Question

When I read the literature designed to keep suicidal folk living for one more day, I'm always struck by the way they talk. It's very much a case (or at least seems to me to be) that they think that we all want to live, deep down, but that outside forces are making it so that death is preferable to the way life is AT THE MOMENT. That it is the only way out of our current situation but that we're fighting to get through that situation so that we can come out the other side - still alive. We just need to be reminded that 'this too will pass' or that we're strong. Is that how it is with everyone else? Do you all feel that way?

Or is there, perhaps, someone out there that feels like me - the opposite. I WANT to die. To be gone. To have nothing left of me anymore. It's outside forces that keep conspiring to keep me here (that and the fact that I'm a pathetic coward). I actively RESENT the people in my life, that force me to live (not that they know I want to die). I want there to be no-one, no reason for me to live so that I can finally go through with it without feeling that I'm letting everybody down.

You bring up a good point about a great deal of the literature. I think it's partly triage: people who are more ambivalent about taking their lives are more often saved, at least to the point where things start to look better for them. I think the general feeling in the mental health community is that anyone who really, & unequivocally wants to die will find a way. So what's left to discuss, but method? & they're not going to do that.

I think I understand how you feel about recovering &/or staying alive. Now that my son is grown I really don't deserve to be alive anymore. It just torments me to imagine having to live another twenty or twenty-five years. What for? But I can't do that to my wife of more than three decades. She deserves better. So I'm kind of stuck here, having to shape up, but ship out

I get that they're trying to save those that can, and want, to be saved but I just feel that they don't even seem to acknowledge that other viewpoints exist. I don't know about you (or anyone else) but it made me feel that I was odd in feeling differently (not that it's considered normal to feel suicidal). I already feel like I don't fit in in this world so to feel that I don't fit in with suicidal people just seemed rather...well, typical really but I hope you get what I mean.

Having said that, I'm not sure that I'm putting anything right and I'm sorry if I've confused or upset anyone.

Can I ask, if it isn't too personal - Does your wife know how you feel? Feel free to ignore me. I understand.

Yes I feel that too and I don't like when people are always trying to keep me alive. Is this what I am talking about? No. They totally dismiss the very bad emotions I am going through and they think that giving us a solution is the way to go. At the point when I am feeling very down, I am not really interested in their point of view of life. So you think that it is good to keep on fighting and stay alive! Good for you! But please don't impose that on me (internal dialogue with these people).

At the moment it is really difficult to explain these feelings of suicidal ideations. I am not going to pretend that I understand any of it. But a preacher is not what I want when I am in these crises (unfortunately I am going through one somewhat right now). It hurts to feel so lonely, it hurts to feel so misunderstood. Things are going really bad and all we need is another person to add to this misery? We are talking about the idea of death, they are talking about the idea of life. At moments of crises we need a compassionate person not someone who wants to teach us the way of life. It is strange.

What is so wrong about talking about death? Even when I was healthy I sometimes thought of death. Maybe it is ok to think about it. Sometimes it just hurts too much to remember that people are so opposed to it.

I think I understand you perfectly. Never forget, Wisp, the fault lies not with you, but with those who would lump all human behavior into one or another category. Suicidality, like sexual orientation, runs the gamut, from gestures to laying your head on the railroad tracks. I've been reading some books & articles about suicide & depression lately (well, all of my life, really;-). One, that was fairly well known, "How I Survived When My Mind Was Trying to Kill Me", written by a woman who referred to all of her attempts as "gestures" & indeed mentioned taking an overdose then calling for help immediately after. I read partway into the first chapter before deciding this wasn't maybe what I was looking for.

Even when when I was 15 I assumed I would die--what sticks most prominently in my mind was the feeling of apprehension about impending death, but even more, I felt safe. Reassured that my days of crap unlimited were finally over.

Bear in mind I'm not saying gestures oughtn't be taken seriously, & it's perfectly valid to re-consider & summon aid. Wendy O. Williams did that once, called for help. The very next time, however, she shot herself to death. People are always more complicated than any principle can state.

I don't mind your question about my wife at all. We were both of us hospitalized at different times in the 1980s for major depression & suicidal ideation. Since then we've had our ups & downs. More recently things have been going quite well, which leaves me even more baffled & frustrated at my attitude.

Although I have not discussed this with her directly, after 32 years of marriage it's unrealistic to imagine you hold any real secrets from you spouse;-)

I get a feeling that those people trying to keep us alive are not in any way doing it for us, but for their own sake. For their own fear of death or something. Even people who are not religious act fanaticly as if suicide is the most forbidden act.

Sure there are probably a lot of youngsters who are just in a bad place right now and will get better or some people who have a midlife crise or something, but for some, like me, living with depression is our way of life. I've been depressed almost all my life (since 14 till 35) and I would prefer help to die instead.

We don't try to keep the poor burn victim concious when he is in horrible pain, but we try to keep deeply depressed people alive at all costs. Yeah, the metaphor isn't perfect, but my point is that the finality and irrevocability of scares people to react strongly against death.
Sooner or later we all will be dead any way, so why so imporant to postpone it?

I can appreciate how you all feel, I really do. I had my first breakdown at 15 because of *stuff* too long-winded to try and explain in a sentence. From there, I've, yes, also been fighting *stuff* my whole life ...the parts that still need healing....
I understand the wish for oblivion, I really do.

However..... that being said...... oblivion isn't an option, as much as we might like to believe otherwise.

The thing to do is to start asking the right empowering questions: 1) "Why do I want oblivion?" -- answer: resentment at life and the expectations of others/limitations I'm faced with/too much pressure/lack of confidence/it would have been so much better never to have been born, etc.

2) "Am I being affected in my thinking by this "microwave" culture that insists the solution to everything has to be found NOW and made to work?"

I promise you, that learning a different way of thinking, will result in a different way of feeling.......... We can get in control of our thinking to stop it going down those old familiar grooves in our minds. I never thought this could ever happen for me, but it has been happening these last 15 years, and if it can happen for me, it can happen for anyone.

The place where I am now, has been arrived at by searching for insight. I promise you, it is there to be found - but definitely not in the microwave

Hmm well I'd love to have a good happy life and I'm perfectly capable of doing so. But to me it seems like outside forces are preventing that from ever being a possibility. I just want to end things because I don't want to suffer anymore.

Honestly I'm kind of confused by people with good lives who just want to die. One of my best friends is that way, I always thought he was crazy. Told him to get a girlfriend. Now I'm in the same boat! I think if there is some way for you to obtain regular happiness (either with a mate or lots of money, whatever) then you should go for it. But then I don't really know what goes on in that head of yours. Hang in there!

To efgywsdfa - I believe that most cultures enforce the suicide is wrong idea which, I suppose, from a biological imperative, it is. I think where the impetus to die comes from really makes a massive difference to what kind of help you want (and is likely to work).

To urPrecious - I appreciate that you're trying to help by telling others what works for you (and I'm glad for you that you're doing better) but surely you can understand that what works for some won't work for all. I think, also, that you're wrong in saying that oblivion isn't an option. I think that depends on whether or not there's a life after death and I think that's a matter of faith not fact. Does that make sense?

To ksmith86 - As you say, it's external forces that have changed your viewpoint. When those external forces change, you'll have a better chance of being happy. For others, it's the other way around. Internal forces are the things that are not allowing you to be happy, no matter how good your life might be otherwise. It's much harder to change internal forces and, worse still, there is no break - no chance of moving away. You are always with you, no matter what else you do. There really is only one way to get away from the hell you put yourself through, remove yourself from the equation. Hence the wish to die. Does that make sense?

edited to add-I realised that I made it sound as though I felt that the depression/suicidal wish caused by external forces was somehow less than that caused by internal forces. I don't. Each have their own problems. Each can make life unbearable. People are never so simple as to be able to be put into a few boxes saying this, this and this are we and nothing more. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that anyone's misery was less than anothers. That's not my judgement to make. I hope that helps to clarify things, if not then be assured, no offense is meant. It's simply that I lack the language to adequately express my thoughts and feelings.

Yeah it makes sense wispi. As bad as my "external" situation is, I'd still be considered blessed by a lot of people. There's many things I can draw happiness from and even the worst case scenario is still survivable (and could even have a positive impact on me). Yet I still act as though the world is coming to an end. So it could be said that my internal forces are what's actually causing me to feel suicidal. I have the power to "think happy thoughts" and yet I often choose not to.

When you think about ending it, what is it exactly that you think about? Are you just generally sure that no matter how good things get you'll never be happy? Or is happiness besides the point for you? My friend was never really able to explain why he felt the way he did. I just chocked it up as not having a woman in his life (though I don't necessarily agree with that now). Do you have a girlfriend? Just curious

Perhaps it's a combination. The external situation is bad which is compounded by your personality going to the dark side (I want to say 'of the force there' sorry). In a way, though, isn't your life AS YOU KNOW IT coming to an end? Whatever happens you won't be exactly the same person as you were before all this happened, will you? Maybe you should allow yourself to feel bad about the way things have turned out. Have a chance to grieve for what was and what might have been if only. It's a thought anyway.

We ALL have the power to think happy thoughts its just that, sometimes, it can seem a bit stupid to do so. When reality sucks beyond measure, going along going 'isn't life wonderful' does make you seem like a bit of a fruit cake - does that make sense?

What I want is to stop. For there to be no more me. I'm scared of the possibility of an afterlife. I have this sneaking suspicion that I've already killed myself and this is my punishment - to keep living anyway with no end in sight. The idea of forever terrifies me. I just want to stop. Finally. Completely. Stop.

It's difficult to describe how I feel because a lot of the time, I don't. I remember feelings, as if I dreamt about them, but I don't feel most of them anymore. All I get is sadness, fear, anger and despair. Nothing good. The last time I felt happy I wrote it down because it had been such a long time since I'd felt it. It didn't last long, of course, and now I can't remember what it felt like. I don't think it matters what happens to me, in that respect, the facility for feeling that particular emotion seems to be gone. I'm not sure why so I can't say that it will ever come back. It might but since all my emotions have been slowly slipping away, I suspect not.

And since you asked, I'm married. Doesn't help. Makes things worse in some respects.

You have a very beautiful way of expressing your self... May I ask, what, if any thing would change all of this thinking, and make you happy? In other words, if you could wipe the slate clean, so to speak, and start over tomorrow, what might you wish for, have, or do differently (from here on out)? If you're confused by my reasoning, it's only because I'm probably a whole lot better at asking questions than giving answers...

Thanks but I don't. What I write is but a poor shadow of what's in my head.

What do I need to change to make me happy? Me. I'd need to be a different person. A better person. Someone that could do all the things that I feel that I should be able to do but can't. A stronger person that doesn't give up all the time. The kind of person that people can lean on. I'd need to be more than I am. I'm not sure that I'm putting it particularly well but I hope that you get the idea.

I bet that you can do any and or all of those things and more! Do your best to try not to put limitations on your abilities. Whatever mistakes you've made, or goals you haven't yet achieved can be accomplished and conquered. It doesn't matter what's happened before, the only thing--or the most important thing--going forward is to free your mind over and about what you can and cannot do. What did Abraham Lincoln say, "Whether you think I can, or I can't, either way you're probably right."

I'm sorry but I think you'd lose your bet. Nice idea but it's not necessarily me that's putting limitations on my abilities. I try to do things, but I can't. I fail. Even if I could forget the failures of the past, that won't stop me from failing in the future. It's futile. But thanks for the thought.

Perhaps it's a combination. The external situation is bad which is compounded by your personality going to the dark side (I want to say 'of the force there' sorry). In a way, though, isn't your life AS YOU KNOW IT coming to an end? Whatever happens you won't be exactly the same person as you were before all this happened, will you? Maybe you should allow yourself to feel bad about the way things have turned out. Have a chance to grieve for what was and what might have been if only. It's a thought anyway.

We ALL have the power to think happy thoughts its just that, sometimes, it can seem a bit stupid to do so. When reality sucks beyond measure, going along going 'isn't life wonderful' does make you seem like a bit of a fruit cake - does that make sense?

What I want is to stop. For there to be no more me. I'm scared of the possibility of an afterlife. I have this sneaking suspicion that I've already killed myself and this is my punishment - to keep living anyway with no end in sight. The idea of forever terrifies me. I just want to stop. Finally. Completely. Stop.

It's difficult to describe how I feel because a lot of the time, I don't. I remember feelings, as if I dreamt about them, but I don't feel most of them anymore. All I get is sadness, fear, anger and despair. Nothing good. The last time I felt happy I wrote it down because it had been such a long time since I'd felt it. It didn't last long, of course, and now I can't remember what it felt like. I don't think it matters what happens to me, in that respect, the facility for feeling that particular emotion seems to be gone. I'm not sure why so I can't say that it will ever come back. It might but since all my emotions have been slowly slipping away, I suspect not.

And since you asked, I'm married. Doesn't help. Makes things worse in some respects.

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You're a genius wisp. I've thought of the "dark side" thing myself. I'll probably never see life the same way after this. And you totally blew my mind when you said my life as I KNOW it is coming to an end. That's not a bad way of looking at things and it explains this sense of impending doom! You're right in that I AM essentially grieving the loss of my old life and aspirations.

Also I'm with ya on the feelings thing. It's hard for me to get much better than "fine" right now. The way you describe things it almost seems similar to the way someone who'd lived for a thousand years might feel... bored and pointless. Maybe you've somehow tricked yourself into that perspective. Are you into existentialism? This seems like you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

Wisp.. i do not know what to wish for you. oblivion is nothing.. dust to dust and such.. it is not finding peace.. or anything else good.. i do not believe in suicide..am just a loss in what to say to you..you get death you will not be happy then.. you will just be gone forever.. also do not believe in an afterlife..

i am 65 yrs old now with a son johnny who is almost 36 now.. he is severely autistic adn non verbal and i love him more than all the other people and stuff in my world.. i am recovereing from severe depression. ocd, schizaffective and psychosis, agorophobia and dissociation which started 60 yrs ago cause i could not stay in the present and be a part of what was happening to me.. john and i have had a difficult life previously.. is still rough sometimes but overall things are much better for both of us now..

i believe that just about any condition and situation can get better.. there is so much talk of death here in this thread.. that makes me depressed.. but tomorrow morning i will wake and turn on the coffee and when done will have a hot cup along with a marlboro and somme good music on my ipad at a sound level which will not wake john up.. i will enjoy the whole thing.. the depresssion of mine will not be present cause the pills will be working then. in a couple of hours johnny will come prancing down the hall on his tiptoes with a wonderful smile on his face to join me.. this too shall pass but i will enjoy this while i got it .. jim and john

You're a genius wisp. I've thought of the "dark side" thing myself. I'll probably never see life the same way after this. And you totally blew my mind when you said my life as I KNOW it is coming to an end. That's not a bad way of looking at things and it explains this sense of impending doom! You're right in that I AM essentially grieving the loss of my old life and aspirations.

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I'm not a genius but I'm glad that I helped, even if only a little bit.

Also I'm with ya on the feelings thing. It's hard for me to get much better than "fine" right now. The way you describe things it almost seems similar to the way someone who'd lived for a thousand years might feel... bored and pointless. Maybe you've somehow tricked yourself into that perspective. Are you into existentialism? This seems like you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

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I find it hard to get my head around philosophy (told you I'm not a genius). I suppose it is absurd to expect to be given meaning in life. If you believe in a deity (or more) then, presumably, the creator's mind and reasons for creating us would be so far beyond our understanding as to be impossible and, of course, if you don't believe in god (of any kind) then our existence is just a peculiar happenstance so how can there be any meaning in that?

Whether or not we can create our own meaning within our lives, I guess thats a matter of opinion but then, isn't everything?

Wisp.. i do not know what to wish for you. oblivion is nothing.. dust to dust and such.. it is not finding peace.. or anything else good.. i do not believe in suicide..am just a loss in what to say to you..you get death you will not be happy then.. you will just be gone forever.. also do not believe in an afterlife..

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Thank you but I don't expect you to wish anything for me nor do I expect to be happy. Happiness is a fleeting emotion and, to be honest, I'm not sure that I'd know what to do with it if I had it. Permanent happiness is not possible normally and wouldn't be a good thing even if it were - it would lead to stagnation. If everything is perfect, then there is nothing to strive for - no change required. Stagnation and death result.

To be gone, forever, will suit me fine. No more thinking. No more feeling (or not feeling as the case can be). Finally resting.

i am 65 yrs old now with a son johnny who is almost 36 now.. he is severely autistic adn non verbal and i love him more than all the other people and stuff in my world.. i am recovereing from severe depression. ocd, schizaffective and psychosis, agorophobia and dissociation which started 60 yrs ago cause i could not stay in the present and be a part of what was happening to me.. john and i have had a difficult life previously.. is still rough sometimes but overall things are much better for both of us now..

i believe that just about any condition and situation can get better.. there is so much talk of death here in this thread.. that makes me depressed.. but tomorrow morning i will wake and turn on the coffee and when done will have a hot cup along with a marlboro and somme good music on my ipad at a sound level which will not wake john up.. i will enjoy the whole thing.. the depresssion of mine will not be present cause the pills will be working then. in a couple of hours johnny will come prancing down the hall on his tiptoes with a wonderful smile on his face to join me.. this too shall pass but i will enjoy this while i got it .. jim and john

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I'm sorry that things have been so bad for you and yes, there is a lot of talk of death in this thread (and probably this part of the forum). Might I suggest that, if that bothers you, you frequent other areas where it's not so likely to be discussed? I hope that you're right and that tomorrow (or rather, today) is better and that you find things to enjoy.