General Debate 13 June 2015

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Comments (180)

rightoverlabour

Al Jazeera had a very good documentary on that debacle between Israel and the US Navy (Liberty issue). I am not anti Israel, but no matter how you cut it it does not look good from an Israeli Command and Control point of view. I suspect they did not want anybody listening to them, including friends. And the Liberty would have been listening.

Reid

Hellish New Statue Unveiled in London; What Were They Thinking?

This is a post less about a hellish new statue unveiled in London but rather yet another demonstration of how profoundly moronic people like Shawn, stephie, mm and Richard II all are in adopting their mental stance on assessing veracity of articles based on a site rather than on the article itself.

Of course, naturally, every thinking person with an IQ above 10 knows this is idiotic but nevertheless this is what fools like those insist on doing, so here’s one more example in what’s probably a vain attempt to drive the message home through their skulls, that their logic is totally and utterly fucked in the head.

The article of course is about a new statue in London. According to Shawn, stephie, mm and RichardII, because this site also contains this article: Ringo Says Paul DIED in 1966; this therefore means that one must be tewiffically skeptical about the posted article, meaning that the morons are logically deemed to be arguing either that the statue doesn’t exist at all, or that the statue doesn’t look like a dog from hell.

Good luck with this one, you mentals. I look forward to your childish denials that you haven’t just been logically checkmated on your own mental petard.

After every glass of beer he pulls a picture out of his pocket and looks at it.
After the 4th beer the waiter asks him why after every glass of beer he pulls the picture out and looks at it
Then the man says: It’s a picture of my wife. When she looks good to me I’m going home.
That is an example of the “The Power of Beer” Be sure to click the link.

Reid

Dawkins is nothing but a rank hypocrite for lecturing anyone about morality.”

For a guy who is supposedly a major intellect, the fact that Dawkins cannot see the glaring contradiction between the idea of a meaningless universe that operates with pitiless indifference and the concept of right and wrong, suggest he’s a bit dim.

Here is a good rule for measuring how much atheists really believe what they say. Wait and see how soon after claiming the universe is a meaningless accident they start using words like Good and Evil.

mikenmild

Shunda barunda

Dawkins is nothing but a rank hypocrite for lecturing anyone about morality.

He is also intellectually dishonest
A history revisionist
Plays to ignorance and encourages bigotry.
Is actually an “anti-theist”, not an atheist.
Has some very disturbing friends, Sam Harris being one of the most disturbing.
He commits exactly the same sins he accuses organized religion of committing.

Reid

Containment is dead. The UK tried it and it didn’t work. Now even though the Berlin Wall fell 20 years ago, the US is still trying it on.

The interesting thing is, the UK’s big fear was an alliance between Germany and Moscow. The would have created a power greater than the British Empire and that’s why the UK started both world wars.

But now the threat is, as the US sees it, an alliance between Russia and China. And so its continuing its containment/encirclement (through bases) policy. The Pentagram announced a few years ago now its lily pad policy for the bases.

But its all banging head on brick wall.

But because to Westerners its a Western head, the silly ole Western sheeple see nothing wrong with that at all. As a matter of fact the Western sheeple are so profoundly sucked into the propaganda matrix, the Western sheeple either see nothing at all, or if they do, they hallucinate it’s the poor widdle US of A simply twying to spwead fweedom and democwacy acwoss the world but the big meanies are stopping them from doing it!

“Reid, you and GR may like to explain where ISIS got all those T55 and T82 Tanks as well as other Russian and Chinese made weaponry including Ak47s from.”

Well yes, but that does not fit Reid’s bigotry towards the US and Israel, so it must be ignored!

@ Reid

“How the fuck else does it occupy and control all that territory?”

Easily. Most of it is empty desert. So they don’t actually have to control the entire territory, just key parts, and they can do that without any help from anyone so long as they have enough trucks and guns, all of which they can get easily without any help from the US.

Wow. Reid at 11:33am is quoting John Schindler. Are you coming over to the “dark side”, Reid?

Here’s some more from his blog today: Snowden is a fraud, on the tapping of Angela Merkel’s phone and fake NSA documents backing Snowden’s claims:

The document presented in public as proof of an actual tapping of the mobile phone is not an authentic surveillance order by the NSA. It does not come from the NSA database. There is no proof at the moment which could lead to charges that Chancellor Merkel’s phone connection data was collected or her calls tapped.

Got that? That’s the polite, legalistic way of saying the Snowden claims are backed by faked NSA documents, as has been clear for some time to anybody who understands counterintelligence and the SIGINT system. This should surprise no one, since using fake or doctored Western intelligence documents to embarrass democracies is a venerable tradition for Russian intelligence — the proper espionage term is Active Measures — and since Snowden’s been in Moscow for the last two years and shows no signs of going anywhere else anytime soon, two and two can be added together here.

…

In light of these revelations from Germany, it’s worth pondering whether Ed was always just a pawn, a talking head, for others with agendas to harm Western security. As we’re now in the Cold War 2.0 with Russia that I warned you about after Putin’s theft of Crimea, this seems like a more than academic question.

freemark

I wonder whether Reid, Ead etc have issues with substance abuse. They seem to display classic symptoms of paranoia, fantasy, aggression etc.
Help is available guys (?)…
I’m also confused by the logic of variously USA evil & stupid, Israel evil, all the sheepie just stupid, but Israel more evil and everyone stupid who doesn’t know how to read between the lines or find the right whacko-websites.

“IS RETREAT from global hegemony in America’s national interest? No idea has percolated more widely over the past decade—and none is more bogus. The United States is not headed for the skids and there is no reason it should be. The truth is that America can and should seek to remain the world’s top dog.

When the Soviet Union finally disintegrated in 1991, American hegemony was complete. The United States sat at the top of the international system, facing no serious rivals for global leadership. This “unipolar moment” lasted a mere decade. September 11, 2001, signaled the emergence of a new kind of threat to global stability, and the ensuing rise of China and reemergence of Russia put paid to the era of unchallenged American leadership. Now, America’s internal politics have deadlocked and the U.S. government shrinks from playing the role of global policeman. In the second decade of the twenty-first century, American hegemony is widely perceived to be in terminal decline.

Or so the story goes. In fact, reports of the passing of U.S. hegemony are greatly exaggerated. America’s costly wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were relatively minor affairs considered in long-term perspective. The strategic challenge posed by China has also been exaggerated. Together with its inner circle of unshakable English-speaking allies, the United States possesses near-total control of the world’s seas, skies, airwaves and cyberspace, while American universities, think tanks and journals dominate the world of ideas. Put aside all the alarmist punditry. American hegemony is now as firm as or firmer than it has ever been, and will remain so for a long time to come.”

Reid

I’m also confused by the logic of variously USA evil & stupid, Israel evil, all the sheepie just stupid, but Israel more evil and everyone stupid who doesn’t know how to read between the lines or find the right whacko-websites.

It’s perfectly simple freemark, it’s not the countries I’m referring to it’s the tiny cabal of evil people in key leadership, commerce, legal and political positions who control it.

The “whacko websites” as you call them are the only ones which explain what happens in the world.

You don’t really think the US invaded Iraq because it thought it had WMDs, do you? For example?

I mean, if you really do think that, then wow. I mean fuck man, what can I say.

But assuming you don’t think that, like everyone else with a 3 digit IQ, then the question is: why did it do it then?

And that’s what those “whacko” websites explain, while the MSM that all the dumb sheeple look at, continue to reinforce the obvious fallacy that Iraq had WMDs.

For example.

It’s not rocket science.

Unless you’ve got a closed mind.

Then, it’s not only rocket science, it’s also nuclear physics, interstellar space navigational problems and quantum mechanics. As people like Shawn, stephie, mm, RichardII and SGA ably demonstrate, all the time.

mikenmild

SGA
So far as I can tell, Reid imagines that everyone who does not think like him is effeminate and to his mind, that is how effeminate people talk. You might think it childish, but to Reid it is all part of combating the ‘evil ones’ secretly controlling our destinies.

SGA

“he “whacko websites” as you call them are the only ones which explain what happens in the world.”

Except, they really don’t.

“You don’t really think the US invaded Iraq because it thought it had WMDs, do you? For example?”

Yes, obviously.

“I mean, if you really do think that, then wow. I mean fuck man, what can I say.”

Start with ‘My Kremlin and Neo-Nazi sources are not credible.’

“And that’s what those “whacko” websites explain”

No, it’s what they CLAIM to explain. But a person with more than a three digit IQ would be skeptical of the mix of Kremlin propaganda, neo-Nazi hate sites, and the one you posted that said they were getting political messages beamed into their heads by the “Galactic Council of Andromeda.”

No truly intelligent person would take those sources remotely seriously.

“Conspiracy theories are usually hallmarked by their reliance on ambiguous, hotly disputed ‘facts’, their use of vague and blurry ‘anomalies’ that allegedly reveal the shocking truth, and, usually, the lack of a coherent, logical, internal narrative. They focus exclusively on those facts that appear to support the claim, and studiously ignore large quantities of well-substantiated and expert contrary evidence. They thrive in areas of factual ambiguity, and derive their strength from a feeble appeal to our ‘it just might be true’ suspicions.

Conspiracy theories fly in the face of this basic principle, and actively promote and defend the adoption of dogmatic, politically explosive theories on the basis of spurious, soundly refuted or scientifically unsound anecdotal evidence. (For example, ‘the twin towers fell at free-fall speed, which is only possible via a controlled demolition’. They didn’t, as a simple calculation and stopwatch timing of any footage of the event will reveal. Debris ejected from either side of the towers as they collapsed did fall at free-fall speed, but not the towers themselves.) Those who then attempt to refute these claims are dismissed as being narrow-minded or, in a spectacular example of circular reasoning, being somehow part of the conspiracy, as has happened to the New Internationalist – ironically enough in a dispute over a cartoon about conspiracy theories…

This is lazy and self-fulfilling reasoning. When asked why the scientific community (which alerted the public to ozone depletion, the link between smoking and cancer, climate change etc) would simply ignore the alleged evidence for these astonishing claims, conspiracy advocates immediately accuse them all of collective ethical cowardice, conformist narrow-mindedness, and a craven self-abasement to corporate or political power. The pernicious effect of corporate or political influence on scientific research and priorities isn’t in dispute here – but the arrogant, blanket slandering of an entire community is. Scientists simply don’t behave like that.

Darkest of all, there’s a branch of the New World Order conspiracy movement that seamlessly slides from hinting about how disproportionate an influence Jewish people have within this alleged global cabal, to the promotion of blatant holocaust denial propaganda. This is often done behind a smokescreen of legitimate anger about Israel and Palestine, or via the squeamish plea that ‘truth does not fear investigation’. The anti-holocaust denial laws of many countries are also cited as proof that ‘holohoax’ activists are in fact martyrs to the unbiased truth.

Perhaps holocaust denial should be ignored with contempt. But here we come to the central problem with conspiracy theories. By encouraging people to accept claims based on very low standards of proof, and to view all critical appraisals of the evidence as narrow-mindedness or, in the paranoid mode, as being part of the conspiracy itself, they open the mental floodgates to believing any claim, no matter how vile it is.

Is this a factor that the far right is looking to use to its advantage? It’s no secret that neo-Nazi groups constantly reinvent themselves to try to gain respectability and attract new support – and that they’ve correctly identified the Holocaust as a major block to their unfettered rise. Are they now choosing yet another ‘entry point’ for their ideas? Have they identified gullible ‘radical’ activists who believe in multiple conspiracies as being ripe recruits for believing in the ‘holohoax’?

There are striking similarities in the structure of the ‘holohoax’ claim and other conspiracy theories – a disproportionate focus on the alleged anomalies in the mainstream account, paranoid suggestions of a gigantic cover-up perpetrated by a secret cabal, and a consistent refusal to acknowledge or refute contrary evidence. Is the conspiracy theory mindset the ideal template upon which such neo-Nazi ideas can easily be printed?

Finally, conspiracy theory activism has psychological rewards for the advocate. It offers an easy and egotistical route to a heroic self-image, without actually having to do anything in the way of risky protest or original, painstaking research. After all, if you do become convinced that 9/11 was an inside job, what obligations does that knowledge place upon you, other than to try to create more ‘truthers’, and post yet more videos on YouTube?

Reid

I was wondering what this meant.

Nosty that was an article that was on several thousand sites. I just picked any one, not even caring what it was, since I don’t care about the publisher, I care about the information in the link I site.

So Shawn is lying, if he alleges I’ve endorsed that site in any way or that I’ve taken anything from it beyond what I cited.

Google the article yourself. See how many sites host it.

It’s Shawn’s proposition to audit the site, it makes no sense to me, never has, never will.

But Shawn is a liar, a defamer, and he alleges he’s a Christian. Some people might believe him, but you shouldn’t.

nasska

Shawn

It is hardly surprising that people seek alternative explanations for world politics when faced by a solid wall of leftist garbage masquerading as news & information. It is designed to titillate rather than inform while hiding what the social engineers don’t want to reveal.

I’m not suggesting that Reid gets it right very often but at least he tries to break through the sludge.

Nostradamus

Reid:

Nosty that was an article that was on several thousand sites. I just picked any one, not even caring what it was, since I don’t care about the publisher, I care about the information in the link I site.

Fair enough.

I googled the first sentence in the article “No world leader has been so demonized by the West over the past decade as President Vladimir Putin of Russia has”.

About 4,000 results.

It appears (from a quick survey of those results) that the article has been copied-and-pasted without attribution. Any idea of the original source?

I think a more accurate description of what Reid does is take the “sludge” as you put it and cover it with a crapload of even worse sludge.

I don’t think he’s trying to break through anything, but merely adopting narratives that affirm his bigotry towards Jews and the US.

And folks, don’t buy Reid’s lie that he is only concerned with leaders and a small cabal. Reid posted on KB the claim that Jews desecrate their own graves to whip up sympathy. Note that he did NOT say “Jewish leaders” or a global Cabal, but just Jews.

That admission alone proves my point that he is just a standard brand Jew hater.

I asked for several months for any evidence for this claim and Reid could produce none. That proves he is operating from pure bigotry, and not facts.

When he finally got around to trying to prove the claim he quoted the opinion of some guy posting on a Neo-Nazi holocaust denial site.

That is no accident.

Reid is just an old fashioned bigoted and racist Jew hater, and the conspiracy theories are just a cover to hide behind.

Reid

To be honest Nosty, while I understand the desire to obtain the original source, it makes no sense to me, these days. If it ever did.

Sure.

Some sources you can rely on. Like the publisher of the NZ Law Reports. You can rely on those. The outputs from Staples. Many many others. For professional and scientific material.

But for politics, these days, you can’t even rely on The Herald or Dom Post not to go completely OTT on some biased rant that’s wrapped up in their camouflage of being a “reputable” rag.

Can you.

So how the hell do you know that overseas sites like FoxNews don’t do precisely the same thing? You don’t.

And this is what Shawn hasn’t yet worked out.

Further, the fallacy that you can do this for all the sites on the interweb, is what Shawn relies on to lie and slander.

Makes no sense does it.

Yet he insists on doing it.

Just the kinda guy he is.

So this is why I rely on my own perspicacity to discern truth from falsity no matter where I read what I read. And from the fact that my reading yields predictions that pan out in the real world, it’s working for me. So I completely ignore the where. Only if you don’t have much perspicacity, will you run into trouble. Come to think of it, that’s probably why Shawn avoids the technique like the plague.

Jack5

… if we incorporate a silver fern on a black background on our flag a significant number around the world will immediately recognise what country it represents ..

Really, Pete?

The world has about 9000 species of fern. New Zealand has 194 indigenous species plus 35 introduced species (tiny Costa Rica has more than 900 species). Together, NZ’s indigenous and introduced ferns account for 2.4 per cent of the world fern species.

As an image or symbol on a flag, the fern could easily be mistaken for an open zip fastener (Hey Kiwi, your fly’s undone!), or worse, when on black, for a white feather, which has been used from time to time as an emblem of cowardice.

Does everyone think highly of the fern as a symbol? Here’s a random quote about ferns’ herbal or medical properties, from a quirky flower dictionary on the web (Auntyflo.com):

… Ferns were once thought of to be the most useless plants in the world. However, after further studies of the plant, a handful of medicinal uses have been found. For one, oil can be extracted from the roots of the male fern which is used to deal with parasites like worms in humans.

And the black blackground? Black was the colour of piracy, of the Jew murdering Black Hundreds of Tsarist Russia, of Germany’s appalling SS, of Pol Pot’s barbarians in Cambodia, of the Taleban, of al‑Qaeda, and now of ISIL. The black flag has had strong associations with Muslim extremism since 747 AD.

Reid

It’s not up to me to make it anything Reid, it’s up to us as a nation to decide, one way or another.

Yes Pete I already know that and I suspect everyone else already knows that, as well.

It’s just a transparent flag is a bit like turning up to a fashion event naked because you couldn’t make up your mind what you wanted to wear so you thought you’d be “neutral.”

It doesn’t make a lot of sense to actually do something like that, and that’s not being “intolerant” that’s just not being roaringly mental. Because if you did something like that, you would be.

And that’s not nit-picking or petty, either. That’s just the way life works.

Period.

Flag: a piece of cloth or similar material, typically oblong or square, attachable by one edge to a pole or rope and used as the symbol or emblem of a country or institution or as a decoration during public festivities.

i.e. Pete, a flag is something, it’s not nothing. Next time you might want to google, before you rely on your own mind, because it appears the latter is broken.

Flag: a piece of cloth or similar material, typically oblong or square, attachable by one edge to a pole or rope and used as the symbol or emblem of a country

A good definition. Not with an emblem of another country on the other side of the world, or so similar to a neighbouring country flag that it’s often confused. Symbols or emblems are best when they are noticeably unique.

wiseowl

So pleased to see Fran Wilde step down as chair of the Wellington Regional Council.
All ex MP’S should get the hell out of it as well.

Wilde like many other regional councillors has never understood the role of the regional council .It is disappointing she doesn’t pull out completely as hanging around as a councillor is like sep blatter hanging around in FIFA.

Reid

All ex MP’S should get the hell out of it as well.

Yeah it’s interesting to see the ex-MPs step into the local bizzo and immediately take on the senior roles.

Given the outrageous incompetence at the national level of some of those who then go on to do OK in their chosen local role, it makes you wonder what could possibly be hard about this politics game in the first place, if those people could do that…

Shunda barunda

And as the world sinks into the abyss, you’ll see where I’ve been coming from all these years, although of course by then, it’ll be too late to change anything.

Reid, why does there have to be human puppet masters behind it all though? I’m not suggesting that there aren’t some very wealthy very unsavory characters wielding a lot of power, but there are other ways to interpret why things are they way they are.

What if it isn’t the influence of any particular individuals that is the danger, but simply the system itself? What if we have simply created the perfect storm of economics, politics, and social “progressivism” and the whole thing has (combined with the rapid development of communication and information distribution) just taken on a mind of its own? something with the nature akin to an extremely aggressive virus that must continually expand and consume more resources.

One does not have to be a prophet to discern that the world in it’s current state is not sustainable, that a great time of trouble is more than likely within our lifetimes, but all this could simply be the inevitable conclusion of things that were set in motion before WW1 and just after WW2, we are not detached from our past no matter how much we collectively glory in our achievements.

Suddenly the book of revelation and its references to economics and human behavior doesn’t look so far fetched.

nasska

What interpretation do you make of Revelations Shunda? I remember trying to read them to mitigate the interminable boredom of boarding school religious indoctrination but I confess to getting little gain from my efforts.

Shawn has stated that they cover the religious persecution of Christians by the Romans or something close to that. Are there other views?

Maggy Wassilieff

@wiseowl 7:03

Clearly some of these antediluvian regional councillors lack self-awareness.
Fran Wilde failed to convince the good folk of the Wellington Region that her idea of a super-council had any merit.
Its time for her to depart the political scene totally. She’ll only stifle vision by hanging around on the Regional Council.

Johnboy

“When the “Lamb having seven horns and seven eyes” took the scroll, the creatures of heaven fell down before the Lamb to give him praise, joined by myriads of angels and the creatures of the earth. (5:6–14)”

If I had any lambs like that nasska I’d ship them off for a Caribbean cruise! 🙂

Johnboy

Interlude: The 144,000 Hebrews are sealed.

144,000, from the twelve “tribes of Israel,” are sealed as servants of God on their foreheads. (7:1–8)
A great multitude stand before the Throne of God, who come out of the Great Tribulation, clothed with robes made “white in the blood of the Lamb” and having palm branches in their hands. (7:9–17)

Reid

Sponge

Akaroa said “A flag is not a seasonal garment – to be changed when fashions change ”

That nails it. Look at all of the flags that have been proposed. They all look “trendy” based on current tastes. In 10-15 years time most will look dreadfully dated. Think about what was “trendy” in the 80’s and 90’s. All of the suggestions I have seen are what looks cool today but would never stand the test of time.

nasska

….”Yes- there’s an important central concept missing. The analogy is from animal husbandry. Great explanation here:

“Each year at the lambing time, there are lambs and ewes which do not make it. A ewe whose lamb has died is filled with milk, but will not nourish any other lamb she does not recognize as her own. An orphaned lamb could starve because no ewe will accept and nourish it. So the shepherd takes the dead lamb, slits its throat, and pours its blood over the body of the living lamb. Recognizing the blood, the ewe will now nurse, and save the orphaned lamb.”

So, by metaphorically washing themselves in Christ’s blood, believers separate themselves from their earthly roots and become part of the divine family of Christ. It’s a homely, rural analogy that would have made immediate sense to the ancients.”……

Johnboy

Maggy Wassilieff

@JB

JWs don’t believe in Chinese spirits or ghosts.

I was pounced upon by a little old Chinese Malay lady when wandering around KL Bot Gardens. She wasn’t allowed to actively proselytize but she dropped some JW literature into my bag. I asked her why she became a JW as she had attended a Catholic School. She told me she had been frightened all her childhood by the spirits that her family believed in. Sometime in her twenties she met some JWs who told her that there were no ghosts. She became a convert and has been prowling the Bot Gdns ever since.

Manolo

Slide by slide, Romney ticked through 20 mistakes, from Obama’s “Middle East apology tour” to the president’s lack of support for Iran’s green revolution to the administration’s infamous “reset” with Russia.

“With all that bad news, is it not true that arguably President Obama is the worst foreign policy president in history?” Romney asked. “I think he is.”