On our last flight to San Diego, there was a family with 3 kids (2 parents, 3 kids). They were split between 2 rows with a row in the middle. On the second half of the flight, the parents left their 2 kids in the same row with a lady (across from me) so that they could sit together in 1 row with 1 of their kids. I was a bit shocked and on the descent of the flight, they didn't even come to check that their kids had their seatbelts buckled (the kids were probably around 4-6 yrs old) but then the flight attendant came around and told the lady in the same row (not the mother) that the kids seat belts had to be buckled. Then the kids kicked the seats and screamed the entire descent. I was a bit shocked that the parents would leave their kids with someone else that they didn't know. I would've been pissed if it was me.

Wow. That sounds impressively irresponsible.

Once I flew from Warsaw to SF with my aunt, uncle and their 2 sons (I think we were 13, 10 and 6 at the time). Because of an airstrike and impending school, our airline managed to switch us onto a KLM flight which meant (alas!) 2 seats were instantly upgraded to business class. KLM "kindly" gave the business class seats to me and my aunt, since we were the ladies in the family, but said we could switch around throughout the flight. Even though I'm sure they would have both loved to be in business together, my aunt and uncle parked themselves in their seats (my uncle in the middle of the row, to prevent fighting) and said the three of us could switch around, so we did. Kind of. A few hours into the flight, we ended up permanently switching so that the 10 year old and 6 year old would be separated and not fight. I didn't mind hanging out with my uncle, and even thought that was a good way to handle a 12-hour long flight with 2 rowdy boys.

But I digress.

A few comments upthread someone (a childfree someone; maybe smoothie?) made it sound like they weren't comfortable commenting here anymore, and that also makes me uncomfortable. There are a lot of issues to work out & address since our decision is so much against the mainstream expectation for women, and I think we should be able to voice them. If not here, then where? The PPK is full of some of the smartest, thoughtful-st people I know, and I have really appreciated reading everyone's perspective on this choice and all the other issues it entails.

I actually have a serious question. I was arguing with someone else, somewhere else (shocking, I know) and they pulled out "you're not a parent so you can't know" as an argument stopping technique to respond to something that my friend said (she is not a parent). I find this to be personally disturbing as the issues surrounding parenting, children, education, and so forth have implications way beyond a particular family. It feels as if we've drifted far from the personal being political. Does anyone here think that they should not or cannot comment where children/parenting is concerned because they are not a parent?

Thinking that women have some sort of inherent, specialized knowledge as parents is dangerously close to biological determinism (a first wave feminist issue) and contributes to the idea that you are incomplete if you don't have children. It also means that men have less of an obligation to have children which is why his thread was framed as a women's issue.

This peas me off so much. I have no children, my brother has 5, we are close and I am very close to his children. I child minded weekly for his eldest two on a weekly basis when I was at uni. I've had relationships with men who have children. I do know, it's one of the reasons I decided having my own was probably not a good idea, I don't have the energy for it! I met a guy through online dating who admitted he was unsure about talking to me, because I had no children and perhaps wouldn't be capable of understanding how much his kids mean to him. The Mr has 3, he's surprised and delighted at how well I'm transitioning into his family and how easily his kids and I are connecting.

I know child free people who would make better parents than some of those with kids. Having kids doesn't automatically furnish people with more knowledge on the subject than those who don't. It's like we must live in a bubble, free of all things child related.

I know child free people who would make better parents than some of those with kids. Having kids doesn't automatically furnish people with more knowledge on the subject than those who don't.

Yes! This! Times a million.

I always feel bad when non parents think they shouldn't post their feedback in the playground. Please post! Just because we birthed children, doesn't mean we birthed instant all-knowing powers of them.

On our last flight to San Diego, there was a family with 3 kids (2 parents, 3 kids). They were split between 2 rows with a row in the middle. On the second half of the flight, the parents left their 2 kids in the same row with a lady (across from me) so that they could sit together in 1 row with 1 of their kids. I was a bit shocked and on the descent of the flight, they didn't even come to check that their kids had their seatbelts buckled (the kids were probably around 4-6 yrs old) but then the flight attendant came around and told the lady in the same row (not the mother) that the kids seat belts had to be buckled. Then the kids kicked the seats and screamed the entire descent. I was a bit shocked that the parents would leave their kids with someone else that they didn't know. I would've been pissed if it was me.

I think it's possible that this is a cultural difference? A friend of mine from Russia was living in the US for a while with her kids (both were under 6 at the time) and she was always saying how in Russia it was the opposite; it would have been entirely expected behavior for a parent to leave their kids where another adult could watch them, and conversely it would have been considered rude for the other adult to ignore those kids or refuse to help. Obviously I don't know if those parents were used to a culture like that or were just being rude, but, still, maybe it's a possibility?

_________________Man, fork the gender card, imma come at you with the whole damned gender deck. - Olives Did you ever think that, like, YOU are a sexy costume FOR a diva cup? - solipsistnationblog!FB!

I know child free people who would make better parents than some of those with kids. Having kids doesn't automatically furnish people with more knowledge on the subject than those who don't.

Yes! This! Times a million.

I always feel bad when non parents think they shouldn't post their feedback in the playground. Please post! Just because we birthed children, doesn't mean we birthed instant all-knowing powers of them.

I think the whole "you don't have kids..." thing is probably more of a reflection on the lack of understanding the person saying had before they had their own.

Regarding the whole men vs women maternal instinct thing. I was pretty ticked at the nurses when my baby niece was in hospital. She was seriously ill (recovering well now thankfully!) and part of her care involved daily enemas, the nurses made such a fuss to me about how my brother took everything in his stride and was so (shock horror!) involved in the (shock horror!) care of his daughter. My SIL was timid with the procedures, for fear of hurting the wee woman, but I got the distinct impression they were more impressed with a man putting such effort into caring for their child (turns out he was doing a better job than the staff, they were a disgrace). They kept going on about how "capable" he was. Yeah, he's been a father for 19 years, I should forking hope he's capable by now!

1. I do not feel threatened by parents posting here, but i'm done knowingly being out-of-context bashing fodder and I know i'm not the only one. 2. This thread is kind of pointless now since it's devolved into 'who is the most offended', but it's not getting closed.

_________________"The Tree is His Penis"

The tree is his penis // it's very exciting // when held up to his mouth // the lights are all lighting // his eyes start a-bulging // in unbridled glee // the tree is his penis // its beauty, effulgent -amandabear

lepelaar, that makes me so furious! I wish you and others would comment when you see something that catches you attention. Perhaps part of the frustration being expressed here is the fact that while you feel as if you would be attacked or shut down if you commented on parenting/child threads the reverse is certainly not true. People who are not women without children felt comfortable tossing their opinions on the subject with abandon.

To be fair, my feeling this way is more an issue IRL. I've never even felt the urge to comment on any of the threads in the Playground (except once to comment on the how much a little girl in a picture looked like Leela). To be honest, I hardly ever wander in there (or the Garden or the Workshop) unless I've run out of things to read but not out of time to procrastinate.

For me, it's watching some of how my sister treats my nephew, and just cringing at the disfunction and knowing that if I say anything about it, I'll be told to mind my own business because I couldn't possibly understand. Or wanting to tell people who let their kids run screaming around the bookstore where I work that 1) it's disturbing both the employees and other customers, and 2) that it's dangerous (our store is fraught with ways for people of all ages to get hurt), and being afraid to say anything because it's just not done to ask people to discipline their own child. (On the few occasions when I have done this, because, to take one example, an unattended toddler was getting dangerously close to slipping through the gaps between the stairs, I've gotten angry responses.)

_________________Ain't no guarantees in life, and nothing that comes out of my vagina can change that. - Erika Soyf*cker

I'd like to point out that just because someone is CF doesn't mean that they are living a carefree life with zero responsibilities for another human being. Or that they're trying to live permanently in their 20s.

I feel like this thread has created a classism of parents versus non-parents. I've never in my life felt like a minority, or an outsider, but this thread certainly is making me feel that way. Being CF is not a BFD.

I feel like this thread has created a classism of parents versus non-parents. I've never in my life felt like a minority, or an outsider, but this thread certainly is making me feel that way. Being CF is not a BFD.

This makes me unbelievably sad. We have attempted to have many voluntarily child-free threads in the past, and they inevitably get locked or wither in the annals of history because it ends up being an arms race over who is more offended. I would really like for the PPK to have a space where we can discuss being voluntarily child-free without anyone on either side of the having-or-not-having-kids debate feeling attacked or defensive.

I had a "I"m a lady with no-kids" moment this weekend. Two friends of mine came over and we baked cookies together and watched a movie. After the movie we hung out and talked about the movie and life and stuff. It was really awesome and felt really great to have some friend time.

the next day, I got to thinking about how long it has been since I did that... and I realized that every single one of my other friends (from all various parts of my life) has young children and isn't generally free for a long night-time hangout. I realized these two gals are probably my only local friends without kids. And it was pretty neat to realize that I have some buddies who can spontaneously come over and hang out with me. I hope we do it again.

I was wondering if having a "Child Free Pet Peeves" thread would work like the vegan pet peeves thread or would turn into an offended-fest?

Also, I would dearly like to have this thread or a couple threads with a variety of topics (ie, pet peeves, sharing joys of being childfree, how to handle family/friends who are criticizing/etc). Wondering if because everything is in this catch all thread, it's not as easy for people who might take issue with something being said when in fact it's just someone venting in general to realize it's just a vent (does that make sense)?

Anyways, I would love to hear about how people handle parents who are surprised about children not wanting children? I mean, they're not mad or anything, but I feel like I'm probably going to have to have a deeper conversation at some point possibly and I'd love the tools to handle it.

_________________"Vegan to me means Oreos for breakfast." -Poopiebitch"tl;dr: I quit working to drink beer paid for with gift cards" erikasoyf*cker

I love the idea of multiple threads, lilianp. I'm just not sure where to put them -- not that it's "my" decision, just, where makes sense?. Obviously not the Playground! Ha! But I feel like putting them in the Forum would mean that they would quickly disappear beneath everything else that happens t/here. And stickynoting them feels like giving them unnecessary prominence? Not sure.

I love the idea of multiple threads, lilianp. I'm just not sure where to put them -- not that it's "my" decision, just, where makes sense?. Obviously not the Playground! Ha! But I feel like putting them in the Forum would mean that they would quickly disappear beneath everything else that happens t/here. And stickynoting them feels like giving them unnecessary prominence? Not sure.

Maybe in The Spa, since child-bearin' and rearin' is sort of a health-related decision (as well as a down-home jug band, apparently, according to my random mood today).

lillianp wrote:

Anyways, I would love to hear about how people handle parents who are surprised about children not wanting children? I mean, they're not mad or anything, but I feel like I'm probably going to have to have a deeper conversation at some point possibly and I'd love the tools to handle it.

Apparently my dad was caught unawares by my decision to get sterilized. My mom said he became very upset and insisted that he would have talked to me/possibly tried to change my mind had he known beforehand. My mom, bless her, said "it's not your decision to make." Of course none of this he said to me, which means my mom may have been twisting things out of proportion...

I love the idea of multiple threads, lilianp. I'm just not sure where to put them -- not that it's "my" decision, just, where makes sense?. Obviously not the Playground! Ha! But I feel like putting them in the Forum would mean that they would quickly disappear beneath everything else that happens t/here. And stickynoting them feels like giving them unnecessary prominence? Not sure.

Maybe in The Spa, since child-bearin' and rearin' is sort of a health-related decision (as well as a down-home jug band, apparently, according to my random mood today).

Erika Soyf*cker's Down Home Child Free Good Time Fun Band! I would buy that album.

quote on my Facebook page, in response to a friend's cute photo of himself with his newborn and toddler: " I see room for one more rascal on your lap. dad"response from friend: "I'm game if someone else foots their college bill... :-0"next response: "You gotta have at least 3 kids...so hopefully... at least one of them takes care of you when you are old and simply minded. dad"No way in hell could I respond on a thread like this to suggest that maybe two is enough :)The whole dynamic that people are born to take care of the old farts is maddening to me. Whether it's on a personal level or whether we consider population growth necessary to support Social Security (or other funds in socialized nations).

Anyways, I would love to hear about how people handle parents who are surprised about children not wanting children? I mean, they're not mad or anything, but I feel like I'm probably going to have to have a deeper conversation at some point possibly and I'd love the tools to handle it.

My parents are A-Okay. My boyfriend's mom said "not having children is okay unless you are not for environmental reasons, because that is stupid"...I am glad she had my boyfriend and his siblings but she should have never been a mother. Right now she has her 19 year old working two jobs while she is at home watching DR. Oz.

i'm pretty sure my parents are a-okay with it. (i'm their 4th kid, and my siblings have 6 bio-kids between them, so i don't think it's an issue.) my 'rents-in-law, i'm not so sure about. my husband has a younger brother, and they seem like they're probably going to have kids, so i hope we'll be let off the hook.

Anyways, I would love to hear about how people handle parents who are surprised about children not wanting children? I mean, they're not mad or anything, but I feel like I'm probably going to have to have a deeper conversation at some point possibly and I'd love the tools to handle it.

My in-laws never expected us to have kids and when I joked about being pregnant with them, my mother in law said something like 'you wouldn't do that'.

My mom on the other hand acts like I have disappointed her by not giving her grandkids. At our wedding, my mom, my stepdad and my father all mentioned us having kids. I just smiled and said nothing. I think my mom got the hint though when we adopted 1 cat, then adopted 1 dog, then adopted another cat and then adopted another dog.

_________________You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.

i'm pretty sure my parents are a-okay with it. (i'm their 4th kid, and my siblings have 6 bio-kids between them, so i don't think it's an issue.) my 'rents-in-law, i'm not so sure about. my husband has a younger brother, and they seem like they're probably going to have kids, so i hope we'll be let off the hook.

Haha, its the in-law I"m worried about! My mom wanted me to be a nun so its not a big deal to her, plus I have siblings, but my boyfriend only has a much younger sister who's ten. Meanwhile his mom goes on about how she still has some of his nice baby clothes and she's waiting for him to get me pregnant so she can give me all this stuff.

_________________I was really surprised the first time I saw a penis. After those banana tutorials, I was expecting something so different. -Tofulish