There are 30 messages totalling 808 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Preferred Terms (5)
2. naming of RU486 (2)
3. Relics (2)
4. Hallowe'en greetings? (5)
5. offending idioms (5)
6. Boulder Dam
7. Happy Halloween (4)
8. relics (2)
9. Response to Terms (2)
10. Felicitations
11. NEW: POS302-L - Race/Ethnicity Book Review List (fwd)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL
From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Preferred Terms
i think more than region, age is a factor in preferred term--see
papers by geneva smitherman and john baugh in _american speech_ wrt
"african american". polls about terms for people of african descent
are highly age-differentiated, due, i'm sure, to the fact that older
people lived through more positive usages of what are now considered
pejorative terms.
of course, the opposite can be observed in the reclamation of
pejorative terms, such as the word
"queer", which is much more enthusiastically embraced by younger
people. older people are stereotyped as claiming they can't get
over the pejorative use of it--perhaps because when they were subject
to taunts of "queer" (as youngsters), there were no positive role
models who were openly not heterosexual.
of course, anyone whose long-evolved self-concept is very based in
"race", "ethnicity", "sexual orientation", etc. will be more resistant
to accepting new terms, since this may call into question their self-
concept and interaction with the group, or may seem to invalidate
experience they've already had. e.g., if some people claim "we're
not american indians--that's white people's terminology, based on
their own ignorance", then if i've been living my (esp. adult) life
thinking of myself as "american indian", i've just been told that my
identity (which is nearly all that i am) is, in part, the
construction of someone other than myself, and, in particular,
someone who i define myself in contrast (and perhaps, polysemously,
in opposition) to.
i find the issue of prefered terms particularly troubling in
dictionaries. while i see the necessity of usage notes for terms
that are likely to offend, usage notes stating preference for a term
are a bit orwellian, i think, and, more importantly, often
inaccurate. (i argue this point in _dictionaries_ 1991.) for
example, the random house webster's college dictionary (1991)
states in the usage note for _black_ that "by the close of the 1980s,
African-American, urged by leaders in the American black community,
had begun to supplant _black_ in both print and speech, esp. as a
term of self-reference." now, i won't argue that "african(-)american"
is now used instead of "black" in some contexts. however, a few
other ill-supported assumptions are allowed here.
first, the "esp. as self-reference" part. as RHWCD was going to
press, the joint center for political and economic studies was
publishing the results of a survey showing that only 22-28% of
registered voters with predominantly black african ancestry prefered
"african american" over "black"--with the young, educated, and
northern u.s. respondents preferring it most.
however, the "mainstream" media replaced "black" with
"african(-)american" at a much faster rate, with _time_, _newsweek_,
_the new york times_ and many other newspapers making editorial
statements explaining their adoption of the term within 6 months
(usu. less) of jesse jackson's speech that introduced people from
outside the community to "african(-)american". (remember, it took
_the new york times_ nearly 20 years to give in to pressure to use
"ms." for women who prefer it.)
jackson, in that speech, continues to use "black" after stating a
preference for "african american", as do most people i know who
identify as "african american". however, it is not at all uncommon
in liberal white circles for a (white) person to be corrected by a
white person when s/he says "black" (saying "you mean, 'african
american'"). whereas "african american" seems to have been adopted
as a companion term to "black" in self-reference, it is supplanting
"black" in certain white circles. witness _self_ magazine's usage of
"african-american hair", as if hair has nationality and "african" or
"afro- caribbean" hair is not suited to the same kind of treatment.
(i have a lot of hair stories!)
the other issue is the orthography in this usage note. this is just
based on impression, but i've found that while many "mainstream"
media outlets hyphenate "african-american" (and some don't), most of
the media owned/edited/aimed at black americans and writing by
individual african americans (not subject to the editorial
conventions of mainstream media) don't (in my
experience) hyphenate. so, is "african-american" really supplanting
"black" as a term of self-reference? or is "african american"
joining "black" as a term of self-reference, while "african-american"
is supplanting "black" in use by some outgroup members?
didn't mean to write an entire paper here, but get me started and i
have a hard time stopping.
references:
baugh, john. 1991. the politicization of changing terms of self-
reference among american slave descendants. _american speech_
66:2.133-46.
murphy, m. lynne. 1991. defining racial labels: problems and
promise in american dictionaries. _dictionaries_ 13:43-64.
[no author] 1991. poll says blacks prefer to be called "black".
_jet_ 78(11 feb):8.
smitherman, geneva. 1991. what is africa to me? language,
ideology, and african american. _american speech_ 66:2.115-32.
______________________________________________________________________
M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za
Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340
University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030
Johannesburg 2050 South Africa
"Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 06:46:34 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: Preferred Terms
Dr. Murphy -
An extraordinary summary!
Birrell Walsh
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 08:57:00 CST
From: Edward Callary
Subject: naming of RU486
Does anyone know the reasons for the naming of the
abortion-inducing drug RU486?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 09:03:34 -0600
From: Joan Livingston-Webber
Subject: Relics
Until CD's came out, I never noticed my own use of the word
"album." I think it's because a cassette also has a flip side.
With CD's all around, album (and flip side) sound weird. Well,
my kids correct me!
A stero is no longer a turntable + amp and
speakers. With technology, relics don't have to go back a
generation--or else a generation has become so foreshortened that
we can live through, oh, a dozen or so generations in one
lifetime.
On a walk recently, I said, "That dog sounds like she's in an
iron lung." And someone else said, oh I remember those. The
relics are also in metaphors and similes, not just direct
reference.
--
Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."
-Clifford Geertz
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 08:51:44 -0800
From: David Harnick-Shapiro
Subject: Re: Preferred Terms
On Mon, 31 Oct 1994 14:21, Michael Linn writes:
> In Northern Minnesota, indigenous people
> want to be called *American Indian*, not *Native American* and
> ...
> What are the preferred terms in other parts of the country?
In reading a Canadian publication from about four years ago, I
recently came across "First Peoples". Maybe someone nearer the
border (than Southern California :-) can provide more info --
like, who uses it, and for whom?
--------
David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu
Information and Computer Science
University of California, Irvine
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 09:10:19 -0800
From: David Harnick-Shapiro
Subject: Hallowe'en greetings?
Last night was my first Hallowe'en as a homeowner. Apart from a
disappointingly low turnout (anyone want several pounds of left-
over candy? :-) it all went quite well. I was struck, though,
by one thing: in addition to the recitation of "Trick or treat!"
and "Thank you!", a number of children (more toward the 8-10 age
range?) shouted out "Happy Hallowe'en!" as they left our door.
Is saying "Happy Hallowe'en" customary in other parts of the
country? (I grew up here, so I'm disinclined to think it a
local custom of which I was unaware.) Maybe I just got a
bunch of polite trick-or-treaters.
(For some reason I still can't put my finger on, the way these
kids said "Happy Hallowe'en!" reminded me of people shouting
"Merry Christmas!" as they left a Christmas celebration. Maybe
the September onset of Christmas advertising is having an effect...)
--------
David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu
Information and Computer Science
University of California, Irvine
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL
From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Preferred Terms
> Dr. Murphy -
>
> An extraordinary summary!
>
> Birrell Walsh
thanks for the compliment!
lynne
______________________________________________________________________
M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za
Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340
University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030
Johannesburg 2050 South Africa
"Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 12:32:15 -0400
From: Bob Lancaster
Subject: offending idioms
Sali writes
>Having lived in the South for 10 years with African-American and White
>American friends, I have a hard time contextualizing Roger Vanderveen's
>claim that the term "Nigger" is acceptable and used by lots of people in
>the South.
Although I suspect that a lot of people here are getting pretty tired of this
topic (as I am) I guess I can't let it go without saying how ridiculous the
term "African American" sounds to me. Many of
the persons so denominated haven't been anywhere near Africa for a hundred and
fifty years. And I have to add that if I saw it paired with "White
Americans" on a freshman theme I'd mark it "Parallelism !". White American
goes with Brown American, Red American, Yellow American, Black American--if
we believe in UFO's maybe Green American. Actually, this may be better than
the geographical division, though. Here we are forced into a denominational
thicket--European American (probably a bare majority these days),
Scandanavian American, Southeast Asian American, Phillipine Island American,
South American American. And we're still not out of the woods, since we
don't know if Sali includes Egyptians, Moroccans, Algerians, et al., among
African Americans. What's wrong with blacks? Most of the people I know have
have used it since the sixties, and in those halcyon days it was beautiful.
>In my opinion, no offensive term is less abusive than any other. If a
>person resents any term used in reference to them [sic], then users of the
>term should discontinue using it. It is a simple matter of civility.
Of course, this sounds great, and civility and good manners are the foundation
of a society worth living in. But its universality here is disturbing. Are
we truly barred from any language that anyone might find unpleasant? No
one can feel good about being crippled, but should we really expunge the word
from the vocabulary? Do we stop reading Shakespeare and Chaucer, or Bowdlerize
them? Many people without hair don't like to hear the work "bald." What do we
call them? Hair Challenged? It is all too possible to sanitize language
until it's essentially dead, and it seems to me we're well on the way.
I am deeply embarrassed to hear someone say
"nigger," I think mostly mostly because it carries such a historical freight
of hatred and contempt. (Same for "faggot," though, and quite a few others.)
But I think we need to be very careful about PCing words just because
they might upset someone. There's a lot of hypocrisy in PC, and language
shapes thought. If we can only think in abstractions we've lost touch with
reality.
Bob Lancaster
SUNY-emeritus, English
slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 13:15:23 CST
From: salikoko mufwene
Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings?
In Message Tue, 1 Nov 1994 09:10:19 -0800,
David Harnick-Shapiro writes:
>Last night was my first Hallowe'en as a homeowner. (...) I was struck, though,
>by one thing: in addition to the recitation of "Trick or treat!"
>and "Thank you!", a number of children (more toward the 8-10 age
>range?) shouted out "Happy Hallowe'en!" as they left our door.
>
>Is saying "Happy Hallowe'en" customary in other parts of the
>country?
Last night I took my six-year old daughter trick-or-treating. Several of
the people we visited wished us "Happy hallowe'en." None of the authors of
the phrase sounded foreign to me.
Sali.
Salikoko S. Mufwene
University of Chicago
Dept. of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 10:29:10 -0800
From: THOMAS CLARK
Subject: Re: Boulder Dam
On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, James Beniger wrote:
[snip]
> I'd like to hear Thomas Clark clarify/elaborate the sentence "Local media
> are careful to make the distinction between Boulder and Hoover"
When newspaper writers talk about the construction phase, they use
"Boulder." When they refer to anytime later than 1947 they use "Hoover."
Television people (we can't really call them reporters around here) are
clueless. They usually use "Hoover" for everything.
Part of the confusion stems from an interesting political spat. In
1928, the paperwork was signed into law for "Boulder." In 1931, the
structure was dedicated as "Hoover." In 1933, Hoover was out of the
picture. The Democrats, seizing the opportunity, CHANGED the name back
to "Boulder." In 1947, Congress officially (!) made the name "Hoover."
A group of Boulder City old-timers who worked on the dam call themselves
The '33 Club. This was the year they rid themselves of the hated
sobriquet "Hoover." These are also the folks that the local newspapers
used to interview. But our major regional newspaper, the Las Vegas
Review Journal runs columns only by George Wills, Wm Buckley, Sobran, R.
Emmet Tyrrell and others from The American Spectator. This weekend it
endorsed political candidates by name and named only Republicans. It
made no mention of Democrats or anyone running in non-partisan races.
The RJ now has a policy of referring only to Hoover Dam in all contexts.
This policy has been in effect for only about two years. (In the words
of one reporter friend, "due to the failed Clinton Administration, we
must use only 'Hoover Dam.'")
Media watching here is interesting.
Cheers,
tlc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 14:59:10 -0500
From: Martha Howard
Subject: Happy Halloween
I, too, last night was thanked and then wished a Happy Halloween by nearly
everyone of the fifty or more trick or treaters who knocked on my door.
I don't recall ever having heard it before. Where did it come from?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 11:20:50 -0500
From: Steve Harris
Subject: Re: Preferred Terms
Michael Linn writes:
>
> We have had a discussion about abusive terms, but I would like to
> know more about preferred terms. What is the best way to address
> groups one is a member of.
"Colleagues".
--
Steve Harris - Eaton Corp. - Beverly, MA - vsh%etnibsd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uunet.uu.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 15:22:45 EST
From: Beth Simon
Subject: relics
I just came from teaching The Study of English and a discussion of
discourse routines/telephone conversations. Someone said "First you
dial a number." I asked, "How many of you have dial phones?" A moment
of silence, then everyone cracked up.
beth simon
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 16:17:18 EST
From: Terry Lynn Irons
Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings?
David Harnick-Shapiro writes,
> Last night was my first Hallowe'en as a homeowner.
Mine also
> Apart from a
> disappointingly low turnout
Not here--they came in by the carload: 150 kids in
little over an hour
>(anyone want several pounds of left-
> over candy? :-)
Sure!!!
> I was struck, though,
> by one thing: in addition to the recitation of "Trick or treat!"
> and "Thank you!", a number of children (more toward the 8-10 age
> range?) shouted out "Happy Hallowe'en!" as they left our door.
>
> Is saying "Happy Hallowe'en" customary in other parts of the
> country? (I grew up here, so I'm disinclined to think it a
> local custom of which I was unaware.) Maybe I just got a
> bunch of polite trick-or-treaters.
>
> (For some reason I still can't put my finger on, the way these
> kids said "Happy Hallowe'en!" reminded me of people shouting
> "Merry Christmas!" as they left a Christmas celebration. Maybe
> the September onset of Christmas advertising is having an effect...)
I noticed the same thing. Most kids walked off saying nothing, some
said thank you, some wandered through my frost bitten flowers, a little
girl skipped gaily along my stepping stone path, but the curiosity
was the six or seven who said "Happy Hallowe'en." This is Eastern
Kentucky, folks, so I don't think it is regional. I, too, suspect an
influence from advertising.
Terry
--
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 17:36:22 -0400
From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK"
Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings?
I had never thought about the custom of saying "HH," but I noticed
that I said it several times yesterday and I had to said to me several
times, including at a grocery store (clerk) and a gas stattion (also
clerk).
Bethany Dumas = dumasb!
make that dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 16:42:16 -0600
From: Michael Linn
Subject: Response to Terms
Lynn Murphy's interesting and perceptive analysis of attitude
self reference terms. But it doesn't address the regional
influence on the terms. In Minnesota, and particularly Northern
Minnesota, indigenous people of all ages resent being called
Native American. In 1979, and reaffirmed 1994, the American
Indian Affairs Council of Minnesota stated that American Indian
was the term to use in all references to indigenous people. To
see if this attitude was widely accepted, I polled the other
members of the American Indian Advisory Board, a group of
American Indian faculty, staff, students and community leaders.
Everyone strongly prefered American Indian so it does not merely
reflect the "elders being more resistant to change." None of
my colleagues here want to be called Native American. Since I
see Native American written elsewhere, I wonder if the term is
being adopted in other parts of the country. Here it certainly
boarders on being a racist term because the whites refer to
themselves as Native Americans at the boat landings when they
harass American Indians for exercising our fishing rights.
My American Indian friends here prefer to be called Anishinabe,
not colleague. As they prefer to call me Assiniboine, or other
informal names.
Michael Linn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 14:10:36 PST
From: "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,
CO"
Subject: Re: offending idioms
The term African-American referring to blacks of African heritage, reminds me
of a good friend of mine and his wife who have recently moved back to Zimbabwe.
They were both born in Northern Rhodesia about 40 years ago, before the country
became Zimbabwe. When they reached their 20's, they travelled to England and
worked there for a few years before moving to the US.
While here, he received his US citizenship, and of course considered himself a
true African-American, born in one, naturalized in the other. The twist to the
story is that Darryl, and Mattie, were descendants of British Colonialists that
had settled in in Northern Rhodesia several generations ago.
-- Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:03:03 -0600
From: Daniel S Goodman
Subject: Re: relics
On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, Beth Simon wrote:
> I just came from teaching The Study of English and a discussion of
> discourse routines/telephone conversations. Someone said "First you
> dial a number." I asked, "How many of you have dial phones?" A moment
> of silence, then everyone cracked up.
>
Some relics don't seem to bother anyone. Brooms aren't usually made out
of broom, these days. Both eyeglasses and drinking glasses can be made
out of plastic. And how long is it since anyone made marshmallows from
marshmallow plants?
But when I say "icebox" people look at me funny.
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 16:18:42 -0800
From: Janice Kammert
Subject: Re: Happy Halloween
Doesn't anyone know to say "trick or treat" anymore?
On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, Martha Howard wrote:
> I, too, last night was thanked and then wished a Happy Halloween by nearly
> everyone of the fifty or more trick or treaters who knocked on my door.
> I don't recall ever having heard it before. Where did it come from?
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 19:26:48 -0500
From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET
Subject: Re: Response to Terms
Michael Linn's comments on "Native American" vs. "American Indian"
were really interesting news to me. But what, literally, do
"Anishinabe" and "Assiniboine" mean? in what language? ADS members are
well-read, I know, but this I can't parse without help...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 19:27:00 EST
From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>
Subject: offending idioms
Did I actually see someone on ADS-L use [sic] on a singular they/them referen
ce to a singular prior reference which was unspecified for sex?
Should we rename this list MR/MS.FIDDITCH-L?
What is one to do when they dont know the sex of a prior referent?
Dennis Preston
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 19:48:43 -0500
From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET
Subject: Re: offending idioms
The Baugh & Smitherman articles in 1991 American Speech have been
mentioned several times in this discussion, but in response to Jim
Ague's comments about Rhodesian-born friends, let me quote the Baugh
article again. I'm not sure whether Ague's point was to show that
"African American" is illogical, or just to note a curiosity, but:
[Baugh, fn. 1:] "I have adopted the term 'American Slave Descendants'
(ASD) for two reasons. First, since this discussion looks at terms of
self-reference, ASD strives for terminological neutrality in a text
that must refer to Americans with African ancestors. The second
justification grows from Edmund Morris's [1989, Wash. Post ref] self-
identification as an "African American". Morris is a naturalized
American, and a white native of Kenya; he labeled himself as an
"African American" in order to mock Jesse Jackson's plea. Morris
cannot claim to be be a descendant of American slavery, and the
adopted terminology excludes people like him."
Morris's situation is of course analogous to Ague's friends', though
the motives may well be different.
Anyway, who says that terms of self-reference must be logical in any
truth-value sense? Much of lkanguage, indeed of reference, is non-
literal. Does "American Indian" refer to naturalized Bombay-born
citizens of the US? sure it COULD, but that's not what it DOES. Nor
does usage have to be symmetrical, ie you don't have to call me what
_I_ call me to satisfy any standard of truth; in fact deixis is
asymmetrical by nature. No, the whole point of address terms is
(a) to avoid confusion and
(b) to conventionally express attitudes and relationships.
By that standard, there can't really be any confusion over who
"African American" refers to; and it is now perceived as the most civil
and respectful way for non-ASD to address ASD. What have logic,
symmetry, and ASD-to-ASD preferences got to do with it? As Spike Lee
says, just "do the right thing"...
--peter patrick
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 19:51:30 -0500
From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET
Subject: Re: naming of RU486
The RU stands for the initials of the drug company, which I can't
remember offhand but it's hyphenated: "Rxxx-Uxxx", maybe
"Roussel-Uclaf" or something like that? 486, who knows...
[perhaps their computer used that brusque phrase too often?]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:08:56 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Felicitations
OK, riddle me this:
Is there a greeting, equivalent to Happy Halloween and Merry Christmas,
for the Day of the Dead (Dia de los Muertos)? If so, is there a standard
English translation, or equivalent, of the Spanish?
Birrell Walsh
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:20:10 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings?
San Francisco reporting here. Our visitors all said "Trick or Treat". A
number said "Thank you," when prompted by Mom. Three greeted our dog by
name. None said "Happy Halloween." (N = about 15, I'd say.)
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:25:51 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: NEW: POS302-L - Race/Ethnicity Book Review List (fwd)
OK, folks - you know who you are! Go get 'em
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 15:58:44 CST
From: Gary Klass
To: Multiple recipients of list NEW-LIST
Subject: NEW: POS302-L - Race/Ethnicity Book Review List
POS302-L on listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ilstu.edu
POS302-L is a discussion list constructed for the Race, Ethnicity and
Social Inequality seminar to be held for the second time this Spring
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The discussion on the list consists of book reviews and commentaries
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To subscribe to POS302-L send a message to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ilstu.edu
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The new books on the list for the Spring 1995 semester are:
* Thomas Sowell, RACE AND CULTURE: A WORLD
* James Crawford, HOLD YOUR TONGUE
* Ruth Sidel, BATTLING BIAS
* Dana Takagi, THE RETREAT FROM RACE
* Stephen CORNELL, THE RETURN OF THE NATIVE
* Vine Deloria and Clifford M. Lytle, THE NATIONS WITHIN
* Nathan McCall, MAKES ME WANNA HOLLER
* Ellis Cose, THE RAGE OF A PRIVILEGED CLASS
* Mitchell Duneier, SLIM'S TABLE
* Ruth Frankenberg, WHITE WOMEN, RACE MATTERS
* Douglas S. Massey and Nancy Denton, AMERICAN APARTHEID
* Robert D. Bullard, ed., UNEQUAL PROTECTION
* Jared Taylor, PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS
* R. Feagin and Melvin P. Sikes, LIVING WITH RACISM
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:51:31 -0500
From: Jesse T Sheidlower
Subject: Re: Happy Halloween
>
> I, too, last night was thanked and then wished a Happy Halloween by nearly
> everyone of the fifty or more trick or treaters who knocked on my door.
> I don't recall ever having heard it before. Where did it come from?
>
I personally find this quite odd--the fact that it strikes some people
as unusual, that is.
I don't have any great insight based on exhaustive corpus analysis or
anything like that. All I can say is that "Happy Halloween" is as familiar
to me as "Merry Christmas," "Happy New Year," or anything else. I'm sure
that I used it as a child and ever since (when the occasion arises).
I'm from and remain in New York, if that helps.
Jesse Sheidlower
Random House Reference
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 11:17:41 GMT
From: "Warren A. Brewer"
Subject: Relics
My favorite "relic" is telephone terminology. We still say, "Your
phone's off the hook," "Hang up and redial." I've never even seen
an old-fashioned telephone where the receiver had to be hung up on a
hook, except on tv or in movies. Haven't used a dial since I can't
remember when. Suppose this is semantic shift with loss of original
referent.
Cf. to ship goods by plane/truck/train, as well as by boat still.
To (set) sail
Subject: Re: Happy Halloween
From the New Haven, CT front: The party I was co-escorting (assorted
Status: RO
kids ages 7 to 12), and others we overlapped with, standardly employed "Happy
Hallowe'en", as on previous years within memory. It's not used instead of
"Trick or Treat" (which I have a feeling is pretty opaque to kids anymore),
but instead of or alongside "Thanks", AFTER the goodies have made their way
into the sacks.
Larry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 03:51:04 CST
From: salikoko mufwene
Subject: Re: offending idioms
In all respect, Professor Lancaster, I don't think you are responding to my
contribution to the discussion that was going on some time ago.
Sali.
Salikoko S. Mufwene
University of Chicago
Dept. of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 1994 to 1 Nov 1994
***********************************************
There are 35 messages totalling 784 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Hallowe'en greetings? (2)
2. Response to Terms
3. NEW: POS302-L - Race/Ethnicity Book Review List (fwd)
4. who is african american (4)
5. offending idioms (6)
6. Preferred Terms (2)
7. Relics (5)
8. new york city and upstate
9. dia de los muertos (6)
10. HT
11. relics
12.
13. Happy Halloween
14. set out
15. TESOL Job
16. Judy's Carbon Copy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:02:23 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings?
My wife was peradventure in Arlington VA last night, first escorting a
squad of trick-or-treating young, and then receiving them when they came
to her hosts' house.
She reports that she heard HH in both situations, from both kids and
householders.
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:06:17 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: Response to Terms
On Tue, 1 Nov 1994 PPATRICK%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU wrote:
> Michael Linn's comments on "Native American" vs. "American Indian"
> were really interesting news to me. But what, literally, do
> "Anishinabe" and "Assiniboine" mean? in what language? ADS members are
> well-read, I know, but this I can't parse without help...
>
Well, related (sort of) is the fact that both "Navajo" and "Apache" are
hispanicizations of what the Pueblos called the peoples in question, both
of whom call themselves "Dine'" in their own Athebascan languages...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 00:18:40 -0800
From: THOMAS CLARK
Subject: Re: NEW: POS302-L - Race/Ethnicity Book Review List (fwd)
On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, Birrell Walsh wrote:
> OK, folks - you know who you are! Go get 'em
>
[snip]
Thank you Mr. Walsh. I'd read six of these, but will get busy on the
rest. Vine Deloria was especially good, don't you think?
Cheers,
tlc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL
From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: who is african american
did anyone else see the article in the chronicle of higher ed a few
months ago about a white guy who checked "african american" on his
application to law school (at johns hopkins, i think)? his paternal
grandparents are white zambians, so he reasoned that he could count
as "african american" since he can trace his family tree, rather
recently, into africa. the school accepted him, then noticed that he
had checked "white" on his financial aid form, found out he was
indeed of european stock, and rescinded his acceptance. he's suing,
claiming that they must've just accepted him because they thought
he was black. they say they'd do the same to anyone who answered
their forms inconsistently. he says it wasn't inconsistent--
"african american" makes no reference to race.
lynne
______________________________________________________________________
M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za
Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340
University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030
Johannesburg 2050 South Africa
"Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL
From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: offending idioms
bob lancaster said:
> Of course, this sounds great, and civility and good manners are the foundation
> of a society worth living in. But its universality here is disturbing. Are
> we truly barred from any language that anyone might find unpleasant? No
> one can feel good about being crippled, but should we really expunge the word
> from the vocabulary? Do we stop reading Shakespeare and Chaucer, or Bowdlerize
> them? Many people without hair don't like to hear the work "bald." What do we
> call them? Hair Challenged? It is all too possible to sanitize language
> until it's essentially dead, and it seems to me we're well on the way.
i think that this is missing the point of sali's claim and the issues
that i raised that he was responding to. no one said anything about
deleting words from the language. we were speaking of the value
judgments that go into making dictionary usage labels. my
interpretation of sali's call for civility and politeness boils down
to: some people are more offended by some words (for some reasons)
than others. some words (e.g., "nigger") are given special status by
outgroup members as the "really bad words", but other words can be
used just as harmfully, sometimes through thoughtlessness. thus,
it's not enough to have a list of bad words cited for their
horrificness by the mainstream culture. somethings have to be done
on a case-by-case basis, and the mainstream culture is a bad gauge of
what offends people who are, in some of their facets, outside of
the mainstream.
lynne
______________________________________________________________________
M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za
Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340
University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030
Johannesburg 2050 South Africa
"Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 01:32:30 PST
From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA"
Subject: Re: who is african american
I know that biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race."
Is there a another use of the term "race" other than in bigotry (and
government)? This is a serious question -- no humor this time.
Chuck Coker
CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu
PS: I was accepted into college because of "Native American," I believe.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 03:31:40 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: Preferred Terms
M. Lynne Murphy mentioned the hyphen in 'African-American'. I remember that
in the late 60s Chicanos objected to the hyphen in 'Mexican-American',
saying they didn't appreciate being labeled as hyphenated Americans. It
seemed to me that these comments, along with the general tendency to omit
the old-fashioned hyphen, speeded up acceptance of lots of hyphenless
forms in print media by the early 1970s. Now it's rare for a student to
know the old rules of hyphenation of compound modifiers etc.
DMLance
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 03:36:45 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: Relics
Joan L-W's comments about CDs etc. reminded me of an interchange I had
at Sears while looking at cable-ready VCRs. One model was labeled "hi-fi"
and I wondered what that meant in this (commercial) context. In this
type of audio machinery the term refers to "surround sound" that feeds
4 speakers if you have them. I happened to hear the very first stereo
broadcast -- in early 1953, when the FM station in Woburn and an AM station
in Boston simulcast the two channels of stereo recordings. Such fun stuff
as a train running through the room, or through the wall between two rooms
in the place where I was. At that time the term 'high fidelity' was used
for monaural recordings that were produced by technology that produced a
"flat curve," that is, the same relative loudness for frequencies from 20 to
20,000 Hz. When stereo recordings (and phonographs) came in a few years
later, the term 'hi-fi' was popularly applied to stereo recordings (and
equipment), in contrast to monaural. London Records were proud of their
new technology, which they called 'ffrr' for "full frequency-range response."
Placement of microphones in stereo recording added complications to how
'ffrr' might be achieved. At any rate, London's ffrr hi-fi recordings
were consiered "lo-fi" within a couple of years after they were produced.
And now we have 'hi-fi' taking on another shift. An irony was that many of
the stereo recordings (and equipment) were in fact lo-fi, but the general
public did not understand enough about the technology to make a distinction
between lo-fi hi-fi stuff and hi-fi mono (classical) recordings. This all
happened as Elvis was loosening up his pelvis in preparation for the now-
famous assault on American culture. I don't know why I ran on and on. DMLance
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL
From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: who is african american
> I know that biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race."
> Is there a another use of the term "race" other than in bigotry (and
> government)? This is a serious question -- no humor this time.
>
some physical anthropologists are interested in figuring out about
"races"--but i believe their use of the term is somewhat different
from the popular use, and their interests are often highjacked for
political reasons. but, the relevant thing is that the
caucasoid/mongoloid/negroid classification was only ever one of a
number of conflicting theories, but it got popularized in a way that
other theories (including that there's only one race) never did. the
interest in physical anthropology is to trace the origins of the
species.
did anyone else see the program "ape man" on arts and entertainment
network? (a friend sent me the one re: language.) it discussed the
possibility that physical differences from the rest of humanity in
europeans (protrusion of the nose, in particular) are partly
accounted for by the hypothesis that homo-whatever (can't remember
my ancestors' names) interbred with the neanderthals in europe
(neanderthals have only been found in europe). this would, in part,
account for the disappearance of neanderthals. and, of course,
argues against nazi notions that the "aryans" are "pure". also gives
me a whole new take on calling someone a neanderthal.
lynne
______________________________________________________________________
M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za
Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340
University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030
Johannesburg 2050 South Africa
"Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 06:47:52 EST
From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: Preferred Terms
From: NAME: David Bergdahl
FUNC: English
TEL: (614) 593-2783
To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX
Among my list of preferred terms is "New York" or "New York, N.Y." for New
YorkCity. The latter has always seemed to me a barbarism, used by people who
misread New York City Police Dept as [[[New York City]Police]Dept].
DAVID
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL
From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: new york city and upstate
RE: > From: NAME: David Bergdahl
>
> Among my list of preferred terms is "New York" or "New York, N.Y." for New
> YorkCity. The latter has always seemed to me a barbarism, used by people who
> misread New York City Police Dept as [[[New York City]Police]Dept].
>
i completely disagree! as an upstate new yorker, i hate it when "new
york" is used to mean "ny,ny" (but the latter is almost never used,
and sounds hickish when used). us upstaters already resent the
downstaters for a number of reasons (e.g., perceptions that all our
taxes and water and hydroelectric power go there), so using "new
york" in a way that doesn't include us only adds to the resentment.
it's not that big a resentment, but it does make it harder for me
to have any kind of regional identity. people assume that when i say
i'm from NY i'm from the city (of course, i usually say "upstate NY"
or "NY state" to avoid that--but why should i have to say NY state
in order that the people from the city don't have to say NY city?
"NY state" sounds like a football team.)
which leads to the topic of "upstate" and "downstate". to us up
rochester-way, anything from the catskills south is "downstate" but
to the NYCers, westchester co. (commuting distance) is "upstate". (i
frequently have to explain to people that no, being from upstate ny
doesn't mean you get to benefit from the culture of the city. it's
a7-8 hour drive for me.) the relativity of these terms is
interesting, but not as interesting as in illinois, where someone
from dekalb or rockford (NW of chicago) can be from "downstate".
i'm spending way too much time responding to the ADS list! stop
talking about things that interest me, while i'm still remembering
to eat and sleep!
lynne
______________________________________________________________________
M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za
Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340
University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030
Johannesburg 2050 South Africa
"Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:40:51 EST
From: David Muschell
Subject: Re: offending idioms
BALD: FOLLICLY CHALLENGED
SHORT: VERTICALLY CHALLENGED
FAT: GRAVITATIONALLY CHALLENGED
SKINNY: GASTRONOMICALLY CHALLENGED
STUPID: CEREBRALLY CHALLENGED
LIAR: CONFUTATIONALLY CHALLENGED
BIGOT: DOGMATICALLY CHALLENGED
LAZY: ENERGY CHALLENGED
CHEATER: PSEUDO-CHALLENGED
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:37:45 HOE
From: Alberto RIO
Subject: dia de los muertos
In Spain we say d'ia de los santos inocentes, in memory of those Bethlem chil
children murdered when Jesus was born (they were innocent and, heresy, saints).
Yours,
Alberto RIO Fax.: +34 1 397-8599
Servicio de Cartografia, modulo de Geografia Phone: +34 1 397-3894
Universidad Autonoma de Madrid e-mail:
Campus de Cantoblanco riogaral[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.sdi.uam.es
E-28049 Madrid, Spain riogaral at emduam11
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 09:45:15 -0400
From: Bob Lancaster
Subject: offending idioms
Regarding that last posting of mine on "offending idioms" and "African
Americans," the e-mail address was wrong. Obviously, it should be
Colagte:EDU. Also, I apologize to anyone subject to alopecia. Such
persons are clearly "tonsorially challenged"--"hair" is a concrete noun,
and those who have none might find it offensive.
In the event that anyone might be thinking of referring to me as a
"conservative" (approbrious or not according to your inclinations), I am in
fact a card-carrying member of ACLU, an authentic bleeding-heart liberal
who considers laissez-faire market economics a PC word for peonage.
Bob Lancaster
SUNY-emeritus. English
slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:15:15 -0400
From: Bob Lancaster
Subject: HT
Nobody seems to have mentioned what I thought was the standard usage for HT,
"well brought up." It's the only one I heard when I was being brought up.
Bob Lancaster
SUNY-emeritus, English
slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:53:30 CST
From: salikoko mufwene
Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings?
In Message Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:20:10 -0800,
Birrell Walsh writes:
>San Francisco reporting here. Our visitors all said "Trick or Treat". A
>number said "Thank you," when prompted by Mom. Three greeted our dog by
>name. None said "Happy Halloween." (N = about 15, I'd say.)
In what I observed in Chicago, people said "Happy Halloween" in lieu of
"bye-bye." My daughter, as several other children I saw that night, would
say "trick or treat" at the beginning of the exchange, as soon as the door
was opened.
Sali.
Salikoko S. Mufwene
University of Chicago
Dept. of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:54:06 CST
From: salikoko mufwene
Subject: Re: offending idioms
In Message Tue, 1 Nov 1994 14:10:36 PST,
"Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO"
writes:
>While here, he received his US citizenship, and of course considered himself a
>true African-American, born in one, naturalized in the other. The twist to the
>story is that Darryl, and Mattie, were descendants of British Colonialists that
>had settled in in Northern Rhodesia several generations ago.
I did not know that in proposing that "African American" be used instead
of "Black American" the intention was to appropriate "African" for 'black'
only! The bottom line in this pseudo-intellectual insanity is: why should
you care how a particular group or subset thereof wants to be identified?
Who is trying to legislate language here: the user/speaker or the linguist?
Sali.
Salikoko S. Mufwene
University of Chicago
Dept. of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:31:06 -0500
From: Steve Harris
Subject: Re: Relics
Donald M. Lance writes:
>
> .... One model was labeled "hi-fi"
> and I wondered what that meant in this (commercial) context. In this
> type of audio machinery the term refers to "surround sound" that feeds
> 4 speakers if you have them.
My understanding of "hi-fi vhs" means the audio portion is stored
_with_ the video data, in the higher bandwidth diagonal "stripes" along
the tape.
Normal vhs stores the audio linearly along the edge of the tape.
Hi-fi also stores the audio linearly so the tape can be played on
a non-hi-fi vcr.
I suppose four tracks of audio data could be stored; my "hi-fi" vcr
only does stereo.
/////////
Subject: Re: who is african american
On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
[snip]
>
> did anyone else see the program "ape man" on arts and entertainment
> network? (a friend sent me the one re: language.) it discussed the
> possibility that physical differences from the rest of humanity in
> europeans (protrusion of the nose, in particular) are partly
> accounted for by the hypothesis that homo-whatever (can't remember
> my ancestors' names) interbred with the neanderthals in europe
> (neanderthals have only been found in europe). this would, in part,
> account for the disappearance of neanderthals. and, of course,
> argues against nazi notions that the "aryans" are "pure". also gives
> me a whole new take on calling someone a neanderthal.
>
> lynne
It has always seemed to me (as a completely unqualified observer,
therefore licensed to hold forth) that the type called 'Alpine' in
Europe, and found in E. France, S. Germany et partibus proximis, looked a
bit like our friend H. neanderthalis. Did I hear correctly that H. Nea.
had larger brains than modern humans?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 11:39:13 -0600
From: Judy Kuster
Subject: Re: Relics
I asked someone for a carbon copy of something this morning.
I guess that one dates me!
Judy
Kuster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax1.mankato.msus.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:00:59 -0800
From: Judith Rascoe
Subject: Re: relics
I just hate that patient look I get when I admire somebody's new "stereo".
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:09:00 CST
From: Edward Callary
Subject:
Thanks to all who have written in response to my request
for information on the origin of the name of RU486. They
iterate the two stories which I have heard: first that
RU stand for the lab which developed the drug: Roussel
Uclaf of France; second that RU-486 is wordplay on they
spelling: Are You For 86; 86 for killing, stopping,
halting, aborting. Reminds one of the name of the computer
HAL in 2001. Derived cleverly from IBM or not?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:09:30 -0800
From: Judith Rascoe
Subject: Re: Relics
Hm. We can't very well say "hang up and retouch" yet. Although (speaking as
a newspaper retoucher's child) retouching is now done by computers and must
be called "morphing" or something like that by now.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:37:08 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: Happy Halloween
I took an informal survey at lunch a little while ago and found nobody
who saw anything unusual about saying "Happy Halloween." They all (six
or eight people) thought it was odd that anybody would find it odd.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:47:45 HOE
From: Alberto RIO
Subject: set out
Intern'l Herald Tribune, Nov 2, 1994, page 3d, says:
'A US spacecraft set out Tuesday on a mission to study charged particles
that continously hurle from the sun and can black out cities and interrupt
communications. The unmanned vehicle was launched from the Cape Canaveral Air
Station in Florida, 10 miles from where the space shuttle Atlantis awaited a
launching set for Thursday.'
See 'launched' at the second sentence. Yours,
Alberto RIO Fax.: +34 1 397-8599
Servicio de Cartografia, modulo de Geografia Phone: +34 1 397-3894
Universidad Autonoma de Madrid e-mail:
Campus de Cantoblanco riogaral[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.sdi.uam.es
E-28049 Madrid, Spain riogaral at emduam11
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:23:16 +0100
From: Fuencisla Garcia-Bermejo Giner
Subject: Re: dia de los muertos
I believe that is another day, I mean "dia de los santos inocentes", the equiva
equivalent of your fool's day. Here in Salamanca it is "Dia de los Santos"
or "dia Dia de todos los Santos". It is a day of remembrance for our dead on
es,
the day in which we visit cementeries and clean grgraves and tombstones. It is
also dthe day in which whe sae have marzipan cakes called "huesos de santo
" ("gonesanint's
(saints' bones) and "buenuelos" (cream or chocolate stuffed puffsp
uffs). I The day before, Oc
October 31st is "dia de las animas" in which we prayy for those souls that
are still in purgatory. The re is to my nknowledge no egreeting expression
equivalent to your "Happy Halloween" or "Trick or Treat" though I ustm must
say
that in the past four ofr foive years pubs and discos have started to have
Halloween parties to cater to the nee"needs" of the increasing number of Amer
ican
studients that come to the special courses of our Span
ish courses of my university and most young
Salamanca people know what Halloween is.
Fool's day is April 28th, I believe.
Maria F. Garcia-Bermejo Giner
Deptl. Lengua y Lit. Inglesas y Lit. Norteamericana
Universidad de Salamanca.
37008 Salamanca, Spain.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:27:59 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: offending idioms
On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, salikoko mufwene wrote:
[Much more than this, but I have snatched out of context the following;]
> Who is trying to legislate language here: the user/speaker or the linguist?
>
> Sali.
For once I can answer one of the good doctor's questions.
Whoso is trying to legislate language is always, without exception, without
regard to race or gender, what the Welsh call a wmbb.
And since it never works, the wmbb - the wellmeaning busybody (you'll
kinow it by its cry) - is forever redoubling the effort, alas.
Apparently ya canna control what people say, and trying mostly annoys
them. I kinow - I've tried, and grew very frustrated, and made enemies...
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:35:10 -0800
From: Guadalupe Valdes
Subject: Re: dia de los muertos
There is an important difference between el dia de los muertos and el dia
de los inocentes.
In Mexico, like in Spain, we celebrate el dia de los inocentes on the 28 of
december. It is actually our "april fools day" a day in which many attempts
are made to fool happy innocents who fall for tricks and jokes.
El dia de los muertos is all souls day.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:49:38 CST
From: Barbara Need
Subject: Re: Relics
re: carbon copy
You do know that cc: in e-mail messages stands for "carbon copy"?
Barbara Need
Linguistics--U Chicago
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:37:54 +0100
From: Fuencisla Garcia-Bermejo Giner
Subject: Re: dia de los muertos
Fool's day is DECEMBETt R 28th, sorry.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:42:46 EST
From: MICHAEL K PARSONS
Subject: Re: offending idioms
The term "African American" is little more than the PC solution to the
responsibility that White America has in perpetuating racism. The term is,
by its very nature, exclusionary. While pride in ones heritage is a good
thing, we ought not cover up covert racism with candy coated closed doors we
call "multicultural acceptance." The problem of racism in the United States
will never be truly addressed until we quit hiding behind walls of terminology.
Michael Parsons
mkpars01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-stu.edu
Morehead State University
Morehead, Ky 40351
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 17:17:33 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: TESOL Job
A month or so ago I posted our official announcement for a position
(Assistant Professor) in TESOL/AmLit -- a very brief announcement in
the exact wording sent to the MLA job list. My department head told
me not long ago that almost all of the applicants so far have been from
people who are primarily interested in American Lit and have only a
modicum of TESOL interest/experience. That's a problem since our primary
need is for a TESOL person who can also teach other courses in linguistics
and ideally can teach AmLit from time to time. If you know of any likely
candidates, please encourage them to apply. I don't have a copy of the
official ad handy at the moment but can find it if anybody wants to see
it. What I'm writing right now is not any kind of "official" word -- I
assume it's legal for me to be writing this unofficially. The deadline
is sometime around the middle of this month. We'll interview at MLA.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:03:53 -0800
From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA"
Subject: Re: Judy's Carbon Copy
My e-mail has a CC: in the header, does that still stand for Carbon Copy,
or is it now Computer Copy, or something else?
Chuck Coker <= NOT what CC: means
CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:28:14 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: dia de los muertos
On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Guadalupe Valdes wrote:
> There is an important difference between el dia de los muertos and el dia
> de los inocentes.
>
> In Mexico, like in Spain, we celebrate el dia de los inocentes on the 28 of
> december. It is actually our "april fools day" a day in which many attempts
> are made to fool happy innocents who fall for tricks and jokes.
>
> El dia de los muertos is all souls day.
>
Yes, and if our California experience is any guide, it will soon be an
important day for non-Mexicans too. It seems to be spreading, filling
the same need shown by the phenomenal sales of Kubler-Ross and of the
Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. Gringo culture (an Irishman, I will
NOT be calling it anglo) seems to have no way of honoring the dead except
lugubriously.
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:39:29 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: dia de los muertos
So:
Date SPAIN MEXICO USAGringo
Oct. 31 The Dead --- (Monsters)
Nov. 1 Saints Saints ---
Nov. 2 --- The Dead ---
Is this the right calendar?
Of course, Halloween is Samhain, one of the four Celtic sacred days, so
'tis no surprise it did not survive in Spain. St. Patrick, of Ireland
fame, was a Spanish Celt. But the Muslim invasion probably wiped Spanish
Celtic customs even more thoroughly than did the Anglo-Saxon/Viking
invasions of the British Isles.
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Nov 1994 to 2 Nov 1994
**********************************************
There are 14 messages totalling 386 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Judy's Carbon Copy
2. offending idioms (3)
3. All Souls' Day/All Saints' Day (3)
4. PC in the NY Times
5. political correctness at ncte
6. American Culture and All Saints & All Souls Days
7. who is african american (2)
8. Hallowe'en greetings?
9. new york city and upstate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 23:03:56 EST
From: Larry Horn
Subject: Re: Judy's Carbon Copy
The cc in e-mailers is indeed a direct descendant of the initialism for
'carbon copy', although I wonder whether it (and indeed the cc at the bottom
of letters) hasn't been reanalyzed by many (especially of the post-carbon
generations) as being a plural of 'copy', as in mss. for 'manuscripts', pp for
'pages', ff., etc. I'll ask my Words & Meaning class and see what they
guess. (There must be some transparency for some writers, since one
occasionally sees 'xc' for 'xerox copy' instead.)
--Larry
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 01:27:45 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: offending idioms
PC NUT: REALITY CHALLENGED
DMLance
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:32:37 EST
From: Wayne Glowka
Subject: Re: offending idioms
Isn't PC just another form of the old middle class tendency toward
euphemism, you know, the kind that gave us _white meat_ and _dark meat_ and
_gentleman cow_? PC always comes across as quaint to folks who lived on
the wrong side of the expressway and know even worse terms than the
apparently innocent ones vilified by the PC.
Sometimes PC and euphemism in general can backfire: I have run into people
in Texas and Georgia who refer in the singular to a descendant of African
slaves as _a minority_--"A minority just came in here and gave me some
trouble about . . . ." The whole euphemism is lost in the sarcastic tone
of voice that frames the word. Further, I've just read about a company
that tried to produce optimism among workers by referring to problems in
production or marketing as _opportunities_. Workers began using the term
_opportunity_ in ironic ways: "I hear that he had an opportunity with his
car this morning on the way to work. Yeah, he blew out his transmission."
An educator experiencing wellness but awaiting the opportunity of passing,
Wayne Glowka
Professor of English
Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
Georgia College
Milledgeville, GA 31061
912-453-4222
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:44:48 -0400
From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK"
Subject: All Souls' Day/All Saints' Day
I have been surprised by some recent posts that appear to me to
suggest that nowhere in the "anglo/gringo" world is there any
occasion for honoring the dead. Since we are in the week of All Souls'
and All Saints' days, I want to point out that the Christian church (at
least, its Roman and Anglican/Episcopal manifestations) provides
two such occasions. I append a brief comment extracted from a post
on the list ANGLICAN (name of author omitted to preserve
anonymity, not to deprive of credit):
"Here's another stab at answering your query about All Saints' Day
and All Souls' Day to add to [name omitted], since the position of the
U.S. Episcopal Church is somewhat different from that of the Church
of England. Both days find their way into the U.S. calendar, with All
Saints being one of the seven principal feasts that take precedence
over any other day or observance (The others are Easter, Ascension,
Pentecost, Trinity, Christmas, and Epiphany). All Saints'
commemorates the heroes of the faith, known and unknown, who
have gone before us and are a part of the great cloud of witnesses in
the heavenly realm who surround us and support us. All Souls' Day,
or Commemoration of All Faithful Departed, November 2 in the U.S.
calendar, has its own propers set out in the Book of Lesser Feasts and
Fasts and is a day set aside for prayers for all the dead. Prayers for
the dead are considered appropriate by the U.S. Book of Common
Prayer; they were not countenanced, I believe, in the 1662 BCP, still
the official liturgy of the Church of England. Simon says Anglicans
don't do Purgatory. Well, no, but we Americans come pretty close,
viz., the following from the U.S. burial office: "Father of all, we pray
to you for those we love, but see no longer: Grant them your peace;
let light perpetual shine upon them; and, in your loving wisdom and
almighty power, work in them the good purpose of your perfect will;
through Jesus Christ our Lord." We also, since the adoption of the
1979 BCP, ask the prayers of the saints, once a frowned-on activity,
viz.: "O God, the King of saints, we praise and glorify your holy Name
for all your servants who have finished their course in your faith and
fear: for the blessed Virgin Mary; for the holy patriarchs, prophets,
apostles, and martyrs; and for all your other righteous servants,
known to us and unknown; and we pray that, encouraged by their
examples, aided by their prayers, and strengthened by their
fellowship, we also may be partakers of the inheritance of the saints
in light; through the merits of your Son Jesus Christ our Lord."
Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 07:57:38 -0800
From: Judith Rascoe
Subject: Re: offending idioms
re use of mangled euphemisms: I notice "homeless" used as a singular noun
"We had a homeless sleeping behind the store" and as a collective without a
preceding 'the': "that estimate includes commuters and shoppers but doesn't
include homeless".
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:21:29 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: All Souls' Day/All Saints' Day
Now how could I, who attended an American parochial school where All
Saints was (is?) a Holy Day of Obligation, not list it?
Still, I don't think we can say it is celebrated culturally, by those for
whom religion is no particular preoccupation, as Dia de los Muertos is in
Mexico. Valid distinction, to cover my embarrassment?
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 11:46:21 -0500
From: ALICE FABER
Subject: PC in the NY Times
Well, Larry's probably beaten me to this, but this morning's New York Times
has an article about "Negro" in place names in the New York area. Apparently
there is a "Negro Brook" in northern New Jersey, and a local resident (White,
btw) wants to change the name, on grounds of its offensiveness. According the
the article, many of the place names in the NY area (and presumably elsewhere)
with "Negro" in their name were originally "Nigger X", and in the 1960's the
US Geological Service (or some other gov't agency-I don't have the article in
front of me) decreed that these should henceforward be "Negro X", and maps
were adjusted accordingly, even if local usage hasn't always. I couldn't tell
from the article whether the "Negro X" usage was offending people, or whether
it was the still-preserved "Nigger X".
Alice Faber
Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 11:33:58 -0600
From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: political correctness at ncte
I've only been reading some of this thread, because of the press of local
business. But since the discussion has turned to political correctness,
let me play Allan for a moment and invite/remind all ADS members and
participants in the ADS-L that our ADS-sponsored session at NCTE in Orlando
(Friday, Nov. 18, at 2:30) will deal with "Political Correctness, Language,
and the Classroom." Speakers will be Smokey Daniels, Vivian Davis, and me.
I don't what the others are going to talk about exactly, but I promise that
my talk will deal not only with some of the issues discussed in this forum
but also with my Nexis search of the terms political correctness and
politically correct, and with ways we can turn this issue into an
investigation of language use with our students.
Hope to see you all down in Orlando. And remember to wear your Mickey ears.
Dennis
---
Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
Department of English 217-333-2392
University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321
608 South Wright Street
Urbana, Illinois 61801
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 15:06:26 EST
From: Wayne Glowka
Subject: American Culture and All Saints & All Souls Days
The last posting about the cultural differences between North American and
Mexican celebrations of All Saints Day and All Souls Day jogged my jaded
memory and put me in a time when those days were more meaningful--days when
I was under the power of Presentation nuns from Ireland. Halloween was, of
course, Halloween--trick or treat, bubble gum in locks, water balloons, and
all the fun of grease paint and sneaking out a pillow case instead of the
dumb grocery bag my mother wanted us to use to hold our candy and bruised
mushy apples. But All Saints Day was a holiday from school, a bright sunny
southcentral Texas day to eat candy in the yard while numerous bees tried
to steal the last bit of sweetness they could before a blue norther came
down from the hill country and chased them into winter hiding. Sugar-hyped
kids would then attend evening mass with their families in the dark
November night. All Souls Day was a special dark day of repentance
following the orgy of Halloween and the brightness of the liturgical
readings of All Saints Day. It seems to me that we were allowed to stay in
the church on that day as long as we wanted in order to pray for the souls
in purgatory. The prayers were prefaced with pleas from the nuns about the
suffering going on there that could be alleviated through our efforts. Our
hands still sticky with candy, we placed them together in the gesture of
reverence and tried to help the people from the awful fire. Whew!
We didn't have picnics on dead folks' graves, but we had a cultural experience.
P.S. Our lab school here at my college cannot celebrate Halloween with the
small children because some parents object to demon worship, etc. The
children celebrate Harvest, dress up as storybook characters, and visit
offices that invite the children to come get candy.
Culture changes.
Wayne Glowka
Professor of English
Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
Georgia College
Milledgeville, GA 31061
912-453-4222
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 14:46:07 EST
From: Shani Walker
Subject: Re: who is african american
>
> I know that biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race."
> Is there a another use of the term "race" other than in bigotry (and
> government)? This is a serious question -- no humor this time.
>
> Chuck Coker
> CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu
>
> PS: I was accepted into college because of "Native American," I believe.
>
I don't know exactly what you are asking for, except to say that I am an
African-American female who does not get offended by being called this,
because I know who I am, regardless of what people call me. Labels that
society puts upon people of the minority races are only temporary...I
don't get too caught up in labels...who knows, the next thing "they"
may call us are African-Black-Negro Americans...who's to say?
Question to you: why do applications have a question regarding your
ethnic background? I know to answer the question is only optional, but
why is it asked in the first place? Do you have a theory?
Shani N. Walker
Morehead State University
Morehead, Kentucky
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 15:44:01 EST
From: BRENT D HUTCHINSON
Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings?
Here in eastern Kentucky, saying "Happy Halloween" is a pretty common
occurrence, but I think it is probably a result of the commonality of saying
"Merry Christmas," "Happy New Year," etc. Halloween is another pretty heavily recognized holiday. But I'm sure that the trick-or-treaters are polite people
as well. I mean, they were getting candy.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 18:27:03 -0600
From: Daniel S Goodman
Subject: Re: new york city and upstate
On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
> which leads to the topic of "upstate" and "downstate". to us up
> rochester-way, anything from the catskills south is "downstate" but
> to the NYCers, westchester co. (commuting distance) is "upstate". (i
> frequently have to explain to people that no, being from upstate ny
> doesn't mean you get to benefit from the culture of the city. it's
> a7-8 hour drive for me.) the relativity of these terms is
> interesting, but not as interesting as in illinois, where someone
> from dekalb or rockford (NW of chicago) can be from "downstate".
>
I never encountered the term "downstate" applied to NY State till
recently. (I grew up in Ulster County, lived a while in The City.)
When people ask where I'm from, I sometimes say I'm from the part of the
Appalachians that used to be Dutch-speaking. It shortens the explanations.
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 16:54:59 PST
From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA"
Subject: Re: who is african american
Hi, Chuck Coker here. Got the following from Shani N. Walker:
> > I know that biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race."
> > Is there a another use of the term "race" other than in bigotry (and
> > government)? This is a serious question -- no humor this time.
> >
> > Chuck Coker
> > CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu
> >
> > PS: I was accepted into college because of "Native American," I believe.
>
> I don't know exactly what you are asking for, except to say that I am an
> African-American female who does not get offended by being called this,
> because I know who I am, regardless of what people call me. Labels that
> society puts upon people of the minority races are only temporary...I
> don't get too caught up in labels...who knows, the next thing "they"
> may call us are African-Black-Negro Americans...who's to say?
> Question to you: why do applications have a question regarding your
> ethnic background? I know to answer the question is only optional, but
> why is it asked in the first place? Do you have a theory?
>
> Shani N. Walker
> Morehead State University
> Morehead, Kentucky
I don't remember what the original posting was, but I was responding to
someone else's posting in the above. That's why it appears not to make
a whole lot of sense. I think somebody said they got a job or something,
because their skin was the "right color" or something like that. (Do I
use too many words beginning with "some"?)
As far as name-calling, personally, I don't really care what I'm called;
I don't even care if it's polite or not.
About the ethnic background question, you see that more often in
government and government-related industries (schools are gov't, too,
as I am sure we're all painfully aware). I used to own a heavy-truck
repair shop in Orange, California. Because I serviced all the Roadway
Express trucks in Orange County, and Roadway hauled stuff for the feds,
etc., I was indirectly connected to the government. So I had to ask
stupid questions like ethnicity and such, so I could report to the
government that my business was an Equal Opportunity Employer and I
didn't discriminate because of race, sex, religion, ad nauseum. My
personal opinion? Can you fix trucks? Yes? You're hired, even though
you have purple (or whatever color) skin.
When I entered college, at that school there was 0.6% Native American
and Alaskan Eskimo ethnicity. (Alaskan Eskimo? What about the others,
Canada, Greenland, Siberia, etc.? Maybe they're not minorities.) I
looked good on their statistic sheets. But what the (insert favorite
word here), I got into college.
Other people might have other opinions and facts (I'm sure they do).
Maybe some of them will respond.
Comments and Flames Always Welcome,
Chuck Coker
CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu
P.S. I do computer work now. Had to get out of the truck-repair business
because there was getting to be too much government stuff; I couldn't
take it anymore. Ask your mechanic next time how come he has to charge
you so much money.
===============================================================================
There have been no dragons in my life, only small spiders and stepping in gum.
I could have coped with the dragons.
Anonymous (but wise)
===============================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 17:52:25 -0800
From: Judith Rascoe
Subject: Re: All Souls' Day/All Saints' Day
Ahem ... in my youth Nov 1, All Saints Day, was a parochial school holiday
too. Which gave a certain carefree air to Halloween and probably contributed
to the popularity of this strange occasion.
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Nov 1994 to 3 Nov 1994
**********************************************
There are 14 messages totalling 313 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Joycean epiphany RE: c.c. (*anachronym?)
2. up/down state; in/out state
3. ADS
4. offending idioms
5. political correctness at ncte
6. who is african american
7. NADS Is Now Obscene (3)
8. up down and around state
9. posting
10. new york city and upstate (3)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 12:55:13 GMT
From: "Warren A. Brewer"
Subject: Joycean epiphany RE: c.c. (*anachronym?)
Well, I never knew (in my 46 years) that c.c. meant "carbon copy"; and
ran to all my dictionaries in disbelief.
For some reason, I had always read it as "courtesy copy". Which of
course never caused the relic-Angst that the anachronym (just made that
up) _carbon copy_ might have caused.
---Wab.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 23:16:30 -0600
From: Joan Livingston-Webber
Subject: up/down state; in/out state
I have been told about, though I haven't actually heard it said,
that in Nebraska the Omaha-Lincoln area (occasionally referred to as
Linoma) is "instate" and everywhere else is "outstate" and I
was also told that it would not be well received to refer to
the panhandle as "outstate" to someone from there. I haven't
inquired further, and all of the natives I know are natives of
Omaha anyway.
--
Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."
-Clifford Geertz
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 23:07:54 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: ADS
My friend Dan Alford is a linguist of the Cheyenne language. He's
subscribing, but asked that I pass this on to you.
Birrell
---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 09:01:13 -0800
From: Dan Alford
To: birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]well.com
Subject: re: ADS (sent also to your bitnet address, so resending)
Interesting fwd. I remember what Sakej said once about this topic -- "I
don't like the word 'Indian'. Too many 'i's (eyes)."
Of course, "Anishinabe" (for sure) and "Assiniboine" (probably) both mean
simply 'The People'. In fact, it's an almost sure bet all through North
America, and even generally true throughout the world, that whenever you
unpack an indigenous people's name for themselves, it means things like:
the people, the ones whose are like us, etc.
I know Anishinabe is Algonquian, and Assiniboine is either Algonquian or
Siouxan (Xkhotan?) -- it's really hard to tell sometimes because although
these are seen to be two major language families, the Cheyennes used to
tell me that there is a deep relationship between the Cheyennes and Lakhotas
that doesn't show up in the whiteman categories. This perhaps had to do with
the Cheyennes already being on the Plains when the Xkhotas arrived, and the
Cheyennes taught them the "Sundance" and other spiritual ways of the Plains,
and there was early intermarriage.
Of course that's only one of many mysteries lurking beneath the surface
of Invader categories of The People. For instance, the way I hear it from
those who live in Nova Scotia, the *Pre-Proto-Algonquian crowd scooted
south during the last ice-age (or the last gasp of the mini-ice-age 8K
years ago or so? -- they're not real good at linear time!) and vacationed
in Mexico while they waited it out; then headed back north and had to
sing the trees back into existence where the glaciers had bulldozed them).
Now I don't particularly care whether you believe all the details or not,
but what is being said here is very important to anthropological linguists:
there is an unsuspected Algonquian influence on the languages of Mexico
(but the Algonquians were *always* way up north, weren't they?). It's just
a matter of what kind of time depth you're willing to look at. If I were
looking into a claim like this, I'd start with the startling similarities
between Mayan and Mikmaq (aka Micmac) glyphs.
Well, more later. I thought I'd saved your message with *subscribe* info,
but it is lost in the electronic haze. Pls send me it again. You may want
to fwd my above to the list, a shadow of my coming!!
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 23:09:10 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: offending idioms
On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Judith Rascoe wrote:
> re use of mangled euphemisms: I notice "homeless" used as a singular noun
> "We had a homeless sleeping behind the store" and as a collective without a
> preceding 'the': "that estimate includes commuters and shoppers but doesn't
> include homeless".
>
This means it has the same pseudo-partitive usage that is accorded the
word "staff" in social service agencies.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 23:11:28 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: political correctness at ncte
Sure hope Sali is going to be there!
Hardly a fight without him....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 23:17:44 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: who is african american
On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Shani Walker wrote:
> Question to you: why do applications have a question regarding your
> ethnic background? I know to answer the question is only optional, but
> why is it asked in the first place? Do you have a theory?
>
> Shani N. Walker
> Morehead State University
> Morehead, Kentucky
>
Our registrar told me that the government required it, so they could
prevent racism. No pschitte, really! And when I declined to fill it in,
she did.
Best laiud plans of mice and men, eh?
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 09:01:51 EST
From: Wayne Glowka
Subject: NADS Is Now Obscene
Now that "nads" is a commonly heard reduction of "gonads," I kind of
chuckle every time I run across our beloved newsletter (_Newsletter of the
American Dialect Society_) with its bold-faced acronym _NADS_ staring up at
me out of the chaos of my desk.
I need a day off.
Wayne Glowka
Professor of English
Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
Georgia College
Milledgeville, GA 31061
912-453-4222
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 09:32:21 -0600
From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: NADS Is Now Obscene
>Now that "nads" is a commonly heard reduction of "gonads,"....
>
>
>Wayne Glowka
So Wayne, you're saying NADS is a foreclipping?
Guess I need a week off!
Dennis
--
Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
Department of English 217-333-2392
University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321
608 South Wright Street
Urbana, Illinois 61801
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 08:09:00 CST
From: Edward Callary
Subject: up down and around state
It's pretty well-known that in Illinois everything except
the Chicago area is 'downstate.' Chicago metro, though, is
not usually called 'upstate.' Watching state election returns,
the Chicago announcers have, though, a somewhat elastic
definition, with some areas - such as far southern Ill -
more 'downstate' that others, but everything outside the
'collar counties' is downstate and somewhat suspect. The
state tourist authority some years ago promoted instate
tourism with the slogan 'just outside Chicago, there's a
place called Illinois.' Say no more.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 08:38:00 CST
From: Edward Callary
Subject: posting
Sorry for the last posting. I haven't been getting
msgs in sequence lately; the earlier msg was just
delivered.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 13:02:00 -0500
From: Ernest Scatton
Subject: Re: NADS Is Now Obscene
"Now that 'nads' is a commonly heard reduction of 'gonad'"....
Now?! It was in common use in the mid to late fifties in the Phila
suburbs (western, to be real exact). One of my friends submitted it as
the school nickname for a new high school they opened up in our neighborhood...
he wanted to be able to cheer...go.....
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:33:56 -0800
From: THOMAS CLARK
Subject: Re: new york city and upstate
On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Daniel S Goodman wrote:
[snip]
> recently. (I grew up in Ulster County, lived a while in The City.)
West of Denver, "The City" is always San Francisco. Randy at the Tamony
Collection has a BUNDLE of info demonstrating the historicity of that
sobriquet.
Cheers,
tlc
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 14:32:32 -0600
From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: new york city and upstate
I'm from New York City. Queens, to be exact. And when we went to
Manhattan in the 1950s we said we were going "to the City." But if someone
asked if I was from the City I would say yes, since Queens is part of the
city. We were well aware of the ambiguity, and often had to explain which
"the City" we meant on that particular occasion. Everything else was
upstate or on the island (Long Island). Or, of course, Jersey. Brooklyn
was somewhat vague. Though it was attached to Queens, it remained a
strange place we went to only to visit those relatives who were too old to
leave. One always feared attacks by overzealous Dodgers fans. Even though
Queens was on the island, we didn't claim it as being "on the island," a
phrase that usu. referred to Nassau and Suffolk counties, which were
outside the city, in all senses.
The people from upstate referred to NYC as the city, so far as I can
recall, though of course being from the city, I spoke to very few people
who were really from upstate. One of my teachers in college grew up
upstate. He remembered being told "the City" was as closed to Hell as one
could get on this earth, and his first visit to the City, when he saw steam
rising from the manhole covers, confirmed the worst he had been told.
Our local subway stop, a 20-minute walk from my house in Forest Hills, was
in the part of our neighborhood we called The Village. You had to go to the
Village to get the subway to go to the city. Once in the city we usually
went to the Village, meaning Greenwich Village, quite a different place
from our own "the Village" in every sense, including the steam coming up
from the manholes.
Those were the days.
Now that I've been in the Midwest for over 25 years, I know that what
Mephistopheles replied when Faustus asked him where hell was (in Marlowe's
play) is true.
Dennis
--
Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
Department of English 217-333-2392
University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321
608 South Wright Street
Urbana, Illinois 61801
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:11:54 EST
From: Vicki Rosenzweig
Subject: Re: new york city and upstate
I've heard "downstate" occasionally: for example, here in
New York City, Cornell University has a school called
Downstate Medical. But it's not a term New York City or
Long Island residents would use to refer to ourselves:
we're "New Yorkers" (specifying that we're from "New York
City" or "the City" [and yes, I'm aware of the arrogance
of that one] if appropriate) or "Long Islanders.
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com
New York, NY
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Nov 1994 to 4 Nov 1994
**********************************************
There are 24 messages totalling 599 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. "Native" Names
2. new york city and upstate (4)
3. "them" singulars (8)
4. Relics (2)
5. Boulder Dam
6. NADS Is Now Obscene
7. special issues of names
8. Algonquian et al. (3)
9. blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa
10. Kingsbury
11. blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa - cont'd
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 00:53:56 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: "Native" Names
Thanks to Marquette, the names we use for the Missouri Indians (and once
used for the river) were Algonquin forms, because Marquette asked his
Peoria guides "Who are those people?" and "What is that river?" Of course
the Illini weren't about to render answers in Siouan "dialects."
'Missouri' (i.e., variants leading up to this form) referred to 'people with
canoes' and their river was the 'Pekitanoui', which meant 'Muddy Water' in
Algonquin references; several variants related to 'Pekitanou' are found farther
north in Algonquin territory, but Siouans such as the Otoes referred to the
river with 'Nisoje' (contemporary form reported by Oto-Missouria elder, in
interview). We have no records at all of what the Missouris called themselves
or their river, but the Otoes called them 'Niutachi' = 'those who drown in
the water' because of what happened to a large bunch of the Missouris when
they were attacked by Sac and Fox (Algonquin-speaking) warriors. Even the
name for the Otoes was given them by the Ioways. So sometimes whiteman's
history does more than lay interpretations on words that mean 'the people'.
Siouan people up in the Dakotas area also thought the Aise ([a ise] river
flowed from its headwaters in Montana down to the Gulf of Mexico, with
a tributary coming into it from the north where the Aise turned south above
what is now St Louis. DMLance
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 01:31:14 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: new york city and upstate
Kansas City also is "The City" in the western part of MO and eastern KS.
DMLance
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 01:36:23 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: new york city and upstate
In Missouri all except the St Louis and KC metro areas are "outstate."
DMLance
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL
From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: new york city and upstate
> we're "New Yorkers" (specifying that we're from "New York
> City" or "the City" [and yes, I'm aware of the arrogance
> of that one] if appropriate) or "Long Islanders.
>
"the city" is definitely area-specific, though. just as donald lance
said "the city" is st. louis (wasn't that it?) in newark, NY, where i
grew up (it's NOWHERE NEAR new jersey!), "the city" is rochester--(as
in "i'm working in the city now") even though we're about
equidistant from rochester and syracuse.
lynne
______________________________________________________________________
M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za
Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340
University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030
Johannesburg 2050 South Africa
"Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:17:05 -0400
From: Bob Lancaster
Subject: "them" singulars
>Did I actually see someone on ADS-L use [sic] on a singular they/them referen
>ce to a singular prior reference which was unspecified for sex?
>What is one to do when they dont know the sex of a prior referent?
Yes, I did indeed use [sic], obviously not with any implication that
Professor Mufwene was unaware of English grammatical structure,
but to indicate that the "them" was not a typo or editorial revision of my own.
Furthermore, I am unwilling to apologize for it. The use of a plural
pronoun to stand for a singular referent in order to achieve gender
ambiguity seems to me to be heavy PC. For one thing, although in the mists
of history there may have been some male dominance suggestion in the use
of "him" as a generic for "human being," in the case in question "him" is
certainly a generic form. To demonstrate this one need only suppose that
it was intended as masculine. The result would be that the preceding noun,
"person," was meant to refer only to a male--clearly a ridiculous
assumption. Furthermore, the situation is easily avoided by either
changing "person" to the plural form, or using the (admittedly somewhat
awkward) "him/her." We already find ourselves in a situation in which
grammatical structure has broken down to the extent that millions of
Americans are unable to say clearly what they mean. (And one wonders, if
they are unable to say it, whether they know what they mean.) I, for one,
am unwilling to sanction any surrender of clarity of expression for
sociological purposes.
Bob Lancaster
SUNY-emeritus, English
slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:32:53 -0400
From: Bob Lancaster
Subject: Relics
>My favorite "relic" is telephone terminology. We still say, "Your
>phone's off the hook," "Hang up and redial." I've never even seen
>an old-fashioned telephone where the receiver had to be hung up on a
>hook, except on tv or in movies.
You just don't live in the right plac, Wab. We had one installed in our house in Nova scotia just three or four years ago.
Doesn't vitiate your thesis regarding relics, though.
Bob Lancaster
SUNY-emeritus, English
slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 05:54:30 -0800
From: James Beniger
Subject: Re: Relics
"Hangup" has survived even to computers. It is, for example, the actual
command equivalent of exit, quit, logoff, etc., in Comserv.
-- Jim Beniger
*******
On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Warren A. Brewer wrote:
> My favorite "relic" is telephone terminology. We still say, "Your
> phone's off the hook," "Hang up and redial." I've never even seen
> an old-fashioned telephone where the receiver had to be hung up on a
> hook, except on tv or in movies. Haven't used a dial since I can't
> remember when. Suppose this is semantic shift with loss of original
> referent.
>
> Cf. to ship goods by plane/truck/train, as well as by boat still.
> To (set) sail
> ---Wab.
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 09:36:54 -0500
From: Ellen Johnson
Subject: Re: Boulder Dam
The post about Hoover Dam vs. Boulder Dam reminds me of a personal
dilemma. They have renamed the large lake above Augusta, GA, which used
to be called Clark Hill Reservoir. Now it's "Strom Thurmond Lake", at
least according to the folks on the SC side, and now the road maps,
too. I'll be damned if I'll call it that...
BTW "conservative" is Definitely not a non-PC term around here. I heard
the Democratic and Republican congressional candidates falling all over
themselves in a public appearance last week, each trying to prove to the
audience that he was the more conservative. I asked the Democrat why he
didn't run as a Republican (thinking that might give voters more of a
choice), but that only gave him a chance to pontificate about the Great
Southern Tradition of Conservative Democrats.
There may be a gender-based difference in frequency among users of the
N-word here, but I've heard it from both sexes, even, I'm sorry to say,
from my own mother. Are attitudes really worse among the older
generations than the younger, or is there just a tendency to disregard
the taboos as one ages? It seems to me to be comparable to age-grading,
wherein certain nonstandard forms are most common among both the very
young and the very old. I once submitted a grant proposal to the
gerontology research center here to study how people may be more inclined
to flout the linguistic norms as they get older and pressure to climb the
social ladder decreases. I never heard back from them.
As you can tell, I'm just now reading last week's mail.
Ellen JOhnson
ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 08:53:02 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: "them" singulars
> of history there may have been some male dominance suggestion in the use
> of "him" as a generic for "human being," in the case in question "him" is
> certainly a generic form. To demonstrate this one need only suppose that
> it was intended as masculine. The result would be that the preceding noun,
> "person," was meant to refer only to a male--clearly a ridiculous
> assumption. Furthermore, the situation is easily avoided by either
I'm having a bit of a problem with what I perceive to be a circle here.
If it's not my imagination, I hope others will note it and address it.
I'm online for only a very quick run through new mail before the arrival
of out-of-town guests.
> awkward) "him/her." We already find ourselves in a situation in which
> grammatical structure has broken down to the extent that millions of
> Americans are unable to say clearly what they mean. (And one wonders, if
Huh? Would you mind giving some examples of this broken grammatical
structure?
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:25:04 EST
From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: new york city and upstate
From: NAME: David Bergdahl
FUNC: English
TEL: (614) 593-2783
To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX
On "The City"--I grew up in Valley Stream and taking Sunrise Hwy into Queens
there was a big billboard withe the admonition "THIS IS QUEENS--OBEY THE LAW" so
I can attest to Denis Baron's memory that Queens was a distinct place, separate
from both Brooklyn and Manhattan. Could Brooklyn still have retained its
separate identity because, up until 1900, it was a separate city rather than a
borough, and that manhattan and Brooklyn were "twin cities"? It was the
Brooklyn Bridge that is ultimately responsible for the creation of "The City of
New York" from these two cities.
As far as the 'confusion' between New York State and The City, I remember Raven
McDavid's use of York Staters for what we called citizens of Upstate. I
recommend using New York for both and letting the context disambiguate, much as
Chomsky recommends on grammar as either internalized rules or rules in the data.
The moral of this exchange is, I think, that if we cannot agree on what to call
a city and a state with the same name so as to differentiate them, how are we
goiing to keep a white Rhodesian and a black American apart by labels? I'm
reminded of the wisdom of Stokely Carmichael, "It isn't the bus, it's us." It
isn't the naming which should be the focus.
DAVID
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:42:00 -0600
From: Katherine Catmull
Subject: Re: "them" singulars
> Furthermore, I am unwilling to apologize for it. The use of a plural
> pronoun to stand for a singular referent in order to achieve gender
> ambiguity seems to me to be heavy PC.
I don't think this is the case. It has been commonly used in informal
speech throughout my lifetime at least. When I taught freshman English,
well before "PC" (I don't like that term, but that's another subject) was
an issue, it was one of the most common mistakes in student papers.
I think the problem is that we need a gender neutral singular pronoun, and
English speakers are grabbing the handiest possibility.
I believe the singular "they" is in the throes of becoming common usage. I
have no problem with that.
> For one thing, although in the mists
> of history there may have been some male dominance suggestion in the use
> of "him" as a generic for "human being," in the case in question "him" is
> certainly a generic form. To demonstrate this one need only suppose that
> it was intended as masculine.
It leads to amusing sentences, though, such as one I recall that went
something like this: "Whether a patient is in the hospital for heart
surgery, a broken bone, or to give birth, he . . ." If "he" were truly a
gender-neutral pronoun, there would be no problem with this sentence, when
clearly there is.
> Furthermore, the situation is easily avoided by either
> changing "person" to the plural form, or using the (admittedly somewhat
> awkward) "him/her."
If "he" were truly a gender-neutral pronoun, why would this be necessary?
> We already find ourselves in a situation in which
> grammatical structure has broken down to the extent that millions of
> Americans are unable to say clearly what they mean.
This has not been my experience.
Kate Catmull
kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:52:43 -0600
From: "Timothy C. Frazer"
Subject: Re: "them" singulars
> certainly a generic form. To demonstrate this one need only suppose that
> it was intended as masculine. The result would be that the preceding
noun,
> "person," was meant to refer only to a male--clearly a ridiculous
> assumption.
In fact, there is research in Thorne, Kararae and Henly which shows that
most people really DO preceive the recerence as masculine.
> We already find ourselves in a situation in which
> grammatical structure has broken down to the extent that millions of
> Americans are unable to say clearly what they mean.
As a linguist, I am confused by your assertion that grammatical structure
has "broken down." What I think IS going on is a decline in general
literacy.
We have many college graduates who have never read a book. And so,
unlike most academics and some professionals, their speech is NOT
influenced by a familiarity with the world of writing. And speech is NOT
always "clear" because it depends on things like context and preconditions;
it is often, for reasons of politeness or self=affacemtn, indirect. That
does not mean that "grammatical structure has broken down."
(And one wonders, if
> they are unable to say it, whether they know what they mean.) I, for one,
> am unwilling to sanction any surrender of clarity of expression for
> sociological purposes.
>
> Bob Lancaster
> SUNY-emeritus, English
> slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu
I wonder if Bob is concerned more with a general breakdown in authority
for which I am also concerned. That's a different issue and one on about
which I know very little. But grammatical structure is alive and well
and will definitely outlast what we think of as civilization.
Timothy Frazer
Dept of English
Western Illinois University
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:55:41 -0600
From: "Timothy C. Frazer"
Subject: Re: "them" singulars
I wrote before I saw Natalie's post and would like to second her question.
Tim Frazer
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:23:00 EST
From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "them" singulars
Since I was the first to respond to the silly notion that they/them singulars
was somehow learned as s response to current PC trends, I suppose I should
answer again, although soem have already been kind enough to point out that
this usage is common in the speech of many (most?) Americans, and I certainly
learned and used it (with perfect clarity I might add) long before any current
political issues were involved (although historical facts relating to this
issue are much older than many assume, as Dennis (the other one) shows in his
1986 Grammar adn Gender (Yale Univ. Press).
As for the other of Lancaster's claims, particularly that we communicate
poorly as a result of breakdown in grammar, I can only utter (oooops! careful
with that only placement) the usual linguist's sigh. I suppose the loss of the
thou/thee/thine singulars did cause a little misunderstanding for a while (a
real grammatical breakdown) and I also assume that those who oppose such
breakdowns are 100% behind such repairs as you guys, you all, youse, and yuns.
(Why do I suspect that they are not? Is it for the same reason that
Michiganders yuk it up when hillbillies like me conflate pin and pen but don't
even get the joke when I laugh at their conflation of horse and hoarse -- what
conflation? They're pronounced the same, right? Yuk-yuk)
Dennis [dIn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s] Preston
22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 09:34:29 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: "them" singulars
About the sociology of "they/them":
As a male who is NOT a feminist, who grows bilious at most PC euphemisms,
I (nonetheless) find merit in the argument that "he/him/his" is goofy.
It does NOT refer to a person of unknown gender: it refers clearly to a
man. So I think Dr. Lancaster is off on this one.
This leaves us with no graceful choice. "He/she" is hideous. "It" means
an inanimate, and would thus be appropriate for some people, but not
all.
I find "they/them/their" the best of a bad set of choices.
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:15:42 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: Re: "them" singulars
"They/them/their" as singular goes back to Chaucer. It doesn't eradicate.
I agree with Birrell Walsh -- the best of a bad set of choices, and look
at all the well-attested history behind it. Now, excuse me, why was it we
didn't want to use these forms anyway
I remember reading once that Meillet or one of those dead French linguists
had uncovered a substratum of animacy below/before the sex-gender distinctions.
English handles animacy really badly, which is another reason I don't find
the plural/singular conflation a problem, and why I for one wouldn't mind
if ikind of went away. He/she merely draws attention to genitalia and
secondary sex characteristics in a way that makes people from other languages
and cultures wonder why they have to pay so much attention to sex in order to
just speak English properly. He/she vs it tends to invoke a "living/dead"
contrast. And then, to top it all off, we have a great big gaping hole in
that pronoun set -- any living creature whose genitalia we're not interested
in or can't immediately tell (neighbor's new baby or dog, a tree, a whale, a
bug, a star we label 'IT', as if the creature is dead! I contend our
pronoun systems is subtly complicit in it-ting Mother Earth to death because
of this basic lack of formal respect. Note this is different from Romance
languages where masc/fem/neut are applied to all objects and beings equally,
without absolute dependence on sexual characteristics.
So gimme them they's and their's!
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 13:58:15 -0500
From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM
Subject: Re: NADS Is Now Obscene
Yes, I heard that one ten years ago. And thought I'd just keep on
brightening the lives of those who get brightened that way.
Whatever turns you on....
- Allan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 16:09:00 CST
From: Edward Callary
Subject: special issues of names
Names, the Journal of the American Name Society, is
planning two special issues for late 1995 or early
1996. The first is on 'Computers in Onomastic
Research,' and the second 'Statistics in Onomastic
Research.' If you would like to contribute to one (or
both) of these special issues, send a 1-page idea paper
to the editor at the address below. Nothing has to be
definite at this time, but I would expect that both
issues would deal with problems faced in name research
and how computers (and statistics) could contribute to
solving them.
I put a similar notice on the American Name Society
list and found that there was wide-spread interest in
both areas. So if you would like to contribute, send the
idea paper to me shortly, by either hard copy, fax or
email.
Edward Callary, Editor,
Editor, Names
English Department
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb, Il 60116
FAX: 815-753-0606
email:tb0exc1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mvs.cso.niu.edu
(make sure you type zero rather than o after TB)
I hope to hear from people from a variety of disciplines
who have an interest in names. Please let me know if you
have questions or comments.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 15:40:55 -0400
From: Bob Lancaster
Subject: Algonquian et al.
Just want to say that if that posting from Moonhawk is a shadow of his
coming, I sure look forward to the reality.
Bob Lancaster
SUNY-emeritus, English
slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 17:01:45 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: Re: Algonquian et al.
Thank you, Prof. Lancaster. I only hope the reality is as impressive as the
shadow, smoke and mirrors. Perhaps a note of introduction would not be too
onerous for this list. After UCLA training in English and Linguistics in the
late 60s, I soon found myself on the Cheyenne Indian Reservation (dumping
my Chomskyan training down the toilet of abstraction) administering a federal
bilingual ed program and crafting an alphabet and writing system. On return
to California four years later, to doctoral studies at Berkeley, I found and
was adopted as a deep friend by an Algonquian couple, two of the early few
American Indians to receive doctorates, who were teaching there. Marie
Battiste went on to head the Mikmaq educational efforts in Nova Scotia (and
was voted Nova Scotia Woman of the Year three times or so), and Sakej
Henderson has parlayed his Harvard law degree into working on the Canadian
Constitution, being a delegate to the United Nations, and now heading the
Indian Law Center for Canada. Meanwhile, these two hooked me up with David
Bohm just before he died, as he convened the first Dialogue Between Indigenous
and Western Sciences in 1991, as physicists, American Indians, a few linguists
and some others, including elders, talked about how reality is constructed.
I happen to think it's an event of staggering importance -- Indians were
invited in full cognitive equality for the first time in history to talk
with some of the world's greatest scientists. And the results were equally
staggering: they agreed on key concepts of reality (everything that exists
vibrates; the only constant is flux; the part enfolds the whole), except the
scientists called it the subatomic realm and the Indians called it the realm
of spirits.
If anyone wants to know more about these Bohm Dialogues (still ongoing), I'd
be glad to post more about it.
If anyone would like to see the SUMMARY I posted on Linguist to a claim by
a Blackfoot woman, quite Western educated and working in theater, that when
American Indians are speaking their own languages they don't speak in
metaphors -- ever, no matter what it sounds like in English, let me know.
Meanwhile, a riddle for anyone who's made it this far: My momma comes from
a place where people refer(red?) to a certain stage of milk as "blinky".
She also says "warsh-rag" and "liketa" for almost ("He liketa died!").
Any guesses where she's from, or did I narrow it down far enough?
Finally, a story to go with my signoff. One fine imaginary day, two
astronomers were walking along an imaginary beach together and sat to
watch the nightly lightshow in the sky. One saw a "sunset", with the
sun circling out of sight around the earth, and the other saw an "earth-turn"
as the earth circled the sun.
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 22:10:43 -0400
From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK"
Subject: blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa
I just read Moonhawk's interesting post. I know from personal research
experience that his mama.momma could be from Newton County, Arkansas--but i
also know that she could be from anywhere in the Arkansas or Missouri
(or maybe even Kansas or Texas or one small stretch of Illinois) Ozarks or
that's dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 21:09:05 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Kingsbury
Stewart Kingsbury, long-time member of ADS, died on October 23, of
cancer of the liver. He was 71.
DMLance
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 22:13:31 -0400
From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK"
Subject: blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa - cont'd
the line that was inadvertently omitted from the previous post is
"anywhere in southern Appalachia."
Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 19:59:48 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: Algonquian et al.
On Sat, 5 Nov 1994, Bob Lancaster wrote:
> Just want to say that if that posting from Moonhawk is a shadow of his
> coming, I sure look forward to the reality.
>
> Bob Lancaster
> SUNY-emeritus, English
> slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu
>
Adventus est!
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Nov 1994 to 5 Nov 1994
**********************************************
There are 5 messages totalling 114 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Urbicentrism
2. Folkspeech as wellspring (2)
3. blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa
4. "them" singulars
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 13:01:17 GMT
From: "Warren A. Brewer"
Subject: Urbicentrism
"The City" for the ancient Romans was [tada!] Urbs (sc. Roma). Sic
transit rapidus.
---Wab.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 13:47:53 GMT
From: "Warren A. Brewer"
Subject: Folkspeech as wellspring
Impersonal pronouns:
Since 3rd sg impers _he/him/his_ ("The masculine predominates") rule is
on the ropes, informal or nonstandard contenders should simply be
acknowledged as the new champs. Perhaps it is the moral responsibility
of ADS to make such suggestions for formal use, lest the masses
remain at the mercy of pedantic prescriptivists peddling their
undemocratic nostrums.
"Melior est reprehendant nos grammatici, quam non intelligant nos
populi." Which, for the Classically challenged, means, "It's better
that grammarians criticize us, than that people not understand us."
Unfortunately I'm memory challenged, so it was either Jerome or
Augustine (probably the former in his preface to the Vulgate).
---Wab.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 00:53:52 EST
From: Larry Horn
Subject: Re: Folkspeech as wellspring
While we're on the subject of sex-indefinite singular 'they', a valuable brief
history and analysis is given by Ann Bodine in a Language in Society paper
published in 1975. The use of 'they'/'them'/'themself' in a variety of
contexts (albeit to different extents in different syntactic environments) is
indeed rather ancient, pre-dating the current 'PC' debates by several
centuries, in both formal and informal registers.
--Larry
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 07:49:15 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: Re: blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa
Amazing, Bethany Dumas -- you win! Close enough anyway -- Baxter County, Ark,\
up in the Ozarks! How excellent!
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 12:25:16 CST
From: salikoko mufwene
Subject: Re: "them" singulars
In Message Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:15:42 -0800,
Dan Alford writes:
> He/she merely draws attention to genitalia and
>secondary sex characteristics in a way that makes people from other languages
>and cultures wonder why they have to pay so much attention to sex in order to
>just speak English properly. He/she vs it tends to invoke a "living/dead"
>contrast.
Have you surveyed these claims or are you just guessing? If I may speak
for some of those "people from other languages and cultures," these
interpretations never crossed my mind.
> And then, to top it all off, we have a great big gaping hole in
>that pronoun set -- any living creature whose genitalia we're not interested
>in or can't immediately tell (neighbor's new baby or dog, a tree, a whale, a
>bug, a star we label 'IT', as if the creature is dead! I contend our
>pronoun systems is subtly complicit in it-ting Mother Earth to death because
>of this basic lack of formal respect.
FANTAS-tic theory!! (At least you made me giggle for a while!)
>Note this is different from Romance
>languages where masc/fem/neut are applied to all objects and beings equally,
>without absolute dependence on sexual characteristics.
I have heard another interesting theory about the French gender system,
according to which cultural articfacts and functions originally associated
with women are typically feminine; mutatis mutandis for men/masculine.
There are curious exceptions of course for this theory, because "la
guarde", for instance, is feminine. I wonder if knives were originally used
only by men, as "le couteau" is masculine, while "la fourchette" is
feminine, both of which are used at the dinner table and should have been
expected to be feminine according to this other theory. On the other hand,
"la fourche", which I would associate with men in a farm (though I am not
French), is feminine.
I don't know about Spanish, Portuguese, or Italian, but French doesn't
have a neuter gender.
Sali.
Salikoko S. Mufwene
University of Chicago
Dept. of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Nov 1994 to 6 Nov 1994
**********************************************
There are 14 messages totalling 389 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. "swan" not "swear" (3)
2. 'swan' in TX, ARK (5)
3. motivation for 'swan'
4. Algonquian et. al. (3)
5. Algonquian et al.
6. swanny
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 10:03:05 EST
From: DONNIE J GRAYSON
Subject: "swan" not "swear"
People say that it is not polite to swear, but my mom says that it isn't
even polite to say "I swear." So she says "I swan" instead of "I swear," and
I have to tell you, it gets on my nerves. Does anyone else out there say
"I swan," or ever heard anyone use it. Just curious?
******************************************************************************
e-mail: djgray02[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 10:25:47 -0400
From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK"
Subject: 'swan' in TX, ARK
I heard /swan/ for 'swear' growing up as a child in southeast TX and
later in the Ozarks region in Arkansas. I have probably heard it in
southern Appalachia also, though I haven't focused on it. It seems
unexceptional to me. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu (English, U of TN)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 10:29:04 -0400
From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK"
Subject: motivation for 'swan'
I was never aware that the substitution of /swan/ for 'swear' was
motivated by a taboo against saying the word 'swear." In fact, I never
heard anyone give a reason for doing it. Where is 'mom' from? I wonder
if she says /swan/ just because other people do but has invented a
motivation for doing so? Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu (English,
U of TN)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:16:54 EST
From: "Beverly S. Hartford"
Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK
I grew up with 'swan' in Maine. Bev Hartford
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 13:49:06 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: "swan" not "swear"
"I swan" was quite common in Mississippi in the '50s. I don't think I've
heard it in a long time, though.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 11:02:17 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: Re: "swan" not "swear"
Yup -- I've heard it, in my boyhood days around Ozark transplants to Southern
California, and probably back in Arkansas too. And I too went through a long
period of things like that 'getting on my nerves' until I finally made peace
with my own hillbilly heritage. Hey -- it can happen!
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:56:14 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: Algonquian et. al.
It is indeed fortunate for us on this list that Dr. Mufwene is on-line
to keep us honest by presenting alternative cultural views.
>Have you surveyed these claims or are you just guessing? If I may
>speak for some of those "people from other languages and
>cultures," these interpretations never crossed my mind.
My lack of a quantifier was infelicitous here. Although I do indeed
have a background of work in Luganda and Igbo during my graduate
studies, my attention has turned over the past few decades to the
languages of Indigenous America, which is where these claims
come from. I have no idea what Dr. Mufwene's native language is,
but the lack of such interpretation in his mind is *possibly*
because that language had male/female distinctions built in --
and I'm not sure how that correlates with the interpretations by
those without such distinctions. The claim is that before the
Invasions, Algonquian languages in particular had no sex-based
distinctions in their languages -- no separate words for man and
woman, boy or girl. The only distinction made in this way had to do
with "pregnant" somethings vs regular ones.
Which is how we came up with one particular word in English -- in
the early contact days, a ship's captain was exploring with a
Mikmaq (Nova Scotia) and they saw a group of large quadrupeds. The
captain pointed and asked what it was called, to which the Mikmaq,
following the pointing to a particular one, that happened to be
pregnant, replied not "tiam", the usual word, but "tiam-musi"
meaning a pregnant-tiam. The captain didn't hear the first part too
well so called them all "moose", whether pregnant or not. The 'musi'
did not, in their language, point to femaleness, but merely the
containing of new life. According to Mikmaqs, this was the only
distinction normally made with animals or humans or anything. You
just don't need that "basic" male/female distinction when your
gender system is based on animacy instead of sexual
characteristics -- all you're paying attention to is the signs of
mystery and life.
And I must commend Dr. Mufwene for correctly seizing on my
rhetorical tricks. That is, I use such examples, including it-ting
Mother Earth to death, as a way of having people reflect on their
own grammatical categories in a non-habitual way and try to
understand from the inside what it would be like to be part of
another system, one that paid attention to animacy rather than
genitalia -- and what it means, in the larger picture, that we so
unthinkingly label animate beings with 'it' at the same time that we
are wreaking ecocide at every turn. I don't know if I can make this
into a coherent theory, but I can make people stop and think.
My French is many stacks down on the language server, so I was
taking my cue from Spanish and others re: neuter gender. Sorry.
I'll see if I can make my rhetorical tricks more invisible in the
future.
Meanwhile, another Algonquian word makes the news. In a recent
Washington Post article on the efforts of a soman named Suzan Harjo
to get Jack Kent Cooke to change the name of the Redskins football
team (thanx to Linda Coleman), questions about the origins of words
like 'redskin' and 'squaw' came up. Harjo (and Sen. Ben Nighthorse
Campbell apparently) insists that 'squaw' has a very precise meaning
in Algonquian and Iroquoian languages -- 'vagina'. That she learned
this meaning from clan mothers. On the other hand, experts such as James
Axtell of William & Mary insist that it's simply a word for woman,
non-pejorative. Thus is the framing cast.
I talked to my friend Sakej about this, suspicious that the argument
was going on about nouns. He replied: In Mikmaq, there is still no
sex-gender distinction that shows up as a general word for 'woman'
-- it's all relationship! Do you mean 'mother', 'sister', what? There
does happen to be a word in Mikmaq which is also used in the
greeting, "Come in!" (something like *peskwa*, which is damn close
to the Proto-Algonquian form now that I look at it!) -- with the
same root "entering" (AHA!) as in the word 'squaw', so in that sense
Harjo is right that it has to do with sex (pejorative in English, to be
sure, but not in native languages) -- but it doesn't refer to a noun,
'vagina', rather to a motion-verb 'enter'. As to non-pejorative --
well, when you have 'mothering' 'sistering' and 'entering' to pick
from and you pick the last when referring to a woman, it kinda says
right there what your relationship with the woman is (of course with
lots more in the set as well -- friending, loving, etc.).
All for now ...
Oh, except: As a general rule, distrust any English noun that supposedly
points to or corresponds to a Native American term in noun form -- that is,
distrust the Native "noun" -- Native American languages in general, and
Algonquian specifically, do not make any distinction as we do between noun
and verb; they have pre-noun/pre-verb roots that express rhythms and
vibrations and relationships. I've not yet been able to pin my Algonquian
friends down to any noun; they say they can speak all day long and never
utter a single noun (or NP), and that this is the rule rather than the
exception. Even their words for 'God' are verbs, as I show in my current
2-hour Worldview Thought Exercise called 'God is not a Noun in Native
America.'
Bye. Really!
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:42:52 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: Re: Algonquian et al.
It is indeed fortunate for us on this list that Dr. Mufwene is on-line
to keep us honest by presenting alternative cultural views.
>Have you surveyed these claims or are you just guessing? If I may
>speak for some of those "people from other languages and
>cultures," these interpretations never crossed my mind.
My lack of a quantifier was infelicitous here. Although I do indeed
have a background of work in Luganda and Igbo during my graduate
studies, my attention has turned over the past few decades to the
languages of Indigenous America, which is where these claims
come from. I have no idea what Dr. Mufwene's native language is,
but the lack of such interpretation in his mind is *possibly*
because that language had male/female distinctions built in --
and I'm not sure how that correlates with the interpretations by
those without such distinctions. The claim is that before the
Invasions, Algonquian languages in particular had no sex-based
distinctions in their languages -- no separate words for man and
woman, boy or girl. The only distinction made in this way had to do
with "pregnant" somethings vs regular ones.
Which is how we came up with one particular word in English -- in
the early contact days, a ship's captain was exploring with a
Mikmaq (Nova Scotia) and they saw a group of large quadrupeds. The
captain pointed and asked what it was called, to which the Mikmaq,
following the pointing to a particular one, that happened to be
pregnant, replied not "tiam", the usual word, but "tiam-musi"
meaning a pregnant-tiam. The captain didn't hear the first part too
well so called them all "moose", whether pregnant or not. The 'musi'
did not, in their language, point to femaleness, but merely the
containing of new life. According to Mikmaqs, this was the only
distinction normally made with animals or humans or anything. You
just don't need that "basic" male/female distinction when your
gender system is based on animacy instead of sexual
characteristics -- all you're paying attention to is the signs of
mystery and life.
And I must commend Dr. Mufwene for correctly seizing on my
rhetorical tricks. That is, I use such examples, including it-ting
Mother Earth to death, as a way of having people reflect on their
own grammatical categories in a non-habitual way and try to
understand from the inside what it would be like to be part of
another system, one that paid attention to animacy rather than
genitalia -- and what it means, in the larger picture, that we so
unthinkingly label animate beings with 'it' at the same time that we
are wreaking ecocide at every turn. I don't know if I can make this
into a coherent theory, but I can make people stop and think.
My French is many stacks down on the language server, so I was
taking my cue from Spanish and others re: neuter gender. Sorry.
I'll see if I can make my rhetorical tricks more invisible in the
future.
Meanwhile, another Algonquian word makes the news. In a recent
Washington Post article on the efforts of a soman named Suzan Harjo
to get Jack Kent Cooke to change the name of the Redskins football
team (thanx to Linda Coleman), questions about the origins of words
like 'redskin' and 'squaw' came up. Harjo (and Sen. Ben Nighthorse
Campbell apparently) insists that 'squaw' has a very precise meaning
in Algonquian and Iroquoian languages -- 'vagina'. That she learned
this meaning from clan mothers. On the other hand, experts such as James
Axtell of William & Mary insist that it's simply a word for woman,
non-pejorative. Thus is the framing cast.
I talked to my friend Sakej about this, suspicious that the argument
was going on about nouns. He replied: In Mikmaq, there is still no
sex-gender distinction that shows up as a general word for 'woman'
-- it's all relationship! Do you mean 'mother', 'sister', what? There
does happen to be a word in Mikmaq which is also used in the
greeting, "Come in!" (something like *peskwa*, which is damn close
to the Proto-Algonquian form now that I look at it!) -- with the
same root "entering" (AHA!) as in the word 'squaw', so in that sense
Harjo is right that it has to do with sex (pejorative in English, to be
sure, but not in native languages) -- but it doesn't refer to a noun,
'vagina', rather to a motion-verb 'enter'. As to non-pejorative --
well, when you have 'mothering' 'sistering' and 'entering' to pick
from and you pick the last when referring to a woman, it kinda says
right there what your relationship with the woman is (of course with
lots more in the set as well -- friending, loving, etc.).
All for now ...
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:43:54 CST
From: salikoko mufwene
Subject: Re: Algonquian et. al.
In Message Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:56:14 -0800,
Dan Alford writes:
> I have no idea what Dr. Mufwene's native language is,
>but the lack of such interpretation in his mind is *possibly*
>because that language had male/female distinctions built in --
>and I'm not sure how that correlates with the interpretations by
>those without such distinctions.
I grew up speaking two Bantu languages: Kiyansi and (Kikongo-)Kituba and
claim to have them both as my native languages. According to the canonical
Bantu model, Kiyansi should have a noun class system in which the
Human/-Human distinction is quite central. However, I discovered about five
years ago that the verb's first syllable in Yansi varies according to tense
and mood but not according to person and number. At least in my dialect,
there is no evidence of subject-verb agreement. (I have discovered a number
of other diverging features from the Bantu canon that should be disturbing
for Bantu geneticists!) However, the pronominal system distinguishes between
humans and nonhumans. Kituba, a Bantu-based creole, follows more or less the
same system.
I suppose I was shocked mostly by the correlation of gender with
genetalia. Dan's analysis was made more interesting by a question I received
from my 6-year old daughter a couple of days before (more or less as follows):
"Daddy, how do you tell a baby girl from a baby boy?" I am sure several of
you parents and/or adults have received such questions. I was reminded of
Hilary Putnam's distinction between, on the one hand, the essential features
of gold or an elm, and on the other, the stereotypes by which the average
speaker operates. On the other hand, there might be more interindividual
variation in the conceptualization of meaning than I have made allowance for
in my assumption that communal linguistic systems are not monolithic.
Sali.
Salikoko S. Mufwene
University of Chicago
Dept. of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 18:04:16 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK
Raised in Southern California amids lots of TX-OK-AR folks in the early
fifties. Never heard 'swan' among the folks there.
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 18:12:42 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: Algonquian et. al.
For those of you who don't know Dan Alford, he teaches a course in
"Language and Consciousness" that it as close to a laboratory course in
that topic as I've ever seen. Extraordinary!
Available, for those of you in the San Francisco Bay Area, at the
California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco, where I had
the pleasure of experiencing it.
Birrell "Some of my best friends are nouns" Walsh
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:09:34 EST
From: Larry Horn
Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK
Has someone yet mentioned during this thread that the OED lists the verb as
derived from a 'prob. north. Eng. dial. I s'wan 'I shall warrant', i.e. 'I'll
be bound', and says it was later taken as (folk-etymologized to) a 'minicing
substitute for 'swear'. First citation is 1832. There's another slang verb,
also largely attested in 'exclamatory asseveration' (don't you just love
'em?), of the form 'swanny', derived by the OED from 'I shall warrant ye'.
Anybody ever heard that one? Prob'ly not, I swanny. (No relation to the
"Swanny" River, I don't guess.)
--Larry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:20:11 -0400
From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK"
Subject: swanny
Yes, Larry Horn. I have heard "swanny"--I just thought it was a variant
of /swan/. Both terms seem to me to be variants more of "Well, I
declare" (expressing mild wonderment) than anything stronger.
Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 21:26:31 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK
> substitute for 'swear'. First citation is 1832. There's another slang verb,
> also largely attested in 'exclamatory asseveration' (don't you just love
> 'em?), of the form 'swanny', derived by the OED from 'I shall warrant ye'.
> Anybody ever heard that one? Prob'ly not, I swanny. (No relation to the
> "Swanny" River, I don't guess.)
Heard of "I swanny"?? It was even more common than "I swan" in my
Mississippi childhood and beyond. I'm not sure when "I swanny" and "I
swan" started fading away.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Nov 1994 to 7 Nov 1994
**********************************************
There are 14 messages totalling 705 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. "swan" not "swear" (3)
2. FYI -- hot debate shaping up on LINGUIST re: Whorf
3. 'swan' in TX, ARK (3)
4. Swan = swear
5. Algonquian et. al.
6. NAMES
7. Birrell Walsh
8. Them singulars (2)
9. pronoun systems, Putnam/Plato essences, haptic perception
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 23:51:53 PST
From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA"
Subject: Re: "swan" not "swear"
Hi, Chuck Coker here. I've been following this "swan" vs. "swear" thread,
and I was wondering: could "swan" be "sworn" pronounced /swan/? I've
seen replies from all over, but they keepreminding me of living in Lubbock,
TX, and hearing people say things such as "I cooda [could have] swan [sworn]
it was . . ."
I'm probaly way out in left field here, but just curious.
Chuck Coker
CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 01:06:21 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: FYI -- hot debate shaping up on LINGUIST re: Whorf
I know this will be repetitious for some of you who are cross-subscribed (you
can delete any time!), but I thought the others might like to peek in, and
maybe even cross-discuss (but no cross replies, please!).
It started with this posting:
>>
Date: Sun, 06 Nov 1994 09:59:38 -0500 (EST)
From: "Leslie Z. Morgan"
Subject: Re: 5.1239 Eskimo "snow"
The returned discussion of "snow" in Eskimo has brought my
thoughts around to a related issue which I do not recall having
seen discussed on _Linguist_ since I've subscribed: the Sapir-
Whorf hypothesis. I just read an article in _Foreign Language
Annals_ 27.3, "Awareness of Text Structure: Is There a Match
Between Readers and Authors of Second Language Texts?" by
Sally A. Hague and Rene'e Scott (343-363), where one of the
hypotheses in examining Spanish texts is that they will differ
because of the difference in culture-set ways of writing (based
on articles by Kaplan (1966 & 1976). In fact, their sample DOES
NOT show such a difference.
I was under the impression that the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is
generally NOT accepted and is somewhat of an error in interpre-
tation.
A dean here has cited the hypothesis (without knowing that is
what he was citing) as the main reason for studying foreign
languages. Does anyone have some suggestions of readable
refutations of Sapir-Whorf, something one could send students,
deans, etc. to? Or is this a returning issue that is under
debate?
Thank you- I'll summarize responses for the list.
Leslie Morgan MORGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LOYOLA.EDU or MORGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LOYVAX.BITNET
>>
To which I replied -----------------------------------------
The ([Anti-]Sapir-)Whorf Hypothesis
Leslie Z. Morgan wants to know why we haven't discussed the infamous
hypothesis. Before we do, I'd like to weigh in with what will undoubtedly
be a minority opinion. I'm bypassing the usual summarizing process in
hopes of shaping any discussion.
By "the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis", what exactly are you referring to? I
usually take it to mean any of four or five hypotheses (with such names as
perception, non-translatability, circularity of evidence, cognition, etc.)
found in the critical literature of linguistics, anthropology, psychology and
sociology. If that's what you're referring to, I can save you and all of us the
trouble -- not only do most or all of the critics think it's wrong, so do
Whorfian supporters like me! And Whorf refuted most of those before
critics ever came up with them, so this rejection is no reflection on him.
The ([Anti-]Sapir-)Whorf Hypothesis was all a bad mistake, founded on
insensitive misreading (and perhaps non-reading, as critics read mainly
each other) of Sapir and Whorf, and we wasted a lot of time trying to "test"
it, and now maybe it's over. Kaput. Finis. There's really no reason to send
people to refutations -- it's wrong, ill-conceived from the beginning, never
happened-- WHICHEVER version they happen to be citing. [N1]
Now if you want to talk about the linguistic relativity principle that Whorf
wrote (note: principle is what he called it, not hypothesis -- apples and
oranges in scientific terminology and must be treated entirely differently),
and talk about its Einsteinian pedigree (Whorf extended Einstein's limited
geometry problem to natural language in general [N2]) or its
Locke/Herder/von Humboldt/Boas/Sapir pedigree before Whorf cast it into
formal scientific language [N3], which was probably his main contribution
in the historical sequence, then we might talk very fruitfully about that.
Or we could explore the linguistic relativity principle as a case in point for
how Whorf was attempting to update the notion of *science* for linguists
while physics was forging forward from its Newtonian principles into the
new worldviews and principles of relativity and quanta -- toward whole
systems, dynamic and interactive, where opposites are complementary
rather than bipolar. We could talk about how Whorf's most 'damning'
statements look quite different in a systems perspective than in a model that
promotes monocausal determinism as REAL. And we could talk about how
at least four different disciplines crucified him for this -- and for asking
linguistics in particular to raise its THEORIES to the same systems level
that its METHODOLOGIES have always been, balancing form and
meaning. (I tell my graduate students from various departments to look
within their own discipline for who it is that everybody's ganging up on and
see what it is they're trying to keep people from knowing -- it's worth at
least a thesis every time!)
In fact, we could even go further and show how Whorf's insights very
seriously influenced physicist David Bohm in the last years of his life as he
attempted to discover whether Whorf's reply [N4] to Heisenberg's famous
lament about our European languages was true -- but I can't really go into
that here. Maybe privately if you're interested.
So maybe, in order to discuss the linguistic relativity principle cogently, if
it is this instead of the ([Anti-]Sapir-)Whorf Hypothesis that we want to
discuss, we need to bring in some extra-linguistics, cross-disciplinary data
-- like understanding the basic insights of this century's physics, the way
Whorf did; in my over 25 years in linguistics, however, I have found few
linguists who care.
And before we start, we should probably put John Lucy's two _Language
diversity and thought_ volumes on the table as the most comprehensive and
sensitive treatment to date of this and many related issues.
So if we can cast our discussions into this kind of framework, maybe we'll
actually get somewhere for the first time, and maybe even talk about
interesting ideas! If we want to talk about something particular that
Whorf wrote, let's cite page numbers and get to it -- I'll be happy to
join such a discussion. But if all you want to do is indulge in some
customary Whorf-bashing, as the tone of your post indicates, then
don't look for me.
[Morgan: Is this what you wanted, or just something simple to rub your
dean's nose in? But thanks, from me at least, for opening this thread up.]
NOTES:
[N1] Alford, "The Demise of the Whorf Hypothesis". BLS-4, 1978
[N2] Alford, "Is Whorf's Relativity Einstein's Relativity?" BLS-7, 1981
[N3] Alford, "A Hidden Cycle in the History of Linguistics -- out of print,
defunct journal called PHOENIX: New Directions in the Study of Man
[N4] Whorf, "An American Indian Model of the Universe"
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:18:45 EST
From: David Muschell
Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK
>Has someone yet mentioned during this thread that the OED lists the verb as
>derived from a 'prob. north. Eng. dial. I s'wan 'I shall warrant', i.e. 'I'll
>be bound', and says it was later taken as (folk-etymologized to) a 'minicing
>substitute for 'swear'. First citation is 1832. There's another slang verb,
>also largely attested in 'exclamatory asseveration' (don't you just love
>'em?), of the form 'swanny', derived by the OED from 'I shall warrant ye'.
>Anybody ever heard that one? Prob'ly not, I swanny. (No relation to the
>"Swanny" River, I don't guess.)
>
>--Larry
Good job! And quick on the draw, pardner...Old Stevie Foster misused the
name of the Suwanee River in his "Old Folks at Home," calling it Swanee.
Of course, he never even saw the river, which originally was called the
"river of reeds" by the natives (Guasaca Esqui [source: Britannica]). The
same source says that the present name was probably a slave version of a
Spanish name: San Juanee (Little St. John). I'm sure our Waycross
correspondant can add more, I swanny.
David
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:31:42 EST
From: David Muschell
Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK
>>Has someone yet mentioned during this thread that the OED lists the verb as
>>derived from a 'prob. north. Eng. dial. I s'wan 'I shall warrant', i.e. 'I'll
>>be bound', and says it was later taken as (folk-etymologized to) a 'minicing
>>substitute for 'swear'. First citation is 1832. There's another slang verb,
>>also largely attested in 'exclamatory asseveration' (don't you just love
>>'em?), of the form 'swanny', derived by the OED from 'I shall warrant ye'.
>>Anybody ever heard that one? Prob'ly not, I swanny. (No relation to the
>>"Swanny" River, I don't guess.)
>>
>>--Larry
>
>
>Good job! And quick on the draw, pardner...Old Stevie Foster misused the
>name of the Suwanee River in his "Old Folks at Home," calling it Swanee.
>Of course, he never even saw the river, which originally was called the
>"river of reeds" by the natives (Guasaca Esqui [source: Britannica]). The
>same source says that the present name was probably a slave version of a
>Spanish name: San Juanee (Little St. John). I'm sure our Waycross
>correspondant can add more, I swanny.
>
>
> David
Yah!!! I still have my seventh grade English teacher's vituperous
condemnation of misspellings ringing in my ears: correspondent, David,
_not_ correspondant! Sorry, Mrs. Parrot, may you rest in peas and cues.
David
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:53:13 GMT
From: "Warren A. Brewer"
Subject: Swan = swear
I swan = I swear
My mother (now in seventies) has always said, "Well, I swan." (Maryland,
Virginia). At some point, I had analyzed it as "Aswan", i.e.,
"Aswan Dam" (Cf. Hoover/Boulder thread), hence a euphemism for "damn".
She however vehemently rejected my brilliant folk-etymology.
---Wab.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 09:19:00 CST
From: Edward Callary
Subject: Re: Algonquian et. al.
Thanks; send it by email if you like; after the last in-
service class I took, I am now an uploading/downloading
fool!
If not by email, then a disk please (DOS only) in ASCII,
and one hard copy. I prefer WordPerfect 5.1, but any
processor which will let you make an ASCII copy is fine.
Best wishes,
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 11:51:00 CST
From: Edward Callary
Subject: NAMES
Last week I sent a message announcing two special issues
of NAMES - on computers and on statistics in onomastic
research and asked for contributions. The responses have been
enlightening, to say the least. I had not known that NAMES was
less known that it should be. Several people wrote to ask what
it was, what it dealt with, what was onomastics, etc. I thought
that the best way to introduce NAMES to members of the list would
be to give some general background and then present the tables of
contents from the last several issues. So here goes:
NAMES is the journal of the American Name Society. Now in its 42nd
year of continuous publication, NAMES publishes articles, short
notices and book reviews on all aspects of names and naming -
personal names, geographical names, uses of names, changing
patterns of names, conflicts involving names, names and
naming in literature, etc,etc. NAMES is a fully-refereed journal;
each submission is read by at least two qualified reviewers.
Tables of Contents follow - please make allowances for the
mainframe defaults which replace the diacritics and other
unreadable characters:
NAMES
The Journal of the American Name Society
Volume 41 June 1993 Number 2
_______
Nicknames in Urban China:
A Two-Tiered Model Robert L. Moore 67
Taking Thy Husband's Name:
What Might it Mean? Deborah A. Duggan,
Albert A. Cota, Kenneth L. Dion 87
Yahoo (Yahu): Notes on the Name
of Swift's Yahoos Richard Crider 103
In Memoriam
Margaret M. Bryant Leonard R. N. Ashley 111
Book Reviews
Acronymania: A Celebratory Roundup of
Nomenclature-Yielding Mischief.
By Don Hauptman Leonard R. N. Ashley 117
P~!jmen! v sou~asn ~e~tin~.
By Miloslava Knappov Ladislav Zgusta 120
The Book of African Names.
By Molefi Kete Asante
What's in a Name? Unaitwaje?
By Sharifa M. Zawawi
African Names: Names from the
African Continent for Children and Adults.
By Julia Stewart Edwin D. Lawson 128
Historia del nombre y de la fundaci"n
de M xico. By Gutierre Tib"n Ilan Stavans 131
Claims to Name: Toponyms of St. Lawrence County.
Edited by Kelsie B. Harder
and Mary H. Smallman Robert M. Rennick 135
NAMES
The Journal of the American Name Society
Volume 41 September 1993 Number 3
~~~~~~
Names and Naming Tell an Archetypal Story
in Margaret Atwood's
The Handmaid's Tale Charlotte Templin 143
Power and Placenames: A Case Study
From the Contemporary
Amazon Frontier J. Timmons Roberts 159
A Pair of Desert Saints:
Name Symbolism
in Peter Shaffer's Equus Hassell Simpson 183
In Memoriam
Michel Grimaud Lawrence M. Baldwin 195
Book Reviews, W.F.H. Nicolaisen
gonamn.
Edited by Lars Huld n 197
County Down III: The Mournes.
Edited by M!che l B. ~ Mainn!n 198
The Place-Names of Shetland.
By Jakob Jakobsen 199
Reader zur Namenkunde II: Anthroponymie.
Edited by Friedhelm Debus and Wilfried Seibi201
Das Vermessungsprotokoll f r das
Kirchspiel Ibbenb ren von 1604/05.
By G nter M ller 204
Philologie der ltesten Ortsnamen berlieferung.
Edited by Rudolf Sch tzeichel 206
West Lothian Place Names.
By John Garth Wilkinson 209
Copyright ~ 1993 by The American Name Society
ISSN 0027-7738
NAMES
The Journal of the American Name Society
Volume 42 March 1994 Number 1
~~~~~~
Designer Selves in Tom Wolfe's
The Bonfire of the Vanities and
Danielle Steel's Crossings Hildegard Hoeller 1
Multilingual Gods Anna Partington 13
Parisian Street Names in
George Du Maurier's Trilby Elizabeth A. Hait 19
Name, Memory, and Time in
Racine's Trojan War Plays Nancy M. McElveen 27
Book Reviews
Jewish Personal Names: Their Origin,
Derivation and Diminutive Forms.
By Shmuel Gorr David L. Gold 39
Apellidos catalanes: Her ldica de Catalunya.
By Augusto Cuartas David L. Gold 55
Studies in Third Millennium Sumerian and
Akkadian Personal Names: The Designation
and Conception of a Personal God.
By Robert A. Di Vito Juris G. Lidaka 61
The Ancient and Modern Names of
The Channel Islands: A Linguistic History.
By Richard Coates Leonard R. N. Ashley 65
Copyright ~ 1994 by The American Name Society
ISSN 0027-7738
NAMES
The Journal of the American Name Society
Volume 42 September 1994 Number 3
~~~~~~
Naming Patterns of Recent Immigrants from the
Former
Soviet Union to Israel
Edwin D. Lawson and Irina Glushkovskaya 157
Reading the ~Deep Talk~ of Literary Names and
Naming
Debra Walker King 181
In Memoriam
Clarence L. Barnhart E. Wallace McMullen 201
Donald Thomas Clark Lurline H. Coltharp 204
Book Reviews
Language in Contemporary Society. Ed. by Jesse
Levitt, et. al.
Gaylord R. Haas 206
Kentucky~s Bluegrass: A Survey of the Post
Offices.
By Robert M. Rennick. Kelsie B. Harder 209
Native Canadian Geographical Names: An
Annotated Bibliography. Kelsie B. Harder 212
The Guinness Book of Names, 6th ed. By Leslie
Dunkling.
Frank Nuessel 213
Beyond Jennifer & Jason. By Linda Rosenkrantz
and
Pamela Redmond Satran.Cleveland Kent Evans 215
The Twelve Days of Christmas: The Mystery and
the Meaning.
By Thomas L. Bernard. Kelsie B. Harder 222
Dictionary of Russian Personal Names. By Morton
Benson.
Ladislav Zgusta 223
George Washington Never Slept Here: Stories
Behind
the Street Names of Washington, D.C. By Amy
Alotta.
Richard R. Randall 225
Stories Behind the Street Names of Nashville and
Memphis.
By Denise Strub. Kelsie B. Harder 228
War Slang: American Fighting Words from the Civil
War
to the Present. By Paul Dickson.Kelsie B. Harder 231
Copyright ~ 1994 by The American Name Society
ISSN 0027-7738
NAMES welcomes manuscripts on any aspect(s) of names or naming.
Potential contributors need not be members of the American Name
Society to submit manuscripts.
I you would like to contribute to one or both of the special
issues, send an idea paper of not more than one page to the editor.
If you would like to submit a manuscript for a regular issue, send
three copies to the editor. For additional information about the
journal or the Society, or for a free copy of NAMES, write to the
editor:
Edward Callary
Editor, NAMES
English Department
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb, Il 60115
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 10:18:19 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: Re: Birrell Walsh
I blush. But for those of you who do not know who Birrell Walsh is, he is the
closest in this day & age to a true Renaissance Man that I've found. Master of
many trades, jack o' none. I often invite him to talk to my classes -- talk
did I say? I meant mezmerize -- regarding his thought experiment which
considers Whorf's linguistic relativity principle in terms of different
computer programming languages, showing how what is easy to do in one
language is exceedingly difficult to do in another. It's a world-class
performance. Of course he writes (wrote) a regular computer column for
Microtimes, and works in PBS television programming for a local station;
and his philosophy and religion knowledge is impeccable. Nice guy, too!
Birrell was one of the (auditing) students who made the "Language &
Consciousness" class so effective and memorable!
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 11:04:07 -0400
From: Bob Lancaster
Subject: Them singulars
Well, I did cause a fuss with those "they/them" singulars, didn't I.
I take Moonhawk's point:
>I remember reading once that Meillet or one of those dead French linguists
>had uncovered a substratum of animacy below/before the sex-gender
>distinctions. English handles animacy really badly, which is another reason I
>don't find the plural/singular conflation a problem, and why I for one
>wouldn't mind if ikind of went away.
>any living creature whose genitalia we're not interested
>in or can't immediately tell (neighbor's new baby or dog, a tree, a whale, a
>bug, a star we label 'IT', as if the creature is dead! I contend our
>pronoun systems is subtly complicit in it-ting Mother Earth to death because
>of this basic lack of formal respect. Note this is different from Romance
>languages where masc/fem/neut are applied to all objects and beings equally,
>without absolute dependence on sexual characteristics.
The English mixing of sexual and grammatical gender is unfortunate, and I guess
I too wouldn't mind if it went away. Only thing is, it won't, and I still
want to preserve whatever clarity the existing structures have. Actually I like
"her" for a generic pronounQnobody can seriously think it means only a female,
and it reminds the reader that the sexes ought to be linguistically equal. (And
every other "equal" too, in my belief).
>I wonder if Bob is concerned more with a general breakdown in authority
>for which I am also concerned. That's a different issue and one on about
>which I know very little. But grammatical structure is alive and well.
Yes, ,Tim, I am concerned, and I do need to apologize for careless semantics in
the reference to "grammatical" structure. Although I saw (and see) such usages
as "them" singulars (especially in writing), as symptomatic of loss of clarity,
it was actually syntactic structure which I had in mind. Uncertain or
impenetrable syntactic structures are familiar to all of us who have read
student writing in the last two or three decades at least. I would agree that
"grammatical" structure has not suffered a general breakdownQ(and of course
that good usage in general reflects only the usage of careful speakers; "them"
singulars will certainly be standard in fifty or a hundred years, given the current
direction of development).
Bob Lancaster
SUNY-emeritus, English
slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 10:38:05 -0800
From: Guadalupe Valdes
Subject: Re: "swan" not "swear"
Can someone help me in signing off from the list server. Much as I enjoy
it, I am overwhelemed with e-mail.
Somehow, the unsuscribe command isn't working for me.
Thanks.
Guadalupe Valdes
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 12:13:06 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: pronoun systems, Putnam/Plato essences, haptic perception
Still chewing on Prof. Mufwene's comments, and how the pronominal
system in one of his native languages, Yansi, distinguishes
human/non-human. By which I would interpret that literally to
mean that *only* humans are allowed in, and everything else
whether animate or inanimate is lumped in the non-human class.
This is very similar to English, except we seem to have *person*
instead for this -- babies are transformed from IT into gendered
persons of he or she; even our pets are allowed in (you may call
your neighbor's new dog IT until you know which sex it is), but that
noticing of genitalia is inescapable for promotion to personhood in
English. Weird, huh? And then, to be fair, we also promote ships and
cars and guns to personhood (although ships go back to being 'it'
after they're decommissioned!), and -- think of it! -- most English
speakers actually used to use the pronoun SHE when referring to
Mother Earth, and used to always capitalize Earth! But now, alas,
She's slipping into being an IT along with the rest of the universe in
our materialist oriented scientific paradigms; no mystery, no
wonder left, no questioning as to whether She has spirit and mind.
As my friend Sakej said to the quantum physicists, referring to
magnificent trees swaying outside our conference room, "Turn
around and look out there. What's making those trees do that? You
can call it the wind, but you might as well call it spirit."
Perhaps I'm wandering, but I really do find the way pronoun systems
set you up for dealing with the world in different ways a really
fascinating topic. And thank you for the anecdote about your
daughter -- priceless! and to the point.
It's the Hilary Putnam distinction (between, on the one hand, the
essential features of gold or an elm, and on the other, the
stereotypes by which the average speaker operates) that I'm still
chewing on. Hm -- that sounds suspiciously like the Platonic views
that were thrown out when Aristotle defined knowledge for us. Not
that I'm against essences -- on the contrary, totally for 'em; I think
Aristotle nudged us down a garden path, in a way. But Plato! There's
a thinker from a time before all our Western European conceptual
scaffolding and structuring got in place -- MUCH closer than anyone
since to the indigenous mind. You see, it's this very notion of
'essences' that got lost: the notion that there is something actually
out there beyond your own construction of the world, your
conceptions (stereotypes), that is 'touched' directly. This is in line
with the Pribram/Bohm conceptions of a holographic mind
interpreting a holographic universe: what we 'receive' from 'out
there' comes in the form of synesthetic patterned vibrations which
our mind then, through Fourier Transforms, separates out into the
different sense modalities in different vibration ranges (visual,
auditory, kinesthetic, taste, smell), as well as emotions, etc. In
fact, says Sakej, Plato also recognized a certain knowing that
arises from the land itself -- but let's let Sakej speak for himself:
***********
Plato, best understood as a pre-eurocentric author, listed three
great modes of being in the universe: reason, sensation and chora.
Reason concerned eternal ideas (changeless forms with no
location), and the sensory was viewed as transient copies of the
external forms or perceptual data, but chora was the receptacle of
sensory experience and the seat of phenomena. Chora is the oldest
Greek world for "place", found also in Homer and Hesiod. Later it
was changed to topos in Aristole's works, e.g., mere location or
objective features of a place, the "inert container of experience".
But to the ancients such as Plato it was an active container
connected with the matrix of enegeries of a place. It had the
qualities of mutual immanence.
Chora is known by haptic perceptions. Derived from ghrebh (dig or
lay hold to something), haptic perception is a wholistic perception
distinct from seeing, hearing or thinking, a unified structure of
feeling and doing. It is like "pathetecture" (emotional response to a
building) and "psychagogy" (power of a place to move the soul, the
expressive energies of a place), or simply the caring or grasping the
sense of the place. This isn't Greek to me.
**************************************************
(PS -- Prof. Mufwene: I'll send you separately the SUMmary on
claims by American Indians about their languages concerning
non-metaphoricity, non-arbitrariness, etc. Your pre-Euro-
influenced indigenous mind will probably enjoy it.)
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 15:28:02 -0600
From: "Timothy C. Frazer"
Subject: Re: Them singulars
On Tue, 8 Nov 1994, Bob Lancaster wrote:
> Uncertain or
> impenetrable syntactic structures are familiar to all of us who have read
> student writing in the last two or three decades at least. I would agree that
> "grammatical" structure has not suffered a general breakdownQ(and of course
> that good usage in general reflects only the usage of careful speakers
>
I know what you mean, of course, Bob. And lot of what we see in student
writing might represent real linguistic events like inflectional loss,
consonant cluster reduction, homophony (weather/whether; where/were/wear).
But a lot of it, too, isn't so much structural as a result of trial and
error atempts to create stuctures they think they know but don't, or
attempts to sound formal. Much of this is a literacy issue; contemporary
students don't come from backgrounds which value literacy. (I polled a
class of juniors a few years ago -- these were mostly computer science
and ag majors--and asked them to list the books they'd read in the past
five years, excluding college texts. About half answered 0; one replied
"I hate to read.")
I react to student writing as you do. I am getting tired of assigning it.
It makes me think of early retirement.
Tim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:35:30 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: "swan" not "swear"
Oh, yeah, "I swan" has been around a long time; both extended sides of
our family for at least three generations. These are Southerners with
American "roots" in the Carolinas and later "roots" in Arkansas. All
Southern protestants. DMLance
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:49:59 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK
I heard 'swanny' as well as 'swan' from relatives, those with stronger
religious convictions. And I remember recognizing as a young 'un that
'I swan' was a euphemism for 'I swear' and that 'swanny' was a little
broader -- "Well, swanny!" euphemized something else.
DMLance
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Nov 1994 to 8 Nov 1994
**********************************************
There are 7 messages totalling 154 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. pronoun systems, Putnam/Plato essences, haptic perception (2)
2. re Prof. Mufwene's reply (2)
3. word geography
4. swan/swanny (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:35:10 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: pronoun systems, Putnam/Plato essences, haptic perception
a) Moonhawk's description of Plato sounds SO MUCH like modern
Phenomenologists when they are alert (only part of the time) that we may
find in them sympathetic ears for for neo-indigeny?
b) Is itold news to the folks on this list that the pronouns in American
Sign Language are spatial? You point (often with the nose, BTW) to a
space when talking about, say, John. Thenceforth that space serves as a
pronoun for John - you can talk to it, receive things from it, have it
talk to another space-which-is-serving-pronominally, and in every way use
it as we use pronoun's in English...
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 09:53:12 CST
From: salikoko mufwene
Subject: Re: pronoun systems, Putnam/Plato essences, haptic perception
In Message Tue, 8 Nov 1994 12:13:06 -0800,
Dan Alford writes:
> Your pre-Euro-
>influenced indigenous mind will probably enjoy it.)
>
> -- Moonhawk (%->)
I suppose I should be fair and give you a chance to save face, because I
could take offense at this characterization. So let me say I cannot
interpret your use of "indigenous" in this context, because what you discuss
has nothing to do with my personal cultural background or my native land,
and I happen to live as an expatriate now in what I take to be YOUR country.
So in a way, you could be characterized as indigenous, if this term is used
objectively!
Neither do I see a chronological order between my mental development and
that of people of European descent. This reflects how I am invited to
interpret your "pre-Euro-influenced ... mind."
Maybe I should ignore it all?
Sali.
Salikoko S. Mufwene
University of Chicago
Dept. of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:23:20 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: re Prof. Mufwene's reply
Please do ignore it all. It was truly intended as a (perhaps misguided?) sign of
respect and perhaps a covert message to your subconscious on how to receive it,
and as a (feeble?) attempt to be personal, whether invited or not, via a
faceless and impersonal medium. I have not yet mastered proper Emoticonography
as I should (;->
Moonhawk
PS -- "indigenous": actually I prefer to take that word politically rather
than objectively, where it loses most of its meaning and force. And there is
a small part of me that is indigenous in both senses of the term, and that I
honor whenever I can.(:0)
And thank you for allowing me to save face!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 16:52:30 CST
From: salikoko mufwene
Subject: Re: re Prof. Mufwene's reply
In Message Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:23:20 -0800,
Dan Alford writes:
>Please do ignore it all.
I will.
Sali.
Salikoko S. Mufwene
University of Chicago
Dept. of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 20:17:47 -0600
From: Daniel S Goodman
Subject: Re: word geography
Some terms that I think identify me as being from a fairly narrow area:
The nearest city has a downtown section called The Stockade.
roomeke -- guest at a bungalow colony (this also identifies my ethnic group)
doodlebug -- a car converted into a tractor.
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 22:32:13 EST
From: Michael Montgomery
Subject: swan/swanny
I have heard "swanny" all my life from my mother, who was born in
southern Alabama. "Swan" is what I heard from my fellow East Tennesseans,
however, when I was growing up. So there may be an Upper South/Lower South
disctinction here as with a number of other items.
The usual "etymology" of the term is from Scots "I's warrant (ye)" =
"I shall warrant you" or more loosely, "I'll guarantee you". Somewhere
in my youth I surmised or it was explained to me that the form in more
recent times is understood to be a euphemism for "swear". The latter
word was to be avoided because Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount called
for his followers not "to swear by any power in heaven or on earth"
(loose quotation from memory) and so the use of "swan/swanny" as an
expression of either disgust/anger or surprise at least avoided the letter
of this Scriptural injunction. If I'm not mistaken, this was also taken to
heart during colonial days, especially by Quakers, when people refused
to take oaths such as "I do solemnly swear ..." Our Presidential and other
oaths of office read, or used to read, as follows: "I do solemnly swear
(or affirm) ..." Anyone know for sure?
Michael Montgomery, Dept of English, U of South Carolina, Columbia SC 29208
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 21:48:50 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: swan/swanny
I should have added to my earlier posting that my reason for interpreting
'I swan' as a euphemism for 'I swear' was that my mother and others would
sometimes correct themselves, replacing the latter with the former.
A cousin's (female) use of 'swanny' is the strongest echo in my head, and
she used as an equivalent to 'I swan' but used both. All this is aside from
the etymologies, which we appreciate, and which are no doubt historically
accurate. The 'swanny' people I have in mind were born in Arkansas and
spent much of their lives in Texas.
DMLance
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Nov 1994 to 9 Nov 1994
**********************************************
There are 13 messages totalling 238 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. word geography (7)
2. Freeway names (3)
3. where did _this_ come from?
4. Weimar, TX!
5. sow bugs, rolly-pollies (sp?) vs. pill bugs and doodlebugs, etc
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 08:57:31 -0500
From: Robert Kelly
Subject: Re: word geography
With two of those words (The Stockade, roomeke) you could be from
Ellenville NY (or anywhere on the western slopes of the southern
Catskills). Only doodlebug affirms the north midlands, I guess.
RK
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:06:39 EST
From: LORI B BALDRIDGE
Subject: Re: word geography
BEING FROM EASTERN KENTUCY I ALWAYS HEARD THE TERM DOODLEBUG REFER TO THE
LITTLE BROWN BUGS THAT LIVE UNDERGROUND.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 11:53:14 EST
From: Mark Ingram
Subject: Re: word geography
On Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:06:39 EST LORI B BALDRIDGE said:
> BEING FROM EASTERN KENTUCY I ALWAYS HEARD THE TERM DOODLEBUG REFER TO THE
> LITTLE BROWN BUGS THAT LIVE UNDERGROUND.
Me too. :-) Louisville in the 1950s.
Mark Ingram maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:08:48 EST
From: Wayne Glowka
Subject: Re: word geography
> BEING FROM EASTERN KENTUCY I ALWAYS HEARD THE TERM DOODLEBUG REFER TO THE
> LITTLE BROWN BUGS THAT LIVE UNDERGROUND.
There was trouble in my neighborhood in San Antonio, Texas. We--children
of parents from Weimar, Texas--called the multiple-legged arthropod that
curled up when touched a doodlebug, but the kids next door from Kansas
called ant lions doodlebugs. They called our doodlebug a pill bug. There
were other problems too, but I've got to go to the library now and review
76 requests for development money. You'd think that I was on a search
committee or something.
Wayne Glowka
Professor of English
Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
Georgia College
Milledgeville, GA 31061
912-453-4222
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 14:37:38 EST
From: Mark Ingram
Subject: Re: word geography
On Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:08:48 EST Wayne Glowka said:
>> BEING FROM EASTERN KENTUCY I ALWAYS HEARD THE TERM DOODLEBUG REFER TO THE
>> LITTLE BROWN BUGS THAT LIVE UNDERGROUND.
>
>There was trouble in my neighborhood in San Antonio, Texas. We--children
>of parents from Weimar, Texas--called the multiple-legged arthropod that
>curled up when touched a doodlebug, but the kids next door from Kansas
>called ant lions doodlebugs. They called our doodlebug a pill bug. There
>Wayne Glowka
>Professor of English
>Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
>Georgia College
The plot thickens. :-) We called pill bugs roley poleys (spel?). Or sow bugs.
I have a running debate with colleagues over what a June bug is. I say it's
big and green. Others claim it is the small brown bug on your screens at
night in the summer. I call those hardshell bugs. Any ideas folks?
Mark Ingram maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu
>Milledgeville, GA 31061
>912-453-4222
>wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
>BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 14:48:15 -0600
From: "Timothy C. Frazer"
Subject: Re: word geography
That critter that Wayne wrote about, that curls up when you touch
it--looks like a trilobyte, right?--is a SOW BUG around here. (Of
course, it's not an insect). That may be a book word.
Tim Frazer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:30:59 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: word geography
> That critter that Wayne wrote about, that curls up when you touch
> it--looks like a trilobyte, right?--is a SOW BUG around here. (Of
> course, it's not an insect). That may be a book word.
No, no -- it's a rolypoly!
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:22:15 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: Freeway names
Being new, I know not whether you have discussed the major NoCAL vs SoCAL
dialectal distinction I've noticed -- re: how freeways are referred to.
In Southern California it's always: you take *the* 101 to *the* 405...,
whereas in Northern California you take 101 to 680. Since I was raised in
LA but am now firmly in the SF area, and now firmly 101 to 680 and only
dimly remember the *the* dialect that I grew up with as the LA freeways
changed a somewhat sleepy local eventually into a megalopolis (as the old
city trains became a distant memory and pennies put on rusting tracks
got flattened no more) -- I'm intrigued: why didn't the *the* spread
with the corresponding word and item to just 350 miles north? Is this
part of some larger *DET-ARTICLE DROP* Bay Areal feature?
-- Moonhawk (%->)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:24:43 -0800
From: Judith Rascoe
Subject: where did _this_ come from?
In an American textbook, "The New Business Arithmetic", 1906, I came
across a set of questions all framed in the same form:
'What cost 218 gallons of syrup at 50cents per gallon?'
'What cost 26840 yards of calico at 8 1/3 cents per yard?'
The "What cost [sub]" is grammatically correct, but it seems very archaic
even for l906. Or was it? Can anybody explain this usage? The numerous
very-American items mentioned in the book lead me to believe it's not a
translation from another language.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 19:16:13 -0500
From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK"
Subject: Weimar, TX!
What a surprise, Wayne Glowka, to hear from someone who has heard of,
even has parents from, Weimar, TX. I never actually lived there, but
some of my early years of schooling were in Gonzales and Waelder! HOw did you ge
t from San Antonio to Millidgeville? Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 17:03:53 -0800
From: Dan Alford
Subject: sow bugs, rolly-pollies (sp?) vs. pill bugs and doodlebugs, etc
Growing up in LA of of Arkansas hillbilly heritage, surrounded by other Arkies
and Okies in Wilmington (doesn't seem right to call it a suburb! -- what
are surrounding towns/cities called on the West Coast anyway?), I called
'them' sow bugs as the 'serious' name, rolly-pollies as a kind of 'cute'
name. Later I heard them called pill bugs from an LA woman of Iowa roots
(I'm sorry -- LA here means L.A., not Louisiana) -- and doodlebug, why
that was just as abstract word I'd heard, but not in relation to 'them'.
June bugs I think I heard about on trips to Texas, Arkansas, etc., but
I likewise didn't know they might refer to 'them'. Hardshell bugs sounds
very descriptive but very foreign.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 21:18:57 -0600
From: "Timothy C. Frazer"
Subject: Re: Freeway names
"the 101" reminds of CB jargon which has "that 105", etc.
I dunno why it didn't spread; I don't know much about California.
I only went once, when MLA was in SF in 1975. Don't SFers hate LA?
(BTW, I just read that there's a movenment for the northern counties to
secede. Is that a strong sentiment?)
Prop 187, whew.
Tim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 20:53:04 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: Freeway names
On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Dan Alford wrote:
I'm intrigued: why didn't the *the* spread
> with the corresponding word and item to just 350 miles north? Is this
> part of some larger *DET-ARTICLE DROP* Bay Areal feature?
>
I am curious about the (related?) partitivized noun, which is growing in
unfortunate prominence:
First, the American "In the hospital" started giving way to "in
hospital".
Then I started hearing "in studio" for "in the studio".
Then the idiom became "I'll get staff's input," rather than "the staff's
input."
To my ear, hospital, staff and studio are being thus transformed into
partititve nouns - is that the right word? The kind like "butter" and
"water", for which units must have counters (a glass of, a stick of), and
the indefinite pronoun before does not indicate one unit, but one kind
("Perrier is a good water; Calistoga is a great water.")
Mayhap we have partitive freeways in Northern California. I mean,
"partitive freeway."
Birrell
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Nov 1994 to 10 Nov 1994
***********************************************
There are 14 messages totalling 300 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Freeway names (5)
2. word geography (5)
3. Michael Miller
4. motivation for 'swan'
5. subscription
6. Eighty-six
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 21:56:05 -0800
From: Roger Vanderveen
Subject: Re: Freeway names
Being new, I know not whether you have discussed the major NoCAL vs SoCAL
dialectal distinction I've noticed -- re: how freeways are referred to.
In Southern California it's always: you take *the* 101 to *the* 405...,
whereas in Northern California you take 101 to 680. Since I was raised in
Yes, but there are some roads in the Bay Area which are often referred to with
the article:
the Montague (or, Montague Expressway)
NEVER "the San Tomas", but sometimes "the Lawrence Expressway."
Sometimes "the Nimitz" or "the Bayshore" but never "the 880" or "the 101."
And 680; does anyone even know what the Sinclair Freeway is?
And the one I detest the most: "THE El Camino!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL
From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Freeway names
birrell walsh says that "in the hospital" is giving way to "in
hospital". this is news to me--is it particularly californian?
but i don't think that the "the" before hospital, school, etc. is
related to the "the" before route numbers, since in south africa (and
i'm presuming england) where they use "in hospital" they also use
the "the" before route numbers, as in "take the M1 to the M2".
saw a local production of _angels in america_ here and was stunned
by the skill that the actors had in producing american accents. but
the illusion was shattered everytime they said "in hospital"
(undoubtedly not in the original script) and when they erroneously
put flaps in "utah".
lynne
______________________________________________________________________
M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za
Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340
University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030
Johannesburg 2050 South Africa
"Comprehension is only a knowledge adequate to our intention."
--Immanuel Kant
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:13:24 EST
From: Wayne Glowka
Subject: Re: word geography
>The plot thickens. :-) We called pill bugs roley poleys (spel?). Or sow bugs.
>I have a running debate with colleagues over what a June bug is. I say it's
>big and green. Others claim it is the small brown bug on your screens at
>night in the summer. I call those hardshell bugs. Any ideas folks?
>Mark Ingram maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu
I know both sow bugs and roley poleys, and I can't say where I learned
either. As a matter of fact, I may be making the kids from Kansas
responsible for more than they actually were responsible for. A June bug
to me is a small brown bug that is fun to throw in someone's hair; to my
in-laws in central Georgia June bugs are indeed big and green and make all
that racket in the summer. I call them locusts. My cats call them good
food.
Wayne Glowka
Professor of English
Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
Georgia College
Milledgeville, GA 31061
912-453-4222
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:42:58 EST
From: Mark Ingram
Subject: Re: word geography
On Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:13:24 EST Wayne Glowka said:
>>The plot thickens. :-) We called pill bugs roley poleys (spel?). Or sow bugs.
>>I have a running debate with colleagues over what a June bug is. I say it's
>>big and green. Others claim it is the small brown bug on your screens at
>>night in the summer. I call those hardshell bugs. Any ideas folks?
>>Mark Ingram maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu
>
>I know both sow bugs and roley poleys, and I can't say where I learned
>either. As a matter of fact, I may be making the kids from Kansas
>responsible for more than they actually were responsible for. A June bug
>to me is a small brown bug that is fun to throw in someone's hair; to my
>in-laws in central Georgia June bugs are indeed big and green and make all
>that racket in the summer. I call them locusts. My cats call them good
>food.
>Wayne Glowka
>Professor of English
>Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
>Georgia College
>Milledgeville, GA 31061
>912-453-4222
>wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
>BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
Wayne, thanks for the description of the bugs we all know and love? but
have different names for. I find that I have to describe, just the way you did
the different critters, because we don't share the same terms for them. Here
is the list so far...
sow bug, pill bug, rolley polley (spel?)
June bug (large green bug on fruit, vegetables in the garden)
June bug (small brown bug on the screens at night, very good for scaring girls)
June bug, locust, cicada
This is pretty trivial stuff, but I have found it hard to communicate using
layman's terms when talking about the various creepy crawlies. BTW cats
eat those small brown bugs too!
Now what do you undertand by the term mayfly?
Thanks.
Mark Ingram
Lexington, Ky
maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 10:20:19 -0500
From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."
Subject: Michael Miller
I am sorry to report that Mike Miller has died after a long illness, in
Augusta, GA, to which he had moved this year from his long-time base in
Chicago. A good friend to many of us in the ADS, he was frequently in
attendance and giving papers at national and regional meetings. A student
of Raven McDavid, Mike's dissertation was on the speech of Augusta; he
had completed a manuscript on Augusta speech which will before long be in
print (arrangements are pending), and his materials are preserved in the
Linguistic Atlas archives here at UGA. Mike was among the earliest and
most proficient users of quantitative techniques in dialectology, and
among the foremost of those who could bridge the gap between traditional
dialectology and sociolinguistics. Mike was also my associate editor on
*Journal of English Linguistics*, and played a key role in the
internationalization of the journal during the 1980s. We will miss him.
Memorial services are being arranged (planning incomplete) for both
Augusta and Chicago.
Regards, Bill
******************************************************************************
Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246
Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181
University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu
Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:21:08 EST
From: DONNIE J GRAYSON
Subject: Re: motivation for 'swan'
My mother was born and raised in Boyd County, Eastern Kentucky. And she has
not traveled extensively, so I think she just substituted 'swan' herself, and
it just happens to be that people elsewhere use it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:48:11 EST
From: Wayne Glowka
Subject: Re: word geography
>Now what do you undertand by the term mayfly?
A mayfly is a smushy bug that appears after rain in July. It has big wings
and can't fly too well. When I lived up North, I read everything I could
about catching the mythical fish called the trout. Trout are said to
strike at pieces of feather and cloth made to look like mayflies. It being
unethical to catch trout with worms and such, I tied all kinds of flies in
order to hook my ear and hat. The only living trout I ever saw was under
some tree roots. A child with a stiff dead trout showed me that flies were
nonsense. He jumped into the water and tried to scoop up the terrified
fishery-bred animal with a landing net--the same net he had used to catch
the stiff dead fish.
I went back to catfish and other pedestrian breeds on that day. The whole
process was too much like trying to get a job in a research university.
Wayne Glowka
Professor of English
Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
Georgia College
Milledgeville, GA 31061
912-453-4222
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:23:13 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: Freeway names
On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Timothy C. Frazer wrote:
[snip]
>
> Prop 187, whew.
Yeah, prop 187 is big trouble. Hopefully the courts will stop most of
it. Bizarrely, polls reported that half of Blacks and the majority of
Asian voters were for it.
Bet that it a year or two, nobody will admit tohaving voted for it.
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:29:28 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: Freeway names
On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
> [South African actors] put flaps in "utah".
eh? whazzis "flaps in Utah"
Puzzled in Frisco
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:30:53 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: word geography
How many areas call water striders "Jesus Bugs"?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 15:22:03 -0500
From: Martha Howard
Subject: subscription
unsub-ads-l
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 16:42:20 -0600
From: "Timothy C. Frazer"
Subject: Re: Freeway names
I am pretty sure that "in hospital" has been part of British usage for
years, ditto "he graduated university."
Tim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 16:44:41 -0600
From: "Timothy C. Frazer"
Subject: Re: word geography
In no. Illinois the brown bugs on your window screen are june bugs,
except they aren't always very small.
Tim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 22:05:34 -0500
From: Abigail Sarah Margulies
Subject: Eighty-six
On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Edward Callary wrote:
> Thanks to all who have written in response to my request
> for information on the origin of the name of RU486. They
> iterate the two stories which I have heard: first that
> RU stand for the lab which developed the drug: Roussel
> Uclaf of France; second that RU-486 is wordplay on they
> spelling: Are You For 86; 86 for killing, stopping,
> halting, aborting.
I've been trying to track down the derivation of "86." Does anyone know
where it comes from?
Abbie
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Nov 1994 to 11 Nov 1994
************************************************
There are 5 messages totalling 414 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. swan/swanny (and Suwanee)
2. Singular "they"
3. Discourse conference final call
4. Eighty-six (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 08:55:00 EDT
From: "David A. Johns"
Subject: swan/swanny (and Suwanee)
# Old Stevie Foster misused the name of the Suwanee River in his
# "Old Folks at Home," calling it Swanee. Of course, he never even
# saw the river, which originally was called the "river of reeds"
# by the natives (Guasaca Esqui [source: Britannica]). The same
# source says that the present name was probably a slave version of
# a Spanish name: San Juanee (Little St. John). I'm sure our
# Waycross correspondant can add more, I swanny.
Is that me?
One question: Just north of the Florida border the Suwanee joins the
Suwanoochee. What's the pidgin Spanish etymology for THAT?
Back to "swan/swanny": I haven't heard that around here (I'll have to
ask around), but when I first moved to Florida, I noticed that a lot
of folks seemed to use "promise" where I'd use "swear", as in "I never
touched your skate board, I promise!" I assume this extension of
"promise" is another result of the taboo on "swear".
David Johns
Waycross College
Waycross, GA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 08:58:00 EDT
From: "David A. Johns"
Subject: Singular "they"
Bob Lancaster said:
# Although I saw (and see) such usages as "them" singulars
# (especially in writing), as symptomatic of loss of clarity,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the issue here is whether the
singular "they" is in fact unclear. The usage is extremely common
both in real life and on television (even in prepared material such as
commercials and news reports), and yet, even though I've consciously
listened for cases of ambiguity for years, I've never actually heard
one.
Have you?
David Johns
Waycross College
Waycross, GA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 12:13:54 -0500
From: Shari Kendall
Subject: Discourse conference final call
updated 11/12/94
FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS
Abstract and Colloquium Proposal Deadline:
November 18, 1994
**********
The Georgetown Linguistics Society
presents
GLS 1995
DEVELOPMENTS IN DISCOURSE ANALYSIS
**********
February 17-19, 1995
Georgetown University, Washington D.C.
**PLENARY SPEAKERS**
FREDERICK ERICKSON
Graduate School of Education
University of Pennsylvania
CHARLES GOODWIN
Department of Anthropology
University of South Carolina
HEIDI HAMILTON
Department of Linguistics
Georgetown University
DEBORAH SCHIFFRIN
Department of Linguistics
Georgetown University
ROGER SHUY
Department of Linguistics
Georgetown University
DEBORAH TANNEN
Department of Linguistics
Georgetown University
GLS 1995, DEVELOPMENTS IN DISCOURSE ANALYSIS, is an
interdisciplinary conference featuring presentations and
colloquia focusing on all aspects of discourse analysis.
Topics range from discourse analytic theory to the use of
discourse analysis as a tool in other disciplines. Any
research that focuses on language data at the discourse
level is appropriate, including, but not limited to, work in
cognitive science, conversational analysis, communication
studies, critical discourse analysis, interactional
sociolinguistics, linguistic anthropology, rhetoric,
psychology, sociology, and text linguistics. The deadline
for abstracts and colloquium proposals is November 18, 1994.
The conference will begin late morning Friday and end late
afternoon on Sunday. A reception will be held Saturday evening.
SUBMITTING AN ABSTRACT: Individual presentation of papers
will be 20 minutes long with 10 additional minutes for
discussion. Please send three copies of a 250-word
double-spaced abstract. On a separate sheet, provide your
name, paper title, mailing and e-mail addresses, phone
number, and institutional affiliation. In addition, please
submit a 100-word typed, single-spaced summary for the
conference program, headed by your name, affiliation,
and paper title.
SUBMITTING A COLLOQUIUM PROPOSAL: The GLS invites proposals
for two-hour colloquia. Please submit all abstracts for
presentation in a colloquium together, accompanied by a cover
letter which explains how the individual presentations relate
to one another and to the themes of the colloquium and the
conference. The cover letter should provide the organizer's
name, mailing and e-mail addresses, phone number, and
institutional affiliation. In addition, the organizer should
include a 100-word description of the entire colloquium for the
conference program.
ACCOMMODATIONS
*on the Georgetown University campus*
Georgetown University Conference Center
202-687-3200, 1-800-446-9476
$109 single, $124 double (up to four occupants)
Make reservations as soon as possible.
*Georgetown area*
Georgetown Dutch Inn
202-337-0900, 1-800-388-2410
1075 Thomas Jefferson, N.W. (off of M St.).
10 minute walk to GU.
$100 one bedroom suites.
(1 queen or 2 twins and pull-out bed)
Make reservations by February 6.
Holiday Inn
202-338-4600, 1-800-holiday
2101 Wisconsin Ave., N.W.
Buses run down Wisconsin.
Get off at O St and walk 5 blocks to GU.
$79 single, $92 double, triple, quadruple.
Make reservations by January 6.
*Rosslyn area of Virginia* (just across Potomac from GU)
Key Bridge Marriot
703-524-6400, 1-800-642-3234
1401 Lee Highway, Arlington VA.
Walk (about 30 minutes) or taxi across bridge to GU.
$89 single, double, triple, quadruple.
Make reservations by January 26.
*Dupont Circle area in Washington*
Davis House, 202-232-3196
1822 R St., N.W. 2 long blocks to G2 bus.
$30/person shared rooms, $35/person single room
(Price includes tax. Coffee and tea is served)
Radisson, Barcelo
202-293-3100, 1-800-333-3333
(toll free number available after reservation)
2121 P. St., N.W. 1 block to G2 bus.
$89 single, double, $104 triple, $119 quadruple
*Foggy Bottom area of Washington*
Inn at Foggy Bottom, 202-337-6620
824 New Hampshire Ave., N.W.
Walk to D buses. 35 minute walk to campus.
$79 single and double, $99 triple and quadruple
(Includes continental breakfast)
*Downtown Washington*
Washington International Youth Hostel
202-737-2333
1009 11th St., N.W. 2 blocks to D buses.
$20.00 (Linens available for $2, $5 deposit)
*Van Ness area of Washington*
Days Inn, 202-244-5600, 1-800-952-3060
4400 Connecticut Avenue.
1 block to Van Ness metro. Take to Dupont Circle.
$69 flat rate. Make reservations before January 16.
*Bed and Breakfast Locations*
Bed and Breakfast Accommodations, Ltd.
202-328-3510, fax: 202-332-3885
P.O. Box 12011, Washington, DC 20005
Prices vary according to location.
TRANSPORTATION
*Getting to Georgetown University from hotels*
GU is located at 37th and O Streets, N.W.
*. . . by bus* (202-637-7000)
The buses that serve GU are the G2, D2, D4, D6, and D8 buses.
The G2 bus arrives at the main gate of GU. The D4 and D8
buses arrive on the north side of campus at Reservoir and
38th. The D2, D4, D6, and D8 buses arrive at 35th and Q Sts. (3
blocks to GU).
*. . . by metro* (202-637-7000)
The metro stations nearest GU are Dupont Circle, Rosslyn,
and Foggy Bottom. To get to GU from Dupont Circle: 30
minute walk west on P St. G2 bus at 20th & P. D4 and D8 at
2nd & P Sts. Taxi is about $3.20. From Rosslyn: 25 minute walk
across Key Bridge. (No buses to GU). From Foggy Bottom: 35
minute walk. D buses.
*Transportation from area airports*
National Airport is on the metro line. There is no metro
station near Dulles Airport or BWI. The Washington Flyer
Express Bus (703-685-1400) serves National ($8) and Dulles
($16), leaving every 20-30 minutes non-stop to 1517 K
Street, N.W., one block from the McPherson Square metro
station at 15th & I Sts. The Washington Flyer shuttle bus
runs every 20-30 minutes from Dulles Airport to the Falls
Church metro station ($8). A taxi from National Airport to
Georgetown University costs $9.70, from Dulles, about $40-
$45. From BWI, take the Airport Connection bus (301-441-
2345) to downtown Washington ($14) or the MARC train
(800-325-7245) ($4) or Amtrak (800-872-7245) ($10) to
Union Station, which is on the metro line. The MARC train
does not run on weekends.
*Getting to GU ... by train*
Union Station is on the metro line. A taxi to GU costs about
$5.50.
*... by bus*
The Greyhound Bus Terminal is located at 1st and L Streets,
N.E., 4 blocks from the Union Station metro station.
*... by car*
From the Capitol Beltway (I-495, which encircles
Washington), the least complicated route is to take the
Wisconsin Avenue exit (in the N.W. section of the loop) and
to follow Wisconsin down to the heart of Georgetown.
PARKING AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY
Parking in Georgetown neighborhoods is difficult, but
there is free parking on weekends in Lot 3 in the
southwest corner of campus, which can be entered off of
Prospect Street or Canal Road. On Friday, parking in this lot
is $11 for the day, although we are trying to negotiate a
rate for the conference. Mention the Georgetown
Linguistics Society Conference to the parking attendant.
TWO GEORGETOWN CONFERENCES: GLS 1995 and GURT 1995
GLS 1995, Developments in Discourse Analysis, is
sponsored, in part, by the Georgetown University School of
Languages and Linguistics and the Georgetown University
Graduate Student Organization. The School of Languages
and Linguistics also sponsors the Georgetown University
Round Table on Languages and Linguistics (GURT). GURT
1995 will be held March 6 to 11, 1995 on the topic,
Linguistics and the Education of Second Language
Teachers: Ethnolinguistic, Psycholinguistic and
Sociolinguistic Aspects. For further information about
GURT 1995, please contact Carolyn A. Straehle, Coordinator,
School of Languages and Linguistics, 303 Intercultural
Center, Georgetown University, Washington, DC 20057-
1067; (e-mail) gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet or gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.
georgetown.edu; (voice) 202-687-5726.
HOW TO CONTACT GLS 1995
Registrations and requests for information about GLS 1995,
Developments in Discourse Analysis, may be addressed to
the Georgetown Linguistics Society:
GLS 1995
Georgetown University
Department of Linguistics
479 Intercultural Center
Washington, D.C. 20057-1068
internet: gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu
bitnet: gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet
voice: 202-687-6166
Regularly updated information about GLS 1995 is also
available through the World-Wide Web Georgetown
Linguistics Home Page:
http://www.georgetown.edu/cball/gu_lx.html
____________________________________________________
PRE-REGISTRATION FORM FOR **GLS 1995**
(Please provide your name and affiliation as you wish
them to appear on your badge.)
Name:
Affiliation:
Mailing address:
E-mail address:
Phone number:
Registration Fee. Please remit the appropriate registration
fee in the form of a check or money order made payable to
"Georgetown University":
Student Non-Student
Preregistration (through Feb. 10) $20.00 $30.00
On-site registration $30.00 $40.00
Other Needs: If you have any special requirements other
than those listed below, please inform the GLS no later
than January 15, 1995 so that appropriate arrangements
may be made.
Do you require American Sign Language interpretation?
Do you want crash space?
(Space is limited. Priority will be given to students on a
first-come basis.)
Do you want to be added to a room-sharing distribution
list?
______________________________________________________
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS ANNOUNCEMENT AS WIDELY AS
POSSIBLE. THANK YOU.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 12:31:44 -0500
From: Robert Kelly
Subject: Re: Eighty-six
The folk wisdom I grew up hearing had it that 86 arose from short order
cook/counterman/waiter jargon, and meant "we're out of" or "cancel the
order" depending on who was speaking. (An interesting instance of
context modulating actual denotation.) I have heard other two and three
digit code terms as well, from the same context (I recall that one meant
"glass of water," another "order of toast"), but can't remember the
actual digits.
And would-be writers think it's professional to type -30-30- at the
end of the story, = The End.
Best,
RK
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 13:40:45 CST
From: Mike Picone
Subject: Re: Eighty-six
Though I don't have an exact date, I can confirm that RU 486, invented
in France, was produced there under that name long before it ever made it
to American shores. The RU most certainly stands for Roussel-Uclaf, the
pharmaceutical concern that introduced it. In birth control (and the
controversy associated with aspects of it) many calqued expressions and
many terms have crossed the Altantic in the other direction: planning
familial, contraception (1929), contraceptif (1955), la "pilule",
Operation Sauvetage, "Le Cri Silencieux", etc., but
RU 486 is not one of them. It is a direct
import from France.
Here is a terminologically interesting passage from a pro-life pamphlet
appearing in Sept. 1992:
Un projet de loi socialiste visant a la depenalisation de l'auto-avortement,
dont le seul but, au dela du rideau de fumee des bons sentiments, etait
d'ouvrir la porte a la vente libre du RU 486 -- l'avortement-kit ou le
revolver dans le tiroir de la table de nuit, selon l'heureuse expression
du professeur Lejeune -- a ete repousse, grace au courage et a la lucidite
du Senat essentiellement. On n'en a pratiquement pas parle. C'est pourtant
une deroute pour les fondamentalistes du lobby pro-avortement.
Mike Picone
University of Alabama
MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Nov 1994 to 12 Nov 1994
************************************************
There is one message totalling 11 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. swan/swanny (and Suwanee)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 01:31:47 -0500
From: "Gregory J. Pulliam"
Subject: Re: swan/swanny (and Suwanee)
Has anyone heard a tie-in for Sewanee, TN? Is this just a corrupt spelling "corrupt" (I love
that usage of corrupt) spelling of Suwanee, or is there some other es xplana
tion? The Suwanne river runs nowhere near Sewanne ee, TN. , BTW.
GJP
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Nov 1994 to 13 Nov 1994
************************************************
There are 9 messages totalling 176 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. On the other 86 (4)
2. Freeway names (2)
3. word geography (2)
4. where did _this_ come from?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 00:07:33 -0600
From: Joan Livingston-Webber
Subject: On the other 86
When you're thrown out of bar, you got 86'd. (San Francisco,
1968)
--
Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."
-Clifford Geertz
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 22:15:21 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: On the other 86
On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, Joan Livingston-Webber wrote:
> When you're thrown out of bar, you got 86'd. (San Francisco,
> 1968)
My mother uses "86'd" this way. She's been a Californian all her 82
years, except for some army time in WWII in the WAAC.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 23:56:55 -0800
From: "Joseph B. Monda"
Subject: Re: On the other 86
I first heard the expression "86" in milwaukee in 1949 from the lips of a
KC Mo native who explained that it related to the number of a Kansas City
Ordnance having to do with illegal drinking (at that time we wer both
under age. Eheu fugaces labuntur anni!)
Joe Monda
On Sun, 13 Nov 1994, Birrell Walsh wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, Joan Livingston-Webber wrote:
>
> > When you're thrown out of bar, you got 86'd. (San Francisco,
> > 1968)
>
> My mother uses "86'd" this way. She's been a Californian all her 82
> years, except for some army time in WWII in the WAAC.
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL
From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Freeway names
> On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> > [South African actors] put flaps in "utah".
>
> eh? whazzis "flaps in Utah"
>
(actually, i should've said "a flap in utah")
flap = what americans do to t's between vowels (why no one here knows
what i'm talking about when i ask for a "glaess uv waddrr")
______________________________________________________________________
M. Lynne Murphy
104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za
Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340
University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030
Johannesburg 2050 South Africa
"Comprehension is only a knowledge adequate to our intention."
--Immanuel Kant
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 08:11:00 EST
From: David Muschell
Subject: Re: On the other 86
Though the OED makes a slight pass at the etymology of 86 (indicating the
origin may have come about through a rhyme with "nix"), the Morris
Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins gives an interesting run-down on soda
jerks' code numbers of the '20's. 33 was for Cherry Coke, for example; 98
was the code for the assistant manager and came to be associated with
"pest"; 87 1/2 was the code for the boys to be on the lookout for a
good-looking girl coming their way; and 86 was the code number when an item
wasn't in stock. The reference goes on to say that the soda fountain code
number got passed into bartender's lingo as a way of alerting another
server that a customer had had enough to imbibe and no more booze should be
poured for that particular guzzler.
Old Dad met Mom there at the fountain where he lured her into conversation
with free Sundaes, phosphates, and banana splits. I'll ask him about the
code, though his malting days were in the early forties.
David
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 07:57:28 -0800
From: Allen Maberry
Subject: Re: word geography
In Portland, OR it was called a sow bug.
Allen
maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu
On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Natalie Maynor wrote:
> > That critter that Wayne wrote about, that curls up when you touch
> > it--looks like a trilobyte, right?--is a SOW BUG around here. (Of
> > course, it's not an insect). That may be a book word.
>
> No, no -- it's a rolypoly!
> --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 12:01:29 -0500
From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET
Subject: Re: where did _this_ come from?
The "What cost x" may simple be special to math texts. In Jamaica in
the mid-1960s I encountered it in arithmetic books which I'm pretty
sure were English in origin. Maybe that's why it doesn't sound archaic
to me! think also of "what price freedom" etc...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:03:45 -0800
From: Birrell Walsh
Subject: Re: Freeway names
On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
> >
> > > [South African actors] put flaps in "utah".
> >
> > eh? whazzis "flaps in Utah"
> >
> (actually, i should've said "a flap in utah")
>
> flap = what americans do to t's between vowels (why no one here knows
> what i'm talking about when i ask for a "glaess uv waddrr")
Am I right in my impression that the Spanish rolled "r" is a series of flaps?
Birrell
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 18:06:57 -0600
From: Daniel S Goodman
Subject: Re: word geography
On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Robert Kelly wrote:
> With two of those words (The Stockade, roomeke) you could be from
> Ellenville NY (or anywhere on the western slopes of the southern
> Catskills).
Extremely close -- I'm from between Accord and Kerhonkson; not quite
walking distance of Ellenville, but close enough for an experienced hiker.
Only doodlebug affirms the north midlands, I guess.
I got that from the same area. I learned only in that rather specialized
sense -- a car converted into a tractor.
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Nov 1994 to 14 Nov 1994
************************************************
There is one message totalling 32 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. "it's been a slice"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:52:00 -0600
From: Katherine Catmull
Subject: "it's been a slice"
Forgive me if this is not the appropriate forum for my question--I'm new here.
I'm trying to track down the source of the expression "It's been a slice,"
as a mildly ironic way of saying "Goodbye, it's been fun."
My mother, who still uses both expressions, says it's short for "It's been
a slice of good wholesome fun" and was current circa 1947.
She's from Minnesota, but a quick check with her sisters showed they are
unfamiliar with the expression. It may be that they were a bit off the
right age for picking up this expression. More likely my mother learned it
in Yellowstone Park, where she worked that summer and several summers
thereafter. My father, who was half-raised in the park, is also familiar
with the expression.
The problem with Yellowstone as a source is that young people from all
across North America come to work there, so it doesn't really help me know
where the expression originated, whether it is indeed short for "It's been
a slice of good wholesome fun," etc.
I've checked several reference work and found no mention of this. If anyone
has any information, let me know. Thanks.
Kate
kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Nov 1994 to 15 Nov 1994
************************************************
There are 13 messages totalling 442 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. mayfly
2. On the other 86 (4)
3. "it's been a slice . . ."
4. Anyone familiar with the following expressions?
5. hope how soon ... (3)
6. WWW/Gopher/ftp
7. Blast from the Past
8. another source for 86?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:02:16 -0500
From: Mike Agnes
Subject: mayfly
Mark Ingram inquires:
> Now what do you undertand by the term mayfly?
DARE records "Canadian soldier" as a northern Ohio
term for mayfly. Local informants here (mostly over
45) confirm they know the term but haven't seen
need to use it in recent years. Our files contain
citations dating from the 1970s and 1980s. But
mayflies in northern Ohio have decreased remarkably
in the past decade and a half, supposedly as the
result of changing water conditions along Lake Erie's
shores. Such changes are said to have begun reversing
in the last few years, and an increase in the mayfly
population has already been noticed, so maybe the
current younger generation will have to "revive"
the word.
From elsewhere, see the following citation:
"Except to fish and fishermen and Ephemerida of the
opposite sex, the Green Bay fly or Canadian soldier or
American soldier is an unmitigated pest. The town of
Green Bay straddles the Fox River where it empties into
the waters of Green Bay at its southernmost tip. The
Green Bay fly breeds along the marshy shores of the bay.
He is either too light or two lazy to fly against
the wind but once in a while, not necessarily every
summer, conditions are just right when a hatch comes on.
Or just wrong from the Green Bay Sanitation Department's
point of view."
-- New York Times, 28 May 1979
Mike Agnes
Internet: by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.freenet.edu
Bitnet: by971%cleveland.freenet.edu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cunyvm
fax: 216 579 1255
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:25:41 EST
From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: On the other 86
From: NAME: David Bergdahl
FUNC: English
TEL: (614) 593-2783
To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX
I haven't been a radio ham in 40 yrs, but the AARL handbook usaed to have
numeral expressions (e.g. "88" = love & kisses) which were originally used in
telegraphy. Perhaps 86 is one of those, but I'm only guessing. The only
context I've ever seen it is on resturant menus.
DAVID
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:52:13 EST
From: Wayne Glowka
Subject: Re: On the other 86
Last Monday night on _Northern Exposure_, Chris fired his contractor and
hollered out something about his being 86'ed.
P.S. Does either UT or some other Texas institution have a branch campus
in or near Laredo? Please respond directly to
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu. Thanks.
Wayne Glowka
Professor of English
Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
Georgia College
Milledgeville, GA 31061
912-453-4222
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 07:18:20 PST
From: "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,
CO"
Subject: Re: On the other 86
And don't forget Agent 86 from the old Get Smart TV series.
My understanding on "86" has always been that it references the standard proof
on most whiskey bottles, meaning about 43% alcohol content. In a bar, when a
patron has had too much to drink, he is eighty-sixed, asked to leave.
-- Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:03:00 CST
From: Tom Murray
Subject: "it's been a slice . . ."
I don't know anything about the phrase "it's been a slice . . . ", but I can't
help noticing that it bears a striking resemblance, both structurally and seman
tically, to other phrases that I've used/heard/wondered about: "it's been grea
t"; "it's been real"; and so forth. Could one have spawned the others? Surely
all this is not one large linguistic coincidence?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:34:29 EST
From: Rex Pyles
Subject: Anyone familiar with the following expressions?
Hello! I am a recent subscriber to this list. I have a few
questions about expressions that are natural to me,although
living in New England for many years I no longer use them.
I grew up in central West Virginia.
1)'I hope how soon' as in "I hope how soon it quits raining."
2) [to be] just before [doing something] "We're just before
goin' out (We're fixin' to go out)."
3) 'to take a class _to_ a teacher, as in "I have a class
to [with] Professor Jones.
4) "Let's go see us a movie this evening."
Thanks. Rex
P.S. RE the 'I swan' question: I remember people of my
grandmother's (1878-1961) generation using this to express
surprise or perhaps "mild" disbelief. "Well, I DO know!" seemed to
be used to express surprise but not disbelief.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:02:49 -0500
From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK"
Subject: hope how soon ...
What a neat question. Several years ago, when I was interviewing in Johnson
County, TN, I recorded the expression twice in one day. I had never either
heard it or seen it, so I was delighted with it. The first time I heard it
was in the morning. I had visited a general store in one corner of the
county, where the owner has invited ,me to visit and record if I wanted to.
It was "check day" so it was busy. Folks were paying their monthly bills and
buying groceries. There had been a bit of a dry spell, and one farmer was
buying corn for his hogs and complaining about having to buy feed. At
pne point, he looked skyward and said, "I hope how soon it rains!"
That evening I attended a birthday dinner for the mother of the owner of
the local (and only county) radio station. She (the mother) lived in a
house what had been refurbished recently. The living room ceiling had been
texturized and sprayed with a paint containing little sparkles of some
sort--I don't know what they are called--and the little sparkles were
occasionally falling on the floor. Someone pointed out to her that they
were falling, and she replied, "I hope how soon they all fall down!"
I have the earlier occurrence on tape, but not the latter, unfortunately.
I'd love to know what other people know about the construction
Johnson CO. is practically in North Carolina, very near West Virginia--and that
area was the first place I interviewed in TN where illiteracy was a routine
fact.
Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu (English, U of TN, Knoxville 37996)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:48:00 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: WWW/Gopher/ftp
The MSU Computing Center has given us space for ADS files accessible via
WWW, gopher, and anonymous ftp. What kinds of things would you like to
see there? I've got logs of ADS-L postings going back a couple of years,
although not all the way back to the beginning of the list's existence.
Those logs are one possible thing to make available. What else? What
about syllabi, etc? And does anybody have any suggestions for interesting
visual or sound effects for WWW? If you have any gifs or sound files that
you think would enhance a WWW page, please send them to me. You can either
e-mail them to me uuencoded or anonymous ftp them to ftp.msstate.edu and
put them in the directory incoming/words-l.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:40:47 EST
From: David Muschell
Subject: Re: hope how soon ...
Working in Oklahoma in the early '70's, I often heard, "Hope ya'
good luck."
David
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:20:32 CST
From: Joan Hall
Subject: Re: hope how soon ...
DARE has examples of both "hope you good luck" (at hope v1) and "hope how
soon" (at how, conj). Glad to have these additional citings, though.
Joan Hall
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:42:24 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Blast from the Past
Although I didn't save all of the early ADS-L mail, I did stumble across
the following in a file I had named ADS/misc/firstday:
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 08:52:36 EST
From: Bill Kretzschmar
Subject: Re: We Are Still Four
To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon,
25 Nov 1991 06:45:52 CST from
Hi Cindy, Natalie, and Bitnet-Beagle:
My, Natalie, you're an early riser this Monday AM.
ADS-L is off to a good start even if we DO only have three subscribers so far,
and that's because any start is a good start. We'll get more folks, especially
when Allan Metcalf puts a notice in NADS. In the meantime we can let people
know privately that the list is up.
Do either of you know, by the way, anything about the Heinle and Heinle
publishers of ESL materials?
Bill Kretzschmar
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 11:21:00 CST
From: Dennis Baron
Subject: knock knock
To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L
The response to the subject line is who's there? So that's
what I'm asking. I've never joined a list from the beginning
and I don't have a topic to introduce, other than to tell
Bill Kretzschmar I think this is a good idea and to ask if
we'll eventually get some sense of who is on the list. I've
been on several lists but always find the discussion tangential
to my own interests. Of course now that we have a list of our
own all this will change, right?
--
debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu ____________ 217-333-2392
|:~~~~~~~~~~:| fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron |: :|
Dept. of English |: db :|
Univ. of Illinois |: :|
608 S. Wright St. |:==========:|
Urbana IL 61801 \\ """""""" \
\\ """""""" \
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 12:44:03 CST
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: knock knock
To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L
So far there are just four of us: Dennis Baron, Cindy Bernstein, Bill
Kretzschmar, Natalie Maynor. Surely others will join us soon. Any time
you want to see a list of subscribers, you can send this command to the
listserv (listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu or listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.bitnet):
review ads-l
If any of you know of people who want to be added to the list rather than
doing the subscribing themselves, tell them to send me a note. (I'm not
sure why anybody would find it easier to send me a note than to send the sub
command to the listserv, but you never know. Some people may be scared of
listservs.)
--Natalie (nm1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 15:49:51 EST
From: Bill Kretzschmar
Subject: Membership and habits
To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon,
25 Nov 1991 12:44:03 CST from
Hello, Dennis. Natalie forgot to mention that her dog is also a list member!
If we believe in animal rights that makes 5 of us; if not, 4 and a fraction.
I have written to Allan Metcalf to ask him to announce ADS-L in NADS. Until
then I wonder what we all think about announcing our existence. I imagine that
word will get around (I heard from John Baugh recently), but will we want to
post notice of ADS-L on WORDS-L or LINGUIST or HUMANIST or ANSAXNET? Natalie
and I thought not (in our brief founding conversation at SAMLA), but there are
other possible views. We have a list; let's discuss what we want on it.
I would suggest, for starters, a couple of habits (derived from membership on
ANSAXNET) that I hope we will encourage: 1) editing the subject line so that
messages sent with the reply function are on the same topic as the function,
and 2) signing messages at the end of the text instead of relying on sometimes
cryptic "From:" fields in the header.
Bill Kretzschmar
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 15:38:09 CST
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: Membership and habits
To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L
> Hello, Dennis. Natalie forgot to mention that her dog is also a list member!
> If we believe in animal rights that makes 5 of us; if not, 4 and a fraction.
Not only is Bernard Chien Perro a list member, he's also a co-owner. Don't
worry -- he's experienced -- he's co-owner of WORDS-L also. And now we are
six, by the way. John Baugh has joined us.
> post notice of ADS-L on WORDS-L or LINGUIST or HUMANIST or ANSAXNET? Natalie
> and I thought not (in our brief founding conversation at SAMLA), but there are
> other possible views. We have a list; let's discuss what we want on it.
Since subscription to this list is open to the public right now (which we
can change if that becomes a problem), it would probably not be a good idea
to announce the list very widely. That might attract list-hoppers with only
moderate interest in or knowledge of the topic. I don't think we really
want it to turn into something like WORDS-L. I say that with all due
respect for WORDS-L, a list I run and a list I love for reasons not related
to linguistics. (I'm already looking forward to the arrival of the WORDS-L
t-shirts and to the WORDS-L clambake that is scheduled for July 5 in
Providence, RI.) The traffic on WORDS-L often exceeds 100 messages a day,
about 5% of which are related to the topic. Announcing ADS-L on LINGUIST
might be ok. What do the rest of you think? I would vote a definite no
to announcing it on something like NEWLIST-L or having it listed in any
of the various lists of lists.
> I would suggest, for starters, a couple of habits (derived from membership on
> ANSAXNET) that I hope we will encourage: 1) editing the subject line so that
> messages sent with the reply function are on the same topic as the function,
> and 2) signing messages at the end of the text instead of relying on sometimes
> cryptic "From:" fields in the header.
>
> Bill Kretzschmar
Good suggestions.
--Natalie (nm1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 17:08:00 CDT
From: BERN%AUDUCVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: membership
To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L
Membership, I'm sure, will blossom once the word is out. The early
subscribers are the ones who use e-mail at least twice daily; we
have to remember that there are those who don't.
I'm working to complete grant proposals to fund Language Variety in
the South, which some of you know will be held in conjunction with
Spring SECOL 1993. I want to send drafts to NEH and NSF before
Dec. 1; any suggestions from those with experience in these matters
would be appreciated.
--Cindy
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 21:35:55 CST
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Heinle and Heinle
To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L
Returning to Bill's question from this morning (when there were just three
subscribers to the list):
> Do either of you know, by the way, anything about the Heinle and Heinle
> publishers of ESL materials?
I sent the question to our ESL person and got this reply:
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 20:52:27 CST
> To: nm1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Ra.MsState.Edu
> Subject: Re: Heinle and Heinle
>
> Yes, in fact, at the Southeastern TESOL Conference, several participants
> noted that Heinle and Heinle are now involved in a grammar project. It
> looks very interesting although all I heard was a brief description by
> some of those involved. It is my impression that the company is moving
> agressively in ESL materials.
>
> What exactly does the person want to know about the company?
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:40:41 EST
From: David Bergdahl
Subject: another source for 86?
Ohio University Electronic Communication
Date: 16-Nov-1994 04:39pm EST
To: Remote Addressee ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )
From: David Bergdahl Dept: English
BERGDAHL Tel No: (614) 593-2783
Subject: another source for 86?
Received: 16-Nov-1994 04:40pm
Ohio University Electronic Communication
Date: 16-Nov-1994 08:17am EST
To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX
From: David Bergdahl Dept: English
BERGDAHL Tel No: (614) 593-2783
Subject: RE: On the other 86
I haven't been a radio ham in 40 yrs, but the AARL handbook usaed to have
numeral expressions (e.g. "88" = love & kisses) which were originally used in
telegraphy. Perhaps 86 is one of those, but I'm only guessing. The only
context I've ever seen it is on resturant menus.
DAVID
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:12:29 -0600
From: "Timothy C. Frazer"
Subject: Re: On the other 86
On Northern exposure--sure he didn't say deep sixed?
Tim Frazer
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Nov 1994 to 16 Nov 1994
************************************************
There are 15 messages totalling 336 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Anyone familiar with the following expressions? (4)
2. WWW/Gopher/ftp (6)
3. On the other 86 (3)
4. Allanon
5. Bare-Bones WWW/ftp
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:52:34 -0800
From: THOMAS CLARK
Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions?
Re: 4) "Let's go see us a movie." West VA
I don't know about the semantic constraints on the verb "see", but I've
used "let's go _get_ us a beer/let's go _get_ us lunch."
The difference between "see" and "get" may be significant. Let's us
think on that.
Cheers,
tlc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:16:32 -0800
From: THOMAS CLARK
Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp
Natalie asks for material for these wonderful resources that will be
available even when some of us learn about gif and pif and dif and all
that wonderful stuff of which I am totally ignorant and incapable of
downloading now.
But I just finished teaching my baby linguistics seminar.
Today we had Naming of the Parts, Ch 13, Finegan: Dialects.
I used tapes and records that date back to the Pleistocene.
How nice it would have been to use something I could have
downloaded that had been taped in a Minnesota mall yesterday,
or at a rock concert in Cleveland last week. I was embarrassed
when I had to tell the students that Florence Trawicky, aged 21
when she was recorded for _Americans Speaking_ is 54 years old this
year! A hard thing for young people when they listen to the
cheer-leading Southern Belle Sorority Sister par excellence on
that record.
I guess I need new material -- audio and visual -- (And yes, I use
_American Tongues_ as an out of class assignment).
Sigh,
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 08:21:18 EST
From: Wayne Glowka
Subject: Re: On the other 86
>On Northern exposure--sure he didn't say deep sixed?
>
>Tim Frazer
I thought he said the other, but then I could have been projecting from
reading all this stuff about 86. I happen to have a tape of the program.
If I get a chance this weekend, I'll doublecheck.
Wayne Glowka
Professor of English
Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
Georgia College
Milledgeville, GA 31061
912-453-4222
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 08:00:58 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp
> Natalie asks for material for these wonderful resources that will be
> available even when some of us learn about gif and pif and dif and all
> that wonderful stuff of which I am totally ignorant and incapable of
> downloading now.
Straight text will do for a start. So far, our space is totally empty.
Are you out there, Allan? How about some kind of description/history of
ADS to use as a starting point for the Web page? If you send it to me
as ordinary ASCII e-mail, I can then add the cute little html linking
codes etc. -- if I can figure out what to link to it. This kind of thing
is fun. Unfortunately I keep being distracted by annoyances like work.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:57:21 EST
From: Terry Lynn Irons
Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions?
Rex asks bout the following expression:
> 4) "Let's go see us a movie this evening."
This use is referred to in the literature as a personal dative.
I don't have a list of references handy, but I believe Wolfram and
Christain discuss it a bit in _Appalachian Speech_.
Terry,
--
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:05:05 EST
From: David Muschell
Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp
>> Natalie asks for material for these wonderful resources that will be
>> available even when some of us learn about gif and pif and dif and all
>> that wonderful stuff of which I am totally ignorant and incapable of
>> downloading now.
>
>Straight text will do for a start. So far, our space is totally empty.
>Are you out there, Allan? How about some kind of description/history of
>ADS to use as a starting point for the Web page? If you send it to me
>as ordinary ASCII e-mail, I can then add the cute little html linking
>codes etc. -- if I can figure out what to link to it. This kind of thing
>is fun. Unfortunately I keep being distracted by annoyances like work.
> --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Please! To me, whatever html linking codes are, they sound like strange
ogres living under this internet bridge, and this billy goat fears being
devoured or caught in some Web page. For those of us who travel this
super-highway in a horse and buggy, this doesn't sound fun.
David
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:31:17 EST
From: Mark Ingram
Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions?
On Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:57:21 EST Terry Lynn Irons said:
>Rex asks bout the following expression:
>> 4) "Let's go see us a movie this evening."
>
>This use is referred to in the literature as a personal dative.
>I don't have a list of references handy, but I believe Wolfram and
>Christain discuss it a bit in _Appalachian Speech_.
>
>Terry,
>
Is this similar to "I'm gonna buy me a sandwich."
I note the German dative "Ich kaufe mir..."
Mark Ingram
University of Ky
Medical Library-Reference
Lexington, Ky
maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:12:20 EST
From: Rex Pyles
Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions?
Thanks for your reply. I thought a while and it seems to me
that verbs like 'buy, get, see(as in a movie), even 'read' --
as in "What are you going to do over vacation?"
"I'm going to read me a good book."
are used. It is as if (it seems to me right now) the pronoun
were a type of dative (if you think of underlying case grammar).
Shakespeare wrote (was it in Hamlet?) "Slay me yonder villain!"
Ciao. Rex Pyles
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 11:01:15 -0500
From: Allan Denchfield
Subject: Allanon
Natalie suggested/inquired:
> Straight text will do for a start. So far, our space is totally empty.
> Are you out there, Allan?
Every time I salivate, you ring the bell. There must be at least 3 Allans
I know that can fill an empty space, myself included, but for the task
you propose I defer to the Allan you intended.
-AOBD (another Allan)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:38:26 EST
From: Lana Strickland
Subject: Re: On the other 86
No need to doublecheck, Wayne. I can vouch for you on this one...he
said "you're 86ed...your outa here....." It caught my ear, too.
Lana Strickland
lstrick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>On Northern exposure--sure he didn't say deep sixed?
>
>Tim Frazer
I thought he said the other, but then I could have been projecting from
reading all this stuff about 86. I happen to have a tape of the program.
If I get a chance this weekend, I'll doublecheck.
Wayne Glowka
Professor of English
Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
Georgia College
Milledgeville, GA 31061
912-453-4222
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:28:04 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp
> Please! To me, whatever html linking codes are, they sound like strange
> ogres living under this internet bridge, and this billy goat fears being
> devoured or caught in some Web page. For those of us who travel this
> super-highway in a horse and buggy, this doesn't sound fun.
It is true that the ogres do strange things at times. Early this morning
on my home-rigged winsock/mosaic (since my office computer is too feeble
to run mosaic at all), I was merrily browsing through pictures in Italy
when a box suddenly popped onto my screen saying "Alert! Unexpected Heap!"
and I found myself transported back to my own little computer world of
Starkville, Mississippi. At least the heap didn't devour me or trap me
forever. If any of you can explain to me what creature an unexpected heap
is, I'd appreciate it.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:23:40 -0600
From: Katherine Catmull
Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp
>Please! To me, whatever html linking codes are, they sound like strange
>ogres living under this internet bridge, and this billy goat fears being
>devoured or caught in some Web page. For those of us who travel this
>super-highway in a horse and buggy, this doesn't sound fun.
Oh, it is fun. Hypertext (html) allows you to follow your whims and
interests instantly while you're reading. With a click or two, you can
pursue a string of related documents stretching all over the world. Hop on
out of that horse & buggy and into Mosaic or something like it. The
software is free and easy, and the experience is liberating.
Kate
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:35:40 EST
From: Wayne Glowka
Subject: Re: On the other 86
>No need to doublecheck, Wayne. I can vouch for you on this one...he
>said "you're 86ed...your outa here....." It caught my ear, too.
>
>Lana Strickland
Thanks. I ain't got time right now for anything! Quarter ends before
Thanksgiving!
Wayne Glowka
Professor of English
Director of Research and Graduate Student Services
Georgia College
Milledgeville, GA 31061
912-453-4222
wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu
BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:34:32 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp
> Oh, it is fun. Hypertext (html) allows you to follow your whims and
> interests instantly while you're reading. With a click or two, you can
> pursue a string of related documents stretching all over the world. Hop on
Not to mention getting to hear my dog bark:
http://walt.cs.msstate.edu/~maynor/
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 21:13:08 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Bare-Bones WWW/ftp
Thanks to Allan, ADS now has the beginning of some WWW pages. He sent
me a description that I chopped into pieces so we'd have some different
pages. And then I added a page about ADS-L, linked to the list logs that
I just put in ftp space.
I hope some of you will explore the pages and send suggestions. Remember
this is just the bare-bones beginning.
Here's the URL:
http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/Words-L
(The MSU home page will have a link to it sometime soon.)
For ftp:
ftp.msstate.edu
pub/archives/ADS
So far, the only thing in the ftp space is list logs -- all in the
subdirectory List-Logs/. Remember that Unix is case sensitive.
If anybody objects to making these logs public, please speak up!
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
P.S. Our gopher link will be in place soon.
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Nov 1994 to 17 Nov 1994
************************************************
There are 34 messages totalling 804 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Pleonastic pronouns (?) (2)
2. Anyone familiar with the following expressions? (3)
3. Seeking Pictures
4. WWW
5. FTP ADS-L (copy to David Hale) (2)
6. www site
7. WWW/Gopher/ftp (2)
8. Services for Mike Miller
9. Suwanee (4)
10. new (?) s/sh variation in English before /tr/ (3)
11. New Book: Grammar in Many Voices, Marilyn Silva (2)
12. song lyrics (6)
13. 'supernatural' vs 'natural'
14. Gopher is Ready
15. Thanks
16. Recent Black English (2)
17. Call for abstracts: Computer-mediated discourse analysis
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:09:48 GMT
From: "Warren A. Brewer"
Subject: Pleonastic pronouns (?)
Rex Pyles mentions Dative in reference to constructions like,
Name that tune: I'm gonna cry me a river over you.
Curious how this seems to parallel Latin phenomena. Latin grammarians
use terms like dativus (in)commodi ("dative of (dis)advantage"),
dativus ethicus ("ethical dative"), dativus symaptheticus.
These dative uses were frequently colloquial, and "pleonastic" in the
sense that the literary language found them superfluous. These
datives expressed something more personal, even "warmer" according to
Hofmann-Szantyr.
For English there's probably even a usage hierarchy for some examples:
(1) I'm gonna cry me a river over you. (bare objective pronoun)
(2) I'm gonna cry myself a river over you. (-self form)
(3) I am going to cry a river over you. (expurgated, ala Stan
Freeberg)
---Wab.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 00:44:23 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance"
Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions?
A. A. Hill quote in class a sentence he'd actually heard, with all the
"objects":
We've elected us Ike president.
As I recall, he indicated that the speaker gave signals of awareness that he
was playing with language, but not violating grammaticality. It seems to me
that the question is statistical probability or something like that rather
than straight-out grammar.
I'm gonna fry me an egg right now
I'm gonna buy me a Power Mac as a retirement present ('myself' would not have
the same reading for me)
I'm gonna read me a book right now
So you fried you an egg and ate it immediately, did you?
I bought me a good book yesterday
*He bought him a good book yesterday
?You bought you a good book yesterday
This construction has very limited probabilities of occurrence -- situationally
constrained. One could "dismiss" them as something like figurative use of
language. Or is this part of the creative element inherent in human language?
DMLance
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 06:04:10 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Seeking Pictures
If any of you have WWW personal home pages with your pictures on them,
please let me know. At first the concept of personal home pages struck
me as silly, especially the idea of having your picture flash onto computer
screens, but gradually I started recognizing the usefulness. If, for
example, you're about to go to a meeting somewhere, knowing what people
look like can help you find somebody you want to see. I was thinking that
we might have a section in the ADS pages called something like "The Faces of
ADS" and include pictures.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:18:26 -0500
From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK"