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Saying bye bye to karate

I don't know if this is just my experience, but as someone who has been involved in the martial arts since childhood and is now approaching their mid-twenties, I have found it nearly impossible to find actually good, practical karate schools, anywhere. My original club was great as an introduction to martial arts in a hard, 70s kickboxing-karate kind of a way, but in any case, having lived in two of Europe's biggest cities, and my studies having taken me quite literally all over the world, I am still perplexed by the undeniable absolute dominance of clubs that do nothing but so-called "sport karate", but which are nonetheless convinced that they are some kind of bastion of "tradition", that what they are doing is in some way an effective martial art, and are completely inflexible and unreasonable when challenged in any way.

Evidently, practical karate is on the rise thanks to the absolutely brilliant work of people like Iain here, but until it is the norm and the WKF and friends have been ousted for WCA type organisations, or at least until it is possible to find actually good clubs with systematic ease, I have now decided there is just no point being actively involved with karate (beyond going to Iain and co.'s seminars etc. when possible, and of course working solo kata and imagined applications etc.) - it just isn't efficient having to constantly and consistently scour the world for training partners in the place of having a club of some description where I can be learning. I figure that my time at this stage is much better spent just (at least temporarily) leaving karate to one side and rather absolutely committing to something else (be it judo, bjj, tai chi or whatever), instead of spending half of my available training time trying to facilitate the possibility to train and hunting out mma-style bouts for self-testing.

Beyond just my personal mini-rant there (sorry), I have been thinking in any case: I am willing to venture that what I have found is not just my experience but also rather the case for the vast majority of practically-minded karate-ka out there that aren't fortunate enough to have been brought up through a practical club. We can pussy-foot around being respectful etc. when talking about solely-sporting groups, and sure if people enjoy tag-"sparring" so be it, but that doesn't change the fact that nobody has ever started karate to learn how to get their arse handed to them in self defence or fighting/combat sports, and that as such said sport karate really doesn't operate in good faith or add anything positive to the total sum of good karate as it were. As such, and though it pains me to say it, part of me thinks that the best advice that could possibly be given to sport karate-ka that have had the practical revelation (and especially those lower down the food chain), is to just steer clear away from karate, to stop it outright (unless of course they have an Iain-style club available), and just to move on to whatever good, practical club is around and available, regardless of style.

having lived in two of Europe's biggest cities, and my studies having taken me quite literally all over the world, I am still perplexed by the undeniable absolute dominance of clubs that do nothing but so-called "sport karate", but which are nonetheless convinced that they are some kind of bastion of "tradition", that what they are doing is in some way an effective martial art, and are completely inflexible and unreasonable when challenged in any way.

While there is no doubt 3K karate is still dominant (in terms of numbers of practitioners) that’s changing rapidly from my perspective. I may have a biased perspective because I spend almost all my martial time within the practical karate community, but I can say with certainty that it is a huge and ever growing global group. I therefore feel “absolute dominance” is an over statement.

You don’t mention which cities you are referring to, but I certainly know of plenty of practical groups in London (2nd largest European city) and Berlin (4th largest European city). Can’t speak to Moscow (biggest) or St. Petersburg (3rd biggest).

The problem is that we practical karate types do need to be more “extraverted”. There is a tendency to see advertising and promotion as being the sole reserve of the “McDojo”, and the result is no one can find us, and the less pragmatically minded schools are the only ones people can find. It can see that has been your experience. The practical karate community needs to up its game in this regard.

genkaimade wrote:

I figure that my time at this stage is much better spent just (at least temporarily) leaving karate to one side and rather absolutely committing to something else (be it judo, bjj, tai chi or whatever), instead of spending half of my available training time trying to facilitate the possibility to train and hunting out mma-style bouts for self-testing.

I think that makes sense. It’s always important that training goals are being met, and it’s clear the kind of karate you have ready access to is not meeting those goals. I’ve always been of the view that I’m a martial artist first, and a karateka second. Karate is the training methodology that best meets my martial needs (for me). And it’s important that everyone can say the same about how they are training.

I notice you said you were in your mid-20s. One thought that has been running around my head a lot recently are the differences between “protecting ourselves” and “proving ourselves”. I have a podcast semi-written on this, but my thoughts are not fully formed yet. I feel there is a “time of life” for each of these elements and that younger males (I was one once) tend to focus on the need to “prove themselves”; where as those who are older tend to think more about protecting what they have. Basically, younger males are setting out on life’s adventure and therefore, quite rightly, have a desire to push the boundaries, test their mettle, and find out who they are. Older males tend to shift toward protecting what they now have i.e. the security, family, status, the health and wellbeing etc that they have acquired though their efforts. Again this is right and how it should be.

“I also travelled around to different dojos interviewing people for the book. But what I’ve found, especially in MMA gyms, is that the realm is dominated by young men. You’re talking about men who are 15 to 24 years old. In my gym there was almost no demographic diversity. There were very few women and graybeards. More or less everyone was a young man.

“And if you ask these guys, “What are you doing here? This is kind of a weird thing to do, getting punched in the face all the time. Why do you do this?” one thing you don’t hear is “I want to know what to do in a self-defense situation. What if I’m walking down the street and a mugger comes along? How can I defend myself?” They’re not worried about that.

“What these young men are worried about is winning a duel. They’re just like me. They’ve been in situations where they got bullied, and if that ever comes up again, they want to be in a position to stand up for themselves. They want to avoid humiliation and dishonor. They’re preparing for duels. So, generally speaking, I think they’re less likely to back down from a fight.

“But part of the reason you prepare for duels is because then everyone knows you’re preparing for duels. So in their social network, these men are advertising themselves as the sort of men who are not going to take any shit because they’re dangerous. They are establishing a reputational deterrent against disrespect as well as aggression.”

I think that’s insightful and it matches my experience and observations.

The point is that I don’t think true traditional karate (with its self-protection focus) meets the needs of many younger males because it does not have the same degree of public testing that MMA provides.

Dojo live drills and scenario training simply don’t provide the same “glory” as MMA matches. We appeal to the “greybeards” much more effectively though because they have less to prove and more to protect.

It’s an observation that I think the karate world would do well to consider more. On a personal note, I feel embracing Kudo as karate’s dominant sporting expression would help take karate closer to being the complete package. See this post from four years ago:

Anyhow, that may not be relevant to your personal choices, but I took the opportunity to float the general idea :-)

genkaimade wrote:

just steer clear away from karate, to stop it outright (unless of course they have an Iain-style club available), and just to move on to whatever good, practical club is around and available, regardless of style.

I’d disagree with that, and instead simply state that people should always find a club, irrespective of style, that meets their training needs. Karate may well provide what people are after; so I’d not say people should “steer clear away from karate”, because in my case it has been, and remains, a perfect fit. And there’s lots of people who find exactly the same. So it’s an option to consider, along with all other options.

There’s no automatic guarantee that any other type of martial practise will be a better fit. A poor quality club is a poor quality club; irrespective of style. A sport / fighting focused club won’t give you want you need for self-protection (law, escape, de-escalation, weapons, multiple enemies, etc. won’t be covered); irrespective of style. People need to clearly define their training goals, and then seek out the place(s) that best meets those training goals; irrespective of style.

In your case, I think you are making the smart choice for you, because karate – as you can find it – is not meeting your current training goals.

Hi Iain, thanks for the response, as usual I agree with practically (pun intended) all that you have said. Just to be absolutely clear though, beyond just youthfull pugilism, the only reason I have decided to make this (what I hope will be a temporary) shift, is a lack of practical karate clubs in the majority of palces I seem to go. Also on the kudo point specifically, I very much agree, it is a change that can't come fast enough as far as I am concerned, competition tends to accelerate growth of things and I cannot wait for practical karate (not to entirely equate the two of course, but the link is much more tenuous than with point sparring) to claim its rightful place in the world.

On the 'steer clear away from karate' point I was probably being a smidgen melodramatic sorry. What I really meant is that it remains so difficult to find practical clubs in most places, that given the likelihood that kkk is all most are likely to find, time is probably best spent elsewhere for the vast majority of people unless they are lucky enough to find a practical place.
Ultimately though I think across good clubs/practical arts we are in reality all doing the same or very similar things just in slightly different ways (combative&self defence principles never change right?), and hope that with ongoing kata etc. (and getting to your seminars etc. whenever I can) on my part my karate as such will only benefit. As you say, 'I’ve always been of the view that I’m a martial artist first, and a karateka second' - I wholeheartedly agree. I just hope that I can keep learning, albeit through a non-karate club, until I find myself somewhere where I can find a karate club of value.

Ultimately though I think across good clubs/practical arts we are in reality all doing the same or very similar things just in slightly different ways (combative& self defence principles never change right?)

Absolutely! As Gavin Mulholland once remarked on this forum, “Our styles are not what we do. But how we train what we do”.

Your plan sounds like a good one to me. Cross training is always good idea; even when it is an “imposed practicality” as opposed to active choice. Seeing how other arts train and manifest common principles can be very beneficial for one’s understating of their core art.

... clubs that do nothing but so-called "sport karate", ... and are completely inflexible and unreasonable when challenged in any way.

From what I've seen of the karate world, if you challenge a sensei about how he runs his dojo and his selection of training materials, his response is going to be to clearly and bluntly shut you down, no doubt about it. That's not just for the sport-karate fans, but for everybody.

On the other hand, the eager adn pleasant-to-have-in-the-dojo student who asks his sensei "but what about the practical applications of the bunkai?" questions on the side and after class is likely to get his sensei thinking about those issues and probably will get answers and information (which will gradually improve in quality over time.) If enough students start expressing interest, he might even start the move to having it as part of the training. Conversely, the sensei may know of a different club across town that would be more suited to his student's interests.

hi i know what you mean, but the problem is when "practial karate" becomes the norm, it may become sedentary, over confident and teaching rubbish. I do not pratice karate for self defence or judo for that matter, sure the stuff may help or not, so that is a bonus. I pratice to keep fit, learn the kata's and techniques. I have always been like this even when i was a young man. I started judo when i was 19 not into competitions, but learning for learning sake. I am 50 now and doing the same, nope not a dan grade in any art nor do i want to be. Just the fun factor is important to me. Your a young man, it is natural you want to do new things, and leave karate alone or any other MA. I say go for it, hopefully you will come back later on. Good luck

From what I've seen of the karate world, if you challenge a sensei about how he runs his dojo and his selection of training materials, his response is going to be to clearly and bluntly shut you down, no doubt about it. That's not just for the sport-karate fans, but for everybody.

On the other hand, the eager adn pleasant-to-have-in-the-dojo student who asks his sensei "but what about the practical applications of the bunkai?" questions on the side and after class is likely to get his sensei thinking about those issues and probably will get answers and information (which will gradually improve in quality over time.) If enough students start expressing interest, he might even start the move to having it as part of the training. Conversely, the sensei may know of a different club across town that would be more suited to his student's interests.

Hi,

Sorry for being a bit late to reply, but I actually tried this, I went to see one of my teachers to speak about Bunkai and practical ideas and it took a while for me to realise that it was never going to happen in class. The teacher spoke about doing it etc but it never came to fruition in class.

I actually offered to run these sessions as well, you know 15-20 mins in a class when he could fit it in, but when students don't really take an interest and think you are talking rubbish, you do get the impression of 'why waste my time'

Needless to say, I dont train with that particular instructor anymore. Nice guy, but not what I want anymore.

I am now teaching a class within the same Association, different club, where i get to do what I want, so long as my students know the syllabus, syllabus is kind of out of date within today's practical Karate but I can concentrate on doing my Bunkai, applied work etc. I train with a Reality Based Group to crosstrain and I have just this week got in touch with a Judo coach in the local area to go over throwing techniques etc.

I too, find that the local Karate is ok ish, but I am having to steer some of my collegues towards my way of thinking, which is happening, just slowly!!

I turned my back on karate many years ago. I thought it was rubbish. I think at the time I'd fallen into a kind of public perception trap. At the time, karate was becoming 'uncool', and people were looking more to either kickboxing for the sport side (this was before the phrase MMA became a thing) or kung fu aligned styles for combat. I found a kung fu club. I loved it for a while but ultimately walked from that too. I regret leaving both. I've since picked up training again. This time tang soo do, which is basically karate. Several years in, I've come to realise the styles I left years ago were actually awesome. As is tang soo do. I think what's changed is that I no longer give a stuff what's popular or what's 'the best'. I don't know if that's even it. I think it might be that I don't look at specific techniques anymore other than as a training tool, but instead look at the principles that the techniques are built from. I think when you think in principles rather than techniques, suddenly the door opens to all sorts of practical improvisations. All of which need to be tested of course with a willing training partner but my point is I think it's all in there, it just depends how you look at it. I wouldn't last 10 seconds in the ring against a competitive fighter from any style. But is that because of shortcomings in my style, or is it simply because I only train for a few hours a week? I think style is irrelevant, it's how you look at it and how much you train that decides whether it's any good or not.