I'm no expert by any means, but I'd look at a revolver for survival use. In Alaska it would be .44 mag or larger. A .357 would be the absolute minimum. As far as keeping it in the plane all the time go with stainless steel. I've looked at the Highpoint and am not impressed. As in anything you get what you pay for.

Keith

Wannabe Cubdriver

03-15-2005, 03:14 PM

Do you mean bear defence survival or keeping yourself fed survival. If bears or nasties are a concern I would go no smaller than a .44, maybe even a .454 Casull or .480 Ruger. If you just wanted to keep critters in the stew pot, a .22 Mag should do the trick. But hey, Im in Canada and cannot carry a handgun in the woods, so my opinion is not well educated.
Like WWhunter says, you get what you pay for.
One thing about a handgun, practice practice practice. The tool is no value to you unless you are proficient in its use.
Cheers!

CraigH

03-15-2005, 03:20 PM

How about a Thomspon Contender with an extra barrel or two? .22 or .410 for rabbits and small birds, .44 or larger for big game?

StewartB

03-15-2005, 03:23 PM

I prefer my old Mossberg 12 gauge. It's not worth much, but it packs a wallop.

However, while hunting, I carry a S&W .44 mag in a chest holster when I'm in bear country, including when I'm packing a big pack and rifle. In close quarters, I can manipulate a pistol faster and easier than a scoped rifle. And with a 44 I can deliver 6 Cor Bon solid bullets accurately and quickly, with good recoil recovery from the previous shot. That's my gripe about the big single-action pistols that are so popular. They kick butt, but you'll likely get one shot, maybe two, in the time I can squeeze 6. The potential damage I can quickly inflict, even with a miss or two, is comforting.

SB

N3243A

03-15-2005, 03:23 PM

I assume by survival gun, you want a "Do it all gun". Any handgun chambering is marginal for "survival" (except maybe the 454 Casull or 500 SW but these are high $$) but 40 S&W is good for a rabid fox at best let alone anything larger. If you want a cheap yet rugged and reliable "Alaska do it all handgun" get a Ruger Super Blackhawk Stainless in 44 Mag. used at a Gun show or pawnshop. Even new they are pretty cheap.

My choice for an airplane handgun for years was the double action Ruger Redhawk stainless 44 mag with the 5.5" bbl. The 7.5" bbl lengths are too long for packing around in my opinion. 44 Mag ammo is available everwhere and you can get hot loads for it from Buffalo Bore and Cor-Bon using hard cast heavy bullets for critters that bite. Also you can put shotshell loads into it for Ptarmigan and small game for food gathering.

For what it's worth, Bruce

D. Davis

03-15-2005, 03:56 PM

Hi,
I am with Stewart on the shotgun; Slugs, Shot, Flares, makes a versatile
weapon. With a pistol grip & 18" barrel, which detaches you can make it fit into an under-seat storage box and it packs a wallop.
Dave.

N816KC

03-15-2005, 04:25 PM

I've got to agree with Dave. A compact pump action shotgun is cheap, versatile and effective. It's also a lot easier to hit with when you're cold, wet, hungry and injured. I would get a stocked version, broken down it's still very compact and is much easier to shoot well than a pistol grip only.

mvivion

03-15-2005, 06:33 PM

I agree with the comments regarding the shotgun and its versatility. A note on the pistol grip suggestion, though is to find a folding stock, rather than a pure pistol grip stock. You'll find the first time you shoot a pure pistol grip stocked pump action shotgun that the recoil is less than pleasant, and the accuracy sucks. Really sucks. There are some pretty decent folding stocks out there.

As to storing the gun, any gun in an airplane, I'd be really careful. There's no way to lock most airplanes, and even if you were to lock it up, its easy to get in. If someone gets your gun out of there, then commits a crime with it, especially a nasty one, you can bet it'll be traced to you, and there is a very high liklihood you'll face civil action for leaving your gun laying around.

Personally, a gun is the last piece of survival equipment I feel is needed, in Alaska or elsewhere.

And, yes, I do carry a gun for bear protection, but I would never leave a gun in an airplane. Way too much risk of it disappearing, and I'd rather take my chances with a bear than with an attorney for the plaintiff. At least I trust bears, and kinda like them.

MTV

T.J.

03-15-2005, 10:19 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/Hinkle1/misc/870Rem.jpg

Forget the pistol, you might shoot yourself in the foot or really piss the Bear off.

skagwaypilot

03-15-2005, 10:31 PM

Our northern neighbors don't permit handguns, even as survival weapons.
Don't land in Canada with a pistol on board..

glassjet

03-15-2005, 10:34 PM

8)

Ursa Major

03-16-2005, 12:11 AM

Glassjet,

You need to define what you mean by a survival firearm. We covered this thread awhile back with the same basic array of opinions. Do you want to defend yourself against bears, people, hunger, or boredom?

A .22 pistol will do a lot if all you want is something to pot the odd grouse or ptarmigan. If you have an issue with bears, then a shotgun with slugs makes a whole lot more sense. Additionally, you can load shotshells for small game and some meteor flares to signal for help. I carry a single shot break open stainless 12 ga. with a 22" barrel that takes down and fits in my survival kit bag. It costs around $125. A stainless pumpgun works well also, though it is heavier and will cost at least twice as much.

Sidearms can be useful if you have the time and inclination to become proficient - sort of like flying a cub. Whatever you choose, become familiar with it and practice, practice, practice.

mvivion

03-16-2005, 12:40 AM

Glassjet,

Check the new state regs. The firearm requirement is gone. No longer required, nada, etc.

If you want something to get a squirrel burger with, get an AR 7 survival .22 takedown rifle.

Or, just forget the gun altogether, and you'll probably relax more, not having to worry about the dang thing.

MTV

N3243A

03-16-2005, 01:30 AM

I wouldn't even consider shooting a bear with a 44 unless it was coming down on me and than I would wait til he was close enough to shove the gun down his throat.....

Your first post mentioned survival. Survival implies large game killing ability and bear defense. If you're going to carry only one firearm in the airplane, and that firearm is going to be a handgun due to size and weight, that's the whole point of carrying a 44 mag revolver. No one is advocating that it's a good defensive choice but it's way better than smaller calibers for bear defense, is useful for plinking and recreational shooting with light loads.

If bear defense is not at all on the agenda for this gun you want, then just get whatever you like....why ask what we all carry? Depending on my mood and destination, I take Ruger 22's, 45 autos, Glock 40's... who cares, it's just a recreational decision at this point right?

And to Mike V. why should he relax more without a gun? Last I checked it was a federal offense to tamper, damage or vandalize an airplane. If his gun is stolen from the airplane and used in a crime, it's not like he left it "laying around", the airplane and it's environs are fairly sacrosanct. Having said that, I agree with you that one should remove firearms from the plane at the end of the day, on general principles for security, maintenance, useage elsewhere etc.

One final thought: As a firearms and airplane enthusiast, I feet one of the great priveleges we enjoy in Alaska is the ability to fly into the deep bush, land on public lands and shoot firearms recreationally, responsibly and safely where no one will ever hear your shots, and with no outside interference, with range rules, fees and limited range hours etc. I can't think of too many places in the lower 48 where you can do this.

glassjet

03-16-2005, 03:09 AM

Thanks guys for your input

cub_driver

03-16-2005, 03:15 AM

I have learned not to leave your survival equipment tucked away in your airplane and expect it to be there when you need it the most. I recommend taking a inventory of your survival equipment place it in a small soft sided pack and then take it in and out of the plane as you need it. The soft sided pack will be well appreciated if you need to hike. Being your not worried about the gun being stolen or rusting away you might want to invest into a higher quality gun that has proven reliability and is accurate (TC contender with scope). After all your buying it because your life may depend on it.

As far as caliber used to gather food a 22 LR, 22 mag or a 223 should do just fine. The big plus is you can carry a pocket full of bullets with you, in the event your sights are off :wink: and your out for a extended time.

Bear protection is a whole nother subject. First rule pay attention avoid the bear. Second rule if encountered give him room. Third rule if he charges stand your ground and hope his charge is false. If the first three rules are not applicable your going to want a 375 H&H. Myself I would be more worried about eating then being eaten.

Cub_Driver

mvivion

03-16-2005, 11:15 AM

CubDriver,

Good points all. I've always thought the TC Contenders with a couple barrels would be an excellent carry gun for an airplane, but always balked at the price. I've never shot one, but they look like very well made equipment, and offer a lot of options on caliber (but not .375).

Hey, a short barrel contender in .375: One round would take your mind off even a charging bear, I'd bet.....

MTV

aceherks

03-16-2005, 07:38 PM

:) My contender in 35Rem packs quite a punch and groups about 1" @ 100 yards. Maybe this with a .410 extra barell would be a pretty good combination.

Gary Reeves

03-16-2005, 08:10 PM

Carry what you know you can shoot.

I just love my modified Marlin .454 it is short, easy to swing, packs a punch and very much like the carbines I grew up using. I have put a lot of lead thru it.

I bought a new Scandium.44 Mag S&W for sholder carry, but I'll still lug that big Dan Wesson .44 mag until I think I can shoot the scandium as well.

Bullet placement is the entire game for survival.

I always get a chuckle about the folks that want to cary a smaller bore to kill food. There must be a lot more game in other parts of Alaska. If you want to eat carry fishing gear.

GR

snowblind

03-17-2005, 10:46 AM

Don't know it all but have been caught several times away from the Cub with no weapon when one was needed. Tried the Remington 12 ga. pump slugster (short barrel with all the trick stuff, knock down stock, quick release sling, five rounds, starting with "00" buckshot then every other round a slug. never carry it, too heavy, cumbersum, etc. Then pistols, they get the same way, too heavy if it gets the job done when your life depends on it. Then comes the Smith and Wesson .44 Magnum. It gets the super lightweight treatment this year as the Model 329 Airlite. Weighs only 28 ounces. Features include a Scandium N-size frame, Titanium cylinder and 4-inch stainless barrel inside a 6061 aluminum alloy barrel shroud. Yep it's not nice to shoot but you "will" carry it because you don't know it is there. Really, really lite. I carry it in the chest holster they sell here in Alaska. You can get get four to six rounds off in the time it takes to unslung the the pump shotgun. It's not for fun shooting. It will give you a sting that will remind you that you discharged it for minute or so. But it will hurt a lot less than a bear chewing on you while you are still conscious or destroying your aircraft in the middle of no where. Bears are one of the few mammals that don't kill their prey first before eating it!! The pistol is removed from the aircraft with the GPS after every flight.

Christina Young

10-18-2005, 01:44 PM

Dumb question from those of us that have to fly through Canada and therefore won't be carrying a handgun... in light of the new carry laws in Alaska, is it permitted to open carry long guns in non-rural areas? I.e. will anyone hassle me if I go walking down 4th Avenue in Anchorage with an 870 slung over my shoulder (hypothetically)? :wink:

Or when visiting the big city do you just leave it in your airplane (locked in pod) or in the hotel? Is that safe?

Ursa Major

10-19-2005, 12:15 AM

Dumb question from those of us that have to fly through Canada and therefore won't be carrying a handgun... in light of the new carry laws in Alaska, is it permitted to open carry long guns in non-rural areas? I.e. will anyone hassle me if I go walking down 4th Avenue in Anchorage with an 870 slung over my shoulder (hypothetically)? :wink:

Or when visiting the big city do you just leave it in your airplane (locked in pod) or in the hotel? Is that safe?

I'm willing to bet that nobody will hassle you if you carry an 870 down 4th Ave. - especially if you keep your finger on the trigger. Actually, you probably don't want to go into any bars, banks, or government buildings with any sort of a firearm. Carrying one in the open on the street is not illegal, but you might get a few looks from the tourists.

How do you lock your cargo pod? Is it a Firmin or Landes?

StewartB

10-19-2005, 12:21 AM

Why do you need a gun? Do you expect to piss somebody off?

Alaska law no longer requires pilots to carry firearms.

SB

Torch

10-19-2005, 12:26 AM

Dumb question from those of us that have to fly through Canada and therefore won't be carrying a handgun... in light of the new carry laws in Alaska, is it permitted to open carry long guns in non-rural areas? I.e. will anyone hassle me if I go walking down 4th Avenue in Anchorage with an 870 slung over my shoulder (hypothetically)? :wink:

Or when visiting the big city do you just leave it in your airplane (locked in pod) or in the hotel? Is that safe?

The last time I read the police blotter in Fairbanks about someone that carried a weapon in the open downtown they were picked up by the Fairbanks police and taken off of the street for being a public nuisance. Someone called the police and complained about them. They were not charged but they were removed from the street as to ease the worries of other people. I wouldn't carry openly in Fairbanks or Anchorage. I would virtually guarantee that you will get some attention from the local police.
A lot of people have the misconception that Alaska is wide open when it comes to weapons. Actually compared to some other states Alaska is pretty conservative as to what any ONE citizen can do with a gun. Each state/county/city have different laws/ordinances concerning weapons. My guess is you better know what the local laws are before you start trying to be John Wayne.

YELLOWMAULE

10-19-2005, 01:04 AM

JW aside, we carry two firearms aboard. The first is the combo .22/.410 rifle. lite, handy and a great game getter. The other is in the states, a model 29, .44 with 4" stainlesss and 305 gr Corbons. If in Canada, it's the Marlin guide gun in 45/70 with 505 gr bullets.
I enjoy going where I am no longer the top of the food chain, but don't feel an obligation to lay down. "If you kill it, eat it".

jr.hammack

10-19-2005, 04:48 AM

my two cent's worth ,and i don't claim to a expert on anything,but my own personal opinion.
i just ask to you to really think of what the final out come of thing's really going to heck,whether it's in town(where it's really scary)or in the wood's.do you really belive there is going to a law enforcement person
there to protect you,chance they will show up maybe in time to write the
report on what might have happened to your departure from from this
earth!
i try to not be in bad situation,but in the event of not being able to control
that,alway's try not to be out gunned.
most time's it's better to have too big of a firearm,than too little,or not
enough of them,unless you can't control the delivery of the mean's of
stopping what ever is getting ready to send you to the happy fly'n
ground's!
torch,probably taking your post incorrectly,but it scare's me to think alaska is being swayed to thinking the only one to be trusted with a
firearm,is law enforcment. i belive if we were still pack'n maybe the
thug's would think about it a little before they tried to take what you worked hard to obtain. now critter's that's just being the wrong place at the wrong time,(most of the time),you just have to decide to live or die!

it's just my opinon

jr.

Christina Young

10-19-2005, 06:22 AM

That's what I thought. It was only a hypothetical question, after seeing the recent headlines.

Why do you need a gun? Do you expect to piss somebody off?

Alaska law no longer requires pilots to carry firearms.

SB

Give me a break, SB. Just because they no longer require it, doesn't mean it's not a good idea. Why did they used to require it? Have those conditions that originally required it changed that dramatically, or have they just been changed to satisfy the forces of political correctness?

Also, I think your assertion that you only need a firearm when you are going to piss someone off is ludricrous. Let me guess.... do you belong to the Brady Bunch?

P.S. When you go on extended flying trips in remote areas, do you carry one with you? Why or why not?

Christina Young

10-19-2005, 06:27 AM

Each state/county/city have different laws/ordinances concerning weapons. My guess is you better know what the local laws are before you start trying to be John Wayne.

Torch, my understanding is that the new Alaska law that's going into effect says that no municipality can have stricter gun control laws than the state. Is my understanding correct?

BTW, I have no intention of behaving like John Wayne :o - I just wondered what to do when I fly into these populated areas. Maybe just rent a car and keep it in the trunk?

StewartB

10-19-2005, 09:50 AM

That's what I thought. It was only a hypothetical question, after seeing the recent headlines.

Why do you need a gun? Do you expect to piss somebody off?

Alaska law no longer requires pilots to carry firearms.

SB

Give me a break, SB. Just because they no longer require it, doesn't mean it's not a good idea. Why did they used to require it? Have those conditions that originally required it changed that dramatically, or have they just been changed to satisfy the forces of political correctness?

Also, I think your assertion that you only need a firearm when you are going to piss someone off is ludricrous. Let me guess.... do you belong to the Brady Bunch?

P.S. When you go on extended flying trips in remote areas, do you carry one with you? Why or why not?

I carry a gun when I have intentions to use one. Same goes for other tools. I've never been in a situation where I needed a gun except when I was hunting. My shotgun hasn't been in the airplane for a couple of years.

Do you carry a gun when you fly in New Jersey? How about when you visit the city?

If you're worried about survival, carry a sat phone. The availability of assistance is dramatically better than it's ever been here. It makes infinitely more sense to drop a dime than to play Grizzly Adams. If you feel you need a gun, do what everybody else does. Leave it in the plane.

Most visitors to Anchorage worry about having enough film, or ask what new restaurant is the best. You ask a public forum if you can walk the streets of a city carrying a rifle? Give ME a break.

SB

mvivion

10-19-2005, 10:32 AM

You know, Christina, Hand Grenades are much easier to conceal, whether in your car or your pocket......

Pretty effective on bears or perverts as well.

You can pack a firearm legally, in view, anywhere outdoors in Alaska. No bars, banks, etc,

Might get some attention if you marched into the mayor's office with a scattergun, as well. But that's just speculation, and probably depends on how bad the mayor's pissed off the police lately.

Your question is one that perplexes me as well, and got me into some serioius questioning by Canada Customs several years ago.

Got to Dawson, and the young Canada Customs guy went through the 20 questions: "Do you have any guns?" Nope, says I. Pause, stare. "Do you have any vegetables?" Nope. "Do you have anything else to declare?" Nope.

"You don't have any guns?" the guy says. Nope, says I. Pause, stare.

Finally, he says, "Okay, why don't you have a gun?" I cracked up. He's convinced I actually have a gun and am lying. I told him my plane doesn't lock and I don't want to carry a shotgun around his fair city, and I also don't trust the residents quite enough to leave the gun in an unlocked plane.

His response: "Oh, okay, I thought you were some kinda anti-gun nut".

But, short of installing gun lockers at every airport, I don't have a good answer for you. I will tell you that MOST airports in Alaska seem to be really blessed in that we don't have a lot of theft, but that could sure change.

So, I'd say, park your plane in a prominent place, with a good view of it from a busy roadway, leave the gun in there, and tie a large aggressive Doberman to one strut with a 50 foot leash.

MTV

Steve Pierce

10-19-2005, 10:38 AM

I took Christina's question to mean "what do you do with the gun once you make it to Anchorage." As in what would be the most secure place to store it while in town. I might be wrong though. 8)

Christina Young

10-19-2005, 10:56 AM

I carry a gun when I have intentions to use one.

So I guess you don't believe in being prepared for adverse events then. I'm sure those people who ever had to use one in self defense had no intentions of doing so that day either. I intend to bring one for insurance (i.e. survival), not intending to hunt.

Do you have car insurance? Why, if you never intend to use it? How about health insurance?

Do you carry a gun when you fly in New Jersey? How about when you visit the city?

No, but I'm never more than a day's walk out to civilization, worst case, in some parts of PA. In most cases maybe 5 minutes walk from civilization - and someone will probably have called 911 before I got a chance to do anything. :-) And for the most part, we don't have dangerous game (just black bears).

If you're worried about survival, carry a sat phone. The availability of assistance is dramatically better than it's ever been here. It makes infinitely more sense to drop a dime than to play Grizzly Adams. If you feel you need a gun, do what everybody else does. Leave it in the plane.

I do intend to carry a sat phone. I disagree completely with your assumption that help will be able to come immediately, however, or that there is NO risk of having to use it for protection. Just last year someone I know was stranded in the Wrangells. Because of weather, no one was able to come to get him for a week. He had a confrontation with a grizzly bear. He was lucky. He said he will never go in the bush again without a firearm for protection.

Christina Young

10-19-2005, 10:57 AM

I took Christina's question to mean "what do you do with the gun once you make it to Anchorage." As in what would be the most secure place to store it while in town. I might be wrong though. 8)

Steve, you are right. I think the best bet is to probably lock it in a car trunk.

Christina Young

10-19-2005, 11:01 AM

But, short of installing gun lockers at every airport, I don't have a good answer for you. I will tell you that MOST airports in Alaska seem to be really blessed in that we don't have a lot of theft, but that could sure change.

So, I'd say, park your plane in a prominent place, with a good view of it from a busy roadway, leave the gun in there, and tie a large aggressive Doberman to one strut with a 50 foot leash.

Sorry, Christina, but all I have are Brittanys and a Lab. Not quite as intimidating, but the older Brittany is VERY French, if you know what I mean, so he could offend a potential thief, perhaps.

MTV

StewartB

10-19-2005, 11:43 AM

will anyone hassle me if I go walking down 4th Avenue in Anchorage with an 870 slung over my shoulder

I carry a gun when I have intentions to use one.

So I guess you don't believe in being prepared for adverse events then. I'm sure those people who ever had to use one in self defense had no intentions of doing so that day either. I intend to bring one for insurance (i.e. survival), not intending to hunt.

Do you carry a gun when you fly in New Jersey? How about when you visit the city?

No, but I'm never more than a day's walk out to civilization, worst case, in some parts of PA. In most cases maybe 5 minutes walk from civilization - and someone will probably have called 911 before I got a chance to do anything. :-) And for the most part, we don't have dangerous game (just black bears).

Yep, there's lots of dangerous game in downtown Anchorage. But at least you won't be far from civilization.

Like I said, I carry a gun when I have intentions of using one.

SB

Christina Young

10-19-2005, 12:08 PM

Like I said, I carry a gun when I have intentions of using one.

That's fine, your decision for you. You should not have any problem with people who carry them for insurance, either. Those people certainly don't expect (or want) to use them.

BTW - since our super cubs don't really lock, has anyone thought about padlocking them to part of the fuselage tubing or something like that?

StewartB

10-19-2005, 12:23 PM

Christina,

If you ask a smart-assed question, you may get a smart-assed response.

Let's get serious. I'm convinced the old firearm requirement had more to do with attaining food than for self defense. While you're here, the chances are much greater for finding fish than they will be for finding game animals to eat. Alaska law still requires that you carry basic fishing gear in summer survival packs.

As for self defense, read this article. I've heard interviews with this guy and he has convinced me to buy pepper spray, unless you're out in the wide-open and have a very high-powered rifle. Such rifles don't perform well for shooting Ptarmigan or Parka Squirrels, which are the likely survival meat you'll see.

I carry a gun in my plane, by the way. Not a bear gun, though. I do not carry a gun downtown.

SB

Christina Young

10-19-2005, 12:41 PM

SB, give me a break. Nothing about my questions were meant to be smart assed. My question to you regarding insurance was perhaps a bit rhetorical though... because you seemed to have this attitude that no one "needs" a firearm unless they are going to hunt. I couldn't disagree more.

In my original post, I mentioned an 870. That's right... a 12 ga shotgun for the flexibility of being able to use both birdshot for food and have it loaded with slugs for protection. While I appreciate someone's previous comment about a .22 for food and a 45-70 for protection, I don't wish to carry two rifles. Maybe if you could bring handguns through Canada.

Forget bear spray. I'm not bringing it in my plane. And I wouldn't trust it to do the job consistently, despite what the government bureaucrats say.

I will bring fishing equipment, however....

StewartB

10-19-2005, 12:52 PM

Christina, do what you want.

For anybody else, this Ph.D. bear researcher did a study of bear hunters. For those of us who hunt bears, it takes an average of 4.2 shots to kill a bear. That's with very high-powered rifles, from a rest position, concealed, when we've had time to stalk and get set-up for the shot. Now imagine a close encounter with a bear. Such encounters are usually very close because you walked upon a resting bear, or a bear defending a food cache. 4.2 accurately delivered shots with a .375 compares how to your weapon of choice?

Many argue that having a gun is better than not having one. The statistics shown in the link above show just how much better. Surprised? I was. Most of us want to utilize the most effective deterrent for a surprise bear encounter. What is that? Read the article.
SB

StewartB

10-19-2005, 01:09 PM

will anyone hassle me if I go walking down 4th Avenue in Anchorage with an 870 slung over my shoulder (hypothetically)? :wink:

SB, give me a break. Nothing about my questions were meant to be smart assed.

My mistake.

SB

Gunny

10-19-2005, 01:19 PM

Gee Christina - for someone who knows the difference between the classic and modern definition of inflation you seem to be having an awfully hard time with this firearm transporation issue.

Pack a soft gun case in your baggage - they fold up pretty small. When you arrive in Anchorage or where ever, remove the 870 from the airplane, slip it into the soft case, and take it with you to the hotel. At the hotel you can probably ask them to lock it up for you, or lock it in the trunk of your rental car, or just stand it in the closet in your room.

A cased gun is a lot less alarming to passerbys, hotel maids, etc and you see folks coming out of the airport (travelling hunters) with them all the time - albeit the hard lockable type as opposed to the soft ones - especially in Anchorage during hunting season. The case also protects the weapon from unnecessary damage.

my 2cents...
takes an average of 4.2 shots to kill a bear. sure seems off-base. I've hunted black and brown bears, even hunted Cape Buffalo, and never needed more than 2 shots. I agree it is all situational, walking up on a bear kill would be ugly. But I wouldn't trade in my gun for pressurized cayenne pepper :o If you are not comfortable or capable, then you shouldn't be carrying the gun to begin with, that goes for hunting also. Maybe the statistics would improve.

T.J.

10-19-2005, 01:49 PM

delete

redrooster

10-19-2005, 02:13 PM

I'm an "outsider", not an Alaskan, but here's a couple stories I heard:
1) A young city couple is gonna go hiking, and they tell the local USFS guy that they plan on carrying pepper spray & wearing hiker's bells for bear protection.
They ask how to tell when they're in grizzly country. "Simple" he sez," the bear scat has little bells in it & smells like pepper."
2) Two guys are in their camp one morning getting ready to get out after elk, and one tells the other "we gotta be careful today, we're gonna be in grizzly country". The other guy doesn't say a word, just pulls off his boots & starts putting on his sneakers. "What are you doing?" the first guy asks. "Gotta be able to run fast" is the reply. First guy sez "you damn fool, you can't outrun a grizzly!". Number 2 guy sez "don't gotta outrun the grizzly, just gotta outrun you!"

Rooster

cubdrvr

10-19-2005, 02:55 PM

TJ.......
The one on the top left bears a close resemblance to my mother-in-law

it takes an average of 4.2 shots to kill a bear. That's with very high-powered rifles, from a rest position, concealed, when we've had time to stalk and get set-up for the shot.

Is that how many shots it takes you to kill one? Where is the data behind that statement?

My dad used to hunt grizzlies when we lived up there, and it would only take him one shot.

StewartB

10-19-2005, 03:16 PM

TJ,
To hear that guy speak, I'd characterize him as an avid outdoorsman, not as the stereotypical conservationist/biologist.

rooster,

A few years ago I took a vendor rep fishing at the Newhalen rapids in Illiamna. Locals will know where I'm talking about. Jimmy the cab driver takes us from the airport to the river, telling stories about all the bears the whole way. When we get out of the van I rub our lunch bag over George's back, telling him that now he'll be the bait for any bears, which is a joke. (He's from Chicago and scared by the stories.) Later that day, while fishing at the end of a narrow rock spit in the river, we watch a mama brown bear and two cubs appear on a hill above us. The cubs sit and watch mama walk down and onto the rocks we're standing on. Our only exit was to jump into the rapids, an option I don't like. The bear continued toward us, with George about to pee his pants. I told him the bear didn't want us, she wanted our fish, which we had in a little pool in the rocks about 10 feet from us. While we stood ready to jump into the river, the bear, while paying close attention to us, took three fish out of the pool and returned slowly to her cubs. I have pictures another friend took from upstream. George considers that event a highlight in his life, but he still punches me for rubbing our lunch bag on him. He was so scared it wasn't funny.....until later. Meanwhile a Colorado visitor had a whistle in his mouth, a camera to his eye in one hand, and a 9mm Glock in the other hand. I told him if he shot we'd likely be in dire trouble, because that pea shooter wouldn't kill that bear. Guns aren't always the answer. Nor is pepper spray. Patience and clear thinking are our best tool.

I love Alaska.

SB

StewartB

10-19-2005, 03:21 PM

it takes an average of 4.2 shots to kill a bear. That's with very high-powered rifles, from a rest position, concealed, when we've had time to stalk and get set-up for the shot.

Is that how many shots it takes you to kill one? Where is the data behind that statement?

My dad used to hunt grizzlies when we lived up there, and it would only take him one shot.

Christina,

The last brown bear I shot was with a .300 Weatherby. It took 4 shots, all good ones. I'm not ashamed of that. I was taught to keep shooting until the bear stops. Considering that rarely does the hunter have a good route of escape (I sure didn't), that average seems pretty believable. My bear may well have died from the first shot, but she's have made it into thick brush. Chasing a wounded bear in thick brush is an option I don't embrace. The most dangerous bear is an injured bear.

SB

diggler

10-19-2005, 03:52 PM

delete

Christina Young

10-19-2005, 04:08 PM

Diggler, I'm disapointed with you. I only checked this tread again because I saw your name by it... I thought I'd see today's Bush cartoon.

CubCouper

10-19-2005, 07:05 PM

Another bear story....

There was a successful griz hunter in my camp this fall. Between he and his guide, they fired 13 shots of which they were reasonably sure 11 found home (.375H&H & .338WinMag). That is a lot. Both men are reasonable marksmen from what I could tell. First shot was textbook -- broke the shoulder. The rest just finished the job.

Now for the rest the story. Last year the same guide had a wounded bear make it into the brush. He and that hunter spent a day and half tracking a wounded grizzly and then found it -- at a distance of 20 yards. The bear closed the gap in the same amount of time that it took the guide to pull the trigger, rifle pointing STRAIGHT UP, and sent a bullet into the bear's neck/skull as the bruin's front legs wrapped around him. And the hunter, standing beside him, fired a point blank shot through the shoulders. All ended well for the hunters (hunter-ees?) with the group rolling down the hillside but the bear rolling a little farther.

After that experience, I'm sure that I would pop a few extra caps from a distance while I could still see my target "just to make sure". Actually, I'm not sure that I could do bear hunts after that!

It did convince me that while a 7mm Mag is fine for taking a sheep, I wouldn't want to have to "protect" my kill with it! A .338 or .375 is now on my wish list.

Gordon Misch

10-19-2005, 10:05 PM

CubCouper - or a .458? Carried it some in Ak, but sure have no need for it down south here. If you're interested, lemme know.

ground loop

10-19-2005, 11:11 PM

I don't carry a .378 Weatherby magnum because I like to shoot it. After you have been in a situation, whatever gun you have will never seem like enough. I am not man enough to shoot anything bigger :( .
The problem with statistics is that one day you can end up on the wrong end of the bell curve.
I believe Boddington when he says that you want to shoot the animal with enough impact energy that the percussion shock puts the animal down.

Dan2+2

10-19-2005, 11:46 PM

I am friends with the fellow whose guns were used in the Heath High school s. They were in his locked house in a locked gun cabinet in a locked handgun case. His sons friend was the shooter and knew when they were not home. Broke a window broke the guncase and stole the guns. Wendall was sued for not secureing the guns properly. It was a couple of years lots of worry and LOTS of money before he won and was free of the threat of jail or fines. So don't leave a gun in your plane because a home is more sacred than a plane and I don't believe you want to go through want he did.

Torch

10-20-2005, 12:04 AM

j.r. and Christina,

My comment was made concerning the OPEN carrying of weapsons on the street. In my book if you are in town openly carrying a weapon you are trying to show off and be a John Wayne type. I don't think you took my post in the wrong context. Like that hasn't happened on this Forum before. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Torch

10-20-2005, 12:19 AM

CubDriver,

Hey, a short barrel contender in .375: One round would take your mind off even a charging bear, I'd bet.....

MTV

Mike,

My guess is one would be too busy looking for his hat after pulling the trigger on that one to worry about a bear. :lol: :lol:

mvivion

10-20-2005, 12:31 AM

A friend of mine when we were in the military found an original Holland and Holland double rifle in .600 Nitro Express when we were in Hong Kong, and bought it as a collectors item. It had some ammunition with it, and of course, when we got home, he just had to try it out.

Made the mistake of loading both barrels, but firing one. The second barrel fired with the recoil of the first.

If I'd been a bear, within 100 yards of that thing, I wouldn't have stopped running for a looong time. My hearing hasn't been the best since.

Heavy sucker as well, but what an impressive recoil!

MTV

Torch

10-20-2005, 12:43 AM

Christina and j.r. hammack,

My comments were made concerning the carrying of weapons in the open in the cities. Not a wise thing to do. My comments may have been taken out of context in here. That is the FIRST time that has happened on this forum. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

ground loop

10-20-2005, 12:56 AM

mvivion,
You didn't shoot that 600 nitro on a bench rest, :nutz: did you?

redrooster

10-20-2005, 02:25 AM

Just remembered reading about a handgun years ago that would be just the ticket for what we're talking about--packing around up north, just in case. Called a "howdah pistol", it was a handgun version of a blunderbuss in something like 477NE. It was the Indian rajahs' version of the old US Cavalry horse pistol idea, hung in a handy spot from the elephant saddle when they were hunting tigers, just in case they dropped their rifle.
Them old Brits knew how to make a deadly firearm long before Roy Weatherby came along. Kinda hard to keep a scope on them though.....

Rooster

mvivion

10-20-2005, 10:32 AM

Ground Loop,

I didn't shoot the thing at all, but I was dumb enough to stand within 10 feet of it when it erupted.

And, yes, the dum-dum doing the shooting was at a bench.

:x

MTV

Jerry Gaston

10-21-2005, 09:07 AM

I have a conceled carry permit and belive in having all the guns you can afford around within easy reach but...was in a resturant in Livingston Montana last week just to get a quick dinner before going home when I noticed a guy in the next booth wearing some cowboy stuff (boots, Hat etc) and wearing a large pistol on his hip. Unconceled and totally legal. It sure made me nervous and I kept my eye on him untill I could leave. :o
Cities are no place to be packing a gun around like John Wayne.

redrooster

10-22-2005, 12:13 PM

As I pointed out, I'm an outsider so what do I know? But it seems to me that a 450 Marlin or hot-loaded 45-70 lever gun, or maybe an old Model 71 in 348, set up with a large aperature (ghost ring) peep would be pretty good bear medicine-- at least at fairly short range.
This would be short barrelled, light,fairly easy to pack around, and would eliminate that "scope full of hair" syndrome that occurs with a lot of bolt guns. Looking thru the PO Ackley wildcatters handbook, I see some other folks had this same sort of idea back in the old days: witness the 450 Alaskan & 450 American. One's a necked-up 348, and the other's a cut-down 458 mag-- in fact, that's about what the 450 Marlin is, eh?
Do a lot of northern hunters use these lever guns nowadays?

Rooster

Ursa Major

10-22-2005, 12:35 PM

Rooster,

You're about right on the 348 Winchester, 450 Marlin and 45-70. All of them are (or can be in the case of the 45-70) very effective stoppers. Big slow moving bullets with lots of penetration. Any of them would work on bears.

I would have no problem with the Marlin SS guide gun in either 450 or 45-70 as a primary carry in bear country. I own one and like it. However, the survival firearm I have in my cub is a 12 ga shotgun. I can hunt for food with shot, repel boarders with buckshot, deter bears with slugs, or signal for help with 12 ga meteor flares. (I carry all but buckshot ) I worry less about bears in a survival situation than some others and see the versatility of the shotgun as being its primary virtue.

mvivion

10-22-2005, 02:51 PM

Mike,

You are absolutely correct regarding the primary virtue of the 12 Gauge being its versatility.

MTV

redrooster

10-22-2005, 09:48 PM

Someone else posted this idea earlier- you couldn't put any grouse in the skillet with them, but some flare shells oughta be pretty effective for repelling hostiles (both 2 & 4 legged) as well as signalling. Good deterant to any accomplices too-- if I was part of a group of assailants, I wouldn't be too eager to continue an attack if my ringleader was set a-ablaze!

Rooster

StewartB

10-22-2005, 10:19 PM

I'm an advocate for road flares in camp if you suspect bears might visit. Light, noise, smell. Like nothing in nature. All deterrents. As for shooting those flare shells? You'd better go to the range and get dialed-in before you bet your life on them. I'd bet no two are the same as to trajectory and directional stability. If you miss, you're a softly lit target for the bear, and you just lit a fire BEHIND him. Good strategy? Not.

SB

mvivion

10-22-2005, 11:08 PM

Actually, IF you are going to carry a shotgun, look into the bean bag rounds that are now available. They are a VERY effective non lethal deterrent to non-aggressive bears of all stripes. They hurt like hell, I'd guess. They are expensive, but pretty darn accurate out to about 50 yards (predictable, at least). Almost no chance of inflicting a lethal wound with them as well. If you need to give a visitor the bum's rush, this is a great way to do it.

Just back it up with some major lead throwing device, just in case.

They're available in ANC at Northern Security Supply on the Old Seward.

MTV

Christina Young

10-23-2005, 04:31 AM

Mike, how do you think the 12 ga bean bag rounds compare to the 12 ga rubber ball rounds? The various local police depts around here use the latter to encourage bears to move away if necessary...

The rubber bullets were originally a riot control device (shoot them at pavement in front of a crowd, the bullet splatters, and peppers the crowd), whereas the MK Ballistics Bean Bag round was specifically designed for bear deterrents.

I REALLY don't like the older plastic slugs for use on bears, I know of at least two bears where those things were used, and penetrated, requiring that the bear be killed.

So far, at least, I've never heard of a bear injured significantly by a bean bag round.

And, they really swat them, believe me. The bean bag itself is a square fabric sack, filled with small bird shot. It comes out the barrel folded, but by the time it hits the target, it is flying flat, and leaves a square indent in plywood, about a quarter to half inch deep. Considering their aerodynamics, they are surprisingly accurate.