INGRAM: Okay. What are the names of your brothers and sisters, or do you have

any brothers and sisters?

WELLS: I have no brothers or sisters.

INGRAM: Okay. When did you first arrive in Ypsilanti?

WELLS: September 1959.

INGRAM: Why did you come to Ypsilanti?

WELLS: Well, for a number of reasons, primarily because, uh, Miss [Marietta

Quick], the Director, or rather the Placement College Teacher at the Universityof Pennsylvania, was looking for some blacks to take jobs in schools that didn't2:00have any black faculty members. And when the opening came at Eastern shecontacted me and asked me if I would apply for it.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So how long have you been a resident at Ypsilanti?

WELLS: Since September 1959.

INGRAM: Since 1959. That's fascinating. What I'd like to ask you specifically is

a variety of questions, like what have been some of your observations aboutblack life in Ypsilanti since you've been here? Uh, and especially in, uh, threeareas primarily, education, uh, socially and, and, uh, in terms of the blackleadership. So I'll be more specifically, specific when I talk about the blackleader aspect, but in terms of race relations would you consider Ypsilanti tohave been a conservative or a liberal community? What are some of your observations?

WELLS: I mean that for example, all black teachers were in one school in the

public schools. All of the black teachers were at Yp- at Yp- at Perry School andthe ones who went into other schools, 'cause there was only one other that hadblack teach elementary level, they first had to prove themselves at Perry beforethey were commit- before they were transferred to teach in schools where theyhad white kids. I brought this up with the acting superintendent of schools andhe said he thought that was a good idea.

INGRAM: How did you feel about it? What did-

WELLS: Well, I bawled him out for saying it. As a matter of fact, he was rather

shocked because he knew me and, uh, we'd never had any [ ] contact before. Butthat was at the time that I decided that something had to be done aboutsegregation and discrimination in Ypsilanti Public Schools.

INGRAM: So it was pretty rampant then, eh?

WELLS: Yes. I felt that, you know, no one...People talked about it, but no one

WELLS: So I joined NAACP and [laughter] took over the leadership of the

education chairman-

INGRAM: Yeah.

WELLS: ...and got things started.

INGRAM: Your observation on segregation in the public school system, did you

also find it to be so at Eastern? And what were your observations, uh, aboutEastern upon first arriving, your experiences there of?

WELLS: Well, it was interesting. When I came, uh, apparently they had not been

able to decide on anyone for this position during this summer. So I came up foran interview and I guess my interview was successful. They offered me the job.At the time they told me that 5% of the student body at Eastern was black. Uh,Eastern had a little less than 5,000 students and if, uh, 5% was black they had'em hidden. I couldn't find them, but I was the only black faculty member. No,5:00no black had been able to get tenure before then apparently.

INGRAM: [Laughs]

WELLS: So I more or less told them if I came I'd stay as long as I wanted to and

if they didn't want me to not to hire me.

INGRAM: What do you see as some of the reasons why no black had been able to

acquire tenure?

WELLS: I think it was, uh, attitude of the...It must have been the attitude of

the administration, and particularly in the departments. Um, one department hadtold me that he, after I came, that he was interested in finding a, well to usehis words, a colored person who had a doctorate degree, because they were afraidto hire one with less than that because if he didn't get any pr- advancement hewould say it was because of his color when actually it would be because-

INGRAM: [Laughs]

WELLS: ...of their regulations. Then, uh, as I said when I came, I came with the

understanding that if I accepted a job as an assistant professor I'd be promoted6:00in two years, which happened right on schedule.

INGRAM: How long did this kind of, uh, particular treatment continue and, and

what time did it begin to get better in terms of improvement from your perspective?

WELLS: Well, [sighs] of course I personally didn't have any problem in terms of

discrimination and so forth. As a matter of fact if I asked for advice they were[ ] [laughs] to give it. Maybe because I'm not the most convivial person in theworld. From 1959 to 1964 I was the only black on the faculty.

INGRAM: What college were you in?

WELLS: College of Education. And in '64 I persuaded Dr. Lamar Miller to apply.

And he was hired by the College of Education in that same year, I believe, thatDr. Buchanan, who was a doctorate student at University of Michigan, came to thespeech department.7:00

INGRAM: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Could you, uh, try and give me a chronology or an

overview in terms, uh, things as they were versus, uh, how things got better?You know, or did things get better, in fact?

WELLS: Oh, boy. That's a hard one to answer. I supposed that, uh, after Buchanan

and Miller came we began to make some impact, but I think the real beginning forchange probably didn't come until, well into, further into the '60s, uh, whenthe stu- we had the stu- black students sit in at Eastern. I called the blackfaculty what the ... It had increased then to where there were perhaps fivefaculty members and a number of people in other positions.

WELLS: But anyway, we, I called the black faculty together and we organized a

Black Faculty Association.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: And Henry became a member of that right after that.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: Uh, and then we pushed, of course, for more faculty. We also took on some

of the problems, took on the problems that the students had and we met with thepresident. But by that time we did have another president, Sponberg was here,9:00and, uh, he was b- he was more open to discussion and so forth than the previouspresident had been.

INGRAM: What was the name of the previous president?

WELLS: I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that [laughs]. He was the president when

I came and to save me I can't think of his name.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: Uh, he was a former state superintendent of school and the, and been with

the Republican party.

INGRAM: Okay, yeah.

WELLS: But, uh, anyway, uh, that point is we began to req-, uh, ask for more and

more black participation and we, and so forth. We began to get more and more blacks.

INGRAM: In terms of, in terms of promoting social change in the campuses, were

you, and if you were, what kind of the social changes were you able to promoteand get, and get it enacted as part of [ ].

WELLS: Social changes?

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Oh, that's a difficult, that's a difficult one.

INGRAM: Well, educational changes.

WELLS: Because [ ]...I suppose, see, I was on a number of committees and, uh, I

10:00was one of the presidents of the representative council, Chairman ofRepresentative Council of the College of Education. Uh, I worked with the, uh-

INGRAM: [sneezes]

WELLS: ...fac-, I mean the faculty ... What was it? Faculty-

INGRAM: Senate?

WELLS: I have it down here. No, it had to do with fraternities and s- on the

campus. I worked with that group. I think the, the most difficult, one of themost difficult problems we had, and it's been true of blacks on many campuses inthis country with the matter of promotions-

INGRAM: Mmm.

WELLS: I, um, as I said I came with the com- the commitment that I would get

promoted to Associate Professor, which happened in '61. But then when I appliedfor the, for a full professorship, they found any number of reasons why theywould not, uh, promote me. And, uh, that was about the same time that I wasinvolved in trying to do something about the situation in the public schools.11:00And so I finally talked with the Dean and I told him I'd been busy, you know,working for the kids and so forth. This was in spring of '67, but I was ready tostart working for myself. And I also informed him that if I didn't get apromotion that I would not take it lying down and et cetera, et cetera, that hewould have a fight on his hands. So he turned me down again and I appealed itand during the course of the discussion they decided that perhaps it would bemore expedient to give me the final promotion then to not. And of course, toshow one of the ways things had changed, when, uh, Dr. Henry came, he came as afull professor.

INGRAM: Oscar Henry?

WELLS: Uh-huh.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: But Oscar came, it must have been '68, or fall of '67, 'cause I had my

WELLS: He came either that year or the following year. I'm not sure exactly which.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: I could look it up but you can get that.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm. Also, um, what have, have been, uh, over a long time period,

some of your observations, uh, in regard to black leadership in Ypsilanti, sayover, uh, since 1959 versus today in terms of progress? Could you provide mewith the names of perhaps, uh, some of the black leaders or community leadersback then and what you saw them doing or what the community was into versus today?

WELLS: Well, I, I guess that when I came here the really strong community leader

was John Burton, who was involved, of course, in the city government.

INGRAM: Who was he?

WELLS: At that time he was a member of the city council. He was the only black

member of city council. He was not the first, but he was the only one at thattime. And, uh, he also became the first mayor of Ypsilanti.13:00

INGRAM: First black mayor?

WELLS: First black mayor.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: There was some considerable, uh, commotion in connection with this, uh-

INGRAM: Hmm.

WELLS: We went down at the NAACP and others to council meetings and, and of

course their argument then was that the city of Ypsilanti was not ready for ablack mayor. And of course, John told them that was hogwash.

INGRAM: [laughs]

WELLS: Of course, [laughs] he put it a little more positive than that.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: So the next time around they did elect him mayor and of course, in the

field of education it was, uh, Amos Washington, who had been a former citycouncil member and who at that time was in charge of the city housing.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: And, uh, was also a member of the school board. He was the only black

member of the school board, and he was a very good man, but not a fighter.

INGRAM: Okay, Amos?

WELLS: Amos Washington. And he would tell you, you know, he would tell you that

14:00that's not my bag. So when I started to fight with the school [laughs] board, Igot, you know, I got information in advance about what was planned for him. He'snot living now so I can say this [laughs].

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: He would let me know in advance what was coming up, so when I went to the

board meeting I knew exactly where to get started. And we had some very strongconfrontations. This is-

INGRAM: School board.

WELLS: ...school board. When I say we, and I'm going to say this-

INGRAM: Sure.

WELLS: ...it started out with three of us going to the school board. Reverend

make the people, Chamber of Commerce come to him to get his dues. [Laughs]. Hewas, he was sending down. You know, he's that kind of per-, but with the League itself-16:00

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: ...and so I quit and we organized Emanon Club.

INGRAM: What, what, is that, that's a acronym, isn't it?

WELLS: Uh-

INGRAM: Emanon Club?

WELLS: Yeah.

INGRAM: Meaning?

WELLS: No Name.

INGRAM: No name?

WELLS: Uh-huh.

INGRAM: Just No Name Club?

WELLS: Yeah. Emanon is No Name backwards.

INGRAM: Oh. Oh, okay. Okay. Oh, okay.

WELLS: And so we organized the Emanon Club because we wanted more action, and

not just we ... We started out doing lots of things. For example, for, when, uh,Ypsilanti was, uh...All the election was on the city-wide basis. The Emanon Clubpractically picked and got elected all of the black council members after John Burton.

INGRAM: Who were the members of the Emanon Club?

WELLS: Hmm.

INGRAM: They were separate from the Ypsilanti Business and Professional League, right?

WELLS: Yes. Some people had membership in both and still do, like Vanzetti

Hamilton has-

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: ...a membership in both.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: A number of our members, of course, original members have gone.

INGRAM: Why was there need to form the Emanon Club?

WELLS: 'Cause we felt we needed a group of people who, uh, had not already made

WELLS: Let's see if you can follow me. For example, I understand some time in

the past before I came here there'd been a move to end discrimination in thepublic schools. It had fallen through, and, uh, these people more or less werenot ready to try again. There's sort of, I think they had sort of a defeatistattitude. They, they organized as the, supposedly the black equivalent of theChamber of Commerce.

INGRAM: The Emanon Club?

WELLS: No.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: Business Professionals.

INGRAM: Oh, Business Professional League, yeah.

WELLS: And so we felt, there were many of us who felt that, uh, maybe they were

not direct enough. Maybe they were not really getting out trying to bring about change.

INGRAM: How come you didn't seek to promote change through the NAACP? What, the

Emanon Club was separate from-

WELLS: I was working with both of them.

INGRAM: Okay. So how, how...Was the Emanon Club more radical then than NAACP

too, more militant or what?

WELLS: Well, when I first came here the NAACP had practically gone out of business.

WELLS: No, really. It was, uh, re-start, it was started again by Marguerite

Eaglin and, uh, Herb Francois, and I got in on this, too. And so I was with the,for a while I was with all three groups and finally I dropped out of theProfessional League.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: But, uh, at that time at the NAACP we were working primarily on housing

and employment.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: We were doing nothing in the area of education. Housing and employment.

And this was a real problem.

INGRAM: Who was-

WELLS: We would take- We would take people down to take the test for a job and

then we'd be told that they didn't pass the test. And we asked what the passingscore was and what this kid's test scores were and it was privilegedinformation. So we could never find out what passing was or what the scoreswere. A couple of people went out of, a couple of places went out of businessrather than to have to deal with this at that time.

INGRAM: Who were some of the community leaders during this time period? [ ]

Hamilton. I guess among the young people one of the most effective was Reverend Roberson.

INGRAM: Which one, S.L. or Garther?

WELLS: S.L..

INGRAM: S.L..

WELLS: Garther was not a minister then.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: Uh, S.L. was effective at long, up through the teens. After that he

tended to lose them. Well-

INGRAM: I'm sorry. Explain that better for me.

WELLS: [Sighs] Well, you see, S.L., and I'm saying this, I don't know how you

can use it, is a high school graduate.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: When these kids got up and went to college and finished high school and

20:00came back, they became a little bit intolerant of his inability to expresshimself, his old fashioned method of approach and so forth. This is what I ...It was not, uh, anything that was wrong with him. It was just that he was notprepared to handle them in this period of transition. Some of them came backlater on, but, uh, he tended to lose them at that point. And of course, I workedwith him, uh, for a period of time. I put in a Christian Education program athis church. I reorganized the financial program at his church and then hedecided he wanted to tell me how to live, so I left. [Laughs] Neither preacher,teacher, or anyone else can tell me how to live. He couldn't understand that,and I would help him. And I've helped [ ]. I'll help them on my time, not theirs.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

WELLS: And that they would not impose theirs on. It causes some problems, but

WELLS: I don't know whether I'm giving you the kind of answers you want or not.

INGRAM: Sure, sure. I want, I want your answers.

WELLS: Mm-hmm.

INGRAM: You know, your feelings.

WELLS: And, uh, of course on the campus...Going back to the campus again. The

real problem in discrimination, except for salary and promotion, the realproblem is students. Uh, when Eastern started growing, they grew so fast theycould be very selective in terms of students they admitted. And at one time thegrade requirements for admission to Eastern was higher than it was at theUniversity of Michigan.

INGRAM: What year was this?

WELLS: Oh, this was, uh, mmm, I would say in the late '60s and, uh, on into the '70s.

INGRAM: You said that the admissions requirement at Eastern was higher than that

at Michigan. Why was that? What are your observations?

WELLS: The, uh, the, well...It was that Eastern was getting so many applications

and they didn't have the facilities, so they were able to pick and choose. Forexample, anyone with a B average was admitted, less than a B average, say Cplus, they had to be admitted, they were admitted by, uh, examination.

INGRAM: By examination.

WELLS: Uh-huh. So this was when we had, we made a very strong push for black

students, for many black students coming out of high school, because of lack ofmotivation or whatever. There's no relation between the grades they made in highschool and their potential. We finally got the agreement that for, how was it,four semesters they would not be dropped. Give them a chance to [laughs]...

INGRAM: Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. What have been some of your

observations, um, of the problems that were facing the black community in23:00Ypsilanti? How did, how did, what was your perception of the black community atYpsilanti? How did you see the problems besetting it and, and-

WELLS: I, I felt that the black community in Ypsilanti, when I came here, was

rather complacent. Uh, they had their own school. They wanted their own school.Uh, they didn't realize what was happening to the kids there when they went tojunior high, the conflict. For two groups who had been separated up until, youknow, [laughs] teenage and then brought, suddenly brought together and, youknow...For example, East Junior High, it was awful. The kids, the black kidssometimes white kids say hi. They say, "What the hell you speaking to me for?"You know.

INGRAM: So you're saying that blacks attended Perry and whites attended East

Junior High.

WELLS: No. What I'm saying is the blacks attended Perry but they did not come in

contact with whites-

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: ...until after they graduated from Perry School, many of them just right

over there in the south side. Then they went to East Junior High where they werebrought together with white students, who had come from schools where there were24:00no blacks.

INGRAM: Where, and when they got out of junior high school where did, what

school did they go to?

WELLS: They all went...Let's see. The blacks and whites both separately,

uh...integration began at junior high.

INGRAM: Okay. Okay.

WELLS: And this is where the problem was.

INGRAM: All right.

WELLS: When the white student and the black student first met.

INGRAM: I got you.

WELLS: 'Cause each one had his own group, his own cliques, his own everything.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: And now here we are, two sets of values and there so forth, and they ran

head into each other. At, uh, West Junior High was not as bad because, uh,Chapelle School was integrated. But East Junior High was a completely new,almost completely new association. Uh, housing, one member of city council madethe statement when, uh, Project 65, I guess it was, which was headed by DougHarris, who was also, I guess we put in community leaders group.

INGRAM: What was Project 60, 65?

WELLS: Project 65 was a project in which that group over there had decided they

25:00were going to bring about certain changes in Ypsilanti during the year of 1965.

INGRAM: And who was Doug Harris at this time?

WELLS: At this time? At this time he was Vice Mayor of the City of Ypsilanti. I

mean, not Vice Mayor, whatever they had then.

INGRAM: Was he a council man?

WELLS: Not at that time.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: And, um, Project 65 was saying that they needed more public housing-

INGRAM: Uh-huh.

WELLS: ...but not on the south side of the, of Michigan Avenue. That, uh, they

needed to spread it out in the rest of the city. And one member of city councilat that time made the statement that if blacks tried to move north of MichiganAvenue the streets would run red with blood.

INGRAM: One white council man made that statement?

WELLS: Mm-hmm. He was also a member of [laughs] Ford Motor Company and they

shipped, they immediately shipped him to California.

INGRAM: What was his name?

WELLS: I'm trying to think of his name. I don't remember his name. That, this is

26:00quite a while ago back in the '60s. And they shipped him to California. Uh, butanyway, there was this attempt to contain blacks.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: And the funny thing about it was there were people who got upset when

blacks moved out of that area. Like for example, when I bought a house in '64, Ibought a house on, uh, Summit Street, and a lot of people got really upset about that.

INGRAM: Where is that house located?

WELLS: Uh, you know where the tower is, the water tower, and you look to the

left there going toward Michigan Avenue, to the left you got these brickapartment houses?

INGRAM: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

WELLS: The next house was mine.

INGRAM: Oh, okay.

WELLS: 226-

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: ...North Summit Street. And I also understand that the people in the

community there got upset, which I didn't know. It was a long time before I knew it.

INGRAM: Hmm.

WELLS: Because as I said, no one said anything to me. The only thing I heard was

27:00when, uh, the day that I was getting ready to move in. I bought it, bought thehouse from Mel [Sudd], who was a member of the faculty, taught at Roosevelt HighSchool and Mel was, elementary school, and Mel was getting ready to accept aprincipal job in Massachusetts. And he told me he heard I wanted to buy a house.And he said [ ]. Well, I had to have a house so I was ready to push for it. So Ibought it, and the day before I was to move actually he was all upset and hesaid, "Phil, I have this need. I need to talk to you." I said, "Well..." Hesaid, "Yeah." He said, uh, "Mrs. Rosa asked me if I was selling my house and Itold her yes. So then she asked me who I was selling to. I said I was selling toone of the professors at Eastern. So she was very happy." He said, "The nextthing you knew she was out standing out there crying that I thought you had morerespect for my property to sell it to a black man." [Laughs]. So I startedlaughing and Mel said, "You don't mind?" I said, "No." I said, "She was on the28:00other side of the fence, wasn't she?" I said. He said, "Yeah." “So, she canstay over there and water her lawn all she wants to." I said, "But now, if shecome on this side of the fence on my property," I said, "It's going...Or anybody else,

INGRAM: Mm.

WELLS: it's going to be a different story." But he was surprised. He thought I

was going to be upset. But you know, when I moved, guess who the first person towelcome me? Mrs. Rosa. She had been the principal of the school on the campus,uh, the one that just closed for the, uh, handicapped. You remember the name ofthat school?

INGRAM: No, I don't.

WELLS: Well, we had a school, that's where the handicap...We ran the handicap

program for an intermediate school district and so forth, and trained teachersfor special ed.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: And she had been the principal of that school. Now, let's see if I...You

were asking about community leaders. I'm trying to think as I was talking.

WELLS: ...except for A-, except for Amos Washington and, uh, and John Burton.

John Burton was a strong one.

INGRAM: Okay. He-

WELLS: Understand he was the first one on the city council. He challenged [ ] on

the outside. [Laughs] Said he was, he was the only one up there, he going tofight all of us. But he learned over the years to be better and he became veryeffective. And of course, he's a, was a member with International Union, UAW,and on the international bargaining committees. Hot tempered!

INGRAM: What role did the black church play in the community, if any at all?

WELLS: Well, I think that, uh, at that time if the whites wanted to know what

the black community wanted they tended to go to the black church, to the blackministers. Uh, for example with S.L., judges would go to him.

INGRAM: Judges?

WELLS: Uh-huh. Like somebody, like a black person was before the court and so

30:00forth and they would ask S.L., "You know what kind of person he was and what hethought about?" And all this went into the decision. It was sort of a, uh,r-...The only thing is for many of the people in the black community, S.L. hadno idea how they thought. For example, I had some stuff in court and he gotinvolved in that, which was stupid. It was a divorce thing,

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: and he got involved [laughs] and you know, that was stupid. He didn't

know anything about, you know, my problems, my perception of my problems, how Igo deal with my problems, or anything. Well yet, he was up there.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Now, but, I mean, this is, this is the kind of role they played. And so

far as bringing about change I think their feeling was that it should be sort ofpatient, sort of the old fashioned thing. For example, uh, Reverend Robinson-31:00

INGRAM: First name?

WELLS: Uh, the one from Ann Arbor.

INGRAM: Hmm.

WELLS: Anthony-

INGRAM: Anthony Robinson.

WELLS: ...and I and another pastor was at a meeting of the Ministerial Arts. I

had been invited to talk to them about NAACP and they [ ] our colored brother inwar. And I told them, "You should know." They said, "That's what everybody say."I said, "Well, sure. You should know. You know what you want, don't you? If youknow what you want you know what I want."

INGRAM: Yeah, yeah.

WELLS: I said, "I want to participate in society and I want to help to exercise

the power they..." "Well, you know, you can't delegate power." I said, "Not likethat." Well, anyway, Anthony and I really got it going there and Anthony toldhim, said, "Another thing, we'd been better off if you people just stayed out ofour families” [laughs]. He, he got all mad with white m-, whites, you know,messing with black women and, and he said [laughs] people would give him a fit.32:00Well, again, Reverend Hopkins almost had a baby.

INGRAM: He, he almost had a what?

WELLS: He almost had a baby. He was so uncomfortable because Frank, because, uh,

Robinson and I were giving the white minister a hard way to go. My minister quittalking and just [laughs] sat there because he was white. And, uh, but in otherwords the churches trying to build an empire within the black community, and Ireally think that to a certain extent they were afraid that too much progressmight cause them to lose their, ministers to lose their power.

INGRAM: What about the black ministers today? Are they performing [ ]?

WELLS: You got the same ones [laughter]. There really isn't that much change.

INGRAM: That much change, eh?

WELLS: If they're doing anything I, I, I...Frankly, if they are doing anything I

don't know anything about it. I'll admit that I'm not associated with a black33:00church now, but if they were doing some, you know, doing anything real communityimprovement, it should leak over because members of the Emanon Club, members ofmy fraternity, are all members of those churches. And if something was going onreally productive to, I would know.

INGRAM: What could you suggest as some, uh, viable alternatives for, for

building kind of leadership that's needed in Ypsilanti? Do you have any ideas or suggestions?

WELLS: Well, I think the leadership in Ypsilanti today is far, far superior to

what it was during the time that we were talking about earlier.

INGRAM: How?

WELLS: Well, I think one of the people who have done a lot has been George Goodman.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Now, there are lots of people, blacks who don't like George. They say

that George is too white-oriented and so forth. Now, when George first became aleader in the black community, see, George found it difficult to sympathize withthe conditions of blacks in general.34:00

INGRAM: Why?

WELLS: Because he had been brought up behind a white picket fence. Uh, he was

not even permitted to play with the black kids in the community. He was keptbehind that fence and when he went to school he was not permitted to go to thepublic schools. All his schooling was at Roosevelt on campus. So that his folkshad, had shielded him, you know, had shield him from the realities of life.

INGRAM: Hmm.

WELLS: And, uh, he would tell, uh, he used to tell me, he'd say, "Well, I just,

you know ... " He said, "It's hard for me to understand it, but I'm trying." Andhe did. But now, when George, when he became mayor he was the only black in CityHall. I mean, not one black person was hired down there to do anything except,you know, clean the streets and things like that. Well, you see, he's changedall of that. He's responsible for all the change that has taken place downthere. Of course, we had paved the way for him in the NAACP. We had paved the35:00way for him. We've turned, we've turned city council out. We turned, you know,we turned everybody out down town. And, uh, but an interesting thing, uh, whenthey started building program in the black community like, uh, ReverendSullivan's program, you know the title?

INGRAM: OIC.

WELLS: OIC? You know, one of the people they didn't contact?

INGRAM: Who?

WELLS: Me. Now, I knew Sullivan back in Philadelphia when I-

INGRAM: Who ran OIC?

WELLS: Huh?

INGRAM: Who, who was over OIC here in Ypsilanti?

WELLS: Reverend Hopkins.

INGRAM: Hm.

WELLS: Now, you see, I knew Sullivan when he was getting started in

Philadelphia, 'cause I was working at Dr. Gray's church right down the streetfrom him. You know? [ ] Sullivan, one of my frat brothers, until they sentsomebody told him I knew Sullivan, and then he was busy, you know, trying to getsomebody [ ]

INGRAM: What was the purpose of the OIC in Ypsilanti anyway?

WELLS: Well, the same thing. Tried, you know, building black business training

programs and all of this happenstance, but it never got off the, it never got going.

INGRAM: Who was the leading, uh, black businessmen, you know, in this area when

WELLS: Uh, and then there is, I have several nephews who, uh, have small businesses.

INGRAM: Here?

WELLS: Uh-huh.

INGRAM: Hmm.

WELLS: Most of them are in the landscaping business.

INGRAM: Hmm.

WELLS: And like, Tom who own Miss G's Place, he also has a landscaping.

INGRAM: Hmm. That's very interesting.

WELLS: Mm-hmm. Let's see. Any other black entrepreneurs that I can think of?

There's got to be some more. A number of the black businesses went out of39:00business. You do have another...Someone has a store, some type of store thereon, uh, Adam, not Adams Street, uh, across from City Hall. There's a couple ofblack businesses right across from City Hall.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: I'm not sure how big they are, how much business they do.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: And of course, uh, the eating place. Oh, the guy who used to own it owns

this place here. Uh, also across from City Hall, remember that eating placeright across the street there on Michigan Avenue?

INGRAM: Yeah, I just-

WELLS: Haab’s.

INGRAM: Haab’s.

WELLS: Yeah.

INGRAM: That black chef owns that, or black and white chef owns

WELLS: That’s right. [They own it, they own the joint].

INGRAM: What's his name?

WELLS: I don't know. I've never met him.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: So we have those types of businesses and a couple, and a barbecue place.

INGRAM: The black community in Ypsilanti, what do you see as some, as many of

its problems? Does the black community of Ypsilanti have a problem? What are theproblems in the, in that community?

WELLS: Yes, it has a problem. One problem is that it's run down. It has a very

severe housing problem. At one time that, it was beginning to develop somepolitical clout, but they s-, the area has been so uprooted that, uh, much ofthe voting power that was in that area is now in [ ], out in Ypsi Township,because of urban renewal which broke up the, uh, the voting power-

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: ...on the south side. And some of the leadership that has died off has

not been replaced. For example, I mentioned, uh, Goodman.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Okay. Goodman is not on the south side there.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: And he doesn't have the same kind of influence there he would have if he

WELLS: I'm just saying that, uh, this is true. And, uh, many of the other black

leaders, of course, I was one of the first to move out of the south side. Um,Marguerite Eaglin moved out of the south side. Um, so now you have people likeHarris, Gene Beatty...Um, Gene Beatty is a very likable person, has had atremendous influence I think, [phone rings] but is not the one who is going toconfront issues, not issue-oriented.

INGRAM: What is he, then?

WELLS: Uh, a very friendly person, well-liked and less hot headed. Most of his

influence has been...He's been in education for a particularly long period oftime. Uh, his, uh, popularity goes back to the time when he, I believe won in 10relays, or at least represented Eastern in 10 relays back in the '30s.

WELLS: Well, you don't, you don't, uh, quite think of him as the man who ran the

hurdles. Do you?

INGRAM: Not at all.

WELLS: [Laughs]

INGRAM: Not at all.

WELLS: But he ran the hurdles and would have gone to the Olympics, but he

knocked over one of the hurdles in the Olympic tryout.

INGRAM: Oh. What are some of the other problems you'd say in the black

community, do you think?

WELLS: Well, I mentioned housing. Uh, education is another. You know, this is

one our problems everywhere we go, of course. So it's not peculiar to Ypsilanti,but education is one.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Uh, I think there's a certain amount of internal distension.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: ...where one leader seems to be afraid somebody else is going to out-lead

him. And, uh, and you know-

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: ...influence. I remember one time when someone said the only people who's

supposed to own big cars on the south side was, uh, only blacks supposed to have43:00a big car was Gene Beatty and Herb Francois. And, uh, what lady told me when Icame here, if you want to get along in black vis-, in black society you got toeither come by [ ].

INGRAM: Who was this, who told you that?

WELLS: Well, her name was Mrs. Francois, Herb Francois' mother. And I, you know,

I thought this was unusual because I've lived lots of places, I've worked lotsof places-

INGRAM: Who is Herb Francois?

WELLS: ...I've never heard anything like that.

INGRAM: Who is he?

WELLS: He's dead now. He was a realtor. He's, he was in real estate and he owned

a lot of the south side. And you know, and you had this type of attitude back then.

INGRAM: What about today? How do you see the black community today? Are, is the

black community today still confronted with the same problems of yesterday-

WELLS: Yeah.

INGRAM: ...or has it gotten better?

WELLS: I, I can't see how it got any better, really. I guess that in terms of

44:00jobs yes, they, blacks are into more jobs and more types of jobs and so forth.But then this was not-

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: You know, [laughs] this was something that was sort of unavoidable in,

uh, today's society. But, uh, I don't see any strong leadership from the peoplewho live on the black side with the exception of Doug Harris. Now, lots ofpeople don't like Doug because he can be a pain in the neck, but he has courage.He fights for what he believes and takes on almost anybody, and he try. You knowwhat I mean. He, at least he's out there trying. When he was on the school boardit was the same thing. He had been on the school board. He's now on the council.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: And to show that there's some change...[Laughs] At one time he couldn't

have got elected dog catcher, so the attitude of the people have changed some.They did elect him-

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: ...to council to represent the south side.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Um, I'm just trying to think. I can't see where there's all that much improvement.

INGRAM: Can you suggest alternatives to enhance community life among blacks in

Ypsi that would make the south side a much better community?

WELLS: Well, I think that in any area of this type an organized community in

which people work together cooperatively is the answer rather than fightingagainst each other.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Now that’s about the only alternative I can see. I don't know what can

be done about housing now. Now, particularly in the, you know, situation as itis today. Because if people don't have income and money there's not much theycan do about housing.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: And if our community has, uh, never developed a strong financial

base...You had some people there who had money, yeah,

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: but, uh, there was never any really joint effort to practically...I, we

started Interfaith Housing Corporation, uh, in which all of the churches were46:00supposed to participate. Uh, we had, uh, planned to build some low and moderateincome housing. Churches didn't participate.

INGRAM: Why not?

WELLS: I don't know. They wouldn't even send representatives to the meetings.

And actually, you know, [laughs] the people we were most interested in helpingwere the black community. They wouldn't participate. They wouldn't sendrepresentatives to the meeting. They wouldn't do anything. And I saw how it washappening is that if we did anything it's going to be all for whites in whitecommunities. And, uh, I, uh, went before the board in Ann Arbor and my ministerwho had started the whole thing hadn't even told them about us. And they weresupposed to be backing us, and we were supposed to be out here with theseministerial groups and so forth, the community groups backing. He hadn't eventold them about us. 'Cause I went over there and we had been in existence acouple of years. We had got our, you know, got our charter.47:00

INGRAM: Hmm.

WELLS: We had contacted the Michigan Housing Authority. We were ready to get

money and everything, and the people who were supposed to be sup- our supportgroups hadn't even heard of us.

INGRAM: Hmm.

WELLS: So the organization died, you know? Two of the key people, one of our

secretary who was a, really a key person because of his contacts throughout thestate, got killed in an accident.

INGRAM: Who was this?

WELLS: Uh, I forget what his name...He was the one who was the head of the

[Kidney] Foundation. That was several years ago. That was about '70. And thepresident who also was very strong within the Lutheran Church left and went toTexas, and the whole thing dropped on me and these p-, you know, those whitesweren't about to [laughs] you know...

INGRAM: Yeah.

WELLS: They weren't about to give me the kind of leadership I wanted and-

INGRAM: What do you see the future of the black community today as? Not getting

WELLS: Because, uh, I'm on the Board of Directors of the Boys Club, and in order

to get some blacks out of the south side, after we got Mickey Roberson to getsomeone who might actually function we went to the parents. And we hope we got awoman who will function. Because most of us on the Boys Club Board live outsideof the so called black community.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: In fact, about 80% of the boys who go to the club were black. So it's

being run, um, administered by a group outside of the area.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Uh, mostly white of course.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: But we did get Mickey Roberson on, and like we got Maude Forbes on there.

Maude teaches at Perry School. No, she doesn't. She did teach at Perry Schoolbut now Maude is the principal at Fletcher School, and they live right, live49:00over here on...Well, right down the street here. So they're not, they don't liveon the south side.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: So again, and I live here, so then again your leadership is outside of

the community trying to make a provision. Um, I don't see any strongorganization within the black community. The NAACP now has an egotist aspresident who is sure he knows everything and doesn't have time to be botheredtoo much of what other people have to say.

INGRAM: [Laughs] Who is this?

WELLS: Raymond Mullins.

INGRAM: Okay.

WELLS: Do you know him?

INGRAM: Uh, yeah. I went to school with Ray Mullins.

WELLS: And, well he's the president of NAACP now.

INGRAM: Oh, yeah?

WELLS: Before him it was Louise, Mary Louise Foley. And with all of her good

intentions sh- she gets...[laughs]. You know what I mean? This is the kind ofleadership in the NAACP you got. And if I say, the churches haven't changed any.Uh, Garther, well, is, well Garther may be well-meaning. S.L. is definitely50:00well-meaning, but I'm afraid they can't give the kind of leadership that thecommunity needs.

INGRAM: What do you think it needs?

WELLS: It needs someone who can get out and work with grass root people, get

them organized, get clubs organized, and so forth. And they got thisorganization over there now with Doug and other ones pushing like crazy. The guywho's running it is an assistant pastor of a church in Detroit, Cunningham.

INGRAM: Barry Cunningham?

WELLS: Barry Cunningham. And I know the board is very unhappy with him. They

don't see if he...They told him that he had to get out in the community, meetthe people, find out what their needs were, and then try to work and, uh, justbe getting him to, to get him to contact the ministers and stuff...Well, hecontacted one minister who was very popular, but, uh, he hasn't been around thatlong to know the roots of the problem and so forth.51:00

INGRAM: He lives up here now, I heard.

WELLS: [ ]. Well, they had to get, he had to get on pretty strongly. I

understand 'cause I'm not involved in that organization 'cause I don't live inthat area.

INGRAM: Yeah, yeah.

WELLS: If I did I'd be in there with

INGRAM: Yeah.

WELLS: the fellows. It's-

INGRAM: Yeah.

WELLS: ...a sort of a local organization.

INGRAM: How do you see, uh...Has Eastern gotten better today? If you were to

look at Eastern today has E-, has Eastern made dramatic improvements?

WELLS: Dramatic?

INGRAM: Yeah, in terms of-

WELLS: Not unless it did it in the-

INGRAM: ...enhancing its image with the black community.

WELLS: Not unless it did it in the last year. [Laughter] No, I'm serious. Uh

[laughs], you know, one of the things that they had, one of the reasons theygave for holding down on my promotion was the fact that they didn't feel I haddone enough research and so forth. So I had to remind...See, when I came herethe first thing Ken [ ] said to me was, "Philip, we have a very poor image inthe black community on the south side of the city. And I would like for you to52:00do what you can to improve that image." Now, how do you do this? Go over and sayto the people, "Look. We over at Eastern are nice," or do you go over there andgo to work? Now, there's only, you can only so much time. Right? So I went overthere and I went in the community and started working. I worked at the churches.I've worked with NAACP and the Business Professional League with the Emanon Cluband with the political aspect, without joining political party. I worked withpolitics [ ]. Now, I don't have time to do that, all my work at Eastern, and sitaround writing. And so people be- then began to feel better about Easternbecause I was the first, uh, person at Eastern who had ever bothered to go intothe black community. Now, the guy before me in sociology, I understand, had beenthere about four or five years. They didn't even know him. They thought he was agreat guy, but never came in contact with him. I got out there and startedworking with them and some of them didn't like me too well. I understand theywere afraid I was going to try and take over the social leadership of the south53:00side because I had a doctorate.

INGRAM: Mm.

WELLS: 'Cause I never found all the society they were talking about. I mean, I

don't know where it was.

INGRAM: Mm.

WELLS: You know, like I don't know where those students were they were talking

about at Eastern.

INGRAM: Yeah, yeah.

WELLS: But Eastern, yes it has improved for the simple reason you've got more

blacks there.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Now, the very fact that you have more blacks there is going to have an

influence on the attitude of the institution toward blacks.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Then I came out as the only one, and so blacks were coming to me,

students come to me with their problems.

INGRAM: One?

WELLS: Uh-huh.

INGRAM: Hmm.

WELLS: See, I was the first tenured black at Eastern. I was the first one to get

tenure, the first one to go beyond, uh, assistant professor, first one to gobeyond associate professor, and the first one to retire. I retired before my [ ].

INGRAM: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

WELLS: But, uh, so I guess I, I guess I did something toward opening up. I

INGRAM: Uh, but students were being accused of things in which they were not

guilty and they would come to me and the vice president would say, "Well, Phil,I'll take it over from here and I'll see that it's straightened out. I'd ratheryou get out of it," 'cause he was afraid I was going to turn the people againsthim, and I didn't give a damn. You know, he didn't understand that. But I didn'tcare how they reacted, you know?

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: If a black kid's in trouble and I can help him, I'm going to help him,

and if administration, board, anybody else didn't like it or not like it.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: Uh, but actually when...One of the reasons I told when I came here [ ] I

told him, I said, "Now, I don't know whether you're going to offer me a job ornot." I said, "You say [ ]," I said, "but the one thing you should understand,if you hire me, five years from now you're not going to tell me I don't have tenure."

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

WELLS: I said, "Because if you hire me and I resign my job and I come here, I

55:00will stay as long as I want to stay." And he said, "Okay." And I didn't want himto, you know, think he was hiring somebody he's going to kick out, see. So hesaid, "Okay." So it worked out. Uh-

INGRAM: Hm. Well, what I'd like to do, I'd like to thank you for taking this

time off and allowing me to conduct this interview. What we generally do isthis. I'm going to have this tape transcribed and typed out.

WELLS: Mm-hmm.

INGRAM: And you'll receive a copy in the mail which will allow you an

opportunity to reread the document, make deletions or additions accordingly, andI'll get back with you on that. Okay?

WELLS: Uh, I was born in Wilmington, North Carolina and I grew up out in the country in Sampson County.

Segment Synopsis: Dr. Wells briefly gives his personal background of growing up in rural North Carolina. He then details his education history before describing his initial thoughts and activities on arriving in Ypsilanti in 1959 as Eastern Michigan's first African-American professor.

Partial Transcript:WELLS: Oh, boy. That's a hard one to answer. I supposed that, uh, after Buchanan and Miller came we began to make some impact, but I think the real beginning for change probably didn't come until, well into, further into the '60s, uh, when the stu- we had the stu- black students sit in at Eastern. I called the black faculty what the ... It had increased then to where there were perhaps five faculty members and a number of people in other positions

Segment Synopsis: Dr. Wells recalls the history of Eastern Michigan University's first Black faculty members and discusses how they organized in response to student strikes in the 1960s.

Partial Transcript:INGRAM: Mm-hmm. Also, um, what have, have been, uh, over a long time period, some of your observations, uh, in regard to black leadership in Ypsilanti, say over, uh, since 1959 versus today in terms of progress? Could you provide me with the names of perhaps, uh, some of the black leaders or community leaders back then and what you saw them doing or what the community was into versus today?

WELLS: Well, I, I guess that when I came here the really strong community leader was John Burton, who was involved, of course, in the city government.

I

Segment Synopsis: In this section, Dr. Wells discusses his view of the leadership of the Black community when he arrived in the late 1950s. He talks about his own role in organizing the Emanon Club, a rival of the Business and Professional League, Dr. Wells also describes struggles on the Ypsilanti School Board over segregation in the 1960s.

Partial Transcript:WELLS: And, uh, of course on the campus...Going back to the campus again. The real problem in discrimination, except for salary and promotion, the real problem is students. Uh, when Eastern started growing, they grew so fast they could be very selective in terms of students they admitted. And at one time the grade requirements for admission to Eastern was higher than it was at the University of Michigan.

INGRAM: What year was this?

WELLS: Oh, this was, uh, mmm, I would say in the late '60s and, uh, on into the '70s.

Segment Synopsis: In this segment Dr. Wells looks at the situation facing Ypsilanti's public schools when he arrived and the issues facing students and the community as it made early steps to desegregate education.

Partial Transcript:INGRAM: What role did the black church play in the community, if any at all?

WELLS: Well, I think that, uh, at that time if the whites wanted to know what the black community wanted they tended to go to the black church, to the black ministers. Uh, for example with S.L., judges would go to him.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Wells talks about some of the divisions in the Black community in confronting issues of racial inequality in the city. He gives his assessment of various business, religious, and political leaders. Mr. Wells talks about the his own story of moving from the south side.

Partial Transcript:INGRAM: What about today? How do you see the black community today? Are, is the black community today still confronted with the same problems of yesterday-

WELLS: Yeah.

INGRAM: ...or has it gotten better?

WELLS: I, I can't see how it got any better, really. I guess that in terms of jobs yes, they, blacks are into more jobs and more types of jobs and so forth. But then this was not-

Segment Synopsis: Dr. Wells looks at the present situation in Ypsilanti and on the campus of Eastern Michigan University after decades of attempts at desegregation. He talks about what he perceives as a lack of leadership in the city's Black community. Finally he addresses his own role in breaking down barriers as a pioneering Black EMU faculty member.

The interviews, transcripts, indexes, and photographs contained herein may not be reproduced or altered without the permission of the Ypsilanti District Library and the Ypsilanti Historical Society. Short excerpts may be used for the purposes of promoting the archive or the project, or in scholarly work with appropriate references.