I don't think they are hiding, I just think they don't really know what they or each other are really supposed to be doing out there. That's genuinely what it seems like at times. They're playing like individuals rather than as a team for much of the time. I'd say that's true in terms of defending as well as attacking, actually.

The atmosphere was no different to how it's been in the past at UP. We started ok and the atmosphere was ok, until we slowly turned to shit with nothing to cheer about. Then the groans and booing crept in as things gradually got more baffling.

We've had rounds of 'don't know what you're doing' aimed at Curbishley, and both he and Allardyce got booed after wins.

Sadly we lack any style to cheer on and people are clearly losing hope in seeing us turn it around. I know we missed out on Carvalho, but I can't see that he'd have made much of a difference in all honesty.

The Arthur and Cresswell paring on the left tooks good. Arthur can play LM. Obviously no place for Ayew. Rice or Obiang for Noble in CM. Sakho and Carroll upfront and Hernandez as impact sub like at Man U.

Atmosphere improves when your team plays exciting football whether it be in the piss-pot or any other stadia, the few attacks we had yesterday did have the crowd raising the atmosphere but you can't expect anybody to create noise with the dross that was dished up yestyerday.

The atmosphere in stadia these days is definitely not what it was in yesteryear. And it seems to be the case whatever the stadium. During the week at times that good example of an old fashioned football venue, Goodson Park, was as quiet as a local library for European match.

Don't disagree, hermit, but what scorchio describes below is players hiding. That's to do with players hiding. If you want to make excuses for them hiding - and personally i dont - that has more to do with the hideous atmosphere they're playing in than anything else.

Stewie, there's definitely a case for expecting professional players to make the right decisions on the pitch, at the same time, you can't absolve the manager of all responsibility for how a team plays. Teams that pass and move, find space and pass into the right space seem to do it as a result of the coaching they receive. That's why the teams that play like that are managed by people whose previous teams play in the same way.

There's no way of knowing for sure, but it looks to me like our players aren't clear about what they should be doing. That's a fault of the coach. The problem with trying to absolve Bilic of any responsibility is that you damn him as worse than useless. If he can't influence the team at all, he really is shit.

"Our players jog around not really finding space and helping the man on the ball. As a result we go backward.

This is an organisational and tactical issue."

Not for me. Even if you play Sunday league level, don't train ever and just rock up hungover on a Sunday, you know that when a teammate has possession you try to find space and make yourself available.

Far too many excuses made for players in the modern game. They are paid tens of thousands of pounds per week, millions a year, and they can't move off the ball or find space because of tactics? Madness

We were finishing mid table under Allardyce when we first got promoted and have improved our squad since then, which helped us get 7th in Bilic's first season. Last year's recruitment was a mess, but we still finished 11th, despite the common handicap of a mass of injuries.

Our squad is full of Internationals and more than capable of getting around 50 points, but it has to be playing consistently to our potential, which it quite clearly isn't. You can blame that on anything you want, but to say our squad isn't as good as West Brom, Stoke, Newcastle and Southampton's is total bollocks.

While we are not world beaters, I think Bilic should be getting more out of the players he has at his disposal. It seems clear to me we have no solid attacking game plan. There's never any urgency and the movement is shocking. Just the difference between us and Swansea moving the ball was clear. They move when not in possession and give options. Our players jog around not really finding space and helping the man on the ball. As a result we go backward.

This is an organisational and tactical issue. Unless the players are downright ignoring what they are told- but why would they?

Defensively we sit too deep. Swansea were pressing far higher up than us. We conceded too much territory to them where they kept us in our own half. I wonder if that's to counter how woeful we are defensively when we press on and average teams seem to be able to cut right through us with a few quick passes and a bit of movement.

We just seem to be a step too slow and too ponderous all over the pitch.

In terms of what we might do this season, I think the patterns are already pretty obvious. You do occasionally get teams that change their fortunes massively mid-season but not that often. We are 19th in goals conceded, joint 18th on goal difference, we are not a good side at all and we will pretty clearly struggle.

What has happened is that we've had two of our easiest fixtures of the season and won them both - that suggests that like last season there's enough at the club to scrape wins in the key games which will probably turn out to be six-pointers. Palace played Swansea at home and lost - that's the difference! So I still back us to survive, and maybe we can build on that and do somewhat better. But not much has to go wrong for us not to - it's a dangerous place to be. Any complacency about our inherent 'quality' is completely misplaced imo.

I don't disagree with you but the opportunity was and maybe still is there for this club to actually build towards a better platform for success. We wouldn't have to be beholden to a mercenary star name if we improved the standards at the club across the board. That is ultimately the major failure of this era - all the opportunity was/is there and it has been squandered so far! As supporters we have every right to be livid about that.