Hey Le Duke, we each have a right to express our opinion. Speaking of opinions...

Originally Posted by Le Duke

It’s relevant in that people at making statements that are inaccurate at best re: STA.

I wonder if this is fact or opinion. May I ask what qualifications you have that make your statement regarding others' opinions ("inaccurate at best") fact rather than merely your own opinion? And if what you've said is merely your own opinion, please help the rest of us understand why your opinion is more credible than the opinions of others. I'm not being flip when I ask this. If you do understand the intimate nuances of frame design, I'd like to ask you some additional questions.

Originally Posted by Le Duke

Just like using the word “capable”. It means nothing unless you further clarify what it is more or less capable of. There are trade offs. There is no free lunch; one bike is not more “capable”; it just has a different range of conditions under which it is ideal.

Read back. That's not what MTBguru71 said about capability. Here it is:

Originally Posted by MTBguru71

I'm sure glad intelligent mountain bikers chase trends with their hard earned dollars. The results of this are more choices in bikes with greater capabilities.

In this case (s)he clearly used the word "capabilities" as a comparative noun. "Greater capabilities" implies compared to bikes that came before. To say there's no free lunch is irrelevant. Outright gains have been made in bicycle frame design. I recall days when mountain bikes had top tubes that were parallel to the ground.
=sParty

Hey guys ive had my machine for about 3 months now and been riding it every chance i get... has anyone notice excessive amount of flexing? I know for it being a long geometry bike its known to have some flex. But when i was feeling around the top tube as I shake the bike left and right the seam underneath the top tube shifts side to side where its suppose to be glued, also under neath the bottom bracket where the seams come together has also play. Its not glued any more and by this causes the bike to have excessive play. Also i had a friend follow me and he sees excessive flexing left and right at every pedal strike load.. another time i notice when i hit a jump the landing is pretty rough from the excessive flexing. Ill try to post a video soon. Thanks

Hey guys ive had my machine for about 3 months now and been riding it every chance i get... has anyone notice excessive amount of flexing? I know for it being a long geometry bike its known to have some flex. But when i was feeling around the top tube as I shake the bike left and right the seam underneath the top tube shifts side to side where its suppose to be glued, also under neath the bottom bracket where the seams come together has also play. Its not glued any more and by this causes the bike to have excessive play. Also i had a friend follow me and he sees excessive flexing left and right at every pedal strike load.. another time i notice when i hit a jump the landing is pretty rough from the excessive flexing. Ill try to post a video soon. Thanks

Hey guys ive had my machine for about 3 months now and been riding it every chance i get... has anyone notice excessive amount of flexing? I know for it being a long geometry bike its known to have some flex. But when i was feeling around the top tube as I shake the bike left and right the seam underneath the top tube shifts side to side where its suppose to be glued, also under neath the bottom bracket where the seams come together has also play. Its not glued any more and by this causes the bike to have excessive play. Also i had a friend follow me and he sees excessive flexing left and right at every pedal strike load.. another time i notice when i hit a jump the landing is pretty rough from the excessive flexing. Ill try to post a video soon. Thanks

They did a lot of testing and DH riding on the prototypes. But that is not to say that you could get an unfortunate delamination. It happens with aircraft parts from time to time. Run your finger over the join area, it should be smooth, if there is an edge then there is some movement. Good luck

It's an aerospace technique. If it is executed properly there shouldn't be an issue. Yes this guy is having an issue but it remains to be seen if it is isolated or not.

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Yes, my reaction is not that it's impossible, it's that whenever tried in mtb it's often been an utter failure, like Crank Bro's "glued-together" crank-halves. I'm familiar with aerospace, but they don't often glue the engine-mount to the firewall or the wing-struts to the fuselage.

"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

The parts are held in place with bolts, the glue is added for extra rigidity, but yeah, I had the exact same reaction the first time I saw "aluminum frame" and "glued together" on the same sentence.

The frame is bonded that's what's holding it together. The small bolts are just there so they don't need a fixture for the bonding process. This allows cheaper/faster production. If the adhesive fails those bolts will not hold the bike together under a rider.

There are plenty of articles that talk about Shimano cranks being machined in halves then glued together.

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I wasn't aware that was how they were made, I'd be interesting to see the cross-section and see how they "fit" together, in other words how critical the glue is. Still, monocoque frames like Foes and San Andreas that were produced in halves were always welded together down the middle.

"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

The frame is bonded that's what's holding it together. The small bolts are just there so they don't need a fixture for the bonding process. This allows cheaper/faster production. If the adhesive fails those bolts will not hold the bike together under a rider.

You are right.
I went to re-read the article where I originally read about the frame, and it is as you say.
Still, past examples with aluminum tubes and lugs make me rise one or two eyebrows .

I wasn't aware that was how they were made, I'd be interesting to see the cross-section and see how they "fit" together, in other words how critical the glue is. Still, monocoque frames like Foes and San Andreas that were produced in halves were always welded together down the middle.

I'm Leo Kokkonen, and I'm the founder of Pole bicycles and engineer behind Pole Machine. It's nice to see how much interest there is towards our product in this forum.

Our frame is machined from 7075 T6 aluminium billets. Bonding the halves together we use mechanical and adhesive joints to create a tubular monocoque frame. We distribute the loads by external shape and wall thicknesses like in any other frame but we can also produce internal shapes that is impossible with conventional methods. The frame halves have mechanical connections and steel bolts. The bolts also share lateral loads and secure some areas for extreme situations.

We are continually learning from the process, and we have updated already frames several times after we started the production. The updates are relatively small. For example, we added bolts near the bb and head- and top tube to strengthen the frame for extreme impacts and stress. The good thing about machining is that we can quickly change the design within weeks instead of year model batches.

All our customers who have bought Machines have full warranty on the frames for liabilities and defects, and because we are doing something that no one has any experience, we have extra resources for warranty cases.

I'm happy to answer any questions, and I'm at Crankworx Whistler next week if someone wants to meet me and see the product live and maybe swing his leg over the bike

I'm Leo Kokkonen, and I'm the founder of Pole bicycles and engineer behind Pole Machine. It's nice to see how much interest there is towards our product in this forum.

Our frame is machined from 7075 T6 aluminium billets. Bonding the halves together we use mechanical and adhesive joints to create a tubular monocoque frame. We distribute the loads by external shape and wall thicknesses like in any other frame but we can also produce internal shapes that is impossible with conventional methods. The frame halves have mechanical connections and steel bolts. The bolts also share lateral loads and secure some areas for extreme situations.

We are continually learning from the process, and we have updated already frames several times after we started the production. The updates are relatively small. For example, we added bolts near the bb and head- and top tube to strengthen the frame for extreme impacts and stress. The good thing about machining is that we can quickly change the design within weeks instead of year model batches.

All our customers who have bought Machines have full warranty on the frames for liabilities and defects, and because we are doing something that no one has any experience, we have extra resources for warranty cases.

I'm happy to answer any questions, and I'm at Crankworx Whistler next week if someone wants to meet me and see the product live and maybe swing his leg over the bike

All warranty replacements will be handled with the current revisions on Machines at the moment.

Note that all sizes are individuals on construction and we can make small changes weekly without any notice. We mainly optimize machining time. In some cases we might change joints mainly because we can get better performance / weight etc. It's really cool working on this because as soon as we learn something we can implement it next week. This kind of changes are hardly seen outside the frame so from customer point of view it is not relevant until we make some big changes. So every time one purchases a Machine it is the latest design.

Yes, my reaction is not that it's impossible, it's that whenever tried in mtb it's often been an utter failure, like Crank Bro's "glued-together" crank-halves. I'm familiar with aerospace, but they don't often glue the engine-mount to the firewall or the wing-struts to the fuselage.

Quite a lot of modern cars are held together by glue.
Those same cars are immensely stiffer and safer than cars from 20 or more years ago.

Hey guys ive had my machine for about 3 months now and been riding it every chance i get... has anyone notice excessive amount of flexing? I know for it being a long geometry bike its known to have some flex. But when i was feeling around the top tube as I shake the bike left and right the seam underneath the top tube shifts side to side where its suppose to be glued, also under neath the bottom bracket where the seams come together has also play. Its not glued any more and by this causes the bike to have excessive play. Also i had a friend follow me and he sees excessive flexing left and right at every pedal strike load.. another time i notice when i hit a jump the landing is pretty rough from the excessive flexing. Ill try to post a video soon. Thanks

Really interested in how it actually rides. Any comparisons to a more traditional geo? What were you riding prior? Anyone...?

It's not my bike. To be blunt I would not consider a 7-8 # (before rear shock so really 9+) frame that costs so much and is such low production. You just can't get enough development and support for such a low volume product.

I also don't buy the entire biodegradeable angle either because it doesn't consider the lifetime effects of this process (mining and smelting huge blocks of aluminum, transporting it, electricity for the machinery, manufacturing of bits, etc...). But that's not really a motivating factor for most.

It's not my bike. To be blunt I would not consider a 7-8 # (before rear shock so really 9+) frame that costs so much and is such low production. You just can't get enough development and support for such a low volume product.

I also don't buy the entire biodegradeable angle either because it doesn't consider the lifetime effects of this process (mining and smelting huge blocks of aluminum, transporting it, electricity for the machinery, manufacturing of bits, etc...). But that's not really a motivating factor for most.

my bad, Suns_PSD. i should not have responded directly to you. i meant it as a question to everyone on the thread. everyone is entitled to their opinions and i am not looking to get into the carbon/alum debate or weight or whatever. we buy this bike or that bike for our own reasons. there are more incredible bikes out there today than ever so it's great to have so many choices. i would just love to hear about how the machine rides from anyone who has thrown a leg over one. cheers.

I'll be on the look out for your thoughts on that bike as well, I have to assume it will be awesome.

I'm looking for a dedicated DH bike that isn't a full dual crown set up. Something i can pedal if I had to but wouldn't be my day-to-day trail bike. That is what has me interested in the machine. hopefully some other owners will chime in here at some point.

Hey guys ive had my machine for about 3 months now and been riding it every chance i get... has anyone notice excessive amount of flexing? I know for it being a long geometry bike its known to have some flex. But when i was feeling around the top tube as I shake the bike left and right the seam underneath the top tube shifts side to side where its suppose to be glued, also under neath the bottom bracket where the seams come together has also play. Its not glued any more and by this causes the bike to have excessive play. Also i had a friend follow me and he sees excessive flexing left and right at every pedal strike load.. another time i notice when i hit a jump the landing is pretty rough from the excessive flexing. Ill try to post a video soon. Thanks

Pole redesigned the frame (top tube nut checker) and they sent me a new one, ive been riding it and so far so good, also they made futher adjustments by adding a special mount for a chainring bash guard...
other than that Pole stood by their warranty and im happy with my machine!

Questions on your Machine ownership....

Originally Posted by gil machine

Pole redesigned the frame (top tube nut checker) and they sent me a new one, ive been riding it and so far so good, also they made futher adjustments by adding a special mount for a chainring bash guard...
other than that Pole stood by their warranty and im happy with my machine!

Very good to hear this. I myself am currently trying to decide which Pole I should get. I was [am] leaning toward the 158 because I really don't care for the asymmetrical rear linkage. Thus the 158 OR the Stamina has my interest. I'm just curious as to how the Stamina would do on all-day type rides....which I do a lot of, and which my current favorite bike [Evil Wreckoning] excels at. Sure, it may not be the 'fastest' on the long climbing sections, but it is indeed a very comfortable climbing bike...as well as excelling at anything steep and technical. So if, say, the Stamina were at least as good as my Evil is for all-day rides...then heck I'd surely make use of the extra cush because this new type geometry seems to utterly favor my riding style...thus the Pole!

So are you still very happy with your Machine? Do you take it on LONG rides? If so, how would you best describe it? ie: is it just 'Ok'?, ...is the fun-factor still high enough to make you forget about how much travel it has? I'm asking this question because, for me, the Evil Wreckoning has somehow managed to become 'thee' bike for me...even though I've read [plenty of times] about people who say that it is too much travel etc. I don't feel this at all from it.

Another question I had is : When you ordered you Machine, did it arrive on the date you were originally told it would? ..OR did is take months longer than that? I ask because I'm pretty leery about paying --in full-- for a stamina being told it will be shipped in March, when IN FACT it might end up arriving 6 months later than that. ..like what happened to a few other people I have interacted with online.

I have a Machine and think it’s fantastic so far. It shipped a month late, but that wasn’t that big of a deal. I emailed about it once and got an immediate response. The Machine is my one bike and I think it does it all well. Climbing is great (coming from an SB6) and descending is super fast, fun and safe. Highly recommended. The bike doesn’t feel long and the riding position makes it easy to negotiate tight situations.

The Pole is certainly an interesting looking bike. it was on my shortlist along with the RAAW Madonna.

I ended up with the latter, mainly because I managed to find one luckily enough second hand at a significant saving over the new price. I would happily have gone with either but with the Pole being that bit newer, the chances of finding something other than brand new, was minimal.

"I have a Machine and think it’s fantastic so far. It shipped a month late, but that wasn’t that big of a deal. I emailed about it once and got an immediate response. The Machine is my one bike and I think it does it all well. Climbing is great (coming from an SB6) and descending is super fast, fun and safe. Highly recommended. The bike doesn’t feel long and the riding position makes it easy to negotiate tight situations."

Good to hear. I as well am nearly decided on the Machine. I am tempted though to wait a while, maybe another year, to see if they end up making a new bike like the Machine but with the linkage similar to the Stamina. I myself think the Machine is a work of art in terms of the industrial 'look'. Right now my Evil Wreckoning continues to be 'thee' most fun bike I have ever owned. The ONE thing that I do hate about though is this : In any type of sloggy wet weather rides, the rear linkage 'packs' up with debris. So much so I actually have to use a half water bottle of water into the linkage whilst the bike is upside down on-trail, otherwise it will get so bad that it actually stops the linkage from working. So that is really why I am going to part with it as soon as I get another bike. If not for this, I'd keep it 'til I die. But back to Pole : I have a suspicion that my riding style and position on the bike will end up being a perfect match with the Machine. I myself think the Wreckoning climbs fantastic, so if the Pole even comes anywhere near it in terms of climbing, I will be happy man for sure. My rides are often over 5 hours long....and I figure that if the Wreckoning does the job at such a high fun-factor...then for sure the Pole should do so as well. Evil suspension is incredible in terms of feel and traction. But from what people have been saying, seems like the Pole is also distinctive and fun. We'll soon see.

They do not list BB height in GEO (just says -20 mm on the Machine below the rear axle and some “not to low, not to high” bull crap on the Stamina), anyone know exactly what it is?

Damn, just list the BB height so folks can easily compare.

I’d probably run DHF 3.0’s or SE4 3.0’s on it since I don’t ride mud.

I am not a fan of really low BB’s.

I did some searching, and apparently a typical 1/2 29" wheel dia. with tires is about 375mm. That matches up with what Pole told me when I emailed them, saying the Machine has a 355mm BB height (with 2.5" front 2.4" rear tires).

I have a Machine and think it’s fantastic so far. It shipped a month late, but that wasn’t that big of a deal. I emailed about it once and got an immediate response. The Machine is my one bike and I think it does it all well. Climbing is great (coming from an SB6) and descending is super fast, fun and safe. Highly recommended. The bike doesn’t feel long and the riding position makes it easy to negotiate tight situations.

How does it compare to the SB6 in terms of descending? I have and SB6, I'm seriously intrigued by the machine