Blake_T wrote:the difficulty in timing occurs because:-the forearm/elbow must be relaxed at the beginning of the extension but should be firm/strong near the end of the extension.-the wrist/hand must be relaxed at the beginning of the extension but should be firm/strong near the end of the extension (and subsequent release of the disc).

I was talking to a co-worker of mine last week, he doesn't throw but he's been doing Shotokan Karate for 10 years or so. I was describing to him part of the throw I was trying to get, and he was showing me the basics of a punch, where the arm and fist are relaxed from the beginning and through the twist, with the goal being to flex/clench everything at the very end, what he called the "focus".

I tried applying this in the field, staying loose until the extension and then clenching down with the whole arm and fist at the point where I was backhanding the little person, and not only did I realize the "grip it like a motherfucker" part, but timing the acceleration felt like it was taking care of itself.

It also felt like it would take a few thousand repetitions before it felt natural, but it felt like a glimpse of the relaxed/strong thing. I don't know if that's helpful or not, but it was notable in this context.

This is indeed exactly the same as trying to harness your body's maximum potential in martial arts, and in many other sports too. Swinging a baseball bat or golf club, crushing an ace in tennis (I love those!), spiking hard in volleyball, kicking a field goal or punting with hang time over 5 seconds, etc., all have the same philosophies.

This is making me think about wanting to do a basic physical model of the backhand disc golf throw, in addition to the stuff I've already done on disc flight (I still need to make the flight simulator run properly, and give graphical output, but it is indeed moving forward). It should be possible to make a toy throwing model and play with all the parameters to see how different timing changes affect the outcome of the throw. Also to optimize where, when, and how force needs to be applied from different muscle groups. Wouldn't it be cool to have a sort of java-based model, with graphical animation, and parameters that one could adjust and see the results as they change this or that timing or force? One could even target specific areas of muscle development, strength, and kinetic training that will achieve optimal throws. Well, that's ambitious, but something that I could make over the long run. I suppose this is what people do in money sports, where they can afford to hire somebody like me to do this stuff full-time (that would be fun!).

JHern wrote:JR, the Youtube video is great. Is there any way you can post the movie file itself, as AVI or similar? It would be nice to be able to play with this video more than the youtube toggles allow.

JHern wrote:JR, the Youtube video is great. Is there any way you can post the movie file itself, as AVI or similar? It would be nice to be able to play with this video more than the youtube toggles allow.

Tali Open on DVD shall be released fairly soon if there are no snags. I'm trying to put together a good enough recording setup right now so that the final missing piece English commentary can commence.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

Blake_T wrote:stand 8-10' back and perform stationary right pec drills that begin with a 90 degree turn of the right shoulder (turning you from 180 degrees away to 90 degrees away) and a slight lean/weight shift over your pivot foot. the chop will happen then. your goal is to throw full power at the square.

Just to clarify. Are you are suggesting that the weight stays over the pivot foot the entire time OR just a regular small weight shift from over the back foot to over the front/pivot foot?

JHern wrote:.. But we rarely ever talk about the "feel" of the throw, and how to develop the proper feel and rhythm on their own terms.

You can watch Avery all day, and you're still not going to know what it feels like to him. You can see his elbow stop (yeah, it stops pointing more forward from his torso than sideway), you can see the disc close to the pec, etc.. And you could go out in a field and put your body into exactly the same positions as he does going in sequence through the throw, but your throw will probably be total crap.

Two parts.

1) I agree, that feel is important, but without talking about what the proper throwing mechanics are, you will have no idea as to what feel is relevant. Heck everybody here can talk about how it feels when they throw. But to be honest Im only interested in the "feel" that takes me to the next level, and only how it is coupled to body mechanics. Ive been back and forth over the 400-425 plateau this last season. The feel I try to focus on when hitting it well:1) easy start2) keep hand on the side of the disc that is furthest from me as long as possible3) try to pull forward into my elbowjoint

I went out today with the intent of shooting some clips (to illustrate my 1-3 list), but I only got some of my first shots, because the camera quit on me in the cold. They can be seen in the vid section. I wasnt really hitting it well though, so they are probably not really indicative of anything at all. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16227

2)

you could go out in a field and put your body into exactly the same positions as he does going in sequence through the throw, but your throw will probably be total crap.

If you did that your throw would bomb. People think they get in the same positions, but when you film them, you see that it doesnt look anything like Averys throw,because they arent getting in the same positions.

hang up a bed-sheet or something in the garage. draw a 1' x 1' square on it. stand 8-10' back and perform stationary right pec drills that begin with a 90 degree turn of the right shoulder (turning you from 180 degrees away to 90 degrees away) and a slight lean/weight shift over your pivot foot. the chop will happen then. your goal is to throw full power at the square. DO NOT physically pull at all until you have visual contact and you can feel things directed down the line towards the square.

the key here is not trying to throw hard at all until after the disc passes beyond your body towards the target. at that point it is already "into the chop".

DO NOT try to have a massive follow through. let a natural follow through happen.

DO NOT try to force the elbow to straighten all the way. chances are you'll find greater success when the elbow stays slightly bent.

start out relaxed and try to feel the timing and flow of the chop and the wrist extension near the hit.

if you are doing this correctly you will get MORE accurate the harder you try to throw. this is wholly dependent upon not trying to throw hard until the right time.

I tried this drill today and really felt the pause (elbow chop) that came because of having to wait that extra moment before starting the pull. When I managed to keep my first rotation slow and start the pull at the moment of visual contact it felt like the disc was getting ripped out of my hand (yay!) and was very accurate. Other times I was shooting way past the target (to the left, I'm a lefty) and I wasn't able to debug it very well. I think most of those times I was starting the pull to early and because I didn't have enough on it, I was able to hold onto it past the ideal ripping point. I will have to try to the drill a bunch more to really put my finger on the failure mode(s) that I am sometimes experiencing.

Anyway, great drill Blake! I have to say that was the first time I ever felt like I was able to get some decent power behind that twisting front-peck drill shot. It made me realize how early I was starting my pull in the past when working on front-peck drills. AND that was most definitely the first time that experienced an elbow chop and saw a clear distinction between the motion of turning my body from the reach/twist back and the motion of the pull. In the past is was all just one big mess.

you could go out in a field and put your body into exactly the same positions as he does going in sequence through the throw, but your throw will probably be total crap.

If you did that your throw would bomb. People think they get in the same positions, but when you film them, you see that it doesnt look anything like Averys throw,because they arent getting in the same positions.

I disagree. The point is that it is more than position, it is where the effort going into the throw is coming from.

Maybe I can put this in physics-speak to illustrate what I mean in a more precise way. Power is work performed per unit time. Work is the amount of energy we can give to the disc in performing the throw. Clearly, we want to get the most work out of the throwing motion as possible. Now, an increment of work dW is the scalar product of force F and increment in position dr, or,

dW=F.dr

Work is a scalar, so I use italics, while force and position are vectors, denoted in bold. Clearly, there are two parts here. You can take the disc through the same set of positions, through increments of motion dr, but if F is not optimally applied to the various increments of position changes, then you get less total work, and less power.

So what I meant by "feel" is then equated with what I mean here by "force" and particularly where and how "force" is applied to the disc's motion. And force is not simple in this case, either. You can technically apply force to a lot of the motions of a backhand throw using different proportions of power from a variety of totally distinct muscle groups, even when going through the exact same positions. Some muscle groups are very ineffective, while others are very powerful.

That being said, if you've never been in a strong-arm trap like me or some of the other guys who posted their frustrations on this thread, then you're: 1) fortunate to have missed out on that rather unpleasant experience and 2) probably not going to understand why I'm making a big deal out of this. In fact, not much of this discussion will matter to you at all. And if what I've discovered (which I believe has helped me personally break well through the 300' barrier) can be shared with others who I think are in a similar situation, and this can also help them get over the hump, then why would you want to say that what I'm talking about by emphasizing feel (at least for the time being, to overcome strong-arming) is wrong, or that they shouldn't care about the "feel" of the throw?

Finally, I never said position isn't important. My point is that you can't do this well just by considering position alone.

No, I have definitly been there. I have an old thread on the vid critique section, where I with around half a year intervals posted vid-clips, beginning shortly after I started playing. (Within the first year I think) I used to throw with nice weight back too

But my point is that Avery's (or any other good pro) body positionion is not copieable, unless you also generate power in the right places at the right time. This is also why Im on the fence about seeing all drives in slo-mo. When seeing a drive in slowmo its hard to see the timing/rythem involved. You can see if the disc comes close to the pec and whatnot, but thats about it.

rehder wrote:But my point is that Avery's (or any other good pro) body positionion is not copieable, unless you also generate power in the right places at the right time.

I still disagree, position does not determine power. The proof is above.

rehder wrote:This is also why Im on the fence about seeing all drives in slo-mo. When seeing a drive in slowmo its hard to see the timing/rythem involved. You can see if the disc comes close to the pec and whatnot, but thats about it.

Now this I definitely agree with, because if you combine timing/rhythm and position, then force/work/power are indeed fully determined.

Here's the proof. Before we had,

dW=F.dr

Position r is only one side of the coin. Given position alone, you can't describe the throw. Now add timing, so you have r as a function of time t, or r(t). Now you can use,

F=m.a=m.r''

where a=r'' is the acceleration, or second time derivative of position. Now put,

dW=m.r''.dr

and all of a sudden every increment of work is uniquely determined by the acceleration r'' and increment in position dr (assuming we know the relevant value of mass, m).

rehder wrote:I think we are basically agreeing here, but just talking semantics.

Sort of. There is a difference between achieving positions and achieving positions with particular timing. Clearly you need both to reproduce somebody's throw and power.

I guess my point is also still that force is something that is felt more than perceived by the thrower themselves (the same can be said of rhythm). You don't really see your body parts accelerate, per se. While you're conscious of the positions you go through, the rate of these motions are more about feel, because they ultimately come from inside your body, in your muscles.

Last edited by JHern on Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

I think this vid illustrates very well Blake_T's Swedish vs American throwing styles. the first thrower is Jesper Lundmark and the second is also a European (but younger) Oscar Stenfelt. Stenfelt looks a lot like Avery Jenkins in his throwing form.