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Priorities Fuzzy After Davin Joseph

July 4th, 2011

After 1,000+ votes, Joe’s Sunday poll asking readers to name the the Bucs’ top priority in free agency revealed a clear winner: Davin Joseph with about 59 percent of the vote.

Nnamdi Asomugha checked in with about 26 percent (Joe is shaking his head). And Barrett Ruud took third with 7 percent, doubling Cadillac Williams and leaving Quincy Black as a forgotten man (1.9 percent).

Esteemed Tampa Tribune beat writer Roy Cummings agrees with Joe’s readers on Joseph being top priority, but Cummings’ next choices don’t match up to the poll.

“I think the Bucs have to re-sign Davin Joseph No. 1, Barrett Ruud No. 2, and Quincy Black No. 3,” Cummings said last week during an interview on WDAE-AM 620. “If they don’t do it, I have a hard time believing that their real game plan is to draft guys, develop them, and then re-sign them, because I think those guys are critical.

“You’ve heard Davin Joseph even talk about, ‘If they don’t bring back Barrett Ruud and maybe a Jeremy Trueblood, I got to wonder if I want to come back.’ So I got to think the players all feel those guys are just as important as we do.”

Joe’s on board with Joseph as top priority. There’s no reason to mess with the depth of the Bucs’ offensive line, and Joseph is a top flight guard when healthy. For Joe, health is a legitimate question mark with Joseph.

But Joe has to disagree with Cummings on Quincy Black. Joe’s not sure the Bucs have really developed him, and Joe questions his value.

Black started just 10 games last year and was off the field for some of the Bucs’ best defensive efforts. He’s not a standout in pass coverage, and the run defense has been woeful in the two years Black has been starting. And Joe keeps coming back to Mark Dominik paying Angelo Crowell handsomely in free agency to play Black’s position in 2009.

If Joe had to pick between Cadillac and Black, Joe would take Caddy.

Regardless, Dominik can’t pay everyone and extend the contracts of some of the young Buccaneers. Bucs fans should brace themselves to lose a handful of familiar faces.

49 Responses to “Priorities Fuzzy After Davin Joseph”

I think the Bucs will bring back Ruud for this season. It just makes sense, especially this late in the game. I believe Caddy will end up here as his options will be limited. I also think Joseph will be a priority and brought back. Beyond that the Bucs should be looking at signing up their young stars to long term deals with their CAP money. I think they ARE looking at doing just that.

@CharlieB – Sure the Bucs are a couple of miles under the cap, but that cash gets eaten up quickly in they re-sign Joseph, Ruud and Black, then you’ve got the other guys like Caddy, Crowder, Trueblood, Spurlock, etc. The Bucs have to consider what it will take to pay Freeman and possibly Mike Williams and Blount, Then you got a guy like Geno Hayes, who, if he has a big 2011, should be in high demand as a 24-year-old unrestricted free agent. Talib (gasp) is around the corner….Just can’t pay them all, especially if Dominik scores again in this year’s draft.

I agree that they shouldn’t pay everyone, but they could. If the price is wrong, let them walk. Except for Joseph and maybe Ruud (McKenzie has impressed me thoroughly), we can afford to lose the ones that ask too much. That said, with $60 million, you can afford to pay them all what they are worth and still have plenty left over. Trueblood, Caddy, Crowder, Black, Spurlock.. none of them deserve monster salaries. I would be surprised if we couldn’t get all five of them for $10m annually. That leaves over 50 to sign ruud, Joseph and room to re-up the rookies. I still think we should take a shot at Nnamdi for a short contract. Just enough time to ease through Ronde’s retirement and Talib maturing.

Joe is right on, Woody way off. Joseph is one,Joe nailed it with Ruud, Black at times seems mediocre, Hayward played better specially at the end of the year. Caddy is a MUST if we want to keep Freeman safe. I record games and I saw at least 15 times Caddy prevented Freeman getting thumped!

Joseph will only play for us with trueblood,? And if we sign Rudd? I like Joseph, yet I am not yet convinced he was worth a 1st and this is his 4th or 5th season? Has he played a complete season yet? From TC to 16th game? I don’t think so. And we are going to give him truckloads of cash…. is he a good player yes, but he makes demands and suggestions as to what the team does with personnel this year will sway him to sign with us or move on. I am not impressed with this attitude. Team leader, hmm tough call for Dominic…

Why in the world would anyone think Ruud would sign a 1 year contract? If you franchise him; his attitude would be 10 times worse than it was last year. This is his one and only chance to cash in! Next year he’ll be 29 and past the prime market value so if the Bucs push for the francise tag he’ll just hold out.

I believe if Dominic is the rock star we think he is, he can sign whom ever he feels is worthy of remaing a Buc. With the amount of money we are going to be required to spend and with a variation of signing bonuses, short term contracts, and long term contracts, I see no reason we can’t get all the players worthy of signing.

I want to hear from Coach Millard after about 2 weeks of camp when he knows what he has. The interviews with Jimmy Lake on Buccaneers.com are very good so far. I expect they will get around to all of the position coaches before the season starts. Just fire all the lawyers and let’s rock-n-roll.

It won’t be long and Joe will be the first interview many of the players and coaches look for. I don’t know how many of them follow JBF yet, but I’m sure their numbers are increasing. If you want to take the pulse of the Bucs’ fans, this is the place. Thomas has high blood pressure, but I’m sure they know that too.

I’m not sure if Joe understands the role of the Sam LB in the Tampa-2. He believes big numbers are the only way to show true value, obviously failing to remember that Al Singleton and Shelton Quarles NEVER put up big numbers as the Sam in the T-2.

The Sam LB’s job is to line up over the TE and push everything back to the middle in the running game and to often shadow the TE, RB, or drop into coverage in pass defense. In those respects he has done his job. It’s not Black’s fault that the players he channels the action back to (Ruud, Hayes) don’t make the necessary plays.

Black’s biggest problem is the lack of opportunity to show his talents. He is by far the best blitzer of our LBs, he’s also our biggest and strongest, not to mention the fastest but unfortunately for him he plays the Sam while Ruud has been stinking it up at the Mike. If Black had more opportunities and were moved to Mike or Will, I’m extremely confident he would perform better than the two other players we have there.

We keep coming back to this again. Quincy Black is our best linebacker. He is better at tackling and pass coverage than the other two LBs. Ruud being a good cover LB is a misconception, he is a mediocre one at it. He could not keep up with 75 year old Todd heap.

What I don’t get is, Steve White, the man that played the game at highest level on a similar defensive scheme told us many times how Quincy Black poses no problem to us and is better than advertised. Yet, I keep reading all negative comments about Black here. Obviously Black’s value cannot be properly understood by the average football fan Joe (not you Joes).

In Shelton Quarles last season (2001) as Sam before moving to Mike, in 16 games he had:
51 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 INT, 1 pass defensed, and 1 forced fumble.

In Al Singleton’s finest season (2002) for the world champion Bucs in 16 games he had:
63 tackles, 1 sack, 1 INT, 3 passes defensed, and 1 forced fumble

In Cato June’s best season as the Bucs Sam (2007), in 16 games he had:
69 tackles, 0 sacks, 1 INT, 4 passes defensed, and 1 forced fumble.

So how is it that Black takes all the abuse he has for “not producing” when his production at his position is better than all the best Sams in the history of Sams playing the T-2 in Tampa history? For one thing, many fans don’t know the true value and role of the Sam in this defense.

For comparison’s sake, Black per game averages of 5.5 tackles, .18 sacks, .09 INTs, .27 passes defensed, and .09 forced forced fumbles are the best single season numbers of any player that played the Sam for Tampa during the T-2 era (and no, Jeff Gooch’s and Rufus Porter’s numbers really pale in comparison).

My point with Black is, don’t rely on his pedestrian numbers to make your assumption about his ability. The Sam in the T-2 ALWAYS has worse numbers than the Mike and Will… compare his numbers to other Sams and you will see he is very competent. What I think Black needs is more of an opportunity to exhibit his talents… meaning a move to Mike or Sam might allow Black to really exhibit all of his extraordinary tools (speed, strength, quickness) he has to excel. Don’t undervalue Quincy Black.

Why would the Bucs waste the time (having Ruud play instead of somebody younger and with more potential) and the money to come back for one season?

I’m 100% certain the Bucs can finish in the bottom 5 in run defense with or WITHOUT Ruud. We’ve done it the past two season WITH Ruud, it can’t get any worse without him. Besides that, everybody wants to point to the fact that Ruud calls the defensive signals….sorry Barrett, there is no correct call for the D when they’re only lining up with 10 capable defenders! Let him walk, there are several potential upgrades already on the roster (Black, McKenzie, Hayward, Foster). Those guys can’t do much worse, but they have a definite shot of being a lot better.

I think Adam Hayward is better than all of them. He’s the one I’d try to keep, and lays more wood than all the others combined in his very few appearances. He is stronger and faster than all but Quincy Black and that is close. He also has the ability to shed blocks.

The simple fact of the matter is that there isn’t enough space for everyone. The NFL has a roster limit, and since new guys are brought in each year, that means existing players get the boot.

The Bucs are in a great position cap-wise. They are in a horrible position roster space-wise. Why?

Because some really good players are developing. That means we need to keep them, and the older vets will be where most of the cuts are made.

I see us keeping Jeseph (at least I hope we do). I also think we will keep Ruud…IF he agrees to 3 years or less.

As far as choosing between Black and Caddy…I think we might lose them both. Black can play mutiple positions…so he has a chance to stay (a slight one).

But I do think a RB will be released…either Caddy or Graham…to make room for Tiki Barber for one year. Yes…I said it. I’m not saying I agree with the move, but I think the Bucs are the most likely place for him to end up. This is Ronde’s last year, and the Bucs know the two brothers always wanted to play together…this is their last chance.

Assuming the Bucs plan to go after a RB in next years draft, they can afford to get Tiki for a year. And Caddy is a deadend for the team anyway. He contributes, yes…but he is not a long term answer now. Neither is Tiki, but just the same, I think Tiki will get a shot at the Bucs this year.

I’m not certain on any of it…I just have a feeling.

Whatever the case, we have riikies to sign and a ton of good players taking up space. SOMEONE has to go, and it won’t be the proven new generation of players.

Thomas, yes, I’m a sheep because obviously I’m following the herd here… oh wait, perhaps you don’t know how to use that expression… obviously, you are the sheep… saying and supporting what everybody else obviously thinks. A sheep is a follower, considering I am going against the grain, I cannot be a “sheep”….

Regardless, maintaining gap integrity is a matter of your opinion, if he was not doing that well, Morris would have had no problem pulling Black like he did to other players that didn’t perform. Then you go on to say that other players were more active…. based on what? Activity would mean that the guys are making plays, and as the Black’s numbers surely show, even to the sheep, that Black was far more active.. Could Black have done better? Absolutely, but I also recall tons of plays Derrick Brooks and John Lynch could have done better, nobody is perfect on every play. Your dislike for the most “active” Sam LB for the Bucs in the past 15 years is clouding your judgment. And BTW, Black’s per game averages still beat Nece’s from his best season, hands down.

July 4th, 2011 at 3:11 pm
Why would the Bucs waste the time (having Ruud play instead of somebody younger and with more potential) and the money to come back for one season?

I’m 100% certain the Bucs can finish in the bottom 5 in run defense with or WITHOUT Ruud. We’ve done it the past two season WITH Ruud, it can’t get any worse without him. Besides that, everybody wants to point to the fact that Ruud calls the defensive signals….sorry Barrett, there is no correct call for the D when they’re only lining up with 10 capable defenders! Let him walk, there are several potential upgrades already on the roster (Black, McKenzie, Hayward, Foster). Those guys can’t do much worse, but they have a definite shot of being a lot better.

You are forgetting one key element…the new defensive line. If they do their jobs, Ruud will not have to stop the run as badly.

And you are wrong that others cannot do worse. You ever hear the phrase “The grass is always greener on the other side?” Ruud is a good MLB in certain situations. He’s not great, but he’s good.

He’s also one of the few veteran leaders left on the team…and he’s great at that. If you plug in a rookie or such, it will take years for him to develop. If you start prepping someone to step in when they are ready, we can cut Ruud when needed.

All the hype behind Foster is just that…hype. He is new to the NFL, and MLB is not a position you want a rookie to start at. Until he at least learns the system and gets playing time behind him to prove he is good, he should not start.

The exception to this is if he lights it up in Training Camp. However, there is a chance we won’t have a TC so the Bucs will need Ruud.

They won’t be plugging in Black, McKenzie, or Hayward because Foster is the planned heir…and the Bucs won’t want the hassle of replacing one of those guys later.

If Foster is indeed the heir apparent then I would rather see him go in there and make his rookie mistakes (being overaggressive, picking the wrong gap, using bad technique) than watch Ruud make the same errors he makes on a play-to-play basis (being too reactionary instead of reading the play and meeting the runner in the hole, taking bad angles, finding ways to get himself blocked, not getting off blocks, etc). By the end of the season, Foster will have likely improved, while Ruud would still be making the same unacceptable mistakes he always makes. What’s funny about Ruud, is that he is far better in coverage than against the run, despite his physical limitations.

As for Foster learning the defense and making the right calls… you do have a point… but don’t forget, the Mikes all have the radio receiver in their ear and it would help anybody get the call right. It’s a big advantage for the new technology.

Black is above average and unless the Bucs can get a definite upgrade to him he WILL be re-signed. Without a doubt. However, I would not be surprised in the least if Dominik signs one of the top OLB’s in the short free agency period probably later this month. If he lands one look for Black to be allowed to sign elsewhere. If not, though, you can bet he gets a new contract here.

We need to keep Joseph, Cadillac, Ruud, and Black. All of those guys contribute to the team in someway.

I voted Joseph not Asomougha but I don’t think we should rule out signing him at all. Even if Talib comes back this year, it may be for only ONE year guys and then he could be in the slammer for 20 years. But even if he does come back for good, we’re going to probably need another CB when Barber retires. That’s where Nnamdi comes in. He and Talib can start, and Biggers and Lewis can provide quality depth

I’d love to see Dominik make a splash signing or two in free agency, which I think is entirely possible this year. My top choice would be signing Tulloch to be the MLB and letting Ruud sign elsewhere. Tulloch is a stud in every facet of the game and is only 26. Yes, it will take a big contract to land him but would it really be more than what Ruud will likely ask for? If so it won’t be by much.

This happens rarely, but Thomas is absolutely right about Black. The first ten games this season, Raheem ran the the defense as a showcase for Black. He was our designated rusher- even to the detriment of McCoys development. Black shows unusual speed and strength. Buuut. He doesn’t use them. Even Raheem was sit back by how badly Black disappeared when featured. If anyone – ANYONE touched him with a block- he was done. They moved McCoy to DE to tie up the tackle, but even a 210 lb lil running back would stone wall him. Huge failed experiment . Enter our new Sam – hello mr. Foster!

@ Brandon – You wrote: “I’m not sure if Joe understands the role of the Sam LB in the Tampa-2. He believes big numbers are the only way to show true value, obviously failing to remember that Al Singleton and Shelton Quarles NEVER put up big numbers as the Sam in the T-2.”

First, the rules around here state you don’t get to say what Joe believes unless Joe says it. In other words, you can’t misrepresent Joe. Of course, Joe knows that big numbers don’t necessarily showcase value.

Second, the Bucs don’t play the Tampa-2 of old, so your comparisons are out the window.

Third, it’s funny that you blast Joe for not understanding the defense, yet you are ready to drive Ruud out of town, and many knowledgable ex-NFL players and coaches consider Ruud an excellent performer in his role. …Time will tell for a lot of people on Ruud to be sure.

Lastly, part of Joe’s point, if you read the post thoroughly, is Black’s durability has to come into question, in addition to the success of the team with him out of the lineup.

I can’t wait until all this crap sorts itself out (hopefully) in the next month. I’m ready to move onward and upward, with these free agents or without them. Either way, I think we’re going to have an awesome team.

Solid argument joe in response to brandon’s nonsense. Also, I could live with working Foster into the Sam linebacker position – I dont expect any dropoff from quincy “jane” black. Geno is young but very undisciplined, I expect Dekoda to be a better more solid pro.

This is the only rebuttal Joe offered: “Second, the Bucs don’t play the Tampa-2 of old, so your comparisons are out the window.”… and that’s not true. The coverages and the propensity to play man coverage are the major differences between this version of the Tampa-2 and the old ones. The LB and DL play is pretty much the same… one-gap up front with each player assigned a gap and having designated responsibilities.

Thomas, Joe could have said anything he wanted, even if it had nothing to do with Black’s football ability, like in parts 1, 3, and 4 and you would have agreed with it. That’s fine. I don’t expect you to understand. You were probably one of those that thought Paris Warren would be an All-Pro or that we needed to draft a LT for the past 4 years despite having Donald Penn. Believe what you want.

Joe, this is what you said about Black, “Black started just 10 games last year and was off the field for some of the Bucs’ best defensive efforts. He’s not a standout in pass coverage, and the run defense has been woeful in the two years Black has been starting. And Joe keeps coming back to Mark Dominik paying Angelo Crowell handsomely in free agency to play Black’s position in 2009.”

Never in there was a question about his durability, just saying his run defense “has been woeful”. And if his durability has come into question because he broke his arm and missed the first 4 games of his 4-year career due to injury, why is that? It was a freak accident, and has not suffered any other significant injuries in the past, how does that raise a question about his durability?

Thomas im not as well spoken as you i am not a coach but I would love to hear you explain how the d-line is responsible for Ruud not laying a solid hit on a running back that breaks out of the backfield and not responsible for Black not being able to get to the QB?When I played football the rush came in from a linebacker because the d-line took up all the blockers,but im getting it if Mccoy would have done a better job than Ruud would have been hitting harder,he would have had more interceptions,because that is his specialty,he would have had more violent hits,that damn Mccoy!I dont hear Mr.Brooks saying anything bad about any of our linebackers,I think you want Ruud here because he will not be physical just so Morris can fail.I dont know who will be here but Watson,Mackenzie, hayes, foster,Black ,Hayward are here and preparing to make violent statements.I dont know about rookie mlbs. not doing well but I seem to remember Mayo Willis Beason and quite a few others doing fine,Ronde says Mackenzie is just like a coach and if I recall played very physical despite Mccoy but you only quote someone if it benifits you nonesense,W.T.F is so great about Ruud?

Capt. Tim, did you read Steve White’s articles where he was begging for Rah to not use Black as a pass rusher, but use him as a blitzer instead? Yeah, there is a huge difference between the two even though getting to the QB is the ultimate goal. Q.Black, a guy that has been a safety/MLB hybrid in College cannot magically develop pass rush moves and beat NFL RTs, be he can certainly blitz the QB and disrupt passing which he did in the minimal times he was used as a blitzer.

Jonny, Black is should not be completely without pass rush moves. Though I agree with you about perhaps he should be blitzed more and not that line-up on the line-of-scrimmage two-point stance rush from the 3-3 that we’ve seen, but Black played DE in junior college..so he shouldn’t be that bad at it. That being said, most successful blitzes come from the element of surprise, and it isn’t very surprising to see Black come when he lines up directly next to one of the DEs from a two-point blitzing stance.

Personally, I feel that a player with Black’s speed, athleticism, and striking ability, he needs to be given more freedom to escape the fray at the LOS and use his speed to shoot gaps and make plays sideline to sideline, not battle the TE play-after-play trying to keep the action inside of him for the MLB and WLB to make the plays.

M. Wesley, good point but you forgot about Urlacher and Ray Lewis starting at MLB as rookies and doing well also. WIthout as much offseason contact it may be extremely hard for any rookie to start this season… but if the problem is getting the defense in the right play, the helmet headset has pretty much eliminated that problem.

Coach Morris left Black in a position of facing either the FB or the RB. In the NFL, that’s considered a free run. Black got stopped EVERY TIME. Everyone expected Black to succeed in that role. His inability to beat ANY block may be the biggest disappointment of last season. Because they build the pas rush for him to be free. They really thought he’d get 15 sacks.

That’s why you draft great players, not great stats. He looks the part, but Thomas is right. It’s Quincy Jane Black. Brought new meaning to the word soft last year. Foster is an angry young man. He’ll fix that problem.

Black not making sacks when he is put in position too is about the same as Ruud always in the secondary because he is in a position too make interception but we were burnt by tightends and just like Black didnt make sacks Ruud didnt make ints.and Black does shed blocks better than Ruud but than again Ruud is a diffrent kind of middlelinebacker that shouldnt have to fight through blocks ,shouldnt have to make violent hits shouldnt make interceptions.Like I said before if he was a quarterback he would pass for 5000 yards a season with 2 touchdowns 20 ints and Thomas and a few others would just look at the yards.

It’s all about their assignments, Mike. Ruud plays a zone, Black plays a gap. Black was the designated blitzer, and didn’t get it done. Ruud is a zone pass defender, and shut down the tightened and RBs in the middle crossing zone. Our MLB can’t lay crushing hits on anyone, because if he misses, it 6 points. Gotta wrap’em up.

But we aren’t gonna agree on this one, Mike, so we’ll see what happens when they leave.

Capt.Tim,you are right we never will om that one but lockout should be over by Aug.and I wil be in Williamsburg at Bush Garden Europe with the kids would love to have a drink with you on me to soften the blow when he leaves