Do you think ET's definition is an extreme, rather than the 'middle way' of no extremes when looking at the ego?

If so, of course it will have to swing counter, before finally settling in the middle

sighclone said: But a sense of being a separate self,

with clear motivations based on concrete goals,
holding firm beliefs about right and wrong,
continually re-asserting "oneself" in opposition to others

is absent.

The bits I've changed to red are not survival in balanced needs, they may be examples of the expression of an unbalanced ego, as discussed by Tolle erring too far to the belief in separate self without recognition of the oneness.

If we remove these (judgemental) bits your statement now reads

...But a sense of a separate self ...is absent.

That which is a reality cannot be absent, one can only be denying, ignorant of, or desensitised to, the reality.
If it is not sensed then something is physically, mentally or emotionally out of kilter with reality, denying the reality of in form separate self, possible to the same degree as an unhealthy ego over-accentuating the separateness and denying the oneness.

If a thing can swing one way, it must be able to swing the other way.

Consciousness is settling in the middle, aware of the possibilities of extremes, but not denying them or desensitising yourself or others to them.

Even conjoined twins know a sense of their separate self in human form that is different to their twin's separate self in human form, and they likely rely on balancing their human survival needs with the needs of an 'other' more than most.

From my observation the Dalai Lama was well aware where he began and ended, and others ended and began, in human form. Therefore the sense of separate self is not absent in a conscious person, if we use him as an example, - but balanced.

Following the 'no sense of separate self' path could lead to illusions of total mental, emotional, and physical boundarylessness, grandeur - narcissism, or selflessness to the extremes of co-dependency and mental and emotional vampirism.

And for those who believed that to be 'enlightenment' or 'consciousness' cult worshipping of the kind where one's wisdom is claimed to be the only truth rather than collective and individual truths of a matter all having validity. Of course it is a falsity of belief that like the fortifying of the ego that Tolle describes to keep yourself individualised, you would need equal energies of distortion to keep that fallacy of no individuality alive too.

Which is probably why cult leaders tend to lead their followers out of form when it all gets too hard to maintain the fallacy, or tell those that see the truth that they just don't get it.

In my experience, there are four selves (see below). There can be a sense of "separateness" in the first three, but that is not Self-relaization, which is the final one. If The DL bumps into me in an elevator, yes there are two separate bodies. If he speaks to us from a stage, there is "him up there and us down here." The middle ground you speak of, and with which I agree completely is a divine paradox -- a "both-and" paradox rather than an "either-or" paradox. It is perhaps most clearly exressed by Tim Freke in "How Long is Now," p 100 ff.: (and elsewhere in this fine book -- a watershed read for me about two years ago.)

Throughout this process I saw myself as "Tim" on a spiritual journey towards enlightenment. Then I had the momentous realization that essentially I'm not a person, and everything changed. I suddenly saw that in the oneness of things, there never was a "Tim" to be enlightened or endarkened. My personal choices seemed unimportant, because there was "no doer." Things were just unfolding naturally of themselves.

The logic of what I was experiencing suggested that separateness was a meaningless fantasy and nothing really mattered. But this just didn't feel right. And when I became a father, my love of my family forced me to acknowledge that my personal life really mattered to me, and no amount of meditation or philosophy could convinve me otherwise.'

That is when I developed the idea of "lucid living."...how I could both wake up to oneness and engage with my everyday life....

Andy

* * * * *

Four Selves

This is a kind of review of my experience and reading, after 40 years of meditation and reading 220 books on nonduality. Mostly it comes from experience.

It certainly doesn’t sound very nondual to say there are really “four selves.” But I think there are, at least for me:

“Sense of Self ” You will wake up tomorrow and recognize yourself as a living body/person. And you will know “who you are” in that relative world. Even if you never heard of Buddha or Eckhart, Ramana or Maharishi. Even if you are a fundamentalist Christian. Even if you are “enlightened,” and passed as such by many gurus and spiritual teachers, and have universities named after you. John Welwood, PhD, counseling psychologist and prolific writer says, in Toward a Psychology of Awakening, “In everyday life, we are … familiar with a part of us that is geared toward worldly function….we have a consistent sense of “I-ness.”…[and later,] “…the continuity of a known, familiar sense of self, the belief that “I am consistently me.”

I want to distinguish this “sense of self,” for the moment, from the ego. The sense of self is that “personal” awareness of the living body/mind in the world. It is very basic. It is the identity who wakes up from sleep and recognizes the room, the body and familiar thoughts in the brain. As well, you remember your life. It is clear you are not “somebody else.” Unlike the “ego” discussed below, this sense of self is not a fiction, and it is not conceptual, it is experienced. It is the primary experience of a “separate self”. It may later become trivial and incidental to “who you are,” but it is not something which will vanish, not to worry!

“The Ego” I think it is useful to emphasize that the ego is an artificial hardening of this sense of self into something which can “choose to take action.” Adyashanti refers to ego as a verb, “Egoing.” Many have spoken of the “I thought.” Others have emphasized that the ego has many components, self-referential thoughts, “ego-states,” an autobiography “understood” to some degree, habits and preferences, structure, content, style and many methods of functioning. Welwood again notes: “Ego, then, is a control structure we develop for purposes of survival and protection.” But ultimately it is an incomplete identity, and, tragically, it masks our real nature and potentiality behind an elaborate belief system, shared by many other egos. It is based on images, memories, habits, cultural imperatives and rituals. It is actually often nourished by introspection, and sometimes changes in appearance and affect as a result of discovery or psychotherapy. The egoic self has endless internal and external relationships, some in harmony, some in conflict. After many years an ego can be as complex as a Gordian knot. And it has an external” self-image,” as well, which may or may not align with the internal one. Psychological stress arises from many sources, both internal and external…the ego has many ”buttons” or triggers which produce a sense of conflict or threat. Awakening is one of them.

It is the egoic self which forms relationships with other people, with society, and often, with God, or “spirituality.” “I am a fine Christian.” “I am a great meditator.” And even “I have an insurmountable problem – beyond help.” Egos fall in love with each other. Yes, of course, there are biological drives at work, too. But egos thrive on stroking. Romantic love can be very intoxicating, even rapturous. And divorces are equally nourishing for the ego. “You will not dishonor me like that, I want a divorce.” The ego is pathologically self-protective.

Regarding love and “stroking,” the ego immediately co-opts the experience of love. Love, authentic compassion, is not a personal event. It is felt, yes, but frequently the experience of love, to the extent that it is felt to be “my love for ___” is a validation of an egoic self-image/belief…perhaps even one recognized as such. “Diana is so beautiful and she loves me; I am fulfilled.” (subtext: “I have finally achieved what I’m supposed to, being loved by a beautiful woman and deserving that.”) Shared romantic love, in each others’ presence is very much felt and very intoxicating. We do loving things for our partner and they appreciate it and tell us, and do loving things for us. But “doing loving things” occurs in much smaller and very natural ways, too – even simply smiling at a stranger. And all those shared moments are noteworthy – do we feel proud or just warm? (There is a big difference.) What is the motivation for loving action? It is compassion, perhaps originating in empathy, perhaps without an identifiable source. It’s natural, it’s part of all of us, and it’s very real by any measure. Moreover, it is a perfume, a backbeat, a melody which plays through all of life, and all forms of self. Awakening simply means that the rhythm and impulse of love penetrates everything you do. And, oddly, part of the stress of remaining “asleep” or unconscious comes from the separation from Self, felt in subtle and various ways throughout our days. Often that “separation stress” comes from disrespect of the needs of our own body. “Do I really really need this?” is a useful question. Authentic “self-love,” is not egoic.

The egoic self is a product of the mind. Eckhart Tolle refers to the ego as a “…false self created by unconscious identification with the mind.” It emerges from a series of thought-streams and images, which have a variety of sources, including genetic predisposition, family-of-origin belief systems and messages, schooling, and life experiences in general. Its hallmark is a continual thought-stream – maybe 60,000 thoughts per day. The ego, aligned so closely with the mind, is uncomfortable with even a brief period of “no thoughts at all.” The empty mind is not a relaxing place for most people…it’s actually scary. Before that shift, it is the only self experienced and is very real, very familiar, very assuring and very assertive. It is fully supported by 95% of society, too. The ego is only false, and seen and felt to be false when an alternative “me” is experienced at sufficient depth and for a sufficient period that it becomes a familiar and comfortable “new me.” As alternative “selves,” (the witness or Brahman, below) arrive, they become the “new normal” over time, and in that passage, the capacity and frequency of watching the autoplilot ego both increase. Some people, however, get bumped very suddenly into the experience of authentic unity. Eckhart Tolle, Susan Segal, Gary Weber, and Jac O’Keeffe are examples. That experience may not be pleasant, without a foundation in the concepts of Advaita or Zen.

But the Gordian knot of ego is actually made of gossamer, quickly cut through by the “breath of the Absolute.” (Mooji) While a functional unit in society, and not something to be hated, it is not our ultimate identity. The person ruled by an ego is the doer, believes it is a doer, and appears to be the master of its life. That condition merits examination – the self-inquiry of “Whence cometh I?” Forms of self-inquiry and the results of that search are a topic for another essay.

The Witness: This is an intermediate state, but far closer to Brahman or Self than the ego. In my usage, it is more than just listening to yourself (which is useful in its own right.) From Nisargadatta’s “I am That” (Chetana, 1992):

Abandon all ideas about yourself and you will find yourself to be the pure witness, beyond all that can happen to the body or the mind. (p. 226)

There is the identity of what you are, and there is the person superimposed on it. All you know is the person. The identity, which is not a person, you do not know, for you never doubted, never asked yourself the crucial question: "Who am I". The identity is the witness of the person, and sadhana consists in shifting the emphasis from the superficial and changeful person to the immutable and ever-present witness. (p. 442)

Discovery of the witness likely varies for each individual. For some it is utterly unplanned and very disorienting. For others, it is a natural result of spiritual practices. Deconstructing an egoic identity built up over decades, fully encouraged by society is unlikely to happen in a flash, but, as mentioned, it can. Recognition of the witness can be uncomfortable or it can be a great relief, depending on the structure, strength and rigidity of a person’s egoic identity.

For me, it was both gradual and sudden. ‘Gradual,’ because 35 years of meditation had prepared the neurophysiological ground, but ‘sudden,’ because all the final veils fell at once. The experience of the witness was at once familiar and new. ‘Familiar,’ because it is our home, and ‘new,’ because I had not been there for a long time.

There is a distinct timelessness to the witness state. It is not so much an “out-of-body” experience as a “nobody” experience. There is just a simple sense of “I am.” And that is a very diffuse identity, not restricted to the body. It is more the experience of “am-ness,” rather than “I am-ness.” And guess what…it is not scary after all, in fact it is very peaceful!

Brahman, Pure Awareness: This condition is one which is full of enigmas and paradoxes when discussed in language. It is a non-mental, or perhaps “trans-mental” experience. The sense of “I am” is replaced completely by “Am-ness.” Any sense of an authentic distinct separate self is completely absent. The ego has become the “personality,” or as David Carse says, “this David thing.” The first self mentioned here, “sense of self” is not so much discarded as seen for what it was: a simple recognition that, in form, there is a separate organism, or as Adyashanti says: “a point of awareness.”

There is a subtle difference between witnessing and pure awareness. The transition from witness to this pure state has to do with the difference between subject and object and the merging of that distinction. The witness witnesses something outside of itself, suggesting duality. But you cannot bite your own tooth.

Pure awareness is the substrate and the totality of all existence. It is the Source of all thoughts, feelings, energy and perception. It is unchangeable, yet contains all that is. It is a refuge yet also ruthless…there is no room for delusion. After a time, it lends a fragrance to all experiences, and that fragrance grows in intensity.

There is no doer in Pure Awareness, there is no one to do anything. I will conclude with words from two others, first, from Gary Weber: “Virtually every day there is a new discovery, a new opening, a new "yes", until that practice completes itself and on "its own", it falls away, and another arises, unsought, to learn within itself, about itself. It is an amazing dance; there is no "after", only "endless enlargement" and more deepening and stilling beyond what was previously imagined possible.”

And finally, from Jean Klein: “You are not the doer, the thinker that rejoices and suffers. Take this for a fact and do not try to be a spectator, to be detached. The fact that you can recall your previous acts proves that you were a witness to them. So above all do not try to be a witness -- this would only be projection, and would keep you in the frame of ideas and expectations. If you accept this, a change will come about within you, probably without your even realizing it at the time it occurs.

The witness is only a crutch to bring you to understand that you are not a doer. Once you are free from doership there will be a change of axis and the energy once directed towards the object will shift to the subject aspect, to the witnessing. In the end all residues of subjectivity dissolve and the witness with them. You discover yourself as that in which the object and subject exist, but you are neither one nor the other. Then there is only living silence.”

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

No matter how many 'selves' you see yourself as having - all of them combined are the essence of you.
Balancing in harmony across and within the many facets of who you really are does not diminish any of the facets.

No matter how you peel or slice an onion, an onion is still an onion.

That is when I developed the idea of "lucid living."...how I could both wake up to oneness and engage with my everyday life....

This ^ is awareness of balancing the self/other needs in form, aware of separateness and oneness, it is indeed lucid living.

Andy, there also is no 'bottom' to come up from, it all coexists in harmony.

My discussions of the four selves emerged on reflection...an act of the mind reflecting on a passage...my passage. But there was a moment of struggle after my first kensho -- I did not understand how to deal with the relative, separate self...what was it, what meaning or purpose did it have? In a way, I knew that "Andy" as an entity had fizzled and been replaced, transcended, forever.

But there he was, bumping along kind of as before -- lots of autopilot behaviors still engaged. In a kind of funny way, it was self-inquiry in reverse: "Who was I?" was the question. Because my personal identification had morphed...actually, it had ended, and I had this big bag of memories and habits and apparent responsibilities to poke at and watch. And that started with the "sense of self" piece. Actually, John Welwood helped me through that. Then, of course, there was the unconscious engine of ego...and the presumptions of glory and achievement it promised and never really delivered. The witness felt new and deep, and Self-realization remains an incomplete refuge...profoundly simple but slippery...easily overlooked by my still-active mind.

Tim Freke pulled them all together for me and validated the paradox I knew I was experiencing.

Andy

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

I have tried to be very honest and very clear about my personal experiences. Not the least because I'm so puffed up about them, but because we are all so fundamentally similar, even in our "walking mask" of our separate selves, and also because Adyashanti's very personal stories of his experiences, in books and interviews were so helpful to me. If I can say one thing about my experiences which reduces stress for someone else, then I am happy. And I have changed my views of some of them, after more experiences, and yes, some reading.

But as Ramama said, there are only different levels of experience, not different levels of Self.

I get all highfalutin about big SELF and Brahman. And I don't apologize for that. But I also clearly recognize my "personality," my separate identity within society (still likes classical music vs. rap, chocolate vs. vanilla, motorcycles, chess, golf, blue vs. red, tranquillity vs. action, books vs. TV, mornings vs. nights - and so on -- a different mix for everyone). That self, however false as seen from Unity Consciousness, is still observable and functional. And that is what Smiiley is speaking of, and Tim Freke, too. The message of nondual writers and teachers is that the limited "separate self" is utterly restricted to form and function in the body, and yes, it will die. But the divine consciousness, the Absolute, the pure awareness within which and from which all those personalities form is infinitely larger and fully accessible. When that is realized, the stresses of 'failure' and 'dysfunction' and 'conflict' in daily life are felt as "pass-throughs." They surface and vaporize -- they just don't stick. So in that sense, the remaining personality is different than the clutching ego which resists and rebels and fights.

Andy

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

But as Ramama said, there are only different levels of experience, not different levels of Self.

ooh, I do like that - let's go deeper -
There are different awareness levels of experiences.
The degree of awareness will dictate the degree of willingness.
The degree of willingness will dictate the degree of fear experienced.
The degree of fear experienced and transcended will raise the level of experience.

There are also different expression levels of the awareness of experience - from that which is privately uttered in fear to self, to that taken out and shared in the light of community, to that sung from the rooftops in the joy of fearless love, to that bubbling joy of oneness felt within that needs no voice to express, but whose power is most resonant and eternally available, no matter the experience of experience.

I just watched the movie the Source Code last night, love it, but I'm waiting for my individual brain to catch up lol!

HI everyone:
As a newcomer, I've really been enjoying the conversations and the feeling of open sharing I sense.
Sighclone mentions Tim Freke's book "How Long is Now," and I perked up because I've often asked
myself just that same question. A 'Look Inside' Freke's book on Amazon doesn't seem to actually
answer that question, so perhaps someone can help.
Sometimes I think of the Here and Now as an infinitely thin slice between the non-existents of past and future, but somewhere I read:

"In neurological terms, the Now is governed by a temporal coherence function spanning about three second. (Pöppel).
Ernst Poeppel is a German psychologist and neuroscientist who was born in 1940. He studied psychology and biology
in Freiburg and Munich, Germany, before finishing his academic education with PhD in 1968 in Innsbruck, Austria.

As a 76-year-old man, I discovered Candice O'Denver's Great Freedom website and talks about 2 - 3 years ago, and her
one-sentence teaching "Short Moments of Awareness/Clarity/Open Intelligence, repeated many times, become continuous"
was the missing piece for the reality jigsaw puzzle I had pieced together over the years via, in chronological order,
Zen, Meister Eckhardt, The Christian Via Negativa, Carl Jung, The Via Positiva with a psychedelic boost, I-Thou bhakti
sun worship, hatha yoga, pranayama, exploring the Master Game with Robert De Ropp for a year or so. More recently
I attended satsangs with avatar David Spero and sat briefly with a local Vipassana group only to discover that I'm quite
noisy in deep meditation that makes it difficult for others to concentrate. This is unfortunate, because I do love riding
'wing' on a group flight. Through all this I've been exploring what a friend says I should call 'The Physiology of Transformative States,'
basically having to do with watching what my body does when I'm 'brief-momenting,' which includes the sighing breath,
tracheal resonance that I equate with the feline purr or human snore (this is where I got into trouble in the Vipassana
group). Several other insights followed and ultimately I decided to put it into something I've named 'The OBEATA
Project,' up on line here: http://www.raysender.com/obeata.html
One piece of writing I found some years back that I really like came from the Dutch Advaita magazine Am1go at: http://www.ods.nl/am1gos/am1gos3/index.html Scroll down Wolter Keers' (1923-1985) page to the second article.
I share it often with those who think psychotherapy/analysis in any of its flavors will help them reach some sort of meaningful
goal (is any goal meaningful?)
Everything I've read that ET has said or written I find very helpful, and that's why I've arrived here!
I do miss the community aspect of the sort I am experiencing on this forum.
Anyway, thank you very much!

Welcome. Yes, a sense of community is a good thing, and, in a virtual sense, that is here. You might consider visiting the Science and Nonduality Conference next year in The Netherlands or San Rafael, CA, website here. The delegates and presenters represent a very wide range of interests, but generally high skillsets and experience in the exploration of consciousness. The DVD set is quite comprehensive, also.

I took the liberty of removing one "l" from your second link (to Amigo 3) because the first one would not function. Walter Keers met Ramana Maharshi and had a gigantic life changing experience in his silent presence. Thank you for the link to his fine comments.

Do not let your "noisiness" in meditation keep you from that practice. It is not a requirement to meditate with other people. Any jerking, shouting, etc. will subside with continued practice of effective meditation. The body/mind needs to clear blockages, and part of that process, for many (myself included) is some form of physical manifestation, especially twitching. You have spent enough time reading. And wondering about the duration of "the Now." At age 76, you deserve to stop all that mental seeking. Yes, Candace O'Denver has good practices. Find a meditation practice which is calming over time. And stay with it. Then allow the Universe to guide you. Grace will arrive, my guess is rather quickly, since you have prepared the way intellectually, and perhaps devotionally, like Keers (bahkti.) Thanks also for the other post from Balsekar in a different thread...I have commented there also.

Andy

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

oh how amazed I am to see this board and how old (relatively speaking) it is, and how some of you have known what it means to "awaken" for so long when I didn't have a clue that such a thing as "reality" existed before. (and be I'm not even particularly new to religious/spiritual/woo-woo stuff). It's like I looked outside and noticed the sky for the first time, only to ask around and find that everyone else lived "knowing" the sky all along!

my short story is I am an "orthodox" Muslim (sorry for all the quotation marks, it's lazy writing I know...) started out more woo-woo (one of the Oregon Rajneeshees as an adolescent if any of you know about that stuff (that's Osho nowadays), and then became a Muslim, had kids, lived life "right" pretty much PRETTY MUCH, mind you for 20 years. I have had flashes of insight that I recognize now (looking back)as a temporary result of trauma/sudden grief (and perhaps temporary because I didn't recognize the feeling!)

Anyway, I've been in a profound and worsening depression for two years, and in desperation looked up depression as a topic on youtube--maybe for treatment ideas, etc, and came across somebody's video about the theory of depression being a symptom of spiritual development/awakening. I'd NEVER heard of this linking depression with the emerging/changing/realization of spirituality or "spiritual crisis". That was the opening of the window. Then I found my first Tolle video (where he explains his awakening, the "Who is the 'I' that I can't live with") and suddenly I "got it".

For me it was and still is a classic V8 moment, you know where you smack yourself upside the head, AMAZED that you didn't see it before. Now(this happened around Thanksgiving) I feel like I'm constantly wondering who else knows this!

Do those of you who have had this experience feel the same? Do you wonder who you can talk to-- who can or does "get it"? Or is it that the majority "gets it" and I've just been reaaaaaaaly lost all this time? I must admit that my strict "letter of the law' religious community might not be a representative sample of the spiritual rainbow of humanity as it were...hee hee..so I'm not sure . Also, do you find the progression to peace and longer moments of presence comes with time/stages, especially for those of us who live in intense interpersonal relationships (not able to sit on a park bench,& etc) (i'm a wife and mom of three (one autistic)?

Welcome MaPrem! The side note first: I visited the "Zorba the Buddha" restaurant and store in 1984 - I live in that area of the US. The experience was odd...lots of 'holier than thou' vibes. Just last year I read a fascinating book titled "Passionate Journeys" by Marion Goldman, a professor of sociology at the University of Oregon, about young women who joined Bhagwan's Rajneeshpuram. If you have not read it, I'm sure it would be very interesting for you...that is if you are not one of the subjects of her study!! I see it is at abebooks.com for about $5 delivered, used.

But as an answer to your other questions 1) my experience was quite shocking. I needed some time to process it, and, fortunately was able to leave my work for a few months. Others' experiences will vary. 2) You may well need some personal time for meditation, "being in Presence" or whatever your practices are. I encourage you to prioritize your life to get some "alone time." Relationships are harder to manage, in a way, after the shift. You would think that they might become easier, since you are now "connected to" Source. The fundmental difference is that you have begun the process of Self-Realization, and know it...wheras most other people in your life have not...they continue to live fully identified as egoic personalities. Adyashanti speaks in his latest book "Falling Into Grace," about awakening (or at least starting the process) being easier than relationships. A number of people "well on the path" have shared relationship challenges with me.

And I encourage you to explore the many fine nondual authors out there. The moon is the same, unchanging. But all these different fingers pointing at it...with different styles and techniques...now there is another kind of rainbow...but this one is full of real light, unlike most religions.

And of course, explore this forum.

Andy

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

Ha. Small world! Zorba the Buddha...long time since I read those words. No I wasn't one of those in the book (too young and I didn't live at the ranch). I read it though. When I was there I guess (again) I was too young to notice the holier than thou vibe--but I'm sure It was there. What a dream (eventual nightmare) that ranch was, huh?!

How many years have you been at this stuff, Sighclone? A few months of no work helped you integrate this new understanding? Was it totally new to you?

THanks for the reminder that I need to set aside some time. Seems obvious but easy to forget again and again, but I'm going to try.

Uh, let's see...I'm 66. I think the first Zen koan I read was in 1966. Started TM in 1972...pretty steady since then. But the TM people left out two important keys: 1) "Me" the great meditator was a distraction and a roadblock, and 2) The vital importance of the Present Moment. After I got those concepts clear, esp. the Present moment, huge gobs of conditioning fell away. Took over a year to re-integrate and accept the residual unwinding process of 62 years of cultural, family and other accretions of egoic life...they still surface and in fact are evident in many relationships. Relationships are the biggest challenge, after a primary clear recognition with potential for permanent realization, from my experience.

Now, however, I spent most of my posts, and other time in the nondual community (editing books mainly) with an interest in people who have had a clear and abiding experience of Self, and are marching/not marching towards full blown Unity Consciousness.

Adysahanti, Tim Freke, Jac O'Keeffe, Rupert Spira, and the many remarkable Skype interviews at batgap.com (Rick Archer's site) will help broaden your imput channels, if you are interested. And hey, I like Osho, too, for sure. He is a primary example of how goofball personalities can still speak a deep truth.

Glad to have you here!

Andy

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

I had a similar experience to yours. A few years back while reading Tolle’s A New Earth, an enormous recognition shook me to my core. I realized for the first time in my life that the roles I believed gave me identity, those of mother wife, daughter, sister etc, that those roles were not who I was. That was the first time ever that I pierced through the veil of unconsciousness. I remember feeling ecstatic, as if I had stumbled upon a wonderful secret and I too wondered how many were privy to it.

I don’t think the majority gets it, not by far. I think we are very very lucky to have had this realization.

I also have a somewhat intense interpersonal relationship with a developmentally delayed daughter and have had phases of sheer anguish and intense ecstasy concerning her condition.

You ask if the progression to peace and longer moments of presence comes with time. I feel it does. Although my initial ‘awakening’ for lack of a better word was very intense and radical, it did not stay that way for long. It soon gave room to a sort of anchoring in the background that was not affected by the chaos in the foreground. It felt as if a different “I” had split from the “I” I always thought myself to be, only that this new I was immune to the deep pain, worrying and anxiety my daughter’s condition had always caused me. I was free from worry and anxiety for the very first time in my life. With the help of my doctor, I tapered off antidepressants and anti-anxiety pills and remain free of those today.

I still allow myself short trips back into unconscious land, but the knowledge gained if you can call it that, never ever leaves us. I sense this journey we have embarked on is irreversible so fasten your seat belt and enjoy the ride

Welcome to this board. I am so glad you shared what you did. Please feel free to PM (private message) me if you feel inclined.