So what are your views? Israel have now come out and said they were provocated by activists who were smuggling weapons (guns ets) and had to react.

Although earlier they said the "activists" had metal bars and maybe knives etc, and the videos of the raid don't seem to show any activists using any guns which they were allegedly smuggling (as you would if you were being attacked by armed commandos)

my opinion is that Israel screwed up on this one and it will be interesting to see what reaction they get from the US on this.

yeah, the problem we'll face is that there will be 3 stories coming out. The whitewashed pro Israel, the anti Israel and then bits of the truth here and there.

The Israel POM spokesman just said that they believed that violent activists were aboard, but they did not expect any retaliation when they illegally(according to international law) boarded the vessel.

and that the commandos were attacked with deadly violence, though the video's show that the only people who had Guns were the commandos.

The only nation it appears, that dares to take on varoius rogue Arab states and Muslim nut cases in the region head on. One day, when Israel nukes Iran before Iran nukes the rest of us, we'll be thankful to them for once, rather than toe the usual Free Palestine bullsh*te.

As for this incident, it appears that Israel warned that ship of it's intentions beforehand. So tough on them.

check out this article strangely i was reading it last night gobsmacked that a section of israeli society have the nerve to smear anyone who disagrees with them as "delegitimatisers", and before anyone starts a rant most of the articles that i read about israel in counterpunch are written by israelis or jewish people. for further information have a read of anything by norman finkelstein another delegitimatiser.

Because of its history since its formation,Israel has always acted/reacted aggressively to any threat or attack regardless of the size of that threat.If you were a country surrounded by other countries who would like to see you destroyed,I think you're tactics would be the same.
Israel would have ceased to exist without the U.S.A'S help,the message is "hurt us,and we'll hurt you back".As usual,there is right and wrong on both sides.

The Israeli arrogance and total disregard for innocent civilian life is akin to the nazis. Their attacks on Gaza and denial of basic humanitarian aid is exactly the same as the Nazi concentration of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto.

I can't believe that Isreal continues to pursue these heavy handed tactics. I have alot of sympathy for Isreal but actions like this just makes them look very hostile. They could quite easily take the moral high ground and gain substantial international support in the face of Terror attacks from palistinian terrorists, but they choose instead to use a sledghammer to crack a nut.

Israeli operates apartheid on its buses, its roads, its urban districts. It steals palestinian land,it terrorises innocent civilians, murders objecters to its illegal occupation and imprisonment of innocent people.They turf people, going about their daily business, off buses at gunpoint. They deny civilians access to their farma and access to areas in all the big cities. Children and women with medical need are regularly held up at checkpoints and moving road - blocks by armed soldiers in tanks and armoured humvies. Its nothing to do with anti-semitism or hate. Its a fact.

The incident brings this to mind (see link).
How does the Isreali treatment of Palestinians compare with the British treatment of Israelis? This account is from a Israeli/Jewish point of view and doesn't describe the level of violence the unarmed British boarding parties faced but even from this you can see it was a 'kid gloves' approach.

Oh right so your say so... Sorry but that hardly an argument. In fact I'd say it weakens your position.

As does this...

"any chance the pro pallistine/terrorist supporting lefties get a opportunity to be anti semitic, they fall over themselves to spout their bile and hatred of Jews."

I've not spouted bile and hatred of Jews. There's a considerable minority opposition to this kind of thing in Israel. Are Jewish Israeli's who disagree with the blockade and the killing of civilians anti-semetic?

If you don't even know what anti-semitism is you don't really have a place discussing it with anyone.

I know you don't like it Tommy, but try the thought experiment of it was an Arab state doing this to a Jewish state, would the world respond the same?

The biggest impediment to Israeli reform, I'm afraid to say, is the United States. As long as the political establishment is prepared to give them cover here, which they slavishly do, then Israel can do what it likes.

If the US withheld aid until there was a true two-state solution to Israel/Palestine (which is the only logical and workable conclusion) then the Palestinians would have their own state by this time next week.

We invaded Iraq on the pretext that it was doing what Israel does on a monthly basis - subjugating an ethnic minority, developing illegal weapons, threatening neighbours etc.

I like Israel and believe it should be supported but at the same time, it should also be read the riot act when it constantly flouts every moral and legal stricture without impediment or threat of reprimand.

Maz, like you I'm for Israel having a place of its own where it can live in peace, but the Palistinians should be able to as well, but without them being a threat to Israel. I can't help thinking that Israel will always see the Palistinians as a threat and act accordingly.

I think the shooting of civilians doesn`t help any country.
Infact the opposite, it helps unite people who want to avenge a wrong doing.
Compassion and humanity are words the Jewish nation have forgot. It`s so sad.

Been out all day and wondered if during any thread on this incident on here would include some daft XXXXXX calling Isreal Nazis.

Waves hand at roofie.

From what I've caught up on it I think the commandos screwed up by not going in hard enough as they thought they were dealing with western European peacniks. Bit of a suprise then to find hardline Islamist Turks waiting for them with knives as they rapelled down from the helicopters.

This "peace" convoy was anything but as have been the previous travelling circuses. The "aid" is always destined for Hamas warehouses for them to distibute at a price to their supporters to the exclusion of all others in that region.

Previous "peace" convoys have been predominantly western European enterprises made up of Hamas supporting Islamists accompanied by usefull idiots of various hues from chancers like Galloway and nutjobs like ridley and booth.
No need for weapons as they have either gone in via Egypt or taken the pr route on the previous ships.

This time I don't think the Isrealis would have needed to use weapons if the first commando to hit the deck hadn't been stabbed. Isreal hasn't needed weapons before in these incidents, it clearly needed them this time

Since Judaism pre-dates both Christianity and Islam by quite a substantial number of years, since people of the Jewish faith have lived almost continually in the middle east far longer than any other race, and since an internationally recognised nation state of Palestine has NEVER in human history existed, errr, just WHO then exactly has Israeli Jews stole land from??

The entire Middle East issue therefore, revolves around the usual mix of Arab crocodile tears and trendy Liberal hatread towards an advanced democratic state which has it's roots in ancient times, that continuously faces daily aggression from extremists yet is expected to somehow put up with it and not retaliate!!

Of course they are going to be some Jews who are more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause than others!! They're individuals, aren't they?! What a silly arguement. Some Brits supported Hitler too once. It didn't make them right either. Night night.

guisborough town red before you scamper off to bed here is some more educative reading for you, go on read it if you dare, i can send you lots more criticisms from good jewish folk who have the balls to stand up and say that the state of israel is going seriously wrong. seriously mate keep in contact i have a large reading list that could educate you.

The whole situation shows how tothless the UN is and how its almost entirely dependent on the US. Give it 15-20 years when China and India can start flexing their muscles and then we may get some progress.

Both sides need to shift. Israel needs to relise that bombing the sh!te out of people doesn't work and for every terrorist they kill another 2 take their place. The Palistinians need to drop this rediculess policy of pursuing 'the right of return'. Its been the major stumbling block for all peace negotiations. If the Palistinians are serious about peace then they need to drop this 1st, without dropping it there's no point in even starting to talk. Also the yanks need to stop blindly supporting Israel and back the UN in enforceing resolutions. They can easily make them comply.

Its actually a good test to see if Obama is in control or if he has a hand up his @rse like previous puppet.

In response to a few on here, I have not called the Israelis "nazis", but their tactics of sealing 1.5 million peole in Gaza, preventing basic supplies of medicines and food, starving the population of fresh drinking water and sanitation is "akin" to what the nazis did in the Warsaw ghetto. Thats a fact.

Well done New Order, you forgot to mention the fact that all of those critics all support a 2 state settlement. You also forgot to mention that they also do a lot of good work promoting this solution in the democratic process that exists in Israel that allows for peaceful handovers of power after elections have taken place

Now let's look at hezb and Hamas. All of their critics from within tend to end up dead. There view of a solution is to drive the Jews into the sea or hunt them down wherever they can find them anywhere in the world from Argentina to India, and there solution to a power change was to slaughter out of existense Fatah in Gaza.

Since "semitic" refers to a group of languages (of which Hebrew is one of many) and the semitic religions are Judaism, Christianity and Islam, why is anything "anti-Israel" immediately called anti-semitism but when Israel attack anything Islamic it isn't?

Anyroad, it's a load of religious Bullsh!t in my opinion. Thank fcuk for religion though, if the millions and millions of people killed in its name throughout history hadn't been, can you imagine the global warming problem we'd have now???

Never mind that, some Jews supported Hitler (admittedly they may not have known about the camps).

They wanted him to remove the Brits from Palestine.

What we see here is the Israelis unable to control their own troops. I assume beause of their ridiculous anti-Palestinian propaganda whipping up people into a frenzy of hate.

And I note the Israeli PR apologists are out in force trying to spin this event as Israelis under attack. It's laughable really though they'd be terribly convincing if it hadn't happened 100 times before.

Israel has no intention of finding peace with Palestine, nor has it ever had that intention.

Any more than Hamas has any intention of finding peace with Israel.

Unfortunately for Israel demographics and the world wide growth of Islam will ensure that in the end, Israel as a state will cease to exist.

It could be 20 years or more, but eventually they'll be handing over land like there's no tomorrow but it won't be enough to save them. It is after all, how they created their state in the first place.

May I humbly suggest you read a book called Freedom Next Time by John Pilger, which has a balanced view on the Israel/Palestine problem as seen in the eyes of Israelis/Zionists, Israelis who disagree with Israel's policy on Palestine (who interestingly enough are called anti-semites too) and Palestinians who disagree with the suicide bombings and the terrorist campaigns conducted by Palestinians.

Some real statistics in there about deaths, bombings, UN Security Council Resolutions etc. It would help some on here to get past the tabloid crap they normally spout.

Won't take you long to read the section either and then you can join in the debate with at least a little bit of real knowledge.

Interesting that the Israel/Palestine debate on the board plays out roughly along the lines the general election did a few weeks ago. And that the views of the 'right', i.e., pro Israel, are expressed in similarly cartoonish fashion as the pro Conservative/anti Labour were recently.

Israel are right to have done it like most of the weapons in gaza have came in on boats such as the one attacked.. and i dont see why the UN aid ships arent taking stuff in because it would be legit no-weapons and wouldnt provoke the raids on the boats going into gaza. Another thing is the activists were attacking the commandos before they had even landed on the ship.

I don't think you can form an opinion on this based on left or right. Its far too complex for that. I think what Israel does is way over the top and wins them no friends (not that it bothers them, the only friend they need is the US) but i can see why they do it. On the other hand what the Palistinians do is way out of line and will only ever inflame their already dire situation, but i can see why they do.

Its one those 'who flinch's 1st' situations and neither side is prepared to back down. Overall i do tend to lean on the side of Israel because at the end of the day they are fighting for their very existence.

That was a shockingly poorly planned and executed operation. Very crass, unnecessary and over the top. It is worrying that Israel seems to favor the military option whenever there is a problem but their forces seem to be getting poorer in terms of leadership and troops. A massacare waiting to happen.

"The Israeli propaganda machine has reached new highs its hopeless frenzy. It has distributed menus from Gaza restaurants, along with false information. It embarrassed itself by entering a futile public relations battle, which it might have been better off never starting. They want to maintain the ineffective, illegal and unethical siege on Gaza and not let the "peace flotilla" dock off the Gaza coast? There is nothing to explain, certainly not to a world that will never buy the web of explanations, lies and tactics".

What stands out to me about this is that there was 500 people on board that ship! Why was there 500 people? and why did many of them start to attck Israeli soldiers the minute they landed? It seems to me the deaths were self sacrifice, martyrdom as a way of making the Israelis look bad. The people on those ships new that if they backed the soldiers into a corner they'd bite. Israel fell for it hook line and sinker. They couldn't have done any worse than they did. Ploughing in headfirst as usual, the 'flotilla' people knew the IDF would use a sledghammer to crack nut (as they always do) and they planned accordingly. The Israelis have no one to blame but themselves. If occaisionally they took a step backwards they may get the odd thing right.

Some people need to get a grip here and stop being so blind as to the REAL issues behind whats recently happened.

Israel is quite rightly doing all they can to prevent arms from enterning Gaza and Hamas/Hesbollah militants because these evil b*stards are trying to kill as many innocent people as they can in a fully recognised soveriegn nation state. Just WHAT exactly can Israel do? Just what exaclty would any other nation do? Where do you draw the line between relevant defensive action and dis-proportunate force??

Yes, aid is needed for Gaza, but at the same time Israel has every right to ensure that it IS aid and nothing else that is being delivered. Hence their strict controls over it, and why Israel also TOLD these rabbel rousers and troublemakers not to come. They warned that they would prevent the ship from arriving, these err "aid workers" didn't listen, and so now you have the situation where we are today.

As usual, Israel will look the nasty bullying bad guys in all this. Once more, the real picture of the Israeli peoples surrounded by muderous militants and constantly living in fear of attack is hidden among the usual Palestine propagada b*llocks.

Some people need to get a grip here and stop being so blind as to the REAL issues behind whats recently happened.

Israel is quite rightly doing all they can to prevent arms from entering Gaza and Hamas/Hesbollah militants because these evil b*stards are trying to kill as many innocent people as they can in a fully recognised soveriegn nation state. Just WHAT exactly can Israel do? Just what exaclty would any other nation do? Where do you draw the line between relevant defensive action and dis-proportunate force??

Yes, aid is needed for Gaza, but at the same time Israel has every right to ensure that it IS aid and nothing else that is being delivered. Hence their strict controls over it, and why Israel also TOLD these rabbel rousers and troublemakers not to come. They warned that they would prevent the ship from arriving, these err "aid workers" didn't listen, and so now you have the situation where we are today.

As usual, Israel will look the nasty bullying bad guys in all this. Once more, the real picture of the Israeli peoples surrounded by muderous militants and constantly living in fear of attack is hidden among the usual Palestine propagada b*llocks.

so it's ok for a country to board a vessel in International waters without warrant or evidence?

Israel only announced that the vessels were carrying weapons after the incident had happened.

this incident did not happen in Israel controlled waters.

They had no legal right to board the vessels and there was no evidence to say they were carrying weapons. Israel want to control how much aid gets through, they deliberately control the flow so that only a quarter of the aid required gets through.

What they are doing to Gaza is akin to what the Nazis did to the jews in the warsaw ghetto. (Repeat). It is not calling Israelis "Nazis", but what they are doing is using a "Nazi tactic" to subjegate an entire population to collective punishment, starvation and genocide. What they are doing is systematic and deliberate. Israels policy is to anihilate the Palestinian people.

Roofie, you continue to make an utter XXXXXX of yourself with your analogy between Israel and the Nazis.

The only direct comparison that can be made in the current situation is between the Islamists and the Nazis. Repetition of the blood libel, utter belief that the protocols were true, one lot actually carried out the holocaust and the other lot denied it happened, plus the direct link between the Grand mufti and the founders of the MB and the Nazis in ww2.

I spent an afternoon at Auschwitz-Birkenau last Thursday where the Nazis exterminated an estimated 1.2 million people a large majority of which were Jews.

People should really go to such places and see and feel for themselves what happened in our recent history before branding people or their actions.Especialy trying to score points on a footy message board

Thw imprisonment of a captive population is a nazi tactic (Repeat). Im not the one looking at the mirror. Im looking over the parapet. Read your history........or better still look at another news source:

international middle east media network.

palestinian news network.

stop the war coalition.

international solidarity movement.

medical aid for palestinians.

tent of nations.

Google any of those and do us all a favour, go online and purchase a copy of one of the following:

I was pretty sure the Nazis booted the jews out of Germany then set about invading Poland and the rest of Europe.This then left them with the problem of more jews they had adopted for themselves.This in turn led to Ghetto"s in Warsaw etc.Jews were robbed,persecuted,sent to work camps etc.Some bad gadge called Heinrich Himmler then decided it would be easier to send the S.S killing squads in to shoot thousands of the nuisance jews after having them removed from the Ghetto"s.Did i mention homosexuals,disabled,ugly people and their political enemies!

When his S.S commandos admitted their men were getting sick of shooting the Jews and had lost the stomach for it,Himmler decided upon the final solution with the help of Eichmann i think i.e extermination camps to either starve,beat,work or gas them to death.

Now the Israelis might be brutal and stubborn but i dont think they are really acting like Nazis,just my view on history like.

Roofie you continue to make an arse of yourself by continuing to equate Israels actions on gaza with those of the Nazis

Did the Nazis unilaterally leave the Warsaw ghetto?

Did the Nazis on leaving the Warsaw ghetto leave another country on one side of that ghettos Borders?

Did the Jews in the warsaw ghetto undertake a vicious politico ethnic cleansing of oppononents leaving only those who believe in driving the Nazis into the sea in charge.?

Did the Nazis allow the red cross or any 21st century equivilent NGO to operate within the Warsaw ghetto?

When completely surrounding the Warsaw ghetto did the Nazis continue to allow through their own checkpoints humanitarian aid of any kind?

As part of an equivilent 2 geography democratic system did the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto have a choice of being good neighbours to a 2 state solution process or were they actually fighting an apparatus that systematically had already annhilated millions of their fellows in gas chambers knowing they would be next on the list.

Roofie your Reading material is quite basic. Your recommending the we are all Hezbollah stoppers is particularly revealing, now XXXXXX off back to your student revolutionary trot sloganeering and have a word with yourself.

Should Israel show any kind of weakness, it becomes a green light for Hezbollah, Hamas and Syria....all sponsored by Iran.

I do not agree that killings were necessary in this case, but...you know what happens if you XXXXXX with Israel. Ie, these people on these boats knew exactly what the response would be if they became aggressive...Which they did.

As expected: the usual bile of insults from an apologist for Israeli murder.

The Israelis have (in the last month) put in place a law that all foreign nationals wishing to visit the West Bank must obtain "Military permission". Palestinians and internationals do not have freedom of movement in Israel. Palestinians are restricted to which roads they can travel. Palestinian number plates are easily identifiable.Roads, for example, like Nablus to Bethlehem are built our of stones and earth, whilst their own are well - metaled and paid for by U.S aid. Palestinians are only allowed to travel in "zonal areas". If their birthplace is not in a permitted zone, they cannot travel. My friend Daouad Nassar was born in Jerusalem and lives just south of Bethlahem. He is not allowed to visit any of his family in Jerusalem. His farm is 17km south of Jerusalem.

His farm is known as the Tent of Nations, inviting peace loving people of all faiths from all over the world. Google the website.Daoud and his family are practicing christians through generations.The Israelis have said they are going to demolish the farm (of almond trees, vines and fig trees)within 5 days.The farm has been in the hands of the family for 117 years and was confirmed as their land by the British Mandate of 1948. The Israelis have tried on several occassions to steal the land to build properties for the zionist squatters (so called "settlers").

Compare this to the restriction of movement on the jews in Germany and Poland, the stealing of their businesses and property by German soldiers and brown shirts,the constant harrassment and torture of the jews and we have a similar picture of what is happening to ordinary Palestinians and internationals today.

Apartheid is alive and well in Israel. Thousands of innocent Palestinians and internationals lie in Israeli jails, held without trial. Israeli armoured vehicles including tanks, daily plough across farmland and demolish ordinary peoples homes and destroy livelyhoods. The building of the concrete wall continues to divide farmers from their land and incarcerate whole towns, behand razor wire. Soldiers sit high up in gun towers, regularly and indescriminately firing live rounds and cs gas cannisters into civilian districts.These actions are planned and orchestrated to destroy the will and determination of ordinary Palestinians, to carry on life in their own country.

Mark Regev, who you can view on youtube represents the "official" face of Zionism. He is the Israeli propaganda mouthpiece.The apologist for genocide.Go take a look.

As for reading lists being "basic", Im glad that the author of that remark has obviously read those texts. Ilan Pappe is a Jewish scholar and anti - zionist campaigner. Robert Fisk is a renowned international journalist.The other text is written by a farmer and his experiences at the end of the israeli soldiers M16.

I fear for the future for the internationals, the jewish anti - zionists, christian peace teams and people of many faiths, who continue to face oppression, torture and imprisonment by the Israelis.

On a football note: The Palestinian National stadium was being built in Hebron. The Israelis wont allow the Palestinian National Side to play international football.

rOOFIE what do you think about the issue of 'right of return'? Do you agree that its a fundemental issue that the Palistinians must drop before any progress can be made. Not much is made of it outside Palistine but its almost universally supported by Palistinians and almost universally opposed by Israelis. Personally i think its an impossible demand, not just politically but logistically. Its estimated the refugee's decendents of 1948 and 1967 now number over 4 million and to give them the right to return would be impossible. Also alot of them refugees sold their land to Jews, so for their decendents to now demand it back is insane.

The number of refugees world wide is indeed in its millions. Its not a question of geography though. If you look at Gazza, we have the most densley populated area on the planet, with 1.5 million people.It represents a tiny area of the country. In 1948 the Palestinians welcomed the jewish refugees from all over Europe. This is well documented. The British and the Americans were well aware that zionism intended to capture all Palestinian land. They began as early as 1948 when the British Mandate was signed. Underneath the newly built dual carriageway between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem lay the villages and thousands of dead Palestinians, murdered by the zionists.This was not last week or last year, but began in 1948.Under the placard of "return to the holy land","Israel for the Jews" and "coming home", zionists battalions slashed and burned villages, slaughtering innocent women and children.It is clear that this was a long term plan and the ultimate goal is to rid Palestinians of their homeland.

Palestine is large enough to support its own people, including the refugees, who have a right to return to their birthplace. My friend and his family cannot move back 17km to their birthplace, Jerusalem, because the Israelis will arrest and imprison them, even if they want to travel there. This is today, not ten years ago.

Palestinians represent many faiths including muslims, christians and jews. Many Jews despise the Zionists and their apartheid regime, in the country. The Israeli occupation is supported by guns, tanks, nuclear warheads and bullets from the west. If american "aid" was cut today, the Israeli economy would collapse. Israel survives on trading agreements with the E.U. The majority of the land is desert, with arable farmland in the north, near the Lebanese border. The Palestinians used to support their families on the thousands of farms, selling produce in local markets, like Bethlahem and Jerusalem.Silk from the east, meets spices and home grown delicacies.

The historic capital, Jerusalem, is surrounded by Israeli checkpoints and watch towers and the 30ft high concrete wall. Inside the old City Walls, checkpoints like the turnstiles in the holgate end at Ayresome park, are used to prevent entrance to places like the Dome on The Rock. In most places the turnstiles are opened and closed at the will of armed Israeli soldiers.The majority of the soldiers are the same age as first year university students. They are conscripted and face jgaol if the object. They arent allowed to talk to Palestinians. In the Old City, they point M16s in the faces of women and children. Its a credit to the internationals and the Palestinians that they are no longer afraid of these oppressors. They are a very resillient people with 60 years experience of this treatment.In parts of Jerusalem where the Israelis have forced Palestinians out of their homes , demolished them and built their own "settlements", the Israelis throw dirty nappies, rubbish and bleach down below, into the arab Market. In Hebron, this has meant the Palestinians putting up a wire mesh to protect themselves.There are lots of examples of things we wouldnt believe happens every day. Imagine MTeesside surrounded by a 30ft high concrete wall with oneentrance controlled by armed soldiers, through a checkpoint wide enough to take two cars. Imagine too, that either side, soldiers forced passengers out of vehicles at gun point and held them for hours, if not days. The river Tees would be occupied by gunboats with their turrets facing the town, loaded and ready to fire. Backed up by an airforce supplied by the west, with weapons of mass destruction, including phosphorous and cluster bombs (which explode mid air and send tiny fragments of razor - like metal flying in all directions). You have an idea in microcosm of what its like in Gaza and other areas in Palestine.

Here are two websites. One Jewish and one Christian, you may wish to look at:

The number of refugees world wide is indeed in its millions. Its not a question of geography though. If you look at Gazza, we have the most densley populated area on the planet, with 1.5 million people

Is it?

and you can put together as many intellectual studies together as you want, but putting the jewish people and nazi's under the same umbrella is simply wrong.

"Nazi tactic" (Repeat) Judaism and Zionism are two different things, like being a Christian and being a racist are not synonymous.

There are no "intellectual studies" in my contributions, only history and facts. The present situation is not based in what happened last week, or last year, but over 60 years ago. If we ignore the lessons of history we do so at our peril. The descriptions of the Wall, the turnstiles,checkpoints,etc are happening now. Theres no "intellectual"(ising) there. At least we can now have a considered rapport and develope an understanding, behind the headlines and propaganda.

"In 1948 the Palestinians welcomed the jewish refugees from all over Europe"

rOOFIE i know you're pro Palistinian but come on. They welcomed the money the Jews brought with them and accepted with open arms the money the Jews paid for their land. But don't forget it was the Arab nations that rejected the UN proposed partition of Palistine in 1948. Then it was the Arab nations that attacked Israel forcing it to defend itself. The refugee's that resulted from the conflict were a direct result of the Arab attacks, as was the collapse of the Palistian economy.

What happened in the past is gone. What the sides have to do is find a solution to the problem now. The starting point is 'right of return'. Right of return is un-workable. It would destroy Israel so they'll never agree to it. Why would they, it would put them in a worse position than they're in now. It would probably bring down the economy and the millions of people eligible for it would try their hardest to bring the entire nation down with it. It would be the end of Israel so they will never agree to it. While the Palistians obstanately demand it there will never be peace, but thats not what they want, is it?

The Palestinians did welcome Jewish refugees from all over Europe. Many refugees had been disposessed of any wealth and arrived with only the clothes they stood in. I remmeber well the Israeli attack on the golan Heights and the 67 War, when Israeli jet fighters smashed their way to a military strategic area of Palestine. 60 years is not a "long time". We have to understand yesterday in order to plan today how we act tomorrow. Let us not forget the British involvement in drawing lines in the sand in the Middle East. We all do well to better our understanding of the present , by understanding the past. we commemorate the dead of two World Wars on November the 11th every year. Why do we do that, if history is junk? Should we forget World War II, Suez, Vietnam,Korea,Kosovo,Afghanistan,Iraq?

My dad was conscripted to war in Korea (at 17 years old) as a medic, picking up the arms and legs of dead women and children. The British and Americans left Korea a divided land, millions dead, and my father returned a changed man. Many came back in boxes draped with a flag.

We cannot ignore the Israeli occupation and its consequencies for world peace. This is not about a few Palestinians. As we have seen, with the unprovoked attack on a peaceful flotilla carrying 10,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid to Gazza, and the murder of innocent civilians in cold blood. The reaction in the rest of the world and revulsion by millions to the Israeli attricity, will not be forgotten. I dont dislike Israelis. I dislike the Zionists and those who support the apartheid and genocide in Palestine. If that includes supporters of Israeli flouting of international law and respect for basic human rights and life, so be it.

"We all do well to better our understanding of the present , by understanding the past."

Yes we should not forget the past. We should not forget that it was the Muslim army that invaded Israel in the 7th centuary and persecuted non Muslims for hundreds of years by a raft of draconium measures aimed at forcing converstion or migration. The Jews of Palistine have been continually persecuted for millenia by both Christians, Muslims and empires such as the Greeks and Persians. This is something we should not forget.

My point is that both sides should try to put the past behind them or there is no hope for the future. You still haven't addressed my point about 'right of return'. Do you not believe the Palistinians should drop it as with it in place there will never be peace, there will never be a two state solution and thats what you want isn't it?

Give me a break. Israel doesn't want a two state solution any more than the Palestinians.

They want rid of the Palestinians. The two state solution is PR for their backers.

While there are some Israelis that look for peaceful coexistence, there are many more who are quite happy at the 10 for 1 kill rate by Israel. You just have to listen to them when their guard is down.

Israel is more powerful than the Palestinians at the moment, and that's what counts. As it always has done, and probably always will.

And what about the wonderful "democracy" argument they trot out. Millions of potential voters are effectively disenfranchised in what amounts to a prison.

When the Palestinian lobby in the US is more powerful than the Jewish lobby (which will happen within 20 years), then perhaps things will change but not before.

Why is historical persecution of Jews relevant to this discussion?

Should you be held accountable for the actions of your great great great grandfather?

It's a load of bullXXXXXX PR disseminated by a rather nasty state to cover its evil apartheid regime.

Power is what counts.

The Palestinians are too corrupt and evidently stupid to deal with Israel, and for the short term at least everything will stay just as it is, with Israel using a process of attrition to try and dilute the Palestinian position, while using every possible opportunity to take more land.

Don't try and defend Israel, they're morally indefensible. And frankly I'm surprised anyone cares. This crap has being going on for decades.

"Give me a break. Israel doesn't want a two state solution any more than the Palestinians."

You're probably right but while the Palistinians hold on to the 'right of return' the Israelis will always point to that and say 'look they don't want peace, its not us'. What i'm saying is that the right of return is completely un-workable and while the Palistinians demand it their position is fatally flawed. If the Palistinians turned round and said 'look we want peace, we want a two state solution and we want to live next to the state of Israel in harmony, and to prove this we are dropping the policy of right of return', then they'd hold the moral position. Then Israel couldn't say they were demanding an unworkable solution and i'm sure the US's position on Israel would be untenable forceing Israel to negotiate. But as you said neither side want peace. The Palistinians won't be happy till Israel cease's to exist.

Jews and Arabs lived together in peace for centuries in Palestine prior to the arrival of Zionists in the early part of the last century.

If Israel really believed that, why don't they offer a single state solution to the Palestinians, in which all have equal right to vote in a unified state of Israel?

As far as "right of return" goes. You don't go into a negotiation with cap in hand accepting anything you're offered. You'd end up being screwed every time.

All the Palestinians have is their moral right of return to land from which they claim they were evicted. What other moral position do they have?

If someone kicked you out of your home in questionable legal circumstances, you'd probably feel the same way, and then use that as a means to extract concessions.

I think eventually this is all going to end in tears - for both sides. And both sides will probably get their wish that the other ceases to exist. I can't see any other conclusion other than a localised nuclear conflict.

Gordon Brown would probably describe my views on Muslims as bigoted, but for the last 60 years the people of Palestine have been subjected to ethnic cleansing by Israel, and eventually Israel will pay a heavy price. America has created this monster and world opinion is slowly turning against them.