Should such comments be flagged as non-constructive or are these considered good?

Another trigger for this post is that a comment on one of my posts suddenly vanished. I presume that it was deleted by a mod. This is the post in question and the comment read something like: Somebody came. Downvoted both the answers quietly and went away.

It does seem like more often than not ("seems" - I have no proof) that once someone asks "Why'd I get a downvote?", someone answers. The original downvoter may be long gone, but someone else jumps in and says something like, "Well, I didn't downvote, but it might be because..."
– GrantApr 30 '14 at 3:18

42

@GeorgeCummins: Someone that had < 50 reputation wouldn't be able to downvote anyway, so I'm not sure I see that particular case ever being a problem.
– MakotoApr 30 '14 at 3:32

20

In all seriousness Why do you care?
– user177800Apr 30 '14 at 4:03

51

I down vote my maximum allotted down votes and close votes every day I have time to use SO. It is my duty so to say, I never feel compelled to leave a reason, because the majority of the time the OP didn't feel compelled to put in even the minimum effort to their question. And I certainly never feel bad about their inappropriate reaction, that is their problem.
– user177800Apr 30 '14 at 4:14

150

If you feel like downvoting, you'll probably agree that there's something to improve on the question, so why not tell what it is so OP gets a chance to improve? I don't know any good reasons not to comment on a downvote, except if someone else has already given that comment.
– eisApr 30 '14 at 5:26

44

And I would care, since I care about the quality of my questions. Shouldn't that be self-evident?
– eisApr 30 '14 at 5:32

30

@JarrodRoberson It can be quite simple: maybe there is something wrong with your post that you genuinely want to fix, but haven't figured out. It has happened to me a few times and when I have asked it is for this reason. But I don't expect that people should feel constrained to answer, and I also don't assume that whoever comments on the reason for a down-vote is the same person that down-voted.
– juanchopanzaApr 30 '14 at 5:34

85

I got a comment-less down-vote today; I left a 'Why' question because I don't think it was a fair down-vote. I want to know why people think my answers, which I put effort into, are so bad that they warrant a down-vote.
– Jonathan LefflerApr 30 '14 at 5:37

11

It's case-by-case so it'll be impossible to give a single answer. Some questions are poor and show no sign of "effort" as @JarrodRoberson also mentions. Writing why you downvote such a post would likewise be a waste of effort because the author wouldn't learn from it anyway. Downvoting a post where the poster obiovusly has made an effort in a higher degree warrant an "explanation". So in the former case, I'd ignore the "why the downvote" as well, in the latter - if I downvote, I'll also say why. It's case-by-case.
– Allan S. HansenApr 30 '14 at 5:38

23

Another thing to keep in mind: pass-downvote-and-go-away users won't even care if you edit your post (I've seen this several times). That is discouraging for new users or people who care for rep. A "why the downvote?" in such occurrences is a way to vent that fact.
– Marco A.Apr 30 '14 at 5:38

7

I sometimes post the "Well, I didn't downvote, but it might be because..." type comments that Grant referred to above. I (generally) do so when I think the OP deserves some kind of explanation. "Deserves" is, of course, subjective, but I'm talking about cases where I get a sense the OP is making a genuine effort and doesn't understand what they've missed. (Of course I don't post an explanation if I can't actually imagine one, something that does happen frequently given how many good questions and answers get downvotes for no apparent reason.)
– nnnnnnApr 30 '14 at 5:45

28

If leaving a comment for downvote is a waste of time, wouldn't a nice checkbox list of common downvote reason be a nice way forward with the current situation? As a site improvement suggestion.
– JaceApr 30 '14 at 6:03

60

Downvoting without commenting is like yelling, "You're wrong!" and then walking away. It's just bad form. If you're going to downvote, explain why. Don't be so damn lazy and callous. This counts for downvotes on both questions AND answers.
– Brandon BertelsenApr 30 '14 at 19:46

25

What part of the default reason for the downvote isn't good enough? It says in a general way why they failed, 99.999999% of the cases for a downvote that is actually the reason. They were lazy. Nothing I can say will add anything to the default reason. Thus it would be a waste of time on many levels.
– user177800Apr 30 '14 at 20:03

23

@JarrodRoberson I have read many answers written by JonathanLeffler and they reflect a consistently high level of expertise. In all likelihood, those who downvote him know far less than he does on whatever the subject. If they had the courage to leave a comment, they would likely learn something from him. Their anonymous downvotes, by contrast, contribute nothing positive to SO.
– John1024May 1 '14 at 0:31

18 Answers
18

I believe it is constructive as it shows that the OP wants to know what went wrong, and how to correct it. It's so discouraging for new users to just be down-voted. From some of the comments here, I get the idea that some here think that people who post questions/answers of low quality are just bad people in general who are of low quality, who will never contribute to Stack Exchange. This reeks of arrogance. It also gives a false impression of cliques. If somebody is asking, they care. If they don't have a reason for that downvote, what choice do they really have but to come to a wrong conclusion? Sure a few hardy stubborn souls might hang on, perhaps discover the respective Meta site, thoroughly re-read the FAQ and help sections, and go on to be solid contributors. Most I think will just leave, though. Stack Exchange is in a good place now. The site is growing. That might not be the case forever. People asking for reasons for their downvotes is entirely reasonable, and I think the response should likewise be reasonable.

My own first question was not of particularly good quality, as is evidenced by all of the unrelated answers. It took me several edits to get it right. Fortunately the voting members involved with the question (reviewers, and answerers alike) were patient and genuinely trying to help, not only me, but the site in general. Comments helped in that case. Any downvotes would have been irrelevant as I wouldn't have understood what the downvote was for anyway.

On the other hand, when you do leave a comment why you downvoted, you occasionally get a rant on how you are not welcoming to new people, and if you clarify your position you get asked if you are picking on them. Whether you explain your downvote or not, someone will disagree either way.
– Mark RotteveelApr 30 '14 at 11:43

55

@MarkRotteveel true, but it shouldn't discourage you to do the right thing, even if there are people speaking against you. They are wrong, not you.
– dirkkApr 30 '14 at 12:04

1

@MarkRotteveel Someone will disagree but they cannot unchange your downvote. So what bad can really happen? The only real bad thing should be retaliations downvotes, shouldn't it? Everything else should be harmless.
– TrilarionApr 30 '14 at 19:44

8

While this is certainly a fine theory, I find it not the case in practice. Most of the people who go "OMG downvoters explain!!!" in comments 5 seconds after seeing a downvote are dramatically more likely to get into an unconstructive argument in the event it is explained than someone who doesn't comment at all.
– ServyApr 30 '14 at 20:03

29

I've always thought that people who down vote and don't state a reason why are just cowards afraid of confrontation. Some people have down voted questions/answers that I've put effort into it, and if someone down votes a clear a question/answer it should be explained why to understand why my content does not pass the high quality bar here.
– ILikeTacosApr 30 '14 at 20:26

20

A lot of it also depends on the tone of the comment asking about downvotes. If someone is polite and genuinely confused I'll usually leave a comment explaining why or guessing why I think someone else downvoted. If someone is angry or accusatory I ignore them, since I just risk making myself a target. If someone put no effort into their question, then there isn't really anything constructive to say. "You just pasted 1000 lines of code and didn't bother to ask an actual question" is not going to garner a welcome reply.
– TroyenApr 30 '14 at 20:38

7

@AlanChavez: Dang, even the content of your comment there sounds defensive. I'd never explicated my downvote if I saw a comment like the above in your post history. It's not because I'm a coward; it's because I can improve StackOverflow better by commenting where I'd expect a constructive response to what I have to say. If I get the sense I'll just annoy someone trying to explain, I downvote and move on. Only so many hours in the day.
– Conspicuous CompilerApr 30 '14 at 23:28

2

I'm not quite sure if the intent of asking is always to fix the answer. High rep users manage to gather upvote on obviously unhelpful answers by making such comments. Note that an answer may be technically correct, but it should be helpful to the OP. If the OP doesn't exhibit basics of integer addition and you dump an answer that requires understanding of advance calculus, I'd say that it's a terribly unhelpful answer worthy of downvotes. Moreover, it should have been obvious before posting such an answer.
– devnullMay 1 '14 at 2:39

24

Some here think that people who post questions/answers of low quality are just bad people in general who are of low quality, who will never contribute StackExchange -- That would be arrogant, if it were actually true. It isn't. The truth is much more mundane; the folks who seek to keep the site clean are far outnumbered by the ones who litter the site with vague, underspecified questions riddled with spelling and grammatical errors, and the broom sweepers are getting worn out.
– Robert Harvey♦May 1 '14 at 23:38

6

This answer appears to reason that explaining downvotes is constructive, whereas if I'm not mistaken, the question at hand is whether asking for an explanation of downvotes is constructive. The crux of the answer, that "if somebody is asking, they care" is hopeful but fictitious as a blanket statement. In my experience, about 1/2 of the time they are asking because they want to argue. The truth is that if a post can be improved folks will comment on it regardless. You haven't explained why you think asking for a reason is constructive, only that you think folks should explain downvotes.
– RadiodefMay 2 '14 at 1:38

2

"...about 1/2 of the time they are asking because they want to argue..." I guess it's a glass half-full sort of thing. If that's how you feel, then downvote and run. Those of us who are more optimistic downvoters will stick around and try and help on the assumption that 1/2 of the time they want to improve their contribution. And let's keep in mind that none of us have to put up with abuse. If you think the conversation is getting out of hand, walk away and report it.
– ouflakMay 2 '14 at 7:48

For one of my answers I have had both up and down votes with a new result of +2. I have no idea how to measure how useful my answer was or what I could do to improve it. Down votes are useless unless a reason is given; they add no value other than to discourage. (I have no problem with voting being anonymous).
– Peter SmithMay 9 '14 at 10:55

I'm saying life is too short to argue over downvotes, @Trilarion. I got drawn into entirely too many unproductive discussions before realizing this, so I do what I can to spare others the trouble; still, every day we get emails from someone upset over an unnecessary argument that started this way. If you're honestly looking for advice, then ask for it, and accept it from whoever is willing to provide it regardless of if or how they voted - that simple rule can avoid soooo much drama...
– Shog9♦Jul 15 '14 at 18:05

The assumption appears to be that downvotes are on "obviously" wrong answers. There are ample situations where I've seen downvotes on both questions and answers that (in my opinion) do not deserve them.

On more than one occasion, I've had a downvotes on answers that I'm pretty sure are the correct answers. Sometimes, these are part of "serial downvoting" on a question, where similar answers were also downvoted. In those cases, I tend to upvote the other answers.

I have also had downvotes on questions where there really was an error. Unfortunately, with no comment, I am left as clueless as before the downvote. In some cases, leaving a comment has enlightened me -- such as the time I left the on keyword out of an on clause.

So, I see nothing wrong with asking for comments. The original downvoter may not see it, but someone else may be able to explain the problem. I strongly wish that Stack Overflow required a comment with a downvote -- even if the comment is anonymous, protecting the downvoter.

By the way, I personally no longer downvote either questions or answers. I have made mistakes in the past. And, I find that leaving a comment often has the same or better effect. For instance, this answerer responsibly deleted his/her answer after being informed that it is incorrect.

leaving a keyword out should not solicit a down vote it should solicite and edit for the minor correction, with an explanation, it would most likely get approved
– user177800May 2 '14 at 0:55

52

THIS. I don't down-vote. I think it's a bad feature of the SE system. I vote to close if the question is a duplicate or is so flagrantly in violation of the rules that it can't be saved. But voting to close requires a reason. Since down voting requires no reason it is just negative, not constructive. I've been down voted by people on questions and answers not because there's anything wrong with them, just because someone doesn't like my answer. If you disagree with me then have the guts to put your name to it. Let other readers decide who's right.
– Joel BrownMay 7 '14 at 23:16

15

I would like to also see that it is forced for a downvoter to leave a comment. The person who got downvoted would not see who downvoted but a moderator might be able to see it.
– CashCowOct 2 '14 at 14:03

18

A BIG UPVOTE from me for your insight: By the way, I personally no longer downvote either questions or answers. I have made mistakes in the past. And, I find that leaving a comment often has the same or better effect. -- this has become my own principle, wrote it in my profile.
– SQLGeorgeJul 6 '15 at 4:14

3

we all make mistakes but its disappointing to disengage with the voting system that benefits all of us. fair disclosure - i downvoted this post because of this position of not voting on answers or questions which i feel is fundamental to highlighting quality. hypothetically, in rare occurrence of finding an answer of yours with a syntax issue, i would comment on the issue and have high confidence you would edit fairly fast. after fair time though ( maybe half an hour if user is active ) has elapsed though, i would downvote ( as quality is important and a syntax error is still an error )
– amdixonOct 31 '15 at 9:58

1

I find that leaving a comment often has the same or better effect I completely agree. For example, today someone commented on one of my answers showing the problem (even without downvoting the answer) and I immediately understood it, and deleted the answer. But a few weeks ago I had a downvote on an answer, and I still don't know what it was for, so decided to leave it there. Downvotes without a fair comment are half-measures.
– NisargJul 23 '17 at 13:13

Disagree with the down-voter is very unlikely to see the comment - this might be the case for downvotes on bad questions where people just fire and forget, but in the case of a fresh answer, the downvoter is more likely to still be around if the comment is posted reasonably fast. Based on personal experience, in the rare case one of my answers was downvoted I asked for reasons and got an answer in 2 of 3 cases. Still, I'd agree that the comment becomes pure noise if nobody answers it after a few minutes and could then be deleted.
– l4mpiApr 30 '14 at 9:54

35

Why shouldn't it be useful if someone else explains a down-vote? The question in almost all cases is "Why was this downvoted?" not "Who downvoted that?" If I know the answer to the first question, why shouldn't that be helpful to the OP?
– dirkkApr 30 '14 at 10:03

Even then, the explanation will highlight how the post could be improved, enabling the poster to do better next time.
– meritonApr 30 '14 at 10:09

1

I highly doubt that, in a more practical sense. Of course I'll never know the exact thoughts another human being had, but for a majority of the questions the reason is quite obvious to a more experienced user. This is not always the case, of course, but to the standard low-rep user asking why is low quality question was downvoted, it most likely is.
– dirkkApr 30 '14 at 10:10

3

If you're looking at a post and there are obvious problems with it that would attract downvotes, you shouldn't need the OP to demand to know why it was downvoted before you tell them how to fix it. It shouldn't even need to have any downvotes yet to prompt a helpful comment.
– WoobleApr 30 '14 at 10:18

2

@Wooble In theory I agree, but this is simply impossible - There are many posts that could be improved, but I an not comment on all of them. And then I think it is reasonable to comment on these post, where the OP seems to care enough to at least ask what is wrong - I very much doubt that many users actually care about the quality of their question. So I think it is valid filtering criteria.
– dirkkApr 30 '14 at 10:25

13

I disagree with this, there have been times when asking for feedback I received helpful comments from someone other than the downvoter that helped me fix issues that I missed in my answer or question. Many times the downvote was removed once I fixed the problem. Of course downvotes especially on questions may not always be about the content and so there may be no reasonable helpful comment but I see no reason to damn the whole practice.
– Shafik YaghmourApr 30 '14 at 12:06

9

I think the conclusion that if the original downvoter doesn't see the comment, the comment is "just noise" is flawed. More than anything else, the comment says "See, others have downvoted without leaving an explanation, but this users would like to get one. If you consider downvoting them, please add an explanation." So, even if the original downvoter may or may not see the request for an explanation, it is a sign to other downvoters that the respective user does care and would appreciate one.
– O. R. MapperApr 30 '14 at 12:07

@ShafikYaghmour: The original downvoter is likely long gone and has forgotten about it all. When you downvote a question, it doesnt even show up in your history. Answer downvotes do
– BrianMay 2 '14 at 18:24

Well, I saw a question with only 3 views, and a downvote, and someone asked, why the downvote, a person had replied I didn't do it, but may be because.... 1 view of the person who asked, 1 of the downvoter, and 1 of mine. So, it seems, he was the person who downvoted and was trying to hide the fact, I don't know why?... But, he did contribute by stating what can be improved.
– user3459110May 3 '14 at 14:10

1

@AwalGarg - you can't know that. This is exactly what I mean by speculation.
– ChrisF♦May 3 '14 at 14:11

@ChrisF Yes, I agree with your point. I was just trying to state that This also happens... rather, his downvote is non-constructive, isn't it? He didn't bring anything to the table by downvoting, did he?
– user3459110May 3 '14 at 14:15

2

I respectfully disagree with you. I always check my inbox constantly; it's kind of hard to miss the white-on-bold text telling you that something has happened. I've found that people who explained their downvotes to me seemed like people who were legitimitely offerrring constructive criticism, whereas those who downvoted without reason seemed more like people having fun with the powers that come with 125 rep.
– FracturedRetinaMay 5 '14 at 22:51

1

I think that if someone downvotes an answer because it's wrong, they have a responsibility to stick around for a while, to see if the respondent corrects the answer. I frequently remove my downvotes after the respondent makes a remedial edit; and I never just walk away from a question after I've downvoted one of the answers, unless I believe the answer is truly unable to be repaired.
– Dawood ibn KareemMay 29 '14 at 3:57

First of all voting is secret (to the majority of people on SO) for a reason, and asking for the downvoter to explain himself is also (or maybe for some the major reason to ask for a comment) asking the people that downvoted to reveal themselves.

People have the right to have their own reasons to {up,down}vote, and that is what makes up a lot of the freedom on this site.

People do not want to reveal themselves for various reasons, including problems like serial downvoting; and it is of absolutely not concern for anyone else what these reasons are. This is a fundamental property of all (real) democratic processes. A lot of people that are just asked -- even in a relatively nice way -- feel harassed for revealing their decision making process. Especially when this happens over and over and over again. People are fed up with this question, and automatically snap into some nonconstructive mode. Either by never visiting that post again, or by actively fighting the question for why something was downvoted instead of the content of the answer.

That said, what is a real good, understandable reason for a question of why it was downvoted? The only reason that this community should care about is: Whoever was downvoted wants to learn.

So: Why not ask what you want to learn. Instead of asking

Why was this answer downvoted?

better ask

Did I miss any important point here? can this be improved?

this may transport about the same message by the commenter, but is totally differently perceived by whoever reads that comment. Mostly, most will not (directly or indirectly) feel like they are revealing their vote. And also this is much more constructive. It is actively asking for what can be changed, not for why something was perceived as sub-optimal. Think about the solution, not the problem.

Your abridged question might not sound the same but may well serve the same intention as before. The problem could easily be solved by allowing anonymous downvote comments that are not displayed publicly but only to the user. IIRC there was/is a message when downvoting that says "please give a comment on how to improve", why not replace this message with a text field to give the opportunity for this feedback?
– NobodyApr 30 '14 at 9:51

1

@Nobody: interesting idea, you might want to elaborate that into a feature request. However for people that like to use up their daily downvote quota on questions that deserve no further explanation, such a feature should not impair their workflow.
– PlasmaHHApr 30 '14 at 9:56

I disagree with your whole reasoning here. It is no feature of a real democratic process that no-one should care what the reasoning behind a decision is. On the contrary, I would always argue you should keep in mind the reasons behind a decision and not just the plain statement. Context matters, always. Of course you have no right to get the answer, but to want this answer is very valid.
– dirkkApr 30 '14 at 10:07

@Nobody: Well, it was just a comment, not a feature request...
– PlasmaHHApr 30 '14 at 10:23

@PlasmaHH: It has gained many upvotes and was there before the current system was implemented, so I assume it has been considered. You may go on with a feature request but I will not.
– NobodyApr 30 '14 at 10:32

1

@Nobody: As mentioned on meta numerous times: comments are second class citizens. If you want something to stay around, or trigger some action, make it a question/answer. I would never assume it has been considered by those that have the powers to make it happen, simply because its in a comment.
– PlasmaHHApr 30 '14 at 10:37

@dirkk: Maybe as a non-native speaker the fine nuances of the words are interpreted a bit differently. Another property of a free system is that in your mind you can want anything that you want. What I mean is that your actions should not be in that way. "Did you vote democrats or communists?" "That is nothing of your business". To protect the weak; even such seemingly innocent questions can be so intimidating that people will reveal things that when they felt save, they would never have done.
– PlasmaHHApr 30 '14 at 10:40

What about people who comment like so - -1 Your post is so and so.... That becomes public voting, isn't it?
– user3459110May 3 '14 at 14:12

@AwalGarg: You are always free to tell everyone what you voted. If this is your free will, there is no big deal at all. It is your right to keep your vote to yourself, no matter how much anyone else insist on you revealing it; it is not your duty to keep it secret. You can always run around and scream into everyones face "I voted for the republicans" ... Its just that you need to live with the consequences then.
– PlasmaHHMay 4 '14 at 19:11

2

You don't have to explain, but the poster should be free to ask for an explanation. It's no more harassment than the downvote was in the first place, given there was no attempt to educate with a comment.
– Warren DewMay 10 '14 at 8:35

I think allowing something to do anonymously is nothing to do with "freedom". If one have an opinion, it is preferred to take the responsibility for it. Also this site has a well defined goal which is related of the quality of Q/As. (At the same time I understand and admit that human nature can cause downvote "wars" and revenge type actions when downvoter is known: Here is where moderation go in the picture) I think referring to "freedom" is a misinterpretation of freedom and community (society)
– g.pickardouMay 13 at 8:14

@g.pickardou you are by writing this comment also benefiting from a certain level of anonymity, nobody here knows who you are in the real world. If people would come to your home and berate you about any vote you do, you would probably not find that funny. For a lot of people the perception about getting the same flak "only" online is not much different, and they would think twice expressing their opinion and submit to peer pressure voting differently or not at all
– PlasmaHHMay 13 at 16:36

@g.pickardou what would you want to do with that information anyways, other than asking/harassing the person about the motives? Do statistics about how they always downvote only? I have never had a single time where I wanted to know who the person was
– PlasmaHHMay 13 at 16:43

For new users to the site, downvotes are frustrating - they didn't do things wrong on purpose and they'd like to get some information on why they occurred. It's asking for feedback.

If the site's response to this is to then mark even that request for feedback as 'non-constructive' then that takes an already frustrated user and makes them much much less likely to come back to the site.

I think there is a difference between 'non-constructive to the person answering the question' and 'non-constructive to the person asking it', and when the answer to 'hey, what rule did I break?' is the equivalent of 'This is your second warning', then we've got a site that doesn't reward people for trying to become more helpful contributors.

If we lost 99% of new users and only kept the new users that did not get down voted, SO would be a better place. So driving away new users could be seen as being very positive.
– Ian RingroseApr 30 '14 at 9:51

15

@Ian, that attitude is fine right now. StackExchange is growing in popularity and use. But that situation isn't eternal. There is no doubt that your approach would drive away loads of potentially good contributors. When the day comes that StackExchange reaches a zenith, many will point right back to this policy of commentless downvotes and finger this as a reason why that's happened. I've been through this before (with Wikipedia). I know that of what I'm speaking.
– ouflakApr 30 '14 at 10:05

4

@ouflak, "potentially good contributors" are unlikely to get many down votes, given how few down votes there are.
– Ian RingroseApr 30 '14 at 10:09

24

And that is the attitude of arrogance that will come to haunt this site if it prevails.
– ouflakApr 30 '14 at 10:10

4

@ouflak: "But that situation isn't eternal." But only because one day SO/SE will cease to exist. Until then we will always have tons of people not putting enough effort into writing up a coherent questions.
– PlasmaHHApr 30 '14 at 10:25

15

@IanRingrose I think such elitist views are very harmful to SO. It is based on the assumption that there are 1% of good new users and 99% of bad new users - This is simply untrue. There is a lot of gray area in between and a lot of these 99% you want to kick out will actually get used to the site and the standards and turn out very valuable input. No one is born knowing everything and we all started at some point in time - And everyone started with so called stupid questions.
– dirkkApr 30 '14 at 10:28

3

@ouflak There is no doubt that your approach would drive away loads of potentially good contributors - I do highly doubt that. This would be the case for a startup site but not for SO. I'd say a "potentially good contributer" has the ability to understand that downvoting is nothing personal and just indicates something is wrong with the question. They would also understand that SO is a valuable resource and not be deterred by a few downvotes. I'd also expect them to invest some effort of their own to find out why they were downvoted, and not to expect to be spoon-fed this information.
– l4mpiApr 30 '14 at 10:30

4

@Plasma, Maybe SE will continue to grow ad infinitum until the internet simply stops. But how will commentless downvotes help improve quality? Look I'm fine with anonymous comments and downvotes. I love the idea of a template response such as for flags. I wouldn't even make it mandatory. Just for those who want to toss in a quick downvote and move on quickly with a basic best-fit reason. The site can get better. And those who make posts of low-quality can get better. I'm surprised at how many feel that the latter isn't true or possible.
– ouflakApr 30 '14 at 10:30

2

@ouflak: Have a look at the downvote button texts: "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful" and "This answer is not useful". Most of the time this is exactly what I want to express. Do we really want 10 comments saying "I can't see any research effort" for a useless question? Or can we please try to focus on increasing the SNR, either by using that time on writing more answers or sweeping out more noise by downvoting/close-voting/flagging?
– PlasmaHHApr 30 '14 at 10:34

6

and @dirkk everyone started with so called stupid questions - no, there are still people decent enough to first check if a question is on-topic, do some research, create a minimal example, find out how to format their post correctly and how to interact with the site and its users in general. And IMO, this should be the expected minimum for someone asking a question. If it's their first question and they get one or two points wrong one should be lenient and guide them, but if it's the second or n-th question, they should be downvoted to oblivion and I'd doubt it would be a great loss.
– l4mpiApr 30 '14 at 10:35

1

@Plasma, WE might not want that. But the OP might. And further, this site would probably like the result of that feedback (better quality questions and answers). There no reason to clutter the site. There are many great suggestions on how to do this without adding more burden to users and moderators.
– ouflakApr 30 '14 at 10:40

5

@ouflak: We are in no way obliged to fulfill whatever wishes the OP has. If we as the community do want to have something (or not) then we should just do that. SO is not a place for everyone where we have to make everyone feel welcome by all means. It is a place where all those people that have the potential to be good citizens of the community are very welcome, and those who just waste time without the potential of contributing can go elsewhere.
– PlasmaHHApr 30 '14 at 10:45

@Plasma, agreed. But I do think we all want a better quality site. I think we disagree on how someone, who might initially not be a very quality poster but potentially could be, is made to feel 'very welcome'. I believe this comment section is dragging out a bit, so I won't comment here anymore. If you or anybody are interested in continuing this in chat, I'm game.
– ouflakApr 30 '14 at 11:03

2

@dirkk we're talking about SO here, not generalized concepts - everyone sh*ts their pants as a baby but this doesn't mean it's an acceptable thing to do in public as an adult. And as I said, if the user is brand new and there are signs that there's still hope, he shall receive guidance. I do comment on most of my downvotes (unless of course I can simply upvote an existing comment expressing my opionion of the post), but for some posts the OP is just so hopelessly far away from help that I downvote and move on, because I couldn't possibly write anything non-offensive as a response.
– l4mpiApr 30 '14 at 12:36

3

@l4mpi Actually, I think we totally agree and arguing about it seems quite silly. I do the same as you describe and my point was not to say that there are no bad, inconsiderate new users or users we actually do not want on the site. My point is that this is not everyone or even a vast majority, whereas Ian suggested to drive away 99% of new users.
– dirkkApr 30 '14 at 12:52

I feel like I have to give an answer too. From my few days on Meta I have sensed the enormous sentiment of more active users towards what is received as a giant wave of low quality questions from unskilled and probably also ungrateful new users.

Still I can fully understand that somebody wants to know the reason about a downvote. The downvote itself (Question is not useful) does not explain anything. The reasons for a closure explain much more although maybe not always enough.

The important thing is: Sometimes users really have no clue why their question has been downvoted. They might be angry but foremost one must assume that some just might be curious`and want to learn. Or do we want to be pessimists?

Now voting is anonymous and retaliation downvotes is a real risk. I would probably not admit directly that I downvoted a specific question but I would be willing to give hints what I think what is wrong. And why not? It doesn't really hurt anyone.

So summarize:

Asking what is wrong should be constructive and legitimate. But you don't have a right to get an explanation. I might give one if I see such a situation and have enough time. It should depend on the willingness of the involved people to give an explanation but nobody should be regarded less because of asking why something was downvoted.

So basically it should be left as it is but questions for reasons should be seen as opportunities to teach and if this turns out to be impossible, well ignore it at will.

Good to know. A single retaliatory downvote is still possible but no excesses.
– TrilarionMay 6 '14 at 8:24

@Cupcake There are smart folks out there who would downvote one or two of your posts a day. It's trivial to conclusively deduce who it is in certain cases. For example, there's one chap who would downvote one of my posts every couple of days. (And I'm not the only one. This guy does the same to a few other folks too.) What do you do about it?
– devnullMay 10 '14 at 7:44

I guess any algorithm would fail in this case because of too many false positives. It's too close to the usual pattern of up and downvoting if you do it slowly. Maybe the algorithms can still be refined a bit, but in the end you have to resort to human judging (aka a public discussion here about the case).
– TrilarionMay 10 '14 at 7:56

@devnull I don't suppose you could just report the person to a mod, could you? Would it be hard to prove that this person is downvoting you strictly out of retaliation? Also, at our reputation levels, a downvote or two a day would slow us down a little (me more so than you), but it's not going to make our overall rep drop over time :P
– user456814May 10 '14 at 8:04

@Cupcake I've so far chosen to ignore it. It's a bit annoying though, that someone would drop by and keep downvoting your answers (for a reason that doesn't have anything to do with the post per se). I thought about reporting it but then this chap was suspended (don't know why) for a couple of months. Now he's back and started it all over again. Thinking about how to take it forward.
– devnullMay 10 '14 at 8:07

@devnull I'm sorry, but for the longest time I thought you were a mod, but I just noticed that you don't have a diamond...did you used to be a mod? Maybe I just used to see you hanging out at Meta Stack Exchange a lot?
– user456814May 10 '14 at 8:09

2

@Cupcake Nah, never! Had I been the mod, I'd have suspended that chap until 3014.
– devnullMay 10 '14 at 8:10

@devnull well anyways, maybe just start another Meta discussion about it? I know I would certainly find it helpful if someday I suddenly found myself being harassed. Also, are you British?
– user456814May 10 '14 at 8:12

Stack Overflow is about making this site the best resource for questions and answers by professional programmers. Asking why a question or answer was downvoted can lead to an explanation and might lead to a subsequent edit and therefore to a better question/answer.

I see absolutely no harm in asking this question. At best case, a downvoter him/herself explains the reasoning, making it clearer to the OP. Otherwise, someone else might try to explain why he/she thinks that someone else downvoted it. The reason might be true (in most cases I have seen I guess it is) or false, but it will always result in a comment telling the OP how the post could be improved. In the worst case, simply no one responds.

In conclusion, I don't see how this question could lead to any harm, but I see potential benefits to the site in general.

@GeorgeCummins I agree to your statement what SO is. However, I didn't really say anything against that in my answer as stating "programming Q&A" is just a more general case. It does not say we have to exect each and every programming question. In no way I am saying we should allow all sorts of stupid questions, I agree with you that this would be harmful. I edited my question a little, hope this makes it clearer.
– dirkkApr 30 '14 at 11:55

There have been several occasions when my questions have received a downvote and I am left scratching my head trying to work out why.

How am I supposed to make sure I don't make the same mistake again if I don't know where I made the mistake?

Also, here have been times when the question was downvoted by someone who didn't read the question properly because if they had they would've known that it was a duplicate question etc but didn't stick around long enough for a response and realise their error.

It would be constructive if the downvoter were presented with a "why?" window at the time of the downvote.

I'm never angry at a downvote but when it happens I'm surprised and alarmed. When my answer, which I think is valid and good, is downvoted, I would like to know why, because I wouldn't have answered if I didn't think my answer was great. Sometimes it seems like someone was just being a troll (asking why wouldn't be beneficial for these cases, obviously), but if the downvoter had a real reason and I couldn't guess what it was, getting the reason would be useful for me as a developer.

It can be constructive if the point is to actually improve the answer.

However, we should all already know that explaining downvotes is a controversial subject to begin with. Some folks are adamant that they should not have to.

It is unfortunately common for an explanation request to look like this:

Downvoters: please explain.

And no, that's not constructive. If they did not explain their downvote before, why would they do it now? Anyone that's responded to one of these comments would also know it's likely going to instigate an argument.

If somebody is angry I downvoted them, I'm not going to talk to them about it.

Furthermore, if they're angry because I didn't comment initially, they should get over it because I don't have to.

What could be constructive is something more along the lines of this:

Can anyone tell me why this was downvoted? If it's wrong, can it be corrected?

This could be constructive because:

It's polite.

It's directed at anybody.

It clearly states its intent is correction.

What is constructive is providing a high-quality Q&A. To this end, asking for a downvote explanation is constructive.

For answers in particular it is important to understand that nobody has to tell you why your answer is bad. By posting something wrong or low-quality and then asking about it the Q&A is derailed.

It's also important to understand that in many cases when your answer is being downvoted, what you should be doing is deleting it.

Remember, there is a place for asking questions and ideally it's not the comments:

Now, my personal opinion is this type of comment should not be flagged as 'not constructive' because I like to think the moderators have better things to do with their time.

But sure, posting this type of comment may be a bit foolish. I've personally done it a couple times but I don't anymore because I've realized there were other things I could have done. It's also typical for somebody else to come by and leave a comment anyway so you probably don't have to ask.

Additionally, if the comment is very inflammatory (very occasionally they are), then do flag it as 'rude'.

I was trying to figure what the community, at large, feels about asking the reason for downvotes. Hence the question. The post didn't quite make it explicit but such comments usually come from relatively high rep users. I haven't run into newbies or even relatively newbie folks making comments like: Why was this downvoted?

I find it a bit surprising to see that an overwhelming proportion of folks feel that it's necessary or correct to ask for the downvote reason. Their reasons might vary, but most seem to suggest that it gives an opportunity to improve upon the answer. For a seasoned user posting an answer that is unlikely to help the OP1, regardless of whether incorrect or not, would not seem to be useful. Very often the unhelpful (or even incorrect) sort of answers emerge due to the Fastest Gun in the West Problem. If they are a bit careful to read the question before answering, there would be far lesser instances of downvotes.

Moreover, I cannot help wondering that nobody came out and argued that if one posting an answer would never ever ask or argue why her post was upvoted, then what sense does it make to ask for the downvote reasons. I have run into several several incorrect answers that have managed upvotes for whatever reasons and those are not removed despite possible comments suggesting that the answer is incorrect. (Somewhat related: Should answers that do not answer a question be preserved)

Some talk about the herd effect, note that it applies to upvotes too. Perhaps more often than in the other case because downvotes on answers cost a penny and only few are willing to shell it out. Yet one would never hear anyone (there may be exceptions) complain about being upvoted for an incorrect answer even if a brave soul comes out and comments about it.

Aside from what others have mentioned who don't quite find such comments to be constructive, I'd say that such comments do indicate that one is attempting to say that I can never go wrong. It doesn't seem give a very good feeling -- one might go wrong regardless of reputation or experience or whatever. Perhaps reading the question and one's own answer before hitting Post Your Answer would reduce the opportunity to ask the question drastically.

1 It's not quite hard to figure that. The question would tell a lot about how one needs to answer so that it's useful to the OP. If the question is terribly vague, then it doesn't deserve an answer anyways.

Does leaving a comment for a wrong answer make any sense?

I'm not sure. A number of incidents appear to suggest that it is best to downvote and move on.

Reason: I've often observed that leaving a note to indicate that the answer is wrong often leads to snippets from an existing correct answer to the same question being blatantly copied into one's own answer. (This would invariably happen if the incorrect answer has managed upvotes.)

Moreover, there are some who wouldn't even prefer it to be obvious that that an incorrect answer was fixed using other answers. As such, they would even flag such comments as obsolete after having utilized the creative commons advantage.

Moreover, if people don't expect to be a given a reason for upvotes then asking reasons for downvotes appears to be highly irrational.

I'll downvote if I can see the answer is wrong. Sometimes I used to comment explaining why, sometimes not. Strategy is this:

Does it look like a crap and far away from what is being asked? Downvote and move away. (I believe more downvotes will be fired on the same answer and eventually will be deleted.)

Does he/she try to answer, but something wrong with the answer? I'll downvote and explain why. Sometime I'm lazy to comment, I'll downvote and wait for OP to see whether he edits/deletes/ask for reason? If he asks for a reason, I'd provide reason.

I guess most of the people follow some kind of strategy in downvoting. It really hurts if someone doesn't explain a downvote. They don't give us a chance to learn if at all we're wrong. So, I'd not say it is not constructive. It sometimes helps you to learn the reason for a downvote.

Last but not least: I've seen Jon Skeet asking for "@Downvoter care to comment?". If asking reason for downvote is just noise, I don't think Jon will add noise to the community :)

Asking for reason why post was downvoted doesn't sound like something nonconstructive, since the author wants to know what he did wrong (and hopefully improve it). However is there any way for such comment to reach the downvoter? If not, then the comment ends up serving no purpose and is in fact redundant.

Asking why they got downvoted is not not-constructive. The user obviously thinks his answer is alright, and doesn't know why it'd be voted down. So he asks why it was, because he doesn't know if he's made a mistake or not. And if he has made a mistake, he wants to know about it, so he can learn what he did wrong, and then possibly update his answer too. Also, it can benefit other users than the answerer, since they may see nothing wrong with the answer either, and be wondering why it was downvoted too.

Obviously there are exceptions to this. Like if a user has +4 or more already on an answer and he gets 1 downvote.. It is rather annoying for people to complain about receiving a downvote on posts that are already fairly or highly upvoted. And users shouldn't do this every time they receive a downvote. Only when they are really not sure if their answer is correct, and would like to learn themselves and possibly improve their answer.

Not Constructive

Asking for something that was not volunteered is asking for discussion and conversation both of which turn into arguments and neither of which are on topic for Stack Overflow.

Ban boilerplate comments on downvoting as well

Boilerplate comments that say things like "read the FAQ", "show your work", etc are banned, I think we should ban the various whiny comments about downvoting as well. "downvoter explain", "why the downvote", "@Downvoter care to comment?" etc.

Goodness that's negative. Not all conversations will turn into arguments. I've had plenty of conversations that turned out to be good conversations, even if the beginning of the conversation was a critique on something related me. And if discussion and conversations are not 'on topic for stackoverflow', why have a comments section? Why have chat rooms?
– ouflakMay 2 '14 at 11:11

@ouflak you are proving my point for me here with your judgement of my opinion, which is negative without any positive critique, this is why I never comment when I exercise my right to vote or moderate and never will.
– user177800May 6 '14 at 14:42

It's a bit hard to have a discussion with polaric views (i.e. "negative without any positive critique"); that's not the same thing as pointing out (the obvious) failings in a post to an author who isn't aware of them. Sure some people won't take critizism gracefully but e.g. the majority of my "xyz -1" comments result in the post being edited, and (hopefully) the author learning something in the process.
– AD7sixMay 27 '14 at 9:19

If I submit an answer (implying that I assume both that it is a correct statement of fact and also that it answers the question), an uncommented downvote means to me that someone thinks I have got one of these two aspects wrong. In that case there is clearly an issue that needs fixing. So we end up with worse quality than necessary. I would expect the downvoter to tell me (briefly if they are busy) why they think I have the wrong end of the stick. I would always provide such a comment myself if downvoting an answer. If we end up having a constructive argument, that's fine by me.
– MandyShawAug 12 '18 at 21:04

I think there are people who downvote out of spite (if, say, their answer was downvoted, because it was wrong and the right answer is added shortly after). I also think there are people who click around, downvoting everything just because. If I do downvote I try to mention the reasoning why (usually it's something like "This query does not give the intended results. It is missing X").

Your proposal that all or most (down)votes are borne of emotional reaction rather than critical judgement seems baseless, but if you have actual evidence that it's the case, you should really present it, because it would constitute a complete undermining of the fundamentals of the SE engine.
– Josh CaswellJul 15 '14 at 18:15

Explanation of downvote is the way to be polite to other members of community. So all downvotes must be protected with explanation.
Ok, if to be polite is not enough for you one more thing, it looks like coward behavior - hit and run and yes that's another way to keep the discussion constructive - hold off from unreasonable downvotes.

You dug up an old meta question to post an answer that's simply missing, completely, how the SE network works... In broken English.
– CerbrusOct 24 '14 at 7:20

Yes, English is not my native language. But what's wrong with exactly this answer regarding grammar of my "broken" English?
– andrey.shedkoOct 24 '14 at 7:25

1

The first sentence is simply incorrect. Sure, it would be nice to give an explanation for the downvote, but it's not something users "must" do. Second one: "here one more point""way to keep discuss" ... What? English ain't my native language either. That's no excuse.
– CerbrusOct 24 '14 at 7:29

Current edition of my answer - this is translation by Google Translate. Big difference, yeah? And you know what - in this world there is lot of opinions different from your.
– andrey.shedkoOct 24 '14 at 7:33