Mourinho tries to counter Messi’s false nine role by pushing Carvalho up the pitch

August 18, 2011

How Real tried to deal with Messi - Carvalho came out of the back, and his three fellow defenders had to narrow

One of the notable features from the second leg of the Spanish Supercopa was the positioning of Ricardo Carvalho, and his response to Lionel Messi’s movement into deep, slightly right-sided positions.

Messi tore Real apart in the 5-0 win last season, despite it being a rare occasion where he didn’t end up on the scoresheet. Real tried to play high up the pitch, but Messi played so deep that Jose Mourinho didn’t know how to deal with him – the two centre-backs stayed in position, but holding a high line. Therefore, Messi could receive the ball in space, turn, then send a ball through to one of the wide forwards coming inside. His two assists for David Villa’s goals were perfect, displaying exactly why Pep Guardiola wants to play Messi in that role.

As well as being a great goalscorer and a superb dribbler, Messi is fantastic at slipping the ball through the defence, particularly between full-back and centre-back, and stopping those balls becomes essential when he plays as a false nine.

Why has this become an issue now, when Real played Barcelona four times after the 5-0 last season? First, because in the four subsequent 2010/11 meetings, Real played very deep, leaving no space in behind and letting Barcelona come onto them. This made Messi’s role less dangerous (although not Messi himself less dangerous: he’s good enough to be a threat whatever the situation in the game) for various reasons.

First, because Real could focus on keeping it tight between the lines and deny him space that way. Second, because there was less space between Real’s defence and their goalline, for those balls in behind. Third, because playing deep seems to lend itself naturally to playing against a false nine – there’s simply less space for him to open up by dropping deep.

Mourinho’s decision to press from the front in this match meant Real had to stay compact and push up, to deny Barcelona space in midfield – and then the issue of tracking Messi arose. Carvalho spent much of the first half ahead of his other three defenders, closing Messi down before sprinting back into the defensive line.

The first goal showed that it didn’t quite work. Carvalho came out of defence and got beaten by Messi, who then played the ball through the gap between Pepe and Sergio Ramos (which had become artificially large, since Pepe had to cover two centre-back positions by himself) to Andres Iniesta.

Pepe, who became an aggressive midfield destroyer in the Clasicos last year, might have been the better man to play this role. Carvalho was beaten easily, and it may be that what he is good at – penalty box defending – isn’t useful in this situation. If this becomes the norm against a false nine (an advanced centre-back, covered by a sweeper ready to pick up runners from midfield and the wings), both players will need to be quick. The former needs to be able to turn quickly and get back in the defensive line, whilst the latter can’t be slow if he’s the last line of cover and is playing high up the pitch.

It is potentially another way the centre-back will evolve. On a related note, it was interesting that when Messi was playing as a false nine and tearing apart Arsenal in the Champions League in 2009/10 (at a time when Messi was relatively new to that role – Barca had played the majority of the campaign with him on the right and Zlatan Ibrahimovic upfront), when Arsene Wenger had to take off one of his centre-backs, Mikael Silvestre, he brought on another full-back, Emmanuel Eboue, rather than back-up centre-back Sol Campbell. He then had a defence of Eboue, Bacary Sagna, Thomas Vermaelen and Gael Clichy.

Sagna isn’t a centre-back by any stretch of the imagination, but the logic was sound (even if Messi did grab another goal). Arsenal needed to play high up the pitch to get back in the game, and with Vermaelen stereotypically coming up the pitch towards Messi, an ageing Campbell would have been a nightmare as the covering defender. By having a quick full-back alongside Vermaelen, Arsenal were theoretically more able to deal with Messi, even if that meant overlooking a natural centre-back for a gap at centre-back.

That’s an extreme example – Campbell was, with respect, probably past the point where he should have been playing Champions League football. But it points to a situation where slow, rugged centre-backs may struggle – albeit in a very specific setting: (a) when needing to play high up the pitch, and (b) against a team playing a false nine.

Coming back to the specifics, it’s hard to justify Carvalho’s place in the side if Real were about to replay this game. With Sergio Ramos comfortable at centre-back, his pace would have been much more useful. Alvaro Arbeloa could be the replacement right-back.

It’s not until December 11th that the sides reconvene at the Bernabeu, but it will be interesting to see how Mourinho adapts.

So are some fans of Barcelona or any other team, in any case: don’t feed the troll.

Maxwell on August 18, 2011 at 6:44 pm

I think this person might have been joking. At least I hope so.

Carbo on August 18, 2011 at 6:25 pm

I’m guessing this is a wind up, but it’s fairly typical of what one hears out of the Bernabeu and Madrid press, so I’ll bite. It’s hilarious, frankly. I mean, those dastardly referees having the nerve to send Real Madrid players off when they commit second bookable offenses or make gruesome red-card challenges.

Maybe if Mourinho hadn’t sent his team out to kick Barca off the park in four out of the five games last season, or had kept control of them when his spoiled little brats got upset that the match wasn’t going their way, the referee wouldn’t have had to have sent Real players off.

But then, the laws of the game do have that well-known Barcelona bias, don’t they?

RAFAEL on August 21, 2011 at 4:38 pm

Barcelonas First goal in the cup was just that. Carvalho came out all the way pass the middle to put pressure on Messi, leaving a a lot more space between the RM defenders. What happened next. Messi bridles Carvalho and as he starts his run to the midle not forward to bring even more player out of their defensive position you see Iniesta running to that big gap created by the absence of Carvalho.
Thank you Mou!

They might no play in Dedecember because of the FIFA Club World Cup in December.

sibelkacem on August 18, 2011 at 7:40 pm

How is that contradicting each other?

Anonymous on August 18, 2011 at 9:58 pm

because la liga may well be delayed in opening because of the dispute in wages going on. these matchdays(s) will need to be made up and the natural time would be in december in the winter break, which could move clasico to january

L'Ovella Negra on August 19, 2011 at 1:15 pm

No, the league will start from the 2on date. The first one will be moved to another time. The Classico will be played on Dec 11th and it’s the following Barça fixture that is going to be moved because of the CWC.

The problem is that I hear/read somewhere that there is just two free dates this season and Barça already needs one for the CWC. If the 2on date is also cancelled be prepared for a real problem.

RAFAEL on August 21, 2011 at 4:09 pm

yes this will be another excuse for the mighty Mourinho. It’s simple impossible to play a game and 2 days later be in japan ready to play again.

Carvalho tracked Messi during the second leg of Champion’s last season. That’s why he was so close to a red card during this game.

deux11 on August 18, 2011 at 6:06 pm

I expect Pepe to get another red

Awahs on August 18, 2011 at 6:06 pm

My problem with this is the full-backs. You’re essentially switching the team from a back 4 to a back 3, stereotypical rampaging fullbacks like Marcelo may not be the best choice here. Ramos, being comfortable anywhere in defence, makes sense. Would it not be better to play someone comfortable at left centre-back and left-back (like Chivu, Criscito, Garay, David Luiz, etc.)? I don’t know who that is in the current Real squad, but it’s a thought.

That’s what Real did yesterday – in the 1st half Coentrao was playing leftback. At half-time Marcelo took his place and Coentrao became DMF in place of Khedira. This was because of two things I presume: Khedira already got yellow in the 1st half and to impose more attacking threat from the left flank (Marcelo is still much better at attacking than Coentrao (and than in defending )).

matt on August 18, 2011 at 6:52 pm

Pedro was also running Coentrao ragged in the first half. He didn’t get on the scoresheet, but caused a lot of trouble when he received the ball wide and dribbled toward goal. It would have been foolish to allow that to continue for 45 more minutes.

Regarding Ricardo Carvalho, I saw him live in Philadelphia. I don’t know whether to blame preseason lack of fitness or age, but he looked really knackered. The Union’s mediocre forwards (at the time Carlos Ruiz) blew by him with relative ease, which shouldn’t happen to a key defender on an elite team.

True about Pedro in the 1st half, but how exactly changing Coentrao for Marcelo helped preventing it?

matt on August 18, 2011 at 7:57 pm

well, Pedro was quieter in the second half, before making way for Fabregas. I think the fresh legs of Marcelo had something to do with that, since Marcelo and Coentrao are roughly equal as defenders. Marcelo made a great tackle on 79 minutes to deny Pedro, and a good block on 62 minutes to deny Villa. He did get caught out early in the second half and got a yellow card for a bad tackle on Messi. The situation turned when Fabregas came on, since he now had the fresh legs. Barcelona caused a lot of problems down Marcelo’s wing in the final 10 minutes.

Trequartista from SA on August 19, 2011 at 6:22 am

It helped because it meant fresh legs to counter Pedro and an added stamina in midfield.

hobbitonfc on August 19, 2011 at 9:47 am

When a fullback is more aggressive, the winger has to do more to cover. Marcelo is a more aggressive FB so Pedro is having to track him and not just loiter in a wide position or make runs to drag the defence out of position. The problem Real then had and didn’t think quickly enough to solve is that Cesc coming on for a winger then took a spot in the midfield and was allowed to run into wide areas and make havoc. So now Mourinho really has two problems to solve, and unfortunately for him the solution cannot involve an Argentinian shirt.

d00gle on August 19, 2011 at 9:28 pm

didn’t pedro switch wings with villa after the 40th minute?

Diverinho on August 19, 2011 at 1:43 pm

Had the impression that Khedira was doing very well in both supercup matches so far – each time until he got his stupid/unfortunate yellow card. He was shutting down Iniesta superbly. Had he stayed on a clean sheet longer in any of the respective games, Mourinho would not have had to substitute him that early – which probably would have ended in Madrid winning the supercup.
I like Coentrao a lot better than Marcelo as left back, even though he looked a bit shaky on wednesday. More disciplined and cohesive, more able to link up with his team mates, less erratic running in attacking moves.
Have to say that Madrid should have won it, looking at both legs of the matchup. They had more chances and similar possession. Difference was a brilliant Messi who literally created all five of Barca’s goals, and an abysmally nervous and empty-minded Ronaldo.

Jordan on August 19, 2011 at 5:15 pm

Agreed. Barcelona, and world football as whole, are lucky to be witnessing Messi. He will go down as one of the top 10 all time, most likely.
He scored or created every Barca goal. I truly believe that Madrid without CR7 is much more dangerous than Barca without Messi.

Carbo on August 18, 2011 at 6:12 pm

I’m pretty sure that this is the way football is going. I believe that in the same way that the Spanish innovation of four lines instead of three, in a 4-2-3-1 or fluid 4-5-1/4-3-3, slowly became the default for most other top teams in Europe, so the false nine flanked by inside forwards who play as inverted wingers and centre forwards in various phases of the game, will also become the norm.

And, just as the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 made the 3-5-2 obsolete, because it was left with one too many centre-backs, deprived it of width as the wing backs were pushed back by advanced wingers and overlapping full backs, and negated the extra central midfielder by going 3 vs 3, so the false 9-inverted-wingers system will force a rethink the back four. I believe that that rethink could well lead to a transformation that will be the most interesting, revolutionary tactical change since the three at the back became popular between the mid-eighties and mid-nineties — or perhaps even since the zonal four at the back was introduced by the Brazilians in the late fifties and early sixties.

I’ve long suspected — and call me crazy, if you like — that we’ll see some modern update on the W-M or W-W formations. It will either involve the way Barca do it, with two centre backs comfortable spreading wider (in Barca’s case, it’s more to do with covering the attack-minded full backs, but could easily be to cover inside forwards cutting in) and a holding midfielder/libero style player, like Busquets, comfortable both playing the ball at the base of midfield and dropping in to centre back, to fill the gap. Or, it will be a two mobile centrebacks, where one steps out, and the other covers, with more defensive-minded full backs (in the old fashioned, pre-Brazil 94 style) tucking in and marking the inside forwards. In both systems, you’ll have a pre-4-4-4 centre half, and, depending on the system, two or three pre-4-4-2 full backs.

Of course, we don’t know what coaches will finally find to nullify the false-9-inside-out-wingers formation (who predicted 4-2-3-1 to beat a 3-5-2?), but that would be my best guess.

john on August 18, 2011 at 6:35 pm

I agree. The false nine tactic is a way to choose where you want numerical advantage (in the midfield) and where you want your oponent to be orverequiped (in defense).
Recently we have seen 4-men defenses with attacking and overlapping full-backs as the only tactical move possible from those defenses.
As we all now here the best balance you want is to have one spare-man at the back, with the false nine tactic (and others), the 4-men defenses with attacking fullbacks becomes a bit ageing.
So i think in future years we will see “new” flexibility from defences: a central defender (or full back) able to play in the defensive midfielder (/security against counter attacks) role, and defenses able to switch between 4 to 3 (to 5 for some maybe) defenders easily to adapt to the opponent and to help your offensive players the best way possible.

we’ll have the “classic” DM playing in CB/CB going to midfield, but also full-backs playing in midfield/midfielders playing in fullback

by switching from 4-0 defence to 3-1 defence you want security against counter attacks at first but you can also want to add “pivotes” as they say in spain: low placed midfielders with the intelligence and tactical knowledge to allow the offensive midfielders to rely on them to build your offense, xabi alonso’s more than pepe’s if you want.
marcelo can already be placed in this category, even though he’s not that effective in defense, the same with coentrao, dani alves, they don’t have xabi alonso like roles when they are in midfield but they’re already a lot more than overlapping fullbacks like cafu and others.

Carbo on August 18, 2011 at 7:17 pm

Interesting response. If I could add to that, you said: “The false nine tactic is a way to choose where you want numerical advantage (in the midfield) and where you want your oponent to be orverequiped (in defense).” I think this is true, but I also think it’s as much about finding space than anything else. By starting at nine, and dropping off, the false nine simultaneously (1) finds space for himself, (2) forces the centre-backs into a hard choice between closing that space and breaking the crucial zonal system upon which the back four is essentially based, or leaving the player go free, and (3) creates space for others to run into — primarily the inverted wingers, who by doing so then create space for the full backs. It’s the old Michels-Cruyff-Lobanovskiy idea of space being the crucial aspect of a football match.

This idea dovetails with your idea about creating over-manning mismatches in desirable areas, I guess, but it seems that a well-run false 9 system can do that.

Meantime, thinking of this, and how teams might respond to the false-nine-inverted-wingers system, what about the ‘95 Ajax team? I always remember it as being the best group of young players to emerge at once at a team before the current Barca crop, but it also might be relevant to this discussion. Thinking about it, didn’t Rijkaard come back from Milan and play as a libero in the back four, where he would sit deep in midfield, distributing, but also drop back to join Danny Blind in central defence, with Reizeger and Frank De Boer — hardly Cafu or Dani Alves when it comes to bombing forward — tucking in when Rijkaard pushed into midfield?

Perhaps that’s the model? Or at least, it has been done.

Anonymous on August 18, 2011 at 10:55 pm

All this talk about false nines. Is there really any other team besides Barca that plays this “false 9″ consistently with success? It seems to me “false nine” = Messi.

matt on August 19, 2011 at 12:11 am

Some teams other than Barcelona have had success with False 9’s. Roma were runners up in Serie A with Totti, Man U were runners up in England with Rooney (in 2009-2010), Arsenal and City were decent last season with Van Persie and Tevez respectively. At a stretch, you could count Di Natale for Udinese or Benzema for Madrid, but I consider them as strikers who happen to be creative, rather than authentic false 9’s.

However, Messi is one of a kind (unless you go way back and count Cruyff) in that he’s a goal threat even if he drops deep. This is because of his unmatched ability to dribble past multiple players and his ability to score from outside the box (I think he led Europe in goals from outside the box from open play last season, even over Ronaldo and Hulk).

The difference with Messi as false 9 is that he turns most central defender’s main asset (physical strength and height) into a weakness. Teams could start playing quicker and smaller players at center back in an attempt to combat Messi, or they could plan for the 99% of games when they don’t play against someone as good as Messi. For every false 9 a team plays against, they play against 10 Nikola Zigic/Andy Carroll types.

john on August 19, 2011 at 1:46 am

I agree too, no other team is playing like barca, but as matt said even without the whole inverted wingers thing, many teams play with a 9 joining his midfield more than making behind the defence runs.

So to me the “false 9″ is a real trend in football, even if it’s not as complemented and perfected as in barcelona for the other teams.

Carbo on August 19, 2011 at 5:39 am

Man City played with one last season, and Man U are looking as if they will this.

Trequartista from SA on August 19, 2011 at 6:50 am

The other teams mentioned besides Barca all had the traditional centre forwards and the players mentioned were playing as second strikers. As I mentioned below, this false nine position is suited to only a specific type of player. This tactic doesn’t work with teams that don’t play with permanent width because the fullbacks are then free to come inside and play close to the central defender and this negates the objective of the attacking team that is trying to isolate the central defence.

The false nine is Barcelonesque because of the freedom of play and the constant positional changing that takes place. It is a system that they have worked hard on and which they trust, otherwise all other teams would be employing this system.

The old Ronaldo could have played in this position, so is Ronaldinho,Diego, only special type of players that need the constant attention of central defenders.

matt on August 19, 2011 at 9:15 am

It seems like we’re having a bit of a problem defining what exactly constitutes a false 9. My definition is: an attacking midfielder or support striker played as a lone center forward, and given license to drop into midfield. The false 9 must be distinguished from the support striker role. Both retreat into midfield, but the false 9 has no center forward in front of him. Basically, Rooney by himself is a false 9, Rooney behind Hernandez is a support striker.

Off topic, but I think Del Piero would have made an amazing false 9 had he been born 10 years later. Also, I would have loved to see Bergkamp play the false 9 role for Ajax, but that was before my time.

I think the major thing here is that the false nine role has influenced the role of a lone striker. Tevez and Van Persie, for example, would never have played as a lone striker in England 5 years ago

Michael_Carmoody on August 19, 2011 at 6:51 pm

Actually, I think they would’ve.

Isaac on August 19, 2011 at 10:30 am

The totti example is a classic example of the false 9 being used effectively. But, as ZM points out, that Roma team didn’t really win much in terms of domestic or european trophies. Alex Ferguson famously got the better of it in the 7-1 win at old trafford by sacrificing space in between the lines but leaving his defense together and deep enough to stop Roma from creating anything. The scoreline might be exaggerated by some individual moments of brilliance from carrick and ronaldo, but that isn’t the important thing. This barcelona team is this barcelona team. Ferguson has miserably failed in all of his efforts to counter it. Even as a barcelona fan I will admit that some of those results had to do with fortune. Especially the match in Rome in 2009. But when it comes down to it this barcelona system is the best for what it is. It is more complicated than a false 9 coming in and wingers cutting in and full backs bombing forward. Messi seems to provide an intangible spark to the team. Xavi is the same way. Look at how bad the team was in the Bernabeu last week without him. Madrid will win but not in the same way as Barcelona. More importantly, Spain have won and will likely continue to win with a system largely built around Barcelona players. But, if you really look at it, even Spain don’t play like Barcelona nor do they try to

ian on August 19, 2011 at 6:03 pm

Rooney didn’t play as a false 8 in 2009/2010 he was just an out an out striker,hence why he scored so many goals.Obviously he come deep the odd time but so does every forward.

If Rooney did play as a false 9 he wouldn’t be able to score over 20 goals a season simply because he doesn’t have anywhere near the abilty Messi has.

Awahs on August 18, 2011 at 6:38 pm

I don’t think we’ll be done seeing standard goal-poaching centre-forwards for quite some time. Taking a look at both big South American nations at the latest Copa America, they were both clueless with a false-nine, but began to play very well with a classic centre-forward. Of course, Uruguay won the thing with a false nine, but there are still far too many teams that don’t see the value in false nines (I personally still prefer classic CFs). I think changes in midfield will continue to dominate the revolution of football for the next while.

A on August 18, 2011 at 8:16 pm

All correct, except Uruguay didn’t play a false nine.

Awahs on August 18, 2011 at 8:56 pm

Suarez wasn’t a traditional centre-forward, that’s for sure.

Blablabla37 on August 19, 2011 at 4:46 am

I think he was. He isn’t tall, but he used his strength excellently and held up the ball up front like a 6′5 Striker. If he did ever drop deep temporarily, Forlan took the Striker duties.

Fuad on August 18, 2011 at 6:38 pm

Bloody hell, that did my head in (Jonathan Wilson style), but I’m sure you speak sense…

Alican on August 18, 2011 at 9:17 pm

I totally agree with your points. I’ve also been suspecting that we’ll be back to formations similar to those in the 30’s-40’s, at least the way they look like on the chalkboard.

The following article proposes to use 2-3-2-3 to deal with 4-2-3-1 (They called it WW but the more appropriate naming would be MM, in line with the naming convention used in “Inverting the Pyramid” by Jonathan Wilson.)

But the false nine tactic is succesful only if you have a palyer like Messi who is fast and a good dribbler. Rooney has tried to play like this and failed, and a forward like Ibrahimovich could never be succesful in this role.

Alican on August 19, 2011 at 1:47 pm

I totally agree with your points. I’ve also been suspecting that we’ll be back to formations similar to those in the 30’s-40’s, at least the way they look like on the chalkboard.

This other article proposes to use 2-3-2-3 to deal with 4-2-3-1 (They called it WW but I believe the more appropriate naming would be MM, in line with the naming convention used in “Inverting the Pyramid” by Jonathan Wilson.)

Seeing that Barcelona is playing pretty much a 2-3-2-3, the second line of 3 consisting of Alves, Busquets and Abidal, it’s not surprising that they are giving Real a lot of trouble, coupled with the false-nine Messi. I think this formation is the natural way to counter a 4-2-3-1, and it will become popular again in the next few years with players moulding to play the appropriate roles.

4-4-2 -> 3-5-2 -> 4-3-3 -> 4-2-3-1 -> 2-3-2-3 -> ?

Michael_Carmoody on August 19, 2011 at 6:51 pm

? = 5

Carbo on August 20, 2011 at 12:31 am

Well, I think I’m right in saying that the answer to the W-W (2-3-2-3) was the W-M, but after that, in the late fifties through to the early seventies, it was the 4-4-2, wasn’t it?

I’ve also noticed, for instance, that a lot of players and coaches are waking up to Barca’s “pressing” off the ball. In this match, in the first half, Real’s pressing was irresistible. They piled five players into Barca’s third to cut off the usual route Barca use to build the play, from keeper, to centre backs and then to central midfielders dropping deep to pick up the ball and set the tempo.

Now, if pressing is once again going to squeeze the size of the effective playing area, will there be a need for four lines? Four lines became popular when the offside rule stopped defensive lines playing quite so high, which lengthened the effective playing area. Guardiola solved this problem by keeping Henry, Eto’o and Messi high up the pitch and pressing right from the front. Suddenly, the defence could play higher because midfielders and defenders didn’t have time to pick out the passes over the top or through the defence.

So, if fitness has caught up with offside again, and the effective playing area is going to be squeezed again by committing more players forward in the DEFENSIVE phase, then maybe three lines will be more suitable again?

Maybe not, but I just thought I’d throw that out there.

El Flaco on August 20, 2011 at 1:10 am

I very much doubt this system will become homogeneous throughout football. Does it not strike you that very few teams have utilised the system to date? Its been 5 or so years since Roma experimented with the system. The main reason being that football isn’t awash with players capable of making such a system work effectively. While the false 9/strikerless formations may influence the future outlook on the game it wont become the default mode of play.

goope on August 18, 2011 at 6:35 pm

Could you all please stop insluting the other team?

Everywhere on the internet serious discussions for grown ups are impossible because people just post to insult the rival team. At least here we could discuss without defamation.
Thank you.

HerbChambers on August 18, 2011 at 7:11 pm

Agreed. I hate seeing insulting comments on this website about tactics.

quilmes on August 25, 2011 at 7:31 am

Yes, great point goope. Save the trash-talking for somewhere else, please.

This is a site about tactics. I’m a Barcelona fan, but to me, that’s pretty irrelevant when I come here. Good tactics are good tactics–they have nothing to do with how much you like a team or player.

I think most of us really appreciate ZM’s smart and unbiased analysis. Imagine how terrible this blog would be if he wrote things like “Cristiana Ronaldo sux lolz” or “Farcelona r cheaters, only winning because they own the referees.” None of us would ever return. So what makes you think we want to read that kind of nonsense in the comments? We don’t.

freud on August 18, 2011 at 6:40 pm

Zonal Marking, don’t you think that the amount of goals scored on barca are an interesting tactical feature of both legs? They rarely concede goals, let alone 4.

Set pieces are a known weakness for us. So is clearing the ball. They only got one goal from open play, which is about right, given the state of our defense these days. That’s attributable to a resurgent Ozil and Benzema.

Real had quite a lot occasions for scoring more from an open play (Ozil, Ronaldo hitting the post, pre-1st-goal of Benzema and Khedira). Barca was quite “lucky” in that regard, they defense was a bit shaky at times, which is understandable at this point of the season.

sibelkacem on August 18, 2011 at 8:02 pm

We can put that down to:
1/ lack of CBs. Mascherano is converted DM, Abidal is converted LB, Pique is after injury, Puyol is still missing;
2/ pre-season. Barcelona’s lack of conceded goals is mainly (imo) because of their dominance during the game. Possession, high-pressing upfront, an opponent doesn’t get many chances to score a goal. Biggest part of the story is not about their ‘fantastic’ defence, but about what happens in other zones of the pitch;
3/ Real Madrid. They decreased the level of kicking and biting, and focused more on playing football. And a team with a single player worth more than the whole Barcelona squad is suppposed to score goals, when they finally get down to playing football.

Anonymous on August 18, 2011 at 10:09 pm

splitting hairs, i know, but the value of fabregas, villa and sanchez is more than ronaldo

Anonymous on August 18, 2011 at 10:57 pm

It really wasn’t Masch or Abidal. Both played great. It was Busquets, Xavi, and especially Pique who made sloppy passes in their own territory. Also, RM was pressing very hard. The rustiness plus the hard pressing resulted in many dangerous giveaways.

Anonymous on August 20, 2011 at 5:54 pm

Right, I forgot to count new Barça signings. Fab+Sanchez is ~80m, so it seems the saying about Ronaldo and Barcelona is no longer valid. Too bad.

I agree, Ozil and Benzema are looking very good right now. As a Barcelona supporter, I’m much more alarmed when Ozil or Benzema get the ball than Cristiano Ronaldo. Ronaldo currently is playing too predictably, Alves really took advantage of that.

The two goals Madrid scored at Camp Nou were just atrociously bad defensive freeze-ups… I really hope we shake that out of our system. That being said, Barcelona could’ve definitely conceded from open play, Madrid threatened quite a few times.

Ronaldo poses most threat when left with a lot of space, therefore Alves had to stay with him all the time – the positive effect of that for Real was that Alves didn’t took part in Barca’s attacks that much.

Great point. I guess I was just surprised that Alves was able to defend Ronaldo that effectively, given that Dani is usually lauded for his attacking capabilities. But he was clearly given specific instructions to limit his forays forward.

Indeed. I was quite surprised at Ronaldo being played on the right so that the more defensive-minded di María could track Alves — fighting fire with fire makes more sense in this situation, I think.

Blablabla37 on August 19, 2011 at 4:57 am

Yeah, but the result was that Ronaldo was (almost) completely nullified by Alves. Real Madrid losing Ronaldo’s attacking input is a bigger loss than Barcelona losing Alves’ attacking input.

Benzema, and Ozil up to a point, are the biggest dangers for Barcelona. Benzema is finally showing his Lyon talent at Madrid, and I see him scoring +30 goals this coming season. Ozil’s vision is unbelievable, but Busquets is capable of taking him out the game when he is on form. Busquets played a few careless balls, and was often beaten on the 1v1s, but he is so intelligent, and if I had to give a DM the job of marking Sneijder or Ozil, I would give it to Busquets.

MMT on August 18, 2011 at 8:29 pm

Is it just me or does CR look like he’s lost a step? With Man U, he seemed to be able to beat defenders and cut inside. Against Barca, he was constantly being forced wide into less threatening areas.

stephan on August 18, 2011 at 9:42 pm

I’d hesitate before jumping to the conclusion that he’s lost a step. It is still pre-season and he’s probably still working into top shape, but I’d answer that the more likely reason is that Barca basically defended him with at least two, and often three players every time he received the ball – Alves as the first defender, with Mascherano close behind to cover if Ronaldo skipped by Alves down the line and with Xavi or Busquets sprinting back into the space which Ronaldo would normally cut inside into. Even though Ronaldo was relatively quiet these two matches (by his standards, he played poorly), simply his presence on the pitch pulled Barca’s defence out of its ideal shape and created space for the rest of the Madrid midfield to move into.

Anonymous on August 18, 2011 at 10:59 pm

Not really true Stefan. Ronaldo was stripped cleanly on multiple occasions by Alves and Masch completely isolated. Not once did he generate a dangerous play when he had the ball in full stride.

stephan on August 19, 2011 at 1:17 am

@anonymous – Correct, of course, but a correct point that is in no way a response to anything I wrote above. Although considering you couldn’t be bothered to spell my name correctly, I’m guessing you did not take the thirty seconds to actually read carefully and think about what I was saying before hitting the reply button.

Elwood on August 19, 2011 at 4:57 am

IMO I think the reason is because of a change of role from the one he had at Man Utd.

He scored a lot under Ferguson, but he was still more of a winger than forward and expected to create or beat a defender and send a cross in.

Now under Mourinho he’s practically a striker playing on the wing, whenever he gets the ball he just release it to the nearest player immediately and try to get into a goal-scoring position.

A very different type of inverted winger, compared to say Robben and di Maria.

MMT on August 18, 2011 at 6:41 pm

Great write up. And now we know why Barca was so interested in Fabregas–he’s a more vertical passer/player than Xavi, and will exploit the defenses seams right away.

ProFF7 on August 18, 2011 at 8:29 pm

Agreed. Search “Cesc vs Madrid” in Youtube and find why. He contacted few balls in the little time he had, but his impact on the game was inmediate and a pain for Madrid. He widened up the field with long passes, recovered a ball with a clean tackle, participated in Barça decissive goal, and gave a perfect assist for Messi that should have been a goal. Even provoked a red card, all this in 15 min. I have also noticed that his off the ball movement is great and comparable to Xavi, creates triangles and passing options everywhere.

I can see his role when the season begins, will be initially as a substitute and entering the game on 2nd halfs, when rivals are weared physically, and Barça needs more deep and direct play, at that kind of situations Cesc could be devastating as he was against Madrid.

Seybold on August 19, 2011 at 2:23 am

Excellent points. I agree Fabregas offers something different–he isn’t just an inferior version of Xavi/Iniesta.

Frankie on August 19, 2011 at 6:56 pm

It’s ok being inferior to Xavi or Iniesta, I just hope he isn’t inferior to Thiago.

What’s also interesting to me, pursuant to a Goal.com piece about how the arrival of Fabregas will usher in Guardiola’s ultimate adaptation of Total Football, is that Barca ended the match with 5 functional midfielders on the pitch: Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Busquets, Adriano.

A colleague’s match review suggests that Mourinho erred by trying to press, but not press fully, thus leaving an exploitable gap for our attackers. Thoughts?

Remember that Real also is not 100% fit yet, they weren’t able to press “fully” for 90 minutes.

Gib on August 18, 2011 at 8:05 pm

Real has been in preseason a lot longer than Barca has. They had 20+ training sessions. Barca’s preseason in America was mostly with the B team. Also Copa America players didnt come till early August.

sibelkacem on August 18, 2011 at 8:09 pm

They will never be able to press for 90 minutes. Still, they managed to press for a long time yesterday, but only because they faced weaker Barcelona. When Real becomes 100% fit, Barcelona will also be fitter, and so that the time of intense pressing from Real will not increase.

Raul on August 18, 2011 at 7:35 pm

I think you need Busquets (or Mascherano) as DM for the key games. His absence in the first leg was evident. Perhaps Fabregas could play the DM in games against weak La Liga (or Champions League Group Stage) clubs that are likely to defend deep and play with only one forward.

Is Fabregas a better DM than Keita? I don’t know. Maybe, but I think even Fabregas would have struggled against Madrid in the DM position.

Fabregas isn’t a DM at all. He’s an attacking mid that at times comes deep to gather the ball. He’s not a great tackler (despite that amazing tackle on Vieira that signalled a torch passed).

matt on August 19, 2011 at 8:14 pm

Xavi is more likely to play at the base of midfield than Fabregas. That role can reduce the amount of running that Xavi must do, and help Barca build from the back even better than they already do (they struggled to advance the ball when Benzema pressed). Xavi can play the Guardiola role instead of the exhausting box to box role that he currently plays. In the absence of Puyol I would run a 3-1-3-3.
Valdes
Pique/Busquets/Abidal or Mascherano/Pique/Abidal (Mascherano isn’t as good a passer as Busquets, but his pace covers really well for Alves’ attacking runs)
Xavi
Alves/Fabregas/Iniesta
plus the standard front 3

Alex on August 18, 2011 at 6:50 pm

There really is no way to contain Messi. I’m impressed with Real managing to score 4 goals in two games against Barca.

3rnald0 on August 18, 2011 at 11:34 pm

Barca’s defence is pretty easy to penetrate in my opinion, the reason they dont concede many is because teams barely have any time to attack them as barca have so much possession. to back up this theory, real madrid kept a much bigger chunk of possession against barca this time around and scored 2 and could have been more.

Gib on August 19, 2011 at 12:16 am

Tbh barca also had some good chances too. The first goal madrid scored might of been offside. Two goals conceded was just bad defending from corner kicks

Alex on August 19, 2011 at 12:23 am

Their back line might not be great but their defensive unit works like no other, every time a Madrid player had the ball 4 Barca players were on him right away. They press very hard in the opposition half and in the mid field area, I just can’t understand how they manage to do this for 90 mins without over committing and getting tired!

AK on August 19, 2011 at 8:58 am

The back line ain’t that bad either. Real Madrid have a lot of resources in attack yet most of their goals have come from set pieces. And how many goals have Man Utd, the dominant force of the Premier League, managed against Barcelona down the years? Not many.

It’s a wonder that they don’t concede more goals given their commitment to get forward and score so the back line never gets as much credit as it deserves, starting with the keeper.

3rnald0 on August 19, 2011 at 10:36 pm

because like i just said, they have so much possession the opposition hardly have any time to attack them

HerbChambers on August 18, 2011 at 7:08 pm

this is a reply to Carbo above (button wouldn’t work):

Carbo: your kind of comment is gold. Keep it up. It’s intriguing that the center back position will have to have so many more dimensions than traditionally thought of.

And I think it’s possible that not both fullbacks have to be defensive minded. There have been instances of unbalanced, lopsided formations.

Or how about a defensive winger to assist an offensive fullback when he goes forward?

Anyway, it’s comments like yours that get people THINKING about future possibilities.

Carbo on August 18, 2011 at 8:01 pm

Ah! Much appreciated, thanks.

I think there’s plenty of room for lop-sided defensive formations. The Italians have traditionally played them very well, for instance.

It seems to be a strangely English obsession that formations must be symmetrical. I don’t think any other nation would have fretted nearly as much about the absence of a left winger, for instance, to play on the other side to David Beckham. The Italians certainly wouldn’t.

john on August 20, 2011 at 3:20 am

I believe the germans and french always want symmetricality too, maybe it’s because those countries are more about physical play and rythmn whereas the latino nations are more about tactical precision and “harmony” of play.

In one hand you want your team to be united, solid to get your team to the highest level even if it means not using the full potential of your best elements (gerrard on the left for example).

In the other hand, you want your team to be the most dangerous/offensive possible, so you put your best elements at their best positions, and the you adapt your other players to be ok defensively.

That’s why in argentina you have defenders confortable playing under pressure and stars used to not defending.

In brazil neymar is playing in his false winger santos position now and it’s robinho/jadson’s problem to ajust to neymar’s game to be efficient, and when dunga had his rigid and symmetrical team they talked about european football in brazil.

I’m digressing from a north vs latin thing to an europa vs sth america thing here, but I don’t see rooney playing on a side like he did in united if he were brazilian, or italian etc
(tracking the opponent is part of his game because he’s english and not brazilian, so he wouldn’t have this caracteristic if he were brazilian but still…)

Also in italy they acknowledged that putting your out-of-this-world star in the best conditions often means no symmetricality because this player always is a second striker there: del piero, totti, baggio, this means forgetting 1 striker formations, symmetricaly simple 433’s etc, and also playing 1 striker formations with your 2 strikers formations, so 4 vs 5 in midfield and tactical precision necessary.

In “north” europa asymmetrycality means weakpoint slowing down your pressuring using/losing rythmn whereas in latino countries it’s more about creating a real chance every 5 minutes, and then preparing for a real chance again than trying to score every 2 minutes, even with weak but opponent tiring attemps.

Defenders are bound to get more versatile as attackers do. if centerbacks stepping out of defense is the way forward, it will still be imprtant for them to be capable classic defenders or attacking sides will just resort to a more classic pair of wingers and center forward. The key here is that the offense is more versatile than the defense so they are capable of doing things like false 9 plus inside forwards. When the defense becomes versatile this may change.

RedMan on August 18, 2011 at 7:38 pm

Great article! but I have a question

so what was Xabi’s (or Khedira/Coentrao) role when Carvalho was tracking Messi? Shouldn’t that be the defensive midfielders job? Unless the point here is to double up on Messi, Real should have a “spare” man in midfield to help

Alican on August 18, 2011 at 9:22 pm

Taking care of Xavi and Iniesta.

Fred on August 18, 2011 at 9:38 pm

I think that’s the issue really. What you just described is the Defensive Midfielder’s job, but Real lack a true midfield destroyer. That’s why they went fishing last year and tried using Pepe in that role. Xabi Alonso is more of a deep lying ball player, and Khedira doesn’t really get stuck in in that way either. If they had a guy like Mascherano, he could drop back to cover for Carvalho when Carvalho tracked Messi. Or more extreme, Nigel de Jong, could make Messi’s life fairly miserable while keeping the back 4 intact.

Granted, the current alternative on Real (Pepe) is a red card machine…

3rnald0 on August 18, 2011 at 11:44 pm

lass diarra = destroyer…would make no difference, its a tactical problem not a personel problem

problem is that Barcelona already have 3 midfielders along with Messi so they are going to out number Real Madrid’s 3 men which means someone is free. The problem lies in the fact that they have redundant centerbacks and something needs to be done to solve this without destoying the teams shape and still allowing them to play as a back 4 in a pinch because Barca could simply move Messi to the right, Villa through the middle, and Pedro left and then two centerbacks are necessary all without changing personel.

Greekfreak on August 19, 2011 at 5:17 am

If by making Messi’s life miserable, you mean De Jong could Bruce Lee him down to size, I agree.

Fred on August 19, 2011 at 9:49 am

Yeah, I meant like Pepe but with even less restraint.

MMT on August 19, 2011 at 1:55 pm

To me, Xabi is totally wasted in Mou’s system. With the ball at his feet, he reads the field beautifully, and is capable of controlling the play in ways that are different from Xavi, but still with the same finesse. Exactly how much of the ball did he see against Barca? A touch here and there?

CONFUSED on August 18, 2011 at 9:40 pm

Some great comments, thought I do have one question:

Why is it the CB’s responsibility to cover Messi if he drops in between the lines? Why doesn’t the two CDMs stagger to prevent Messi, and then the wide attacking players cave in to prevent a numerical advantage?

Would like to hear some thoughts…

3rnald0 on August 19, 2011 at 12:15 am

CDM’S are occupied with xavi and iniesta and the wide players are occupied with the full backs.

DOF on August 18, 2011 at 10:11 pm

Real would need someone like C. Gentile to do this well.
Nothing new as Gentile (for Italy 82) was CB who would push to man mark Maradona and Zico.
Agree Pepe would have been better suited.

Zero on August 19, 2011 at 8:30 pm

Every team could do with someone like Claudio Gentile. Still, Pepe’s probably Madrid’s closest fit, if slightly less entertaining to watch, and I suspect we’re likely to see him back in the defensive midfield role which he was so effective in when Madrid next find themselves facing Barcelona in an important match. While he seems to have gained his fair share of enemies doing this, football is, after all, not for ballerinas.

3rnald0 on August 18, 2011 at 11:04 pm

think you got this one wrong ZM. Messi was let to roam, and as soon as he got the ball in the hole and turned then carvalho closed him, giving him no chance as it was too late. This is different to carvalho tracking his movements so when messi receives the ball back to goal he cannot turn as carvalho is already there up his ass.

I disagree – watch the first goal – Carvalho is practically in a left-wing-back position to pick up Messi

gion on August 18, 2011 at 11:15 pm

In other words: Barca’s system at the moment really is a 4-4-2 diamond (aka 4-1-2-1-2 or 4-3-1-2) but with the 2 most forward players playing wide. Counter it with a formation that has always proven effective against 2 ’striker’ formations: a 3-man defence, fullbacks/wingbacks not considered.

3rnald0 on August 18, 2011 at 11:41 pm

yes good idea, but then if messi was simply instructed to stay high it would create a 3v3 situation where every barca attacker would be one-on-one with no defensive cover for each defender which would be a great situation for barca.

Locost on August 19, 2011 at 3:37 am

Isn’t the problem with Barca the fact their system is so fluid. It’s capable of being 4-3-3, a diamond (4-1-2-1-2), 3-4-1-2, and 3-4-3 depending on where Busquets and Messi position themselves.

Play 3 at the back against them and they will simply push Messi high up the pitch and then you’ve got the classic 3 man defense vs 3 man attack problem. Who parks the wide forwards? If its the left and right centrebacks you’ve got no cover through the middle because the third centrback is 1 v1 with Messi. If its the wingbacks you’ve got two covering defenders through the middle and no offensive width.

What you need to do against Barca is deploy a Paul Ince (a la Euro96) or a Frank Rijkaard. A Midfielder who can drop in to make a back 4 when Barca have three up; but, can push out and function as a midfielder when Messi drops into the hole.

In addition you will need old fashioned fullbacks (Venables used Neville and Peare in 1996). That is, 2 defensive fullbacks instead of the wothdrawn wingers that occupy the position these days. Players who are comfortable operating out wide in a 4, but will happlity cover the middle when Barca have two up.

Excellent point, have been thinking about this. The main problem being that if your team doesn’t play 3 at the back regularly (ie Udinese last season) then to revert to this formation for one game would almost definitely be problematic.

With this in mind, man-marking Messi is a possible solution. Difficult for 90 mins, but a reasonable tactic that seems to have gone out of the game.

Ramos could be key in this scenario – a player very comfortable at RB and CB could prove invaluable from switching from a back 3 to 4.

Diverinho on August 19, 2011 at 2:10 pm

Messi is able to play as a ’striker’ and as a ‘midfielder’, and he actually does both in his false9 role. So when playing a 3-man defence, your spare man still has to be able to both play as a ‘defender’ and as a ‘(defensive) midfielder’. Man-marking Messi would also work, if there was a player quick, stamina-ish, and intelligent enough to do that job without being red-carded…

Billy on August 19, 2011 at 12:49 am

Just thinking aloud here… but given the prevalence of using wingers to “pin back” opposing fullbacks, why isn’t the same principle ever applied to attacking midfielders? In other words, instead of playing two holding midfielders against Barca, play a midfield triangle similar to their own, with two attacking midfielders and one holder? The idea would be to force one of Xavi/Iniesta to play deeper, further isolating Messi and reducing the risk of leaving just one centerback playing deep.

I suppose I can answer my own question- the simple response is that midfielders have defenders playing behind them to begin with, whereas fullbacks have no one behind them, and so midfielders don’t need to be drop deep to cover players. In this scenario, Xavi and Iniesta would be comfortable with the knowledge that Pique or Puyol could step up into the midfield and defend if need be.

the other answer is because no other team has midfielders quite as comfortable in possession as Barca. if you match the midfield 3 with an attacking midfield 3, they would bypass time and again.

Locost on August 19, 2011 at 1:59 am

I think its interesting that slowly people are comming to the conclusion that to stop a false nine like messi operating in a 4-3-3, you need Van Gaal’s 3-4-3, the ststem he used to Win the European Cup for Ajax with in 1995

Elwood on August 19, 2011 at 5:10 am

Honestly as a defender myself I don’t know how to stop Messi.

He’s not a physically complete player like Ronaldo, but he’s what I call a technically complete player.

Calm and composed enough to play short passes to retain possession, vision and ability for defense-splitting killer passes, godlike dribbling to beat 3-4 elite defenders by himself, great finish both tap-ins and long-shots, good off-the-ball for both offensive and defensive purposes like getting into dangerous positions, constantly making himself an outlet for an easy pass and simple hardworking pressing.

Neymar's True Biological Father on August 19, 2011 at 5:18 am

lol

Yeah. With his technique, intelligence, movement, and eye for passes, in the next 15 years from now we could see Messi is still playing football in a deep-playmaker role. Ronaldo? I doubt that.

Greekfreak on August 19, 2011 at 5:22 am

It’s actually quite simple–you have to play the ball as cleanly as possible and ultimatly muscle him away from the net. It involves a lot of fouling but it can be done with a bit of luck, a size advantage, and a strict-man-marking edict. Sokratis Papastathopoulos did a wonderful job of keeping him in check in Greece’s match with Argentina last summer at the WC.

Not always cleanly, but that’s how we grew up playing soccer in Canada

Kevo on August 19, 2011 at 5:36 am

Copenhagen FC did a wonderful job in CL 2010 shutting Messi and Barca. And they did it in a clean way.

Sam on August 20, 2011 at 8:31 am

“Copenhagen FC did a wonderful job in CL 2010 shutting Messi and Barca” – He did scored three goals in two games against them.

matt on August 19, 2011 at 8:38 pm

It takes some degree of luck though. At the Emirates, Arsenal did everything possible to stop him. They made him receive the ball with his back to goal, didn’t allow him time to turn, didn’t allow him space to accelerate, they forced him to his right, and they cut off his give and go options (by fair means or foul, teams can’t let Messi play those one twos. Off the ball violence is vital to stopping Messi.). He still broke through a few times, but failed to beat Almunia. The point is, no matter how well you defend, he is going to have chances. A team just needs to hope for great goalkeeping or poor finishing. There are tactics that can reduce his opportunities, but no way to completely contain him.

I suspect that when the serious games come about, Mourinho will go back to playing deeper against Barcelona. Here, it’s a pre-season match, so he could afford to give his players a run about, and they were notably quite aggressive. However, it did make the game into a bit of a toss-up, and I’m not sure that Mourinho would be satisfied with that if he were in a league or Champion’s League match.

Yang on August 19, 2011 at 9:19 am

Mr Mou keep closing to win. I can see still Mou need some work though. Madrid performance is improved a lot.

i think the best way to slow down messi we have seen may have been koscielny, doing like carvalho in this game but with more success.

personally, against barca i would play with 3 defenders to cope with the 2 wingers, one guy specificaly on dani alves (malouda, coentrao, marcelo, nasri…); 2 strikers pressing on the 2 CB and abidal (no way going forward as much as alves, make it 1 striker on abidal, 1 on the 2 CB if you want); and the 4 remaining players to cope with messi, iniesta, xavi, busquets,(!!!) so one of them able to fit in the defence when needed because of messi’s movements.If the 2 strikers can also press on busquets it won’t be a luxury ^^

so my formation would start as a 352 but with the versatility to switch to a 532/541 whenever it’s needed.

Also that’s my tactic before fabregas’ arrival because now they’ve like the double tactical possibilities from last year in my opinion ^^

Mike on August 19, 2011 at 4:21 pm

Flexibility and universality are surely the watchwords here. For this system to work, you need brilliantly rounded players, with a back four who are ALL comfortable with tracking Messi out, and would have to be brilliantly organised positionally to deal with the transitions to and from a 3-4 man defence. Messi is such a clever player, that if you set one specific man on him, he’ll simply go somewhere else – drop deeper, or wide, so you need the full backs to get after him as well. However, I’d argue that this article doesn’t really address the other benefit for Barcelona of Messi’s false nine role – yes it is a potent weapon offensively for creating space should the opponent play a high line, but if they stand off then you are giving Barcelona even more of a monopoly of possession, as they have a 4 man midfield which you cannot hope to match if you leave your back 4 at home in a 4-5-1 formation – unless your forward too joins the midfield, dropping in on Busquets. Of course, they will dominate possession anyway, but leave Messi room in any area of the pitch, and he will run at pace at your deep defence, something which is difficult to stop, and probably break through your midfield to get a shot at goal at some stage. This is probably more a beating Barcelona issue than a beating the False 9 issue, however.

sidjeen on August 19, 2011 at 4:45 pm

phew. after reading every post so far i am delighted that with so much brain storming we still are no closer to find out how to stop barca. i think most people dont realize that this barca side actually plays with three players who were No 1 2 and 3 in last season’s fifa player of the year awards even if you were to man mark all three i.e xavi ineista and messi they would still beat most teams with the almost unbelievable talent that these three footballers have. i guess if a team have a scholes like passer a mekelele like destroyer and an owen hargreves like dynamic midfielders they might have a chance to beat this barca side but wait you would also need a ronaldo (the real one) like striker to actually score against them

Daniel on August 19, 2011 at 7:05 pm

Mourinho stop them two years ago with Inter, in probably best defensive games in the modern football.
Real are on that path, they just need to master that, and that need time and patience.
And maybe one more player.

matt on August 19, 2011 at 8:25 pm

Against Barcelona, most teams fail to get attacking width, because their fullbacks and wingers are pinned back in their own half (most notable Antonio Valencia at Wembley and Samir Nasri at the Camp Nou). This narrows their attack, and makes balls over the top nearly impossible to complete. If the ball is a foot long, Valdes sweeps. A foot short, Pique wins it.

Madrid finally figured out how to stretch Barca’s defense in the Supercopa. Instead of attacking down the flank with a winger, they allowed their center forward Benzema to drift wide. This pulled Abidal and Mascherano apart, and created space for Ozil and Ronaldo to attack the box. Madrid played long balls down the wing for Benzema to chase, and this created lots of danger. Villarreal did a similar thing with Giuseppe Rossi, which also caused problems. The problem is, the striker has to be mobile enough to drift wide, powerful enough to beat Abidal or Pique in the air, and creative enough to pick out the runners into the box. Lucky for Madrid, Benzema’s one of the few strikers who have all of those attributes.

FanOfSkill on August 20, 2011 at 9:01 am

I am a fan of Benzema, but sorry he doesn’t fit your definition of a complete striker, as he is not that good in the air. Not enough to compete with the likes of Pique anyway.

BTW great site – Thank you ZM and commenters – informative, insightful and entertaining.

sidjeen on August 20, 2011 at 4:17 pm

sorry to say Daniel but that was a one off first of all barca played differently in those games from the system they play now they played with ibrahimovic upfront in that game as a classic CF while messi played on the wing and the game that was played at the san siro barca did not had iniesta which destroyed the balance of that barca side plus they had a very poor game at the san siro conceded i think 2 or 3 goals and made the job easy for inter when they came to camp nou and even though you called it the best defensive game in the modern football inter actually lost the game.

Mthu on August 21, 2011 at 6:39 am

Yeah, Inter lost at Camp Nou, but barely. Barca only managed ONE miserable goal despite their best-in-the-world firepower, and that’s way after they (Busquets) faked injury to get Inter’s Motta red-carded. Against strong and/or tactical opponents, Barca could never win without resorting to cheap tricks and faking to reduce the other side to 10 men to gain numerical advantage.

Barca is nice from far, but far from nice.

Loco Wu on August 21, 2011 at 11:58 pm

Inter were merely an average team that benefited from a referee with close ties to Mourinho. An offside goal and a disallowed Barcelona goal is what allowed them to win the series.

Until now all teams coached by Mourinho have resorted to violence in an attempt to destroy Barcelona’s game. I fear for the damage he is causing to Real Madrid’s image.

Hector Maquieira on August 19, 2011 at 6:05 pm

I must be missing something, but isn’t the role of defending a false 9 perfectly suited to a classic defending midfielder like Mascherano? On the other hand, isn’t pulling a CB out of the back line playing right into Guardiola’s plans?
I envision a 4-1-3-2 (or 4-1-2-1-2; 4-1-4-1; 4-1-2-2-1) where the defensive midfielder tracks the false 9 (Messi). Then two or three other midfielders cover the opposing midfielders, (Xavi/Iniesta). Why not have Xabi Alonso/Khedira/Pepe(midfielder) tracking Messi? Then, even if the DM gets outdribbled/outmaneuvered by Messi, you still have two CBs who can step up/cover Messi while the DM gets back into position.

Daniel on August 19, 2011 at 7:00 pm

Real is better and also much more prepared for Barcelona, compared to last year.
This two games prove that. Real has improved on almost all areas, while Barcelona stay much or less the same.
Real were arguably better team over two legs, they played much more offensive and pressing football.
Real are still very vulnerable on their left side in defense, while they also lack reliable and clinic goalscorer in offense. They will have to organize their defensive line much better. They look very confuse at the times. They also lack condition for 90` of pressing Barcelona defense, but I guess that is understandable this early in the season.
Barcelona on the other hand is still most difficult team to play against in the world. Sanchez and Cesc are extra-talents who will undoubtedly fit very well in their system, but i`m still suspicious about their defense line, and their capability to resist constant pressure.
Real scored 4 goals in two games, and before the games I would guess that would be enough to win the Supercopa. Bad call.
Ronaldo was really poor in both games, Di Maria also, while Benzema could have done lot more for his team.
Di Maria is problem for me. He would be great player to enter in the second half, bringing energy and creativity after the starting power-game time. Kaka should get much more chances, without sacrificing Real formation.
I will also make very dare call, but I think that Sahin, when he would be fit, should start over Xabi Alonso.
Real will continue to improve, that is imminent. Barca will also raise their conditioning level, and will be much prepare for their next game.
So, we are all waiting for probably best football games in last decade or even more.

Kandinsky on August 19, 2011 at 7:28 pm

People are too worried about defending against Barça, but forget that you need to apply depth to counter them. You simply cannot counter them byt tracking everyone, you have to take risks. The most suitable formation for me is similar to Real Madrid: a 4×4x1×1 would do the job. But it’s complicated, since you would need full concentration and stamina from the 4 defenders and the double pivot.
Real Madrid has several problems:
1 – Carvalho is not pacey enough at this time of his career to make the system work agains such a quality side.
2 – Real Madrid double pivot are not energic and agressive enough to keep the miedfield tight. Alonso and Khedira simply don’t have the energy to keep things tight.
3 – Ronaldo + Benzema are not disciplined enough to keep their teamwork at high level, so I don’t think they can’t play together agains Barça.

The ideal would be:
GK: A sweeper-keeper, so the d-line would be able to feel safe to help on the pressure and marking.
Full-Backs: Strong on man-marking
Center-Backs: keep their focus during all game, since they will be dragged out of position for several times.
Double-pivot’s: Energic, determined and agressives.
Side Miedfielders: Disciplined and try to get into the attack.
Offensive-Miedfielder: The key player. He will make sure Busquets must be ocuppied, which will make Barça’s miedfield to play deeper.
Striker: Mobility is required.

So you wouldn’t have any wingers to pin back Abidal or more importantly Alves? You need depth upfront. Alves can kill a team if he’s not forced to stay honest defensively or if you give him room to run.

123kid on August 19, 2011 at 9:31 pm

real will never beat barca as long as they play 3 selfish mercenary players( rolondo,dimaria,benzema). at most only 1 of them should play. when barca attack, the player on the ball knows where his teammate will run. when real attack, rolondo and dimaria just cut-inside and shoot.

and why is mou still using that dummy marcelo at leftback? half of barcas goals in the last few clasicos were because of him. such a poor defender.

3rnald0 on August 19, 2011 at 10:40 pm

still havent said how your going to stop messi? the main problem.

Mader on August 20, 2011 at 6:55 am

Sahin and Khedira and Diarra should be in midfield

Let Khedira link up with attacking Midfield while he is still able to distract Barca midfield at there own half.

only problem i see in attack is with Ronaldo on the wings where his speed advantage but don’t really defense well. Ozil can be play as any position at offense would be good enough. Ronaldo should be ideal to play at front as let him finish when the ball came. we need Benzema as mobile stricker where he can also defense as well.

Marking Messi is very important let him make less passes or create less chances will help REAL to gain more access in the field. Messi biggest weakness is frustration when he couldn’t able to pass effective or loose goal scoring chance then tend of slow down his ability. Diarra or Sahin have to mark him while Khedira and Benzema or ozil have to shut down Xavi and Iniesta. let Pedro and Villa deal with back 4.

let Ronaldo as lone attacker when Barca is in possession . my ideal invert tactical line up

Ronaldo

Benzema Ozil

Sahin Diarra Kheidira

Coentrão Pepe Carvalho Ramos

Keith on August 19, 2011 at 9:12 pm

Why not play Khedira or Diarra in the back? When Arsenal beat Barcelona in London it was Song who chased Messi any time he went deep. Song’s speed neutralized (as best as possible) Messi’s agility/speed advantage over the back four.

So if I was Real Madrid I’d play Coentrao and Khedira in the midfield (using both as engines to chase down and press Xavi and Iniesta) and a back four of Marcelo, Diarra, Pepe, and Ramos. Ramos can man mark Villa (who is a striker so it’s like having a CB inside, just both are on the right), Marcelo using his speed to match Sanchez, Diarra pressing Messi and Pepe deep to foul/slow down Messi if he beats Diarra.

3rnald0 on August 19, 2011 at 10:42 pm

the way to stop messi is to play a quick defender at centre back who is rarely beaten one-on-one and get him to man mark messi, but track him so when messi receives the ball he’s back to goal and can only set it to a team mate.

ideal candidate: Ashley Cole

das lucho on August 20, 2011 at 3:50 am

do you like
************drogba
*******************anelka
*************benayoun
*******lampard*****mceachran
malouda******essien
******a.cole**terry**d.luiz

?

maybe obi mikel instead of a lightweight and essien higher

ashley cole is not on messi as in your idea but he’s more central than usual anyway this way

malouda is here to battle with dani alves as nasri did

i placed mceachran and a lightweight midfield because tactical reading and keeping the ball is as important as reducing spaces to me

in my opinion the difference between this team and real madrid is drogba’s faculty to receive the ball from anywhere and keep it, a real breath of oxygen every time you can reach him
also you don’t have ronaldo’s faculty to lose the ball quickly with his solo attemps, the same with di maria’s
but coentrao, marcelo, carvalho, khedira match the comparison with malouda etc

you mention ashley cole but what about koscielny? he did great against messi with arsenal, better than carvalho

drexler on August 20, 2011 at 3:12 am

Incredible astute analysis and pleasant discussion here. This site is has to be one the best unbiased footballing websites. Thanks Zonal Marking.

Really fed up with Barcelona vs Real Madrid saga. I will not watch another single El Clasico again.

Can’t teams use a method of squeezing the area to stop Barca? I don’t mean a usual offside trap, but more of a method like Mainz used in their campaign early. Or maybe draw them to the centre of the pitch and make the pitch narrow? I don’t see any other way to beat them. The best chance will come only when Xavi retires. No offence to Fabregas and Co. but really no one has the same level of patience as Xavi does.

********************

I saw a dream that Real Madrid and Barcelona failing to win the La Liga and Valenicia winning the league.:)

Fizan on August 21, 2011 at 5:33 pm

great analysis as usual ZM..! keep up the good work.

But i was wondering. Although this is a tactical site, you are representing everything good about football. Despite being a great manager who have achieved a lot, i think it’s a shame you have Mourinho’s picture on the top of your website. There are many managers who have been or still are great tacticians and highly successful with style, humbleness, and dignity (sir alex ferguson and pep guardiola most recently). These managers have achieved great success but with humility and is a reference for their success as much as their footballing personality. I think most of your readers would agree that the same cannot be said about Mourinho, sadly, irrespective of which teams we support. What he did at the end of the spanish super cup match, we have never seen any manager do, even amateur ones. Poking the eye of another professional, making ’smelly’ faces at opponent players, and even afterwards not having the minimum decency to apologise is beyond comprehension. We’ve seen many other great managers lose with style and dignity. If your site’s intention to post Mourinho is to put the face of a great tactician, i think that has failed, because he has failed to destruct Barca’s progress and in defeat has shown his true colours when he is not winning easily.

Just a suggestion, nothing more, because Mourinho, no matter how great he can be, is a disgrace now in the world of football. Maybe not having the picture of any great manager is better than having someone like that as the first thing people see when they open this great website! What do you think?

Marck on August 21, 2011 at 9:45 pm

What can one think ? Another barcelona propaganda machinery at work.. Can’t you guys atleast leave this kind of websites to only tactical discussions ?

Mthu on August 22, 2011 at 4:25 am

@@ Fizan: Gosh, another one whose head is stuck in the sand. Guardiola = humility = great manager? Hello. Guardiola is a two-faced hypocrite. To the media he appears to be all humility and respectful, but look at his team in the past 3 seasons: diving, faking, cheating to get their opponents sent off in BLATANT fashion in crucial games (read: Chelsea, Real Madrid, Inter, ad infinitum). Otherwise, Barca would not win anything. It’s pretty obvious – except to the Barca-loving media and people such as you – that Guardiola condones, which encourages and probably even discusses with his team the many ways to make their fakes and cheating real and how to get away with it.

Think about it: this has gone on for many seasons already, and Barca’s play-acting and pretenses are getting even worse. What has Guardiola done to minimise or elimiate them? Nothing. Zilch.

Someday, this will all come back to bite Barca when it matters most.

Ryan on August 23, 2011 at 1:25 pm

But I suppose assaulting another coach is fine?

Fizan on August 24, 2011 at 11:28 am

@ Mthu, my comments were directed at ZM, not you – needless to say your views are not relevant or important to my question / suggestion, as is obvious. But since you bit the hook even without any bait, let me say this. The point is not about Barca or Guardiola – I know apologists like you are likely to miss the necessary details, as I mentioned Sir Alex Ferguson in the same line). The point was that managers like SAF, Mourinho, Pep etc are all highly successful and has nothing to prove in terms of winning titles, and while none of them is perfect, Mourinho unashamedly behaves like an animal rather than a manager (whereas the other two can be considered to be classy gentlemen of the game). As such, why should anything good related to football take him as a reference point above others? If Mourinho was a mile ahead of the rest, then people can at least condone such a position. Point in case, even last year, other fellow coaches like Ottmar Hitzfeld severely criticised Mourinho’s antics after he bitterly lost to Barca. This year is the same. Irrespective of diving (which bizarrely only Barca players seem to do according to your twisted logic) we do not see the same reactions towards other managers, who seem to be highly respected by and in return respectful of other teams and managers. They are as gracious in defeat as humble they are when they win – diving or not you cannot deny that fact.

The truth is Mourinho apologists like you cannot handle the truth about Mourinho – that he is being surpassed by a novel newcomer like Pep who is not only winning everything with style, but also creating history with the brand and philosophy of football on show. And Mourinho’s primitive behaviour is like a jealous little child who is bitterly now second best!

Truth hurts sometime

Marck on August 21, 2011 at 9:52 pm

I have one question regarding the false 9. When he drops deep, the back 4 is left with only the front 2 to defend.. and both of them are going to cut in from the wings.. Is it not easy to defend this situation by 4 defenders ? I mean, the strker has dropped deep which means he is no longer a goal threat.. there is no AMC in barcelona’s case as they play 4-3-3.

So the only players you need to defend against are the 2 wingers or the inside forwards. Why does it become difficult to defend these 2 by 4 men at the back ? If they play a very high defensive line, they may get caught by the runs but if they play a deep defensive line and be compact, why is not sufficient to mark the front 2 ?

hutman on August 21, 2011 at 9:58 pm

Sound analysis. ZM I was thinking about formulating a theoretical XI that would defeat Guardiola’s system. It would be interesting if you made an article on it.

Andaran on August 22, 2011 at 10:25 am

Marck@ I think the issue of defending against the two wide strikers are not specifically linked to the two strikers in possesion of the ball. As always the problem is the triumvirate Messi-Xavi-Iniesta domenating possesion in the middle of the park. With only two CM´s to deal with them (Xabi and Khedira) playing a high line.

This matchup will eventually lead to plenty of opportunities for all three of them to penetrate the midfield leaving to pacey forwards running at the exposed defense. These throughballs are incredibly hard to defend against especially when delivered by such intelligent players.

In relation to that topic: Sergio Ramos seems to be a respected part of the defensive setup for Real Madrid. But did anyone notice how much he struggled with keeping a straight line at the back. Numerous times he failed to play the Barca forwards offside. Most notably Iniesta´s goal. In addition Ramos always seems so careless when he goes one on one with wide players. Often conceding silly freekicks or getting beaten.
Compared to Marcelo he brings very little offensively apart from a presence in the air at corner kicks.

marck on August 23, 2011 at 5:27 pm

“With only two CM´s to deal with them (Xabi and Khedira) playing a high line.”

Yes, I agree. But what if they play a deep defensive line so that even if Messi (the striker) drops deep and looks for through balls, there will be enough men in the back to counter the threat. If Messi drops deep, then it is left to Villa and Pedro to attack the through balls and score goals.

As you said, Messi-Xavi-Iniesta will be a 1 man advantage over Alonso and Khedira. But they will be relatively deep to be a goal scoring threat from their positions. The only way that they can be a threat is for one of them to rush forward to join the wingers or run through the middle. Even in that case, the 2 CBs should be enough to handle that (with the 2 FBs marking the wingers).

What I see as the major problem is to defend with a high line which Madrid did in the 5-0 defeat. They were much better when they corrected that and Barcelona did not score a goal with 11 men on the pitch.

Fizan on August 24, 2011 at 11:44 am

@ Marck: “They were much better when they corrected that and Barcelona did not score a goal with 11 men on the pitch”…

What can one think? another madrid propaganda machine (not “machinery” by the way) at work… ?

The reason why Real end up with 10 men on the pitch against Barca in most matches is exactly that whichever method used they cannot cope with Barca’s game and finally there is no choice but to commit aggressive / dangerous fouls to stop them from running riot.

Finally, you must be a bit behind the news. Barca have scored many goals against Madrid with 11 men on the pitch – most recently being the 2 legs of the Super Cup. Both away goals were scored with Madrid’s 11 men on the pitch, and in the return home leg, Barca’s all 3 goals were scored while Real had 11 men on the pitch. Did you by any chance see a different match? Of course, in the dying minute Marcelo’s karate kick on Cesc ensured that Mourinho and his apologists have their favourite excuse: “they only won because we had 10 men on the pitch”. Isn’t this always their “face-saving” strategy (in fact, the only consistent strategy Mourinho seems to have in his entire career whenever he faces defeat!)… Gotta be the laughing stock of the footballing world…!

Why has not anyone praise Mourinho’s tactical genius in this supercopa aside from Barcelona blog. Yes, Barcelona blog. I’m not a fan of either team but props to the blog for giving credit where it’s due.