As you all *should* know, during the Hans most critical moment, many loyal followers rose up to quell the rebellions. The upholders of the Han were few, and mostly weak and without any means of purging the rebels from China.

Personally, I find the loyalists weak and pitiful, and they should have given up before they started. During Dong Zhuo's time, he put a child on the imperial seat and made a puppet out of him. The mandate of the Han was almost completely gone by this time.

One such example is Liu Bei, loyalist or traitor? What are your thoughts?

I told you I get paid for every letter.. like abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

I'm not going to say anything about Liu Bei (*looks around for angry Shu people with stones*), but one man who was really loyal to Han was Xun Yu -- he tried to prevent Cao Cao from usurping, even if it meant that he himself would be killed.

"Whatever you do, don't fall off the bridge! It'll be a pain to try to get back up again." - Private, DW 8

Lady Wu wrote:I'm not going to say anything about Liu Bei (*looks around for angry Shu people with stones*), but one man who was really loyal to Han was Xun Yu -- he tried to prevent Cao Cao from usurping, even if it meant that he himself would be killed.

Dont worry, I like Shu, but to a certain extent. Yes, Xun Yu was very loyal, but werent his attempts in vain? Han was a rotting carcas at that time and there was no way any one person couldve stopped the inevitable.

I told you I get paid for every letter.. like abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

Lady Wu wrote:I'm not going to say anything about Liu Bei (*looks around for angry Shu people with stones*), but one man who was really loyal to Han was Xun Yu -- he tried to prevent Cao Cao from usurping, even if it meant that he himself would be killed.

(Chen Kun hides his stone quickly) Xun Yu was too naive if he think that Cao Cao was a loyalist.

Hmm I never saw Xun Yu as a real loyalist.
Anyways, Liu Bei was not loyal because he used his fake ties to the Han to manipulate the child Emperor, claim land that wasn't his, and later usurp to become Emperor himself.
Sun Jian rendered great service to the Han and I have no reason to doubt his loyalty to the Han.

He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Sun Jian rendered great service to the Han and I have no reason to doubt his loyalty to the Han.

I guess you must be talking about the novel perspective cos that guy was in no way a loyal Han servant in history.

Even in the novel, Sun Jian kept the Jade Seal with intention of setting up his own base in the south.

yeah Sun Jian wanted to keep Han for himself

I do not see anything wrong with that, I should imagine Sun Jian being a much better leader than anyone involved in the Han was. And I think Han loyalist like Lu Zhi, Haungfu Song, Zhu Jun and He Jin were good at holding up the Han in its time, the downside was, that they were all to old and died not long after the short time of piece after the Yellow Turbans., thats when Dong Zhou who had helped remove the Yellow Turbans rose to power.