BoF should work like RJW, provide shuffle and have a CD and RJW should just be damage like BoF is now.

Talents should be options that are either difficult to make or vary dependent on the scenario. As it stands now, with RJW providing shuffle that feels mandatory and not interesting. BoF is fun and we already have it, we just barely ever get to use it. So, if RJW was turned into just a dps ability and made to hit harder with a longer CD, then the 90 tier would have a burst damage option (RJW), a longer damage option (Xuen), and a movement/AoE damage option. We put the choice back in the 90 tree and give us the ability we all love, BoF.

In other words, tank the tanking utility out of the l90 tier. I don't see this as the right answer to the problem IF it is indeed a problem.

The problem, as you identify it, is that Breath of Fire is just stupid AoE with no defensive upside, but is this a bad thing? I get that brewmasters require buff uptimes in order to be effectively tanking vs raid bosses, but many brewmaster abilities are irrelevant to raid bosses (Clash, I'm looking at you!) and that situation (it's a boss!) is the situation where trading survivability for damage is a bad idea anyways.

I suppose another way of looking at it is this: Do monks need another addition to their AoE rotation? It's clear from the recent buffs that using Keg Smash as the primary AoE tool is intended, and that it hits like a beast means that in full mitigation mode there really can't be a lot of room for more AoE that can mitigate damage, especially given that the only time you DO Breath of Fire is in conjunction with Keg Smash (well Drunken Haze, technically.) So if BoF gets a defensive boost, does that mean Keg Smash has to take an offensive dunk in order to make up for the additional use of Breath of Fire? And then if that's the case, does BoK or Jab or Tiger Palm have to be buffed in order to make up for the loss of damage from Keg Smash?

And if that's the case, won't that teeter WW and MW off balance?

Suggesting a buff to a class that can do something very well (Monks have NO problems with AoE threat whatsoever) is never a straightforward process, and 'because this ability does not help me do what it is not intended to help me do' isn't a good reason.

EDIT: A cup of coffee in my hand might help me understand what the real issue is then. It is said that monks NEVER want to trade survivability for damage. I don't disagree with that, and I think the issue there is because of the overreliance on active buffs compared to the other tanks. Give the monk a bit more baseline survivability, and suddenly you're looking at situations where adding dps is a viable option. It's not a simple discussion, and while I -do- agree the ability has little niche in endgame content, I can't write it off. It's very usable while questing, and perhaps that is its intention.

In other words, tank the tanking utility out of the l90 tier. I don't see this as the right answer to the problem IF it is indeed a problem.

The problem, as you identify it, is that Breath of Fire is just stupid AoE with no defensive upside, but is this a bad thing? I get that brewmasters require buff uptimes in order to be effectively tanking vs raid bosses, but many brewmaster abilities are irrelevant to raid bosses (Clash, I'm looking at you!) and that situation (it's a boss!) is the situation where trading survivability for damage is a bad idea anyways.

I suppose another way of looking at it is this: Do monks need another addition to their AoE rotation? It's clear from the recent buffs that using Keg Smash as the primary AoE tool is intended, and that it hits like a beast means that in full mitigation mode there really can't be a lot of room for more AoE that can mitigate damage, especially given that the only time you DO Breath of Fire is in conjunction with Keg Smash (well Drunken Haze, technically.) So if BoF gets a defensive boost, does that mean Keg Smash has to take an offensive dunk in order to make up for the additional use of Breath of Fire? And then if that's the case, does BoK or Jab or Tiger Palm have to be buffed in order to make up for the loss of damage from Keg Smash?

And if that's the case, won't that teeter WW and MW off balance?

Suggesting a buff to a class that can do something very well (Monks have NO problems with AoE threat whatsoever) is never a straightforward process, and 'because this ability does not help me do what it is not intended to help me do' isn't a good reason.

It's not about AoE threat, it's about making BoF actually something we would want to use more within PvE content. Essentially, making BoF provide mitigation would make the brewmaster AoE / single target priority similar to the Cataclysm Paladin model of using SotR for single target damage and... I don't remember the name of it, but it increased all holy damage done by 30% for x seconds depending on how much holy power you used.. the point being, it would simply take over for AoE situations, and then Blizzard could potentially lower its damage to make it fit a bit better. Keg Smash shouldn't be nerfed, as it is used regardless whether we are fighting one target or twenty.

We only have one distinction between single target and AoE, and that is the use of SCK and RJW if you are talented into it. BoF is such an awesome, signature ability of the brewmaster that it feels rather bad to not have the ability to use it fairly regularly and if we DO, we're punished for it due to the necessity of Shuffle uptime.

Saying that our process of thought is that we want BoF changed 'because this ability does not help me do what it is not intended to help me do' is the wrong way of looking at it. BoF is a signature ability of the brewmaster. Why then, would we want it to be shunted into a place where its only really useful when you outgear content? Wouldn't it be nicer to be able to use it as part of your multi-target priority? It's not about saying that it doesn't do what we want it to do despite its intention, it's about changing the intended use of it so it is more useful and usable more often with a consequence of less magnitude than we have now.

EDIT: A cup of coffee in my hand might help me understand what the real issue is then. It is said that monks NEVER want to trade survivability for damage. I don't disagree with that, and I think the issue there is because of the overreliance on active buffs compared to the other tanks. Give the monk a bit more baseline survivability, and suddenly you're looking at situations where adding dps is a viable option. It's not a simple discussion, and while I -do- agree the ability has little niche in endgame content, I can't write it off. It's very usable while questing, and perhaps that is its intention.

That is a big part of the issue, we are severely punished for letting any of our active mitigation abilities drop and right now most of us don't have enough haste to comfortably fuel them and work in extra stuff that doesn't contribute to the tanking side. Right now if you do have the extra Chi the level 30 talents are more appealing because healing yourself+raid adds to your survivability and BoF is just a gout of DPS with no benefit to your main job which is tanking and staying alive.

I do think Blizz will probably do a armor for some avoidance trade off with us eventually but it wont close the gap enough to where allowing our active mitigation to drop is acceptable unless the content is trivial anyways.

BoF needs a buff of some kind (and I'm not referring to damage) to make it appealing as a choice for current content. I really doubt Blizz made such a cool ability with it's only intention of use being to clear their stupid daily's slightly faster.

Only a related note I noticed in my logs that I did use BoF when I ended up 3 dog tanking but I probably should have been saving the Chi for Chi Wave instead considering the raid damage going out. Just got caught up in wanting to deeps them down I guess =P

The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

In other words, tank the tanking utility out of the l90 tier. I don't see this as the right answer to the problem IF it is indeed a problem.

The problem, as you identify it, is that Breath of Fire is just stupid AoE with no defensive upside, but is this a bad thing? I get that brewmasters require buff uptimes in order to be effectively tanking vs raid bosses, but many brewmaster abilities are irrelevant to raid bosses (Clash, I'm looking at you!) and that situation (it's a boss!) is the situation where trading survivability for damage is a bad idea anyways.

I suppose another way of looking at it is this: Do monks need another addition to their AoE rotation? It's clear from the recent buffs that using Keg Smash as the primary AoE tool is intended, and that it hits like a beast means that in full mitigation mode there really can't be a lot of room for more AoE that can mitigate damage, especially given that the only time you DO Breath of Fire is in conjunction with Keg Smash (well Drunken Haze, technically.) So if BoF gets a defensive boost, does that mean Keg Smash has to take an offensive dunk in order to make up for the additional use of Breath of Fire? And then if that's the case, does BoK or Jab or Tiger Palm have to be buffed in order to make up for the loss of damage from Keg Smash?

And if that's the case, won't that teeter WW and MW off balance?

Suggesting a buff to a class that can do something very well (Monks have NO problems with AoE threat whatsoever) is never a straightforward process, and 'because this ability does not help me do what it is not intended to help me do' isn't a good reason.

EDIT: A cup of coffee in my hand might help me understand what the real issue is then. It is said that monks NEVER want to trade survivability for damage. I don't disagree with that, and I think the issue there is because of the overreliance on active buffs compared to the other tanks. Give the monk a bit more baseline survivability, and suddenly you're looking at situations where adding dps is a viable option. It's not a simple discussion, and while I -do- agree the ability has little niche in endgame content, I can't write it off. It's very usable while questing, and perhaps that is its intention.

We don't get to use BoF the way it is hardly at all. By that I mean, maybe once a fight. What I'm asking for doesn't give us an extra ability, it just makes BoF work like RJW does now (30 sec CD, adds shuffle). In return, RJW can be just a strong burst dps that is no longer mandatory for tanks. Tanking talents are basically tier 75.*90 is for dps.

We don't get to use BoF the way it is hardly at all. By that I mean, maybe once a fight. What I'm asking for doesn't give us an extra ability, it just makes BoF work like RJW does now (30 sec CD, adds shuffle). In return, RJW can be just a strong burst dps that is no longer mandatory for tanks. Tanking talents are basically tier 75.*90 is for dps.

How is adding shuffle to BoF NOT an extra ability? That sounds to me EXACTLY like an extra ability. Doesn't matter if something else also has that same ability.

This is partially why I am reluctant to start suggesting BoF needs alterations--if the problem is a lack of opportunity to trade survivability for damage because of the content you run then you need to address the real problem. If it's because BoF doesn't do -enough- damage in those situations, then why ask for additional utility?

If the sole argument is 'I don't get to push this button in Mogu'shan Vaults' then I can point to tons of other buttons you have you don't get to use. Perhaps it's because they're tools you don't need for raid bosses. What about finishing packs of trash faster in challenge modes once ToD is on cooldown? What about questing? Looking at one single scenario of one single aspect of the game is an incomplete look at an ability.

Originally Posted by Scarjack

Tanking talents are basically tier 75.*90 is for dps.

How is this an improvement over having talent selections tanks DO care about? Some tanks are taking Chi Torpedo into heroic raids and doing very well with it. Others are finding the taunt of Xuen to be well worth their time, based on the content they run.

In other words... the L90 talents are not as locked-in-stone as you seem to think it is, and people are finding a lot of success with all three, appropriate to what they are doing. Removing one of those talents because you perceive the tier to be cut and dry to solve a problem that you perceive but is actually some other completely different issue is very near-sighted and is not good for the game, in my opinion. This is simply square peg/round hole issue.

How is adding shuffle to BoF NOT an extra ability? That sounds to me EXACTLY like an extra ability. Doesn't matter if something else also has that same ability.

This is partially why I am reluctant to start suggesting BoF needs alterations--if the problem is a lack of opportunity to trade survivability for damage because of the content you run then you need to address the real problem. If it's because BoF doesn't do -enough- damage in those situations, then why ask for additional utility?

While I do see where you are coming from, there are likely many other things that could be done to deal with Brewmasters not wanting to sacrifice active mitigation for AoE damage. The other solutions are all extremely convoluted and will likely require a hell of a lot more balancing than simply adding the condition that BoF will give Shuffle when targets hit > X or when targets hit > X and also when Dizzying Haze is on the target.

Quite simply put, adjusting BoF to provide shuffle would be quick and relatively painless and likely require far less balancing than adjusting our passive mitigation to the point where we can weave in BoF on AoE packs without out-gearing content.

How is adding shuffle to BoF NOT an extra ability? That sounds to me EXACTLY like an extra ability. Doesn't matter if something else also has that same ability.

This is partially why I am reluctant to start suggesting BoF needs alterations--if the problem is a lack of opportunity to trade survivability for damage because of the content you run then you need to address the real problem. If it's because BoF doesn't do -enough- damage in those situations, then why ask for additional utility?

If the sole argument is 'I don't get to push this button in Mogu'shan Vaults' then I can point to tons of other buttons you have you don't get to use. Perhaps it's because they're tools you don't need for raid bosses. What about finishing packs of trash faster in challenge modes once ToD is on cooldown? What about questing? Looking at one single scenario of one single aspect of the game is an incomplete look at an ability.

How is this an improvement over having talent selections tanks DO care about? Some tanks are taking Chi Torpedo into heroic raids and doing very well with it. Others are finding the taunt of Xuen to be well worth their time, based on the content they run.

In other words... the L90 talents are not as locked-in-stone as you seem to think it is, and people are finding a lot of success with all three, appropriate to what they are doing. Removing one of those talents because you perceive the tier to be cut and dry to solve a problem that you perceive but is actually some other completely different issue is very near-sighted and is not good for the game, in my opinion. This is simply square peg/round hole issue.

I seriously think we are having different conversations.

RJW does X. I want BoF to do X, and RJW to do Y instead. That is how its not an extra ability. Its replacing one. Me and most other brews would rather use BoF over RJW because its more iconic. You are making this a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger thing then what has been suggested.

Not too mention, you talk about the awesome abilities in the 90 tier for tanks...except for the one I want replaced with BoF so all three can be excellent choices for tanks.

While I do see where you are coming from, there are likely many other things that could be done to deal with Brewmasters not wanting to sacrifice active mitigation for AoE damage.

And that's why I disagree--They clearly WANT tanks to choose between active mitigation and damage. So saying 'we could solve this issue by removing the need to choose' means you're ignoring the design choice and removing depth from the class just so Breath of Fire can do something tanky. The issue is that the active mitigation for monks is SO necessary to not tank the floor that the choice does not meaningfully exist and might not exist even if you overgear content. If -that- is the issue, then the solution should be found for that.

Monks are pretty damned good at AoE damage without Breath of Fire, so making it part of the rotation WOULD mean nerfs for other things. Look at what happened to DKs--they got nerfed when they got out of hand dealing damage. So asking for a straight up buff so you can get more damage in when you're one of the best tanks at dealing damage is not a very valid stance to take, is it? You have to take a trade-off; is it going to be in your survivability to use the ability (which you arguably have now) or is it going to be in changing your rotation to accomodate the ability?

And if you DO do the latter, what do you do when you want to trade survivability for damage?

The other solutions are all extremely convoluted and will likely require a hell of a lot more balancing than simply adding the condition that BoF will give Shuffle when targets hit > X or when targets hit > X and also when Dizzying Haze is on the target.

Quite simply put, adjusting BoF to provide shuffle would be quick and relatively painless and likely require far less balancing than adjusting our passive mitigation to the point where we can weave in BoF on AoE packs without out-gearing content.

But the thing is... the latter is the solution to the actual problem. Giving BoF shuffle is easy, yes. So's doubling the damage on Keg Smash or making BoK a cleave. But that doesn't make these the right things to do to fix the problem, because they DON'T fix the problem, because the problem is NOT a lack of AoE damage during survivability mode. The problem is a lack of survivability in damage mode.

You want to have your cake and eat it too; this is not going to happen so instead of clinging to this notion that monks need an AoE survivability button (we really don't) instead, why not fix the core problem of monks and that is their base survivability when they don't have active mitigation up? That would solve your issue and would make early stuns in pulls less of a trainwreck, which would solve TWO of monk's problems.

You want to have your cake and eat it too; this is not going to happen so instead of clinging to this notion that monks need an AoE survivability button (we really don't) instead, why not fix the core problem of monks and that is their base survivability when they don't have active mitigation up? That would solve your issue and would make early stuns in pulls less of a trainwreck, which would solve TWO of monk's problems.

Yeah or they could just add shuffle to breath of fire. You spend two chi on single target shuffle from BoK, you spend two chi on breath of fire and also get a 6 second shuffle. It's an easy change, it makes sense and doesn't require them to rebalance our base survivability because you can't handle stuns in challenge mode properly. People enjoy the active tanking style of monks, it should remain as it is imho.

That argument aside, the real question that has to be asked is are we balanced if we can rotate keg smash, breath of fire and spinning crane kick without sacrificing shuffle and I believe the answer is no. Just look at feng heroic damage on the shadow phase adds, brewmaster obliterates what anyone else is capable of and that's a pattern you'll see on any fight where we can freely AoE with a good amount of vengeance.

I think Disgruntler is right in saying that if we could sub BoK for BoF in multi-target scenarios and retain high shuffle uptime it will inevitably lead to attack power coefficient nerfs on keg smash/BoF after people actually realize just how much AoE we're capable of. Hell those nerfs might even happen down the pipeline anyways.

I think Disgruntler is right in saying that if we could sub BoK for BoF in multi-target scenarios and retain high shuffle uptime it will inevitably lead to attack power coefficient nerfs on keg smash/BoF after people actually realize just how much AoE we're capable of. Hell those nerfs might even happen down the pipeline anyways.

I don't think I remember claiming I wanted BoF as it is exactly right now either though. I said I would like to see it grant Shuffle, it wouldn't even need to be baseline, it could be through a Glyph which then affects the damage output. What I want is a reliable way of keeping shuffle whilst AoE'ing without having to resort to simply rolling in a RJW when it is up and BoK the rest of the time. It just feels like I should be using BoF on AoE pulls.

Similarly, if the argument is that Blizzard WANTS us to give up survivability for damage, then Paladin tanks were fine before they were changed to have more damage output while using Seal of Insight. (I realise comparing different classes is considered a taboo, but the point was made that the decision to have damage or survivability is something we need to be making. However, Paladins have higher passive mitigation than Monks, whilst also outputting the same damage whether they are using Seal of Truth or Seal of Insight) Why is it that Monks who seem to have the most active mitigation get screwed when trying to output more damage on AoE?

Similarly, if the argument is that Blizzard WANTS us to give up survivability for damage, then Paladin tanks were fine before they were changed to have more damage output while using Seal of Insight. (I realise comparing different classes is considered a taboo, but the point was made that the decision to have damage or survivability is something we need to be making. However, Paladins have higher passive mitigation than Monks, whilst also outputting the same damage whether they are using Seal of Truth or Seal of Insight) Why is it that Monks who seem to have the most active mitigation get screwed when trying to output more damage on AoE?

But we're talking about AoE damage so I don't think mentioning seal of truth and insight has any relevance in this particular discussion.

Go to worldoflogs and look at any feng heroic kill and filter the damage taken for Soul Fragments by actor.

There's really no contest. If you don't use breath of fire at all and stick to Keg smash/Black out kick/SCK brewmasters are still going to do the most AoE damage and it's for that reason I don't think breath of fire should have shuffle.

But we're talking about AoE damage so I don't think mentioning seal of truth and insight has any relevance in this particular discussion.

I disagree with this statement, simply due to the fact that Paladin AoE is mostly dependent on Holy Wrath, Consecrate and Hammer of the Righteous. The seal itself has very little to do with their AoE (except for the fact Seal of Insight procs like all hell on AoE, increasing their survivability in the process. Kind of like what Shuffle on BoF would do. See what I did there?)

I am not disputing that we have very strong AoE as it stands. I even went to the point of saying that BoF could be nerfed down in damage to make up for the fact that it is giving us Shuffle (which could be done very easily through a glyph meaning if you DON'T want to do it, and want to stick with a more powerful BoF and keep shuffle up with BoK weaving, then you CAN) I thought the whole premise of the Glyphs and Talents this expansion is to give more options, why is it that giving the OPTION to have Shuffle from BoF at reduced damage seems to be such a hated idea by some?

I'd like to keep this simple, as I feel some of this conversation is getting a bit technical for my simple self. Monks have much more pressing issues that need to be addressed regarding our mitigation. Most notably, as some have mentioned, would be some sort of Armor increase, or atleast -something- to help us when stunned. Those seem to be two of the more popular issues.

Your idea is fun, and you make valid points man. The fact is though, adding Shuffle to BoF does -nothing- for us, but allow us to add a bit of AoE DPS to our mitigation rotation. It's been stated up and down: AoE Threat/Damage is -not- an issue for us. Pull Group -> Keg Smash -> RJW gives us AoE Damage and an application of Shuffle to start us off on the right foot. Throw in Leg Sweep / Ox Charge immediately after and you're pretty much set to go full blown rotation.

Here's the lowdown: Sure, many of us would love to have Shuffle added to BoF, it would be a nice little bonus. But this is a very important period of time for the Monk class as a whole, and if I were to open my Patch Notes, and see Shuffle added to BoF, and NO actual mitigation tweaks, I'd be pretty pissed. There's much more pressing things that need to be addressed before this.

If you suggested something like 'Give Power Guard a 5% armor increase per stack' I'd be so on board with you.

why is it that giving the OPTION to have Shuffle from BoF at reduced damage seems to be such a hated idea by some?

Because adding more AoE damage to the top tank in terms of AoE damage during survivability rotations is going to REQUIRE a nerf to the biggest part of that AoE rotation, which also nerfs single target threat, which is not a good trade-off for 'I would like to use Breath of Fire more' when fixing the ACTUAL problems with the class will allow you to use Breath of Fire more as it is now without nerfing a damn thing.

When I'm pulling in heroics, the only time I'm worried about my survivability is when I'm stunned out of shuffling. The rest of the time I have LOTS of opportunities to breath fire should I desire to speed things up. I don't know how well other tanks deal with this in MoP, to be honest, but they have survival woven into their bonus armor. We don't, and I don't think the 25% damage reduction to everything makes up for that.

For example the Ribscrushers in Mogu'Shan Palace cast a whirlwind that will annihilate any melee you have in one tick, so having the breath glyph means they're free to stun/interrupt the casters doing 150k lightning bolts, while i can kite the rest of the mobs and interrupt every whirlwind.

Similar thing in stormstout, you can interrupt all the suds casts from the alementals with a stun rotation from the melee thrown in and they never have to run out.

But i do think it should grant some shuffle. There's really not much time to use breath of fire as our AoE chi dump when we have to keep shuffle up too.

***The damage numbers I'm about to use are made up for ease of explaining this.***

RJW

ABILITY

CURRENT

CHANGE

LvL 90 Talent

LvL 90 Talent

AoE

Frontal Cone

Frontal Cone

Damage

1000

2000

CD

30sec

None

Cost

2 Chi

2 Chi

Extra

Shuffle

None

BoF

ABILITY

CURRENT

CHANGE

Learned Skill

Learned Skill

AoE

Frontal Cone

Frontal Cone

Damage

2000

1000

CD

None

30sec

Cost

2 Chi

2 Chi

Extra

None

Shuffle

The reasons for doing this are:

1. Allowing us to use BoF, which is a cool and iconic ability.
2. Frees up the lvl 90 tier, so taking RJW isn't more or less mandatory. Plus it adds further tough decision making to the tier by giving us the choice of:
- a burst damage option/AoE (RJW)
- a more sustained damage CD (Xuen)
- a movement based/AoE option (Chi Torpedo)
3. By allowing us a freer lvl 90 tier, we can use Xuen for avoidance, or Chi Torpedo for survivability or RJW for threat.

We don't lose any abilities but we gain better access to lvl 90 talents while getting to use the coolest spell we have BoF. Win-win.

***The damage numbers I'm about to use are made up for ease of explaining this.***

RJW

ABILITY

CURRENT

CHANGE

LvL 90 Talent

LvL 90 Talent

AoE

Frontal Cone

Frontal Cone

Damage

1000

2000

CD

30sec

None

Cost

2 Chi

2 Chi

Extra

Shuffle

None

BoF

ABILITY

CURRENT

CHANGE

Learned Skill

Learned Skill

AoE

Frontal Cone

Frontal Cone

Damage

2000

1000

CD

None

30sec

Cost

2 Chi

2 Chi

Extra

None

Shuffle

The reasons for doing this are:

1. Allowing us to use BoF, which is a cool and iconic ability.
2. Frees up the lvl 90 tier, so taking RJW isn't more or less mandatory. Plus it adds further tough decision making to the tier by giving us the choice of:
- a burst damage option/AoE (RJW)
- a more sustained damage CD (Xuen)
- a movement based/AoE option (Chi Torpedo)
3. By allowing us a freer lvl 90 tier, we can use Xuen for avoidance, or Chi Torpedo for survivability or RJW for threat.

We don't lose any abilities but we gain better access to lvl 90 talents while getting to use the coolest spell we have BoF. Win-win.

No one is listening to what I said lol, BoF could add 3 seconds to shuffle, or jab in Brewmaster costs 35 energy, both will solve the issue.

No one is listening to what I said lol, BoF could add 3 seconds to shuffle, or jab in Brewmaster costs 35 energy, both will solve the issue.

I read what you said, I just didn't prefer it to my solution.

In fact, I don't see how your solution solves the OP's issue. Why would anyone use 2 chi on BoF for a 3 sec shuffle when they can use the same 2 chi for RJW for a full duration shuffle? Again the point is to make BoF usable because its a fun and cool looking spell.