It is true that IF YOU DIE AND NEVER ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS AS THE SON OF GOD then yes. You are going to hell. This is true for every single person that has graced the face of the Earth since Jesus was born. Before then, you worshiped GOD with regular sacrifices of an animal to gain your entry into heaven. ( There is more to it. I just stated it that way for brevity.)

What an egotistical father and son combination you have there. I'm flabbergasted that people living in the 21st century still think this way. Time to wake up folks.

If God does indeed exist (and that is a big IF), the passage into the kingdom of heaven would not be based on acknowledging his son (another big IF) but rather on the type of person you were here on Earth. Honestly, if what you say is the criteria God actually uses, then he is the one that should be spending eternity in hell and not the many loving/caring folks here who live a good life but don't claim Jesus as his son due to 1) never hearing of him, 2) having a different upbringing from a faith perspective, or 3) being cursed with the doubting gene that God himself programmed doubters with.

I'm not sure who is worse in this scenario, the propagandized God that when you break it down is all about dictatorship and ego worshipping or the Devil who, although he can be a sheep in wolves clothing, at least is more intellectually honest than the God of the Bible.

Well, look at this way. If you were GOD, and you created everything, would you not feel entitled to set the rules for everything? Would you want everything you created to robotically worship you? Or would you want the worship you receive to be genuine?

Hell is full of good people. They are there because they rejected their creator. Rejecting your creator is either incredible ballsy or just plain stupid if you ask me. Either way, your creator will crush you in the end. So, the question is: Do I accept my creator's rules as he has dictated them? Or do I reject them and doom MYSELF TO ETERNITY IN HELL? It's my choice. It's your choice. And that choice is nothing more complicated than those two options. Not making a choice between the 2 options is in fact making a choice to reject your creator. You COULD be right and GOD doesn't exist.But, likewise, you could be wrong. What if you are wrong? Eternity is a very long, long time.In the grand scheme of things, part of a lifetime - ( No-one has ever served their entire lifetime because you can't really be saved until you have reached the age of countabillion and made your own decision ), is a very small time to serve GOD in exchange for eternity in heaven. 1 penny worth of service to GOD in exchange for $1Trillion dollars worth of Heaven. That's an awesome return on investment.

The funny thing here is Pablo... exactly what you ask for is there.. you just don't like it. It has nothing to do with logic.. you just don't like it. Why do we have to go round and round trying to make things something they are not? The Bible is clear, it is logical, some people simply just don't like it and never will. Ok! Why can't we just say "I don't believe that" instead of this intellectual dishonesty that there is some logical reasoning? It's ironic...

Overall, a good retort steensn - thank you. We do disagree on a number of things that will never come to resolution - that is part of what makes the world go round (by design or not). Saying the Bible is logical is a false statement, there are few works of fiction as illogical as the Bible - but I digress.

You are right, howver, that I don't like it. A loving God wouldn't judge as described in the Bible and as Billy stated IMO. And if he does, as I've stated, I want nothing to do with him (so again, you are right and I don't like it). Why don't I like it, because he is not a "loving" God under those circumstances. A "loving" God most likely forgives all, we are all his children after all, and lets everyone in. I don't like the fact that your God, then based on your stated requirements for entrance, doesn't seem to love or forgive. Sorry, that is just the way I feel.

Since he doesn't let everyone in, let's take a quick look at who might get in - in one hand we have a German boy who grows up to kill hundreds of thousands of Jews (the choosen people) to create an Aryan race of super humans - since he could do better than God apparently. But who ultimately believes in Jesus, asks for forgiveness of his grave sins before death.

A man who died near the same time also approaches the pearly gates. This man was born in India as a Hindu which he practiced his entire life never acknowloging Christ despite doing quite a bit of study on him and most other major faiths. He inspired movements for civil rights and freedom in his own country and throughout the world as a caring and thoughtful soul.

Yeah, I don't like it as I'd rather spend eternity with Ghandi rather than Hitler, but I didn't set up these rules obviously and a strongly object to anyone who did - including the God of the Bible.

Now, who would a TRUE LOVING GOD accept?

The difference is the German Soldier in your example finally accepted GOD. It does not matter what you have ever done in your life. God loves you. And if you repent of your unbelief, GOD is faithful and just to forgive you.

On the other hand, the guy from India, as you say studied all forms of religion including GOD. And he rejected him by not repenting of his sins and accepting Jesus as GOD. Now, would it be justice for GOD to let someone that rejected him into Heaven? Hell is full of good people that are there because of nothing more than they rejected Jesus. Jesus is the creator. Jesus sets the rules. If you were Jesus, you could set the rules. But, your not. So, you have a decision to make. Comply or reject.

August 13th, 2011, 10:01 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question

I'm curious:

Are laws created? Or just used as a way of explanation?

We have the law of gravity, law of physics, thermo dynamics and so on. Terms that "humans" have given fixed known boundaries in science, but how can organization come out of chaos?

I tried drawing that example earlier but was darn near impaled because my comparison to something we can see and actually identify, was "far too small" to compare to a universal level. Funny thing is I didn't realize that explosions came in varying degrees of destruction, except when you talk about the agent used to create the explosion.

So if laws are "fixed" by nature, doesn't that speak to a creator? Or at least an author who drew the boundaries and then released His creation to operate within the boundaries?

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

We have the law of gravity, law of physics, thermo dynamics and so on. Terms that "humans" have given fixed known boundaries in science, but how can organization come out of chaos?

I tried drawing that example earlier but was darn near impaled because my comparison to something we can see and actually identify, was "far too small" to compare to a universal level. Funny thing is I didn't realize that explosions came in varying degrees of destruction, except when you talk about the agent used to create the explosion.

So if laws are "fixed" by nature, doesn't that speak to a creator? Or at least an author who drew the boundaries and then released His creation to operate within the boundaries?

That just sounds too darned logical. LOL.

August 15th, 2011, 10:55 am

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9589Location: Dallas

Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question

WarEr4Christ wrote:

So if laws are "fixed" by nature, doesn't that speak to a creator?

Depends which side you are looking at this from. From the opposite standpoint, I'd say "fixed" laws pointed away from a crator. Why would a being so unlimited create a universe with such limited physics? Also, if he works in "mysterious" ways, how come some many of the "fixed" laws seem to lack any creativity or mystery?

I could go on, but point is I think it depends on your predisposition as usual.

Depends which side you are looking at this from. From the opposite standpoint, I'd say "fixed" laws pointed away from a crator. Why would a being so unlimited create a universe with such limited physics? Also, if he works in "mysterious" ways, how come some many of the "fixed" laws seem to lack any creativity or mystery?

I could go on, but point is I think it depends on your predisposition as usual.

I agree. From my standpoint laws of nature do not point to a creator in any way.

_________________"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

August 15th, 2011, 11:30 am

steensn

RIP Killer

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pmPosts: 13429

Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question

It's all in how you interpret the idea of having fixed laws within nature. The fact that fixed laws exist for many people "explain" how things are the way they are eliminating a need for a creator in their mind. In others, the wonder goes past that to "how did they get fixed?" In the end we are no closer with the discussion than "I just don't believe" or "I can't see how you don't." Both sides will leave with a ere of superiority without getting anywhere.

Maybe the creator put the limits in place because he did not want man to go past those set limits.

August 15th, 2011, 12:13 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question

Depends which side you are looking at this from. From the opposite standpoint, I'd say "fixed" laws pointed away from a crator. Why would a being so unlimited create a universe with such limited physics? Also, if he works in "mysterious" ways, how come some many of the "fixed" laws seem to lack any creativity or mystery?

What if the "Creator" knew who and what He was creating the environment for?

For example: If you and your wife are expecting your first child, do you not prepare the room for the child to be? You prepare a place for them to sleep and remove anything that would be unsafe.

It's kind of a stretch as an example, but only in the sense that our ability to create on the level of the universe is impossible. But if you are creating something with a specific goal or purpose, you design it to fit your desired intent.

Case in point: Earth and this universe was created for man. Not only do we have the universe to marvel at, but we are exploring too! Earth also has it's boundaries that limit mankind which we are always stretching the boundaries to see how far they go.

Stepping back down to humanity level, we create laws as a society to govern the whole. It provides for better flow of life for all, when we operate according to the rules. Those who step outside of said laws, pay the penalty, and hopefully reform back into productive society. Meaning that laws serve a purpose of order, allowing things to operate. So it is with the "natural order" things operate because that is what they were designed for.

I believe that the real answer behind the unbelief is that those who refuse to believe in a Divine Creator, do so in order to not be accountable to Him. If I ignore the truth long enough it won't exist, and if I tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth.

I sincerely hope that those whom I'm carrying in prayer will take an HONEST look before it's too late.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

August 15th, 2011, 12:44 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9589Location: Dallas

Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question

I could certainly argue that many of "his laws" don't make us safe, hence all the "accidents" man has suffered over the years. God certainly didn't make this world very safe so I guess we could say he is a bad parent, in fact CPS is knocking on the door and ready to take the kids away.

Heck, look at Lions training camp, he didn't even design us very safe now did he. As a parent, I'm pretty appauled at just how vulnerable he made us to deal with all these physical "laws".

PS - I'm still kinda mad at him for my aches, pains, and blisters from my half marathon yesterday. Then again, who was the idiot running 13.1 miles in Dallas in August yesterday - oh yeah, that was me...

You don't put your kid in a padded room and cover him in bubble wrap... which is what you are suggesting being a good parent is. Sounds like you don't even believe your own BS

Our rooms are all child proofed, and in some ways padded. For example I have foam edges on our hard/sharp surfaces (ie fireplaces). Humans are remarkably fragile creatures with many design flaws.

I'm curious, I wonder if all the believers out there curse God when they tear up a knee or rip a rotator cuff? It seems he always gets credit when things go right, but never is held "accountable" when things don't. Pretty nice double standard in place for man in the clouds don't you think?

I could certainly argue that many of "his laws" don't make us safe, hence all the "accidents" man has suffered over the years. God certainly didn't make this world very safe so I guess we could say he is a bad parent, in fact CPS is knocking on the door and ready to take the kids away.

Heck, look at Lions training camp, he didn't even design us very safe now did he. As a parent, I'm pretty appauled at just how vulnerable he made us to deal with all these physical "laws".

PS - I'm still kinda mad at him for my aches, pains, and blisters from my half marathon yesterday. Then again, who was the idiot running 13.1 miles in Dallas in August yesterday - oh yeah, that was me...

Actually, we were quite safe until we became disobedient and rejected him. But, you already know that.

August 15th, 2011, 2:26 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9589Location: Dallas

Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question

BillySims wrote:

Actually, we were quite safe until we became disobedient and rejected him. But, you already know that.

Actually, we were quite safe until we became disobedient and rejected him. But, you already know that.

A loving and forgiving God?

He does love you. And he is faithful and just to forgive you. All you have to do to get that forgiveness is honestly acknowledge him as your creator, repent of your sins against him, and ASK for his forgiveness.