I don't think it's settled by any means. It's purely subjective. The videos I've watched of Fangio I thought were unreal. There's an onboard camera of him driving in Modena back in the 50s. To drive the F1 cars of those days in the manner he was doing it, was unreal.

Actually, I'd like to know if there is anyone who was around (as a mere fan watching races) when Senna was racing who thinks SV is as good as Senna??

What are you trying to compare?

Senna's racing overall after his first 5.5 seasons in F1 to Vettel's? (That is all we have for Vettel so far)

Or do you mean specific aspects such as,

Senna's racing style developed over his first 5.5 seasons versus Vettel's? Senna's racing achievements over his first 5.5 seasons compared to Vettel's? Senna's racing statistics over the 5.5 seasons compared to Senna's?

By the way, I don't think Ascanelli was making any of the above comparisons. He was merely pointing out a similarity between the two champions that in his mind, made them both great. I am not sure why that leads to a conversation comparing the champions in terms of who is better when there are way too many factors making such a comparison invalid at this stage, imo.

As a disclaimer, in case you do not know, I was a diehard Prost fan growing up and quite young at the time.

That said, what are you trying to compare?

Senna's racing overall after his first 5.5 seasons in F1 - which is all we have seen of Vettel so far?

Or do you mean specific aspects such as,

Senna's racing style developed over his first 5.5 seasons versus Vettel's? Senna's racing achievements over his first 5.5 seasons compared to Vettel's? Senna's racing statistics over the 5.5 seasons compared to Senna's?

Senna completed five-and a half seasons on the 1988 British Grand Prix mark. In that time, this is what he achieved:

As a disclaimer, in case you do not know, I was a diehard Prost fan growing up and quite young at the time.

That said, what are you trying to compare?

Senna's racing overall after his first 5.5 seasons in F1 - which is all we have seen of Vettel so far?

Or do you mean specific aspects such as,

Senna's racing style developed over his first 5.5 seasons versus Vettel's? Senna's racing achievements over his first 5.5 seasons compared to Vettel's? Senna's racing statistics over the 5.5 seasons compared to Senna's?

I dont care about stats ...

I only care about how "Achievements" came about ...

I am interested in driving style .... but mostly I am interested in what I consider to be driver skill ....

I am talking about all of Senna's career ... including pre-F1

Senna's driving skill was legendary ... the guy in I think it was in 93 he stayed out in the wet on slicks ... and led the race when others were on full wets. There is a reason why the guy is revered by race fans...

With reasoning like that, you still have me wondering what on earth has stretched this pointless debate up to 16 pages.

Senna was God! Senna was amazing! Senna was untouchable! Vettel is a modern day average driver with the best car! Those have been the only arguments so far in this debate which counter Ascanelli's opinion, since no one really has anything better to offer. Only problem is, it is repeated so many times.

Has anyone actually given a proper reasoning to why Senna is better than Vettel? I asked you for one before, and my question was, unsurprisingly, completely ignored.

There's an old adage in life that I find to be quite apt here. "If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything."

I find it humorous you whine about being ignored as you've continually exhibited an ignorance unsurpassed by anyone else in this topic. Even though several pages ago, I specifically stated some of what I said was my personal opinion, you still continue to harp on people giving a personal opinion/preference. If you do not like it, then take the best course of action and say nothing.

I've already asked the question that would have been most apt to this discussion, and have yet to get an answer to it; what is the extent of Vettel's technical feedback on the development of the Red Bull cars. Ascanelli never really went into enough depth outside of more generalized statements.

A little FYI, this topic was started several years ago and had a number of pages until it was bumped back up.

So again, if you don't like the discussion here, stop posting to whine about it, and opt to click on that "X" that is in the upper right corner of your screen.

Senna's driving skill was legendary ... the guy in I think it was in 93 he stayed out in the wet on slicks ... and led the race when others were on full wets. There is a reason why the guy is revered by race fans...

But Button and Hulkenberg stayed also out on slicks in Brazil, while others went in for wets (intermediates though, not full wets). Does it make their drives legendary?

Not really, though I have been watching many full race videos of those times, when Senna was racing.

I see Senna's, Alesi's and Button's skills quite similar. Ability to stay out on slicks on a damp track more than others.

No, No, No, No - dont mention Senna and Button in the same sentence .... Its not about slicks in the damp .... that's a by product of his amazing car control abilities. He was even better in the full wet ...

OK - let me put it this way ... the guy won his last title in a weaker car without the other guys having bad luck...The guy never had a bad race - so far as I can remember. The proper comparison for Senna is MS ... These guys took the racing to a new level in their time. Nobody raced the same after Senna as before ... same as MS.

That nonsense with SV being outshone by MW at the start of the season before they gave him back his rear downforce would never have happened to LH or FA .... those are the guy you compare SV to - he is not in the same category as Senna... and its arguable he isnt even as good as LH and FA.

Finally, Senna is not about stats or WDCs - he is revered for his extreme level of skill... Like Giles.

OK - let me put it this way ... the guy won his last title in a weaker car without the other guys having bad luck...The guy never had a bad race - so far as I can remember.

Erm, sorry I got confused. Which title? Senna in 1991? From what I remember, Mansell retired with car problems on many occasions.Never had a bad race? Does an average performance including a spin count? Spain 1991 and 1992 then. Both in the wet by the way.

Erm, sorry I got confused. Which title? Senna in 1991? From what I remember, Mansell retired with car problems on many occasions.Never had a bad race? Does an average performance including a spin count? Spain 1991 and 1992 then. Both in the wet by the way.

You watch an odd race on a video ... I watched a career.... I would need to see the context of those incidents. Anyway - that may have been a bit of an exaggeration to say never had a bad race but the guy was awesome pretty much every race.

I dont think you folks are actually qualified to comment on this one ... with all due respect.

Its like someone in 20 years time looking at MS' career from stats and the odd video and thinking he was at his peak in 200- - 2004 because he was breaking records at that time - and not realising how amazing he was in the weaker Ferrari between 96 and 99.

I remember a few years ago there were music critics who rated Radiohead's the Bends as the best ever album ... its call presentism. Its easy to think that what's going on now is better than what went before - especially if you didnt experience what went before - cause its so hyped.

Yeah I guess watching races live is different from watching videos, FIA season reviews, etc, by already knowing all the results. Do not have that emotional association like you.

But what do you think if someone says from 20 years from now on that Vettel was truly incredible, the way he always pulled away from everyone in the lead and how he fought back from the back of the grid. And other people then should not argue, because they didn't see Vettel doing all that stuff.;)

I'd say Vettel didn't have a bad race in 2012 either, with the exception of a slight mishap with a backmarker, but Senna had those as well (Nakajima, Schlesser anyone?).

Dont get me wrong ... if SV keeps going like this he will be legitimately rated as the best ... Newey car or not.

But not with folks like me who dont care about titles or stats or even wins .... or behind the scenes team building or working with engineers or any of that stuff .... I just like to watch the cars go round and guys push them to the limits.

But I have tremendous respect for SV ... he has amazing focus, he is very intelligent, mature etc... He is also a very good driver ... I just dont think he is skilled at controlling a car more than any other very good driver.... but that's not what he is about. He is about determination, work rate, preparation, mind management etc.... and aside from MS (who has to an extent mentored him) and Prost he may be the best ever at that side of being a driver since I started watching.

He is also a demon at quali... I wish it was still sprint racing to see if he could reproduce those laps consistently.

I'm not hating on SV ... I am just pointing out that Senna really was that good.

Clark, Senna, Vettel, G. Villeneuve (to name but a few).....I've seen them all race and IMHO each is/was as good as the other. That they were/are a step above everyone else is, as far as I'm concerned, completely with merit. We can compare their driving styles, stats, teammates, cars and everything else that encompasses them, but there will never be a definitve answer as to whom was better than whom.

Clark, Senna, Vettel, G. Villeneuve (to name but a few).....I've seen them all race and IMHO each is/was as good as the other. That they were/are a step above everyone else is, as far as I'm concerned, completely with merit. We can compare their driving styles, stats, teammates, cars and everything else that encompasses them, but there will never be a definitve answer as to whom was better than whom.

It depends how much you trust your own judgement. I very happy with my judgement telling me that Senna is better than Vettel because if I'd never even seen them as in the same league and it's not even close then the judgement is easy. There are some difficult ones to call but that aint one of them.

Vettel first time driving a Formula car was in 2003 with 15yoHighlightsWas leading World Series by Renault when he left to race F1 in 2007Second in Formula 3 Euro Series 2006.Third in Formula 3 Macau GP 2005.German Formula BMW champion 2004.Second in Formula BMW ADAC 2003.In 4.5 years he did 94 races with 29 wins, 54 podiums and 22 pole positions.Senna F1 career started in 1984 with 24yo and in his 101 first gps he had1 WDC23 wins47 podiums46 pole positions11 retirements duo to contact with other drivers or their own mistakes30 retirements duo to other reasons like mechanical failures, DSQ, etc.33-8 (80%) Score against teammate when both finished a race .86-10 (90%) Score against teammate in qualifying.Teammates ( Cecotto, Johansson, de Angelis, Dumfries, Nakajima, Prost, Berger)Teams ( Toleman 15 races, Lotus 48 races, McLaren 38 races)

Vettel F1 career started in 2007 with 19yo and till now he has 101 gps3 WDC26 wins46 podiums36 pole positions09 retirements duo to contact with other drivers or their own mistakes11 retirements duo to other reasons like mechanical failures, DSQ, etc.53-18 (75%) Score against teammate when both finished a race.71-30 (70%) Score against teammate in qualifying.Teammates ( Heidfeld, Liuzzi, Bourdais, Webber)Teams ( BMW 1 race, Toro Rosso 25 races, Red Bull 75 races)

3rd. "Has anyone actually given a proper reasoning to why Senna is better than Vettel?" Indeed I had, soon after I posted the stats that you can see above.

4th. You post things like this one

Again you are trying to belittle the obvious car advantage Vettel's had this season, along with the previous two.

Red Bull had the quickest car throughout the season and considerably better reliability than Mclaren, and Vettel nearly lost it to a guy who drove the F2012. Statistics don't tell half the story, especially not in a sport which is 80% car and 20% driver.

Nelson Piquet might have won more championships, but Motorsport historians will always remember Jim Clark as a much better great. Touché J Villeneuve and Stirling Moss.

Quite frankly, Alonso and Vettel is the same. If this season proved anything, it just showed how much better both Alonso and Hamilton are as drivers than Vettel. Marko is living in a fantasy world where his goldboy is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Vettel's mental strength my arse.

but the only ever argument you gave in this topic to show Vettel is equal/greater than Senna was that Vettel has more WDC. Still for this same measures Senna is greater than Alonso and Hamilton, but you think Alonso and Hamilton are better than Vettel and Vettel better than Senna. Really?

No, No, No, No - dont mention Senna and Button in the same sentence .... Its not about slicks in the damp .... that's a by product of his amazing car control abilities. He was even better in the full wet ...

OK - let me put it this way ... the guy won his last title in a weaker car without the other guys having bad luck...The guy never had a bad race - so far as I can remember. The proper comparison for Senna is MS ... These guys took the racing to a new level in their time. Nobody raced the same after Senna as before ... same as MS.

That nonsense with SV being outshone by MW at the start of the season before they gave him back his rear downforce would never have happened to LH or FA .... those are the guy you compare SV to - he is not in the same category as Senna... and its arguable he isnt even as good as LH and FA.

Finally, Senna is not about stats or WDCs - he is revered for his extreme level of skill... Like Giles.

Senna had plenty of bad races duo to spins, or collisions. But I give you that, I don't remember Senna not been up there in pace. (which doesn't mean it never happened but if it had were really few times).

It depends how much you trust your own judgement. I very happy with my judgement telling me that Senna is better than Vettel because if I'd never even seen them as in the same league and it's not even close then the judgement is easy. There are some difficult ones to call but that aint one of them.

I trust my judgement based on my experiences at the track and therefore form an opinion based on that. If your judgement tells you that Senna is better than Vettel, I'm not gonna argue it. Yours like mine are opinions based on how we perceive these issues.

He was only ahead in Germany after the crew had botched up Senna´s pit stop. And he had the chance to prove, that he would´ve been able to stay ahead of Senna in Japan til the end, but instead chose to turn in on him and cause the accident.

Eh?? How can you turn the suzuka incident upside down??

Senna made an opptunistic overtake with little hope of completion without cooperation!! He had been warned prior to the race.

Actually, I'd like to know if there is anyone who was around (as a mere fan watching races) when Senna was racing who thinks SV is as good as Senna??

I do. As a matter of fact, putting them at the same stage of their respective careers in F1, I put SV ahead 3 WDC's to 1. He is a normal & level-headed racing driver who is a demon behind the wheels. Sprouting mystic babble about what in all honesty, driving a racing car as fast as humanly & mechanically possible, Senna was more of a demon both in the car and out of it.

My father saw Rudi Caracciola race and you'll never change his mind as to who he thought the best ever was and he's seen quite a few.

That's exactly my point. It's such a subjective thing, and perhaps even more so for those who saw these drivers in person.

I've always felt Senna and Fangio are up there equally as they both were the fastest drivers of their eras, and won not only races, but championships.

It's a hard comparison to make because Fangio was gone before the mid-engine layout became the future. Either way both were tremendous champions who set the bar for how a F1 driver would be judged in the future.

The other thing that I think warrants a consideration in determining a great driver is, were they consistently fast? Some guys only show(ed) up for certain circuits, or in certain conditions while others always did.

Dont get me wrong ... if SV keeps going like this he will be legitimately rated as the best ... Newey car or not.

But not with folks like me who dont care about titles or stats or even wins .... or behind the scenes team building or working with engineers or any of that stuff .... I just like to watch the cars go round and guys push them to the limits.

But I have tremendous respect for SV ... he has amazing focus, he is very intelligent, mature etc... He is also a very good driver ... I just dont think he is skilled at controlling a car more than any other very good driver.... but that's not what he is about. He is about determination, work rate, preparation, mind management etc.... and aside from MS (who has to an extent mentored him) and Prost he may be the best ever at that side of being a driver since I started watching.

He is also a demon at quali... I wish it was still sprint racing to see if he could reproduce those laps consistently.

I'm not hating on SV ... I am just pointing out that Senna really was that good.

I know exactly how you feel. I revere Prost's F1 career in the same way. I have tremendous respect tor Senna, but his style is not my cup of tea, so I don't view his career with the same reverence and awe.

That would also explain why you and I have favored different drivers since that time. Which is cool - there are many drivers, someone for everybody to watch and admire.

I think Ascanelli recognized that. I think that is what makes his comment so informative. He isn't trying to say they are the same in style or that Seb has already reached Aryton's ultimate skill level in only 5.5 years, lol. His point is to draw a similarity that he saw in two champions he worked with that he felt was a component of their success.

That nonsense with SV being outshone by MW at the start of the season before they gave him back his rear downforce would never have happened to LH or FA .... those are the guy you compare SV to - he is not in the same category as Senna... and its arguable he isnt even as good as LH and FA.

I don't want to be nitpicking too much, but a) Webber had better qualy results than Vettel initially, but in the races Vettel was on top b) it was not just about downforce, but about predictable car behaviour and c) LH or FA also have races in which are they are merely very good but not special (LH in 2011, FA first half of 2010). All of them are remarkably consistent and strong actually - so far I wouldn't rule out that the current years will be seen as another golden era in the future with all 3 of them compared to the likes of MS, Senna, Prost, Clark, and Fangio. Of course, we will only know at the end of their careers and I think statistics do matter in that respect.

1st. Your stats are wrong. Senna completed five and a half season in 1989 not 88 so he had plenty more wins and one WDC.

2nd. I posted a overview of Senna (till his 101 race) and Vettel's career a few pages back to make a better comparison. Here they are if you missed.

3rd. "Has anyone actually given a proper reasoning to why Senna is better than Vettel?" Indeed I had, soon after I posted the stats that you can see above.

4th. You post things like this one

but the only ever argument you gave in this topic to show Vettel is equal/greater than Senna was that Vettel has more WDC. Still for this same measures Senna is greater than Alonso and Hamilton, but you think Alonso and Hamilton are better than Vettel and Vettel better than Senna. Really?

I agree with you and your stats look good but I hate stats they cloud judgement because there is always something missing in the figures, something important, you can go on forever. I mean look at the mechanical failures out of Senna's control that makes him look far superior with all that in hand. The era's are too different for any stats though all I know is that Senna did things compared to his competitors that only he could do, he was head and shoulders above the rest of his peers whereas Vettel is just settled into the one of 6 champions that were on the grid this year. Look how much faster Schumacher was when his car was working at the start of the season and apparently he's useless and has lost it.

The era's are too different for any stats though all I know is that Senna did things compared to his competitors that only he could do, he was head and shoulders above the rest of his peers whereas Vettel is just settled into the one of 6 champions that were on the grid this year.

In the 2000's, when MS was in the midst of his run of 5 WDCs and being compared to Senna, the fact that there were no other WDC on the grid weighed heavily against MS.

It's not 'utter rubbish' at all, or are you suggesting Senna was immune to aging? I'm not arguing that Vettel is better than Senna, but I'm pretty weary of the Senna was an immaculate deity bullshit. He was an extremely talented and somewhat enigmatic character, but he was flawed just like anyone else, both on and off the track, and would unquestionably have become slower and made more mistakes as he aged. As for the the spiritual obsession; I get Jehovah's Witnesses at my door every other month talking twaddle about Noah's big boat or stretching the menu at parties, but I don't put them on a 3000ft pedestal because they claim to know God, so why should Senna be any different?

The guy was a fantastic driver and interesting character, no question, but the objective bottom line is that he had already been beaten before and would have been beaten all the more had he continued racing toward his 40s.

Firstly I wasn't replying to you.Secondly there is little point in repositioning my view that Senna was better than Vettel as "deity bullshit", its an underhand tactic that undermines your opinion, not mine. My view is that he was amazing, whilst he was still alive. I didn't form that view after 1994.Thirdly, precisely part of my opinion is in full agreement with you. That it is a question of time. Vettel if you like is "on schedule" to be considered as good as Senna, but he's not done enough yet (particularly beat a top rival in the same car), but I'm sure this will happen eventually. Just be patient. I'm just against calling his "arrival" at the greats table, too early. He's not got enough great moments on his CV yet. He has the statistics, not the context if you will.

As I've just clarified for Group B, that is exactly my case, Winter98...!

What I'm saying is he's not as good as Senna yet as he doesn't have enough in the way of "great moments/victories" on his CV yet, but he is on schedule to have.

So where Ascanelli says he "is" as good as Senna. I'm saying he may well "end up" being...

Its an emotive Sport. He really does need a good old ding dong rivalry with someone and a properly fought out championship. 2012 for instance, was all a bit village cricket compared to the fireworks of Senna v Prost.

I agree, although on abilities Ascanelli seems to thing they are on a par. For me, I think Vettel needs to win 2 more WDCs (I give Senna credit for 4.5 - 5 WDCs )

I like your assessments, Winter98 - the Canadian nobility shining through. Although we do not agree on Alonso - in my estimate Alonso is the stronger driver than Vettel (although we can count ourselves lucky to have two such supreme drivers racing right now, and another, third one (Hamilton) not so far behind them, at least on 2012 form) - I like the respect that I feel in your posts, also in regard to Senna (who can say if he still had a total of 4, 5 or even 7 championships still in him, probably at Williams alone he would have scored three).

Another interesting parallel between Senna and Vettel: Ayrton always planned to conclude his career driving for Ferrari, which he wanted to do after his Williams stint. Both in Senna's and in Vettel's mind it is imperative for a driver to drive once in their life for Ferrari - I cannot agree more on this.

So where Ascanelli says he "is" as good as Senna. I'm saying he may well "end up" being...

To clarify the matter once again: Ascanelli never said Vettel "is" as good as Senna. He spoke metaphorically, counting himself lucky and saying that at the beginning of his own career and at the end he has been "touched by perfection".

It was my mistake back in 2010 to copy the headline of an article on Autosport: "Vettel is as good as Senna, says Ascanelli" as the title for this thread, so it is still misleading people. On the other hand, had the thread title (and the Autosport article!) been called:"I have been touched by perfection at the beginning and at the end of my career", says Ascanelli - many people would not have taken note.

Another interesting parallel between Senna and Vettel: Ayrton always planned to conclude his career driving for Ferrari, which he wanted to do after his Williams stint. Both in Senna's and in Vettel's mind it is imperative for a driver to drive once in their life for Ferrari - I cannot agree more on this.

How could Vettel go to Ferrari? They have a clear #1 and #2 driver policy, and Vettel obviously won't go there if he knows his gearbox seal will be broken to improve Alonso's chances. The same applies to Alonso accepting the #2 driver position.

If Alonso still hasn't won a WDC or WCC when Vettel's contract with RBR is up, do you think Ferrari will dump Alonso in favour of Vettel?

How could Vettel go to Ferrari? They have a clear #1 and #2 driver policy, and Vettel obviously won't go there if he knows his gearbox seal will be broken to improve Alonso's chances. The same applies to Alonso accepting the #2 driver position.

If Alonso still hasn't won a WDC or WCC when Vettel's contract with RBR is up, do you think Ferrari will dump Alonso in favour of Vettel?

I can clearly see Vettel joining Ferrari down the line, a few years hence. Alonso may not be at Ferrari anymore at that time (maybe he will be at Red Bull ). Also, concerning Marko trying to destabilize Ferrari with his Hülkenberg rumors (sorry, I know, this belongs in the other thread) - who is to say that Luca di Montezemolo was not all the way trying to destabilize Red Bull?

Alonso at Red Bull could very well happen when Seb goes to Ferrari and maybe by that time Alonso will have more WDCs than Seb....anyway, to me there is a greater similarity between Senna and Alonso (as I start to see an ever greater similarity between Vettel and Schumacher), although Ascanelli must have seen something in Senna and Vettel that he did not even see in Schumi (he did not say:"I was touched by perfection in the middel of my career"....)

as I start to see an ever greater similarity between Vettel and Schumacher), although Ascanelli must have seen something in Senna and Vettel that he did not even see in Schumi (he did not say:"I was touched by perfection in the middel of my career"....)

I love this quote by Ascanelli as I think it really shows that a lot of the work F1 drivers do are under appreciated by the viewing audience. My interpretation is that both Senna and Sebastian had a unique understanding and connection to their cars, making them that much better from a racing engineer's perspective. After all, Senna and Sebastian's driving style differ quite a bit, yet they acquire similar results (poles, wins, championships, statistics). Therefore, I suspect it is the engineering side which makes them closer to 'perfection' and helps them in becoming F1 champions.

For example, I often make fun of Jenson Button's "no grip" or "no balance" comments, but from the fact that Hamilton often has to heed Button's set-up changes, and his care for tyre wear, I am pretty sure Button is quite good in a behind-the-scenes sort of way. Yet Hamilton often overshadows him by just being more aggressive on track, and Button's hard work during free practice is overlooked and put down to the car. So I think when team members speak out and say their drivers are good with their technical feedback (the way Schumacher was), we should also give some recognition to that and not just what happens on track.

I love this quote by Ascanelli as I think it really shows that a lot of the work F1 drivers do are under appreciated by the viewing audience. My interpretation is that both Senna and Sebastian had a unique understanding and connection to their cars, making them that much better from a racing engineer's perspective. After all, Senna and Sebastian's driving style differ quite a bit, yet they acquire similar results (poles, wins, championships, statistics). Therefore, I suspect it is the engineering side which makes them closer to 'perfection' and helps them in becoming F1 champions.

For example, I often make fun of Jenson Button's "no grip" or "no balance" comments, but from the fact that Hamilton often has to heed Button's set-up changes, and his care for tyre wear, I am pretty sure Button is quite good in a behind-the-scenes sort of way. Yet Hamilton often overshadows him by just being more aggressive on track, and Button's hard work during free practice is overlooked and put down to the car. So I think when team members speak out and say their drivers are good with their technical feedback (the way Schumacher was), we should also give some recognition to that and not just what happens on track.

Yes. I mentioned Hamilton heeding Button's set-up but never specifically a single season or a a certain period. And just because Hamilton takes pointers from what Button does for his car does not necessarily mean he copies everything. He can just pick and choose whichever he thinks is required, which may lead to incidences when he chose wrongly (the point you tried to make).

Keep on underestimating him. That's why he keeps winning. Hamilton/Alonso will have some more surprises in the future. I remember Alesi trading places with Schumacher in 1996. Alesi and Berger used to praise 1995 Benneton saying it was so much better than the others. When they picked it up for the first test in 1996 they were shocked has it was a very dificult car. They won nothing that year and Schuey won 3 GP's in the Ferrari.

Make no mistake, Vettel is the best and while others try to diminish that they are facing the wrong rival.

Is he as good as Senna? In talent yes. But Senna was better in the wet. Lets see how next few years go.

That comparison might work if Vettels team mate, a classic journeyman, and one of the oldest drivers on the grid, also didn't consistently have front running pace, which proves Vettel is not making the difference like Schumacher and Alonso, and that the car really is the benchmark. If anyone has seen Senna race and other greats, like Schumacher and Alonso, them it should be extremely clear Vettel is not in the same class.

1. Consistency.

He is too often out paced by his journey man team mate, often for long periods, which is something that does not happen with the true great drivers. When they get outpaced its a rare thing, while with Vettel its extended periods. True great drivers would never be trailing mark webber on points until Spa like Vettel did last year.

2. Vettel cannot adapt to a car, he requires a specific handling characteristic to be fast otherwise he is mediorce and comfortably beaten by the likes of Webber. This is something widley acknowledged by Vettel himself and the team, so its not even in dispute, and is the main reason he lacks consistency and the true talent of the greats, who could adapt and be fast in anything. They were not helpless and at the mercy of the cars handling. Its amazing that you consider his talent equal to Senna with this in mind.

3. He really is not that fast. Apart from 2011, Webber is generally very close to Vettel on pace especially in qualifying, which makes a mockery of the idea that he is Senna fast or even on the same planet. Vettel was out qualified 11 times by one of the oldest drivers on the grid last year, almost as many times as Senna had been out qualified his whole career, or Alonso in the last 6 years.

So many people ignoring these major flaws and just get carried away by his statistics provided by having the fastest car for the majority of his career. That's really not that impressive for an experienced F1 observer. He is simply doing what the likes of Mansell, Hill, and Jaques Villeneuve did, for an extended period of time because he had their machinery for much longer. Sadly this charade might continue for a lot longer because Vettel is clearly not the type of driver interested in a real challenge or test. He thinks greatness is about numbers only, so he will be happy to sit in the best car forever, with a journeyman number 2, winning a lot, and thinking he has earned greatness when he never will. He might eventually be exposed if he went up against a top line team mate in a not so perfect car without Marko watching his back but I highly doubt he will ever allow that to happen.

Winning races and titles in the fastest is nothing special. Vast numbers of drivers in history have accomplished this. That is one point that needs to be remembered. Ascanelli can say what he wants but none of his words can change the clear weaknesses in Vettels driving that Senna did not have.

I don't think he his in a different level, but he's a bit better than the others. Add to that he has the time on his side and has already 3 world championships. A talented guy can luck into one [Villeneuve, Button, Kimi, Rosberg, Hunt...]. When a guy wins 3, specially at his age, it's no coincidence anymore. His speed is blistering and his race pace already at the level of the best [Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton]. He needs to improve a bit in the driving among the field and stop whining when things don't go his way. But all the others have their flaws: Ultimate speed [kimi, Alonso, Button] Consistency [Hamilton, Button, Webber, Massa]. Whining [Alonso] Making silly mistakes [Hamilton], not able to adapt to little details [Kimi]

It's never about co incidence or luck, its about the fastest and best car. Villenuve , Button, Hill, Kimi won titles because they had clearly the best cars, which is the same reason Vettel is winning. The only difference is that Vettel having the best car for a much longer time than the others. Also, how can you think he's a bit better than the others when he only beat Alonso by 3 points last year with a clearly superior car? Or in 2010 again clearly superior even if you factor in slightly less reliable. It makes no sense.

For good or bad, that is the way history works. To make it into the top group of greats, you have to have the monster stats to back it up. Vettel has that with three WDCs, and has accomplished something only Fangio and MS managed: Three on the trot. His legacy is guaranteed.

Alonso has 2 WDCs, and Hamilton has 1. As it currently stands, they are going to be remembered in the second tier. Of course, if they can add more WDCs to their resumes, or manage one of the top winning percentages, their stock will rise. But as it sits now, historically Vettel will be considered in a higher group.

Piquet won 3 titles, yet he is rated a tier below Jim Clark by most people. I guess your theory does not hold up.

Alonso is widely regarded as the best driver on the grid, and one of the best of all time, by the majority of the paddock and fans, which flies in the face of your opinion. If greatness was purely judged by statistics then you would have a point but educated fans understand there is much more to it, which is why Moss is rated as a great with no titles. If what you say is true then every driver would be second tier compared to Schumacher, and driver ranking would simply be determined by statistics.

I was pointing out that I don't buy the argument that the RBR was necessarily superior to the Ferrari in 2012. That is pure conjecture.

A great driver can make all the difference, and as I see it, Vettel did that this year by clinching the WDC. I think it's fair to say Alonso is threatened by Vettel's skill, or else he never would started all this "I'm racing Newey" nonsense, and would have let his driving do the talking. This is why this this thread is comparing Vettel to Senna, and not Alonso.

Its stunning to read something like that. I guess you don't care that the vast majority of the F1 world believed the Redbull was clearly faster than the Ferrari. Or that an analysis showed the Ferrari was 4th quickest car on race pace over the year. Or that the Redbull was considerably quicker than the Ferrari in 15 out of 20 races. That's not conjecture its a fact. Of course you can try to argue that a great driver makes the difference, but in this case it fails terribly because Vettels' team mate, one of the oldest drivers on the grid, also managed to be extremely fast all season, despite a poor title position. Again this totally under mines the notion Vettel is making the difference.

Another problem is that Webber was also faster than Alonso last year, so you must also think that Webber is a faster driver than Alonso and 'made the difference'. Another problem is that the speed gap between Webber and Vettel was smaller than it was between Alonso and Vettel , which again according to your logic means Webber is faster than Alonso. I doubt anyone really believes that even you, and it does Vettel fans no favours when they decend to these levels of absurdity and try to deny his car was much faster than the F2012 despite all evidence pointing to that conclusion. We all understand why you do it though, because you have no choice, considering Alonso finished only 3 points behind Vettel. If he did that in even a slightly inferior car let alone significantly, then it blows the idea that Vettel is as good , or better, out of the water. So you have to resort to stuff like this. I find it quite sad really.

Alonso is far from threatened by Vettels skill, he is just frustrated at being beaten by an inferior driver because of superior equipment, which is why he brings up the car advantage which is exactly what Michael Schumacher did with Hill in the mid 90s, when he openly criticised Hills driving ability calling him a number 2 driver and saying how much better his Williams were.

All your arguments consist solely of Vettels statistics, no deeper analysis. That is extremely shallow and deceiving.

One more thing to consider is that Vettel managed to beat Alonso by just 3 points. !!! I wonder how big of a margin Alonso would have get on Vettel if he would have been able to score points in Spa and Japan , it would have been an embarrassment to lose to a guy in a clearly inferior car

One more thing to consider is that Vettel managed to beat Alonso by just 3 points. !!! I wonder how big of a margin Alonso would have get on Vettel if he would have been able to score points in Spa and Japan , it would have been an embarrassment to lose to a guy in a clearly inferior car

This is the big point. If Vettel really is so good and special, why did he only beat Alonso by 3 points with such a clearly superior car? What would have been the result if Alonso had been driving that Redbull? Does anyone really believe Alonso would have scored less points? Vettel's driving simply does not match the rhetortic given to him. Not even close. He should have cakewalked the 2012 season not struggled behind his old team mate until Spa until the team once again developed the car to suit his specific needs and it became the fastest. What is so impressive about that seriously?

If you want to compare Vettel to another driver then compare him to Mika Hakkinen. Both absolutely relied on Newey for success, and both had zero success without him. Both made hard work of winning titles with the best car against true great drivers. Thats why Vettel is another Mika not Senna. Just like Mika he relies on perfect Newey cars to be fast, and when he does not have it, he is beaten by his journey man team mate. Its history repeating, and just like back then, despite Mika winning multiple titles, and Michael no titles for 5 years, it was very clear Michael was still by far the superior driver.