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Well here are some results for the Vargas Stage III upgrade that has caused the N54 forum section to basically be engaged in chaos for the past few months. From accusations of vaporware, to comparison to single turbo upgrades, to countless other arguments the day has come and the Stage III Vargas Turbo upgrade dyno'd on 91 octane with no meth 572 horsepower to the rear wheels. This is with a Cobb flash tuned by BimmerBoost vendor Pro-Tuning Freaks.

Impressive? Yep, sure is and this seems to also be a 91 octane pump gas only world record for the N54. Now keep in mind this is just the beginning. What will it do with meth? What will do on E85? What will it do with race gas and big boost? What about different turbos? Sky appears to be the limit but for now this kind of performance on pump gas sure is a big boost (hah, get it?) to the N54 scene.

Congratulations to all involved, Vargas Turbo Tech, Pro-Tuning Freaks, Cobb, and just the N54 community as well. The impossible just became possible. Pictures, video, and dynograph below.

PS. On the whole e90post bull$#@! fest. The twins are using vacuum based wastegates and thus the spool up is going to be in part a function of whatever was programmed by the tuner. With a JB4 ISO for example we'd hold the wastegates at 100% duty cycle by default during spool but that may or may not be how D has their flash programmed currently.

I actually went over there for once today, and to my dismay missed the fun.

What you said there is incredibly true. Turbo spool is effected by not only by exhaust "airmass" but also volume, pressure and velocity, all very related to fuel, timing, afr, egt, head flow, scavenging, etc etc. If someone doesn't understand that they missed some key facts in engineering school.

More fun shiv started a new thread now....LOLSingle vs. Twin Turbo Spool-up ComparisonHi guys,
First of all, I'd like to congradulate Vargas Turbos for their work on the Stg3 kit. I know how much time and effort it takes to do something like that. That being said, I do want to clear up a little bit of misinformation regarding thispost that Tony made regarding boost response difference between our single turbo set-up and their twin GT turbo set-up. The said that their big twins offer "identical" low end toque up to 4250rpm. But in the graph he posted, he compared a 6MT to a 6AT and a 5th gear run to a 4th gear run. With both variables having a big effect on low end torque when tested on an inertial dynamometer (Dynojet). While we have plenty of customer single turbo 6MTs dyno results, we rarely dyno the cars (with stock final drives) in 5th gear since the Dynojet we use is only rated up to 155mph. However, I did find one run file from Melissa's 62mm single turbo car that was tested in 5th gear just to illustrate the positive effects it has on turbo spool-up. Her original dyno thread can be found here.

I rescaled both results (Vargas Stg3 Twins and Melissa's 62mm Single) to be similar and superimposed them below to illustrate low end torque/spool up differences when gear and transmission are kept equal. Please note that this is only a comparison for spool-up, NOT power since Melissa's car was tested @ 22-23psi on E85+meth while the Vargas Stg3 car was tested @ 24-25psi on 91oct. Since fuel/tune has little to no effect on turbo spool-up, that is all we are comparing so please ignore the results from 4250rpm and up:

Green is VFF 62mm Single. Red/Blue is Vargas Stg3.

At this time, this is as apples/apples as we can get. Keep in mind that we are comparing the results taken from two different dynos on two different days. I personally did not want to compare the two kits at this time since Vargas is still early in the tuning process. But I felt I had to clear up a little bit of unintentional misinformation.

These are exciting times for the n54 and we should all be happy that there are many options to fit individual needs.

Cheers,
shiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by biz77A highly oxygenated fuel, like E85, most certainly has an effect on boost onset.

Boost response/spool-up between our single turbo cars running e85 and gasoline is virtually identical. I can provide dyno graphs comparing Melissa's 4th gear results to others running gasoline if people want to see them. The main advantage afforded by running E85 is how much advance you can run once peak cylinder pressure is achieved. This is not very relevant during spool-up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beemw335It should be pointed out that you've had a year to perfect your kit, they've only had theirs out for a week.
Only time will tell which one is the better "daily driver" kit.

No doubt. Once again, Tony made this comparison first. I'm merely making the same comparison using more valid and comparable data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AltecBX
Why do you think they're TT drops at 4750-5k and yours stays put?

That's a question best left to him. I'm just comparing spool-up.

And to everyone else, please do not turn this into a pissing match. The twins are the Vargas Stg3 car are sized to make 850+whp. So it's understandable that they will not spool-up as quickly as a single sized to only make 700whp.

And to everyone else, please do not turn this into a pissing match. The twins are the Vargas Stg3 car are sized to make 850+whp. So it's understandable that they will not spool-up as quickly as a single sized to only make 700whp.

Shiv

I found this interesting. At least he realizes his turbo cant compete on the top end unless he slaps on a bigger snail.

How much boost can these turbos take? If your running 24-25psi already on 91 is there still plenty of head room once you start testing with e85/meth? I know timing was keep low during the 91 tune, just curious how much more you can crank these baby's up to.

These turbos are still in their efficiency range at 30 PSI. As far as the 91 tune the guys at PTF can answer that. My understanding is, they chose a lot of boost and basically no timing at all to get the great numbers on 91. Timing is usually what hurts motors not boost. So now with the ultra conservative low timing maps in place for high numbers on low octane. We just start adding timing and boost for the higher fuels. Obviously laymans terms and the tuners can elaborate more on the subject. I will say for one of the last runs for fun we turned on the meth, did not touch the map, I lifted early and we still made 602 doing nothing else. But there is so much more there, we just left it for another day.

PS. On the whole e90post bull$#@! fest. The twins are using vacuum based wastegates and thus the spool up is going to be in part a function of whatever was programmed by the tuner. With a JB4 ISO for example we'd hold the wastegates at 100% duty cycle by default during spool but that may or may not be how D has their flash programmed currently.

Terry, you are more correct then you know on these vacuum gates. I will leave it for D to really get into, but when we started tuning. The DME was expecting stock spool and would fight us tooth and nail to open the gates EARLY. Thus dropping boost. D wrangled it into place and the spool became brilliant. I made mention on the other site, that since we are using ultra low timing and very conservative tune to keep things safe on the 91 map, we could only work on spool so much. It was denied over there that tuning can help spool by leaps and bounds. Bottom line is, we are not near done with tuning for spool. We were seeing what we could get on 91 and honestly, we feel there is still more left in it on that fuel. I apologize for getting into the banter over there though. To many of your dismay I actually do respect Shiv and what he has done for the platform. He has moved it along quite a bit.

First off these are GREAT numbers. They are very nice and there is obviously ALOT of room to grow from here. As many of us know who come from the platforms outside this one these types of setups finally put us up where we belong... closer to being alongside everyone else.

As for this comment, not sure what you mean. We can send shuttles to space, we can cure terminal illness in medicine, yet RB said we can not bolt other than factory framed turbos to an N54? Odd. I think what you are confusing is what was said as simply not worth it (to me), therefore I could not endorse them personally. As an installer, mechanic, designer, and a front liner so to speak; my thoughts were that a setup like this it is like mashing 100lbs of potatoes into a 50lb sack. Can it be done? Sure. Is there a solution that could offer the same or similar performance with better fitment, a cleaner look, for less cost? Absolutely. There are pros and cons to everything, and to each their own how they wish to weigh each factor. Way back when (before Tony even presented himself) we had discussions on doing this and had discovered that this line of Garrets were very short turbos, which definitely helped mitigate some of the potato mashing. I give Tony mad props as he did a MAGNIFICENT job with this project. I do believe he did the best that can be done with the design and in my eyes once he gets a good induction on these turbos for the production round it will be a very complete and a very elegant kit which with further tuning will be an amazing street car.

Back on topic, I sincerely send out congrats to Vargas, and looking forward to further advancements. Without setups like this the platform would definitely remain stagnant as we have known it for years now, so this is an excellent opportunity for more pioneers to jump in there and figure out how to push things along even further much like those running ST kits. With that all respects are given.

Rob

RB, I appreciate the kind words. We worked long and hard on this project. Put a lot of nights and weekends into it, and thats before the tuning. For the first dyno day we are beyond pleased and know there is a lot left in there. Thanks again

Geez Shiv is in full whine mode trying to step on Vargas's results thread on the other site. He would have been better served just keeping is mouth shut. Really like the part about dumping the fuel tanks & verifying a 91 octane fill. Isn't there are story floating around about someone getting caught with a hidden fuel bladder?

Shiv shows his true colors again...I figured for awhile it was just how he was with Terry but he's just a grade A douche with anyone that threatens his bread and butter.

Tony, once you've test fitted this on a 335xi you can sign me up for a set of stage 3s. I've been lusting after a 4 door, AWD car that can hit 130mph traps, even if I do have to soft launch it because of the drivetrain

Terry, you are more correct then you know on these vacuum gates. I will leave it for D to really get into, but when we started tuning. The DME was expecting stock spool and would fight us tooth and nail to open the gates EARLY. Thus dropping boost. D wrangled it into place and the spool became brilliant. I made mention on the other site, that since we are using ultra low timing and very conservative tune to keep things safe on the 91 map, we could only work on spool so much. It was denied over there that tuning can help spool by leaps and bounds. Bottom line is, we are not near done with tuning for spool. We were seeing what we could get on 91 and honestly, we feel there is still more left in it on that fuel. I apologize for getting into the banter over there though. To many of your dismay I actually do respect Shiv and what he has done for the platform. He has moved it along quite a bit.

Yes, that is part of the reason I wanted you guys to start with isolated boost control. Rather than spending 90% of the time on boost you spend only 10% of the time on boost and the rest on fine tuning. But seems like D has a handle on it now so take it as far as you can. And once I get a set going I'll work my magic on this end with the JB4. I asked Cobb a few weeks ago to redo our account so any "maps" we make can be opened by anyone (they have it set to lock by default) and I'll have no issues posting whatever I come up with in case the flash only guys can find some of it useful.

Yes, that is part of the reason I wanted you guys to start with isolated boost control. Rather than spending 90% of the time on boost you spend only 10% of the time on boost and the rest on fine tuning. But seems like D has a handle on it now so take it as far as you can. And once I get a set going I'll work my magic on this end. I've asked Cobb to redo our account so any "maps" we make can be opened by anyone (they have it set to lock by default) and I'll have no issues posting whatever I come up with in case the flash only guys can find some of it useful.

Thats awesome man, we appreciate it. I am gonna get you a kit as soon as I can, you are number 2. We did it this way because we really wanted to see how a set of aftermarket turbos with vacuum gates would do with full boost control by the DME and while a pain at first. Now that D got it figured out. Give the DME a couple runs to adapt after making a change and literally in a very sensitive datalog grapher the boost ramps straight up and looks like this to redline_________________________
Its pretty amazing how well it can hold the boost once we got it there.

Sure for glory runs it's OK. But they are limited by fuel currently so I think they need to address that before considering raising boost higher. At the very least with more octane they could run more advance which should dramatically improve things. I have not seen the current curves posted, no timing data, no solid afr data, no EGT data, etc. They may be keeping much of the data under wraps as its all a work in progress which I understand. But ultimately without all the data in my fingertips it's hard to suggest where they go next.

Agreed. They may be limited on fuel, but there should be substantial room to ramp up the timing and make quite a bit more. Even with this being the limit for fuel, it is a very high limit. How many cars can you name with THIS kind of fuel ceiling with just a simple fuel pump upgrade; with regards to the stock power output? Not many.

Geez Shiv is in full whine mode trying to step on Vargas's results thread on the other site. He would have been better served just keeping is mouth shut. Really like the part about dumping the fuel tanks & verifying a 91 octane fill. Isn't there are story floating around about someone getting caught with a hidden fuel bladder?

These turbos are still in their efficiency range at 30 PSI. As far as the 91 tune the guys at PTF can answer that. My understanding is, they chose a lot of boost and basically no timing at all to get the great numbers on 91. Timing is usually what hurts motors not boost. So now with the ultra conservative low timing maps in place for high numbers on low octane. We just start adding timing and boost for the higher fuels. Obviously laymans terms and the tuners can elaborate more on the subject. I will say for one of the last runs for fun we turned on the meth, did not touch the map, I lifted early and we still made 602 doing nothing else. But there is so much more there, we just left it for another day.

Glad my meth kit is being put too good use! That's crazy by just turning meth on and not making any changes to the map you were able to pick up 30hp AND you let off early. Hopefully when Jake comes out in 3 weeks I'll be able to stop by the dyno

Terry, you are more correct then you know on these vacuum gates. I will leave it for D to really get into, but when we started tuning. The DME was expecting stock spool and would fight us tooth and nail to open the gates EARLY. Thus dropping boost. D wrangled it into place and the spool became brilliant. I made mention on the other site, that since we are using ultra low timing and very conservative tune to keep things safe on the 91 map, we could only work on spool so much. It was denied over there that tuning can help spool by leaps and bounds. Bottom line is, we are not near done with tuning for spool. We were seeing what we could get on 91 and honestly, we feel there is still more left in it on that fuel. I apologize for getting into the banter over there though. To many of your dismay I actually do respect Shiv and what he has done for the platform. He has moved it along quite a bit.

it's logical that tuning can?

more low down timing = bigger bang = better spool

hurrdurr to those who say otherwise?

ED: i think shiv could be a little scared of the pricing on these turbos for similar spool and better potential power