Quote:there are techniques that exist in both, and sometimes the overlap may seem quite large, but the intention is different. in judo, they are used to score points. in jujutsu, they are used to hurt. that is why strikes are VERBOTEN in judo, because they are too dangerous for sport.

Aren't strikes verboten in jiu-jitsu training as well?

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not taking away from judo at all! its great, and builds great exponents. but it is still a combat sport in which you score points. jujutsu is a martial art.

Can't people train striking in Judo? I've seen it done within the context of judo. Doesn't that mean anything? Is that not still judo? If not, why not?

If you PRACTICE judo for competition, then you're training for a sport. If you practice judo for self defense, then it's for self defense. See the point I'm getting at?

"Judo" is just an art. It's how you TRAIN it which will determine it's "use".

Eh no. Strikes are done in a controlled manner to avoid injury. Hard enough to have a small effect, but soft enough to avoid lasting damage.

And any judo i have trained in or seen, it has all been geared towards competition. i was told i couldn't do things i could do in jujutsu because it was "unsafe" and a real gem: "unsportsmanlike".

So in my experience, judo is primarily nowadays geared towards sport. which is a shame, because it was once so much more than this. I agree that if it taught with the intention of teaching self defense, then it is useful. all i meant was that a lot of schools teach it as a sport.

no offence to any judoka meant, i enjoy training in judo too.

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Practice does not make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect.

Eh no. Strikes are done in a controlled manner to avoid injury. Hard enough to have a small effect, but soft enough to avoid lasting damage.

Seen that done in Judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu as well. Don’t see how Japanese jiu-jitsu is any different. It’s called “vale tudo”.

Besides, it’s still all “pretend” isn’t it?

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And any judo i have trained in or seen, it has all been geared towards competition. i was told i couldn't do things i could do in jujutsu because it was "unsafe" and a real gem: "unsportsmanlike".

MY point is that you’re STILL not really doing anything in jujutsu that is “unsafe” or “unsportsmanlike”. How is it any different?

Are you REALLY hurting your training partners, or just pretending to? See the point?

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So in my experience, judo is primarily nowadays geared towards sport. which is a shame, because it was once so much more than this. I agree that if it taught with the intention of teaching self defense, then it is useful. all i meant was that a lot of schools teach it as a sport.

It’s no different than anything else UNLESS you are training specifically for a rules event. Not everyone does. It pays to be aware of this.

Eh no. Strikes are done in a controlled manner to avoid injury. Hard enough to have a small effect, but soft enough to avoid lasting damage.

Seen that done in Judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu as well. Don’t see how Japanese jiu-jitsu is any different. It’s called “vale tudo”.

Besides, it’s still all “pretend” isn’t it?

BJJ does use strikes but Judo I believe leaves them mostly until after black belt.

In terms of JJJ it depends on which school you go to really, I've trained briefly in a school where they regularly get out the MMA gloves and go at it pretty hard, no rules. There are so many different styles and schools out there. Some of them won't touch strikes until after black belt and others will be training "full contact striking" at white belt.

Modern judo has its origins in jujitsu, a fighting art that can be traced back over a thousand years into Japanese history. Judo itself, however, is a relatively recent synthesis and owes it existence to the genius of one man: Dr. Jigoro Kano.

Jigoro Kano was born in the seaside town of Mikage in 1860. He and his family moved to Tokyo in 1871. Mr. Kano studied politics and literature at Tokyo Imperial University. He became an instructor of the Gakushuin in 1882 and eleven years later, he was appointed the Headmaster of the Koto Shihan, a teachers' training school. In 1909, Professor Kano became the first Japanese member of the International Olympic Committee and two years later, he founded the Japanese Athletic Association and became its first president. Because of his many contributions in the field of athletics, Professor Kano is called the "Father of Physical Education and Sport" in Japan.

Professor Kano is internationally known for the development of judo. Until he was 18 years of age, Jigoro Kano was physically weak. He resolved to improve himself by studying at two jujitsu schools. He soon realized that each school had its strengths and weaknesses. Because there was unnecessary roughness and crudeness in the jujitsu techniques, and because it was difficult to practice without injury he began to reconstruct jujitsu. As he states in his own words: "...so by taking together all the good points I had learned from the various schools and adding thereto my own devices and inventions, I founded a new system for physical culture and mental training." Kano called his new system Kodokan Judo to differentiate it from the jujitsu forms. "Judo" means "the gentle way" and "kodokan" generally means "a school for studying the way", "the way" being the concept of life itself.

Again, in Kano's words:" "There are two reasons why I avoided the term 'jujitsu'. One is that there were jujitsu schools which often indulged in violent and dangerous techniques in throwing or twisting arms and legs. Seeing these things, many people came to believe jujitsu was harmful. Again, in an exercise hall where supervision was inadequate, the senior pupils would wantonly throw down juniors or pick quarrels, so that jujitsu was despised as something that made rowdies of young men. I wished to show that what I taught was not a dangerous thing, and would not needlessly injure any person, that it was not the jujitsu as it was taught by some people , and that it was "judo", an entirely different thing.

"The second reason was that when I began to teach jujitsu had fallen into disrepute. Some jujitsu masters made their living by organizing groups composed of their followers, and putting on exhibition matches to which admission fees were charged. Some went so far to stage bouts between professional sumo wrestlers and jujitsu men. Such degrading practices of prostitution of martial arts were repugnant to me, so I avoided the term jujitsu and adopted judo in its stead."

The Kodokan was first established in 1882 with only nine students the first year. Soon, the new Kodokan Judo became the center of public attention. But its practical merits were looked upon with contempt by most old jujitsu men, including master Hikosuke Totsuka. There soon developed a keen rivalry between the Kodokan and the Totsuka School. Things came to a head in 1886. In Kano's words: "Under the auspices of the Chief of Metropolitan Police, a grand tournament was arranged between both schools. This was a decisive battle. Defeat would have been fatal to the Kodokan. But in that tournament, to which each school sent 15 picked men, the Kodokan won all the bouts excepting two, which ended in a draw. That brilliant victory established once and for all the supremacy of Kodokan Judo over all jujitsu schools."

One of the principles of judo is that a stronger opponent can be defeated by turning his strength against himself. Professor Kano explains how in yielding there is strength: "Suppose we estimate the strength of a man in units of one. Let us say that the strength of this man is 10 units, whereas my strength, less than his, is 7 units. Then if he pushes me with all his force, I shall certainly be pushed back or thrown down, even if I use all my strength against him. This would happen from opposing strength to strength. But if instead of opposing him, I leave him unresisted, withdrawing my body just as much as he pushes, at the same time keeping my balance, he will naturally lean forward and lose his balance. In this new position, he may become weak (not in actual physical strength, but because of his awkward position) as to reduce his strength for the moment, say to 3 units only instead of 10 units. But meanwhile I, by keeping my balance, retain my full strength, as originally represented by 7 units. Here then, I am momentarily in a superior position, and I can defeat my opponent by using only half of my strength, or 3 1/2 units against his 3 units. This leaves one-half of my strength available for any other purpose. If I had greater strength than my opponent, I could of course push him back. But even if I wished to and had the power to do so, it would still be better for me first to give way, because by so doing, I should have greatly saved my energy and exhausted my opponent's."

Jigoro Kano died in May 1938 while returning from the Cairo International Olympic Conference. Men's judo was first included in the Olympic Games in 1964 and became a permanent part of the Games in 1972. In 1992, women's judo became part of the Olympic Games as well. Kano defined the two principles of Kodokan Judo as "Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort" and "Mutual Welfare and Benefit". He said that "physical education should train the body to be strong, healthy and useful in actual life and also make a contribution to the culture of the mind." His system of judo is just that.

Under the Feudal System of Japan, several military arts flourished among the samurai class. Examples of these arts are archery, fencing, horsemanship, the use of spears, the Katana - sword of the Samurai - and other weapons. All of these forms were more or less familiar to the people of most European nations. Virtually all of the martial arts have been practiced in the Western World with an excellence equal to the Japanese, although their forms and methods were not quite the same as those practiced in Japan. The skill of gaining victory by yielding to the opponent's strength appears to be an art peculiar to Japan: no similar art form has ever been known or practiced in any European country.

Although the origin of Jujutsu is not clear, and no fixed date of its first appearance can be ascertained, there is no doubt that it is a purely Japanese art. Further, it has not been derived from ancient Chinese Martial Arts as some scholars of the martial arts have proposed. It has been a common belief of various researchers that a Chinese priest named Chin Genpin brought the art of Kempo, "kicking and striking", to Japan around 1659. In 1659, Chin Genpin became a naturalized Japanese subject and died in 1671.

While engaged in the practice of Jujutsu at the Kokushij Temple in Tokyo, he taught three ronin (out of work samurai) named Fukuno, Isogai, and Miura. After extensive development of their skills, they founded three different Jujutsu Ryu independently of one another. It is not possible that Chin Genpin first introduced Jujutsu into Japan, because Chinese Kempo - which may have been brought over by him - is quite different from Japanese Jujutsu, and because some arts resembling Jujutsu can be traced back to before the time of Chin Genpin in Japan.

Evidence that Jujutsu prevailed in Japan in ancient times is indicated by an incident, which occurred in 24 B. C., when the Emperor Suinin ordered two strong men named Sukune and Kuehaya to wrestle in his presence. This struggle to test the strength and courage of the two ancient giants consisted mainly of kicking, hitting, and gouging with Sukune gaining advantage of his opponent by breaking his ribs, after which he "trampled" upon his loins and back until Kuehaya was fatally injured. Although this incident is generally cited as being the origin of wrestling in Japan, it would seem that it was actually more in the nature of Jujutsu in view of the fact that Kuehaya was kicked and gouged to death.

Sumo wrestling is the national sport of Japan, but it is not the only nationalistic sport derived from the ancient court wrestling of the Nara emperors. When wrestling was banned by edict in 1175 A. D., an atmosphere fostering creative development of all types of hand -to-hand fighting arts was started under the influence of the military. This developmental period lasted several centuries and continued even after the Portuguese explorers arrived in 1543. Ultimately, no less than 725 official documented systems of Jujutsu were developed all of which concentrated on situations in which no "major" weapons were involved. All together, these systems were called Jujutsu.

As it is not possible to discuss all of the different branches (Ryu) of Jujutsu, this writing will mention a few of those, which are generally considered to the most significant developments in the art. The oldest Jujutsu movement is the Takenouchi-Ryu, purported to have been originated by Takenouchi Hisamori, a native of Sakushu, in the year of 1532. This branch taught Kogusoku, or the art of seizing, which is somewhat different from the pure art of Jujutsu.

The Takenouchi-Ryu may be regarded as the primal system for the teaching of arts similar to Jujutsu. Fukuno Schichiroemon of Temba originated a second system called the Kito-Ryu. This Ryu `appeared in the middle of the seventeenth century. Prominence of the "Art of Throwing" (Nage-waza) and "Form Practice (Kata) gave the Kito-Ryu great prestige and popularity. In close connection with this branch was a third branch called the Jikishin-Ryu, whose founder was Terada Kanemon, a native of Unsho, and the contemporary of Fukono. Both Fukuno and Terada lived about the middle of the seventeenth century in somewhat close relationship to each other. They established two separate systems of Jujutsu some years before the time of Chin Genpin. These two systems appear to be the oldest of all the varied systems of Jujutsu.

Inugami Nagakatsu of Omi founded the Kiushin-Ryu. The date of its founding is uncertain, and there are some reasons to believe that this branch was derived from the Kito-Ryu. Inugami Genpin, the grandson of the founder, attained such eminence through his skill at the Kiushin-Ryu that he came to be regarded as the founder of the school. The Sakiguchi-Ryu, Founded by Shinbukawa Bangoro, are two other well-known Ryu of Jujutsu. The Yoshin-Ryu, or the Miura-Ryu, and the Tenjin-Ryu were also prominent systems.

The Yoshin system, founded by Yoshin Miura, taught that many illnesses were the result of a disproportionate use of mind and body. Miura devised several Jujutsu methods involving "arresting devices". After a lengthy study with two of his disciples, he developed fifty-one arresting methods, His students, following his death, established systems of their own, further expanding his teachings.

The Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu was founded by Matayemon Iso, a student of the Yoshin-Ryu. After several years of studying, Iso set out to tour the country and, at the same time, test his ability. Every where he traveled he competed with renowned masters in Jujutsu tournaments. His proficiency was such that he never lost a contest.

The branches of Jujutsu grew during the feudal period, particularly during the time of Iyemitsu, the third and ablest of the Tokugawa Shogun, under whose government feudalism was completely established in Japan. The art of Jujutsu continued in various provinces in Japan and today Jujutsu can be found in many forms throughout the world.

Jujutsu is not merely a combination of Karate, Judo and Aikido, but is actually the art from which Judo and Aikido were born. Many of the techniques and principles found in these arts, are also found in Jujutsu. Also, many of the striking techniques that are found in Karate, are also found in Jujutsu.

Types of techniques typical of Jujutsu include:

Nage Waza - throwing techniques

Kansetsu Waza - joint locking techniques

Atemi Waza - striking of the vital points

Shime Waza - strangulation techniques

Katame Waza - ground fighting techniques

Osae Waza - holding techniques

Ukemi Waza - falling techniques

Ate Waza - striking techniques

Geri Waza - kicking techniques

Uke Waza - blocking techniques

Goshinjutsu Waza - self-defense techniques

My bet would be Jujitsu

*bows respectfully*

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No matter how fashionable it is on Krypton, I will not wear my underwear on the outside of my Gi!!

Quote:Whats so wrong with judo being sport? Everybody loves sports.Still i dont know whats better for a begginer like me?

Judo is a sport, and thats what is great about it. It, like boxing and kickboxing can be practiced frequently without a high risk of serious injury. jujitsu is more arm locks and joint locks, that can cause serious injury if taken too far, so it would make it difficult to practice, full go.

i say judo. its easy and after a few weeks max, u should be doin randori which is great practice. I like judo its fun.

by the way, if u do throw somebody let say Ippon Seoi Nage, or even an Osoto-Gari, if u plant em hard enough u wont need joint locks to win.

Konnichiwa,After training in Judo for 3 years now and upon taking my Shodan Ho grading in the martial art. I started to study Ju Jitsu. I becam a member of Ishin Ryu Ju Jisu, Under the instruction of Shodai Soke Kevin Pell.I would advise depending on your personal Style of martial arts, if you prefer No nosense or Kata formed martial arts. Try tehm both. I prefer Ju Jitsu due to the no nonsense form of self defence