On 4/05/2006 BoaredOfTheRings wrote:>Maybe you should learn how to put runners in. Cheaper, faster and you>might even find it fun. Less of a mess aswell when people chop your retro-bolts.

But you guys enjoy chopping bolts so much! I need to give you some form of smug satitufaction. If it
wasn't for me you guys would have nothing to do! Im value adding to your climbing experiance. Where
else can mix ropes and hacksaws?

On 3/05/2006 BoaredOfTheRings wrote:>>I tend to take responsibility for my own safety, how about you?

Absolutely. That's why I assess the bolts before using them.

By chopping bolts the choppers are making a safety decision for all those that follow.

And I am only referring to bolts for belays or abseiling here. Retro bolting routes is a whole different issue.

There are many abseil bolts that were not there 20+ years ago which make descending safer. Many of the trees we used to abseil off no longer exist. Not to mention some of the down climbs we used to do. So yes it is a safety issue.

>>By chopping bolts the choppers are making a safety decision for all those>that follow. >
The lower offs and rap stations that have been and are in the process of being chopped were placed for convenience not safety (not there for erosion control either).>>There are many abseil bolts that were not there 20+ years ago which make>descending safer. Many of the trees we used to abseil off no longer exist.> Not to mention some of the down climbs we used to do. So yes it is a safety>issue.

There's a little cliff that houses routes such as "The Stoat Steps out" and some other smallish (8m long) stuff. I seem to recall noting that the scramble down from those alarmed quite a few people. Does anyone know if this is still the standard means of descent, or if there is an alternative? I think "Moby Dick" has the same descent.

On 4/05/2006 BoaredOfTheRings wrote:>On 4/05/2006 Chalk Free wrote:>>>>>By chopping bolts the choppers are making a safety decision for all those>>that follow. >>>The lower offs and rap stations that have been and are in the process>of being chopped were placed for convenience not safety (not there for>erosion control either).

Your opinion, not mine

>>>>There are many abseil bolts that were not there 20+ years ago which make>>descending safer. Many of the trees we used to abseil off no longer exist.>> Not to mention some of the down climbs we used to do. So yes it is a>safety>>issue.>>I can't think of one example of this at the Piles?

Forgive me but wouldn't it make sense
to have rap stn bolts wherever possible to me this does help make the descent safer, saves people using natural features which will only be eroded in time changing the nature of the rock faster than nature intended. I also believe it would save a lot of time and enable climbers to do more climbing and reduce the number of "epics" that seem to occur largely when trying to get down...........................

The issue is about how to determine where there should be rap stations, and where not. You say they should be 'whereever possible'. If that were taken literally, all belays should be bolted, every route should have anchors at the top, some should have them part way up to allow people to bail, and there should be some random ones in the middle of blank walls as it is 'possible' to have one there. I'm sure that this isn't what you mean, so, the question is how to decide where to have them. There's a multitute of factors involved here, not limited to: safety, erosion control, not wanting to drill holes in the rock unnecessarily, scarring from old bolts, usage levels, convenience, the style of the nearby routes ... And you can weight those factors as you see fit.

Bored seems to think that 'less is more' (I must say I have some sympathy for that position), others differ, but this isn't (and can't be) a debate about absolutes.

On 4/05/2006 Ronny wrote:>Careful there BS, you're drifting into Bored's firing line...>>. I'm sure that this isn't what you mean,

correct - I wouldn't advocate that or Boared and Co might have me galvanised. And rightly so!

There's a multitute>of factors involved here, not limited to: safety, erosion control, not>wanting to drill holes in the rock unnecessarily, scarring from old bolts,>usage levels, convenience, the style of the nearby routes ... And you>can weight those factors as you see fit.

Agreed. I may be wrong but I feel that having a minimalist ( 2 ring bolts or one large ring as an example) rap staion only at the top of a major conglomeration of Routes. Just as an example (pretenting you can't walk off) at one end or in the middle of the plaque wall have a rap stn which services a number of routes all ending near that point. I guess I think of it a bit like ski lifts you don't have one for every run but rather one that may service a whole area such as Heavenly Valley at Mt. Hotham. It's a better environmental outcome than having 1 lift per 1 or 2 runs which parallels with my view that if people are descanding climbs all over the place would this not have a broader environmental impact than having people all use the same area to perform the descent where only one area of the rock may be adversely affected..................

Certainly it would be wrong to do this on a route where the descent or scramble down is
a) decidedly easy
b) or considered as part of the climb or a feature of it eg " once you've made it to the top of this route you will really enjoy the exciting down climb" or you haven't really climbed X until you've peformed the intriguing exit moves"

Cetainly don't bolt like a madman but where, logical, efficient and safety factors make it seem like a good idea then it may be a case to increase the number of bolted rap stns at the top of certain routes or converging numerous routes>
I must say I';ve had may thoughts and re-thoughts about the whole bolting issue, it's a vexed question and these thoughts are only an opinion. I wouldn't be surprised after talking to others and my own climbing improving my views may change again. That's the joy of discussion/debate..............>