Greedy Goblin

Monday, March 4, 2013

Elite PvP: Cormorant kills 3 Taloses

After I got 52B/month solo kills, the Elite PvP folks weren't amused. Actually they raged in 140+ comments on EN24 over my kills because they aren't "real" kills as the targets had no guns. I felt really bad that these great guys I want to belong don't approve my performance, so I went on a solo roam with a Cormorant destroyer, to get real, "l33t killz".

On my way to lowsec, luck shined upon me in the form of a suspect Talos sitting on the highsec side of a lowsec gate. Despite I was only in a Cormorant - like every l33t peep - I engaged. While it seemed to be hopeless, only by l33t skillz I emerged victorious. The ebbil piwate was mad and reshipped to another Talos to get revenge, but again he was no match to my mad skillz. Raging, he demanded one more round and as a honorable PvP-er, I granted him, but yet again l33t skillz defeated ship size. Now without doubt I've proven that I'm a real PvPr and should be respected for my knowledge of the art of pew.

OK, I think you are just as annoyed by this disgusting bragging written in kidspeak as I am writing it. Obviously, the 3 Taloses belonged to my alt who just idled peacefully while being slowly eaten by the destroyer. But still, I have 3 API verified kill reports of a Cormorant defeating 3 Taloses and there is absolutely no way for you to prove what really happened. Just like you have no way to prove that any of the worshipped "elite PvPers" are legitimate. I can call each and every one of them altkilling, remote-repped and boosted fakers who had a whole fleet of corpies clearing up gatecamps in his way, removing any threat and supplying easy kills. Again: I can call every single "elite PvP" videos and stories fakes, cheats, lies and there is nothing the author can do to disprove it, probably because most of them are indeed fakes, cheats and lies.

The only way to prove the "value" of a kill is a developer guarded tournament, like AT. Surprisingly we don't see a single ship destroying several larger ships on its own there, we see balanced encounters.

Creating "l33t killz" isn't even expensive, thanks to the several forms of welfare CCP provides to "for fun" PvP-ers. The largest - without doubt - is insurance:

53M ISK was created from thin air by CCP and given to the victim for each kills, just for being AFK while killed. But insurance isn't the only form of welfare, there are also bounties. While they aren't created from thin air, there are always idiots who have money to waste on this feature:

Add 18M more in drops and salvage and the cost of creating 316M kills was only 112.3M. Yes, you can turn every ISK you have into 3 ISK "elite solo" kills and I have no doubt that many people do so.

There is no such thing as proven skill in EVE. Ourside of AT, there is no way to tell anything about a kill besides that it happened. Therefore the only difference between PvP performance of players is ISK destroyed. So highsec gankers and alt-killing rich people are the best PvP-ers, no matter what the "elite" claims in their fake videos, made-up stories during their quest to gain false prestige among fellow lolling fakers.

Update: even if we accept that a properly skilled board of players can spot fakers by some pattern, such board does not exist so there is nothing that would stop a faker to gain elite status. Remember, CCP had to change neutral logies to suspect because using neut logies in highsec 1v1 was rather the norm. Despite the victim usually wrote a comment to the kill, no one cared and anyone looks up the pilot will accept the kill as a valid 1v1. My point is that without such board no one can be called elite, therefore the term "elite PvP" cannot exist.

What is exactly the point of your post? That killboard stats and PVP videos can be manipulated? Yes, they can - everyone knows that. KM whoring is nothing new. But, maybe you want to prove that real PVP people are not really real, because they fake their killboards? If that's the point, I suggest wearing a tinfoil hat. If not, I don't really get it. PVP players fight and kill for fun and infinitesimally small number of them do it only for bragging about arbitrary numbers. And in that I think only small percentage actively manipulate their stats. Everything is always verified when a real fight happens. And that fight is THE objective of a PVP player. not some meaningless stats.

Not sure if you are trolling, but I'll proceed on the assumption of good faith.

Your assertion is flawed, for several reasons. Firstly, I'll start with this stagement:

I can call every single "elite PvP" videos and stories fakes, cheats, lies and there is nothing the author can do to disprove it

The author doesn't need to. You are asserting that the story is fake, the burden of proof rests entirely with you. If they provide sufficient evidence that holds up to the scrutiny of the mainstream, then the vast body of proof runs contrary to what you are saying. You must overcome that body of proof.

Secondly, you seem to base your assumptions on 1v1s - what about "elite" small game entities who routinely fight out numbered. Rooks and Kings come to mind. Are they participating in an elaborate alt killing exercise, training up alts in capitals to gank in staged fights only to have to roll new toons for every video they make?

Next, you do quite obviously use an alt here. And I understand you are doing this to emphasise your point - however if this is happening on the scale you suggest it is happening it would be self evident. Anyone doing an analysis of somebody's PvP ability based on killboard stats looks fairly deeply. Patterns of repeated kills in similar situations with similar participants become patently obvious in a short period of time. That is to say, it is incredibly easy to determine if somebody is systematically alt killing.

You also make the following statement:

There is no such thing as proven skill in EVE. Ourside of AT, there is no way to tell anything about a kill besides that it happened.

Whilst this is true going straight of kill information, video evidence and well known PvP pilots are known for using skill. Tactics such as spiraling, slingshotting, orbit bucking and the like are all methods of flying (mostly found in smaller ships) which require real skill and can have a tangible and sometimes enormous impact on the outcome of a fight.

In fact, when you see frigates or fast cruisers fighting out numbered on killboards and winning, you can almost be certain that some measure of real pilot skill was utilized to achieve it.

The burden of proof always lies on the one who does the positive statement (the one that is different from default). The default state is that a cruiser can't kill a battleship. You have to prove if you do otherwise.

One of the examples in my 52B kill post was Rote Kapelle who kill 2x more than I alone, while having 240 members. So yes, they can afford to have all their kills on alts and R&K can afford it too. They actually don't have to roll alts, carebears would gladly take the part of the dead for a video. Alternatively the victims can be infiltrated by a spy who makes sure that their weaknesses are known, making them easy targets. So yes, I think those videos are pre-planned.

Obviously if someone doesn't want to be caught, he doesn't kill the same alt three times in 10 minutes. Various alts, mixed with real kills, kills on paid victims will do.

"The burden of proof always lies on the one who does the positive statement (the one that is different from default). The default state is that a cruiser can't kill a battleship. You have to prove if you do otherwise."

And the pilot does this with a video/KM. Now it's up to you to prove that he's lying.

In other words, you claim that all/most of PVP player achievements is manipulated? Yes/no?

The burden of proof always lies on the one who does the positive statement (the one that is different from default). The default state is that a cruiser can't kill a battleship. You have to prove if you do otherwise.

The positive or negative statement does not determine the who the burden of proof lies with.

And the default state is far from a cruiser can't kill a battleship. In fact there are many many situations where a cruiser will beat a battleship "1v1".

The burden of proof lies with the person who asserts something different to the prevailing opinion. That is you in this instance.

One of the examples in my 52B kill post was Rote Kapelle who kill 2x more than I alone, while having 240 members. So yes, they can afford to have all their kills on alts and R&K can afford it too. They actually don't have to roll alts, carebears would gladly take the part of the dead for a video. Alternatively the victims can be infiltrated by a spy who makes sure that their weaknesses are known, making them easy targets. So yes, I think those videos are pre-planned.

So now you've gone from failing at logic to complete tin foil hattery.

The largest and most respected PvP organisations in the game pre-plan their videos for "lols".

Please provide evidence for your theory.Obviously if someone doesn't want to be caught, he doesn't kill the same alt three times in 10 minutes. Various alts, mixed with real kills, kills on paid victims will do.

Ignoring the continued tin foil conspiracy theory here, you would need to have a sufficient quantity of alts and pay particular care NOT to kill them in any determinable pattern.

Patterns such as the same alts "following" you around the map for example are easily detectable.

If you understand how to read a killboard you would understand how easy it is in practice to "see" the real fights from the frauds.

It is less detectable in large scale block engagements because in these fights individuals become background noise. But in 1v1 and small gang it is quite obvious.

You've yet to provide satisfactory evidence for your assertion. I can therefore only conclude that you are in fact trolling.

"I can call every single "elite PvP" videos and stories fakes, cheats, lies and there is nothing the author can do to disprove it"

So there is nothing anyone can do to disprove your claim, ergo your claim is correct?

I hear this reasoning a lot...I never expected to hear it from an intelligent bunny like you.

While I agree KM do not tell the whole story, as in, how long was the cruiser fighting the T2 ship before the friendlies arrived, how long was the 1 v many occurring before backup arrived etc, they do tell things like "Was the other pilot AFK", as in your KM.

I wouldnt even say AT is proof of pvp, as witnessed a few years back.

But then, you are not after saying anything really, apart from screaming louder and louder that you are right, all other eve players are wrong, oh, and WoW is ---> that way.

If you think the burden of proof is on the guy who talked later, than I accept every existing videos legit and claim every one created after now fake. Now the burden of proof is on them.

The 1v1 and small gang actions are usually happening in a limited land, where the killer lives. Rote Kapelle lives in Syndicate, so even legitimately they can only kill people from around and it's not a big pattern. Pizza mostly kill TEST for example. It's not that hard to get your alts to TEST or set up a fake Syndicate resident corp, right?

But it's largely theoretical as no one bothers to check the killboard for fakes, that's why people used neutral logies in highsec so much that CCP turned them suspect to stop. Despite the victim of such 1v1 screamed in the comments that the enemy had neut logi, no one cared. There is no accepted body that judges kills, therefore no one can declare you elite or fake. Even if a few other skilled ones will suspect that you faked, you'll be widely accepted as elite. So even if we assume that fakes can be captured, to call ANYONE elite, we need a widely accepted judging board who verifies kills. Do you know any?

@Second anonymous: no, if no one can prove anything, no one can prove anything. It's not that I am right, it's that no one is right. No one can be called fake or real, so no one is elite.

Why should I go WoW? Despite I don't know who you are, with 99% chance I'm right saying I have more ISK and more kills/month than you.

If you think the burden of proof is on the guy who talked later, than I accept every existing videos legit and claim every one created after now fake. Now the burden of proof is on them.

That isn't what I said. I said prevailing opinion. The prevailing opinion differs from your opinion. The community accepts (by and large) kill mails which are not obvious alt kills, and accepts that certain players and entities are legitimately skillful at the game. Your assertion that these players and these entities are completely faking it is contrary to this opinion, so I once again, sir, must respectfully ask for your evidence.

The 1v1 and small gang actions are usually happening in a limited land, where the killer lives. Rote Kapelle lives in Syndicate, so even legitimately they can only kill people from around and it's not a big pattern. Pizza mostly kill TEST for example. It's not that hard to get your alts to TEST or set up a fake Syndicate resident corp, right?

Rote may live in syndicate, but Rote does not 1v1, pilots within Rote do, and pilots do not stay in the same place, or even the same corp for their entire careers.

Pilots roam for fights (yes, solo roams are a thing, kil2 was eve famous for it). If one is roaming and staging fights - forgetting that the enormity of the fraud is actually harder then finding fights for real, and forgetting that well known people would need to keep this secret safe (and if as you suggest they are paying people to be slaughtered by them, this would be exceedingly hard to do), a pattern of kills would emerge over a relatively short period of time.

But it's largely theoretical as no one bothers to check the killboard for fakes, that's why people used neutral logies in highsec so much that CCP turned them suspect to stop.

Malarkey. People bother to check killboards for fakes all the time. Serious PvP entities do this as part of their recruitment in order to validate a pilot's ability. Those who are genuinely skilled are under constant scrutiny. In fact, it is common prior to an engagement that killboards are checked and often even a cursory glance at a pilot's history will reveal if their k/d ratio and 100s of billions in kills is faked or not. This kind of activity happens all the time.

Your assertion that CCP had to nerf neutral logi in highsec by making them suspect has in anything whatsoever to do with this is hilarious in the extreme. Neutral logi was nerfed into the ground because it was over powered. Nothing more.

@Second anonymous: no, if no one can prove anything, no one can prove anything. It's not that I am right, it's that no one is right. No one can be called fake or real, so no one is elite.

By that logic we can continue to state that your isk killed achievement is not a valid measure of PvP skill or ranking - because nobody is right, right?

Of course this isn't correct - whilst killboards will not provide under any circumstance a solid rating of a player in pure terms of pure rankings, looking beyond the k/d ratio and isk killed will tell you a great deal about the pilot that you are potentially fighting. Looking at your "impressive" killboard screams "easy meat" to a moderately skilled pilot because it is obvious what it is that you are doing. And that is the point that the "elite pvpers" (well, any pvpers really) are trying to make to you.

"If you think the burden of proof is on the guy who talked later, than I accept every existing videos legit and claim every one created after now fake. Now the burden of proof is on them."

The burden of proof is on the person making the assertion, prevailing opinion or order of speaking don't come into it at all. If I say I killed someone, I need to provide proof that I did - that would be a KM. If I say I killed someone, or several someones, in a particular way then again I need to provide proof that I did - that would be a PvP video. If you then want to say that the kill was faked by me using an alt then you need to provide evidence to support your claim. As an example, you've provided the KMs for your Talos kills to prove that yes, you killed three Taloses in a Cormorant, apparently without outside help. If I say that you've faked those kills then I need to provide proof, which I would do by pointing to this post where you acknowledge they were faked, or to previous posts that mention that Titania Goblin is your alt, or to TEST members who can verify that Titania Goblin is the character you entered into TEST.

My point is you can always say that Player/Corp/Alliance X's kills are faked, but unless you have actual proof to back up your claims they are likely to be disregarded - the player/corp/alliance in question has provided evidence they got those kills in the form of KMs and/or videos, you haven't provided any evidence at all.

"no, if no one can prove anything, no one can prove anything. It's not that I am right, it's that no one is right."

No, in situations where we have no definite proof either way we can apply Occam's razor - "among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct". There are significantly fewer assumptions involved in "These kills are genuine" than "These kills have all/mostly been faked, using techniques that produce no obvious patterns and which nobody - infiltrators, disgruntled ex-corp/alliance members, paid victims etc - has come forward to speak about, purely to give the impression of elite skill without actually having it". Bear in mind that actual evidence supersedes Occam's razor, of course - the razor would suggest that your kills of the Taloses were the result of genuine skill on your part, however we have evidence to prove that this was not the case.

"There is no accepted body that judges kills, therefore no one can declare you elite or fake. Even if a few other skilled ones will suspect that you faked, you'll be widely accepted as elite."

Actually you'll be widely unknown; the majority of the playerbase doesn't care about other players' killboard stats or individual skill. "Elite" isn't some sort of formal title that actually confers anything, it's merely one person's opinion of your abilities. The players who do care about player skill are the ones who are inclined to judge kills and their opinions will be based on those judgements. In particular if a player wants to actually use their killboard stats to get anything - entry into prestigious PvP groups, for example - then you can bet that the group in question will be examining their killboard closely to judge whether their stats are genuine. Likewise if a player is measuring their own success against another player's performance they are likely to perform their own examination of their kills. Incidentally, while doing so you can bet they will take into account players' comments on the kills, such as claiming they used neut logi in hisec engagements.

What he showed here, and previously, is that the 'super elite pvp' guys can, and do, pick off easy targets - just like Gevlon does in highsec, except their efficiency as individuals is far, FAR below that of a single dedicated ganker. He's saying that if they're looking to blow things up, come to highsec! It's full of kills and you can make a bit of ISK on the side, too.

What people keep trying to say is that somehow all the time/effort/efficiency they waste in the search of the occasional 'good fight' makes them so much better, so much more skilled, socially and physically superior somehow. It's classic M&S! Gevlon has a great time ganking for The New Order, getting plenty of kills, making money. He gets everything he wants and says, hey, here's where all the PvP is, and best of all, it's profitable!

While the 'elite' scoff and insult and wander around in deep space in fruitless search of those elusive 'good fights' that are socially constructed as superior.

Retribution was a bit of an eye opener to me. I put a bounty on a self proclaimed top pvp player and get 3-4 bounty notifications ever since every day. He loses 4-5 times as many ships as show up on his killboard stats. So in conclusion even without active manipulation killboard stats don't say much about a pilots performance. They can't because they only show a filtered view from the perspective of people who care about killmails.

@Hivemind: on a generic kill, you are correct. Without further evidence the "Tengu killed PvE fit Naga" is acceptable as legitimate. However I'm directly targeting *elite* PvP kills, ones that are used as proofs as extraordinary skill. Which hypothesis is more likely correct: "guy did something extraordinary that makes him elite" or "guy killed 3 cooperators to fake himself elite".

If there is no body that judges people, the term "elite" is unwarranted for everyone. I mean who has the right to claim himself elite if he can only point random corpies supporting his claim?

@Last Anonymous: this is actually a great idea. Could you send me screenshots?

The only thing that comes to mind is conspiracy theory. Why not postulate that jita market bots are actually CCP messing around and half the miner bots are created to CCP to drive prices (and thus PLEX) prices up? According to your logic, I could say your market experience is fake and obtained by cashing out on a fuckload of PLEX and selling your items to your alts to create the impression of profiteering.

*Keep in mind, this argument is posted while i have a hangover and slept for 3 hours yesterday, so i might not be totally coherent atm.

@Anonymous: creationist are right that there aren't enough evidence behind every aspect of evolution. They fail on the part that they have much-much less and their position is less likely at the first place so need more evidence than evolution. Evolution is not "truth" but the best available *theory*.

I never said it to be truth. I said (as any good scientist) that it works.

But that is beside the point. The point is that you argue against a theory by stating your own as fact although the same fallacies apply, just like the creationist, which have a less solid theory (God, which can't be proven by their own definition) and then change the argumentation around.

Another example:

A) money existsB) money can be faked, therefore all money is fakedA) Your assumption is wrong, real money existsB) Without providing proof real money exists, you are wrong as there is no way to differentiate between perfect fake money and real.

It is not the fact people here have trouble with, but usually that your methodology is faulty and looks twisted. This may be a language barrier issue?

Back to topic: I know a lot of Elite PvPers, which are often frauds and attention seekers. Or Socials, as you say.

There is also another group, which are recognized as elite by others of similar skill. In IT the saying goes that you don't become a hacker by calling so yourself, but when others begin calling you one. In your context, it would create a Web of Trust similar system of PvPers that defines itself and is highly localized. This is different from Internet Elites. Assume for example the top AT winners agreeing that X is a good PvPer. If you trust those AT winners, you may come to agree with them, else not.

In Go for example, similar structures exist, and must be seen in Context of the groups. My teacher for example is considered a very strong player, among others of his skill. By joining and observing that he is still teaching me after 10 years and I in my group keep improving, I agree that his group, to my knowledge, is elite. On the net, though, I frequently kick ass of others calling themselves elite, even though their scientific rating is above mine on that respective server.

And as a rule of thumb: Those shouting loudest are usually the best of targets. Not only are they usually not elite of any kind, but wannabes. It's the silent, humble ones, that are a danger, and therefore listening to.

@hivemind: prevailing opinion does indeed come into it. Once that prevailing opinion is accepted as the norm (either by evidence presented to support its case or that it is considered axiomatic), then any statement contrary to the prevailing (and supported) opinion will require the burden of evidence.

That is not to say one can simply magic a statement out of thin air an then claim it has any evidence to support it... (the prevailing opinion in the new order is that most income is made in highsec by nulsec alts - in my mind this is not supported by evidence), however it is already widely accepted that video evidence of skill and killboard records which are not obviously faked are a solid record of a pilot or group of pilots' ability.

Therefore the statement that it is all faked or elaborate is an extraordinary claim and thus requires evidence to weigh against the prevailing opinion. None of which has been presented here.

Gevlon maybe right about this - everything is faked. However without any form of solid evidence there is no way that he can be sure of this, and certainly no way that he can convince anyone else of it. The prevailing opinion continues to be the best fit with the available evidence.

"Which hypothesis is more likely correct: "guy did something extraordinary that makes him elite" or "guy killed 3 cooperators to fake himself elite"."

Depends on the circumstances. If the guy has a demonstrable track record of above average performance, it's more likely that he found himself in circumstances he could leverage to his advantage - opponents with below-average skills, better knowledge of game mechanics, a ship setup that is a hard counter to his enemies etc - than that he decided to spend a noticeable amount of ISK and risk his reputation (in particular if his cooperators were to reveal him) just for e-rep. On the other hand if someone's entire PvP history is nothing but remarkable encounters or if they normally have sub-par performance and suddenly pull off a remarkable win, fakery is more likely to be correct. Again, occam's razor; the first case only requires us to assume that an above average player had a few things go in his favour to raise his performance to exceptional levels, the second that a player has emerged fully formed as a miraculous PvPer or that a below average player suddenly massively increased in skill.

Given that success in small gang and solo PvP in EVE comes from a combination of player skill and character skills, it's a given that there will be some players who have a very high personal skill level compared to the average player and will have high SP in conjunction with that skill. Given that they have this above average combination and actively seek engagements it's also a given that they will eventually run into an encounter with multiple lower skilled opponents and/or opponents in ships that theirs has a significant advantage against.

“If there is no body that judges people, the term "elite" is unwarranted for everyone. I mean who has the right to claim himself elite if he can only point random corpies supporting his claim?”

“Elite” is assigned by people based on their impression of the person they are assigning the title to, much as you assign M/S to people. If a player claims themselves that they are elite it’s just another assertion which it falls on them to provide the burden of proof for; a player like Kil2 for example can point to feedback he gets on his PvP videos and people recommending watching those same videos to learn PvP tricks. A player can claim that he is elite and point to a long history of faked kills as evidence, but doing so invites scrutiny of his claim and that fakery is likely to be detected. If a player is using alts himself then either the same names will keep cropping up or if he’s recycling them then they’ll be limited in SP and thus ships/fits they can use. If he’s buying characters then odds are someone who watches the character sale forums will notice that these characters get bought, show up on this guys kills and then vanish or get put up for resale. If he’s paying people to let him kill them in one-sided fights then odds are that someone who he paid will come forward - EN24 offer payment for tip offs and articles, for example - or someone that he tries to proposition will say no and go public. Again, occam’s razor suggests that there are far too many things that could go wrong with any of these schemes for their use to be as common as you assert without it ever having been detected.

The burden of proof always lies on the one who does the positive statement (the one that is different from default). The default state is that a cruiser can't kill a battleship. You have to prove if you do otherwise.

Killboard is a proof. Of course it doesn't display offgrid boosters and other neutral faggotry, but it proves that a ship X killed ship Y.

Of course it doesn't display how ship Y was tricked into combat. So you can assume that all those people are noobs, but nobody claim otherwise lol.

And default statement is that nobody kills their alts, because it's too obvious and fricking stupid. And if you claim that those kills are alts of a killer, YOU have to prove that. It's simply enough.

So yeah, killboard whoring and 1337 pvp is essentially tricking other people into combat and using skills/neutrals to take advantage. But those aren't fakes, aren't they.

The prevailing opinion does not matter because it is the prevailing opinion, it matters because it is usually prevailing because it comes with some level of proof or because it survives Occam's razor. It's easier for us to believe that the vast majority of kills are genuine than that they are all faked because we have basic evidence - PvP videos that appear to depict genuine combat, killboards that don't display noticeable trends - and because it makes more sense to us (because it requires a lot less assumptions) that most PvP fighting is between players seeking combat than being between a person who wants to fake PvP skill and their alt. As such, "Genuinely elite PvPers exist" and "Most PvP kills are the result of genuine engagements" become prevailing opinion.

On the other hand, an opinion being widely believed does not give it any sort of immunity to meeting the burden of proof made by its assertions. History is rife with examples where things were once believed near-universally, at least within specific cultures, which have now been proved demonstrably false. For example, at one point it was believed that poor hygiene would actually ward off disease, whereas we now know it is the opposite. The facts don't change purely because lots of people believe they should.

I was on an alliance roam in Syndicate and was hot dropped by Rooks & Kings -two triage carriers and about four times our numbers in support ships. We knew it was coming (had seen their neutral scouts) and we'd been hot dropped by them before, so when it happened we were able to disengage with minor losses. One of the guys on Team speak said "I wonder if they'll put us in their next video" to which I responded "No, because it would just look like a blob ganking a smaller fleet". Don't get me wrong. I think R&Ks are excellent PVPers, but they get all of that green on their killboards from being risk adverse. The only fights that make it to YouTube are the close calls -or the fights that look close...