Wednesday, August 12, 2009

Al-Walaa Wal Baraa, Part 3: Do You Have Any Loyalty To Yourself?

The other day, I was scrutinizing the Technorati statistics for my blog post tags. I was specifically looking to see what topics my posts were weighted toward. I have my own subjective impression of that, but I've been looking for objective metrics to analyze the blog's content.

Anyhoo, I was pleased to see that my subjective assessment was more or less correct: The blog tags with the largest number of posts were the posts tagged "Wildest Dreams." The single topic with the largest number of blog posts has been about African-American women turning their Wildest Dreams into reality. The topic with the next largest number of blog posts are those tagged "Save Your Own Life." Regarding this topic, the focus has usually been on leaving physically dangerous Black residential areas; leaving dead-end, soul-draining "helping professions;" maintaining one's health through physical fitness; and developing other income streams. These are all steps along the Sojourner's Path.

As much as I prefer to focus on these sorts of things, the reality is that none of this works when you don't have any loyalty to yourself, your values, or your own interests. This lack of loyalty to self is the underlying reason why so many African-American women are so easily pulled off course from turning their dreams into reality.

You can't be loyal to yourself AND loyal that which is anti-you at the same time. When you make room, make a way, and make it comfortable and cozy for people that are anti-you, then you are acting as their ally. If you are in an alliance with somebody who hates you, then you're actually in a state of war against yourself.

Other people fighting against you, plus you helping them fight against you = YOU LOSE.

I. Do You Have Any Loyalty To Yourself?

Most African-American women don't understand the above ideas. This is the underlying reason why so many of us are suffering. We're confused. We don't call the support that we give to people who hate us "being in a state of war against ourselves." We use other terms. We call it being "compassionate," being "loving,""rising above ___________,""being fair," and worst of all, we mislabel giving aid and comfort to people who hate us as "doing the right thing."

NO! Making room, making a way, and making it comfortable and cozy for people who hate you is not the right thing to do. It's the wrong thing! It's wrong to grin and cheese with people who hate you, and make mockery of the things that are most important to you. At minimum, you need to walk away from them while they're in the process of doing this.

The Quran warns about this:

"And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hearAllah’s messages disbelieved in andmocked at, sit not with them untilthey enter into some other discourse,for then indeed you would be likethem. Surely Allah will gathertogether the hypocrites and the disbelieversall in hell—" Holy Quran, 4: 140.

The Quran also warns the believers about what's really going on with the "haters":

"O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom." Holy Quran, 3:118.

Do you while away the time with people who hate you?

Do you interact with people who hate you?

Do you remain in the company of people who insult you, and the things that matter most to you?

Do you cheese and grin with people who make mockery of your aspirations?

Most African-American women do the things I've listed above. Some do it because this behavior has become normalized among us. Some know better, and do it anyway out of social pressure. I can hear such women thinking, "If I walk away from everybody who verbally spits on me or my dreams, then I won't have anybody left around me." Well, then you need to work double-time to find some new people to associate with.

I submit to you that part of the reason why you haven't found people who would actually support you and your goals is because you've been "treading water" with folks who don't support you. Two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. The "haters" around you are taking up space that could be filled with people who are actually compatible with you and your interests.

II. Do You Have Any Boundaries? Is The Space Within YOUR Immediate Presence A "Safe Space"? Are The Spaces That YOU Control Safe Spaces For You, And For Other African-American Women?

Most African-American women don't have any boundaries. We generally don't require the area within our immediate presence to be a "safe space." We also don't make the spaces that we control safe places for ourselves and for other African-American women.

This came up during a recent conversation hosted by Faith (blog host of Acts of Faith In Love and Life, which is on my sidebar blogroll). In this post http://actsoffaithinloveandlife.blogspot.com/2009/08/lessons-african-american-women-can.html), she made mention of a conversation over at another blog. What I found fascinating about the conversation that she made reference to is that a man who has previously voiced his disdain for African-American women was perfectly free and welcome to particpate in this conversation. As if he was a legitimate participant.

It's interesting that a man who has disdain for African-American women, and states that he has very little in common with African-American women hangs out at African-American women's blogs. One may wonder, "Why in the world does he go out of his way to come around us at our blogs, since he has so very little in common with us?"

Well, . . . this man leaves comments at Black women's blogs in order to tell Black women about the disdain he has for us, to insult us, and yet is still a welcome participant at several Black women's blogs.

I don't fault him; he's only doing what he's being allowed to do in an atmosphere that has been made comfy and cozy for him. Furthermore, what he thinks about Black women is not particularly important to me. What is important, and is a point of concern for me, is the fact that he's still welcomed into these conversations at various Black women's blogs as if he's a legitimate participant.

Many African-American women bloggers apparently don't find anything . . . peculiar . . . about allowing somebody to freely pull up a chair in our blog "homes" . . . and insult African-American women. In other words, many of us are okay with our blogs NOT being safe spaces for Black women. I suppose because, you know, we have to be "fair" to people who have already voiced their disdain for us.

How other people operate their spaces is up to them, and is none of my business. [As the Isley Brothers sang, "It's your thing, do what you wanna do. I can't tell you, who to sock it to!" LOL!] That's not my point of concern. What I AM questioning is the mindset that makes this possible in the first place. I AM questioning the widespread mindset that perceives this sort of situation as "normal."

I believe that African-American women who want to survive and thrive must purge their minds of this particular mindset. That's why I'm discussing this concrete example. So that we can all reflect upon what loyalty to self looks like in various contexts.

I said the following over at Faith's blog:

"Faith, Please excuse the extreme length of this comment. I hope to amplify one angle of the point that you made in this post.

I believe AA women need to apply the same analysis that you suggested (of asking "What, if any, value does this individual provide to AA women?") across the board. That includes scrutinizing who it is that we bother to interact with. On any level.

During these online discussions, we're often unfamiliar with the people that we're talking to. Faith, this is what you alluded to when you confronted one BM commenter about his lack of a traceable commenter ID.

As you know, a lot of folks want to comment without any sort of accountability. So, they invent new, closed profiles that they use for leaving certain types of comments. They do this because they don't want anybody following up with them at their own blogs; or making reference to their commenting history (as I'm about to do below).

WARNING: I'm repeating the following for illustration purposes ONLY. Ladies, please DON'T waste your time or breath on this individual. Please DON'T run over to his blog or over to The Black Snob blog to argue or otherwise interact with him. Please ignore him in reference to this.

Keep in mind the following questions that I often wonder as I run across this particular individual commenting over at various AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN'S BLOGS:

1-Why does this man hang out at so many AA women's blogs? Especially considering how very little he says he has in common with AA women?

2-Do the women talking to him know this guy's history in terms of his remarks about AA women?

3-If so, why do they bother interacting with him?

I have a fairly long memory when it comes to nonsense, and I vaguely recalled seeing The Angry Independent commenter being specifically (somewhat humorously) referenced and called out at another BW's blog.

[Audience Note: Since I've linked to it above, there's no need for me to repeat the part of my comment that quotes from this particular blog post, or from his comment over at The Black Snob. One can read his comments over at The Black Snob post that Faith linked to. ]

Again, why are so many of us interacting with this person online? Why is his participation in BW's blog conversations welcomed? Are we paying attention?

[I won't bother to ask whether or not the Internet Ike Turners or Black Unity fascists have ever confronted this particular BM (The Angry Independent) who entitled his blog post "Why I Hate Being Black No. 899". You know, since they're sooo concerned about maintaining Black unity...]

Ladies, other people [especially the Jewish community] have LONG memories in terms of people who insult them. Maybe we need to learn how to have long memories too. Peace, blessings and solidarity.

. . . My issue is that so many BW continue to welcome the participation of men like The Angry Independent in our conversations. As if he's a legitimate participant to discuss issues that are of concern to BW. So, somebody can hate us, but if he prefaces his hatred with "As much as I want to love Black women…………" then it's okay? This is what I find so amazing about some of these conversations.

As to T.O.: He has a right to spend his money and time on whoever he wants. The same way I have the right to totally ignore his problems if and when he has a "Skip Gates/OJ/Wesley Snipes/Michael Vick, etc. Experience." We're ALL free agents! LOL! Thanks for another great post. Peace, blessings and solidarity."

If you're going to successfully walk the Sojourner's Path, you must be loyal to yourself, your values, and your own interests.

Do you have any loyalty to yourself?

Do you while away the time with people who hate you?

Do you interact with people who hate you?

Do you remain in the company of people who insult you, and the things that matter most to you?

Do you cheese and grin with people who make mockery of your aspirations?

Do you have any boundaries?

Is the space within YOUR immediate presence a "safe space"?

Are the spaces that YOU control, safe spaces for you, and for other African-American women?

54 comments:

Do you remain in the company of people who insult you, and the things that matter most to you?

Do you cheese and grin with people who make mockery of your aspirations?Do You Have Any Boundaries?

Is The Space Within YOUR Immediate Presence A "Safe Space"?

Are The Spaces That YOU Control Safe Spaces For You, And For Other African-American Women?

My reply:

I think part of the problem, in light of the commentator you spoke of, who constantly enters into black women's forums for the purpose of proving his hatred, has to do with the way in which some black women might be thinking of what is happening.

One, if one's critical thinking skills are not sharp, it is easy to miss what is happening.

Two, rather than take a stronger position and go on the offensive, some might be conceding, "Well, he has a point..."

Three, which was mentioned before, some seek "dialog" with people who will never come around, and whose sole interest is in attacking.

Four, an interest in appeasing and being inclusive of "all of us," which was discussed earlier.

Five, a deference to men that many women can embody. Where another woman would be attacked, men are given a pass.

"You can't be loyal to yourself AND loyal that which is anti-you at the same time. When you make room, make a way, and make it comfortable and cozy for people that are anti-you, then you are acting as their ally. If you are in an alliance with somebody who hates you, then you're actually in a state of war against yourself.

Other people fighting against you, plus you helping them fight against you = YOU LOSE."

This is an INCREDIBLY deep and truthful statement Khadija.

We must all make a point of trying to remember this.

Often, we unknowingly make room for the nonsense by giving toxic others the "benefit of the doubt" when our FIRST gut instinct was correct all along.

We've all had experiences like these I believe.

Usually when our gut/heart is trying to tell us something, it's for a GOOD reason and we need to listen to those instincts. Those first impressions.

You said, "I think part of the problem, in light of the commentator you spoke of, who constantly enters into black women's forums for the purpose of proving his hatred, has to do with the way in which some black women might be thinking of what is happening."(emphasis added)

The more I think about this, the crazier the whole situation looks to me. What's craziest of all is that this individual has thus far avoided being identified as an Internet Ike Turner (as far as I can tell).

A man who says that he has very little in common with AA women***and goes out of his way to hang out at various AA women's forums***in order to insult AA women***is accepted as a legitimate discussion participant at BW's blogs. And this is somehow okay and "normal." And somehow not perceived as REPEATED acts of verbal aggression. Wow!!

It shows just how much AA women have normalized the practice of taking verbal abuse off of BM.

You said, "Often, we unknowingly make room for the nonsense by giving toxic others the "benefit of the doubt" when our FIRST gut instinct was correct all along. We've all had experiences like these I believe."

Oh yes, we've all had these sorts of experiences. What has me shaking my head about the example I mentioned, and some other situations that I've seen is that they were OVERT. The situations didn't require any gut instinct. In these cases, the "hater" straight-up TOLD AA women point-blank that they didn't think anything of them!

You said, "Usually when our gut/heart is trying to tell us something, it's for a GOOD reason and we need to listen to those instincts. Those first impressions."

Yes! Listening to our instincts when we get a bad vibe off of somebody or a situation can literally save our lives. I believe that this is the most important lesson from the security consultant's book (I can't remember the author's name), "The Gift of Fear." These uncomfortable gut reactions are a gift from God. They're an early warning system. We ignore them at our peril.

As of July 1st, I began training for a half-marathon and immediately following my 4 day recovery, I will begin training for an actual marathon.

I am also very pleased to announce that I have only 30 more pounds to lose, and since I've started working with a personal trainer have noticed my biceps and quads "beefing" up.

Since it is my dream to relocate back to Germany, I have started taking a free German course offered online, although my friend Danyiella (who is German) tells me I still have a waaaays to go. LOL!

So yes, I am choking the life out of my wildest dreams and have been very pleased with the results.

Speaking of loyalty, me and my husband are celebrating our ten year wedding anniversary this upcoming October (I am soo excited) and we are having a huge ceremony. All of his family is flying in from out of town and even a few of my family members. But just a few.

People like my mother have not been invited (because she still associates with one of the men who abused me as a child --and is all around not very supportive. And folks like my father (who is extremely jealous of my husband AND of the fact that I was not only able to "make" it out of the ghetto, but still have the good sense I was born with) have not been invited.

I'm use to demanding reciporcity now but in the beginning I'll admit, it was brand new territory and I sucked at it. Over analyzing, over thinking situations, but after a while it became much easier.

I have a great deal to offer to other people and those with eyes will see. I am well aware of the fact that I must prove myself and my intentions to people i wish to have a relationship with, and it always feels really nice to do so.

Which brings me to my last point, next week I am meeting up with two different women at our local art museum and then we are headed downtown to hit up a great restauraunt, which is known for their margaritas.

Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?

No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

For AA women this comes down to worshipping other people, maintaining the status quo, the black community indoctrination or taking care of ourselves with determination and focus.

@Destouet: Thank you for sharing such joyful news. Even your previous struggles are an encouragement because it proves that we can re-order our thinking, reevaluate what is beneficial and keep it moving.

The Quran also warns the believers about what's really going on with the "haters":

"O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom." Holy Quran, 3:118.

"What their hearts conceal is far worse." ----PREACH!

The Bible (NIV)says-

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not cast your pearls to the swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

Gospel of Matthew 7:6

Many Christian African-American women have a fear of being labeled selfish. They feel if they martyr themselves doing for for others, this will please the Lord.

It will not.

What pleases the Lord is having the faith of a mustard seed, trusting Him to take care of you when the parasites turn on you for closing the door on them.

In the last three years, I have been selfish with my personal life-anyone who does not bring the positive cannot come in.

It's not easy being selfish. For a while it was very lonely. What I have found is-when you establish boundaries, sometimes you lose what is familiar. Is it scary? It can be, but I lived.

New people have come into my life that have blessed me in ways that would have never happened if I had stayed in the company of the "haters".

Felicia said:

"Usually when our gut/heart is trying to tell us something, it's for a GOOD reason and we need to listen to those instincts. Those first impressions."________

I have learned that when I am in the presence of someone, or a situation that makes me feel uncomfortable, I simply leave- immediately!

THANK YOU for mentioning the passage from Luke. I'm adding it to my favorite scripture verses!

Another interesting thing that you and Tee are pointing to is that our various scriptures have already TOLD us about these various scenarios. And most of us (who claim to be believers) still aren't making the connections. Amazing._____________________

Tee,

Thank you for your kind words about the post; I truly appreciate it.

And THANK YOU for the Biblical quote. It's another one that I'm adding to my collection of favorite scripture verses!

What's interesting about the behavior pattern that this verse describes is that not only do the swine respond inappropriately to the pearls that are presented to them***but they take it a step further and go on to ATTACK the person who offered it to them!

Yep, I've seen that behavior pattern before. I've had some swine try to trample me AND the pearls that I foolishly presented to them. They have definitely (and inadvertently) trained me to be much more cautious about that. A lot of AAs take kindness for weakness, and an open invitation to try to exploit the kind person.

You said, "New people have come into my life that have blessed me in ways that would have never happened if I had stayed in the company of the "haters".

I've had the same experience. It's not easy at first (what is?), but it's well worth it later on.

You said, "I have learned that when I am in the presence of someone, or a situation that makes me feel uncomfortable, I simply leave- immediately!"

Same here. I don't try to analyze it; I don't ask anybody any questions. I simply exit-stage-right---immediately.

Thank you Khadija. I think so many of us are worried about being misunderstood as the stereotypes that abound about Black women that we don't set enough boundaries. Putting this as "loyalty to yourself" is crucial. In the mass media and other parts of daily life we get targeted as the group it's okay to make fun of and deride. We have to actively purge ourselves of this kind of influence. Thanks for reminding us of that.

You know sometimes I am trying hard to sound the depths of what’s going on in bw’s heads.

I cant tell you how many times I have happened upon such conversations where a bm has essentially written a comment or response dripping with disdain and anti-bw sentiment, and I am rubbing my hands with expectation that the next bw who comes on will ‘set them straight.’ lo and behold the next bw comes in with a: ‘I agree with you 100% etc etc …’ totally meandering the thinly veiled insult garnished with a sliver of ‘wisdom’(which they decided to respond to)! . I tell you I am almost having a heart attack at this point.

Are these women pretending that they didn’t get the gist or they are really that thick and cant read and comprehend and I am not talking about bw who we all know to be black male identified here, I am talking about sensible, intelligent bw who don’t seem to be desperate to bm-please. I am convinced these women are not thick and know that they have been insulted, because they actually ignore the insulting bits and zone in on the 'sense' bit, which shows that they are in filtering mode and are not merely failing to pick up the intent.

These bm are not even trying to hide their disdain when they enter these conversation, it is full on and in evidence that you would have to try very hard not to see it. No doubt what is going on is that bw have their instructions to ‘reframe’ anything bm say and make it something useable, something that can be added into this whole ’dialogue’ effort which bw and bm are supposed to be having over their situation.

Indeed if these women do not reclaim aspects of or clean up these comments, or if they see the comments for just what they really are(and consequently toss them in the bin), then they know they have nothing, no ‘input’ from black men for this so called dialogue.

lets face it, bm are not even speaking and dialoging in any significant or meaningful way over the Bc (and when they do you and I know how it all goes lol), to sustain the delusion that they are and are just itching to do their bit for the BC, any comment is siezed (with thanksgiving) and no matter how disdainful, bw feel they need to read so much sense and good intetnion into it. You can almost picture bw hunched over with magnifying glasses trying to make sense where there is none, and see profound mysteries where there is pure petulance and childishness lol!

It is all about rummaging around in garbage trying to ‘dust off’ or piece together something that they can say, 'see they are talking with us and they do want to work things out.' it is the bw self deception in full mode, that makes bw read malice laden comments as real dialogue and respond to it as such.

Also notice that so many bm are guest writers on black female owned blogs or ‘progressive’ blogs etc and when you click on their individual blogs you will find a strong streak of malice running against bw through their entire content (and I am not talking about general male chauvinism here I am talking about real disdain, lack of compassion, consideration and fairness for black women).

Someone indeed needs to check their filter settings because certain folks are getting through! It does really say something about bw's criteria. You can be sure that no self-respecting white feminist blog/web community would even have such commenters anywhere near them. Note how that male allies of ww have to ‘come correct’ be more advanced in their feminist analysis than even the women, and not just that, they must adopt a conceding posture towards the women. Meanwhile bw make all sorts of allowances until anti-bw bm are comfortably sitting in our discussions.

A man who says that he has very little in common with AA women***and goes out of his way to hang out at various AA women's forums***in order to insult AA women***is accepted as a legitimate discussion participant at BW's blogs. And this is somehow okay and "normal." And somehow not perceived as REPEATED acts of verbal aggression. Wow!!

Khadija, this man you're describing is so obviously an emotional and SPIRITUAL predator of bw, and it certainly sounds like he is operating in a "Be Kind To Predators" zone there, or what I'll abbreviate as the BKTP zone.

It's usually bw who operate and safeguard these BKTP zones--rarely bm or anyone else. These males are allowed to operate freely in these BKTP zones--to batter and assault the minds and spirits of bw, without getting any blood on their hands. They WILL continue to do this and it will escalate.

These males are "girl fighters." That's a term used by elementary and middle school kids I used to counsel for boys who are afraid to fight other boys, so they always punch girls in the face. Their adult male counterparts online are inadequate, insecure, angry, males who have failed to get the women they want or are general failures in their social lives, so these 'girl fighters' have now started stalking and attacking women online.

Most AA women have been ***programmed*** to "be kind" to bm predators and parasites. That is the core of this whole problematic situation and as long as they're being kind and FAIR to predators, the predators are going to multiply and the attacks against black girls and bw are going to become more severe, as we are already seeing.

Sometimes, I just cringe at what I KNOW is going to happen to a lot of those little innocent black girls that I see in church or at any elementary school or wherever because of all of those bw in the BKTP league who refuse to protect those girls. But all I can do is write about it, warn them.

Yet, I actually read where some bw are ***confused*** as to why these attacks on young black girls and bw are relentless and increasingly more disdainful or savage. DUH!!!

Some of these bm verbal and emotional predators naturally scream when bw bloggers like me won't allow them to use my site to launch attacks on bw. And of course, there are many bw commenters (or commenters who "claim" to be bw) of that league who would crucify me for censoring the "brothas." Madness!

A predator is a predator is a predator and it doesn't matter what skin shade s/he is or how s/he may try to present themselves.

Anyway, this is why I continue to urge AA women to carefully vet any person who they allow in their inner circle and evaluate that person as an INDIVIDUAL--not by their group, gender, or any notion of shared our un-shared racial history. Or better yet, bw just need to FLEE. That's the only chance most of them have because many AA women don't have the emotional grit, strength, or the WILL to protect themselves or their daughters from predators, IF the predator is a bm. They've already been too badly weakened.

You said, "I cant tell you how many times I have happened upon such conversations where a bm has essentially written a comment or response dripping with disdain and anti-bw sentiment, and I am rubbing my hands with expectation that the next bw who comes on will ‘set them straight.’ lo and behold the next bw comes in with a: ‘I agree with you 100% etc etc …’ totally meandering the thinly veiled insult garnished with a sliver of ‘wisdom’(which they decided to respond to)! . I tell you I am almost having a heart attack at this point."

Guuurl, after watching so many otherwise sensible-seeming BW engage in this pattern so many times, I've started hearing the Gnarls Barkley song "Crazy" playing in my head when I run across across this sort of thing.

You said, "I am convinced these women are not thick and know that they have been insulted, because they actually ignore the insulting bits and zone in on the 'sense' bit, which shows that they are in filtering mode and are not merely failing to pick up the intent."

{To the tune of the Gnarls Barkley song: "Maybe they're craaa-zeee. This filtering is craaa-zeee. It's all really craaa-zeee...Definitely."}

You said, "No doubt what is going on is that bw have their instructions to ‘reframe’ anything bm say and make it something useable, something that can be added into this whole ’dialogue’ effort which bw and bm are supposed to be having over their situation."

{To the tune of the Gnarls Barkley song: "They've been made craaa-zeee. This reframing is craaa-zeee. It's all really craaa-zeee...Definitely."}

You said, "You can almost picture bw hunched over with magnifying glasses trying to make sense where there is none, and see profound mysteries where there is pure petulance and childishness lol!"

With many of these men's comments, one needs an electron microscope to search for good intentions and sense. As you noted, most of these men's comments are dripping with PURE MALICE toward BW (which is several orders of magnitude beyond "simple" chauvinism).

You said, "Someone indeed needs to check their filter settings because certain folks are getting through! It does really say something about bw's criteria."

It says that we don't have any serious criteria; we're just happy a BM showed up to "participate" (even if he's only there to verbally box our heads).

{To the tune of the Gnarls Barkley song: "They've been made craaa-zeee. This open-door is craaa-zeee. It's all really craaa-zeee...Definitely."}

The more I think about this, the crazier the whole situation looks to me. What's craziest of all is that this individual has thus far avoided being identified as an Internet Ike Turner (as far as I can tell).

A man who says that he has very little in common with AA women***and goes out of his way to hang out at various AA women's forums***in order to insult AA women***is accepted as a legitimate discussion participant at BW's blogs. And this is somehow okay and "normal." And somehow not perceived as REPEATED acts of verbal aggression. Wow!!

My reply:

It seems to me that the blog in question is primarily a gossip blog, not necessarily an empowerment one. Thus, the blog host might not be in tune with the issues of black women and their empowerment as others have been talking about them.

Halima:

You can be sure that no self-respecting white feminist blog/web community would even have such commenters anywhere near them. Note how that male allies of ww have to ‘come correct’ be more advanced in their feminist analysis than even the women, and not just that, they must adopt a conceding posture towards the women. Meanwhile bw make all sorts of allowances until anti-bw bm are comfortably sitting in our discussions.

dialogue all on bm's terms!

My reply:

Now isn't that the truth! But again, black women have tended to be apologetic whenever they talk about their needs and interests as separate and apart from black men, undoubtedly a holdover from their indoctrination that women-based gender talk in the community is illegitimate.

So in order to appease their (male) critics that they are "good race women," they are inclusive and remain open spaces for men who want to come in and contribute. The misogynistic men thus come in and "set them straight" and if anything, change the agenda.

You said, "Khadija, this man you're describing is so obviously an emotional and SPIRITUAL predator of bw, and it certainly sounds like he is operating in a "Be Kind To Predators" zone there, or what I'll abbreviate as the BKTP zone."

Yes, it's quite obvious that this Angry Independent commenter comes around BW in order to hurt BW and break their spirits. I recall another BM like this that was at another AA Muslim woman's blog. He came to that BW's blog to lecture BW at length about how unfit he felt AA women are to be wives.

Now, what I found interesting was how quickly he fled after I wrote in to identify him (and men like him) as a DBRBM, and commented that the ONLY reason he was there was to break BW's spirits. He was willing to hang around to argue with those women who responded as if his presence was legitimate, but once his cover was blown, he fled.

Then, of course, the BW blog host felt the need to try to "balance" my remarks with the trite mantra of "not all BM are...yadda, yadda, yadda." I recall that I asked where were these "good BM" while this Negro was at length verbally stomping on Black American Muslim women's collective honor. I also asked why didn't one of the many "good Black Muslim men" jump in to confront this Negro?

Now, the point when the "good Black American Muslim men" DID perk up and enter the conversation was after I suggested that the women present stop limiting themselves to marrying Black Muslim men, and seek quality Muslim husbands of any race/ethnicity (like Black American Muslim men are ALREADY doing). Then there were suddenly a rush of "concerned" comments from these good Black American Muslim men about rebuilding AA marriages, and the AA family, etc.

{To the tune of the Gnarls Barkley song: "They've been made craaa-zeee. This open-door is craaa-zeee. It's all really craaa-zeee...Definitely."}

You said, "It's usually bw who operate and safeguard these BKTP zones--rarely bm or anyone else. These males are allowed to operate freely in these BKTP zones--to batter and assault the minds and spirits of bw, without getting any blood on their hands. They WILL continue to do this and it will escalate."

Unfortunately, this is true.

You said, "These males are "girl fighters." That's a term used by elementary and middle school kids I used to counsel for boys who are afraid to fight other boys, so they always punch girls in the face. Their adult male counterparts online are inadequate, insecure, angry, males who have failed to get the women they want or are general failures in their social lives, so these 'girl fighters' have now started stalking and attacking women online."

The children have called it! Sometimes, children can be wiser than adults in accurately identifying certain situations.

You said, "Sometimes, I just cringe at what I KNOW is going to happen to a lot of those little innocent black girls that I see in church or at any elementary school or wherever because of all of those bw in the BKTP league who refuse to protect those girls. But all I can do is write about it, warn them."

My conscience is clear because I'm doing my part; that's all that I can do.________________________

PioneerValleyWoman,

You said, "It seems to me that the blog in question is primarily a gossip blog, not necessarily an empowerment one. Thus, the blog host might not be in tune with the issues of black women and their empowerment as others have been talking about them."

A person doesn't have to be in tune with any "official" issues in order to have SELF-respect. This sort of behavior is the equivalent of bringing in male guests who curse in a lady host's presence, and insult her to her face.

There is a song I love by The Smiths called "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now". Most people clutch their pearls and roll their eyes about the brutal honesty of Morrissey's lyrics. In that song he asks, "Why do I spend valuable time with people who don't care if I live or I die?"

Ever since I asked myself that question my mood has been improved. Hell, I even ask people that. Why should I.

Working in DC is filled with teams and sworn "fealty". Not 1 week ago, somebody criticized me for being an Independent instead of a Democrat. I always go the road that works for me. (Ironically, she is from a dying Democrat-run Rust Belt city)

I have made it clear that I work for my team.

I advocate for my interests and needs. I make it clear so that there is no confusion.

*** DeStouet congrats. I wish you the best and the happiness you know you deserve.

***Khadija, I have noticed that behavior regarding that commenter. For the life of me I've wondered how he does NOT get banned.

I think what happens is that he criticizes an aspect of underclass life that many of us critique or condemn. Once he's in, people may "yeah, but"...if we're lucky. It's like folks want any male to agree so badly that they allow the trojan horse in the gate.

and yes...they want to be seen as "fair". Although there is nothing fair about his commentary.

I'll keep it short, when you have love, respect and values for oneself that you do not compromise for others then by default you have boundaries and will not accept behaviours/actions that violate them.

Khadija...oh my. This post almost made me cry. My short answer is "no, but I'm working on it."

I'm all about the baby steps: from lurking on your blog (and others'), thinking harder about the subject until I'm in a slightly better mood and thus can contribute something substantive . [I did, however, note the inconsistency at the Black Snob and just shook my head: how can one heavily edit a comment re: MJ's death--the term used therein was "disemvoweled"--but let this Angry Independent fellow run the 'house' ragged? The mind boggles.] that, and I put up a Go West, Black Woman!(no Kanye) billboard in my head to stay focused. I'm in the hood, but not of it. Unfortunately, I have to work two jobs to adequately finance/expedite my escape. Again, baby steps.

DeStouet, more congrats are in order: you've done what I'm thinking about (and a wee nervous about) doing.

Thanks for this post. It is absolutely necessary. I talk often of black women's need to get rid of the dead weight. I did. And now I am happier because though my true friends are few, they are of the highest quality. I had this same conversation with my sister yesterday. About her need to get rid of people who clearly hate her. Because they are jealous, selfish, and spitelful. Or because they haven't accomplished anything and don't want her to either. I think that a good way of finding out whether a person is real is to notice the comments that they make when we talk about our dreams. Most people who care about you will either give words of encouragement and/or give helpful suggestions to help you move further toward your dreams. Someone who always responds negatively to everything that you say you want to do is a person who doesn't want you to do better than they are doing. Some people are ok with you until you start to move up in the world, not only in terms of making money but also in terms of achieving your dreams. The truth is that most people only talk about what they want to accomplish but aren't willing to make the sacrifices that are sometimes necessary to make dreams come true. They are not willing to do the work. I find that is the case with most black people that I know. But it's not enough for them to not accomplish anything, they also have to make sure that you don't accomplish anything either. So, black women, get rid of the dead weight.

As for the Angry Independent, he's been flying under the radar for over two years now. I remember when Gina first started her blog and he used to always comment. No matter the situation, he always found a way to blame the black female victim. Remember his comments about the Hovey Street Murders and how outraged eveyone was because he all but launched a campaign blaming the victims? It seems to me that eventhough on the surface he may appear to be harmless, there is always a hint of disdain and outright hatred for black women that lies just beneath the surface. I have come to believe that not only does this individual hate black women, but he hates his blackness period. I have also felt for a long time that he has some serious psychological and social anxiety issues. He is definitely an IIT flying under the radar. Thanks for being bold enough to say what others will not.

This is another excellent post. I have been seeing exactly the phenomenon you described at another black woman's blog. Several DBRBM habitually take over whole threads where they do nothing but insult and harass black women. And they continue to get their comments approved!

If there is a post about BW and IRRs, they are there with a myriad venomous comments. If it's a post about violence against black women, street harassment of black women, or anything where black men could have valid input about what they could and should be doing for the community, they suddenly have nothing to say.

I used to think that these types of men should not be across the board excluded from commenting, but now I see they only intention they have is to shame us, harass us, silence us, and disrupt our conversations.

You said, "I have learned that the old "love thy enemies" and "turn the other cheek" stuff with the wrong person will get you nowhere fast."

Yep. These sorts of people need some of the Old Testament style of "counseling" folks._______________________

LaJane Galt,

The Smiths!! You've brought back memories---I loved The Smiths! Morrissey told the plain truth about so many things in his lyrics. I think of the AA community's knee-jerk support of violent BM criminals whenever I listen to "Sweet & Tender Hooligan":

"He was a sweet and tender hooligan, hooliganAnd he said that he'd never, never do it againAnd of course he won't (oh, not until the next time)

He was a sweet and tender hooligan, hooliganAnd he swore that he'll never, never do it againAnd of course he won't (oh, not until the next time)

Poor old manHe had an accident with a three-bar fireBut thats okBecause he wasnt very happy anywayPoor womanStrangled in her very own bed as she readBut thats okBecause she was old and she would have died anywayDont blame

The sweet and tender hooligan, hooliganBecause he'll never, never, never, never, never, never do it again(not until the next time)..."

{returning back from Memory Lane}

You said, "***Khadija, I have noticed that behavior regarding that commenter. For the life of me I've wondered how he does NOT get banned.

I think what happens is that he criticizes an aspect of underclass life that many of us critique or condemn. Once he's in, people may "yeah, but"...if we're lucky. It's like folks want any male to agree so badly that they allow the trojan horse in the gate."

I agree. Many BM have learned that there's only a minimal price of admission into our conversations. As long as they preface their REAL agenda with lightweight, surface critiques of a few random BM's behaviors, then they are allowed to roam free to pursue their real agenda. Whatever that real agenda might be. For many of these men, their real purpose for coming among BW is to verbally beat down BW.

For other men, their real purpose for coming among BW is to promote their religious fundamentalist agenda, and everything that accompanies that agenda---anti-abortion rhetoric, verbal gay/lesbian bashing, etc. They make tactical statements that only sound supportive of BW on the surface. But these tactical supportive-sounding statements are just the price of admission to get in to push their real agenda.

This is what one of the Christian fundamentalist BM commenters at WAOD does. Until he was recently called on this behavior, he had the practice of almost always inserting his anti-gay/lesbian, anti-abortion rhetoric into totally-unrelated conversations.

You said, "I'll keep it short, when you have love, respect and values for oneself that you do not compromise for others then by default you have boundaries and will not accept behaviours/actions that violate them."

Yes, baby steps. You're on your way! Keep up the good work! Please keep in mind that this sort of mental programming is typical for oppressed people across the board. The servant/slave is ALWAYS conditioned to look out for his/her master's interests first. The oppression would not be sustainable otherwise.

The "typical" AA will look out for non-AAs' interests first. We like to call it "being fair," and being in "coalitions" with others. The "typical" AA woman will prioritize other people over herself. This is the baseline.

Unless a person's parents actively raised them differently, or the person came to a self-actualizing mindset on their own, this type of thinking IS the norm for oppressed people in relation to their oppressors.

Even otherwise sensible AA women perceive the patterns that we're discussing as normal because they've been conditioned to perceive BM as "being in it together with BW." So they unconsciously mentally filter and twist BM's statements in order to maintain this illusion of most AA men and women generally being comrades working side by side on the good ship "SOS Black Community."

You said, "I think that a good way of finding out whether a person is real is to notice the comments that they make when we talk about our dreams. Most people who care about you will either give words of encouragement and/or give helpful suggestions to help you move further toward your dreams. Someone who always responds negatively to everything that you say you want to do is a person who doesn't want you to do better than they are doing."

PREACH!

You said, "Some people are ok with you until you start to move up in the world, not only in terms of making money but also in terms of achieving your dreams. The truth is that most people only talk about what they want to accomplish but aren't willing to make the sacrifices that are sometimes necessary to make dreams come true."

Yes. In many settings, it's hip, fashionable and expected that people will talk smack about their supposed aspirations. In some social and work circles, it's not cool to admit that one's plan is to lay up on a job until retirement. So everybody feels compelled to talk that stuff. And all is well as long as it's just talk. When somebody actually starts to break away from the herd is when the hateration goes into overdrive!

You said, "As for the Angry Independent, he's been flying under the radar for over two years now."

Yes, I've noticed how he's been able to fly under the radar for a while. I just didn't have a forum of my own where I could discuss the mass BW's mindset that makes this possible with the nuance and precision needed for this sort of topic.

You said, "Remember his comments about the Hovey Street Murders and how outraged eveyone was because he all but launched a campaign blaming the victims?"

Yes, I remember. It seems that all sorts of...peculiar...behaviors were on display online after that incident.

My memory about the intricate details of this are vague, but there was a respected, thougt-of-as-progressive, BM blogger who displayed morgue photos of the BF Hovey Street victims on his blog. Apparently, he had never displayed photos of dead BM crime victims; but he somehow felt that it was appropriate to display the morgue photos of those murdered BW. I don't recall what his justification/rationale for this was.

There was some furor over that. IIRC, the man ultimately stopped displaying those photos, but never apologized for desecrating those particular murder victims in the first place. Again, the mind boggles as to what is perceived as "appropriate" regarding BW.

You said, "I have come to believe that not only does this individual hate black women, but he hates his blackness period."

Well, yeah. And he's told everybody that! On more than one occassion, this man has publicly stated that he HATES being Black. Wasn't that the title or subtitle of his post that I linked to? He's already said that out loud.

@ Khadija: Lol I loved the Crazy song comment. That song is in my head now.

The example you gave of the "good black men" not saying anything until you suggested that black muslim women marry is so On Point. If you'd like to see an amazing example of the same type of foolishness check out the comment section for the all things considered segment on the Black women interracial dating Seminar. One guy says that an asian woman told him that black women treat their men worse than any other women on the planet. That's means it must be true, right?!

You said, "I used to think that these types of men should not be across the board excluded from commenting, but now I see they only intention they have is to shame us, harass us, silence us, and disrupt our conversations."

That's what's so outlandish about this situation. These men are coming to BW's blogs with this mess. They are invading OUR spaces. As long as they're not breaking the law, then I don't care what the IITs are saying off in their own corners. Since I don't care about the IITs OR their views about anything, I don't go to their sites.

But the IITs' mass, constant invasions of BW's spaces only happen to this extent because so many BW bloggers enable this behavior.

As I said in the post, my primary concern is that most AA women generally extend this same type of predator-enabling behavior to ALL areas of their lives. And that's why they suffer so much. Any AA woman who wants to live well MUST stop doing this. ASAP.______________________

Harmony,

You said, "I do think black women and black people don't have a sense of loyalty to ourselves because I have personally witnessed other races say insulting things about blacks and they NEVER spoke up, except me.

We are WAY too nice to those who spit on us."

I agree. And I feel that it's not really about "being nice." That's just how we "spin" this sort of behavior to make ourselves feel good about it. It's really about some other things, such as FEAR.

I'm so completely loyal to myself that people who have no idea what self-loyalty is, often call me "selfish". And you know what, I've proudly taken on that name. Yes I am selfish. I am concerned primarily with my care, my happiness, my preservation. Funny thing, I am widely known as being loving and generous, but they know that I'm not concerned with the well-being of others to the point of dismissing myself. Those people who slung that word around negatively have been eliminated, as I really can't endure misunderstood definitions of myself being slung around.

Self loyalty for me meant moving out of the country two years ago, not because my job moved me and not because a love asked me, but just because I wanted that for me. It was the best move for me and my happiness. We really have to do whatever we need to do for ourselves, even if family or friends or so called friends find ways to discourage. The cries of those that they will miss us when we leave the 'hood/NAACP/BW4BM club/country are not enough. Their lists of assumed dangers and obstacles are not enough. I could go on as this post was so delicious, but I'll stop here.

Thanks again for your continued inspiration Khadija!

And congrats to the runners and movers and shakers who share their wonderful stories here. I wish I could meet some of you!

Kudos Khadija. Another great post. The Internet Ike and Ikette Turners are posting comments to BWE blogs to distract and re-direct the conversation and to spill there hateful thoughts on others.They are doing this on purpose because if they have one Black Women who is on the fence and somehow pull her back to there side they will feel like they are winning. They want tp prevent Black Women from standing up for themselves, thinking for themselves and taking better care of themselves. They know that when they engage in hateful talk they get a rise and reaction to there comments. This then allows them to say see I told you Black women are so mean and angry so.Then the women who are on the fence say yeah why can't so and so speak to what is on his mind. They become confused and immediately want to defend and protect the person instead of undestanding that when a person writes why I hate being Black and why I dislike Black Women and then comes to a Black Women blog that person is nuts and is hoping to prey on weak minded Black Women so that he can further bash them. He is not about the upliftment of black women when he already told us clearly he did not like Black Women nor like being Black. When someone tells me they do not like me I tend to believe them. Keep up the good work. People are listening and making changes to better there lives. I think this is what is upsetting them. They know more women are begining to see through the foolishness.

The Smiths' work has held up 20+ years later. I recall the Acting Black Crew fools who looked at me strange for listening to The Smiths, etc. when I was in college. Here's my question: Is anybody, including middle-aged members of the ABC, listening to Appollonia or Vanity 20+ years later? These 2 "artists" were on the approved by the ABCs list back in the day. {gales of laughter}_______________________

Nicole,

Thank you for your kind words about the post; I truly appreciate it.

You said, "Funny thing, I am widely known as being loving and generous, but they know that I'm not concerned with the well-being of others to the point of dismissing myself. Those people who slung that word around negatively have been eliminated, as I really can't endure misunderstood definitions of myself being slung around."

Yes, I've also had negative adjectives tossed my way because I REFUSE to do martyrdom. On the other hand, I've watched friends describe me as being "sweet as sugar" to them.

[Which I am. I've very helpful and kind to people who've been helpful and kind to ME. I won't pass the "sugar" around indiscriminately. Only to those who have earned it by their actions toward me. But the norm for AA women is to give of themselves for less than nothing in return. Oh well...I'm NOT the one for that.]

I had to throw my hat in the Smith fan club ring. (Also the Cure & Depeche Mode) Though Meat Is Murder hurt! How Soon Is Now was my theme song for a while there. Morrisey and Johnny Marr were offered $5M to do a reunion gig at Coachella which they turned down. That would have been something to see.

I am the sonAnd the heirOf a shyness that is criminally vulgarI am the son and heirOf nothing in particular

You shut your mouthHow can you sayI go about things the wrong way ?I am human and i need to be lovedJust like everybody else does

Thank you Faith, Tracy and LaJane and Rainebeaux. I can not begin to tell you just how much of an impact women like Khadija, Evia, Lisa, Sister Seeking have had in my life.

@ Rainebeaux, I am not certain what you

@ Khadija, I know I have stated this many times here on your site, but my family was one of the only things stopping me from truly living an abundant life.

Fortunately, I have always been a excellent judge of character. As a child, I did not have the luxury of taking people by face value, or first impressions. And this spirit of discernment has helped me navigate much through my teenage years up until now. So my problem was never inviting "more" trouble into my life, more so, a question of "what to do with the trouble (family) I already have in my life?"

I also think it is interesting that several of you ladies continue to share the various scriptures through out the holy books that is a guideline on how a person should live their lives. Because that is how I was able to go from over thinking and over analyzing situations to just trusting my gut.

One night I decided that I was quite familiar --too familiar if you want to be honest with the New Testament in the bible. As many of you ladies have already mentioned, AA women are the experts at being compassionate, understanding, loving, forgiving, devoted individuals. And when it came to my family, I was no different.

Well, that evening I decided that I wanted to know more about the God that caused it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights. The God that sent the ten plagues upon Egypt.

Because I felt like combining the two would be more beneficial than just mastering the one (the ways of the God of the New Testament).

I said to myself, even God knew how to protect himself and His people, demand reciprocity and distance himself from those who meant Him no good --before He became the God that we know today.

And after that, it became simple to just (as you said Khadija)"... simply exit-stage-right---immediately."

You said, "When someone tells me they do not like me I tend to believe them."

Yeah, I do too! LOL! And then I walk away from that person who let me know that they don't like me. End of story. Walking away from them keeps life simple and pleasant.

You said, "...People are listening and making changes to better there lives. I think this is what is upsetting them. They know more women are begining to see through the foolishness."

Yes, the tide is turning, praise God._____________________

Faith,

I'll see you one Depeche Mode and raise you one New Order! LOL!

Also, Faith, I admire the way you're holding it down over at WAOD. I truly appreciate the way you put a check on the very same behavior we're discussing (when it cropped up over there). {deep martial arts bow in salute}________________________

DeStouet,

I can't stress enough the impact that you and the other commenters have had on ME. These conversations have literally been life-changing for me.

To name just a few things that wouldn't have happened without these conversations: I would not have decided to write a novel. The idea wouldn't even have occurred to me. I would not have set a deadline for building my side business to the point where I can quit my job. THANK YOU for your participation and input. You and others have helped me a lot.

Fortunately, I've never had to use the bathroom to do anything when I am running/racing. But I've been told by a few folks that you can not consider yourself a runner until you have had to do relieve your bowels in the middle of a race. Sorry guys.

Since than, I make every single attempt to handle all of my buisness before the race, lol.

I also run the entire race (mind you, I have never run a marathon before, or a half marathon) but I can run as of last Saturday 7 miles, and as of this upcoming Saturday afternoon, 8 miles. (The half-marathon training program I use http://www.halhigdon.com/halfmarathon/

has me increasing my mileage by one mile each week. I am using the novice training program because I still have to be extremely careful with my knees.)

You can do it to. The secret is pacing yourself. That is why it's going to take me five hours to run the marathon. I run at such a slow pace. 10:08 minutes to run a mile. And that is when I am "booking" it. Shucks, I looked at the 2008 marathon results and it took some people 7+ hours to finish the entire marathon.

I'm actually working on a piece about that music genre and gender fluidity after I wrap up my guest blog stint. Thank you for discussing this because it was the impetus for addressing the loyalty issue.

I was reluctant to engage people the way I'd do at my own blog after the initial push back and disgruntled reactions but I realize that would allow for things to pass like at Black Snob and other blogs. I am not them and cannot tell anyone what to do, but I should have complete autonomy over what I allow on my watch. With respect to all other blog hosts and their readers - it needed to be addressed.

Real allies are made after being tested, after the disagreements surface and after the pleasantries have been dispensed. Total agreement on every issue isn't necessary but a core shared value and level of respect is.

I continue to be challenged by the insights provided here and I am very grateful!!

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not cast your pearls to the swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

Gospel of Matthew 7:6

The passage of the Bible that you posted sounds like what alot of black women are doing everyday, even or especially the most church-going ones! How uncanny. Even I have been guilty of that kind of thing in the past, but that is now a dead past to me.

Oh yeah Faith (ActsofFaith) and Khadija I really love your tastes in music!I wish I'd known and met you guys when I lived in NYC!

You guys have to check out Nick Cave especially The Birthday Party-era Nick Cave, unless you've checked him out already.

My fave Birthday Party album is Mr. Clarinet and I like the first Bad Seeds album that has Release The Bats on it.

And you must check out Einsturzende Neubaten especially the Halber Mensch album they came out with in the 80s. It's all in German except for one song but it's some of the best music that came out of the 80s.

I have always felt the way you did about certain dsicussions that are supposedly for black women and by black women that used to welcome black men indiscriminately! It's like you've said what I've always observed and felt about these discussions that took place on these blogs, before these blogs came about also. Because these kind of divide and conquer tatctics and whitewashing over bm's insults take place live too and on talk shows and such.

It's a shame really but they just want to make excuses for the bm who want to create division, competition, and damage.

I remember what Evia said once about the blog called Black Girls Rule, I really liked that blog because the author wrote some good posts.

But even Evia said that all of the IITs ran the author off that blog some time last year which caused her to stop dealing with it and keeping it up. It's a shame and such a waste of your time especially if you really like the blogging.

So to the black women who want to blog, delete and block all comments from anybody who has nothing but covert and overt hatred and condescension towards black women.

@DeStouet: sorry, forgot to clarify. The marathon running is a cakewalk in my eyes compared to what I have to do while becoming a "hood expat": essentially disown my family (well, actually moms and the babydaddy). I have the rare pangs of doubt, but now I'm at the point where they both depress me and I can't build my ark quickly enough (lol)! You know the old saying: if mama ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy.

Oh yeah? But these people aren't healthy at all, so how are you going to have healthy dialog with them? LOL LOL

Exactly!! And they are in the mindset of "I am right, no matter what you say", so why bother with them?

My favorite line when the "Blog Wars" was going on (remember that mess?) was "You know that once I turn my computer off, you cease to exist, right?"

And the endless back and forth - some of the comments left had to have taken at least a day to create - cuz, admit it, we love a good fight!

"The passage of the Bible that you posted sounds like what alot of black women are doing everyday, even or especially the most church-going ones! "

Amen, Amen!! That's why I left! Most of the cheek turning that I was doing was in the "chuuch"! I could never understand how someone could "happy holy dance" one minute, then cuss you out the next. And then, try to find a scripture to justify it! LOL!

@ DeStouet!!(sorry to change the thread, but I got a sister runner here!)

Yep, Ive heard about the 'thoners that refuse to take 30 seconds off of their time to use facilities. EWW - so I guess the straglers like me and you are running in it!

Another reason not to take the discarded gear from the out bin...

I am up to five miles 'old man shuffling' - trying to get my endurance up! Not too worried about speed, just want to be able to finish. I don't think the 5k will be a problem at all - I run one every day.

Good luck to you and keep up the great work!! Let me know how it all turns out!

OOh - I forgot Icehouse and Talk Talk! and you can't have new wave with out Roxy Music!

[You've reminded me of a silly, humorous debate I had at the time with friends. We were arguing over Philip Michael Thomas of Miami Vice. They thought I was crazy because I felt that Steven Williams of 21 Jump Street was more sexually attractive (for me, masculine and a good voice trumps "pretty" in terms of men--I was also fond of Ricardo Montalban for the same reasons---especially after I saw how, ummm, fit he was as an older man in the Star Trek movie---LOL!)]________________________

Faith,

You said, "Real allies are made after being tested, after the disagreements surface and after the pleasantries have been dispensed. Total agreement on every issue isn't necessary but a core shared value and level of respect is."

Yes, indeed!________________________

AK,

I'm doing well, thanks for asking! A while back, I started the practice of using vacation time to give myself frequent 3-day weekends, and I'm happy I started doing that.

Lately, I've been using the extra day off as dress rehearsals for what my weekdays will be like once I complete the transition into being self-employed. This morning has been a delightful example of that: Leisurely waking up whenever I wake up; then my morning workout; then a good breakfast; then work on my business stuff. At my own pace, and on my own schedule. I'm loving it!

You mentioned "Television's Marquee Moon." I've never heard of it. This points out the main difference between pre-internet and after-internet in terms of music. It's so much easier to zero in on music that you're likely to enjoy with the internet radio stations. Before, it was pretty much hit or miss with music. If you didn't happen to hear it on the radio or in the clubs, you didn't find out about particular artists or songs.

The down-side with the internet radio stations is that they narrow people's exposure even further with the narrow-casting. Unlike old-school radio, a listener has to make an active effort to hear a wide variety of music styles and artists._____________________

Rainebeaux,

Onward and forward! *Smile*

______________________

Nicole,

I'm getting the urge to do a music post. Faith is sooo much better at that sort of thing.

You said, "Signed,So Glad To Have Grown Up With MUSIC"

I 100% co-sign. I'm so thankful that I did not grow up in the current era--for many, many reasons. The current mass AA cluelessness about what actual talent sounds like is just one reason.

Ahhh, yes, the Pet Shop Boys. No make-up that I recall, but some often witty lyrics. I was always tickled by "It's A Sin":

"When I look back upon my lifeIts always with a sense of shameIve always been the one to blameFor everything I long to doNo matter when or where or whoHas one thing in common, too

Its a, its a, its a, its a sinIts a sinEverything Ive ever doneEverything I ever doEvery place Ive ever beenEverywhere Im going toIts a sin

At school they taught me how to beSo pure in thought and word and deedThey didnt quite succeedFor everything I long to doNo matter when or where or whoHas one thing in common, too

Its a, its a, its a, its a sinIts a sinEverything Ive ever doneEverything I ever doEvery place Ive ever beenEverywhere Im going toIts a sin

Father, forgive me, I tried not to do itTurned over a new leaf, then tore right through itWhatever you taught me, I didnt believe itFather, you fought me, cause I didnt careAnd I still dont understand

So I look back upon my lifeForever with a sense of shameIve always been the one to blameFor everything I long to doNo matter when or where or whoHas one thing in common, too

Its a, its a, its a, its a sinIts a sinEverything Ive ever doneEverything I ever doEvery place Ive ever beenEverywhere Im going to - its a sinIts a, its a, its a, its a sinIts a, its a, its a, its a sin