90% of the 2.26 million Catalans who voted on Sunday voted in favour of independence, according to preliminary results released by the region’s government. The region has 5.3 million voters. Officials said 770,000 votes were lost due to disruption which resulted in polling stations being raided by Spanish police.

Carles Puigdemont, Catalan’s leader, announced in a televised statement that the region had earned the right to become an independent state and that results would be passed the region’s parliament in the coming days.

This video of Madrid thugs stomping on people attempting to vote is worth a replay

Catalonia says 'Yes' to independence from Spain with %90.09 of the vote. Around 80% of polling stations managed to stay open. pic.twitter.com/yHqCYl0fXw

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118 thoughts on “Mariano Rajoy, You are a Disgrace to Spain and the World, Please Resign: Catalonia Has Spoken Loud and Clear”

Hey Sleekster, I think you’ve got a typo there… should read “Though the mills of Gov grind slowly; Yet they grind exceeding small; Though with violence he stands waiting, With exactness grinds he all.”

Indeed, that could very well be next. Seeing the police using real bullets would not be surprising in the least.

Odd as this may seem, those who get their news from MSNBC will remain entirely unaware of this for sometime into the future. If you search their website for Catalonia, all you get in a 2011 article about Homer Simpson and a 2016 article about the 80th anniversary of the Spanish Civil War. This is remarkable, amazing, and sad. Regardless of how one feels about the situation in Catalonia, no one can deny that it is news. How can MSNBC possibly justify pretending it is not going on? Every other news service I checked has pages of stories about it.

Yes, I know that in a recent survey, MSNBC had the highest percentage of opinion, and the lowest percentage of actual news of any news service, but until now it never dawned on me that they omit the news entirely.

For the sole purpose of comparing coverage by different “news” media. Prior to the comparison, it never dawned on me that anyone even pretending to provide news coverage would totally miss a story like this.

Catalonia seems united in their dislike of Madrid and Rajoy (not a surprise)… but we don’t know what they are for instead. Now that they have “won” their revolution / rebellion, the hard work of governing the new country will begin.

This is why Trump should not endorse Catalonia (nor condemn it). We don’t know what it is going to be — its not clear the Catalonians know themselves.

Rajoy is a thug, and a huge liability for the EU (there are problems for the EU whether they endorse Rajoy or condemn him — either way the EU loses). Hopefully Spain gets a new leader, but the damage to the EU is done.

Meanwhile, Catalonia is a huge giant question mark. Jumping to conclusions and supporting Catalonia, when Catalonia can’t define themselves, would be a huge mistake for Trump or PM May (or any leader). Let Catalonia define themselves (without interference) before saying anything.

That doesn’t mean we can’t all condemn Rajoy for his Soviet style crackdown. It just means we have to wait and see on Catalonia.

If you want to understand Spanish nationalist reasoning it is very simple, and reajusts the understanding of the whole picture. Obviously no-one who is not nationalist will understand this, but I put it down anyway, in order of priority :

1. There will be no secession, Spain is a single nation.
2. Anyone trying to secede knows this ( and they do know this point of view).
3. By attempting to secede therefore, knowing that it will not be allowed, they know that Spain will punish them for trying and for causing disorder.
4. Therefore they are responsible for Spain’s actions, they litterally asked for them.

So it is a matter of national pride, and they could not care less what anyone else outside thinks they know, or how right they feel they are. They also consider the existing constitution as a very fair compromise on the part of their nation, so if people err outside of it then the gloves come off, to martial law if need be.

So the “clever people” who think they can manipulate Spain had better think again, no matter how much influence they think they have, unless they want to be responsible for civil conflict and military exception. Rajoy is by no means “the worst”, he is no saint, he is a lawyer strongly grounded in national hierarchy, in a clan based party reality.

If he is “overthrown”, then more extreme elements will make themselves known. Roughly a third of the country is strongly nationalist, a third “republican”, and the rest whatever.

So before anyone thinks to dally in Spain’s circumstance, they should keep the above in mind, as it really is not a game. It is obviously not a game for many Catalans either. Hence the difficulty.

Rajoy is a thug, and it doesn’t matter if he was a “lawyer” before that. Being a lawyer proves nothing. He is still a thug.

I was not trying to understand the Spanish “nationalists” (are they the ones subjugating themselves to Brussels?).

My point was and still is that we know nothing about the Catalonians. From quotes in international newspapers, some of them are clearly socialists. That will end in economic suffering no matter what excuse they try to give. Always has, and this time won’t be different. Other Catalonians apparently are against sending resources to the capitulators in Madrid (and Brussels). A large number don’t seem to have any plan at all.

I can’t be “for” that, mostly because there is nothing to be for or against.

But I can’t support a bunch of spineless weasels who appease whatever dictats are handed down from Brussels. And if the “nationalists” (who kneel before Brussels) are willing to beat up their fellow Spaniards, they aren’t worth supporting.

Are a bunch of old ladies trying to vote a threat? How strong can Spain be if old ladies are mortal threats? And then they mow down a line of firemen who try to protect an unarmed crowd? Seriously?

When Spain was having its yields spike and ZP was in the hot seat, and everyone is wtf to do, I was hoping he would choose out of Euro, it was the only way I could see a return to some decent order. He chose not, went for compliance and gimmicks , failure and he was out.

Now Rajoy is in the same hot seat. He is thinking that Spain has levelled economically, is tying big deals, under the rug is another day, he has brought some discipline to society ( by force of law), that Cataluña is out of line, that he is grounded by the constitution to reclaim the territory ZP exchanged for power, that he can fuse an outcome by law and by force, including his EU associations.

And again I am thinking :

The only real way out of this is to bring back national monetary control, to balance power that way, not by the force of the constitution, that if he does not start from a sound national basis he cannot succeed in the way hoped for. Instead Spain will be played and weakened, one way or the other, still having to go by compromise in the EU “market” of finance and politics. Maybe he sees that as acceptable, to a greater future that is a compromise, but he is imagining if he does not think one day an “alien” politics will not act to completely disassemble anything that resembles the Spain he believes in, undemocratically and against the ability of the Spanish to counter that. Maybe a standoff with EU now will be the catalyst, or maybe it will turn very miserable, or maybe it will become another “acceptable” sell out where everyone “wins” . Who is to say.

You say ” Now that they have “won” their revolution / rebellion, the hard work of governing the new country will begin.” Say what? This is surely only the beginning of a civil war, a war that I have my doubts that they can win by passive resistance.

I wonder, in our interconnected world, whether the rights of states are becoming less relevant. Originally the rise of states protected and brought individual human rights to the fore – especially in western societies. Today states and the institutions once trusted have become progressively more corrupt and captured by vested power plays, maybe its time for civil society to reorganize and exert the authority of conservative governance models like the old guilds and local councils where people directly affected by change can have a say.

The further our species moves from our development background the more stressed we and our groupings become.

We developed in tight knit smaller communities etc. etc. and where everyone had a role. Role (meaning) is very important and in overly large groupings where labour is commoditised or replaced meaning suffers and so do people and social cohesion.

In where we developed from lies some indication of where we would be best heading to improve our societal and individual well being.

Rajoy is no different than any other head of state in any other Western “democracy”.
He has just had the misfortune to have shown his true colors before any of the others.
They are ALL the same, as the people will soon find out – the hard way.

He works with Spanish nationalist identity that de facto exists in the country, he is tied in loyalty to it. He is also compromised at EU level.
Spanish nationalists have utter contempt for EU, barely recognise it. Rajoy and the PP are tied into EUPP and his position in government takes him straight into EU framework of power. Not that hard to understand.

If you look at his dealings with EU, they have always been to at least maintain an impression of Spanish political independence… bailouts that weren’t bailouts etc. Exactly where he really stands? I think he is closer to Spain, and that he uses recourse to the constitution and law to emphasise that, as well as to shield or balance his nationalist actions at international level. Constitution does not make him a libertarian though….Spain has always swung quite hard from left to right and back… liberal centre is for miow miows. Left was always chaotic with the right reinstalling order. Post dictatorship constitution was best balanced so far till EU dug its claw. Late so tomorrow :-).

During WW2, most of Europe’s “Nationalists” voluntarily submitted to the Germans…. Contemporary Nationalism, like all progressive ideologies, is just smoke and mirror symbolism for “I’m Leader, Rule of Law and labor organizer; you shut up, submit and labor!” Siding with someone they perceive strong enough to help subjugate their own underlings, are par for the course for all of them.

So if you look at approval ratings, the Guardia Civil is highest (@60%), then well below is government, and Rajoy etc.

The country knows what the “fascist” right is ( I put fascist but mostly it is dictatorial) , they know what it means in real terms. It is a known, not only because they have experienced it, but because the rules of play are simple, familiar. If you “behave” you have nothing to fear and a lot to gain.

So you have this tension running through society, sometimes more background , sometimes up front, like in Cataluña. It is part of Spain’s axis.

Now imagine the political control of this goes off track ( corruption on all sides, cession of monetary control, increase in regional power, economic confusion etc. ). You end up with a country poised in confrontation, chaos. You have pseudo-legal bureaucracies set up, technocratic or progressive/socialists sitting in offices applying the pre-existing public force incompetently, maybe purposefully so to antagonise. They do not follow the traditional axis but use it…just as the traditional axis will sell or be publicly obliged to cede its position into some future modern Europeanised state.So you end up with some very bad circumstance, resentment resurfacing, you end up with people being disciplined by their own seemingly unfairly, under the control of those they disagree with traditionally, who over extend their power using the kind of socialist dictate that has appeared in our time. Before the opposing band was relatively harmless and disorganised, also familiar – the traditional Spanish left ( unions, PSOE) were workers and very simple/straightforward in their ways. Now it is become technocratic socialism, progressive, intelligence in power, the traditional band suppressed by the recent discipline installed by PP. Add to this the “American” left, as typified by Podemos, who are active at social level trying by all means to overthrow the right, and all of those being influenced by EU, and I think you will understand that the picture is very difficult…and I have only included the most obvious base influences in that picture, it is much more complex still.

Nationalist Spain had some ties with the Germans, the Catholic church also, ratlines were set up in Spain for example to S.America, or Guernica “target practice”, but Spain stayed neutral in the war2 … or did you not notice? It was a balancing act for the country, as others had to also.

Next will be what does Rajoy do when Catalonia declares independence in the next few days? Will he send in the military like Franco did? Then comes the tough part – how does Catalunya actually implement secession with an intransigent Madrid. We see how hard Brexit is where they have not even got off the starting gates.

Who are the next to demand independence in Europe? The Basque, the Walloons??

If the US experienced another tragedy equivalent to 911 (or worse) most of the Spaniards would probably laugh at us. Most Americans I’ve spoken to who visited Spain were treated like dog squeeze. So I don’t know why I bother supporting either side. I guess I try to look at the situation objectively and take the politics out of it.

The basis for a drive to independence needs moral and logical foundation. President Trump has taken the side of Spain and its leadership with remarks during WH visit, so clearly he believes such foundation does not exist. If Catalunya becomes truly independent, or even achieves the status of Quebec, is Trump once again on the wrong side of history? Conversely, if Catalunya has the moral high ground, then why not Texas, or California for that matter?

No doubt Rajoy’s inept and clumsy violent effort to suppress the vote resulted in a lot of backlash and only strengthened the vote for succession. On the other hand, I would warn the Catalonians to be careful what they wish for. They might get it, and it might not be what they were hoping for.

I like your honesty. The wider implications are there for all to see.Deafening silence from the EU. The British could see it. The EU is naked fascism.
This is revolution. And about time!
Rajoy is a criminal.

Life is rich with ironies. Ironically the Germans run a pretty darn good economy. They have like 1500 small local banks that fund thousands of small and medium sized businesses. They avoid Minsky type credit bubbles by applying common sense valuations to collateral based on expected rents and cash flows. Their one blind spot is export markets. They literally can’t understand why everyone can’t run chronic trade surpluses like Germany does. You have to laugh until you cry at this.
Anyway, this is at the bottom of the Catalonia crisis, the Greek crisis, the Italian crisis, the Spanish crisis, and more. And so we are entering “Oh well”, mode. Strap in buckos, it’s gonna be a wild ride.

1. Many of those deficit countries have large coastlines to land area. In other words are peninsular and/or islands. And, warm weather and some times hot weather. Do road interconnections have any thing to do with it?

2. If you were in a country that had rapidly diluted currency and a new currency was offered even though low dilution was promised, many might still expect the same to happen. Those folks might still borrow heavily, due to their experience and expectations of the unknowable future to be simmer.

The turnout was 42%, say Catalan officials. On Sunday afternoon, the Spanish interior ministry said police had closed 79 of the 2,315 polling stations set up for the referendum. Earlier,, the Catalan government had reported that, despite the police’s efforts, voting was taking place in 96% of polling stations.
”

This is no clear at all for me, and very suspect. First because they want to be independent and free, but will remain in the european union. In the same time they claim that they are not spanish, but in every demonstration I see, their signs are in english : are they english or american ?

Simple “reversion to the mean” for Madrid. The Spanish Inquisition lasted almost a thousand years and extended to Latin America. But compared to modern day NATO, France, Saudis, the USA and their bombing of Serbia, Libya, Yemen, etc., Spain seems almost mellow and restrained in their partial vote suppression efforts in Catalonia. A PR disaster, yes, but Madrid government so far is weak peaceniks compared to USA. Would have been much worse if USA police were tasked similarly. Abe Lincoln and General Sherman would not have been so kind. But, who knows, maybe the real military crackdown is still in the future.

So “the region has 5.3 million voters” and “90% of the 2.26 million Catalans who voted on Sunday voted in favour of independence”. That of course suggests that c. 3.266 million did not vote for independence – but we are to encourage the so-called “self-determination” of the minority anyway, and mainly because we are a bit squeamish about unexceptional police crowd control measures?

What I fail to understand is how the arithmetic is seen as compelling. 700,000 (alleged) votes x the same 90 per cent. in favour suggests an extra 630,000 votes to add to those cast in favour of 2,034,000 (90 per cent. of 2.26 million), thus giving a total of 2.664 million which is close enough to 50 per cent (50.26%) to suggest that given we are dealing with round numbers and estimates it is not a certain enough basis upon which to proceed. Add the actions of the “thousands of goons” that I speculate may have provoked some “no” voters to cast their votes the other way, and I really do struggle to understand your assurredness of view.

But in this case the electorate were told voting was illegal and they should not participate. It is not unreasonable given the circumstances of this referendum to suppose that very many of the “no” voters stayed away from the polls. The circumstances in which the referendum took place were seriously enough flawed to suggest its apparent result is not a sound basis from which to proceed to usher in very substantial and likely irreversible change.

“But in this case the electorate were told voting was illegal and they should not participate. It is not unreasonable given the circumstances of this referendum to suppose that very many of the “no” voters stayed away from the polls.”

That is an interesting and good point.

But, what about this? Rajoy appeared to be deterring of more no voters than yes voters, and converting no votes to yes votes! The yes votors less likely to be deterred. Additionally magnifying the yes vote, by convincing people leaning to a no vote to change their mind, with twice the effect! Minus one no and plus a yes is a difference of 2 (yes-no=1-(-1)=2). Thus, giving a result opposite to Rajoy’s alleged goals.

Does Rajoy get to complain about that? Interfering with a pole is illegal, amongst the other crimes.

Why would Rajoy and Spain have helped out the yes vote in such an official manner? Why?

It was reported that 97% of the poles were open and the vote was 90% yes. That means to me most of the poles were clear, 97% of them! If one went to a closed pole one could be welcomed to an other one.

If you search you can find videos of clear peaceful poles some were posted here. The turn out was better than US turn outs’ which are usually < or = 30%. I think it was near 50%?

If it was fair, I think this was one of the most successful poles and land slides in history. It had lots of advertising.

For logical arguments, attacking the person rather than the argument is considered an illogical and false argument.* The voters appeared to be attacked in the press but not really on the whole, as 97% of the poles were open, according the a UK paper. I guess most voters were not attacked.

*That is known as “fallacy of logic.” That can be looked up to learn about it it is a valuable branch of philosophy.

I’m reading through Puigdemont’s parlament address as it goes on now… seems to be backing off immediate declaration of independence, no parlament tomorrow but general strike. He is calling for mediation… think that means EU.

And, and this is the bad part: Agrees to shake down his newfound underlings, in order to make them “pay back” loans taken out, signed for and, as always, summarily wasted; by the same hacks from Madrid they just managed to escape from.

Small update… Rajoy says he will not confront the question of what to do of Cataluña until 10 Oct. , for whatever reason.

People are sort of guessing what next… some saying independence 48 hrs after result officially declared (when official?) … some saying 72 hrs from today… Puigdemont saying it is not just a button to push and achieve, mediation necessary….

So it is open, but there are strikes planned from tomorrow… and there will be political moves taking place somewhere or other.

The leaders of Catalonia should have had a game plan prior to this. Just because you declare independence does not mean you are a member of the Eurozone. Like Greece, the EU can just cut off international trade in Euros with banks in Catalonia. Which, in fact, are Spanish banks, not Catalonian banks.

You can’t become independent without having your own currency and a plan to make it work for your population. If you attempt to simply declare your independence, you will be crushed. And become a total fool to your population.

All Spain has to do is declare a freeze on the access of Catalonians to their money in Spanish banks. Catalonia will crumble just like Greece.

First business of the day must be to stop tax remittances to Madrid. Keep the money in Catalonia. For hiring local police and a local security apparatus with less confused loyalty, as well as keep critical infrastructure running. If those aren’t handled locally, you’re not really independent.

Spanish banks freezing deposits, should be met with invalidating all loans to Spanish banks. Ditto for EU countries’ banks following suit. Like anywhere else on planet earth by now, there’s no shortage of bankers locally, who could quickly handle what banking is needed.

As for currency to tax in, just pick one. Gold would be ideal, but Euro, Dollar, Sterling, Yen, Pesos or Swiss Francs would work too. Heck, even Bitcoin, although that may be a bit on the risky side.

As long as the Catalans can produce something of value, they’ll find someone willing to trade them some convertible currency in exchange for it.

Also questioning why Catalonia can’t exist on its own. If they stay in the EU I don’t see how they lose out on trade. They might even save money by not having to contribute to a military budget. With Spain on one side and France on the other, they may be able to get away with a basic police force.

Part of the US once voted for independence, and became a separate country.

The US wasnt very tolerant of it then, and wouldnt be now either. You DO NOT have right to anything you want, unless you are able to aquire it via force. Period.

They dont have the right to vote for independence, and even if do have no way to aquire it without the force to do so.

Dont overlay some democratic ideal that doesnt exist over reality. There is no self determination. Which is why we protect the 2nd amendment vigorously here. Intelligent people are willing to die to keep the right to bear arms agains their own goverment.

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