Did u know we had soldiers figting for Stalingrad i wish to upload a pisture but dont know how :cry:

Kroat369.

04-14-2006, 08:59 AM

i know that, this were the soldiers of the 369th infantry division so called "devils division"... i posted som pics, look up :roll:

Strina-Croatia

04-14-2006, 10:10 AM

i looked up and concluded that some more pictures are nedded to get a ful prewiev :wink:

Kroat369.

04-14-2006, 10:39 AM

i agree that more pictures are needed, but they are really really really rare...

Strina-Croatia

04-20-2006, 08:02 AM

i agree but u can also post some pictures from Balkan??

miro da croat

09-21-2006, 12:05 PM

i would like to ask anyone who is an expert of the croatian military, if there were any documents of croatian ndh generals and officers who served in hercegoviana and other regions of southern bosnia. I know that my great uncle was one, but all the people that knew his name and had any documents left have died so i am left with very few sources in trying to find out who he was. Thanks to anyone who can be of some help.

Miro

Jasa

09-22-2006, 08:59 AM

Dobar dan,

The Croats fighting at Stalingrad were indeed the 369th but I believe at that time they had not yet acquired the name of "Devil's Division". They were almost totally wiped out in the fighting at Stalingrad and had to be reconstructed back in Croatia. I can't remember off the top of my head now if they were actually fighting in the city or in the outskirts after Operation Uranus.

Kroat369.

09-26-2006, 04:24 PM

The Regiment's men participated in some of the hardest battles in the attempt to take Stalingrad. A typical day of fighting in Stalingrad for the men of the Regiment was described by the Commander of a platoon of the 3rd Company, Lt. Bucar:

"...When we entered Stalingrad, it was ruined and in flames. We took cover in trenches and bunkers, as the enemy was hitting us with artilley, Katusha rockets, and with aircraft. I was lucky not to lose any men, but the Second Platoon lost one man dead and 5 wounded, and the Third Platoon 13 dead and wounded. Around 6:00am, German Stuka aircraft bombed the area ahead of us, and an attack was ordered towards the northern part of the city. My platoon's mission was to, in conjuction with a German unit, clear the Freight Station, and then the railroad dike, and reach the Volga River. Night fell under constant bombardment. I didn't lose any men, but our transport unit was hit badly, and lost 10 men, 40 horses, and an equipment truck with ammunition..."

Kroat369.

09-26-2006, 04:25 PM

The Commander of the 2nd Battalion, Captain Ivan Coric, described the fighting in Stalingrad as follows:

"...During the night of 26/27 September, Russian aircraft flew extremely low, and bombed the area where my battalion was supposed to be encamped. However, expecting that this section might be hit, we had taken cover in ditches around the area. At 6:00am on the 27th of September, receiving fire from only one part of the city, I re-deployed my men in various deep ditches, and in covered areas. We remained in reserve until 1:00pm, when the Regimental commander ordered that my battalion move out towards the German 227th Regiment's positions. I requested that this move be postponed until dark as the Soviets were bombing the area with heavy artillery and Katusha rockets and I worried about the heavy casualties we would take moving in the open through this barrage. The Commander refused to consider my request, and at 2:00pm, under the heaviest of bombardments, I moved out with my Battalion towards the 227th Regiment, about 10km away. We moved in groups of 3-4 men, with myself and my Adjutant in the lead. After only a few hundred meters, we were hit by immense artillery fire, and my men began to die, one after another. Company Commander Tomas was wounded. About half way to the 227th, we were ordered to stop and for myself and my Adjutant to report to the Commander of the 227th Regiment. I arranged my men in ditches and cover in the surrounding area. The Commander of the 227th Regiment, Lt.Colonel Mohr, ordered my battalion to reinforce his weakened regiment, and for myself and my staff to remain in the vicinity of his HQ. Upon receiving these orders, and returning to my men, darkness had fallen. We moved out towards the positions of the 227th, crawling through ditches. Under a moonlight sky, Soviet airplanes easily noticed us and bombed us with Phosphorus bombs that burn upon explosion. Many of my men were in flames. It was a horrible sight. Healthy and wounded jumped in to try and save our burning comrades... My Battalion, now attached to the 227th Regiment, advanced with great difficulty, taking house by house. During the night of the 28th of September 1942, I was forced to leave my men due to a serious head wound I received from an airplane bomb. My Adjutant, Lt. Tomislav Jelic, was wounded in this explosion as well. I later heard that my men continued to fight heroically until the last man of the 2nd battalion had fallen."

Kroat369.

09-26-2006, 04:26 PM

By the 13th of October the 369th Regiment was down to one weak battalion and 2 weak independent companies consisting of only 983 men total out of the original Regiment, including all reinforcements arrived from Stokerau. Still on this day, the Regiment managed to advance a further 800 meters into the northern sector of Stalingrad.

On the 16th of October 1942, Colonel-General Sanne decorated Croatian Sergeant Dragutin Podobnik with the Iron Cross 1st Class for extreme heroism during the taking of the Red October factory on the 30th of September. Colonel Pavicic is also decorated with this medal for his excellent leadership of the Regiment.

During the remaining days of October 1942 the Regiment fought hard and its losses accumulated. The Red October factory was continously the center of fighting during this time. A Soviet counter-attack along the railway tracks near the Red October factory was just barely contained, and Russian civilians were even seen shooting Croatian and German soldiers, prompting an order to fire indescriminately on all civilians found in the battle zone. October 31st 1942 was spent defending Building number ten of the Red October factory.

On November 3rd 1942, the 369th Regiment had the following troops still available: 1 infantry company with 98 men and 8 light machine-guns, a heavy machine-gun company with 73 men and one operational heavy machine-gun, and an anti-tank company with 20 men and 6 cannon - only enough men to serve two! The total remaining Croatian soldiers was 191. Of this, only 4 were officers. This number does not include the artillery battery, whose men and weapons were scattered throughout various German units. On the 4th of November, a battalion of replacements arrived from Stokerau, but even these much needed men barely made the "reinforced regiment" a reinforced battalion!

On the 6th of November the remains of the unit were attached to the German 212th Infantry Regiment. Fighting continued in and around the Red October factory. On November 21st 1942, news of a Soviet attack on the flanks of the 6.Armee was heard. By November 25th 1942, the lines being held by the Regiment were so thinly manned that Soviet scouts were able to pass through poritions of the front into the Gemran rear. Every available man, including the sick and lightly wounded, were therefore sent to hold the line.

There were 5 officers, 9 NCO's and 110 soldiers left fighting at the end of November, 1942. Food was carefully rationed and consists of 120 grams of horse meat per meal along with some bread. Of the 3 daily meals, only one was considered large, and this consisted of only 1/2 of the required amount to sustain troops from day-to-day.

As December arrived, the few remaining Croatian soldiers were frozen, hungry and in the midst of a general lack of ammunition and weapons. The commanding officer, Colonel Pavicic, was by now living in his own world writing out irrelevant daily orders to troops and units that no longer existed. On the 17th of December, the Volga River froze over allowing the Soviets to open another front on that side of the city as well.

On Christmas Day, 1942, Lt. Korobkin wrote:

"...Today, December 25, 1942, around noon, the enemy attacked from Building number 4 into Building number 2 (Red October Factory), which is our left flank. The enemy fought his way into number 2. Our defenders are under constant fire from the 'small white house' accross from Building number 2. A cannon shot by the enemy has destroyed our heavy machine-gun. At the same time as this attack on our left flank, the enemy attacked our right flank. Despite cross-fire and artillery support, this attack was thrown back. This success is mostly due to the heroism of Corporal Ivan Vadlje. In the evening we received a message from Lt.-Colonel Eichler, congratulating us for holding out. When night fell, we took advantage of the dark, and counter-attacked on our left flank. Using hand grenades, we destroyed the enemy unit, and re-took our previous positions. Lt-Colonel Eichler, upon hearing of this success, sent us a new message, in which he says that the Grenadiers of the 212th Regiment are proud to have warriors like us Croats in their midst. Sergeants Ante Martinovic and Franjo Filcic were killed in this counter-attack. 12 men are wounded."

On January 10th, 1943, Colonel Pavicic, in his report to the 100.J&#228;ger-Division, wrote:

"I must say that, in the period from September 27, 1942, when we arrived at Stalingrad, till today, my men have had only 4 days of rest. The last day of rest, on the 30th of December for 24 hours, was insufficient even for required sleep, as after 3 days and nights of constant battles in and around the Red October, they were so over-tired, that they slept like they were dead, and never even had time to wash, shave, or cut their hair. Immediately after this short rest, they were again thrown into the thick of battle, holding a small salient in our lines. They held this position until the 9th of January, 1943, when they were pulled back into our current position. We are under attack here again today."

On the 16th of January 1943, the Soviets launched an attack from three sides of the Croatian positions. They were pushed several streets back and a group led by Lt. Fiember was cut off. Under heavy attack, this group ran out of ammunition and was later over-run. Lt.Colonel Kuhlwein attempted to save young Fiember and his men by counter-attacking, but all of the men of this attack were killed, including Lt.-Colonel Kuhlwein. Lieutenants Zubcevski, Korobkin and Vadlja, with a few surviving soldiers, continued to battle against this Soviet attack and soon all three were seriously wounded. The German command then ordered that the last survivng Croats be pulled from the battle lines and be employed in digging fortification lines around the former Soviet Airforce Academy, which would serve as the last defense point of the unit.

Shortly after, Colonel Pavicic requested from the 100.J&#228;ger-Division that he be replaced. As he has no more men, just a few wounded, he felt he was useless. He suggested that Lt.-Colonel Mesic (Commander of the artillery battery) replace him, and that he (Pavicic) be flown out of Stalingrad back to Stokerau where a German-Croatian Division was being formed to fight the partisans in the Balkans (This would be the 369th "Devil's" Division, see below). On the 20th of January 1943, Colonel Pavicic attempted to fly out of Stalingrad. It is a complete mystery what happened to him. Two possibilites exist, one that his plane was shot down and the other that he had attempted to leave without the orders of the Divisional Command and was executed in those last mad days of the Stalingrad pocket. The former is more likely the truth, as there is a witness (Sergeant Ervin Juric) amongst the surviving Croatians that claims to have seen the orders arrive for Pavicic from General Sanne.

On the 23rd of January 1943, 18 wounded Croatians were flown out of Stalingrad. They were the last Croatians to leave Stalingalive. Amongst these lucky souls was Croatian Sergeant Juric, who wrote and carried with him to safety the Kriegstagbuch (unit war diary) of the 369th Reinforced Regiment, thereby saving for posterity the ultimate memorial to these brave men. The only entry in the diary after January 23rd 1943 is "February 2, 1943, Stalingrad has fallen".

Lt.-Colonel Mesic remained in Stalingrad after January 23rd 1943 with the few surviving men of the Regiment. Most died in the desperate battles at the end. Mesic and a handfull of soldiers survived and surrendered to the Soviets. They were forced to walk with no warm clothes and no food, all the way to Moscow. Here, they were thrown into a fenced field where they had to dig holes in the snow for protection from the elements. They were fed once a day and in 1945, Mesic was sent to Yugoslavia where the Communists government had him liquidated.

The remnants of the 369th that had been evacuated by air from Stalingrad due to wounds, sickness, etc, were sent to Stockerau where they alongside the replacement battalion of the former Regiment, formed the core of a new Croatian infantry unit, the 369th Vrazja Division, or Devil's Division. There were approximately 1,000 of these former veterans of the original Croatian Regiment. They were all awarded a special honor badge called the "Croatian Legion Badge - 1941" shaped as a Linden leaf with the Croat checkerboard and the words "Hrvatska Legija - 1941" on it.

Strina-Croatia

09-27-2006, 12:13 PM

Omg what heroic eforrts and so many men died over one building !!!!Croatians are the elite force of any army in which they are recruited

Jasa

09-28-2006, 04:11 AM

Except in the Domobrane!!! Just kidding guys.

Chevan

09-28-2006, 06:48 AM

Omg what heroic eforrts and so many men died over one building !!!!Croatians are the elite force of any army in which they are recruited
Really, croatians was the "elite guns meat" of germans ( like italians , romanians and hungarians ) in Stalingrad.
Good boys and universal soldiers, they died for any army and idea who recruited them :(

Jasa

09-28-2006, 07:09 AM

Really, croatians was the "elite guns meat" of germans ( like italians , romanians and hungarians ) in Stalingrad.
Good boys and universal soldiers, they died for any army and idea who recruited them :(

Actually the Croatians shouldn't be compared to the Romanians or Italians- they were MUCH better fighters and could probably not be equalled by anyone but the Finns or the Slovaks.

Chevan

09-28-2006, 12:21 PM

Actually the Croatians shouldn't be compared to the Romanians or Italians- they were MUCH better fighters and could probably not be equalled by anyone but the Finns or the Slovaks.
I am not this mean Jasa ;)
It's not importain how did croatians fight - just importaint for what. For Adolf Hitler or somebody simular - amoral chose. Be help Germans in Stalingrad they were deserved its fate.

Nickdfresh

09-28-2006, 09:28 PM

I am not this mean Jasa ;)
It's not importain how did croatians fight - just importaint for what. For Adolf Hitler or somebody simular - amoral chose. Be help Germans in Stalingrad they were deserved its fate.

You should like them Chevan, they believe stupid anti-Semitic propaganda too.:)

Dani

09-29-2006, 12:28 AM

Actually the Croatians shouldn't be compared to the Romanians or Italians- they were MUCH better fighters and could probably not be equalled by anyone but the Finns or the Slovaks.

Oh, I see. Maybe that's why Romanian Army foughts side by side with the Red Army in Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Austria after 23rd of August 1944.;)

Jasa

09-29-2006, 05:42 AM

Oh, I see. Maybe that's why Romanian Army foughts side by side with the Red Army in Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Austria after 23rd of August 1944.;)

Ok ok I'm sorry. But I was basing my statements on the claims of Germans- I haven't had the time to do my own appraisal. I personally like Romanians and other Balkan people.

Strina-Croatia

10-01-2006, 07:14 AM

I am not this mean Jasa ;)
It's not importain how did croatians fight - just importaint for what. For Adolf Hitler or somebody simular - amoral chose. Be help Germans in Stalingrad they were deserved its fate.

dont talk like that, it ofends me and all other croatians, this are the stories about heroism and morale to go on fighting in the circumstances like those.We ,the croatians, where fighting with our allies just like the hungaryians and the roman cavalry units in and around Stalingrad.

Jasa

10-01-2006, 08:09 AM

dont talk like that, it ofends me and all other croatians, this are the stories about heroism and morale to go on fighting in the circumstances like those.We ,the croatians, where fighting with our allies just like the hungaryians and the roman cavalry units in and around Stalingrad.

Strina, I (we) don't negate the heroism and bravery of croatian soldiers, only try to say that battle in stalingrad isn't battle for croatia... it's the battle for nazi germany and adolph hitler

Slazem se. The Croats treated Russian prisoners much better according to David Littlejohn.

15.JG.52_Vukodlak

01-06-2007, 08:23 PM

Really, croatians was the "elite guns meat" of germans ( like italians , romanians and hungarians ) in Stalingrad.
Good boys and universal soldiers, they died for any army and idea who recruited them :(
---------------------
I am not this mean Jasa
It's not importain how did croatians fight - just importaint for what. For Adolf Hitler or somebody simular - amoral chose. Be help Germans in Stalingrad they were deserved its fate.

I find these statements bang out of order considering.

They (the Croat Legion) fought for who they believed would bring freedom from Serb opression and independence from the same...an opression that lasted for about 30 years prior to ww2. The NDH regime was not supported by the majority of Croats. It was installed and controlled by Italians and Germans (mostly Italians) whom we had to endure for a while...also Tito was in fact a Croat and most Croats raised up in arms fighting against Hitler as Partisans...and they were betrayed by that communist regime as well. So, please, be a little more careful of how easily you generalize against an entire people like you have done...its just plain offensive.

On one point I do agree with you however...it doesnt matter how they died, what really matters is how they lived...they fought ernestly and honorably, against all odds, to the bitter end, for a dream of liberty...that is what makes them warriors worthy of recognition.

Besides before they came to Stalingrad this unit was mentioned in an OKW comunique for capturing 5000 Soviets while on the move between Voronezh to Stalingrad as a part of the 6th army...and the Soviets had actually preffered to surrender to fellow slavs rather than germanic agressors due to a much better treatment received than from the latter.

maki

02-16-2007, 03:40 PM

Hi to all !

Red this topic and that was the reason for me to register because I had to reply !

Some of people here are young and don't and don’t know any thing about Croatian history witch is full of blood as you can see from the pictures.

NDH was a fistic satellite of Nazi Germany ( Know now all good non educated Croatians will attack me)

Well before I continue let me introduce my self I am Croatian and I am living in Croatia (unlike some) I had two member of my family in Ustasa and one on the Russian front.

Well in the beginning Croats wanted there own country, and because UK and allies where kissing the Yugoslavian kings *** in London it was not real expected from them to help us get one. So we turned to the other side witch on that time was Germans so they brought form Italy Pavelic Ante witch started an idea of NDH (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska) in the start all Croatians were behind him and the idea but soo as usual with our luck Pavelic started selling our land he gave half of costal part to Italians and other inland to Germans, to get what som stinky part of Bosnia so of course Croatians in the “forgotten parts “ stud up because we are a brave people and ****ed up Germans and Italians well ths ones wher the Partisans (the biggest anti fascist force in occupied territories) The Ustasa regular army where the best of Croats, they are not the fascistic they where fighting for a peace of land to call there own as the Partisans did but the political top with the Sokolari this ones where pure blood sucking cowards.

To back my words Ante Pavelic is the biggest coward in Croatian History for the sol reason when it become tight he left owner 300,000 civilians and army in Austria and took the gold and fled.

Ustasa regulars where brave young boys with brave heart and love for there homeland, only mistake was that they where led by a coward

Egorka

02-19-2007, 10:54 AM

Hello Guys!

Just got this though while reading about the Stalingrad battles mentioned here:
"Oh, what heroic efort and so many men died over one building !!!! Russians are the elite force of any army in which they are recruited."

Just a thought...

Panzerknacker

02-20-2007, 09:40 PM

Letting politics motivation aside any other member wich understimate or mock about or make some way of demeaning of an army ( any army) of the ww2 like this:

Really, croatians was the "elite guns meat" of germans ( like italians , romanians and hungarians ) in Stalingrad.
Good boys and universal soldiers, they died for any army and idea who recruited them

...would be "awarded" with some infraction points.

There was no saints in the WW2 no the croats, no the russians , not the germans, not the british, so there is no reason for such comments.

I will not give any infaction to chevan because I did not browse this topic earlier, but you are all warned.

Egorka

02-21-2007, 05:18 AM

UUhhhhhh... I feel the chill of iron grip of the master...

Panzerknacker

02-21-2007, 06:31 PM

Just putting the things straight.

Egorka

02-22-2007, 03:13 AM

Hello!

Were the Croation units formed as volontiers as for example in Denmark, Nederllands, ect?
Or were they forced by Germans to defend Croatian interests almost 2000 km away from the Motherland?

Strina-Croatia

03-18-2007, 05:27 AM

Hello!

Were the Croation units formed as volontiers as for example in Denmark, Nederllands, ect?
Or were they forced by Germans to defend Croatian interests almost 2000 km away from the Motherland?

They were forced by germans in the homeland the homedefence brigades(domobrani) were forced by Pavelic.The ustash (an army formed out of the NDH partie like the SS in Germany) were the only volontires.

Egorka

03-18-2007, 08:05 AM

They were forced by germans in the homeland the homedefence brigades(domobrani) were forced by Pavelic.The ustash (an army formed out of the NDH partie like the SS in Germany) were the only volontires.

So those from 369th in Stalingrad were ustash nazies, or who?

And, please, do not mistake "drafting" and "forcing". If they were "forced" to homedefence as you said, it put question mark on their patriotism, which you would object. So please take a pik, "drafting" or "forcing".

Strina-Croatia

03-18-2007, 12:26 PM

Well sorry for my mistake it was a draft but you must understand that those were people who were not familiar how to hold a rifle they were mostly people who were working in fields and lived in the countryside.The patriotism that you mentioned was not questiable because when the german 14.army started the advance from Nagykaniza the Jugoslaw army colapsed because it was led by the serbian generals and high oficers who fled immeditly and the only people who stayed and fought were the bosnian and croatian soldiers but still it was insuficient to hold them off because they mostly died confronting tanks .Because of that Pavelic drafted people who never heard what is a MG or a tank.The 369 division were first the volontiers but after the fightings at the DON river the casulties were changed for the people from the DOMOBRAN divisions.

Chevan

03-18-2007, 01:53 PM

Oh what's a nice thread i've which forget to watch.

dont talk like that, it ofends me and all other croatians, this are the stories about heroism and morale to go on fighting in the circumstances like those.We ,the croatians, where fighting with our allies just like the hungaryians and the roman cavalry units in and around Stalingrad.

Sorry Strina for frankness , but i don't see the reason to make a heros from the people who fought together with Nazy and killed my countryments. You, the croatians, fought in ALIEN territory for ALIEN army for the ALIEN race's ideals ( or i'm wrong?)
The question "how" they did - is just last right after - "why" they did it?And the explanation is - they did it just like the hungaryians and the roman cavalry IS NOT JUSTIFY the colloborations with ( and for ) Hitler.
Next step of your logic could be the delight from the Waffen-SS bravery from the Eastern Europe. Who also desperately fought for its lifes ( and they had the INPORTAINT reason - they had the fear of retribution for its crimes above civils population of occuped territories)

Cheers.

15.JG.52_Vukodlak

03-19-2007, 03:15 PM

Oh what's a nice thread i've which forget to watch.

Sorry Strina for frankness , but i don't see the reason to make a heros from the people who fought together with Nazy and killed my countryments. You, the croatians, fought in ALIEN territory for ALIEN army for the ALIEN race's ideals ( or i'm wrong?)
The question "how" they did - is just last right after - "why" they did it?And the explanation is - they did it just like the hungaryians and the roman cavalry IS NOT JUSTIFY the colloborations with ( and for ) Hitler.
Next step of your logic could be the delight from the Waffen-SS bravery from the Eastern Europe. Who also desperately fought for its lifes ( and they had the INPORTAINT reason - they had the fear of retribution for its crimes above civils population of occuped territories)

Cheers.

Actually you are wrong on multiple issues...the Hungarians, Italians, Checks, Romanians or whathave-you fought as their own countries, soldiers with their own officers, under their own counties command and with their own uniforms and equipment. These croats (from the 369.) were mostly volonteers that fought as a part of a German unit, the 100th Yaeger division (the Croats were at the strength of one single regiment)...their uniforms , weapons and other equipment was German. The regiment was staffed by mostly german officers that were either "pure" German or Croats of German descent...actually all of the legion was comprised mostly like that...all the way down to lowly privates.

They all (the Croatian volonteers from the 369.) went on to fight at the side of who was still percieved to be the ony ally...as in the only ones that promissed an independent Croatia.
This promise was of course a bunch of lies and here's proof by a non Croatian source
Gen. Maj. F.W. von Mellenthin in his book "Panzer battles" states:

"...Forty-sixth Panzer Corps of second army swept down on Belgrade from the northwest, and made rapid progress against negligable resistance. The Corps was opposed mainly by Croats, who had been so influence by our propaganda that some units mutinied and greeted us as "liberators". The main body of the 46th Panzer Corps entered Belgrade on 12 April, while another panzer division occupied Zagreb and was received entusiasticallyby the population....

....On 11 April our army headquarters moved into Zagreb, where we found the population well-disposed towards Germany, a fact undoubtedly due to the efficient Imperial-Austrian administration before 1914. Unfortunately our political leaders saw fit to hand this area over to Italy, in deference to Mussolini's ambitions. The Italians proceeded to set ip a Croatian state entirely dependent on themselves, and soon alienated some of our best friends."

-------------------------

Apparently mister Chevan you have trouble diferrentiating between fighting men and supporters of political parties and or ideas. So lets talk about it, a bit ,so that you may understand us Croats better here opon this subject.

Someone that fought in the Red Army was not automatically a communist...many sources speak of Russian soldiers having distrust, disdain and sometimes even outright hatred towards their own communist regime. That didnt make them deserters, faschists or less of a Russian in any way shape or form...it didnt even make them poor soldiers. Sometimes even your national heroes were indeed people that were cohersed to join the Communist party only for propaganda values.

The same principle goes also to other factions in that and in any other timeframe...so you indeed have many Germans who were never a part of the Nazi party (National Sotialist party of Germany that is). They never liked Hitler and they hated his presumptious behaviour as the GROFAZ. But they stayed in the Wermacht or luftwaffe and fought like praiseworthy soldiers...just like many Russians have on the opposite side.

And so, is it so unbelievable to you that a bunch of Croats like us set asside the ideologies ands propaganda of the time and "make" heroes of men that went on to fight for our Country...men that lived, fought and died honorably?

I put the parenthesis on make because we did not make them heroes...they already were heroes we merely acknowledge their struggles.
-----------------------------------

In the end I guess we are all entitled to our subjective oppinions but none of us have the right to our own facts.

Strina-Croatia

03-19-2007, 04:56 PM

Oh what's a nice thread i've which forget to watch.

Sorry Strina for frankness , but i don't see the reason to make a heros from the people who fought together with Nazy and killed my countryments. You, the croatians, fought in ALIEN territory for ALIEN army for the ALIEN race's ideals ( or i'm wrong?)
The question "how" they did - is just last right after - "why" they did it?And the explanation is - they did it just like the hungaryians and the roman cavalry IS NOT JUSTIFY the colloborations with ( and for ) Hitler.
Next step of your logic could be the delight from the Waffen-SS bravery from the Eastern Europe. Who also desperately fought for its lifes ( and they had the INPORTAINT reason - they had the fear of retribution for its crimes above civils population of occuped territories)

Cheers.

Yes sorry i didnt want to offend you all you say is very true please except my apologies.

Chevan

03-20-2007, 05:59 AM

Yes sorry i didnt want to offend you all you say is very true please except my apologies.
No problems mate , don't worry i have no insulting fom you couse i know you are the good guy ;)

Chevan

03-20-2007, 06:19 AM

Actually you are wrong on multiple issues...the Hungarians, Italians, Checks, Romanians or whathave-you fought as their own countries, soldiers with their own officers, under their own counties command and with their own uniforms and equipment. These croats (from the 369.) were mostly volonteers that fought as a part of a German unit, the 100th Yaeger division (the Croats were at the strength of one single regiment)...their uniforms , weapons and other equipment was German. The regiment was staffed by mostly german officers that were either "pure" German or Croats of German descent...actually all of the legion was comprised mostly like that...all the way down to lowly privates.

They all (the Croatian volonteers from the 369.) went on to fight at the side of who was still percieved to be the ony ally...as in the only ones that promissed an independent Croatia.
This promise was of course a bunch of lies and here's proof by a non Croatian source
Gen. Maj. F.W. von Mellenthin in his book "Panzer battles" states:

"...Forty-sixth Panzer Corps of second army swept down on Belgrade from the northwest, and made rapid progress against negligable resistance. The Corps was opposed mainly by Croats, who had been so influence by our propaganda that some units mutinied and greeted us as "liberators". The main body of the 46th Panzer Corps entered Belgrade on 12 April, while another panzer division occupied Zagreb and was received entusiasticallyby the population....

....On 11 April our army headquarters moved into Zagreb, where we found the population well-disposed towards Germany, a fact undoubtedly due to the efficient Imperial-Austrian administration before 1914. Unfortunately our political leaders saw fit to hand this area over to Italy, in deference to Mussolini's ambitions. The Italians proceeded to set ip a Croatian state entirely dependent on themselves, and soon alienated some of our best friends."

-------------------------

Apparently mister Chevan you have trouble diferrentiating between fighting men and supporters of political parties and or ideas. So lets talk about it, a bit ,so that you may understand us Croats better here opon this subject.

Someone that fought in the Red Army was not automatically a communist...many sources speak of Russian soldiers having distrust, disdain and sometimes even outright hatred towards their own communist regime. That didnt make them deserters, faschists or less of a Russian in any way shape or form...it didnt even make them poor soldiers. Sometimes even your national heroes were indeed people that were cohersed to join the Communist party only for propaganda values.

The same principle goes also to other factions in that and in any other timeframe...so you indeed have many Germans who were never a part of the Nazi party (National Sotialist party of Germany that is). They never liked Hitler and they hated his presumptious behaviour as the GROFAZ. But they stayed in the Wermacht or luftwaffe and fought like praiseworthy soldiers...just like many Russians have on the opposite side.

And so, is it so unbelievable to you that a bunch of Croats like us set asside the ideologies ands propaganda of the time and "make" heroes of men that went on to fight for our Country...men that lived, fought and died honorably?

I put the parenthesis on make because we did not make them heroes...they already were heroes we merely acknowledge their struggles.
-----------------------------------

In the end I guess we are all entitled to our subjective oppinions but none of us have the right to our own facts.

Were the Croation units formed as volontiers as for example in Denmark, Nederllands, ect?
Or were they forced by Germans to defend Croatian interests almost 2000 km away from the Motherland?

The members of the 369. were volonteers and is one of two infantry units sent as volonteers to the eastern front. Soon after its formation the Italians started to complain and demand that since Croats went to fight for Germans then they must fight for Italy as well. The intended replacments for the 369. that were in training in austria were then rerouted to Italy for equipment and reorganisation...the Italians called it the "Legione Croata Autotransportabile" or the "Mechanized Croatian Legion" and they were attached to the 3rd Celere Division “Principe Amedeo Duca d’Aosta”. This unit was completely destroyed (overrun after they were out of ammunition) fighting on the Don.

These were the only two infantry volonteer units (both at regiment strength) that Croatia had fighting outside Croatia...as part of the NDH regimes efforts. There were also the AA Legion (that was never really formed as such) the 15.(kroat)\JG.52 fighter legion the bomber legion and a naval legion. After the initial two 369. and the "Legione Croata Autotransportabile" were destroyed most of the personell was indeed drafted and assigned to the units. The reason why the Naval legion was formed is that the NDH didnt have permission from the Italians to have a navy at all. All of these units had sub par armaments and were plaged by poor logistical support...so in the 15.JG.52 when the rest of the squadron was flying in BF109g variants the Croats received the almost obsolete Bf109e-4 from the failed german african campaign.

Oh, and no most of these men were not Nazi, nor Croatian "pro" Nazi oriented.

Egorka

03-21-2007, 11:55 AM

Hi Vukodlak,

Oh, and no most of these men were not Nazi, nor Croatian "pro" Nazi oriented.
Please do not take it as a provocation.
But do you also have the same high opinion about russian volontiers that fought for Serbs in the 1990s? Neither of them were nazi too!

Peace and love!

15.JG.52_Vukodlak

03-21-2007, 02:04 PM

Hi Vukodlak,

Please do not take it as a provocation.
But do you also have the same high opinion about russian volontiers that fought for Serbs in the 1990s? Neither of them were nazi too!

Peace and love!

Hey Egorka,
I am seldom ever offended by an honest question but I do appreciate your distinction and tactful approach.

And to answer your question no in truth I dont. They, I assume were the same as some of the British, French, German and other foerign national volonteers that came as individuals that fought on Croatias side in that conflict. Not much better than guns for hire and adventurers mostly...at least the ones that I have personally met. I am not personally equainted with any Russians that did that for Serbia or their exploits, so I can't comment on what kind of men they were. They were misguided and made a poor choice in picking a side is all I know.

I hold in much greater esteem the Serbs who fought alongside my countrymen. Truth be told I even hold in good esteem some of the Serbs we fought against just for the principles and restraint that they showed during the conflict...warriors like these are a rare breed everywhere.

Egorka

03-21-2007, 05:31 PM

Vukodlak,

But what difference do you see between the members of 369th Croatian division in Stalingrad and the Russian volunteers in the Croatia in 1990s?

I can not say I speak with much knowledge, but their roles look the same to me. The later might even have better image in my eyes, because they (the one guy I know about) thought they are helping a weak side. I do not think those Croats joined 369th division because they thought that Germany was weak and needed help.

You see we have several key points similar: were volunteers, consciously went 1000 km from their land, helped foreign country.

Actually I am not judging either of them. Either could have clean conscious if did not commit purpusfull crimes. But the role was tragic and probably not what they themself intendet to be.

15.JG.52_Vukodlak

03-22-2007, 03:16 PM

Vukodlak,

But what difference do you see between the members of 369th Croatian division in Stalingrad and the Russian volunteers in the Croatia in 1990s?

I can not say I speak with much knowledge, but their roles look the same to me. The later might even have better image in my eyes, because they (the one guy I know about) thought they are helping a weak side. I do not think those Croats joined 369th division because they thought that Germany was weak and needed help.

You see we have several key points similar: were volunteers, consciously went 1000 km from their land, helped foreign country.

Actually I am not judging either of them. Either could have clean conscious if did not commit purpusfull crimes. But the role was tragic and probably not what they themself intendet to be.

I am not sure what you are asking of me here. So Ill just reiterate and expand.

The difference between the two (in my eyes) is that I dont know jack about who those russian volonteers were or what they were like...and I have no opinion on them due to a lack of information.

Lack of information (on your friends behalf) is also when you describe that this friend of yours went to help a weak side...the Serbs had the JNA which was the third or fourth most powerfull military (if memory servs me right) in Europe at that time... and were fighting against Croatian civillians mostly.

Thirdly the 369. wasnt a division but a regiment, that was assigned to the 100th Jaeger division. After Stalingrad the Regiment was disbanded.

After that a new division strength unit was formed and manned by the intended replacements for the original 369. and survivors from the original 369. that fought at Stalingrad. This new division was named the 369. Vrazja Divizija (the devils division) in honor of the former "369. Kroatichen Verstaken Regiment" also known as the Croatian Volonteer Legion (or Hrvatska Legija in Croatian) and also the nickname "Vrazja" was given to it by its members in honor of a memory of a mostly Croat Austro-Hungarian Division that bore the same name and fought in WW1. This new 369. division after its forming fought only inside Croatia's borders and included not volonteers but mostly drafted personell that was assigned to it.

And I really fail to see any similarities in the political situation of Croatia at the beguinning of WW2 as a caouse for Croats volonteering and and the political sitation that led Russian volonteers to Serbia in the 90-ties.

Egorka

03-22-2007, 08:08 PM

I am not sure what you are asking of me here. So Ill just reiterate and expand.

The difference between the two (in my eyes) is that I dont know jack about who those russian volonteers were or what they were like...and I have no opinion on them due to a lack of information.

Lack of information (on your friends behalf) is also when you describe that this friend of yours went to help a weak side...the Serbs had the JNA which was the third or fourth most powerfull military (if memory servs me right) in Europe at that time... and were fighting against Croatian civillians mostly.

Thirdly the 369. wasnt a division but a regiment, that was assigned to the 100th Jaeger division. After Stalingrad the Regiment was disbanded.

After that a new division strength unit was formed and manned by the intended replacements for the original 369. and survivors from the original 369. that fought at Stalingrad. This new division was named the 369. Vrazja Divizija (the devils division) in honor of the former "369. Kroatichen Verstaken Regiment" also known as the Croatian Volonteer Legion (or Hrvatska Legija in Croatian) and also the nickname "Vrazja" was given to it by its members in honor of a memory of a mostly Croat Austro-Hungarian Division that bore the same name and fought in WW1. This new 369. division after its forming fought only inside Croatia's borders and included not volonteers but mostly drafted personell that was assigned to it.

And I really fail to see any similarities in the political situation of Croatia at the beguinning of WW2 as a caouse for Croats volonteering and and the political sitation that led Russian volonteers to Serbia in the 90-ties.

Hi Vukodlak,

Vuko = wolf, right? Dlak = ? :confused:

The guy I reffered is not someone I know, I just read his diary on the Internet. I vaigly remember that they were up to app. 50 people in their "russian" brigade. And he went to Serbia as voluntier (which was absolutely illegal in Russia) because he wanted to help a weaker side. He thought at least like that and some others he mentioned.

I just mean that those Croats that voluntiered (how many?) and ended up in Stalingrad, do you think their actions are of different nature compared to those russian voluntiers? Do not you think what they did was very similar?

Just want to know your opinion as I don't know much about the conflict on Balkans in the 1990s.

Thanks!

15.JG.52_Vukodlak

03-23-2007, 02:27 PM

Hi Vukodlak,

Vuko = wolf, right? Dlak = ? :confused:

The guy I reffered is not someone I know, I just read his diary on the Internet. I vaigly remember that they were up to app. 50 people in their "russian" brigade. And he went to Serbia as voluntier (which was absolutely illegal in Russia) because he wanted to help a weaker side. He thought at least like that and some others he mentioned.

I just mean that those Croats that voluntiered (how many?) and ended up in Stalingrad, do you think their actions are of different nature compared to those russian voluntiers? Do not you think what they did was very similar?

Just want to know your opinion as I don't know much about the conflict on Balkans in the 1990s.

Thanks!

In the broadest sense, and with th lack of information...yep, I guess that it would be kinda sorta the same.

Vukodlak...Vuk = wolf; Dlak = hary so literally it would be a hary wolf...but it translates as Werewolf.

Panzerknacker

03-30-2007, 10:33 PM

Some color plates ( not very detailed scans, that is for sure) of the book "Foreign Volunteers in the Whermacht" by Carlos Caballero Jurado.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8239/croataiq3.jpg

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8066/dibujojq3.jpg

skoks

04-15-2007, 04:17 PM

The croats have been fighting for centuries for a free country and only God knows how they survived.They are the best fighters in the world(in my opinion)

srry i only read the starting of the chat i wasnt on topic

skoks

04-15-2007, 04:35 PM

panzerknacker nice pics which book are those from?????I don't know much about croat history or politics but im on this forum to find out:)

Panzerknacker

04-16-2007, 08:51 PM

The book is quoted above "Foreing volunteers in the Whermacht" by Carlos Caballero Jurado.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=Q5243

Welcome to our forum by the way.:rolleyes:

Croat

04-22-2007, 08:46 AM

kako dobiješ činove ovo privat sargent i to, how can i get i higher rank like sargent or corporal:confused:

Panzerknacker

04-22-2007, 09:36 PM

Simply participating in the forum, but avoid any spam in order to get the ranks :rolleyes:

Croat

04-23-2007, 04:18 AM

Thank you what's a spam

Panzerknacker

04-24-2007, 07:37 PM

Spam is a repetitive, senceless, and or advertising post.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/33/dibujoxv3.jpg

Croat

04-26-2007, 05:28 AM

Za dom spremni!

tankgeezer

05-04-2007, 01:02 AM

I am sorry that I cannot understand the politics of who was with whom in the war, in the places, and battles you all speak of. I am also Croatian through my Father's side, His mother was Croatian,maiden name Snajow, from a village named Clana. His Father was from Germany, later Czech, or is it the other way round. at any rate, He left his ancestral home, Raspenau, which is the name of the Barony his family had held.I dont know if the title is yet exstant. The Family name is Raspe. He left all of that behind, and walked eventually into Croatia, and settled there. also in Clana. He and his future wife emigrated to the U.S. in 1906. But, they didnt actually meet or know of each other until after they were both here. I am a second generation American, my father being the first. I dont know anything more about the history of Croatia, so reading your posts is a great pleasure for me. Thank you all. - Raspenau -

Croat

05-25-2007, 06:05 AM

Možemo mi i na hrvatskom pričat a?

Kato

05-25-2007, 07:38 AM

I have a question to Croats. A bit off the topic. But what are the origins of the Croation nation. I've heard the Croats origianally lived in the Carpathians in the territories of modern Ukraine and by the IX century a half of the nation had moved to the Balkans and a half of them remained and later contributed to creating the Ukrainian nation. Or is it incorrect information?

tankgeezer

05-25-2007, 05:42 PM

Možemo mi i na hrvatskom pričat a?

Most of us do not read or speak Croatian, so could you please translate for us? -Raspenau -

Egorka

05-25-2007, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Croat
Možemo mi i na hrvatskom pričat a?Most of us do not read or speak Croatian, so could you please translate for us? -Raspenau -

I can not read and speak Croatian either. But here is my bet: "Can we also write in Croatian, ah?" :)

Ahh... the sweet feeling of the ansient slavonic brotherhood! :mrgreen:

tankgeezer

06-22-2007, 08:38 AM

Thank you Igor,, My relatives would never teach us the language, (just yell at us, or each other in it.. :) )

Croat

07-15-2007, 12:07 PM

Pozdrav domovini

C/S 62

10-02-2007, 04:43 AM

Comrades, Being a NFG to this site I find that some of the comments hard to understand. Why denegrate people for what they did, we were not there and as such we do not know or understand what they went through. Problem is that whilst we all have family members who served, over time their perception of what happened changes and things are not as clear cut as they were. We as youngsters listen to the storys/tales that we are told after the event and tend to remember the bad bits ie who did what to who because he/they were from a different ethnic group/family/clan. I do not wish to fall out with any one but we must always try to look at the wider picture and try and understand the reasons why.

Croat

01-01-2008, 05:36 PM

I agree with C/S

penakalaa

01-17-2008, 08:02 PM

Here are some photos from Croatian soldiers in Stalingrad

Panzerknacker

01-18-2008, 08:49 AM

Nice photos but:

The first picture in the left is not Stalingrad, the Stg 44 and Panzerfaust 60, weapons next to the soldier, entered in service in 1944....so you figure.

Librarian

01-18-2008, 12:22 PM

Furthermore, my dear Mr. Penkala, in accordance with this piece of information, already presented within a highly renowned web-site gewehr43.com, aforementioned photo actually represents a portrait of the unknown German soldier during the the notorious battle at the Hurtgen forest - H&#252;rtgenwald (September 1944 - January 1945), more precisely it was taken in December of 1944. Please, just follow this link:

http://www.gewehr43.com/battle3.html

Direct web-allocation of the aforesaid snapshot, however, is situated here:

http://www.gewehr43.com/badass.jpg

I am not an expert in this field, but previously mentioned resources are highly renowned worldwide.

penakalaa

01-19-2008, 08:03 PM

Hm...
i find these photos on russian sites,probably make somebody fakes
sorry
but that pictures are 100 % orginal :)

penakalaa

01-19-2008, 08:08 PM

and some more

penakalaa

01-19-2008, 08:09 PM

and...

penakalaa

01-19-2008, 08:27 PM

and...

penakalaa

01-19-2008, 08:54 PM

and..

penakalaa

01-19-2008, 09:01 PM

and...

Panzerknacker

01-23-2008, 06:11 PM

Interesting, do you know where that B-24 was shoot down?

369th

01-24-2008, 07:15 AM

This is my first tie on the Web Site and im sure u all will be interested in the

369 th Photos i will post .To the fellow asking of the origins of the Croats they arrived in todays Croatia in the Mid Late 7th Century. It is believed these were descendants of the White Croatian State That existed at the same time in todays Poland with its Capital City it ceased to exist in the 11 century with the expansion of the Polish Nation.

Before this time there are Traces of Croats in Todays Ukraine, but not likely the same people.And finally the most disputed of all the origin point where it all began In Todays Iran-Iraq as the Croatian name has been found in tablets from the Court of King Darius as a tribe ........of course this is disputed by people with far greater knowledge than myself. And most commonly mentioned people get up set saying we are not related to the Arabs...... Dont worry we are definetly not eheheheheeheh as by the Time the Arabs invaded the East the Croats had already made their way to todays Homeland in the 7th century when the Arab invasions began

Anyway enjoy the pics they are quite rare i have been told as most of the 369 th perished but few did survive wounded flown out before the Fall of Stalingrad.And the Linden leaf badge posted on the thread was made to honour the 369 th
:mrgreen:

369th

01-24-2008, 07:32 AM

Here are the Pics from the 369 th Devils Brigade as they were known

And to also confirm they were entirely a voluntary unit . Considered the best

of the Croatian Units , compared with The Black Legion made up of Croats from Bosna and Hercegovina wich was considered more famous as all the songs etc were about this division mainy cause they fought on home soil , and the Prince Eugenes division which was made up of Croatian born Germans that came from the Region of Slavonia please correct me of any errors as i didnt come here to start any politics just to share photos with u on the site

369th

01-24-2008, 07:36 AM

More pics 369 th Brigade

369th

01-24-2008, 07:39 AM

more pics

ww2admin

01-24-2008, 10:03 AM

Wonderful pictures! Thanks for sharing them. I posted the two you uploaded on the homepage.

penakalaa

01-24-2008, 11:05 AM

Interesting, do you know where that B-24 was shoot down?

The plane was downed in Croatian city off Bjelovar
"369th" great pics

skoks

03-25-2009, 05:43 PM

Croatians were originally from a place near todays Iran atleast thats wat is said in our history books at saturday skul:P
They came before christ i think..?

tomo pauk

04-05-2009, 03:40 PM

If I may add something about the early Croatian history:
There is one school that says Croats (with Serbs and other 'south Slavs') moved south from today's Poland along with Avar tribes. When the Avars retreated, Croats stood in today's Croatia and west part of Bosnia. The 1st time Croats were mentioned in Byzantynian records was in 7th century AD. The Dalmatian Croatia was independent state from 9th century, while Panonian Croatia (capital Sisak) was under rule of Francs (Charlemagne etc.).
After the Hungarian invasion in 10th century, the duke Tomislav of Dalmatian Croatia managed to defeat the Hungarians army and both Croatias together. Tomislav was crowned for a king 925 AD.

The other school says Croats are of Iranian origin, moving with Huns in 5th century AD in central Europe, and managing to form a Croatian state in 6th century in parts of today's Chech, Poland & Slovakia. After receiving a call from Byzantyne emperor, Croats moved south around 7th century. The rest of the story is similar with the previous post.

Chevan

04-10-2009, 05:02 AM

more pics

Excellent pics , thank you 369th
The photos of doomed soldiers in STalingrad, never seen Croat near soviet multi-tower T-35

Hanz Lutz

07-01-2009, 01:57 PM

Hi Croat my grandfather is been in war in croatia 1945 he has captured in voivodina by russian communists and transfered in siberia in pow camp.

2 years my grandfather been in camp agter they let him to go home he died 2002.:neutral:

Damn Russians German POW's must eat grass and rat's :evil:

Schuultz

07-04-2009, 02:51 PM

Russian POWs didn't have a better fate under the Germans - in fact it was probably worse.

But then again, Germany was in the midst of the war and low on resources - the German POWs were treated poorly even after the war.

Hanz Lutz

07-06-2009, 05:04 PM

Russian POWs didn't have a better fate under the Germans - in fact it was probably worse.

But then again, Germany was in the midst of the war and low on resources - the German POWs were treated poorly even after the war.

Agreed but my grandpa have 20 years he is mobilized after 2 years he is go agian on trial after that he is release.

He is not judged for war crimes.

Sry my english is low i apologise

Chevan

08-04-2009, 05:36 AM

Agreed but my grandpa have 20 years he is mobilized after 2 years he is go agian on trial after that he is release.

Do you know that your grandpa was endeed damn lucky , coz soviets has not passed him to Tito's hands yet in 1945, like British command has done ?
Did you heard what happend to Croatia's Ustaše colloborators in 1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_massacre)?
I think the Syberia camp could seems not a such a bad place for 20 year guy, compared to what migh be happen with him in Austria in british zone.

Evillittlekenny

01-05-2011, 02:56 PM

To come back to topic. I have once read about which tanks the NDH has received and used. Among the used tanks there were the Polish TKS, the German Pz III and Pz IV (at the eastern front), I am sure I missed some now but I can't look up right now.

Also, a single Matilda Mk. II was captured from the Soviet troops.

Now, I have once found a list with vehicles used by the NDH troops and to my big surpirse, on the list I could find the Pz. VI Tiger tank.

Now, does anyone know if this is really true? I have never seen pictures of a NDH Tiger and to be honest I doubt that the NDH ever operated one. But if you can prove me wrong in this one, I wouldn't mind it ;)