[quote="Ttuxxx" ]Your a sad man, with no empathy who just looks at the bottom line, reminds me of Ebenezer Scrooge.[/quote]

Notice the quotes around the "real world". Perhaps I should have used "non-forum".

To make a point Ive had to many times already at your enquiry Ttuuxxx, my companies "bottom line" reads exactly £0.00, and has done so for the last four years. Most of my work with Puppy is to use it to support charities, low income families, schools, nursaries and voluntary groups. I occasionally charge a small fee to those who can afford it to pay for my mobile phone, petrol for my "old-banger" of a car and web hosting/internet connection charges, expenses which I often use my own personal money to subsidise also. Its worth it because I get a whole heap of satisfaction from my "job". I will repeat my point of view wherever it seems relevant and on-topic to do so.

WhoDo has been of great help and assistance to many puppy users, and I personally hope he chooses to continue to do so. He's just not not suitable for a job in Distro Management....which from his resignation I take as his own opinion also. I wouldnt want to put anyone off contributing to puppy in whatever way they are best able.

I believe Ive been more sensitive to others feelings than either you or Warren have been to mine, nob/prick/scrooge/capitalist/terrorist/bully/scrooge/wanker that I am (not).

See youve made me start swearing now

Right...Im away for the evening, hiring a boat and going cruising on the river. Its good to take a break once in a while._________________Puppy Linux's Mission

Considering the way WhoDo handled my own requests for changes/bugfixes to Puppy Linux, I must confess I personally breathed a sigh of relief when he announced he was relinquishing the co-ordinator role, although I didnt expect (or push for) this to happen. I dont believe any puppy user/developer should be alarmed by this.

...and so the spin begins. BTW, it's called SPIN because it travels in circles without any beginning or end, and that's exactly what we have here. A perpetual reinvention of the "truth" according to Walter Mitty. Orwellian isn't it? As my parting gift to the sensible element of this community, I leave the following facts:

1. I did NOT reject out of hand any bug reports/requests for changes made by ecomoney, or abuse him for making them. The facts speak for themselves. Fire up your Puppy 4.2 and you'll find a shortcut in your root directory to the root of the partition - one of a number of ecomoney suggestions incorporated at his request.

What I DID reject was his repeated and unreasonable demands that I immediately release an update version of 4.2 because it was "flawed". I said that we had patches and fixes posted already, and I didn't want to immediately follow the first release without Barry in charge with a second bug-fix release. That would have said that we, as a development team, were not yet capable of replacing him and given the rest of the Linux world a bad impression. That was my decision to make as coordinator and I made it, but ecomoney didn't like my choice because it didn't accord with his wishes. The campaign continued.

At one point it was also suggested by ecomoney that Barry himself immediately released updates. He didn't. There was at least 2 weeks of testing before each bugfix release was announced. Puppy 4.2.1 took over 4 weeks, but after the furore created by ecomoney over printing and document associations, I wanted the bug fix update to be bulletproof. Was that such a BAD thing?

2. When I (repeatedly) refused to accede to ecomoney's demands to release an early bug fix version, he threatened privately that he would "take whatever action is necessary for that to happen". He later variously claimed he meant either approaching Barry or the community with his concerns. Not true. The threat was quite explicit when read in the context of his continually repeated demands. He would push in whatever quarter for my decision as coordinator to be overturned, and that would have required removing me from that role.

I refused to be threatened and so I posted his threat on the forum. For that I was vilified as someone who posts private communications for his own ends, instead of a concerned member of the community who felt the community needed to know what pressure was being applied privately as well as publicly to its project coordinator.

3. ecomoney has continually painted himself as the aggrieved party in a dispute that actually goes back over 2 years. It started when I was asked to follow 2.15CE with a 3.xx series CE version. I said I didn't have time but would happily support anyone who wanted to give it a shot. ecomoney put his hand up and I supported him in his attempt. What followed was standard fare for ecomoney ... nothing but hot air. He tried to organise committees, boards, panels and any other device so that he could direct traffic instead of doing the driving.

First was his decision to drop the 3.xxCE in favour of yet another 2.xx series CE - we'd already had 2.03CE (Hacao), 2.15CE (WhoDo et al), 2.14R (Dougal and pakt) and 2.16CE (tronkel). His excuse was that he felt that 3.xx series was problematic. Yeah, right. It's based on Slackware compatibility and solid as a rock. That was just an excuse. Realising that wouldn't hold water he disappeared ... for 2 years ... without any explanation.

ecomoney says that he supported the 4.2 development program coordinated by me. That is an outright fabrication. The first communication from him was AFTER 4.2 was released and he'd rushed out to install it on a bunch of machines. He came back to the forum complaining bitterly that it was a flawed release and it was hurting his "clients". What hurt his clients was his own ill-considered decision to install a point0 release without testing it first! As usual with ecomoney, it's always someone else's fault. He blamed me for releasing a version of Puppy with an untested CUPS release. Also not true. It had been tested through multiple alpha, beta and RC releases. It underwent MORE testing than any version since 2.15CE! And still the bugs got through. As Barry himself told me "There are always bugs. Don't worry about it!" Well I did, and our terrific team of developers produced fixes within days of the release. Not good enough, says ecomoney!

4. Then we come to the great ecomoney contribution ... demanding a separate forum section for bugs instead of the tried and tested bugs and fixes thread that accompanies each release. He nagged until he got his way, and then proceeded to flood the new forum section with ill-considered reports of almost every conceivable type, only some of which could even be loosely characterised as "bugs" by any reasonable standard. He even complained about the standard JWM feature of scrolling between desktops with the mouse wheel. I was given moderator rights over THAT SECTION ONLY as the coordinator, so I could sort through the chaff and make sure the developers only had to read genuine bug reports and not nonsense. Was that so BAD?

Did it stop? Nope. Next thing he's reporting a user complaint that "the monitor appears broken" because the theme and icons are in black and white ... on an ALPHA version of upup! Why is he showing alpha's to newbies? I think it's so he can be perceived as being "involved" in the development process. If they like what they see, he's a great man for being a part of it; if they don't like it, it's the developer's fault for getting it wrong and he promises to complain on their behalf!

5. Then we have ecomoney's perpetually rubber versions of the "truth" - first he has "no programming skills" and then he's had "a traditional academic background in software design and programming". It's like watching a chameleon change colour to suit the surroundings. Fascinating but not an accurate representation of the creature in any circumstances. He is taken to task for not finishing Phoenix - the 3.xx/2.xx CE he was supposed to be managing - and he first claims it was because he was unemployed, and then more recently that the project is still alive but he doesn't want to "rush it out". Spin, spin, SPIN!

6. As for ego's, I see that I too have now been branded as egotistical and self-serving in this dispute. That really causes me great pain, because I know that it is so untrue. I went to extraordinary lengths as coordinator to put aside my own ego and ideas and instead follow what I believed was the best course for Puppy, its developers and the community. ecomoney says BarryK listens ... and he does ... where I didn't. But Barry almost never comes back to try and justify his decisions. No-one expects him to. I tried to do that, by explaining in detail the reasons behind each and every choice. I tried to answer as many reports and requests as I could personally. For that I have been accused of continually springing to my own defense as an ego-related failing! I assumed that the community would see that attempt at transparency as a good thing. I'm glad I'm not a betting man or I'd be pretty broke right about now!

I didn't have to explain my choices but, being ever mindful that I'm not Barry, I felt I should be as transparent and open about things as possible in the best interests of all concerned. Was that such a BAD choice to make?

And now I have made another choice ... not for me alone but also for this community. I let the stress produced by ecomoney's tactics and ceaseless campaigning get under my skin. I lost my temper and fired back in a blatantly personal attack. I regret that because it gave him yet another opening to play the wounded victim and valiant protector of the hapless newbie user. I'm human and this time I let that show in a very human way. It was an undeniable sign that for me Puppy was no longer fun.

Was reacting that way such a BAD thing? After all, it was a reaction designed to relieve the stress. Yes, I certainly think so, even though Barry also admits to losing his temper here on occasion. For this I was then characterised as an abusive bully! Despite that the reason for my leaving was purely to avoid further stress in a life already too full of that weighty baggage. I could cry publicly about my financial situation, pressures at work that induces, even lack of sleep (as has been suggested) ... but in all of those excuses there are others here worse off than me. It would be too self-serving to make exuses, so I won't. It is what it is, nothing more.

It was time to leave, and so I have. Please consider this restatement of simple facts as my parting gift to those of you who will have to continue to suffer this man's SPIN until he is again found out and leaves of his own accord. He will, when this community and its product no longer suit his purposes. I wish you all, and Puppy, the very best for the future from the bottom of my heart. Be ever vigilant and reject SPIN in favour of empirical truth at every turn. Test every claim in the furnace of facts. Hang on to your integrity and don't let the SPIN take you in!_________________Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't!
SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com

When I read that Whodo left Puppy Linux, I was sad that Puppy Linux just lost one of its good programmers and believer. But following this thread and the unfolding story, the situation is becoming a slugfest. We should understand this is part of the growth process and/or maturity of Puppy Linux. We should always remember that this is a volunteer effort and that respect for one another should be a paramount belief to be shared by Puppy Linux users.

Warren thanks for all your influential and hard won efforts.
I sincerely hope you will return or remain in some capacity (remember after Puppy Viz 2.15 you said 'never again') and then somehow produced Deep Thought. . . .

Ttuuxxx needs someone to control and moderate his efforts and has kindly praised your skills in this regard
We need to keep Ttuuxxx on a leash otherwise he will completely gnaw away Zigberts leg . . .
Only DharmaDorje (aka WhoDo) can do this:
http://tmxxine.com/ww/DharmaDorje

What is the situation with the website? Are you still hosting
or has Prithish taken it over completely?

Please return to being a Puppy user whilst Barry updates the 2.x and 4.x series and we all look forward to 5.x

[sic]
What I DID reject was his repeated and unreasonable demands that I immediately release an update version of 4.2 because it was "flawed". I said that we had patches and fixes posted already, and I didn't want to immediately follow the first release without Barry in charge with a second bug-fix release. That would have said that we, as a development team, were not yet capable of replacing him and given the rest of the Linux world a bad impression. That was my decision to make as coordinator and I made it, but ecomoney didn't like my choice because it didn't accord with his wishes.
[sic]

Hmmmm...

I was not intending to post in this thread a second time.

Windows (tm) does not release a bugfix version for a number of years. They continually offer "Windows Update"... a right royal blue pain.

Mandriva, (of which I've used a few versions) does not offer a bugfix version for a number of months. They do supply patches. It was quite popular at one point.

Ubuntu, does not offer a bugfix version for a number of months. They do supply patches.

Debian, does not offer a bugfix version for a number of months. I think they supply patches too.

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
...
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--
...You'll be a SUCCESSFUL Puppy Linux Project Co-ordinator, my son!

Kipling is okay... [EDIT: though George Orwell considered him “the prophet of British Imperialism in its expansionist phase” ...] but come on man! ...

Is there for honest poverty
That hings his head, an a' that?
The coward slave, we pass him by -
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an a' that!
Our toils obscure, an a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hodding grey, an a' that?
Gie fools their skills, and knaves their wine -
A man's a man for a' that.
For a' that, an a' that,
Their tinsel show, an a' that,
The honest man, tho e'er sae poor,
Is king o men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie ca'd 'a lord,'
Wha struts, an stares, an a' that?
Tho hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a cuif for a' that.
For a' that, an a' that,
His ribband, star, an a' that,
The man o independent mind,
He looks an laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an a' that!
But an honest man's aboon his might -
Guid faith, he mauna fa' that!
For a' that, an a' that,
Their dignities, an a' that,
The pith o sense an pride o worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may
(As come it will for a' that),
That Sense and Worth o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree an a' that.
For a' that, an a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That man to man, the world, o'er
Shall brithers be for a' that.

Did you know Zigbert was your brother ttuuxxx? :-)

It feels entirely unnecessary to name the poet, since it could only be:
Robert Burns (poem date 1795)Last edited by mcewanw on Sat 13 Jun 2009, 12:42; edited 1 time in total

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

Oh no! How can anyone sensible compare the contrived speech of a mere politician with a genius. Roosevelt and his team tried their political best, but the music just isn't in it. Surely if there was a vote (which admittedly is hardly necessary) even the citizens of the U.S. would overwhelmingly vote for Burns (even if they struggle with the vernacular a bit).

Don't most politicians tend to make excuses for their blunders via attempts at grandiose speech which act to bolster their own narcissism? That's exactly how Roosevelt's speech comes across to my ears. Burns' poem was an eloquent [EDIT] selfless speech for humanity; Roosevelt's monologue was an egotistical reflection on himself. The latter can certainly be compared with one of the finale speeches posted in this thread, so in that sense I see your point.... But Burns was gentle and kind in reminding us that "A Man's a Man for A' That".

[EDIT: As I've said in another thread though, I think Puppy 4.2.1 isn't too bad at all - in fact I'm using it now. Pity about all the temper tantrum stuff though; better without it].

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