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Also, the gameboards are written by Yasu or Tohya. They do not show the truth of prime.

While the Ushiromiya family might not have the closest bonds of all... they wouldn't agree so easily in helping Yasu when bribed like in Our Confessions. It is a fictional story, so the author may take some liberties. As AuraTwilight said only Nanjo is shown to have been bribed. So, even when being offered money, most of them would hesitate and probably even refuse helping Yasu.

What is the solution to Episode 2's third twilight? Shannon, Gohda, Kuwasama, Genji, and Nanjo are all in the servants room after finding "Kanon".

Nanjo and Kuwasama die. Genji, Godha, and Shannon return to the rest of the people. The fantasy scene shows Kanon being evaporated by a spider web by them before they return and after the two deaths. If this is the work of shkannon then why would Gohda not say anything to the family? Or immediately try to escape or dash out if they (shkannon and presumbly Genji who knows of shkannon) let him live?

Also people use ShKanon to explain Kanon’s disappearance from the games. I’m just saying that there other explanations for how the Kanon can go missing.

The bit about EP8 – this is such a red herring, this red only applies to Bern’s game and not the core question arcs. If this did apply so literally then one could raise an eyebrow at Battler being the culprit.

Ah, but it's not a red herring. That red may or may not apply only to that game, but Lambadelta says that that is what happens to Kanon at any time that Shannon dies. "Well, I thought it'd be rude, so I kept quiet about it, but that's what happens when Shannon dies." = she's also talking about the earlier games, not just Bern's game there. Can you explain why she said that, using your theory?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

The bit about EP7 – this only applies to EP7 again, Shannon going BSoD in one moment does not prove ShKanon for everything. Yes Shannon = Kanon in that kakera but that doesn’t mean anything in the wider context.

Why doesn't it mean anything? I'm disappointed: that's a really inadequate response which seems to me to boil down to "OK, Shkanon is proven beyond a doubt in this one ep, but it doesn't mean anything, because, uh, I say so." Really? I don't think your theory can be correct, but I'm responding to you seriously, so please don't resort to a "because I say so" level of reasoning.

EP7is the game where two kakera (one with Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice, and the other with Lion) are sewn together so that Will can solve all of Beatrice's mysteries. It's the ep which is described on the title screen of the game as the one where "the cold, hard truth will be revealed". It's the one where Yasu is revealed and her backstory is gone into. It absolutely must have relevance to the games as a whole. If it is irrelevant, why is it there?

Ryukishi has said about ep 7 that

Quote:

At the end of EP6, they said "we want to have an answer session", so I think that it will include backstory elements that haven't yet appeared in the story, as well as the inner thoughts of various people, making for something that borders on the level of a confession.

He's also said that

Quote:

EP7 was the heart and soul of all the hints and answers. And EP8 is something like an afterword to round up the story.

It's really not good enough to simply say that EP7 has no relevance to the rest of the story and not give a reason for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

5) And actually their dreams are not contradicting but extremely similar; don’t both just want to be with their love? I don’t think that it’s specified WHERE they would have to be.

It is stated. I'll get back to that in a second. (And I'll get back to the rest of your arguments if I have time and nobody else addresses them.) Firstly...

How can you say that their dreams are not contradicting when Shannon and Kanon themselves describe their dreams as contradicting, as in the quote I gave you earlier?

You really, really need to re-read Ep 6, because Ep 6 makes it extremely clear that if Shannon wins, she will leave the island and Kanon will quit and leave the island "for all eternity", and if Jessica looks for him it will "be in vain". If Kanon wins, then he will stay on the island and work on his relationship with Jessica, but Shannon and George will break up.

Quote:

Beatrice the Elder: "If you give up on the miracle of magic and leave it to Shannon and George,......they will be joined and leave the island......After that, Kanon will leave the island as well. That is an unavoidable fate."

Beatrice the Younger: "Th, ......then what if they can obtain the miracle of magic...?"

Beatrice the Elder: "Of course, Kanon will remain on the island, by Jessica's side for all time.......He will probably start learning music with Jessica as she wished for.......How their relationship will progress afterwards is a matter for the two lovers. They may deepen their relationship slowly all by themselves, as Jessica wanted..."

Shannon: "......However,...if that happens, George-san and I will not be joined."

Kanon: ".........We must fight this fate by betting our futures and our happiness."

Jessica: "A, ......are you kidding me...?! What the hell...?! So if we are joined, the other pair will split apart?! What kind of demon's game is this?!!"

Kanon: "I......want to start a new life with you, Milady......Even if that life.......means crushing Nee-san's happiness......I will not falter..."

This and more is why, basically, your theory of Kanon and Shannon taking on the other's hopes and dreams and whatnot is really in trouble, because over and over again it's hammered in that their dreams are mutually exclusive and only one can come true.

I'm afraid your argument for them taking on the other's dreams is not at all clear, and your evidence appears to be just that they knew what the other one's dreams were, which is not really satisfactory. Can you provide, say, evidence in the form of quotes from the series to support your argument?

And even if it's just a mistake, you can't change the author's interpretation based on a mistake

I posted a much neater interpretation of this, which was unfortunately cut down by Lamba stating in red the number of people in this game was the same as previous games, but plus Erika.

Quote:

See for yourself…when Battler comes in, Shannon and Kanon are right in front of him. Also happens in the anime version check out EP8 – II-III. If the VN shows something different (I can’t remember and I’ve lost my data), then I’ll be fine to budge on this point.

Have a look at that scene again. We see Shannon and Kanon when Battler is a blur in the door, when he comes closer, notice who is never seen again? It was quite clever drawing on the part of the mangaka (or whatever they are called)

@Drifloon
EP2 – 1st Twilight, tbh I have forgotten what it was like in the VN but in the manga and anime Rosa tells Shannon and Genji to go AFTER she has seen the bodies. Check it out:

See for yourself…when Battler comes in, Shannon and Kanon are right in front of him. Also happens in the anime version check out EP8 – II-III. If the VN shows something different (I can’t remember and I’ve lost my data), then I’ll be fine to budge on this point.

Just (re)watched the anime to check this.

Anime: As soon as Rosa sees the corpses, she sends Genji and Shannon to go to Kinzo. They are shown leaving the chapel. Moments later, Maria, Jessica, Battler and George arrive in the chapel.

Manga: Battler never sees Shannon+Kanon together. They appear together before Battler arrives, not after.

EP2 – 1st Twilight, tbh I have forgotten what it was like in the VN but in the manga and anime Rosa tells Shannon and Genji to go AFTER she has seen the bodies. Check it out:

See for yourself…when Battler comes in, Shannon and Kanon are right in front of him. Also happens in the anime version check out EP8 – II-III. If the VN shows something different (I can’t remember and I’ve lost my data), then I’ll be fine to budge on this point.

Yes and no. We see that Shannon and Kanon are both present but, when Battler gets in and can look inside, only Kanon is shown and he tries to stop Jessica. Shannon is nowhere to be seen, which, in itself, can be a hint there's no Shannon in the room and we won't see Shannon again till this pic when she's talking with Kinzo

whom we know is dead.

Then she will be witnessed again by Battler here:

So it's likely the illusion she and Kanon are in front of Battler when Battler entered in the chapel is merely a 'narrative trick' for the readers. It's never confirmed once Battler opened the door he witnessed Shannon and Kanon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

EP3 – 1st Twilight, yes fine I agree there is a loop hole now for Shannon to jump down to chapel (or vice versa, judging by the fact that it is on the 1st floor) BUT…

I think the room is actually at what in my country is called ground floor, though I seem to remember that either in English or in American, landfloor is called first floor.

Quote:

first floor
noun
1.
the ground floor of a building.
2.
the floor above the ground floor of a building.

So there's no need for Shannon to jump.
In fact it was said that she was placed there because in this way she would be the first to be discovered and this means she would be in an easy to reach place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

@GoldenLand
My use for Knox’s 8th is not to disprove Shannon = Kanon but to eradicate any sort of confusion about EP5. There is a contradiction about the solution in EP5 and nothing about Erika’s position or ShKanon’s positions were discussed relative to each other to allow Erika to see one but not the other. From the way it was put it actually seemed like she was looking at everyone, so looking at Kanon and Shannon at the same time.

Actually an human sight is pretty limited so you can't really look at more than 10 people at the same time unless you're far from them and they're close. Otherwise you'll have to move your gaze all around.

However it's stated Erika is behaving properly and I doubt continuously look in each direction can be labelled as normal. She would look paranoid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

Also people use ShKanon to explain Kanon’s disappearance from the games. I’m just saying that there other explanations for how the Kanon can go missing.

Personally I find Kanon's disappearance as a hint and not as a proof... at least till EP 8. When Bern states with Shannon's death Kanon has to disappear no explanation given on the way or how it's pretty hard to think he just disappeared because he hid or was killed and hidden.

His disappearence is clearly implied to have a better purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

The bit about EP7 – this only applies to EP7 again, Shannon going BSoD in one moment does not prove ShKanon for everything. Yes Shannon = Kanon in that kakera but that doesn’t mean anything in the wider context.

If that's the case Ep 7 would be meaningless. The whole EP points as ShKannon as culprit. If it's meaningless the Ep loses its purpose.

I'm not sure what you mean. Partecipate to what? The love duel? But Beato take part to it... as long as she has Battler around. The love duel is a love duel for couples.
As soon as Battler loses himself in a logic error apparently her chances to win the love trial were judged to be 0. Considering Yasu never actively did something to win Battler's love as long as he wasn't on Rokkenjima this is a metaphorical representation of how Yasu 'gave up'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

2) Couldn’t it be that each couple LACKS SOMETHING and thus only one can fulfil their love? Rather than being about if 1 wins then the other 2 lose? There is no mention in an actual contradiction of love between their respective matches. There is definitely evidence of a lack of confidence in both Kanon and Shannon.

Why the fact that one of the two gaining confidence should mean the other never will and his love will fail and he'll disappear?
Couldn't they both find confidence by supporting each other instead tahn destroying each other's dream?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

4) My evidence for Kanon and Shannon taking up each other’s dreams? Well the fact that they are extremely close and know what the other’s dreams are. The EP6 duel illustrates this too that Kanon disappears because he dies (yes it could be a personality death but equally as possible is that it is metaphorically transferring ideas between 2 different people)…please tell me if I haven’t explained that well because it’s important for my argument.

Honestly it doesn't sound logic. Even if they know each other dreams they don't take them up. Shannon doesn't decide to stay on the island with Jessica in Kanon's place, she leaves with George.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

5) And actually their dreams are not contradicting but extremely similar; don’t both just want to be with their love? I don’t think that it’s specified WHERE they would have to be.

I think the problem is more with WHO they wanted to be, though Shannon definitely wanted to leave the island.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

if you need to buy off people, and we know money is a powerful incentive.

Our confession states clearly that Natsuhi was blackmailed.
Genji is loyal to Yasu as the heir to Kinzo and Beato.
Nanjo has a sick daughter and might need money to cure her.
It could be he was also blackmailed as he did things that could be judged as questionable the main one being he knew Kinzo was having sex with Beato 2 and never tattled him out and then he took part to hide Yasu's identity, which can be labelled as sort of kidnapping as she was taken away by her father... who should be sent to jail but that's another matter.
Not mentioning that apparently there weren't records about Yasu's birth and I've the feeling this isn't legal.

Even if Yasu might not have proofs for all this, if she were to tattle it out it could ruin his reputation and cause him to lose his job.

In Our Confession Kumasawa is said to be in because she believed it was a game for which she would be paid. She apparently doesn't know people are being killed for real but think they're just covered in make up.

Likely Gohda thinks the same.

Krauss was equally blackmailed.

Jessica & George in Ep 5 likely believed they were only making a joke or playing a game.

Maria seems to believe everything Beato says so if Beato says everyone is going to be revived she'll go with it.

The other siblings are likely either blackmailed, bribed or lead to think it's all an innocent game, at least at the beginning.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-10-16 at 03:05.
Reason: Don't link to that site here!

If I were Erika though, it wouldn't be that unusual to look at all the people who show up in the room. I mean, she's never met some of them before, it would not be unusual to notice them.

One way or another, that one scene is the sticky point in everything, but since we're never going to be told how any of that stuff actually functions, we'll probably never know what the intended resolution to the problem (one way or the other) was supposed to be.

I really wish KEIYA had asked about that scene at some point. Ryukishi was really unusually willing to plainly state the intended solutions to several mysteries during that interview. I doubt we'll ever get something like that again.

So a while back I picked up the Umineko VN's and just recently I decide to finish them and I was rather disappointed that the ending didn't really confirm who the culprit was although I guess that goes against the whole point of Umineko.

But anyways I stumbled across this forum and seeing how there is an entire thread on theories I might as well throw my 2 cents in. (Although this is probably a dead topic seeing how there are 1500+ pages but whatever )

So anyways,

Who dunnit:

Culprit: Shannon
Accomplices: George, Nanjo and Kanon

Apparently there is this theory about Shannon and Kanon being the same person which I guess makes sense considering the only reason I have Kanon on the list is cause of Episode 1 when he fakes his death. I don't really buy it but eh I guess it works with some cheating.

How dunnit:

Episode 1:

First Twilight: Shannon wasn't actually dead. Hideyoshi simply though she was dead and Battler really only confirmed the deaths of Rudolf, Kyrie and Krauss so theoretically the other three could have faked their deaths (Gohda Theory anyone?) Natsuhi was originally going to be the 6th victim but the whole rule Yasu made made it so she could kill her so instead she faked her own death.

Second Twilight: Shannon later when to burn Kinzo's body in the boiler room so upstairs George killed Eva and Hideyoshi then pulled a Battler-Kanon switcharoo with Shannon.

Fourth Twilight: Kinzo's dead yadayada

Fifth Twilight: Kanon faked his death YadaYada

Sixth, Seventh and Eight Twilight: Shannon and Kanon killed them Yada Yada. They killed Nanjo instead of Maria to make the illusion of the witch greater.

Added Accomplice: Rosa
Clues to this, Rosa doesn't die early , She has a scene where Beatrice discusses with her and walks away with a golden butterfly on her shoulder.

Theory about this: Shannon Threatened Rosa with saying that she would kill Maria and here if they didn't cooperate. She was disguised and possibly said someone in the family was working with her so she wouldn't break her promise. Notice how Rosa is paranoid of everyone in this Episode but in Episode three she nonchalantly walks outside and doesn't even shoot her gun at the person who killed her.

First Twilight: Door wasn't locked, Rosa lied about it. Technically the red truth only said it couldn't be unlocked without the chapel key so theoretically Rosa isn't needed here but meh. Btw the author fucked up here . Since there is a turn lock on the back it is possible to unlock the door without the Chapel key.

Second Twilight: Shannon next decided to kill Jessica. Kanon apposed this and Betrayed Shannon. He was killed for this. It's possible that she knew this would happen. She hid his body so she could pull off the next scene.

Third Twilight (I think that this is the name): Nanjo kidnaps Kumasawa and the others are forced to lie about Kanon attacking them.

Seventh and Eight Twilight: George Leaves to group, probably telling Gohda he was going to try and rescue Kumasawa. He then kills both of them.

Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Twilight: Gohda is killed by Shannon and then when George returns he is betrayed and also killed. Shannon then commits suicide.

Letter Scene: Maria left the letter there. She could have forgot it when they they left the room or Shannon told her to leave it there either way Rosa got back and thought Battler was the culprit and kicked him out.

Episode 3:

First Twilight: I'm going to introduce my Nanjo Betrayal theory here. In the first twilight Shannon and Kanon fake their deaths. Nanjo is given the key to make the illusion of the locked room later but instead betrays them and kills them after George leaves.

Second Twilight: Noticing Shannon isn't returning George asks Nanjo to kill them or Nanjo killed them to not make George suspicious of Shannon being gone.

Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Twilight: Rudolf and Kyrie get into a gunfight with Eva and Hideyoshi resulting in all of their deaths but Eva's. It's also possible George killed all of them but meh Eva Beatrice did it in the magical scene where as with Rosa Beatrice did the final blow in the end.

George's Window Scene: George notices Shannon hasn't contacted them and is getting suspicious Nanjo suggests he leaves through the window. Afterwards Nanjo follows George to the mansion and when George finds her dead Nanjo shoots him but it isn't fatal.

Seventh and Eight Twilight: Eva killed them thinking they were the real culprits. When Nanjo got back he noticed them dead and then made them look like they were killed by magic thinking he might get suspected.

Ninth Twilight: When they get back to the mansion Nanjo figures out George isn't dead. If he tells them George is Alive, it's over for Nanjo, so instead Nanjo hides George's death and tries to kill him later. However George wakes up and kills Nanjo instead.

To Be honest George is the only one who could have done this considering everyone else was proven dead by either Red or Detective's Authority. However Nanjo can easily be the culprit of this entire story. He doesn't really need anyone else to help him.

Episode 4:

First Twilight: Only Five people died. This becomes important later but the person I think survives as based on Magic scenes is Rosa. Gohda and Kumasawa were forced to lie here and were later locked up in the shed. George gives them a fake key.

The Rest of the story goes as follows since it's really disjointed.

George Kills Jessica, Gohda and Kumasawa.

Kanon and Nanjo are convinced by Kyrie, Krauss and Rosa to help them escape.

Shannon Notices this betrayal and kills Kanon before they escape where they are being held Kanon is now the 9th victim and the first of the five in Kyrie's group to die.

Next Nanjo is killed as they are running towards the mansion.

Next George is killed. He hears a gunshot and goes down to see what is going on. Shannon thinks he might also be betraying her so she shoots him.

Next is Krauss. Kyrie and Rosa Split up.

Kyrie is caught by Shannon and forced to lie to Battler and then is killed.

After the whole thing with Battler's Trial, Shannon takes Maria to Rosa who went to the dining hall probably trying to get Genji's Master key. Maria then takes her revenge on Rosa and Shoots her. Afterwards Shannon poisons Maria and goes by the well where she commits suicide.

Why Dunnit:

Shannon: Episode 7
George: Shannon asked him to and he didn't really like his family at all.
Nanjo: Sick Grandchild.
Kanon: Shannon promised to spare Jessica although she breaks her promise.

As far as the fifth game and sixth game goes. They have different culprits and or don't really matter since they are done by different game masters and are just there to help you solve the first four stories.

As far as the puzzles of these two stories go though

Episode 5: The clock was changed so the letter was placed at a different time than everyone thought. Probably to give the placer and alibi

Episode 6: Cheap trick here. Kanon left the room before Erica sealed it as he was said to be in the room before she sealed it, so he could escape. How he ceased to exist, he died.

I guess I can see why people think Shkanon from Episode 6 although maybe I didn't see it cause I never thought in that direction.

I guess Rosa is also theoretically possible as she is almost always interchangeable with Shannon and you wouldn't need her to be an accomplice for the second game but there are no hints that I could find as to why she would work with George or Kanon so this doesn't really make much sense. Not to mention Episode 7 basically said Shannon did it. The only thing that I see as hints for Rosa are in episode 2 when she whispers to Nanjo and knows that Kinzo is dead but this is what I call Red Herring hints.

As far as Prime goes I would say Battler beat George in gaining Shannon's love so in rage George killed everyone.

I think that covers everything. I probably missed some things here and there but whatever.

So yeah that's my theory on how Umineko was done. Cause the author loves Cat boxes there isn't any real truth. If the author intended Shkanon then that's cool. I don't really buy it cause it involves some cheating with wording but I can accept it if he were to say that was the answer. I could also accept a Rosatrice theory although I wouldn't like it. If it's Battler or Kinzo then I'm sure the author will be hunted down and burned in a pile of mystery novels cause that would be so cheap and third rate.

On a side note I did sorta skim the interview the author had. I see them sometimes talk about the truth behind Shannon and Kanon but is there ever a place where he confirms them being the same person?

Apparently there is this theory about Shannon and Kanon being the same person which I guess makes sense considering the only reason I have Kanon on the list is cause of Episode 1 when he fakes his death. I don't really buy it but eh I guess it works with some cheating.

It's not a theory. It's the truth confirmed by Ryukishi himself.

Quote:

As far as Prime goes I would say Battler beat George in gaining Shannon's love so in rage George killed everyone.

Best part of your post.

Quote:

On a side note I did sorta skim the interview the author had. I see them sometimes talk about the truth behind Shannon and Kanon but is there ever a place where he confirms them being the same person?

EP6 and EP7 both confirm it. One of the best confirmations is the end of EP6, which basically says in Red that there's only 16 living humans on the island. If Shannon and Kanon aren't the same person, that'd make it 17.

Thanks for posting the Our Confessions translations, Wanderer. Very interesting to see that filled in more clearly at last. Now if only we can find the missing "omitted" portions. I still remain concerned that the devil may well be in the details...

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EP6 and EP7 both confirm it. One of the best confirmations is the end of EP6, which basically says in Red that there's only 16 living humans on the island. If Shannon and Kanon aren't the same person, that'd make it 17.

Uh correct me if I'm wrong but didn't it say 17 at the end of the EP6?

What is the solution to Episode 2's third twilight? Shannon, Gohda, Kuwasama, Genji, and Nanjo are all in the servants room after finding "Kanon".

Nanjo and Kuwasama die. Genji, Godha, and Shannon return to the rest of the people. The fantasy scene shows Kanon being evaporated by a spider web by them before they return and after the two deaths. If this is the work of shkannon then why would Gohda not say anything to the family? Or immediately try to escape or dash out if they (shkannon and presumbly Genji who knows of shkannon) let him live?

Does no one have an answer to this? I'm not finding anything with the search. It's never hinted that Gohda is an accomplice, and if he is then it's a cheap tool as he dies shortly later.

I always had the impression that the whole thing with Kumasawa and Nanjo's deaths was faked, personally. Notice that the zombie Kanon tells them to suspect Rosa, and Genji/Gohda even start discussing measures they could take to protect themselves against her. This seems like a weird detail to include for no reason.

I think that Shannon and the others managed to convince Gohda that Rosa was a threat, and that they should fake Kumasawa and Nanjo's deaths so that they could investigate without being under Rosa's control. Obviously everyone there except Gohda knows that this isn't the real reason because they're all in on the plan. But I think that this is a more convincing reason for Gohda to lie than simply being bribed or blackmailed, because I can't really see him being able to do that if he actually knew that the two of them were dead.

Obviously, when Kumasawa and Nanjo go with Shannon to hide somewhere, she kills them, and then Genji moves the bodies later when he's "doing the rounds" before telling Battler/Rosa/Maria that he found their corpses.