Genocide and Jedi: why the Sith may be right in Old Republic

Talking with Daniel Erickson, the lead writer on Stars Wars: The Old Republic …

"The one thing you're never going to hear is 'make the bad guys less interesting.'"

I'm sitting in an out-of-the-way room of Lucasarts with Daniel Erickson, who keeps swinging back to one topic: why the people we've come to hate in the Star Wars universe act as they do. He's given this some thought; as the lead writer on Star Wars: The Old Republic, the upcoming Star Wars MMO, it's his job to help tell both sides of the story.

In our time together we discuss the extended universe, he makes the case for Grand Admiral Thrawn, and explains how the Jedi attempted genocide... and why the Sith may just be right.

While we're on the topic of the extended universe, he brings up the Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn. "Thrawn is a huge inspiration to me. The insight into the people dealing with the heroes," Erickson says. He puffs out his chest slightly, and changes his voice to speak like Thrawn. "Why are these people resisting order, and regulation. The galaxy was at war—it was a horrid place before. Is it really not enough to have order? You need everything? You're acting like children!" In other words: who needs freedom when there is order?

Another key note comes from the story of Exar Kun: "If you give brash young people almost god-like powers and ask them to behave... you're asking for problems. You're dealing with someone in their early twenties, who has never been able to be thwarted by anything, and you tell them not to play with these Sith artifacts—of course they're going to think they can handle it."

Erickson leans forward to make the point. "You're training children to deal with this power, and then demanding them to be incorruptible, and holding them to a standard that we don't even ask from any of our own societies. We looked at these issues and said, 'We could come up with an entire thematic run with this.'"

Why the Jedi were wrong

The most important aspect in telling this story, in the era of the Old Republic, was to dive deeper into the world of the Sith. "The thing that came up first was deciding how we were going to present the Sith and the Empire. And then really spending the time to make sure we were creating people and a culture, not two-dimensional villains. We had to start from the basics: why are they like this."

There were hints of what happened between the Jedi and the Sith in the formative years of the Force. While the Force itself always existed, learning how to use it, and how to train others to use it, took time. "The Force was developed on Tython, discovered by these pre-Jedi philosophers. They came into conflict about what it means and how it should be addressed." Erickson explains. This conflict split the people in two. "What the Jedi call the Dark Side, and what came to be known as the Dark Side, these people believed that life should be about emotion. They believed you should be unrestrained, that the galaxy wants us to love and lust and kill and make art and cry and dream..." he trails off. I imagine him sitting on a throne, lightsaber under his right hand. This conversation started as two Star Wars fans chatting about the expanded universe, but now I'm starting to understand the draw of the Sith.

What happened to these hedonistic followers of the Force? "They get chased out of the galaxy. In fact, in the lore, chased to the point where the Jedi believe they are dead. This is very close to genocide! The Jedi believe these people to be unredeemable."

He points out that we've only be presented one side of the story. If you grew up among these people, you have a very different story. "You know there is an Emperor, and that he saved your people's very existence, and there is a society out there larger than you, who deemed your people and your religion not worthy to exist."

The story is in good hands

We were given a hands-on with the game, but what Erickson said kept running through my head during GDC. Did he really just convince me that the Sith were the good guys in all this? Growing up, being taught to understand and explore our emotions and passions, and then being told this monk-like order had hunted my people to near extinction... it's easy to see the attraction to taking up your blaster or lightsaber against their order.

Kevin J. Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy really took this view and went with it. Luke's trek to the dark side during his battle with Vader and the Emperor was critical to his path of restoring balance to the force. Once he had experienced that, he had to regain his harmony and forge a new future for the Jedi which incorporated the allowance of emotion in the training and life of the Jedi without being caught up in hate, anger, and power. In this series, the balance that Vader/Luke brought to the force was this balance, which was beyond the comprehension of the old Jedi order. Whether this makes the genocidal Sith 'good' is far from certain. But it doesn't make them wrong, from a certain point of view. :P (I think I just met my geek quota for the rest of the month.)

That's great to know that this Old Republic MMO might actually be the second Star Wars game not being manichean at all (the first one being Knight of the Old Republic 2). From a gameplay perspective, that's a great move to ensure a balance between the two sides, after all, who really wants to be part of some kind of a chaotic bunch of psychopathic Force wielding morons?

Kevin J. Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy really took this view and went with it. Luke's trek to the dark side during his battle with Vader and the Emperor was critical to his path of restoring balance to the force. Once he had experienced that, he had to regain his harmony and forge a new future for the Jedi which incorporated the allowance of emotion in the training and life of the Jedi without being caught up in hate, anger, and power. In this series, the balance that Vader/Luke brought to the force was this balance, which was beyond the comprehension of the old Jedi order. Whether this makes the genocidal Sith 'good' is far from certain. But it doesn't make them wrong, from a certain point of view. :P (I think I just met my geek quota for the rest of the month.)

I think both the Sith and Old Republic Jedi were wrong. The Sith reveled in hate and destruction, while the intolerance of the Jedi rotted their souls and drove them many of them to evil.

Mark Havel wrote:

That's great to know that this Old Republic MMO might actually be the second Star Wars game not being manichean at all (the first one being Knight of the Old Republic 2). From a gameplay perspective, that's a great move to ensure a balance between the two sides, after all, who really wants to be part of some kind of a chaotic bunch of psychopathic Force wielding morons?

I think there are lots of immature gamers who'd find "a chaotic bunch of psychopathic Force wielding morons" very appealing.

It is as I have always said. I'm glad to see others - especially those in a position to flesh things out for SW have the same opinion. The same story played out in Babylon 5 and several other great works of fiction. Also in many ways it plays out between men and women - think about it....

Part of the problem with starting this argument in the series now is it would have been better if in the movies the Sith did not refer to it as the dark side. Most anybody can justify a lot to themselves and try to others around them. However most anyone rational is not going to refer to themselves or actions as evil, but it does have some support in several of the encounters between them when they try to make arguments against the jedi to convert followers.

Peace is a lie; there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. —The Sith Code

There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no chaos, there is harmony. There is no death, there is the Force. —The Jedi Code

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

I mostly play games for their stories, I grew weary of bloodshed and shooters a long time ago, hence the fact I am primarily an RPG gamer. The more I hear about The Old Republic, the more desirable playing it sounds. With Bioware's expertise in fleshing out the universe and making both sides have their own good and bad sides, I can see a wonderful balance coming in to play, completely above and beyond the simple gameplay. This game could very well be an experience, not just a game.

That said, I've already lost many things due to previous World of Warcraft exposure, my social life was one of them, a lot of money and time also. MMO's are dangerous ground and I must tread warily this time.

The Jedi never seemed to have a particularly coherent belief system. They teach compassion and benevolence, yet love is forbidden. They enforce justice and fight against evil, yet it seems they never learned to distinguish true righteous anger from hatred and malice. The result is a bunch of people who are forbidden to love and therefore denied the opportunity to ever practice the deepest form of self-sacrifice and compassion; and who are expected to fight evil but can never draw strength from even justified anger at the evil they are fighting. Not to mention a bunch of young men completely deprived of any legitimate sexual outlet. Kind of like Catholic priests who are forbidden to marry and then we're surprised when they turn to less savory types of sexual behavior as a result. I think the Apostle Paul said it best, "it's better for a man to marry than to burn with lust." I bet if the Jedi had just allowed Anakin to marry Padme in the beginning the whole Darth Vader thing would never have happened.

The Jedi also remind me of Vulcans in Star Trek. They seek to suppress all passion and strong emotions, while the Sith revel in them and are totally controlled by them. But at least the Sith philosophy is consistent. The Jedi sit there pretending it is actually possible to suppress all passion and then wonder why the dark side suddenly starts seeming so attractive.

The Jedi never seemed to have a particularly coherent belief system. They teach compassion and benevolence, yet love is forbidden. They enforce justice and fight against evil, yet it seems they never learned to distinguish true righteous anger from hatred and malice. The result is a bunch of people who are forbidden to love and therefore denied the opportunity to ever practice the deepest form of self-sacrifice and compassion; and who are expected to fight evil but can never draw strength from even justified anger at the evil they are fighting. Not to mention a bunch of young men completely deprived of any legitimate sexual outlet. Kind of like Catholic priests who are forbidden to marry and then we're surprised when they turn to less savory types of sexual behavior as a result. I think the Apostle Paul said it best, "it's better for a man to marry than to burn with lust." I bet if the Jedi had just allowed Anakin to marry Padme in the beginning the whole Darth Vader thing would never have happened.

The Jedi also remind me of Vulcans in Star Trek. They seek to suppress all passion and strong emotions, while the Sith revel in them and are totally controlled by them. But at least the Sith philosophy is consistent. The Jedi sit there pretending it is actually possible to suppress all passion and then wonder why the dark side suddenly starts seeming so attractive.

consider that thanks to the force, emotions give real power. And power can be very seductive.

Interesting, but are we willing to pay $x per month to have a story unfold over a long enough period of time such that $x * y months - $z development costs = $a bajillion profit dollars to its parent companies?

Interesting angle, but look at what the Sith are and espouse. Look at the rule of two as well. The Sith use the dark side which is in essence a destructive force in the end. The Jedi follow the light side, which while mostly benevolent leads to stagnation. I think both sides fell into the extreme and this lead to their mutual downfall over time.

KOTOR2 did have some interesting ideas. In the end perhaps what the Jedi and the Sith both require is balance. Passion without Reason is anarchy. Reason without Passion is stagnation. Neither is optimal.

KOTOR2 did have some interesting ideas. In the end perhaps what the Jedi and the Sith both require is balance. Passion without Reason is anarchy. Reason without Passion is stagnation. Neither is optimal.

KOTOR2 did have some interesting ideas. In the end perhaps what the Jedi and the Sith both require is balance. Passion without Reason is anarchy. Reason without Passion is stagnation. Neither is optimal.

let the truth of love be lightedlet the love of truth stand clearSensibilityArmed with sense and libertyWith the heart and mind unitedIn a single, perfect, sphere...

It always seemed fairly easy for me to reverse the situation and see the Jedi as evil. You just have to view the SW series as history told from a Jedi perspective, and imagine what the Sith would have to say about an order that preaches abstinence from emotion and indeed actively seems to distance itself from what it means to be human.

Both orders seem to have engaged in genocide at various times, for "the good of the galaxy", and neither philosophy seems to be particularly attractive when taken to extreme.

In fact, Lucas may have blundered into a more nuanced universe than he originally intended, but he DID have the balance of the force as a central premise in the first trilogy. Maybe the ideology of the two sides of the force wasn't fully formed in his head, but the conclusion he came to seems to support a more dualistic view of the force.

I'm interested in seeing where they go with this, but I'm not particularly interested in a MMORPG unfortunately.