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Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations. In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging location in the state

Message 1 of 29
, Jan 12, 2006

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Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations.

In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging location
in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
at night when most our charging is done.

I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just a
little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten years it
is just a matter of time but it will happen.

It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours looking
at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
and all for less than 600 dollars.

That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
(batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of transportation is the
only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few Force
owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast where
EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we don't
emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The true
value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with the
ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical. It a
sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
your Force running.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jay Grossman

Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First 20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most trips

Message 2 of 29
, Jan 12, 2006

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Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First 20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most trips daily are less than 20 miles. Plug in at night to recharge. Calcars in California is reengineering a Prius as a Plug in hybrid.

RE:Comments concerning coal polution to create electricity - what about the polution generated in the extraction and production of gasoline. Wind generation of electricity is also a clean alternative to coal production.
Jay H Grossman

In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging location
in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
at night when most our charging is done.

I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just a
little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten years it
is just a matter of time but it will happen.

It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours looking
at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
and all for less than 600 dollars.

That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
(batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of transportation is the
only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few Force
owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast where
EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we don't
emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The true
value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with the
ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical. It a
sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
your Force running.

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

theoldcars@aol.com

Calcars stopped at Portland and showed the Prius on their way to Seattle. They are using small sealed lead acid batteries that are used in an electric bike.

Message 3 of 29
, Jan 12, 2006

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Calcars stopped at Portland and showed the Prius on their way to Seattle.
They are using small sealed lead acid batteries that are used in an electric
bike. If I remember correct they were about 18 Ah. A little bit larger
batteries would extend the range. It is exactly what our country needs. Then everyone
would want to be able to plug in and run on electric as much as possible.

So many new hybrids and EV cars are being developed in Japan the United
States car manufactures will be forced to respond with similar vehicles.

Wind is a vast untapped energy source. The following is out of the Cape Cod
times.

Earlier this month the Department of Energy along with the Massachusetts
Technology Collaborative and General Electric, which would build the Cape Wind
turbines released a proposed framework for the development of offshore wind
resources.
The report suggested there are up to 900,000 megawatts of potential energy or
the rough equivalent of the nation's electrical capacity that can be
harnessed off America's coast.
With advances in technology and clear regulatory guidelines the industry
could tap winds as far off coast as 50 miles.

Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First
20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most
trips daily are less than 20 miles. Plug in at night to recharge. Calcars in
California is reengineering a Prius as a Plug in hybrid.

RE:Comments concerning coal polution to create electricity - what about the
polution generated in the extraction and production of gasoline. Wind
generation of electricity is also a clean alternative to coal production.
Jay H Grossman

In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging
location
in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
at night when most our charging is done.

I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just
a
little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten
years it
is just a matter of time but it will happen.

It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours
looking
at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
and all for less than 600 dollars.

That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
(batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of
transportation is the
only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few
Force
owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast
where
EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the
east
coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we
don't
emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The
true
value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with
the
ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical.
It a
sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
your Force running.

>
> For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
> more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
> coast its every man for himself.

I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

> Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

> Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
> the electricity does.

I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
gotten cleaner in recent years.

Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
with a Prius (at least not yet).

Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
talking and what his agenda is.

Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
though.

> Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
> a place.

Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>

d. Bouton Baldridge

All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the use of

Message 5 of 29
, Jan 14, 2006

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All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an unfortunate but all too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and tried to convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true EVer. I guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify my interest. In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must work at keeping the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds of those not yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The west coast is blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The failure I speak of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so those of
us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure the idea does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the country where it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate all of the efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who steadfastly lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that the next producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until that happens for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these EVs going are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely unfortunate because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that we need to remain unified and continue to support each other.
Thanks for being there.

>
> For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
> more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
> coast its every man for himself.

I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

> Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

> Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
> the electricity does.

I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
gotten cleaner in recent years.

Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
with a Prius (at least not yet).

Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
talking and what his agenda is.

Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
though.

> Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
> a place.

I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another wish we had something for an emergency. The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back

Message 6 of 29
, Jan 14, 2006

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I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another wish we
had something for an emergency.

The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200 pounds. You really
have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output or prime
power.

Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly reduce
your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't know of a
generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task putting one
in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.

The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small trailer with
batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer is not h
ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.

A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending on how
far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i would be a
nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime and is 56
db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very sparingly. I
would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute emergency. You
could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you burn out the
charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.

I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to
provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the
use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an unfortunate but all
too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and tried to
convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true EVer. I
guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify my interest.
In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must work at keeping
the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds of those not
yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The west coast is
blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The failure I speak
of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so those of
us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure the idea
does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the country where
it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate all of the
efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who steadfastly
lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that the next
producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until that happens
for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these EVs going
are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely unfortunate
because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that we need to
remain unified and continue to support each other.
Thanks for being there.

>
> For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
> more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
> coast its every man for himself.

I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

> Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

> Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
> the electricity does.

I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
gotten cleaner in recent years.

Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
with a Prius (at least not yet).

Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
talking and what his agenda is.

Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
though.

> Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
> a place.

Don, You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I don t know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of the Force, (97 with

Message 7 of 29
, Jan 14, 2006

0 Attachment

Don,
You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I
don't know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of
the Force, (97 with U27 gel configuration.) To close the trunk you
have to make sure the generator handle is lined up so the thicker
support part of the trunk lid misses it upon closing. I never tried
charging the car with it. I was taking the generator in for service
and wanted to drive cheap.

Short range on the Pba batteries is a fact of life and one that has
some positive aspects. Cab fare and towing should both be reasonable.

Mike
PS
You can always get out and push it for a few AH in regen if you have
some really strong friends.

--- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, theoldcars@a... wrote:
>
>
> I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another
wish we
> had something for an emergency.
>
> The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This
is at
> 3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
> horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200
pounds. You really
> have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output
or prime
> power.
>
> Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly
reduce
> your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't
know of a
> generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task
putting one
> in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.
>
> The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small
trailer with
> batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer
is not h
> ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
> difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.
>
> A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending
on how
> far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i
would be a
> nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime
and is 56
> db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very
sparingly. I
> would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute
emergency. You
> could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you
burn out the
> charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.
>
> I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120
volts.
> Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> cfrkeepr@y... writes:
>
> All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not
meant to
> provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in
exploring the
> use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an
unfortunate but all
> too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and
tried to
> convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true
EVer. I
> guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify
my interest.
> In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
> ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must
work at keeping
> the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds
of those not
> yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
> neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The
west coast is
> blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The
failure I speak
> of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so
those of
> us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure
the idea
> does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the
country where
> it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate
all of the
> efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who
steadfastly
> lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that
the next
> producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until
that happens
> for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these
EVs going
> are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely
unfortunate
> because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that
we need to
> remain unified and continue to support each other.
> Thanks for being there.
>
> Bouty
>
> rod864 <rod864@y...> wrote:
> --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
> <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
> >
> > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
> > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
> > coast its every man for himself.
>
> I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
> about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
> are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
> minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.
>
> Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
> routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
> some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
> return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
> their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
> stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.
>
> > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.
>
> I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.
>
> > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
> > the electricity does.
>
> I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
> run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
> emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
> direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
> is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
> gotten cleaner in recent years.
>
> Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
> make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
> with a Prius (at least not yet).
>
> Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
> justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
> can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
> quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
> going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
> petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
> it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
> problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).
>
> Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
> a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
> farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
> question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
> talking and what his agenda is.
>
> Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
> when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
> can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
> protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)
>
> At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
> sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
> though.
>
> > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
> > a place.
>
> Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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theoldcars@aol.com

Hello Mike I have looked at a lot of generators mostly 240 volt to get an idea of weight and size. The light weight and size of the Honda 2000i is very good.

Message 8 of 29
, Jan 14, 2006

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Hello Mike

I have looked at a lot of generators mostly 240 volt to get an idea of
weight and size. The light weight and size of the Honda 2000i is very good. There
is one on eBay right now they ran for 13,000 hours before it stopped working.
I don't have one but I have always been very happy with Honda products.

A generator that I could put in the Force but it would be tempting for trips
that push your range. For me in this weather (37 degrees) that is around 16
miles. I have new batteries U27 Gel but I have been wanting to see how long
these will go.

Before I would call a tow truck I would be calling a friend.

There already is a huge generator in the Force. Just use an ICE with a very
strong tow rope. In about one mile the Force would put 2 to 3 Ah in the pack
with regen on. Just a few minutes of towing and you could get home on your
own.

Don,
You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I
don't know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of
the Force, (97 with U27 gel configuration.) To close the trunk you
have to make sure the generator handle is lined up so the thicker
support part of the trunk lid misses it upon closing. I never tried
charging the car with it. I was taking the generator in for service
and wanted to drive cheap.

Short range on the Pba batteries is a fact of life and one that has
some positive aspects. Cab fare and towing should both be reasonable.

Mike
PS
You can always get out and push it for a few AH in regen if you have
some really strong friends.

--- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, theoldcars@a... wrote:
>
>
> I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another
wish we
> had something for an emergency.
>
> The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This
is at
> 3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
> horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200
pounds. You really
> have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output
or prime
> power.
>
> Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly
reduce
> your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't
know of a
> generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task
putting one
> in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.
>
> The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small
trailer with
> batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer
is not h
> ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
> difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.
>
> A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending
on how
> far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i
would be a
> nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime
and is 56
> db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very
sparingly. I
> would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute
emergency. You
> could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you
burn out the
> charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.
>
> I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120
volts.
> Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> cfrkeepr@y... writes:
>
> All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not
meant to
> provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in
exploring the
> use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an
unfortunate but all
> too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and
tried to
> convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true
EVer. I
> guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify
my interest.
> In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
> ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must
work at keeping
> the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds
of those not
> yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
> neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The
west coast is
> blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The
failure I speak
> of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so
those of
> us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure
the idea
> does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the
country where
> it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate
all of the
> efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who
steadfastly
> lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that
the next
> producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until
that happens
> for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these
EVs going
> are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely
unfortunate
> because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that
we need to
> remain unified and continue to support each other.
> Thanks for being there.
>
> Bouty
>
> rod864 <rod864@y...> wrote:
> --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
> <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
> >
> > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
> > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
> > coast its every man for himself.
>
> I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
> about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
> are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
> minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.
>
> Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
> routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
> some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
> return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
> their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
> stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.
>
> > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.
>
> I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.
>
> > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
> > the electricity does.
>
> I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
> run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
> emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
> direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
> is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
> gotten cleaner in recent years.
>
> Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
> make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
> with a Prius (at least not yet).
>
> Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
> justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
> can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
> quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
> going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
> petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
> it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
> problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).
>
> Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
> a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
> farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
> question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
> talking and what his agenda is.
>
> Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
> when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
> can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
> protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)
>
> At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
> sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
> though.
>
> > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
> > a place.
>
> Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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>
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Photo Books. You design it and weâ€™ll bind it!
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Yahoo! Groups Links

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Ken Olum

From: theoldcars@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:03:17 EST The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at 3.3 kW... Either this

The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
3.3 kW...

Either this is a typo or something is wrong with your charger. It
should be about 18A output. The input power of 3.3kW is correct.

I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

It should be about 800W. It's proportional to the square of the
voltage.

Ken

theoldcars@aol.com

Hello Ken I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger. Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah

Message 10 of 29
, Jan 17, 2006

0 Attachment

Hello Ken

I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

I used the Ah gauge as it gives you a real world amount of range your going
to get. I live in an area of some very steep hills. There is nothing wrong
with my car and I average 1.5 Ah per mile. I would like to add if it was not for
the regen it would be at or over 2.0 Ah per mile. I pick up close to 30
percent and try to make the regen last as long as possible. If an ICE is behind
me that does not happen. If I get out of the area I have found I get about
1.0 Ah per mile and maybe even a little better if it is slow and no stopping.

I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

What pack voltage are we talking about? Is it 156V nominal, like
mine? Are you measuring it when the pack is significantly discharged?
If so, something is wrong. It should be more than 3kW output, which
means at least 17A into 170V.

Assuming the charger is a Brusa NLG-412, I think this is wrong, unless
you get a special-purpose version of the charger (NLG-4121) that is
intended for low input voltage.

Ken

Stephen Taylor

Don: I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other

Message 12 of 29
, Jan 17, 2006

0 Attachment

Don:

I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18 miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

---------------------------------
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theoldcars@aol.com

Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have some

Message 13 of 29
, Jan 18, 2006

0 Attachment

Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
some loss?

I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.

I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

---------------------------------
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Stephen Taylor

I am charging my 156 volt NiCD Force right now. One hour ago the AH guage read 49AH, it now reads 34AH so it went down 15AHs in one hour. I ll check my lead

Message 14 of 29
, Jan 18, 2006

0 Attachment

I am charging my 156 volt NiCD Force right now. One hour ago the AH guage read 49AH, it now reads 34AH so it went down 15AHs in one hour.

I'll check my lead acid car this afternoon, but my AH guage in it has a funny problem. When it is charging or regenerating it overestimates the amount of energy put back by about 40%. It does this anytime the AH guage is going down (charging or regen) and the number is XX.40 or XX.X4. The next number after XX.40 as it is charging is XX.19 and the next number after XX.X4 is XX.X1 when charging. It does this everytime, but only going down it counts up properly. So what I'm saying is that I will see my AH guage go down in that car by almost 25AH in one hour and of course I see huge negative numbers before the overcharge is done.

If you know the charger is putting in 15 to 16 amps into the batteries, it sounds like your AH guage is not counting it properly. Kind of the opposite of what mine is doing. Does your AH guage eventually go to negative numbers during the overcharge? Is the guage always starting at zero after you unplug it from a full charge or are there times it doesn't quite reach zero?

Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
some loss?

I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.

I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

---------------------------------
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Stephen Taylor

OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate in one

Message 15 of 29
, Jan 18, 2006

0 Attachment

OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40 to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a 40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3 volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the amps begin to throttle back.

Stephen Taylor

theoldcars@... wrote:
Even just using a watch and
giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of
charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate
in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40
to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a
40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour
is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power
charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3
volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the
amps begin to throttle back.

Stephen Taylor

theoldcars@... wrote:
Even just using a watch and
giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
hour rate.

I m getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers. Jay H Grossman theoldcars@aol.com

Message 17 of 29
, Jan 19, 2006

0 Attachment

I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
Jay H Grossman

theoldcars@... wrote:
Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
some loss?

I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.

I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

---------------------------------
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Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands
ASAP.

I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of
charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
Jay H Grossman

theoldcars@... wrote:
Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have

some loss?

I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel
making
them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps
at
the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time

it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to
start
with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch
and
giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
hour rate.

I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries
you
should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30.
Then
you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.

I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet.
In other
words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

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Stephen Taylor

Don Did 6 minutes of charge on 120volts. AH started at 19.51 and ended at 18.65. That is a change of .86 or 8.6 for one hour. Subtracting 40% for my AH

Message 19 of 29
, Jan 19, 2006

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Don

Did 6 minutes of charge on 120volts. AH started at 19.51 and ended at 18.65. That is a change of .86 or 8.6 for one hour. Subtracting 40% for my AH guage problem mentioned earlier that leaves 5.16 AH per hour. So it would appear at 120 volts it must be doing only about 1/3 (maybe even less) the charge rate as at 240 volts.

OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of
charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate
in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40
to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a
40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour
is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power
charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3
volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the
amps begin to throttle back.

Stephen Taylor

theoldcars@... wrote:
Even just using a watch and
giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
hour rate.

240 Volts at home, Dekka 8G27M batteries which are 8 months old (May 2005), with 5400 miles on this pack. My principal driving is 17 miles to the office

Message 21 of 29
, Jan 20, 2006

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240 Volts at home, Dekka 8G27M batteries which are 8 months old (May 2005), with 5400 miles on this pack. My principal driving is 17 miles to the office where I have a 208v outlet to charge during the day and then 17 miles home where I have a 240v outlet.
Jay H Grossman

I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of
charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
Jay H Grossman

theoldcars@... wrote:
Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have

some loss?

I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel
making
them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps
at
the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time

it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to
start
with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch
and
giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
hour rate.

I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries
you
should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30.
Then
you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.

I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet.
In other
words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

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