ADDED: Actually, he doesn't purport to know. He's just passing along some bullshit he heard.

I have no way to know whether this is true or not. But I'd love to hear from Mormon readers if this analysis of Mitt strikes them in any way as accurate.

When is it okay to spread stuff like this around? Isn't this prejudice and bigotry? Is it a special thing reserved for Mormons? For your political enemies? Test yourself out, Andrew. Imagine some friend of yours told you something like that about some other religious group. Test it with every religious group can think of, referring to political candidates that you like and dislike. Hold yourself to a neutral standard. Are you satisfied with what you've put out there?

And Sullivan is an expert on this because?...he heard about it? He's the main "I can't get over Romney's underwear" guy from a few election cycles ago, isn't he?

What Sullivan (and his Sullivanist followers here--you know who you are) forget is what an uglier face Obama put on government writ large. Sullivan can't see this because he's in love with the guy somehow.

Actually, I agree with Sullivan, this one, odd time. I have had family connexions with Mormonism. It has creepy, cultlike features. If you try to leave after committing to joining there are all kinds of weird visits from your "sponsors" demanding you come back. They went to the person's work, talked to neighbors. Really strange. Too little room to go into it all here, but they have some weird shit going on. This is not even going into the theology, which makes Scientology look sane. And then there's the recent (and some say, still) racist practices and beliefs. The whole claiming to be Christian, while denying the divinity of Christ. Sorry, this stuff matters to me. I'll never vote for Romney for a number of reasons, and Mormonism is one. I predict he won't win a Southern state again in the primaries (Florida is not a typical Southern state) just like in 2008. He will lose several in the general if he's the nominee. He will there-fore lose the election.

I don't think this is unique to ministers or politicians. Anyone that deals on a personal level with a relentless stream of strangers is prone to develop this facade of fake exuberance. I did the same thing when I worked retail. Sullivan probably did it when he was doubled over in some alley in San Fransisco during Spring Break--though he probably had the luxury of wearing an actual mask. It's difficult to sustain a high level of interest and cheerfulness with so many different people, one after another, for such extended periods of time. Eh, Andrew?

docweasel, you have no idea what you are talking about. We don't "deny the divinity of Christ". We worship Christ as the Son of God and the Redeemer. We don't "demand you come back". All you have to do to leave the church is send a letter stating your desire to the local Bishop. And what exactly our our "still racist practices and beliefs", pray tell?

Every day we decide what kind of person we are, docweasel. Is this really the person you want to be?

Depends on what you are talking about. According to the episode I saw, there is no mask.

"This is not even going into the theology, which makes Scientology look sane."Don't know much about Scientology, do ya.

I also know a number of Mormons and while it isnt my cup of tea, I find them no weirder than certain types of Pentecostals, Baptists, Catholics, Jews, Wiccans, etc. I couldn't give a rats ass if dances naked in the moonlight in the service of Satan, as long as he doesn't happen to be Obama, he's made a huge step towards me voting for him. If you are not going to vote for him because of his religion, and ONLY because his religion, then that's really strange and you've got some really weird shit going on there.

"It's the kind of public presentation that a Muslim with real church authority deploys when dealing with less elevated believers, talking to them, and advising them. The cheery aw-shucks fake niceness in person is a function in part, some believe, of the role he has long played in the church: always a leader."

What do you expect from Andrew Sullivan? He thinks Sarah Palin's son is her grandson. Also, seems to me a an awful lot of what passes as journalism these days is just passing on gossip they hear from each other.

Give me a break. I joined the LDS Church 44 years ago, and am still an active member. I so freaking tired of people who have absolutely no clue about the Church "explaining" what we really believe and how we really act (including you, docweasel). We're not a cult, there's nothing creepy about us -- we just spend a lot of time trying really hard to live up to our standards. Are there weird Mormons? Sure -- same's true of any religion.

I say this, by the way, as someone who doesn't particularly like Romney and who thinks he's amazingly tone-deaf at times. But that's not because he's Mormon; that's just him. I also say this as someone who has personally known Senators Orrin Hatch, Gordon Smith, and Harry Reid (in the last case, he and I attended the same LDS congregation for six years). They're all quite different, have different personalities and political belefs, and they all happen to be Mormon.

And, Docweasel, your profound ignorance is showing if you think Mormons deny the divinity of Christ. Here's a little challege for you: pick up a copy of the Book of Mormon and a yellow highlighter, and mark every refernce in there to Christ. Then come back, and we'll talk. ..bruce..

Been a Mormon all my life. Grew up in California and have a U.C. Berkeley PhD. I've been around. This is total nonsense. Utterly. Look, we have a distinctive theology, and we take care of each other. Other than that, we're just people. I think the best antidote for all this crap is to talk to people from Oregon, California or Arizona, where everyone has Mormon friends and neighbors. As for the cult nonsense, how could the same cult attract both Harry Reid and Glenn Beck?

docweasel you have know idea what you are talking about. I won't go to your place of business or to your neighbors. If you want to quit, quit. Not hard. If I know you, I will miss seeing you, but we believe in free agency. You can choose to follow the teachings of the church or not. We believe in Jesus Christ and try to follow His teachings. If that doesn't fit your definition of christianity, that is not my problem. I am looking for a president who tries to be a good person. Some of my religious beliefs may not match others, but by their fruits ye shall know them.

For instance, the kids are missing. Didn't Richard Nixon had to prove there were some college kids who were willing to vote for the guy?

Has politics just upped and left our campuses? Is what's left vending machines for condoms?

Talking about masks. And, not able to read a person's face. It comes to my mind that I can't you tell, just by looking, what the average Chinese or Japanese person thinks. (Yes, I know they vote.)

So far, all we know is that the republican party seems to be full of a lot of religious folk who are trying to foist their book ... and, their interpretation of this specific book, down a lot of throats. Including non-believers.

Oh, and not to leave out categories: Gays, too.

Mitt's not for everybody.

What happens if Mitt deflates? Will republican voters just look surprised? Will they get stunned?

The one thing I know about religion, is that the word "sects" ... means "all is not one."

Oh, yeah. The other thing I know about Andrew Sullivan is that he's more apt to write for (and get paid by), the Daily Beast. With Tina Brown holding, or withholding his paychecks.

HELLO.

He's a voice from "the other side."

I haven't heard much from "over there."

But if I had to guess? The election won't be held tomorrow.

Not just Obama. But all of his media array, will be taking aim at both religion ... in all its varieties ... And, TWO: Anyone who challenges Obama.

We know Newt bled all over the floor.

And, in Nevada, we know Harry Reid (of all people), won over Sharon Angle. Is Nevada "juiced" for Mormons?

You mean that he heard Romney's bullshit of cheery aw-shucks fake niceness, and he's passing that along?

I've heard it too. We all have. That is why nearly everyone finds Romney to be inauthentic and plastic, like a Ken doll.

Is it due to Mormonism? Who the hell cares. To focus on the Mormonism aspect and totally ignore the cheery aw-shucks fake niceness bullshit is to miss the point entirely.

The real point is that Romney -- for whatever reason -- is an untrustworthy, say anything, cheery aw-shucks fake niceness bullshitter who is more qualified to sell used cars than he is to be president.

"does Romney have any LDS authority, other than being an important pol? I've never seen it mentioned, and it's not like Mormons make a secret of being in the hierarchy."

I think this may be a key question and a way his opponents in the fall will square the circle of religious bigotry. Romney was the head of the Boston diocese, wasn't he, as a Catholic would term it (I don't know the Mormon titles)?

If it was Father Drinan running for President instead of John F. Kennedy, wouldn't the whole Catholic thing have seemed a more legitimate question to most people?

I'm not a Mormon, and have no particular love for Romney, but if I were in his shoes in this situation, I'd definitely quote South Park:

"Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up, but I have a great life. and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don’t care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that’s stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you’re so high and mighty you couldn’t look past my religion and just be my friend back. You’ve got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls."

Just enough room to show your vile prejudice, I guess. Denying the divinity of Christ? Really? Check your sources. We (I happen to be Mormon -- a Mormon Bishop, in fact) may have profoundly different doctrines from mainstream Christianity on a lot of things, but the divinity of Christ is not one of them.

Some people can disagree with another faith's beliefs without being a bigot about it. You aren't demonstrating that skill. Check out Freeman's posts on the "Landslide" thread from last night -- especially the 9:03 post. Mormonism doesn't fit his definition of Christianity, and he states frankly and accurately why. I'm OK with that. I'm comfortable with my own definition of "Christian". But he doesn't put my beliefs in some bizarre carnival-fun-house mirror that exaggerates insignificant aspects into horrifying oddities, and he doesn't show either utter ignorance or wilful misrepresentation.

Mormons are common in my community, I grew up around them. They are a cult (I believe that because much of their doctrine is kept secret from outsiders), they believe in us vs. them. Name another religion which has it's own little school right next to public schools so that they can "recalibrate" the students after all the terrible things they learned at the public school. Above all, they worship money. As with all followers of faith, there are different levels of devotion. I have Mormon friends, they are good people, they believe in family. But if there is a disaster, they will care only for their own. Another thing I can verify is the old joke about always taking two Mormons if you go fishing. If you take only one, he will drink all of your beer.

Its no fun without Palin to kick around anymore.Would it be cruel to send Sullivan an anonymous email claiming I had close connections to the Romneys & that I'd seen -- with my own eyes!! -- Palin convert to Mormonism and marry Romney as a "second wife" in a secret ceremony in Utah? With Trig circumsised in the ceremony's ghastly finale?

What I find different about Mormons is the relationship they try to build about true baptism. And the idea of prophets, where the true ones are Mormons. Mormons in general seem nicer to me than everyone else I meet. Of course that bothers me.

I'd be something else here than unknown but google seems to have stuck that on me with perma glue.

The Osmonds were antithetical to the Jackson Five's thesis, just as Soul Train was to American Bandstand. The Cornelius Brothers and Sister Rose could have represented a new synthesis. How come Eddie Cornelius never appeared on Soul Train or American Bandstand. His voice reminds me a little of Sam Cook.

Well, both of them would be foreign-built (hey, buy the best your dollar will get you) and even used would be out of my price range.

Mitt's would be impeccably maintained, would go fast with minimal road noise, would come with freshly-sprayed New Car Smell, and otherwise totally isolate you from the real world. Aficianados would nod to you with solemn expressions when you step out of the car. Everyone else's first impression would be, wow, that looks expensive, and then bored, forget they saw it.

Newt's would be throwing oil, because it was probably built to live fast and die young. (It might have a horse, a trident, or something else like that on the hood.) It would scare the shit out of you going through the corners, but assuming you actually replaced the (very expensive) specialty tires every 3000 miles, the car would hold them and you'd survive. It would smell like the last expensive hooker who sat in the passenger's seat. Men would drool, and women would want to sit in the passenger's seat.

OTOH, Obama would sell you the title to a car, you'd go to pick it up, and you'd find an empty parking space.

We (I happen to be Mormon -- a Mormon Bishop, in fact) may have profoundly different doctrines from mainstream Christianity on a lot of things, but the divinity of Christ is not one of them.

Thank you for that frank admission. I wish I could tell you that most Mormons I've bumped into have been so frank.

I understand, to some extent, the LDS reticence in being up-front about their teachings in a primarily Christian country. After all, Joseph Smith was murdered by a "Christian" mob for doing exactly that.

But sometimes, the LDS just can't seem to shake the urge to obfuscate, e.g. this

"Confusion and false doctrines about the Godhead were fashioned out of the Nicene Creed and Constantinople councils, where men declared that instead of three separate beings, the Godhead was three persons in one God, or the Trinity. Just as Christian Protestant reformers struggled with these creeds of men, I did as well."

Just what "Reformers" did he have in mind who rejected the Trinitarian formulation of the Nicene Creed. Or any of it at all? Michael Servetus, proto-Unitarian and burned by Calvin in Geneva? Certainly not any of the classical reformers.

Andrew once again reveals his reflexive contempt for the Other -- in his case, conservative heterosexual breeding women like Sarah Palin, religious people like Mitt Romney, and blacks who fall on the other side of the bell curve. In these cases he's "just asking questions," and how can asking questions possibly be bigoted?

Any person who spends five minutes around a true leader will see there's a mask. Why does Andrew suspect that's a Mormon thing? It's so closely reminiscent of people who think it's a Jewish thing -- the same people who have just a question or two about the holocaust, and truthfully, what's wrong with asking questions?

I wish Romney would talk more about the work he did as a Mormon Bishop and Stake President. When he served in those callings, he spent 10-20 unglamorous hours a week working with people from all walks of life. As a Bishop, he was responsible for administering the church welfare program, which means he personally worked with people in need and gave them financial and material support. You don't get to choose who you hang out with as a bishop, you're responsible for everyone living in your geographic area and must be kind and supportive to everyone. The vast majority of people with Romney's wealth associate only with their peers, and have no conception of the magnitude of unpaid commitment and service Romney provided. Romney is too cagey about his Mormon experience, I think if he were to speak about his service it would humanize him and deflate the idea that he is out of touch with the common man.

And by the way, for those saying Mormonism is a cult - I'm a practicing Mormon with a PhD from Berkeley. I have heard it all. Assuming people believe things only because they're naive is bigotry of the most common sort. Have a little tolerance, please.

Now that this thread is getting old, I'm probably not going to get a response, but here's my take: the one way in which the Mormonism is a concern is that, well, how do intelligent Mormons deal with the fact that it's a bit flaky, to say the least, to believe that the Lost Tribes of Israel came to the U.S. and built a civilization of which there is no trace? And I've read (maybe I'm wrong on this one) that Mormons believe in having large families because their children will serve them in the afterlife (won't they be stuck serving their own parents then?).

So I'm figuring that there's some degree to which they figure it is "crazy stories that make absolutely no sense" like the South Park character, but don't want to leave the community, damage their relationships with family, etc., so they ignore that skepticism. And I would tend to connect that pragmatism to Romney's claimed flip-flopping, which in some ways might be a practicality that we need in a president (fix the economy, don't pursue ideological purity) but might also give us too much of a tendancy to give in and take the path of least resistance (in foreign policy, giving the Iranians a pass over and over again; in budgeting, accepting high deficits rather than making hard choices to cut the deficit, etc.)

Reading some of these comments I think Andrew Sullivan's got company. Mormons love money? Uh...okay. I love money too. I mean, I really like having it, as much as I can get which isn't all that much because I'm not especially talented but still. And I'm not even Mormon. And Mormons have their own special schools? Unlike Jews with their Hebrew school or Catholics who send their kids to catechism classes or Baptists who have Sunday schools and Bible camp and vacation bible school in the summer. Yes, Mormons are real unique with that. And Mormons are a cult because they have secretive beliefs, so secret that you can buy the book of Mormon at Amazon and can easily find any number of other books about the faith and even invite a passing LDS missionary into your home to learn all about it. Very covert.

You know what's really weird about Mormons? They all love basketball. Seriously. And the Boy Scouts. They're big into that. Plus they seem to like having kids. Very strange. That Mormon Mask, it's hiding a lot of sicko stuff for sure.

Look, we have a distinctive theology, and we take care of each other. Other than that, we're just people.

Yeah, people following a "belief' brought by Joseph Smith who was first brought to America's attention after being busted in New York's "burnt over district" for fraud (it was called the "burnt over district" because it was notorious, for it's gullibility, amongst the numerous religious con men who regularly blew through town).

Smith's nonsense involved golden plates - with a message only he could see - and an angel named "Moroni" (which rhymes too well with "baloney") plus a bunch of added BS from almost every major religion, practically held together with duct tape because Smith was illiterate.

I could go on but there's no point - the ignorance of others is the key to cultism's rise. For those of you so quick to scream "bigotry," I ask you:

if you arrived in a new city and, within three days, found people calling you at work, asking if you had a Book of Mormon (as I did in Salt Lake) would you think this was a typical "church" you're dealing with?

The pope will talk in parables to you. It's the nature of the business. He will reserve the inner symbolism for himself. It's like trying to explain a dream to people._____________

Yet another erroneous know-nothing statement about the Catholic Church and about Pope Benedict in particular.

In point of fact, far from reserving the inner symbolism for himself, as if he were some gnostic, Pope Benedict is still the professor that he was went he taught theology in the university. And he is widely reknown as a master teacher, taking the time to explain the most complex points in easy and understandable terms, yet without "dumbing it down."

Enough with this "this or that religion is a cult" nonsense. We would be wise to remember that labeling religious organizations as "cults" allows us to dehumanize them...and that attitude gave us things like Waco, the Holocaust, and Missouri Governor Bogg's extermination order against the Mormons in the 1830s.

Umm, Prof. Althouse, instead of suggesting that Sullivan test himself out by imagining some other religious group, you perhaps ought to have suggested that he imagine some other sort of discrete and insular minority group.

Pretty much, all religions are cults to one extent or another. The ones you know and grew up in seem comfortable to you. The ones you don't know are weird and strange and must be cults....right?

Being a Ron Paul supporter counts as a cult in my opinion. Same thing with being an Eco-nazi tree hugging nut or a rabid PETA extremist.

I don't know much about Mormonism, but I do know many people who belong to the Mormon Church. As far as I can tell they are just nice people, good citizens, good parents and don't push their religion on anyone. Which is something I can't say about most rabid progressives, eco freaks or the Occupy Whatever morons.

I think back to Gerald Ford. Nixon picked a guy who was known for his charm. And, Gerald Ford didn't disappoint on that score. You know, two years after his appointment to the presidency, he refused to leave. And, forced Ronald Reagan to go home.

1976 came and went. And, Ford didn't win.

It wasn't a "charm" issue.

Wrong man selected, issue.

In 2008, that's what befell McCain.

1996? Should it count? Nobody could have won against Bill Clinton.

What did you learn?

You learned the American public didn't get all outraged over a blow job.

I don't think it's a Mormon issue, now. I think, though, that it is so sad that so many ambitious men have to cater to the social conservative end of the republican party.

But, heck, maybe Obama wins anyway.

What we're going through, then? The trials of watching a debate about religion ... Not just one branch. But whether you can collect a majority ... where none collected before.

I'm not a Mormon, and have no particular love for Romney, but if I were in his shoes in this situation, I'd definitely quote South Park,...

Sure, but South Park left out that, without furious pushback, people in Salt Lake caught nasty looks for drinking coffee, wanting a beer, or many other forms of normal living. Beer in Utah still isn't full strength because of Mormons and you have to buy it at a heavily taxed "liquor store". (I had a friend - a cop - come to visit recently, and we went down to the hotel bar to talk over drinks. He took one sip and asked the bartender if she forgot the vodka. She replied he was in Utah and, if he wanted a 'real drink," he'd have to purchase two and combine them in a single glass,...) Until recently, you couldn't even enter a bar without a fucking "sponsor" allowing you in.

I'm a Mormon lurker. No bat signal needed to get some of us legally- and politically-inclined Mormons to read Althouse.

Romney currently has no more authority in the Mormon church than I do, as far as I know. I teach Sunday school for 8-year-olds. Romney did serve in a position of relatively high authority, but once you're done with a given position, you're done. Authority doesn't automatically accrue with seniority or anything. He could be asked to serve again, but until then he's a regular old member. His next position, once he has time to serve again, could be youth leader or sunday school teacher. It happens all the time that a former bishop goes back to doing run-of-the mill church service.

So the entire premise is faulty because Romney has no real church authority right now. But even so, the idea that the aw shucks niceness is fake and is a mask is just a guess by a bigot. There is a lot of real aw shucks niceness among Mormons. Sure, some people are fake nice, but to attribute that to Mormonism itself or to assert that it is a trait of Mormons generally is pure prejudice.

you guys want to scream "bigotry" without knowing what anyone's talking about.

You talk about this stuff as if we're all planning to marry some Mormons we just met last weekend.

What we're proposing is simply to evaluate Romney, Santorum, Gingrich, Obama, and anybody else on the basis of their policy proposals, their credibility, and their character.

If you think Mormonism is informative about any of those things, then you should be able to point out specifics with regard to Romney. It's bigotry when you ascribe some alleged group traits to all members of the group. And it's particularly strange in the case of a group whose members are generally considered highly functional.

The writer stares with glassy eyesDefies the empty pageHis beard is white, his face is linedAnd streaked with tears of rage.

Thirty years ago, how the words would flowWith passion and precision,But now his mind is dark and dulledBy sickness and indecision

And he stares out the kitchen doorWhere the sun will rise no more...

Some are born to move the worldTo live their fantasiesBut most of us just dream aboutThe things we'd like to beSadder still to watch it dieThan never to have known itFor you, the blind who once could seeThe bell tolls for thee

Beer in Utah still isn't full strength because of Mormons and you have to buy it at a heavily taxed "liquor store".

You can't buy liquor in the stores in Oregon. Beer and wine, yes. But not any other kind of alcohol. You have to go to a State Liquor Store which is usually in a pretty slummy section of town and the cost is through the roof.

Is the State of Oregon a Mormon cult too? I'd better tell my mother in law who lives in Eugene.

You know, there was a book. It was called ELMER GANTRY. It became a blockbuster movie, too. Starring Burt Lancaster.

People went to see that movie! It told the story of a faker. A "tent revivalist."

As for public showings of religious beliefs? I think it all went downhill from there. We haven't had a good story, yet, about the parade of political fakers we've seen. Well, except for Animal House. Where, when the credits roll, we see the John Belushi character became a US Senator.

And, back in 2004, John Kerry couldn't become president. Even though he ran against a jerk. It was the one time the GOP jerk was better than the the demorapic choice.

By 2006, Dubya stopped listening to Dick Cheney. And, he fired Donald Rumsfeld. He then pushed Condi Rice forward. So she could dance with the French on the Lebanese border.

Now the GOP seems to be arguing for "more religion." Watch the majority probably voting the other way.

"As for the cult nonsense, how could the same cult attract both Harry Reid and Glenn Beck?"

By appealing on the one hand to their vanity, on the other hand to their lack of self-confidence and on the third hand to their ambition. And on the fourth hand (cf. Siva) to their lust for acceptance, inclusion in a domineering, protection-seeming group. Reid and Beck both are defective.

Mormonism is Arianism modern. Were it Christian, Mormons would profess the Nicene Creed.

Yes, the thread is getting old, and maybe someone will respond to your questions before I do -- or maybe this thread really isn't the place for a discussion of Mormon doctrines. But, you asked, so I'll try to answer.

I'm a mathematician (PhD in discrete and combinatorial geometry, if that matters). Logic matters to me. I couldn't just ignore being asked to accept "crazy stories that make no sense" as part of the beliefs around which I build my life. There is a fairly wide range of beliefs regarding how Mormons look at the historicity of the Book of Mormon. First, nobody claims the "Lost tribes of Isreal" came to America. The book tells the story of descendants of mostly one family fleeing Jerusalem in about 600 BC, with side stories of two other pilgrimages as well. While I'd admit that most Mormons through church history have thought of the book as describing the ancestors of a large part of the native peoples of the Americas, there's nothing that requires that belief, and in fact I think science and archaeology have ruled it out. A more localized interpretation of the book seems more plausible. In any case, the history is not the important part -- the teachings are why the book is important to us. I don't fret about the teachings of the Old or New Testaments either, even though I know some of the geographic, historical, and scientific details are flawed and clearly drawn from folklore.

As for whatever you heard about the reasons for having lots of kids, there's nothing like that in our beliefs. We do believe that our family structures can endure to eternity, but we don't make the afterlife any better by having more kids.

The CoJCoLDS is structurally different from nearly all of the other groups it is compared to in this context.

It has a formal hierarchical organzation, like the Roman Catholi Church, but unlike nearly all other religions. But unlike the RCC, its top leadership nearly all have day jobs. Being a Mormon Elder is not a career.

So one can say things about Mormons and the CoJCoLDS that may or may not be true, but are not even applicable to other groups.

Lot of anti Mormon bigotry by the commenters on the Althouse blog. My guess is that Romney being a Mormon bothers the religious right wing of the GOP much more than it bothers indies like Althouse or Dems.

Jane,Mormons don't believe either of those things. The lost tribes thing resembles in some sense events recounted in the Book of Mormon, but your account isn't accurate. As far as children serving their parents in the afterlife, I've never heard such a thing. So your understanding of Mormon beliefs is mistaken, at least in those particulars. But certainly, you would find some of our beliefs to be unsupported by evidence, including the belief that Jesus rose from the dead.

That is hyperbole, surely. More than a little Olympian, too, is it not?

I try to understand what seems important, but I try to remind myself, also, that what seems is not more than that and also that whatever I understand, or think I understand, I stand under and am thus in thrall to, bondage, if you will, and finally, that whatever really is important cannot be stood under because it has no second to stand under it.

Perhaps that is an experience for which you are reaching. If so, be assured, you cannot make it happen. It gifts itself to you or not.

If you think Mormonism is informative about any of those things, then you should be able to point out specifics with regard to Romney.

I already gave you a link to former-Mormon who grew up with Romney, and is shocked every time Romney dismisses the "theodemocratic" ambitions of Mormons, being acted out through him. I live in Salt Lake, own a Book of Mormon, and my best friend is from a Mormon family.

The original reticence among Mormons to be open with their faith due to persecution from more mainline Christians has now, I believe, morphed into another reason for reticence --- embarrassment among a growing cadre of successful & well-educated Mormons at just how truly strange their theology is.

This happens among all faiths to some extent, but worse among those that don't have a history of apologetics to deal with deal with "faith seeking understanding".

When a religion becomes like the South Park "...because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people.." it's a faith that's dying.

You want to know a faith that got embarrassed by its doctrine and so became about family & good works? Reform Judaism. Brilliant hardworking people. Where would we be without them? But as a faith, it's getting swallowed up in politics & ethnicity, and it looks about as dead as any faith on the American scene today.

You can't buy liquor in the stores in Oregon. Beer and wine, yes. But not any other kind of alcohol. You have to go to a State Liquor Store which is usually in a pretty slummy section of town and the cost is through the roof.

Could you sit in a cafe and drink coffee? People had to fight for that in Utah. Do they adjust the alcohol level of the beer? Do you have to go out of state to get a "real beer"? Did you need a sponsor to go to a bar? Did the church call you at work before you had even unpacked your luggage?

Crack, I will concede the superiority of your knowledge of cults. But I don't see any evidence that Mormonism has led Romney to try to impose any Mormon practices on non-Mormons through government action.

All you're arguing about Romney, AFAICT, is that he's ambitious. Well, no kidding. Good luck applying that as a disqualifying feature of a presidential candidate.

According to the third comment on this thread, that would make you a supporter of whatever it takes for "the advanced race" "to prevail".

Come on guys. We've got some intellectual purity to defend tonight. Gingrichism's pyromania will only be so purifying. Some of you want a more satisfying form of purification, and I'd like to see you attain it.

@ Jim All you have to do to leave the church is send a letter stating your desire to the local Bishop.

Right. Send a letter. But to get your *name* actually taken *off* the roll? Ha! Well, that makes for some interesting stories.

I have problems with Romney on a number of levels. He is too much a politician. He says what he thinks people want to hear to get to where he wants to go. Not to mention Mormon missionaries will be insufferable.

But Obama chills me to the bone.

So I'll do what I can to get Congress on the right path and hope they can keep whoever in line.

Anyone else having trouble with the 200+ threads? On the front page, I see 200+ numbers, but click the comments and there's exactly 200, with no link to further pages like usual. The other 200+ threads recently are the same way.

Crack, I will concede the superiority of your knowledge of cults. But I don't see any evidence that Mormonism has led Romney to try to impose any Mormon practices on non-Mormons through government action.

Well, to do that would be stupid BEFORE ATTAINING POWER, now wouldn't it?

Look, all you have to see is an angry friend demanding a Mormon bishop leave his daughter alone to get the scales to fall from your eyes about what's behind the "nice" facade,...

That's a lot of faith you have, TG. But unfortunately we are not living in a George Lucas movie. No country's political system will reward a privileged, phony, out of touch, oblivious jerk just because he's got a perma-smile on his face and plastered hair.

Gen. Jack D. Ripper: I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

btw, that movie gets better every time you watch it. :D

"Oh-ho, that's much better... yeah... huh... yes... Fine, I can hear you now, Dmitri... Clear and plain and coming through fine... I'm coming through fine, too, eh?... Good, then... well, then, as you say, we're both coming through fine... Good... Well, it's good that you're fine and... and I'm fine... I agree with you, it's great to be fine..."

@ Paddy...The tools have been relocated. Just click on the orange header that pulls up the post and the fully written comments. Then pull down to the bottom of the 1-200 page. Voila, the 200-higher tool is now located there.

I should've said "all you have to see is an angry friend forced into demanding a Mormon bishop leave his daughter alone" because he'd told him before but Mormons (like most cultists) don't take "no" for an answer very easily.

@ DBQ Is the State of Oregon a Mormon cult too? I'd better tell my mother in law who lives in Eugene.

Naah. NC is like that too. It's because the STATE sells the booze and collects all the $$. They are called ABC stores here -- Alcoholic Beverage Control. Given our rich history of bootlegging ... makes perfect sense ;-)

The Donald endorsing Romney is about Trump recognizing that Romney is going to win the GOP prez nomination and wanting to get in on the ground floor (making a connection with the guy who may be the next prez of the USA). Trump is smart that way.

Mitt figured out how to wallop Newt, just remind GOP voters of the myriad Newt negatives. We'll see how smart Newt and his supporters are. There is no way Newt can win unless Mitt gives Newt as a pass on his past (and that ain't gonna happen).

"When a religion becomes like the South Park "...because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people.." it's a faith that's dying.

You want to know a faith that got embarrassed by its doctrine and so became about family & good works? Reform Judaism. Brilliant hardworking people. Where would we be without them? But as a faith, it's getting swallowed up in politics & ethnicity, and it looks about as dead as any faith on the American scene today.

That's Mormonism 100 years from now."

Brilliant point/insight. Cf. Tillich: the churches have become "moral clubs" and "sentimentalist." That is, not Christian. Christianity is edgy in every circumstance. Rather Iike Althouse is. Religion accepts no thing as final or ultimately valuable. That includes family and life itself. Also law, religion and morality.

Religion is radical detachment, ruthless renunciation.

Mormonism, however, never has been a faith. It is, like it's Arian progeniture, a human creation of remarkable ingenuity aimed at muting fear through self-elevation rather than disarming fear through self-surrender.

rigogeJim wrote:All you have to do to leave the church is send a letter stating your desire to the local Bishop.

This is interesting, Jim. What happens if someone just leaves?

Just to let you know where I hail from let me say that I'm inclined to support Romney. I believe he is better suited temperamentally for the White House than Newt, and he has much more managerial expertise than Santorum. Ron Paul has beenn channelling the ghost of John T. Flynn for many years, so he's out of the picture IMHO. I am a former believer, specifically Presbyterian. I was never firm in my faith, and for about 15 years I've morphed from bemused lukewarm Protestantism (though in all fairness Protestantism is itself at fault for morphing from religion into half-assed psychology) to agnosticism, and finally into rock-ribbed small "a" atheistic skepticism. I'm not a capital "A" Atheist asshat, at least I don't think I am. Oh, and one more thing -- I'm a Fancher on the distaff side. a lineal descendant of a survivor of Mountain Meadows.

There, now all that baggage is well and truly sorted out, on to the question: What if someone just ups and leaves the LDS church? Just stops attending services, stops paying tithes, etc. without the formal "letter to the Bishop" leave taking you mentioned. What would happen? When I left religion I didn't notify anybody, I just stopped attending church. Except for wedding and funerals I haven't been inside a house of worship in ten years. Nobody tried to reclaim me for Jesus. (Perhaps my former coreligionists don't care where I spent eternity, or they're too polite to argue with me. Who knows.)

What about the Mormon apostate who doesn't give notice? Please clarify.

And he's just going to issue executive orders shutting down all coffee shops, bars, and liquor stores?

Dude, cultism is a step-by-step process of control. It used to be that Scientologists didn't know about all the Xenu nonsense until they reached "Level Seven." Now that it's all being exposed online, that "church" is falling apart.

Mormons are engaged in the same deception:

As long as you don't understand what they're up to, the better.

And why, in your questions, are you cherry-picking what I'm saying and not taking it in it's totality?

The very fact mittens is having a hard time closing the deal against Newt w/all his baggage, tells you how much Reps like "flexible" willard. All of his reincarnations notwithstanding.

>

btw, voter participation is down 10% overall in the Rep primaries/caucuses so far, which is not good considering, unlike 2008, no Obama/Hillary competing for the independent vote. ie no enthusiasm for the Rep wannabes.

So Palladian, is it going to default onto you to defend freedom as nothing more than an expression of stinginess tonight, again? I guess someone's got to do it. And that approach is going to need some hefty, er, welfare, this election season.

TG: That's an interesting speculation regarding running mates. Not sure what people would make of a sequel of an unsuccessful first show, though.

Re: Mormons "denying the divinity of Christ," the statement that "Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself to the nations" is on Page Frickin' One of the Book of Mormon. Crack a book sometime, Einstein.

shiloh wrote:btw, voter participation is down 10% overall in the Rep primaries/caucuses so far, which is not good considering, unlike 2008, no Obama/Hillary competing for the independent vote. ie no enthusiasm for the Rep wannabes.

There are many ways to interpret mere statistics. Perhaps many Republicans are just looking forward to voting against Obama, and less interested in who the "Not Obama" candidate is.

I'll try to answer, if that's OK. Someone who stops attending is referred to as "inactive" among church members. Most inactive Mormons retain some level of belief, but just don't want to come to church for one reason or another. We'll try to stay in touch. They'll probably get calls once in a while because we try to look after one another. But there would not be (or should not be) any pressure. If they don't want the contact, they can request that, and we try to honor it. We really don't want to bother people that don't want to be bothered, Crack's horror stories notwithstanding.

The letter to your Bishop (it would actually go to your Stake President, I think) would be to remove your name from the church rolls completely.

We're all aware that Mormons claim the divinity of Christ. We're also all aware that what Mormons mean by the "divinity" of Christ is not at all what the Nicene Creed professing Christian churches (i.e. pretty much all of 'em) mean when they say the "divinity" of Christ.

I mean, I like the guy. I really do. But someone's got to level with him about the need for libertarianism to fend for itself. Time for it to be pushed out of the nest! Fly free, young ideology! Fly free! Papa Bird Ron Paul will accompany you on your first flight!

People demanding their kids be left alone, various impositions on other's freedom, hidden doctrines, ambitions to power, and - I haven't mentioned this yet - a LOT of child abuse. I've never lived anywhere with more child abuse than Utah. (The 5 Browns being the best known of the latest cases.) I'm talking child murder, sex with children, and kidnapping. There's much more going on than anyone imagines.

As people in Utah say, surrounded as they are by mountains, what happens in Utah stays in Utah.

And the Mormons want to keep it that way - and apparently, from the comments here, that's the way it is.

Here are some reasons that you are not persuading people about LDS:* We're not afraid of LDS. It will never take over the USA* LDS people we know are nice, work hard, and take care of their families* LDS is weird but we don't care, all churches are a bit weird

I don't want to argue with you but just want to explain why we don't agree about LDS. We are not ignoring you but just don't agree that LDS is something to worry about.

Romney will have the widest smile on his face when he presides over the sinking of the American ship of state. I mean, life will suck, he'll be cutting the country up into small pieces and selling/outsourcing us for spare parts. But he sure will look happy doing it!

Normal people call this a "shit-eating grin". Hell of an attribute you're looking for in a leader, guys.

Interesting that many people who have no problem with much more visible religious garb in many religions have an absolute fit about Mormons religious underwear. Or how about the ones who find no fault with Muslim praying in public but find it astoundingly gauche of the Mormons to be nice to people in public. Is there a way for a Mormon to be that Andrew Sullivan would NOT find loathsome?

I stated a definition of bigotry @10:46. Your response to that has essentially been that I and others are blind to reality. But you haven't offered anything about Romney himself except that he's ambitious and maybe not really as nice as he seems.

I don't plan to base my vote on the frequency of cases of child abuse in Utah, just as I don't plan to base it on the frequency of child abuse by Catholic priests.

You're absolutely right that Mormons don't accept the Nicene Creed. We consider it to be a product of an apostasy. No Mormon that I know would make any secret of the fact that we don't believe in the Trinity. We have no problem at all with anything in the Apostles' Creed, however.

If the Nicene constructs are the measure of your definition of Christianity, fine. My definition would be considerably more broad, and would include anyone who professes belief in Jesus as the Son of God and the one source of salvation from sin.

Well, no. Not Mexico. But assuming you're capable of being serious for a moment and putting aside "Personality Wars, Part Twelve", you should ask yourself why building the world's most populous nation's middle class, for them - when they have almost none of the rights that we do, should be America's #1 priority.

I mean, I know the rich get to save a few bucks that way. And a communist third-world country gets more money out of it. But you're trying to get Romney to run for a more, well, local office.

No, a really nice, pleasant, even-keeled black man have to go outside and angrily demand a Mormon bishop leave his daughter alone after she asked him to "make that man stop bothering me" - again. He was livid, because he'd told him before, and he and his daughter were sick of it.

And if you don't think, once Romney gets in office, they won't start swarming the country, think again:

I stated a definition of bigotry @10:46. Your response to that has essentially been that I and others are blind to reality. But you haven't offered anything about Romney himself except that he's ambitious and maybe not really as nice as he seems.

I gave you a link, twice, to a former Mormon who served with Romney. You either didn't look at it, or you're playing dumb.

Hegelian, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is God, his Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet they are not three gods but one God. They believe that Christ is of the exact same substance as his Father. If that's not the Trinity, what is?

The problem here, is that when your average Mormon (including most bishops, who are laypersons temporarily called to the unpaid office for a short term) doesn't actually *know* what the creeds say. He usually thinks the Trinity means Modalism. (He's helped here, by the fact that the average undereducated Protestant actually *is* an accidental Modalist.)

Believing the creeds to preach Modalism, Mormons say they reject them -- but they actually affirm their actual content. (See above.)

If there's a dime's worth of difference between Mormons' understanding of the Trinity (they use the biblical term "Godhead" to refer to it) and the currently-favored doctrine of Social Trinitarianism, I've yet to be convinced of it.

...and would include anyone who professes belief in Jesus as the Son of God

Once again with the obfuscation. "Son"."God". Words that mean very different things for me as Roman Catholic and you as a Mormon. The RC doctrine of divinity has more in common with Judaism than with Mormonism. Am I then a Jew?

You may disparage the Nicene Confession, but as far as the Christian community goes it's all the rest of us on one side and you, the LDS, alone on the other.

Implicit in the radical critique of orthodox Christianity by the LDS is that the rest of us were so fucking stupid we got it wrong for 2000 years. Nice bit of chutzpah, that.

And, ya know what? I don't think Romney can do any better than McCain. Plus, to get to 47%, McCain went and picked Sarah Palin. She actually BOOSTED his numbers, because a cluster of conservatives then came out to vote for McCain. Would they have just stayed home, otherwise?

Is turnout expected to be low in 2012?

You mean the advertising execs that helped Romney discover making Newt into a punching bag ... Won't be helping Obama?

This race, so far, is so uninspiring.

Plus, the Florida victory didn't amount to a hill of beans. Fooled me. I thought the victory dancing would last until next Monday.

Well, it looks like a Macho Man (and self-described anti-cultist, anti-New Age crusader) is having fun with the intense discussion concerning Romney's religious qualifications/disqualifications(?) for office.

Steve Koch wrote:I don't want to argue with you but just want to explain why we don't agree about LDS. We are not ignoring you but just don't agree that LDS is something to worry about.

Hear, hear! Well said and to the point.

All religions are cults if one wants to know the truth of it. The word has acquired a pejorative sense in the last hundred years, and effectively it means somebody else's religion, the somebody else being in opposition to oneself somehow.

I think highly of Crack. I read em and find his opinions both incisive and provocative. However I think he's generally mistaken on this Mormon cult business.

Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is God, his Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet they are not three gods but one God. They believe that Christ is of the exact same substance as his Father. If that's not the Trinity, what is?

NO! See the link to the LDS web site in my 10:20 posting above. They explicitly reject the Nicene formulation. I'm not putting words into their mouths!

And as for modalism & social Trinitarianism, well, that's just heresy of a different order. Of which there's no shortage in this day & age.

All religions are cults if one wants to know the truth of it. The word has acquired a pejorative sense in the last hundred years, and effectively it means somebody else's religion, the somebody else being in opposition to oneself somehow.

Bull. The pejorative sense has been attained through the work of cult apologists - there are people still trying to remove the stain on The People's Temple after they killed 900 people.

I'm not trying to be hostile -- sorry if it sounded that way. You certainly are sounding a bit that direction.

We disagree about the contents of a creed. But I'm not going to say anything negative about those who accept that creed. I don't know a single Mormon who doesn't respect Catholics and who wouldn't hesitate to acknowledge Catholics as Christians. And I don't even care that you don't return that favor.

As for "chutzpah", what value is a religion if you don't feel your beliefs are correct? Are Catholics showing chutzpah for their belief that the Jews got it all wrong?

Crack, The reason I've made no references to the Salon article that you reposted on your blog is that it's one of the lamest attempts at a hit job I've ever seen.

This appears to be the big reveal, though admittedly it's hard to tell what point either you or the author thinks is being made:

They traditionally hosted frat-like parties (Greek fraternities were banned from the campus) to raise a few thousand dollars for the college’s sports teams. But Cougar president Romney drove the young men to aim higher, orchestrating a telethon that raised a stunning million dollars. Romney’s position as head of the club was widely seen as a calculated steppingstone for a career in national politics.

So the big worry about Mitt is that he's been disingenuous about the extent of his political ambition?

Yes, I left out the Mormon belief that says it'll be up to them to save the US when the Constitution is hanging by a thread. There are those who think that the Constitution is under siege, if not hanging by a thread. Should they care if it's a Mormon who comes along to help?

I realize that you're convinced there's something there that you can see that I can't. But what I think I can see is that if the Mormons do indeed have a master plan to take over by sending their army of brainwashers out to get us, they'd be smart to wait until after this has been accomplished to run their Salt Lake Candidate. 'Cause then they'd be sure to win.

As a direct descendant of an early leader of the Mormon Church, my religious relatives in St George, Provo and Salt Lake City have never been anything but friendly, solicitous and helpful to my non-religious immediate family. Hardly what I'd call a cult.

But it really doesn't matter. I don't give a flying fuck what a candidate privately believes. All I want is a competent manager, especially one without grandiose ideas who can displace the disaster who is currently holding the Presidency.

I find it very interesting that you guys know more cult apologist responses than you know about cults themselves.

It's revealing of the problem this country faces. It's like the other day, when Ann posted on a NewAge death, and the major response was laughter.

You guys just don't get it.

These people can kill, molest children, disrupt others lives, impose restrictions on other's freedom - anything - and all you can do is argue for their rights, their freedom, their ability to have power over us.

'And if you don't think, once Romney gets in office, they won't start swarming the country, think again:'

That is not a statement to be taken seriously. I remember similar dire predictions about the religious right back in Ronald Reagan's day. Jerry Falwell was the big threat then. The 'papist' President Kennedy was supposed to hand the country over to the Vatican 20 years before that.

It also sounds to me like you just ran into a bad apple in your Mormon Bishop. There have been some really bad apples exposed among the Catholic clergy also. It defies logic to claim that the conduct of individuals acting in a manner that is condemned by their religion indicts their religion as a whole.

Crack, The reason I've made no references to the Salon article that you reposted on your blog is that it's one of the lamest attempts at a hit job I've ever seen.

Hit job? Anything less than fawning praise for their family orientation is a "hit job"? This appears to be the big reveal, though admittedly it's hard to tell what point either you or the author thinks is being made,..

The point is there's more going on than it appears. You take Christian "beliefs" seriously, do you not? (I do.) Why not Mormon's, or NewAger's? Why do they warrant benign praise, or laughter? Even when they kill or whatever?

So the big worry about Mitt is that he's been disingenuous about the extent of his political ambition?

No, of his cult's ambitions. I don't know about you but I don't want anyone with "theodemocratic" ambitions in the White House.

Yes, I left out the Mormon belief that says it'll be up to them to save the US when the Constitution is hanging by a thread.

Why? That's called "prophesy" - the Mormons are big on prophesy - which leads us to the possibility of someone delusional in power. Also not good. I realize that you're convinced there's something there that you can see that I can't.

Seriously, how much has cultism touched your life? The lives of your friends? I've lived in three cities that suffer under extreme cultism - Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Salt Lake - and have seen it all. I don't like this almost-cultlike demand we keep this dangerous nonsense going. We should just learn to reject it out of hand. Ever since the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi crossed the ocean, we seem to have become the most gullible of fools the world has ever seen.

But what I think I can see is that if the Mormons do indeed have a master plan to take over by sending their army of brainwashers out to get us, they'd be smart to wait until after this has been accomplished to run their Salt Lake Candidate. 'Cause then they'd be sure to win.

That is (part of) the plan. If you don't think changing our way of life isn't part of it, you're missing it. Some of it I welcome, as a conservative, but not like this.