Nonetheless, I agree with the overall gist of the article that the new Apple TV is not currently a threat to dedicated game consoles, but this does close the gap significantly more than what was shown on stage. I doubt Apple will attempt to compete with consoles, but this does give them a leg up over other set top boxes.

Siri even offers some limited functionality while a movie is playing, and is for example able to fast forward any amount of time, or rewind a few seconds and display subtitles when asked “what did he just say?”

i'm sorry, that sounds great. always wanted to specify an amount of time to go forward/back, instead of watching the high speed like a hawk to click play at the right moment. small thing, but.. i am in. like.

A woefully inadequate one. But hey, if you want to give you friends garbage I'll not stop you.

I appreciate your judgment on the adequacy of devices for my use cases.

I'm not expecting people to sit around on my couch using the Apple TV to play Call of Duty. Thinking more of a Wii-sports type thing where nobody's doing anything serious, and it's just silly crap that's enjoyable.

Interestingly, as a PC gamer I'm more likely to use an Apple TV for a "console" than dropping the >2x as much on a high end console. Why? Guests. I wouldn't use the gaming features much myself, but when I've got people over why not? I'll already have the ATV for streaming shit, so there's no extra expenditure.

Yeah, we passed on the high end consoles this time. We still have an original Xbox, NES, Genesis, and Nomad in use. The kids have two PS3s...and have no interest in a 4.

We are upgrading a Gen2 Apple TV to a new one for the very reason you cite; friends and family.

I see a lot of focus on the gaming aspect of this device. I think it is more suited as an easy to use way to access streaming and itunes stuff.

In addition to this, if you're into older games, mobile games and consoles, the wife and I have really been enjoying the NVIDIA Shield Android TV. With all of our emulators set up on it, it is much more compact than having all of our old consoles strewn about and having to switch inputs all the time.

You can also stream PC games via the cloud or your PC, and play some relatively impressive android games. Though it is more than this apple TV at $200, but it comes with a gamepad SD card slot, USB3 ports and is 4K capable.

That said, if you don't like to game, are hooked into the Apple ecosystem, and are unlikely to make the move to 4K in the next few years, I don't see an issue with the Apple TV. Many TV's can play netflix, Amazon and Hulu through built in smart TV features though.

Did Apple say they were going to kill PC/Console gaming...or is this a projection?

It seems impossible for anyone to release any kind of set-top box (Apple, Valve, Nvidia, whomever) without a bunch of people concluding that the move only makes sense as part of an attempt to kill PC/Console gaming.

I'm still baffled why people are comparing it to the Wii U. Seems more comparable to the original Wii...

That's exactly what I was thinking. Many homes have a Wii for kids and non-gaming adults, so building equivalent capability into the AppleTV seems like a slam-dunk, and would enable many families to condense crowded entertainment solutions and eliminate duplicate and/or lesser-used devices.

Did Apple say they were going to kill PC/Console gaming...or is this a projection?

It seems impossible for anyone to release any kind of set-top box (Apple, Valve, Nvidia, whomever) without a bunch of people concluding that the move only makes sense as part of an attempt to kill PC/Console gaming.

Yes. Maybe not here because we wear our pants on our hips and legs and not on our heads.

But you shouldn't be surprised. Remember when Angry Birds was going to kill the 3DS and Nintendo was going to be out of business in a year?

Video games have existed with "Market X" for generations. In comes the Wii which brings in "Market Y," which is bigger than "Market X." Game companies enjoy a time of revenue from both "Market X" and "Market Y."

But "Market Y" has moved onto games gimped by microtransactions and cute animals. No matter what logic or reason presented, "Market Y" will always believe that the games industry simply cannot compete. And there's no way Video Games will ever be successful again with the paltry size of "Market X.". Except they are.

That's because the games industry usually sells hardware AT A LOSS. They make up that loss through software sales. Fact of the matter is, even though "Market Y" bought the Wii and other systems... Their attach rate was incredibly low.

Looking at the sales for X1 and PS4 it isn't hard to conclude that "Market Y"s departure isn't really noticed. But to them, they are god... And the industry simply cannot survive without their low attach rates. The fact is that the industry was doing well before they came along, and it'll do even better after because of the increased visibility.

Now if only self -professed "real gamers" could stop being such c***s...

TLDR: Mathematically speaking, the argument holds zero water. To an industry, all customers aren't created equally. You are weighted based on how much money you spend. A gamer who buys 10 games a year is infinitely more important than 100 gamers who buy 1-2 games per console cycle.

Did Apple say they were going to kill PC/Console gaming...or is this a projection?

It seems impossible for anyone to release any kind of set-top box (Apple, Valve, Nvidia, whomever) without a bunch of people concluding that the move only makes sense as part of an attempt to kill PC/Console gaming.

Just as nobody can release a premium smartphone without it being called an "iPhone Killer", irrespective of the reality of the situation.

Yes. Maybe not here because we wear our pants on our hips and legs and not on our heads.

But you shouldn't be surprised. Remember when Angry Birds was going to kill the 3DS and Nintendo was going to be out of business in a year?

Video games have existed with "Market X" for generations. In comes the Wii which brings in "Market Y," which is bigger than "Market X." Game companies enjoy a time of revenue from both "Market X" and "Market Y."

But "Market Y" has moved onto games gimped by microtransactions and cute animals. No matter what logic or reason presented, "Market Y" will always believe that the games industry simply cannot compete.

Funny, I was just thinking the opposite. "Market X" will always believe that Apple/Nintendo/casual cannot compete.

Quote:

And there's no way Video Games will ever be successful again with the paltry size of "Market X.". Except they are.

That's because the games industry usually sells hardware AT A LOSS. They make up that loss through software sales. Fact of the matter is, even though "Market Y" bought the Wii and other systems... Their attach rate was incredibly low.

As of 2014 the Wii had a lifetime attach rate of 8.84; that doesn't strike me as incredibly low when their wildly successful DS only had 6.12 and the much less popular GameCube had 9.59!

Quote:

Looking at the sales for X1 and PS4 it isn't hard to conclude that "Market Y"s departure isn't really noticed. But to them, they are god... And the industry simply cannot survive without their low attach rates. The fact is that the industry was doing well before they came along, and it'll do even better after because of the increased visibility.

Now if only self -professed "real gamers" could stop being such tests....

This allows Apple to upgrade and improve the Apple TV innards on an annual basis.

Hahah.. Apple has gone *years* without even thinking about the Apple TV. They don't care about it at all, it'll be another Apple product that will be abandoned in a couple of years as Apple continues to focus on that sweet sweet iPhone money.

This allows Apple to upgrade and improve the Apple TV innards on an annual basis.

Hahah.. Apple has gone *years* without even thinking about the Apple TV. They don't care about it at all, it'll be another Apple product that will be abandoned in a couple of years as Apple continues to focus on that sweet sweet iPhone money.

And yet Apple has updated the AppleTV 3 times now since it's launch in 2007. So in a couple years they will update it again, as has been the norm. The only question is if it will be 2 years or 3 years (2017 or 2018) and if they will go with the A9 or A10.

In Australia, the Xbox One can be had for as low as $299 AUD (approx ~$209 USD) when on sale. I doubt apple products are regularly for sale, so its a bit of a stretch to call it a more expensive console.

I'm 28, I play games on my phone, I own a gaming PC, I have a good annual income, I have a high end home entertainment setup and I'm very socially active and frequently host in my house.

I'm who this device is aimed at, and it's a dud.

I don't want to play motion controlled Wii games, because they were rubbish in 2005. Now they're both rubbish and a decade out of date.

I don't want to spend £200 on a TV streaming box and accessories, because I have two smart TVs that do it all already, and a Chromecast in my projector. I run all my entertainment either natively on the TVs, or via my tablet or phone or PC to the screens.

I don't want to make my friends play bad motion controlled games via a remote control or phone games designed for a small screen on my TV.

I don't want to have another device inbetween me and my TV showing my content.

The only reason to buy this device is the Apple logo on it. Everything it does is done better, cheaper and in a more elegant way already.

Think you're missing a key threat to the existing console providers: the race to zero. One of the biggest challenges platform holders face (including Nintendo) is that high-quality games are available on iOS and Android for free or very inexpensively (whether base price/microtransactions). Problem is, many of those games are "good enough" — and that good enough has destroyed Nintendo's ability to sell stand-alone portable gaming hardware and games at full-price. Just need a few high-volume/low-price hits to get the EAs on board.

Note: this isn't saying Apple TV is going to destroy the console market and take over. Just saying low-priced, high-quality games have the potential to drive user expectations downward in price, causing significant problems for existing console platforms and marketplaces. Believe me, Xbox and Sony are looking at this closely.

The remote is going to limit the games. I guess you could have third party remotes, but without an OEM standard version as a base I'm dubious. Plus the additional remotes are iPhones and iPads. That sounds like you're dealing with some latency factors that will limit games to the more casual types.

Love all the trash talking from folks too damned lazy, or too bent on trolling, to bother checking things out for themselves.

My response to this is no shit - a low powered ARM device is not going to compete with the PS4 or XBox One.

It's not a low powered ARM device if it is the A8 on mains.

Mains? You mean 110AC? So? Boards don't run on AC...

I like pretty much all things Apple, but even the merest suggestion that the Apple TV is in any way comparable to a PS4 or XBone from a gaming perspective is laughable. Lets start with 8 core CPUs and the GPUs.

The power supplies in the PS4/XBone alone are bigger than the Apple TV. So yes, comparatively low power - both consoles pull in excess of 100 watts.

In my mind apple TV sits squarely in the same bracket as a roku, or maybe a roku + ouya. Either way, I don't see it sharing a competitive space with a gaming machine. (And if I want to play games, gaming machines these days have all of the other stuff in them anyway).

Side note entirely, any word on 4K support out of this thing? That would be a 'killer feature' imo. I assume it doesn't since the hardware gives a clear indication this isn't 'cutting edge', but haven't seen it covered.

It is not too hard to imagine party games where each guest uses their iPhone as a controller. It is also not too much of a stretch to imagine that they may get close to PS3/Xbox360 graphics. I don't expect the primary purchasing reason to be games, but I do expect a few good games to be produced.

My response to this is no shit - a low powered ARM device is not going to compete with the PS4 or XBox One.

It's not a low powered ARM device if it is the A8 on mains.

Mains? You mean 110AC? So? Boards don't run on AC...

I like pretty much all things Apple, but even the merest suggestion that the Apple TV is in any way comparable to a PS4 or XBone from a gaming perspective is laughable. Lets start with 8 core CPUs and the GPUs.

The power supplies in the PS4/XBone alone are bigger than the Apple TV. So yes, comparatively low power - both consoles pull in excess of 100 watts.

The only reason to buy this device is the Apple logo on it. Everything it does is done better, cheaper and in a more elegant way already.

Which device allows me (without installing software or limiting me to certain apps) to mirror the screen from my MacBook Pro or my iPhone, while supporting a native app store where I'll be able to get Plex, Netflix, and Amazon set up with a responsive UI?

Oh right. There isn't one, negating your attempt at a point because you make the assumption that you're the target market, and can't think outside of your own uses to see how other people might use it.

This is the first version of the AppleTV, or any streaming device for that matter, that I've found actually has a feature set to make me willing to spend the money. In fact, it's saving me several hundred dollars because I was going to give up and buy a Mac Mini to use as a home theatre computer, and it'll be far, far better for what I want it to do than said Mac Mini would have been.

Yes. Maybe not here because we wear our pants on our hips and legs and not on our heads.

But you shouldn't be surprised. Remember when Angry Birds was going to kill the 3DS and Nintendo was going to be out of business in a year?

Video games have existed with "Market X" for generations. In comes the Wii which brings in "Market Y," which is bigger than "Market X." Game companies enjoy a time of revenue from both "Market X" and "Market Y."

But "Market Y" has moved onto games gimped by microtransactions and cute animals. No matter what logic or reason presented, "Market Y" will always believe that the games industry simply cannot compete.

Funny, I was just thinking the opposite. "Market X" will always believe that Apple/Nintendo/casual cannot compete.

Nintendo and Apple make very different products. While there is a notion that the WiiU is not doing as well as many in "Market X" would hope, that doesn't meant that Nintendo CANNOT compete.

Quote:

Quote:

And there's no way Video Games will ever be successful again with the paltry size of "Market X.". Except they are.

That's because the games industry usually sells hardware AT A LOSS. They make up that loss through software sales. Fact of the matter is, even though "Market Y" bought the Wii and other systems... Their attach rate was incredibly low.

As of 2014 the Wii had a lifetime attach rate of 8.84; that doesn't strike me as incredibly low when their wildly successful DS only had 6.12 and the much less popular GameCube had 9.59!

The Gamecube was released in NA in 2001 giving it only 5 years to gain the attach rate of 9.59 for an annual attach rate of around 1.9 games per year per user. The Wii "lifetime" was from 2006 to 2013. 7 years for an annual attach rate of 1.25 games per year. That's a 33% DROP! That's significant!

Quote:

Quote:

Looking at the sales for X1 and PS4 it isn't hard to conclude that "Market Y"s departure isn't really noticed. But to them, they are god... And the industry simply cannot survive without their low attach rates. The fact is that the industry was doing well before they came along, and it'll do even better after because of the increased visibility.

Now if only self -professed "real gamers" could stop being such tests....

Real gamers can't stomach the idea of games they don't play.

I'm not so sure that applies to only "real gamers." In fact, I see the other side play that card far more often. I'm not sure how many times I've seen this premonition that Apple is going to completely destroy the gaming market.

But it's really difficult to ignore the writing on the wall that the bubble is going to burst just like the Atari Bubble did for the very same reasons. I imagine most people touting mobile gaming as the be-all-end-all future weren't around for said bubble... so they couldn't care less.

Think you're missing a key threat to the existing console providers: the race to zero. One of the biggest challenges platform holders face (including Nintendo) is that high-quality games are available on iOS and Android for free or very inexpensively (whether base price/microtransactions). Problem is, many of those games are "good enough" — and that good enough has destroyed Nintendo's ability to sell stand-alone portable gaming hardware and games at full-price. Just need a few high-volume/low-price hits to get the EAs on board.

Note: this isn't saying Apple TV is going to destroy the console market and take over. Just saying low-priced, high-quality games have the potential to drive user expectations downward in price, causing significant problems for existing console platforms and marketplaces. Believe me, Xbox and Sony are looking at this closely.

I'm not sure where you get "Low-priced, high-quality. Mobile games USED to be good. Cut the Rope was the shit. While I think the freemium industry is indeed still popular, Rovio is facing massive layoffs.

I'm sorry but this is like someone saying Shareware was going to kill the industry because why would people pay money when they can just play Shareware for free? Maybe to kids and poor college kids this notion was great. But they aren't the ones spending the money.

There are PLENTY of historical examples where such a case has never proven to be problematic and the race to the bottom has always lead to disaster and for some reason we keep repeating history.

Siri even offers some limited functionality while a movie is playing, and is for example able to fast forward any amount of time, or rewind a few seconds and display subtitles when asked “what did he just say?”

i'm sorry, that sounds great. always wanted to specify an amount of time to go forward/back, instead of watching the high speed like a hawk to click play at the right moment. small thing, but.. i am in. like.

I'd have to watch the video again, but I think Siri's "What did she say?" rewind is set to 15 sec.

I get the feeling any of these games on an Apple TV can be found on an iPhone or whatnot. Or the equivalent game will be on Android. In other words, if it's on a device someone owns, they're more than likely going to download it on their device than play it on the TV.

My response to this is no shit - a low powered ARM device is not going to compete with the PS4 or XBox One.

It's not a low powered ARM device if it is the A8 on mains.

Mains? You mean 110AC? So? Boards don't run on AC...

I like pretty much all things Apple, but even the merest suggestion that the Apple TV is in any way comparable to a PS4 or XBone from a gaming perspective is laughable. Lets start with 8 core CPUs and the GPUs.

The power supplies in the PS4/XBone alone are bigger than the Apple TV. So yes, comparatively low power - both consoles pull in excess of 100 watts.

Maybe comparable to the Wii. But you're not going to be playing Forza 6 or GoW on an Apple TV. Ever.

I'll quote you on that.

The XB1 and PS4 use relatively low power parts (even if they have 8 cores!), comparable to a high end Atom part or a mid-low level Core i3 part.

The A8, while also relatively low power, is not low powered for it's class. It's performance is also comparable to a high end Atom part or a mid-low level Core i3 part.

So again, for this generation the gap is suitably large that the best comparison is the Wii U or PS3/XB360.

The difference is that an Apple TV generation is only two year, so we might see a A9 or A10 powered Apple TV in 2017 or 2018. Do you think the PS4 and XB1 will be updated by then?

If they aren't, I absolutely think the Apple TV will be XB1/PS4 class, then.

I'm dubious of that, given the power and size limitations this thing will have (being connected to AC certainly helps, but it still has to dissipate the heat from whatever it's drawing).

But even if I grant you the power equivalence, that doesn't mean much on its own. To compete against the PS4 and XOne you need the types of games that people buy those systems for. At that point, they would be competing against systems which have a 4-5 year library of AAA games built up, and there's no particular reason to believe that just by achieving power-equivalence they would attract those developers (in the same way that third party developers don't care about the WiiU).

That's not to say gaming on Apple TV will be a failure. It will likely expand the market for gaming on your TV in the same way that iPhones and Wii expanded the market for gaming. But that's a totally different thing from being a threat to PS4/XOne.

I'm 28, I play games on my phone, I own a gaming PC, I have a good annual income, I have a high end home entertainment setup and I'm very socially active and frequently host in my house.

I'm who this device is aimed at, and it's a dud.

Hmm, I am guessing from this Nielsen report that you are a decade or more off the target age group, and your ownership of a dedicated gaming PC basically knocks you the rest of the way out of contention.

Apple is most likely going after those in GenX and beyond who are heavy viewers of TV on a TV, who may also be less comfortable navigating the mish-mash of custom streaming TV players offered by major networks and cable providers (think incompatible video codecs, buffering, out of date flash versions, etc.) and just want a cohesive solution glued together by some Apple polish...Source: http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/insights/n ... ivity.html

A woefully inadequate one. But hey, if you want to give you friends garbage I'll not stop you.

Well, they did show off friends using their own iPhones as controllers for multiplayer play. That'll actually work for a lot of people.

Only if all your friends own the same brand of smartphone as you do.

That depends on app developers. They have the power to deal with that themselves.

There are iOS apps that implement their own local servers (like GoodReader which turns a device into a WebDAV server). A developer who cared could actually make their app present a web UI that different players logged into with whatever mobile device they wanted.

Wouldn't work for every type of game... but couldn't that be awesome for, for example, a "bar trivia" style game?

This feature will appeal to the segment of the population that plays games on their smartphones. That is a much much larger percentage of the population than hardcore gamers who need a xbox/PS3.I am sure Apple is fine with that since its audience is plenty profitable to support the platform.

The Apple TV will not compete with high end consoles for a while but it will be more profitable out of the gate than Sony or MS ever was when they entered the gaming market.