... I particularly dislike music that comes from music students who study other cultures from outside of those cultures and then proceed to adopt said culture's sound having never lived it.

This was a central modus operandum of your hero Frank Zappa.

downer mydnyte wrote:

Fucking academia.

As an academic I find this offensive. Newton was an academic. Einstein was an academic. Ford was an academic. The combination of academia and engineering is what has shaped and expanded the bounds of what's possible throughout human history and continues to do so.

_________________The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

It was a joke. I know you're an academic. I'm sure you've noticed the down side of it.

polydigm wrote:

downer mydnyte wrote:... I particularly dislike music that comes from music students who study other cultures from outside of those cultures and then proceed to adopt said culture's sound having never lived it.

polydigm:This was a central modus operandum of your hero Frank Zappa.

Not really. Zappa was out in the world playing dives in Pomona and then all through L.A and then NYC by '67. Zappa rubbed up against and mingled with other cultures. He's from Los Angeles after all. Culture was colliding all around him and he was in the mix. And he threw a whole lot of originality into his mix. He wasn't exactly playing to polite audiences, that's for sure.

you really must be a sad and angry person, sorry to see that - hoping more smile for you (sorry for being personal). The way you see things is so totally far from my view that I cannot really express it.

polydigm wrote:

don't see how my opinion is going to change yours.

Well, from time to time you should TALK to people. Listenning to them, giving time for the conversation - it's REALLY interesting.

Going back to Ensemble Modern: I do agree with you on this: "The only real difference between Yellow Shark and Other Persuasions is Frank's presence.", so there is no real difference in the quality of music to me, too - and both are FAR from being my favorite. MOST of the "covers" there have much better versions elsewhere, the only exeptions for me are: Outrage at Valdez, maybe Exercise #4, and Pig with Wings. These are really beautiful - the rest are just worse, usually make me stop the CD-player and go back to the original recording. What I miss is the general feeling of the tunes, the richness of the orchestration (just make a comperison between Dog/Meat from EM and the one played on the Dub Room CD!), and the lack of the really good percussion lines - this can be heard beautifully on the LSO album, that's a real beauty in every minutes to me. The "human voice" and the improvisational parts are also a bit painful to me: not really funny, not strong enough musicalla - I usually skip them (the tune "Greggary" really makes me angry most of the times, with it's "trying to be funny, trying to imitate the original" habit. Let's go back to the original! So much more musical, live and funny.).

I do not really like the choice of tunes from EM: Ruth is Sleeping, G-Spot Tornado, Peaches just do not work on this orchestration (just listen to the flat monotony of the drums on G-Spot... Peaches seems to be a "pop song with a symphonic band" - how funny. The drum just doesn't fit.). Instead of these I really look forward to hear more recordings of different chamber- or symphonic works, like Sad Jane and (finally!) Sinister Footwear. It's a pity we only have a radio brodcast on that latter one, a really interesting/funny/great piece, would love to hear that in a professional recording!

Mr Balint, I'm not angry, I'm flabbergasted - there's a big difference. And I'm certainly very far from sad in myself although there are a lot of fucked up things in the world that make me sad. The Yellow Shark and Other Persuasions are very accomplished and enjoyable albums for me. Let's agree to disagree. When Frank Zappa asked if humour belonged in music, he didn't also say that he was the only one who was allowed to be humorous. I enjoy Ensemble Modern's version of Greggery Peccary and I'm sorry that you can't.

_________________The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

No don't take it that way. I wasn't being serious at all, hence why I said it like I did. I just feel this is all getting far too aggro. Lighten up guys.

You have to be careful NP. Sarcasm is lost in the written word. That's why these forums are equipped with the smilies. They don't always work either. At that point, you're probably dealing with someone who is just looking for a fight.

One thing's for sure. The passion displayed here has piqued my curiosity to check out this recording soon.

my two cents on "...persuasions" coming from a person who spends much time listening to 'classical':

I absolutely HATE the production, therefore I rarely listen to it. To me it was a massive missed opportunity and disappoints. But I speculate they did it that way to reach a larger audience. BAD IDEA (to my tastes).

Check out the producers resume/discography. They picked the wrong guy.

If you mean Yellow Shark as the other EM, well, that one is just perfect.

That's what everyone's saying - so there's still hope. But to me (right now) its just the same - maybe time helps. (For Trio Cucamonga: go Youtube! Nowhere else to find - I've made a recording for myself from there. )

re: EM. If you mean Yellow Shark as the other EM, well, that one is just perfect.

Just one side-note: to me its strange: the very same ensemble, working with the same method (I guess), and you (and others) find one album "perfect", but "hate" the other. How can it be - if they are such perfect musicians, if they are so perfect as a band? What I find there is totally the same behaviour, musicianship, skill... hm?...

my two cents on "...persuasions" coming from a person who spends much time listening to 'classical':

I absolutely HATE the production, therefore I rarely listen to it. To me it was a massive missed opportunity and disappoints. But I speculate they did it that way to reach a larger audience. BAD IDEA (to my tastes).

Check out the producers resume/discography. They picked the wrong guy.

No don't take it that way. I wasn't being serious at all, hence why I said it like I did. I just feel this is all getting far too aggro. Lighten up guys.

You have to be careful NP. Sarcasm is lost in the written word. That's why these forums are equipped with the smilies. They don't always work either. At that point, you're probably dealing with someone who is just looking for a fight.

One thing's for sure. The passion displayed here has piqued my curiosity to check out this recording soon.

I didn't take NP's comment in a negative way. I get the sarcasm and I was being slightly sarcastic myself. I'm fine with everyone here liking or hating any piece of music in existence. I never get offended by others opinions. Keep in mind that I am not posting in anger or looking to fight.

Anyway:Askin looks like he never gets his fingernails dirty. His music sounds like he never got his hands dirty. It's music created from the outside looking in. When/if EM ever gets inside the music then they might reach me. Everything I hear by them is all slippery, frictionless calisthenics. When Polydigm says he is flabbergasted I take that to mean that he can't believe someone else might not be the least bit impressed with what he has invested so much time and energy into believing is a supreme level of musicianship. In actuality it's mostly math-work.

aside:When you hear a band that lacks genuine melodic facility (I realize any sequence of notes can be considered a melody), then you're dealing with music fans who formed a band, or music school-damaged students, not musicians.

I never get offended by others opinions. Keep in mind that I am not posting in anger or looking to fight.

Whatever you're "looking" to do, actions have consequences and not always the intended ones. Good intentions don't absolve one from unintended consequences.

downer mydnyte wrote:

When Polydigm says he is flabbergasted I take that to mean that he can't believe someone else might not be the least bit impressed with what he has invested so much time and energy into believing is a supreme level of musicianship. In actuality it's mostly math-work.

For one not looking for a fight this is a very insulting interpretation of my perspective. I invested no energy at all into believing anything about this album. I enjoyed this album from the first time I heard it. But then, I'm unencumbered by reams of overcomplicated self rationalisation and over analysis of everything around me. All I've said is that I find it a simultaneously accomplished and expressive performance - no effort required - I haven't analysed it any further than that.

downer mydnyte wrote:

When you hear a band that lacks genuine melodic facility (I realize any sequence of notes can be considered a melody), then you're dealing with music fans who formed a band, or music school-damaged students, not musicians.

I sort of know what you mean, but you just come across as bitter. Lighten up.

_________________The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

re: EM. If you mean Yellow Shark as the other EM, well, that one is just perfect.

Just one side-note: to me its strange: the very same ensemble, working with the same method (I guess), and you (and others) find one album "perfect", but "hate" the other. How can it be - if they are such perfect musicians, if they are so perfect as a band? What I find there is totally the same behaviour, musicianship, skill... hm?...

Language Barrier issue. I don't like the PRODUCTION, the "sound" or call it 'ambiance' of the recording. Nothing to do with the musicianship. But this has inspired me to give it a listen soon, take it in smaller doses, see how I feel about it.

my two cents on "...persuasions" coming from a person who spends much time listening to 'classical':

I absolutely HATE the production, therefore I rarely listen to it. To me it was a massive missed opportunity and disappoints. But I speculate they did it that way to reach a larger audience. BAD IDEA (to my tastes).

Check out the producers resume/discography. They picked the wrong guy.

So, would you not recommend it for someone who for the most part only listens to Zappa's classical music?

Not sure what you mean, but it is of course a mandatory listen. Beggars can't be choosers. I'm rather zen-like about records. It is what it is, not gonna get worked up about it. And to reiterate: maybe it is the BEST place for the curious to start, as it does seem to me to be "sound-softened" for the masses.

That said, seems we can all anticipate more of the serious, which will help with a better understanding. 200 Motels; a big fz premiere coming up next year; maybe just maybe THE FIREWORKS ENSEMBLE disc, and the long anticipated synclavier for normal instruments recordings by Ascolta Ensemble. The Ascolta & Fireworks I have heard simply blows the EM persuasions out of the water.

What I really like is the chamber-sound (3 instruments only), the rhythmical perfection, and the freedom of assembling the setlist: some "classical" stuff, some "classic Zappa", some rearranget guitar-solo - great stuff! One of my favorite parts is the beginning of The Black Page: it starts with the "Rollo interior" stuff: violin + piano. Great!

What I really like is the chamber-sound (3 instruments only), the rhythmical perfection, and the freedom of assembling the setlist: some "classical" stuff, some "classic Zappa", some rearranget guitar-solo - great stuff! One of my favorite parts is the beginning of The Black Page: it starts with the "Rollo interior" stuff: violin + piano. Great!

That's a nice listen balint. Simple, yet grand, mellow, without being boring, interesting, without sounding crowded. Over all I like TC. All I have to compare is them to is EM or Ed Palermo's big band sound. This is nice and sparse where you can hear each instruments input into the whole composition. I find myself singing along on some parts, so that's pretty cool, thanx manx!

Its totally out of print (there's a live radio broadcast available at Zappateers), so I wrote to the guy who uploaded it if he would be so kind as to send it to me. The answer was: NO, "because of copyright reasons" (!!!). Remember: AFTER oploading it to youtube, and making it available for everyone...

So instead of getting the original (supposedly better quality) files, I had to use this to grab the music:

What I really like is the chamber-sound (3 instruments only), the rhythmical perfection, and the freedom of assembling the setlist: some "classical" stuff, some "classic Zappa", some rearranget guitar-solo - great stuff! One of my favorite parts is the beginning of The Black Page: it starts with the "Rollo interior" stuff: violin + piano. Great!

way too delicate for frank zappa music. needs some feedback and distortion.

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