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my answer remains the same, I wont handle to a mark in training, and I wont say I DONT WHEN I HUNT, but I really try not to...in training since I have the luxury of time (figuratively,not literally) I will call the dog in and resend if the dog went that far off line, or in my case go out and drag his/her butt back to the AOF and dig that bird out of the dirt

to each their own

All my Exes live in Texas

Originally Posted by lanse brown

A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

Well, yes I suppose.
There are other ways to help dog on a mark besides handling.
Gunner help for starters. There are a number of "degrees" of gunner help.
You may simply have him move umbrella to side so dog spots him, or have him stand, or stand and move arms, or stand move arms and hey hey.
.
You also have recall and rethrow at your disposal if dog shows lack of effort.
.
Lots and lots of stuff.

When young dogs are first exposed to retired guns, it's an accepted practice to have a gunner step out to help a lost dog. So gunner help is a generally accepted practice for young dogs being exposed to retired guns - as opposed to handling. Young dogs being exposed or taught retired guns should be done so in the absence of other factors as the teaching process begins. As it is learned, factors can be added. But even so, factors in & of themselves should be taught & mastered in isolation to the extent possible. For advanced dogs, handling is acceptable when a dog begins to give-in to a factor (wind, terrain, water avoidance, going to shore early etc.) to which the dog has previously learned & mastered without a retired gun. Otherwise how will the dog understand the reason for being handled? It should be understood that handling on a mark is a form of correction under most circumstances & as such should not be used unless the failure is to perform in a manner previously taught.

Oh and don't pay attention to Bon. Anyone who doesn't handle on marks in training won't get far at all. I'm not talking about handling in the fall area either as this would be bird boy help territory. Read your dogs intent in route and handle if needed but use caution as problems can be created. Recalls fit in too but can also cause trouble.
It's called Balanced training for a reason.

I'm specifically asking about handling on marks when the guns are retired. The standard is different than handling on marks in general, no?

When the white coats are out, for example, if dog has marked the fall it has no excuse for hooking the gun or not taking a small slice of water. But if gunner is retired, hooking the gun or missing the little piece of water is less of a crime, no?

Renee, rather than worry about whether the gun is retired or not, ask yourself as you set up a test what you want to get out of it from a training standpoint. We're talking about young transition dogs here, so retired guns are relatively new. For young dogs at this stage in their training I would tend to separate issues and keep it simple. If I'm introducing retired guns to the dog, I would try to avoid factors, just work on getting the dog comfortable going for a memory bird with no visible gunner as a crutch. Like others have posted, you may have the gunner uncover a little or a lot, for just a glimpse or for a longer period. You probably wouldn't handle in this case. If the dog takes a really bad line, not avoiding factors because we purposely kept factors out of the test, just a bad line, recall, uncover the gun and send again.

Work on factors separately with the guns up. Only later when the dog is comfortable with retired guns, being 80% successful, then add in factors, one at a time. Then you handle on the factors, not the mark.

When young dogs are first exposed to retired guns, it's an accepted practice to have a gunner step out to help a lost dog. So gunner help is a generally accepted practice for young dogs being exposed to retired guns - as opposed to handling. Young dogs being exposed or taught retired guns should be done so in the absence of other factors as the teaching process begins. As it is learned, factors can be added. But even so, factors in & of themselves should be taught & mastered in isolation to the extent possible. For advanced dogs, handling is acceptable when a dog begins to give-in to a factor (wind, terrain, water avoidance, going to shore early etc.) to which the dog has previously learned & mastered without a retired gun. Otherwise how will the dog understand the reason for being handled? It should be understood that handling on a mark is a form of correction under most circumstances & as such should not be used unless the failure is to perform in a manner previously taught.

I like this response...If the dog is avoiding cover ( factor) ,forget the mark and deal with the issue at hand...Work on retired gun with out factor to see if dog can remember mark until dog has mastered factor....Steve S "marks are for the dog,blinds are for the handler"

"Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters