If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

Originally Posted by -Praetor-

Care to explain further, please? This is interesting.

In another mod for M2TW (Chivalry II) there exist archer units that carry shields on their bag or belts. When they go into melee they change the weapon and pick up the shield. You could ask the Chivalry II team how to program that, because I have no idea of programming. I just noticed while playing and remembered this thread.

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

Perhaps the Boii could also be a vehicle to thoroughly highlight the intricate Celto-Greek relations (or Greek influence)?

Oh and excuse my innocence to these fora, but is the type of horse used hardcoded? Because these in the preview look somewhat "modern" (ie too tall,...) to me, especially for 'Western' civilisations of that time

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

I was reading Livius' books about Hannibal, when I came upon a section dealing with the death of consul Posthumius:

Originally Posted by Livius, Book 23, Section 24

While busily occupied with these matters, intelligence arrived of a fresh disaster--fortune crowding into this year one calamity after another--that Lucius Posthumius, consul elect, himself with all his army was destroyed in Gaul. He was to march his troops through a vast wood, which the Gauls called Litana. On the right and left of his route, the natives had sawed the trees in such a manner that they continued standing upright, but would fall when impelled by a slight force. Posthumius had with him two Roman legions, and besides had levied so great a number of allies along the Adriatic Sea, that he led into the enemy's country twenty-five thousand men. As soon as this army entered the wood, the Gauls, who were posted around its extreme skirts, pushed down the outermost of the sawn trees, which falling on those next them, and these again on others which of themselves stood tottering and scarcely maintained their position, crushed arms, men, and horses in an indiscriminate manner, so that scarcely ten men escaped. For, most of them being killed by the trunks and broken boughs of trees, the Gauls, who beset the wood on all sides in arms killed the rest, panic-struck by so unexpected a disaster. A very small number, who attempted to escape by a bridge, were taken prisoners, being intercepted by the enemy who had taken possession of it before them. Here Posthumius fell, fighting with all his might to prevent his being taken. The Boii having cut off his head, carried it and the spoils they stole off his body, in triumph into the most sacred temple they had. Afterwards they cleansed the head according to their custom, and having covered the skull with chased gold, used it as a cup for libations in their solemn festivals, and a drinking cup for their high priests and other ministers of the temple. The spoils taken by the Gauls were not less than the victory. For though great numbers of the beasts were crushed by the falling trees, yet as nothing was scattered by flight, every thing else was found strewed along the whole line of the prostrate band.

Now, I was wondering, is this something the Boii really would have done, or is this simply another case of the graeco-roman anti-barbarian bias?

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

Headhunting was certainly a Celtic custom. I am not sure if they used the skulls for religious ceremonies, but they occasionally fling them into rivers as a sacrifice. (That is: early Iron-Age Cultures threw a lot of valuables into rivers, presumably for a religious reason. IIRC they also did this with heads, which means that it was more than just a macabre trophy to them.)

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

It is however known that many steppe nomads, from the Scythians to the Xiongnu, had this tradition,whereby the turned the top of the skull of their enemies into a drinking bowl, and sometimes covering it in gold. It is mentioned both by Herodotos and in ancient chinese sources. Maybe the celts also had this practice,or maybe Livius had the customs of the celts and the Scythians confused.

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

Although Classical historians were as prone to mistakes as everyone, it does sound like a stretch to confuse Celts with Scythians. Livy would have known the difference. Also, a drinking bowl is not necessarily the same as a ritual cup. Although Livy mentions that the priests used Posthumus' skull to drink from, to me it sounds like it was used as a religious object. Did the Scyths use their skull cups just for drinking, or was this a religious rite as well?

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

I'm not sure, actually. I know of an account from China, when the Han envoys were recieved at the Xiongnu Shan-yü's court, they were served a dring out of a cup made from the skull of the Yuezhi leader more than 200 years earlier, so it seems to have been used in some ceremonial manner. Among the Schythians, Herodotos hints at it being used in ceremonial circumstances, where the host, while serving beverages in the cup, would state who's skull it was, and what that person had done to deserve such treatment.

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

In this relief called the Padua stele iirc, it shows a Gallic cavalryman fighting a Gallic or Ligurian infantryman, with whats though to be a human head attached to his horse. Sorry that this is such a bad picture, I cannot find my up close pic...

Diodorus mentions that:

They cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses. The blood-stained spoils they hand over to their attendants and striking up a paean and singing a song of victory; and they nail up these first fruits upon their houses, just as do those who lay low wild animals in certain kinds of hunting. They embalm in cedar oil the heads of the most distinguished enemies, and preserve them carefully in a chest, and display them with pride to strangers, saying that for this head one of their ancestors, or his father, or the man himself, refused the offer of a large sum of money. They say that some of them boast that they refused the weight of the head in gold.

Celtic tradition and religious belief was that a man's soul resided within his head, and taking the head of a fallen enemy was a sign of respect for some and glory for the taker.

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

Originally Posted by Power2the1

Diodorus mentions that:
Celtic tradition and religious belief was that a man's soul resided within his head, and taking the head of a fallen enemy was a sign of respect for some and glory for the taker.

well many south american tribes believed it was a sign of disrespect to the enemies not eating them because they´re souls would be attached to their bodies for eternity making them wandering gosths instead of releasing them from the earthly world

a bit more of sociological information would be very cool so we understand why certain people behaved as they did instead of the many erroneous westernsided points of view (for instance the abundance of penis images in egypt that where destroyed by the vitorian archeologists because they considered them ... well you get the idea)

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

I´m from Boii (Bójové in czech - after them is Bohemia called Bohemia) homeland and I would like to add few details, especialy on those provinces/oppidums of Boii:

Oppidum Závist - near Praha (yeah, Prague, but it was by legend named after word "Práh" so it is "Praha") was probably settled during 600bc by Celts because of its good position - trade route, gold deposits, defendable position, rich soil for farming. It was probably 27 ha large in its oldest form to aproximately 118 ha in 200bc (maybe 170 ha, sources are different) and counting about 2000-3500 inhabitants (whole Bohemia circa 75 000 - 100 000) with "luxury district" on "acropolis". Defends were quite complex - wooden walls, "wolf holes" (hole covered and with spike on bottom), moats and joining opposite hill called "Šance" (Chance) to one town (about 6-7 miles of walls). The city had a refugium with estimated capacity of 40 000 refugees. Archeologists and antropologists consider this Oppidum as center of power and home of Celtic elites in Bohemia and very rich (as is obvious when they were able to create "Acropolis of Závist" - stone houses, shrines...

Than, probably sometimes in 100 bc it was conquered by Germans and by the time it lost its importance. The last evidence of people dates to 10 AD.

Aprox 90 ha large, on tom of hill called "Hradiště", probably divided to "acropolis" and rest of town. The fortifications consisted from stones fortified with wooden pillars, 2,5 metres high, 4 gates to enter the oppidum. The place was inhabited in circa 200 Bc, work on oppida started on aprox 120bc and oppidum stops to exist in circa 20-40 bc, probably because of German tribes coming in Bohemia. On acropolis there is supposed to have been an shrine, houses were complexes of buildings with central courtyard with one or few entrances to the complex.

The oppidum was center of industry, mining (iron deposits), pottery making and probably some rare metals (gold, silver) production, because there was found a lot of coins (it had its own mint workshop -only other mint to the Závist in whole Bohemia). Cultural and goverment center was Závist.

Nevězice
small oppidum - about 12 ha large, created at aprox 120 bc with round wooden wall with stone groundings, 2 gates. It was one of the "security centres" on important trade route on river Vltava. Quite quickly it become unhabitted, there is some evidence of fires in circa 50 bc and thereafter the stronghold on trederoute became the close "Zvíkov" settlement (maybe it was oppidum too, it is not known.

Oppidum Hrazany
On two hills - Doubí a Červenka and probably one of the first important oppidums in Bohemia settled around 550-460 bc and probably burned down quickly after inhabited. But quickly rebuild and the oppidum itself created aprox. 200 bc with about 30 ha large oppidum with wooden wall (5-6 meters thick and up to 10 metres high), 6 gates, and slowly expanded to 39 ha. It is evidence of large fire in about 95bc but oppidum is being rebuilt with aforementioned stone (or with stone bases) complexhouses with yard in center. Oppidum was important stronghold on important trade route along Vltava river - merchants going by to Závist and Stradonice and even to Germany. End of existence is quite mysterious (no violent events or fire) - it is supposed that people left oppidum because of german tribes moving to Bohemia in about 20 bc.

Oppidum Třísov
Settled up in circa 150 bc and another oppidum on traderoute by river Vltava, this oppidum being the southrnmost one of all. The pinnacle of its importance being in times around 100bc. 26ha large with stone walls, two acropolis and probably being important centre of comerce, light industry and religion - near the oppidum are two rocks called Dívčí kámen ("maidens rock" or "stone") that is considered full of powers by sensitive people and is considered thatit used to be altar to sacrifice young maidens in times that may reach the Boii inhabition of these lands. The oppidum having 7 metres thick walls, two gates. Many pottery workshops, really good iron smelting and even some glass made jewelry and dishes. Many evidence of trade contacts with Romans.

Staré Hradisko

oppidum laying on ember route with mighty fortifications on isolated land between two small rivers or creeks, estimated 37 ha large. Ember is found here even today. It is considered as one of the most important oppidums in central europe. Messages about ember heavy locations here are with us through whole medieval ("in loco, cui Gradisco nomen" - in the place called Hradisko - related to ember - 1552 - bishop of Olomouc Dubravius) or map from 1627 - "Hradisco, ubi myrrha effoditur" - Hradisko, where the myrrha (ember) is being found. The oppidum also having acropolis and also having large settlement around oppidum (as all aforementioned oppidums). Divided into 3 parts, total 2 gates and one gate between acropolis and part of the oppidum. Again complex houses with central yards (50x50 metres aprox). Some paved streets (as in Závist or Stradonice. Walls up to 6 metres (distance between bottom of the moat and the top of wall), thick 4 metres and more, length about 1.4 miles. Archeologists found a lot of pottery, iron, bronze and silver jewelry, weapons and everday use things, coins. A lot of ember goods, evidence of conection with baltic and even some roman coins. Thanks to this it is considered important center of trade, cult and culture. Founded about 200 bc and lasting for circa 100 years - 100-90 bc.

Hope it can be helpfull, can make some more research about anything for you from local sources. Btw: i live near to where Třísov oppidum used to be... Hope you won´t count it as spam...

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

Hey, thanks for welcoming :-) And yes, Oppida - you cant rekognize them at all today - look, here is where the Třísov oppidum used to be: 48.887429,14.352307 (google maps) and today there is only grassland. But when you are on the place, you can sense (with some guide, who tells you where to look), that here probably could be walls, here was gate and there used to be moat... Do you see that circle - made of trees, terain waves etc? It is there - starting and ending by the river, going by the village Třísov, then by the forrest slowly turning right (east) and turning to south through the field back to the river... You can have a picture how large it was.

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

yea, seems like half of all the older previews got their images deleted
too bad really, didn't you plan to host them on your own website at some point? seems quite worth the effort to me, it would really be kind of sad if those awsome prewievs were no longer available in the intended form

Re: Preview: The Boii (II)

This is indeed disappointing. I revisited the Pritanoii preview recently and found that most of the images were still there, except for the unit previews. Which was the only reason I was revisiting it.