B.O. should stay out of this. I guess a failing econamy is not enough for him to handle. :whistling:

walt cowan

03-25-2012, 09:20

how far can they stretch that rubber band?

DOC44

03-25-2012, 09:47

Use Google images "Travon Martin myspace" to see a more current picture of the young boy instead of the 5 year old pix often presented by MSM.

Would post it but the link has bad words in it and they won't post.

Doc44

Big Mad Dawg

03-25-2012, 09:54

He was a good boy the whole suspension from school was a mistake I am sure.

AA#5

03-25-2012, 11:22

Well, the shooter has a conviction for assault on a police officer which was plea-bargained down.

Right now, no one except the two of them know what really happened, but Mr. Zimmerman did start it by playing cop.

coastal4974

03-25-2012, 11:29

Well, the shooter has a conviction for assault on a police officer which was plea-bargained down.

Right now, no one except the two of them know what really happened, but Mr. Zimmerman did start it by playing cop.

How do you plea-bargain a conviction?

snerd

03-25-2012, 11:29

Well, the shooter has a conviction for assault on a police officer which was plea-bargained down......
Excellent mincing of words to distort the truth. There was "NO" conviction. Ever.

"....... In reality, Zimmerman had been arrested in 2005 at a UCF-area bar and charged with resisting arrest without violence. He completed a pretrial-diversion program, meaning the case was officially dropped, and he wound up with no conviction on his record. Itís not clear when, but police did check Zimmermanís criminal record and know about that arrest........"

Doc44
You have the wrong Trayvon Martin facebook page. Speaking of myths and half truths.

Randy

DOC44

03-25-2012, 13:59

You have the wrong Trayvon Martin facebook page. Speaking of myths and half truths.

Randy

I don't have the wrong page... the other sites on the internet have the wrong page and are making this presentation... or maybe YOU are wrong. Who knows? This whole thing has grown to something far twisted from the truth of that night.

Doc44

steveksux

03-25-2012, 14:02

I don't have the wrong page... the other sites on the internet have the wrong page and are making this presentation... or maybe YOU are wrong. Who knows? This whole thing has grown to something far twisted from the truth of that night.

Doc44Yeah, you do. The right facebook page has one of the same pics that the newpapers have been running.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1353307542&sk=info

Randy

DOC44

03-25-2012, 14:14

Yeah, you do. The right facebook page has one of the same pics that the newpapers have been running.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1353307542&sk=info

Randy

I did not get those links from a facebook page. They are from sites put up by others on the web.

I smell another Duke Lacross deal coming for Big Al and Uncle Jessie when all the truth is made public.

Doc44

callihan_44

03-25-2012, 21:19

now chucky says "we need to look closer at the stand ur ground laws"....wouldnt you know, democrats to the rescue

LASTRESORT20

03-25-2012, 21:39

I smell another Duke Lacross deal coming for Big Al and Uncle Jessie when all the truth is made public.

Doc44

YUP...Thanks Doc for the share.

steveksux

03-25-2012, 22:24

I did not get those links from a facebook page. They are from sites put up by others on the web.

Doc44You're the one passing it along here.

Randy

Big Mad Dawg

03-25-2012, 22:54

What a surprise the truth is not what the media portrayed and the bleeding heart cry baby liberals swallowed hook, line and sinker.

Right now Rev Al and Rev Jesse be running around saying praise the lord mo money be on the way.

DOC44

03-26-2012, 06:26

You're the one passing it along here.

Randy

You ever pass anything along here.... besides bull****?

Doc44

Goaltender66

03-26-2012, 06:59

To borrow a phrase from Gwalchmai, I have a reflexive antipathy toward canonization efforts as we've seen with Trayvon here. I think it started with the cynical presentation of photos of him as a 13 year old.

The reality here is that this "kid" was 17 years old, 6'0 and 147 lbs. A star football player who was under a 5 day school suspension.

Heck, Oscar De La Hoya was no more than 147 lbs when he was fighting, stood 5'9 or so, and would still kick my ass without even thinking about it even though I have 3 inches and 100 lbs on him. So I'm not convinced here about the whole "disparity" thing. Bottom line, Trayvon didn't have to be a gangster thug to be capable of greviously injuring someone.

There has been a huge media press here to create a judgement in advance of knowing the facts. Why accomodate them? The media wants a narrative, but that doesn't mean we have to supply it to them. Keep an open mind, don't prejudge, and remember that what you know is mostly what the media wants you to know, but no more.

He was a good boy the whole suspension from school was a mistake I am sure.

For the record, he was suspended from school for tardiness. That will surely qualify him as a gang banger in your book I am sure.

NDCent

03-26-2012, 08:07

For the record, he was suspended from school for tardiness.

I suppose if he had been caught stealing they would have given him 100 bucks. :dunno:

Big Mad Dawg

03-26-2012, 09:31

For the record, he was suspended from school for tardiness. That will surely qualify him as a gang banger in your book I am sure.

And in your book he is a saint waiting for his ride to heaven.

Goaltender66

03-26-2012, 14:32

For the record, he was suspended from school for tardiness. That will surely qualify him as a gang banger in your book I am sure.

He was suspended for having an empty Baggie of pot.

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coastal4974

03-26-2012, 14:43

For the record, he was suspended from school for tardiness. That will surely qualify him as a gang banger in your book I am sure.

:rofl:Do you just make this stuff up or get it all from the DU? http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/whylookhere/smilielol5.gif

m51

03-26-2012, 14:47

:rofl:Do you just make this stuff up or get it all from the DU? http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/whylookhere/smilielol5.gif

Update, a little weed residue was found in his book bag too, still not enough info yet. I need more evidence of the incident. But remember there will only be one living survivor to tell the story.

Goaltender66

03-26-2012, 14:52

Update, a little weed residue was found in his book bag too, still not enough info yet. I need more evidence of the incident. But remember there will only be one living survivor to tell the story.

Actually, the Martin family confirms the reason for the suspension: possession of the empty pot baggie.

Not sure what Zimmerman would know about the suspension or what "story" he'd be telling in that regard.

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m51

03-26-2012, 14:54

:rofl:Do you just make this stuff up or get it all from the DU? http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/whylookhere/smilielol5.gif

LOL, yeah just challenge the masses here and it's always the same old tired song, do you get everything from the DU, or you must work with them. Come on, get some new material. It's getting more stale than Romney campaign speech.

Ahh, the "white Hispanic." After they dumped "Hispanic" as a "race" and made it an "ethnicity," now they can classify people into white and black along with all of the other easy-to-draw lines. "Blacks" make up this percent and have that widespread belief. But a "black Hispanic" is hugely culturally different than a black person of African origin with no Hispanic origin. Same with "white people."

I tend to check the box marked "white" (when I feel like checking a box at all). But the whole thing strikes me as a giant social engineering experiment.

ChuteTheMall

03-26-2012, 15:10

Actually, the Martin family confirms the reason for the suspension: possession of the empty pot baggie.

If marijuana had been legalized, this could all have been prevented.

Stay in school, don't munch out on Skittles and canned iced tea all day.

What a surprise the truth is not what the media portrayed and the bleeding heart cry baby liberals swallowed hook, line and sinker.

It wasn't just liberals who took the bait, see:
http://www.vdare.com/articles/lynching-george-zimmerman-overwhelming-america-s-historic-white-majority

steveksux

03-26-2012, 19:30

You ever pass anything along here.... besides bull****?

Doc44 Says the guy that gets upset when he's informed he's the one posting bull****.. :rofl:

Did you ever stop to think that a thread about myths and half truths in this case was supposed to be about exposing them, instead of spreading them? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Just a thought. Might want to try that for a change. Thought. Can be scary at first, don't be deterred. It gets easier with practice. Correcting mistakes usually works better than digging in your heels and being an Adam Henry about it. Don't hate me. I'm just the messenger.

Randy

Slug71

03-26-2012, 20:06

I started a thread over in GNG but it got locked. Guessing wrong place....
This is a quote from my first post;

But what if by doing this creates the biggest backfire on them yet?
Since most street gangs are generally Black or Hispanic, what if this starts causing major problems of the streets around the country because of this? This could put many citizens and LEO in a very dangerous position. A LOT more innocent lives could be lost. Why? Because of media ignorance. AGAIN. I hope it doesnt come to that, but if it does, I hope the media get their @$$es handed to them in a MAJOR way!!

Thoughts?

Still kinda think this is quite possible...

DOC44

03-26-2012, 20:18

Randy,

There are a lot more of those fake pictures on the web now and there will probably be even more tomorrow.

It gonna keep you busy setting the world straight on this topic.

Doc44

nmk

03-26-2012, 20:37

You have the wrong Trayvon Martin facebook page. Speaking of myths and half truths.

Randy

The word irony doesn't seem to cover it.

"Ef the media for their lies and misinformation, here's some of my own! Oh wait, it's not mine. I'm just spreading what I heard..."

:faint:

DocCasualty

03-26-2012, 20:51

If marijuana had been legalized, this could all have been prevented.
Are you suggesting that if and when MJH was ever legalized in the US that it would we permissible to have even traces of drugs and paraphernalia on school property? While I think at some level these "zero tolerance" rules have gotten ridiculous, given the fact a kid can't even wear a Budweiser t-shirt to school, I seriously doubt it would ever be permissible to have your bag of pot (empty or not) and a pipe on school grounds.
Stay in school, don't munch out on Skittles and canned iced tea all day.Now that sounds like sound advice for any student.

Allfal

03-26-2012, 21:22

Now there is a new article in the Miami herald. It states there was a previous school suspension from October. Evidently little Tray was found in possesion of a backpack containing womens jewelry, including wedding bands and diamond ear rings, along with a screwdriver. He claimed he was holding it for a friend. The article describes the screwdiver as being described as a burglary tool in the report.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

DOC44

03-26-2012, 21:27

Now there is a new article in the Miami herald. It states there was a previous school suspension from October. Evidently little Tray was found in possesion of a backpack containing womens jewelry, including wedding bands and diamond ear rings, along with a screwdriver. He claimed he was holding it for a friend. The article describes the screwdiver as being described as a burglary tool in the report.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

Had there been problems with breakins in Zimmerman's communuty?

Doc44

Allfal

03-26-2012, 21:35

Had there been problems with breakins in Zimmerman's communuty?

Doc44

Previous articles stated that there had been some burglaries in the community and that young black males were the suspects. I have no idea if that part is true, but I have read it.

DocCasualty

03-26-2012, 22:06

Had there been problems with breakins in Zimmerman's communuty?

Doc44
See link on this page, Burglary Reports. http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html

Big Mad Dawg

03-27-2012, 01:44

For the record, he was suspended from school for tardiness. That will surely qualify him as a gang banger in your book I am sure.

Ok just for the record he was suspended from school for tardiness and being in possession of drug baggy and pipe = not that dedicated to an education.

We also now know he was caught with stolen property and break in tools, do you think maybe he needed some extra cash for drugs. Just a guess he seems to have had a history of use.

This is just what has come to light so far but just maybe you are right a real honest hard working Boy Scout, Right?

Gang Banger I donít know but if it quacks and waddles like a duck it probably isnít a confused eagle.:dunno:

Big Mad Dawg

03-27-2012, 02:16

LOL, yeah just challenge the masses here and it's always the same old tired song, do you get everything from the DU, or you must work with them. Come on, get some new material. It's getting more stale than Romney campaign speech.

The man who did the killing is supposed to be treated as a credible witness to what happened? Really?

Brucev

03-27-2012, 05:10

Are you suggesting that if and when MJH was ever legalized in the US that it would we permissible to have even traces of drugs and paraphernalia on school property? While I think at some level these "zero tolerance" rules have gotten ridiculous, given the fact a kid can't even wear a Budweiser t-shirt to school, I seriously doubt it would ever be permissible to have your bag of pot (empty or not) and a pipe on school grounds.
Now that sounds like sound advice for any student.

Like it or not, teenagers experiment. They've done it for years. They've done it racing cars illegally. They've done it skate boarding in prohibited areas. They've done it by going swimming in areas that were off-limits. They've done it by "smoking in the boys room" and elsewhere. They've done it by under aged drinking of beer and alcohol. And, they've done it by smoking marijuana ... just like adults. The presence of "trace elements" of marijuana in a backpack, etc. is simply irrelevant to this matter. Martin was not shot and killed because he was running/selling drugs. At the time when he was killed he was walking to the home of a family member with a bag of Skittles in his hand. It was the other man who followed him... got out out of his car... initiated a confrontation... and then pulled a gun and shot and killed Martin.

Bruce H

03-27-2012, 05:37

One person was attacked. The attacker died for his actions. Things worked out just like they were supposed to instead of how the media wants.

Ruble Noon

03-27-2012, 05:44

The man who did the killing is supposed to be treated as a credible witness to what happened? Really?

The other guy really isn't in any condition to recount his side of the story.

Gunboat1

03-27-2012, 05:45

Physical evidence and eyewitness testimony seem to be backing up the shooter's version of events. Now we see evidence that the dead guy has a history of illegal behavior and that he is not the innocent child portrayed by the MSM and professional race baiters.

This is looking like a justifiable shooting.

maxsnafu

03-27-2012, 05:54

The man who did the killing is supposed to be treated as a credible witness to what happened? Really?

What evidence do you have that he's lying?

ChuteTheMall

03-27-2012, 06:14

The other guy really isn't in any condition to recount his side of the story.

One story, end of story?

Cavalry Doc

03-27-2012, 06:27

Bottom line guys, there are no saints in this story, and some very crucial details missing. There really is no way to tell who's the good guy here yet, if there is one.

It's also evident that the professional race baiters and the gun control crowd are going to push this for all it's worth. Hang on, it's gonna be a wild ride.

Big Mad Dawg

03-27-2012, 07:14

Like it or not, teenagers experiment. They've done it for years. They've done it racing cars illegally. They've done it skate boarding in prohibited areas. They've done it by going swimming in areas that were off-limits. They've done it by "smoking in the boys room" and elsewhere. They've done it by under aged drinking of beer and alcohol. And, they've done it by smoking marijuana ... just like adults.

Do you really know what happened? It seems like there is now speculation that Martin was possibly involved with burglary. Just like your speculating he was an angel others are speculating he was not so innocent. Where do you draw the line in harmless experimenting? If you run with the wrong group you may end up in a bad place facing a possible life ending position even experimenting has a price.

But then Martin gained sainthood by dying, right?

DocCasualty

03-27-2012, 10:28

Like it or not, teenagers experiment. They've done it for years. They've done it racing cars illegally. They've done it skate boarding in prohibited areas. They've done it by going swimming in areas that were off-limits. They've done it by "smoking in the boys room" and elsewhere. They've done it by under aged drinking of beer and alcohol. And, they've done it by smoking marijuana ... just like adults. The presence of "trace elements" of marijuana in a backpack, etc. is simply irrelevant to this matter.
Except it's relevant to the post to which I was responding. That poster stated that if MJH was legal, none of this would have happened, indicating that Martin would not have been suspended in that case and sent to Sanford by his mother to serve out his detention. This, as I indicated would never be the case. Even if pot were legal, it would still not be allowed in the possession of a minor on school grounds. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't read the quote I was responding to, otherwise yours is a straw man argument to the point I made. Otherwise I agree with what you said in that paragraph.

Martin was not shot and killed because he was running/selling drugs. At the time when he was killed he was walking to the home of a family member with a bag of Skittles in his hand. It was the other man who followed him... got out out of his car... initiated a confrontation... and then pulled a gun and shot and killed Martin.Again, I never said anything that implicated Martin's use of drugs or not, or whether he was selling drugs or not. I'll be surprised if THC is not found on his toxicology screen, though doubt that played much, if any role in this. I'll let the finders of fact try to determine if he was just a typical 17 year old young man or if there is some back story relevant to the case.

As far as your interpretation of events, you're entitled to whatever opinion you wish, though we do not have all the facts. What you've said might end up being the case, though at this point with the information we have, Zimmerman just may have acted with justification. To say that he initiated a confrontation is purely speculative at this point.

As I've stated elsewhere, I'll wait for all of the known facts to come out before making a judgement, which may or may not agree with the triers of fact.

Personally I think this was a tragedy for both men, their families and community, as well as the rest of society. Too many on both sides of the fence have already reached their conclusion without knowing all of what has been found out so far, and what will be admissible by law and meet the burden of proof. Those who are fanning the flames of hate should be ashamed, regardless how right they think they might be at this point.

Skyhook

03-27-2012, 10:49

What a surprise the truth is not what the media portrayed and the bleeding heart cry baby liberals swallowed hook, line and sinker.

Right now Rev Al and Rev Jesse be running around saying praise the lord mo money be on the way.

The man who did the killing is supposed to be treated as a credible witness to what happened? Really?

I realize a lot of Glock Talk members don't really own guns, but that would certainly be an interesting position to take if you did. "I carry a gun for self defense and if I have to shoot somebody nobody should believe my story (even if it's the only one and is supported by all the evidence), because I'm the shooter.":upeyes:

brickboy240

03-27-2012, 14:27

What a friggin circus this has become.

If this kid was white...nobody would even know this went down, minus the family.

- brickboy240

Cavalry Doc

03-27-2012, 14:32

What a friggin circus this has become.

If this kid was white...nobody would even know this went down, minus the family.

- brickboy240

Never let a crisis foot waste, even if you have to invent the feeling that there IS a crisis.

Kablam

03-27-2012, 14:39

What a friggin circus this has become.

If this kid was white...nobody would even know this went down, minus the family.

- brickboy240

Yup. And if the shooter was black, nobody would be pushing it either.

G-19

03-27-2012, 14:40

Everyone seems to forget. What matters in this case is what happened on the night in question. His being suspended holds no bearing on this incident.

It all boils down to if Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin. Was Martin a threat when Zimmerman pulled the trigger? Did Zimmerman or Martin instigate or perpetuate the the situation? Was Zimmerman allowed to be CCWing while acting in his role of Neighborhood Watch? Did Martin attack Zimmerman? Why Zimmerman chased him after 911 told him not to? Those are the types of questions that will be looked at.

None of us really know what happened that night, and until the details come out it is pointless to place blame on either person.

As much as it sucks for him, Zimmerman will go through he// till this is over. The media is just making it worse on him by reporting partial facts and conjecture.

I hope it comes out as a justified shoot, because it just be more fodder for the anti-gun nuts if it comes out a bad shoot.

cowboywannabe

03-27-2012, 14:51

zimmerman is a puerto rican jew, but "white" fits the racist's agenda better.

There are a lot more of those fake pictures on the web now and there will probably be even more tomorrow.

It gonna keep you busy setting the world straight on this topic.

Doc44Doc, really just talking about your post with that pic, this thread. Not sure why you're so committed to spreading falsehoods. Kind of baffling.

Randy

steveksux

03-27-2012, 15:46

I realize a lot of Glock Talk members don't really own guns, but that would certainly be an interesting position to take if you did. "I carry a gun for self defense and if I have to shoot somebody nobody should believe my story (even if it's the only one and is supported by all the evidence), because I'm the shooter.":upeyes:If there was some decent evidence of the crucial points, that would be one thing. Zimmerman's story is more accurately described as supported by the lack of evidence.

The crucial point if I'm not mistaken is who was the aggressor at the time of the shooting.

You can start out the victim, chase your attacker down and become the aggressor.

So its not clear at all who started it, if the one that started it tried to disengage and the former victim became the aggressor during the incident.

...... How about phsyical evidence and eye witness accounts?
We'll have none of that!! The left has already told you what happened and that's all you need to know! They've committed all of their resources to this fairytale.

Cavalry Doc

03-27-2012, 20:07

Yup. And if the shooter was black, nobody would be pushing it either.

Was thinking the same thing earlier. How many African American males were killed by other African American Males this year already??

If this kid was white...nobody would even know this went down, minus the family.

- brickboy240

Was thinking the same thing earlier. How many African American males were killed by other African American Males this year already??

How many of those African American males were detained at the scene of those shootings and not arrested or charged even weeks later?

Seems to be a rather large blind spot required to sustain that fantasy you guys have got going there.

Randy

DocCasualty

03-27-2012, 20:52

How many of those African American males were detained at the scene of those shootings and not arrested or charged even weeks later?

I'm guessing the prevalence would be pretty high for detention, arrest and charges. Do you have any stats which compare that between the races? I was just looking at the FBI's UCR stats and don't recall a category like that. Any suggestions where one could find that info?

TBO

03-27-2012, 22:06

Was thinking the same thing earlier. How many African American males were killed by other African American Males this year already??
No money/power in that.

DocCasualty

03-27-2012, 22:38

Was thinking the same thing earlier. How many African American males were killed by other African American Males this year already??
Here's the stats for 2010, the last complete year in the FBI's UCR. NB-this is for single offender/single victim, accounting for the discrepancy in the lower overall homicide rate for the year. (click to enlarge)

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm276/DocCasualty/ucr06.png

PartyBible

03-27-2012, 22:48

Here's the stats for 2010, the last complete year in the FBI's UCR. NB-this is for single offender/single victim, accounting for the discrepancy in the lower overall homicide rate for the year. (click to enlarge)

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm276/DocCasualty/ucr06.png

Turn that into a rate say per100,000 and you have something comparable.

DocCasualty

03-27-2012, 23:00

Turn that into a rate say per100,000 and you have something comparable.
Yeah, the raw data is a bit deceptive for comparative purposes, isn't it?

Allfal

03-27-2012, 23:49

The homicide rates really are not relevant to the current situation. The more information that is released and the longer GZ goes without being charged is more significant.

Given the current environment, if they had a serious charge to lay against GZ they would have placed it. That does not mean that there will not be some bs state or, God forbid, fed charge pressed to placate the masses. That's very possible and very unfortunate.

As more information is released it becomes more clear that TM had a history that fits into GZ's explanation to the police at the time of the shooting. GZ could not have known this info prior to the incident.

We argue here if this was a good shoot. It does not seem to be. It does appear to be a legal shoot. Both parties could have responded in a different manner and avoided it. that's past now. At this time we have knee jerk reactions from both sides that cloud the issue. With the evidence available to us, at this time, it strongly appears that this shooting was legit self defense.

series1811

03-28-2012, 03:51

Bottom line guys, there are no saints in this story, and some very crucial details missing. There really is no way to tell who's the good guy here yet, if there is one.

It's also evident that the professional race baiters and the gun control crowd are going to push this for all it's worth. Hang on, it's gonna be a wild ride.

That's it. Sometimes there is not a good guy. Sometimes, two idiots meet up and one of them dies. Happens a lot, whether people believe it or not.

This killing didn't have to happen. It sounds like either one of them could have made the intervening move that would have stopped it from happening. Neither did, and one of them got killed.

That's life when two morons collide.

But, it's also why this one is an interesting case, I guess. If it were clear cut as to culpability on one side, it would be boring and it wouldn't have had all of these threads and comments. It will be a great law school case one day if it ever makes it to an appeals court.

Bren

03-28-2012, 05:00

If there was some decent evidence of the crucial points, that would be one thing. Zimmerman's story is more accurately described as supported by the lack of evidence.

The crucial point if I'm not mistaken is who was the aggressor at the time of the shooting.

You can start out the victim, chase your attacker down and become the aggressor.

So its not clear at all who started it, if the one that started it tried to disengage and the former victim became the aggressor during the incident.

Randy

We must have seen different evidence, since what I've seen says, 100%, that zimmerman was getting his head beat against the sidewalk right before he shot. That's Zimmerman's story and the police have his injuries when they got there, as well as a 911 tape of him yelling for help, to support that. On the other side? Nothing.

However, that isn't really a response to my post about why a person who claims to carry a gun would say that Zimmerman should not be believed "because he was the shooter." If you or Brucev ever shoots somebody, I'm betting it won't be because they attacked you in a crowd of your friend - more likely there will either be no witnesses or only witnesses on the side of the criminal. With what Brucev dsaid, nearly every self-defense shooter should go to jail.

Cavalry Doc

03-28-2012, 06:22

How many of those African American males were detained at the scene of those shootings and not arrested or charged even weeks later?

Seems to be a rather large blind spot required to sustain that fantasy you guys have got going there.

Randy

Steve,

Go ahead and enlighten us then. It seems like both sides of this (team Trayvon and team Zimmerman) are filling in a lot of holes in the story with their own imagination and their bias is showing quite strongly.

The truth will come out eventually at some point in time. There may or may not have been a good guy in this incident. I'm not ready to condemn anyone other than possibly the black panther bounty hunters and race baiters that are obviously making the situation worse at the moment.

steveksux

03-28-2012, 06:27

We must have seen different evidence3, since what I've seen says, 100%, that zimmerman was getting his head beat against the sidewalk right before he shot. That's Zimmerman's story and the police have his injuries when they got there, as well as a 911 tape of him yelling for help, to support that. On the other side? Nothing.That's all true, I don't disagree with that. That's not the only issue though. If you're the one that starts the fight, you don't get to shoot your way out of it because you're losing without facing charges. That's the fly in the ointment I was intending to refer to... That's the part that isn't clear from the evidence available.
Who was the aggressor at the time the shot was fired? Its even possible that Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin defended himself, and then Martin got on top of him and started pummeling him, and could have gone beyond self defense and become the aggressor, making Zimmerman legally able to shoot him in self defense. I'm not sure we'll ever get enough details to be sure either way. In which case, Zimmerman should walk, we don't jail people when we aren't sure, in theory anyway.
However, that isn't really a response to my post about why a person who claims to carry a gun would say that Zimmerman should not be believed "because he was the shooter." If you or Brucev ever shoots somebody, I'm betting it won't be because they attacked you in a crowd of your friend - more likely there will either be no witnesses or only witnesses on the side of the criminal. With what Brucev dsaid, nearly every self-defense shooter should go to jail.That's not what I took from his statement. I agree the shooter should not be believed in a self defense shooting, not taken at face value. He's facing serious jail time should it be an illegal shoot, he's got TONS of motivation to lie. Police should be VERY skeptical of that story, unless and until it's compared to the physical evidence and matches. The shooter was just in a very stressful and fast moving situation, going on impressions made in split seconds. He's very likely to also be mistaken about many details. How many people have been shot reaching for cell phones, wallets, when people are expecting to see them pull a gun? How many UC cops get shot by mistake by uniforms?

So given the likelihood of shading the story to his advantage, outright lying, or simply being wrong, telling what he thought was happening instead of what actually happened, I think the shooters story should as a matter of course be taken with a LARGE grain of salt. Absolutely would not expect the police to take the position at the scene of a shooting that its all ok until proven otherwise if the shooter claims self defense. (Although in a self defense shooting in FL, it sounds like that is the legal framework the stand your ground law has created). I think that law was designed to protect victims of crime who shoot in self defense. I don't think they anticipated a case of mistaken identity that escalates out of control such as this when they crafted the law.

But its highly dependent on the circumstances of the case. I expect to get a lot more benefit of the doubt if I shoot an armed masked robber at an ATM, an armed masked robber in a convenience store. Sometimes its obvious who's the good guy, who's the bad guy.

But if I shoot an unarmed kid that turns out to be returning from the store with skittles, no mask, no indication of robbery, I expect any explanation I give for why I felt the need to shoot him to face very heavy scrutiny.

Every situation is very different and highly dependent on circumstances. Blanket statements that he should always be arrested, or always believed, are doomed to be wrong.

I think the likeliest scenario is this was a case of mistaken identity on both sides, they escalated to a case of mutual combat and Zimmerman ended up having to shoot Martin to avoid a serious butt whipping, and very possibly had a reasonable fear of great bodily harm getting his head slammed into the pavement. Had he been attacked by Martin unprovoked in nearly any state of the union, that would be a good shoot. In a case of mutual combat though, I'm thinking that would not be a case of justifiable homicide most anywhere. Possibly in FL with their expansive self defense statutes, it may actually be legal even in that case. But there's not enough evidence of the interactions leading up to the shooting to make any sort of determination with any confidence as to what the charges should be, or if any are warranted at all.

Randy

Cavalry Doc

03-28-2012, 06:29

The homicide rates really are not relevant to the current situation. The more information that is released and the longer GZ goes without being charged is more significant.

Given the current environment, if they had a serious charge to lay against GZ they would have placed it. That does not mean that there will not be some bs state or, God forbid, fed charge pressed to placate the masses. That's very possible and very unfortunate.

As more information is released it becomes more clear that TM had a history that fits into GZ's explanation to the police at the time of the shooting. GZ could not have known this info prior to the incident.

We argue here if this was a good shoot. It does not seem to be. It does appear to be a legal shoot. Both parties could have responded in a different manner and avoided it. that's past now. At this time we have knee jerk reactions from both sides that cloud the issue. With the evidence available to us, at this time, it strongly appears that this shooting was legit self defense.

The only thing missing in order to know whether it was a justified shooting or not is all of the details of what happened in between the moment that both people became aware of each other, and the moment the trigger was pulled.

Without that information, any conclusion is profoundly premature.

steveksux

03-28-2012, 06:38

Steve,

Go ahead and enlighten us then. It seems like both sides of this (team Trayvon and team Zimmerman) are filling in a lot of holes in the story with their own imagination and their bias is showing quite strongly. I'm just pointing out where you're doing the same. Feel free to show us any similar cases where the races were reversed where there was no media story. Anytime someone shoots unarmed kid not involved in any sort of robbery attempt and the shooter walks gets news coverage because its highly unusual.

The truth will come out eventually at some point in time. Doubtful, there's not a lot of people besides Zimmerman who saw the entire incident, and Zimmerman has a huge vested interest in being portrayed as the good guy just defending himself.

There may or may not have been a good guy in this incident. I'm not ready to condemn anyone other than possibly the black panther bounty hunters and race baiters that are obviously making the situation worse at the moment.No argument with this part at all.

Randy

steveksux

03-28-2012, 06:40

The only thing missing in order to know whether it was a justified shooting or not is all of the details of what happened in between the moment that both people became aware of each other, and the moment the trigger was pulled.

Without that information, any conclusion is profoundly premature.Well said. This is the crux of the issue. My only disagreement with your earlier statement about the truth will come out is that I don't believe we'll ever have reliable information as to what really happened between them meeting, fighting, and eventually shooting.

Randy

Goaltender66

03-28-2012, 07:15

I'm just pointing out where you're doing the same. Feel free to show us any similar cases where the races were reversed where there was no media story. Anytime someone shoots unarmed kid not involved in any sort of robbery attempt and the shooter walks gets news coverage because its highly unusual.

Doesn't this request boil down to: Show me a story where the media didn't report on the story?

How would CavDoc know there was a case the media didn't cover unless he was involved in it somehow?

RC-RAMIE

03-28-2012, 08:37

That's all true, I don't disagree with that. That's not the only issue though. If you're the one that starts the fight, you don't get to shoot your way out of it because you're losing without facing charges. That's the fly in the ointment I was intending to refer to... That's the part that isn't clear from the evidence available.
Who was the aggressor at the time the shot was fired? Its even possible that Zimmerman was the aggressor, Martin defended himself, and then Martin got on top of him and started pummeling him, and could have gone beyond self defense and become the aggressor, making Zimmerman legally able to shoot him in self defense.

This is my only interest in the case I really have not followed the case much, my question is IF Zimmerman was the aggressor and Martin defended himself while on top as long as Zimmerman has the gun and access to it does he not still present a threat to Martin can Martin go beyond self defense? Does he not have the same right to use deadly force even it is by hand instead of gun?

whoflungdo

03-28-2012, 08:54

This is my only interest in the case I really have not followed the case much, my question is IF Zimmerman was the aggressor and Martin defended himself while on top as long as Zimmerman has the gun and access to it does he not still present a threat to Martin can Martin go beyond self defense? Does he not have the same right to use deadly force even it is by hand instead of gun?

From my understanding this is not the case and your question probably will never be addressed or answered in this case. From all indications, Zimmerman was not the aggressor. From what I've read, seen, and heard, TM blindsided him and was beating his head into the ground. He cannot claim self-defense, or it be claimed for him without evidence of Zimmerman doing something illegal or being the aggressor.

RC-RAMIE

03-28-2012, 09:23

From my understanding this is not the case and your question probably will never be addressed or answered in this case. From all indications, Zimmerman was not the aggressor. From what I've read, seen, and heard, TM blindsided him and was beating his head into the ground. He cannot claim self-defense, or it be claimed for him without evidence of Zimmerman doing something illegal or being the aggressor.

"my question is IF Zimmerman was the aggressor and Martin defended himself"

that would be why I said IF Zimmerman was the aggressor.

whoflungdo

03-28-2012, 09:25

"my question is IF Zimmerman was the aggressor and Martin defended himself"

that would be why I said IF Zimmerman was the aggressor.

I understood and understand that. It doesn't fit in with the facts of this case and will be very unlikely to be answered in this case.

RC-RAMIE

03-28-2012, 09:29

I understood and understand that. It doesn't fit in with the facts of this case and will be very unlikely to be answered in this case.

Im not asking about the facts of this case, I was asking about the statement of Martin going to far in using self-defense, by beating his head in the sidewalk.

whoflungdo

03-28-2012, 09:35

Im not asking about the facts of this case, I was asking about the statement of Martin going to far in using self-defense, by beating his head in the sidewalk.

I am going to try one more time. I know what you are asking. My point is it is very unlikely to be answered definitively anywhere associated with this case in these threads.

Ruggles

03-28-2012, 09:39

"team Trayvon and team Zimmerman"

I wonder if they will get their own Taco Bell souvenir cups like the Twilight movies "teams" :)

Cavalry Doc

03-28-2012, 10:31

Well said. This is the crux of the issue. My only disagreement with your earlier statement about the truth will come out is that I don't believe we'll ever have reliable information as to what really happened between them meeting, fighting, and eventually shooting.

Randy

Reports are that there were witnesses. We will just have to wait and see what is believable after more details come to light.

Cavalry Doc

03-28-2012, 10:36

Doesn't this request boil down to: Show me a story where the media didn't report on the story?

How would CavDoc know there was a case the media didn't cover unless he was involved in it somehow?

Yup. Not sure how I could be more fair. It is what it is, that much is for sure. But I'm admitting I don't have all the facts, and have therefore reserved judgement.

Race is not the only factor. There are sure to have been more factors to the issue than "oh, you look white, head on home and have a nice evening."

RC-RAMIE

03-28-2012, 11:05

I am going to try one more time. I know what you are asking. My point is it is very unlikely to be answered definitively anywhere associated with this case in these threads.

No it is not hard to answer can Martin go to far in defending himself if Zimmeran is the aggressor as long as he has a gun in his possession. Make it a little more simple for you if you are fighting with somebody else you are unarmed and the other guy has a gun if you are on top of him beating him when is to far?

whoflungdo

03-28-2012, 11:18

No it is not hard to answer can Martin go to far in defending himself if Zimmeran is the aggressor as long as he has a gun in his possession. Make it a little more simple for you if you are fighting with somebody else you are unarmed and the other guy has a gun if you are on top of him beating him when is to far?

Good luck. Let me know if you get your answer. I'm not following in all of the threads, but I am in most of them.

RC-RAMIE

03-28-2012, 11:35

Good luck. Let me know if you get your answer. I'm not following in all of the threads, but I am in most of them.

It is just a hypothetical im just looking for peoples opinion on it.

series1811

03-28-2012, 12:18

From my understanding this is not the case and your question probably will never be addressed or answered in this case. From all indications, Zimmerman was not the aggressor. From what I've read, seen, and heard, TM blindsided him and was beating his head into the ground. He cannot claim self-defense, or it be claimed for him without evidence of Zimmerman doing something illegal or being the aggressor.

Well, actually he can't claim anything. He's dead.

Maybe, if he were still alive, he might say, "Dude had a gun and pointed it at me and I started beating on him, and then what I feared would happen, did. He shot me.

Or, he might say, "I always wanted to whip a gun toting white boy's ass and this looked like my chance, but he shot me."

We will only get to hear one version of what happened, and I guess there is a lesson in that.

whoflungdo

03-28-2012, 12:34

Well, actually he can't claim anything. He's dead.

Maybe, if he were still alive, he might say, "Dude had a gun and pointed it at me and I started beating on him, and then what I feared would happen, did. He shot me.

Or, he might say, "I always wanted to whip a gun toting white boy's ass and this looked like my chance, but he shot me."

We will only get to hear one version of what happened, and I guess there is a lesson in that.

True and I should of removed that when I said or it be claimed for him...

Cavalry Doc

03-28-2012, 13:01

No it is not hard to answer can Martin go to far in defending himself if Zimmeran is the aggressor as long as he has a gun in his possession. Make it a little more simple for you if you are fighting with somebody else you are unarmed and the other guy has a gun if you are on top of him beating him when is to far?

That's easy. It depends.

The totality of the circumstance would have to be known in order to know, and that's just what's needed to be reasonably sure.

Bren

03-28-2012, 13:18

That's all true, I don't disagree with that. That's not the only issue though. If you're the one that starts the fight, you don't get to shoot your way out of it because you're losing without facing charges. That's the fly in the ointment I was intending to refer to...
******
Randy

The problem with your entire post is that you started with an incorrect legal conclusion.

If you "start the fight" by following or talking to somebody and they attack you, you definitely do get to use deadly force with justification (assuming a deadly force attack, like slamming your head into a sidewalk and trying to take your gun).

In most states, even if you start the fight by attacking somebody with less than deadly force, you can get the right to defend yourself with deadly force, justifiably, if they respond with deadly force (although I'd guess you could still be charged with the initial assault).

In this case, no witness has ever claimed that Zimmerman did anything that would remove his right to justifiably use deadly force in self defense, although a lot of GTers and others seem to be making the claim without supporting law.

steveksux

03-28-2012, 20:06

Doesn't this request boil down to: Show me a story where the media didn't report on the story?

How would CavDoc know there was a case the media didn't cover unless he was involved in it somehow?That's what it would take to support his claim. Perhaps he shouldn't make claims he can't support. Ditto for those he can't possibly support. Not my fault if its nearly impossible to do so.

The idea that the only reason this is getting press is because its white on black shooting is ridiculous. The furor is a direct result of the shooter not being arrested or charged even though he was on scene when the cops got there. Comparing it to black on black crime is a non starter. Find a case where the cops let a black guy walk for shooting an unarmed black kid )or better yet, a white one) and see how that plays in the media, its the only way to know.

There's plenty of outrage over kids getting shot in crossfires and raids, seems like its been an epidemic in Detroit lately, and there's no shortage of coverage. It's carefully hidden away from public view.... in newpapers....

Not saying charges are or aren't warranted, that's a whole different issue, and depends on knowledge of the law that's way beyond both the general public and apparently the media, as they can't seem to focus on the relevant issues, and are dead set on portraying it as racist system looking the other way when white guy guns down innocent unarmed black kid for no reason. Which is maybe the least likely scenario.

Randy

steveksux

03-28-2012, 20:18

Reports are that there were witnesses. We will just have to wait and see what is believable after more details come to light.I'm assuming the witnesses heard a commotion, took some time to check it out, so likely only caught the tail end of the confrontation. Not sure that's going to be the whole picture.

It'd be great if someone happened to be looking out the window when the whole thing went down. That would be much more compelling to me than Zimmerman's version, witness that only caught the tail end of the confrontation.

Randy

steveksux

03-28-2012, 20:24

The problem with your entire post is that you started with an incorrect legal conclusion.

If you "start the fight" by following or talking to somebody and they attack you, you definitely do get to use deadly force with justification (assuming a deadly force attack, like slamming your head into a sidewalk and trying to take your gun).That's very true. Verbal confrontation generally doesn't justify physical confrontation. That's not what I'm proposing. I'm saying if Zimmerman went to play cop and try to detain Martin, put his hands on him first and a fight broke out, its mutual combat that went south.

In most states, even if you start the fight by attacking somebody with less than deadly force, you can get the right to defend yourself with deadly force, justifiably, if they respond with deadly force (although I'd guess you could still be charged with the initial assault).Zimmerman has at least 50 pounds on Martin, he'd probably have a good case had HE shot Zimmerman immediately after Zimmerman starting a fight with him due to disparity of force (assuming it was Zimmerman throwing the first punch, at least until Martin kicked his ass, anyway). So can an adult 50 pounds heavier than a teenager start a fight with less than deadly force? Maybe. At 100 pounds heavier, probably not.

In this case, no witness has ever claimed that Zimmerman did anything that would remove his right to justifiably use deadly force in self defense, although a lot of GTers and others seem to be making the claim without supporting law.That's not surprising when you only get one side of the story.

Would be nice if we had a recording of Martin's convo with his girlfriend, would go a long way to corroborating Zimmerman's story that Martin attacked Zimmerman. I'm not going to be impressed with the girlfriend's story. I'd be just as skeptical of Zimmerman's story as Martin's girlfriend, both are far from unbiased witnesses, with axes to grind.

Randy

ChuteTheMall

03-28-2012, 20:31

It'd be great if someone happened to be looking out the window when the whole thing went down.

Depends on who that "someone" is.

Some people might not be eager to go to battle against Obama, Eric Holder, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the Black Panthers, the mainstream media, the Democratic Party, tens of thousands of hoodie-wearing protestors and gangstas, and the most vile lawyers they can hire.

Snitches get stitches.

I like to think I'd step forward, however.
Nobody really knows until it happens.

steveksux

03-28-2012, 20:42

Depends on who that "someone" is.

Some people might not be eager to go to battle against Obama, Eric Holder, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the Black Panthers, the mainstream media, the Democratic Party, tens of thousands of hoodie-wearing protestors and gangstas, and the most vile lawyers they can hire.

Snitches get stitches.

I like to think I'd step forward, however.
Nobody really knows until it happens.
Good point. And with Zimmerman not being charged at this point, there's no reason to step forward and risk yourself if what you saw supports Zimmerman. He's doing fine on his own.

If he ends up facing charges, and that calms things down a bit, that might entice them to step forward since their statements are now needed to keep an innocent man out of jail. Now there's an incentive to put your self at risk, and there's less risk also.

Cavalry Doc

03-29-2012, 05:58

I'm assuming the witnesses heard a commotion, took some time to check it out, so likely only caught the tail end of the confrontation. Not sure that's going to be the whole picture.

It'd be great if someone happened to be looking out the window when the whole thing went down. That would be much more compelling to me than Zimmerman's version, witness that only caught the tail end of the confrontation.

Randy

See, that's the difference, I'll wait to see what is known, and once all the details are out, I'll know better then if I personally think it was justified or not.

Wait for it, then criticize if there are problems. You seem to have been leaning one way before the incident is fully understood.

Cavalry Doc

03-29-2012, 06:03

Good point. And with Zimmerman not being charged at this point, there's no reason to step forward and risk yourself if what you saw supports Zimmerman. He's doing fine on his own.

If he ends up facing charges, and that calms things down a bit, that might entice them to step forward since their statements are now needed to keep an innocent man out of jail. Now there's an incentive to put your self at risk, and there's less risk also.

It's never too hard to do the right thing, unless you are steered by fear. I'd speak up, because it would be the right thing to do.

There are still a lot of details missing, and it may take a while to have a good understanding of who saw what, and from what perspective they saw it. There is no need to imagine anything though.

Ruble Noon

03-29-2012, 16:57

The media keeps saying that Zimmerman is a white hispanic. Does that mean that obama is a white black?

snerd

03-29-2012, 17:08

Was the designation invented by the media for this case, or is it an actual term?

m51

03-29-2012, 17:27

I heard tonight Zimmerman used a 9mm in the shooting, for the love of God, if it happens to be a Glock 19 like the idiot used in Tucson, the media will go bat shxx crazy.

expatman

03-29-2012, 17:28

It was a Kel-tec.

rgregoryb

03-29-2012, 17:30

I heard tonight Zimmerman used a 9mm in the shooting, for the love of God, if it happens to be a Glock 19 like the idiot used in Tucson, the media will go bat shxx crazy.

at one time it was reported to be a Kel Tec

sbhaven

03-29-2012, 19:38

I heard tonight Zimmerman used a 9mm in the shooting, for the love of God, if it happens to be a Glock 19 like the idiot used in Tucson, the media will go bat shxx crazy.
Heard from who? Link? Per the actual Sanford partial police report (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf) the firearm was a Kel Tec 9mm PF9 and per the report it was placed into "evidence under TS-1".

rgregoryb

03-29-2012, 19:42

Heard from who? Link? Per the actual Sanford partial police report (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf) the firearm was a Kel Tec 9mm PF9 and per the report it was placed into "evidence under TS-1".

kind of surprised the KelTec worked

rgregoryb

03-29-2012, 19:44

and an interesting sideline

Ninety-three percent of all black homicide casualties from 1980 to 2008 were killed by other blacks.

Where's that outrage?

steveksux

03-29-2012, 20:51

kind of surprised the KelTec workedThat's the real reason behind the media firestorm in this case... :rofl: Man bites dog!

Randy

steveksux

03-29-2012, 20:54

See, that's the difference, I'll wait to see what is known, and once all the details are out, I'll know better then if I personally think it was justified or not.

Wait for it, then criticize if there are problems. You seem to have been leaning one way before the incident is fully understood.If that's what you think, you seem unable to comprehend English.

Randy

Big Mad Dawg

03-30-2012, 00:09

and an interesting sideline

Ninety-three percent of all black homicide casualties from 1980 to 2008 were killed by other blacks.

Where's that outrage?

This will even be ignored by the people here that donít want to examine why people are suspicious of hoodie gangster wannabes. The data doesnít lie more black on black violence is a fact if the lefty loonies really cared they would be looking at the root cause and not ignoring it. The sad truth is if you keep telling your kids they are too stupid to compete with other ethnic groups then they believe it and look for an option just the way it is. This has been the problem for well over a century and we all know the government and bleeding hearts solution welfare and affirmative action both failed miserably.

Bren

03-30-2012, 04:34

The idea that the only reason this is getting press is because its white on black shooting is ridiculous. The furor is a direct result of the shooter not being arrested or charged even though he was on scene when the cops got there.

That seems to be proven wrong by the very common situation of self-defense shooters not being arrested or charged. If that was the issue, we'd have this media uproar at least every other day, if not every day.

Bren

03-30-2012, 04:48

That's very true. Verbal confrontation generally doesn't justify physical confrontation. That's not what I'm proposing. I'm saying if Zimmerman went to play cop and try to detain Martin, put his hands on him first and a fight broke out, its mutual combat that went south.

You may as well speculate on - "if Zimmerman stuck a gun in his mouth and said, I'm going to kill you for being black." Neither one is even suggested by any evidence that has been reported.

Zimmerman has at least 50 pounds on Martin, he'd probably have a good case had HE shot Zimmerman immediately after Zimmerman starting a fight with him due to disparity of force (assuming it was Zimmerman throwing the first punch, at least until Martin kicked his ass, anyway). So can an adult 50 pounds heavier than a teenager start a fight with less than deadly force? Maybe. At 100 pounds heavier, probably not.

So have you been ignoring the numerous reports that the media has been using an old picture of Trayvon to make him look younger and smaller? Seems like a read that he was 6' tall covered with tattoos and gold teeth in front at the time of the shooting, but they never show that. You also seem to ignore that it was an old picture of Zimmerman, who appears to have lost about 60-70 lbs since then. You start thinking Trayvon was a little 14-year-old, because they keep showing you pictures from when he was a little 14-year-old, instead of a big 19-year-old.

The police reports (http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/.a/6a00d83451b4ba69e2016303574e44970d-pi) say Trayvon was 3 inches taller than Zimmerman and while they left off Zimmerman's weight - his recent pictures and height of 5'9" tell me if he outweighs Trayvon at all, it isn't by much.

That's not surprising when you only get one side of the story.

Would be nice if we had a recording of Martin's convo with his girlfriend, would go a long way to corroborating Zimmerman's story that Martin attacked Zimmerman. I'm not going to be impressed with the girlfriend's story. I'd be just as skeptical of Zimmerman's story as Martin's girlfriend, both are far from unbiased witnesses, with axes to grind.

Randy

The "one side" we are getting is mostly people making up facts to try to support Trayvon, with no basis in reality. You are an example. Of the witnesses and physical evidence supporting Zimmerman's side, there seems to be no dispute at all.

series1811

03-30-2012, 05:49

The problem with your entire post is that you started with an incorrect legal conclusion.

If you "start the fight" by following or talking to somebody and they attack you, you definitely do get to use deadly force with justification (assuming a deadly force attack, like slamming your head into a sidewalk and trying to take your gun).

But, not if you display a gun. If your actions could justifiably result in your getting shot, they can justifiably result in your getting your ass beat.

In most states, even if you start the fight by attacking somebody with less than deadly force, you can get the right to defend yourself with deadly force, justifiably, if they respond with deadly force (although I'd guess you could still be charged with the initial assault).

No that's called mutual combat in a lot of state and it changes the rules of what is a justifiable self defense

In this case, no witness has ever claimed that Zimmerman did anything that would remove his right to justifiably use deadly force in self defense, although a lot of GTers and others seem to be making the claim without supporting law.

There is a lot of claims being made on both sides that seem to basically be coming out of thin air.

There were eyewitnesses to the actual altercation between Zimmerman and Martin? I didn't know that. I guess what they saw happen when Martin got shot will be despositive.

Now, we can wait and see what their statements say.

Fred Hansen

03-30-2012, 06:07

That's very true. Verbal confrontation generally doesn't justify physical confrontation. That's not what I'm proposing. I'm saying if Zimmerman went to play cop and try to detain Martin, put his hands on him first and a fight broke out, its mutual combat that went south.

Zimmerman has at least 50 pounds on Martin, he'd probably have a good case had HE shot Zimmerman immediately after Zimmerman starting a fight with him due to disparity of force (assuming it was Zimmerman throwing the first punch, at least until Martin kicked his ass, anyway). So can an adult 50 pounds heavier than a teenager start a fight with less than deadly force? Maybe. At 100 pounds heavier, probably not.

That's not surprising when you only get one side of the story.

Would be nice if we had a recording of Martin's convo with his girlfriend, would go a long way to corroborating Zimmerman's story that Martin attacked Zimmerman. I'm not going to be impressed with the girlfriend's story. I'd be just as skeptical of Zimmerman's story as Martin's girlfriend, both are far from unbiased witnesses, with axes to grind.

I'm assuming the witnesses heard a commotion, took some time to check it out, so likely only caught the tail end of the confrontation. Not sure that's going to be the whole picture.

It'd be great if someone happened to be looking out the window when the whole thing went down. That would be much more compelling to me than Zimmerman's version, witness that only caught the tail end of the confrontation.

Randy

See, that's the difference, I'll wait to see what is known, and once all the details are out, I'll know better then if I personally think it was justified or not.

Wait for it, then criticize if there are problems. You seem to have been leaning one way before the incident is fully understood.

If that's what you think, you seem unable to comprehend English.

Randy

Yer funny. In a sad kind of way. I know what it means when I say "I'm assuming", so what does it mean when YOU say it?? :dunno:

Your charge looks a lot like projection to me and probably everyone else also. You are making assumptions and filling in the missing details with your own imagination to make the situation fit whatever bias and agenda you are trying to push.

Fred Hansen

03-30-2012, 06:17

and an interesting sideline

Ninety-three percent of all black homicide casualties from 1980 to 2008 were killed by other blacks.

Where's that outrage?No money in it.

Gary W Trott

03-30-2012, 07:49

Bottom line guys, there are no saints in this story, and some very crucial details missing. There really is no way to tell who's the good guy here yet, if there is one.
You're on the money with that Doc. Without knowing what led up to the actual physical confrontation it's impossible to determine if either of them were totally innocent of causing it.

Fred Hansen

03-30-2012, 08:08

There were eyewitnesses to the actual altercation between Zimmerman and Martin? I didn't know that. I guess what they saw happen when Martin got shot will be despositive.

Now, we can wait and see what their statements say.From what I understand, it was the statement of the witness who saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman that led to Zimmerman not being charged in the first place.

Cavalry Doc

03-30-2012, 09:00

You're on the money with that Doc. Without knowing what led up to the actual physical confrontation it's impossible to determine if either of them were totally innocent of causing it.

Yup. But some people have let their imagination get the best of them on this one. "Steve" above is just one example.