Hey chummers, i'd like to share some thoughts on cyberpunk, and you might find it useful(probably not, though.

I think cyberpunk needs to be defined in at least some consensual form, so here's that.

I dont't think that cyberpunk is about aesthetic, as there are certain styles that already represent it, even though some syberpunk fiction might be extremely different from another, atleast visually, yet still remain cuberpunk.Therefore, cuberpunk must be some kind of view of life, world and this other stuff, which is usually called philosophy.So, what then forms cyberpunk views? Well, the word "cyberpunk" consists of words "cyber" and "punk"(who'd have thought).

I'll try to explain these 2 views that form cyberpunk, starting with "punk" part. Punks represent the movement of independence, nonconformism, and other stuff i may not fully understand, as the only punk things i've seen were some drunk guys sleeping after drinking alcohol, in a very extensive amount. I therefore would disagree with the punkish point of demonstrating nonconformism, challenging "society", and all this actions, as dependent on other people and as a consequence of the movement becoming subculture the same way, as, for example, the "programming" or "IT" sphere of interest created h@xx0rs. Instead, i'd define "punk" part as nonacceptance of authority, submission and forceful coercion, there is another reason destructive provocation is not very suitable, and i'll explain later.

So, now here is the "cyber" part. I think cyber-ish idea does not stop on some certain technological level, and is extensive to any technology and knowledge, and i then define cyber as using extensive knowledge of the world to your advantage, and, therefore, while being able to mill yourself a fullmetal butt plug on a lathe may not sound very cyberpunk, to the extent of our technological developement of today, it counts. Cyber also does not end on the tech only, as being able to cure yourself, blend in the crowd, survive in the woods, or get a better job still comes under the "knowledge of the world". So, after all this wall of text, what is cyberpunk? It is an idea of independence, self sufficience, unwillingness to conform, of strong self, and action towards your goals and principles. As it is, you can even be a head of a megacorporation(imagine a coder working for google), dress in the high end clothes, do your job, and yet be cyberpunk, if you hold no respect of belief in such an entity, and not embrace it(or any other) in your mind.*

Thanks for reading all this, hope i got it at least partially right, and if not, feel free to btfo me at any moment.

*In case of clothes, it can be at least a professional requirement, though it can also be personal preference, as some "technoninja" clothes may not be very fitted in terms of utility, but be enjoyable for a person, and still be available. What i'm saying is, even though some actions, decisions or appearance may not be fitted for certain lifestyle, they still are fine, unless they serve some purpose, other than visually representing some fiction, in which case it would rather be against this philosophy, which, ultimately, would sound like "form follows function" in case of choice of tools or clothes. Basically, the same way that people who do cosplay do not use their costumes on a regular basis.

You define punk as a resistance to the established authority, but then okay established authority (Google CEO) as being punk as long as they "don't embrace it". It seems more to coopt punk to me than actually being punk. Reistance to established authorities doesn't look like being established authorities, but just passively "not embracing it".

In someways, I wonder if "cyberpunk" in this sense is like "e-mail" and "e-banking" and "e-$word". If you just mean punk + technology, its probably better to say punk.

Gibsons anti-hero's didn't have loftly goals based on a consistent developed philosophy. They where more just 'high tech low lives' than punks enguaged in direct action.

I'm trying to describe cyberpunk as a specific mindset, instead of types of action. You may not like your work. Hell, most people do. You may even be disgusted by it, yet in order to survive you still might need to do it in basically the same way you would struggle, if you were surviving in the sewers. The "high tech, low life" setting is so popular, because tech gives a lot of options, power, opportunities to an individual, so in a middleages setting there would not be much of a story as specific mindset would change very little. While the "low life" aspect is prevalent because of the basics of the storymaking. The main drive of any story is the conflict, and there is little space for conflict in lofty, prosperous life. Though, there still could be a hero, who has to work for a corp, lets say, because he's in debt, of he's got to held a friend or a family member, or he messed with the mafia. Though, even in such a setting conflict may easily lead to lower life.

A philosophy also does not need to be developed through cognitive action. If a person is very determined and strong willed, while open minded, which can be traits, acquired simply through his life, he'd be closer to this philosophy, then some guy like me, knowing a lot more about it, still a lot less capable for actions. A philosophy is how you see and interpret the world, not what you think of it, even though it greatly helps.

And i describe punk not as an active resistance to an established authority, but refusal of the legitimacy of any authority in itself. This is somewhat alike anarchism or ethical nihilism of sorts. The same way nihilist does not need to actively break social rules to be a nihilist, he simply needs to not value them as a separate entity, and, therefore, may break them if he finds it suitable.

“What people don’t understand is when punk started it was so innocent and not aware of being looked at or being a phenomenon and that’s what everyone gets wrong. You can’t consciously create something that’s important, it’s a combination of chemistry, conditions, the environment, everything.”

– Siouxsie Sioux

>You can’t consciously create something that’s important

“Punk became a circus didn’t it? Everybody got it wrong. The message was supposed to be: Don’t follow us, do what you want!”

– John Lydon

>Don’t follow us, do what you want!

Cyber:

“cyber: of, relating to, or involving computers or computer networks”

>"organically" create what you want, do what you want and fuck everyone else. Game over.

So I just replaced two ball joints today that I bought online and paid for by selling my blood plasma. Because I don't make enough on my corporate day job to pay the bills, put food on the table [i]and[/i] maintain stuff. I don't care if you think it's cyberpunk, I'm fucking tired.

Tho, I'd be probably very inaccurate if someone asks me what it's about.

I'll explain my POV on the thing.

To me, being a cyberpunk, It means to be against Injustice, Society Prejudices, and Corps.

Picture the new PT politics in China. It's injust, engineered by society, just to expand further the divide between social classes.

Also, It is about being Corp-Proof. Not feeding those Corporations that suck dry your infos for brouzouf, and sell your their gimmicky-tier products, like the iot Lamps that do shit. What's next, google? the smartphone that notificates me when it's time to go peepee?

Knowing how to protect your anonymity, not being tracked down constantly, being off-grid as much as you possibly can.

Beyond the "Activist" part, cyberpunk is also "Passive". What do I mean?

I mean, teaching yourself valuable skills, that may reduce your dependance on Corps, such as maintenance and repairing stuff. Its vague, I know. I am aware that some things are far too complex to be fixed by homebrew-tier repairs.

I'll take the classic exemple of "Computer hardware assembly service" totally the example of stuff anyone can do. It just needs to watch some tutorials on YouTube, nothing more. Assembling a PC is far easier now than it used to be. No excuse to pay for that.

Also, there is all the culture part that I won't develop, since It would takes ages.

Cyberpunk is complicated, but I think I said the most mportant aspects.

I think everyone has his own definition of Cyberpunk, which may more or less vary from the "official" definition. And I don't think it's a bad thing. It must advance, this culture must explore new points of view, without tarnishing it's basis.

Nah, cyberpunk is more of a certain state of mind, or specific kind of person, not some movement, that requires some fighting, resistance and other stuff. Cyberpunks may do that, if they feel like it, you by no means cannot be some freedom fighter, but what all cyberpunks share is a strive for life and distrust for corps, government and authority in general.

>I think cyberpunk needs to be defined in at least some consensual form, so here's that.

That's just not going to happen at this point. When the genre was born; that was the time to define it, and sure as shit it would've only survived if it was loosely defined.

Which it was with the phrase "high tech, low life." Beyond that it's just a case of personal preference, and always will be. No community is ever going to come together and agree on any level of detail, minor or major, past that. Best you can do is focus on what specifically appeals to you.

No one is cyberpunk. Cyberpunk is genere on non-utopian science fiction. We live in the real world, and larping as a sci-fi character is shitty.

The skills thread is pretty much a fantasy list for video game ninja. The reality is its not even desirable to become an authority in electronics, martial arts, computer security, computer repair, chemistry, physics , etc. economically and still remain a punk in any sense; Obtaining elite skill in one is enough to set you effectively outside poverty if you would just choose it. Not to mention all the institutions which deliver expertise in these things exist in support existing governance and structure which although shitty is not disutopean yet.

Well, having any of these skill never hurts, though their importance in our current world may differ, but it is useful nonetheless.

I'd agree on cyberpunk being only a genre, but it seems to me it would be beneficial to define some person(their traits, especially) for larpers to copy, instead of just gluing some leds on a leather jacket. To those who want to not just enjoy the genre, but to be something similar. The better question then would be: what traits do cyberpunk characters share in general?

To be adapted to a disutopean reality that doesn't exist because the read a gibson book?

I don't think you can be a cyber punk in that way. Case isn't very skilled at anything, he is kind of like neo, being taken for a ride passively. There are no corperations retaining ninjas preforming 'extractions'. black water or PMCs ?? I think cyber punk manifesto is far more obtainable standard, but far less exciting, rather than being a ninja mercenary , the government should leave internet alone and we should build social structures in 'cyber space'.

I don't think you'd be able to call yourself a Cyberpunk even if you embodied everything the ideal Cyberpunk hero embodies. The word has been over-used, and defies meaningful definition.

We do see other real-world subcultures that would certainly fit. Grinders, and Hackers, etc …

I've stumbled on an ARG in my town. It's probably run by some college kids, but it's interesting. There's these meshnet nodes, and some kind of a game of connecting them to one another. I think the end-game is to have a town-wide meshnet separate from the internet.

I don't know what they're doing, exactly, but it's either a skill-building exercise or the gamification of creating a local mesh.

OP here. I agree with you guys saying that it may be better off with cyberpunk as just a genre, but what to do about stuff like "cyberpunk fashion" then? Are there any ways to separate these things? Maybe it still needs some sort of shape for wannabes to cosplay? It would at least be something useful for our world, instead of just fantasizing about some retro-futuristic edgy outfit.

Ask yourself what you want from 'Cyberpunk Fashion', make an outfit, and then wear it. Post pics (with your face blacked out) and explain to people why it's cool. Name it something, literally anything other than 'Cyberpunk', and tell people it's Cyberpunk-inspired. If it's a cool look, and something people think is worth doing, you'll get other people dressing the same, and doing their own take on it.If not, at least you did something.

Fair enough, i do not mind such stuff, but there is a difference between an outfit *inspired* by cyberpunk(especially an exact work) and claiming that an outfit *is* cyberpunk. The difference is the same as between a LARPer or a cosplayer, and an actual reconstructor or knight.

So, strapping a cool piece of shoulder armor to a leather jacket and saying 'This is inspired by armor designs of the 1500's', is a dude just playing around with fashion and using unusual sources of inspiration.

Someone hammering out and wearing full-plate is cosplaying. Impressively, but still, that's a costume, because that guy isn't a knight.

In my mind, sewing electronics into a punk jacket and saying it's 'Cyberpunk Inspired' is a lot less autistic than trying to dress like a cartoon character and convince everyone you're a Cyberpunk.

Well, i too meant that copying the looks would not help the transition from fiction to reality, it just feels weird to me to watch people arguing if piece of clothes is "cyberpunk" or not, so i tried to define a mindset and circumstances in a broad form, but it seems i missed it all entirely.

I actually am not interested in cyber-looking stuff, maybe except for the ar and vr devices, in case of wearables, or alternative to a smartphone out of rpi or other sbpc(pocket pcs come to mind), but i know too little, have too little brozouf, and cannot get out of apathy and depression to get to do anything other than reading some different stuff on the internet while listening music. Hell, i cannot even get to installing some unix after i moved from mint ti windows(cuz gamez), and without finding some linux/bsd to meet my expectations, and therefore holding back, even though it sucks.

Though trenchcoats and other cloak-like stuff looks pretty cool, but is not suited for today's fashion, so dead end. Otherwise it is pretty easy to find some practical clothes for almost any purpose, which i, unfortunately, do not.

Well, even if i did, i really have no use for it, as i have noone to share files with, fm transmitter could be cool, but it is as useful as a separate music player. Does pi zero have enough power to play videos via, lets say, mplayer? If not, it already lacks an important feature compared to a simple phone. I guess i could help with designing some stuff, but my knowledge of electronics is very limited, and i haven't yet managed to put myself to learn this. I'm constantly stuck between deciding what to learn about, and usually it boils down to picking lesser things that can be done in one go. It constantly seems like i know a lot of different things, but do not know anything to really do something at the same time.

There is so many things to learn, like basic physics, chemistry, wood and metalworking, pcb engineering, learning python and/or C, installing fucking unix already, but it just fades away. Maybe you know some unix system, that would offer some versatility while is not harder to install then arch, and is simple enough to have at least potential place to start learning(systemd free,partially for this reason)?

It's not like i spend most of my time in social media, or watching entertainment videos, but it feels like little progress. I've started learning vim-like keybindings on palemoon in case i move to uzbl after moving to unix, but i do not get how that stuff works and how to control webkit browser at all, while gecko has some about:config stuff, that seems to do something, while webkit browsers seem different in that regard. It feels like i'll have to learn tcp/ip to manage al that, while i still have only basic knowledge, like levels, topology and other petty stuff.

>Does pi zero have enough power to play videos via, lets say, mplayer?

Yes, you just need to get the mpg decoder unlocked, which means buying a really cheap (like $2) license. People make media servers out of them.

You can also play just about any video game from the 90's on a pi-zero, and if you get the pi-zero W model, it comes with wireless internet and bluetooth.

You could literally plug that directly into one of those cheap phone power-cells and stick it in your pocket, and ssh into it from your phone.

After that, there's a million things you can do with it. Hook it to a TV and play games, make a short-range radio station, set it up to look for open networks while you walk around your regular daily business, etc …

It's not a replacement for your phone, you won't want to web-browse on it. But, for it's price, and being literally plug-and-play, there are a ton of little projects that require almost no experience and will get you started with learning command line and linux.

The best part, if you wreck your image, just copy a new one to your SD card, and you've lost nothing.

The linux versions available for the system are user friendly, and have a huge community supporting them.

There's no better, cheaper, place to learn about computers and electronics.

Well, user friendliness is not actually my way, as long as i do not need to write my own code or learn long and tedious stuff like installing gentoo, as there is the most complicated and bloated stuff hiding behind "user friendliness"(windows/systemd, for example), and i didn't get the thing about mpg decoder. Do i have to install some closed source program to be able to directly interact with video files on the web? Are there alternatives, what benefits would it give? Games are not that interesting aspect, and 512mb is really not enough to use even the simplest non text-based browser. I really do not see a reason to buy it, as i've already got a pc i'm browsing from now, and can use it as a place to learn computer software, as electronics is too complex to comprehend without deep understanding of electrical engineering and computer science anyway.

If installing gentoo is too long and tedious, user friendliness is exactly your way.

>i didn't get the thing about mpg decoder. Do i have to install some closed source program

No, you just have to install a key to unlock the mpeg decoder. The chip has a licensed decoder onboard, as almost all do, but because of the low price of the board, they didn't just buy the license up front like everyone else does. So, you have to register it.

>512mb is really not enough to use even the simplest non text-based browser.

That's … that's why I told you that you wouldn't want to do that … we already covered that.

>I really do not see a reason to buy it.

Yeah, and you're not really trying too hard to understand either.

No offense, but you should probably just not bother. Not everyone is cut out for this stuff.

>No, you just have to install a key to unlock the mpeg decoder. The chip has a licensed decoder onboard, as almost all do, but because of the low price of the board, they didn't just buy the license up front like everyone else does. So, you have to register it.

Got a link to a key generator? If so, share it. If not, shut the fuck up. At $3, I'm not going to put the man hours into cracking it, and I haven't seen anything online that suggests anyone else has either. The patents are up on that codec anyway, so I'm not sure why they're even still collecting.

Not everything ends on installing gentoo. I actually do not understand all of its features, but i consider going to bsd, if i manage to read something long enough. I prefer unix way to some magic tricks(not about gentoo, but about minimalism, control of your system, complexity and ability to understand whats going on), it is just not always about spending much of my time at once on something like that, the same way that you don't care about creating that keygen.

I guess i'll just install slack or openbsd(not that user friendly, just less user unfriendly), and wait for improvements in single board pcs, as well as some other tech stuff, while learning bit by bit, and one day i might get there eventually.

No, Cyberpunk is what happens when a computer costs less than a decent six pack of beer. The average person on the street has technology that, 20yrs ago, was considered military grade. That opens up a lot of possibilities among the lower classes for rebellion.

It's stories, no one is really LARPing that I've seen. There's talk about dressing Cyberpunk and whatnot, but no one is doing it. It's just a framework for thinking about what happens when your average street punk has access to strong AI.

lol bruh. The average criminal is not capable of engineering anything which is why they are criminals and not engineers. Ocean's 11, Matrix Runs are not going to happen. The closest you get are state actors attacking corps which are the new states anyway.

pirate radio DJs(yes, they are out there), these grinders, etc … They aren't technical geniuses. Your average drug dealer can figure out how to safely use chat programs to set up a buy. We now have drones you can buy at WalMart that are capable of delivering a payload of a cell phone or an 8ball of coke. Cyberpunk is about looking ahead and thinking about what that's going to do to society.

idk bruh, almost all cyberpunk works recently have completely stopped being creative and it feels like they are now all written by the same leftist kid about how a bunch of degenerates sets out to destroy the big bad evil corporations for reasons X, Y and Z but not to specifically save the world because they're edgy.

Now I don't care if it's gonna be leftist propaganda because I'm not some hive-mind ant-person from /pol/ or wherever that can't separate truth from bullshit and I can still enjoy something even if I disagree with it, but they should at least come up with a creative story and setting so that it doesn't feel like we're reading/watching/playing the same copy-pasted trash for commies all over again with the same old sickening 80s aesthetics which stopped being fun after the first few times.

You completely misunderstand. I meant 'The comment you replied to, where I explained Cyberpunk as the meeting between high tech and low life' is what it's supposed to be about, where I also admit that a lot of stuff that calls its self Cyberpunk is pretty much garbage.

So, what is this board really about? Is here place for cosplay a-la 80s(or edgy matrix stuff)? Are diy projects suitable? And if they are without electronics? Is learning how to get shit done irl cyber? Is it about literature only, or games, films and art also suited?

Thanks for reply. What i meant about diy non-electronics is useful and/or budget stuff like sewing, or machining, etc. The same practical purpose, not even looks really. What i wanted to know is where cyber ends. Coding must be cyber. Designing custom hardware is cyber. 3d printing might be cyber. Is machine tooling cyber? Or metalworking? Or sewing? Or even knitting? Is diy in general cyber, or only if it is backed up by some aesthetic? If there is technological aspect, then what level of technology shout it be? I love this place, but i don't really get these things.

No, but class is a part of reality. No modern social theory tries to deny the existence of class in modern society. It doesn't matter which flavor of /pol/ faggotry you want to bleat on about, class is a thing, and computers effected it.

>The ongoing devaluation of labor, begun by automation and with the promise of eventual completion in the form of robotics on the manual end and emulated brains on the intellectual end, coupled with the massive political attack on our unions, threatens to create a future in which the majority of the population is dependent on a wealthy minority by force of economics rather than through any explicit laws being passed. It's perfectly possible, and increasingly plausible, that we can all be reduced to a status functionally equivalent to serfdom without needing any of our civil rights to actually be revoked.

>Which is more or less the future that cyberpunk always threatened us with. You are not important. You are expendable and largely redundant. The only value you have to society is the value you are able to produce for the corporation. Fail, at any point, to meet the correct output as determined by some manager's cost/benefit analysis on your employment, and you are cast into the seething sea of the unemployed to sink or swim as you may in an economy which increasingly views you as an expensive and inferior option. There's always been an unspoken threat in our society–you will work or you will starve–but conditions have always been such that you have the option to choose between the two. Soon enough those options may merge to become one.

Someone on /tg/ wrote this in 2013 and it was so eloquent I had to save it.

For sure not. Your average drug dealer isn't using secure chat, they are using their regular phone on standard lines using regular language to call regular people, and meeting in parking lots of big box retailers to sell. Its comical to think of drug dealers using super elite crypto, because their clients are not capable of setting it up or using it, and currently their security needs don't generally require it.

The reality is that criminals are not picking up elaborate technical knowledge because if they had it, they would explore other economic oppertunties.

Well, let's keep things general, not so specific as a number. The 'computer revolution' started when 'regular' people could suddenly buy a 'real computer', with a modem and tape storage, in the 80's.

I'm being general, but in the 80's, there were certainly super rich who, if they had any idea the potential of networking, could have justified the tens of thousands of dollars on computer installations that would allow then real time access to the internet of the time.

That wasn't the revolution though. It's just not enough people.

Instead, the revolution took place with computers like the Apple II and Commodore 64. They allowed for a cottage industry of micro-computers and software to spring up overnight.

Suddenly, you didn't need to be rich, or go to Harvard or MIT to use a computer. Previous to that, you had to be both very rich and very smart to ever touch a computer.

Suddenly … incredibly suddenly, you just needed to keep an eye out for used systems you could pick up for next to nothing.

Remember, when PGP came out, it was still considered military grade technology!

Organized crime suddenly had their own networks of encrypted data. Books tracked on BBS style servers that only bookies even knew existed.

Meanwhile, you have a similar move toward organization with fringe elements. BBS systems that cater to gun nuts, militants, anarchists, etc … start springing up. People are finding that, for whatever their niche interest, there's a place online for them.

Hacker collectives rise. Phrack magazine, Hex-40, Cult of the Dead Cow … there is no corporate or military equivalent to combat them.

The establishment is losing their minds. Most US infrastructure has laughable security. Bored college students are taunting military sysops. Russian kids are hacking government systems to steal Unix System V to sell to the KGB.

No state actor, or rich corporation, is able to keep up with bored teenagers, college kids, and lonely homebodies.

For a brief moment in time, it looks like all the brouzouf is at the top, and all the power is at the bottom.

Governments begin to panic, while legitimate news organizations report to hand wringing old people that there are kids who could start WW III with a pay phone, and no one can stop them.

Then Bill Gibson looked around and said 'If we manage to survive another 100yrs on this path, it's sure as hell not going to look like 2001: A Space Odyssey'

30 years later, we still haven't blown ourselves up. Gibson's 'bored researcher' still has his finger on the fast forward button, and the establishment is still trying to come to grips with a general population that suddenly has free deep learning AI and block chain technology, and they have no idea, or control, on how they'll use it.

That is all pretty interesting, but i still do not get the wealth and tech level borders. If owning a lathe is not cheap enough to be acceptable, then are diy or budget projects from basic materials? Is the only tech level suitable if it involves at least microcontrollers? Does mechanical(or bio) engineering fit?

All these seem very arbitrary, and general, while lack of universal(i.e. absolute and not dependant on some stereotypes) description might soon lead to implementing new ideas or settings withing the genre, expanding it to some view that may not have been acceptable earlier.

I was trying to communicate that you're looking at it wrong (from my perspective).

The difference between a owning a lathe and owning a computer is not the price of each, it's that they belong to two different revolutions.

Cyberpunk is about the technology revolution. A lot of stuff that makes Cyberpunk compelling, bringing technology to the masses, actually started with the printing press. There's no major conceptual difference between the effect of the printing press and the effect of the home computer. Both enabled the lower classes to educate themselves, and communicate, without going through the barriers of the upper classes.

If you're asking what makes them different, the only substantial difference is 'One was mechanical and the other was with computers'.

It's not about 'tech level borders' it's not about 'wealth levels'. It's just about what's taking place NOW, and where the printing press was the same kind of effect on society, it was much slower, and we're done with that.

We're still going through the technology revolution. It is likely to be the last 'revolution' of mankind before the singularity.

My grandfather owned a lathe. There are laws in place to keep him from making a gun on it. It is a known quantity and legislation is in place and well understood.

Block Chain technology got big, what? A year ago? There seems to be no meaningful laws that govern the use of that technology. Governments and Corporations still haven't figured out how THEY want to use that technology, and there's 16yr old kids, in highschool, thinking up new ways to use it that they haven't even considered, and have no control over it.

People are making glow in the dark beer with gene editing. People are injecting chips into their bodies that can communicate wirelessly and no one knows if that's good or bad, and no one is controlling it.

That's the difference between that and a lathe, except we get a new 'lathe' technology every 6 months, and each one has the potential to change the world, and it's all cheap enough that just about everyone has access to it. Often it's free.

It's not that there's an amount of wealth above, or below, that makes it Cyberpunk or not Cyberpunk. It's simply that it's out there, available to everyone, with no authority controlling it.

Biology is starting to go that direction. Previous to the last decade, if you wanted to do anything meaningful with gene editing, at home, you were shit out of luck. The equipment and technology involved was just so expensive that only governments and corporations could afford to even touch it. You had to sign on with one of those two entities just to ever touch that equipment.

Then CRISPR came out, and suddenly we have people in basements, literally gene hacking. It's the computer revolution all over again. No one is able to regulate or control it. It's too cheap and easy to control.

Bruce Sterling actually predicted this in his book of short stories Globalhead. The story is Our Neural Chernobyl.

Go read a story about CRISPR basement hackers, then read an early Cyberpunk short story, and you'll see that Cyberpunk is about what happens when the technology that used to be out of reach to common people, and so was naturally regulated by the rich and powerful, is now in the hands of just anyone who feels like toying with it.

It's not about a line in the sand with money, or what kind of technology it is. It's about how, sometime in the late 70's and early 80's technology that was previously the domain of the rich and powerful, is now accessible to bored teenagers.

So, it is about the contact of peoples' imperfect ideas and basic views with the new-found part of the world, that was never thought before, but creates a conflict between them, as a consensus has not yet been reached, and views have not been changed? I think i would agree, though then "cyberpunkness" would depend not on the technology, but on social norms and disposition toward it, and its avialbility simply amplifies it.

I think I see what you're getting at. That it's about the impact that having a technology before the authorities have had a chance to decide how it should be used, might be the defining difference.

Gibson said 'The street finds its own use for things'. I think that's what he was getting at. The 'Street' isn't going to have the same use for CRISPR or VR that the government is. Their uses may be in opposition, and 'the street' and 'the authority' are on equal footing with any new technology.

I think what I'd like to see on this board is more about how we can use technology in ways that weren't intended, or even imagined, by authority.

I see people discussing building their own budget computers, even wearables, and I think about how the US government would love to just issue everyone a headset that tracks them, records everything they say and see, etc … and archives it.

Google, of course, tried to do that with the Glass. They had in mind that, if they could be there for everything someone thought to record, or communicate, then they could better control consumers.

Then these assholes come along and just build their own. They use them to pirate music and video games. They can communicate anonymously with them. They don't record or report any information to the government OR google.

Cool larping. IDK what your buying, but people dealing pot actually just use regular phones and text messages that are plain text. It was semi-insane but definetly cyberpunk that silkroad users where using tor, reshipping, and GPG to buy drugs online. I think this was inaccessible to the vast vast majority of drug users.

It seems implausible to me that the average drug user would even be using voip/line2/whatsapp let alone XMPP+OTR, E-mail + GPG.

Can you provide more larp information about what kind of crypto your dealer uses?

Well, it is not all about authorities, but for majority of people, as if it would not, then authorities would not find it a problem either. Or, at least they have not yet changed public opinions on the subject.

I think it is as much about authorities as it is about normalfags really. Like, not just about conflict of progress and authorities, but the expansion of something that challenges or is not compatible with social norms and dogmas, yet cannot be ignored or reversed(like, science and progress, as most notable example, though even something like discovery of america seems oddly compatible with this definition).

From looking at it? I'd say it was probably a barely-edited example on writing a chat program, running on a $3/month VPS with a let's encrypt certificate that let people basically ask 'Hey, you holding', and trade a bitcoin address.

Also, not weed. Weed isn't even 'drugs' anymore.

Your incredulous attitude is amusing. You must still think these are hard things to do, and that only specialized people do them. When, really, any idiot can set up an encrypted web page that allows someone to arrange a deal.

I really hope he trusts his VPS provider, but then I never said what he was doing was guaranteed to work. I just think it's adorable that you don't think drug dealers have web pages or use bitcoin.

Especially after silk road gave literally everyone the idea.

You're like someone arguing that no one pirates movies, because you don't know anyone that does, in spite of the overwhelming evidence that EVERYONE BUT YOU IS DOING IT.

I think your talking about 'counterculture', now. The question about that is: Is 'normalfag' culture organic, or is it another form of corporate control? What's 'popular' and 'normal' is entirely controlled by the media, so even just having media on the internet that's not under their control is a part of this.

I don't claim to be in touch with the OPsec and technical measures that people high up the chain might be taking, but their is an instutional culture passed from "OG"'s to youth in moving drugs, and the youth are not using encrypted comms at all. My bet is their security measures look like using poor children as disposable

>Also, using any kind of not self signed https for a webapp is retarded. Your not trying to get the EFF to vounch for your identity, your just trying to get PFS session to a client.

You asked me to guess, so I guessed. I'm not going to debate his technical decisions with you. I honestly imagined it was let's encrypt because it's the easiest way to do that. There are lots of tutorials, and even if you don't know what's going on AT ALL, you can follow them. It might not be the best option, but it's probably the first one you'll hear about.

> If you think the average drug buy looks like https custom webapp + bitcoin your an idiot.

I don't know what to tell you. Somehow it's no surprise at all to you that a teenager can set up something like this for a webcomic, but someone saying 'Just hit this webpage and maybe you'll catch me, and if not, leave me a message with a way to contact you' is IMPOSSIBLE.

They will go to a website rather than make a phonecall from their goddamn cell phone, which is all anyone has now.

Bitcoin is not the super secret awesome technology you seem to think it is.

>Its so out of touch with reality its crazy.

Because silk road didn't famously exist, and of course no one has ever done a smaller version of something popular for themselves.

>I don't claim to be in touch with the OPsec and technical measures that people high up the chain might be taking, but their is an instutional culture passed from "OG"'s to youth in moving drugs, and the youth are not using encrypted comms at all. My bet is their security measures look like using poor children as disposable

I mean, when someone told me to hit his webpage, I sort of shrugged. It was well after Silk Road, so not a totally new thing, and it's not like he won't just meet up and trade for cash, but he'll do bitcoin too.

I think a lot of creeped out college kids don't want to use their cell phones and drive to some totally sketchy fucking house. I mean, I know the guy, so I'll go to his house, but it doesn't surprise me at all that he'd arrange something a little more like a dead drop for a scared 19yr old trying to score E for his buddies.

Again, stop and really think about it for a second. How many webcomics with built-in chat and message capabilities can you think of … but where you're dealing with paranoid clients and the cops actually possibility caring what you're saying, it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to imagine that a full-on adult college drop-out would build something for his 'home business'?

You keep strawmanning my argument. I never said these things are difficult to do. I did say that dealers arn't doing them at large. I did say their is an alternative institutional culture with its own decades long cat and mouse game with US LE. What I see, on the low side of that culture is that these measures have not been adopted.

I do not think they have not been adopted due to their complexity, but instead due to two factors: 1) Conservativism of the Culturing owing to the stakes & 2.) The client base

When your freedom is at risk, betting on novel methods can be a huge mistake. When your friends are getting away with a set of best practices called "game", devianting from that to attempt a wholly novel idea is dangerous. Their is a decades long institutional culture of people selling drugs, who are adapted to conflict with LE.

Also, its simply insane to imagine that meth addicts are using websites, dead drops and bitcoin to compete transactions.

People are generally buying from dealers they know at parties etc. or meeting dealers in parking lots. This is all arranged by phone or in person. There are not dead drops and bitcoin. Telling your clients that they must aquire bitcoin then visit a webpage, the visit a dead drop location creates friction. They will just buy from someone else. Why are you being so weird about it.

Second, your fantasy just has a horrible incentive structure and bad technical details. https is the wrong technology for reasons we previously discussed. But, more than that: having a VPS, domain name to be accessible over clear web creates a super obvious paper trail that is risky to maintain, and their is higher visibility. Local LE isn't yet mining data around calls or texts to identify dealers, or at least not acting on it due to political consequences. I doubt local LE retains that capability yet. Also, Silk road was successful because of its reviewed, and arbitrated structure. Visiting your dealers webapp to make a bitcoin payment has no such arbitration, or review structure which means you must know dealer and might as well meet in person.

>I think a lot of creeped out college kids don't want to use their cell phones and drive to some totally sketchy fucking house. I mean, I know the guy, so I'll go to his house, but it doesn't surprise me at all that he'd arrange something a little more like a dead drop for a scared 19yr old trying to score E for his buddies.

Its so clear you have never bought drugs its crazy. You don't drive to a crazy house, except in movies. You find out your friends friend sells, and you ask for his number. You text him, let him know you'd like to buy some. He tells you need to buy this much for him to drive out to you, and you arrange to meet halfway at some walmart or w/e. Thats actually what happens. You do not actually visit a deaddrop, or spend time aquiring bitcoin. Can you imagine trying to convince a meth addict to aquire bitcoin? lol bruh. You have to take that brouzouf you have, and go one local bitcoins .com then visit a webpage, then go out to some abandoned area for your deaddrop pickup.

>Yeah, because people love signing into websites to buy drugs, and getting a certificate error screaming about how not safe, and not private, that page is. You're a fucking retard. Stop talking.

10/10 troll. Myself I prefer a verisigned certificate and a domain registered without whois privacy for my drug buys. I also require my dealers web app not run any non-free javascript. I wouldn't buy drugs if my web browser told me not too via certificate error. Also, I somehow aquired bitcoin to spend on drugs, because that is trival today. Also, I do not know any thing about technology, because I am addicted to meth. And I definitely do not believe that a deaddrop is a setup for a robbery.

I'm just reading this argument, and I think you need to take a step back.

>When your freedom is at risk, betting on novel methods can be a huge mistake. When your friends are getting away with a set of best practices called "game", devianting from that to attempt a wholly novel idea is dangerous. Their is a decades long institutional culture of people selling drugs, who are adapted to conflict with LE.

Dude, encryption isn't new. It's not novel. It's ancient. Bitcoin has been popular for almost a decade. Silk Road was shut down FIVE YEARS AGO. A million smaller sites popped up to take its place before it even went down.

>Also, its simply insane to imagine that meth addicts are using websites, dead drops and bitcoin to compete transactions.

This guy keeps saying college kids, you keep insisting meth addicts.

I believe 100% that college kids are way more comfortable using an encrypted webpage than cleartext phone chat, Facebook or something no one under 25 will do AT ALL, make a voice phone call.

You keep changing his argument to mean strung out drug addicts from some TV show you watch, when this guy keeps saying college kids.

>People are generally buying from dealers they know at parties etc. or meeting dealers in parking lots. This is all arranged by phone or in person.

You suggested that using a self signed certificate would be a good idea, and that just shows how pathetic and desperately out of touch you were. I'm not sure what else you think it proved, but if you want a TLS encrypted conversation, you're going to need a certificate, and if you want it to not scream warnings at kids, you'll just have to use the totally free option that doesn't even check your fake name and background info.

>having a VPS, domain name to be accessible over clear web creates a super obvious paper trail that is risky to maintain

Yeah, you can maintain all of these things with bitcoin, from Tor. It's not fullproof, but it's not that hard for a small time dealer to make himself more of a pain in the ass than he's worth. SilkRoad got too big, that was their real failure. If you want to be the local website the kids trust, it's not nearly as hard.

>Visiting your dealers webapp to make a bitcoin payment has no such arbitration, or review structure which means you must know dealer and might as well meet in person.

It's a matter of reputation. Someone says 'I set up a thing on this website, and it worked. Didn't have to talk to anyone', and that'll get them there. Then you just have to deliver. It's a drug deal, so some risk is just expected, but if a bunch of kids are saying 'Go to this site and this dude will explain how to buy without ever meeting', some will do it. If it keeps working, more will do it.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but you sound like you just didn't know this was a thing on campuses around the country for the past several years, and the other guy is just trying to tell you the sun sets in the west.

The market will not have it: Your clients will not tolerate the huge increase in work: Aquire bitcoin, Use webapp, visit deaddrop. And its just not the way business is done. People change the amount they are buying rapidly: They also want to see flavors /Quality before they buy. The technical hurdle is a huge deal. Aquire bitcoin is a huge deal. Silk road worked around this buy selling industrial quantities with super high quality reviews and arbitration. Its fundamentally a different market.

I mean, it just is working. I don't know what to tell you. Kids don't test Molly for purity. This isn't weed. You don't have to do bitcoin, but you can. Stop trying to re-frame this as something that fits your argument. Kids are going on websites and setting up drug deals. Just accept it.

No, actually, i am talking about the things most people do not care, so the authorities cannot yet influence these without pulling of CP or terrorism card. It is basically tho-way: authorities influence "masses" to gain their support to further enforce their position, but their influence spreads only through ignorance, so they have to struggle that hard simply to keep up, as humans generally become less stupid.

This is a retarded argument. Because we have good reason to believe that AES provides a good security margin isn't a good reason to believe setting up and HTTP server, web app, domain, tranacting in bitcoin, the real life acctions associated with this provide good security margin - the reality is plenty of that is novel terrority and its hard to say.

>Silk Road

Is different. Its a different market. Its technologically sophisticated people buying large quantities from unknown parties via arbritated reviewed market. This is not what the average buy looks like.

>This guy keeps saying college kids, you keep insisting meth addicts.

I am a college kid. This guy is retarded.

>I believe 100% that college kids are way more comfortable using an encrypted webpage than cleartext phone chat,

I am comfortable using virtually anything because I realize that local LE will not retain the capability to serveil traffic. Using a webpage might be slightly more risky inasmuch as it almost certianly becomes a federal issue, and feds retain a lot more techonogical capability than local LE's , but what do feds care about a small scale buy.

>cleartext phone chat

You haven't met any college students if you think the average college student even understands the word clear text.

>something no one under 25 will do AT ALL, make a voice phone call.

Have witness phone calls being made for deals buy people under 25. All the time. Your out of it.

>You keep changing his argument to mean strung out drug addicts from some TV show you watch

No. Beieve it or not, actual drug addicts are not insanely hard to find. You ever see homeless people shooting? you think they bought that with bitcoin on a webpage. My man.

People don't hang out it parking lots. But they sure meet in parking lots. Its a goto for anyone meeting anyone. Lets meet down by the walmart. Also, believing kids raised by helicopter parents buy bitcoin, then vist a webpage to buy drugs , then go to a dead drop location is far more retarded than believing they go to meet their friend and exchange cash.

>You suggested that using a self signed certificate would be a good idea

Nope. I suggested that using a not-self signed certificate would be retarded. Because the premise of the signed certificate makes little sense: Your not asking someone to vouch for your identity.

>if you want a TLS encrypted conversation,

Yeah Why? If you want encryption because your threat model includes the APT of the US Federal government sniffing your traffic then your fucked if your not on tor and possibly if your on tor , but if your using tor, you create even more elaborate hoops for your clients to jump through. And signed certificate is irrelevant anyway at this point - if your using tor you understand enough to not worry about self signed certificate.

>the local website the kids trust, it's not nearly as hard.

lol.

>like you just didn't know this was a thing on campuses around the country for the past several years

Point out one campus drug site on http clear net or any evidence any dealer has ever built a custom web app to deal locally.

I am not sure if you realize this is exactly the description of buying drugs i provided like 5 times at this point.

It just looks like, lets meet halfway at jack in the box. I suggesting the dead drop idea, crazy haunted house is ridiculous. And that people buy drugs from their friends, and meet their friends halfway sometimes.

You're a college student who's around a lot of homeless junkies shooting in the street? You set up a 'meet' in a parking lot? You don't believe encrypted chat is a thing kids would want, instead of text-messages?

From your own description, you go to a university with homeless people, where the kids have never heard of encryption (or Cleartext), and you meet in parking lots (with homeless meth addicts) to exchange drugs?

Yeah, I don't do meth, or go to school in the fucking ghetto, so maybe our experiences are different.

Have fun getting stabbed at Walmart while working on your 2-year degree in IT from Detroit Community College.

>You're a college student who's around a lot of homeless junkies shooting in the street?

There is a huge wealth gradient in the Bay Area. There are literally shit tons of of incredible rich and incredibly poor people right next to each other.

>You set up a 'meet' in a parking lot?

Litterally 24x7 i tell friends, meet me at taco bell. Meet me at starbucks. Its not so crazy like you imagine.

>You don't believe encrypted chat is a thing kids would want

This is retarded. Its a thing i wish people would want. But, the reality is most people are not into technology. Do not understand encryption, are not willing to spend any time clearly technological hurdles to do anything. Which is why strong encryption has existed for decades but not been adopted.

>you go to a university with homeless people,

Listing literally in college in a city that has an open campus. Visit literally any city. Wealth Gradient is a reality.

>where the kids have never heard of encryption (or Cleartext)

Go ask the average university student about the word clear text devoid of context. Believe it or not, the average college student isn't technical. There are tons of Humanities majors who are not intrested in technology. I meet technical (physics, math, engineers) majors sometimes not interested in or power users of information technology.

>Your average drug dealer can figure out how to safely use chat programs to set up a buy. We now have drones you can buy at WalMart that are capable of delivering a payload of a cell phone or an 8ball of coke.

wtf are you talking about. This guy is talking about the average drug dealer delivering coke by drone and using 'chat programs'. Later follow ups added deaddrop and bitcoin, i didn't make this shit up. But the original post is equally garbage. If the average deal was delivered by drone, people would be shooting down drones, and we would all know about it.

Average drug dealers have access to encryption. They do. That's a fact!

Some drug dealers are using those technologies. That is a FACT.

You are throwing your hands up and acting like an asshole becausee NO ONE YOU KNOW PERSONALLY is doing these things, while SEVERAL people make posts telling you that you are an asshole, these things DO HAPPEN.

Just shut the fuck up. No one else thinks these things, as reported in the news for half a decade, is nearly as crazy as you do.

>Also, It is about being Corp-Proof. Not feeding those Corporations that suck dry your infos for brouzouf, and sell your their gimmicky-tier products, like the iot Lamps that do shit. What's next, google? the smartphone that notificates me when it's time to go peepee?

>Knowing how to protect your anonymity, not being tracked down constantly, being off-grid as much as you possibly can.

expanding on that point, cyberpunk is more than just being off grid, its being off-grid while still going through the rid, one can live in a cabin in the woods using wood for energy and not having any electronics, but thats not cyberpunk. self sufficient in a megacity i where you take advantage of information systems to do your day to day living while still avoiding being dependent on the system is

you forget that smart health monitors already have that ability to tell you when its time to do things "for your health" and google and a few other companies have gotten in bed with health care providers to create healthcare AI and cloud data management

This is why I think the conversation about making your own wearables/portables is the most cyberpunk think on this site. I've been dreaming about making something I can carry around that lets me do my cyber shit, but doesn't rat me out. It's easy to just not do any of the stuff herd-tech does, but it's a lot more interesting to do it, but in a way that doesn't make you part of the herd.

Junkyard with mountainous pile of e-junk, mossy and grassy from old age. Abandoned and what seems to be unrecognizable and useless huge vehicle whose doors have rusted shut and tires gone - I sit atop its hood and rest for a while.

Blue-green atmosphere with a hint of golden radiance from the near-sunset sky, vegetation, and high humidity enhancing the saturation. Heavy clouds that never pour, I am enjoying the view of the seemingly noisy techno-urban city from afar along with its botnet monoliths and obelisks with small glowing red dots at its edges - standing vigil and awaiting to obliterate anything it deems undesirable or rebel.

I draw out of my pocket - a device considered vintage by now from which I surf the interwebs wirelessly through my remote meme machine stationed at the tail of the damned city - self-destructing though I've done a painstaking task just to stealthily secure transmissions through that modified ATH7x70 wifi card and a non-botnet and authentic rewrite of the entire IPV8 network stack to safely remove those botnet-enabling harmful proprietary protocols.

As I browse the interwebs, it seems that nothings changed since recently.

Ethical or moral nihilism rejects said morality in the sense that it cannot describe the world and is just the feeling on a subject. You could have googled it and it would take 5 seconds. There also are different types of nihilism under common name. Here https://www.quora.com/What-are-all-of-the-types-of-nihilism.

I think the fictional visuals are the problem. They're the coolest/most inspirational part, but they make us hold cyber things to an unrealistic standard. Or, they teach us that things aren't cyber unless they LOOK cyber. But like >>50442 shows, we're already living in that kind of world, but we dismiss it because the set dressing isn't there.

Personally I really admire cybergoths for trying to create a space where the physical reality lives up to the conceptual reality we're already in (TOR, cryptocurrency, data brokers). Its sad that we can't feel cyber unless we look around and SEE cyber, while at the same time, our physical reality can't look cyber because unless some critical threshold is met (think club scenes in any hollywood movie) or it'll feel out of place.