There Is No Gender War

Noah Brand makes the case for a non-adversarial model of gender.

I get asked, from time to time, what I think about the “war between feminists and MRAs.”

I’ll be frank–I don’t think there’s any such thing. It’s like asking me what I think of the demolition of Toontown.

The Manichaean Fallacy is a very common trap in human cognition. It’s the constant temptation to reduce any situation of perceived conflict down to an absolute battle between two pure opposing forces, equal in strength and power, which can only end in absolute victory for one side and defeat for the other.

For whatever reason, our brains really, really like to frame things this way, to where we’ll hammer situations that don’t fit until we can make ’em fit. There aren’t really two sides? We’ll mentally assign people to teams. The sides aren’t purely homogenous? We’ll just pretend they are. The two sides aren’t remotely equal? We’ll just talk as though they were. There, that only took three steps, and now we have a nice, comfortable model that doesn’t resemble reality at all.

There’s a secondary fallacy, where some folks like to tell themselves that ultimate truth is always at a midway point between the two perfectly opposed sides that they imagine. You’ve heard these guys, “Well, there are extremists on both sides, but I find the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. If only people were willing to compromise…” In other words, they pick two imaginary points, derive a third imaginary point from them, and call the result objectivity. These folks are fun because you don’t have to torture them with rats to get them to truly believe that 2+2=5. You just have to get some of the pundits on TV saying that 2+2=6.

The “war” between feminists and MRAs is a creation of this fallacy, including the “well, maybe there’s a middle ground” corollary. It makes some folks feel like they’re in an intense, exciting struggle with the whole world at stake, which is a fun thing to pretend to believe.

Thing is, it just isn’t so. Feminists and MRAs are not pure and not equivalent, victory for one does not equal defeat for the other, and it certainly doesn’t map accurately to people’s real-life experiences of gender. I reject the entire silly model as a useless framing of gender roles in our society. It’s a lousy model with no predictive value and I’ll have no truck with it. A better model lies not in the middle, but outside the manichaean conflict entirely.

There’s a principle we discovered over at No Seriously, What About The Menz?, that we named Ozy’s Law. It is simply this: you cannot form a stereotype about either of the two major genders without simultaneously forming a concurrent stereotype about the other. Or, more simply: misandry mirrors misogyny.

Pick out whatever sexist stereotypes offend you, and you’ll find that every one of them has a corollary stereotype. Men always want sex; women never want sex. Men are slobs; women should do housework. Men are shallow and looks-obsessed; women are only valuable for their looks. Men are only valuable for their success and money; women are shallow gold-diggers. There is no end to these, no offensively wrong stereotype that doesn’t carry its offensively wrong twin.

Therefore, the entire asinine notion of gender liberation as a zero-sum game in which one gender must lose for the other to gain… simply doesn’t make sense. It cannot make sense. Men and women can only be liberated together, or not at all.

We cannot liberate men from the trap of the success myth without liberating women from the beauty myth. We cannot liberate women from being nothing but housewives without liberating men from being nothing but breadwinners. We cannot liberate everyone from repressive and outdated sexual roles if we’re only going to pick at the edges of the problem, trying to free this person’s penis or that person’s vagina. At this point in the game, we are either freeing everyone from repressive gender roles or we’re just fucking around.

That in mind, I think we should get to work, because the hour is late and we’ve left a lot undone.

About Noah Brand

Noah Brand is a writer and editor, and quite possibly also a cartoon character from the 1930s. His life, when it is written, will read better than it lived. He is usually found in Portland, Oregon, directly underneath a very nice hat.

Leave a Reply

125 Comments on "There Is No Gender War"

Notify of new replies to this comment

Notify of new replies to this comment

Sort by:
newest |
oldest
| most voted

Guest

Rowan

4 years 7 months ago

How disappointingly unsurprising that even an article saying we should stop taking sides and focus on equality for all, still ends up full of angry comments putting all the blame on one group or another. Both feminism, and the MRM, are made up of individuals and groups and you will find a variety of opinions within each. They are not based on a specific list of agreed upon rules or statements of belief. There is no “bible” for either that every self-identified member agrees to. So we can always find certain individuals or sub-groups who have done or said things… Read more »

[…] This comment is from commenter Transhuman on the post There Is No Gender War. […]

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Jenna

4 years 8 months ago

I spend a lot of time with feminists, and I just want to point out one thing. A lot of comments here about the “zero sum”, that women have been playing the oppressed part for years, has a bit of historic basis. A lot of the women who I know that are feminists are in their 50’s-60’s, and actually were part of the movement when they were fighting for real rights. I mean, my great grandmother remembers thinking that women shouldn’t be in politics, because she always thought she just could never be as intelligent as a man. My grandma… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Adi

4 years 8 months ago

“the polarizing aspect of the MRM that makes me prickle is their tendency to do the same thing. To blame everything on the feminist and bemoan the destruction of society perpetuated by women against men. When can both sides see they aren’t doing anyone any favours when this happens? ” Again I have to point out that MRA’s blame feminists while feminists blame(d) men. See the difference? One is just a counter ideology and the other is outright sexism. Who’s the bad guy here? There is in fact very little women blaming for men’s rights issues. But people, especially feminists,… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Jenna

4 years 8 months ago

“There is in fact very little women blaming for men’s rights issues”. The point is, for women that want true equality, there is very little man-blaming (or man-hating, as the media so likes to put it to make lesbian=feminist=bad and add a healthy dose of bigotry). The same is true for men’s rights issues. That is my point- it doesn’t happen nearly as much in either movement as it’s let on. Most men don’t hate women, and most women don’t hate men. If they do, probably check for some trauma in the past, because no one should so broadly dislike… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Archy

4 years 8 months ago

Amen to that, I refuse to be called both mra and feminist label as it carries too much baggage and instantly can dismiss a reasonable discussion over preconceived ideas of what feminists or mras are. The Us vs them is annoying, I like to talk about issues from both sides to understand them better and it actually makes me feel less different from the other gender. But the polarizing attitudes really bugs me.

I don’t think that either of the feminists being asked questions here are going to lower themselves to answer them… Anyhow – “Ozys law” is something that the mens rights movement has discussed for years now in some shape of form. Its just that feminists are copping on to the blatantly obvious fact that there is and there has always been equity and that for every privilege that men are alleged to have and for every piece of alleged misogyny, there is the other side of the coin. In this ongoing debate I would suggest to feminists that want to… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Adi

4 years 8 months ago

You just brought me onto something: It was after all the feminists who started the “women are oppressed by men” cry and basically hammered it into everyone’s head that women have it worse. Even today, the majority of feminists believe that. Now, after women have gained tremendous ground (which I appreciate btw), suddenly some self proclaimed egalitarians on a fabricated pedestal of moral authority come out saying that it’s actually equally bad for both sexes thereby dismissing the need for an MRM again and reasserting that only feminism cares about everyone’s equality so we should all be feminists. Talk about… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Adi

4 years 8 months ago

@ the feminists here who claim to be egalitarian. First of all, the author of this article is closely affiliated with a site that has the sole purpose of mocking MRAs and doesn’t hesitate to slander them in order to do so. When for example, I mentioned that false rape accusations sometimes lead to the suicide of an innocent person, the response from Ozymandias was something like: “I would care more if MRAs didn’t try to use that as a means to downplay the seriousness of rape” [the exact wording escaped my memory but it was definitely no exaggeration]. The… Read more »

First of all, the author of this article is closely affiliated with a site that has the sole purpose of mocking MRAs and doesn’t hesitate to slander them in order to do so. Hold up. Now I’ll be the first to say that I think Noah has drunk the feminist cool-aid on MRAs but that is far from the sole purpose of NSWATM. Oh but if you want to see that type of behavior in action then just look up one David Futrelle. The hypocrisy of somebody of that political affiliation come here and preach to end the gender war… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Adi

4 years 8 months ago

@ Danny
David Futrelle was what I was talking about – manboobz.

On the other things you said, deep down I will always remain open and optimistic. I can’t be anything else and live. But I will also be very cautious and mistrustful. Being that, I will call out contradictory messages as we all should. The days of just assuming feminists are right about something they say are over and will never come back. I think we agree.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Archy

4 years 8 months ago

I haven’t heard a single positive thing about David Futrelle, why is that?
I myself don’t think feminism alone is the answer to ending the gender war…Maybe feminism + masculism both working together but not feminism alone. Egalitarianism would be the only successor that could use a single label and not have such polarized views I feel….

Honestly the only positive thing about his site is that there actually is misogyny among MRAs that needs to be called out. The problem is feminists have propped him up as some champion of calling out MRAs to the point that they think he can do no wrong when that is nowhere near the truth (but good luck getting those feminists to look among themselves for their own negativity). I myself don’t think feminism alone is the answer to ending the gender war…Maybe feminism + masculism both working together but not feminism alone. Egalitarianism would be the only successor that… Read more »

Thanks for this post, Noah. Agree. However, the point was clearly missed in many of the comments – and, again, we turn to warring at one another instead of working together. I read a recent post in the HuffPost right before reading this on how MRAs just can’t stop blaming feminism. I still don’t understand that impulse. I mean, I do – it’s just so unhelpful. Moreover, from what I understand, feminism already had a lil sit-down with itself regarding how it needed to engage and empower men, too. How it hadn’t been doing that. And yet. Why can’t the… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Copyleft

4 years 8 months ago

Nikki, feminism is advocacy for women (whether they admit it or not). MRAs are their counterpart: advocacy for men. There are egalitarians in both groups; but there are also blamers in both groups.

Neither one is truly 100% focused on equality over advocacy–but the MRA side at least has the integrity to admit it.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Adi

4 years 8 months ago

Yes. The most nauseating part is how feminists patented the “equality movement” label for themselves and by non sequitur, falsely conclude that anyone who isn’t feminist, is therefore against equality.
You want dialogue? Then find me a feminist who actually accepts that MRAs want equality. Because as long as feminists don’t believe that, they’re effectively calling MRAs their opposition which is what I believe is ultimately the cause for the mistrust and adversity.

You want dialogue? Then find me a feminist who actually accepts that MRAs want equality. Because as long as feminists don’t believe that, they’re effectively calling MRAs their opposition which is what I believe is ultimately the cause for the mistrust and adversity.
I’ll make it more simple than that. Find me some feminists that will actually say something when others among them go around saying that not identifying as feminist means you are against equality.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Jenna

4 years 8 months ago

I’ve identified as a feminist for a few years (volunteered at a sexual assault center for LGBTQ youths, everyone there identifies as a feminist), and I think that MRA’s want equality. I do think there are problems with both sides (you get whack jobs in every movement, and unfortunately those are the ones you hear from), but all my friends, colleagues, and family members are totally on board with REAL equality for BOTH genders. At the end of the day, we all have sons AND daughters, mothers AND fathers that we love and care about. I think you will see… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Archy

4 years 8 months ago

Egalitarian would be the better title, feminism has a very female orientated meaning and causes some megafights. There are many that want feminism to remain a female-only space for instance and discussing male issues with them usually ends badly. There are those that use feminism as egalitarian, and those that use it as gynocentric, the latter cannot handle male issues so I think it’d be better to move from feminism into a gender neutral term like egalitarian.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Bob-O

4 years 8 months ago

Frankly, as long as the default feminist position is that “all men are rapists,” I couldn’t possibly work with them, nor would I even want to.

Okay while it is true that that attitude is real I wouldn’t call it the default feminist position. But i do understand how you could to believe that.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

Nikki

If feminism is producing false data relating to domestic violence rates and is then using that data to create misandry and fear, and put laws on the books that roll back civil rights, which in turn creates the need for father rights and accuracy in data reporting and fixing of these laws (mra), which it is, who else is there to blame for that, of not feminism?

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

cw

4 years 8 months ago

had a humorous thought… I wonder if they had a “sit down” to give us “an offer we can’t refuse?”

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

cw

4 years 8 months ago

“feminism already had a lil sit-down with itself regarding how it needed to engage and empower men, too. How it hadn’t been doing that. And yet. ” If this is how feminism “engages and empowers” I’d hate to see what happens when they try to minimize, deflect and obstruct. One obvious example- NOW (a preeminent Feminist organization) actively advocates AGAINST a rebuttable presumption of equal custody. That is a feminist organization working AGAINST men. Why it affects me- If my wife left me I would probably not get equal custody without an enormous legal battle largely because of my gender.… Read more »

…feminism already had a lil sit-down with itself regarding how it needed to engage and empower men, too. Well apparently all the members didn’t get the memo because despite this lil sit down there are still feminists that will say in one breath they want to work with men and in the next will shut us out the minute they think we might say something they don’t like. Why can’t the MRA movement learn from what feminism did wrong in the past, and actually make some real progress in everyone working together for EQUALITY? And I would dare ask why… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eric M

4 years 8 months ago

“Why can’t the MRA movement learn from what feminism did wrong in the past, and actually make some real progress in everyone working together for EQUALITY?” Feminism is still doing it wrong as it is in no way working toward equality as it claims. If it wants to br broadly respected, my advice for it/them is to be honest for a change and just admit that it is a women’s empowerment and advancent movement with little to no concerns about overall equality or men’s issues and/or concerns – the ones that men consider issues, not the ones feminism has decided… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Adi

4 years 8 months ago

Nobody is saying women are holding men down – I am not at least. But feminists often do. They routinely work against men’s rights activism. Attempts to form men’s issues discussions are often sabotaged as threatening womens’ issues.
While I agree that MRAs are often over the top with seeing feminists as “the enemy”, that is definitely not without reason.
You want MRAs to see feminists as allies, then instead of just demanding it, perhaps have feminists behave like allies and you’ll find that it quickly catches on.

True. Case in point a few years ago Glenn Sacks commented on the way Shakesville has/had its “Open Wide”/”Shut Up” tabs for expanding and collapsing posts. He went off on about how rude it was for McEwan to do such things. McEwan explained that that was the blog software. Sacks copped to not knowing what he was talking about and followed by saying something to the effect of, “Hey since we’re talking now let’s continue.” Do you know what McEwan did? She continued attacking him and some folks from FinallyFeminism101 jumped in on the action as well. But we’re supposed… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Things Are Bad

4 years 8 months ago

Yes there is.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Adi

4 years 8 months ago

“Don’t simplify things into equal and opposites but we believe that every stereotype has it’s equal and opposite. ” Perhaps the demand for self sacrifice from men has a female equal and opposite? I’d be curious what that is. How does ANYTHING measure up to that? Oh, sorry, we didn’t want to compare the issues when they don’t suit us. And the hypocrisies continue: Have people forgotten that the very notion of a gender war and an altogether adversarial stance in men/women is fundamental to feminism? Sure they’ve toned it down in recent years but don’t kid yourselves on how… Read more »

Perhaps the demand for self sacrifice from men has a female equal and opposite? I’d be curious what that is.

Childbirth. Hurts like the devil.

And then, they demand to be fed, like, immediately. That can also hurt.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Adi

4 years 8 months ago

Omg that’s so not equivalent. Child birth, in case you haven’t noticed is a choice that women can make. I was talking about a DEMAND made on women.
Still waiting….

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Keevo

4 years 7 months ago

I’m unaware of women having to register for a “giving birth draft”.
Is biology a result of some patriarchal conspiracy? I mean seriously, it’s not like death during childbirth is ever called “honour” or “glory” or “action” and certainly not “privilege”.
I’m finding it hard to keep a straight face, who writes your material, it’s hilarious.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Peter Houlihan

4 years 8 months ago

“Perhaps the demand for self sacrifice from men has a female equal and opposite? I’d be curious what that is. How does ANYTHING measure up to that? Oh, sorry, we didn’t want to compare the issues when they don’t suit us.” i would imagine the opposite is… self sacrafice. Men are expected to lay down their health and lives to protect and provide for everyone else. Women are expected to do more or less the same to usher in the next generation. Don’t forget that in industrial and pre industrial societies women’s life spans are quite comparable to men’s, if… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Adi

4 years 8 months ago

“Women are expected to do more or less the same to usher in the next generation” Wrong. Women have full control to choose either way when it comes to giving birth – far more control than men. Men’s expectation to self sacrifice is not something they can choose when in a dangerous situation. “Don’t forget that in industrial and pre industrial societies women’s life spans are quite comparable to men’s, if not lower.” Where the hell did you pull that from? Do you also believe the earth is flat? Come on. The stats on life expectancy are very widely known… Read more »

Anthony, So the question is, WHY are you “not an MRA”? There is a popular perception that MRAs are the “flip” side of feminism. This is not true. We are the completion of the original civil rights movement, called feminism, that has been corrupted by power and money. Why am I not an MRA? As much as I sympathize with many of them, and even though they seek to speak for me as a man on male issues… I just can’t commit to it. Why? For the same reason that I can’t be completely comfortable with Feminism. Too many attempts… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Keevo

4 years 7 months ago

Who was conscripted as a class in 1968? How is that not an issue in and of itself?

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

Zek

Paul Elam wrote that shock piece to underline the fact that if you are accused of rape, you will not get a fair trial. Im just saying, because if you don’t give that context, and only repeat the soundbite that feminists do, it gives the wrong impression.

I have been falsely accused of rape. I understand the context completely. There is no wrong impression to give. Refusing to convict someone who is overwhelmingly guilty, and advocating that others do the same is immoral. It is also illegal.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

You gave the wrong impression by not giving the full context here for others to read.

Eoghan, I respectfully disagree. 1) people here should know how to do their own research once given the information. Also, Elam’s article is sufficiently infamous to render “give the context” a weak argument. I mean, no one denies what he said, and the context does not change it. 2) The context you stated is non-relevant. Knowing that men do not get a fair trial in cases of rape in no way justifies refusing to convict someone you know to be guilty. It is illegal, and hypocritical considering the advocacy among MRA’s for male rape victims to get justice against their… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

Zek You aren’t getting the part about it being designed to shock and grab attention, rather than a serious movement to aqquit rapists. Beside the maxim “It is better to let nine guilty men free than to convict one innocent man” has been part of our legal system and is there to protect the people from tyranny. Paul suggested something that the legal system believes in and is built on. Its Kool Aid and rape that makes this good thing all of a sudden bad. It just depends whose saying it, Lawyer saying that its a pillar of a just… Read more »

Well, first of all you’re equating to non-similar situations, which is an obvious red herring. Innocent until proven guilty and the maxim you quote are not the same as instructing men who are on a jury where a man is on trial for rape to NOT convict him even though the evidence overwhelmingly points to that conclusion and you as a juror know it to be true. Again, the two situations ARE NOT the same. Wait, let me repeat. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Seriously, they’re really not. 1) is based on a legal premise that people shouldn’t be convicted… Read more »

This is the internet. My biggest frustrations about it is that no one enjoys giving full context if they have points to score. I’d suggest that if people are doing shock pieces (feminsts or mras, republicans or dem, etc) they state it as such cause it would help cover their asses when the inevitable “not giving context” happens

I’ve put the question out there. No responses as of 11:08 today. Believe me, I’ll let you know what I find out. Mostly, I’m guessing I’ll be finding out that my friends are too busy to answer my FB requests. And spending much more time on it means I won’t get my GMP work done today….so I’m gonna focus the rest of my free time on assignments Lisa Hickey is waiting for 😉

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

IDBY

4 years 8 months ago

That’s odd. It’s a 3 second exercise. You didn’t tell them why you wanted their ages did you?

Not odd at all! I put it up this morning because, guess what! I’ve been really really busy. Like getting 4 hours of sleep busy. And much of what I’m busy with involves writing, editing, moderating, producing and work that is time sensitive and in the service of GMP. So this, as fun as it is to banter with you, is a low priority. Also? Because it is an entirely unscientific experiment! Also also? Maybe my friends are, I don’t know…busy with work. I did NOT tell them why, but it’s charming (and well expected) of you to assume I’d… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

IDBY

4 years 8 months ago

Also. I didn’t think you would poll with an agenda. But you clearly mentioned sharing details with the potential respondents… which of course is a big no no for any survey. I’m looking for good results, not just good intentions.

Yeah, I mean if I was going to really take time with it, which frankly I don’t have (and I am not a research type, so I am actually really paranoid about asking leading questions in the surveys I have to do for work), it would need much different criteria then “hey tell me if there is an age gap.” I’d be interested in things like 1st or 2nd partnership etc and the parameter around “same age” is that same age to the month? Is that a gap of (which I’m using) three years because they could have been in… Read more »

0

| ReplyShare

Guest

IDBY

4 years 8 months ago

Oh. I thought that it had been up since yesterday. You strike me as the multitasking type like myself. And I only decry and deride comments I think earn it. When someone writes thoughts that I enjoy I pat them on the back. Don’t think I dislike you though. Cause I don’t. Quite the contrary. You are absolutely adorable, yet so wrong about so many things.

The only reason you won’t get a fair trial if you’re accused of rape is that everyone will be too busy telling your alleged victim that she was obviously “asking for it” because her skirt was too short, or she was drunk, or she’s had sex before, or was walking alone late at night, or is just lying to make you look bad, to even entertain the possibility that her accusation might have merit.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

That’s very dishonest Cassie. False claims about rape just seem to roll off your tongue.

Moderator’s Note: approved but we’d ask both parties here tone down the direct sarcasm. Keep things focused on the facts and the articles, and comments that begin to engage in ad hominem will be moderated.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

That comment is in moderation, she gets to tell lies about rape and I get moderated for calling them out?

Eoghan, what lies are being told by Cassie? Please email me at julie@goodmenproject.com and I’ll look into the comments issues on both sides.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Peter Houlihan

4 years 8 months ago

That and the rules of evidence which won’t allow you to draw attention to her history of compulsive lying and similar false accusations, institutions that assume your guilt before the incestigations even begin, the knowlege of the accuser that even if she is found to be lying beyond all reasonable doubt nothing will happen, the fact that anyone will be allowed to testify that you assaulted them in the past with no evidence to back it up and the protest groups who attempt to identify every accuser as a victim. Other than those minor issues, yeah, victim blaming is pretty… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

IDBY

4 years 8 months ago

You have the best sarcasm.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Copyleft

4 years 8 months ago

Glad to hear you’re abandoning feminism in order to work on equality, Noah. It’s about time people acknowledged that this adversarial stance was doomed to failure.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

There is a gender war being waged against men in the legal system by institutional feminism. If we do not act, the radicals that actually do something other than talk will continue to wage that war unhindered.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Cassie

4 years 8 months ago

A gender war against *men* being waged by *feminism*. I guess that would explain all the bills in state legislatures in the past several months requiring doctors to rape women with ultrasound wands before they can avail themselves of a legal medical procedure.

In other news from Bizarro World, water is bright orange and Fred Phelps just rescued a kitten from a tree.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

Cassie. Don’t be so rude. I was talking specifically about radical feminism’s multi- pronged attack on men in the legal system. I’m fairly low on patience for the debate by sarcasm style that feminists often bring to the table. if you have to communicate like a sophomore mean girl, please don’t communicate with me.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Peter Houlihan

4 years 8 months ago

You seem to think that just because women are victims of sexism that men can’t be, or that feminists are immune to prejudice. Just because the GOP is passing some screwed up laws doesn’t mean that equally messed up laws aren’t being passed which negatively effect men, many of which are lobbied for by feminist advocacy groups.

Do they have VAWA in bizarro world too?

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eric M

4 years 8 months ago

The zero-sum game doesn’t make sense but it has, for a fact, been the reality for many years now – and the demand for the delta to widen even further sees no end. Forget about stereotypes. Let’s talk substance, such as years earlier death, higher unemployment, 100% of gender-specific government services are for women, 0% are for men. Fewer and fewer boys (compared to girls) and men graduating from high school. Fewer and fewer men (compared to women) graduating from college. Both are nearing a 20% gap. I’m not an MRA, just an observer and see this zero-sum trend building… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Cassie

4 years 8 months ago

I suggest you educate yourself on the subject before you go spouting off. 98% of women will use birth control in their lifetime. Not “0.00001%.” And your “$9 at Target” assertion? Is when *your insurance covers the prescription,* which is not the case for the Georgetown student in question. Who is probably racking up enormous student loans and making a pittance in actual wages. And if you read or listened to the testimony in question, the woman she was talking about needed hormonal birth control to prevent the formation of ovarian cysts. She couldn’t afford this medication, and it wasn’t… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

IDBY

4 years 8 months ago

Pharmaceutical companies own the US Surgeon General. “Preventative” is a wonderful source of revenue especially when it’s a mandate.

“I suggest you educate yourself on the subject before you go spouting off. 98% of women will use birth control in their lifetime. Not “0.00001%.” First get the facts, then think and reason on them. . . 99.9999% of women using BC pills do not work for the Catholic Church. So, this issue affects a very tiny % of women. “And your “$9 at Target” assertion? Is when *your insurance covers the prescription,*” Wrong. As I said, “First get the facts. . .” A simple prescription discount card (some of which are free) is all that is needed to get… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Jameseq

4 years 8 months ago

that was a stark and devastating rebuttal Eric

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

Eric M.

Thanks for taking the time out to put perspective on that.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

cw

4 years 8 months ago

Thank you for adding some clarity.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eric M

4 years 8 months ago

Yeah, I got sick of the propaganda supported by twisted- or fact-free hysteria. Such a waste of time to discuss something that in reality prevents no women who want access to birth control pills from having it.

It’s a sad and desperate attempt to cast themselves as victims when they are, in fact, nothing of the sort.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Anthony Zarat

4 years 8 months ago

So the question is, WHY are you “not an MRA”? There is a popular perception that MRAs are the “flip” side of feminism. This is not true. We are the completion of the original civil rights movement, called feminism, that has been corrupted by power and money. Early 1900’s feminism was about equal private sector OPPORTUNITY for women. Early 2000’s men’s rights is about equal public sector PROTECTION for men. Will the MRM one day become corrupt and ugly, as has happened with feminism? Probably. But today, now, it is a beautiful movement that fights for equality and dignity for… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eric M

4 years 8 months ago

Does the MRM have a zero-misogyny-tolerance policy? Does it absolutely, unequivocally, no excuses kick out/expel/shun/ostracize/ban any and all who make misogynistic statements, take anti-female positions/opinions/philosophies, etc.? If not, it is at risk of becoming what feminism is known for, allowing such persons to run amok, speak in its behalf, set its anti-male agenda and policies, creating a gynocentric (sometimes misandristic) world-view – so much so that many of those in the movement don’t even recognize it; they look but can’t see what is blatantly obvious to most women and men. That is a risk I am not willing to take.… Read more »

The MRM isn’t a centralised body, it doesn’t have any policies period. Same with feminism.

I agree with your policy of only joining groups which stand against misogyny and misandry (aswell as homophobia, racism etc.) though. Good call.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

IDBY

4 years 8 months ago

And? 1000 vectors of different intensity and different direction will still create a resultant vector of x intensity in x direction. The concept of generalization is more than valid and applies to both MRM and feminism. And speaking of generalizations I find that MRM is more likely to fight against the characterization of the movement as anti women than they do against being characterized, where as feminism is more likely to argue against any generalization (“feminists aren’t monolithic”) than the details. Of course the latter approach seems crazy for a movement that uses a single word (patriarchy) to describe the… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

The mrm has higher standards than feminism, while its also held to far higher standards.

Misandy is no taboo or blasphemy, that’s why feminism can operate at the misandric levels that it does while misogny is modern blasphemy, thats why the slightest criticism of women registers at massively inflated and ridiculous levels of pearl clutching.

The reality is that there is much more wide spread and unchecked misandry to be found in feminism, than there is misogyny in the mrm.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Peter Houlihan

4 years 8 months ago

Citation needed. I’d like this to be true but I haven’t seen any research that backs it up, or even methods by which such research could be conducted.

Its a statement about the views of a dispersed and partially invisible population regarding subjective values.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Keevo

4 years 7 months ago

What’s preventing you from doing your own research?
I used the method of opening my eyes and observing the blindingly obvious.
It’s a statement about conspicuously evident and unsettling facts, not so much views or subjective values. I admit I’m generalising but it holds up to scrutiny.
But don’t take my word for it, just look at the basic facts and see for yourself.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Nick, mostly

4 years 7 months ago

There’s this thing called “bias” and that’s why the “method of opening [your] eyes and observing the blindingly obvious” isn’t called research and very much is subjective whether or not you care to characterize it as such.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Keevo

4 years 6 months ago

Bullshit. How can any form of research begin with anything other than observation? Anyone that pays attention to double standards relating to misandry / misogyny can clearly see that the latter is acceptable and the other is heresy. How is that refutable? How is that subjective? Just because very much is subjective does not mean that very much is not objective, that is brazenly false reasoning. Also the matter of whether or not I care to characterise something as subjective is total nonsense, it’s not a question of what I care to do and objectivity has nothing to do with… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Nick, mostly

4 years 6 months ago

Let me guess, you’re not a scientist and haven’t conducted a research study. Please do look up observer bias. You said your method isn’t subjective (“It’s a statement about conspicuously evident and unsettling facts, not so much views or subjective values”); I’m simply pointing out that you’re not in a position to know what is subjective or not, because of observer bias. If you had ever conducted research before you would know about observer bias and wouldn’t have made such an obviously inaccurate claim.

The tone of your response comes across as very hostile. It doesn’t sound healthy to me.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

Why would scientific research even exist for that in first place, you know well that it wouldn’t, don’t you?

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Anthony Zarat

4 years 8 months ago

I respect your “do no harm” priority. I cannot argue, although I chose a different path.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

IDBY

4 years 8 months ago

Maybe because he prioritizes by suffering rather than gender? I know I do. The mentality of Feminists gave us the entitled testimony of Susan Fluke. Why would anyone want to start men’s issues down that path? I don’t want a male version of feminism.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Anthony Zarat

4 years 8 months ago

Feminism did a great deal of good, before it started to do harm.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

IDBY

4 years 8 months ago

I beg to differ. Right out of the gate feminism sought to dismiss class, race and men, but since women’s issues at the time were significant it didn’t matter as much as it does now where maiden name discussion takes precedent over male life expectancy.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eric M.

4 years 8 months ago

Exactly.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Anthony Zarat

4 years 8 months ago

Your title is “there is no gender war”, but your argument is “there should be no gender war.”

There IS a gender war. Feminists are fighting to enslave men, boys, and fathers in a binary mistress-servant relationship. Certainly, you are correct that the mistress-servant relationship is dehumanizing to both mistress and servant. MRAs say this every day, but feminists are not interested in listening. They are interested in winning.

Although now that I think of it…sometimes it’s easier to have a discussion with someone by suggesting we all move to the centre, rather than suggesting we move outside the paradigm. There are people who, no matter what anyone says, view feminism and the MRA as two opposing ends…and sometimes the only way to get anyone who identifies with either group of even consider the possibility that they aren’t at war, we have to suggest moving toward the centre. If two groups treat each other as opposing sides, then they become opposing sides…and I think sometimes they gotta move toward… Read more »

Personally, I’d like to see us just STOP thinking of being in opposite poles. We’re in this together. We’re all human. We just make up the differences, most of the time. And, as Ozy has pointed out on their amazeballs website (and that I have re-iterated on numerous occasions) – it’s not about who has more/worse shit raining down, it’s about figuring out where the shit is coming from and making it STOP. FOR EVERYONE.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eoghan

4 years 8 months ago

Well Nikki the source of Oppression Olympics is feminism. If feminism were to drop the whole – women have/had it worse (supported by bad or incomplete data) therefore men’s issues are illegitimate/rooted in fear of losing privilege/desire to hurt women/rape! or whatever the dishonest and illogical silencing tactic may be it wouldnt be like this. Feminism’s dishonest rhetoric and its rejection of men’s issues , false accusations and its lobbying for discriminatory laws and its false accusations and slandering of anyone that objects over the decades has caused a very dysfunctional situation. This is why there is such polarization in… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Transhuman

4 years 8 months ago

I don’t know if I’m sleep-deprived or I have had a genuine epiphany. Perhaps if men realised that Feminism is simply not relevant to them and moved on to solving their problems. Feminism doesn’t offer me anything, and I understand that it should not, and neither should I expect it to. It does a fine job of looking after the women in my life so I need to get together with some men and we need to sort out what we think men need. Then make it happen. An example: I do not go to my local bakery and harangue… Read more »

It is simply this: you cannot form a stereotype about either of the two major genders without simultaneously forming a concurrent stereotype about the other. Or, more simply: misandry mirrors misogyny. As a regular at NSWATM you know I agree with this law and I think that for those who don’t this law may show why they continue with the zero sum game activity. Chances are the folks that play the zero sum game are going to be the ones that either aruge that one exists and the other doesn’t or ones that will accept one without question but want… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Peter Houlihan

4 years 8 months ago

I think it would be more accurate to argue that there doesn’t need to be a gender war or that there shouldn’t be a gender war. Unfortunately some people on both sides are treating it as a zero sum game and doing damage in the process.

I certainly want to believe this is true Noah. How does this theory square with the whole END OF MEN hypothesis which is based, at least in part, on cold hard stats?

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Peter Houlihan

4 years 8 months ago

Personally I think the end of men scenario could ultimately be a good one for men’s rights: I think the jobs might have to be taken away for the average guy to wake up and start asking if its ok for him to be defined by it.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Poester99

4 years 8 months ago

This is has societal implications. If “many” men stopped to find themselves instead of working after they had been laid off, who would take up the burden of supporting the country? I think we would begin to fail because we are used to/addicted to the wealth generated by most men working themselves to death.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

fly

4 years 8 months ago

you mean family men’s rights, if there is no “house” to be a “husband” of then there is nothing else to “let define” you when you become jobless.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

rapses

4 years 8 months ago

You say:
“I think the jobs might have to be taken away for the average guy to wake up and start asking if its ok for him to be defined by it.”

This statement is really confusing. Do you really think that an average guy who loses his job would instead of desperately looking for another job, would start pondering whether his job define him or not.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Eric

4 years 8 months ago

That’s brilliant. I’m sure the average guy will have plenty of time to contemplate that while he’s also wondering where his next meal is coming from and where he’s going to sleep that night. Anyone who could seriously state that has clearly led a life of financial privilege.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Peter Houlihan

4 years 8 months ago

I’m currently on the dole if it helps.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Peter Houlihan

4 years 8 months ago

As in, if theres a critical mass of unemployed men then they might start to question their situation.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

8ball

4 years 8 months ago

When one is worried about starvation, caring for one’s family, and losing their home… It’s not really conducieve to philosophical ponderings on the worth of a person.

Maslow’s Hierarchy man.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Peter Houlihan

4 years 8 months ago

The scenario described by the end of men article was one where women were fulfilling men’s traditional place. Against this background men and their families would have all or most of the lower tiers of Manslow’s hierarchy fulfilled.

Manslow regardless, any major shift in one gender role necessitates a shift for the other. I don’t think its something people could ignore.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

rapses

4 years 8 months ago

I see you believe that Hanna Rosin is the incarnation of Cassandra whose prophecy which nobody believes would certainly come true.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Peter Houlihan

4 years 8 months ago

Not really, I’m not sure if it’d actually happen. Just that if it does it’ll mean men having to change.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

Mad Adam

4 years 8 months ago

You seem to be assuming that one would be using 100% of their waking time to resolve those issues. Not so. Maybe the guy goes out for 5-6 hours a day trying to land a job. He still has all evening to spend with his thoughts. Ultimately, the critical mass idea is that some men just wouldn’t be able to find jobs, period. They would have to change their worldview so that they could maintain the idea that “I’m basically a good person”. The worldview that would change is “Good men provide for their families”, he would just accept that… Read more »

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

fly

4 years 8 months ago

or maybe they will just become depressed and withdraw from society due to their failure to adjust.

0

| ReplyShareHide Replies ∧

Guest

rapses

4 years 8 months ago

If there is a critical mass of unemployed men, there would be riots on street and not pondering about them being defined by job.

That could possibly happen but that pondering is going to take a back seat to finding a job in order to maintain the necessities, and if he is helping support a family (even if he is no the main breadwinner) then the ante is even higher for him to find new work. Not much room to ponder the meaning of what you do when when what you do is necessary for the survival of youself (and possibly others).