OOC: Ralph, you might want to edit in an OOC somewhere in that laundry list... and in the meantime, please don't descend to name-calling. It makes you "sound" juvenile. I appreciate your arguments in favor of having immigration laws, mind you. They don't address illegal immigration except indirectly, but they're wonderful for what they are.

The wall won't stop illegal immigration? Pity, then, that CNN, the AP and others have plainly stated that it will, thus helping it to pass. Talk about buyer's regrets...

I personally favored the House bill for Immigration Reform, rather than the Safe Fence Initiative Bush signed into law the other day. Not only did it increase penalties for illegal immigrants, yet allow for guest workers (I know, you feel that there's no such thing, but for the sake of argument), it even included funding.

That's right: Bush just signed an unfunded initiative into law. He's going to leave the tax increases to whoever follows him. Assuming it doesn't pull a Great Four Walls of China and lose funding partway through, it'll be interesting to see our own Berlin Wall going up. Not good, but still interesting.

Remember: A wall doesn't just keep things out.

"Well, I knew that this wall was the result of a very bad situation. They didn't do it because they were fun minded or something like that. They did it as a necessity and I thought, what kind of system is it that can only exist by keeping them with force in their own bailiwick and the wall was the actual symbol of a defeat, of inferiority and I thought, all right, they have it and let's call it an improvisation that's only going to last as long as you had these economic short-comings and perhaps it gives you a chance here, gives the government a chance to catch up and produce enough for its people to be satisfied too and to eliminate the necessity for the wall."--Stefan Heym

"But we can't allow humans to immigrate into Antillia; they'd cause an influx of cheap labor and drive our farmers out of business!"

You refer to illegal immigration, then use an argument that implies there is no difference between legal entry and illegal entry.

Do you wish to debate those who seek to obtain lawful entry.... or those who sneak in under cover of night? Decide now, because it is more than the letters "IL" that separate the two.

Even the scriptures state that he who does not enter by the gate, the same is a THIEF. Persons who seek to enter Antillia contrary to the laws and in evasion of law enforcement--- outside of being suicidal-- are self-evidently up to no good. A person who breaks the law <I>has demonstrated that he holds the laws of the land he enters in contempt, and has proven himself to be untrustworthy.</i>

To equate lawful immigrants with trespassers is unethical, and an insult to those who come in by the front door.

As to allowing lawful immigrants of other races into Antillia-- should we choose the Free Trade route....

This is a much harder question than it would appear on the surface. It requires asking a question yet unanswered: is Antillia, the seven villages, the territory of a nation.... or the territory of a race?

"What was that popping noise ?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert

Especially considering you insist on repeating the same proven errors over and over again.

OOC: Ralph, if you can't be bothered to respect the thread rules, then let's take this to private e-mail. Then you can relax that restraint you're exhibiting. <sarcasm> I'd hate to give you an ulcer from all that repressed anger and disgust at actually having to talk to me in print.</sarcasm>

Now, if you can apply some of that "amazing restraint" you're so plainly demonstrating, I'd appreciate you actually reading my response and telling me where I'm wrong. Did Bush actually mandate funding for the wall? Were the articles of CNN and AP not filled with phrases like "stem illegal immigration" and "control our border"? Are walls only solid in one direction? Were either the Berlin Wall or the Great Wall of China successful in their aim?

Something more informative than, "You're wrong to inifinity, so there" is requested, Mr. Hayes. Pray rise to the occasion.

I am foolish, though: I refuse to believe that presenting you with facts is an error, no matter how often you tell me.

<under his breath> Urh... This is sounding like those human meetings that Longscript fellow mentioned. </uhb>

Yes, the most recent point covered was fortifications and the Mistwall, but that's what led us off-topic. The topic is the relative merits of the Expansionist and Free Trade positions. Which means we should confine ourselves to those two subjects.

The fact is, they are not mutually exclusive, nor are we required to implement either of them. I fail to see how this is an either/or situation, although from some things I've heard there are people who wish it to be so.

If we can return to the topic... s, I will organize my thoughts and offer my opinions on both.

<from the back of the room> Yeah, you do that, sonny. We'll find you a high chair. </ftbotr>

The esteemed Mr McClaw brings up an excellent point. Increasing trade with the outside world does not necessarily require us giving up the Mistwall, or even our secrecy. As I've mentionned before, we could easily set up secret trading missions using a combination of golems and illusions to make human merchants they're trading with other humans...

(shakes head) an intriguing, if not tempting suggestion. But I am brought to mind of my grandchildren--- they make a game of following bees in the meadow back to their hive. It takes them time.... and keeps them out of our fur on long summer afternoons ((laughter))... but their love of sweets spurs them on.

There are few, if any, un-plundered beehives within a day's walk of our summer cottage.

As a plan, scattered trade is better, at least, than dropping the mistwall or laying a road through the swamp into our capital. But not by much.

"What was that popping noise ?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert

the trading of magical goods will put magical goods into the economy
the existance of magical goods will eventually attract the attention of those who practice magic, aka human wizards.

conversely, the expansion of the mist wall will not go unnoticed and is likely to be investigated.
from such it would only be a matter of time before we were discovered to be living behind the mist wall and blamed for it's expansion (whether they have the evidence to prove it or not we'll likely get blamed for it anyway)
and that too will eventually reach the ears of human wizards.
but it will also cause the aggrivation of those countries who'se lands were lost.

both propositions run afowl of the potential of human wizards and likely will run into the ire of neighboring territories (change in economy is not always accepted willingly or gladly)

I believe that the first line of defence is better knowledge of our neighbors. find out who is thirsting for those kind of goods and who would be willing to actually defend us to keep the trade going. that would be a truely usefull ally. I believe that making a border of some kind around the inside borders of the dire swamp, even if it were made of mud and wooden stakes, would be better defence then what we currently have.

the shadows, although good for hiding, do little to defend against a weapon once it's found it's target.

perhaps the first step would be to definately decide that something should be done, then set aside funds now, before we choose what to do exactly. that way, we could put the money into an account and it could gain in usury, also we wouldn't ask for nearly as much as any plan would cost, that way, later we could deduct the money set aside from the estimated price. this would look like the plan, whatever it is, is actually cheaper then it really is. and if it looks cheaper, it'll be easier to get more higher up fuss buckets to agree to fund it.

Indeed. And as all this talk of Ennias Longscript brings back to mind, the Mistwall is not even safe as it is now. It is only a matter of time until someone else slips through, perhaps someone without the scruples of a cleric, or worse. Perhaps it won't happen in our lifetimes, our childrens, or ten thousand years hence. Yet every day is another roll of the dice, and it could just as easily be tomorrow.

I don't mean to advocate panic, but we are rather vulnerable and are simply hiding it. Now is the time to begin building true defences, while our economy and patience can handle it. To wait until we are forced to do so places us at grave risk, with an ultimately inferior result - an outcome that could be tantamount to extinction.

And yes, I do say extinction. Before, where guerilla tactics and clever ploys have saved us, there is no guarantee that the next attempt to invade will make a stupid mistake or even care about occupations. Our eyes have not been completely blind in centuries past, and we know that others are capable of merciless barbaric butchery designed with the sole purpose of elimination. Guerilla tactics are nigh useless against such a foe: they sweep through their targets like wildfire and destroy everything and everyone in sheer malice. At best, such tactics can delay them for a time, but they are no replacement for a well-trained and equipped army, with defensive positions.

And there is more, as well. Such defences could make us valuable as allies among our neighbors. When we can become an active defender with such unique abilities, we will likely have no shortage of offers of alliance or even allegiance. No longer would we have to hide. No longer would we live in fear of discovery. No longer would we be hunted as if prey.

It will be costly. It will take time. But truely, if we are to make secure our future, we must take it upon ourselves to secure our lands.

Sir Ralph has made an excellent point with the story about the plundered beehives, which had not occurred to me. If we were to establish trading posts with no obvious connection to Antillia, we would have to make very sure that the movements between here and there could not be tracked. I'm sure we can better cover our tracks than the bees. Whether we can do so well enough, that's something we would have to be very sure about. (This makes my previous idea about powering the trading post by spooling out a ley line to them sound like ... an extremely bad idea. Really bad idea.)

A more intractable problem is the one Shyal brought up -- We really do not want to attract the attention of human wizards to the fact that we have lux workers and powerful sources of lux. We've been making the assumption that what we have to trade is lux-using items. Perhaps we can profitably trade something else? Perhaps there are useful things that can be made with lux-based tools, but which do not themselves use lux?

Certainly, defense of Antillia is primary. I don't believe, though, that a defense composed of the sorts of tactics that potential attackers would be familiar with would be the most effective. We have a technology that they lack. I think a strategy of technology -- a technology unknown to most of our potential adversaries -- would be the most effective use of our efforts.

I'd like to hear from the artificers guilds about how much the output of the luxfont can be increased at what cost, how much it would cost to store vast quantities of lux in storage cells, built up over time from excess luxfont output, and what sorts of weapon systems could be devised based on having immediate access to very large bursts of lux.

That impressive young Questor managed to put together a field-expedient lux cell of significant capacity from scrounged materials. It would be interesting to see what experts working in a proper laboratory could do along those lines.

The advantage of this approach, it seems to me, is that a large increase in lux can be used for civilian purposes pending any (Yeshua forbid!) military needs.

that is interresting, the idea of trading non-lux goods never occurred to me. personally I believe that we should focus on constructing a wall more then we should on building an army. mostly because a wall can stand for years at minimum cost, an army must be trained, kept within top form, fed, and given assignments to keep the men from being too bored (idle hands and all that).

what should first be done I believe is figure out every worst case scenario for whatever plan is adopted, and either prepare for it, or predict how it would occur and make preperations to prevent it.

I believe that we should have a greater knowledge in this area. we need someone or something to find enough information so we can predict what is likely to happen so we can prevent all we wish to avoid.

(As a free trader):
Yes, we have developed many non-lux inventions in our time in isolation. The printing press and the self-cleaning chamber pot are just two examples. It is unlikely that the humans have such novelties, and trade in them would give us an advantage without overly risking the realization that we still survive.

Mr. VanPelt, it was not my intention to say that we should not use Lux weapons in the defences I propose. Quite the contrary: we should use them as our first, best defence, taking advantage of the buildup to develop new ones to complement our armaments, in number, power, and scale. Physical weapons should be included, but as backups. We cannot, after all, assume that we will never be attacked by similar weapons, although it is rather unlikely.

I would like to see any new defences built with ley-lines spooled to them, naturally through site-selection, or artificially if need be. Each should have a reserve, but we should first and foremost armor Sanctuary city and allow it to be the heart that drives the other outposts, allowing us to dynamically locate our power where it is needed most. Luftship docking towers, above the range of most weapons, would serve as resupply lifelines, making seiges difficult or impossible. Multiple, hidden escape routes would provide similar possibilities in a back-up sense. But the real power of the defensive posts would be newly designed and crafted lux weapons located on the battlements, tied directly to the ley-lines. Well-stocked armories and public training sessions would turn the populace into an instant millitia in the event of an invasion. There are hundreds of facets I could name, but in short these would be all-purpose defensive structures capable of sheltering and protecting our citizens in times of peril, both natural and foreign.