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Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Another reason I'd like to see them transition to the 4-3 is because I REALLY want them to draft Joe Vellano out of Maryland. Homer? Absolutely, but the guy just doesn't effin quit. He's kind of hard to find a spot for (from a traditional stance) because of his size (6'1" 285lbs), but the guy reminds me of a quicker Kelly Gregg. Complete underdog with a major chip on his shoulder.

Yeah, I like Vellano a lot too. I don't watch a ton of Maryland games really but from everything I've seen his motor is just non-stop and guys like that WILL get a shot in the NFL. Even if he doesn't have impressive measurables the guy has a TON of production. I would love to grab him with a 6th or 7th round pick as quality DL depth, but as you said he's a 4-3 only player. It's a real stretch to say this, but he reminds me a tiny bit of Geno Atkins. He doesn't have the athletic ability/quick first step of Atkins but he has a similar body type, motor, and instincts. Give the kid a shot and he might REALLY surprise.

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

I know some don't think much of him and I agree that it would be risky, but if he's still there, I'd like the team to take a chance on Mathieu with one of their mid round comp picks.

I think he'd be a good gamble at the very end of the 4th or 5th round.

Opinions on Mathieu are really all over the place and some of them are VERY concerning. Obviously the kid has substance abuse issues, but there are rumors going around that the drug situation is worse than that. It's been speculated that the kid is not just a user but maybe as bad as a mid-level distributor. We'll see what the outcome of the current litigation is but the kid caught a HUGE break when LE undercharged him with simple possession--and he won't get that kind of coddling outside of Baton Rouge.

Bottom line is that the kid is a huge risk even in the best case scenario and has a long way to go to prove to teams that he has an NFL future. He COULD do that if he goes the entire rest of the offseason squeaky clean and his background checks out. He made a good start by moving away from Baton Rouge, but south Florida is still not the kind of place you want to go to get clean and stay out of trouble. If he so much as has ONE more red flag pop up between now and draft day he will never play a down in the NFL and he might not anyway if he's still got questionable associations or below board activity.

That's not even talking about the football concerns. He has playmaking ability but what is his NFL position? He's clearly not a "real" corner, so what's the draft value of a nickel guy who has a good nose for the ball and some return ability? You're already talking about a mid-rounder WITH a clean background. Again, he still has time to improve his stock but right now he's a UDFA to me.

Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

Opinions on Mathieu are really all over the place and some of them are VERY concerning. Obviously the kid has substance abuse issues, but there are rumors going around that the drug situation is worse than that. It's been speculated that the kid is not just a user but maybe as bad as a mid-level distributor. We'll see what the outcome of the current litigation is but the kid caught a HUGE break when LE undercharged him with simple possession--and he won't get that kind of coddling outside of Baton Rouge.

Bottom line is that the kid is a huge risk even in the best case scenario and has a long way to go to prove to teams that he has an NFL future. He COULD do that if he goes the entire rest of the offseason squeaky clean and his background checks out. He made a good start by moving away from Baton Rouge, but south Florida is still not the kind of place you want to go to get clean and stay out of trouble. If he so much as has ONE more red flag pop up between now and draft day he will never play a down in the NFL and he might not anyway if he's still got questionable associations or below board activity.

That's not even talking about the football concerns. He has playmaking ability but what is his NFL position? He's clearly not a "real" corner, so what's the draft value of a nickel guy who has a good nose for the ball and some return ability? You're already talking about a mid-rounder WITH a clean background. Again, he still has time to improve his stock but right now he's a UDFA to me.

Of course he has some serious issues, but beyond the basics, none of us really know what the deal is currently. I am aware of the various opinions on him...basically from the late 3rd to not draftable.

The Ravens and NFL will do their due diligence on him. Frankly, I seriously doubt the Ravens take a chance on him. But personally...I would if I felt comfortable with his background checks to take a shot later.

As for his position...I don't think many are giving him credit...he can play any of the secondary spots IMHO as he has the football IQ and plays much bigger than his size would lead most to believe.

He'll fit in somewhere if he can get his life under control. Everybody isn't cookie cut for one particular spot and if you have a creative DC, he'll find a way to get a lot out of him.

Just my opinion.

Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.

Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

Originally Posted by Sirdowski

The Bengals will probably draft him in the second or third round to join their island of misfit toys.

The Bengals have done okay recently with those kind of guys. Marvin seems to be able to control them. Honestly if he got his shit together I think Mathieu could be a star. He's the same kind of playmaker that Webb is. He's going to put on 20 pounds and be one of the hardest hitters in the NFL.

He's living with Patrick Peterson's family. Peterson is as good a guy as you are going to find. Hopefully that helps him but I honestly don't know. Ozzie won't touch him.

The Bengals have done okay recently with those kind of guys. Marvin seems to be able to control them. Honestly if he got his shit together I think Mathieu could be a star. He's the same kind of playmaker that Webb is. He's going to put on 20 pounds and be one of the hardest hitters in the NFL.

He's living with Patrick Peterson's family. Peterson is as good a guy as you are going to find. Hopefully that helps him but I honestly don't know. Ozzie won't touch him.

Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

I actually am secretly hoping that they transition to a 4-3.

I think that the current guys would be an ideal 4-3 front 7. I also think that by moving to a 4-3, it will help out against the gaping holes in the middle. Ngata lined up beside Art Jones right in the middle would be a stout front. Suggs at DE, Kruger at DE (assuming they keep him), Upshaw at DE, McPhee at DE/DT, Tyson at DT...That is a pretty nice rotation.

The problem with the 4-3 is right now (now being the key word) they just do not have the line backers for a 4-3 alignment. Ellerbe would be a good 4-3 linebacker, but that's it. Everyone else that can or is playing ILB (McClellan) isn't fast enough to really be a true 4-3 LB. If you look at our defensive roster, at it's core, we have a lot of defensive ends playing line backer right now and that is a big reason why we can't cover the middle of the field effectively.

McClain - DE at Syracuse.
McClellan - DE at Marshall.
Kruger - DE at Utah.
Suggs - DE at ASU.
Upshaw - DE at Alabama (did play some stand up OLB though).

Ellerbe, Ray Lewis, Josh Bynes, and Ayanbadejo are the only guys who have been linebackers for any great length of time.

I like the hybrid scheme and the disguise it provides, and like you said we just dont have the guys that can move in space besides Ellerbe, who still has to be resigned first. If they can do that, and if they decide to keep Ray if he shows he can still be productive then i think we'd be in good shape provided we draft Ray's heir apparent as well as another mid to later round type of guy. That way we can get the infusion of athleticism to give us options in the nickel and pressure packages but not necessarily have to throw them to the wolves too early on.

I think one of the bigger keys going forward for our D will be Upshaw, he can roll out of the bed and set the edge. I think he has to really mold his body and conditioning in the offseason to be a guy that can bring solid pressure opposite Suggs. If he can do that and we are able to retain Kruger and keep him in his role i think we are in good shape on the edge. I'd still look for a later round conversion type guy as well as grooming Hamilton, Kindle and McAdoo and see who rises to the top as far as depth behind those guys.

Maybe once we acquire more athleticism on D we can look at moving to a 4-3 but not now imo. If we upgrade at the Nose i think we will have smoother transition back to being a upper echelon D but i do see your point and advantages of the 4 man front. I'm just a 3-4 guy at heart :-)

Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

Originally Posted by Carey

I like the hybrid scheme and the disguise it provides, and like you said we just dont have the guys that can move in space besides Ellerbe, who still has to be resigned first. If they can do that, and if they decide to keep Ray if he shows he can still be productive then i think we'd be in good shape provided we draft Ray's heir apparent as well as another mid to later round type of guy. That way we can get the infusion of athleticism to give us options in the nickel and pressure packages but not necessarily have to throw them to the wolves too early on.

I think one of the bigger keys going forward for our D will be Upshaw, he can roll out of the bed and set the edge. I think he has to really mold his body and conditioning in the offseason to be a guy that can bring solid pressure opposite Suggs. If he can do that and we are able to retain Kruger and keep him in his role i think we are in good shape on the edge. I'd still look for a later round conversion type guy as well as grooming Hamilton, Kindle and McAdoo and see who rises to the top as far as depth behind those guys.

Maybe once we acquire more athleticism on D we can look at moving to a 4-3 but not now imo. If we upgrade at the Nose i think we will have smoother transition back to being a upper echelon D but i do see your point and advantages of the 4 man front. I'm just a 3-4 guy at heart :-)

I like the 3-4 too, but you have to really consider that inside linebackers in a 3-4 are traditionally bigger, slower, and run stoppers. That is a big issue with the passing game these days and when you have TE's like Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham, and Vernon Davis you need athletic linebackers who can turn and run. In a sense, the MLB position has almost become an extension of the safety position. We're seeing more and more guys in college who were SS types bulking up and dropping down to LB.

Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

Of course he has some serious issues, but beyond the basics, none of us really know what the deal is currently. I am aware of the various opinions on him...basically from the late 3rd to not draftable.

The Ravens and NFL will do their due diligence on him. Frankly, I seriously doubt the Ravens take a chance on him. But personally...I would if I felt comfortable with his background checks to take a shot later.

As for his position...I don't think many are giving him credit...he can play any of the secondary spots IMHO as he has the football IQ and plays much bigger than his size would lead most to believe.

He'll fit in somewhere if he can get his life under control. Everybody isn't cookie cut for one particular spot and if you have a creative DC, he'll find a way to get a lot out of him.

Just my opinion.

This, i think 5th round maybe 4th would be the money spot for him right now imo but your certaintly right about his skill set. He could play outside, he could play in the slot, you could flip him back to FS, he can blitz, play man or zone, ballhawk, really he can do it all. Just all about what's between the ear's.

Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

I like the 3-4 too, but you have to really consider that inside linebackers in a 3-4 are traditionally bigger, slower, and run stoppers. That is a big issue with the passing game these days and when you have TE's like Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham, and Vernon Davis you need athletic linebackers who can turn and run. In a sense, the MLB position has almost become an extension of the safety position. We're seeing more and more guys in college who were SS types bulking up and dropping down to LB.

This. The traditional 3-4 is going the way of the dodo. Even the top 3-4 teams in the league don't play a traditional 3-4, most line up in a 4-3 a lot of the time, or otherwise use 4-3 concepts and personnel. The best 3-4 ILB tandem in the league is Patrick Willis and Navorro Bowman, and both of them are built like 4-3 weakside linebackers at 6'1 240 and 6'1 235. They can both fly around like crazy and they don't have to take on offensive linemen because their DL soaks up so many blockers.

If I were the Ravens DC, I'd play Ngata and Art Jones as the starting DTs. Plenty of run stopping power and both of them can apply pressure from the inside. Get Cody off the field, the kid is quite simply a bust, his technique is some of the worst I've ever seen and he's not getting any better. Suggs is your right defensive end, he plays better with his hand in the dirt anyway, let him abuse the left tackle every down in run and pass. Upshaw is your left defensive end and he's actually been playing probably close to 80% of his snaps as a down lineman anyway.

With Art Jones emerging as a real force, Ngata getting healthier, and McPhee and Tyson as reserves I think our DL is surging right now and it should get better. I think McClellan can play 4-3 SAM, re-sign Ellerbe to play the middle, and draft one of the many young uber-athletes at LB to play on the weak side. There are so many of them in this draft that can be had in the 2nd and 3rd, I listed them earlier, it would GREATLY improve our team speed and talent.

Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

I like the 3-4 too, but you have to really consider that inside linebackers in a 3-4 are traditionally bigger, slower, and run stoppers. That is a big issue with the passing game these days and when you have TE's like Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham, and Vernon Davis you need athletic linebackers who can turn and run. In a sense, the MLB position has almost become an extension of the safety position. We're seeing more and more guys in college who were SS types bulking up and dropping down to LB.

I think we are both of the same opinion about what we need and the evolution of the game but i think from a transitional point of view moving to a 4-3 next season would mean we'd have to turn over our LB core completely, more likely through the draft and have rookies play huge roles. I think if they did decide to move to a base 4-3 then the following year would allow the rookies more time to develop. But if we cant find a upgrade at the Nose then all bets are off lol.

Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

Also for a team with without many dominant pass rushers the 3-4 offers a little more ability to disguise and facilitate pressure, look at Darryl Washington closing in on a 10 sack season as a 3-4 ILB, thats insane. And it's not like he's a pass rusher really, he's just explosive and they are drawing up overloads to get him free. Ellerbe has shown some of that this year, imagine him next to an Arthur Brown on 3rd down. You guys really have me thinking on the 4-3 tho lol, making some compelling arguments.