Further Reading

Project SHAMROCK allowed the NSA to intercept telegrams sent by US citizens.

Its task was oversight, and the Church Committee's findings revealed major intelligence operations against American civil liberties. The problems included the regular interception of telegrams, the opening of mail, Project Shamrock, and Project Minaret, which intercepted electronic communications of select Americans and foreigners alike. Project Minaret even targeted people like Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, Muhammad Ali, Jane Fonda, and Sen. Frank Church himself, the chair of the oversight committee.

On Monday, surviving members and staff of the Church Committee published an open letter (PDF) to Congress, President Barack Obama, and the American public, calling for a “Church Committee for the 21st Century—a special investigatory committee to undertake a thorough, and public, examination of current intelligence community practices affecting the rights of Americans and to make specific recommendations for future oversight and reform.”

Notably, the letters authors offer this declaration: “The scale of domestic communications surveillance the NSA engages in today dwarfs the programs revealed by the Church Committee.”

There are already two privacy and civil liberties boards (one appointed by the President, one by Congress) that have called for reform, but neither has any real power beyond making recommendations. Since those recommendations have come out, President Obama has offered up some limited revisions to intelligence practices, but he hasn't gone as far as most civil libertarians would like.

Color me skeptical, but let's say such a committee is convened, I'm sure it will be like the other 2 and have no power to make changes, just recommend them. The other option is that they will just stack the committee with people who view the world and their activities the same as them (legal of course) and we'll get. "You just don't understand because you don't see what we see"

All government misdeeds are way worse now. Nixon got in hot water over what's pretty routine behavior nowadays. Also, back in 1975 the USofA has not yet invaded a foreign country under false pretenses. The US had a shiny pristine image until about mid to late 60s and Vietnam. That's almost 200 years of history. Then things went downhill ever since. Americans travelling overseas were fricken movie stars. Now we stick Canadian flags to our luggage....

If they give these committees no teeth to force policy change or prosecution, they are useless. We already know the abuses abound at such an unacceptable level already due to the work of Snowdon. Though I am glad they added their voice to those speaking out against these abuses.

Obama is dangerously close to going down in history as the surveillance president and he's running out of time to salvage his reputation.

This is Obama's show, yeah, and he'll deserve that reputation as things stand now, but this ball was started rolling by the preceding administration.

That's when the decision was made that stopping terrorists was more important than civil rights. Lots of people were scared then (including me, to my shame), from the ground-roots on up, and stopping the threat was paramount.

And I say that as a guy who didn't vote for Obama. Twice. And did vote for his predecessor. Twice.

All government misdeeds are way worse now. Nixon got in hot water over what's pretty routine behavior nowadays. Also, back in 1975 the USofA has not yet invaded a foreign country under false pretenses. The US had a shiny pristine image until about mid to late 60s and Vietnam. That's almost 200 years of history. Then things went downhill ever since. Americans travelling overseas were fricken movie stars. Now we stick Canadian flags to our luggage....

Though I agree with your first statement, the rest of what you stated is not correct. Do a bit of historical research and will find examples where we did invade or interfere with other countries under false pretense. Check Hawaiian history as an easy example and that is just one of many.

The NSA is like having a T-Rex to guard your house. Sure, he'll do a good job at scaring off intruders. But you'll have to pray every day that he still likes you when you get home. And good luck to you if you need to chastise him for behaving badly...

There is unlikely to be any true reform of NSA surveilance policies until there is some hardened congressional action. When it comes to surveillance the president/NSA wields near absolute power, and congress doesnt seem to care to do much but pay lip service to the anti-surveilance crowd. The patriot act was never designed to protect our freedoms, it was designed to take them away.

All government misdeeds are way worse now. Nixon got in hot water over what's pretty routine behavior nowadays. Also, back in 1975 the USofA has not yet invaded a foreign country under false pretenses. The US had a shiny pristine image until about mid to late 60s and Vietnam. That's almost 200 years of history. Then things went downhill ever since. Americans travelling overseas were fricken movie stars. Now we stick Canadian flags to our luggage....

"such an oversight committee may not have been as far off as it once seemed."

i would argue one huge difference is that amount of pork barrel contracts being doled out now for intelligence work is absolutely massive compared to what was done back in the day.

for example the "Fusion Centers" scattered across the country all brought in billions to various contracting firms, regardless of their effectiveness.

the Utah data center is another obvious example... contractors pouring in from thousands of miles away to get some nice contracts to build that thing.

the Trailblazer situation is kind of the best, most glaring example... the Dept of Defense Inspector General report detailed how Congress itself found the thing to be a boondoggle, but the people who blew the whistle on it, Drake, Loomis, Weibe, Diane Roark, etc, all got raided by the FBI and treated like criminals, with Drake narrowly escaping 30 years in prison.

you could argue that was alot more about contractors keeping their fat wads of cash than it was about responsible officials worried about the security of the nation.

snowden is not just a threat because of his uncovering of secret information, he is a threat to the bottom lines of various contracting companies, and the revolving-door relationship they have with regulators and congressmen who will dole out rewards for them, then go work for them before or after leaving office.

theoretically congress is supposed to be against this kind of waste, fraud, and abuse in the executive branch.. but Congress, including Diane Feinstein, have been silent and/or complicit in all of this stuff that has been going on for at least 13 years now. Congress critters career's live and die on pork, and IT / infosec pork is one of the biggest games in town. They aren't building jet fighters anymore in 100 different little towns across the country, but they can dole out various bits of IT contracts.

All government misdeeds are way worse now. Nixon got in hot water over what's pretty routine behavior nowadays. Also, back in 1975 the USofA has not yet invaded a foreign country under false pretenses. The US had a shiny pristine image until about mid to late 60s and Vietnam. That's almost 200 years of history. Then things went downhill ever since. Americans travelling overseas were fricken movie stars. Now we stick Canadian flags to our luggage....

Joke post? Are you familiar with the Spanish American war?

Sadly, America's experimentation with overt imperialism started as soon as the Founding Father's bodies cooled. Cuba, the Phillipines, our treatment of Native Americans, scamming the Hawaiians, are all black marks on our history. Though until recently we could truthfully say that we weren't as bad as the European powers. Not that that's anything to be proud of.

All government misdeeds are way worse now. Nixon got in hot water over what's pretty routine behavior nowadays. Also, back in 1975 the USofA has not yet invaded a foreign country under false pretenses. The US had a shiny pristine image until about mid to late 60s and Vietnam. That's almost 200 years of history. Then things went downhill ever since. Americans travelling overseas were fricken movie stars. Now we stick Canadian flags to our luggage....

Joke post? Are you familiar with the Spanish American war?

Sadly, America's experimentation with overt imperialism started as soon as the Founding Father's bodies cooled. Cuba, the Phillipines, our treatment of Native Americans, scamming the Hawaiians, are all black marks on our history. Though until recently we could truthfully say that we weren't as bad as the European powers. Not that that's anything to be proud of.

That's the hilarious thing about the original poster, the nsa is nothing compared to stuff from the past.

Looking at the Russians right now expanding their territory or the Germans screwing over the Greeks, that might still be true.

All government misdeeds are way worse now. Nixon got in hot water over what's pretty routine behavior nowadays. Also, back in 1975 the USofA has not yet invaded a foreign country under false pretenses. The US had a shiny pristine image until about mid to late 60s and Vietnam. That's almost 200 years of history. Then things went downhill ever since. Americans travelling overseas were fricken movie stars. Now we stick Canadian flags to our luggage....

Joke post? Are you familiar with the Spanish American war?

... yeah that one was bad.

For those not familiar, America essentially attacked Spain over a bad new paper article following a maritime accident and ended up controlling the Philippines (and putting down a rebellion rather brutally there).There was also that time we sort of invaded Russia after world war one that everyone seems to forget about So yeah, our foreign policy and corresponding world image hasn't exactly been super cuddly and world-friendly since a bit before the 1970's.Not saying though that us spying on everyone is doing our image any favors, but let's have a realistic understanding of our starting point in that conversation.

All government misdeeds are way worse now. Nixon got in hot water over what's pretty routine behavior nowadays. Also, back in 1975 the USofA has not yet invaded a foreign country under false pretenses. The US had a shiny pristine image until about mid to late 60s and Vietnam. That's almost 200 years of history. Then things went downhill ever since. Americans travelling overseas were fricken movie stars. Now we stick Canadian flags to our luggage....

Joke post? Are you familiar with the Spanish American war?

... yeah that one was bad.

For those not familiar, America essentially attacked Spain over a bad new paper article following a maritime accident and ended up controlling the Philippines (and putting down a rebellion rather brutally there).There was also that time we sort of invaded Russia after world war one that everyone seems to forget about So yeah, our foreign policy and corresponding world image hasn't exactly been super cuddly and world-friendly since a bit before the 1970's.Not saying though that us spying on everyone is doing our image any favors, but let's have a realistic understanding of our starting point in that conversation.

That post is the epitome of tech blog myopia. Everything is always the worst thing ever. The Spanish American war was probably worse than anything the us has been accused if on the last 100 years. The debates over the American empire were far more fierce than anything today. That said the us has a government capable of correcting itself over time and healing. Despite proclamations of doom and gloom it rarely is.

The government's actions since the scandal broke make me believe the only way this will get fixed (I.e. snooping requires probable cause or at least reasonable suspicion) is judiciary action.

But with the Supreme Court consistently ruling that nobody has standing to sue unless they can show they're a specific target, and the Star Chamber ruling that nobody has a right to know that they're a target, and the Chief Justice being the one and only person who appoints members of the Star Chamber, I find any hope of salvation by the judicial system terribly misplaced.

The government's actions since the scandal broke make me believe the only way this will get fixed (I.e. snooping requires probable cause or at least reasonable suspicion) is judiciary action.

But with the Supreme Court consistently ruling that nobody has standing to sue unless they can show they're a specific target, and the Star Chamber ruling that nobody has a right to know that they're a target, and the Chief Justice being the one and only person who appoints members of the Star Chamber, I find any hope of salvation by the judicial system terribly misplaced.

And no, I for one do not welcome our black-robed overlords.

It's a sad day when I'm more afraid of our black-robed evil overlords being judges then a good, old-fashioned necromancer.

The government's actions since the scandal broke make me believe the only way this will get fixed (I.e. snooping requires probable cause or at least reasonable suspicion) is judiciary action.

But with the Supreme Court consistently ruling that nobody has standing to sue unless they can show they're a specific target, and the Star Chamber ruling that nobody has a right to know that they're a target, and the Chief Justice being the one and only person who appoints members of the Star Chamber, I find any hope of salvation by the judicial system terribly misplaced.

And no, I for one do not welcome our black-robed overlords.

Ugh, didn't know about the Star Chamber part of that, I will have to read up. At this point it's them (judiciary) or congress. I'll still bet on the judiciary in that race to the bottom but the odds appear to have tightened up a bit.

Yes indeed - and it is politically "safe" - imagine what would have ensued (from the GOP and the country) if Obama had rolled back all this surveillance stuff previously and then Boston had happened?

It would take someone leading who does things because their right/moral - not the normal definition of a politician.

We'll have to force their hands and the Obama administration is dangerously close to being the 2nd coming of the Grant administration. I'd love to see Obama take the Church Commission up on this bit of common sense, but I'm sure he won't.

Also, back in 1975 the USofA has not yet invaded a foreign country under false pretenses.

Joke post?

Unsurprisingly, the rest of the world is more familiar with US foreign policy than the US public is.

Why is that a surprise? US foreign policy effects people outside the US more then US domestic policy does, and US domestic policy effects people in the US more then US foreign policy does.

As for Sen. Church being subjected to monitoring, that's really not surprising, he was in charge of an intelligent oversight committee, how much classified stuff do you think passed through his hands? And he may never have received clearance to view it.

Until there are public hearings, and the people who are running these agencies actually face serious consequences, such as 10 years in federal prison (no pardons allowed) , the situation can't be fixed. Without a deterrent to make the next person who runs the NSA or CIA be fearful of violating the constitution, there is no reason why they won't simply go on with business as usual.

The current system seems to be:- Violate the constitutional rights of 100's of millions of Americans.- Suffer some public outrage.- Retire with full benefits, and maybe work in the private intelligence sector.

Here is something to think about, G Gordon Liddy was one of the men that broke into the DNC headquarters of the Watergate building, to install wiretaps, and photograph private documents. He was sentenced to 20 years, of which he only had to serve 4 1/2 years.

So one man, working on behalf of the president violated the 4th amendment rights of a single organization, and he goes to prison. An agency working under the president violates the 4th amendment rights of every American, and even gets to lie about it while under oath to congress, and nothing happens.

No real stick there to encourage the next guys who hold those positions to actually change anything, now is there.

Here is something to think about as well, to add some perspective to how fucked we are as a country.

Just recently a South Carolina woman was arrested over a VHS tape she failed to return in 2005. The charges were dismissed, but she was still arrested.

Back when Obama took office, and the question about holding the people responsible for the torture of prisoners in Guantanamo bay (Bush, Cheney, the CIA, and some in the DOJ) the response was essentially that those events took place in the past, and we need to move on. The woman with the overdue tape was arrested and actually had to go to court. The people who decided to redefine torture as "enhanced interrogation" never even got arrested.

Want things to get better, then at every press conference, every town hall meeting, every time someone sees their congress critter or the president and they have an opportunity to ask a question, they simply need to ask the following question:

"Why did a woman who failed to return a 9 year old VHS tape suffer harsher consequences, by actually having to go though our legal system, than the people who, at that same time, decided to redefine torture so they could waterboard prisoners?"

Deny, Deceive, Degrade, Disrupt. They know those tactics have worked, when we stop asking the questions they don't want us to ask. If enough people when they have the opportunity, can simply ask the question i put forth, then that's the first step to changing what is monumentally fucked up about our current system.

The scary part is that our elected leaders have us trained to accept that the police state is in a just position due to the "war on [insert non-country specific term for enemy]." The non-stop political rhetoric also has us ready to blindly accept zero accountability of these wrong doings.

Also, back in 1975 the USofA has not yet invaded a foreign country under false pretenses. The US had a shiny pristine image until about mid to late 60s and Vietnam. That's almost 200 years of history.

"shiny pristine image" "not yet invaded a foreign country" ....I can quickly counter these claims with a few examples of American aggression and oppression:-Mexican War-Slavery-Spanish-American war-Japanese internment camps