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1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is an inference on my side because you do not want 2these holes in the roof of a space to remain. When you 3have taken out the columns, it is an obvious conclusion 4that you would close these holes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
I can see his Lordship frowning and I think the whole 6court is inwardly frowning about this rather improbable 7story, implausible idea. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, just for the record and for the 9transcript, I did not frown. 10MR IRVING: I am sorry, my Lord. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us get on with the question. 12MR IRVING: Yes. The implausibility of the story, that before 13putting in packs of dynamite beneath the building to blow 14everything up so that the Red Army does not find any 15criminal traces, they send in workmen with buckets of 16cement and trowels and tell them to make good the holes in 17the roof. This sounds, I must say, totally implausible to 18me, and we know now that it never happened because the 19roof is there and there is not the slightest trace of such 20patchwork having been done on the concrete? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, it is at the moment impossible to see because of 22the state of the roof if there was patchwork or not. The 23roof is fragmented. The roof has weathered very, very 24badly over 50 years, and the colour of concrete in the 25roof is of a motley quality, to say, and there is a lot of 26growth has been on the roof. It is impossible to tell one

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1way or another. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
We are talking about the underside of the roof, of course, 3and we have any number of photographs of the underside of 4that roof where you can actually see the original wood 5grain in the formwork on the concrete that survives, and 6that shows not the slightest displacement or interference 7or tampering with. This is the implausible part of your 8story. I appreciate that you are anxious to move on to 9other topics because, frankly, this blows holes in the 10whole of the gas chamber story. If there are no holes in 11that roof, no holes in that roof, there are no holes now 12and there were no holes then, and that totally demolishes 13the evidence of your so-called eyewitnesses? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, I have already yesterday pointed out that the 15column which remains and over which the room has been 16folded is the second column which was not the column where 17the column, the Zyklon-B introduction column was attached 18to, there were four of them, attached to column 1, 3, 5 19and 7. May I address ---- 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wanted to ask you -- may I do it now -- 21about the columns because I understood your evidence 22yesterday to be that jutting out, as it were, from the 23roof of the alleged gas chamber there were the columns as 24well as the metal apertures through which the Zyklon-B, 25you say, was poured? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The columns -- it is unlikely, my Lord, that the ----

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1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Did I misunderstand that? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- columns would be going through the roof completely 3because the columns themselves were wider. They had these 4three concentric layers, but what would have happened is 5that there were a hole through the roof, and then on the 6top of it you get a kind if chimney like structure, and as 7long as the hole is connected to the innermost, to the 8innermost kind of column inside and of the same width so 9that this little thing can be brought up and down which 10ultimately allowed people to retrieve the earth in which 11the Zyklon was absurd during transport. As long as that 12hole was the same as the diameter of the inner column, 13then whatever you do above the roof is irrelevant. 14I mean, you can have a box or you can have just a lid 15there. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow. But the question I am really 17trying to get at is this. If your evidence is that the 18pillars were protruding above the level of the roof ---- 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
You said the Zyklon-B introduction pillars? 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, that is what I am asking you. I thought you said 21that the pillars, the structural pillars, were 22protruding ---- 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, the structural pillars did not and do not. 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, that was my misunderstanding of your evidence. 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We have a blue print which shows those pillars and we can 26look at if you want.

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1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Whilst I am asking you questions, I am not sure you have 2really responded to the suggestion that was implicitly 3being put to you by Mr Irving which is that these objects 4that one can see on the roof of the gas chamber, alleged 5gas chamber, are, in fact, drums containing some sort of 6sealant. You have not actually dealt with that 7suggestion. 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, and I would like to deal with that, if it is 9possible? 10MR IRVING: Are you saying that all four of those objects were 11the pipes, as you call them? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, these would be, this would be the chimney. There 13would be some structure around the pipe, because if you 14just have a pipe coming up, you want to have probably some 15kind of insertion mechanism. If you take a tin of 16Zyklon-B, that probably there is a little funnel attached 17to, and also you want probably not the pipe to run 18straight through the earth, you probably want to have some 19kind of protection around that pipe. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, can I draw your attention to picture 10A in K2? 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I still do not think, Professor van 22Pelt, you have really dealt with the suggestion that these 23are drums containing sealant. Could that be so? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would like to deal with it. 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Deal with it now. 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
First of all, we are coming, of course, in a -- the

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1problem is the exact dating of this image. If this image 2had been taken, let us say, in November, December, let us 3say December 1942, I think it could have been a plausible 4suggestion. I mean, we would have to look then in what 5shape of tins sealant is coming, but let us assume that 6this is, this is December, at that moment we know that 7there was construction activity on the roof. We also know 8that by the end of January, I mean, in fact, by the middle 9of January already, from correspondence, that the roof of 10morgue No. 1 had been completed, and one of the reasons 11for that we know that is the notorious Fergantung's letter 12of January 29, 1943. So, what is the reason that we know 13that this is not December 1942, but that this is or that 14we are already talking about probably February 1943. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought you said '42, I am bound to say. 16MR IRVING: November '42? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My argument is that Mr Irving's argument could be taken 18seriously at least for a moment until we have established 19what shape these containers come if this photo had been 20taken in December 1942. My argument is that the roof was 21already completed by January 1943. 22 My second argument is that one can, if one looks 23carefully at this photo, see that there is some kind of 24black line on the top of the chimney. There seems to be 25some soot on the top of the chimney which means that the 26chimney, as it is depicted in this photo, has had some