In today's Excepts from Player's Handbook 3, we get a glimpse at the Hybrid rules for the Battlemind!

"When you start with a sturdy mind and body, you can add almost any other set of talents to achieve a strong whole—or so you like to tell yourself. What led you to add another class’s abilities to your own mental and physical perfection as a battlemind? Do you secretly believe your psionic talents to be unreliable, at least compared to a strong blade or a reliance on other forms of magic? Or have you only recently discovered your psionic capabilities?"

Talk about this PH3 preview here.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

I think that these guys will end up better as Hybrid Defenders than that will as Defenders on their own. At first I thought it really sucked that they had to choose between Blurred Step and Mind Spike, but combined with the Hybrid versions of other Defender features, it might not be so bad...

Also, for a second there I had a scare that they didn't include the marking feature in the Hybrid version of this class at all, but then I realized that it's included under the Psionic Defender class feature.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM
Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha
Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.
Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM
Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha
Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.
Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!

On an unrelated note, what in the heck is going on with his sword/hand melding together and being all crystalline? Is that a feature of this class? Certainly not a racial thing here, considering that looks like a regular Dwarf to me.

I think that these guys will end up better as Hybrid Defenders than that will as Defenders on their own. At first I thought it really sucked that they had to choose between Blurred Step and Mind Spike, but combined with the Hybrid versions of other Defender features, it might not be so bad...

A quintillion times this.

Fighter: Blurred Step doesn't conflict with Combat Challenge (though you can do one or the other on a shift), and Mind Spike is a excellent alternative Immediate. Take your pick... I'd go with Mind Spike. Hybrid Talent a Combat Specialty for additional wackiness. Think about this... Hybrizing Battlemind makes Fighters better defenders. That should give some pause.

Warden: Minor to mark at a distance, and free to mark an adjacent. I would suggest Blurred Step, as that may get you in better Fury/Grasp distance. Hybrid Talent some armor or protective features.

Paladin: Marking mechanics interfere, but with Mind Spike, you could theoretically burn them when they attack, and again if they do damage. Or... with Blurred Step you could stick with them to ease engagement. Too bad you can't Ardent Vow.

Swordmage: Not so great, but Blurred Step is fun. It also allows you to mark more people. Hybrid Talent some AC.

At first I thought it really sucked that they had to choose between Blurred Step and Mind Spike,

They don't have to choose, one's an Opertunity Action, one's an Imidiate Reaction. So if they shift, you can follow, if they attack anyone else, you can hurt them. It does make it difficult to guard from more then 1, and you'll have problems with skirmishers, but it works.

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

I wanted to step in and just say I liked the way they made this a double preview for nonsubscribers who hadn't yet seen hybrid.

As to the article itself, the hybrid battlemind does look like a good combination to add some psionic defense. Judging from the way other hybrids have worked previously, i'm thinking multiclass psionic characters gain a similar, if not the same, progression of power points as hybrids.

I think that these guys will end up better as Hybrid Defenders than that will as Defenders on their own. At first I thought it really sucked that they had to choose between Blurred Step and Mind Spike, but combined with the Hybrid versions of other Defender features, it might not be so bad...

A quintillion times this.

Fighter: Blurred Step doesn't conflict with Combat Challenge (though you can do one or the other on a shift), and Mind Spike is a excellent alternative Immediate. Take your pick... I'd go with Mind Spike. Hybrid Talent a Combat Specialty for additional wackiness. Think about this... Hybrizing Battlemind makes Fighters better defenders. That should give some pause.

Warden: Minor to mark at a distance, and free to mark an adjacent. I would suggest Blurred Step, as that may get you in better Fury/Grasp distance. Hybrid Talent some armor or protective features.

Paladin: Marking mechanics interfere, but with Mind Spike, you could theoretically burn them when they attack, and again if they do damage. Or... with Blurred Step you could stick with them to ease engagement. Too bad you can't Ardent Vow.

Swordmage: Not so great, but Blurred Step is fun. It also allows you to mark more people. Hybrid Talent some AC.

I'm new to hybrid characters and I was curious about something. You say that Blurred Step doesn't conflict with Combat Challenge, but don't each of them require a different mark? I assumed that if you played a hybrid Fighter/Battlemind you would only be able to have the Fighter mark or the Battlemind mark since a target can only have a single mark at a time. Wouldn't this mean that you could only do one or the other, not both?

My same question applies to the Paladin example. How would you be able to apply the damage from both marks if you can only have one mark per creature? It wouldn't really matter if the marking mechanics interfere with each other because there's no reason to do both in the same round anyway.

I guess I'm just confused because your thoughts on the combinations seem to imply that you can have the mark from both classes going concurrently. I could be misunderstanding, though.

Well, Fighters, Wardens, and Battleminds work with generic marks. That is, any power or class feature that confers a -2 penalty on an enemy that doesn't attack them. A mark from any source can be capitalized on by these three classes.

Swordmages and Paladins both a have a specific marking power that is different from a generic mark. Their punishment mechanism is based off of the specific power they used to mark the enemy (whether it is Divine Challenge or an Aegis Power).

Well, Fighters, Wardens, and Battleminds work with generic marks. That is, any power or class feature that confers a -2 penalty on an enemy that doesn't attack them. A mark from any source can be capitalized on by these three classes.

Swordmages and Paladins both a have a specific marking power that is different from a generic mark. Their punishment mechanism is based off of the specific power they used to mark the enemy (whether it is Divine Challenge or an Aegis Power).

But the PH still states that an enemy can be subject to only one mark at a time. I don't know if Hybrid rules change this to allow multiple marks, provided they're from the same player. If I were to mark a character by attacking them with a Fighter power, I would assume if I then used a minor action to mark them with Battlemind's Demand that I would lose the option to make an attack if they shift, since that second mark would override the first.

I guess I may have misinterpreted the post I originally quoted, but I don't see how the rules would allow a character to have a mark on an enemy that would allow him the option to make the Fighter basic attack or use Mind Spike in the same round. It seems to me that by the standard rules you get one or the other in any particular round.

Your mistake is thinking that the Marks are different things. Any time you use a Marking ability, you are applying the "Marked" condition, which your other powers then capitalise on. The single-mark rule applies when you have multiple characters trying to mark a target.

Your mistake is thinking that the Marks are different things. Any time you use a Marking ability, you are applying the "Marked" condition, which your other powers then capitalise on. The single-mark rule applies when you have multiple characters trying to mark a target.

This makes sense. If that's the case though it stands to reason that a Hybrid Fighter/Paladin would only have to mark using one of his abilities in order to gain the benefits of both the Fighter's and the Paladin's mark. If that's the case, what did Yaldabaoth mean about "intefering mechanics?" If you only have to apply a mark once from any source, where is the interference?

Your mistake is thinking that the Marks are different things. Any time you use a Marking ability, you are applying the "Marked" condition, which your other powers then capitalise on. The single-mark rule applies when you have multiple characters trying to mark a target.

This makes sense. If that's the case though it stands to reason that a Hybrid Fighter/Paladin would only have to mark using one of his abilities in order to gain the benefits of both the Fighter's and the Paladin's mark. If that's the case, what did Yaldabaoth mean about "intefering mechanics?" If you only have to apply a mark once from any source, where is the interference?

Paladins|Fighter don't get divine sanction damage from a off figher marks. They can use their feature against an adjacent enemy marked by divine saction.

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

[...] If that's the case though it stands to reason that a Hybrid Fighter/Paladin would only have to mark using one of his abilities in order to gain the benefits of both the Fighter's and the Paladin's mark. If that's the case, what did Yaldabaoth mean about "intefering mechanics?" If you only have to apply a mark once from any source, where is the interference?

Forgive the pile of quoting, but please review the following insights:

Well, Fighters, Wardens, and Battleminds work with generic marks. That is, any power or class feature that confers a -2 penalty on an enemy that doesn't attack them. A mark from any source can be capitalized on by these three classes.

Swordmages and Paladins both a have a specific marking power that is different from a generic mark. Their punishment mechanism is based off of the specific power they used to mark the enemy (whether it is Divine Challenge or an Aegis Power).

There are a couple things that go on with Battlemind|Paladins. Because the Paladin Divine Challenge (& Sanction) mark/effect combo is qualitatively different than the generic Demand mark, the Demand mark is depreciated. You can do Battlemind stuff with the Paladin mark, but not so much the other way 'round. Also, both the DC & BD marking mechanics use minor actions. Burning two minor actions a round just to mark a couple people is not efficient, especially when one of the marks is "better" than the other.

To go back to your Battlemind|Fighter comment, because the marks from Battleminds and Fighters are generic, you can use all your whammy powers on anyone you mark. The real reason Blurred Step and Combat Challenge don't interfere is because one is an Opportunity Action and one is Immediate. Burning one doesnt mean you can't do the other sometime. Mind Spike and Combat Challenge _do_ interfere, but you're not stuck with only one or the other... you can chose whichever fits or save your Immediate for later.

Thanks. This makes a lot more sense. When I originally read your post I was focused completely on applying both marks to the same target. I had assumed you were talking about using two minor actions to apply Divine Challenge and Battlemind Demand when you referred to interference. My first thought was that marks were generic, so when I saw that my misinterpretation caused me to think "why would you ever need to use those two minor actions since you can just use Divine Challenge and get the benefits of both?" Now it makes more sense.

My original plan for a Hybrid Battlemind/Fighter was to use the Combat Challenge to eliminate the Battlemind shift/charge weakness. If they try to shift away to attack one of my allies they provoke that attack, and if they stick around and try to hit another I can then choose to use Mind Spike to deal damage. From the sound of it, this combo works ok, correct?

Thanks again for the help. I literally first read the Hybrid rules yesterday afternoon and I think I tried to take in too much information at once. I don't really focus on optimizing so I had a lot of rules swimming around in my head.

My original plan for a Hybrid Battlemind/Fighter was to use the Combat Challenge to eliminate the Battlemind shift/charge weakness. If they try to shift away to attack one of my allies they provoke that attack, and if they stick around and try to hit another I can then choose to use Mind Spike to deal damage. From the sound of it, this combo works ok, correct?

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

My original plan for a Hybrid Battlemind/Fighter was to use the Combat Challenge to eliminate the Battlemind shift/charge weakness. If they try to shift away to attack one of my allies they provoke that attack, and if they stick around and try to hit another I can then choose to use Mind Spike to deal damage. From the sound of it, this combo works ok, correct?

Yup.

The choice in your example for when the creep attacks your friend is not straightforward, though. You could CC or MS. Do you think you could drop 'em with Combat Challenge? It could save your friend some grief. On the other hand, you may deal more damage with Mind Spike, and you can wait to see if they miss (and thus conserve your Immediate action). Back to the first hand, if you think you can't drop 'em, but they will likely miss, you will at least give the potential for some hurt with Combat Challenge instead of probable zilch with Mind Spike.