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How is Ryan laughable? 7 career no hitters and by far the most Ks of all-time. Glavine is like the third winningest lefty and probably the most underrated guy on the list. I'm not saying he is number 1 I just need enough guys to make out a full 15.

Most K's of all time? Wicked nice... Except that if you do the percentage difference between him and K man number two, and BB man #1 (him) and #2, his lead over the #2 BB man is a good deal larger. Not so hot.

7 career no hitters? How about over his entire career? On any given night he was no place near Clemens, Koufax, Gibson, Maddux. On average he was 11% better then the average pitcher in the given year pitched (ERA+ adjusted for park, and per year is the single most helpful way to look at a pitcher - unless you count the stats that are associated like DERA and NERA.

Did you know that about 112 of his wins came at the distance of 50' from home plate - a mere 4 feet further then 8 year olds pitch from.

Did you know he sucked up so many innings because it was different game then? He probably couldn't get out of the 1st against the '03 or '04 Bosox without giving up at least 5 runs.

History looks good, it sounds good, but in reality, Wood's way way out of his league. WJ and Alexander did some big work against the live ball guys when they were done with the dead balls guys, but they were not as good (also older). The first for sure pitcher has to be Grove. He's generally considered top 5 or even top 2 no matter how you slice the numbers.

Did you know that about 112 of his wins came at the distance of 50' from home plate - a mere 4 feet further then 8 year olds pitch from.

Did you know he sucked up so many innings because it was different game then? He probably couldn't get out of the 1st against the '03 or '04 Bosox without giving up at least 5 runs.

History looks good, it sounds good, but in reality, Wood's way way out of his league. WJ and Alexander did some big work against the live ball guys when they were done with the dead balls guys, but they were not as good (also older). The first for sure pitcher has to be Grove. He's generally considered top 5 or even top 2 no matter how you slice the numbers.

Regardless, he still has an additional 399 wins, so I'm sure that he could have managed.

The game always changes, thats not an excuse. I can't say that he wouldn't get out of the first inning against a team either..that's not only ignorant of his talents, but no one can predict that, so why bother?

511 wins, 2.63 ERA, 2803 Ks, ERA+ of 138 with a 1.130 WHIP.

I'll still take him as the best all time. This thread is all based on opinion, you have yours, I have mine. I simply believe he is the best, that won't change. They're all great regardless.

EDIT: I know he won a ton because he started many more games and tossed more innings. That doesn't change the fact that he would have been able to dominate either way. Besides, wins aren't everything.

although nolan ryan is the all time leader in K's, and won 300 games. He ranks first all-time in walks allowed (2,795), first in wild pitches (277), third in losses (292 - most in the modern era), and ninth in hit batters (158). Ryan was a great pitcher but I probably wouldn't even put him in the top 10-15 pitchers ever.

that's not only ignorant of his talents, but no one can predict that, so why bother?

I agree wins are overrated. Based on first hand accounts at the time:

Young like pitchers of his day threw hard no more then 3-8 pitches a game in key situations. It's been estimated that he threw in the low-mid 80's for the most part - basically BP speed today.

The first great pitcher known to have thrown hard was WJ. The next one was Grove (harder then WJ, but not known how much harder) before he hurt his arm. According to a player/manager Grove threw harder then Feller, and that's hard. They threw hard because of the change into the live ball era.

So you want to take a guy who didn't dominate his era as much as several other guys (besides the longevity), and face him up against the game that we've had for the last 70 years? OK...

Young like pitchers of his day threw hard no more then 3-8 pitches a game in key situations. It's been estimated that he threw in the low-mid 80's for the most part - basically BP speed today.

The first great pitcher known to have thrown hard was WJ. The next one was Grove (harder then WJ, but not known how much harder) before he hurt his arm. According to a player/manager Grove threw harder then Feller, and that's hard. They threw hard because of the change into the live ball era.

So you want to take a guy who didn't dominate his era as much as several other guys (besides the longevity), and face him up against the game that we've had for the last 70 years? OK...

Unless you watched his games or have live tape of it, there's no way that can be proven for him.

Just because he threw that hard a majority of the time (if it's completely true) doesn't negate the fact that he could more likely then not, dial it up. Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks Cy Young is the best of all time.

Again, there's no point in trying to make me believe otherwise, you're wasting your time. You're not doing anything other then saying why my opinion is wrong, then saying why you think others are better. How hard a person throws, doesn't always matter.