If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: RIP Mayor Twat ( sorry Mayor Koch)

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

Perhaps in hindsight it is too easy to forget that Harvey Milk was assassinated in 1978, the first openly gay man elected in the U.S., and that was in categorically the most gay-friendly major city in the country.

I'm not capable of assessing how much Mr. Koch ignored the cause in the early years when it was perceived as yet another venereal disease, never a topic that would be an aid to an elected official trying to stay in office to maintain his influence.

"Maybe" seems more than dismissive of the accolades your own link accorded to Mr. Koch. It sounds like that article did not find him as a man shrinking from defending gays.

The matter of insulting a man, by no account a despot or tyrant, on the day of his death, contravenes conventions of respect common in every society.

Re: RIP Mayor Twat ( sorry Mayor Koch)

I can't find the quote, but I believe he once responded to questions about his sexuality by saying something along the lines of "I resent the question, because it's asked in a way that implies being gay is something you should deny, or should be ashamed of. And I don't think that's the way it should be." Again, that was back in the 1970s.

Re: RIP Mayor Twat ( sorry Mayor Koch)

He was a good guy---more a gay celibate than gay gay---some guys that old r just are old school about their private life. He loved his city and if you r a New Yorker, you know where he's coming from. RIP.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88

He was a good guy---more a gay celibate, married to his career---(I actually know a guy, an attorney, who looks like a young Koch who is also a gay celibate, not someone who would do well in the gay dating world) I mean Koch lived in the Village all his life and there were never any pics of him with a boyfriend or hanging out at happy hour in a gay bar. He loved NYC and did his best. RIP.

Re: RIP Mayor Twat ( sorry Mayor Koch)

As far as I know he supported gay rights back in the 70's when no one was---as far as AIDS crisis in America in the 80's, you won't fine too many elected political hero's --doing all they should have done---fucked up but true, hard to judge.

Re: RIP Mayor Twat ( sorry Mayor Koch)

Originally Posted by nycguydowntown

As far as I know he supported gay rights back in the 70's when no one was---as far as AIDS crisis in America in the 80's, you won't fine too many elected political hero's --doing all they should have done---fucked up but true, hard to judge.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

Koch is universally accepted as an effective political leader who literally saved NYC from Detroit's path. Simply, gay "leaders" never liked Koch because they wanted him to be East Coast's Milk, but it was his choice not to be one. He is accused of "self loathing, selling out," etc. In later years, his own liberals hated him because he was "crossing party lines," so the negative smear continued. NYC was in dire situation during his leadership: facing bankruptcy, high crime rates, homelessness, city agencies hanging on the line, public transit was horrible, and on top of that the limousine liberals in charge of the state and city were involved in all sorts of corruption. Decades later, Koch was very open about what he regretted doing to save the city. Very few politicians admit their mistakes. Years after Koch's term, NYC Health Department leadership was pushing for banning gay bath houses which were AIDS meccas, but the gay leadership again were on revolt accusing the city of discrimination and homophobia. They wanted the government to quickly invent some magical cure and hand it out for free so they can continue to party in the village, but reality wasn't so rosy.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

"Gay activists had long bashed Koch for his silence on his sexuality, with some even charging that his reticence contributed to the AIDS plague.
“We must never forget that this man was an active participant in helping us to die, in murdering us,” playwright Larry Kramer wrote in 2012.
Kramer was irate at Koch, in his function as a movie critic, for offering positive reaction to a documentary about AIDS called, “How to Survive a Plague.”
But Koch unabashedly defended his record on gay rights and his support of the gay community.

In 1984, he became the first mayor to march in the city’s Gay Pride Parade. He also boasted of appointing gay judges and introducing a bill in Congress with former New York Rep. Bella Abzug to outlaw discrimination based on sexual orientation.

One of his first acts as mayor was to ban such discrimination by city agencies." http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...1252984?pgno=1
How people forget quickly that our current liberal Governor Andrew Cuomo (who is now a hero in the gay world for passing gay marriage in NY) was running smear campaigns for his dad against Koch using the slogans "Vote For Cuomo Not The Homo." Koch never forgave them for that; I believe the constant witch-hunt to figure out Koch's private life and sexual orientation did turn him off from greater involvement in the LGBT scene. But for a politician to march as the first mayor in gay pride parades or push for none discrimination laws in the city for gays, is very contradictory to a politician who was "complicit in murdering gays in the AIDS epidemic." Today, it's not a challenge for a politician to attend gay rights causes and accept GLAAD awards when gay rights became socially hip.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

I am deeply disappointed to find a memorial thread spammed via merging with the "TWAT" thread. I've asked the mods to either close this or unmix it.

In an era in which the U.S. gay population has struggled to find politicians with the guts to support us openly, we "honor" one who did by excoriating him for not being more of a champion. Further, dictating that he had to be out in a day in which it was virtual political suicide and would have instantly armed his opposition with a certain weapon, even in NYC.

Eat our own much?

you don't like my choice of words.
I don't like his choice of being silent when voices needed to be heard.

Kochís hubris seems to be his lack of empathy (not as bad as Rudolph Giulianiís, but close), be it with the black community on the closing of a hospital in Harlem, or his unsympathetic response to the murder of a black man at the hands of white youths in Brooklyn; or his lack of compassion, whether real or perceived, at the time of the AIDS crisis in the '80s."

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

Mayor Koch was irritating, grumpy, a pain in the ass, and obnoxious. And those were his good qualities. I disliked him for many years. He happens to be the best mayor we have had in my lifetime (I'm over 50). He took over as Mayor when the City was in dire straights and turned things around. He did not decimate social services, he did not demonize unions, he was not anti-working class and poor people, he was not the mayor of the 1%. All in contrast to our current mayor, Bloomberg, who is horrible. The wrong mayor died today. RIP Ed Koch.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

Good grief. I see no evidence that the man was a stranger to controversy in his lifetime or that he would have blushed from debate in the strongest terms. His legacy is debatable. But I doubt he would have framed any argument about style or substance in terms of "well that's wrong because a Canadian said it." Seriously.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

I'm not pretending to be Koch-by-proxy. That said, I don't recall him apologizing for his positions that defended gay rights.

My comment is that the criticism of the late mayor seems to be of the tenor that he hurt "US" by his being closeted. "WE" have rights as citizens differently in our different nations.

I'm sincerely not clear how the politics of New York's mayor have hindered what progress what possible in Canada.

I have no ill-will for Canada or Canadians, and I wish the reverse were true.

As for defending the subject of my thread, I do not shrink from that, and I have yet to read anything that refutes the historical record that Mr. Koch was an advocate of gay rights in civil policies and law. So, again I ask, why is he a villain if he advanced our cause? Why?

Wasn't my point. To amplify: in the debate over this man's legacy, an accurate assessment of his political life will not depend on whether the assessment is made by a Canadian or not. I have no ill-will for New Yorkers, for example; my positive regard for them could be embodied in a recognition that Koch was a terrible mayor and I lament the time wasted under his tenure, or it could be embodied in a recognition that New Yorkers elected a great man to lead them. I don't know enough about Koch to say. But I do know enough to realize that my opinion on his leadership has nothing to do with my passport.

And select people in this thread are debating the passport of the opinion-holder, rather than the opinion. It's ineffective and unconvincing. I have no bone to pick with your presentation of points in his favour on the issue of equality. And normally I would agree that it does a seemly courtesy to the memory of the deceased to focus on his accomplishments on the day of his death, rather than his failings. But I do know enough of the persona of Ed Koch from having seen him in interviews over the years, that he would be neither surprised nor wounded that his legacy would be debated before the sun sets the first day of his absence. That was my only disagreement with you.

But for all who are more concerned with snow than opinions, the snow melted here today; go shovel your own.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

Ed Koch was so many contradictory things....a lot of people loved him, others loathed him. He had a bigger than life ego but decisive leaders are often flawed people, and he was essential in getting New York turned around...headed for decay he would not let the city he loved go down without him fighting for it. He was an original and will be missed.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

I'm at an absolute loss as to how the opinion of a poster here about 1 issue has turned into a slanging match where that opinion is "bashing Amercia" and the responses are all about shovelling snow and living in a boring country. This place needs to become a reality TV show.

I have no idea who Ed Koch was beyond the articles I've read about him today and a snippet where he was in Sex in the City and Short Bus as himself.

Based on the reactions in this thread, you have to ask yourself if 1 action - or perceived lack thereof - is enough to derail all the good he appears to have achieved.

I remember when Regan died and the viciousness of the Gay community based on his absolute lack of reaction to the GRIDS/HIV/AIDS crisis in the early 80's. I saw none of this "well fuck you you're not American you're not entitled to an opinion" nonsense. From memory I saw nothing but hatred spewed at the man. I find that interesting.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

Originally Posted by ravenstar

I'm at an absolute loss as to how the opinion of a poster here about 1 issue has turned into a slanging match where that opinion is "bashing Amercia" and the responses are all about shovelling snow and living in a boring country. This place needs to become a reality TV show.

I have no idea who Ed Koch was beyond the articles I've read about him today and a snippet where he was in Sex in the City and Short Bus as himself.

Based on the reactions in this thread, you have to ask yourself if 1 action - or perceived lack thereof - is enough to derail all the good he appears to have achieved.

I remember when Regan died and the viciousness of the Gay community based on his absolute lack of reaction to the GRIDS/HIV/AIDS crisis in the early 80's. I saw none of this "well fuck you you're not American you're not entitled to an opinion" nonsense. From memory I saw nothing but hatred spewed at the man. I find that interesting.

cheer up is a sure sum awsum folk make muscial
ans folk get a good soak

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

Ed Koch was good for New York City.
He pulled the city out of a true financial mess.
But his goodness ended at the Rockland County line.
He didn't seem to have a very high opinion of upstate New York.
He made some really silly comments about upstaters when he was running for governor.
That was why he lost the chance for his party's nomination....
Nevertheless, he was one of those characters who kept coming back for more.....
Rest in peace Mayor Koch.....

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

There's a difference between the hyperbolic "fuck you, you're not entitled" and "what is it to you? He didn't represent you, nor did he liberate your legal rights, nor did he impede your progress in Canada because he didn't move along NYC as fast as you wanted him to."

It seems fine for there to be an endless stream of Behold the Great Satan America via threads from Canadians about our politicians, our industry, our celebrities, etc., but when we are bold enough to observe that it is an attack from outside, we are suddenly the xenophobes. Isn't being attacked from without simply a reasonable trigger to in fact defend your causes, leaders, and institutions?

One poster may have insulted the Canadians, but even then, he didn't say anything any more caustic than had already been hurled at us for simply defending the late mayor's record. Somehow, answering that insult and attack has become worse than the attack. Odd that.

I certainly never said Pete or others were not entitled to opine, but I did and do hold that the observations are colored by their remote relation to the actions and policies of the former mayor of NYC.

Maybe it's easier to be less sensitive about your country, since I haven't notices any Aussie bashing on JUB.

There's definitely times when the Aussie bashers start on JUB Hard-up1. People will always have an opinion, whether they like this country or not like that country.

I'm not saying either side is worse than the other, I was simply observing that people outside of the US are entitled to their opinion on a persons achievements or perceived lack. My main thought when I read the post was "how in the hell can 1 opinion get under people's skin so much it derails an entire thread."

And to be blunt, I wasn't actually referring to any one particular post in this thread when I wrote my reply. It's a given on this board that there's going to be a shit storm the minute someone disagrees with another.

Instead of ignoring the negative comments and continuing on with the remember this mans achievements, like every other thread on JUB about a polarising figure, it's lost it's way and is now no longer about the man, but the two countries.

You were probably right in that the 2 threads should never have been combined. If we'd been left with the 2 threads, one for his supporters, the other for his detractors one thread would have plummeted and disappeared fast enough to have had no impact. As it stands combining the two just made certain all hell would break loose.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

Yeah. It wasn't rocket science. When one thread branded the deceased TWAT and the other used the honorific accorded former mayors, it was pretty clear there'd be a shitstorm for the amusement of those viewing from the tower.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

Originally Posted by ravenstar

I'm at an absolute loss as to how the opinion of a poster here about 1 issue has turned into a slanging match where that opinion is "bashing Amercia" and the responses are all about shovelling snow and living in a boring country. This place needs to become a reality TV show.

I have no idea who Ed Koch was beyond the articles I've read about him today and a snippet where he was in Sex in the City and Short Bus as himself.

Based on the reactions in this thread, you have to ask yourself if 1 action - or perceived lack thereof - is enough to derail all the good he appears to have achieved.

I remember when Regan died and the viciousness of the Gay community based on his absolute lack of reaction to the GRIDS/HIV/AIDS crisis in the early 80's. I saw none of this "well fuck you you're not American you're not entitled to an opinion" nonsense. From memory I saw nothing but hatred spewed at the man. I find that interesting.

No being at a loss here. It's the norm of the day, this "me" only attitude. ESP on forums where there's no real-time personal action. And that's why they do it. Wouldn't DARE step up in someone's face and bring it on, because they know they'd get knocked out. And that's the thing - I see it as cowardice, to be honest. They don't care what they "derail" as long as they get to say "I'M RIGHT AND ONLY MY OPINION MATTERS!"

A lot of people THINK they're right, and everyone else is WRONG. There's no trying to have a civil discussion with those... it's immediate disseminating rhetoric on full tilt! Their side and only theirs. No true "intelligent" discussion or debate.

And unfortunately this will never change. Sad for those people, all those bitter, angry, closed-minded assholes out there, plain and simple.

Re: The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

There's a difference between the hyperbolic "fuck you, you're not entitled" and "what is it to you? He didn't represent you, nor did he liberate your legal rights, nor did he impede your progress in Canada because he didn't move along NYC as fast as you wanted him to."

It seems fine for there to be an endless stream of Behold the Great Satan America via threads from Canadians about our politicians, our industry, our celebrities, etc., but when we are bold enough to observe that it is an attack from outside, we are suddenly the xenophobes. Isn't being attacked from without simply a reasonable trigger to in fact defend your causes, leaders, and institutions?

One poster may have insulted the Canadians, but even then, he didn't say anything any more caustic than had already been hurled at us for simply defending the late mayor's record. Somehow, answering that insult and attack has become worse than the attack. Odd that.

I certainly never said Pete or others were not entitled to opine, but I did and do hold that the observations are colored by their remote relation to the actions and policies of the former mayor of NYC.

Maybe it's easier to be less sensitive about your country, since I haven't notices any Aussie bashing on JUB.

I'm sorry but no; Bottom line, I don't believe we would be seeing this "what's it to you?" reaction if non-Americans had been paying tribute to his noble leadership. And your notion of "being attacked from without" is the very definition of the kind of nationalism you reject earlier. Next, there is no campaign of anti-Americanism going on. As I've mentioned in other threads, I would be thrilled to see much more discussion about the 96% of the world that is not American. I would be thrilled to see much more discussion between just the millions of anglophones among whom Americans are perhaps a plurality but still a decisive minority. In the absence of enough critical mass for those other conversations to occur, I'm pleased to join in more topics about the US than would normally merit air time. And of course, no one talks about "the modest advance of the mandatory air bag initiative" or "the remarkable efficiency of the modern public lending library," they bitch about things that annoy them. When you combine the human propensity to bitch about things that annoy them, with a disproportionate amount of attention on the US, it is easy to mistake for anti-americanism. But it is no doubt a mistake.

The best thing to come out of the greek debacle was the freedom to give one's honest opinion about a world event caused by moronic governance, without being reflexively accused of anti-americanism. Ahh, memories….