X:X Right on! Its easy to forget that there as many ways to keep bees as there are keepers (many more than there are ways to skin a cat... :-D) and we are all capable of redirecting most any topic. Take what you need, leave what you don't.

This my friend is as good of Forum/Beekeeping advice as I've ever seen. :-D

and I will disagree. I hate foundationless. I have tried it. When a colony dies which seems to always happen sooner or later the frames are to fragile and often collapse.

? "Frames" are too fragile? My frames are heavier than anything you will buy that HAS foundation in them.. not too sure HOW a frame collapses... I have seen NEW wax collapse when it was hot and it was mishandled.. but in my mediums I can extract honey by spinning them without blowing them out, so a "frame" collapsing sounds like something wasnt done right???

I didn't say frames collapes. We are talking about foundation here not frames

When a colony dies which seems to always happen sooner or later the frames are to fragile and often collapse.

Well I confuse easily.. My wife manages to confuse me half a dozen times a day so I am used to it...

Fresh new wax is soft, and unless its secured all the way around it takes a lot of care when handling it. (especially when its hot out) Once it starts to darken it is a bit easier to deal with. Even fresh wax that is secured all the way around is pretty stable, but once it hardens a bit it takes a pretty good goof to get it to let go. (like dropping it complete with the bees on board.. NOT good!! yes I have) I like all mediums because it allows me to move frames around easier, and the wax is more stable, less span, so more strength. Not to mention the fact that I am getting older each day and they are lighter than deeps... I use the small cell plastic frame/foundation as spacers/guides when starting a new hive, then remove them as they begin to fill out the foundationless frames... I have found that they go very quickly for the foundationless and leave the plastic alone, which allows me to use it as a guide to get them started, then replace the plastic with empty wood frames later. I had heard a lot of horror stories about foundationless, and it took a bit for friends/local beeks, to get me to use them, Then it took a bit of getting used to "squaring" the odd comb that didnt quite follow the point on the frame... Once that experience was.... experienced, and handled, I am very glad I stuck with it. The versatility of all mediums, and the ability to swap out frames in brood boxes/supers PLUS being able to cut out queen cells or MAKE queen cells to cut out using foundationless had me wishing I had started that way. I only have two hives left with deeps, and by spring I hope to get those swapped out and cut down.

Everyone likes something different, and much of what you do depends on how involved you want to get. Building my own frames costs me .17 cents a frame to make. (IF I have to buy the wood!) The last batch I made numbered 500. At the cost of wood frames and Ritecell.. i saved over 900 dollars on JUST those frames.. which, to me is reason enough to go foundationless.. and I wont get into the other controversial reasons.. suffice it to say, that you should read everything you can, take everything with a grain of salt, and decide how YOU think your bees will benefit the most.. The saying goes, that if you ask two beekeepers the same question, you will get three different answers.. I tend to think that if you asked two beeks the same question twice, you would get eight different answers!!! The hardest part of being a Beek, is deciphering, translating, and decrypting those answers, and then applying your own method!" What I posted is working WELL for me... but ask me again in a year. :-D

when ever foundationless is mentioned the whole foundationless led by MB jumps in to tell the new guy how great it is. Its the only way to go and if you listen to us you will be chemical free. In the 7 years I have been here I have seen literally 100s of newbees make it through there first year and crash on the 2nd. Many of them quit at that time. No one wants to question MB. I for one am not on that bandwagon and not afraid to say so. I dont tell the new people that my way is the only way. Its just the way I do things and will continue to Useing the shallow frames as someone stated above was not a option as I use double deeps and always have. I have over 250 of them and along with my deep nuc's have over 3000 frames to fit them so its not the time to change. For supers I do use shallows for comb honey but only make about 10 boxes a year. The rest are mediums and number is close to 300 with 9 frames each. Thats about 2700 frames About 500 of those are honey super cell drone comb and the rest are rite-cell

Foundationless beekeeping began long before MB was even born. MB is a knowlegeable Beek but he'd be the first to admit that he didn't invent it. Saint Lorenzo anyone? But even he didn't invent the concept...............BEES DID! 8-)

However, manufactured 'foundation' (and its related controversial issues) is relatively new to beekeeping and has a majority number of Beeks riding its 'bandwagon' .....many more than the foundationless crowd one can safely assume.....for now anyway.

I'd bet there are many (a majority?) New Beeks who give up after a season or two, and that it has little to do with where they got their advise from. Frankly, Not everyone has the will to carry on with honeybees. So much like their die-off bees, or endless swarms (thanks newbeeks!) the new beekeeper quit rate is likely pretty steep as well.

danno: I didn't see anyone suggesting above that 'their way was the only way' in fact the opposite was implied...............Where'd that come from :?

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

I didn't say MB invented anything and as most know there is most likely nothing that has not been tried before. Even if it was never put into print I would guarantee someone or more like many have tried it. Go to the top and search foundationless and that would answer your last question. Just look at this thread, Royall asked about buys permadent or rite-cell Instantly after I said I use rite-cell 5 posts show up saying go foundationless. He didn't ask what anyones thought about foundationless

I didn't say MB invented anything and as most know there is most likely nothing that has not been tried before. Even if it was never put into print I would guarantee someone or more like many have tried it. Go to the top and search foundationless and that would answer your last question. Just look at this thread, Royall asked about buys permadent or rite-cell Instantly after I said I use rite-cell 5 posts show up saying go foundationless. He didn't ask what anyones thought about foundationless

Hey danno,I'm not an advocate of natural cell or foundationless. The reason I suggested it was the shipping costs to Hawaii is prohibitive. That's all. I was just trying to save Royall some money. I'm gonna give it, foundationless, a try this year and I felt that it would be an improvement over any plastic foundation. I don't have as much experience as you but what little I've experienced with plastic foundation was dismal no matter how I presented it to my bees. Could be my delivery method. I see that you have had success I would like to know how you introduce plastic foundation to your colonies.Ray

Lots of information here. I now remember reading a bit about foundationless when I first started building components for my Beek. I just forgot about what it was. I seems to me that there are pros and cons to both. Just about like any topic in any forum on any subject where it is about RC planes or Scuba diving.

I'll most likely stay with the plastic for now as that is what my Beek is doing and I'll be needing his help over the next several months. I believe (might be wrong) that is what the Beeks in my area are doing to. Why? Haven't a clue.

The idea of going with the smaller medium size boxes sounds like a good idea too. I'm not getting any younger (just turned 65) and the thought of packing around, what?, 90# box of honey sounds a little daunting!

I don't mind the thread hijack at all..... it is another way of learning! LOL

I'll have to agree with Danno on this. Especially as a new beekeeper, Royall stick with foundation. If you want to try foundationless at a later time you will have the ability to start slow. If you go all in now, you will most likely end up with a mess.

You will hear all the proponents tell you how great it is and push off the drawbacks as minor. I've been around beekeeping a long time and can remember when essential oils where the "golden" answer to overcome varroa. A lot of folks where subconsciously propping up their results because inside they wanted it to be the answer. I was one of the few who took a lot of heat for my skepticism based on my experience. You can see similar issues today with first year beekeepers that try non-standard varroa methods and claim victory after the first year, when in reality 95% of package bees have no varroa issues the first year with no treatment.

Anyway, back to the subject and your question. I switched to Mann Lake Rite Cell about 3 years ago and have no regrets. I have had zero problems with it. Trust me, I'm as frugal as the next beekeeper, but foundationless provided more headaches than the savings for me.

When/If you do try foundationless, do yourself a favor and put at least one wire in the frames for support. This will significantly help prevent comb failure. It won't help with overdrawn combs, but that is another issue.

I only use foundationless in my swarm traps and only use wired frames.

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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

Well I sure don't want to start a fight over all this but I must respectfully disagree :).

IMHO; If one is interested in running a FOUNDATIONLESS system 'there is no better' time to do so than at the very beginning, sure wish I had ;) A BEEK can learn a lot just watching the natural process of drawing out comb w/out the use of............. :?

It should be a reasonable expectation that those offering advise on 'certain' aspects or methods of beekeeping have also been 'successful' using those methods, no?

If one is unsuccessful with the implementation of a particular system it makes perfect sense to steer others away from that system ONLY for that reason. However, while it might make sense it lacks credibility in the real world and will raise the hackles of those who ARE successful at said methods.

Is that not a more reasonable approach? Just trying to keep options OPEN. (I've never had any reason to use wire in my foundationless system, I use all mediums)

NO OFFENSE INTENDED!

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

My first bees were from Wolf Creek Apiaries. These were advertised as 4.9mm bees and I believe that they were. I read up on small cell but missed the part about needing drawn comb to help guide the foundationless frames. End result, a mess that required a 10" knife to resolve. I just placed an order with Walter Kelly for 200 foundationless frames, 100 normal width, 100 narrow. The reason for this purchase is so I can "Open the Brood Nest" as a swarm deterrent in the spring and run 9 frames in my 8 frame brood boxes. My point is, Whether or not you use any system successfully or not, we all could use a dose of flexibility. I learned two principals that I apply to figuring out problems.1--If you do what you've always done, you will get what you've always got.2--One definition of Insanity is Doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.One of the most advantageous results about being a member of this forum is the diversity of systems our members use. This puts almost unlimited possible solutions just a click away.

IMHO; If one is interested in running a FOUNDATIONLESS system 'there is no better' time to do so than at the very beginning, sure wish I had ;) A BEEK can learn a lot just watching the natural process of drawing out comb w/out the use of............. :?

I assume you also advocate learning to swim by jumping off a boat in the ocean :?

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It should be a reasonable expectation that those offering advise on 'certain' aspects or methods of beekeeping have also been 'successful' using those methods, no?

If one is unsuccessful with the implementation of a particular system it makes perfect sense to steer others away from that system ONLY for that reason. However, while it might make sense it lacks credibility in the real world and will raise the hackles of those who ARE successful at said methods.

First of all, I have had success using foundationless frames, I have also had many headaches with it. I have found foundationless to not be worth the effort, and have found no benefit from it, you can have your own opinion. Yes sometimes you can get bad drawn comb on foundation, but nothing to the extent of foundationless. Why can I put an empty super of foundationless on two adjacent hives and one will draw nice frames and the other will overdraw every other? Why does Kelly sell two different width foundationless frames but only 1 width foundation frame?

No one is telling anyone not no try foundationless, we are just giving them the "other" side to your "greatest thing since sliced bread" sales pitch. If you know me at all, I continually tell folks to experiment and try things for themselves. Not to take advice from anybody as concrete way to do things, but figure out what works best for THEM.

Also keep in mind, just like everything else in beekeeping, it comes down to location and climate. Some areas are better for comb building than others. My particular climate is not advantageous to comb building.

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Is that not a more reasonable approach? Just trying to keep options OPEN. (I've never had any reason to use wire in my foundationless system, I use all mediums)

Like I said, no one saying not to try it, we are just suggesting not jumping in feet first based upon OUR experience.

You may have never had a comb failure, but from my experience and folks I talk too, you are the first foundationless person that I have heard this from. Perhaps you can advise how to get them to attach comb the the sides of the frame. This is what my experience has produced.

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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

Robo; Oh man, you didn't see that part about NO OFFENSE INTENDED, heh?

Yep, that's EXACTLY how I learned to swim...and I'm still a pretty good one ;)

Sure I've had 'some' issues with comb, but no more than I had when using foundation and all deeps. Those 'issues' made me a better Beek IMO.

Actually you 'are' telling people NOT to try foundationless (see above), apparently due to 'your' past and current experience. NOTHING wrong with pointing out our failures. That along with our successes will hopefully help someone make an informed decision on which direction to go. Its all about choices, no?

I'm ALSO offering a different opinion based on my own observations. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong. It doesn't have to be a debate unless you make it one.

OK, if you read my posts you'd agree that we both offer the same advise in that there is NO RIGHT or WRONG, we all do what we do and ideally share it in a manner that isn't offensive.....at least its what I 'try' to do.

I've likely said it over 100 times on this forum; THE ONLY EXPERTS ARE THE BEES. You'll have to show me where I've said something else.

Again; NO OFFENSE INTENDED.....maybe I should make that my tag line :-D

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Robo,I didn't have an option to order narrow end bars when I ordered frame assemblies. To get the narrow end bars I had to order them as repair parts. This drove up the per frame cost. I asked that the narrow option be offered for all frames. I found an added benefit is the use of solid bottom bars would be a reduction of hiding places for SHB. In my colonies I've found that the grooved or slotted bottom bars are favored by SHB along with every other nook or cranny the bees can't patrol.Ray

What a shame to add ridicule to an opinion :( That's the way to get ones point across...........

robo; The truth will always depend on where one stands. "Stand for something or fall for anything." Thanks for your open-mindness... :? Regardless what you may assume to know about me, you still remain one of my personal favorite posters.

NO OFFENSE but I'm gonna move on.

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

What a shame to add ridicule to an opinion :( That's the way to get ones point across...........

robo; The truth will always depend on where one stands. "Stand for something or fall for anything." Thanks for your open-mindness... :? Regardless what you may assume to know about me, you still remain one of my personal favorite posters.

NO OFFENSE but I'm gonna move on.

Wooo! My intent was not to ridicule, but to just add a little humor. My apologies if it came across wrong. The purpose of the forum is to share our different opinions and let the readers come to their own conclusions.

No offense taken, we all have different experiences and the diversity is what makes this place what it is.

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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison