tonyp wrote:I just wonder - on the basis of long Sydney experience - whether a bus is actually full if you can see daylight through the back half of the bus, or whether it's just claimed to be full. The standees in that photo look rather spread out.

Trust me, it was filled, front to rear, including the cave at thre back, you often criticise for not being occupied by standees! That is one props I will grant the students over others.

Seems somebody has a problem with university students 'highjacking' what they perceive as 'their' service. It is a public service, there are no restrictions on who can board, so they are within their rights. Like most people, they are probably not transport cranks and merely seeking to get to their destination in the way they see as the most efficient.

That depends on the standard of measurement used and which of those standards TfNSW has decided to quote. It might be 4, 6 or 8 ppsm. The point I'm making is that a tram has no restrictions on how many can be loaded on board unlike a bus where ultimately axle load is an issue. A tram can take as many as will fit in. The main issue that puts a damper on it nowadays is backpacks!

tonyp wrote:That depends on the standard of measurement used and which of those standards TfNSW has decided to quote. It might be 4, 6 or 8 ppsm. The point I'm making is that a tram has no restrictions on how many can be loaded on board unlike a bus where ultimately axle load is an issue. A tram can take as many as will fit in.

So trams can carry an infinite number of passengers? Of course not, there is a point where there is simply no more room.

Swift wrote:Maybe they should make one end with no seats so that in quieter times people can go to the clearly signposted end with seating, but it can carry more passengers when needed, a which will be a lot.

That's one of the functions of all those fold-up seats in trams and buses, not only for parking prams and wheelchairs but to increase carrying capacity (via standees) in crush loads.

A typical 30 metre tram carries about 200-220 passengers at 4 ppsm, about 260-270 at 6 ppsm and 300+ at 8 ppsm. TfNSW quotes conservatively at 4 ppsm but, for example clearing crowds at a special event (if there aren't a lot of people with bulky backpacks or Transport jobsworths on the platform preventing people boarding because the tram is "full" when it isn't), the tram can fill to 8 ppsm, an absolute crush load, beyond which at some "infinite" point people would cease to be able to breathe! So those CSELR sets with the quoted capacity of 450 (2x225) could conceivably carry 600.

Then of course there's the practical matter of doors because crush loads are a bit pointless if nobody can get on or off in a timely manner. So expecting loading at 6 or 8 ppsm is unrealistic if there's only a door e,g. every 10 metres. During public discussion of the announcement some time ago that the metro trains would be carrying passengers at 4 ppsm (again they could carry more if necessary), TfNSW (accidentally?) disclosed the information that the capacity of Sydney's buses and double deck trains was rated at only about 2.5 ppsm. This is a direct reflection of the poor situation with doors and internal circulation and standee distribution on both types of vehicle. Double deck trains are a bit of a basket case for passenger capacity (unless everybody is only riding end to end on an event journey) but buses, as we know, are capable of much better if designed better.

Which brings me back to the point of whether those 393s are really full to their design loads.

tonyp wrote:That's one of the functions of all those fold-up seats in trams and buses, not only for parking prams and wheelchairs but to increase carrying capacity (via standees) in crush loads.

Theoretically yes but I don't see people who have a seat getting up so that more people can get on. The only way would be what they do in some places which is lock them into the up position during rush hour.

tonyp wrote:TfNSW quotes conservatively at 4 ppsm but, for example clearing crowds at a special event (if there aren't a lot of people with bulky backpacks or Transport jobsworths on the platform preventing people boarding because the tram...

Back on form Tony, more name calling, this time people who are just doing as they are instructed to do are 'jobsworths'.

Here is a tip, get out of your ivory tower and see what really happens on the ground, instead of throwing s*** at others. I don't know which is worse; your downtalking of people who you clearly feel you are superior to, or the apathetic administrators who sit on their hands and do nothing about it.

tonyp wrote:A typical 30 metre tram carries about 200-220 passengers at 4 ppsm, about 260-270 at 6 ppsm and 300+ at 8 ppsm. TfNSW quotes conservatively at 4 ppsm but, for example clearing crowds at a special event (if there aren't a lot of people with bulky backpacks or Transport jobsworths on the platform preventing people boarding because the tram is "full" when it isn't), the tram can fill to 8 ppsm, an absolute crush load, beyond which at some "infinite" point people would cease to be able to breathe! So those CSELR sets with the quoted capacity of 450 (2x225) could conceivably carry 600.

Conceivable if this was Beijing, Tokyo or Sao Paulo. Have you ever seen how Sydneysiders behave during severe train disruptions? They don't even try to squeeze on, even if they've been waiting on the platform for an hour. Meanwhile I step around the crowd and squeeze my way in.

Here is a tip, get out of your ivory tower and see what really happens on the ground, instead of throwing s*** at others. I don't know which is worse; your downtalking of people who you clearly feel you are superior to, or the apathetic administrators who sit on their hands and do nothing about it.

Whatever the administrators and other elites in the transport system do, it doesn't absolve the drivers and unions from putting the barriers up that prevent efficient running of the buses. In case you missed it, tonyp constantly criticises managers and the government too, in addition to drivers and unions. He's not specifically going after drivers themselves, he's going after everyone in the entire system and that includes the drivers.

Also, he's calling marshalls jobsworths here not drivers. Obviously considering that most of the world can pack buses and trams to the brim using all doors without marshalls, he does have a point here.

Ah apologies. I don't think the administrators do a terrible job. They keep things running pretty well keeping in mind that people have different views on how transport systems should run (which includes the drivers).