Thank you. I agree that these kinds of issues, however important they are, should just be left out of the conversation in most cases. Educating someone who's open to that, or having a civil and respectful conversation are fine and beneficial to both parties. But when you're using terms like "mutilation" (even though technically it is an appropriate word) just shows that you are choosing not to show respect, compassion, acceptance, etc towards that other person, and nothing from that point is going to be benecial or productive. It becomes an attack at that point.
I understand feeling very strongly about certain things, and I absolutely cross the line and use strong language that cuts people out sometimes. With friends it's ok, we can see those sides of each other and still be accepting. But with people who are simply not as close/willing to accept or with strangers, you flat out are not going to convince people to see your side when you are not taking the time to present your case in a way that is calm, collected, factual and respectful. There comes a time when you have to accept peple despite their faults.

I also agree that the circ thing is more a problem with society than with individuals. Unfortunately people are too trusting when it comes to the sources where they get their facts. It's very sad and it majorly sucks, and it has lasting negative impact, but it's just the way it is. You can't harbor anger against everyone who doesn't get all the right facts by the right times, unless you want to be a very bitter person.
Way too many years have gone by with false information being pumped into our minds on issues like this and THAT is the problem, more so than people acting according to their natural humanly flawed tendencies. (by that I mean people on both "sides")

Yes exactly. I used to be very hardcore like that and judgmental and have been working so hard to not be. I feel quite strongly about breastfeeding but finally just came to the conclusion that we are mothers and love our children and that is good enough for me. It's not my choice in that matter and I want friends and want to be friends so I won't disassociate myself just because of a difference.

I just know me, and I am much more apt to be open to information to those that approach it nicely. Heck like I said there were a few moms on here who helped me immensely with DS#2 and that's why he is intact.

Thank you. I agree that these kinds of issues, however important they are, should just be left out of the conversation in most cases. Educating someone who's open to that, or having a civil and respectful conversation are fine and beneficial to both parties. But when you're using terms like "mutilation" (even though technically it is an appropriate word) just shows that you are choosing not to show respect, compassion, acceptance, etc towards that other person, and nothing from that point is going to be benecial or productive. It becomes an attack at that point.
I understand feeling very strongly about certain things, and I absolutely cross the line and use strong language that cuts people out sometimes. With friends it's ok, we can see those sides of each other and still be accepting. But with people who are simply not as close/willing to accept or with strangers, you flat out are not going to convince people to see your side when you are not taking the time to present your case in a way that is calm, collected, factual and respectful. There comes a time when you have to accept peple despite their faults.

I also agree that the circ thing is more a problem with society than with individuals. Unfortunately people are too trusting when it comes to the sources where they get their facts. It's very sad and it majorly sucks, and it has lasting negative impact, but it's just the way it is. You can't harbor anger against everyone who doesn't get all the right facts by the right times, unless you want to be a very bitter person.
Way too many years have gone by with false information being pumped into our minds on issues like this and THAT is the problem, more so than people acting according to their natural humanly flawed tendencies. (by that I mean people on both "sides")

Just because I feel it is mutliation doesn't mean I'm harshly judging every parent that chooses circ. I believe it is mutilation by definition. You can't compare it to breast removal. Usually there's a medical reason for that, and it's done on a consenting adult! I believe most people who circ don't really understand what a foreskin is and why it's there, but it isn't necessarily their fault. Doctors are mostly to blame. They are the ones who keep doing it (without informed consent, at that), even though it's ethically wrong.

I believe it is mutilation. I don't think parents who choose it are bad parents, though I don't agree that the choice they made was a good one. Clear as mud?

It's a society thing. We aren't supposed to judge parents who choose male circ, but if it were foot binding, female circ, tattooing, extreme piercing, scarification, etc our "judgement" would be fine and dandy. How come? What makes it ok in some cases, but not in others? It's because what's done in THIS society we are supposed to accept. Well, that's not a good enough reason for me. What makes our society more "humane" than a society that practices scarification? Why can we cut half a baby's penis skin off and think it's fine, but turn around and talk about other societies and say, "ugh I can't believe they mutilate their children like that". Pot, meet kettle.

I think people use the "but you're judging us!" argument to try and make me be "ok" with male circ. I won't ever be ok with it. I will never believe it should be a parental choice. I will not "agree to disagree". Yes, I judge. Everyone does. But getting all whiny and telling me I'm being judgemental is kind of dumb. We're talking about removing functional tissue from the sex organs of unconsenting babies. You gotta expect some people to be judgemental.

But again, I don't think they are bad parents. Usually, at best, they've been duped by society and misled by doctors.

And again, I never use the term "mutilate" while trying to educate or debate. I know it doesn't work. But I don't see why it can't be used in a thread that is a bunch of women who left their babies intact, talking about the reactions they've gotten. This isn't a debate thread. Or an informative thread. Or a pro-circ thread. If someone who would easily be offended by anti-circ comments stumbles in here out of curiousity...oh well?

Just because I feel it is mutliation doesn't mean I'm harshly judging every parent that chooses circ. I believe it is mutilation by definition. You can't compare it to breast removal. Usually there's a medical reason for that, and it's done on a consenting adult! I believe most people who circ don't really understand what a foreskin is and why it's there, but it isn't necessarily their fault. Doctors are mostly to blame. They are the ones who keep doing it (without informed consent, at that), even though it's ethically wrong.

I believe it is mutilation. I don't think parents who choose it are bad parents, though I don't agree that the choice they made was a good one. Clear as mud?

It's a society thing. We aren't supposed to judge parents who choose male circ, but if it were foot binding, female circ, tattooing, extreme piercing, scarification, etc our "judgement" would be fine and dandy. How come? What makes it ok in some cases, but not in others? It's because what's done in THIS society we are supposed to accept. Well, that's not a good enough reason for me. What makes our society more "humane" than a society that practices scarification? Why can we cut half a baby's penis skin off and think it's fine, but turn around and talk about other societies and say, "ugh I can't believe they mutilate their children like that". Pot, meet kettle.

I think people use the "but you're judging us!" argument to try and make me be "ok" with male circ. I won't ever be ok with it. I will never believe it should be a parental choice. I will not "agree to disagree". Yes, I judge. Everyone does. But getting all whiny and telling me I'm being judgemental is kind of dumb. We're talking about removing functional tissue from the sex organs of unconsenting babies. You gotta expect some people to be judgemental.

But again, I don't think they are bad parents. Usually, at best, they've been duped by society and misled by doctors.

And again, I never use the term "mutilate" while trying to educate or debate. I know it doesn't work. But I don't see why it can't be used in a thread that is a bunch of women who left their babies intact, talking about the reactions they've gotten. This isn't a debate thread. Or an informative thread. Or a pro-circ thread. If someone who would easily be offended by anti-circ comments stumbles in here out of curiousity...oh well?

I could have written this post word for word. We have two intact boys in a higher circ area and haven't had any comments at all except my mother asking if we were going to when my first son was born. My boys have been in daycare and cared for by grandparents and babysitters and other than my brief spiel about not pulling back the foreskin during diaper changes, it has been a non-issue. I typically say that while a circed penis may be "low maintenance", an intact penis is "no maintenance" so only clean what is seen.

-Astrid

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as far as educating others, i find that most people that choose to circ and dont regret it wont be won over so i dont even talk to people IRL that do. ive run across a lot of young mothers that just did it without giving it any kind of thought or research and definitely are interested in hearing why i chose not to do it. i always do so in a respectful manner. i dont shame them for being ignorant, i just want them to have the info they need to make an informed decision in the future.

But online when it's an anti circ thread, i have no problem throwing down words like gender mutilation because that's my opinion and that is the topic at hand. if pro circ mamas enter the thread and get all huffy about it that's not on me.

as far as educating others, i find that most people that choose to circ and dont regret it wont be won over so i dont even talk to people IRL that do. ive run across a lot of young mothers that just did it without giving it any kind of thought or research and definitely are interested in hearing why i chose not to do it. i always do so in a respectful manner. i dont shame them for being ignorant, i just want them to have the info they need to make an informed decision in the future.

One person told me it's disgusting. Said she'd circ her sons because it looks nasty and "every girl prefers a circ'd penis." It makes me really sad that she is legally allowed to cut off part of her child's body because she thinks it's gross. I mean, if she would at least pretend to want to do if for health reasons, that's one thing. But she's very outspoken about how weird it looks. Which I think is funny, because after having 3 intact boys, whenever I change a boy's diaper who is circ'd, it looks so odd to me now. (even though DH is circ'd, it's just not usually what I see when I'm changing a diaper) I think one's "visual preference" has everything to do with what you're used to.

It's never really come up. Some family know that DS is intact (my mom, MIL, my sister) but I don't think anyone else does. My sister is a nurse and knows it is unnecessary, etc. My mom told me before he was born that we shouldn't leave him intact (cleanliness, etc). MIL told us BIL wasn't sure what to do when he had a son, but ended up circing. These were all before birth. No one has ever so much as commented that I recall.

Im an intactivist. I educate when its a close friend, if I am asked, otherwise, I don't. I post information on my facebook. My dad and brother are intact as is my husband. We leave decisions about permanent changes to genitals up to the person to whom the genitals belong. I'm realllly tired of hearing people misuse the term "personal decision" a personal decision is a decision to be made by the person it affects, ie: the owner of the genitals. I pray someday, hopefully soon, it will be illegal. I believe people make the decision for what they THINK are the right reasons, however, its never right or ok to mutilate another person's body. That is something they should get to decide for themselves. I can guarantee you, a majority of intact men would not choose to be circed as adults. Also, we need to educate ourselves in that its not a small piece of skin or a benign procedure. It affects the sexual lives of BOTH partners involved as adults. Im so thankful my family supports me as does my husband in leaving all of our children (male or female) intact. I would never feel judged and never do when people make dirogatory comments about it because they are most likely ignorant about foreskin and its purpose. I know that not mutilating another person is the right decision, therefore, I don't feel judged.

Me judged for leaving my children whole? Never. I do however tend to judge mothers who refuse to educate themselves or just don't care. I'm a huge intactivist and talk about it to as many people as I can and honestly don't really stay friends with people that are very pro cutters. It's just something I refuse to "mind my own business" with.

I know it's all of your own decisions to "not be friends with" those who circ', but you're as bad as the ones that I feel are judging me for not circ'ing! Come on people, can't we be civil to those who feel differently than us? I understand there are people out there that are uneducated, but do you really feel like you are going to change them by being judgemental!?