Thursday, February 14, 2013

DL has a question concerning the apparent absence of Old Testament miracles:

I would like to say that I have been reading your blog for over half a year, maybe a little bit longer now. You write about a lot stuff that I have thought for years, it has just given me the evidence and confidence to speak my opinions besides just sitting quietly by while people say stuff I don't really agree with.

The point of this email is to ask your opinion on a problem I came across during a debate I was having with a friend over the existence of God. This debate has been going on for a while and slowly the tides is turning from him controlling the debate to about a mutual battlefield. The idea of God being omniderigent really put a cap over some of his arguments.

Things were going ok until I was asked the question of "Why doesn't God do any of the big miracles that he did in the bible today?" What he meant by this is the parting of the Red Sea, destroying a city with fire, and raising people from the dead. I was unable to come up with a completely logical solution for this question. I done some research on apologetic websites on why God would do this and the answers are a little unsatisfactory and doesn't really answer the question in a logical way.

I would think the answer is fairly obvious. First, God clearly does miracles for specific reasons. Consider the repeated response of the Israeli people to His miracles; they kept returning to their false idols and their evil ways, and rejected Him for an earthly king. Why would it surprise anyone if He stopped bothering to intervene on their behalf when they repeatedly turned their backs on Him after witnessing them? Jesus himself had the people turn on him despite his miracles and even pointed out that people would not believe regardless of what they had seen with their own eyes.

Second, what would the point of any such divine miracles be? The Bible makes it clear that there will those who believe without seeing, and Richard Dawkins makes it clear that even if God Himself appears and tells him that he is wrong about His existence, he will not believe.

When X doesn't happen, the correct question is not "why did X not happen?" but "why does X happen and is there reason to have expected it to happen in the first place?"

407 Comments:

Old Testament looks like it is full of miracles because it is thousands of years worth of time condensed into those scrolls, and it is specifically about the times when God acts. For example in Babylonian captivity, 400 years of nothing happening are simply skipped over. That's several lifetimes of people probably asking the exact same question.

People often think that God performed miracles to prove Himself. This is not the case.

Miracles do not create believers. The old testament is clear enough on that but we have countless examples more contemporary.

God intervenes in various point of history for various reasons to set events in motion. Determining why would be rather like ants trying to decide why some ant hills are mysteriously poisoned and others are not.

"Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:29-31)

Fact is, miracles aren't really meant to "convince" anyone, and God knows that they probably won't - people in rebellion will always find a way to discount anything they see, no matter how unexplainable or miraculous. This may not be a "logically satisfactory" answer, but it is true nevertheless.

Miracles were done, more than anything else, to openly demonstrate that God's power (and therefore authority) was vested in the one being enabled to perform the miracles. Though people have this impression that the Bible is just one miracle after another, really it's not. You only see three times where miracles were really prevalent: With Moses and Joshua, with Elijah and Elisha, and with Jesus and His apostles. In each case, God's man used for a specific purpose, and then the immediate follower(s) of said man/Godman.

A good example is the feeding of the 5000 in John 6. Afterwords the crowd first started to follow Jesus to get a free meal, then they wanted to know how he got across the lake so quickly, then finally upped the ante and said that Jesus needed to out perform Abraham for them to believe. There's no indication that they denied the miracles they saw with their own eyes, instead they acknowledged them as having happened but still didn't believe or at least were focused on the wrong things.

I think God did miracles originally, for one, to get past the whole "is He really God" thing. He would keep referring to Himself as the God who "brought you out of Egypt" with mighty miracles and such to constantly reaffirm His identity and remind people that He really was God. If He didn't do anything, it's doubtful Israel would have believed in Him as much as they did, so doing a few huge things that couldn't possibly not be because of "God" kind of eliminated the question of Him actually being real. I don't recall seeing many "big" miracles in the later OT, though, as His identity was established.

In the NT, Jesus did a bunch of miracles perhaps for the same reason, in part. He was establishing Himself as God once again and getting the entire "is this really the Messiah" question out of the way. Now, we have all those miracles recorded for our use and so we have the identities squared away. We can choose to accept or reject those witnessed events and make our own decisions. People only come to God when he draws them anyway (and I don't mean that in the strict traditionalist Calvinist way), and he wants people of faith, so He is not doing the huge miracles now.

At least, that we know of. I've heard of smaller miracles being done and all that, but haven't personally seen them. We have no idea what God could be doing if He's not announcing His actions. One of us could have been killed driving to work today, except that the car that would have crashed into us instead got stopped at a light or the driver was made to slow down a bit to cause the entire thing to be avoided. I can't say either way so I leave it at God can and will do what He wants but I can't determine what that may be.

Why do people expect that they, personally, would be witness to any miracles occurring today? The world is a big place. There could be a thousand miracles happening every day without me, personally, knowing about it. Maybe you guys have sources I don't. And don't say the media, because there are tons of stories reported of miracles, and no one believes them. I don't know that I can accept the premise that miracles aren't happening in this age, although I'll readily admit that I haven't personally witnessed any that I recognized as such.

I don't know that I can accept the premise that miracles aren't happening in this age, although I'll readily admit that I haven't personally witnessed any that I recognized as such.

I've prayed for a cancer patient and felt the tumor disappear. I've seen a cloudy eye opened (healed of cataracts). Many have seen far greater things than I have seen, including people raised from the dead and limbs lengthened.

I think it's more interesting to ask why God apparently talked directly to people a lot in ancient times, but in modern times, not so much.

Think about it from the perspective of a Jew at the end of Babylonian captivity. His evidence for God would have been that something happened 400 years ago, according to some stories. That's like around 1600 AD for us. I'm sure we could find some interesting stories from that time too. But would they satisfy us?

The Old Testament aside, it seems perfectly obvious that miracles actually would create believers, but what is more than likely here is that miracles don’t actually happen and have never happened, even during the time periods covered by the Old (and New) Testament.

"I also noticed a telling pattern in the Old Testament accounts: the very clarity of God's will had a stunting effect on the Israelites' faith. Why pursue God when he had already revealed himself so clearly? Why step out in faith when God had already guaranteed the results? In short, why should the Israelites act like adults when they could act like children."

"God did not play hide and seek with the Israelites; they had every proof of his existence you could ask for. but astonishingly - and I could hardly believe this result, God's directness seemed to produce the very opposite of the desired effect. Not worship and love but fear and open rebellion."

Disappointment with God - P. Yancey - pp 46-48

What is clear is that in the O.T. it was often the case that God's visible presence did nothing to improve or create lasting faith. Even today I believe that the kind of faith that miraculous events may create is not the kind of faith God is looking for.

I'm sure we could find some interesting stories from that time too. But would they satisfy us?

No, and it's not like God talked to every Jew, either. All I read is that He talked to certain people (the prophets) and they told people what He said. I'm sure it was pretty easy for many Jews to just blow some guy off or, even if they respected him as a prophet, figure that he might've just heard something wrong or is adding his own bias to something. The Jews seemed to go off track pretty fast a lot of times.

Usually miracles have the purpose of confirming the messenger. This all came to its height with Jesus because He is the Message. He is the Word. He is the final perfect revelation of God's love. There has been and will be no more prophets because nothing else needs to be revealed. That is why the words of the Apostles were so important. They spoke first hand as witnesses to the Word among us. When they passed on, that was the end of what would be revealed.

Miracles also happen to encourage particular people. And these miracles happen all the time but are rarely documented or document-able. But occasionally someone will recover miraculously from something or may see some kind of vision that is more or less for them alone. God does as he pleases in our lives often to prompt us to do what he has planned for us. No one else need even believe in these miracles because they don't reveal anything new. They simply confirm the One who has come and who may soon will return.

It is funny how we think that God is no longer performing massive miracles (massive to us). We don't really know for sure.

The American church feels pretty self-reliant, rather than trusting God. We have one side of the church that is focused so much on the miracles, setting up healing ministries, etc., and I'm highly skeptical of that side. We have another side that is focused on all things end times prophecy, and then another that seems to care only about tradition.

What gives me joy is seeing God work in the hearts of men. That's a miracle to me. And yes, it would be cool to see someone raised from the dead, but I'm afraid it would be pure entertainment for me.

Jesus: verse 31 "But Abraham said, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.'"

People tend to interpret evidence from their worldview. If a miracle happened, an atheist would interpret it according to his worldview, and since (according to his worldview) miracles do not happen, then it has a materialistic explanation.

Miracles can be so esoteric at times too. I know little about physics. I fell asleep early one morning in a little Chevy Cavalier with cruise control on 75 and rear-ended an oil field 18 wheel tanker truck turning left. The car was totaled and crushed with most all glass broken. Yet the driver side door would still open and I stepped out and everyone there thought they were seeing a ghost. They thought there was no way I was alive (not a scratch).

Then a funny thing is the DPS trooper called in my drivers license and said it had been suspended. I said no way! Any way with out cuffs he put me in the front seat of his car and took me to the JP who set bond at 500 dollars. There was a glitch in their computer but they did not know. So when they took me down to be booked at the county jail he asked me to empty my pockets.

I gave him my wallet and keys then reached into my coat pocket and pulled out my rosary beads I forgot were in there, and he smiled. I paid the bond without being put in jail and he let me go. Now, was that for me, or him or his partner to see a miracle in real time.

The news paper only talked of my arrest and never retracted the story after the DPS officer called me the next morning and apologized. So to the world it looked like I was driving around with a suspended license, but there were three people and who know; who else saw or heard about what really happened.

"The Old Testament aside, it seems perfectly obvious that miracles actually would create believers, but what is more than likely here is that miracles don’t actually happen and have never happened, even during the time periods covered by the Old (and New) Testament. "

The fact that you believe this indicates a severe lack of observational skills as well as an almost total ignorance of human psychology.

Humans interpret what they see through their own special world view filter. Think of paleontologists... if they were to find a rabbit in the pre-cambrian.. what would they conclude?

So when non-believers see real miracles... they do not register as miracles. They simply are explained away.

Nnon-believe has nothing to do with skepticism and everything to do with rebellion. Because it is rebellion... evidence is not enough.

The Miracles officially finished in 2011, when Bobby Rogers quit the touring circuit because of his bad health. But hey, they were the greatest of Motown's legacy, and there's a lot to be said for that.

The word prophetes in Eph. 4:11 is used in the sense of someone who expounds, explains, and preaches the Word of God with an intent towards helping his hearers have a greater understanding of it.

In fact, that is actually the PRIMARY meaning of that word in the Greek - the use of prophetes in extra-biblical Greek literature primarily describes someone who would interpret and expound on oracles in the Greek religious system. The appearance of this word in the NT nearly always has this same sense, except for referring to the Scriptures as the "oracles" (Romans 3:2) being explained.

Indeed, even in the OT, most of what we refer to as "prophecy" isn't so much concerned with "wowwing" people about events going to take place thousands of years in the future as it is with making application of the Word of God in the present day, with the extended hope of God's fulfillment of His promises in the indefinite future (the "present-future dual interpretation"). So yes, the things we call "prophecy" in the OT WERE predictive, but that was not the "primary" purpose for them.

Josh; forgive me, but I have no idea if it did or not. Internet Josh’s word does not constitute evidence. Also, if it did disappear, I have no idea if it did it so “by itself”. You must admit, tumors are known to disappear…

There is more to the miracle question than levels of evidence. If you accept as a prior assumption that the laws of nature are absolute and unbreakable, but also not entirely known to man, then any anomaly (e.g. a miracle) can only have happened according to these natural processes, even if you don't yet know how this is possible.

On the other hand, if you accept that God exists and that the laws of nature are not absolute but are dependent on His will, then a miracle is tolerable because the only reason natural law works at all is because God made it work in the first place. Natural processes, from this point of view, are just God exercising His will in an unecessarily long and roundabout way. If you accept that God created the Universe out of nothing with a word, then it's a small step indeed to accept that He multiplied a few loaves and fishes into many.

God didn't just do his miracles. He did it for a specific audience that he spoke to. I don't think he will speak to atheists in general. He will not do his tricks for them.

Anyways, we are beyond the Old Testament. Any miracles must be in the New Testament context. Haven't the unbelievers put all New Testament miracles to a vote and declared them false? It would seem that Jesus' Resurrection is a big miracle. The next miracle is Jesus' return.

I thought the thing provided to us as evidence was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the dramatic change in behavior that followed such a thing. I have a list of them from my own small circle. The Holy Spirit didn't indwell in an Israelite for bringing a sin or a peace offering to the temple door.

Longer answer: Many Catholics claim miracles aplenty on an ongoing basis, but no one pays attention to them. VD is right: miracles tend not to matter either to the true believer or the true non-believer. But, say, to the person whose tumor disappears after a visit to Lourdes they're pretty important. In any case, your own existence should be miracle enough for you, since you didn't "will yourself into being". At least not so far as anyone knows, and even if you did there's still a miracle buried in there somewhere because that would be just as astounding as anything else. In many ways the desire for miracles is very wrong-headed: they are demonstrations of power, mainly, whereas the point is love, not power.

Josh, when you read towards the end of Revelation about how there are still unbelievers even though the Lord has reigned for a thousand years on earth, you will realize that it is a total waste of energy to argue with atheists. I know, I know, it is the Christian thing to give them the facts. But the fact is, they do not want or desire a clue.

For the record though, I believe your testamony. The Lord works in mysterious ways, and His ways are wonderous to our eyes.

Outlaw X

I for one am very glad you survived such an awful accident and that the police had the good sense to see the truth of the situation and appologize. That doesn't happen very often.

They are not going to believe you. I have seen many miracles and none of them will convince a man that there is a God. I may be an old fart, but this gives me advantage.

God is not a vending machine of miracles. These people want to try and test God scientifically. They are foolish people, thinking that believers believe they can put in their quarter in the prayer machine and a bag of Cheetos comes out.

It is an insane argument to say that Me or you believe any such thing. So their proof asked for will never happen. Remember the story of poor man Lazarus where he was in Abraham's Bosom and the rich man asked for him to put a drop of water on his tongue and when he was told no he said let be go back and warn my brothers. He was told that if they didn't believe then they would not either even if he was brought back from the dead.

It was a prophecy in the Gospel of those who wouldn't believe even when Jesus was brought back from the dead. And still is. Be as Abraham.

Their reports: A 15-year old said her jaw was reset; a 44-year-old said his sight was restored in one eye and that he has begun seeing light and shadows out of a socket with a glass eye; a woman, 66, said six hernias on her stomach had disappeared; and a 16-year-old Fort Mill, S.C., girl said a birth defect in her femur that had left her pigeon-toed is healed.Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2008/06/19/51214/tattooed-preacher-says-god-heals.html#storylink=cpy

Josh; good work, and while slightly better than "Josh" making claims, the Charlotte Observer story is still the bottom of the barrell for what constitues evidence. I'll have to look into the SMJ article further before commenting.

It would be an effing miracle if God could directly answer one of my prayers even just once. And please don't give me this crap about Him responding to everything it's just that we don't necessarily like the answers... I know benign neglect when I see it.

Pre-science miracles would have had lesser effect on free-will. After the scientific revolution a miracle would be too overwhelmingly persuasive to the Modern mind. Therefore God does not perform miracles today in order to leave the free will balance at 50/50.

I think the issue is confused between the very small minority who are looking for a real “sign from God” so they can believe, and the vast majority of resolute non-believers who want to turn God into their own Cosmic Monkey of party favors or just make the argument to argue.

I suspect that God isn't working the big, gaudy miracles because we might reverse engineer them - and they involve higher physics we aren't ready for. You don't hand a toddler a loaded gun, even if he will be able to handle one responsibly when he's grown up.

The subtle miracles are quite another matter. There's an elegance to them.

the vast majority of resolute non-believers who want to turn God into their own Cosmic Monkey of party favors

This isn't the common act of non believers. This is the common act of believers. How many times do I have to watch and listen to someone thank God for some random easily explained event, explaining that had it not been for God they would have never got that pass in the end zone or never won the Oscar or never gotten their score to -18 under par to win the tournament or never received the job offer.

Again People...Refer to the greatest most documented miracle in history. A person not only merely dead but also most sincerely dead...rising from the grave on the third day.

To say nothing of the time when a person floated above the ground with no aid, waved his hands and instantly saw a barren field turn to colorful flowers before looking upward, waving his hand and instantly making the clouds gather and the rain appear.

This happened in Nebraska about 70 years ago. The problem was that there were no witnesses. But we know it's true because my great uncle George heard about it from a guy at the Five and Dime who knew this guy who knew the brother of the person who performed the miracle.

Here's a riddle: If an agnostic were the subject of a miracle, would he know it?-------------------I'm meeting up with some buddies at a bar one evening, and as I get out of my car and start to head down the sidewalk I stop dead in my tracks. I hadn't forgotten anything. It hadn't occurred to me that I had forgotten something. Yet I turned around, looked back to my car for a few seconds and then literally asked myself, 'why are you standing here staring at your car for absolutely no reason?'.

Somewhat befuddled, I restarted my walk down the side walk, and it's at this point that a car smashes into one of those old newspaper vending machines. The machine flies and then skids down the sidewalk, finally coming to a stop quite literally at my feet.

Nobody was hurt in the accident, but had I not stopped and stared (as if in a trance) at my car for a just a few seconds, I would have been square in the path of either the vending machine or the car (which smashed into a building). If you'd seen that machine flying through the air, you'd have no doubt that it would have done a lot of damage had it struck me square in the chest.

Granted, this isn't exactly a Lazarus level event, but at the very least a few seconds of inexplicably odd behavior saved me a lot of pain and time in the hospital.

Miracle? Coincidence? Spontaneous remission? Hoax? Beats the hell out of me...-----------------------This seems to me the inherent nature of faith and miracles and whatnot. Expecting persuasive evidence premised on natural, materialist constraints is like asking for a bowl of tomato soup that you can eat with chopsticks. The result is going to be messy at best.

These verses answer the question, "why doesn't God talk to mankind directly as He did with Moses?"

Simply put Israel couldn't stand to listen to the Lord's voice. They practically begged Moses to do the talking and leave them out of it since the Lord's voice was so awesome and caused so much fear among them. They feared dying as a result of personally experiencing the Lord's voice and presence.

God agreed with the sentiment and instructed them to stand farther away, which I take to mean that Israel's desire to avoid direct experience of God's glory in this case was not caused by rebellion but by true reverence for the Lord God.

This seems to me the inherent nature of faith and miracles and whatnot. Expecting persuasive evidence premised on natural, materialist constraints is like asking for a bowl of tomato soup that you can eat with chopsticks. The result is going to be messy at best.

There's nothing messy about this.

The vending machine simply didn't hit the person. People are spared injury every day because of a random decision.

I'm with Josh. Miracles happen all the time. However they are completely unprovable specifically because they are outside the natural laws and repeatability. (Well maybe depending on your interpretation of quantum physics)

Healing is a far bigger miracle then most think though because usually it's flying against even the faith of the healed. Weather on the other hand is far more flexible.

As far as large miracles go I think the Red Sea was really the Reed Sea like some translators think. First there is archeological evidence. Second having grown up around swampy terrain I'm pretty sure that making it through one with no guide while being pursued by soldiers is a miracle.

These verses answer the question, "why doesn't God talk to mankind directly as He did with Moses?"

If the God who can purportedly raise a person from the dead and create heaven and earth can't figure out how to whisper in a non-threatening manner, then I think it might be time to re-think your commitment to this particular God...Or at least consider the nature of his recent injuries.

"It would be an effing miracle if God could directly answer one of my prayers even just once. And please don't give me this crap about Him responding to everything it's just that we don't necessarily like the answers... I know benign neglect when I see it."

When the peasant repeatedly makes demands of the King... and the King ignores the peasant...

Do we conclude the King does not exist?

God is not Santa Claus son. I suggest you read the Bible more... and listen less to the women at church.

@Tad If you are really interested in evidence of miracles look at the most documented miracle in history. I am talking about evidence. There are whole books on the subject. You take word of mouth evidence all the time. You been to Moscow? No? How do you know it is there? Pictures? ....duh Photoshop!

Even a cursory glance at the Oct. 13th, 1917 (very contemporary in biblical standards) Miracle of the Sun with between 50,000- 70,000 witnesses would seem to be a pretty good example.

"The Old Testament aside, it seems perfectly obvious that miracles actually would create believers, but what is more than likely here is that miracles don’t actually happen and have never happened, even during the time periods covered by the Old (and New) Testament." - das Fleisch Esser February 14, 2013 9:37 AM

This is just a willfully ignorant statement that overlooks mountains of documented evidence for Miracles that have occurred in both the Old and New Testament.

As has been pointed out already by many on here already (and is being currently illustrated by Tard and his lot, by the way Tad do you have a problem counting to 5?) is that non-believers are that way because they willfully choose to be. Free will, the Fall of Man and all that. It is clear that God conducts Miracles to serve his purposes when and how he chooses.

The vending machine simply didn't hit the person. People are spared injury every day because of a random decision.

I would have expected nothing less from you Tad. You reject a priori even the possibility of miracles, and lo and behold you conclude that there are no miracles. Your reasoning isn't big enough to be circular...it's 'dotular'.

"...non-believers are that way because they willfully choose to be. Free will, the Fall of Man and all that. It is clear that God conducts Miracles to serve his purposes when and how he chooses." - allyn71

And that is the perfect distillation of this entire thread. Well said allyn.

When the laws of nature are broken, it is logical to look for something outside those laws.

Fair enough. All you need to do now is meticulously describe which law of nature was broken, how it was broken, and how you know it was broken and how you know another law of nature was not in fact adhered to in the disappearance of the tumor.

Fair enough. All you need to do now is meticulously describe which law of nature was broken, how it was broken, and how you know it was broken and how you know another law of nature was not in fact adhered to in the disappearance of the tumor.

That's Josh's call. I just have to decide whether or not I believe him.

When you have been around for infinity ... 4000 years is a flash... maybe God is just on a bathroom break... when he returns and looks down on his monitor on us he say .."holy shit, sweet Mary and Joseph... what are these crazy humans doing now... you know these damn humans have been more trouble than they are worth.. why cant they be more like dogs .. now there's a creation that can make a creator proud ... maybe there is something better on channel 24678564..."

All you need to do now is meticulously describe which law of nature was broken, how it was broken, and how you know it was broken and how you know another law of nature was not in fact adhered to in the disappearance of the tumor.

Furthermore, Giraffe, prove the existence of an omniscient being by proving you're omniscient. Then Tad will demonstrate how you actually aren't, because it's possible you have an elaborate spy network feeding you information by heretofore unknown, but totally measurable means.

This is not a big miracle at all, but it is one that I personally experienced. While a student at collage, I lost my wallet. I retraced my steps and couldn't find it. I looked in my car and had the same result. I looked in my car extremely carefully, and it was not a large car. I am not blind and this was during the day.

After checking out my path and my car, I figured I left my wallet at home. This was during the days I actually carried cash, so I needed to find that thing. I drove home and checked everywhere I could. I couldn't find it.

I gave up, prayed that God would show me where it was as I evidently couldn't find it. As soon as I did, I had a mental image of my wallet sitting at a certain spot in my car, with something sticking out of it a bit.

I chided myself for what I thought was my own mental image. I had already checked out the car in detail and even that spot. However, I was urged to go back out to the car and look again. I found the wallet there looking exactly how it did in my mental image. The same little bit of paper sticking out of it, the same angle on the floor, everything.

Now, I'm sure someone like Tad would say "obviously you saw the wallet there and then reminded yourself of it later." To which I would say, you're a flaming moron as HAD I seen the wallet there I would have picked it up as I was looking for it at the time. I wouldn't have seen it and then ignored it.

I also had another small event where once, and only once, I was "urged" to do something and despite my disbelief that it was necessary, did it and then saw why I had to do it, but I'll spare you that one.

"The Old Testament aside, it seems perfectly obvious that miracles actually would create believers, but what is more than likely here is that miracles don’t actually happen and have never happened, even during the time periods covered by the Old (and New) Testament."

Scholars have pointed out after Jesus died, his movement really should have died with him. He had eleven core apostles, and those were not what you would call intellectual or oratorical heavyweights(fishermen, tax collector, etc) and maybe 10x that in fairly dedicated followers(men and women).

And yet Christianity took off. One of the few explanations for that is those followers were performing inexplicable miracles which attracted more and more people. Most of the other explanations for it demonstrate large amounts of historical ignorance(such as the explanation that ancient people were all stupid).

Since VD put that purple rabbit over there, I've been clicking it. These old Scalzi posts are kinda funny. Much better than what he's writing now.

Gamma humor about chocolate:

Slowly, her sphere of conciousness expands to include me, her husband, her life-long mate, her presumed partner in all things ecstatic.

“Hey, this is pretty good,” she’ll say. “You want some?”

No, I don’t. I want nothing to do with an object that does to my wife in one bite what I’ve worked for an entire relationship to achieve. It wouldn’t do any good, anyway. Men just don’t have the same relationship with chocolate that women do. It’s not even close.

"Most of the other explanations for it demonstrate large amounts of historical ignorance(such as the explanation that ancient people were all stupid).

Well, durr. Anyone older than you is dumber than you. Evolution says so, and who are we to question its tenets?" - Mystery Man

It is easy to prove that the Ancients weren't as smart as we...just improve on one of their structures like the Great Pyramid. I will spot you the Computers, Printers and Laser Rangefinders. Oh wait. The Japanese in their heyday attempted a 60' scale model...but guess what? Had to use Heavy Equipment and Helicopters to place blocks...much smaller than those in the great pyramid. Booyah !

God wants man to a) know Him b) believe in Him c) act on their awareness of His existence.

At the initiation of both covenants God acted masterfully, deliberately and visibly in order to earn a reputation. In this way He established Himself as powerful and merciful thereby drawing man's attention to Him in the form of an earned reputation - one recorded for posterity. By establishing Himself as worthy He intrigues man to seek Him and trust in Him. Man sees what God did in the past and makes decisions to act on his beliefs in the present based on God's previous actions and the logical conclusion that "if God did that then...than He can do x right now too. He is trustworthy...". In other words, God is an historian...

(Hint for any aspies around: I'm not really advocating a 40 day fast. I'm just saying that if the BEST of the saints had to do that before God answered their prayers, it is absolutely nuts to be offended if he doesn't answer ours, which are typically said once before bedtime.)

The big miracle is love. God created us with free will because we would be unable to acheive real love without it. He loved the degenerate, rebellious human race so much that he became one of us and willingly went to the cross that all might be saved. The martyrs of the early church demonstrated their love for God by refusing to say that Ceasar was Lord. We demonstrate our love for God by growing in grace and the knowledge of Him through the study of His Word. And the hard part...when we demonstate His quality of love to our fellow humans, not with the counterfiet love of the Godless and and carnal believers. WGM

Tracking you down is very difficult. You'll recall earlier where you hemmed and hawed over answering my questions regarding the very real possibility of gun confiscation. Regarding California, you said "show me a bill". While I argued that a bill was unnecessary because what mattered was that politicians were openly talking about it... happily, the Democrats in Missouri have removed even this barrier:

Now, I'm sure someone like Tad would say "obviously you saw the wallet there and then reminded yourself of it later." To which I would say, you're a flaming moron as HAD I seen the wallet there I would have picked it up as I was looking for it at the time. I wouldn't have seen it and then ignored it.

Whether you choose to admit it or not, this is nothing like a "miracle". It's much more like you not seeing your wallet in the first place. Humans look past concrete things all the time. It's the origin of the phrase, "if it were a snake it would have bit me". Furthermore, what happened in your head and mind can't be confirmed, may not be as you describe it and for all we know, may never have happened at all.

Alright, this was supposed to be in another thread, but I'm not sure if Outlaw X is still checking there. So OT here, sorry for that.

Outlaw X, as a Baptist, I am completely confused on the subject of eschatology. You seem to have a pretty sound grasp on the subject and I viewed your posts on the "Pope Resigns" thread with deep and sincere interest.

Could you please recommend books on the subject? I am ignorant and am seeking enlightenment. Also, so you'll like me, my favorite writer is G. K. Chesterton. I'm not afraid to read Catholic writers in the slightest, and I've read "The Resurrection of The Son of God" by N. T. Wright. Much respect and thanks in advance!

Also worth considering is that maybe he does. I'm pretty skeptical about a lot of miracle claims, but I've been reading a 2 volume work by Craig Keener called _Miracles_ and it's got me rethinking my position.

That still doesn't mean that they are relatively commonplace, esp in the Western world, but it's worth keeping in mind.

There is Dawkins, in Hell, thinking "This is a horrible reaction to the anesthesia, it is all an illusion. I know it can't be real, and the doctors will bring me out of it soon. They said the surgery was routine. This can't go on!"

"This will stop soon...but it seems like I have been here...forever. I will come out of it soon...soon..."

Miracles are things which happen outside of the natural laws which govern our world like gravity, physics, etc. They would also include creative miracles like getting new eyeballs (a friend prayed for a person in Cambodia and where an empty socket once was, right before their eyes, a brand new eyeball which was fully functional was created) which caused quite the stir in the village and community where he lived. Many came to believe in Jesus after that. That was 2 years ago.

Another type of miracle which one of my best friends witnessed. He was an extreme mountain guide hiking with a group on the glaciers on the west coast of British Columbia. One of the girls in the group slipped and started sliding down on the snow, heading towards a cliff of well over 1000 feet. The incline increased, as did her speed. She was clawing and digging her feet into the snow to try and stop or slow her decent, but to no avail. He watched in horror at her certain death plunge about to happen. He called out to God and she abruptly stopped about 8 feet from the edge, perfectly still. They had to get to her with ropes so they would not fall off the incline, with her stuck to the snow. There are witnesses to the whole thing.

That is a miracle from 20+ yrs ago.

Healings are the alignment of natural things to their given purpose and function. Broken bones, skin ailments, mental and emotional woundings, scarring and distorted or wrong thinking.

I had a healing in my own life. Had a medically verified deadly allergy to cold by a top immunologist's written documentation to prove this. Got specific prayer for the healing of this disease close to 3 years later over a course of one month. Walked in with the disease, got intense prayer for 5 minutes and walked out completely healed. Have been enjoying winter sports and activities for the past 3 years since. No problems or reactions since that day! Thank you Father, Son and Holy Spirit!!!!!

You want to see miracles and healings? Go to places where they happen. Start healing people, by the Name of Jesus, yourselves. Jesus commanded his disciples (that is what we are if we do what He called us to do) to HEAL THE SICK. He didn't say pray for the sick, He said HEAL. We just need to have the faith, pure as a mustard seed and just as small. Then our faith will grow into a large tree, fully mature.

There is Dawkins, in Hell, thinking "This is a horrible reaction to the anesthesia, it is all an illusion. I know it can't be real, and the doctors will bring me out of it soon. They said the surgery was routine. This can't go on!"

"This will stop soon...but it seems like I have been here...forever. I will come out of it soon...soon..."

You want to see miracles and healings? Go to places where they happen. Start healing people, by the Name of Jesus, yourselves. Jesus commanded his disciples (that is what we are if we do what He called us to do) to HEAL THE SICK. He didn't say pray for the sick, He said HEAL. We just need to have the faith, pure as a mustard seed and just as small. Then our faith will grow into a large tree, fully mature.

First is the idea that "miracles" have to be observed by the person making the complaint (or that they even have to be in close enough proximity that they could hear about them). As Markku pointed out, the Bible is basically a "highlight reel" of God's interactions with humans. It wasn't a "daily" event for most of history. The vast, vast majority of humans during Biblical times never saw a miracle. So even assuming the Bible is true, there's no logical reason to assume that God is under obligation to do miracles on some schedule that's regular enough and widespread enough that you yourself would see them.

Second is the idea that miracles no longer happen. This view is most prominent in the West, since we're already Christianized and deal with a whole lot of doubt that God even exists (let alone performs miracles), not to mention Christians who make shit up about their experiences, which also clouds up the waters. If you were to go to a third-world nation and follow around a missionary group, there's a good chance that you would see one for yourself. A group from our church just got back from rural India and they witnessed some themselves. So in addition to the first assumption (that they have to see a miracle personally) they don't even bother to go to the places where a miracle might happen. They're setting the bar at a completely irrational level.

Third is the idea that somehow miracles must be performed by a Deity in order for Him to exist. This is simply assumptive. If we're discussing the God described in the Bible, then we know that He has changed His M.O. numerous times over the course of history (ranging from "completely hands-on" to "completely silent"). There's no reason to believe that He has to keep up the same regiment of miracles that He used during, say, the exodus from Egypt. In fact, scripture dictates that we shouldn't expect that. And even if we're speaking about a theoretical deity, we still have no reason to believe that "observable miracles" have to be part of the equation. So "seeing a miracle" isn't even inherent to the concept of belief in a deity in general, let alone the Christian God specifically.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the people who are saying that miracles don't ever happen to help people believe. Jesus said, on more than one occasion, that something was done so that people would believe (Lazarus is one such example). He used His miracles as a point of proof, in fact, during His appeals to the people.

Now, that doesn't mean that "belief" is the only reason He does them. Some times, it's to manipulate events (Exodus) and some times it's simply for His glory (healing of the man born blind).

I don't know why the big miracles aren't happening, but I agree with others that little ones still do. My wife and I went to the Guthrie Theatre but even though we discussed it and intended to take 35W to Minneapolis as we had a thousand times before, I found myself on 280 instead of 35W, no idea how. We came across the river on Washington Avenue instead of the 35W bridge and about three blocks in we met every cop and ambulance in Minneapolis blazing the other direction to the bridge that just fell down. Coincidence? Maybe, but I don't believe it. And no, I don't think I'm special - if anything, the Lord was protecting my wife and I was along for the ride!

"Whether you choose to admit it or not, this is nothing like a "miracle"." - Tad

We are talking semantics here. There are two degrees of Miracles if you will. The first is a very very unlikely occurrence used by God to communicate with his children and occasionally others. For instance... praying for and getting a wife ...and getting Jessica Biel's identical twin (separated at birth), who is a gourmet chef, loves children and Jesus and just inherited her Father's estate worth 40 million Euros after taxes. That is the first kind...The second is a person that receives their sight instantly after a lifetime of blindness (not caused by hysteria Dr Freud.) Or again being dead for say three days and then getting up and walking around. Both are miracles however the one is a complete suspension of natural physical law. Like..ordering a gale force wind to stop instantly upon command.Finding a wallet, making a shot, getting an idiot to see reason, those are very grand "minor" miracles in their own right but walking on water...raising people from the dead, now THOSE are miracles! People saw those exact miracles and refused to deny that they did see them even though seconds later they were being fed to some very hungry lions.... And that is how one Guy and some of his closest friends changed the world.

One reason Jesus Christ performed miracles was to fullfill the prophesies that He would do just that. They helped to establish that He was the Messiah and not just one of the many false messiahs. Miracles were an eye-opener but faith runs much deeper. It is the confidence that that Jesus is who He said He is and the confident expectation that He will do what is yet undone--restore the material universe and grant eternal life to those who believe in His name. WGM

Twenty years ago on a Friday I stepped on an old nail. It went deep into my heel, and by Sunday morning it was hot, red and extremely sensitive. I could not put weight on it, so I hobbled into church on the ball of that foot.

I went up for prayer, thinking it would not hurt anything, and after the prayer I felt my shoe filling up with warm honey. I kept looking at it, since what I saw did not match what my foot felt.

I heard that soft voice say, "put your foot on the floor...go ahead, put it on the floor." I didn't want to do it, but I did, and it was sore, but not excruciating like it had been. I stood on that foot, I hopped on that foot down the aisle, for it had been healed.

I had not expected God to care about my stupid nail hole, but He did, and he healed it even though I didn't think he would.

"Scholars have pointed out after Jesus died, his movement really should have died with him."

the same could be said about Islam surviving the death of mohamed or buddhism after the "ascension" of Buddha. so is belief in a particular religion over a long period of time after its inception really evidence of the truth of said religion? hell, the sumerian belief system endured over 4000 years before it finally disapeared.

"Miracles were an eye-opener but faith runs much deeper. It is the confidence that that Jesus is who He said He is and the confident expectation that He will do what is yet undone--restore the material universe and grant eternal life to those who believe in His name." - WGM aka Anonymous

"...(Doubting) Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” – John 20

From personal experience, there have been several times when God has intervened in a miraculous way on my behalf. I took this not only as a demonstration of my belonging to Him, but as a stamp of my belonging to Him...maybe to an unseen world.

These built trust in me and gave me faith when I was leaping out into a situation that seen from my vantage point looked like the death of me.

Of course, my children will gladly launch themselves into my arms knowing I will always catch them. I always have. The first time was hard to convince them and must have seemed like a miracle as well. To me, it was just a joy to demonstrate how powerful and trustworthy I am.

As for the unbelievers, there are some who will see and believe. Most will simply want to attack you more. You can't look to the dead world to understand the land of the living.

I take the notion that we are behind enemy lines. However, the King we belong to is so powerful that He can send in teams to help us evade or protect us from the enemy. There is great tactical planning and maneuvering going on. Remember, no one saw much of what the plan was for Jesus coming and Paul says that was a specific tactical move by God against the devil. I can assure you, through a miracle, I was plucked from an enemy stronghold and he never saw me coming either.

Though some of us will be killed quickly in battle and others will become veterans of many. This in no way shows that the King has no power, simply that He desires War, willing soldiers and that the enemy cannot stop Him.

"What, if anything, would an atheist consider to be divine intervention?"

i dont know about atheists but i d certainly be inclined to believe in divine interventions if an angel suddently materialized in my living room complete with wings and halo and all and proceeded to answer any question i have concerning the bible upon my simply asking for it right now.

@ Edjamacatar, I agree with some of what you said. I would add that the "God" we are discussing was also using much of that entire experience to demonstrate a difference between Himself and the gods of the Egyptians and His superiority. Think of each plague and how it relates to gods the Egyptians worshiped. God basically put an ass whupping on each of their gods.

the same could be said about Islam surviving the death of mohamed or buddhism after the "ascension" of Buddha.

Mohammed had an army and was in the middle of conquering Arabia. Buddha was a member of Indian nobility who had great influence over the ruling classes. Jesus was a convicted and executed criminal, the son of a nobody, with few followers largely drawn from the lowest ranks of society.

"the same could be said about Islam surviving the death of mohamed or buddhism after the "ascension" of Buddha. so is belief in a particular religion over a long period of time after its inception really evidence of the truth of said religion? hell, the sumerian belief system endured over 4000 years before it finally disapeared."

You miss the point Lud, you want to kill the Jesus movement simply produce the body.

Your logic is off, the Mystery Babylon religions in particular increased after the death of those who started it particularly because it was so much easier to mold myth then real live people.

People there are miracles, we are just so busy making dime, wasting time and generally being oblivious to the the miracle of creation itself, everything seems to escape us. Nate has the spirit of God in him.

"You miss the point Lud, you want to kill the Jesus movement simply produce the body."

it would not. Even if they produced the skeletal remains with all the correct wounds, it would not cause most christians to even blink. the nature of religious belief is to consider something to be absolutely true and beyond all possible doubt even in the absence of any supporting evidence or in the presence of contradicting evidence.

@ Log, see how fruitless it is to simply Google something? You still don't make your point at all. You want to read the book, you see it actually has a ton of examples of this all happening. Have you ever heard of Paul, Peter, John...etc?

As for current days, it just appears that you haven't run up against an actual Christian. I would be happy to cast some devils out of you.

You see, trees are told by the fruit they bear. You might want to start looking for another orchard.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Have you heard of the book of acts?

Also, those things happen to this day: demons are cast out, the sick are healed, people receive other tongues (I personally know of an African preacher who speaks over a dozen languages that he spontaneously was able to understand).

But you are emotionally and spiritually damaged, most likely because of unresolved daddy issues, and you have decided to hate God, most likely because you want to have sex in a manner prohibited by the Bible.

"Is that how you define historical proof that something did or didn't happened? That someone disagree it didn't happen, after the fact, against documentation that it did?"

there s no such thing as historical proof...proof is a concept of mathematics, not historical accuracy or lack thereof. In history, evidence usually exists in the form of historical documents or artifacts of a given period in time that fit together to form the historical narrative.

"But you are emotionally and spiritually damaged, most likely because of unresolved daddy issues, and you have decided to hate God, most likely because you want to have sex in a manner prohibited by the Bible"

ad hominems are indications that one has run out of intelligent things to say FYI.

Hmm, your theories have such interesting applications. All the "progress" that progressives have made legally and politically can now be overturned by us all agreeing they didn't happen and then saying that any documentation that it did simply is false.

Kickass; the firt time anyone who wanted to "kill the Jesus movement" would have even known the production of a body would have been an viable option would have been 50 days after Jesus' death, at which point it wouldn't have done any good. This is in Acts 2.

@ Log, what words would that be? It is easy to cut and paste. I will wait.

I am a very serious and devoted Christian. I would caution you to watch what you claim without a shred of evidence to back it up. You just might come to the horrifying conclusion that Jesus was talking to you.

Pray tell how you know what works I have or have not done for my Lord?

Had a deacon once give a homily in St Williams Catholic Church. He said he could walk down the pews and name each and everyone of our sins. I did the incomprehensible never forgiven sin of speaking back during a Homily and told him to come name mine in front of everyone. The priest stood up and stopped it and I got a tongue lashing after Mass. The Deacon was sent away the next week. We never saw him again.