I don't like guns myself, nor do I own one. But the 2nd Amendment is extremely important and was established for a reason. You should have the right to protect yourself. Without it, Government's got you by the balls.

[Chicago] has THE strictest guns laws in the US...but they also have THE highest murder rate in the US (over 500 murders last year) by a MILE.

It's sad you missed the part where Puerto Rico is part of the US, as most people do. In 2011, Puerto Rico broke its own record by logging 1,135 homicides — 30 killings per 100,000 residents.

However, to claim that owning guns does anything to protect our freedom from the government is naive at best. You really think you have any hope fighting back against the government with their tanks, jets, and bombs? Talk about David and Goliath. If the government wanted to try and take your guns, or anything else, your guns would not stop them. I am NOT anti-gun ownership, but arguing that people can fight off the government with guns is just silly. Or perhaps you actually have faith in your government officials to NOT use their superior firepower, because it just wouldn't be fair?

Where did I say that owning firearms was strictly out of fear of protecting yourself from Government?!

I was using the Government as a scenario of how helpless society would be without the 2nd Amendment in place. Utilizing firearms as protection against dictatorship, in this case, is only ONE example. Other examples include, criminals, wild animals, the mentally-ill, etc. And you still would be able to protect yourself against Government/authority forces if anarchy developed, regardless of the results.

And that's the point here: that your rights are protected.

But if you don't like rights or having them protected, then go move to a Socialist/Communist country and see how you'd fit in...

Please show me where I claimed that you said that "owning firearms was strictly out of fear of protecting yourself from Government?!". I am very confused where you got that idea from. Sounds like you pulled it out of nowhere. What I did say was "to claim that owning guns does anything to protect our freedom from the government is naive at best." However, I'll take it a step further. It's plain stupid. Any citizen's storehouse of guns will not protect them from the government. I reiterate that I am NOT anti-gun, but I also am not willing to use any silly excuse to justify owning one.

As for your "if you don't like rights or having them protected, then go move to a Socialist/Communist country and see how you'd fit in..." having a few guns is NOT going to protect your rights. You are JUST as helpless with or without your guns, and thinking your not only means they control you and you don't even realize it.

Finally, your claim of "you still would be able to protect yourself against Government/authority forces if anarchy developed, regardless of the results" is just confusing. Since the very definition of anarchy refers to a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority, who would your little gun protect you from?

_________________“The power of pop music to corrupt and putrify the minds of world youth are virtually limitless."

LEIGH SALES: In Australia, the government reacted to a massacre in 1996 by banning the sale, importation and possession of semi-automatic rifles and by removing 700,000 guns from circulation. In the 18 years before that we had 13 massacres. After that we had zero. We didn't have a civil war, the government didn't come and take all of our stuff away from us. Why not just give it a try in the US?

LARRY PRATT: Your violent crime rate is not so admirable and besides...

LEIGH SALES: It's a lot lower than yours.

FAKING WAVES: how the NRA and pro-gun Americans abuse Australian crime stats21 January 2013, 6.38am AEST

Good thing we have the kinder gentler Obama that will drone kill anyone he wants, love that liberal mentality. After all we wouldn't want to interrogate a suspect that would be inhumane, lets just kill em !

It amazes me that people in the US scream about insurgents killing innocents with IEDs or truck bombs, but seem to love it when we do the same thing with drones and then use the excuse that it's better than having boots on the ground .

We just need to get out of that part of the world and let them govern their own without the US constantly trying to tell them how to do it. Just get out ! Period !

I wonder how many finances go around in the gun world: from the base products to the retailers: how many people make how much in the industry, and how many jobs will be lost by this process.

Alot."There's plenty of good money to be made by supplying the Army with the tools of the trade." ~ Country Joe & The Fish.The gun shows are were crimminals or anyone who can't get a gun legally goes to get a gun in the US.It's real simple,I've been to several shows and have been offered all sorts of deals on fully automatic M-16's,AK-47's,Glocks with 30 round clips,Uzis ect.All can be modified on the spot to fully automatic weapons.Thousands of Americans go to these shows daily and the $$$'s generated by them stay in the gun community.In other words,I doubt any or even a fourth of the taxes due on such purchases are ever accounted for.So it's basically an open legal black market with guns for god/dog fearing* Americans.

*The gun lobby seems to be "fearing" everything that might be change,different or free.Freedom scares the shit outta them!

People who own firearms don't say " Gee, I have a gun...think I'll mass murder a bunch of people".It's people who decide to spree-kill who say "I can get a gun, so I'll use that. If I can't get a gun, I'll make a fertilizer bomb. If I can't do that, I'll drive a car into a crowd of people."There may be 100 people in the USA who want to kill, kill, kill...but why fuck up the the fun of the other 43-55 million gun owners just to make those 100 nutters use a different method to kill?I don't own a gun for self-defense or protection. I own one because it's fun to make it go BANG!, and because of the satisfaction of mastering the skill to hit that wee cross down at the other end of the rifle range.You can take away weapons (auto or otherwise), ban fertilizer, and prohibit cars...but a guy who needs to kill will find a way.Don't ruin my fun, just because of a handful of people who you won't stop anyway!

_________________You're probably wondering why I'm here(not that it makes a heck of a lot of a difference to ya)

I've been to several shows and have been offered all sorts of deals on fully automatic M-16's,AK-47's,Glocks with 30 round clips,Uzis ect.All can be modified on the spot to fully automatic weapons.

Is it really that easy ??

Well pedro2,it depends on the make and model.Any of the big booths have the equipment to modify anything.One display had a simple looking flare gun.The kind on boats. It fired an armor piercing grenade type projectile that basically goes through the armor and then explodes again with schrapnel and whatnot.No background check to purchase.My man inside voice sez: "Oh boy! Look at the toys and can we play with them?!" My humane voice sez:"The horror,the horror." My gut sez: There's something happening here,what it is ain't exactly clear,there's a hell of alot a guns everywhere.It's time to stop and say hey what's going on and who really pay's in the end? Why are you guys selling guns without mental health background checks at least? Hmm? D'oh! Because they can and this is America and blah,blah,allah! is it now.Next week Budda? Next week me and anyone else who looks different or ask questions? Those questions can be killers,they might even leed to a conversation and a solution.Scary stuff.With peace and laws,you don't need guns so much.That with the loss of $$$'s is a depression for gunseller's sales and a good reason for the NRA to pull the wool over they're wolfs eyes and hold up the contitution cryin' "But it's a Right!" Then blame the left.I don't covet anyones gun.We don't sell razor blades to babies and then blame the babies for the cuts they and other toddlers around them recieve.Then why is it OK with guns? There needs to be some kind of standardized test to qualify a stableminded gun owner.What that could be is apparently up to some debate! Ha!To me guns are like kids,It's OK to have two...after that it's over-population and over-kill.Especially if you can't afford any kids or shoes or your religion tells you to have more! The biggest mistake is when there's a kid born into a life with no love.Those are the poor torcherd bastards that kill people with many guns and rounds of ammo.They see no other way out.imho

I've been to several shows and have been offered all sorts of deals on fully automatic M-16's,AK-47's,Glocks with 30 round clips,Uzis ect.All can be modified on the spot to fully automatic weapons.

Is it really that easy ??

Well pedro2,it depends on the make and model.Any of the big booths have the equipment to modify anything.One display had a simple looking flare gun.The kind on boats. It fired an armor piercing grenade type projectile that basically goes through the armor and then explodes again with schrapnel and whatnot.No background check to purchase.My man inside voice sez: "Oh boy! Look at the toys and can we play with them?!" My humane voice sez:"The horror,the horror." My gut sez: There's something happening here,what it is ain't exactly clear,there's a hell of alot a guns everywhere.It's time to stop and say hey what's going on and who really pay's in the end? Why are you guys selling guns without mental health background checks at least? Hmm? D'oh! Because they can and this is America and blah,blah,allah! is it now.Next week Budda? Next week me and anyone else who looks different or ask questions? Those questions can be killers,they might even leed to a conversation and a solution.Scary stuff.With peace and laws,you don't need guns so much.That with the loss of $$$'s is a depression for gunseller's sales and a good reason for the NRA to pull the wool over they're wolfs eyes and hold up the contitution cryin' "But it's a Right!" Then blame the left.I don't covet anyones gun.We don't sell razor blades to babies and then blame the babies for the cuts they and other toddlers around them recieve.Then why is it OK with guns? There needs to be some kind of standardized test to qualify a stableminded gun owner.What that could be is apparently up to some debate! Ha!To me guns are like kids,It's OK to have two...after that it's over-population and over-kill.Especially if you can't afford any kids or shoes or your religion tells you to have more! The biggest mistake is when there's a kid born into a life with no love.Those are the poor torcherd bastards that kill people with many guns and rounds of ammo.They see no other way out.imho

This is why we should have a standardised test before being able to have children same applies to voting !!!

_________________A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see

It's true that one guy managed to crash his car into a crowd in Apeldoorn in 2009, but that wasn't his aim: he was going for the queen. A car rampage is not all that effective: steering the beast, striking around, traffic jams, hoping enough people are gathered to make sure they don't get away... An automated rifle rampage goes a lot faster, more efficient and guns are much more manageable than cars.

There have been murdrous rampages everywhere since WW2, but not many, and most of the ones that happened involved guns in some way or another. Look at the list of US massacres: guns are just easy and effective.

I've seen several memes on Facebook (which is getting less and less appealing to me) of things like "Don't know how many automatic weapons you have? Then you don't have enough!" and guns shaped into hearts. And some policeman in Minnesota or Wisconsin recommending that you shoot people that the government send to take away your guns. It's seems hypocritical to me or maybe they just don't realize that the soldiers they are always praising would be the ones to come and take their guns away.

_________________One of the sanest, surest, and most generous joys of life comes from being happy over the good fortune of others.

you'll find that in 2009 81.6 % of all crimes that involved guns , a handgun was used.Only 2% of all crimes had the usage of machine , or automatic guns.

I don't know for sure , but I think a .38 semi-automatic pistol is a handgun while an uzi is a machine gun. An AR15 is a semi-automatic rifle and rifles accounted to just 8.8% of guns used in all crimes.

If you further at the study linked here , you will find that machine guns were attributed to 16.7% of Street Gang Crime.

Once again , it's not the intimate object being used , it's the behavior of the person with the object.Get rid of the guns and they will find something else to use.

It's not really that easy to find a replacement for a gun. There may be a hundred ways to kill a man, but a gun works in many more cases, when you can't count on surprise, when there's a group of people around you... In the Netherlands a woman was killed, possibly murdered, by biro. But you can hardly use a writing utensil to commit a robbery or take people hostage. The same goes for wrenches, swords, ropes, daggers and any other instrument you can think of that could do the job.

"It's seems hypocritical to me or maybe they just don't realize that the soldiers they are always praising would be the ones to come and take their guns away." - calvin2hikers

You have stumbled onto the crux of the biscuit. Or maybe you knew it was there.

Confiscation has to be carried out, it would seem, for a gun ban to have any immediate teeth. There's just too many people in America that own guns. Whatever agency does the confiscation is going to have a very hard time. This is why your hear of county sheriffs saying they will not enforce a gun ban. They don't want to get their asses shot off.

"It's seems hypocritical to me or maybe they just don't realize that the soldiers they are always praising would be the ones to come and take their guns away." - calvin2hikers

You have stumbled onto the crux of the biscuit. Or maybe you knew it was there.

Confiscation has to be carried out, it would seem, for a gun ban to have any immediate teeth. There's just too many people in America that own guns. Whatever agency does the confiscation is going to have a very hard time. This is why your hear of county sheriffs saying they will not enforce a gun ban. They don't want to get their asses shot off.

A total gun ban is a logistical impossibility with out at least 80% public cooperation, their are approximately (I know this number varies from place to place, this is all inclusive legal illegal) 300,000,000 guns possessed by 100,000,000 people...

It reminds me of an old construction job I did on a farm out behind the Butte Mountains and this guy was a big time almond farmer (hundreds of maybe thousands of acres) and he stockpiled fire wood for 10 years. He was told his wood was blocking the location were he should build his new almond processing plant.

He said I will move it, Greg the guy I worked with said Plook come here, he had climbed up about 8 feet and was over looking the wood pile. I get up there and saw what I would say was nearly an acre of land covered with fire wood stack 6 to 8 feet high, I was astonished at the magnitude of it...Greg said where do you start...

This gun confiscation thing is very similar, just a massive logistical nightmare that could never happen, how long would it take to visit 100,000,000 residences even if you devoted thousands of people to the task...

What happens when the first person gets killed, hell some gun people near my house flipped out when the Census Bureau gal came by (in 2010) and they pulled guns on her, she called the cops and they pulled guns on the cops they shoot and killed the women resident...

That was for the census, what if their coming to get your guns, it will never happen...

Once again , it's not the intimate object being used , it's the behavior of the person with the object.Get rid of the guns and they will find something else to use.

I'm not sayin' take guns away.There's got to be someway of lessening the chances of weapons being used by people in depression and on meds or under the care of a shrink and so on.The signs were all there pointing at these mass killers all over the world that could of prevented so much carnage.Is it even possible to agree on some sort of mental/felonious background check? Shut down these gun shows and support your local firearm merchant.That would help a little,I would think.Issue Tazers to everyone,make killing up close and personnel.I'd bet the murder rate would go down.

Screw guns,everybody must get stoned! Ouch! Not that kind of stoned! Let's not get physical.Have you never been mellow? Jeez...we could all live in peace on roller blades in....Zappadoon! Ha!

The entire gun debate is nothing more than free advertising that utilizes the old classic standby sales tactic by promting fear to peddle product.

I say, if certain guns aren't going to be banned, then the gun idustry and it's consumers should be soley responsible for covering ALL of the costs of gun related crimes, including wrongful death lawsuits resulting from the use and/or misuse of their product, hospital costs, legal costs and full restitution for victims of gun crimes. The cigarette industry had to pay up. So did the asbestos industry and drug companies. Even the oil industry. It's only fair that all businesses play by the same legal rules regarding mortality related to their products and services. You want to play, you have to pay.

The entire gun debate is nothing more than free advertising that utilizes the old classic standby sales tactic by promting fear to peddle product.

I say, if certain guns aren't going to be banned, then the gun idustry and it's consumers should be soley responsible for covering ALL of the costs of gun related crimes, including wrongful death lawsuits resulting from the use and/or misuse of their product, hospital costs, legal costs and full restitution for victims of gun crimes. The cigarette industry had to pay up. So did the asbestos industry and drug companies. Even the oil industry. It's only fair that all businesses play by the same legal rules regarding mortality related to their products and services. You want to play, you have to pay.

I like that idea Spacebro'.There's no accountability and until there is,it's gonna be the same old story.

Joe Biden ia politician. Like all politicians, he'll say one thing one day and the contrary the other day. He's not THE champion in lying. Remember Bush ? The all-time low-down dirty rat.

The point here is Biden knows that stricter gun laws aren't going to make a major difference.

Mij wrote:

And, like it or not, less guns = less mass killings. A simple math. Christ, why is so hard to get for some peoples ?Like less cold virus = less cold, less junk food = less cholesterol, less money = less buying power, etc.... A simple matter of substraction.

There's very little truth to that. In some very small countries like Australia that appears to be true but it's certainly not true in the vast majority of them. Re-read the stats pedro2 and I have posted regarding this issue...

Mij wrote:

You love your guns too much, it's your new mommy. You used it to protect you from fear of dictatorship, and all your other fears.And you need it to protect you from fellows who have guns. I'm sure you don't get the irony.As a society, you painted yourself in a corner. There are many countries in this world that live without that gun craziness.We don't hear them often in the news for mass shooting, not as often as USA for sure.You face your fears with a gun.

Tell me, when you go to crowded places, do you bring it with you ? Do you have your AK47 by your side, or a small hand gun in your pocket ? Do you look into everybody's eyes to see if you can find something you don't trust ? Are you nervous ? Do you sweat ? Do you analyse peoples reactions as they pass by ? Are you always ready to shoot when hearing unsuspected loud noises ? Do you think you'll have time to react when pointed by a gun ? Are you tempted to leave the children in the car just in case ? Are you happy to live in such a paranoid state of mind ? Wouldn't you prefer to go to crowded places without all that crap ?

Only in America !

I don't own or use guns, nor do I like them. But I do believe you should have the right to protect yourself if you choose to. Pay attention.

duchamp wrote:

Disco Boy wrote:

Where did I say that owning firearms was strictly out of fear of protecting yourself from Government?!

I was using the Government as a scenario of how helpless society would be without the 2nd Amendment in place. Utilizing firearms as protection against dictatorship, in this case, is only ONE example. Other examples include, criminals, wild animals, the mentally-ill, etc. And you still would be able to protect yourself against Government/authority forces if anarchy developed, regardless of the results.

And that's the point here: that your rights are protected.

But if you don't like rights or having them protected, then go move to a Socialist/Communist country and see how you'd fit in...

Please show me where I claimed that you said that "owning firearms was strictly out of fear of protecting yourself from Government?!". I am very confused where you got that idea from. Sounds like you pulled it out of nowhere. What I did say was "to claim that owning guns does anything to protect our freedom from the government is naive at best."

Then why did you make a big deal about it in the bulk of your last post in response to what I had said?

duchamp wrote:

It's sad you missed the part where Puerto Rico is part of the US, as most people do. In 2011, Puerto Rico broke its own record by logging 1,135 homicides — 30 killings per 100,000 residents.

Uh, thanks...but that report is referring to 2011. According to that article, however, Puerto Rico's murder rate by late 2012, which is more relevant to this topic, was nearly 900. And it's arguable whether or not Puerto Rico is really part of the US. But since you think so, you'd better inform mainstream media they are.

duchamp wrote:

However, I'll take it a step further. It's plain stupid. Any citizen's storehouse of guns will not protect them from the government. I reiterate that I am NOT anti-gun, but I also am not willing to use any silly excuse to justify owning one.

As for your "if you don't like rights or having them protected, then go move to a Socialist/Communist country and see how you'd fit in..." having a few guns is NOT going to protect your rights. You are JUST as helpless with or without your guns, and thinking your not only means they control you and you don't even realize it.

Finally, your claim of "you still would be able to protect yourself against Government/authority forces if anarchy developed, regardless of the results" is just confusing. Since the very definition of anarchy refers to a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority, who would your little gun protect you from?

Well, I disagree. I think you would still be able to protect yourself against Government/authority forces or ANYBODY who poses a threat to you or your family, if anarchy developed, regardless of the results.

Is that better? I certainly hope so. Because I think you would've gotten my point by now. But I guess not. Anyway, since we're getting semantical, let's look at the definition of "anarchy", shall we?...

You may want to read #3 and the additional synonyms towards the bottom of the link.

The point is: your rights should be protected. And again, that's just an example of utilizing protection of your rights...

just plain doug wrote:

People who own firearms don't say " Gee, I have a gun...think I'll mass murder a bunch of people".It's people who decide to spree-kill who say "I can get a gun, so I'll use that. If I can't get a gun, I'll make a fertilizer bomb. If I can't do that, I'll drive a car into a crowd of people."There may be 100 people in the USA who want to kill, kill, kill...but why fuck up the the fun of the other 43-55 million gun owners just to make those 100 nutters use a different method to kill?I don't own a gun for self-defense or protection. I own one because it's fun to make it go BANG!, and because of the satisfaction of mastering the skill to hit that wee cross down at the other end of the rifle range.You can take away weapons (auto or otherwise), ban fertilizer, and prohibit cars...but a guy who needs to kill will find a way.Don't ruin my fun, just because of a handful of people who you won't stop anyway!

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