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Celesteela is Life

Introduced in Generation V, Middle Cup is a metagame that follows one simple premise: only middle evolutions are allowed (has both a pre-evolution and an evolution). With Generation VII finally released and the moderate interest shown in Generation VI, I've revamped the thread to develop and maintain interest in Smogon MC throughout Generation VII. In this format, all Pokemon are set to Level 50 and are only allowed to be used if they have both pre-evolutions and can evolve.

Generation VII brought about few changes from Generation VI, but notably brought a nerf to Fletchinder (sorta) and introduced a small group of new Pokemon, moves, and items. Outside of the limited changes though, the metagame itself appears to still revolve around offensive playstyles. Upon the onset of this new generation, Eviolite will be banned, as there exists too much potential for defensive threats like Chansey, Porygon2, or Rhydon to get out of hand. Light Ball will be banned because it makes Pikachu impossible to switch in on. However, once the metagame has stabilized, I'm not opposed to testing Eviolite (at the cost of Chansey and potentially other Pokemon) in order to balance the metagame.

SUMO Middle Cup will not be enforcing the Alolan region lock - all middle evolutions are available.

To begin this generation, I'll be busy up until the new year. Until my activity stabilizes, I'll be renaming wishes as my co-leader, and Threw as a fill-in until my return (Dec 17th at the earliest). Threw was a staple user in ORAS MC that showed considerable interest while assisting in policy decisions and the analysis project, so he'll make an excellent fit in a temporary situation.

The trio of myself, wishes, and Threw will make up the initial tiering council for Generation VII. Our aim is simple - keep the offensive metagame as playable as possible by eliminating threats that prove to be too powerful / effective in the current metagame. Public opinion is always taken into consideration when we make these discussions, and we encourage discussion of potential suspects in this thread (please provide any and all relevant damage calculations and replays when discussing a suspect).

Banlist

The following items are banned in SUMO Middle Cup: Eviolite, Light Ball

Dragon Dance Fraxure is an insanely powerful and deadly sweeper, with stupidly powerful Attack and an okay speed tier to boot. Dragonium Z turns Outrage into a 190 BP STAB nuke that has no drawbacks, and at +1 can dent even the most sturdy of resists (aka stuff like Doublade takes almost half from it, which is really crazy). Fraxure pairs well with SpikeStack to help wear down it's checks, so Whirlipede was a natural fit, acting as a reliable Spikes setter and suicide lead thanks to it's ability Speed Boost. Sash Kadabra fills many important roles for this team, being a catch-all answer to dangerous boosted sweepers and Scarfers such as opposing DD Fraxures and Combusken, while also benefitting from SpikeStack itself to be a very good late-game cleaner with it's great power and super-high speed. Choice Scarf Monferno adds a check to Grass-types and Dark-types while also being a great revenge killer and adding speed control to the team. I needed a Stealth Rock user at that point, and I lacked any Flying resists or an Electric immunity, which made SR Rhydon a great fit for this team, being a reliable SR setter and a good tank in general while also acting as a wallbreaker to take down bulkier threats such as Porygon2 and Chansey for the other sweepers/cleaners on the team. Rock Blast is mainly for breaking through Kadabra's Sash and KOing it if you get enough hits. Agility Seadra was looking like a huge threat to the team, as at +2 Seadra outspeeds Scarf Ferno, making my only way of revenging it Kadabra. I needed an answer to it and other Water-types in general, so I decided to add Yache Berry Servine, who can take an Ice Beam from Seadra and KO in return, while also being a reliable answer to other Water-types and Ground-types and adding yet another wallbreaker and potential cleaner to the team. Servine also possesses some nice utility in Glare, crippling faster opponents on switch-in for the slower team members to profit from. This team overall fits very well with the offensive nature of Middle Cup, based around wallbreaking and breaking through checks for another team member to clean through, assisted by the Spike Stacking. Overall, I think this team is quite consistent and a good way for new players to get accustomed to HO-style teams in MC.

Scarf Gabite is a really good cleaner and the second fastest mon to make use of Scarf (only outsped by Frogadier.) Shuca Berry Metang helps get Stealth Rock up and can even lure in some threats such as opposing Gabites for Trumbeak and Electabuzz. Prinplup is one of the few defoggers the meta has to offer while serving as a decent check to the Ice and Ground-types like Piloswine that might threaten the team. Electabuzz gives the team some much needed speed while also providing an important Magneton check. Trumbeak rides off of Electabuzz's pivoting ability and Metang's ability to lure some of Trumbeak's checks while also giving the team another check to Servine and Gloom. You can try out Flame Charge > Knock Off or U-turn if you want Trumbeak to function as more of a set-up sweeper. With Flame Charge, Firium Z can also be used for a stronger hit on Steel-types; this is preferred on sets without Knock Off. Finally Kadabra can help to get you out of a pinch against threatening setup sweepers or Scarfers. You might want to try Calm Mind > Dazzling Gleam if you feel like the team needs a set up sweeper.

I choose Z TR P2 to start off with because having near 100 accurate thunders and blizzards are really strong (especially if you manage to get the SpAtk boost from download) Gurdurr was added as the team's primary wallbreaker and is overall very strong with a Guts Boost. I added Graveler-A mainly due to it being one of the slowest SR user that had decent offensive presense. You can also use Rhydon in this slot for EdgeQuake coverage and to be slightly less weak to Earthquake, but it doesn't matter too much. Dusclops serves as the team's defensive TR setter that could double as a defensive fighting check and a general physical attacking check in general. Hex > Seismic Toss is an option to abuse spreading Wisps, but lacks the consistent damage output that SToss has. Duosion was one of the strongest self TR setters, and with a combination of LO + Magic Guard it could still have a lot of power without being chipped down. Marill was added as a strong wallbreaker that could check fire types, while also just hitting incredibly hard with the Choice Band + Huge Power combo.

Glad to see this thread again. The new generation wasn't too great in terms of new additions. But what is really cool is Z-Moves. Z-Moves have so much offensive presence as well as a ton of utility. Moves like Z-Memento allow you to be more careless with your late game sweeper while the attacking moves can make for great lure sets allowing certain mons to muscle past their conventional checks. However, one Z-Move in particular is scaring me this Gen, Z-Conversion. We all know how amazing P2 was defensively and offensively last gen. Now P2 is even more threatening. Not only can it get a +1 boost in all its stats allowing it to hit 184 Speed outspeeding all of the unboosted meta. At +1 offensive P2 has a solid 160/165/172 bulk as well as having an astounding 235 SpAtk. If you get the download boost in your favor that SpAtk hits 314.

EDIT: Changed the EV spread so it can still outpace the unboosted meta and also have some added bulk.

I like this set a lot, it's the same as PZ up in OU but it allows P2 to get past some of the more annoying mons for it such as Doublade. Ghost-typing also allows P2 to get around the numerous Mach Punch users in the tier making its sweep easier. This set of course hasn't been tested yet so it is all theoretical. An option that could be considered is Psyshock over SBall. If P2 gets a +2 boost in SpAtk it can use TBolt to 2HKO SpDef Doublade.

This set can always be tailored to fit specific teams. An option is TBolt in the first slot. Then running Ice Beam + Recover; however, Chansey is a huge issue to this and needs to be removed before sweeping.

cohiba

This gen, GF decided to bless us with an historically low number of new middle evos, and (spoiler) most of them are generally useless. Rather than just taking my word for it, though, here's a somewhat brief look at the new toys we have to play with in SM MC. Keep in mind that this is roughly 99% speculation, as this gen's meta was only just added to the ROM Server this morning, thanks to the lovely urkerab, and I'm therefore prepared to eat my words should any of this not end up being the case. In no particular order:

In many ways, Hakamo-o is just...not Fraxure. Fraxure is a bit faster and much, MUCH stronger - all Hakamo-o has going for it as a DDer is more bulk and (possibly) better abilities, although for the most part they're circumstantial at best from what I can tell, but neither of these translate to a reason to use it as your DDer or SDer over Fraxure. Its typing only serves to add more weaknesses, since weak-as-hell Fighting STAB isn't doing it any favors offensively. What does make it worth using is access to EQ. This is huge for exactly one reason: the existence of Doublade, which blanks the hell out of Fraxure but can't do the same to Hakamo-o because of this Ground coverage.

Pretty damn good damage considering how easy Doublade is to wear down in practice. That said, Fairies are obviously a MASSIVE issue for this thing, but it has Rock Slide and can run Rockium Z to make quick work of Togetic, which is its single biggest road block (lack of PJab sucks). Even then, though, its general damage output is pretty pitiful, and it's forced into using Outrage if it wants good damage against anything even reasonably bulky. For example (I will be keeping the calcs to a minimum, don't worry):

As far as other options, it also has Bulk Up, but it isn't actually bulky enough to use a SpDef set (almost all relevant Ice coverage still easily 2HKOes), and, you know, Fairies. Special sets are only weaker and have poorer coverage.

In short: Quite niche DDer. Generally, if you want to use Hakamo-o, you're better off with Fraxure + Spikes. Its extra bulk, which would in theory make it harder to revenge kill, is pretty much balanced out by the very relevant extra weaknesses its typing adds.

This thing is mildly interesting. It has better offensive stats than its main competition in Monferno, and while its movepool is pretty dry, it kind of has everything it needs with Blitz and U-turn, and Outrage is kind of cool. Lack of secondary STAB really sucks though - a strong dual STAB combo is really what makes Monferno dangerous, after all. Lack of priority is another minus, as is weakness to rocks where Monferno only takes neutral damage from them; an offensive pivot that is weak to rocks and whose only good STAB move comes with recoil is never good news. Its Speed advantage isn't a terribly big deal either.

Essentially, Torracat is going to struggle mightily against teams with Rhydon, but it's actually rather threatening against teams lacking it - only still not as threatening as Monferno, because CC does a hell of a lot more than Outrage despite that gap in base Attack, and that's without touching on the massive disadvantages that come with the latter move.

Special sets might be worth looking into if not for the fact that Torracat's special movepool is somehow even worse than its physical one.

You know...it's the typical early-route Bug, so it should be useless, but Charjabug isn't quite awful. It's got very respectable Attack, interesting - almost anti-meta - typing with flawless neutral coverage on the metagame, and it's quite bulky physically (eats an Adamant Croconaw Waterfall after rocks, for example) and not terribly frail specially. However, a Speed tier that can beat min 40s like Togetic and Rhydon with the proper EVs but not much else before not being worth it holds it back significantly. While Fire and Rock aren't terribly common attacking types, its rocks weakness tends to put it in range of stronger attacks, and again, keep in mind that literally everything can revenge kill it (or play around it then threaten it out without much effort, because its STABs are rather easy to switch into individually). Because of this poor Speed, it struggles to capitalize on the KO opportunities that would otherwise be present because of its uniquely annoying coverage combination, although Rhydon gives it a good amount of trouble regardless. Additionally, Volt Switch would be cooler if some of its main switch-ins (the aforementioned Rhydon, Marshtomp) weren't immune to it. This would have been a more serious sleeper threat if not for the T-Wave nerf - as things stand, somewhere around Adamant Krokorok (neutral 74) and above still outspeed this particular spread even while paralyzed. Slap an LO on it and it could be something for TR though, who knows.

In short: Surprisingly decent wallbreaker with some potential utility thanks to T-Wave, although held back by incredibly low Speed. Kind of a frailer, weaker Gurdurr with no priority but more difficult to switch into and to revenge in some situations.

The inevitable Graveler - Rhydon comparison allows me to joyfully hearken back to RBY, when the only reason to use Golem over Rhydon was access to Explosion - which is to say, there's really no reason to use this over Rhydon. Its typing is awful both offensively and defensively, and Graveler is so painfully inferior to Rhydon in so many facets that one turn of incredibly strong wallbreaking prowess will very, very rarely make up for it. Non-STAB EQ and Toxic are its only ways to do even the tiniest bit of damage to Ground-types, so don't expect to actually be able to use your Electric-type Explosion to any effect if you see a Gabite or Marshtomp on the opponent's team. That said, if there isn't one, something is absolutely going to get KOed.

Magnet Pull would be cool if it could trap Doublade. Magneton being back in the tier could make such a set marginally useful, but not really.

Saved the best for last :D Trumbeak is REALLY cool. A Flying-type with BB that dunks on Rhydon and has the tools to break through Doublade?? Yes please. Besides providing coverage for Steels, Flame Charge can turn non-Choice Trumbeak into a deadly sweeper after that Speed boost. If not for the Gale Wings nerf, bird spam cores with this + Fletch would have been incredible :( missed opportunity.

Trumbeak seems like it has the potential to become too good somewhere down the road just because it's damn near impossible to switch into, but rocks weakness + BB recoil + mediocre Speed should be enough to keep it in check. Overall, Trumbeak has the tools to be a top tier breaker/cleaner.

I'll be building teams and looking for people to test with, so don't hesitate to ask for a game if you see me! Might also make a post about Z-moves in the near future after I've had a chance to explore them sufficiently. In the meantime, get out there and mess around with these new threats, and please do share any cool sets, cores, and teams you come up with.

They Don't Want None

Because it's the only non-ladder OM with a thread Middle Cup has been has been selected as the Leader's Choice for December!

Some of you may be wondering what our policy is regarding Leader's Choice. We will be choosing OMs based on their forum presence. If an OM thread is successful during a particular month, and it fails to win OMotM, it will be eligible for Leader's Choice. However, the Leader's Choice will no longer receive a ladder, but a challenge only format for the month. In addition, the format will be part of the OM room daily tours for that month.

We hope you, Mazz, make the most of this - as well as all future selections. This is your chance to gain some following and possibly be in the running for the next month's OMotM!

I was interested in MC in ORAS but finding a battle was almost impossible. Hopefully this will change in SM.

New Pokémon don't look terribly useful (as Threw pointed out already), on the other side ma boi Porygon2 looks better than ever. I'll probably stick to defensive sets because I'm too wussy to use it without Recover.

Celesteela is Life

I haven't played way too much Gen 7 MC, but I think that Rock Polish Alolan Graveler could become one of the scariest set-up sweepers the meta has to offer. After a Rock Polish, it outspeeds all of the unboosted meta, and it's actually really strong, with Rock/Electric/Ground having neutral coverage against everything in Middle Cup except Vibrava (which is pretty bad w/o Evio). Galvanize-boosted Return is very strong, landing OHKOs and 2HKOs on most offensive mons not resistant to it, but also bulkier Pokémon, such as Porygon2, Prinplup and Togetic. Stone Edge is a great secondary STAB that's your best bet against Grass-types and Dragon-types. Earthquake's main purpose is to hit Rhydon, one of the better Alolan Graveler switch-ins out there, landing a 2HKO on offensive sets and almost 2HKOing tank sets. It's also Alolan Graveler's best move against Steel-types like Metang and Doublade, who can threaten it with EQ and Sacred Sword, respectively. Alolan Graveler does need a bit of support to work at it's best, as it's outsped by most Scarfers, is hurt by the presence of EQ as coverage on a lot of Pokémon, and needs help breaking down bulkier Ground-types and Grass-types. But with that bit of extra support, I think Alolan Graveler has potential to become a great sweeper in Middle Cup due to it's strong coverage and power, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it and many other mons and mechanics (especially Z-moves) will fare in Gen 7 Middle Cup!

And if you're having trouble looking for battles, you can PM me under the name CherylBush on PS, I'll usually have a team or two to test out.

I have to ask, what's the point of Power Herb Fly when itemless Acrobatics does more damage and is more accurate anyway? At that point might as well just forego an item entirely and replace Fly with some utility or physical fire stab, like Roost, U-Turn, Will-O-Wisp, or Flame Charge.

just curious, why is eviolite banned? it just seems to me like the meta would adapt, and you can still ban stuff if necessary. IIRC chansey was banned anyway in ORAS, so it's not like no fat pokemon have been banned. Thanks!

cohiba

just curious, why is eviolite banned? it just seems to me like the meta would adapt, and you can still ban stuff if necessary. IIRC chansey was banned anyway in ORAS, so it's not like no fat pokemon have been banned. Thanks!

Mostly a fear that too many Pokemon would be ban-worthy and that bulky playstyles would be far too dominant, which isn't unfounded because MC is severely lacking in the incredibly hard hitters present in official tiers (our mons only hit hard in comparison to the unboosted bulk of their fellow middle evos). Note that this is theory, but do not expect us to be relying on theorizing alone for too terribly much longer.

will an eviolite-legal meta ever be tested? i understand the fear that bulky teamstyles might become dominant, but I also feel like offensive playstyles wouldnt become completely dead since they have knock off and setup moves. stallbreakers also exist.

Cheryl thought of this first, so credit to her. Z-Rain Dance sets Rain and gives you +1 Speed, allowing you to emulate swift swim while also boosting your Hydro Pumps through the roof. Ice Beam and HP grass hit grasses and Marshtomp and will more than likely KO them in one or two attacks, or put them into hydro pump range. Very devastating cleaner that can be hard to switch into unless you're chansey.

Hello. Recent Smogon member and thus obviously new to Middle Cup too. When I saw Middle Cup as on option on XYORAS's PS!, I found the prospect of a Mdiddle Evos only metagame quite interesting and thought I could wiggle in with Sun and Moon around the corner. Once I find time, I want to invest in it. So I want ask, is there any idea when this will get an official ladder on the main menu?

Hello. Recent Smogon member and thus obviously new to Middle Cup too. When I saw Middle Cup as on option on XYORAS's PS!, I found the prospect of a Mdiddle Evos only metagame quite interesting and thought I could wiggle in with Sun and Moon around the corner. Once I find time, I want to invest in it. So I want ask, is there any idea when this will get an official ladder on the main menu?

cohiba

We don't have any sort of ladder at the moment. Please refer to TI's extremely clear post on that subject.

To not make this post a complete waste: There was an MC tour in the OM room yesterday. I've collected the replays and plan to watch them and share what interesting things I noticed when I get the proper free moments, including providing my thoughts on that ungodly P2 set (hint: it's unbelievably fucking busted!!).

Imasugu

We don't have any sort of ladder at the moment. Please refer to TI's extremely clear post on that subject.

To not make this post a complete waste: There was an MC tour in the OM room yesterday. I've collected the replays and plan to watch them and share what interesting things I noticed when I get the proper free moments, including providing my thoughts on that ungodly P2 set (hint: it's unbelievably fucking busted!!).

Rhydon gets a whole lot scarier if you add a Z-Move to the mix. Essentially, this is your basic RP Rhydon except with the ability to Nuke Chansey and do a ton to waters with Tectonic Rage. Ice Punch is run to hit grasses without having to give up Tectonic Rage. Cool set overall if you can afford a Z-Crystal.