On 23/11/2010 tnd wrote:>So everyone who's had a head injury climbing made a bad choice?

Clearly, you made the choice to climb, but that's not the point, the point is whether the best choice given the available information was made. Obviously, sh1t happens, climbing, driving, walking down the street, suffering an aneurysm

Given the risks, that I'm currently not prepared to take, if I believed that a helmet was necessary in possibly preventing a serious injury from occurring, then I wouldn't climb period. If people want to take more risks than me while climbing and choose to wear helmet to reduce their risk of injury then that is fine as well, for them.

>Given the risks, that I'm currently not prepared to take, if I believed>that a helmet was necessary in possibly preventing a serious injury from>occurring, then I wouldn't climb period. If people want to take more risks>than me while climbing and choose to wear helmet to reduce their risk of>injury then that is fine as well, for them.

On 23/11/2010 rolsen1 wrote:>... Given the risks, that I'm currently not prepared to take, if I believed>that a helmet was necessary in possibly preventing a serious injury from>occurring, then I wouldn't climb period.

So ... you believe a helmet isn't necessary to prevent possible serious injury while climbing? Or do you believe a helmet is necessary to prevent possible serious injuries that could occur while climbing, so you don't climb?

If you're really drunk one night and go to sit on the toilet, make sure you've got your helmet on in case you go comatose, fall forward and hit your head on the floor.

As a prudent risk manager, if you are being really logical and well organised, you will make sure that you always have a spare helmet sitting beside the toilet to put on in case of just such an eventuality.

I think what Wendy said is true. It is what people are used to. I wear a helmet most times I climb. Most likely as early on I mostly was mountaineering so it felt normal, so when I started rock climbing I just continued. I assume people donít wear them because they are uncomfortable, heavy etc Ö
I agreed that danger can be low hence you donít wear it, but there I think people are weighing up comfort/weight versus risk.
Like all of climbing as long as you are clear why you are doing something and are aware of the risk, whatever you do is fine.

On 23/11/2010 Olbert wrote:>>Thinking about it I would suggest its much more likely to happen on a>12 than a 29. A 12 is much more likely to have loose rock with lots of>big jugs ready to snap off; it might be very wandery and have large sections>where the rock hasnt cleaned up; it is much more likely to be a trad route,>in which case a fall may rip a chunk of rock out (if the rock is a bit>shitty) or the leader might fumble gear; the route is more likely to be>ledgy and so a fall might result in hitting the rock in a bad way.>>The 29 on the other hand is much more likely to be on solid compact rock>with no jugs that can rip off; its going to be a much more defined line>(by chalk) and so the climber is much less likely to get off route; its>probably going to be a sport route and so much smaller chance of fumbling>gear and ripping it out in a fall. Also the 29 is probably going to be>overhanging and continuous so a fall would be into open space with nothing>to hit but air.

This is full of the sort of assumptions that people seem to make about risk - why is an easy climb much more likely to have loose rock? Why are trad routes more likely to have rock fail? How much rock has been pulled of the Organ Pipes of late? It is much more crag dependant than grade or style dependant. I tore heaps of holds off on my one visit to Atlantis and my recent trip to Red Rocks saw holds flying of sport routes all the time. The Dreamtime Wall sport routes have some of the worst rock in the Grampians. The Sun Deck was once described as potentially a great crag if you attack it with a pick axe and jimmy bar. You could argue that easy climbs see more traffic and are thus cleaner and more obvious.

Sure, a leader might be fumbling with gear on a trad route, but sport crags often get way busier and the routes are usually packed in such that the chances of you having someone climbing above you higher. Your leader on a 12 is unlikely to get pumped and probably has a good position to do their fumbling from, reducing risk of dropping gear, whereby a harder climb could see wildly pumped leaders flailing with gear in desperation and even sport climbers drop draws. The 12 may be ledgy, but i suspect that poses risks beyond that which can be ameliorated by a helmet. If you fall head first on to a ledge, the helmet is unlikely to save you. Not all hard, nor all sport, climbs are steep enough to not swing back in - Steps Ahead and Dogger's Gully still have plenty of hitting the cliff potential - as does the Ravine, Shipley, Celebrity Crag, the Freezer - and they aren't immune from inconvenient ledges either.

People do a lot more falling at sport crags - surely this increases the chance of them hitting their head? When I climb trad I have a chance of falling off, there's not shortage of gear in it. It's pretty hard to tip upside down when the gear rarely makes it below your waist. However, on a sport climb, you are going to be taking bigger falls. There's also that famous "I'll just run it out because if I place gear/clip that bolt, I'll run out of juice and fall off", which is hardly likely to happen on a 12. People feel safer pushing themselves at sport crags, so you see plenty of less experienced people getting themselves into poor positions from which to take a fall as they struggle with a false sense of security provide by sportclimbing.

I am partly being devil's advocate here, I don't wear a helmet probably 1/2 the time, but I do believe that this sense that sport climbing is somehow safer and suffiently less risky to justify not wearing a helmet is false. If there is any reduced risk, it's pretty bloody small and not enough to justify the claims of increased safety. Wear one or not, but don't try and claim it's because sport climbing is significantly safer.

If we really wanted to make a dent into climbing injuries, we would could focus on ensuring all new climbers received safe and competant instruction, encourage people to put more gear in, point out when their gear is crap or they are about to make a pisspoor decision, discourage soloing/taking risks on bodgy access and descents/meandering around cliff edges unroped, challenge some of the machismo culture still in climbing which leads to some people taking greater risks. I know people like to carry on about the importance of helmets, but if you look at accidents that have happened, appropriate use of equipment/ropes/good judgement would have prevented many of them happening in the first place. I think I have said this before - helmets don't prevent stupidity.

On 23/11/2010 Doug Bruce wrote:>If you're really drunk one night and go to sit on the toilet, make sure>you've got your helmet on in case you go comatose, fall forward and hit>your head on the floor.>>As a prudent risk manager, if you are being really logical and well organised,>you will make sure that you always have a spare helmet sitting beside the>toilet to put on in case of just such an eventuality.

I had an accident a few years ago and broke bones in my hand. I was washing brewing vessels and taste testing in the bathroom and slipped over. I used my hand to protect my head from the bath. If I'd been wearing a helmet I wouldn't of broken my hand.

On 24/11/2010 widewetandslippery wrote:>I had an accident a few years ago and broke bones in my hand. I was washing>brewing vessels and taste testing in the bathroom and slipped over. I used>my hand to protect my head from the bath. If I'd been wearing a helmet>I wouldn't of broken my hand.

Not all hard,>nor all sport, climbs are steep enough to not swing back in - Steps Ahead>and Dogger's Gully still have plenty of hitting the cliff potential - >as does the Ravine, Shipley, Celebrity Crag, the Freezer - and they aren't>immune from inconvenient ledges either.>
I have taken lots and lots of falls at the Freezer and never come close to the rock, its a lot steeper than it looks.........will never get on Steps Ahead as my fingers don't do holds that small, but what exactly are you going to hit falling off that blankness?

Some simple facts in relation to a wide variety of sports or activities where an impact to the head is possible:

1. In many cases you don't have to wear a helmet
2. In most cases its bloody obvious that its a good idea to wear a helmet
3. Take a really hard whack to the head and next time you'll probably wear a helmet

Quite normal ... i obviously talk too much.>>This part is a little bit bullshit>> Not all hard,>>nor all sport, climbs are steep enough to not swing back in - Steps Ahead>>and Dogger's Gully still have plenty of hitting the cliff potential ->>>as does the Ravine, Shipley, Celebrity Crag, the Freezer - and they aren't>>immune from inconvenient ledges either.>>>I have taken lots and lots of falls at the Freezer and never come close>to the rock, its a lot steeper than it looks.........

Maybe I've never taken a big enough fall there ... it's easy enough on little falls.

will never get on>Steps Ahead as my fingers don't do holds that small, but what exactly are>you going to hit falling off that blankness?

uh, the wall? I've not tipped upside down falling off in 20 odd years, but as people seem to be able to do it somehow, anything that you can swing into the wall on is therefore a potential head injury.

>ambyeok wrote: Some simple facts in relation to a wide variety of sports or activities >where an impact to the head is possible:

>1. In many cases you don't have to wear a helmet>2. In most cases its bloody obvious that its a good idea to wear a helmet>3. Take a really hard whack to the head and next time you'll probably wear a helmet

I once kneed Cate in the head in a game of soccer - do you think we should wear helmets in soccer? Cate made the other obvious choice of not playing soccer again.