I am a new climber and like to be as safe as possible while on the cliffs. What I've been using to attach myself to the rope is just a standard follow through figure 8. Now, I just came across a page on the internet which says to add a stopper knot for load bearing. What exactly does it mean by load bearing? Is that a heavy fall? If not, should I still put a stopper knot on if I'm just climbing? I still haven't grasped all of the climbing terminology so I've added a few pictures to help me explain what I'm talking about.

While a back up knot does add a bit of redundancy if you tie your knot incorrectly, they are largely superfluous. The most common way to finish a retraced figure 8 in my neck of the woods is to tuck the tail back thru the knot in one of the ways pictured below. It's a clean simple finish that doesn't add any bulk to the knot.

A backup knot for a figure-8 tie-in is optional, although it can't hurt. But do not use one of those extra follow-through finishes. The reason is arcane, but at least worth knowing about, and has to do with ring-loading the rope tie-in loop.

This happens if, for some reason, you attach yourself to an anchor by clipping a siing from the anchor into your tie-in loop. It also can happen if you clip your belay device to the rope loop rather than the harness belay loop, a practice with a number of advantages but one which raises the specter of ring-loading the rope loop.

The failure mode for a ring-loaded figure-8 loop is that it capsizes. The result is still a figure-8 loop, but the process eats up some of the tail, with the potential to untie the knot. It takes about 7kN to capsize a ring-loaded figure-8 loop, a number that is pretty hard to achieve short of a factor-2 fall. Practically speaking, it would seem this is good enough, although a backup knot would prevent capsizing altogether.

It is a different story for some of the follow through figure-8 finishes, which capsize at loads as low as 2.5 kN. That's a major reduction in security. Even if you never think you'd do anything to ring load the knot, I don't think it makes sense to knowingly choose to do something extra that significantly decreases a security aspect of the knot.

A backup knot for a figure-8 tie-in is optional, although it can't hurt. But do not use one of those extra follow-through finishes. The reason is arcane, but at least worth knowing about, and has to do with ring-loading the rope tie-in loop.

True, I don't know what to say about that finish, other than the thought that the extra bulk created by similar finishes makes it much easier for the knot to capsize. I don't know of any testing that settles the issue for the finish you mention one way or the other, but surely the evidence we do have suggests caution, wouldn't you say?

For those (a huge majority in North America) who don't clip their belay device to the rope loop, the issue of ring-loading is pretty academic. Nonetheless, as I said in the previous post, optional procedures that decrease any security aspect of the knot don't make much sense unless there is a very substantial offsetting pay-off. I don't see anything like that with figure-8 finishes.

... optional procedures that decrease any security aspect of the knot don't make much sense unless there is a very substantial offsetting pay-off. I don't see anything like that with figure-8 finishes.

The offsetting pay-off to the yosemite finish is making the knot much easier to untie after falling on it, especially if you don't dress that last tuck too well. As you mentioned, I don't know anybody who clips anything into the rope loop, and I don't plan on ever clipping anything into the rope loop, so Yosemite finish it is for me.

A backup knot for a figure-8 tie-in is optional, although it can't hurt. But do not use one of those extra follow-through finishes. The reason is arcane, but at least worth knowing about, and has to do with ring-loading the rope tie-in loop.

That video doesn't address the tuck with the wraparound, my understanding is that an extra wrap eliminates this issue

notapplicable wrote:

I´m fairly sure I tested this variation for somebody writing a book, I know I tested the normal tuck and I´ve have thought I´d done the wrap version as well as my brother uses this. Have to dig into the files in the morning and see. If I can´t find it then another rope-wrenching is in order. [image]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ejAk42p7jdY/SQngRwwdjlI/AAAAAAAAByg/OlnxdNtHSwU/s400/Yosemite+Finish+2.jpg[/image]

And there is an even better version of that knot, the version I use. Instead of having that bulky fishermans knot on top where it can get in the way of clipping, you take the tail and feed it back through the loops. I call it the Yosemite finish, but whatever, the name doesent really matter. The point is it is still safe but it eliminates some extra bulk.

... optional procedures that decrease any security aspect of the knot don't make much sense unless there is a very substantial offsetting pay-off. I don't see anything like that with figure-8 finishes.

The offsetting pay-off to the yosemite finish is making the knot much easier to untie after falling on it, especially if you don't dress that last tuck too well. As you mentioned, I don't know anybody who clips anything into the rope loop, and I don't plan on ever clipping anything into the rope loop, so Yosemite finish it is for me.

I actually prefer the fig8 without Yosemite finish for precisely the reason that it is hard to untie after a fall. It's a knot of Puritanical guilt; I've just fallen, I'm pumped, I can't untie the welded knot, and all that goes through my head is, "you're a shitty climber, you shouldn't have fallen but you did, and now look at what you have to do, you can't even untie your knot. don't fall again you fucking nitwit, or you may as well just give up and take up an easier hobby, like lawn darts."

And there is an even better version of that knot, the version I use. Instead of having that bulky fishermans knot on top where it can get in the way of clipping, you take the tail and feed it back through the loops. I call it the Yosemite finish, but whatever, the name doesent really matter. The point is it is still safe but it eliminates some extra bulk.

Wow, that's AMAZING! I can't believe that nobody in this thread mentioned the Yosemite finish before you did! Patent that shit, bro.

I've tried rethreaded fig 8s with both the yosemite finish and without, and from my experience, there is no difference in how hard it is to untie. I always use a perfectly dressed fig 8 though, so perhaps thats part of it. Others who don't dress their knots as well seem to report the finish helps them.

I think it's rope dependent, ultimately. The rope that I climb with most of the time, there is no benefit, with a different rope (that had a bit of sheath bunched up at the end of the rope) I found the finish actually made it harder to untie, while I have no doubt that many find the finish does help.

Oddly, I fall quite often, but I don't tend to struggle to untie my knots at all.

I've tried rethreaded fig 8s with both the yosemite finish and without, and from my experience, there is no difference in how hard it is to untie. . . . I think it's rope dependent, ultimately . . . I found the finish actually made it harder to untie . . .

Interesting to see someone else had the same experience with the "yosemite finish," I eagerly tried it to avoid stuck knot after falling, and it seemed that it either made no difference or possibly made untying harder. I now generally tie a Fig 8 so it's about the right length with no finish; if I misjudge and have extra, I tie strangle knot finish (and have no concern whether it stays tied).

Retraced bowline with "yos finish" (or strangle knot finish) seems like a good sport climbing tie in; I could never quite get comfortable with double bowline as many point out that a "finish" is absolutely essential, yet in my experience, a strangle knot finish may often come untied. Perhaps if you really take care in tying it and crank it down, it's good, but that's something I'd prefer not to have to worry about in a tie-in knot.

After reading that folks like rgold, jim titt and Mal Daly use the rethreaded bowline, I gave it a try. As advertised, the knot unties easy. However, after being weighted and holding a fall or two, the knot appeared to have shifted. I am not saying that it inverted or started to come untied, but it did not look as "neat" as an eight that has had similar stresses placed on it.

Has anyone else noticed this? How does your rethreaded bowline look after you have weighted / unweighted it a few times?

After reading that folks like rgold, jim titt and Mal Daly use the rethreaded bowline, I gave it a try. As advertised, the knot unties easy. However, after being weighted and holding a fall or two, the knot appeared to have shifted. I am not saying that it inverted or started to come untied, but it did not look as "neat" as an eight that has had similar stresses placed on it.

Has anyone else noticed this? How does your rethreaded bowline look after you have weighted / unweighted it a few times?

Well it does tighten up a bit unevenly since only one strand is really being loaded, I´ve some photo´s somewhere of it under load right up to breaking somewhere on my other computer if I ever get the beast to start up (it´s been annoying me which is a pain since it does my invoicing as well!). It´s very stable though, I use it for pulling single strands of Dyneema to death.

Thanks, Jim. That was the exact description I was looking for: "tighten up a bit unevenly." Hearing that you have noticed this too, and that it is not necessarily a sign that I have tied the knot incorrectly, makes me feel much better.

edit to add - If you get a chance, I would not mind seeing the pics you have of the knot after loading.