Oh, and Teuchter, thank you for your salute to Allende and Víctor Jara. I appreciate it, because at the time I was as left-wing as can be. With the benefit of hindsight, however, I wonder what would have happened if Allende had not been ousted by the military. I’m sorry to have to say this, but seeing the stuff some of my former comrades are made of, I’m kind of glad he was; otherwise, I would probably feel guilty of having been an accomplice to tyranny and stupidity.

I’m an atheist, and I know what I mean by that. If somebody says they are a catholic who has no problem with abortion and divorce, I accept that they are a catholic who has no problem with abortion and divorce. I don’t feel the need to redefine the person.

Some other time, I would like to discuss what you mean about Allende. I can’t believe you mean Allende could have been worse than Pinochet, but regretably, I’m not in a position to get into that discussion just now. I’m going to have to get some sleep and go back to trying to make a living. As an American, I feel great shame for foisting Pinochet on the Chilean people.

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“I am one of the few people I know who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror.” Sam Harris October 17, 2005

I’m an atheist, and I know what I mean by that. If somebody says they are a catholic who has no problem with abortion and divorce, I accept that they are a catholic who has no problem with abortion and divorce. I don’t feel the need to redefine the person.

Again, it’s not that simple. If I told you I’m a Chilean, but could not produce my passport, would you say that by not believing me you are somehow “redefining” me? People are what they are, not what they think they are. A Christian is someone who believes Jesus resurrected; a Catholic is someone who also believes in transubstantiation. Someone who merely believes we should be “nice” to each other is just that: someone who believes we should be “nice” to each other.

teuchter - 21 January 2009 12:10 AM

Some other time, I would like to discuss what you mean about Allende. I can’t believe you mean Allende could have been worse than Pinochet, but regretably, I’m not in a position to get into that discussion just now. I’m going to have to get some sleep and go back to trying to make a living. As an American, I feel great shame for foisting Pinochet on the Chilean people.

I agree this is a subject for another thread. But briefly, I would say that, of course, I cannot know what would have happened if Allende had not been ousted. But judging from the experience of other socialist countries, my guess is it would probably have been worse than Pinochet. And you need not feel guilty about foisting Pinochet on us; being an American does not mean you agree with your goverment’s foreign policy.

I’m astonished that people who participate on this forum know so little about the actual situation concerning the radical Muslims and thier intentions . You don’t even realize that Islamists ( yes I said Islamists ) have already declared war against the West ; that is Europe and the free world.

It is obvious from the way you respond to a post like airy spirit’s that you really don’t understand. Do you know what is missing here ? PERSPECTIVE is missing ! Perspective comes when we climb the mountain of knowledge and we are able to look at a scene as a whole- not just as some little ( or even big ) incident , but the WHOLE thing. It is the best lesson ever, because you can fit the peices together and know it for what it really is. The old saying “so close to the forest you can’t see the trees” applies very well here.

Here we go again - you can’t wait to respond with a knee-jerk reaction that argues whether the post is valid or not . Why don’t you critics check out this Muslim- West situation before you hammer a poster as if he/she JUST HAS to be wrong ? But that would spoil your fun wouldn’t it ?
Then there’s always someone who starts throwing the past in our faces. When will people wake up ? The person who uses the past as a comparisn is way off the mark, and is using a last-ditch idea to make his case, and he is one big failure because it is NOW that we have to deal with troubles and threats in life. They are the things that matter. So what if Christians committed atrocities in the Middle ages - how is THAT going to have any bearing on what they are doing NOW ? What blatant stupidity . But that always happens. Also there’s always some Muslim apologists who thinks he’s being a hero; a hero with a heart of gold, someone who leaps to the defence of what he/she imagines is an underdog . Hurray, hurray-radicals who behave barbaricly and violate human rights aren’t so bad - they are ...what was it someone said here ? “Delightful people ” !

Now comes the big scolding : Dee, you are SO WRONG, you are wrong to put all Muslims down and be so unfair that way . “All Muslims aren’t bad !” “You are wrong to generalize that way !” ETC. What you haven’t yet realized is that I DO NOT BLAME ALL MUSLIMS—for Gods sake NO ! Nobody here had to tell me it is not right to accuse all Muslims for things that only SOME of them mean trouble. (So far, that is .) I’ve thought that way all along.

I am referring to the smaller population of Muslims who are hell-bent on destroying us. Not true about them ? Okay, don’t take my word for it—just get more interested and check out the facts. Tune in; tune in like I have done for years, and THEN speak up about it .

By the way , I just read an article today by Melanie Phillips (you don’t even know who she is, I’ll bet ) that presents a good case ;ONE case, for what I’m talking about . “Google’ is best ;it seems to work better for this website. : Melanie Phillips “Britain Surrenders” .

You know how termites eat through a building—- nibbling one bite after the other…what seems to be a tiny , harmless critter soon chews up a whole building . So it is happening with the Muslim strategy . Few realize what is happening, and when a destructve force starts to come on you and yours ..I can hear it now : “What happened ?? Why are we being abused ( or pick a another word if suits you better ) WHY do they hate us ?????”

I hate to say this , but ignorance is swarming around this subject like so many gleeful hornets.

I’m astonished that people who participate on this forum know so little about the actual situation concerning the radical Muslims and thier intentions .

Do tell us ignorant hicks more about the horrible situation in the European nation of Muldivia, Dee.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

You don’t even realize that Islamists ( yes I said Islamists ) have already declared war against the West ; that is Europe and the free world.

Wow, you are the ONLY person here who recognizes the dangers from radical Islam. I am all ears, sweetheart.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

It is obvious from the way you respond to a post like airy spirit’s that you really don’t understand.

I understand perfectly. I understand that collective punishment for individual crimes is EXACTLY the sort of evil that irrational, “faith-based” belief systems engage in. I understand that rational, civilized citizens of modern, secular societies abhore the sort of tribal, primitive bloodlust that the likes of you and arildno engage in.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

Do you know what is missing here ? PERSPECTIVE is missing ! Perspective comes when we climb the mountain of knowledge and we are able to look at a scene as a whole- not just as some little ( or even big ) incident , but the WHOLE thing.

HERE’S your perspective, genius—an individual engaged in theft and/or vandalism of a rare book. It is a crime of theft, of property damage and vandalism, and cultural destruction. This gentleman, unfortunately, is not the first person to do such a thing, nor is he the last. Anyone who works in an archive, a research library, or a historical society knows that unfortunately this is one of the hazards of the profession. Generally, when such events occur, nobody calls for expelling tens of millions of other people from their homes. Because, generally, most people aren’t knee-jerk hateful idiots like you.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

It is the best lesson ever, because you can fit the peices together and know it for what it really is. The old saying “so close to the forest you can’t see the trees” applies very well here.

Sometimes, Dee, there is no forest. And sometimes an individual act by an individual is simply that.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

Here we go again - you can’t wait to respond with a knee-jerk reaction that argues whether the post is valid or not . Why don’t you critics check out this Muslim- West situation before you hammer a poster as if he/she JUST HAS to be wrong ? But that would spoil your fun wouldn’t it ?

I’m not having fun—frankly, I get so fucking tired of bigots like you and arildno using atheism as a cover for your idiotic, lowest-common-denominator hatred that I sometimes wonder if being on this message board is even worth it. Fortunately, most of the other people here are intelligent, insightful, and provocative, and I generally feel I’m not wasting my time.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

Then there’s always someone who starts throwing the past in our faces. When will people wake up ? The person who uses the past as a comparisn is way off the mark, and is using a last-ditch idea to make his case, and he is one big failure because it is NOW that we have to deal with troubles and threats in life. They are the things that matter. So what if Christians committed atrocities in the Middle ages - how is THAT going to have any bearing on what they are doing NOW ? What blatant stupidity . But that always happens. Also there’s always some Muslim apologists who thinks he’s being a hero; a hero with a heart of gold, someone who leaps to the defence of what he/she imagines is an underdog . Hurray, hurray-radicals who behave barbaricly and violate human rights aren’t so bad - they are ...what was it someone said here ? “Delightful people ” !

Nobody said Islamists are “delightful people” you liar.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

Now comes the big scolding : Dee, you are SO WRONG, you are wrong to put all Muslims down and be so unfair that way . “All Muslims aren’t bad !” “You are wrong to generalize that way !” ETC. What you haven’t yet realized is that I DO NOT BLAME ALL MUSLIMS—for Gods sake NO ! Nobody here had to tell me it is not right to accuse all Muslims for things that only SOME of them mean trouble. (So far, that is .) I’ve thought that way all along.

And yet you agree that every single Muslim should be kicked out of Europe because of one single act of vandalism. You’re so dumb you can’t even keep your lies straight.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

I am referring to the smaller population of Muslims who are hell-bent on destroying us. Not true about them ? Okay, don’t take my word for it—just get more interested and check out the facts. Tune in; tune in like I have done for years, and THEN speak up about it .

And, NOW you qualify your statement. And now you want to pat yourself on the back because you’ve won your own little strawman argument. Congratulations, Einstein—now, tell me more about the dire situation in Muldivia.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

By the way , I just read an article today by Melanie Phillips (you don’t even know who she is, I’ll bet ) that presents a good case ;ONE case, for what I’m talking about . “Google’ is best ;it seems to work better for this website. : Melanie Phillips “Britain Surrenders” .

Good case for WHAT? You can barely articulate a sentence, let alone a cohesive strategy for dealing with radical Islamic groups and countering their influence within the larger Muslim community in Britain, here, or anywhere else. I have no idea what “case” you’re making, and I very much doubt that you do, either.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

You know how termites eat through a building—- nibbling one bite after the other…what seems to be a tiny , harmless critter soon chews up a whole building . So it is happening with the Muslim strategy . Few realize what is happening, and when a destructve force starts to come on you and yours ..I can hear it now : “What happened ?? Why are we being abused ( or pick a another word if suits you better ) WHY do they hate us ?????”

I’ve always found that the best, most rational, people win arguments by comparing a group of human beings to vermin and/or other subhuman creatures. Oh wait—that’s actually what terrible, evil, vile people do. My bad.

Dee - 21 January 2009 06:53 AM

I hate to say this , but ignorance is swarming around this subject like so many gleeful hornets.

Teuchter, calm down. I’m nor trying to be obnoxious (I might inadvertently be, but it’s not my intention).
You said “Well, it turns out that there are a number of Muslims who are, save their religious views, perfectly rational and delightful people, just like with Christians”. I’m only arguing that being perfectly delightful and being religious are incompatible. Some people call themselves Christian or Muslim, and are very nice indeeed; in every single case I’ve met, they are sui generis believers. In fact, they don’t believe what they should believe in order to call themselves Christians or Muslims. Some of my friends call themselves Christian, but do not believe in the resurrection, for instance. Are they really Christians? I don’t think so. Some call themselves Catholic, but have no rpoblem with divorce or abortion. Are they really Catholic? Of course not. Some Muslims I know would never think of me as a contemptible unbeliever who deserves to die; are they really Muslims? No, they are not, because they reject the teachings of their Holy Book.
So, if someone declares him/herself to be a Muslim, they should automatically be denied entry to a non-Muslim country, since their beliefs imply they might incur in or condone violence against non-Muslims.

Welcome to the forum Piero,

Your reasoning on this issue is flawless and IMO you have bested Teuchter which isn’t an easy thing to do as he is a fine, decent, smart, sweet-smelling and well-scrubbed citizen.

I have seen Christopher Hitchens press the same point in countless debates: ‘Do you really believe in a virgin birth?’, ‘What does the Hadith say about the punishment for apostasy?’
And none of these Vaseline-coated, slimy, religious cowards will give him a straight answer.

We must press the religious on their doctrines and call them on it. Relentlessly.

If you are a Muslim you do not question Mohammed’s proclamations and are therefore a barbarian unfit to live in a civil society. If you question this lying bastard’s words (of course he never heard any voices in his head from some arch-angel; the fucker just made it up) then you are not a Muslim.

No amount of multi-cultural twisting and apologetical turning can get you out of this jam.

Your reasoning on this issue is flawless and IMO you have bested Teuchter which isn’t an easy thing to do as he is a fine, decent, smart, sweet-smelling and well-scrubbed citizen.

I have seen Christopher Hitchens press the same point in countless debates: ‘Do you really believe in a virgin birth?’, ‘What does the Hadith say about the punishment for apostasy?’
And none of these Vaseline-coated, slimy, religious cowards will give him a straight answer.

We must press the religious on their doctrines and call them on it. Relentlessly.

If you are a Muslim you do not question Mohammed’s proclamations and are therefore a barbarian unfit to live in a civil society. If you question this lying bastard’s words (of course he never heard any voices in his head from some arch-angel; the fucker just made it up) then you are not a Muslim.

No amount of multi-cultural twisting and apologetical turning can get you out of this jam.

It isn’t “multi-cultural twisting” to point out that human beings identify themselves in ways which are often logically inconsistent and less than completely literal. You are also ignoring that there are real, and substantive, cultural and social factors to consider in group identity. Many Jews do not believe that Abraham was a real person who made a covenant with Yahweh thousands of years ago; nor do all Jews believe that they have a divine right to all of Palestine. Yet, there are many other cultural and social factors which reinforce their very real self-identification as “Jews” and only a pedantic asshole would waste time and effort challenging them for it.

Admittedly, Jews are an ethnic and cultural group as well as adherents to a religion—Judaism, unlike Christianity and Islam, is not a proselytizing, universal religion.

Nevertheless, in many countries where Islam has been the dominant religion for a long time, it is interwoven into the larger social and cultural fabric. A person raised in a “Muslim society” is going to be influenced by and informed by that society regardless of how much or how little he/she explicitly accepts the core tenets of the faith.

Because of that, each individual has a particular relationship to the culture he/she lives in, and therefore develops his/her own interpretation of what it “means” to be a member of the group.

This does not imply that we must be unfailingly deferential to such identifications or unwilling to challenge them, as you say. But your “point” seems to me to be swatting flies with a RPG. Hey—a lot of believers don’t actually “belive” the core tenets of their faith. Yeah, we knew that. Move on.

Hello, Sander, and thank you for your welcome.
What this discussion boils down to is: should intolerance be tolerated? I think it should not, lest our democratic societies become unmanageable.
It is true that people often define themselves wrongly, so it is conceivable that someone might believe he/she is a Muslim while in fact rejecting the doctrines that would make him/her one. So I propose the following test: everybody who wants to obtain entry to a democratic country should answer the following question, in writing and signed:

Do you believe that someone who does not share your religious faith might be more deserving of respect that yourself?

If the answer is NO, that person should be denied entry. It’s that simple.
Cheers.

You are also ignoring that there are real, and substantive, cultural and social factors to consider in group identity.
...each individual has a particular relationship to the culture he/she lives in, and therefore develops his/her own interpretation of what it “means” to be a member of the group.

Bigredfutbol, as you may or may not know, 30% of British muslims approved of the suicide bombings in London. Care to explain that in the light of the quotation above?

You are also ignoring that there are real, and substantive, cultural and social factors to consider in group identity.
...each individual has a particular relationship to the culture he/she lives in, and therefore develops his/her own interpretation of what it “means” to be a member of the group.

Bigredfutbol, as you may or may not know, 30% of British muslims approved of the suicide bombings in London. Care to explain that in the light of the quotation above?

No I don’t care to explain that since I am not responsible for how other people respond to a poll question.

If you want to live in the fantasy that you’re somehow more attuned to the threat that irrational faith and Islamic fanaticism poses to modern secular democracy than I am, feel free to do so. The original post it this thread proposed that millions of Muslims be kicked out of Europe without regard for individual guilt or citizenship. Airy Spirit gave no indication that she only meant RADICAL Muslims, or fundamentalists, or sincere believers, or immigrants. As far as her original post goes, the secular Muslims of Bosnia and Albania—who are indigenous Europeans—were not to be excepted. I merely pointed out how absurd and irrational such a response is. If you have a problem with that, I can’t help you.

Many Jews do not believe that Abraham was a real person who made a covenant with Yahweh thousands of years ago; nor do all Jews believe that they have a divine right to all of Palestine.

Doesn’t that just make them double fucked up? First they believe in magic and they kill for that magic, yet they say that the magic lies..

Admittedly, Jews are an ethnic and cultural group as well as adherents to a religion—Judaism, unlike Christianity and Islam, is not a proselytizing, universal religion.

Isn’t that because only the Jews are gods people? God will expand them and only them across the world destroying anyone who gets in their way, and when it’s time, establish his kingdom on earth with the Jews as his SS.

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Why is there Something instead of Nothing: No reason or ever knowable reason.

Many Jews do not believe that Abraham was a real person who made a covenant with Yahweh thousands of years ago; nor do all Jews believe that they have a divine right to all of Palestine.

Doesn’t that just make them double fucked up? First they believe in magic and they kill for that magic, yet they say that the magic lies..

Admittedly, Jews are an ethnic and cultural group as well as adherents to a religion—Judaism, unlike Christianity and Islam, is not a proselytizing, universal religion.

Isn’t that because only the Jews are gods people? God will expand them and only them across the world destroying anyone who gets in their way, and when it’s time, establish his kingdom on earth with the Jews as his SS.

Oh, ALL the Jews are responsible now? Wonderful. Hey, Rabbi Kahane was from Brooklyn—let’s kick all Jews out of the USA.

One nice thing about thread like this is that we find out what some of you really think.

You are also ignoring that there are real, and substantive, cultural and social factors to consider in group identity.
...each individual has a particular relationship to the culture he/she lives in, and therefore develops his/her own interpretation of what it “means” to be a member of the group.

Bigredfutbol, as you may or may not know, 30% of British muslims approved of the suicide bombings in London. Care to explain that in the light of the quotation above?

Let me take a stab. 70% of British Muslims do NOT approve of such bombings.

And of the 30%, is that entirely religious, or is that at least partially political, or did anyone bother to ask?

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“I am one of the few people I know who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror.” Sam Harris October 17, 2005