Another link, this one to Thorn's account of the workings of Bellerophon colony's Well of Souls, by which an iteration of a consciousness-shard is fused with a soulbound construct's organo/technomagical shell:viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1363&p=74263#p74197

Posting here a piece of discussion on Kristallac/Koskatep/Kundrak between me and RonJN as it will be relevant fof Grondheim:
RobJN:
We know, since this level is "higher up" than Kristallac, that it came to be long after that city was buried. Is it possible that these Dark Fey (the duke and his entourage) were exiled from Kristallac at its height, and have been seeking to return there to retrieve/awaken its secrets? It would be an interesting twist that the PCs would need the aid of the Dark Fey in order to activate or discover whatever secrets may be buried in Kristallac
STURM:
Good idea, I've added an hint here and in the history of 1664 BC. We'll have to see in Kristallac what this could be...Note that I wrote in the original issue #1 that the dark fairies did not know of Ixion's temple at the time of their arrival and Elienor indeed discovered it only a thousand years ago. But the Queen of Grondheim knew of it and probably did not want to share this knowledge with Elienor.. That could be the reason why she exiled the dark fairies. Maybe she defeated Elienor somehow or tricked her into searching Ashira's tomb somewhere else in the multiverse.
That would also explain why the dark fairies in 1664 BC did not know of Ashira's tomb.
Where is now the Queen of Grondheim? Could she be now a prisoner of the Ice Queen/Elienor?
I'll copy all this discussion in the Grondheim thread to avoid it being lost...

Relevant History from issue 1 of Threshold magazine:
2.504 BC: The Inti, lead by the church of Ixion, occupy the ruins and rebuild the city of Koskatepetl.
2.379 BC: The Queen of Grondheim conquers the city, renaming it Krystallac. Just a few years later sidhe priests discover the existence of the inner temple and begin a century long negotiation with the Sollux and the Brutemen below to gain access to the artifact.
2.282 BC: As the Queen grows impatient about the unwillingness of Ixion to compromise, she sends her best troops to open the temple. Inti troops soon attack the place, and Taymora intervenes shortly thereafter. This is the beginning of the War of the Empires, or the War of Southern Grondheim, that will last decades and will devastate the region. Mogreth intervenes as well a few years later.
2.080 BC: In a time of crisis in Grondheim, Taymora, and Intua, lizardmen and troglodytes escaped from the Mogreth occupy Krystallac and keep it for a hundred years.
1.976 BC: After a long siege Taymora conquers Krystallac and renames it Kosmoteiros. Nyx knows about Ixion’s artifact but rather than try to steal or destroy it she decides to exploit the magical aura of the place to build her own strongest artifact that will bring fulfillment of her Dream.
1.777 BC: To prevent Kosmoteiros from falling into the hands of Thanatos, the priests of Nyx destroy the city with a terrible earthquake. Thousands die and the place is abandoned for many years as seismic activity increases in the area.
1.664 BC: After the destruction of Taymora, fairies of the Unseelie court take possession of the place and try to use the Starlake, but do not know of the hidden temple of Ixion below.
1.597 BC: Lord Keiros, a Tal nosferatu and follower of Nyx, conquers Koskatep from the dark fairies. Vampiric followers of Thanatos attack several times but are defeated.

Sturm wrote:Posting here a piece of discussion on Kristallac/Koskatep/Kundrak between me and RonJN as it will be relevant fof Grondheim:
RobJN:
We know, since this level is "higher up" than Kristallac, that it came to be long after that city was buried. Is it possible that these Dark Fey (the duke and his entourage) were exiled from Kristallac at its height, and have been seeking to return there to retrieve/awaken its secrets? It would be an interesting twist that the PCs would need the aid of the Dark Fey in order to activate or discover whatever secrets may be buried in Kristallac
STURM:
Good idea, I've added an hint here and in the history of 1664 BC. We'll have to see in Kristallac what this could be...Note that I wrote in the original issue #1 that the dark fairies did not know of Ixion's temple at the time of their arrival and Elienor indeed discovered it only a thousand years ago. But the Queen of Grondheim knew of it and probably did not want to share this knowledge with Elienor.. That could be the reason why she exiled the dark fairies. Maybe she defeated Elienor somehow or tricked her into searching Ashira's tomb somewhere else in the multiverse.
That would also explain why the dark fairies in 1664 BC did not know of Ashira's tomb.
Where is now the Queen of Grondheim? Could she be now a prisoner of the Ice Queen/Elienor?
I'll copy all this discussion in the Grondheim thread to avoid it being lost...

Relevant History from issue 1 of Threshold magazine:
2.504 BC: The Inti, lead by the church of Ixion, occupy the ruins and rebuild the city of Koskatepetl.
2.379 BC: The Queen of Grondheim conquers the city, renaming it Krystallac. Just a few years later sidhe priests discover the existence of the inner temple and begin a century long negotiation with the Sollux and the Brutemen below to gain access to the artifact.
2.282 BC: As the Queen grows impatient about the unwillingness of Ixion to compromise, she sends her best troops to open the temple. Inti troops soon attack the place, and Taymora intervenes shortly thereafter. This is the beginning of the War of the Empires, or the War of Southern Grondheim, that will last decades and will devastate the region. Mogreth intervenes as well a few years later.
2.080 BC: In a time of crisis in Grondheim, Taymora, and Intua, lizardmen and troglodytes escaped from the Mogreth occupy Krystallac and keep it for a hundred years.
1.976 BC: After a long siege Taymora conquers Krystallac and renames it Kosmoteiros. Nyx knows about Ixion’s artifact but rather than try to steal or destroy it she decides to exploit the magical aura of the place to build her own strongest artifact that will bring fulfillment of her Dream.
1.777 BC: To prevent Kosmoteiros from falling into the hands of Thanatos, the priests of Nyx destroy the city with a terrible earthquake. Thousands die and the place is abandoned for many years as seismic activity increases in the area.
1.664 BC: After the destruction of Taymora, fairies of the Unseelie court take possession of the place and try to use the Starlake, but do not know of the hidden temple of Ixion below.
1.597 BC: Lord Keiros, a Tal nosferatu and follower of Nyx, conquers Koskatep from the dark fairies. Vampiric followers of Thanatos attack several times but are defeated.

Been doing quite a bit of brainstorming with Chimpman on some of these details, Sturm, and I've been exploring some options for the layout of the capital city of Gondheim.

I was initially inspired by those huge crystals that were found growing in a mine in Mexico. The names of some of those caverns are simply too evocative not to use: "The Queen's Eye." "The Candle Cave." "The Cave of Swords." Perhaps greatest of all? "The Ice Palace."

I envision Krystallac, at its height as resembling something like the Emerald City in Oz, but with different districts "grown" of different types of gemstone/crystal. The caverns in which those huge crystals grow in Mexico was originally filled with water, which the crystals need to grow. Since fey breathe water, do you think it would be too far off to have parts of Krystallac submerged (if not in the 'present' of the Megadungeon continuity, then at times in the city's past)? I just remembered, you've got the waterfall from the Kosmoterios level's Starlake falling straight through the center of the Krystallac level!

The "ruins," would, I think, only contain the first few floors of some of the biggest of the sky-touching crystal towers, the streets littered with cracked husks of the upper stories, or swathes of jagged remains whee towers shattered outright when they fell. Once sealed when the Mogreth buried the city to build their own (hmm, windows of which might be scavenged from the ruined Krystallac towers?), what if some portions of the city started to grow again? The haphazard angles of this "new" growth would serve to illustrate the city's fall and partial rebirth as something very much in touch with Chaos.

These are just some initial thoughts, as I'm not sure if you've developed anything this deep yet or not...

Always interested in your feedback. Does any of this work for you? Not work? Please let me know!

With the whole focus on crystals in this region, have you considered adding Krysts or other earth elementals as part of the population (visitors, or enslaved elementals)? Sorry if this has already been discussed.

Havard wrote:With the whole focus on crystals in this region, have you considered adding Krysts or other earth elementals as part of the population (visitors, or enslaved elementals)? Sorry if this has already been discussed.

-Havard

That's an angle I hadn't really thought of, Havard.... I'm not well versed in extra planar goodies (never got up to Companion levels, as a player or DM!). I'll have to read up. It could very well be that they aided in construction of the city (or hurried along its fall!), and some are still trapped therein.

Another motif I'd like to mess around with is the use of light and reflections. As the Dark Fairy level was full of "time slips," I think this level could do something similar, when viewing reflections in the crystalline walls. Differing light sources would reveal glimpses of the city during the three different Troll Queens' reigns.*
Candle light, torch light, light-based magic, lantern light.... etc.

All interesting, I believe these ideas will be used
Note however that Kristallac and the capital of Grondheim should be two different locations. Kristallac should be an almost secret location at the time of Grondheim, or at least a sacred place whose exact location should not be widely known.
I don't know where Chimpman planned to place the capital of Grondheim, but I had the impression it should be somewhere on the southern edge of the lake in Northern Grondheim, where eventually the Broken Lands will come to me.
I thought Southern Grondheim was instead an are conquered at a later time, but I could be wrong..

Sturm wrote:All interesting, I believe these ideas will be used
Note however that Kristallac and the capital of Grondheim should be two different locations. Kristallac should be an almost secret location at the time of Grondheim, or at least a sacred place whose exact location should not be widely known.
I don't know where Chimpman planned to place the capital of Grondheim, but I had the impression it should be somewhere on the southern edge of the lake in Northern Grondheim, where eventually the Broken Lands will come to me.

Dead on the money there Sturm. Those are my initial thoughts, although it is becoming apparent to me (through our brainstorming sessions) that Krystallac is going to be a very important location for the Troll Queen. She probably won't make it her capital... I'm not even sure her capital will be on the Prime Material Plane... but it is turning out to be a linchpin location in some of her high level plots and schemes.

Sturm wrote:I thought Southern Grondheim was instead an are conquered at a later time, but I could be wrong..

I'm still not sure how this is going to work out, but my initial feeling is that Northern Grondheim was essentially the land of the giants, and this is where the Troll Queen comes in and first consolidates her power base. Southern Grondheim (while it still has giant populations) I see as a much more wild place... probably somewhere that fey are more commonplace. That may have been less of a conquest for the Troll Queen, and more of a diplomatic alliance/assimilation.

I've been working on some ideas for Yuri Molotov and stumbled across an idea that might be useful in 2300 BC. Rugalov Keep (formerly the Aerodrome of the Order of the White Drake) was supposedly built on top of a portal to the Plain of Air - something the order used to good effect with their flying mounts.

I've mapped the location (I haven't updated the map online yet) in 2300 BC and it falls in Southern Grondheim, somewhere south of Tursh and Zargash near the border of the Frontierlands.

I'm not sure what this site might be in 2300 BC, but I'm sure we can find some use for it.

I'm coming back to Grondheim, and just trying to work through some details in my mind. I've been thinking about how the government system would be structured. I see it working like a feudal state, with the Troll Queen and her fey court as the high nobility. Lower nobility would be the giants, mostly held in check because their loved ones and children would be wards (read hostages) of the Troll Queen's court.

So you could have regions of the land ruled over directly by giants, however they would be beholden to the court (and they would be loath to disobey the Troll Queen because she's holding hostages). You could also have regions of Grondheim directly under the control of some fey noble. For some reason I'm thinking of the time of Robin Hood when England was ruled by the Normans and the Saxons were treated as second class citizens.

I've got some more ideas I'll share shortly. I'd love if anyone else has ideas they want to share.

I'd put some humans too in the territory, brutemen, troglodytes, lizardmen, chameleon men, harpies, minotaurs.
All these people appears in the B modules so they could be ancient inhabitants of the area. They should all be third class citizen probably.
As I do not use the idea "KW was North Pole at time of Blackmoor", IMC all these people were the ancient inhabitants of the region, so also some specific human cultures, mostly descendants of Oltecs, Celtic-like followers of Djaea and Ethengarians.
Centaurs too, but they are probably to be included in the fey, even if maybe as lower nobility.

My thoughts on the mess that is Grondheim's government seems more or less inclined towards Chimpman's description. The giant territories of the northern half of the realm are largely (see what I did there?) ruled by giants with their own quasi feudal pecking order, but with various fey lord-governors overseeing them. it's made even more of a mess due to the fey lords' use of their giant vassal kingdoms as pawns in their own trivial and petty games and rivalries. The Giants, then, must not only contend with their own sometime-brutal politics of tribe and clan and fief, but also the machinations and manipulations by their alien fey overlords.

There will be other creatures in the region for sure, however I want to try and maintain focus on the major powers at least for now. Those are going to be be fey, giants, and changelings (humans, elves, dwarves, etc... that the fey have switched out at birth).

Note: Minotaurs officially don't exist until BC 2000 when Minos "kills" Gildesh, and some of the enduks loose their wings. We do have proto-minotaurs (the aurans) in Taymora.

RobJN wrote:My thoughts on the mess that is Grondheim's government seems more or less inclined towards Chimpman's description. The giant territories of the northern half of the realm are largely (see what I did there?) ruled by giants with their own quasi feudal pecking order, but with various fey lord-governors overseeing them. it's made even more of a mess due to the fey lords' use of their giant vassal kingdoms as pawns in their own trivial and petty games and rivalries. The Giants, then, must not only contend with their own sometime-brutal politics of tribe and clan and fief, but also the machinations and manipulations by their alien fey overlords.

Ahhh... I like the concept of regional governors. That should give us a chance to detail out several different fey lords. I think I'd like to try and figure out who some of these fey lords are and what their motivations are. Maybe the first step should be to go back to the map and draw out some territory boundaries (I'm thinking mostly based on terrain), and then we can create appropriate "governors" for each section.

Second idea - I was looking over my notes, and all of the various posts over the years for this one, and trying to come up with some of the major cultures in the area of Grondheim. It seems like there are probably 2 or 3 different "giant cultures" that should be in the area before the Troll Queen takes over.

In the south, I like the idea of GPs M-Etruscan giants. These would be stone and hill giants mostly. I like the idea of these two races being a part of the same southern culture.

In the north we have the M-Norse culture of frost and fire giants (perhaps their culture is similar to the Antalians of the time). I'm wondering if these two should be part of the same culture, or if we should create distinct cultures for each of them

Before the Troll Queen came, all of these cultures would have been ruled over by the storm giants, but I'm thinking that the decline of the giant races in general (circa BC 2500) would have caused friction between the storm giants and their subjects. If we want to tie the Troll Queen in with the Winter Court as well, then perhaps it was the frost giants who stepped in and organized a little coup. Unfortunately the got more than they bargained for.

More thoughts on the government (not sure I'm happy with the various titles, but I think the general structure is close):

Troll Queen: The supreme ruler of Grondheim.

Inner Circle: Composed of the Troll Queen’s “sisters” who may often impersonate one another (and the queen). They are her most trusted advisors and councilors. Many of these may go on to one day become the hags of Dymrak (or other famous hag circles).

Regional Governors: These are mostly fey who have been placed in charge of maintaining some region of the mortal world in Grondheim. Some could relish the posting, being either benevolent or malevolent to their subjects, while others may chafe at the idea of even dealing with mortal concerns.

Barons: These are mainly giants (jarls, emirs, and hetmen) that control local tribes, villages, and towns. They are responsible for governing the daily routines of the people of Grondheim, and report directly to one of the Regional Governors. Many are themselves young and inexperienced (and easily manipulated), and most of them have family members being held as hostages by the Troll Queen and her inner circle.

Chimpman wrote:More thoughts on the government (not sure I'm happy with the various titles, but I think the general structure is close):

Troll Queen: The supreme ruler of Grondheim.

Inner Circle: Composed of the Troll Queen’s “sisters” who may often impersonate one another (and the queen). They are her most trusted advisors and councilors. Many of these may go on to one day become the hags of Dymrak (or other famous hag circles).

If you've read my notes from some of my 5e Project: Dragonwatch material, then you'll have an inkling about how fae "evolve" into hags

Chimpman wrote:Regional Governors: These are mostly fey who have been placed in charge of maintaining some region of the mortal world in Grondheim. Some could relish the posting, being either benevolent or malevolent to their subjects, while others may chafe at the idea of even dealing with mortal concerns.

Even before I read the second sentence, I was thinking "this post could either be a blessing or a curse to its holder." If the Troll Queen likes you, you might get a region to govern. Similarly, if the Troll Queen dislikes you, you may get a region to govern

Chimpman wrote:Barons: These are mainly giants (jarls, emirs, and hetmen) that control local tribes, villages, and towns. They are responsible for governing the daily routines of the people of Grondheim, and report directly to one of the Regional Governors. Many are themselves young and inexperienced (and easily manipulated), and most of them have family members being held as hostages by the Troll Queen and her inner circle.

I wonder if the Troll Queen would have more subtle means of manipulating her barons than the rather clunky "hostage/ward" setup. It just doesn't strike me as "sneaky, manipulative or sinister" enough.

Ohhh... I'm not sure I've seen the Dragonwatch material. I'm going to have to go check that out.

RobJN wrote:

Chimpman wrote:Regional Governors: These are mostly fey who have been placed in charge of maintaining some region of the mortal world in Grondheim. Some could relish the posting, being either benevolent or malevolent to their subjects, while others may chafe at the idea of even dealing with mortal concerns.

Even before I read the second sentence, I was thinking "this post could either be a blessing or a curse to its holder." If the Troll Queen likes you, you might get a region to govern. Similarly, if the Troll Queen dislikes you, you may get a region to govern

So true!

RobJN wrote:

Chimpman wrote:Barons: These are mainly giants (jarls, emirs, and hetmen) that control local tribes, villages, and towns. They are responsible for governing the daily routines of the people of Grondheim, and report directly to one of the Regional Governors. Many are themselves young and inexperienced (and easily manipulated), and most of them have family members being held as hostages by the Troll Queen and her inner circle.

I wonder if the Troll Queen would have more subtle means of manipulating her barons than the rather clunky "hostage/ward" setup. It just doesn't strike me as "sneaky, manipulative or sinister" enough.

I'm all for thinking up more twisted ways that the Queen can manipulate her vassals

One possibility (and my personal favorite ) is that some of the "barons" (or their spouses, or their children) may already be changelings - fey swapped out for mortals at birth. So when they grow up, they are actually working for the Queen, and don't have any allegiances to their mortal "parents". That's about as insidious as you can get - to turn someone's own family against them ( of course, technically they wouldn't really be family... but most mortals wouldn't realize this... at least not until it was too late).

Power and intrigue are always popular options as well - I'm sure the fey would dredge up all of the old grievances whenever they got the chance. Frost giant vs fire giant, frost and fire vs hill and stone. Hill giants dumped on by everyone. That kind of thing. Of course while infighting can be useful at times, it can also be detrimental - especially when Grondheim is faced with a real outside threat. This kind of thing would probably apply to the fey (regional governors) as well as the barons. Possibly more so with the fey.

"Marriage" (or whatever twisted version thereof that the Troll Queen and her court might practice) could be a good way to manipulate the mortals. Think of a frost giant jarl who has lost his wife, only to have her miraculously re-appear one day to offer him support. He may actually believe that she has returned from the dead... or he may know it isn't really her, but not care... [Same could be true for any lost loved one - changelings gotta keep busy ] I suppose certain deaths could even be arranged to take advantage of this practice (probably the changeling fey is the very one who removed the loved one in the first place).

Chimpman wrote:Ohhh... I'm not sure I've seen the Dragonwatch material. I'm going to have to go check that out.

Huh. Thought I posted the bit about the origin of the Greenshae. I'll have to dig those notes up when I get a free moment.

Chimpman wrote:One possibility (and my personal favorite ) is that some of the "barons" (or their spouses, or their children) may already be changelings - fey swapped out for mortals at birth. So when they grow up, they are actually working for the Queen, and don't have any allegiances to their mortal "parents". That's about as insidious as you can get - to turn someone's own family against them ( of course, technically they wouldn't really be family... but most mortals wouldn't realize this... at least not until it was too late).

"Changeling" was my first thought, as well.

Chimpman wrote:Power and intrigue are always popular options as well - I'm sure the fey would dredge up all of the old grievances whenever they got the chance. Frost giant vs fire giant, frost and fire vs hill and stone. Hill giants dumped on by everyone. That kind of thing. Of course while infighting can be useful at times, it can also be detrimental - especially when Grondheim is faced with a real outside threat. This kind of thing would probably apply to the fey (regional governors) as well as the barons. Possibly more so with the fey.

"Marriage" (or whatever twisted version thereof that the Troll Queen and her court might practice) could be a good way to manipulate the mortals. Think of a frost giant jarl who has lost his wife, only to have her miraculously re-appear one day to offer him support. He may actually believe that she has returned from the dead... or he may know it isn't really her, but not care... [Same could be true for any lost loved one - changelings gotta keep busy ] I suppose certain deaths could even be arranged to take advantage of this practice (probably the changeling fey is the very one who removed the loved one in the first place).

I'm sure we could think of some more scenarios. Got any ideas?

I've always pictured the fey as really big on debt and obligation. If you ask for their help, they will readily give it... for the right price. Of course, once they lend their aid, the ask-er is then in their debt. (as the Handmaidens are about to find out, back in 1000 BC; see also: Zirchev, the Darine, and Zirchev's Oath) Best hope they spell out your terms right there, rather than leaving it up in the air with a promise of favors to be called in at a later date.....

Not sure if you've ever seen the Anime, Death Note, but I'm starting to think of "fey deals" in the same way as characters made deals with the spirits in that story. Without giving too much away (or taking too much time to explain) the basis of the story was that a mortal could write someone's name is a book and specify the time and nature of their death. Using the books (and related powers) cost a price however. For example, if you wanted eyes that could see the true names of people (which you needed in order to use the death notes), then you had to trade in half of your lifespan.

Anyway I was actually thinking about this a few days ago and wondering what kind of currency the fey would actually want. Mortal life seems like one possibility. Imagine trading years of time for some favor or another. Then you walk down a misty passage only to emerge from the other side years older. Or perhaps it might work the other way as well, where a mortal makes a deal and then wakes up to find that 10 years have passed around them, but they haven't aged a day.

What else might the fey "want" from a mortal? I like he idea of favors for favors... but I think the fey ask would be more ethereal than say something your local thieves guild would want.

About payment to fey in classical stories they tipically want children and young ones that because:
- fairy stories are often cautionary tales to children about going alone in the woods, or going too near wells and ponds,
- fairy stories may also have been consoling stories about young ones gone too soon,
- fairies may have been modeled on relic populations who lived at the fringe of the main societies and therefore adopted lost children (or were accused of stealing them)
- fairies are a dying race or a race who has trouble reproducing normally, so they have to steal children.

Yet if they have changelings in abundance and still have a need of mortal children, there must be an explanation for that, maybe they are few and know about the problem of genetic diversity, so they want to diversify their genetic pool?
Or mortals can give them knowledge of passions that the immortal fey cannot feel in the same way..

About payment to fey in classical stories they tipically want children and young ones that because:
- fairy stories are often cautionary tales to children about going alone in the woods, or going too near wells and ponds,
- fairy stories may also have been consoling stories about young ones gone too soon,
- fairies may have been modeled on relic populations who lived at the fringe of the main societies and therefore adopted lost children (or were accused of stealing them)
- fairies are a dying race or a race who has trouble reproducing normally, so they have to steal children.

Yet if they have changelings in abundance and still have a need of mortal children, there must be an explanation for that, maybe they are few and know about the problem of genetic diversity, so they want to diversify their genetic pool?
Or mortals can give them knowledge of passions that the immortal fey cannot feel in the same way..

Well, I've always known I wanted to use changelings in Grondheim, but apart from "they are really good spies" I haven't given much thought as to why the practice would have been started in the first place, so thanks for kick starting that

One idea I have had (and kicked around with Rob a bit) is that the Troll Queen is interested in particular mortal bloodlines (specifically the royal Blackmoorian bloodline of Uther Andahar). So when she steals mortal babies (at least the humans), it may be because they are somehow related to the Andahars. [In Thorn's Mystara, the Troll Queen/aka Morgana, actually has offspring with Uther resulting in twin daughters. ] Another idea we toyed with was that perhaps she was searching for this bloodline so that she could bring Uther "back to life" in some way.