This is a forum, it's probably not encouraging if you dismiss peoples concerns because they are "too negative"

Its really just a "half empty" type of thing. You can criticize without being crazy negative. "BLIZZARD FORCES US INTO DAILIES!!! WAHHHH" is negative compared to " I dislike the current daily system, its a huge time sink and not very fun, please change it"

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire

Again, when your whole motivation for this game is gear gear gear, then you become a whiny baby when trying to "give feedback"

And again - My motivation has nothing to do with gear. It has to do with good solid game systems that work to balance the game on as many fronts as possible. Be that with role balance, class balance, and the other core systems in the game that rewards players for playing the game.

Many of the systems in MOP have been focused on DPS. Having many dailies at start will always hurt the Tank and Healing numbers. Thats why it was a mistake from BLizzard. Then we saw features like Brawlers guild - balanced again only around DPS - and high dps. Another reason for majority to the player base to focus on DPS specs. Then we have the upgrade systems that pushes ppl to play just one spec (role) and players that deside to play more than 1 role suffer grately cause they will always be up to 20 ilvls behind. So even players that wanted to play tanks and healers - are in the end forced to play as DPS if they want to take part in the content.

This is just one simple example. It shows the total lack of understanding from Blizzard to maintain good solid core balance to the game. Cause if you do not have good core role balance for PVE content - then the core of the entire game, the part that has made WOW what it is - becomes far worse. And it pushes more and more players away. Even those DPS that Blizzard were trying to add content for when they end up in up to hour long Qs in LFR - just for example.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 01:53 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan

Its really just a "half empty" type of thing. You can criticize without being crazy negative. "BLIZZARD FORCES US INTO DAILIES!!! WAHHHH" is negative compared to " I dislike the current daily system, its a huge time sink and not very fun, please change it"

The critic about the dailies is exactly what it is. Critic. When progress in the game is based on doing one type of content for rewards then the core of what BLizzard said at the start of this expansion is simply not true. They said they wanted to give players more options on how to play. They simply did not.

And so I continue my talk about role balance. Removing tabards for getting rep in dungeons yet again made tanks and healers suffer. Keeping tabards and giving out lower rep gains (just for bosses and max possible gain per day) would have been the TRUE way of giving players options. And for many it would have been more enjoyable way of gaining rep since it at least involves some co-op and social aspects over running solo dailies.

Its really just a "half empty" type of thing. You can criticize without being crazy negative. "BLIZZARD FORCES US INTO DAILIES!!! WAHHHH" is negative compared to " I dislike the current daily system, its a huge time sink and not very fun, please change it"

You are saying that this:

Those that have quit did so for a reason. Some of us actually want the game to improve but Blizzard are just going the totally wrong way about it.

It doesn't take a genius to see the disaster incoming. Just take a quick look over the spells and how gear scales with it. Then look at the healers that were "balanced" based mostly on mana starving in 5.0 and 5.2 that now will have more mana to use the more powerfull spells. Thing is... only some classes have those abilites while others don't.

Best way to go for Blizzard is to revert to the old balanced ilvl and focus on good content. Sadly they can not do it cause the core systems in start of MOP were so bad that they can't make it through this expansion without changing them.

And again - My motivation has nothing to do with gear. It has to do with good solid game systems that work to balance the game on as many fronts as possible. Be that with role balance, class balance, and the other core systems in the game that rewards players for playing the game.

Many of the systems in MOP have been focused on DPS. Having many dailies at start will always hurt the Tank and Healing numbers. Thats why it was a mistake from BLizzard. Then we saw features like Brawlers guild - balanced again only around DPS - and high dps. Another reason for majority to the player base to focus on DPS specs. Then we have the upgrade systems that pushes ppl to play just one spec (role) and players that deside to play more than 1 role suffer grately cause they will always be up to 20 ilvls behind. So even players that wanted to play tanks and healers - are in the end forced to play as DPS if they want to take part in the content.

This is just one simple example. It shows the total lack of understanding from Blizzard to maintain good solid core balance to the game. Cause if you do not have good core role balance for PVE content - then the core of the entire game, the part that has made WOW what it is - becomes far worse. And it pushes more and more players away. Even those DPS that Blizzard were trying to add content for when they end up in up to hour long Qs in LFR - just for example.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 01:53 PM ----------

The critic about the dailies is exactly what it is. Critic. When progress in the game is based on doing one type of content for rewards then the core of what BLizzard said at the start of this expansion is simply not true. They said they wanted to give players more options on how to play. They simply did not.

And so I continue my talk about role balance. Removing tabards for getting rep in dungeons yet again made tanks and healers suffer. Keeping tabards and giving out lower rep gains (just for bosses and max possible gain per day) would have been the TRUE way of giving players options. And for many it would have been more enjoyable way of gaining rep since it at least involves some co-op and social aspects over running solo dailies.

even with tabards people would complain. they aren't gonna let you get exalted in a day or two, so that either means every kills is really low rep or there is a cap on rep per day and it would still take the same amount of time.

people want their reward (exalted) now and don't want to wait. so anything that gets in the way of that is going to be labeled as bad game design. a small amount from one dungeon per day and farming rep is a decent idea. there's your variety.

And again - My motivation has nothing to do with gear. It has to do with good solid game systems that work to balance the game on as many fronts as possible. Be that with role balance, class balance, and the other core systems in the game that rewards players for playing the game.

Many of the systems in MOP have been focused on DPS. Having many dailies at start will always hurt the Tank and Healing numbers. Thats why it was a mistake from BLizzard. Then we saw features like Brawlers guild - balanced again only around DPS - and high dps. Another reason for majority to the player base to focus on DPS specs. Then we have the upgrade systems that pushes ppl to play just one spec (role) and players that deside to play more than 1 role suffer grately cause they will always be up to 20 ilvls behind. So even players that wanted to play tanks and healers - are in the end forced to play as DPS if they want to take part in the content.

This is just one simple example. It shows the total lack of understanding from Blizzard to maintain good solid core balance to the game. Cause if you do not have good core role balance for PVE content - then the core of the entire game, the part that has made WOW what it is - becomes far worse. And it pushes more and more players away. Even those DPS that Blizzard were trying to add content for when they end up in up to hour long Qs in LFR - just for example.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 01:53 PM ----------

The critic about the dailies is exactly what it is. Critic. When progress in the game is based on doing one type of content for rewards then the core of what BLizzard said at the start of this expansion is simply not true. They said they wanted to give players more options on how to play. They simply did not.

And so I continue my talk about role balance. Removing tabards for getting rep in dungeons yet again made tanks and healers suffer. Keeping tabards and giving out lower rep gains (just for bosses and max possible gain per day) would have been the TRUE way of giving players options. And for many it would have been more enjoyable way of gaining rep since it at least involves some co-op and social aspects over running solo dailies.

1. Dailies are not necessary. If you don't like them don't do them.
2. Dailies have always, and will always be more "anooying" for healers and tanks than for DPS. This is another reason to have a dps spec.
3. Brawlers Guild is not a necessary part of the game.
4. The game has always been "easier" when you focus on one role.
5. You are not forced to play DPS.
6. You can do many things, like the dailies while in that hour long queue. Its also unlikely to have an "easy fix"
7. You have very many options.
8. Taking tabards from the game did not make you suffer as a healer or tank. You can easily group to do them while in your lfr queue.
9. Dailies are not required to be solo.
10. You seem to miss my point about incessant whining and real criticism.
11. If you want the rewards dailies give, do them. If you don't, don't.
12. There is no "set" progression path. There is one that includes more/better rewards, and that includes doing as many dailies as possible, getting capped on valor etc. You don't have to do them. If they raised the valor cap to 2000, people would complain about being forced to get 2000 valor. But thats not true.

You guys just have a warped view on what is forced and what isn't. Your argument really just comes down to : I want gear faster. So much whining in this forum really takes away how good and solid this game is, especially when compared to alternatives. The last daily blink really pegs a large amount of the complaints here.

You can hit 90 and do heroics/quests and craft some gear and hop into LFR. You can move to normals from there. You can hit 90 from dungeons only, then do dailies and go to LFR from there. There are many paths you can do. This game has always been about the most time and effort = more gear. (Save for RNG.) Why you want that to change, or what you want to change it to, I don't know.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 09:46 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Blur4stuff

even with tabards people would complain. they aren't gonna let you get exalted in a day or two, so that either means every kills is really low rep or there is a cap on rep per day and it would still take the same amount of time.

people want their reward (exalted) now and don't want to wait. so anything that gets in the way of that is going to be labeled as bad game design. a small amount from one dungeon per day and farming rep is a decent idea. there's your variety.

Agree very much.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire

even with tabards people would complain. they aren't gonna let you get exalted in a day or two, so that either means every kills is really low rep or there is a cap on rep per day and it would still take the same amount of time.

people want their reward (exalted) now and don't want to wait. so anything that gets in the way of that is going to be labeled as bad game design. a small amount from one dungeon per day and farming rep is a decent idea. there's your variety.

Players want their rep in a day or two because way to much is now gated behind the rep. One item per spec on each faction would make the rep "grind" less of a deal. Thats how it was back in TBC for example. Double gating gear behind both rep and valor like we are seeing in MOP should not really be needed. Its the first time we see this double gated mechanic. It has created alot of extra issues to the game that were not there before. And the only reason Blizzard has given us for making those changes is to "give players something to do so they don't run out of content".

But thats exactly the critic of this system. Players would still have plenty to do if some of the gear was gated behind rep - and some of it was gated behind valor.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 02:56 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan

1. Dailies are not necessary. If you don't like them don't do them.
2. Dailies have always, and will always be more "anooying" for healers and tanks than for DPS. This is another reason to have a dps spec.
3. Brawlers Guild is not a necessary part of the game.
4. The game has always been "easier" when you focus on one role.
5. You are not forced to play DPS.
6. You can do many things, like the dailies while in that hour long queue. Its also unlikely to have an "easy fix"
7. You have very many options.
8. Taking tabards from the game did not make you suffer as a healer or tank. You can easily group to do them while in your lfr queue.
9. Dailies are not required to be solo.
10. You seem to miss my point about incessant whining and real criticism.
11. If you want the rewards dailies give, do them. If you don't, don't.
12. There is no "set" progression path. There is one that includes more/better rewards, and that includes doing as many dailies as possible, getting capped on valor etc. You don't have to do them. If they raised the valor cap to 2000, people would complain about being forced to get 2000 valor. But thats not true.

You guys just have a warped view on what is forced and what isn't. Your argument really just comes down to : I want gear faster. So much whining in this forum really takes away how good and solid this game is, especially when compared to alternatives. The last daily blink really pegs a large amount of the complaints here.

You can hit 90 and do heroics/quests and craft some gear and hop into LFR. You can move to normals from there. You can hit 90 from dungeons only, then do dailies and go to LFR from there. There are many paths you can do. This game has always been about the most time and effort = more gear. (Save for RNG.) Why you want that to change, or what you want to change it to, I don't know.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 09:46 AM ----------

Agree very much.

Your ignorance baffles me.
Again - my argument has nothing to do with gear - never has. It has to do with game balance. Dont put words in my mouth plz.

And about Brawlers guild. Its not a necessary part of the game - its an "optional" thing that punishes 2 out of 3 roles in the game for not updating their dps gear. I used it as an example EXACTLY because it had nothing to do with gear rewards - but was just content that every player should be able to play without focusing on improving their offspec gear if they choose to play as healer or tank. It just proofs your ignorance when you then say that players just want to get their gear right away. It has to do with choice of how player play the game. Just because healers and tanks are a minority group in MOP - and are treated as such, just goes to show the real issues that the game has.

Players want their rep in a day or two because way to much is now gated behind the rep. One item per spec on each faction would make the rep "grind" less of a deal. Thats how it was back in TBC for example. Double gating gear behind both rep and valor like we are seeing in MOP should not really be needed. Its the first time we see this double gated mechanic. It has created alot of extra issues to the game that were not there before. And the only reason Blizzard has given us for making those changes is to "give players something to do so they don't run out of content".

But thats exactly the critic of this system. Players would still have plenty to do if some of the gear was gated behind rep - and some of it was gated behind valor.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 02:56 PM ----------

Your ignorance baffles me.
Again - my argument has nothing to do with gear - never has. It has to do with game balance. Dont put words in my mouth plz.

And about Brawlers guild. Its not a necessary part of the game - its an "optional" thing that punishes 2 out of 3 roles in the game for not updating their dps gear. I used it as an example EXACTLY because it had nothing to do with gear rewards - but was just content that every player should be able to play without focusing on improving their offspec gear if they choose to play as healer or tank. It just proofs your ignorance when you then say that players just want to get their gear right away. It has to do with choice of how player play the game. Just because healers and tanks are a minority group in MOP - and are treated as such, just goes to show the real issues that the game has.

Look, when you take out every grind out of the game what are you left with?

Dungeons, Raids, Battleground, Arena and that's it - this is what Cataclysm was, where 95% of server population was hanging out in major cities, logging in for 30 minute a day to queue for a dungeon, and in the end logging 3 times a week in 2 minutes before a raid, get the raid done and log off.

That is a game I don't want to play anymore, sorry. Mists of Pandaria is way more fun, still, right now, at this point in time Cataclysm was already boring as fuck, with nothing to do.

Look, when you take out every grind out of the game what are you left with?

Dungeons, Raids, Battleground, Arena and that's it - this is what Cataclysm was, where 95% of server population was hanging out in major cities, logging in for 30 minute a day to queue for a dungeon, and in the end logging 3 times a week in 2 minutes before a raid, get the raid done and log off.

That is a game I don't want to play anymore, sorry. Mists of Pandaria is way more fun, still, right now, at this point in time Cataclysm was already boring as fuck, with nothing to do.

Cataclysm failed because it lacked content. Adding grind does not add content - it adds reason to grind the content. 8 months of no update on live servers would still make you feel you had nothing to do MOP. Just because BLizzard ignored live server for 8 months in Cata to make it look like MOP had more "content" does only show their lack of respect for subscribers.

LFR is horrid at best, im tired of grinding dailies every single day just to get charms that when i use in lfr just gives me more gold which isnt enough to cover the repair cost for wipes. The people in these lfr groups are some of the worst people ive seen with horrible language as well as manners. It takes me almost 7 ques to get a full clear of terrace and hof just for one toon.

Going back to play league of legends till this &*^# gets fixed. DOUBLE IP WEEKEND!!!!!

Players want their rep in a day or two because way to much is now gated behind the rep. One item per spec on each faction would make the rep "grind" less of a deal. Thats how it was back in TBC for example. Double gating gear behind both rep and valor like we are seeing in MOP should not really be needed. Its the first time we see this double gated mechanic. It has created alot of extra issues to the game that were not there before. And the only reason Blizzard has given us for making those changes is to "give players something to do so they don't run out of content".

But thats exactly the critic of this system. Players would still have plenty to do if some of the gear was gated behind rep - and some of it was gated behind valor.

Your ignorance baffles me.
Again - my argument has nothing to do with gear - never has. It has to do with game balance. Dont put words in my mouth plz.

And about Brawlers guild. Its not a necessary part of the game - its an "optional" thing that punishes 2 out of 3 roles in the game for not updating their dps gear. I used it as an example EXACTLY because it had nothing to do with gear rewards - but was just content that every player should be able to play without focusing on improving their offspec gear if they choose to play as healer or tank. It just proofs your ignorance when you then say that players just want to get their gear right away. It has to do with choice of how player play the game. Just because healers and tanks are a minority group in MOP - and are treated as such, just goes to show the real issues that the game has.

Your first paragraph is literally about gear. You just want more gear, faster. So don't try to lie to me =\

You are not being punished. If you can't do the content as a tank, you have dual spec for a reason. Its extra side content. What don't you get? You have so many options, some you don't feel like using, so you complain.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire

Your first paragraph is literally about gear. You just want more gear, faster. So don't try to lie to me =\

You are not being punished. If you can't do the content as a tank, you have dual spec for a reason. Its extra side content. What don't you get? You have so many options, some you don't feel like using, so you complain.

Same ignorance as before. You lack the understanding on game balance. Just like Blizzard does at this point.
Mentioning the words items and gear does not mean that I want them. It means that the Blizzard has put overly focus on those rather than making a good solid game where gear isn't everything. And they are increasing this focus even more by adding even more item lvls. And that just creates more balancing issues.

You dont have a clue. You putting words in ppl's mouth so you can generalize about ever poster here just goes to show that.

Same ignorance as before. You lack the understanding on game balance. Just like Blizzard does at this point.
Mentioning the words items and gear does not mean that I want them. It means that the Blizzard has put overly focus on those rather than making a good solid game where gear isn't everything. And they are increasing this focus even more by adding even more item lvls. And that just creates more balancing issues.

You dont have a clue. You putting words in ppl's mouth so you can generalize about ever poster here just goes to show that.

You were literally posting about gear. If you aren't talking about it, why bring it up?

So everyone, even the highly paid developers, you know, the ones with degrees, that have been running one of the most popular games of all time.. yeah, everyone but you is clueless? I am not putting words in your mouth. If you aren't talking about gear, then what? You complain Blizzard is gating you from something, what is it? OH ITS GEAR. This is a good solid game. Think about the alternatives. Cataclysm really spoiled so much of the player base its sad. You could effortlessly get from level 1-85 and then be in current gear within a day or two.

There is a good reason Blizzard is doing it this way. They listened to the players too often, Cataclysm happens, people blow through content, have 10 toons at max level with current LFR gear, then whine about not having stuff to do and unsub. This time around, they gate some content so you actually have to login and get out of SW/Org and do stuff, and people whine STILL.

Again, you have dual spec. if you really want to bark up the "I can't do everything in onl one spec/set" tree, then again, YOU HAVE DUAL SPEC.

Again, dailies and valor stuff isn't necessary. you can literally get to LFR without it, get LFR gear without it, since we all know thats just a afklootfest nowadays, where 50% of the raid is barely paying attention.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire

1. Dailies are not necessary. If you don't like them don't do them.
2. Dailies have always, and will always be more "anooying" for healers and tanks than for DPS. This is another reason to have a dps spec.
3. Brawlers Guild is not a necessary part of the game.
4. The game has always been "easier" when you focus on one role.
5. You are not forced to play DPS.
6. You can do many things, like the dailies while in that hour long queue. Its also unlikely to have an "easy fix"
7. You have very many options.
8. Taking tabards from the game did not make you suffer as a healer or tank. You can easily group to do them while in your lfr queue.
9. Dailies are not required to be solo.
10. You seem to miss my point about incessant whining and real criticism.
11. If you want the rewards dailies give, do them. If you don't, don't.
12. There is no "set" progression path. There is one that includes more/better rewards, and that includes doing as many dailies as possible, getting capped on valor etc. You don't have to do them. If they raised the valor cap to 2000, people would complain about being forced to get 2000 valor. But thats not true.

You guys just have a warped view on what is forced and what isn't. Your argument really just comes down to : I want gear faster. So much whining in this forum really takes away how good and solid this game is, especially when compared to alternatives. The last daily blink really pegs a large amount of the complaints here.

You can hit 90 and do heroics/quests and craft some gear and hop into LFR. You can move to normals from there. You can hit 90 from dungeons only, then do dailies and go to LFR from there. There are many paths you can do. This game has always been about the most time and effort = more gear. (Save for RNG.) Why you want that to change, or what you want to change it to, I don't know.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 09:46 AM ----------

Agree very much.

In other words, "I dont agree so it cant be true". People are expressing how they feel about the current direction, if you cant understand their motivations - fair enough but you cannot say they are wrong.

You were literally posting about gear. If you aren't talking about it, why bring it up?

So everyone, even the highly paid developers, you know, the ones with degrees, that have been running one of the most popular games of all time.. yeah, everyone but you is clueless? I am not putting words in your mouth. If you aren't talking about gear, then what? You complain Blizzard is gating you from something, what is it? OH ITS GEAR. This is a good solid game. Think about the alternatives. Cataclysm really spoiled so much of the player base its sad. You could effortlessly get from level 1-85 and then be in current gear within a day or two.

There is a good reason Blizzard is doing it this way. They listened to the players too often, Cataclysm happens, people blow through content, have 10 toons at max level with current LFR gear, then whine about not having stuff to do and unsub. This time around, they gate some content so you actually have to login and get out of SW/Org and do stuff, and people whine STILL.

Again, you have dual spec. if you really want to bark up the "I can't do everything in onl one spec/set" tree, then again, YOU HAVE DUAL SPEC.

Again, dailies and valor stuff isn't necessary. you can literally get to LFR without it, get LFR gear without it, since we all know thats just a afklootfest nowadays, where 50% of the raid is barely paying attention.

Dual specs are not just DPS and another role. Many loved to play tank and healer as far back as first dual spec was added.

I can not help you if you dont understand what Im talking about. Its called balance. If I was talking about gear then I should be delighted to see more ilvls and more gear beeing added in 5.2. Im not - cause it will just create more unbalanced gameplay all around.

Cataclysm failed because BLizzard yet again left the game without new content for over 8 months. OFC ppl started to play alts... Why should those players not be allowed to point out the unfriendly alt nature of MOP when BLizzard offered nothing else in cata than rolling alts ? Oh wait... those players must be whining now. It can't be Blizzard that failed to support their game .. not only in CATA -but also now in MOP for those players that stuck with Cata by playing alts. No way !!

Yes.. they are all just whiners that think about gear. Keep on generalizing about the WOW community. It just shows your ignorance.

Dual specs are not just DPS and another role. Many loved to play tank and healer as far back as first dual spec was added.

I can not help you if you dont understand what Im talking about. Its called balance. If I was talking about gear then I should be delighted to see more ilvls and more gear beeing added in 5.2. Im not - cause it will just create more unbalanced gameplay all around.

Cataclysm failed because BLizzard yet again left the game without new content for over 8 months. OFC ppl started to play alts... Why should those players not be allowed to point out the unfriendly alt nature of MOP when BLizzard offered nothing else in cata than rolling alts ? Oh wait... those players must be whining now. It can't be Blizzard that failed to support their game .. not only in CATA -but also now in MOP for those players that stuck with Cata by playing alts. No way !!

Yes.. they are all just whiners that think about gear. Keep on generalizing about the WOW community. It just shows your ignorance.

...so just respec to a dps spec and once you're done, switch back. How lazy are you? Oh wait, that's Blizzard's fault as well.