Hangin' Tough —

Samsung: We have no intention of settling with Apple

Samsung has been faring far better than HTC in court battles.

While HTC recently announced that it had reached a far-reaching settlement agreement with Apple over smartphone patents, Apple rival Samsung doesn't plan on backing down anytime soon. "We have no such intention" to settle, JK Shin, head of Samsung Electronics' mobile unit, told the AFP on Wednesday.

Meanwhile, Samsung has probably faced the most concerted legal onslaught from Apple over what it perceives to be "blatant copying" of the iPhone and iPad design and functionality for Samsung's Galaxy line of smartphones and tablets. However, Apple's record in courts all over the globe has been spotty at best— the company has taken some lumps in The Netherlands, Germany, Japan, South Korea, and most recently the UK. This is despite a $1 billion judgment handed down by a jury in a US patent lawsuit earlier this year; the court is just beginning to deal with post-trial issues and a likely appeal by Samsung.

Given the record so far, Samsung likely sees no reason to settle anytime soon. $1 billion is no laughing matter, but it's still a small amount relative to the potential profit in the burgeoning mobile device market, most of which is shared between Apple and Samsung.

Apple wanted a thermo-nuclear war and they got one. Apple bit the hand that feeds them. Sammy just recently increased the cost of producing the Ax cpus by 20 percent. Sammy is one of only a handfull of companies that can produce chips/dram/screens at the scale apple requires - and they are doing this while producing their own requirements (GS3, TVs, etc). TSMC, Pegatron, LG, etc just cant produce the volume and quality that Apple needs. Samsung has a lot more leverage than HTC and Apple - the 800 pound gorilla - just realized that they are in a fight with 799 pound gorilla.

I'm not sure we should read anything from this statement. Even if Apple and Samsung are secretly in the midst of serious negotiations to settle their dispute, making a statement that they want to settle after years of fighting would be seen as an admission of weakness and would undermine them at the bargaining table.

I foresee years of litigation and appeals... after which the two sides will settle.

Save everyone the hassle (and the expense), and just settle now.

Why wont anybody think of the techblogs. Think about how many would be fired if this were to happend.

Bloggers who only report on litigation are no better than the lawyers they report on; if putting a bunch of patent troll lawyers on unemployment takes down bloggers writing on their coattails that's an acceptable loss.

Apple wanted a thermo-nuclear war and they got one. Apple bit the hand that feeds them. Sammy just recently increased the cost of producing the Ax cpus by 20 percent. Sammy is one of only a handfull of companies that can produce chips/dram/screens at the scale apple requires - and they are doing this while producing their own requirements (GS3, TVs, etc). TSMC, Pegatron, LG, etc just cant produce the volume and quality that Apple needs. Samsung has a lot more leverage than HTC and Apple - the 800 pound gorilla - just realized that they are in a fight with 799 pound gorilla.

Except apple is beefing up their linear manufacturing process and slowly pushing vendors like Samsung out.

Zero mention of the fact that Judge Koh has been forced into a position where she will either render judgment as a matter of law nullifying the jury award or declare a mistrial in that $1 billion miscarriage.

pretty sure this was actually already on ars a couple of days ago, and it's not as simple as, "Apple was granted a patent for rounded rectangles"; or at least, that sort of statement might be construed as more than what it actually means.

Apple wanted a thermo-nuclear war and they got one. Apple bit the hand that feeds them. Sammy just recently increased the cost of producing the Ax cpus by 20 percent. Sammy is one of only a handfull of companies that can produce chips/dram/screens at the scale apple requires - and they are doing this while producing their own requirements (GS3, TVs, etc). TSMC, Pegatron, LG, etc just cant produce the volume and quality that Apple needs. Samsung has a lot more leverage than HTC and Apple - the 800 pound gorilla - just realized that they are in a fight with 799 pound gorilla.

Except apple is beefing up their linear manufacturing process and slowly pushing vendors like Samsung out.

Yes they are sourcing out different partners and trying to dich Samsung. My point is that none of those guys can produce at the scale and quantity that Samsung does. This will also cause Apple's costs to go up since they had economies of scale with Samsung. It will make a difference to their bottom line.

I never understood why Apple challenged and took Samsung to court. Samsung has always had the upper hand; they are downstream in the supply chain for Apple's products. I guess Apple never thought Samsung would drop some bombs and raise prices...

On a serious note, this is why the patent system is so broken. None of this litigation produces any value to society as a whole and does nothing to encourage "innovation", rather it discourages it to an extent because of the legal risk involved. Software patents and certain hardware patents as well have to go.

I love this attitude. I know it's not much more than posturing, settlement is pretty much always on the table, but it still feels good. No hiding it, ever since Jobs' 'thermonuclear' rant I've had ill-will toward Apple, they just seem petty. Apple likely has reasonable arguments in some of their suits, and if they didn't seem so sue-happy I'd probably not want them to lose so badly.

Apple wanted a thermo-nuclear war and they got one. Apple bit the hand that feeds them. Sammy just recently increased the cost of producing the Ax cpus by 20 percent. Sammy is one of only a handfull of companies that can produce chips/dram/screens at the scale apple requires - and they are doing this while producing their own requirements (GS3, TVs, etc). TSMC, Pegatron, LG, etc just cant produce the volume and quality that Apple needs. Samsung has a lot more leverage than HTC and Apple - the 800 pound gorilla - just realized that they are in a fight with 799 pound gorilla.

I love the fact that people are repeating the 20% increase claim when it has been thoroughly debunked -- by samsung no less.

One reality about litigation is never to believe what anyone says. Nobody is going to say they are ready to settle until the settlement is made. Even then, most times, the actual settlement rmains private. It is publically known that HTC had no problem reaching a settlement with Microsoft. Nor has HTC had any problems with the many computer technology companies that have contributed more to computer technology than Apple and have the patents to prove it. So it is essentially certain that Apple was the major factor in the history of the litigation with HTC and in the willingness to reach a settlement that still allowed HTC to be competitive in the industry. The case with Samsung remains unclear. Much of the litigation with Samsung has involved Apple's "design patents". Apple has a good case for resisting licensing those patents. But, there is still a large question about which of them are really valid. So, it is easy to imagine that some more litigation may be involved in settling that issue. Beyond that it is hard to believe that Samsung and Apple would have a hard time settling if Apple is willing to accept the FRAND temrs that are generally used in the computer industry for licensing technology patents.

Apple wanted a thermo-nuclear war and they got one. Apple bit the hand that feeds them. Sammy just recently increased the cost of producing the Ax cpus by 20 percent. Sammy is one of only a handfull of companies that can produce chips/dram/screens at the scale apple requires - and they are doing this while producing their own requirements (GS3, TVs, etc). TSMC, Pegatron, LG, etc just cant produce the volume and quality that Apple needs. Samsung has a lot more leverage than HTC and Apple - the 800 pound gorilla - just realized that they are in a fight with 799 pound gorilla.

I love the fact that people are repeating the 20% increase claim when it has been thoroughly debunked -- by samsung no less.

Ok, even if they cant increase the cpu cost. The cost of the cpu will go up for apple. TSMC cant supply the volume and quality. Nvidia had problems with TSMC on yields and so will Apple. They have a good thing going with Samsung - especially with volume, quality and pricing - why rock the boat with all these law suits over a round rectangle and such ?

Apple wanted a thermo-nuclear war and they got one. Apple bit the hand that feeds them. Sammy just recently increased the cost of producing the Ax cpus by 20 percent. Sammy is one of only a handfull of companies that can produce chips/dram/screens at the scale apple requires - and they are doing this while producing their own requirements (GS3, TVs, etc). TSMC, Pegatron, LG, etc just cant produce the volume and quality that Apple needs. Samsung has a lot more leverage than HTC and Apple - the 800 pound gorilla - just realized that they are in a fight with 799 pound gorilla.

Hey, I think you have room for 3 or 4 more overblown metaphors in your comment.

pretty sure this was actually already on ars a couple of days ago, and it's not as simple as, "Apple was granted a patent for rounded rectangles"; or at least, that sort of statement might be construed as more than what it actually means.

I don't recall the article here on Ars if there was one. But this really is a case of rounded rectangles. Apparently most people here aren't fans of XDA developers, so try the Verge:

pretty sure this was actually already on ars a couple of days ago, and it's not as simple as, "Apple was granted a patent for rounded rectangles"; or at least, that sort of statement might be construed as more than what it actually means.

I don't recall the article here on Ars if there was one. But this really is a case of rounded rectangles. Apparently most people here aren't fans of XDA developers, so try the Verge:

It's hilarious that Android fans have pushed for a long time for the companies to "settle their differences and compete in the market." But now when the Android proxy in this fight says it doesn't want to settle, the story changes entirely and they don't want the companies to settle.

Just be honest and say that you want whatever will hurt Apple. You don't care about being logical. You don't care about intellectual honesty. You just have an irrational hatred of Apple, so you don't let facts get in the way.

There have been plenty of Apple fans over the years who were just as irrational about Microsoft, so this isn't exclusive to Android fans, but it's certainly making them look like irrational children to watch them change their story as the patent battles play out. And, yes, I know you'll downvote this because it points out something many people don't want to hear.

And good on Sammy for sticking to their guns. At this point, Apple needs Samsung, as others have already pointed out. I wonder if Apple will still go after Sammy whenever they (Apple) have their own manufacturing capabilities for whatever Samsung is providing.

ardent wrote:

Zero mention of the fact that Judge Koh has been forced into a position where she will either render judgment as a matter of law nullifying the jury award or declare a mistrial in that $1 billion miscarriage.

Which is probably the real reason Samsung isn't looking to settle.

But what's research or journalistic integrity?

Can you explain the Judge Koh comment? I'm not sure I understand the two 'options' that are presented.

Also, Chris Foresman and Jacqui Cheng articles are just like most Apple fans; usually full of off-the-cuff fluff, and very personal opinions on things that don't necessarily require them injected into the material.

Apple wanted a thermo-nuclear war and they got one. Apple bit the hand that feeds them. Sammy just recently increased the cost of producing the Ax cpus by 20 percent. Sammy is one of only a handfull of companies that can produce chips/dram/screens at the scale apple requires - and they are doing this while producing their own requirements (GS3, TVs, etc). TSMC, Pegatron, LG, etc just cant produce the volume and quality that Apple needs. Samsung has a lot more leverage than HTC and Apple - the 800 pound gorilla - just realized that they are in a fight with 799 pound gorilla.

Except apple is beefing up their linear manufacturing process and slowly pushing vendors like Samsung out.

Zero mention of the fact that Judge Koh has been forced into a position where she will either render judgment as a matter of law nullifying the jury award or declare a mistrial in that $1 billion miscarriage.

Which is probably the real reason Samsung isn't looking to settle.

But what's research or journalistic integrity?

You're gonna have to back that shit up with some links, son. Near as I can tell ain't no relation twixt what you just said and what we here call reality.

Good on you Samsung. You don't settle with the bully, beat him at his own game. I have no love for both companies, but having Apple to win or settle the litigations (thermal nuclear war) they started is just bad for consumers and tech industry. Fight on Samsung

Apple wanted a thermo-nuclear war and they got one. Apple bit the hand that feeds them. Sammy just recently increased the cost of producing the Ax cpus by 20 percent. Sammy is one of only a handfull of companies that can produce chips/dram/screens at the scale apple requires - and they are doing this while producing their own requirements (GS3, TVs, etc). TSMC, Pegatron, LG, etc just cant produce the volume and quality that Apple needs. Samsung has a lot more leverage than HTC and Apple - the 800 pound gorilla - just realized that they are in a fight with 799 pound gorilla.

Except apple is beefing up their linear manufacturing process and slowly pushing vendors like Samsung out.

Downvoted for posting a fact? Petty, Arsians. Petty.

yeah, i'm certain there was a story either here or slashdot about apple moving towards its own manufacturing in order to rely less on other parties.

Zero mention of the fact that Judge Koh has been forced into a position where she will either render judgment as a matter of law nullifying the jury award or declare a mistrial in that $1 billion miscarriage.

Which is probably the real reason Samsung isn't looking to settle.

But what's research or journalistic integrity?

Can you explain the Judge Koh comment? I'm not sure I understand the two 'options' that are presented.

Also, Chris Foresman and Jacqui Cheng articles are just like most Apple fans; usually full of off-the-cuff fluff, and very personal opinions on things that don't necessarily require them injected into the material.

Oh, I'm aware. I wish Ars would let me ignore Chris' articles, but I saw the title of this one and I knew it would be bad.

Samsung just filed for judgment as a matter of law on...seven? counts. If Judge Koh opts to accept Samsung's requests for JMOL in whole it would trigger a mistrial. If she accepts them piecemail, at the very least it's likely she will grant nullification of the jury award due to serious questions about the sanctity of the process due to the presence of Velvin Hogan. She cannot refuse all of Samsung's requests for JMOL, because Samsung pointed out that she neglected to provide proper jury instructions with regards to determination of infringement of design patents after Apple expended significant effort to confuse the jury as to how those judgments ought to be made (over objections that Koh did not sustain, incidentally). If she refuses to grant JMOL on that (nullifying the jury award by way of the verdict) she would certainly be censured by the Circuit Court. They've already informed her, in polite lawyer speak, that they will censure her if she hands them this mess as it currently stands -- it should be pointed out that this is highly unusual behavior from the Circuit Court, indicating they see significant issues with Koh's handling of this case.

Censure as a federal justice isn't going to get Judge Koh fired; it's just going to kill her career. She will get the worst garbage on the docket, will have no opportunity for advancement, and will have no hope of being hired should she decide she wants to transition back to the private sector. It's like being made Senior Vice President of Stamp Licking.

Ok, even if they cant increase the cpu cost. The cost of the cpu will go up for apple. TSMC cant supply the volume and quality. Nvidia had problems with TSMC on yields and so will Apple. They have a good thing going with Samsung - especially with volume, quality and pricing - why rock the boat with all these law suits over a round rectangle and such ?

Apple has run out of ideas and the competition has caught up and surpassed them at this point, so they turn to litigation because they cant come up with anything fundamentally new.Apple was at the right place at the right time with original iPhone and they were able to greatly capitalize that, no doubt, but just like 3dfx in the 90's. When you are running everything on one idea, eventually you will be replaced just like Nvidia and ATI did with 3Dfx, Goog and Msft will do to APPL.

Apple bit the hand that feeds them. Sammy just recently increased the cost of producing the Ax cpus by 20 percent. Sammy is one of only a handfull of companies that can produce chips/dram/screens at the scale apple requires - and they are doing this while producing their own requirements (GS3, TVs, etc). TSMC, Pegatron, LG, etc just cant produce the volume and quality that Apple needs. Samsung has a lot more leverage than HTC and Apple - the 800 pound gorilla - just realized that they are in a fight with 799 pound gorilla.

Do you have a source for the increase in CPU price? Are you sure the A6 isn't just a more expensive chip to manufacture?

Also, Apple has a history of giving their manufacturers massive loans in order to improve manufacturing capabilities.

I bet if Apple gave LG, say, a $70 billion dollar loan with zero interest on repayments they would quickly be able to manufacture everything Samsung can. Or Apple could just buy LG — they have bought other component companies recently (mostly design ones though, not manufacturing).

Samsung also depends on Apple. If Apple moves elsewhere, and they are, it will hurt Samsung a lot more than any settlement pay outs.