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You speak of being "competitive smashers" but you're still stuck on one exploiting technique that is apparently required to be a good player. I've seen these so-called "competitive" video gamers in various settings, I've watched them play and I've joined in games with them. Some of them wavedashing every opportunity, and some of them never doing it at all. And yet neither technique was particularly stronger than the other.

It's all about skill, not exploits. That's all. The more skilled players have mastered the timing of the wavedash, and the less skilled have not. That's the only relationship between the skilled players and wavedashing. Wavedashing doesn't provide the advantage you claim it does.

No, I haven't played in tournaments, because I play for fun. But I've stumbled in on games where the tournament winners were playing, and played with them.

If you want to say that they didn't play as well because we weren't in a tournament, believe what you like.

Then whoever you were playing is simply not good enough to apply wavedashing properly. That or either you're not good enough to see the applications of it being used.

I don't see how wavedashing is an "exploit" or a "cheat" as you call it. It's simply a technique used to benefit the player in certain situations. (Believe it or not because obviously you aren't getting the point and are just being stubborn.) Are you really saying that even though ALL of the top players use this technique that it is useless? I see no reasonable logic behind that.

Also, we are talking about competitive play. If you don't want to wavedash or enter tournaments because you play for fun, then why do you continue to argue about it?

WDing is not a glitch. It's just airdodging into the ground... and you cant be air dodged on the ground so it cancels the animation and the trajectory moves you, AND the developers knew it was there and never took it out, even after 4? versions of the game came out. I think it even has a line when you use it in actionreplay. A glitch is something like Ness's yoyo glitch or the black hole glitch. If it was detrimental to the game at all, it would be banned from tournament games like M2's soul stun and the IC freeze glitch.

WDing, while not essential, can open up a whole new game play style and advance your technique. While it isnt an "I win" button as you obviously know, it can definetly add an advatage. While some character like Jiggly hardly ever need to WD, some characters like Luigi and ICs play a whole lot better because of it. Sure, you dont need to WD, but is there a reason not to? Why not become better because of it.

Most players go through the arrogent noob stage when they first see competitive game play. "haha, i can WD and you cant. im gonna pwn u bcuz you cant wd." In truth, WD is only one aspect of competitive play and will not guaruntee a win. You dont see pros just randomly spamming WD while they are fighting, they are pressuring the opponent or otherwise using mindgames to counter him and put him in a bad position. It takes so much more to get better. You need to learn to L(ag)Cancel your aerials, know how to combo types of characters, learn mindgames to outsmart your opponent, etc. Since Ive gotten into this, when I fight my other friends (whom dont smash competivley), I notice they do the same thing a lot and I know how to punish them easily. It's a bad habit to break and I find myself doing the same thing sometimes. SSBM may seem like a simple game at a glance at it. Once you delve deeper in the game, it takes so much more skill and cunning to play well. The developers had no idea how big this game would turn out. It's success shows that it is not a simple kiddy game.

It makes me laugh that someone is calling in lots of friends to register just to have this very serious argument about this very serious subject, but until this past round, nobody had accepted that you don't have to wavedash to be competitive at the game.

Originally Posted by CommanderBrad

And that whole paragraph contradicts itself. Its skill, not exploits, but you say skilled players wavedash? That is contrary to your argument. You're right, skilled players do wavedash because it is useful. ^^

No, I said skilled players can do it. Unskilled players can not. But plenty of skilled players do not use it, because there is not enough gain to make it matter. You can easily play without wasting your effort, and do just as well.

How is it an exploit, you ask? There is an effect that ultimately makes no sense if you consider the rest of the physics in the game. This was not an intentional effect. Why didn't they ban it or remove it? Because there is no discernable advantage to using it. It's a skill boasted by "competitive" players, which doesn't affect the outcome of the game to any serious degree.

I have had this discussion before. I have had players ask me why I don't wavedash, saying that it's a necessary skill. I have beat plenty of people who are convinced of that, and I've taken my beatings from plenty of people who never bothered to learn how. I've beaten people who claim to be experts at using it effectively, and been beaten by people who everyone says uses it wrong. I've had these experts attempt to set up situations for me where wavedashing is apparently necessary in an effort to prove to me that I need to use this skill, and quite often, I didn't even have to use a different approach. I could handle it without wavedashing. Ultimately, these people discovered they also didn't need to wavedash either.

I choose not to, because I prefer to play the game as it was designed, not utilizing all the exploits and bugs. I refuse to play tournaments because the people playing there suck all the fun out of the game. That video posted earlier supports this. Playing one on one, same character, with no items? You're missing out on half the fun of the game. And all I saw was two people constantly edge guarding, which I consider to be ungentlemanly in my for-fun games.

Like I said before, the depth to this game is in how amazingly simple it is. That's Nintendo's strength in all their games, in fact. Expand upon that, don't complicate it.

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Originally Posted by Eris

Originally Posted by ~Jack of Blades~

Because evaporation is a ninja ...so you can't see it =o

You know it's true.

You leave a glass of water, turn your back and WH-WH-WH-WH-WHAM! You've got 5 shurikens in your back.

Y'know, just because it's your opinion doesn't make it right. Who are you to say how people have the most fun doing something?

Also edgeguarding is a huge part of melee, saying that you don't do it is way more than enough for me to infer that you aren't good, and that you have no idea what you're talking about with this whole topic.

Y'know, just because it's your opinion doesn't make it right. Who are you to say how people have the most fun doing something?

Also edgeguarding is a huge part of melee, saying that you don't do it is way more than enough for me to infer that you aren't good, and that you have no idea what you're talking about with this whole topic.

You did an amazing job of discrediting yourself with just one post.

The first area to note is where you tell me not to tell people how to have fun playing the game. That of course is not what I said. I said that wavedashing does not make you a better player, and that I choose not to use exploits.

Secondly, you then go on to tell me how I shouldn't play, because you like edgeguarding and I do not. This is of course exactly what you told me not to do.

Thirdly, you made some strange connection that if I choose not to do something in the game that will help me win faster, I must not be very good. That conclusion doesn't even make sense. Putting myself at a disadvantage would mean I would have to work smarter to compensate.

Did I mention that I play this game for fun? And that I considered that particular tactic ungentlemanly? I certainly never told anyone here not to do it.

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Originally Posted by Eris

Originally Posted by ~Jack of Blades~

Because evaporation is a ninja ...so you can't see it =o

You know it's true.

You leave a glass of water, turn your back and WH-WH-WH-WH-WHAM! You've got 5 shurikens in your back.

Eh, I think my argument is done on this. I don't remember exactly if I saw this or not, but edge guarding was one of the huge things that made this game so unique, to get them off the stage and not let them back on. However, this argument is futile. I realize this is between competitive players and one who wishes not to be a competitive player, and while I still hold true to everything I said and will not take it back. In my OPINION, WDing, while not being the sole skill needed to win (because I believe it takes a variety of techniques) is VERY necessary for players in COMPETITIVE play. We all have fun in our own way, and in the end that's all that matters.

This argument has irked me I admit, but wtf. It's the internet. :/ I'm looking more retarded each post.

My apologies to the topic creator for his thread being filled up with Melee arguments. Anway, to get back on subject, I really want to see some new characters updates. ;-; I love seeing some of these stages and stuff, but gah, just super curious. I want a new FE character.

All of the people arguing are from Smashboards (The largest Super Smash Bros. Melee forum) You are so stuck on your opinion that you won't accept that we are right. All of us have been to tournaments and have experience in competitive play, which obviously you don't because you said that you haven't entered a tournament. Doesn't that say that we know what's effective and what's not? (At least more than you do) Yet you still continue to disagree.

I'm really just wasting my time though because your opinion is all that matters to you. There is no convincing you because you are so stubborn about it and think you are always right. So, I really don't have anything else to say...

I just want to apologize to the topic creator as well. I know how spam can be. So, I'm sorry for that. I would love to see a Castlevania character make an appearance.

All of the people arguing are from Smashboards (The largest Super Smash Bros. Melee forum) You are so stuck on your opinion that you won't accept that we are right.

I accept that you all believe that this technique is necessary to play well. I have observed that very often, the most commonly used technique is not the most effective.

Originally Posted by ナイトメア"

All of us have been to tournaments and have experience in competitive play, which obviously you don't because you said that you haven't entered a tournament. Doesn't that say that we know what's effective and what's not? (At least more than you do) Yet you still continue to disagree.

No, it doesn't say that at all. Brilliant scientists were saying that the Earth is flat for hundreds of years, but when it comes to fact, majority doesn't rule. I've played with people who compete in tournaments including people who boast several tournament victories. I have had this argument with these people, and they were unable to prove that this technique is necessary. Many of them were as convinced as you, and I was able to beat them several times over without wavedashing once, so obviously it's not as important a technique as you think it is.

Seeing these results, I can only conclude that wavedashing is little more than bragging rights for people. Like a milestone you can cross to demonstrate a certain level of skill, but not as a technique needed to perform well against the tournament players, otherwise I would not have had nearly the results I have.

Originally Posted by ナイトメア"

I'm really just wasting my time though because your opinion is all that matters to you. There is no convincing you because you are so stubborn about it and think you are always right. So, I really don't have anything else to say...

Try this. Learn to play without relying on one technique. Branch out and try to open your mind. Then tell me you don't play as well without it, and consider what this says about you.

If I can beat tournament winners without it, who really is the stubborn one? The saying goes, "Those who say something can not be done should not interrupt the people who are doing it."

Last edited by Regex; 07-25-2007 at 05:12 PM.

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Originally Posted by Eris

Originally Posted by ~Jack of Blades~

Because evaporation is a ninja ...so you can't see it =o

You know it's true.

You leave a glass of water, turn your back and WH-WH-WH-WH-WHAM! You've got 5 shurikens in your back.

I have a hard time believing that the people you have beaten are good. They probably went and won some local EBgames tournament or something and they boast about it. I have an even harder time believing that you are good though. Judging by the way you talk, I bet you couldn't beat me with or without it.

I never said that it was impossible to win without wavedashing, but I'm crippling myself as I know how to use it to my advantage.

This is clearly going to be one big loop of:
Me: "You're ignorant if you deny the uses of this technique."
You: "This technique is useless and unnecessary. You can win just as easily without it."

So what I'm trying to say, is that this argument is pointless because we are never going to convince each other to accept the other one's view on this.

The Tier List is pretty accurate. It doesn't say that you can't when with lower characters, you'll just have one hell of a time doing it. Example, Arash one of the best Bowsers in the world, has beaten Ken, one of the best all round in the world, maybe a handful of times. The Tier List shows how people stack up against the competition. Fox and Falco are the top because they are great characters and have fewer counter picks then other. There is also alot that goes into the tier list, like metagame and current playing trends. It is made by the elite members on Smashboards, so it is highly accurate. But no one says you have to believe it. It's your choice.

The Tier List is pretty accurate. It doesn't say that you can't when with lower characters, you'll just have one hell of a time doing it. Example, Arash one of the best Bowsers in the world, has beaten Ken, one of the best all round in the world, maybe a handful of times. The Tier List shows how people stack up against the competition. Fox and Falco are the top because they are great characters and have fewer counter picks then other. There is also alot that goes into the tier list, like metagame and current playing trends. It is made by the elite members on Smashboards, so it is highly accurate. But no one says you have to believe it. It's your choice.

No, the list itself didn't say that, but he did.

Originally Posted by ナイトメア"

but there is no way that a pro bowser can win a big event with other pros of characters such as Marth, Falco, Fox, Sheik, and Peach.

In any case, you're all so quick to preach this information as fact, as if you couldn't possibly be wrong. So let me quote myself one more time.

Originally Posted by Regex

Plain and simple, Fox and Falco aren't "strong" against any of the players. Falco's got speed on him, and that's what people play off of. Those are "Speed players". That means they play best with great speed, and low attack power. Meanwhile, someone like me plays best with lower speed, moderate attack power, and an attuned sense of timing. If you play better with speed, then you will choose faster players, and you will have an advantage over everyone, while also having a different weakness to everyone. If you play better with a powerful character, then you will choose stronger characters, and you will have a different advantage over everyone.

This remains true. As well as this:

Originally Posted by Regex

Wave dashing is a stupid term for a simple "technique" that is little more than a simple dodge immediately after a jump. While potentially useful in very extreme cases, it's not at all a necessary skill, despite what people like to claim.

I have to go back to my previous advice. If you don't believe me, learn to play without it. Discover alternate means to defeat your enemy, and look how easily replaced that technique is.

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Originally Posted by Eris

Originally Posted by ~Jack of Blades~

Because evaporation is a ninja ...so you can't see it =o

You know it's true.

You leave a glass of water, turn your back and WH-WH-WH-WH-WHAM! You've got 5 shurikens in your back.

Instead of listening to what I had to say, you went through the trouble to dig up an old post that I made trying to start something else. The statement is very true, but you don't agree with it.

I'll prove this to you by showing you the results of the biggest tournament in history. It's also a very recent tournament that took place on July 12th-14th. I'll list the characters mainly played by these players:

Even if that were true, how do you explain the best Bowser player taking 81st? And with many good low tier players there, only 1 making it into the brackets?

It's definitely not a popularity contest. The best of the low tier players would tell you the same thing. It's very hard to defeat good Top/High players with a character such as Bowser.

Edit- Your comment about the tier list being superstition doesn't make any sense. If you do a little research, then you'd see that almost every fighting game has a tier list. What would be the point if it was just "superstition"?

Well, basically instead of making a post that might be read but wont have any effect on anyone's opinion I am just going to say this:

This is obviously all our idea of how to have fun playing the game. Some like party style with all the items/stages and dont care about anything "advanced." There are those who like to play 1v1, no items, etc and only do that. Then there are the people in between. This is a stalemate fight that has been going on for ages because noone wants to budge on their opinion.

Yea it has. IHSB gave me the link. Samus' armor is just...wow. All of the characters really look so good. The stages are looking nice to, it seems they've added a bunch of bright stages instead of emo ones like Battlefield, XD.