GREENLEE: (Laughing) Well, I'll tell ya, you can make Tom Balanoff's day easily.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean, it was like that was the reason they came in, just to make sure I don't do Jesse Jr. (PAUSE)

GREENLEE: Yeah, well listen that's the best thing that could ever happen to you. If it, there's, if there's anoth-, a few more groups that really just don't want you to pick a particular person, you'll be in great shape. (PAUSE) I continue to think that you're not gonna, you're not gonna lose friends by not picking Jesse Jr. He's got a lot of enemies.

BLAGOJEVICH: Oh, yeah. Yeah, interestingly enough,you, you really don't gain much and you lose. If you're gonna go Jesse Jr go to another African American that's not gonna be, have the backlash you know?

BLAGOJEVICH: And if they treat me without, you know, any real, that they, they don't have any great interest in the Senate seat and they're not gonna offer anything of any value, then I might just take it. You know what I'm saying Bob?

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean the point is, you know I'm gonna,I'll be there, I'm gonna be in the springtime being impeached by the House with that wimp, gutless, spineless Cross unable to do anything about it. Okay? And I'll be saying to my, and I'll be kicking myself cause that U.S. senator I made and all those, and Obama and everybody else will be nowhere to be there intervening. You follow me?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm. Yeah I do.

BLAGOJEVICH: Now how much of that do I have to consider when I make a decision like this I don't know? But it's a factor is it not?

GREENLEE: It is a factor. And one you have to weigh heavily, I think.

BLAGOJEVICH: Why do you say that?

GREENLEE: Because if that becomes or becomes close to a reality...

BLAGOJEVICH: An impeachment.

GREENLEE: ...yeah...

BLAGOJEVICH: A political impeachment, not for anything real, just...

GREENLEE: ...no-no, just a purely political, crass, political impeachment...

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: ...because look, there's no rea-, you have no, I don't think any threat of a, a real impeachment, this would all be a political action. Then, it's a distraction you don't need and it hurts your chances in the long run.

BLAGOJEVICH: That's correct.

GREENLEE: You know.

BLAGOJEVICH: You know, that's you're-, you're long term thing is far more damaged by that than it would be by uh, appointing yourself senator, right?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm, absolutely. (PAUSE)

GREENLEE: You know, and better for them to say he appointed himself to avoid being impeached. Than to say he appointed somebody else, then got impeached.

BLAGOJEVICH: (Laughing) There you go.

GREENLEE: (Laughs) You know?

BLAGOJEVICH: Right.

GREENLEE: It's better, you know, better to keep your mouth shut, and appear stupid than open your mouth and remove doubt. So, you know, it's, I, I think if you really think impeachment's a real possibility...

BLAGOJEVICH: How am I gonna judge that? I mean I listen to Harris, he's a f---in', you know. I don't think it is, but I mean on the other hand if Madigan wants to do it he can do it. And Cross is absolutely no help.

GREENLEE: I mean the last thing you should do is hope for Cross to be any support.

BLAGOJEVICH: Right.

GREENLEE: ...you know. He's not, you know, Cross is a lot of things and none of them is, is a, you know, a stalwart friend in need. Just, you know...

BLAGOJEVICH: And what's his name, the speaker, uh or the president, Senate President Cullerton, he's up for re-election Mell says we're gonna run someone against you Cullerton unless you impeach my son-in law. That, it is an extreme thing I'm thinking. Tribune pushes the drum beat, what do you say to that?

GREENLEE: I think it, look, I'm very concerned. I think that it is very, it's very real, that if people want to take you down for political reasons, they will use every power at their disposal to do so.

BLAGOJEVICH: And I'm fearful we can't, we won't get an honest press. I'm worried about the press. In fact the Tribune will be driving it.

GREENLEE: Yeah. A lot of these things are, a lot of these things are real concerns. I mean look, I've, I've yet to see a fair story from the Tribune on you. So, you know for you to be fearful of the Tribune driving it is, I think, a well founded concern.

BLAGOJEVICH: Didn't they just advocate that I be impeached?

GREENLEE: They advocated you be recalled. I don't know that they've ever advocated...

BLAGOJEVICH: Didn't they just recently, on the family care thing.

GREENLEE: I would have to look again, but I don't recall them advocating you be impeached.

BLAGOJEVICH: How, how, how long would it take you to look into that?

GREENLEE: Um, it would take me about a half hour.

BLAGOJEVICH: It'd take you that long huh?

GREENLEE: Yeah, 'cause I just have to look for the right key words on these editorials.

BLAGOJEVICH: Well here, it was, it was within whenever that family care verdict decision came down. So, it was the middle of October.

GREENLEE: See I think they implied, said that it was, you know, that it was impeachable, they, you know, that people were without health care, but I don't think they said you had, you should be impeached. I don't think they made that (UI) on it.

GREENLEE: I would tell you when I did the search when they endorsed Madigan, for the House.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: Said, you know Michael Madigan opposes everything the governor does. Then they write the sentence: "Now is the time to form, an impeach-, ah, House committee to study impeachment of the governor," which is a totally gratuitous thing to say.

BLAGOJEVICH: The Tribune said that?

GREENLEE: Yeah. (PAUSE)

GREENLEE: But in the actual editorial,...

BLAGOJEVICH: And when was this endorsement of Madigan, how long ago?

GREENLEE: That was, um, a couple weeks ago, the 24th or so.

BLAGOJEVICH: So they're sayin' I should be impeached?

GREENLEE: They're saying you should form the committee.

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm.

GREENLEE: And in this healthcare article...

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm.

GREENLEE: ...they don't say that.

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm. (PAUSE)

GREENLEE: Said, they tried an end run around, he tried an end run twice, rejected by the governor's gambit. Next he tried an end run around Epstein. Wednesday, Epstein re-, rejected it point blank and said the ruling doesn't apply, it's time to get on complying.

BLAGOJEVICH: How did we end run Epstein?

GREENLEE: By, you know, doing a motion for stay.

BLAGOJEVICH: How's that end running? That's just goin' to court.

GREENLEE: I don't know. That's, that's why, look that's where they say "Give it up, you were reckless and wrong from the beginning, you have little to no chance of prevailing in court", um,... (PAUSE) (Television audible in background)

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, but that editorial does, on endorsement of Madigan. (Sighs). (PAUSE)

BLAGOJEVICH: How 'bout Nadler's on a tape, Jerry Nadler, explaining to these Jewish women in Boca Raton about Reverend Wright's church and why Obama stayed there for years. And then Ra-, Nadler sayin' well 8,000 people in his district, you know, he, he lacked the political courage, he couldn't leave. (PAUSE).

GREENLEE: I think that's crazy.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah. So the Tribune endorsed Madigan...

GREENLEE: How ugly to say that.

BLAGOJEVICH: (speaking to wife)... couple weeks ago and then in the extra, editorial endorsement they say as opposed to everything I tried to do, now it's time for Madigan to convene a committee of impeachment. Tribune, two weeks ago, when they endorsed Madigan.

P. BLAGOJEVICH: Huh, you know what, I would just, who are you talking to?

BLAGOJEVICH: Greenlee.

P. BLAGOJEVICH: Tell him to hold up that f---ing Cubs s---. F--- them. F--- them. Why should you do anything for those a--holes? Sam Zell. What kind of bulls--- is that?

BLAGOJEVICH: What do you think of that, ah, Greenlee?

GREENLEE: Look, if there, there's a part of it that really, that you know I feel, I agree with, you know. I mean now Zell will tell you he doesn't do anything that, ah, you know he doesn't do anything with the editorial over there, he's just a business guy. But I would tell him look, if you wanna get your Cubs thing done, get rid of this Tribune, you know.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: I mean they're not sayin' that they think they should impeach. They previously editorialized that they should not impeach. (PAUSE).

BLAGOJEVICH: Well, another consideration when I come to that Senate seat. Don't you think Patti? I'm gonna spend all year dealin' with the Tribune advocating that they have a committee on, to look into impeaching me. Right Greenlee?

GREENLEE: I mean here's the, if you wanna get a sense for how just completely out to lunch the Tribune is, on David Miller they put in a parens here, "He's also the only dentist in the legislature. Can he extract a governor", question mark.

BLAGOJEVICH: Can he what?

GREENLEE: Extract a governor, question mark.

BLAGOJEVICH: Extract, what does that mean?

GREENLEE: You know like extracting a tooth.

BLAGOJEVICH: Oh, he's a dentist. Can he extract a governor? It's in their ed-, in their endorsement of him you mean?

GREENLEE: Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: Tell Patti this, hang on. (PAUSE)

P. BLAGOJEVICH: Hello.

GREENLEE: Hey.

P. BLAGOJEVICH: Hey.

GREENLEE: So David Miller, who's a dentist, in his endorsement by the Trib, they say, you know in a, they say he's a quality legislator, well versed in education, health care, and human service issues, parens, he's also the only dentist in the legislature, period. Can he extract a governor, question mark, end paren.

P. BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: This is (sighs)...

P. BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: These are awful.

P. BLAGOJEVICH: I know. Yeah. Screw them and their Cubs. You know.

GREENLEE: Hey look, you know...

P. BLAGOJEVICH: Wh-, what are we settin', settin' up (UI).

GREENLEE: ...I don't mind helping Zell, but Zell should just get rid of these guys. They should just sell the f---ing paper to somebody.

P. BLAGOJEVICH: Or just fire 'em. He owns the paper. I mean what would, ah, William, William Randolph Hearst do? Say, oh, I can't interfere with my editorial board.

GREENLEE: Yeah.

P. BLAGOJEVICH: They're hurtin' my business. I mean if his papers were hurting his business, he'd, you know, do somethin' about the editorial board.

GREENLEE: Yeah, well that, I mean they've lost all impartiality.

P. BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: It's awful.

P. BLAGOJEVICH: Okay, here.

GREENLEE: Absolutely awful. (PAUSE)

BLAGOJEVICH: (To wife, it's Nadler, listen). Look, put together all the stuff they say along those lines. Let's have Harris or somebody go to, you know Crane Kenney, say someone's got to go to, and that Nils. And you go to Zell and say, you know we got some decisions to make now. (PAUSE)

BLAGOJEVICH: And I don't know, ah, you know, with the Tribune driving this stuff and Madigan tryin' to screw me it's gonna make it hard for me to govern if I gotta deal with this.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: You know you guys have to make a decision. I mean let's, let's think about that. (PAUSE).

GREENLEE: Yeah you gotta...

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean, how do you...

GREENLEE: ...be careful on how you do that, but yeah. (PAUSE)

BLAGOJEVICH: You know someone should say get rid of those people. You know we wanna help you on this, but I mean we, we may not be around. I mean this, this, if this is the dynamic, f---, he'll just become a senator. F---in' let Pat Quinn get you this Wrigley deal. (PAUSE)

BLAGOJEVICH: What do you think?

GREENLEE: Yeah, look, I, you know, this, I gotta tell you I think there's a lot to, there's a lot to say in that. You gotta be very, gotta be very cautious on how you do it, but...

BLAGOJEVICH: I'm not gonna do it.

GREENLEE: You know be cautious on how, on how you get Harris to do it, but I gotta tell ya I believe it. I believe the sentiment.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, but not when I keep talkin' like this, you know all the more reason Obama should win, take the Senate seat.

GREENLEE: Yep.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean I just think we should put all this together then Harris or somebody goes and talks to him and say look, we've got decisions to make now. Okay?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Movin' this stuff forward, you know, goes to Nils or whatever. Okay. Someone's gotta go to Zell, we wanna see him. This is, you know we, we dealt with all their bulls--- all this time. It's f---in' outrageous. And they do, you know, gratuitous thing like "extract a governor".

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay. They're, it's a political f---in' operation, in there.

GREENLEE: Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: And we're goin' out of our way. What do you think?

GREENLEE: I agree with that. I mean I think you gotta, I mean it's, Harris has gotta be very sensitive on how you do it but you gotta say look, we're ah...

BLAGOJEVICH: What's, there's nothin' sensitive about how you do it. What, just straight forward. What, what's so sensitive about it?

GREENLEE: No, I don't disagree with that. You just...

BLAGOJEVICH: Straightforward. We're goin' out, we're doin' this stuff for you. We believe this is right for Illinois. But this is big deal to the, to Zell financially.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay, we've worked every step of the way. We've gone around the Legislature and found a way for the very reason they want me impeached.

GREENLEE: Yep.

BLAGOJEVICH: Your f---in' paper. Okay. Maybe we can't do this 'cause they'll, this will be the grounds to impeach me. (PAUSE)

BLAGOJEVICH: You know what I'm sayin'? That's the point.

GREENLEE: Yeah, no I agree with that.

BLAGOJEVICH: And maybe we can't do this now. Fire those f---ers.

GREENLEE: I like the idea of you going in there and you saying, I'm not sure that we can do this anymore because we've been getting a ton of these editorials that say look we're going around the Legislature, we gotta stop, and this is something the Legislature hasn't approved.

GREENLEE: But...you know you end up, at least then you end up pushing it, you end up saying look, you know, I thought it was worth it to you. (PAUSE)

GREENLEE: How do you like that? Okay, I'll pull those together.

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay man.

GREENLEE: Okay. Talk to ya.

BLAGOJEVICH: Alright.

GREENLEE: Bye.

DATE: 11/4/08, 11:28 a.m

ACTIVITY: Rod Blagojevich home line outgoing call.

SESSION: 212

SPEAKERS: Rod Blagojevich, Robert Greenlee

BLAGOJEVICH: Hey.

GREENLEE: Hey. (PAUSE)

GREENLEE: So how do you feel about tonight?

BLAGOJEVICH: Emil's at 8:20 , you know.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Maybe spend one minute at that rally, that celebration just to say I was there.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Then slip out and go do the TV. What do you think?

GREENLEE: I think that sounds good. (PAUSE)

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: I mean they don't, they're not opening anything up until, until 8:30 , so, the timing sounds about right. (PAUSE)

BLAGOJEVICH: Well, alright.

GREENLEE: So, so I had a thought.

BLAGOJEVICH: Huh?

GREENLEE: Tell Obama you won't, you're, you're not gonna give him his choice unless he let's you play basketball with his group.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: (Laughing)

BLAGOJEVICH: Ah, Greenlee look into those ambassadors.

GREENLEE: I will. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look into it today and I'll give you a prioritized list.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, that's good.

GREENLEE: So.

BLAGOJEVICH: Alright, buddy.

GREENLEE: Okay, I'll talk to ya.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, bye.

GREENLEE: Bye.

DATE: 11/4/08 12:19 p.m.

ACTIVITY: Rod Blagojevich home line incoming call.

SESSION: 218

SPEAKERS: : Rod Blagojevich , Robert Greenlee

BLAGOJEVICH: Anyway, O-, Obama's gonna win a landslide and we'll just operate under that, and I'm on the phone with Doug. He's always f---ing fighting against, I can't take the Senate seat. And I can't stand that, his attitude. What's his f---ing, angle, what's his motivation? He says, "it's gonna be awful, everybody's gonna resent you for it", you know, and then, he's making it sound like my fellow senators would resent me, which I find ridiculous.

GREENLEE: Yeah, I, I find it ridiculous that your fellow senators would care.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: Um, look, you know, I don't think he has a motivation. I'm, I'm sure he's just giving you his opinion.

BLAGOJEVICH: Oh he's got some, there's some motivation in it on him. There's somethin', he's generally got my, he's got a little motivation, I don't know what it is. He's worried Quinn's gonna in-, institute all kinds of investigations. He'll, he'll order investigations on every contract that we issued...

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: ...he's saying that. Okay, so let, let's analyze that, war game that. What about that? So what? U.S. Attorney's looking at 'em anyway.

GREENLEE: Yeah, it's, I mean, look, if you wanna look at the crassest possible motivation, then he has, like, you know, it's harder for him to keep clients.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean, yeah, isn't it?

GREENLEE: Yeah, but...

BLAGOJEVICH: Isn't that what they're thinking?

GREENLEE: I re-, I mean, look, I would suspect that's the, you know, that's the crassest motivation. I gotta tell you,I don-, I would expect more from him and I, I guess I'm hesitant to say that that's his motivation. That may just be his opinion.

BLAGOJEVICH: It's a sub-conscious thing. He's a great guy. He's not, this is not a bad thing on Doug. I, Doug is a good, good person, but sub-consciously, I think he's trying, he, his first reaction is, ooh, I don't want him to leave, I don't want him to, you know, and so now he's trying to, just quickly, his mind is operating, coming up with reasons on why it's bad. You know, and I yelled at him, and I said, "you know...my upward trajectory is f---ing stalled if not f---ing terminally wounded, you know, by Obama now." Okay?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: You know? "For the last, better than two decade, uh, you know, decades, I've made decisions at the expense of my family's best interests, for my political career and you, you know, my job as governor." You know?

GREENLEE: Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: And, you know, "because I'm, you know, the, this, his election blocks me now from any immediate upward mo-, move mentor, you know, maybe never have any upward movement. Then, you know, now is the time for me to put my f---ing children and my wife first, for a change."

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Does that make sense Qui-, Greenlee?

GREENLEE: Yeah. Look I, that's how I feel strongly.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah. You know... f--- Bill Knapp and f---ing Fred, and all these f---ing consultants who I listened to at the expense of my f---ing family. Okay? And then I, I started venting...you know, part of my vent was, "yeah, and what have I gotten for-? Oh, the people are gonna f---ing be mad and the f---ing newspapers are gonna rip me for this?" Okay? "I f---ing busted my ass and p---ed people off and gave your grandmother a free f---ing ride on a bus. Okay? I gave your f---ing baby a chance to have health care. I fought every one of those a--holes including every special interest out there, who can make my life easier and better, because they wanna raise taxes on you and I won't, I, I fight them and keep them from doing it. And what do I get for that? Only thirteen percent of you all out there think I'm doing a good job. So f--- all of you. Not to mention the fact that I'm a f---ing, criminal investigations and my family's in jeopardy."

GREENLEE: Yep.

BLAGOJEVICH: "I should worry because, you know, the 13 percent who approve of me might, I might lose them too?" (Laughs) You know what I'm saying?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm. I, look, I gotta tell you... I'm not, I'm not moved by that, I mean I think it means it makes it hard if you were gonna try to run again, for that position. It's ha-, hard, make it harder to hold it, so you have time to regain that. The uh, the only worry you have, and this is maybe where Doug's going is, you have to worry, will they, you gotta make sure they seat you.

DATE: 11/5/08 12:21 p.m.

ACTIVITY: Rod Blagojevich home line incoming call.

SESSION: 284

SPEAKERS Rod Blagojevich, Robert Greenlee

BLAGOJEVICH: Hey.

GREENLEE: Hey, what's goin' on?

BLAGOJEVICH: What's goin' on with you?

GREENLEE: Continuing to do research.

BLAGOJEVICH: What'd you find out about Families USA?

GREENLEE: So, it was founded by two guys, one was an entrepreneur.

BLAGOJEVICH: No, but how much money does the guy make?

GREENLEE: Oh, I'm still looking, it's hard to find people's salaries online. The other thing you should know...

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: ...is when you're the, when you're the president or CEO of one of these agencies...

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: ...it also, you know we talked about the board director game,...

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: ...it opens that up.

BLAGOJEVICH: I can do other things.

GREENLEE: Yeah. Well, the ah, the lady, whose the director, the president of Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: Is on two corporate boards and makes around $250,000 a year on those, in addition to her salary.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, see that's what we'd want. That's it.

GREENLEE: So that, that's if you get into one of these things, you get into that game and then you start really, you know there's a multiplier effect.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: So, so you should probably make it clear that that would be another part of the game.

BLAGOJEVICH: That's right.

GREENLEE: So, so you gonna come down here for this ah, for this thing today?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: Okay. :

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay. Now keep lookin' and I'll be down there soon and we can do this and then... I'm tellin' ya that Senate seat though, parachuting into that Senate seat... They're gonna ask me today and I'm gonna say I'm not considering myself. That's the plan, you know I have no plans to consider me.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Huh? How's that answer?

GREENLEE: Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: Because that still leaves open if I, to change my mind.

GREENLEE: Yeah, you say you have no plans to...

BLAGOJEVICH: I have no plans to consider me. I'm not talkin' to me (UI) vote. If, if that was the case we wouldn't go, I wouldn't go through all of this. How's that?

GREENLEE: I think that's,...

BLAGOJEVICH: Huh?

GREENLEE: ...I think that's the way you say it if that was the case.

BLAGOJEVICH: I like my job. You know there's all kinds of things you can do as governor. That really are important. But I'm gonna make my criteria that my senator...has to be one committed to health care, especially for children.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: What we did in Illinois should be done all across America. There are million kids without health care, without access to health care. In Illinois every child has access to, to get health care...that's a moral obligation. Okay.

GREENLEE: Yep.

BLAGOJEVICH: I gotta say that and whoever that senator is that's the single most important thing I'm lookin' for in, in the next senator someone who's gonna be an advocate, an effective advocate and be able to get this done working with our President. What do you think of that?

GREENLEE: I think that's great.

BLAGOJEVICH: Um, I need this fast. Find this out. Any other state have All Kids or are we the only one?

GREENLEE: Any other state have All Kids?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, we're the only one that has All Kids or have others done, followed us?

GREENLEE: I will, I will find that out. You know Massachusetts has it's kind of universal health care program.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: As does Vermont. But I'll see, I'll make, I'll make sure we're the only ones that have that, that kind of All Kids model.

BLAGOJEVICH: Well, the question is are we the only state that provides comprehensive health care to, access to every child. That's the question.

GREENLEE: Yep, I will find out.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean I've been saying we're the first, first state, for a while I've been saying first and only state. Are we or not?

GREENLEE: Right now we should be sayin' first. Because if Massachusetts provides health care for all...then they will be able to do it too. I just, I need to confirm it. So, let me, let me look at it I'll call you back in two minutes.

BLAGOJEVICH: Well just do it right now and I'll call you back. I gotta get in the shower and I'll call you.

GREENLEE: Alright, sounds good.

BLAGOJEVICH: Get me the answer though.

GREENLEE: Uh huh. Will do.

BLAGOJEVICH: Alright. Bye.

GREENLEE: Bye.

DATE: 11/6/08 9:05 p.m.

ACTIVITY: Rod Blagojevich home line incoming call.

SESSION:358

SPEAKERS: Rod Blagojevich Robert Greenlee Patti Blagojevich

BLAGOJEVICH: So you feel good about things? Are we moving forward on anything or what?

GREENLEE: I feel good about things, you know, I feel like…

BLAGOJEVICH: Am I gonna be the new s-, secretary of Health and Human Services? Is that what it’s called? HEW, what's it called? What is that thing?

GREENLEE: HHS.

BLAGOJEVICH: Huh?

GREENLEE: HHS.

BLAGOJEVICH: HHS. I should know what it, Health and Human Services right?

GREENLEE: Yep.

BLAGOJEVICH: Am I the next Donna Shalala.

GREENLEE: You put it that way, you make it sound like it does not sound like something you would want.

BLAGOJEVICH: (Laughs). I wanna tell you the answer is no but it was good, was a good meeting today.

GREENLEE: (UI).

BLAGOJEVICH: Good.

GREENLEE: It's gonna be a no, but at the same time you made sure they understood what you needed. You know?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yep.

GREENLEE: Set the bar.

BLAGOJEVICH: They know that I, I could do it for her.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: They also know I want something.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: And what I’m looking for is commensurate with what I, you know, place to be.

GREENLEE: Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: They also, I've also made it clear to Balanoff, you know, that par-, I can parachute in myself. I would, you know, that’s a...

GREENLEE: And you made it clear by talking about the, the scars that you've paid.

BLAGOJEVICH: The scars yeah.

GREENLEE: That the real, the, the ultimate issue you have is that you got a guy trying to take you down and kill your legacy and the legacy that you worked with them to build up.

BLAGOJEVICH: Worked with who to build up?

GREENLEE: With SEIU.

BLAGOJEVICH: Right.

GREENLEE: You know, so, they're gonna say to themselves, well there's a, there's an opening here. You know, and maybe we can find a way to, maybe we can find a way to work this out.

BLAGOJEVICH: That’s a better scenario for me than anything this president and his candidate can do. That’s based on what they offered me. I then said, you can do something that would be better than even the "Madigoon" play. And that is that.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: In other words I could, I would do that, over the "Madigoon" play. I didn't say it directly, but that's the, the point, you know what I’m saying?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: They will come back and say, can’t do that, right?

GREENLEE: Yep.

BLAGOJEVICH: But they now know I can do her, if I get something. And the qu-, now... Right? If they don’t care at all, fine, they just say forget about it. Then don’t, right? But I’m not so sure they’d do that. I mean I’m not so sure that, I just think she really wants it and he wants her to have it. Don’t you?

GREENLEE: Um, I, I am sure of that. Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean if you’re him, don't you want, like one of your best friends as a U.S. senator, that'd be great. For you. For your politics.

GREENLEE: Do I want, do I want my wife's best friend and my wife happy about it forever?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, I can’t speak to the wife relationship. I can’t say that, I can’t speak to that, I have my own situation as you know. My own family issues. Okay, and Patti’s important to me, but... Hey Patti, if you really wanted a U.S. senator, you think I’d really just do it cause you wanted it? Patti?

P. BLAGOJEVICH: No, but (UI).

BLAGOJEVICH: But see Patti says, right, Patti says no I, I wouldn’t. Maybe Obama’s more henpecked than me.

GREENLEE: But the other, the other thing you got is, it's good for his politics, it's also good for his politics with Daley. You know, Rahm's good for his politics with Daley, that is too.

BLAGOJEVICH: No, I’m talking about Valarie Jarrett.

GREENLEE: No, I know, so am I. Jarrett used to work for Daley.

BLAGOJEVICH: She’s supposedly very close...

P. BLAGOJEVICH: (UI)

BLAGOJEVICH: Right Patti can't even get me to say complimentary things about her sister, much less like put her best friend in the U.S. Senate. You know what I’m saying?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, so the question is, if he, if he’s anything like me, forget about it. The Valarie Jarrett thing doesn’t matter to him, unless it’s him. If you’re saying because Michelle cares about her.

GREENLEE: I think he cares about her too. And I think the reality is...

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm.

GREENLEE: ...he wants somebody that he knows.

BLAGOJEVICH: That’s what I think.

GREENLEE: You know?

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm.

GREENLEE: And she’s not, she’s not connected to anybody she's not (UI).

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm.

GREENLEE: You know?

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm.

GREENLEE: Well he, he's gonna want it. This is good. he's not gonna put it in front of things that will out, outright hurt 'em. If it's something he doesn't care about, he would do it

GREENLEE: Look, it's the same, the same thing that I, you hear about with everything else. They are, why would they not have initially invited you to the, to this thing?

BLAGOJEVICH: They invited me, they always did. That was Madigan putting the s--- out. I was always invited. You honestly think they’d snub me? No way.

GREENLEE: I’m not sure about that.

BLAGOJEVICH: You’re wrong, no way.

GREENLEE: I'll, I'll show you the email.

BLAGOJEVICH: What email?

GREENLEE: So I, you know we had, we went to Knapp.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: We asked, whether they were invited? And ah, and Knapp, and Knapp said ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they were invited, you know he called An-, he talked to Anita and then he called back. So we're getting cred-, credentials on Tuesday, you know, Knapp calls me he's like, you know, Anita's freaking out now 'cause, you know, when we said we we're invited, they, they said that was on the assumption you guys weren't coming. And I was like well, we're coming. You know, Knapp's of course like I don't give a s--- what they think. So they're freaking out a little bit.

BLAGOJEVICH: So what, what email are you talking about?

GREENLEE: So when they got the credentials, Knapp shoots me an email, forwarding an email from Anita to him, that ah, you know, when their, their political people send to Anita, look they're asking for the press credentials. Anita sends an email to Knapp that says WTF. (UI)

BLAGOJEVICH: What's WTF mean?

GREENLEE: What the f---.

BLAGOJEVICH: Go ahead.

GREENLEE: And then Knapp forwarded it to me and said you're getting my, you're, you're getting my partner really p---ed off at me.

BLAGOJEVICH: Well, okay. Huh?

GREENLEE: Just so you know, Knapp said one way or another, I don't care.

BLAGOJEVICH: And you poin-... What are you telling me?

GREENLEE: I’m telling you that they, if they'd a had their druthers, they would've rather not invited you. We made sure you got invited. You know, and when push comes to shove, obviously they invited you. They didn’t want the issue. But if they had their druthers,they wouldn't have invited you.

BLAGOJEVICH: See, I don’t believe that. I don’t think it matters at all. I mean I was back there. I was easily invited, it was just me and Daley back there, right?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: There was no, no other constitutional officers.

GREENLEE: Yeah. I’m not sure they necessarily would've invited the other constitutional officers either. But, look, end of the day, you're right it shouldn't...

GREENLEE: Let me ask you the question. If they, if they don’t, if they don’t give it to you, which by the way, I’m gonna tell you, there's nobody, there's no governor more qualified than you.

BLAGOJEVICH: Correct.

GREENLEE: Right?

BLAGOJEVICH: Right.

GREENLEE: So if they don't...

BLAGOJEVICH: I don’t know about qualified, qualified's one, I’m not sure about that. But in terms of a record of accomplishments in that area.I’d say yes.

GREENLEE: But, see, for me, qualified is entirely determined by the record of accomplishments.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, okay, fair enough.

GREENLEE: Um, there's nobody more qualified than you. So if they don't give it to you, and it's because of Rezko, that tells me that they have an outside worry about Rezko because you and I agree, they have no reason to just, they have no reason to care about Rezko.

BLAGOJEVICH: Right, no. If they don’t give it to me it's because of Rezko, but not because an outside... It’s because of Rezko, and Chi-, Illinois, and too much and other commitments. It’s not just one thing. Rezko is part of it, no doubt. But I wouldn’t call it an outside, outsized worry. It’s not, ah, see what I’m saying, don’t exaggerate the worry. It’s not so big.

GREENLEE: I’m not saying you're worried about Rezko's thing because you have a big worry, I’m saying they worry about Rezko...

BLAGOJEVICH: No, you’re wrong. I don’t believe that. They don’t have an outside worry about Rezko on him...

GREENLEE: They don't care about him at all.

BLAGOJEVICH: ...from a PR standpoint. No, they do. He wants, this guy doesn’t want any bad press or anybody to say anything bad about him. Rezko is a major factor, no, Rezko is among the reasons why, what I asked for ain’t gonna happen. Okay? If there was no Rezko and I made that ask, still very possible, maybe likely, it doesn’t happen. That’s only one big spot, it's a big wide country. He’s already loading up with Illinoians and Chicagoans. Do you follow?

GREENLEE: Yeah, no, no, no I follow.

BLAGOJEVICH: He’s got other commitments and balances to take care of around the country. So without Rezko, this is a big ask.

GREENLEE: That's more realistic.

BLAGOJEVICH: What?

GREENLEE: That's the more realistic I would argue.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, that’s my point.

GREENLEE: Made promises elsewhere.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, and he’s got other needs and re-, and realities.

GREENLEE: You know?

BLAGOJEVICH: Therefore not an outside fear of Rezko.

GREENLEE: Yeah, I think that’s a very, I think that’s a very real point.

BLAGOJEVICH: Rezko will be a convenient excuse for them.

GREENLEE: Yep.

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay, but I made ah, huh?

GREENLEE: (UI) they may push for is that Deval Patrick. You know, the one they were talking about for attorney general.

BLAGOJEVICH: For Health and Human Services?

GREENLEE: Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: Who’s saying that?

GREENLEE: I'm, I'm saying that that’s a possibility.

BLAGOJEVICH: You’re just coming up outta, that’s, that’s you just saying that though, right?

GREENLEE: I’m saying it, I'm...

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah. But you don’t forget and here, he can’t give them a U.S. senator that he really wants, that he’s close to. You see that's the ace in the hole. The other one is, I can make me the senator.

GREENLEE: Yep.

BLAGOJEVICH: Which isn’t so great. You know, which isn’t, the end all for him. It's really me, youknow, it doesn’t really hurt him. But not the gr-, not a great solution from his point of view.

GREENLEE: No. :

GREENLEE: Look, all that, all that stuff we just have to see where they come out. I mean that's the end of the day, right? See what they come back with. What's your sense for where, just war gaming, what's your sense for where they come back?

BLAGOJEVICH: I don’t, I don’t know. I don't know.

GREENLEE: I was, I was kind of thinking through this before. This is where I thought they'd come back.

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm.

GREENLEE: Obviously they, I think they say, you know, can't be HHS, you know, maybe they say look we have, we already promised it to somebody, that's why we didn't do it, Rezko, blah, blah, blah.

BLAGOJEVICH: I believe that'll be what they say, yeah. They'll say that, I agree with that.

GREENLEE: You know. Um, and then they’ll say...

BLAGOJEVICH: How about in a year or two? They’ll say maybe.

GREENLEE: They'll say two years or maybe two years we find you, you know, something else. And then, you know, they offer you some other position.

BLAGOJEVICH: In two years.

GREENLEE: Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm.

GREENLEE: Um, and they say in addition to that, you know, we will get you the, you know, the federal money that they've already offered.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: And we’ll stand up with you and we'll try to, we’ll work with, we'll work with Madigan to broker getting a capital deal done. You know?

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm.

GREENLEE: I think they offer to, to try to broker something with Madigan. Cause I think they know that if they sit Madigan down and squeeze him, he would broker a deal. You know?

BLAGOJEVICH: He would?

GREENLEE: I think they assume that he would do it. Because he's not gonna wanna get crosswise with this president.

BLAGOJEVICH: He doesn’t care, what does he care?

GREENLEE: He cares.

BLAGOJEVICH: He doesn’t care, why does he care?

GREENLEE: He cares because there's a bunch of, you know, there's a bunch of his races, there's a bunch of s--- that gets, could be hurt by any, by a number of things that the president could do.

BLAGOJEVICH: Like what?

GREENLEE: President can, can f--- him in a lot of little races and in a lot of little ways.

BLAGOJEVICH: No, no. Listen to me, he's been speaker long enough, he’s had Democrat and Republican governor's, come, I mean presidents. It doesn’t mean a thing to him. Do you think Bill Clinton mattered to him? In fact...

GREENLEE: I think...

BLAGOJEVICH: ...he screwed Bill, you know, when Lapelle got close to Bill Clinton, that was it for Lapelle as party chairman. He took it away from him.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: And screwed Clinton and it didn’t matter to him at all.

GREENLEE: Yep. No, what, look, and I agree with you on a lot of that. I mean you don't think... I mean what can Obama offer you? That's the other question. He's gotta offer something.

BLAGOJEVICH: What you’re saying to me is a very plausible come back by them. I agree with what you’re saying. That, that, that is very plausible. But that is unsatisfactory to me.

GREENLEE: Because you say look, there's no way I can believe he would do it.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, get him to pass it all now, right now.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Get it all passed now. Then I'll, you know. That’s one option. They can, and they can’t get that done. There’ll be a delay game.

GREENLEE: I, I, I tend to think you're right. I tend to think, if Madigan thinks that he now has that card, he will squeeze them because he wants Lisa.

BLAGOJEVICH: Right.

GREENLEE: You know. And then they're gonna say well f---, this is, this is a problem.

BLAGOJEVICH: Right. All I gotta do is cut my separate deals with Lisa, Madigan and Lisa, and I can get it... send her there and you don’t get Valarie.

GREENLEE: Yeah. So, you know, that, I think that, then, then they come back and then they have to, you know, so what do they then offer? They ah, I think the idea that they would offer something in a couple of years, I think that's very true. But then you say well how do ya, how do ya make sure, you know, how do ya get any guarantees on that? You know?

BLAGOJEVICH: Right.

GREENLEE: And I’m not saying that’s unsatisfactory. That may be something satisfactory, but you need to figure out how you get a guarantee.

BLAGOJEVICH: Well let’s see what happens. I feel like you know, you just take one day at a time, try to execute. I mean I think I did as good as I could today.

GREENLEE: Well it sounds like you executed well today.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: You know. And they’re gonna…

BLAGOJEVICH: Part of our next plan has to be how does somebody get to Valerie Jarrett and let her know, you know, the governor's, he could do y-, you know, this could happen for you. Keep pushin'...

GREENLEE: Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: ...you could get this, you could get this.You know what I mean? Think about that.

GREENLEE: Yeah. Well I’ve been thinking that in certain respects, it might not be bad to have some people be seen to be entering and leaving your office. You know what I mean?

BLAGOJEVICH: About what?

GREENLEE: It might not be bad for you to have some people seen entering and leaving your office, just so it looks like there is a search process going on.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah we’ve got a little time on that, but yeah, you’re right.

GREENLEE: You know what I mean?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: So I mean, if you have two or three people come in, and you know, maybe they'll get real interviews. I mean people...

BLAGOJEVICH: I'm tryin' to promote Gutierrez a little bit more.

GREENLEE: You know?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah. Yeah.

GREENLEE: Have Gutierrez, have Tammy come into a meeting.

BLAGOJEVICH: Nah, it's not quite that, that’s, not that, more public. I'm trying to get Gutierrez, to elevate him in, in the, the newspapers and stuff, as a short list guy.

GREENLEE: Yeah. Though him coming in would behelpful...

BLAGOJEVICH: Coming in doesn’t mean that much. The, who cares, just put it out there in the press.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm. Well I think, and we'd do that, I think it's a question of, the timing and how,but we'd absolutely do that.

GREENLEE: They lobbied Washington. They, the, the general determination is you shouldn't lobby your husband's office. Outside of that you can lobby the rest.

BLAGOJEVICH: Damn.

GREENLEE: So, yes.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean why not just take that and do that for two years? Huh?

GREENLEE: Which? Doing which?

BLAGOJEVICH: Patti and I, we just move out to D.C.

GREENLEE: Look, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

BLAGOJEVICH: Huh?

GREENLEE: I said it's just, it's, well, you know, (clears throat) one more option.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, good man. You're a good man. Thanks.

GREENLEE: Okay. I'll talk to you.

BLAGOJEVICH: Bye.

DATE: 11/11/08 8:34 a.m.

ACTIVITY: Rod Blagojevich home line incoming call.

SESSION: 524

SPEAKERS: Rod Blagojevich Robert Greenlee

BLAGOJEVICH: Hey.

GREENLEE: Hey, what's going on?

BLAGOJEVICH: I need like, we have anybody who can write anything over there?

GREENLEE: We have (UI).

BLAGOJEVICH: We need to go get us like a speech writer or something.

GREENLEE: Sure.

BLAGOJEVICH: Maybe some young kid or something from college, I don't know.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: From a good school, who'd just be a good writer.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: You know, and I don't need formal speeches, but I need someone who just has a good sense of what you'd wanna put in, in remarks.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: So now I'm speaking on the environment, right?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: I, you know, I need to get briefed today or tomorrow on this thing.

GREENLEE: Okay.

BLAGOJEVICH: So I understand it better. But, you know, what would, what, what are the remarks they expect of you, you know, what do you say?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm. Why don't I do this? I will get our people to start writing up some,s ome simple remarks and I'll shoot it over to you by fax this morning.

BLAGOJEVICH: So, you know, here's what I know. Like there's an Indian proverb or something that says, you know, we don't ah, own our environment, we borrow it from the next generation, from future generations.

GREENLEE: ...on Monday.

BLAGOJEVICH: And then I told 'em push the trailer bill for the other four thousand, right?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: He's on a plane heading down there.

GREENLEE: Yep. He'll leave at 8:45 , but I can call him before.

BLAGOJEVICH: Alright, good. Well, why don't you just make sure you guys, you touch base with him and drive that.

ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: I think I told you about that. He just never sent the check, so I called him yesterday. I never heard from Magoon. I've left messages there. So I'm gonna quit calling. I feel stupid now.

BLAGOJEVICH: When's the last phone call?

ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Ah, two days ago. Two days ago, Monday.

BLAGOJEVICH: I'll call him.

ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Good.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah make it, a list of these that you call and sometimes they don't get back to you then, then last resort is I'll call.

ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Fine. I'll tell you what, let me put a list of those together.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: There's not a lot.

DATE: 11/12/08 2:14 p.m.

ACTIVITY: Rod Blagojevich home line incoming call.

SESSION: 572

SPEAKERS: Rod Blagojevich, Robert Greenlee

BLAGOJEVICH: Hey.

GREENLEE: Hey. What's goin' on?

BLAGOJEVICH: The pediatric doctors, the reimbursement, has that gone out yet or is that still on hold?

GREENLEE: Ja- eh, the rate increase?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: It's January first.

BLAGOJEVICH: And we have total discretion over it?

GREENLEE: Yep.

BLAGOJEVICH: So we could pull it back if we needed to, budgetary concerns, right?

BLAGOJEVICH: Hey Fred can, I, I'm on the other line though. Let me get, let me get this done. I just wanted you to just take a look at this and just see what, what you're thoughts are on it. 'Cause I just learned of it but, um, and but I want you to consider all the politics about Jesse, Jr. as objectively as we can.

YANG: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: And the deal that I might be able to cut politically with him.

YANG: Well see that's, that's the one thing I need to know more about is what exactly do you get from him.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

YANG: Like we know what we get, we're hopin' to get from Lisa.

BLAGOJEVICH: No, no, no. That's still the first option, but I'll drive a harder bargain.

YANG: Okay, no, no, no, right, right, right.

BLAGOJEVICH: And if I don't get what I want then I'm going to him.

YANG: Yep.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean, you know, I, I want, and the other thing is I, it does give me pause. She has zero support among African Americans and I'm gonna make her the senator. That's pretty bad, man.

YANG: Yeah, yeah, governor, governor, governor.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

YANG: Please, please, please. Um, I'm looking at the poll right now on line and yeah, it says she gets zero support but, um, you know the, the thing about it is I, I don't think she has zero percent support among African Americans if you say how, you know, do you like Madigan or not like Madigan. This is just in context of her versus Jesse.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

YANG: This doesn't mean they don't, they don't like or she couldn't get votes from blacks.

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm. No, I know that. Um, okay you want to hold a few seconds? you guys, why don't you guys chat, let me just do this real quick. Hang on.

YANG: Okay. (Call waiting)

BLAGOJEVICH: ...back. Hello.

YANG: (UI) okay, so we're...

GREENLEE: I'm expressing my concerns.

BLAGOJEVICH: About what?

GREENLEE: I don't know, I don't know how you can, justify, you know, talking about a deal with someone you know will not keep their deal.

BLAGOJEVICH: Well yeah I know that. We, we don't know, yeah, we have to assume that, that's all we can...

GREENLEE: But you know what I'm saying?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: Hasn't he told you more than once that he was gonna, he was gonna support you and then not done it.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, I know.

GREENLEE: (Laughs). I mean. So, well how could you possibly say, I'm gonna give you the biggest prize in the world and he'd say, of course, oh I'll do this for you, when you know twice before he said he was gonna do it and he didn't.

BLAGOJEVICH: No, but some of that tangible stuff can happen before it all happens. There are tangible things that can happen before. You see.

GREENLEE: Yeah, no, no, I know what you mean. But it's just...

BLAGOJEVICH: I'll tell you right now, if I had to make the decision, you know, you make the Lisa Madigan play, you get everything you want and then some. They turn it down, they don't get it done, fine, then it's Jesse Jr. I mean that's it. I mean Jesse Jr. or you know, or me. I mean...

GREENLEE: Ah... I told you what I feel on that, I would do you over Jesse Jr...

BLAGOJEVICH: Oh I know, but nobody else does.

YANG: So, ah, no I would. Fred Yang would. Hey governor.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah. Go a-...

YANG: Is this, is essentially the deal with Jesse Jr. will be that the Jacksons will support you for re-election?

BLAGOJEVICH: You know. Specific amounts and everything. And while, you know, I don't know that all of that is achievable, there is, some of it up front. But go ahead Fred.

YANG: Well um, I don't know. I, I mean, it's, it's, you know, we, we, just talked...I mean I need ah, ah... I've got to rely on your judgement and Bob's judgement and, and other people's judgement um, who you can talk to in private about this as to whether or not that's a good, that, that, whether or not the um, there's enough candy for you.

BLAGOJEVICH: Well that's right. That's part of it.But here, again, this is... You try to make the mega deal for the people and it, it falls apart, it doesn't happen. Okay?

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: Or they don't want it. Right?

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay, so then what's my fall back? Eric Whitaker?

YANG: Possibly.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah. Jr.'s better for me. Ah, Gery Chico, Gery's a much better guy for me. But politically he forcl-, you know, he basically, takes away most any ch-, opportunity to run whether I, if I...see, that option is basically gone. You agree with that?

YANG: Well no, it's our, it could be our problem because if you don't run for re election, you need something to do in 2011.

BLAGOJEVICH: Mark Kirk will owe me.

GREENLEE: (Laughs). Don't bet on that.

YANG: You know governor, so...

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

YANG: You'd, you'd, it'd be, it'd be great to have a U.S. senator in 2011 , who was friendly towards you.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah well Lisa Madigan won't be.

YANG: Ah, right because um, depending on things um, if Senator Madigan, yeah she'll not do anything for you but you'll either be running for re-election and winning or you'll just, you know, you're, you're just, look, we, you'll be better off having done, having had a great two years.

GREENLEE: More accomplishments means more friends.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, hold it. You guys are missing the point. The first option is getting things done for people. Look, you got two equally repugnant picks. Okay?

GREENLEE: Uh huh.

BLAGOJEVICH: Two of 'em. Two equally repugnant picks, on a personal level. However, I must say. Having ex-, some experience with both of them, if they were both drowning and I could save one, I really think I'd save Jesse. Just so you,, so that means, from a personal standpoint, he's less objectionable to me than she is. How do you like that Fred?

YANG: Yeah, yeah. But I, like we said, this is not personal, this is business.

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay, fine. So I'm prepared, you know, to honestly consider two people who I have personal objections to.

YANG: Yes.

BLAGOJEVICH: For the good of the people and other considerations.

YANG: Uh huh.

BLAGOJEVICH: She gives me the better opportunity for the public and for people. Therefore, it's the first play. But if they're not interested or you know, it just, if they can't, it's not gonna happen and I gotta believe their f---ing promises, forget about it. No deal.

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: So that I, what the question is, the fallback, what do I do? And I gotta compare him to puttin' me there? I gotta compare him to Eric Whitaker, I gotta compare him to Gery Chico? And then I gotta take...

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: ...okay. Politically, since I can't get anything done for people then what helps me politically.

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean that, that, that's all I'm saying. And, and I thought this through as well. If you can believe this guy, which is a big if. But maybe there's some conditions that we state in, in the announcement, that he's gonna be really active as a U.S. senator to help me break the log jam in Springfield. And hold the Democratic Party chairman accountable to get these Democratic principles done, he's got a bully pulpit and he starts advocating that right in the beginning, maybe there's some plus there, what do you say to that?

BLAGOJEVICH: Well I disagree with Bob. Bob isn't, Bob didn't get elected to anything, you know. And you know it's not, Bob's a very smart guy on policy and I don't dismiss or, ah, diminish...

YANG: Whatever, whatever, Jesse... Look, Barack Obama wanted ethics reform and Emil Jones tried to do it for him, it didn't work. And the guy's gonna be president of the United States. Why are they gonna listen to Jesse Jackson Jr. from Washington?

BLAGOJEVICH: Emil Jones did that. He did, he listened to Barack Obama.

YANG: Yeah but what about the House?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, they, they're, they already passed it. The House already passed it. It was an ethics bill that f---ed me, Fred.

GREENLEE: My point is, once he gets to D.C., he's gonna stay out there and he's not gonna come back and he's not gonna, he's not gonna get himself involved. And if you believe that about Obama, which I generally do, you believe that times over about this guy who's completely self-interested.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah. Well you cut a deal, a tangible deal right up-front and in the black community, I will be applauded and I'll have, they'll have my back, against a, against a bunch of white candidates and then, then you see what happens. Keeps my options open.

GREENLEE: So what worries me about that...

BLAGOJEVICH: It doesn't matter Bob, don't you worry about it. You know. Again, the first option is ah, Lisa, right now in second place it's either me or Jesse Jr. I mean he's ahead of Gery Chico, Gery Chico's the best pick Fred. But Gery does nothing for me, politically or governmentally. Does nothing for me. And you know, there's some nebulous thing that I have a senator who can get re-elected, and he might help me down the road, Fred. Okay. Maybe, but I haven't figured out what I'm doing down the road, that's the other problem., Right? Are you there, Fred? Hello? Greenlee?

GREENLEE: I'm here.

BLAGOJEVICH: We must have lost Fred.

YANG: No, I, I'm here guys.

BLAGOJEVICH: Oh okay. What do you say to that Fred?

YANG: I mean it's, it's hard to, it's hard to compare it cause I don't know exactly what... You're right, Gery Chico doesn't bring anything tangible but I don't know what Jesse's gonna offer you that's, that, that, that's... What, I don't know what tangible thing that Jackson would offer you that would be so great.

BLAGOJEVICH: His supporters, his supporters can be helpful.

YANG: Okay. Alright I hear you, alright, well...

BLAGOJEVICH: His supporters can be helpful.

YANG: That's good, that's good. And then it gets to Bob's question of can you trust him.

BLAGOJEVICH: Ah, I can't trust him any more or less than Lisa Madigan.

YANG: No, but that's not true, that's, yes it is, that's true, but when we talked yesterday, you said that you're not gonna make the appointment till you've seen tangible action by the legislature to pass your programs.

BLAGOJEVICH: Ex-, yeah listen. Fred, if, if we cut the deal with them, she's the one.

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: Listen, Jackson's not realistic unless, they reject the deal.

YANG: Right. No, no, I understand that. I'm just saying that you, you, that you can't, you can tell, I mean you can't trust either of them but you're gonna know, from when you appoint her that they've come through. I mean what kind of assurances do we have from Jackson that he'll come through.

BLAGOJEVICH: We don't. But Jackson, at least, covers me with my African American base.

YANG: That is true.

BLAGOJEVICH: I've got, I lose that if I send her. With him, I get that.

YANG: Okay, I agree, I agree with that. But then, why not Eric Whitaker then?

BLAGOJEVICH: Because he's, he's, an unknown African American whose not the uber African American. Jesse Jackson Jr. embodies black American politics because of his father. For better or for worse. He's got a base and network of political support that can, some can be helpful up-front and ah, then you, then you, you just see whether or not the guy, then it's a crap shoot.

YANG: Uh huh.

BLAGOJEVICH: But I mean you craft a deal where he's publicly advocating for our stuff and publicly going after, you know, the, ah, gridlock and the, and the principal architect of the gridlock. And part, that's part of the deal we cut. You gotta compare him only against the other ones. Not her. Hers is the whole deal. That's the first choice.

YANG: No I understand. I understand.

GREENLEE: Look, if your, if your question is him versus Gery Chico, sure. No question.

GREENLEE: I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think if you're saying, look he's gonna help me get any of our programs done, that I would say, I just don't...

BLAGOJEVICH: No ah, you're right, he's not gonna.

YANG: (UI).

BLAGOJEVICH: But he could be, he could be an advocate for us.

YANG: I gotta jump off in a couple minutes to do a call but here's, here's the question Bill Knapp asked me. Is, and we talked about this earlier governor. It's fine to speculate about Jesse and what they're gonna do. But un-, we've all agreed right, that, that the Jackson option only happens if the Madigan option doesn't happen. Right?

BLAGOJEVICH: Correct.

YANG: So what are we doing to make sure the Madigan option is at least gonna come to fruition. Are we gonna, they gonna make it, I mean who's, Bill wanted to know, for example governor and Bob, who our emissary is gonna be?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah I don't know yet. You know what? Maybe that f---ing horses ass, Harry Reid ought to be the emissary. You know, f--- you Harry Reid and Menendez. You guys f---ing do it.

YANG: What...

BLAGOJEVICH: Maybe they should be the ones.

YANG: What happened. Why, why ah, why not Rahm?

BLAGOJEVICH: I don't know. Let him call her. But Rahm, Rahm did, they want Jesse. They called, Rahm called Harris two weeks ago and said Obama, here's the four Obama would like. Jesse Jr., Hynes, Tammy Duckworth, and Jan Schakowsky.

YANG: Uh huh.

BLAGOJEVICH: Those are the four. And I gotta take 'em at their word. And if they think that's what they want, fine, we'll give you Jesse.

YANG: Alright.

GREENLEE: What do you...take 'em at their word? They gave you four, why not Tammy then?

BLAGOJEVICH: Tammy's the best person. But unfortunately, she's their candidate. So she's out. And so of the other three, Jr., because of my love for the black community, in spite of him. You see what I'm saying?

YANG: Uh huh.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean, look at it that way. If it just comes down, I just gotta pick one of the three. They're all, you know, to varying degrees, there's nothing left there for me. And I'm gonna go, to the African American community that I feel a special connection to. What do you think of that? So I'll hold my nose and I'll give 'em their guy.

YANG: Uh huh.

BLAGOJEVICH: Of those four.

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: Ah, you know ah, we, we got a lot of work to do. But, and the first option is the first option. I haven't figured out what or how to do that. I almost feel like, you know, maybe it ought to come to me. If they're interested, they should come to me. Why the f--- should I go to them? They should come to me.

YANG: Yeah but they know, probably assume that you don't, there's no way in hell. I've read the comments she made to the, I've read the comments she made to the radio station. She said she was interested but she thought there was a zero percent chance of you offering it to her.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

YANG: So if they think there's a zero percent chance of you offering it to her, why would they come and see you?

BLAGOJEVICH: Because the, the old man's a f---ing master of using third parties to probe and ah, test things. And ah...

YANG: I don't think we should play around. I mean I'm not there and I don't know him. I think, I don't think we should play around. If she's our number one draft pick, we go after her.

BLAGOJEVICH: Well I, I hear what...

YANG: You know, we're running out of time. And if you're gonna do these other options, let's just, let's just know whether or not she's available.

BLAGOJEVICH: Well ah, ah, I gotta know what my second, and third, and fourth fall back is. See that's the problem.

YANG: Well I think, we, we, we've got a good list of second, third, and fourth.

BLAGOJEVICH: So J-, well okay, so let's just say, as long as we're comfortable and I can settle in that my second option is Jesse Jr., versus me, you know what I'm saying. Is it me? Is it Whitaker, is it Chico, is it Jesse Jr., is it Gutierrez, is it ah, Whitaker, is it ah, you know, Lou-, ah, Louanner?

YANG: I mean to me the only, one of the reasons, one of the reasons commending Jackson over Whitaker is we know that Jesse Jr. wants it, we don't know if Eric Whitaker wants it.

GREENLEE: Fair point.

BLAGOJEVICH: Jesse Jr. wants it badly and desperately and he's the only one who's willing to like offer stuff.

YANG: Yeah, we get, we read about it every day in the paper.

BLAGOJEVICH: Ah, I don't read it. But...

YANG: No, no, we read about his, his wanting the Senate seat.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah. I mean look it Fred, God bless you and I love you man, and I know this is painful. And I'm not trying to chide you with what you told me. It's just business. I'm not doing that. I'm simply saying, if we're gonna look at it like business, the tremendous irony is,the two most personally objectionable candidates...

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: That are out there might be my top two picks.

YANG: Yes. No, I, I think and, well definitely one of them is your, is your top pick.

BLAGOJEVICH: And she's ahead because she can offer tangible things for people. The guy, the, the other guy is the better public, is, is a straight up political move. You can cut a political deal there.

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: Better than I can probably with anybody else. I can cut a better political deal with him, trust and verify, which means you need, and you need some down payment and all the rest if you want to be cynical about it. And with them you need a lot of down payment. You follow me?

YANG: No I mean look guys, I mean look at the, look to me then, um, okay. Here, here's the way I would sort of frame it in my mind, guys. If you, if you do Chico or you do, um, you, you're not running in 2010 at all. Okay?

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay.

YANG: If you do Jesse Jr., that tells me in my mind that what I always thought, you know, in my gut governor, that there's a15 percent, percent chance of you running in 2010 .

BLAGOJEVICH: That's right.

YANG: In my mind, that number goes up to like 340 or 40.

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay.

YANG: So...

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay, so I'm in a position of strength then to raise money between now and ah, you know the next election.

YANG: Well, in a, in a crowded Democratic primary, it's just, if you got the, if you got blacks with you, it's just, it's gonna make you a player immediately.

BLAGOJEVICH: It makes me the front runner.

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean if you got, if you got a black base like Obama and Jesse Jr., you're in a very strong position in a multi candidate race. Right?

YANG: But yeah, yes, but again, um... Look, who knows, if you, it's a ways away, you don't have to make a decision now, and I'm not even saying that's in your mind. In my mind though, the Jesse Jr. pick tells me that there's a, there's a, 30 to 40 percent chance that I would expect you to run for re-election in 2010.

BLAGOJEVICH: Uh huh, you're thinking right. I don't know if those numbers are right but I mean it's a heck of a lot more of a chance than if I don't. I think that's right.

YANG: Which, which, which um, other than the Phil Duffy meeting where, cause Patti wasn't there, you said, you were actually thinking about it more. I've never, I've, Bob, you know, you, you haven't been on these conversations of course, but you had your own with the governor. But look, you know, running for the third term has it's big challenges. But I told the governor, Bob, why would you want the job for another four years or two years. You know, it's just gonna suck.

GREENLEE: That's got to be the gating question is...

YANG: Right.

GREENLEE: What do you want to get done?

YANG: A third term would suck.

BLAGOJEVICH: I know. But I don't, ah, yeah, but we talked about, you win on Tuesday, and you f---ing...

GREENLEE: Right, right.

BLAGOJEVICH: ...we quit, we screw people on Wednesday and we, we f---ing quit on Thursday. But this time we really do it.

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

YANG: But look I'm, I'm... You know, I, I took me, you took me by surprise this morning when you mentioned him. And you know, clearly he's on your mind. I, I, I, I think ah, repugnant as it is to me, it's a very real possibility. I, I can't tell you right now governor if he's second, or third or fourth, but he's definitely in the mix.

BLAGOJEVICH: Good, Fred. And look, I'm gonna get up tomorrow morning and I guarantee you, I'll be sick to my stomach.

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: That'll be one of the first, I'll think about ah, you know, whatever, one of my first thoughts will hit me, when I'm coming out of my slumber will be that.

YANG: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: It'll be pain, it'll be sick to my stomach. Okay?

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: You know, and I know that that's the case cause I've had that for the last days thinking about Lisa Madigan.

YANG: Right.

BLAGOJEVICH: And you know, you know, I just feel like ah, one of the tactical mistakes I've made here...

YANG: Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: I've been too visceral in rejecting him.

YANG: Yeah, no you're, yeah, yes. But, but the point is, is you, you, he's not rejected for real, so he's still a definite possibility.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, correct, I'm, he's a...

YANG: So, so um, alright, I gotta jump off now but um, we'll, I'll think about this more um, and um, hey Bob, one thing that, one thing I forgot to talk to you about is ah, when we talked this morning, um, another thing the governor said he wanted in the deal.

GREENLEE: Yeah.

YANG: Is something to do with small business.

GREENLEE: Uh huh.

YANG: So I'm gonna make some calls and look um, but you should also have some of our staff folks um, Bob see what, what other states have done that, that's pretty innovative and...

GREENLEE: Oh, this is a sure...

YANG: Yeah, for small business.

GREENLEE: Yeah, we'll look at it.

YANG: Okay?

BLAGOJEVICH: You're the best Fred.

YANG: Alright, talk to you later governor. Bye Bob.

BLAGOJEVICH: Hey, okay, bye bye.

DATE: 12/4/08 2:36 p.m.

ACTIVITY: Rod Blagojevich home line incoming call.

SESSION: 1354

SPEAKERS: Rod Blagojevich : Robert Greenlee

BLAGOJEVICH: Hey.

GREENLEE: Hey.

BLAGOJEVICH: You there?

GREENLEE: Yeah, I'm here.

BLAGOJEVICH: Who's this?

GREENLEE: Greenlee.

BLAGOJEVICH: Okay, now listen, now listen to me. You don't know what's going on here. So you gotta' be careful. Don't be talkin' too much.

GREENLEE: I hear ya'.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean you're contradicting me here, you're, you know. Eh, uh, it's a repugnant idea, but I need to leverage that Jesse Jr. with these f---in' national people.

GREENLEE: I see what your play is.

BLAGOJEVICH: To get the deal for Lisa and they gotta f---in'...

GREENLEE: ...play.

BLAGOJEVICH: ....you follow what I'm saying?

GREENLEE: That's your play.

BLAGOJEVICH: And I can't, I, I, I love Fred but I don't want it slippin' out and I don't trust, trust Knapp on this one. He's too much over there.

GREENLEE: No, I like your play. I got it, I got it.

BLAGOJEVICH: So I, before this poll came out I was f---in' jackin' up Jesse. I've got Lucio trying to get a story in the paper.

GREENLEE: Yeah, yeah, we got him to the poverty conference and all this other stuff, you know.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, I want these national Democrats and Obama, and I want it to be like Obama said we should appoint him.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: I want them to f---in' see Holy F---, it's gonna be Jesse Jr. if we don't f---in' get this Lisa thing done.

GREENLEE: I got your play, yeah. I like that.

BLAGOJEVICH: And by the way, you know, who knows, it could be. I'm not gonna completely rule it out.

GREENLEE: Look, you never rule anything out, but I see, I see exactly your plan. I think that's (UI).

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, they're, I'm so f---in' anathema to these f---in' people over there.Well maybe when Jesse looks like he's real, I ain't so anathema either.

GREENLEE: Wait till you get a good sniff of this guy.

BLAGOJEVICH: Huh?

GREENLEE: I said wait till you get a good sniff of this guy.

BLAGOJEVICH: (Laughs) Yeah, that's right, that's right.

GREENLEE: (Laughs)

BLAGOJEVICH: That's right, that's right.

GREENLEE: Then you'll see a real problem heading your way. No I like it. Okay, I got, I got where you're going. So, okay, we're already getting going on this povertyconference which is gonna be good.

BLAGOJEVICH: That's good and look it, I'm, uh, it's not all bulls--- because there is, eh, you know there is the possibility. I could see how circumstance could shake out where I could possibly uh, I don't know. I, I could see how...

GREENLEE: (Laughs)

BLAGOJEVICH: ...and for my love of the Black community, how maybe I'd do it.

GREENLEE: Yeah.

BLAGOJEVICH: You know they're all f---in' me, and all these national f---ers, f--- you.

GREENLEE: It looked, it... I could see why it would play out that way.

BLAGOJEVICH: Huh, and then at least I've got some, you know, then it's me and Madigan fighting it out and at least, at some point, maybe that Jackson network will come through. You never know.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm. No, look, the, the one thing you said that's true is look, there are people that are your supporters, in, including in Springfield. And there's not one Eric Whitaker supporter in Springfield.

BLAGOJEVICH: The worst case f---in' nuclear horrific uh, thing, you know, the thing we're, eh, eh, it's just inconceivable could happen, the double "I" thing. The one then the other?

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Uh, you know, now you've made this guy a Senator.

GREENLEE: Mm-hmm.

BLAGOJEVICH: Then maybe they run from ya', but you got a better shot with somebody like that than you do with some of these other people you'd appoint.

GREENLEE: That's true. That's, that, you're right about that.

BLAGOJEVICH: There's a certain immunity to being a Jackson when it comes to terrorists and f---ing war criminals, you know what I'm saying?

GREENLEE: (UI)

BLAGOJEVICH: ...International outlaws and f---in' indicted governors.

GREENLEE: Yeah, not giving, not giving a hell about any of that stuff.

BLAGOJEVICH: Huh?

GREENLEE: No, you're right about that. You are right. I mean, look (beep) if any of that stuff ever comes to pass, I think that, you know Knapp said it best on Tuesday. Your best shot is out there.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah I know, but I'm so repugnant I'm anathema out there. Maybe they can get it like you just said...

GREENLEE: I think that...

BLAGOJEVICH: ...let 'em have a taste of... What?

GREENLEE: I said I think that's bulls---. You know I think that's bulls---, so...

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah.

GREENLEE: You know, I'm not that one that, I'm not, you know and I'm not the one who's talkin' to f---in' Harry Reid everyday. So...

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah, and told, you know Harry Reid, like you just said, take, 'cause I'll look less repugnant to them. They'll just say look, then how about appointin' yourself, who knows.

GREENLEE: (Laughs)

BLAGOJEVICH: You know what I'm saying. I'll say I don't wanna' f---in' do it. Well then, you know, you, don't send this, him. Then f---, alright, you back me up. I'll f---in', I'm going to take a f---in' s--- storm, I'll do it.

GREENLEE: I'm telling you, it's look, it's a...

BLAGOJEVICH: Huh?

GREENLEE: I, I said it before. I think this f---in' ri-, I think that's way over rated and I think, you're right. I think when they, when they're presented with that option, forget it. You know. Forget it. They'll say please, please just come here yourself.

BLAGOJEVICH: Yeah and I...

GREENLEE: Don't give us that f---in' guy.

BLAGOJEVICH: I mean p-, m-, they're pro-, I'm probably more objectionable to them than he is, but I don't know. Huh?

GREENLEE: If so only because of the, the nature of the action. Not because of the person.

BLAGOJEVICH: Mm-hmm.

GREENLEE: You know?

BLAGOJEVICH: Right, right.

GREENLEE: They know that they've had, they've had time with you as governor to know whatever baggage is out there. With him they know there's baggage, they just haven't seen it yet. So it can all blow up still. You know?

About "Change of Subject."

"Change of Subject" by Chicago Tribune op-ed columnist Eric Zorn contains observations, reports, tips, referrals and tirades, though not necessarily in that order. Links will tend to expire, so seize the day. For an archive of Zorn's latest Tribune columns click here. An explanation of the title of this blog is here. If you have other questions, suggestions or comments, send e-mail to ericzorn at gmail.com.
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Contributing editor Jessica Reynolds is a 2012 graduate of Loyola University Chicago and is the coordinator of the Tribune's editorial board. She can be reached at jreynolds at tribune.com.