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I think this is where internet conversation breaks down. What you just said *sounds* generally right, but from experience I tend to wait and see since the vast majority of people who say they're doing tanren of some sort appear to be mostly arms when I get a chance to see in person. Not to judge or imply anything; only saying that IME this is something to watch out for. Keith made a good comment about taking out the slack... how people take out the slack, etc., is important here.
I've seen a good axeman cut a number of paper-thin shavings off the end of a green log, but I've never seen a western sword-enthusiast do the same thing.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Sorry Mike, I checked out of this guy for a minnute. I don't know if I would go as far as to say the lighter suburito are good for tanren, but I do like them for form. I think many of the exercises we are discussing are probably better with a lighter suburito, rather than the heavier version. I tend to like the heavier suburito for centering and body unification; I like the excellerated fatigue from the heavier weapon and the reliance on body structure. We have several students strong enough to cheat with a lighter weapon who get fatigued with a heavier one. We often fatigue ourselves then move to a lighter weapon for training... I just heard a story about a class who's students were instructed to hold kamae for 30 minutes...ouch. That's fatigue.

Oh, and I am a total fan of the lumberjack games on ESPN 10 at 3:00 AM... Those guys (and gals) are serious and it makes me nausious to see them swing razorsharp axes inches from their legs. Not to mention wield a chain saw driven by a motorcycle engine...

I don't know if I would go as far as to say the lighter suburito are good for tanren, but I do like them for form. I think many of the exercises we are discussing are probably better with a lighter suburito, rather than the heavier version. I tend to like the heavier suburito for centering and body unification; I like the excellerated fatigue from the heavier weapon and the reliance on body structure. We have several students strong enough to cheat with a lighter weapon who get fatigued with a heavier one. We often fatigue ourselves then move to a lighter weapon for training... I just heard a story about a class who's students were instructed to hold kamae for 30 minutes...ouch. That's fatigue.

Hi Jon:

My personal opinion is that learning to move with ki/kokyu skills is hard to do because it represents (when done fully and correctly) a radical change in the way a body moves on a couple of fronts. So first, IMO, a person has to be shown how to do it with no weapon and the basics have to be ingrained. Once the basics are ingrained in moving with ki/kokyu/hara then it's time to begin to add a little weight and let the newly-developed (developing) ki and kokyu strengths be trained a bit more, then a bit more than that, and so on.

To jump too quickly to "use internal strength" on a too-heavy suburito or in "doing martial applications" is pretty much one of those steps too far, too soon, for obvious reasons. In my experience, when I've met someone who jumped too quickly into heavy suburi or "doing martial applications" the part that suffers is the development of internal strength.

If you think about it, it's the same reason why weight-lifting is admonished against... it's training that is counter-productive to that hard-to-do real change-over into real internal strength. Don't get me wrong, Jon... I'm not admonishing anything you're doing, but simply stating a point of view that I have.

My personal opinion is that learning to move with ki/kokyu skills is hard to do because it represents (when done fully and correctly) a radical change in the way a body moves on a couple of fronts. So first, IMO, a person has to be shown how to do it with no weapon and the basics have to be ingrained. Once the basics are ingrained in moving with ki/kokyu/hara then it's time to begin to add a little weight and let the newly-developed (developing) ki and kokyu strengths be trained a bit more, then a bit more than that, and so on.

To jump too quickly to "use internal strength" on a too-heavy suburito or in "doing martial applications" is pretty much one of those steps too far, too soon, for obvious reasons. In my experience, when I've met someone who jumped too quickly into heavy suburi or "doing martial applications" the part that suffers is the development of internal strength.

If you think about it, it's the same reason why weight-lifting is admonished against... it's training that is counter-productive to that hard-to-do real change-over into real internal strength. Don't get me wrong, Jon... I'm not admonishing anything you're doing, but simply stating a point of view that I have.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike, I agree with you that we need to know what we are doing to begin with... I was talking about weapons as a development tool and maybe I was not clear on the comptetency level in which we engage in suburito training; it is important to have some groundwork laid down before getting in over your head. I think that a advocation of basic understanding of movement prior to intensifying training is a good piece of advice. To me, this would be a separartion between learning the movement and training. I would certainly advocate learning what you are supposed to do before training in that action...

Its interesting also that you bring up trouble with students who jump prematurely into technique... I recently had a conversation of a similar nature and I think there is some solid argument to advocate a stronger awareness training program prior to getting into technique...

Its interesting also that you bring up trouble with students who jump prematurely into technique... I recently had a conversation of a similar nature and I think there is some solid argument to advocate a stronger awareness training program prior to getting into technique...

Hi Jon:

As I said, internal strength skills require learning how to do them and then they take some development and conditioning. If you're trying to change the mode of movement over to more than just some coarse jin, but also into the ki, hara, etc., full-blown usage of internal strength, you have to convince the body to re-pattern itself. Any practice which is counter-productive to that re-patterning is just time wasted. So a person doing suburi with normal strength (even worse with a heavy suburito), weight lifting using normal strength mode, application of complex (or even simple, I guess) techniques (normal strength and prior training in those techniques can't help but kick in), and so on, is wasting time. Is swinging a moderately heavy suburito "tanren"? Not really.

BTW, if there's any one exercise in Aikido that is excellent for repetitive i.s./tanren development, it's suburi, IMO. Great exercise for ki, kokyu, hara, breathing. All the worries about angles, wavering tips, etc., are good, but my suggestion would be to forget those parts and use the suburi purely for tanren of kokyu/hara, etc.