Untyped Bonuses: now only stack from different sources and "source" is clarified - the same name on the source means no stacking. (This nerfs a WHOLE SHITLOAD of stuff. In a good way!) Damage types and keywords: Finally officially clarified! Changing damage type changes keywords. Adding damage adds keywords. Removing damage removes keywords.

AV: Cunning: Nerfed! First save only! Staff Of Ruin: Requires that you use THE STAFF to make the attack! No more off-handing Staves Of Ruin, plural. Boots Of Eagerness: Minor action, grants a Move, not Free grants a move (that could be converted to Minor). Still awesome! Salve Of Power: Nerfed! Restores Encounter powers, not Dailies. No level limit! Solitaires: All Daily now, not Encounter! And the AP-granting one now limits you to 1 AP/Encounter. Potion Of Clarity: Nerfed! It's got a maximum level on the power it can effect, now, to stop you from stocking up on 50GP ones and rerolling your biggest powers with them.

PHB2: EXPERTISE CHANGE! All "Expertise" Feats now provide Feat Bonuses. Most situational bonuses to hit from non-Expertise Feats are now untyped, not Feat!

AV2: Ankhmon's Bracers: Nerfed! No more +1d10 damage and regain 1d10HP every time you hit with combat advantage, Mr Sorceror Man. Diamond Cincture now costs Surges. Remember how I said it was gonna get nerfed? Yeah. It did.

Divine Power: Pacifist Healer made *stronger*, because now it requires a hit or miss and damage - ongoing/autodamage no longer included!

The BIGGEST changes are Expertise and and the Damage Types/Keywords changes.

Untyped bonus stacking is a very close second, along with FINALLY fixing Orb/Cunning.

I think the nastiest save-penalty combo I can think of now is:

Wizard with Spell Focus and whatever that Invoker PP is, enough temporary penalties to ensure failing the first Save, and a Warlock Doomsayer standing next to him. -4 permanently, with "roll twice and take the worse"

The BIGGEST changes are Expertise and and the Damage Types/Keywords changes.

Untyped bonus stacking is a very close second, along with FINALLY fixing Orb/Cunning.

I think the nastiest save-penalty combo I can think of now is:

Wizard with Spell Focus and whatever that Invoker PP is, enough temporary penalties to ensure failing the first Save, and a Warlock Doomsayer standing next to him. -4 permanently, with "roll twice and take the worse"

Im very glad with the untyped bonus fix, as I believe it was seriously a big problem especially at the higher levels. And probably another reason is probably because I was one of the few advocates of them not stacking in a thread a few months ago in which many people disagreed with said notion.

All in all, the updates seem to be satisfactory, granted I'm a bit unsure about the change to solitaires from AV.

I'm glad they made Hellfire Blood useful. I wish that all those other themed damage feats got fixed so they'd be more attractive; right now it's better to take weapon focus with your staff rather than astral fire et. al. (which are not only situational but have some inconvenient prereqs).

First, how exactly does the "Bonus and Penalties" errata affect things? Is it saying that (A.) untyped bonuses from the same game element (power, feat, class feature) do not stack with each other? Or is it merely saying that (B.) untyped bonuses from the same single game element (so Feat A and Feat B) do not stack with each other?

So if I have Feat A that gives +1 attack, and Feat B that gives +1 attack (both untyped)... do they still stack?

-----

Second, what feats have been made "obsolete (and we're not going to change that!)" by the Expertise changes? Anyone have a full list? EDIT: Looking at it, it... doesn't look as bad as it sounds.

Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.
No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).
(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

First, how exactly does the "Bonus and Penalties" errata affect things? Is it saying that (A.) untyped bonuses from the same game element (power, feat, class feature) do not stack with each other? Or is it merely saying that (B.) untyped bonuses from the same single game element (so Feat A and Feat B) do not stack with each other?

So if I have Feat A that gives +1 attack, and Feat B that gives +1 attack (both untyped)... do they still stack?

-----

Second, what feats have been made "obsolete (and we're not going to change that!)" by the Expertise changes? Anyone have a full list?

Feat A with Feat A = does not stack. (Ex. echoes of thunder can't stack with itself)Feat A with Feat B = Does stack. (Ex. Echoes of Thunder and Power Attack's unnamed bonus to damage rolls does stack)

And as a note, If Feat A says it stacks or is cumulative with itself, then it stacks. (Ex. Escalating Assault from frpg p133)

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

First, how exactly does the "Bonus and Penalties" errata affect things? Is it saying that (A.) untyped bonuses from the same game element (power, feat, class feature) do not stack with each other? Or is it merely saying that (B.) untyped bonuses from the same single game element (so Feat A and Feat B) do not stack with each other?

So if I have Feat A that gives +1 attack, and Feat B that gives +1 attack (both untyped)... do they still stack?

Two Feats with different names that give Untyped bonuses stack.

The same Feat giving an untyped bonus multiple times does NOT stack - so, Echoes Of Thunder doesn't stack with itself any more. As well, the "source" has been clarified to be the Feat or Item itself, not the power it is used with.

So, a Cloak Of Translocation no longer gives +2 to defenses *per teleportation you use*, even though your feycharging Swordmage uses at least three different Teleportation powers every round.

Second, what feats have been made "obsolete (and we're not going to change that!)" by the Expertise changes? Anyone have a full list?

Not sure. There are 75 Feats in the Compendium that have the words "Feat Bonus To Hit", but that includes a metric ton of Feats that have a "Feat Bonus to Whatever" and also the word "Hit" or "Hit points".

I suspect all situational to-hit bonuses will become untyped, and all "always on" Feat bonuses like the gnome illusionist Feat will stay Feat bonuses because they also give another bonus effect.

Wow, the damage type-keyword connection has opened up a lot of new builds, even if there's less abusive stuff to do with keywords now.

The last question remaining is how things like Shocking Flame work. Is adding +2 fire damage considered changing the damage type of the power, and thus adding the keyword? Is a crit with a Flaming Weapon that doesn't currently have its at-will power activated a fire attack? Perhaps 'extra damage' won't be counted as something that changes/adds keywords.

Untyped Bonuses: now only stack from different sources and "source" is clarified - the same name on the source means no stacking. (This nerfs a WHOLE SHITLOAD of stuff. In a good way!) Damage types and keywords: Finally officially clarified! Changing damage type changes keywords. Adding damage adds keywords. Removing damage removes keywords.

AV: Cunning: Nerfed! First save only! Staff Of Ruin: Requires that you use THE STAFF to make the attack! No more off-handing Staves Of Ruin, plural. Boots Of Eagerness: Minor action, grants a Move, not Free grants a move (that could be converted to Minor). Still awesome! Salve Of Power: Nerfed! Restores Encounter powers, not Dailies. No level limit! Solitaires: All Daily now, not Encounter! And the AP-granting one now limits you to 1 AP/Encounter. Potion Of Clarity: Nerfed! It's got a maximum level on the power it can effect, now, to stop you from stocking up on 50GP ones and rerolling your biggest powers with them.

PHB2: EXPERTISE CHANGE! All "Expertise" Feats now provide Feat Bonuses. Most situational bonuses to hit from non-Expertise Feats are now untyped, not Feat!

AV2: Ankhmon's Bracers: Nerfed! No more +1d10 damage and regain 1d10HP every time you hit with combat advantage, Mr Sorceror Man. Diamond Cincture now costs Surges. Remember how I said it was gonna get nerfed? Yeah. It did.

Divine Power: Pacifist Healer made *stronger*, because now it requires a hit or miss and damage - ongoing/autodamage no longer included!

I see they attempted to address the "Weapon as an Implement vs Implement as a Weapon" debate. I say attempted, as they left some questions STILL wide open.

For instance......Does a Staff being weilded as a Double "weapon" qualify for Dual "implement" spellcaster???

The wait continues....

Otherwise decent update

I think we'll have to wait and see what PHB3 brings to determine the extent of the weaplement changes. As it is now, there are only a handful of weapons that specifically use the "with a weapon attack" or "with a weapon power" language. Does cunning weapon work with implement powers? What about bloodiron? They mention "weapons" but not "weapon powers" or "weapon attacks." Maybe the May update will make use of the core rules change.

FTFA:"If the damage types in a power change, the power both loses the keywords for any damage types that are removed and gains the keywords for any damage types that are added"

So, yes. When you add fire damage and there was no fire damage before, the damage types in the power have changed. Since they've changed, you add and remove the appropriate keywords.

My question is really, "Does adding extra damage of a type change the damage type of the power?" I believe that is unclear.

... how is it unclear?

By adding a new damage type, you are changing the types of damage in a power. "Fire damage and cold damage" is not the same as "fire damage". "Acid damage and psychic damage" is not the same as "acid damage".

"If the damage types in a power change", blah blah bah.

On what planet does adding something new not constitute a change from the original?

FTFA:"If the damage types in a power change, the power both loses the keywords for any damage types that are removed and gains the keywords for any damage types that are added"

So, yes. When you add fire damage and there was no fire damage before, the damage types in the power have changed. Since they've changed, you add and remove the appropriate keywords.

My question is really, "Does adding extra damage of a type change the damage type of the power?" I believe that is unclear.

... how is it unclear?

By adding a new damage type, you are changing the types of damage in a power. "Fire damage and cold damage" is not the same as "fire damage". "Acid damage and psychic damage" is not the same as "acid damage".

"If the damage types in a power change", blah blah bah.

On what planet does adding something new not constitute a change from the original?

What damage type does the power deal? It's not dealing lightning damage; it's still dealing untyped damage. The damage that the power deals has not changed. The extra 2 lightning damage is being tacked on at the end. It doesn't retroactively change all the power's damage to lightning.

The example given in the update refers to powers that change or add to the damage type of a power. Shocking Flame adds a few points of damage, not a whole damage type to the power, hence my hesitancy to assume that it too will completely change the keywords of a power.

BTW, on Omicron Persei 7 adding something new does not constitute a change from the original.

It's dealing Untyped damage and it is ALSO dealing fire or lightning damage.

The damage that the power deals has not changed.

Yes, it has. Previously, it did 1W+STR untyped damage. Now it deals 1W+STR+2 Fire damage.

The extra 2 lightning damage is being tacked on at the end. It doesn't retroactively change all the power's damage to lightning.

And?

Previously, the power did untyped damage.Now it does untyped and fire damage, or untyped and lightning damage.

The damage types of the power have changed, because they are different. Altered. Not the same.

The example given in the update refers to powers that change or add to the damage type of a power.

True, but it is an EXAMPLE.

There are many examples that do not exhaustively describe all possible permutations of a rule. Right there, the example doesn't even MENTION poison damage, and yet the rule has a specific exception for Poison - OMG THIS MAKES NO SENSE. Or, maybe, wacky thought, the example is JUST AN EXAMPLE and it was picked because it shows both adding a damage type and removing a damage type in a single step.

Shocking Flame adds a few points of damage, not a whole damage type to the power, hence my hesitancy to assume that it too will completely change the keywords of a power.

Shocking Flame causes the power to deal Fire or Lightning damage in addition to it's normal damage types.

This is a change to the types of damage dealt by the power.

Since the types of damage dealt by the power have changed, the keywords on the power have changed to match.

It's been a long time coming and is entirely justified, but still - my Eladrin fighter is going to miss his cheesy "drag-the-controller-across-the-entire-room" grasping Tratnyr.

I quite liked the grasping thing the way it used to be, since magical thrown weapons magically return to your hand. The only reason I see for it needing to be changed was a ruleswise one, and tbh I don't think that ranged grasping was so overpowered to begin with, especially when you compare it to some of the things which they left out for this update.

Let's say your firesoul genasi with shocking flame hits a tiefling (resist fire:10) with a melee basic attack. Your unmodified MBA does 1d8+5 damage untyped damage. Let's say you roll a 3, for a total of 8 untyped damage. When you add the shocking flame damage (+2 fire), how much damage does the Tiefling take? If shocking flame turns your whole attack in to a fire attack -- which is what I believe you're advocating -- you've just inflicted zero damage. If shocking flame instead just tacks on a 2-point fire damage packet, you've still inflicted eight damage.

I believe that things that change(replace) the keywords of a power spell it out -- a Flaming Weapon's at-will power, for example, states that ALL damage dealt by the weapon is fire damage. Shocking Flame doesn't talk about a change -- it just adds a little damage packet. In the example above, it's the difference between 1d8+5+2(fire) and (1d8+7)fire.