I have a lot of issues with that scene and would like to discuss it here.

1. The White council was not a four member union. Besides Gandalf, Saruman, galadirel and Elrond there were many elves (especially Cirdan) and if IIRC Radagast too. So I'm still not sure if it should be called the White Council. And I'm surprised because I think it could have been easily "filled up". Like all the unnamed dwarves and elves present at the Council of Elrond, here too elves could have been there. In a 4-member meeting the council seems sort of empty.

2. Disagreeing Saruman. I know that's what Saruman should have been doing at this time, but his behaviour was so obvious that even a kid could tell from seeing that he was scheming some plans of his own. And what's more Gandalf seems to be intimidated by his presence. When Saruman first appears Gandalf first looks uncomfortable before he puts on a fake-ish smile. This shouldn't have been. Okay, Gandalf is not expected to be best buds with Saruman at this point but he admired Saruman's wisdom and power. That clearly doesn't show up.

3. I don't like Gandalf answering to everyone's questions in the scene at all. It makes him look inferior to all the three. Why does he have to give proofs and all? Why does he have to account for Elrond's question about orcs etc etc? Being a Maia, he's obviously superior to both Elrond and Galadriel. And the scene actually looks more like the two of them (leaving out Galadriel) interrogating Gandalf. Don't like a bit.

4. Telepathetic Galadriel? In FOTR I imagined Galadriel to be able to talk telepathetically to Frodo because he was less powerful than her. But in the council scene, it seems Galadriel is superior to Saruman himself! She and Gandalf enjoying a telepathetic conversation while Saruman goes on babbling! This is so false. Again, Saruman is the superior one since he's a Maia. If Galadriel and gandalf are using telepathy, it's expected that it won't get unnoticed by Saruman!

5. This is from the next scene between Galadriel and Gandalf. Why does Gandalf bow in front of Galadriel? Galadriel is in no way superior in power and knowledge than Gandalf. It's actually the opposite. I'm afraid this is on the basis of Philippa Boyens' completely false statement about Galadriel being the most powerful being on Middle-earth. And if the both of them are friends, then I don't think friends usually bow to each other.

Well, that's the lot. I found the scene quite boring. The performances were awesome, really! I cannot imagine the two most powerful wizards and two most powerful Elves in a single scene, but if they had kept the facts straight it could have been so much better. I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?

1. The White council was not a four member union. Besides Gandalf, Saruman, galadirel and Elrond there were many elves (especially Cirdan) and if IIRC Radagast too. So I'm still not sure if it should be called the White Council. And I'm surprised because I think it could have been easily "filled up". Like all the unnamed dwarves and elves present at the Council of Elrond, here too elves could have been there. In a 4-member meeting the council seems sort of empty.

Agree with this... however, I guess they thought it might be easier to shoot this cinematically with only 4 people. It has something of a scene that could also play out in a stage production. This gave it some weight which I liked.

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2. Disagreeing Saruman. I know that's what Saruman should have been doing at this time, but his behaviour was so obvious that even a kid could tell from seeing that he was scheming some plans of his own. And what's more Gandalf seems to be intimidated by his presence. When Saruman first appears Gandalf first looks uncomfortable before he puts on a fake-ish smile. This shouldn't have been. Okay, Gandalf is not expected to be best buds with Saruman at this point but he admired Saruman's wisdom and power. That clearly doesn't show up.

I did not find it too obvious - especially since Elrond tends to agree with Saruman. It was clear that Saruman and Gandalf had very different personalities, but I did not think Saruman came across as obviously evil.

I do agree that Gandalf's welcome of Saruman should have shown more appreciation. Close to their welcome in FotR. However, it does make sense in the way that gandalf surely must think "This is going to be much more complicated than I had hoped".

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3. I don't like Gandalf answering to everyone's questions in the scene at all. It makes him look inferior to all the three. Why does he have to give proofs and all? Why does he have to account for Elrond's question about orcs etc etc? Being a Maia, he's obviously superior to both Elrond and Galadriel. And the scene actually looks more like the two of them (leaving out Galadriel) interrogating Gandalf. Don't like a bit.

Well, I guess this starts the whole "It is not me you must answer to" debate again.

What I got was this: Ignoring Saruman's darker schemes, he and Elrond came across to me as holding on to the hope that Evil - although not completely detsroyed at the end of the Second Age - was weakened enough not to be a major threat for Middle-earth anymore.

Their disbelief reminded me of the behaviour of some European leaders during Hitler's rise and the politics of appeasement.

I think it is very natural - and can be observed regularly, especially in a political context - that those who do not want to hear a certain message react (often unfairly)strongley against the person who contradicts their view/hope. A "don't kill the messenger" kind of thing.

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4. Telepathetic Galadriel? In FOTR I imagined Galadriel to be able to talk telepathetically to Frodo because he was less powerful than her. But in the council scene, it seems Galadriel is superior to Saruman himself! She and Gandalf enjoying a telepathetic conversation while Saruman goes on babbling! This is so false. Again, Saruman is the superior one since he's a Maia. If Galadriel and gandalf are using telepathy, it's expected that it won't get unnoticed by Saruman!

To me that just showed the very close connection between Gandalf and Galadriel. If she was that superior she could have argued much stronger for Gandalf's case - but she doesn't.

Also Elrond's "it is not me you must answer to" is really more of a reflection that Elrond knows that Gandalf will at least listen to her, since he must be aware of the strong relationship between the two. Given their history dating back to Valinor, it makes perfect sense to me that she is one of the only persons in Middle-earth Gandalf actually would listen to or even change an opinion - not because she is superior, but because she also touches him emotionally.

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5. This is from the next scene between Galadriel and Gandalf. Why does Gandalf bow in front of Galadriel? Galadriel is in no way superior in power and knowledge than Gandalf. It's actually the opposite. I'm afraid this is on the basis of Philippa Boyens' completely false statement about Galadriel being the most powerful being on Middle-earth. And if the both of them are friends, then I don't think friends usually bow to each other.

To me, this portrays again a) the deep appreciation Gandalf has for her, b) reflects how almost all "male" characters seem to react to her (book and movie) who talk to her - a certain gravity and aura she seems to have, which does not only come from power. Plus, he seems to approach several people in Middle-earth in a way that does not portray that they are actually beneath his power status (Theoden and Denethor come to mind). In that way Gandalf often "bows" to the hierarchies of Middle-earth, without emphasizing his own status as a Maia.

As for PB's statement... this was certainly not necessary and of course gives a lot of fuel to those who perceive the scene differently to the way I do, for example, but thinking about what has been said over the years by those people on Middle-earth in some interviews, documentaries or whatever, I do not get why people go so hyperbole about this one. So far I think she has mentioned this once and I did not get the feeling it translated badly to the script as of yet - but - logically - people who think of the scene what you stated above will diagree and argue it is meant to show Galadriel as the most powerful.

But personally, I did not get that feeling at all, and I really, really liked the "political" feel of the whole thing.

Yes. Radagast was technically a member of the Council, but...
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Even Tolkien wrote that Radagast neglected his obligations to the White Council in favor of seeing to the welfare of the birds and beasts of Middle-earth. I look at the Council meeting of AUJ as an emergency meeting of the core members rather than a full meeting. I still hope to see a more representative version of the Council in the subsequent films ('though I'm not holding my breath).

Yes, I agree that Saruman was a bit over-played.

Unfortunately, Gandalf was stuck with the burden of proof in the matter of the return of Sauron. As to bowing to Galadriel, well, she is a queen of her people and this is a quasi-medieval setting. Manners are expected. 'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

Unfortunately, Gandalf was stuck with the burden of proof in the matter of the return of Sauron. As to bowing to Galadriel, well, she is a queen of her people and this is a quasi-medieval setting. Manners are expected.

... also goes together with Tolkien's way of "putting female characters on pedestals". Something certainly true for the way he describes Galadriel (and also Arwen and Luthien) imho.

Gandalf was on the defensive because he was presenting some fairly extraordinary claims at that particular time. Thus, the burden of proof was on him to convince the others that there was some plausbility to the idea that certain signs - trolls daring to come down from the mountains, Orc-packs attacking the Company on the road, the Morgul-blade's appearance - pointed to Sauron's return.

Regarding the more limited representation of Middle-Earth's "guardians" in the film's White Council scene, I can understand why Peter chose Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf: they have already been firmly established as figures of great importance in previous films. I think it would have been too cluttered if we had several other characters, none of whom we were ever introduced to in the original trilogy, talking with the Core Four, offering their own opinions, etc. We might see Radagast make an appearance in a future meeting (his absence during the first one makes sense, given that he's long left the more civilized places of Middle-Earth for the forest), but I wouldn't expect any others to join in.

Agreed about Philippa Boyens' comment about Galadriel being "the most powerful being in Middle-earth"
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Now I like to consider myself a fairly tolerant person and I've borne most of the film changes without batting an eyelid (mainly because many of them were inevitable). But I'm not sure I'll ever forgive Boyens or the others for this. It's not as dramatic as some of their other notions, but boy they've got the wrong end of the stick, and, quite frankly, it's an insult to Gandalf. "True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."

I agree with almost everything you said. The White Council scene was one that I was really looking forward to and I hate to say it is one of the most irritating scenes among all of the movies.

I'll just add to the original post by saying it's so annoying to see Gandalf "answer to the others" and grimace at the sound of Saruman's voice when he realizes he's there yet in FoTR he's so happy to see him.

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I have a lot of issues with that scene and would like to discuss it here.

1. The White council was not a four member union. Besides Gandalf, Saruman, galadirel and Elrond there were many elves (especially Cirdan) and if IIRC Radagast too. So I'm still not sure if it should be called the White Council. And I'm surprised because I think it could have been easily "filled up". Like all the unnamed dwarves and elves present at the Council of Elrond, here too elves could have been there. In a 4-member meeting the council seems sort of empty.

2. Disagreeing Saruman. I know that's what Saruman should have been doing at this time, but his behaviour was so obvious that even a kid could tell from seeing that he was scheming some plans of his own. And what's more Gandalf seems to be intimidated by his presence. When Saruman first appears Gandalf first looks uncomfortable before he puts on a fake-ish smile. This shouldn't have been. Okay, Gandalf is not expected to be best buds with Saruman at this point but he admired Saruman's wisdom and power. That clearly doesn't show up.

3. I don't like Gandalf answering to everyone's questions in the scene at all. It makes him look inferior to all the three. Why does he have to give proofs and all? Why does he have to account for Elrond's question about orcs etc etc? Being a Maia, he's obviously superior to both Elrond and Galadriel. And the scene actually looks more like the two of them (leaving out Galadriel) interrogating Gandalf. Don't like a bit.

4. Telepathetic Galadriel? In FOTR I imagined Galadriel to be able to talk telepathetically to Frodo because he was less powerful than her. But in the council scene, it seems Galadriel is superior to Saruman himself! She and Gandalf enjoying a telepathetic conversation while Saruman goes on babbling! This is so false. Again, Saruman is the superior one since he's a Maia. If Galadriel and gandalf are using telepathy, it's expected that it won't get unnoticed by Saruman!

5. This is from the next scene between Galadriel and Gandalf. Why does Gandalf bow in front of Galadriel? Galadriel is in no way superior in power and knowledge than Gandalf. It's actually the opposite. I'm afraid this is on the basis of Philippa Boyens' completely false statement about Galadriel being the most powerful being on Middle-earth. And if the both of them are friends, then I don't think friends usually bow to each other.

Well, that's the lot. I found the scene quite boring. The performances were awesome, really! I cannot imagine the two most powerful wizards and two most powerful Elves in a single scene, but if they had kept the facts straight it could have been so much better.

This has precedent in the books. Here's a passage from The Return of the King:

Quote

For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.

Now, I don't know if Saruman would have been able to guess that they were communicating like this, and I'm sure he would have been able to if he'd wanted to, but the idea is definitely from Tolkien. "...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen

I definitely agree with you 100% on the council. My hope is that this was just an Executive Officer meeting, if you will, and that others, hopefully Cirdan and Glorfindel above all others, may be featured in a larger council assembly. The visual companion to the movie says the four are members of The Council but not its only members. I think 7 members would have been good, given all the key book candidates a seat, but still have been visibly and notably smaller than the Council of Elrond.

The Saruman and Gandalf dynamic didn't bother me. Saruman was long jealous of Gandalf and made a point of trying to contradict him publicly amongst The Elves, who loved Mithrandir better. I would have liked more challenge from Sir Ian here though. . . something of the Gandalf who blew magic smoke rings in Saruman's face and made them dissapear when annoyed.

I don't mind the back and forth between Gandalf and Elrond and Saruman, beyond what I mentioned above. He seemed on more than equal footing with Elrond here. My larger problem was with certain aspects of Galadriel's interaction. I think Saruman's reaction to her commanding him to "let him speak" was appropriately spot on. A wtf expression. lol

I didn't mind her telepathy. I DID mind, and agree with you, that she seemed to be instructing Gandalf as to what to do. The "show me" line was too imperious for my taste.

I couldn't agree more about 5. I have posted on it myself. I would have liked the respect and reverance to have been more obviously reciprocated. She KNOWS what he ACTUALLY and REALLY IS. That should matter. The slight bow should have been reciprocated. It would underscore just how high in esteem she holds him, this Mighty Spirit in man like form whom she desired to see lead The Council. . . instead she seems, at points, to be giving directions to an adjutant. I liked the intimacy between them but NOT the hierarchal dynamic.

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I have a lot of issues with that scene and would like to discuss it here.

1. The White council was not a four member union. Besides Gandalf, Saruman, galadirel and Elrond there were many elves (especially Cirdan) and if IIRC Radagast too. So I'm still not sure if it should be called the White Council. And I'm surprised because I think it could have been easily "filled up". Like all the unnamed dwarves and elves present at the Council of Elrond, here too elves could have been there. In a 4-member meeting the council seems sort of empty.

2. Disagreeing Saruman. I know that's what Saruman should have been doing at this time, but his behaviour was so obvious that even a kid could tell from seeing that he was scheming some plans of his own. And what's more Gandalf seems to be intimidated by his presence. When Saruman first appears Gandalf first looks uncomfortable before he puts on a fake-ish smile. This shouldn't have been. Okay, Gandalf is not expected to be best buds with Saruman at this point but he admired Saruman's wisdom and power. That clearly doesn't show up.

3. I don't like Gandalf answering to everyone's questions in the scene at all. It makes him look inferior to all the three. Why does he have to give proofs and all? Why does he have to account for Elrond's question about orcs etc etc? Being a Maia, he's obviously superior to both Elrond and Galadriel. And the scene actually looks more like the two of them (leaving out Galadriel) interrogating Gandalf. Don't like a bit.

4. Telepathetic Galadriel? In FOTR I imagined Galadriel to be able to talk telepathetically to Frodo because he was less powerful than her. But in the council scene, it seems Galadriel is superior to Saruman himself! She and Gandalf enjoying a telepathetic conversation while Saruman goes on babbling! This is so false. Again, Saruman is the superior one since he's a Maia. If Galadriel and gandalf are using telepathy, it's expected that it won't get unnoticed by Saruman!

5. This is from the next scene between Galadriel and Gandalf. Why does Gandalf bow in front of Galadriel? Galadriel is in no way superior in power and knowledge than Gandalf. It's actually the opposite. I'm afraid this is on the basis of Philippa Boyens' completely false statement about Galadriel being the most powerful being on Middle-earth. And if the both of them are friends, then I don't think friends usually bow to each other.

Well, that's the lot. I found the scene quite boring. The performances were awesome, really! I cannot imagine the two most powerful wizards and two most powerful Elves in a single scene, but if they had kept the facts straight it could have been so much better.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Make a comment during this sequence, something to the effect of "Oh, since you're not paying attention to what I'm saying..." (obviolusly not a direct quote) and then I forget the rest of the line. I think it's right before Lindir comes up, correct me if I'm wrong? But I guess my point is that Saruman, at the least, seems to acknowledge the fact that Galadriel and Gandalf are clearly not listening to a word he is saying (hence Saruman's very soft and muted speech). And also, Saruman isn't shown on screen during this exchange between the two. I doubt Saruman was just sitting there staring off into the distance as he is criticizing Gandalf's actions. I would think, since Galadriel is standing directly across from where he is sitting, he is probably watching her very intently. Who knows, maybe he even turns around to see if Gandalf is paying attention, too. At that point, he could probably put two and two together and see they are communicating in some way (telepathically, of course).

That's how I pictured the scene, but I know that's a very subjective moment.

I always assumed that Galadriel and Gandalf's connection via the rings gave them the capability for such a private interaction.

Quite True - he almost gave her a look like - oh well, here is the (more powerful) mother-in law checking in on me again
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Most people hav answer the statements pretty well. I didn't mind the White Council, it served its purpose. Here's some random observations:

No one seems to remember that Galadriel is also a ring bearer and Gandalf has a ring, too. They have a private channel com unit.

Elrond would defer to Galadriel because, well, she's his mother-in-law. (obviously they don't go into that in the movies because of the whole backstory and rights problem) :) ***

Yes, I liked the whole scene very much - and Galadriel knew Gandalf from Valinor, etc. - and I did smile - it looked like he gave Galadriel a look like, oh well, here is the mother in law again telling me I am a screw-up, etc. . .

Somewhere in the History of Middle-earth series (can't remember where off the top of my head) the Valar are described as communicating similarly. The telepathic ability is just something that can be learned, I guess, at least among the Wise.

As for the scene itself, I couldn't tell you what Saruman says. I've only seen the film once fully and a few scenes twice (this being one of them). I just don't know the scene well enough to be able to tell you any specifics (just generalizations). "...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen

1. Yes, there were more members in the White Council but apart from Celeborn (who, though a likely member, isn't even a confirmed member) none of them had been previously introduced, so to add Cirdan or others would have required introducing new characters, which would have taken an unnecessary amount of time for a mere subplot. I don't think having random, unnamed characters in the background would have worked because this is meant to be a very specific set of very wise and powerful people, unlike the Council of Elrond where a much larger variety of representatives of different races were summoned.

2. Was Saruman's behavior really that obvious or do we just think that because we already know what he's going to become? Elrond agreed with him and was backing him up but nobody seems to have trouble with that because we know that he's good. I don't think Saruman came across as unnecessarily evil - proud and a bit arrogant maybe, but that's pretty much in sync with how he was, even before he "abandoned reason for madness".

3. How does having to answer questions make him the inferior one? It just makes him the one with the latest intelligence. Besides, at this time point in time he actually is inferior to Saruman who is the head of the council and therefore well within his rights to be asking questions.

4. Galadriel's ability to see into people's minds is not an invention of the movies and I'm not sure how it could be interpreted as a sign of superiority. Even the maiar aren't capable of everything but each of them have their own special set of strengths and skills. Saruman's are his voice and his skills with machinery (and I'm not saying that's all he's capable of, but those are his greatest strengths). If he can't intercept an exchange of thoughts between another maia and a high elf whose special gift happens to be mind-reading, and who both share the connection of the three rings which Saruman does not possess, how does that make him inferior?

5. Bowing can also be a simple greeting. It's not like Gandalf is kneeling down in front of Galadriel and professing to be her loyal servant. Also, there is a huge difference between being inferior and being humble.

All in all, I just don't get all this complaining about inferiority vs. superiority, and who should be bowing down to whom, especially when it comes to Gandalf. Isn't he a Grey Pilgrim by his own choice? The very fact that he doesn't want superiority is where his greatest wisdom (and superiority) lies. The fact that he is of maiar origin is insignificant when he's the one who chooses not to place himself above anyone else. Gandalf's humility is one of his greatest attributes and I think these films are doing a pretty great job of portraying him.

I didn't mean to say that the rings acted as the agents for the telepathy to occur, but were more of a representation of their connection and relationship that really was the source. Hope that makes sense? I realize that's a fine line, to which I'm not sure if I can exactly describe without coming across as contradictory to myself.

when i first saw that scene, i was definitely, "what the fingon?" the "answering to" issue, the bowing, all of it.

then i heard of the boyens quote, and i was like, "what the fingolfin?"

but i wonder at her exact words and context... did she associate gandalf with valinor (he's an emissary on a mission; middle earth isn't his home address ), and that's why she said that? but, even if she did, sauron is more powerful than galadriel.

perhaps phillipa just got swept away by galadriel's hypnotizing presence. she has that effect on people.

cheers -- aka. fili orc-enshield +++++++++++++++++++ the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

Is that in the conference in which that remark was made, Jackson stated (when introducing Boyens) that she probably knew more about Tolkien than anyone else in the audience, and then she came out with that remark, proving PJ's introduction to be completely and utterly incorrect! "True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."

. aka. fili orc-enshield +++++++++++++++++++ the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

at the time of the Hobbit, Sauron wouldn't necessarily have been more powerful than Galadriel, seeing as he was still regrouping. At least it would have been arguable.

But I think people in general are just getting way too carried away with Philippa Boyens's comment. So she misspoke. That happens. It was a leading question and I think most likely she just got carried away trying to prove a point of there being important female characters. I don't think it's anything that needs be put under a microscope or turned over again and again. The use of hyperboles is quite common and on another day, in response to a different question, she might have said Gandalf was the most powerful being, or Saruman...or even Bilbo.

(.) aka. fili orc-enshield +++++++++++++++++++ the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

being like when your boss walks into the room at work. You may respect (and maybe even like) your boss, but you don't necessarily want him/her around all the time. Especially after he was so happy to see Galadriel, obviously a close friend, for him to realise that Saruman was also there would be an understandable let down. And i never got any warmth in how Gandalf dealt with Saruman in FotR, either. He's respectful and is seeking his counsel and knowledge, but it was clear, to me at least, that they weren't close friends. And it's obvious in all the movies that they do not see eye to eye on anything. It seems to me that, before turns, at least, that Gandalf only tolerates Saruman, and avoids him when possible.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. Well, I do kind of, but then it sounds like a contradiction (like you said). I'll just trust that you know what you mean "...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen