Attack frequency of each weapon for frenzy: one or half?

Dear friends, I have a long-standing question on frenzy (and double swing). The attack mode of frenzy is not that the two weapons hit the target(s) simultaneously, but in turn, -- this I know. The highest speed of frenzy is 5 frames, -- this I also know. What I do not know is how many hits happen in this 5 frames. Each weapon hits once in 5 frames? Or, a weapon hits, then after 5 frames the other weapon hits? The damage of the former is double of that of the latter. If the latter is true, then I feel quite sad for frenzy. Who knows the answer? Thanks!

Thanks. So the latter in my initial post is the case? That's very sad. So, frenzy can only do damage of a one-hand weapon in 5 frames, while whirlwind can do damage of a two-hand weapon in 4 frames, right? Since the damage of a 2-hand weapon is usually about twice of that of a 1-hand weapon of the same level, it seems to me that the damage of frenzy is roughly a half of that of whirlwind. And compare to zeal of paladin, which can reach 4 frames: you pay the price of no shield, but damage of frenzy is still equal to or even lower than that of zeal. Isn't that very sad?
Well, a comparision fair enough might be with whirlwind with two 1-hand weapons. What's its attack mode? Thanks!

Thanks. So the latter in my initial post is the case? That's very sad.

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It's not sad.

So, frenzy can only do damage of a one-hand weapon in 5 frames, while whirlwind can do damage of a two-hand weapon in 4 frames, right? Since the damage of a 2-hand weapon is usually about twice of that of a 1-hand weapon of the same level, it seems to me that the damage of frenzy is roughly a half of that of whirlwind.

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Have fun watching the majority of that attack animation be spinning around a boss without actually being close enough to connect. Whirlwind is a fun skill, but I'd go so far as to say Frenzy is more practical.

And compare to zeal of paladin, which can reach 4 frames: you pay the price of no shield, but damage of frenzy is still equal to or even lower than that of zeal. Isn't that very sad?

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A paladin with Zeal can be just about the most overpowered thing in this game. I wouldn't go comparing everything else to it. That's setting the bar too high. Technically, Zeal can't reach 4 FPA though. It hits 5 times, with the first four swings taking 4 frames each, but the last one takes 8 frames. That's only a little bit faster than Frenzy. Zeal doesn't get quite the bonuses to AR and damage that Frenzy gets, and synergies widen the damage gap even more. Frenzy also boosts attack speed, so it doesn't require as much IAS to reach 5 FPA as Zeal does to reach 4.8 FPA. And because of that, a barbarian can potentially use weapons that are slower or can require less IAS gear, focusing on other aspects instead, and still attack almost as quickly. There are several other differences, like the inability to use a shield, which you mentioned. Paladins can improve Zeal with auras, but barbarians can boost their own power in combat with war cries. Zeal can attack multiple targets, which gives it an advantage over Frenzy, but that becomes a disadvantage when trying to kill a boss surrounded by other monsters (the attacks get spread out, so the boss takes longer to die). Both skills have their advantages and disadvantages, so it's not a simple comparison between maximum possible attack rates. While I wouldn't argue that any skill is really better than Zeal, Frenzy is certainly not weak. It is a very, very strong skill.

Well, a comparision fair enough might be with whirlwind with two 1-hand weapons. What's its attack mode? Thanks!

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Dual-wielding whirlwind can potentially reach 2 FPA (I'd use Grief phase blades), which sounds amazing. I still prefer Frenzy. If you've never tried it, maybe you've got the wrong idea. It hits so hard, so quickly, and so reliably. It lets you zoom around like a maniac with the speed boost. Frenzy is awesome.

Dear Namtar and Archone, thanks a lot for your detailed discussions. So the fastest attacks for frenzy, whirlwind, and zeal are 5, 2 (duel-whielding), and 4.8 frames, right? In this sense, whirlwind looks about twice stronger than zeal. Well, I remember that somebody says that the attacking and running speed boosts of frenzy can be used to other skills, so you can first trigger frenzy, then switch to whirlwind (or concentrate). Is that the best way to use frenzy? However, a problem to me is how you can make sure that you have hitted enough enemies and gained the highest charge of frenzy (like feral rage and maul of druid). This issue could be annoying, isn't it?
I agree that frenzy has the great advantage of gaining special benefits from the secondary weapon which cannot appear in a shield. A good example is the lawbringer rune word: chance to cast decrepify and the sanctuary aura, which overcompensates its shortcoming of low damage. By the way, its "slain monsters rest in peace" only works for the monsters killed by lawbringer, not those killed by the main weapon, right? Then it is still terribly dangerous to visit Nihlathak ...
So I have two questions: 1. What are the other special weapons suitable to frenzy like lawbringer? 2. Which way is better, to keep using frenzy, or to trigger frenzy and then to switch to whirlwind or concentrate?
Thanks a lot!

2. Use Frenzy as mainskill, and dont swap. The movespeed is almost useless if you use WW, and the ias wont be relevant when using any other skill anyways.
It depends on your native attack speed from gear ofc, but you go either WW OR! Frenzy. Not both.

One thing that no one has mentioned so far, is that a WW barb has more skillpoints over for other skills than ww.
While a frenzy barb needs to max synergies.

One thing that no one has mentioned so far, is that a WW barb has more skillpoints over for other skills than ww.
While a frenzy barb needs to max synergies.

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True, but a frenzier can max all synergies (including a weapon mastery) and still easily have points left over to max Battle Orders. Whirlwind has one fewer synergies to worry about, but how much does that really help? More Iron Skin? That's what I ended up doing. It is an advantage. I don't think it's that big of one.

Dear Namtar and Archone, thanks a lot for your detailed discussions. So the fastest attacks for frenzy, whirlwind, and zeal are 5, 2 (duel-whielding), and 4.8 frames, right?

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Correct.

In this sense, whirlwind looks about twice stronger than zeal.

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Well, no. Attack rate is extremely important and the skills that can attack very quickly are some of the strongest in the game, but there are other components to skills. Zeal enhances damage and improves AR. It also hits cycles through multiple targets, so it can potentially kill mobs very quickly. And just because one of these skills is faster than another doesn't mean it is strictly superior. A dual-wielding WW doesn't benefit from a shield, so a two-handed zealot could be using a two-handed weapon. I prefer weapon/shield zealots, though. Even though Zeal does have a bit of a problem if the paladin gets surrounded (the attacks hit different monsters, so monsters don't drop as quickly as if one is using an individually focused attack, like Frenzy), Whirlwind is even harder to control. It shows this cool animation around the barbarian, but he isn't actually necessarily hitting everything in that circle, and he's not hitting all of the targets at 2FPA, he's just potentially reaching 2 FPA. It's still a strong skill, but it's harder to use. I haven't actually tried dual-wielding WW on a barbarian yet, so someone who knows more about that can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a zealot has better DPS against a lone boss than a WW barbarian, on account of being able to make more attacks actually land (WW tends to overshoot a lone enemy, so a lot of the potential hits in the animation have no target, but maybe I'm just bad at it).

Well, I remember that somebody says that the attacking and running speed boosts of frenzy can be used to other skills, so you can first trigger frenzy, then switch to whirlwind (or concentrate). Is that the best way to use frenzy? However, a problem to me is how you can make sure that you have hitted enough enemies and gained the highest charge of frenzy (like feral rage and maul of druid). This issue could be annoying, isn't it?

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Archone beat me to this and covered it quite nicely. The gist of it is that charging up Frenzy and then switching to another skill, while technically possible, isn't worth it.

I agree that frenzy has the great advantage of gaining special benefits from the secondary weapon which cannot appear in a shield. A good example is the lawbringer rune word: chance to cast decrepify and the sanctuary aura, which overcompensates its shortcoming of low damage. By the way, its "slain monsters rest in peace" only works for the monsters killed by lawbringer, not those killed by the main weapon, right? Then it is still terribly dangerous to visit Nihlathak ...

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Well, I suppose one could technically use Find Item or something to destroy corpses before Nihlathak could blow them up, but I don't think it's necessary. One could also Leap past the minions and reach Nihlathak directly. With Frenzy one could use the super speed to circle around the minions and reach Nihlathak. With Whirlwind, one could whirl through everything to reach him. I don't think any of it's necessary. A decent barbarian can do one better and ignore the Corpse Explosions. Nihlathak is no necromancer. He doesn't rapidly unleash huge chains of CE. He seems to only blow a corpse up every few seconds. With a decked out barbarian that has a high Battle Orders and life leech, I'd be comfortable just killing my way through Nihlathak's minions to reach him. Reckless? Maybe.

So I have two questions: 1. What are the other special weapons suitable to frenzy like lawbringer? 2. Which way is better, to keep using frenzy, or to trigger frenzy and then to switch to whirlwind or concentrate?
Thanks a lot!

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Looks like Archone got the main ones. I haven't tried out all combinations yet. I like BotD/Death in ethereal weapons, but there are myriad options. I think Lawbringer would be great, although I haven't tried it yet.

Use Frenzy as mainskill, and dont swap. The movespeed is almost useless if you use WW, and the ias wont be relevant when using any other skill anyways.

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Thanks, Archone. The weapons you suggest have a common feature: they are all very expensive! The highest rune I have ever gotten is Gul (25#) ... And, it seems that I should state the question more clearly: what weapons are suitable for frenzy but NOT for other skills? Last wish, beast, BOTD, grief, and death are all super strong weapons for any skill. Fury is certainly designed for frenzy, but regretably its 209% enhanced damage is a bit small, and it is not indestructible. By the way, one thing I don't understand is that fury has both "ignore target defense" and "-25% target defense", what does that mean? Rift is a fun weapon IF it's much cheaper. How can it uses a Gul when It is far inferior to oath, while oath only uses a Mal (23#)!
About your 2nd point. The faster attack speed cannot be transferred to other skills? That's sad ... Well, that's good to frenzy, sad to other skills ...

Thanks, Archone. The weapons you suggest have a common feature: they are all very expensive! The highest rune I have ever gotten is Gul (25#) ... And, it seems that I should state the question more clearly: what weapons are suitable for frenzy but NOT for other skills?

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None come to mind. Good weapons tend to be good weapons. But keep at it. Collecting good runes can take a while. While some runewords are inordinately expensive, others really can be worked toward pretty reasonably.

Some more runeword options for Frenzy:

Lawbringer. You already mentioned it, but from everything I've seen, it works nicely, just in case you were wondering.
Voice of Reason: I haven't tested it and there was recently a thread in which the possibility of its procs interrupting attacking came up, so I'd be careful with this one. I know it's good on Zeal and Dragon Talon, but I never really tested it on Frenzy.
Crescent Moon: Not quite as great, but it works. I'd hesitate to spend an Um on it.

Uniques:

Stormlash: Better than Crescent Moon, really.
Azurewrath: Another Sanctuary aura one, but I prefer Lawbringer.
Lacerator: Actually very good.
Heaven's Light: Haven't actually seen it on Frenzy, but it would work.
Lightsabre: I'd still think Stormlash if you want lightning damage.
Death Cleaver: Worse than the good runewords, but viable.
Astreon's Iron Wand: I've actually never seen anyone try this that I can think of, but it would work.
Horizon's Tornao: Same deal. Seems like something someone would have used at some point, but I can't recall seeing it.
Bul-Kathos' Children: Not ideal, but it'll be fun. I'm working toward this, but the barbarian isn't quite ready yet.

Last wish, beast, BOTD, grief, and death are all super strong weapons for any skill. Fury is certainly designed for frenzy, but regretably its 209% enhanced damage is a bit small, and it is not indestructible.

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If you want items that are as powerful as the most expensive runewords, well, that's what the most expensive runewords are for.

By the way, one thing I don't understand is that fury has both "ignore target defense" and "-25% target defense", what does that mean?

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Ignore target defense only works on normal monsters (not on champions, uniques, etc.), while -% target defense works against everything.

Rift is a fun weapon IF it's much cheaper. How can it uses a Gul when It is far inferior to oath, while oath only uses a Mal (23#)!
About your 2nd point. The faster attack speed cannot be transferred to other skills? That's sad ... Well, that's good to frenzy, sad to other skills ...

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Not sure where you got the idea that Rift is "far inferior" to Oath. The two are very different. Oath would be a main-hand weapon. Rift would be an off-hand weapon to use alongside Beast.

Ignore target defense doesnt work on unique monsters. Like act bosses, I dont remember if its the same with champions or not.
-% target defense works against them though. So having both is not a bad thing.

Ignore target defense doesnt work on unique monsters. Like act bosses, I dont remember if its the same with champions or not.
-% target defense works against them though. So having both is not a bad thing.

Youll have to check yourself what weapon you can afford!
Theres a lot of different ones, that works, and is cheap!

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Thanks. Yeah, that's rift. It has no enhanced damage, no increased attack speed, emm ... It has at most 430 magic and fire damages, but this too small comparing to the huge hit points of the hell monsters. And iron maiden, what the heck? Would you like to let the monsters hit you anyway? Frozen orb is great, but would that interrupt your attack? So altogether, I don't see why it is worth a Gul. These shortcomings also belong to voice of reason, but it just costs a Lem, which is ok.

If you want items that are as powerful as the most expensive runewords, well, that's what the most expensive runewords are for.

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Thanks, Namtar. I will check the runeword and unique items you list, which is quite fun. On the quoted point, -- the problem of fury is that it is among the most expensive runewords! It costs a Jah, much more expensive than death and grief. This is why I think it's regretable. If its price is close to that of death, I will feel very happy on it.

Technically, Zeal can't reach 4 FPA though. It hits 5 times, with the first four swings taking 4 frames each, but the last one takes 8 frames. That's only a little bit faster than Frenzy. Zeal doesn't get quite the bonuses to AR and damage that Frenzy gets, and synergies widen the damage gap even more. Frenzy also boosts attack speed, so it doesn't require as much IAS to reach 5 FPA as Zeal does to reach 4.8 FPA.

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I'd say a Paladin Zealot with Fanaticism and a Frenzy Barbarian are comparable in terms of attack speed, +% Attack Rating and +% Damage.

One thing that no one has mentioned so far, is that a WW barb has more skillpoints over for other skills than ww.
While a frenzy barb needs to max synergies.

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A post I made in another forum:

onderduiker said:

Since it's actually impossible to maximise all Fire Blast's synergy skills, that should be a clue that it wasn't the intent for maximising synergy skills to be necessary (although given the option, most people will).

Aside from T72on1's point about Berserk, the synergy bonus from Double Swing and Taunt is +% Damage, the same as can be applied by Frenzy itself, Mastery, Strength, auras like Might, and items. Consider the following:

To put it another way, ~72.1% of maximum potential physical attack damage is applied without investing another point in DS or Taunt, increasing to ~85.7% with another 19 points in DS. Equip Fortitude armour (+300% Damage), and that increases to ~78% and ~88.7% respectively.

So it's certainly worth investing some points in synergy skills, but they don't have to be maximised if there are other things on which it's worth spending points.

About your 2nd point. The faster attack speed cannot be transferred to other skills? That's sad ... Well, that's good to frenzy, sad to other skills ...

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The attack speed increase can apply to other Combat Skills (excluding Leap Attack and Whirlwind), but it only lasts for 6 seconds after the last Frenzy hit so it's not really worth it (since to maintain it you'd need to switch back to hit with Frenzy every 5 seconds or so, or it'll expire and you'll have to charge it up all over again).

Not sure where you got the idea that Rift is "far inferior" to Oath. The two are very different. Oath would be a main-hand weapon. Rift would be an off-hand weapon to use alongside Beast.

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Despite its lack of Increased Attack Speed, it might be better to equip Rift as primary weapon since the delay triggered by its Chance to Cast Frozen Orb may have a more significant impact on attack speed when used as a secondary weapon (since the delay will be triggered later in the attack sequence).

Despite its lack of Increased Attack Speed, it might be better to equip Rift as primary weapon since the delay triggered by its Chance to Cast Frozen Orb may have a more significant impact on attack speed when used as a secondary weapon (since the delay will be triggered later in the attack sequence).

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Interesting. I haven't tried Rift as a weapon for Frenzy. There was a thread recently where Dagaz noted that the proc on Voice of Reason was causing interruption for Frenzy. I'd used Voice of Reason with Zeal and with Dragon Talon, but not with Frenzy...

Whenever a skill with a delay is triggered by a Chance to Cast, there's an 11 frame delay from the action frame in which it was triggered, during which no skill which requires an animation can be used. This doesn't interrupt a Frenzy sequence, but if it hasn't expired by the end of a sequence then the next sequence cannot begin until it has. Thus the earlier it triggers in the sequence, the less delay there will be between sequences.

Having done some quick tests, at maximum attack speed (10 frames per sequence, averaging five frames per attack) when Chance to Cast Frozen Orb is triggered by the primary weapon, the sequence length effectively increases to 14 frames (4 frames of the delay remain); when triggered by the secondary weapon, its length effectively increases to 17 frames (7 frames of the delay remain).