I was wondering, is it possible to use the weight slider thing for changing the ages of children out there? like the lowest setting you would have the child's default age... and the highest weight would have them be a young teenage.

or is it too much to have that weight slider turn into a height/age slider?

The reason why I'm asking this, is because I've been trying to work on a project where all the children of skyrim look different from each other, and even have different hairstyles. I've been learning my way around meshing, and also my way around the CK. Meshing isn't really my strong point, but I'm more experienced with texture and bump maps. as seeing I sell plenty of clothes and stuff on IMVU (a 3d chat program where I make clothes for it). And so far from what I've seen Making clothes for Skyrim via texture/recoloring isn't really that different from making clothes for IMVU avatars. The only problem I have is making it so that it doesn't overwrite the original existing clothes.

I was hoping that if I teamed up with a more experienced mesher, then between the two of us we could actually make it so that none of the kids looked like clones... and actually had different face shapes. I would be able to help with making new clothes for all of them... so that they would have cute, child-friendly clothing that was lore-friendly.

Heck, all of them would be different varying ages... from 7 year olds to 13 year olds, thanks to that "height/age slider" idea that I have using the Weight slider. But that's only if it works. That way they would all really look different.

I've been messing around in 3d max, and actually managed to give the child's face a different look. But I'm not sure how to make it so that you can fully customize the face just like you would do with your own player character.

If the idea I have actually pans out, then you'll be not only getting a highly superior playable child mod... but the children of skyrim will finally stop looking so creepy.

Rex1029

Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:58 AM

Rex1029

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776 posts

As for the weight slider being used as a Height/age slider :
The game looks for that option for ALL characters. When it looks for it, it will effect the same thing on all characters, so no, it can't be repurposed for that on just kids.
That said, if a person can make a NEW slider, that MIGHT be able to do a bit for height, but likely not for age.

Why not age?
The age issue has a LOT of options and possibilities built into it, and a lot of questions built into it.

Needs for what you are asking :
- a body that goes from a child, flat chest, up to ... say a b or c cup. (noone has made a fully flat chest, not even for argonians, who by all rights shouldn't even have mammary development for adults, let alone kids.)
- A full working body mesh for kids that is designed in an ADULT manner. I make note of that word because the adult meshes do NOT allign with the child meshes. Child : hand cuts off about a inch above the wrist. Adult : Hand cuts off about 5-6 inches above the wrist.
- Head mesh changer : This would change the size of the head from a larger equivilant, like a child has in relation to the body, to the normal size head that an adult has. If you want to have a young person, you would have to deal with that, and so far, nothing really changes the head size in a proper manner, in relation to the body, according to age.
- Adaptive Body Skeleton : This would need to change the ratio as the child ages. This controls the full ratio of stuff, so anything that changes such a ratios height wise would have to play with the skeleton to some degree.
- A fully proper, and working head : Such was a shortcut they made. The kids only have 1 face, that of a 'malechild'. (yes, even females have that 'malechild' face.) The mesh set used for them is also flawed, and shortcut. It was ment to only be a photo-style mesh, allowing you to see them, not edit them. With a properly working head/face, you will be able to adapt things, adding things like hairstyles, new eyes, scars, warpaints, dirt, eyebrow ridges, chins, noses, lips, etc... As it is, it is missing a layer that will record such changes. Without that layer, it won't recognize such changes, or be able to display such changes. It's the same issue that often gets brought up with vampire children, when their faces change. (*shrugs*)

In all honesty, Kids were put in to the game for the simple reason that they didn't want the teasing to continue from Oblivion players. "You mean to tell me that it's been 200 years since the last game, and they STILL haven't figured out how to have a kid? WTF are they doing?" The kids were never made to be a playable race.

I have been looking for a replacement body mesh for my mod for a LONG time now. Haven't found any graphical artists willing/able to even do a redo of the torso for a flat chest, or a redo of the torso/hand attach point so things would work properly. The best I have been able to do on fixing such is using "New Children" for the body, using the default heads, and then adding the female hand as a improvised hand replacement so we don't have floating hands. Feel free to check out my mod.

The key reason why I haven't tried to do stuff on the graphical lines myself is because I can't edit such on my system. Can't afford the software that will definitely work, and can't get the free ones to work with meshes at all... (*shrugs*)

I know that there are several mods out there that do child body changes, but I have not been able to get author permission to use their resources. Without that key step, I haven't done such with my mod.

--

The BEST you could do with the current setup on the height thing would be a height change spell. Basicly have it be a in game Setscale command, and have it increase or decrease height accordingly. The problem is, it does it for the whole body, including the head, and when the kids are "Grown up" to full adult size, they look like their head was replaced in a pumpkin that was inflated at a helium factory. The head scale issue is what is the problem. Child body increase gets too big of a head, adult body shrunk results in a shrunken head effect. (*shrugs*)

The only way I know to do such would be to assign a set of races with different bodies attributed to them, different head/faces for them all, and different skeletons for each, and have it automatically redo the sizes according to some event. Thing is, it wouldn't be possible to change up that form (that I know of) without having possibility to royally mess up the character stat wise. You would effectively need to change up the body in a manner similar to the vampire change. (*shrugs*)

It's a good plan, and a good idea, and I have thought about it, but from what I have seen, the resources simply aren't there at this time to pull it off properly.

I have thought about an older teen mod, but then the catcher is... there isn't enough significant change with the older teens and the young adults in the 20's who are full grown, so you might as well just do the change at the front end for the full spectrum of characters.

The mid level teens are the largest area of flux. Their head/body ratio changes significanly due to growth, and would need different skeletons to pull off. Add to that that the height thing is fairly set per race, and it throws a monkey wrench into this. It's something I am looking for, and something I would like to get approval for on my mod, but so far, approval of such things has been lacking. (*shrugs*)

Trust me, you aren't the only one who is looking on this tangent... The main reason it isn't out though is ... in a nutshell, lack of suitable resources, and permission to use them.

behughes

Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:12 AM

behughes

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Isn't it possible to set the height on custom races? Perhaps you could make the children a unique "race" as far as the CK is concerned (if they're not already) and set their default height there. You could break the age range into three groups, small/young, medium/pre-teen and large/teen. Medium would use the vanilla body mesh for children, while small and large would use custom meshes. The unique races you'd end up would be like Orc Teen or Khajiit Child. Of course, the downside of this would be that you'd have to add 30 new "races" to the game (10 races x 3 age/height groups), not to mention both genders.

AuroraMoon

Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:29 AM

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@ Rex -- thanks for such a well thought-out reply. It's been highly helpful to me in letting me know what could be done.
I'm more of a graphical artist than a true mesher, so I wouldn't mind helping you out with your child texture problems. After all, I'm also looking to team up with somebody while I try to figure out how CK works, and what can be done with it. If you're interested in having my help or seeing what I can do, pm me.

@behughes -- True, but at least it'd be better than nothing. But maybe we don't need that many? After all, half of the the races are pretty much just humans with different facial structures and skin-tones.
Plus, some of them you actually don't see much in game. Take High elves for instance. You rarely see them around despite being a playable character. Most of them are in the thlamor business with the exception of a few high elf merchants. So it could be argued that High elves actually don't like living in Skyrim, and prefer to live elsewhere. They're only in skyrim on business, and as an result they wouldn't take their children along with.

So we wouldn't need high elf children that much in game.

Having children be a "different race" seems to be the most viable option so far, and it's also something we can start with. We don't have to do 30 races all at once, just start slowly.... starting with human race first. Or, we could actually just go with Three templates-- Humaniod, Reptile and Beast children? The Humanoid children could easily be configured to look like human, orc or any elf races, espeically if you've got that mod where it allows you to change your skin-tone into different wild colors, like gray or pink despite being a human or whatever. To give them elf ears, it could maybe be an equipped item? I've seen mods where you can equip elf ears or cat ears. The orc teeth could also be a equipped item to make them seem more orcish. Hmm.

Having only three body/race templates for child races would definitely cut down on having to make 30 New races. Especially if you don't mind there being no teens in game, just 7-year-olds.
*Shrugs* just a thought.

Rex1029

Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:58 AM

Rex1029

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776 posts

@Behughes
... You are correct that you can set height for each race, but EVERY individual for that race is exactly that height, no exception.
.. A teen is constantly growing. There is a LOT of range between 13 and 19 height wise, and that would not be able to be covered by a single race (and yes, each stage would need to be a race, so you would have to have multiple races for different stages to cover the different settings.

.. Also, if you want to be technical and realistic, you would have issues with education, depending when you hopped out and did stuff. A 8 year old Breton character is expected to have certain things that he has been taught by his parents/society. He might know a little bit about the magic resistance stuff, or have a little bit of magic training, but he wouldn't be equivilant to a full blown adult. The 10 year old redguard child may have some minor combat training, but he wouldn't be equal to an adult. Each of them would have modifications to the race, and mandate certain things for educational background. A person who wants a full realistic thing would need to account for this information in SOME manner. (Does the person who starts a 8 year old character completely skip that info and never learn it? Do they have to learn it from another of their race when they get old enough? Do you have a fountain of ageing, or some effect that gives it to them automaticly when they choose to age? ... )

And what about the person that wants physical development mid way? If you start a 8 year old female Imperial, she won't have much of a chest. If you age her to adulthood, however, she may end up with something between a AA cup, and a "OMFG!" cup, depending on the body mods that some people have loaded. (* Smiles and shrugs*) Each stage would have to modify such things, and I haven't found a way to edit such in game with a variable. The problem is, we need a limited character edit mid way, and they don't provide that in the game.

The problem with other races as children still hasn't been addressed also. We can't even get the resources for the basic kids to work, let alone do anything more than set the scale for the kids of the non-human. If we got a fully proper mesh set (head and body) to work for the kids with the humans, we could try to adapt it to the others, but without that, we simply don't have what is needed. (*shrugs*)

As a note, base combat range for empty hand is also set up in the race file, so if you set scale from 1 to, say 8... You would still have your normal range.... so, as an example, You have a pigmy race, which is .5 of normal human. You setscale 8... You are now 4 times larger than any human... but you still have the arm range of 1/2 of a human, so any human of normal size would still be able to beat you senseless without issue by "Staying out of your range" (*shrugs*) ... strange, yeah, I know... but that's the basics.

=====

@AuroraMoon

I would be glad to get your insight on things Let me know what is going on with the CK, and I would be glad to work with you on things. Some things I can do a lot, others I can't, but I will let you know what I can. Admittedly, the meshing/texture is one thing that I know WHAT is going on with, but I don't really know HOW to DO anything WITH such... Every time that I have tried to do any texture/meshing, I have only met failure, and that is over 80 times, on Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. (yes, I have been trying to get into such for a while. Something just isn't clicking and wanting me to work with such.) (*shrugs and smiles*)

The issue I seee from the child to adult stage... There are kids that develop sooner than others, true, but most 8 year old girls don't have chest devleopment yet of any significance, when compared to boys of the same age. The way the meshes are set up, the meshes for the breast are set into the item. (another issue where the artists are failing the flat chested body community, like kids, Flat chested adults, and proper Argonian/Lizard racial types that don't deal with such. (*shrugs*)) Use them, and even the youngest kid could end up with an OMFG! cup when wearing the clothes, even though there is nothing under it.

Now on a realism tangent, I DO agree with having a BIT of a cup for girls for things like armor.It allows them to grow, and not need to get new armor automaticly for a proper fit. You can always fill it otherwise with padding so it doesn't flop all over on the form. Like with armor today, little suzie can have a suit of armor, or uniform for a combat class, even though she is flat chested, and undeveloped yet, a A cup could be built in for her size. That cup could be padded, and add a bit more protection than normal, and if she gets to where the armor is tight, she can always take out the padding, and wear it normally, and still have it fit, no prob. With that logic in mind, I don't mind armor for kids having a minor cup to even the little girl versions. Not unreasonable for teens who are in between growth spurts either.

---

As a FYI on heads : The way they did the larger scale for the head for the kids is that they used a fully different head than adults. It is a larger head, and as such, the hairstyles, eyes, face features, and misc graphics (like scars, paints, etc...) for the adults don't fit with it. The crippled head set also doesn't save the changes for the kids that are saved for adults.

As such, if you do this, there will be a complication... You would need to have either, a way to reset the face when it ages to the next step, or assign a script to replace certain assigned settings with assigned others for the new face, assigning a new head for the new body. (something I haven't seen fully done yet without a setracemenu style command, which would add more options, including race change and gender change by default.) Such is a problem, however, since it would restrict new war-paints, scars, or other such things from being used for the character, if it is script based.

=====

Steps :

I have basicly broken this down into steps already of what is needed, tool and resource wise....

1) Working child body set (mesh & Texture) (just the body for human)
2) Working child head (mesh & Texture) (just the head for human)
3) Working child Misc items (mesh & Texture for human) (scars, war paint, noses, chins, eyes, etc...)
(This is the first complete point. This stage is also when the items are copied for a vampire race of that size/form)
4) Once we get the child set working right, we THEN go to the near-human (the elves & Orcs) Ideally, it should be as simple as swapping out a body tinting, adding ears, exchanging the heads, and a few other minor things to make them fit... but I have not been able to figure out where they store the ear meshes in game on a natural thing. If we use the same aspects as the other children sets, we SHOULD be able to use MOST of the misc items for the elves as well.(*shrugs*)
(This is the second complete point. This stage is also when the items are copied for a vampire race of that size/form)
5) Once we get the humanoid set done, then we go to the animalistic. We use the child body to be a template for the hair/scales and other features of exemption of the race in question (argonian & khajit) (which order is irrelevant at that point).
6) Get a working child head for the non-human sets that would be child level of development (perhaps not as many spines or crests for argonian, or smaller ones that haven't fully developed yet, or add more "Baby Fat" for the kittens facial features to give a simulation of their youth.
7) Working with non-human Misc Items (mesh & Texture) (Scars, war paint, noses, chins, etc...)
(Third Complete point. Again, we make vampires for that form. )

Work with armor conversions to adapt established armors to an appropriate cup size as desired.
(Ongoing project that will never finish, due to the number of armors that are constantly made.)

===

That would have to be done for each stage we do, so we would be looking at trying to do this as much as possible with reuseable things that can cover all the subsequent stages. The facial features would be the problematic thing, however, due to the child scale vs. adult scale, and the fact that many child faces become more angular and often develop significantly between, say 10 and 20.

If we can get the basics here done, mesh & Texture, then we can adapt things accordingly.

--

Then, the uncomfortable questions for many come up...

The problem is, contrary to the modesty comfort level of many, then comes up with the society issues. Argonians are hatched from eggs, they don't get nursed like kittens do. As a society, they shouldn't have an issue with the modesty of the torso that many have in the human societies since they aren't developed there, and the chest has no significance that way. With that in mind, the question has to be asked, is the young argonian female clothed on the top as a default part of the mesh/texture? if so, why? To make nice with the humans? That shouldn't be an issue if they go into their home and want to strip down. The clothes shouldn't be anything but a bane to them if they go into the water on a recreational basis, wanting to feel the water over their scales, and the compression of the clothes doing nothing but weight them down, and pushing their scales out of place, weakening their natural protection in the water. We would also have to eliminate the belly button from their mesh/form because there was no cord to form the button.. They had an egg.

On the Khajit, another factor is there. They have a natural level of clothing, in the form of their body hair. Similar question to the argonian side. Why would they bother with other clothing when at home/relaxing ? I can see the urge to put on clothes when dealing with the "crazy, modest humans", but on their own, ... not so much so. The hair can protect even in cold weather. (some cats and dogs thrive with just their normal fur coat in the cold weather. Look at sled dogs in the north, as an example.) Why would they bother with thick clothing, even when dealing with cold weather? They would be even more likely to walk out into the snow in a pair of shorts and a T-Shirt at most. Should it be built into the mesh/texture? On the same tangent, the cat often has 6 teats to feed the full litter of kittens at the same time (3 tiers). Do you wish to have them all developed to the same stage stages? or just 2, like other humans? or develop 2 at a full level, 2 at a reduced, and 2 at a minimal? ... That is a modesty issue that most cats wouldn't share with humans... If you doubt that, ask your cat how modest they are.

These are examples of the questions you will want to ask durring the project, and aspects that many people are already looking for in a realistic tangent, although most of these last questions are able to be put off by either not doing the beast races of argonian & Khajit... It's easy to assume that due to contact, lack of natural protective layer, and similarity of body form, that most elves and orcs will have similar modesty issues as the humans, thanks to contact and interaction with them for so long.

=====

Guess now is good for a place to stop for now. There are other concerns as well, but this is a good start.

Our first needed key need is a full blown, working child body & head mesh that we can use easily, that keeps proper scale of form. Without that, all of this is mostly pointless conjecture, or unsupported planning stages.

AuroraMoon

Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:21 AM

AuroraMoon

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I wonder, if it would be bad form to import some face meshes from programs like Daz Studio and Poser Pro? Because I've made faces on there, and sometimes I import some of the face shapes for 3D max and stuff.
Now those are my own custom faces but they're also based on DAZ's kid and adult templates. So I wonder if it would infringe on them if I imported some of that to Skyrim. Hmm. I guess I'll have to e-mail them and see.

I've already edited a little bit of the Skyrim kid model in 3D max, to make the body seem more feminine in nature. I gave it a little bit of what you could call girly hips. not full-blown child bearing hips, mind you. just enough of a shape so that you can tell that when the girl grows up, she's going to have some excellent child bearing hips. The body mesh is still flat-chested though because I don't agree with giving a child that looks 7-8 years old boobs, no matter how tiny the breasts are. I'll have to take a screen-shot and show you guys soon.

I've also been looking at the animation part, and trying to figure out if I could tweak the animation for the little girls. So that they could have more of a girlish run, etc.
Just so that there's some actual difference between the little boy and little girl model.

--Rex
You bring up a lot of excellent points. personally, I don't think the Argonians would have any visible body parts. I think they're most like lizards and or snakes in that their reproductive parts are retractable. However they're a cold-blooded species who need heat to survive. So maybe the reason why they wear clothes is so that they can survive in Skyrim's harsh weather. otherwise they might just get the strong urge to hibernate until hot weather comes... and in skyrim that might never come. So maybe wearing warm clothing is their way of offsetting their natural urge to Hibernate forever and work for their other needs instead.http://www.bcreptile...tiles_north.htm you can learn more about how reptiles operate in cold weather here.
I imagine hot springs would be very popular with them though, as seeing that's one way they can shed their clothes and be in a more natural habitat. I can easily picture a modded village centered around a hot spring, full of Argonains. Heck, that could even be a tourist site for other races who also enjoy taking a dip in a hot spring.

the Khajits... well it would be hard for a mesher to model 4 breasts on a woman and not have it look super weird. so let's just stick with humanoid breasts. I agree that a cat's sense of modesty would not be the same as a human's.... however I do think a female would want to protect her nips from the cold. So maybe she would wear nothing but a bra. she would go "bottomless", not "topless".

I know it's pretty pointless to discuss all this until we have some actual working meshes completed, but I think it's still nice to think about those things. Especially if you're planning future projects.

Rex1029

Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:26 PM

Rex1029

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776 posts

If you didn't do the full aspect yourself, I would say it would be bad form, and possibly have a risk of copyright issues. I would avoid such when possible.
--
Idea :

For the Head : I had thought at one point that we might be able to do a bit by resizing the default head mesh, and then resizing the other features, like noses, brows, lips, eyes, hair, etc... to the same scale. If we could do that, we could assign them EASILY to the new head, and go from there. That would give us a fully functional head, with full scars, noses, and options for the head. (Even if for just vanilla character options). That would give options to edit the kids that are already in the game to be more unique as well, so they aren't all just tossed out of a cloning chamber. )

Option 2 on this would be...

If we could get a skeleton to recognise the head that is normal default, but the full body skeleton is scaled down to the normal level of a child, and the head of the child is proportionally larger (as normal), we MIGHT be able to use the same head, and just change the skeleton scale. That would allow different kid forms, to use the same head, without swapping things out between age levels... Just put the head on the body, and have it scale the head/neck accordingly.

(*shrugs*) ... Not sure if that's possible, but I do know that you can setscale a head/body, and all the markings will scale accordingly. If the head can be setscaled on the body, by way of skeleton config, it might be a solution we need, and trim a lot of problems overall.

Just an idea I had a while back.

--

Animations : No experience. If I can't edit a mesh, there is no reason for me to even try and sweat an animation based off of them. (*shrugs*)

--

As for the argonians... The catcher is, we don't know if they are cold or warm blooded, for sure. We know dragons will survive in the cold, fully naked, without a issue... They are lizards of a form, but are not cold blooded (they can't be, or they would freeze on the mountain tops). ... Accordingly, we don't know if the Argonians share that same aspect. They are known to be in deep water also. Underwater species are also prone to have a protective layer of something under the scales (skin, fat, whatever) that helps to regulate heat in cold temperatures of the deep (something needed if you go deep in the water, where such IS definitely needed after just a hundred feet or so). If you got gills and are that height, you have likely developed to going down that deep when possible.

The catcher is : They probably wouldn't care about the lower regions either... It's just another part of them, like the hand, or a crest on the head. That means that they often would, at most, bother with a loincloth at most.

Now, true, they would be inclined for dressing up if it's too cold for them, but we really don't know their solid limits.

As for the Hot springs, I do agree. That would be a nice thing that they would be attracted to.

--
For the Khajit, a 4 breasted model would be possible, and able to be reasonably done. Not wanting to run afoul of certain rules, you might want to check some pics for yourself. There are some tastefully versions out there to look at for a reference. You can find some with various drawn werewolf pictures. You can also find some with some decent special effects pics from movies and the like.
Real pic Example:
The Movie ... "The Warrior and the Sorceress"

Most I have seen have had multiple sets, one under the other, and the top set is large, perhaps a C cup, at most. The second set would be under it, partially overlapping, and be MABY an A cup, and then any other sets would be flat with the torso. I got several pics, but they might violate posting rules, so not wanting to get into such that much.

The thing to remember about the "Strange" look is... It's based on what you are familiar or comfortable with. If they are like that normally, it's normal, and they won't care. If you never saw or dealt with them before, they would look ALL STRANGE... if you are around them all the time, it's "Oh, that again? ... whatever... Ok, back to work." (*smiles and shrugs*)

As for the bra(s), I disagree. Hair will provide a bit of protection for them, and as such, it would be given about as much concern as one's wrist. Sure, if it's extreme, you may want to get a long glove to cover, but with cover there already, or very close nearby, it will likely not be a concern for them unless they are agreeing to dress for the sake of the human modesty, and keeping the peace with them. I personally think they would honestly go nude, unless they are going to be around people... and even then, with them having their natural fur, they wouldn't care if they didn't either, if it's strictly up to them, and not a social or convienience issue.

---
Now for the question that rings true, and is a real hot-spot for topic and conflict.

If the child body for the cat is mostly the same as the child body for the humans, and we don't put clothing on the cat, why put it on the humans as a default?

They would see the basics on the Khajit anyways... so if we use the same type of form, then we might as well not worry about a band.... Of course, if we don't put on a band, bikini, or some other form of cover, that might be a red flag for people, and get certain issues involved. I know that Nexus doesn't agree with such child bodies being posted here without modesty factors due to Porn and Pedophilia laws, and the concerns they have related to such... but if you do it for one race (no top for khajit), then why not for all? ... But, if you talk to the right people, and look at the definitions of things, Porn and pedophilia deals with sexual activity. If a kid runs around naked, and isn't involved in such, then it's not TECHNICALLY in that area of interest. On the other hand, if you talk to the right people who have a foot fetish, they can see a shoe catalogue, and that could be porn for them, thanks to the interests they have, so should the high heel mods be considered "Porn" and classified accordingly as "Adult" mods? ... (*smiles*) ... Then, the question would arrise, would you want to make 2 versions of it, a everyone naked, and a everyone modest version... and then release one here, and the other elsewhere, where such would be accepted ... then the question comes "If we do that with another site, why make one for here? it's just more work to do both."

... See the catcher? Lots of legal loopholes, landmines, complications and questions that have to be asked and figured out before it's all done.

But... the bikini/band/pastie/modesty cover is a texture issue at it's core... We would need meshes at first, and we don't even have that resource available right now. (*smiles and shrugs*)

AuroraMoon

Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:03 PM

AuroraMoon

Regular

Members

60 posts

Idea :

For the Head : I had thought at one point that we might be able to do a bit by resizing the default head mesh, and then resizing the other features, like noses, brows, lips, eyes, hair, etc... to the same scale. If we could do that, we could assign them EASILY to the new head, and go from there. That would give us a fully functional head, with full scars, noses, and options for the head. (Even if for just vanilla character options). That would give options to edit the kids that are already in the game to be more unique as well, so they aren't all just tossed out of a cloning chamber. )

Option 2 on this would be...

If we could get a skeleton to recognise the head that is normal default, but the full body skeleton is scaled down to the normal level of a child, and the head of the child is proportionally larger (as normal), we MIGHT be able to use the same head, and just change the skeleton scale. That would allow different kid forms, to use the same head, without swapping things out between age levels... Just put the head on the body, and have it scale the head/neck accordingly.

(*shrugs*) ... Not sure if that's possible, but I do know that you can setscale a head/body, and all the markings will scale accordingly. If the head can be setscaled on the body, by way of skeleton config, it might be a solution we need, and trim a lot of problems overall.

Just an idea I had a while back.

I like the first option myself. it's actually something I'm attempting to do right now myself. still slightly new to meshing though, so I'm scared that I'll f*** it up.

Here's the face I was messing with in Daz Studio using a mixture of the Victora and Maddie models:

If Daz gives me permission to use that, then it's something I would like to use for the female kid in Skyrim. What do you think? If Daz say that I can't use their default stuff for skyrim, then I'll just attempt to model something similar in 3d max.

-----------------------------------------I never saw the big deal with Nudity myself. I mean, I live in America and in one of the most prudish states possible and I still do not equate Nudity with porn itself. The way I see it, we were all born naked, and we're just naked underneath our clothes. lol.

But yeah, there is a lot of sickos out there who would love to use the nudity itself as a excuse for their own behaviors, just like how they would use the way a woman is dressed as justification to rape her. It doesn't matter of she's dressed like a prudish nun, chances are that somebody out there is going to find that appealing. Heck in the state where I live, there was two elderly women who were around the 67-80 age range who got raped a few weeks ago. They were both prudish bible-thumping grandmothers, so I doubt they were dressed like hookers. So that's why I can't help but scoff at how people still hold the outdated concept that rape itself is all about sexual arousal, instead of about power! I don't think that pedophiles truly attracted to the bodies of children as so much as they are attracted to the child's vulnerability, and the power they have over the children. The child in question could be dressed like a stereotypical female Muslim with only their eyes showing, and the pedophiles would still be gravitating towards the child because the child would give out this aura of vulnerability.

Rape in all forms, espeically that of Child Rape, does not equal Sex. It equals power, which appeals to pathetic losers who feels the need to feel powerful over somebody even more weaker than them. This is something that people don't understand... they tend to confuse the two, and so they think that nudity is what causes people to go out there and rape like crazy. Because of course to them, Nudity equals sex.

That said, I still wouldn't want the children of skyrim to suddenly start wearing adult gear and doing "sexy" adult things. And Skyrim is a pretty damn cold place, so I'd be worried for the child's welfare if I saw one running around completely in the nude.

The only issue I have with the skin textures is the fact that the underwear just seems too painted on. I feel that maybe there should be some kind of underwear mesh for them, so that it looks more natural on them. Maybe some nice wool underwear, like in this image: http://www.theretrok...bestway148a.jpg I think it could be like that default nude man mesh... where he had that loincloth thingy when you took off his clothes. *shrugs*

Rex1029

Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:24 PM

Rex1029

Old hand

Members

776 posts

well, if you are scared that you will muck it up, there is a simple solution to that. Copy it in 2 different (maby 3) locations. That way, you tinker with one, and if it works, you copy that modified form for backup. If you royally louse it up, say "Ok, that didn't work. Start from scratch." ... Then you erase the one you just worked on, and copy the backup again, and start from square one.

Face looks ok. The catcher would be setting up the full head size in relation to the body, and then getting all the other bits and bobs working with the new head (alternate noses, eyebrows, brow ridges, chins, scars, warpaints, etc...) so they don't look the same again.

Agreed on the power thing, to a degree. The catch is, so many people want to eliminate the risk of an activity by trying to either hide or get rid of everything that reminds of it, and that doesn't work. The physical body is still there, and isn't going anywhere. When it comes to the attraction thing, however, that is a personal opinion. It can be anything, including the power, the body form, the kid's hairstyle, or anything else that makes that connection. I see that as a personal issue of the individual discussed, and each is different. As such, I won't say that they aren't attracted to the body. It would be the same type of thing as the person with a foot fetish, just a different body part stressed.

I have supprised a few people with a simple tangent of that line. I said (basicly) to them "What would you say if I told you that you could come over to my house, but you had to wear armor when you do? ... You would probably wonder what is going on at my house that they need armor. If I told you 'nothing, I just want you to wear armor while there.' ... You would probably arch an eyebrow, and not show up anytime soon... I stand by the position that ALL Clothing is Armor. It is designed to cover and protect you. Some keep you warm. Others keep you cool. Others cushion or protect against projectiles, or let you take in information properly, allowing you a protected status while guarding your eyes, or other such things." "Ahh, I found a flaw in your statement. A T-Shirt doesn't guard anything, and it easily torn, or soaked through. How is that armor?" "Simple... Some people are over-paranoid about silly things... Not every T-Shirt is thin. It traps a thin layer of air around the body for simple temperature regulation. Other side is a tangent that most churches push to almost paranoid levels... Ever hear of protecting your modesty? ... I never said all threats armored against would threaten injury to the body. I stand by my statement, and it is still classified as armor. How does that layer NOT protect your modesty? and finally, as you said, besides your modesty and that VERY minor thermal layer, what else WOULD it seriously protect at all times OTHER THAN your modesty? Why is your modesty so special that it needs special armor at all times? " ... they didn't really have a reply to that one, outside of opinion, or personal preference.

Now, as to the adult gear, I would say that would be dependant on the individual playing. There have been many historical cases of young kids that sneak things from parents closets, or stores, or other such things, and use that gear themselves, even when young (rangeing from simple magazines to actual toys and clothes of varied types). I understand it being last priority, but I would let the player decide that one. They are ultimately, this character's parents, in a technical manner. As I think Bill Cosby said "I brought you into this world, I can take you out, and make another one just like you!" The player can do that with every character, so they are the parents of the character, in a technical manner.

I would be concerned on the naked kid running around as well, but that doesn't address the possibilities in a hot-tub or in the house, or in a hot-spring (like the argonian retreat in the example earlier)... They would be suited just fine to that environment without clothes.

As for the underwear, I disagree with you on that. I would say a thin, string bikini style would be better suited in this game as a primary underwear layer.
Why? :
The wool underwear like that is TOO extensive for a proper "Underwear" level. They would want to protect that. This would bring a need for a thin Under layer to that to protect from accidents from ruining the whole garment. They would use a garment that was easy to make, fast to make, and had minimal hastles. Add to that the fact that kids are in constant growth, and that they could be tied, untied, and adjusted for a proper fit until it either was totally unuseable, or in proper place, and it's a better decision for a "underwear" aspect. Technically, what you showed would be better suited as a middle-wear layer, maby between the thin underwear, and a outer layer of pajamas. The people of skyrim would be VERY focused on protecting the proper, heavy gear against unreasonable wear and tear that will damage it, and as much as kids go through clothes, constant skid marks in thick winter gear would be "Unreasonable wear and tear that will damage it" in most people's opinion, along the same line as skid marks in a winter coat. It's a LOT easier, and a lot less effort, and less money down the drain to toss a rag that was a bikini bottom, than to toss a set of quilted pants/shorts. And kids aren't known for having the most significant control of such processes. See the point?

Also, it would be easier to work with in some other clothing. It would allow a child to have bare arms, or a bare mid-drift area, and have a degree of flexibility for areas that would be otherwise exposed. Too much already there, and you might as well just lock them in a bunny suit with just the face exposed... Sure, might be fun for a bit, You might get a surge of people getting it around easter, but people would get tired of the body form, and it's graphical restrictions, and drop it really quick. (*shrugs*)

AuroraMoon

Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:00 AM

AuroraMoon

Regular

Members

60 posts

I guess it's just one of those things that we have to agree to disagree on.

Quite frankly, with Skyrim being an land of constant winter I just can't foresee children going around in outfits that bare their midriffs. and if you looked at the wool underwear, their arms were bare and so were most of their legs. I think Parents would be more concerned with keeping their little angels bundled up in warm clothing so that they don't catch some illness and then die. To them, having their kids safe and warm in wool clothing and undergarments would greatly outweigh the money saved on using bikini bottoms. espeically if using Bikinis meant that their kids would no longer have a protective layer that kept them warm.

After all, you see it in real life. kids used to bundle up in woolen undergarments before putting on clothes. this seriously kept them warm in cold places, and saved them from things like Hypothermia... which was often deadly back then.

at any rate, I think the painted on underwear as it is right now has a good shape... I just think it needs to look like it's not painted on. it should look as if it was a real mesh all along, instead of being a part of the body.

Sorry, but I'm trying to go for realism... it's one of the reasons why I don't download any bare-midriff outifts or anything for Skyrim. I like for the armor to look like real armor, etc... and for all of it to look like it could keep my character from frostbite.