markeroon wrote:What can we be doing to develop our hamstrings/glutes optimally? I rely on my hip flexors and quads excessively (I have a very low kickback), and I'm trying to even things out.

Presently, I'm running one hill workout per week with our group, as well as two-three weight sessions. I do scissor squats with an emphasis on driving with the glutes and hamstrings on the way up, standing single-legged hamstring curls (using the machine) with a focus on keeping my core completely engaged/still, and full squats. Should I be doing deadlifts as well? Anything else?

I've been doing this stuff for nearly two months, and I'm already seeing the changes manifested in my stride. Thanks in advance for any tips.

Hamstring Curls do not replicate the running motion well-the hamstrings should be used for extending the leg, not curling the foot towards the hips. The foot should curl up towards the hip mainly on its own, not because you are activly jerking it up with your hamstring. However, you said you have gotten results from them so maybe stick with them, just do some other stuff as well.

I used to have the same problem-I was a shuffler, and even when sprinting my feet when coming through would be lower then knee high. My quads and hipflexors did all of the work, I was literally running with straight legs. Unimpeded, powerful hip extension is the best way to get a good backkick. Quads, hamstrings, glutes, psoas. Try bulgarian split squats, they work all of those and stretch the hip flexors as well which is important. Also, don't be afraid to do hills several times a week.

Canova disciple-A set of 6-10X10 second hills up 10-12% hills once a week during the track season is a great idea I think. But it shouldn't be the focus of the week any longer like it was during the base phase. At that point you are no longer developing your power/coordination/recruitment, you are just maintaining it. The focus is on more specific work.

Pmoax-could you (or anyone else) describe how RDLs work? Proper form, right weight amount on average, etc. I have tried deadlifts but have never gotten good results, maybe I am doing them wrong?

Curiously-I agree that front end mechanics and back end mechanics are very closely related. Back kick and knee lift are very closely related. It is impossible to have a highback kick and high knee lift, and vice versa. Someone jogging will have very low knee lift and very low back kick. Someone sprinting will have a high knee lift and higher back kick. I think the most useful drill is the fast legs drill. Jog easily, then suddenly pull one leg through very quickly with the hip flexor, and then fire the glutes and hamstrings and extend it powerfully. It does wonders for leg speed and power.

Hamstring Curls do not replicate the running motion well-the hamstrings should be used for extending the leg, not curling the foot towards the hips. The foot should curl up towards the hip mainly on its own, not because you are activly jerking it up with your hamstring. However, you said you have gotten results from them so maybe stick with them, just do some other stuff as well.

I used to have the same problem-I was a shuffler, and even when sprinting my feet when coming through would be lower then knee high. My quads and hipflexors did all of the work, I was literally running with straight legs. Unimpeded, powerful hip extension is the best way to get a good backkick. Quads, hamstrings, glutes, psoas. Try bulgarian split squats, they work all of those and stretch the hip flexors as well which is important. Also, don't be afraid to do hills several times a week.

Canova disciple-A set of 6-10X10 second hills up 10-12% hills once a week during the track season is a great idea I think. But it shouldn't be the focus of the week any longer like it was during the base phase. At that point you are no longer developing your power/coordination/recruitment, you are just maintaining it. The focus is on more specific work.

Pmoax-could you (or anyone else) describe how RDLs work? Proper form, right weight amount on average, etc. I have tried deadlifts but have never gotten good results, maybe I am doing them wrong?

Curiously-I agree that front end mechanics and back end mechanics are very closely related. Back kick and knee lift are very closely related. It is impossible to have a highback kick and high knee lift, and vice versa. Someone jogging will have very low knee lift and very low back kick. Someone sprinting will have a high knee lift and higher back kick. I think the most useful drill is the fast legs drill. Jog easily, then suddenly pull one leg through very quickly with the hip flexor, and then fire the glutes and hamstrings and extend it powerfully. It does wonders for leg speed and power.

I love deadlifts, but for running specific I feel RDL's are even better. They are also a great tool for building strength if you want to develop into doing olympic lifts later. For weight I would start with just the bar or some 10's on each side just so you can properly develop the neural pattern. I now use about 40-65k or about 95-155lbs in 3 sets of 5-8, after that my form diminishes and I start loosing the strenght benifit. For RDL's the for would be to start with the bar in hands about shoulder width and then soften your knees, they SHOULD NOT BE STRAIGHT or overly bent. From there assume a tight posture with a neutral spine and core tight and proceed to PUSH YOUR HIPS BACK. You are not bending at the knees durring this exercise. If you are doing it right you should feel almost a cramping sensation/ stretching in your hamstrings and glutes. Then return to the erect postion by pushing/driving your HIPS through. Do sets of 12 to start and try to achieve a depth of just past your knees and slowly start to progress to a lower depth with each set. Please try these out and let me know if my explanation helped. I am a high school 400/800 runner who also interns under Scott Pucek one of the best NFL Draft Combine prep coaches and I would like to coach track one day, so I would like to know if my coaching helps.

2008D2 NCAA champ wrote:man, i just went hard on the days i was to, and easy on the days i was to go easy.

just kinda did 3 days of aerobic and 3 days of anerobic workouts. took 1 day off a week.

speed in the fall, strength in the winter, speed in the spring.

1:48.57 to show for it.

I ran the same training schedule you describe above in college and ran 1:48 as a Sophomore, 1:48 as a Jr., and 1:48 as a Sr.

Then I switched coaches/programs/philosophy and began doing the schedule that we have been describing along this thread and ran 1:46.50 only 12 months later, including missing November/December/ 50% January with a tibia stress fracture. 3:39 the year after that. I still had injury problems and never made any Olympic teams, but it was an enourmous sense of pride to feel like I got closer to potential and was worth the sacrifice. I hope you give it a go.

Given that you ran 1:48 off of 6 days a week running and speed in the fall, I would encourage you to consider stepping up to the next level on your training as it sounds like you could make Nationals and be competitive. Your tone sounds too casual...dont be satisfied as the big fish in a small pond...

How did you approach indoors? Would you treat them the same as outdoors or would you do some things differently?

I have to admit I am not a fan of indoors...if you run 3-4 races all on banked tracks then fine, but a full season on flat 200m ovals is just not good for you, period.

That said, if you are running in college in the Northeast or Midwest you basically have no choice. I think you can interrupt your strength training in the winter and have a mini peak, using only 4 weeks of sharpening starting in mid Jan, then taper starting mid Feb to finish at NCAAs or Nationals first week of March. Keep mileage consistant as best you can (this is where I hate too much racing) until the taper. AC's 600m progression is a great way to phase into it, along with an additional session per week in Feb of near flat out 300s or 2*400 to tune up your lactic acid tolerance. Keep doing your tempos but cut down to 4 miles and drop pace. Long run only gets gets cut back by 80% the week or two before nationals to make certain muscle fibers are fresh.

Dont let your coach have you do 200s in December....you will feel like garbage in February.

One week of easy runs, no workouts after Nationals to reset the system, then build back up for another 4-5 weeks at good mileage and phasing into pace work

Pmoax wrote:I love deadlifts, but for running specific I feel RDL's are even better. They are also a great tool for building strength if you want to develop into doing olympic lifts later. For weight I would start with just the bar or some 10's on each side just so you can properly develop the neural pattern. I now use about 40-65k or about 95-155lbs in 3 sets of 5-8, after that my form diminishes and I start loosing the strenght benifit. For RDL's the for would be to start with the bar in hands about shoulder width and then soften your knees, they SHOULD NOT BE STRAIGHT or overly bent. From there assume a tight posture with a neutral spine and core tight and proceed to PUSH YOUR HIPS BACK. You are not bending at the knees durring this exercise. If you are doing it right you should feel almost a cramping sensation/ stretching in your hamstrings and glutes. Then return to the erect postion by pushing/driving your HIPS through. Do sets of 12 to start and try to achieve a depth of just past your knees and slowly start to progress to a lower depth with each set. Please try these out and let me know if my explanation helped. I am a high school 400/800 runner who also interns under Scott Pucek one of the best NFL Draft Combine prep coaches and I would like to coach track one day, so I would like to know if my coaching helps.

Today I'll did leg presses, but I'll be sure to try those out in a few days. Incidently, what is the difference between normal deadlifts and the Romanian variety?

Romanian Deadlifts you do not touch the floor with the barbell on each rep and the motion comes more from the hips stressing the hamstring muscles that affect hip movements. Making this a great exercise especially if you believe what oldsub4 was saying about "sitting in" as I do. A regular deadlift is a bit more taxing on the back muscles and on the nervous system as a whole which makes doing speed work later that day or the next day near impossible. You'll also notice the more you do RDL's the more flexibilty you will develop without even doing static stretches.

When would be the best time to fit in olympic lifts. Would it work to do them after speed workouts later in the day? I am asking for 800m on down. I am a coach and I'm having trouble trying to fit regular weight sessions in. I don't want to do them before speed work because I'm worried about the central nervous system getting too taxed. I also don't want to do them the next day because I want to give the central nervous system time to recover from the speed work. Doing the olympic lifts as a p.m. session on the same day as the speed work is the best idea I can think of.

When would be the best time to fit in olympic lifts. Would it work to do them after speed workouts later in the day? I am asking for 800m on down. I am a coach and I'm having trouble trying to fit regular weight sessions in. I don't want to do them before speed work because I'm worried about the central nervous system getting too taxed. I also don't want to do them the next day because I want to give the central nervous system time to recover from the speed work. Doing the olympic lifts as a p.m. session on the same day as the speed work is the best idea I can think of.

I am by no means an expert on this but the people I know who are would agree with you. If time permits doing weights a couple hours later would be the best way to go, try to get a meal and a shower in-between. Olympic Lifts are too taxing as you said to do before any sort of quality speed and if you do them inbetween speed days your potentially going hard on the cns 6 days a week. Weights are an ends to a mean and should not be a focal point but still should be utilized 2-3 times a week. A modified schedule to the one I previously posted and very similar to my own as a 2-4-8 runner would beDay1:6X2 Snatches from hang or blocks10X1 Clean grip high pulls from floor4X8 Squats3X5 RDL's2X8 Step UpsDay2:6X2 Cleans from hang or blocks10X1 One Arm Snatch from floor working on having a low starting postion3X3 Full Deadlift4X8 Front Squats2X8 Overhead Squats

I would like to post a question to anybody that would like to answer. When is the best time for plyo's? Before Track work, after track work, before weights, durring weights? I currently do them before weights but I am not sure if this is the best way.

well if ya knew me, i went 1:52.89 as a fresh. 1:51.5 soph, 1:49.63 junior, and 1:48.57 senior.

so the system i was in was working fairly well for me, considering i came out of hs running a 1:57.07.

as far as sounding casual, yeah. i just do the work at practice and then thats it. what is there to think about? i listen to my coaches, do the work that needs to be done for that day, and thats all i can do. go home and rest for the following day.

until i get paid to do that, i will act casual about it because it's brought me success.

and as far as your "big fish in a small pond" comment, i'm pretty sure the NCAA Division 2 is not as small of a pond that you may think it is. Nick Lara (adams state 1:47 800 guy), Nicademus Namadu (abielene christian 13:38 5k), just 2 former d2 national champs in the 800, 5k, steeple, and 10k, aaaaaand XC might get affended.

so the system i was in was working fairly well for me, considering i came out of hs running a 1:57.07.

as far as sounding casual, yeah. i just do the work at practice and then thats it. what is there to think about? i listen to my coaches, do the work that needs to be done for that day, and thats all i can do. go home and rest for the following day.

until i get paid to do that, i will act casual about it because it's brought me success.

and as far as your "big fish in a small pond" comment, i'm pretty sure the NCAA Division 2 is not as small of a pond that you may think it is. Nick Lara (adams state 1:47 800 guy), Nicademus Namadu (abielene christian 13:38 5k), just 2 former d2 national champs in the 800, 5k, steeple, and 10k, aaaaaand XC might get affended.

I re-read my mail and my tone wasnt what I meant....wasnt dissing you, Div 2, or Div 3; more hoping to inspire you to aim higher and define "success" as making US Nationals in the 800m next year. If you ran 1:48 on the training you described, I think you would find that you would run faster with a greater, more structured workload. But you are right, you would not get sponsorship off of 1:48 and it sounds like it isnt that important to you, so by all means my two posts to you should be ignored.

I'm a fan of longer intervals at race pace/close to race pace for milers, this is too often neglected as many people like to do fast 400s. Long intervals such as 3X1000m at 2 seconds per 400 slower than mile pace or a 1200m time trial followed by some shorter pace work prepare a runner far more for the demands of racing than short intervals of only 1/4th the race distance. In the racing season, either a race or such a long race pace interval workout is necessary about every 10 days, and can be supplemented by strength work (at 3k pace mostly in the competitive season for milers) and neuromuscular work (hills or sprints)/ speed work (a little slower than 800 pace).

Also useful are workouts such as 3X3X600m, with the first of each set about 4 seconds per 400 slower than mile pace, the next 2 seconds, and the 3rd at pace to improve specific endurance before the competitive phase.

Similarities- use of hills throughout most of the year, especially short hills (60-300m), probably for 8-10 months of the year. Long intervals of 800-2000m for most of the year. Tempo work in the base (by my definition the 1st half of the training year), sometimes continued into the spring/summer season. Use of hill sprints and drills to develope speed in off season. Emphasis on work done slightly slower than race pace transitioning into more race pace work. Emphasis on strength over speed, even very close to race season. Volume of about 70-80 mpw during most of the year tapering to more like 40-60 mpw during race season.

Differences- training during race season. Warhurst backs off a ton on training with mostly strides during race weeks or quick tuneup workouts like 6X200 not super hard, Gagliano does a lot of short hard intervals such as 4X400m, Canova seems to do more slower strength type work like 10X500m. Also Canova prescribes circuits such as 5X(80m hill sprint, 20 burpees, 60m bounding, 20 crunches, 80m hill sprint, 20 straight-legged jumps, 60m bounding) with long recoveries at 80% effort in the base, then 3 months with the jumps at 100% and the rest at 80%, then the sprints at 100% and the rest at 80% during racing season to develope speed endurance and muscle recruitment. Also Warhurst has his runners do weightlifting 2-3 times per week, I dont know about Gagliano but I don't think that Canova's athletes do this, they do hill sprints and circuits instead.

Other coaches- John Cook had a lot of success with a Coe- modelled plan with about 45-90 mins of conditioning daily- hurdles, total-body circuits every other day, medicin ball work, and pedestal work. Also Coe's stuff is more similar to this than people realize, about 80 mpw with tons of supplementary work including 1-2 lifting sessions per week and a "Sunday slog" workout with tempos, 5k pace sessions, and short hills (30X100m was the classic) for much of the year, transitioning into the classical 5-pace training during racing/prerace season.

That's a nice summary. That is also what I see when I try to get an overview-much fast running, very little slow-recovery running. Not everyone survives on this,but it does seem that this is what the big guns have done successfully. Note to the D2 champ. Old sub 4 is not speaking down to you, he is encouraging you. My thoughts are similar. Yes, you have done well to here, but you may be closer than you think to 1:46 if you do a bit more of the base/tempo/600m reps that this thread is all about. Anthony: Great comment about the 1500 schedule of 1000s. Did you catch the David Moorcroft thread a few weeks back which stated that he did 2 key workouts his entire career- 4x600 and 4x1000. He got the 600s down to 1:23 and the 1000s down to 2:25 and then he ran 3:33 and 13:00.