With all the standard statistical/dps whoring and more disclaimers I have looked at the destro locks with the highest heroic ToT parses in 10 and 25 to check for trends.

Indeed there are a few.

The most popular reforging stratégies are:
1. Mastery then Haste
2. Haste then Mastery
With a well know exception preferring Crit then Haste

Gemming is more diverse but with 3 preferred strategies:
- Mastery heavy such as Mastery, Hit/Mastery, Int/Mastery
- Haste heavy such as Haste, Haste/Hit, Haste/Exp
- Int heavy such as Int, Int/Hit, Int/Mastery

This may give you ideas to try and see if they work for you.

On a side note are you still using simcraft as the primary tool to optimize although it sims encounters so different from ToT encounters?
Are you changing the main options such as Fight style and number of ennemies to look for a sim more closely ressembling ToT?

With all the standard statistical/dps whoring and more disclaimers I have looked at the destro locks with the highest heroic ToT parses in 10 and 25 to check for trends.

Indeed there are a few.

The most popular reforging stratégies are:
1. Mastery then Haste
2. Haste then Mastery
With a well know exception preferring Crit then Haste

Gemming is more diverse but with 3 preferred strategies:
- Mastery heavy such as Mastery, Hit/Mastery, Int/Mastery
- Haste heavy such as Haste, Haste/Hit, Haste/Exp
- Int heavy such as Int, Int/Hit, Int/Mastery

This may give you ideas to try and see if they work for you.

On a side note are you still using simcraft as the primary tool to optimize although it sims encounters so different from ToT encounters?
Are you changing the main options such as Fight style and number of ennemies to look for a sim more closely ressembling ToT?

I would guess that any gemming strategy where they are gemming straight mastery or haste is simply they are using their afflic gemming, and as the difference in dps would be minimal, they are just keeping the same gemming. If you are gemming specifically for destro, im pretty sure that you should gem for as much Int as possible or you are doing it wrong. At least at all the gear levels ive seen int is scaling better for destro than secondary stats.

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I would guess that any gemming strategy where they are gemming straight mastery or haste is simply they are using their afflic gemming, and as the difference in dps would be minimal, they are just keeping the same gemming. If you are gemming specifically for destro, im pretty sure that you should gem for as much Int as possible or you are doing it wrong. At least at all the gear levels ive seen int is scaling better for destro than secondary stats.

I play only Destro on all the fights and I gem Mastery all the way.

I think this has already been discussed in several threads on these forums, but stacking Mastery as Destro is justified by the fact that we use CB/SB/FnB much (much) more (and better) in real fights than Simcraft does in simulations, because of RoF / Havoc.

I think this has already been discussed in several threads on these forums, but stacking Mastery as Destro is justified by the fact that we use CB/SB/FnB much (much) more (and better) in real fights than Simcraft does in simulations, because of RoF / Havoc.

In the guide, Brusalk mentions going GoSac for cleaving & aoeing is still the way to go ( and so is mastery then). but if you stick to a mastery gear setup, do you still stick GoSac for Single target bosses (talking, jinrokh, megeara, Iron Qon eg.) or do you utilise GoSup/Serv ?

EDIT:
just tried a quick test on a dummy and i my dps dropped with more than 15k with Sac on single target (mastery built). i think i have my answer

I should try a Havoc macro one day, this is annoying on some fights especially when the nameplates are very high

We have started Twins H too yesterday, how is your Haste/Crit reforging working out in P1/P2 Brusalk ?

You really should. I can't live without it.

Haste/Crit is working great. I'm top damage 99% of the time, unless the fire mage just combusted and he's still going back down to his average damage.

I'm having better results running with Fel-imp than Observer interestingly enough. (Plus Cauterize or w/e the heal is is quite useful on Twins)

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 08:19 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Link3r

I have some questions but this account is new and i cant send MP to who i want so ill post those here

First of all, im sorry for my english, im belgian and yes i like beer and chips =)

I dont know if you would reply to this or something but i have some questions/tips to ask at some pro-destrolock.

As asked by my guild, i just leveled up my old warlock 85 to complete our dps roster (Dinged 90 yesterday, yay !).
I played him destro from the beginning and dont want to go affli like all the locks atm... (Im pretty sure you'll understand this)
We just have runned yesterday in some easy boss to stuff myself a bit And in one run, i got some luck in drops, happy me.

Now, i have to decide a way to follow in stats prioritize. All the guides on the net are always a bit differents from each others and im not sure of what to do. So, im here.

You (Brusalk) say that "haste = crit > mastery" (after the hit cap ofc).
So my questions are :
1°) Why yours yellow sockets are intell/mastery and not intell/crit or haste ??
2°) Did you fix a haste limit cap to hit before going on crit ? Or you just reforge like "i reforge this one in haste and this one in crit and the next in haste maybe" ?
(Waist reforged haste from mastery - Legs reforged crit from hit)
3°) If crit = haste then, why dont go deep in one like full crit or full haste ?

Id understand if you dont have time for this but ill be grateful, very gratefull for those extra tips ! =)

By the way, thanks for reading and good luck in your HL raids guyz !

A friendly lost lock.

Mastery is undervalued in Simc to begin with, and as you get more targets Mastery's value increases. In addition there's only one or two single target fights in ToT, and even then there's a health debate over haste/crit and mastery. I just go with mastery because it's better for both Destro for add fights and AoE, as well as optimal for Demo off-spec.

I didn't do anything with a haste limit cap, though I try to keep haste and crit even.

Haste and Crit scale with each-other to some degree. I could go deeper into haste, or deeper into crit, but I feel like the rotation is the most fluid when haste is about equal to crit.

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 08:19 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Lemie

Just put the nameplates on the floor, makes for easy manual targeting!

Decent guide but I do miss something important in the rotation section.

What I personally like to do is to save my Dark Soul and my Use trinket at the start and then build up embers. This way I get the crit buff plus a huge intellect buff when casting 4 chaos bolts. And since use trinkets have 1 min CD I try to make sure I have 4 embers when both of the cooldowns are available again. This does force me to watch out for my buffs to avoid capping embers before both cooldowns are available but overall I don't think it hurst to much to wait a 20 secs or something before using trinkets.

My problem is that I'm using RoY 2/2 and the Volatile talisman. With a BL pull my incinerate goes down to like 0.6s cast with a haste heavy build which is just unbearable. Sticking to crit heavy with around 4k haste until I can ditch it for now.

With all the standard statistical/dps whoring and more disclaimers I have looked at the destro locks with the highest heroic ToT parses in 10 and 25 to check for trends.

Indeed there are a few.

The most popular reforging stratégies are:
1. Mastery then Haste
2. Haste then Mastery
With a well know exception preferring Crit then Haste

Gemming is more diverse but with 3 preferred strategies:
- Mastery heavy such as Mastery, Hit/Mastery, Int/Mastery
- Haste heavy such as Haste, Haste/Hit, Haste/Exp
- Int heavy such as Int, Int/Hit, Int/Mastery

This may give you ideas to try and see if they work for you.

On a side note are you still using simcraft as the primary tool to optimize although it sims encounters so different from ToT encounters?
Are you changing the main options such as Fight style and number of ennemies to look for a sim more closely ressembling ToT?

I use simcraft to simulate stat weights with various settings to get fight styles at least a bit closer, with the caveat that Mastery is inherently going to be undervalued.

However a lot of my theorycrafting on best stats is somewhat subjective in that the actual playstyle of Destro on fights prioritizes spells which are hard to describe in a Simc APL.

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 08:24 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Morgase

In the guide, Brusalk mentions going GoSac for cleaving & aoeing is still the way to go ( and so is mastery then). but if you stick to a mastery gear setup, do you still stick GoSac for Single target bosses (talking, jinrokh, megeara, Iron Qon eg.) or do you utilise GoSup/Serv ?

EDIT:
just tried a quick test on a dummy and i my dps dropped with more than 15k with Sac on single target (mastery built). i think i have my answer

Can you tell me what part of the guide is giving you the impression that Havoc for 2-target cleave is the way to go? This seems to be a common misconception so I'd like to clear it up.

Sac is balanced with Sup/Serv on two target cleave. Single target Sac is drastically behind, unless fight mechanics make your ember consumers a significant portion of your damage (>50% with just CBolt/SBurn is my rule of thumb, while not using Sac for those numbers) And even then Sac is still behind the Imps in theoretical DPS with 2 targets up 100% of the time.

Also on fights where there's nothing but AoE, you will get more benefit out of Sup/Serv as Sac doesn't benefit FnB'd spells whatsoever, while Sup/Serv still increases your damage on one of the targets.

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 08:28 AM ----------

Originally Posted by ati87

Decent guide but I do miss something important in the rotation section.

What I personally like to do is to save my Dark Soul and my Use trinket at the start and then build up embers. This way I get the crit buff plus a huge intellect buff when casting 4 chaos bolts. And since use trinkets have 1 min CD I try to make sure I have 4 embers when both of the cooldowns are available again. This does force me to watch out for my buffs to avoid capping embers before both cooldowns are available but overall I don't think it hurst to much to wait a 20 secs or something before using trinkets.

I found that that's a DPS loss to do in my personal play, which is why I recommend an opener where you pop DS/Trinkets off the pull.

Also keep in mind that off the pull not only will you have proc trinkets, but you'll also have a Pot as well as potentially raid dps cds such as stormlash and skull banner.

I also wouldn't recommend trying to save DS for other cooldowns. It's just not worth it in my experience.

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 08:28 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Liquidsteel

My problem is that I'm using RoY 2/2 and the Volatile talisman. With a BL pull my incinerate goes down to like 0.6s cast with a haste heavy build which is just unbearable. Sticking to crit heavy with around 4k haste until I can ditch it for now.

Well, at that much haste you should be having to RoF like every 3-4 seconds, so at least there's that :P

Can you tell me what part of the guide is giving you the impression that Havoc for 2-target cleave is the way to go? This seems to be a common misconception so I'd like to clear it up.

Sac is balanced with Sup/Serv on two target cleave. Single target Sac is drastically behind, unless fight mechanics make your ember consumers a significant portion of your damage (>50% with just CBolt/SBurn is my rule of thumb, while not using Sac for those numbers) And even then Sac is still behind the Imps in theoretical DPS with 2 targets up 100% of the time.

Also on fights where there's nothing but AoE, you will get more benefit out of Sup/Serv as Sac doesn't benefit FnB'd spells whatsoever, while Sup/Serv still increases your damage on one of the targets.

I presume you mean Sac there, as i didn't mention Havoc at all . anyhow i read your guide again and tbh once i reread it again it was alot more clear. i think the general (& mine) misconception lies in the fact that you explain it too well (that's a good thing!) Sometimes people look for an easy fix answer and just skim the guide and they hop over facts like the above.
If i'm honest my so-called redirect to your guide was probably wrong then due to the fact that it has been a long time since i've read it completely and it's alot of details to soak in if you're dropped right into destro & are expected to play it without a flaw.

mm if i would edit the guide, i'd add a little "WHY & WHEN GoSup/Sac" in bold so ppl are immediately drawn to that.

EDIT:----

Actually, i think it would be clearer if instead of xplaining Sup & Sac in your guide , i'd make 2 paragraphs about Single, multiple & AOE dps just like you did for the rotation but then going over the stuff all next to rotations. (eg. you could add the megaeara tip for cleaving for more single target dps where the 2nd target doesn't matter for effective dps)

Is it a dps loss to go Mastery + supremacy? I like mastery and I used to play Go Sac only but I´m enjoying using a pet again for PvE, mostly the fel Imp.

I´m currantly on Haste build but sometimes I just think it casts too fast when the raid buffs and all, because my ms is bad I sometimes miss some casts even if I try spamming the key, so I thought about going back to mastery but still using pet.

With UVLS procced as destro, what are you supposed to do? Chaos bolt or incinerate/conflag for damage, or fel flame to give embers and to increase duration of immolate?

I personally will only aim to fit in Chaos Bolts if it procs during a Chaos Bolt cast (as after the first is finished I'll have time to fit in another) or the end of another cast. Otherwise I'll reapply Immolate, use Conflags if I have them and make sure RoF is up.

I actually never thought about Fel Flaming during it for refreshing the immolate instead, but I'll have to try that out as that should definitely be better for ember generation. (That is if you make sure to not have a Fel Flame land after Unerring has ended and override the 100% crit immolate)

Originally Posted by Dumaw

Is it a dps loss to go Mastery + supremacy? I like mastery and I used to play Go Sac only but I´m enjoying using a pet again for PvE, mostly the fel Imp.

I´m currantly on Haste build but sometimes I just think it casts too fast when the raid buffs and all, because my ms is bad I sometimes miss some casts even if I try spamming the key, so I thought about going back to mastery but still using pet.

I don't believe that a mastery GoSup build is a dps loss (I'm currently running it so I sure hope not XD) as we're using ember consumers much more and generating a lot more embers over the course of an encounter.

With UVLS procced as destro, what are you supposed to do? Chaos bolt or incinerate/conflag for damage, or fel flame to give embers and to increase duration of immolate?

It's a wash between getting a full-duration Immo or trying to fit a chaos bolt in.

I just immo cause it's easier

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 05:11 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Dumaw

Is it a dps loss to go Mastery + supremacy? I like mastery and I used to play Go Sac only but I´m enjoying using a pet again for PvE, mostly the fel Imp.

I´m currantly on Haste build but sometimes I just think it casts too fast when the raid buffs and all, because my ms is bad I sometimes miss some casts even if I try spamming the key, so I thought about going back to mastery but still using pet.

Pure single target? Like 1-2k according to other people.

Non-pure single target? It only gets closer and closer the more you can use ember consumers.