Listen, I don't want to rant. I understand about Israel, I understand that it is facing many enemies. Israel has the right to exist, alright?

But if the article is proven correct, all I want to know is why in the world did the Israeli government spy on the US. It's almost absurd. I would complain if I found out CIA Agents are busy stealing nuclear secrets from France.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Onion

"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.

Can't say I'm pleased to hear it, but I'm not surprised, either. These days, everybody spies on everybody else. I'd be willing to bet money that as we speak, there are American spies in just about every country on Earth, including staunch allies like Britain, Australia, and Israel.

Yeah, it happens more often than we think. I wouldn't be surprised if the US is spying on Israel too. But that doesn't make it right, especially when the US has been so ridiculously supportive of Israel.

True, but at the same time, The United States is essentially the keystone in Israel's efforts to survive. They need to keep their eyes peeled, because if the United States halts their support, Israel will be in the fight of their lives.

Nothing new here, except perhap this particular incident. Jonathan Pollard, anyone? Spying is probably as old as prostitution (how do you think the wives found out what their wayward husbands were up to anyway ).

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

Can't say I'm pleased to hear it, but I'm not surprised, either. These days, everybody spies on everybody else. I'd be willing to bet money that as we speak, there are American spies in just about every country on Earth, including staunch allies like Britain, Australia, and Israel.

Well with all of these satelites orbiting the planet, nearly any country can 'spy'. It is commonplace. Hey, I don't think that America should have a double standard on this.

I could care less. This is Isreal we're talking about. They present no threat to us. But other countries, liek Russia, China, India, and the like- those countries are of the kind we need to watch out for...

I disagree, Israel presents a threat to us, but not in the most obvious manner. Being our bed buddies, they're not going to attack us or anything, but being the only truly pro-America nation in the middle east, they are quite literally our face in that section of the world. Because of this, what they do reflects back on us really, really quickly, and from the Arab world's opinion of them, generally badly too.

If Israel was less representative of US interests in the middle east, I think we wouldn't be having so many problems with the Arab world. In a nutshell, it's their screwups that get a lot of arab nations pissed at the US. And then they become a threat to us and our interests.

back on topic I'm not wholly surprised at this all. But given how close the US and Israel are, I'm surprised they couldn't have found out just by asking.

"So if you go to Washington, it's buildings clean and nice. Bring a pack of matches...and we'll burn the White House twice!"

"Nobody's talking about extermination. No one ever does. They just do it." - Magneto

"Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice, unless you get a good percentage of her price."

As was pointed out above...this is actually old news...the guy they arrested has been in the US for sometime and according to the AP article I read hasn't done any real spying in about twenty years. The organization he was working for no longer exists and his "handler" left the country long ago though it was said in the article that he maintained contact with that handler and that was one of the reasons he got caught.

Am I surprised the Israelis were spying on us? Not really..in fact I'd wager that pretty much all governments spy on each other regardless of alliances. The fact of the matter is that your best buddy could one day become your worst enemy and you have to be prepared for that.

"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

I disagree, Israel presents a threat to us, but not in the most obvious manner. Being our bed buddies, they're not going to attack us or anything, but being the only truly pro-America nation in the middle east, they are quite literally our face in that section of the world. Because of this, what they do reflects back on us really, really quickly, and from the Arab world's opinion of them, generally badly too.

Precisely why the US should stay away from Israel and the Middle East in general.

The middle east is the greatest strategical point in the world. Why else would the U.S want control there? The formation of the terrain and countries/continents aroudn that area forms the greatest offense/defense point in the world for America to use if it ever went to war with any country in Europe, Asia, or Africa... Not to mention all the oil there... Why else do you think all of those countries want control of that place, besides it originally being Arab territory that was taken form the arabs and given to the Jews around the time of the Cold war. They want it back. (Or was it WWII or the Korean war? I haven't read a history book for awhile...)

Can't say I'm pleased to hear it, but I'm not surprised, either. These days, everybody spies on everybody else. I'd be willing to bet money that as we speak, there are American spies in just about every country on Earth, including staunch allies like Britain, Australia, and Israel.

Q . F . T .

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Originally Posted by JCarter426

Precisely why the US should stay away from Israel and the Middle East in general.

If we withdraw from the Middle-East, Israel will eventually be destroyed by it's enemies. It's outnumbered by too significant of a margin to survive without allies, and we're pretty much all they've got. And I think we all know that if Israel saw it's own defeat coming, they would use the nukes we all know they've got.

I don't think it's possible for the US to stay entirely out of the mideast precisely b/c of its importance in the global energy market. The only way it would be remotely possible is if we were autarkical in the energy needs department.

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

I don't think it's possible for the US to stay entirely out of the mideast precisely b/c of its importance in the global energy market. The only way it would be remotely possible is if we were autarkical in the energy needs department.

If the US spent its resources into developing alternative energy sources instead of fighting a war with half of the Middle East, then all that oil would be completely worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

And American politicians' problem, that is if they want to remain in office.

If the US spent its resources into developing alternative energy sources instead of fighting a war with half of the Middle East, then all that oil would be completely worthless.

If we just exploited our own "fossil fuels", we'd probably not have to import any oil or gasoline. Since the infrastructure exists for those, it'd make more sense to go there first while we look for viable alternatives to develop to replace them with down the line.

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

Being our bed buddies, they're not going to attack us or anything, but being the only truly pro-America nation in the middle east, they are quite literally our face in that section of the world. Because of this, what they do reflects back on us really, really quickly, and from the Arab world's opinion of them, generally badly too.

You do have a point there....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Web Rider

Which it does a wonderful job of NOT trying to get along with by blowing up civilian population centers to kill like, 5 terrorists. Yeah, they give real good reason to be left alone.

Yep. I agree that they shouldn't be left alone. We need to catch who we need to catch.

If we just exploited our own "fossil fuels", we'd probably not have to import any oil or gasoline. Since the infrastructure exists for those, it'd make more sense to go there first while we look for viable alternatives to develop to replace them with down the line.

Yeah, that too. The point is that the US relies on the Middle East by choice, not by necessity.

And really, could they have picked any better allies than Israel, a country which most people in that region despise and have vowed to destroy, and Saudi Arabia, where most of the 9/11 hijackers were from? Excellent choices there. But enough of my seemingly-irrelevant tangent.

You ignored the whole point about that they'd almost certainly nuke the hell out of the Middle-East if they saw their own end in sight.

And we're allied with Israel because it's the right thing to do, not because we're hoping to get anything out of them. Besides, we've still got some of that "Whoops, sorry, we let six million of your people get gassed."

Yeah, that too. The point is that the US relies on the Middle East by choice, not by necessity.

And really, could they have picked any better allies than Israel, a country which most people in that region despise and have vowed to destroy, and Saudi Arabia, where most of the 9/11 hijackers were from? Excellent choices there. But enough of my seemingly-irrelevant tangent.

Yep. I agree that they shouldn't be left alone. We need to catch who we need to catch.

Half of me says they should be left to their own devices, the other half of me says that they should be better kept under our thumb. If they're gonna be our face over there, they're gonna behave themselves.

Quote:

You ignored the whole point about that they'd almost certainly nuke the hell out of the Middle-East if they saw their own end in sight.

And we're allied with Israel because it's the right thing to do, not because we're hoping to get anything out of them. Besides, we've still got some of that "Whoops, sorry, we let six million of your people get gassed."

No, we're allied with Israel because after WWII, the US was the only nation to truly have the manpower or the desire to enforce the establishment of the Israeli state by the UN. Europe doesn't really care one way or the other, though Europe never did like anyone they didn't feel was European, or of the particular European country in question.

And Israel does not have that kind of nuclear arsenal. Israel is ranked as "possibly nuclear armed", meaning they can get one or put one together in a hurry, but there's no huge stockpile waiting to launch.

"So if you go to Washington, it's buildings clean and nice. Bring a pack of matches...and we'll burn the White House twice!"

"Nobody's talking about extermination. No one ever does. They just do it." - Magneto

"Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice, unless you get a good percentage of her price."

I think you mean that "officially" there is no arsenal to launch. Whether they actually have 400 or so missles/bombs/devices at a (not-so-)secret facility is not "officially" confirmed. But actual US-Israeli history is not one of military alliance from that countries inception. Truman officially supported the recognition of Israel w/in a day of it's proclamation of nationhood. What we currently think of as the US_Israel relationship didn't start till MUCH later (late 60s-70s).

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

Um, about the whole Israeli spy thing, from the Israeli Ambassador to the UN, Dan Gillerman:

Quote:

Gillerman also was asked about another topic involving the U.S. government and Israel: the arrest last week in New Jersey of an 84-year-old man accused of passing U.S. weapons program secrets to an Israeli agent a quarter-century ago.

Retired U.S. military engineer Ben-ami Kadish faces charges linking him to the same now-defunct Israeli intelligence agency that used Jonathan Pollard, who is serving a life sentence for spying for Israel.

Gillerman called it "a very old matter."

"It pertains to something that may or may not have happened 25 years ago" and would be decided when Kadish goes to trial, he said.

In the wake of the Pollard case, the ambassador said Israel had made a pledge not to spy on the United States, "and that is something which I know that we have honored completely."

"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.

Not to justify the dude getting arrested for being a spy, you'd still want to spy to some degree on your allies just to keep tabs on them, like breaking into the CIA building in the orginalSplinter Cell game.