If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Fight Club is the new forum AGD was talking about, it's for certain illustrious members of our group to discuss things with an extremely low signal-noise ratio, basicly it's for tech discussions between the demi-gods amongst us.

I would like to know as well, it seems to defeat the purpose of this forum. I came here well over a year ago from IPR. (Back before AGD owned the site, and before we ever knew AGD was actually T.K.) In that time I havn't made 50 posts, but I have read a great deal of them. The reason i stayed was becuase the discusion was intelligent, trolls were delt with, and it was all a big online family.

This whole fight club thing is 180 degrees from the right way to go. It seperates the knowlegable posters from the unwashed masses. If they are worried about their posts being lost in a sea of OT junk, maybe the OT junk should be gotten rid of.

This does two harmful things to this community, first it divides it, and rather arbitrarily; and second it leaves that much more room for junk to be posted on the main.

Get the non-paintball stuff off the main, and we get back to where we were prior to the shut-down. And in my opinion, that smaller, closer-knit community was much preferable.

Fight Club is meant to sort out the most inteligent posts and put them in a place where the casual reader can go read them all at once. It (if it works right) will condense the best of what this forum has to offer into an easy to read section. We have been loosing the interest of many old time people because they find it tiring to wade through all the posts looking for ones to read.

Please don't take this as segregation, if that becomes the general feeling we will have to kill the club.

If this was a forum for only AGD staff to post about new products, like the trigger frame, or the modular bodies, and then people can comment on the main, I could understand that. For you this forum is an investment, and i understand why its important to get opinions about new stuff for marketing. 1000 brains is better than 1. This forum helps you to get information out, and thats important.

However, to have a board where only the elite are represented is divisive to the community. If you can post there, why post here? If the goal is to keep people on topic, why not make an off-topic board? I can read a FAQ just like the next guy, which is what the fight-club board will become, just a huge FAQ. But what if I have a question about something that someone posted, or a comment? Why not make the board so only registered Club members can post, but anyone can reply. Slap me if I'm wrong, but I always thought the point of a discussion forum was to discuss stuff, not watch it happen.

Personally, I don't really expect to get in, nor do I care, because the amount of intelligent knowledge I know about Mags and pneumatics in general could probably fit in a thimble.

But there are those here who won't get in and WILL care. They will feel excluded, and then they'll be angry.

What will this do? It will divide the community. It's turning AO into a class system where you have the aristocratic elite and the peon commoners :-) This causes inter-class tension. Hasn't anyone here ever taken sociology? I'm not guessing this will happen, it's proven human nature.

If there were a forum just for AGD employees/engineers/techs to discuss stuff where we could watch, that would be one thing. That would be like looking through the glass into the DNA extraction chamber at Jurrasic Park. But Fight Club is more like looking up at a glass ceiling and wondering who you have to sleep with to get on the elevator.

I think that AO is the best paintball forum on the net, and I don't want to see problems because of Fight Club, and I can only see that happening.

Im not sure how well fight club will work out - but maybe instead of feeling left out and bitter - you give it a chance and listen to people much smarter than you hash out some interesting topics. Maybe you will LEARN something. Im not saying you all are idiots. Hell - its hard for me to keep up some times and I consider myself pretty sharp. But Tom, Rob, Manike, and Bill Mills (to name a few) have a DEEP understanding of how paintball gear operates and have a solid understanding of engineering. A school lecture? Nothing so formal. But you might learn a thing or two if you stop passing notes and throwing airplanes.

There is NOTHING stopping you guys from taking a topic from Fight Club and discussing it on here.

Also - in order to build a community - you must allow off topic posts. Other wise people get bored reading about power tube spacers for the 10th time this week. It is also too costly in the way of the time for our moderators. It also breed bad feeling from users because they feel repressed. So - let me state yet again, that OT posts will continue on the main forum.

Im sorry you all feel this is going to split us up. To be honest - it was Toms idea and soemthing he got excited about. I mean - if you have ever met Tom in person, you dont talk alot. You do alot of listening. You prod and ask some questions, but in general you here what he has to say. I think Tom wanted a forum more centric to his thinking - having people he knows help him discuss something beyond what drop forward to get. I think he was hoping that you all would see it as a way to view a roundtable discussion among select panalists...

Well - we all see things different. I hope it works out. But dont worry - we can kill the forum in one minute should it damage our community...

Shooting the Dingo after it eats your baby is just a little late to do any good, except for maybe your conscience.

I know i will never make it into the club. I got RL issues that keep me from making paintball my life (god knows i wish i could). I also realize that alot of knowledge is and will be represented by the Club. Just the staff alone has forgotten more than most of us could learn in a dozen lifetimes.

Which is why I was glad they were posting on our (main) board! It gave us a chance to interact with people that we look up to and respect. It made me proud to be a Mag owner, becuase it felt like the man who masterminded our gun was right down there in the trenches with us. He is doing his best to be number one in producing guns and we are doing our best to become number one while using them. Will that continue?

I don't know. Where I'm from, its all about the good old boy system, and thats what this reeks of. Everyone hates the good old boy network becuase its elitest, that is until they get asked to join, then they are all gun-ho. They turn their backs on the people that used to be their friends. Are the good old boys the most knowledgable farmers in the tri-county area? Sure. Does anyone besides them care? Not Really.

I don't know, maybe I'm just cynical when it comes to human nature, but thats all I can see this becoming, I've seen it happen too many times to think otherwise.

But I see people voting for Son, xSpyx, and Pyro. No offense to either of them (As much as I love to make fun of Pyro :-), but they aren't exact the premeir paintball minds on this site. They just post a lot. And thats not a bad thing, there are a lot of questions here that these guys answer.

I think that if Tom wants it to be a group of people who can come up with innovative paintball ideas, then he should handchoose them himself. And the list should be small.

I'm thinking Tom, Rob, the other AGD employees (JJ, John Sosta, etc), manike, Bill Mills, etc, but not just people who post a lot on here like cphilip (Nothing against you, man, just trying to hopefully make a point here without pissing anyone off.) Cphilip is a great guy, and superhelpful, but I don't know if he is going to be the guy to think up the "next big thing".

I hope no one takes this the wrong way and understands the way I mean this, I just used cphilips name because it popped into my head, and I figure he's the least likely to take this personally.

I'm going to stop rambling and give other people a shot...

And by the way, Webby, I don't feel left out and bitter, if you were aiming that at me, I'm just trying to prevent other people from ending up that way.

I think there are other ways of dealing with the problems on the site other than segregating which you are doing. I have a little over 100 posts, a bunch were lost. I could 900 if I posted pointless stuff which a lot of people do. So people that get there names out will be most known and the first and most likely to get into the club. Out of all my posts I probably have 5 that were pointless and didn't need to be written, all others were to answer a question or ask one.

I still think another forum is necessary, a general paintball forum which OT threads would be allowed. Use the main forum for Mag stuff only. This would clear it out.

There are people intelligent on this site that don't post every other second.

First off - Rooster seems to be lamenting the LOSS of Tom Kaye and others. They arent going anywhere! The "unwashed masses" will still ask quesitons, Tom will still answer them, and Tom will stil be asking everyone in the main forum thier opinion on upcoming projects.

The people who get post privilages do so because Tom has met them in real life - or thier posts have caught his attention. I know for a fact post count doesnt mean anything.

And one more thing about new forums etc. We are going to open up a couple new forums - but you guys think this is a magic cure all - its not! We have a hard enough time getting you guys to post where you are supposed to with only 4 forums - if we open it up it will mean even more people will put posts in the wrong place. More forums is all well and good - IF people use them. And thus far I see a ton of tech posts in the main forum and vice versa.

Like I said, the road to hell is paved with good intensions. By concentrating the intelligence from this forum and putting it on another you are opening the door to their leaving and not coming back. If you could post important ideas somewhere else with out having Joe Noob's OT post pushing it down, wouldn't you?

I agree, the forum is a great idea for making a community of our best and brightest and having them debate things that could make AO, AGD, and paintball better. Its like an artist's colony, or a brain trust. But the problem is that those are closed societies and could very easily become elitest. Will it happen? Who is to say. Could it happen? Of course. Ever read Animal Farm?

I have my own ideas about what a semi-automatic is becuase i was a sport shooter for 10 years. But I have to email cphillip with my ideas becuase aparently I'm not intellegent enough to carry on a conversation with the movers and shakers on this forum.

Seperate but equal isn't equal at all. Either all our opinions count or you might as well revoke all our posting privilages and make the forum a bulitin board. Never have to worry about posts getting buried, never have to worry about flames or noobs making multiple posts. I'd still read it, and then at least I would know what my place is.

I deeply respect the patriarchs of the AO family. They have alot of wisdom to impart. But an invite only forum is is just as bad as an invite only country club or anything else elitest. There is only one thing that makes one elitest organization different from another, and thats when the rules to get in are completely subjective. Having a forum for techs only, or mods only is one thing, this club is something else. Didn't anyone get enough of this popularity contest stuff in high school? Thats what it is. Nominate your buddy, nominate the people you think will be most valuable to you. Then you get people posting stuff like all your posts are fluff, you don't deserve to be in, you nominated yourself, you don't deserve to be in.

The cracks are forming, and the lines are being drawn. Its really sad to me, becuase I love this place. But the fact is that it existed before AGD bought it, and it can exist without them. If enough people find this as much of a problem as I do, whos to say what will happen?

Why should it even come to that? I thought the overwhelming concerns about the forum would have quashed it, and yet today i log in and find it there. All the people pre-invited leap to defend it, and those who find the idea loathesome are told in so many words to learn to like it.

jeez, what a headache!!! i mean i think the idea could fly, nothing will be hurt in trying. but i feel like im sitting in on a session of congress here. its like were about to decide the fate of the world. paintball is supposed to be fun, thus since this is a paintball site it too should be fun. lets just try it out and go from there. if it doesnt work out, people will voice their opinions at that time and we can do what we need to to fix it.

Start your own topic in the main forum. Im sure everyone would love to hear your ideas.

I still dont feel this is an elitist group. I am sorry that you find it that way. Its not a private group for us to stroke eachothers egos (I CAN make it so only people who can post can view the forum). The idea was to get some interesting conversation...

I dunno - I see your point but I just dont think you are giving it a fair shake...

I dont want people to feel like this is an elitist forum - at the same time it *IS* Toms money that makes this all possible - he deserves to have some fun with it...

Rooster, I see your point, but you are looking at it from the wrong angle. Fight Club is a forum where yes, call them the great minds if you will, can gather and discuss in-depth technical aspects of the sport and equipment. But it is not for their enjoyment alone, that is why webby has allowed us to be able to view all that is written, rather than a closed access post.

We can learn while avoiding the inevitable response, like:

AGD---" I believe Caudle Fusion has much to do with the advancement of technology in allowing the 'Cocker to far out range an Automag, don't you"?

newbidoobie---"cockers suck dude"!

We instead will read a response from the likes of Bill Mills, or Miscue among other notable members, reaffirming the fact that no gun out-ranges another and this is the physics to prove it, ya nutty bone hunter.

I am slowly warming to the Fight Club idea, and it will be awhile until I can fully accept it, but until then I will watch Tom's new toy develope.

I know perfectly well that you can make the forum so that only registered users can access the page. I've intalled UBB more times than i can count, and I've written better board systems myself.

That fact that you would even bring that up solidifies my point even more. I know its all about what Tom wants. I can understand why he wants a forum that eliminates the rif-raf from it. What I hope he understands is that a great many people are going to be upset that they have been left behind.

The correct method of making this forum not seem like an elitest forum is not to tell people it isn't. I've got eyes, I've got a mind, I know whats elitest and whats not, I don't need you to explain it to me.

This forum was for everyone, now its not. The biggest noob and the president of the company were equals, now they arn't.

I'm done caring, which is sad, becuase this used to be something I cared about. I've checked these boards religiously for over 15 months now. If people refuse to see past their own nose, theres no way i can help them.

I'm sorry you see it that way. Can you not see it as a way or as an incentive for people to post better and think harder about things in an effort to become a member? Maybe people will stop posting 'ups' and the quality of the whole board will go up.

I have no intention of just posting there. I intend to post here also (although I admit I'm one of webby's bad guys who doesn't look into the tech forum much...

I'm hoping it will be an incentive for people to pay more attention in their physics classes... to learn the maths behind the theories... and to think with an open mind. If doing this gets just a couple of people to think harder about their world then it's a great thing and in my mind makes up for those that don't feel they are part of it... if it helps people find knowledge that would otherwise have been lost on the board it's a good thing.

The only bad thing is that some will be jealous. If that is an incentive for them to be upset that is about their charachter. Jealousy is something we all have to be able to deal with in real life. If it is an incentive for them to learn then that is also about their charachter, and those are the people that this will help.

It is a resource and incentive not a reason for jealousy.

I feel the same way about my peers. I strive to test my mind and to push my limits. I don't sit and get upset at not being able to do it or be part of it, or if someone knows more about something than me. I work hard to become part of it, if I want to be. Knowledge is a valuable thing and the more people can get to easily the better.

I've been told many things were impossible in my life, when I hear that I like to try and prove those people wrong. If I wasn't part of FC and wanted to be, I would be trying to think of new interesting posts and information so I could get in. That is, I think, a very good thing for these boards, as those posts will be here in the main forum!

I've been posting on the net for years, I do it mainly to give help and to try and stop the spread of hype and BS which I feel ruins our sport. I don't often start threads, just respond to them. In nearly two years of posting on PBC I think I had a total of 500ish posts, I don't post for count, I post to help and to debate. If I feel there is somewhere my information can help someone else then to me it's a good thing. If someone see's something there that inspires them to ask more questions here then it's done it's job also. Posts are more likely to stay visible for a longer time there so that may well happen.

I do understand your point. I hope you can see mine and what this forum might achieve, or mean to some people.

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:I can understand why industry people want their own forum. You all understand this stuff, and you are paid to do it.</font>

I'm not in this industry, although I do have aspirations to be, I am not at the moment. I don't get paid to be involved in paintball. In fact it has cost me a small fortune.

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:I don't. I don't have time to. I have to concentrate my time on making enough money to stay alive and maybe have enough left to play paintball once that month.</font>

I don't even get to play once a month. But I think paintball every day. It's my hobby and distraction from work

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:If its an elitest club, then lets be out with it. Tell us that our input is not wanted and lets quit beating around the bush. Tell us we arn't wanted, and not this bit about it being good for all. </font>

The requirements to be part of the FC are open. You know what is required. If/When you meet the requirments you will be a member. Is college an elitis institution because you need to meet certain capabilities/criteria...? is a job an elitist club because you need to have certain qualifications/capabilities... It's only elitist if you don't put the effort into becoming a member/getting the job or getting into college. In each of these cases you are judged by others and your peers. That's not elitisim in my mind.

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:If you want your club, have it, but don't feed us BS and tell us its chocolate pudding.</font>

You've been told why it is there and what potential benefits could come from it. If you wish to see it as something else that is your choice. Nobody can tell you what to think, but they can help you to learn... That's what it is about for me. The ability to learn for myself and to help others to learn.

Hey, I couldn't get on the highschool football team because I'm a scrawny twerp... not because the coach was an elitist. I can't run fast, I can't throw, I can't catch, I can't kick the ball, and the opposing front line could just look at me and I'd fall over and hurt myself.

But if I really wanted to... and I worked hard at it, maybe I could have made the team. But regardless of all of this, I still have a lot of fun watching the game.

That was just a simple quetion. What`s fight club. I think i got enough answer for now.
I have to say that i am very sad about what s going on here. That is realy tearing us apart.
Anyway, i use to like this forum, i am not a posting maniac, my english is not good enough for that, but i use to come here 10 times a day to read every post, but this thing is going to far.
For one thing Tom you were right, you`ve choosen the right name "Fight" club...

I agree with Rooster. This is ridiculous. Not only did you insult my intelligence, not only do I feel excluded and alienated from the "great minds" of AO, but you have also spit in my face. Do you call this a family? The only word to describe this family is disfunctional.

manike, unless im mistaken, and i often am, you are the guy who writes for warpig about European events. If writing regularly for the biggest paintball information site on the internet isn't being in the industry, i don't know what is.

This whole fight club thing came about and it was billed as a great thing for the family. All the brains would be in one place, and the information would leak down to the masses. When people started saying "hey, i could see this cuasing a massive rift." They were ignored. They are still being ignored.

The criteria is not open, it is completely subjective. When you apply for a job you have a punch sheet of what you have to have to get the job. If they hire someone with less and you were otherwise the same, its discrimination. You know the requirements to get into college. Where do the fight club rules say it takes a 600 on the verbal portion of the fight club enterance exam?

Yes, you are right its just like the football team. Its just like high level paintball teams, its just like elite country clubs where you get asked to join. Which is elitest.

Like I said, if you want an elitest club, have it. I want no part of it, and i never did, that's not what this is about. What this is about is that you want your club, you won't admit its elitest, and you arn't willing to accept the idea it very well could harm the community (which i personally beleive it will).