The number of Leica stores / corners has mushroomed in the last years (just in Geneva, Switzerland they have 3). Each of them has a Leica S. Since they are all independent retailers, I am sure Leica books these as sales! But this does not mean they are sold to a photographer. In all stores they told me they had not sold a single Leica S since they opened the Leica corner (mostly M's).

This Forbes article looks very much as publicity to push these merchandise to the more wealthy ones.

MrSmith

It wouldn't surprise me to see Leica copying H-Blad and start pushing the S in the luxury press.Just need a few more mentions in the upper class luxury blog-sphere and the transition from imaging company to luxury bauble peddler will be complete

BTW the number of MF sold yearly is more like 12-15k and that includes Leica,Pentax, Phase,Leaf and Hassy and that came from a reliable source. Don't ask me who either. Leica is more like 10 percent which is 1500 per year and that was Leicas estimate when it was first released. Give them credit they pretty much hit there numbers but its also true many of every brand is dealer or retail stock as well. The S system is growing but at a snails pace since it took at least 3 years to get a decent set of lens numbers and there sensor is also getting old in the tooth. It's a nice system but like Pentax a lot if Pros have not got onboard simple because of backups, software, service. There really is no cheap backup body like getting a old used Mamiya, Contax or Blad for under a grand to throw in your bag. Obviously also depends how you look at backups as well . For many a Nikon or Canon is available. Regardless of what some think is true it still is growing but its also in a cycle and it has slowed down some. But used has picked up. Also part of that is nothing really new either to upgrade too. Phase seems to be the only one at the moment with some new meat to buy. Rumors are Pentax is coming with a new 645. Leica rumors a new sensor maybe next year. Phase a new body. Hassy has the H5 but question marks go with them. Leaf seems to follow Phase on back technology. Phase has 3 brands . Phase, Leaf and Mamiya and serve different markets.

We should add here Cambo, Alpa and Arca seem to be having great success lately as a lot if interest has really picked up with tech cams. Now with that growth there is growth in 35 and Mirrorless as well. From my seat the industry at large seems to be growing and doing well and I did not even touch in video and Pro and Prosumer cams are really growing.

Regardless of what some think is true it still is growing but its also in a cycle and it has slowed down some.

That wouldn't seem to tally with what Steve said earlier in the thread?

Quote

I know for a fact what some of the numbers were for various manufacturers in given years. I expect 6,000 units today to be a reasonable estimate, it wouldn't surprise me if it was even higher. It is probably less than the peak years of MFD sales, which to my estimation likely parked in the 8,000 - 9,000 range. If today is only down 15% - 20% I consider that quite a compelling argument in favor of the staying power of MFD, considering the advances 35mm has made in that same timespan.

BTW the number of MF sold yearly is more like 12-15k and that includes Leica,Pentax, Phase,Leaf and Hassy and that came from a reliable source. Don't ask me who either. Leica is more like 10 percent which is 1500 per year and that was Leicas estimate when it was first released. Give them credit they pretty much hit there numbers but its also true many of every brand is dealer or retail stock as well. The S system is growing but at a snails pace since it took at least 3 years to get a decent set of lens numbers and there sensor is also getting old in the tooth. It's a nice system but like Pentax a lot if Pros have not got onboard simple because of backups, software, service. There really is no cheap backup body like getting a old used Mamiya, Contax or Blad for under a grand to throw in your bag. Obviously also depends how you look at backups as well . For many a Nikon or Canon is available. Regardless of what some think is true it still is growing but its also in a cycle and it has slowed down some. But used has picked up. Also part of that is nothing really new either to upgrade too. Phase seems to be the only one at the moment with some new meat to buy. Rumors are Pentax is coming with a new 645. Leica rumors a new sensor maybe next year. Phase a new body. Hassy has the H5 but question marks go with them. Leaf seems to follow Phase on back technology. Phase has 3 brands . Phase, Leaf and Mamiya and serve different markets.

That wouldn't seem to tally with what Steve said earlier in the thread?

My source is not coming from a dealer and lets leave it at that. Any info further is just bait for the trolls, I don't feed trolls. The number really has no meaning anyway as all that really matters is growth, technology advancements, and the ability to put new product in our hands instead of ripping it apart as many seem to think that does some good which it truly does not. We all want new and improved product to choice from. You don't get that without us supporting the OEMs , that does not man burying issues but finding solutions is much more beneficial to us shooters in the end.

It's a nice system but like Pentax a lot if Pros have not got onboard simple because of backups, software, service. There really is no cheap backup body like getting a old used Mamiya, Contax or Blad for under a grand to throw in your bag.

Backups....?Your saying that Pros are not buying Pentax 645D cameras because they can't get a backup.

Well that's just not how discussion and debate work. You don't get to walk off and request that's the end of the conversation.

Yes - the absolute numbers aren't actually very important, and what is important is growth in the market place. But what we have here as a Steve who, as a dealer, presumably has some pretty good insight into the market, and you - who, with your connections also presumably have a very good insight - claiming totally the opposite thing.

It is quite possible that you're referring to different measurements of course. Perhaps Steve is referring to sales of new backs only, and you are referring to sales of new and re-furbed. Who knows? Well, nobody is going to have a clue with so much obfuscation going on.

What I find simply astonishing is the attitude shown by "insiders"who should be doing everything they can to reassure those considering buying into MFDB that they're making a wise choice.

We're talking about people considering "investing" anything from $10K to $100K and up in their "support" of the OEMs.

Don't you (and Steve) think that those people - and I most certainly include myself in that group - deserve a little more respect than to read conflicting "well, I'm well connected and in the know and you're just going to have to trust me on this when I say the market is growing/declining [delete as appropriate]" statements of "fact", and then to be told that's the end of the discussion? That any further information is bait for trolls?

Well that's just not how discussion and debate work. You don't get to walk off and request that's the end of the conversation.

Yes - the absolute numbers aren't actually very important, and what is important is growth in the market place. But what we have here as a Steve who, as a dealer, presumably has some pretty good insight into the market, and you - who, with your connections also presumably have a very good insight - claiming totally the opposite thing.

It is quite possible that you're referring to different measurements of course. Perhaps Steve is referring to sales of new backs only, and you are referring to sales of new and re-furbed. Who knows? Well, nobody is going to have a clue with so much obfuscation going on.

What I find simply astonishing is the attitude shown by "insiders"who should be doing everything they can to reassure those considering buying into MFDB that they're making a wise choice.

We're talking about people considering "investing" anything from $10K to $100K and up in their "support" of the OEMs.

Don't you (and Steve) think that those people - and I most certainly include myself in that group - deserve a little more respect than to read conflicting "well, I'm well connected and in the know and you're just going to have to trust me on this when I say the market is growing/declining [delete as appropriate]" statements of "fact", and then to be told that's the end of the discussion? That any further information is bait for trolls?

I owe no one nothing lets make that perfectly clear. And yes I do have the right to walk away. Don't like it sorry .

Seems to me if backup is important the choice would be the Pentax hands down and that's even without considering dual memory cards and far superior weather sealing.

You seem to grab everything out of context but of course that is what trolls do . There are many reasons and your fully aware of them but again you pick and select what makes you look the best and not always with facts. Neither the Leica nor Pentax has a efficient tethering program on release of there cams for instance. Pentax you could not even buy outside of Japan and still maybe has two new lenses built for this cam. Leica had one or two lenses on release and finally after 3 or 4 years has about 7. These are just a few examples like a backup body that make buy decisions. Of course we all many decisions are made into buying any system and as always there is no single perfect system not even your Nikon which I BTW I shoot also. Does Pentax offer you a free loaner system next day , no they do not. Leica does offer that as well as Phase. I believe Hassy does as well . Put simply IMHO Pentax offers the least available options,products, service and dealer support for the working Pro. Leica is doing much better on that but again it has taken time to get there. I just recommended to a good friend to get the Pentax but it is his hobby and he wants to get into MF which is great . The Pentax will serve him well and as time has marched of a lot of Pros have jumped onboard the Pentax system. With that now they can buy it here in the states and have some support. I like the Pentax a lot and I came within inches of buying the Leica S but not until today would feel comfortable about putting all my eggs in one basket with them. But it does seem like they are doing well and that's great. I'm looking forward to what Pentax does next but its been pretty quiet from them too. Lowering prices does give some clues as too maybe something soon. I hope so

See Fred its about the format not the brand that counts here. I own the Nikon very nice system with very good image quality but its not the end all and its not MF which I personally have done a lot of testing on them not steal tests from others and post about it that your not even sure what they did. I owned 5 backs and have posted many tests on them.

See we ALL know you have a bone to pick with Phase and I understand a bit of that but you refuse to take blame on yourself. You buy off eBay you avoid all dealers than crucify them daily for no good reason except to be that itch in people's jocks. You blame Phase for the issues you may have had or not meeting your expectations. You than say in a post here to buy direct from the OEMS but you crucify them daily.

I'm sure you will come back with some more tests more quotes and more bullshit to make yourself look good. We are expecting it trust me. You never fail to deliver a post that makes Fred look wise.

Btw posted here many times from our dealer friends the amount of backs that have truly failed on there own without some user doing something to it is very low. You even admit in some posts here that these backs are like tanks . I owned 5 of them and outside a delivery issue with a new one never had a problem and I had a loaner the next morning by my dealer and replacement back within a week. My IQ 160 to be exact. Avoiding buying from dealers IMHO is a bad investment. Even used there is a grace period. Not that I care where people buy from its there money but I always recommend a dealer as mine has always been there for me and yes Steve's company he works for is my dealer and they always have been there for me. So I'm very dealer friendly as it is your best support you can get.

interesting to see how this thread is morphing from one about numbers into one about other factors apart from the usual technical ones that differentiate the different camera formats such as support, role of dealers, type of end user, etc

interesting to see how this thread is morphing from one about numbers into one about other factors apart from the usual technical ones that differentiate the different camera formats such as support, role of dealers, type of end user, etc

Numbers mean nothing without growth behind them. Numbers are meaningless without growing the business and these OEMs need growth to survive. So does any business for that matter. There is no secret sauce here, products need to sell to make new products. They need our support for that growth , don't we all want new and innovative product in our hands. Watching these businesses taking nose dives will never get that in our hands. We need solutions and innovation not ripping these companies to the core. I don't shoot Hassy but I sure as hell don't want to see them fail either. New investors and still no growth outside the H5 makes me nervous.

Well that's just not how discussion and debate work. You don't get to walk off and request that's the end of the conversation.

Yes - the absolute numbers aren't actually very important, and what is important is growth in the market place. But what we have here as a Steve who, as a dealer, presumably has some pretty good insight into the market, and you - who, with your connections also presumably have a very good insight - claiming totally the opposite thing.

It is quite possible that you're referring to different measurements of course. Perhaps Steve is referring to sales of new backs only, and you are referring to sales of new and re-furbed. Who knows? Well, nobody is going to have a clue with so much obfuscation going on.

What I find simply astonishing is the attitude shown by "insiders"who should be doing everything they can to reassure those considering buying into MFDB that they're making a wise choice.

We're talking about people considering "investing" anything from $10K to $100K and up in their "support" of the OEMs.

Don't you (and Steve) think that those people - and I most certainly include myself in that group - deserve a little more respect than to read conflicting "well, I'm well connected and in the know and you're just going to have to trust me on this when I say the market is growing/declining [delete as appropriate]" statements of "fact", and then to be told that's the end of the discussion? That any further information is bait for trolls?

Going back to this . I never said this was a verifiable number either for all I know it could be more marketing spin. If I could verify that would be nice but without getting real numbers from each company which is next to impossible and you know that than in many ways its a best guess answer. I really dislike your tone here as its pretty insulting which I do not deserve either since when do I spill lies and deceit in these forums. I'm a working Pro father of 2 a husband run 2 businesses and have a wife with breast, lung and brain cancer in the last 3 years do you really think I give a shit about these stupid debates and worse having to read a bunch of BS from trolls. Do you really think I care. I do not but I do care deeply about this industry that has supported my art for the last 35 years plus and I will support it the best way I can because I do care what is written in these forums and the deceit runs wild. I would spend half my life trying to correct this crap. I don't have the time for stupid debates and was this not all marketing spin from Leica to start this thread to begin with. Go verify Leicas numbers for us if it matters to you.

BTW Steve is a dear friend and he is a very knowledgable guy and on top of that one of the best around and this has zero to do with what he says. Want to make that perfectly clear.

Well of course, everyone can pick up their ball and walk off the field whenever they want.

Cheerio!

Well not exactly you can walk away from people that make insulting comments as you have done and stupid debates that just feed negativity. I'm not into being negative about this industry but here to support it as a consumer.

Well not exactly you can walk away from people that make insulting comments as you have done and stupid debates that just feed negativity. I'm not into being negative about this industry but here to support it as a consumer.

I've been insulting? Where?

You've got the support thing all upside down by the way. The industry - and those associated with it - should be supporting their customers, not expecting the customers to support them.

Just for balance, I should point out that I have just received my IQ180 back from Copenhagen via my local dealer. I bought my back off Ebay. For around $7.5K less than any dealer would sell me one at the time.

It was covered under the +1 year warranty that the previous owner had purchased. A warranty that transferred to me.

Having said that, how about a little less of the FUD sowing regarding buying backs from sources other than dealers? Right now one of your dealer friends (your words, not mine) is asking something like $28k for an IQ160 with 10,000 shots on it, whilst in the same rough timescale, perfectly respectable end users are struggling to sell their IQ180's (still under warranty) on specialist forums for around $22k.

Re. the debate about dealers, it seems there are a some effective and honest people eg. Steve and Doug, who provide really useful backoffice services for pros, and they are known here by word of mouth, and then there are some unpleasant characters who live of their entitlement to geographical areas, and who sometimes make use of good business skills or good connections to land institutional contracts with museums etc. Last, not least there are places like B&H who sell MF eg. Hasselblad with competence, just like they sell Nikon and Canon with competence, but without providing any specific services at all. But all of the above get the same margins, and I don't see why they should.

Going back to this . I never said this was a verifiable number either for all I know it could be more marketing spin. If I could verify that would be nice but without getting real numbers from each company which is next to impossible and you know that than in many ways its a best guess answer. I really dislike your tone here as its pretty insulting which I do not deserve either since when do I spill lies and deceit in these forums. I'm a working Pro father of 2 a husband run 2 businesses and have a wife with breast, lung and brain cancer in the last 3 years do you really think I give a shit about these stupid debates and worse having to read a bunch of BS from trolls. Do you really think I care. I do not but I do care deeply about this industry that has supported my art for the last 35 years plus and I will support it the best way I can because I do care what is written in these forums and the deceit runs wild. I would spend half my life trying to correct this crap. I don't have the time for stupid debates and was this not all marketing spin from Leica to start this thread to begin with. Go verify Leicas numbers for us if it matters to you.

BTW Steve is a dear friend and he is a very knowledgable guy and on top of that one of the best around and this has zero to do with what he says. Want to make that perfectly clear.

You've got the support thing all upside down by the way. The industry - and those associated with it - should be supporting their customers, not expecting the customers to support them.

Just for balance, I should point out that I have just received my IQ180 back from Copenhagen via my local dealer. I bought my back off Ebay. For around $7.5K less than any dealer would sell me one at the time.

It was covered under the +1 year warranty that the previous owner had purchased. A warranty that transferred to me.

Having said that, how about a little less of the FUD sowing regarding buying backs from sources other than dealers? Right now one of your dealer friends (your words, not mine) is asking something like $28k for an IQ160 with 10,000 shots on it, whilst in the same rough timescale, perfectly respectable end users are struggling to sell their IQ180's (still under warranty) on specialist forums for around $22k.

I did say I don't care where people buy there stuff your money not mine but I also said I support the dealer network . It's been good for me both in purchasing and support even on a Friday evening late in Miami I got support to help fix a body issue. To me that kind of support deserves my support is when these guys come to the plate and bat for you. I won't back off those comments about dealers because I believe in what they do regardless of price. When you neck is on the line sometimes the money is very secondary. Now we are also talking about a different country here which may have a lot to do with huge price differences as well. That maybe the case and I can only speak for here in the US. Buying from friends and forum members I never said was a bad way to go since most of the time a warranty is involved and a certain level of comfort with these folks is a good thing. Nothing wrong with that and for a lot of hobbyists it certainly is a nice option but on a loaner level support level for a working Pro having these things readily available to you maybe just more important. Depends on needs and also your comfort level. A back for instance being built like a tank is maybe pretty safe a body on the other hand is less safe buying used. We all know bodies will go down easier and faster since many parts both electrical and mechanical are involved. Seriously I know money is very important to all of us both as Pros and non Pros but in some ways its a secondary issue as well. These things are expensive and I know we all look to save. Myself I'm more comfortable with a dealer. My Nikon for instance I know I'm largely on my own for service and support and that maybe fine for a 3k camera. But for me with big money on the line my comfort level is having a dealer. That's my comfort level may not be yours or anyone else's .