If we all play with hunters why would we complain about mages since hunters counter mages? Your post is as usual, filled with crap and not worth anyones time to read.

Paladins don't qq about hunter cc because they mostly play/played with hunters, your response is: hunters counter mages, so we shouldn't complain about mages. Is this a 1v1 game? Or does hunter class singlehandedly stop mage+sp %100-0 on palas during a deep?
People post general problems with the game that affect paladin class, they should include hunters because they have similar cc with mage, theirs is even worse but no one mentions them. It is worth mentioning that stuff so that people who make this game/read this thread know that all healers struggle with certain aspect of the game(instead of "for random reasons" not mentioning it)

If it's not worth reading, why do you read and respond to many posts I make?

No one survives sp + mage , deep+silence without peels with the exception of shamans.

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Again another %100 wrong post. How come you were left behind? You got double sac, freedom, bop;holy prism, denounce, repentance, blinding light, instant heals that double casted heals of other healers which allowed you to never ever cast in arena, that's all in Mop, and that's enough tools? Practical school lock immunity, every team sitting roots because of dispel cd , while your team has double freedom, bringing extra cc as healer, that is triple cc that doesn't dr?
Also, no paladins qq about hunter cc because they play with hunters and they are biased as fuck and their main problem is mages. You will rarely see a paladin on this forum point out how broken the hunter cc is. They have cross cc , like undispellable web that disables melee to eat traps, silencing shot to stop massdispel(which is gone anyway). You watch hunter streams , they land traps like %90 of the time, then they come to forums and say, well hunter cc is np because people can avoid them, except you eat 12 sec unavoidable cc every 30 seconds even they dont land the trap.

You are really wrong, I dunno who shit in your cereal but you clearly don't play a shaman or paladin. Shamans die without peels easier than everything except paladins. Priests druids and monks can prepare for a swap onto them and can do things when stunned/silenced. Shamans can't do anything but rely on natures guardian and try and prep the swap with healing stream or tide and riptide.
Paladins can't prep with anything but divine protection and i've died through that before from the ridiculous burst in this game.

Next lets talk more about why we are "left behind" as I said.

Double sac and bop both purgable and EASILY Purgable, I'm pretty sure 7/11 classes have an offensive dispell AND I don't remember if that's counting boomkins getting symbiosis purge or not from shamans.

You contradict yourself, you say I never cast yet 2 of my ccs are casted and require me to go way out of position to use they OPEN ME UP to being hard locked cc'd even harder because of where I have to move. Going out from a pillar to hoj has it's risks, now you're telling me your team can't stop and abuse the fact that the paladin is moving out from los and to you to cc you? Yes you can't ALWAYS stop them but if you and your team is playing right it's rare the paladin should be able to get these spells off

You say you play a disc and a rdruid. if your partners can't stop the cc you probably need new ones but How about we learn to shadow word death or maybe even spectral guise and then fear the paladin as he walks over out of position.
On a druid how about you preshift hoj so there is no rep out of it and this gives your team time enough to react to the blinding light that's coming in assuming the paladin hasn't been laughed at for being able to go near you.

you say practical school lock immunity you mean aura mastery? The ability on a 3 minute cd... Where as disc and monk is 45 seconds?

and ffs I don't care about hunter cc because if I'm not playing with terrible players they can walk ontop of me and eat traps.

So back to your point lets see.. we as hpalas still have no way to prep for swaps to us and all of our utility is not only dispellable it's easily dispellable nothing has changed for us aside from being able to use a lot of our utility twice as often.

Maybe I'm just not making my point clear enough but the utility that palas have feels drowned out and counterable by pretty much any decent player. I think Dakkaroth said it one time awhile ago when we had the shaman totem nerf thread, Pala will never mechanically be the best healer unless the game changes severely.

A big thing about rogue teams is that shroud lets you walk ontop of your enemy team and just begin a very aggresive playstyle with very few ways to stop. Even if you find the shroud and pull them out they're already in your grill and it's hard to punish that. I remember at least being able to prevent 1 of 3 three members of a rogue team from just starting ontop of your team.

And honestly at this point in the game Mass dispelling immunities, and shattering throw are probably not needed anymore. If they are needed the immunities just need to be reworked.

and these aren't just hurting paladins this affects most teams gameplay as well.

With that said.. The only reason shroud hurts paladins so much is normally (since pala play cleaves) your dps generally stand inbetween you and their team. where asnow jk their team is in your grill and it's harder to punish that positioning because they're all right there and ready to open hard with very little that can be done about it.

Obviously there are more things but these really stand out to me when I think about why other classes hurt palas so much.

I like these ideas. For me, I would like to see Aura Mastery on a shorter CD, seeing how Shamans have a 1 minute Aura Mastery, I would like anywhere between 1-2 minute CD on our Aura Mastery and have it break silences, because it sucks when you Aura just a fraction of a second too late and you're blanketed...

Radejjj, on 08 April 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Aura mastery cd should be reduced a bit, the priest one is like 45 seconds isn't it? I disagree with it being able to break silences though.

Why is everyone comparing the paladin aura mastery to priests and shamans? Paladin aura mastery makes the entire team immune to silences, interrupts, and 20% of magic damage if I'm unmistaken? Priest and shaman "am" only work on themselves, and shamans are dispelable too.

Why is everyone comparing the paladin aura mastery to priests and shamans? Paladin aura mastery makes the entire team immune to silences, interrupts, and 20% of magic damage if I'm unmistaken? Priest and shaman "am" only work on themselves, and shamans are dispelable too.

That should justify a longer cd yes, but not 4 times the cd of the priest or monk am.

you know that the priest version is the best cd disc have right? you know that when someone is dying you have shield and then you have to cast right? you cant compare just compare then...

I'm purely talking about the length of the cooldown not your proclaimed value of it for priests.
Priest were top tier without AM for ages. Instead AM got watered down to every healer but druid and a longer cooldown for paladins.

I'm purely talking about the length of the cooldown not your proclaimed value of it for priests.
Priest were top tier without AM for ages. Instead AM got watered down to every healer but druid and a longer cooldown for paladins.

because priest playstile is the same for ages too, i really wish they get rid of AM and bring back the playstyle that made me lvl this class.

Hunter CC is a little too much, I will agree with that point, and I've played with a Hunter every season and every tournament I have played in, so no bias there. I think Hunters need pet CC taken away from them or something of that nature. Good teams can eat traps yes, but the good hunters can make it so they cant. For example trapping off of Scatter and or Hunter CC is predictable, trapping off of DK Aspyhxiate or Pally Hoj, isnt. Hojing the Warrior before he can intervene is another way to stop it. Good Hunters will land CC, end of story. The problem with this, is mainly shadow priests being able to just MD the trap, which is being addressed which is good.

I think a major problem with Paladin in MoP is this, the dispell change. Paladins have always been the best healer for cleaves, no one can really argue that. But with dispell having a cooldown, it makes it so I can only dispell one CC for my team. For example, as PHD we have all cooldowns up against godcomp and we are on the shadowpriest, the mage polys my DK, I dispell him, and the mage already has one precasted, just like that, my dk is in a 4 second undispellable CC. This time allows the healer to top his spriest and bascially reset the game. I wasn't CCed when the mage polyed again, and if this were Cata I would of been able to dispell again and we would of won the game. With that being said I think Disc Priests outshine Holy Paladins in all cleaves now. They have dispell, but they can also Mass Dispell a CC again, which is gamebreaking. They are a lot harder to kill than Holy Paladins, escpially by rogues and wizards. They have fear, which goes great with cleaves, ex: fear out of trap, or grip fear from DK. All of this makes discs a better option than Holy Paladin.

ALl in all, I hope they can address some of the issues holy paladins have, maybe making rebuke a ranged interupt such as wind shear could be a start.

Edit: and Before people say l0l S12 KFC, the only reason that comp was retarded is warrior and hunter, holy paladins are just the best healer for a 1-2 minute match. Which is what most of our matches as KFC lasted when we grinded to 2600 last season.

Paladins don't qq about hunter cc because they mostly play/played with hunters, your response is: hunters counter mages, so we shouldn't complain about mages. Is this a 1v1 game? Or does hunter class singlehandedly stop mage+sp %100-0 on palas during a deep?
People post general problems with the game that affect paladin class, they should include hunters because they have similar cc with mage, theirs is even worse but no one mentions them. It is worth mentioning that stuff so that people who make this game/read this thread know that all healers struggle with certain aspect of the game(instead of "for random reasons" not mentioning it)

If it's not worth reading, why do you read and respond to many posts I make?

if u could stop posting on aj, or at least in threads u have no knowledge about, yeah..that would be great

Stormshiftx, on 09 April 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Why is everyone comparing the paladin aura mastery to priests and shamans? Paladin aura mastery makes the entire team immune to silences, interrupts, and 20% of magic damage if I'm unmistaken? Priest and shaman "am" only work on themselves, and shamans are dispelable too.

do you really think we use our aura mastery for our wizards in our team (if we ever make it past mirrors with rsham or rdruid) more than once in a blue moon, or use our aura mastery for the godly 20% damage reduction, you sir need to play a holy pally.

i wouldnt mind it if we had a disc preist aura mastery. that would be sick. but we dont cast THAT often so itll be op that the only time we cast we have a aura mastery, so there will need to be changes to make us cast more..but first they need to fix our many flaws.

Hunter CC is a little too much, I will agree with that point, and I've played with a Hunter every season and every tournament I have played in, so no bias there. I think Hunters need pet CC taken away from them or something of that nature. Good teams can eat traps yes, but the good hunters can make it so they cant. For example trapping off of Scatter and or Hunter CC is predictable, trapping off of DK Aspyhxiate or Pally Hoj, isnt. Hojing the Warrior before he can intervene is another way to stop it. Good Hunters will land CC, end of story. The problem with this, is mainly shadow priests being able to just MD the trap, which is being addressed which is good.

I think a major problem with Paladin in MoP is this, the dispell change. Paladins have always been the best healer for cleaves, no one can really argue that. But with dispell having a cooldown, it makes it so I can only dispell one CC for my team. For example, as PHD we have all cooldowns up against godcomp and we are on the shadowpriest, the mage polys my DK, I dispell him, and the mage already has one precasted, just like that, my dk is in a 4 second undispellable CC. This time allows the healer to top his spriest and bascially reset the game. I wasn't CCed when the mage polyed again, and if this were Cata I would of been able to dispell again and we would of won the game. With that being said I think Disc Priests outshine Holy Paladins in all cleaves now. They have dispell, but they can also Mass Dispell a CC again, which is gamebreaking. They are a lot harder to kill than Holy Paladins, escpially by rogues and wizards. They have fear, which goes great with cleaves, ex: fear out of trap, or grip fear from DK. All of this makes discs a better option than Holy Paladin.

ALl in all, I hope they can address some of the issues holy paladins have, maybe making rebuke a ranged interupt such as wind shear could be a start.

Edit: and Before people say l0l S12 KFC, the only reason that comp was retarded is warrior and hunter, holy paladins are just the best healer for a 1-2 minute match. Which is what most of our matches as KFC lasted when we grinded to 2600 last season.

I agree with the points made on the first paragraph. It is just game ruining for people who don't play with shadowpriests. Also, as you mentioned, spamming cc because dispel has a cd is really bad, I sincerely don't know why there is a dispel cd, dot dispelling is punishing enough as it is. If they think magic dispel should have a cd, why do people have decurse, dispel, offensive dispel and aoe fear break? These are all making the other healers less appealing, especially when paired with ground/shock etc.
One thing about MD though, sure MD deals with precasted cc that landed after a dispel, but it also consumes 1/7ish of your mana pool, you do it 2-3 times, you are oom for that game and inability to provide freedom that breaks physical roots is also not so good for cleaves. That said, I hate non paladin healers having a freedom, it's an ability that belongs to the paladin class.
Once warriors get better defensives on 5.3 and hopefully the mages lose some dmg/control, the game will be better for paladins, I appreciate the honesty though, as opposed to some mop spastics.

PS:I play without a shadowpriest/hunter, so I can relate to some extend how the game is for holy palas atm. I hate the aspect of the game where healers get one shot or spend the game on an unending cc rotation through instants, regardless of the healing class.

Hunter CC is a little too much, I will agree with that point, and I've played with a Hunter every season and every tournament I have played in, so no bias there. I think Hunters need pet CC taken away from them or something of that nature. Good teams can eat traps yes, but the good hunters can make it so they cant. For example trapping off of Scatter and or Hunter CC is predictable, trapping off of DK Aspyhxiate or Pally Hoj, isnt. Hojing the Warrior before he can intervene is another way to stop it. Good Hunters will land CC, end of story. The problem with this, is mainly shadow priests being able to just MD the trap, which is being addressed which is good.

I think a major problem with Paladin in MoP is this, the dispell change. Paladins have always been the best healer for cleaves, no one can really argue that. But with dispell having a cooldown, it makes it so I can only dispell one CC for my team. For example, as PHD we have all cooldowns up against godcomp and we are on the shadowpriest, the mage polys my DK, I dispell him, and the mage already has one precasted, just like that, my dk is in a 4 second undispellable CC. This time allows the healer to top his spriest and bascially reset the game. I wasn't CCed when the mage polyed again, and if this were Cata I would of been able to dispell again and we would of won the game. With that being said I think Disc Priests outshine Holy Paladins in all cleaves now. They have dispell, but they can also Mass Dispell a CC again, which is gamebreaking. They are a lot harder to kill than Holy Paladins, escpially by rogues and wizards. They have fear, which goes great with cleaves, ex: fear out of trap, or grip fear from DK. All of this makes discs a better option than Holy Paladin.

ALl in all, I hope they can address some of the issues holy paladins have, maybe making rebuke a ranged interupt such as wind shear could be a start.

Edit: and Before people say l0l S12 KFC, the only reason that comp was retarded is warrior and hunter, holy paladins are just the best healer for a 1-2 minute match. Which is what most of our matches as KFC lasted when we grinded to 2600 last season.

I agree with you on most points good hunters will land cc but it's also adaptable to eat traps off of other cc's I actually expect it a lot of times and if i've fought the team before I generally call formy partners early and they do eat it. But at the sametime... You could probably just remove or increase the cooldown of pet cc and it would be a start in the right direction.

Rebuke being ranged (even if only for holy) I think would be a step in the wrong direction.

I feel like paladins just need something that allows them to prep swaps onto themselves or mitigate damage when cc'd, Probably buffs to EF or SS.

Deep + CS dead.
Shamans have their 30 second cd last stand, wind shear, earth shield, grounding.
Druids can displacer beast, hots, NS clone.
Priests have pain sup, shields etc...
Paladin's eternal flame and sacred shield aren't enough to stay alive with and even if you divine protection on time he can still kill you through that 40% damage reduction if he uses his cooldowns.

Hand of Sacrifice not breaking scatter shot and other CC even if you see that you're taking the transferred damage, there's always a 1-2 seconds delay and they have time to remove your sacrifice and it was useless, this never happened before MOP.

Also the dispel change is so retarded versus warlocks, mages etc. Dispel the first CC and he has to sit the second one and you're just standing around useless: "fuuk mate, dispel on cd "

Continuing from the topic if i was to make paladins abit better of a healer i think

Divine protection should be 40% on all damage and the glyph should make it usable on stuns with a 3minute cooldown so it matches pain suppression basically because we have nothing in stun

Remove the cd of blind i mean it got nerfed for no reason sure the offensive CC was strong or atleast make it a 0.5 sec cast, 1.5 sec cast is just retarded for cc that can be so easily avoided it even has a 2min cooldown like what?

Edit : idea's from the thread so far correct me if i'm wrong with any of these

* Divine protection usable in stun or make it glyphable to do so and reduce all damage taken by 40% 3min cd
* Revert blind change or make it a 0.5 cast
* Aura mastery to break silences
* Reduce fear duration effects on a paladin by 30% like it was with Unyielding Faith before it was removed in Patch 4.0.1 (Cataclysm)
* Make sacred shield a real shield..
* Make freedom/sac undispelable or a cooldown to make them undispelable during that spells duration
* Divine plea to lose the 50% MS possibly lower it to 25%
* Make hand of purity a better spell to even consider taking over Clemency