loveladyelectric

I'm out of the wine buying game for at least 2 months. After a woot-off (11 bottles), LB march madness (16? bottles), Paso Robles trip (12 bottles, 2 magnums) and two wine club shipments, it's going to take a lot to convince my SO that I don't have a problem.

mommadeb1

loveladyelectric wrote:I'm out of the wine buying game for at least 2 months. After a woot-off (11 bottles), LB march madness (16? bottles), Paso Robles trip (12 bottles, 2 magnums) and two wine club shipments, it's going to take a lot to convince my SO that I don't have a problem.

I feel your pain!!! I got (I think) 1l at LB only 3 during the woot off..... plus paying off the D&D trip......

rjquillin

But still below what we are used to paying for a Ty Cab, and expected we'll have to forget we have these for some number of years before pulling corks. We pretty much know what to expect from Ty by now, unless he really went off the rails.

kylemittskus

rjquillin wrote:But still below what we are used to paying for a Ty Cab, and expected we'll have to forget we have these for some number of years before pulling corks. We pretty much know what to expect from Ty by now, unless he really went off the rails.

F all that! It was rated 92 points!!!!

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chipgreen

I went in on the Ty WTSO deal but I am wondering why it's called a "Winemaker's Cuvee" when it's 100% CS?

More importantly, why are Ty's wines so much more expensive on woot than WTSO? Hard to see the value in 3 for $80 shipped when WTSO just shipped 4 for $80 yesterday. Especially when both the Merlot and Ty's Red retail for less than the Cab.

noslensj

chipgreen wrote:I went in on the Ty WTSO deal but I am wondering why it's called a "Winemaker's Cuvee" when it's 100% CS?

More importantly, why are Ty's wines so much more expensive on woot than WTSO? Hard to see the value in 3 for $80 shipped when WTSO just shipped 4 for $80 yesterday. Especially when both the Merlot and Ty's Red retail for less than the Cab.

I've always thought that "Cuvee" is supposed to indicate some higher quality selection by the winemaker. So I think it interesting to see something designated a Cuvee that sells for less then the "ordinary" version of the same thing.

I've posted several times wondering what is the unique about the "Winemakers Cuvee" as compared with what appears to be the identical CS with the "Winemakers Cuvee" distinction. No one has ever provided an answer that provided any kind of explanation.

For myself, I suspect that these "Cuvees" are simply surplus production of the same "non-Cuvee" CS. By calling it a Cuvee, with a slightly different label, he can sell it for less without undercutting the "regular" label.

klezman

noslensj wrote:I've always thought that "Cuvee" is supposed to indicate some higher quality selection by the winemaker. So I think it interesting to see something designated a Cuvee that sells for less then the "ordinary" version of the same thing.

I've posted several times wondering what is the unique about the "Winemakers Cuvee" as compared with what appears to be the identical CS with the "Winemakers Cuvee" distinction. No one has ever provided an answer that provided any kind of explanation.

For myself, I suspect that these "Cuvees" are simply surplus production of the same "non-Cuvee" CS. By calling it a Cuvee, with a slightly different label, he can sell it for less without undercutting the "regular" label.

I suspect it's a cuvee of non-estate sourced grapes. The description mentioned Alexander Valley, which is not where Ty owns vineyards.

chipgreen

noslensj wrote:I've always thought that "Cuvee" is supposed to indicate some higher quality selection by the winemaker. So I think it interesting to see something designated a Cuvee that sells for less then the "ordinary" version of the same thing.

I always thought it signified a blend but it seems we're both right - From Wiki;
----------------------
The term cuvée is used with several different meanings, more or less based on the concept of a tank of wine put to some purpose:

On wine labels to denote wine of a specific blend or batch. Since the usage of the term cuvée for this purpose is unregulated, and most wines will have been stored in a vat or tank at some stage of their production, the presence of the word cuvée on a label of a random producer is no guarantee of its (superior) quality. However, in the range of discerning producers who market both regular blends and blends called "cuvée...", the cuvée-labeled wines will usually be special blends or selected vats of higher quality, at least in comparison to that producer's regular wine(s).

In some regions, the term cuvée is used to specifically indicate a blend, i.e., a wine produced from a mixture of several grape varieties, rather than a varietal wine. This is especially true outside of France.
--------------------

noslensj wrote:I've posted several times wondering what is the unique about the "Winemakers Cuvee" as compared with what appears to be the identical CS with the "Winemakers Cuvee" distinction. No one has ever provided an answer that provided any kind of explanation.

For myself, I suspect that these "Cuvees" are simply surplus production of the same "non-Cuvee" CS. By calling it a Cuvee, with a slightly different label, he can sell it for less without undercutting the "regular" label.

But in this case, the Cuvee is a brand new release that's not even available on his website yet (nor are any other '11 Cabs except for a couple of his new white label "collection" cabs from specific vineyards).

FWIW, avg. CT price for these 3 wines = $65. WW price = $70 before tax and shipping, so ~$80 out the door which is 23% above CT average and 33% higher than the '11 Ty Cab Sauv "Cuvee" available on WTSO yesterday.

chipgreen

bsevern

The WTSO writeup doesn't specifically state it's from Alexander Valley, only that it conjures up that taste profile, however, technically being that Alexander Valley is in Sonoma Co., I suppose one could say it's from Sonoma Valley as the label states.

The reason Ty deemed it a cuvee:

He explained that for his Winemaker’s Cuvee he was going to make these from the best tasting single vineyard blocks to blend into a very special Cabernet. His philosophy is that the best of the best from individual blocks with their unique characteristics when blended together would produce a blockbuster wine. The Caton Vineyard (which encompasses all his single blocks), is hillside Cabernet in the Mayacamas Mountains, with multiple sun exposures, each block producing a distinct wine from each part of the property. The main components, which Ty also bottles as exquisite single block wines, are: Big Hill Block, Upper Bench Block and the Little Hill Block. This lush Cabernet was aged for 14 months in 40% new fine French Oak. This rich Cab exhibits a dark purple hue with black cherry, black raspberry and vanilla on the nose. The palate screams Alexander Valley with generous fruit including dark cherry, currant, plum, cassis with hints of vanilla and coffee. The finish is long and pronounced, with perfectly balanced tannins yielding a silky mouth feel.

Obviously there's a lot of Ty haters here, and I honestly haven't tried a lot of his wines, but this is one of the best deals on his cab that I've seen in a long time. For this price, I'm comfortable trying one now, and lying a few down to see how they age. His 2001 Merlot aged quite well. Sadly, IMHO, WW prices have been lackluster on Ty's cabs and his upper end reds for some time. I sampled some of his reds, including the aforementioned 2001 Merlot, and a newer vintage TyTanium at WineDavid's BBQ last summer. They were all tasty, albeit absolutely new world in style.

chipgreen

Thanks B, I should have dug a little deeper into the description from WTSO. It's hard for me to believe that they can negotiate a better deal with Ty than WW so either WD insists on a higher profit margin or he's getting squeezed by Amazon, or both.

kaolis

I bought the 2010 Ty Caton Winemaker's Cuvee from WTSO same price. At the time sent Ty an email asking about. Didn't save the email, but got the impression it was made from lots/blocks that he chose not to put in his other cabs. Either way I really like it. The 2010 is in a more restrained style, not the huge lush chocolate cabs so prevalent now. It has plenty of fruit, nice tannins, just a touch of green or herbs (in a good way). Kind of reminds me of some Bordeaux that I enjoy. More of a food wine to me. Can't compare it to any of his other wine, this is the only Ty Caton I've had.

cmaldoon

chipgreen wrote:Thanks B, I should have dug a little deeper into the description from WTSO. It's hard for me to believe that they can negotiate a better deal with Ty than WW so either WD insists on a higher profit margin or he's getting squeezed by Amazon, or both.

Or, WTSO Buys a 10,000 case block and shoulders all the risk of storing and selling whereas WCC never "buys" the wine, only sells it and then either they or Ty ship it out. Ty would be reasonably able to sell for a lower price for an easy large volume sale with a single shipment.

noslensj

Thank you to all who have posted above. That's the first time I recall seeing this clear a description of what is unique about the cuvee.

He explained that for his Winemaker’s Cuvee he was going to make these from the best tasting single vineyard blocks to blend into a very special Cabernet. His philosophy is that the best of the best from individual blocks with their unique characteristics when blended together would produce a blockbuster wine. The Caton Vineyard (which encompasses all his single blocks), is hillside Cabernet in the Mayacamas Mountains, with multiple sun exposures, each block producing a distinct wine from each part of the property. The main components, which Ty also bottles as exquisite single block wines, are: Big Hill Block, Upper Bench Block and the Little Hill Block. This lush Cabernet was aged for 14 months in 40% new fine French Oak. This rich Cab exhibits a dark purple hue with black cherry, black raspberry and vanilla on the nose. The palate screams Alexander Valley with generous fruit including dark cherry, currant, plum, cassis with hints of vanilla and coffee. The finish is long and pronounced, with perfectly balanced tannins yielding a silky mouth feel.

So, if this description is correct, he created a cuvee that is intended to be a select blend of the blocks from the estate. Which he then sells for less then the general estate offering.

I surmise that either the cuvee didn't turn out as well as hoped or it didn't sell as hoped (or both). In any case, it reinforces the notion that the WTSO offerings are good value; or fantastic value for those who particularly enjoy internationally styled wines.

As I've posted before, for my tastes this is just about on the cusp of what I would be willing to pay.

moondigger

cmaldoon wrote:Or, WTSO Buys a 10,000 case block and shoulders all the risk of storing and selling whereas WCC never "buys" the wine, only sells it and then either they or Ty ship it out. Ty would be reasonably able to sell for a lower price for an easy large volume sale with a single shipment.

rjquillin

cmaldoon wrote:Or, WTSO Buys a 10,000 case block and shoulders all the risk of storing and selling whereas WCC never "buys" the wine, only sells it and then either they or Ty ship it out. Ty would be reasonably able to sell for a lower price for an easy large volume sale with a single shipment.

All WTSO purchases I've made over the years always shipped from NJ, this Ty offering was no exception.
Interesting how, despite shipping CA -> NJ -> CA it's still $80 delivered for four bottles, but likely of lesser quality than the WW offer now up.
Seems pretty clear the increases are due, excepting winery increases, solely to Amazon. Can't fault WD/WCC for that; it's the business model we/he have to live with.

I'll take the winery participation here, when we have it, and slight increase in cost over the nameless/faceless models of other sites any day, especially for those I'm unfamiliar with

moondigger

noslensj wrote:So, if this description is correct, he created a cuvee that is intended to be a select blend of the blocks from the estate. Which he then sells for less then the general estate offering.

I don't think that's a fair assumption (about price). Given that we don't know the differences in cost to the winemaker between Woot and WTSO, we have no idea whether his profit margin is bigger or smaller on the cuvee WTSO had up yesterday.

I surmise that either the cuvee didn't turn out as well as hoped or it didn't sell as hoped (or both).

Or neither. The cuvee on WTSO yesterday was a 2011, just released this month. It's being compared to the assumed price of the 2010 cab from today's Woot offer, which we don't really know the cost of (since it's being averaged with two other dissimilar wines).

chipgreen

cmaldoon wrote:Or, WTSO Buys a 10,000 case block and shoulders all the risk of storing and selling whereas WCC never "buys" the wine, only sells it and then either they or Ty ship it out. Ty would be reasonably able to sell for a lower price for an easy large volume sale with a single shipment.

Only 750 cases produced but I get the idea. Maybe they bought them all and that's why it's not for sale on Ty's website and when he does release his '11 "non" Cuvee CS he can still charge the regular $44 retail claiming it's not the same wine from WTSO.

Bottom line though is that if WTSO's (and LB, et.al.) business model allows them to undercut WW prices by 33% then WW is living on borrowed time. I hope that's not the case.

noslensj

As to business models, it will be interesting to see how things ultimately shake out and organize themselves in the marketplace.

To my mind, one key distinction about WW is this forum and the frequent winery participation. From the standpoint of the winery, this allows an interaction with a community of knowledgeable drinkers and buyers. That process of creating a "personal connection" with the winery in the past has often been a tedious hit-or-miss activity that involved the wine-maker traveling to wine tasting in different locales.

The forum here provides an alternate means for that and, in fact, expands the opportunity in many ways. For example, we are not people who often go to those kinds of events. But via WW, I feel like I have a "connection" with some of the winemakers that I would never have developed otherwise. And, important to the winery, because of that connection I am much more likely to buy at a higher price than otherwise. Similarly the winery can make a special offer here because it is an opportunity to create brand loyalty.

In contrast, many of the other flash sites are simply moving product at the lowest possible price. Will those unique aspects of the WW model generate enough value for the WW variant to survive? Who knows - we'll find out.

****

Getting back to Ty's cuvee, while I agree with Chipgreen that we don't know the cost structure and the WTSO offering with the 2011, we can see very similar patterns with the 2010 offering.

And it appears that Ty created a "Cuvee" which he then monetized in a single block sale to WTSO. And the price he received was sufficiently low to enable WTSO to ship the juice to NJ, warehouse it, repack it, and reship it, and do all of that for about one-third less then the non-Cuvee offerings at WW.

Honing my Occam's razor, I tilt to the explanation that he's producing more juice than he can sell under his existing pricing structure and is moving it at clearance sale prices in a way that he hopes will minimally disrupt his overall pricing structure.

And so far the situation with the 2011 looks like a repeat of the 2010.

chipgreen

@noslensj, I think you've got a good read on the situation and I agree with just about everything you said.

I do feel that the winemaker participation and interactivity of the forums has value and that it leaves some wiggle room for slightly higher prices than a straight flash sale site but I hope that the 33% premium for this deal vs. the WTSO deal is an outlier and not the new normal.

noslensj

chipgreen wrote:@noslensj, I think you've got a good read on the situation and I agree with just about everything you said.

I do feel that the winemaker participation and interactivity of the forums has value and that it leaves some wiggle room for slightly higher prices than a straight flash sale site but I hope that the 33% premium for this deal vs. the WTSO deal is an outlier and not the new normal.

If you believe that in the recent past there has been a glut of wine in the marketplace and that supply and demand are rebalancing, then I think the woot model becomes much more sustainable. If the glut shrinks, that leaves fewer of the "clearance sale" situations that are the forte of the other flash sites. Without a glut, though, a site such as woot will still offer benefit to a winery as an effective marketing tool. Or stated a bit differently, the other flash sites are built strictly for sales; woot offers a marketing component as well.

*****

And even with that being said, I'm not sure that woot prices overall are greater. Good deals can pop up anywhere, and my buying patterns indicate that they are as apt to occur at WW as elsewhere.

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