I feel like that stats of T16 set is not worth sacrificing to get the T15 bonus. T15 bonus does not fit into my playstyle really, but the T16 bonus is not really that bad either.

+We are likely to see a lot of GC abusing in this tier.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

From my experience 25H bosses don't hit that much harder.
2p is good for Tortos adds but other than that I don't see it being that useful.

They hit 20-25% higher. What is far from much.
There are some exceptions, like Snapping Bite does 30% more damage. And on the other side Megeara breaths for the same amount of damage. The devs vary this from fight-to-fight, but it is around 20-25(-30)%. 25% is the most common, in my experience. (Although I have only done such calculations on few logs, as they bore the heck out from me quickly. )

Originally Posted by huth

It's kinda amazing how many hands these guys have, anyway. Our tank pally can put his hands on 3 different people and still hold his weapon and shield and make unsavory gestures towards enemies.

U mad bro?
Not like this was your first post like... this, but still...
Maybe you should get your facts right first, and don't bring flaming posts about 25vs10 here.

You might want to check how many posts I have in this thread >.>

10 man bosses hit less hard than 25 man bosses. Fact. That is indisputable. I happen to have had to opportunity to tank both 10H and 25H T14 and T15 bosses on my paladin. The damage intake was rather less on 10 man.

Boss deals maximum swings of 170-200k to the tank in the 10H logs
Boss deals maximum swings of 300-330k to the tank in the 25H logs

The 10 man tanks say that they are literally never in danger of dying. 25 man tanks are, sometimes, in danger of dying.

10 man tanks get about 50-70% of the vengeance that a 25 man tank gets.

If you take less damage, then the T15 4p is less attractive to you. Fact.

10 man tanks would therefore be less likely to consider the T15 4p viable as a means of increasing your ShoR uptime.

So don't get your panties in a twist because somebody said that 10 man bosses do less damage than 25 man bosses. Because that is simply how the game works. And you, Wanko, don't need to start throwing around accusations of trolling or of inciting a 25v10 flame war either.

Can you please cite some sources/evidence when you say that the damage done to a tank on both sizes is fairly similar? Because that is not what I have experienced this expansion when tanking in all four difficulty and raid size combinations, and not what everybody I know has experienced. So either the whole world is doing it wrong and taking 30-50% more damage than they should be, or you are just looking for a fight.

First. 20-25% is for specials/nukes, not for melee swings. Normally I don't care about melee swings, since they aren't important normally. (Except if the nuke wouldn't reset the melee swing timer, but even then meh.) And it is rather obvious that you can't increase the damage on the nukes as much for 25H, as you can increase it for basic melee swings. This is easily noticeable if you compare how much damage they took from specials vs melee swings. A extreme example is Megaera, where the breaths/rampage deals exactly the same damage on both, so the only difference is the melee damage.

Second. Jin'rokh is a bad example for comparing melee swings. For the simple fact that while the boss hits one of the tanks, the raid damage is relatively low. Which is also obvious from the ridiculous amount of absorbs the 25m tank has on herself. For ex on Megaera, this looks completely differently, if we take two random logs:

Even here the melee damage has a extra 30%, but it's relatively less important. Primarily as the encounter is more about raid-healing than anything else.

No-one ever said that on 25man there isn't more outgoing damage, but you comment was unneeded, and rude. The difference between outgoing damage ain't huge enough to call it "overcooked spaghetti", it is just enough to compensate for the more HoTs/splash healing the tanks get.

PS: Also on Jin'rokh, only half of my Damage Intake was from melee swings, and everything else deals the same damage on both difficulty. So even if it would melee you 50% harder, it would be in the ~25% increased damage I said. Kinda. Unless I should sleep, and I missed something.

Last edited by Shahei; 2013-07-28 at 02:46 AM.

Originally Posted by huth

It's kinda amazing how many hands these guys have, anyway. Our tank pally can put his hands on 3 different people and still hold his weapon and shield and make unsavory gestures towards enemies.

You have the tank(s) taking a significantly larger amount of large melee swings than in ten man (12 in the ten man log, 43 in the 25 man log - almost four times as many). The high damage melee swings also only come from the green head in the 10 man log, which is the only head whose debuff stack increases melee damage taken by the target, the others enhance spell damage only. There are almost as many 250+k swings in the 25 man log as there are 200+k swings in the ten man log.

"Specials" rarely result in a tank death, because we plan for cooldowns to cover them. Like using unglyphed Divine Protection for breaths 1+3 at Megaera. If a special attack does result in a tank death, it is mostly due to a special+1 or 2 swings combination; i.e. the melee swing is what makes that moment dangerous, not the special.

Meg is probably the worst boss to take as an example, green head's breath increases damage taken.

25s bosses hit harder, compensation for having 5-6 healers.
I raid both 10s and 25s (separate lockouts ftw), and tank deaths happen more often in 10s just because there is a higher chance of one of the healers suddenly dying, other one too busy healing raid or smth like that. in 25s even 2 dead healers won't result in tank's death.

Meg is probably the worst boss to take as an example, green head's breath increases damage taken.

But that affects both difficulties.
We technically should search for 2 tanks, who:
a) have the same class
b) have around the same ilvl
c) tank the same head in the same order, and should also take the same amount of stacks
And then there are the adds too...
+ if we look at paladins, then there is SoTR coverage too. Or the druids ability to reduce auto attacks. >.>

Warriors are at least somewhat easier in this regard. (Unless their co-tank is a druid...) Except they like to use the tank-meta. : \ Meh.
Meg is bad for showing that the bosses hit harder on 25man. As that encounter is taxing enough for the healers without that... Even I brought it up as a extreme case.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Butler Log

Taking your Megaera logs as an example, while the dtps is similar, look at the amount of melee swings over 200k (i.e. burst events):

The problem with this is that since the boss will obviously melee harder on 25H, this number would be obviously higher there. Even I only brought Meg up as a example where tanks don't take much more damage on 25H. Even if you look at the swing you can see it, the melee might hit even 30-35% harder, the overall damage they take won't be that much different. But this is because this is Meg. Where it isn't like normally, that the tanks take 80-90% of the damage. Instead it is there as a raid-damage.
It is the opposite of Jin'rokh. Where there is either only tank-damage or raid-damage. There is obviously some minor raid-damage even outside from the thunderstorm phase, but that is rather negligible. (Well, except when ppl fail, and they will be one-shoot.)

About specials: I tipically care about specials as I want to know how hard they will hit approx, so I can plan CDs. And for some bosses this ain't that obvious. (Twins or Ji-kun for ex, where it is in melee wpn damage % in the tooltip.) Knowing how hard a melee swing will hit me is less advantageous.

Originally Posted by huth

It's kinda amazing how many hands these guys have, anyway. Our tank pally can put his hands on 3 different people and still hold his weapon and shield and make unsavory gestures towards enemies.

Most of the raid damage comes from the Rampage phases though, when the tanks take zero melee damage at all. The damage alternates between tanks getting beat up and the raid getting bombarded with magic damage.

Most of the raid damage comes from the Rampage phases though, when the tanks take zero melee damage at all. The damage alternates between tanks getting beat up and the raid getting bombarded with magic damage.

Even on 25H Meg the tank damage ain't high. Unless they are on the green head in the end. (With it's +haste stacks & the +damage stacks from the breath.)

There are 6 rampages in the encounter (as you need to kill 7 heads), each last 20 sec.
6*20 = 120 sec, or 2 min.
Typically the encounter last around ~8 minutes. So ~25% of the encounter is a Rampage.
It is true, that the tanks take (aprox, there are 2 debuffs, which change this obv.) the same damage during it than everyone else, but the damage during the remaining 75% ain't much higher either than on 10H.

They could have maybe made the boss hit harder there, but more than likely they excepted people to actually kill the green head sometimes. Which would have cause more raid damage. Or something. It doesn't necessarily has to make a sense for us, what they do.

Originally Posted by huth

It's kinda amazing how many hands these guys have, anyway. Our tank pally can put his hands on 3 different people and still hold his weapon and shield and make unsavory gestures towards enemies.