As I said earlier in this thread, I believe that the coming 'change' will be politically neutral: it will be merely a case of the oppressed taking back control.

A key flashpoint of this I think will be the Islamic World in general and Iran in particular. Consider this:

Quote:

While President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was outlining his targeted subsidies plan to the people on television on Saturday, riot police were deploying in Tehran's streets to deal with any protests the lifting of subsidies might trigger.

The impact of the cuts on people's lives is still unclear, but anxiety is widespread.

According to official statements the price of flour could be 40 times higher, petrol would cost between four and seven times more, gas five times more, and electricity and water about three times more.

This could make life very expensive in big cities like the the capital, where many residents already work two jobs to cover their living costs.

Imo, the conditions in Iran are already at fever point and this is a mistake by Ahmedinejad which could well put the flame to the tinder box.

Quote:

Under the subsidy system, Iranians have enjoyed some of the lowest petrol prices in the world - paying as little as $0.40 (25p) per gallon ($0.10 per litre).

As a result of the cuts the price of petrol will rise at least four-fold
But the country, which has some of the world's biggest oil reserves, has been forced to import refined fuel to meet domestic demand.

Over the past two decades, successive governments promised a major overhaul of costly public spending, but none carried it out.

This has kept the lid on things for 20 years and is a fatal error to remove it imo.

Quote:

"This plan, if it is not implemented prudently, will certainly create a crisis in the country," said one reformist MP who asked not to be named.

"Compared to the post-election events, this time the core of the crisis will be shifted from the middle class to the working class of the country, from which the political system receives a huge amount of its support."

It won't be implemented properly.

I think we will see Ahmedinejad removed fairly quickly if this gets going and possibly - depending on how things go on the streets - a movement arising against the regime.

If this happens all bets are off. Hopefully the US will keep its snout out and Iran can be part of the coming push to freedom.

The campaign would include swiping wallets and phones from tables in restaurants, setting fire to cars, attacking hotels, creating rubbish piles, throwing things at tourist buses.

The author of the statement in the paper argues that tourism is fuelling gentrification, which is a growing complaint among the city's left-wing radicals, who argue that rising affluence can push poorer people out of districts in which they have lived for years.

Berlins artistic, creative reputation has been drawing growing numbers of tourists in recent years, especially since the 2006 football World Cup, fuelling a boom in development, with hotels, bars and restaurants springing up in central areas of the capital.

Dozens of cars have been set alight in the past year by suspected left-wing extremists.

The university fees went up by about 9000 pounds from what I saw on the news. I didn't see it go up three times.

A new revolution that kills the excessive globalization and capitalism would be nice. We need to be more self dependent and encourage fresh perspectives on life. As it stands, the current 'western' way of living is not sustainable for the planet, but it still gets propagated by the media. We also need to hold the governments responsible for the people. They are currently answerable to the corporate lobbyists and nothing more. There are so many things wrong with the status co and the efforts taken by those in power to retain the same modus operandi that a revolution will be nice. In any case, it is a nice dream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by segovius

Three paragraphs might be pushing it! But as Talksense says...they went to 9000 and were about 3000 depending on the Uni.

Not sure about the GDP but it will certainly mean only kids of the rich will go in future - this must have a knock-on effect as it will remove a large percentage of the future potential work pool.

Here's the kicker: If you think things are bad, disorganised, etc. in the Western world, wait 'till you check out the developing world.

What we still have in the developing world though is potential for growth and new ways of thinking, etc. whereas in the developed world things are kind of "maxxed out" in several ways.

This months massive bestseller in France is not - as you might imagine - the usual brain-dead fodder for lobotomized gibbons but rather a 30 page call to revolution by a 93 year-old pensioner called Get Angry!

Quote:

Hessel's success has stunned France. After two months on the bestseller lists, the book has spent five weeks at number one, beating Michel Houellebecq's award-winning latest novel La Carte et le Territoire and a host of Christmas fiction. It has sold 600,000 copies and publishers predict it will reach a million. Translations are underway for Italy and other European markets.

Hessel wants us to get angry.

He wants us to reclaim our rights and realize we are perhaps (though he does not say this) one or two 'terror attacks' away from a Police State.

He wants us to fight the tyranny we have become inured to.

And he should know of what he speaks - a veteran of the French Resistance who fought for freedom then was arrested and shipped to Buchenwald where he was tortured and narrowly escaped hanging.

Now he is pointing the way forward for our own struggle today.

Quote:

Hessels experiences during World War II form the ideological basis of Indignez-vous, which asserts that the spirit of French resistance is needed now as much as it was 70 years ago. We call on the younger generations to carry on the legacy of the Resistance and its ideals, Hessel writes, citing the gap between the poorest and the richest as one of many reasons to be indignant today.

He calls for peaceful opposition but admits in the Middle East and with Israel's attitude this may not be possible peacefully. But he is Jewish so he can point certain things out.

Quote:

Hessel, who in 2006 was named Grand Officer of the Legion of Honour, has also been a vocal supporter of a boycott of Israeli products in protest against Israels occupation of Palestinian territories. In his interview with FRANCE 24, Hessel said that criticisms of Israel were muted, because everyone is afraid of being called an anti-Semite. This reticence must be conquered. Israeli treatment of Palestinians is indeed a major theme of his essay, in which he notes: Jews themselves perpetrating war crimes is intolerable. Alas, the past offers few examples of people learning lessons from their own history.

Now here we have the classic revolution-path: Youth and young adults, educated and qualified but unemployed, stand up against a dictatory system and other parts of society join because of jumped food- and fuel-prices... and also because of the bloody reaction of the police-force and also because of the burning suicide-sacrifice of the unemployed academic that ignited it all, obviously resonating with the feelings of many and underlining the seriousness.

Surprisingly the president of Tunis seems to give in to the protesters, promising to free all imprisoned protesters, calls the forces to stop shooting at them, and promises to do something because of the food-prices and also to create 300,000 jobs for the unemployed (how will he do that?) and also promises to stand-down as president in 2014 and also to form a national unity-government in which parts of the opposition can take part, and promises free press... even sacking the interior minister and saying that he was fooled by advisers around him..

Sounds all too good to be true, but it's surprising to see to what length the president goes to recognize the wishes of the protesters, even if it's just in words right now, so obviously he felt the situation was highly explosive:

Tunisian President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali has dismissed the country's government and ordered elections for a new parliament within six months.The move comes after weeks of protests over corruption, unemployment and high food prices.

They culminated earlier in thousands of people protesting outside the interior ministry in the capital Tunis, urging the president to quit.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

I'm really surprised no-one else seems interested in this. It is a major development.

I can really see this spreading to other Arab countries - Syria in particular and Algeria must be concerned. I really hope so actually though Asad Jr is probably doing a good as job as possible in Syria.

What I want personally is the Mullahs out in Iran and and a secular State (along Turkish lines) with Shi'i accommodation installed that is not going to kow-tow to the West but which is still Western leaning.

I'd move there like a shot.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

I'm really surprised no-one else seems interested in this. It is a major development.

I can really see this spreading to other Arab countries - Syria in particular and Algeria must be concerned. I really hope so actually though Asad Jr is probably doing a good as job as possible in Syria.

What I want personally is the Mullahs out in Iran and and a secular State (along Turkish lines) with Shi'i accommodation installed that is not going to kow-tow to the West but which is still Western leaning.

Its plainly obvious that most developed civilizations are teetering on the edge of collapse. There is not the resources to ever stand a hope in hells chance of paying off the debts, or even balancing them.
The bailouts are just delaying the inevitable.
Can we just print money as a last resort on the scale of the Wiemar Republic? to essentially wipe out all debts and assets - an economic reboot?

How about we stop catering to the top 1%? Get them to realize that if they want a society to actually live in, they need to stop being such greedy motherfuckers. And then we need to get half of America to stop voting against their own interests because they hate gays and fear atheists.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

How about we stop catering to the top 1%? Get them to realize that if they want a society to actually live in, they need to stop being such greedy motherfuckers. And then we need to get half of America to stop voting against their own interests because they hate gays and fear atheists.

Dont you think though that it goes further than that? - What you state is true, and I agree, but the scale of the problem is so great, there is no way out for anyone regardless of what we do.

Perhaps, its in all our interests, just to keep putting a plaster over the wound for as long as we can, because eventually we are all utterly utterly fucked anyway.

I look forward to the inevitable crash, and I dont think there is a single thing that anyone can do to hedge against it.

I really don't think it has to be that way. But it will require a fundamental shift in how humans treat each other. There are enough resources out there to feed, clothe, and shelter everyone. Greed is what needs to go the way of the dodo. And you're right, that's a rather tall order. Maybe I'm romantically optimistic about our species. Maybe I shouldn't be.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

I really don't think it has to be that way. But it will require a fundamental shift in how humans treat each other. There are enough resources out there to feed, clothe, and shelter everyone. Greed is what needs to go the way of the dodo. And you're right, that's a rather tall order. Maybe I'm romantically optimistic about our species. Maybe I shouldn't be.

The trouble is, and we see it demonstrated here every day, there are many, many people who cant think in any other terms, than their personal profit...themselves. They will say, do, deceive, of anything for their upside. Humanity is going to be forced to change - even if through utter collapse of the norm.

At the moment, the sociopaths do have the power - through technology. The question is whether there is a critical mass of rabble population to overcome the tech?

My conscience - There is a revolution coming, whether we like it or not.

My intentions are honest and pure - but I think we need to be aware of the fact, that many innocent people are going to die, and the rest of us have our lives turned 180 degrees because of it. Is this right or wrong - for all our sins?

I don't know that Americans in general have to courage to do a revolution anymore. They are too comfortable in their ways and revolution is very messy. Revolution for them is voting differently to see if things get better. If not they complain, and vote again. And nothing much changes. I have been feeling very run down lately due to current event. And I don't believe that I will see anything new happen that will be worth getting excited over. And reading these forums and their spurious arguments that go around and around with no solutions and nothing changing just keeps me shaking my head.

I have changed quite a bit in the past 10 years. If you knew me back then and compared me to now you would see it. Coming back and posting here I saw that others have changed as well. But the general posting atmosphere has not changed for the better. It is very sour here. No matter how one tries to make it better it always seems to go the same route, devolving into a you're a racist, you're and idiot spitting match. I can see why some have left and I am wondering why I keep coming back. hope may spring eternal, but my patience is running thin. I wonder if Americans patience will do the same and something will actually change. Even if it is uncomfortable.

Sorry for the winding path. It is late and I just finished reading to kill a mockingbird for the first time. Goodnight all. May tomorrow be better.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

I really don't think it has to be that way. But it will require a fundamental shift in how humans treat each other. There are enough resources out there to feed, clothe, and shelter everyone. Greed is what needs to go the way of the dodo. And you're right, that's a rather tall order. Maybe I'm romantically optimistic about our species. Maybe I shouldn't be.

Yes, you're right. Imo, the fundamental change though will have to be 'spiritual' or it won't take root.

I don't mean religious or even anything remotely connected - that won't work. Religions have failed in this regard and in the 60s a wider spirituality was attempted and also failed.

I mean 'spiritual' in the sense of transcendent and unifying - much like art is.

If something like that can occur then we're in with a shout.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

You couldn't be more right. People need to rewatch the Cosmos mini-series by Carl Sagan.

Yeah, was a classic. I get a bit angry and feel betrayed remembering how things used to be in this way: growing up it was just a commonplace that we would be expanding our horizons and moving into space.

Instead we had to settle for the sort of boring mundane nothingness we thought our parents had shook off after the war. Sad.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Imagine if we had put a fraction of the cost of going to war into space exploration. What's even worse is there isn't a good economic reason not to go to space. Think about our greatest leaps in technology--fruits of the NASA tree. It's hard to find a piece of technology that wasn't influenced by the space race.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Actually a number of the things that have been attributed to the space program for its genesis was actually developed before, in parallel with or outside of. I wish I could find a link to a few of things I've read about this. I used to believe all that too...but learned otherwise. It's one of those popular and comfortable myths that continues to get perpetuated like The New Deal saved the economy (or WW2 saved the economy)...stuff like that. Heck even the whole "internet was invented by the government" thing is only sorta true. Most of the concepts and ideas and even some of the early protocols were developed privately before one or two of the key visionaries went to work for ARPA/DARPA where they expanded on these already emerging ideas.

Actually a number of the things that have been attributed to the space program for its genesis was actually developed before, in parallel with or outside of. I wish I could find a link to a few of things I've read about this. I used to believe all that too...but learned otherwise. It's one of those popular and comfortable myths that continues to get perpetuated like The New Deal saved the economy (or WW2 saved the economy)...stuff like that. Heck even the whole "internet was invented by the government" thing is only sorta true. Most of the concepts and ideas and even some of the early protocols were developed privately before one or two of the key visionaries went to work for ARPA/DARPA where they expanded on these already emerging ideas.

So no examples then.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Three that immediately come to mind as having been claimed to be developed by or for the space program and likely to have not come about with this "investment." But were, in fact, not developed for or with NASA.

What's more there is no way to know that anything that might be attributable to the space program would not have been created without the space program. This is simply an assumption.

doesn't look like there is anything spiritual going on in Tunisia today, unless you count guns and death a spiritual experience. Seems like a revolution can only happen with death and pain, as they always have.

doesn't look like there is anything spiritual going on in Tunisia today, unless you count guns and death a spiritual experience. Seems like a revolution can only happen with death and pain, as they always have.

how much do you want this revolution? Will it be woth it?

It very well may be, to the next generation. This generation will likely pay a high price for the hope of something better. Assuming they are changing to something that is worthwhile.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

doesn't look like there is anything spiritual going on in Tunisia today, unless you count guns and death a spiritual experience. Seems like a revolution can only happen with death and pain, as they always have.

Revolution always comes with violence, in the case of Tunisia it is the old president's guard that is formenting the violence. As has been reported lately, it seems like the fleeing president Ali has prepared his followers with money and weapons and instructed them to provoke a civil war before he escaped and is even directing the violence right now from the outside, in order to prepare his return as the saviour of the nation. Currently the tunisian army tries to capture or kill that president's guard, in a few days/weeks they will probably be defeated.

The much bigger question is: Will Tunisia's new government use the opportunity to install a real democracy with press freedom, freedom to assemble, to candidate... or will they go the tried and known route and fall back to the dictatorship?

As to the developed/free world, I don't see any revolutions coming (at least not violent ones through the street), there is no need, freedom is already there to elect different parties or to even found new ones, revolution can happen at the ballot-box, if that doesn't happen, it just means too many people are too comfortable with the status quo.

Besides those wishing for revolution don't have an alternative society/economy-model that could replace the "Adam Smith"-model (with a bit Keynesiamism thrown in) of generating wealth.

Communism hasn't worked, the islamistic sharia-non-interest-model is feared rather than desired, so what should the new paradigma look like?

What should motivate one to leave the bed early and to do hard/dirty work, to study or ... besides money or the expectation of future money?

I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?