so could U repeat the answer plz??bcoz few days ago some of our posts have been deleted,moreover could U explain this to me about what does this mean gospel of mark ch 16 v 17-18-if they drink the deadly thing they shall not b hurt.

Mythical inventions? I think the Muslim version of the Kaaba corresponding to the centre of the universe and the ridiculous idea of al-Hajaru-l-Aswad falling from heaven to show Adam where to build an alter is the ridiculous mythical invention.

Your claim of "mecca being center of universe" is from some Egyptian scientist who did some research recently. There are no Islamic Text (i.e quran/hadith) about this.

It is proven that the hajar al aswad is not a piece of rock from this world. It is not mentioned in the Quran but in the hadith which say that it was bigger and white ... when it entered this world it became smaller and black! NASA confirms its not from earth and mentions its a meteorite. So again, it is a fact that the hajar aswad is not from this earth, accurately decribed in the hadith 1400 yrs ago. What myths?

The origins of Haj? Yes, its origins are about superstitious pagans walking in seven circles around a meteorite.

My friend, with all due respect, you have a lot to learn about Islam before you speak against it with your claims. In fact, you have no proofs for that claim ... First of all, circuambulation has nothing to do with hajr aswad excpt it mark the beginning and its end. In Islam, hajj rites precede the pagan era and goes all the way to Abraham and Ismael after they built the kaba, peace be upon them. After time, people deviated and joins idols along in worship and modified the rituals ... The trend of deviation is observable among humans in general, because they tend to break away from origins ... like what happend to Christians.

So, you will try to find some kind of claim that Kaaba wasnt built by Abraham .. let me tell you that the Quran is the Word of God and the truth! Even in the bible, we can have some hints of that ... I can expand on that upon request

Up to no good.? What is the no good? To challenge superstition or to search for truth.

its no good when you bring arguments from ignorance, acting as if what you have is true. I call you to rectify your intentions and not to deceive yourself by seeking any and every bit of info against Islam from missionary ET AL websites. Rather, if you dont know, just say so I'm sure you will obtain the correct info about Islam, after which, you can decide what to do with it yourself.

Hello Caringheart and everyone! Thx for the welcome, and yes I am actually new,

You do you realize that there is absolutely zero archeological evidence to support the stories told regarding Abraham and the Ka'aba?

What kind of evidence are you looking for? Given its place in the desert, where few brave ones treaded ... yes, its hard to find evidence. It has been an Isolated place.

Nevertheless, it has been documented:

"Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia."And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians." [Translated by C H Oldfather, Diodorus Of Sicily, Volume II, William Heinemann Ltd., London & Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, MCMXXXV, p. 217.]

G E von Grunebaum says: "Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary." [G E Von Grunebaum, Classical Islam: A History 600-1258, George Allen & Unwin Limited, 1970, p. 19]

So we know its older than the Christian era. Apart from this, The Quran which doesnt contain mistakes relate this. The bible also, although afflicted by some changes does a good job relating this place:

Refer to Genesis 21:17-22. V21 say he lived in paran andthen read Isiah 42 ... when you reach verse 11, you'll see that this is the place where Ishmael's decendents livebut the best description of paran is in Deu 33:2 which is south of Sinai

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/search=Isaiah+42&version=NIV

Just a side point, if you are so interested in archeology .. you might want to look into why the bible descrbes a worldwide flood when archaeological facts say its local! a mistake which the Quran doesnt have.

To conclude my response to you caringheart, let me just say that the Kaaba is a mosque, that Muslims pray TOWARDS, and NOT to, and Islam declares worship is for the One true God ... my God and Yours ... HE is Allah

Greetings AbuKhalid,

The stories in the Bible are well backed up by archaelogical evidence confirming people and places, whereas there is no archaeological evidence to back up the stories of the quran connecting Abraham with Mecca. That's all I'm saying.

There is no question that Mecca was a place of pilgrimage... for the pagans.

As regards the flood story... every religious tradition has a flood story, so how do you account for this? I say, either one of two things...1. There was a worldwide flood (not the one I adhere to)2. People all across the globe originated from a common place (consistent with the Bible) and then spread out to the world therefore carrying the flood story with them. Bible fallacy? I don't know. It is just possible that people used the only words that they had... and to them perhaps their 'whole world' was flooded so that is how it came to be recorded. I can see how this story would have been one that was embellished. Have you ever really believed that every animal of the earth could be collected into a single ark for 40+ days and nights, without seeking to kill one another? Lions with giraffes and such? And what about water animals, like Hippo's and alligators? It is quite conceivable that God only warned that there would be a great flood and for Noah to build an ark and take into it everything that he would need to sustain his family. This amazing story of survival would easily have grown into a tall tale by years of its re-telling by oral tradition, would it not?

I don't know that anything has ever been able to be proven one way or the other, as it goes, regarding the flood. I'm pretty sure it is still an open question.

I do believe that the Ka'aba is today, a mosque, that muslims pray towards. I do not believe that Abraham ever had anything to do with it though.

at experential God has no spirits!!!!at least I don't defame any religion in fact I show U the truth y don't U answer my query regarding book of genesis initial chapters??moreover Allah forbids us to defame other religions in ch 6 v 108,hence at least I will not do this.

What do you mean God has no spirits? I don’t know what you are talking about.

You say you show me the truth. No Naba - I show you the truth.

I thought I answered your question about Genesis the initial chapters. If you repeat your question I will be happy to discuss this with you.

This forum is for people from different religions to discuss. If you think my views on the truth are defaming your religion – too bad. I have made some very good points and asked some good questions. I have tried to be polite. When Muslims cannot answer they become like babies and say “you are defaming Islam”.

The inability of Muslims to discuss logically and not emotionally is part of the reason the Muslim world is still in the primitive ages.

at experential God has no spirits!!!!at least I don't defame any religion in fact I show U the truth y don't U answer my query regarding book of genesis initial chapters??moreover Allah forbids us to defame other religions in ch 6 v 108,hence at least I will not do this.]]>
Tue, 20 Aug 2013 07:29:35 +0000http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=177771#177771The Haj is shirk ? : Hello Caringheart and everyone!...http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=177765#177765
Author: AbuKhalidSubject: 25196Posted: 20 August 2013 at 12:46am

Hello Caringheart and everyone! Thx for the welcome, and yes I am actually new,

You do you realize that there is absolutely zero archeological evidence to support the stories told regarding Abraham and the Ka'aba?

What kind of evidence are you looking for? Given its place in the desert, where few brave ones treaded ... yes, its hard to find evidence. It has been an Isolated place.

Nevertheless, it has been documented:

"Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia."And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians." [Translated by C H Oldfather, Diodorus Of Sicily, Volume II, William Heinemann Ltd., London & Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, MCMXXXV, p. 217.]

G E von Grunebaum says: "Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary." [G E Von Grunebaum, Classical Islam: A History 600-1258, George Allen & Unwin Limited, 1970, p. 19]

So we know its older than the Christian era. Apart from this, The Quran which doesnt contain mistakes relate this. The bible also, although afflicted by some changes does a good job relating this place:

Refer to Genesis 21:17-22. V21 say he lived in paran and
then read Isiah 42 ... when you reach verse 11, you'll see that this is the place where Ishmael's decendents live
but the best description of paran is in Deu 33:2 which is south of Sinai

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/search=Isaiah+42&version=NIV

Just a side point, if you are so interested in archeology .. you might want to look into why the bible descrbes a worldwide flood when archaeological facts say its local! a mistake which the Quran doesnt have.

To conclude my response to you caringheart, let me just say that the Kaaba is a mosque, that Muslims pray TOWARDS, and NOT to, and Islam declares worship is for the One true God ... my God and Yours ... HE is Allah]]>
Tue, 20 Aug 2013 00:46:23 +0000http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=177765#177765The Haj is shirk ? : Originally posted by AbuKhalidExperiental,...http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=177761#177761
Author: ExperientialSubject: 25196Posted: 20 August 2013 at 12:02am

Originally posted by AbuKhalid

Experiental, when will you honestly research about Islam? no need to be deceptive in your approach ... these questions are mythical inventions and propagated by missionaries to catch the uneducated Muslims. They have been refuted

So you want to know why many rites in hajj are similar to pagans? If so, I have HW for you ... plz answer these questions below:

First of all, do you know the origins of hajj? And second, do you know the purpose of the blackstone? its no regular stone. Like the ka'ba, its revered but not worshipped. So do you know its origins??

btw, tell your missionary anti islamic websites to get their facts straight, theyre teaching you the wrong things to ask muslims ... sorry, but only someone up to no good asks such questions. ANd its so silly because no Muslims have the beliefs about the claims u r making.

Hello Abu Kalid and welcome to the forum.

Mythical inventions? I think the Muslim version of the Kaaba corresponding to the centre of the universe and the ridiculous idea of al-Hajaru-l-Aswad falling from heaven to show Adam where to build an alter is the ridiculous mythical invention.

If they have been refuted then lets hear it. I havnt heard anyone able to refute it.

The origins of Haj? Yes, its origins are about superstitious pagans walking in seven circles around a meteorite. A rock, a piece of space junk. That’s all. And now Muslims follow the same ridiculous pagan mythical invention.

Up to no good.? What is the no good? To challenge superstition or to search for truth.

Experiental, when will you honestly research about Islam? no need to be deceptive in your approach ... these questions are mythical inventions and propagated by missionaries to catch the uneducated Muslims. They have been refuted

So you want to know why many rites in hajj are similar to pagans? If so, I have HW for you ... plz answer these questions below:

First of all, do you know the origins of hajj?And second, do you know the purpose of the blackstone? its no regular stone. Like the ka'ba, its revered but not worshipped. So do you know its origins??

btw, tell your missionary anti islamic websites to get their facts straight, theyre teaching you the wrong things to ask muslims ... sorry, but only someone up to no good asks such questions. ANd its so silly because no Muslims have the beliefs about the claims u r making.

Greetings AnuKhalid,(and welcome, you appear to be new, or to me you are new anyway.)

You do you realize that there is absolutely zero archeological evidence to support the stories told regarding Abraham and the Ka'aba?

Experiental, when will you honestly research about Islam? no need to be deceptive in your approach ... these questions are mythical inventions and propagated by missionaries to catch the uneducated Muslims. They have been refuted

So you want to know why many rites in hajj are similar to pagans? If so, I have HW for you ... plz answer these questions below:

First of all, do you know the origins of hajj?
And second, do you know the purpose of the blackstone? its no regular stone. Like the ka'ba, its revered but not worshipped. So do you know its origins??

btw, tell your missionary anti islamic websites to get their facts straight, theyre teaching you the wrong things to ask muslims ... sorry, but only someone up to no good asks such questions. ANd its so silly because no Muslims have the beliefs about the claims u r making.

at experential,first of All tell me on what basis U say God can rest?,in the book of isiah ch 40 v 28-it is mentioned God is neither weary nor rested,it seems U R not well versed with ur own scriptures,Kaaba is the holy place,don't try to hurt sentiments by saying what U have mentioned in ur post,its a need of every Muslim to visit kaaba,its a desire of every Muslim to die near kaaba,if U don't like kaaba fine but at least don't disrespect it.Quran says Allah doesn't need rest in ch 2 v 255,Allah says in ch 6 v 108-Don't defame the other religions because in ignorance their followers will curse Allah.so we R not disrespecting ur religion in fact I m trying to show the truth from ur scriptures,eg regarding resting of God.

Hello Naba

When I say Gods Spirit rested on the TempleNaba I do not mean that God rested, sleptor relaxed. What I mean is that Gods Spirit settled or hovered around the Temple.

I am not out to hurt sentiments Naba. I am interested in truth. If the truth hurts you that is unfortunate.

Muslims defame other religions all the time Naba. I have seen Christianity defamed on this web site often.

This is an inter faith dialogue forum. What does that mean? It means people of different faiths will have different opinions. Or are you just wanting everyone of different religions to agree with you? Because that will not happen. If you cannot accept that, then perhaps you should not be posting here on an inter faith forum.

If you want to agree to disagree and end the discussion then I am fine with that.

at experential,first of All tell me on what basis U say God can rest?,in the book of isiah ch 40 v 28-it is mentioned God is neither weary nor rested,it seems U R not well versed with ur own scriptures,Kaaba is the holy place,don't try to hurt sentiments by saying what U have mentioned in ur post,its a need of every Muslim to visit kaaba,its a desire of every Muslim to die near kaaba,if U don't like kaaba fine but at least don't disrespect it.Quran says Allah doesn't need rest in ch 2 v 255,Allah says in ch 6 v 108-Don't defame the other religions because in ignorance their followers will curse Allah.so we R not disrespecting ur religion in fact I m trying to show the truth from ur scriptures,eg regarding resting of God.]]>
Sat, 17 Aug 2013 07:38:35 +0000http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=177704#177704The Haj is shirk ? : Originally posted by submitterKaabah...http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=177691#177691
Author: ExperientialSubject: 25196Posted: 16 August 2013 at 10:13pm

Originally posted by submitter

Kaabah being house of demons or pagan rock is your opinion and others; as unbelievers. But it is unfair to make such judgement as 'Temple in Jerusalem' too was the house of pagan worshipping in the past.

~~ The tradition of Ishmaelites relying upon well of Zamzam in the city of Mecca is well known among the Jews living in Arabia for centuries.

Rabbi Abraham Ibn Ezra the great Jewish sage identifies the well mentioned by Hagar in Genesis 16:14 with Zimum (or in other versions, Zimzum), "where the Arabs hold an annual festival. This is Zamzam near Mecca.

"Genesis 16:14 "She called the well Be'er Lachai Roi It is between Kadesh and Bered."

This well is located approximately 20m east of the Kaaba (from today'ss measurement) and indeed it was the source of life for both Ishmael and Hagar before.

There is also ancient Samaritan Jews book (Asatir) in 3rd century BC having the tradition that Ishmael (pbuh) and his son built Bakkah several years after the death of Abraham (pbuh).

Regarding the Kaabah being house of demons. At times the Israelites fell backwards to paganism and worshiped Ashtoreth poles and sacred rocks like Al-Ħajaru l-Aswad. However you are not correct in saying that the Jewish Temple was ever used by the Jews for pagan worship.

What does Ishmaelite mean ? History is not clear who the Ishmaelites are.

The Torah documents Abrahams travels, and it is clear Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Isaac and Ishmael did not travel west from Babylon through the deserts to Mecca.

Abraham traveled from Babylon, north west up the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys to Mari, Paddan-Aram, Haram and then south down the Mediterranean coast to Israel.

They did not go to Mecca.

Also the Torah is clear that Ishmael settled in Paran and married an Egyptian from whom he had twelve sons: Genesis 21:13-21

The Torah locates Paran near Israel (Canaan) and Egypt, south of Judah and also tells us where Ishmael's sons settled. Which was not Mecca.

Genesis 25:12-18.

The Torah was written 2000 years before the Quran so because of this the Torah is more reliable than the Quran.

The discussion about Ishmael is pointless any way considering he was the Son of Hagar the slave woman. Gods purpose was not with the slave woman but with the free woman Sarah and her son Isaac.

Genesis 16:12 says Ishmael will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

Here is the verse from Genesis 16:14 you are referring to. It is a well known fact that the cities of Kadesh and Bered are in Israel. No where near Mecca.

I thought Muslims believe it was Abraham and his son Ishmael who rebuilt the Kaaba, not Ishmael and his son? Either Muslims or the writer of The Book of Asatir are confused.

The Book of Genesis which talks about Abraham, is 1100 years older than The Book of Asatir and Genesis does not say Ishmael built the Kaaba so why should I believe The Book of Asatir?

Also The Book of Asatir is not even part of the Torah, so again, why should I believe the Book of Asatir?

Muslims are desperate to try to show the Torah and Injil as lining up with the Quran. But the fact is it does not.

Kaabah being house of demons or pagan rock is your opinion and others; as unbelievers. But it is unfair to make such judgement as 'Temple in Jerusalem' too was the house of pagan worshipping in the past.

~~
The tradition of Ishmaelites relying upon well of Zamzam in the city of Mecca is well known among the Jews living in Arabia for centuries.

Rabbi Abraham Ibn Ezra the great Jewish sage identifies the well mentioned by Hagar in Genesis 16:14 with Zimum (or in other versions, Zimzum), "where the Arabs hold an annual festival. This is Zamzam near Mecca.

"Genesis 16:14 "She called the well Be'er Lachai Roi It is between Kadesh and Bered."

This well is located approximately 20m east of the Kaaba (from today'ss measurement) and indeed it was the source of life for both Ishmael and Hagar before.

There is also ancient Samaritan Jews book (Asatir) in 3rd century BC having the tradition that Ishmael (pbuh) and his son built Bakkah several years after the death of Abraham (pbuh).

You say the Kaaba was built by Abraham. Abraham and Ishmael never went Arabia. There is no record of this in the Torah or Injil which are much older than the Quran. This is a Muslim myth that I believe Mohammad used to try and justify the pagan stone of al-Hajaru-l-Aswadtothe People of the Book.

There is a big difference between the temple in Jerusalem and the Kaaba. Gods Spirit rested on the Temple in Jerusalem. The Kaaba however was nothing but a dirty house of demons, evil spirits and Jinn.

I am not saying Muslims worship the Kaaba. What I am saying is that because Muslims bow to a pagan rock that Islam is defiled, tainted and polluted with pagan Jinn.

Muslims do realize that there is absolutely zero archeological evidence to support the stories told regarding Abraham and the Ka'aba?]]>
Wed, 14 Aug 2013 19:16:18 +0000http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=177643#177643The Haj is shirk ? : Kaaba which consist of several...http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=177631#177631
Author: submitterSubject: 25196Posted: 14 August 2013 at 10:17am

Kaaba which consist of several structures; is a House (of prayer) built by Abraham (pbuh) and Ishmael (pbuh). So what does that mean? Its a blessed place for one to offer prayer.

Prior to bowing and prostrating in the the direction of Kaaba. They did so onto the direction of Al-Aqsa (House of Prayer in Jerusalem). Does that mean Muslims worship Al-Aqsa previously and now worshipping Kaaba?

Why would Muslims worship objects that cant even shelter themselves from rain, lol.

~~~~

Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer)." And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways; (The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)"

We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.
(The Noble Quran, 2:144)

Thanks Brother Mansoor for your valuable input. Quotation from Psalm 138:2 and the Prophet Muhammad (May God Bless Him) said on the topic in discussion has made things very much clear.

I hope that Experiential will also acknowledge it. Just talking bad about Islam does not make it bad. Every one of us has to face Almighty up there. Before it too late and just remain regret, correct our mistakes and join the truth. This must be the way forward. Thanks

Only clear in showing that Muslims are desperate to find anything in the Bible to support Mohamads new religion.

Pagans worshipped stones, rocks, water springs, etc which were under the influence of Jinn and demons.

Mohamed also respected the pagan Haj and the rock as thepagans did.

Muslims are now associated with the Jinn and demons associated with the haj and the rock.

It is logical.

I don’t see how Mohamad facilitating an arrangement about a dispute among tribe leaders over a rock has any thing to do with this?

Yes I think we agree that the rock is just a rock

Just a meteorite - nothing to do with Adam or the Kaaba being the centre of the universe.

Usmani In the case of Jesus Im not sure what you are wanting to know? I already replied to what I thought you were asking earlier. Prove to me from the Bible that Jesus Christ The Messiah is notThe Son of God as you say. Prove to me that He used to pray to God as Muslims of today do pray to God ( bow down head on earth.).

However Christians kissing a cross is not one of the fundamental Pillars of our religion.

If Christians try to kiss a cross it is only a cultural thing – nothing more.

Unlike Muslims where the Haj is one of the 5 Pillars of Islam and walking around a rock 7 times pointing at it, or trying to kiss it is not just a cultural thing but fundamental to the Muslim religion.

Besides I was never discussing kissing as such.

The question I originally posed is whether Islam is associated with the witchcraft of Paganism.

What if that picture was the only one you had and you couldn't get another?

Then it would be more valuable to me, but it still wouldn't be an idol.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

So if there were one particular cross that all Christians venerate, you might accuse them of worshipping an idol. But because there are many such crosses, the cross itself is obviously not the thing being worshipped.

So following your analogy, assuming you have only one picture and you are not able to produce another, I can therefore accuse you of worshipping the picture every time you kiss it, because you only have one.

Classic fallacy of affirming the consequent. I said that if it's truly an idol (i.e. truly the object of worship), then it must be unique. I didn't say that if it is unique, then it must be an idol.

(When I said "you might accuse them of worshipping an idol", I meant only that it's possible, i.e. that uniqueness neither proves nor disproves it. I'll admit that I wasn't very clear.)

Furthermore, you said that the cross is equivalent to a picture because they are both symbols that represent something else. And that the stone is equivalent to your wife (ie. not a symbol) because they represent themselves.

Nope. I never said that the stone is not a symbol. I agree that it is just a symbol. If I recall correctly, I was pointing out that just because Muslims kiss it, or just because Christians kiss a cross, doesn't make either the stone of the cross an idol.

Muslims look at the stone as a lifeless symbol of the truth, a symbol of hope and a reminder of our Creator (subhanaho wa ta'ala). And that's precisely how the christians look at the cross.

This is very suspensions! It seems that "Ron Webb" has some serious connections here! He lost the argument, didn't respond for 4 days and then just like that the posts are gone! Well well well...

Hey, I'm allowed a short vacation, aren't I?

To be honest, I've forgotten exactly where we left off here, but I don't recall losing the argument. As for the deleted posts, the admins are reporting a glitch in the system that lost ten days worth of messages. Not my doing, I promise you.

If I kiss my wife, that obviously signifies that I love my wife. There is only one of her, so there can be no confusion.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

No, the picture is just a symbol, and one of many such. You could destroy that picture and I wouldn't much care, because I can always get another.

What if that picture was the only one you had and you couldn't get another?

Originally posted by Ron Webb

So if there were one particular cross that all Christians venerate, you might accuse them of worshipping an idol. But because there are many such crosses, the cross itself is obviously not the thing being worshipped.

So following your analogy, assuming you have only one picture and you are not able to produce another, I can therefore accuse you of worshipping the picture every time you kiss it, because you only have one.

Furthermore, you said that the cross is equivalent to a picture because they are both symbols that represent something else. And that the stone is equivalent to your wife (ie. not a symbol) because they represent themselves. But then you said...

Originally posted by Ron Webb

But I agree, the Black Stone is not shirk. It is just a focus of worship, or at best a symbol of God's presence.

You're clearly contradicting yourself. So if the stone is a symbol (as you suggested above), your whole analogy falls flat on it's face.

Indeed your analogy is very inconsistent. There is no need to over analyse. It's really very simple. Both objects, the stone and the cross are lifeless objects that represent a particular following, and both are being kissed. That's all there is to it.

Muslims look at the stone as a lifeless symbol of the truth, a symbol of hope and a reminder of our Creator (subhanaho wa ta'ala). And that's precisely how the christians look at the cross.

Even I also can't get it how some of my replies are gone??? But Allah has record of all things, Allah had record of every atom (ch 10 v 61), Allah had knowledge of what we publish (ch 67 v 13).]]>
Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:54:55 +0000http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=176979#176979The Haj is shirk ? : http://www.islamicity.com/foru...http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=176978#176978
Author: abuayishaSubject: 25196Posted: 22 July 2013 at 11:52am

The black stone came from heaven and it was never been worshiped by pagans. On the year 605 AD when pagans rebuilt/renovate the Kaaba, there was a dispute amongst the tribe leaders that who is going to fixed the black stone on its designated place. Finally Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessing of God upon Him) place the black stone on its place while four leaders of tribes were holding it in curtain or something similar.After five years of this event, first revelation came to Prophet (Peace and blessing of God upon Him)

Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessing of God upon Him) told that this stone came from heaven. It is also said that it was first arrive here at the time of Adam (Peace and blessing of God upon him) and when Prophet Ibrahim (Peace and blessing of God upon him) building the kaaba, Angel Jibraiel shows the black stone to Him.

This was the reason it is still here on Kaaba otherwise it will also gone with the 360 idols.

Logically speaking idols worshiper never worship the idols on it orignal form but they gave shape to it like human which have ears nose etc.and then worship it.Black stone never given this shape.

I heard that Jesus (Peace and blessing of God upon him) also there in similar shape in churches.Just want to confirm.

Just in the same way he tried to appeal to the pagans by bowing to your rock that you still bow to today.

I told you categorically that we Muslims do not bow to any rock but you keep saying that. This is what you are. We are not hiding anything from our religion, everything is open. You can watch Kabba on 24 hours live telecast at TV.

My Reply

Read Psalm 138:2I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.

In the previous Scriptures, all Prophets of GOD Almighty bowed down to Him, the Almighty, in the direction of His Holy Temple or House. It's all over the Bible and outside the Bible.

As to worshiping the Kaaba, we absolutely do not worship it. The Prophet of Islam said that the spilling OF A SINGLE DROP OF BLOOD from a Believer ismore dearer to Allah Almighty than the demolishing of the entire Kaaba. In other words, a single drop of blood from a Muslim Believer is more dearer to Allah Almighty than the entire black cubic building:

"Demolishing the Kaaba completely is much more preferred to Allah Almighty than shedding the blood of a Believing Muslim."

So it is not something we worship. It is only a point and a direction that brings us together as one.

There is a major difference here. Gods Spirit settled on the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. The Kaaba however was the resting place for pagan idols, Jinn and Demons.

You said"Demolishing the Kaaba completely is much more preferred to Allah Almighty than shedding the blood of a Believing Muslim."

Thanks Brother Mansoor for your valuable input. Quotation from Psalm 138:2 and the Prophet Muhammad (May God Bless Him) said on the topic in discussion has made things very much clear.

I hope that Experiential will also acknowledge it. Just talking bad about Islam does not make it bad. Every one of us has to face Almighty up there. Before it too late and just remain regret, correct our mistakes and join the truth. This must be the way forward.
Thanks
]]>
Sun, 16 Jun 2013 09:01:10 +0000http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=176444#176444The Haj is shirk ? : ANCHORFREE_VERSION=&#034;623161526&#034;var...http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=176430#176430
Author: Mansoor_aliSubject: 25196Posted: 15 June 2013 at 3:55am

Just in the same way he tried to appeal to the pagans by bowing to your rock that you still bow to today.

I told you categorically that we Muslims do not bow to any rock but you keep saying that. This is what you are. We are not hiding anything from our religion, everything is open. You can watch Kabba on 24 hours live telecast at TV.

In the previous Scriptures, all Prophets of GOD Almighty bowed down to Him, the Almighty, in the direction of His Holy Temple or House. It's all over the Bible and outside the Bible.

As to worshiping the Kaaba, we absolutely do not worship it. The Prophet of Islam said that the spilling OF A SINGLE DROP OF BLOOD from a Believer ismore dearer to Allah Almighty than the demolishing of the entire Kaaba. In other words, a single drop of blood from a Muslim Believer is more dearer to Allah Almighty than the entire black cubic building:

"Demolishing the Kaaba completely is much more preferred to Allah Almighty than shedding the blood of a Believing Muslim."

So it is not something we worship. It is only a point and a direction that brings us together as one.

AgainMuslims know Torah is the word of God and will do anything to make it fit into Muslim interpretation and stories. Mohammad did same thing. He made up his own interpretation of Jewish and Christian stories to get the Jews and Christians on his side.

Me

You are just generalizing things and not and have made up your mind that this religion Islam is forged religion without providing any prove of it.

Furthermore Christianity of today does not have in a shape where it can convinces any person who is in search of truth. Bible has a lot of contradictions, so many versions of Bible out there which are different from each others. Involve in the Greatest Shirk by believing that Jesus (peace be upon Him) was the son of God eventually made Him God. There are so many other factors but which are already highlighted are enough to understand that this religion is not what it used to be on Prophet Jesus (peace be upon Him) time.For the God who is Just full of wisdom,we expect that a complete,flow less and practicle religion must be out there for human.

This is the reasons why Islam is the fastest growing religion of the world.

You Said

Just in the same way he tried to appeal to the pagans by bowing to your rock that you still bow to today.

I told you categorically that we Muslims do not bow to any rock but you keep saying that. This is what you are. We are not hiding anything from our religion, everything is open. You can watch Kabba on 24 hours live telecast at TV.

Surah 2 verse 2 : This is the Book (the Qur'an), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqun [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

You say I am generalizing things and have given no proof?

The proof enough is that pagans bowed to al-Hajaru-l-Aswad and Muslims bow to al-Hajaru-l-Aswad

Pagans walked around the Kaaba 7 times trying to kiss al-Hajaru-l-Aswad and Muslims walk around the Kaaba 7 times trying to kiss al-Hajaru-l-Aswad.

Pagans used the spring of Zam zam and the hills of Safa and Marwa in their religion and Muslims use the spring of Zam zam and the hills of Safa and Marwa in their religion.

What more proof do you need?

Yes there are contradictions in the Bible. So what? The Bible was written by man but inspired by God.

How then do you explain the contradictions and problems in the Quran considering it is supposed to be a ‘miracle’ and ‘divine’ book?

As a Muslim you need to take the Bible seriously. This is what your Quaran says about the Bible -

… We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun S. 5:46. S. 57:27

He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet." S. 19.30.

What do you think Son of God means?

It does not mean God had a wife and then a son (or a daughter).

God ‘The Son’ became man so man (and woman) could become ‘sons of God’. You also can become one with God as a son of God.

Isa was the Messiah and Christ. When you understand that you will understand what ‘Son of God’ means.

You say there are many other factors but which are already highlighted are enough to understand that this religion is not what it used to be in Jesus time.

What are they then?

You say Islam is the fastest growing religion of the world. Well actually that depends on who you talk to. Looking at the statistics on this site it looks as though Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the world.

You say I can watch Kabba on 24 hours live telecast at TV. If I watch Kabba on 24 hours live telecast on TV I will see what happens. Yes, I will see Muslims 5 times a day bowing to a rock, walking around a rock 7 times pointing to it and trying to kiss it.

Just like the pagans did when they worshipped it.

You talk about Surah 2 verse 2. I don’t see how this verse relates to Muslims bowing to a rock.

AgainMuslims know Torah is the word of God and will do anything to make it fit into Muslim interpretation and stories. Mohammad did same thing. He made up his own interpretation of Jewish and Christian stories to get the Jews and Christians on his side.

Me

You are just generalizing things and not and have made up your mind that this religion Islam is forged religion without providing any prove of it.

Furthermore Christianity of today does not have in a shape where it can convinces any person who is in search of truth. Bible has a lot of contradictions, so many versions of Bible out there which are different from each others. Involve in the Greatest Shirk by believing that Jesus (peace be upon Him) was the son of God eventually made Him God. There are so many other factors but which are already highlighted are enough to understand that this religion is not what it used to be on Prophet Jesus (peace be upon Him) time.For the God who is Just full of wisdom,we expect that a complete,flow less and practicle religion must be out there for human.

This is the reasons why Islam is the fastest growing religion of the world.

You Said

Just in the same way he tried to appeal to the pagans by bowing to your rock that you still bow to today.

I told you categorically that we Muslims do not bow to any rock but you keep saying that. This is what you are. We are not hiding anything from our religion, everything is open. You can watch Kabba on 24 hours live telecast at TV.

Surah 2 verse 2 : This is the Book (the Qur'an), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqun [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

Firstly if you have a good read of Psalm 84 you will see it is talking about God's temple in Jerusalem. Not the pagan house of the Kaaba.

Me

Firstly the name mention in Psalm 84 is Baca which is the older name of Makkah and not Jerusalem. Secondly even in pre-Islamic era, Kabba was the place where people used to come for pilgrimage from all over the Arab. Jerusalem was a place of importance for Jew and Muslim both but not famous for pilgrimage like Kabba.

You

Secondly why on earth would Jews, living in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Israel</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> and on their way to Jerusalem, take a huge detour through Mecca?

Me

Kabba built by Prophet Ibrahim (Peace be upon Him) Jew were not exist at that time this was the around 2000BC.He took the journey from where He grew up as a shepherd in the neighborhood of this Hijazi Mountain until he came to confront his ancestor's beliefs, which led to the death sentence pronounced against him; however the miraculously escaped this death and left that area accompanied by his young wife Sarah and his nephew Lot. They headed north following the traders' route and sought shelter at Arapha city (Ar-bah' or Arba2 as inscribed in the Greek Torah). Arapha valley is now a well-known location for it is one of the main holy places that Muslim pilgrims have to visit as part of their annual pilgrimage rituals.

You

Thirdly there are other places with similar names. For example. We often find this word in the names related to rivers and wadis, such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galilee area west of Meroth. This shows that there are other places with similar names.

Me

Other places with similar names does not have Kabba built by Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon Him),Arabian history clearly suggesting the actual place of Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon Him) where He grew up and places of Israelites Prophets (peace be upon them all). Please see the following link for more details.

You say the name mentioned in Psalm 84 is Baca which is the older name of Makkah.No, this is not correct. The Torah is clear and detailed. The Jews lived in what is now modern Israel. If you look at Psalm 84 closely you will see they are passing through the Valley of Bacca to get to Jerusalem. At the time that Psalm 84 was written why would the Jews walk from Israel east 1230 kms to Saudi Arabia and then 1230 kms back again to get to Jerusalem. That is ridiculous.

You say in the pre-Islamic era Kabba was the place where people used to come for pilgrimage from all over the Arab. Yes, that’s correct. I am aware that in the pre-Islamic era Kabba was the place where people used to come for pilgrimage from all over the Arab. A pilgrimage to a pagan worship site. To worship the same pagan rock idol that Muslims still bow to.

You say Jerusalem was a place of importance for Jews and Muslims. However when Psalm 84 was written Muslims did not exist.

The kabba was not build by Prophet Ibrahim. It was built by pagans. There is nothing in the Torah to indicate Ibraham ever went to Saudi Arabia. And the Torah is more reliable than the Quaran or your hadith because it is older. Muslims know the Torah is the word of God and they simply try to add authority to their new religion by telling stories about the Jewish prophets to make their religion look good.

You say other places with similar names does not have the Kabba built by Ibrahim. However where Psalm 84 talks about the Valley of Bakka it does not mention the Kabba.

Also – you miss the point. The name Bakka is common. So for you to think it is Mecca is silly. Bakka is also related to rivers and wadis, such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galilee area west of Meroth.

I looked at the link you sent. It is a load of garbage. The Torah is detailed and clear where the Jewish people settled. It is what is now modern day Israel.

Again Muslims know Torah is the word of God and will do anything to make it fit into Muslim interpretation and stories. Mohammad did same thing. He made up his own interpretation of Jewish and Christian stories to get the Jews and Christians on his side. Just in the same way he tried to appeal to the pagans by bowing to your rock that you still bow to today.

Firstly if you have a good read of Psalm 84 you will see it is talking about God's temple in Jerusalem. Not the pagan house of the Kaaba.

Me

Firstly the name mention in Psalm 84 is Baca which is the older name of Makkah and not Jerusalem. Secondly even in pre-Islamic era, Kabba was the place where people used to come for pilgrimage from all over the Arab. Jerusalem was a place of importance for Jew and Muslim both but not famous for pilgrimage like Kabba.

You

Secondly why on earth would Jews, living in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Israel</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> and on their way to Jerusalem, take a huge detour through Mecca?

Me

Kabba built by Prophet Ibrahim (Peace be upon Him) Jew were not exist at that time this was the around 2000BC.He took the journey from where He grew up as a shepherd in the neighborhood of this Hijazi Mountain until he came to confront his ancestor's beliefs, which led to the death sentence pronounced against him; however the miraculously escaped this death and left that area accompanied by his young wife Sarah and his nephew Lot. They headed north following the traders' route and sought shelter at Arapha city (Ar-bah' or Arba2 as inscribed in the Greek Torah). Arapha valley is now a well-known location for it is one of the main holy places that Muslim pilgrims have to visit as part of their annual pilgrimage rituals.

You

Thirdly there are other places with similar names. For example. We often find this word in the names related to rivers and wadis, such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galilee area west of Meroth. This shows that there are other places with similar names.

Me

Other places with similar names does not have Kabba built by Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon Him),Arabian history clearly suggesting the actual place of Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon Him) where He grew up and places of Israelites Prophets (peace be upon them all). Please see the following link for more details.

You said No Usmani.. The valley of Baca in Psalm 84 sounding similar to where Mecca is given the name Bakkah in Surah 3:96 but this is nothing but a similarity and a coincidence. Nothing more.

Me You are denying the truth from your own book so how can you will believe the truth of Quran and Islam. I am very regret full of yours approach, where you have negate the truth weather it in Quran or Bible.

What a beautiful words I have seen in Bible, I wish to kiss the hands of the person who wrote it.

God Bless you

Please tell me how this was denying the truth ? -

Firstly if you have a good read of Psalm 84 you will see it is talking about God's temple in Jerusalem. Not the pagan house of the Kaaba.

Secondly why on earth would Jews, living in Israel and on their way to Jerusalem, take a huge detour through Mecca?

Thirdly there are other places with similar names. For example. We often find this word in the names related to rivers and wadis, such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galilee area west of Meroth. This shows that there are other places with similar names.

You said
No Usmani..
The valley of Baca in Psalm 84 sounding similar to where Mecca is given the name Bakkah in Surah 3:96 but this is nothing but a similarity and a coincidence. Nothing more.

Me
You are denying the truth from your own book so how can you will believe the truth of Quran and Islam. I am very regret full of yours approach, where you have negate the truth weather it in Quran or Bible.

What a beautiful words I have seen in Bible, I wish to kiss the hands of the person who wrote it.

Yes, there is some things those are similar to pagan practices as they also move around Kaba as Prophet Ismail stay here and built Kaba with his father Abraham (peace and blessing of God upon Him).They recognized God as Allah as we do. Islam has many similarities with Abrahimic faith and with people of the book. This religion (Islam) has been fine tuned by God and made it perfect for the rest of the humanity.

My Reply

Do you believe in Jinn, demons, spirits and false gods? I do andI believe they still have an influence on your religion. The pagan gods of Mecca have a hold on Islam.

Usmani said

Yes I am, when we follow the instruction of doctor he say take this medicine, so do we inquiry about medicine? Once we have thrust on doctor we do not do these foolish things.

My Reply

Do you not have a personal relationship with God? All you have is a text book from a ‘Doctor” that is out of date. This is the kind of blindness that keeps Islam as a primitive and barbaric religion.

Usmani said

There are hundreds of those stories in Islam by our Prophet (peace and blessing of God upon Him), only a true Prophet can come up with them.

My Reply

What makes you say only a prophet could come up with them. Any good science fiction writer could do that.

Ridiculous and silly stories like Sura 18:85-86 about the sun setting into a muddy pond and in Sura 27:18-19 where Solomon heard ants talk when science has proven ants communicate by smell not sound.

These are all just st**id stories that a child could write. Mohammad made nice stories to keep the pagans and his new converts happy and now ‘modern’ Muslims try to do the same with what they call ‘science’.

Usmani said

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for the mankind. In it are manifest signs (for example), the place of Abraham. The Bible also mentions about the valley of Baca in connection with the pilgrimage. Below is the quote from Psalms 84

1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty!

2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.

3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.

4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you.

5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.

6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.

7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.

8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob.

9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.

10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.

11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.

12 O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.

My Reply

No Usmani..

The valley of Baca in Psalm 84 sounding similar to where Mecca is given the name Bakkah in Surah 3:96 but this is nothing but a similarity and a coincidence. Nothing more.

Firstly if you have a good read of Psalm 84 you will see it is talking about God's temple in Jerusalem. Not the pagan house of the Kaaba.

Secondly why on earth would Jews, living in Israel and on their way to Jerusalem, take a huge detour through Mecca?

Thirdly there are other places with similar names. For example. We often find this word in the names related to rivers and wadis, such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galilee area west of Meroth.

This shows that there are other places with similar names.

This is another attempt for Muslims to desperately find something in the Bible to support the Quran. When in reality no support exists.

at expereintial,whatever Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) told us is in direct relation with Qur'an I.e the order from Allah,when we do hajj we are exhibiting several things,first is Allah is one,then when we bow down in single direction(Surah Al baqarah ch 2 v 144),and also exihibits universal brotherhood(ch 49 v 13).by another example I can explain-our prophet said-doing sexual intercourse with ur wife is a charity,sahaba asked how its a charity?,then prophet replied-since U R not committing adultery,hence its a charity.this is in TRUE relation with verse Surah Al Israa ch 17 v 32-Allah forbids adultery.and y don't U give my explanation that Jesus(pbuh) cured leprosy patients and revive people from dead,even in bible several times Jesus(pbuh)says my father is greater than I and I di miracles only because of him,this truly shows that Allah is responsible for everything.in Surah Al Muminoon ch 23 v 12-14-Allah describes the developmental stage of human beings,how they evolve from a scum and acquires a leech like appearnce,years after this,this fact was established that human embryo acquires a leech like appearance in around 1970.i truly believe in Qur'an,because Qur'an is far superior than science,if u believe in hereafter u might b knowing that Allah can revive us from dead even from mere fingerprints,this is mentioned in Surah Al Qiyammah ch 75 v 3-4.

You say when you do hajj you are exhibiting that Allah is one. How is doing the Hajj exhibiting that Allah is one when the pagans did the same thing?

You say to bow in a single direction exhibits universal brotherhood. Brother hood based around a pagan idol !

In regards to your prophet said-doing sexual intercourse with ur wife is a charity, sahaba asked how its a charity?, then prophet replied-since U R not committing adultery, hence its a charity. this is in TRUE relation with verse Surah Al Israa ch 17 v 32-Allah forbids adultery.

So what are you exactly trying to communicate here ? ??

Yes Jesus did miracles. That is correct. So what? That is noting like the silly childish examples you are desperately trying so hard to find to prove that the Quran has ‘scientific miracles.’

Why have younot responded to my proof that Mohammad got Sura 21.30 from the Bible (Genesis Chapter 1) As this is obviously the case then the Bible is the miracle book – not the Quran.

Look at the silly childish stories in the Quran. Look at Sura 18:85-86 where the sun set into a muddy pond. Everyone knows this is scientifically impossible.

Or Sura 27:18-19 about Solomon hearing the ants talk. Science has proven ants do not talk but communicate through smell.

Here are some other st**id stories from the Quran –

Surah 37.6-8 where the stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly council? Not exactly science. This is childish and ridiculous

Or the Golden Calf in Surah 20:85- 100 where a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire.

Actually Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after this time. Mohamed got his history wrong!

Who says only a true prophet could come up with ‘miracle scientific’ stories? Any science fiction writer or pagan witch doctor could do that.

Muslims are just trying to sell the Quran by pretending to see scientific miracles. Just like Mohammad tried to sell the Quran by introducing stories with pagan and Jewish meanings to sell the Quran to pagans and Jews in his day.

You say the Qur'an is far superior than science but yet what the Quran says is only a fraction of what science has proven.. So the Qur’an is no longer authoritative.

Your argument that modern science proves the Qur’an actually destroys the authority of the Qur’an. There are scientific journals, books, and scientific papers that we could read to find out more than the Qur’an teaches on any subject.

So if we can learn more about one subject in the Qur’an by reading from science then why not other subjects too? How can Muslims claim that the Qur’an contains all the guidance mankind needs for living? Perhaps we need to read elsewhere? How do they know that the Qur’an teaches us all we need to know about God’s nature? Or about how he wants us to live? Perhaps they need to read elsewhere to get the full picture? And so on.

Your argument that "modern science proves the Qur’an" destroys the authority of the Qur’an.

Quote:Whether its walking around Hajar-e-Aswad or around Kaba 7 times is irrelevant. It is still the same pagan practice.

Yes, there is some things those are similar to pagan practices as they also move around Kaba as Prophet Ismail (peace and blessing of God upon Him) stay here and built Kaba with his father Abraham (peace and blessing of God upon Him).They recognized God as Allah as we do.Islam has many similarities with Abrahimic faith and with people of the book. This religion (Islam) has been fine tuned by God and made it perfect for the rest of the humanity.

Quote: I am trying to be fair to the truth, however no one has been able to answer my concern that Islam is mixed with pagan religion.

I am trying to answer your concern.

Quote: Do you have an open mind to other religions?

Knowing about other religion was my passion. I have been to church, I have attended the Sunday gathering on church I had face to face discussions on religion with many other religion fellow members.I have spend quite a few time on it just for the search of truth only.

Qoute: You say you walk around Kaba firstly because your prophet ordered you do so and it a part of Hajj. That is a poor reason? Are you just a blind follower and do things simply because you are told to do so?

Yes I am, when we follow the instruction of doctor he say take this medicine, so do we inquiry about medicine? Once we have thrust on doctor we do not do these foolish things.

Quote: In regards to there being a place in the skies where angles are moving around it named “Batul Mamoor” this just sounds like a nice story that Mohammad made up to keep the pagans and his new converts happy.

There are hundreds of those stories in Islam by our Prohet (peace and blessing of God upon Him), only a true Prophet can come up with them

Quote:Yes I believe you are wrong about Hajar-e-Aswad Usmani. It was a pagan rock idol that was worshipped.

I will find out. There is something for you from Quran and Bible

Quran Says,

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for the mankind. In it are manifest signs (for example), the place of Abraham.

The Bible also mentions about the valley of Baca in connection with the pilgrimage. Below is the quote from Psalms 84 (NIV):

1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty! 2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God. 3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God. 4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you. 5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage. 6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools. 7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion. 8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob. 9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one. 10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. 11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless. 12 O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.

at expereintial,whatever Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) told us is in direct relation with Qur'an I.e the order from Allah,when we do hajj we are exhibiting several things,first is Allah is one,then when we bow down in single direction(Surah Al baqarah ch 2 v 144),and also exihibits universal brotherhood(ch 49 v 13).by another example I can explain-our prophet said-doing sexual intercourse with ur wife is a charity,sahaba asked how its a charity?,then prophet replied-since U R not committing adultery,hence its a charity.this is in TRUE relation with verse Surah Al Israa ch 17 v 32-Allah forbids adultery.and y don't U give my explanation that Jesus(pbuh) cured leprosy patients and revive people from dead,even in bible several times Jesus(pbuh)says my father is greater than I and I di miracles only because of him,this truly shows that Allah is responsible for everything.in Surah Al Muminoon ch 23 v 12-14-Allah describes the developmental stage of human beings,how they evolve from a scum and acquires a leech like appearnce,years after this,this fact was established that human embryo acquires a leech like appearance in around 1970.i truly believe in Qur'an,because Qur'an is far superior than science,if u believe in hereafter u might b knowing that Allah can revive us from dead even from mere fingerprints,this is mentioned in Surah Al Qiyammah ch 75 v 3-4.]]>
Wed, 15 May 2013 09:29:29 +0000http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=176037#176037The Haj is shirk ? : Originally posted by Usmani Quote:Walking...http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=175989#175989
Author: ExperientialSubject: 25196Posted: 13 May 2013 at 12:19am

Originally posted by Usmani

Quote:Walking around it 7 times just like the pagans did. Pointing at it and trying to kiss it just like the pagans did.

Muslims did not walk around Hajar-e-Aswad,they walk around Kaba,yes Muslim pointing toward it because too many people around and it is not good to hurt people so we just point out towards hajar-e- Aswad and kiss our hand.

Brother if you really wish to learn about Islam, don’t think it is false religion at the first place. Study in depth and then decide. Things which help more in understanding Islam is your fairness of knowing the truth rather than how intelligent you are.

Why we walk around Kaba firstly prophet(peace and blessing of God upon Him) order us to do so and it a part of Hajj. Secondly there is a second place similar to Kaba (may be not facially but with same purpose) in the skies where angles are moving around it named “Batul Mamoor”God blessings are coming down from Batul Mamoor to Kaba.

Qoute:180 % ? Truth is all around and within. Why the direction finder ?

I mean oneself keep his back towards the truth any way you are absolutely correct, it is within but still people can’t find it. There are two hurdles and both are within as well.

Quote: So with his army behind him Muhammad had the courage to destroy 360 lesser idols but not the courage to destroythe more important rock idol ?

I may be wrong but Hajar-e-Aswad was never the idol for pagans yes these 360 idols were belong to various tribes and they used to keep them in Kaba for worship.

Whether its walking around Hajar-e-Aswad or around Kaba 7 times is irrelevant. It is still the same pagan practice.

I am trying to be fair to the truth, however no one has been able to answer my concern that Islam is mixed with pagan religion.

Do you have an open mind to other religions?

You say you walk around Kaba firstly because your prophet ordered you do so and it a part of Hajj. That is a poor reason ? Are you just a blind follower and do things simply because you are told to do so?

In regards to there being a place in the skies where angles are moving around it named “Batul Mamoor” this just sounds like a nice story that Mohammad made up to keep the pagans and his new converts happy.

Yes I believe you are wrong about Hajar-e-Aswad Usmani. It was a pagan rock idol that was worshipped.

Khajar or Abraham never went to Arabia or Mecca. There is no history outside of the Quaran to prove it and the Bible never mentions they went to Mecca. And the Bible is centuries older than the Quaran so of course the older history is more reliable. The Quaran version is a myth and the Quaran has been produced by a human.

Actually Qur'an is a name, so it should not be translated. It is the fire of hate that change it. I don't write Bible as Buble. It is up to the concerned party to name his goods and the opposite party must use it as requested by the concerned party. But anyway, that is not what I was talking about.

In page 1 - did I mention that the story of Khajr was in the Qur'an? Read it again slowly if you have not, you will see it better.

As everyone on this forum communicates in English then it is the English spelling that is important. However as courtesy to you I will spell it Quran.

The Bible also mentions Abraham and Hagar (Khajr) and it mentions nothing about them going to Mecca.

It has nothing to do with what is better. It is about what is the most reliable.

The Bible is centuries older than the Quran so of course the older history is more reliable. The Quran version is a myth used by Mohammad to get the pagans on his side.

The Hajj is full of the old pagan religion. Even the spring of Zam zam and the hills of Safa and Marwa were important parts of the old pagan religion.

prophet Muhammad was illiterate then how he could wrote such a flawless book.this is clearly mentioned in Surah Al Ankaboot ch 29 v 47-48.Moreover about the verses U mentioned,those were the ages of miracles.Jesus christ(pbuh) use to cure leprosy patients,used to revive dead people.how could he do this,he do this because of Allah.this is mentioned in bible.now,today is the age of science,that's y it is difficult to believe for some in those miracles.as far as rock is concerened,prophet Muhammad kissed it not bow down it,how it is possible because Allah forbids bowing down besides him in Surah Al Maidah ch 5 v 90,bowing down in front besides Allah is shirk which is unforgivable(ch 4 v 48,v 116).

So what if Mohammad was illiterate. This is no miracle. He recited to his friends who memorized it then later wrote it down (and later they all couldn’t agree on what Mohamed said). No miracle there. Also the Quaran is not flawless. It has many mistakes.

Age of miracles? Age of science ? Then Islam has no relevance to the now or the future. Besides I proved to you that Sura 21.30 was copied from the Bible. So then the Bible is the miracle book, not the Quran.

Also you haven’t mentioned the silly scientific impossibilities in the Quran. Do you really believe that –

King Solomon overheard a conversation between ants. This is scientifically impossible as ants use smell, not sound, to communicate !?

Sura 27:18-19

Or that reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. !?

Sura 18:85-86

The Qaran is full of contradictions and Mohammad was a man of contradictions.

Quote:Walking around it 7 times just like the pagans did. Pointing at it and trying to kiss it just like the pagans did.

Muslims did not walk around Hajar-e-Aswad,they walk around Kaba,yes Muslim pointing toward it because too many people around and it is not good to hurt people so we just point out towards hajar-e- Aswad and kiss our hand.

Brother if you really wish to learn about Islam, don’t think it is false religion at the first place. Study in depth and then decide. Things which help more in understanding Islam is your fairness of knowing the truth rather than how intelligent you are.

Why we walk around Kaba firstly prophet(peace and blessing of God upon Him) order us to do so and it a part of Hajj. Secondly there is a second place similar to Kaba (may be not facially but with same purpose) in the skies where angles are moving around it named “Batul Mamoor”God blessings are coming down from Batul Mamoor to Kaba.

Qoute:180 % ? Truth is all around and within. Why the direction finder ?

I mean oneself keep his back towards the truth any way you are absolutely correct, it is within but still people can’t find it. There are two hurdles and both are within as well.

Quote: So with his army behind him Muhammad had the courage to destroy 360 lesser idols but not the courage to destroythe more important rock idol ?

I may be wrong but Hajar-e-Aswad was never the idol for pagans yes these 360 idols were belong to various tribes and they used to keep them in Kaba for worship.

Khajar or Abraham never went to Arabia or Mecca. There is no history outside of the Quaran to prove it and the Bible never mentions they went to Mecca. And the Bible is centuries older than the Quaran so of course the older history is more reliable. The Quaran version is a myth and the Quaran has been produced by a human.

Actually Qur'an is a name, so it should not be translated. It is the fire of hate that change it. I don't write Bible as Buble. It is up to the concerned party to name his goods and the opposite party must use it as requested by the concerned party. But anyway, that is not what I was talking about.

In page 1 - did I mention that the story of Khajr was in the Qur'an? Read it again slowly if you have not, you will see it better.

prophet Muhammad was illiterate then how he could wrote such a flawless book.this is clearly mentioned in Surah Al Ankaboot ch 29 v 47-48.Moreover about the verses U mentioned,those were the ages of miracles.Jesus christ(pbuh) use to cure leprosy patients,used to revive dead people.how could he do this,he do this because of Allah.this is mentioned in bible.now,today is the age of science,that's y it is difficult to believe for some in those miracles.as far as rock is concerened,prophet Muhammad kissed it not bow down it,how it is possible because Allah forbids bowing down besides him in Surah Al Maidah ch 5 v 90,bowing down in front besides Allah is shirk which is unforgivable(ch 4 v 48,v 116).

Just about one and half year back, I have performed hajj and millions of Muslims from all over the world were there, I had spend one month living near Kaba spending my most of time there in kaba.I have never seen a single person bowing or worshiping HAJAR –E-ASWAD just kissing only.

How can you believe in the truth when you are keeping yourself 180 degree away from it.

Quote: Mohammad only wanted to get the Meccans on his side by paying respect to the rock.

And by breaking the 360 statue which were there inside the kaba and Meccans used to worship them.

Walking around it 7 times just like the pagans did. Pointing at it and trying to kiss it just like the pagans did.

180 % ? Truth is all around and within. Why the direction finder ?

So with his army behind him Mohamad had the courage to destroy 360 lesser idols but not the courage to destroythe more important rock idol ?

Qur'an is not produced by human,because some things humans discover in recent centuries Allah mentioned in Qur'an 1400 years back,eg about big bang theory which scientists discover only few 50 years back,Allah mentioned this in Surah An Anbya ch 21 v 30.then few years back I.e in 1600's,1700's,scientists discovered layers of wave within the oceans,sea.Allah had compared about the dark concept of disbeliever with the fact mentioned above in Surah An Noor ch 24 v 40,in Holy Qur'an 1400 years ago.We Muslims don't bow down besides Allah.the biggest message of Hajj is to prove universal brotherhood and prove that we bow in one direction I.e in direction of Holy Kabah(Surah Al Baqarah ch 2 v 144).

Then why does Islam continue to lead the world in science? Because it does not.

Reading Sura 21.30 it doesn’t sound like the scientific Big Bang to me. In fact it reminds me more of the version from the Bible in Genesis Chapter 1. Which makes sense considering Mohammad borrowed so much from the Bible to get the Jews and Christians on his side. –

God saw that the light was good, and he separatethe light from the darkness.

Genesis 1:4

In terms of science the Koran is full of silly scientific claims For example –

Sura 27:18-19 records that King Solomon overheard a conversation between ants. This is scientifically impossible as ants use smell, not sound, to communicate and the context of the story indicates that this is not a miracle of Allah.

Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool.

How are these silly statements from the Koran to be explained scientifically?

At first Mohammad said to bow to Jerusalem to get the Jews to believe his new religion. When that didn’t work he said to bow to the rock idol in Mecca to get the Pagans to believe in his new religion.

Also Khajar or Abraham never went to Arabia or Mecca. There is no history outside of the Koran to prove it and the Bible never mentions they went to Mecca. And the Bible is centuries older than the Koran so of course the older history is more reliable. The Koran version is a myth and the Koran has been produced by a human.

Did I say Qur'an?

In English Koran can either be spelt as 'Koran' or 'Quaran'. Anyway -

Khajar or Abraham never went to Arabia or Mecca. There is no history outside of the Quaran to prove it and the Bible never mentions they went to Mecca. And the Bible is centuries older than the Quaran so of course the older history is more reliable. The Quaran version is a myth and the Quaran has been produced by a human.

Also Khajar or Abraham never went to Arabia or Mecca. There is no history outside of the Koran to prove it and the Bible never mentions they went to Mecca. And the Bible is centuries older than the Koran so of course the older history is more reliable. The Koran version is a myth and the Koran has been produced by a human.

Just about one and half year back, I have performed hajj and millions of Muslims from all over the world were there, I had spend one month living near Kaba spending my most of time there in kaba.I have never seen a single person bowing or worshiping HAJAR –E-ASWAD just kissing only.

How can you believe in the truth when you are keeping yourself 180 degree away from it.

Quote: Mohammad only wanted to get the Meccans on his side by paying respect to the rock.

And by breaking the 360 statue which were there inside the kaba and Meccans used to worship them.

Qur'an is not produced by human,because some things humans discover in recent centuries Allah mentioned in Qur'an 1400 years back,eg about big bang theory which scientists discover only few 50 years back,Allah mentioned this in Surah An Anbya ch 21 v 30.then few years back I.e in 1600's,1700's,scientists discovered layers of wave within the oceans,sea.Allah had compared about the dark concept of disbeliever with the fact mentioned above in Surah An Noor ch 24 v 40,in Holy Qur'an 1400 years ago.We Muslims don't bow down besides Allah.the biggest message of Hajj is to prove universal brotherhood and prove that we bow in one direction I.e in direction of Holy Kabah(Surah Al Baqarah ch 2 v 144).

Mohammad only wanted to get the Meccans on his side by paying respect to the rock.

Also Khajar or Abraham never went to Arabia or Mecca. There is no history outside of the Koran to prove it and the Bible never mentions they went to Mecca. And the Bible is centuries older than the Koran so of course the older history is more reliable. The Koran version is a myth and the Koran has been produced by a human.

Just like Mohamad tried to get the pagans on his side by kissing the rock idol , he tried to get the Jews on his side by making up stories about Jewish characters from the Bible like Adam, Khajar and Abraham.

Do Muslims worship a pagan rock ( al-Hajaru-l-Aswad) during the Haj and bow to it 5 times a day?Bow and worship have different meanings. Bowing is an act in showing of respect, revere. Worshiping act can be done without bowing. If you in daily life only for money than you are worshiping money. Worship is an action where anything else is no: 2 or thereafter, you put your life into it.

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Usmani

One day, Hazrat Umar approached the stone and said: “I know very well that you are a stone that does no harm and has no benefit. If I had not seen the Holy Prophet (PBUH) kiss you, then I would have never kissed you.

I hope your misconception will be removed.

Hello Usmani

Thank you for your reply. Then why did Mohomad kiss it?

There were lots of things that he did in his life time, that was 1400 years ago. I don't do hadith but even that I still have no problem in understanding such simple narration. But here it is:"I saw he kissed you rock, yet in very certain term he is teaching us that rock is just a rock, lifeless. I do it as a sign for love and gratitude to what he is doing to us".

Hajar ul Aswad (the black stone), is not mentioned in the Qur'an btw.

But aside from the simple stuff. Ishmael's mother was a black woman by the name Khajar. In the Bible she is known as Hagar (Hajar = Khajar).The kissing was an act of love to the very important woman, casted out woman. Arab is a mixed race with strong African root. The kissing is telling us that African is the root of humanity.

In addition to it, Abraham grave is also there about 10 - 15 meters away, but not inside the Ka'bah.

Mohammad only wanted to get the Meccans on his side by paying respect to the rock.

Also Khajar or Abraham never went to Arabia or Mecca. There is no history outside of the Koran to prove it and the Bible never mentions they went to Mecca. And the Bible is centuries older than the Koran so of course the older history is more reliable. The Koran version is a myth and the Koran has been produced by a human.

Hajj signifies the universal brotherhood because in this place everybody is equal irrespective of their wealth,age,sex,colour.Muslims signify that our Qibla is one that is the wholy Kaba and we offer salat in that direction(Surah Al baqarah ch 2 v 144).

Do Muslims worship a pagan rock ( al-Hajaru-l-Aswad) during the Haj and bow to it 5 times a day?

Bow and worship have different meanings. Bowing is an act in showing of respect, revere. Worshiping act can be done without bowing. If you in daily life only for money than you are worshiping money. Worship is an action where anything else is no: 2 or thereafter, you put your life into it.

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Usmani

One day, Hazrat Umar approached the stone and said: “I know very well that you are a stone that does no harm and has no benefit. If I had not seen the Holy Prophet (PBUH) kiss you, then I would have never kissed you.

I hope your misconception will be removed.

Hello Usmani

Thank you for your reply. Then why did Mohomad kiss it?

There were lots of things that he did in his life time, that was 1400 years ago. I don't do hadith but even that I still have no problem in understanding such simple narration. But here it is:"I saw he kissed you rock, yet in very certain term he is teaching us that rock is just a rock, lifeless. I do it as a sign for love and gratitude to what he is doing to us".

Hajar ul Aswad (the black stone), is not mentioned in the Qur'an btw.

But aside from the simple stuff. Ishmael's mother was a black woman by the name Khajar. In the Bible she is known as Hagar (Hajar = Khajar).The kissing was an act of love to the very important woman, casted out woman. Arab is a mixed race with strong African root. The kissing is telling us that African is the root of humanity.

In addition to it, Abraham grave is also there about 10 - 15 meters away, but not inside the Ka'bah.

That is the way I see thing.]]>
Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:58:00 +0000http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=175567#175567The Haj is shirk ? : Originally posted by Usmani Muslims...http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25196&PID=175546#175546
Author: ExperientialSubject: 25196Posted: 22 April 2013 at 11:57pm

Originally posted by Usmani

Muslims Only Worship Allah,following statement of second Khliph of Islam is very much clear on the issue.

One day, Hazrat Umar approached the stone and said: “I know very well that you are a stone that does no harm and has no benefit. If I had not seen the Holy Prophet (PBUH) kiss you, then I would have never kissed you.

Muslims Only Worship Allah,following statement of second Khliph of Islam is very much clear on the issue.

One day, Hazrat Umar approached the stone and said: “I know very well that you are a stone that does no harm and has no benefit. If I had not seen the Holy Prophet (PBUH) kiss you, then I would have never kissed you.