Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

I only feel sorry for you, I believe God is real no matter what, I think we remind you that if we are right, you've got problems Otherwise why do you and others get there hackles up.

Fixed your post.

You know, Pascal's Wager is the absolute crappiest most basic ignorant argument there is and it has been refuted many times.. You and your make-believe skydaddy don't threaten atheists no matter how much you try.

Why do I get my hackles up? Because you are trying to threaten me with eternal damnation. You worship the idea that an omnigod will send me, my wife and my child to hell for no other reason than not believing he exists. Regardless of our actions, lifestyles and personal morals.

You come here and try to threaten me with hell and you don't expect me to get pissed off?

How do you feel when a Muslim threatens you with hell for not believing in Allah and Mohammad? Do you like being told you are an infidel and deserve to die and be punished for eternity?

I would imagine you don't. Well neither do we and that is exactly what you are promoting here.

Unfortunately the staff can't do that. However, tothesea is now in the 'Edit Restricted' membergroup and can no longer edit or delete his posts until we return that privilege to him.

Eleven.

I'm sorry I missed this somehow. I was unclear...meant for Tothesea to put it back.

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Does your church consider it blasphemy or heresy that you believe your deity is not all knowing?

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I forgot to log off last night and I can't find your thread I guess that is what you call it. This is a little confusing. What were they. Am I required to click quote or is there another way to get to the post reply screen. Believe me I will answer, but some time we need a little time.

The above bolded (and quoted) is the only question I've asked you that I am interested in having you answer.

With the rest I was referring to the debunking of your claims by Raymond. Do you undestand the criticisms, and why your assertions are considered baseless and devoid of critical thinking?

I do not go to church, I got frustrated with them years ago, I have a relationship not religion and God is all knowing. This is all a waste of time, it just goes back and forth, You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, and it just goes nowhere. No more.On second thought after looking at replies to any remarks made by A Christian throughout this forum, and with the separate rules.I do not want any part of this. No matter what I say or any believer says, you would not listen or agree, not even minutely. What is the point? I can see just how much Christianity , and with others, even the Christian is hated. I am sorry for that .I am sorry for you, but it is your choice. You think if you call God a monster that he would prove any thing to you. He has proved many things to me, I have seen his work and I would not bother wasting my time telling most of you here. You made up your minds and most just demean and bully some one who does not believe like you. I've seen it across the board here. I asked for a little initial respect, and I am told to fuck off. Every one deserves initial respect, we have to earn the right to keep it though, that told me what kind of mentality I can expect to find here. I would have given every one here the courtesy of respect. As far as I am concerned there are a lot of plain angry people here and they want to vent at some one it won't be me. You think you will get rid of us and our faith some day? You are delusional, better people have tried in the last 2000 yrs. Accept the fact that God is here to stay and we will stand up for what we think is right and just in this world. Get used to being angry then.I was asked to name one loving thing God has done for anyone. Obviously you must know that answer, He gave his son to die for us. I would not do that for you and neither would you. What was the point of the question? most here don't believe in God so why ask, see how that works? I am sure that whoever asked just wanted to try to make me feel foolish, Naw, not me. My skin is pretty thick, I just do not want any part of some of you, I think some you could use a little God influence. Let some else prove God exists, you wouldn't listen anyway. Look up the word faith. I know you don't care if I stay or go, but I expected more of a civilized atmosphere, I don't know what I was thinking. Most of you are lost causes and you are going to lose the most important thing you could lose and to me that is a waste. Keep trying to get rid of God, but be careful he just might prove his existence to you ahead of his schedule. Emilly I will f----n dare to pray for her. What is she going to do, she was the first one I heard from, she turned out to be a liar. That is what I do, I will pray for all of you, I don't know you but God does. Keep your hackles up and stay defensive, we are not going away, and when we do we will be with the Lord and I hope some minds get changed over time, it will be a sad and terrifying time for many whether you believe it or not. Do not be to sad to see me go I will keep you in my prayers, enjoy this life, you might miss out on the next one. I see I have more questions, Screw it, I won't give any one the satisfaction. I will see you on judgment day. Nan

I asked for a little initial respect, and I am told to f**k off. Every one deserves initial respect, we have to earn the right to keep it though, that told me what kind of mentality I can expect to find here.

Sure, blame the monkey. Way to mischaracterize what was said. I said if you don't follow the rules to fck off. You said you wouldn't respond rules or not, if you were not respected.... "If you want me to answer, give me respect or I will ignore you..." You had to be told by a moderator to read the FAQ and learn how to quote. You came in preaching which is against the rules and you threatened strangers with Hell. All signs of disrespect to the forum, it's owners and the members.

Bye-Bye Then!

« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 08:23:42 PM by monkeymind »

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

tothesea,Can you please go back to this post and attribute names to those you're replying to. Moderator_020 has already spoken to you about using the quoting function in this post.After that, I'd like an answer to this post from me.

Eleven, I don't want to insult your learning so I will acknowledge you probably already know this:

ANTI = Greek for above, up fromNOMOS = Greek for law.

Antinomianism is the belief that the rules don't apply to you. It crops up in all religions. It could be that your task is too critical. It could be that you are holier than us. It could be that you are in a state of elation which you consider to be enlightenment.

I suspect that ToTheSea is such.

Be of good cheer, Eleven, I think ToTheSea is merciful and will gladly forgive you.

You forfeited that respect when you presented your views as The Truth rather than as your beliefs. I can respect someone who says "I believe..." but I cannot and will not respect someone who uses their beliefs to bully others into compliance.

You lost My respect the instant you played the Hell card.

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You think you will get rid of us and our faith some day?

Actually, yes. I think the death of Christianity is inevitable, albeit it may take thousands or even billions of years. If the human race dies, Christianity and all other human beliefs die with it. Your own faith, ibelieveinGod, will automatically end at the moment of your death.

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I was asked to name one loving thing God has done for anyone. Obviously you must know that answer, He gave his son to die for us.

Asking Me to accept the sacrifice of another being in order to avoid eternal punishment? That is not an act of love. It is the bloody and vicious act of a bully-god. Not only is it abusive and morally reprehensible; it puts believers and nonbelievers alike into a morally untenable situation. I should not have to accept something which I perceive to be wrong in order to avoid being tortured.

The sacrifice of Jesus is not love. It is the ultimate evidence of the immorality of Biblegod, and I believe that people who would willingly play along with that sick game are not to be trusted.

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Most of you are lost causes and you are going to lose the most important thing you could lose and to me that is a waste.

No, you won't. As I said earlier, I've already cancelled Judgment Day, and when you die you almost certainly will not regain consciousness in some eternal WooWooLand. Your body will eventually disintegrate, and your "eternal life" will probably consist of being recycled into other material entities. Get used to the idea, because the odds are I'm the one who got it right.

I was asked to name one loving thing God has done for anyone. Obviously you must know that answer, He gave his son to die for us. I would not do that for you and neither would you. What was the point of the question?

No, I was not alive when this so-called 'jesus' fellow was nailed to a plank of wood, it has nothing to do with me. Please give me an example of where your god is 'all loving'. Thanks.

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Your 'god' is supposed to be 'omnipotent', but even that property is not required: All your 'god' would literally have to do is decide not to send people to hell. Heck, it takes far less effort than 'judging' and 'condemning' and all that other bullshit that feckless religious idiots say their god does.

A 'god' could certainly decide to stop damning people to hell WITHOUT torturing anyone to death, whether or not they're his baby or just a prophet, or just a fictional character compiled from past demigod myths.

O.K. so yahweh creates most people specifically to go straight to hell. Why is that? Why don't the people get a say in that?

Islamic belief is that some creatures were created for destruction and it is good that Allah has done this because and all Allah does is right. Mohammed has a scene of the aftermath of the last judgement with the angels hustling the last demons into Hell for eternal damnation. Some of them bitterly protest the unfairness, that Allah had known what would happen all along and they were only doing their jobs. Allah responds that his will is transcendent.

There's a gospel song, "Farther along we'll know all about it/ Farther along we'll understand why..." to which Mohammed added more or less, "... or not."

Emilly I will f----n dare to pray for her. What is she going to do, she was the first one I heard from, she turned out to be a liar.

In what way did I lie? Where did I lie? You know something, I got accused by ToTheSea for "lying" when I said I used to be a Christian and teach bible study. Now you are calling me a liar. It's probably my skeptical side talking but based on this accusation of me I am wondering something.... Could you be ToTheSea? Tothesea jumps ship to the sea and you climb on board two hours later. You joined his testimony thread to comment on, and just like him you are preaching to us. Similar habits between the two of you.

You can pray for me if you want to but I seriously don't think it is going to do you any good. My dad has been praying for me since I was 17 and nothing has changed. What make you think your god will choose to answer your prayers for me.

Grow up, dude. That's all I can tell you. Monkeymind only told you to fuck off if you wish to not follow the rules, he wasn't telling you to fuck off directly.

It's not our fault you got so offended. The post where RaymondKHessel called you a nutbar is pretty damn long. I just copied it into my office program and it's 1538 characters long. The ONLY thing you commented on was him calling you a nutbar. There is a lot more to his post then that. You could've easily ignored that part of the comment and focused on the meat of what was said. You didn't - now that's rude.

Sorry but the members of this forum are interested in a discussion. We don't want to be preached to.

I can tell you what is a waste. A waste would be worshiping this being in the sky and praying to his son, both of which there is no evidence for. Your religion is just like all the other religions that have ever existed. There is this feel good story about paradise for following the main figures and there is this horrible story about eternal damnation for sinning against the main figures. What makes you so sure that Christianity, and your version of Christianity, is true. You only have a very, very, VERY, slightly better chance than we do of escaping hell but it's a very good possibility that if there is a hell you and I will be doing shots of whiskey together kicking back on a beach near a lake of fire for all eternity, with the rest of the members of WWGHA.

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"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

When ibelieveinGod is asked to give an example of god's unconditional love he talked about sacrificing Jesus for the world. Not convincing and surely not impressing.

He was asked many things but he avoided answers and then he said that we all are going back and forth with arguments and that is leading us nowhere, all this is a waste of time, we hate him and christianity (I guess we are the angry mob, the ancestor of those who crucified) and all other sort of things.

Why all this is repeating? This really seems like a waste of time. Christians come here to preach, we start asking questions and then we are the ones who are bad, angry at the world and pissed off? Well get bent fellow christian!

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The bible is like our celebrity world: Beautiful from outside, but rotten from inside.---me---

When you confront bible and logic, it is not logic that fails.---me---

No matter what I say or any believer says, you would not listen or agree, not even minutely. What is the point? I can see just how much Christianity , and with others, even the Christian is hated.

Do you know why? Because the majority of them - and you are a shining example of it - come on here and say "this is what I believe....no, I will not/cannot prove it....and you lot are all going to hell for being stupid." Can you wonder why you get no respect for acting like that?

IBIG, if I said to YOU: "I believe in fairies because the Queen of the Fairies appeared and spoke to me. I can't prove it to you, you all must believe. If you don't she will torture you forever", what would you say? Would you immediately accept I was telling the truth about my experience?

Most of you are lost causes and you are going to lose the most important thing you could lose and to me that is a waste. Keep trying to get rid of God, but be careful he just might prove his existence to you ahead of his schedule. .....it will be a sad and terrifying time for many whether you believe it or not. .....enjoy this life, you might miss out on the next one.

And there we go - the threats and threats and threats. "Believe what I say, or boy wil you be in trouble." Even if you weren't refusing to offer any evidence.....even if your evidence was as rock solid as this computer I type on, I would not be responding to threats. But sadly threats and intimidation and fear are what all Christians end up resorting to - this from a religion that professes LOVE as its primary tenet.

It would be funny if it were not so sad that every single Christian that comes here signs off with hatred and threats. Makes me wonder how strong their faith really is if they will so readily cast it aside to score a few cheap shots.

I do not go to church, I got frustrated with them years ago, I have a relationship not religion and God is all knowing.

Brilliant! Since you, unlike most Christians, actually have a relationship with your god rather than being limited to reading a book about him, you're sure to win lots of converts here. Next time you have God over for a chat, ask him what the Dow averages will be at the closing bell for the first week of November, then post them here before October 31st. Or ask him what star system the next Earthlike planet will be found in, and when it will be discovered. Or you could ask him for the most elegant possible equation for modeling the folding of proteins. Whatever. Having a relationship with an omniscient person would inevitably have tremendous benefits, even better than having Superman for a roommate. As long as you don't try to play poker with him, of course.

This is all a waste of time, it just goes back and forth, You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, and it just goes nowhere. No more.On second thought after looking at replies to any remarks made by A Christian throughout this forum, and with the separate rules.I do not want any part of this. No matter what I say or any believer says, you would not listen or agree, not even minutely. What is the point?

Oh, waaaaaaaaah, waaaaaaaah, waaaaaaaaaah. Wherever do you get the idea that you're entitled to have us believe whatever you say? You're like some guy who hates women because they don't give him sex on demand.

You think you will get rid of us and our faith some day? You are delusional, better people have tried in the last 2000 yrs. Accept the fact that God is here to stay and we will stand up for what we think is right and just in this world.

I was asked to name one loving thing God has done for anyone. Obviously you must know that answer, He gave his son to die for us.

Astreja already hit that one out of the park. To set up a system by which one must be willing to profit from the torture and murder of an innocent person, while symbolically (literally if you're Catholic) engaging in the cannabalistic rite of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the victim, in order to be "saved" from a torture-threat issued by the one setting up the system, is not any sense an act of love or morality or justice or goodness. Rather, it is the exact opposite.

You think if you call God a monster that he would prove any thing to you.

I don't expect a god to prove anything to me because I don't believe he exists. You are claiming he exists. Without proof, we don't believe you. Simple.

Sure, I think the character you are portraying is a monster. Just like I believe the character of Hannibal Lecter is a monster. Doesn't mean I'm expecting Hannibal Lecter to prove his existence to me though. I know he is fictional... same as your god.

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I asked for a little initial respect, and I am told to fuck off. Every one deserves initial respect, we have to earn the right to keep it though, that told me what kind of mentality I can expect to find here. I would have given every one here the courtesy of respect.

Don't expect someone to respect you when you are threatening them with eternal punishment. You would react the same way if someone threatened you.

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You think you will get rid of us and our faith some day? You are delusional, better people have tried in the last 2000 yrs.

You know, the vast majority of christians today hold beliefs that have little to do with what they were 2000 years ago... 1000 years ago or 500 years ago. You don't go around stoning women, leading crusades or torturing people for having the "wrong" beliefs like in the inquisition anymore. You don't own slaves anymore. The vast majority of christians don't even believe that Adam and Eve were real. They reject the creation myth and accept the Big Bang theory, Abiogenesis and Evolution.

What you call "christianity" today is a watered down version regurgitated and redefined over time in an attempt to keep up with humanity's progress. Original "christianity" died centuries ago... what you call christianity now is something else. I give it no more than 200 years before all those who identify as "christians" are practically "deists" and reject every last myth from their "holy books".

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I was asked to name one loving thing God has done for anyone. Obviously you must know that answer, He gave his son to die for us. I would not do that for you and neither would you.

Listen to yourself. Your beliefs make no sense. This is what you believe:

God sacrificed himself to himself as a loophole to bend his own rules. After 3 days he revived himself and joined himself in heaven to rule for eternity. I fail to see any sacrifice. What I see is a lame myth where an omnigod performs an unnecessary bind-torture-kill when he could have just changed the rules and forgiven humanity directly. It's just bad story telling when you look at it for what it is.

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Keep your hackles up and stay defensive, we are not going away, and when we do we will be with the Lord and I hope some minds get changed over time, it will be a sad and terrifying time for many whether you believe it or not. Do not be to sad to see me go I will keep you in my prayers, enjoy this life, you might miss out on the next one. I see I have more questions, Screw it, I won't give any one the satisfaction. I will see you on judgment day. Nan

You're basically telling me that if I don't believe/behave the boogeyman will get me.

C'mon dude. You are lucky to have had the opportunity to be alive for an infinitesimally small period of time within the vast scale of the cosmos and you're pissing it away by worshipping the boogeyman.

I will take the one scrap of good advice I can get our of everything you've said... I will enjoy this life. That's all I have and that's all I'm ever going to get.

Yeah, I got over it after re-reading the thread starting with his first post. They are starting to all look the same to me. Originally, I got him confused with the other guy Tothesia, or I wouldn't have used the f-word. I'd been a little more gentle and said buzz off!

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Their parthian jabs from the waaaaaambulance always reveal, verbally, the most ignorant of their belief behaviours, and initiate the most passionate deconstruction of those remarks by their critical thinking ex-fellow members.

God gave his only begotten son a bad long weekend for our sins. Jesus was a wimp--he never would have survived what his own teenaged mother went through giving birth to him. I've had dental appointments worse than what Jesus suffered, kiddo. Try again.

Their parthian jabs from the waaaaaambulance always reveal, verbally, the most ignorant of their belief behaviours, and initiate the most passionate deconstruction of those remarks by their critical thinking ex-fellow members.

Do not be to sad to see me go I will keep you in my prayers, enjoy this life, you might miss out on the next one. I see I have more questions, Screw it, I won't give any one the satisfaction. I will see you on judgment day. Nan

I'm not at all sad to see you go. I do have a couple of questions, and I suspect you'll be reading them as a "guest" or attempt to create a sock.

What do you expect from keeping us in your prayers? I've had likely thousands of Christians claim to be praying for me and not too suprisingly, nothing in my life has changed that they would have like to have caused. No forced conversion on the road to Tarsus, no harm to me or that which is important to me, nothing. Why is it that you *all* fail? Does your god not care about your petty little foot stomping? Does he like me just as I am? Or does he simply not exist?

I do like to see wannabe bullies run away when people stand up to them, leaving threats in their cowardly wake. I'm not too concerned to see you on judgement day or any other. How long has it been since your "savior" claimed that the generation he was supposedly speaking to would see this "second coming"? How many GoodChristianstm have claimed to know the end times were imminent? And they've all fail pathetically. The Great Disappointment was a good one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment

What happens when you are on your deathbed and nothing has happened?

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Yeah. If airplanes were created, logically they must have had one inventor. The Wright Brothers. Oops. But so what? You're avoiding the point. Why would the substitutions I made not be equally valid if stated by someone who had "direct experience" of Allah, Brahman, or Osiris, which would then "prove" that their One True God is the One True God as well as your revelation "proves" that yours is? Because there are people out there who say with equal conviction that they have had a Revelation of the Divinetm which turns out to be different from yours.

That isn't the point. Your reading comprehension is at a low here. If, there is only one God, then all of the different faces of God we see on this planet as merely facets of that one Creator, who has chosen to manifest Himself in various ways to various people. All experiences of God could be technically valid; whether they are divinely inspired or not is the true question.

Except that you didn't have to "seek God" or be "sincere" or anything like everybody else. The god you describe could, if it existed, do for everyone else what it did for you. It didn't, and according to the other things you've said, it won't. Out of 7 billion people currently living on Earth, you are the Chosen One. So, why you? Did your god hold a lottery or something?

Again, your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. If you had bothered to read my post instead of just respond off the cuff, or if you had the intelligence to comprehend all of it at the same time, you would clearly see that I mentioned more than once that God gives visions to unbelievers all the time. There is nothing particularly unique or special about that.

Mind-reading skills: you don't have them. What evidence do you have that I am insular in my views? I mean, apart from the fact that I'm not insular in your views? Project much?

How about the fact that your mind apparently passes over in a gray fugue of incomprehension things clearly stated and defined previously making any forward progress unlikely. I mean so far this post has been cheap insults and repetitions and illiteracy.

Whaddaya mean "both?" When it comes to the issue of religion/spiritual belief, there are thousands of sides. I am the one that's been arguing for considering the various "sides" (i.e., differing claims of Divine Revelation and mystical experience) equally. You want us to privilege yours and yours alone with credulous, evidence-free acceptance. You want us to "sincerely" seek your god and yours alone. You cannot explain why we should not seek the Goddess of the Wiccans (and each one of the other deities people have believed in) with equal sincerity.

Since you like going over things a million times, we can go over it again. It is a very simple issue. Either the Universe was created or it wasn't. Either there is One God or there are no Gods. Either there is a Creator who creates nihilistic ungrateful intellectually challenged children, or there isn't. How does something come from nothing? You're lost in the morass of human beliefs systems and are unable to delineate what the true issues are.

Yes, and most of the abundant testimony from all those faiths and practices contradicts yours. A lot of it says that Allah alone is God, he has no Son, and Allah is his prophet. A lot of it says that Brahman manifests in myriad forms (Krishna, Parvati, Shiva, Kali, etc., etc.). A lot of it backs up the teachings of the Buddha, and goes on to talk about Bardo realms and Bodhisattvas, etc., etc.. Then there are the revelations of the shamans, going back tens of thousands of years to the caves at Lascaux at least, telling of an alternate realm populated with therianthropic nature-spirits. I could go on. BTW, thus far I have demonstrated more knowledge of the various "sides" and the abundant testimony from people all over the world from different faiths and practices than you have. Likewise for my fellow commentators here. And you want to call us biased and insular in our beliefs?

Yes, you'e right about one thing, you *could* go on. Again, reading comprehension please. I will repeat. There is One Creator. Use any name you like. He prefers Father.

Nope. Just a pattern of behavior consistent with the attributes claimed for it. So, if the Creator is said to be both loving and omnipotent (especially if the "loving" attribute is supposed to be perfect and unconditional), then we should expect to see omnipotence being wielded in a loving way. If I were to claim that Superman was my roommate, that claim would have effects if it were true. There would be news footage of Superman saving people, shrugging off bullets when criminals shot at him, etc., because "Superman" has, in addition to his powers, the attribute of wanting to use them to save people. In the same way, an omnipotent, omnipresent Deity with a pattern of behavior guided by some principle (unconditional love, a thirst for domination, enjoyment of humans as tasty snacks, whatever) would be too big and important to miss. We would not find ourselves in a Cosmos that looks and behaves exactly the way it would if such an entity did not exist. You tell us that your god is unconditionally loving, but you can't point to a pattern of behavior on his part that manifests this, because he doesn't exhibit any behavior at all.

God loves everyone, especially the lost sheep that turn away. Human testimony about God is not sufficient, especially for someone who is closed-minded and bitter against God, and thus under the Satanic influence. I told you exactly how to find out for yourself who God is. God proves Himself, no human intervention required. Since you are too afraid to face God, you are prone to many delusions about Him.

So which is it then? Either God must reveal itself to us (i.e., God is the active agent, as you allege in your own case), or we can "seek out God and find him" ourselves, thus we are the active agents and God's self-revelation is a triggered response. And, since "millions" of people every day find all sorts of different gods when they go a-seeking, we're back to the issue you have yet to respond to: why should we trust your inner revelation more than anyone else's?

Sigh. Reading comprehension please. I said you could find out for yourself. You don't have to take my word for it. God acts as He acts. For some, He may come to them. For others, they are drawn in. It's all according to the whims of the great magnet.

Tothesea, I hope that you will answer as to why you removed your OP and also, that you will put it back.

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.