Main Mary Sue Topia Discussion

Why is Straw Dystopia on this page? I realize it is a related concept. However, Chris Charter Effect and Kudzu Plots are related concepts but are separate pages. So, shouldn't Straw Dystopia be its own page?

The 300 example seems to be channelling the old attitude of "I know for a fact that this [character/society] was meant to be sympathetic, so all those things I dislike about them must be the result of Bad Writing and my own moral superiority to the average fan."

If you have to push aside the infanticide, militaristic society, corrupt politics and disgust towards the disabled to view something as an attempted Utopia, when does it occur to you that maybe it's actually supposed to be a flawed society? Historical Hero Upgrade, yes, but hardly an attempt at a Utopia.

Some of the Straw Dystopias examples don't seem to fit, especially if we consider this trope to fall under Bad Writing. Oceania from 1984 or the world in Brave New World illustrate a concept (or a multitude of concepts) in the form of a dystopia. That they are not possible (which seems to be the criticism) in real life does not make them Straw entities.

I move for deleting the 1984 and Brave New World examples, in particular.

SeptimusHeap

11:39:38 PM Jan 29th 2014

The key point of this trope is that the society is "perfect", not that it's unrealistic. So I'll have to oppose the motion.

ARaihan

12:37:47 AM Jan 30th 2014

Perfect dystopias? Alright. But the 1984 example at least goes on about how such a dystopia is not possible, which is beside the point as far as the book is concerned. At the least, I think that merits a rewrite. I don't see how Oceania counts as Bad Writing.

johnnye

09:19:50 AM Dec 16th 2015

...I don't understand how they even got past the "Utopia" part of the definition. They are the classic dystopias. I mean, you could argue that Brave New World is "perfect unless you don't follow the mainstream ideology" (if genetically engineering the poor to be too stupid to care fits into your definition of "perfect"), but 1984 is unremittingly bleak and awful for everyone except the ruling elite, with everyone else crushed under a jackboot. How anyone could view it as a portrayal of a perfect society is beyond me.

Some of the examples thrown in such as the Smurfs and
Care Bears seem to be just your run-of-the-mill Sugar Bowl fantasies. In fact, quite a few examples (and non-examples) imply that what makes this trope is, not an absurdly perfect society with blatant political bias and superiority on the author's part, but by virtue of lacking at least one of our world's modern day problems (i.e. pollution, war, sexism, poverty, corruption etc). Frankly, some just sound like regular Utopias.
Plus the fact that there is a Real Life section for a trope that can't exist in reality feels just a little out of place.

You know, I thought a Straw Dystopia was something like Oceania or the future in Anthem, but it's apparently a place where "Everyone lives a comfortable lifestyle, poverty and crime are not noticeably existent, people are friendly and well-behaved, and the trains run on time." Because that's totally what happens when you combine a strawman and a dystopia.

Speaking about contesting entries, I'd like to contest the Heralds of Valdemar entry. At the time of posting, the key definition of a Mary Sue Topia seems to be that it must not only be a perfect society, but one filled with perfect people. Valdemar is certainly not filled with such people, otherwise the Heralds would be redundant. Poverty and crime are roughly as much of a problem as they are in the real world. Child slavery, although highly illegal, is sadly not unknown. The first thing we find out about Valdemar's tradition of religious
freedom is that the Holderkin are stretching it almost to the breaking point.

I want to contest the Tomoeda one. On the whole wouldn't Tomoeda be more akin to a Sugar Bowl? It's got none of the baggage that typically comes with a Mary Suetopia like the strawman rival area, proof that any of its ideals or the way it works are superior to anywhere else...it just seems like a Sugar Bowl to me.

There is this book where things begin in a tense cold war like settings, with nuclear missiles in orbit and ready to strike.
During the time, a bunch of scientists develop some kind of biological weapon that remove all aggressiveness from people. Then, they decide to use it on the entire planet, ending every form of violence. War, crime, etc... is no more : it really is a perfect society.
Until someone become immune to the effect and wreaks havoc on a population that won't fight back

Okay. Cut Naruto example. The series is well aware how screwed up the setting is, given that fixing it is one of the hero's goals. It mainly just seemed like... a rant on how miserable the setting was, but the heroes weren't just trying to destroy everything.

This trope seems awfully redundant. I mean, a "straw utopia" is... what every utopia is; every attempt to portray a "perfect" society in any kind of depth will be unrealistic because, well, reality isn't perfect. The only difference between a a Utopia and a Marysuetopia seems to be "well okay but I really don't like THIS one."

Cromage

01:56:08 PM Apr 13th 2010

I agree. However, utopias can sometimes appear outside of utopia stories. A utopia could legitimately be a backdrop to another story, one that just doesn't deal with crime, war, or poverty. (as opposed to being a "utopia story", eg an Author Tract)

Dunno if that's worth a split though.

203.100.217.154

02:54:56 PM Jul 25th 2010

Maybe a good way to split it is where the Utopia's perfection is just there, not explained, without any real philosophical debate about -why- its perfect. Like how a Mary Sue develops powers to beat whatever the plot throws at her, the Mary Suetopia has solutions to every problem that could come up, just 'cos.

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