The 'almost drivers' of the 00's

I've been watching F1 since 1995 (I was six at the time), but more 'consciously' from 2001 onwards. I've been reading Wikipedia pages about teams from this era (Jaguar, Toyota, Spyker, Midland, Super Aguri, Honda, Brawn, etc) for the past four or five hours.

Some got proper chances, such as Zonta, who scored three points in 38 starts, or Speed, who scored none in 28 races - but drivers like Enge never got the chance (three races end season), or Wilson who was doing remarkably well at Minardi, until he joined Jaguar mid-season. Pizzonia had a weird career as well, joining twice somewhere in the season and scoring in both terms - but was just without contract the next season and that was his F1 career.

Among these are drivers which only got very limited chances. Da Matta outscored Panis in his debut season, and I can't help but wonder how he would have done in a more competitive car.

Would any of these drivers have been potential race winners? (or more?). I can't help but wonder. Cause drivers like Massa didn't do all that well either in their debut season, but they got another chance, and now he's got 11 wins and was almost world champion. Button was sacked after his first season (which he finished 8th) at Williams, and then he scored only two points the next season for Benetton. That could have sort of ended his career, but no; he got another chance.

I can't help but wonder about the 'almost' drivers and perhaps their wasted opportunities. Or perhaps they just weren't F1 material.

The history of F1 is littered with the names of drivers who didn't quite make the cut, for whatever reasons. You might enjoy a visit to http://f1rejects.com/. While its true that some had a better kick at it than others, none of the guys you've listed were particularly impressive imo.

Button was sacked after his first season (which he finished 8th) at Williams, and then he scored only two points the next season for Benetton. That could have sort of ended his career, but no; he got another chance.

From what I understand he was still under contract with Williams in 2001 and 2002, but was farmed out to Benneton as the two Williams seats were aleady taken, with a deal already in place with JPM for 2001 before Button even got the 2000 seat.

The likes of Barrichello, Trulli, Fisichella, Coulthard (none of whom were champion) have had very long careers, all over 229 GPs, including much of the 00's. Some of the plum seats were being occupied by people with very long careers.

Is two or three years in F1 enough to repay the effort and cost of getting there (like Kobayashi might be facing now, or the Torro Rosso guys from last year)? Can ten years be considered a complete F1 career (which Massa is just completing)?

I guess it was always like this, but IMO career lengths of non-champion drivers got out of hand there for a while.

Enge ballsed it up himself with his cokeheadism. Liuzzi ditto with his lack of dedication (there was a story he missed a test cos Ikea were delivering a bed for him). Had Firman and Fisichella driven each other's cars at Brazil '03, Ralph would be a GP winner - he was running alongside Fisi when his engine went boom. It was probably too late for him. Ditto for Bourdais, McNish, Pantano, Montagny and Davidson; Bourdais particularly unlucky cos he was paired with the unknown quantity Vettel.

Too early for Klien and I think many called that at the time - should have been allowed to season before being accelerated into a high-profile seat. I disagree that Nakajima, Monteiro and Bernoldi had good lower formulae records - they were mediocre at best and none of them was in any way good enough for F1. Burti is a mix between them and Klien, he had two F3 seasons in Britain and was beaten by the mighty Marc Hynes, but we never properly saw him before he was Irvined into retirement. Pizzaboy was an enigma, perhaps the Magnussen of the 2ks.

The real missing drivers were those who never made it to F1; it's a positive crime Jamie Green was never given a chance, he completely, totally and utterly bitchslapped Hamilton, Rosberg, Kubica and Sutil in F3, but he had the misfortune of not being from a country desperate to launder money in Europe or with businessmen eager to parade nationalist dick, and James Courtney would have been a better stab at an Aussie world champ than Webber had Jag not provided him with near-fatal equipment in testing.

From what I understand he was still under contract with Williams in 2001 and 2002, but was farmed out to Benneton as the two Williams seats were aleady taken, with a deal already in place with JPM for 2001 before Button even got the 2000 seat.

Enge ballsed it up himself with his cokeheadism. Liuzzi ditto with his lack of dedication (there was a story he missed a test cos Ikea were delivering a bed for him). Had Firman and Fisichella driven each other's cars at Brazil '03, Ralph would be a GP winner - he was running alongside Fisi when his engine went boom. It was probably too late for him. Ditto for Bourdais, McNish, Pantano, Montagny and Davidson; Bourdais particularly unlucky cos he was paired with the unknown quantity Vettel.

The real missing drivers were those who never made it to F1; it's a positive crime Jamie Green was never given a chance, he completely, totally and utterly bitchslapped Hamilton, Rosberg, Kubica and Sutil in F3, but he had the misfortune of not being from a country desperate to launder money in Europe or with businessmen eager to parade nationalist dick, and James Courtney would have been a better stab at an Aussie world champ than Webber had Jag not provided him with near-fatal equipment in testing.

lol is it hyperbole Sunday or you liquored up?entertaining write up though

There's a bit of a difference between funding F3 and funding F1. You'd have to be deluded if you wanted Karthikeyan in your car over Green without an eyewatering wodge of cash.

Sutil is the name that really stands out for me among that group, but his career was sadly compromised by "that" incident...

It took him four years to become a regular top ten finisher. Not many others get similar extended chances. And he only started looking impressive when he had a kick up the arse from a rookie team-mate - which has happened with a few other drivers, which in turn suggests a lack of motivation when finding a comfortable place amongst many (q.v. Trulli).

One other big problem though is the nature of junior formulae. What's the point of learning your trade in basic formulae when F1 is in another league techwise? At least 25 years ago they all changed gear the same way.

I lose track to which substance Enge is addicted this week, hasn't he failed multiple drug tests? Plus the money laundering thing used to be linked with that (q.v. the Whittington brothers paying cashmoney for their Indy Marches and Dale W allegedly being high as a kite being flown from the Shuttle at the start of the '82 500). Changing the subject completely, funny that some Argentine drivers seemed to go far with not earth-shattering talent right up to about 1982 and then vanished from the scene (Angel Guerra, Quique Mansilla, Ricardo Zunino).

I was so excited when Klien raced for Hispania, he's still a reasonably young driver as well. Younger in fact than many of the current grid, not even 30 yet.

Anyone know what exactly happened to James Courtney? I've never read anything detailed about his accident at Monza, other than that it was a big one and some reckon he was never the same after it. Was Jaguar to blame somehow?

Justin Wilson's career was let down by his height - Minardi had to design a car around him in order for him to fit it - and money, as he was shafted at Jaguar due to the team needing to take on a pay driver.

I never felt Anthony Davidson had a fair shot at F1, 24 races over the course of 6 years would be difficult for anyone to make an impression in. But he probably should have done better at Super Aguri, as he was too often outpaced by Takuma Sato. Though, to be fair, Sato had more experience at the time.

Sometimes is does not come down to talent in my opinion sometimes it is about luck and timing. Drivers like Bourdais, Wilson, Salo stand out most to me. Given opportunities i think the 3 of them could of easy been regular podium contenders. I also think Alesi should of had much more than 1 GP win under his belt, but sometimes it just does not happen.

I mean who would of thought in 2008 that Webber and Button would become regular podium contenders and sure of GP wins in the years to follow. Talent does come into it yes. However a lot of it is also timing and luck.

There's a bit of a difference between funding F3 and funding F1. You'd have to be deluded if you wanted Karthikeyan in your car over Green without an eyewatering wodge of cash.

It took him four years to become a regular top ten finisher. Not many others get similar extended chances. And he only started looking impressive when he had a kick up the arse from a rookie team-mate - which has happened with a few other drivers, which in turn suggests a lack of motivation when finding a comfortable place amongst many (q.v. Trulli).

One other big problem though is the nature of junior formulae. What's the point of learning your trade in basic formulae when F1 is in another league techwise? At least 25 years ago they all changed gear the same way.

I would say his improvement was more down to the car rather than himself needing to sort his shit out, Force India really turned the team around in 2010 with that car

The real missing drivers were those who never made it to F1; it's a positive crime Jamie Green was never given a chance, he completely, totally and utterly bitchslapped Hamilton, Rosberg, Kubica and Sutil in F3, but he had the misfortune of not being from a country desperate to launder money in Europe or with businessmen eager to parade nationalist dick, and James Courtney would have been a better stab at an Aussie world champ than Webber had Jag not provided him with near-fatal equipment in testing.

Add Adam Carroll to that list as well. How he never got a chance is beyond me. I know pay drivers are part of F1, but when you see the likes of Yoong, Ide, Yamamoto to name a few getting drives it makes a mockery of the claim that f1 has the best drivers in the world.

Add Adam Carroll to that list as well. How he never got a chance is beyond me. I know pay drivers are part of F1, but when you see the likes of Yoong, Ide, Yamamoto to name a few getting drives it makes a mockery of the claim that f1 has the best drivers in the world.

Adam Carroll had enough money to make it in F1, but what else makes you think he should have got a drive? 2nd in British F3? 5th in GP2? Winning A1GP against great drivers such as Neel Jani and Filipe Albuquerque? He was one of the more average British drivers of the 00s.

I was so excited when Klien raced for Hispania, he's still a reasonably young driver as well. Younger in fact than many of the current grid, not even 30 yet.

Anyone know what exactly happened to James Courtney? I've never read anything detailed about his accident at Monza, other than that it was a big one and some reckon he was never the same after it. Was Jaguar to blame somehow?

Had Firman and Fisichella driven each other's cars at Brazil '03, Ralph would be a GP winner - he was running alongside Fisi when his engine went boom. It was probably too late for him.

He was actually clouted by Olivier Panis's out-of-control Toyota, which had suffered a suspension failure under braking for Turn One. Fisichella's engine did fail, but it did so in parc fermé after he'd already "won" the race. He also wasn't helped by his massive crash at the Hungaroring, which caused him to miss two races through injury, but I would have like to see more of him, as he fared quite well against Fisichella and was able to beat him on occasion. From memory, he certainly did a better job than Pantano the following season.

Very interesting and complicated topic. I think we have to consider that only 20-24 seats are there to take, so to choose the best 20 drivers in the world isn't that easy. Of course there are certain drivers like Button or Massa which did receive a second chance and others didn't. But I think that for a F1-Team, there is more to consider than just being fast. It's still a money and technology driven sport, so you have to look at how he can attract sponsors, how he bahves with the media, how he's able to give technical feedback and so on. And it's also ultra competitive. Button & Hamilton are the perfect examples, that everything has to be perfect to make a good result. Personal & Working environment, psychologically, physiologically. There are just too many parameters for us outsiders and viewers to really judge if a driver is really good or bad. Well if they're in F1, they're definately good in some form. But f.e. i know a guy who had won a couple of series including karting where he beat drivers, which now drive in GP2. He just couldn't find any sponsor. So yes, some of these almost drivers could certainly be Grand-Prix winners, maybe even World Champions, which is a bit sad obviously. But I think, we just have to live with that, it's just how the sport works. On the other hand we saw a few drivers who just got there because of big sponsors and are now rocking F1.

I think you all should see this documentary about Mika Hakkinen:

It sheds some lights on how some drivers get to F1, and how lucky you have to be as a driver, to be in the right place at the right time. So yeah, we should just appreciate that this sport is so competitive, that we are able to see the best of the best and also looking into some other series from time to time should add something to that.

The likes of Barrichello, Trulli, Fisichella, Coulthard (none of whom were champion) have had very long careers, all over 229 GPs, including much of the 00's. Some of the plum seats were being occupied by people with very long careers.

Is two or three years in F1 enough to repay the effort and cost of getting there (like Kobayashi might be facing now, or the Torro Rosso guys from last year)? Can ten years be considered a complete F1 career (which Massa is just completing)?

I guess it was always like this, but IMO career lengths of non-champion drivers got out of hand there for a while.

Well, the typical path of an F1 driver is, impress with crazy skill in your few years at a midfield or lower team and then move to an upper midfield team or front running one. If you can't do that, have enough money to financially support a midfield team and stick around there for years, and if you lack the money or luck to impress a top team, you're out. Kobayashi has the skill IMHO, and he showed that at Japan, but he never had the sponsorship to keep himself in the midfield for too long while the top drives sorted themselves out. By all rights he should be at Ferrari and Massa back elsewhere, but Massa is having one of those ridiculously long careers mentioned earlier.

It was my impression there was more cash in F1 in around 2000 - 2008 than there is now, so teams are more likely to dump drivers without crazy money bags after just a few years if a top team doesn't swoop in and grab them, ala Perez. Plus in this climate the peso of Perez at Sauber and the bolivar of Pastor at Williams can literally buy podiums and give the cars a step up over all the other midfielders. Sauber will beat Mercedes at this rate, and that is a manufacturer team!

And in the 2000s the cars behind Williams, Ferrari, McLaren and possibly Renault were still monumentally unreliable.

Speaking of Ralf Firman, he had 6 DNFs in 14 races, and Fisi had 8 in 16. When you are given only 50% of the races to impress it just becomes ridiculous, and worse than even Toro Rosso. Bourdais is the one that sticks for me. He was clearly fast, just not the level of Vettel, who as we now know will likely win 3 WDC in a row.

Nope, Paffett wasn't/isn't F1 stuff. DTM/F1 doesn't easily cross over it seems. Paffett did some testing with McLaren and was much slower than Hamilton for example.

Withmarsh who seemed to be interested in having him in the team instead of Hamilton had to come up with lamest excuse. I never read a news bit elsewhere where a team boss said something along the line that a driver has to be given time to be up to speed to perform. That comment was about testing. That might be true for lower series, but in F1 a driver is ready, or not. And if he's slow in testing, well then that's it.

Nope, Paffett wasn't/isn't F1 stuff. DTM/F1 doesn't easily cross over it seems. Paffett did some testing with McLaren and was much slower than Hamilton for example.

Withmarsh who seemed to be interested in having him in the team instead of Hamilton had to come up with lamest excuse. I never read a news bit elsewhere where a team boss said something along the line that a driver has to be given time to be up to speed to perform. That comment was about testing. That might be true for lower series, but in F1 a driver is ready, or not. And if he's slow in testing, well then that's it.

All in all for Paffett continuing in DTM was the right decision IMO.

I thought he also said that some partners/sponsors didn't quite like the 'britishness' of the team.

JJ Lehto an another Finn who had potential, but never got it working in F1, but did succeed later in other series.

Well I think he never recovered from his serious testing accident, his come back certainly was hurried and he was not ready for it. Drivers to make a successful comeback after severe head trauma are or well rather is Mika Häkkinen and that's about it.

Anyone know what exactly happened to James Courtney? I've never read anything detailed about his accident at Monza, other than that it was a big one and some reckon he was never the same after it. Was Jaguar to blame somehow?

Suspension failure in a test that put him out of racing for a year. By which time the conveyor belt had moved on.

How long would you say it took Force India to make cars capable of regular top ten finishes?

Not the point. None of the bigger teams were falling over themselves in trying to rescue him from there.

Green had his chance to be the first Paul di Resta. For whatever reason he wasn't able to do it.

The problem is DTM does not sift talent in the same way. Susie Stoddart, who literally (and I mean literally literally) couldn't handle a shopping trolley, has kept Ralf Schumacher honest from time to time. And I'm not the greatest Ralf fan, but in F1 he would be lapping her after 2 laps.

I never knew that! Cool story though, how he woke up to Schumi helping him

I remembered reading it a couple of years ago in the paper and I just found the article. Some of the article is tainted with the usual Telegraph bias (the thing about beating button and hamilton) but the quotes from Courtney are quite interestinghttp://www.dailytele...4-1225965296300

I remembered reading it a couple of years ago in the paper and I just found the article. Some of the article is tainted with the usual Telegraph bias (the thing about beating button and hamilton) but the quotes from Courtney are quite interestinghttp://www.dailytele...4-1225965296300

The Telegraph is wrong about the date BTW: it was July 11 2002, not July 2.

I think the ultimate "Almost driver" is Markus Winkelhock. Got one shot at F1, led the race in the wet with no mistakes, was dumped and no one ever heard about him since.

We was just lucky but from Wiki;

According to Bob Varsha of the Speed Channel commentary team, Winkelhock is the only driver in Formula One history to start last on the grid and lead the race in his first Grand Prix, and due to the red flag and restart, is also the only driver in Formula One history to start both last and first on the grid in the same Grand Prix.

Add Adam Carroll to that list as well. How he never got a chance is beyond me. I know pay drivers are part of F1, but when you see the likes of Yoong, Ide, Yamamoto to name a few getting drives it makes a mockery of the claim that f1 has the best drivers in the world.

Adam Carroll, that's the name I was trying to remember yesterday. He was never the biggest talent from the junior series, but perhaps deserved a shot and was even linked with a couple of teams during the great 2010 switcharoo. Anyone know where he is now?

I think the ultimate "Almost driver" is Markus Winkelhock. Got one shot at F1, led the race in the wet with no mistakes, was dumped and no one ever heard about him since.

Pure luck he had wet tyres on at the right time, but it was a shame he only got that one outing. Of course Spyker instead needed a talentless pay driver...

About Sutil, in my opinion it was the 2009 season that really cost him. While his teammate nearly won a race, Sutil squandered several good qualifying positions - included a couple of top three spots, and only managed one points finish. Admittedly it wasn't all his fault, no matter how many times Trulli brings his photos, but had he capitalised on them it would of really helped his career. It's telling that despite being on one year contracts and having some sponsorship money, it never seemed like other teams were interested in him before last year.