Debate/Jens: In trad climbing you are not allowed to have the gear or quickdraws in place and it was also like this in the beginning of the sport climbing era. Some ten years ago, you still had to place the draws if you were going to claim an onsight. The devaluation of ethics have continued and now some thinks it is OK to rappel down a route or looking at a video 10 times before a flash attempt.
8a has since 2004 suggested Ethics in a traffic light theme and we have given the first 8c reported onsight a red card since, the climber had previously belayed a friend for many attempts over two days.
8a believes that as soon as you start doing something systematically or unnatural like: Downclimbing practices, Rappelling before flash, Tick marks by a friend before onsight etc it is not a valid ascent and it is a sad fact that some "world record" ascents are on the border line.
When it is a natural part of the game, when you get beta, by mistake, from a friend, a topo or while being lowered it is OK. I also think it is OK to to downclimb once because of wet holds instead of ruining a 30 meter nice feeling onsight attempt?

@ Hummer: I do not know how many years you have been climbing but it was not the practice in France in the mid 80-ies when the sport climbing ethics were established. It might be the practice in your community for some years but it is not have the rules of flash was set up and it is not how the community think it should be.

I think you have some wrong information. Ask a French guy if you don't believe it. I think it only makes sense like this: onsight: NO INFORMATION flash: ANY INFORMATION, but no touching holds. That s a clear distinction. Any other definition would be too fuzzy. (What about the Alzheimer's flash??)

" This means that you can actually bolt a route and then do the First ascent as a flash. That would just be crazy :-)" Why exactly would that be crazy?? " We try to establish rules that are in favour for the climbing community." I think it is in favour for the climbing community if the rules are clear and generally accepted. It is problematic if one person tries to dictate the rules.

The generally accepted rules is that you should not rappel down a route you would like flash. If you check the poll, I am just in favour what most people think. If rappelling would be allowed you would change the climbing scene at the crags.

It's a pity but in my opinion, if you receive info accidentally from your friend, you shouldn't consider it as an on-sight go, specially when it's got to do with a crux.

Kill your partner and go try a different one!! ;-)

The same goes to over information in topos. Someone could get a "valid" on-sight cause he/she owns a super nice guide whilst another one just had the name and the grade and failed in that crux really well explained in that fancy guide... That's not fair. Don't cheat yourself and the community, don't read it!

1. Everybody can of course define what he/she wants. But I think you are wrong when you say it was not allowed "in France in the mid 80-ies". The fact that nearly nobody rapels (or rapeled) down a route in order to flash does not mean that it would not be allowed in principle. 2. It is not clear if you poll refers to onsight or flash. For onsight it is clearly forbidden to rapel down. 3. Your poll can also not just change what was accepted for years. 4. Did you ask any of the old climbers from France?

I have confirmed the ethics before we made the poll. In fact, 8a suggested this forbidden rappel practice in an article in 2004, and it has been published for tree straight years in the 8a yearbook - 20 000 copies distributed every year. And I have never ever heard anybody complain about the article on the web or in the yearbook. It is clear that the poll refers to onsight and flash as it says so in the poll.

Jens - what exactly is this community you keep referring to. Is it representative of the millions of climbers worldwide or is it the 1000 or so people who respond to your polls? Because it is a quite distinct difference. You seem to claim to represent climbers worldwide but you do not. You represent (or even misrepresent) a few thousand at best. So what if you have published something in the year book 3 years on the trot - tree years? Freudian slip about Steve Mc perhaps? - it does not mean you are correct irrespective of whether someone has complained or not. Your polls are a little bit of entertainment but they are so poorly made that they have no statistical or other relevance whatsoever. An example is deleting possible answers to your polls because not enough people have voted. And you, apparently, have a Masters in Statistics. Where can I buy such a degree as clearly it is not something that you have to study for? And when are you going to apologise to the Germans as you promised in Arco?

"I
have confirmed the ethics before we made the poll. In fact, 8a
suggested this forbidden rappel practice in an article in 2004, and it
has been published for tree straight years in the 8a yearbook - 20 000
copies distributed every year." 1. It should not be you who confirms the ethics. It should be me :-) 2. The fact that something is published 20000 times doesnt make it better. It can still be wrong. "And I have never ever heard anybody complain about the article on the web or in the yearbook." Maybe because nobody has read it or because nobody really cares what is written there... At least now I complain. "It is clear that the poll refers to onsight and flash as it says so in the poll." You still don't get me! Onsight and flash are two different things -> two different polls would be logic. Why don't you ask some of the old generation of French climbers about their definition of flash and onsight??

After that, anybody is free to do OR NOT to do !
It's a fucking game, and you can choose hardest rules or easiest !
And because of this, only few guys ar going to rappel in the route !
Is it so hard to understand man ???

8a.nu suggested bla bla bla...
The song remains the same !
8a.nu suggest... and after a while...
8a.nu said bla bla bla...

Reading this thread brings up a couple of issues in my mind. The first relates to Hirsel's last point: flash and onsight are two distinct ascent styles. The first implies no info, the second means you have info, but have not tried the route / problem before (incl. no touching holds, though in bouldering this seems to have become only touching holds within reach from the ground). I've been climbing since 1994 and that seemed to have been the case back then. Although I have to admit that I was not climbing in France back then ... Back then (when I did more sport climbing than I get around to now) a red-point meant practicing the moves and then climbing the route without falling while placing all protection (incl. draws) on lead. If the draws were up already, the ascent was called a pink-point, though the distinction didn't seem to catch on in the magz. The second issue is the contention that the definition of flash given above allows a flash FA by the equipper of a route, and that that is somehow non-sensical. I'd like to point out that it is extremely unlikely that someone bolting a route never touches the holds as he's repelling and choosing bolt locations. So practically speaking, I don't see how someone can bolt and flash a route even with these definitions. It seems the apparent contradiction isn't one. Just some thoughts ...

I don't know what it was like in the old times in France, but I've been climbing for about 19 years and the ethic I learnt for flashing was that you can do whatever except touching the holds. I think it's the ethics here in Spain.

On the other hand, Mo, would you like to watch/participate in a football/basketball, etc. match in which the two teams play with different rules? I don't think so... It'd be unfair at some extent.

8a.nu is not any bible but is doing great with this stuff by pretending clarify it and showing what is correct after a discussion.

@Tony: We are not arguing if it is possible to bolt routes without touching the holds or not.

"Sorry Hummer. I just had to get in on this. Have you ever bolted a route? If you had you would know bolting the route and not touching any of the holds WOULD be impossible."

Yes, I have and usually I touch the holds.
But if you are able to bolt a route without touching the holds, then there is nothing that forbids you to flash it.
The definition of flash is independent of bolting or not, it simply says you should not touch the holds.

Maybe Jens is starting to believe us when we say that: onsight: NO INFORMATION flash: ANY INFORMATION, but not touching holds. He is still wondering why almost no people rapell down the routes. The reason is that it's fucking boring and only few do that. Plus, if you like flash (i dont, i prefer onsight, or redpoint) a friend shouting you the betas from the ground is much more useful than looking at the route from above!

I have been climbing for more than 23 years. I live in the south of Spain. I think it is silly to discuss things that have been so clear since always:
On sight: No information. Flash: ANY kind of information but not touching the holds. What kind of difference can do that you rappel the route or you watch a video? Another issue of GREAT importance is the graciuos new trend of leaving ticks all over the routes. I know it is not a practice of local climbers in the south of Spain, because I have asked all over and all locals are against it, but LOADS of routes in the south of Spain are full of tickmarks. Either there are many liars down here (who would inevitably be caught sooner or later) or it is practice of foreign visitors. You are all very welcome down here, but if you leave tickmarks, then my opportunity of onsighting the route is gone COMPLETELY. If anyone is really convinced that there is no chance he/she can remember the moves of a route he/she is continously trying (as we have all done for years and years) PLEASE try some memory training before the trip or CLEAN THEM OFF before leaving. I see things that really blow my mind off, like several tiks on juggy holds that can easily be seen from the ground, where it is so obvious that there is a hold, or a obvious foot hold surrounded by blank rock marked with a CIRCLE of chalk. I see even ticks of more than 1 cm wide and more than 20 cm long on routes. Where are we going? I am sure that some of them can even have been marked by someone for his friends on sight attempt. Can something be more pathetic???? PLEASE remember that there are many players in this game. Respect is the key. And same goes for cigarretes, by the way! And Jens, relax a little will ya? It's still a game.

Back in 1995 I tried to onsight the route Papaya salad on Ton Sai beach in Thailand. As I got to the crux I realized I was getting seriously pumped and I yelled to my friends on the ground for advice. One told me with absolute certainty to go right hand first to the next - and only - pocket - the other one told me to go left hand first... So I followed the advice (!), climbed the route, made the mistake of claiming an onsight, got slaughtered and lost all credibility. This moment still haunts me. If only I had known the 8a-ethics at the time. My life would have been simplified - and perhaps it would even have made sense...

gheghe @ wigar'n. nice to put things in perspective :) @ nachoanu: 8a doesn't clarify jack. it is the users who try to shed some light on things. hummer, christian, lorenzo, mo: +1 on sight: NO info (including tickmarks, I try to brush as much as I can) flash: ANY info, no touching holds (only starting holds is ok? not everything in reach though, think about sit-down starts in boulders!)

@ All: I guess you can now see buy the votings that most people in the 8a community consider rapelling as cheating. Nevertheless, as always I get a lot of critisism even if I have the same opinions like most of the climbers. It just shows that it is so much more interesting to say negative things in the forum rather than positive :-) I will take away the poll from the first page as soon as there has been 100 votes or so, in order not to focus on this not so important thing.

I have now deleted the poll from the first page as it is not interesting for many I guess. We did only get 98 votes in like 1.5 hours. As you all can see, two thirds have voted for that it is cheating to Rapell before a flash attempt. I am very glad for this result as we might have seen some strange climbers opting for rapelling instead of climbing once going to the crag.

I just want to second the opinion of many in this discussion here, on-sight is NO INFO, flash is ANY INFO but no touching. It was like that in 92 when i started, it still is imo. I don't see the difference in seeing someone else climb, seeing a video over and over and seeing the holds close by without touching. But i never ever did rappel on purpose just to see a route for flash, instead i rather would go for onsight in that situation. my 2c

@ Patrick: This is just my point that as soon as you start doing things systematically just in order to make the flash attempt as easy as possible it is abnormal and in no benefit for yourself or for the community. I mean, the only time I have heard it was on a swedish record 8b flash attempt. If this would be allowed I am sure we would see rappel flash guys all over.

took the poll down because only 98 votes in 1.5 hrs. ok, but look at the time: people in europe have just finished their coffee, and the americans are alle off to bed. how much votes do you expect, seeing most forum-commenters are euro's or americans? totally out of touch man. either you use the results, and leave the poll up, or take it down, and throw the result away because of the small number of replies. statistics forbid you to pick and choose!

Isn't it strange that in this forum Jens is basically the only one that votes for the non-rappeling option, but then in the poll it is 2/3 that vote for the non-rappeling option? Jens, I think we need more sampling. You should put the poll again on the main page.

Most people are not interested in detailed questions and as we already have had the more or less the same question with the same result it is of no interest to continue. It is just normal that you have negative reactions in a forum but it says more about these specific persons rather then the opinion of the community. I guess, we will slowly see more negative votes on the Poll above in the forum.

Bcause here in the forum people were so negative saying that, "It is problematic if one person tries to dictate the rules." It seems like I have an average opinion and this was confirmed by the second poll.

All these "ethic" issues exists just because of 8a.nu competition and of course, rules should be the same... Coming soon, 8a.nu official referee in all crags with video... Sometimes, I feel happy to get older and older as I dislike this way where "free climbing" is going...

There are so many ways of cheating. Another way is to climb scary trad routes with a guy at the top ready to throw down a rope if you would like to bail out. I hav also heard, "I can start with the third pre-clipped, as I know I can reverse from that point if I just worked it" (on an 8b FA). The most common "red cards" would be, I guess, onsight beta and rope drag.

As soon as you start doing things systematically in order to gain advantages which could not be said to the natural way of climbing, I think it is cheating. Thus, having your friend making a video of a route is both not natural and it is deliberate systematic plan of taking advantages of the rules. Talking about the 60 % who does agree with my ethics regarding not allowing rappelling. What should we do about it? I am in favour of saying that rappelling is out and so goes systematically staying up 15 minutes looking from a neighboring route. In the 8a yearbook, we give yellow flag for, "Looking at a the holds from a neighboring route."

Isn't that a systematic way of gaining information?? Or is it 'natural'?

The problem about your definition is that it is not clear. What do you consider as natural?

I think you are mixing flash and onsight. If you want to flash something you can get as much information as you want. That is exactly point that makes the distinction from onsight.
If the two were the same we wouldnt need two names.

I think all the people here in the forum (except you) think that rapelling is ok if you do not touch the holds.

I don't understand why people are voting differently in the poll. Thats interesting.

To me it looks like, that people who have thought about the problem and discuss about it here come to a different conclusion that people that vote.

Why don't you continue a bit with that poll, and let it a couple of days on the main page.

It is better to have a not so clear definition which goes along with the colors of the traffic light system. We do not want any judges but we want the climbers to take that responsibility based on some guidelines. "Natural" things are what goes along with how we normally climb at the crag, regardless if we want fame or not. When flash was invented it was of course based on just information...than some climbers have pushed it in order to get advantages within "the system". We should not support that kind of thinking. We have over the years seen some bad examples of trespassing the rules. The thing I have seen over years is that it is just people who want to criticize who comments. We should also consider that also based on most of the guys voting, they have probably not done any rappelling. If we were to officially say it would be OK, you would see a big difference at the crags. To focus on rappelling down is just a stupid thing for a climber that should be focusing on movements upwards ;-)

Routes, crags and country are different.
Sometimes, it's more dangerous to start on the second, sometimes on the third...
Sometimes, you can go up on a boulder or a shoulder to watch the route you want to flash, sometimes it's impossible to see the entire route for an onsight... Right ?
This is some points to compare with the competition, where everybody is egual!
But, for you Jens, and your "report" of some "world record"... it could be a difference, and you are trying to make all style as a "standard"... ISO8a.nu

You know, I work in a laboratory, using process, method and working how to improve this methods.
When we find something good, it means that this way to give results are possible EVERYWHERE in the world. If one or two criterias can be wrong, the method is REJECTED !!

Outdoor climbing must not be lead by "statement" "speculation" and "opinion" from one guy... and his statistics or chipped polls

Look at this video...
Gabor and Magnus !
What about the start... top rope ?
Red card ?
(i'm just thinking to somebody wanted to compare with soccer/football, and what about the goal from Maradona, with his hand, valid or not in the history ?)
Have fun...
http://www.facebook.com/inbox/?ref=mb#/video/video.php?v=1196718073411&ref=nf

And i agree with hummer about rules.
The more it's simple the better it is...
And it's very simple as it is now !
Not necessary to talk for a decade.

Strange, I am arguing with one guy who can only accept a clear definition and one guy who does not want any definitions. I am squeezed in the middle from two extreme opinions. I suggest Mö and Hummer will continue to discusses ;-) It is Hummer who wants an ISO standard not me...

I am on my way to South Africa in two weeks. But tomorrow it will be sunny so we are going out. We actually climb all year around....when it is sunny. So Mö and Hummer: How many times have you rappelled down for inspection before doing a flash attempt? How many times have you seen other doing it? By the way, I put the Poll up on the main page again. When it started it was 59 % voting for No.

There is a very clear definition for onsight: NO INFORMATION, except what you see with your own eyes from the ground.

There is a clear definition of redpoint (or pink point):
you can try as often you want, but one time you have to climb the route WITHOUT PUTTING WEIGHT ON THE BELAY POINTS.

WHY NOT HAVE A CLEAR DEFINITION FOR FLASH?

The game of flash is trying to gather some information ("systematically" or not) of the route (without touching the holds) and try to climb it first try.
How you gather information is up to you, as long as you don't touch the holds.
You can spend hours rapelling down the route, or you might just have seen somebody in the route doing a couple of moves. You might have seen video and forgotten everything, but still you can only flash the route but not onsight it anymore.

You can like that game or not (many people prefer onsight) but thats it.

You, instead, are trying to say that flash is a bad game and only in case you have gotten some information by error you should go for a flash.

I still don't understand why you refuse to ask some climbers from the older generation how it was defined in the beginning.

LOL at post above again: onsight: NO INFORMATION flash: ANY INFORMATION, but no touching holds. guys, forget it. you are trying to discuss, while Jens is "arguing". Would you care if I told, that flash is invalid if you have TWO friends shouting out beta? I don't think so. if there is a guy who gives me red cards, i dont give a F. everoen who has his own head does'nt. NOBODY takes 8a.nu seriously anymore. Let the boy live in his imaginary kingdom (population -169) :D discussing with king is the same as discussing with five yar old girl about which barbie is prettier. THERE IS NO POINT

" I guess, this shows that the community have the same opinion as I have. "
As the people thought the earth was flat ??

You are so fool with you way to show polls...
Deleted it when you want, add it sometimes, decide to remove...
??? what a fuck it means ?
Is it a community way to ask questions ?
A poll is a poll, as it is !

"I
have deleted it again, as it has just increased to 63 %. I guess, this
shows that the community have the same opinion as I have." It just shows that 63% of the people didn't think about the problem and don't know the original definition of flash. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So what is your definition then? Only "naturally" acquired information? Everything, but rapelling? Video is OK but only if do not watch it in a systematic way? Is rapelling down the neighboring route OK or not? Do you have to ask Jens and he decides? Do you have to make a poll to know if your flash ascent is valid? At least you have to admit that there is a clear definition that exists since at least 25 years, and that 38% of the people know about this one. But you should not try to delude people and say that your "definition" is the only one.

quick websearch yields no instance (except 8a) where flash is defined differently then: first try ascent WITH beta. that's the evidence backing our side of the discussion. and while this may not be the place: if you present a theory, you must be the one who supports that with (well-referenced, scientifically valid) arguments. as long as you don't, the critiques of that theory will be in the right. especially when they show enough evidence of the contrary.

More than 60 % of the community says it is cheating to rappel before a Flash. On the main page, the result is like 66 % and in the critical forum = 55 %. Some of you guys say that we should tell the majority they are wrong. I just want to stick with the general opinion.

no, you want to stick with your opinion. if I run a poll under my conditions, which will upgrade my non-repeated secret project to 9A, that does not make it true. I could make more politically incorrect analogies, but I guess you all know what kind of shit-storm that will lead to.. if majority rules applied, pedophiles would most likely be lynched. however, these are not the rules (ok, there. I did it) you mention (@3) something which you have not substantiated. it is this kind of wild claim that almost forces people to take a stand against your 'theories'. I have provided as much proof as I deem necessary to debunk your claim of the definition of flash, and support the one brought forward by more than one commenter. so (and respond to the question, do not restate any of the empty comments above), where did you find your definition of flash?

Excuse me Jens, but your arguments are really funny. I'm very interested in how you define a FLASH? Ok, i understand your oppinion that you must not rappel down the same route, what about the neighbouring one? How close can it be? You must not watch a video systematicaly, OK. Can you watch it twice, if you by chance like it? Or may be even worse, watch it three times? I'm sorry Jens, but this time I must aree with the ''renegades''. If you want have rules (and as i know you, you absolutelly love rulles), they must be clear, otherwise there is no point in having them! I'll allready answer to your usual questions: I climb for 10 years and I have never rappeled down the route and than claimed it an on sight. So please don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that you have to rappel or watch the movie 1000 times, I agree it's not natural but silly, but it's still inside the FLASH definition if you do so.

I do not want a bible of clear rules...like it seems most of the guys in the forum want. I want some recommendations and then a clear statement that you should not do unnatural things systematically to get advantages. If the majority say that consider it is cheating to rappel before a flash...do you just think we should ignore what the majority thinks?

- You are not able to understand that the game of flash is to receive information and then climb. You want to tell us that getting information in a systematic way is bad. But exactly this means flash. - And you don't understand the difference between a rule and what people do in practice. Let me explain this to you: It is definitely allowed to tye a hot dog around your knee while doing a redpoint ascent. However, have you ever seen somebody climbing with a hot dog around his knee??

So what should we do about the 60 % who think rappelling is cheating...especially since maybe 35 % of the rest never does it? If we were to go out with this, maybe 20 % would start doing it. Do we want that? I think it seems like you do not understand that the majority does not agree with you. It is like a political party says, "We claim that we won and from now on, we will be in charge in this territory". I just have the same opinion as the majority!

And what are we going to do with the 40% that think flash just means: ANY INFORMATION, except touching holds?? I think it doesn't matter too much who has the majority in this poll. People might also be mislead by your statements in yearbooks etc., they might be as fuzzy as you and mix onsight and flash. What matters is the idea behind such an invention. You and the most of the people don't get this idea. Again: the idea is to receive information and then climb! How you get information is up to you. You dont have to rapel! Is this really so difficult? It is kind of funny whenever you put the poll from the main page the % for the 2nd option increases. Maybe this shows that the people who are actually reading the discussing are voting for the 2nd option.

As always... if not, you change the poll after some hours or when the results matches with your opinion !
I call it demagogy !
As you just want to be on the "best side" !
To be loved by the community as the one who knows all the best rules for the poor ignorant guys...
Pathetic.

Jens "If we were to go out with this, maybe 20 % would start doing it. Do we want that?"

No, as 95.4% are not ready to do that... just because they are not so interested to waste time for it...
You know Jens, it's allowed to walk in a street only on your knees. But only people interested in Guiness Book are able to do it...
8a is going this way or worth, tabloids.

Jens - are you deliberately being an idiot or is it accidental. And if you don't understand the many meanings of idiot then perhaps you fulfil more than one of these meanings. (Hint: idiot in this sense means acting stupidly which I think is a fair and not insulting description about you comments in this thread and lots of others) And when are you going to publish your apology to the Germans that you promised in Arco? Or are you going to be an idiot about this as well?

You know what? I am not so sure it will guaranty the send, but next time I go climbing I will definitely do the rappelling thing.....and why not? I will try the hot dog-on-my-knee thing too. Not a bad idea to have a snack on a long route..

I have done some internet research about the definition of flash. The definitions that I found are always more or less the same: http://www.escaladegym.com/page.aspx?id=74
Flash (v.)
Completing a problem on the first try with no falls, but with beta.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_climbing An ascent is considered a flash if climbed the first try, without falls but with some prior knowledge such as, but not limited to, watching another person climb it or discussing it with another climber. http://www.rock-climbing-for-life.com/rock_climbing_glossary.html Flash: to climb a route on the first try without ever having touched it, but with the aid of beta http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/rock+climbing+glossary.html FlashA red point ascent (first try on lead) utilizing prior inspection, information or beta from others. http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Climbing/Climbing_Dictionary_528.html
Betaflash - n. a clean first ascent with no falls after having received
beta. (This contrasts an onsightflash, a clean ascent with no prior
knowledge of the route. 2. (vb.) to perform a betaflash.
Nowhere is it stated that one is not allowed to rapel! In one article they say that in flash it is allowed to "Gather[ing] as much previous information about a route as possible, or even having a stronger climber supply running beta". http://rockclimbing.suite101.com/article.cfm/rock_climbing_skills_improve_onsight_climbing The climbing flash can serve as a stepping stone to improve on-sight climbing ability. If a climber wants to break into a new on-sight grade, such as from 5.10d to 5.11a, its helpful to first flash some 11as. Gathering as much previous information about a route as possible, or even having a stronger climber supply running beta, can help build a climbers confidence in his or her ability to climb a harder grade first try. But the best I found on a French web site (probably not from the mid-80ies): http://eps.ac-rouen.fr/pedagogie/didaaps/escalade/glossaire.htm Flash : c'est réaliser une voie pour la première fois en l'enchaînant, mais en ayant au préalable vu un grimpeur la réaliser, ou en ayant fait soi-même une "visite " en rappel ou moulinette. Translated: to realize a route for the first time without falling, but having seen sombody before climbing it or having done oneself a "visit" by rappeling or top-roping.

I guess, the reason why rappel is not mentioned is because most people like in the 8a poll...do think that is cheating and that it is just the normal behavior. You do not have to state rules that almost nobody violates.

so Jens. let's get practical. in your opinion if i go to gorges du verdon and i want to flash something, i have to rappel on another line 'til some ledge and then traverse. of course those routes whose first pitch starts in the middle of the wall are by definition un-flashable, according to you. any Verdon locals wanting to contribute to this subject? :p

" I
guess, the reason why rappel is not mentioned is because most people
like in the 8a poll...do think that is cheating and that it is just the
normal behavior. You do not have to state rules that almost nobody
violates." and this is why we (the commenters above) keep coming back. this is all bullcrap. the reason why rappel is not mentioned, is because it is allowed. and furthermore, it is mentioned in the last link provided by hummer (thnx man, the copypaste is a nice elaboration of my websearch. i'm such a lazy bastard). we already established that 'the majority' does not have a final say so and isn't necessarily in possesion of the right answer. apparently, rappeling is allowed, and you would behave like an adult if you provided us with an external reference stating the opposite; alternatively, you could yield the argument. that would also be a very mature way to react. it's not in the rules, and people do rappel down. and a third of people isn't 'almost nobody'. the reason why you don't see many people doing it, is because of time, a busy crag or motivation. I have still not seen one argument that holds, upon which I would feel guilty about recording a flash where I saw the holds up close (rappeling or watching a video. I love to do that, bleau.info yay!). so I don't feel guilty when I do. green card!

Good point. If my plan was to flash one of these routes I would have looked at the beautiful scenary in stead of doing a 20 minutes rappel in order to systematically an unnatural produced advantages for me. Further more, your rule says you are not allowed to touch the holds and as it is vertical you will most certain "touch" the wall which you just might use as holds. How would you solve the problem of starting rappeling without touching the top?

i don't understand you...would one of you do a rappel on the route just to be able after that to say you did it flash ? Where is the fun of climbing then ? Just climb it and if you are good enought you will claim as a flash (let's say you just saw somebody before you climbing it)...sorry but a person which goes up just to do a rappel just to analyse i think for that one it is most important the points to get on 8a.nu :)))) i don't see any other reason.... on the other hand when you rappel down maybe you touch the wall (high probability with the feets)...so you touched the route !!! could be there is a hold (for feet or leg)....so it is a high probability that doing a rappel your chances to do flash are gone... @to all maniacs: you should buy a flying machine to be able to analyse the routes...and then scream out that you did a flash....

'' I
guess, the reason why rappel is not mentioned is because most people
like in the 8a poll...do think that is cheating and that it is just the
normal behavior. You do not have to state rules that almost nobody
violates .'' And that's exactly why, you don't have to forbid rappeling. You are cought Jens

@ Joza: It seems you missed, "almost nobody violates" I have heard about three cases where actually climbers trying to breake a national record have rappelled the route. For me this has nothing to do with climbing upwards and it is just done as to score. Two of the guys did at the time not have a scorecard. @ ChristiT: Thanks :-)

impossible is not the same as forbidden, you incredible [expletive]. I never stated vertical, you had to find a situation where you could apply an invalid argument so you can avoid answering a question. like you always do..... how about a close neighbouring route (so you won't touch holds. stupid argument avoided. ha!). according to you that should be forbidden. I say it is not, together with a lot of people in this here community and every definition we could find on the internet (I exclude 8a, as it is your opinion, and the subject of this discussion). you still haven't cited any source. and I would look at the scenery too. just so we can avoid that.

It should be forbidden to do unnatural things systematically like rappelling down in order to gain advantages and then report to a news paper that I have made a new world record, flashing 9a. This is not the name of the flashing game. It is more important to use common sense than to follow strict rules as there are no such things in climbing...just recommendations. And if you use the strict definition of "not touching" as a rule, you could never flash a route in verdon even if you were to look at the scenary as you are touching the holds on the top, while starting the rappel.

I respect people who watch videos and then try to flash a boulder or a route. I do not respect climbers who rappel down as a deliberate act in order to systematically get any information in order to make the flash as easy as possible and then go around and brag about it. I question these climbers ethical moral!

Quite a clear statement from Jens. He will respect you only if you share his opinions. Otherwise he will not ... Impressive !! Why bother arguing ? No discussion can aver lead to anything with this kind of behaviour.

Next time I want to flash a route I will do the route next to it, sit on every bolt and look across. When I get to the chain I will lean across and get lowered down the route that I want to flash (without touching holds of course). Then Jens will respect me as I haven't rappelled. And respect from Jens is all that I crave in life. Or have I been un-naturally systematic?

@ Graeme: I consider your suggestion as an unnatural part of climbing and thus I would not respect anybody doing so and then brag about the ascent.
@ Hummer: Climbing upwards as you are doing while you redpoint is a natural part of climbing and should not be compared as systematically focus on rappeling down.

@Jens: 1. In your eyes is it cheating if have rappeled down a route before redpointing it? 2. I don't understand why you have to disrespect people that rappel before they flash. They are doing nothing bad to other people. As long as they don't lie about it (e.g. pretend they did an onsight etc...) you should just let them do what they enjoy not judge them.

@ smejkal & Hummer: I have already answered the same question and it relates to do unnatural things systematically. We are climbers that should focus on climbing upwards and not just walk on the border line of the ethics. Further more, if you rappel down you are most likely touching the rock and that you are saying it is not OK? Please explain yourself on this subject.

"Further
more, if you rappel down you are most likely touching the rock and that
you are saying it is not OK? Please explain yourself on this subject." Most likely but not necessarily. It is not too hard to rappel down without touch ing the holds. Now I explain myself: If you rappel and touch the holds you can not flash it anymore. If you do not touch the holds you can flash it. Now please answer this question with yes or no: In your eyes is it cheating if have rappeled down a route before redpointing it?

This idea of "unnatural" being bad when it comes to climbing is problematic. Please explain whether the below activities are natural or unnatural: Climbing with a dynamic rope Wearing tight fitting shoes with sticky rubber Using Chalk Clipping bolts that have been drilled into the rock Being belayed Cleaning loose rock off of climbs The list goes on If you do want to record a natural assent, flash, redpoint or onsight, I think you would have to abstain from all artificial gear, including shoes, and climb naked. I think you would be hard pressed to show how sport climbing is natural. For my part I have never rapelled a route in order to flash it, and I don't ever plan to, but I really don't see any difference between doing this and watching a video for beta. I do think that the definition as stated of: Onsight=no information Flash: any information but no touching holds is the best. If you start bringing in other guidelines it only muddles things. It also brings to light the big difference between the two, and gives that much more credibility to the onsight which isn't a bad thing.

Jens - your response to smejkal & Hummer is verging on fucking rude and arrogant, please have the decency to answer them properly - in particular please take time to answer smejkal as he/she seems new to our little game.

guys, this online 100 post massacre is just crazy. theres no composed and fixed set of rules on flash, os, etc at rocks, unlike at comps. rockclimbing, as its roots are deeply unformal, and basically society-denying, nomadic, and anarchic, has always been so much astray from any laws, logic, numbers, etc. one can argue on relevance of smth, on the grounds of something. as far as its no grounds, everyone may say he is just right. its crazy. write a "climbing constitution", approve it, acknowledge it, implement it, and then things are definate

@svet: you might be right, thats really going a bit too far. Anyways, it is not about a "climbing constitution". I just don't like when people who have now idea just put up new rules and ignore the existing vocabulary. Jens' definition of flash is just his own invention. Furthermore he does not respect you if you don't climb the way he does. I think that is really sad, especially for the 'founder of 8a'. I say goodbye for now or better for ever, because this does not lead anywhere.

@ hummer: It is not my own invention. It is not a new rule. It is the opinion of the majority. Further more, as you say touching is not OK, that means in most cases that you can not rappel...if you do not want to act like a clown.

"@ hummer: It is not my own invention. It is not a new rule. It is the opinion of the majority." Well, I don't know where you got this definition then or who invented it. I am climbing for 20 years and I have never heard that rappeling should not be allowed. It is the first time here that I hear about this rule. And it does not make sense because of the many reasons that are discussed above (e.g. a video can provide you the same or even more information). And you clearly get the whole idea of flash wrong. But what can we do, if you are not willing to do some research, if you don't even read what is posted above and if you don't want to ask other people then don't do it. You don't even try understand our arguments. You are allowed to believe that in the mid eighties flash was defined as 'not do any unnatural things'. I am just sorry for the readership... Cheers

How is it possible to rappel a route without touching the rock. I mean, to rappel, means that you put the rope in the anchor or from a tree and then rappel down. It might be that in the community of Mö and Hummer it has been allowed to rappel down including touching the rock...but in most places in the world, this do not seem to be the case, in order to claim a flash.

One of my many questions was :
231 votes from 28000 members...
Is it a majority ??

Jens : "How is it possible to rappel a route without touching the rock."
Tom et je ris (8b+) in Verdon ?!?
And it makes a huge difference between touching rock when going down and touching holds with hands...
Are you sure Jens, that touching footholds with running shoes, on the rope, can help you ???
Be serious !
From how many years you climb ?
What is your own record ?

"How
is it possible to rappel a route without touching the rock. I mean, to
rappel, means that you put the rope in the anchor or from a tree and
then rappel down." If I would show you one example where I rappel down a route without touching the holds would you change your opinion? It is easy to rappel down a route without touching it. Some routes are so overhanging that you are not able to touch anything. In most cases you can probably just use the anchor of the neighboring route and rappel down just next to your route. Then you are sure not to touch anything. "It might be that in the community of Mö and
Hummer" It is not only Mö and me. For example also your friend Nacharon, and many more in this forum (basically everybody) share this opinion. Most people here, that switch on their brain come to the conclusion that it does not make sense to exclude rappeling if your are allowed to watch videos. Did it ever come up to your mind that you might got something wrong? In your world does this possibility exist? "it has been allowed to rappel down including touching" How many times did we state that it is NOT allowed to touch the holds? I don't know if you do this on purpose or if you are just unable to read. "the
rock...but in most places in the world, this do not seem to be the
case, in order to claim a flash." If you and your room in Sweden is 'most places in the world', then you might be right.

@ Mö: 60 % of the people voting = the majority think rappelling before a flash ascent is not OK. @ Mö & Hummer: It seems like in most of the cases you agree that once rappelling you normally touch the rock/holds. Now you start to saying that you can check from the neighbouring routes. We are not discussing this, but just for your information, 8a gives yellow card for looking from a neighbouring route. In other words, we say that it is possible.

...and even if, 8a.nu give a red card...
Means that it's also possible, no ??
If not, what do you do ? Let me know...
How do you check the scorecard about this ?
And do you check also for 6a/6a+ FA or 6b/+ flash ?

60% of community members or 60% of people involved in voting ?

Jens, do you think that the most beautiful girl in the world is... Miss Universe ?
I'm not sure !
And you ?

The fun here, is you can ask 100 questions and only get 5 answers...
5% !!!

Look Jens: -we don't need to discuss how probable it is to touch holds when you rappel down a route. - we don't need red, yellow or green cards We just need the simple rule, like it always was: flash- any information but no touching holds. With this simple rule, by telling me honestly how you climbed your route, I can immediately tell if it was flash or not.

Onsight: First try, no beta Flash: First try, all beta, but not touching (i.e. trying/inspecting) holds Simple as that. Therefore, rapelling is technically valid. Please note that there is a fundamental difference between touching the rock while rapelling and trying/inspecting holds. At least for me, my hands don't touch the rock at all when I rapell. Thus, no problem there. Of course my feet usually touch the rock while rapelling, but that's far from what trying/inspecting footholds would be. In my opinion, it's anyway impossible to test/try a (crappy) foothold while hanging in the rope, i.e. you'd have to remove the weight from the rope to do so - and that would of course violate the flash definition. Thus: no problems with rapelling. However, flash isn't a style I practice much (or at all) and I would never bother with rapelling before a flash ascent - even though I think it's perfectly valid to do so.

It seems like we agree: Rappelling/Touching is not allowed before a flash. This actually seems logic as we are climbers because we like challenges. I do not get the point that others could consider taking the hassle, to go up and rappel down in order to make the flash less challenging.

who agrees with you? WTF? are you retarded or what? Rappeling does NOT equal Touching! I BET on enything, that I could rappel ANY route without touching holds neither with my hands neither feet. Moreover md has a very good, clear and valid point, that seems only Jens can't understand. Jens, you are delusional!

Yeah FUCK TICK MARKS. http://answers.polldaddy.com/poll/2139177/ Jesus, I found tick mark in 6a's. Who the fuck need to mark 6th grades ????? Even 7th grade is nonsense. At least do it when it's "relevant", like sketchy foot placement or little hidden handhold and make it small and brush it off before you leave. I know a crag with black sandstone - all the holds get marked with magnesium, very obvious to see. (onsight there is impossible) But there are still some stupidos marking the holds.... onsight: NO INFORMATION flash: ANY INFORMATION, but no touching holds.

Actually Jens, I would find it much more challenging and difficult and time consuming and thus more respectful if I see someone watching videos, studying the route, rappelling it (OR A NEARBY ROUTE) and so on and then making a perfect flash than if someone goes, sees the route, asks where's the crux and sends it. This means nothing - it just shows that the second climber is very good and has just lost his chances to put some more effort and make it onsight. And in the first case it shows that the climber is much more committed to what his trying to do, so he needs more respect. But as climbers are generally lazy people I've never seen and heard someone trying so much before a flash. But it is absolutely allowed to gather as much as info as you you with every possibly way you find.

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't see a single post in this entire thread other than ones by Jens that support the assertion that rapping the route first would negate a flash. I find this curious, and it brings to doubts the validity of the "poll" results. It seems that an overwhelming majority of those who have posted agree on the simple rule of: Onsite: First try, no information, Flash: First try, any information, but no touching holds But perhaps someone else could back the "no rapelling before flash" position up. Anyone?

I agree with md Onsight: First try, no beta Flash: First try, all beta, but not touching (i.e. trying/inspecting) holds People voting for something else are beginners not knowing the rules or got the rules from 8a (wild guess). I like you people discussing that way. @ Jens: Do you argue with these people for our entertainment? Please be honest... Its quite impressive to read 116 posts on a thread about a clear defined and simple rule.

As you all can see, the majority do think in the same way as myself, rappeling before a flash is cheating. When the poll was placed in the news, some 65 % voted for this opinion but here in the forum some 55 %.

No Jens, it seems you are the only one in 118 posts who maintain that rappelling before flash is wrong. All others say: Onsight: First try, no beta Flash: First try, all beta but not touching (i.e. trying/inspecting holds).

Onsight: First try, no beta Flash: First try, all beta (repelling included) but not touching. I know these simple rules for 18 years of climbing and I ahve not meet anyone before who thinks different. It seems that Jens is a religious man and strongly believe in his own new rule. It is hard (impossible) to argue when the faith is concerned. For me whole this poll is one big cheat!

There are no written rules in climbing. The community has created them and it seems regarding rappelling, different communities have different "rules". The majority in the poll think it is cheating to rappell before a flash. So what should we do? Should we have two different flash categories? Personally, I do think we should have rules that are in favour of good practice and for me, it is not in the spirit of climbing to go around and first rappel before a flash. It just seems foolish. The onsight rule has changed and it is now OK to have the quickdraws at place. This is a rule that is in favour of how we climb so it is good that this rule has changed.

Jens - 2 types of flash? Surely we would need about 87 different types of flash 1. Watched a video 2. Watched a video twice 3. Watched a video three times and re-wound the crux section 4. Abbed the route 5. Abbed the route next door 6. Got full beta from a friend 7. Got full beta from a friend and made a replica down the climbing wall 8. etc 9. etc etc etc

I just cant understand why did You sticked so much to the repelling? What is so wrong about it? Why is it worse then watching a HD video of the climb with close-ups on the fingers in the crux holds? Is the problem concerns the photon that directly scatters from the hold and reaches Your eyeball, doing something in Your brain that allows You to run through the route that You do not deserve? If any debate about the flash style is necessery, I would start with the technological change brought by the youtube phenomena. This is what really changed during past years, not the increase in repelling. Actually I have not heard about anyone so devoted to a flash ascent to waste a time for repelling down the route. If this is common activity (do you have a data?) then it is most probably generated by the 8a ranking. You get more points for flash then for red-point. So this is Your devil Jens. It is OK that You are trying to put things in order, but I still have no idea why did You chose the repelling to be the main flash eliminator?

@ Zenon: because, the rappeling thing is the only thing where you find different opinions. For the rest of the flash definition, it is clear what the rules say. I do not like rappeling as it is not in favour of the climbing community. It is a sad practice in order to set a record, it has nothing to do with points.

Ok, if you want to know about the communitys opinion and you want to do a poll then ask this way: What is the definition of flash climbing for you? a: Flash: First try, all possible beta, but not touching holds b: Flash: First try, certain beta (i.e. videos), but not touching holds and not rappelling down the route When you ask this way your 60% are gone.....

In most sport they are constantly changing the rules in order to make the sport better like in soccer or competition climbing etc. I just think that you who are in favour of rappelling before a flash should consider they we also could change the flash rules as this would make our sport better. This would not be a big thing as very few do rappel before aflash. 1. Go around the mountain 2. Rapell down but no touching, almost impossible 3. Go up again and get the rope 4. Start flashing This ethic is not just good for our sport. To say that this is not allowed would be like improving the rules of flashing in order toimprove the rules, like many other sports do constantly. What is the big deal?

There is a certain elegance and clarity to the as it stands now, it is straight-forward, simple, and it works. Adding this anti-rapelling crap is unnecessary and in the opinion of all who have posted on this thread would not improve our sport. By your arguement how can you then justify bolting a route:

go around the mountain
rapell down, clean and place bolts
go up again and get your rope
start climbing

It seems fairly similar to what you described above. Is a ground up ethic what you are proposing?

In
most sport they are constantly changing the rules in order to make the
sport better like in soccer or competition climbing etc. Yes, football has changed the off-side rule (although many would say not for the better) but they haven't changed the fundamental rules have they. Climbing evolves but there are certain things that don't need to change. Such as what 'flash' means. Same for climbing competitions really, the fundamentals haven't changed I just
think that you who are in favour of rappelling before a flash should
consider they we also could change the flash rules as this would make
our sport better. This would not be a big thing as very few do rappel
before aflash. 1. Go around the mountain - or reach across to the next anchor? 2. Rapell down but no touching, almost impossible - abseiling down 1m to the side is perfectly possible 3. Go up again and get the rope - do you actually understand abseiling (or lowering)? Normally it is set up so you can pull your ropes. 4. Start flashing - as long as you haven't touched the holds then yes, get flashing This ethic is not just good for our sport. - it is the ethic of our sport and it has not hurt climbing in the 30 years that I have been climbing And it is better that the ethics of our sport are made by the real community rather than by you and the few hundred who vote in your incredibly poorly phrased polls To
say that this is not allowed would be like improving the rules of
flashing in order toimprove the rules, like many other sports do
constantly. What is the big deal? The big deal is that YOU are trying to re-write the un-written rules of climbing when they don't need re-writing.

@ Graeme: Have you ever rappelled down a route and than tried to flash it. As almost nobody has ever done it, it can not be considered as a fundamental rule. In soccer, the keeper is not any longer allowed to take the fotball with the hands if he got it from one of his guys. Nowadays, a victory is given three points. In lead, you have changed from onsight to flash in the qualification. I call that a fundamental change. In onsight climbing, it is now allowed to have the quickdraws in place. If rappelling is such a fundamental rule, than I please ask everybody who have done it to come forward as it seems nobody have done it? But I guess you do not dare to say that you have rappelled down and than claim it a flash ;-) It would be very interesting to see at least one name ;-)

"Have you ever rappelled down a route and than tried to flash it." Yes, I tried to flash Right Wall in North Wales having abseiled down the route after doing another route on the crag - there is only one abseil point on this crag. Everyone who climbs on Dinas Cromlech does this abseil yet no one blows their flash of Right Wall or Lord of the Flies by abseiling. (I backed off Right Wall by down climbing so the flash is still on) In Spain in August I lowered my friend slowly after he had done a route so he could look at the route next to it - this is common practise There you go Jens, you have your name.

wIt seems you did not understand my question about rappelling as you are talking abseiling and to be lowered down, which is another thing. Have you ever rappelled before a flash was the question? Further more, I think it is a bad practice to down climb in order to save a flash for the next year. 8a says that you can not untie...but this we can discuss in another thread after another poll ;-)

@ Graeme: i think you (but not only you) didn't get the point...what you said at least as i see the facts it is ok...so you climb and climb and when you come down you check for next lines.....BUT did you (for exemple) get on your back the rope and go behind the wall to the top and do a rappel just to check the new route ?...

CristiT - so you are saying that if I lower/abseil down a route in the normal process of climbing at a crag I can still claim a flash but if I make a special trip and lower/abseil down a route then I can't claim a flash?

@ Graeme: you can claim anytime you want a flash...nobody can stop you...what i want to say is that if you lower/abseil down a route in the normal process of climbing at a crag and you claim a flash after that i have the feeling that nothing is wrong with ethics (let's say nobody will complain).....BUT is you make a "special trip" JUST to inspect the route during rappelling AND you claim after that a flash...then you may have problems with ethics "fighters"....but nobody can stop you to claim your flash..... i am wondering what will be the reaction of community if some of the living legends (i.e. Chris S, Adam O, etc etc ) will be seen inspecting a route hanging in the rope and then claiming as flash.....i think many will start to "shoot" them calling them cheaters and so on...EVEN if they can say..."i didn't touch anything....belive me ..." :)))

Jens - "There are no written rules in climbing. " "Escalade flash : le grimpeur observe un partenaire dans la voie ou descend en rappel pour l'analyser." http://www.aravis.com It is just that YOU want to writte YOUR rules, as YOU want... Do you really think that climbing has been invented by 8a.nu ?

CristiT, How far from the route, "flash" is validated after abseiling ? 1 meter ? 0.50cm ? It's a nonsense...
When Yuji onsight the first 8c, many people shout, cause he used binoculars... Just because they did'nt know the simple rule of onsight...
It's always a question of knowledge...

@ jens and cristit: so you can look a route, but you can't look at a route? lowering or abseiling/rappeling (which is hanging on a rope and going down, for all practical purposes) on a neighbouring route with intention to flash is absolutely the same as rappeling the route itself (without touching holds, before you start that shite again). it is allowed, it is written down (thanks again mö!) furthermore, if you do not intend to back up your claims, do not participate in the disucssion. people have brought facts and arguments to the discussion to counter your thesis. you have not even tried to do so with our theses and arguments, you just keep on repeating your feeling. and no, the majority of the community does not make the rules, so don't repeat that either. and making up elaborate cases where the rules do not apply according to you have not worked out once, so don't try that. it won't work anyway. and I was lowered down a route which had the same anchor (ending in traverse, so no matching holds) as the one I wanted to flash. the one I climbeb was 2 number-grades easier than the flash-attempt, so the climbing (while I enjoyed it) was specifically aimed to inspect the other route. afterwards I watched another climber work the route, and then I flashed it. nobody I know will dispute that flash, people complimented me on my thorough preparation and the nice result (it was one of my harder flashes). EDIT : and even if we didn't have an example, it is still allowed according to the rules. see the hotdog example earlier. so, second example. I'm waiting for a witness who confronted a flash-claimer. and for once, respond on topic. that's brave, humble and mature.

you didn't understood me (could be because of me)....so i don't say it is wrong the fact that you look at a route during rappeling if the rappeling is a result of a normal process of climbing !!! you can be at 0,0001 mm from the route...i don' t care !!....but i say it is not ethic to spend (let's say 2 hours) to go behind the hill ...getting the rope across a tree (for example) and starts rappelling and study the route (even if you don't touch the holds)....it is not ethic to spend all the effort JUST to have the study....i am sorry if this is against the rule or not but from my point of view if i see a climber doing this... will not gain my respect ...and we both live without this ...NO PROBLEM And if you want to get stuck in rules how about if you brush during rappelling each hold to clean it up?...actually you didn't touch the hold...the brush did it ....would you still claim a flash ? On the other hand if you MUST do a rappell to climb the route (it could be the case due to access at start of the route)...and maybe "by mistake" you put the feet on some holds but no inspection ...it could happen that during the speed rappelling you just touch the holds (without paying attention)...how about this case ? well from my point of view the climber can claim the flash !!! ....

I think it is more of a personal ethic for you, I would prefer to call it style. the thing is, you can never give an exact difference. in my example I checked in the normal process of climbing, but the climbing was only done to facilitate the checking.. and going up to the back of the crag could als o be described as climbing. only a lot easier ;) thing with rules is, that they have to be clear. only way to do that, is to have no intermediate possibilities.. and brushing is in for flash, I reckon. and touching a part of the wall by accident doesn't get a burr in my bonnet.. so there I agree with you. while rappeling (with speed, I agree. that's essential) you won't gain a thing.

You are right...all what i am saying here is only personal feelings (it is as i tryed to say in all my posts...it is what i feel) based on only few experience i have...could be i am wrong or not ...and here the role of 8a.nu should come out and help me (but also other "young" climbers) to understand it right. Something new for me is regarding brushing....so it is allowed to brush the holds ?...and then to flash....?! (we speak for sport climb routes not boulder...) Just a joke: i hope next time i will be at the wall i will not be alone there...could be all the guys are back on the hill searching paths to points good for rappell down ...prio fashing :)))

@ Cristi: Thanks! You are giving many good examples of normal process of climbing and that is also what I try to explain. It would be interesting to see what the climbing community said if Chris Sharma did walk around the top of a 9a and then rappelled down before he flashed it and claimed a world record. I also like to example of brushing the holds. Clearly this should no be in the good praxis of rock climbing and if some think so, this ethic should be improved.

For me the limit is once you start doing unnormal things systematically just in order to be able to brag about it. I think the 8a concept of green, yellow and red card is perfect for climbing as there ofter are "grey zones" that will be impossible to set a strict rule...like pre-clipping etc. Why is knee-pad with shoe rubber cheating for you? (I can make a poll ;-)

Unnormal things ? Do you thing climbing rocks is normal ? If yes, it could be the number one in sports, no ? I just would like to remind you that the ONLY goal of free climbing was to sent the route with less artificial help (see below)... Onsight/flash/1st try/second try/third try etc etc... was just "bonus" for fun... and became a way of acuracy for outdoor competitor. Everybody is ok to says, it sucks to take time to rapeling in a route, IF it's not so close from another one... But it does'nt means it's forbiden, no ? If it's ok on a specific route (traverse), it could be right on all. Rules MUST be applied on all. Kneepads with shoe rubber... Just because it offers you some rests, impossible whithout this kind of artificial gear... I have tested this in a gym and there is nothing to compare. http://www.nice-climb.com/pagesphotos/sondages/sondage.html

"I think the 8a concept of green, yellow and red card is perfect for climbing as there ofter are "grey zones" that will be impossible to set a strict rule...like pre-clipping etc."

First, I notice that you agree it's not so clear for pre-clipping...

yellow card/red card...
It comes from a competition rules likes soccer (do you realy want climbing becomes like soccer ?) but we are not talking about competitions because grades are not so important !
And if someone get a yellow card.
Which council is abble to give it ?
You ?
And after two yelleow cards, your 8a.nu account is closed ?
what's the point

No climbing rule or ethic is clear...it is something just invented by climbers in different part of the world. It is up to everyone to decide if we used good ethic. In some sports, there is no referee and in these sports the ethic is more important. As soon as you invent clear rules, people try their best to go around...by if you do not have any clear rules, we have to be responsible ourself.