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To further the flames. How many of you that claim we are "sterilizing the mountains" by helping people that perceive they are in danger have ever volunteered for any type of rescue group? Or how many have actually been in a situation where you needed help? Ever seen any one truly injured?

I smashed the crap out of my tib/fib in a fall on Discord at Poke-O, think Joe Theisman smashed the crap. Fortunately, there were a half dozen climbers around, one of whom was an orthopedic surgeon. After stabilizing things we quickly decided that calling anyone would be counterproductive, we had more than enough qualified labor to get the job done, and, f$3k, it was Poke-o, so I was five minutes from the road. A buddy of mine fell on an ice climb miles back in the woods in NC because he was being stupid (he would whole heartedly agree) and broke his pelvis. So made him comfortable, hiked out, called the local climbers (pre-cell phone), someone got a Stokes, and we hauled him out, again deliberately not calling 911. In both situations it would have seemed strange to do so. That's not to say that MRS isn't a great resource and there are times when people get themselves into really bad spots, either through dumb or acts of God (I do have a soft spot for those who get there from an excess of aggressiveness) where that is the best or only option and thank god it is an option. But they really should be the Maytag repairmen of the mountains.

when you analyze the situation, you can find three reason of it. First, it is real danger versus false danger. Second, local versus guide and third accident kill the industry.

1- real danger...it is minus thirteen outside here in Quebec. On the bus corner, where people wait, teenager girls stand in the cold without hat and, I saw some wearing dress with some kind of attractive socks (don't know the name). The weather is it the real danger here. NO. They know where they are going and are adapt at the situation. If you take some one from PA. Zero degree is an exception and when the temperature is so low, they stay inside. I saw in Miami people wearing fur coat at sixty five. So, the real danger is not the temperature, it is the way people act in cold weather. They are not prepare: it is the real danger.

2- As we understand that people are not prepare, we understand that the two latest accident (lip slide of tuckerman and this one) are cause by route finding. People who climb are not acustome to route finding in bad weather. They can't find there way. they have all the other skill and, for that reason don't want a guide. They just want some local whit some knowledge of the area to find the route when they come back. Or they want courses to know how to avoid avalanche slab as they come down the hill. Or they want to know how to climb. So, if the real danger is route finding, they most be some local that can follow the groupe and advise the leader of the direction or danger that coming with a six or seven hours compensation. Not guiding the party or taking the lead of the party. If you asked to rick, Mark and many other, they will told you that they went to yosemite and, in exchange of few box and food, they help people to realize there project. If we have in mt washington local who doesn't guide, but just assist people to have a nice day in the backcountry. So, if they don't miss the direction, just a local will make money with no need to use MRS. But to gain experience, you most lead a group and you most go outside the confort zone. And the Mt washington is a good project to train leadership...when you have a strong background in hard situation.

3- will finish later, note to keep my idea... Accident always bring a bad effect on the industry. People are afraid that a situation similar exist. Showing that you have the best MSR...means also that you have a lot of accident. Sunday, it was fifteen people from a school of PA who was in dificulty. Do you think that one of them will come back again and risk there life? People are not crazy, if they paid one hundred dollar, six dollars fifty per person, to have a local and make a good, fun trip in extreme weather... at least five of them will come back with friends and family and some of them will take courses, they will rent room in hotel and go to the restaurant. It is tourism. On the other side, if you play the game that climbing is dangerous, you will have an accident if the avy post is hight, take an avalanche course... you won't find your way down, but we have the best rescue...your money and your life between our hands. Not as good???

« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 09:43:11 PM by lucky luke »

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DLottmann

2- As we understand that people are not prepare, we understand that the two latest accident (lip slide of tuckerman and this one) are cause by route finding. People who climb are not acustome to route finding in bad weather. ...

You are 100% correct LL... "route finding" and "white out navigation preparation" is an oft neglected skill in aspiring mountaineers... it's the same damn turn that countless people (and quite a few guides) have missed, and it is a simple 111 degree bearing from Split Rock to Alpine Garden Trail... that snowfield has misled so many people...

Most of these folks have walked 70+ degrees off route to get to Tuckerman Junction... a simple glimpse at a compass from Split Rock could REALLY prevent these from happening... but how many leave map & compass behind because "they climbed it before"... too many I am sure...

I am a 'flatlander" I guess, but saying people don;t know about being in the mountains is bullshit. Yes i have done work with MRS..and yes i give them $$

This sound s like the 'guides mentality " setting in to me. because some one is a guide doesn't mean they know it all and are beter than anyone else i know amga guide s that I wouldn't give the time of day....calling 911 doesn't make you an asshole .

DLottmann

I am a 'flatlander" I guess, but saying people don;t know about being in the mountains is bullshit. Yes i have done work with MRS..and yes i give them $$

This sound s like the 'guides mentality " setting in to me. because some one is a guide doesn't mean they know it all and are beter than anyone else i know amga guide s that I wouldn't give the time of day....calling 911 doesn't make you an asshole .

You can, as I think trying to restrict the main majority of WMNF visitors in such a way really would be "pompous". Skilled alpinists come from cities as well as small mountain towns, the only reason we hear so much about "MA/RI/CT/NJ" climbers getting into trouble is they make up 90% of the user group... so I also missed neiceclimber's sarcasm.

I think you are wrong about "guides mentality" setting in though... the vast majority of guides I know are the least likely to bash those who require rescue as harshly as we seem to do online... they also almost all volunteer to assist though MRS...

I've spoken with some people very close to those rescued and discovered originally they called 911 for advice, and were told "stay in place"... this is important. A 911 operator may not understand how "sheltering in place" might put a climbing party at greater risk. They also had no idea if help was on the way, and were psychologically ready to survive the night... so let's go easy on the accusations.

I have confirmed they had a compass, but no map/GPS... this boils down to a very common navigational error that has been made by countless parties (along with some local climbing guides who have climbed the mountain 100+ times), and one member exhausting themselves on the ascent so that when the error was made they felt they could not continue. I do think had they not a cell or PLB they would have probably self-rescued... but once that call to 911 was placed and they were told to stay put the rest was history...

CONCORD — Fish and Game Department officials hope a new "Hike Safe" card provides about $110,000 for search and rescue operations.

Hikers who purchased the card would not be billed if they ever needed to be rescued.

At a public hearing on House Bill 256 before the House Ways and Means Committee Tuesday, key committee members pushed agency officials to include a group rate for organizations such as the Boy Scouts or a town recreation department.

The House voted to preliminarily approve the bill that must pass scrutiny from the committee overseeing taxes and fees.

The Fish and Game Department and lawmakers have tried for years to find additional revenue to cover the cost of search and rescue operations, which cost more than $300,000 a year.

Currently $1 from boat, snowmobile and off-road vehicle registration fees go into the fund, which raises about $180,000 a year. The shortfall comes out of the general fish and game fund, which is revenue from hunting and fishing licenses.

Yet hikers and climbers, who do not pay into the search and rescues fund, account for 57 percent of the missions, said Maj. Kevin Jordan, assistant chief of law enforcement for the department, while those who pay into the fund account for 14 percent of the missions.

The bill's prime sponsor, House Minority Leader Gene Chandler, R-Bartlett, said the situation is not going away and needs to be fixed.

"This doesn't solve the problem, but it is a good first step," he said. "The highest department estimate (of what the card would produce) is still short of what the department needs long-term."

The bill has the backing of the New Hampshire Off-Highway Vehicle Association, whose president, Harry Brown, said it is long overdue.

"We like the playing field leveled," he told the committee. "It's unjust and unfair to have two groups who utilize (search and rescue) services very little bearing the costs. This is cost-shifting."

About 22,000 off-road vehicles and 60,000 snowmobiles are registered each year.

Under the bill, the cost of a hike safe card would be $25 for an individual and $35 for a family. Jordan said the target is 5,000 cards, which would produce about $110,000 a year.

Under the bill, those who pay the registration and license fees as well as the hike safe card holders would not be billed for searches and rescues.

The hike safe card is modeled after a similar program in Colorado that has been in place for a number of years. Local hiking organizations and groups like the Appalachian Mountain Club have said they will promote the cards.

Committee chair Rep. Susan Almy, D-Lebanon, and former chair Rep. Norm Major, R-Plaistow, wondered why the agency had not included a group rate for organizations like the Boy Scouts or a recreation department who might take a group out on a hike.

Jordan said the policy would be if the leader had a hike safe card, others in the group would not be charged for a rescue.

But Almy asked him to consider a group rate and said the committee would explore it as it discusses the bill.

From 2006 to 2012, his agency responded to 957 incidents, Jordan said, and the majority is for missing or injured hikers or climbers.

Other rescues are for those who do pay registration fees and for licenses, and for missing persons or runaways.

"What is killing us are the constant smaller calls," Jordan said.

The state can charge hikers for the cost of the rescue, but most do not pay the bill.

State budget writers have been reluctant to use state general fund money to pay for the rescues and instead have proposed other methods to no avail.

A commission studying alternative ways to raise revenue for the department would be continued under the bill, as would a committee looking at how best to pay for search and rescue operations.

Technology does create a false sense of security; it is however, not the issue here (these four could be dead had it not been for that call-- which didn't go out until after dark, this speculation can be endlessly debated). Washington is a violent mountain with unusual and enticing accessibility. The only method of preventing the stupid shit that's been happening for decades is to limit use to those who are capable. Katahdin is a good example.

I generally shy away from these discussions. However, fixed lines keep appearing on Lion's Head Trail further enabling those who aren't capable of moving higher-- there was a fixed line Sunday that has since been removed. Let's make a community effort to not leave fixed lines and to remove them if we see them appear. I've also gotten to the point where I have tactful conversations with hikers who seem underprepared. We're responsible for each other in the mountains.

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Chris Magness

darwined

I think it's a commendable idea but, how many climbers would willingly pay for the card? Would they make it law that those without a card would be responsible for the cost of a rescue? Would the AAC rescue insurance buy you a "get outta jail free card"?

I'd buy a card even though I'm covered from being an AAC member. Hopefully I never use either and use good judgement before getting into a bad situation.

However all of us no matter how careful we are assessing objective and subjective danger - can still be involved in an accident.

I spent many a trip to the Canadian Rockies hanging out and not climbing based on bad weather even though that was my purpose for making the trip - the risk wasn't worth it. In the end my life is more important than the money I may have spent to get somewhere to climb.

And I do think allot of issues are caused by "summit fever." "We've driven from wherever and I'll be damned I'm getting to the top" type mentality. Fortunately some people are willing to listen to reason from those with more experience or there might even be more rescues. I've had "tactful conversation" with people and they've headed my advice and have actually been thankful for that advice.

While not a particularly bad idea, the "card" is solving the wrong problem. The card is an attempt to address the issue of how to pay for rescues. But the real problem is that there are too many retards doing to many retarded things.

People who pay for rescue insurance, will expect to be rescued...no matter what.

Does anyone honestly think the same people who admitted they were "unfamiliar with the area" and chose to head up MT Washington in the winter without a map, will purchase rescue insurance?