I think you misunderstand me there; my point is that people, in general, would do better to work first on optimizing their lifestyle, and second on introducing new things to it.

Like, I think the only one presenting his diet so far was Sang, who has no weight issues at all.

If people here whine about being too fat and then start their day with Kellog's Frosties as a first, and a pack from Dunkin Donuts as a second breakfast, they can train their butts off and yet will never advance.

I'd say, because it's too much for most: If one has grown into the lifestyle of a glutton, he will need more than just a month to change it, and need to take the way step by step.

Nutritional supplement tend to cloud people's perception as to where they need to pay more attention.

Only if they don't do research.

It seems the argument has radically changed from "I'd rather eat whole food" to "Soft people need lifestyle changes". In regards to your first point of "I'd rather eat whole foods", I still maintain that there is no conflict between whole foods and supplements, and in fact you should be taking both. In regards to lifestyle changes, I have no sympathy for those adjusted to a poor lifestyle. Yes, it sucks making changes. That's why so few people do it. That's also why the people that actually do bust their asses stand out.

Which is why I think we must do the research for them sometimes,and avocated to fight this soft lifestyle first, since the original idea of this thread has so epically failed.

Originally Posted by Emevas

It seems the argument has radically changed from "I'd rather eat whole food" to "Soft people need lifestyle changes". In regards to your first point of "I'd rather eat whole foods", I still maintain that there is no conflict between whole foods and supplements, and in fact you should be taking both. In regards to lifestyle changes, I have no sympathy for those adjusted to a poor lifestyle. Yes, it sucks making changes. That's why so few people do it. That's also why the people that actually do bust their asses stand out.

I can agree on that. I think everyone takes nutritional supplements, at least somehow. I obviously do as well. However, I think the goal should be to live without them, instead of tailoring a diet that takes them as an integral element.

I can agree on that. I think everyone takes nutritional supplements, at least somehow. I obviously do as well. However, I think the goal should be to live without them, instead of tailoring a diet that takes them as an integral element.

I don't see why you would live without them when they're clearly beneficial.

I cannot in any way fathom your aversion to supplements here. Additionally, you are again working in extremes here. There is in fact a middle ground between "life without supplements" and "making them an integral element", and that is the ground of SUPPLEMENTATION. These supplements, as the name implies, are NOT the staple of the diet, but a supplement to it.

A fish oil pill gives you tons of fish oil with so little calories compared to eating as much fish as you would need to reach it. A scoop of protein powder is the cheapest source of protein you're going to find, and doesn't carry fat or much sugars. These are positive aspects of supplements.

Edit: And I still don't see why it has to be a first then second approach in terms of gameplan. Why not simply introduce supplementation as part of the lifestyle change? People can learn 2 thigns at once.

I gues it's more of a philosophical thing.
Whenever I contemplate my lifestyle and my nutrition,
I at first went and looked what mundane things I could change before I considered supplementation.
Only if those changes didn't work, I would go on to take supplements.

Edit: And I still don't see why it has to be a first then second approach in terms of gameplan. Why not simply introduce supplementation as part of the lifestyle change? People can learn 2 thigns at once.

For me, personally, because it hasn't worked out well. The way I did things in two steps worked best for me. Of course, others might have different results with other approaches to the topic.

I am cutting for a fight but also making a large lifestyle change. I don't intend to ever go back to the way i was eating before, just alter my diet to include more calories and workout carbs for maintenance and bulking eventually. I have a title fight booked at 66kg in 4 weeks which makes for good motivation.

In regards to fish oil supplementation; i intend to take at least 12 pills of the stuff a day until i die... its that important. If you really don't know why i can find a few articles for you. I really don't see why you'd even see this as a 'supplement', its fish fat in a pill. In my mind its no different to putting olive oil over my salad to increase my good fats.

The multi-v is less important but cheap and hits the gaps in my nutrition that i might not know are even there. Its an insurance policy, not a nutritional replacement.

The scoop of protein powder is just an easy way to make my fast meal higher protein, initially it was cheese + nuts but i wasn't getting a good enough hit of protein. I can concede that there are better but less convenient options.

Creatine is the only thing i'm taking that i even really consider a supplement and at $50 for a years supply it makes for an insanely cost effective boost to my training.

"Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
Kenny Weldon