Happy with current location, local law enforcement and BLM? [OK, the durn poll feature is not working right now. But I'd rather see a discussion than a poll.] Pyramid Lake Paiute land or Esmeralda County have been suggested as possible locations. Know of any others? Pros and cons?

I have not actually been to the current location, but I seem to recall that at least some people felt that Pyramid Lake would be even more restrictive. I don't know anything about Esmeralda County. I jokingly suggested Antarctica on the "Dear Larry" thread, because it seemed to me to be a place which would test survival skills even more with even less restrictions....

More seriously, I seem to remember reading about a town in Texas near the Mexico border in an old copy of the Utne Reader which might work. I can't for the life of me recall the name of the town or where I put that magazine, unfortunately. I think that the county was, at least at that time, the poorest in Texas, if that helps any. The town was supposed to be some sort of artistic community, and I think that the towns water bill was being paid by someone who wanted to see the town florish as some kind of alternative community. (On the other hand, my brain might be mixing together memories of different places I have heard about over the years.)

Anyway, that is all I can think to add at this time.

Oh, and I don't really see a reason to move the event at this time, unless something comes about and forces it to move.

"Nothing is withheld from us which we have conceived to do.Do things that have never been done."--Russell Kirsch

Oh, and I don't really see a reason to move the event at this time, unless something comes about and forces it to move.

Depends on how you feel about cops ticketing people for indecency (peeing on the playa), taking down people's artwork because they think it's obscene and there are kids at the event, searching people's camp for drugs, etc.

Oh, and I don't really see a reason to move the event at this time, unless something comes about and forces it to move.

Depends on how you feel about cops ticketing people for indecency (peeing on the playa), taking down people's artwork because they think it's obscene and there are kids at the event, searching people's camp for drugs, etc.

As another person on Eplaya would say "Cites?"

Seriously, hooray for ticketing people for peeing on the playa! That is so gross. I am not fond of the portapotty situation, but the stories I've heard about people peeing and pooping on the playa gross me out.

As to tearing down artwork... I'm sure there are 2 sides to that story. I'd have to hear them both to form an opinion.

And searching people's camps for drugs... as we are constantly reminded, the event is held on federal land. All participants are subject to all the normal laws that apply anywhere. Security all across the country has gotten tighter, privacy is disappearing. Be as smart about drugs as you would be at home, or more accurately as if you were in a college dorm or in a state or federal camping ground. Not saying the enforcers are always right, and not saying I agree with the laws to begin with, but I have gotten used to being very, very paranoid about things. I'm not prepared to face the consequences of getting caught so paranoia is my only option.

Seriously, hooray for ticketing people for peeing on the playa! That is so gross. I am not fond of the portapotty situation, but the stories I've heard about people peeing and pooping on the playa gross me out.

"A wayward fellow was fined for "indecent exposure" after allegedly peeing on the ground, an activity that may be inelegant, but perhaps understandable when the nearest portable toilet is a full mile away. One festival newspaper wondered, in all seriousness, why anyone should be fined for such an offense when a sizable portion of participants wander around nude." [excerpt from http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,38587,00.html]

This was before there was any sort of suggestion about gray water and peeing. Alot of Burners do wilderness camping and it's just the ground and a shovel. This only got to be an issue recently due the size explosion of BM. This guy had no way of knowing that he could be cited for indecent exposure as people run around naked.

As to tearing down artwork... I'm sure there are 2 sides to that story. I'd have to hear them both to form an opinion.

[url]And searching people's camps for drugs... as we are constantly reminded, the event is held on federal land. All participants are subject to all the normal laws that apply anywhere. Security all across the country has gotten tighter, privacy is disappearing.[/url]

It's just downright sad when privacy disappears at BM. If the event were held on private property, many of these issues would become non-issues. If BM were to be held on Tribal land, would it be subject to local law enforcement at all?

Yeah! Move it to BC! We're casual about pretty much every thing here- drugs, jiffy lube, art, being freaky, whatever. We have lots of woods, and it gets cold at night, so that would be some good survival for you. See if you can survive a week in the woods without getting eaten by a bear! Now we're talking! And the winter- the ideal time if you want to get really in to talking care of yourself. Hydration is nothing, that's easy, how about keep warm or die. We could be near a beautiful river...on a big farm...oh wait that's Shambhala! Okay, leave it in the desert. I need some variety.

If we were on tribal land, we would (at least) be subject to tribal law enforcement.

And as anyone who's been pulled over for stopping in tribal land without a permit on the way up can tell you, that's not neccesarily a good thing.

It compeltely depends on the understanding you acheive with the tribe. Maybe there's a tribe that would be very supporting and look the other way, but some tribes are very conservative, and some tribes in the area of burning man are not only very conservative, but may well see a whole bunch of burners as an excuse to harass whitey. I've heard a story of one person who was extorted out of his video camera for swimming in pyramid lake without a permit. No, I can't verify it, but you won't catch me stopping for a dip!

Drugs are illegal. Just because you're at Burning Man doesn't make it OK.
And a whole hell of a lot of art that wouldn't fly in mainstream America is all over Burning Man. Percentage-wise, very little has been disallowed.
And there's potties all over, clean ones nowadays. You really want everyone to just pee everywhere at BM?

It seems like you're really searching for something to bitch about. The local law enforcement is very lenient about a lot of stuff... they don't have to let us do a lot of the things they allow us out there. Public nudity, for instance, IS ILLEGAL in Nevada, and if they wanted to, they could arrest every one out there who isn't dressed "decently". Most of the cops who work Burning Man wanted the assignment because they enjoy Burning Man, and have to "win" the opportunity to get the duty. Most are pretty cool, and believe me, they do look the other way for a lot of stuff that technically is punishable. I think you'd find the Indians more conservative in their views about the stuff we want to do out there.

You're bitching because you can't do illegal drugs and pee all over the place, and one or two art pieces out of shitloads got pulled.

Take a good look, I think it's better than you think it is.

GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."Delle: Singularly we may be dysfunctional misfits, but together we're magic.

Hotspur wrote:If we were on tribal land, we would (at least) be subject to tribal law enforcement.

And as anyone who's been pulled over for stopping in tribal land without a permit on the way up can tell you, that's not neccesarily a good thing.

It compeltely depends on the understanding you acheive with the tribe. Maybe there's a tribe that would be very supporting and look the other way, but some tribes are very conservative, and some tribes in the area of burning man are not only very conservative, but may well see a whole bunch of burners as an excuse to harass whitey. I've heard a story of one person who was extorted out of his video camera for swimming in pyramid lake without a permit. No, I can't verify it, but you won't catch me stopping for a dip!

Agreed that being on tribal land without a permit could be a bitch. Another thing if you've found a tribe that is OK with Burning Man and is getting paid for us to lease the land. Some tribes have different feelings about using "drugs" as some use peyote and mushrooms and have received shit from the US government for following their own traditions. Allowing drug use might be their way of sticking it to "whitey."

Captain Goddammit wrote:Drugs are illegal. Just because you're at Burning Man doesn't make it OK. And a whole hell of a lot of art that wouldn't fly in mainstream America is all over Burning Man. Percentage-wise, very little has been disallowed.And there's potties all over, clean ones nowadays. You really want everyone to just pee everywhere at BM?

It seems like you're really searching for something to bitch about. The local law enforcement is very lenient about a lot of stuff... they don't have to let us do a lot of the things they allow us out there. Public nudity, for instance, IS ILLEGAL in Nevada, and if they wanted to, they could arrest every one out there who isn't dressed "decently". Most of the cops who work Burning Man wanted the assignment because they enjoy Burning Man, and have to "win" the opportunity to get the duty. Most are pretty cool, and believe me, they do look the other way for a lot of stuff that technically is punishable. I think you'd find the Indians more conservative in their views about the stuff we want to do out there.

You're bitching because you can't do illegal drugs and pee all over the place, and one or two art pieces out of shitloads got pulled.

Drugs are illegal. Just because you're at Burning Man doesn't make it OK.

Just because there are laws against them doesn't make them all bad. I *rarely* use any, but I'd like to think that I could make the decision, as an adult, for myself. I also don't like the idea of cops searching entire camps at Burning Man. Burning Man has always been about being radical. Only as it has gotten so populated has law enforcement at the site become a necessity, or at least something to deal with.

And a whole hell of a lot of art that wouldn't fly in mainstream America is all over Burning Man. Percentage-wise, very little has been disallowed.And there's potties all over, clean ones nowadays. You really want everyone to just pee everywhere at BM?

The man was not ticketed for "peeing on the playa," he was ticketed for indecent exposure. It seems a bit arbitrary to do this in an event where a significant number of participants go nude, or partially nude. Now that there are strict guidelines about peeing on the playa, I think people are now aware that it can get you in trouble. It is helpful to go back to the mindset and culture of BM at the time the ticket was issued. Context is very relevant here.

It seems like you're really searching for something to bitch about. The local law enforcement is very lenient about a lot of stuff... they don't have to let us do a lot of the things they allow us out there. Public nudity, for instance, IS ILLEGAL in Nevada, and if they wanted to, they could arrest every one out there who isn't dressed "decently".

Nudity is not illegal in a lot of places. There are nude beaches in California, for instance. Also, on private land, there are nudist camps. Having spent the last 14 years in California, I am completely comfortable with nudity and find Nevada, and much of America, very prudish. With the direction the event is heading, I don't think it is unreasonable that someday local law enforcement will start sighting more art and people's attire as obscene.

Most of the cops who work Burning Man wanted the assignment because they enjoy Burning Man, and have to "win" the opportunity to get the duty. Most are pretty cool, and believe me, they do look the other way for a lot of stuff that technically is punishable. I think you'd find the Indians more conservative in their views about the stuff we want to do out there.

Really, how many Native Americans do you know personally to make that claim? Or perhaps some cites might be useful. I hate to lump so many different nations under the umbrella of Native American, but many tribes, before the white man tried to modernize them, wore not much more than loin clothes when it was hot. Various tribes used various substances, such as peyote, mushrooms and herbs that were later declared illegal by our colonalist government.

You're bitching because you can't do illegal drugs and pee all over the place, and one or two art pieces out of shitloads got pulled.Take a good look, I think it's better than you think it is.

So raising a discussion is bitching? As in GWB claiming that people who don't go along with the war effort are traitors? I think I recall from civics classes that Democracy is about the debate of ideas.

As for censorship of art, I take that very seriously. It may start with something you don't care to defend but the snowballs over time. Eventually it may affect something that you care deeply about. I, for one, don't care for this post 9/11 philosophy that we must give up civil liberties for the sake of safety and wellbeing. If we don't put up a fight against the erosion of freedom of expression, those in power will most likely keep taking more.

Is it better than I think it is? I know for a fact, how Burning Man can be. I've been to previous Burns when it was freer. I've heard detailed accounts of even earlier Burns that were freer than what I've experienced. If we don't fight the good fight, we get what is essentially something not very different than our day to day lives in controlled environments.

I don't see how private land would change anything - laws are still laws, just because you are on private land does not mean you can ignore them.

Then there is the "rave act", what private landowner would consider hosting burningman, a festival where it is reasonable to assume (based on past arrests) that some illegal drug use will occur? I am not sure if this can be applied to tribal lands due to treaties, but any non-tribal land owner would certainly think twice before using their land.

And I hardly think tribes would be convinced to host such an event for the $500k or so that the BLM charges. If they did, as previously mentioned, they would almost certainly be harsher than now.

The only real option I see for those of you who want to ignore the laws of this country would be to lease an old oil tanker or liner and hold the event 10 miles or so off shore (international waters). But then, fires on ships is never a good idea.

Just out of curiosity my ass, you're looking for a way to discredit me, so you can say I don't know how it used to be. But it was the 2000 burn, to answer the question. No, I wasn't there in the early days.

It's too damn bad you don't like the fact that the cops do their job and bust people for breaking the laws about illegal drugs, the playa IS NOT an immune territory.

I know they used the public indecency law to ticket the guy for peeing in public. And it did apply. They chose to ticket him because he was particularly offensive, and they could ticket every one that goes naked, but they're cool enough not to. Nudity is legal in a lot of places, sure, but the playa isn't necessarily one of them.

If you're that jacked up about censorship of art, Burning Man seems the most unlikely place to focus your efforts. Like I said, BM has art everywhere that wouldn't be allowed most other places. BM, and the law enforcement agencies present, are coming as close to giving you what you want as possible within the law... to the point of allowing laws to be broken without consequence in many cases.

I'm just stirred up because you seem to be bitching about not being granted diplomatic immunity while at Burning Man. That's not realistic.

GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."Delle: Singularly we may be dysfunctional misfits, but together we're magic.

Just out of curiosity my ass, you're looking for a way to discredit me, so you can say I don't know how it used to be. But it was the 2000 burn, to answer the question. No, I wasn't there in the early days.

You seem awfully defensive. The years that you've been to Burning Man make a huge difference. It would be impossible to compare now and then unless you've been or you hear regularly, over and over, multiple accounts of what took place way back in the beginning. Perhaps I am becoming the next generation of crochety old burners. But unlike the older ones, I'm not saying, hey get off my lawn. I'm just saying, I wonder if there is a way to regain some of the features of the event that allowed for diverse expression. Some of the old timers don't come back any more but go to regional events. I may be headed that way, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet.

If you're that jacked up about censorship of art, Burning Man seems the most unlikely place to focus your efforts. Like I said, BM has art everywhere that wouldn't be allowed most other places. BM, and the law enforcement agencies present, are coming as close to giving you what you want as possible within the law... to the point of allowing laws to be broken without consequence in many cases.

I never claimed to be jacked up, just concerned. You're the only one here using impolite language (ass, bitch, etc.). I object to censorship anywhere, but at Burning Man especially. If a place that I have come to know as the last bastion of free expression, is now subject to arbitrary censorhip, then yes, I raise an ebrow and wonder what is happening next.

I'm just stirred up because you seem to be bitching about not being granted diplomatic immunity while at Burning Man. That's not realistic.

I still don't see how expressing my opinion is bitching. Who's to say what is realistic as far as changes in policies and laws? Some of our laws are pretty arbitrary and should be changed. Cigarettes are legal and marijuana is not. Cigarettes cause far more ill health effects. Marijuana has been proven to help with glaucoma and help chemo patients with nausea. Alcohol is legal but certain mushrooms are not. Alcohol can be abused and causes many health problems if abused. And during prohibition alcohol was illegal but people drank it anyway. Bad laws or outdated laws do change. "Colored" and "white" people can now share the same bathroom. I am thankful for those people who praticed civil disobedience and changed that.

BTW, this is not idle complaining. I am working towards change every day of my life. I chose to quit a lucrative career to go back to grad school to do work that would change the lives of people living in poverty. I had worked very hard for three years at a very well known theme camp. I work seven 6 hour shifts in the hot sun for BM. I have participated in organized performances at BM. I am concerned about censorship of art at BM, so I submitted an article to Piss Clear about some important issues to consider. I wanted to post this thread to get feedback on one of three directions I saw for the future of the event. So here my motives lie.

Captain Goddammit wrote:You're bitching because you can't do illegal drugs and pee all over the place, and one or two art pieces out of shitloads got pulled.

Take a good look, I think it's better than you think it is.

I agree that it IS better out there than in other places, but every year the outside world creeps in a little more and those little things that made the event special evaporate.

As for peeing on the playa, I've learned to walk around the dark patches of ground on burn night. Other than that, it hasnt really been a problem. I'm not too crazy with someone taking a shit underneath my truck, but urine is pretty harmless and I defy someone to show me evidence that it harms the playa in any way.

You're sitting on a silt bed almost 10,000 feet deep. Do you really think that 4 ounces of piss is going to do anything? If anything, the acid in the urine may counteract the alkali in the playa. Think of it as doing your part to pH balance the world one small patch at a time.

Long gone are the days of the drive-by shooting range and the Gigsville pissing contest.

(sigh) good times.

"Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is primal union." - Lao Tsu

As for peeing on the playa, I've learned to walk around the dark patches of ground on burn night. Other than that, it hasnt really been a problem. I'm not too crazy with someone taking a shit underneath my truck, but urine is pretty harmless and I defy someone to show me evidence that it harms the playa in any way.

You're sitting on a silt bed almost 10,000 feet deep. Do you really think that 4 ounces of piss is going to do anything? If anything, the acid in the urine may counteract the alkali in the playa. Think of it as doing your part to pH balance the world one small patch at a time.

TheJudge wrote:As for peeing on the playa, I've learned to walk around the dark patches of ground on burn night.

Never wear open-toed footwear at night on the playa.

Also, a trucker once advised me to never pick up a sock by the side of the road.

Buckethead, Buckethead you are like an Alien
Buckethead, Buckethead your head is like a dish
Buckethead, Buckethead sometimes you wear the Maybelline
Buckethead, Buckethead sometimes you're full of fish

I'm confused about the whole peeing on the playa thing. Alot of people complain about it, but in 2002, we were told by greeters, "Save the potties! Pee on the playa!" And I heard that message throughout the event that year. So I obliged.

Das Bus wrote:I'm confused about the whole peeing on the playa thing. Alot of people complain about it, but in 2002, we were told by greeters, "Save the potties! Pee on the playa!" And I heard that message throughout the event that year. So I obliged.

I dont remember hearing that message, but it seems like it may be more of a joke.

"Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is primal union." - Lao Tsu

You're right on about the law enforcement. Every year it gets more insane. The people constantly driving back and forth, up and down the roads all day and all night hour after hour are a wide variety of law-enforcement, fire vehicles, and people who claim to represent all kinds of state agencies from every county in Nevada plus the feds and god knows what other agencies. Its become a joke. It would be interesting to have the Burning Man Statistics Camp publish a list of all the bureaucrats the BM organizers let in. I am quite sure the BM organizers don't want us to know all the organization they let drive around now days. The modern "art car" has become a Washoe County SUV. But that's progress I guess. And these guys and gals in their air-conditioned vehicles we pay for with our taxes are, for the most part, the typical un-cool yahoos looking to waste some time or to bust some ass. My first year was 1994 and the most amazing fact about the event was the concept of no rules. There were no streets and you just camped wherever you stopped your car or truck. BM has evolved into something much different. So if you want something different you will need to start your own thing. The BM crew is locked into this deal with the devil. Sign me up for the first event you hold at a secret location. New is good.

Dave wrote:You're right on about the law enforcement. Every year it gets more insane. The people constantly driving back and forth, up and down the roads all day and all night hour after hour are a wide variety of law-enforcement, fire vehicles, and people who claim to represent all kinds of state agencies from every county in Nevada plus the feds and god knows what other agencies. Its become a joke. It would be interesting to have the Burning Man Statistics Camp publish a list of all the bureaucrats the BM organizers let in. I am quite sure the BM organizers don't want us to know all the organization they let drive around now days. The modern "art car" has become a Washoe County SUV. But that's progress I guess. And these guys and gals in their air-conditioned vehicles we pay for with our taxes are, for the most part, the typical un-cool yahoos looking to waste some time or to bust some ass. My first year was 1994 and the most amazing fact about the event was the concept of no rules. There were no streets and you just camped wherever you stopped your car or truck. BM has evolved into something much different. So if you want something different you will need to start your own thing. The BM crew is locked into this deal with the devil. Sign me up for the first event you hold at a secret location. New is good.

You forgot to mention "overtime pay" as a prime motivator for LEO to work the event.

Dave wrote:My first year was 1994 and the most amazing fact about the event was the concept of no rules. There were no streets and you just camped wherever you stopped your car or truck. BM has evolved into something much different. So if you want something different you will need to start your own thing. The BM crew is locked into this deal with the devil. Sign me up for the first event you hold at a secret location. New is good.

With an event this size rules and crowd control become an almost necessity. If we are making a deal with the devil, have we made the best deal that we can for part of our soul?

Or is it time to jump ship in favor of regionals? We've had some issues with BLM on unpermitted camping trips. Though I hear the ones on private land seemed to avoid any law enforcement harrassment.

As I understand it, the amount of law enforcement personnel has decreased in recent years, not increased.

And also as I understand it, a fair amount of credit for that goes to our Black Rock Rangers for handling most of the event's issues internally.

I guess some of you are coming from a stance of trying to make a great thing even better, and that's cool. I'm trying to point out that we really have it pretty good, in many cases better than is legal. An event this size will have to have rules and co-operation with the law, and you might get even more freedom of speech and art, but things like freedom of illegal drug use just aren't gonna happen, and I think it's silly to bemoan the cops for doing their job.

GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."Delle: Singularly we may be dysfunctional misfits, but together we're magic.

I think law enforcement presence and how obnoxious they are vreies year to year, depending on the political winds. This year, it sounds like the wind blows ill.

Seriously Stormy, I really don't think moving would help anything. The problems you describe are a result of the growing size of the event along with the current political climate. Private property would be a REAL bad idea - the feds can use the fucking "rave act" or any one of a bunch of crazy other laws created in the name of the drug war to completely screw the owner of any property if a drug violation occurs there - and in any group of 35,000+ partiers, there are going to be lawbreakers, eh? And most Indian tribes aren't going to be any more happy aboput thousands of Anglo freaks descending on their land than the residents of Gerlach and Empire are - if not less.

At least the Gerlach area has had time to get used to us. How do you trhink it would work out if next year 35,000 Burners descend on some small town in the middle of nowhere that had never heard the term "radical inclusion"...

The event is above the radar now. The only way to change things is try to find a similar experience at a much smaller event, or change society. Or, I hate to say it, make it an adults-only event - the local sherriffs get a lot of play out "protecting the children".

"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes