from what i got, from streams he not br as bad as Lei Shen heroic. But with limit attempts doesn't lead to alot of error's in figuring him out! took like 130 wipe's to get Lei Shen

LOL pretty sure Paragon and Method had more than 130 wipes on Lei shen... 130 wipes is something a guild raiding 16h per day can produce on a single day... and they tryed that boss for 7 days! Blood Legion even needed 10 days i'm sure they had something like 600 wipes.

Who cares? It's a part of the game 99% of the players will never see. Why should we pay it even a speck of attention?

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
"Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." -- Samuel Johnson

Blizzard said that Ra-den is easier than Lei Shen HC, but has limited attempts to cover that up.

I need some proof that they said this, otherwise *I* remember them saying he was the hardest boss in the game and had limited attempts to prevent guilds endlessly attacking him thousands of times until they just landed a lucky attempt and got the kill.

Originally Posted by melodramocracy

Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

I need some proof that they said this, otherwise *I* remember them saying he was the hardest boss in the game and had limited attempts to prevent guilds endlessly attacking him thousands of times until they just landed a lucky attempt and got the kill.

"I'd also really like to emphasize that Ra-den is a true bonus boss. Lei Shen is the final boss of Throne of Thunder, just as Yogg-Saron was the final boss of Ulduar. Lei Shen offers an epic challenge, and should feel like the pinnacle of the zone as a whole. Ra-den is your reward if you manage to beat the zone on its hardest difficulty -- he's a bonus level. And sometimes the rules are a bit different on those."

"When I say that Ra-den is a "bonus boss" I'm not saying he's optional. Of course I know there's no such thing as an optional boss in progression, and people are very much going to count him as part of the progression race. But if you think back to Algalon, he actually wasn't that complicated, or that hard. Firefighter, Freya with 3 Keepers, or Yogg-1 required you to learn and coordinate far more than Algalon. Algalon literally had three mechanics to deal with for the entire fight, and in practice most guilds killed him in around 3 hours or a couple dozen attempts. It's just that they were tuned tightly numbers-wise, and the one-hour weekly limit turned what would have otherwise been a single night of progression into three or four weeks. Heroic Lei Shen is a harder and more complex fight than Ra-den, and I'm not going to claim otherwise. Ra-den is just different; he's a bit of a mystery, and something we haven't tried in a while."

Regarding your post and alts:

"Regarding alts: To engage Heroic Lei Shen, you must have killed 11/12 bosses on Heroic in that lockout. To engage Ra-den, you must have killed Heroic Lei Shen in that lockout. I'm incredibly skeptical that anyone is going to manage that with multiple alt clears in parallel, both due to gear disparity and because doing so would mean forfeiting much of the ability to optimize raid composition for progression on the hardest fights."

So it's not that Ra-den is ridiculously difficult to prevent alt raids getting it down, it's that Lei Shen is.

You had a small thing stating that Ra-den would need less attempts then Lei Shen, which is mostly true due to the limited attempts system.

For Lei Shen progression- guilds pull in wipe after wipe without any sort of character improvement, waiting for that one RNG pull where they had 10% more crits on Lei Shen, and heals crit 20% more compared to the average. The only time their character improves is when the raid resets weekly, otherwise, its a rush zerg in the hopes of having lucky RNG to put out the numbers that thier gear just can't quite provide yet.

For Ra-den progression- guilds plan the 30 wipes. Sometimes they have new strats to see if they can deal with a mechanic thats troubling easier. Either way, if they don't get it done, they come back in next week with a full clear of heroic gear, giving them more health, damage, and healing. We will probably see a kill within the 4th week, as thats generally the amount of time it takes for ppl to start getting in full BiS gear.

Thus, where guilds put in multiple hundreds of wipes on Lei Shen in looking for that RNG pull to overcome gear differences, Ra-den, guilds put in 30 good pulls a week, and then come back later with more gear. If Ra-den IS tightly numbers tuned, then what is most likely going on is, week 1, 15 wipes are spent learning the mechanics. After that, they get him down about to 70% health, and then wipe due to healing issues. Week 2, 30 wipes with him getting to around 50% health. Week 3, 30 wipes with him getting to about 30% health. Week 4, a kill most likely incoming, maybe guilds wipe with him close to death. If nothing comes in week 4, week 5 will be a kill for sure by my estimation. If not, then Ra-den IS harder the Lei Shen in terms of numbers.

Last edited by Raugnaut; 2013-04-04 at 04:30 PM.

Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.

Who cares? It's a part of the game 99% of the players will never see. Why should we pay it even a speck of attention?

Because we have a different opinion than you and enjoy this.

Don't go into a thread just to bash a discussion on something we enjoy. I know your stance on raiding in MOP very well.

---------- Post added 2013-04-04 at 04:28 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Anjerith

I need some proof that they said this, otherwise *I* remember them saying he was the hardest boss in the game and had limited attempts to prevent guilds endlessly attacking him thousands of times until they just landed a lucky attempt and got the kill.

I remember them saying Ra-den was easier, too, but I need to figure out where they said it.

You had a small thing stating that Ra-den would need less attempts then Lei Shen, which is mostly true due to the limited attempts system.

For Lei Shen progression- guilds pull in wipe after wipe without any sort of character improvement, waiting for that one RNG pull where they had 10% more crits on Lei Shen, and heals crit 20% more compared to the average. The only time their character improves is when the raid resets weekly, otherwise, its a rush zerg in the hopes of having lucky RNG to put out the numbers that thier gear just can't quite provide yet.

For Ra-den progression- guilds plan the 30 wipes. Sometimes they have new strats to see if they can deal with a mechanic thats troubling easier. Either way, if they don't get it done, they come back in next week with a full clear of heroic gear, giving them more health, damage, and healing. We will probably see a kill within the 4th week, as thats generally the amount of time it takes for ppl to start getting in full BiS gear.

I am in no position to argue this point from my own experience. I was simply providing the source where Watcher/Blizz said Ra-den is "not as hard" as Lei Shen, as requested by Anjerith.