Iowa City, Iowa — A campus minister at the University of Iowa is facing possible censure from United Methodist leadership for officiating a same-sex ceremony for another female clergy member.

Anna Blaedel, the executive director of the university’s Wesley Student Center, presided over the ceremony in Oklahoma on April 4, despite knowledge that doing so is forbidden by the United Methodist Book of Discipline.

“I knew that officiating at this wedding could cost me my credentials, could cost me my job, could cost me my health insurance and could cost me my income,” she told the Press-Citizen. “But I also knew that saying ‘no’ to one of my best friends would cost me my integrity and my soul.”

The Appointive Cabinet of the Iowa Conference consequently filed a unanimous complaint against Blaedel last month for engaging in a practice that is “incompatible with Christian teaching.” She met with the cabinet this week over the matter, and states that there is disagreement between the parties as to what spiritual harm was caused by her actions and how to make things right.

The board of directors over the Wesley Student Center supports Blaedel and claims that it is rather United Methodist policies that are “incompatible with Christian teaching.”

“The board rejects this formal complaint, and the policies of the discipline that it is grounded in, as discriminatory and unjust and laments the disruption of ministry it will cause,” it wrote in an open letter, viewable online.

“We find the United Methodist Church’s continued discrimination and harm of the LGBTQ community through actions such as this complaint to be incompatible with Jesus’ teaching,” the board said. “Such a complaint and such policies have no place in a denomination professing to have open hearts, open minds and open doors.”

This is not the first time a complaint has been filed against Blaedel. In August, she declared before the Iowa United Methodist Church’s Annual Conference that she herself is a lesbian.

“I am a ‘self-avowed practicing homosexual.’ Or, in my language, I am out, queer, partnered clergy,” she announced to the crowd of 1,400 attendees.

Three ministers immediately filed a complaint, noting that the United Methodist Book of Discipline outlines that “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching” and that “self-avowed practicing homosexuals” may not be ordained as ministers in the denomination.

However, charges were later dropped by Julius Trimble, a bishop of the Iowa Conference, when a resolution could not be reached as Blaedel refused to walk away from the homosexual lifestyle. A complaint was subsequently filed against Trimble for his inaction.

“We were disappointed in the way Trimble handled the complaint,” one of the complainants, Chris Downey, told the United Methodist publication Good News. “If he thought Blaedel’s admission was in defiance of the discipline, then he should’ve proceeded accordingly. If he did not, he should’ve had the courage of his convictions. He should’ve openly told the people of the Iowa Annual Conference why he had no intention of holding Blaedel accountable to her ordination vows.”

In an article entitled “Why Many Methodists Still Oppose Same-Sex Marriage,” John Lemperis, the Director of the UM Action program of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, says that the Bible is crystal clear on the issue of homosexuality.

“Even liberal Biblical scholars now agree that the Old and New Testaments are very clear in their moral disapproval of homosexual practice,” he writes. “More fundamentally, Scripture paints a beautiful picture of marriage as a holy covenant of intensely intimate, self-giving community between man and woman, uniting the two most basic, equal categories of humanity.”

“We submit to Jesus as Lord,” Lemperis states. “If He is truly Lord, then no area of our lives can be off-limits to Him. Jesus spoke strongly about the centrality of self-denial in following Him, which often means dramatic personal sacrifices, including not acting on powerful desires for things outside of God’s best for us. … Jesus and new life in Him are more than worth it.”

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Oboehner

Hence 1 Timothy 2:12–13

InTheChurch

I was thinking more of the verse: what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul?

golding4

Only Born Again Christians, (those who have given up the world) will have saved souls and that represents only about 3 to 4% of the people, where do you fit in?

InTheChurch

Why am I being questioned?

Chris

Because golding4 is God’s inquisitor.

golding4

Actually Chris, my post was meant to you, your words prove that your still unrepentant and love to ridicule Christians

Chris

“Actually Chris, my post was meant to you, …”

Your post is directed to ‘In The Church’ not me.

“…your words prove that your still unrepentant…”

It’s amazing how you can tell me about myself when you don’t know a single thing about me. Now, many people would consider that arrogant but not me. Please tell me more about myself.

“…and love to ridicule Christians.”

On the contrary. I have found the Christians on this site – in the church, susan at home, etc – to be wonderful people. It’s fundies I’ll debate. I don’t ridicule anyone. I don’t believe in it. And I’m sorry if you felt ridiculed. I will however show flaws in your position.

InTheChurch

Chris, how are you doing? are you recovering well?

Chris

Not so much. Some days my knee feels great while on others it aches like the dickens. Oh well, such is life. Thank you for asking. Much appreciated.

How are you going?

InTheChurch

I am good. West coast is already warm so time for the beach. have you gone in to get your knee checked?

Chris

I’m glad to hear you are in good health. It’s freezing here. Winter has come in earnest.

I’ve had my knee seen by a specialist. Unfortunately he’s said I need keyhole surgery. The good news is it will be a walk in/walk out affair. He told me to just make sure I took my pain killers until they were no longer needed.

InTheChurch

I prefer winter over summer. I wish I was a billionaire and I can move to my house down under during our summers. LOL have extra cash laying around?
Get that surgery and get back to 100%. prayers coming your way.

Chris

Many thanks for your prayers. As to extra money sorry but I can’t help you. No extra cash that I can see. As to seasons I prefer autumn. It’s beautiful here in the Fall.

golding4

Sorry, my post was in wrong location….by your words, I know you are a brother

Noah Webster

These women are not here to gain the world. Here to destroy it

InTheChurch

obvious and also to destroy their soul

Michael Ellis

Two completely different issues. Stop taking verses out of context

Oboehner

Better to whack branches that get to the trunk?

meamsane

I will add….2Peter 3:7;9-11;17.

Chris

“But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.”

Do you honestly believe that the world was formed out of water?

golding4

If God can make the Heavens and all that is within by just a word from His mouth (as the book of Proverbs says) and God drew a circle on the face of the deep, separated the waters from the waters below from the waters above and called that area separated Heaven and the below waters due to the high pressures land was formed…..I have no problem with this, My God can do anything! and lets get to the reason of the bible…….I don’t know how old the earth is and no one else does either but man has been on earth (biblical math) going on 7,000 years, even if the earth is much older. Now just a thought, no prove of; could, from the first man to the present man represent (the day of man) and the bible was started sometime before or after Abraham’s time when the first book of the bible was wrote by a man named Job and a few hundred years later Moses wrote the 5 books of the Jewish law given by God……Right from the very start of the bible, the whole theme of the bible was Man’s salvation, could this be the sixth day when man was created and the seventh day of rest is about to began, (just saying, I don’t know, just a theory.) but I do know that due to the end words of the bible, this age is about to end and do so with great conflict, the stage is being set. and after is a thousand years of Christ rule here on earth. so we see the bible paralleling the day of man….to give him instructions to regain his fellowship with God……and now the saddest words in God’s Word the bible;
Wide is the road to destruction (hell) and narrow is the path to life, and few there be that find it……..I could give you the ref. but would hope you will have to read some of His Word to look it up.

Chris

I’m not saying that God couldn’t make land from water. I’m saying that the Earth wasn’t made from water and isn’t composed of water.

The rest is just your interpretation of scripture so I’ll give it a miss.

golding4

I believe you will give all scripture a miss.

Chris

If you produce the evidence I will consider it. Of that I can assure you. And there was one point in my life when I trusted scripture absolutely.

http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

And what manner of woman wants the job forbidden by scripture? A Romans 1:26 woman.

Grace Kim Kwon

Amen

golding4

Why not give John 3:16 instead, it is more fitting to the subject matter.

Oboehner

Just as fitting as any random passage I suppose.

Noah Webster

How so

InTheChurch

She admitted and gave us a list of consequences for supporting sin. Methodist Church follow through with her confessed consequences. She made it easy.

Sisyphus

But Methodists are nearly Congregationalist which is just a short hop from Unitarian.

InTheChurch

So she is safe because the church doesn’t follow scripture?

golding4

How could she be safe from hell, she is, and has not been taught truth of salvation in Christ

InTheChurch

She is not safe from hell but she will keep her credentials and job as a minister. A pharisee is a better term.

Chris

Why is she pharisaic? She practices what she preaches.

InTheChurch

I agree and disagree. She is practicing what she preaches but she is not preaching the right stuff. She is promoting sin.

Chris

That, surely, is a matter of perspective. As far as my religion is concerned she’s not doing anything wrong.

InTheChurch

You are correct and I see where you are coming from. If we follow Biblical standards, then she is. Her church follows Biblical standards so she is not following the church, she is a member of and a clergy of that church.

Chris

Then perhaps the Bible standard, as interpreted by her church is wrong. Perhaps it needs to be questioned.

She may be in violation of such a standard or perhaps she is like the theologians who questioned sexism and racism within the church. Time will tell.

InTheChurch

I think that is the place many clergy find themselves today. Follow my church standard or follow my “own standard.” Follow Christ of the Bible or follow my feelings, morals and emotions. They can find a church that has liberal views and they fit better at. I say, good luck and God bless.

Chris

I think how the ministers would interpret it is ‘follow Christ and my conscience or follow the church and its teachings’.

Sisyphus

Safe? I guess I didn’t know she was in danger. It appears all you Christians have is threats for anyone that doesn’t follow your dogma.

Sisyphus

Safe from?

golding4

I visited a United Methodist church in San Rafael, CA. some years back and I had the only bible that I could see and the sermon was given out of a magazine, I requested to speak to the Minister and he gave me a time of Tuesday morning. I arrived for out meeting and the first words out of his mouth was, you must be one of those Jesus freaks and you most likely believe in the virgin birth also, and a difference between Heaven and Hell, My first words and last were, and you are the blind leading the blind and I walked out without another word. this man was not just a Minister, he had a doctorate degree in theology!!!!!!!….They don’t teach, you must be born again!

Chris

Yes, yes, you are the only true Christian in the entire world unless people agree with you. Isn’t that how this ego worship goes?

golding4

the man did not believe in the virgin birth! nor a difference between Heaven and hell, what was I to believe? except that the man with all his status and glorious degrees was living a lie in the pulpit.

Chris

“The man did not believe in the virgin birth!”

I was not aware that belief in the virgin birth was necessary for salvation in Christian theology.

“Nor a difference between Heaven and hell, ”

Once again, what has such a belief got to do with salvation?

“What was I to believe?”

That is not for me to say. I merely follow the facts and seek the truth.

“…except that the man with all his status and glorious degrees was living a lie in the pulpit.”

Living a lie would be hiding what he believes NOT declaring it outright. Would you care to rephrase?

Chris

If I may suggest a course of action. Rather than judging the man before you’ve even met him why not treat him as a fellow Christian and, in kindness, ask what his theological justification for his views are. Who knows, he might answer you.

http://textsincontext.wordpress.com Michael Snow

No, it is your unrepentant sin that will cost you your soul.

https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

Another CINO SJW doing the work of Satan and making a mockery out of God to those that need Him but not yet found Him. How very sad for her and all that believe as she does.

Chris

“Another CINO”

Talking to yourself again?

Chris

“But I also knew that saying ‘no’ to one of my best friends would cost me my integrity and my soul.”

A brave woman who took a brave stand. You have my respect.

golding4

In reality, what you did only proves that your soul was lost all your life and you have never opened the door to your soul and asked Jesus to come in, makes your soul in a lost condition even as you write your post.
And No….she is not a brave woman….she is just a lost soul….and she has my prayers, not respect.

Chris

“In reality, what you did only proves that your soul was lost all your
life …”

So leaving a comment proves that I have lost my soul? Boy it really doesn’t take much to upset a fundie does it?

“…and you have never opened the door to your soul and asked Jesus to
come in, …”

Actually I was a born again Christian. But I’m now a Zoroastrian.

“And No….she is not a brave woman….”

Being prepared to stand up for a principle, even at the risk of your job, makes one brave. Such an action would even make a fundie brave even though I probably wouldn’t agree with why the fundie was doing it.

Noah Webster

You posted a lie. No.such thing person who can say I was born again now something else what you said is not possible. False

Chris

You have used YOUR interpretation of the bible to declare me a liar when I did no such a thing. Since you cannot be civil please refrain from addressing me in future. Thank you.

golding4

That is always the first words unbelievers say; Judge not unless you be judged….Maybe that is the only words you people know about the bible…….

Chris

“That is always the first words unbelievers say; …”

Really? I was on this site for quite a while before I quoted that verse. That’s three guess wrong out of three. I’d quite while you are behind.

“Judge not unless you be
judged….Maybe that is the only words you people know about the
bible…”

Except I studied the bible, as well as other subjects, at a uni level. That’s why I can put verses into their historical context.

golding4

You could not have been a born again Christian, you don’t receive Christ, and know Him and then reject him for Astrology and magic. I think Zoroastrianism goes right back to the dark priests that Moses has to deal with…Satan is alive and well of planet earth and his black magic ….so we know who you follow Chris and it will only lead you to darkness and unhappiness but never to Heaven. and God won’t even have mercy on you until after a repentance, now the whole picture is fallow together about you.

Chris

“You could not have been a born again Christian,…”

Are you as sure of that as you were of my motives? Remember how wrong you were there?
Fact: Your preferred interpretation of the bible says I can’t have been born again.
Fact: I was.
Conclusion: Your interpretation is wrong, or the bible is wrong or I am wrong. Since I was there and you were not I’ll tend to trust my sense of what was going on within me and so we are left with the other two options.

“…you don’t receive
Christ, ”

Well then Paul was wrong since I exhibited the fruit of the spirit. Perhaps he never received Christ either.

“…and know Him and then reject him for Astrology and magic.”

I didn’t. Where are you getting that?

“I
think Zoroastrianism goes right back to the dark priests that Moses has
to deal with…”

Not even close. Zoroastrianism was the religion of Cyrus. The same guy who was called a messiah in the Hebrew Testament. It’s the religion of the Magi who, the gospels say, came hundreds of miles to see the birth of Jesus. They were around long before Moses but in a different part of the world. Zoroastrianism started in northern Persia. While, according to the bible, Moses was born in Egypt and travelled to the border of Canaan. He never went to Persia.

“Satan is alive and well of planet earth and his black
magic ….”

May I ask you to go to youtube and watch a series of videos called ‘satanic panic’. This idea of satanism was drummed up by a handful of con artists who spread tales of fear in order to sell their books.

“…so we know who you follow Chris and it will only lead you to
darkness and unhappiness but never to Heaven.”

Strangely that isn’t what I’ve found. But if you choose to believe that, that’s your choice. I prefer to base what i believe upon evidence.

golding4

I will not cast any more pearls your way.

Chris

What can I say but oink, oink.

electedbyHim

Actually I was a born again Christian. But I’m now a Zoroastrian.

According to the Bible, one who is truly saved can never walk away from Christ. I have met many people who “were” Christians. The reality is that they never were. It is impossible.

Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Chris

“According to the Bible, one who is truly saved can never walk away
from Christ.”

Correction. According to YOUR interpretation that’s the case. I’ve also met Christians who would argue that it means that once you’re a Christian you always are. Still others would argue that the verses mean that a Christian can lose their faith.

“I have met many people who “were” Christians. The reality is that they never were. It is impossible.”

That’s the ‘reality’ of YOUR interpretation.

You then quote John. Allow me to remind you of the parable of the sower and the seed. Remember the one were the seed fell among weeds? Was the seed which grew up among weeds somehow not really a plant at all?

electedbyHim

Actually, that interpretation comes from withing the context, scripture interprets scripture. It has interpreted that way for decades by bible believing Christians and Theologians. As for one losing their salvation, a study of soteriology clears that up. I am not into debate, I know truth as revealed by Gods word, what He has done in my own life and just by looking around at creation. I live by faith not by sight.

I am not one to argue and I do not know you from Joe in California. I mean you know harm. When it comes to Gods word I need to stand on His truth. It is why I never give an opinion, just facts from Gods word. I know people hate that, even professing Christians. It brings God glory and not myself and that is all that matters to me.

The Parable of the Sower Explained
Mat 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
Mat 13:20 “The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Mat 13:22 “And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 “And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

The seed represents the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and there are four different responses to the Gospel . To summarize the point of the Parable of
the Sower: “A man’s reception of God’s Word is determined by the
condition of his heart.” A secondary lesson would be “Salvation is more
than a superficial, albeit joyful, hearing of the gospel. Someone who is
truly saved will go on to prove it.

Chris

“Even liberal Biblical scholars now agree that the Old and New
Testaments are very clear in their moral disapproval of homosexual practice,” he [John Lemperis] writes.

Nope. Several scholars both liberal and conservative disagree profoundly with what this guy wrote.

Bob Lee

Clearly, the only solution to this gross apostasy is for the congregations of all United Methodist churches to leave immediately (1 Cor 5:11). Clearly also, there can be no reliance upon this alleged church, or any other secular body to adequately adjudicate this issue according to the teachings of the faith. From the onset, the idea that a woman can be ordained as a minister is in itself unscriptural (1 Cor 14:34-35). However, to allow a sodomite women to become ordained as a “minister of Christ” is twice the damnable blasphemy and heresy. She, and this “church” will be held accountable for such behavior, and likewise will all who go along with such garbage (Rom 1:32).

As anyone who understands Bible teachings understands, the apostasy and the falling away must occur before the full realization of the last days prophesies. It is eminently obvious that such is the case now, and I would very strongly urge all Christians to leave any church that allows, endorses, or otherwise causes such activity to occur, either within Church property, or at any public or private venue that is represented by “true” Christians who are woefully ignorant of their own Bibles. For, again, as Romans 1:32 indicates, even those who give approval to such practices are equally damned.

And, the above certainly raises the question of what this alleged “minister” actually knows, or accepts, concerning Bible teachings. Did she not read these scriptures during her studies? Does she not know that she is marked for destruction? Or, is she really a Satanic change agent who is deliberately taking part in such behavior so as to bring judgement and destruction upon those ignorant members of congregations, such as this one, for going along with such garbage?

Indeed, for these two idiots, they have already been turned over for destruction. It is clear from Romans 1:26-27 that tells us: “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of a woman, burned in their lust toward one another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.” 1 Cor 6:9-11 is also very clear on this subject.

And yes, this also applies to women with women.

But, don’t take my word for it. If you have a problem with anything said here, YOU have a problem with scripture and with the Lord, and may He have mercy upon your soul (because he will have NO mercy on these two sodomites and those who defend their disgusting behavior lest they repent!).

Grace Kim Kwon

Another female “minister” who wrecks the Christendom by Sodomy. Women should not be ordained. One such deliberate disobedience leads to another, deadlier rebellion against God. Men should not be sitting under female leaders; it feminizes them. Men should learn the Word of God directly.

Tangent002

“Men should learn the Word of God directly.”

Then men should not be reading your posts, right?

Grace Kim Kwon

Read I Timothy 2 and II Peter 3 and Jude 1. Men should listen to viewpoints that are Biblical even if those are from a child. Men should listen to God as the Holy Bible says.

golding4

You sir, are a joke to your reality…….

Chris

Please print out your comment then take it to a mirror and read it.

Chris

Very good.

Chet

And far off base for sure… Thus, good for nothing of eternal value.

Chet

Reading posts or the newspaper is not hardly within the same camp as one calling herself a “minister”. And especially one, male or female, who insists on his/her own standard of living and path to righteousness apart from that of the uncompromising Christ of Calvary.. .Not hardly the same. Don’t be deceived…

golding4

You have put out a very true post, one of the best….there are reasons why God has in his Word that a woman is to be silent in church, the reason is; because women are allowed to teach children but they are not allowed to teach men….Christ is the Head of man, and a husband is the head of his wife

Michael Ellis

You are taking those verses completely out of context

Noah Webster

There is no context truth women ste forbidden to be ordained

Chris

And don’t forget that God condones slavery so you should also be supporting its re-introduction if you don’t accept the idea of historical context.

Noah Webster

Go to John mcarhurs web page he has several teachings on this

Chris

I read his teaching and it doesn’t make much sense. He contradicts himself quite often.

For example in an article entitled ‘what is scripture’s view on slavery’ he wrote “Although slavery was carefully regulated under Mosaic law, neither the Old nor New Testaments condemns slavery as such”

So scripture doesn’t condemn slavery. Ok? But in the very next paragraph he writes “Although slavery is not uniformly condemned in either the Old or New Testaments…”

But he’d just got through telling us it wasn’t condemned at all.

He also goes on to add “Nowhere in Scripture is rebellion or revolution justified in order to
gain freedom, opportunity, or economic, social, or political rights”

So slavery is ok and trying to get out of slavery is wrong according to Macarthur so I ask you again ‘when are you going to support the reintroduction of slavery?’.

Grace Kim Kwon

Today’s West enslaves mankind with Sodomy. Even Sodom and Gomorrah weren’t that evil. All historic slave owners are only average-bad comparing to today’s Western perv slave owners. None knowingly blasphemed God so heinously or killed so many millions of human babies or forced Sodomy on normal peope including children like the Ex-christian West did. The West needs the Holy Bible for sanity.

golding4

Get your marbles all in a roll, and get off the ( WEST) attitude and know that evil is all over the world …Yes…Satan, alive and well on earth, but his end is coming, you may not be from the West, and it may not be perfect but America is the greatest nation on earth and is so because of the Hand of God….Do you even know what the end days, that’s coming will be like….The time period all hinges on that fig tree that Jesus spoke of in the last days….and the generation that sees the spouting of the fig tree will not all be gone, until all is accomplished……The fig tree spouted in May of 1948…Did you not know that the symbol of Israel is the fig tree.

Grace Kim Kwon

Yes, but the powerful Western nations install and fund Sodomy in the powerless nations. It’s a slavery by culture. Westerners should feel responsible for the evil because they are powerful.

Noah Webster

I gave you the explanation that’s all you.need. slavery ended seems as though yout not being a christian are here to dirupt and mislead. Best you stop.ppsting and we ignore you by your own admission you are a cultist and disqualified from biblibsl truth and discerning theological teachings which explains your confusion with john mcstthur abdemt baptism of th spirit understanding is impossible so having said that. Seek.othe venues to harass

Chris

“I gave you the explanation that’s all you.need.”

You mean the Great Noah has spoken? Sorry but I don’t agree with you.

“Seems as
though you not being a christian are here to disrupt and mislead”

Why? Because I hold an opinion which differs from yours?

“Best
you stop.posting and we ignore you by your own admission you are a
cultist …”

Was Cyrus a cultist? Were the Magi cultists? I’m from their religion.

“…and disqualified from bible truth …”

Yes, I just studied it at a university level and now teach the history of the bible. Here’s a question for you. Can someone legitimately hold an opinion which differs from yours?

Yes because everyone who doesn’t agree with you and MacArthur is confused, right? If I’d written what you have people whould have accused me of being an egoist. Perhaps, just perhaps, you should take a long hard look at yourself.

golding4

You very smart man wid de words, you tink they giff you eterno life, when you no seem to hav fellyship wid Jesus….

Chris

Sorry but I don’t speak pidgin English. Would you care to rephrase?

IluvmyUSA

My apologies, thank you for correcting me.

IluvmyUSA

The inference for slavery in the New Testament is referred to as a “servant” depending on the context. This is the importance of developing divine wisdom. I think people spend far too much time trying to find discrepancies in words,uses, and terms to fit their own comfort zones instead of focusing on the more important issues like learning, living and applying the “mystery doctrines” for the Church age believers. I consider myself a bond slave to Christ, just as the apostles did.

Noah Webster

read my post on this slavery was taken away with Christ and at Pentacost Jesus gave us Lords Prayer to illustrate this Our Father who art in Heaven.,,,,, meaning we became free to speak directlty to God and no longer a slave to the nation of israel and the Temple high priest

Noah Webster

but now a servant

IluvmyUSA

Read the introductions of the apostles in the New Testament and see what they refer to themselves as. What you’re doing is trying to relate the spiritual life with the secular or human life and it will never make sense to you because they are totally different.

Noah Webster

Iam doing no such thing you are confusing me with Chris

Chris

“read my post on this slavery was taken away with Chris…”

Read Philemon there were still slaves among the Christians. So it would seem Paul did NOT agree.

Noah Webster

I am tired of you bad memory. Can’t even remember your own premise you have a spirit of confusion

Chris

I even quoted you and showed that the bible contradicts you. Yet I’m the one with a bad memory? You can’t even conceive of yourself being incorrect about anything can you? You have my sympathy sir. That’ must be a lousy way to live.

Chris

Oh by the way my premise was, and remains, that the bible, both old and new testaments condoned slavery.

Chris

“The inference for slavery in the New Testament is referred to as a
“servant” depending on the context.”

Not quite Philemon is in the New Testament and is Paul’s letter to Philemon concerning his runaway SLAVE [NOT servant]. But why restrict the discussion to the New Testament?

Oh and among the Roman slave holders of the 1st century CE a slave had
the same rights as a table or chair. Any free person could cripple or
kill a slave and only be guilty of damaging private property. If a
single slave attacked his or her owner and the other slaves didn’t
immediately jump to defend their owner they were all executed without
exception. Not to mention the fact that rape and physical abuse of
slaves were commonplace. Such was the potential slavery Paul was sending Onisemus back into and which MacArthur says that a slave shouldn’t run away from.

“I consider myself a bond slave to Christ, just as the apostles did.”

What you consider yourself is irrelevant. A slave may be defined as property which may be bought and sold and who has far fewer rights than a free person. Unless you are claiming that you can be defined this way then you are using sophistry and word redefinition. I’ll stick to the dictionary definition thanks.

IluvmyUSA

You’re thinking and reasoning is in human terms which is insufficient fir the spiritual life and also defines your spiritual growth. As I said “Depending on the context. The apostles considered themselves as bond slaves to bring to light the true definition of how we should live to honor Christ.

Chris

As I said it is irrelevant what they considered themselves. They do not fit the definition of a slave. They could have considered themselves kings of the world but they wouldn’t fit the definition for that either.

What I am talking about is real actual slavery. What you are talking about is a metaphoric slavery. Not the same thing at all.

golding4

Right On brother…Amen

electedbyHim

Slavery was an integral social component of the GrecoRoman world in
the first century. Slaves were the employees who did the work for their
wealthy masters. It was a widespread scheme of employment. In fact, the
entire economic structure of the Roman Empire depended on it. To
understand slavery, believers today must strip away their preconceived
notions of it. Those notions are drawn largely from the racial slavery
of the pre–Civil War American South, which bears only some resemblance
to slavery in the first-century Roman Empire.

In the Ancient Near East, much of the seasonal field work and
part-time project work was done by hired day laborers (cf.. Matt.
20:1ff.). Permanently employed domestic slaves served as managers (cf..
Luke 16:1ff.), cooks, artisans, and teachers, becoming a part of the
household, almost like family. In many respects they resembled the
indentured servants of the American colonial era.

Slaves were acquired in several different ways. Many were prisoners
of war (Num. 31:7–35; Deut. 20:10–14). They could also be purchased (Ex.
21:7; Lev. 25:44–46). Some people sold themselves into slavery (Lev.
25:39ff.; Deut. 15:12–17), others were sold to pay debts (2 Kings 4:1;
Neh. 5:1–8). Slaves could be received as gifts (Gen. 29:24), or
inherited (Lev. 25:46). Still others were born to slaves and remained in
that role.

The system was not perfect, but it was workable. Most of the abuses
came from the evil hearts of men, not from the institution itself. Such
abuses can be found in every system of employment, whether slavery,
feudalism, communism, or capitalism.

The Old Testament never forbade slavery, but carefully guarded the
rights of slaves. Jewish slaves could not be held for more than six
years (Ex. 21:2), unless they voluntarily chose to remain (Ex. 21:5–6).
Those who came into slavery with a wife and children could take them
when they left. Those given a wife by their master, however, could not
take her until her time was up. That was necessary to protect the rights
of the masters. Slaves who were abused by their masters were to be set
free (Ex. 21:26–27). Their religious rights, such as enjoying the
Sabbath rest, were also protected (Ex. 20:10). Slaves also enjoyed civil
rights. The murder of a slave brought punishment (Ex. 21:20). Foreign
slaves seeking asylum in Israel were to be protected (Deut. 23:15–16).
Slaves had economic rights, including the right to own other slaves
(cf.. 2 Sam. 9:9–10). The nation of Israel even had state slaves,
similar to civil service employees (Josh. 16:10; Judg. 1:28; Ezra 8:20).

Jewish slaves in New Testament times were similarly protected. They
were to be treated as equal to the eldest son in a family. So protected
were they that an old Jewish saying went, “Whoever buys a Jewish slave
buys himself a master.”

Gentile slaves were not always so well treated, but on the whole were
better off than day laborers. Slaves had their food, clothing, and
housing provided, along with a small wage and security. Subtracting the
costs of food, clothing and housing from a day laborer’s wages often
left him worse off than a slave. Slavery was thus a workable, if not
ideal, system. As in the Old, the New Testament nowhere calls for its
abolition. By the New Testament era, slavery was waning in the Roman
Empire, though there was still an enormous number of slaves. For Jesus
and the apostles to have called for slavery’s abolition would have been
to promote unemployment and social chaos. Further, the saving message of
the gospel would have been swallowed up in the call for social reform.
Eventually, the influence of Christianity helped bring an end to abusive
forms of slavery in the Roman Empire. (For a further discussion of
slavery, see Colossians and Philemon, MacArthur New Testament Commentary
[Chicago: Moody, 1992], 152–53, 201–35.)

Chris

Wow. That is a comprehensive post. Do you mind if I break mine up when I reply?

“Slavery was an integral social component of the Greco-Roman world in
the first century.”

Correct. The Roman world was a slave-based empire.

“Slaves were the employees who did the work for their wealthy masters.”

They also worked for the state as miners. Conditions were truly terrible and they wouldn’t have lived very long.

“It was a widespread scheme of employment.”

Um no. It was, in fact, a way to increase unemployment and thereby increase the number of people who were forced to sell themselves into slavery.

“In fact, the entire economic structure of the Roman Empire depended on it.”

Yes and no. Yes the Roman empire was in the same situation as that of the Southern states of the US after they had adopted slavery. Jefferson said it was like grabbing a wolf by the ears. Once you had done it how could you let go?

But slavery also inhibited technological innovation. For example Heiro invented a steam engine but it was never adopted because it would have made a slave’s life easier and who was interested in that?

The main difference between the two was in the racial nature of the pre-civil war south’s slavery. The Romans couldn’t have cared less which race their slaves came from. But apart from that the slavery was quite similar.

Both groups saw their slaves as property, bought and sold them. Their slaves had few rights. Were subject to sexual and physical violence. and slaves in both societies felt they would be better off dead than a slave.

electedbyHim

I am trying to identify your point. Be patient with me, I am not as well educated as everyone else on this site.

Chris

I wasn’t trying to be snarky. I really appreciate your thoroughness. Thank you.

electedbyHim

Your welcome

Chris

“In the Ancient Near East, much of the seasonal field work and
part-time project work was done by hired day laborers.”

Correct.

“Permanently employed domestic slaves served as managers, cooks, artisans, and teachers, becoming a part of the household, almost like family.”

That would very much depend upon the type of slavery under discussion. House slaves tended to be better treated than field slaves. Field slaves were better treated than mine slaves and so on.

Essentially if you had a skill you were usually better treated than a slave bought for his/her health and ability to perform physical labour.

“In many respects they resembled the indentured servants of the American colonial era.”

Incorrect. If I had an indentured servant and I murdered him I would be facing a murder charge. Why? Because indentured servants were still seen as human. Slaves, on the other hand, were things according to Roman law. They had the same rights as a table.

A stranger could kill a slave and all that would happen is that the owner could sue the stranger for damaging private property.

Chris

“Slaves were acquired in several different ways.”

Correct.

Some were people who had been captured. Others were prisoners, still others were children who had been sold by a parent – often because the father wanted money. As you point out others had been born into slavery or were purchases. It was also the case that, under Roman law, if you broke a law you could be made a temporary slave.

Chris

“Gentile slaves were not always so well treated, …”

Let’s examine that treatment for a moment. Under Jewish law a slave could be beaten to the point where they died – as long as their death took a day or two that was ok.

Under Roman law slaves weren’t even given that level of protection. Slaves were killed for the enjoyment of the mob – gladiators [who were all slaves]. They were raped. They were beaten. Historians like Tacitus and philosophers like Seneca tell us about slaves who were maimed or tortured on the whim of the owner. Even if none of this happened to a slave they lived in fear of it happening throughout their lives.

“Slaves had their food, clothing, and housing provided, along with a small wage and security.”

No they did not. That is a complete fable. Slaves were not paid. A slave in the Roman world could, after all their assigned work had been completed, hire themselves out for pay. But this money could be confiscated by their owner since, according to Roman law, everything the slave owned belonged to the owner.

Slaves were often kept naked, if the owner wished it. They were NOT given housing. In expensive villas slaves would often have a room only big enough for a bed assigned to them.

Finally there was no security. When slaves became too old or unhealthy to work they were thrown out and left to die.

sandraleesmith46

The BIBLE is the ultimate authority, not any human.

Chet

Please cite chapter and verse of the New Testament where slavery is condoned. Noting where such exists or existed is one thing, condoning such is quite another.

sandraleesmith46

God TOLERATED slavery, based on free will choice, never “condoned” it!

Grace Kim Kwon

Woman has no authority over man, which means woman cannot be ordained. All the denominations that ordain women are being disobedient to God.

golding4

In what context do you understand this truth, that women are to be silent in church….

Grace Kim Kwon

Yes, exactly! Amen.

sandraleesmith46

That had nothing to do with the “being silent in Chuch”; God can and does speak through women too; indeed, He even used a jenny once. And if a man is teaching something wrong, a woman may well be used to correct him; but they’re not to hold the offices of pastor.

IluvmyUSA

That, is truth absolutely well spoken!!!

Grace Kim Kwon

So true!!

golding4

I do agree with you in the sense that men and women are the same in Christ but in a true relationship that honors God, we have to go by what the bibles tells us, we know that women are teachers of children in the home, and even in Sunday School but God intended for the husband to be the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of man, and in all degrees of relationships between husband and wife, the wife must be subjective to her husband, but Heaven help that husband if he doesn’t love that wife, as Christ loves the church and when a husband shows that kind of love towards his wife, the wife is willing to be subjective, and a man with wisdom will always listen and even take advise from his wife, but No No NO, a woman can not be a pastor of a church, not a Godly Church anyway! Where they ordain women, those churches are nothing more then social clubs, the UM church being the biggest social club. The one in San Rafael, CA. I know for sure that Jesus walked away from, they had a doctorate degree in the pulpit and the man didn’t even know Jesus, denied the virgin birth, denied a difference between Heaven and Hell and called me a Jesus freak because I had the only in sight bible in the church and he preached out of a magazine the day I visited that church…..I will keep my Southern Baptist back ground where I hear the blood of Jesus taught and I see people coming to Christ..

sandraleesmith46

Be careful with your words; the context of Scripture is that the wife should submit; not be subject (slave) to her husband, and by HER choice. As for the churches; the Holy Spirit told me, in ’81, “the Glory has gone out”; at the time, I thought is was a single congregation over which I had been praying, but over time, I came to realize He meant the bulk of those institutions labeled “churches” in America, which have strayed far from Biblical teachings.

Michael Ellis

I disagree completely. Women in leadership and homosexuality are two distinct issues. You are taking those verses completely out of context

Noah Webster

Not so you are wrong

Michael Ellis

I’m afraid not. Your use of those verses in your comment are out of context.

Noah Webster

Your context is out of context

Noah Webster

Just saying pur of context without explanation is gibberish and used ad a weapon when one had no factual answer

golding4

so put them in context, and read them and you will know the truth.

Grace Kim Kwon

The denominations that ordain women go ahead and endorse and promote homosexuality and abortion-murder, except for some Charismatic churches. It’s not a co-incidence. Female ordination brings false doctrines and sexual confusions and sexual immorality. What they spread is a self-congratulating New Age and not Christianity.

Noah Webster

Indeed you are wise

Grace Kim Kwon

Thank you. Just observations.

golding4

Right ON my brother…..

Grace Kim Kwon

Thank you. I am a woman. Call me a sister if you are a Christian 😛

golding4

I am so sorry Sister Grace, Forgive me ! I really didn’t look at the name to close……but I will say by reading your posts that I know you as a sister that knows the Word of God, I myself have been in Christ for 50 years, I am now 83 years young, enjoy teaching His message of salvation to any who will listen to me….God Bless you Grace…..

Grace Kim Kwon

No, I’M very sorry! I’m sorry I wrote some wrong kind of comments towards you without knowing your faith and your contribution. I read from the most recent posts, not the other way. THANK YOU so much for being faithful unto the Lord for such a long time and raising our generations. The Lord greatly bless you, sir. I write to make the American kids here to help them respect God and their grandparents and parents. I know I’ve been rough, but political correct language never gets through to the well-fed spoiled bored secular kids of the former Christendom. I pray they meet Jesus and get saved.

golding4

You do know we are in the last times!!! Most of that generation that saw the spouting of the fig tree is gone already……some of us are still here, being 83, I have faith that I will see the rapture even. Jesus said that not all of us that see that spouting (May of 1948) will be gone until all is accomplished……so…..just maybe the world is already in the apostasy period spoken about in His Word…..It would be great if we could lead everyone to Jesus, but in these last times, we have three and four generations that have turned their backs on God….The beginning of all this is the democrats actually took God out of the schools and they want God out of everything, who do you think is running the democrat party, Satan took it over some time back. And you also know that most everyone is going to hell, I know, no body thinks they are going to hell, but most are, Jesus said, “Wide is the road to destruction (hell) and narrow is the path to life, and few there be, that find it. ((so the few find live (in Christ) and the majority do not take the narrow path, so you don’t have to worry about them, just remember, do all you can to lead other in the right direction but never take your eyes, ears, and eternal spirit off Jesus, always stay at His door posts waiting.

golding4

Do you also disagree with God!

Trilemma

“Men should learn the Word of God directly.”

That’s right. Men should close their Bibles, forget everything they’ve read and learn directly from God.

Grace Kim Kwon

? The Holy Bible is the Word of God. Americans’ boredom is a huge mental illness. Remember who you were.

Trilemma

The Holy Bible is not literally the Word of God. What you believe is the Word of God is your personal interpretation of an English interpretation of an ancient interpretation of what someone claims to be the Word of God they received directly from God. Why can’t people today get the Word of God directly from God?

Grace Kim Kwon

Because the Canon is closed. As you read the Holy Bible, the written Word of God, you hear from God. You must repent your sin, believe in His Son Jesus Christ as the Lord and Saviour, and ask Him to forgive your sin and save you. Romans 10. Ask God to make you understand His Word.

Trilemma

Who said the Canon is closed? If people hear from God when they read the Bible why is there so much disagreement among Christians?

Grace Kim Kwon

The OT was closed as Malachi had the last revelation and John the Baptist was the last prophet. Hebrews 1. The NT was closed as it was written only by the eye-witnesses and their direct associates. I Peter 1. Revelation 22. All other writings have been proven junkie comparing to the Canonical 66 Books of the Holy Bible. Christians never disagree on the essential doctrines. There are secondary doctrinal issues that allow some level of disagreements.

Trilemma

Hebrews 1 does not say Malachi had the last revelation or that John the Baptist was the last prophet.

Concerning the essentials. Many Christians do not believe God is triune. Many Christians do not believe there is a Hell. Many Christians do not believe in the penal substitutionary theory of the atonement. And many Christians do not believe homosexuality is a sin.

golding4

And the so called MANY CHRISTIANS aren’t Christians at all but just claim to be, they have never received a NEW Spirit and they don’t even know what the rebirth is but they do know how to attend cult churches that teach every odd thing except the true Word of God, Are you one of those so called Christians? who wants to live a sinful life and say; I’m not a Dirty Rotten Sinner…….I want you to know…..I was a dirty rotten sinner, that surrendered to God and admitted my sinfulness (of shame) to the Lord and asked Him to forgive me Lord and Wash me of my sin, I came away from that prayer crying and I felt clean for the first time in my adult life and I felt His arm on my shoulder, and I lost every friend I had, but they were the same and I was a new creation in the Lord, I was different and that is why I lost all my drinking buddies, but over the years, I gained 100 new friends for every one I lost…..God opened the door to a Christian college for me to attend, and today! I guess you can tell what I do, I will preach to any who will listen, Will you? or do you want to keep on denying God’s Truth as to what is sinful and what is right, if you had a new Spirit, you would know the truth, and it would set you free from your sinful thoughts.

Chris

“And the so called MANY CHRISTIANS aren’t Christians at all but just claim to be,…”

Ah yes the old song. They weren’t true Christians because they don’t believe the things you believe. But, here’s a shocking thought. Maybe, just maybe YOU are wrong. Maybe THEY are right. Ever considered that?

Grace Kim Kwon

Chris, no. There are essential doctrines in a religion. West’s Sodomic perversion is just a perversion and does not belong to any established religion. Read the Holy Bible.

golding4

Believing the basics 5 points of Christ…you are right if they don’t believe those points, then they are not Christians, because those points come under John 3:16….it’s not believing without knowing, it’s believing what is said about Jesus, would you not say that many claim to be Christian and only 1 out of 20 households go to church (as church members) and you do know what the apostasy is, Right

Chris

“…would you not say that many claim to be Christian…”

I wouldn’t know. I do know that some people on this site think that Christianity is so important they don’t actually practice it. I’ve read their posts. I’ve seen the insults.

I suppose what I am arguing is that more time should be spent, as the gospels put it, taking the log out of your own eye rather than the speck out of your brother’s.

“…and only 1 out of 20 households go to church (as church members) and you do know what the apostasy is, Right.”

Yep. Apostasy is someone challenging the status quo and making others uncomfortable. A little history. In the 19th century the vast majority of Christians in the southern US thought that Negroes should be slaves and that the bible supported slavery. Anyone who suggested otherwise would have been called an apostate. Roll on to the 1950’s where a large number of Christians believed in segregation. Bob Jones, from Bob Jones University fame, even expelled students who dated someone of another race. If anyone had raised their voices back then and said that the churches need to change they would have been considered an apostate. So not all new ideas should be dismissed with such a cry. ALL ideas should be considered on their own merits.

Chris

“Believing the basics 5 points of Christ…”

That were written ABOUT Christ by those who never KNEW Christ. You do know that the
gospels are anonymous documents written decades after Christ’s death, right?

“…you are right if they don’t believe those points,”

Actually that’s what YOU are saying. I’ll stick to the dictionary definition of
a Christian which is ‘Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.” [source: wordnik]

“then they are not Christians, because those points come under John 3:16….”

Well let’s look at the passage you cited. “For God loved the world in this way: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.”

And now the context “Various translations differ on whether this is a direct quote of Jesus or a comment of the narrator of the Gospel. For example, the Good News
Bible ends the quotation marks after verse 13 after which there is a footnote ‘The quotation may continue through verse 21.”

“…it’s not believing without knowing, it’s believing what is said about Jesus,…”

Correction. You are talking about believing what SOME people say about Jesus and
not others. Jews wrote about Jesus too. Would you care to believe what the Babylonian Talmud says about Jesus? The Romans mentioned Jesus as well. Will you believe what Tacitus wrote? I don’t think so.

The fact is all anyone has are four anonymous books written decades after Jesus died. Now you can trust those books, and may be right to do so but as a historian I tend to prefer writers who are known and to put things into their historical context.

Trilemma

What are the 5 points of Christ?

Trilemma

You’re defining, “Christian,” in terms of yourself. A Christian is someone who believes the same things you do. If they don’t, then they’re not true Christians.

MyLady1

REAL Christians don’t believe that the things God Almighty said are wrong, are right. REAL Christians belive what He said and try hard to practice it. Anyone can say they are a Christian, when they aren’t. You’ll know that they probably are when they are doing what God said in His Word.

Chris

“REAL Christians don’t believe that the things God Almighty said are wrong, are right.”

Except we don’t have the words that God said. What we have are the writings of men who CLAIMED that God spoke to them. Who says they are right?

golding4

You will know later and in your life time…..

Chris

How so?

Grace Kim Kwon

The Holy Bible is the Word of God. It talks about you. Psalm 14.

Trilemma

REAL Christians don’t believe all the things that God Almighty said are right, are right. So why should they believe all the things God said are wrong, are wrong?

Grace Kim Kwon

Hebrews 1 says, “God has in these last days spoken to us by His Son.” Jesus acknowledged the Jewish Bible of His day as the inerrant, perfect Word of God. Matthew 5. John the Baptist was testified as the greatest by Jesus, but John left no writing so the OT Canon is closed. Majority of Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, the salvation by believing in Jesus’ atoning death on the cross and His resurrection, Heaven and hell, and the sinfulness of sexual immorality including homosexuality; those who don’t are cults and apostates. You went to a social club, not a church. Revelation chapters 2-3.

golding4

There are 65 inspired by God books of the bible…….and 1 dictated called (The Revelation of Jesus Christ) …..as He told John in Revelation 1:11 What you see, write in a book, and send it to all the churches……plus (and The Lord took John and showed him what the future looked like) ( ) = my added words

Grace Kim Kwon

You are wrong. Read Revelation 1 and 22; it is the Word of God. The Holy Bible is 66 Books.

golding4

I am wrong? my post totaled 66 also, I jokingly said 65 inspired and 1 dictated by Jesus to John, and you call me wrong? that makes us even for me calling you a man but I said I was sorry for doing that.

Grace Kim Kwon

I’m sorry, I didn’t know what you really meant. It’s the same; all 66 Books in the Old and New Testament Bible are inspired by the Holy Spirit. II Timothy 3.

golding4

But it is true that Revelations is called the Revelations of Jesus Christ. and He did dictate it to John, took John to Heaven and showed John all things of the future and told John to write what he sees

Grace Kim Kwon

Yes, the Canon.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

( II Timothy 3)

golding4

Christians do!!!!!! for God wrote His law on our hearts, and we know right from wrong before we decide…..is what you are saying, is: I want prove of God……Isaiah 34:16,17 tells us to Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read; none of these books will fail, none shall need or want her mate; For my mouth has commanded the Word and My Spirit has gathered them. God has cast the lot for them, and His Hand has divided the word unto them by line; they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein……..And what the bibles does for us is in Proverbs 1:2,3,4..To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion…..So, what does your book do for you?

Chris

“Christians do!!!!!! for God wrote His law on our hearts, and we know right from wrong before we decide.”

Why just Christians? If God wrote this on people’s hearts shouldn’t it apply to everyone? Isn’t that supposed to be my conscience? Well my conscience, the ethical system I follow,and the religion I follow all say that there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality.

RELIGION…….isn’t what you think it is! and doesn’t strive after purity as in Christianity……Religion is man trying to reach up to God. and Christianity is not a religion, it’s God reaching down to man, I would be in hopes that you understand this Grace…..

Grace Kim Kwon

In a way, Christianity is a religion. Read also James 1. I understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m a believer, too. Are you Christian? Read John 3, Romans 10, i Corinthians 15 to know how to be saved.

golding4

Maybe it’s because you prefer to live that life and are determined to do your own thing regardless of what the bible truly says about that sin.

Chris

Ah another person who claims to know my motives. Can you tell my weight too? Or is your knowledge restricted to what you want to be true?

Grace Kim Kwon

Western atheists talk and act exactly the same like some photocopies, especially the young ones, having the same godless education and reading the same gurus’ same junks. That’s why you guys are destroying the homeland instead of establishing one, unlike your noble hard-working slender Christian ancestors.

Chris

No matter what they say they are the Christian fundie always talks the same and projects the same. You do know I’m NOT an atheist right? Or don’t you care about the truth anymore?

Grace Kim Kwon

But you do talk and behave like the Western atheists; therefore you are an atheist. Read Psalm 14 and John 3. It talks about you.

Chris

Not even slightly true. I follow Rossian deontology and Zoroastrian morality. I don’t seek to impose it on anyone but I do try to follow it.

But you seem to be busy telling me what I’m like rather than addressing my arguments. Could this be a red herring?

golding4

The law was written on your heart also, but you need a new spirit to be able to know your own heart, your conscience is seared because of always choosing the wrong direction in your life, you don’t feel guilt because of wrong choices anymore……

Chris

“The law was written on your heart also, …”

Good. Then my conscience, my ethical system and my religion all tell me the same thing.

“…but you need a new spirit to be
able to know your own heart, …”

Sorry but that doesn’t track. I was taught that our conscience makes us judgeable since we know right from wrong already. If we first need ‘a new spirit’ then we know no such thing and are therefore not judgeable.

“your conscience is seared because of always
choosing the wrong direction in your life, …”

Or yours is. How are we to know? We can’t rely on your book because you may e interpreting it the way you are because of your seared conscience. You sure you want to go this way? It leads to total uncertainty unless you assume that you’re right and everyone else is wrong unless they agree with you.

“…you don’t feel guilt
because of wrong choices anymore……”

Really? I’ve yet to see evidence of your remarkable telepathic abilities. I’m thinking of a number from one to 10. What is it?

Trilemma

If the law God writes on your heart says something different from what the law written in the Bible says, which do you go with?

James Nevel

WOW! That is all just WOW! please tell me you do not shepherd a flock or counsel professionally.

Grace Kim Kwon

Why? It’s objective observations. The Western nations got feminized because of female “ministers” and do not honor God nor protect women and children anymore but protect only pervs. I neither shepherd or counsel. Be a man and serve under a male pastor as all men should. Read the Holy Bible yourself.

golding4

Don’t you realize when your leg is being pulled!

Grace Kim Kwon

How? Stop bullying. America men are all supposed to be transparent and fair. That’s the American values. You guys are not American. Stop shaming your own forefathers. You guys need Christianity to be saved and be manly if you are men. Hear the Gospel and get saved. Read John chapter 3.

golding4

I will not judge your faith in Christ, I know that you are in Christ, but to say I am not an American! I don’t know where you are from, but I don’t believe you were born in America, I was……in fact my father’s people landed on the shores of this nation in 1629 and with another family called Ryder, they carved out of the wilderness a town named Strawberry Banke and there they build the first baptist church in America in 1645….My G,G,G,Grandfather was the last living survivor of the Boston Tea Party (with your name, you may not even know what that party was about) and my grandparents on my mother’s side are from the Crow Nation in MT. so stop insulting me, I am your brother in Christ! and I have been in Christ a lot longer then you and I am a America, Go Trump, Go. Are you from Viet Nam, with your name, you may be, I was over there in 64-67

Grace Kim Kwon

Yes, agreed. My previous comments were done when I misunderstood you. I thought you were with James Nevel. I’m sorry. I corrected my comments for you.

James Nevel

You stated you are a professor at a college, I would like to know what college?

golding4

I would too!

Grace Kim Kwon

Stop bullying online, you Non-Americans. Go back to your European caves as you wish. Bring the Holy Bible with you so that you would stay civilized there.

Grace Kim Kwon

I’m sorry if I misunderstand you and if your comment is without guile. I don’t always read a person’s all comments unless directed towards me. If you are Christian without guile, please consider my below comment as a general message to Western atheists or secularists and not to you.

Grace Kim Kwon

I didn’t. You are either lying or misinformed. You are Non-American because Americans don’t lie knowingly. Read George Washington and Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass and “Little Women” and “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” to become a real American.

0pus

Campus ministers are obsessed with trying to be cool and accepted by the young. When you’re listening for the mob, you can’t hear the voice of God.

Noah Webster

Heretic’s blasphemy divination demonic

Trilemma

She will be punished for breaking the rules to follow her convictions. That makes her a martyr.

Vince

oh, please.
You are such drama queens.

Chris

Oh, please you are so dismissive of any view with which you don’t agree.

Chris

Oh please you are so dismissive.

Charles

She’ll be punished for not following the Word of God.

Trilemma

Where in the Bible does it say she can’t officiate a same sex wedding of two women?

yabruf

Leviticus 20:13.

Sodomite won’t be officiating anything from the grave….lol

J J

Martyrs are DEAD, doofus. She’s still very much alive.

Trilemma

The definition of martyr from the online Cambridge Dictionary:

a person who suffers very much or is killed because of their religious or political beliefs, and is often admired because of it:

A person doesn’t have to die to be a martyr.

Charles

“But I also knew that saying ‘no’ to one of my best friends would cost me my integrity and my soul.”

Boy, could she get that anymore backwards?

Grace Kim Kwon

Exactly. A filthy humanism’s abyss.

dtom1955

This women obviously has no clue as too what’s going to cost her, her soul.

golding4

She has the ability to repent just as you did, after all, I was the worse of sinners and He allowed my repentance and gave me a new Spirit. a new life….so why not even her?

yabruf

These Methodist are ridiculous. If it were a Baptist church this sodomite would have been tossed out on her ear the minute she “came out”.

Chris

Nah. That should have happened to all the fundies long ago.

yabruf

Lol speak for yourself. My pastor had to physically throw a sodomite out of our church. He was all dolled up in a wig and dress 🙂

And yes it is a Baptist church! Unfortunately even those are being compromised by the perverts.

Chris

I’m not talking about your pastor throwing out homosexuals like Jesus did [in every fundie’s imagination]. I’m talking about the pastor throwing out ego-worshipping hypocrites.

Remember Jesus declared fundies are the children of the devil.

James Nevel

My first thought is who care? You have a Bishop and several other clergy who have been allowed to continue without any “real” repercussions, why her? The UMC needs to take the log out of heir own eye before they see it in others. My second thought is 3 out of 1400 filed complaints, what does that really say? My final and third thought is realy a question more than thought, Has anyone looked at the “Reconciling Ministry” web page? If the congregations listed is any indication of the UMC future kiss it goodbye!

golding4

Reconciling Ministries Network is committed to policy change and the creation of long-term solutions and practices that create full inclusion in The United Methodist Church and our broader society. RMN works for full equality in membership, ordination, and marriage for God’s lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender children.

sandraleesmith46

How sad that the “churches” today are blatantly rejecting the Gospel and laws of the very God they claim to serve. NOWHERE does Jesus, or anyone else condone homosexual behavior as “okay” with God. And nowhere is a woman condoned as a minister of that Gospel in Church hierarchy! So on all fronts this woman is in the wrong.

http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

Horrors! Marrying two people who love each other. We certainly don’t want that!

yabruf

Says the pedophile to the child…..Lol

http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

What has pedophilia to do with it? While I know that religiously biased website show “studies” that support your view, real science finds that:

The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.

If you want to read the scientific view (which I seriously doubt), just copy all or part of the quote and google. It is located at psychology dot ucdavis’ page.

I didn’t think you would read the real science. That is why you are still a fundamentalist.

J J

So you’re OK with a man marrying his daughter.

“Love is never wrong.” That’s what homosexuals say.

You need a hobby, Methuselah.

Chris

In the case of a man marrying his daughter the question of real consent would have to be raised. But if it’s a brother and sister the only problem would be the increased chance of genetic abnormality. But as far as morality goes I don’t see a problem and fundies certainly shouldn’t. Abraham, was married to his half-sister after all.

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