Guys, we can spin off our thoughts about feminism here without drowning out women's voices on other threads.

Share your stories; what you've learnt and would like to learn; amplify the voices of women who've written about this so other women don't have to explain it to you.

Let's also talk about masculinity – toxic and otherwise – and how expected gender roles shape our own problems such as increased suicide rates, being both primary victims and perpetrators of violence, and how we break out of a culture that actively resists men taking about this stuff.

In other words, Atras is totally correct. Why does hearing "no" send men into a murderous rage?

But it doesn't.

First let's get this out of the way: I'm not saying domestic violence isn't a huge problem. It is. I'm also not saying that our culture does a fine job of educating men about consent. It doesn't. In fact it does the opposite.

Based on that article you linked, though, the most pessimistic number of murders per year was "over a thousand," and the cited studies were considerably less than that. Even if that figure is off by a factor of ten, let's say there are 10,000 sex-denial-rage-murders per year. There are 128 million adult women in the US. Based on these admittedly fuzzy numbers, an adult woman has a 0.0078125% chance of getting murdered for saying no. One in nearly thirteen thousand.

Women should not fear saying no. Based on this National Safety Council chart, the chance of dying from that is somewhere between the chance of dying in an air or space transport incident and the chance of dying from being electrocuted or irradiated.

There is no national movement to educate people on the risks of air and space transport.

Just like men are culturally conditioned to be domineering, women are culturally conditioned to be accomodating and worry about the outcome of being assertive.

If you ask me, a woman should not only be unafraid to say no, she should say no and cockpunch any handsy jackass who doesn't get the message. Maybe she'll get arrested for battery, but maybe the night in jail would be worth it if that dude reconsiders his dating tactics with future women.

Meanwhile, we should also use more conventional approaches to educate men about consent from an early age.

BadKen wrote:

Some things before I retire from this thread.

1) I apologize to Eleima that my frank contribution was upsetting. The discussion was about what happens on dates, and I was offering a call to action. I did not mean to blame any victim, nor did I mean to imply that the solution to the problem is the responsibility of the victims. However, the long term solution of educating men about consent does not help the woman who finds herself on a nightmare date.

2) Abusers in long-term relationships are a whole different can of worms from sexual predators who are serial assaulters. It is heartbreaking to read about Eleima's experience. 20 years ago I went through something similar in my marriage to my wife, who was mentally ill, very dependent on me, and went through periods of extreme instability. We ended up separating, she died from cancer, and I have never really recovered from not being the person she needed. She was too small to throw me around, but she wasn't too small to throw sharp objects or punches. There was both mental and physical abuse, and frankly I'm still suffering because of it.

My point is that kind of suffering is not theoretical or abstract to me. I have not had to endure nearly the same kind of problems in the workplace or out in the world that women go through, but I do know first-hand what can happen in a home.

3) This isn't a safe space thread. I consider myself thoroughly feminist. I fight casual sexism every day among my family and friends. However, it seems that I am incapable of commenting on some subjects without my comments being interpreted in the worst possible way because I express myself poorly. I am incapable of putting my thoughts across on sensitive subjects without coming across in the exact opposite of the way I want to. This isn't the first time it has happened on this site, or with people who frequent this site. So from now on I'm just going to avoid discussions like this altogether, despite the opportunities for learning and growing. I'll just stick to games.

Bringing Ken's post over here because I'm bewildered to have read it.

First and foremost, #NotAllMen. That's your argument for why women shouldn't fear saying "no" because of fear of murder. Well, as pointed out, it's not just murder. Maybe a little slapping around or that guy trashing you to others, calling you a slut and making up derogatory stuff. Even if the statistics of murder are as low as electrocution or irradiation it is a topic that needs to be educated about. Why? We don't worry about radiation because we have laws and engineering to keep us safe from things like microwaves and nuclear meltdowns. We trust in society for that. Should women trust society to teach men they may not know very well to not be aggressive when they don't get what they want? When their libido gets cold water thrown all over it that they're gonna be a-okay with it completely? I just don't think it's as cut and dry as radiation. A nuclear meltdown is an extreme thing because it's a rare thing to be around nuclear material. Women being murdered is not as rare because there's way more interactions between people going on all the flippin time. So, yeah, only 0.0078125% of the time you go on a date will you get murdered for saying no to sex. Gawd, when you go speed dating that means you're only 0.08% likely to be murdered! No worries!

Second, I don't believe anyone ever said anything about violence against men not existing and your discussion of your past, which I'm sorry to hear about and wish you and your ex nothing but healing moving forward, is an example of minimizing the challenges women face from day one of their lives. You've only learned what that's like more recently. Imagine if it wasn't just your ex-wife, but multiple ex-whatevers, dozens of dates you went on and hundreds of random dudes on the street, at concerts, at bars, etc. Imagine if you have to fear facing your wife everywhere you go, every day of your life. I get that your story was intended to sympathize with women, but it comes off as minimizing.

I'll leave off there, for now as I need time to process some more. Ken, if your post was a call to arms to educate men and not to be afraid of saying no, you failed greatly to do so. You then compounded it with a non apology. I sure hope you take some time and re-read what you wrote from a different angle and then think it over.

NSMike wrote:

How did I live before digital distribution of old, cheap games?

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

You did live before digital distribution of old, cheap games. Now you just play games.

Just like men are culturally conditioned to be domineering, women are culturally conditioned to be accomodating and worry about the outcome of being assertive.

I agreed with almost everything you said, but I don't know if this is fully true. I agree that many cultures say men should be domineering, but I think the culture is just mimicking genetics. If you were to do a social experiment and put 100 kids on an island with no moral guidelines, I would bet they would grow up creating the same culture.

Isn't society and culture meant to minimize the animal in us all? There's a difference between saying "men shouldn't be aggressive ever" and "men shouldn't kill women who say no to sex".

And in what vacuum could we possibly put 100 kids on an island with no moral guidelines? That's a silly thought experiment that would never happen. By the time they're able to fend for themselves, the kids are already accultured in multiple ways. There's no cultural control group out there to test against. You might find traction with putting kids from different cultures on an island and seeing what happens, but even then it's a silly thought experiment.

Yes, human behavior is based on our biology, but we've been subverting and suppressing the baser aspects of our biology in order to, hopefully, create a better life for everyone where we engage more of prefrontal cortex and less our reptilian brain.

NSMike wrote:

How did I live before digital distribution of old, cheap games?

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

You did live before digital distribution of old, cheap games. Now you just play games.

I'm hopeful that this thread will be a bit less about theoretical circle jerks about real problems and a bit more serious self reflection.

So let me go first with something that has rocked me. The Aziz Ansari story has really hit me hard because it's so close to a situation I had. Be prepared for some serious over shares below and maybe some uncomfortable reading...

Back when I was an 18 year old virgin I got into a situation that sounds a lot like the one in question. I invited a co-worker I had a crush on to my place and we had a couple of bottles of wine and things got... steamy. It was a good time, but being a horned up 18 year old desperate to lose my virginity I pushed quite hard. She gave a lot of soft 'No' but hey, that's how it's supposed to go right? She stayed and I kept pushing until I eventually got a very unenthusiastic 'yes.'

So I stopped.

I wish I could claim I was respecting her wishes, but most of the truth is I suddenly realised I was going to lose my virginity to someone who wasn't all that interested, and who I would need to face at work.

Now while if I had accepted that consent I wouldn't by any legal definition be a rapist or sexual assaulter, but I would still be a colossal piece of sh*t. I was still a piece of sh*t because I only hit the brakes for selfish reasons, but I had the respect and friendship of someone I valued highly.

Afterwards she actually told me that she couldn't believe I stopped, and even friends of hers she told were amazed at how it went. I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back, let me reiterate, I did it for selfish reasons, but the surprise she expressed shocked me because of the expectation that most men, in her experience and that of her friends would have had sex despite the lack of enthusiasm in their partner. It just didn't seem sexy to me.

Then when I spoke to some of my friends I found out that they would have followed through, so that also shocked me. That so many people would push someone into bad sex just to put their end away.

And that's what the backlash about Ansari is about. It's a push back against bad experiences for a significant number of people that just needs a bit of mutual respect and self awareness.

Or sh*t, maybe some enlightened selfishness. Having sex with someone who isn't enthusiastic is bad for both of you.

I do not have a similar thing to share as I have never been that forward/insistent. And for the ages that I was young and dumb enough to be that insistent (say 18 through 23), I largely never really pursued any relationships (which is a story for another time/format).

That said what you're saying speaks a lot to this research/blog post about how men hear Soft No and, when it comes to sex, choose not to hear them

I'd always been somewhat introspective, for my part, and I have had the added advantage of never having been impressed with toxic role models or messages. My mother is a very active and assertive woman, and so are most of my aunts. The only uncle I had who could be called "macho" was often cast as the wild one and everyone else was having to bail him out of something or another. I love him, but he was never anyone's idea of a role model in that regard. Even he didn't think he should be emulated. He had a very turbulent love life.

A lot of these messages are rolled with young boys and young men with identity and self-doubt. This is often a theme of red-pill messages and even classic toxic coming-of-age tales. You be a man by removing self-doubt, but also incidentally steamrolling everyone else in the process. It's a very subtle distinction and one nearly always lost on a hormone-addled teen. Young men are not taught how to communicate and express, and this also manifests in toxic male friendship relationships where everyone is talking at once and no one is listening to anything. It's where sheer stubborn bullheadedness could be tolerated.

So when I say, "You need to be more sensitive and read her intentions," that often comes across as vague and nonspecific. Men don't know what it means or what to do with that advice. You have to drill down to, "Alright. Stop thinking about your penis for a moment and look at her. Really look. Don't do anything or think sex. Just look. If you can't figure out what she's saying about the situation from her nonverbal cues, just f*cking ask." A more educated person would simply "read the air" as they translate from Japanese and quickly figure that a woman tensing up is not a good sign and is probably a definitive point for stopping everything and reassessing. If she wants your dick, she will get it herself. You don't need to worry about that.

There is also this idea, propagated by porn and by cutting out sex in movies, that sex has to be fast, penetrative, and competitive. This is the best it can be. It's not. It isn't for me. What's the fun in 5 or less minutes of fast thrusting without regard for anyone? You could do that with a tree. Or a fleshlight. The fleshlight is probably better for that than a person.

There is a lack of information among men that sex could be more than this. That it should be more than this. A conversation isn't something you win. It's not something you do alone. It's not something you push for. You both have to be in on it for it to be any good. And if you're really good, you're going to have a nice give and take and everyone is happy at the end. Someone who is interesting may dominate conversation, but is rarely good company. And if it doesn't work out? Well, not everyone is into 12th level 5e D&D paladins. It just didn't work out and it's no one's fault. Find something else enjoyable to do together.

I'm sure everyone's noticed by now, but there's a number of ways that society is specifically constructed that make it terrible for everyone. As LarryC said, the way men are taught to approach sex results in a lot of mediocre sex for everyone, even after you avoid the sexual assault and boundary violations.

Second, I don't believe anyone ever said anything about violence against men not existing and your discussion of your past,

There was a post following his earlier one that said to the men "You have no skin in this game, sexual assault and domestic violence are abstracts."

which I'm sorry to hear about and wish you and your ex nothing but healing moving forward, is an example of minimizing the challenges women face from day one of their lives. You've only learned what that's like more recently. Imagine if it wasn't just your ex-wife, but multiple ex-whatevers, dozens of dates you went on and hundreds of random dudes on the street, at concerts, at bars, etc. Imagine if you have to fear facing your wife everywhere you go, every day of your life. I get that your story was intended to sympathize with women, but it comes off as minimizing.

This is all true. It wasn't just minimizing, though, or seeking sympathy. It was refuting an accusation that what he said came from a place of total ignorance.

Maybe the takeaway is that in these discussion, a lot of accusations will fly around. Even if you feel someone is pulling you into a discussion personally, they're not. They don't have your personal situation in mind, the have the general reality for people of your identity in mind when they make an accusation.

My mother is a very active and assertive woman, and so are most of my aunts.

Out of curiosity and for clarity, is this a cultural norm for you? I believe you're Filipino and a quick search tells me my memory serves me correct that it is something of a cultural norm.

I apologize in advance if you aren't Filipino!

I am. Not all Filipinos belong to my particular subculture. The Chinese Filipinos maintain a strongly patriarchal culture, and the Muslim ones, too. Spanish-influenced ones practice the European style of patriarchy. I see that a lot. But our specific part of Filipino culture is actually matrilineal. I live with my mother-in-law and my father lived near my maternal grandmother. Property isn't exactly passed from mother to daughter, but more of the property sees this trend because women are perceived to be more responsible.

Of the big above-board businesses, it's likely that 1/3 are led by women. But nearly all the market stalls are manned and operated by women. Men serve mostly as grunt labor. Nearly all the micro-grocers (sari sari store) are also run by women, and most stall snack or eating stands are also run and operated by women. The small business environment is overwhelmingly female.

My own mother runs a LAN shop and a money transfer service, and she has investments in several bluechips. The bulk of the family money is under her direct control.

Many small business loans and banks subtly and sometimes explicitly favor women for small loans. My sister runs an ice cream outfit she started after she quit in disgust from Canon's misogynist corporate environment, and she prefers dealing with other women businessmen. Less fickle, she says. Less prone to drama.

My sister runs an ice cream outfit she started after she quit in disgust from Canon's misogynist corporate environment, and she prefers dealing with other women businessmen. Less fickle, she says. Less prone to drama.

Absolutely fascinating as I commonly hear in the US that people don't like working for female bosses because of the drama.

Thanks for the reply!

NSMike wrote:

How did I live before digital distribution of old, cheap games?

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

You did live before digital distribution of old, cheap games. Now you just play games.

Due to a combination of family factors and bipolar disorder that went undiagnosed until just last year, I've had near zero self esteem for most of my life. One advantage there is I've never really found myself crossing any lines when it comes to sex as even flirting I've always taken as mockery. Never figured women would ever be interested in me.

No, my low self esteem was the cause of another problem: the sheer tonnage of emotional labour that partners have had to put in to bouy up my self esteem is staggering. Especially during depressive episodes. Constant, constant need for validation because I couldn't generate it for myself. And I was blind to the fact that that was even something I was demanding of someone. They're your partner, right? That's just what they do.

We expect that of women. We expect them to be the caring and nurturing ones and unload all our emotional baggage on to them. Hell even good male friends who are woke af I have trouble talking about this stuff with. We suck at it and it's not because we're wired differently, we suck at it for the same reason anyone sucks at everything: we never practice it.

I'm going through some sh*t right now and even knowing what I know I'm leaning on the support of my women friends. I need to stop that. I need to ask my male friends for help. Even if we suck at it, maybe we'll get some practice in.

Gravey wrote:

Reading Maq's post as anything but dry humour probably means you just need another cup of coffee.

You can PM me anytime Maq. And you're right. It's not just for the support. Many of us could use the practice. I once entertained courting a very pretty young woman in college. Rich, too. Her mom was loaded. But she was also Tiger Mom and her daughter consequently had self-esteem issues. VERY high maintenance. I'm sorry to say that I was not looking to be someone's emotional support to that extent. The constant need for validation was very draining.

My wife does a great amount of emotional labor. She packs our family gifts. She remembers whose birthday is when. She sends text greetings. She makes the Christmas list. She is literally Santa Claus.

But my mother trained me (this is not innate, guys) to recognize this and take on some of it. I shop for gifts for our friends and family. I take the kids to task for misdeeds. I run interference because she doesn't always get on with her own mother. I soothe their misunderstandings and I listen to her ranting without judgement or interruption. She doesn't need a solution. She just needs to rant. I'm there.

Being unable to communicate isn't manly. It's a skill gap. It can be fixed.

Amusingly, she often says I'm the strong one because I don't often need to rant to anyone. If I can take it out on a Thunderjaw, that's usually good enough for me. The anger passes and I'm good. When she's listening to what I have to say, it's very usually a set up for a very bad pun. I am a dad, after all.

Men should talk more about many things, period, with women's rights and sexual conduct being one of the most important. Men are half of the equation after all. The more problematic half in many respects.

This thread is a good idea. It should preserve what are considered safe spaces for women. And create distance between areas that can temporarily fracture our views of each other where we do not align one hundred percent.

Aziz Ansari, was where I came in.

SillyRabbit wrote:

I think there are definite lessons to be learned here. I don't think Aziz Ansari is anywhere near a monster or even a predator. He was pushy for sure. The reasons I'm sympathetic to him are some that have already been stated. I'm also sympathetic to Grace for reasons also already stated. This wasn't an assault, it was a bad date and he was gropey and gross. Lots of lessons to learn here if people want to have good dates, good hook-ups or whatever. What he wanted was very clear. It seems she also wanted something, but what that was was not clear, other than to slow down. Seems to me he slowed down, and then stopped when it became clear. I agree with those that say that they both could have handled this better.

Eloquently expressed by SillyRabbit, is how I viewed the situation.

I can see how Aziz Ansari may have taken sheepish following from Grace as confirmation she wanted to continue, with a thought to her being submissive or shy.

Grace accepted the invite to hop up on the counter top. Grace went along with the removal of her and Aziz Ansari's clothing. Accepting this, enthusiastically or sheepishly, is leading Aziz Ansari to think he is on the right track. They were relatively new to one another so nerves were to be expected. Grace went along with receiving oral sex. Grace went along with performing oral sex. Grace would then bring an end to all sexual activity when Aziz Ansari asked, prior to penetrative sex, and was answered with a "no". Both Grace and Aziz Ansari get dressed and watch television together. Grace leaves at her choosing.

Aziz Ansari contacts Grace saying he enjoyed their date. Aziz Ansari then shows remorse when learning Grace did not share the positive experience.

It then gets caught up in #metoo and others project their feelings or their experiences onto it.

I feel for Grace. I feel for Aziz Ansari. I see two human beings who let each other and themselves down. He should have taken more care with his approach. She should have taken more responsibility for her actions. If they'd met halfway they may have had the start of something special.

Now, maybe Aziz Ansari is about to fall under an avalanche of such incidents as with most of Hollywood. Or, maybe it really was an awkward date where wires were crossed and feelings misread.

Why Grace felt she couldn't say " no" and needed to continue. Why Aziz Ansari felt he had to take the lead and show a repertoire of moves. Both entirely unnecessary constructs created by our ill society.

I think the part where he went wrong and where our societies often teach toxic lesson is where he doesn't pick up that she's just going along with what he wants. This can confuse men because many women also internalize this standard and won't initiate or participate, or even explicitly want to be submissive to the point where it becomes a problem.

The way I see it is, if she isn't impatiently tearing off my clothes, nothing is going to happen. I don't take off my own clothes. I've never needed to.

Regarding Aziz - I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and a dozen other women to report similar or worse stories about going out with him. It's anecdotal, but I'd already heard noise about him being not OK prior to the recent burst of outing disgusting players in Hollywood.

She says Ansari began making a move on her that he repeated during their encounter. “The move he kept doing was taking his two fingers in a V-shape and putting them in my mouth, in my throat to wet his fingers, because the moment he’d stick his fingers in my throat he’d go straight for my vagina and try to finger me.” Grace called the move “the claw.”
.
Ansari also physically pulled her hand towards his penis multiple times throughout the night, from the time he first kissed her on the countertop onward. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”
.
But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a f*cking game.”

There's a lot to unpack when it comes to going to far or misreading signals, but if you keep trying the same move over and over, that's not a missed signal. That's clicking on "Are You Sure You Want To Delete?" over and over again and then complaining about how computers are so confusing and keep eating your files. That's exactly what she felt it was: it's a game. I would not be surprised if there are more stories that will come out about him with the same M.O.

The way I see it is, if she isn't impatiently tearing off my clothes, nothing is going to happen. I don't take off my own clothes. I've never needed to.

I agree. I was forever on the back foot waiting to be led. I've always had this notion that you do whatever the girl wants you to do, and when.

Then society seemed to suggest I was supposed to aggressively pursue women, and take the lead, sexually, to convey my manliness. Thank goodness I never had to consider this. Look at what it can cause. I wonder how many men think it is normal, or desirable.