"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Is the Path Conditioned or Unconditioned?“Ariyo panāyye, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato udāhu asaṅkhato”ti?“Is the Eightfold Path conditioned or is it unconditioned?”

The Path Is ConditionedTo this question, Dhammadinnā gave the following answer:“Ariyo kho, āvuso Visākha, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato”ti.“Friend Visākha, the Eightfold Path is conditioned.”

The Eightfold Path is conditioned and proceeds from causes, such as insight. Only nibbāna is unconditioned. This nibbāna symbolises supreme bliss and tranquillity because the faculty of the Noble Path gives no chance for the occurrence of defilements. Tranquillity, not being an occurrence, cannot be said to have arisen from a cause. What is meant by this nibbāna is that no new existence comprising unsatisfactory mind and matter will arise, because defilements, which are its cause, have become extinct, thereby bringing forth a blissful state of freedom from all forms of craving and human passion. This also cannot be called the cause of conditioned phenomena since there is no incidence or occurrence. It should only be regarded as the unconditioned, the unmade, which is not produced.”

“Nāgasena, there are things in the world that have come into existence through kamma, others are the result of a cause, and others are produced by season. Tell me, is there anything that does not fall into either of these three categories?”“There are two such things, O king; space and nibbāna.”

“Do not, Venerable Nāgasena, corrupt the words of the Conqueror, or answer a question without knowing what you are saying!” “What have I said, O king, that you speak to me thus?”

“Venerable sir, it is right what you say about space but with hundreds of reasons did the Blessed One proclaim to his disciples the way to the realisation of nibbāna and yet you say that nibbāna is not the result of any cause.” “It is true, O king, that in many ways did the Blessed One point out a way to the realisation of nibbāna, but he did not point out a cause for the arising of nibbāna.”

“Here, Nāgasena, we go from darkness to greater darkness; from uncertainty to utter confusion. If there is a father of a child we would expect to find a father of the father. Just so, if there is a cause for the realisation of nibbāna we would expect to find a cause for its arising.”“Nibbāna, O king, is unconstructed, therefore no cause has been pointed out for its production. It cannot be said of nibbāna that it has arisen or can arise; that it is past, present, or future; or cognizable by the eye, ear, nose, tongue, or body.”

“Then, Nāgasena, nibbāna is a condition that does not exist!” “Nibbāna does exist, O king, and can be cognized by the mind. A noble disciple whose mind is pure, lofty, sincere, unobstructed and free from craving can attain nibbāna.”

“Then explain by means of similes what nibbāna is.”“Is there such a thing as the wind?”

“Yes there is.” “Then explain by means of similes what the wind is.”

“It is not possible to explain what the wind is by means of similes but it exists all the same.”“Just so, O king, nibbāna exists but it is impossible to describe.”

"Revelation" means removal of obscurations which can also be said to be cessations because what ceased is what obscures.The obscured is not the removal of obscurations because the removal of obscurations is what reveals the obscured.

"Revelation" means removal of obscurations which can also be said to be cessations because what ceased is what obscures.The obscured is not the removal of obscurations because the removal of obscurations is what reveals the obscured.

Dear GroundI would agree, however I cannot recall a sutta stating this as clearly as your good self, do you or another member know of one, please?

Great post Ven Bhikkhu Pesala and thanks for the useful thread, Alex123 metta

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

"Revelation" means removal of obscurations which can also be said to be cessations because what ceased is what obscures.The obscured is not the removal of obscurations because the removal of obscurations is what reveals the obscured.

Sarva wrote:Dear GroundI would agree, however I cannot recall a sutta stating this as clearly as your good self, do you or another member know of one, please?

Hi SarvaIt is a logical consequence of the quotes of the opening post. Or can you conceive of another possibility?

What is called "nibbana" that may become manifest when the body is alive must be a "purified" mode of operation that is a concomitant of the afflictions/obscuration (passions) from the very beginning.

So it is nothing to be seen, perceived but a mode of operation that is called "unconditioned" within the context of this living body but which of course is conditioned by this living body without which there could not be a mode of operation at all.

Kenshou wrote:I figure, nibbana is what happens when we stop creating. When a flame goes out do we say that non-flameness has been created? That would be rather backwards.

Thanks for good point. But don't the suttas state that Nibbāna always exists. Nibbāna cannot be "what happens when..."

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

I have a hunch that Awakening can, in theory, occur instantly if one does all the right things.

Some may say that we have accumulated so many defilements that it would take us a long time to get rid of them is contradicted in Ptsm XXIII On Convergence where it clearly states that: one cannot abandon past defilements since they are no more, one cannot abandon future defilements because they do not yet exist, and one cannot abandon present defilements. "He does not abandon past defilements, he does not abandon future defilements, he does not abandon presently-arisen defilements." Pg 389

Since everything is anicca, an arisen defilement ceases the next moment. So there isn't some permanent storehouse that must be emptied (an impossible task) for Awakening to occur. It is also said in AN1.49 that citta is already shining (pabhassara cittaṃ) but is covered with adventitious defilements.

So it is not matter of removing past/future/present defilements.It is not a matter of building pure citta.It is not a matter of building/creating/Nibbāna.

It could be a matter of simply abiding in nibbāna with luminous mind that already is. But of course this requires very deep insight that can take some people far longer than others to realize.

IMHO.

With metta,

Alex

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Kenshou wrote:I figure, nibbana is what happens when we stop creating. When a flame goes out do we say that non-flameness has been created? That would be rather backwards.

Thanks for good point. But don't the suttas state that Nibbāna always exists. Nibbāna cannot be "what happens when..."

Yes it can be something that happens when:

o You begin living your life in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Patho And, you realize that there is no "you" to begin with, and that there never was a you.o And, you cease clinging to all the aggregates.o And, you learn to dwell in emptiness.

Nobody goes anywhere when this happens. There are no invitations sent out, and no one attends such an event. But unbinding and release both happen when....

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Kenshou wrote:I figure, nibbana is what happens when we stop creating. When a flame goes out do we say that non-flameness has been created? That would be rather backwards.

Thanks for good point. But don't the suttas state that Nibbāna always exists. Nibbāna cannot be "what happens when..."

Yes it can be something that happens when:

o You begin living your life in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Patho And, you realize that there is no "you" to begin with, and that there never was a you.o And, you cease clinging to all the aggregates.o And, you learn to dwell in emptiness.

Nobody goes anywhere when this happens. There are no invitations sent out, and no one attends such an event. But unbinding and release both happen when....

I understand that, to speak precisely, Awakening (not Nibbāna) happens when one lives in accordance with N8P, etc etc.

Nibbāna cannot occur "when..." or "due to..." because that would imply a starting point for it and conditions to create it. But it has no causes and never arises. It always is. It is: “not-born (ajātaṃ) , not-brought-to-being (abhūtaṃ), not-made (akataṃ), not-conditioned (asaṅkhataṃ).”

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

It seems to me that going with nibbana as some thing that exists out there somehow raises far more questions than it addresses.

"Nibbana" is a singular noun, but that noun refers to some specific events, none of which require such a transcendent thing, as far as I know. "Nibbana" as a term is a convenient expression but problematic if solidified into a "thing".

Nibbāna cannot occur "when..." or "due to..." because that would imply a starting point for it and conditions to create it. But it has no causes and never arises. It always is. It is: “not-born (ajātaṃ) , not-brought-to-being (abhūtaṃ), not-made (akataṃ), not-conditioned (asaṅkhataṃ).”

So, then, you think that "unbinding", "release", "awakening" and "enlightenment" are events, which have a cause, but nibbana just is.

I think that I agree. Now if we can get Tiltbillings onboard, then that will also be an event.

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

There is (Atthi), bhikkhus, that base (tadāyatanaṃ) where there is no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.

Kenshou wrote:"Nibbana" is a singular noun, but that noun refers to some specific events, none of which require such a transcendent thing, as far as I know. "Nibbana" as a term is a convenient expression but problematic if solidified into a "thing".

An event occurs in time and is impermanent. Nibbāna does not.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

There is (Atthi), bhikkhus, that base (tadāyatanaṃ) where there is no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.

Kenshou wrote:"Nibbana" is a singular noun, but that noun refers to some specific events, none of which require such a transcendent thing, as far as I know. "Nibbana" as a term is a convenient expression but problematic if solidified into a "thing".

An event occurs in time and is impermanent. Nibbāna does not.

Excellent! Nibbana is unconditioned and permanent, whereas unbinding, release, awakening, and enlightenment are all conditioned by living and practicing sufficiently, if not "perfectly" The Noble Eight Fold Path.

The problem is that neither you nor I have attained nibbana, so aside from our understanding and interpretation of the suttas, neither of us have direct knowledge. But, I am willing to wait to find out. I suspect it will be worth the wait.

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.