I focus almost exclusively on PvP, whether solo, small gang, or large bloc warfare. In the past, I've been a miner, mission runner, and faction warfare jockey. I'm particularly interested in helping high-sec players get into 0.0 combat.

Thursday, August 27, 2015

The Bulldozing of Providence

When you commit to establishing a voice and a tone in a
community, there are a lot of advantages.
People recognize you when you fly through space. You gain the platform to share your thoughts
and – importantly – improve them by having your readers point on where you’re
wrong. It’s a nice thing, most of the
time.

But, you also make a promise to speak honestly about the
things that affect you, your mission, and your readers’ trust in you. Sometimes, that means you need to address the
giant elephant sitting in the room, even though you may not want to.

If you fail to deliver on those expectations, you risk
alienating any credibility you have.
Sometimes, you need to comment on major happenings in Eve even though it
can be awkward. This is one
of those times.

So, here it goes.

You may have noticed, if you read reddit or the forums, that
Goonswarm has been attacking Providence. You might think that, as a
member of Goonswarm, I’d be down there doing my part to burn down everything
Provi built over the past five years.
After all, I was looking forward to these very sov exercises when the attack
was announced.

I’ve participated in CFC campaigns for the past four
years. I was an eager soldier from the
beginning of the campaign to conquer the north.
I deployed three times to Delve, twice to Fountain, and followed the coalition
for every major campaign. The story of
the CFC is my story as well.

But I’m sitting out of this Providence campaign. I just can’t support the reasons behind
it. Recently, I’ve spoken a lot about
the kinds of fights I really look forward to.
I’ve commented in the past how I’ve tried to embed a corp thief, but I
couldn’t bring myself to steal from them.
I’ll happily kill someone, burn down someone’s space, or pressure them
into a failcascade. But when I do, I
want to do it for personal (read: personal/corp/alliance/coalition) gain.

When the details of FozzieSov came to light, the Imperium
announced an invasion of Providence
to test the new sov mechanics. At the
time, it sounded like a great strategy. Providence had residents
who would fight back, resisting attacks with all their might. They’ve proven tenacious defenders in the
past. And, as a force who has shown
little interest invasion outside of Provi and certain areas of Catch, they were
a “safe enemy – the lessons Provi learned would not be used against the
Imperium in the future.

To get the most out of such a test, I assumed it would naturally
include balanced battles to examine the possibilities from every possible
angle, as well as tactical attempts to overwhelm an opponent – to see how
blobbing works in the new system. Winning
wasn’t really important. The Imperium had
no interest in Provi long-term, so the key take-away would be constructing a
variety of scenarios to test the best response to each, right? Try to blitz some systems, try to ease into
others, try to use small gang skirmish tactics on others – even try to fight
under-manned to understand the tactics imperial enemies would use.

But then the invasion took a decidedly
different flavor. The goal wasn’t to
explore the possibilities, but rather to smash everything Provi had as quickly
as humanly possible with overwhelming force.
One of the stated goals was to use the opportunity to identify the most
cancerous doctrines and fits to ruin the enjoyment of the enemy, apply every
dirty trick, and leverage every overpowered mechanic to win as quickly as
possible. The experimentation wasn’t to
understand various tactics and how to counter them. It was to find the most exploitative method
possible to erode the fun of the enemy.
That plan didn’t involve generating interesting content, exploring the
facets of FozzieSov, or becoming familiar with the new system. It involved shitting all over someone because the Imperium can.

And for what purpose?
Under FozzieSov, no Imperium alliance has any interest in retaining a
single piece of Provi territory. No
moons, no systems, no stations… Provi will take everything back and rebuild, albeit
from scratch. Without testing how a
motivated group like ProviBloc defends in various situations – and testing
those scenarios again and again over time as each side learns – there really is
no point to this other than, “Let’s learn how to dumpster an entrenched group
as quickly as possible!”

And the kicker is that lesson isn’t even particularly relevant. Because the mechanics of FozzieSov suggest
that the Imperium already owns as much space as it would wish to manage,
they’ll have little reason to ever invade and conquer someone’s space
again. Unless resource distribution
across the galaxy shifts, the Imperium will likely never need or choose to move
to another area of space (conquer and live there).

So, the lessons aren’t going to be valuable or
relevant. It’s looking more and
more like this is meant to ruin someone's day. Is this what passes for content in modern
null-sec? A war with no prospect for gain and limited content value?

Now, I know a lot of you will say, “You’ve just been naïve… Goons
always say ‘We don’t want to ruin the game, we want to ruin YOUR game.’”. But every decision the CFC made since I’ve
been a part of it had a clear tactical or strategic purpose. The conquest of the north was to shore up
revenue and complete the control of a region with natural borders it could
easily defend. The war against Test was
an attempt to deal with a threat that appeared capable of creating a
destabilizing force on the CFC’s border and unifying all of its enemies. Burn Jita is an economic interdiction with
market manipulation at its heart, as well as a net positive revenue stream from
loot. Even the Fountain war and the
burning of NC. in the past year had strategic purposes.

But this Scouring of Providence…
I don’t see any tactical or strategic reason.
I’ve never believed any of the jealous complaints about the Imperium
before. Always before, while the CFC’s
plans have burned whole regions to the ground, they were burned for
purpose. And I’m totally on board with
that. I'll happily raid the nearby village to steal their cattle, gold, and
farmlands, but I'm not keen on burning all the good stuff just to burn it.

I’m very unsettled by this Provi war. The conqueror in me is unfulfilled, because
the Imperium will abandon the space when it’s finished. The Viking in me doesn’t see any profit in
it. The Diogenes in me doesn’t see the pride
or satisfaction of executing a bound prisoner. It's like the Red Wings considering themselves champions for obliterating a pee-wee team. (A bit strained, since Provibloc is a capable force, but I had to reference South Park sometime...)

So I’m sitting this one out. I’m sure there will be a lot of great fights
that Imperium and Provi members will enjoy, and I don’t begrudge anyone for
enjoying themselves. But for me, I see
only a net loss for the gameworld from such a brutal attack whose intention is
to find the best way to strip fun out of the new system.

This is a game, after all, and I try to remember that on the other side are players
deserving of respect. Crush them, certainly. But do it with respect.

35 comments:

As a provi pilot, the goon invasion has been a lot of fun and a great learning experience (e.g. how to deal with an overwhelming force). I've had a blast this week, wrecking goon Mach fleets and all.P.s. amarr victor

I absolutely think that's the purpose. I'm concerned about poking the balloon with shards of glass when the latex is already stretched thin. Eve's player count seems a bit precarious to try to actively ruin.

Welcome to Goonswarm. It's nice to see you're starting to see them for what they are. You still have a bit of rose tinting on those glasses though. If you think Goon Recruitment scams, burn jita, highsec ganking, etc are good for the game you might want to look a little deeper at the negative impact those activities have on the subscriber numbers ;)

I assumed the strategic reason for this was unstated. That is to create fear. To show what they can do if someone goes up against them under FozzieSov.

Crush others before they crush you. What FozzieSov does is let the smaller guys theoretically attack the larger ones. Unless they are just too scared to realize it.

So if you're the largest one what's your strategy? Spend some effort to induce that fear before the masses realize they can individually and colllectively fight the largest entity and win. Because once that happens then CFC crumbles not just from external factors but from within when people with in realize they too can control their own destiny without being part of big brother.

So the first target of the war is the external forced, the secondary target is CFC members themselves. Give them this content and maybe they won't realize what FozzieSov offers them independently from CFC.

Will this strategy succeed? Maybe. But maybe if more people see it for the premeditated peremptory strike it is as a reflection CFC leaderships recognition of their own vulnerability, then this may just be the beginning of the end of the blue donut.

As a member of TNT, which worked alongside LAWN in a two-constellation area of operations, but also as a player who never took great pleasure in pounding on weaker foes, I have a somewhat different take.

My initial thoughts on the subject were much the same as yours. I didn't want to see The Imperium put its full weight into a methodical scourging of Provi just for the sake of doing it. Which was why I was surprised when the battle plan was released. The plan could have been to focus all Imperium alliances as we have in the past. Multiple combined fleets of capital and subcaps knocking down constellations one after the other like dominoes. Instead, the battle plan avoided the massing of Imperium forces and instead spread them out, which created a much higher degree of localized conflict. Generally, TNT and LAWN fought Yulai Federation in the EU timezone and Sev3rance in the US timezone. Although Sev3rance put up little to no organized resistance, a small cadre of pilots (who deserve medals) used guerilla tactics that were frustrating and caused the process to take far longer than it perhaps should have. On the other hand, Yulai Federation were downright warriors. In the end, we managed to squeak out the destruction of only a single iHub in space held by YF, and that came literally moments before a massive CVA fleet was about to stop even that from happening.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the opportunity to have abused the situation was there, but it didn't go that way. In many parts of Provi it was a hard won effort, or perhaps even a stalemate of sorts. I think a lot was learned on both sides, 4 days worth of content was created, and a good many of us got the chance to see how vastly different this system is compared to Dominion sovereignty. I also think that if the residents of Provi can take anything away from this, its that they might literally be the only nullsec bloc capable of withstanding an attack like this from The Imperium. Who else is left really that has that kind of cohesion and still bothers to hold space? Excluding the Russians where timezones create more of an issue than anything else, the rest are all "nomads".

Granted, The Imperium did not use all of the tools at its disposal, but the way Provi handled themselves is a testament to them as players. They didn't back down, and that's saying a lot. I think it also says something that, despite all the Grr Goon propaganda cultivated by everyone including Goons themselves, Goons and The Imperium didn't orchestrate a scourging of Provi. Perhaps it was different in other areas of the region, but from my lowly vantage point, Eastern Provi put up a helluva fight and I don't think that either the TNT/LAWN side or the YF/-7- side has anything to be ashamed about.

That's my honest take. Like I said, I don't get off on smacking around weaker foes just because I'm bored. Which is exactly why as soon as the jabber ping came out notifying everyone to head home, the first thing I did was tweet out a message recognizing Provi's efforts.

Some folks had been saying that they expected Provi to simply turtle up or let the Imperium pass, but I knew they'd put up a fight. Provi are proud, capable fighters who have withstood attacks by everyone. They deserve whatever space they reside in.

Lessons have evidently been learnt from the invasion. It seemed relatively balanced from the outside.

But if GSF comes back for round two in a few weeks it will no longer be inefficient. This will be the true test of their character - will they be content with proving their new doctrine in just a few constellations or will the entire region burn again?

Actually the real reason for it (attack Provi) is to serve as a deterrent from other null-sec powers attempting to attack the Imperium. (new nickname “imperil’um” as in attack us at your own peril).

I initially regarded this whole operation as an error, personally preferring to keep the cards close to the chest. But it is probability about time, that the dogs of war were given some exercise. But it high-lights the unassailable front of imperil’um within Eve overall. Internal senior failure or betrayal, general apathy or CCP intervention are remaining Hail Mary’s for the much needed in-stability which necessary for a game of conflict’s vibrant core.

But that's the great thing about FozzieSov. The Imperium is unassailable, but it's also more irrelevant than before. Even the greatest superpower is bottled up in one area of space now, and cannot permanently exert influence on every area of space at once.

I have to disagree with at least part of your complaints. While I can agree that this is a bit bloodthirsty for my tastes, we (as in Imperium FCs and higher command) learned quite a lot from the strategies used here. Both Monday and Wednesday I was out on field co-FCing with Asher Elias (and in some cases just plain FCing when he died) for about 6-8 hours both days. Some of the lessons we learned:- Artillery Claws are a nasty counter to trollceptors and entosis-Svipuls.- While having each alliance target a constellation to cover the entire region sounds great in theory, it can easily lead to strung-out forces. Focusing on one or two constellations at a time affords better coverage and provides better safety for hackers.- Defenders had better luck saving timers when working in groups of two to three and bouncing around capturing high-ADM nodes, rather than forming single large fleets. At times they had 4 minute captures to our 24 minute ones, which when combined with damps and jams to slow us down nearly lost us a few ihub fights.- Having proper doctrines stocked well is a must. Many times during the campaign did we run out of just about anything. Dictors, logi, tengus, svipuls, strontium, etc.

These are just a few points, but there were many things that got picked up on as needing work during the week. Just because the strategy was bolder and more relentless than you may have first anticipated doesn't mean we learned nothing. No plan is perfect, and we went in hard to see where the stresses would show. So to me it seems like a success, and not just in terms of isk destroyed. Provi guys put up a good fight for what they faced, and I thank you for giving me valuable experience as a newer FC in an untested sov system.

Sure, those are all lessons, but many of them are obvious. Militaries throughout history concentrate their forces for a reason, and history has proven the power of having smaller fighting units that combine to take on larger objectives (the power of the Roman legion ,for instance, with its cohort fighting units). Those aren't really new lessons.

And the vital role of logistics is one the Imperium learned time and again.

I don't doubt that there are other learnings beyond the ones you mentioned, but I feel like the opportunity was squandered because of the old thinking of, "We must win at all costs! Let's develop the most cancerous tactics!"

"And now I see that planning doesn't matter. Strategy doesn't matter. Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide."

Knowing the most brutal, soul-crushing tactics possible has always been the Imperium's ace-in-the-hole - the weapon they pull out when they're facing an actual strategic-level threat. Fozzie-Sov changed the rules significantly, though, so the old tactics are no longer necessarily relevant.

That means there's a very relevant strategic purpose to the Provi campaign: it's the Imperium's Bikini Atoll. A place to test their chosen WMD in safety before they need to use it in a real fight.

And if the process is bad for the game world... well, you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. The Imperium's leadership does seem to have 'not destroying EVE' on their list of objectives, but it appears to be a lower priority than 'not letting anyone take our spot at #1'.

If that's the case, where were the pings saying, "We need exactly 50 dudes, so we're outnumbered and can practice flexibility and overcoming superior numbers," or "No one dog-pile in this fight... we're evenly matched and want to test some battle tactics"?

Moreover:

a) What entities could pose a strategic level threat right now? There are none, and after the years necessary for that threat to develop, the game will be fundamentally different anyways, to the point that these lessons are irrelevant.

b) Why is the lesson of how to conquer territory relevant? The Imperium has no need to conquer any more territory; only a resource redistribution would justify that, and even then it's unlikely, as that shakeup would need to result in a rich area of space with enough territory for all the Imperium alliances to live near each other. Not gonna happen.

This strikes me as an attempt for relevance. Let's face it, the purpose of the Imperium right now is one-fold: to make isk. Any invasions are punitive only (no more ever-expanding borders), no one can crack "Fortress Gurista", and the limits on power projection mean the Imperium has no long-term influence on distant areas of space. What's the point anymore, other than profit?

Why would the Imperium need to test 'flexibility' and 'tactics'? That's MoA's game, not theirs. The Imperium only ever fights outnumbered by choice - they have the warm bodies to throw overwhelming force at anyone whenever they need to. If they're not in an actual fight for survival, it doesn't matter whether their tactics are good; dragging things out just means more content.

And you're right, there are no strategic threats - that's kind of the point. The Imperium does not suffer rivals. Perfecting the ability to "dumpster an entrenched group as quickly as possible" means that if anyone does look like becoming an actual threat they can be utterly destroyed before they do any real damage (and probably before they reach anything near parity with the Imperium. Preemptive strikes > fair fights).

The 'point' is simple: power. Being the biggest, baddest motherfucker in EVE, and not letting anyone even think about taking your throne away.

As a VOLT pilot I have to say so far the invasion has been great fun. My experience over the last couple of evenings (EU TZ) would indicate that no one was expecting us to put up this much of a fight.

As an example I was in Core's main fleet last night, the CFC/Imperium main fleets wouldn't engage (despite outnumbering us and flying T3 vs our T1/T2 mix). Pockets under attack were still able to put their own fleets up and push smaller CFC fleets out to the point where by the time we got anywhere close they were mostly dead and the survivors running.

We will get beaten by sheer numbers however the one thing we are proving is that the CFC cannot operate anything but 'The Blob' in order to beat it's opponents. I do wonder how long we can drag the conflict out for and how much damage MOA and co are doing in CFC's backyard whilst we do, a quick glance at DOTLAN shows that this is not insubstantial.

Provi has every reason to take pride in what they've done. I don't know who this "no one" was, but Provibloc has fought off every attacker to invade its space. They're very good at it. Very good at it. I expected nothing less than dogged persistence.

Imperium grunt here. The purpose of torching the IHUBs was to decrease the odds that, knowing their space wasn't really at risk because the Imperium didn't want it, Provi would just dock up and wait out the storm. The upgrade hits is what forced the fights, which was necessary for the primary purpose of figuring out the mechanics of the new system.

Had we elected to remain in Provi and burn it all down, taking the stations and imposing 1b ISK docking fees like The Mittani originally suggested, I would be with you in feeling like we were being mean for no reason. But, of course (and I know your post predates this decision and might have been different if you could have foreseen the outcome), the Imperium elected to decamp and head back to the north after only four days, leaving something like half of the IHUBs intact, as well as most of the stations Freeported, at most.

At the time we left, we were still making progress, learning and adapting. Our sheer numbers would have nearly guaranteed us the ability to completely lay waste to the region through attrition if nothing else, had that been the actual as opposed to the public purpose of the invasion. Since it wasn't, we didn't. That's worth noting.

No one has to "force" a fight in Provi. It is what we do. Every night we wait to see who is going to try our space because they want to prey on the bad at pvp care bears that hold Provi and don't have sense enough to shoot neutrals. Doesn't mater if it is one new to the game pvp wanabee, or the might of the Imperium. Every night they provide us with the 'content" the rest of the game is crying for and we arange for as many as possible to go home in pods. Yall come back now. A Provi Care Bear

It is no secret Mittani has wanted sovereignty to change so that he could do Genghis Khan style scorched earth deployments. It seems this is what is happening, and as citadels come in to replace outposts, this will be precisely what Imperium will be able to do. I don't really know why this surprises or indeed disappoints you.

This strikes at, if not the heart, somewhere near the gut of the matter. We can agree that the CFC/Imperium is dedicated to being the king of sovereignty, right? Their actions are dedicated to being #1. They want to have all the advantages.

Well, they're failing on two or three front right now, and they can't get their position back.

The first front: Fights.

Pre-Phoebe, there was no contest for 'big fights'. Null-sec was the space to be, and the best space in Null was Goons.

Phoebe changed this. Null-sec isn't the only game in town: Low-sec is hitting those 100-300 man fights that hit the 'no-tidi, good fun' golden zone. Why be in Null, if you're a fighter? Low-sec is much more attractive, and you can bring out much shinier ships: more skin, more risk, more fun!

The second front: Relevance.

Pre-Pheobe, Pre-Aegis, there were two coalitions,one with one advantage, Numbers, and the other, Supers. They were the place to be for the 'Clash of Empires'. This was *the* apotheosis of Eve, the ultimate contest.

And then it ended. Not with a bang, but a whimper...

This presented a problem: what do you do when your enemy has disappeared? Rome's confederation against the Huns ended as soon as the threat was removed. The CFC/Imperium is far too tightly bound for that.

On a 'news making' scale, there's nothing left for them. In Eve itself, Low-sec is making more signal from less noise. (It also suffers less from whinging.) Null-sec isn't making the front page of anything, even our own subreddit...

The rushing noise you hear? That's the sound of inevitability....

This is what the Provi Incident was meant to counter.

1) Keep PvPers interested in CFC/Imperium operations, they're essential in the new system. (Read Kasken's blog post, it is fascinating. I feel that you've missed out on an experience.)

2) Keep the Imperium as #1 Space Empire. The biggest, the scariest, the most successful.

Has it worked?

Providence remains. Amarr Victor.

Rob K.

(My 3rd 'front' was about the importance of Null-sec to CCP (marketing and player-base), but it ended up being too 'Null-sec is losing ground in general because of the players, and CCP is close to giving up on the area'.) My point stands though: Null-sec isn't going to continue to be the be-all-and-end-all of marketing like it has been previously.

I'm finishing up my thinking on the Logistics post also, so expect a reply from me when my internet isn't broken. :)

I see your point and agree. Imperium are so huge it would require a game breaking mechanic to diminish their power. We all know this and have for some time. We also know that Imperium/Goons was founded on the principle of breaking the game, which turns out to be of great benefit to CCP. Basically Goons are a large, free(in fact, paying) QA asset with the numbers to insure many new mechanics get adequately tested.

The purge of Provi happens to warm my heart to no end(ex-renter with a grudge here), so I'm actually quite pleased with the invasion. If you have a sov group like CVA that exists at the whim of the major sov coalitions, then it follows they're going to get reamed from time to time. That's the price you pay for the role of a mini-me version of an independent sov group. Perhaps CVA's head got too big after all the limited mini-wars they've seen over the summer. Provibloc handled themselves well under these artificially restrained conditions, and maybe there was one to many 'amarr victor' meeps with accompanying head swell. Thus came the full badmotorfinger reality mallet to remind them of their place?

And there in lies what I think is the continued failure of Null Sov - all but a handful of large groups exist in Null on the whim of others, and are expected to be play toys and know their place. Sounds like a lot of fun...

In a game that isn't exactly ticking over healthily right now, un-fun changes are a problem.

I think CCP wants to create a system where 'un-fun' behaivours like the CFC's are penalised, so it fades away. (Gradually, or in fire, I know not).

IF CCP can lure away the talented PvPers to low, or WHs, or elsewhere, then the undefended farmlands would be a good target, right? The problem is that the untrained farmers are too good at fighting. Hence Fleetwarp changes, the removal of orbit, keep at range...

As a Provi Alliance CEO you may be surprised to hear that when the initial reason was given for the attack on Provi, I accepted it in good faith.

If proof were needed that the new Sov Mechanics were poorly conceived & never going to help new pilots establish an Alliance in 0.0 then I would willingly participate.

However, listening to the Mittani's broadcast before the assault I became increasingly disappointed. The rationale had devolved to those of a School Boy Bully.

Moreover it all seemed incredibly short sighted. In the current climate we should be actively promoting growth & investment in Eve. This campaign simply revolved around destruction of infrastructure that many pilots had invested much time & effort into. It served no purpose & achieved nothing of worth.

The relish with which the Mittani declared this would cost Provi Billions of Isk & 100 days of rebuild, whereupon he could do it all again, was almost sickening, It sounded like someone who was bored with a toy & wanted to see if he could brake it.

If you only ever PvP then I am sure it is hard to appreciate but having played this game for 10 years I have seen the effects morale has on a group that has had everything they worked months even years for, snatched away.

The question pilots need to ask themselves is why any new player would participate in a game where everything can be taken from you on a whim & a couple of spare days?

Don't get me wrong I completely subscribe to the risk vs reward aspect of Eve. You can't appreciate the game properly until you experience the ups & downs of growth. I even enjoyed the combat this invasion gave but this campaign only demonstrated that Eve is completely out of balance.

Project further to the advent of destructible stations & another campaign of this kind. I suspect we will see the end of 0.0 investment & probably the death knell of the game itself.

The one shining light of all this is that someone from the opposite side recognises it & stood up to be counted. Thank you Talvorian Dex

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