Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:59 pm

I reject the cynical notion that “[t]echnically” the N-Prize was “lost” with the expiration of the original deadline. The founding spirit of the competition is to abandon that kind of rigor mentis. The N-Prize was created by one man, our mostly harmless leader and Chief Optimist, Dr. Paul Dear. He Who Is Not A Rocket Scientist alone has the authority to say when the N-Prize has been lost or won and he alone defines the terms of the competition as he sees fit. Who knows what manner of “sidewaysness” goes on in the mind of His Aethereal Laterality®?

Without a deadline or a winner, the Sikorsky prize has been a source of inspiration and education for generations of students of engineering and aerodynamics. Finally, after 33 years, a Canadian team is claiming victory and has submitted data to the American Helicopter Society for verification. What purpose would a deadline have served for the competition?

Which reminds me, Paul, have you noticed the numerals of the year 2016 add up to nine? Coincidence? I don’t think so! Please, sir, more…time!

Everyday I make progress Team Prometheus is all I do and with the help of the other team mates we make progress as we can afford.

I do take the time to help other teams when I can. Right now I'm assisting the DIY Rocket contest at the space university and several near space projects.

I'm not a programmer but I continue work on the Ardurocket project using the Ardupilot as a basis for guidance. As this project progresses I expect it will reach a workable solution.

I have designed a new engine and we need the 5-axis CNC Machine to make parts for it. That's why the work is being done to progress that part of the project.

I have made claims in the past hoping to gain support and perhaps a bit too optimistic in those hopes. BUT all the claims I have made are doable! I just never got the support or funding we needed to prove it.

It's a time or money question for Team Prometheus only. So far it's only lack of funding. Time that's happening every day so we are moving forward one way or the other.

Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:26 pm

SA Rocket Guy, Lots of people out there claiming how 'easy' it is to get into orbit let alone space. Don't need any small prize to get into orbit because if you are able to get something in space or orbit, the money will come.

In Sugar Shot, our goals are lofty but realistic...getting a rocket into space, not orbit, powered by sugar. No easy thing as only Ky Michaelson has done it as an 'amateur' using an APCP motor. Our progress is not hampered by funding but by research, development and testing a low Isp propellant that no one would consider using for space access. We are now testing sugar grains that are, to my knowledge, far larger than anyone has done to date.

We have another balloon launch on the 7th followed by another motor test and some rocket flights after that.But a balloon gets you only so far, the rocket is what gets you to space. An interested software engineer did some sims for us that shows we could get a cansat sized payload into orbit with sugar but it would take five stages. Not practical for anything other than to say we did it (we are not even going to try that).

If and when we get our sugar rocket working for reliable sub-orbital flights, I did a crude study showing we could fly a cansat size payload to 100km for $3,500 US. That would be for university groups wishing to do sub-orbital things.

I am also part of another group that was in the NASA Centennial Challenge that has made considerable progress with a test expected at the end of this year or next and then launching from Kwajalein.

SpaceShipOne took the $10 million dollar Ansari X Prize but with a development cost of $20-25 million dollars one can hardly say the prize paid for it; that will come with SpaceShipTwo. Same with the Google Lunar X prize. The second Carmack prize amounted to $5,000 (plus another five by others) for 'simply' getting to 100,000' and only one team made it successfully with the requirements. That is a long way from putting something in orbit for the $2,000 N-Prize that will pay for very little.

When the 100,000' Carmack prize was offered, I knew it would be won by either a group that had a current project that fit the requirements or a team with previous experience...for someone with neither it is simple wishful thinking.

If your plan is to go into space, you don't need a prize to get you there but it's nice to be rewarded when you do.

Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:33 am

Not sure if that was a typo. The N-Prizes (there are at least two) are about $20,000 each. The non-recoverable flight budget limit is approximately $2000.

I think the most compelling aspect of the competition is that either by sheer luck or devilish design (yes, I am talking to you, Paul) the financial and technological challenges are so tantalizingly close to the edge of possibility and the prizes are just large enough to make this madness seem perfectly reasonable.

Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:28 am

BALLS is a joke pissing contest, nothing useful there. Wasting money on launching a small rocket from the ground is equally wasteful unless your testing for a space shot.

Teaching children to fly model rockets and aerodynamics involved has merit.

All that's been done over and over BIG DEAL.

Go for broke or don't go at all.

Launching solids is child's play and you know it. Just a simple assembly of your average AP solid takes experience? No not really. Stop making a bigger deal out of it than it is. Build it stay back a good safe distance and let er rip.

Might as well blow money out your butt-

The Sugar Shot is different and worthy but I'd say 98% of the solid launches are a waste.

If your going to launch a big solid do a big low altitude flight for a decent view of the entire flight where everyone can enjoy the show. Like the Saturn 5 Steve Eves did.

The CSXT shot that attempted space was worthy but there is no real proof they made space it really comes down to a guess.

Move up to liquids if you want to do ground launches at least they can make space with a long burn.

Don't scare the kids off from a solid rocket it's just a big whoosh and that's it. Big boy's playing with toys- Not much REAL science.

It's just the truth say whatever you like.

Not much difference between a C6-5 and a big solid that's a fact.

Watching model rockets fly might be fun for you but the rest of the world wants to just get some work done. Go launch another rocket woo woo big deal. Get some work done with one?

You can say it's for science but to me it's been done over and over and over. Have I personally launched a big "Q" motor yet? No- But I have assembled and worked on enough big rockets to know exactly what to do. Why would I waste my money flying a big nothing rocket? I wont just to prove I can- I know for a fact I can. What you think is irrelevant to me.

And I have a big "Q" I can fly if I wanted to prove something. I don't feel the need.

I'd have flown the "Q" to win the Carmack prize but it would most likely not have won. (it's a big dumb booster) If I could have gotten the 2 Stage N similar to that Jim Jarvis built and lifted it to 100kft and made a space shot and collected the prize I would have done that.

I've got a balloon that could do it too. But no not that time- I will use that balloon and I will make a space shot. Or I wont fly at all!

Just because you have launched a bunch of solids doesn't mean another guy can't come along and make one flight a space shot. IMO experience may even be a hindrance considering the state of the art amateur solids fail often in one way or another. Why? Mostly because people go for more performance than they need that's why! And really what performance does a solid offer? It's not worth it just fly a good solid rocket the performance gain is not worth it.

Will the N-Prize even be attempted NOT by a US team I can assure you of that. No one has clearance and there's no time to get it either. IT's over for the US. Truthfully nobody can attempt it because there's not enough time to do the UN certification either.

The real work was done by me I know everything needed legally to launch and all the right places and forms to fill out. That alone took 3 years to be assured I knew I could even begin to really attempt it.

What's with all that rocket jock stuff- unnecessary. Just a poke a guy's that have the guts to say I will do it!

I have my own launch site- I know the regulations I know the hard part I know about insurances and taxes and every other detail that has to be done legally. I can deal with the government and the UN.

I've done all the hard work- I'll get my shot at it before I'm done. I'm not a guy that will quit. You can count on that. I don't need your ok as an experienced rocketeer. I am one and one day when everything is right and all the t's a crossed and the I's dotted.

Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:33 pm

I agree with Monroe (Hello, from the other SA, San Antonio!) about bigger and bigger hobby rockets. Entertaining? Maybe, but nothing really new scientifically. Ridiculously expensive? Definitely, but the enthusiasts seem happy to spend their money that way.

On the other hand, the Sugar Shot to Space program is real science really pushing the limits of what a solid fuel can do, but my interest is in a workhorse of a rocket for routine low-cost access to low Earth orbit for science and profit.

There are thousands of potential customers just waiting for a reliable spaceflight service that is truly affordable (I suspect our own Dr. Dear is one of them). For that, liquid fuels are the only way to go. Even with satellites as small as the N-Prize requires, real science can be done with routine orbital and suborbital flights of very small low-cost rockets.

Whether the competition has been won by 2014 does not really matter. The constraints of the N-prize rules have already inspired real innovation in the science and technology of spaceflight. Considering what has been accomplished so far, routine affordable launches of very small “workhorse” rockets are just a matter of time (and money and sweat).

Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:32 pm

Monroe wrote:

BALLS is a joke pissing contest, nothing useful there. Wasting money on launching a small rocket from the ground is equally wasteful unless your testing for a space shot....Not much difference between a C6-5 and a big solid that's a fact....And I have a big "Q" I can fly if I wanted to prove something. I don't feel the need.

I'd have flown the "Q" to win the Carmack prize but it would most likely not have won. (it's a big dumb booster) If I could have gotten the 2 Stage N similar to that Jim Jarvis built and lifted it to 100kft and made a space shot and collected the prize I would have done that.

I've got a balloon that could do it too. But no not that time- I will use that balloon and I will make a space shot. Or I wont fly at all!...What's with all that rocket jock stuff- unnecessary. Just a poke a guy's that have the guts to say I will do it! ...I have my own launch site- I know the regulations I know the hard part I know about insurances and taxes and every other detail that has to be done legally. I can deal with the government and the UN.

Monroe,

There's quite a few gems in your last post. Who were you directing your comments to? I didn't see anyone say that solids were the only way to go. I don't understand why you felt the need to insult people who enjoy launching large solid fuel rockets.

Obviously, liquid fuel rockets are superior to solids for achieving orbit. You get higher ISPs and a longer burn. Liquid fuel rocketry is a proven technology that's been around since Robert Goddard developed it.

The problem with the N-Prize is that the cost restrictions are too tight, and the payout too low. The Carmack prize was $10,000 for just achieving 100,000 feet. Reaching space is an order of magnitude harder than that, and achieving orbit is another order of magnitude harder. So the N-Prize payout should be a million dollars, and not just $20,000. Paul Dear guaranteed that he would never have to make the N-Prize payout by setting the cost requirement so low.

Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:59 pm

DaveHein wrote:

The problem with the N-Prize is that the cost restrictions are too tight, and the payout too low. The Carmack prize was $10,000 for just achieving 100,000 feet. Reaching space is an order of magnitude harder than that, and achieving orbit is another order of magnitude harder. So the N-Prize payout should be a million dollars, and not just $20,000. Paul Dear guaranteed that he would never have to make the N-Prize payout by setting the cost requirement so low.

Dave

Having meet and talked to Dr Paul Dear its my opinion that he is a genuine space enthusiast and would have liked to see the prize won and it was set on the borderline of what is just about possible with the idea to encourage new ideas. The rules have been simple and generous the tight cost restrictions are basically the material and fuel costs of what leaves the ground and don't include labour and ground support. And if you do a reusable version its just fuel and satellite costs.

_________________Someone has to tilt at windmills.So that we know what to do when the real giants come!!!!

Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:54 pm

Remember, this whole thing started as idle musings in a Halfbakery discussion. “Maxwell Buchanan,” a molecular biologist who revealed himself to be Dr. Paul Dear, stepped up and turned nothing more than an intriguing conversation into a full-blown international spaceflight competition. You’ve heard of “Put up or shut up.” That is his money he is putting up for the prizes, yours for the taking if you think you can.

I have no doubt the Chief Optimist is chiefly optimistic and remains genuinely hopeful he will have to pay out at least one prize to someone. Keep in mind the official Carmack prize was only $5000. The other $5000 (or so) came from several very kind and generous enthusiasts of vertical rocket flight. Maybe some kind and generous enthusiasts of “sideways” (orbital) rocket flight will read this and match Paul’s offer.

The most difficult hurdle in the N-Prize competition is neither the budget limits nor the technological challenges. The greatest obstacle to success is the deadline. The time and effort needed just to get clearance is horrendous, without even considering the development of the launch vehicle itself. If this was not anticipated at the inception of the N-Prize, no one should be surprised. Who knew? The regulations in the United States now governing these flights did not even exist when the N-Prize was created. That is how “cutting edge” this competition is and that is what makes the challenge so interesting.

Last edited by USJay on Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:44 am

What Dr. Paul Dear did changed my life in a big way. The N-Prize could not be anything but good. I knew it was difficult nearly impossible! But it served it's purpose quite well.

It's not over and you can still join Team Prometheus if you've got the gut's to do it. Because my friend you need lot's of gut's and hard work to really do an orbit.

I'm very proud of WikiSat that young team! That's what makes the N-Prize priceless! The fire in the eye's will go on for a lifetime.

The best team going right now is Copenhagen Sub-Orbital these are rocket men! If you won't help me help them!

You don't have to be smart or rich to get to space and beyond you just have to be willing to do the work to get there. If you keep your eye on the objective the obstacles will give way.

You will have to make sacrifices to pioneer anything!

Stop launching small rockets from the ground. Carry them to 100kft and launch them from there! Stop wasting your money! A small rocket balloon launched can go so much further! Tell the world we want to go into space and go get it!

When men get together like Copenhagen Sub Orbitals and do the work. We will get there. You just do it! That's how you get there! One step at a time you FIND OUT how to do it.

Live your life to go there! What else do you live for? Make it yours! You can do it if it really matters to you.

If your ready to go to space I have some stuff and a place for you. Yes, you have to put up with me as captain. If that's not good enough for you start your own team!

Honestly if your insulted by me making fun of your hobby. I've already made my point. It's a hobby! Getting to orbit is no hobby my friend it takes dedication 5 orders of magnitude higher than a space shot and amateurs can't even do that yet.

Until everyday people join together and work toward a GOAL it will remain the domain of the mystic and eccentric. It's not that big a deal! It's just like any other job. Space travel is old news it's all been done! Hell all the hard work figuring it out is done. All that's left in NEW SPACE is to do the work!

In closing I'll add the means are here all you have to do is pick up the tool box and get busy. There is NO NEED TO BREAK NEW GROUND! These Team's doing space- Are not inventing anything that's not already been done. Engineers have a need to IMPROVE I understand that but it's unnecessary. The work is already done on the level we need to get there.

Follow the path already laid out.

Van Allen found the cheapest way into space in the 50's the rockoon. Stop wasting money on solids from the ground it's insane.

If you want to go to space your self use a balloon and go to 100kft and check it out. Use modern technology to improve that experience. You get all the view you could want! It's safer and cheaper. Use hydrogen and get over it. The balloons them self's will become much cheaper to manufacture if you do.

It you want the cheapest way to orbit it's an air launched solid rocket. A small rocket launched from a fighter jet like a Mig 29. A successful business launching cubesats from a MIG 29 could be very profitable and it IS the cheapest mission to orbit scenario for a business.

From here you jump to liquid rocket engines and orders of magnitude in money. That's beyond and plans I've had to date.

The N-Prize caused other scenarios like rockoons to orbit but these are not potential business scenarios IMO.

Going to space is a business. Get busy!

This is just my opinion of course. But I own it! You can believe that. If I'm wrong who cares! Should be only me- as I don't have any say what you do. I don't claim to know any more than anyone I'm certainly not the smartest or sharpest. I don't need to be- and neither do you. If you want to go to space. Do it!

Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:50 am

I have to make one more post. I have not had the time to post all the progress our team over 5 years has done.

Lots of people have come and gone over time. Some have stayed.

What we have done:

Made all the legal preparations to do an orbital launch. Including our own launch site-

Matagorda Peninsula has a private air field magazines and a place to build a pad with access to the inter coastal canal and a private dock large enough for barges and necessary equipment.

We rebuilt 2 yachts large enough to support launches at sea or do recovery missions.

We rebuilt several vehicles for launch services including a heavy work truck with a lift and several smaller trucks.

We have two ground control stations converted RV's and support for electric power generation.

The main ground control station has multiple displays that cover telemetry and live video from all the cameras. We have many cameras for coverage and we even have remote cameras for pad operations.

We have acquired several 100ft antennas and a launch rail for pad services.

We have a ground tracking dish and antenna array for multiple frequencies.

We now have an optical ground tracking station that doubles as another tracking antenna array.

We have several volunteer private pilots willing to run search and recovery missions some capable of long range into the gulf.

We have the capability to obtain video as far as 70 miles in high quality and we are working to determine how much farther that range is.

We have dropped small aircraft from high altitude autonomously and recovered them testing new guidance systems and remote control necessary for future rocket missions. Continually extending the range of our telemetry and ground control systems.

We work on the hard to do things first we have worked on location, legalities, guidance, tracking. Things that don't get much attention or consideration. The really hard part not the easy part (the rocket) The infrastructure is what Team Prometheus is built on.

It's not glamorous it's hard to find help and I personally have had to do most of the work. Everybody wants to work on the rockets nobody really wants to do the most important work.

I'm the one spending the money too and making the big sacrifices. I live to do this and it's what I do. And if our team succeeds it will be because I built the infrastructure first! I planned for the entire project from beginning to end and not just the end result.

We are indeed far ahead of any other attempt.

I've left out a huge amount of the effort this is just right off the top of my head.

Nobody wants to look at what has been actually done by Team Prometheus they only care about the rocket. What we have done in 5 years with what we have I am very proud of.

When it does become time to launch we will be ready.

This is why we will succeed.

You can buy a rocket cheap if you have all the other stuff. It's the other stuff you need you cant get in a hurry.

I am poor at dispersing information I don't have the time for it.

It's no joke to me as you can see.

You think myself and who I can get help from for every day in 5 years haven't made much progress? You can't be more mistaken.

Re: Will the prize be won by the end of 2014? Posted on: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:50 am

OK, so back to the subject of this thread, are any of the teams going to try to win the N-Prize? There's less than 3 months left. Three people voted yes to the question "Will the prize be won by the end of 2014?". I'm curious about the reasoning behind the yes votes since none of the teams have demonstrated that they could even launch a rocket to 100,000 feet.

These were/are/and will be solid motors actually getting us to space not to mention all the liquids rockets using solid boosters to help them make orbitlike the Space Shuttle and an already proven aircraft delivery system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_Sciences_Corporation that uses solid rockets to reach orbit.

It will be interesting to see just how big a useful payload could be sent into orbit from a rocket (solid?) dangling from a balloon. "Stop wasting your money!"