"So how exactly do whips work? I want to have a backup plan in case the GM opts not to house-rule it, which I'm 100% ok with. Whips do no damage, lethal or non-lethal according to the core book. I assume then, that the whip is used to disarm/trip.

Ok actually the book confuses me, because it states it does non-lethal, but then in the description says it does no damage to creatures with an armor bonus of +1 or natural armor bonus of +3, which i think is pretty much everything.

But when it comes to trip/disarm.

How do you trigger these effects? Do you attempt to hit, and then attempt to do your decided effect? (in short, do i need 2 feats to 1, sub my attack roll for DEX and 1 feat to sub my CMB for DEX)

Or is the attempt to disarm/trip triggered by the attack attempt.

I'm starting to think it's the former, and I don't think I'm going to be all that good at that. If that's the case, do the rules on size, etc. still take effect? (as a halfling I can pretty much only trip my party members and goblins)

EDIT: A third option I didn't think about, does it simply not take attack roll into account and do a CMB check? Potentially, this would mean that weapon finnesse not only didn't do much good, it flat out helped me in no way other than doing a magical 1 DPR :)"

The jist of it is, my character is undoubtedly the most screwed halfling I've come to know (i'm relatively new, this being my first campaign that we actually leveled to 2). The DM is being pretty lenient and nice, but I want to abide by the rules. It's not like my character is completely screwed, just in deep trouble of being so, and as such I'm trying to work with what I have. The ideal option, is to go whip. But I do not understand how it works in regards to tripping/disarming and, how you do these.

Also to ask:

How do you actually trigger the effects? Do you declare it? Or is it inherited with the attack? (Do I have to say "I'm attempting to disarm the x using my whip/I'm attempting to trip y using my whip")

Trip and Disarm are Combat Maneuvers you make as any part of your attack. You use your CMB instead of your attack bonus. What class are you playing? There are ways to make whips very effective, but the feat selection is rather important. A fighter can do it better than any class. Would you post your character build so far? This will help in steering you in the right direction.

The description of whip indicates that it does not provoke attacks of opportunity in the area it can reach, does that mean that it simply cannot trigger an AOO (in regards to the regular means of AOO, within squares next to you)

Ok actually the book confuses me, because it states it does non-lethal, but then in the description says it does no damage to creatures with an armor bonus of +1 or natural armor bonus of +3, which i think is pretty much everything.

In Table: Weapons the whip has the Special entry "nonlethal"

Nonlethal: These weapons deal nonlethal damage

Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher.

Putting these together, a whip deals non-lethal damage, unless the target has an armor bonus of +1 or natural armor +3, in which case it deals no damage at all.

You decide what you want to do. Lets say you want to Trip. You then perform a Trip combat maneuver. Take an appropriate action (attack action or full-attack action, generally) and then perform a combat maneuver check. This is an attack roll that replaces your normal attack bonus with your CMB.

Weapon Finesse will allow you to use your Dexterity score in place of your Strength score on attack rolls with certain weapons. Since a trip (or Disarm, or Sunder) uses your weapon, then Weapon Finesse will apply to your CMB. Something like a Bull Rush, which doesn't use your weapon, will not benefit from Weapon Finesse. See this FAQ, this other FAQ, and the accompanying blog post for details.

KHShadowrunner wrote:

Or is the attempt to disarm/trip triggered by the attack attempt.

I'm starting to think it's the former, and I don't think I'm going to be all that good at that. If that's the case, do the rules on size, etc. still take effect? (as a halfling I can pretty much only trip my party members and goblins)

You don't get a free trip attempt with every attack, you choose what you want to do first. Either whip a guy to hurt him, or try to trip him, or try to disarm him.

There's a special size modifier to your CMB/CMD, see the Combat Maneuvers section for details.

KHShadowrunner wrote:

EDIT: A third option I didn't think about, does it simply not take attack roll into account and do a CMB check?

The combat maneuver check is an attack roll. Since you're using a weapon, any bonuses to that weapon, like the enhancement bonus from a magic whip, or weapon focus, or flanking, will apply to the combat maneuver.

KHShadowrunner wrote:

How do you actually trigger the effects? Do you declare it? Or is it inherited with the attack? (Do I have to say "I'm attempting to disarm the x using my whip/I'm attempting to trip y using my whip")

Yes, you declare what you're trying to do.

If your GM will allow it, there's a weapon in the Adventurer's Armor called the Scorpion Whip. It's identical to a whip except it deals more damage, it deals lethal instead of non-lethal damage, and it can damage creatures with armor or natural armor. It uses the same whip proficiencies and everything. It's great. Don't confuse it with the Scorpion Whip from Ultimate Combat or Ultimate Equipment, though, those ones are useless.

KHShadowrunner wrote:

In regards to Attacks of Opportunity (AOO)

The description of whip indicates that it does not provoke attacks of opportunity in the area it can reach, does that mean that it simply cannot trigger an AOO (in regards to the regular means of AOO, within squares next to you)

You provoke an AoO every time you use a whip. If someone threatens you, and you use the whip, they can try to hit you.

You also don't threaten with the whip, so if someone provokes an attack of opportunity, you can't get a free attack with the whip. (You may want to carry a spiked gauntlet or some other method of threatening, so that you can provide flanking for your team, or interrupt someone casting, etc.)

The upside is you can make an attack anywhere within the reach of the whip, you can whip someone adjacent to you, 10' away, or 15' away, unlike a normal reach weapon like a longspear that has a gap where it can't hit.

I wound up with a 3 strength because we opted (as a group) to do i think it's a variant of the Standard Dice Roll system to determine scores (We rolled 5d6 and subtracted the lowest 2) which netted me an 18, 17, 16, 12? and... a 5. Me, being relatively new to how this works, figured that since halflings already take a -2 penalty to STR, it would make more sense roleplay wise for it to be my lowest stat. So that put me at 3.

Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.

Key points:

Spoiler:

1) You deal no damage if the target has an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher.

2) You don't threaten for AoOs but you can hit targets 5', 10', or 15' away.

3) You provoke when making an attack.

4) You can use Finesse with a whip even though it isn't a light weapon.

5) Trip special: If using a Trip weapon to make a trip attack, you do not fall prone if you fail by more than 10 points.

6) Nonlethal special: You do non-lethal damage with this weapon.

Relevant feats:

Spoiler:

Whip Mastery (Combat)
Your superior expertise with this weapon does not provoke attacks of opportunity from your enemies.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip), base attack bonus +2.
Benefit: You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip. You can deal lethal damage with a whip, although you can still deal nonlethal damage when you want. Further, you can deal damage with a whip despite a creature's armor bonus or natural armor bonus.
Normal: Attacking with a whip provokes attacks of opportunity as if you used a ranged weapon. A whip deals no damage to a creature that has an armor bonus of +1 or natural armor bonus of +3.

Improved Whip Mastery (Combat)
You are able to entangle opponents with the coils of your whip.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: While wielding a whip, you threaten the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet. You can also use a whip to grasp an unattended Small or Tiny object within your whip's reach and pull that object into your square. To do so, you must hit AC 10 with a melee touch attack. Further, you can use the whip to grasp onto an object within your whip's reach, using 5 feet of your whip as if it were a grappling hook, allowing you to use the rest of your whip to swing on like a rope. As a free action, you can release the object your whip is grasping, but you cannot use the whip to attack while the whip is grasping an object.

Greater Whip Mastery (Combat)
You can use a whip to make combat maneuvers with ease.
Prerequisites: Improved Whip Mastery, Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You are so quick with your whip that you never drop it due to a failed disarm or trip combat maneuver attempt. Further, you gain the ability to grapple using your whip. To do so, use the normal grapple rules with the following changes.
Attack: You cannot use your whip to attack while you are using it to grapple an opponent.
Damage: When dealing damage to your grappled opponent, you deal your whip's weapon damage rather than your unarmed strike damage.
Free Hands: You take no penalty on your combat maneuver check for having fewer than two hands free when you use your whip to grapple.
Reach: Rather than pulling your grappled opponent adjacent to you when you successfully grapple and when you move the grapple, you must keep him within your whip's reach minus his own reach to maintain the grapple. If the difference in reach is less than 0, such as is the case for a Medium whip wielder and a Gargantuan creature, you cannot grapple that opponent with your whip. If you have to pull a creature adjacent to you to grapple it with your whip, you still provoke an attack of opportunity from that opponent unless you have the Improved Grapple feat.
Tie Up: While adjacent to your opponent, you can attempt to use your whip to tie him up. If you do so to an opponent you have grappled rather than pinned, you take only a –5 penalty on the combat maneuver check rather than the normal –10.

The only real benefit of any weapon having the 'trip' special is that if you fail by more than 10 points, you don't fall prone if using a trip weapon to deliver the trip. You don't get the trip in addition to a normal attack. With Weapon Focus(whip) and Whip Mastery, you, essentially, remove most drawbacks involved with using a whip. You do lethal or non-lethal at your preference, you don't provoke, and you do damage normally even when they are sufficiently armored to void whip damage. IWM removes the last detriment, not threatening and gives some additional bonuses to boot. GWM gives further bonuses involving grappling.

You decide what you want to do. Lets say you want to Trip. You then perform a Trip combat maneuver. Take an appropriate action (attack action or full-attack action, generally) and then perform a combat maneuver check. This is an attack roll that replaces your normal attack bonus with your CMB.

Weapon Finesse will allow you to use your Dexterity score in place of your Strength score on attack rolls with certain weapons. Since a trip (or Disarm, or Sunder) uses your weapon, then Weapon Finesse will apply to your CMB. Something like a Bull Rush, which doesn't use your weapon, will not benefit from Weapon Finesse. See this FAQ, this other FAQ, and the accompanying blog post for details....

I think this nails it. I was confused because Weapon Finesse states that it ONLY applies to weapon attack rolls. And Agile Maneuvers states that it applies to CMB. It was confusing as to how Weapon Finesse works with trip/disarm weapons as if I roll my CMB, I would need to use Agile Maneuvers to use my DEX, but the FAQ mentioned indicates that that is not the case.

The rest of it makes sense, minus the AoO being taken away, but I can live with that :). Thanks.

With a 3 strength, you are sitting at a -4 to your damage, and a whip for a small creature can only do a d2, I think. Even a scorpion whip for a small creature does a d3. You could hold on to the whip as a trip-only use, but your small size will eventually make that prohibitive. I think you may want to pull out a bow or crossbow at this point if you actually want to do any damage. Your dex score will give you a decent to hit with ranged and your low strength won't modify the damage.

It's not so much that I want to do damage, the goal was to do 'something' other than sing. I was looking into a pure control/buff bard (focusing on things that disorient/confuse/disable enemies) so my thought was that since I'm basically boned on damage, disarming and tripping people would be a nice "well you're done with singing, now what" move. There's so much to learn for a new person, such as that you can trip/disarm with any weapon. I don't truly follow how that works with say, a rapier. But with the high dex adding a boost to my AC, I'm thinking I can go with a weapon, so I still provoke AoO, boost my AC to ensure that I don't get OKO'd so easily, and such and what not.

I really wish we had some of the advanced feats/spells, but we don't. And I'm ok with that. It's what to do about a character that basically can't carry anything, or actually deal any damage, and still be efficient in a relatively small party. So I'm going to trip, disarm, grease, and sleep (at level 2 at least) my way to help my buddies shoot and punch things in the face.

I would probably ask the gm if you could switch out weapon finesse with rapid reload and go with a heavy crossbow (4 lbs). That leaves you with 6 lbs before you are encumbered, which will allow you to wear padded armor.

With weapon finesse, you will hit, but you own't ever do any damage (1 damage is required on a successful hit, I think, but you want to do more than that don't you?).

Edit: Ok, damage isn't everything. I actually have a small bard in my party who is similar to you. However, you can always threaten, and give a flanking bonus to a teammate...unless you are using a whip (it doesn't threaten).

Technically, when wielding a rapier and tripping, you aren't tripping with the rapier. You are tripping with your feet, or whatever body part it takes. Same thing with disarm.

Provoke an AoO is what happens when you drop your guard, fire a ranged weapon, cast a spell, etc.

When someone provokes an AoO, anyone who threatens that person can attack them for free.

You want to have a weapon so that you threaten the squares around you, so that if someone else provokes an AoO, you can attack them.

If you're using a whip or crossbow or whatever, wearing a Spiked Gauntlet will let you threaten. It won't ever do much damage, but even 1 non-lethal (minimum damage) could interrupt a spellcaster. And more importantly, by threatening, you can provide flanking to your allies.

KHShadowrunner wrote:

So I'm going to trip, disarm, grease, and sleep (at level 2 at least) my way to help my buddies shoot and punch things in the face.

This is the way to go. Remember the casting time on sleep! And don't forget about the Aid Another action, just hit AC 10 to give a friend a +2 bonus.

Technically, when wielding a rapier and tripping, you aren't tripping with the rapier. You are tripping with your feet, or whatever body part it takes. Same thing with disarm.

Combat Maneuvers and Weapon Special Features (Blog): "Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll."

Arrr great suggestions! but now I have more questions and I think I'm stepping outside of the rules section on some of them. (such as, are spiked gauntlets actually weapons? They do not specifically say that you can hold a weapon in a hand that has a spiked gauntlet (unless it means to have it on the other hand) in which case, since my damage is always so low, why not whip/spiked gauntlet it.

And, in this case, since spiked gauntlets are considered light weapons (and therefor, qualify for Weapon Finesse), do they get the feat bonus if i use the spiked gauntlet to attempt to trip/disarm?

Oops, I forgot that a rapier is finessable. I should have written, when using a longsword you are tripping with your foot - which is why you are tripped if you fail the trip. I could have sworn there was a FAQ or a dev post that explained that, but I guess not.

Yes. All 'fist' type things are light manufactured weapons that have nothing to do with unarmed strikes. See SKR's post here.

KHShadowrunner wrote:

They do not specifically say that you can hold a weapon in a hand that has a spiked gauntlet

It doesn't specifically say so, but a spiked gauntlet works like a gauntlet, so does a locked gauntlet, which would have no function if you couldn't use a weapon in that hand. Also, many armors come with a free set of gauntlets.

KHShadowrunner wrote:

And, in this case, since spiked gauntlets are considered light weapons (and therefor, qualify for Weapon Finesse), do they get the feat bonus if i use the spiked gauntlet to attempt to trip/disarm?

Yes.

Bad Sintax wrote:

I should have written, when using a longsword you are tripping with your foot - which is why you are tripped if you fail the trip. I could have sworn there was a FAQ or a dev post that explained that, but I guess not.

I've posted it twice.

You do use a longsword to trip. That's why you get the weapon specific bonuses.

You can't drop the longsword to avoid a counter-trip because it's not a trip weapon.

I guess I might as well cover all my bases for rules. AoO allow you to make a melee action. Tripping and Disarming are considered melee actions? As such, for my AoO I am able to attempt to trip/disarm? With combat reflexes (which i think is a fighter only feat) that leads to some hilarious trippings. lol.

A melee attack, not an action. Never use the word "action" unless you really mean it. ("Attack" and "Attack action" mean very different things)

KHShadowrunner wrote:

Tripping and Disarming are considered melee actions?

You can attempt to trip (or disarm) your opponent in place of a melee attack.

Any time you are able to make an attack, you can replace that attack with a trip or disarm combat maneuver.

KHShadowrunner wrote:

As such, for my AoO I am able to attempt to trip/disarm? With combat reflexes (which i think is a fighter only feat) that leads to some hilarious trippings. lol.

Yes, but not with the whip, you need to take the AoO with a weapon you threaten with.

Combat Reflexes is a combat feat, which means a fighter can take it with one of his fighter bonus feats. Everyone else can still take it with a normal feat.

-edit- Also, remember that an AoO happens before the action that prompted it. So if you trip someone, and then they want to stand up, they provoke the AoO before they're standing, so you can't re-trip them. After the AoO resolves, then they lose the prone condition.

Keep in mind that 'melee' and 'unarmed strike' are considered different and separate things in the pathfinder system. When the combat maneuver states that you replace a 'melee' attack with a trip or disarm maneuver, that 'melee' attack means an attack with either a melee weapon, natural attack, or improved unarmed strike. When you're wielding a rapier and attempt a trip, you are tripping with the rapier. But, since it doesn't have the 'trip' special, you still fall prone if you fail by 10+ points.

But you could use it to disarm, or for the sake of not wasting the AoO, punch them with the gauntlet.

I think I have this! Now to get the DM to confirm that he's comfortable with it in our settings.

EDIT: I guess I should lump it all into one.

With a whip, I gain the ability to trip at reach (of 15). With the Spiked Gauntlet holding the whip, I can threaten the squares around me like I regularly would and re-introduce AoO for those squares. With which, during those AoOs I can trip or disarm, but in these instances if I fail with 10+ I fall prone (or for a halfing have my arm mutilated, not really but I can't not envision such a tiny thing). With the whip, if I fail, I can drop.

+aid another + all sorts of other stuff to help out. :)

If not with the spiked gauntlet, I can always put spikes on my armor and achieve basically the same effect. Plus now I can consider a shield for extra AC :)

"Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat maneuver roll. The clarification in that blog means any weapon used to trip applies these bonuses when making a trip combat maneuver, so this FAQ was updated to omit the "only trip weapons let you apply these bonuses" limitation."

With a whip, I gain the ability to trip at reach (of 15). With the Spiked Gauntlet holding the whip, I can threaten the squares around me like I regularly would and re-introduce AoO for those squares. With which, during those AoOs I can trip or disarm, but in these instances if I fail with 10+ I fall prone (or for a halfing have my arm mutilated, not really but I can't not envision such a tiny thing). With the whip, if I fail, I can drop.

I think you have it right. You only threaten adjacent squares, and can only take AoOs with the spiked gauntlet.

If you use the spiked gauntlet, your attack (or combat maneuver) will not benefit from any whip-specific bonuses. You will not be able to drop your weapon if you fail by 10+ on a trip attempt.

If you trip with any weapon, you will provoke an AoO unless you have the Improved Trip feat.

If you use the whip for ANY purpose, including tripping, you will provoke an AoO, even if you have the Improved Trip feat.

If memory serves: Adventurers' Armory is deemed obsolete. and UE is considered correct.

It's still legal in PFS, and the UC/UE version of the scorpion whip doesn't make any damn sense. You either use it exactly like a whip, or it's a normal light weapon, without the reach, or trip, or disarm abilities. Basically a performance spiked gauntlet that deals slashing.

The UE version is the UC version, it's like a normal whip with a small knife coming out of the grip. It doesn't have reach unless you use it as a whip, in which case, it works exactly like a whip, non-lethal, armor negation, etc. It's terrible.

The UE version is the UC version, it's like a normal whip with a small knife coming out of the grip. It doesn't have reach unless you use it as a whip, in which case, it works exactly like a whip, non-lethal, armor negation, etc. It's terrible.

We're doing CRB only because, despite my excitement with a crippled character, we don't want to introduce too many expansive and complicated rules to a group of fairly new (and in some cases, incredibly new) players. As well, they didn't want to 'make' people fork out the monies yet (and I say yet, because it looks like this will be a long-haul deal and we will expand into the advanced books). Unbeknownst to them that they could view it for free by simply looking.

To put it simply, we want it simple.

If I should fear bassists, but I learn to play the bass, could I knock myself unconscious willingly? ;)

I think with a Str 3 you'd knock yourself out lifting the bass! Lol. Cool to keep it simple, I sometimes forget not everyone has been playing as long as my groups. Foremost, have fun. If your stick figure halfling brings amusement to you and the group, then it doesn't matter what the stats say or what the dice rolls.

agile maneuvers feat, get it and use it. see if your GM will let you exchange it for weapon finesse. agile manuvers lets you use your DEX instead of your STR to determine your CMB (combat maneuver bonus).

re-read the rules on combat maneuvers several times to be sure you understand them (about 4/5ths of the way through the PRD 'combat' section, pages 198-201 of the CRB). disarm as a weapon quality gives a +2 bonus to CMB on disarm attempts. trip as a weapon quality allows you to drop the whip instead of being tripped on a failed trip attempt.

Instead of making an attack and doing next to no damage, you can trip or disarm enemies in place of an attack. Grappling is poor choice given your low STR. As long as you fight against baddies which can be tripped and/or disarmed you can be far more effective in combat this way than by trying to do damage.

with 3 STR damage from attacks is going to be negligible without the agile weapon enchant (which is pathfinder society rules not pathfinder core rules, can be found in the SRD, direct your GM to it and let the GM decide if they want to incorporate it).

From a role-play perspective I have conceded that bull rushing as a halfling is, while comedic, not something I can enhance with Perform: Acting or Perform: Comedy. As such, my goal in (game) life is to simply trip up and disarm as many medium or small sized things as I can.

Those actions are covered by the topic, and according to some faqs pointed out I can apply finesse to these checks as long as I actually use a weapon.

Now, when the day comes that I lose my whip, lose my gauntlet, and am toe to toe with a large creature, Well I'll grease myself up and run a lot.

Coup-de-grace does auto-hit and auto-crit plus a fort save for instant death. IIRC, if an ability does no damage due to damage reduction, associated effects don't trigger, either. So if the presence of sufficient armor triggers zero damage for the whip, then even a coup-de-grace won't do any damage and it won't proc the instant-death effect. And I'm pretty sure it would involve wrapping it around the victim's neck and giving it a good strong snap.