The much bigger question is: Will Tunisia's new government use the opportunity to install a real democracy with press freedom, freedom to assemble, to candidate... or will they go the tried and known route and fall back to the dictatorship?

The main obstacle in Islamic Societies is Fatalism - something I agree with obviously, everything is mapped out and one can only accept it - but in terms of change it is a problem. People tend to accept quite a lot unless pushed to far or invested with some sort of fundamentalist fervour.

Quote:

there is no need, freedom is already there to elect different parties or to even found new ones, revolution can happen at the ballot-box

This is a joke right? Wow........

Quote:

, if that doesn't happen, it just means too many people are too comfortable with the status quo.

"IF" hahahah!!!

Of course it's not going to happen!!!! The ballot-box is the primary tool of oppression. It promotes the mediocre and conformists. It is a tool of Satan.

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Besides those wishing for revolution don't have an alternative society/economy-model that could replace the "Adam Smith"-model (with a bit Keynesiamism thrown in) of generating wealth.

That's the point...and hence the violence so far....it's born out of frustration of no alternative.

One is happening though....particularly in Muslim societies. You don't hear of it because those societies and the West have joined forces to stop news of it for two reasons:

1) The Western Media do not want "Muslim Good News"

2) The East do not want any news of it leaking.

Just one example at random - earlier in the Islam thread it was mentioned about the Muslim human shields protecting the Copts.

Nothing in Mainstream Media obviously.

But the question is: could such a thing really happen without a network, ideology and a strong commitment? In short a movement.

It exists and it is growing.

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Communism hasn't worked, the islamistic sharia-non-interest-model is feared rather than desired, so what should the new paradigma look like?

Capitalism equally hasn't worked and the Shari'a non-interest model DOES work and is only feared by the sheep - it works so well that many, many Western Capitalists use it because it realizes more profit for them.

They just don't want normal citizens to use it.

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What should motivate one to leave the bed early and to do hard/dirty work, to study or ... besides money or the expectation of future money?

I can think of many things...if you can't then maybe you will be on the other side of the fence when it kicks off.

Fair enough but one should choose one's side soon I think.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

What is interesting is the Palestinian and Israeli flags. And the location: Tel Aviv.

This is a protest against the Israeli government's clamp-down on NGOs and other Human rights agencies.

Essentially an inquiry is being planned into whistle-blowers and investigators into Israeli army activities and possible abuses. Exactly the sort of thing that SHOULD and DOES happen in democracies in general.

What is interesting here though is that it is being opposed by groups that are not traditionally opposed to Israeli policies.

Quote:

On Saturday, several thousand Israelis took to the streets of downtown Tel Aviv to show their opposition to the inquiry and a whole series of laws proposed by the governing right-wing coalition.

They blew whistles, beat drums and chanted pro-democracy slogans. Many waved the Israeli flag and a few carried Palestinian ones.

"We came to protest against the government's policies and the lack of democracy in our country," said Tal, a demonstrator in his twenties. "We're also showing that we support the peace process."

"I think that Israeli society is going to very dark places because of our foreign minister and prime minister," added a local woman, Karen.

"People who aren't Jewish and aren't on the extreme right are facing political delegitimisation."

Worldwide the opposition to many issues is being expressed by the unification of groups that were previously disinterested or actually even in opposition.

The main obstacle in Islamic Societies is Fatalism - something I agree with obviously, everything is mapped out and one can only accept it - but in terms of change it is a problem. People tend to accept quite a lot unless pushed to far or invested with some sort of fundamentalist fervour.

This is a joke right? Wow........

"IF" hahahah!!!

Of course it's not going to happen!!!! The ballot-box is the primary tool of oppression. It promotes the mediocre and conformists. It is a tool of Satan.

That's the point...and hence the violence so far....it's born out of frustration of no alternative.

One is happening though....particularly in Muslim societies. You don't hear of it because those societies and the West have joined forces to stop news of it for two reasons:

1) The Western Media do not want "Muslim Good News"

2) The East do not want any news of it leaking.

Just one example at random - earlier in the Islam thread it was mentioned about the Muslim human shields protecting the Copts.

Nothing in Mainstream Media obviously.

But the question is: could such a thing really happen without a network, ideology and a strong commitment? In short a movement.

It exists and it is growing.

Capitalism equally hasn't worked and the Shari'a non-interest model DOES work and is only feared by the sheep - it works so well that many, many Western Capitalists use it because it realizes more profit for them.

They just don't want normal citizens to use it.

I can think of many things...if you can't then maybe you will be on the other side of the fence when it kicks off.

Fair enough but one should choose one's side soon I think.

Satin is bullshit! Sheer and plain democracy works only if the people let it work.Live in other communist and 3rd world countries and then tell me capitalism is no good.

Oh look...I have lived there....yippee I get permission!! Wait for it:

CAPITALISM IS NO GOOD

Hasn't capitalism been the driving force behind nearly all inventions of the last two hundred years? Cars, trains, airplanes, computers... television (ok I give you that, television is really bad.. mostly)... the average wealth in capitalistic states went up considerably... sure there is the pollution of the earth, the nukes (but then nukes also brought MAD-peace) and the rich became much more rich than the poor did... but still the poor of today in capitalistic states are better off than the poor in former times or in non-capitalistic states, so why is capitalism no good?

And if you are convinced of that what new model would you suggest and don't say again the scandinavian model, the scandinavian model is a capitalistic one with some social security systems thrown in for good measure.

I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?

Hasn't capitalism been the driving force behind nearly all inventions of the last two hundred years?

And if you are convinced of that what new model would you suggest and don't say again the scandinavian model, the scandinavian model is a capitalistic one with some social security systems thrown in for good measure.

Capitalism has controlled the world for the last 200 years. So of course all inventions would stem from it.

But they built on early developments - there were a couple of thousand years before Capitalism as you probably know.

Those years had their own inventions and developments too and it would be the same if Capitalism disappeared.

As to suggestions: I don't suggest. I have no idea and no knowledge of such things.

I do know that Capitalism will be superceded though. It is not, and cannot be, the be all and end all and a perfect system.

At best it is a stage in our development and, imo, is crumbling and will be replaced. Probably in the next 100 years more or less.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Capitalism has controlled the world for the last 200 years. So of course all inventions would stem from it.

But they built on early developments - there were a couple of thousand years before Capitalism as you probably know.

Those years had their own inventions and developments too and it would be the same if Capitalism disappeared.

Yes, but the difference is the speed and amount of inventions which is unrivalled in all times and the communistic states in the last hundred years did not come forth with many inventions, if any at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by segovius

As to suggestions: I don't suggest. I have no idea and no knowledge of such things.

I do know that Capitalism will be superceded though. It is not, and cannot be, the be all and end all and a perfect system.

At best it is a stage in our development and, imo, is crumbling and will be replaced. Probably in the next 100 years more or less.

Fair enough, I just thought that maybe you read some books from some visionary economist or philosophist that drew up a new model, I mean there must be somewhere if the change should happen in the next 100 years. The capitalism drew much from Adam Smith's works and communism drew much from Marx and Engel's works so I was curious to see what the change will be based upon this time.

I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?

[QUOTE=Nightcrawler;1790176]Yes, but the difference is the speed and amount of inventions which is unrivalled in all times and the communistic states in the last hundred years did not come forth with many inventions, if any at all.

Whose talking about Communist states?

You're also wrong btw - the USSR beat the US to put men in space and satellite technology and nearly beat them to put men on the moon. And also developed their own atomic power systems. All independently of any Western research.

I would also argue that the US space program was not the result of a Capitalist system - the main research was from German/Nazi sources and Werner von Braun. Without him they would not have done it, at least for a much longer period of time.

I would not call Nazi Germany Capitalist.

Quote:

Fair enough, I just thought that maybe you read some books from some visionary economist or philosophist that drew up a new model, I mean there must be somewhere if the change should happen in the next 100 years. The capitalism drew much from Adam Smith's works and communism drew much from Marx and Engel's works so I was curious to see what the change will be based upon this time.

There are some models but no-one really knows do they? My opinion is based more on history - all systems rise and fall and are replaced and I think we are seeing clear signs of this now...I could be wrong though.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

The success of Tunisias Jasmine Revolution, the first of its kind in an Arab country, has caught the worlds attention. Chinese are watching closely, too. Internet users and Chinese commentators say the dramatic events in Tunisia are an inspiration for the Chinese people.

Tunisian society bears many similarities to contemporary Chinese society, such as great disparities between rich and poor, soaring food prices, high unemployment rates, government corruption, an entrenched political dictatorship, and serious social turmoil. These similarities lead several experts to contemplate the possibility of a similar outcome for China.

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

Yes, but the difference is the speed and amount of inventions which is unrivalled in all times and the communistic states in the last hundred years did not come forth with many inventions, if any at all.

Whose talking about Communist states?

You're also wrong btw - the USSR beat the US to put men in space and satellite technology and nearly beat them to put men on the moon. And also developed their own atomic power systems. All independently of any Western research.

I would also argue that the US space program was not the result of a Capitalist system - the main research was from German/Nazi sources and Werner von Braun. Without him they would not have done it, at least for a much longer period of time.

I would not call Nazi Germany Capitalist.

Capitalism does not necessarily mean a 100%-private-business-economy, there is another strong force in development like you mentioned here and that is nationalism and the states that use it to do big projects that private initiatives would not stem because they are not profitable in the near future. The space-program is something like this as well as the building of highways.

The state and nationalism can work to help the private part of the economy to blossom by doing these big projects and later the private economy can join in and blossom it out. The space-program could one future day be entered by private economy when technology and infrastructure has developed so much to make interplanetary travel easy and fast and stations are built on mars and other planets or moons of planets.

Communist states likewise could do these big nationalistic projects well but the private-business-economy lacked where the myriad inventions that help us in our day to day life stem from.

A 100%-private-economy would be outrunning itself, a state is necessary to create new environments and possibilities for the private economy to flourish in by creating the infrastructure for it, a process that is expensive and not profitable in the short-midterm.

The capitalism might get into crisis when all the possibilities for growth are used on earth, but it could get a much bigger lease, when the states create new possibilities in space with other planets.

I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?

Seems that as Capitalism is getting a hold then some shocks are in store.

One is that you can now get a $35 bowl of soup. Soup is generally $1 but this one is more.

Quote:

The next stop was for "pho" - the breakfast staple, a noodle soup that fuels the nation and steams from big pots in the cold Hanoi air, usually selling for $1 (£0.60) a bowl.

Many people still eat at roadside cafes but we were not going to any old street-food joint, we were to sample the country's most expensive pho - at $35 a bowl.

The restaurant owner talked us through the quality of his Japanese beef, the cleanliness of his kitchen and how much the rich are willing to stump up to slurp down Vietnam's priciest soup.

I think that last bolded bit really sums up what Capitalism can do - perhaps ALL Capitalism can do. We don't get to see it in the West because we have been exposed to it all our lives and never knew anything else.

But here, at the transition point, we can see quite clearly.

Before: everyone can afford a $1 soup

After: some people can have the $35 soup - others can only afford the $1 soup

Here you have it in essence: it is a system that moves things from an egalitarian footing to one where it is legitimized that certain groups can have more.

Seems that as Capitalism is getting a hold then some shocks are in store.

One is that you can now get a $35 bowl of soup. Soup is generally $1 but this one is more.

I think that last bolded bit really sums up what Capitalism can do - perhaps ALL Capitalism can do. We don't get to see it in the West because we have been exposed to it all our lives and never knew anything else.

But here, at the transition point, we can see quite clearly.

Before: everyone can afford a $1 soup

After: some people can have the $35 soup - others can only afford the $1 soup

Here you have it in essence: it is a system that moves things from an egalitarian footing to one where it is legitimized that certain groups can have more.

Or certain groups can be fooled into thinking they are getting more and paying for it out of sheer elitist snobbery. I have had the more expensive meals at the better restaurants. Overhyped, to the extreme. Paid way to much for food that was arguably less appetizing than what I could get a much cheaper restaurant. I have never even desired to go back, not because of the price, but because the food was truly disappointing.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

Or certain groups can be fooled into thinking they are getting more and paying for it out of sheer elitist snobbery. I have had the more expensive meals at the better restaurants. Overhyped, to the extreme. Paid way to much for food that was arguably less appetizing than what I could get a much cheaper restaurant. I have never even desired to go back, not because of the price, but because the food was truly disappointing.

I agree totally. Same has happened to me at a notorious restaurant here (I didn't pay luckily) - full horrendous details in my reply to Frank below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank777

Or perhaps Capitalism simply opened the door to regular people enjoying $35. soup once in a while.

As opposed to the leftists' preferred system, where only party members get those perks behind closed doors.

Or maybe not.

In my experience alluded to above this notorious restaurant El Bulli here in Barcelona charges a flat fee for the menu.

That fee is 250 Euros per person.

Without drinks.

Courses are miniscule, hardly earth-shattering imo and you WILL leave hungry. We had to go to a pizzeria afterwards.

But I agree - THIS is Capitalism in action. YOu seem to love it but other's may think it is a con for the sheep and a case of the Emperor's New Clothes.

You pays your money....

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

I remember many people saying that Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan had a high likelyhood of spurring more conflicts in the region. That hasn't happened, but are these uprisings connected in any way?

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

I remember many people saying that Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan had a high likelyhood of spurring more conflicts in the region. That hasn't happened, but are these uprisings connected in any way?

Personally I don't think so...seems more to do with the economic crisis.....

People are really suffering in the wallet and seeing their leaders being more greedy.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Anti-government activists in Egypt are preparing for a rare day of protest, inspired by the recent political upheaval in Tunisia.
Organisers have called for a "day of revolt against torture, poverty, corruption and unemployment".
But the government has warned they face arrest and is calling its supporters out in a counter-demonstration.

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

Though tens of thousands took to the streets of Cairo in 2005 calling for democratic reform, today's protests are far beyond the action in the capital. Reporters and activists on the scene in Cairo say there was a spirit of anger and defiance in the crowds and there were protests of varying sizes in at least a half-dozen Egyptian cities.....

But the riveting images beamed into millions of Egyptian homes of the Tunisian uprising appear to have led to a shift in the public consciousness, at least for today. A small group of leftists and democracy activists have been trying to organize protests like today's for years, but have generally failed to get large numbers out on the streets. Average Egyptians, mired in poverty and afraid of the consequences of participating in protests they suspect are doomed to failure, have stayed away.

That clearly changed today. Activists were reporting on their twitter feeds (until twitter service was shut down in Egypt at about 3:30 pm local time) that thousands from working class neighborhoods like Shubra, a warren-like neighborhood with millions of mostly poor residents, joined the protest marchers as they passed, and joined in shouts for Mubarak, his son and presumed heir Gamal, and Interior Minister Habib el-Adly to be driven from power....

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

How on earth will another Bush be able to bomb these countries to bits when they're no longer run by evil dictators? On second thoughts that hasn't stopped them in the past, Iran springs to mind from a few years back. Lol, maybe these countries will invade us to restore human rights in the future.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

How on earth will another Bush be able to bomb these countries to bits when they're no longer run by evil dictators?

I'm sure they'll think of something.

It's not like it takes much to convince the sheep - no evidence needed or anything. They'll probably try the old 'it says wiped off the map but in their funny language so you can't understand it and will have to trust us' routine.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

It's not like it takes much to convince the sheep - no evidence needed or anything. They'll probably try the old 'it says wiped off the map but in their funny language so you can't understand it and will have to trust us' routine.

Yep, that cards still there no matter what.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

2) US sticking their oar in when they think things are getting out of hand. Doing something stupid but not too extreme.

3) this will cause the hardcore US toadies like Saudi to react and it will kick off there with massive unrest.

4) Iranians rise up.

I would not be surprised to see the Mullahs toppled in Iran within the next ten years - I just hope the US can be kept out and no Shah BS like the last time makes a comeback.

The House of Saud is also far more fragile (imo) than many people realize and is far too closely upheld by the US. If freedom sweeps the Arab world I really think they could go. Might take a bit longer but I would not be surprised at all if it went that way in the next 20 - 30 years.

Trouble is, what would replace it? Whose hands would Mecca be in? This is the major reason for US support (again imho) and it is a biggie. As much as I despise the Saudis for a million reasons it might be better to have them there depending on the alternatives.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

"Confirming what a few have reported this evening: in an action unprecedented in Internet history, the Egyptian government appears to have ordered service providers to shut down all international connections to the Internet. Critical European-Asian fiber-optic routes through Egypt appear to be unaffected for now. But every Egyptian provider, every business, bank, Internet cafe, website, school, embassy, and government office that relied on the big four Egyptian ISPs for their Internet connectivity is now cut off from the rest of the world. Link Egypt, Vodafone/Raya, Telecom Egypt, Etisalat Misr, and all their customers and partners are, for the moment, off the air."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_815156.html

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

The Arabs are protesting about the same crap that's happening here in America. They want more egalitarianism, an end to corruption, plutocracy and nepotism, and finally they've taken to the streets, as mad as hell.

Meanwhile, here in the US, we are taking it up the proverbial backside, and doing nothing. What a bunch of wimps the US public are: ignorant due to broad-based corporate media conditioning, that they really believe they have "freedom"....

The Tunisian, Egyptian and Yemeni people are stepping up to the plate. Which nation is next?

It is interesting that these 3 ultra corrupt governments, one of which has been toppled, and two are being challenged, are(were) big supporters of the so called "war on terrorism". This was probably as a result of bribery and threats: toe the line, or its a carpet of bombs.

It seems as if these North African States have taken up the "Spirit of 1776", while the US remains on a fast track to "1984".

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow

The Tunisian, Egyptian and Yemeni people are stepping up to the plate. Which nation is next?

It is interesting that these 3 ultra corrupt governments, one of which has been toppled, and two are being challenged, are(were) big supporters of the so called "war on terrorism". This was probably as a result of bribery and threats: toe the line, or its a carpet of bombs.

It seems as if these North African States have taken up the "Spirit of 1776", while the US remains on a fast track to "1984".

Today is D-Day in Egypt imo.

After Friday prayers it will for sure kick off..... no doubt there will be some hot and inspiring sermons preached throughout the whole country!!!

The security forces will then have two choices:

1) Deal with it brutally - and knowing Egypt's goons this will be extreme

2) Let it go down.

Either one of these has the potential for spreading the unrest to other regions.

Imo #1 will see it spread to other states

#2 may see Egypt protests flare up and fizzle out but seems less chance of protests spreading immediately.

It just depends how wise the Egyptian govt is....which in turn means #1 I guess.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad