Moriarty Bombards Simon Kinberg's FANTASTIC FOUR Script With Gamma Rays, But It's Still Not Super!!

First, before I even begin, let me apologize for the delay on this one. I never meant to tease you for two weeks. One thing I’m sure of now is that this is still a work-in-progress, so this isn’t the final set-in-stone shooting draft, and it’s important you remember that. Hell, it’s important I remember that so I don’t get all hyperbolic about certain things. I’m not sure if they’ve got anyone on-set in Vancouver right now working on the script, but it’s definitely been a fairly fluid document these last few months.

Mark Frost’s earlier draft set off a fair amount of controversy when fans heard some of the story and character details, and I know of at least one writing team that worked on it after that. Simon Kinberg appears to be the guy who got it across the finish line, though. He’s been a busy guy lately. Doug Liman’s finally finished shooting his spy thriller MR. AND MRS. SMITH, and Lee Tamahori’s in the middle of shooting XXX2: STATE OF THE UNION right now. I’ve read the Ice Cube sequel, and it’s a much better script than the original, with great roles for Cube, Sam Jackson, and Willem Dafoe. I totally get why Kinberg’s the go-to guy at the moment. He writes smart action and strong characters. Makes perfect sense, then, to put him on FANTASTIC FOUR.

And if you’re worried about Avi Arad’s comments that the film is a “family comedy,” you should relax. There is some very funny interplay between the characters, but this isn’t meant to be a joke. There’s a fair amount of reinvention involved, but it still feels true to the spirit I always enjoyed about the comics while growing up. I’ve never been the most avid reader of the series, but I’ve enjoyed it on and off over the years, and in a way, I’ve always thought of this as one of the crown jewels of the Marvel Film properties. It seems so simple, such an easy sell. Tone is important, though, and I’ll give Marvel credit for taking their time to work toward getting it right instead of just rushing something into production.

So... all that preface aside... how’s the script?

This is a more intimate origin story than, say, X-MEN. Juggling multiple characters with personalities this strong can be tricky, especially when you’re also trying to build a world-threatening scenario to challenge them. The solution they’ve come up with here is to tie in the film’s primary threat to the origin of the FF, and the way they’ve done it might work for mainstream audiences even as it makes the most ardent purist fanboys absolutely bugshit. On the first page of the 118-page draft, one visual image sets up the relationship that defines the whole film:

”EXT. MANHATTAN SKYLINE - DAY

”Familiar skyscrapers fill the frame, except for TWO rising high above the rest. On either side of CENTRAL PARK:

THE BAXTER BUILDING rises high on the WEST SIDE. THE LATVERIA TOWER rises directly across the park, on the EAST SIDE. Baxter is a sleek and beautiful shimmering silver. Latveria is an odd mix of stone and steel, making it look like a combination of a skyscraper and a medieval CASTLE.”

BEN GRIMM and REED RICHARDS are visiting the headquarters of Latveria Industries, figurative hats in hand. Latveria’s an enormously successful superconglomerate with interests in space stations, nuclear power, and military contracts. Reed’s looking for support for a major scientific endeavor, a proposed study of a cosmic storm that may have been one of the key triggers of evolution on Earth. Reed makes his case to the head of Latveria Industries, VICTOR VON DOOM. And, yes, it’s Von Doom now. Not Van Damn. It’s obvious that he’s got history of some sort with both Reed and Ben, but they’re willing to swallow their pride and set aside old differences in the name of science. Von Doom seems to take particular pleasure in goading the two of them, especially once he realizes it’s not money they’ve come for. They just want his space station, and Reed offers up total financial control over any practical commercial applications that may arise from the trip and the research they do.

The history between them becomes quite clear when SUE STORM enters the office. Reed’s ex, she is now working for Von Doom, and dating him as well. Von Doom agrees to the experiment, but instead of letting Ben pilot the shuttle, Latveria insists on using their own pilot. Enter JOHNNY STORM, Sue’s younger brother, who used to serve as a junior officer under Ben’s command at NASA. There’s a great sense of antagonistic play between them from the moment Johny is introduced, one of the things they got the most right in the whole script. Once the entire principal cast is introduced, they’re out of Earth’s atmosphere by page eleven.

The next ten pages onboard the space station are dense with characterization and action. Von Doom joins them on the mission, so when the cosmic storm hits, they all get stuck in it, even as Von Doom tries to abandon the others to their fate. He’s in one place when the cosmic rays reach them, while everyone else is onboard the station, and they all end up getting dosed in different ways. This sort of reminds me of the way JJ Abrams wanted to make Lex Luthor a Kryptonian with super-powers to match Superman’s, but just dosing Von Doom with cosmic rays didn’t strike me as a deal-breaker.

Back on Earth, Reed, Sue, Johnny, and Ben are all put under quarantine at a military facility, locked down completely until it can be determined if anything has happened to them. They look fine at first. All their tests seem okay. The scene where Ben, who took the worst of it, wakes up for the first time is a great example of the way Johnny loves to torture him. Von Doom, who returned to earth in an emergency shuttle, is missing, presumed dead. Sue turns to Reed, which makes sense. They all turn to Reed, actually, expecting him to somehow sort everything out. Over the next ten pages or so, their powers begin to assert themselves, a little at a time. Reed, Sue, and Johnny all get together to compare the reactions they’re having. When they go to see how Ben is, the door to his hospital room is locked, and they hear terrible sounds from inside. When they try to get in, Ben smashes out the wall of the room and runs.

”Ben steps into the light, where we see him FOR THE FIRST TIME: he’s HUGE, easily twice the size he once was, and AN ORANGY ROCKY SURFACE COVERS HIS ENTIRE BODY.”

He makes his way to the Brooklyn Bridge, attracting the attention of the police and the military. He plans to kill himself, unwilling to face life as a monster, fuelled by Debbie’s total rejection of him. What really makes this sequence great is the way it’s not about some big evil bad guy. They don’t leap right into being superheroes. Instead, they act because they want to save a friend in distress. It’s a realistic escalation of completely unrealistic circumstances, and it serves beautifully to draw the four of them together. Even in the midst of a tense action scene, there’s some great character humor. Finally, at the top of page 44, with the four of them united as a unit, Reed swears to them that he won’t rest until he changes them all back.

So far, so good, right?

I mean, sure, they’ve refigured some of the major details of the piece, but the way it works seems to really nail the most important thing about FANTASTIC FOUR... the relationships. Because of that, I am more than willing to roll with the changes.

But let’s talk about Dr. Doom.

I want to believe this could work. For one thing, I’m a big fan of the casting. Julian McMahon’s giving one of my favorite current TV performances on NIP/TUCK (right up there with Dominic West on THE WIRE and James Gandolfini on THE SOPRANOS), so I’m glad to see him cast in such a high-profile role. After all, Dr. Doom’s one of the most iconic villains in the entire Marvel line-up. When I was a kid, I loved seeing him show up in all the different series to torment the various Marvel heroes. He was like Lex Luthor, but with a groovier wardrobe, an all-purpose megalomaniac. With STAR WARS: REVENGE OF THE SITH coming out next summer, I’ll bet Fox and Marvel were at least a little worried about having a bad guy dressed in armor, so I can understand a bit of redesign or reinterpretation. Still, you’d think they would want to make him at least vaguely recognizable... right?

From the moment he’s reintroduced on page 44 of the script, though, Doom gives me angst. There’s something wrong with his face, something we don’t see in that first scene. He wraps himself in a green blanket (get it?) and heads into a nearby town, where he freaks out in a diner, revealing that he has super-strength and that he’s covered now with patches of strange organic armor that’s spreading like a virus. Streaks of it, at first, but enough to make him freakishly strong and give him the power to shoot electricity out of his hands. He sees a news report about Reed, Sue, Johnny, and Ben, who have been dubbed “The Fantastic Four” by the media. This makes him freak out even more, and he steals a motorcycle to head back to the city. Which raises my first question. Here’s a guy who is the head of a multi-billion dollar company. Sure, he’s a bit of a creep at the start of the film, but he must have some redeeming qualities. After all, he’s Sue’s boyfriend, isn’t he? And he’s obviously got the acumen to negotiate all the deals that built his empire, right? So why is it that the moment he wakes up disfigured, he starts acting like a supervillain? Why does he have to steal the motorcycle? Why doesn’t he call someone who works for him? While the Fantastic Four work to figure out their powers and what they should do with them, even as the media goes crazy for them, Von Doom returns to Latveria Industries. Again, no one seems to work in his building, and he has to smash his way in. It’s all very dramatic, but it doesn’t make a lick of sense.

It also doesn’t make sense the way the script turns them into media darlings after just that one incident on the bridge. We never really see them being heroes after that. Sure, they saved some lives in that first big scene, but they also created the situation. Suddenly, they’re on every magazine cover and Johnny’s doing LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O’BRIEN and they’re getting bags of fan mail. Why? I’ve always enjoyed the celebrity nature of the characters. It sets them apart from the rest of the Marvel heroes. It wasn’t an instant thing, though. They had to earn it, and they don’t in this script. Still, the stuff between the characters works well enough to hold it all together. Ben struggles with his new identity as The Thing, and his developing relationship with Alicia Masters is one of the best things about the script. I have a feeling Michael Chiklis is going to walk away with the film, and I’m eager for my first glimpse of Spectral Motion’s design for the character.

Page 70 is where Von Doom finally comes back into contact with the Fantastic Four, setting his endgame in motion, and I’ll speak in general terms so I don’t ruin any plot details. I like the idea that the film’s central crisis is so personal, so specific to the characters and what they’re going through. But by the time the script reached its climax, I genuinely hated Dr. Doom. And not in the “Ooooh, what a deliciously evil villain” way either, but more in the “Oh, fuck, what a weak rehash of all the most shallow and predictable traits of bad movie villains” way. Keep in mind... I’m firmly in the “Make Mine Marvel” camp. I unabashedly enjoy DAREDEVIL, THE HULK, and THE PUNISHER. That’s why this script concerns me so far. As good as parts of it are, there are some pretty epic miscalculations involved, and it feels like the first time with any of these films where they just didn’t crack it. Now they’re locked into a release date and they’re on location and shooting and I’m not sure how they can fix the fundamental problems they face. I want to believe that Tim Story and Avi Arad and Kevin Feige and everyone at Fox know what they’re doing and how to make that third act work on film. I want to believe that Dr. Doom isn’t going to turn into an embarrassment, and that Julian McMahon’s going to be able to turn this stock character into something memorable. I want to believe that the film’s structural weaknesses can be overcome by energy and a good cast and the right design team.

But most of all, when I sit in that theater and look up at that screen and watch the Human Torch and the Invisible Girl and Mr. Fantastic and The Thing in action... well... damn it... I want to believe.

I’ve got a review of ALFIE, my DVD column, looks at two of this year’s Oscar hopefuls, a few Coax pieces, a review of Sophia Coppola’s MARIE ANTOINETTE script, and much more on tap for the next ten days or so. Until then...

I too want to believe. They've assembled a solid cast and there is still time to shape the script. I'm real glad that there is no character named Victor Van Damn, though. That little tidbit gave me a bad case of the chills.

Making The Green Goblin's costume look like a Power Ranger Villan was not that great of an idead,but that movie is now the bench mark on how super hero movies should be made.I guess this script pisses me off because it sounds like it dosn't have an original idea atleast in what he reviewed. I want Doctor Doom to be a cross between Lex Luthor and Darth Vador,he's like the main reason the Fantastic Four have to exsist.I guess they'll make a sequel with main villan being a guy named Gil Lactus who is an evil senator from New York who wants to become president until a horrible accident leaves him with super strength,his partner.......you guessed it Silvio Surfer.

SIn CIty, Batman, revenge of the jedi, elektra and fantastik 4 are all gonna suck.
That much pure suckage at once will create a vaccum that will eat up all hope for anymore good superhero films. Maybe blade trinity and superman will be good. BUt X3 is as good as dead without singer. Say good bye to superhero movies kids.

SIn CIty, Batman, revenge of the jedi, elektra and fantastik 4 are all gonna suck.
That much pure suckage at once will create a vaccum that will eat up all hope for anymore good superhero films. Maybe blade trinity and superman will be good. BUt X3 is as good as dead without singer. Say good bye to superhero movies kids.

Because it was torn between 2 movies. Ang Lee wanted it to be a tragic, Frankenstein-esque story about a man who becomes an indestructible monster. If this is the movie he wants to make, then why put in a horrendously over-the-top Hulk VS supervillain climax? It should have ended American Werewolf in London/King Kong style, with the military finally tracking Banner down and killing him... Why crowbar in a superhero element into a film where it doesnt belong? I'm all for them doing a full on superhero Hulk 2, but that wasnt the movie Hulk 1 was trying to be...

Yeah, yeah -- "Taxi" has not been unleashed (when it is, ushers will have to spray that odor-eliminating shit in the theater from its stink), but just from the trailer one has to agree that Fallon and Queen Laqueefah aren't the only smelly elements. Story's eye is shabby. Look at the trailer. Look at "Barbershop." I'd rather give Todd Solondz a chance at directing a tentpole release before Story. /// As a "Shield" fan, I already feel sorry for Chiklis already.

I've enjoyed the Marvel movies. 'Hulk' may have been dull, and flawed for some people, but it was still a noble effort. Heck, even 'Howard The Duck' was fun despite having been widely know as a huge flop. Here's hoping that the cahnges made for the 'Fantastic Four' will help make it less cheasy, and more interesting.

We live in a world where Paris Hilton, who has done nothing other than be rich and bone a bunch of other celebs, is one of the most famous people in existence. As if you have to ask why a man who is able to elongate his body at will, a chick who can disappear, and a living fireball saving a humungous dude made of orange rock from jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge would make the headlines. Assuming this isn't explicitly set in the same universe as Spider-Man and X-Men (and seeing as none of the Marvel movies have so far made any reference to one another's existence I don't see why it would be) I'd say that's a rather pointless, if not incredibly stupid, question. Hell, if I was Johnny Storm I'd expect nothing *less* than an appearance on Letterman or whatever, and if it happened in real life I'd certainly want to hear about it. Not that I'm sticking up for this script - I must say I'm fairly unimpressed by the changes they've made. They're saying it would be hard to swallow Dr. Doom as the dictator of a fictional eastern European state, but we're supposed to be happy about the notion of a multi-billionaire businessman who decides to go on a random space mission with a bunch of people he doesn't like and brings his girlfriend along? And then goes into hiding when he gets back, even before his mutation kicks in? Get. Fucked.

Why the fuck are they changing one of the funnest Marvel villains!!?!!!! Goddamit, Darth Vader looked cheesy, if they'd let that stop them in '77 we wouldn't even have that icon! I can't believe they're STILL ruining the part of the Fantastic Four movie that I was most looking forward to seeing on the big screen.

Better than the lazy direction of Sam Raimi and horrible visual style of Bryan Singer. 2 directors who get praise for mediocre films. Punisher had the misfortune of casting John Travolta. Tom Jane was good and a sequel with better direction would benefit it. It also did not have enough action. Even the Dolph Lundgren Punisher had more action. But it also had two disturbing ass shots. Daredevil gets crapped on but it was decent. It shouldn't have tried that Spiderman acrobatic crap. Or put too many storylines into one film. As for the future? FF will suck, but I think it's a kids film now so it may do well. X3 would be good with Proyas directing. Elektra looks better than Daredevil and Bowman gave it a cool visual look. And of course I am hoping for Blade Trinity. Please let that film be good.

Moriarty, are you kidding me? You actually think it would make the script better if Dr. Doom, a confused, pissed-off, freshly-disfigured multi-quadrillionaire made a PHONE CALL to get a motorcycle to ride back to the city?? Seriously, are you joking?? Don't you see how absolutely ridiculous that is? In his crazed state, it would be totally believable that he steals the motorcycle. There are parts of the script that concern me a heck of a lot more than that one. But since I'm not in a position to make the movie myself, I'll wait to see what they do with it before claiming I'll never see the movie. I'm more open-minded than that. In fact, I don't see myself NOT seeing this movie, no matter HOW terrible it's supposed to be. Time will tell, though. Maybe it'll turn out just fine.

...but the script seems promising and realistic. The comic seemed over-the-top and this script seems like a fair compromise. Plus, anyone who displays unique superpowers in a world without superheros would become instant celebs...hell, in this celebrity culture even reality show contestants become overnight sensations. Seems fair so far...we'll see

1.) Comic fans are the base of any comic book movie. 2.) The Marvel characters who have survived and flourished over the years have done so because they are great stories. 3.) Therefore, DO NOT MESS WITH THE ESTABLISHED CHARACTERS. You are not better than something that has lasted for decades and is beloved by millions. Sure you can update it a bit, but you are not better. DON'T SAY, "WOULDN'T IT BE BETTER IF... 4.) It sounds like things are getting better...because they are getting closer to the source material. If it's an otherwise great movie, we'll forgive little things like organic web shooters vs. mechanical. But, don't fucking ruin one of the greatest villians ever in comics, Dr. Doom. He didn't go up into space with the FF. He wears armor. He, in addition to being Reed's equal in scientific genius, is into the mystical. 5.) Last but most important, REMEMBER CATWOMAN! WE, COMIC FANS, DESTROYED YOUR MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF INVESTMENT EVEN THOUGH YOU THOUGHT YOUR OSCAR WINNER (who looked freaking hot I must say) COULD SAVE YOU BECAUSE YOU STRAYED AND THUS BETRAYED THE SOURCE MATERIAL. YOU TRIED TO RUIN SOMETHING, A TRADITION, THAT WE HOLD DEAR. BUT WE RUINED YOU AND YOUR INVESTMENT. DO NOT STRAY TOO FAR FROM THE SOURCE MATERIAL OR YOUR BASE, YOUR FOUNDATION FORMED FROM DECADES OF A BELOVED TRADITION, WILL RUIN THIS FILM BEFORE IT EVER HAS A CHANCE! HA! REMEMBER THAT, SUITS. YOU ARE NOT STAN LEE. YOU HAVE NOT BUILT A TRADITION BASED ON A GREAT STORY. SO IF YOU'RE NOT BETTER, THEN THE BEST YOU CAN DO IT TO BE TRUE TO THE MATERIAL!!!

While we're re-writing comic book history, Reed will probably be a non-violent, passive, dolphin safe eating tuna hero while Sue will have her tuna eating done by Prince Namor himself. Maybe even have Doc Doom jump in and pull a train on her while Reed watches, with full approval of Mr. Not-So- Fantastic himself. After all, this is the norm to take something that is classic and fuck it up. Plato, Aristotle, Mitchell, Conrad, Verne, Poe, Melville, Dickens, Dostoevsky, Wells, I mean, they really sucked as writers and I'm sure some cheese-eating Sega Boy is a much better writer then they could ever be. What made the comics of the silver age great is that Kirby, Lee and the Marvel gang drew their inspirations from the classics. Stories that were timeless. This script sounds like 3rd rate soap opera on cable access.

Reading Moriarty's synopsis of the Fantastic Four script was like being kicked in the balls. Everything about this movie indicates that it will be a major suckfest. I started to worry when I heard a director with absolutely no experience with big-budget, special FX laden films was going to helm it. Then the cast was announced and I really began to have serious doubts about the film. Now the storyline has been revealed, and I don't know whether to laugh or cry? I could cry because they have managed to screw up adapting Jack "King" Kirby's greatest comic book work (and my personal favorite comic book characters) to the big screen. Or I can simply laugh because Roger Corman was able to get it right for far less money. I can now say without a doubt that this movie will be DOA - Disaster On Arrival.

...badboymason. If they'd done away with some of the Creepshow-esque comic book editing tricks and the ridiculous Nick Nolte as Absorbing Man/ZZaxxx ending, The HUlk could've taken a comic book hero completely mainstream and opened up a fanboy door, bringing horror/sci-fi purists into Marvel's camp. In fact, they could've done your ending (love American Werewolf as analogy, by the way) and still left the door open for a sequel by having Banner's virtually cancerous regenerative capabilities bring him back to life instead of showing him bearded in South America. Opportunity missed. As it stands, its a schizophrenically distracting and mildly entertaining film at best. As for this FF script, I'm okay with everything they've done except for Doom being superhuman. That's just stupid. Doom is like the evil Batman... he earned every bit of power he's got the old fashioned way, by studying and practicing. He's the icon all aspiring little evil doers out there just like Batman is the role model for would be dissociative vigilantes. "Eat your vegetables, Billy. Study your physics and the Necronomicon and someday you, too, can curse that blasted Richards for his infernal meddling." Chiklis as The Thing will be worth a matinee ticket even if Doom isn't repaired, but it will make all the difference between that and me seeing the film more than once much less buying it on DVD.

I know I speak for a the majority of the internet community when I say this but what we really want is some sex in these kiddie friendly comic book adaptations, preferably some hot homosexual action. Changes to Dr. Doom's origin is secondary to seeing Julian McMahon's cock and balls on the cinema screen, because I for one am sick of him teasing us everytime I see his (fantastic) ass on Nip/Tuck. Mr. Fantastic and Dr. Doom should just iron out their difficulties by having some rough, passionate sex rather than grappling in some skin tight latex or body-hugging leather, in fact if Dr. Doom's skin turns into armour keep him naked throughout the movie. Don't forget about Michael Chiklis, what a dreamboat, but for the love of god keep Alba invisible throughout the movie. Deliver this and the fanboy market will be in your pocket forever. DON'T DISAPPOINT US.

It sounds like they've retained the most important elements...the Thing's battle with himself...the celebrity aspect of it...the competition between Reed and Doom...and the family aspect. What's everyone's problem? The fact that Latveria is a corporation and not a country? It's a logical update. That Doom's skin becomes metal and not just a suit of armor? Could make for a good visual update.
Keep an open mind. I've been a diehard fan for years, but I can deal with it. I mean, heck...they've made changes in almost every Marvel movie...some small, some big...but they still come out on top. I know that I haven't been disappointed yet...I love X-Men, X2, Blade, Blade II, Daredevil, Hulk, Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2...the Punisher was even okay for what it was...

I've been an FF fan since I was a kid in the 70s, and probably feel more attached to that particular property than any other comic. That having been said, I have no problem with either the actors (Chiklis even having been on my wish list) or the proposed tone of the film. In fact, everything seems to be on track -- except Doom. Here you have the coolest comic book villain in the universe and they can't get one fucking thing right about him (except MacMahon). How is it better drama to have him go boi-oi-oing from a dose of cosmic rays rather than his blaming of Reed for his disfigurement after a scientific experiment? The whole purpose of his armored mask was to hide his "ruined" face. Having the thing grow on him while driving him nuts is making the armor part of the REASON for his madness instead of a SYMPTOM of it. That just sucks in so many more ways than I care to count. And how weak is it to have him as some sort of corporate tycoon? The cool thing about the monarch of Latveria was that you had this miniscule country that no other nation in the world dared touch because of the devious technological/mystical weapons of mass destruction Doom had created. Call me a whiny fanboy, but that sounds like an immeasurably cooler villain than an angry industrialist with a skin condition. Oh, and having him wrapping himself in a green towel as an "homage" to the classic comic image is nothing but an insult. Fuck the idiots who mangled the genius of Dr. Doom -- fuck them right up their public-surveying, comic-hating, pimplefaced-pothead-catering, no-talent, scum-sucking, coke-snorting, mammon-worshipping, illiterate asses.

then the whole movie will suck! If he's the typical 2-dimensional villain, then it's gonna suck ass. The little tweaks to the origin stories are OK with me, but Doom just seems like he picked the short straw in the group.
I can even go with the whole Latveria Industries thing. It will immediately bring up thoughts of Norman Osbourne, but it's still a good position to put doom in.
So, to put it simply, if this villain sucks ass, then I want my money back. The villain has to be a guy you love to hate, not just plain hate.
And by the way, Moriarity, you actually liked Punisher? Even the whole scene where Castle's family gets wasted? And you don't like this FF script? Come on!

If I had my druthers I'd rather see them earn their PR as well, but that's not so much of a big deal. The rest of what you've reported sounds encouraging, although Doom sounds like a bit of a trouble spot. You're exactly right, Moriarty: Sue is/was his girlfriend. Unless she doesn't respect herself, he's got to have some redeeming quality to him, however slight (I understand that maybe he was the first piece of meat that came along after Reed, but again, dating a complete bastard is asking a lot). The think tank behind 'FF' also probably could have found a better way to establish his villainy than by having him freak out in a diner, shoot some bolts out of his fingertips (which was also a dumb and superfluous idea; don't even disrespect the comics if you "improve upon" their integrity by giving Doom lightning fingers), and steal a motorcycle. Without actually having read the script -- so maybe this wouldn't have worked -- I think getting back to Latveria like a normal person and experiencing a breakdown (physiological, mental, emotional) there would have been the better route for his character to go down, although it's probably asking too much to hope that the story's changed to read more like that since Kinberg's and the shooting draft. I can only imagine what exactly goes down in the Third Act, but here's hoping that, at least, has been fine-tuned. I think 'Daredevil' and 'The Punisher' have redeeming qualities, but if you're more jittery about this than either of those, I'm worried; then again, it thrills me to no end to hear that they've struck the right chord with the intra-familial relationships. Perhaps it's because of lowered expectations, but I think that Marvel's goodwill might experience a boon of sorts after the potential pleasant surprises of 'Elektra' and 'FF' come out next year. Well, I guess that about wraps it up, but since this is a MARVEL-related post, I still have one more thing to say: "Don't you dare let Mark Steven Johnson direct 'GHOST RIDER,' you crazy bastards! Don't you dare! Nooooooooooooo!" How many times must I beg? Some of the shots in 'Daredevil' were pretty, but come on: a sea full of directors who would jump at the chance to lens and you get Mark Steven frickin' Johnson. By the way, I hear he wrote a very good script. That's nice. Now "protect" it by keeping him away from it.

lame...lame...lame...they are needlessly changing the name and everything else about the character. They are not making a Fantastic Four movie..they are making something different and just using a lot of FF elements to get the fanboys money as well...count me out.

I am sick of them cocking this stuff up. Really. How hard would it be to have Doom's armour created and shot in such a way that it looked menacing? It doesn't have to look "cheesy". And what's the bet that at some point Reed gives someone the finger, and it stretches...

It is one thing to take some liberties with these stories. In X-Men, they had the origins generally right and the characters generally right and tooks some creative liberties with the costumes. They took liberties with the origin of the Hulk because it would not be normal for the US to create a Gamma Bomb today. This Fantastic Four script does not take liberties. It changes the entire concept of the book. Dr. Doom runs a country. He is a diplomatic emmisary. Not a corporate shmuck. That is a huge liberty to take. Him running a country was a big deal in the books. Sue being his girlfriend?!? Doom going up to a space station with the FF?!? This movie sounds like the Fooktastic Four. I think if it is going to be this bad, just dump Johnny Storm and put Herbie in his place. Listen, just make Doom the ruler of Latvia and don't have him go into space and things will be okay.
The Belt Has Spoken!

I think HULK really captured the feel of having so much power that nothing that could stop him. I always was a hulk fan growing up, and I wanted a movie where I could put myself in Hulk's shoes (or lack of) while he was wrestling with a chopper and jumping three miles at a time. I think Ang Lee did a great job. Sure it wasn't as fun and campy as Spiderman, but when has Hulk ever been? I might be interested in a sequel if Ang Lee signed on again.

These movie adaptations always botch the origin story (which is always the least interesting part of the mythos--usually, it's just some kind of industrial accident), and the franchise collapses before we can get to the interesting stuff (the Negative Zone, the Watcher, the Mole Man, the Kree sentinal, Agatha Harkness, Diablo, Klaw-The Master Of Sound, on and on, right up to the big two: Galactus and the Silver Surfer). Too bad we'll never see them.

First of all, I'd be pretty damn surprised if either Silver Surfer or Galactus showed up in a Fantastic Four movie before a movie about the Silver Surfer hisself was released; both properties are owned by Fox, so there's easily manageable crossover potential, at least, but that's my take on the situation. Depending on how well this movie fares, it might be easier to get 'Silver Surfer' off the ground than another FF anyway (a flop demanding a retooling of the story). As for Latveria, I certainly wouldn't have minded seeing Doom own a country, if they pulled it off right, but making him into an imperious, faux-Shakespearean company owner is, as someone else pointed out, a logical progression, and one that's easier to sell to the audience at that.

It sounds like this story is so completely different than the original, they only kept some basic ideas of the original story....didn't they learn from Catwoman and the Hulk that fans want to see the original material.....this sounds truly terrible.....Johnny is the pilot, Doom on the plane with them, Doom with powers, Sue with Doom?????? Who the hell is Debbie? What happened to blind Alicia???? This is so truly terrible, I think that the Roger Corman piece will be the better version of the two. Why can't they just use the original story?? You can't tell me this story works better than the original.....really, all this shows is bad writing...

And I'm one of its biggest proponents on talkback. I do think that it's criminally underrated, but it does indeed have some pretty fatal flaws (or maybe I didn't "get" it, but I'm willing to discuss). Although 'Spider-Man 2' is less abstract in terms of narrative, that's not a shortcoming, last time I checked. 'Superman' was a little before my heyday, and I've never been much of a DC man, so Spidey gets my vote in that regard. ********** On another note, sort of, it looks like they're going to pit the Four and Doom together until the whole thing crescendoes and Doom either dies or is left for dead, as per usual of comic movies these days. Say what you will about 'X-Men' (and why would you want to?), but one thing they absolutely got right was respecting Magneto (and their audience) enough to not kill him off in the first one.

Look, it's like this: In Spider-Man, they gave the Green Goblin, who DOESN'T wear high-tech armor in the comic, a suit of high-tech green armor to avoid having him seem like a rehash of the Joker (which he really is, anyway). So when Doom comes around, the powers-that-be feel that they can't have another arch-villain wearing high-tech armor (and green) and so they have to mess up this character, too. This all goes back to Batman (1989). Jack Nicholson's Joker acted more like the Green Goblin than the Joker, so the Green Goblin was more like Dr. Doom, so Dr. Doom has to be more like Doomsday (organic armor plates growing on his body? Super strength?) so when they finally make a Superman movie with Doomsday, he'll be more like Aquaman or something. It's a never-ending cycle. The studio wants to avoid having characters with the same powers and appearance as the last movie, but the last movie altered IT'S character for the same reasons. If they had all just stayed loyal to the source material, then we'd have had a skinny Joker who didn't die and wasn't Bruce Wayne's parents' murderer, we'd have had a Green Goblin wearing a halloween mask and shooting sparkles from his fingers, and we'd have a Dr. Doom who doesn't ride in a spaceship with Reed, doesn't grow chitinous space armor, and doesn't act like Darkman. Finally, we'd have an Electra who doesn't look like a cheerleader with a horse face, a Hulk that doesn't have two hours of bad exposition, and a Daredevil that doesn't murder people while dressed in leather bondage gear. Oh yeah, and we'd have a catwoman who actually resembles Catwoman.

maybe VonDoom, a child of immigrants, struck his fortune and sets up shop in Eastern Europe.. and it is there that Reed and Ben must go to get the funding...
but... "Organic Armor"? If VonDoom is so rich, he could easily have some prototype battlesuit/environmental suit that could fit the bill, protecting his seared flesh from further damage...

For this movie to work Doom also had to work and I can't believe they are so unabashedly destroying the character. This isn't just any old supervillian. This is THE supervillain. Maybe the most dangerous man in the entire Marvel Universe. He's jsut as much a part of the Fantastic Four lore as the actual Fantastic Four is and just as integral to the story. If anything I think it would be more ok to do some screwing with the Four than with Doom. He is an infinitely more interesting character than anyone on the actual team. So since they are being douche bags and changing him for no decipherable reason I won't be seeing this and I would suggest all of you join me. Fuck these assholes needlessly changing established and rich characters who already have enough backstory and character for 100 movies. Let's do soemthing about it starting with this.

Fox I would suggest changing this before the early buzz the internet community creates buries the film. Maybe you could still turn a profit on DVD and merchendising sales but it would be peanuts compared to what you could do if you get the character of Dr. Doom done right. Your choice Fox, you can either make a lot of money or you can flop. It's a very simple choice. Make the Doom we want to see or else. Things to change: Doom is a genius, arguably the most intelligent man on the planet even above Reed Richards. Doom is not on the ship with them. Doom is a guy in a suit not a fucking mutation. He built the suit and all his technology because he is insanely fucking intelligent, see previous thing to change.(this is the most important change that needs to be made.) Doom is a despot not just some arrogant CEO, even if he isn't a dictator yet make him a duke or some shit at this early point just to appease us. It's as simple a slipping a few lines into the script. And there you have it FOx.

I just see no need to alter doom. It makes no sense. Why give this man superpowers?? I could live with Doom being on the space flight or station, him and Sue an item, him a corporate tycoon, but not the Superpowers, nooooooooooooooooooooo. Doom is great because of his mind, who's bright idea was it to give him powers. He appears to be covered in what looks like organic steel, and he can shoot eletricity out of his hands? Jeez give me a phucking break. Here's hoping they fix the script, but i doubt it.

Ist off the script doesn't sound totally bad or suck or whatever, but I do feel that Doom is horriably wrong. Doom is the greatest comic villian of all time in my opinion, and like Chris Columbus said, Doom's plans has to be world shattering, you can't have this man doning anything, he's not your common stock villian. Doom would never bust up a diner and steal a damn motor bike, where in the hell did they get that from. If Doom is presumed missing, maybe dead, then he wouldn't do something so damn loud and draw attention to himself. Doom has a host of underlings and manservents, he would have simply called one of the hired help to come get him. Doom also wouldn't bust in his own castle or buliding, he would have mulitple secret entrances and exists to serve him. Doom has never beenknown to cause sensless destruction. now the Hulk would smash thre a wall, just as commom villians or hired muscle like Sabretooth or Sandman would smash up a diner and steal a motorbike. What they have doom doing is so out of character. Doom is above pettiness, and man believes he's better then everyone else because of his intelligence. He also doens't want to conquer the world so he can make everyone slaves or is going on a power trip. Doom's reason for conquest is because he feels he knows what's best for all, and he can bring order to the world. I don't know what's going on with doom in this draft, but it doesn't sound like the Doom i know.

I'm so angry, becaue these people know nothing of Doom, and these changes are asinine? doom doesn't have superpowers, the man doesn't need them, because of his intelliect.Doom has always been a great challange, for even the most powerful of heroes. The man is a techno wizard, with a host of inventions and weapons that make all pause. No one rushes to battle Doom, they no how dangerious this man mind is, and his unmatched planning. FOX wanted doom on that ship, well fine, but Doom would have found a way to shield himself from the deadly cosmic rays. He also would have gotton a sample of them, for his own purposes. Instead of him taking on the F4, he would use the cosmic particles to make him some superpowered servents, and they would battle the F4 as a distraction, while he puts into play is grand scheme. At the very end, would the F4 battle Doom, where he is forced to comfront them, and they will be surprised that this man has built weapons to incapacitate them. FOX and the creative team just don't get it.

I like most of what I've read. Like the man says, roll the with punches. I dislike the Ultimate version of the mutated/armored Doom. Despite that, I love everything in the backdrop of that version of the character. That OTHER stuff needs to be blended in, not him hotwiring a bike. As another TB'er wrote, Doom is a chess player that's thought his moves out in advance. The 'Debbie' angle sounds like too long a play just to build through the bridge scene leading toward Alicia. It's not a simple 10-20 second cut like the Johnny on Letterman angle could be. This aside, Doom in his current state needs to be rethought. He's the only facet I can consider out-of-line given what's revealed in this article.

To the fans; chill out. This could be awesome. It's being made, it's out of your hands, so let's just sit back and see how it plays out. While not EXACTLY like the original comic (god forbid), this sounds a lot like Ultimate FF, which has successfully updated Marvel's first family in an modern way. Relax. Let's just see. To the film makers; do your best. Be true to the material, but not slavish. Good Luck, you bastards.

Hey, kids! Remember that crappy "Captain America" movie that starred the "Catcher In the Rye's" kid? Draw your own conclusions. I will say no more.

Sept. 14, 2004, 2:31 a.m. CST

by proper

I don't think it's a good thing when filmakers feel they have to change things that have worked for decades but I hope they fix up and get things right.The people who I know who didn't like Hulk saw it at the cinema,I saw it on DVD and enjoyed it.In any sequel though I would like to see gray Hulk and maybe some supervillian action.Worldwide crew check this out......http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004423137,00.html.

The only thing related to that "fantastic four" I've even seen was the "unreleased" Corman flick, but "Von Doom" sounds hilarious even for someone who has never seen the "real FF". Har! "Victor von Doom, meet Elan Sleazebaggano. He will accompany you on your journey to the Crematoria and then the Underverse. And he's a close friend of Pitof and McG!"

1)Doom is the ruler of his own country and wears body armor to hide facial scars from an accident he swears Richards is responsible. 2)Punisher is a psychopath that kills criminals with as much brutallity as any modern day slasher movie star. 3)Catwoman is Selina Kyle and frequents Gotham City. 4)Daredevil does not kill EVER! 5)Bruce Banner is a scrawny, nerdy type not someone of Eric Bana's stature. And whilst on the subject of Hulk I shall voice my opinion and say that movie was utter arse. Ang Lee promised a psychological drama with a green monster and still used comic fonts for opening credits, comic book panel style insert screens and a truly groan worthy third act with the psudo Absorbing Man shtick. If he wanted to do a good high-concept drama, then DO IT! Don't pander.

It got my hope's up that they had a turn around at FOX. Then I heard the got Mcmahon for the role(I was hoping the rumor about Jason Isaacs being tested for the role was true, he'd be pure evil behind the mask) which he will suck at and fuck up the rest of the movie caused by his suckassedness, and now I read about the major changes to the origin story. FOX had the chance to bring one of my childhood fave comic's to life and all that is now shattered. Fuck FOX, fuck them up there stupid asses!!

And the jelly fish with all the memory visuals all over it. My god, that was a strange STRANGE film. I felt like I was on some strange drug. Especially now thinking back. And Dare Devil? Am I turning into a naysayer here? No, These films were NOT GOOD!

My mind boggles at how staggeringly stupid an idea that is. I won't be able to bring myself to watch this drivel - thankfully, all the comics are still there for me to enjoy (as long as the word "ultimate" is nowhere in the title.

Look, I can accept that Peter Parker has organic webshooters. That's a change that although I lamented, I could live with because everything else was so thematically right. I really didn't like the Green Goblin suit, but at least they got the character right - so I was willing to go along with it. But for GOD'S SAKE, HOW CAN ANYONE GIVE THIS VERSION OF DOCTOR DOOM A CHANCE?!?!? This completely and absolutely is NOT Doctor Doom. Doctor Doom is not psychotic. At all. Period. He is an utter egomaniac who's greatest trial in life is the fact that although he knows he is intellectually superior to Reed Richards is constantly beaten by the Fantastic Four. Period. He is not some Lex Luthor wannabe. He is the supreme dictator of Latveria. Period. You can take your "updates" and your "makes sense" and your "modernization" and shove them straight up Joe Quesada's ass where the Fantastic Four have been held prisoner for the last few years. Oh, and Sue Richards is Reed Richards' wife. Period. Doctor Doom does NOT get bombarded by cosmic rays. Period. This sucks. Hard. I will not see this movie if this is how they're doing it, and I will join the right thinking geeks in creating a torrent of anti-movie hype that will make what we thought of Catwoman seem like worship in comparison.

****Tirade Alert*****Fox is stupid. The story sounded good until they mentioned all that Doom crap. Anyway I will never forgive FOX for AVP. How did "Aliens" cost 20 mil to make and is still one of the best action-sci-fi films ever? And AVP cost 70+ and was complete crap? Fox better save their Day After Tomorrow and I Robot money, because they are going to need it to cover this flop. And Jessica Alba is a tool. I stopped liking her after the Punk'd episode. She was acting all stupid telling the naked guy to leave the store she was in. It's like if something bothers you so much, you should leave, why should he leave? Her stuck up celebrity mentality really shined through when she thought no one was looking. Rachel MacAdams would have been a better Sue. And has 2 proven hits under her belt, Mean Girls and The Notebook. What does Alba have? A failed TV show, Honey, and posters of her in assless chaps. Shit might as well make JLO Psylocke in X3.

I have had a day to think about this and it is worse today than yesterday. Doom is the leader of a country. And I forgot about the whole Diplomatic Immunity thing in the comics. I watched my copy of the Corman FF flick last night and even though the movie was cheesy, they got all the elements right. It probably is the most "true to the comics" movie ever made. Kind of sad when you think that they only sunk a cool mil into that film and are ready to drop 200 large on this flick. UGH! And as for the Hulk, it IS the best comic flick ever made. It may take years for most to realize it, but it will someday be recognized for its great story. The only thing that was bad was the ending battle. But the story was right out of issue 312 and really showed the psychological side of being the Hulk. And I for one, really liked the stylized comic panel transitions for the film. Gave it a comic feel. I know I am in the minority on that one.
The Belt Has Spoken!

No wait, this movie's going to suck, and not even a Conan 0'Brien cameo could change that. It may be wrong to judge this early but the changes to Doctor Doom sound terrible. I've never liked the FF much but I consider their arch-enemy to be the coolest Marvel villian. If changes are made to such an iconic character, they should be made to give him more depth rather then less.

It doesn't sound awful, but a bit overly contrived to try and set up relationships with these characters early on. Absolutely poor handling of Doom, though. Leave Doom out of the origin story. There's plenty of ways to go about suggesting an existing rivalry between he and Reed from their college days without having Sue date Victor, for pete's sake.

I think Im right about this, because so many of you have it wrong. Dooms origins were that he comes from a line of gypsies, somehow he does become the ruler of Latvia and does become megalomaniacal and bent on world domination of course. But as for the mask, Doom got a scar or something on his face, said to be very minor, but the handsome Victor Von Doom was so vain he was outraged and had some monks make him a mask so that he wouldnt have to look at his "disfigured" face ever again, they went old school and made an iron mask and while it was still red hot off the coals, Doom grabs it and smacks it on his mug and the hot iron melted the flesh to the metal, thus truly difiguring him. I thought the actor chosen for doom was great because I could see him being totally vain, pefect for Doom. They could even go with the current plan and still have Doom up in space with the 4. The 4 meet the new, handsome, charismatic ruler of the small European country, Latvia. He offers to fund thier research in exchange for rights, blah, blah, blah as long as he could go into space with them. They end up on this space station that Latvia recently put into orbit. When the station is bombarded by the cosmic rays and things go wrong and they have to evacuate, Doom gets left behind. But he still escapes on his own, crashing to Earth, but ending up with only a few broken bones, no cosmetic damage except for a small cut on his cheek. And heres where the real origin comes in. He does his mending from the crash in Tibet or something at a monestary, thats when he realizes the small wound on his face will scar, he blames it on Reed and the others and gos mental and does the original face mask thing... I think this is a nice blend of the new storyline and the original origin. Esp since it was Dooms vanity that really screwed up his face, and that could be the pentultimate moment when you see the "kind and gentle" ruler of Latvia show his true colors...
Thoughts?

The great thing about Doom was that he was a great presense in the marvel universe. doom has faced down a good many heroes in the Marvel universe, and it worked, because of his greatness. doom has also been known to manipulate things from behind the scenes, and have pitted hero aganst hero, and villian aganst villian to serve his own purposes, and people are none the wiser until it's to late. That is the way of doom, and not some guy who busts up diners and steal motorbikes in fits og anger. doom is much more then the standard cookie cutter villian.

Please dear god do not do what I think you're going to do FOX. Why do I get this feeling that the cosmic ray cloud will that gave the FF their powers is now heading toward earth, and will cause dangerous mutations in the populace of earth, and killing milllions who don't mutate into superbeings. Add in that Doom wants this to happen for some asinie reason, and the FF has to stop him from his plan. Sounds a lot like Magneto and the mutant making machine.

If the suits at FOX are worried that a "faithful" adaption of Dr. Doom would draw unfavourable comparisons to Darth Vader, then they really are the clueless morons that their current FF script reveals them to be. Dr. Doom first appeared in Fantastic Four #5 dated 1961 (I know because I have a MINT copy) which predates Star Wars by 15 years. In the George Lucas biography, SKYWALKING, his wife relates the story of how Lucas had been struggling to write the script for the first Star War film until he went to the store and came back with a stack of comic books. It is pretty obvious considering many of the similarities that the Fantastic Four and New Gods comics were among the bunch. But Doom was first - and is still the best! He owes more to the tragic characters of classic literature such as Dracula, The Phantom of the Opera, and The Man in the Iron Mask, then he does to any of his four-colour contemporaries. FOX has (or had) the opportunity to create something truly special, but they fumbled the ball badly - in EVERY respect! It simply boggles the mind that they could get Magneto so right, but screw up the greatest villian in the Marvel (or any) universe. I'm still depressed. Oh, and Moriarty... I've always enjoyed your articles, but after reading your FF script review, I think you've just become a company shill. If you actually like the script with all of its changes, then you are most definitely NOT a Fantastic Four fan (and probably never have been). As someone who owns a near-complete run of the title (I am missing issues 1 and 2 and am not willing to mortgage the house to buy them), I think I'm in a fairly good position to recognize a true FF Fan when I meet one.

Sweet jumpin' Jeebus, that sounds REALLY bad. Hell, I could shit a better script than that. In fact, I think I will. Somebody go get me a roll of toilet paper. P.S. Hulk sucked, Daredevil was mediocre at best, and I haven't bothered to see Punisher because it looked really bad. Later.

I want to get the Hulk about as bad as you want to get the clap. That movie was junk. As for the FF. Well...I smell another Catwoman. Victor Von Doom is Stalin! With kick-ass armor and a green hooded cloak over that! He is a combination of technical wizardry and magic ( looks-wise anyway ) and they turn him into a foil-encrusted Bill Gates??!! FUCKing HELL man! I wanted to see that megalomaniac roaring away in his castle in the third person, stalking the halls with his green cape flowing after him and making Richards' life a living hell. He should have a face like a burn victim under that cool face-plate and fire bolts from his gauntlets and have a Mauser strapped to his belt. GAAAAAHHH! "Insolent scribblers...how dare they trifle with Doom's origin!" *sniff*

Yeah, this will go down the shitter, the way Daredevil did. Yeah, that's what I said. Daredevil only had an enjoyment factor of 30%, and I'm a Jennifer Garner fan. This idea for changing Doom is essentially crapping all over everything that made him the fun villain he was. McMahon has the talent to make ANY profile of Dr Doom believable, there's no excuse for dumbing down the accessibility to his character. Ian McKellan succeeded with Magneto out of pure charm and conviction of his role, so don't pull any BS rationalizations to cover for a really thin background. We have an ongoing war against a group of isolationist, middle-eastern raghead fanatics on a quest for Jihad against all western cultures calling themselves AL-QAIDA. If we can take them seriously, the minute they start blowing up buildings and passenger airliners, arguably with the resources of a number of 3rd world countries, I don't see why the writers can't stretch their heads just a little to accomodate an isolationist, monarchist european country of fanatics led by a green ragheaded general by the name of Doom. And none of that crap about the UN getting involved in ousting a dictator, dammit. The whole twist with Dr. Doom was that he treated his nation well, garnering their loyalty and support. If any comic fans recall, the irony of the FF assisting the Latverian rebels to oust Doom in the early conflicts was that they backed the wrong side, a true selfish fanatic, who led the country to a state of starvation and rampant crime with corrupt law enforcement, before the FF had to grudgingly admit to restoring Doom as the leader. Sure, there was brainwashing involved, because that's how ALL successful gov'ts keep their population loyal and happy. We have a 7-season series based on a Vampire-Killing Cheerleader, for god's sake, and a slew of other shows that prove there is absolutely no need to reinvent the stories to be more 'realistic' or 'accessible' to modern-day audiences. Christ, this just chaps my ass.

Apparently Fox thinks that Dr. Doom would be more believable if he is the head of some giant megacorporation instead of from a small, threatening European country. As many of the talkbackers have pointed out, this is a huge mistake as it necessitates huge changes to the Dr. Doom character. Anyone who doesn't think a country like Latveria could come into existence in the 21st century need only look at recent history. Think Russia/Chechnya, India/Pakistan or Israel/Palestine. Latveria could be formed by separatists who have taken over a small area in Europe. As the war with the original country raged on, eventually the separatists would identify themselves as Latverians, not citzens of the original country. After a decade or more of fighting, an agreement could be reached to legitimize the new country. This could be because the original country is tired of the bloodshed, or perhaps Latveria gains the upper-hand in the war (for example, acquires nukes). This is all background and would probably have occurred before the main timeline of the movie (but could be brought up in a flashback). Doom could rise to power in the post-war era, or he could be the leader of the separatists. There are a lot of options but all of them are better and more true to the spirit of the comics than the cookie-cutter Megacorporation exec idea. Besides, that idea sounds a little too similar to Oscorp in Spiderman. If the guys at Fox don't think they can make the Latverian country idea work in the modern era, they aren't trying hard enough.