Let's try to explain some phenomena

I thought it would be cool to stimulate discussion about everyday supplement phenomena that we kind of just "accept" without looking too deeply into them.

For instance,

How come I can consume a caffeine tab under what are perceptibly identical conditions and have a different response to each tab?

or

Why do I get the BA tingles some times, but not other times, even if taken fasted both times?

But I'll start. The one that's on my mind is due to the fact that I'm pulling an all-nighter with two scoops of Craze (original batch if it means anything) and my interest was piqued by my extreme fluid consumption. I brought a 1 L bottle with me and have now filled it up and consumed it 3 times, and it's only been 1.5 hours since taking Craze. It seems every time I take Craze, I get some insatiable thirst.

So question #1: What is it in Craze that causes polydipsia?

My gut tells me this can't be physiological (osmolarity shifts across cell membranes) but rather neurological. The hypothalamus mediates thirst, and it's well-known that anti-cholinergics can cause excessive thirst. This would be in line with PA's postulation a while back that dendramine is an anti-cholinergic. AND it would also explain the blurry vision that users, including myself, notice as well (cycloplegia). What are your thoughts? Depending on the mechanism of anti-cholinergic activity, would co-administration of Focus XT be advisable to reduce these side effects? Anecdotally, the answer is yes (solo ALCAR seems to aid the vision issue too). But I want your thoughts!

And more importantly, does anyone else have curious phenomena they'd like to share and mentally masturbate about?

http://pescience.com/
http://selectprotein.com/
The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES

I thought it would be cool to stimulate discussion about everyday supplement phenomena that we kind of just "accept" without looking too deeply into them.

For instance,

How come I can consume a caffeine tab under what are perceptibly identical conditions and have a different response to each tab?

or

Why do I get the BA tingles some times, but not other times, even if taken fasted both times?

But I'll start. The one that's on my mind is due to the fact that I'm pulling an all-nighter with two scoops of Craze (original batch if it means anything) and my interest was piqued by my extreme fluid consumption. I brought a 1 L bottle with me and have now filled it up and consumed it 3 times, and it's only been 1.5 hours since taking Craze. It seems every time I take Craze, I get some insatiable thirst.

So question #1: What is it in Craze that causes polydipsia?

My gut tells me this can't be physiological (osmolarity shifts across cell membranes) but rather neurological. The hypothalamus mediates thirst, and it's well-known that anti-cholinergics can cause excessive thirst. This would be in line with PA's postulation a while back that dendramine is an anti-cholinergic. AND it would also explain the blurry vision that users, including myself, notice as well (cycloplegia). What are your thoughts? Depending on the mechanism of anti-cholinergic activity, would co-administration of Focus XT be advisable to reduce these side effects? Anecdotally, the answer is yes (solo ALCAR seems to aid the vision issue too). But I want your thoughts!

And more importantly, does anyone else have curious phenomena they'd like to share and mentally masturbate about?

Without turning this into another Craze thread, perhaps sending a sample off to a lab to get it analysed for dendamine would be advisable. On a side note, i hope that you're increasing sodium intake with the extra fluids. Especially with 3L in your system in a 1.5hr period (and I assume that your not dissapating heat through exercise so no sweat loss is occuring?). I wouldnt even drink this much unless doing long-duration, high intensity work in the heat . Hyponaetremia can on rare occasions be life-threatening as the body's serum sodium level is diluted to an extent that seizures and cardiac arrest can occur (kidneys cant handle the volume of water etc.)

Back to your issue, perhaps an intake of Zinc would help combat the polydipsia as it helps the body to absorb water and retain sodium? Might help control the excessive thrist unless it is a hypothalamus issue and the body simply cannot register that fluid levels are fine.

On another note, caffeine (which promotes acetylcholine activty might counteract the anti-cholinergic (which reduces acetylcholine activity) and it may just be a case on when to dose caffiene to counteract the anti-cholinergic.

I thought it would be cool to stimulate discussion about everyday supplement phenomena that we kind of just "accept" without looking too deeply into them.

For instance,

How come I can consume a caffeine tab under what are perceptibly identical conditions and have a different response to each tab?

or

Why do I get the BA tingles some times, but not other times, even if taken fasted both times?

But I'll start. The one that's on my mind is due to the fact that I'm pulling an all-nighter with two scoops of Craze (original batch if it means anything) and my interest was piqued by my extreme fluid consumption. I brought a 1 L bottle with me and have now filled it up and consumed it 3 times, and it's only been 1.5 hours since taking Craze. It seems every time I take Craze, I get some insatiable thirst.

So question #1: What is it in Craze that causes polydipsia?

My gut tells me this can't be physiological (osmolarity shifts across cell membranes) but rather neurological. The hypothalamus mediates thirst, and it's well-known that anti-cholinergics can cause excessive thirst. This would be in line with PA's postulation a while back that dendramine is an anti-cholinergic. AND it would also explain the blurry vision that users, including myself, notice as well (cycloplegia). What are your thoughts? Depending on the mechanism of anti-cholinergic activity, would co-administration of Focus XT be advisable to reduce these side effects? Anecdotally, the answer is yes (solo ALCAR seems to aid the vision issue too). But I want your thoughts!

And more importantly, does anyone else have curious phenomena they'd like to share and mentally masturbate about?

The two bold parts I'm curious about.

Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.ANABOLIC MINDS SITE REP

I definitely don't want this thread to be about Craze, that's just the supplement I happen to have ingested tonight.

I'm aware of hyponatremia but 3L in 1.5 hours won't get me close to there unless I had a pre-existing condition.

Zinc would indeed help, but I'm not really worried about the thirst. This happens every time. I'm more curious as to the cause of the phenomenon. Agreed on the caffeine.

I now wonder how galantamine would interact with Craze...hmmmm

Yeah for sure, but without knowing how much other fluid you've had before its beter to mention it that to not . Curious, have you tried the 'new' batches of craze? if so, did the excessive thirst occur then? Interesting to see, even if only anecdotally if their are differences in the two; if that is the case, then perhaps it is the added compound :speculation:

I just suggested Zinc to help mitigate the thirst; especially if it was a problem. Wouldnt be sure what else would be the cause of the issue just from the ingredients list of craze.
Interesting with the Galantamine + caffeine combo. Both inhibit acetylcholinesterase.. assuming there was an anti-cholingeric to begin with; even if there wasnt, when used before studying, the inhibition of acetylcholinesterase could be beneficial (perhaps enhance short term memory?).

Just a thought, would the ability to inhibit acetylcholinesterase aid in lipolysis? then perhaps Galantamine + caffiene would be a good combo for fat loss?

Different times of the day, different foods eaten throughout the day, different levels of certain hormones, state of mind, amount of sleep etc. all play into how everything affects us. There are so many different variables that one wouldn't think to consider. Even if you did everything the same every single day, hormone levels would still be different and compounds would affect us differently. Also, it depends on what kind of tolerance you've developed to certain compounds: whether your body has down-regulated receptors (pharmacodynamic tolerance) or be from induction of certain enzymes (pharmacokinetic tolerance). Basically, your body wants to stay the same and wants anything put inside of us to affect us as little as possible and our bodies learn to do it more effectively over time (such as tolerance to alcohol), but different situations inside your body control how well the body can resist effects.

here is a phenomena. say i go to bed at 9pm. weighing 217.2. wake up the next morning. immediately get on the scale in the exact same boxers as the night before, not having had anything to drink/eat nor using the restroom any since then, and i weight 213.8. im consistently 5~ lbs gain from morning to night, then its magically lost over night. i understand why it builds up in the day. BUT WHERE DOES IT GO WHILE IM ASLEEP!

here is a phenomena. say i go to bed at 9pm. weighing 217.2. wake up the next morning. immediately get on the scale in the exact same boxers as the night before, not having had anything to drink/eat nor using the restroom any since then, and i weight 213.8. im consistently 5~ lbs gain from morning to night, then its magically lost over night. i understand why it builds up in the day. BUT WHERE DOES IT GO WHILE IM ASLEEP!

Different times of the day, different foods eaten throughout the day, different levels of certain hormones, state of mind, amount of sleep etc. all play into how everything affects us. There are so many different variables that one wouldn't think to consider. Even if you did everything the same every single day, hormone levels would still be different and compounds would affect us differently. Also, it depends on what kind of tolerance you've developed to certain compounds: whether your body has down-regulated receptors (pharmacodynamic tolerance) or be from induction of certain enzymes (pharmacokinetic tolerance). Basically, your body wants to stay the same and wants anything put inside of us to affect us as little as possible and our bodies learn to do it more effectively over time (such as tolerance to alcohol), but different situations inside your body control how well the body can resist effects.

I think everyone is aware of this generalization. I'm looking more on a specific, physiological level

http://pescience.com/
http://selectprotein.com/
The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES

Here is one to talk about. I notice this happening almost daily, especially when I'm at work... and I wonder if 1) it happens to you guys and 2) why does it happen?

I work night shift for 12 hours from 7P-7A, so I'm usually up around 1 or 2PM, will hit the gym, eat, head to work, eat again around midnight or so, and then nothing except water or perhaps a diet soda if I need some caffeine. Then usually around 4-5-6AM I get this feeling of hardening up, usually in my neck, hands, forearms, and chest... my veins bulge out like crazy mostly on my arms and I feel like I've turned into a hardened piece of steel or something... kind of the way you would feel after hammering out a bunch of light weight high volume sets after taking a pump product like agmatine (probably not the best description but hopefully it gets the point across)... and then this usually subsides by the time I'm driving home and is definitely gone before I crawl into bed.

I've noticed this while on supplements and while taking a break from supplementation so I can't just pinpoint it to a certain substance. I'm assuming if has something to do with water intake, meal times, and the time of night, but I just don't know why it happens!

Wow, great call! I get this whenever I stay up really late/don't sleep at night. Vascularity also gets insane (even moreso than when I'm lifting!). I honestly don't have an answer but am going to look into this.

http://pescience.com/
http://selectprotein.com/
The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES

I would like to see this answered too. I beleive doms doesnt matter because while it can be an indicator of a good workout and muscle microtears, it can also be brought on by high amounts of lactic acid during a workout. Anyone who had done any of the DTP style training can vouch for the doms brougt on by this!

I would like to see this answered too. I beleive doms doesnt matter because while it can be an indicator of a good workout and muscle microtears, it can also be brought on by high amounts of lactic acid during a workout. Anyone who had done any of the DTP style training can vouch for the doms brougt on by this!

I've tried DTP & GVT.
I'm mixing the two in my in my own format & dubbing it Aaron's F5 Training: Total Destruction.

Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.ANABOLIC MINDS SITE REP

DOMS have a variety of causes. You could have the best workout in the world and not get sore due to training adaptations to your routine.What you "should be looking for" is progressive overload on compound lifts and muscular stimulation via ancillary exercises. I thought this was common knowledge. If it's not, exercise section >>> supplement section in terms of where you should spend your time

http://pescience.com/
http://selectprotein.com/
The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES

DOMS have a variety of causes. You could have the best workout in the world and not get sore due to training adaptations to your routine.What you "should be looking for" is progressive overload on compound lifts and muscular stimulation via ancillary exercises. I thought this was common knowledge. If it's not, exercise section >>> supplement section in terms of where you should spend your time

But its not as cool in there and this is where all the good bros hang out!

DOMS have a variety of causes. You could have the best workout in the world and not get sore due to training adaptations to your routine.What you "should be looking for" is progressive overload on compound lifts and muscular stimulation via ancillary exercises. I thought this was common knowledge. If it's not, exercise section >>> supplement section in terms of where you should spend your time

You do know a stronger muscle does not always equal a bigger muscle right?
A people have seen great results with high volume training, from Pro BB to average gym go'ers (weekend warriors).

Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.ANABOLIC MINDS SITE REP

You do know a stronger muscle does not always equal a bigger muscle right?
A people have seen great results with high volume training, from Pro BB to average gym go'ers (weekend warriors).

Yes, I do know that, thanks LOL.

No one said anything about strength training. Progressive overload + muscular stimulation (or volume, since you didn't seem to understand my post) are the keys to hypertrophy. Training for pain and pumps is not the same as high volume. Pumps merely indicate increasing nutrient demand and would be most pronounced in endurance training (which would not be the pure ideal for hypertrophy). Pain is usually indicative of lactic acid build-up and would also be most pronounced during endurance training. Volume training refers to the total workload of the training session and has nothing to do with pumps or pain.

http://pescience.com/
http://selectprotein.com/
The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES

No one said anything about strength training. Progressive overload + muscular stimulation (or volume, since you didn't seem to understand my post) are the keys to hypertrophy. Training for pain and pumps is not the same as high volume. Pumps merely indicate increasing nutrient demand and would be most pronounced in endurance training (which would not be the pure ideal for hypertrophy). Pain is usually indicative of lactic acid build-up and would also be most pronounced during endurance training. Volume training refers to the total workload of the training session and has nothing to do with pumps or pain.

So we been talking about the same thing... Total work load, but I agree with getting stronger is beneficial as well.

As far as understanding your post? It's called clarification.

Your post are a sea of words usually over most peoples heads, very knowledgeable but hard to understand.
Non the less I respect your opinions.

Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.ANABOLIC MINDS SITE REP

So we been talking about the same thing... Total work load, but I agree with getting stronger is beneficial as well.

As far as understanding your post? It's called clarification.

Your post are a sea of words usually over most peoples heads, very knowledgeable but hard to understand.
Non the less I respect your opinions.

I didn't mean that in a bad way lol, I applaud you for digging deeper. When I'm blunt in terms of definitions and the like, it's usually because I'm pressed for time and don't have the luxury of "roseying it up" or adding smilies.

http://pescience.com/
http://selectprotein.com/
The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES

I didn't mean that in a bad way lol, I applaud you for digging deeper. When I'm blunt in terms of definitions and the like, it's usually because I'm pressed for time and don't have the luxury of "roseying it up" or adding smilies.

Thank you Coop, got nothing but respect for you...
Yup, I'll like to understand more, there's a lot to learn from you.

Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.ANABOLIC MINDS SITE REP

Lactic acid in and of itself shouldn't cause DOMS..unless I am tripping.

DOMS is highly interesting though. It has always interested me how susceptible certain body parts are to DOMS in my experience while others are more resistant. Hmmm..

Thats right, DOMS is not caused by lactic acid (although lactic acid is a limitor of anaerobic exercise). That being said, the full etiology of DOMS is not readily understood. Eccentric training is a common factor in the onset of DOMS and DOMS itself is also known to be caused my micro tears in muscle tissues which cause inflammation (Studied by measuring the blood cells of people with DOMS finding out that the white blood cells responsible for dealing with inflammation were highly present in the tissue).

COOP when you stated (above) that endurance training will be hindered by lactic acid build up; do you mean "high reps"? Because running sub VO2max would ensure that A) any (if any) lactic acid is turned into pyruvate which will be fed back into the Krebs cycle and B) that the glycolytic system or lactic acid system would not be utilized as much when the aerobic system is engaged (not saying their isnt a cross-over of energy systems but if the aerobic system can function optimally then wouldnt A) occur?

Depending on your lactate threshold, exercise is usually limited at around the 1-2minute mark by lactate which I wouldnt really call endurance myself UNLESS you mean muscular endurance. In that case my points are moot haha

Thats right, DOMS is not caused by lactic acid (although lactic acid is a limitor of anaerobic exercise). That being said, the full etiology of DOMS is not readily understood. Eccentric training is a common factor in the onset of DOMS and DOMS itself is also known to be caused my micro tears in muscle tissues which cause inflammation (Studied by measuring the blood cells of people with DOMS finding out that the white blood cells responsible for dealing with inflammation were highly present in the tissue).

COOP when you stated (above) that endurance training will be hindered by lactic acid build up; do you mean "high reps"? Because running sub VO2max would ensure that A) any (if any) lactic acid is turned into pyruvate which will be fed back into the Krebs cycle and B) that the glycolytic system or lactic acid system would not be utilized as much when the aerobic system is engaged (not saying their isnt a cross-over of energy systems but if the aerobic system can function optimally then wouldnt A) occur?

Depending on your lactate threshold, exercise is usually limited at around the 1-2minute mark by lactate which I wouldnt really call endurance myself UNLESS you mean muscular endurance. In that case my points are moot haha

Just looking for clarification

Yes, high reps (the discussion is about weight training ). Lactic acid obviously would not be created for pure aerobic work

http://pescience.com/
http://selectprotein.com/
The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES

Wow, great call! I get this whenever I stay up really late/don't sleep at night. Vascularity also gets insane (even moreso than when I'm lifting!). I honestly don't have an answer but am going to look into this.

Thats right, DOMS is not caused by lactic acid (although lactic acid is a limitor of anaerobic exercise). That being said, the full etiology of DOMS is not readily understood. Eccentric training is a common factor in the onset of DOMS and DOMS itself is also known to be caused my micro tears in muscle tissues which cause inflammation (Studied by measuring the blood cells of people with DOMS finding out that the white blood cells responsible for dealing with inflammation were highly present in the tissue).

COOP when you stated (above) that endurance training will be hindered by lactic acid build up; do you mean "high reps"? Because running sub VO2max would ensure that A) any (if any) lactic acid is turned into pyruvate which will be fed back into the Krebs cycle and B) that the glycolytic system or lactic acid system would not be utilized as much when the aerobic system is engaged (not saying their isnt a cross-over of energy systems but if the aerobic system can function optimally then wouldnt A) occur?

Depending on your lactate threshold, exercise is usually limited at around the 1-2minute mark by lactate which I wouldnt really call endurance myself UNLESS you mean muscular endurance. In that case my points are moot haha

Just looking for clarification

This is the part where i bail because you just went wayyy over my head. Haha. Community college edyoukashun here lol.

I'm beginning to think it has to do with fluid retention, dehydration, body (skin) temperature, and vasodilation associated with all of that and meal timings. I'm sure if I continued to eat throughout the night I wouldn't feel it as much, but after meeting kcals/macros for the day I typically stop around midnight and don't feel the "pump/vasodilation" until hours later. And you are right its almost more pronounced compared to what I feel when I lift!