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Origins of Jesus in Astrology

Posted on: August 20, 2011 - 5:13pm

ex-minister

Posts: 1709

Joined: 2010-01-29

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Origins of Jesus in Astrology

Interested in the accuracy of these videos. I was aware of Horus, etc. But have not heard about the star Sirius lining up with the Orions belt (the three kings) pointing to the sun. does the sun take 3 days to change it course in December and does the southern cross point to it? What about all the connection to astrology? Anything else? Pretty cool video. We should start a superpac and air it on TV continuously during the month of December.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

As for your Missionary question, I believe there is both but should be helping the less fortunate as God will take care of the other as He sees fit.

The primary purpose of providing relief and aid to the less fortunate, IMO, should be just that, aid and relief. Not that I am leaping to the assertion that some christian organizations do not do that. I can think of one in particular that seems to have a prime directive of aid before religion.

However, think of some of the things that have been interjected into missionary work.

Mother Teresa was obsessed with ending contraceptives and abortion in India. With a country that suffers from the population explosion of India as well as the living conditions of that time. I would think the logical thing to do would be to encourage contraceptives.

As a matter of fact, with a world population of over 7 billion people, the idea of contraceptives should be widely in use, both in the developed world and IN THE underdeveloped nations.

I am only using one example of many to demonstrate my concern that theistic dogma and agendas can often be at the core of religious aid. To me, it seems to be the churches way of saying "We'll provide you food and medicine, but you have to accept our way of life first,".

Dang, that was poor english of mine! I agree (but still think Harleys are for old, fat men). I think the church in general does very little well but tries, I pray it will get better at being helpful without letting their 'higher motivation' hinder them. The core motivation for us should be as simple as 'love your neighbour as yourself' but as I mentioned before, ego's usually play a much larger part

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

What knowledge did the monastics save that was so helpful? The dark ages - yes when Christianity was in full power and control, when you could truly judge them by their fruits - Jesus told us to do that.

The Bible shows God as very active in human affairs. Yet since the invention of the video camera it is no more. That was another factor that led me to conclude the bible was written by humans, it was a fanciful tale, but nothing like you could see today. Only the odd or rare person sees visions or UFOs or miracles and they cannot be verified. Keys stories have no archeological validation. Outside the bible there is no evidence for the Exodus.

Are you saying if you saw your daughter getting raped you could stand by waiting for someone else to save her and then seeing no one else would do it, you would continue to watch because you had some axe to grind? That is what you are saying god does. Doesn't the bible say god loves us more than we love ourselves? Do you believe he is incapable of helping or lacks compassion? This behavior is very brutish.

The monastic movement was largely responsible for copying and maintaining the only libraries of knowledge that remained through the dark ages. Any ancient knowledge that we have presently from the Greeks, Romans etc. was generally brought through the monastic movement.

I disagree that God is not active in human affairs today, my conversion is proof he is even though you couldn't video it. I would hardly call videos 'verification', although I saw this cool one of a Jackalope. It was on video, honest!

I did not say any such thing about rape or anything like it. I said God put us here to handle things and as you seem to agree, we are screwing it up. (I'm leaping here a bit) It seems to me that He gave us all we need to do what is right and we simply choose not to. I think He is capable of helping, and has, we are simply refusing it, I say our actions are brutish not His. I see it as He has given us food to eat and we throw it in the garbage and starve ourselves from spite, I suspect he could force feed us but I also suspect it would have more detrimental effects than good for us long term. (similar to a welfare state) But yes, some of it I am grasping at and going with the 'overall story line', as I said previously I find this medium difficult to carry on meaningful discussion in.

I guess you are talking about palimpsests. The monastic movement destroyed pagan writings. It is only modern processes that allowed us to find such literature overlaid by monks with christian literature. There were decrees to destroy unauthorized books. This is why the gnostic gospels were almost unknown except for some faithful followers who hid them in jars and only in recent times were discovered. There is some pagan and christian literature that will be forever lost because of the church and monks.

Why are there no parting of the seas, people raised from the dead, the sun being stopped, healing of the blind, etc. etc? that is the miracles that you find in the bible, but now, nada.

So a man rapes a little girl and no one is around to see it except god. Why does god watch these tragedies and yet hedoes nothing? Is he human, can he not hear the little girl's cry?

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

The only 'proof" I have to offer is that I find the biblical text makes sense when considered in its entirety and in the context of history. And believe me, the people who knew me pre-40 are only slightly more surprised at my position today than I am I regularly tell people that I would not have entered the church that I did if I knew I was going to come out a believer

Given your criticism of what you seem to see as the scientific doctrine of atheism O&T, it is interesting to me that the pillar of your belief rests on such tenuous ground. That to you, the biblical text makes sense when considered in its entirety and in the context of history. This is insufficient proof for anyone endeavouring to comprehend the nature of reality.

The bible, filled as it is with references to the supernatural and the mythological, at no time shows a comprehension of the underpinnings of the natural world. And given none of 50 historians working at the time Jesus is alleged to have lived clearly mention him and his ministry, I'd be questioning the veracity of your historical claims.

You take an injured tone here as if suggesting only the greatest proofs will suffice to convince one such as you - and yet you are perfectly content to write off the scientific method and all its painstakingly accrued data. All the alternatives to biblical dogma can be summed up in the variable works of 4 atheist authors. It's a curious position to me.

And I agree with earlier posters that the OP and the immediate responses were by no means the vapid consumption of hogwash you implied in your initial strawman. It's rare for unsubstantiated claims not to get a mauling around here. And that brings me to your suggestion atheists claim they know things to be absolutely true. What you mean to say is that scientific method can prove things within varying degrees of certainty but can never prove them to be certainly true. Only religion claims to know anything absolutely and mysteriously, that something is the mind of an undefined god.

Honda VTR1000 over here - only 110hp. But more than enough for me...

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

What knowledge did the monastics save that was so helpful? The dark ages - yes when Christianity was in full power and control, when you could truly judge them by their fruits - Jesus told us to do that.

The Bible shows God as very active in human affairs. Yet since the invention of the video camera it is no more. That was another factor that led me to conclude the bible was written by humans, it was a fanciful tale, but nothing like you could see today. Only the odd or rare person sees visions or UFOs or miracles and they cannot be verified. Keys stories have no archeological validation. Outside the bible there is no evidence for the Exodus.

Are you saying if you saw your daughter getting raped you could stand by waiting for someone else to save her and then seeing no one else would do it, you would continue to watch because you had some axe to grind? That is what you are saying god does. Doesn't the bible say god loves us more than we love ourselves? Do you believe he is incapable of helping or lacks compassion? This behavior is very brutish.

The monastic movement was largely responsible for copying and maintaining the only libraries of knowledge that remained through the dark ages. Any ancient knowledge that we have presently from the Greeks, Romans etc. was generally brought through the monastic movement.

I disagree that God is not active in human affairs today, my conversion is proof he is even though you couldn't video it. I would hardly call videos 'verification', although I saw this cool one of a Jackalope. It was on video, honest!

I did not say any such thing about rape or anything like it. I said God put us here to handle things and as you seem to agree, we are screwing it up. (I'm leaping here a bit) It seems to me that He gave us all we need to do what is right and we simply choose not to. I think He is capable of helping, and has, we are simply refusing it, I say our actions are brutish not His. I see it as He has given us food to eat and we throw it in the garbage and starve ourselves from spite, I suspect he could force feed us but I also suspect it would have more detrimental effects than good for us long term. (similar to a welfare state) But yes, some of it I am grasping at and going with the 'overall story line', as I said previously I find this medium difficult to carry on meaningful discussion in.

I guess you are talking about palimpsests. The monastic movement destroyed pagan writings. It is only modern processes that allowed us to find such literature overlaid by monks with christian literature. There were decrees to destroy unauthorized books. This is why the gnostic gospels were almost unknown except for some faithful followers who hid them in jars and only in recent times were discovered. There is some pagan and christian literature that will be forever lost because of the church and monks.

Why are there no parting of the seas, people raised from the dead, the sun being stopped, healing of the blind, etc. etc? that is the miracles that you find in the bible, but now, nada.

So a man rapes a little girl and no one is around to see it except god. Why does god watch these tragedies and yet hedoes nothing? Is he human, can he not hear the little girl's cry?

Nope, not palimpseats although some of them turned out to be important. I am talking specifically about ancient works that were treated the same (or nearly the same) as biblical texts (many of the scribes were simply copiests). The works of Dionysis (sp?) for example were exclusively saved through the Irish monastic movement, there are numerous other examples.

The gnostic gospels were mostly unknown because they were never taken seriously. Similar to someone finding my personal journal 2000 years from now and declaring it 'hidden until now' lol

I have had the honor (sadly) of seeing history (I believe important history) dissapear. While it easy to declare it some type of devious plan it is more 'rational' that it simply happens. As we have sat and discussed since the history I missed was lost, we simply did not consider it would ever be lost, so we did not keep track of it closely. The Monks, generally, did.

Really, nada??? A couple comments here; first I simply think it is because we have become so thick skinned we would not recognize a miracle unless it comes as an alien disguised as the latest GM product ready to transform and do battle for us. The second is; I lived in a small town in southern Saskatchewan a few years back, a 4 year old girl went out the front door to say goodbye to her Dad as he drove away to work. The Dad did not notice her, it was -40c (for Americans that is DAM COLD!), see could not get back in the house. When her mother found her DEAD on the door step , and estimated 4 hours later the little girl was rushed to the hospital and was revived. I saw her regularly after that at the local hockey rink. There are many more examples, but much like the ability to listen to what people are really saying, I think we are too thick to see them when they happen.

As for the rape issue...I do not know. No one does, scripture is not clear on this. I can speculate that our choices have lead to a world that can produce a man capable of performing the unthinkable act you describe. I often wonder why we don't ask the question more often of "What kind of a society can create that type of individual." Another one I regularly wonder about is the carnage on highways (usually as I rip down the road on the R1 - lol), 100s of people a day die on highways but we find it acceptable. We like to decry specific, horrid examples as an argument against god but are nearly ambivilant to absolute carnage of automobiles, cigarettes, alcohol etc. I do not believe there is a pat answer to suffering in the world and I worry about discussing such a sensitive issue in this type of forum as it may be deeply personal for some and I would not want to unintentionally hurt anyone. (not trying to gloss over) I believe all suffering is for a purpose, but like all science, we may not understand it yet.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

Someone parting a a broad river would be sufficient miracle, especially if he could repeat it and proper experts could be there to witness it and examine it.

Your miracle involved doctors and nurses. I have heard of these miracles before and wonder why glory is given to an invisible god, when the doctor and nurses who did the work are standing right there performing the work. And it was not like Jesus did, by spiting on dirt and rubbing it into someones eyes, or levitical priest would do by mixing dirt from the floor of the temple with holy water and make a man's wife drink it to see if she was unfaithful (her belly & hips would swell). The doctors and nurses used tested procedures, which have been proven to work over and over and do not require any prayers or something magical. When my oncologist administered chemo to me and my tumors shrunk I gave him the credit. He and modern scientists. Brilliant men who figured out cures.

There are no theist on operating tables. If you truly believed Jesus who said you can say to this mountain move hence and you have the faith the size of a mustard seed, it will move, you would never need to go to a doctor again. Prayer is not anymore predictable than no prayer. Medicine on the other hand is statistically a better method.

You appear to be saying god is a mystery because he will not helping a suffering child. And the other typical answer as well, only man is at fault, never god and you will believe anything but that. For me I had to say from all evidence there is either no god or he is incompetent or does not care. And all three are a wash.

Thomas Jefferson, president of the United States wrote:

Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Someone parting a a broad river would be sufficient miracle, especially if he could repeat it and proper experts could be there to witness it and examine it.

Please indulge me for a moment; assume that my position is correct, there is an all knowing, all powerful, ever present God that created everything and was uncreated himself. You are suggesting that he should subject himself to our scrutiny because we want him to. That does not seem 'ratinal' (I love dropping that in there - lol) to me, it seems akin to when my children threw tantrums because I would not comply with their wishes.

ex-minister wrote:

Your miracle involved doctors and nurses. I have heard of these miracles before and wonder why glory is given to an invisible god, when the doctor and nurses who did the work are standing right there performing the work. And it was not like Jesus did, by spiting on dirt and rubbing it into someones eyes, or levitical priest would do by mixing dirt from the floor of the temple with holy water and make a man's wife drink it to see if she was unfaithful (her belly & hips would swell). The doctors and nurses used tested procedures, which have been proven to work over and over and do not require any prayers or something magical. When my oncologist administered chemo to me and my tumors shrunk I gave him the credit. He and modern scientists. Brilliant men who figured out cures.

So, it was Moses and not god that parted the Red/Dead Sea? What I see in scripture is god working through people in the world, from Pharoah's daughter saving Moses to the parting of the sea to Jesus' miracles and onward to the work of doctors (and potentially lawyers, although I struggle with that one -lol) I'm glad to hear your tumors shrunk but according to your statement above I can have grounds to pursue a lawsuit against the doctors who administered the same "tested procedures" on my Father's tumors that continued to grow and took his life. I'm guessing 'act of god' would jump in there at some point.

I agree with the brilliant men comment and do not want to demean their achievements. I do stop short of raising people, who like me, put their pants on one leg at a time, to the status of gods as we seem prone to doing in some cases.

ex-minister wrote:

There are no theist on operating tables. If you truly believed Jesus who said you can say to this mountain move hence and you have the faith the size of a mustard seed, it will move, you would never need to go to a doctor again. Prayer is not anymore predictable than no prayer. Medicine on the other hand is statistically a better method.

You are absolutely incorrect with your initial statement, I am a theist and have been on the operating table. I neither prayed to, nor worshiped the doctors who patched me up (no, it was not the fault of my R1 ) I did pray to god and thanked the surgeon.

ex-minister wrote:

You appear to be saying god is a mystery because he will not helping a suffering child. And the other typical answer as well, only man is at fault, never god and you will believe anything but that. For me I had to say from all evidence there is either no god or he is incompetent or does not care. And all three are a wash.

Nope, I say that 'some' things about god are a mystery. Again, indulge me for a moment, if I am correct about god then again it would not be 'rational' (see I did it again) that we would not find mysteries with him. One of the things I find interesting about us as people is how we constantly believe (through actions) that we have reached the pinnacle of intelligence. (My hard drive IS larger than 40mb, so stuff it Bill!! lol) The arrogance we continue to display about our level of knowledge of the world around us, appears to me as unreasonable (see, I didn't say 'not rational') especially in light of how many times we keep finding things that surprise us. I saw a quote one time that I forgot to write down but it was something like 'every man believes that the dawn of history starts with himself.' It seems to me that is relatively accurate (and if you work in construction you would see it every day.) I see our propensity to blame god, or disbelieve in him, because of bad things simply an excuse not to accept our own complicity which allows things to worsen with little responsibilty. We have made choices that allow many bad things to happen but still want to say 'what about earth quakes?' (I'll get back to Bob on that ) I say 'how can you (or me) spend $10/day on cigarettes when we know a child is dying right now of starvation? How can you (or me) go on a Sunday drive (at $5/gallon here) when children are contracting Hanson's disease that a $2 pill will prevent? etc.

I have more but it feels like I'm ranting ... lol

Ps; I agree with your Jefferson quote below (so don't poke at me for not capitalizing 'g'od - lol) I know he understands

Thomas Jefferson, president of the United States wrote:

Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear

## mod fixed format

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

Given your criticism of what you seem to see as the scientific doctrine of atheism O&T, it is interesting to me that the pillar of your belief rests on such tenuous ground.

If I am incorrect about the "scientific doctrine" please correct me, perhaps I have misread the posts attached to this thread? There is nothing 'tenuous' about it, it simply is. The "pillar" of my belief rests on my conversion experience , subsequently bolstered by my studies.

Quote:

That to you, the biblical text makes sense when considered in its entirety and in the context of history. This is insufficient proof for anyone endeavouring to comprehend the nature of reality.

I dissagree, it is only insufficient if you are looking for specific proof which would indicate that your mind is made up on the 'how'. Personal experience is an accepted method of proof.

Quote:

The bible, filled as it is with references to the supernatural and the mythological, at no time shows a comprehension of the underpinnings of the natural world. And given none of 50 historians working at the time Jesus is alleged to have lived clearly mention him and his ministry, I'd be questioning the veracity of your historical claims.

I also questioned them initially. I have no issue with references to supernatural and mythological, they are simply out of the experience of most it does not negate them. I also dissagree that the scripture 'at no time shows a comprehension of the underpinnings of the natural world'. Much is said about growing seasons etc. (I think that is not what you were getting at) but i also would not expect to find much about these things in a text written about child rearing, building power plants (please don't jump on that one, it is one of my few areas of expertise ) or any other text not written to explain the natural world. I see the scripture as a book about god's relationship with people, I would be surprised if it went into a description of how the natural world worked as opposed to relational concerns.

Quote:

You take an injured tone here as if suggesting only the greatest proofs will suffice to convince one such as you - and yet you are perfectly content to write off the scientific method and all its painstakingly accrued data. All the alternatives to biblical dogma can be summed up in the variable works of 4 atheist authors. It's a curious position to me.

Huh? Sorry, again why I do not like this type of chatting. I meant no injury or anything close, I certainly do not 'write off scientific method' I simply do not think it is the be-all-and-end-all to existence.

Quote:

And I agree with earlier posters that the OP and the immediate responses were by no means the vapid consumption of hogwash you implied in your initial strawman. It's rare for unsubstantiated claims not to get a mauling around here. And that brings me to your suggestion atheists claim they know things to be absolutely true. What you mean to say is that scientific method can prove things within varying degrees of certainty but can never prove them to be certainly true. Only religion claims to know anything absolutely and mysteriously, that something is the mind of an undefined god.

Yea, I initially just dropped in to have some fun poking at atheists but then I kind of took a shine to Bob Sorry for my initial "assholishness/dickheadedness" lol I do not believe that religion claims as you say, I actually believe we are far from that. We do take much on faith BUT only after (at least in my case) the initial arrows pointed me in that direction.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

Please indulge me for a moment; assume that my position is correct, there is an all knowing, all powerful, ever present God that created everything and was uncreated himself. You are suggesting that he should subject himself to our scrutiny because we want him to. That does not seem 'ratinal' (I love dropping that in there - lol) to me, it seems akin to when my children threw tantrums because I would not comply with their wishes.

Yes, he should subject himself to scrutiny. What was the brain created for? To just go along. And if salvation was really that important to him as the bible says perhaps he would be more interested in providing hard evidence rather than at death go BZZZ, you lose, go to hell. Why did Adam and Eve get to physically see him and talk to him and yet we get none of that. The bible makes extraordinary claims, it needs extraordinary evidence. Because just as convinced you are that Jesus is the one, Muslims think Allah is the one, Hindus think Vishnu is the one, the Sumerians thought Enki was the one (I like Enki the best). If you read testimonies from each religion you will see the experience and level of evidence is the same. Jesus is the best hide and go seek player ever. And only through death is full knowledge is granted with eternal consequences. That is a bad game in my book. At least your kids get to see you and touch you and know really who you are. These gods are not like that.

True, but sometimes parents are just wrong. And if they are good they will ask their child's forgiveness. This god would never do that.

OldandTired wrote:

So, it was Moses and not god that parted the Red/Dead Sea? What I see in scripture is god working through people in the world, from Pharoah's daughter saving Moses to the parting of the sea to Jesus' miracles and onward to the work of doctors (and potentially lawyers, although I struggle with that one -lol) I'm glad to hear your tumors shrunk but according to your statement above I can have grounds to pursue a lawsuit against the doctors who administered the same "tested procedures" on my Father's tumors that continued to grow and took his life. I'm guessing 'act of god' would jump in there at some point.

I agree with the brilliant men comment and do not want to demean their achievements. I do stop short of raising people, who like me, put their pants on one leg at a time, to the status of gods as we seem prone to doing in some cases.

God also sent plagues upon Egypt even killing every first born, that would include a lot of infants. And what was their crime? Being born under a Pharoah who god Himself harden Pharoah's heart so God could show them His glory. Got ego? It was a bloodbath of His own doing. It was His will. He didn't really need to kill so many innocents to set His people free.

I never look at doctors as gods. It is my decision what to do with my body. I ask loads of questions and my oncologist was what I would call humble in that he was always willing to learn. I told him of the things I found on the internet and he told me to bring them to him for consideration. I can relate to humans, but not to a perfect god who gets the credit when things go right, but it's the humans that are blamed when things go wrong. God gets his cake and eats it too. And why? Because he threatens us. If you don't believe in him and trust him and give your live to him because he is loving and perfect, you are destined for hell. Now if you really think about that doesn't that sound like an overbearing parent? which again leads me to believe the god of the bible is entirely man-made. He is much like the other gods in the bronze age. Petty, agitated, blaming, punishing and all the while he says it is only because He loves you. That is child abuse and I know that from experience and from others like me.

OldandTired wrote:

You are absolutely incorrect with your initial statement, I am a theist and have been on the operating table. I neither prayed to, nor worshiped the doctors who patched me up (no, it was not the fault of my R1 ) I did pray to god and thanked the surgeon.

So why did you need to go on an operating table? Why wouldn't prayer be sufficient? There are churches that practice that and from all the text in the bible it certainly seems right to me. This was a turn on the phrase there are no atheist in foxholes. There are no atheist on operating tables, belief in god should be enough.

OldandTired wrote:

Nope, I say that 'some' things about god are a mystery. Again, indulge me for a moment, if I am correct about god then again it would not be 'rational' (see I did it again) that we would not find mysteries with him. One of the things I find interesting about us as people is how we constantly believe (through actions) that we have reached the pinnacle of intelligence. (My hard drive IS larger than 40mb, so stuff it Bill!! lol) The arrogance we continue to display about our level of knowledge of the world around us, appears to me as unreasonable (see, I didn't say 'not rational') especially in light of how many times we keep finding things that surprise us. I saw a quote one time that I forgot to write down but it was something like 'every man believes that the dawn of history starts with himself.' It seems to me that is relatively accurate (and if you work in construction you would see it every day.) I see our propensity to blame god, or disbelieve in him, because of bad things simply an excuse not to accept our own complicity which allows things to worsen with little responsibilty. We have made choices that allow many bad things to happen but still want to say 'what about earth quakes?' (I'll get back to Bob on that ) I say 'how can you (or me) spend $10/day on cigarettes when we know a child is dying right now of starvation? How can you (or me) go on a Sunday drive (at $5/gallon here) when children are contracting Hanson's disease that a $2 pill will prevent? etc.

I have more but it feels like I'm ranting ... lol

Ps; I agree with your Jefferson quote below (so don't poke at me for not capitalizing 'g'od - lol) I know he understands

The brilliance of our science is that it is not arrogant. That is why even the best we know is called a theory. Science is always ready to change if better evidence come forward. If it wasn't like it would have become frozen hundreds of years ago (like religion). But it constantly is expanding. It is really very hard to keep up with. In in the few months I was under chemo there were multiple clinical trials. Should what I had come back the treatment today is far better and it wouldn't be months of chemo but one injection. My oncologist said he sees in the future that some cancers will be like a flu. You will get a shot and it will be gone.

How can you compare that to religion? It has been stagnate for 2000 years. It adds nothing, but the same 'old & tired' (see what I did) platitudes.

Christianity is arrogant in believing they have the truth. They say it is all right there in the bible. God said it, I believe it and that is good enough for me. That is truly arrogant on so many levels. To think I possess the truth over other humans, that I have an inside track with the creator of all things and it is based mostly on the gut and subjective perceptions that is definitely arrogant.

Yes it is a great quote.

Thomas Jefferson, president of the United States wrote:

Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Huh, one of the things I find interesting is how two (seemingly) sensible people can have diametrically opposed opinions. I say if he is who I believe he is, he is fully within his right/morality/justification etc. to do as he sees fit because he definitely knows what is best for me/us.

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What was the brain created for? To just go along.

To do exactly what we are doing, I think, but I'm not god so I do not know specifically what it was created for.

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And if salvation was really that important to him as the bible says perhaps he would be more interested in providing hard evidence rather than at death go BZZZ, you lose, go to hell.

And here is the root of it, I believe. Scripture is clear on the importance of faith yet you are suggesting that it should be destroyed. "Hard evidence" as you describe it is the opposite of faith, yet he has already done as you require and we still do not believe. What you are actually suggesting that, every generation, to every specific person, for all time, god should present himself for inspection and prove to that individual his existence. The 'proof' was given 2000 years ago and today we sit and say 'its not true', 'that didn't happen', 'I don't accept this proof or that proof.' God could remove all doubt in everyone but scripture indicates that he does not want mindless automatons, as the case would be, but relationship with his created. But I also believe we have become so full of ourselves as a society that this is no longer possible for us.

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Why did Adam and Eve get to physically see him and talk to him and yet we get none of that.

Regardless of the claim it should require no more evidence than is necessary.

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Because just as convinced you are that Jesus is the one, Muslims think Allah is the one, Hindus think Vishnu is the one, the Sumerians thought Enki was the one (I like Enki the best). If you read testimonies from each religion you will see the experience and level of evidence is the same. Jesus is the best hide and go seek player ever.

Muslims, Christians and Jews agree...up to Jesus. I have read the 'testimonies' from those religions, and more, and do not agree. I would hope that we could dismiss the ones that there is zero evidence that the 'person' at least never existed (unlike Buddism for example).

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And only through death is full knowledge is granted with eternal consequences.

But you seem o.k. with never attaining 'full knowledge' of science. I believe we have been given enough knowledge to make the decision but we simply refuse to.

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That is a bad game in my book. At least your kids get to see you and touch you and know really who you are. These gods are not like that.

"These gods" are not, God has no reason to apologize, he is correct. We simply are not omnipotent, omnicient and therefore cannot see it (although we believe we are).

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God also sent plagues upon Egypt even killing every first born, that would include a lot of infants. And what was their crime?

Being born under a Pharoah who god Himself harden Pharoah's heart so God could show them His glory. Got ego? It was a bloodbath of His own doing. It was His will. He didn't really need to kill so many innocents to set His people free.

You are applying your morality to god, that is not reasonable as we all know that societal morality changes (I maintain that god's does not) therefore it does not makes sense for me to look at any historical event and declare it a crime or immoral. It is what happened and there was a reason (see Exodus) wether I agree with the tactics of the aforementioned all powerful being is simply me saying "I would have done it differently" (again, without having the level of knowledge that is ascribed to god), I am not god.

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God gets his cake and eats it too. And why? Because he threatens us. If you don't believe in him and trust him and give your live to him because he is loving and perfect, you are destined for hell. Now if you really think about that doesn't that sound like an overbearing parent? which again leads me to believe the god of the bible is entirely man-made. He is much like the other gods in the bronze age. Petty, agitated, blaming, punishing and all the while he says it is only because He loves you. That is child abuse and I know that from experience and from others like me.

I'm sorry for your experiences. But I see it differently, is your parent overbearing when he/she says 'if you touch that hot burner you will be injured'? Here's a true story for you (Hope I don't get long winded)

3 parents (I am very close to all 3) had 3 sons nearly the same age. All three boys got involved in drugs at an early age, all three parents were devastated and wanted to help their boys out of this error. The first parent said "I will do anything I can to help you son" and helped him get an apartment (they were in their 20's at this point) and jobs ("jobs" because he kept being fired for being late, not showing up, poor work habits etc.), the second parent said "I will do all I can to help you son" and had the boy and his girlfriend move in with him, the boy does not work or help out. There is constant tension because of his ongoing drug abuse and further damage to the extended family for various reasons including theft and constant begging for money. The third parent said "I will do all I can to help you son BUT you need to understand that members of this family do not steal, they are respectful and productive and do not do drugs. It is entirely your decision but you need to decide if you are a member of this family or not and if not you need to live somewhere else." The boy got up, packed his bag and lived in teh drug culture for nearly two years before coming home and agreeing to abide by "the rules" (several years of difficulty remained) Today the boys are all near 30, the first two have changed little, the third is an awesome young man preparing to get married next year and has a good career and a great relationship with his entire family. I can assure you it was the hardest thing the parent ever did to have that chat with his son and spent many sleepless nights wondering if he get ANOTHER call from the police having arrested his son, or worse, but I can also tell you that the parent would do exactly the same thing again.

God explaining the results of our decisions to us does not make him an overbearing parent or a child abuser, it makes him a loving and caring parent who hopes for our best but understands that we must come to those decisions on our own, not through his coercion. I remain pained as I watch my two friends deal with the results of their sons decisions. I understand that all these cases are different but, having lived through this one, it exemplifies what god does with us. He simply lays out what will happen and we decide, some decide to follow, some decide to rebel. I can assure you that all these parents love their sons desperatly and have shown it many times over, they have shown much "proof" to the boys of where they will end up and had all kinds of interventions etc. but the succesful one is the only one of the three that allowed the boy to be responsible for himself.

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So why did you need to go on an operating table? Why wouldn't prayer be sufficient? There are churches that practice that and from all the text in the bible it certainly seems right to me. This was a turn on the phrase there are no atheist in foxholes. There are no atheist on operating tables, belief in god should be enough.

I knew what the turned phrase was I believe that god sends the help, as I have stated before. I enjoy the joke about the guy who drowned and went to heaven and said "god why did you let me drown?" the reply was "I sent two boats and a helicopter but you refused them. This seems inline with scripture to me, as I'm sure you know, the Egyptian plagues all have potential 'natural' explanations.

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The brilliance of our science is that it is not arrogant. That is why even the best we know is called a theory.

Huh?? "You will never need a hard drive bigger than 40mb!" lol

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Science is always ready to change if better evidence come forward. If it wasn't like it would have become frozen hundreds of years ago (like religion).

again, huh? I think it was Bob who said (sorry , rushing to get to work or I would look it up ) religion has changed (or maybe AtheistExt), but I agree science changes.

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But it constantly is expanding. It is really very hard to keep up with. In in the few months I was under chemo there were multiple clinical trials. Should what I had come back the treatment today is far better and it wouldn't be months of chemo but one injection. My oncologist said he sees in the future that some cancers will be like a flu. You will get a shot and it will be gone.

Your oncologist may be right, but it is likely that it will only be if there is tons of money to be made by it.

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How can you compare that to religion? It has been stagnate for 2000 years. It adds nothing,

Again, see Bob's comment but I suggest that if it is fundamentally correct to begin with their is no need to change. Gravitational theory has not changed much.

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but the same 'old & tired' (see what I did) platitudes.

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Christianity is arrogant in believing they have the truth. They say it is all right there in the bible. God said it, I believe it and that is good enough for me. That is truly arrogant on so many levels. To think I possess the truth over other humans, that I have an inside track with the creator of all things and it is based mostly on the gut and subjective perceptions that is definitely arrogant.

Sorry I don't see it that way, but if I did I would have to say that it is then no different than atheists who believe they are correct in knowing their is no god.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

The Canadian part must be Quebec because we seem to be struggling with english.

Yawn. No. Any problem with English comprehension is yours.

OldandTired wrote:

Please feel free to compare the demographics of the Flat Earth society to religion

Right back at you. You'll find they are remarkably similar. You'll also find that the FES' existence and argument refute your contention that a known fact is never argued, and that your attempt to change the topic and simultaneously move the goal post has failed.

So what's next for this idiot? Perhaps he'll try and prove god by talking about oranges in Antarctica?

At least his name exemplifies his posted content. Old and tired indeed.

OandT (get some rest, you'll feel better), in a couple of posts you have referred to me acknowledging that Religion "does change", implying, from the context of the posts, that it can change as Science does.

What statement of mine are you basing that on?

The changes that religion does occasionally make to its doctrine are usually done reluctantly, since it claims to have access to "eternal truths".

Sometimes they might be done in response to pressure from secular authorities to stop practices which more enlightened secular morality sees as abhorrent.

They are not done as part of a systematic and dedicated search for truth, as in Science.

======

There is no 'proof' of God or his 'goodness' in the Bible.

At most, on face value, you have reports of unexplained phenomena. Nothing remotely requiring the existence of a omni- anything being.

The crucifiction scenario does not prove God's love - it is perfectly consistent with an incompetent, uncaring, or even hateful God.

The archeological and historical evidence currently suggests there was no exile in Egypt, no Moses, no Exodus, no collapse of the Walls of Jericho, etc, etc.

Genesis proves the writers had no understanding of the origin and nature of the Universe and the Earth and Sun and Life itself.

The OT in particular shows deeply warped morality, not surprising since basing your ethics on the imagined edicts of an imagined being, rather than compassion and an understanding of what causes harm and distress to our fellows is a crappy idea.

Slavery, and beating your slaves, is clearly OK with God, as is rape and torture.

And all you have to argue against us are the oldest and most tired arguments....

The Canadian part must be Quebec because we seem to be struggling with english.

Yawn. No. Any problem with English comprehension is yours.

OldandTired wrote:

Please feel free to compare the demographics of the Flat Earth society to religion

Right back at you. You'll find they are remarkably similar. You'll also find that the FES' existence and argument refute your contention that a known fact is never argued, and that your attempt to change the topic and simultaneously move the goal post has failed. So what's next for this idiot? Perhaps he'll try and prove god by talking about oranges in Antarctica? At least his name exemplifies his posted content. Old and tired indeed.

I believe you brought up the FES but clearly my feeble intellect is no match for you. The name calling and arrogance has proven the Atheist position, I concede. You can return to your gaming now where you will probably recognize this...

/ignore

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

As an aside, if you don't like being insulted, don't throw the first punch. It never ceases to amaze me just how many theists can so quickly and easily be reduced to name calling, and then have the sheer hypocrisy to whine when insults start flying back. Litlle pussy bitches, all of them.

Yay sarcasm. As an aside, if you don't like being insulted, don't throw the first punch. It never ceases to amaze me just how many theists can so quickly and easily be reduced to name calling, and then have the sheer hypocrisy to whine when insults start flying back. Litlle pussy bitches, all of them.

Wait a minute, thought dude worked in construction ?

Vastet, watch out, if you were on the construction site, the red-blooded Americans would not be having any of this.

I work in construction as well. Have had some pretty heated discussions. Considering the fact that a New Jersey born Atheist in the Bible belt of Tennessee is pretty out of place.

Alot of the redneck theist arguments make me feel pretty old and tired.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

I've worked on many construction sites. Always as security. I assure you it would be exceptionally difficult to cause me any real trouble. And if any were attempted, lets just say certain tools may vanish or suffer malfunctions. And construction sites are notoriously dangerous.

And here is the root of it, I believe. Scripture is clear on the importance of faith yet you are suggesting that it should be destroyed. "Hard evidence" as you describe it is the opposite of faith, yet he has already done as you require and we still do not believe. What you are actually suggesting that, every generation, to every specific person, for all time, god should present himself for inspection and prove to that individual his existence. The 'proof' was given 2000 years ago and today we sit and say 'its not true', 'that didn't happen', 'I don't accept this proof or that proof.' God could remove all doubt in everyone but scripture indicates that he does not want mindless automatons, as the case would be, but relationship with his created. But I also believe we have become so full of ourselves as a society that this is no longer possible for us.

There was no proof 2000 years ago, and we would not be mindless automatons. It is said, in that obvious book, that knowledge will make you free. Yeah, evidently all knowledge except that of God.

And I don't see the problem with "every generation...". There is no 'transfer' of godly evidence. Simply you are born in a believer family, told "believe this because there's no other choice", and you believe. It's not random that religions are tied to a place, and the people follows a religion as a tradition. But (scientific) knowledge can free us from religion (thanks john 8:32).

btw a ducati ms is 2 cylinders, big torque. I don't know how much an R1 would be good against that in a tortuous mountain road. Also, I have a suzuki 750.

It's a typical theist mistake to misapply faith as above. In reality, one cannot have faith in something they don't believe exists. Without the knowledge of a god, it is impossible to have faith in one. Theists believe in a god, so they can have faith in it. But those of us not indoctrinated, or who have broken free of indoctrination, do not believe in a god, and quite simply cannot have faith in one. In order to have faith we'd first need belief. In order to believe we need evidence there is something to believe in. Knowledge of the existence of a god would allow us to choose whether or not to have faith in it. Denying us knowledge denies us the choice, which means if there is a god, it either doesn't perceive devotion to it or it doesn't care about devotion to it. Or it's a cruel and unloving being. Whichever, devotion is clearly as irrelevant and ridiculous as it is a waste of resources.

And here is the root of it, I believe. Scripture is clear on the importance of faith yet you are suggesting that it should be destroyed. "Hard evidence" as you describe it is the opposite of faith, yet he has already done as you require and we still do not believe. What you are actually suggesting that, every generation, to every specific person, for all time, god should present himself for inspection and prove to that individual his existence. The 'proof' was given 2000 years ago and today we sit and say 'its not true', 'that didn't happen', 'I don't accept this proof or that proof.' God could remove all doubt in everyone but scripture indicates that he does not want mindless automatons, as the case would be, but relationship with his created. But I also believe we have become so full of ourselves as a society that this is no longer possible for us.

So believing in something that may or may not exist is better than knowing it exists. I might be cool with that, if it wasn't for severe and eternal punishment on such a gamble. I don't know if aliens exist, but my eternal life doesn't depend on it. Yes, proof to each individual is necessary if God so loves each individual. If he doesn't and just wants a select few than OK then because as you say we cannot question such a being. Big and Dumb is how he likes his sheeple. Only those who believe, not truly question, will be saved.

O&T wrote:

Gen 3

The talking snake is why we don't get the same clear evidence that Adam and Eve got? Well, that is a lot to swallow. If creationism is true why aren't there still talking snakes?

O&T wrote:

Regardless of the claim it should require no more evidence than is necessary.

So god gives out just enough evidence that only a remnant of people will believe. He must have designed hell to be quite large. Such an intelligent designer. Most of what he makes fails.

O&T wrote:

Muslims, Christians and Jews agree...up to Jesus. I have read the 'testimonies' from those religions, and more, and do not agree. I would hope that we could dismiss the ones that there is zero evidence that the 'person' at least never existed (unlike Buddism for example).

There is more historical evidence for Mohammed than Jesus. So if the truth is set by who we have more evidence for Mohammed wins. Of course, Joe Pesci is even better.

O&T wrote:

You are applying your morality to god, that is not reasonable as we all know that societal morality changes (I maintain that god's does not) therefore it does not makes sense for me to look at any historical event and declare it a crime or immoral. It is what happened and there was a reason (see Exodus) wether I agree with the tactics of the aforementioned all powerful being is simply me saying "I would have done it differently" (again, without having the level of knowledge that is ascribed to god), I am not god.

So this is the scary part. If you felt god was telling you to kill your son as a sacrifice to him, like Abraham, you would do it. There is really nothing that would stop you. That is what these primitive desert people did. They heard god tell them to slaughter entire towns including men, women, pregnant women, innocent children and also to save young virgin women for them to essentially marry and rape. That god is a real bad one and if you choose to follow him you really don't have anything to stop you from doing just about anything if you hear his voice. It is interesting you give me the parable of the 3 parents as if we can understand god. So you are picky and choosing when convenient there. I don't have to pull out a parable from my life experiences. Instead I give you the bible and god is shown as one mean ass bastard. If you changed your parable and made those parents behave like god did in the bible you would say "damn those parent should be put in jail or worse". But as I said before god gets a pass and I must obey or be damned to hell. Well, my Christian experience was hell and I know others that were like me. Benjamin Franklin said before marriage keep your eyes wide open but after marriage keep them half closed. To have a relationship with god you must keep them half closed from the get go.

O&T wrote:

This seems inline with scripture to me, as I'm sure you know, the Egyptian plagues all have potential 'natural' explanations.

Interesting. Then the bible giving god the credit for those is a lie?The bible is not a perfect book? Thank you.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

btw a ducati ms is 2 cylinders, big torque. I don't know how much an R1 would be good against that in a tortuous mountain road. Also, I have a suzuki 750.

Agreed. Ducati's strength. Of course I would set the 1198 Duc against the R1. Must have been some superbike races this summer. I used to be an avid watcher, but than SpeedVision went Nascar. Not a fan of only going left in a circle. Instead give me lots of curves.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

And I don't see the problem with "every generation...". There is no 'transfer' of godly evidence. Simply you are born in a believer family, told "believe this because there's no other choice", and you believe. It's not random that religions are tied to a place, and the people follows a religion as a tradition. But (scientific) knowledge can free us from religion (thanks john 8:32).

I was not born into a believer family, I had little to no religious influence in my life until nearly 40 years old, up to that point I thought much as you do.

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btw a ducati ms is 2 cylinders, big torque. I don't know how much an R1 would be good against that in a tortuous mountain road. Also, I have a suzuki 750.

Yep, one of the guys I ride with has an 1198...it is a beast, can take me off the line but not so much in the mountains (rockies in Alberta). At speed he the torque difference is not so obvious.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

I've worked on many construction sites. Always as security. I assure you it would be exceptionally difficult to cause me any real trouble. And if any were attempted, lets just say certain tools may vanish or suffer malfunctions. And construction sites are notoriously dangerous.

I consult on industrial construction sites across the U.S. and Canada, send me a pm with the site your at and if I get there I would be happy to carry on this chat in person.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

Thanks for the concern Bob but , as you pointed out, I'm much younger than you so don't need to rest that much

Quote:

in a couple of posts you have referred to me acknowledging that Religion "does change", implying, from the context of the posts, that it can change as Science does.

What statement of mine are you basing that on?

My apologies, I was too lazy to look back see who it actually was (please note that I said I 'thought' it was you). I looked and it was an early comment by Harley.

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They are not done as part of a systematic and dedicated search for truth, as in Science.

I guess I would have to know precisely what you consider some of the changes. Some changes were made due to a more advanced understanding of the existing evidence (Trinity at Nicea for example)

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There is no 'proof' of God or his 'goodness' in the Bible.

Jesus declaring the greatest commandment being 'love your neighbor' is not proof of goodness? It seems to me it is. As for 'proof' of God in the bible, well if you believe what it says there is.

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At most, on face value, you have reports of unexplained phenomena. Nothing remotely requiring the existence of a omni- anything being.

Unless you accept the explanation given.

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The crucifiction scenario does not prove God's love - it is perfectly consistent with an incompetent, uncaring, or even hateful God.

Unless you accept the explanation given.

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The archeological and historical evidence currently suggests there was no exile in Egypt, no Moses, no Exodus, no collapse of the Walls of Jericho, etc, etc.

"present archeological evidence" (unless I am missing some, which is entirely possible) is some archeologists pushing that a 'lack of evidence' is evidence. Seems like an unusual position for someone who claims to refute religion on a lack hard evidence.

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Genesis proves the writers had no understanding of the origin and nature of the Universe and the Earth and Sun and Life itself.

Really? Specifically which part/verses? But I will also suggest that it is not intended to explain the details of physical creation any more than a horse training book would be expected to explain the evolution/creation of a the horse.

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The OT in particular shows deeply warped morality, not surprising since basing your ethics on the imagined edicts of an imagined being, rather than compassion and an understanding of what causes harm and distress to our fellows is a crappy idea.

Interesting point as you are actually basing your opinion on your personal morality which would be significantly different if you lived in biblical times.

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Slavery, and beating your slaves, is clearly OK with God, as is rape and torture.

Nope, it clearly was an acceptable morality of the day though, slavery until very recently was morally acceptable to a significant number of people. Your morality is different today and according to your statement above it forms part of an "enlightened secular morality", yet slavery still happens and is of a much more heinous kind, sexual slavery is rampant today. If, as you propose God does not exist, clearly the "enlightened secular morality" includes acceptance of sexual slavery, even sexual tourism. I'll take God's morality any day.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

So believing in something that may or may not exist is better than knowing it exists. I might be cool with that, if it wasn't for severe and eternal punishment on such a gamble. I don't know if aliens exist, but my eternal life doesn't depend on it. Yes, proof to each individual is necessary if God so loves each individual. If he doesn't and just wants a select few than OK then because as you say we cannot question such a being. Big and Dumb is how he likes his sheeple. Only those who believe, not truly question, will be saved.

I do not believe that "truly question" means to ignore evidence simply because it does not sit well with me or that I had my feelings hurt. To me "truly question" means question hard and serious and then determine if there is reason to believe what it purports. I believe there is enough evidence to believe scripture, while not hard "proof" as you require, it does offer enough to make sense.

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The talking snake is why we don't get the same clear evidence that Adam and Eve got? Well, that is a lot to swallow. If creationism is true why aren't there still talking snakes?

Same reason there are still monkeys I guess But there is a point, you simply state "that is a lot to swallow", you do not believe because you have not seen it happen. I don't believe that is reasonable, it may be beyond our personal experience but I am willing to believe things beyond my personal experience.

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So god gives out just enough evidence that only a remnant of people will believe. He must have designed hell to be quite large. Such an intelligent designer. Most of what he makes fails.

Unless he made it to work that way. As for hell, no idea, I'm not even sure I believe in the common idea of hell.

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There is more historical evidence for Mohammed than Jesus. So if the truth is set by who we have more evidence for Mohammed wins. Of course, Joe Pesci is even better.

Not 'more' , any. I don't think there is any real scholar today that questions the existence of either Jesus or Mohammad. I like Joe Pesci but he's sooo short.

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So this is the scary part. If you felt god was telling you to kill your son as a sacrifice to him, like Abraham, you would do it. There is really nothing that would stop you. That is what these primitive desert people did. They heard god tell them to slaughter entire towns including men, women, pregnant women, innocent children and also to save young virgin women for them to essentially marry and rape. That god is a real bad one and if you choose to follow him you really don't have anything to stop you from doing just about anything if you hear his voice.

It is not isolated to primitive desert people, or to god's voice. People kill each other in various, terrible ways - lots try to blame it on 'religion' but it is simply our worldly nature. But I understand your concern, I actually have it also. I worry that there are actually people out there that react to their 'feelings' as you describe. I know it has nothing to do with 'feelings' but without the actual experience some could mistake their 'feeling' for the voice of god. It would be as wrong as Hitler was, but it could still happen, but it would also have no more to do with god than if someone 'felt' that Ex-minister was telling them to do any of those things and went and did them in your name. I do worry about this.

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It is interesting you give me the parable of the 3 parents as if we can understand god. So you are picky and choosing when convenient there. I don't have to pull out a parable from my life experiences. Instead I give you the bible and god is shown as one mean ass bastard. If you changed your parable and made those parents behave like god did in the bible you would say "damn those parent should be put in jail or worse". But as I said before god gets a pass and I must obey or be damned to hell. Well, my Christian experience was hell and I know others that were like me. Benjamin Franklin said before marriage keep your eyes wide open but after marriage keep them half closed. To have a relationship with god you must keep them half closed from the get go. {quote}This seems inline with scripture to me, as I'm sure you know, the Egyptian plagues all have potential 'natural' explanations.{/quote}Interesting. Then the bible giving god the credit for those is a lie?The bible is not a perfect book? Thank you.

Never said any such thing actually. Was simply suggesting that anyone who has their mind made up can find reasons to support their disbelief. Which is also why I do not quote the bible to you, I'm guessing you do not believe it? Although the amount you quote it gives me hope I used the real life experience in hopes you would see that it is possible that the thing that hurts us can actually be good for us in the long run. I see the events quit similar to what god did, "here's a nice home with all you want in it, don't do theses things and you can live here" - bad things ensued, kid moves out, more bad things ensued, kid came back, good things happen. Seems the same as the garden story to me. I am also o.k. with the idea that the 'long run' may be long enough that I have zero understanding of it. I am truly sorry for your christian experience and I know the church can and has hurt people but to blame all religion is akin to blaming all women if your marriage is bad (I know some do). The couple churches I have been involved in truly love people and are intent on sharing that love...that is where I see Jesus. If the treatment I have experienced in the conversations here are an indication of an "enlightened secular morality", I will choose church morality any day. (not all mind you, Bob and Ex are mind of fun, even harley might be growing on me )

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

Old and Tired, I noticed that you have added a quotation by Sam Harris to your signature.

Do you agree with some of the stances of Sam Harris (i.e. in regards to finding morality through neuroscience, one book he wrote about lying and it's links to other serious crimes, etc. ) ?

Or did that just happen to be a quote you liked ?

Inquiring construction workers, riding bikes for old fat men would like to know.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

Old and Tired, I noticed that you have added a quotation by Sam Harris to your signature.

Do you agree with some of the stances of Sam Harris (i.e. in regards to finding morality through neuroscience, one book he wrote about lying and it's links to other serious crimes, etc. ) ?

Or did that just happen to be a quote you liked ?

Inquiring construction workers, riding bikes for old fat men would like to know.

In general I do not agree with much he has to say, I use the quote as an example of why. Name calling is hardly a good method of argument yet it seems to be popular. His 'letter' book seems popular yet it starts off with name calling...perhaps it is me who is 'old and tired', but I'm o.k. with it if the alternative is 'boisterous and obnoxious'.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

Old and Tired, I noticed that you have added a quotation by Sam Harris to your signature.

Do you agree with some of the stances of Sam Harris (i.e. in regards to finding morality through neuroscience, one book he wrote about lying and it's links to other serious crimes, etc. ) ?

Or did that just happen to be a quote you liked ?

Inquiring construction workers, riding bikes for old fat men would like to know.

In general I do not agree with much he has to say, I use the quote as an example of why. Name calling is hardly a good method of argument yet it seems to be popular. His 'letter' book seems popular yet it starts off with name calling...perhaps it is me who is 'old and tired', but I'm o.k. with it if the alternative is 'boisterous and obnoxious'.

I have not actually read the "Letters to a Christian Nation" nor "The Moral Landscape". I have read the End of Faith and heard him speak in a few interviews.

Of all the "four horsemen" as they call them, he is probably the one that I have the least knowledge about. I know that I had a few reservations about some of his ideas, but have not read enough of his work to form a very valid opinion of him one way or the other.

Hitchens, Dawkins and Dennett are pretty much at the top of my list. I also like Vic Stenger, when it comes to Atheist writers.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

I've worked on many construction sites. Always as security. I assure you it would be exceptionally difficult to cause me any real trouble. And if any were attempted, lets just say certain tools may vanish or suffer malfunctions. And construction sites are notoriously dangerous.

I consult on industrial construction sites across the U.S. and Canada, send me a pm with the site your at and if I get there I would be happy to carry on this chat in person.

Why would I invite a conversation at work and risk trouble when I can deal with things in my spare time? If you really must do a talk in person, Tim Hortons would be a better location. There's one up the road from me. Get a coffee, go for a walk.

I've worked on many construction sites. Always as security. I assure you it would be exceptionally difficult to cause me any real trouble. And if any were attempted, lets just say certain tools may vanish or suffer malfunctions. And construction sites are notoriously dangerous.

I consult on industrial construction sites across the U.S. and Canada, send me a pm with the site your at and if I get there I would be happy to carry on this chat in person.

Why would I invite a conversation at work and risk trouble when I can deal with things in my spare time? If you really must do a talk in person, Tim Hortons would be a better location. There's one up the road from me. Get a coffee, go for a walk.

Not sure why a conversation would invite trouble? I'd be happy to meet at Tim's or where ever, I always find in person chats much more productive than on-line ones, real-time feedback and all that. Again, assuming you are close to one of the sites that I frequent, send me a pm and we can arrange to meet.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris

Not alot of heavy industrial construction going on in Ontario at the moment, sadly. I live on the east coast but spend most of my time at the moment split between Edmonton, Calgary and Houston.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris