Westgarth goes after Bieksa, however KB3 does not drop the gloves or his stick and the two are easily separated by an official without any punches thrown. It is very clear that Sestito and McGratton were the first combatants The ref's got it correct and it was an easy call to make.

Westgarth goes after Bieksa, however KB3 does not drop the gloves or his stick and the two are easily separated by an official without any punches thrown. It is very clear that Sestito and McGratton were the first combatants The ref's got it correct and it was an easy call to make.

You are correct tops I thought the initial aggression was what we looked for. They did disengageWestgarth ended up fighting laine..

Westgarth goes after Bieksa, however KB3 does not drop the gloves or his stick and the two are easily separated by an official without any punches thrown. It is very clear that Sestito and McGratton were the first combatants The ref's got it correct and it was an easy call to make.

You are correct tops I thought the initial aggression was what we looked for. They did disengageWestgarth ended up fighting laine..

That is splitting hairs at best. True Westgarth was the quickest to drop his gloves and he didn't throw a punch at Bieksa. However, Weise & Jones fought at the same time as Sestito & McGratton. Both pairs squared off & dropped the gloves immediately at 0:02. Because one pair danced for one second longer before throwing a punch is not the spirit of the line brawl rule. Go to the war room to double check who's punch connected first? The other 3 were definitely a different matter, especially Westgarth & Lain. The Sestito & Weise fights were simultaneous and immediate.

Splitting hairs isn't the point. The rules state that the initial combatants will be penalized and any further altercations during the same stoppage in play will result in ejections. The Officials picked McGratton and Sestito as the initial combatants. End of story. Why is this even an issue??

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt "

Listercat wrote:Splitting hairs isn't the point. The rules state that the initial combatants will be penalized and any further altercations during the same stoppage in play will result in ejections. The Officials picked McGratton and Sestito as the initial combatants. End of story. Why is this even an issue??

There's obviously a lot of discretion built into the rules for the refs. It wasn't my point to spark a debate here but rather to point out the absurdity of this. Two pairs of players drop their gloves at the exact same time & square off. They have now engaged in altercations according to the rules. The refs pick one as being the initial fight because a punch was thrown a second or two first? C'mon. The first altercation doesn't even require a punch to be thrown, it can be "when two players wrestle in such a manner as to make it difficult for the Linesmen to intervene and separate the combatants." ie Westgarth & Bieksa...if the refs wanted which would have benefitted the Canucks immensely. Westgarth doesn't even play the puck, the instant it's dropped he drops his gloves & grabs Bieksa. Fighting majors have been handed out for similar behaviour. This is by definition of the rules the initial "altercation." According to rule 46.7, the refs also could have waived the misconduct for Lain since Westgarth was clearly the aggressor.

The bottom line is the refs took the easy way out, as Gallagher stated. The refs could have as easily claimed Westgarth & Bieksa were the initial combatants as they could have claimed Sestito+McGratton+Weise+Jones were the initial altercations & booted everyone else. If two fights start simultaneously the rules don't state refs must pick only one. The rules are there to deter others from fighting after the fact, esp goalies. Another example of a grey area in the NHL rules where the refs "picked" someone (like you said) which, with all the variations of the rules, leads to more inconsistency from game to game & ref to ref.

So this is indeed splitting hairs, over mere seconds in fact.

I just find the chasm between the accepted violence and punishable violence in the NHL hypocritical at best.

Strangelove wrote:^^^ Good point Clam, the refs did not manage the situation well, Kerry Fraser wrote about a better way.

I mentioned something similar to Fraser earlier. The refs aren't w/o blame, everyone & their dog knew what was going to transpire. They could have been firmer w/ the coaches instead of just letting it take it's course. Refs have that ability at their disposal if they choose to use it.

Westgarth goes after Bieksa, however KB3 does not drop the gloves or his stick and the two are easily separated by an official without any punches thrown. It is very clear that Sestito and McGratton were the first combatants The ref's got it correct and it was an easy call to make.

You are correct tops I thought the initial aggression was what we looked for. They did disengageWestgarth ended up fighting laine..

Yeah, watching it live I saw Sestito and McGratton chucking them first. But then the top down replay of the opening faceoff showed Westgarth's gloves hitting the ice at virtually the same time as the puck, and he was going after Juice before the puck had even been swept back towards our blueline. That replay is what I was going by because I figured nobody could have gotten the gloves off faster than that, and in that camera angle the pair are out of sight almost immediately.....in the replay I wasn't even thinking about the fact that Bieksa had switched with Lain.....and like you Rats I just assumed it was the first aggression in the line brawl where gloves hit the ice, regardless of who ended up paired off with who at the end of it.

ClamRussel wrote:"when two players wrestle in such a manner as to make it difficult for the Linesmen to intervene and separate the combatants." ie Westgarth & Bieksa...

But they were easily separated. Again what the hell are you watching?

Bieksa backed out, he and Westgarth easily separated by the officials, Sestito and McGratten drop gloves and start throwing punches, Weiss and Jones drop gloves and skate around each other. Garrison and Butler go at it,then Bieksa goes to Smid and starts fighting and Lain goes to Westgarth and starts fighting.

Keep back peddling. You have gone from "all fights started simultaneously", to "two fights started simultaneously", "one guy started pushing before anyone else."

ClamRussel wrote: I just find the chasm between the accepted violence and punishable violence in the NHL hypocritical at best.

I find the chasm between your ears more hypocritical.

The refs got the call on the ice correct, eight players were ejected from the game and they picked the correct eight players. The other two combatants were given 5 for fighting an additional 10. Westgarth got an additional two for roughing Bieksa (because that is all he did to Bieksa).

There was no tolerance of violence in this case. It was handled exactly as set out by the rules.

Sure there are many things the refs could have done to diffuse the situation, as Fraser noted, however you are ignoring the preface to Fraser's comments. The ref's job is reactionary.

Would a heavily lopsided penalty call done more to diffuse the situation or inflame it?

Citing Gallagher to back your argument ........... all I need to know.

Last edited by Topper on Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.