BioWare - Previews @ Joystiq, MMORPG.com

Originally Posted by Gaxkang
I think the raging is because it's casual and Pay 2 Win, rather than because it's "bad".

I'm willing to bet anything that we'd be getting the same sort of raging even it they had announced a big AAA RPG.

(As a matter of fact, I've seen a fair share of comments on more mainstreams sites where people obviously didn't read what this was about and just started whining it was gonna suck because "It's Bioware and EA!!!")

That being said I don't think the game should be dismissed just because it's a F2P model - I think the approach has much more to offer than what we've seen thus far (altough I do have some concerns about the microtransaction aspects - here's hoping the game can really be completed without paying a dime).

I don't post very often here, mainly because english is not my first language, but I have to add my two cents on the free to play business model.

I work on small mmorpg right now and when we made some research on how to make players pay, you know, we have to get money to pay our bills, we realised that other business models did not work as well. Yeah we could charge an amount, let's say 4,99 $ monthly, but a lot of players will be afraid to commit even one month. Yeah, micro payment sucks, but it is still better then no money at all. So yeah, if companies opted to go that way, imho, it's because players stopped to commit to monthly registration.

Nobody wants to play micro-transaction based F2P MMOs. People want real games. We're sick of this garbage. Pretending the onus is on players to support you when you're making stuff nobody wants is offensive.

Originally Posted by darkling
Stop making shit games, and players will pay for them.

Nobody wants to play micro-transaction based F2P MMOs. People want real games. We're sick of this garbage. Pretending the onus is on players to support you when you're making stuff nobody wants is offensive.

Yeah that's constructive… But I should have foreseen this kind of reply Ooh well… It's like when people complain that there are too many cliche medieval fantasy setting in books or in game, it works that's why writers/filmmakers/game designers are doing it. It's not the players' fault for liking that kind of setting or for being more into the f2p business model, it's the way things are.

As for doing online game, I do believe it is a decent way to make a first game for small and young studio… So no I don't think that going the f2p mmorpg route can only mean it will be a shitty game.

And tell me, why does some of those shitty games became commercial successes if no one want to play them ? By the way, I am fully aware that being a commercially sucessful game is not equal to being a quality game.

But it's allright, I did not want to offend anyone just wanted to offer my point of view…

A Stormy Night you make valid arguments and I can't deny that. To me F2P will never catch on till I can get the same experience as a single player RPG. That hasn't happened yet.

Most not all are designed with the need to buy something just to compete and finish. It's the old carrot and stick cliche. So when I hear the game is completely free the little voice in my head goes bullshit.

Solve those two problems and I wouldn't care what model developers use. At least with a small subscription fee you know that your going to get everything.

The perfect MMO game to me was Guild Wars. Buy the expansions and a few non trivial upgrades if you wanted to that's all. No Nickel and Dimming. Lets not forget you are the hero not just a bystander among thousands. Just like a single player RPG.

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I figured it was constructive, but I'll be more direct: Don't make a F2P MMO. The MMO market is over saturated with garbage. The F2P market is over saturated with garbage. People buy good games still, even if they're weird RPG's. See the positive reaction Grimrock got and it's massive success for an example. The reason players stopped buying MMO's and paying for subs blindly is because they got ripped off a billion times. F2P games are going to fail next, and hard, and all these bad games being held afloat by the F2P fumes are going to vanish. On the other hand, good single player games can last forever. Or at least a few decades, as has been proven time and time again.

Originally Posted by darkling
Just because you're personally invested in F2P game design doesn't mean that my opinion that F2P games are all worthless shit is not valid criticism. I'll make it more constructive, if you insist: Don't make F2P games. Don't nickel and dime players. Don't make an MMO, at all, actually. Do you not see how many MMO's are out there and how they're all pretty much failures other than WoW? MMO's are a void of creativity full of cookie cutter sameness. Why would you want to compete in that world anyhow?

Let's look at Grimrock for an example of an indie RPG success. That's an independent studio's first game, made by a few people who wanted to make a game in an under-represented genre they loved. End result? Massive success. Replicate that success.

I think I see your point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that the "medium" of f2p mmo is shit no matter what. I respectfully disagree. I'm saying there is a logic in buying a cat before trying to raise a tiger and you are saying buy a dog instead, cats are shit. You have every right to say that, but it still has nothing to do with me wanting a cat.

And just for your information, I know you don't care, we are not making a wow clone or anything like that. If anything, we are closer to the settlers and the west… But at the same time, not really…

Edit: yeah I am well aware that we drifted away from the subject of Ultima. And yeah I think it sucks that they choose to do that instead of an Ultima VII +++

Originally Posted by Couchpotato
A Stormy Night you make valid arguments and I can't deny that. To me F2P will never catch on till I can get the same experience as a single player RPG. That hasn't happened yet.

Most not all are designed with the need to buy something just to compete and finish. It's the old carrot and stick cliche. So when I hear the game is completely free the little voice in my head goes bullshit.

Solve those two problems and I wouldn't care what model developers use. At least with a small subscription fee you know that your going to get everything.

The perfect MMO game to me was Guild Wars. Buy the expansions and a few non trivial upgrades if you wanted to that's all. No Nickel and Dimming. Lets not forget you are the hero not just a bystander among thousands. Just like a single player RPG.

I understand your point, but does every game have to give the feeling to the player that he is the hero? Hey, I love single player crpgs but when I try a mmo I want another experience, a collective one. It's not a better or a worse experience, just a different one.

Originally Posted by A Stormy Night
I don't post very often here, mainly because english is not my first language, but I have to add my two cents on the free to play business model.

I work on small mmorpg right now and when we made some research on how to make players pay, you know, we have to get money to pay our bills, we realised that other business models did not work as well. Yeah we could charge an amount, let's say 4,99 $ monthly, but a lot of players will be afraid to commit even one month. Yeah, micro payment sucks, but it is still better then no money at all. So yeah, if companies opted to go that way, imho, it's because players stopped to commit to monthly registration.

Hey Stormy, good luck with your game. I hope it's a success and your team makes a great game.

And for me you hit my number 2 reason why I don't play MMOs. I just hate the idea of paying for the same game each month. I know not all players are like that (World of Warcraft). but for me it just galls me to pay for my game more than once.

So me personally I am not an MMO guy. I am mostly a single player RPG guy.

but I will say this about the micro trans game world. There was this MMO cartoon golf game a few years back that I was intensely addicted to. It was free to play but if you wanted some fancy clothes to sport on the range you had to pay for the clothing upgrade. At first it was silly and I just played played played . . for free. But as I got better, I wanted to stand out from the crowd and to my surprise I started buying the hats and the shoes and the pants and the what nots. It wasn't anywhere close to even remotely expensive but I did pay. If the developer does it right, people will pay if the game is good and the items are reasonably priced. Good luck with that.

OTH, I think it is the idea of a micro trans ULTIMA that has even the most generous of spirit a little concerned.

BTW, my number one reason for not doing MMOs is I game when I want to game instead of dealing with everybody playing schedule.

Originally Posted by A Stormy Night
I understand your point, but does every game have to give the feeling to the player that he is the hero? Hey, I love single player crpgs but when I try a mmo I want another experience, a collective one. It's not a better or a worse experience, just a different one.

To me yes. I play to be the hero or the focal point of the story. I find no enjoyment in being clone number 9999999. Hate to say but Bioware almost succeed in getting it right.

But yeah to each there own but like I said till it changes I'm not interested. I'm also sure there are others like me out there.

— RPGWatchSenior News Editor & Moderator

"I Am a Proud BioWare Fanboy, and Have Been One for Fifteen Years."Paypal Donation Link - If you like my work please donate.

BTW, my number one reason for not doing MMOs is I game when I want to game instead of dealing with everybody playing schedule.

Thanks for your support, I just wanted to answer to that specific point. What we are trying to do, and yes maybe it answers some of Couchpotato's points, is to give every users the possibility to play the way they want (yeah you've heard it before and you will keep hearing it, sorry for the cliche). If you want to be a lonewolf warrior, weaponsmith or an alchemist, you can, of course there is thing you won't be able to fully experience like being a soldier in an army, but you will still be able to do your things without having to play with others. Yeah the game is collective but there is place for loners in our game world. In example, our storied quests are essentially solitary, a bit like King Arthur's mini quests.

Anyway, I should stop talking about our game, I just wanted to say there is a reason some game studios choose a business model and not another one and this does not mean that it will be a poor game. Diversity is what make the world great after all.

In most(not all) F2P MMOs I tried, seen or heard of F2P=Pay2Win.I don't know if this is true for this game but since this is EA and Bioware we are talking about I somehow doubt this will be any different.I will just wait for feedback from watch members before considering this game.

There are many MMOs out there that are F2P without having P2W - but it depends on what you mean by winning, of course. Several don't have any competitive elements - so it's hard to see what you're winning, exactly.

But the F2P aspect of this game is far from the thing that makes it a dud on arrival.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
There are many MMOs out there that are F2P without having P2W - but it depends on what you mean by winning, of course.

Well in PvE there is usually lot of grinding for none paying players.Don't get me wrong I don't mind spending money on game but I prefer either buy game or pay monthly subscription(or both) and have game that is balanced for all.

Originally Posted by Nameless one
Well in PvE there is usually lot of grinding for none paying players.Don't get me wrong I don't mind spending money on game but I prefer either buy game or pay monthly subscription(or both) and have game that is balanced for all.

Honestly, if the gameplay feels like grinding - then what victory is achieved by skipping some grinding so you can get to grinding something else?

However, I hate and despise the F2P concept - like I hate and despise the concept of capitalism. Not because it can't work - or that it has never worked. But because of how human nature responds when faced with such opportunities.

Originally Posted by A Stormy Night
I just wanted to say there is a reason some game studios choose a business model and not another one and this does not mean that it will be a poor game.

If a restaurant charges me $2 for a meal and $50 for one hour 'cutlery lease', that does not mean that the meal is bad. Nevertheless I won't eat at that restaurant.

Pay 2 Win is a concept born of a downward spiral. It's because we're getting uninnovative, bland, soulless games that people are reluctant to pay $60 for a game they increasingly often won't like. So to get people to play, developers have to lie by saying a game is "free", and then micro-transacting gamers into paying >$70. If the game was good it would be able to get $60 upfront for the uncut experience, based on merit (word of mouth).

I fear hat younger generations will come to believe "this is the REAL Ultima !!! Not this shit from the 80s !!!" or something like that. - Simply because they've been grown up with it and never learned it otherwise.

To me, it's a kind of training.

It's like learning driving cars in the first place and never learning that one can drive bicycles, too.

— “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)