stop responding to thy. stop engaging him in debate. stop indulging his lunacy. he has nothing to contribute on any subject. there is nothing he can say that will be insightful or interesting, there is nothing you can say that will prompt him to say 'oh, I was wrong. sorry'

just stop. please?

love john x

I disagree, I think people should periodically antagonize Thy. He throws the most brilliant keybaord-spasms. We get to read Thy explain the human right to end their own life away, because the government will kill people and cover it up as a suicide. Like when they supposedly did it already when it was illegal._________________(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")o

Nah everyone's tired of him shitting up threads now. And given the degree to which he flipped his shit over my linking to wikipedia followed by him linking to two wikipedia articles in this thread, the line between mental and trolling grows hair-thin indeed.

Joined: 01 May 2007Posts: 1080Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:34 am Post subject:

my thoughts were more along the lines of physical pain. chronic, daily even, pain that, though nonfatal, is debilitating and disabling. a pain condition that has been persistent for years and without much in the way of treatment outside large doses of opioids. physical pain and psychological disorders for most people are no doubt comorbid and form a cyclical pattern with one acerbating the other which acerbates the other..... and I know personally that psych problems can certainly manifest physical pain which leads to emotional/mental pain and disorder. I feel like I'm talking in circles here because I basically am. these issues become so intertwined within a person that it can be nearly impossible to separate one from the other. that's what I'm trying to do, though, tease out the physical from the psychological.

suicide as a response to psychological distress is especially tragic for me (although I can unfortunately wrap my head around those motivations). I have no intention of belittling the severity of mental illness, I'm more familiar with the effects of mental anguish than I would care to be but, as has been mentioned (by fiona, I think), through medication and therapy this distress can usually be managed, even if is a lifelong condition.

suicide, whether assisted or not, of an elderly or terminally ill individual is an issue I'm barely going to address. my feelings have been iterated by others already. grant them the dignity and respect to choose what they feel to be appropriate for themselves.

I'm interested in knowing how people other than myself feel about the right/appropriateness/acceptance etc. of someone young (20'-30's), with a nonfatal chronic pain issue that has been persisting for years (5-10 yrs), with basically no treatment options and looking at another 40-some odd years of continuous pain. opiods might offer some comfort or relief, but then the issues of tolerance, addiction, rebound pain, and opioid-induced hyperalgesia may become compounding factors. that's not even considering the physiological (hormone/ neurotransmitter production, the simply taxing effect on internal organs/systems) or the psychological (depression, the sedate complacency leading to apathy, further loss of motivation, ambition, desire, and productiveness) effects of opioids. basically narcotics are not a suitable long-term solution.

which leaves what? a lifetime of agony with little hope of improvement, just trying to get to the end of the next day because any plans or ambitions or goals seem utterly infeasible when it takes everything to make it through a typically normal day? or suicide, which everyone treats with such taboo and views as such a selfish decision that it has almost been transformed into the ultimate insult that someone can inflict on their loved ones?_________________FormerlyGreen_Finn

I'm interested in knowing how people other than myself feel about the right/appropriateness/acceptance etc. of someone young (20'-30's), with a nonfatal chronic pain issue that has been persisting for years (5-10 yrs), with basically no treatment options and looking at another 40-some odd years of continuous pain. opiods might offer some comfort or relief, but then the issues of tolerance, addiction, rebound pain, and opioid-induced hyperalgesia may become compounding factors. that's not even considering the physiological (hormone/ neurotransmitter production, the simply taxing effect on internal organs/systems) or the psychological (depression, the sedate complacency leading to apathy, further loss of motivation, ambition, desire, and productiveness) effects of opioids. basically narcotics are not a suitable long-term solution.

which leaves what? a lifetime of agony with little hope of improvement, just trying to get to the end of the next day because any plans or ambitions or goals seem utterly infeasible when it takes everything to make it through a typically normal day? or suicide, which everyone treats with such taboo and views as such a selfish decision that it has almost been transformed into the ultimate insult that someone can inflict on their loved ones?

As someone who, at the ripe old age of 33, and is starting to get arthritis, I find this discussion very pertinent. I've watched my dad suffer from chronic pain for about 15 or more years now and it's driven him deep into crazyland.

Also, I don't want to end up like my grandmother on a "medicinal cocktail". You know (not exact symptoms), where a pain medication causes high blood pressure, where the high blood pressure medication causes blood thinning, where the blood thinning medicine causes heartburn, the heartburn meds cause dizziness, the dizziness meds cause anxiety, etc._________________...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.http://about.me/omardrake

Joined: 09 Jul 2006Posts: 9702Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject:

Snorri wrote:

Anyway, whatever I just said aside, mental illness can't really qualify for euthanasia since there is way to tell if the request is wellreasoned and willing.

How can we say someone in chronic pain is in their right mind/can make reasonable decisions? Not to be morbid but isn't torture based on the idea that pain breaks you down so you go against your principle not to talk? How does chronic pain differ?

Pretty much I am asking his one can tell if a suicide request is well reasoned whether it is from a terminally ill patient, a mentally ill patient, or a chronic pain sufferer?

And just a thought - isn't a request for death with dignity in terminal ill patients kinda like a Do Not Resuscitate?_________________Before God created Las he pondered on all the aspects a woman might have, he considered which ones would look good super-inflated and which ones to leave alone.
After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael

Joined: 01 May 2007Posts: 1080Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject:

that's an excellent point. someone suffering a major depressive episode or some other mental illness would almost certainly have their judgement questioned when expressing a desire to end their life, it's really just common sense. but is a chronic pain patient rational in their decision making?

a terminally ill patient with six months or so of pain, systemic failure, cognitive deterioration, etc. who wants to end their life while in control of their faculties to avoid all that suffering which can only lead to a painful death seems well reasoned to me.

as I mentioned with mental illness, this becomes very questionable. there are treatment options which can mitigate some of the more severe symptoms and improve quality of life. I suspect most of our personal experience with mental illness deals primarily with depression, anxiety/phobia, and bipolar disorders. we, or at least I, know that things are not always so bad that suicide seems like the only option. it may feel that way during an episode, but it is not a persistent desire. this, for me, is why I would be questionable to consider a desire for suicide originating from mental illness well reasoned. I'm side-stepping issues such as PTSD, personality, and schizoaffective disorders because I don't have a clear enough concept of the mental states involved to be comforting commenting. If anyone can weigh in on this I would be interested in your insight.

chronic pain though? there is certainly a mental wellness component that would need to be considered. plus fiona is right, persistent pain can, and eventually will, break you. it breaks you physically, it breaks you mentally, it breaks you emotionally, and it breaks you spiritually. it alters your personality, the way you think and view the world, your capacity for sympathy and empathy, and the effort put into appearing "normal" or "okay" when it is required of you leaves little energy or desire for pleasurable or social pursuits. so it undoubtedly can change your mental state, but does it also effect your ability to make an informed/rational/well reasoned decision about ending your own life? on one hand, when in that level of severe pain all your thoughts are consumed with the desire for relief from that pain (whether it be through obtaining pain relieving narcotics at any cost, seeking the release offered by sleep my any means available to you, or eliminating the pain and everything else through death). in this circumstance (which would be spiking a 10 on the 1-10 pain scale index) I would argue that, no, this person isn't capable of making a rational, well reasoned decision about suicide. but on the other hand, if suffering for the better part of a decade in continuous and severe pain (7-10 on the pain scale all day, everyday), with pain levels only ever dropping as low as 4-5 when so doped up as to be in a borderline stupor, and possessing the knowledge that while the pain will not kill you, it will persist throughout the rest of your life. in that situation, given sufficient time to explore any alternative solutions and having devoted enough time to trying to cope and bear the pain, then I can see the decision to commit suicide as well thought out, rational, and reasonable._________________FormerlyGreen_Finn

Joined: 01 May 2007Posts: 1080Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:09 pm Post subject:

Lasairfiona wrote:

And just a thought - isn't a request for death with dignity in terminal ill patients kinda like a Do Not Resuscitate?

as I understand it a Do Not Resuscitate - DNR applies if the person is dying and prohibits measures such as intubation for artificial respiration or prevents the administration of CPR or defibrillation after death.

a request for death with dignity could be like a DNR and prohibit the use of artificial methods of keeping the patient alive. alternatively, I could see it as a request to end one's life prematurely to avoid the pain, suffering, mental and physical deterioration, etc. that may be inevitable depending on the nature of the terminal disease._________________FormerlyGreen_Finn

I don't know how Oregon does it, but here you can only utilize euthanasia if you have a medical diagnosis of six months or less to live. There are a variety of safeguards to prevent people from pursuing it in a period of mental anguish.

oregon also limits it to terminal illness, although it doesn't seem to specify a time span. it does require examination by a second doctor, to confirm the diagnosis and that the patient is making an informed and voluntary decision. for oregon, at least, this allows a physician to write a prescription for a pill that the patient takes to end his or her life. the statute specifically forbids lethal injection or active euthanasia by another person.

so: more than just a dnr.

i'm fully in favor of this, but once you open it beyond people who are already terminal, i have problems. i don't think i would condemn someone who was clearly in pain with no realistic hope of that changing, who did decide to end their own life - but i think it is the sort of thing you should talk about with the people in your life. i know with depression, it can be easy to see things as much darker than they really are; sometimes talking with other people might help you see that. i would not be in favor of legislatively opening up the option of assisted suicide for non-terminal people (which would be opening it up for everyone), because i am afraid that it will lead to the deaths of people for whom things might have improved. but we all have different breaking points, so you can't really say what is unbearable for someone else. so i'm in favor of sympathy towards people who think they have reached that point.

i don't think i would condemn someone who was clearly in pain with no realistic hope of that changing, who did decide to end their own life - but i think it is the sort of thing you should talk about with the people in your life. i know with depression, it can be easy to see things as much darker than they really are; sometimes talking with other people might help you see that. i would not be in favor of legislatively opening up the option of assisted suicide for non-terminal people (which would be opening it up for everyone)

Too bad the states in the USA have slashed the funding for mental health programs so that getting adequate treatment is becoming only an option for a privileged few. Mental illness can't be fixed through talking it out. Talk therapy might offer short term relief, but the illness will reassert itself shortly thereafter. You need medication, therapy and support. All of which are expensive. The government knows it's not okay to help the mentally ill die, but apparently it's alright if you let them die through neglect.

just talking to your friends and family won't cure you, but it may make you decide to stick around long enough see a professional, is what i was thinking. it would be nice if you could fix everything with a few good conversations, but if that were true, mental illness wouldn't be anything near the problem it is.

and hopefully mental health programs will also see some benefit from the affordable health care act._________________aka: neverscared!

stop responding to thy. stop engaging him in debate. stop indulging his lunacy. he has nothing to contribute on any subject. there is nothing he can say that will be insightful or interesting, there is nothing you can say that will prompt him to say 'oh, I was wrong. sorry'

Nah everyone's tired of him shitting up threads now. And given the degree to which he flipped his shit over my linking to wikipedia followed by him linking to two wikipedia articles in this thread, the line between mental and trolling grows hair-thin indeed.

Nah everyone's tired of him shitting up threads now. And given the degree to which he flipped his shit over my linking to wikipedia followed by him linking to two wikipedia articles in this thread, the line between mental and trolling grows hair-thin indeed.

Just form reply and move on. No further acknowledgement please.

I think everyone is tired of you telling them what to do honestly.

No, Thy, the voices in your head don't count as "everyone".

Seriously, just be coherent, admit when your wrong, let things go once in a while. Hell, pick just two or even only one of the three, it'll be a HUGE improvement. OR you don't even have to go for "admit your wrong", how about "acknowledge the possibility that you might be wrong". I don't think anyone here thinks you're a complete idiot, otherwise they wouldn't engage you at all. It's just 75% of the time we're all going "What's he saying?" to ourselves._________________...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.http://about.me/omardrake