The Clackamas Town Center shooting was stopped by an armed civilian. He however didn't shoot the gunman, the criminal fled after seeing the armed citizen. Joseph Zamudio an armed citizen helped subdue the murderer in the Tucson shooting in which Representative Giffords was injured.

Not a single house burned down when an extinguisher was used to put out a small kitchen fire. That follows the same logic. If an armed citizen stops a criminal before we have a mass shooting then we don't have a mass shooting. Thousands of times each month lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

I know Salon was the first online publication with a paywall. Do they still have it. I'm surprised they still exist. I thought it was about women's hair for the longest time.

I was armed when someone asked me for directions. I was friendly and gave him excellent directions. Little did I know that had I did things a little differently -that guy would have gone on a shooting rampage.

feckingmorons:Not a single house burned down when an extinguisher was used to put out a small kitchen fire. That follows the same logic.

That's not "logic". That's "retarded grasping". Fire starts in a house. Person sprays it with fire extinguisher. Problem solved. The analogous situation would be person starts shooting the place up, Heroic Armed Republican Citizen then shoots maniac, problem solved. There seems to be a lack of cases of the latter happening.

feckingmorons:If an armed citizen stops a criminal before we have a mass shooting then we don't have a mass shooting.

Oh boy. Yes, please keep going in that direction. Double down.

feckingmorons:Thousands of times each month lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.

feckingmorons:He didn't shoot anyone. He was armed, when he wrestled with others for the weapon used to shoot everyone. You might want to read the headline.

Yes, you are literally correct, given the particular phrasing of the headline: he was an armed civilian who was partially involved in subduing the shooter. Of course, given that the gun in his pocket had no role whatsoever in what transpired, his being armed was utterly meaningless. His being armed had as much relevance as his gender, race, or sexual orientation: none.

b2theory:I_C_Weener: The information is that guns are used defensively a lot more than they are used to kill. No idea if showing a gun stopped a mass shooting. Go prove some other negatives Salon.

Is it true that guns are used defensively more often than to commit homicide?

/not trolling

The most conservstive estimates are around 100,000 - 200,000 uses per year. The NRA number is more like 1 million. What constitutes defensive gun use is determined differently in the various studies. Stuff like showed a holstered gun or yelling that you have a gun counts in some studies but not in others. But the studies are almost all from around the era of the Assault Weapons ban.

But nearly every week there is some story of a robbery or home invasion being stopped or partially stopped by defensive gun use.

Cagey B:That's not "logic". That's "retarded grasping". Fire starts in a house. Person sprays it with fire extinguisher. Problem solved. The analogous situation would be person starts shooting the place up, Heroic Armed Republican Citizen then shoots maniac, problem solved. There seems to be a lack of cases of the latter happening.

Here you go then, if we can assume all small kitchen fires burn a house down we can also assume that all people who shoot other people will become mass murderers by shooting many people during one crime spree. Here are a few thousand cases of an armed citizen stopping an armed criminal before they could graduate to mass murderer.

I carry a gun because I can. I also carry it because it annoys people who want to deny me that right.

Cagey B:feckingmorons: If an armed citizen stops a criminal before we have a mass shooting then we don't have a mass shooting.Oh boy. Yes, please keep going in that direction. Double down.

If you stop a wildfire with a hose it also won't burn up a subdivision.

Cagey B:feckingmorons: Thousands of times each month lawfully armed citizens protect themselves and their families with firearms.[citation needed]

The citations are linked above.

You may also be interested in an interview with Dr. Gary Kleck [FSU department of Criminal Justice] in which he notes private guns stop crimes 2,500,000 times a year in the US.

Even Hemenway's attempt to discredit Kleck's study shows that there are hundreds of thousands of civilian uses of firearms to prevent crime every year, even if we accept every possible statistical error that could be made. Hemenway is an economist not a criminologist.

I've provided both sides of the coin and they both support my assertion. If you want more I can provide them, but I'm not doing your homework for you.

Because People in power are Stupid:I was armed when someone asked me for directions. I was friendly and gave him excellent directions. Little did I know that had I did things a little differently -that guy would have gone on a shooting rampage.

I have almost never been armed when out in public. The lives I could have saved have left me with no will to live. Thank goodness I have a gun.

kronicfeld:feckingmorons: He didn't shoot anyone. He was armed, when he wrestled with others for the weapon used to shoot everyone. You might want to read the headline.

Yes, you are literally correct, given the particular phrasing of the headline: he was an armed civilian who was partially involved in subduing the shooter. Of course, given that the gun in his pocket had no role whatsoever in what transpired, his being armed was utterly meaningless. His being armed had as much relevance as his gender, race, or sexual orientation: none.

He was leaving the grocery and ran towards the gunfire. He felt equipped to help someone being robbed, or assaulted or shot because he was on a level playing field. If he just had a carton of eggs and a pack of smokes he probably wouldn't have done that. While he may sound like an internet tough guy in his interview, we can't deny that he ran from the safety of the store to where people were being shot. He put himself in harm's way. Would you do that?

Yes, I am literally correct. My facts are correct, my assertion is valid and supported by evidence. Is there some better way to be correct?

Chariset:The fantasy -- that if YOU had been there with your heroic gun, you would have shot the killer and saved everyone -- is for the moment still a fantasy.

If I were there with my gun I would have herded people to shelter unless there was absolutely no other recourse but to shoot the criminal. I'm not keen on shooting people.

I am not the police. I don't have an obligation to help others (frankly the police don't have an obligation to help you either [Warren v. District of Columbia]). I would certainly hope I would, I sure think I would, however I carry a gun to protect myself an my family. Not to protect the world from lunatics who are intent on murdering people.

If the police and the marines can't protect people from crazed murderers I'm not going to be a lot of help to anyone else.

10 minutes for the police to arrive and three hours to render the criminal incapable of killing anyone else. I'll keep my gun for those 10 minutes while we're waiting for the cops. I don't depend on the government for my safety, you can if you want to. We see how well that worked.

NickelP:Can you make us a case that any mass shooting was made worse by an armed civilian?

I'm pretty sure you can find quite a few cases of people's weapons being used against them and inflicting even more carnage. Not saying that's a case against self defense, but you're making a pretty stupid statement.

2wolves:Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence. Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.

I don't carry a gun in Ireland because there is little gun crime there. I would venture that a similar percentage of Irish people own guns as in the US, the vast majority of them are shotguns. The same percentage of the population are armed, but Ireland doesn't have a culture of violence like we do in the US. Ireland has a culture that respects life. In Ireland there were 54 murders (not just gun related) in 2012. In Chicago there were that many gun crimes last month.

When the criminals stop murdering people in the US, I'll stop carrying a gun. Until then, the next time someone shoots at me I want to be able to shoot back.

NickelP:Damn near every shooting in recent memory has been stopped by someone armed. Can you make us a case that any mass shooting was made worse by an armed civilian? And don't say the shooter dumbass

Don't know about a civilian, but it looks like the Navy Yard shooter used at least one (and maybe two) guns that he took after shooting armed guards at the start of his rampage.

NewportBarGuy:NickelP: Can you make us a case that any mass shooting was made worse by an armed civilian?

I'm pretty sure you can find quite a few cases of people's weapons being used against them and inflicting even more carnage. Not saying that's a case against self defense, but you're making a pretty stupid statement.

Not that this whole debate hasn't be reduced to absurdity already.

It's like watching crippled kids fight.

That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

wtf mods. If I tossed this into the tfd queue id prob get it deleted. Way to troll.

The Clackamas Town Center shooting was stopped by an armed civilian. He however didn't shoot the gunman, the criminal fled after seeing the armed citizen. Joseph Zamudio an armed citizen helped subdue the murderer in the Tucson shooting in which Representative Giffords was injured.

Those are the first two I could think of off the top of my head.

There was also the loony religion of peace guy that started shooting up the Israeli airline (El Al ?) ticket booth at LAX. He got a few shots off and was immediately blasted dead by private security.

NickelP:That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

I'd totally agree with that. I'm pro CCW and pro-gun, to the point of mandating all sales go through an FFL. Period. No exceptions. For a CCW you need to have a clean mental health record and clear NCIC.

Anyone who is legally allowed to own and carry should have that right. I'm fine with that.

But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.

feckingmorons:2wolves: Folks, U.S. citizens love their guns and love violence. Until the culture changes you're pissing into the wind.

I don't carry a gun in Ireland because there is little gun crime there. I would venture that a similar percentage of Irish people own guns as in the US, the vast majority of them are shotguns. The same percentage of the population are armed, but Ireland doesn't have a culture of violence like we do in the US. Ireland has a culture that respects life. In Ireland there were 54 murders (not just gun related) in 2012. In Chicago there were that many gun crimes last month.

When the criminals stop murdering people in the US, I'll stop carrying a gun. Until then, the next time someone shoots at me I want to be able to shoot back.

NewportBarGuy:NickelP: That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

I'd totally agree with that. I'm pro CCW and pro-gun, to the point of mandating all sales go through an FFL. Period. No exceptions. For a CCW you need to have a clean mental health record and clear NCIC.

Anyone who is legally allowed to own and carry should have that right. I'm fine with that.

But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.

We went to the f*cking moon. I think we can figure something out.

I'm not against that. You can probably legitly blame the pro gun folks, but at the moment most mental health budgets are getting decimated. If you can't treat folks who need help I don't see how we are going to fund them to keep guns from them.

Define the terms to win the argument. Exclude anything that busts the general idea because it's outside the definition.

b2theory:Is it true that guns are used defensively more often than to commit homicide?

/not trolling

The purpose of a defensive gun use is to stop a crime. Not kill someone. A lot of statistics try and prove guns aren't used defensively by citing the lack of homicides by defensive gun uses. But yes, the estimation puts defensive gun uses higher than homicides.

NewportBarGuy:NickelP: That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

I'd totally agree with that. I'm pro CCW and pro-gun, to the point of mandating all sales go through an FFL. Period. No exceptions. For a CCW you need to have a clean mental health record and clear NCIC.

Anyone who is legally allowed to own and carry should have that right. I'm fine with that.

But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.

We went to the f*cking moon. I think we can figure something out.

OH MY GOD!!1! GUN GRABBER!! WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION DOES IT SAY I HAVE TO WAIT!! I HAVE A RIGHT TO ANY FIREARM NOW NOW NOW!!!

As long as DC is afraid of a lobbying group that takes that position, we're screwed.

NewportBarGuy:NickelP: That's a risk one takes. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but its pretty much theirs to take.

I'd totally agree with that. I'm pro CCW and pro-gun, to the point of mandating all sales go through an FFL. Period. No exceptions. For a CCW you need to have a clean mental health record and clear NCIC.

Anyone who is legally allowed to own and carry should have that right. I'm fine with that.

But, we have a glitch in the Matrix and we have to fix it. Mental Health records specifically. We have got to figure out a way to flag those purchases and prevent the sale. Call it a 7-10 day hold. Don't disclose any information to the seller, just tell them that the sale is denied pending review.

We went to the f*cking moon. I think we can figure something out.

Also not that I think any of that is a bad idea, because I ddon't, but would it of prevented any mass shooting you can think of?