We met a polite and shy man who seemed to have infinite patience, yet at the same time exhibited a fierceness and sense of mission. His clarity and insightful comments put us on the spot many times, leaving us with the feeling that here was a truly free man who, without trying, had achieved what I feel is a type of spiritual anarchy.

EWJ: It appears the Buddha left a technique to practice awareness, and his influence has been very great.

K: He couldn’t have left a technique. After his death his disciples probably gathered together and put up a scheme. Buddha couldn’t possibly have said “Seek refuge in me.” The systems came after he died. We think because he had attained some illumination, had suffered and gone through starvation, that we must also go through that in order to achieve what he achieved. And he might say, “Well, that’s all childish stuff. It has nothing to do with enlightenment.”

Can one person who is illumined - to put it in modern terms, free from all conditioning - affect the consciousness of all the rest of mankind? What do you think, impersonally, objectively, as you look at the world? Two thousand years of Christian propaganda, “Jesus is the saviour,” and the churches have burned people, tortured people, had hundreds of years of war in Europe. Christians have been one of the greatest killers in the world. I’m not against nor for - I’m just pointing out that this is the result of two thousand years of “peace on earth.” It has no meaning, whether Jesus existed or not.

So has all this propaganda, this programming of the brain, after two thousand years of repetition of the Mass day after day, affected man at all? Christ said, “Don’t hate your enemy, love your enemy.” And everything we do is contrary to that. We don’t care. So, what will affect man? What will change man who has been programmed, literally programmed like a computer, to worship Jesus, to worship the Buddha, to worship other gods?

Can the mind free itself from all programs? Is it possible to be totally free of taking in information - what the newspapers say, what the magazines say, what the priests, psychologists, and professors say? Education, propaganda on the television, the evangelists in America - that peculiar breed - are all telling me what to think and, increasingly, what to do. If I have a little quarrel with my wife I go to the specialists - the psychologists, psychotherapists.

Dr. Spock or some professor tells me how to raise my children. I’m becoming a slave to these specialists, my mind is conditioned and I’m limited - conditioning implies limitation - I’m in battle with everybody else for the rest of my days. And there’s the future of man.

What is the point of the Pope going toPoland, or all over South America? Is it a vast entertainment? Sustaining the faith? He says you must sustain faith, which means believe in Christ - which means do what we tell you. It’s all so absurd! So what will you do, with the world pressing you all the time - they won’t let you alone. I say, sorry, I won’t accept any of it. Whether it’s the Buddha, Christ, the Pope, Mr. Reagan telling me what to do ... sorry, I won’t. This means we have to be extraordinarily capable of standing alone. And nobody wants to do that.

EWJ: Do you think there is a truth?

K: Yes, but there is not my truth, your truth. And it has no path.There’s no Christian path, Hindu path, Buddhist path, your path, my path. One must be free of all paths to find it. The Hindus have been very clever at this. They said there is the path of knowledge, the path of action, the path through devotion - this suits everybody.

EWJ: So you say to stand alone we find our truth.

K: No. The word alone means all one. But people say, “I can’t do it alone, so please help me to put my house in order,” and invent the guru - not a particular guru but the whole idea of gurus. The world of so-called religion, whether it is the religion of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Catholics, the whole structure of religious ceremonies, is put together by thought, is it not?

The Mass was invented by man. They may say it came directly from heaven but that seems rather absurd - it’s been invented by man. The ancient Egyptians had their ceremonies to shape man. It isn’t something new, the worship of symbols and figures. The guru, the mantra, various forms of yoga which have been brought over to this unfortunate country, are all authorities leading you to meditate and all. We have done it - we have tried Jesus, we have tried every form of person and idea, theory, system. They have not worked. So it’s up to me to put my house in order - I cannot depend on anyone else.

If you reject the church, the whole religious structure of the world, any kind of spiritual authority, you are free.