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Jeff and Dave spoke with Scott Kim a few weeks before he was scheduled to speak at our No Barriers Summit in Tahoe. Scott called in from his hometown of San Francisco (and was appropriately sporting a Warriors jersey) to tell them about his journey to success in creation of the Rapael Smart Glove. As with other innovators and entrepreneurs they have spoken with previously – Scott outlines the difficulties and barriers he faced and how he dealt with them.

Background: Scott is the CEO of NEOFECT USA, and one of the founders of its parent company, NEOFECT, a rehabilitation technology company headquartered in South Korea. He wore several different hats before joining Neofect – a management consultant and a product manager in the software industry. Scott worked for mobile gaming companies such as GREE, Z2Live (which was acquired by King.com, a “Candy Crush” maker) and 505 Games, and founded a couple of startups. Recently, NEOFECT went on an IPO in November 2018, and is currently traded on the KOSDAQ.

A passion project; this innovation was born from personal experience. Scott was born with spinal bifida and has undergone surgery and understands the long process of rehabilitation. His prior experience in the gaming software industry has also contributed to his ability to create the games and software for the Rapael Smart Glove in the US market.

Previous: Episode 21

Scott Kim:None of us were health care experts. We are just so brave. And there’s a Korean saying that, “If you are ignored, then, usually you’re brave.” That completely applied, guys.

Erik W:It’s easy to talk about the successes, but what doesn’t get talked about enough is the struggle. My name is Erik Weihenmayer. I’ve gotten the chance to ascend Mount Everest, to climb the tallest mountain in every continent, to kayak the Grand Canyon, and I happen to be blind. It’s been a struggle to live what I call a No Barriers life, to define it, to push the parameters of what it means. And part of the equation is diving into the learning process and trying to illuminate the universal elements that exist along the way. And that unexplored terrain between those dark places we find ourselves in, in the summit, exists a map. That map, that way forward, is what we call No Barriers.

Dave:Today we meet Scott Kim who is the CEO of NEOFECT USA and one of the founders of its parent company NEOFECT, a rehabilitation technology company headquartered in South Korea. In 2018 NEOFECT went on an IPO and is currently traded on the KOSDAQ. Scott was born with Spina Bifida and has undergone multiple surgeries and understands the long process of rehabilitation. His prior experience in the gaming software industry has also contributed to his ability to create the games and software for the RAPAEL Smart Glove in the U.S. market. Scott will be presenting at our No Barriers Summit in June as part of the innovation panel.

Dave:Welcome everybody to today’s No Barriers podcast. We are thrilled to have Scott Kim joining us, who is a presenter at the No Barriers Summit, June 13th through the 15th in Tahoe, speaking on our Innovation Panel. Thrilled and lucky to have him and I just want to welcome Scott. Thank you so much for joining us.

Scott Kim:Yeah, we are based in San Francisco in California. And that’s our U.S. headquarter. And we also have a satellite office in Richmond, Virginia. And we have a few other folks in Dallas, Chicago, and Orange County area.

Jeff:When you say us, tell us about us.

Scott Kim:So, us… When I say, “Us”… it’s actually a company NEOFECT. And to actually go back to the question, our global headquarter is in South Korea, right outside. So when I say, “Us” it’s NEOFECT. And then, us, more specifically later, it’s more like NEOFECT USA, which is the U.S. operations of the NEOFECT.

Jeff:Give us a little bit of a background of NEOFECT, in how it segues into you being a part of the Innovation Panel. Because obviously those two things are quite synonymous. So give us a sense of what NEOFECT is and some of the impacts that you’ve seen, that came from it.

Scott Kim:NEOFECT is… We try to make it as new effect. So we wanted to make the new effect in, more specifically, rehabilitation. So we are a company that makes both hardware and software. And mainly for patients with neurological conditions such as stroke or spinal cord injuries or traumatic brain injury or cerebral palsy or Parkinson’s disease. And what we do is basically to make the rehabilitation or, just recovery, more engaging. But at the same time, more measurable and trackable using the data pusher.

Scott Kim:For example, our flagship device is called the Smart Glove. And what that does is, you simply wear the glove and then you play games. And basically all the motions that you’re making with the glove on are recognized by the software. So you can virtually play games with a glove on. For example, you can catch baseball or just do some cooking or just squeeze some orange and things like that.

Scott Kim:It’s a game, but at the same time you’re going through the clinically proven process and software measures all the progress. And then, patients and patient’s family and clinicians can check more objective manner, how much progress that they’re making. And then it’s actually run by the AI, so Artificial Intelligence. It’s like the Netflix of rehabilitation. Yeah. Netflix knows what kind of movies you are going to watch or you are going to want to watch. And our system actually… It’s basically… Like based on the evaluation and their goal, they can actually predict what kind of rehabilitation exercise they need to work on to get better.

Jeff:So I’m looking at… I’m on the website right now and I’m seeing some imagery up there. And just to be able to paint a picture for folks, there’s a gentleman sitting there with the Smart Glove on and he’s looking at his computer screen, a desktop. And it’s replicating his real life movements onto the screen in an animated way. So it’s… Turns it into more of a game format, like what you’re talking about. Is that accurate?

Scott Kim:That’s pretty accurate. And I don’t know if anyone’s old enough to remember Nintendo Power Glove? So basically, it’s like that. It’s like you make motions and in the screen, you can actually see your virtual hand mimicking your action. So the glove doesn’t move your hand. But this is all about active range of motion because when it comes to neurological conditions, like, for example, a stroke… Once anyone has stroke, then they get paralyzed and then they lose a lot of motion. And what matters going forward is repetitive action. It’s how much of repetitive exercise you’re doing over time. And that basically decides the key factor of how successful the rehab becomes. But-

Jeff:It’s not an assistive device then per se? It’s not allowing you to manipulate your motor motions as much as it is quantifying the motions?

Scott Kim:Yes, exactly. So, I mean your description is pretty much right on. And it does not move your hand. I mean, we do have other device that actually moves your hand. But for a Smart Glove, per se, it doesn’t move your hand. But it basically helps you to make repetitive action more engaging manner. But at the same time, more trackable and measurable because software and hardware work together.

Dave:And I remember I was visiting a rehab faculty at Mount Sinai in Manhattan and they had a… They were exploring gamification. And one of the things that they explained to me is that it’s very hard to get stroke patients to do these repetitive exercises. That maybe they send them home with a printout that shows you the exercise to do. And we all know how bad we are doing something that’s kind of boring and repetitive. And so these things make the exercise more fun, is my understanding. And you almost forget that you’re doing the formal exercise because you’re having fun while doing it. Is that the idea?

Scott Kim:Yeah, that is definitely the idea. And, I mean, usually based on what we hear and what we observe, it’s like patients, after they start going to outpatient clinic and then they go home. And a lot of people just sit on their couch and watch TV. And probably most of the listeners here have one or, you know, or a couple or several experiences regarding rehabilitation. It’s pretty repetitive and sometimes it gets boring. And then you even forget how many times that you did, like today and tomorrow. So all these kind of issues… It doesn’t really help the patient to keep working on the rehabilitation on the track. So what we’re trying to do is, especially in the comfort of home, if there’s any way that we can motivate the patients more and more fun way, but at the same time, more feasible way, then, we felt like it’s going to be a great idea.

Dave:Tell us a little bit about where this idea started. What germinated the concept for you?

Scott Kim:This was like nine years ago, and I was in business school. I went to Darden School of Business at UVA, University of Virginia. And I met a classmate who also is from Korea. And there was one class that we took together. And then every time, after the class, we would just walk back home together. And this guy was really interesting guy. He would just talk about so many business ideas. And I did management consulting before MBA. So it’s very… I don’t know, it’s typical office job. And I’d never done anything entrepreneurial. But this guy had completely different backgrounds. He basically blew everything and his net worth was pretty much zero when he came to business school. And he did his own startup. And he definitely was looking for something, you know, banking or consulting or anything that’s very stable.

Scott Kim:But he has this spirit, like entrepreneurial spirit. So he would just talk about so many random things. And then this was one of the ideas that he brought up. And then later, I realized, that he also had another friend who’s probably, you know, 150 times more entrepreneurial than this guy even. And both actually had the engineering background. So for me, it’s like I studied business in undergrad, too. So, I mean, I only knew how to criticize any idea, but I didn’t really know how to actually start being innovative or how to really think like sky’s the limit. And my friend definitely had the idea. But obviously, I was criticizing all this, all those ideas.

Scott Kim:And then this was one idea that he brought up. And he was like, “Do you know anything about stroke?” And I was like, “No, I don’t know too much about it.” And he actually had a lot of ideas and he actually had personal reason, too. His father passed away from stroke. So he had a lot of in-depth knowledge and he started talking about it. And then, what really caught my attention was the rehabilitation part. Just because personally, I was born with Spina Bifida, which is type of disability, when you’re born, on your back. So I’ve gone through major surgery and, thankfully, it was not like… It was a mild case and I was able to recover. But you know, I had fair share of rehabilitation when I was growing up. And, you know, I grew up in South Korea in 80s. And it was not the same country even. It was really boring and I didn’t really know what I was doing.

Scott Kim:So, when he was getting to the rehab part and then he said, “There’s a way that we can make it more fun.” And I was like, “Really?” Then this was the… probably one of very few ideas that I didn’t really criticize because I was so interested in it. And then I naturally thought about my childhood, too, because rehab and fun, they don’t really exist together for me. So, then he started talking about the idea and introduced his friend. And I thought it was amazing. And I was like, “Wow, this is an innovation that we can totally try.” And he was definitely hesitating because of all his past experience. But one day we just agreed that, “Yeah, we’ve got a shot.” And then just, yeah, moved on.

Dave:Yeah. What a great story.

Jeff:Scott, so it sounds like you obviously had a noteworthy childhood experience that impacted why you went into this branch of being an entrepreneur, but it sounds like, you’re a business guy and you saw an opportunity and the collaboration with your friend led to this. Now, since you’ve rolled this out, my guess is, you’ve seen some very, very profound impacts. Can you share with us maybe the most memorable to-date impact that you’ve seen from somebody using your technology?

Scott Kim:Yeah. Yeah, I have a few. One time… So this was like when we were a lot smaller, this experience really reconfirmed why I’m doing this and also reconfirmed our belief that we can definitely shake the tree in this rehab field. So, what the experience was about was, we’re a lot smaller. We probably were like total five people company in the States and just small operation. So, back then we had a lot of time. It’s like, if anyone calls us, then we would just go, because I was so curious about market validation.

Scott Kim:So I was in Seattle and I met this patient, through another clinician. And he was interested in using our device. And, the funny thing is, I think, back then, we didn’t even have the AI driven home software. We only have the software that’s made for hospital. So, we brought that product and we met at his house. And surrounded by all of his family members. And it was a stroke patient. So I started, you know, showcasing the product. And then, the patient was probably in like late 40 or early 50s. And wasn’t super motivated about, you know, actively engaging himself into rehab. And I showcased it, and he’s like, “Yeah, this is great idea. And then you guys are definitely changing things.”

Scott Kim:But he wasn’t really willing to try it just because he was afraid of not making it. And he didn’t have whole lot of motion but I thought, “It’s definitely worth a shot.” And also I was really dying for market validation, too. And his therapist was present. And then, like first five minutes, he was really just passive about everything. But at one moment… I think that the therapist did a great job and she was really engaging him with this and explaining all the details and did all the tricks and some magic just to make him really engage into this.

Scott Kim:And then, it was basically, it was a… I think it was a “squeezing the orange” game. So, if you don’t have any range of motion left in your hand, then basically you see your hand just being still and not being able to make any squeeze. And he was kind of looking at it probably for like 30 seconds or 40 seconds and usually it’s not a good fit. So I was kind of giving up on it. But, all of sudden, he started like really trying with the therapist. And then he started actually squeezing the orange. And obviously it was not the same squeeze that you or I would do, but it’s definitely a little bit of motion. But that little bit of motion still counts. And the family members were all surprised because they’ve never seen this guy making any motion, like something similar to it.

Scott Kim:So, he started repeating. And then it was really working and then he himself was really surprised and family members were in tears. And I actually couldn’t believe either because I was kind of giving up on hope. But then again he started making motions. So, a lot of magical things happen when they see their hand in motion. I mean, it doesn’t really quite make sense to normal people. But by showing how the hand works feasibly, this is a lot for patients because their brain is not used to thinking that their hand can be functioning. But once the brain actually registers the visual images, the brain gets rewired and this is called neuroplasticity. And then, everything starts working.

Scott Kim:And once I saw this, it was very emotional moment for everyone at home. Obviously, then, he started coming out [inaudible] request number two. And then, this kind of thing was really very impactful and now our business-

Jeff:It sounds like positive affirmation is a big part of it, right?

Scott Kim:It is, yeah.

Jeff:Every patient and therapist gets to see these progressive sort of milestones that you reach. Is that part of how you sort of structure this thing? I’m just seeing some of the videos here and it’s instant feedback. It’s like, “Yes, you got that right. You caught this. You changed that. You picked this up.” And then it’s immediate affirmation like, “Yes, I’m doing something that I couldn’t do before.” And then that gives the patient the opportunities to sort of continue to build on that.

Scott Kim:Absolutely. So, positive affirmation, that’s much needed because we met a lot of stroke survivors who are just dealing with depression. Or other type of injuries that really put them down and they don’t want to do anything. Just watch TV. So positive reinforcement, that’s very important. And giving them feedback immediately, right after anything happens due to their motion. It’s really helping the brain rewire things. And so that they can get better.

Scott Kim:Because when it comes to the broken wrist or like finger injury or anything like that, it’s all about the wrist or the fingers. But when it comes to stroke, it’s basically just, the cells… our brain cells are impaired. And then it’s kind of like forgetting how to make an order. So even if you do want to use your hand, without that kind of reinforcement or without the confirmation by the brain, it’s like nothing can be really functioning. So those kind of things like positive reinforcement and affirmation, that’s very important.

Dave:Well, you said that you were really an entrepreneur, as you told the story of the founding of this business. And what you’ve built here is extraordinary. You know, one of your recent stories was talking about the IPO… Was this… This was last year. You had a valuation of $115 million dollars. I mean, you built a big business and I’m sure it’s growing. It’s probably beyond that now. But, tell me how you went from, “Hey, I like this idea. This is one of those ideas, I’m not gonna criticize. I kind of think it’s a good idea.” To actually building a robust business. Because I think that’s not easy to do even when you’ve got a good idea.

Scott Kim:Yeah. Ah, I don’t know, it sounds like cliche, but I think really, passion and staying true to what you believe, is very important. And apparently I had my personal experience. And sometimes, it was like pretty bitter experience when you grew up. And I have huge scar on my back. And it gets down really low. It’s like, they make fun of people who look different. And then I was never participating like PE class in early stage you of elementary school. And these kind of things. It was very personal to me. And then, just looking back… As much as I appreciate all the clinicians and therapists that I’ve met. But it was really boring. So I thought this… I always thought this really can have a shot. Because I can’t be just like only person who think that this kind of rehab is boring.

Scott Kim:And, obviously, my co-founder, and he’s our group CEO, and he has his personal story, too. So we are extremely passionate about what we wanted to do. And it’s like positive reinforcement with each other. It’s like, “Yeah we got this. And even if we fail, then at least we want to be remembered as somebody who actually like give it a shot.” So being passionate is extremely important. And also another thing, I mean, we always joke around. But another thing that made things bigger or just made us grow faster, was simply because none of us were health care experts. We are just so brave. And there’s a Korean saying that, “If you are ignorant, then usually you’re brave.” And that completely applied, guys. And it’s like-

Scott Kim:Yeah. And we knew nothing of health care details. I mean, we did have some patient’s perspective and patient’s families perspective, but any part of the world, health care is always very complicated issue along with the education. Right?

Jeff:Yeah. But that being said, you had… You were involved in health care and rehabilitation. And then it sounds like your partner obviously was immersed in it while his father was going through that process. So it wasn’t like it was absolutely foreign, but yet it sounds like you never jumped into obviously this industry and this rehabilitation industry before. So you were just stepping out there, ignorant and brave at the same time. Right?

Scott Kim:Yeah, extremely ignorant and brave. And we get this praise of… from our… We have a lot of hospital customers, Stanford, NYU, or New York Presbyterian. And just the list goes on. And these guys… They love our device mainly because it’s easy to use and very simple design and things like that. Just because really… We are really brave. We didn’t really know too much about all the details. So none of us were medical doctors or therapists. So, I mean, we still have the same mission. We want to make the device that’s lightweight and portable and affordable. So our major target market was the United States from the very beginning. And little do we know about the American health care system. It was so complicated… I mean, still, it is complicated.

Jeff:Still very complicated, yeah. [crosstalk]

Scott Kim:So we just didn’t look back. So, going back to the story, if you actually compare our product to any other products, it’s like, some products come with lots of functionalities. I’m pretty sure those are all useful and great feature to customers. But, usually those are invented by physicians or therapists. So just because they know so much, they wanted to come up with more features. But for us, we really wanted to stay true to our core mission, something lightweight, portable, and affordable. But, at the same time, it should be engaging. So we didn’t… I mean, we couldn’t even afford to hire the therapists until later. But we didn’t hire any therapists until a couple of years later.

Jeff:So you’ve got full time therapists that are on within the company that would travel with the equipment to different sites? Or do they go to individual’s homes?

Scott Kim:Yeah. We have quite a few clinical managers who are licensed occupational therapists or physical therapists. And what they do is… We don’t… I mean, we used to actually travel to people’s home. And that’s how we met and it was really valuable session, too. But now, I mean, we have more than thousand customers. So right now, we do the video setting, so it’s the consultation through video. So they either consult with prospect customers. Or once anyone becomes our customer, then we do have 40 to 60 minute complimentary training session. Just because usually it gets a lot better when it is just walked through by licensed therapies. So our clinical managers always meet with the customers, through the Skype type video application. And then walk them through how to use it and just make sure it’s just a good solution for them.

Scott Kim:And obviously, they are very heavily involved with the designing features, too, so that we can actually make something that’s clinically meaningful but at the same time, easy to use.

Dave:What is some of the best advice that you’ve received in growing your business?

Scott Kim:Couple of things. I mean, first when we were really-

Jeff:Be ignorant and brave?

Scott Kim:But that’s like… We didn’t know we were ignorant until way later. Then realized we’re… We are very ignorant. And, yeah, I mean, first very practical thing when we are literally surviving, there was a time that we have like $12 in checking account. And when we are literally living day to day and just dealing with the cash issues… Yeah. One very practical advice was, “Yeah, at your stage, when you have a lot of ideas but you need a lot of resource, then you know go for three [inaudible 00:26:25].” They say, like, “Family, friends, and both.” So we definitely secure some seed money from these three [inaudible] and there was one advice.

Scott Kim:And one really good advice was… I mean, I still say this to all my team members, too, but like, “Fail faster.” Everyone’s just set to fail and there’s no way that you can avoid failure because without trial and errors, then you wouldn’t know. But, what really matters is, if you’re meant to be failing, then try faster and then just fail faster. And then admit that this is a failure. And then get together and reset the direction. And then just try completely something different.

Scott Kim:And just because we were really thin in terms of funding and everything in the beginning, this was very helpful. Because without this mentality… It’s like everyone is so afraid of failing. So everyone just wants to succeed and I’m not thinking about the possibility of failing. But, with this mentality, everyone’s basically… They’re out [inaudible] in the field. And try everything that you could do. But obviously you have to prioritize them. But once you have this mentality, and I think a lot of lessons learned, all of those are yours.

Jeff:You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet.

Scott Kim:Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Jeff:So when talking about your products, obviously you said the main product that you have is the Smart Glove. But there’s other things. Did the Smart Glove come first and then you subsequently kept continuing to design these other products like the pegboard and the other things that you’ve made for kids? Did all that come secondarily after the Glove and was that sort of the pioneering product for you?

Scott Kim:Yeah, so Smart Glove definitely was the pioneering product and we were not even sure if it’s going to take off or if it’s gonna be ever sold. And we just wanted to see how things go. And, luckily, first sale was to this Korean National Rehabilitation Center. And they ordered more than 10. I mean, we thought it’s… we’re going to be it just like that. But after that sale, probably for about six months, there was no order.

Scott Kim:But once we realized that this is marketable product and we immediately started thinking about the next project, which was the Smartboard and Smart Kids. So Smart Kids is basically same version. It’s like the same thing but for pediatric patients, for kids. So, and the Smartboard is like the same thing but mainly targeting arm and shoulder. And Smartboard… By the time we have to make this decision, Smartboard was very obvious that people were so wanting it. And Smart Kids, definitely a lot of people, parents and doctors, you know. They were asking for it.

Scott Kim:But, this was a really tough decision for us. It’s like ethically we have to make this. But we ran the numbers and the number really didn’t justify… You know, people say ROI, right? Return on investment. But I don’t know. I don’t know if you guys are parents, but from parent’s perspective and also, you know, I grew up with the special childhood experience, too. And if you actually… I mean, not many people know that there’s a lot of stroke survivors under the age of 10. Kids. And once you meet these guys and once you see the eyes of parents, then this is like… This really becomes an ethical question. And we ended up asking the question, “So who are we, really?”

Scott Kim:Like the number didn’t make sense. But then thinking about those old days and we’re like, “Yeah, even if you ended up failing, it’s like we want to be remembered as somebody who actually give it a shot but didn’t make it.” So, at the end of day, we decide to give it a go and we will worry about the ROI later. But again, like around that time we are starting to make meaningful revenues. So we started it with like, “Go for it.” And yeah, it’s really rewarding experience.

Scott Kim:And I mean you ask, “What are those moments?” And really every time we meet somebody who has a kid who’s dealing with CP or a stroke or a brain injury, it’s like to them there are not many options. But it’s always tricky. It gets tricky because it’s not you. Like you’re not the one who’s doing the rehab. How are you going to convince your seven year old kid, five year old kid, you know, you have to do this? And also, you know, the sooner the better. It’s impossible to actually make your child just like sit down and then do these boring activities, even to adults. Right?

Scott Kim:So we’ve seen so many magical things. The kids who are not able to, you know, use their fingers and they started moving it and they are a lot more engaged with our products. So still this is something that we’re extremely proud of ourselves and probably even more so than Smart Glove because it was the right decision that went really well, I believe.

Dave:Well, where can our listeners learn more about your business and your products?

Scott Kim:Yeah, come down to our website, neofect dot com. N-E-C-

Jeff:Yeah, great website. Sorry, I just cut you off. I want you to throw the URL out there because I’ve just really enjoyed… I’ve spent this whole time listening and cruising through your website. And it’s… I want to order one of those Gloves because it looks really cool just just to have. But sorry I interrupted you. Go ahead and tell us what’s your-

Dave:So let’s see one again. So yeah, tell us where can our listeners go to find out more about your business?

Scott Kim:Oh, yeah, neofect dot com. N-E-O-F-E-C-T. N as in Nancy. And I’ll bring a parent to the No Barriers Summit.

Dave:And as you look out in the future, the next five years, where do you see the business going?

Scott Kim:I feel it trying to go a little beyond the rehabilitation. NeoMano, that’s one of the products that actually helps people actively move their hand and it’s an assistive device. And this is a good example. And just because I doing this for past nine years, we realized that for some people, rehab, rehabilitation, that’s luxury. Because they just completely lost their motion. So we are developing the device that actually helps people being able to move their hand so that they can do basic things like tooth brushing and, you know, opening, closing the door or just holding coffee cup, things like that.

Jeff:Oh, fascinating. I was just… Last week, one of our No Barriers board members, Adrian Anantawan, who is a professional violinist but was born with no arm. He has a small half of an arm on one side and he plays with that half arm. And he was telling me about his new prosthetic device that, as he approaches certain objects in the house, it knows what the object is, like a coffee maker, and it can help move his hand in the appropriate way to go get coffee, ahead of him arriving at it. It’s like a smart hand really. And it sounds like you’re developing something that will really help folks who don’t have the mobility, to then have it, which is exciting.

Jeff:Well, we’re thrilled to have you. So thankful that you were able to join the No Barriers Summit and meet our community there. We look forward to seeing where NEOFECT goes next. Thank you for your time.

Scott Kim:Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Jeff:Thanks, Scott. It was really a pleasure talking to you.

Scott Kim:Yeah, likewise. Thank you.

Dave:Jeff. Great conversation. Again, I love stories of scrappy young entrepreneurs that have $12 in their hand and aren’t sure if the business is going to make it. And then all of a sudden, you know, years later, they have an IPO sale and a hundred and plus million dollar valuation. It’s so exciting to hear those stories. Tell me what resonated for you from this conversation, Jeff?

Jeff:Brave and ignorant. I like brave and ignorant because, yeah, it sounds kind of funny, but it’s true. It’s the willingness to be able to sort of cut those bowlines, right, and just sort of step out. And sometimes it’s blissful ignorance too, that allows people to be innovative. The other thing that I found really interesting was… or I guess the common thread that we continue to hear with all of our guests is there’s typically, whether it’s in your face or not, there’s typically some vestige of youth and some thing that happened in this individual’s growth process as a kid that truly does impact these big innovations or these big pioneering spirits. Scott’s was there, you know… He only touched on it a little bit, but you could tell. It really did impact him wanting to be involved in this and the power of rehabilitation and the potential of rehabilitation and what it could be. So I was… I was really… I’m always fascinated by that. What about you, Dave? What’d you come home with?

Dave:I really, you know… When he was talking about sort of advice for entrepreneurs who are starting new ideas, you know, part of our No Barrier Summit is this idea of garage innovators who start things up because they have just an idea they fully believe in. I think he even said, “It’s a bit cliche.” But it’s really been true in my own life as I’ve started nonprofit businesses. Like, there are points where the thing that gets you through is your undying passion and belief that this thing is going to work. And you’ve got to go to that place in some of your hardest times and find that energy to drive through it. And I think helping individuals get in touch with that passionate place they have, whatever it might be, is really a fuel and an energy source that is something that, at No Barriers, we try to connect people to.

Jeff:Yeah. Yeah. His Innovation Workshop… I know this is going to air afterwards, but I’m sure it’s going to be a home run and was a home run.

Dave:Yeah. Well, another great conversation. Thank you to all of our listeners for joining us. If you enjoyed this conversation, one of the things you can do to help No Barriers is just like the podcast and share it with one other person. We always like our podcast community to grow and the best way to do that is for you to let someone else know about the great conversations we have in this space. As always, you can learn more about No Barriers at no- barriers-U-S-A dot O-R-G.

Dave:You heard us talk multiple times in this conversation about our No Barriers Summit, which is an annual event, June 13th to the 15th. Was in Lake Tahoe. Next year we’ll be in San Francisco. Stay tuned for the dates for that event. Thank you so much.

Jeff:See you next time.

Dave:Thanks to all of you for listening to our podcast. We know that you have a lot of choices about how you can spend your time, and so we appreciate you spending it with us. If you enjoy this podcast, we encourage you to subscribe to it, share it, and give us a review. Show notes can be found at No Barriers podcast dot com. Special thanks to the Dan Ryan Band for our intro song, which is called Guidance. The production team behind this podcast includes producers, Didrik Johnck and Pauline Schaffer, sound design, editing and mixing by Tyler Kottman, graphics by Sam Davis, and marketing support by Karly Sandsmark and Jaime Donnelley. Thanks to all you amazing people for the great work you do.