BSA says uniform shirts should always be tucked in

That was the question on the minds of hundreds of parents who have called the BSA headquarters over the past several months.

Their query: Does the Boy Scouts of America require uniform shirts to be tucked in? The questions are specifically referring to field uniforms (known to some by the unofficial name “Class A”) and not activity uniforms (“Class B”).

Problem is there hasn’t been an official policy in the past. The requirement was that the uniform-wearer must be “neat in appearance.” Most packs, troops, and crews interpreted that to mean tucking the shirts in, but a few didn’t.

Now we’ve got our final answer. Read the BSA’s official stance after the jump:

Effective Oct. 1, 2013, the official stance on the Boy Scouts of America’s uniform policy is that shirts are to be worn tucked in, regardless of whether the wearer is a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, Venturer or adult Scouter. All Sea Scout uniforms are designed to be tucked in except youth dress whites and youth dress blues.

In the past, guidelines have simply stated the uniform wearer should be neat in appearance. Neatness includes tucking in the shirt. This update will appear in related resources, such as the uniform inspection sheets, as they are revised and printed.

So there you have it: Tuck those uniform shirts in. Though the official stance is new, the practice is old as the BSA itself. Any time you see a Scout wearing a uniform in an official BSA-printed publication, his shirt is tucked in. Just look through the Boy Scout Handbook, Scouting or Boys’ Life magazines, a BSA Supply catalog, or any merit badge pamphlet, and you’ll see exclusively tucked-in shirts.

Equally important is what’s not being said here. The BSA doesn’t tell you to wear the field uniform at all times. Many units that conduct a service project or take a weekend backpacking trip will leave the field uniform shirt on the hanger at home. But that’s up to you (and your Scouts) to decide.

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My home troop has always had the policy of “Tuck it in or take it off.” Scouts seem to understand that readily, but they do need to be reminded.

On a related topic, I’d like to suggest that referring to the Class A as a “field uniform” can be confusing. Isn’t it logical to think you’d wear a field uniform in the field? Instead, why not call a Class A the “dress uniform” and a Class B the “activity uniform?” It’s clearer and requires little to no explanation.

Class A and Class B are discourged by National at all. You actually have 3 variations: Court of Honor Uniform (sash, etc), Field Uniform (leave the sash home, and maybe things like neckers), and activity – of Physical training gear as school used to call it.

I’m fine with tucking in the shirt, but how about BSA making shirts available for “big and tall”? My son is tall and has a long torso. The standard shirt…even a 2xl adult, is not long enough for him to tuck it in, without hiking his pants up and looking like Ed Grimley (…let’s see how many folks remember that reference…LOL!)

My wife went out and got similar cloth and added “tails” to all my uniforms. Something about making clothing overseas – they jsut don’t understand sizes. Maybe it’s time to bring making BSA uniforms back to the good ole USA?

I second your motion that it is time all BSA uniforms and all other possible items be made in USA. I am sure there are a few companies that would jump at the chance to supply the BSA and employ some who are not working now. It will not happen overnight and will not take much effort. I am sure if the BSA puts out a public RFP (request for proposal) they will get more than a few responses.

I think they would tell you that if they could get uniforms and other items all made in the USA, they would, but the companies that are capable of doing that don’t exist in the U.S. anymore. It’s hard to compete with cheap labor.

Remember, the BSA Supply Division used to do all their own patches (insignia, council strips, badges, etc.) in-house at their location in Charlotte (I know–I used to work for the company that supplied them with all their embroidery machines). Now, they farm it all out to other suppliers because it’s less expensive.

I don’t want this to turn into a discussion on Made in the USA, versus not, but the BSA is not immune to a lack of clothing manufacturers in the U.S.–it’s affecting every manufacturer. Heck, most Levi’s aren’t even made in the U.S. anymore!

I read the rationale at the link provided and what a load of hooey. The embroidered lettering is just glued on, the shirts and pants don’t fit worth a darn, the buttons wont stay on, the quality is in the toilet-etc.

I don’t think it’s as much an issue of where the uniforms are made as it is one of how the items are designed. They simply aren’t designed to fit all male bodies (like the fellows with long torsos, above), or any female bodies.

I sewed extra length on my husbands uniform shirt also. Question I have is why do they make the shirts with slits on both sides. These are typically made to wear outside your pants. Also does this apply to women scouters also?

Pants are made to be worn on the waist regardless of the decade. I find it hard to believe that your son’s physiology is so outside the norm that even a shirt made for giants is too small for him if he’s wearing his pants where they’re supposed to be worn.

Thanks for this, Steve. The made-to-measure shirt form is for men’s shirts only, though. If I had one made based on my “cross-chest” and “bottom sweep” measurements and no waist measurement (as the form is set up), the shirt’s waist would turn out to be enormously blousy — as if I were wearing a balloon — and the extra yardage of fabric would not tuck into my pants without wadding and bunching in a most unsightly fashion.

Even after decades of female membership, the BSA hasn’t caught on yet that women have full breasts, small waists, and full hips. We may have been made from Adam’s rib, but we have differently-shaped body parts that don’t fit neatly into his clothing.

Did you buy a shirt recently or use an older shirt? My son is 6’7″ and wears tall sizes in every other brand, but the XL shirt we bought from the BSA last year goes halfway down his thighs. At 6’4″, my 2XL shirt does the same thing on me.

I personally think it is a good move……especially since “uniforming” is Item 7 on the “Methods of Scouting” and should be a core practice of every Team, Troop, Crew and Pack. Even prior to this decision, our troop had this internal policy.

We female leaders with a few (or many) extra pounds do not appreciate being included in this. In the business world, men wear suits with tucked in shirts. Women may also, but we may also choose to wear a flowing blouse to look and feel more confident and comfortable. Shame it’s not the same here.

That is a big issue with many of the women on our committee. They wish that BSA would design a dress uniform more tailored for the female body. If they want the support of the mom’s, then they do need to be a bit more accommodating. Even the U.S. military has different dress uniforms for men and women.

C’mon ladies. We need to Cowgirl up! I am an Assistant Scoutmaster, Merit Badge Counselor, and one of the trips I lead every year is our 50-mile bike trip for the Cycling Merit Badge (yes, I ride). I wear the tan shirt, tucked in, with the belt. I’m packing a few extra pounds but I’m working on that to “keep myself physically strong”. We do not need an exemption because we are female. The Scout Oath and Law applies equally to all of us and we all need to set an example. Do I look “pretty”? no, and that’s not the point. When I put that uniform on I stand tall (all 5’4″ of me) and I wear it proudly. If you’re unhappy with the way you look, what is preventing you from changing it? We tell the boys, “Yes, you can,” well, yes, we can!

Women don’t need to look like frumpy men in order to be welcome I to the BSA. Professional attire in the civilian world differs in cut, fabric, style between men and women. In the military, women’s uniforms are very similar but shaped differently. They even make female ACU’s (combat fatigues) that are-guess what?-shaped differently from the men’s. Their equivalent of the BSA’s “class A” when I was in the Army was tailored and untucked. No one thought less of us females from wearing a female version of the uniform. I’ll say it again, women in the BSA don’t need to dress like frumpy men in order to feel like they are accepted.

I don’t agree. I am a physically disabled woman pushing a lot of weight. The shirts, when I get them from the web site are cut very short for me, I wear very stretchy pants, because I am extremely uncomfortable in tight clothing, They don’t even make pants to fit me. If they want volunteers, they need to consider the feelings of individuals. I have been told by the same man twice now to tuck it in….I simply cant, the shirt won’t cover me. Plus I don’t think we need to educate the young Scouts on ALL of the needs of a disabled person, ie. incontinence needs. Some things people want to keep private! I welcome any positive comments/suggestions

I totally agree, the female uniform shirts have a square hem and are shorter in length than a male shirt of the same size. I first bought a female shirt and found when I tuck it in (because I do think tucked looks better than not) and have to raise my hand for anything (salute the flag, scout sign to get attention, etc) my shirt is pulled almost completely out of my pants. The female shirts have a square hem, which gives it a neat appearance if you do wear it out. So, do you want generously sized moms who support scouts wearing it tucked and sloppy or out and neat? I agree, mens shirts should be tucked.

I don’t know about ALL, but some of the female shirts do not come with tails! They are made with split side seams which indicates untucked. When you try to wear them tucked, you’ll spend half your day tucking it back in. And these are the khaki shirts – not yellow.

I noticed the side splits also, and that indicates “untucked” to me as well. The fit of the ladies apparel is simply poor… S/M/L simply don’t work for uniforms (shirts and pants) in the same way they do for t-shirts.

Lisa, how are female leaders with a few extra pounds any different from all the male leaders out there also carrying a lot of extra body fat? Scouting isn’t the business world, and everyone is wearing the same uniform, regardless of oversized hips or belt-overlapping beer bellies. The sword of equality cuts both ways–if you want to be treated equally, you have to accept the bad aspects along with the good.

So your logic is that women conforming to the existing outfit is “equality”? By that logic they should put urinals in the women’s bathrooms. Because the bathrooms provided should be exactly the same, right?

Women have hips and breasts which men don’t have. It would be nice if the uniform for women acknowledged and accommodated this simple physiological fact.

Exactly, Jean. This isn’t about fat or fit, this is about curvy or straight. Women are not built like men, yet the BSA is trying to uniform us as though we are. The BSA official uniform simply does not fit most women, no matter the numbers on the scale. Uniform shirts for other organizations have anatomically appropriate seaming or darts to accommodate the female physique. Why doesn’t the BSA offer the same?

I don’t know about you, but for many women, it doesn’t matter how many “extra pounds” one is carrying – or not. The issue is that we have mammary glands which are oversized to feed our babies. Men, unless they are rather overweight, do NOT. I’ve known women who were size 0 who still had to buy a larger shirt because the buttons would pull every time they saluted. Imagine their embarrassment when they saluted at their first Court of Honor with their new uniform shirt and flashed their boys!

Women are just shaped differently, and I know many women who find that no matter what they do, they look horrible in the uniform. There are enough deterrents to women being active in the BSA with their sons; uniforms should NOT be among them.

I know that I have partially solved the “give a show” problem by actually sewing the front of my shirts shut! I’ve also had several other female leaders in our troop request that I sew their uniform shirts closed, too.

That means we have to struggle to put our uniforms on over our heads!

The alternative was to worry about us unintentionally providing the Scouts a sneak peek at the “girls”!

We, as female adult leaders, also want the same thing that our male counterparts want…..to provide a high quality program for the boys. We DON’T want to be worried about what we’re wearing.

Most of us female Scooters would appreciate having uniforms that are designed to fit the female figure. It’s a little tough to be extremely active with our Scouts when we’re constantly worried about popping a button!

Bryan, with the exception of a local service project, our troop ALWAYS travels in the field uniform (Class A) and when we roll into a rest stop or a McDonalds or any stop along the way to our destination, let me tell you, it looks really cool! It draws attention and the boys conduct themselves exceptionally well, opening doors for others and allowing people to go ahead of us in the line (there are 40 of us and perhaps only 3 or 4 of them). People will approach us, shake our hands, and tell us of theirs or their son’s experiences in scouting. I encourage all troops to do this if they are not already doing it. I always enjoy these moments, they are amazing!

It Seems That National Supply Should Make The Ladies Shirts Longer Then. I Wear The Uniform Nearly Everyday And It Always Comes Untucked If I Move At All. The Way They’re Tailored Now It Appears They Were Made To Be Worn Untucked.

Sorry Lisa, The uniform should be tucked in for Men, Women and Boys. The only time we should be different is sleeping quarters and bathrooms. Clearly the uniform is not for comfort. Lord knows i look better in street clothes, but we are choosing to be a part of Boy Scouts and should not ask for exceptions. Just Saying…

I totally agree with Rich and Janet, there is No option. and we travel the same way. when we are out and about the uniform stands out and is free advertising for Boy Scouts that we are still around and Proud of it. It also seems to make the boys act and speak in a better way than when they blend in.

It makes sense to me on another point. Which is, the boys and leaders represent Scouting to the public. In our uniforms, we should respect it as we would have the public respect it. If it is not neat in appearance then we are just a rabble but if we keep it neat then we are professional looking. That appearance says a lot about who we are as Scouts. Of course, when working on a public service project then the rules change as we don’t want to destroy our uniforms that’s why the difference between field uniform, and t-shirts and relaxed wear.

Then let’s make a ladies shirt that fits. I am thin and tall. I am swallowed up by a ladies small and and too um..endowed for a youth xl. My boys tell me a look like a big tan puffy marshmallow. :0)
Can’t we get a ladies cut that is a little tailored?

Find a local tailor to take in the additional material for a better fit, learn how to do this yourself (as I did), or contact Supply Group and order a Made-to-Measure uniform shirt. Different people are built differently, and its unreasonable to expect that Supply Group should provide every conceivable size “off the rack”.

Untucked as an accommodation for women – I am remembering my own mother who was pregnant with twins when I was a Cubbie and she was my Den Leader – is reasonable. It would certainly be courteous of BSA to consider their needs.

I have a question about the terms tat are used for uniforms. I have heard that BSA was moving away from the military type terms for uniforms…Class A and B and Field uniform. Last I heard the BSA wanted them called “Official BSA Uniform and Activity Uniform”. Is that accurate?

Sadly, I can foresee a loss of some female volunteers. I’m very petite and just recently have able to find uniform pants that I feel comfortable tucking my uniform shirt into. Most uniform pants do not fit women well. The newer ones that actually come in sizes instead of S M and L are much better but not everyone can go out and spend $40-50 on new pants. I had been told on several occasions that for women tucking was optional.

If anyone (female or not) is so touchy that they would quit over being asked to tuck their shirt in (which they should not have to be asked in the first place) then they probably don’t belong in a hierarchical organization in the first place.

Moody
When I first started volunteering as a leader 10 years ago, I had just had a baby – and there was no way I was going to tuck my shirt in. If someone had asked me to do that I would have been mortified! The way women look (or perceive they look) in the clothes they wear is extremely personal and the flipped nature of your comment is hurtful. I can safely say that a lot of packs in this country could not survive without female volunteers – I know ours wouldn’t.

I just posted about this. It seems the die hard “tuck in or tuck out” group is males who are involved more in Boy Scouts than Cub scouts, and they may have forgotten just who wears most of the adult uniforms in a pack.

I wore a military uniform before an adult scouter’s uniform and the female alterations were much more comfortable, and yes’m they included an untucked tailored shirt. Skills or fat, short or tall, I have never seen a female who looked professional in her uniform. Even with the newest updates, the uniform on females looks like they are borrowing their husband’s (too big) or their son’s (too small). I asked my local scout shop about tucking female uniforms and was told about the former “neat appearance” rule. After wearing it tucked for the past 12 years, the past few months I have worn it untucked and have felt much more confident in my uniform, happy to wear it and focus on my den and our activities instead of keeping it tucked in. Now that has to change.

I can understand that the uniforms have to be made considering all body types, and it’s obvious that many men don’t fit into their uniforms well nor do they look professional in them either. But the uniform developers really need to take a cue for the military and not try to make the female leaders look like frumpy boys. That might be ok in a troop with less female leaders, but in a Cub Scout pack with lots of moms, it’s obvious the BSA uniform developers don’t concern themselves with female body types.

“That might be ok in a troop with less [sic] female leaders…”
I agree with nearly everything you said, except this. Why would it be better for a lone female leader in a Boy Scout troop to look like she’s trying to wear men’s clothing? Doesn’t she look even more out of place as the only one dressed ridiculously than she would if there were a large contingent of women in the ill-fitting men’s clothes? I’ve been there. Being the only one looking like I’m playing dress-up in someone else’s clothes does not lend one confidence in an already male-dominated sphere. No matter how many or how few women are dressed in men’s clothes with a “ladies'” label sewn into them, it’s an image that is not good marketing for the BSA.

Sorry, you misunderstood. I don’t think a lone female should try to look like a generic scouter in boy’s clothing. She should look professional and neat in appearance, to include wearing a shirt that buttons on the left, is cut for a female, and fits properly. Imagine if we forced men to wear women’s blouses with minimal alterations; they wouldn’t like it just as we don’t like this.

Now on a different note, today’s boys don’t appreciate short shorts and knee socks. My boys would rather swelter in pants in the hot sun than wear the current shorts. I think switchbacks are long enough and ok, but another thread talks about older boys committing “social suicide” by wearing their uniform in public–it’s all about those short shorts, at least according to my 6 Scout sons and everyone in their units. Now THERE’s a uniform piece with lots of room for improvement.

Agreed. It’s hard enough to be confident in your teen years without having to dress like an überdweeb. Do you remember the original switchbacks when they first came out with them? The crotch hung nearly to the knees because they made the rise disproportionately long. My son could pull his waistband up around his chest (level with his nipples) without the fabric straining at the crotch. Whoever is designing the uniform doesn’t seem to have a clue, fashion-wise or fit-wise.

Funny, I’m 6’6 and I’m a big guy. Amazing the shirts I own (and I have about 10 of them spanning every type) stay tucked in. Guess what I wear them hiking, camping, meetings, Jambo, and much much more cause they are the Field Uniform, designed to be worn…in the field. Only glitch I have is the velcro thing that keeps the flap down on the back of the new shirts comes undone. But a little needle and thread….whalla fixed.

Ladies (and Fellas to be fair) with the extra few pounds: I have this strange idea… work toward the values of the Scout Oath and loose some lbs and become physically strong. Oops… did I say something unpopular in modern America? Probably, but truth be told most of you aren’t pregnant, disabled, etc.

Watch out world here comes the Internet thumbs down to this post, but later today will be the same folks with thumbs up at the drive-thru or the soda machine wondering why we have an obesity problem and health issues in America today.

Pregnant females… sure un-tuck when it can’t be tucked in no more… go for it. Or have your units make an “expectant Scout Leader” activity T-shirt for you. Your “activity” for 40 weeks is being pregnant.

I don’t think condescending comments are that helpful to this conversation.

The topic is that ladies uniform shirts are ill-fitting for overweight as well as thin women. I don’t think your suggestion of ‘loose some lbs’ will help the shirts fit any better on the thin women. The overall fit of the women’s clothing line is just awful, and the men’s clothing isn’t that much better.

While it is a good and Scout-ly idea to stay physically fit, it won’t change the bad styling of the uniforms. In my opinion, if BSA Supply doesn’t change the design of the uniforms, the solution is to tailor the uniforms so they fit you well.

My 2 girls and I all agree there. My bigger problem is the women’s pants for Venturing. There is nothing good to be said about them other than they dry fast. The fabric is so thin that you can see every pantyline and any cellulite right through it. The sizing is horrible. Having seen them on several other adult leaders, I decided to buy mine 2 sizes bigger than the size chart suggested. Thank goodness I did, the backside is way tighter than the size chart says it should be. Of course, the waist is way big now, so I just belt it down. I have worn men’s pants that fit better.

Congratulations on being the perfect specimen of the human form. You may wear a special knot for that. The rest of us, down here in Realville, who have real bodies (AND BOOBS, as long as we’re being Politically Incorrect) that don’t conform to National’s obscure and nonsensical “fashion” parameters, will continue to try to figure out how to adapt the uniforms to our diversely sized, non-cookie-cutter, and NON-MALE bodies.

Excuse the interruption from outside the US, but it strikes me that a lot less of the BSAs time should be spent discussing shirt tails, and a lot more in fighting for full inclusiveness in the association. Every young person should have the opportunity to benefit from scouting, regardless of race, color, creed or sexuality.
When you’ve addressed that, then you can worry about the shirts.

When European Scouting associations stop being fractured along religious lines, THEN you can interrupt us. Germany: 150 Scouting associations! Poland: 12 Russia: 12. France: 80! One for each denomination or ethnic group. Inclusiveness indeed! Buzz off. The most inclusive Scouting in Europe is the American Trans-Atlantic Council.

The difference is that European scouting associations don’t claim a monopoly on scouting like the BSA does in the United States. Even in Baden-Powell’s native Great Britain, the Scout Association doesn’t threaten legal action against other organizations calling themselves “scouts”.

I have a question about the last statement made in the article. I have always been told you must always travel in your official BSA uniform in case you are involved in an accident. If you are not in your official uniform you may not be covered under BSA insurance. Is this correct?

Some women are extremely uncomfortable and/or self-conscious wearing tucked shirts – some due to the fact that very little women’s clothing is designed to be tucked so they aren’t used to it, and others due to carrying excess “mommy” weight around the middle. I know women who refuse to step up and be a uniformed leader because of that self-consciousness about the uniform… or if they do, they simply keep the shirt pressed and neat but wear it untucked.

Thank you, coppercarla, for providing a link to a photo of an actual women’s-fit top. Men, please have a look at the photo and take note of its princess seaming and bust darts. This is not about being overweight. It is about having breasts, a waist, and hips. Think hourglass, not 2-by-4.

Women, maybe it’s time we boycotted BSA’s ScoutShops and began buying our shirts from the Army. Anyone have a link to an online supply store that sells the shirt that coppercarla linked to?

Why would you use the official blog of Scouting Magazine to tell us that we shouldn’t wear our field uniform while hiking or performing community service? Your opinion only.
Half of the impetus behind the Centennial redesign was to make a more activity-friendly uniform with tech fabrics and utility pockets, and the official activity uniform (khaki shorts and red polo described here http://boyslife.org/wayback/#issue=z2YEAAAAMBAJ&pg=54) was retired long ago.

And then you continue to tell us yourself not to wear the field uniform in the field: “If your unit is conducting a service project or taking a weekend backpacking trip, leave the field uniform shirt on the hanger at home.” Perhaps you meant “…you may leave the field uniform…” but that is not what you wrote.

I took mine to a seamstress in town who tailored the shirt to fit my body. I’m a size 18-ish, very curvy, and my uniform shirt fits me MUCH better than it did when I had to purchase it off-the-rack, two sizes too big so that it fit my chestal area

This is a blow to scouts with sensory processing disorder. I work with scouts on the autism spectrum many of whom have sensory issues. It may sound strange but their clothes can be so uncomfortable as to distract them from anything else that is happening. Untucked shirts, ripped out labels and inside-out socks are common but it’s all worth it if it allows the child to concentrate on the program.

Whenever traveling, our scouts wear their Class A with Class B under tucked in. We require it for all meetings. I don’t like to tuck in my shirt, but will when I have to. I bought a larger size men shirt and took it up on the side. Being short, I have no problem with it staying in.

Sounds great, but have one question. What about youth with special needs that have a touch sensory issue? I understand the tucked in shirt, but how do we help those scouts? Anybody who understands touch sensory knows what this will do to those scouts. How do we accommodate them and adhere to this policy?

You seriously need to take a look at the disability Merit badge and take some sensitivity training towards Disabled people. Scouts makes provisions to make all boys feel included according to their disability.

Seriously. Alterations. Find a parent in the unit, or a friend of the unit, who will work with the boy and make the alterations necessary to accommodate his needs while adhering to the spirit of the uniform. If National won’t work with us, we’ll fix it ourselves.

I’ve been a leader wearing many hats in my Pack for several years now, but managed to happily dodge wearing the official uniform until this fall when I took Wood Badge. Why? Because while considered trim by my peers, I’m self-concious about being thick in the hips (left over baby-weight I can’t seem to lose despite being a wellness champion for my workplace and a hiking club leader for my Pack). That weight is only accentuated when I tuck in and belt up. I hate it and I’m incredibly frustrated that I can’t seem to make it go away. But hey–let’s call attention to it by requiring me to wear an outfit that just isn’t cut for a woman’s body!

I’m proud of the hard work I’ve done for our Pack. I’m proud of my son and all of the boys in our Pack–what they’ve learned, the service they’ve done, and the characteristics they have started taking on to become good men. I just wish the organization I was so proud of was proud of women like me and could afford us a little consideration.

Bravo Jean! You clearly stated what I could not. As the mom of 8 (7 are scouts, one too young) I have that dreaded middle, and tucked in shirts just don’t help. Even schools who have uniforms at school have more options for girls than boys. I can see myself authorizing the pack t shirt more often during my den meetings.

And there really is a big difference between Boy Scouts and Cub scouts. Moms are definitely more welcome in cubs and hold more positions, so they are more visible. A neat and orderly appearance seems more appropriate, at least until they can make a better-fitting women’s shirt.

You are just in the wrong troop or council. Women are very welcome and some of the top leaders in my district. The district training chair is a woman and is arguably one of the most influential positions.

I was informed by me peers, both male and female, that the ladies are authorized to wear the shirt untucked even under the “neat in appearance” rule. The horizontal hem and hip slits of the female leader shirt can be worn outside the switchbacks.

I’ve also found an olive cargo skort that was more flattering for the mommy hips and short torso– and no big BSA belt needed. Another female leader in our district wears ankle length skirts and shirt untucked, and she looks neat, feminine, and official.

If you’re a look neater untucked as a lady, go for it. As for the guys, shirt tucked is the rule.

You know, what’s beautiful to me, Jean? Someone who will happily take care of my sons. Well maybe it will be grandsons (and daughters?) in a a few short years. If those hips are an “insignia” of that, well maybe me and my buddies just need to get a good slap in the head for anything we did to make you feel bad about that.

My question also. The cut on the women’s clothing does not fit properly, and yes, I have a women’s shirt that is split tailed and this gets little press as to it being “proper” untucked. Wonder why this was not addressed in the official statement?

I, too, have “ample” hips. I am also rather well-endowed on top. Because of this, I find that I have to buy a shirt that is way too big and have it altered. If it fits my bosom, the tummy area is voluminous. If I fit to my tummy, the buttons won’t close over my chest. And NOTHING fits my hips. So I purchased the shirt that fit my chest. My seamstress had to remove a full three inches from the long sleeves, and she tacked-in the tummy/waist area. And then she hacked off the bottom of the shirt, giving it more of a “jacket” look.

I will not apologize for wearing this altered uniform. Until National gets on board and realizes that women are not two-by-fours with two round-head pushpins stuck in them, I will continue to alter the clothing to my body. I refuse to alter my body to conform to someone’s twisted idea of what it “should” look like.

Nor should you apologize. With a 52″ chest and 38″ waist, I run into a similar problem that you do–to fit my chest/shoulders, I have to wear an XXL shirt which balloons around my midsection and waist. Like you, I’ve learned to alter my own uniforms to take in the extra material at the waist without it looking sloppy. It seems women aren’t the only folks with uniform fitting problems in BSA.

I normally wear a XXL shirt, but bought a 3XL Field Uniform (Class A) shirt and had no problem keeping my shirt tucked in. My understanding was that tucking in of the Field Uniform shirt was a rule that was established at the local unit level and enforced by the SMs and the SPL. I do agree that there needs to be something done to tailor these uniform shirts and make them more comfortable.

Both my wife and I are part of the Troop leadership. The women’s shirts are not cut or designed to be tucked in. The men’s shirts are cut differently on the bottom. How does this play out? If my shirt is untucked, it looks stupid. If the women’s shirt is untucked, it is straight cut and supposed to be that way.

And most men’s polo-style shirts are cut such that they can be worn untucked as well (square hems, notched side seams). That doesn’t seem to stop hundreds of thousands of men working in business casual offices from tucking in their polos. The cut of a shirt doesn’t have to dictate how its worn.

I agree with you – I have had surgery which caused nerve damage and it absolutely hurts to wear tucked in shirts, belts and waist bands. However, I have noticed that a tucked in shirt acts sort of like a sweat band and keeps the upper body sweat from dripping downward. It is the most uncomfortable thing I wear – but the cohesive uniform looks nice in a group.

It’s not “required”, but under that same line of thought neither are patrols, living the ideals of Scouting, having an outdoor program, advancement, associating with adults, focusing on personal growth or developing leaders.

Bob, uniforming has been listed as an essential part of scouting for awhile. Along with what it says in the bellow links, the thought is that it helps to eliminate boundaries caused by socio-economic status and puts all scouts on equal terms.

Bob – The BSA has had guidelines for class B (t shirts, etc.) and class A uniform. My understanding in reading the guide lines was class a shirt was to be tucked in (we use this a training and Wood Bad when class is required, such as American flag ceremonies). Apparently this was misunderstood (aka I can’t read) or ignored (aka born free / it’s not applicable to me). Belonging to the BSA is a honor and privilege, not a right. If you choose not to follow the rules, you may also choose decline the honor of belonging to the Boy Scouts of America.

Way to go all you who called national about this one. I train my adult leaders “Don’t go asking for a rule. Someone will make up one for you!”

It saddens me to think of that patrol of boys coming through town after a night out in the woods, fully uniformed, untucked, but otherwise neatly ironed with proper insignia (hand sewn by each scout himself), who will now have its patrol leader approached by some high-minded scouter …

HMS: I say, son, have those boys tuck their shirts in!
PL: But, respectfully, sir, the insignia guide in my pocket makes no mention of this.
HMS: It will, boy. I called National and made sure of it. Now straighten yourselves up.
PL: But sir, my boys have worked hard ironing their shirts and shorts to look sharp today. Tucking these high tech fabrics makes them all wrinkle something fierce.
HMS: What gives you the right to define ‘neat’? You act like you boys are leaders of this movement. How dare you? If you are one percent off, you’d might as well not be uniformed at all.
PL: Well sir, out of kindness we’ll tuck in. … [commands scouts, who obey … Tenderfoots grudgingly] … But, sir, if I may?
HMS: Yes, scout.
PL: I see ten of your fifteen knots are upside down. My APL and QM have sewing kits and would be happy to correct those for your before we go on parade.
HMS: Never mind that, son. NObody ever second-guesses a fella with five rows of knots.

We can all sit around here making up as many scenarios as we want. Some make sense (pregnant ladies) some are dumb (boys coming out of the woods with neatly ironed shirts). If your hypothetical scouts are magical enough to get into and out of the woods with shirts still ironed, then, yes, they can tuck in the shirts. If a lady is pregnant I think we all know that no one is going to honest-to-God approach her and ask he to tuck her shirt in.
We are people with brains (mostly) and the absent-minded ones on both ends of the spectrum will be kept in line by the group; your hypothetical scouts by uniform-minded people on one end, and on the other end a guy giving a pregnant lady grief would be set straight.
The simple fact of the matter is that tucked is the near-universal standard already, but apparently enough lazy squeaky wheels have been e-mailing National and Scouting Mag looking for a divine concession to go untucked that National had to give a definitive answer. That’s not National’s fault.

MR. “V” – I AGREE ON TUCKING IN “CLASS A” SHIRTS FOR BOYS AND MEN; WOMEN NEED TO DO WHAT THEIR UNINFORM IS DESIGNED TO DO. HOW ABOUT BUTTONING THE “CLASS A” SHIRT? ALL BUTTONS BUTTONED EXCEPT THE TOP ONE – WE’RE NOT GANG MEMBERS. HOW ABOUT PANTS? ABSOLUTELY NO SAGGING, AND FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE, ABSOLUTELY NO JEANS!! NOTHING LOOKS BETTER THAN THE COMPLETE BSA UNIFORM, INCLUDING A BSA WEB OR LEATHER BELT AND BSA SOCKS, LEATHER SHOES/BOOTS – NOT SNEAKERS! AND SOME SORT OF UNIT-ISSUED OR BSA CAP OR HAT! BY THE WAY, WHETHER FIELD UNIFORM OR “CLASS A” THIS IS A COMPLETELY UNIT LEVEL DECISION WHAT THEY ARE CALLED!!

WRONG! Class A is a military term. Since the seventies, when some were trying to depict Boy Scouts as a paramilitary organization, the officials over Scouting got away from militilary terms and wearing military camoflage. The terms were defined to give a clear meaning, while letting the military have their own terminology. Oddly, the redesign of the uniform brought a distinct look from the USMC, it appears.

Eloy is a man of wisdom, I agree with everything, except when he mentions Class A uniform. The BSA isn’t a military organization and Class A refers to military uniforms. I would like the BSA to bring back the neckerchief, but that is my idea.

As a general rule, good. People getting over zealous on it bad. There are times uniforms are required (on trips while traveling ) but may be neater out. Ie spills etc. on pants also female leaders who may be pregnant, the need to wear under layers for warmth etc. Anytime I have instructed a scout on the correct way to do something they comply willingly as much as possible. They want to do it right. Do you toss or embarrass a good person because of the way the look? Uniforms don’t fit every body the same. What is inside the uniform is what counts.

bob basement….please read page 29 in the WEBELOS Handbook under You New WEBELOS Uniform and Insignia. First sentence: As a WEBELOS Scout, you may chose between two uniforms. One is the blue uniform you wore as a Cub Scout. The other is the uniform you can take into Boy Scouting- the tan Boy Scout shirt and olive green trousers……

I am a SPL in my troop for two years and halfway through my Eagle Scout Project. I have always required that if any boys from my unit are wearing the class A it must be buttoned and tucked in neatly. At first they disapproved of my attention to detail ,but they have gotten used to it.

“…If your unit is conducting a service project or taking a weekend backpacking trip, leave the field uniform shirt on the hanger at home.”

Why, Bryan?

Service projects are often the most visible activities Scouts are involved in, and they’re often in public. Being in public, they make great “Kodak moments.” But it’s hardly a plug for Scouting when Scouts aren’t in uniform.

Uniforms used to be made rugged enough for hikes and campouts. Isn’t that, in fact, why we have dual-purpose pants now? You know–the zip-the-legs-off kind? In fact, I just pulled out my own “Handbook for Boys” (Fifth Edition) and turned to page 51. There it is: “The Scout uniform…makes you want to go HIKING and CAMPING… It is made of rugged, tough material, that is SUITED FOR OUTDOOR USE.” (So much for the claim of “never”!) Need more? Let’s turn to page 52 in the same handbook: “When to Wear the Uniform. 1. In all formal Scouting activities such as Patrol, Troop or Tribe meetings, HIKES, CAMPS, demonstrations, etc.” (CAPITALIZING mine)

I need a Wisconsin Scouter to send me some cheese for all this WHINE. Wear the uniform as best you can. Others shouldn’t care what animal critter your bum resembles. Instead you should exude enough pride and self-esteem that you wear it proudly AND correctly. Complaining about it gives young minds doubts about your integrity and support of the ENTIRE program. You are defeating the exact program that you claim to hold so dear.

Because I have lodged a complaint that my very ill-fitting shirt looks awful, that makes the kids doubt my integrity? it makes them doubt my support despite my running the popcorn program for years, being their honest treasurer, and leading them on nearly 50 miles of hikes in the past year alone? I ask for a shirt that fits a female frame and I’m suddenly defeating years of work to build young men of courage and character….

I think this says far more about what YOU think of women in scouting than what the kids think.

I say “BRAVO”, as a leader, program director and long time scout and scooter, it has always bothered me to see boys and adults wearing the uniform untouched. I ask folks to “please” tuck it in. And at camp I am insistent on this point for retreat and dinner. I also believe that ladies shirts are cut so they are not to be tucked, and one must know the difference.

Women’s fashion has ALWAYS been different than men’s. Just look back at old magazines of civilian and military attire – women’s blouses were worn “untucked” and they looked neat and official – they are blouses after all. Men’s shirts look neater tucked in and tradition bears this out as well.

A man whose shirt is worn untucked tends to look like anything from super-casual to a complete slob – definitely not the look of an organized troop. I tuck my shirt in because it shows pride in my appearance, that I care about my Troop’s appearance, and that I cheerfully obey the guidelines for uniforming as well.

A Scout is “obedient” means that we cheerfully abide by the rules of society and the rules of organizations to which we belong. There are plenty of other opportunities to be expressive individuals without quibbling over uniforms which were obviously intended to be… uniform in appearance.

Can someone please, NOW, tell National Supply of this requirement? The new Field Uniform Shirts they sell all are square cut on the bottom (implying, of course, UNtucked) AND are too short to actually maintained tucked in for more than 5 minutes unless you are supine and not moving.

Quite frankly I really agree with TUCKED, notwithstanding some of the snide comments preceding about asking National for clarification. Although I do have sympathy for the ladies that commented about physique issues…

I will start but emphasizing that I know the Boy Scouts are not a military organization, however if you will look at the evolution of uniforms in the military you will notice that many of uniforms from many years ago were untucked and that though there are dress uniforms that are tucked (the Navy crackerjacks being the noticeable exception) the working uniforms these days are worn untucked. And let’s face it, the boys are chunkier these days and quite frankly would look better with a shirt tailored to be worn untucked…

The basic Boy Scout uniform has changed with (and reflected) the times. Perhaps it should change again.

Well ladies, as a female scouter that has been part of BSA for over ten years, I have to state I support the “tuck in” rule. I am not thin; I have the baby weight and wide hips, but I totally agree with all the comments about uniformity and setting the good example. This organization is the “Boy Scouts of America”, an organization primarily for young men. (Venturing being the exception) I have never purchased a woman’s shirt; I have always worn a male shirt. Especially because of my fluffier appearance, I prefer the longer and less fitted cut of the men’s shirt. Wearing a male shirt makes it easy to tuck in. Be a good example for the boys, and help take away the stereotypes that women need exceptions made. Women in the military and law enforcement tuck their shirts in, and so can we!

In several discussions, you’ll note that a lot of military uniforms do not have women tucking. It’s not as if we want the bar of achievement lowered just for us–that’s making exceptions.

I’d like a shirt that fits and has the seaming that makes me recognizable as a female from 10 paces. I’m not just-one-of-the-guys and shouldn’t have to dress like one to participate. I’m glad you’ve found a shirt that works for your physique, but it doesn’t work for everyone. (You’ll also note that it’s not only women who have commented with problems with the sizing of the uniform shirts. Getting a uniform to look neat on every person is not a simple task.)

You NEVER embarass someone over the uniform, but you can uphold standards. Many units’ youth do not have the money to buy a complete uniform, but imagine the pride they develop, as the unit works together to earn money for a complete uniform, and the feeling of accomplishment, when they EARN the full uniform!

This summer at Tomahawk Scout Reservation our Venturing female members were told, “Tuck it in or take it off.” This seems very inappropriate to me for male leadership to say to our young women. This rule clearly needs revisiting. And I also look much neater with a longer sillouette – untucked. I also went back to look at my old Army dress uniforms, and the women’s blouses are all untucked.

I agree – I heard that over the summer at resident camp as well – in the store full of people – I was shocked to hear such a thing, thought it was uncalled for since there were lots of people in the store; I just don’t get why we don’t help the scouts focus on taking care of their own uniform, and at the very least be nice when correcting other scouts/scouters.
it was hot, humid, miserable day, everyone had just put in a long hard day of working on various projects, why would that need to be yelled across the store?

I have been a woman in Scouting for 30 years. I have the habit of tucking in my shirt to set the example for the boys. I’m not much concerned whether the uniform is flattering to my figure or not. I’ve been to Philmont and Wood Badge. I’ve never heard anyone say, ” Tuck it in or take it off”. If I did, I would TAKE IT OFF THEN AND THERE, even if it meant standing there in my underwear (regardless of whether my shirt had been tucked in or not). You get what you ask for and disrespect is contagious.

I am a female Scouter. My uniform shirt is always tucked in. I wear a man’s shirt. It fits me better and looks way better. It stays tucked in no matter what I am doing. I am no shrimp either. The idea is to set the example. You cannot set a uniform example if you don’t’ wear it correctly. BSA made a big mistake making those short shirts. They look silly and then you have this discussion, tuck or not? Tuck. However, you can be a Scout without a uniform. It actually is not required. It is an important method of Scouting but technically not required.

Ron C., with respect, you need to apologize for that comment. It is troll-like and completely uncalled-for, as well as insulting. After all, a Scout (and we all consider ourselves Scouts) is Courteous and Kind. You, sir, have demonstrated neither of those traits.

I saw a scout the other night who physically could not tuck in his shirt. He had grown and the shirt came right up to his belt line. Yes he needs a new shirt. Do we send him home because he can’t tuck in his shirt? Do we send him home because his family hasn’t had the time or money to get him a new shirt? I would rather see the boy in Scouting wearing a too small shirt and not tucked in than make him leave.

Some of the rules the organization is placing on members is getting difficult to comprehend how they’ll be enforced and the overall goal (I understand and agree with the neatness principal).

I would also rather see the scouts at the meetings participating; maybe a uniform closet/hanger? or help them figure out how to buy the uniform thru budgeting? I know i have not spent $30 on a shirt for myself in over $20 years – I just don’t have the finances to spend that much on one piece of clothing.

I think the ladies who’d like some princess seaming and darts should hold a fashion show to show folks what we are talking about. (That’s what our DNR conservation officers had to do to get decent uniforms to fit them–and they wear guns!) Mock up two or three uniforms with the proper women’s design and show folks how a woman can look “neat.” We could have before and after photos.

As a troop committee member and Eagle Coach I take Scouting seriously. I have been involved for many, many years in Scouting. Thank you for your approach to this matter. What a great way to teach the way to wear a uniform. We are becoming too lax in the expectations of our youth. Give them honor and desire to be better and raise the bar. Our youth of today are so capable of being better than we think. Just look at the good that comes from Scouting and being a part of something that has high standards and a desire to build others.

My son has a medical issue and leaving his shirt untucked made him feel better. Anyway, what harm is being done and why add more rules to an outdated organization? The scouting program needs to be brought into the 21st century. The majority of the curriculum is outdated, does not hold the interest of most boys, and frankly does not entice them to continue past age 9 or 10. Not tucking in your uniform does not equal disrespecting the flag, America, or your own self worth. It’s just an untucked shirt and nothing more.

Parents, Will you stop being such WEENIES and teach your boys about RESPECT and HONOR. Gird Up Their Loins. Direct them to put on The Whole Armor of God. Irvine, Texas won’t and our governmental leaders definitely can not. Of course you parents could demand that BSA approve a Field Uniform – Class A – made to be worn on the outside. Why not. Leaders, parents and charter organizations around the country are doing everything they can to dilute the Spirit of Scouting that Lord Baden Powell envisioned. January 1, 2014. A day the walls started to fall.

Maybe Murphy’s rules of combat can be altered slightly
“No combat-ready unit ever passed inspection.
No inspection-ready unit has ever passed combat.”
can be altered to
“No scout having an adventure has ever passed inspection.
No scout ready for inspection has ever been having an adventure.”

I’m a female scouter.This is what I’ve learned here~
I’m suppose to wear my shirt tucked in though the straight hem indicates otherwise. The shirt that fits my womanly assets is too large, but I’m not allowed to alter it.The pants are utterly hopeless. I’m suppose to be ‘hot’ and not ‘frumpy.’ I can’t exemplify Scout Spirit if I am out of uniform. I am allowed to purchase a custom uniform at a premium price via a process that doesn’t take enough measurements to produce a uniform that will actually fit me (yes, I tried.)

Clearly, I need to take my 20-25 hours each week of unpaid, un-uniformed service and go home.

When the new women’s shirt came out a few years back (maybe five?), I was under the impression that the women’s shirt was made with the straight bottom (no tails) because some women should not tuck in their shirts in order to look neat and attractive. I think the policy needs to be “re-thunk” or the shirts need to be re-designed (again!). However, I recently purchased a new one, so I’m not going to be in the market any time soon.

That is more frustration with the uniform, my shirt is too short to tuck in. After tucking in my shirt it only takes two steps or a twist and my shirt is out. I am a firm believer in the shirt being tucked in.

What about those BSA uniform shirts with the “cigarette” pocket on the sleeve and the base of which is designed not to be tucked in? I have had that shirt since they came out – now 1 or 2 styles ago. It doesn’t stay tucked un-not even if I duct tape it to my briefs

Hooray BSA! Uniforms are meant to be tucked in. Regardless of the hem, size of the wearer or gender. C’mon folks lets be the example the youth can follow! Thank you for your service regardless of tuck/no tuck! Look at the quote I found…

“Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I’ll show you a poorly uniformed leader.”
Sir, Robert Baden-Powell

Right you are about being grateful to adults for their service regardless of “belt visibility”!

Sure, the drawing on the inspection sheet is tucked. Every picture I see of BP in scout-dress is tucked. Even his granddaughter (based on the pictures from Jambo) tucks her shirt in. I tuck.

But goodness knows I will never make a call to National because someone sees a need to do it differently. (In my case, it would be a venturer who is very self-conscious about minimizing the boys’ “head turns” at her developing frame.)

And I do resent any of my $24/year being spent on superfluous pronouncements like these.

Then they shouldn’t have designed “women’s” shirts with no tails. You can’t market a women’s shirt that is designed not to be tucked and then come out with formal policy that requires them to be tucked. Sounds like they want me to buy yet another $40 shirt–not interested.

Margaret, please don’t be more concerned about looking “hot” and tailored than just being there to support a program that is intended to teach, guide, and benefit the boys. I’m a female too and, frankly, I realize that I’m not the focus here. Neither is what I wear. Just stick to putting on a great program for the boys and stop worrying about what you look like!!! It’s called service. Remember the scout oath and law. If you’re putting in that many hours/week, you clearly feeling a dedication to the values and the program. Don’t take your ball and go home unless you really can’t follow the oath and law and put yourself second in the line of cheerful service.

I *think* she was using sarcasm to make her point. Which is… when we start focusing too hard on the peripherals (tuck/don’t tuck), we lose sight of the core, which is to give our boys the best program and leaders possible.

Margaret makes an excellent point that National would do well to acknowledge. Not all Scouters are straight-as-a-board men. Many Scouters are very curvy, often voluptuous, women. We have bumps where men do not, and, with the exception of the very tiniest among us, the uniform offered by National does not properly fit those curves and bumps without being extensively altered.

So the choice that must be made is: what is more important? Tucking in a uniform to look “proper” and if you can’t, you’re out… or leave it untucked (or, in my case, alter the shirt to fit) and have ‘improper’ leaders who are otherwise stellar and excellent examples for the boys.

I just don’t think this is a peripheral. It is respectful to tuck in the shirt. If you need to make an alteration, make an alteration. If you need to buy it a little bigger, than wear a big shirt. Make it work. But don’t insist on a unilateral decision to allow thousands of boys to run around sloppy and disrespectfully wearing an official uniform because you won’t alter your shirt or wear it a little big.

I’m sorry. I work full time. I’m a mom full time. If you really think it’s preferable for me to not volunteer at all for my son’s pack because I might set the occasional bad example by having my shirt untucked or not even wearing my official shirt, than for me to volunteer for a fair piece of the leagues of planning and effort it takes to pull off a successful pack AND pay extra & go to the trouble of finding a seamstress in order to get a uniform that has a hope of fitting me, I guess you’re entitled to your opinion.

I work full time too and mom full time also. I applaud all our efforts to volunteer for the benefit of the boys. Our family spends a considerable amount of time and MONEY for the program. We donate for what we believe is important for the future of these kids. Yes, if it was that important to me, I would (and have) gone to a seamstress. I walk the walk. Otherwise, I would just wear a big shirt and show up to the meetings full of energy and enthusiasm for the larger purpose. Could we please just focus on the boys here?

But the question wasn’t about the boys, was it? It was about the uniform, and how they should be worn. I, and many other women across this country, have been speaking out for YEARS that the uniforms do not fit us. I hardly think that it’s “whining” when we voice that opinion again, since it has fallen on deaf ears. Especially since there appear to be people who have the attitude of “if you don’t do it this way, get out. We’re better off without you because you don’t conform.” Aren’t we trying to raise boys who think for themselves, who stand up and speak when they see something is wrong? Yeah, today it’s “just” a uniform. But what about later?

Your problem is with the manufacturing and design of the shirt. National simply put in writing what has been observed and expected since Baden-Powell, simply put: respectfully attired in class A uniform is to have a shirt tucked in. People seem to accept that point. Getting National to redesign the shirt is another fight altogether. I’ll support that too, but that is a different petition to National. Fix that problem, not argue the bigger issue of respecting a uniform.

Nobody (at least I’m not) arguing that we should not “respect the uniform”. In fact, I’m one of the “tuck nazis” in our pack. I’m constantly fussing at the boys to tuck in shirts, tie shoes, remove/don hats at appropriate times, change patches, etc. After all, these are 6-11-year old boys I’m working with, and their default setting is “sloppy”.

That I CANNOT tuck my uniform in because it is not made for that, nor does it fit properly regardless what size I purchase, is a big problem when I am trying to set the example of being neat, tidy, and proper. In that case, it is absolutely appropriate that I, and others, once again raise the issue that the “women’s” uniform is not made to fit a woman’s body. It is not a matter of respecting the uniform. It’s a matter of having a well-fitting uniform to wear. And then we can discuss whether we should tuck it or not.

Okay, so what have you done to petition National? Send letters, make phone calls, get your troop and district involved in a campaign to get new uniform designs for women? Have you wriitten in to Scout Life magazine urging readers to write/call in? Have you gone to your local Roundtable meeting and gotten help/support? Have you done anything proactive except complain? I agree the uniforms are not made well…so DO something constructive and make it an issue National addresses. Isn’t that how this blog article started? National was facing hundreds of phone calls and finally reacted. Start moving and stop complaining……Be an example of positive change!

As a matter of fact, I HAVE done several of those things. I worked as a professional (Dist. Exec) in the late ’90s, and voiced my concerns, along with many of my peers – both at the professional level and the volunteer level – at that time. I even spoke with one of the managers of Scout Supply when I was in Irving for PDL-I (first-level training for Professionals) and spoke up again at PDL-II, held in my Region. I have written letters. One even went to a previous Chief Scout Executive.

Now, since those vocalizations have apparently fallen upon deaf ears, I alter my own uniforms.

It’s got to be a tidal wave…one person is not enough to get National’s attention unfortunately. Keep up the good work! Passionate causes don’t get left behind! Rally more people to speak up and write in because they respond to the numbers!!! You’ve started the dialogue…keep it going…wishing you all the best on this very worthy cause!

OK…so this has gotten pretty contentious, and IMHO. not very Scout like. I hope you all figure out the best way to serve your units…and to wear whatever uniform you want or need. I’m leaving this thread and unsubscribing now. Best wishes

I think the problem is that women are frustrated that they have taken appropriate action to get uniforms changed, but it has been ignored. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that there is a problem here which is not being dealt with and should be addressed by the powers that be. They give options, none of which work for some people. It is their responsibility to revisit this issue and find a solution rather than ignoring the problem so that people become frustrated and leave an otherwise worthwhile program. In fact, I would say that how the leaders in Scouts deal with this longstanding problem from this point in an appropriate and timely manner is just as important as having Scouts tuck in their shirts to appear neat and tidy. (And it will set an example to the Scouts, as well.)

This is a huge pet peeve of mine too – Just tuck the shirts in – In our Troop, we value full uniforming – Scout shorts, or long pants, Scout Shirt, Belt, Socks, etc… And yes, you tuck your shirt in. It doesn’t matter if you’re Male, or Female, or a Scouting youth – The shirt is to be tucked in….

So I’ve been thinking about women in uniform and tucking. The US military obviously has stringent fitness standards, but when female service members are pregnant and unable to tuck, the military allows uniform shirts that are straight across the bottom (no tails), similar in style to the BSA women’s shirt. The BSA has hundreds (thousands?) of adult female volunteers who are heavy and unable to tuck. The fact that in 2008 (or maybe 2010? correct me if I’m wrong) the tan women’s shirt came out with an even hem and without the cargo pockets on the chest, showed that BSA understood women contribute to the program and many women’s bodies don’t work in uniforms styled for men. The formulation of the “tuck regardless” policy seems to be a step backwards.
I can’t think of an example at the moment, but I’m also wondering if there is a medical condition (maybe use of some type of appliance) that would dis-allow boys from tucking. I think the policy needs an out for special circumstances.

I’d like to raise one other point that has been bugging me. There’s was concern voiced that if the women leaders (and female venturers) look too good in their uniforms that the boys just won’t be able to concentrate on what they are doing; that the guys would be soooo tempted by the gals that they might misbehave. So it’s OK that all the gals look like they are playing dress-up in guys clothes.

I’m sorry, but I just have to object to that. Aren’t we raising young men of character? Aren’t we raising them to respect everyone regardless of race, religion, or gender? So why should they behave in a disrespectful manner to a woman who is wearing clothes that fit her? If my son did that, I’d smack him up-side the head and set him straight.

Despite your condescension, I do understand very well. Some guys might be distracted instead of misbehaving–I’ll acknowledge that point. But we aren’t talking about skin-tight clothes or bikinis either.

I have dozens of business shirts that have the proper darting for a nice female silhouette. The BSA shirt looks nothing like that. Nor would any boy seeing me in my business shirts be too distracted to work. For that matter, I can’t imagine any boy seeing a fellow venturer (female) in those darted business shirts would be too distracted to work unless their hormones would kick in regardless of what the girl is wearing. That’s not the shirt.

How is it treating our female venturers or volunteers with respect to expect them to dress in sacks because our boys can’t be expected control themselves? That doesn’t respect anyone.

Maybe if the gals had better looking uniforms to put on (or, you know–ones that fit their female frame!) they would be less inclined to wear something you think is inappropriate for official outings. They aren’t one-of-the-guys when it comes to their physical bodies. They can’t help that.

I’m asking for uniforms that fit women before we worry about the detail of tuck/not tuck. Do you think National would provide short-shorts and spaghetti strap tops in response to my request?

Terriffic!! I agree that uniforms look better tucked in. What gets me is National can stand its ground on a dress code tradition but not on “moral” issues that BSA was founded on and was also a tradition. Go figure!

Many units require boys to have a uniform. Someone bought my son his shirt last year because they required at minimum shirt, neckerchief, & slide. After paying registration and dues I couldn’t spare more money for a uniform, but it was a requirement. And before you call me ignorant, I checked with all packs withing 20 minutes of us. So try to educate yourself before trolling. Your Pack may not require Class A, but many do.

When I was a Scout (late 50’s, early 60’s) there was only one uniform (now called the Field uniform).

There were some dumb things about it – knee length socks with garters, “barracks” caps which were useless.

However, the neckerchief was a size actually usable for a sling – the pockets had some capacity – and it was a practical uniform, wearable everywhere.

They then replaced it with a designer uniform, and things went downhill from there. The uniform was so impractical for camping that they had to introduce the “activity” uniform; the neckerchief is too small to use for anything but a blindfold, the pockets were either taken away or overlap so there’s no capacity.

I bought the original switchbacks – again, some nice ideas, but not well executed (and I miss the opportunity to wear the leather scout belt).

And the square-bottom shirts were clearly designed to be worn untucked – so someone in the design department didn’t talk to the uniform guidelines people.

Also, the accordian shirt pockets are singularly unattractive for the female scouts and scouters.

And don’t get me started on the cigarette pockets on the shirt sleeves (yes, I know, they’re supposed to be media pockets, but still –).

Can we get some decent uniform design? A design which doesn’t need a whole separate “activity” uniform? I see nothing wrong with a design which allows for untucked shirts – but everyone has to be on the same page, and the guidelines need to be clearly spelled out.

Well said. The main reaction to this directive seems to be more “The Lord has spoken.” than “Is that the way it should be?” There should be a practical flexible uniform that looks good, is comfortable to wear and doesn’t need constant readjustments. The reason camo outfits are so popular, for example, is because they allow for freedom of movement and look fairly sharp. Plus, you can ditch the top and work in just the tee shirt and then slip back into the top. It’s not a uniform made to pass inspections it’s one designed to allow you to do things. And scouts should be doing things not worrying about being unwrinkled and all tucked in…

Isn’t that what class B t-shirts are for? Our kids travel in class A (most with the troop t-shirt underneath) and as soon as they get to the camp or activity site, they peel off the class A’s and start working/playing in the class B’s.

SW, there is the field uniform. It is intended for most BSA activities, and for enabling a youth or adult to display their association, position, and achievements via patches and insignia. I know it’s hard to believe, but it the intent was for both work and play in the field! The closest parallel in military parlance would be the army “Class B”.

Then, for adults, there is the dress uniform for formal occasions: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Uniform/dress.aspx These can include your pack meetings, courts of honor, worship service, even troop/crew meetings. Anything where the adult is not “in the thick of it” with the boys. This most closely parallel’s army “Class A”.

Finally, there are “special-purpose” uniforms that are not to hold insignia — or to be worn with your uniform pants. It’s what everyone calls “class B” but that’s a misnomer because there is not single-issue “special purpose” uniform for it to be called a “class”. There is nothing preventing a pack or troop from only using special-purpose uniforms, although it is basically setting aside an entire method of cub/boy scouting!

The activity t-shirt is a great idea. They are inexpensive and allow Scouts to be “in uniform” while doing messy things like service-project painting that could ruin their more expensive official uniform.

I just read a comment that was not scout like at all – “Now I know why we don’t allow women as leaders in our troop” – wow fairly straight forward rudeness. Frankly I am ready to leave this discussion based on that conversation. That comment is inappropriate whether directed to male or female. The program is about the scouts, and helping them grow into men, with spines and integrity. Female leaders are a good support to our troop, and very dependable. The uniform tucking issue should not come down to who can be an effective leader. I am appalled he wrote that.

That fellow is been a bit of a jerk, that’s for sure but I figure that if you leave for that reason you’ve conceded. On the other hand, if you leave because you think everything that can be said on the subject has been said…

I am 5 foot in height, short waisted, big chest and overweight. My shirt has to be big for the front, which makes the sleeve seams go down to far. My pants are long in the straddle. If I tuck in my shirt, I can’t raise my arms. My pants are too tight around the waist, but if I buy them larger the straddle will hang down farther where I can’t lift my leg. I try to look neat with what I have to work with. Some people like myself look neater with the shirt out. I have always told the boys in our troop, that rule doesn’t apply to old fat women. Wish it were true tomorrow. Guess I can wear a jacket.

I just wanted to say thank you to all the women who have replied here. I have three boys. When I was pregnant with each of them, I was also a BSA volunteer in some capacity (yes, this means I was involved in the BSA long before any of my boys were scouts). Fortunately, around the 3rd pregnancy, they had the clearance sale with ladies’ shirts for $5, so I was able to buy one in each size to guarantee I would have something to wear when teaching my training classes that year. (During previous pregnancy I had taught – at eight and a half months pregnant – with my uniform shirt unbuttoned over a Day Camp t-shirt.)

If I were to show up in the future to a University of Scouting, eight months pregnant, with my shirt untucked and wearing olive green sweat pants, I doubt any other Scouter in my district would blink an eye. But I would feel uncomfortable, knowing what official policy is. That is why I am glad I read these comments, because it is reassuring to read about other women with various uniforming issues. This is something the BSA should be aware of, if they are not already, but I also think it is good for us to be aware of each other and the issues we face (and to support each other, rather than judging and and arguing).

I forgot to add that, fortunately, the standard of excellence for leaders is also that we do our best – you can’t be expected to do more, and you shouldn’t do less (at least, that’s what they told us at Wood Badge).

I am a 5’10” female commissioner. I have never been able to buy (even by special order) a women’s blouse long enough to tuck in. I had even contemplated buying a men’s shirt so that I could tuck but in order to fit my chest I needed a men’s 2x which hung to my knees and had arm holes so big everytime I saluted I was giving peep shows.I have a short sleeve and long sleeve blouse that both have straight hems (both were special ordered in the longest size I could get in womens) and neither of which is ever tucked in. In fact, I can barely raise my arms without showing what ever shirt I’m wearing underneath (and I always wear a shirt underneath!) For me its not about being tidy/neat or respectful of the uniform and what it represents, its a more about what is physically possible. If national wants my shirt tucked in, then they need to be more reasonable in sizing (and before you mans any snarky comments, yes I have addressed the issue with national and my local council as well as the scoutshop with no results). My entire district, the units I’m responsible for and all of my adult leaders know what the uniform standards are and they all follow them with the exception of myself and a handful of other moms in the same boat. I am tired of being demeaned and nagged by a bunch of shirt gestapo that are more worried about whether I tuck or not than they are about the quality of their units. It is what it is, get over it.

Wow. Some of the comments in here are a little ridiculous. “Accomadate them by letting have the stupid shirt untucked.” I hope you don’t refer to inanimate objects as stupid around the scouts. That sets a bad example.

“I find it hard that your son’s physiology is so outside the norm that even a shirt made for giants is too small for him if he is wearing his pants how they are supposed to be worn.” Spoken like a person that has never had to choose between wearing a shirt that fit but was too short to tuck in or that was long enough to tuck in but ballooned out like a garbage bag. I hit 6’7 around the age of 16 and I am now 6’9, 33 years old, have a stocky build and a 4th year Cub Scout Adult Leader. I am always amazed at how many adult leaders I see that are “Big and Tall” but yet tall uniform shirts aren’t readily available. I have talked to serveral leaders from multiple packs at Roundtables, Jamborees, ETC. who share my concerns. When the bottom button on your shirt is 3-5 inches above your waist it looks awkward no matter how you tuck it in. Add in outdoor activity and I keep having to readjust my shirt. I am going to look into getting my 2 uniform shirts tailored but I just wanted to comment to those who think it’s just as easy as “pull your pants up and tuck it in.” I wish it was that simple.

Jason, I’m glad I’m not the only one revisiting this wonderful discussion! I have always allowed the option of the straight hem being untucked.. This ruling of all shirts tucked means that I have to buy an over-sized, tailed shirt and larger pants. I comply with the tucked-in requirement, but am NOT neat — HUGE sleeves, and extremely blousy — so I’m glad National is not requiring both.

Tucked in is fine for lean, fit bodies of young people. Requiring tucked in will destroy the participation of so many overweight, large-bellied men and women who are Scout Leaders. Tucked in is a disgrace to Scouting and we have no weight requirements for adults or fitness standards. We only have one-half of the required Commissioners for our Troops and Packs and so many of these, even some younger adults, look absolutely disgusting and morbidly obese with a tucked-in policy. It is better to have or to design a field jacket design that can be worn outside and neatly than to display leaders in undesirable shape as models for the boys. And jeans have never been acceptable Class A wear, but parents don’t want to spend $44 on Scout pants…which are actually quite good and wear very well! No, these adults are not going on specialized fitness and dietary programs; they are already working incredible hours just to make a living. Many will die young.

I’m female. I have zero issue tucking in my shirt, in spite of a large bust size and more than a few extra pounds around my middle. Most women in scouting work with Cubs, who are very much prone to look to their leaders as examples. I’ve been involved, in one capacity or another, with 4 different packs more. Those in which leaders don’t follow uniform policies to the letter have sloppy boys. The programs are for the kids. We need to be good examples, even when we disagree with the policies. Do what you’re supposed to in front of them 100% of the time, then work rather than whine for changes when the kids are out of earshot and so forth.

I’ve never heard such a load of shameful excuses in my life. I am the height, same size, same shape as half of you whiners. Either tuck it in or retire. Our boys (and girls) deserve better than you. Tuck it in, or go home and let someone else step up and lead – someone who will go the extra mile to not look like a slob.

I tuck it in, and I hate it. But I tuck it in. I wear a jacket over the shirt to soften the horrible look of a tucked in, ill-fitting shirt. I have two mothers who would make GREAT den leaders who won’t volunteer, because they don’t like the shirt. Specifically.

I comment on this blog and the FB post in the hope that National will pay attention.

Come on Ladies! Either LEAD BY EXAMPLE or don’t lead!
How can we expect our scouts to follow the rules if we can’t (won’t) because “our shirts look bad on us”? We’re not in a fashion contest. We teach our scouts to adapt to all situations. It’s not like you have to wear your uniform shirt every single day. Be a little flexible.

I wear the uniform shirt tucked in. I hate it, but I do it, because it is the official rule. That being said, there is nothing wrong with politely responding to this post about why I hate wearing the shirt tucked in.

Frankly, I’m a little tired of the poor attitudes displayed towards me, and others like me, who believe in letting National know there’s problems with the uniform design. You assume that because I disagree with the policy I violate it? Take a look at the example you’re setting.

That poor shirt design has cost my Pack female leaders. You can call them vain if you want, but what I have are two more dens without committed leaders. An out-of-uniform den leader is a lot easier to work with than an absent one.

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned in previous posts: BSA Women’s uniforms used to fit much better before the uniform changes for the centennial and following. At that time, ALL BSA women’s shirts/blouses were made to bust sizing and designed to be worn outside the waist of the pants/skirt. In the past wearing a blouse tucked into pants was considered immodest in most western cultures, because doing so implicated showing outwardly more of the female figure/shape.

Today, there continue to be religious organizations to which some registered adult women and female Venture members belong, that require women to “not show their waistline” meaning they may not tuck in shirts/blouses, wear dresses with elastic or fitted waists, etc. Basically, it is part of their belief for female modesty. If BSA requires female Scouters and Venture members to tuck in their uniform shirts, wouldn’t that be a discrimination against their religious beliefs?

I believe the male scouters should have there class “A” uniform shirts tucked in. Our female scouters should be able wear their shirts untucked if they have square hems and split sides. If the shirts have tails tuck them in. It wouldn’t hurt to iron it either.

In my opinion- and I have been a scout/ scouter for over 25 years- If the shirt is designed to be tucked in, tuck it in and look presentable. If you have a female shirt- by golly, I hope you are female for one, but if it looks neater in presence to be worn untucked, so be it. I have no problem with a shirt tucked or untucked- but I have seen some very sloppy leaders: those that cant button straight, or patches put on using badge magic and then realized they were put in the wrong place so had to be pulled off leaving a very dark circle on the uniform, OA flaps on the wrong pocket, too many “temporary” patches, adults still wearing a rank patch, you name it, I have probably seen it. Now, I’m not out there to be the uniform police, these are just things I’ve noticed. Leaders should be properly uniformed- anything out of place just doesnt look right.

Many of the responses here are similar to the attitudes of some of the “old school” leaders I have run across within the BSA. Women are not given the same respect or appreciation as their male equals. These particular people see nothing wrong with women being forced to wear clothes designed for men, but I doubt they would be as open to being forced to wear clothing designed for a woman. And to claim that they uniform does not fit because we are simply overweight speaks your attitude clearly. We are trying to respect the uniform and our bodies just as any male leader should. Asking for a uniform that fits properly should be expected, not ridiculed. We are not trying to fit into a man’s position figuratively or literally. We are equal members of the organization and should be respected as such.

I am so disappointed by the comments on this thread. It is these types of attitudes that create conflict and unrest within the scouting program. There is a complete disregard for anyone with differing opinions. And that is much of what this thread contains. Opinions. Not one of you is right or wrong. You just differ in what you “think” is right or wrong.
Fact – The BSA has required shirts to be tucked
Fact – Many BSA women’s shirts do not tuck in properly due to the hemming. They come out of the tuck when they bend over or do any type of typical physical activities in which scouts partake.

Opinion – the policy is correct
opinion- the policy is wrong

If those of you calling names, pointing fingers, or being disrespectful treat your fellow scouters and scouts in this same manner I am ashamed of you. That is NOT what this organization is about. Go back and seriously consider why you are here.

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Bryan on Scouting is the official blog of Scouting magazine, a Boy Scouts of America publication. Scouting magazine is published five times a year and is received by 1 million registered adult volunteers.