Is this supposed to be a big surprise? Marines are used to getting shit on by DoD, politicians and brass from other services, shrugging it off and having to do with second hand hand me downs, and doing their job better than any other branch of the military.

Is this supposed to be a big surprise? Marines are used to getting shit on by DoD, politicians and brass from other services, shrugging it off and having to do with second hand hand me downs, and doing their job better than any other branch of the military.

The Corps may be making more noise about this, but the other services aren't happy, either.

DADT surveys went out to every member of the Armed Forces, Coasties included, and spouses, if applicable.

I mostly disagree with these first few comments. This change in law happened with the approval of elected officials, and thus democratically.m It didn't happen by authoritarian judicial fiat. That's all we can ask for.

Further, repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell is one of these nutty symbolic things the left gets fixated on. Things are not going to change much. It's not like there are very many gay men who want to join the Marines.

One of my son's 4 roommates at college, came out afterward, saying he was gay.

Well, he didn't date in college. And, he's one of the sweetest men I know.

Just because a kid is gay is no indication that he is dangerous. And, about to hump heterosexual guys. For guys, however, what's notable, is that they don't hump girls.

If you look at Israel, which depends on its survival on DRAFTING all 18 year old's ... what you get is a tough army. Unwilling to shoot "willy and nilly." And, in Israel, even the women can shoot a rifle. WIN-WIN.

If you remember Rock Hudson, gay as a 3-dollar-bill ... You'd notice hollywood had no trouble putting him in uniform. And, then placing the camera at his back. And, making sure they captured his behind. As he walked. Doris Day sang.

I can't remember the specifics (maybe AllenS or another Vet knows), but during the enlistment process (which generally takes months for each individual) there are a few "drop-dead" sort of barriers. Like "are you a conscientious objector", but a bit more specific. Doesn't mean you won't get in, means you won't be considered for certain roles. A question like "Would you be able to maintain professional composure while sleeping under a shelter- half with a homosexual of the same sex?" might be a reasonable question to ask prospective enlistees. As for the Marines and other servicemembers who are already in...HA! Not a chance in hell you'll get out of your enlistment contract. Nice try by the SGT, though.

Now that gays are allowed to be openly gay in the military, it follows that morale will decline, re-enlistments and recruiting will suffer, and the the draft will become a consideration to maintain troop levels.

It also follows that the military will begin to make special provisions creating a logistical and judicial nightmare.

Nothing that you people are saying follows in any way. If this decision turns out to affect morale, enlistment, etc. negatively, then the decision will be rescinded. There's simply no reason to believe that allowing gays to serve openly in the military will lead to a draft.

Seven Machos said... I mostly disagree with these first few comments. This change in law happened with the approval of elected officials, and thus democratically.m It didn't happen by authoritarian judicial fiat. That's all we can ask for.

Further, repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell is one of these nutty symbolic things the left gets fixated on. Things are not going to change much. It's not like there are very many gay men who want to join the Marines.

I made the point months ago that this was a case of force effectiveness versus personal freedom. The increased number of gays wanting to join will be dwarfed by the number of hetro's finding the environment is not what they signed up for.

further there is no way that unit morale and espirit is increased now, so we're going to have fewer volunteers and a lower morale. But several gays will get to come out of the closet and sue for descrimination.

They already have a big gay education program in place for lawyers, Chaplains, other officers, NCO's and soon troops. Next will be promotion quotas

Women are better shots then men, on average. It's about the only "military" sort of skill that goes that way though. In any case, I wanted to point out, just to be fair and not to disrespect the Israeli military in any way, and there is a whole lot to be said for women having the mindset and expectation that they *will* serve... but I wanted to point out that the Israeli Army does not DEPLOY. It matters.

But several gays will get to come out of the closet and sue for descrimination

Please list for us the litany of previous lawsuits where the United States has been successfully sued because of discrimination in the military. In fact, please list for us any sampling of lawsuits where the United States has been sued in any capacity naming the military as a defendant.

We had gay airborne qualified guys in my unit. We also had pretty much 'out' lesbians. We some how survived, because the criteria was as long as they weren't a fuck up, theres no problem, just like with any other soldier.

If you can't hack serving with openly gay fellow Americans, maybe you aren't really cut out for uniform, because we ALL put up with stupid offensive shit everyday while serving.

This isn't a matter of whats 'offensive' or not. We who serve don't make that call.

All who serve need to suck it up, shut their cakeholes and drive on.

What are we, a bunch of PC pansies that wilt when the CoC makes a decision we don't like? "ooh theres a gay guy next to me! waaaah Sergeant!" My God troop, grow a pair.

"It also follows that the military will begin to make special provisions creating a logistical and judicial nightmare."

We'll see what happens. It could be entirely low-key and everyone more or less goes on as they ever did, pretending that the guys who are gay aren't. Or it could go the other way, likely enough with interference from Congress, so that special provisions will require an official declaration of one's orientation and thereafter determine (as being female does now) a limit on what the gay person is allowed to do or where they are allowed to serve so that they only do so where there are appropriate facilities and accommodations.

Drill Sgt, really? I'm surprised by the better Helo pilot part. I wonder why women would be better at that? Maybe you're right about shooting, but I'd always heard that teen girls, in particular, tended to be good shots, but there may be enough self-selection bias there to explain it.

Does your Colonel's wife want to shoot? Even a pistol gets heavy pretty darn quick. I'm a good shot... for the first, oh, 10 rounds. ;-)

7M, My prediction is that if there seems to be a morale problem, then the first response will be to add a training module on the subject. Given the struggle that began with DADT (as a compromise) up through its repeal, I cannot see the DoD unilaterally rescinding the new policy.

I agree that this does not mean a draft will be imposed. The 24% unemployment rate among teens makes that unnecessary.

jeeze, guys...how many times must it be stated that there are gay men and women serving honorably at this very moment, there have been for as long as there has been an american military, and other soldiers have always been aware of that fact. all of this armegeddon! rhetoric is just plain silly. gates' response to the worried sargeant was spot-on.

7M, My prediction is that if there seems to be a morale problem, then the first response will be to add a training module on the subject. Given the struggle that began with DADT (as a compromise) up through its repeal, I cannot see the DoD unilaterally rescinding the new policy.

I agree that this does not mean a draft will be imposed. The 24% unemployment rate among teens makes that unnecessary.

We've also got a War on Terror and a whatever-it-is in Libya going on. Most young people today don't have the discipline and motivation to make it in the military. Without the children of the bitter clingers, the country could be up the creek.

No it wasn't "bizarre even to ask" when you consider that the Marine Commandant James Amos is adamantly opposed to the repeal of DADT. It simply means that many Marines share the stance of their Commandant.

The new commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. James Amos, on Tuesday defended his decision to recommend against repealing "don't ask, don't tell" in Dec. 3 congressional testimony – a position at odds with Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen.

In a roundtable discussion with reporters, Amos said that a Pentagon report on the impact of repealing "don't ask, don't tell" “sent a very strong message” that marines were against repealing the ban. Though the report recommended repealing "don't ask, don't tell," it also found that nearly 60 percent of combat troops said that a repeal could have negative effects on the force.

“I take that very, very seriously,” Amos said, adding he worried that openly gay troops in Marine Corps combat units would pull focus away from fighting.

“I don’t want to lose any marines to the distraction,” he said. “I don’t want any marines that I’m visiting at Bethesda [National Naval Medical Center military hospital in Maryland] with no legs be the result of any type of distraction.”

Surveys in the Pentagon report showed that the majority of troops believed a change in the law would have a positive or no impact on US military effectiveness. Mullen and Secretary Gates cited these findings in recommending a repeal.

Apropo, a quote from "Starship Troopers" that I love, and that I suspect also supports my (and Fen's) feelings about women is real close combat:

"Besides the obvious fact that drop and retrieval require the best pilots (i.e. female), there is a very strong reason why female Naval officers are assigned to transports: it's good for trooper morale. In a mixed ship, the last thing a trooper hears before a drop (maybe the last word he ever hears) is a woman's voice, wishing him luck. If you don't this is important, you've probably resigned from the human race."

This is mostly BS. Silly folks aren't lined up to join the Marines and never have been. It is notable, however, that a largely ideological side trip involving 2% of the population gets this level of attention by our execrable political class, the worst we've ever had. Don't worry, nothing done under this banner is permanent. The snap-back against this will be wide ranging and rather unpleasant but inevitable.

jeeze, guys...how many times must it be stated that there are gay men and women serving honorably at this very moment, there have been for as long as there has been an american military, and other soldiers have always been aware of that fact. all of this armegeddon! rhetoric is just plain silly. gates' response to the worried sargeant was spot-on.

Everyone who has served was aware of gays but they kept a low profile and did their jobs. What concerns me is the possibility of activists trying to provoke a confrontation, like a gay bar on the post or something like that.

@The Drill SGT:"I flat don't believe that. I've trained women to shoot and trained men. The men are better...."Google Marine Staff Sergeant Julia Watson and Sergeant Sherri Gallagher. Both were/are National High Power Rifle champions. Gallagher set a national record last year that likely won't be beat any time soon.

If you're an unreformed hippie who thought Candidate Obama was pretty, if you're a politically correct law professor coddled by tenure in a far-left province, if you have no more idea than a child of what Marines go through to become Marines -- then yes, the question probably would seem bizarre.

My observation, and I think I also read it somewhere that women make better pilots due to a superior ability to multi-task, which is the main skill in piloting aircraft. I think men have superior spatial ability. Then you need to figure that men take more risks which is bad for piloting, but maybe good for air combat.

In the end, individual differences probably are much more substantial than anything that can be expected by gender.

Right now Obama and our political class have one active shooting war on their hands, another engagement where we have troops deployed, and a third where troops aren't deployed but that seems to be the next step. And the think this is an absolutely ideal time to use the US military for a grand social science experiment.

Perhaps they're right. For the sake of the country I hope they're right. But the downside risk is so huge that only the sublimely stupid would have undertaken it.

Ah, the only reason "candidate" Obama won, was that he had the better PR. The better signs. And, McCain did NOT have women voters, or enough voters who would never vote for a black person, all sewn up.

The idiocy belongs to the GOP. Most of those responsible for electing the GOP ticket ... thought they'd pick McCain "because he could attract independent voters." AND. HE. DID. NOT!

You lose when you push the GOP into picking "electable candidates." Instead of candidates whom you really like.

Third Coast said... Gallagher set a national record last year that likely won't be beat any time soon.

I looked, they are good, but her record may not stand for too long, considering she beat the 2nd place guy by 1 point. Interestingly, she had a lot more bulls but apparently was less consistent. Don't know what that means... nerves?

SGT Sherri Gallagher of Fort Benning, Georgia, shot her way to her first National High Power Rifle Championship on Friday, finishing with a record breaking 2396-161x.

Carl Bernosky, of Ashland, Pennsylvania, finished second this year with a 2395-140x

"Most young people today don't have the discipline and motivation to make it in the military."

That's what basic training is for. ;-)

Gah. I've got friends who are sending their son to military school (he wants to go) and his dad thinks he knows something because his dad was in the military. I just want to shake the guy and tell him to shut up. The only people who should be telling this kid what he needs to do to go on there is whoever is in charge of the "military" training. The fewer expectations of any sort the better.

Same with basic. Be in the best physical shape you can be and it will suck less, but the less you bring with you the better.

I expect that gays in the military will be a big nothing soon. There will be stupid fights over details, but overall they will serve us well, and the straights will deal with it fine. In the end it will mean nothing. The problems from gay marriage, if adopted, will be far more messy.

Men are taller than women. Ok, you can find a pair, this woman and than man, where the woman is taller. The average height for men is taller than the average height for women. In fact, I'll bet that for most random groups of equal numbers of men and women, if we sort each group from tallest to shortest, and match the tallest male with the tallest female, and so on, the male will be taller in the vast majority of cases. (Ok, the womens basketball team might be pairwise taller than the mens wrestling team. But random was a condition. Those are not two random groups.)

Did you know there are world class Olympic female runners? They are probably faster than 99.5% of the men in the World. But in general, men are faster. Just like men are taller.

Third Coast said...

@The Drill SGT: "I flat don't believe that. I've trained women to shoot and trained men. The men are better...." Google Marine Staff Sergeant Julia Watson and Sergeant Sherri Gallagher. Both were/are National High Power Rifle champions. Gallagher set a national record last year that likely won't be beat any time soon.

What Drill SGT said could be re-written to be something like "in general, men are better shots than women." Sort of like men are taller and run faster. Only we shouldn't need to jazz up this statement with all sorts of conditionals.

I never served in the military, and it's the greatest regret of my life. I wish I could serve now at 52. I think there are a lot us.

If recruitment gets to be a problem raise the age restriction. Older people could do a lot of the work that we waste strong young people on: desk work, transport, logistics, pilots. Hell, I'd even rather be used for cannon fodder than some young person with their whole life ahead of them.

@The Drill SGT"Interestingly, she had a lot more bulls but apparently was less consistent. Don't know what that means... nerves?"She actually had a higher X count. The X ring is contained within the 10 ring and both count as 10 points. The X's are used as tie breakers. She shot a total of 240 rounds from the offhand (standing), sitting and prone positions and lost only 4 points out of 2400 possible.

Gay pride parades....are you trying to tell me that most (male) homosexuals don't dress up like Judy Garland and belt out show tunes while wearing women's underwear on the outside of their dresses?As someone who is not a big fan of the gay rights movement, I have to say that the gay rights movement is my biggest allie.

Someone probably already mentioned this but I am sure that any Marines who decide not to reenlist will be replaced by the thousands upon thousands of gays who can't wait to take their places. I hear the recruiting centers are overwhelmed with them already.

I think that we all understood that we weren't talking about the ability of an exceptional person but about generalities and averages. That an olympic class female athlete might out perform the majority of men is irrelevant. Men are stronger, faster, taller, built differently... and the average man can outperform a woman *easily*. Men have more muscle without even trying and a different center of balance.

And in the end I don't have any idea if women are better shots or better pilots or if it's simply that women who exert themselves to chose those things are better at them than guys who feel like they ought to be good at them on account of being male.

Sort of like how being a terrible cook reflects more badly on a woman than on a man, and men who do cook tend to be exceptional at it, while the ones who don't cook don't get averaged in to any "men are better cooks than women" figuring. Fewer women get away with not cooking at all, so you're likely to run into more of them that aren't very good at it.

TWM, I realize you are being sarcastic, but to show the validity of your remaark.....look at the Iraq/Afghanisan deaths for US soldiers. San Francisco has a population of 805,000. They have had virtually no casualties.

There are small towns or rural counties that have had far too many loses. Including Pierce County.

Synova:And in the end I don't have any idea if women are better shots or better pilots or if it's simply that women who exert themselves to chose those things are better at them than guys who feel like they ought to be good at them on account of being male.

That statement is far more sensible without gender references: A person who wants something and is willing to work for it, if they have some talent, can outshine another who has more talent, but feels entitled, and doesn't work to develop their talent. And yes, some groups are naturally better at some activities than other groups. The NBA is dominated by Blacks, and US soccer is dominated by Whites. There are both physiological reasons and social reasons for this. Men probably dominate shooting because they don't mind playing with dangerous weapons that make loud noises as much as women do.

We see this in athletics all the time: an athlete with greater work ethic can outperform one with greater talent. Although, there are times, that person with the talent brings magic to the contest and wins.

Chuck66: A lot of rear-echelon work has been outsourced to contractors. That way the administration and military can say "See, we only have so many soldiers." But those contractors also need to be feed and supplied and protected. Given the nature of the beast, as someone pointed out, there really isn't a rear-echelon. Heck you could be shot in Fort Hood. How much more rear-echelon can you get than that?

One of the companies in my battalion is down in Dwyer. I wonder if the questioner was from them.

Regardless, I can pretty much guarantee that commanders are pissed that this idiot asked this question. No one wants to be that guy whose Marines ask stupid questions. That Marine's life will be miserable fora while.

The big thing driving many away will be the "screw your religious beliefs, you MUST say that you support this" training that the officers and NCOs are *currently* getting. I saw some very upset looking junior officers not too long ago. Thank God I'm already retired, because it'd be very tempting to tell the commander where he could shove it (so to speak).

The big thing driving many away will be the "screw your religious beliefs, you MUST say that you support this" training that the officers and NCOs are *currently* getting. I saw some very upset looking junior officers not too long ago.

sarge here sarge wuz a gun clubber durng sarge youf an said club was wuz near alwayz dominated by yung womens - sarge admits embarrassing to be outshot by sarges own sister but thar sarge got tough frm the shame thus worked harder than the sarges sis an prevailed in the end but sarge did not work harder than the perennial club champ girl - of corse the club champs dad run the club an had a range fer the club champ in the club champs basement an unfair advantge

sarge here if yer supost to be able carry full battle load prevail againts all danger an discomfort to kill thar enemy wivout mercy an yar cant fend off a unwanted advance or yar get all crunchy cuz ya think somebdys peerin at yer short arm in the shower yer too much a mess fer the service anyhoo

ps tito mixed them womens an mens troops in combat units an them co-mingled killers made widows of a near a million axis wives-sarge thinks its all in what yer fightin for sarge wud not think twice bein ina combat unit wiv womens in any war of national liberation...resource wars not sew much

And for those claiming women shoot better or are better pilots than men, you're either on drugs or there is some other reason you're talking about something you know nothing about.

Shooting a gun is pretty easy. Guns are designed to be very simple to use and require very little training, which is why they are used by every military in the world. You hold a rifle securely and you look down sights, and you pull a trigger. There is nothing masculine or feminine about the skills required. Their main advantage is that guns make even weak women as strong as the strongest men. A 12 year old girl can kill a 25 year old golden gloves champion without hardly trying.

It's just about the same for piloting an aircraft, though I have no personal experience with that particular skill set.

There is no evidence that women are better at shooting or piloting, such claims come from ignorant people, or people with political agendas.

But in both cases, it's not the particular skill set that is the key element desired. For the infantryman with the rifle, shooting and aiming and hitting a target is extremely important, but also important is the strength to fight, the mind set to fight, and the ability endure pain and keep fighting.

"There is no evidence that women are better at shooting or piloting, such claims come from ignorant people, or people with political agendas."

Ignorant, maybe, but no political agenda. I doubt anyone did a study with control groups and what-not to see if there is any sort of correlation between sex and shooting ability. Just anecdotal sorts of "teen-aged girls are often good shots" remarks. It might not be *true* but it's not any more obviously ridiculous than any other physical claim. Girls and boys *are* different. Maybe it's only that teen-aged girls have more fine motor control than teen-aged boys and the advantage goes away. Maybe they have less attitude or less ego wrapped up in the process, and the advantage goes away.

That said... You're completely right about the advantage of guns over any other weapon. And even if there isn't some female advantage, but merely parity, I never suggested that every single other part of the equation wasn't in favor of the male. It is. The mental elements might not *have* to be, but in our culture I'll give those to men as well.

As pilots, women are surprisingly good at something they probably spent 1/100 the time imagining as the average boy. There is something to it. They seem to excel at cockpit management - keeping all the plates spinning. I'm not talking combat flying, just recreational/commercial. I fly, and I know women pilots. Of course, women pilots are exceptional women to begin with.

Women are noted for having fine-motor skills better than men. When Cray built his first supercomputer, he needed women to help assemble the delicate boards. Occasionally a woman in the area would have a black car come and pick her up, and take her to the airport. An government aircraft would take her somewhere to fix something. They were all sworn to secrecy about what they did. The first supercomputer is now in a museum in Chippewa Falls, WI.

Longbows require extensive training and practice. Have you ever used one? They require strength and coordination. Yeomen were required to spend every Sunday afternoon practicing in the church yard. The reason the English use two fingers to salute instead of the American middle finger comes from the long bow. The French would catch the English longbowmen, and instead of killing them they would cut off the index finger of the hand that pulled the string on the bow. So the English would show that they had both fingers, the index and the middle fingers.

Guns are much easier to use, and to be trained to use. Point it that way, cock it, take off the safety and pull the trigger. To be a marksman takes work. The Kalishnikov is easy to maintain and operate. Accuracy of the inexperienced is made up for by the rate of fire.

Men are superior to women in upper body strength. Most shooting is going to be more demanding of upper body strength. Men have bigger shoulders than women, in general, while women have bigger hips, in general. There simply are some things men like more than women, and that women like more than men. Things that make loud noises would qualify in the men tend to like more than women.

All I meant is that I'm not a pilot. But some things are pretty evident without the personal experience. I was in an A-6E and F/A-18 squadron for years and I do have some second hand experience from all the pilots and bombadiers I was with.

Of course, women pilots are exceptional women to begin withThis is the crux of the matter. The proportion of women who want to fly or shoot is much smaller than that of men. The ones with little talent for it never try it.

"There are small towns or rural counties that have had far too many loses. Including Pierce County."

Well... does that statistic take into account only those service members whose "home town" was here before they did a tour of duty at Ft Lewis or McChord, or is it based on their current official residency? Because I know quite a few people who came through here and ended up coming back when they got out, so it wouldn't surprise me to discover that lots of folks change their official residence shortly after arriving. (No surprise, Paradise is also located just a few short miles away...)

I'd heard that women really are better shots, on average, than men tend to be. I don't have proof, only a few anecdotes, so I'm not going to insist on it.

I know from my yearly trips out to the rifle range (Marine) that women tend to score higher than a majority of men.

One reason is that women are unlikely to have hunting/shooting experience, so they don't come in with poor form and bad habits. The hardest thing to "unlearn" is wrong muscle memory you picked up before you enlisted. In boot camp, alot of guys who think they will score high have trouble on the range because they've been doing it wrong all their lives.

Another reason is the type of woman that self-selects to become a Marine. She already knows she has to push harder than the males. Biologically, she has more body fat, less hemoglobin, less bone density. She is not average and she is not competing against average males. 90% of the guys in victor units are in peak physical condition, operating at as close to 100% effeciency as is possible considering conditions. She has to be better than them just to keep up.

Saddest thing I ever saw was during NCO School. Marines from all over the fleet, mostly from non-combat MOS's. We were paired off in two's for a landnav course. Since I was from a combat unit and looked like I knew what I was doing, I was paired with a female.

It wasn't an easy course, and was even worse for those with little field experience. It lasted all day and we were one of the few teams that finished in time. Along the way, I learned about her brother, about why she signed up, about how joining the Corps had been her dream.

Around mid-afternoon she pulled up lame. We would learn later that she had worn her body out - multiple stress fractures in both legs. She hobbled for the rest of the day. In pain that would have most men curled up in the fetal position. I asked to carry her pack (never her M16) but she refused. I moved us from point to point, with growing respect that she would endure so much pain. For her, it was all about the principle. She didn't cry, but there were tears in her eyes. That must have been another one.

I didn't think we were going to make it. I didn't care if I failed this part of the school. I was an LAV-25 gunner. I could locate a pos to a 6 digit grid while moving 60mph at night. But it was against her nature to give up. Thats probably how she made it though boot camp. We crawled across the finish point with about 30 mins to spare.

The sad part. Due to injuries sustained on the course, she was forced out of the Marine Corps on a medical discharge.

I hope life has been good to her since then. I hope I run into her one day. I need to tell her that people like her are the reason we fight.

As an old col blimp type, I honestly dont see the problem with gays in the military--they have always been there--the UCMJ is perfectly adequate to deal with those whose behavior is inappropriate either homo or heterosexual.

Drill: I loved this: "PS: The only way my Colonel wife could hurt somebody with her 9mm is to throw it at him." I never qualified with my 45. couldnt hit a bull in the ass with the 45 so wore it in a sholder holster figuring it would give me a bit of extra body armor.

It's true that Gates can prevent armed forces members from leaving prior to their term of commitment on the basis of don't ask don't tell repeal, but the true impact of the policy will be as the terms for enlistment expire and we get a look at the re-enlistment rates in this Brave New World of gay sexual subordination that will make the Catholic Church scandals look like a molehill.

In my opinion, the best cockpit crew includes both males and females. Women are more likely to be detail oriented and follow checklists to the letter. However, they are also more likely to freeze during an emergency. Men are more likely to do something in an emergency, even if it is not on the checklist. Think of Capt. Sully and his Hudson River landing.

Jim Howard said "Whatever one's personal feelings about this or any other decision from the National Command Authority, unless the order is illegal you have to obey it, and you can't quit!"

Actually you CAN quit, just not immediately. Many will. It's going to seriously hurt retention. for every happy now-openly-gay GI, there will be several others leaving. A lot of needed experience out the door.

Alex says "Good riddance?" If retention craters, he may rue those words. Or is enforcing the agenda that much more important than our security.