I was hazed some in marching band. I was a better trombone player when I was in 7th grade than all the high school trombone players. It wasn't too bad though. I probably could have kept my mouth shut and been better off.

I hardly understand the definition of hazing, and after reading your 2 examples, I'm confident I haven't been hazed, and I don't recall ever seeing it personally.

I have a college age son, and this article makes me want to reach out to him to better understand his middle school / high school days.

With that being said, I've been following this story for the past 8 days, and it is an awful experience for Martin. Very sad. To me, it's hard to understand at many levels. I didn't (don't) understand the following:

(1) how a 319lb guy can get bullied -- now I understand it

(2) how the culture within the locker room permitted this type of activity. It must have been visible by many others. That culture of silence is amazing to me.... -- still don't get it. It seems as if there was more than 1 guilty individual.

(3) how the coaches and staff didn't know about it -- I don't believe that they didn't know. It seems to me they may have encouraged it or at least they didn't discourage it.

Bullying seems to be a sign of weakness, not strength.

I look forward to hearing the outcome of this situation and I hope that Martin can be perceived as a strong, strong man who was courageous enough to battle the weak giant.

2017 Goals:

#1: Do what I can do (200+ training days, 200+ aerobic hours).

#2: Race shape (1/2 marathon, 2 half Ironmans, marathon)

#3: Prepare for 2018

mab411

Proboscis Colossus

posted: 11/5/2013 at 12:43 PM

Hmm.

I have some thoughts and experiences to share, but limited time right now. The quickest, most succinct question that comes to mind from reading Tief's write-up (thanks for posting that) and hearing about the Dophins hazing thing is, were (and are) these things that were "traditionally" done to all incoming newbies? Because that's what I've always thought of as hazing, and have always considered there to be varying degrees of: some specific, goofy thing that everyone had to go through when they joined, that they get to turn around and instigate in subsequent years. These examples all just sound like older kids being jerks (for lack of a better school-appropriate term) to the younger/weaker kids.

"God guides us on our journey, but careful with those feet." - David Lee Roth, of all people

First off, I would say there is a difference between Bullying and hazing where hazing is more of a "right of passage". Maybe a fine line in some cases but still, there is a difference.

What happend to the Dolphin player seems to me to be closer related to bullying.

I have very strong opnions on Hazing and they are not in line with what main stream media thinks today.

I have been hazed. I have participated in giving a hazing. I have seen my son go thru a hazing.

My hazings have been painful, embarrassing and frightening. My worst (most intense) was when I was in the army going thru Army Air Assualt school...That's a Dope on a Rope for you military types. The out going class performed the hazing on the incoming class. You knew it was coming but not when.

Another military related was going thru Officer Candidate school after my regualr Army enlistment was up and I joined the National Guard.

High School...The wrestling squad had a long tradition of hazing the freshman. Note the word "had". I consider myself fortunate for having had the opportunity to be initiated.

There were lots of things that went on when I was in High School that do not and could not happen today.

I was in college when the crackdown on hazing was in full swing. Mostly due to multiple alcohol poisoning deaths across the nation in greeklife hazing.

Calling what is happening in so many of these situations "hazing" is bullshit. It is bullying pure and simple.

There was some ritual hazing on our campus that got banned as a blanket zero hazing tolerance. Most of it was benign. Freshmen pledges being required to wear a certain color every day for a month. Boys wearing aprons or skirts to class. The best example of hazing that got banned on our campus was pledges at really the best fraternity had to complete 250(?) hours of community service before becoming active.

But it is pretty clear that since the concept started the vast majority of hazing is just an excuse to bully

I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

"When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

Mab411's got it right: Hazing is a traditional rite of passage that is applied more or less equally to all newcomers. It can be good or bad, depending on what it is an how it's applied. Unfortunately, it can be an attractive staging ground for bullies. Coaches, teachers, adults, and team/club members need to understand the difference, and as leaders, need to have no tolerance for bullying.

In High School I refused to be hazed by the soccer team. And while I was good enough to start, I wasn't good enough to find another way to bond with the rest of the team. My friend who was a lesser player had a better "team" [read: fraternal] experience than I did. I know I missed out on something important, but I don't think I could have done it otherwise.

I was in college when the crackdown on hazing was in full swing. Mostly due to multiple alcohol poisoning deaths across the nation in greeklife hazing.

Calling what is happening in so many of these situations "hazing" is bullshit. It is bullying pure and simple.

There was some ritual hazing on our campus that got banned as a blanket zero hazing tolerance. Most of it was benign. Freshmen pledges being required to wear a certain color every day for a month. Boys wearing aprons or skirts to class. The best example of hazing that got banned on our campus was pledges at really the best fraternity had to complete 250(?) hours of community service before becoming active.

But it is pretty clear that since the concept started the vast majority of hazing is just an excuse to bully

And that to me, the central problem.

To me, the key is the motive of the hazing. If it is to welcome the newcomers by giving them a sense of belonging via shared experience, fine. If not, then it's problematic. That truism, of course, has limits: some behavior is just wrong, no matter what the motive.

Ultimately, I think the coaches need to set the standards here. One of the recent news articles on this topic discussed how Tony Dungy forbid rookie hazing and Marty Schottenheimer set up a culture where the older players mentored the younger ones. If, on the other hand, the coach promotes an outlaw type culture and/or pretends not to notice, then one shouldn't be surprised when such abuses occur.

I was in college when the crackdown on hazing was in full swing. Mostly due to multiple alcohol poisoning deaths across the nation in greeklife hazing.

Calling what is happening in so many of these situations "hazing" is bullshit. It is bullying pure and simple.

There was some ritual hazing on our campus that got banned as a blanket zero hazing tolerance. Most of it was benign. Freshmen pledges being required to wear a certain color every day for a month. Boys wearing aprons or skirts to class. The best example of hazing that got banned on our campus was pledges...

Gasp!!!!!

You're not supposed to call them "pledges!!" That's...that's hazing!

...or so we were told in my band service fraternity about halfway through my college experience. Sounds like we were in college at about the same time.

"God guides us on our journey, but careful with those feet." - David Lee Roth, of all people