Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10136Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Blueskies, if I may.....God didn't punish them for what they did with the Tower of Babel, but what they INTENDED to do. The Tower was built with the intention of getting to God, because that was the belief back then, that God and Heaven were in the sky. The Egyptians had their own gods, and didn't build the pyramids with the intention of getting to Jehovah. That is the difference.

As for the language thing, I would imagine that one could look at that and say that what was being taught was that at that time, the "people were of one language" means the people in that area, not all over the world. And if God wants to create confusion, He will do it. Whether it is to instantly cause those in Babel to suddenly be unable to speak the local language, or that He just dazes them such that they simply don't speak or understand what is being said, either could apply. But as W4C stated, you can go to different parts of the country and not completely understand someone. India alone has over 300 languages and dialects. My wife speaks German fluently, but she has trouble understanding some people who come from different parts of Germany and Austria, despite the similarities in the different dialects, not everything is communicated to a point where she completely understands what they are saying. It's like that with many, many languages.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

June 20th, 2012, 10:20 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Blue,

I was re-evaluating all the responses, and something acurred to me that may not have been taken into consideration, but it runs congruent with Scripture and may be hard for you to accept or believe; but I think it's worth sharing anyway.

Year Zero: Adam and Eve were created. Pure, holy, undefiled in any way. By Chapter 3 of Genesis, unknown age or year, they fell by eating the forbidden fruit. This introduced sin into the world, through rebellion and selfishness, and poisoned the blood line. Since that time frame, the human DNA has been progressing away from purity.

So if you have a human that is absolutely pure in everyway organically, what about mentally? What abilities and strengths did they have, even though they didn't have tools? I'm not saying the floated bricks together with the mind or any crazy thing like that, but what kind of thinking and abilities did they have based on what was available to them?

I also wonder if in your deductive reasoning you are super imposing your own thought of a society on them. What I mean is, what if this wasn't a civilization of thousands or hundreds, but maybe fifty? or a hundred? Keep in mind that they had recently come from the ark, and formed a city, but do we imagine a city from our context, which may have only been ten to fifteen tents? And because they had a ruler, we assume he was king and therefore there were several of them?

These are pieces of the puzzle that are missing, and anyone from this time can only speculate based on limited, and often broken data that they find. But yet we still make a judgement or hypothesis on what happened, based on limited info.

Do you see what I'm saying? Science is and can be used to proove the truth of Scripture, but I also believe that there is a segment, albeit large, that doesn't want to validate the Bible, because if the Bible is prooven true, then we are required to deal with our individual futures according to what Scripture says will happen.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

June 21st, 2012, 1:26 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

Year Zero: Adam and Eve were created. Pure, holy, undefiled in any way. By Chapter 3 of Genesis, unknown age or year, they fell by eating the forbidden fruit. This introduced sin into the world, through rebellion and selfishness, and poisoned the blood line. Since that time frame, the human DNA has been progressing away from purity.

This is interesting and got me thinking. If you take this movie at face value in many ways the movie conflicts with this statement by W4C comment. If you read Genesis 3 (I've personally read Genesis by far more than any other book of the OT), as a result of the sin introduced by Adam/Eve things like sin and death would now be introduced in the previous "good" creation and everything was in "harmony". But with the acceptance of different timeframes, it is easy to see much death and sin from the timeframe pre Adam/Eve (the fossil record is an obvious display of dealth, but also reveals violence, disease, suffering, etc.).

IMO there is a major catch-22 in the premise of this movie in addition to very questionable science. Perhaps that's just the natural skeptic in me...

Pablo: Could you explain this further please? I don't quite understand what you're saying.

But with the acceptance of different timeframes, it is easy to see much death and sin from the timeframe pre Adam/Eve (the fossil record is an obvious display of dealth, but also reveals violence, disease, suffering, etc.).

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

June 21st, 2012, 6:05 pm

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2882

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Pablo, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think he's trying to say is that if:

1) You accept the premise of the movie that the earth was made over billions of years and life appeared on the planet consistent with modern scientific findings (ie Dinosaurs were here millions of years before us)

and

2) You believe that death and suffering didn't exist until after Eve ate the tainted fruit

then

Logically you are facing a contradiction: the dinosaurs obviously faced things like death, disease, etc which would contradict your beliefs.

Of course, a skeptic should never argue with a true believer. Because no matter how much doubt you cast or holes you shoot in the belief system, the believer will just come up with some excuse or illogical interpretation to throw your doubt off. I'm sure W4C will counter with, "well, I only meant death for human beings! Dinosaur death doesn't count!" or something along those lines.

June 21st, 2012, 8:00 pm

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2882

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

I read this quote the other week and it is amazing:

It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they've been fooled.

June 21st, 2012, 8:01 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

So now you are sure what or how I will respond to shoot holes in your theory huh? Amusing....

Actually let me aim at your own statement in response.

I think he's trying to say is that if:1) You accept the premise of the movie that the earth was made over billions of years and life appeared on the planet consistent with modern scientific findings (ie Dinosaurs were here millions of years before us)

and

2) You believe that death and suffering didn't exist until after Eve ate the tainted fruit

then

Logically you are facing a contradiction: the dinosaurs obviously faced things like death, disease, etc which would contradict your beliefs.

Here's the rub, you are assuming that "modern" scientific finding are correct, which is a HUGE crap shoot at best. Science does NOT have all the pieces, nor was there a single person from any course of "modern" time ever around at that time, so all they have is speculation based upon a series of findings.

You do realize that a lie told often enough, quickly becomes the truth right?

My point is that you are quick to discredit "Christian Science" as being biased, and untrue, but yet you don't apply the same standard to modern science. Why is that? Could it be that one side is much smaller than the other, not only in number but in beliefs? ICR and other organizations are looking at the data, comparing it to Scripture, and then going from there. The world's science has come up with an "estimated" age based upon carbon dating and it's a flawed aging system.

Did I not point out in another thread that a Dutch Scientist from 100+ years ago, actually discovered that Electromagnetic Rays break down at a common and known rate from year to year. So let's say it 1% each year, after 100 years, the EMF has totally dissolved right? Now go in reverse, 1 + 1 + 1, till you get to 100% full. Obviously my number is wrong, but what this Scientist was able to discover is that in a 100% pure EMF the Earth is TOO HOT for life. So HIS theory was that the aging system of carbon dating and Earth's age could not be entirely true based on the data put forth.

So my point is that DEATH did NOT enter the world until Genesis 3:21, when God made skins to cover Adam and Eve, because their fig leaves were irritating and uncomfortable. From that point on the shedding of blood became a mainstay of covering sin, leading up to the sacrifice of Christ to cover sin for all mankind. Israel had thousands of years of blood sacrifices for atonement, and may even continue the practice today, I'm not sure. So prior to this period there is no mention of death because all was in harmony and perfect.

As for your quote, I have another couple for you:

1. Psalm 14: 1-3, "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."

2. Proverbs 1:7, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

3. 1 Cor. 1:18, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. "

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

June 22nd, 2012, 8:43 am

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Blueskies wrote:

Pablo, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think he's trying to say is that if:

1) You accept the premise of the movie that the earth was made over billions of years and life appeared on the planet consistent with modern scientific findings (ie Dinosaurs were here millions of years before us)

and

2) You believe that death and suffering didn't exist until after Eve ate the tainted fruit

then

Logically you are facing a contradiction: the dinosaurs obviously faced things like death, disease, etc which would contradict your beliefs.

Of course, a skeptic should never argue with a true believer. Because no matter how much doubt you cast or holes you shoot in the belief system, the believer will just come up with some excuse or illogical interpretation to throw your doubt off. I'm sure W4C will counter with, "well, I only meant death for human beings! Dinosaur death doesn't count!" or something along those lines.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm trying to say - sorry if my statement was confusing.

So now you are sure what or how I will respond to shoot holes in your theory huh? Amusing....

Actually let me aim at your own statement in response.

I think he's trying to say is that if:1) You accept the premise of the movie that the earth was made over billions of years and life appeared on the planet consistent with modern scientific findings (ie Dinosaurs were here millions of years before us)

and

2) You believe that death and suffering didn't exist until after Eve ate the tainted fruit

then

Logically you are facing a contradiction: the dinosaurs obviously faced things like death, disease, etc which would contradict your beliefs.

Here's the rub, you are assuming that "modern" scientific finding are correct, which is a HUGE crap shoot at best. Science does NOT have all the pieces, nor was there a single person from any course of "modern" time ever around at that time, so all they have is speculation based upon a series of findings.

You do realize that a lie told often enough, quickly becomes the truth right?

My point is that you are quick to discredit "Christian Science" as being biased, and untrue, but yet you don't apply the same standard to modern science. Why is that? Could it be that one side is much smaller than the other, not only in number but in beliefs? ICR and other organizations are looking at the data, comparing it to Scripture, and then going from there. The world's science has come up with an "estimated" age based upon carbon dating and it's a flawed aging system.

Did I not point out in another thread that a Dutch Scientist from 100+ years ago, actually discovered that Electromagnetic Rays break down at a common and known rate from year to year. So let's say it 1% each year, after 100 years, the EMF has totally dissolved right? Now go in reverse, 1 + 1 + 1, till you get to 100% full. Obviously my number is wrong, but what this Scientist was able to discover is that in a 100% pure EMF the Earth is TOO HOT for life. So HIS theory was that the aging system of carbon dating and Earth's age could not be entirely true based on the data put forth.

So my point is that DEATH did NOT enter the world until Genesis 3:21, when God made skins to cover Adam and Eve, because their fig leaves were irritating and uncomfortable. From that point on the shedding of blood became a mainstay of covering sin, leading up to the sacrifice of Christ to cover sin for all mankind. Israel had thousands of years of blood sacrifices for atonement, and may even continue the practice today, I'm not sure. So prior to this period there is no mention of death because all was in harmony and perfect.

As for your quote, I have another couple for you:

1. Psalm 14: 1-3, "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."

2. Proverbs 1:7, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

3. 1 Cor. 1:18, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. "

You did mentioned that theory in other threads, but it's not a credible theory. It has been debunked and discredited by scientists the world over. The flaw in his theory is that he took measurements from a short time period (150 years or so) and assumed that the relatively uniform decline he saw would hold over thousands of years. Subsequently, it has been discovered that this is not the case, and that sometimes the earth has even reversed polarity. Here's one article from NASA discussing how the earth's magnetic field is always changing: http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/29dec_magneticfield.html

A good analogy (I think) to the Dutch scientist's fatal flaw is the following: A person can measure the rate at which the tide of the ocean goes out. Assuming that the tide will continue moving out at that same speed, eventually the entire ocean will recede all the way to the other coast. This is obviously ridiculous, and the same kind of scrutiny must also be applied to the magnetic field theory. Just because at the time of his measurement the field was deteriorating at a constant rate, doesn't mean it always has.

The bottom line is that there are times throughout history when the magnetic field of the earth has shifted in strange ways, and it is definitely not a pure, linear degradation. That alone completely debunks the theory.

_________________"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

Really, the movie is about a translation issue. The Hebrew word "yom" is often translated as "day." This is where the 6-day creation story originated, and the reason why "young Earth" Creationists say the Earth is only 6000 years old (a mistranslation of the word "yom," leading them to think in 24-hour increments). The word "yom" is used throughout the Old Testament and has a variety of possible meanings, including "infinity" or a concept as abstract as "time."

Thus, the word "yom" can refer to a measure of time that is of indeterminate length. In this regard, the 6 days of the creation story in the Bible could indeed have occurred over the course of a few billion years. The film is essentially forwarding an "old Earth" version of Creationism, not a "young Earth" version.

_________________Proud member of the Contract Extension for Schwartz Fan Club.

June 22nd, 2012, 1:30 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Thanks TDJ, I was not aware of that and appreciate the update, that will not be used again in discussion.

But the point does remain true that death was not mentioned in Scripture prior to Genesis 3:21, and some texts don't even mention death, but do mention that God made skins.

I would also like to interject another thought here in that what I think is occurring is a complete mistranslation but not in words perse but in thinking.

Dr. Ray Vanderlaan, is a teacher in Grand Rapids and also a Rabbi, and Pastor I believe as well. He makes mention of two forms of thinking that carry through to this day. I forgot what he labeled them but it was quite interesting to see how it permeates are thinking to this day.

Here's his example: If you ask a Jew to tell you how a frog lives, the Jew will go into the environment and watch to see exactly what the frog does. What it eats, how it swims, how it mates, and so on, meanwhile the other thinking of the day that has given birth to the "western" mindset is the Greek thinking. In the Greek thinking, if you were to ask a Greek the same question, he will capture a frog and begin to disect it, telling you how each system works, and it's processes.

This is where it's difficult to finish it up because I can't remember the two forms of thinking by name. But one is based upon environment, and how it lives using solid information, the other is scientific and uses information found in the abstract, or outside looking in.

I will try to see if I can find it.....

But further still, what I said earlier is that this discussion is asking us to look back there, when we should be paying attention to whats coming. However, I realize that proof of back there, may assist some of you with making a decision about what's ahead.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

June 22nd, 2012, 4:10 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

However, I realize that proof of back there, may assist some of you with making a decision about what's ahead.

You, more than most, has a future that is all based on what is in the past - the very distant past. In fact, you devote your life to it to a large degree.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

when we should be paying attention to whats coming

Interesting. But what about right now? Much is lost if you don't "live in the moment" - something I have learned to do much better thanks to my two boys. From a spiritual standpoint, I hear most people talk about God in terms of what has happened in the past or what will happen in the future, but IMO in order to know God you to see him in the current moment to truly understand. I hope that makes sense (even if coming from an agnostic perspective further complicates the conversation).

However, I realize that proof of back there, may assist some of you with making a decision about what's ahead.

You, more than most, has a future that is all based on what is in the past - the very distant past. In fact, you devote your life to it to a large degree.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

when we should be paying attention to whats coming

Interesting. But what about right now? Much is lost if you don't "live in the moment" - something I have learned to do much better thanks to my two boys. From a spiritual standpoint, I hear most people talk about God in terms of what has happened in the past or what will happen in the future, but IMO in order to know God you to see him in the current moment to truly understand. I hope that makes sense (even if coming from an agnostic perspective further complicates the conversation).

Hey Pablo, I am happy to say that you and I are in 100% agreement in a theology thread! I could not agree with you more about living in the moment. But don't let perceptions fool you. You see a ton of the doom and gloom stuff on tv and movies, or inspirational future focused stuff in yer sappy chick flicks. And lord knows ( pun intended) most of the tv parishioners are straight up selling fear...but... When you actually go to church there is a lot of celebrating the moment. Picnics, pancake breakfasts, golf outings, heck there is like a baby shower a week it seems at my church.

One of my favorite people in the bible is Solomon. He was very much a live in the moment kind of guy. On top of being considered amongst the wisest man on the planet...he was also a real life of the party. Known to like his women and ...let's just say he didn't buy into the whole no drinking thing. He had a philosophy that I try to adopt in my own life. He said ( and I'm paraphrasing here) nothing you do really matters. No one will know your name, or what type of person you were in 1000 years for now, so focus on the moment. Keep god in your heart and enjoy life while you can because it won't last long.

Really, the movie is about a translation issue. The Hebrew word "yom" is often translated as "day." This is where the 6-day creation story originated, and the reason why "young Earth" Creationists say the Earth is only 6000 years old (a mistranslation of the word "yom," leading them to think in 24-hour increments). The word "yom" is used throughout the Old Testament and has a variety of possible meanings, including "infinity" or a concept as abstract as "time."

Thus, the word "yom" can refer to a measure of time that is of indeterminate length. In this regard, the 6 days of the creation story in the Bible could indeed have occurred over the course of a few billion years. The film is essentially forwarding an "old Earth" version of Creationism, not a "young Earth" version.

Just curious, Have you watched The Genesis Code? Your statements suggest that you have. I used to be a young Earth Creationist. But, this film and a more literal reading of Genesis together have converted me to an OLD Earth Creationist.

Really, the movie is about a translation issue. The Hebrew word "yom" is often translated as "day." This is where the 6-day creation story originated, and the reason why "young Earth" Creationists say the Earth is only 6000 years old (a mistranslation of the word "yom," leading them to think in 24-hour increments). The word "yom" is used throughout the Old Testament and has a variety of possible meanings, including "infinity" or a concept as abstract as "time."

Thus, the word "yom" can refer to a measure of time that is of indeterminate length. In this regard, the 6 days of the creation story in the Bible could indeed have occurred over the course of a few billion years. The film is essentially forwarding an "old Earth" version of Creationism, not a "young Earth" version.

Just curious, Have you watched The Genesis Code? Your statements suggest that you have. I used to be a young Earth Creationist. But, this film and a more literal reading of Genesis together have converted me to an OLD Earth Creationist.

I've seen much of it but stopped because it's a painfully poor movie (just judging its quality as a film, not its idea). Honestly, the ideas presented aren't new--Inherit the Wind covered these issues (including "old Earth" Creation) about fifty years ago. And THAT was a dynamite film (and play).

_________________Proud member of the Contract Extension for Schwartz Fan Club.