Attention: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

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Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Well loud music isnt threatening but what were the words?

J/K....

Let's face it as human beings we are animals.... just look back a day or two to black Friday and how many assaults and a few murders over cheap plastic shit.....

At a San Antonio, Texas, Sears, one man argued with customers and even punched one in order to get to the front of the line, prompting a man with a concealed carry permit to pull a gun, said Matthew Porter, public information officer of the San Antonio Police Department.

"It was a little chaotic. People were exiting the store," Porter said. "Fortunately for us, officers responded quickly and were able to ease the commotion."

The man who allegedly caused the altercation fled the scene and remains at large, Porter said. The shopper who pulled the gun will not face charges, he said, because of his concealed carry permit.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

temperature rising and it's not surprising.

dude better come up with a better defense in court than that. this wasn't a case of self defense. you don't drive up to somebody ready to start a fight telling them to turn down their music. it's pretty clear dude wanted to be a bully like the other asshole and when someone reminds his ass that he's nobody special, he wants to show who's in charge so he shots them up.

some people most definitely do not need guns in their hands. honestly, i think that all the crazy folks with the guns are basically killing the second amendment. guns were only made to protect the people from the government. now it seems like we have to protect the people from the people and that might be through putting stricter controls on guns.

one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

The truth of the matter is not as simple as black and white positions on race in the US.

If murder is a big concern in Hot Topics, then we'd be seeing threads about the preponderance of murderers demographically, but we don't, as it is not PC to address the crime rates that attend the poverty of the minorities.

Murder is a big problem, not just the occasional one off that is racially related.

This thread is yet another race baiting in tedious series of them here.

if murder is a big problem, then that means that the mindstate of america is an even bigger problem. what would posess someone to want to kill let alone hurt somebody? how mad can you be with someone? what message is being sent by shooting somebody? a lot of murders are NOT based off of self defense either. it's basically power issues. "since you did something i don't like, i'm going to show you who's the boss." the easiest way to do that is by hurting somebody physically.

one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Florida needs to get their shit together. It ain't Texas....hhmmmm. Never mind.

This is disturbing. This guy was not defending his home and as far as I know those kids were under no obligation to turn there music down. If he didn't like it he could have moved his car. Interesting that they left the scene and then once they heard someone had died they fled to where they lived. I wonder if he was drunk after leaving the wedding and that could have impacted this investigation where hopefully they wouldn't have even considered it a "Stand Your Ground" argument his lawyer is trying hide behind.

Pretty much, Jordan Davis and several other teenagers were sitting in a sport utility vehicle in the parking lot when the suspect Dunn pulled up next to them in a car and asked them to turn down their music.

Jordan and Dunn exchanged words, and Dunn pulled out a gun and shot eight or nine times, striking Jordan twice. Jordan was sitting in the back seat. No one else was hurt.

And of course the accused murderer is now claiming the same “Stand Your Ground” defense ..... over loud music. Dunn’s attorney Monday said her client acted responsibly and in self-defense.

Yeah, shooting an unarmed teenager NINE times is totally a justified case of self defense. Why is it ALWAYS Florida?!!!!!

*waits for someone trying to claim that the loud music was ‘threatening’ in 5… 4… 3…*

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

When you obsess and focus on these two cases, and ignore the much larger number of black-on-black teen murders, you effectively portray black teens as some sort of martyrs to racism in Florida. Although these two instances seem to be just that, by remaining silent on the hundreds of other murders of black teens, by blacks, you create more propaganda than concern.

that doesn't have anything to do with the thread.

one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by JayHawk

Well loud music isnt threatening but what were the words?

J/K....

Let's face it as human beings we are animals.... just look back a day or two to black Friday and how many assaults and a few murders over cheap plastic shit.....

If anyone actually physically comes up to my vehicle which I'm sitting in, even if it's just to ask a question or something, I already feel defensive/encroached on. I can't see how anything people did while sitting in their own vehicle could be remotely construed as provocatively aggressive.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

Race IS relevant, which is my entire point. Looking for a spectre of white-on-black racism and finding it, no matter how isolated, doesn't make it valid as a general criticism of American culture, nor even Floridian.

When you obsess and focus on these two cases, and ignore the much larger number of black-on-black teen murders, you effectively portray black teens as some sort of martyrs to racism in Florida. Although these two instances seem to be just that, by remaining silent on the hundreds of other murders of black teens, by blacks, you create more propaganda than concern.

The onus is not on me to raise concern over murders in the US if that is not my quest, but it is my concern to see arguments presented in context with reality instead of hysteria.

My sensitivities are not at stake, but balanced perspective, integrity of facts, and the portrayal of reality are. There is no prerequisite in Hot Topics of agreeing with the OP's premise in order to be allowed to voice opinions in debates, and starting another race thread on JUB is inherently engaging in debate.

I'll explain to you why it's relevant. These stupid stand your ground laws absolutely reek of good old boy vigilantism and cowboy mentality and every non white person out there with a decently strong sense of self-preservation upon hearing about these laws probably has the same reaction I did: concern that these laws are little but an excuse for overaggressive, trigger happy people coming up to you, creating a confrontation, and then shooting you under "stand your ground" and claiming they felt threatened.

That's why it being white-on-black or white-on-minority strikes a special chord in regard to these laws. If you have 10,000 cases of black people going up to other black people, initiating an altercation and then shooting them and defending it with "stand your ground" laws, then bring them up for discussion. Otherwise you're not making any point.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch

Teenagers can be bloody bloody irritating.

Just saying...

More irritating are adults with guns who have no respect for life and are worried about other people playing their music loud for two minutes while your white trash girlfriend is getting more wine for you to get drunk with. Now he's charged with murder, how irritating is that?

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by Beachguyj

More irritating are adults with guns who have no respect for life and are worried about other people playing their music loud for two minutes while your white trash girlfriend is getting more wine for you to get drunk with. Now he's charged with murder, how irritating is that?

Yeah people with guns who GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to confront someone while carrying a weapon and from all appearances INTENDING to create a confrontation, and then going "oh I felt threatened, I stood my ground and shot them." That's what happened with Trayvon and it most certainly looks like what happened here too.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by Beachguyj

More irritating are adults with guns who have no respect for life and are worried about other people playing their music loud for two minutes while your white trash girlfriend is getting more wine for you to get drunk with. Now he's charged with murder, how irritating is that?

Those teens are never going to play loud music in that neighborhood anymore...

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Another good point I saw on another site is that they guy fled and hid and tried to get away with it, there is no way that can called stand your ground, if it was he would have called 911 and explained what happened.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch

Those teens are never going to play loud music in that neighborhood anymore...

Maybe they won't, maybe they will, and others might. Loud music is not a death sentence in the US.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by Beachguyj

Another good point I saw on another site is that they guy fled and hid and tried to get away with it, there is no way that can called stand your ground, if it was he would have called 911 and explained what happened.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe they won't, maybe they will, and others might. Loud music is not a death sentence in the US.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought stand your ground was meant to protect those who kill someone while protecting themselves or their homes - regardless of the race of either party. If it is being exploited or misused in the court system, that's another problem entirely. It doesn't sound like the law really applies in this case; the shooter's attempt to use it as a defense should play out as recognizably bogus - our court systems doing the job they were designed to do.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by ixthrock

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought stand your ground was meant to protect those who kill someone while protecting themselves or their homes - regardless of the race of either party. If it is being exploited or misused in the court system, that's another problem entirely. It doesn't sound like the law really applies in this case; the shooter's attempt to use it as a defense should play out as recognizably bogus - our court systems doing the job they were designed to do.

I believe stand your ground covers shooting someone out in a public place. The law already recognizes the right to self defense in the home without needing a special stand your ground law.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by kevbo

I sincerely doubt it was as simple as that.

The fact of the matter is he was a defenseless teenager. The article even says he was shot and killed in the backseat of the vehicle, which would suggest that he didn't get physical with Dunn first. Even if he did threaten him verbally that in no way warrants a shooting.

I just hope it doesn't take as long to prosecute Dunn as it did with Zimmerman, and hopefully we can get these gun laws under control.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

So far, nobody knows what was said between the two of them. What, if any, threats were made by whom, towards whom.
So all we know at this point is, an asshole with a gun, met an asshole with a loud stereo...........GUN WON!!!
This isn't about racism, it's just another senceless killing. Funny how when a black person kills a white person you don't hear a peep about racism, hmmm, I wonder why.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by The Fly

So far, nobody knows what was said between the two of them. What, if any, threats were made by whom, towards whom.
So all we know at this point is, an asshole with a gun, met an asshole with a loud stereo...........GUN WON!!!
This isn't about racism, it's just another senceless killing. Funny how when a black person kills a white person you don't hear a peep about racism, hmmm, I wonder why.

Yes, you're right. They just chaulk it up to yet more black criminals what can you expect really.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by BFizzle

The fact of the matter is he was a defenseless teenager. The article even says he was shot and killed in the backseat of the vehicle, which would suggest that he didn't get physical with Dunn first. Even if he did threaten him verbally that in no way warrants a shooting.

I just hope it doesn't take as long to prosecute Dunn as it did with Zimmerman, and hopefully we can get these gun laws under control.

Yas show them to their seat

Originally Posted by The Fly

Funny how when a black person kills a white person you don't hear a peep about racism, hmmm, I wonder why.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

Lotta opinions, but no one is addressing the statistics by the Department of Justice.

The case is not made that this one-off is in any way typical of the average killing of a black male in Florida, or even in the US.

Although it is outrageous, the outrage here is still about race, which is not the rampant crime against teen blacks that is the implied problem.

Disparage, ridicule, use schoolyard epithets, but address the stats. This case is not typical.

You could just as easily pick some hit-and-run crime and then try to portray it as systemically a problem, when it is not.

Because if you take the lionshare of typical black-on-black crime it's going to involve robbery, people who are involved in drugs or the drug trade, or similar.

When a white guy goes up to black kids playing music and ends up shooting them of course it's going to stand out more than if we hear a shooting occurred during a drug deal gone bad or a drug addict who was robbering a 7-11. Because it's utterly senseless and there's no comprehensible reason why it happened other than for us to question if this guy was a racist or was looking to create a violent confrontation. Why in the world in an argument about music with some teenagers would you feel the need to pull out your gun and shoot them? When they were SITTING IN A CAR, no less? It's not like these kids were shoving him around and making him feel physically threatened.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

Again, there is no defense of this killing, even if the teens in some way verbally provoked the altercation that then escalated. But, your assumption that the senseless factor makes for outrage doesn't make good sense to me.

Whereas it IS senseless to kill for a petty argument, if we knew the motivations of the referenced black-on-black teen murders, they would likewise be senseless to most people too.

Racial murder is senseless. Drug deal murders are senseless. Ego and testosterone motivated murders are senseless. Fights over girlfriends ending in murder are senseless. Murders committed during theft are senseless.

My point remains that the great number of other senseless killings are appalling and a stain on our culture even more than the much more rare racist killing, if indeed this was about race or culture clash. And yeah, it is sad that someone would attempt a stand-your-ground defense, but lawyers often do outrageous strategies. Even if the killer was somehow able to get off with this unreasonable defense, it wouldn't make it typical, and it wouldn't outshadow all the tragedy of black-on-black murders.

Somehow, it is fashionable on JUB to pick a state like Florida, make generalizations about the entire populace based on a crime like this, and then portray it as some kind of hotbed of racial conflict. There must be a more compelling argument than one case. And, it seems ironic that taking offense at racism in a case like this then becomes the basis to stereotype Floridians. Think about it.

I'm sorry, but this post is nonsense. Yes, to a normal, law-abiding citizen, dying in a drug trade is senseless. But that murder didn't happen randomly as one guy walking up to another one with seemingly no reason and shooting him.

You are trying to apples and apples two situations that are clearly apples and oranges.

Oh and P.S.? Florida does have a horrible track record. If I casually think back on almost every random no motivation killing of a foreign tourist or black kid I've heard in the last decade or so, at least half of them were in Florida. No, no one has said everyone in Florida is an insane racist who shoots minorities on sight. But this kind of case comes slightly on the heels of the Trayvon case and you seriously want us to put an injunction order on talking about what might be going on with Florida and its laws specifically that might be setting the stage for these kinds of situations to happen? Too bad.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

Cite numbers.

I could post all day and call you epithets, but I posted statistics. You have posted none.

Far from "who cares", my posts are arguing that promoting propaganda that portrays the state of inter-racial violence, while ignoring the much higher rate of black on black killing, is simply a dishonest portrayal of the big problem that faces a black male today in terms of greater exposure to violent death.

Many, many, many more black males are killed every year by their own race. Why is that not an even greater problem? Why?

Howl at the moon, jibe as a kid, but you simply haven't attempted to explain why the greater number of black deaths at the hands of other blacks gets NO discussion or outrage on JUB, but the white-on-black killing becomes center stage as if it were typical.

Address the statistics.

I have to agree with GC here... you're turning this into "oh but you can't care about this issue because we have to talk about the whole volume of total causes of black deaths." That's just whitewashing, seriously. This topic is about on-black violence in Florida which appears to be empowered, or at the very least potentially legally defensible by, Florida's standing self-defense laws. Regardless of the intent of these laws they are engendering a vigilante mindset where trigger happy people are initiating confrontations with "threatening" (black) people and then shooting them and saying they felt threatened/shot them in self-defense. Yes, Florida's laws are playing a role here. Yes, race is playing a role here. This is not a thread about heart disease or sickle cell anemia or traffic accidents and how many black people are killed by those things. You are just trying to obfuscate the issue at hand with that line of reasoning.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

I find it funny.

A few months back, when that asshole shot all those people, (who were all races) in the batman theatre, no anti white, or racial remarks were made of the event. Just to add, he's labeled as a mental case and psychopath.

However, in what many are calling Trayvon Martin part 2, it's racist white man this and thug hoodlum black boy that.

That's all I have to point out for now. This story is still sort of new and nobody knows the full story.

Killing is killing. I don't care if the victim was purple and the shooter was yellow. If it was race related or not, killing is wrong.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

No, I'm trying to say that the outrage is very selective, and with the intent of portraying black teen as hapless victims of white brutality via vigilante actions.

And I don't see how you can view the Trayvon case OR this case as anything but exactly that. These were not guys out on the streets with weapons and running drugs or breaking people's windows. They were, as far as we can tell, just being utterly normal teenagers and they're dead because people who inherently think of most/all black males as threatening in any situation started confrontations with them while carrying a gun and apparently in the belief that Florida law justified what they were doing--- even in this case, the man is claiming that shooting someone unarmed in the back seat of a car was "self defense."

What do you conclude from that?

I've completely agreed that these cases are exactly that, most likely, but that choosing to focus on that as the problem needing great attention and outrage is disingenuous when the same killing is taking the lives of many, many more young black men, and at the hands of their own race and for reasons just as senseless.

It's not disingenuous at all. Those other deaths you are referring to are not happening because a really, really bad law is giving people a cowboy mindset to go out into the street with their gun and fix problems which wind up with an unarmed teenager dead for absolutely no reason.

It is an inconvenient truth, and denied effectively by extinction by the same posters on this forum who repeatedly raise the white-on-black racism issue. If white vigilante killings are the big problem in the US, then what exactly are the black killings, acceptable?

Who said they are acceptable? We said it's apples and oranges, you are the only one discussing it here because this thread IS ABOUT THE VIGILANTE KILLINGS. However if a law was specifically creating the legal gray-area which ENCOURAGED perpetrators of black-on-black violent crime to go out and do it, yes, I would be taking exception to that law too.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

I appologise to anyone I offended, it was an attempt at sarcasm that obviously failed. But that dosen't change the fact that people are sreaming racism before anyone knows the full details of what happened. A white person shot a black person, so far that's all we know. That racial dynamic dosen't automaticaly eqaute to racism.
Had Dunn been a black guy he may have shot that kid. Had the kid been white Dunn may have still shot him. Was there racism? Possibly/probably, but there are other variables to considder. Dunn was comming from a wedding (probably drinking) stopped at a convience store (buying beer?) notices/hears a SUV blarring load music, Dunn pumps up his beer muscles to go and put these kids in line. Dunn asks/tells the kids to turn the music down, a verbal exchange occurs, Dunn fires 8-9 times killing the kid in the back seat then runs, turning himself in the next day (after consulting an attourney no doubt)
You can speculate till the cows come home but there is no overt act or statement pointing to a racial bias or motivation that we know of yet.

Originally Posted by tombastep

Man, I am white and I always roll my eyes when people say things like this.

.
.
.
I don't know why you feel you should share your racial indentity with me, but ....congrats on your whiteness......I'm not.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by tombastep

And there are ALWAYS people who try to make these cases not seem racist at all no matter how much they actually are or appear to be. And someone not screaming racial slurs does not = not racist.

I never said there was "NO" racism, I have no idea what's in the shooters heart, nor do you. Just because there's a conflict between 2 people of different races dosen't automaticaly mean it's a racialy driven event. It seems that there are a few folks around who are hyper-vigilant to anything that could be construed as racialy motivated.
If it is proven that Dunn's motivation was racism, not loud music, then he would deserve to have the hate crime charging/sentencing enhansment leveled against him. But the constant drumbeat of racism is bullshit. The race of the shooter and victim in this case is errelevant unless you can show that that difference was "THE" motivating factor.
At the end of the day, it really dosen't matter how it "appears". When you look at life through the distorted prism of racism/victim hood, you just become convinced that "those" people are out to get you.
As far as "people who try to make theses cases seem not racist at all", thier vision is no better/worse than yours. One group has thier collective heads in the sand and the others (you) are running around like chicken little. Stop, catch a breath, an examine the known facts in the case and proceed from there.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by The Fly

I never said there was "NO" racism, I have no idea what's in the shooters heart, nor do you. Just because there's a conflict between 2 people of different races dosen't automaticaly mean it's a racialy driven event. It seems that there are a few folks around who are hyper-vigilant to anything that could be construed as racialy motivated.
If it is proven that Dunn's motivation was racism, not loud music, then he would deserve to have the hate crime charging/sentencing enhansment leveled against him. But the constant drumbeat of racism is bullshit. The race of the shooter and victim in this case is errelevant unless you can show that that difference was "THE" motivating factor.
At the end of the day, it really dosen't matter how it "appears". When you look at life through the distorted prism of racism/victim hood, you just become convinced that "those" people are out to get you.
As far as "people who try to make theses cases seem not racist at all", thier vision is no better/worse than yours. One group has thier collective heads in the sand and the others (you) are running around like chicken little. Stop, catch a breath, an examine the known facts in the case and proceed from there.

So do I understand your post correctly that it bothers you a lot more that someone might think a white guy going up to black kids in a car and shooting them with absolutely no physical threat might have been racially motivated than that a guy went up to some teenagers and shot them?

Given the other recent case in Florida and given its horrible law giving people the belief that this kind of behavior is "self-defense" and you have white guys initiating confrontations with black teenagers which end in "self-defense shootings", it's perfectly reasonable to believe race is involved.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by tombastep

I didn't say I knew what was in the shooters heart and didn't say anywhere that this was most definitely based on race but the situation is highly questionable. And no two people of different race having a conflict doesn't equal a racist conflict, what I was saying that just because someone wasn't spouting racial slurs doesn't mean it wasn't a racial based crime.

How am I running around like a little chicken? But if I am I guess it's better than you back pedaling by calling your initial response "sarcasm". I never claimed that this was most definitely a racist crime or that I knew all the facts, but as quickly as people are willing to call this a racist crime there are the same people who will quickly claim it is not, facts or not.

I didn't call you a "little Chicken", I referenced a characer from a kids book, Chicken Little, who has a acorn fall on his head and jumps to the conclusion that the sky is falling and runs around proclaiming such. (I assumed Chicken Little was a more widely known character, sorry).
Also, the reference to "you" was not meant as you an individual, but rather you as a part of the collective that continues to promote the narrative as a cut and dried case of racialy inspired violence.
I love this part "I never claimed that this was most definitely a racist crime or that I new all the facts..." Would that be backpeddaling or an attempt at revisionist history.
You asserted a conclusion based on incomplete reporting and what appears to be a personaly held bias. I have no idea if this was racialy motivated and I am not claiming it was or wasn't. I, like you, am without all the facts, the difference is, I asume the best while you assume the worst.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

^ So you presume this guy was just insane and would shoot any unarmed teenager near his house, and that's the "best"?

If anything I feel like my interpretation of what happened is a lot kinder than yours. I think this is a prejudiced guy who, like a LOT of white people, is kind of intimidated by black people in general, particularly males, and has the social conditioning that most of us of every race in the United States do that black people are "more dangerous." And when he went up and confronted these kids and they (my assumption) mouthed back (it's legal to play music before 11pm) he felt threatened and reacted. Do I think it COULDN'T have happened with white teenagers? No. Do I think it's equally likely he would have felt equally threatened by white teenagers sitting inside a vehicle to the point where he would shoot them? No.

And he is claiming self-defense... so his perception of 'threat' is relevant.

The alternate is to assume he's just a psychopathic nutbar and would have shot anyone who played music, in which case it begs the question of why he hasn't shot random people before. I hardly think of that as the "more positive" interpretation.

Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

Originally Posted by xbuzzerx

So do I understand your post correctly that it bothers you a lot more that someone might think a white guy going up to black kids in a car and shooting them with absolutely no physical threat might have been racially motivated than that a guy went up to some teenagers and shot them?

Given the other recent case in Florida and given its horrible law giving people the belief that this kind of behavior is "self-defense" and you have white guys initiating confrontations with black teenagers which end in "self-defense shootings", it's perfectly reasonable to believe race is involved.

Well let's see if I can decipher this. The fact that the guy shot a kid over a loud stereo is rediculous and should be dealt with. But the fact that people are saying it's racialy motivated based on nothing more than skin color is crap. To this point I've heard nothing suggesting the shooters motivation. Was it racial, was it that the guy dislikes loud music, was something said between the two that set this nut off, I don't know, but I doubt you do either, that's why I say we need the full story.
As to the view of "no phyical threat", we don't know that either. There are now reports that say Dunn claims to have seen a shotgun in the car, weather it's true or not, or weather that would constitue a "physical threat" or not will eventualy be brought to light.