SharkHawk wrote:HGH isn't illegal. That's why doctors can prescribe them. They are just as legal as amphetamines. They need to be taken under a doctor's care with a prescription. Now, if you're talking "illegal" in the sense that they are banned by sport, then that's different, because there are exceptions. There are lots of players who take synthetic testosterone. They are under the same "waiver" from a doctor system as those who take adderall and other medications. They have to do the same thing when taking male pattern baldness drugs, and so on. Anything that can trigger a positive must be documented and approved.

I thought you stated somewhere that you were a surgeon. I guess you were joking, or I am mistaking you for somebody else. But Adderall isn't a mask and you saying flat out that our players are "juicing" and the use of adderall as a mask as your reasoning doesn't make any sense. Sorry.

I'm not a surgeon. I'm a neurologist. Big difference. I don't perform surgeries, but often attend surgeries as part of my ongoing research and education, and also as part of the cooperative treatment process. Your neurologist and neurosurgeon work hand-in-hand from day 1 to determine the best course and methods of treatment based on a number of factors, many of which are apparent to one or the other but not both.

Obviously, toxicology and pharma is not my specialty. I can admit that my take on Adderall and HGH is the result of things I've read and heard, so who knows how accurate it is. Perhaps the "masking" part is just that a player can claim that it was Adderall when it was something else and the NFL can not say what it was.

I would still bet good money they were using HGH. I think it's silly that people are getting so worked up and denying that these guys were using HGH. Get a grip. Of course they were. Millions of dollars are at stake, and HGH gives them a clear advantage.

As to HGH being "illegal", we are arguing semantics here. While HGH is not a controlled substance (for good reason), and is not sold over-the-counter (also for good reason), quote:

According to the DEA, “Human growth hormone is not controlled under the Controlled Substances Act (CSA). However, as part of the 1990 Anabolic Steroids Control Act, the distribution and possession, with the intent to distribute, of HGH “for any use...other than the treatment of a disease or other recognized medical condition, where such use has been authorized by the Secretary of Health and Human Services ... and pursuant to the order of a physician ...” was criminalized as a five-year felony under the penalties chapter of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act of the FDA.”

This is absurd to me, and is the direct result of ignorance and hype. The fact that someone could be sent to prison for 5 years for selling HGH is just ludicrous. HGH, if taken in absurdly high dosages, can have long-term negative effects, but is fairly harmless in the short-term and especially at the dosages available on the market. The "war on drugs" in America has produced many artifacts of pure stupidity, but the war against "steroids and PEDs" has produced some of the most stupid results of all. And I am far from the only medical doctor who believes this.

Largent80 wrote:This shit is costing us 2 of our best players. I hate this crap. and I really lost respect for all 3 of these "Seahawks"

I don't understand why you would lose respect for them. Who cares if they were taking HGH? Seriously. They'll stop taking them now, and you won't notice a difference at all. The only people who will see any difference will be the guys on the practice field, maybe. They'll be a few steps slower the day after heavy practices, and will spend a bit more time in the cold tubs. There will be no impact on game day. No NFL team does heavy workouts the day before a game for a reason.

People are overreacting, but whatever. As a Seahawk fan, I'm used to that.

SharkHawk wrote:HGH isn't illegal. That's why doctors can prescribe them. They are just as legal as amphetamines. They need to be taken under a doctor's care with a prescription. Now, if you're talking "illegal" in the sense that they are banned by sport, then that's different, because there are exceptions. There are lots of players who take synthetic testosterone. They are under the same "waiver" from a doctor system as those who take adderall and other medications. They have to do the same thing when taking male pattern baldness drugs, and so on. Anything that can trigger a positive must be documented and approved.

I thought you stated somewhere that you were a surgeon. I guess you were joking, or I am mistaking you for somebody else. But Adderall isn't a mask and you saying flat out that our players are "juicing" and the use of adderall as a mask as your reasoning doesn't make any sense. Sorry.

I'm not a surgeon. I'm a neurologist. Big difference. I don't perform surgeries, but often attend surgeries as part of my ongoing research and education, and also as part of the cooperative treatment process. Your neurologist and neurosurgeon work hand-in-hand from day 1 to determine the best course and methods of treatment based on a number of factors, many of which are apparent to one or the other but not both.

Obviously, toxicology and pharma is not my specialty. I can admit that my take on Adderall and HGH is the result of things I've read and heard, so who knows how accurate it is. Perhaps the "masking" part is just that a player can claim that it was Adderall when it was something else and the NFL can not say what it was.

I would still bet good money they were using HGH. I think it's silly that people are getting so worked up and denying that these guys were using HGH. Get a grip. Of course they were. Millions of dollars are at stake, and HGH gives them a clear advantage.

As to HGH being "illegal", we are arguing semantics here. While HGH is not a controlled substance (for good reason), and is not sold over-the-counter (also for good reason), quote:

According to the DEA, “Human growth hormone is not controlled under the Controlled Substances Act (CSA). However, as part of the 1990 Anabolic Steroids Control Act, the distribution and possession, with the intent to distribute, of HGH “for any use...other than the treatment of a disease or other recognized medical condition, where such use has been authorized by the Secretary of Health and Human Services ... and pursuant to the order of a physician ...” was criminalized as a five-year felony under the penalties chapter of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act of the FDA.”

This is absurd to me, and is the direct result of ignorance and hype. The fact that someone could be sent to prison for 5 years for selling HGH is just ludicrous. HGH, if taken in absurdly high dosages, can have long-term negative effects, but is fairly harmless in the short-term and especially at the dosages available on the market. The "war on drugs" in America has produced many artifacts of pure stupidity, but the war against "steroids and PEDs" has produced some of the most stupid results of all. And I am far from the only medical doctor who believes this.

Just really quickly here.... I'm familiar with what a neurologist is and does. I see one monthly due to a case of myotonia congenita that I was born with. It is a myotonic disorder (hereditary) and in the muscular dystrophy family, but rather than muscle wasting, it causes muscle growth. This is one reason I was a good athlete, because my nerves are constantly firing, which results in increased muscle mass. It is a genetic disorder, that provided me with a definite advantage. The problem is that it causes muscle locking as well, which can lead to many strains and tears, which I also suffered. I have dealt with several neurologists and have yet to deal with one who didn't understand the difference between an amphetamine and a synthetic hormone and how they interact, especially considering that my neurologists have all dealt with brain, nerve, and muscle function and the disorders and how they all interact for 8+ years before ever entering private practice.

I also am surprised that you are still saying that the guys were "juicing" with HGH and tested positive. THERE IS NO TEST FOR HGH IN THE NFL. It doesn't exist. The only way to bust somebody is to catch them getting shipments, and even then, you still can't ban them for using it, because there is no way to prove it unless you catch them using a masking agent, but there not masking agents that are taking for HGH... only for testosterone and precursors and so on. HGH is free and clear in the NFL as far as testing goes as they can't agree on a blood test protocol. Baseball had the problem with HGH and most players who got busted got outed by dealers as part of plea agreements. They tested positive for things like HCG or the clear, or admitted to using in order to not get suspended.

I think you need to get into the research a bit more for the benefit of others. This is an area with tons more to learn and study and develop positive uses. HGH is currently being studied for treatment of my conditions of arachnoiditis and MC (things you probably deal with daily in your practice). I wish more neurologists would put their peer reviewed research time into the benefits of HGH in the treatment of tonic/clonic disorders and incurable spine pain in the arachnid space (arachnoiditis).

You could do the world a lot of good, as these disorders go untreated in many and the suffering is pretty massive for many.

SharkHawk wrote:Just really quickly here.... I'm familiar with what a neurologist is and does. I see one monthly due to a case of myotonia congenita that I was born with. It is a myotonic disorder (hereditary) and in the muscular dystrophy family, but rather than muscle wasting, it causes muscle growth. This is one reason I was a good athlete, because my nerves are constantly firing, which results in increased muscle mass. It is a genetic disorder, that provided me with a definite advantage. The problem is that it causes muscle locking as well, which can lead to many strains and tears, which I also suffered. I have dealt with several neurologists and have yet to deal with one who didn't understand the difference between an amphetamine and a synthetic hormone and how they interact, especially considering that my neurologists have all dealt with brain, nerve, and muscle function and the disorders and how they all interact for 8+ years before ever entering private practice.

I also am surprised that you are still saying that the guys were "juicing" with HGH and tested positive. THERE IS NO TEST FOR HGH IN THE NFL. It doesn't exist. The only way to bust somebody is to catch them getting shipments, and even then, you still can't ban them for using it, because there is no way to prove it unless you catch them using a masking agent, but there not masking agents that are taking for HGH... only for testosterone and precursors and so on. HGH is free and clear in the NFL as far as testing goes as they can't agree on a blood test protocol. Baseball had the problem with HGH and most players who got busted got outed by dealers as part of plea agreements. They tested positive for things like HCG or the clear, or admitted to using in order to not get suspended.

I think you need to get into the research a bit more for the benefit of others. This is an area with tons more to learn and study and develop positive uses. HGH is currently being studied for treatment of my conditions of arachnoiditis and MC (things you probably deal with daily in your practice). I wish more neurologists would put their peer reviewed research time into the benefits of HGH in the treatment of tonic/clonic disorders and incurable spine pain in the arachnid space (arachnoiditis).

You could do the world a lot of good, as these disorders go untreated in many and the suffering is pretty massive for many.

Before we go any further, I should warn you that the number one way to lose any doctor's attention or respect is to question our training, intelligence or research. I have spent the last 24 years of my life in intense research and study (minimum of 40 hours per week on top of my practice), specifically in the field of advanced neurodegenerative disorders (rather than neuromuscular, as is your condition), and this is the area in which my practice specializes.

The highly technical nature of medicine makes it impractical to "quickly" converse with any layman about medicine. This is why most of my colleagues do not stray outside of their little circle of doctors too often. If I were to even touch on a few of the things I dealt with today, it would take 3-5 pages of this forum to debrief a fellow doctor. Even the most basic of topics, among fellow specialists in a given field, are far too complex to allow the type of short conversations appropriate on a web forum. Because of this, I take shortcuts - quick summaries which may be inaccurate, but which get "the general idea" across to someone without any medical training. You don't need to insult my intelligence or training by assuming something so radically incorrect as that I don't know the difference between an amphetamine and a "synthetic hormone." That only makes me think you are being intentionally argumentative and hostile.

About summarizing - I'm sure you can relate. Try explaining your condition to a layman. Your few paragraphs told me little. For instance, is your condition Becker or Thomsen (AS dominant or recessive)? The treatment you receive for each would vary dependent on your own personal symptoms, your age, how advanced, have you had trouble breathing/gagging, what is your level of activity, are you in PT, etc. Even without regular practice with neuromuscular patients, I can also easily point out inaccuracies in your description of your own disorder. It is not caused by "nerves constantly firing", but rather your body's inability to regulate that normal skeletal muscle activity (contraction) through the transfer of chloride ions into the skeletal muscle cells (which relaxes the contraction). The problem is not an excess of "signal along the wire", but rather by a lack of "ground", so to speak. Is this inaccurate? Of course, it is still a gross summarization, and if I was talking to particularly anal-retentive neurologist, they would laugh at the grotesque simplicity (and inaccuracy) of my description. But do I really need to go into the full description of what a chloride channel is, the difference between skeletal muscle and "nerves", the various types of proteins and their roles in a skeletal muscle cell, how the genetic mutation of CLCN1 expresses itself in the different forms of MC, etc? I figure you must have some education about your own condition, so you probably don't need a full 10-page description of every detail. Would that matter to your treatment? Would you consider your neurologist incompetent if he did not go into such detail with you? Because none of us do. We see you as laymen, and so we take shortcuts. Does that mean we lack education? I can tell you right now that for every hour you have spent reading about your condition, your neurologists have spent 100 hours doing continued research that goes far beyond your own training and understanding of your condition.

As to the use of HGH, I've heard very little research regarding its use in the treatment of MC. But again, this is not my area of practice. As to steroids, Becker's is the only form of MC in which immunosupressant steroids have shown benefits that I'm aware of, and that is only in more serious cases where the primary objective is to suspend the condition and its symptoms, as prednisone does NOT improve or treat MC directly. Indeed, I would be surprised if any neurologist saw this as the best treatment. Most current research tends to move away from the production of similar proteins (utrophin) and instead focuses on inhibition of cyclophillin which actually reduces cell damage and has shown great promise (according to my colleagues). Perhaps you should ask your neurologist about Alisporivir, as I've heard it has shown some promise over in Europe in treating many different forms of dystrophy. Maybe you've already tried it. If not, it's worth taking the time to ask. At the least, your neurologist will get a kick out of the fact that you've done some real research and you're not talking about crystal therapy or magic herbs.

Anyway... back to football. That's what I come here for, and that's what I enjoy in the little spare time I allow myself. Again, I'm not sure, nor do I care, what specific drugs our players were taking. I only say HGH because that is the only PED that would really benefit a "speed guy" like a defensive back or receiver. One look at Sherman makes it obvious he is not taking any anabolic steroids. And I'm also positive they were not taking Adderall, nor did they test positive for it. Nobody from the NFL will ever release what they actually tested positive. The CBA guarantees that. But no way a guy who is doing wind sprints would be taking any significant dose of Adderall or any other amphetamine. There would be no benefit and in fact, it would hamper their performance.

Man, you seriously took my plea to study the benefits of a drug that you said yourself shouldn't be illegal and had so many benefits as an insult and now you're going to use it as a reason for a freeze out? Sounds kind of like you've just placed yourself on a massive pedestal and left the rest of us behind because I stated factually that the NFL and others still haven't found an HGH test they like, and that Adderall 'abuse' as it were isn't necessary as a masking agent of other drugs you claimed players are juicing on, when the NFL can't even test for said drugs. All they would be doing it putting themselves into the drug program for adderall use rather than nothing at all if they used HGH, since as of now they'd walk clean. It's counterintuitive to take a banned substance to cover a banned substance that can't be tested for or can a player be punished for using.

I am at the point where I am confused at how what I say comes across as an insult (when it was never intended that way and by your own admission you're the expert on the matter of neurological funcion), just because I point out that I am familiar with what a neurologist does, and I do know some who do surgical/interventional procedures (my current neuro has taken muscle tissue samples via biopsy, run nerve testing using needles, electricity, and so on and so forth). My neuro also has never worked with my neurosurgeon for any of these cases. The neurosurgeon didn't treat the tonic/clonic disorders, or anything that was considered chronic... they merely operate on me when I say... blow up a nerve space with a blown disc that compresses the nerves and prevents my leg from moving. You called me out for claiming you were a surgeon. Yes, you are correct in that you never said you were one. You indeed say you were a neurologist. However... you claimed that I had effectively shut down a discussion by having the nerve to "question you", but in the same manner you questioned me. I feel that as somebody who has 2 of the conditions that you would specifically treat in your practice (if you had a patient come to you with them, due to their rarity and underdiagnosis by GP's who pass them your way) and have been treated for them for the better part of 40 years would also give me a pretty good insight into what you do in your field.

I have multiple college degrees myself. I hold multiple teaching degrees and licenses in many subjects, levels, and locales. I am a researcher just as you are and am a member of that fine field of academia along with many other pursuits.

My motives for pointing out the situation with HGH was merely to inform you once again that our players could not have tested positive for it as you claim they could have, but I did attempt to say (and apparently did a poor job of it) that if you are on the research side, rather than the other side (many doctors do this, and more power to them.... we need researchers desperately), then I had a selfish plea that merely said if you look into HGH and how it is being used, then look at it as a treatment for arachnoiditis and the type of brain injuries players are suffering at an alarming rate. There is little in the way of research being done, because neurologists in general have written it off as being incurable and the intractable pain has to continue. There is a large amount of anecdotal evidence building that says that it helps. Guess who would benefit greatly from this treatment? NFL PLAYERS! Not only could it work in the arachnid space, but if it works there, then it could work in the brain. See where I'm going with this? The very drug that has also been dragged into and demonized in this conversation is another drug that hast he potential to help NFL players who are being hurt permanently and having permanent brain damage with the tangles in their brain. If HGH can stop the tangles and treat them in my lower spine (you know.... the vestigial brain), then why could it have benefits in the upper (thinking man's) brain? There are possibilities that are huge. ADD meds are also helpful for those who have suffered brain injury because of their impulsiveness and depression post playing career (and many in their playing career).

The NFL is carrying out a hard and fast stance against two classes of medications that they feel are ruining their game, but are actually two of the medication classes with a high possibility of treating the very players who are getting injured and have gotten injured and are currently suing the league.

I thought it was an interesting research subject and have asked every doctor I know to get involved and hopefully do something to help those of us with different conditions.

I think you hit on a real key point here though... and I'll quote "Before we go any further, I should warn you that the number one way to lose any doctor's attention or respect is to question our training, intelligence or research. I have spent the last 24 years of my life in intense research and study (minimum of 40 hours per week on top of my practice), specifically in the field of advanced neurodegenerative disorders (rather than neuromuscular, as is your condition), and this is the area in which my practice specializes. "

Replace the word "doctor's" with anything that anybody else does here and "field of advanced neurodegenerative disorders....." again with what anybody else does and you'll see that what you're doing is placing what you do on a pedestal above the rest of us and stating that you'll disrespect me (or us all apparently) if we question you in any way about your practice/specialty, and that by asking probing and in depth questions or daring to question your understanding of something medical (especially in this case where you have a serious bit of confusion as it pertains to NFL HGH testing and your claiming as fact that our players juiced and used adderall to cover) just seems a bit much.

We are all experts on something and I don't see guys in other professions saying, "Whoa... hold up... if you're going to question me about anything at all and use facts in your argument, then I'm not going to share any of my super secret information from you, because I'm a doctor, and you aren't, so my information is more valuable than yours somehow."

If you don't feel like sharing that part of your life and discussing medical matters, then that is your own choice, but I'd hate to think that you would come to this board and if somebody ever disagreed with you on something that you do or are that it means that you will take your ball and go home. This is what we do... we share our expertise, we question those who know more than us, we try to reach consensus, and we gripe about the team.

I have been berated over my profession, and told how crappy our public schools are and how the way I teach is "stupid" compared to some other teaching methods that certain individuals state. Guess what? I don't care. I don't threaten to pull my expertise on the matters of educational law, policy, mandates, my extensive knowledge (15 years of intense study and work on the 'simple' matter of Title IX and what it has meant to this nation and access to school's, funding, facilities, and education... and yes athletic endeavors. But FYI sports are merely the tiny tip of the iceberg and have made Title IX the most misunderstood thing to take place in the US education system in history, but I'll explain my knowledge of it for days with members here if they ever want to, and have for years upon years, because I feel it is in a way my duty to share that knowledge with my friends here and I don't need their "respect" in order to chime in with my expertise. I am up to the challenge and feel that when I know something then it is up to me to share it. That's what we do in a community, and I see us as a collaborative community of learners.

Right now we're all collaborating on what this adderall business means and what it boils down to in the NFL and how it will impact things moving forward. As a neurologist, I thought you might have a different spin due to its treatment of those who have suffered brain injuries, as many NFL players have. You took what I said though and got angry with me.

I fully recognize as an educator, former administrator, university student teacher supervisor, new teacher mentor, state land trust and school community chair, a spouse of a wife who is at the top of her field with a master's plus all hours to give her the doctoral equivalency in math education (just needs to finish thesis) and 17 years at the top of her field in the highest scoring public school in the western US departmentally, and the son of a university professor and also of a parent who was a secondary level teacher, award winning coach, and was the man in charge of extremely high level government facilities in the PNW region that we ALL have background and experience that we bring here and don't speak of and justify everything we do, and that we all change how we present information based on the audience.

But.... I feel that if anybody here took the attitude that you're suggesting here about "if anybody speaks to me in a certain way, then you will get no info from me) then we'd all be spinning our wheels. We have engineers, scientists, lawyers, doctors, nurses, IT gurus, store managers, cooks, entrepeneurs, college students, high school students, high level athletes, coaches, men and women who serve us proudly in the military and have access to stuff we could never imagine, writers, retired folks, and those like me who talk too much. Each of us makes this place valuable and our shared information is what makes this place so special. To say that if anybody ever dares point out an inaccuracy will lead to negative consequences, then I feel you're really shortchanging yourself, because that means anybody can play that card at any time, and that's a very bad thing for this very place. There is too much info to be had, and if I didn't have breakdowns from guys on different plays and such (our X's and O's guys) then I wouldn't know half as much about offenses than I do now. I would like to think that I've shared enough to earn my keep too.

But by all means.... if you feel that you've been insulted and somehow I've questioned your credentials and capabilities to the point where you've lost any 'respect' and I've created a 'shut down' or 'freeze out' on your field of knowledge, then my mistake. I take full responsibility group. I was merely attempting to shed some light on a plight to somebody who said they are on the research side and I was hopeful (and selfishly attempted) that I could try to find somebody who would join in the project that is informally set at this stage to build studies of HGH and its use in those who suffered from traumatic (or even semi-traumatic) brain injury, and whether it helped create recovery where it was otherwise thought impossible. The second part was that there is a possibility due to stimulants impact on nerve firing/brain function, that it could be used consistently to help players overcome the effects of concussions more quickly. I've seen it work miracles for those who had minds that had seemingly turned off like a light switch, and I feel that from my non-medical degree view that it could do the same for those who took a knock to the head and may be a key to helping to unlock the mystery of what happened to guys like Junior Seau and Dave Duerson, and may prevent further injuries and deaths in the future through the use of said drugs either alone, or in a cocktail that helps to repair or to open neuropathic pathways as the brain "reroutes" its connections and helps the player re-establish their brain function.

The possibilities are limitless and somebody is going to change the world with that research and finding the combos that work. I am certain of it.

Thanks for your time and dedication. Apparently I've made another "e-enemy" for life, but I do feel that I wasn't speaking as a knucklehead who had no idea what a neurologist does and was merely pointing out that I had worked with many and found that some had more of a knack for specific areas than others, but all of them knew what I was dealing with and were familiar on all past and present first, second, third, and non-interventional treatment options are/were.

HansGruber wrote:Adderal is popular with athletes (and banned in sports) because it is a masking agent for "steroids"/PEDs; ie winny, dbol, etc.

Our guys were taking it to mask other things. They were juicing. No doubt in my mind.

Call me naive, but why would you take a masking agent that carries the exact same penalties as the product it is masking?

I keep seeing this in forums on the internet, but I have yet to see a "reputable" source as to adderall's masking capabilities. I keep asking people where they heard or read about it and have yet to get "reputable" answers. I'm not saying these people are making it up, but I'm starting to think they wrote it down themselves and then read it somewhere.

HansGruber wrote:Adderal is popular with athletes (and banned in sports) because it is a masking agent for "steroids"/PEDs; ie winny, dbol, etc.

Our guys were taking it to mask other things. They were juicing. No doubt in my mind.

Call me naive, but why would you take a masking agent that carries the exact same penalties as the product it is masking?

I keep seeing this in forums on the internet, but I have yet to see a "reputable" source as to adderall's masking capabilities. I keep asking people where they heard or read about it and have yet to get "reputable" answers. I'm not saying these people are making it up, but I'm starting to think they wrote it down themselves and then read it somewhere.

No kidding. I kept looking, and all I came across was some reference to it being a diuretic. There are plenty of diuretics that won't get you banned.

Hans, I am sure you are a very good doctor. But you were wrong on that one. There is no test for HGH, so probably most of the league is on it. But no way were these guys using Adderall to hide it.