From the great biography of C. Frayling one can get the conviction that, at least, some people who knew Leone very well thinks or thought that he was poorly cultured. Screenplayer Vincenzoni is among them, but I seem to recall that he was not the only one.This was one of the surprises of the biography to me because none of the material of any kind I read about Leone mentioned that. But I have two interviews of the late 1988 and recently I got the preface to the italian edition of "The Hoods (in Italy "Mano armata", Longanesi 1983) and they are enough sophisticated not to ascribe them to an uncultured man. I know that professional writers can have blunt, correct or even create the prose, but the concepts are undoubtedly his... so I begin to think that, as many others, Vincenzoni is more unfair that true.What do you think?

this is a good one..!I am Italian, and I think you hit a sore point. In Kiralīs interview to Vincenzoni he said one VEEEERY important thing, that can be fully understood only by an Italian:Vincenzoni said " I am Venetian and Leone is from Rome".Vinc. wants to express his low esteem he has for peopleof the italian capital. This is an attitude found very frequentlyin northern Italy and is expressed politically in the fact thatwe have a political party, the NorthernLeague, which wantsseparation of the North from the rest of Italy. Vinc. has something personal against Leone, we donīt know thefull truth. Leone might not have been a star in general culture, but he HAS CREATED CULTURE in the ART of MAKING CINEMA, and that is quite a feat!!! Period.Do you know that PAVAROTTI, the greatest tenor cannotread notes? Is he an uncultured person ? No, his culturalachievement is TO BE A GREAT TENOR.Nighteagle

What is the meaning of "uncultured"? What is the meaning of culture? Nonsense.

In OUTW and OUTA Leone describes the history of the United States better than plenty of historians.

For example Leone understood perfectly the importance of railway in United States history (OUTW), long before the nobel award prizes economists. His metaphores about the growing of the united states, born between greed (the railway, Van der Bilt) and gangsters who became senators, doublecroussing their best friends in the way, prove long enough his intelligence.

Intelligence I said. And sensibility. Who can deny Leone's film poetry and sensibility?

this is a good one..!I am Italian, and I think you hit a sore point. In Kiralīs interview to Vincenzoni he said one VEEEERY important thing, that can be fully understood only by an Italian:" I am Venetian and Leone is from Rome".Vinc. wants to express his low esteem he has for peopleof the italian capital. This is an attitude found very frequently in northern Italy and is expressed politically in the fact that we have a political party, the NorthernLeague, which wants separation of the North from the rest of Italy. Vinc. has something personal against Leone, we donīt know the full truth.

This rivalry is true, it plays out in a joking and an almost snobbish attitude, high class/low class, type of thing, that has almost nothing to do with class but from which part of Italia you are from. I had a dear Aunt from a peasant background who referred to southern Italians as begin "de la bas" (from the bottom). That reminds me of a story from my childhood, my father once with a mischevious grin sent me into an Italian bakery to ask for "High Italian Bread."

« : February 15, 2003, 11:39:03 AM cigar joe »

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!

What is the meaning of "uncultured"? What is the meaning of culture? Nonsense.

In OUTW and OUTA Leone describes the history of the United States better than plenty of historians.

I have the upmost respect for leone and do not know much about his cultural capacities. But the fact that he can describe the history of the united states does not make him cultured or uncultured. Coming from an Italian point of view (alhough i am not Italian, i do have family there and their sense of culture is one which holds culture in high esteem, as nighteagle may back up,) maybe he was talking about passions for art, opera, music, great literature and so on. Leone was a great director but that does not make him cultured. Neither does his exstensive knowledge of 40's and 50's westerns. A vast knowledge in a small field cannot culture somebody, they need a broader learning of many of the fine arts, sciences, and philosophies.

« : February 19, 2003, 06:39:26 AM caius »

I hate signatures, so naf, but i had to put this up for a week or so to show my respect

Are you really sure that fine arts, sciences, and philosophies are "culture". Can you really define culture?

Do you know somebody who can speak about art, science and philosophie with the same authority?

Following this point of view, we are all uncultured.

Leone at least, as Nighteagle tells us, DID created culture in the art of cinema, while we are just here sitting and speaking about him.

Leone made movies. He never declared himself an artist, a scientific or a philosopher, and he was one of the best when he made movies. That's all.

Let's put it this way: if to be "cultured" is to have a "broader learning of many of the fine arts, sciences and philosophies", Leone was uncultured, so am I, so is every one here. So what? We all love Leone's movies in this forum, they're not only excelent in the esthetic way, but also very sensitive and beautiful.

If, in order to make a good movie, you have to be "uncultured" (not to have a broader learning of many of the fine arts, sciences and philosophies), hurra for that!!!!

As I said in my first post of this topic, the supposed uncultureness of Leone was a kind of discovery to me; if I may say something about the debate on what's the meaning of culture etc., my opinion is that the term is generally referred to the knowledge of the arts and sciences. And, to me, the point is that Leone was NOT so uncultured in literature and painting and music at least, as people like Vincenzoni affirm. And, as for his cinematographic culture, that was encyclopaedic.

So I believe that to make the movies he made, which I consider of the highest level in movie history, he could not be one-way-cultured (in cinema) and a sort of illiterate for the rest.

Leone did not paint, and he wasn't in a science research project. He made movies. That's all.....

I know many people who does not paint, and many more who's never been in a science research project, that I can't define uncultured in these fields.I never made a movie, but I have some (little) knowledge about cinema...

As for the funny episode of the book he showed in the interviews you know what Vincenzoni said to Kiral: that Leone never read the book and he knew about it from Vincenzoni... This is one of the screenplayer's revelations I can't easily believe.

I'm not trying to say a definitive word on the matter, I just have an opinion that cannot agree with what Vincenzoni and some other people say about Sergio.

Really interesting topic! I'm doing some work on Leone at the moment and was wondering...Would you say that Leone is making a comment about the differences between the North and South of Italy in his films? (Consciously or otherwise)

Dear Elhe is not. Leone is from Rome, the center of Italy, and Romans look at North,South, East and West with a nonchalant, ironic and detatched attitude, live and let live...

One more remark to the "culture" problem:the french philosopher Larochefocaoult said: the difference between a man who knows a lot of facts and a wise man is the same as between an index and a book.In other words: a man of culture is the one who asks such a "cultural" questions that the corresponding answer makes a DIFFERENCE. Or, conversely, when asked some question, a"culturally intelligent" person answers in a way, that his answer makes a DIFFERENCE. Now to Leone, in the early sixties the art of cinema was stalling, lack of creativity, lack of novel camera angles, boring music etc. especially in the western movies. Leone brought a cultural answer to the question "WHAT NOW???" in a way that alll theformal elements of a movie (rythm, music, camera angles,close-ups.....etc.etc) became completely redefined, so his answer made a DIFFERENCE. This defines him as a person of culture.

The main problem, to me is the very definition of "culture". What is culture? Is it a "broader learning of many of the fine arts, sciences, and philosophies". It's not enough. The concept of culture can't be defined by no one.

In the XIX century there was an unfinishable discussion between the french and the german intellectual class, the french told to the german "we are the civilization, you are the barbary". The german answered "yes, you are the civilization, but we are the CULTURE. You, frenchmen, have politeness and "good manners", wh have MORAL. They meant by that (and if you know the french you know what I' talking about) that the refined art, the progress of the science and philosophies are not CULTURE, but CIVILIZATION. Culture is something even more deep, related to a moral system and an esthetic vision of life.

Leone had this esthetic vision of life. You can bet your a.. that he had it. He belonged to what german philosophers considered CULTURE. The rest is CIVILIZATION. And german philosophers of the XIXth century knew a little about this.

good comment, amigo!this is another valid perspective of the problem, which fits perfectly the Leonian contribution to culture. He masterly expresses his vision of esthetics, which is why we all like his movies.