Verducci's generally clueless. A lot of the saber guys I follow on Twitter spend a good amount of time laughing at him. About the only thing I take away from this article is another reason why the pitcher having to bat is fucking stupid.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

skatingtripods wrote:Verducci's generally clueless. A lot of the saber guys I follow on Twitter spend a good amount of time laughing at him. About the only thing I take away from this article is another reason why the pitcher having to bat is fucking stupid.

No way, man. You just don't appreciate the intricacies and beauty of the double switch, which is nearly impossible to implement, much less understand unless you are a genius, I.e. a national league fan.

Just look at what happened to poor Boston. Farrell (an American League Guy) tried and failed to double switch and his head literally exploded in the dugout. Salty had to clean it off the wall. He's dead now, because he tried to bring his bush league simple bullshit to the National league and couldn't hang with the big boys.

Anyone who doesn't see the beauty in watching a pitcher strike out 3 times a game and in the middle of rallies doesn't truly understand baseball. I mean, David Ortiz?...who would ever want to see that fat lump of shit hit. How boring.

motherscratcher wrote:Ok! I read through that link 3 times and I still don't see an explanation of what a bonus bat is.

The idea is that once per game you could bat any player out of order. So...should you walk Ortiz because 1B is empty, a pinch runner could take his place there and Ortiz could take a "bonus at-bat" now with the bases loaded.

I dunno why we just don't go with the "ghost runner on 1st" like we did as kids, but hey...ask Verduchi.

I still remember the first time we broke a neighbor's window with a baseball. Must have been a funny sight for anyone watching, a half dozen kids scattering in different directions. Like the scene from Holy Grail "RUNAWAY RUNAWAY!".

Nothing like a pitcher hurting an oblique or breaking his hand because of a pointless at bat. Pitchers are far too valuable in their craft to worry about hitting. I'd much rather my pitchers be breaking down slow motion video of their mechanics or studying opposing hitters than practicing ground outs to second.

If you want the pitcher to hit, then it needs to be done in both leagues.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

If you are a starting pitcher on this earth, you might have the most free time of anyone that has a "job." Put a little work into it.

I find it interesting that guys that are known for fanatical workout regiments in regard to their pitching craft, also somehow find time to handle the bat as well.

And I'm not a baseball purist. The games "unwritten rules" are generally dopey and Verducci's idea is ridiculous.

I thought you were the guy who liked to use your eyes? Despite the fact that you think pitchers "should" be able to handle the bat, what do your eyes tell you after watching them try to do it for the last 9 or 10 decades? Shoulda coulda woulda...they don't. Pitchers hitting sucks. Ortiz hitting doesn't suck.

skatingtripods wrote:Nothing like a pitcher hurting an oblique or breaking his hand because of a pointless at bat. Pitchers are far too valuable in their craft to worry about hitting. I'd much rather my pitchers be breaking down slow motion video of their mechanics or studying opposing hitters than practicing ground outs to second.

If you want the pitcher to hit, then it needs to be done in both leagues.

Adding 8 minutes to a starting pitchers work week will still give them about every other GD minute of the week to do the breakdowns - and learn how to help themselves and the team with the bat.

The both leagues deal is a valid one - and taking it further breaks down a main issue ILO, that is, the use of the DH from high school on. If there wwere no DH in the advanced ball they played coming up, you'd have a lot more pitchers that could hit. When you have guys that don't really need to pick up a bat from age 13 to the National League, you've got some sorry hitters.

If you are a starting pitcher on this earth, you might have the most free time of anyone that has a "job." Put a little work into it.

I find it interesting that guys that are known for fanatical workout regiments in regard to their pitching craft, also somehow find time to handle the bat as well.

And I'm not a baseball purist. The games "unwritten rules" are generally dopey and Verducci's idea is ridiculous.

I thought you were the guy who liked to use your eyes? Despite the fact that you think pitchers "should" be able to handle the bat, what do your eyes tell you after watching them try to do it for the last 9 or 10 decades? Shoulda coulda woulda...they don't. Pitchers hitting sucks. Ortiz hitting doesn't suck.

And yeah, Verducci's idea is the dumbest thing since Cop Rock.

My eyes tell me that a shmuck like Greg Maddux can pay half attention in the off-season and do some things to help him win games while guys bigger, faster, stronger and better athletes go 0-40 cause they're lazy.

And again, my eyes tell me that it's no real suprise that your Hall of Fame level pitchers have been good with the bat relative to the position.

By the way, not a hot button topic for me, if you like the DH, that's great. I like the NL way. I'm probably the minority, but there's no point in me lying about it.

Lastly, we've been around pro/collegiate sports long enough, the reason the leagues are split on it is cause there's no monetary value one way or another. Trust me, if they could make more money by having the pitcher hit, David Ortiz would be in the river with the tea.

skatingtripods wrote:Nothing like a pitcher hurting an oblique or breaking his hand because of a pointless at bat. Pitchers are far too valuable in their craft to worry about hitting. I'd much rather my pitchers be breaking down slow motion video of their mechanics or studying opposing hitters than practicing ground outs to second.

If you want the pitcher to hit, then it needs to be done in both leagues.

Adding 8 minutes to a starting pitchers work week will still give them about every other GD minute of the week to do the breakdowns - and learn how to help themselves and the team with the bat.

The both leagues deal is a valid one - and taking it further breaks down a main issue ILO, that is, the use of the DH from high school on. If there wwere no DH in the advanced ball they played coming up, you'd have a lot more pitchers that could hit. When you have guys that don't really need to pick up a bat from age 13 to the National League, you've got some sorry hitters.

leadpipe wrote:My eyes tell me that a shmuck like Greg Maddux can pay half attention in the off-season and do some things to help him win games while guys bigger, faster, stronger and better athletes go 0-40 cause they're lazy.

And again, my eyes tell me that it's no real suprise that your Hall of Fame level pitchers have been good with the bat relative to the position.

By the way, not a hot button topic for me, if you like the DH, that's great. I like the NL way. I'm probably the minority, but there's no point in me lying about it.

Lastly, we've been around pro/collegiate sports long enough, the reason the leagues are split on it is cause there's no monetary value one way or another. Trust me, if they could make more money by having the pitcher hit, David Ortiz would be in the river with the tea.

Greg Maddux of the career .171/.191/.205 line? Since the DH began, the best hitting pitcher (min 300 PA, only about half a season for a position player) has a 75 OPS+, kudos to the not-quite-HoFer Dontrelle Willis. In other words, one pitcher in the modern era has been able to outhit Alvaro Espinoza.

The median OPS for a HoF pitcher is a pitiful .458. We have to increase the sample size of PAs to look at the list of non-HOFers on BB-ref's play index (up to 610 PAs) to get the median for them, and it is .469. No HoFer topped a .700 OPS. Pitchers, regardless of pitching ability, just can't hit. Period.

leadpipe wrote:My eyes tell me that a shmuck like Greg Maddux can pay half attention in the off-season and do some things to help him win games while guys bigger, faster, stronger and better athletes go 0-40 cause they're lazy.

And again, my eyes tell me that it's no real suprise that your Hall of Fame level pitchers have been good with the bat relative to the position.

By the way, not a hot button topic for me, if you like the DH, that's great. I like the NL way. I'm probably the minority, but there's no point in me lying about it.

Lastly, we've been around pro/collegiate sports long enough, the reason the leagues are split on it is cause there's no monetary value one way or another. Trust me, if they could make more money by having the pitcher hit, David Ortiz would be in the river with the tea.

Greg Maddux of the career .171/.191/.205 line? Since the DH began, the best hitting pitcher (min 300 PA, only about half a season for a position player) has a 75 OPS+, kudos to the not-quite-HoFer Dontrelle Willis. In other words, one pitcher in the modern era has been able to outhit Alvaro Espinoza.

The median OPS for a HoF pitcher is a pitiful .458. We have to increase the sample size of PAs to look at the list of non-HOFers on BB-ref's play index (up to 610 PAs) to get the median for them, and it is .469. No HoFer topped a .700 OPS. Pitchers, regardless of pitching ability, just can't hit. Period.

I'd be interested in the numbers before the DH began, simply for the curiosity of, A. How things might change when they KNEW they were gonna hit all year, every year and B. The fact there wasn't the "coddling" of million dollar babies that arose in the modern era.

Anyways, chief reason I like NL is from a strategy standpoint, not because I'm enchanted with the OPS' of the pitchers.

Again, if they voted tomorrow DH forever, I ain't missin' a bite of my lunch.

leadpipe wrote:I'd be interested in the numbers before the DH began, simply for the curiosity of, A. How things might change when they KNEW they were gonna hit all year, every year and B. The fact there wasn't the "coddling" of million dollar babies that arose in the modern era.

Anyways, chief reason I like NL is from a strategy standpoint, not because I'm enchanted with the OPS' of the pitchers.

Again, if they voted tomorrow DH forever, I ain't missin' a bite of my lunch.

The "coddling" was simply recognizing how many arms were being blown out before the kid could actually contribute to the major league team, it had nothing to do with the money.

And I did use DH only years, as there may have been a difference. I'll leave you to looking up the next set of facts.

And as has been already said here, I don't know what this extra strategy is. Walking the #8 hitter or performing a double switch is something a 13 year old can figure out how to on his xbox MLB2k13 game.