BrooklynBronco wrote:I think we need to address PM's arm strength. He doesn't have the zip to throw against a fast defense. Not a hater it's just age and nerve damage.

And you would bring in who to replace him? Mike Vick?

Don't say the Big O. It's not his time, at least not yet.

Despite the debacle against Seattle, I'm not going to forget the greatest regular season performance of a QB of ALL-TIME, including a couple of great games in the playoffs as well. Ask the Patriots what they think of Peyton's arm strength after he put up 400 yards on them.

The biggest problem in the Super Bowl, besides horrific execution like the bad snap and a mediocre game plan, was the fact Seattle was able to drop 7 people in coverage and STILL collapse the pocket. You're not going to win if that's the case. Period.

Bill Walton wrote:Who is this guy Kiszla? {Admission.........I followed Manning to Denver when he left Indy but have seen every play of every game since he began playing for the Broncos. I live in the East.} Does Kiszla think this is 7th grade flag football? Some NFL teams with good defenses have a "heart and soul" guy like Ray Lewis was for the Ravens but some DON'T too. This isn't little league. Kiszla read too many Hardy Boys books when he was growing up.

Bill Walton wrote:Who is this guy Kiszla? {Admission.........I followed Manning to Denver when he left Indy but have seen every play of every game since he began playing for the Broncos. I live in the East.} Does Kiszla think this is 7th grade flag football? Some NFL teams with good defenses have a "heart and soul" guy like Ray Lewis was for the Ravens but some DON'T too. This isn't little league. Kiszla read too many Hardy Boys books when he was growing up.

Bill Walton wrote:Who is this guy Kiszla? {Admission.........I followed Manning to Denver when he left Indy but have seen every play of every game since he began playing for the Broncos. I live in the East.} Does Kiszla think this is 7th grade flag football? Some NFL teams with good defenses have a "heart and soul" guy like Ray Lewis was for the Ravens but some DON'T too. This isn't little league. Kiszla read too many Hardy Boys books when he was growing up.

I would be nice if we could trade Kizla for Kravitz.

Kravitz was here. He was terrible and run out of Denver.

More proof that Peyton Manning has the Midas touch. He bought 21 pizza franchises 3 weeks before Colorado legalized pot.

"Do not trust the internet when citing quotes. It is often inaccurate" Thomas Jefferson

retro-grouch wrote:A number of fans and commentators programmed their view of the Broncos over the course of the season: "Offense is great, defense is bad". I wouldn't be at all surprised if quite a few sportswriters wrote "Broncos Defense Cost Them" columns before the big game.

That POV had its moments--Dallas--but things changed over the course of the playoffs.

Now, they can't seem to get their brains to accept that what actually happened was that the defense played pretty well and the offense collapsed. There's a term for this, "cognitive dissonance". It's painful, but there is a way out: just pretend it happened the way you thought it was going to happen. Deny reality. Viola! Discomfort is gone.

There is one group of people who haven't forgotten, and will never forget, what actually happened. That's the Broncos 2013 defense.

The problem with the Broncos "leadership voice" is not on the defensive side of the ball. Those remaining players from 2013 are going to welcome Ware, Talib, and Ward as allies in the ongoing fight to gain some respect in an "all QBs all the time" league. Anyone who can stay healthy and bring it on Sunday is going to have all the voice that they need, even if they don't say a single word.

On the offensive side, there is some repair work to be done. There are two levels to the problem. The first is that they were terrible. That's easy; own it and move on. The second level is that they didn't have a functional game plan, strategy, or preparation for the type of game that they actually ended up playing. The Broncos offense was among the madding crowd repeating the mantra "Offense is great; defense is bad."

The Broncos offense knows how to get 35 points out of a bad defense but they don't know how to get 17 points out of a great defense. They got some learnin to do.

Wrong... The offense had to put up points or else. The offense led the team. Once the offense struggled in the SB, it was over. Manning was and is the team leader. Elway's moves on the defensive side with the recent signings is an attempt to shift the balance of the team some, to create a different team identity, one that doesn't rely as much on Manning's performance to win. Clearly the Broncos want to toughen the defensive side up to match up better against the NFC powers. And to do that they want to see a different style of play defensively, one that is more aggressive, particularly in the secondary, also one that will play tough all 4 quarters and not let teams make a last minute run. How many times during the season during the season did we see a late 4th quarter lapse? Remember the Charger game in the playoffs? The Broncos dominate and then it's hold-your-breath as Rivers makes it close, to close for comfort. That's was more than a single player breakdown.

The D ranked 22nd. The O ranked #1, by far. There was to much pressure on the O to perform big.... Elway wants the Broncos to win with 35, 24 and maybe even 17 points. You got to have a solid D to carry a heavier load with lower scoring games. That can give Manning and the O a better shot at finding their footing and shift a game's momentum.

"It's entirely possible (Von) Miller can again be a dominate pass rusher..."Gee, a professional writer who can't hear himself bleat.The word is not dominate. The word is dominant.Buy a dictionary and study it, twit.

elotro45@yahoo.com wrote:"It's entirely possible (Von) Miller can again be a dominate pass rusher..."Gee, a professional writer who can't hear himself bleat.The word is not dominate. The word is dominant.Buy a dictionary and study it, twit.

It's a pity that newspapers no longer employ proofreaders and copy editors.

He is the WORST 'journalist of the Denver Post 3 Stooges who also include Paige and Klis. How on earth he still has a job is beyond comprehension. It really says something about the "news"paper as well when the 3 stooges are the only ones they can keep around. EVERY single talented writer gets out of town before you can blink. EI - Adam Schefter, Dave Krieger (best ever), Lindsay Jones, Jeff Ledgewold- all gone but still have to see this utter moron break down the local beat of our beloved teams. Utter bafoonery at it's worst. Tell us again Kizla how Peyton Manning would NEVER sign in Denver and then after he did how he would NEVER amount to anything. BUFFOON!!

retro-grouch wrote:A number of fans and commentators programmed their view of the Broncos over the course of the season: "Offense is great, defense is bad". I wouldn't be at all surprised if quite a few sportswriters wrote "Broncos Defense Cost Them" columns before the big game.

That POV had its moments--Dallas--but things changed over the course of the playoffs.

Now, they can't seem to get their brains to accept that what actually happened was that the defense played pretty well and the offense collapsed. There's a term for this, "cognitive dissonance". It's painful, but there is a way out: just pretend it happened the way you thought it was going to happen. Deny reality. Viola! Discomfort is gone.

There is one group of people who haven't forgotten, and will never forget, what actually happened. That's the Broncos 2013 defense.

The problem with the Broncos "leadership voice" is not on the defensive side of the ball. Those remaining players from 2013 are going to welcome Ware, Talib, and Ward as allies in the ongoing fight to gain some respect in an "all QBs all the time" league. Anyone who can stay healthy and bring it on Sunday is going to have all the voice that they need, even if they don't say a single word.

On the offensive side, there is some repair work to be done. There are two levels to the problem. The first is that they were terrible. That's easy; own it and move on. The second level is that they didn't have a functional game plan, strategy, or preparation for the type of game that they actually ended up playing. The Broncos offense was among the madding crowd repeating the mantra "Offense is great; defense is bad."

The Broncos offense knows how to get 35 points out of a bad defense but they don't know how to get 17 points out of a great defense. They got some learnin to do.

Wrong... The offense had to put up points or else. The offense led the team. Once the offense struggled in the SB, it was over. Manning was and is the team leader. Elway's moves on the defensive side with the recent signings is an attempt to shift the balance of the team some, to create a different team identity, one that doesn't rely as much on Manning's performance to win. Clearly the Broncos want to toughen the defensive side up to match up better against the NFC powers. And to do that they want to see a different style of play defensively, one that is more aggressive, particularly in the secondary, also one that will play tough all 4 quarters and not let teams make a last minute run. How many times during the season during the season did we see a late 4th quarter lapse? Remember the Charger game in the playoffs? The Broncos dominate and then it's hold-your-breath as Rivers makes it close, to close for comfort. That's was more than a single player breakdown.

The D ranked 22nd. The O ranked #1, by far. There was to much pressure on the O to perform big.... Elway wants the Broncos to win with 35, 24 and maybe even 17 points. You got to have a solid D to carry a heavier load with lower scoring games. That can give Manning and the O a better shot at finding their footing and shift a game's momentum.

Or..or..the Broncos offense could just protect the football.

The problem with the "Bad defense forced Manning to throw the game" theory is that there is never ever a reason to throw the game in the first half. There are times when forcing a throw is the lesser of two evils but that time is towards THE END OF THE GAME. The risk averse approach is multiplied when you are playing a ball control team that often struggles to score touchdowns. The Seahawks offense never once drove the length of the field and scored a TD against the Broncos.

The disturbing part about the two first half interceptions is that the defensive linemen didn't get quick penetration. They worked the opposing blocker backwards over the course of 1-2 seconds and they did in right in front of Manning where he could see them. For reasons that are difficult to explain, he tried to step up when his blocker was being pushed back, and then he tried to force throws over the linemen even though the throwing lanes were already gone.

These weren't bad luck throws or great defensive plays, they were plays where the QB didn't recognize that the play was already busted and neglected to protect the ball. For whatever reason Manning wasn't seeing the pressure correctly, or his head wasn't right on ball security and risk. Tough to accept but it is what it is.

The 2013 Broncos had two big problems over the course of the season: one was offensive giveaways and the other was major dropouts in defensive performance. Both of these problems seemed well under control through the playoffs but unfortunately the offense relapsed dramatically. Turnovers are almost always fatal in post season competition and three turnovers in the first half--two of them scoring plays--is like setting yourself on fire.

Leggy has weighed in on the offensive balance and line adjustments question (which we aired out pretty thoroughly two days ago). After consultation with his player personnel sources "around the league" the verdict is…

Franklin to left guard, Clark to right tackle, Manny stay home at center.

Here's a logic question for all you offensive posters: The consensus is that Manny was better at center in 2013 than he was at guard in 2012. How do you know he was not just a better all around lineman in 2013, one who could perform better at guard as well?

Last edited by retro-grouch on March 20th, 2014, 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

1. Yes. I read Kravitz a bit {I read Dan Shaugnessy in the Boston Globe a lot more.} Kravitz was a decent columnist {none of these papers compare to the Globe or the Philly Enquirer or the papers back east} but Kravitz wrote that he thought Brady was better than Manning which I didn't like at all and he was also one of the clowns who said Peyton "ought to retire" because of the neck which was proven to be some of the dumbest advice in the history of sports.2. Who is 47 year Denver fan? Manning makes the Broncos one of the 2 or 3 best teams in football the past two years and "America's team" {best TV ratings whenever the Broncos play} and 47 year Denver fan says they need a QB with more arm strength? Nice "insight" 47 year Denver Fan. "Don't call us...........we'll call you!"

Bill Walton wrote:1. Yes. I read Kravitz a bit {I read Dan Shaugnessy in the Boston Globe a lot more.} Kravitz was a decent columnist {none of these papers compare to the Globe or the Philly Enquirer or the papers back east} but Kravitz wrote that he thought Brady was better than Manning which I didn't like at all and he was also one of the clowns who said Peyton "ought to retire" because of the neck which was proven to be some of the dumbest advice in the history of sports.2. Who is 47 year Denver fan? Manning makes the Broncos one of the 2 or 3 best teams in football the past two years and "America's team" {best TV ratings whenever the Broncos play} and 47 year Denver fan says they need a QB with more arm strength? Nice "insight" 47 year Denver Fan. "Don't call us...........we'll call you!"

1. Shaugnessy is an all-time great. I don't think you'll find a mid-market city anywhere with a writer with his talent. Most of our good writers have moved on to ESPN or other bigger outlets. 2. I don't think 47 (it should be 54) year old Fan said anything about Manning's arm strength. I think he refuted some east coast guy.

Personally, I prefer accuracy over arm strength. Peyton's long throws this year were accurate enough for me. But, like all other QB's, Peyton needs more than 2 seconds to make the longer throws.

retro-grouch wrote:Leggy has weighed in on the offensive balance and line adjustments question (which we aired out pretty thoroughly two days ago). After consultation with his player personnel sources "around the league" the verdict is…

Franklin to left guard, Clark to right tackle, Manny stay home at center.

Here's a logic question for all you offensive posters: The consensus is that Manny was better at center in 2013 than he was at guard in 2012. How do you know he was not just a better all around lineman in 2013, one who could perform better at guard as well?

LOL. Read the article, too, and was thinking about posting the link here as well. Yes, it really sinthesized the 140+ posts we had in that discussion. (Which led me to think that maybe Legwold may be a lurker of these forums. Ha!)

You bring up a good question. Maybe Ramirez was a better all-around lineman in 2013. One thing that would support that theory is that there have been other players in the past few years that have improved their play and it seems like the coaching staff is doing a great job in teaching. For example, Knowshon Moreno finally played like many thought he could. It's public record that DRC got coached up. Danny Trevathan, Malik Jackson are players that are fastly becoming quite the pros in the NFL. Maybe 2013 Ramirez is an evolving product of a consistently good coaching staff that brings out the best in each player.

retro-grouch wrote:A number of fans and commentators programmed their view of the Broncos over the course of the season: "Offense is great, defense is bad". I wouldn't be at all surprised if quite a few sportswriters wrote "Broncos Defense Cost Them" columns before the big game.

That POV had its moments--Dallas--but things changed over the course of the playoffs.

Now, they can't seem to get their brains to accept that what actually happened was that the defense played pretty well and the offense collapsed. There's a term for this, "cognitive dissonance". It's painful, but there is a way out: just pretend it happened the way you thought it was going to happen. Deny reality. Viola! Discomfort is gone.

There is one group of people who haven't forgotten, and will never forget, what actually happened. That's the Broncos 2013 defense.

The problem with the Broncos "leadership voice" is not on the defensive side of the ball. Those remaining players from 2013 are going to welcome Ware, Talib, and Ward as allies in the ongoing fight to gain some respect in an "all QBs all the time" league. Anyone who can stay healthy and bring it on Sunday is going to have all the voice that they need, even if they don't say a single word.

On the offensive side, there is some repair work to be done. There are two levels to the problem. The first is that they were terrible. That's easy; own it and move on. The second level is that they didn't have a functional game plan, strategy, or preparation for the type of game that they actually ended up playing. The Broncos offense was among the madding crowd repeating the mantra "Offense is great; defense is bad."

The Broncos offense knows how to get 35 points out of a bad defense but they don't know how to get 17 points out of a great defense. They got some learnin to do.

Wrong... The offense had to put up points or else. The offense led the team. Once the offense struggled in the SB, it was over. Manning was and is the team leader. Elway's moves on the defensive side with the recent signings is an attempt to shift the balance of the team some, to create a different team identity, one that doesn't rely as much on Manning's performance to win. Clearly the Broncos want to toughen the defensive side up to match up better against the NFC powers. And to do that they want to see a different style of play defensively, one that is more aggressive, particularly in the secondary, also one that will play tough all 4 quarters and not let teams make a last minute run. How many times during the season during the season did we see a late 4th quarter lapse? Remember the Charger game in the playoffs? The Broncos dominate and then it's hold-your-breath as Rivers makes it close, to close for comfort. That's was more than a single player breakdown.

The D ranked 22nd. The O ranked #1, by far. There was to much pressure on the O to perform big.... Elway wants the Broncos to win with 35, 24 and maybe even 17 points. You got to have a solid D to carry a heavier load with lower scoring games. That can give Manning and the O a better shot at finding their footing and shift a game's momentum.

Despite the D being ranked as 22nd, there were some around the league (even in the Broncos locker room) that were saying the D actually played better than that number. And we actually saw a better Denver D in the post season. That said, the improvements made with the FAs are in essence replacements: Talib in lieu of DRC, Ware in lieu of Shaun Phillips who is really in lieu of Dumerville. Then we had the two WR moves (keeping Andre Caldwell, Simmons to add since Decker left). So the only one that we're truly adding to the whole scheme of things is the SS, TJ Ward.

LOL. Read the article, too, and was thinking about posting the link here as well. Yes, it really sinthesized the 140+ posts we had in that discussion. (Which led me to think that maybe Legwold may be a lurker of these forums. Ha!)

You bring up a good question. Maybe Ramirez was a better all-around lineman in 2013. One thing that would support that theory is that there have been other players in the past few years that have improved their play and it seems like the coaching staff is doing a great job in teaching. For example, Knowshon Moreno finally played like many thought he could. It's public record that DRC got coached up. Danny Trevathan, Malik Jackson are players that are fastly becoming quite the pros in the NFL. Maybe 2013 Ramirez is an evolving product of a consistently good coaching staff that brings out the best in each player.

The coaching staff under Fox has produced some interesting results with both rookies and veterans. Going to the Superbowl with a third string center and a backup left tackle is not exactly page one of the manual. Both of them were more or less loose change in the personnel pool in recent years.

When you consider the fact that teams like the Bears and the Steelers have O line problems spanning years, it's impressive.

So many backups last season… And the O line was playing with so many injuries at the end of 2012. I know that's part of the game but I'd love to see what these guys are like with a few more cylinders firing.

BrooklynBronco wrote:I think we need to address PM's arm strength. He doesn't have the zip to throw against a fast defense. Not a hater it's just age and nerve damage.

And you would bring in who to replace him? Mike Vick?

Don't say the Big O. It's not his time, at least not yet.

Despite the debacle against Seattle, I'm not going to forget the greatest regular season performance of a QB of ALL-TIME, including a couple of great games in the playoffs as well. Ask the Patriots what they think of Peyton's arm strength after he put up 400 yards on them.

The biggest problem in the Super Bowl, besides horrific execution like the bad snap and a mediocre game plan, was the fact Seattle was able to drop 7 people in coverage and STILL collapse the pocket. You're not going to win if that's the case. Period.

I truly think a deeper problem may lie a great deal into the leadership role as well as any football execution.

Name one player or coach that showed any leadership or dedication to giving their very best effort in the Super Bowl for at least 1 Qtr let alone 4 Qtrs. I can't think of any can you?

You know you say what about the Patriots but that was a cakewalk much like the Chargers game. A bigger test would have been the Colts or even KC. The Bronco team of the last 2 years were very dominating in their division and the AFC division in general but still had struggles that held them back. Everything worked out to Denvers advantage the last 2 years and yet they still didn't even show up to their own "business trip" when it counted.