I saw this claim being brought up several times, but I never saw conclusive evidence for this claim. So my questions are - did Darwin convert to Christianity toward the end of his life, and if so did he die as a creationist? More importantly - why and how does that effect the theory of evolution and why we should believe in it?

Patient_Leech

Stupid topic.

Whatever was going through Darwin (the man's) private head is irrelevant.

This is the kind of annoying crap that religious apologists try to bring up to discredit his ideas, but it does nothing of the sort.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Stupid topic. Some people really believe that Darwin's personal views are important compared to scientific facts. I created this topic so that they can tell us why we should trust Darwins personal views more than those facts. And I want to see basis for the xlaim that Charles died as christian.

@the rest of your post, though.

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCXhBYAeio8

Digi

Rumors of deathbed conversions are insanely popular in our cultural rumor mill, because it allows us to call into question revered figures in any tradition, thus bolstering our own worldview.

I hadn't heard the Darwin one, but I've heard about a dozen others, and Darwin's inclusion is hardly surprising.

The religious crowd isn't solely responsible for this phenomenon, granted. I've actually heard this about religious adherents too (Aquinas, for one). They're just as vacuous. So this isn't a skeptical slap on the wrist to religious people perpetuating these unsubstantiated claims; it's more a slap on the wrist to the practice in general.

In conclusion, this:

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I saw this claim being brought up several times, but I never saw conclusive evidence for this claim.

...provides all the answer you need.

Digi

And to perhaps address your question another way: F*** Darwin's personal views. His contribution to science is why he has a legacy, and those results are verifiable. Musings on his opinion at a specific point in his life are not.

Bentley

Originally posted by Digi
And to perhaps address your question another way: F*** Darwin's personal views. His contribution to science is why he has a legacy, and those results are verifiable. Musings on his opinion at a specific point in his life are not.

But what if Darwin was resurrected the third day after his dead? biscuits

Patient_Leech

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Is there any evidence that Darwin died as Christian?

I hope not! I don't want to see that ape-worshiping heathen in heaven when I get there!

socool8520

Seems like a safe way to play it. lol Know it's crazy talk until the very end, and then convert real quick just in case you were wrong. Genius.

Flyattractor

It is Halloween. We could hold a seance to find out.

socool8520

Seances are not Christian friendly are they?

Flyattractor

Originally posted by socool8520
Seances are not Christian friendly are they?

We could ask Saul....

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Patient_Leech

I hope not! I don't want to see that ape-worshiping heathen in heaven when I get there!
Satan swallowed the "a". Just sayin.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by socool8520
Seances are not Christian friendly are they? Perfect for us Satanists

socool8520

Lol

Digi

Originally posted by socool8520
Seems like a safe way to play it. lol Know it's crazy talk until the very end, and then convert real quick just in case you were wrong. Genius.

I realize this post is likely with tongue in cheek, but I've seen it used seriously. It seems disingenuous, and reveals more about the person saying it than any historical figure they're talking about, as though to them, faking belief or doing it "just in case" to make sure they get to heaven is a valid, moral goal. I'd like to think that if their God does exist, cheap tricks like this wouldn't work on a supposedly omniscient being, and that doesn't even dig into how flatly evil and self-serving it seems to me.

Most people realize this whether they admit it or not, though, which is further reason to ignore claims of deathbed conversion.

SamZED

I think it was either Dakwins or Harris who said that he'll request a recorder by his bed to prevent rumours of last minute revelations because it's getting really annoying.

Digi

Originally posted by SamZED
I think it was either Dakwins or Harris who said that he'll request a recorder by his bed to prevent rumours of last minute revelations because it's getting really annoying.

Dawkins, I think. I've seen that crew discuss it a couple times, usually with a bemused tone. Dan Dennett once joked to Dawkins that if he ever fell on hard times, a "sudden conversion" could yield him a huge financial windfall from religious organizations. But whether or not they actually have the recorder, they're familiar with the deathbed nonsense that we allow to spread. I don't doubt we'll see such claims after they die; though, surprisingly, I don't remember any for Hitchens, so maybe that's a good sign (or maybe I just missed them).

socool8520

Originally posted by Digi
I realize this post is likely with tongue in cheek, but I've seen it used seriously. It seems disingenuous, and reveals more about the person saying it than any historical figure they're talking about, as though to them, faking belief or doing it "just in case" to make sure they get to heaven is a valid, moral goal. I'd like to think that if their God does exist, cheap tricks like this wouldn't work on a supposedly omniscient being, and that doesn't even dig into how flatly evil and self-serving it seems to me.

Most people realize this whether they admit it or not, though, which is further reason to ignore claims of deathbed conversion.

yeah, it was definitely in jest. I agree, you are a hypocrite and if the Judgement scenario were true, you should be seen as such.

Josh_Alexander

And everything rotates on the idea that Creation and Evolution fight each other! What a wrong concept of science.

Patient_Leech

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
And everything rotates on the idea that Creation and Evolution fight each other! What a wrong concept of science.

Yeah, because these are compatible ideas:

1. All the diverse lifeforms appeared as they are in their present form within the last 10,000 years.

2. All the diverse lifeforms evolved from a common ancestor over billions of years.

Right?

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Yeah, because these are compatible ideas:

1. All the diverse lifeforms appeared as they are in their present form within the last 10,000 years.

2. All the diverse lifeforms evolved from a common ancestor over billions of years.

Right?

What?

The 2nd. One.

Patient_Leech

What are you confused about?

They are incompatible claims.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
What are you confused about?

They are incompatible claims.

They are. So what's your point exactly?

socool8520

^ That Creationism and Evolution do not sync up as you suggested

Patient_Leech

Nevermind, wow.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by socool8520
^ That Creationism and Evolution do not sync up as you suggested

And what makes you believe that?

socool8520

Are you serious? For the reasons that Leech just went over. This is the Omniscient argument all over again man.

Digi

Lol. Don't take the bait. Let him make a cogent argument explaining himself before attempting to engage him.

socool8520

We tried that in the Sam Harris thread. He just asks more questions.

It reminds of the David Duchovny scene in Zoolander.

Josh_Alexander

HONESTLY!

I don't understand what you guys mean by Evolution vs Creation.

Creation is the theory that a supreme being created everything.

Evolution is the theory that states that creatures adapt to their environment which results in physical and mental modification in the long term.

Where do this theories collide exactly? That's what i don't understand.

socool8520

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
HONESTLY!

I don't understand what you guys mean by Evolution vs Creation.

Creation is the theory that a supreme being created everything.

Evolution is the theory that states that creatures adapt to their environment which results in physical and mental modification in the long term.

Where do this theories collide exactly? That's what i don't understand.

Timelines for one. Creationism says what 6000 years or so while evolution says billions. That's a huge discrepancy.

If you take the Bible literally it was 6 days.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by socool8520
Timelines for one. Creationism says what 6000 years or so while evolution says billions. That's a huge discrepancy.

If you take the Bible literally it was 6 days.

I'll base my argument on the Christian concept of Creation since it's the one am most familiar with:

God created the Earth in 6 days according to the Genesis.

However, we must analyze. Are 6 days literal? No. Not really.

The bible is a very metaphorical book. Furthermore, if we see it in a Godly perspective, time isn't a thing.

God isn't affected/influenced by time.

For him 14Billion years mean nothing.

Now, i see it this way:

How would you explain a being whose rationality isn't that great that the Earth was created along with everything in 4 billion years?

The first humans weren't even familiar with the concept of time. They only saw the sun going up and down. So how do you expect them to understand that Earth was created in BILLIONS OF YEARS?

Now, where is it stated in the Bible that evolution isn't a thing exactly?

socool8520

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I'll base my argument on the Christian concept of Creation since it's the one am most familiar with:

God created the Earth in 6 days according to the Genesis.

However, we must analyze. Are 6 days literal? No. Not really.

The bible is a very metaphorical book. Furthermore, if we see it in a Godly perspective, time isn't a thing.

God isn't affected/influenced by time.

For him 14Billion years mean nothing.

Now, i see it this way:

How would you explain a being whose rationality isn't that great that the Earth was created along with everything in 4 billion years?

The first humans weren't even familiar with the concept of time. They only saw the sun going up and down. So how do you expect them to understand that Earth was created in BILLIONS OF YEARS?

Now, where is it stated in the Bible that evolution isn't a thing exactly?

We always run back to the "it's not literal, it's a metaphor" if it has been proven bogus by science. If this is just a book of metaphors, then why not just read Aesop's fables and be done with it?

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by socool8520
We always run back to the "it's not literal, it's a metaphor" if it has been proven bogus by science. If this is just a book of metaphors, then why not just read Aesop's fables and be done with it?

You take it as if people from back then had the mental, technological, and rational level as we do.

Try explain a kid about how earth was created in 4 billion years and he won't even understand what a Billion is.

socool8520

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You take it as if people from back then had the mental, technological, and rational level as we do.

Try explain a kid about how earth was created in 4 billion years and he won't even understand what a Billion is.

This is arrogant imo. There were geniuses back then just as there is now. Without going into specifics, you could get a person to understand a longer span of time than six days.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by socool8520
This is arrogant imo. There were geniuses back then just as there is now. Without going into specifics, you could get a person to understand a longer span of time than six days.

Considering they didn't had Carbon 14 testers back then I don't see how they could imagine Billions of years.

Even so, the Bible is clear when saying that 1 day is 1000s of years for God, and 1000s of years is 1 day.

God isn't affected/limited by time. Which makes it obvious that 6 days must not be taken literal.

Arrogance would be to think that an Omnipotent being sees time the way you do.

Digi

So he's subbing "creation" for "creationism"? Lol

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Digi
So he's subbing "creation" for "creationism"? Lol

Do you know what creationism means?

Digi

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Do you know what creationism means?

Not really. I was just searching for platypus porn and stumbled into this thread.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Digi
Not really. I was just searching for platypus porn and stumbled into this thread.

Patient_Leech

*Goes to look up platypus porn...*

Stigma

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I saw this claim being brought up several times, but I never saw conclusive evidence for this claim. So my questions are - did Darwin convert to Christianity toward the end of his life, and if so did he die as a creationist? More importantly - why and how does that effect the theory of evolution and why we should believe in it?
TBH I guess we can go on historical records like his last will, eyewitness testimonies, maybe? I don't know of any of those.

To the second question: this does not effect the truth of Evolution and Creationism.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
*Goes to look up platypus porn...*

Lol. Poor Perry.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Stigma
TBH I guess we can go on historical records like his last will, eyewitness testimonies, maybe? I don't know of any of those.

To the second question: this does not effect the truth of Evolution and Creationism. It seems like a Lady Hope says that Darwin told her that he was a christian, but his Children say otherwise, and claim that Darwin never even met her.

Stigma

Originally posted by socool8520
Timelines for one. Creationism says what 6000 years or so while evolution says billions. That's a huge discrepancy.

If you take the Bible literally it was 6 days.
BTW If I may interject. This is exactly what is the problem with Protestant denominations. They tend to read the Biblle literally exclusively.

Stigma

Originally posted by Ursumeles
It seems like a Lady Hope says that Darwin told her that he was a christian, but his Children say otherwise, and claim that Darwin never even met her.
I see.

Well then....we will probably never know for sure.

Ursumeles

I personally trust his family far more, tbh. Edpecially as Hope only told the story 30 years after Darwin's death, and as Darwin's family was christian.

Josh_Alexander

Well who cares if Darwin died a Christian or not?

It's not like it's gonna change anything. I believe in the Evolution theory although am a Christian.

Why should Evolution fight with Religion? That's being ignorant.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Why should Evolution fight with Religion? That's being ignorant. So ignorant.