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I would like to dedicate this Topic to practical Chas ET aural tuning. In my hope, this may eventually help to gain Chas beating whole.

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. It is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach, what may substitute a personal directioning of mine for sharing Chas Theory's Temperament.

Please, do not expect regular posting. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail. In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.

Best regards, a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

It sounds like a professional quality tuning to me, Alfredo but frankly I sorely miss the color in temperament I am used to hearing with my tunings. The octave stretching is quite beautiful however and the overall sound is very clear.

.....................say......................I...............want...................to...........choose....................athe correct way is tuning a preparatory beats and frequencies curve...................that...................leads.........................to.......................Chas......................beating..........................whole

From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster beat rate progression.

So, I never go directly for the Chas form. I’m not the one that gains it, I only determine the premises. Chas EB-ET temperament can only be the result of correct evaluation of all the factors mentioned below. This factors call for an accentuated stretch for all intervals, what I refer to as Chas Preparatory Tuning.

The many tons of mixtured forces in the piano, how the strings tension and load increase (or decrease) will effect the whole structure, together with the strings three-lengths adjustements. So, before and during my tuning, I’m there to evaluate the settling down parabola.

It is indeed like calculating an arrow’s trajectory, in consideration of wind and gravity.

a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

Why do you feel the need to use flowery analogy in speaking with experienced professional tuners?

Quote

So, I never go directly for the Chas form.

Specifically, why not?

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

Why do you feel the need to use flowery analogy in speaking with experienced professional tuners?

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail.

In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.

...........................(- (- (- (- (- (- (+) -) -) -) -) -) -)

Tuning a piano may be compared to forging a bow.

A piano reacts quite like a stringed bow and, like a bow, a piano must have its correct "at rest" tension.

The piano's "at rest" tension can return our favorite tuning form. Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics. Pins may then be compared to arrows.

So, I never go directly for the Chas form. I’m not the one that gains it, I only determine the premises. Chas EB-ET temperament can only be the result of correct evaluation of all the factors mentioned below. This factors call for an accentuated stretch for all intervals, what I refer to as Chas Preparatory Tuning.

The many tons of mixtured forces in the piano, how the strings tension and load increase (or decrease) will effect the whole structure, together with the strings three-lengths adjustements. So, before and during my tuning, I’m there to evaluate the settling down parabola.

It is indeed like calculating an arrow’s trajectory, in consideration of wind and gravity.

a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

Is it acceptable, then, to provide feedback stating that no progress is possible, given the lack of information forthcoming from you?

I repeat:

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

Will you be posting here corrected instructions for your temperament, as has been requested before?

About bowing, or natural settling, yes a grand, preferently without plate bushing, could settle in a natural way hence no active pin setting from the tuner, the pianist do the job, but I learned to rely not so much to that, If you think of that.

Last edited by Kamin; 12/17/0901:50 AM.

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

I did link my reply to you, it is still there. I apologize for the forthcoming amount of informations, it is mainly relative to my time disposal.

This thread is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach. It is not intended for discussing different approaches, tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency.

Please mind, nobody here is forced into any kind of belief. I’m simply talking about my personal experience, one of many possible routes, and about my favorite tuning temperament, in my personal way. Nobody then is forced into this reading and, if it was not satisfactory, this whole thread may as well be ignored.

Anybody may have sincere reasons for sharing Theories, approaches, tunings, techniques, linguistic styles and/or forms of communication. If anyone wanted to talk about their own issues, or deepen a subject, I kindly ask he/she either to choose the most appropriate Topic (there is plenty) or to start his/her own new Topic.

When I modify the strings load on the bridge and the soundboard, I consider the elasticity factor. The bridge and the sounboard can only adjust then under a correct distribution of the new load, only then I get my favorite tuning.

Maybe you are talking about what is called a "pitch raise." A piano is below pitch, so it is roughly tuned a little above pitch but ends up about on pitch. Then it is given a finer tuning. Of course some parts of the piano may be lower than others and the "a little above pitch" might be more like "quite a bit above pitch."

Is this what you are doing when a piano is below pitch, or do you need to do this regardless of where the piano's pitch starts at? I mean, if there is a piano that you tune regularly, do you do this preparation tuning every time?

Jeff DeutschlePart-Time TunerWho taught the first chicken how to peck?

Even when I tune a piano very close to my favorite sound whole, say 99%, I never tune Chas on mid-strings, I’ll go for a preparatory tuning, as described above. I always consider the adjustments that will take place, possibly the infinitesimal ones too, and I do everything I can for these adjustments to take place.

If that piano was very very close to my favorite order, say 99.999%, on mid-strings it would (more or less) keep the preparatory tuning I talk about, then it may be a question of unisons. In any case, only in peculiar circumstances do I accept to “repair” my tuning, normally I restart from the beginning.

A piano may look like an ordinary piece of furniture, but in fact, due to the tons of tension it holds, we know that a piano is more an instrument that is constantly “in progress”.

My favorite sound beating-whole can only be the result of a dynamic factor, the piano structure’s adjustments. I determine the premises, and act, so that Chas may result from these premises through the piano’s settling down. Only then can I think of it as a temporary stable condition.

My tuning is causing these factors, determining the premises and driving the adjustments, expecting and wanting them in one, acting and waiting for them to release eventually my favorite sound whole.

Pianos, I only talk to them, with a new one I ask gently if I'll have trouble with him and generally he say no and stay quiet (I've seen that in a movie where the guy comes to jail, the green line, it works).

Sometime only if I put my case near the piano it sound better !

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Nope, once one step on my toe, but as I wear security shoes I smiled and took my hammer, the piano was only badly in need of tuning (that makes them nervous)

Is the grand piano feminine, in English ? (never thought of that).Here the grand is pretty much masculine, as the vertical.Special mention to the factory joke about the 3 lid props BTW, (we are in the working class, for most, don't forget even if mention of those terms disappear from common language some years ago)

Last edited by Kamin; 12/20/0907:13 AM.

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

I understand that measurements of frequencies of single strings have been compared to a tuned unison with all three strings sounding together. A drop in pitch has been observed. But since a higher partial is measured, I am not sure if it is the fundamental frequency that changes or if it is the effective iH of the strings that change and therefore the frequency of the partials and the beat rate of the tuning intervals. This effect is an argument for tuning unisons as you go and for adding a bit of extra stretch when tuning an octave so that when the other strings of the unison are tuned the pitch will settle where it belongs.

Perhaps this is what you are experiencing rather than the piano’s tension equalizing.

In regards to tension equalization, something I have noticed when doing a preparatory pitch raise is that too much of an overshoot does not seem to matter as much as even a little bit of undershoot.

Jeff DeutschlePart-Time TunerWho taught the first chicken how to peck?

These contents were posted on Chas Topic on 5/23/09 (somehow corrected (thanks to Jeff Deutschle)):

I decided to go further my tuning sequence mainly for two reasons: firstly, because hundreds of interesting pages have and are been written about the most original and reasonable sequencies, none of them leading to a solid, reliable theory that could deal with inharmonicity, so leaving tuners in a state of uncertainty. A sequence will always be debatable, a mathematical evidence will not. Secondly, because I do not think the sequence I use is any special, nor time saving or more confortable for listening to or comparing beats. In my opinion, any sequence can eventually work, as long as you clearly know what you can be aiming at and why, and how and where you’ll get it.

The only novelty may regard the overall approach and the interrelation of SBI, i.e. 8ves, 4ths and 5ths beat curves, the research's results that opened to Chas. Chromatic 4ths are not only similar, going up the scale they get tiny little wider. Chromatic 5ths are not only similar, from low notes they first stretch down and get tiny little narrower, in between G3 and G4 they invert and stretch up toward there pure ratio (tuning centre strings), going tiny less and less narrow.

An italian collegue pointed out that SBI are much harder to evaluate than RBI. True, I would also agree in saying that RBI give you the general idea of what you are doing in the shortest lapse of time. Nevertheless in my opinion, anyone truly wanting to achieve excellence in aural tuning, would have to master the maximum control of any interval’s beat. A matter of wrist, both in the figurative and the anathomic sense, and a matter of rhythmics. In my case, SBI control took me to the 7th decimal point (section 4.5).

So what happened was, first I empirically calculated the univocal SBI and RBI chromatic proportional order, there I could notice an astonishing euphonic set that would prove how inharmonicity can be made tractable. Then I simply elaborated its essence, to finally construct an updated and comprehensive ET model, reliable in both theoretical and practical terms. Since I know all this comes from practice, simplicity and utmost exactitude, I’m disclosing Chas model with a serene soul.

In tuning, as I have learned, each sound is only temporarly tuned, since every single added sound may indicate the need to correct previously tuned notes. At the end, it is the Chas form that releases me from all doubts and only then I am absolutely certain to have done my best. Anyway, here are a few suggestions introducing and commenting the sequence.

A - do not take this tuning sequence as a must - B - octaves, 4ths and 5ths shape the skelethon of the entire set -C - start tuning only middle string, mute from C6 down to strings crossing, dampers up - D - tuning single strings and unisons, get always the same moderate sound intensity -E - octaves have a low beat-threshold and a high beat-threshold, this helps me when tuning octaves in middle register - F - possibly, stabilize middle string frequencies by playing a Forte sound -G – do not tire your ears, by playing louder you will not hear better nor more -

sharp or flat is referred to the note we are ment to tune. The already-tuned note is in bracket -

Tune as you know, middle string first, then unison previous note’s right string (C6), next left (C#6), tune next middle (D6), unison previous right (C#6), next left, tune next middle and so on, checking also M17ths progression. While tuning, do not stop evaluating strings and sound-board rigidity/elasticity, so you’ll be able to conveniently tune centre strings.