I've owned, flown, enjoyed, and destroyed a couple of ARFs. The ones I got were all built well enough - in every case, their demise was due to pilot error, not structural failure. One one aircraft, I did some 'beefing up' of the landing gear mount (but maybe the original design would have been acceptable if all my landings were perfect).
Of course, with an ARF, you usually can't see inside to inspect spar joints, etc. No simple answer here to the issue raised by the O.P.
Ultimately, the companies supplying the ARFs will have to control quality issues - too many problems, and their customers will eventually disappear. Seems like they should do some careful inspections (maybe a tear-down), and some serious test-flying of the products prior to shipping to customers.

It's too bad you have to go to China to have things made these days. There was a time that things like this could be made right here in America. It just costs too much now.

No, not really. The problem is that their labor is $1.00 per hour average in the industrialized cities. So even if I do not pay benefits, no insurance, no taxes, nothing, still nobody wants to work for $1.00 per hour... (and under the table) Landscaping work pays better...

OK I'm impressed. There is a package waiting at my door for when I get home. They shipped it last night, it arrived this morning. I have ordered from Tower which is under 100 miles from me and never had this kind of service.

Looks like my next kit is going to be the SIG Citabia. I'll order it right from them.

ARFs are definitely part of the RC PASSTIME...... but it's pretty lame to consider whipping out your credit card so that you will have something to fly the day after tomorrow a ''hobby''....

My other hobby is photography. I just purchased a new lens not long ago. Should I have built the lens myself? I think, maybe not.

Gerry

That's just a superb analogy.
If you want to consider flying ARFs your hobby that's your business.
There are folks who consider watching TV and drinking expensive beer a hobby as well, really.
My commentary is aimed at how what some folks consider their "hobby" nowadays would have been considered nothing more than a "pass time" before the Happy Meal Generation came along.

ARFs are definitely part of the RC PASSTIME...... but it's pretty lame to consider whipping out your credit card so that you will have something to fly the day after tomorrow a ''hobby''....

My other hobby is photography. I just purchased a new lens not long ago. Should I have built the lens myself? I think, maybe not.

Gerry

That's just a superb analogy.
If you want to consider flying ARFs your hobby that's your business.
There are folks who consider watching TV and drinking expensive beer a hobby as well, really.
My commentary is aimed at how what some folks consider their ''hobby'' nowadays would have been considered nothing more than a ''pass time'' before the Happy Meal Generation came along.

This reminds me of all the Heathkit stuff... and the choppers that had to be carefully assembled before crashing, and the cars that.... I think the generation before the Happy Meal generation came along would be happy to have what we have.

SL5406 in post 22 you asked for responses from any satisfied arf buyers. I have ARFS form Great Planes, Top-Flight, Hangar 9, Blackhorse, and Seagull. All have been flown many times and have proved to be fine planes. Have I changed hardware and added glue to some, YES. But for the most part all have been a good value. The worst was one of the first ones from Hangar 9, an electric Funtana. It is still around and flies better than ever after some major redesign to the engine box and gear support. They range in size from small electrics to 1/4 scale warbirds. and seem to be getting better and better. Now the electric foam planes, both indoor micros and the larger outdoor ones are even cheaper to buy and fly great. Years ago I built many planes from kits and a couple scratch builds but am not a true scale model builder. Some say because I fly mostly ARFS that I am not a modeler. So be it. They can define modeler to be whatever makes them feel better about themselves, I don't care. I love to fly RC planes of any kind and source of origin, I take pride in making them airworthy, making changes to improve ease of maintenance, and changes to improve how they fly. They can grouse about ARFS not being modeling all they want and say I am not in THEIR hobby, but it is still my hobby. Some people collect odd things as a hobby but I don't feel a need to critisize or belittle them. If they are having fun good for them.

I also bought a 60 sized arf and even though I already learned my lesson in the past about poor construction in arfs, and took steps to beef up all of the problem areas, it still bit me in the arss. I was flying at my local flying field, first flight of the day, less than half throttle, when the elevator tore off, taking with it the rudder. With absolutely no control, all I could do was watch it drill right into the trunk of some ones car. One of the very first things that I did when i first put it together was to put more ca on all of the hinges. The way I see it now, if I don't have any planes in good flying condition, well then I guess I'm not flying. No more going to my LHS and buying quick building arfs just to have something to fly. Not worth it. I'll stick to building myself, and knowing that the airframe can handle any thing that I throw at it. Lesson learned, ( again ).

Sig said it was probably a Monday build! In any case, SIG took care of me. In fact, to my surprise it is on the truck for delivery, TODAY! It shipped last night. Like you said, if it fails in flight, and I built it, my bad. When I wrecked my Kadet on a landing when the wind caught the wing and flipped it because I came in too slow, my bad. When a wing comes off 200' in the air because of lack of glue on a plane I didn't build, well, not my bad, and that irked me. I lost trust in these that someone else built. I do have an extra 52 four stroke laying around, and I just might grab a 4*40 arf, but I will strip the covering off and make damned sure everything that should be glued has glue.

I stopped building from kits when the quality of the material provided became unuseable. ARFs from China are not perfect but they allowed the average modeler to enjoy areas of this hobby that were not obtainable. I'm refering too scale models of various sizes and interest. Your experience is not the first and will not be the last however the only thing that will detere the modeler from buying an ARF will be the price.

Having to plans build or scratch build has not stopped me from building scale models. You just need to have the want to. We have resurrected the Pica Waco YMF/UMF. You can cut your own kit with the templates that we supplied to the AMA plans department.

.... I think the generation before the Happy Meal generation came along would be happy to have what we have.

What do we have? Choice, that is what:-)

Gerry

Depends on how far back you want to look. I can still remember the excitement that went along with having new, odd, different, innovative, stupid, beautiful, ugly, ingenious, etc. homebrewed planes show up at the club field quite often...especially at the beginning of a new flying season.
Those days are all but gone....
The "line" I hear most that never fails to make me smile and has been said over and over 100s of times by the guys who spend 20+ hours per week either watching TV or surfing the internet....and that "line" is, "I'm WAY too busy to build my own planes"..............

Wow I did not intend this to be an ARF bashing thread, just my displeasure of an ARF turning my fun time into despair.

However, when I arrived home, sure enough there was the kit waiting for me with 4 rolls of covering included. The color is right about the same as the blue I used on my Kadet, so I'm happy. Already have the mods done in my head plans unrolled and weighted so they lay flat, and the parts needed already set aside. I picked up a set of replacement gears for the S3010 servo that got stripped, and hoping I can repair the cable on the ignition module, and realign the crank bearings on the DLE, and I will be all set. Going to put the included motor mount in my parts box, and use the Dubro iso mount that I originally got for the DLE its already tapped for it. I didn't use it on the 4* since the mount that it came with was already setup on the firewall and worked just fine. Need to see if I have some 5/32 plywood to make a new joiner so I can reduce the Dihedral down to 1" , which is about 3* on the center ribs.

Going to make a hatch on the foredeck so I can access the ignition module and secure the battery packs. The fuel tank will go over the CG, and on the ARF I needed a lot of nose weight, so moving both battery packs to the nose should help if this one balances out the same. The kit uses a pushrod for the rudder, going to use a pull pull system instead, and put the elevator servo in the tail like it is on the ARF. Going to shrink the wing a bay or two so it fits the bed of my truck, and instead of the flat wing tips, going to carve out rounded tips.

.... I think the generation before the Happy Meal generation came along would be happy to have what we have.

What do we have? Choice, that is what:-)

Gerry

Depends on how far back you want to look. I can still remember the excitement that went along with having new, odd, different, innovative, stupid, beautiful, ugly, ingenious, etc. homebrewed planes show up at the club field quite often...especially at the beginning of a new flying season.
Those days are all but gone....
The ''line'' I hear most that never fails to make me smile and has been said over and over 100s of times by the guys who spend 20+ hours per week either watching TV or surfing the internet....and that ''line'' is, ''I'm WAY too busy to build my own planes''..............

I remember building about 4 models per year. But I only worked 40 hours per week. Now I own my company, and 40 hours work sounds like retirement:-) Of course, I love what I do for a living!

Decades ago, I had people walk up and tell me after a maiden: when you decide to sell it call me. Well, everybody knew I would sell the model one year down the road. Heck I sold a D-9 (Pica Kit) before maiden, because I could no say no to the offer. But at the time you could no get an ARF.

Homebrew models I only knew one member that would take some drawings and end up with a 1/4 scale model in 3/4 weeks. That is still cool in my book. Dead breead I guess... He had a 4 car garage packed with 1/4 scale models. Unfortunately he passed away long time ago. Now, in our club, we have some guys that still build (like I do sometimes) but they build regular kits, nothing either new or different. And their covering is OK, but not colorful like the arfs... Some scale guys are still out there. We have a couo=ple big 1/4 scale warbird meets every summer.

I like to build WWI models but, I have a Fokker DVIII waiting to be finished, and a Morane 1/3 scale waiting to be re-done (it is over 20 years old). What I like of this hobby, and I have flown RC for over 40 years nonstop. (Meaning I always flew, but not every weekend) is that there is something for everyone. From foamies to 20K jet kits, to WW!, to WW!! to sport models, retracts, non-retracts, taildraggers, conventional LG. There is no right or wrong, bettrer or worst way to do this. Jus arrogant people that think what they do is the best way to do things or the modt "fun" way to do things.

I do not have a reason to miss days gone by, except for the fact that we were younger:-)

My models are better, they fly better, same for the radio, power plant, the car I use to go to the field, etc... Life changes, challenges change, and like it or not, we change. Our jobs change, our obligations change, and if we do not adapt, we loose out on something.

My 2 cents:-) If you are not having fun with this hobby, you are doing something wrong.

Just like with kits, ARFs can be good, bad, built well, built abysmally. We buy ARFs when we don't have the time to build up from a kit. When we pay somebody to build our kit, we buy an ARF.

I'm known for opening up the belly and the wings on my ARFs, to make sure they're well-built. If you want to buy an ARF and just bolt the gear to it and go fly it, you get what you've asked for. It's our own responsibility to inspect a plane that we're going to be powering and putting into the air, for safety, if for no other reason.

I've had magnificent ARFs; well-built birds that flew like poop. I've had scrubby ones that flew great. Some are always better than others, but you increase your odds of a long life by scrutinizing and reinforcing wherever it might be needed.

ARFs aren't evil, guys. Some companies make them better than others, and SIG has new owners who are dealing with new vendors and the associated growing pains.

Some ARFs are magnificent, and super-strong and light, like Extreme Flight and RC Guys, and several others.

Top of the line or not, I always check the most vulnerable points. It's easy enough, it takes a few hours, some glue, and sometimes a roll of covering. It STILL saves me time, and I have the piece of mind of knowing I (probably) won't be posting one of these posts. I'm puzzled when I read posts saying, "I should've built it myself from a kit."

Because it's an ARF, you think you shouldn't be thorough? That's kind of a cop-out, kids. Like cursing a tire when it blows, and you knew for a MONTH now you should've checked the air pressure in that one (We've all done something like it, you know what I mean.). You cuss it, kick it, and you know the whole time you're the culprit. It wasn't going to put air in itself, was it, now?

Likewise, any ARF can be checked over and spruced up by any diligent builder/pilot. It's not like those joints that came to you light on glue are going to beef themselves up, are they, now?

I keep a few small bottles of Sig-Bond aliphatic resin around. When I do the reinforcements, I often just run the seams with that, and give it a day or two to dry. Usually makes all the difference in the world.

Where this wing gave way, in order to check it out would require removing all the balsa sheeting on the wing. Do you do that on your ARF when you get it? I did remove the covering and ran glue everywhere I could reach, then recovered it, but a lot good it did since it broke where I had no access without tearing into the wing. I even ran CA down the spar in the box where I could. Didnt help because the plywood didnt touch the spars.

I bought a GP geebee r2 once, they were NOTORIOUS for poor gear mounting in the wings. I made some removable access panels in the wings, built up the gear supports (they needed it) and screwed the access lids back on...

it can be done with a nice finish, and it does eliminate some CURIOSITY about whats inside and hidden.

I've done it before on ARFs. I ALWAYS do it. Somewhere in these threads you'll find my posts where I tested my wings on a pre-built Waco bipe I'd just bought, opened them up, and did exactly that, and then sealed it back up.

The Waco was covered in fabric and paint, not something easy like film. They had not installed any sheer webbing, and the spars were not glued into the center section at all. I had to cut in, install all the sheer webbing, secure the spars properly, and close it again, and then repair the paint.

ARFs are just kits with much less to do on them. How often do we change something on an ARF, because we don't like how it looks or the quality isn't what it should be? When the quality of workmanship isn't what it should be, what do we change then? It's the same thing.

ARFs get better and better, but it always pays to be cautious. I imagine that Sig has their hands full if some of the ARF wings are failing. Typical ARF workmanship these days is amazingly good, and we all want that when we buy one. Ask any company with a reputation for selling good ones, and they'll tell you how many bad building companies in Asia (or wherever) they went through to find the really good ones.

I'd rather work MORE on a model when I first get it, than have to build it three times, even if the company WILL replace it. Just seems to make sense.

ARFs certainly have their place. Am I the only one here that likes them? They fit a perfect need for me. I would not be flying if not for them. I have never built and not because I don't want to, but because I don't have time to. I work a lot of hours and ARFs grant me an opportunity I would not have. I am one of those weekend warriors that likes flying and ARFs are the ticket.

Out of all the ARFs I have bought, one was a total disappointment. Most of them have required some small odds and ends whether it be re-inforcement or straightening a crooked hole, etc. The one that was a total disappointment was the PHP Edge 540T. The plane has some solid structural build, but the builders must have been drunk.

The PHP Edge had the worst workmanship I have ever seen on anything. Had no less than three holes drilled for the aileron hinges and none of them would work and they were not even covered up! Overall about 80 percent of the plane had sloppy build issues. I went over it and managed to turn it into a decent plane, however I could not put total confidence in it due to what I know about the build and quality of the plane.

I don't plan to be a return PHP customer that is for sure. I don't foresee ever buying anything from them again. They lost a customer because of such a shoddy built plane. The only way I would buy one is if it was such a steal it would be stupid not to.

The rest of my ARF planes have been really decent. I have had good AW, GP, H9, SIG, and GW planes. Hardware is something that you have to watch out for. Some manufacturers fail to consider how much we have to put into hardware when they send crappy hardware along in their ARFs.

I have two GP planes and they have amazed me with their quality. They were built very well. As a matter of fact they were built as well as planes costing 100-150 more. I compared a similar size GP plane with an AW plane costing around 100 more and the GP plane was built every bit as good as the AW!

Although not a structural marvel and a little cheaply built, one of my favorite planes is a 30cc GW 300LP. It flies well and I have a blast flying it. For around 300 dollars I just could not expect much more. Now if I pay 500 up for a 30cc plane I do expect better quality and if not, I would be on the phone with whom I purchased it from and expecting support.

1. From what I'm gathering a scratch built plane has never had a structural failure or crashed? (I said NEVER - not in comparison to an ARF)

2. I have 30 ARF planes and have never had an issue with the construction other than the typical gear blocks being weak. (show me any plane that can stand up to my "not so perfect" landings)

3. Doesn't it take months to build a kit? Are we talking 10, 12, 20 hours a week/weekend sitting in ones basement/garage gluing sticks together? Even at 4 weeks, 10, 20, 40 hours a week (VERY conservative time frame build allowance) that's 40, 48, 80 hours of lost flying time? 80 hours is 10 weekends ( 2 and a 1/2 MONTHS) of enjoying being in the air!

4. I encourage as many of you as I can to scratch build. Man, that leaves me so much more time and convenience to actually fly. Nothing wrong with all of you staying at home in those basements / garages for sure. Ya'll have fun now, hear?

I had a SIG 4*120 ARF, after a few flights I noticed the wings flapping, and found that the spars were loose inside the wings, and stripped the covering off, squeezed them in position and reglued them all, using CA and Titebond, then recovered them. They appeared to be sturdy with no more flex in them, so today I flew it. Had it up for 15 minutes, gentle turns, no hotdogging, a few loops some rolls mostly half throttle flying, landed, checked the wings and they still appeared to be tight, no flex detected. I put my Kadet up for a test flight after doing the repairs fom when I had a mishap with a strong cross wind that took me by surprise that flipped it on landing and broke it in half. It flew great, but with the Magnum on it instead of the OS as I couldnt find a new motor mount that matched the old one, but the Magnum happened to be a perfect fit. It flies a little quicker with the OS, but the Magnum is still new, so give it some time.

Anyhow, after I was done with the Kadet, and very relieved it still flies well, and lands well, I restarted my 4* and took off, flying around, and had really relaxed with it and was finally comfortable with the plane where I can relax and enjoy it, and about 12 minutes into the flight, doing large loops, some rols, and few stall turns, hammer heads, etc, mostly at half throttle, and about a minute before I was planning to land, the right wing snapped off, I had just pulled up to start a loop when it went Craks, and I saw it flutter off, and the plane start its death spiral. It was done for I had no control over it, so I killed the ignition and spotted where it went into the corn field. I packed everything up and went searching. I am definately getting lost plane alarms for my planes, what a PITA. I eventually found it right about where I thought it would be, but have not found the right wing, got dark so will go looking for it tomorrow, and hopefully get it before tehy harvest the corn and hope the servo is still good. The one in the left wing appears to have been stripped, so verdict still out on that, but the rest of the gear looks OK, the ignition module got lost somewhere on the walk back through the corn field. The only part still in OK shape is the tail, but its pretty much a lost cause.

This will be my last ARF, after this I just dont trust something that I didn't build. My Kadet has been thrown around the sky much harder than I did the 4*, and has been smacked into things a few times, and not once did I ever have to worry if the wing would snap off. The construction on the ARF is not very good, the spar does not go all the way to the center, but ends at a plywood box that the aluminum joiner slides into. It looks like that is exactly where the wing snapped off. I wont know for sure until I find the wing. Now heres the weird thing, the wing that had the most cracks in it and needed the most repairs was not the wing that snapped off. The broken one just needed some reglueing at all the joints, and looked like it was fine.

I really liked flying the 4*, but after this I dont know if I will build another one, or something else, but it wont be an ARF, it will be one I build that I know wont break apart under mild aerobatics. It had a couple minor dings hitting corn stalks, once on take off and once on landing, but at very slow speeds, the first one cracked the leading edge at the last rib, the second one knocked the tail wheel off, but the wing was fine. Neither of those should have caused any damage to the spars, at least they would not have done so on my Kadet, but in any case, I am not too thrilled with this.

Long story short ...
I contacted an ARF company a long time ago about their planes falling apart when flying. Their comment was, "Oh? You actually tried to fly the plane? You actually thought these planes were built with the intention of being able to fly?"

1. From what I'm gathering a scratch built plane has never had a structural failure or crashed? (I said NEVER - not in comparison to an ARF)

2. I have 30 ARF planes and have never had an issue with the construction other than the typical gear blocks being weak. (show me any plane that can stand up to my ''not so perfect'' landings)

3. Doesn't it take months to build a kit? Are we talking 10, 12, 20 hours a week/weekend sitting in ones basement/garage gluing sticks together? Even at 4 weeks, 10, 20, 40 hours a week (VERY conservative time frame build allowance) that's 40, 48, 80 hours of lost flying time? 80 hours is 10 weekends ( 2 and a 1/2 MONTHS) of enjoying being in the air!

4. I encourage as many of you as I can to scratch build. Man, that leaves me so much more time and convenience to actually fly. Nothing wrong with all of you staying at home in those basements / garages for sure. Ya'll have fun now, hear?

And you keep crashing your brand new ARF every other weekend while spending the other weekends putting each new ARF together. All the while spending another $150+ every other weekend for a new ARF, and possibly more money to replace the broken servos, receivers, and engines from the previously crashed ARF.

Funny, I haven't crashed an ARF plane in ages. Am I flying to slow for you Airplanes400? I buy quality ARF's (Great Planes, Hangar 9, etc) and stay away from most of the "too good to be true" models. You can childishly try to insult ARF's but unfortunately you failed.
They fly just as good as a scratch built and most of the times look 10X better. Sorry, you lose.

It's all a matter of opinion and every one is entitled to one. Just because one guy had a little bad luck doesn't mean every one will. Trying to fly 3D maneuvers with a high wing trainer just might rip the wing off. Every situation is different. I've had mostly good luck with arfs with the exception of one. I am mainly a kit builder, but if it weren't for arfs, I wouldn't get to fly half of the time. You get what you pay for too. A 60 sized arf for under $100 really can't be too good. Any way, the rafters will keep arf fin, and the builders will keep building. Happy landings.

sorry for your bad experience .If I were in your shoes I would probably be even more upset.I am a avid rc'er since 1971 and the earlier attempts with ARF"S were aweful.back then lanier made really bad stuff.and likely there's still alot of bad stuff and sadly the price of making good kits has gone way up and the interest in building has dissappeared for many.We had this very conversation at our field the otherday and looking down the flightline I commented that probably none of the members ever or even knew how to build and sadly I was almost 100 percent right.but reflecting on that I wondered is that really bad.??probably not!I am glad Sig and its new owners made good on their product.I have built many sig kits and the quality of their own stuff was and is great.
You get what pay for.There are some really good arf's on the market and while I am a passionate builder I do own a couple arf's and enjoy them fully.I still get excited when I maiden a new plane that I built .I can barely nail two boards together but for whatever reason building a rc model from balsa just goes together so nice and if I screw it up (and I have) its just balsa and I re do it again only better.and those who say there aren't any kits around are partially right but with some digging kits are layin g around the internet.I can sctrach build somewhat if need be but laser cut kits are relatively straight foward.yeah time consuming but thats quality time for me.

bottom line dont be too discouraged about arf's .just find the right one.bear in mind arf's are the pre-dominant player and just have fun.don't let one experience make you bitter.