From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 1 11:20:29 1995
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From: "Kevin L. Gross"
Message-Id: <199504011846.KAA21916@westweb.com>
Subject: test, pls ignore
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:46:41 -0800 (PST)
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I sent a message last night and never received it.
-Kevin L. Gross klg@westweb.com Disclaim THIS:
*****************************************************************
"When I'm a good dog, they sometimes throw me a bone."
--Pink Floyd
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 3 07:20:52 1995
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:14:19 -0100
From: Pedro Amorim
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From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 3 11:33:09 1995
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To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: myattj@cadvision.com (Justin "Kipper" Myatt)
Subject: The Best List I've seen so far
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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This is quite a nice list - I get to read it real quick like .....
-----------------------------------------------------------
Justin Myatt - Email Personage | Call me at 403 290 3262
GE Capital Technology Services | Fax me at 403 290 2566
435, 4th Ave SW | Email to:
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2P 3A8 | myattj@cadvision.com
Brrr it's cold here today.... | CrudUServe(CIS)72234.23
-----------------------------------------------------------
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 3 21:50:20 1995
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:32:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Michael J. Osofsky"
Subject: Re: The Best List I've seen so far
To: Justin Kipper Myatt
cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <9504031815.AA21556@luey.cadvision.com>
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On Mon, 3 Apr 1995, Justin Kipper Myatt wrote:
>
> This is quite a nice list - I get to read it real quick like .....
>
>
What list is? List-Managers?
mike
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 4 10:22:19 1995
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:56:39 -0600
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To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: myattj@cadvision.com (Justin "Kipper" Myatt)
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #73
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Well I have great fun managing the mail coming in. Now I just need a
replacment for Eudora that will let me creat rules (a la' cc:Mail windows
client) to deal with some of my inbound mail.
cheers
Justin
-----------------------------------------------------------
Justin Myatt - Email Personage | Call me at 403 290 3262
GE Capital Technology Services | Fax me at 403 290 2566
435, 4th Ave SW | Email to:
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2P 3A8 | myattj@cadvision.com
Brrr it's cold here today.... | CrudUServe(CIS)72234.23
-----------------------------------------------------------
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 4 11:53:28 1995
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From: sullivan@fa.disney.com
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 11:42 PDT
To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Digest Format
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Is there a standard format for digests that I should be using so things
like newsreaders can break up a digest? Where would I find out about
this format? Thanks.
Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com
Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 544 2683 (voice)
Glendale, CA +1 818 544 4579 (fax)
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 4 12:22:22 1995
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 15:13:23 EDT
From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
To: sullivan@fa.disney.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Digest Format
Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ
Message-ID: <9504041513.aa15512@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Michael Sullivan wrote:
>Is there a standard format for digests that I should be using so things
>like newsreaders can break up a digest? Where would I find out about
>this format? Thanks.
RFC 1153 has the info you need:
Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 08:20:38 1995
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:03:10 -0600
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To: agoodloe@best.com (Amy Goodloe/Women Online),
list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: myattj@cadvision.com (Justin "Kipper" Myatt)
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #73
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Amy - it looks as if the commercial version will handle rules etc... Now I
have to weigh this against Pegesus mail that has rules too and appears to
deal with more forms of attachment.
ta
justin
>>Well I have great fun managing the mail coming in. Now I just need a
>>replacment for Eudora that will let me creat rules (a la' cc:Mail windows
>>client) to deal with some of my inbound mail.
>
>Are you sure you can't do what you want with some of Eudora's extra
>settings?? What is it you want and I'll check for you.
>
>--Amy
>agoodloe@best.com
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Justin Myatt - Email Personage | Call me at 403 290 3262
GE Capital Technology Services | Fax me at 403 290 2566
435, 4th Ave SW | Email to:
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2P 3A8 | myattj@cadvision.com
Brrr it's cold here today.... | CrudUServe(CIS)72234.23
-----------------------------------------------------------
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 08:24:55 1995
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:07:11 -0600
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To: "Alan Millar" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: myattj@cadvision.com (Justin "Kipper" Myatt)
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #73
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Yah - I loaded and the damm thing does not have any of the POP/SMTP server
menus displayed...... I guess another trip through the manual is required.
How does this compare with Eudora - commercial version ??
ta
justin
>> Well I have great fun managing the mail coming in. Now I just need a
>> replacment for Eudora that will let me creat rules (a la' cc:Mail windows
>> client) to deal with some of my inbound mail.
>
>I use Pegasus Mail for Windows. It is available for free from
>ftp://risc.ua.edu/
>
>It is a full Windows POP mail client, and also supports MHS and
>Novell-LAN based mail. I'm using it for POP.
>
>It has very good rule-filtering capabilities built in. I highly
>recommend it.
>
>You can take quite a few actions based on the contents of header
>fields. Check it out!
>
>- Alan
>----
>Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org
>System Administrator Web: http://turnpike.net/metro/amillar
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Justin Myatt - Email Personage | Call me at 403 290 3262
GE Capital Technology Services | Fax me at 403 290 2566
435, 4th Ave SW | Email to:
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2P 3A8 | myattj@cadvision.com
Brrr it's cold here today.... | CrudUServe(CIS)72234.23
-----------------------------------------------------------
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 08:50:49 1995
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5 Apr 95 16:22:57 +0100
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 16:22:56 +0000 (WETDST)
From: Oscar Fernandez Sierra
Subject: Fail in Return-Path
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Message-id: <01HOZIENT8GI9OD07K@etsiig.uniovi.es>
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85]
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Hello!
I've installed majordomo under uid an gid "majordom". Now, when i send
a mail to the list test, in the field Return-Path appears
majordom@charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es
instead of
owner-test@charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es
or something similar (test-owner). How can i solve this. I didn't find
any related in FAQ, README nor resend.README.
I have the standard majordomo.cf, without modifications.
My system in an HP 715, running HP-UX 9.01.
I send here a piece of /usr/lib/aliases
***************************
[... deleted ...]
# Local aliases
# For majordomo
majordomo: "|/users/majordom/wrapper majordomo"
owner-majordomo: oscar
majordomo-owner: oscar
# For test ****************
test: "|/users/majordom/wrapper resend -l test -h charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es test-outgoing"
test-outgoing: :include:/users/majordom/lists/test
owner-test: oscar
test-owner: oscar
test-request: "|/users/majordom/wrapper request-answer test"
test-approval: oscar
#End of aliases
Thanks a lot in advance.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Oscar Fernandez Sierra |
| Escuela Tecnica Superior de Ingenieros Industriales de Gijon |
| Departamento de Construccion e Ingenieria de Fabricacion |
| Ctra. de Castiello s/n 33204 |
| Gijon (Spain) |
| |
| E-mail: oscar@charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es Phone: INT + 34 + 8 + 518.20.51 |
| WWW: http://www1.uniovi.es/ FAX: INT + 34 + 8 + 533.85.38 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 09:20:56 1995
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 12:03:33 EDT
From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
To: Oscar Fernandez Sierra ,
list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Fail in Return-Path
Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ
Message-ID: <9504051203.aa22000@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
>I've installed majordomo under uid an gid "majordom". Now, when i send
>a mail to the list test, in the field Return-Path appears
> majordom@charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es
>instead of
> owner-test@charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es
>or something similar (test-owner). How can i solve this. I didn't find
By asking the majordomo list? This is the List-Managers list.
majordomo-users@greatcircle.com
Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 11:51:11 1995
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id AA15309; Wed, 5 Apr 95 11:26:24 MST
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 11:26:24 MST
From: mcollins@lnd.state.az.us (Micheal Collins Intern)
Message-Id: <9504051826.AA15309@lnd.state.az.us>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: memory fault - 139?
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Howdy-
After setting up majordomo 1.93 on SunOps 4.x, Perl 4.036,
I am getting the following messages from everyone who tries to
subcribe to a list, or use "lists" from majordomo on host.
----- Transcript of session follows -----
sh: 15112 Memory fault
554 "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo"... unknown mailer error 139
Now this is what is strange. I (as owner) can use majordomo functions
properly with this message sent to me AFTER it answers my requests or
commands. For everyone else it sends the above message to them BEFORE
it answers their request, and does not answer them. It just bounces their
request right back at them.
We are all going crazy here trying to figure this one out.
Any help would be seriously appreciated!
Thanks a bunch in advance,
Michael Collins
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 14:50:48 1995
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:22:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Roger Burns
Reply-To: Roger Burns
Subject: Re: memory fault - 139?
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
cc: list-managers-request@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <9504051826.AA15309@lnd.state.az.us>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I subscribed to this group to read about general list-management issues.
I keep reading here about majordomo technical issues, which don't
interest me because I don't run a majordomo list. I am aware that there
is a majordomo technical list.
My interest in following this group is for reading only about
non-software-specific issues, and I thought that was in the charter for
this group. Could we please get a ruling from this group's list-owner
about what is and is not appropriate for discussion here? I would like a
distinction made clear between what is on- and off-topic for this group.
-- Roger Burns cfs-news@cais.cais.com
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 14:53:24 1995
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:34:01 MST
From: mcollins@lnd.state.az.us (Micheal Collins Intern)
Message-Id: <9504052134.AA16655@lnd.state.az.us>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
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get list-managers.9410
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 14:56:33 1995
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:33:34 MST
From: mcollins@lnd.state.az.us (Micheal Collins Intern)
Message-Id: <9504052133.AA16649@lnd.state.az.us>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
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get list-managers.9502
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 15:02:50 1995
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:33:44 MST
From: mcollins@lnd.state.az.us (Micheal Collins Intern)
Message-Id: <9504052133.AA16652@lnd.state.az.us>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
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get list-managers.9503
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 15:08:17 1995
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From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira)
Subject: Mis-Use of List-Managers List
To: cfs-news@cais.cais.com
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:14:59 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: from "Roger Burns" at Apr 5, 95 05:22:56 pm
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Roger wrote:
> I keep reading here about majordomo technical issues, which don't
> interest me because I don't run a majordomo list. [...]
> I would like a distinction made clear between what is on- and
> off-topic for this group.
I too would prefer to see this list focus on general rather than
implementation-specific list issues, and believe that is clearly
its intent.
I don't see much malice on the part of those who are mis-using
the list, though. Rather, they seem to genuinely be confused
about the list's purpose.
Dare I suggest that moving the list to a host other than
greatcircle.com (the famous home of the majordomo software
package) might help disambiguate its intended use?
--
Sean Shapira sds@jazzie.com +1 206 443 2028
Sean's Home Page
Serving the Net since 1990.
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 17:23:38 1995
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800/447-9638
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Paul-Joseph de Werk
Subject: Re: Mis-Use of List-Managers List
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An ether being in cyberspace calling itself - Sean Shapira - uttered:
|
| Subject: Mis-Use of List-Managers List
| Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:14:59 -0700 (PDT)
|
| Roger wrote:
| > I keep reading here about majordomo technical issues, which don't
| > interest me because I don't run a majordomo list. [...]
| > I would like a distinction made clear between what is on- and
| > off-topic for this group.
What is on-topic and what is off-? Hmmm...
Here's what a "lists" request returns me from "majordomo@greatcircle.com"
maybe this will help.
>>>> lists
Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM serves the following lists:
bounces For email addresses that have been bouncing
firewalls Discussions of Internet "firewall" security systems
firewalls-digest Discussions of Internet "firewall" security systems
gca-announce Announcements for Great Circle Associates customers
list-managers For people who manage Internet mailing lists
list-managers-digest For people who manage Internet mailing lists
majordomo-announce Announcements about the Majordomo package
majordomo-docs For people working on Majordomo documentation
majordomo-users For people using Majordomo
majordomo-workers For people extending or developing Majordomo
phonestation Discussions about computer-telephone integration
phonestation-digest Discussions about computer-telephone integration
wvfc-members For members of West Valley Flying Club
Use the 'info ' command to get more information
about a specific list.
>>>> info list-managers
Description
===========
This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet
mailing lists, including (but not limited to) software, methods,
mechanisms, techniques, and policies. This list is an outgrowth of
the "Mailing Lists" workshop session at the USENIX System Administration
Conference (LISA VI) in Long Beach, CA, on October 22, 1992.
[... remainder left off ...]
Hmmm. Seems to me this being the list-managers group and all that
on-topic would be anything having to do with managing a mailing list.
| I too would prefer to see this list focus on general rather than
| implementation-specific list issues, and believe that is clearly
| its intent.
|
| I don't see much malice on the part of those who are mis-using
| the list, though. Rather, they seem to genuinely be confused
| about the list's purpose.
|
| Dare I suggest that moving the list to a host other than
| greatcircle.com (the famous home of the majordomo software
| package) might help disambiguate its intended use?
Maybe they just need to add a list called "list-servers" or
"majordomo-admin" for those people maintaining majordomo itself.
__________________________________________________________________________
[ Paul-Joseph de Werk, B.S. \ RX Net, Inc. ]
[ Systems Analyst II \ MIS Dept. ]
[ \ vrx: paul@av2.vrx.vhi.com ]
[ \ inet: paul%av2.vrx.vhi.com@vhipub.vhi.com ]
[_______________________________\__________________________________________]
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 6 01:58:15 1995
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From: Peter Bowyer
Message-Id: <199504060853.JAA08299@insite.parasoft.co.uk>
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #75
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:53:16 +0200 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <199504060800.BAA16113@miles.greatcircle.com> from "list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Apr 6, 95 01:00:17 am
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All,
No, I'm not being lazy by not changing the reply subject; I'm *really* writing
a reply about last night's digest.
It contained *no* on-top information whatsoever. None. Not a scrap.
There were people posting Majordomo questions, others telling them not to,
some discussing what the list charter should be and where to find it.
2 posts were mis-directed administrivia.
And there's an ongoing thread about Pegasus vs Eudora as a POP3 client.
And now, I've gone and added to the noise factor by moaning about it.
Come on, List managers - this used to be a good, low-volume, high-quality
list. What can we do to restore it to its former glory?
Peter
--
Peter Bowyer
peter@insite.parasoft.co.uk
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 6 10:27:45 1995
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:03:51 -0800
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman)
Subject: List-Managers is NOT the place for Majordomo support discussions
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Just to make it perfectly clear to everyone: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
is NOT the appropriate forum for support discussions related to a
particular mailing list management package. Such discussions should be
directed to that package's support mailing list. In the case of Majordomo,
that's "Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM"; other packages have their own
lists hosted elsewhere, and should be mentioned in the documentation for
the package.
List-Managers is an appropriate place for discussions comparing multiple
packages, or discussing mailing list management package features without
regard to particular packages (for instance, discussing how various
packages deal with bounced mail).
-Brent
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule
of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates
Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street
+1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 6 10:32:52 1995
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:58:24 -0800
To: Paul-Joseph de Werk ,
list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Mis-Use of List-Managers List
Cc: mcb@GreatCircle.COM
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At 4:41 PM 4/5/95, Paul-Joseph de Werk wrote:
>An ether being in cyberspace calling itself - Sean Shapira - uttered:
>|
>| Subject: Mis-Use of List-Managers List
>| Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:14:59 -0700 (PDT)
>|
>| Roger wrote:
>| > I keep reading here about majordomo technical issues, which don't
>| > interest me because I don't run a majordomo list. [...]
>| > I would like a distinction made clear between what is on- and
>| > off-topic for this group.
>
>What is on-topic and what is off-? Hmmm...
>
>Here's what a "lists" request returns me from "majordomo@greatcircle.com"
>maybe this will help.
>
>>>>> info list-managers
>Description
>===========
>This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet
>mailing lists, including (but not limited to) software, methods,
>mechanisms, techniques, and policies. This list is an outgrowth of
>the "Mailing Lists" workshop session at the USENIX System Administration
>Conference (LISA VI) in Long Beach, CA, on October 22, 1992.
>
>[... remainder left off ...]
>
>Hmmm. Seems to me this being the list-managers group and all that
>on-topic would be anything having to do with managing a mailing list.
The policy has always been that discussions specific to a single package,
such as Majordomo, LISTSERV, LISTPROC, or whatever, should be sent to that
package's support mailing list (for instance,
Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM), and that only discussions concerning
software in general, or comparisons between different packages, or features
in general, and so forth, are appropriate for the List-Managers mailing
list.
We'll update the info file for List-Managers to clarify that.
We've been kind of busy around here lately, so many of our lists (including
List-Managers) have been running more-or-less on autopilot, without anyone
following postings to them too closely.
>| I too would prefer to see this list focus on general rather than
>| implementation-specific list issues, and believe that is clearly
>| its intent.
>|
>| I don't see much malice on the part of those who are mis-using
>| the list, though. Rather, they seem to genuinely be confused
>| about the list's purpose.
>|
>| Dare I suggest that moving the list to a host other than
>| greatcircle.com (the famous home of the majordomo software
>| package) might help disambiguate its intended use?
>
>Maybe they just need to add a list called "list-servers" or
>"majordomo-admin" for those people maintaining majordomo itself.
Already exists, and has since before List-Managers:
Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM.
-Brent
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule
of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates
Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street
+1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 6 23:26:38 1995
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 02:19:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Roger Burns
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #75
To: Brent Chapman
cc: Peter Bowyer , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <199504060853.JAA08299@insite.parasoft.co.uk>
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On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Peter Bowyer wrote:
> No, I'm not being lazy by not changing the reply subject; I'm *really* writing
> a reply about last night's digest.
>
> It contained *no* on-top information whatsoever. None. Not a scrap.
> Come on, List managers - this used to be a good, low-volume, high-quality
> list. What can we do to restore it to its former glory?
I'd like to see a hands-on list-manager be assigned to monitor this list
daily and to notify posters when their messages are off-topic. Yes,
moderation. If an appropriate volunteer were available to take on this
responsibility, would Brent be willing to assign them to be the list-manager/
moderator?
-- Roger Burns cfs-news@cais.cais.com
From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 21:57:35 1995
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From: "Kevin L. Gross"
Message-Id: <199504010721.XAA15197@westweb.com>
Subject: Help! Digest goes to List too
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 23:21:35 -0800 (PST)
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Hi,
Help! I've run out of ideas. I've tried to set up Majordomo lists using
the _Managing_Internet_Information_Services_ book as an example. I have
several lists that seem to be working well except for a couple of things:
1. The digest gets sent to not only the digest list, but to the regular
list as well. This is what the aliases (minus owner-*) look like:
planb: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l planb -h westweb.com \
planb-outgoing"
planb-approval: owner-planb
planb-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/planb,
planb-archive, "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l planb-digest \
planb-digest-outgoing"
planb-archive: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -a -m -f \
/usr/local/majordomo/archive/planb"
planb-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper request-answer planb"
planb-digest: planb
planb-digest-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/planb-digest
planb-digest-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l planb-digest"
planb-digest-approval: planb-approval
2. When I try to use the request-answer program in Majordomo1.93, there
is no response at all. When I run this command:
echo "subscribe klg planb" | /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper request-answer planb
I get this error: Undefined subroutine "main'lopen" called at
/usr/local/majordomo/majordomo.pl line 229,
line 1.
That sub is defined in shlock.pl but I get a still different error
after adding this line to majordomo.pl:
require 'shlock.pl';
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
-Kevin L. Gross klg@westweb.com Disclaim THIS:
*****************************************************************
" " -- Marcel Marceau
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 05:57:12 1995
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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:46:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Roger Burns
Subject: what's on-topic?
To: List Managers list ,
List Managers list ,
mcb@GreatCircle.COM, Brent Chapman
cc: "Kevin L. Gross"
Message-ID:
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Again we're seeing off-topic material. Are non-majordomo list managers
like me welcome on this list? I'm cc'ing this to Brent & others once
more, in hopes of getting a response to my request for moderation of this
list.
-- Roger Burns cfs-news@cais.cais.com
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 23:21:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Kevin L. Gross
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Help! Digest goes to List too
Hi,
Help! I've run out of ideas. I've tried to set up Majordomo lists using
the _Managing_Internet_Information_Services_ book as an example. I have
several lists that seem to be working well except for a couple of things:
1. The digest gets sent to not only the digest list, but to the regular
list as well. This is what the aliases (minus owner-*) look like:
planb: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l planb -h westweb.com \
planb-outgoing"
planb-approval: owner-planb
planb-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/planb,
planb-archive, "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l planb-digest \
planb-digest-outgoing"
planb-archive: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -a -m -f \
/usr/local/majordomo/archive/planb"
planb-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper request-answer planb"
planb-digest: planb
planb-digest-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/planb-digest
planb-digest-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l planb-digest"
planb-digest-approval: planb-approval
2. When I try to use the request-answer program in Majordomo1.93, there
is no response at all. When I run this command:
echo "subscribe klg planb" | /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper request-answer planb
I get this error: Undefined subroutine "main'lopen" called at
/usr/local/majordomo/majordomo.pl line 229,
line 1.
That sub is defined in shlock.pl but I get a still different error
after adding this line to majordomo.pl:
require 'shlock.pl';
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
-Kevin L. Gross klg@westweb.com Disclaim THIS:
*****************************************************************
" " -- Marcel Marceau
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 06:27:07 1995
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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:05:46 -0500
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To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: vick@Onramp.NET (Bill Vick)
Subject: List Response
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I'm a newbie so please bear with my basic question.
I have a list (digest) that goes out to 1,000 subscribers. I want to set it
up so a subscriber can send back a number of a article or document recapped
in the digest and automatically receive it something like fax on demand. Is
this possible with majordomo? I know its being done with other kinds of
lists but do not have a clue where or how to begin to implement this. Any
help, ideas or suggestions greatly welcomed.
Thanks - Bill Vick
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 06:57:33 1995
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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 9:47:38 EDT
From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
To: Roger Burns
cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: what's on-topic?
Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ
Message-ID: <9504100947.aa02530@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>
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Roger Burns
>Again we're seeing off-topic material. Are non-majordomo list managers
>like me welcome on this list?
I dunno. I just unsubbed. I have better things to do with my time than deal
with people who subscribe to a list called list managers and can't be
bothered to send THEIR mail to the proper list.
>like me welcome on this list? I'm cc'ing this to Brent & others once
>more, in hopes of getting a response to my request for moderation of this
>list.
That would be nice. Do me a favor and drop me a note if it actually happens,
OK?
Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 09:01:01 1995
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To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
Cc: Roger Burns , list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: How to keep on topic.
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:47:38 EDT."
<9504100947.aa02530@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:42:17 -0400
From: "John P. Rouillard"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message <9504100947.aa02530@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>,
Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer writes:
>Roger Burns
>>Again we're seeing off-topic material. Are non-majordomo list managers
>>like me welcome on this list?
>
>I dunno. I just unsubbed. I have better things to do with my time than deal
>with people who subscribe to a list called list managers and can't be
>bothered to send THEIR mail to the proper list.
>
>>like me welcome on this list? I'm cc'ing this to Brent & others once
>>more, in hopes of getting a response to my request for moderation of this
>>list.
>
>That would be nice. Do me a favor and drop me a note if it actually happens,
>OK?
Ok, this is a valid question.
How do we deal with off topic postings?
Is running to moderation the answer?
How about automated filtering in the list management software?
Looking for certain key words etc. Granted this is also
moderation of a form, but seem to me to be more
managable that total moderation.
Is it a matter of education?
As far as education, what I have been doing with the majordomo posts,
is responding to the sender saying:
Your post seems to deal with majordomo. Please send your message
to majordomo-users@greatcirce.com, and NOT to
list-managers@greatcircle.com.
Hey if the current maintainer of majordomo telling them to post to the
right list won't help, what will 8-). So is the above sufficient? Do
you use a more strongly worded (%^$^#@#) response and shift the top
row of typewriter keys 8-).
Or is this something that can/should be done by end users using a
delivery program such as procmail, deliver etc to search for "listname
list-managers and found word majordomo" in incomming mail and dispose
of properly.
-- John
John Rouillard
Senior Systems Administrator IDD Information Services
rouilj@dstar.iddis.com Waltham, MA (617) 890-7227 x337
(617) 487-3937 (Direct)
Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston
rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480
===============================================================================
My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions.
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 10:01:42 1995
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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:48:00 -0800
To: "John P. Rouillard" ,
Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: How to keep on topic.
Cc: Roger Burns , list-managers@greatcircle.com,
mcb@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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At 11:42 AM 4/10/95, John P. Rouillard wrote:
>In message <9504100947.aa02530@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>,
>Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer writes:
>>Roger Burns
>>>Again we're seeing off-topic material. Are non-majordomo list managers
>>>like me welcome on this list?
Absolutely!
>>I dunno. I just unsubbed. I have better things to do with my time than deal
>>with people who subscribe to a list called list managers and can't be
>>bothered to send THEIR mail to the proper list.
>>
>>>like me welcome on this list? I'm cc'ing this to Brent & others once
>>>more, in hopes of getting a response to my request for moderation of this
>>>list.
We're considering it. The problem is, we're so buried around here right
now that we don't even have time to consider ways to get unburied... I'll
talk to MCB about it this week, and see what we can come up with.
>Hey if the current maintainer of majordomo telling them to post to the
>right list won't help, what will 8-). So is the above sufficient? Do
>you use a more strongly worded (%^$^#@#) response and shift the top
>row of typewriter keys 8-).
>
>Or is this something that can/should be done by end users using a
>delivery program such as procmail, deliver etc to search for "listname
>list-managers and found word majordomo" in incomming mail and dispose
>of properly.
I'm beginning to wish for a general-purpose regular-expression-matching
rejection filter in Majordomo, where I could specify regular expressions on
a per-list basis that should kick messages out for list-owner approval.
There's already a fixed regular expression check in the guts of the code
for keywords like "subscribe", to catch misdirected administrivia; I want
the regular expression list brought out where the list manager can edit it.
There are a number of circumstances where I'd use this (for instance,
looking for Majordomo discussions in List-Managers, as mentioned above;
also, looking for "Subject:.*satan" to stifle flame wars in Firewalls,
looking for certain addresses or Received: lines to kill posting loops,
etc.).
-Brent
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule
of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates
Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street
+1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 10:31:46 1995
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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 10:02:52 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Revised List-Managers charter; everyone should read
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I've revised the charter statement for List-Managers to reflect the
long-standing policy that questions about particular software packages
(such as Majordomo, ListProc, LISTSERV, etc.) should be posted to the list
dedicated to that package, NOT to List-Managers.
We're in danger of destroying a valuable resource; folks who've contributed
much to past discussions are unsubscribing from List-Managers because
they're fed up with these misdirected support inquiries.
My suggestions to everyone about how to handle the misdirected questions:
respond by email to the originator directing them to the proper forum. Do
NOT include List-Managers in your reply; that will only make the volume
there worse. Do NOT answer the originator's question; they should not be
rewarded for their mistake.
Here is the revised charter:
>This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet
>mailing lists, including (but not limited to) methods, mechanisms,
>techniques, policies, and software (in general; questions about
>specific software packages should be directed to the mailing list
>dedicated to that particular package).
>
>Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for
>instance, Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are NOT appropriate
>for the List-Managers mailing list. They should be directed to the
>mailing list dedicated to that particular package (for instance,
>for Majordomo, that's Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM). Check the
>documentation that came with the package to find out where the support
>list for that package is hosted.
>
>This list is an outgrowth of the "Mailing Lists" workshop session
>at the USENIX System Administration Conference (LISA VI) in Long
>Beach, CA, on October 22, 1992.
-Brent
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule
of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates
Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street
+1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 12:00:21 1995
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From: bollow@math.ethz.ch
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:15:25 +0200
Message-Id: <199504041315.PAA12821@vaden.math.ethz.ch>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Questions: bounces FAQ, 'host unknown' bounces
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I have recently agreed to take over a mailing list called "CHURCHPLANTERS"
which targets missionaries and the like, i.e. people who don't necessarily
know much about computers, networks, etc. For this reason I want to be a
'friendly' list admin, who tries to help people whose e-mail bounces as far
as possible. I'm new to running mailing list, and I'm just figuring out
some things. Is there a 'bounces FAQ' list somewhere? I have recently
found out that with some of my 'host unknown' bounces I can actually
telnet to the mailport of the recipient's machine like in the example
below. What exactly is the reason for the 'host unknown' bounces under
these circumstances?
Norbert
bollow@vaden:bollow> telnet ANSYS.COM 25
Trying 192.104.24.51 ...
Connected to ansys.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 fea1.ansys.com.ansys.com Sendmail 4.1/SMI-4.1 ready at Tue, 4 Apr 95 08:49:53 EDT
helo vaden.math.ethz.ch
250 fea1.ansys.com.ansys.com Hello vaden.math.ethz.ch, pleased to meet you
mail from:
250 ... Sender ok
vrfy stevej
250
rcpt to: stevej
250 stevej... Recipient ok
data
354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself
Greetings in name of Jesus!
As "list owner" of the CHURCHPLANTERS list I receive error messages when
e-mail to one of the addresses on the CHURCHPLANTERS mailing list cannot
be delivered. The listserver has registered your address as stevej@ANSYS.COM
However, e-mail to that address bounces with error messages like the
following:
Error-For: stevej@ANSYS.COM
Error-Code: 2
Error-Text: %MX-F-NOHOST, no such host
-Retry count exceeded
-(Via ANSYS.COM)
I would suggest that you bring the problem to the attention of your local
computer experts, and ask them to help you. Please notify me as soon as the
problem has been sorted out. Until then I'll have to remove your address
from the mailing list. (I'm sending this mail via interactive telnet to the
mailport of your machine, if you wonder how it is possible at all for me
to send you e-mail in these circumstances.) God bless, Norbert.
--
Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland. Admin of the CHURCHPLANTERS list.
Email-To: bollow@math.ethz.ch PGP encrypted mail welcome.
PGP public key available by 'finger bollow@gatekeeper.math.ethz.ch'.
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 15:31:08 1995
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To: Brent@greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman)
Cc: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer ,
Roger Burns , list-managers@greatcircle.com,
mcb@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: How to keep on topic.
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:48:00 -0800."
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:18:36 -0400
From: "John P. Rouillard"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message ,
Brent Chapman writes:
>I'm beginning to wish for a general-purpose regular-expression-matching
>rejection filter in Majordomo, where I could specify regular expressions on
>a per-list basis that should kick messages out for list-owner approval.
Um, Brent, this list isn't majordomo-workers, its list-managers
;-). That's why I wasn't more explicit in my original message 8-).
>There are a number of circumstances where I'd use this (for instance,
>looking for Majordomo discussions in List-Managers, as mentioned above;
>also, looking for "Subject:.*satan" to stifle flame wars in Firewalls,
>looking for certain addresses or Received: lines to kill posting loops,
>etc.).
Ok, so we have one vote for some sort of list manager administerable
text filters. In the interest of research, and not mentioning my
favorite MLM, how many packages out there offer this type of
functionality?
Also what level of selectivity would be required? Obviously selection
by header field, received, subject, the pseudo header body which is
the body of the message, and the pseudoheader any which is anywhere in
the message. Are there other types of filters you would like to see in
you MLM package?
In specifying the filters, would unix shell type patterns be
sufficient (i.e. alphanumeric characters and [a-z] for the letters
a-z, ? for any character, and * for multiple characters)? So the
Subject:.*satan would be written as:
subject nocase *satan*
to force the message with the word satan anywhere inthe subject to be
bounced. The filter:
subject nocase satan
would only bounce a subject that had only the word satan in it (in
regexp it would be /^satan$/). By the same token something like:
body nocase,nomatch,lines=5 *firewall*
would cause any message that does not have the word firewall somewhere
in the first 5 lines of the body to be bounced. And of course the
following filter would be put into list-managers:
any nocase majordomo
Oops, I guess this message wouldn't make it through now would it 8-).
If the method above were used, would we need explicit beginning and
end of line markers (as opposed to the implict ones that are there by
default? Are full regular expressions needed?
Quips, comments evasions, questions and answers welcome. Flames to
/dev/null.
-- John
John Rouillard
Senior Systems Administrator IDD Information Services
rouilj@dstar.iddis.com Waltham, MA (617) 890-7227 x337
(617) 487-3937 (Direct)
Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston
rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480
===============================================================================
My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions.
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 18:27:09 1995
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 03:05:22 +0200
From: Eric Thomas
Subject: Re: How to keep on topic.
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:18:36 -0400 from
list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Precedence: bulk
On Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:18:36 -0400 "John P. Rouillard"
said:
>And of course the
>following filter would be put into list-managers:
>
> any nocase majordomo
>
>Oops, I guess this message wouldn't make it through now would it 8-).
You got it. That's why such filters are next to useless. Another reason
is that people aren't stupid. If they can't say "Majordomo" they'll say
"M*jordomo" or "the M word" or whatever. They'll come up with new ways
faster than you can filter them. Filters make sense when you're trying to
catch mistakes from newbies who don't understand the difference between
list and MLM address, or genuine one-time mistakes in general. Filters
don't work for censorship. Guess where "durn", "darn" and the like come
from? :-)
Eric
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 19:56:48 1995
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From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin)
Subject: Re: How to keep on topic.
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 21:32:31 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <199504102218.AA16298@cs.umb.edu> from "John P. Rouillard" at Apr 10, 95 06:18:36 pm
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John Rouillard asked,
| Ok, so we have one vote for some sort of list manager administerable
| text filters. In the interest of research, and not mentioning my
| favorite MLM, how many packages out there offer this type of
| functionality?
I know of one (and, like John, I won't name names) that has pre-coded places
for adding such extra processing if one wants or needs to. But as Eric
Thomas posted, it would catch posts from people who don't know the rules, not
from those who know them and work hard to circumvent them. The only way to
handle that reliably is moderation.
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 21:56:48 1995
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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 21:46:18 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Bakalite@bdt.com (The Bakalite)
Subject: Hello and Heeeelp!
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Hello, a bit of introduction.
I manage a mailing list (for about 8 months) that deals with issues
relating to macintosh digital audio workstations (daw-mac@netcom.com).
It's been a lot of fun, but there have been a few problems.
Netcom is oblivious to my mail, they periodically wipe or mangle the
directory of the list, the mail is slow... you get the idea.
What's more, they dont' provide www or slip, so I'm looking for another
provider who will host my list. The problem is that I need a reliable
provider, because I don't want to move the list around too many times
(pointers on how to do this painlessly are greatly appreciated).
Soo, you ask, why is this guy not following nettiquette and hanging out for
a while before posting to a list he just subscribed to? The reason is that
I am thinking of going with "community connection", a Berkeley based
provider, but I wan tto make sure there isn't an obvious better choice. If
there is some amazingly cool provider for mailing lists I could even keep
my account at bdt and telnet in if it isn't local to Oakland (where I
live).
THanks in advance for any pointers.
PS did I mention that netcom is still using version 1.6 something of
majordomo and doesn't support dogests? (they do allow 5 lists per account
though).
Paul Braunbehrens
Bakalite@bdt.com
List Administrator daw-mac@netcom.com
Ask me about the DAW-MAC mailing list
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 22:56:45 1995
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From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira)
Subject: Specifying List Filters
To: rouilj@cs.umb.edu (John P. Rouillard)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 21:48:51 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: <199504102218.AA16298@cs.umb.edu> from "John P. Rouillard" at Apr 10, 95 06:18:36 pm
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John Rouillard asked:
> Are full regular expressions needed?
It's hard to imagine being truly satisfied with anything
less.
Indeed, customizable filters based on installable macros,
rather like any decent text editor provides, sure would be
nice.
(And while we're at it, can we standardize on Perl as the
macro scripting language? ;-)
--
Sean Shapira sds@jazzie.com +1 206 443 2028
Sean's Home Page
Serving the Net since 1990.
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 04:56:50 1995
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:54:18 -0300 (ADT)
From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert)
Subject: Getting off the topic
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Message-id: <9504111154.AA20409@biome.bio.dfo.ca>
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I seem to have missed something here. Eric Thomas writes:
>You got it. That's why such filters are next to useless. Another reason
>is that people aren't stupid. If they can't say "Majordomo" they'll say
>"M*jordomo" or "the M word" or whatever. They'll come up with new ways
>faster than you can filter them. Filters make sense when you're trying to
>catch mistakes from newbies who don't understand the difference between
>list and MLM address, or genuine one-time mistakes in general. Filters
>don't work for censorship. Guess where "durn", "darn" and the like come
>from? :-)
I thought that the major problem we were dealing with was posters who
sent Majordomo posts to this list because they didn't understand that
the Majordomo list was the right place for such postings, not with
vicious and malicious hackers who are trying to subvert this list by
posting dumb questions about Majordomo. Sure filters don't work for
censorship, but are we trying to implement censorship or do we just want
to discourage inappropriate postings?
Actually I think that Eric's post suggests a reasonable solution. Why
not add a filter to bounce messages that contain the word "Majordomo"?
Every so often we could post a reminder that this is not the right place
to post Majordomo questions, but that if any subscriber wants to refer
to Majordomo (as both Eric and I have done) we should use a code phrase
like the ones that Eric suggests? Sure anyone can maliciously
circumvent this, but it would be clear that they knew the rules and were
deliberately breaking them.
Of course if a lot of people do that, then we may have no other choice
than to go along with Eric and impose real censorship.
--
Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Div., Bedford Inst. Oceanography
P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2
Personal InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca
HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 07:57:27 1995
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:34:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michelle Murrain
Subject: An interesting AOL thing...
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <199504110800.BAA24263@miles.greatcircle.com>
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I found out from a subscriber of one of my lists (the one with lots of
AOL subscribers) that if one is reading mail from a mailing list, there
is a button, apparently, called "status" which when pressed, gives a list
of all of the subscribers to a list who are on AOL. When I first heard
about this I got quite upset, because this list is supposed to be a
semi-private list, and I was concerned that a non-subscriber could get
hold of the subscribers from AOL. It turns out that you have to be sent
mail from the list first, but I still see problematic aspects to it.
Anyway, I thought some list managers might want to know.
Michelle
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. email and finger:
School of Natural Science mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu
Hampshire College mmurrain@family.hampshire.edu
Amherst, MA 01002
URL: http://www.hampshire.edu/Hampshire/ns/html/Murrain.html
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 09:04:43 1995
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To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu
From: Paul-Joseph de Werk
Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
X-Originating-Host: paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com
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An ether being in cyberspace calling itself - Michelle Murrain - uttered:
|
| Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:34:25 -0400 (EDT)
| Subject: An interesting AOL thing...
|
| I found out from a subscriber of one of my lists (the one with lots of
| AOL subscribers) that if one is reading mail from a mailing list, there
| is a button, apparently, called "status" which when pressed, gives a list
| of all of the subscribers to a list who are on AOL. When I first heard
| about this I got quite upset, because this list is supposed to be a
| semi-private list, and I was concerned that a non-subscriber could get
| hold of the subscribers from AOL. It turns out that you have to be sent
| mail from the list first, but I still see problematic aspects to it.
If I read this correctly I think I can explain what the person meant.
Let's assume that these three people are on a mailing list:
person_a@aol.com
person_b@aol.com
person_c@somesite.somewhere.else
What I think happens is that AOL stores the messages in a global pool
and tags it as being for person_a and person_b. Now, person_a decides
press the "Status" button. What they get is a list containing person_a
and person_b. Person_c is not on the list because they are not on AOL.
The "status" button doesn't return the people on the mailing list, but
the people at AOL that received that particular posting. (If each
person was sent a separate copy (mail person_a@aol.com;
mail person_b@aol.com) then the "status" button wouldn't work. It only
work when they are sent carbon copies (mail person_a@aol.com,
person_b@aol.com).
I guess AOL uses a tagged message format to conserve on disk space. I
guess they assumed a lot of people would be using mailing lists.
-Paul
__________________________________________________________________________
[ Paul-Joseph de Werk, B.S. \ RX Net, Inc. ]
[ Systems Analyst II \ MIS Dept. ]
[ \ vrx: paul@av2.vrx.vhi.com ]
[ \ inet: paul%av2.vrx.vhi.com@vhipub.vhi.com ]
[_______________________________\__________________________________________]
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 09:58:00 1995
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:34:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Donn F. Davy"
Subject: Filter off-topic msgs
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
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I wonder if reg exps is enough to filter out off-topic stuff. This
appears to me to be a _very_ key need in online communications of all
sorts, not just mailing lists: i.e. since there is an overwhelming amount
of material of _potential_ interest out there, itself hidden in a torrent
of less interesting stuff, most everyone needs agents with the savvy to
figure out what I want and get the good stuff.
Isn't this a job for a neural net, trained to individual needs, maybe
assisted by regular expression specs? The software that could provide
such a service in a general way, for multiple applications might be the
next killer-app, even more useful than Web-browsers and Satan. Anyone
heard of such a thing? Perhaps we (list-managers) are the environment out
of which it could start.
Donn Davy, Human Genome Center, Lawrence Berkeley Lab
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 10:01:58 1995
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for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
From: Gess Shankar
Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar)
Message-ID: <60Fe4c1w165w@knex.mind.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 95 12:16:28 EST
In-Reply-To:
Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>|
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Michelle Murrain writes:
> I found out from a subscriber of one of my lists (the one with lots of
> AOL subscribers) that if one is reading mail from a mailing list, there
> is a button, apparently, called "status" which when pressed, gives a list
> of all of the subscribers to a list who are on AOL. When I first heard
> about this I got quite upset, because this list is supposed to be a
> semi-private list, and I was concerned that a non-subscriber could get
> hold of the subscribers from AOL. It turns out that you have to be sent
> mail from the list first, but I still see problematic aspects to it.
>
If this is true, it is not so cool. Even if this "status" is restricted
to the subscribers of a given list, I see problems for those people who
do not wish to have their subscription status known (for whatever reason).
Many MLMs provide options to turn "review" off so that a subscriber can
stay off the listserver's own review lists.
How does AOL collect these addresses? It seems they have to take some
pains to keep such "status" updated... And isn't this some form of
invasion of privacy etc... so to speak. After all this is email,
even though it is a distribution list.
GeSS
--
Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>|
Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>|
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 11:27:31 1995
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Message-Id:
From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin)
Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
To: gess@knex.mind.org
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 13:19:56 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <60Fe4c1w165w@knex.mind.org> from "Gess Shankar" at Apr 11, 95 12:16:28 pm
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Gess Shankar asked,
| How does AOL collect these addresses? It seems they have to take some
| pains to keep such "status" updated...
What they probably display is a list of the other recipients of that letter;
you might even be able to try the `status' icon on a letter addressed to
three AOL accounts, not through a mailing list, and see the other two names.
I HIGHLY doubt that it consults the list maintainer's own database. What if
the list is run at a UUCP site and has no direct Internet link, for example?
If any AOL users who received the message have quit the mailing list since
it was sent, or if any other AOL customers have joined it since that message
was sent, the information would be out of date, since it would reflect only
who else on AOL received that specific message, not who else on AOL will get
the next message that comes from the list.
MCI Mail used to convert all MCI Mail addresses in Bcc: headers to TO:
headers; if you subscribed to a mailing list from an MCI Mail account, your
mail from the list would include a TO: header for the list (or the original
addressee if it was carboned to the list) plus a TO: header to you and an
additional TO: header for every other MCI Mail account subscribed to the
list. MCI Mail has stopped that practice; the Bcc: line to you appears in
your mail as TO: but other Bcc: headers are not shown at all.
| And isn't this some form of invasion of privacy etc... so to speak.
In my opinion, it is.
In a related opinion of mine, I'm sure that if MLM's that offer `review'
commands or their equivalent had concealment as the default setting, just
about no one would take the trouble to set noconceal.
David W. Tamkin Box 3284 Skokie, Illinois 60076-6284
dattier@wwa.com MCI Mail: 426-1818 +1 312 714 5610
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 12:02:23 1995
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From: PMDAtropos@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:30:14 -0400
Message-Id: <950411143011_79517703@aol.com>
To: mpmns@hamp.hampshire.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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In a message dated 95-04-11 11:02:11 EDT, mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:
>I found out from a subscriber of one of my lists (the one with lots of AOL
>subscribers) that if one is reading mail from a mailing list, there is a
>button, apparently, called "status" which when pressed, gives a list of all
>of the subscribers to a list who are on AOL. When I first heard about this I
>got quite upset, because this list is supposed to be a semi-private list,
>and I was concerned that a non-subscriber could get hold of the subscribers
>from AOL. It turns out that you have to be sent mail from the list first,
but
>I still see problematic aspects to it.
>
>Anyway, I thought some list managers might want to know.
I'm afraid you've been duped, Michelle. The "Status" button is only available
in the "Mail You've Sent" mailbox of AOL members. It only applies to those
addresses who have specifically been included in the To: and CC: fields of a
piece of outgoing mail, and only in the case of AOL members does it provide
information (that being when the mail was read or ignored by the recipient).
Internet addresses always show "not applicable", since we obviously cannot
determine whether or not an Internet recipient has read a given piece of
mail.
The only way the list of subscribers can seen is if the entire list of
subscribers is in the e-mail header.
--
__ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com)
\/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager
Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 - "The spam stops here."
Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 14:27:09 1995
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To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:16:28 PDT."
<60Fe4c1w165w@knex.mind.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:22:46 -0700
From: Jean Marie Diaz
Message-Id: <95Apr11.142306pdt.6951@cesium.clock.org>
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From: Gess Shankar
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:16:28 -0700
How does AOL collect these addresses? It seems they have to take some
pains to keep such "status" updated...
I suspect it's nothing more harrowing than the RCPT TO command in SMTP,
which will generally put as many recipients as possible when
transferring a single mail message. It would make sense for AOL to
internally store a single copy of the message with all the recipients
pointing to it, just as I imagine they would if a message was generated
locally and sent to more than one local user.
Disclaimer: I do not claim to know what AOL IS doing -- I offer a guess
at what they might be doing.
AMBAR
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 15:57:58 1995
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:40:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Behlendorf
To: Bill Silvert
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Getting off the topic
In-Reply-To: <9504111154.AA20409@biome.bio.dfo.ca>
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On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Bill Silvert wrote:
> Actually I think that Eric's post suggests a reasonable solution. Why
> not add a filter to bounce messages that contain the word "Majordomo"?
> Every so often we could post a reminder that this is not the right place
> to post Majordomo questions, but that if any subscriber wants to refer
> to Majordomo (as both Eric and I have done) we should use a code phrase
> like the ones that Eric suggests? Sure anyone can maliciously
> circumvent this, but it would be clear that they knew the rules and were
> deliberately breaking them.
Better yet, if a message has the word "majordomo" in it, send it to
majordomo-users@greatcircle.com instead!
Only half-joking....
Brian
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 22:56:41 1995
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From: Kevin at Freeside Support
Message-Id: <199504120536.AAA05372@freeside.fc.net>
Subject: best way to deliver large lists?
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:36:34 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com
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Two of the lists here are (what I consider to be) particularly large
ones.. 1500 to 2000 addresses each.. that have given me headaches from
time to time. The mail queue gets large, running sendmail processes
(though they seem to spend most of their time just sitting around) choke
the system into swap, etc. There must be a better way..
Does anyone here have suggestions for getting messages out to a large
subscriber list (which invariably contains undeliverable addresses that
seem to *drag* sendmail's delivery to the entire list down time after
time) with a little more efficiency/brains than sendmail has wanted to do
for me? I happen to use Majordomo 1.93 but I didn't consider this
question to be Majordomo specific. Maybe some sendmail tweaking would
help a lot. Some general things that I'd like to see..
* automatically remove "terminal" mail addresses (like "user unknown" or
hosts that no longer exist), possibly after a few days of that..
* move others with delivery problems onto a "bounce" list where they have
to stay until they confirm that their mail is working again and/or a
certain amount of time (I understand Majordomo may already do this..)
* sort easily deliverable mail addresses (and multiple addresses at the
same mail host) toward the top of the list so these people can get each
message swiftly without waiting on problematic addresses that happen to
be ahead of them on the list.
Am I dreaming? Thanks for any help or suggestions you can throw my way..
kevin
--
kevintx@fc.net support@fc.net Freeside Communications 512-339-6094
(providing quality Internet access and services in beautiful Austin, Texas)
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 00:57:50 1995
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:58:46 +0200
From: Eric Thomas
Subject: Re: Getting off the topic
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:54:18 -0300 (ADT) from
list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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The people who posted Majordomo questions to this list and that I
contacted privately said they did it because noone answered their
question on the Majordomo-user list. At any rate, the use of a filter
seems totally counter productive to me. All you have to do to catch
people who genuinely don't know is require people to subscribe before
they can post, and add this at the top of the welcome message:
*************************************************************************
******** THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT LIST TO ASK MAJORDOMO QUESTIONS! *********
*************************************************************************
And then give info on where to post such questions, etc. This should be
sufficient for any literate subscriber to understand that Majordomo
questions are not wanted, without requiring "honest" subscribers to
escape the word every time they want to mention Majordomo in passing.
Automatic filters, like any other attempt to make computers second guess
human beings, are bound to create more problems than they will solve.
Eric
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 11:29:20 1995
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Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:17:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michelle Murrain
Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <199504120800.BAA29993@miles.greatcircle.com>
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On Wed, 12 Apr 1995 PMDAtropos@aol.com
> I'm afraid you've been duped, Michelle. The "Status" button is only available
> in the "Mail You've Sent" mailbox of AOL members. It only applies to those
> addresses who have specifically been included in the To: and CC: fields of a
> piece of outgoing mail, and only in the case of AOL members does it provide
> information (that being when the mail was read or ignored by the recipient).
> Internet addresses always show "not applicable", since we obviously cannot
> determine whether or not an Internet recipient has read a given piece of
> mail.
>
> The only way the list of subscribers can seen is if the entire list of
> subscribers is in the e-mail header.
Well, this is the response I got back from the AOL person who sent me the
original message (who I trust, by the way, and is an AOL host of sorts)
after I told them that someone from AOL said I was "duped":
--------------------------
you can tell that high muckety muck they can kiss my ass :)
right now, at this very instant i am logged on and the voice says "you've
got mail". i select "read new mail" from the mail menu and my mailbox
opens, showing me a list of all of my new mail. today, like most days it
is full of [listname] mail, NONE OF WHICH I HAVE SENT. the way the new
mail window looks on a mac is that you see the list of new mail and below
it, still within the new mail window, there are several buttons showing.
the buttons are: read, delete, status, keep as new and ignore.
if i select *any* one of the letters in my box and click the "status" button
i get a list of aol subscribers to [the list] and when they read
their mail. it is the same whether "i" sent the mail to [the list] or not.
for example. on 4/12/95 at 7:30am [someone@somwhere.universe] sent a
letter to [the list] entitled Slow Mo... when i selct that letter in my
mailbox (hi-lite it) and click the status button, this is what i see:
Addressee When Read
[a list follows of AOL screen names and times if the letter was read.]
------------------
A note. This mailing list is managed by SmartList, and the names on the
list ARE NOT in the To: or cc: headers!
So, what's up here? If individuals on the list do not want to be known to
others, this is a privacy issue. It turns out that my list is one big
happy family, and lots of folks already know one another (the
semi-privacy of the list is really to keep most people out). But for some
other lists, this could be a major issue. Of course most list management
software allows subscribers (and non-subscribers) to get the subscriber
lists. But I think it is important that list managers at least have some
sense of control over thier subscriber lists. As well, AOL is right now
the largest single service provider. (If this were netcom, or genie, etc,
for example it wouldn't be such an issue, since most of us have a very
few folks from these services. But AOL I think most lists have many AOL
folk).
Michelle
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. email and finger:
School of Natural Science mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu
Hampshire College mmurrain@family.hampshire.edu
Amherst, MA 01002
URL: http://www.hampshire.edu/Hampshire/ns/html/Murrain.html
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 12:27:29 1995
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From: Software Development
Message-Id: <199504121908.OAA19770@night.primate.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: best way to deliver large lists?
To: kevintx@fc.net (Kevin at Freeside Support)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:08:33 -0600 (CDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <199504120536.AAA05372@freeside.fc.net> from "Kevin at Freeside Support" at Apr 12, 95 00:36:34 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
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> Two of the lists here are (what I consider to be) particularly large
> ones.. 1500 to 2000 addresses each.. that have given me headaches from
> time to time. The mail queue gets large, running sendmail processes
> (though they seem to spend most of their time just sitting around) choke
> the system into swap, etc. There must be a better way..
>
> Does anyone here have suggestions for getting messages out to a large
> subscriber list (which invariably contains undeliverable addresses that
> seem to *drag* sendmail's delivery to the entire list down time after
> time) with a little more efficiency/brains than sendmail has wanted to do
> for me? I happen to use Majordomo 1.93 but I didn't consider this
> question to be Majordomo specific. Maybe some sendmail tweaking would
> help a lot. Some general things that I'd like to see..
I use Keith Moore's "bulk_mailer" program. It takes a list of addresses,
a message file, sorts the address list by domain, splits the list up
so that N domains appear in each section of addresses, and starts a sendmail
for each one.
This speeds up delivery time quite a bit because if you have connect to
a host that's slow to respond, you only slow down the portion of the address
list that's been assigned to that sendmail.
The downside, of course, is that you end up with lots of sendmails soon
after a message comes in. This can swamp a machine if you don't choose
wisely how many domains each section of the address list gets.
Paul DuBois
dubois@primate.wisc.edu
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 12:30:41 1995
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X-Organization:
RxNet, Inc.
Fresno, CA
800/447-9638
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu
From: Paul-Joseph de Werk
Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
X-Originating-Host: paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com
In-Reply-To:
Message-Id: <1995Apr12.115902-0700@paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com>
Date: 12 Apr 1995 11:58:55 -0700
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An ether being in cyberspace calling itself - Michelle Murrain - uttered:
|
| Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:17:59 -0400 (EDT)
| Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
[... text deleted ...]
| Well, this is the response I got back from the AOL person who sent me the
| original message (who I trust, by the way, and is an AOL host of sorts)
| after I told them that someone from AOL said I was "duped":
|
| --------------------------
| you can tell that high muckety muck they can kiss my ass :)
|
| right now, at this very instant i am logged on and the voice says "you've
| got mail". i select "read new mail" from the mail menu and my mailbox
| opens, showing me a list of all of my new mail. today, like most days it
| is full of [listname] mail, NONE OF WHICH I HAVE SENT. the way the new
| mail window looks on a mac is that you see the list of new mail and below
| it, still within the new mail window, there are several buttons showing.
| the buttons are: read, delete, status, keep as new and ignore.
|
| if i select *any* one of the letters in my box and click the "status" button
| i get a list of aol subscribers to [the list] and when they read
| their mail. it is the same whether "i" sent the mail to [the list] or not.
|
| for example. on 4/12/95 at 7:30am [someone@somwhere.universe] sent a
| letter to [the list] entitled Slow Mo... when i selct that letter in my
| mailbox (hi-lite it) and click the status button, this is what i see:
|
| Addressee When Read
|
| [a list follows of AOL screen names and times if the letter was read.]
|
| ------------------
It's like I stated before, When the *same* piece of email is sent to
multiple people on AOL. AOL places it in a shared area and tags it with
each of the users that it goes to, thus leaving only one copy of the
email on the system. What the status button does is display all the
names in that tag list.
In order to make it a private email the list server would need to send a
*separate* copy to each user on AOL. The drawback is that internet
traffic would increase, assuming multiple people per site, and the
system of the list server would bog down on sendmail processes, one per
each user in the list.
| A note. This mailing list is managed by SmartList, and the names on the
| list ARE NOT in the To: or cc: headers!
|
| So, what's up here? If individuals on the list do not want to be known to
| others, this is a privacy issue. It turns out that my list is one big
| happy family, and lots of folks already know one another (the
| semi-privacy of the list is really to keep most people out). But for some
| other lists, this could be a major issue. Of course most list management
| software allows subscribers (and non-subscribers) to get the subscriber
| lists. But I think it is important that list managers at least have some
| sense of control over thier subscriber lists. As well, AOL is right now
| the largest single service provider. (If this were netcom, or genie, etc,
| for example it wouldn't be such an issue, since most of us have a very
| few folks from these services. But AOL I think most lists have many AOL
| folk).
It's a design problem of AOL (hence I don't subscribe to them). Yes, it
is effiecient in disk storage, but having that *status* button breaks
any right to privacy. I'd complain to AOL to have the button removed
from the screen on the grounds of "Invasion of Privacy".
But, then again, I can easily get a list of subscribers off of several
listservers just by sending the right request. (Or by asking sendmail
on the list's system to expand the out-going alias). But at least it
isn't as simple as clicking on an icon.
#include
__________________________________________________________________________
[ Paul-Joseph de Werk, B.S. \ RX Net, Inc. ]
[ Systems Analyst II \ MIS Dept. ]
[ \ vrx: paul@av2.vrx.vhi.com ]
[ \ inet: paul%av2.vrx.vhi.com@vhipub.vhi.com ]
[_______________________________\__________________________________________]
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 12:58:32 1995
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Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:30:53 -0700
From: Bruce Perens
Message-Id: <199504121930.AA21056@bolero.rahul.net>
To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
From: Michelle Murrain
> Well, this is the response I got back from the AOL person who sent me the
> original message...
>
> i select "read new mail" from the mail menu and my mailbox
> opens, showing me a list of all of my new mail. today, like most days it
> is full of [listname] mail, NONE OF WHICH I HAVE SENT.
>
> if i select *any* one of the letters in my box and click the "status" button
> i get a list of aol subscribers to [the list] and when they read
> their mail. it is the same whether "i" sent the mail to [the list] or not.
There is a simple way to get around this. Make sure your list server generates
a message to one recepient ONLY for each AOL subscriber (or for each subscriber
if you have a small list).
It is simple for AOL to keep a list of all the names provided to the SMTP
"RCPT TO" command for a particular message. If you connect to AOL's SMTP
and say "RCPT TO: user1, user2, user3", they will be able to see each others
names. If you connect three times and say "RCPT TO: userN" each time, they
won't be able to tell each user about the other user's names.
Bruce Perens
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 13:03:53 1995
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From: tal@big.att.com (Tom Limoncelli)
Message-Id: <9504121943.AA26473@lexicon.info.att.com>
Subject: Re: best way to deliver large lists?
To: kevintx@fc.net (Kevin at Freeside Support)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:43:29 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: <199504120536.AAA05372@freeside.fc.net> from "Kevin at Freeside Support" at Apr 12, 95 00:36:34 am
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> Does anyone here have suggestions for getting messages out to a large
> subscriber list (which invariably contains undeliverable addresses that
> seem to *drag* sendmail's delivery to the entire list down time after
> time) with a little more efficiency/brains than sendmail has wanted to do
The standard answer to this question is, "Install Sendmail 8.x
because it does all the sorting, grouping, etc. that you can
imagine". Huge mailing lists suddenly use much less bandwidth
because of all of this.
If you have done this and are still seeing problems, ask your
question again with more details.
--tal
--
Tom Limoncelli -- tal@big.att.com (work) -- tal@plts.org (play)
"Good ideas are not adopted automatically. They must be driven into
practice with courageous impatience." --Admiral Hyman G. Rickover
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 13:10:16 1995
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To: Software Development
cc: kevintx@fc.net (Kevin at Freeside Support), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: best way to deliver large lists?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:08:33 MDT."
<199504121908.OAA19770@night.primate.wisc.edu>
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Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:50:27 -0400
Message-ID: <17964.797716227@yukon.cren.org>
From: Marco Hernandez
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> > Two of the lists here are (what I consider to be) particularly large
> > ones.. 1500 to 2000 addresses each.. that have given me headaches from
> > time to time. The mail queue gets large, running sendmail processes
> > (though they seem to spend most of their time just sitting around) choke
> > the system into swap, etc. There must be a better way..
> >
That's not large :-)
> > Does anyone here have suggestions for getting messages out to a large
> > subscriber list (which invariably contains undeliverable addresses that
> > seem to *drag* sendmail's delivery to the entire list down time after
> > time) with a little more efficiency/brains than sendmail has wanted to do
> > for me? I happen to use Majordomo 1.93 but I didn't consider this
> > question to be Majordomo specific. Maybe some sendmail tweaking would
> > help a lot. Some general things that I'd like to see..
>
I run several lists (some over 35k subscribers) using the commercial
listproc and ZMAILER as my mta. I've found though that the latest
sendmail seems to do OK if you have enough RAM on your machine.
What is enough ... 196+Meg for a large server would not be
unreasonable if you want good performance.
My limitted experience has shown me that Solaris (of SYSV) vs. SUNOS
is the better of the two under heavy sendmail loads. The problem I've
encountered with sendmail had to do with feeding it 110k recipeints in
the time span of 40 minutes. This cuased it to fork too many
processes and begin heavy paging/swapping. If the load is spread out,
it seems to do OK. It appeared that Solaris had a superior paging
subsystem and that made it hold it's own under heavy loads ...
One site/customer is using sendmail to manage over 850 lists for a
weekly total recipeints count of 1.4M.
> I use Keith Moore's "bulk_mailer" program. It takes a list of addresses,
> a message file, sorts the address list by domain, splits the list up
> so that N domains appear in each section of addresses, and starts a sendmail
> for each one.
>
Again, I think a good Mailing list manager will do this which makes
delivery a bit more efficient. Although there is a processing penalty
on the sending side, especially if the list of recipients is large and
very dynamic.
> This speeds up delivery time quite a bit because if you have connect to
> a host that's slow to respond, you only slow down the portion of the address
> list that's been assigned to that sendmail.
>
> The downside, of course, is that you end up with lots of sendmails soon
> after a message comes in. This can swamp a machine if you don't choose
> wisely how many domains each section of the address list gets.
>
Another way to do it is to control the number of recipeints per
sendmail invocation. If your Mailing List Manager can connect to the
localhost's sendmail and send it mail in groups of 100+ then you end
up with less overhead ...
i.e.
HELO localhost
Mail From:
RCPT To:
RCPT To:
.
.
.
and so on ...
/Marco
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 13:27:32 1995
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Message-Id:
From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira)
Subject: A frightening AOL thing...
To: paul%av2.vrx.vhi.com@vhipub.vhi.com (Paul-Joseph de Werk)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:07:16 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: <1995Apr12.115902-0700@paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com> from "Paul-Joseph de Werk" at Apr 12, 95 11:58:55 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Paul-Joseph wrote:
> I'd complain to AOL to have the button removed
> from the screen on the grounds of "Invasion of Privacy".
It does seem to primarily be an issue between AOL and the
customers for whom it provides this (dis-)service.
It also secondarily effects list managers, though. If any
are truly concerned, consider hacking your mail-handling
software to separately deliver copies of the message to each
AOL recipient, possibly with distinct Message-ID: headers
or something.
Of course this might defeat any attempt by AOL to save disk
space by storing only one copy of the message. On the other
hand, if they didn't fix the privacy issue (which I'm pretty
sure they will) they would deserve what they got....
Finally, AOL users who are truly concerned might consider
using a mail-forwarding address on another system, so that
list mail would first go elsewhere on the Internet, and
then get forwarded on to their AOL mailbox as a separate
message.
--
Sean Shapira sds@jazzie.com +1 206 443 2028
Sean's Home Page
Serving the Net since 1990.
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 13:57:54 1995
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From: PMDAtropos@aol.com
Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com
(1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA216168528; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 16:28:49 -0400
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 16:28:49 -0400
Message-Id: <950412162843_80915037@aol.com>
To: mpmns@hamp.hampshire.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In a message dated 95-04-12 14:37:15 EDT, mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:
>the way the new
>mail window looks on a mac is that you see the list of new mail and below
>it, still within the new mail window, there are several buttons showing.
>the buttons are: read, delete, status, keep as new and ignore.
AHA. This explains (most of) everything. I don't use my Mac very often, and
the "Status" button described to you does NOT show up on the Windows client
(which is what 75% of AOL members use). I checked by subbing to a list
briefly, and *some* of the AOL members of the list *did* get listed when I
clicked on Status (some = half a dozen, a small percentage of the total
number of AOL users subscribed to the list).
Why this is happening is beyond me, but it should not be there at all and
certainly should not be uncovering names of people! I will be bringing this
matter up with the Mail system and Mac Client people as soon as I send this
message out.
My apologies to you and your informant!
>So, what's up here? If individuals on the list do not want to be known to
>others, this is a privacy issue. [ ... ]
I agree; I run a list on which all members are "concealed", and this snafu
violates the privacy of the list. I don't know who implemented the change, or
when it was implemented, but I'm going to do my best to get it taken out
immediately.
--
__ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com)
\/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager
Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 - "The spam stops here."
Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 15:27:32 1995
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Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:24:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Behlendorf
To: Tom Limoncelli
cc: Kevin at Freeside Support , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM,
majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: best way to deliver large lists?
In-Reply-To: <9504121943.AA26473@lexicon.info.att.com>
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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
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On Wed, 12 Apr 1995, Tom Limoncelli wrote:
> > Does anyone here have suggestions for getting messages out to a large
> > subscriber list (which invariably contains undeliverable addresses that
> > seem to *drag* sendmail's delivery to the entire list down time after
> > time) with a little more efficiency/brains than sendmail has wanted to do
>
> The standard answer to this question is, "Install Sendmail 8.x
> because it does all the sorting, grouping, etc. that you can
> imagine". Huge mailing lists suddenly use much less bandwidth
> because of all of this.
Er, yes, it uses ESMTP, but you still have to do delivery to N domains,
and given that it takes an average of M seconds per domain (which
given a fat enough pipe doesn't vary with what else is going over
that pipe) that's N*M seconds to complete the job. A better solution is
to split up the lists into X well-balanced sublists, so that delivery
takes N*M/X seconds instead (modulo variations in delivery time based on
what heuristic you used to create those sublists). Sounds like that's
what bulk_mailer does.
Brian
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 19:27:30 1995
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Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 19:09:04 -0800
To: Roger Burns
From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #75
Cc: Peter Bowyer , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM,
mcb@GreatCircle.COM
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At 02:19 4/7/95, Roger Burns wrote:
>On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Peter Bowyer wrote:
>
>> No, I'm not being lazy by not changing the reply subject; I'm *really*
>>writing
>> a reply about last night's digest.
>>
>> It contained *no* on-top information whatsoever. None. Not a scrap.
>
>> Come on, List managers - this used to be a good, low-volume, high-quality
>> list. What can we do to restore it to its former glory?
>
>I'd like to see a hands-on list-manager be assigned to monitor this list
>daily and to notify posters when their messages are off-topic. Yes,
>moderation. If an appropriate volunteer were available to take on this
>responsibility, would Brent be willing to assign them to be the list-manager/
>moderator?
I've thought about it, and I've decided that I'm uncomfortable turning over
the list to somebody I don't know. So, I guess my answer is "it depends on
who it is".
One problem with moderation is that it's essentially a permanent decision,
and it's a big commitment on the part of the moderator. If you moderate a
list, people come to rely on it being moderated; if the moderator gets too
busy to deal with it, or goes out of town for a couple of weeks, or
something, the list suffers. Finding a replacement moderator, temporarily
or permanently, can be a big hassle.
All of the GreatCircle.COM lists currently follow an "occasionally
moderated" model. That is, they're normally unmoderated, but we moderate
them on a temporary basis when necessary in order to quench flame wars or
kill mailer loops.
Originally, I did all the moderation. As my tutorial and consulting
business grew (to the point where I'm now on the road 2-3 weeks each
month), I became unable to keep up with the load. I thought I'd solved
this problem by hiring Michael Berch on a part-time
basis to act as GreatCircle.COM's Postmaster, Majordomo-Owner, *-Approval,
and so forth. Now, however, Michael's other activities (in particular, his
launch of Infobahn magazine; see http://www.postmodern.com for details)
have reduced the amount of time he has available for me, and made it much
less regular (he can't do GreatCircle.COM work every day, the way he used
to), and the problem has come up again.
I don't think throwing another person at it (even a volunteer) is the right
answer; that merely postpones the problem, and ensures that we'll have to
address it again (and again and again) in the future. I'm not sure what
the right answer is, but I don't think that's it; it may, unfortunately, be
the best answer.
-Brent
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule
of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates
Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street
+1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 13 03:27:59 1995
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From: Peter Bowyer
Message-Id: <199504131025.LAA01502@insite.parasoft.co.uk>
Subject: Bulk_mailer?
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:25:22 +0200 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <199504130800.BAA22619@miles.greatcircle.com> from "list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Apr 13, 95 01:00:13 am
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>
> I use Keith Moore's "bulk_mailer" program. It takes a list of addresses,
> a message file, sorts the address list by domain, splits the list up
> so that N domains appear in each section of addresses, and starts a sendmail
> for each one.
This sounds really useful - where can it be found?
Peter
--
Peter Bowyer
peter@insite.parasoft.co.uk
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 13 13:56:50 1995
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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 23:30:24 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Marko Toivanen
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
cc: Michelle Murrain
Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing...
In-Reply-To: <199504120800.BAA29993@miles.greatcircle.com>
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On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Michelle Murrain wrote:
> I found out from a subscriber of one of my lists (the one with lots of
> AOL subscribers) that if one is reading mail from a mailing list, there
> is a button, apparently, called "status" which when pressed, gives a list
> of all of the subscribers to a list who are on AOL. When I first heard
> about this I got quite upset, because this list is supposed to be a
> semi-private list, and I was concerned that a non-subscriber could get
> hold of the subscribers from AOL. It turns out that you have to be sent
> mail from the list first, but I still see problematic aspects to it.
Actually, this may not be only an AOL problem (if it is). When I get
mail from a Bitnet list through a Bitnet node nearby, it puts a
"X-Envelope-To: " header having the addresses of the people on the list
from my site on it, which would be a problem if we didn't want each other
to know that we're on the list.
Marko
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Marko Toivanen * * * * * * * * * * co-moderator in FEYERABEND of
mtoivane@cc.joensuu.fi * * * * * * majordomo@lists.village.virginia.edu
http://www.joensuu.fi/~mtoivane/ * finger mtoivane@cc.joensuu.fi for info
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 13 22:56:37 1995
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From: Keith Moore
To: Peter Bowyer
cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu
Subject: Re: Bulk_mailer?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:25:22 +0200."
<199504131025.LAA01502@insite.parasoft.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 01:51:21 -0400
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> > I use Keith Moore's "bulk_mailer" program. It takes a list of
> > addresses, a message file, sorts the address list by domain, splits
> > the list up so that N domains appear in each section of addresses,
> > and starts a sendmail for each one.
> This sounds really useful - where can it be found?
look in ftp://cs.utk.edu/pub/moore/email/
for files bulk_mailer.{c,README,Makefile}
No warranty, but if people tell me about bugs I'll try to fix them.
One gotcha: if the message doesn't have a To: header, sendmail will
add an Apparently-To header for every address in the envelope.
(Someday I'll fix bulk_mailer to add a dummy To: header if one is
missing.)
Keith Moore
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 14 11:56:46 1995
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From: Kevin at Freeside Support
Message-Id: <199504141839.NAA03536@freeside.fc.net>
Subject: email file server?
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 13:39:40 -0500 (CDT)
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Can anyone suggest a good email file server? Seems like overkill to use
a mailing list program's file abilities when there isn't a list involved.
Please reply in email as this is off-topic for the list..
kevin
--
kevintx@fc.net support@fc.net Freeside Communications 512-339-6094
(providing quality Internet access and services in beautiful Austin, Texas)
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 14 12:28:18 1995
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From: Plyaskin Sergey
To: list-managers
Subject: RE: email file server?
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 95 15:22:00 PDT
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----------
From: list-managers-owner
To: list-managers
Subject: email file server?
Date: Friday, April 14, 1995 1:39PM
Can anyone suggest a good email file server? Seems like overkill to use
a mailing list program's file abilities when there isn't a list involved.
Please reply in email as this is off-topic for the list..
kevin
--
kevintx@fc.net support@fc.net Freeside Communications 512-339-6094
(providing quality Internet access and services in beautiful Austin, Texas)
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 14 12:31:50 1995
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From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin)
Subject: Re: Bulk_mailer?
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 14:05:49 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <199504140551.BAA10138@wilma.cs.utk.edu> from "Keith Moore" at Apr 14, 95 01:51:21 am
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Keith Moore wrote,
| (Someday I'll fix bulk_mailer to add a dummy To: header if one is
| missing.)
That's a precaution every mailing list and bulk mailer should take. I
scrapped (yes, `scrapped' with two p's is intentional) together my own method
for the lists I manage, and about three weeks ago someone sent an article to
one of them with no To: header. Everyone (except subscribers on the site
where it that list runs) received a complete detail of Apparently-To: headers
with all members' email addresses (again, except those on the site where the
list runs). No one complained about it, but I immediately corrected the
problem so that it wouldn't recur on either of my lists.
The emabarrassing part is that I had previously told another list manager
that lack of a To: header was the cause of the same problem when it had
happened on his list and told him that his MLM software should take care
of that situation.
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 14 13:27:12 1995
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From: Chip Rosenthal
Message-Id: <199504142015.PAA22346@chinacat.unicom.com>
Subject: Re: Bulk_mailer?
To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 15:15:54 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: from "David W. Tamkin" at Apr 14, 95 02:05:49 pm
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David W. Tamkin writes:
> and about three weeks ago someone sent an article to
> one of them with no To: header. Everyone (except subscribers on the site
> where it that list runs) received a complete detail of Apparently-To: headers
> with all members' email addresses
Wow...good point. [But what does this have to do with Mojordomo :-) :-)]
Was the problem a lack of To: header, or a lack of any of the RFC-822
recipient headers? RFC-822 says, for example, that a Cc: would be
legal and sufficient. (It also says Bcc: (even a blank one) would be
sufficient, but depending upon Bcc: handling is playing with fire.)
Also, since you said entire list, I assume it was your local transport
(sendmail?) that did this.
I've been thinking of modifying my (home grown) list redistributor to
reject messages missing a Subject:. I probably should add these
checks at the same time.
--
Chip Rosenthal "This world is full of creeps like me." -Lyle
Unicom Systems Development For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/
PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 14 13:56:48 1995
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Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 16:38:40 -0400
From: flash@FlashBack.COM (FlashBack)
Message-Id: <9504142038.AA00309@monday.FlashBack.COM>
To: dattier@wwa.com
Subject: Re: Bulk_mailer?
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
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what's the best format of a 'dummy' header to use when sending
bulk mail ?
I send mail to a mailing with a custom program. I use a Bcc: field
to refer to the 'batch' of receipients. I address the mail
to alias (which is not the real alias name). I get 1 message for
each 'batch'. Is there a mail header format that will
(a) not cause a message and (b) not cause the Apparently-To
fields to be generated ?
-johnj
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 14 15:26:51 1995
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From: Keith Moore
To: flash@flashback.com (FlashBack)
cc: dattier@wwa.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu
Subject: Re: Bulk_mailer?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Apr 1995 16:38:40 EDT."
<9504142038.AA00309@monday.FlashBack.COM>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 18:19:31 -0400
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> what's the best format of a 'dummy' header to use when sending
> bulk mail ?
I like to add:
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
It fulfills the RFC 822 requirement, and fools sendmail into not
generating the Apparently-To header.
Some sendmail configs will (incorrectly) try to rewrite the address,
but that doesn't usually cause problems. (And when it does, it only
causes problems for sites downstream from the broken mailer).
Keith Moore
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 14 16:28:27 1995
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id AA797798478 Thu, 13 Apr 95 11:41:18 EST
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 11:41:18 EST
From: jmeritt@smtpinet.aspensys.com (Meritt, Jim)
Message-Id: <9503137977.AA797798478@smtpinet.aspensys.com>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: HELP!!!! trouble starting list
content-length: 666
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I have the listproc 6.0c, and it has been working fine. Yesterday I
added a new list to the configure and added a couple of lines to the
owners file and used the src/start -k and src/start, just like always.
And instead of taking off and making the needed directories & files
for the new list it (apparently) did nothing. And now NONE of the
lists are up, and the listproc isn't even up to answer the simple
queries (like lists).
Can someone advise? REAL soon? i.e. HHHHEEEEELLLLLLLPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!
Jim Meritt
(heck - it was just about to the point of being able to ignore it.
dang!)
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 14 18:56:49 1995
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From: Keith Moore
cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Bulk_mailer?
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 21:47:27 -0400
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Okay, I hacked my bulk_mailer program to add a
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
header to any message which lacks a To, Cc, or Bcc header. More general
header-munging would be nice, but probably goes in a separate program.
ftp://cs.utk.edu/pub/moore/email/bulk_mailer.*
--
Keith Moore http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/
Computer Science Dept. / Univ of Tenn / 107 Ayres Hall / Knoxville TN 37996
From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 15 05:56:39 1995
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Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 05:52:30 -0800
To: Peter Bowyer
From: Dave Del Torto
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #75
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
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A while back at 11:53 PM on 4/5/95, Peter Bowyer wrote:
>Come on, List managers - this used to be a good, low-volume, high-quality
>list. What can we do to restore it to its former glory?
I suggest an X-Header in every msg sent out by the MLM softwre that
announces that this list is only for topics about List-Management NOT
Majordomo-specific questions.
How does that idea grab you folks? I can filter out those headers when it
read it, but maybe it would bug some-a youse. On the other hand, if it does
something to keep the list on-topic, maybe it's worth the header noise...
dave (just catching up on my list mail after a short vacation :)
From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 15 07:26:41 1995
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Date: Sat, 15 Apr 95 17:04:56 -0400
From: pr93018@ulise.cs.pub.ro (Daniel Mocanu)
Message-Id: <9504152104.AA19366@ulise.cs.pub.ro>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Hi to you !
We are two students from Romania and we are going to
present you our situation.
We are students at the "Politehnica" University in Bucharest
Romania (Eastern Europe), the Computer Science Department.
Our common hobby is the computer programming and we are
here asking for your help.
We work very late : the situation here for us is critical;
the computers we work on are some IBM PS/2 (80286) that doesn't have
any hard disk (believe it-we have to live with it!).
To compile a C++ program we have to wait minutes ! I don't
want to mention Windows ! There are a lot of nights we have spent
in one of our University rooms. ( I am scared to think how many)
and this is because we can't have a computer of our own!
Now look why we are asking for your help:
in your country computers like 80286 or 80386 are out of use for
long time now , but we cannot afford such things here.
If you have such a computer and you want to give it away
or you know somebody who have such a computer (please contact him!)
and want to get rid of it we are asking desperately for your help!
The way we are communicating with you is a real miracle:
we have here a machine with access in Internet and for a year
we had tried to get an account.
Please respond us (whatever your response is) to:
pr93018@ulise.cs.pub.ro
or
pr93026@ulise.cs.pub.ro
Yours,
Daniel Mocanu Lica Laurentiu
Energiei Str.,No.34,Sc.D,Ap.11 Eroilor Str.,No.32
Bacau 5500 , ROMANIA Curtea de Arges 0450,ROMANIA
______________________________________________________________________________
From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 15 10:56:46 1995
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From: "Alan Millar"
Organization: The Bolis Group
To: Dave Del Torto , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 09:29:00 -800
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> I suggest an X-Header in every msg sent out by the MLM softwre that
> announces that this list is only for topics about List-Management NOT
> Majordomo-specific questions.
It seems to me that most of the Majordomo-specific questions or
similar off-topic questions come from people who are not regular
readers of the list, and quite often by their own admission aren't
even subscribers to list-managers.
IMHO Changing the list to accept postings only from list members will
probably be the most effective. I have found that on the lists I
run, allowing postings only from subscribers takes care of most of
the "junk" postings. It catches off-topic random postings, spams,
and misc. administrivia requests. (I usually have a file of a few
"extra" addresses allowed also, for the few minor exceptions).
- Alan
----
Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org
System Administrator Web: http://metro.turnpike.net/metro/amillar
From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 16 17:26:52 1995
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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 00:59:00 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman)
Subject: The natural life of mailing lists.
Cc: mcb@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Picked up off the net; thought it might be of interest here.
I'd say "List-Managers" is somewhere about stage 6b, with occasional
flirtations with 5 and 6a... :-)
-Brent
--- begin forwarded text
Forwarded-by: cgw@io.com (christopher williams)
Forwarded-by: Mark S. Bailen
Forwarded-by: Friese Greg
[author unknown]
THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS
Every list seems to go through the same cycle:
1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush alot about
how wonderful it is to find kindred souls).
2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list,
and brainstorm recruitment strategies).
3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads
develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up).
4. Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of
information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as
well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease
each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience;
everyone -- newbie and expert alike -- feels comfortable asking
questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions).
5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases
dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people
start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens
to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet
topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten
up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than
is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed).
6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks
an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies
are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor
issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are
limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time
self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic
threads off the list).
OR
6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants
stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks;
many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list
lives contentedly ever after).
--- end forwarded text
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule
of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates
Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street
+1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041
From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 16 17:56:42 1995
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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Behlendorf
To: "Donn F. Davy"
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Filter off-topic msgs
In-Reply-To:
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On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Donn F. Davy wrote:
> I wonder if reg exps is enough to filter out off-topic stuff. This
> appears to me to be a _very_ key need in online communications of all
> sorts, not just mailing lists: i.e. since there is an overwhelming amount
> of material of _potential_ interest out there, itself hidden in a torrent
> of less interesting stuff, most everyone needs agents with the savvy to
> figure out what I want and get the good stuff.
It's really going to be a long time, if ever, before an algorithm can be
devised which efficiently determines some coefficient of what "user X" might
like of a piece of content comprised of words and other media. What *will*
work, and what works informally today, is a system of inference - one where
you filter information based on the subjective ratings given that content by
users you trust. "Collaborative filtering" will let you say "I trust Donn's
and Brent's opinions of what where good posts on list-managers, so highlight
every post that they gave a good rating to". Mail, news, and WWW user agents
that make it easy to attach seals of approval to content will come into play
as soon as the protocols support it (actually, it's a chicken-and-egg
syndrome - what we need are some large-scale tests of this thesis).
That, at least, is what I'll use to determine the "good stuff" :)
Brian
From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 16 19:56:44 1995
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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 10:10:53 +0800 (SST)
From: Adrian Ho
Subject: Posting Filters
To: Alan Millar
Cc: Dave Del Torto , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To:
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On Sat, 15 Apr 1995, Alan Millar wrote:
> IMHO Changing the list to accept postings only from list members will
> probably be the most effective. I have found that on the lists I
> run, allowing postings only from subscribers takes care of most of
> the "junk" postings. It catches off-topic random postings, spams,
> and misc. administrivia requests. (I usually have a file of a few
> "extra" addresses allowed also, for the few minor exceptions).
That would work for everyone except subscribers going through local list
exploders, which I've heard being widely trumpeted as A Good Thing. Were
this to happen, people subscribed through list exploders would not be able
to post anymore, unless the local MTA could be configured to rewrite the
From: address to the local exploder address, *based on the To: address*.
If the local list exploder were a simple sendmail-style alias, doing this
would be Very Difficult Indeed. If the exploder were itself a list
manager (eg. Maj*rd*m* 8-), it would have to do two things:
(1) Rewrite the To: address of all incoming list mail to point to the
exploder itself, to ensure that replies to all receipients go by default
to the exploder rather than to the main list.
(2) Rewrite the From: address of all outgoing list mail to point to the
exploder, so that it passes the main list filter check.
>From what I've seen, this will require patches to all the list managers I
know of. It may also violate some principles of good list management that
I don't know about. 8-)
In summary, this filtering of incoming list traffic seems to cause
problems for those local administrators who choose to reduce general list
traffic by operating local exploders -- unless they choose to put even
more work into their exploders.
Am I way off base, or is the above essentially correct?
- Adrian Ho
IT Architect, Infrastructure Group
NII Division, National Computer Board
Singapore
Internet: adrianho@nii.ncb.gov.sg
From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 16 20:56:46 1995
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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 20:24:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Donn F. Davy"
Subject: Re: Filter off-topic msgs
To: Brian Behlendorf
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To:
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> It's really going to be a long time, if ever, before an algorithm can be
> devised which efficiently determines some coefficient of what "user X" might
> like of a piece of content comprised of words and other media. What *will*
> work, and what works informally today, is a system of inference - one where
> you filter information based on the subjective ratings given that content by
> users you trust. "Collaborative filtering" will let you say "I trust Donn's
> and Brent's opinions of what where good posts on list-managers, so highlight
> every post that they gave a good rating to". Mail, news, and WWW user agents
> that make it easy to attach seals of approval to content will come into play
> as soon as the protocols support it (actually, it's a chicken-and-egg
> syndrome - what we need are some large-scale tests of this thesis).
>
> That, at least, is what I'll use to determine the "good stuff" :)
> Brian
>
I wonder if the development of a neural-net with on-going training, in
combination with your "approval seals" by "respected peers" might not
provide a high-enough yield of "the good stuff" that its use would become
widespread. The training could include records of what was accessed,
by whom, working as a sort of trail-marking, so a "seal of
approval" would not have to be an active process, but formed simply in
the act of access itself.
Thanks for your thought-provoking comment.
-
Donn
From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 16 21:56:47 1995
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Message-Id:
From: "Alan Millar"
Organization: The Bolis Group
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 20:36:46 -800
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Subject: Re: Posting Filters
Priority: normal
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> From: Adrian Ho
> On Sat, 15 Apr 1995, Alan Millar wrote:
> > IMHO Changing the list to accept postings only from list members will
> > probably be the most effective. I have found that on the lists I
> > run, allowing postings only from subscribers takes care of most of
> > the "junk" postings. It catches off-topic random postings, spams,
> > and misc. administrivia requests. (I usually have a file of a few
> > "extra" addresses allowed also, for the few minor exceptions).
>
> That would work for everyone except subscribers going through local list
> exploders, which I've heard being widely trumpeted as A Good Thing. Were
> In summary, this filtering of incoming list traffic seems to cause
> problems for those local administrators who choose to reduce general list
> traffic by operating local exploders -- unless they choose to put even
> more work into their exploders.
>
> Am I way off base, or is the above essentially correct?
Yes, your summary is correct. The possible exception would be the
philosophical question of whether or not local exploders really are
a Good Thing, but that's a different discussion :-)
I have few, if any, local exploders on my lists so I overlooked
their impact. Thanks for pointing it out.
One thing I do is keep a list of extra addresses to allow to post
for situations like this. I'll commit the list-managers heresy of
mentioning a majordomo-specific config, but I do this in the
majordomo 1.93 config file with:
restrict_post = listname:listname-digest:listname.extra
If you have many local exploders, this would be a pain to maintain,
but with only a few it is not bad.
- Alan
----
Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org
System Administrator Web: http://metro.turnpike.net/metro/amillar
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 17 00:56:40 1995
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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 15:08:42 +0800 (SST)
From: Adrian Ho
Subject: Re: Posting Filters
To: Alan Millar
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To:
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On Sun, 16 Apr 1995, Alan Millar wrote:
> One thing I do is keep a list of extra addresses to allow to post
> for situations like this. I'll commit the list-managers heresy of
> mentioning a majordomo-specific config, but I do this in the
> majordomo 1.93 config file with:
> restrict_post = listname:listname-digest:listname.extra
> If you have many local exploders, this would be a pain to maintain,
> but with only a few it is not bad.
I may be missing something here, but I don't quite see how the above
solves the local exploder problem. Since you're (presumably) filtering on
the From: line, wouldn't you still have to know who's on the exploder
distribution list?
One possible remedy is to filter on just the domain part of the From:
line, assuming you've identified which domains sport local exploders for
your list. It's not very accurate, but I suppose it should suffice for
most purposes.
- Adrian Ho
IT Architect, Infrastructure Group
NII Division, National Computer Board
Singapore
Internet: adrianho@nii.ncb.gov.sg
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 17 01:27:54 1995
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Message-Id: <199504170812.AA29207@bolero.rahul.net>
To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Posting Filters
In-Reply-To:
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 95 01:12:56 -0700
From: Michelle Dick
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Adrian wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Apr 1995, Alan Millar wrote:
> > One thing I do is keep a list of extra addresses to allow to post
> > for situations like this. I'll commit the list-managers heresy of
> > mentioning a majordomo-specific config, but I do this in the
> > majordomo 1.93 config file with:
> > restrict_post = listname:listname-digest:listname.extra
> > If you have many local exploders, this would be a pain to maintain,
> > but with only a few it is not bad.
>
> I may be missing something here, but I don't quite see how the above
> solves the local exploder problem. Since you're (presumably) filtering on
> the From: line, wouldn't you still have to know who's on the exploder
> distribution list?
Correct, but folks who want to post (generally a small fraction of
readers, especially for large lists with exploders) ever want to post.
They tell you what their address is and you add it. This also works
for folks who are subscribed under one address and want to post via
another.
SmartList (another mailing list package) also has provisions for
maintenance of a second list of addresses approved for posting.
--
Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA
Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 17 02:57:16 1995
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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 02:31:17 -0800
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: agoodloe@best.com (Amy Goodloe/Women Online)
Subject: Re: Posting Filters
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 8:36 PM 4/16/95, Alan Millar wrote:
>Yes, your summary is correct. The possible exception would be the
>philosophical question of whether or not local exploders really are
>a Good Thing, but that's a different discussion :-)
>
>I have few, if any, local exploders on my lists so I overlooked
>their impact. Thanks for pointing it out.
Is there a way to tell, just by looking at who's subscribed to your list,
whether or not any of them are "local exploder" addresses? All of my lists
are closed and are restricted to certain people -- but I suppose they could
be being "exploded" somewhere without my knowledge. Is that the case? Is
there any way to avoid this???
--Amy
+:-:+-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+:-:+
Amy T. Goodloe Director, Women Online, San Francisco CA
agoodloe@best.com Internet and Macintosh Consulting Services for Women
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Lists moderated: internet-women-info, internet-women-help, iw-volunteers
women-online-news, lesbian-studies, ba-cyberdykes, lesac-net
URL: http://www.best.com/~agoodloe/home.html
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 17 12:14:08 1995
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From: Software Development
Message-Id: <199504171904.OAA17696@night.primate.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Bulk_mailer?
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 14:04:04 -0600 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <199504140551.BAA10138@wilma.cs.utk.edu> from "Keith Moore" at Apr 14, 95 01:51:21 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
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> > This sounds really useful - where can it be found?
>
> look in ftp://cs.utk.edu/pub/moore/email/
> for files bulk_mailer.{c,README,Makefile}
>
> No warranty, but if people tell me about bugs I'll try to fix them.
>
> One gotcha: if the message doesn't have a To: header, sendmail will
> add an Apparently-To header for every address in the envelope.
> (Someday I'll fix bulk_mailer to add a dummy To: header if one is
> missing.)
I've made some slight changes to this program to allow it to accept
the number of domains per sendmail invocation from the command line,
and to allow the default domain (for addresses that are missing one)
and the sendmail command to be parameterized in the Makefile.
If anyone wants the changes I can mail them.
Paul DuBois
dubois@primate.wisc.edu
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 17 16:14:22 1995
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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 15:56:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Behlendorf
To: Brent Chapman
cc: "Donn F. Davy" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Filter off-topic msgs
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On Mon, 17 Apr 1995, Brent Chapman wrote:
> At 17:43 4/16/95, Brian Behlendorf wrote:
> >"Collaborative filtering" will let you say "I trust Donn's
> >and Brent's opinions of what where good posts on list-managers, so highlight
> >every post that they gave a good rating to".
>
> Sure, no problem, as long as you're willing to wait a few days or weeks for
> me to get around to reading it sometimes... :-)
Of course - but there will be those who will, by virtue of being
"recognized", want to filter it every day as they know their filtering
work is appreciated. In fact there may be those who are willing to sell
their streams of seals of approval for a small fee...
Ecology of information, anyone?
Brian
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 17 16:16:57 1995
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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 23:47:10 +0000
To: Brian Behlendorf ,
"Donn F. Davy"
From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Filter off-topic msgs
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
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At 17:43 4/16/95, Brian Behlendorf wrote:
>"Collaborative filtering" will let you say "I trust Donn's
>and Brent's opinions of what where good posts on list-managers, so highlight
>every post that they gave a good rating to".
Sure, no problem, as long as you're willing to wait a few days or weeks for
me to get around to reading it sometimes... :-)
-Brent
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule
of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates
Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street
+1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 17 18:43:41 1995
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From: "Alan Millar"
Organization: The Bolis Group
To: agoodloe@best.com (Amy Goodloe/Women Online),
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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 17:03:13 -800
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> >Yes, your summary is correct. The possible exception would be the
> >philosophical question of whether or not local exploders really are
> >a Good Thing, but that's a different discussion :-)
> Is there a way to tell, just by looking at who's subscribed to your list,
> whether or not any of them are "local exploder" addresses? All of my lists
> are closed and are restricted to certain people -- but I suppose they could
> be being "exploded" somewhere without my knowledge. Is that the case? Is
> there any way to avoid this???
There is no way to know for certain. If you see a list member
address whose local part is the same as your list name, that's
probably a dead giveaway. Of if you see submissions from one or
more people at particular domain, who aren't members, that may be a
clue. There are other gimmicks to try, such as SMTP VRFY, but such
things only occaisionally help. There really is no definitive way to
know for sure.
You can set it in policy up front, saying "no local exploders
allowed", and threaten violators with removal from the list. This
is done by other list ownerss currently. Peer pressure seems to be
the most effective in the long run.
- Alan
----
Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org
System Administrator Web: http://metro.turnpike.net/metro/amillar
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 17 18:49:00 1995
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From: "Alan Millar"
Organization: The Bolis Group
To: Adrian Ho , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 16:54:52 -800
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> > One thing I do is keep a list of extra addresses to allow to post
> > for situations like this.
> > If you have many local exploders, this would be a pain to maintain,
> > but with only a few it is not bad.
> I may be missing something here, but I don't quite see how the above
> solves the local exploder problem. Since you're (presumably) filtering on
> the From: line, wouldn't you still have to know who's on the exploder
> distribution list?
Sorry, I wasn't clear. You are right, my solution does not
explicitly automatically allow all members of the local exploder to
post to the list. It only creates a facility where you can decided
to add *by hand* any members of a local exploder to the "extra"
list, so that in the future they can post unimpeded.
In practice, I find that on my lists there are far fewer posters
than readers, so I wouldn't need to add all of the exploder members,
only the few regular posters.
Also, in practice, I find that most of bounced non-member
submissions I get are pretty obvious right away whether they are
relevant on-topic messages or just plain junk. Your mileage may
vary. If they look on-topic, I usually just approve them. If I see
an address recurring regularly, I assume it is from an exploder or a
list member's alternative address, and add it to the "extra" file.
Other list owners may not wish to operate this way. If it turns out
that I approved their on-topic message but they really aren't list
members, I don't care. If they don't see the replies because they
aren't subscribers, too bad. (I mightnote that I don't approve
non-member messages if they say "please reply directly because I'm
not a member"; I send them the subscription info file instead).
> One possible remedy is to filter on just the domain part of the From:
> line, assuming you've identified which domains sport local exploders for
> your list. It's not very accurate, but I suppose it should suffice for
> most purposes.
One of the reasons I like to limit postings to members is to filter
out non-delivery notices (NDN's) from gatewayed mail systems that
send their notices to the From: or Reply-To: address instead of the
envelope sender.
From: Oddball Administrator
To: entire list instead of sender
Subject: could not deliver to bozo-net
You know what I mean... :-)
In my experience, I would include gateways to local news groups or
local conferencing systems in the exploder category, and it seems to
me that these sorts of gateways are more often the offenders in
sending NDN's to the wrong place. In other words, such exploders
are more likely to be bad NDN senders than non-exploders.
The key here is that the problem is caught and mail loop avoided if
the sender of the NDN ("admin@bozo.net" in my example, or sometimes
Postmaster or Mailer-Daemon) is NOT a member of the list, and not
allowed to post. Filtering on domain-only would not catch these
problems.
It depends on how much you worry about such an occurance happening.
If you haven't had a problem like that, be glad :-) I had some nasty
cleanup after a weekend of mail loops because of one of these
problems, and several *caught and avoided* after I closed the
list to members-only.
- Alan
----
Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org
System Administrator Web: http://metro.turnpike.net/metro/amillar
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 17 22:43:26 1995
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