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Friday, January 6, 2012

Atheism’s Obsession With Religion

Some atheists are curious about other religions, like myself, and we learn about other views of the world. I wish I had a personal reason, but it’s almost intangible.

Perhaps at first it was out of some belief that maybe other religions are true, and there are undoubtedly people for whom atheism or agnosticism is an intermediary between religions. This wasn’t the case for me, however, and my fascination with even long dead faiths and cults can no longer be honestly seen as a pursuit for a religion to join by even the most cynical observer. If you honestly think I read Norse mythology because I am giving Odin a shot at being my God, you don’t know me very well.

I’m just curious, and I see religion as a very important piece in the puzzle of understanding history, and by extension, people.

If religion only lived in books, I would be little more than a scholar of literature. However, religion permeates the real world. Laws are written today based on commandments supposedly handed down to mankind from a desert God thousands of years ago. Elections are decided based on the religious views of candidates. Religion isn’t exactly small potatoes in the world today. Considering that politics is also a passion of mine, religion gets double-duty in my head, once as literature, again as a geopolitical agent on the world stage.

But this doesn’t get to the heart of a common complaint among theists, which is embodied in a quote by Heywood Broun, “Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God.” Why is this?

It’s tough to say. I’ll breeze over the fact that not all atheists do this, and instead focus on the very true observation that some, or perhaps even many, do.

I know that personally, I was most hostile towards religion initially after I stopped being religious. This was largely because of building stress caused by the fact that I didn’t want anything to do with religion, and yet it kept being forced on me by others. Not in some abstract sense, but in the very real sense that my mother made me go through with rituals I opposed and to church services, not to mention that I went to a private Catholic high school where religion was a required subject every year.

But that wasn’t an issue anymore when I went off to college. For some atheists, when religion has stopped being a persistent intruder in one’s life, the hostility either dies down or disappears completely (though in some cultures, this may never happen). So, that explains some behavior, but there’s still people not in such a situation who are quite hostile towards religion.

In some ways, it’s when a person starts looking outside themselves (i.e. matures) that there is a new source of rage. If I was an egotist, I suppose I would have no hard feelings for religion at this point. I’m a straight man… the Bible doesn’t stand in my way. I’m at the top of the religiously established hierarchy, so who gives a shit, right?

Call me nuts, but I don’t sit well knowing people are treated unfairly, even if it isn’t me.

While I don’t know that I ever would have used this terminology otherwise (this is all thanks to you, Mike), some atheists essentially see themselves as religion police. I never explicitly thought of it this way before, but it rings with an uncanny aptness I cannot surpass.

There genuinely are few people out there keeping religion in check, and they are primarily non-atheists. Religions are critical of each other on a level I would say is far more vicious, but the incidents are not as common as might occur from atheists, and there’s a reason.

Atheists live in a world of religious people, and it sucks. If you are of the majority religion in many places (including America), you may think nothing of how religion saturates the culture… until someone else’s religion seems to impose. There aren’t many atheists or religious minorities in the US, and even fewer of them hold positions of power, let alone flex any political might. Because criticism is often reactionary, the most common complaints will be reactions that come against those who are in the majority, because it is the majority viewpoint which will inevitably be the most pervasive. Atheists are the largest non-Christian group in the US, so it will therefore most often come from them.

However, because the majority is a large group, and inevitably diverse, the most hostile responses (as a mere consequence of demographic probability) will often come from extremists in the majority reacting to minority encroachment (or even internally, as many Christian extremists reserve their most cruel words for fellow Christians they disagree with).

And it’s a strange system that feeds itself. Those in the minority complain about something, which angers extremists in the majority and causes them to react, which pisses off those in the minority… and it just goes back and forth, to the point where the “blame” becomes a matter of determining whether the chicken or the egg came first.

Among atheists, there are even just horrible people. There’s not much use in trying to explain someone like Stalin or Mao, and it’s a damn shame to try to excuse them. Being an atheist doesn’t magically make anyone a better person, anymore than atheism can make someone a worse person. Some atheists are just rotten people, and they’ll do anything from spending their time spitting vitriol at religion to burning down churches. There’s no sense in denying it: some atheists are just vile.

I don’t know if I have the answer as to why some people like to be bullies. I like to bully certain people, generally when I perceive them to be a bully. I suppose it’s similar to a bully who likes to pick on weak people or stupid people or whatever target they choose. There is perhaps some rationalized justification (I tell myself it’s okay to be mean to people who I perceive as being mean, for example), but there may as well be any other motive, from getting a kick out of bothering others to just wanting attention.

The reasons for why an atheist would lash out at religion are just going to be highly personal, and perhaps too numerous to catalog completely. There’s probably some who have even taken their cues from religion itself. Christianity is known for encouraging the spread of “the truth” to others, and there’s no reason a person raised as a Christian would abandon every last vestige of what they were taught as children.

Christians have this mentality which is instilled early on that you are helping someone by professing your faith to them. One way it was put to me many times (both before and after being an atheist), is that a Christian proselytizing is like someone who sees another person in the road about to be hit by a car. You would urgently try to save them. This is the justification given for evangelism: it’s for the good of others. Most atheists who try to convince someone to abandon their religion wouldn’t see things any differently.

Indeed, I have felt like I was saved by atheism, that I am a born-again heathen. There is a clear demarcation in my attitude and outlook between when I was a believer and when I became a non-believer, and I would like to share that with others, but personally, I think it’s not something I can make someone feel… they have to allow themselves to feel it on their own. It almost sounds eerily familiar to what some Christians might say, but I would like to imagine it’s a universal outlook, that all those who feel they have the answer wish to share it with others so they can have it.

I might also consider the opposing view… why are Christians so obsessed with homosexuality? I personally am not of the opinion that every Christian who harps on the evils of homosexuality is actually in the closet, but there are those who believe this, and there have even been individuals for whom this is has turned out to be true. However, I know that what’s actually happening is usually much more simple than mere self-loathing: Christians who oppose homosexuality are generally not secretly gay, they just want to stop people from doing something they believe is wrong. It is likewise with many atheists regarding religion, atheists do not secretly love religion, they explicitly do not like it and find it harmful.

Perhaps it is merely that what we most oppose is something we also see as the cause of many other problems. Capitalists always gripe about unions, while socialists constantly complain about corporations. Republicans harp on liberals, and Democrats rail against conservatives. The old malign the younger generations, while the youth mock the elderly. Inside many of us, there must simply be a need that goes beyond just being, which instead seeks to also change others and the way they do things in a way that we perceive to be better.

Personally, I think it’s a small price to pay to be bothered by others to know that we have come so far. Even among the religious in America, so much progress has been made. We aren’t burning witches anymore, we don’t torture people to force them to convert, we keep the religious violence to a minimum. None of this could have happened if people were just left alone to do their own thing. It took the efforts of people seeking to improve things, and it required some people being dragged, kicking and screaming, towards progress.

All this because we kept our eyes not only on what we ourselves were doing, but also on others. We achieved all that we achieved not as atheists, or as Christians, but together, as a whole, and when some of us fail to get it and refuse to move ahead, we’re all held back. We rise and fall as one, because nothing any of us does happens in a vacuum. We are interconnected, and I believe it’s for the better far more than it’s for the worse, even if it means sometimes being irritated by someone shoving their ideas in my face.

46 comments:

One thing about being atheist, the world becomes very black and white, no shades of grey. Believing in a god leaves lots of room for interpretation. Not believing in a god makes things pretty decisive. Could be why so many atheist talk about god, or the lack of one. Gotta have something to talk about besides politics and football!

"The reasons for why an atheist would lash out at religion are just going to be highly personal"

Bullshit. Religion is politics, and religionists are contintually trying to enact repression like this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/new-hampshires-2012-anti-evolution-legislation-and-the-shocking-thing-a-sponsor-said/2012/01/02/gIQAbmOudP_blog.html

That's why atheists "lash out". Because religion is trying to impose its fantansies on us. When that stops, you'll find the "obsession" evaporates. Ignoring that reality is a cheap rhetorical tactic.

Experiencing an argument or oppositional opinion as "bitching" may be a hangover from religionist thinking. You should try to cut it out and engage with the concepts rather than what you imagine to be the person.

I know before typing that I shouldn't be getting into the middle of this one Ginx. There are extremists on both sides and it looks like you've uncovered a few. Atheists complain about the undo influence of Theism on government and society while Theists counter with creationism not being allowed to be taught in schools. They're both right.

These aren't Atheist extremists... they're just desperate to play the victim card. I've gotten extremists before. They don't leave their comment publicly, they send an e-mail telling me all the ways they wish I would die. These guys aren't even bullies, they just get their rocks off imagining they're being bullied.

I am a Christian and love reading your blog. We're generally told to avoid non-Christian influence, lest we lose our way and perish, but I think that overlooks the fact that we're all human and relate to one another regardless of our religious beliefs. I enjoy a glimpse into "the other side," simply put. I am not as thoroughly researched in atheism as you seem to be in other religions, but I was surprised by the dissension in rorschach's post. I suppose my assumption about atheist unity is as ignorant as believing Christians are unified. In any case, I think this was a wonderful post and touched on a lot of truths about Christians and, I'm assuming by your honest and straightforward writing style, atheists.

interesting post. unfortnately, there are some people who also hide behind atheism to promote their islamophobic and anti-semitic views. how telling then that these are the very people who criticize u on their own blogs - rorschmuck via 'furious purpose' n' tis himself for instance. says it all.

Atheist extremists drink beer in pubs and read books. Your assertion that atheists commit acts of violence is false. Atheists don't play any victim card because they have no need to do so, since they are, you know, victims. In the USA for example, of social shunning, or of being unable to be elected to any public office beyond dog catcher. You may choose to call the fact that atheists are not content with this and are vocal in their opposition to this oppression "bitching", but this says more about you than it does about us.Please educate yourself.

Yes, I am actually a God-loving Christian who has posted hundreds of essays supporting atheism. My sinister plot to ingratiate myself in the atheist online community has culminated in this attack on atheists...

What drivel do you disagree with? All you mentioned was a weak attempt to claim Stalin wasn't an atheist (he most certainly was). If you disagree with something, I'm open to listening to specific criticism. I'm even open to you just being snide, especially in Latin.

BA:"Some atheists, like myself, are curious about other religions[*] and we learn about other views of the world."

1. {fixed grammar *}

2. I would almost go so far as to say that curiosity is a defining characteristic of atheists. We don't just accept the hand-me-down straight-jackets of religion.

3. There is the whole discussion of "other ways of knowing" implicit in the statement you make here. Must we really take into consideration a non-scientific view of the world (such as a religious view, ID, superstition ...)? I am only aware of one reality based view.

BA:""I wish I had a personal reason, but it’s almost intangible." You do and you stated it: "curiousity". I do not understand what you mean by "almost intangible.""atheism ... is an intermediary between religions." To me this seems like a crazy idea. Once you understand that there are no gods, you understand it. Why on earth would one regress back to never-never land? When you stop beating your head against one wall, why beat it against another?

You fully realise what a bunch of bullshit the fables about Wotan are. Why is jeebus or mohammad any different? Would you suddenly start believing in Wotan tomorrow? If you have privileged one bullshit story above another, then you still don't get it.

I didn't elaborate on it, but the term "curiosity" didn't fully encompass this. There's more I would go into regarding why I continue to learn about religion itself, rather than focusing on every bad thing religious people have ever done (which appears to be a preoccupation of some atheists... which is a fact, not a judgment).

And if you're going to grammar Nazi me, at least spell "curiosity" correctly. I might say it's ironic, but that doesn't quite encapsulate it... the hypocrisy is almost intangible (almost, but I think with my apt description, it can be adequately tanged...).

To me this seems like a crazy idea. Once you understand that there are no gods, you understand it. Why on earth would one regress back to never-never land? When you stop beating your head against one wall, why beat it against another?

Okay, but not everyone is you... but welcome aboard the never-gonna-join-a-religion train with me. Sorry about the smell.

Some people reject their religion, not God. Some people genuinely do want to keep looking for a religion they can relate to. I'm personally not one of them, but I wanted to include those atheists I have met who are, for example, "spiritual." I can mention someone like this who isn't exactly like me without being rude and saying, "Those idiots."

You fully realise what a bunch of bullshit the fables about Wotan are. Why is jeebus or mohammad any different? Would you suddenly start believing in Wotan tomorrow? If you have privileged one bullshit story above another, then you still don't get it.

Odin is cooler than Jesus and Mohammed's gay lovechild. I'll sacrifice a chicken tonight to save you from tasting Gungnir's wrath. You're welcome.

I know what you're thinking... who is Jesus and Mohammed's lovechild? It was L. Ron Hubbard. Did I just blow your mind? Okay, fair enough... well, you probably didn't laugh either, but one thing is true: you read it, and you can't unread it.

Seriously though, who are we? What can we accomplish? Even if you or I do amazing things, and I sincerely hope you achieve everything you ever wanted, we will more than likely be forgotten before Odin, Jesus and Mohammed. Think about that... Odin didn't even exist, but his legacy is more secure than yours or mine.

"While I don’t know that I ever would have used this terminology otherwise (this is all thanks to you, Mike), some atheists essentially see themselves as religion police."

Who? Which atheists? You're being terribly non-specific, here.

What atheist has the power to police religion? Being critical isn't policing, you know.

"The reasons for why an atheist would lash out at religion are just going to be highly personal, and perhaps too numerous to catalog completely."

Where is your evidence for this? When an atheist blogger points out, let's say, the child abuse perpetuated by the Catholic Church, it isn't outrage at the institutionalized abuse, but personal? Have you really thought this through?

You're trivializing (and making unwarranted assumptions) about other atheists and our goals and motivations.

"Christians have this mentality which is instilled early on that you are helping someone by professing your faith to them."

Once again, assumption. You're assuming that we were all raised Christian; we weren't.

"It is likewise with many atheists regarding religion, atheists do not secretly love religion, they explicitly do not like it and find it harmful."

"Personally, I think it’s a small price to pay to be bothered by others to know that we have come so far. Even among the religious in America, so much progress has been made. We aren’t burning witches anymore, we don’t torture people to force them to convert, we keep the religious violence to a minimum. None of this could have happened if people were just left alone to do their own thing."

You've just contradicted your entire argument right here. We aren't burning witches or torturing people because religions power has been slowly reigned in, not because they willing it up.

BA:"This wasn’t the case for me"Which is good to hear for the reasons given.

BA:"Norse Mythology...understanding history, and by extension, people." We do not have to prove gods false, only show how they came to be.

BA:If religion only lived in books,...yadda ... on the world stage. TL;DR: "Religion poisons everything." Ok, we got that part already.

BA: "common complaint among theists" This does not scan. Can you demonstrate this. Or did you mean "against atheists"?

BA:“Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. Why is this?” (Actually "gods", any gods - they are all equally false.) This is a common christian claim. I don't know if it is true. I guess most christians don't think about their gods all the time. Or even very much at all. Aside from compulsive godfapping, they only bring it up when they need to justify their behaviour. Those suffering from the consequences of their fucked up behaviour (gay marriage anyone?) would likely think about their shit more than they themselves do. That would certainly not only be atheists but everyone that their god hates.

BA:"not all atheists do this" A lot of people don't speak out about the iniquity in the world. Your point is? (Also look up "Stockholm Syndrome" - this is a common problem with people suffering discrimination and abuse.)

BA: "I was most hostile towards religion initially after I stopped being religious." Because you had not yet rationalised the shit that you where put through? And hey, it is not just about you personally. A lot of people in the world suffer incredibly through the imposition of religion. Are you telling me you don't become very, very angry or upset at the suffering of others for whatever reason?

BA: "I don’t sit well knowing people are treated unfairly, even if it isn’t me." Well good, wtf is your point then? Religion is iniquitous by its very nature. Get angry!

BA:"some atheists essentially see themselves as religion police. I never explicitly thought of it this way before, but it rings with an uncanny aptness I cannot surpass." Religion police? What in Phoenicia's (PBUH) name does that even mean? Are you stoned? I, for one, don't want to "police" religion. I want it hacked out of society roots and all. When the religions currently plaguing humanity have been reduced to the status of Wotan/Odin or the Easter Bunny, I will be happy. I don't want to fucking police anything.

BA:"There genuinely are few people out there keeping religion in check, and they are primarily non-atheists." Bullshit. The real problem is the belief in superstitious bunkum - the form it takes is of little consequence. Like a weed, it will keep coming back in one form or another. One weed overgrowing another does not help us. We can at least try and keep the garden of reality as pristine as possible.

BA:"...Because criticism is often reactionary..." Well, then call us "reactionary". Do you think it is normal and progressive that, to return to our example, gays are denied marriage by 'Merkin xtian assholes? They are the one's being reactionary in fighting against peoples' basic human rights. Your thinking is arse about face.

BA: "Atheists ... so it will therefore most often come from them.[my emphasis]"Surely you mean "us"?

BA: "extremists in the majority reacting to minority encroachment" Don't you mean "the extremist majority reacting"? Since when does a frontal assault on basic human decency come across as normal. Denying others their basic human rights IS extreme. (Or are you holding your big words in reserve for "special" occassions?) That something is widespread does not make it correct. Religious ideas are pernicious - all the more that they are conventional.

BA:"And it’s a strange system that feeds itself."

Again: Yeah sure, let us all just lie down and let those people walk right over us. That is bound to fix it.

BA:"the “blame” becomes a matter of determining whether the chicken or the egg came first."This is the biggest blogturd I have ever seen in my life. Clean it up for fucks sakes. (I leave at as an exercise for you to work out for yourself what an incredibly naive thing this is to say.)

Ah, but I think you misunderstand my meaning. I'm not saying atheists need to learn about other gods to prove them wrong. Rather, a god does not need to exist in order it to impact the real world. Besides, understanding religion isn't about god at all, it's about understanding people.

(Actually "gods", any gods - they are all equally false.)

I didn't write the quote... which is why it was attributed to someone else. I could just as easily have said "No one speaks about religion more than atheists, televangelists, and Republican candidates." - Ginx, but I know a decent quote existed. Thanks for motivating me to clarify my view, I guess.

Because you had not yet rationalised the shit that you where put through? And hey, it is not just about you personally. A lot of people in the world suffer incredibly through the imposition of religion. Are you telling me you don't become very, very angry or upset at the suffering of others for whatever reason?

You clearly did not read my post, did you?

Well good, wtf is your point then? Religion is iniquitous by its very nature. Get angry!

I don't respond well to someone telling me to be angry about something, or to fear it. You clearly don't know anything about me, and the main thing I see from your words here is that you are looking to bitch. You appear to be a contrarian, and a miserable one at that. That must suck.

Religion police? What in Phoenicia's (PBUH) name does that even mean? Are you stoned? I, for one, don't want to "police" religion. I want it hacked out of society roots and all. When the religions currently plaguing humanity have been reduced to the status of Wotan/Odin or the Easter Bunny, I will be happy. I don't want to fucking police anything.

Of course not, you're not one of the atheists who wants to police religion (remember... it's not all about you...). You're more likely one of the vile one, certainly a bitter one. Though thanks for illustrating how being an atheist doesn't necessarily make you a good person.

The rest is just more of the same angry stuff I skipped over. I'm sure if you come back and read this stuff in a few months, you'll laugh at yourself here.

Audley: Feel free to make your correction and repost it in whole. If you delete the old ones, I'll sweep them away and your correct post can stand alone (and this message will go). Otherwise, I'll look at it again mid-day.

Maybe feel free to rethink some of what you accuse me of, as well. You really bent over backwards to find something to criticize me on. Look for key words like "all," which you use and I don't.

@ BA: No need to quotemine: "I want it hacked out of society roots and all. When the religions currently plaguing humanity have been reduced to the status of Wotan/Odin or the Easter Bunny, I will be happy."

Do you have some institutionalised role for religion in mind? Would that be a good thing? I certainly do not think so.

Also learn to differentiate between "the religious" and "religions". It is the power of the latter that I would gladly see expunged.

"Some atheists are just rotten people, and they’ll do anything from spending their time spitting vitriol at religion to burning down churches."

Where is your evidence that any atheist has burned down a church because they hate religion so much? One would think that the news would positively blow up if such a hate crime occurred or (at the very least) there'd be information from the Southern Poverty Law Center.

You're making assumptions about "some" atheists without naming names or backing your information up. All I'm asking for in something a little more concrete than your unreferenced blog post.

Jesus, Audley... I said "I must be a fortune teller" because there was a convenient quote in this very thread showing someone wanting to stamp out religion. Damn, you are dense.

Who has said this? Who has claimed that we need religion police?

I did, you dipshit, and anyone who fights to keep the actions of religious people acting out their faith on others is living that very idea.

Where is your evidence that any atheist has burned down a church because they hate religion so much?

Do you not study world history? Besides the two Texas arsonists in 2010 which atheists have tried desperately to claim are not atheists (I don't know, personally), there have been systematic attacks on religious places of worship and religious practitioners in nations like Russia and China.

An atheist is perfectly capable of doing any number of horrible things. If you believe being an atheist makes you a better person, you are a fool.

Oh, theophontes quote, yes. Never mind that you quote-mined it... here's the end, in case you missed it:

"When the religions currently plaguing humanity have been reduced to the status of Wotan/Odin or the Easter Bunny, I will be happy. I don't want to fucking police anything."

Nobody's suppressing the belief in Odin or the Easter Bunny, they're just seen as what they are: mythologies. That's what all religion should eventually come to.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?

"... anyone who fights to keep the actions of religious people acting out their faith on others is living that very idea."

And you haven't provided examples of atheists actually doing this. Currently, religion is being violently suppressed by other religions (see: Egypt, Nigeria, etc.).

If you're talking about totalitarian regimes, religion isn't suppressed because of some lofty atheist goal, but rather as a way to further control the population.

There is a difference, you know.

"Besides the two Texas arsonists in 2010 which atheists have tried desperately to claim are not atheists (I don't know, personally)"

So, you're pointing to evidence that you're not even sure makes your point? And you call me a dipshit?

Since you are apparently incapable of doing a simple Google search, here's what I found on the Texas arsons: One of the two suspects had a book on atheism and some books on demon possession.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/headlines/20100224-Atheist-books-guns-found-at-8793.ece (I searched SPLCenter.org for any information, but was unable to find anything.)

On my bookshelf, you'd find both "atheist books" and a couple of bibles and a koran. Can you reliably tell what my views are based solely on that information?

"there have been systematic attacks on religious places of worship and religious practitioners in nations like Russia and China."

Are we talking historically or contemporary? State sponsored or hate crimes/terrorism? As I said before, controlling religion (whether forcing a particular form of worship or making worship illegal) is a way to control the population; it has nothing to do with atheism in-and-of itself.

Bret, I appreciate your effort. In turn, I will do the same. I will look hard at and evaluate stupid things believers do! It gives me ideas for blogging again...I've kinda been out of it for a couple weeks.