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I believe (however you may not, but that's ok) That everything happens for a reason and that all of us have the choice to put ourselves in situations or not.

In the case of a car accident, a construction accident, a rape, an arguemment...are we not truly in charge of where we are and with who we hang out with?

You may not understand this "uneducated" guy, but think about it for a moment.

Jeff

So when I go to the grocery store to purchase food for my family and I get raped in the parking lot, it is my fault for shopping? Or rather we should blame my children for being hungry? I have no problem with people who do not have formal education, as I am one of them...but lack of an education in no way excuses you from making a blanket statement like that.I pray no one you love is ever raped.

It's clear to me that you are just trying to antagonize people. Why don't you just leave since you haven't contributed anything rational to this debate?

Please!

Wesley

I have said what is on my mind, like you have...I am not going away for my opinions...and I guess now must be the time when you expect an apology for my opinions. Well, I am not going to apologize for how I feel.

We need to agree to disagree.If other peoples opinions antagonize you, you need to get a grip.

Let me just chime in on this since I am a HUGE proponent of universal health care.

I'll start by saying it's not exactly a new idea for the United States. The first major politician to propose health care as a right was a republican by the name of Teddy Roosevelt.

As a person with HIV and a person who now works in the health care industry, a day doesn't go by that I don't see people having to make choices that NO ONE should ever have to make. I see people choosing to pay for arthritis medications instead of heart medication or insulin because because they simple can't afford all the medicines they need. People in that situation often choose to risk an early death with limited pain over a prolonged existence with chronic pain. Or you get even more heartbreaking examples such as people choosing between treating one illness or another such as the hypertension AND diabetes choosing one medication over the other because they simply cannot afford both. I also get to see people having their prescriptions sent back to them for HIV medication unfilled for inability to pay, and each time I say to myself "There but for the grace of God go I".

If we can spend 1.2 trillion dollars to invade some shit hole in the middle east that wasn't a threat to us, there is absolutely no reason we can't afford to make sure our people all have access to decent health care and medications. Every other first world industrialized country has managed it, but somehow, the supposedly greatest country on earth can't figure out how to provide health care to all it's citizens?

I don't buy that for one instance. It's not a matter of being unable to do it. It is simply a matter of greed and unwillingness to do so.

We pay more per capita than countries with universal health care.

We pay nearly double in just administrative costs of countries that have universal health care.

We get less for our dollar than countries with universal health care.

We still have waiting lists and rationing just like countries with universal health care.

We have 1/5 of our population that doesn't have any health care at all which drives up the costs for all of us when they end up in the hospital or ER.

Our competitiveness as a country is affected because we are the only first world industrialized country that puts the burden for health care on employers.

We have an enormous number of people who end up in bankruptcy due to medical bills.

We have a significant percentage of population that has to choose between food and medicine.

Doctors require a staff of accountants and medical billers to sort through the thousands of insurance plans.

Insurance companies are level of bureaucracy that profits off the health care system to enrich shareholders. You often hear the claim that universal health care would create some huge bloated bureaucracy, but what could possibly be more bloated than 4000 different health insurance plans each with it's own payment schedule, each with it's own paperwork, each with it's own list of what it will cover and what it won't, each with it's list of which doctors, which labs, which hospitals are in network or out of network, skimming an enormous amount of money off our health care dollar while paying their CEOs enormous sums of money profiting of the sick like a ghoul? And it's a fact that the average insurance company takes 15 to 20 percent of your health care dollar in administrative costs compared to the "overly bloated" Medicare that takes on 2% of your health care dollar for administrative costs.

The current system in the US stifles innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit in America because too many Americans cannot afford to leave their current jobs that have health benefits.

When people in America lose their job due to no fault of their own, if they have any kind of condition that requires routine medical coverage (diabetes, asthma, hypertension, HIV), we put people's lives at risk because they have to go without coverage. I've been there. Most of us have at one time or another. When my job was outsourced to India by Microsoft, so Bill Gates could put another billion into his bank account, the only thought I had was "Oh my god! I am so screwed and will probably die because I can't afford my medication." NOBODY should have to face that in the richest country on the planet.

The bottom line for me is that while neither system is without flaws, universal health care would be a much better bargain for everyone who relies on insurance to cover medical care than the current system.

I don't begrudge our health care system making money. Hell, I want them to be successful and make plenty of it, so they happily keep doctoring me..

I just think we need a system that provides universal access to basic medical care and medications.

I'm not sure how to get there, but I am sure of this: Unless we can agree that such a goal is worthy, we're never going to try.

I agree Whizzer. I've never even suggested dismantling it. I think universal health care is a lofty, but worthy goal. I also see no reason why this universal system could not operate at a profit given the proper business model.

I would be interested to hear some like Warren Buffet and others weigh in on how they feel. Especially after donating some 30 billion and change to charity.

Let me just chime in on this since I am a HUGE proponent of universal health care.

I'll start by saying it's not exactly a new idea for the United States. The first major politician to propose health care as a right was a republican by the name of Teddy Roosevelt.

As a person with HIV and a person who now works in the health care industry, a day doesn't go by that I don't see people having to make choices that NO ONE should ever have to make. I see people choosing to pay for arthritis medications instead of heart medication or insulin because because they simple can't afford all the medicines they need. People in that situation often choose to risk an early death with limited pain over a prolonged existence with chronic pain. Or you get even more heartbreaking examples such as people choosing between treating one illness or another such as the hypertension AND diabetes choosing one medication over the other because they simply cannot afford both. I also get to see people having their prescriptions sent back to them for HIV medication unfilled for inability to pay, and each time I say to myself "There but for the grace of God go I".

If we can spend 1.2 trillion dollars to invade some shit hole in the middle east that wasn't a threat to us, there is absolutely no reason we can't afford to make sure our people all have access to decent health care and medications. Every other first world industrialized country has managed it, but somehow, the supposedly greatest country on earth can't figure out how to provide health care to all it's citizens?

I don't buy that for one instance. It's not a matter of being unable to do it. It is simply a matter of greed and unwillingness to do so.

We pay more per capita than countries with universal health care.

We pay nearly double in just administrative costs of countries that have universal health care.

We get less for our dollar than countries with universal health care.

We still have waiting lists and rationing just like countries with universal health care.

We have 1/5 of our population that doesn't have any health care at all which drives up the costs for all of us when they end up in the hospital or ER.

Our competitiveness as a country is affected because we are the only first world industrialized country that puts the burden for health care on employers.

We have an enormous number of people who end up in bankruptcy due to medical bills.

We have a significant percentage of population that has to choose between food and medicine.

Doctors require a staff of accountants and medical billers to sort through the thousands of insurance plans.

Insurance companies are level of bureaucracy that profits off the health care system to enrich shareholders. You often hear the claim that universal health care would create some huge bloated bureaucracy, but what could possibly be more bloated than 4000 different health insurance plans each with it's own payment schedule, each with it's own paperwork, each with it's own list of what it will cover and what it won't, each with it's list of which doctors, which labs, which hospitals are in network or out of network, skimming an enormous amount of money off our health care dollar while paying their CEOs enormous sums of money profiting of the sick like a ghoul? And it's a fact that the average insurance company takes 15 to 20 percent of your health care dollar in administrative costs compared to the "overly bloated" Medicare that takes on 2% of your health care dollar for administrative costs.

The current system in the US stifles innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit in America because too many Americans cannot afford to leave their current jobs that have health benefits.

When people in America lose their job due to no fault of their own, if they have any kind of condition that requires routine medical coverage (diabetes, asthma, hypertension, HIV), we put people's lives at risk because they have to go without coverage. I've been there. Most of us have at one time or another. When my job was outsourced to India by Microsoft, so Bill Gates could put another billion into his bank account, the only thought I had was "Oh my god! I am so screwed and will probably die because I can't afford my medication." NOBODY should have to face that in the richest country on the planet.

The bottom line for me is that while neither system is without flaws, universal health care would be a much better bargain for everyone who relies on insurance to cover medical care than the current system.

Libvet,

You've done an excellent job of arguing the case for universal health care. Having previously worked in the healthcare industry I couldn't agree more with you regarding the beuracracy and bloated mess that has been created.

I was so disgusted from my experience in that industry with all the greed and corruption. It still sickens me. But, hey a job is a job.

The biggest opponent to any universal healthcare system are these rich, greedy and powerful mega corporations. How anyone can sit back and believe they are going to continue to meet the needs in this nation when we have some 40 million plus uninsured is beyond me.

You've so many good points I am not sure where to start, but you've done a beautiful job of bringing this thread back on track and thanks. Hopefully, you've helped open some minds.

No drugs, dear, but putting oneself in harms way is not the brightest thing to do now is it?

Yes, how I dare I walk down a sidewalk minding my own business and get raped. How silly of me to leave my house and go to work. What in the world was I thinking? Oh, right... gotta pimp for that health insurance. My fault!

Dear Jeff64: I double-dog dare you to go through with 'reporting' Wesley to the Moderators. Nothing I have read to date on this forum by ANY other poster in ANY thread has offended me to the degree of your asinine comment (oh, hell...which one? there are so many to choose from here) declaring a woman who has been raped to be at fault for it.

DISCLOSURE: I had much more to say on this one, but have found the reserve to edited prior to posting.

Incredibly thankful that I have been spared having to know you in person. On behalf of one of my neighbor's daughters, how dare you?

So many are unable to empathize with the condition others are in. We have examples on these very pages.

I too have those feelings of "there but by the grace of God go I". I have them every day. Do others? Are there enough of us to bring about a change?

I think there are enough to bring about a change. Especially with all the seniors (people who vote). Just depends on how it's presented and you know how the conservative right wing love to scare the senior citizens.

Now, I'm no fan of Hilary and haven't heard her plan, but somehow I don't see it doing much for any of us.

I have never understood this American obsession with "taxes". It's as if these "taxes" vanish into thin air with no benefit to anyone. I see the benefits of my taxes when I go to the doctor, visit a hospital, ride our transit system etc.

Perhaps because of the harsher climate, the Canadian mindset is quite different. There's a greater emphasis on the collective good. Let's face it, nobody becomes a success without the support of their community, in one way or another.

I agree our gov't spends much too much $$ on unecessary things. And I agree everyone needs health coverage. No not all health coverage is equal, either.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, that's what the USA is, make it or break it, or just hang on. No one was ever promised a good life here.

I'm sure I am just as uneducated as Jeff. I have a great job, excellent retirement (God willing I make it another 12 years). A decision I made almost 19 years ago.

I have an aunt who works 3 p/t jobs. She buys her own health coverage thru a NYS program, 3 or 4 hundred/month. Guess what? She chose early on, to work for herself. It didn't pan out to the fortunes she was hoping for, but she wouldn't go get a regular job. No pension/retirement either.

My father (may he RIP) was a mechanic. He worked for dealerships when he left the service. New demo to drive all the time, health coverage, etc. He decided he didn't want to work for the man, and went into business for himself. No health insurance, and damn, not even enough $ to support himself in a decent lifestyle. But he was able to stay afloat and live out his life working for himself. When he got older, and sicker, he had to get insurance. When he died, we found out that he was paying over $900 bucks a month for H.I., and not even a good policy. 25 years ago, he met a great woman, and they lived together for 25 years til she passed. All that time it was my fathers decision not to marry her. It was so sensible, she made more $ and had so much more than him. She also had employer sponsored H.I. he could have been on all those years. but his pride (wtf?) kept him from doing it. He wouldn't even marry her on her death bed (as she requested) so he could inherit her house and everything, just to make things easier for him. Pride. He was forced out of the house within 6 months as her sister inherited the house.

These are decisions people make. No not everyone is fortunate enough to have several choices. If you want to work for yourself, start your own mom and pop place, that's great!! Go for it. But if it's a constant struggle, give up the dream, and find a better way.

I will state here that I do not agree that a rape victim is at fault.

I don't know but one Canadian, and we were chatting online last year at tax time. I was FLOORED by the amount of income tax he was paying. I've yet to hear anyone chime in about what Canadians and others with Uni HC are paying for it in cash.

Perhaps they don't have as much expendable cash after taxes to indulge in the unhealthy recreational life choice we can here in the US, so their life expectancy is longer?!?! Perhaps it's just the colder weather.

If there are 40 mil here without H.I., out of 300, I dare say we don't have enough votes to change the system.

If there are 40 mil here without H.I., out of 300, I dare say we don't have enough votes to change the system.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that 40 million number is just people who NEVER get health insurance. 82 million non-elderly Americans go without health insurance during some portion of the year and you can bet they sweat it out hoping they don't get in an accident or get sick.

Another 80 million people are already on medicare or medicaid.

So we have 160 million people already dealing with LACK of health insurance or requiring public assistance for health care.

Then you have people who do have health care that just support the idea of universal health.

And you have the people who are in jobs like mine, in the health care field, where are profits are soaring, but when the cost of our health care premiums is pitted against what we get for a raise this year, we are actually bringing home LESS money.

And polls currently show that around 62 percent of Americans support universal health care.

That number will only increase as our health care costs continue to skyrocket.

Dear Jeff64: I double-dog dare you to go through with 'reporting' Wesley to the Moderators. Nothing I have read to date on this forum by ANY other poster in ANY thread has offended me to the degree of your asinine comment (oh, hell...which one? there are so many to choose from here) declaring a woman who has been raped to be at fault for it.

DISCLOSURE: I had much more to say on this one, but have found the reserve to edited prior to posting.

Incredibly thankful that I have been spared having to know you in person. On behalf of one of my neighbor's daughters, how dare you?

[/quote

If you met me, you would like me.I have my opinions, yes, but I am truly not heartless...honest.I make the best cassoulet you have ever had...

For those I have offended with my opinions, I apologize,For those who cannot tolerate opinions, I do not.

I would LOVE universal healthcare...unfortunately it will never work in the US...I would love to get free healthcare! Who wouldn't!

I agree our gov't spends much too much $$ on unecessary things. And I agree everyone needs health coverage. No not all health coverage is equal, either.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, that's what the USA is, make it or break it, or just hang on. No one was ever promised a good life here.

I'm sure I am just as uneducated as Jeff. I have a great job, excellent retirement (God willing I make it another 12 years). A decision I made almost 19 years ago.

I have an aunt who works 3 p/t jobs. She buys her own health coverage thru a NYS program, 3 or 4 hundred/month. Guess what? She chose early on, to work for herself. It didn't pan out to the fortunes she was hoping for, but she wouldn't go get a regular job. No pension/retirement either.

My father (may he RIP) was a mechanic. He worked for dealerships when he left the service. New demo to drive all the time, health coverage, etc. He decided he didn't want to work for the man, and went into business for himself. No health insurance, and damn, not even enough $ to support himself in a decent lifestyle. But he was able to stay afloat and live out his life working for himself. When he got older, and sicker, he had to get insurance. When he died, we found out that he was paying over $900 bucks a month for H.I., and not even a good policy. 25 years ago, he met a great woman, and they lived together for 25 years til she passed. All that time it was my fathers decision not to marry her. It was so sensible, she made more $ and had so much more than him. She also had employer sponsored H.I. he could have been on all those years. but his pride (wtf?) kept him from doing it. He wouldn't even marry her on her death bed (as she requested) so he could inherit her house and everything, just to make things easier for him. Pride. He was forced out of the house within 6 months as her sister inherited the house.

These are decisions people make. No not everyone is fortunate enough to have several choices. If you want to work for yourself, start your own mom and pop place, that's great!! Go for it. But if it's a constant struggle, give up the dream, and find a better way.

I will state here that I do not agree that a rape victim is at fault.

I don't know but one Canadian, and we were chatting online last year at tax time. I was FLOORED by the amount of income tax he was paying. I've yet to hear anyone chime in about what Canadians and others with Uni HC are paying for it in cash.

Perhaps they don't have as much expendable cash after taxes to indulge in the unhealthy recreational life choice we can here in the US, so their life expectancy is longer?!?! Perhaps it's just the colder weather.

If there are 40 mil here without H.I., out of 300, I dare say we don't have enough votes to change the system.

Just a few of my thoughts as I've read through this thread.

Hey LongIslander,

You bring up a valid point. Well actually several.

First, let me say one's level of formal education has nothing to do with actual intelligence. Doctor's degrees don't impress me. However, in no way could you be so unintelligent as Jeff.

Actually, I was thinking it'd be great if we could get him to represent the conservative side of the debate and put him on FOX, CNN and the rest. Boy, that would all but insure a universal healthcare system. ; )

I think you've brought some excellent material to the debate. I don't think anyone is opposed to people who work hard. Three in my family are self employed and I understand your thoughts on that.

With regard to the income tax level paid out by your Canadian friend. Hmm, it'd be interest to find out what he makes and compare it to someone here in the US and see once we add in all the health insurance premiumns, copays, deductibles etc for a similar individual and see just what the difference actually is compared to overall cost of living and quality of life.

First, let me say one's level of formal education has nothing to do with actual intelligence. Doctor's degrees don't impress me. However, in no way could you be so unintelligent as Jeff.

Actually, I was thinking it'd be great if we could get him to represent the conservative side of the debate and put him on FOX, CNN and the rest. Boy, that would all but insure a universal healthcare system. ; )

I think you've brought some excellent material to the debate. I don't think anyone is opposed to people who work hard. Three in my family are self employed and I understand your thoughts on that.

With regard to the income tax level paid out by your Canadian friend. Hmm, it'd be interest to find out what he makes and compare it to someone here in the US and see once we add in all the health insurance premiumns, copays, deductibles etc for a similar individual and see just what the difference actually is compared to overall cost of living and quality of life.

Thanks for the great input. You've given me more to ponder yet.

Wesley

Can we please stop pointing out how much of an unintelligent person I am?

Jeff, I wasn't putting down your lack of education, I'm right there with you. Hope you didn't think otherwise.

I'm quite fortunate in the career path I ended up with. I pay $19 bi-weekly for H.I. (494/year), then my union reimburses me $150 of that at the end of the year.

I pay $12 co-pays for Dr visits. I call whenever and whomever is in the plan, and no referrals needed.

Generic script co-pays $5, others $30. AGain, at year end, my union will reimburse me up to $150 for Dr. Co-pays, and up to $150 for my script co-pays. I'm a lucky one, and I know it. Especially when I see a thread started by Lis ( i think it was hers) that her family is without HI all of a sudden.

The guy in Canada and I made just about the same amount of $ (him a bit more) but he paid 3 times what I pay for federal inome tax. Mind you, I have many deductions thanks to the house, 401K contr's and stuff. But he also owns his own home in Canada. I don't know what type of deductions homes qualify for there, but I do believe he paid more property tax than I do, and I have a bigger unattached house than he does.

There's no question Canadians pay more in taxes that those in the USA. But then again, nobody here is paying $900 a month for health insurance

Medical care aside, 32,800,000 people spread out over the 2nd largest country on earth will always be paying more in taxes than those in the USA. Its the cost of delivering services to a small spread-out population.

Jeff, I wasn't putting down your lack of education, I'm right there with you. Hope you didn't think otherwise.

I'm quite fortunate in the career path I ended up with. I pay $19 bi-weekly for H.I. (494/year), then my union reimburses me $150 of that at the end of the year.

I pay $12 co-pays for Dr visits. I call whenever and whomever is in the plan, and no referrals needed.

Generic script co-pays $5, others $30. AGain, at year end, my union will reimburse me up to $150 for Dr. Co-pays, and up to $150 for my script co-pays. I'm a lucky one, and I know it. Especially when I see a thread started by Lis ( i think it was hers) that her family is without HI all of a sudden.

The guy in Canada and I made just about the same amount of $ (him a bit more) but he paid 3 times what I pay for federal inome tax. Mind you, I have many deductions thanks to the house, 401K contr's and stuff. But he also owns his own home in Canada. I don't know what type of deductions homes qualify for there, but I do believe he paid more property tax than I do, and I have a bigger unattached house than he does.

There's no question Canadians pay more in taxes that those in the USA. But then again, nobody here is paying $900 a month for health insurance

Medical care aside, 32,800,000 people spread out over the 2nd largest country on earth will always be paying more in taxes than those in the USA. Its the cost of delivering services to a small spread-out population.

I, for one, would be perfectly willing to accept an increase in taxes to fund a universal health insurance plan in the US.

It's amazing how when this topic comes up, Americans start bitching, whining, pissing, and moaning about taxes... but did anyone make the "cha-ching" cash register sound every time a cruise missile flew into Iraq? Never do I hear about how high taxes are when discussing American military prowess... when it comes to killing foreign civilians... it seems that we're willing to do that at any price... when it comes to insuring our poor... then it's too expensive.

...The guy in Canada and I made just about the same amount of $ (him a bit more) but he paid 3 times what I pay for federal inome tax. Mind you, I have many deductions thanks to the house, 401K contr's and stuff. But he also owns his own home in Canada. I don't know what type of deductions homes qualify for there, but I do believe he paid more property tax than I do, and I have a bigger unattached house than he does.

I t would be great to hear about this end of it from someone there.

Mortage payments are not tax deductible in Canada, it would be discriminatory against renters Contributions to an RRSP (registered retirement savings plan) are tax deductible. Property tax varies by municipality.

We're extremely inefficient. Why? Because with private insurance the administrative costs are thoroughly redundant across 50 states. That is where all the money goes... not to the doctors, but to the CEO's and the massive administrative apparatus. A single payer system like Canada's has one system handling all the paper work and is much more efficient.

I definitely agree with the waste of resources of redundant administration. I've never understood why we're supposed to be 'One Nation', but laws, regulations, and programs vary so much from state to state. Maybe instead of the idea of socialized health care, some sort of effecient nationwide Medicaid program that is uniform would go over a bit better here.

I definitely agree with the waste of resources of redundant administration. I've never understood why we're supposed to be 'One Nation', but laws, regulations, and programs vary so much from state to state. Maybe instead of the idea of socialized health care, some sort of effecient nationwide Medicaid program that is uniform would go over a bit better here.

David

Which is a single payer system, same as what Canada has or close to it. That was my point.

Mortage payments are not tax deductible in Canada, it would be discriminatory against renters Contributions to an RRSP (registered retirement savings plan) are tax deductible. Property tax varies by municipality.

Apropos of nothing at all, I've always liked this cartoon:

You know I have enough damn deductions. I've always felt that not allowing renters the same right is somewhat discriminatory; however, I would side that their is the incentive of owning and being productive because of that mortgage deduction.

I don't know what others are paying, but Texas is horrible for property taxes. Absolutely, out of control. I'm paying for golf courses at schools and God knows what all. I fail to see how that qualifies as education.

Don't even get me started on the ball parks! LOL. Ok, clearly time for me to hit the hay. Nite everyone. It's been a fun and lively debate and I will look forward to seeing what has transpired by tomorrow and see if anyone has solved the problem.

And I learned that people who pay more taxes should have more say in how the government spends the people's money (perhaps we could institute an "American Citizen Standard," "American Citizen Gold," and "American Citizen Platinum" program for people depending on how much money they make, so they can get more bang for their buck from the government) than what I think.

I won't give you exact numbers, and I'm in Aus, but we have a taxpayer funded health care system.

I pay 26.5% of my income in taxes. On top of this I pay an additional 1.5% Medicare levy, to fund our health care system. As I am considered a 'high' income earner, I am also obliged to take out private patient hospital cover, or pay an additional levy of 1.0% of my income into Medicare. My private patient hospital cover costs me about $500 a year. For me, a visits to the doctor attract a co-pay of about $20 (some other docs it is $0), and for a script I have a co-pay of about $25/30.

We have no tax deductions for simply owning a house, nor do we pay land or property tax on our place of residence.

There is no such thing as 'free' health care. It is either paid for through taxes, the employer or the individual. And, while governments are usually considered wasteful and inefficient, one thing they don't like spending money on is health care. This means they are always trying to find ways to make savings - negotiating cheaper prices for drugs with US companies, and spending $ on prevention to keep people out of the system in the first place eg effective HIV campaigns rather than abstinence.

And I learned that people who pay more taxes should have more say in how the government spends the people's money (perhaps we could institute an "American Citizen Standard," "American Citizen Gold," and "American Citizen Platinum" program for people depending on how much money they make, so they can get more bang for their buck from the government) than what I think.

Silly child, that system has been in existence for years. It's called Capitalism. We're all just commodities, or, as our beloved Edina put it, "industry fodder."

Boo

P.S. If there's a warmer part of Canada I'll move and attain citizenship, then adopt you. Just as long as there's not too much snow...

Logged

String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!