...and?
That graph is only applicable to Destruction. And why should KJC provide nothing in circumstances when it can't provide a thing? No other class talent does that. Even Druids HoW provides a flat 6% stat.

It's not only applicable to Destruction; even as Demo with it's better mobility, you can still benefit from it since ToCs for movement are still sub-optimal Fury spend - especially at lower gear levels where Fury is less readily available. I think you're massively overestimating the value of one, single Dark Soul, especially on longer fights toward the end of an instance. And I think we've all experienced the RNG of waiting for that perfect storm of procs to use it on, that never ultimately occured, and just leaving it until the execute.

I agree, perhaps KJC shouldn't have that 0 benefit, but right now MF is mostly that for all specs anyway.

MF/AD outweighs KJC for demo by a huge margin. Without fel flame it's another story, but still the small amount of Fury gained from casting a minuscule amount of Shadow Bolts over the course of a fight is nothing compared to lining up a second Dark Soul with a strong trinket proc or having MF for bursting down a set of adds.

MF/AD outweighs KJC for demo by a huge margin. Without fel flame it's another story, but still the small amount of Fury gained from casting a minuscule amount of Shadow Bolts over the course of a fight is nothing compared to lining up a second Dark Soul with a strong trinket proc or having MF for bursting down a set of adds.

It is not only one extra Dark Soul, it also ensures that every Dark Soul you put out is paired with a strong trinket proc (+ resource-boost).

For KJC and DS /w proc timing,
simulation smooths that out in the amount of simulation it does and gives you the average from multiple examples of proc RNG.

It doesn't tell you how different having only one DS out of X with KJC synced with a major proc (other than pull, should you be that unfortunate), than having every single DS synced with a major proc (which is what AD does + other benefits) is.

The amount of lost fillers (- Fel flame and other benefits) you need minimum doesn't add up compared to the extra damage from having all your Dark Souls optimal with how strong procs are.
You can be really lucky with KJC and DS+proc sync at best, but that is not most likely going to happen. In that case you can also be really lucky with no 'unfortunate' movement with AD.

Isn't everyone using PBoI pretty much? It is standard to sync your ds with that. Only on long fights will they desync since pboi has a 115s icd, and then only when it repeatedly procs very soon after the icd. Even then it's not a huge problem for affl. Worst for demo. So even if you take kjc, you can always line it up with a trinket proc.

If next tier, we end up not using an icd trinket with 2min icd, then it could become more of an issue. However, in order to not waste AD charge time, you'd have to use the extra charge within the first 2 minutes. If you need to save it for a dps check later in the fight, then you'd still use it without a trinket proc.

Isn't everyone using PBoI pretty much? It is standard to sync your ds with that. Only on long fights will they desync since pboi has a 115s icd, and then only when it repeatedly procs very soon after the icd. Even then it's not a huge problem for affl. Worst for demo. So even if you take kjc, you can always line it up with a trinket proc.

If next tier, we end up not using an icd trinket with 2min icd, then it could become more of an issue. However, in order to not waste AD charge time, you'd have to use the extra charge within the first 2 minutes. If you need to save it for a dps check later in the fight, then you'd still use it without a trinket proc.

I think it's more about your RPPM trinket which can be synced with another Dark Soul, outside of the normal DS+Bindings cycle. You also don't need to use the 2nd charge within the first two minutes, although I'm not sure whether you were referring to a situation where you don't have the 2 minute ICD trinket.

I think it's more about your RPPM trinket which can be synced with another Dark Soul, outside of the normal DS+Bindings cycle. You also don't need to use the 2nd charge within the first two minutes, although I'm not sure whether you were referring to a situation where you don't have the 2 minute ICD trinket.

Nighthaven was arguing that with kjc you inevitably are forced to use ds without a trinket proc eventually. Assuming that he meant you always use ds on cooldown. My response was just that with bindings, using kjc that's not an issue. You may have to hold ds for a few seconds, but generally if you track the icd, you can line it up.

What I meant by using the extra charge in the first two mins was that AD gives flexibility to when you use your ds and you can hold it. As long as the second charge is charging, there's not a risk of losing a Ds use over the course of a fight. However, if you don't use that second charge within the first two minutes, you still run the risk of losing a use. It's feasible that next tier we could not have a trinket proc after the pull for 2 mins. In which case, we might run into this problem. Also if there's a particular phase of a fight that is a dps check, then we are forced to hold that charge and would either sit at 2 stacks waiting for a trinket proc or use it without a proc in order to get an extra use at the end.

Right now bc of bindings, it wouldn't really happen unless the 2nd proc is really late. But at this point, it's not progression so it doesn't matter much and everyone's done the fights enough that they know when they like using their ds charges anyway.

It is not only one extra Dark Soul, it also ensures that every Dark Soul you put out is paired with a strong trinket proc (+ resource-boost).

For KJC and DS /w proc timing,
simulation smooths that out in the amount of simulation it does and gives you the average from multiple examples of proc RNG.

It doesn't tell you how different having only one DS out of X with KJC synced with a major proc (other than pull, should you be that unfortunate), than having every single DS synced with a major proc (which is what AD does + other benefits) is.

The amount of lost fillers (- Fel flame and other benefits) you need minimum doesn't add up compared to the extra damage from having all your Dark Souls optimal with how strong procs are.
You can be really lucky with KJC and DS+proc sync at best, but that is not most likely going to happen. In that case you can also be really lucky with no 'unfortunate' movement with AD.

It does, but you're talking about a world with snapshotting to grab those 10 stacks, which again means luck with trinkets, and it smooths out precisely because you're not always that lucky. So it's good when it's good, but it's not always that good. And, in WoD, without snapshotting, you won't be able to exploit that anyway.

It does, but you're talking about a world with snapshotting to grab those 10 stacks, which again means luck with trinkets, and it smooths out precisely because you're not always that lucky. So it's good when it's good, but it's not always that good. And, in WoD, without snapshotting, you won't be able to exploit that anyway.

And how does this not apply to WoD?
You are still subject to RNG DS+proc sync after pull with RPPM trinkets.
(as for bindings, that's one trinket)

You will obviously have less benefit of snapshotting with DoT classes, as they won't benefit from DS duration of 20s+DoT duration total, but it still applies for cooldown /w proc stacking.

And how does this not apply to WoD?
You are still subject to RNG DS+proc sync after pull with RPPM trinkets.
(as for bindings, that's one trinket)

You will obviously have less benefit of snapshotting with DoT classes, as they won't benefit from DS duration of 20s+DoT duration total, but it still applies for cooldown /w proc stacking.

Which still requires RNG, which smoothed out over time is still something like 2%, which without Fel Flame still leaves movement more punitive, and still reduces over longer duration fights. You're not even disagreeing here, just saying it's good with an optimistic stance.