Paul Wheaton's hugelkultur article thread

Travis Philp wrote: I did irrigate this bed once or twice a week with dripline because many of the squash plants and a few of the tomato plants had drooping, wilted leaves on occasion during a 3 week period of no rain and hot temperatures.

Do you think eventually the beds will retain enough water to not need irrigation?

Does anyone build their hugelkultur beds on contour as a swale-ish or leaky dam sort of structure? I would like to slow down run-off in a few drainages and wondered if this might be a way to kill two birds with one stone..? I'm wondering if the hugel structure would be permeable enough to slow down water without really damming it up and blowing out in a big mess...

Not talking a huge water flow, just some ephemeral flows during spring thaw, and perhaps a bit of flow during heavy rainstorms.....in an exceptional snow year with a quick melt event i have seen three or four inches of water running over the surface...in this situation the frost was still in the ground so it wouldn't really function as a swale and might need some kind of safety drain to prevent blow out. I just wondered if anyone has gone down this road??

mukluk McCoy wrote: Does anyone build their hugelkultur beds on contour as a swale-ish or leaky dam sort of structure? I would like to slow down run-off in a few drainages and wondered if this might be a way to kill two birds with one stone..? I'm wondering if the hugel structure would be permeable enough to slow down water without really damming it up and blowing out in a big mess...

Not talking a huge water flow, just some ephemeral flows during spring thaw, and perhaps a bit of flow during heavy rainstorms.....in an exceptional snow year with a quick melt event i have seen three or four inches of water running over the surface...in this situation the frost was still in the ground so it wouldn't really function as a swale and might need some kind of safety drain to prevent blow out. I just wondered if anyone has gone down this road??

mukluk McCoy wrote: Does anyone build their hugelkultur beds on contour as a swale-ish or leaky dam sort of structure? I would like to slow down run-off in a few drainages and wondered if this might be a way to kill two birds with one stone..? I'm wondering if the hugel structure would be permeable enough to slow down water without really damming it up and blowing out in a big mess...

Not talking a huge water flow, just some ephemeral flows during spring thaw, and perhaps a bit of flow during heavy rainstorms.....in an exceptional snow year with a quick melt event i have seen three or four inches of water running over the surface...in this situation the frost was still in the ground so it wouldn't really function as a swale and might need some kind of safety drain to prevent blow out. I just wondered if anyone has gone down this road??

I just started to pile up some wood and brush that I have been scavenging from a friends property. I've been laying it on contour in the hopes to slow the spring runoff. I didn't have time to bury it before the ground froze so I ended up leaving some gaps in the piles so water can flow through in the spring. I get quite a lot of water that flows down my property in the spring and last year it actually scoured out a gully in my lower garden before draining along with a ton of soil to the street culvert and onto a neighbor's field. I swear that the grass on that part of his field grew twice as fast as the rest of it. HA!

I'm thinking/hoping that with the wood and brush cooking down in the ground and being slightly more exposed to the sun in the spring, the "swaglekulture" mound might get enough extra heat to thaw in time to absorb some of that runoff. or at least slow it down enough.

"You may never know what results come of your action, but if you do nothing there will be no result”

Marianne, irrigating the first few years will help tremendously, according to all the reading I've done on the subject. Since your area is naturally arid the preferred method would be to dig trenches up to three feet deep, place your wood elements in the trench, then add compost, manure and top soil. Oh yes, the sod layer goes in there too, grass side down.

Looking through this thread will give you so much information! The photos and videos will help make the process clearer, IMO. I'm ready to tackle several hugelkulture beds in the spring.

There is no such thing as "to dry", while I haven't done in in socal, Holzer did it in the Spanish desert with good results.

I have buried wood beds in my garden which I needed to irrigate during the summer drought here in Texas. I think we got maybe 2 inches of rain during the summer. Yes, it can be "too dry" in my personal experience. If one had the time and inclination to wait for natural rainfall to saturate the bed, one would not need to use irrigation. But in my personal (actual) experience, buried wood beds will need to be irrigated if there is no rain. I expect raised beds (hugelkultur) would need even more irrigation initially.

From listening to the podcast and reading Sepp's book, it seems that the hugelkultur beds should not be exactly on the contour lines but slightly angled down hill so as not to supersaturate the first bed and leave the others dry. This will allow the water to continue to flow, but slow it down in sort of a zig zag motion and not allow it to punch through the dam and cause erosion. It was also mentioned that cold air flows down hill like a cold gel and can be dammed up by the contour line hugelkultur bed. I've been collecting my wood to build hugelkultur beds, listening to podcast and reading, so this does not come from my personal experience, but it seems logical.

Re: Pill bugs

For all of those who live in climates where it freezes in the winter, mulch gardening works very well, but a according to Steve Solomon in California Vegetable Gardening and other books, who has written extensively about gardening in climates where it doesn't freeze over, the mulch beds become a breeding ground for pill bugs and earwigs. In San Diego, it never freezes at lower altitudes and mulch gardens become those pill bug paradises. Perhaps this is true for other Mediterranean type climates?

Hello all. I have completed one Hugel mound while preparing to do two more this spring. Getting a six foot high bed takes a lot of material so I settled with a four footer to start. I'm in northern Montana so I wanted to get them built now, so they can soak up moisture from the winter, that is if it snows. I used birch wood with leaves from maples and old mulch from willow mixed with compost will add a layer of sod once things thaw enough. Planning on planting a mix of salad crops, potatoes, carrots, garlic, tomatoes, and buck wheat.

I know Sepp talks about hugelkultur extending his growing season, but, for us leaving in temperate climates (90-100 degrees here for ~3 months of the year), won't that pile overheat and possibily damage the plants?

I'm trying to find a way to have a composting/heating process in the winter but not in the summer

Phil,
Going through the Texas drought last year I have some of those concerns as well. Think the difference will be in having lots of mulch on top.
If it's as hot as last year will definitely be using more shade cloth.
I'm in the process of adding some more hugel beds from dead tree live oak limbs around my property. Have a dead peach and plum tree. The inside wood has passageways from where carpenter ants burrowed. Also found some larvae. Wondering it I should use this wood in my hugel bed or just throw away. Also have a china berry tree I'm cutting down. Will definitely be throwing that away. Had lots of what appears to be persian clover growing on my lot. That should help out my soil some when I turn it under.

Marianne West

Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Posts: 119
Location: Lemon Grove, CA

5

posted Jan 07, 2012 19:42:34

0

H Ludi Tyler wrote:

jack spirko wrote:

There is no such thing as "to dry", while I haven't done in in socal, Holzer did it in the Spanish desert with good results.

I have buried wood beds in my garden which I needed to irrigate during the summer drought here in Texas. I think we got maybe 2 inches of rain during the summer. Yes, it can be "too dry" in my personal experience. If one had the time and inclination to wait for natural rainfall to saturate the bed, one would not need to use irrigation. But in my personal (actual) experience, buried wood beds will need to be irrigated if there is no rain. I expect raised beds (hugelkultur) would need even more irrigation initially.

Do you think that you needed to irrigate them as much as a 'regular" raised bed? Less? More?

Craig Dobbelyu
pollinator

Joined: Dec 22, 2011
Posts: 1070
Location: Maine (zone 5)

50

posted Jan 07, 2012 20:19:01

0

If you're slowing water that is coming from a source (stream/road run-off) then I can see what you mean. A constant flow of water would eventually overwhelm any system unless you had a lake or oceanfront to drain to. If, on the other hand, you're only catching and keeping the rain water that falls on the land, then I suppose that each square meter of your property would get and equal amount of water put onto it. Allowing water to flow down the land would only mean that more water would end up in the lowest bed instead of the highest. I wonder if supersaturation can really be that much of a problem since gravity should take the "excess" water down through the ground to the next hugelkulture bed below it or into the lower water table. Maybe the exception to this would be during a sudden heavy downpour in an area where the water couldn't readily soak in quickly enough to avoid bursting the bed.

Has anyone had a hugelkulture bed on contour rupture? Has anyone ever had one so wet that it wouldn't grow anything in it? I think a lot of water would have to be present to wreck a well built "H-bed".

Marianne West wrote: Do you think that you needed to irrigate them as much as a 'regular" raised bed? Less? More?

Personally, I wouldn't use raised beds in a dry climate, because they tend to dry out faster. I definitely needed to irrigate my buried wood beds less than the unimproved areas of the garden. In fact those unimproved areas died during the worst of the summer heat and drought no matter how much I watered them, whereas the buried wood beds kept on growing.

For all of those who live in climates where it freezes in the winter, mulch gardening works very well, but a according to Steve Solomon in California Vegetable Gardening and other books, who has written extensively about gardening in climates where it doesn't freeze over, the mulch beds become a breeding ground for pill bugs and earwigs. In San Diego, it never freezes at lower altitudes and mulch gardens become those pill bug paradises. Perhaps this is true for other Mediterranean type climates?

I have insane numbers of pill bugs in my garden but they don't seem to cause much of a problem as long as there is plenty of dead organic material for them to eat. They seem to prefer rotting vegetation to fresh plants.

Marianne West wrote: Do you think that you needed to irrigate them as much as a 'regular" raised bed? Less? More?

Personally, I wouldn't use raised beds in a dry climate, because they tend to dry out faster. I definitely needed to irrigate my buried wood beds less than the unimproved areas of the garden. In fact those unimproved areas died during the worst of the summer heat and drought no matter how much I watered them, whereas the buried wood beds kept on growing.

Do you tihnk it was related to the cooling effect of the moisture underground?

Kari Gunnlaugsson wrote: Does anyone build their hugelkultur beds on contour as a swale-ish or leaky dam sort of structure? I would like to slow down run-off in a few drainages and wondered if this might be a way to kill two birds with one stone..? I'm wondering if the hugel structure would be permeable enough to slow down water without really damming it up and blowing out in a big mess...

Not talking a huge water flow, just some ephemeral flows during spring thaw, and perhaps a bit of flow during heavy rainstorms.....in an exceptional snow year with a quick melt event i have seen three or four inches of water running over the surface...in this situation the frost was still in the ground so it wouldn't really function as a swale and might need some kind of safety drain to prevent blow out. I just wondered if anyone has gone down this road??

I built mine on contour as a swale and drain my gutters into it. Works beautifully, won't ever water it again, unless we have four weeks of drought again and them maybe I'll wish I hadn't directed all the gutters to the bed, maybe save one for my rain barrel.

Kari Gunnlaugsson wrote: Does anyone build their hugelkultur beds on contour as a swale-ish or leaky dam sort of structure? I would like to slow down run-off in a few drainages and wondered if this might be a way to kill two birds with one stone..? I'm wondering if the hugel structure would be permeable enough to slow down water without really damming it up and blowing out in a big mess...

Not talking a huge water flow, just some ephemeral flows during spring thaw, and perhaps a bit of flow during heavy rainstorms.....in an exceptional snow year with a quick melt event i have seen three or four inches of water running over the surface...in this situation the frost was still in the ground so it wouldn't really function as a swale and might need some kind of safety drain to prevent blow out. I just wondered if anyone has gone down this road??

I built mine on contour as a swale and drain my gutters into it. Works beautifully, won't ever water it again, unless we have four weeks of drought again and them maybe I'll wish I hadn't directed all the gutters to the bed, maybe save one for my rain barrel.

David, if you don't mind, roughly where are you located? Do you have any photos?

Travis Philp mentioned in a previous post in 2011 that he had worked with Hugelkultur with hay as the base. I noticed a post in the organic gardening thread some time ago by somebody who had tried the same thing. When I studied the Hugelcultur concept, I thought of the same thing but have never tried it. Has anyone tried it with a round bale? Would it just be too big? Could you just stack square bales 5-6 feet high to get the full benefit of the large pile?

As Paul Wheaton write, Hugelkultur with wood as the base should last 10-20 years. My guess is that a Haygelkultur (my name for the concept) bed would last up to 5 years. Has anybody done Hugelkulture with hay instead of wood for this period of time?

See below for my drawings on this....
Haygelkultur:

with square bales:

Marianne West

Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Posts: 119
Location: Lemon Grove, CA

5

posted Jan 21, 2012 22:22:25

2

I just got gifted a truckload of straw and am in the process of building a hugelbed. It is actually a combination of some wood and lots of straw. It is almost finished and will plant beginning of next week - I'll keep you posted....

I'm starting some square foot gardens this year. I love the idea of huglekultur. I'm wondering if anyone has tried burying wood and doing square foot gardening on top. I can't get this combo idea out of my head. I'd love some input.
Thanks

Jessica Francis wrote:I'm starting some square foot gardens this year. I love the idea of huglekultur. I'm wondering if anyone has tried burying wood and doing square foot gardening on top. I can't get this combo idea out of my head. I'd love some input.
Thanks

Charles Kelm wrote:I wouldn't use either of them. No conifers at all, or eucaplyptus, black locust, honey locust, walnut (I believe), fresh willow - I may be forgetting something.

Why not the honey locust?

We put honey locust towards the bottom of our berms. It seemed the best way to safely dispose of those nasty thorns. Out in the open they can remain uncomposted and dangerous for many years.

David Miller

Joined: Sep 13, 2011
Posts: 262
Location: Harrisonburg, VA

posted Jan 27, 2012 15:43:22

1

I'm currently using a roundbale for Hugelkultur. Not nearly enough material to cover/surround it yet but it is in the pit!

Gerald Benard wrote:Travis Philp mentioned in a previous post in 2011 that he had worked with Hugelkultur with hay as the base. I noticed a post in the organic gardening thread some time ago by somebody who had tried the same thing. When I studied the Hugelcultur concept, I thought of the same thing but have never tried it. Has anyone tried it with a round bale? Would it just be too big? Could you just stack square bales 5-6 feet high to get the full benefit of the large pile?

As Paul Wheaton write, Hugelkultur with wood as the base should last 10-20 years. My guess is that a Haygelkultur (my name for the concept) bed would last up to 5 years. Has anybody done Hugelkulture with hay instead of wood for this period of time?

I'd like to use round bales, and though I have almost a dozen here left over from the previous farmer, I have no way of moving the bales whole, aside from either renting equipment or hiring a neighbor. Either way it wouldn't be worth the cost for the amount of bales I have. I suppose I could unravel them and pile it on but I think I'm going to stick to wood until I feel I've taken enough from our forests here, and use the hay as top mulch. I'll still give the small square bale gardens a try, and I like your idea (Gerald) of stacking several on top of eachother. If I get enough spoiled bales this year, I may give that a try.

Travis; I'm a straw bale builder, hence I'm not excited for the trend of round bales(!) However, the one thing they have going for them is that they roll! This summer it took 4 people to roll a couple up on our trailer, and last week I moved one some 100 meters alone... Even if the ones you have are too wet, you should be able to do it with a vehicle or simple a long stick for leverage and a block below it.

In regards to your drawing; If you choose to do it, I'd suggest digging a good wide ditch for the bale to get a foot or 2 deep into the ground. It will create stability and make it easier to cover.

Thanks for the tips and encouragement Max but I dunno... The nearest bales are at the bottom of a hill, and are so old and water logged that they seem to be twice as heavy as normal. The next closest ones are about 800 feet away, and again, are just as old and waterlogged. We do have a trailer but the sides are fixed and pretty steep to ramp up them.

I'm gonna stick with wood and maybe a bed or two using square bales. We have about 20 acres of deciduous forest and I've only gleaned about 3-4 acres worth of dead wood, and have barely scratched the supply of live trees. (The neurotic in me feels need to mention that I didn't take all the dead wood in those 3-4 acres. I took maybe 40-60% of the volume and left the rest to do what it was designed to do)

Last week I built this hugelkultur bed to scoop up the water coming down a hillside and divert it away from my driveway, which was being slowly washed out. I am excited about this one!!
First I dug out all the sod and made a small berm with some of it to divert the water TOWARD the hugelkultur bed and away from my driveway. I piled the rest of the sod around the downhill slope of the bed. Then dug down another 8-10 inches. I layered in logs about 2 1/2 feet deep and covered them with grass clippings. (It's been a really mild winter here in NW Arkansas - I can mow in January.) Then covered the whole thing with the dirt that I dug out. Whew! I had to get some help from my 16 year old daughter with all that digging. When that was finished, I put rocks around the downhill side, up against all the stacked-up sod. I left crevices between the rocks, since they face south, and am hoping they will be mini-suntraps. I planted peas in the crevices, so we will see. Everybody says that you can't plant peas here in January, but I aim to prove them wrong.

AKA Wilde Hilde
S.Oregon High Mountain Valley 8b
"Ensnar'd in flowers, I fall in the grass."-Marvell

Matt Walker

Joined: Nov 27, 2011
Posts: 193
Location: North Olympic Peninsula

25

posted Jan 29, 2012 23:31:01

0

I would say that if your Arbutus isn't rotting yet and is of decent size, it's too valuable to bury. Personally, I would either use it for firewood myself or sell it as such. It commands an incredibly high price.

So I am starting my swale ditches / hugelkultur beds/ terrace project. I have a steep bank in front of my house that is 250 feet long 20 to 30 feet tall. The soil at the top that I will be terracing is 18-24 inches deep sandy loam little high in acid low in nitrogen, the rest is decomposed granite.
So here is the dilemma, I use the granite for construction hauling out 80 yds tomorrow and back hauling black sticky clay. So I need to start digging. Its a big project and I don't want to mess it up.
The materials I have or have access to.
Top layer sandy loam low N high acid
Black sticky clay high N holds water almost like Bendite
Base decomposed granite leaches water
Unlimited bull pine live and rotted
Madrone live and dead and rotting
Fresh wood chips
Old decomposed wood chips (looks like soil)
Haven't found compost yet
The equipment is on site and it looks like my terraces / swale ditches will be eight feet high and seven to eight feet wide on contour.
I don't want to get It wrong so I am looking for help on getting the rite combination. Any help would be great.

Raine Bradford

Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 43
Location: West Fork, Arkansas

1

posted Jan 31, 2012 11:56:05

0

Craig Doubleyou wrote:

mukluk McCoy wrote: Does anyone build their hugelkultur beds on contour as a swale-ish or leaky dam sort of structure? I would like to slow down run-off in a few drainages and wondered if this might be a way to kill two birds with one stone..? I'm wondering if the hugel structure would be permeable enough to slow down water without really damming it up and blowing out in a big mess...

Not talking a huge water flow, just some ephemeral flows during spring thaw, and perhaps a bit of flow during heavy rainstorms.....in an exceptional snow year with a quick melt event i have seen three or four inches of water running over the surface...in this situation the frost was still in the ground so it wouldn't really function as a swale and might need some kind of safety drain to prevent blow out. I just wondered if anyone has gone down this road??

I just started to pile up some wood and brush that I have been scavenging from a friends property. I've been laying it on contour in the hopes to slow the spring runoff. I didn't have time to bury it before the ground froze so I ended up leaving some gaps in the piles so water can flow through in the spring. I get quite a lot of water that flows down my property in the spring and last year it actually scoured out a gully in my lower garden before draining along with a ton of soil to the street culvert and onto a neighbor's field. I swear that the grass on that part of his field grew twice as fast as the rest of it. HA!

I'm thinking/hoping that with the wood and brush cooking down in the ground and being slightly more exposed to the sun in the spring, the "swaglekulture" mound might get enough extra heat to thaw in time to absorb some of that runoff. or at least slow it down enough.

I built one like this last week (posted pics on this thread a couple days ago) to stop runoff that was washing out my driveway. I am sure that it will keep the water off my driveway, but I got to wondering if maybe a hugelkultur can get TOO much water? As in nutrients being washed away? I guess time will tell. Would love to hear others results.