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20120709 interview

Audio

Documenting Egypt’s 21st Century Revolution
Transcript of oral history interview conducted with
###### on July 9, 2012 for the
University on the Square: Documenting Egypt’s 21st Century Revolution project
Interviewer:
This is an oral history interview for the American University in Cairo’s University on the Square, documenting Egypt’s 21st Century Revolution project. The interviewee is ######, and the interviewer is ######. The date is July 9th 2012, and we are in the Adham Center Recording Studio. Please give your name and your connection with AUC [American University in Cairo] and where you’re from.
Interviewee:
Okay, my name is ######, I’m Egyptian. I graduated with a BA from AUC in 2005, and I’m currently completing my thesis for my Master’s Degree also at AUC.
Interviewer:
When and how did you first learn about the new demonstrations of January 25th 2011?
Interviewee:
Um—[sighs] I think online and through colleagues at work. I heard about the demonstrations—probably maybe the Saturday or the Sunday before, the 25th was a Tuesday. So I think it was the Saturday or Sunday before—right before they happened.
[00:01:00]
Interviewer:
Um—had you been involved in demonstrations of political or social organizing before that time?
Interviewee:
No, no, not regularly, I was interested. I minored in Political Science at AUC, I was always interested in politics, but I was never directly involved. I participated in one or two demonstrations when I was a student at university. One of the big ones, the Iraq demonstration in downtown but not in anything since then, no.
Interviewer:
Can you tell about your involvement in the demonstrations of January and February including events you participated and or observed?
Interviewee:
Uh—
Interviewer:
You can approach it chronologically, or in any way that you could remember.
Interviewee:
Okay I wouldn’t say that I was very, very actively involved. I did not participate on the 25th. I remember that—I think it was the 26th; maybe, I was crossing through the city.
[00:02:06]
And it was sort of a—there was an eerie feeling to the city, I don’t know—I don’t know what it was. I mean I was running some errands and I went—I live um to the west—on the west side of the city, just outside of Cairo, it’s a suburb of Cairo um and I’m originally from Heliopolis, which is in on the east side of the city. So I was—I think I was going to visit my parents or something, and I remember I just crossed through the city, and it was very, very smooth, there was virtually no one, it was sort of weird. I—there is nothing special about the 27th that I can remember. I know that the demonstration—there still demonstrations going on, but there was nothing noticeable really. We—as I was just telling you on the—on the 27th, I was working for a media production company at the time.
[00:03:02]
And on the night of the 27th, we decided to make a short video, a sort of call to action, using a lot of the images also that came out on the 25th. And we shared the video and I think maybe like literally an hour after we shared the video, the internet went out, so it was sort of [laughs] lost [laughs]. The 28th was sort of interesting because my husband is a very non-political person, he’s not interested at all—he was not interested at all. We woke up on the 28th, and our phones were out, the internet was out, everything was out, we were completely offline, and I was like, “Is this not reason enough to go participate and do this and do that?” And we spent this whole time debating and he seemed that—I think it shook him on many levels that all of a sudden he was just disconnected.
[00:04:06]
And he’s—he has a job that requires him being on the phone all the time and online all the time, so it was sort of a very disorienting thing for everyone I think just because we’re so connected and don’t realize it until we’re [snaps finger] not. So we spent this whole time debating and we made a decision and we left. And on our way they announced curfew on the radio—we decided to switch on the radio to see what’s going on. Since really, that was really the only source of information besides TV which was—I don’t even remember what it was like the 28th I don’t—I don’t remember what was on TV. And on our way they announced curfew, so we sort of assumed that was true. Also we live far out, so for us getting back—one, we have no option not to—not to drive, because there’s not much in the way of public transport that can get you back out there.
[00:05:11]
And two, we weren’t sure what the situation was, so we turned—we turned, we went back home. The next few days were sort of it was interesting because I was sort of aware somehow that this is a scare campaign, and yet it worked [laughs] you know. I was always like a history buff sort of, so this word came to my mind very, very strongly that this is a scare campaign, yes and yet you are in that situation, and there is all of these events, and you really don’t know what to believe and what not to believe.
[00:06:00]
Also a lot of satellites lost their connections in the next couple of days, which meant that to some extent local networks were the only real source of news, because no one else was really reporting from the ground. And the panic that was inherent in that, I don’t think—I don’t remember—I remember not getting much sleep, I think for most of those eighteen days. I remember just being you know, once—obviously when there was no internet and television, you had to some extent, you had to learn people’s home phone numbers and call them, which was really weird, it was sort of like very 90’s [laughs]. But then also once the internet was back—being online—I think the first day that I participated was probably the 30th or the 31st.
[00:07:07]
And it was not like “I’m going to go and I’m like”—I was like okay, “I am either going to go see what’s going on, or I’m going to lose my mind [laughs]. Because I just don’t believe any of this shit anymore.” So we drove into the city, it was—it seemed very calm. We drove through Zamalek, bought some newspapers because we weren’t getting the newspapers either, for—starting the 28th. There was a—I remember there was a foreign woman standing on the streets, somewhere and she was wearing a short skirt, [laughs] and she was buying a newspaper. And some guy on a bicycle looked at her and he was like, “So all of this is going on and you’re wearing a short skirt, [laughs] what are you doing?” you know.
[00:08:01]
And it was sort of—it wasn’t offensive, it was jokingly, and it was actually sort of funny, that that was the case you know, there was this woman, who’s just sort of prancing and like walking around. We went to—we drove to Tahrir—it was calming. It was calming to be—I mean big—I think a big part of my personal frustration was being out of the city, because I already have so many reservations about not being connect to the city, because I’m—I’ve always lived smack—like very—in a very central location. So not feeling that I’m disconnected, that I can’t see anything when I look out the window. When I look out the window and I see a kid on his bicycle, okay this is not what’s going on, okay. [laughs] You know kids rollerblading up and down the street. No, this is—[laughs] this is too absurd for me.
[00:09:01]
So I think it was very calming, it was very —the environment, the atmosphere was also very calm somehow. Even though it was a demonstration, it was—there was something very, very positive about it. I’m sure—I’m sure you’ve heard this many times, but the fact that that, no you weren’t harassed, nobody spoke to you or looked at you, you know in a—in a way that was offensive. Sadly that’s gone now, but I mean that was—that was the case; I remember very vividly during that time. There was an opening up I think—
Interviewer:
This was in Tahrir, right now?
Interviewee:
Yeah.
Interviewer:
Okay.
Interviewee:
Yeah in Tahrir. I felt it was very open somehow.
[00:10:01]
Because—I mean in Egypt we live in this sort of very closed social circles. So the fact that all of these people were together in the same space, and sort of interacting—forced to interact, was I think healthy —it broke a lot of my own stereotypes —thinking that you know, because we’ve always had the ‘Muslim Brotherhood,’ sort of nobody knows who they are, where they are, what they do, what they look like and putting a face to all of these unknown—unknowns, I think was somehow healthy. It was also sort of interesting the way it was divided the Square itself. So you had—you knew who was where. It was you know the ex-AUC corner [laughs], the artsy fartsy crowd, the downtown artsy crowd, there is the Muslim Brotherhood corner, there was the Salafi corner, there was—so it was interesting somehow to see this—even within the space where people co-exist, but they have their sort of spaces within them.
[00:11:11]
Um—it was also very carnivalesque. And as, not as—I think it slowly got darker, I mean over—since Jan [January] to like—I remember in November, December. I remember how it was—it had—it was carnivalesque, but dark carnivalesque because there was also death, there was a lot of death going on like right next to the carnival. But this was just like truly carnivalesque—yeah I saw one, one lady there with her Chihuahua. She walked in with her Chihuahua, you know she’s all made up and the dog is like so—it was just so funny, it was so absurd. I was like [laughs]—um—but it was comforting.
[00:12:02]
It was much more comforting than not—not being there. Because not being there was just too disconnected, and it was too connected to a media that was very deluding um.
Interviewer:
Uh— how were the demonstrations structured and by whom, from what you observed?
Interviewee:
[sighs] At the time, the Jan-Feb [January-February] demonstrations?
Interviewer:
Before that you said you started on the 30th or the 31st, right?
Interviewee:
Uh-hm.
Interviewer:
Did you continue until Mubarak left?
Interviewee:
Yes, yes.
Interviewer:
Okay. So until then um yeah. Before and after if you would like to make a comparison, during and after the eighteen days.
Interviewee:
During and after the eighteen days. During the eighteen days, I didn’t feel they were organized. I felt like it was sort of a snowball effect.
Interviewer:
Mh-hm.
Interviewee:
So if the snowball head started rolling and it just kept rolling and rolling and rolling. So it didn’t feel like someone needed to necessarily organize anything.
[00:13:02]
Obviously there were groups that formed for like the committees that patrolled the different entrances to the square, especially after the 2nd of February—but even before then—the—obviously the—the—the Muslim Brothers played a big role in—especially in securing the Square. But I wouldn’t say that someone or that one particular group was responsible, maybe I’m not close enough. I mean I went there as a participant and observer, both. I think not being there on the 25th and the 28th—maybe did not make me as invested somehow? Maybe.
Interviewer:
Mh-hm.
Interviewee:
Not to say that I was not invested, but not as invested as other people, who I have seen sort of—very wholeheartedly invested in everything.
[00:14:08]
Um—so maybe I’m not close enough to say, but I—I don’t think any one particular party was responsible for organizing—once things got rolling, once things started happening. Before that, obviously there was the—I don’t—Khaled Said, the Facebook group was I think one part of it, but also a big part of it I think was word of mouth. I don’t know if it’s just because I think Facebook gets too much credit or [laughs], or because I really do think that the most effective way of communicating in—in Egypt is word of mouth, and I think that that was the way that most people heard about it and, and started to participate in it, because a lot of people who participated, were not politicized at all.
[00:15:08]
So even they would be sort of not necessarily as involved even in the Facebook group, so it was really just knowing all of these people who are participating, and accordingly feeling that there’s a comfort zone somehow, but also feeling that—it’s something that you know about, that—that just happens to be happening on the day off for everyone, so rumors—“Yeah, let’s do this. This is something that we want to participate.” Afterwards, I think it’s been—it’s been much more—it’s been very different I think, that the organization of the protests has been—it depends—it depends on which, on which protest—there were a few protests in May that were—it was a big one, I think end of May.
[00:16:06]
Um—some of them were organized by sort of the Liberal parties, and again partially communicated through social media, but also through word of mouth and also through partial—I mean by then it had become a normal thing, it had been normalized. Even during the eighteen days, it was sort of funny because the people were like, “Yeah, yeah I have a birthday party, and then I’m going to go to the Revolution,” as if the Revolution is a space, it’s just like—it was containing space and—um—but it had become normalized. So it was not like, “Oh my god, there’s a demonstration and that’s weird.” No, it’s, “There’s a demonstration, I’m going, it’s fine.” The Muslim Brotherhood, obviously, they organized a number of protesters, the Salafis organized a number of protests.
[00:17:00]
Um—there were a few big protests, organized by—I don’t remember who organized it but it was a Womans’ Protest. One of them was really nice; I went to one of them, the March after—
Interviewer:
This year or last year?
Interviewee:
[sighs]
Interviewer:
I heard there’s a really big difference between both.
Interviewee:
I think it was last year. It was after the girl got stripped down by the—
Interviewer:
The blue—yeah.
Interviewee:
Yes, the Blue Bra Incident unfortunately. But there was a— there was a big march then. It was actually quite nice and it felt safe. It felt uh—
Interviewer:
The women’s international march or for the—?
Interviewee:
No. It was after the—
Interviewer:
For this, okay.
Interviewee:
Yes, it was for this, yes. This was very—I think it was well organized. I don’t—I don’t even know who organized that. But I think it was well organized, and they marched through downtown, they realized that it wouldn’t be a good idea to go to a place that they couldn’t secure, so they came back to Tahrir and they circled the Tahrir a lot and—they went through downtown again, and then they came back.
[00:18:11]
I joined back later in Tahrir—so that was well organized but I don’t even know who organized it. But I think different groups have been organizing different—different protests—yeah.
Interviewer:
Did you have contacts with any of the prominent individuals involved in the events of January and February, like activists, journalists, politicians, anyone?
Interviewee:
Um—not directly, I don’t think—a few—a few friends obviously were active or are activists. But also my ex-boss, her father was a politician.
[00:19:00]
Or he wasn’t a politician, he was sort of a—he was a writer and he—he is a politician, because he had a political party. So it was interesting to see the dynamics, sort of behind the scenes uh—also we were working on a documentary at the time. There was an American filmmaker, who flew to Cairo, she wanted to make a documentary—we knew her. She’s Egyptian-American, so it was sort of interesting because we had to sort of do a lot of digging to get contacts for her. And some of the contacts were very politicized —or very active—political activists really. So it was—it was somehow interesting—I don’t think I realized how much more invested other people are than I am.
[00:20:01]
Or I think I realized it when I saw other people who were that much more invested, because they were camped out in the Square for eighteen days, we’re not moving, we’re not leaving, we can get arrested, and we come back, we’re going to do this, we’re going to do that. So I think it was interesting to also feel that I’m involved, but I’m not that involved. So.
Interviewer:
Can you give me a—can you give a description of the demonstrators that you encountered? Like different class, background, religion, age, gender, anyone, any particular description you would like to—?
Interviewee:
I think everything—everyone. Like I’ve seen so many different types—some people who were there sitting you know, with their iPads, doing this and that, and the lady with the Chihuahua and the people who maybe don’t have really—I don’t know if they cut their—classified as homeless people, but they really don’t have a home maybe.
[00:21:07]
Who were there there, existing in this space. People who were—motivated by economic or political demands, but—or economic demands more, I think. Um—everyone really.
Interviewer:
And what about the foreigners, children?
Interviewee:
Ah yeah, actually I saw a lot of children who were there with their parents.
Interviewer:
Mh-hm.
Interviewee:
Even on the day that Mubarak stepped down. I remember there were a lot of children there. I remember a group of girls, because the the filmmaker that was coming, was looking for women in the revolution, and I saw some of the, sort of, observations that I had were of women.
[00:22:02]
And I remember one day there was a group of girls who were obviously maybe high school students, and they were there with one of the girls’ moms. And they were all standing there with their signs, and they were very interesting—sort of to just see you know. I tried to imagine what it would have been like if I was in high school, and I don’t think my mom would have taken me to Tahrir [laughs], but it was interesting to see that. But also the crowd changed. I would say that there was a sort of a consistent—there was a certain energy that was there, and a certain code of conduct, that was somehow—I don’t, I don’t—I think it was unspoken—an unspoken code of conduct that everyone abided by which was really amazing.
[00:23:00]
Um—I won’t speak for the 28th because I wasn’t there, but since I—since I went, maybe the 30th through the 11th? No, through the, through the 5th or the 6th?
Interviewer:
Okay.
Interviewee:
And then the 5th or the 6th, the following week is the week that they said, everyone go back to work, enough of this nonsense [laughs], and we’ll deal with the guys in Tahrir. And that week, the—I think the demographics changed, because there were a lot—many more observers. I think that sort of that uh—
Interviewer:
Observers, not participants?
Interviewee:
Many more observers, yes.
Interviewer:
Okay.
Interviewee:
And I think that was the week when you started to feel that the harassments came back as well.
[00:24:02]
Because—I think by that point, the sort of the—one, curiosity got the better or best of people. Two—they had sort of—they hadn’t—I guess the media was not able to maintain the air of Tahrir’s ticking bomb. [laughs] Or it seemed less scary to people I think. So I think I saw a lot more people who were just there like couples, who would walk down you know, or sitting near Qasr El Nil Bridge, and go take a look and say ‘Ahhh’ you know make comments or whatever. So I think the demographics changed a lot during that week. But before that, really it was so, so—it was so diverse—kids and their parents and middle aged women.
[00:25:05]
Old men, old women –very poor, very wealthy, very bourgeois. I mean there were the women who were their Louis Vuitton bags. You know sort of very—and their sunglasses, their designer sunglasses and it was sort of I think weird. It was like, “What are you doing here, and why are you protesting? What are you protesting against anyway?” But it was interesting, sort of to see that— that whole dynamic and to see people seeing each other, more than anything else.
Interviewer:
How did they—how did they interact with each other, all these different types of people? Did they keep their distance, or would they talk with each other?
Interviewee:
I think everyone spoke—I think people did talk. I think obviously there was the—the—people gravitated towards people who are more like them. Or they called friends, hey I’m in Tahrir, where are you? [laughs]
[00:26:02]
Um—but also—no I feel like people—I think I saw a lot of people, yes interacting with people whom they would not normally interact with, or listening. Like really listening to and hearing people that they wouldn’t normally hear. I wouldn’t generalize though, but—but at least seeing the different parties, seeing the different social groups side by side and sort of co-existing and collecting the garbage together, and you know, doing whatever, collectively was interesting.
Interviewer:
Describe uh can you describe the presence of AUC faculty students, alumni and staff at the demonstrations and their roles? Is there anyone in particular you would like to mention?
[00:27:00]
Interviewee:
[pause] I know that a lot of AUC faculty who were heavily involved in the demonstrations—even via media. I know that ###### was heavily involved and he was very vocal as well, in the media. I was recently at their book signing for ######’s book as well. I know that she was heavily involved. I saw a lot of familiar faces, and I saw a lot of AUC alums. Some of them are very involved—some of them are activists, some of them are people I know, they are friends that are activists and I know that they are—they’ve been very heavily involved from the beginning. Some of them less so. I think—I think it was sort of—it’s sort of different for AUC, even for AUC alums, especially people who came from the old campus.
[00:28:11]
Not—um—because there’s an affiliation with that space. So I think that there is a comfort in that space that maybe other people from other universities or other whatever, don’t necessarily have because, navigating the space on foot for four years, will automatically make you feel that this is somehow my space too. So I can understand why AUC or AUC alumn or AUC staff were very sort of present um or they had sort of comfort, I think that maybe other people don’t have this much—but I think—yeah, I think—so I see even till today, I see a lot of AUC alums and faculty who are very, very, very invested then in the process, so.
[00:29:11]
Interviewer:
You’ve mentioned a couple of speeches but were there other speeches, chants, jokes, performances at the Tahrir Square, or anything that you found memorable?
Interviewee:
Um—
Interviewer:
Funny banners, chants, jokes?
Interviewee:
There were so many funny banners, I can’t even remember them. Jokes yes, there were jokes every single day. They were like fifteen jokes a day, every single day [snaps fingers] on your phone, you would get another joke about something new, or something different or whatever.
[00:30:00]
It was funny because it was sort of a very stressful situation—because we came from place of very sort of stillness you know, there’s nothing changing, there’s nothing happening, and we went to a very unstable sort of—frantic almost uh situation. So it was interesting to see the—how people actually dealt with that, and a lot of it was through humor. There must be something. I’m sure there is, at least one thing that was notable. I remember there was a puppeteer, there was a guy um a guy with marionettes, who was pretty cool, actually he had a marionette of Omar Suleiman, which was really cool. I might have a few photos of that—let me check. There was so much—there’s a lot of singing all the time—but I can't remember off the top of my head, no. Not any one thing that was memorable, I think it was everything.
[00:31:17]
Interviewer:
Okay. Do you have any other impressions about the physical location or setting of protests at Tahrir Square or elsewhere? Was there like a bridge or a monument or a particular street or a spot that was memorable for you, because of an incident or anything of that sort?
Interviewee:
This is in reference to the eighteen days or in general?
Interviewer:
Eighteen days or after.
Interviewee:
I’d say—Mohamed Mahmoud [Street] obviously.
[00:32:02]
And Qasr al-Nil Bridge, because I participated in the anniversary um—march that went down Qasr al-Nil Bridge that was sort of—literally not even sure they still go there [laughs]. But it was a very powerful moment, the anniversary that day because um—all of the chants were against the military council. And I—for me there was a separation between what happened in November—and Mohamed Mahmoud, because at the time I went and—
Interviewer:
You were present during the Mohamed Mahmoud?
Interviewee:
Yeah, I was present. I didn’t go down the street. I, I just—I didn’t, because at one point I felt—I think it was sort of weird.
[00:33:01]
It was—there was this—as I was saying, very carnivalesque sort of cotton candy, popcorn, candied apples in the square, there were sweet potatoes—and yet down—down Mohamed Mahmoud, even if you just stood at the end of the entrance—which was what I did, I stood at the entrance to the street, and it was just literally you’re engulfed in teargas. That’s very memorable to me, because obviously having spent my four years at AUC (American University in Cairo) downtown campus, and spent I think two and a half years also at the downtown campus while I was doing my Master’s, I somehow feel that the street—I think this—I feel like I have ownership over this street, more than I feel that I have ownership over the street in which I live. Probably because I’ve lived—I spent more time there.
[00:34:02]
So it was—it was weird—there was something un—very unsettling about this—one, the carnivalesque—the contrast between the very carnivalesque Square, and the street where people—I remember one day I was standing there, it was during these events, I standing there with a friend, and she’s standing and chatting blah, blah, blah and we were both very confused, and we don’t know, we don’t know what to do you know. And on like three, four different occasions, someone came up to me and said to me, “So where’s the fighting? Yeah, we’re going to the—we’re going to fight.” “What are you guys standing doing here?” “Oh, we’re going to the fight.” So there was also this feeling like people are literally going to sacrifice themselves almost, without knowing why. And the senselessness of it for me, was—unsettling. It was also, it also just happened—I was also there on the night where there was the gassing incident.
[00:35:05]
That sort of got [whistles] swept, under the rug and nobody really found out what—what happened with that but there was just—you know I teared up and I felt uncomfortable, and it was like maybe I’ve just been here for too long—
Interviewer:
Was this at the Square?
Interviewee:
Yeah—so I was like maybe I’ve just been here for too long, maybe I should just start leaving or whatever, and it—as I was walking out, I felt the smell was stronger, even though I was walking in the opposite direction of Mohamed Mahmoud, and the wind comes down Qasr al-Nil towards Mohamed Mahmoud and not the other way around, so it was sort of weird that I was still smelling this, and feeling itchy, and after I left everyone reported that—that the Square had somehow been gassed, and nobody really found out how or why or what happened. So that was—for me that was—that was a very unsettling moment.
[00:36:03]
To feel that I had some—I had just—some—someone had done something invisibly, you know, to eject me from the space that was very unsettling. And that’s a very memorable time for me, in that—the entrance to Mohamed Mahmoud, the Square—because I went from the Square to the entrance and down Qasr al-Nil again to go home, and that whole route for me was—I think that that incident. Afterwards—after Mohamed Mahmoud ended—and we’re walking down that street when it was just sad and dark and very heavy—and there was a lot of graffiti coming up at the time.
[00:37:03]
It was mostly the martyrs and the people who had lost their eyes, a lot of portraits of the people that lost their eyes, but it was very—and I think that was in December, and I was shooting another documentary at the time and I was there with the crew and they said you know we’re going to take a walk around, and at the time the Square was sort of ghost town, empty, garbage everywhere—fights would break up over nothing and sort of—and I remember I walked down the street um on one of those days, and it was just such a—I don’t know, I can’t even describe. Let’s just leave that.
Interviewer:
Okay, thank you very much.
Interviewee:
Oh no worries. [laughs]
Interviewer:
Okay. Can you describe the commercial and service activities that emerged at the demonstrations? Like food vendors, cleaning, medical services?
[00:38:03]
Interviewee:
[coughs] Everything and like, all sort of—
Interviewer:
Were they purely commercial or out of good will?
Interviewee:
There was a lot—there was a lot of goodwill. I mean the doctors were there for good—out of good will. A lot of people were passing out food—but a lot of it was just pure business. And there’s a brand of cigarettes I have never seen anywhere else, that looks like a Marlboro that is not a Marlboro, that is sold for like four pounds, five pounds that—
Interviewer:
What was it called?
Interviewee:
I don’t even remember [laughs]. It looks like a Marlboro though. There were phone cards. There were—I remember one day I was parked somewhere and someone was trying to sell me a flag, and he was like, “It’s the Revolution flag, it’s the Revolution flag.” And I was like, “No it’s not the revolution flag, it’s the Egyptian flag.” [laughs]
[00:39:01]
So food, drink—everything—t-shirts, all of a sudden you know Egyptian flags on t-shirts and slogans on t-shirts and—a lot of Egyptian pride sort of commercialized um—
Interviewer:
Can you tell us about the aspect of demonstrators camping or sleeping in Tahrir Square, just a description of them, how they were organized grouped if you—but you—did you spend a night at the Square?
Interviewee:
No, I spent—no, I went one day at—late at night—
Interviewer:
Right, okay. Yeah.
Interviewee:
And—uh but I don’t think I have enough insight. I know that they—
Interviewer:
From what you could—have a—from what you observed.
[00:40:00]
Interviewee:
I think people were sort of um—I don’t know how the groupings were. There certainly were some groupings—but it seemed to me that it was—people brought their tents and camped out. I even know of like a few of my friends who—I know one person who spent the whole eighteen days there. And then anytime there was a camp out, she went—she’s an activist, she’s very involved—but I also know a few people who would just take their tent one day, and go to Tahrir camp out and go home the next day. But I don’t know how it was organized in terms of like space. Um—it seemed very casual to me, and like one—one day I went very, very late, and was there to like 2:00 or 3:00 AM. And like oh people got up, changed into their pajamas, chilled for a bit and they went to bed and it was fine.
[00:41:05]
Interviewer:
Did you personally witness any violence or did you suffer any injuries or bodily harm or see it happen to others?
Interviewee:
I didn’t experience any bodily harm, besides harassment obviously which has increased on the day of—I think the first day for serious like sexual incidents to start emerging was the day that—was the 11th of February. And I went into the Square, I was—I was like on the bridge, I saw the Square from above and I went into the Square, right after it was announced, and I think it was—we were three, four girls. And we all got groped like the—all the way in [laughs].
[00:42:02]
So by the time we were leaving, I was like okay, I don’t think I want to necessarily be here [laughs] any more—Mohamed Mahmoud, obviously I know, I know people who were injured in that. And I saw a lot of people who came out sort of you know, with injuries and—and—and driven away on motorcycles. Um—those are the two—those are the—I think it was mainly that during Mohamed Mahmoud that I saw a lot of injuries.
Interviewer:
So what you witnessed or heard, did you expect this level of violence?
[00:42:48]
Interviewee:
[Pause] Um—I don’t—I don’t know how to answer that question. I didn’t expect or not expect anything I think. Mohamed Mahmoud, there was a street battle going on, so there—it was physical and there was people who went—it wasn’t even like you could be standing on—in the Square, with the exception of the gassing incident, it wasn’t even like you could be standing in the Square and something could happen to you. You could literally be standing in the Square and nothing would ever happen to you. But people who went into the street were—knew that they were going into a sort of a “war zone,” quote unquote, or like a battle zone. So I can’t say I didn’t—I expected or I didn’t expect anything. I—I don’t know how to answer the question.
Interviewer:
That’s fine. Besides the violence and the harassment, were you ever interrogate—interrogated or saw someone being interrogated?
[00:44:01]
Interviewee:
No.
Interviewer:
If you saw any property damage, how and when did it happen and who was involved?
Interviewee:
Like with my own eyes?
Interviewer:
Yeah.
Interviewee:
Uh—I don’t think I saw—
Interviewer:
Burning of cars, trashing of cars, buildings?
Interviewee:
No, I don’t think I saw anything. —no I don’t think I saw anything.
Interviewer:
What do you think were the most pivotal moments of the events of January and February?
Interviewee:
Um—the 28th. The cutting off of the communications—the 1st of February, Mubarak’s speech about, “I want to die in my homeland and blah, blah, blah to put a sort of—empathized somehow with him.
[00:45:03]
The morning of the 2nd or the afternoon of the 2nd, with the Battle of the Camels. They literally were opposite one another. Or they had the opposite effect and I don’t remember when it happened, but I remember that one night where Wael Ghoneim appeared on one of the talk shows, I don’t remember which night it was, uh but the next day it was scheduled for a Million Man March, and it was huge. Huge, it was like crazy—
Interviewer:
Were you available during the Million Man March?
Interviewee:
I think so, yes. The next day the—of the Wael Ghoneim speech, he didn’t—actually it wasn’t the speech. He appeared on the show, he told the story and he walked off the show for some reason.
[00:46:00]
Um—I think those are the main—also I think the night of the 10th, when everyone—there’s pivotal—okay, so the 28th obviously, the—the 1st, the speech on the night of the 1st, the Battle of the Camels, the Wael Ghoneim TV interview and the week of 11th, I remember it was like the 6th—the week of the 6th. The week of the 6th when they said go—go to work, everyone go to work, this is over, enough of this uh we’re losing money, the economy is going to—it has been trashed, and people decided not to go to work, and there were strikes and I think that was the key pivotal moment that broke everything.
[00:47:00]
That—that action during that week and then the night of the 10th when everyone expected him to step down and he didn’t, and everyone woke up the next day and went to the—well actually it wasn’t the next day, it was the night of the 10th, people started going to the presidential palace, and they camped out there and they went to Maspero, and they camped out there and on the 11th, I was standing on 6th of October Bridge, and I looked to the right, and I could see Tahrir and Qasr al-Nil Bridge, all the way down packed. And I looked to the left, and I could see Maspero all the way down packed, and that was like there way—there was no way of—there’s no way to think about—I think that was just like a realization that this many people are just not willing to accept what happened last night.
[00:48:00]
Interviewer:
From those events, was there anything that surprised you?
Interviewee:
Uh—surprised me in what way?
Interviewer:
That you found shocking or you did not expect it or—
Interviewee:
I didn’t expect—well I don’t think anyone expected anything, like at the time, like nobody could say that they expected the, the Battle of the Camels to happen. That was shocking and is still to this day shocking. Nobody would have ever imagined that this was something that could happen in broad daylight and in a public square literally. So that was obviously very shocking.
[00:49:00]
I was surprised somehow that people reacted very emotionally with uh to Wael Ghoneim’s interview. It was interesting to see that people really became involved somehow. Nothing else that I would say.
Interviewer:
Can you comment on how your perceptions and emotions changed over the eighteen days of the revolution, and in the weeks afterwards?
Interviewee:
It was very—it was a very emotional time obviously. There was like everything that you could possibly—the whole spectrum of emotions was there, coexisting at different times. There was fear, there was—as I was telling you, I live far out and because literally there was nothing, behind my house, this is a desert.
[00:50:00]
And I actually knew two people, who had incidents. In retrospect, I realize this because they had political or economic affiliations that were—that put them in that position, but I knew two people whose houses were torched who lived in the outskirts of the city, or lived in the suburbs. So that somehow was unsettling or it reinforced the fear in a much more real way than the media scare campaign. There was some joy. There was also some loss of fear I think. There was some pride or like—all of these were emotions that have like existed. There was a sense of affiliation.
[00:51:02]
There was anger. There was a lot of anger, I was very, very angry like a lot of the time. I think those are—after the eighteen days there’s also confusion and frustration and uncertainty. Uh—confidence and loss of confidence in one’s self and in the process I guess. And I think a lot of those emotions have continued, but the extreme, very powerful, moving emotions uh, the fear, the rage, the pride, the joy—the night of the 11th was a party, it was amazing.
[00:52:11]
We went to a restaurant and someone had a bottle of champagne, someone with us had a bottle of champagne and he walked around the whole restaurant, and he poured champagne for everyone in the restaurant, and there he toasted everyone in the restaurant. I mean there was—there was this joy, there was this extreme celebration and pride. Since then more and more the uncertainty—the uncertainty surfaces. The—it’s not fear but it’s more—I also feel I have to defend my position a lot of the time, because like for the presidential elections for instance, I—I made a choice to vote in a certain way that my family did not think was the right way.
[00:53:03]
It was very different than they voted, so um they had their sort of reservations, “Well how could you do that, why don’t you vote for this person?” Like I don’t think this is right, and I don’t believe in it and I don’t support it. But feeling that I have to be in the sort of the defensive position a lot of the time as well even though—even though I’m not that invested, but I hold these opinions, so I’m not an activist but I hold these opinions none the less, even then I feel like I have to support—I have to defend myself, probably even more than if I were an activist, in which case I would have my own support network, because that’s—that’s who I am. [pause] A lot of anger, a lot of rage, a lot of sadness also because there’s been a lot of death and a lot of unnecessary actions.
[00:54:00]
A lot of senseless violence I think, and I—I know that people—I mean I’ve had conversations where people sort of were critical of me using the word senseless, but I think that a lot of the time it was senseless. It was just they want a battle, they—they are going to provoke you into fighting, and it’s the wrong thing to do, because you’re never going to win [unintelligible] so—so yeah, I think—everything you can imagine. Like all of the emotions you can ever imagine that you never exist [laughs], happened at the same time, and then in varying degrees afterwards.
Interviewer:
Did you personally observe a diversity of opinion about the events of the revolution, from your friends, social circle, families?
Interviewee:
Yes.
Interviewer:
How different were they?
Interviewee:
Very different. Very, very different.
Interviewer:
So you guys were not on the same page?
Interviewee:
Uh yeah, no I’ve seen the whole—I think the whole spectrum.
[00:55:00]
I think everyone has this thing from, “Those kids need to get out of Tahrir,” to uh, “I’m in Tahrir uh and I’m—I’m living in Tahrir or I’m staying in Tahrir,” to uh, “What is this sort of wise thing to do and let’s sit down and talk strategy and talk blah blah blah.” I think the whole range is there.
[00:55:20]
[End of interview]

Documenting Egypt’s 21st Century Revolution
Transcript of oral history interview conducted with
###### on July 9, 2012 for the
University on the Square: Documenting Egypt’s 21st Century Revolution project
Interviewer:
This is an oral history interview for the American University in Cairo’s University on the Square, documenting Egypt’s 21st Century Revolution project. The interviewee is ######, and the interviewer is ######. The date is July 9th 2012, and we are in the Adham Center Recording Studio. Please give your name and your connection with AUC [American University in Cairo] and where you’re from.
Interviewee:
Okay, my name is ######, I’m Egyptian. I graduated with a BA from AUC in 2005, and I’m currently completing my thesis for my Master’s Degree also at AUC.
Interviewer:
When and how did you first learn about the new demonstrations of January 25th 2011?
Interviewee:
Um—[sighs] I think online and through colleagues at work. I heard about the demonstrations—probably maybe the Saturday or the Sunday before, the 25th was a Tuesday. So I think it was the Saturday or Sunday before—right before they happened.
[00:01:00]
Interviewer:
Um—had you been involved in demonstrations of political or social organizing before that time?
Interviewee:
No, no, not regularly, I was interested. I minored in Political Science at AUC, I was always interested in politics, but I was never directly involved. I participated in one or two demonstrations when I was a student at university. One of the big ones, the Iraq demonstration in downtown but not in anything since then, no.
Interviewer:
Can you tell about your involvement in the demonstrations of January and February including events you participated and or observed?
Interviewee:
Uh—
Interviewer:
You can approach it chronologically, or in any way that you could remember.
Interviewee:
Okay I wouldn’t say that I was very, very actively involved. I did not participate on the 25th. I remember that—I think it was the 26th; maybe, I was crossing through the city.
[00:02:06]
And it was sort of a—there was an eerie feeling to the city, I don’t know—I don’t know what it was. I mean I was running some errands and I went—I live um to the west—on the west side of the city, just outside of Cairo, it’s a suburb of Cairo um and I’m originally from Heliopolis, which is in on the east side of the city. So I was—I think I was going to visit my parents or something, and I remember I just crossed through the city, and it was very, very smooth, there was virtually no one, it was sort of weird. I—there is nothing special about the 27th that I can remember. I know that the demonstration—there still demonstrations going on, but there was nothing noticeable really. We—as I was just telling you on the—on the 27th, I was working for a media production company at the time.
[00:03:02]
And on the night of the 27th, we decided to make a short video, a sort of call to action, using a lot of the images also that came out on the 25th. And we shared the video and I think maybe like literally an hour after we shared the video, the internet went out, so it was sort of [laughs] lost [laughs]. The 28th was sort of interesting because my husband is a very non-political person, he’s not interested at all—he was not interested at all. We woke up on the 28th, and our phones were out, the internet was out, everything was out, we were completely offline, and I was like, “Is this not reason enough to go participate and do this and do that?” And we spent this whole time debating and he seemed that—I think it shook him on many levels that all of a sudden he was just disconnected.
[00:04:06]
And he’s—he has a job that requires him being on the phone all the time and online all the time, so it was sort of a very disorienting thing for everyone I think just because we’re so connected and don’t realize it until we’re [snaps finger] not. So we spent this whole time debating and we made a decision and we left. And on our way they announced curfew on the radio—we decided to switch on the radio to see what’s going on. Since really, that was really the only source of information besides TV which was—I don’t even remember what it was like the 28th I don’t—I don’t remember what was on TV. And on our way they announced curfew, so we sort of assumed that was true. Also we live far out, so for us getting back—one, we have no option not to—not to drive, because there’s not much in the way of public transport that can get you back out there.
[00:05:11]
And two, we weren’t sure what the situation was, so we turned—we turned, we went back home. The next few days were sort of it was interesting because I was sort of aware somehow that this is a scare campaign, and yet it worked [laughs] you know. I was always like a history buff sort of, so this word came to my mind very, very strongly that this is a scare campaign, yes and yet you are in that situation, and there is all of these events, and you really don’t know what to believe and what not to believe.
[00:06:00]
Also a lot of satellites lost their connections in the next couple of days, which meant that to some extent local networks were the only real source of news, because no one else was really reporting from the ground. And the panic that was inherent in that, I don’t think—I don’t remember—I remember not getting much sleep, I think for most of those eighteen days. I remember just being you know, once—obviously when there was no internet and television, you had to some extent, you had to learn people’s home phone numbers and call them, which was really weird, it was sort of like very 90’s [laughs]. But then also once the internet was back—being online—I think the first day that I participated was probably the 30th or the 31st.
[00:07:07]
And it was not like “I’m going to go and I’m like”—I was like okay, “I am either going to go see what’s going on, or I’m going to lose my mind [laughs]. Because I just don’t believe any of this shit anymore.” So we drove into the city, it was—it seemed very calm. We drove through Zamalek, bought some newspapers because we weren’t getting the newspapers either, for—starting the 28th. There was a—I remember there was a foreign woman standing on the streets, somewhere and she was wearing a short skirt, [laughs] and she was buying a newspaper. And some guy on a bicycle looked at her and he was like, “So all of this is going on and you’re wearing a short skirt, [laughs] what are you doing?” you know.
[00:08:01]
And it was sort of—it wasn’t offensive, it was jokingly, and it was actually sort of funny, that that was the case you know, there was this woman, who’s just sort of prancing and like walking around. We went to—we drove to Tahrir—it was calming. It was calming to be—I mean big—I think a big part of my personal frustration was being out of the city, because I already have so many reservations about not being connect to the city, because I’m—I’ve always lived smack—like very—in a very central location. So not feeling that I’m disconnected, that I can’t see anything when I look out the window. When I look out the window and I see a kid on his bicycle, okay this is not what’s going on, okay. [laughs] You know kids rollerblading up and down the street. No, this is—[laughs] this is too absurd for me.
[00:09:01]
So I think it was very calming, it was very —the environment, the atmosphere was also very calm somehow. Even though it was a demonstration, it was—there was something very, very positive about it. I’m sure—I’m sure you’ve heard this many times, but the fact that that, no you weren’t harassed, nobody spoke to you or looked at you, you know in a—in a way that was offensive. Sadly that’s gone now, but I mean that was—that was the case; I remember very vividly during that time. There was an opening up I think—
Interviewer:
This was in Tahrir, right now?
Interviewee:
Yeah.
Interviewer:
Okay.
Interviewee:
Yeah in Tahrir. I felt it was very open somehow.
[00:10:01]
Because—I mean in Egypt we live in this sort of very closed social circles. So the fact that all of these people were together in the same space, and sort of interacting—forced to interact, was I think healthy —it broke a lot of my own stereotypes —thinking that you know, because we’ve always had the ‘Muslim Brotherhood,’ sort of nobody knows who they are, where they are, what they do, what they look like and putting a face to all of these unknown—unknowns, I think was somehow healthy. It was also sort of interesting the way it was divided the Square itself. So you had—you knew who was where. It was you know the ex-AUC corner [laughs], the artsy fartsy crowd, the downtown artsy crowd, there is the Muslim Brotherhood corner, there was the Salafi corner, there was—so it was interesting somehow to see this—even within the space where people co-exist, but they have their sort of spaces within them.
[00:11:11]
Um—it was also very carnivalesque. And as, not as—I think it slowly got darker, I mean over—since Jan [January] to like—I remember in November, December. I remember how it was—it had—it was carnivalesque, but dark carnivalesque because there was also death, there was a lot of death going on like right next to the carnival. But this was just like truly carnivalesque—yeah I saw one, one lady there with her Chihuahua. She walked in with her Chihuahua, you know she’s all made up and the dog is like so—it was just so funny, it was so absurd. I was like [laughs]—um—but it was comforting.
[00:12:02]
It was much more comforting than not—not being there. Because not being there was just too disconnected, and it was too connected to a media that was very deluding um.
Interviewer:
Uh— how were the demonstrations structured and by whom, from what you observed?
Interviewee:
[sighs] At the time, the Jan-Feb [January-February] demonstrations?
Interviewer:
Before that you said you started on the 30th or the 31st, right?
Interviewee:
Uh-hm.
Interviewer:
Did you continue until Mubarak left?
Interviewee:
Yes, yes.
Interviewer:
Okay. So until then um yeah. Before and after if you would like to make a comparison, during and after the eighteen days.
Interviewee:
During and after the eighteen days. During the eighteen days, I didn’t feel they were organized. I felt like it was sort of a snowball effect.
Interviewer:
Mh-hm.
Interviewee:
So if the snowball head started rolling and it just kept rolling and rolling and rolling. So it didn’t feel like someone needed to necessarily organize anything.
[00:13:02]
Obviously there were groups that formed for like the committees that patrolled the different entrances to the square, especially after the 2nd of February—but even before then—the—obviously the—the—the Muslim Brothers played a big role in—especially in securing the Square. But I wouldn’t say that someone or that one particular group was responsible, maybe I’m not close enough. I mean I went there as a participant and observer, both. I think not being there on the 25th and the 28th—maybe did not make me as invested somehow? Maybe.
Interviewer:
Mh-hm.
Interviewee:
Not to say that I was not invested, but not as invested as other people, who I have seen sort of—very wholeheartedly invested in everything.
[00:14:08]
Um—so maybe I’m not close enough to say, but I—I don’t think any one particular party was responsible for organizing—once things got rolling, once things started happening. Before that, obviously there was the—I don’t—Khaled Said, the Facebook group was I think one part of it, but also a big part of it I think was word of mouth. I don’t know if it’s just because I think Facebook gets too much credit or [laughs], or because I really do think that the most effective way of communicating in—in Egypt is word of mouth, and I think that that was the way that most people heard about it and, and started to participate in it, because a lot of people who participated, were not politicized at all.
[00:15:08]
So even they would be sort of not necessarily as involved even in the Facebook group, so it was really just knowing all of these people who are participating, and accordingly feeling that there’s a comfort zone somehow, but also feeling that—it’s something that you know about, that—that just happens to be happening on the day off for everyone, so rumors—“Yeah, let’s do this. This is something that we want to participate.” Afterwards, I think it’s been—it’s been much more—it’s been very different I think, that the organization of the protests has been—it depends—it depends on which, on which protest—there were a few protests in May that were—it was a big one, I think end of May.
[00:16:06]
Um—some of them were organized by sort of the Liberal parties, and again partially communicated through social media, but also through word of mouth and also through partial—I mean by then it had become a normal thing, it had been normalized. Even during the eighteen days, it was sort of funny because the people were like, “Yeah, yeah I have a birthday party, and then I’m going to go to the Revolution,” as if the Revolution is a space, it’s just like—it was containing space and—um—but it had become normalized. So it was not like, “Oh my god, there’s a demonstration and that’s weird.” No, it’s, “There’s a demonstration, I’m going, it’s fine.” The Muslim Brotherhood, obviously, they organized a number of protesters, the Salafis organized a number of protests.
[00:17:00]
Um—there were a few big protests, organized by—I don’t remember who organized it but it was a Womans’ Protest. One of them was really nice; I went to one of them, the March after—
Interviewer:
This year or last year?
Interviewee:
[sighs]
Interviewer:
I heard there’s a really big difference between both.
Interviewee:
I think it was last year. It was after the girl got stripped down by the—
Interviewer:
The blue—yeah.
Interviewee:
Yes, the Blue Bra Incident unfortunately. But there was a— there was a big march then. It was actually quite nice and it felt safe. It felt uh—
Interviewer:
The women’s international march or for the—?
Interviewee:
No. It was after the—
Interviewer:
For this, okay.
Interviewee:
Yes, it was for this, yes. This was very—I think it was well organized. I don’t—I don’t even know who organized that. But I think it was well organized, and they marched through downtown, they realized that it wouldn’t be a good idea to go to a place that they couldn’t secure, so they came back to Tahrir and they circled the Tahrir a lot and—they went through downtown again, and then they came back.
[00:18:11]
I joined back later in Tahrir—so that was well organized but I don’t even know who organized it. But I think different groups have been organizing different—different protests—yeah.
Interviewer:
Did you have contacts with any of the prominent individuals involved in the events of January and February, like activists, journalists, politicians, anyone?
Interviewee:
Um—not directly, I don’t think—a few—a few friends obviously were active or are activists. But also my ex-boss, her father was a politician.
[00:19:00]
Or he wasn’t a politician, he was sort of a—he was a writer and he—he is a politician, because he had a political party. So it was interesting to see the dynamics, sort of behind the scenes uh—also we were working on a documentary at the time. There was an American filmmaker, who flew to Cairo, she wanted to make a documentary—we knew her. She’s Egyptian-American, so it was sort of interesting because we had to sort of do a lot of digging to get contacts for her. And some of the contacts were very politicized —or very active—political activists really. So it was—it was somehow interesting—I don’t think I realized how much more invested other people are than I am.
[00:20:01]
Or I think I realized it when I saw other people who were that much more invested, because they were camped out in the Square for eighteen days, we’re not moving, we’re not leaving, we can get arrested, and we come back, we’re going to do this, we’re going to do that. So I think it was interesting to also feel that I’m involved, but I’m not that involved. So.
Interviewer:
Can you give me a—can you give a description of the demonstrators that you encountered? Like different class, background, religion, age, gender, anyone, any particular description you would like to—?
Interviewee:
I think everything—everyone. Like I’ve seen so many different types—some people who were there sitting you know, with their iPads, doing this and that, and the lady with the Chihuahua and the people who maybe don’t have really—I don’t know if they cut their—classified as homeless people, but they really don’t have a home maybe.
[00:21:07]
Who were there there, existing in this space. People who were—motivated by economic or political demands, but—or economic demands more, I think. Um—everyone really.
Interviewer:
And what about the foreigners, children?
Interviewee:
Ah yeah, actually I saw a lot of children who were there with their parents.
Interviewer:
Mh-hm.
Interviewee:
Even on the day that Mubarak stepped down. I remember there were a lot of children there. I remember a group of girls, because the the filmmaker that was coming, was looking for women in the revolution, and I saw some of the, sort of, observations that I had were of women.
[00:22:02]
And I remember one day there was a group of girls who were obviously maybe high school students, and they were there with one of the girls’ moms. And they were all standing there with their signs, and they were very interesting—sort of to just see you know. I tried to imagine what it would have been like if I was in high school, and I don’t think my mom would have taken me to Tahrir [laughs], but it was interesting to see that. But also the crowd changed. I would say that there was a sort of a consistent—there was a certain energy that was there, and a certain code of conduct, that was somehow—I don’t, I don’t—I think it was unspoken—an unspoken code of conduct that everyone abided by which was really amazing.
[00:23:00]
Um—I won’t speak for the 28th because I wasn’t there, but since I—since I went, maybe the 30th through the 11th? No, through the, through the 5th or the 6th?
Interviewer:
Okay.
Interviewee:
And then the 5th or the 6th, the following week is the week that they said, everyone go back to work, enough of this nonsense [laughs], and we’ll deal with the guys in Tahrir. And that week, the—I think the demographics changed, because there were a lot—many more observers. I think that sort of that uh—
Interviewer:
Observers, not participants?
Interviewee:
Many more observers, yes.
Interviewer:
Okay.
Interviewee:
And I think that was the week when you started to feel that the harassments came back as well.
[00:24:02]
Because—I think by that point, the sort of the—one, curiosity got the better or best of people. Two—they had sort of—they hadn’t—I guess the media was not able to maintain the air of Tahrir’s ticking bomb. [laughs] Or it seemed less scary to people I think. So I think I saw a lot more people who were just there like couples, who would walk down you know, or sitting near Qasr El Nil Bridge, and go take a look and say ‘Ahhh’ you know make comments or whatever. So I think the demographics changed a lot during that week. But before that, really it was so, so—it was so diverse—kids and their parents and middle aged women.
[00:25:05]
Old men, old women –very poor, very wealthy, very bourgeois. I mean there were the women who were their Louis Vuitton bags. You know sort of very—and their sunglasses, their designer sunglasses and it was sort of I think weird. It was like, “What are you doing here, and why are you protesting? What are you protesting against anyway?” But it was interesting, sort of to see that— that whole dynamic and to see people seeing each other, more than anything else.
Interviewer:
How did they—how did they interact with each other, all these different types of people? Did they keep their distance, or would they talk with each other?
Interviewee:
I think everyone spoke—I think people did talk. I think obviously there was the—the—people gravitated towards people who are more like them. Or they called friends, hey I’m in Tahrir, where are you? [laughs]
[00:26:02]
Um—but also—no I feel like people—I think I saw a lot of people, yes interacting with people whom they would not normally interact with, or listening. Like really listening to and hearing people that they wouldn’t normally hear. I wouldn’t generalize though, but—but at least seeing the different parties, seeing the different social groups side by side and sort of co-existing and collecting the garbage together, and you know, doing whatever, collectively was interesting.
Interviewer:
Describe uh can you describe the presence of AUC faculty students, alumni and staff at the demonstrations and their roles? Is there anyone in particular you would like to mention?
[00:27:00]
Interviewee:
[pause] I know that a lot of AUC faculty who were heavily involved in the demonstrations—even via media. I know that ###### was heavily involved and he was very vocal as well, in the media. I was recently at their book signing for ######’s book as well. I know that she was heavily involved. I saw a lot of familiar faces, and I saw a lot of AUC alums. Some of them are very involved—some of them are activists, some of them are people I know, they are friends that are activists and I know that they are—they’ve been very heavily involved from the beginning. Some of them less so. I think—I think it was sort of—it’s sort of different for AUC, even for AUC alums, especially people who came from the old campus.
[00:28:11]
Not—um—because there’s an affiliation with that space. So I think that there is a comfort in that space that maybe other people from other universities or other whatever, don’t necessarily have because, navigating the space on foot for four years, will automatically make you feel that this is somehow my space too. So I can understand why AUC or AUC alumn or AUC staff were very sort of present um or they had sort of comfort, I think that maybe other people don’t have this much—but I think—yeah, I think—so I see even till today, I see a lot of AUC alums and faculty who are very, very, very invested then in the process, so.
[00:29:11]
Interviewer:
You’ve mentioned a couple of speeches but were there other speeches, chants, jokes, performances at the Tahrir Square, or anything that you found memorable?
Interviewee:
Um—
Interviewer:
Funny banners, chants, jokes?
Interviewee:
There were so many funny banners, I can’t even remember them. Jokes yes, there were jokes every single day. They were like fifteen jokes a day, every single day [snaps fingers] on your phone, you would get another joke about something new, or something different or whatever.
[00:30:00]
It was funny because it was sort of a very stressful situation—because we came from place of very sort of stillness you know, there’s nothing changing, there’s nothing happening, and we went to a very unstable sort of—frantic almost uh situation. So it was interesting to see the—how people actually dealt with that, and a lot of it was through humor. There must be something. I’m sure there is, at least one thing that was notable. I remember there was a puppeteer, there was a guy um a guy with marionettes, who was pretty cool, actually he had a marionette of Omar Suleiman, which was really cool. I might have a few photos of that—let me check. There was so much—there’s a lot of singing all the time—but I can't remember off the top of my head, no. Not any one thing that was memorable, I think it was everything.
[00:31:17]
Interviewer:
Okay. Do you have any other impressions about the physical location or setting of protests at Tahrir Square or elsewhere? Was there like a bridge or a monument or a particular street or a spot that was memorable for you, because of an incident or anything of that sort?
Interviewee:
This is in reference to the eighteen days or in general?
Interviewer:
Eighteen days or after.
Interviewee:
I’d say—Mohamed Mahmoud [Street] obviously.
[00:32:02]
And Qasr al-Nil Bridge, because I participated in the anniversary um—march that went down Qasr al-Nil Bridge that was sort of—literally not even sure they still go there [laughs]. But it was a very powerful moment, the anniversary that day because um—all of the chants were against the military council. And I—for me there was a separation between what happened in November—and Mohamed Mahmoud, because at the time I went and—
Interviewer:
You were present during the Mohamed Mahmoud?
Interviewee:
Yeah, I was present. I didn’t go down the street. I, I just—I didn’t, because at one point I felt—I think it was sort of weird.
[00:33:01]
It was—there was this—as I was saying, very carnivalesque sort of cotton candy, popcorn, candied apples in the square, there were sweet potatoes—and yet down—down Mohamed Mahmoud, even if you just stood at the end of the entrance—which was what I did, I stood at the entrance to the street, and it was just literally you’re engulfed in teargas. That’s very memorable to me, because obviously having spent my four years at AUC (American University in Cairo) downtown campus, and spent I think two and a half years also at the downtown campus while I was doing my Master’s, I somehow feel that the street—I think this—I feel like I have ownership over this street, more than I feel that I have ownership over the street in which I live. Probably because I’ve lived—I spent more time there.
[00:34:02]
So it was—it was weird—there was something un—very unsettling about this—one, the carnivalesque—the contrast between the very carnivalesque Square, and the street where people—I remember one day I was standing there, it was during these events, I standing there with a friend, and she’s standing and chatting blah, blah, blah and we were both very confused, and we don’t know, we don’t know what to do you know. And on like three, four different occasions, someone came up to me and said to me, “So where’s the fighting? Yeah, we’re going to the—we’re going to fight.” “What are you guys standing doing here?” “Oh, we’re going to the fight.” So there was also this feeling like people are literally going to sacrifice themselves almost, without knowing why. And the senselessness of it for me, was—unsettling. It was also, it also just happened—I was also there on the night where there was the gassing incident.
[00:35:05]
That sort of got [whistles] swept, under the rug and nobody really found out what—what happened with that but there was just—you know I teared up and I felt uncomfortable, and it was like maybe I’ve just been here for too long—
Interviewer:
Was this at the Square?
Interviewee:
Yeah—so I was like maybe I’ve just been here for too long, maybe I should just start leaving or whatever, and it—as I was walking out, I felt the smell was stronger, even though I was walking in the opposite direction of Mohamed Mahmoud, and the wind comes down Qasr al-Nil towards Mohamed Mahmoud and not the other way around, so it was sort of weird that I was still smelling this, and feeling itchy, and after I left everyone reported that—that the Square had somehow been gassed, and nobody really found out how or why or what happened. So that was—for me that was—that was a very unsettling moment.
[00:36:03]
To feel that I had some—I had just—some—someone had done something invisibly, you know, to eject me from the space that was very unsettling. And that’s a very memorable time for me, in that—the entrance to Mohamed Mahmoud, the Square—because I went from the Square to the entrance and down Qasr al-Nil again to go home, and that whole route for me was—I think that that incident. Afterwards—after Mohamed Mahmoud ended—and we’re walking down that street when it was just sad and dark and very heavy—and there was a lot of graffiti coming up at the time.
[00:37:03]
It was mostly the martyrs and the people who had lost their eyes, a lot of portraits of the people that lost their eyes, but it was very—and I think that was in December, and I was shooting another documentary at the time and I was there with the crew and they said you know we’re going to take a walk around, and at the time the Square was sort of ghost town, empty, garbage everywhere—fights would break up over nothing and sort of—and I remember I walked down the street um on one of those days, and it was just such a—I don’t know, I can’t even describe. Let’s just leave that.
Interviewer:
Okay, thank you very much.
Interviewee:
Oh no worries. [laughs]
Interviewer:
Okay. Can you describe the commercial and service activities that emerged at the demonstrations? Like food vendors, cleaning, medical services?
[00:38:03]
Interviewee:
[coughs] Everything and like, all sort of—
Interviewer:
Were they purely commercial or out of good will?
Interviewee:
There was a lot—there was a lot of goodwill. I mean the doctors were there for good—out of good will. A lot of people were passing out food—but a lot of it was just pure business. And there’s a brand of cigarettes I have never seen anywhere else, that looks like a Marlboro that is not a Marlboro, that is sold for like four pounds, five pounds that—
Interviewer:
What was it called?
Interviewee:
I don’t even remember [laughs]. It looks like a Marlboro though. There were phone cards. There were—I remember one day I was parked somewhere and someone was trying to sell me a flag, and he was like, “It’s the Revolution flag, it’s the Revolution flag.” And I was like, “No it’s not the revolution flag, it’s the Egyptian flag.” [laughs]
[00:39:01]
So food, drink—everything—t-shirts, all of a sudden you know Egyptian flags on t-shirts and slogans on t-shirts and—a lot of Egyptian pride sort of commercialized um—
Interviewer:
Can you tell us about the aspect of demonstrators camping or sleeping in Tahrir Square, just a description of them, how they were organized grouped if you—but you—did you spend a night at the Square?
Interviewee:
No, I spent—no, I went one day at—late at night—
Interviewer:
Right, okay. Yeah.
Interviewee:
And—uh but I don’t think I have enough insight. I know that they—
Interviewer:
From what you could—have a—from what you observed.
[00:40:00]
Interviewee:
I think people were sort of um—I don’t know how the groupings were. There certainly were some groupings—but it seemed to me that it was—people brought their tents and camped out. I even know of like a few of my friends who—I know one person who spent the whole eighteen days there. And then anytime there was a camp out, she went—she’s an activist, she’s very involved—but I also know a few people who would just take their tent one day, and go to Tahrir camp out and go home the next day. But I don’t know how it was organized in terms of like space. Um—it seemed very casual to me, and like one—one day I went very, very late, and was there to like 2:00 or 3:00 AM. And like oh people got up, changed into their pajamas, chilled for a bit and they went to bed and it was fine.
[00:41:05]
Interviewer:
Did you personally witness any violence or did you suffer any injuries or bodily harm or see it happen to others?
Interviewee:
I didn’t experience any bodily harm, besides harassment obviously which has increased on the day of—I think the first day for serious like sexual incidents to start emerging was the day that—was the 11th of February. And I went into the Square, I was—I was like on the bridge, I saw the Square from above and I went into the Square, right after it was announced, and I think it was—we were three, four girls. And we all got groped like the—all the way in [laughs].
[00:42:02]
So by the time we were leaving, I was like okay, I don’t think I want to necessarily be here [laughs] any more—Mohamed Mahmoud, obviously I know, I know people who were injured in that. And I saw a lot of people who came out sort of you know, with injuries and—and—and driven away on motorcycles. Um—those are the two—those are the—I think it was mainly that during Mohamed Mahmoud that I saw a lot of injuries.
Interviewer:
So what you witnessed or heard, did you expect this level of violence?
[00:42:48]
Interviewee:
[Pause] Um—I don’t—I don’t know how to answer that question. I didn’t expect or not expect anything I think. Mohamed Mahmoud, there was a street battle going on, so there—it was physical and there was people who went—it wasn’t even like you could be standing on—in the Square, with the exception of the gassing incident, it wasn’t even like you could be standing in the Square and something could happen to you. You could literally be standing in the Square and nothing would ever happen to you. But people who went into the street were—knew that they were going into a sort of a “war zone,” quote unquote, or like a battle zone. So I can’t say I didn’t—I expected or I didn’t expect anything. I—I don’t know how to answer the question.
Interviewer:
That’s fine. Besides the violence and the harassment, were you ever interrogate—interrogated or saw someone being interrogated?
[00:44:01]
Interviewee:
No.
Interviewer:
If you saw any property damage, how and when did it happen and who was involved?
Interviewee:
Like with my own eyes?
Interviewer:
Yeah.
Interviewee:
Uh—I don’t think I saw—
Interviewer:
Burning of cars, trashing of cars, buildings?
Interviewee:
No, I don’t think I saw anything. —no I don’t think I saw anything.
Interviewer:
What do you think were the most pivotal moments of the events of January and February?
Interviewee:
Um—the 28th. The cutting off of the communications—the 1st of February, Mubarak’s speech about, “I want to die in my homeland and blah, blah, blah to put a sort of—empathized somehow with him.
[00:45:03]
The morning of the 2nd or the afternoon of the 2nd, with the Battle of the Camels. They literally were opposite one another. Or they had the opposite effect and I don’t remember when it happened, but I remember that one night where Wael Ghoneim appeared on one of the talk shows, I don’t remember which night it was, uh but the next day it was scheduled for a Million Man March, and it was huge. Huge, it was like crazy—
Interviewer:
Were you available during the Million Man March?
Interviewee:
I think so, yes. The next day the—of the Wael Ghoneim speech, he didn’t—actually it wasn’t the speech. He appeared on the show, he told the story and he walked off the show for some reason.
[00:46:00]
Um—I think those are the main—also I think the night of the 10th, when everyone—there’s pivotal—okay, so the 28th obviously, the—the 1st, the speech on the night of the 1st, the Battle of the Camels, the Wael Ghoneim TV interview and the week of 11th, I remember it was like the 6th—the week of the 6th. The week of the 6th when they said go—go to work, everyone go to work, this is over, enough of this uh we’re losing money, the economy is going to—it has been trashed, and people decided not to go to work, and there were strikes and I think that was the key pivotal moment that broke everything.
[00:47:00]
That—that action during that week and then the night of the 10th when everyone expected him to step down and he didn’t, and everyone woke up the next day and went to the—well actually it wasn’t the next day, it was the night of the 10th, people started going to the presidential palace, and they camped out there and they went to Maspero, and they camped out there and on the 11th, I was standing on 6th of October Bridge, and I looked to the right, and I could see Tahrir and Qasr al-Nil Bridge, all the way down packed. And I looked to the left, and I could see Maspero all the way down packed, and that was like there way—there was no way of—there’s no way to think about—I think that was just like a realization that this many people are just not willing to accept what happened last night.
[00:48:00]
Interviewer:
From those events, was there anything that surprised you?
Interviewee:
Uh—surprised me in what way?
Interviewer:
That you found shocking or you did not expect it or—
Interviewee:
I didn’t expect—well I don’t think anyone expected anything, like at the time, like nobody could say that they expected the, the Battle of the Camels to happen. That was shocking and is still to this day shocking. Nobody would have ever imagined that this was something that could happen in broad daylight and in a public square literally. So that was obviously very shocking.
[00:49:00]
I was surprised somehow that people reacted very emotionally with uh to Wael Ghoneim’s interview. It was interesting to see that people really became involved somehow. Nothing else that I would say.
Interviewer:
Can you comment on how your perceptions and emotions changed over the eighteen days of the revolution, and in the weeks afterwards?
Interviewee:
It was very—it was a very emotional time obviously. There was like everything that you could possibly—the whole spectrum of emotions was there, coexisting at different times. There was fear, there was—as I was telling you, I live far out and because literally there was nothing, behind my house, this is a desert.
[00:50:00]
And I actually knew two people, who had incidents. In retrospect, I realize this because they had political or economic affiliations that were—that put them in that position, but I knew two people whose houses were torched who lived in the outskirts of the city, or lived in the suburbs. So that somehow was unsettling or it reinforced the fear in a much more real way than the media scare campaign. There was some joy. There was also some loss of fear I think. There was some pride or like—all of these were emotions that have like existed. There was a sense of affiliation.
[00:51:02]
There was anger. There was a lot of anger, I was very, very angry like a lot of the time. I think those are—after the eighteen days there’s also confusion and frustration and uncertainty. Uh—confidence and loss of confidence in one’s self and in the process I guess. And I think a lot of those emotions have continued, but the extreme, very powerful, moving emotions uh, the fear, the rage, the pride, the joy—the night of the 11th was a party, it was amazing.
[00:52:11]
We went to a restaurant and someone had a bottle of champagne, someone with us had a bottle of champagne and he walked around the whole restaurant, and he poured champagne for everyone in the restaurant, and there he toasted everyone in the restaurant. I mean there was—there was this joy, there was this extreme celebration and pride. Since then more and more the uncertainty—the uncertainty surfaces. The—it’s not fear but it’s more—I also feel I have to defend my position a lot of the time, because like for the presidential elections for instance, I—I made a choice to vote in a certain way that my family did not think was the right way.
[00:53:03]
It was very different than they voted, so um they had their sort of reservations, “Well how could you do that, why don’t you vote for this person?” Like I don’t think this is right, and I don’t believe in it and I don’t support it. But feeling that I have to be in the sort of the defensive position a lot of the time as well even though—even though I’m not that invested, but I hold these opinions, so I’m not an activist but I hold these opinions none the less, even then I feel like I have to support—I have to defend myself, probably even more than if I were an activist, in which case I would have my own support network, because that’s—that’s who I am. [pause] A lot of anger, a lot of rage, a lot of sadness also because there’s been a lot of death and a lot of unnecessary actions.
[00:54:00]
A lot of senseless violence I think, and I—I know that people—I mean I’ve had conversations where people sort of were critical of me using the word senseless, but I think that a lot of the time it was senseless. It was just they want a battle, they—they are going to provoke you into fighting, and it’s the wrong thing to do, because you’re never going to win [unintelligible] so—so yeah, I think—everything you can imagine. Like all of the emotions you can ever imagine that you never exist [laughs], happened at the same time, and then in varying degrees afterwards.
Interviewer:
Did you personally observe a diversity of opinion about the events of the revolution, from your friends, social circle, families?
Interviewee:
Yes.
Interviewer:
How different were they?
Interviewee:
Very different. Very, very different.
Interviewer:
So you guys were not on the same page?
Interviewee:
Uh yeah, no I’ve seen the whole—I think the whole spectrum.
[00:55:00]
I think everyone has this thing from, “Those kids need to get out of Tahrir,” to uh, “I’m in Tahrir uh and I’m—I’m living in Tahrir or I’m staying in Tahrir,” to uh, “What is this sort of wise thing to do and let’s sit down and talk strategy and talk blah blah blah.” I think the whole range is there.
[00:55:20]
[End of interview]