, which is certainly evident in both Savages and If I Never Knew You, where the characters are litterally bathed in color. I think really the color pallet for that movie is one of the best that Disney has ever come up with.

Okay. I've never happened to see the film myself, but having researched the buzz, I never understood why there were so much buzz around it in the first place. And yes, it's easy to claim that Walt was an racist and while it could be speculated as so, at least he did the Ferdinand short and Saludos Amigos before getting into The Jungle Book . It was really with the Renaissance that Disney expanded their cultural horizons.

You know what, I remember actually reading an old IMDb tread about this and there were an user that claimed that the Asian girls he knew were offended by this depiction. But who knows, sometimes I get offended by certain Norwegian and Scandinavian representations by certain TV shows and such.

Okay, what do you like about Daisy?

I hope that Djali isn't scrapped as well. At least he made sense to be in the movie, due to him being from the novel (I remember reading somewhere an user review that Disney kept him in to make up for the radical stuff in the movie, which makes me cringe). As for the Gargoyles, it would be easy to assume that they were imaginary, but remember that Djali can see them and they do help to defeat the soldiers in the climax.

Do that. And yes, though the old Art of books were similar in sizes, they were still different in shapes and content.

Have we ever talked about Winnie the Pooh, btw?

To be honest, I've used to find Selena Gomez' foray into music to be very contrived. But of course it wasn't strange, due to her being a corporate Disney puppet at the same time, so it was just a matter of time that she would get into music. Yet to be fair, her debut CD was fairly cute and her songs haven't been bad. As for Miley, she debuted as both a singer and an actress.

No, that was the time where he actually crossed the line. Otherwise, I found it really remarkable that the end credits had a "trailer" for Frozen II and that the toddler that was modeled after Moana was actually in the end credits. That was too meta. Yet it was fun enough.

So you also liked the new Frozen II teaser? So did I. Surprised that it was action-oriented, which gave me a mystery feel. It did remind me somewhat of Brave and Pocahontas, especially since there's such a fall-vibe to it. I wonder who's the other girl in the trailer, besides the royal sisters. But I'm still curious about what the plot is going to be about.

I really liked reading your take on the Pocahontas color palette. I agree with you completely that it's so revolutionary for Disney.

The main criticism that Song of the South gets is for sugarcoating the treatment of African Americans in the Reconstruction era (post-Civil War). How all the AA characters in the movie are happy despite their poor lifestyles and being treated as inferiors to their former white overlords. And many increasingly ignorant audiences thought that they were actually still slaves in the movie, even though that has been debunked and was never the case.

Saludos Amigos was more because Disney was told to make movies for WWII and build a friendship with Latin America so they wouldn't join the Axis powers or turn to Communism. In some of my Disney books, there is concept art for films or shorts based off of other cultures, like Latin American, Native American, and African American, but they never ended up getting further than art development. The Jungle Book is sort of a laughable example since most of it features animals lol, but it was classic Disney's sole claim to diversity for the longest time until Aladdin.

Actually I found this article recently about Chinese complaints about Mulan. You mentioned earlier that Mulan was praised for having a realistic depiction of Chinese eyes, something I remember reading earlier as well, but it's funny because this article has Chinese people complaining about the eyes. Most of the complaints though are about how they misinterpreted Chinese culture (or more accurately, didn't even bother because they just inserted their Western sensibilities). The part where a man is describing how a Chinese dragon would actually act (which is anything but how Mushu acts) really made me laugh though, because the man's explanation made it seem like dragons are such a staple of Chinese society that he's regularly observed them. https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.html

I've always liked Donald for his temper and his antics so Daisy tends to get most of her screentime with him, at least in the old shorts. What I liked about her was that she wasn't as sweet as Minnie and she had a temper of her own that she was prone to exercising but she never nearly gets as much flack for it as Donald does.

Since Disney likes to sell plush toys even for their live-action films, I'm guessing Djali will stay. I've heard lots of people say that as kids, Djali was their fav part of the movie. I read in the art book that Djali's inclusion had the purpose of entertaining kids since the film was so dark. Of course, the gargoyles had the same purpose to fulfill but we all know how well that worked out.

Oh, ok. I didn't realize the old art books were all different shapes as well. I guess I'll find out one day when I start to get some more.

I don't think we've discussed Winnie the Pooh ever actually. It's one of my favs and I love the original movie, The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, and Pooh's Grand Adventure. On the other hand, the 2011 film didn't sit well with me. It's humor attempts to be too modern and it even insults some of the characters which the original never did.

Selena's songs used to be very generic imo although that's not to say that there weren't a few that I didn't like. You're right that Miley debuted as a singer and actress both but so did Demi. In fact, Demi was a child actress (much like Selena) since they both met on Barney.

I left the movie before the "sneak peak" for Frozen II because I had no interest in wasting my time for such a silly joke. I remember the baby Moana lookalike in the trailer and I didn't care for it then either.

Yeah, I really enjoyed the Frozen II teaser. It actually reminds me a lot of the Brave teaser which everyone raved about until they actually saw the actual movie. Hope history doesn't repeat itself with Frozen II but I don't believe that will be the case. I think with the subtitle that the movie has in some foreign countries (Secret of Arendelle), that Elsa and Anna will be learning some secret about their past or family lineage. The musical creating the hidden folk and making the queen one of their members makes me think they may go that route. It would explain Elsa's own magical abilities and possibly why she's in the water by the shore, because she's searching for clues about the shipwreck that killed her parents.

I really liked reading your take on the Pocahontas color palette. I agree with you completely that it's so revolutionary for Disney.

Thanks Remember that my readings are always good ones Just kidding I do like the overall look of the film, the bright pastel colors. I remember the Disney Adventures Magazine special of this film comfirmed and compared it to the color palette of The Lion King. What used to baffle me is that some reviewers said that the color palette of Pocahontas were muted, yet they were still bright enough (for me).

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Saludos Amigos was more because Disney was told to make movies for WWII and build a friendship with Latin America so they wouldn't join the Axis powers or turn to Communism. In some of my Disney books, there is concept art for films or shorts based off of other cultures, like Latin American, Native American, and African American, but they never ended up getting further than art development. The Jungle Book is sort of a laughable example since most of it features animals lol, but it was classic Disney's sole claim to diversity for the longest time until Aladdin.

I've never actually seen Saludos Amigos entirely, just segments of it, but I'll definitively see it. As for The Jungle Book, it does feature a couple of humans (but we know how it turned out). Yet I've heard that even that movie has some racism scrutiny towards it (the monkeys)

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Actually I found this article recently about Chinese complaints about Mulan. You mentioned earlier that Mulan was praised for having a realistic depiction of Chinese eyes, something I remember reading earlier as well, but it's funny because this article has Chinese people complaining about the eyes. Most of the complaints though are about how they misinterpreted Chinese culture (or more accurately, didn't even bother because they just inserted their Western sensibilities). The part where a man is describing how a Chinese dragon would actually act (which is anything but how Mushu acts) really made me laugh though, because the man's explanation made it seem like dragons are such a staple of Chinese society that he's regularly observed them. https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.html

Okay. Unfortunately I couldn't read that article. I remember when I learned that Mulan was going to have a dragon (before the movie premiered), I thought that it was going to be a huge, real-size dragon. Yet to be fair, a pint-sized dragon as Mushu was a better fit to such a realistic premise as the movie has. Speaking of which, have you read all the theories about why the Stone Dragon never came to life? I've kind of wondered about it myself.

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I've always liked Donald for his temper and his antics so Daisy tends to get most of her screentime with him, at least in the old shorts. What I liked about her was that she wasn't as sweet as Minnie and she had a temper of her own that she was prone to exercising but she never nearly gets as much flack for it as Donald does.

To be honest, I've never seen the flack Donald gets, but I've always assumed that there were some, due to his tenacious personality. I've heard theories that Donald's characterization was based of Walt's himself. Did you ever see Quack Pack? Donald had his moments of selflessness and compassion, yet at the same time he happened to be more selfish there.

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Since Disney likes to sell plush toys even for their live-action films, I'm guessing Djali will stay. I've heard lots of people say that as kids, Djali was their fav part of the movie. I read in the art book that Djali's inclusion had the purpose of entertaining kids since the film was so dark. Of course, the gargoyles had the same purpose to fulfill but we all know how well that worked out.

I guess Djali will look very realistic and generic.

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I don't think we've discussed Winnie the Pooh ever actually. It's one of my favs and I love the original movie, The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, and Pooh's Grand Adventure. On the other hand, the 2011 film didn't sit well with me. It's humor attempts to be too modern and it even insults some of the characters which the original never did.

My first exposure to Winnie the Pooh was through The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh series, which I loved (though to the fair, at the time I thought some episodes were lackluster as well). As for the original film, I remember renting Winnie the Pooh and Tigger too as a child and I thought it was okay, yet nothing that I went gaga for. But when I saw the entire film, I did in fact like it a lot. As for the other products, I never saw them, but I disliked Tigger The Movie and the Heffalump movie (though Pooh's Grand Adventure was okay, though). As for the 2011 edition, I haven't seen it, but at least it got better remarks. Wonder how Christopher Robin is like. I grew up with Disney's Winnie the Pooh through the merchandise. Or at least say the magazines and the read alongs, so Winnie the Pooh was a part of my childhood. I had an acquaintance who hated Disney and everything that was meant for kids, but he liked the original Winnie the Pooh stories for some reason. I actually have an Disney-obsessed friend of mine, who always gets picked on for her Disney interest by her mom, but the mom happens to love Winnie the Pooh (makes a lot of sense, huh?)

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In fact, Demi was a child actress (much like Selena) since they both met on Barney.

And they were best friends for a long time before they suddenly weren't close anymore. I know there were several theories of it, but I wonder why. Perhaps the real reason isn't as complicated as people would think of, but who knows?

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I left the movie before the "sneak peak" for Frozen II because I had no interest in wasting my time for such a silly joke. I remember the baby Moana lookalike in the trailer and I didn't care for it then either.

I remember that I wonder where in the film the baby was going to be a part of it and I was startled that it was a meta-joke at the end credits. It was fun enough, but perhaps a little too meta. As was the Frozen II joke.

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Yeah, I really enjoyed the Frozen II teaser. It actually reminds me a lot of the Brave teaser which everyone raved about until they actually saw the actual movie. Hope history doesn't repeat itself with Frozen II but I don't believe that will be the case. I think with the subtitle that the movie has in some foreign countries (Secret of Arendelle), that Elsa and Anna will be learning some secret about their past or family lineage. The musical creating the hidden folk and making the queen one of their members makes me think they may go that route. It would explain Elsa's own magical abilities and possibly why she's in the water by the shore, because she's searching for clues about the shipwreck that killed her parents.

I wonder what the storyline actually is going to be about. It will most likely be a journey, yet I wonder if there's actually going to be Sami people in this sequel. As for counting Frozen II into the Revival era, with the exception of The Princess and the Frog, there's been a three year gap between each current Princess movie (Tangled, Frozen and Moana), so Frozen II fills the three year gap synergy filled. I wonder how Elsa's characterization is going to be. I guess she'll have more screentime, but I wonder if her personality is going to be more enhanced.

Btw, regarding that Brother Bear tried to be a Renaissance film; I think that despite that it feels more classic Disney than it's counterparts of that decade, it still doesn't have all the components from the Renaissance; Romance, the outcast-trope and a real villain (but of course that was the point of the movie, to not have a real villain). In fact, the films of the early 2000's were pretty much road movies (regardless of that's a trope that the Revival era has been frequenctly criticized for), but at least they were road movies that were buddy-pictures, so to speak (with the exception of Atlantis, which is a road movie of a team and Lilo & Stitch, which is not a road movie at all). Though The Emperor's New Groove is more overt of this, at least Brother Bear is still a buddy picture between Kenai and Koda, with no emphasis of a romance as a subplot.In fact, since The Emperor's New Groove turned out to be a different picture than Kingdom of the Sun, I assumed that Brother Bear was essentially made as a departure from the movie as Groove eventually became to be, since Brother Bear is primarily a drama.

Btw, since Brave is strikingly reminiscent of Brother Bear, which movie do you like most? I'll say Brave, since despite it's lackluster story and tonal problems, it didn't felt as tonally incohesive as Brother Bear and more effort put into the actual mood and tone.

Hey, DisneyFan09. I'm so sorry for never responding to you! I think this thread got lost in the page count and I always assumed that I had responded so I'm so embarrassed for having lost track of our conversation. It's funny how I used to apologize if I was a day or two late with my reply but now it's been months lol. I hope you can forgive me because I really enjoyed our conversations here.

DisneyFan09 wrote:

Thanks Remember that my readings are always good ones Just kidding I do like the overall look of the film, the bright pastel colors. I remember the Disney Adventures Magazine special of this film comfirmed and compared it to the color palette of The Lion King. What used to baffle me is that some reviewers said that the color palette of Pocahontas were muted, yet they were still bright enough (for me).

Haha, I trust your readings. That's funny that people felt Pocahontas was more muted or washed out compared to The Lion King. Maybe because The Lion King uses really bold oranges and reds especially for the climactic scene whereas Pocahontas used a lot of more neutral blues and greens for the nature scenes and then sunset shades for the climax. I'm not sure though.

DisneyFan09 wrote:

I've never actually seen Saludos Amigos entirely, just segments of it, but I'll definitively see it. As for The Jungle Book, it does feature a couple of humans (but we know how it turned out). Yet I've heard that even that movie has some racism scrutiny towards it (the monkeys)

Most people find The Three Cabelleros a better overall product than Saludos Amigos. I haven't seen either in a while so I don't remember which one I prefer myself. I've heard some people complain about Shanti's depiction in the film and how she's a victim of the male gaze and the start of Disney sexualizing their women of color (Jasmine, Pocahontas, Esmeralda, etc.), but as someone whose roots come from that part of the world (India/Pakistan), I've never had an issue with Shanti myself. She's barely in the movie anyway and she needed to get Mowgli to come to the man village somehow.

DisneyFan09 wrote:

Okay. Unfortunately I couldn't read that article. I remember when I learned that Mulan was going to have a dragon (before the movie premiered), I thought that it was going to be a huge, real-size dragon. Yet to be fair, a pint-sized dragon as Mushu was a better fit to such a realistic premise as the movie has. Speaking of which, have you read all the theories about why the Stone Dragon never came to life? I've kind of wondered about it myself.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.htmlSorrry about the link. This one should work better to chronicle Chinese reactions to Mulan. In the live-action Mulan thread, I've posted this alongside some more links too about the subject. I think dragons come in all shapes and sizes in China and some even have water powers so I liked that it wasn't a traditional take on a dragon. I've heard a theory about the Stone Dragon and how Mulan was the real one although I don't think that is what Disney themselves intended, but I could be wrong. It's a clever theory though.

DisneyFan09 wrote:

To be honest, I've never seen the flack Donald gets, but I've always assumed that there were some, due to his tenacious personality. I've heard theories that Donald's characterization was based of Walt's himself. Did you ever see Quack Pack? Donald had his moments of selflessness and compassion, yet at the same time he happened to be more selfish there.

I've never heard about Donald being based off of Walt. Usually people attribute Mickey more to Walt, at least the older, more adventurous and mischievous version of Mickey. I've never seen Quack Pack or any of the Disney Afternoon TV shows actually like Goof Troop, Darkwing Duck, Rescue Rangers, etc. That's interesting that you found Donald to be selfless but also more selfish at the same time. Does Daisy have a big role in Quack Pack?

DisneyFan09 wrote:

My first exposure to Winnie the Pooh was through The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh series, which I loved (though to the fair, at the time I thought some episodes were lackluster as well). As for the original film, I remember renting Winnie the Pooh and Tigger too as a child and I thought it was okay, yet nothing that I went gaga for. But when I saw the entire film, I did in fact like it a lot. As for the other products, I never saw them, but I disliked Tigger The Movie and the Heffalump movie (though Pooh's Grand Adventure was okay, though). As for the 2011 edition, I haven't seen it, but at least it got better remarks. Wonder how Christopher Robin is like. I grew up with Disney's Winnie the Pooh through the merchandise. Or at least say the magazines and the read alongs, so Winnie the Pooh was a part of my childhood. I had an acquaintance who hated Disney and everything that was meant for kids, but he liked the original Winnie the Pooh stories for some reason. I actually have an Disney-obsessed friend of mine, who always gets picked on for her Disney interest by her mom, but the mom happens to love Winnie the Pooh (makes a lot of sense, huh?)

I'm glad you liked the three main Winnie the Pooh shorts when they were all put together in the form of The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh. It's highly underrated as a film imo and doesn't get the credit it should be due. I never watched The Heffalump Movie but I did watch The Tigger Movie and Piglet's Big Movie because I would have been the pre-school age demographic they targeted back then. Never seen Christopher Robin and I have no interest in watching it myself. It's basically the Winnie the Pooh version of Hook and Mary Poppins Returns a few months later repeats that storyline yet again. Disney needs to come up with something different now than the same formula of adult being jaded by real life and needing to be rescued by his childhood friends and stories to rediscover his inner child.

A lot of people differentiate the original Winnie the Pooh stories from the Disney version of Winnie the Pooh or even Disney in general. There's a reason Pooh is marketed in the form of two separate brands: Classic Pooh (based off of the original illustrations from the books) and Modern/Regular/Normal Pooh which is the Disney version. Classic Pooh is specifically meant for lovers of the books. I had a teacher who despised Disney as well but she had all this Tigger and Pooh merchandise (ironically enough the Disney versions, not even the Classic versions).

DisneyFan09 wrote:

And they were best friends for a long time before they suddenly weren't close anymore. I know there were several theories of it, but I wonder why. Perhaps the real reason isn't as complicated as people would think of, but who knows?

I wonder if there was jealousy between Selena and Demi since they were both probably pit against each other by the public for pursing singing careers. That's normal in the industry but it's a shame if their friendship broke up as a result of that. I've always been a big Demi fan. Selena never appealed to me that much until recent years with her return to music.

DisneyFan09 wrote:

I remember that I wonder where in the film the baby was going to be a part of it and I was startled that it was a meta-joke at the end credits. It was fun enough, but perhaps a little too meta. As was the Frozen II joke.

WIR2 was an entirely meta film at the end of the day so I'm not surprised by its end-credits scenes. I'm glad the film didn't do nearly as well as Disney hoped and I hope this kills any future plans for spin-offs or another sequel.

DisneyFan09 wrote:

I wonder what the storyline actually is going to be about. It will most likely be a journey, yet I wonder if there's actually going to be Sami people in this sequel. As for counting Frozen II into the Revival era, with the exception of The Princess and the Frog, there's been a three year gap between each current Princess movie (Tangled, Frozen and Moana), so Frozen II fills the three year gap synergy filled. I wonder how Elsa's characterization is going to be. I guess she'll have more screentime, but I wonder if her personality is going to be more enhanced.

I never realized that there's been a three year gap between each princess film of the Revival. I wonder what we can expect in 2022 after Frozen II then. Im' assuming 2025 will be Frozen III lol. Elsa was pretty boring in Frozen Fever and Olaf's Frozen Adventure, but she already looks more exciting in the teaser so I trust Disney with her portrayal. They won't mess up one of their biggest cash cows.

DisneyFan09 wrote:

Btw, regarding that Brother Bear tried to be a Renaissance film; I think that despite that it feels more classic Disney than it's counterparts of that decade, it still doesn't have all the components from the Renaissance; Romance, the outcast-trope and a real villain (but of course that was the point of the movie, to not have a real villain). In fact, the films of the early 2000's were pretty much road movies (regardless of that's a trope that the Revival era has been frequenctly criticized for), but at least they were road movies that were buddy-pictures, so to speak (with the exception of Atlantis, which is a road movie of a team and Lilo & Stitch, which is not a road movie at all). Though The Emperor's New Groove is more overt of this, at least Brother Bear is still a buddy picture between Kenai and Koda, with no emphasis of a romance as a subplot.In fact, since The Emperor's New Groove turned out to be a different picture than Kingdom of the Sun, I assumed that Brother Bear was essentially made as a departure from the movie as Groove eventually became to be, since Brother Bear is primarily a drama.

Btw, since Brave is strikingly reminiscent of Brother Bear, which movie do you like most? I'll say Brave, since despite it's lackluster story and tonal problems, it didn't felt as tonally incohesive as Brother Bear and more effort put into the actual mood and tone.

You're right that Brother Bear was missing out on many classic elements from the Renaissance era like romance and villains. Even the songs weren't as big a part of the film as they were in Tarzan were they were more coherently implemented into the storyline. In Brother Bear, they feel very generic like they could belong to any movie. I'm very tired of the buddy comedy and especially two buddies on a road trip genre. Pixar has repeated that over and over and with the Revival, Disney's made it clear that they want to constantly utilize this over and over too. Probably that's why Lilo & Stitch was so refreshing to me because it wasn't a roadtrip film. To be fair, The Emperor's New Groove didn't have a romance either, much like Brother Bear, although I still would have preferred Kingdom of the Sun. I feel like it could have been a Tarzan-sized hit if the reviews had been good.

I haven't seen Brother Bear in a long time but from what I remember, I'd have to say Brave. Brave was disappointing but I prefer Merida over Kenai and although I didn't care for the humor in either film, the visuals in Brave are absolutely gorgeous and I like the music as well whereas I don't remember any song or part of the score from Brother Bear. The side characters are pretty terrible though in both films between the boorish kings in Brave and the moose in Brother Bear.

Hey, DisneyFan09. I'm so sorry for never responding to you! I think this thread got lost in the page count and I always assumed that I had responded so I'm so embarrassed for having lost track of our conversation. It's funny how I used to apologize if I was a day or two late with my reply but now it's been months lol. I hope you can forgive me because I really enjoyed our conversations here.

Hey JeanGreyForever. Of course I'll forgive ya I thought that you had forgotten me or that if you were just busy But I'm glad that you've remembered me

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Haha, I trust your readings. That's funny that people felt Pocahontas was more muted or washed out compared to The Lion King. Maybe because The Lion King uses really bold oranges and reds especially for the climactic scene whereas Pocahontas used a lot of more neutral blues and greens for the nature scenes and then sunset shades for the climax. I'm not sure though.(

Most likely. There were especially reviewers who pointed the muted colors of Pocahontas out, but I never felt that it was as muted. Compared to the color palette in Hercules, that was truly muted or even Mulan.

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I've heard some people complain about Shanti's depiction in the film and how she's a victim of the male gaze and the start of Disney sexualizing their women of color (Jasmine, Pocahontas, Esmeralda, etc.), but as someone whose roots come from that part of the world (India/Pakistan), I've never had an issue with Shanti myself. She's barely in the movie anyway and she needed to get Mowgli to come to the man village somehow.

Really? Have you Indian origins? Cool

Shanti was barely in the movie, but I know the animators had some trouble of making her seductive, yet not being too promiscuous, since both her and Mowgli are just kids anyways and being too sexy would've been tacky. Remarkable that she and Tiger Lily are the only non-Caucasian girls that were made in Walt's time and they were only kids. But I disliked Shanti's characterization in the sequel, where she was nothing but a prissy goody-two-shoes. Remarkable how Shanti never had a name until the Rhytm and Groove-game. I bet Disney were probably aware of not basing Jasmine off Shanti (and I've heard several complains about Jasmine looking rather Indian than Arabic).

Have you seen the live action Aladdin, btw?

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Sorrry about the link. This one should work better to chronicle Chinese reactions to Mulan. In the live-action Mulan thread, I've posted this alongside some more links too about the subject. I think dragons come in all shapes and sizes in China and some even have water powers so I liked that it wasn't a traditional take on a dragon. I've heard a theory about the Stone Dragon and how Mulan was the real one although I don't think that is what Disney themselves intended, but I could be wrong. It's a clever theory though.

Don't worry. Really, Mulan being the real Stone Dragon? Never heard of that theory.

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I've never heard about Donald being based off of Walt.

Really? I've heard it a couple of suggestions.

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Usually people attribute Mickey more to Walt, at least the older, more adventurous and mischievous version of Mickey.

I know. But the connection is still warranted, due to how Mickey was created in Walt's time.

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I've never seen Quack Pack or any of the Disney Afternoon TV shows actually like Goof Troop, Darkwing Duck, Rescue Rangers, etc. That's interesting that you found Donald to be selfless but also more selfish at the same time. Does Daisy have a big role in Quack Pack?.

Yes, Donald was usually selfish and conceited, yet he had his moments where he was genuinely warm and caring. As for Daisy, but she was frankly a more mature character. She had her moments of snark and spunk, but she frankly was a different character than from the shorts. To be honest, she was nicer to the triplets than Donald was and I thought they never truly gave her enough credit.

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I'm glad you liked the three main Winnie the Pooh shorts when they were all put together in the form of The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh. It's highly underrated as a film imo and doesn't get the credit it should be due. I never watched The Heffalump Movie but I did watch The Tigger Movie and Piglet's Big Movie because I would have been the pre-school age demographic they targeted back then. Never seen Christopher Robin and I have no interest in watching it myself. It's basically the Winnie the Pooh version of Hook and Mary Poppins Returns a few months later repeats that storyline yet again. Disney needs to come up with something different now than the same formula of adult being jaded by real life and needing to be rescued by his childhood friends and stories to rediscover his inner child.

Agreed, right? That trope formula has been done to death. It's a formula that has potential, yet it's often quite straight-forward. I'm probably not eager to see Christopher Robin, but I could always give it a shot.

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I wonder if there was jealousy between Selena and Demi since they were both probably pit against each other by the public for pursing singing careers. That's normal in the industry but it's a shame if their friendship broke up as a result of that. I've always been a big Demi fan. Selena never appealed to me that much until recent years with her return to music.

Could be. We all know Demi's famous "Ask Taylor"-comment that was filmed in 2010.

To be honest, I like Selena more than Demi, because I find Selena to be cuter and to be more marketable than Demi. Demi has talent and potential, but frankly I found her to be the least marketable than both Miley and Selena during her prime at Disney Channel.

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WIR2 was an entirely meta film at the end of the day so I'm not surprised by its end-credits scenes. I'm glad the film didn't do nearly as well as Disney hoped and I hope this kills any future plans for spin-offs or another sequel..

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if Disney continued the Wreck-It-Ralph-franchise. Just if they actually managed to keep true to what the original film was about in the first place; A premise about videogames.

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I never realized that there's been a three year gap between each princess film of the Revival. I wonder what we can expect in 2022 after Frozen II then. Im' assuming 2025 will be Frozen III lol.

No, you didn't? I've noticed it. I know there has been speculations about Disney making Frozen and Zootopia into franchises like other movie studios have (*cough, DreamWorks, cough*), but there's been rumors that has confirmed otherwise. Wonder how the Lin-Manuel Miranda project with a Latina Princess is going to be like, since it's been rumored to be a "sequel" to Moana (which honestly I couldn't picture).

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Elsa was pretty boring in Frozen Fever and Olaf's Frozen Adventure, but she already looks more exciting in the teaser so I trust Disney with her portrayal. They won't mess up one of their biggest cash cows.

True. At least we're now confirmed that she won't get any love interest, whether it's in female or male form. It's pretty daring to do so, though we've already gotten two others in Merida and Moana. Yet wonder if Disney actually considered to give Elsa a love interest. Do you like Elsa, btw? Have we talked about it before?

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You're right that Brother Bear was missing out on many classic elements from the Renaissance era like romance and villains. Even the songs weren't as big a part of the film as they were in Tarzan were they were more coherently implemented into the storyline. In Brother Bear, they feel very generic like they could belong to any movie. I'm very tired of the buddy comedy and especially two buddies on a road trip genre. Pixar has repeated that over and over and with the Revival, Disney's made it clear that they want to constantly utilize this over and over too. Probably that's why Lilo & Stitch was so refreshing to me because it wasn't a roadtrip film. To be fair, The Emperor's New Groove didn't have a romance either, much like Brother Bear, although I still would have preferred Kingdom of the Sun. I feel like it could have been a Tarzan-sized hit if the reviews had been good.

At least The Emperor's New Groove did have a romance in Pacha and Chicha, but at least their romance was not as prominent. As for the buddy trip-formula, it's fairly easy to write, due to how stories that takes on character journeys are labeled as being compelling, for taking the characters from point A to point B. Yet fortunately not every story needs a physical journey, as it's proven by Lilo & Stitch and several other of the Renaissance pictures.

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I haven't seen Brother Bear in a long time but from what I remember, I'd have to say Brave. Brave was disappointing but I prefer Merida over Kenai and although I didn't care for the humor in either film, the visuals in Brave are absolutely gorgeous and I like the music as well whereas I don't remember any song or part of the score from Brother Bear. The side characters are pretty terrible though in both films between the boorish kings in Brave and the moose in Brother Bear.

I'll have to say Brave as well. While it's overall written worse than Brother Bear, I thought that Brave's music and overall strengths gelled more than Brother Bear, who also feels half-baked. I thought Brave's music was overall marvelous. The only side character I liked in Brave was King Fergus, while the others were just meh. I find the character designs for the humans in Brother Bear to be pretty lackluster and in fact the bears are designed superiorly.

Hey JeanGreyForever. Of course I'll forgive ya I thought that you had forgotten me or that if you were just busy But I'm glad that you've remembered me

I'm so glad to hear that DisneyFan09! Don't worry, I could never forget you. I didn't see you very active on this site so I assumed you stopped visiting and I just happened to find an old post of yours with the search button when I checked your profile and found out that you still visit the site regularly. That's when I searched for this old thread and realized that I had never responded to your last post and the fault was mine for not keeping up.

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Most likely. There were especially reviewers who pointed the muted colors of Pocahontas out, but I never felt that it was as muted. Compared to the color palette in Hercules, that was truly muted or even Mulan.

Would you say Hercules has a muted color palette? Maybe I'm thinking of the Mount Olympus scenes but I guess the ones set in Thebes (which is the majority of the film) do have pretty muted colors. Lots of gray for the city buildings and streets. Mulan definitely has a muted color palette though especially with those watercolor backgrounds.

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Really? Have you Indian origins? Cool

Shanti was barely in the movie, but I know the animators had some trouble of making her seductive, yet not being too promiscuous, since both her and Mowgli are just kids anyways and being too sexy would've been tacky. Remarkable that she and Tiger Lily are the only non-Caucasian girls that were made in Walt's time and they were only kids. But I disliked Shanti's characterization in the sequel, where she was nothing but a prissy goody-two-shoes. Remarkable how Shanti never had a name until the Rhytm and Groove-game. I bet Disney were probably aware of not basing Jasmine off Shanti (and I've heard several complains about Jasmine looking rather Indian than Arabic).

Yes, I'm Pakistani so once removed from India I guess lol.

I think the portrayal of Shanti was just right, not too promiscuous but alluring enough to draw Mowgli's interest in the man village. Ugh, I despise Tiger Lily as you might remember. Everything about the Red Indians in Peter Pan were just garbage. I've never understood why something like Song of the South, which has problematic elements but is never overtly racist, gets banned for all intents and purposes but Peter Pan with that scene is still allowed to exist. Yeah, Shanti is pretty annoying in the sequel but someone needed to rein Mowgli in, especially once Baloo comes back in his life. I found Ranjan more annoying actually. I'm not familiar with that Jungle Book game (Rhythm and Groove). Was that released for the sequel or before that? I always assumed Shanti got her name for the sequel so I'm curious if Disney had already named her beforehand. Because of my Pakistani roots, I have ties to both India and the Arab world so I've never been bothered by Jasmine being an amalgam of both cultures because my own was similar to that and both India and the Middle East lay claim to Aladdin. The Arabian Nights stories mix together Arabian, Persian, Indian, Turkish, etc. cultures so I think it's appropriate enough. That's also why Naomi Scott's heritage as half-Indian wasn't bothersome to me.

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Have you seen the live action Aladdin, btw?

Yes, I have seen the live-action Aladdin. I really enjoyed the film despite some initial misgivings. Mena Massoud as Aladdin completely won me over. He's not as cocky or confident as the animated character but I liked this slightly insecure and shyer take on him. His singing voice was almost identical to the original Aladdin. Jasmine was also a different take but I adored Naomi Scott in the role. Will Smith was hilarious as well and really was able to take hold of the role in a way that the audience did not miss Robin Williams. My main complaint was Jafar who was really terrible and the climax should have involved the snake transformation. I liked the chase with the giant Iago but that alone wasn't enough to make for a compelling climax. I loved the dance sequences and the costumes and sets. Certainly better than what we got in BATB. I think a lot of the reason this film shined was because of how disappointing so many elements in BATB were. What did you think of the film?

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Don't worry. Really, Mulan being the real Stone Dragon? Never heard of that theory.

Yes, if you just type in Mulan stone dragon theory, lots of links and videos will come up in Google. It's quite a popular theory since I've seen it surface on Tumblr a lot.

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I know. But the connection is still warranted, due to how Mickey was created in Walt's time.

Yes, Donald was usually selfish and conceited, yet he had his moments where he was genuinely warm and caring. As for Daisy, but she was frankly a more mature character. She had her moments of snark and spunk, but she frankly was a different character than from the shorts. To be honest, she was nicer to the triplets than Donald was and I thought they never truly gave her enough credit.

I'll have to look more into Donald Duck and Walt Disney's connection. I never thought the two were very similar especially since Mickey was always Walt's favorite and he wanted Mickey to be the audience favorite again during the 40s when Donald eclipsed him in popularity.

From what I remember, Daisy was always nicer to the triplets than Donald was, even in the shorts. At least in the Mickey Mouseworks shorts and House of Mouse. You mentioned she was more mature in Quack Pack so does that mean she isn't as self-absorbed as she's sometimes made out to be in the shorts?

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Could be. We all know Demi's famous "Ask Taylor"-comment that was filmed in 2010.

To be honest, I like Selena more than Demi, because I find Selena to be cuter and to be more marketable than Demi. Demi has talent and potential, but frankly I found her to be the least marketable than both Miley and Selena during her prime at Disney Channel.

Haha, that "Ask Taylor" moment is pretty iconic. Like Mariah Carey and her "I don't know her" statement when referring to Jennifer Lopez. Demi came after Miley and Selena so that may have hurt because she was considered "yet another Miley" or "another Selena" and was probably constantly compared. The other two had hit TV shows whereas Demi's TV show was never that popular. Her claim to fame was the Camp Rock films which don't have the longevity of the TV shows to basic viewers since Miley and Selena can be seen in new episodes every week whereas after one film, viewers have to wait a few years before the sequel.

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To be honest, I wouldn't mind if Disney continued the Wreck-It-Ralph-franchise. Just if they actually managed to keep true to what the original film was about in the first place; A premise about videogames.

I don't think Disney has it in them to create a WIR sequel that would be true to the original based on how they've treated it. They've never really given it much merchandise either and pretty much treat it like the film doesn't exist. The same goes for films like Big Hero 6 and even Zootopia despite it being one of their biggest blockbusters.

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No, you didn't? I've noticed it. I know there has been speculations about Disney making Frozen and Zootopia into franchises like other movie studios have (*cough, DreamWorks, cough*), but there's been rumors that has confirmed otherwise. Wonder how the Lin-Manuel Miranda project with a Latina Princess is going to be like, since it's been rumored to be a "sequel" to Moana (which honestly I couldn't picture).

I think Zootopia 2 has been confirmed, but they just don't plan on announcing it yet or maybe not even this year. But I think a sequel is definitely going to happen. Frozen 3 probably depends on the performance of Frozen 2 but I wouldn't be surprised if they already have ideas circulating. The Moana "sequel" is probably more of a spiritual successor since Miranda will be working on the music for that. I doubt it has any sort of connection otherwise.

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True. At least we're now confirmed that she won't get any love interest, whether it's in female or male form. It's pretty daring to do so, though we've already gotten two others in Merida and Moana. Yet wonder if Disney actually considered to give Elsa a love interest. Do you like Elsa, btw? Have we talked about it before?

I think lacking a love interest will be the new trend for Disney heroines forward since The Nutcracker and the Four Realms went that route as well. Anna might be the last of a dying breed lol, minus the live-action counterparts for Belle, Jasmine, Cinderella, Aurora, etc. I wouldn't even be surprised if they delete romance for Mulan in her live-action remake. Then again, since they're trying to appeal to a Chinese audience, they might want to retain romance whereas if the film was more geared towards the American market, they'd probably delete the love interest.

We've talked about Frozen before but I don't know how in-depth we got about Elsa. I used to love Elsa and she was my favorite part of the film for the same shallow reasons that most kids love her: the dress, the hair, magic powers, the iconic song lol. However, I've lost a lot of interest in her after seeing how problematic certain elements of the character are. I don't mind a flawed heroine since that makes her more interesting, not to mention human, but to see her hailed as this perfect Disney character who is automatically better than all her princess predecessors is what bothers me. Just because she didn't marry a man she's just met doesn't make her superior to Snow White, Ariel, Cinderella, etc. I also wanted to see the darker side of her which we briefly see when she's battling Hans' troops, especially since the trailer made her out to be the villain or at least main antagonist. I think more shades of grey would have helped the character be even more unique and compelling as one of Disney's first reformed villains because making her completely faultless is as boring as making her completely evil. I think her lack of screentime in the first film contributes to this issue that we don't really ever get to know Elsa and the shorts since then haven't really made me like her more.

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At least The Emperor's New Groove did have a romance in Pacha and Chicha, but at least their romance was not as prominent. As for the buddy trip-formula, it's fairly easy to write, due to how stories that takes on character journeys are labeled as being compelling, for taking the characters from point A to point B. Yet fortunately not every story needs a physical journey, as it's proven by Lilo & Stitch and several other of the Renaissance pictures.

I guess you can count a romance between Pacha and Chicha although it's more like character background since they're married and have a family. It's never the plot or even subplot of the film like most other Disney romances tend to be a main crux of the film. We definitely need more variety in the current Disney and Pixar films beyond the buddy trip formula because that's the main staple of the Lasseter era. However, Onwards is promising to be exactly that and Soul will probably be something like that as well.

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I'll have to say Brave as well. While it's overall written worse than Brother Bear, I thought that Brave's music and overall strengths gelled more than Brother Bear, who also feels half-baked. I thought Brave's music was overall marvelous. The only side character I liked in Brave was King Fergus, while the others were just meh. I find the character designs for the humans in Brother Bear to be pretty lackluster and in fact the bears are designed superiorly.

Yeah, I really like the bear designs in Brother Bear, especially Kenai and Koda. The human characters didn't really resonate with me and they're not very memorable. I can't remember much of what they looked like besides Kenai in human form and one of this brothers.

I'm so glad to hear that DisneyFan09! Don't worry, I could never forget you. I didn't see you very active on this site so I assumed you stopped visiting and I just happened to find an old post of yours with the search button when I checked your profile and found out that you still visit the site regularly. That's when I searched for this old thread and realized that I had never responded to your last post and the fault was mine for not keeping up.

Aaaaw, that's so sweet Thanks and likewise. Usually I don't count how active I am on this board, but I happen to occassionally post now and then.

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Would you say Hercules has a muted color palette? Maybe I'm thinking of the Mount Olympus scenes but I guess the ones set in Thebes (which is the majority of the film) do have pretty muted colors. Lots of gray for the city buildings and streets.

Yes, I would say. To be frankly, Hercules has a quite muted color palette, with the exception of it's brighter scenes.

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Mulan definitely has a muted color palette though especially with those watercolor backgrounds.

Finally someone who agrees with me on that! I've always felt it and I'm surprised how few people have felt otherwise.

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Ugh, I despise Tiger Lily as you might remember. Everything about the Red Indians in Peter Pan were just garbage. I've never understood why something like Song of the South, which has problematic elements but is never overtly racist, gets banned for all intents and purposes but Peter Pan with that scene is still allowed to exist.

True, but that doesn't mean that it's accepted. So you despise Tiger Lily? I'm neutral about her, but frankly she's not much of a character. She doesn't do anything or is a contribution to the plot itself, with the exception of being a device for Peter. And even then, there's nothing to her. Even Pocahontas (who's labeled for being so dull and boring) is superior to her in every single way, lol

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Yeah, Shanti is pretty annoying in the sequel but someone needed to rein Mowgli in, especially once Baloo comes back in his life. I found Ranjan more annoying actually.

Oh, I'm glad that you agree with me on Shanti! She was originally going to be a stronger character and that would've made her more compelling. I wasn't too keen on Ranjan either, but to be fair, I thought that he and Mowgli shared a nice brotherly chemistry. The Jungle Book 2 may not be brilliant, but one of the reasons that it's resonated with me, is that it gives Mowgli's conflict a dilemma and depth, unlike it's predecessor. I don't know if I've said this before.

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I'm not familiar with that Jungle Book game (Rhythm and Groove). Was that released for the sequel or before that? I always assumed Shanti got her name for the sequel so I'm curious if Disney had already named her beforehand.

Yes, it was done prior to it's sequel. I thought that game was at least fun, though it didn't have all the original songs, at least it had a nice song for Shanti.

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Because of my Pakistani roots, I have ties to both India and the Arab world so I've never been bothered by Jasmine being an amalgam of both cultures because my own was similar to that and both India and the Middle East lay claim to Aladdin. The Arabian Nights stories mix together Arabian, Persian, Indian, Turkish, etc. cultures so I think it's appropriate enough. That's also why Naomi Scott's heritage as half-Indian wasn't bothersome to me.

But it's bothersome to other purists, lol No offence, though.

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Yes, I have seen the live-action Aladdin. I really enjoyed the film despite some initial misgivings. Mena Massoud as Aladdin completely won me over. He's not as cocky or confident as the animated character but I liked this slightly insecure and shyer take on him. His singing voice was almost identical to the original Aladdin. Jasmine was also a different take but I adored Naomi Scott in the role. Will Smith was hilarious as well and really was able to take hold of the role in a way that the audience did not miss Robin Williams. My main complaint was Jafar who was really terrible and the climax should have involved the snake transformation. I liked the chase with the giant Iago but that alone wasn't enough to make for a compelling climax. I loved the dance sequences and the costumes and sets. Certainly better than what we got in BATB. I think a lot of the reason this film shined was because of how disappointing so many elements in BATB were. What did you think of the film?

Yes, I've seen the live-action Aladdin, but didn't care for it. I thought it was a pale, generic and bland version of it's animated predecessor and rarely enhanced the strengths of it's predecessor. I've always thought that Aladdin in the animated version was a pretty likable character and had a good soul, so I felt that Mena Massoud enhanced his cocky qualities. He was cocky and spunky enough, without truly shining. Naomi Scott was fine in her role, though, despite that she perhaps had not the it-factor, but she was at least more tolerable than the animated Jasmine. Will Smith was as expected, not incredibly grating, yet not as successful as Williams' take. Marwan Kenzari was a complete miscast as Jafar, having zero charisma nor menace. I never cared for Speechless either. Otherwise, Aladdin had it's moments, but was overall pretty lackluster. Perhaps I should give it another shot?

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From what I remember, Daisy was always nicer to the triplets than Donald was, even in the shorts. At least in the Mickey Mouseworks shorts and House of Mouse. You mentioned she was more mature in Quack Pack so does that mean she isn't as self-absorbed as she's sometimes made out to be in the shorts?

Nope, she isn't.

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Haha, that "Ask Taylor" moment is pretty iconic. Like Mariah Carey and her "I don't know her" statement when referring to Jennifer Lopez.

Yes, that moment is a prime example of how things get so rapidly spread in our age of social media. I almost felt sorry for the uploader for the video.

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Demi came after Miley and Selena so that may have hurt because she was considered "yet another Miley" or "another Selena" and was probably constantly compared. The other two had hit TV shows whereas Demi's TV show was never that popular. Her claim to fame was the Camp Rock films which don't have the longevity of the TV shows to basic viewers since Miley and Selena can be seen in new episodes every week whereas after one film, viewers have to wait a few years before the sequel.

Well said. I remember having a friend through mail that said exact same thing and felt that Disney was launching Demi in a contrived way, instead of letting the audiences genuinely discover her, if you know what I mean. So yeah, she was perceived as being "yet another Miley or Selena" and was essentially the third wheel, which was inevitable. Oh and I remember all the Miley vs. Selena vs. Demi campaigns on the Internet when they were at Disney.

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The Moana "sequel" is probably more of a spiritual successor since Miranda will be working on the music for that. I doubt it has any sort of connection otherwise.

True, but I wonder why it's been labeled as a succesor to Moana.

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We've talked about Frozen before but I don't know how in-depth we got about Elsa. I used to love Elsa and she was my favorite part of the film for the same shallow reasons that most kids love her: the dress, the hair, magic powers, the iconic song lol. However, I've lost a lot of interest in her after seeing how problematic certain elements of the character are. I don't mind a flawed heroine since that makes her more interesting, not to mention human, but to see her hailed as this perfect Disney character who is automatically better than all her princess predecessors is what bothers me. Just because she didn't marry a man she's just met doesn't make her superior to Snow White, Ariel, Cinderella, etc. I also wanted to see the darker side of her which we briefly see when she's battling Hans' troops, especially since the trailer made her out to be the villain or at least main antagonist. I think more shades of grey would have helped the character be even more unique and compelling as one of Disney's first reformed villains because making her completely faultless is as boring as making her completely evil. I think her lack of screentime in the first film contributes to this issue that we don't really ever get to know Elsa and the shorts since then haven't really made me like her more.

To be honest, Elsa's lack of screentime is essentially one of the films major flaws, since Elsa is after all the catalyst of the events and actually is the character who has a genuine, internal conflict with high stakes. Yet she's unfortunately hampered by her reduced screentime, which really makes her characterization just as limited (and therefore is the polar opposite of her adorkable, vivacious sister). In fact, Elsa has been labeled as a genuine representation for mental illness, since her conflict has strikingly paralells with mental issues. So it's really no strange how many people have started those conspiration theories. Yet for all it's worth, Elsa is essentially not as complex as she could've been and practically is nothing but a passive victim who spends most of the film being practically a damsel in distress, but also one who does very little but being in despair. Yes, Elsa is not particularly evil and does what she does for genuine reasons and it's easy to sympathize with her. Yet she's not a particularly active and rarely does anything. I know before Frozen was released, there were many people who were looking forward to Elsa and compared her to the Beast, but for all the faults of the Beast, at least he was genuniely complex and had a more obvious arc. In fact, I'm not implying that Elsa should've been the main character. I guess the solution is after all fair, due to how the Snow Queen was never a protagonist in the first case. But for a character who possesses more cause to the plot, Elsa should've been given more screentime, regardless of being a main character or not. In fact, there's been such a fanbase to her character that I can hardly remember seeing to a Disney character before or after. And I'm not saying that it's undeserved, but it's baffling to see that her fanbase has been that huge, despite her aforementioned faults. At least Anna (despite her flaws) is a more active character, despite that she shouldn't have been the main one, since her arc just feels mandatory and shoehorned in. As aforementioned, it's easy to sympathize with Elsa, due to how Frozen came at a time at my life where I was deeply depressed due to my trauma, so she's identifable. Yet she's not a character that should've been put on a pedestal.

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I guess you can count a romance between Pacha and Chicha although it's more like character background since they're married and have a family. It's never the plot or even subplot of the film like most other Disney romances tend to be a main crux of the film.

True. It's easy to compare their romance to Esmeralda and Phoebus' romance in Hunchback. But to be fair, their romance is more integral to the plot. I bet Pacha and Nina's romance would've been more enhanced in Kingdom of the Sun. Even Nani and David's romance in Lilo & Stitch has it's own purpose (despite that don't even get to see them kiss).

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We definitely need more variety in the current Disney and Pixar films beyond the buddy trip formula because that's the main staple of the Lasseter era. However, Onwards is promising to be exactly that and Soul will probably be something like that as well.

To be honest, I'm a little intrigued by Onward, since it has an interesting premise. But I disliked the trailer, since it seemed to meta at the end. But it's interesting to have Chris Pratt in a Pixar film.

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Yeah, I really like the bear designs in Brother Bear, especially Kenai and Koda. The human characters didn't really resonate with me and they're not very memorable. I can't remember much of what they looked like besides Kenai in human form and one of this brothers.

True, but people have a tendency to prefer the human scenes in Brother Bear after all. I prefer the early designs for Kenai and the other characters, since they looked more compelling. But what's remarkable is that despite that this movie is about Inuits, early concept art in the Brother Bear: A Transformation Tale book actually had Native American Indians instead, despite how they claim that it was going to be about Inuits. Wonder why they had Native American Indians in the concept art.

Yes, I would say. To be frankly, Hercules has a quite muted color palette, with the exception of it's brighter scenes.

Finally someone who agrees with me on that! I've always felt it and I'm surprised how few people have felt otherwise.

I guess I remember Hercules more for the Olympus scenes where he is always shining bright alongside the other gods. Strange that few people feel the same way about Mulan having a muted color palette, especially with that watercolor and ink intro.

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True, but that doesn't mean that it's accepted. So you despise Tiger Lily? I'm neutral about her, but frankly she's not much of a character. She doesn't do anything or is a contribution to the plot itself, with the exception of being a device for Peter. And even then, there's nothing to her. Even Pocahontas (who's labeled for being so dull and boring) is superior to her in every single way, lol

Yes, I really can't stand Tiger Lily at all. Found her character useless and there's a reason she has no fanbase clamoring for her, the way that even Kida and Eilowny sorta do online. I 100% agree that Pocahontas is superior to her in every way.

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Oh, I'm glad that you agree with me on Shanti! She was originally going to be a stronger character and that would've made her more compelling. I wasn't too keen on Ranjan either, but to be fair, I thought that he and Mowgli shared a nice brotherly chemistry. The Jungle Book 2 may not be brilliant, but one of the reasons that it's resonated with me, is that it gives Mowgli's conflict a dilemma and depth, unlike it's predecessor. I don't know if I've said this before.

What was Shanti's character originally going to be like in The Jungle Book 2? Yeah, Mowgli at least has compelling decision to make in the sequel unlike the original. That's something I liked about the live-action film as well because the character actually has to develop unlike the static one in the animated film.

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Yes, it was done prior to it's sequel. I thought that game was at least fun, though it didn't have all the original songs, at least it had a nice song for Shanti.

I'll have to look up that game online and see if I can find the song for Shanti. That's neat that Disney was consistent with the name because sometimes they would just give her a completely new name in the sequel and completely disregard whatever she was called in prior materials.

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But it's bothersome to other purists, lol No offence, though.

No offense taken. These "purists" have issues with everything so their opinions don't really bother me.

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Yes, I've seen the live-action Aladdin, but didn't care for it. I thought it was a pale, generic and bland version of it's animated predecessor and rarely enhanced the strengths of it's predecessor. I've always thought that Aladdin in the animated version was a pretty likable character and had a good soul, so I felt that Mena Massoud enhanced his cocky qualities. He was cocky and spunky enough, without truly shining. Naomi Scott was fine in her role, though, despite that she perhaps had not the it-factor, but she was at least more tolerable than the animated Jasmine. Will Smith was as expected, not incredibly grating, yet not as successful as Williams' take. Marwan Kenzari was a complete miscast as Jafar, having zero charisma nor menace. I never cared for Speechless either. Otherwise, Aladdin had it's moments, but was overall pretty lackluster. Perhaps I should give it another shot?

Perhaps you went in with inflated expectations the first time you saw Aladdin and with a rewatch, you'll already know what to expect so you might be more accepting? I don't know, but your take on the film sounds a lot like what critics felt about it. There have been some films I was neutral on when I first watched them but I grew to like upon a rewatch. I actually felt Aladdin was less cocky, or at least less confident. His demeanor in the Prince Ali song shows him to be super uncomfortable and he's pretty shy and insecure at the party scene. I like Speechless as an individual song but it doesn't really fit in with the rest of the film's music.

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Nope, she isn't.

This Daisy from Quack Pack sounds pretty different from the classical rendition of her. Was this in any shape or form connected to Duck Tales?

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Well said. I remember having a friend through mail that said exact same thing and felt that Disney was launching Demi in a contrived way, instead of letting the audiences genuinely discover her, if you know what I mean. So yeah, she was perceived as being "yet another Miley or Selena" and was essentially the third wheel, which was inevitable. Oh and I remember all the Miley vs. Selena vs. Demi campaigns on the Internet when they were at Disney.

I think Miley and a friend of hers posted a parody video of Demi and Selena back in the day which also caused a lot of friction amongst the fans. Probably the fans felt more slighted than the main girls themselves lol.

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True, but I wonder why it's been labeled as a succesor to Moana.

I think it was incorrectly called a sequel to Moana by the author of the article or maybe Miranda mentioned it that way to point out that this is sort of like a sequel for his work at Disney. I'm not sure really especially since we haven't heard of this project since.

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To be honest, Elsa's lack of screentime is essentially one of the films major flaws, since Elsa is after all the catalyst of the events and actually is the character who has a genuine, internal conflict with high stakes. Yet she's unfortunately hampered by her reduced screentime, which really makes her characterization just as limited (and therefore is the polar opposite of her adorkable, vivacious sister). In fact, Elsa has been labeled as a genuine representation for mental illness, since her conflict has strikingly paralells with mental issues. So it's really no strange how many people have started those conspiration theories. Yet for all it's worth, Elsa is essentially not as complex as she could've been and practically is nothing but a passive victim who spends most of the film being practically a damsel in distress, but also one who does very little but being in despair. Yes, Elsa is not particularly evil and does what she does for genuine reasons and it's easy to sympathize with her. Yet she's not a particularly active and rarely does anything. I know before Frozen was released, there were many people who were looking forward to Elsa and compared her to the Beast, but for all the faults of the Beast, at least he was genuniely complex and had a more obvious arc. In fact, I'm not implying that Elsa should've been the main character. I guess the solution is after all fair, due to how the Snow Queen was never a protagonist in the first case. But for a character who possesses more cause to the plot, Elsa should've been given more screentime, regardless of being a main character or not. In fact, there's been such a fanbase to her character that I can hardly remember seeing to a Disney character before or after. And I'm not saying that it's undeserved, but it's baffling to see that her fanbase has been that huge, despite her aforementioned faults. At least Anna (despite her flaws) is a more active character, despite that she shouldn't have been the main one, since her arc just feels mandatory and shoehorned in. As aforementioned, it's easy to sympathize with Elsa, due to how Frozen came at a time at my life where I was deeply depressed due to my trauma, so she's identifable. Yet she's not a character that should've been put on a pedestal.

I remember like you that people thought Elsa would be a very dynamic character in her film akin to the Beast. When the script was posted here, a lot of us were disappointed in how sidelined she is in her own film since it became evidnet that this was another road trip film in the vein of Tangled. That's what people online had been calling it anyway, especially after the title change: Tangled in Ice. At least Elsa looks like she'll take the spotlight in this next film. I agree that Anna was better served as the protagonist but the dynamic between the two should have been like Belle and the Beast in BATB with Belle as the protagonist who comes in and shakes things up while Beast being the one who is heavily impacted and forced to change. Yet, we don't get nearly enough time with Elsa and there's really not even a lot of screentime between the two sisters.

Anna's undying devotion to a sister she hasn't interacted with in 15 years or so (and on top of that, she doesn't even have the same memories that Elsa does) makes it hard to root for the two, especially since we never even get Anna's reaction to her realizing that she had memories of Elsa's powers taken away. Anna's angry reaction to Elsa in the deleted song, Life's Too Short, was far more realistic and showed the angst the two sisters would have with each other unlike the sugar-coated version we got in the final film.

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True. It's easy to compare their romance to Esmeralda and Phoebus' romance in Hunchback. But to be fair, their romance is more integral to the plot. I bet Pacha and Nina's romance would've been more enhanced in Kingdom of the Sun. Even Nani and David's romance in Lilo & Stitch has it's own purpose (despite that don't even get to see them kiss).

Even Esmeralda and Phoebus' romance though is something we see the start of and watch it grow and develop. How Quasi deals with it and doesn't go the route of Frollo is pretty important as well, since the character of Esmeralda is basically the catalyst that sets off the story with how the other male characters react to her (Quasi, Phoebus, Frollo). In that sense, I'd say it's far more relevant than Pacha and Chicha's story in TENG, who are already together with his family being minor characters at best. You could remove them and the story wouldn't really be altered very much. From what I've read and seen of Kingdom of the Sun, you're right that Pacha and Nina's relationship would have been more important especially to show the contrasting attitudes of Manco/Kuzco and Pacha. I never realized that like Mulan and Shang, Nani and David never kiss. Both films were made at the same studio so maybe that were averse to their romantic couples kissing lol.

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To be honest, I'm a little intrigued by Onward, since it has an interesting premise. But I disliked the trailer, since it seemed to meta at the end. But it's interesting to have Chris Pratt in a Pixar film.

Yeah, the teaser of Onward did not win me over at all. I'm not a Chris Pratt fan either but I do like Tom Holland. The film so far just feels like something any other studio would make rather than Disney/Pixar.

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True, but people have a tendency to prefer the human scenes in Brother Bear after all. I prefer the early designs for Kenai and the other characters, since they looked more compelling. But what's remarkable is that despite that this movie is about Inuits, early concept art in the Brother Bear: A Transformation Tale book actually had Native American Indians instead, despite how they claim that it was going to be about Inuits. Wonder why they had Native American Indians in the concept art.

I've never seen concept art for Brother Bear so I'll have to look it up to see what Kenai looked like. Maybe the original plan for Brother Bear was to feature Native American Indians before they transitioned to Inuits. I'm not that familiar with the history of this film so I'm not really sure though. The only thing I know is that the film was originally just titled Bears.

Strange that few people feel the same way about Mulan having a muted color palette, especially with that watercolor and ink intro.

Yet it's one of the most brightest scenes in the film. What do you think about that opening, btw?

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Yes, I really can't stand Tiger Lily at all. Found her character useless and there's a reason she has no fanbase clamoring for her, the way that even Kida and Eilowny sorta do online. I 100% agree that Pocahontas is superior to her in every way.

What's striking is that Tiger Lily isn't even likable at all and is basically an damsel in distress. And what plot does she serve besides making Wendy jealous?

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What was Shanti's character originally going to be like in The Jungle Book 2?

She was originally going to be spunkier and feistier, yet she was reduced to have an arc and since it wasn't her story.

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Yeah, Mowgli at least has compelling decision to make in the sequel unlike the original. That's something I liked about the live-action film as well because the character actually has to develop unlike the static one in the animated film.

Thanks for agreeing with me. I felt that Mowgli had a better arc in the live action film, despite not having the same dilemma as the animated sequel. But at least the Jon Favreau remake was better written and did set up a better plot for Mowgli.

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I'll have to look up that game online and see if I can find the song for Shanti. That's neat that Disney was consistent with the name because sometimes they would just give her a completely new name in the sequel and completely disregard whatever she was called in prior materials.

I know, right? But to be fair I think she could've been given a better name than Shanti.

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No offense taken. These "purists" have issues with everything so their opinions don't really bother me.

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I like Speechless as an individual song but it doesn't really fit in with the rest of the film's music.

Agreed. And I especially felt it's reprise was contrived when she's taken by the guards.

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This Daisy from Quack Pack sounds pretty different from the classical rendition of her. Was this in any shape or form connected to Duck Tales?

Nope, though it could've been so.

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I think Miley and a friend of hers posted a parody video of Demi and Selena back in the day which also caused a lot of friction amongst the fans. Probably the fans felt more slighted than the main girls themselves lol.

Oh, I remember that video! Frankly, at the time I found it to be somewhat malicious by Miley and Mandy to do so and it made me dislike Miley more at the time (sorry to say, but it did). Hard to believe that it's now been over a decade and I'm glad YouTube has changed since then; The Miley fever and exposure was overwhelming and it was simply hard to discuss her without being trashed by prissy, hostile Miley fans or obnoxious trolls on YouTube.

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I remember like you that people thought Elsa would be a very dynamic character in her film akin to the Beast. When the script was posted here, a lot of us were disappointed in how sidelined she is in her own film since it became evidnet that this was another road trip film in the vein of Tangled. That's what people online had been calling it anyway, especially after the title change: Tangled in Ice. At least Elsa looks like she'll take the spotlight in this next film. I agree that Anna was better served as the protagonist but the dynamic between the two should have been like Belle and the Beast in BATB with Belle as the protagonist who comes in and shakes things up while Beast being the one who is heavily impacted and forced to change. Yet, we don't get nearly enough time with Elsa and there's really not even a lot of screentime between the two sisters.

Oh, I remember when the script was posted and some of the users was complaining about Elsa's lack of screentime. And yes, there were people who called it Tangled on Ice (yet we'll have to remember that this roadtrip trope started with The Princess and the Frog). And yes, I agree. What do you think about my aforementioned rants about Elsa and that her characterization is representative of mental illness?

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Anna's undying devotion to a sister she hasn't interacted with in 15 years or so (and on top of that, she doesn't even have the same memories that Elsa does) makes it hard to root for the two, especially since we never even get Anna's reaction to her realizing that she had memories of Elsa's powers taken away. Anna's angry reaction to Elsa in the deleted song, Life's Too Short, was far more realistic and showed the angst the two sisters would have with each other unlike the sugar-coated version we got in the final film.

Well, Anna's undying devotion is pretty much an archetypical trope that we see in many characters. Just take Woody's devotion to Andy in Toy Story. Yet of course it's unrealistic and as you've said, their time together is not enhanced enough and therefore their final conclusion becomes quite hokey. And let's not forget that besides their plot, who practically is enough of a plot to a story, has the shoehorned element of Anna's triangle with Kristoff and Hans, that practically serves nothing to the story. There's nothing wrong with adding a love interest to the Princesses, but it shouldn't affect the story.

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Even Esmeralda and Phoebus' romance though is something we see the start of and watch it grow and develop. How Quasi deals with it and doesn't go the route of Frollo is pretty important as well, since the character of Esmeralda is basically the catalyst that sets off the story with how the other male characters react to her (Quasi, Phoebus, Frollo).

True. In that sense, Hunchback starts off as Quasimodo's story, but afterwards morphs into Frollo's lust for Esmeralda's story, which pretty much takes center spot after Hellfire. Quasimodo's arc gets somewhat sidelined until some spots here and there.

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I never realized that like Mulan and Shang, Nani and David never kiss. Both films were made at the same studio so maybe that were averse to their romantic couples kissing lol.

Lol! Well, Milo nor Kida never kisses at all.

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Yeah, the teaser of Onward did not win me over at all. I'm not a Chris Pratt fan either but I do like Tom Holland. The film so far just feels like something any other studio would make rather than Disney/Pixar.

Well, to be fair, the beginning of the teaser seemed nice and afterwards the trailer went downhill. Though at least the premise is intriguing, though. I've never been exactly gaga for Chris Pratt, but he can be entertaining at times and he has a lot of charisma.

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I've never seen concept art for Brother Bear so I'll have to look it up to see what Kenai looked like. Maybe the original plan for Brother Bear was to feature Native American Indians before they transitioned to Inuits. I'm not that familiar with the history of this film so I'm not really sure though. The only thing I know is that the film was originally just titled Bears.

It could be, though. I remember when Brother Bear was titled long ago in the Disney fansites in the late 90's, it was actually called Timber and was going to feature three bears. But perhaps it was just a vague rumor. I know they had various story problems with Brother Bear.

Yet it's one of the most brightest scenes in the film. What do you think about that opening, btw?

The Great Wall of China is a great way to open up the film and establish Shan Yu's villainy. I really like the instrumental music played during the background of the opening title as the ink creates mountains on watercolor. In fact, I think Mulan's opening act is the best. It's after Mulan leaves to go to war and Mushu and the ancestors pop in that the film loses much of its heart imo, exchanging dramatization for poorly aged jokes and anachronisms.

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What's striking is that Tiger Lily isn't even likable at all and is basically an damsel in distress. And what plot does she serve besides making Wendy jealous?

I completely agree with you about Tiger Lily. The entire Red Indian sequence just wasn't well done and I'm not surprised Return to Neverland scrapped them entirely.

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She was originally going to be spunkier and feistier, yet she was reduced to have an arc and since it wasn't her story.

Thanks for the information about Shanti's original character. I wonder if people would have liked her more with her earlier characterization.

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Thanks for agreeing with me. I felt that Mowgli had a better arc in the live action film, despite not having the same dilemma as the animated sequel. But at least the Jon Favreau remake was better written and did set up a better plot for Mowgli.

Yes, the Jon Favreau remake is a lot more consistent and better structured than the animated film. Mowgli really improves in that regard even if characters like Kaa and King Louie get the short end of the stick. I actually didn't mind King Louie's portrayal, although some fans did, but I really couldn't stand the new take on Kaa. I'm not a Scarlet Johansson fan so maybe that's why, but her voicework was really bland and not evocative at all. She sounded bored while reading her lines, much like Emma Watson in BATB lol.

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I know, right? But to be fair I think she could've been given a better name than Shanti.

I'm fine with the name Shanti, probably because it's the only name I've ever known her with. I think it suits her. I know back when Disney was planning on making The Emperor's Nightingale set in India, the lead princess was supposed to be named Padma. Perhaps you would prefer a name like that for Shanti?

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Agreed. And I especially felt it's reprise was contrived when she's taken by the guards.

The reprise of Speechless being all visualized in her head felt like a copout. I wish they could have staged that differently although I'm fine with how it ends up going if there really was no other option.

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Oh, I remember that video! Frankly, at the time I found it to be somewhat malicious by Miley and Mandy to do so and it made me dislike Miley more at the time (sorry to say, but it did). Hard to believe that it's now been over a decade and I'm glad YouTube has changed since then; The Miley fever and exposure was overwhelming and it was simply hard to discuss her without being trashed by prissy, hostile Miley fans or obnoxious trolls on YouTube.

Yes, I remember now that Miley's friend was named Mandy. Who was she? Was she one of Miley's background dancers or something? I remember I only used to go on YouTube back in the day to watch Hannah Montana episodes or songs, many of which were linked to her fansites. From there, I found the Miley and Mandy episode. I hadn't seen the Selena/Demi one at the time so I didn't realize Miley and Mandy were making a parody. I got really confused after I saw Selena and Demi's video because of how identical it was in structure and content to Miley and Mandy's. Finally, I read the comments and realized the truth.

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Oh, I remember when the script was posted and some of the users was complaining about Elsa's lack of screentime. And yes, there were people who called it Tangled on Ice (yet we'll have to remember that this roadtrip trope started with The Princess and the Frog). And yes, I agree. What do you think about my aforementioned rants about Elsa and that her characterization is representative of mental illness?

True, the roadtrip trope began with TPATF but I feel like Tangled and Frozen both using it really cemented it, especially since they were the start of Disney's popular CGI films. I definitely agree with you that Elsa is a good representation of mental illness. I've heard lots of people claim her to represent depression or bipolar disorder amongst other illnesses. Of course, the LGBT community has claimed her as well, while others have remarked that they find her asexual. I think a lot of her popularity stemmed from how many people could see themselves in her, so maybe her limited characterization and screentime actually added to her popularity because people could fill in the blanks with their own details. I know I certainly related to her because of my own unhappiness at the time and I know you've told me that she (along with the rest of Frozen) was there for you during your own depression. I think that's why Frozen resonated so much unlike Tangled, WIR, or Big Hero 6.

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Well, Anna's undying devotion is pretty much an archetypical trope that we see in many characters. Just take Woody's devotion to Andy in Toy Story. Yet of course it's unrealistic and as you've said, their time together is not enhanced enough and therefore their final conclusion becomes quite hokey. And let's not forget that besides their plot, who practically is enough of a plot to a story, has the shoehorned element of Anna's triangle with Kristoff and Hans, that practically serves nothing to the story. There's nothing wrong with adding a love interest to the Princesses, but it shouldn't affect the story.

I guess I've never questioned Woody's devotion to Andy because of how genuine that one is based on the time they've spent together. Anna's to Elsa's seemed pretty contrived especially right after she had found a replacement for her in Hans right before. I think we've discussed this before, but I've never cared for Kristoff. I find it hypocritical that Disney tries to point out how Hans was not a practical partner because she had only known him for one day so it couldn't be true love, but they turn around and try to shoehorn Kristoff in that very same role. Maybe they felt seeing young Kristoff in the opening of the film was supposed to establish some lifelong ties to Anna, but that does nothing to cement their relationship.

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True. In that sense, Hunchback starts off as Quasimodo's story, but afterwards morphs into Frollo's lust for Esmeralda's story, which pretty much takes center spot after Hellfire. Quasimodo's arc gets somewhat sidelined until some spots here and there.

Yes, I've gotten the same vibes as you that after Heaven's Light, the film gives Frollo a more central role then with Quasi taking a backseat. Him missing the action at the miller's, a pivotal scene featuring the other main leads, probably contributes to that feeling.

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Lol! Well, Milo nor Kida never kisses at all.

Yeah, Milo and Kida are another atypical pair for Disney in that regard. I don't remember if they even kiss in the sequel.

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Well, to be fair, the beginning of the teaser seemed nice and afterwards the trailer went downhill. Though at least the premise is intriguing, though. I've never been exactly gaga for Chris Pratt, but he can be entertaining at times and he has a lot of charisma.

I really didn't like the suburban homes for all the fantastical characters. It's way too mundane and too closely resembles our world. If mermaids really lived in a neighborhood, they probably would have rivers rather than streets or some sort of canal system. A regular neighborhood, such as the one depicted, wouldn't be practical for them to live in so the world-building doesn't come across as particularly well done. I don't mind Pratt in films but in general, I'm not a fan of him as a person and his voice in the the teaser was really irritating.

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It could be, though. I remember when Brother Bear was titled long ago in the Disney fansites in the late 90's, it was actually called Timber and was going to feature three bears. But perhaps it was just a vague rumor. I know they had various story problems with Brother Bear.

Oh cool, I've never heard that Brother Bear was once referred to as Timber. Honestly that's not a very gripping title, especially for a Disney movie. Brother Bear was a nice title, certainly better than Bears and Timber. Brother Bear and Home on the Range are both films I never bothered to read much about their background and development.

The Great Wall of China is a great way to open up the film and establish Shan Yu's villainy. I really like the instrumental music played during the background of the opening title as the ink creates mountains on watercolor. In fact, I think Mulan's opening act is the best. It's after Mulan leaves to go to war and Mushu and the ancestors pop in that the film loses much of its heart imo, exchanging dramatization for poorly aged jokes and anachronisms.

At least the calligraphy opening is a creative way of opening the film, a variation of the storybook opening that Disney did some variations on through the late Renaissance (the stained glass windows in Beauty and the Beast, the painting in Pocahontas, the Greek vase in Hercules). Though to be fair, since Disney movies are supposed to have a certain consistency and not showing warts and all, I thought it was somewhat funny that it opened with a scene that actually drew some landscapes, which reminded me of the overture in 101 Dalmatians. To be fair, I never went gaga for Mushu, but I didn't dislike him either. Yet due to how he's being a prominent sidekick with a celebrity voice, it's impossible to not consider him as a Genie-knock off. And yes, the comparisons are shallow ones, due to how both Aladdin and Mulan have oriental settings, but Genie's influence on Mushu is quite overt and obvious. But Genie is superior in every single way, as is Donkey from Shrek.

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I completely agree with you about Tiger Lily. The entire Red Indian sequence just wasn't well done and I'm not surprised Return to Neverland scrapped them entirely.

To be honest, I thought it was a pity that it was scrapped from the cheapquel. It would've been nice to see them again.

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Thanks for the information about Shanti's original character. I wonder if people would have liked her more with her earlier characterization.

You're welcome.

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but I really couldn't stand the new take on Kaa. I'm not a Scarlet Johansson fan so maybe that's why, but her voicework was really bland and not evocative at all. She sounded bored while reading her lines, much like Emma Watson in BATB lol.

You know what, nor could I! I used to like Scarlet Johansson when I was younger (we're the same age), but recently I've found her to be monotonic, dour and dull. Therefore I absolutely DREADED her as Kaa and didn't look forward to her. Though to be fair, she was just in one single scene.

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I'm fine with the name Shanti, probably because it's the only name I've ever known her with. I think it suits her. I know back when Disney was planning on making The Emperor's Nightingale set in India, the lead princess was supposed to be named Padma. Perhaps you would prefer a name like that for Shanti?

Perhaps, but I've would've chosen another name, nonetheless.

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Yes, I remember now that Miley's friend was named Mandy. Who was she? Was she one of Miley's background dancers or something? I remember I only used to go on YouTube back in the day to watch Hannah Montana episodes or songs, many of which were linked to her fansites. From there, I found the Miley and Mandy episode. I hadn't seen the Selena/Demi one at the time so I didn't realize Miley and Mandy were making a parody. I got really confused after I saw Selena and Demi's video because of how identical it was in structure and content to Miley and Mandy's. Finally, I read the comments and realized the truth.

Yes, she was one of Miley's background dancers and they eventually became friends, despite that Mandy was older than her. Yes, the video is somewhat edited in a scattered way, so it's not hard to get confused. I remember hearing about this parody, but it took some years before I finally saw it. I remember that I used YouTube to watch Hannah Montana as well.

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True, the roadtrip trope began with TPATF but I feel like Tangled and Frozen both using it really cemented it, especially since they were the start of Disney's popular CGI films. I definitely agree with you that Elsa is a good representation of mental illness. I've heard lots of people claim her to represent depression or bipolar disorder amongst other illnesses. Of course, the LGBT community has claimed her as well, while others have remarked that they find her asexual. I think a lot of her popularity stemmed from how many people could see themselves in her, so maybe her limited characterization and screentime actually added to her popularity because people could fill in the blanks with their own details. I know I certainly related to her sbecause of my own unhappiness at the time and I know you've told me that she (along with the rest of Frozen) was there for you during your own depression. I think that's why Frozen resonated so much unlike Tangled, WIR, or Big Hero 6.

Well, Elsa's limited screentime could be a reason to her popularity, despite that there are various opinions around it. Yet you know how fanboys are, who will always think that her limited presence is enough. Yet I cannot remember seeing so much dedication to a Disney character than Elsa, regardless of how Disney has made several outcasts characters before. And yes, I know that some people like Elsa for shallow reasons (for her ice powers and such), yet I've read that there are some parents who disliked Elsa and rather wanted their children to like Anna, due to how Anna is after all a more active character.Funny that you mention Big Hero 6, since that is also about a sibling relationship. But their dynamic is superior in every single way, since you can see the genuine love they have for each other and their dynamic is enhanced. Therefore it's hard to not feel for Hiro.

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I guess I've never questioned Woody's devotion to Andy because of how genuine that one is based on the time they've spent together. Anna's to Elsa's seemed pretty contrived especially right after she had found a replacement for her in Hans right before.

Fair enough. You've right.

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I think we've discussed this before, but I've never cared for Kristoff. I find it hypocritical that Disney tries to point out how Hans was not a practical partner because she had only known him for one day so it couldn't be true love, but they turn around and try to shoehorn Kristoff in that very same role. Maybe they felt seeing young Kristoff in the opening of the film was supposed to establish some lifelong ties to Anna, but that does nothing to cement their relationship.

I didn't cared for Kristoff neither, mostly due to how he's just another trope loner and his reasons for being so are vaguely explained. Apparently he dislikes people, but his reasons for doing so are sparse. Besides, there's little to his character and he comes across as being simply bland and generic. And yes, I agree with you about your theories.

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Yes, I've gotten the same vibes as you that after Heaven's Light, the film gives Frollo a more central role then with Quasi taking a backseat. Him missing the action at the miller's, a pivotal scene featuring the other main leads, probably contributes to that feeling.

To be fair, Quasi happens to be absent in several scenes and most of them are during the interactions of Esmeralda and Phoebus.

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I really didn't like the suburban homes for all the fantastical characters. It's way too mundane and too closely resembles our world. If mermaids really lived in a neighborhood, they probably would have rivers rather than streets or some sort of canal system. A regular neighborhood, such as the one depicted, wouldn't be practical for them to live in so the world-building doesn't come across as particularly well done. I don't mind Pratt in films but in general, I'm not a fan of him as a person and his voice in the the teaser was really irritating.

I agree that his voice can be irritating at times, but I didn't mind his voice in the trailer for Onward. I liked the fantastical elements, but disliked the mashup of the suburban homes.

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Oh cool, I've never heard that Brother Bear was once referred to as Timber. Honestly that's not a very gripping title, especially for a Disney movie. Brother Bear was a nice title, certainly better than Bears and Timber. Brother Bear and Home on the Range are both films I never bothered to read much about their background and development.

True, but I don't know if the Timber title was just a rumor. I remember that I looked forward to Brother Bear, due to it's North American wilderness setting mixed with Indigenous folklore. Yet I just feel that it came across as rushed at certain spots (I know that it was rushed to fill the Platinum Edition release of The Lion King). I know that it many people thought of it as a Lion King-knockoff due to obvious similarities, but Brother Bear was derivative, nonetheless. Though I know that it has it's fanbase, since it was more traditionally Disney than it's predecessors from the early millenium. Yet I felt that Brother Bear was a wasted mess.

I wonder how the Latina project is going to be like. If it's going to have the same formula as the previous Revival Princess movies. But at least we're getting another Princess movie, which better or for worse, is the cornerstone at the studio more than ever, since Disney is labeled for their Princesses more than ever. And frankly, no matter what you can say about the Princess movies of the Revival era, at least they're steeped in Disney's traditional formula, so I'm still excited for it. Now that Lasseter's gone, perhaps we could see some new tropes?

Now that it's been reported that the tests for Gigantic looked promising, I still find it a pity that it's been cancelled. Though to be fair, I disliked the change of the eleven year old Giant and rather preferred the original outtake.

To be fair, I never went gaga for Mushu, but I didn't dislike him either. Yet due to how he's being a prominent sidekick with a celebrity voice, it's impossible to not consider him as a Genie-knock off. And yes, the comparisons are shallow ones, due to how both Aladdin and Mulan have oriental settings, but Genie's influence on Mushu is quite overt and obvious. But Genie is superior in every single way, as is Donkey from Shrek.

Yes, the 90s films had beautiful openings to their films. That's something else the new films seriously lack, although Moana and Coco did a good job of recreating that type of intro. I never thought about how Mulan's intro is similar to the overture on 101 Dalmatians, but you're quite right! Very astute connection there.

Donkey is hilarious from Shrek and I'm assuming Eddie Murphy was cast in that role because of his Mushu character. What are your feelings behind Mushu being officially cut from the live-action Mulan? In the Mulan thread, there's been several complaints from posters, but I'm quite content with the change. I think it'll make for a stronger film overall.

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To be honest, I thought it was a pity that it was scrapped from the cheapquel. It would've been nice to see them again.

I never really missed the Red Indians in the sequel. I always wanted to see the mermaids again, especially since they only have one sequence in the original film as well. That shouldn't be too surprising as an Ariel fan and since the main reason I used to watch the original Peter Pan was because like Wendy, I wanted to see the mermaids.

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You know what, nor could I! I used to like Scarlet Johansson when I was younger (we're the same age), but recently I've found her to be monotonic, dour and dull. Therefore I absolutely DREADED her as Kaa and didn't look forward to her. Though to be fair, she was just in one single scene.

The animated Kaa is one of the more popular characters from the film and Sterling Holloway gives a superb performance which makes live-action Kaa more of a letdown. I really do believe that ScarJo has only survived this long in Hollywood because of her looks. I've heard that she was actually quite accomplished as an actress when she was younger and starting out, but once she became famous, she's just stopped trying.

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Yes, she was one of Miley's background dancers and they eventually became friends, despite that Mandy was older than her. Yes, the video is somewhat edited in a scattered way, so it's not hard to get confused. I remember hearing about this parody, but it took some years before I finally saw it. I remember that I used YouTube to watch Hannah Montana as well.

I just remember that I kept trying to figure out who this nobody Mandy was supposed to be. I knew she wasn't Mandy Moore who was the only Mandy I knew involved with Disney lol. I remember lots of people thought she would end up appearing in Hannah Montana, even as a guest appearance.

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Well, Elsa's limited screentime could be a reason to her popularity, despite that there are various opinions around it. Yet you know how fanboys are, who will always think that her limited presence is enough. Yet I cannot remember seeing so much dedication to a Disney character than Elsa, regardless of how Disney has made several outcasts characters before. And yes, I know that some people like Elsa for shallow reasons (for her ice powers and such), yet I've read that there are some parents who disliked Elsa and rather wanted their children to like Anna, due to how Anna is after all a more active character.Funny that you mention Big Hero 6, since that is also about a sibling relationship. But their dynamic is superior in every single way, since you can see the genuine love they have for each other and their dynamic is enhanced. Therefore it's hard to not feel for Hiro.

The Elsa fandom might claim that her limited presence is enough but I bet they would freak if Frozen 2 ended up giving her a very small role with Anna and Kristoff dominating the storyline. Sadly, I haven't read any stories about parents wanting their daughters to prefer Anna over Elsa. I just remember reading most parents lamenting how their children love Elsa and how much money they've had to spend on her dress and how sick they are of hearing Let it Go. Even I got tired of hearing it constantly everywhere, which surprised my friends who know I am a huge Disney fan.

I forgot about Big Hero 6 (much like Disney has forgotten/ignored it lol). Yes, that's another great sibling relationship. Even though Tadashi dies early on, you get a sense of the love they share so I agree with you that it was far superior to the sibling dynamic in Frozen.

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I didn't cared for Kristoff neither, mostly due to how he's just another trope loner and his reasons for being so are vaguely explained. Apparently he dislikes people, but his reasons for doing so are sparse. Besides, there's little to his character and he comes across as being simply bland and generic. And yes, I agree with you about your theories.

I'm sure we've discussed this before, but I prefer what I've heard about Kristoff's spiritual predecessor, the character of Bastion in Glen Keane's Rapunzel. At least he was supposed to be a fully formulated character. Thanks for agreeing with my "theory" of sorts. I can't imagine any other reason why they would feel the need to include Kristoff in the opening, other than to further tie him to Anna and Elsa.

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To be fair, Quasi happens to be absent in several scenes and most of them are during the interactions of Esmeralda and Phoebus.

I know In a Place of Miracles got cut in THOND because they felt it was too Esmeralda/Phoebus centric and took the story away from Quasi. I never understood that since the second half of the song is all about Quasi's reaction to them and how the end features him in between them as he's given the chance to put their hands together. It ties to the end of the film where he actually does do that once he's accepted their relationship. And I always liked the scene in the song where he envisions himself as a handsome man dancing with Esmeralda instead of Phoebus. It's quite heartbreaking but something that would have been nice to see visualized on screen. Clopin's comment about Quasi speaking "like a true gypsy" was a nice hint at his origins as well.

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I agree that his voice can be irritating at times, but I didn't mind his voice in the trailer for Onward. I liked the fantastical elements, but disliked the mashup of the suburban homes.

I think the mashup of fantasy with the suburban homes has turned off a lot of people because it's not nearly as novel an idea as Pixar is known for. This feels a lot like The Good Dinosaur and how they thought that the twist of humans living in a world alongside dinosaurs as the advanced and more intelligent species would be enough of a hook for audiences.

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I know that it many people thought of it as a Lion King-knockoff due to obvious similarities, but Brother Bear was derivative, nonetheless. Though I know that it has it's fanbase, since it was more traditionally Disney than it's predecessors from the early millenium. Yet I felt that Brother Bear was a wasted mess.

I honestly never felt any resemblance between The Lion King and Brother Bear. Granted, I was pretty young then so it probably flew over my head, but I'm curious how many other children, who Disney would have been directly marketing to, got those TLK callbacks as well.

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I wonder how the Latina project is going to be like. If it's going to have the same formula as the previous Revival Princess movies. But at least we're getting another Princess movie, which better or for worse, is the cornerstone at the studio more than ever, since Disney is labeled for their Princesses more than ever. And frankly, no matter what you can say about the Princess movies of the Revival era, at least they're steeped in Disney's traditional formula, so I'm still excited for it. Now that Lasseter's gone, perhaps we could see some new tropes?

For me, the new Princess films are more offensive because they like to claim how traditional they are while constantly subverting tradition and making fun of the previous films (Frozen and Moana especially come to mind, and while Brave never openly dissed the prior films, it's clear from the attitudes of those who made it that Brave was meant to perfect the "flawed" princess formula.) That's why I can appreciate films like WIR and Zootopia moreso than Frozen or Moana. I really hope the Lasseter era is over because all the new films seem to be following very closely to his standards.

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Now that it's been reported that the tests for Gigantic looked promising, I still find it a pity that it's been cancelled. Though to be fair, I disliked the change of the eleven year old Giant and rather preferred the original outtake.

The animation in Gigantic might have been beautiful but the constant story revamps and the cancellation prove that the characters and plotline were not gelling. The songs get a lukewarm response as well when they were played so I don't know if I would want the film to be created just for pretty visuals when everything else was so lackluster. The setting and visuals can always be re-appropriated for another more promising film rather than be reduced to a film that nobody likes or ever remembers. By original plotline, do you mean back when there were four friends who were all on an adventure together or something? I wouldn't be surprised if that was overhauled to fit Lasseter's generic buddy comedy road trip type of film.

Yes, the 90s films had beautiful openings to their films. That's something else the new films seriously lack, although Moana and Coco did a good job of recreating that type of intro. I never thought about how Mulan's intro is similar to the overture on 101 Dalmatians, but you're quite right! Very astute connection there.

Thanks. And yes, I agree that the 90's had some very well-done openings. My favorites are the ones from The Rescuers Down Under, The Lion King, Hunchback and Tarzan. And the title credits from Pocahontas are well done, despite that I've never been crazy about Virginia Company itself. Even the opening from Dinosaur is excellent, no matter what could be said about that movie.

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Donkey is hilarious from Shrek and I'm assuming Eddie Murphy was cast in that role because of his Mushu character.

Agreed. Though Donkey could be too much at times, he was still more endearing and likable than Mushu.

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What are your feelings behind Mushu being officially cut from the live-action Mulan? In the Mulan thread, there's been several complaints from posters, but I'm quite content with the change. I think it'll make for a stronger film overall.

Well, I've never been gaga for Mushu, so I don't mind. But to be fair, I wouldn't mind if he was a part of the movie either.

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I never really missed the Red Indians in the sequel. I always wanted to see the mermaids again, especially since they only have one sequence in the original film as well. That shouldn't be too surprising as an Ariel fan and since the main reason I used to watch the original Peter Pan was because like Wendy, I wanted to see the mermaids.

Haha, it's tempting to compare the mermaids in Peter Pan to those in The Little Mermaid, due to the shallow fact of them all being mermaids! Yet there are a couple of them that resembles Ariel. I remember seeing Mermaid prior to Peter Pan in my childhood, though, yet I know there's been some pleas about making the mermaids from Pan their own franchise, despite that we've seen another property in Pixie Hollows (*cough, Tinker Bell, cough*).Speaking of which, I dislike the mermaids from Pan, mostly due to how mean they are to Wendy. She's yearning to see them and they're mean to her, yet never apologizes for it. And they never reappears again to make up for it.

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I really do believe that ScarJo has only survived this long in Hollywood because of her looks. I've heard that she was actually quite accomplished as an actress when she was younger and starting out, but once she became famous, she's just stopped trying.

Well, to be fair, I've never considered her to be a beau, despite that I know there are many who does that.

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The Elsa fandom might claim that her limited presence is enough but I bet they would freak if Frozen 2 ended up giving her a very small role with Anna and Kristoff dominating the storyline. Sadly, I haven't read any stories about parents wanting their daughters to prefer Anna over Elsa. I just remember reading most parents lamenting how their children love Elsa and how much money they've had to spend on her dress and how sick they are of hearing Let it Go. Even I got tired of hearing it constantly everywhere, which surprised my friends who know I am a huge Disney fan.

I was tired of Let it Go, mainly because of mere overexposure of Frozen. But I was never gaga for Frozen, anyways. As for Elsa, I'll hope that she'll get a more pivotal role in the sequel, due to her sheer popularity. Regardless of Frozen coming of the heels of it's Revival predecessors, I read some claims that people looked forward to Elsa due to her being iconic in her own right in the same vain as Tinker Bell or Maleficent. Which is fair enough.

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I forgot about Big Hero 6 (much like Disney has forgotten/ignored it lol). Yes, that's another great sibling relationship. Even though Tadashi dies early on, you get a sense of the love they share so I agree with you that it was far superior to the sibling dynamic in Frozen.

Which makes Hiro and Baymax's relationship even more resonant, due to him being a creation of his late brother. I thought their dynamic was touching and investable. I know several people have compared Big Hero 6 to The Iron Giant, which is after all fair.

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I'm sure we've discussed this before, but I prefer what I've heard about Kristoff's spiritual predecessor, the character of Bastion in Glen Keane's Rapunzel. At least he was supposed to be a fully formulated character. Thanks for agreeing with my "theory" of sorts. I can't imagine any other reason why they would feel the need to include Kristoff in the opening, other than to further tie him to Anna and Elsa.

What's remarkable is that he's tied in the opening to Anna and Elsa, yet he never even mentions it again later on in the movie. And yes, it's easy to label Kristoff as successor of Bastion in the original Rapunzel, but at least Bastion looked superior. In fact, all of the Glen Keane sketches looked good for Tangled.

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I know In a Place of Miracles got cut in THOND because they felt it was too Esmeralda/Phoebus centric and took the story away from Quasi. I never understood that since the second half of the song is all about Quasi's reaction to them and how the end features him in between them as he's given the chance to put their hands together. It ties to the end of the film where he actually does do that once he's accepted their relationship. And I always liked the scene in the song where he envisions himself as a handsome man dancing with Esmeralda instead of Phoebus. It's quite heartbreaking but something that would have been nice to see visualized on screen. Clopin's comment about Quasi speaking "like a true gypsy" was a nice hint at his origins as well.

After listening to the commentaries to the deleted songs on the Laserdisc, I think really the story needed a moment to celebrate the wedding after all the heavy drama. While I think that both As Long As There's a Moon and In a Place of Miracles are fine enough, without being the best songs from the picture, I think both have their cues that would've benefited from being animated. At least In a Place of Miracles had it's own resonance, since Quasi does acknowledge their friendship and sees himself as handsome. And at least As Long As There's a Moon had Quasi almost bringing their hands together, which would've made the ending more resonant. Yet I felt an actual wedding between Esmeralda and Phoebus would be too traditional, since a wedding is a Disney stock trope and Disney were trying to break away from that.

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I think the mashup of fantasy with the suburban homes has turned off a lot of people because it's not nearly as novel an idea as Pixar is known for. This feels a lot like The Good Dinosaur and how they thought that the twist of humans living in a world alongside dinosaurs as the advanced and more intelligent species would be enough of a hook for audiences.

True, but let's hope that Onward is going to be better than The Good Dinosaur, which was a bizarre mess to begin with. I don't know if we've discussed that movie before, but it was just bizarre from beginning to end. Everything to it's jarringly cartoony character designs that didn't mesh with the realistic backgrounds at all, to the mismatch of the premise and to uinteresting characters and pale story, makes the movie utterly bizarre. Yet the naysayers never whined so much about that movie as they did with Cars 2 and Brave.

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I honestly never felt any resemblance between The Lion King and Brother Bear. Granted, I was pretty young then so it probably flew over my head, but I'm curious how many other children, who Disney would have been directly marketing to, got those TLK callbacks as well.

Well, those callbacks are pretty overt and obvious and to be fair, Brother Bear was greenlit after The Lion King's success, so the connection is similar to something more than one. But Brother Bear is a mashup of Pocahontas and Bambi as well, taking obvious cues from both of them.

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For me, the new Princess films are more offensive because they like to claim how traditional they are while constantly subverting tradition and making fun of the previous films (Frozen and Moana especially come to mind, and while Brave never openly dissed the prior films, it's clear from the attitudes of those who made it that Brave was meant to perfect the "flawed" princess formula.) That's why I can appreciate films like WIR and Zootopia moreso than Frozen or Moana. I really hope the Lasseter era is over because all the new films seem to be following very closely to his standards.

Really? Okay. I thought you liked the Princess formula.

To be honest, the Princess comment in Moana hardly made any sense, since Moana wasn't technically a Princess after all. It was too meta. And all the rants about how un-Princessy (yeah, I know it's not an actual word, but nonetheless) Merida was, there was nothing truly innovative about her characterization that broke from the Princess trope. Besides, her conflict was as traditional as it would be: She had to rebel against suitors, anyways.

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The animation in Gigantic might have been beautiful but the constant story revamps and the cancellation prove that the characters and plotline were not gelling. The songs get a lukewarm response as well when they were played so I don't know if I would want the film to be created just for pretty visuals when everything else was so lackluster. The setting and visuals can always be re-appropriated for another more promising film rather than be reduced to a film that nobody likes or ever remembers. By original plotline, do you mean back when there were four friends who were all on an adventure together or something? I wouldn't be surprised if that was overhauled to fit Lasseter's generic buddy comedy road trip type of film.

Yeah, I meant about the four friends. That would've been a nice quadrangle.

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