Love Hurts

The Philadelphia fans have acted as a tenth player throughout the years. With a record under .500 at home, Charlie Manuel says the Phillies may be trying to do too much, but also has a message for the passionate Phillies fans.

“I notice sometimes when they’re talking to us around the dugout, they’re always talking about last year and thanking us for winning and all that,” Charlie Manuel said. “Of course, they’re enjoying the game and they love us, but… well, maybe they should get on us a little bit.”

haha this is a funny post, but completely off topic I just read that Victorino is packaged in a bundle for Peavy. Is there any truth to this? I’m okay with trading Victorino, but not for Peavy. Peavy would get lit up in CBP. I don’t think he’d waive that no trade clause either to play here. He’d be terrified of CBP.

Charlie is trying to get up motivate. I just read one of the stupidest post. Someone said how can blanton pitch like he did and be a 4-5, what a rocket scientest, The reason guys are 1 or 2 or 4-5 is based on being consistents with there ability to get people out, anyone who is in the majors can toss a quality start 3 out of ten times like blanton he is at 3.3 now take Cole hamels he can win without his best stuff, and his quality starts, based on last season was close to 7.7 of 10 . So it good stuff, consistent good location whcih speell quality starts which keep you in games, If moyer throws a three hit shoutout with 11 stikeouts does that make him a number 1 and they said I am too old to post better old than stupid like the guy who posted that comment.

I’m not sure if he wants the fans to boo more, but definitely get back to the gritty Philadelphia fans that he knows. It’s amazing to hear that kind of talk after all the bad mouthing that Philly fans take from the media. Fans have been kinda soft so far this year, not including most of the people on this site. I know if I had a chance to say some crap to Rollins or Werth I wouldn’t pass it up. Those guys are killing the team right now.

Love of team, as in love of country, involves not unconditional love and blind faith but involves questioning, voicing dissatisfaction, and offering criticism, all for the purpose of inspiring those we love to move in a better direction. In the Phils case this means our demands for hustle, using your head, or more front office diligence. Being a Phils fan is advanced citizenship. Sometimes we can even directly affect the outcome of a game at a crucial time (are you there Burt Hooten?). Our players know that when we cheer we mean it and when we boo they deserve it.

I gotta say this is what I love about Charlie. Here is a guy who says what he means. He obviously thinks the team is still just going through the motions, without the fire from last year. He’s realized he can’t get through to them himself, so he’s calling the dogs in.
Friday should be interesting…

Hey mikemike, before you talk about other people being stupid, look at your own post. It’s full of misspelled words (scientest, consistents, whcih, speelled, shoutout, stikeouts), un-capitalized names (blanton, hamels, moyer), horrible use of commas, a lack of periods, and no hyphen in a word that should be hyphenated (three-hit). You make it hard for anyone to take you seriously.

MLBTraderumors.com says some assortment of Drabek/Kendrick/Savery/Carrasco would probably be in the deal but if we deal Werth/Carrasco/Donald we may be able to pull that off for Peavy.

This is what ESPN Insider wrote, that MLBTradeRumors copied:

Would Jake Peavy agree to play in Philadelphia?

His agent, Barry Axelrod, said he had not discussed the Padres ace with the Phillies, but would not dismiss the idea.

“He has a strong preference to play in the National League,” Axelrod told MLB.com. “He also wants to play for a contender. Both of those two things play into Philly’s hands. The personnel is awesome. If there is one downside, it’s the geographical difference for him, given that he has made his family home in the San Diego area.”

The Phillies also would have to be willing to take on the remaining $63 million on Peavy’s contract, which is not a given.

For most of the games I have been to this year, the fans have seemed very quiet. The Phillies fans were more active at Nationals Park and Yankee Stadium. But it does seem to get very quiet during home games. There is a lot of cheering after a good play, but there is no cheering or chanting before the play. You don’t hear much “Let’s Go Phillies” during the games. I will be down there on Saturday with the rest of my Plan A friends, and will be sure to do plenty of booing and cheering.

I love that every thread on this site quickly turns into a trade rumor / wish list thread.

It does not matter what the thread is about “Matt Stairs has a hang nail”
First Post: “We need Peavy! Myers blows, I want Oswalt. Hey Aaron Cook is Colorado’s 4th starter but he could be a number 2 here.”

TIM: I am begging you can you please create like a trade thread that could hold all of these fantasy baseball/wish list/impossible trade ideas?

It could be like the Ticket Exchange thread that has a link on the side. I feel like it would be for the best since the people who want to discuss the current team and current events would enjoy not having trade talk clog the boards and those who want to talk trades they will have a thread dedicated to it.

Please make it happen, hearing people push for Halladay, Cook and Oswalt is driving me insane.

To comment on the fan situation. I have noticed quite a difference between the crowds at the games this year and last year. I have been to 4.5 games (.5 for the on deck series) and you can definitely tell the difference.

It reminds me of what happened to the Red Sox after winning the ’04 series. In the ’05 season the stadium was filled with fake fans, wearing there brand new caps and not really understanding the game. The real fans were few and far between and spread throughout the stadium. The excitement of winning the WS caused for a huge fan base to grow and include many new fans who did not know much about the game and only came for the home runs and to say they were there.

This is what is happening to CBP. Last year no matter where you sat there were real fans. Now every-time I go down to the game I hear some of the most ridiculous quotes.

One fake fan to another “That’s Shane Victornio, they call him the Flying Hawaiian, thats because He is fast and from Hawaii.”

A fan fake cheers, “C’mon J-Roll, get a hit” – The problem was Chase was at bat and Jimmy was on second.

I understand this is what happens when your team wins but it seems thats these not knowledgeable fans fill the stadium. It is now the trendy thing to do, go tailgate and head into the stadium to walk around and hopefully catch a few moonshots from Raul, Howard and Stairs. These fans usually don’t understand the game of baseball and therefore have no idea what they are talking about. I have been at two games where “the wave” went around the stadium for a good five minutes. That would never fly in CBP last year, but this year it seems like a common occurrence.

NJ I thought that too but I think a lot of people have shied away from posting on these threads because they also do not want to see these ridiculous trade rumors and get involved with the negative banter.

I think more people will post on these threads and have better discussions about the current team if the trade rumors had their own separate thread.

I am really against trading Victorino. Why not trade Ibanez then (SARCASM). Werth may be a trading chip, but why trade Vic, a gold glover, basestealing switch hitter? Dumb really. Why BUNDLE him, he is a one for one deal, not a “bundle”. Gosh I hope this is silly rumor.

That’s my point doug go after the grammer and age. how old are you ten? I forgot more about this game then you will ever know. Some of my mistakes are typing. and not reading it before I post. but the point is ,so even you can understand. Blanton start the other night doesn’t make him a 1 or 2 which was stated by someone. And the post was in reference to being call old because I said ,Cain was someone who interest me , didn’t know he had such great stats. I was attack by a person for that post, yet he can post that blanton joke and it’s okay.

If we somehow do agree to the terms of Peavy, It wont be until after the Padres series (which is coming up after the Nats series) on June 4th. The Padres wouldn’t be dumb enough to ship him over here to face his former team…Thats like shooting a gun and having it backfire in your face.

Only been once to CBP this season, but I’ve definitely noticed too many *new* phans who all of a sudden want to go to games and stuff… That’s ok, but they’re definitely not as passionate and bipolar as those of us who’ve been going before we won the WS. Like SpinJamin says, Charlie’s probably not asking us to boo, but to just be ourselves and scold/yell/react when sh*t happens, rather than staying all quiet eating a freaking hot dog *hoping* that the team will suddenly start playing better at home.

Werth has MUCH better all around numbers than Pat Burrell ever did (who for some reason, people considered a GOD) … they don’t have anyone ready to replace him right now.. adding a pitcher, but replacing Werth with Mayberry Jr is not very good move..

Michael Taylor might be good.. but he’s only played 40 games above CLASS A-ball.. he’s doing pretty well in AA Reading, but that doesn’t mena he’s ready to play MLB

Werth’s on pace to have better numbers than last year’s 24 HRs, 67 RBIs, 73 Runs and 20 SBs (he’s already got 8 HR, 26 RBI, 33 Runs, and 8 SB) in only 43 games, but because his batting average is at .255 right now, people are trying to move him in trades.

I think he’s WAY too valuable to the current team to even think about moving in a deal

it sucks not being able to go to the park and buy tickets for a specific pitching matchup or something that you want to see because of all the new fans..

but i’ll take that in a heartbeat for what happened last year.. that playoff run was amazing, and at some point it will get back to “real fans” …. people get excited about a good team in their city though, and that’s the case here..

Jeez, the personal attacks on here seem to have become the norm now, especially the last several days. I’m not sure why, but, whatever. For me it’s kind of a downer to come on here anymore, what’s up people? Can’t you guys discuss something without belittling the other person, does that make you feel big and important? If you’re not interested in someone’s post, DON’T READ IT, no need to rip them a new one. Sorry, but this has been bugging me, carry on.

Big Dipper~ I too have frustrations of seeing a thread being overwhelmed by trade rumors and opinions that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic posed by Tim Malcolm. I easily get discouraged in my attempts to add my thoughts to Tim’s main topic when post after endless posts offered repetitive ideas on trades that often include some personal rancor between “GM wanna be’s” that are posting.

While your idea of a separate thread for such posters is a good one, I don’t think Tim would consider it practical since his primary goal is to attract as many posters as possible to his site for feedbacks and is willing to accept some negative aspects of posting.

Don
Comparing Werth to Mayberry is pretty much just a matter of oppinion at this point. Some people would agree with you, while some would disagree with you and say Mayberry could just as good, if not better than Werth…Look at Burrell for instance as you mentioned…He was an idol in Philly, and fans were upset he left…Now people quickly forgot about Burrell soon after Ibanez stepped in the picture a week into the season. I would have to be one who disagrees with you, and would think Mayberry would fit in just well, and if it takes trading Werth and a few star prospects to get a guy like Peavy, Bedard, or Halliday…Than I’m all for it…But if its someone other than them 3 pitchers were trading Werth for than Yes I would agree with you Don.

Georgie I didn’t mean to start this and am sorry to the people who think its about them, I Just got mad when all I said was Cain numbers are really good. didn’t know that much about him and would like to trade for him. The person in question who’S name I don’t want to say . Said to the effects I don’t care about your trade you are a old man on a computer. If that is the responses that we can get by posting something it’s crazy,

If you read my posts, i was stating that after the “number 1” pitcher, all the numbers are non-sense and really hold no true value.

As for Blanton, he is a so called, “number 3” or “number 4” pitcher, but when he throws gems out their like last night, thats what number 1 type pitchers do. Hence it is ridiculous to say because someone stuggles, they are “a number 4” pitcher.

Does that allow them to pitch like crap, because they are “number 4” or “number 5” pitchers? No, because they’re going to get reamed on here about it anyway.

And yes, im sick of people like you saying, “Well, if we trade Werth, Carrasco, blah blah blah” we could bring in Cain. Dude it’s not going to happen, so stop bringing it up. They don’t need Cain, they need some stability within their own organization, and some better at-bats would help also.

Don M~ Werth has reportedly said he is a “streaky” hitter and to end a slump is to play everyday. Does that remind you in a way of Burrell and his streakiness as hitter? Anyway, the Phillies should exercise “tough love” on Werth and sit him down on the bench so can regain his mental approach on his ABs (take that bat off the shoulder and be aggressive with 1st pitch strikes).

IMO, the whole Number 2-5 pitcher thing is brought about by people like Gammons, Rosenthal, Olney, Stark, Etc. The pitching coach doesn’t go into spring training say, well hey Chan Ho, your a number 5 pitcher, so its okay to give up like 4-5 runs a game, because frankly, thats all your supposed to do. No, Dubee deals with every pitcher the same way whether it would be Hamels or Happ.

I just wonder when people say well, Blanton is a number 4, do they really believe that, or is that what someone covering the game said and they just go with it? If i’m not mistaken, Blanton was the opening game starter for the A’s last year, yet hes a number 4 with the Phillies? I think it’s due to Blanton struggling, like every other player does (Rollins), more so then his ability.

Opening day pitcher for a bad team. So whoever is the opening day pitcher for the pirates, is he good, Blanton is a four based on his career and stuff, Quality starts is a important factor in evaluation of a pitcher. Last season look at how many times, Santana ,Hamel, and the top guys gave up three runs or less, in 6 innings, Blanton isn’t in there league, and Gammons, and others have there opinion. But its not what makes a guy a quality shutdown one or two, its stuff consistenancy, location, Blanton had it for one game and you are saying he is in there league as a 2-3. Ask any scout . he was a inning eater for a bad team. I don’t understand how a guy who gives up close to 5 runs a game and has so few quality starts is consider a good starter. maybe you are right I am old and don’t know the new game of baseball.

I agree with the phans changing. My wife and I have had a partial season ticket plan for years, and we’ve noticed a difference this year too. Sometimes I listen to pieces of other peoples dumb conversations…like the guy who said that Jamie Moyer isn’t a good pitcher because he doesn’t throw hard enough. Or the four females who sat behind us during the Dodger series and talked about American Idol for an hour. Sometimes I just sit and observe people doing the wave (which i hate), or taking pictures and texting their friends. The last game we went to, CBP was just plain dead. The loudest it got was during the Turkey Hill Ice Cream Shuffle.

Don M~ You’re comparing Werth with Victorino? These are two athletes with different roles and responsibilities in the lineup. I’m sure you understand how that works. And why Victorino hits in the top of the order and Werth usually in the 5th or 6th hole. So using stats for comparison between the two is misleading. More HRs and RBIs than Victorino? Com’n.. were not talking about a match of “power” hitters are we?

Granted patience has it’s rewards and certainly Werth is known for that. However, pitchers know that too. And when Werth is not hitting and allows himself to fall into a pitcher’s count, he usually gets himself out. I have a lifetime’s worth of experience in watching baseball to know that aggressiveness can be a cure for a slump. A hitter needs to counter a pitcher’s adjustment with his own. IMO, Werth needs to attack the first good pitch because he won’t see any more once he is behind in the count.

Bruce, you can compare Werth and Victorino and you bringing up their spots in the lineup is a mute point since Charlie likes to switch them often and have Werth bat in the 2 hole and Victornio 5th or 6th.

If Bedard is signed for more than two years. Then Donald, Carrasco, Werth isn’t too much to give, Donald isn’t a future allstar. mostly thought of as ulitily player. Not by me, but scouts. Carrasco is a head case from what I am reading, there is no guaranteed he will ever be as good as bardard. Werth is thirty and still not able to handle right hand pitching, so how good does he become, and do we have to give him arb next season if he stays? but on the other side is better than mayberry. and Taylor and brown aren’t ready yet. so to me it’s a catch 22.

Big Dipper, I respectively have to disagree with making a comparison between Werth and Victorino. Again, my point is you have two players with different assignment/role because of the nature of their athleticism. One is more perfectly suited as a “tablesetter” plus meeting the demands of such a role with the capability to advance a runner or hit and run behind the runner. Having outstanding speed and aggressiveness helps too. Victorino more than fits that description. Werth’s role is more in line with being a run producer. Thus his “power” is better used in the middle and lower batting order. Because of Werth’s speed and patience with the bat, Manuel will sometime use Werth in the no 2 hole to balance the lefty/righty matches and have Victorino provide the additional threat of speed and agression in the 6th hole. This lineup order is often used to jumpstart a struggling offense.

You guys talkin about trading Werth is insane. The guy is in a slump right now he’ll probably be hot in 2 weeks n all this talk will stop. He’s too valuable to this team to trade has a great arm n covers a ton steals bags when needed and has power n drives in runs. Not sayin we need to trade anyone but if we do its Victorino. Somehow I’d put a package together for Matt Cain.

But Werth isn’t JUST a “power” bat.. he’s also a dangerous runner, and a very good fielder.. he’s got just as much range as victorino and is probably just as fast.. its just that he takes long strides so it doesn’t look like he’s flying off the ground like Victorino.

i’d trade Victorino before Werth because Werth can play center, and steal bags… but Victorino can’t hit 25 HRs

I’d rather not trade either one of them, and just see what we can get with our prospects.. (if you’re looking for a “top” pitcher.. its going to cost “top Prospects” but if we’re looking to simply IMPROVE our rotation, we can do that much cheaper… that’s how they’ve gone before, and that is probably how they’ll go again)

Bedard isn’t worth any semblance of good prospects for the simple fact that the Mariners are going to want payment for losing tillman, and adam jones, and that kind of return the Mariners are asking for isn’t worth a rent a player who hasn’t proven he’s good on a good team, he’s a good pitcher on a bad team, like mikemike was comparing for a #1 for the pirates.

Just a comment on “Arm-chair GM’s”…
I really dont mind all the guessing and speculation on who we could get ,or who might go .or any of that stuff.Doesnt bother me at all.Its actually entertaining because people try to back up their reasoning with baseball logic.
But the name calling and ego blustering crap has to go.Everybody is entitled to their opinion,even if its crazy.

my main point is that i’d really be careful about trading any of our “regulars” for anything short of a pitcher that rivals Hamels as the best on our staff.

Your “regular” players are there day-in and day-out… just as I thought it was nuts that Sabathia gets almost $1 M per start, and only plays in 35 games per year.. I don’t want to weaken our lineup for a guy that will play in 15 games for us.. and not guarantee any wins in the process

If we can trade a Kendrick, and some lower level prospects to a team for an arm that will help, I think that’s the move we make

Tools of Ignorance~ I had perceived the same with those comments from Manuel. I think Manuel is expressing some annoyance in a lighter vein about the past distractions and his desire for his team to be better focused on the playing field.

Of course, Manuel knows where “the buck stops” in his role as manager. The bottom line is his responsiblity in overseeing the team and do what is ever necessary to keep the team focused and maintain their winning ways.

I agree with Georgie: coming on here has become a bit of a downer… there should be a sign-in area where trolls and grumps aren’t allowed.

I disagree with the comment about the “new fans.” Attendance is up and I think that it’s great. I was down there last night and it was fun (except for the guy in my aisle that tried to get tough because he thought that I was disrespecting his wife and sleeping baby… I got up to use the john and walked by her and told her that she was ok, meaning that she didn’t have to get up and she sat back down, the husband saw her sitting back down as I’m walking by and I guess he thought that I didn’t give her enough time to stand up so he made a smart comment and I told him that he needed to calm down and talk with his wife). There was a group of people sitting in front of us from Houston… not even Phillies fans… they just wanted to see the stadium (they were very respectful). I think all of the new blood is cool and I think that it creates energy. If the stadium was filled with “true baseball fans” everyone would be sitting there watching the scoreboards, analyzing numbers and filling out scorebooks. There aren’t as many chants/waves but I think that a lot of that has to do with the fact that the Phillies SUCK at home this year (which is the single most alarming trend right now).

Armchair GM’ing is alright in small doses and with the understanding that you still have a responsibility to root for your team… that means that you can’t go overboard. You have to realize that your armchair predictions aren’t likely to happen…

These comments were taken out of context, per Todd Zolecki. Manuel immediately laughed when he finished saying the fans should get on them a little bit. He doesn’t really want people to boo them – he just wants the fans to stop coddling the players and thanking them for 2008 before the games. It makes them lose their focus.

I’m not sure about other people on here, I just know that im a big fan of “actual” trade rumors.. and not the lets trade our whole team for every All-Star scenario..

JAYSON STARK’s latest:
On Jake Peavy to ANY East Coast team:
“East Coast teams like the Phillies, Mets, Yankees and Red Sox would probably have to jump through so many hoops and offer so many dollars and perks, we’d bet heavily against Peavy winding up in the Eastern time zone any time soon.”
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On the Phillies search for a Pitcher, and who other teams want in return:
“Is there a prominent starting pitcher in the July shoppers’ catalogue that the Phillies haven’t looked into? Clubs all over baseball report that the Phillies are, as one exec put it, “looking everywhere for starters.” And for once, he said, “they’ve got pieces to give” to get one.

Then there’s a left-hander who is climbing everybody’s charts, Antonio Bastardo, who has a 50-9 strikeout-walk ratio between Double-A and Triple-A. The Phillies dangled Bastardo in July for Rockies reliever Brian Fuentes. But a year later, he is actually drawing some Johan Santana comparisons, and might have passed Carrasco as their No. 1 pitching prospect.”

From Zolecki’s blog, RE Charlie saying “Maybe they should get on us a little”:

Now here’s an important piece of context to that quote: He wasn’t being serious. In fact, he laughed after he said it.

Manuel wasn’t really suggesting the fans need to start booing the Phillies more. He wasn’t suggesting the fans are playing a role in his team’s struggles at home. He cracked a joke. But because it got taken out of context, Manuel felt he had to address it after last night’s game.

He said he was trying to be funny. He said the team’s problems at home have nothing to do with the fans.

Chuck where did he get that? His last start he was at 91 until the fifth and he he started to lose his velocity, He is small , and most on phuture think he is a relief pitcher, because ala madson, he can’t keep his stuff for more than 4 0r 5 innings

Am I the only one who was impressed with our crowd in the 8th and 9th inning last night? That was intense and it was great. If people think that the intensity is down, just look at who they are playing at home (outside the Mets). Phans are still enjoying our title, but I will defend them for their performance in the 8th and 9th last night, not too mention how behind Brad Lidge they were the other night.

42,000 fans a game. The Phils will most likely break their attendance mark set in the ’08 season. That place was rocking and was a huge reason they went 7-0 in the playoffs on the way to the World Series. Charlie says what he feels, he also said that the fans have been great.

How tall is he???? Some web sites had him listed at 6’1″ 180 lbs and some (most) have him at 5’11” 165 lbs… I’ve seen some video on the kid and he looks pretty big. There’s no way that he’s 165 lbs (unless he’s sporting body armor)… I’m leaning towards 180 lbs.

Anyone who is talking about “fake fans” has clearly never traveled outside the (extended)tri-state area (extended meaning DC for the Nats.) Try coming out the Colorado to a Rockies game. You will see the most PATHETIC group of fake, apathetic, clueless, boring group of fans and team in the country. As for the post early about the wave not happening in the past as it does this year? Again, try to go to other ballparks, outside the area. Rockies park, the wave will usually last for about a single section, much less the entire park once. Busch stadium about 3/4 to once around. Ive been going to Phillies games and tail gates for about 20 years, and Philadelphia has the best tail gates, and most fun games to go to.