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Doesn't always work with homos I'm afraid. If they're clingy types it can even backfire. They think it makes you more desperate, in need of "mothering" and thus an even easier catch. Then you have to try three times as hard to shake the toilet paper off of your shoe.

Oh dear, I can just imagine it! It backfired on me once, I have to admit. I think it made me seem even more of a challenge and a chance to hone his PC credentials. You know, so he could say something along the lines of "I've got no problem with pozzies, I even shagged one once!"

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

i want to clarify, if you go back and read the posts, you will see that ruralguy has stated several times he uses protection and recommends protection. The point I was trying to make is that undectable does not mean you are unable to transmit virus. Virus transmission is possible , even below quantifiable detection numbers. If the chance were nil at undetectable, then we could could quit taking our meds at that point w/o having viral rebound and declare ourselves cured; but that is just not the way it works. I also want to tell him that no offense is taken by those of us that were infected by blood transfusions and I appreciate your saying what you said. I am just trying to debate the subject based on the laws and facts and in no way want to judge or accuse anyone.

i want to clarify, if you go back and read the posts, you will see that ruralguy has stated several times he uses protection and recommends protection. The point I was trying to make is that undectable does not mean you are unable to transmit virus. Virus transmission is possible , even below quantifiable detection numbers. If the chance were nil at undetectable, then we could could quit taking our meds at that point w/o having viral rebound and declare ourselves cured; but that is just not the way it works. I also want to tell him that no offense is taken by those of us that were infected by blood transfusions and I appreciate your saying what you said. I am just trying to debate the subject based on the laws and facts and in no way want to judge or accuse anyone.

This is gobblygook. Undectable is considered non-transmissable by increasing numbers of scientists. Its controversial and hasn't impacted safe sex guidelines NOR criminal transmission and criminal non disclosure laws.

And yes, you gotta KEEP taking your HAART to stay there.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

This is a global forum. There are nations in the world where non disclosure is not a crime.There are states in the US where you are not obliged to disclose HIV status.

This thread is filled with sloppy confusion of criminal transmission and criminal non disclosure.

There are many good reasons to disclose to any partner. If you aren't willing to check the laws in your locale, then avoiding a crime may not be one of the reasons to disclose, if there is no law requiring you to do so.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

This is a global forum. There are nations in the world where non disclosure is not a crime.There are states in the US where you are not obliged to disclose HIV status.

The golden rule is pretty universal though.

Rephrased in this context: Would you have rather been told by someone who knew they were Poz about their status before you were sexually active with them?

Implementing is a bitch though. What is "sexually active"? Do you have to read the mind of the other person for a definition? That's at the core of your question, and there's no easy answer except about who you are and who you aspire to be.

Rephrased in this context: Would you have rather been told by someone who knew they were Poz about their status before you were sexually active with them?

If I'd used a condom this question would have been rendered irrelevant, so I don't really understand this line of reasoning. It's also amplified as irrelevant by the large multitudes that are infected by have never tested, which means you never actually have knowledge about what a partner has or doesn't have.

Merely responding to those in this thread who keep insisting you have to disclose by law. It may not be the case.

As to "would you want the person to disclose to you?"wake up man, smell the reality -- the answer of this old pro is that for more than two decades I followed safe sex rules with strangers and there were many many times it never mattered to me enough to ask and I probably neither wanted to or needed to know. It was assumed a percentage were positive. Period.

But, I'll give you this - when ASKED, there is no defense for lying then screwing. I have been lied to and bitterly resented those people for the lie. Including long-term partners. Especially those. And despite it being safe sex.

If you are positive, and someone asked you if you are positive, and you don't want to answer, then you can lie, but then you can't screw. You have to walk away. Have to make up a excuse, like Marsha Brady, "something suddenly came up", and not screw. Or you tell the truth and the potential partner gets to decide.

If you are in the middle of the act, and some silly stranger asks if you are positive, well, if you are having safe sex, why not just say yeah brother and deal with the consequences. Even then, if you feel like you might be in danger, I guess you can say "wow, you know how to spoil a hot moment" and zip up and leave without confirming or denying.

I've never been in an unsafe situation where the question came up.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

If you live in one of those states where there are laws requiring disclosure of HIV, in any sex act, then none of this chat implies. Always disclose, and while you are at it, get it in writing that you disclosed, cause it could come down to your word against the other.... All for nuthin. I'd move. Or get a partner, stay faithful, and get it in writing.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

If I'd used a condom this question would have been rendered irrelevant, so I don't really understand this line of reasoning. It's also amplified as irrelevant by the large multitudes that are infected by have never tested, which means you never actually have knowledge about what a partner has or doesn't have.

It's only irrelevant if you define the issue solely in terms of transmission. The OP is clearly struggling with expectations of people he meets.

Your suggestion is that those expectations of disclosure do not matter if there is no risk of transmission. But if one is dealing with people's expectations you may have to go beyond "no risk of transmission" to treat them as they wish to be treated. Course the golden rule doesn't say you have to go so far as they would expect -- and to meet some people's expectations you would need to wear a flashing HIV+ sign in every dark bar -- but you do need to get comfortable with what you would want to know in their situation.

Perhaps, Miss P, you have decided that the only time you would want to know would be if there was no condom. That's great, but you are not the OP. To feel good about this Bruh is probably going to need to think through what he would have liked, when he was on the other side of the question.

It's probably situational -- a different answer in the bar from the sex club from the restaurant.

Uh, no dear -- in that last post of yours that I quoted you were replying to meech. The OP hasn't ventured in his own thread now for over a week. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of what you were saying.

By the way, I disagree with thinking sdcabincrew "nailed it". If I'm going to bareback with a partner, and definitely as the top, I need to know if they're positive or negative. I'm not going to see some drunk/high guy that's not thinking clearly. If others here are comfortable doing this then, well, I'm not sure what to say. I'm not even sure if I want to read the rest of his post there.

Uh, no dear -- in that last post of yours that I quoted you were replying to meech. The OP hasn't ventured in his own thread now for over a week. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of what you were saying.

By the way, I disagree with thinking sdcabincrew "nailed it". If I'm going to bareback with a partner, and definitely as the top, I need to know if they're positive or negative. I'm not going to see some drunk/high guy that's not thinking clearly. If others here are comfortable doing this then, well, I'm not sure what to say. I'm not even sure if I want to read the rest of his post there.

Quoted mecch, replied to OP in context of mecch quote. But ... whatever ... excess precision and all that ....

Did I link to the wrong post in that long thread? The point was that Sdcabincrew had found a way to disclose in a sex club setting (using language both memorable and concise). And also I thought folks who were replying here that had not seen that thread might find it germane (and fun),

I don't see how one can interpret the OP was talking about expectations of others. He simply relayed his frustration of disclosing too readily, only to find out the person he disclosed to does not respect his privacy one bit. What does that get to do with expectation of whether potential dates and sexual partners would want to be be with one of us?

to me this is a burden and a confusing subject.as much as i would like to tell and get it out of the way and feel that i have been honest as much as am worried that the other person will go spreading my hiv status to others who dont have the right to know.I only play safe and most of the guys i meet are for a one night stands.On the other hand,when i try to hook up with poz guys they all seem to want it unprotected :-( , i really feel isolated at times.

I don't see how one can interpret the OP was talking about expectations of others. He simply relayed his frustration of disclosing too readily, only to find out the person he disclosed to does not respect his privacy one bit. What does that get to do with expectation of whether potential dates and sexual partners would want to be be with one of us?

I don't think anyone was really misinterpreting the OP, it's just that any time we pozzies discuss the issue of disclosure, all this other stuff is going to come into the discussion because it's all part and parcel. It's all related. It's a huge, difficult subject.

Some here think the constant discussions on disclosure are beating a dead horse, but we're all in different places on our journey with hiv and I like to think (hope?) that the more we talk these things through, the more people are going to personally benefit and take a few more steps forward, instead of backward, on their journey. Some of us are already through the woods of disclosure, some of us are in the thick of it, and some are on the path just outside the forest and petrified of entering.

Maybe we could call it the Yellow Brick Road of Disclosure. You're going to meet a witch or two on the way, and run into some scary trees and monkeys, but you're also going to meet some good friends too. In the end, hopefully you'll get to the Emerald City and from there, home. Of which there's no place like.

And just because I can, I'd like to trot out my old chestnut - "the more we hide, the more we HAVE to hide."

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Sorry to offer the contrary opinion, or to open this to a old argument.Please check YOUR state's laws as to disclosure of HIV status before a sex act. Also, check YOUR state's laws about HIV transmission.

If there are no laws saying you have to disclose, then you do not have to disclose. If you transmit, it might be a crime, sometimes if you disclose, sometimes if you dont.

Those who say you are morally obliged to disclose, based on what code of morals, please?

Its a good idea to disclose. Maybe its your moral code, so stick to it.

The guy who spread the news was a jerk.

On the other hand, lets take a "hook up" just for sex. Or a place where people meet for sex, not cocktails and a potential boyfriend. Sex club. Park, etc.

In my book, if you are having safe sex in such as situation, you are not obliged to disclose. On the other hand, if a guy asks you, even in such a situation, in my book, I would disclose, since you were asked. Or, just say, "none of your business" and stop having sex with the person, or don't start. Leaves them in doubt - and you have confirmed nothing.

Disclosing in the above sex situations seems even less "morally" obligatory if you are on HAART and undetectable. But, this may, or may not, be LEGALLY advisable, so check it out where you live, or screw around.

I don't think anyone was really misinterpreting the OP, it's just that any time we pozzies discuss the issue of disclosure, all this other stuff is going to come into the discussion because it's all part and parcel. It's all related. It's a huge, difficult subject.

Some here think the constant discussions on disclosure are beating a dead horse, but we're all in different places on our journey with hiv and I like to think (hope?) that the more we talk these things through, the more people are going to personally benefit and take a few more steps forward, instead of backward, on their journey. Some of us are already through the woods of disclosure, some of us are in the thick of it, and some are on the path just outside the forest and petrified of entering.

Maybe we could call it the Yellow Brick Road of Disclosure. You're going to meet a witch or two on the way, and run into some scary trees and monkeys, but you're also going to meet some good friends too. In the end, hopefully you'll get to the Emerald City and from there, home. Of which there's no place like.

And just because I can, I'd like to trot out my old chestnut - "the more we hide, the more we HAVE to hide."

Just my 2p.

Ann

Damn Ann that is deeeep... I like the Yellow Brick Road of Disclosure analogy...... A very positive outlook indeed.

After my being diagnosed, a counselor at the HIV clinic told me: you don't have to disclose but you have to use condoms...

I think I don't even have to disclose anything because I think that everyone knows about my status, with only 500 cases and only 1 HIV clinic in this country, everyone who saw me entering this clinic knows I'm HIV+, and information spread very quick in this tiny country Cr.oatia is (especially in the gay community that is much like ''National Enquirer'')

Furthermore, the only person I disclosed was the best friend of mine (a lesbian), but she ran away from me, and told everyone I know (and don't know) about my status.

Now, I live hiding.

So, having a sex with someone here is a big no no.

I've never been a ''sexual'' person, but more of a romantic one, so it's even more difficult...I do think (subjectivelly speaking) one should disclose if relationship is (going to be) involved, even tho' I do think one should not necessarily have to disclose in a ONS situation...

The moral of the story: I was sexually active from 1999-2008, 9 partners (3 of them were boyfriends), with the last partner a condom was not used: and I tested positive.

I go throught the same thing! Now I have to be extra careful of whom I deal with at all. It is a hard task. And if someone ask me that I did not tell I tell them no. Not because I am trying to hide something but because I feel it is none of their business.

So I've been upfront when meeting someone new that I'm HIV+ and up until recently, I haven't had any issues. Well recently I told this guy I was and he told SEVERAL people about my status and it's starting to spread like wild fire! So many people don't disclose thier status which I always thought was wrong, but now I'm start to actually understand why they don't.

How can people expect you to be upfront if they are going to be so malicious about your status?

I'll put it this way when you say that you are 100% safe using a condom. My wife and I have both heard about several kids that were born in our area; their parents saying they weren't planned, the condom broke. As I've stated here B4, you should try to be careful, but sometimes sht just happens. As to the comment if you are undetectable you can't spread the virus: Sweden announced that last winter; a month later a study came out that disproved the Swiss theory. Read the past issues of Aids meds and POZ. it is in there. Like I said, it often depends on what meds you are on and if the meds pass into your genitals ( prostate/ testicals/ cowpers glan/ seminal vesicals). Some drugs don't. I'll go one step further. Having AIDS from being HIV pos. sucks. Been there. I know. I would not wish on my enemies. Anyone that is willing to "chance" exposing someone else without disclosing w/o giving them the opportunity to decline is an ass. End of story.

Even If HIV is detectable in semen, the risk of transmitting the virus from a HIV+ ''bottom'' person to a HIV- ''top'' person in MSM sex is very low if the condom is used.

In ideal world, everyone would disclose his/her HIV status with ease.But the world is not ideal, here where I live most people have 1980/1 level of knowledge on HIV/AIDS, even the gay community (which is more HIV+ unfriendly than the str8 community):

I just read this on Gallant's John's Hopkins website - read what he says about .....Undetectable viral load

Joel E. Gallant, M.D., M.P.H.

Posted on Oct 20, 2009 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I have read in this forum that there have been no known documented transmission of the HIV virus when undetectable. Is this true? Does pre-ejaculation carry the same risk as full ejaculating during intercourse or oral sex?

On Oct 21, 2009 Joel E. Gallant, M.D., M.P.H. replied:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I believe that is still true. The risk with pre-seminal fluid ("pre-cum") is lower, because boththe amount of HIV and the quantity of fluid are lower. However, there is HIV in preseminal fluid.

Please use a condom. I know condoms are just about as desirable as a garbage bag tied around your head, but think about it. How many of us would not have Hiv now if someone somewhere in the past would Have put a rubber on his willie? Would my wife have received infected blood? Maybe not. Would I have contracted the HIV? probably not. If you have no regard for yourself or your partners, please have some regard for others so they can give you the same mutual respect.

Nonetheless the statement supported by Gallant that there has been "been no known documented transmission of the HIV virus when undetectable" is pretty incredible. He is, after all, a world class expert and we are not.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I read this whole thread and I can't see where anyone is "sex negative" I see where unsafe sex is promoted and safe sex is promoted and there is fear of having sex since being diagnosed. Personally I pray the day comes when I can have sex again and hope all the rest of you can get all you can take as long as you don't put yourself or others at additional risk. having been in the position of not being able to have sex due to complications from surgery years ago and more recently from a prostatectomy, I am in the position to know what it like to not 'get any'. Very depressing not only for me , but my partner. And yes, even though using a rubber sucks, we did practice safe sex when having sex became possible again in the past to prevent each other further misery from exposure to differing mutations of the HIV and additional HIV med changes even though we orignally started out with the same mutations. No sex- no. Safe sex - yes. Lots of safe sex- yes, yes , yes. Come on people, just think about it, you don't go out and shovel snow barefoot and only wearing a thong. You put on shoes, coat and gloves to protect yourself from frost bite. It makes the same sense to dress your little buddy for protection too. Edit: 10/25/2009 I usually have many edits because I can't seem to get my fingers and brain to work togetr to correct spelling and words in the wrong place. It has been called to my attention that there appears to be no posts promoting unsafe sex. Either that has been edited out in the many edits I see here or I am answering the wrong thread. Either way , having re-read this entire thread I see that there is at least the question or implication that it may be possible to not transmit HIV if your viral load is <48 which only means the amount of virus in yur blood is too low for the test to detect. Sweden anounced earlier this year that undectable meant that it was o.k. to have unprotected sex. A month later POZ had an article that that theory had been disproved and it was not safe to have unprotected sex. A link to that article was just posted in another thread the other day. At any rate this entire thread has digressed off topic. The guy that went around blabbing is still an ass. The ability to have sez in my opinion is partly responsible for aloowing us to keep our mental sanity. The subconscious/conscious fear of taking risk can errode that bit of sanity over time.

was thinking maybe disclosure is the way to go for me. I just meet a dude who is neg. im poz undetectable on HAART for a yr. Any good tips on when the better time is to disclose? Upfront and right away or after you think it might go somewhere. Sex play, where is the line? Any sex play safe? First time having to disclose just a little guidance need.

What counts here is what he thinks is safe. So if your goal is to establish a trusting relationship, you should disclose your condition before any sex. Then you can work out between yourselves what you're both comfortable with.

I don't have much to offer for how to go about it. Probably an oblique reference in your conversation, such as an upcoming doctor's appointment, or time to take your pill(s), might be easiest. I wonder how you know his HIV status, but he not yours.