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in order of when they became heroic to you.
I think this says quite a lot about people's music taste as theyre usually "turning points" in your taste. Obviously there are bands you love, maybe more than your heroes, but arnt "heroic" in the same way, or have meant as much.

'jewish girls are smelly, catholic girls are easy, and if you get offended its because you don't get the IRONY...yes, check me out, I am AMERICAN and I Do IRONY, look at me everyone, look at me. Now I will widdle on my guitar for twenty minutes'

Sort of like a fake, lame Beefheart crossed with a mean version of the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band

dunno if you've ever heard the bonzo dog doo dah band...they made lots of very very silly music, as did Zappa, but the huge difference is that their stuff seemed to be silly for the sheer joyful sake of it, whereas Zappa was on a constant piss take mission that is really quite unpleasant.

I once spent a car journey listening to his stuff, and I was just horrified. It's constant mean spirited digs at all sorts of people, which is fine in small doses, but once you've heard that once, you don't need to hear endless minute variations on the same theme over and over.

I think what I'm saying is that once you've heard one Zappa 'catholic girls are sluts' song, you've heard them all, and once you've heard one Zappa ten minute guitar widdle, you've heard THEM all, and they are basically the only two things he ever did.

even though i've done it at least ten times on this forum to no avail.

I don't know which albums you've heard, nor have i heard more than a fraction of his work (though if you posted these ten albums i'd probably find some way to defend those i've heard). But he's produced some OUTSTANDING work, particularly his early career. I don't care about his decline into toilet humour, in fact i've purposely avoided as much of it as i can. But his early career is incredible. I defy anyone to say his first 3 albums are anything less than magical. If he began his career again today i have no doubt that the collective mind of DiS would be creaming themselves with each new release. And that would be discounting his pioneer status, being one of the most innovative and far reaching producers and using technology like tape editing to make music that pwns most modern day producers despite their myriad of technological gadgets.

And he wasn't just showing of with these techniques, he used them because he was a fucking composer of the highest calibre. You say "pop > jazzwank".. well he made pop music for a large portion of his career. In fact, he made pop music so well that if he so desired he could have been the greatest pop star ever (or at least written some of the greatest pop music ever). He knew virtually every style of music inside out, and utilised it as he saw fit.

And as for the smugness criticism (btw, this post is directed at grockle as much as restlessboy).. well i find it pretty ridiculous. Of course he was smug, probably more than most, and of course it affected his quality control. But smugness is something that informs so much great music. You might not rate them as highly as i do but Bob Dylan, The Smiths, Nick Cave, Brian Eno are all massively smug artists, and part of smugness is having the self confidence to do what the fuck you like with music, thus furthering your art. And it extends to so many other artists who you might not give a fuck about, but i love. If you don't like this sort of attitude then we share little in common musically: sneering condescension is so necessary to music its absurd to write it off. Fuck, there'd probably be no rock without it

And either way, Zappa wasn't just about that. Grockle talks about innocent silliness, well of course he did that as well. Zappa was just as willing to laugh at himself and at absurd abstractions. And he often pulled out genuinely touching songs as well

Admittedly, if i'd been growing up around his latter period i'd probably think he was shit as well. And i have no idea what albums you've heard, but i hope that its only the later shit for you to have such disdain for him. Frankly, i don't want his toilet humour or his ridiculously self absorbed instrumental workouts. But he's done enough that i'd class as amazing for it not to matter to me. I'll stick with the good (early) stuff and call him a "genius" anyway

I care, I don't hate his earlier stuff MUCH...I can cope with stuff from freak out etc, but its not amazing enough for me to forget the shit that came after that. I find it rare that thinking about an artist makes me angry- but he really does

grockle: I dont know if youve heard it, but listen to apostrophe and tell me most of it isnt pop. Its completely "silly" and subversive and with brilliantly noodly melodies that dont sound like "jazz wank". He even does "proper" songs like "uncle remus".

I concider myself to be a real late bloomer when goes to music appreciation. I love to hear that you've connected with these people at such a young age! Nobody at my school when I was growing up gave a toss about art or music so I had no-one to get tips from (not even older brothers or sisters) I was concidered a muso cos I had the first Skunk Anansie album for fuck sake!

But when your only musical influences are your parents (granted i was lucky in that both my parents were pretty well informed musically) or TV the full extent of what music is being produced does occur to you. I had to wait for uni for that. Then it ALL came at once!!! ie: Went to Uni with about 50 CD's, left with about 6-700!! And now I wonder why I'm still in debt ;)