Imagine for a moment that any car you can buy from a regular
dealer
comes "preloaded" with a special filter that only allows you to
use
the MicroCough-brand fuel, "Runz(tm)". The purchase contract
says
if you are not willing to use the filter with "Runz(tm)", you
should
contact your dealer for instructions on how to return the filter
for
a refund. Since this filter must be replaced periodically at a
cost
of around $100, you know how much you should get back.

Although MicroCough fueling stations are everywhere, Runz(tm)
is
expensive and, worse, Runz(tm) frequently causes your car to
stall in
traffic. Now, suppose you have your own supply of fuel which
_never_
causes a stall. You ask your dealer for a refund, to no avail.
It's
so hard to get them to pay that some people advise you just to
take
the filter off and throw it away, despite the promise in the
contract.
Since it is really MicroCough who placed the refund promise in
the
contract, doesn't it make sense to approach MicroCough directly
to
exercise your clearly-specified legal right to a full refund?

--------------------

Imagine for a moment that any camera you can buy from a
regular
dealer comes "preloaded" with a special winder that only works
with
the MicroPhots-brand film, "Snaps(tm)". The purchase contract
says
if you are not willing to use the winder with "Snaps(tm)" film,
you
should contact the camera maker for instructions on how to return
the
winder for a refund. Since this winder must be replaced
periodically
at a cost of around $100, you know how much you should get
back.

Although MicroPhots "Snaps(tm)" film is available everywhere,
Snaps(tm)
is expensive and, worse, is brittle so it tends to break while
it's
winding, spoiling your pictures. Now, suppose you have your own
supply
of film and can get a winder for it. You ask the camera company
for a
refund, to no avail. It's so hard to get them to pay that some
people
advise you just to take the winder off and throw it away, despite
the
promise in the contract. Since it is really MicroPhots who placed
the
refund promise in the contract, doesn't it make sense to
approach
MicroPhots directly to exercise your clearly-specified legal
right to
a full refund?

Wednesday we will be shipping out 200 copies of the February
issue to both
Rick Moen (San Francisco, CA) and Deirdre Saorise (Irvine, CA).
We will
also be including some Linux bumper stickers and such.

We will be using UPS, and all deliveries will arive Friday --
Please
confirm that someone will be there to sign for the package at
the
addresses you sent me.

Also, it is not too late to order some copies of Linux Journal
for
distribution at Refund Day activities. Anything planned for
Seattle/Redmond?

This is my contribution to zork.net/refund 's
effort/newsletter and
the upcoming Windows Refund Day on Feb. 15th.

daniel
My 2 bits on the EULA and Gateway:
This is my account regarding the purchase of a new notebook,
the
Gateway Fireant, at the local Gateway Country store, here in
Orlando,
Florida, February 9th 1999, about 12:30pm. Single user, single
system.
Alrighty, from what I gathered from the sales representative at
the
store, it is understood that the cost of the operating system, in
this
case Win98, is included in the total sale price of a system, in
this
case the Fireant notebook.
However, he did make it a point to say that the cost of the
operating system was at OEM price, and not at retail price. The
sales
representative did mention that the OEM cost for Win98, at least
what
Gateway is paying, is about $50, compared to the cost of a
retail
Win98 upgrade at about $90. Well, fair enough...
Now we get to the point of obtaining a system without a
Windows
operating system. According to the sales representative at the
Cow
store, here, it is Gateway's policy, also an agreement between
Gateway
and Microsoft, that the end user is expected to obtain a system,
with
Windows, no exceptions. Therefore, when my question on deducting
the
cost of Windows98 from the purchase price and the question on
the
licensing agreement between the end user and Microsoft and
Gateway
were, in so many words, struck down by the fact of this
agreement
between Microsoft and Gateway, and Gateway policy. Enough said,
so
much for system customization.
An interesting note to those who seek the EULA, if you happen to
be
at some showroom or a retail store where computers are running
Windows
(no surprises there), the EULA can be found in
"c:\windows\license.txt". Of course, you won't be purchasing the
demo
model that is currently running, right? Then again they are
usually
discounted... Of course it is always feasible to work it out with
a
reseller that is willing to waive the Microsoft Tax right at
the
start.

My friend and I are interested in tagging along. We are both
in the market for Linux desktops, but there is little choice out
there.
I don't want to pay for the stupid software when I'm not even
going to
use it. (MS)
Can you give us info on where to meet, and time/place, duration,
etc.
We are both students and wouldn't want to miss our complier
design
class...

Thanks,
Gene Brock
San Jose State U.
BTW...if Office is bundled with the machine, can we get a refund
for that
too?

I'd like to do a follow-up story on the Refund Day effort, for
VNU Newswire
(www.vnunet.com). Just generally get an idea about how the plans
are
progressing, and on what we can expect to see happen next Monday.
I'm
particularly interested in the Bay Area activities.

The first NWS weather outlook for Northern and Central
California for
Monday (Windows Refund Day) is out. So far so good.

Apparently the "storm track" (jet stream) will not be coming
this far
south at that time, keeping the bad weather north of the Bay
Area. But
it's just a long-range outlook right now so keep watching it.

(I wonder if the NWS forecast modeling software could run on
Beowulf. :-)

I prepare a paper on the Feb 15 "Windows Refund" event for the
weekly
high tech supplement of french daily Le Monde.

Could you precise what kind of events you prepare for this
day? I
couldn't find sites on the Feb action outside the US except
France and
Japan (I heard of similar site in The Netherlands). Do you have
such
contact?

Thanks for the article. I understand your position, however,
the consent decree
(found at http://law.tqn.com/library/blconsent.htm)
prohibits per-processor
licensing and instead allows only per-copy licensing (see
4D).

This brings up the obvious question of what happens AFTER the
OEM has refunded
Windows. Ultimately, per my reading, Microsoft must reimburse the
OEM.
Otherwise, they are defacto making it a per-processor license (in
the case of
single CPU systems anyway) rather than a per-copy license.

On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, MikeMillen@aol.com wrote:
>Don Marti gave me the idea of preparing an article for
publication in the
>Windows Refund Day Newsletter. You can find it at http://millen.cc/
>
>If you want to publish it in your newsletter, you are free to
do so. Also, if
>you would like to see the analysis somehow expanded let me
know!
>
>- Mike
>Michael Millen
>Attorney at Law
>12 S. First St., St. 810
>San Jose, CA 95113
>(408) 998-3262
>(408) 971-4580 [fax]
>email: MikeMillen@aol.com
--
_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org
* http://www.deirdre.net
If "Microsoft" is the question, "No, thank you" is the
answer.

At 02:15 PM -0800 02/08/1999, Nick Moffitt wrote:
>Manufactured Consent
>
> by Nick Moffitt
>
> Recently on Slashdot (http://slashdot.org), a purchaser of
Toshiba
> laptops reported that the wrapping on the delivered hardware
contained
> a seal, such that opening the wrapping equates to consenting
to the
> license.
>
> I've been following the recent discussion of refunds on
Microsoft
> software due to refusal of the EULA. Today I recieved a
shipment of
> Toshiba laptops and found there is a sticker saying that you
can't
> even take the computer out of the plastic bag it is in
without
> accepting the EULA. I don't remember that being on there 2
months
> ago, but maybe I just wasn't looking for it then. Seems like
I may
> be stuck with paying for software I never intend to use.
>
> See: http://slashdot.org/articles/99/01/28/097245.shtml
>
> This little eye-roller was the inspiration for this issue's
title
> quote from our mascot. Those of you receiving this in email
can view
> the image at http://zork.net/refund/issuefour.html
with any
> image-capable Web browser.
>
> We here at refund-news feel that this action interferes with
the
> spirit of the EULA as Microsoft intended it. The license is
designed
> so that if you do not wish to use the software, in the words
of
> Microsoft legal affair spokesman Adam Sohn, "there is a
recourse for
> that." If this story is to be believed, Toshiba is tying the
software
> directly to the hardware, which I'm sure was not Microsoft's
intent.

In addition, this is (literally!) a "contract of adhesion,"
and is almost
certainly not enforceable. You might want to look up some cases
(depending
on your state) so that you can have something to say back. It's
very
effective:

Microsoft flack: I'm sorry, you accepted the EULA when you
took
this laptop out of the box.

On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 04:28:07PM -0800, Nickels Moffitt,
King of the Low Rollers wrote:

> Stop! It's a trick by Ian Kluft!

Tabinda mentioned to Ian that she will bring walkie-talkies
for parade
marshals to communicate. And Ian responds with a set of radio
discipline tips. Since you guys as members of headquarters
group
might be using the radio, here they are:

* Make sure squelch and volume are set correctly. Otherwise
you won't
hear calls that you should have. (To set it, turn the squelch
up
until you hear noise, set the volume to a comfortable/usable
level,
and turn the squelch back down just below the point that it cuts
out
the noise.

* Pause for a fraction of a second between pressing the push
to talk
button and beginning to speak. (Many people have a tendency to
begin
talking as they're pressing the switch, and cut themselves
off.

* When calling someone on the radio, the shorthand radio
etiquette is to say
1) who you're calling (i.e. first name)
2) who you are (i.e. first name)
3) briefly what you want
However, when responding to a call that was directed to you, just
answer.

* Unless you know the audio quality is very clear to everyone
receiving
you, use "affirmative" instead of "yes", "negative" instead of
"no".

* It is not necessary to say "over" unless you're on a noisy
frequency
where you can't otherwise tell that a transmission has ended.
Since
FRS uses FM, you won't need to do this.

* Since you're using FM radios, if two people transmit at the
same time,
the stronger/closer signal will "win" and the other won't be
heard at
all. (This is called the "capture effect.")

"Adam Sohn who handled spin for the company when the story
first broke, is
in Washington, presumably dealing with Microsoft's other big PR
problem.
But Sohn is due back in Redmond on - you guessed it - Monday,
February 15.
"

Those of you who oppose the DOJ suit, don't worry; court won't
be in
session on President's Day, so Microsoft will not suffer from a
spin
deficit.

(BTW, I'm assuming computerwire is okay with us publicly
linking to the
story, as opposed to just letting the organizers read it. That's
what you
meant, right?)

> ----- Forwarded message from Jim Carey jcarey@fostercity.org
-----
>
> I'm a Lieutenant with the Foster City Police Department and
will be the
> Watch Commander the day of the Linux/Microsoft event.
Whenever there is a
> planned gathering of a large number of people, the Police
Department likes
> to coordinate with the event planners to avoid crowd control
problems and
> negative impacts on the other citizens of our community.

Lt. Carey called to offer us a crowd location -- the top deck
of the
parking garage across from Microsoft, pending approval from the
office
complex management. The other side of Microsoft is a community
for
the elderly, and when there's too much noise there, the elderly
call
the police. And neither the police nor us wants that.

Oh, and to offer us convenient parking. Foster City, what a
town.

I'm inclined to take him up on this, since we can certainly
say we're
doing what we're told -- Microsoft told us to come in for a
refund,
and the Foster City PD told us to gather on this parking
deck.

Exception: if anyone plans to go limp and be symbolically
arrested,
Lt. Carey requests that they do so in a place where they don't
have to
be carried too far and "give my officers a hernia." We settled on
the
sidewalk immediately in front of the Microsoft building.

So if you plan on getting arrested, please don't strain your
local
police force. Thank you.

I'm a Lieutenant with the Foster City Police Department and
will be the
Watch Commander the day of the Linux/Microsoft event. Whenever
there is a
planned gathering of a large number of people, the Police
Department likes
to coordinate with the event planners to avoid crowd control
problems and
negative impacts on the other citizens of our community.

I would appreciate speaking with either yourself or someone
from the users
group who is designated "in-charge" of this event. I can be
reached at
(650) 286-3321 and will be working Thursday from 7:00 a.m. until
5:00 p.m..

> On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:32:30PM -0800, Rick Moen
wrote:
> > We've been tracking the various incarnations of Adam
Sohn (i.e.,
> > utterances) and other players such as T.R. Reid, in the
summaries on
> > http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html.
> >
> [notes on "there is a recourse for that", and Sohn's
flexible stance]
> >
> > He has now, as LXNY also correctly noted, changed his
mind.
> >
> > Further, one of the top jurists in the USA, Prof.
Lawrence Lessig of
> > Harvard Law, now has stated, in essence, that the claim
for refund
> > by terms of the contract is undeniable. Further, he
goes on to say
> > that the much-criticised UCC 2b draft legislation
would, despite its
> > legitimising of click-wrap licences, actually cement
refund rights
> > into law, so that Microsoft could no longer revoke them
as it did
> > recently in Australia.
>
> My oh my! Rick, would you mind writing up an analysis of
these two
> events for refund-news?
>
> --
> * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has
evolved from
> smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in
front of
> smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk
(obscurity)

Just one point tangential to what is planned for 15 February
1999,
but not for what is planned for 15 March 1999:

Microsoft may "revoke" their license for Australia, which, of
course, was
sent with the Toshiba laptops by sheer incompetent inadvertence,
but they
cannot revoke the strict consumer protection and fair business
practice
laws, regulations, etc., of Australia, the Commonwealth, and all
of the
European Union. I believe that these laws, regulations, etc.,
will
shortly be brought to bear and will end the unfair advantage
Microsoft
presently enjoys at point of sale of 85% of all peecees sold
today.

> Don's counter-strategy of nonetheless walking in, in
naive-user
> mode, and simply asserting one's right to a refund, remains
ideal,
> but we should know in advance what we will almost certainly
hear.

If somebody denies you something, you must have asked wrong.
Ask
again slower, using different words. And be polite. If your OEM
has
already denied you a refund, you're in a better position to do
this,
of course.

> I also expect Microsoft to send out "handlers" from
Foster City
> to our assembly points, to try to deal with us at a
distance.
> I suggest politely declining to deal with them, saying
we'll
> talk to the appropriate parties at 950 Tower Lane, Suite
900.

If you run into them, agree enthusiastically with anything
they say.
Express your appreciation for Microsoft. If they suggest
anything
other than walking to 950 Tower Lane, agree heartily, but add,
"as
soon as we're done picking up our refund checks, which shouldn't
take
long."

On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:32:30PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:
> We've been tracking the various incarnations of Adam Sohn
(i.e.,
> utterances) and other players such as T.R. Reid, in the
summaries on
> http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html.
>
[notes on "there is a recourse for that", and Sohn's flexible
stance]
>
> He has now, as LXNY also correctly noted, changed his
mind.
>
> Further, one of the top jurists in the USA, Prof. Lawrence
Lessig of
> Harvard Law, now has stated, in essence, that the claim for
refund
> by terms of the contract is undeniable. Further, he goes on
to say
> that the much-criticised UCC 2b draft legislation would,
despite its
> legitimising of click-wrap licences, actually cement refund
rights
> into law, so that Microsoft could no longer revoke them as
it did
> recently in Australia.

My oh my! Rick, would you mind writing up an analysis of these
two
events for refund-news?

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved
from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front
of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk
(obscurity)

Rick, Are you considering changing the Feb 15th date to go to
Microsoft's
Foster City office because of the national holiday that day?
(Will MS's office
even be open?)//Laurie Flynn, The New York Times -
415-925-0492

As Contributing Editor, PCWorld India, i wrote the following
piece in my
regular column, which got published in the February 99 issue of
the
magazine in India. You may publish it on your press coverage
website,
provided you do not modify or change it in any way.

please acknowledge.

thanx
niyam

***
Get your money back from Microsoft. Conditions apply.

There's a bomb on the bus. If it stops, or even slows down as
it hurtles
through the morning rush hour traffic, it will explode.

Sure. You remember the movie, 'Speed' starring Keeanu Reeves.
But, do you
remember the advertising signboard at the rear of the doomed bus?
An ad for
a bank, it said, "Money isn't everything. Yeah right." Well,
money is
everything. And reading the fine print could get you a couple of
thousand
rupees from Microsoft. Especially if you read the fine print on
your
Microsoft package carefully.

"If you do not agree to the terms of this [agreement], PC
Manufacturer and
Microsoft are unwilling to license the software product to you,"
according
to a copy of the Windows end user licensing agreement, "and you
should
promptly contact PC Manufacturer for instructions on return of
the unused
products(s) for a refund."

I Want My Money Back
So how does it work? Simple. After purchasing your computer, do
NOT yet
switch it on. Read the Microsoft End User License Agreement
(EULA)
carefully, looking for a clause that is similar to the one above.
Then,
bring along a Linux or other OS system floppy, and preferably in
the
presence of the vendor that sold you the machine, and along with
a few
witnesses, boot up the machine using your Linux, Netware, BEOS,
OS/2, or
other OS floppy, and delete the partition tables of your hard
disk. You
would have then erased the Microsoft OS from your hard disk,
without having
launched it even once. Then, contact the vendor or Microsoft
immediately,
state that you have not accepted the EULA, and ask for
instructions on how
to return the unused manuals and CD so you may get your
refund.

So you think I'm kidding. Go check out
www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html. Here you'll find the
six month
saga of Geoffrey Bennett. This intrepid Australian Linux-user
bought a
Toshiba laptop, and followed a similar procedure to delete his
Windows
installation, and then kept following up with a startled Toshiba
until they
sent him a refund cheque for A$ 110 in August 1998. Immediately
after
Geoffrey updated his website, news travelled around the web and
millions of
people descended on his and other newly spinning websites across
the web on
the refund. To be fair, it was actually a woman called Donna who
got the
first refund, from Canon, almost a year before Geoffrey got his.
But
Geoffrey documented his story well, and even published a scanned
image of
the cheque online. That of course, is like hungry sharks tasting
blood in
the ocean. The scanned image of this historic cheque is eagerly
loading
into thousands of browsers around the world even as you read
this.

Pulling out all the stops
The Windows Refund Center, www.linuxmafia.com/refund/ is
spearheading the
effort to reimburse PC users running a non-Windows operating
system for the
cost of their pre-installed OS. This website has a FAQ, as well
as several
links to press coverage, area-wise centres, and online
newsletter
subscriptions. Several campaigns are especially being waged among
Linux
users and to publicize the movement, these groups have declared
February 15
"Windows Refund Day." Admittedly motivated by the possibility of
a
nice-sized check from Microsoft, the organizers say the larger
goal is to
bring public attention to the open source movement and to
Microsoft's
licensing agreements with PC makers that preclude hardware
vendors from
loading non-Windows operating systems.

"A lot of the people involved want a refund on principle,"
said Matt
Jensen, Webmaster for the Windows Refund Center site and a
Seattle-based
Linux user. "My longer term goal would be to have Microsoft
change its
licensing so they don't force companies to bundle Windows."

I am quite certain that Microsoft, in all fairness, will
refund those
people who prove they did not agree to the EULA. However, it
throws open
the possibility of several unscrupulous people who may demand a
refund
after pirating a copy of the pre-installed software, or demanding
a refund
when they have launched or are still using the software
anyway.
Cross-verifying the computers of thousands or even millions of
people is
going to be costly and full of hassles. A better option is for
Microsoft to
not bundle the software, and let users decide at the time of
purchase.
Surely Microsoft has nothing to worry about, they own nearly 90%
of the
market anyway.

If any one of you has already got a refund in India, or on
reading this is
applying for one, do let us know. I'm sure all readers would be
interested
in your story.

For those in mountain view that wish to get together for
refund day, meet
in the Parking Lot of VA Research Linux Systems, at 1235 Pear
Ave.
Directions to follow.

When: Start Congregating at 9:30am
Leave for the site at 10:00am Sharp

Where: 1235 Pear Ave #111.

>From 101 heading south:

Take the shoreline exit (like you are going to the movies).
Take a left on
shoreline. Cross over 101. Get into right lane and take a right
on Pear
Ave, which is right after the big funky SGI building on the
right.If you
hit a fence, crash through and hit a mobile home, you've gone too
far.

>From 101 heading north:

Get off at the shoreline exit, take a left onto shoreline.
Cross over 101.
Get into right lane and take a right on Pear Ave, which is right
after the
big funky SGI building on the right. Take pear to the end, VA
Research is
in the last set of buildings on the right. (You'll see a sign.)
If you hit
a fence, crash through and hit a mobile home, you've gone too
far.

I'll probably be outside handing out t-shirts, we've ordered
200 of them,
so there should be enough for most. I ahve long dark hair, and am
about 6
feet tall. I'll wear my SVLUG yellow penguin badge, so I'll be
hard to miss.

We'll leave convoy style and head up the the "designated meeting
point"
where we will meet up with our tribe.

Have you given any thought to getting onto Michael Krazny's
"Forum" show
(KQED Radio) WRT Windows Refund Day? This would be a great
tie-in. Not
sure if you want to be the "voice", there would also probably be
some
interest in getting a balanced view from MSFT and/or one of the
VARs
(maybe you could get Augustin to stand in as a VAR
<g>).

I report for a weekly public radio show called Beyond
Computers, produced
in San Francisco and and distributed nationally. I'm gonna come
to
Microsoft in Foster City on Monday to witness and chat with some
of the
people seeking refunds. I'll watch for scheduling information on
your web
page, but I wonder if you can suggest the organizer(s) of this
event most
suitable for a taped interview.

> > I have a question which doesn't appear in your FAQ,
perhaps others
> > are wondering this, too?
> >
> > I purchased my Compaq laptop from CDW. Do I request a
refund from
> > CDW, Compaq or Microsoft?
>
> If you have a look at your EULA, it probably states that
Microsoft
> refuses to licence the software to persons not accepting the
EULA,
> and that they should return it to "Manufacturer" for a
refund.

Actually, I've never seen my EULA, since I never opened the
shrink wrap
the software is in, and don't plan to. In fact, I didn't even
realize
I had it until I was throwing out the box last August and
heard
something rattling around inside. I gleefully reformatted the
disk the
day I got it and never looked back.

You guys really should post a form letter people seeking
refunds can
simply print out and sign. Can you imagine these poor OEMs
sorting
through mounds of hate mail demanding refunds? That's clearly not
going
to get much accomplished. A standard from letter should be
established.
It will undoubtedly speed up processing time, especially since
the
people dealing with these refunds have little or nothing to do
with the
sales agreements with Microsoft.

On a seperate note, the impending deluge of refund requests
will
ultimately aid Microsoft's anti-trust suits. After February
15th,
Microsoft will be able to cite thousands of examples where
people
received refunds - and therefore were not "forced" to use
Windows95/98.
The refund day is a good idea, though, in that it will draw
attention to
the fact that a number of consumers are unhappy, and also that
there
actually do exist other OSs.

Rick Moen wrote:
>
> Quoting Charles J. Lingo (clingo@ihot.com):
>
> > I am a user of IBM OS/2 WARP Connect. In the FAQ it
appears that even
> > though I have never used the forced copy of Win 95 that
accompanied my
> > Acer laptop, I am not really welcome at this event to
get a refund
> > because I am not using an open source operating system.
Is this
> > correct? My shrinkwrap has not been broken, even though
the laptop was
> > purchased almost a year ago.
>
> Charles --
>
> The Bay Area effort reflected on that Web site is
coordinated by
> several volunteers who _correctly_ expected to be swamped by
the
> response from open-source OS users alone. We have, and are
trying
> to shoulder, more work to do in preparing for this event
than we
> can handle. (There is a huge and very active community of
such
> users in the Bay Area.)
>
> The only logical remedy, it seemed to us, was to encourage
multiple
> parallel efforts, to spread the work. That is why the SCO
Unix
> people are organising their user base.
>
> I'm a big fan of Warp 3 and Warp 4, and would love to see a
huge
> turnout of Bay Area OS/2 users. Would you care to establish
a
> Web site, and take care of organising a group visit by OS/2
users?
> You would be doing the OS/2 a community a big favour,
especially
> given the recent collapse of OS/2 Bay Area User Group. If
you do
> not have Web space, I can lend you some, on at least a
temporary
> basis, and you are welcome to borrow and adapt any HTML and
content
> from the http://linuxmafia.com/refund/
subtree.
>
> Please let us know, and we will immediately link to your
page and
> begin sharing with you all information we have. Time is, of
course,
> short, so you will have to move quickly.
>
> By the way, you perhaps did not read the _following_
question and
> answer in the FAQ: Although the persons in our group seeking
to return
> software will be open-source OS users, and we will verify
their
> status as such prior to our collective visit, others who
wish
> to come along, who are not returning software but wish to
show
> their support, are of course welcome.
>
> I am curious, also, about the packaging of your "shrinkwrap"
package:
> In my experience, there is a paperbound book with a CD-ROM
inside,
> with a green licence certificate and activation key showing
on the
> outside, with that entire package then shrink-wrapped. The
problem
> this raises is, of course, that one can use the displayed
activation
> key on the pre-loaded copy of Win9x without breaking the
shrink-wrap.
> This is why I mention in the FAQ that elapsed time since
purchase
> isn't an automatic disqualifier, but that seeking a refund
immediately
> after purchase makes it more self-evidently true that the
software
> is unused.
>
> If I have missed something about the nature of your
"shrinkwrap"
> parcel, please let me know.
>
> --
> Cheers, My pid is Inigo Montoya. You kill -9
> Rick Moen my parent process. Prepare to vi.
> rick (at) hugin.imat.com

Rick,

I should love to do this but I simply don't have the
expertise.
You are correct in your description of the shinkwrap. In Acer's
case, I
believe that you do not need these. It started, if I remember
correctly,
with a form to activate it by answering questions.

I may be hung because I didn't just delete Win95. I used
Partition magic
to shrink the Win95 partition and then install OS/2. I figured
that if
this thing didn't work I could restore it to "as purchased"
condition,
software wise, and return it. To make a long story short, I shall
never
buy another thing with the Acer name on it.

I am a user of IBM OS/2 WARP Connect. In the FAQ it appears
that even
though I have never used the forced copy of Win 95 that
accompanied my
Acer laptop, I am not really welcome at this event to get a
refund
because I am not using an open source operating system. Is
this
correct? My shrinkwrap has not been broken, even though the
laptop was
purchased almost a year ago.

Selling a copy of the software alone seems to be
implicitly
prohibited by the EULA: they say that the licence is only
given to you *on the PC it came with*.
This makes sense formally because the EULA is (ridiculously)
binding you to the *PC manufacturer*, not Microsoft.

This poses another problem, too: apparently, you are not
allowed
to re-use the CD that came with an old PC on a new replacement
machine.

That is a *mayor* field of application of the refund, so we
should
start wondering if the EULA is *legal* after all, but of course
all
this is an orthogonal issue to the current Feb 15 campaign

I propose that the gathering place be in front of the
MacArthur BART
station and that the caravan shall depart at approximately one
hour
before the scheduled march in Foster City.

Further I request the creation of the email address ebay@linuxmafia.com
with a .forward pointer to s_mcneil@earthlink.net.
Please post something
about this asap so that I can gauge the drivers to passengers
ratio and
attempt to fix any discrepancies.

Lastly I propose that I rent a passenger van, paid for by me,
to assist
in the transport of participants.

If I am to succeed in my mission of gathering lots of bodies I
will need
action and assistance from you, my brothers in Open Source.

I really want this WRD to be a big blast, but we only have
five days
until the big event.

Could you announce that the east bay cartel will be meeting at
the
McArthur BART station at 10:30 AM and leaving at 11:00 AM for
Foster
City? (Maybe I am just brain dead, I didn't see a mailing list
for
WRD...)

Could you give me an email address at whatever domain you have
and point
it to s_mcneil@earthlink.net so I
can gauge the drivers to passengers
ratio? I will not pay the money to rent a van unless I can see
that
there is a need for it. (Remember, I'm unemployed...)

How about this for an announcement:

--

Windows Refund Day East Bay Gathering Site
------------------------------------------

The gathering point for WRD will be in front of the McArthur
BART
station.

I propose that the gathering place be in front of the
MacArthur BART
station and that the caravan shall depart at approximately one
hour
before the scheduled march in Foster City.

Further I request the creation of the email address ebay@linuxmafia.com
with a .forward pointer to s_mcneil@earthlink.net.
Please post something
about this asap so that I can gauge the drivers to passengers
ratio and
attempt to fix any discrepancies.

Lastly I propose that I rent a passenger van, paid for by me,
to assist
in the transport of participants.

If I am to succeed in my mission of gathering lots of bodies I
will need
action and assistance from you, my brothers in Open Source.

Have you got enough Marshals for Refund Day? I don't have any
refund
opportunities myself (since I put my systems together from parts)
and
Cisco has a company holiday that day. I'm still embarassed about
getting
thanked by Microsoft after keeping things civilized at the SV Tea
Party.
But I guess that's the kind of help you're looking for...
--
Ian Kluft KO6YQ PP-ASEL Cisco Systems, Inc.ikluft@cisco.com (work)
ikluft@thunder.sbay.org
(home) San Jose, CA

> Anyway, I humbly suggest that we brainstorm a simple,
quotable
> response to give Microsoft and the press in the off chance
that
> Microsoft declines to give refunds.

How about this:

Huh? But it says "refund" right here! Must be some mistake,
I'll
ask again.

The appropriate response to not getting a refund is to be
puzzled,
insist that others are getting refunds, and declare that there
must be
some mixup, because Microsoft couldn't _not_ pay a refund.

> Finally, to those of you who have been talking with
people at
> Microsoft; I'm glad they sound like they'll be reasonable,
but
> there's a chance someone in Redmond may try to catch us
off
> guard. Maybe the people you've talked to, maybe someone
higher
> up. Better to be prepared?

I've been talking with Microsoft people. The only way to be
prepared
for this thing is to have people in the parking lot when the
TV
cameras show up. Windows Refund Day is about (1) lots of people
(2)
asking for a refund to which they are entitled. If we can deliver
(1)
and (2) we win. If we don't, we lose.

>Could you post a pointer to a Web page where this response
of Dell
>appears? If not, could you please make a copy of this article
and I shall
>forward it with an explanation to Joel Klein, head of
anti-trust at the
>United States Department of Justice.

I'm Jason, I volunteered to be a marshal for WRD a few days
ago. I'm =
writing because Rebecca Eisenberg noted in her Net Skink column
=
(http://examiner.com/990207/0207skink.shtml
) that there were rumors of =
a party and parade on WRD. Is one of the CABAL members planning
=
something special? There's nothing listed in the usual places; I
=
already wrote her to try and untangle this.

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"'
name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hey, Rick
-</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm Jason, I volunteered to be a
marshal for WRD a =
few days=20
ago.&nbsp; I'm writing because Rebecca Eisenberg noted in her
Net Skink =
column=20
(<A=20
href=3D"
http://examiner.com/990207/0207skink.shtml">http://examiner.com/9=
90207/0207skink.shtml</A>=20
) that there were rumors of a party and parade on WRD.&nbsp;
Is one of =
the CABAL=20
members planning something special?&nbsp; There's nothing
listed in the =
usual=20
places; I already wrote her to try and untangle
this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;-
Jason</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

I am Toshio Machida, correspondent and bureau chief of NIKKEI
Silicon
Valley Bureau. Nikkei is the leading Japanse business daily( such
as Wall
Street Jounal and Finacila Times) with more than 3 million
subscribers
worldwide. I cover high tech and company news in Silicon Valley,
and aeger
to have an interview( in-person) with whom representing "Windows
Refund
Day" activity. As Microsoft monopoly and Linux-open-source move
is on of
the hottest issue ins Japan as well. We are planning to write a
series of
feature article on Linux on NIKKEI.

Please give me your available time fot the small interview
with 40 or so
minutes. My best time is morning time in early this week. Thank
you in
advance for your attention.

I'm a reporter with 'Computing Canada' and am doing an article
on the
Windows "refund campaign." I would be greatful if you took the
time to
respond to a few questions. I'm on a rather tight deadline so
could you
please send me your response sometime later today or latest by
tommorow
(Tuesday, February 9) morning.
If you email me your responses, kindly also send a copy to my
personal
address: joaquimmenezes@hotmail.com
Alternatively you may phone me at: 1-800-387-5012
Could you also please advise me as to Matt Jensen's and Ralph
Nader's
phone numbers.
Thanks.

Joaquim

The questions:

1. What's the latest on the Windows refund program?
2. Microsoft spokesperson Tom Pilla says PC manufacturers have
never
been forced to bundle the Windows OS with their machines but are
free to
ship "whatever operating system they choose." What's your
response to
this claim?
3. Do you believe this "campaign" will have any longterm impact
-- like
OEMs beginning to market computers without a pre-configured
OS?

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0
transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>Hi:
<p>I'm a reporter with 'Computing Canada' and am doing an
article on the
Windows "refund campaign."&nbsp; I would be greatful if you
took the time
to respond to a few questions. I'm on a rather tight deadline so
could
you please send me your response sometime later today or latest
by tommorow
(Tuesday, February 9) morning.
<br>If you email me your responses, kindly also send a copy
to my personal
address: joaquimmenezes@hotmail.com
<br>Alternatively you may phone me at: 1-800-387-5012
<br>Could you also please advise me as to Matt Jensen's and
Ralph Nader's
phone numbers.
<br>Thanks.
<p>Joaquim
<p><b><u>The questions:</u></b>
<p>1. What's the latest on the Windows refund program?
<br>2. Microsoft spokesperson Tom Pilla says PC
manufacturers have never
been forced to bundle the Windows OS with their machines but are
free to
ship "whatever operating system they choose." What's your
response to this
claim?
<br>3. Do you believe this "campaign" will have any
longterm impact --
like OEMs beginning to market computers without a pre-configured
OS?
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;</html>

to argue why this is relevant in NZ. Others outside USA
may find that they might have had to put up with
similar responses from MS in their respective regions.

Tomorrow, I plan to also advertise on the site and other media
that
"People who want to buy Brand new Microsoft products at a
discount
are welcome to attend the event and snap up some real
bargains.
At any rate, if MS won't take it back, we are free to sell
our
copies to potential MSOS buyers.

You could add more stuff on "implicit consent" and argue over
what can
constitute "implicit consent". You could mention "by reading
this
sentence..."

In particular, what sorts of actions do individuals have the
right to
perform of their own initiative without creating any obligations?
If I
say that someone implicitly agrees to something by performing a
particular
action, under what circumstances is that person being deceptive
or
dishonest by performing that action without intending to be
bound? How
is the answer to this question different (as applied to software
licenses)
if intellectual property

- inherently exists as an absolute right?
- inherently exists as a right to control duplication or
disclosure?
- has been created through a social contract as an absolute
right?
- has been created through a social contract as a right to
control
duplication or disclosure?
- is a fiction and does not exist at all?

Discuss.

How come some authors have e-mail addresses and others don't?
Is that
intentional?

I think a reminder of the existence of Rick's news coverage
page would be
good, especially for the benefit of new subscribers, and to
remind people
that this event is still in the news.

(That might also prompt reporters on refund-news to believe
that this
is true, prompting more articles, etc. News coverage, or the
lack
thereof, is something of a vicious cycle; one might even say "a
positive
feedback loop"...)

Mark Bolzern wrote:
>
> Sorry it has taken so long to respond, I just don't have any
free time.
>
> I think I like the third one down the best, but would choose
the second
> one based on a combination of look/feel and file size. They
all do look
> professional (some a bit fuzzy), and they do make the
point.
>
> It does need to say that we are not a project of
(independent of)
> Microsoft and that "Microsoft & Windows" are trademarks
of MS. If it is
> used on just the home page, then it can say this in text
below the
> graphic, however when used as a banner it cannot. Having a
banner click
> through to the home page, might or might not be sufficient
(anyone
> know?).
>
> Unfortunately there is no graphic involved
>
> Finally, there somehow needs to be a standard banner size
version
> (468x60) of whatever we end up with.
>
> Anyone else care to take charge?
>
> Mark
>

The New York Refund Effort has two definite buyers for Refund
Day. We
have not been able to get any response from Microsoft about doing
the
whole process on their home ground, namely in some large room at
their
New York headquarters on 50th Street and Eighth Avenue. I have
argued
that if they let us do what we want in their room, they will have
a better
chance to tell their side. Here is what we want to do:

1. Buyers take delivery of new machines with Microsoft OS
already
loaded.

2. Buyers boot using a non-Microsoft OS boot disk.

3. Buyers remove every bit of the already loaded Microosft OS
from the
machine.

4. Buyers swear affidavits, need a notary public here, that
they have
never booted the Microsoft OS, and have not copied the Microosft
OS, and
have removed every bit of the Microsoft OS from their machine,
and are
returning to the OEM the disks and manuals of the unwanted
and
will-not-pay-for OS, and request their refund as specified in the
main
clause of the EULA. The affidavits, CDs and manuals, and a copy
of the
EULA will be sent by each buyer using certified insured mail to
his or her
OEM.

5. Buyers install, run, and connect to the net using their
freely chosen
OS of choice!

We hope to have the news organizations record all of this, and
also to
have on hand various government officials charged with helping
oversee
consumer markets.

I think the big stick of Refund Day is the issue of consumer
choice and
fundamental fairness to the consumer, and not directly the issue
of the
"Microsoft monopoly", though it is only one step removed.
Personal aside:
I blame the OEMs more than Microsoft. They should never have
agreed to
per processor licenses circa 1988.

I suggest we declare a Second Refund day of 15 March 1999, at
which we
report on the progress toward a freer market in OSes for the
peecee, and
in the progress toward actual competition for government
contracts for
servers and desktop machines too.

I have informally contacted the New York City Department of
Consumer
Affairs and we hope this week to demonstrate for them a free OS
running on
an intel x86 architecture peecee. (There is a story here, which I
shall
tell soon.) They are in process of buying servers for a 200
machine lan
and I think I have persuaded them to only allow bids by hardware
ompanies
that certify that their hardware is Free OS compliant, ie., no
secret
interfaces that cause the hardware only to work with source
secret
default-by-no-competition OSes. LXNY will shortly announce the
Hardware
Initiative, one of whose efforts will be to get all governement
purchase
orders for peecees to specify that the hardware must be Free OS
compliant.
Anything else is radically anti-free-market.

I have been informed by the US Department of Justice that all
material
realting to the 1995 consent decree, which required the present
EULA's
main clause, should be addressed to Joel Klein, head of
anti-trust at the
Department.

Please don't tell anyone who told you. The son of a good
friend of mine is Tony Claiborne, an intellectual property lawyer
at Gateway. You might want to run a few questions past him.
Interestingly enough, before he got his law degree he worked as a
Unix techie.

I haven't checked it out lately, but Indelible Blue, the major
non-IBM mail order distributor of OS/2 software sold (and
probably still does) desktops and laptops preloaded with OS/2.
Buck Bohack (founder, c.e.o., former Unix guy and U.N.C.phys.
chem. doctoral candidate)told me how he accomplished this:
Indelible Blue would pre-load hdd s with OS/2, ship them to DFI
who'd install the drives and ship the machines to Indelible Blue
for resale. With the general diminution of the OS/2 market,
Indelible Blue branched out to address the Linux market and I'd
hazard a guess Buck's selling Linux preloads these days.

I'll peek at Indelible's website now that I'm finished
here.

Regards,

Bob Wersan

-----------------------------------------------
FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com
Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com

On Fri, 05 Feb 1999, Nathan wrote:
>Im sooooo not up to turning this into a media event. You can
if you want.

Look, there were concepts for *two* events. Two. Meaning one
involving computer
stores (can we actually hold this *IN* Orange County since it's
mostly OCLUG?),
and one involving Microsoft.

The whole *POINT* is to send a consistent message. That would
mean doing
something similar to the events scheduled elsewhere around the
world.

Like it or not, this HAS gotten world-wide attention. There
are similar events
from New Zealand to France.

>While I am sorta the organizer of this thing I am still
from Santa Cruz and
>beleive in empowering you all to take equal share of the
um... "attention"
>(and the work). So while a press conference is a bit
overboard, I dont mind
>anybody calling the press and telling them that we are going
to be at the
>compusa in long beach at noon on the 15th handing out CDs. If
they wanna
>show up and take some pictures, they can. Turning it into
some kind of
>scandalous horror show is up to them, they blow things out of
proportion
>better than anyone.

No, the point is to have the press at MICROSOFT on the
15th.

>I just want to hane out CDs, flyers, etc... and spread
"Linux Awareness"
>while at the same time doing a bit of "under the table"
windows bashing by
>informing people that its a free alternative and that they
shouldnt have to
>pay for something they dont even use. Then they will be shown
the petition
>to to get support for linux from computer system vendors.
Thats it. Just
>shown it, not asked to sign, not pushed.

That's not the point of Windows Refund Day.

>Im afraid that if we do anything else we will get yelled
at and kicked out
>by the CompUSA people.

<rant>
I'm afraid Orange County Lameness has taken over. ::sigh::

Sorry, but I was *really* impressed when I was up in Silicon
Valley. There is a
vibrancy there that simply doesn't exist in Orange County. It's
not the beige
curtain, it's the wet blanket....

Remember that this country's founders fought to the death for
freedom of speech.
</rant>

--
_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org
* http://www.deirdre.net
"Linux is a very complete and sophisticated operating system,"
said
[Paul] Maritz, Microsoft's group vice president for platforms
and
applications. "There are and will be large numbers of
applications
available for it."

I thought I might point out that Windows 98 users are also
affected by this
'microsoft tax'.

The following steps occurred in my case :

1. I bought Windows 98 for the desktop
2. Found I needed NT - so I bought Windows NT for the desktop
3. Bought a new Toshiba laptop which I was going to install
Windows 98 on.
4. Toshiba laptop comes with another copy of Windows 98.

Problem here - all the toshiba utilities and drivers are also
on the same
Windows 98 CD-ROM compressed into one file.

SO I AM UNABLE TO GET A REFUND - AS I NEED THAT CDROM

So here sits one full retail copy of Windows 98 on my desk -
not utilised
at all.

Hi there,
let me just say how impressed I am by the speed and size
the movement has taken (even in France, in 2 days, more then
2000
visitors *before* a major press coverage).

We are looking in details into the legal aspects of the
issue
here: actually, whether the sale of a PC+Windows can be
considered tying, etc. etc.

I'll try to summarize for you in the next few days, but
basically our position now is to ask the OEM for money
and push them to recover they money from MS: we think
several bodies here (like the FTC in the US) could
help. Did anybody get an answer on these issues from the FTC
yet?

I am a user of linux on the powerPC but would like to support
the efforts
of Intel users.
My feeling is: Give the Penguin What's Due.

I would like to help but I need more details on start time,
projected event
length and so forth as Feb 15 is a "floating holiday" at my
company and I
will have to ask for time off and all.
thanks
Edwin

> How does the manufacturer determine what price the
customer paid for
> the item through the agent?

Well, that's up to them. Then they can have a lawsuit over
whether this
price is "reasonable".

Microsoft should have been more specific in writing their
EULA, but they
weren't, so that's a bit of a problem for them -- not for
consumers!

If I advertise that I will offer something, and someone
doesn't think that
I provided what I offered, I can be sued. Therefore, Microsoft
should
make sure that the refunds that are provided are either
satisfactory to
the customers or legally defensible as reasonable. For instance,
they
could represent the current "fair market value" of a non-bundled
copy of
the product, which would satisfy most customers, lawyers, and
courts.

I believe that this approximately $100 US right now, but you
could check
a current local catalog to find a price. Some people in the US
said that
they would ask for "enough money for a copy of Linux"; I forgot
the
original source of that idea. :-)

> On the point of returning an item to an agent vs
returning it
> to the manufacturer, I have the following confusion.
>
> How does the manufacturer determine what price the customer
paid for
> the item through the agent?
>
> Can this be used as an argument against a customer's right
to
> return an item to the manufacturer?
>
> If I bought a panasonic stereo through Frys, can I NOT
return
> it directly to Panasonic. Am I constrained by only being
able
> to return it to Frys?

Rick Moen has already had to argue this point with dozens of
people, some
at Microsoft (by proxy), and some in the public or the news
media, so
I probably ought to defer to him or to his existing postings and
web
sites about this topic.

But here's my version (which I know has some differences from
Rick's):

The software license agreement in question is between
Microsoft and the
end user. In this license, Microsoft asserts that one can return
the
product to the Manufacturer, etc. This does not mean that the
legal
agreement is between the Manufacturer and the user. It only means
that
the Manufacturer is (according to Microsoft) supposed to be the
point of
contact for the refund Microsoft is promising will be
available.

Users _SHOULD_ either attempt to contact their OEMs or attempt
to verify
specifically that their OEMs are unco-operative. If a user just
contacts
Microsoft without the support of any evidence to the effect that
OEMs are
refusing to honor the refund offer, Microsoft can justifiably
tell them
to take up the issue with them OEMs.

However, if a user has attempted to follow Microsoft's own
directions
(to return the product to the Manufacturer), and the Manufacturer
has not
co-operated as Microsoft's license led the customer to expect,
the customer
has a right to complain and to seek Microsoft's help in obtaining
this
refund.

So my position is that the refund request to Microsoft should
be phrased
in the following terms:

I (we), in an attempt to follow exactly the terms of my
legal
agreement with Microsoft, contacted my Manufacturer
_____________
and requested a refund. However, my Manufacturer professed
unfamiliarity with this offer/specifically refused to honor
this
offer.

Alternately, I am relying on a published news story in
_____________
or an official statement from my Manufacturer dated ____________
to
the effect that my Manufacturer is unfamiliar with the refund
offer
or unwilling to offer me a refund.

Since the refund offer is described as an element of the
End-User
License Agreement, which is presented as an legal agreement
offered
to me by Microsoft, I request and expect Microsoft's assistance
in
obtaining such a refund, either from Microsoft itself, or,
with
Microsoft's assistance, from my Manufacturer.

Because the agreement which was intended by Microsoft to
license
a copy of __________________ to me was between Microsoft and
myself,
not between myself and any other party, Microsoft has an
obligation
to ensure that the terms of this agreement are honored.

This agreement provided me with a specific remedy in case I
was
unwilling to consent to one or another of its terms.
Specifically,
I am unwilling to consent to _______________________, and
have
therefore chosen to exercise this remedy, which I expect
Microsoft
to guarantee will be honored. If Microsoft does not honor
this
remedy or cause my Manufacturer to honor this remedy, I will
consider
Microsoft to have breached its agreement with me.

Of course, this is intended to be a sample explanation of one
position users
might want to take in requesting a refund, _not_ the exact text
of a letter
to Microsoft.

I do think it is important that users should either try to get
a refund
through their OEMs, or else satisfy themselves that this is
impossible,
before contacting Microsoft. This prevents Microsoft from
asserting that
they must contact their OEMs: they can then respond "I did!" or
something
similar.

In answer to your question, the manufacturer (not the same as
the
"Manufacturer" in the EULA, which is the OEM, not Microsoft, and
which
I was talking about above!) is supposedly warranting/agreeing
that the
agent is going to perform a particular action. If the consumer
learns
that the agent is unwilling to perform that action, the consumer
should
resort to the manufacturer to ask why not or to get the
manufacturer's
help in making sure that the action will take place.

Let's say I sell you a lava lamp with a piece of paper that
says "Seth's
Lava Lamp 99 -- If you don't like the color of this lava lamp,
you should
promptly bring it to the nearest University campus to have the
color
altered for free". You don't like the color of the lava lamp, so
you
take it to a University, and they say "Sorry, we can't modify
this lava
lamp; we're under no obligation to do so." Now, you have ever
right to
take the lava lamp back to me and complain that I said the
University
would modify the lava lamp, and they didn't, so you expect me to
do it
instead or otherwise make sure that somebody will modify the
color.

Sure, the OEM is the agent of Microsoft, but they sold you
something which
came with an agreement from Microsoft, and (if they were
authorized by
Microsoft to do so!) Microsoft had better honor the terms of that
agreement.

Your MS person seems to be denying the validity of ANY refund,
whether
from MS or from an OEM. This contradicts what other (U.S.) MS
people have
been quoted as saying. The U.S. Microsoft position seems to be
"Yes, you
CAN get a refund, but you have to go through your OEM." You might
point
this out to your local MS people.

(You can find the stories in the linuxmall.com or
linuxmafia.com sites, I
forget just now which stories they are.)

-Matt

On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Dr Anand Venkataraman wrote:

> ...
> As of now, the present state of affairs is that MS has
categorically
> asserted that it will refuse refunds in NZ (and also the
rest of the
> world from what he told me).

First of all, please excuse the disconnected nature of
this
emial message since I'm in a hurry to do a number of things
at
present and I have to get going.

The NZ Microsoft Marketing manager just phoned me from
Auckland and
we had quite a lengthy conversation in which he tried every
possible
means to dissuade me from hosting the website.

He also accused me of misleading the public by saying that
they may be
entitled to a refund because "MS will steadfastly refuse to give
out
any refund to people for returned products". Well I told him
that
legally speaking I'm not misleading people since the page says
"if you
are a user of .... you *MAY* be entitled to a refund..." Whether
ms
gives out the refund or not is irrelevant.

He also said that it was not Microsoft's issue and that people
should
take their products back to the OEMs to return the whole
system.

My response to this was that we were going to go to MS and ask
for a
refund first as first point of call and if they refuse, then
consumers
will be urged by UniForum to seek a refund for the whole system
from
the OEMs.

His repeated assertion was that "Customers don't have a right
to
DISASSEMBLE a product they boughjt and return just one component
of
it. He repeatedly used the analogy of buying a ford car and
returning
just its stereo system."

My response was that If the ford car came with a panasonic
stereo which
had ITS OWN LICENSE AGREEMENT and asked people to return it for a
refund
if they didn't agree, then they are quite at liberty to do
so.

He said that the Stereo must be returned to Ford and not to
Panasonic.

I said that "No the customer has the right to return an item
to its
original manufacturer as well. and so he/she could approach
panasonic
justifiably."

He didn't agree.

As of now, the present state of affairs is that MS has
categorically
asserted that it will refuse refunds in NZ (and also the rest of
the
world from what he told me).

But UniForum sees no need to make changes to the website as we
will
ask people to seek redress from OEMs in that case.

I just wanted to offer my moral support being across the
country from you and
will not be able to join you. I will be checking back to your
website to see
how it went and if people were able to get their refunds.

I think I read in the paper that Linux users were declaring
a
get-a-refund-from-Microsoft day. To participate I bring my
laptop,
which came with windows but was immediately wiped out for linux,
and
demand money.

In the case of a demo unit, clearly there is acceptance by the
dealer.

In the case of anything else, no.

I doubt that this would be an issue that held up in court; if
so, it would
be a REALLY interesting legal battle and a huge restraint of
trade issue
in the US.

_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org
* http://www.deirdre.net
"Linux is a very complete and sophisticated operating system,"
said
[Paul] Maritz, Microsoft's group vice president for platforms
and
applications. "There are and will be large numbers of
applications
available for it."

If you ever need to get in contact with the owner of the
list,
(if you have trouble unsubscribing, or have questions about
the
list itself) send email to owner-cabal-l@windows-refund.org
.
This is the general rule for most mailing lists when you need
to contact a human.

Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed
to,
in case you don't already have it:

It's a testimony to the efficiency of our virtual world that
we don't
really have to know where everyone is. But a point of
accuracy:

Matt Jensen who started the Windows refund center, and his
site
thenoodle.com are in Seattle, Washington. Mark Bolzern and
the
LinuxMall.com, LinuxNews.net, and PenguinPower.com sites are in
Aurora,
Colorado (Denver) and carry the Refund Center home page (as
listed
below), which in turn is a central place that links to all the
other
resources and makes a good place to refer someone to to start
reading.

Thanks
Mark

Rick Moen wrote:
>
> Dear Dr Venkataraman:
>
> This note is just to introduce you to your fellow Windows
Refund Day
> conspirators, and let them know what you've accomplished in
New
> Zealand. (Therefore, I have included your two e-mails at the
end.)
>
> Matt Jensen created the original Windows Refund Day Web
site, which
> subsequently was transferred to Mark Bolzern's
> http://www.LinuxMall.com/refund/
site (Seattle). Don Marti of San
> Francisco is an open-source consultant and programmer, among
other
> talents. Nick Moffitt of San Francisco is editor of the
Windows
> Refund Newsletter, http://zork.net/refund/, and works
for SuSE,
> publishers of a Linux distribution. I'm a WAN/LAN consultant
in
> San Francisco, and run the San Francisco Bay Area Windows
Refund
> Day site. Deirdre Saoirse of Irvine, California and Jeff
Loomis
> created the Southern California site,
> http://www.deirdre.org/rebellion.html
>
> Jim Gleason and volunteers from the New York Linux user
group LXNY
> created the New York City site, http://www.netmonger.net/~onr/refund.html
> He is partner with Don Marti of Electric Lichen, LLC, an
open-source
> consulting firm. Roberto Di Cosmo is a noted author and
creator
> of the Centre de Detaxe Windows,
> http://www.dmi.ens.fr/~dicosmo/Detaxe/detaxe.html.
I note with
> special pleasure that the francophone Linux group, AFUL, has
become
> involved and has created a mailing list.
>
> Seth David Schoen is a student at University of California
at
> Berkeley, and author of our press release. Rik van Riel is
organiser
> of the Dutch-language effort for the Netherlands and
Flanders.
>
> I will be replying to your questions to me, separately.
Meanwhile,
> welcome to the initiative!
>
> --
> Cheers, When encryption is outlawed,
> Rick Moen only outlaws will xr2d3fsxd df#$%xx`
> rick (at) hugin.imat.com
>
> >From: Dr Anand Venkataraman A.Raman@massey.ac.nz
> To: rick@hugin.imat.com
> Subject: Updates
> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:48:50 +1300
>
> Dear Rick
>
> Just to update you on developments:
>
> 1. I have organised a room in Wellington city for non-users
of Windows
> and sympathetic observers to gather and mingle. I have also
arranged
> for some nibbles, wine and cheese by deciding to sponsor
this event
> via UniForum NZ (the NZ chapter of the non-profit Open
Systems group).
>
> 2. I scheduled it for 4pm on Monday 15th so that people can
come
> around after work. The event will take place approximately 1
day
> before it does in the USA (since NZ is about 20 hours ahead
of PST).
>
> 3. I am co-ordinating with the major newspapers and
computer/magazines
> for some press coverage of the event.
>
> 4. I will be contacting TVNZ shortly to see if they can give
us a few
> minutes' coverage on news.
>
> 5. I presume that the default position, unless I hear from
you, the
> newsletter or other source to the contrary is for UniForum
NZ Inc to
> collect verified packs of Windows and names/addresses of the
people
> who submit them, take them to the Microsoft office on the
16th and
> request refunds on their behalf.
>
> Do let me know if this is going along the lines you had
envisioned.
> I will email you the URL of the NZ windows refund site
soon.
> It will probably be http://www.uniforum.org.nz/windowsrefund/
>
> Cheers.
>
> - &
>
> >From: Dr Anand Venkataraman A.Raman@massey.ac.nz
> To: rick@hugin.imat.com
> Subject: Updates
> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:36:39 +1300
>
> Dear Rick
>
> Have you received my previous email messages.
>
> Just to update you on happenings here which are happening
on
> schedule so far.
>
> 1. The refund site web page is now up. Due to time
constraints, I have
> taken the liberty of making an almost exact copy of the bay
area page.
> Hope that's ok. Kindly do visit the page and link to it.
>
> 2. I have co-ordinated with media to get publicity regarding
the NZ
> event.
>
> Please also update me on the mechanics of the situation. Or
is
> it up the to the local organisers. Do I personally collect
the
> software and deliver to Microsoft on behalf of the people
who
> return them? I certainly can't lead a march to Microsoft
house.
>
> I look forward to your comments.
>
> Thanks.
>
> - &

As one of the locally known Internet and now Linux
spokespeople, I'm
talking to one of the producers of CTV's national "Digital Desk"
program
regarding the Windows Refund phenomenon. I've been looking over
all the
items on your web site at http://www.linuxmall.com/refund
and am impressed.
This not only is an excellent movement, it also highlights the
speed that
the Internet has brought to such a consumer movement.

Thanks for your work on this - hope we here in Canada can
help. I've been
selling Unix (and now Linux) systems to my customers for 20+
years, and
since the PC came along I've been more than annoyed that all of
the
machines have cost more for the completely useless Dos/Windows OS
that came
with them. To be sure, most times up until recently I've had to
use a copy
of Dos to start the install procedure, but with the now "free" DR
Dos even
this is not necessary - and now that we have bootable Linux CD's
and such
it's completely unnecessary to use Microsoft's product.

Thanks for your feedback. Ok, I will go ahead as we had
originally
planned and use my call on specific details.

Do give my regards to Eric Raymond; we met at the UniForum
conference
in Ocean City, MD last year.

I believe I've now fixed the web page to use NZ language, but
then the
links from it into US pages will still contain American English
of course.

*NEW* I've also added a link to the page on "whether the event
is
relevant to NZ."

Regarding the target audience, I believe that there is a very
strong
Linux community in the Asia Pacific region. In any case,
however,
I've included the Windows/NT as well in the list of OSes that
people
may alternatively use.

>If you elect to present products to Microsoft for
refund,
>you must consider what (if anything) you intend to do if
they
>turn you away and refer you to the OEMs. Since our local
>effort is primarily a PR (public relations) one, we
aren't
>terribly concerned over whether Microsoft accepts the
returns

BTW, Jeff Loomis has nothing to do with my page or the OC
effort. He's
offering to do the LA event. One county to the north. LA/OC
people get
kinda bent out of shape being mistaken for each other. :)

How about a little mailing list for refund-cabal for those
active in the
refund effort (setting up sites and demos) and another for
refund-press ?

_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org
* http://www.deirdre.net
"Linux is a very complete and sophisticated operating system,"
said
[Paul] Maritz, Microsoft's group vice president for platforms
and
applications. "There are and will be large numbers of
applications
available for it."

To whom it may concern,
I am interested in helping to coordinte the refund effort in
Foster
City. Please let me know if you need my help. I will be seeking
a
refund myself on at least a dozen systems. I work for Sun
Microsystems
and fully support open source OSs to be optionally preloaded on
OEM
machines.

> By the way, we've heard from a contractor working at Sun
who is trying
> to organise Solaris x86 users, either officially or
semi-officially
> through Sun. (We're not sure.) If you weren't aware of this,
we'll
> be glad to put you in touch with her.
>
Hey Rick. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I was not
aware of
anyone at sun already involved in this effort. Please let me know
her
name and I will be glad to coordinate efforts with her. I would
also
like to see if I can gather all of our NT licenses up and regain
some or
our capitalization costs from ordering machines with NT
preinstalled
frome Dell.

> Our _specific_ effort (at http://linuxmafia.com/refund/
is among and
> by a group of users of open-source OSes (*BSD and Linux),
but we're
> making every effort to share information and Web links with
users of
> proprietary OSes, as well. If you (and/or this contractor)
put up
> a Web site for the effort, that would be an excellent first
step.
>
I will put up an internal site over the weekend, and send out
some email
to get the word out.

Hi Rick,
I was wondering what our options are for refunds where MS
Software was
preloaded, and no original disks were sent with the system. I
don't
even think I received a certificate of authenticity. Many
computers
nowadays don't even come with the media for the OS, which is
almost as
bad as preloading MS to start with. I work for Sun Microsystems
and
have had to strip many PCs down, so it would be nice to learn how
we can
recover costs of being taxed for an unused, CERTAINLY unwanted
OS.

On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:09:22PM +1100, Murphy, Kerrie
wrote:
> I'm Kerrie Murphy a journalist with The Australian
newspaper. I'm
> doing a story on the Windows Refund Day and I was forwarded
the
> release about efforts in the Bay Area.
>
> I was hoping you'd be able to answer a couple of questions
for my
> article.

I would be more than happy to! I know that this has been
covered a lot in the Fairfax IT News. Is your publication called
"The
Australian"?

> Do you have any indication how many people will be
requesting a
> refund in your area on feb 15?

It's difficult to say, since we don't have an official
register. Anyone who wishes to arrive is welcome, and there may
be
more groups represented at the Foster City offices on that day.
We
are a group of open source enthusiasts, but there may be
groups
representing OS/2 users, BeOS users, and even Windows NT
users!

> Given that the EULA says Windows can be returned to the
vendor and
> not Microsoft and that MS maintain the EULA is entirely
separate
> from them, what reaction are you expecting from Microsoft?
Do you
> think you will get your money back or is it more to register
a
> protest at the lack of choice of OS when buying a PC?

We are going to Microsoft in good faith expecting a
refund.
According to the End User License Agreement, there is no
indication
that Microsoft will refuse. The vendors are really agents of
Microsoft as far as refunds are concerned, so we're saving
everyone
time and effort by going directly to Microsoft. Remember: the
EULA is
between the user and Microsoft, not the user and the vendor.

> The release stresses that this is not necessarily a 'get
Microsoft"
> campaign, just a call for OS choice, are you concerned that
it will
> turn into mere MS bashing?

The scope of this effort doesn't even extend as far as a
call
for OS choice. As a matter of fact, many among us see it as
an
already-won in that respect. After all, we have been paying
Microsoft
for software we don't use for quite some time, and only recently
have
we realized that Microsoft was prepared to give us a refund from
the
start!

This isn't about "Windows sucks", and right now it isn't
even
a complaint about OS choice. If anything, it's a celebration of
the
choice we already have. It isn't in anyone's interest
(including
Microsoft!) for our requests for refunds to be denied. February
15th
should be a fun time for all involved!

Please feel free to contact me if you have any further
questions or Rick Moen at rick@hugin.imat.com .

Also, a timeline of press coverage is available athttp://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html
including Australian,
English, and Japanese coverage of refund issues. The timeline
includes short summaries of the articles and reads as an
excellent
stand-alone outline.

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved
from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front
of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk
(obscurity)

----- End forwarded message -----

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved
from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front
of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk
(obscurity)

Gentlemen,
Mark Bolzern said you folks would be good to talk to
regarding
Windows Refund Day. I'm a reporter for ABCNEWS.com doing a story
on this
very interesting phenomenon, and I was hoping to chat with you
about your
experiences and goals. Please feel free to call or e-mail so we
can set
something up. And if you have suggestions on other to talk to,
please let me
know. Many thanks.

Michael Martinez
Associate Producer
ABCNEWS.com
425-468-4327
*****
"A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention
in human
history, with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila."
-- Mitch
Ratcliffe, Technology Review, April 1992

Mark Bolzern wrote:
>
> Sorry it has taken so long to respond, I just don't have any
free time.
>
> I think I like the third one down the best, but would choose
the second
> one based on a combination of look/feel and file size. They
all do look
> professional (some a bit fuzzy), and they do make the
point.
>
> It does need to say that we are not a project of
(independent of)
> Microsoft and that "Microsoft & Windows" are trademarks
of MS. If it is
> used on just the home page, then it can say this in text
below the
> graphic, however when used as a banner it cannot. Having a
banner click
> through to the home page, might or might not be sufficient
(anyone
> know?).
>
> Unfortunately there is no graphic involved
>
> Finally, there somehow needs to be a standard banner size
version
> (468x60) of whatever we end up with.
>
> Anyone else care to take charge?
>
> Mark
>

in regards to taking long to respond... not a problem. i just
wasn't
sure if you had decided not to use my designs and had
possibly
overlooked mentioning that fact to me. :) i understand you must
be
swamped with work at the moment.
the designs that incorporate a dropshadow effect utilize colors
outside
of the standard 'web-safe' palette. hence, the dropshadows may
appear
somewhat blurred and dithered. you may be safest going with one
of the
designs that do not incorporate a dropshadow, if that is a
major
concern, as it should be.
i can certainly scale your final decision down to a standard
banner size
as well, for use as a logo/banner at the top of a webpage,
somewhat like
a letterhead on paper.
as for the disclaimer information, that is only a matter of
inserting
some text into the graphic, which will be no problem whatsoever.
bear in
mind though, that small text becomes easily blurred when viewed
in a
web-browser. i'll work on some revisions and have them available
for
everyone to see soon. would it not be possible to insert only
an
asterisk (*) in the graphic, and the actual disclaimer text
beneath the
graphic, or at the bottom of the page, in standard html text,
referenced
by that asterisk...? anyway, i'll have some revisions up
soon.

(should i send the webpage with the revisions to all the
addresses on
this list, or just to mark?)

Mark Bolzern wrote:
>
> Sorry it has taken so long to respond, I just don't have any
free time.
>
> I think I like the third one down the best, but would choose
the second
> one based on a combination of look/feel and file size. They
all do look
> professional (some a bit fuzzy), and they do make the
point.
>
> It does need to say that we are not a project of
(independent of)
> Microsoft and that "Microsoft & Windows" are trademarks
of MS. If it is
> used on just the home page, then it can say this in text
below the
> graphic, however when used as a banner it cannot. Having a
banner click
> through to the home page, might or might not be sufficient
(anyone
> know?).
>
> Unfortunately there is no graphic involved
>
> Finally, there somehow needs to be a standard banner size
version
> (468x60) of whatever we end up with.
>
> Anyone else care to take charge?
>
> Mark
>
> sum-1 wrote:
> >
> > hello again,
> >
> > i have put a few "rough" drafts online at the address
listed below.
> > please bear in mind that the seven designs listed on
that page took a
> > little less than an hour to produce. i have kept them
as simple as
> > possible, while maintaining an aesthetically pleasing
design layout. i
> > would suggest these designs as a possible splash screen
before entrance
> > to the main part of the site, as they are not designed
in the standard
> > header-logo format.
> >
> > i understand what you have said regarding not having
the time to
> > actively seek out a suitable logo. allow me to
reiterate the fact that i
> > am willing to produce a logo for your refund effort,
and i am willing to
> > do so free of charge. just give me feedback on these
designs, and i'll
> > work up a logo to your satisfaction. the only thing i
would ask, should
> > you choose to use a logo that i design, is for you to
acknowledge me as
> > the designer... mention my name and an email link
somewhere on your page
> > (small print is fine). but, let me repeat, i'm *not*
looking for any
> > monetary compensation.
> >
> > if you're looking for a completely different design
scheme, don't
> > hesitate to say so.
> >
> > sincerely,
> >
> > andrew hreschak
> > hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
> >
> > the designs can be seen here:
> >
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~hreschak/windows_refund/index.html
> >
> > sum-1 wrote:
> > >
> > > hello,
> > >
> > > i'm wondering if it would be possible to be
provided with a link to the
> > > logo entries you have received thus far, or to
have them sent to me via
> > > email...? i'm curious to see the quality of work
submitted up to this
> > > point. furthermore, i have a question regarding
design... you are
> > > looking for a logo for the webpage which will hold
information on this
> > > issue, correct...? or are you looking for a logo
for letterhead, etc...
> > > i need to have an idea of size constraints,
etc...
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > >
> > > andrew hreschak
> > > hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
> > >
> > > TheNoodle Site Administrator wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Andrew,
> > > > I'm sending this on to Linux Mall. Given the
... "range" of logos seen
> > > > so far, I think they'll appreciate knowing
about your offer of
> > > > professional design skills. Later,
> > > >
> > > > -Matt
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, sum-1 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > okay, anyway, let me know if you would,
what you decide to do about the
> > > > > logo and name. i'm a graphic artist by
trade and would love to be
> > > > > involved in something like this.
> > > > >
> > > > > sincerely,
> > > > >
> > > > > andrew hreschak
> > > > > hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > (i have a university account because i
do consulting work for rutgers
> > > > > university. it's my most often checked
account.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > TheNoodle Site Administrator wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (They eventually did get a
trademark for the word "Windows" all by
> > > > > > itself.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, sum-1
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > i was thinking about this
after i sent it to you, and i may be wrong...
> > > > > > > it may be that the trademarked
name is 'windows 95' or 'windows nt'
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i'm not at all sure about
this, but it seems like something to consider
> > > > > > > if you plan to have people
design logos for a campaign that is, in
> > > > > > > essence, out to slam
microsoft... now, if you wanted to call it
> > > > > > > something like 'the micro$oft
refund center'.. you kill two birds with
> > > > >
>
> --
> Mark Bolzern mark@LinuxMall.com
> Linux Mall --> is The Linux Superstore
> http://www.LinuxMall.commailto:info@LinuxMall.com
> Phone: 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793

Sorry it has taken so long to respond, I just don't have any
free time.

I think I like the third one down the best, but would choose
the second
one based on a combination of look/feel and file size. They all
do look
professional (some a bit fuzzy), and they do make the point.

It does need to say that we are not a project of (independent
of)
Microsoft and that "Microsoft & Windows" are trademarks of
MS. If it is
used on just the home page, then it can say this in text below
the
graphic, however when used as a banner it cannot. Having a banner
click
through to the home page, might or might not be sufficient
(anyone
know?).

Unfortunately there is no graphic involved

Finally, there somehow needs to be a standard banner size
version
(468x60) of whatever we end up with.

Anyone else care to take charge?

Mark

sum-1 wrote:
>
> hello again,
>
> i have put a few "rough" drafts online at the address listed
below.
> please bear in mind that the seven designs listed on that
page took a
> little less than an hour to produce. i have kept them as
simple as
> possible, while maintaining an aesthetically pleasing design
layout. i
> would suggest these designs as a possible splash screen
before entrance
> to the main part of the site, as they are not designed in
the standard
> header-logo format.
>
> i understand what you have said regarding not having the
time to
> actively seek out a suitable logo. allow me to reiterate the
fact that i
> am willing to produce a logo for your refund effort, and i
am willing to
> do so free of charge. just give me feedback on these
designs, and i'll
> work up a logo to your satisfaction. the only thing i would
ask, should
> you choose to use a logo that i design, is for you to
acknowledge me as
> the designer... mention my name and an email link somewhere
on your page
> (small print is fine). but, let me repeat, i'm *not* looking
for any
> monetary compensation.
>
> if you're looking for a completely different design scheme,
don't
> hesitate to say so.
>
> sincerely,
>
> andrew hreschak
> hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
>
> the designs can be seen here:
>
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~hreschak/windows_refund/index.html
>
> sum-1 wrote:
> >
> > hello,
> >
> > i'm wondering if it would be possible to be provided
with a link to the
> > logo entries you have received thus far, or to have
them sent to me via
> > email...? i'm curious to see the quality of work
submitted up to this
> > point. furthermore, i have a question regarding
design... you are
> > looking for a logo for the webpage which will hold
information on this
> > issue, correct...? or are you looking for a logo for
letterhead, etc...
> > i need to have an idea of size constraints, etc...
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > andrew hreschak
> > hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
> >
> > TheNoodle Site Administrator wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Andrew,
> > > I'm sending this on to Linux Mall. Given the ...
"range" of logos seen
> > > so far, I think they'll appreciate knowing about
your offer of
> > > professional design skills. Later,
> > >
> > > -Matt
> > >
> > > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, sum-1 wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > okay, anyway, let me know if you would, what
you decide to do about the
> > > > logo and name. i'm a graphic artist by trade
and would love to be
> > > > involved in something like this.
> > > >
> > > > sincerely,
> > > >
> > > > andrew hreschak
> > > > hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
> > > >
> > > > (i have a university account because i do
consulting work for rutgers
> > > > university. it's my most often checked
account.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > TheNoodle Site Administrator wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > (They eventually did get a trademark for
the word "Windows" all by
> > > > > itself.)
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, sum-1 wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > i was thinking about this after i
sent it to you, and i may be wrong...
> > > > > > it may be that the trademarked name
is 'windows 95' or 'windows nt'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i'm not at all sure about this, but
it seems like something to consider
> > > > > > if you plan to have people design
logos for a campaign that is, in
> > > > > > essence, out to slam microsoft...
now, if you wanted to call it
> > > > > > something like 'the micro$oft
refund center'.. you kill two birds with
> > > >

1. I have organised a room in Wellington city for non-users of
Windows
and sympathetic observers to gather and mingle. I have also
arranged
for some nibbles, wine and cheese by deciding to sponsor this
event
via UniForum NZ (the NZ chapter of the non-profit Open Systems
group).

2. I scheduled it for 4pm on Monday 15th so that people can
come
around after work. The event will take place approximately 1
day
before it does in the USA (since NZ is about 20 hours ahead of
PST).

3. I am co-ordinating with the major newspapers and
computer/magazines
for some press coverage of the event.

4. I will be contacting TVNZ shortly to see if they can give
us a few
minutes' coverage on news.

5. I presume that the default position, unless I hear from
you, the
newsletter or other source to the contrary is for UniForum NZ Inc
to
collect verified packs of Windows and names/addresses of the
people
who submit them, take them to the Microsoft office on the 16th
and
request refunds on their behalf.

Thank you for your mail. I can be available here Tuesday from
9:30 to
1:00 California time. I may or may not be available on Wednesday.
My
phone number is 415-546-4028. Please feel free to give me a
call
then. If you're on deadline and can't reach me, you can also
try
415-308-7272.

You might like to have a copy of the current Microsoft Windows
98
end-user license agreement (EULA) in advance before talking with
me.
The person at Microsoft who handles EULA-related publicity is
Adam
Sohn at 425-882-8080. I'm sure he'll be able to send you a
copy.
(There are copies of the EULA on the net, but for accuracy I
encourage
you to get it straight from the source.)

I agree with Seth about risk. But before putting out a
release, you could
make a Dell-centric effort to try to get one vendor to go on the
record in
support of refunds. That would be a huge win.

Last week Dell announced a new push to sell servers to Linux
users. And
they got a lot of press for it. Why not track down the Dell
sources in
those stories or the original press release, and persuade them to
go
public with an official refund statement? (Or connect you to
people in
Dell who CAN do that.)

My reading of the press is that Dell was the last of the
top-tier server
vendors (IBM, SGI, HP, Compaq) to announce a Linux push. Persuade
them
that the attention and free press they would get in the Linux
community
for a refund position would win them the adoration of many Linux
fans, and
they'd pull ahead of other big vendors in Linux mindshare and
marketshare.

The same push could be made with e-machines, who targets the
individual or
home Linux user, rather than the more upscale and enterprise
customers
that Dell targets. They can split the glory. And they get our
help in
reward for being first to do U.S. refunds. Just an idea.

-Matt

On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Seth David Schoen wrote:

> Deirdre Saoirse writes:
> > Oh, Just Do It. :)

> Well, the problem is that this might be an isolated
incident. It would be
> a little embarrassing to publicize widely and positively
something that
> turned out to be a mistake by a customer support person who
wasn't familiar
> with policy.
>
> Maybe better to put this on slashdot or somewhere similar
and see whether
> it's (as James Randi would no doubt insist) repeatable.
>
> --
> Seth David Schoen / schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
> He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will
do." And they
> said, "Nay, but we will have a king over us, that we also
may be like all the
> nations." (1 Sam 8) http://ishmael.geecs.org/~sigma/http://www.loyalty.org/
>

Part of me is tempted to put out a release/article saying
something like

In an apparent change in policy, the Austin, TX-based computer
vendor
Dell Computer Corporation has said it will honor a clause in
the
license agreement for Microsoft Windows which allows non-Windows
users
to return unused copies of Windows for a refund from Dell.

On Friday, a Dell representative agreed to provide a refund to
Dell
customer Simon Hill. Hill asked for a refund on an unopened copy
of
Microsoft Windows 98 which came bundled with his new Dell
computer;
he is a user of the Linux operating system. A customer
service
representative at the national computer vendor advised Hill that
he
could return his unused copy of Windows and receive a check from
Dell.

"Unlike most other vendors we've seen so far, Dell is living
up to its
license obligations," said J. Random Hacker, an organizer of
the
upcoming Windows Refund Day event. "Dell's willingness to honor
the
refund clause will make Dell computers much more attractive to
users
of Linux and other operating systems other than Linux. We hope
that
other vendors will follow suit in the near future."

On February 15, customers of various computer manufacturers
(OEMs)
who declined to honor the license language will gather at
Microsoft's
office in Foster City to ask Microsoft to help make sure that
they
receive their promised refunds. But in light of the recent
development, Dell users may be staying at home.

"Since Dell, unlike other vendors, now appears responsive to
refund
requests, I'd encourage people who bought Dell computers and
never
used Windows to try calling up Dell before making plans to
come
along to Microsoft on the 15th," added Hacker.

Within the United States, only Dell and eMachines, Inc. are
known to
have honored the license agreement's refund clause, while a
survey
last June by David Chun, then of Ralph Nader's Consumer Project
on
Technology, found no manufacturers willing to offer refunds for
unused
Microsoft operating systems.

are these the exact words used on the paper EULA? if so,
this clearly implies that this is an agreement between the
consumer and microsoft. but notice how quickly the third
party
(the OEM) is dragged in to make things muddy.

2) i'm looking at the EULA online at www.linuxmall.com,
and
something has jumped out at me. note how the first paragraph
emphasizes the distinction between SOFTWARE PRODUCT asnd
HARDWARE.
several times throughout that paragraph, there is a reference
to
"SOFTWARE PRODUCT" to make sure there is no confusion.

yet in the last line, we have the watered-down reference
to
"unused product(s)", which gives Microsoft the out to say
that
that really means the bundled unit. does this last reference
to
"product(s)" refer to software, hardware or the combination?
and why is it so maddeningly vague when, up to that point,
the EULA was quite specific in distinguishing between the
two?

all in all, the EULA seems to be a frustratingly vague
document
which leaves key terms undefined or ambiguous.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Until you and others in
the open source
community understand that, we will have an infinitely harder time
succeeding
against Microsoft.

I am an ardent Linux user at home, but due to it's SMP
instability we are
forced to use Solaris X86 at the office. Many at our company WERE
going to
assist with the Refund Day activities, but since become aware of
your
exclusionary policies towards any 'proprietary' operating system
we have
decided to bow out, as have a good dozen of our friends.

The issue here is not open source - What makes you think
anything having to
do with the EULA issue is? The issue is ONE company forcing you
to buy an
operating system they make with every PC sold. I can, and have,
purchased
Sparc platform machines from Sun and opted to NOT buy an OS
license, which
they have no problem at all with - I then installed Linux on it.
As such, I
would think you would WANT Sun Solaris users on board, since they
are
subject to the same ludicrous license agreements Linux users
are.

You are being foolish by limiting the potential members of
your little
Linux/BSD-only event, for reasons that I cannot fathom other than
open
source evangelism, an issue completely unrelated to Microsoft's
EULA. Take a
step back from your kernel sometime and maybe start thinking
about what is
actually involved here.

> Dear Pierre:
>
> Delighted to hear from you and from Caldera. I wish I could
tell you
> what to expect in the long term, or give you a guaranteed
winning

---8<---8<--8<---8<---

> P.S.: I'm unclear from your e-mail which side of The
Channel / La Mancheyou're
> on. A specifically French effort is being assembled by
Robertodi Cosmo, whose
> Web page for that purpose at

Well, I'm French by nationality but I work in the U.K. ;-)
I've read Di
Cosmo's book but I didn't know he was actually involved in
this.

I'll try to contact Toshiba firstm then Microsoft. Actually,
as a matter of
principle, I'm quite prepared to *loose* money to make OEMs and
Microsoft respect
their customers, so I will take the issue as far as it needs
to.

My name is Pierre-Philippe Coupard and I work at Caldera Thin
Client
(the DR-DOS division of Caldera Inc.).

I've bought a Toshiba laptop in Utah last week with Windoze
98
preinstalled on it. The first thing I did was to wipe it out of
the disk
and dump Linux on it, of course ;-)

I now have this Windows 98 license I just don't want (and
never
wanted anyway) and I'm trying to get a refund. The VAR I bought
the
laptop from was adamant. So I've asked my colleague at Caldera
who
manages the court case against Microsoft and he said you guys
where
doing quite a lot to get Microsoft to surrender the $$$ from
unwanted
licenses and that I should contact you.

Do you know what is the best procedure to get my money back ?
I'm
quite sure Toshiba will try to divert the issue if I contact
them, let
alone Microsoft.

Thank you very much in advance. Btw, I just love what you guys
are
doing.

I've been following the Refund day stuff, and I think it's
great.
Unfortunately I don't have any unusued copies of Windows to try
to get a
refund with as I've taken to building my own machines from parts.
(Partly
to avoid the Gate tax)

But, I would like to attend as a sign of support (if that
would be cool),
and would like to do what ever I can to help out. As you guys
seem to be
on point for this effort I'll ask you all what tasks need
doing.

I have an interesting twist. Today at 3:15 PM CST I called
Dell to ask
about the EULA refund. Here's what happened!!! (I'm afraid the
rep I
spoke with is about to lose his job, but it's GOOD news for
us!)

The number I called was 1-800-879-3355. When the list of
options came
up, I just hit 0, and got a generic Dell operator. The
conversation went
like this:

Me: I'd like to know what department at Dell is responsible for
refunds.

Op: That would be customer service.

Me: Could I please have the extension for customer
service?

Op: I'm sorry, I can't give you that, but I'll transfer
you.

Me: Thank you.

Sean: Customer service, Sean speaking, how can I help you?

Me: I'd like to know Dell's policy on returning Windows for a
refund.

Sean: You can return your system within 30 days if you're not
satisfied
with it.

Me: No, I haven't bought a system yet, but when I do I'll be
installing
Linux on it,
and I won't be needing the Windows software. Your sales
department said
that
they won't sell me a system without Windows, so I need to know
your
policy on
returning just Windows.

My friend referred me to the Windows refund page, and I've
read some of
the information. Are you aware of anything planned in the Twin
Cities?
I personally would not be returning anything, but I would be
interested
in observing.

I think Refund Day is a very funny and effective idea. Happens
I'll
be in the Bay Area Feb 15 speaking at Virginia Postrel's
Dynamic
Visions conference. Would you like another parade marshal?

I feel a little awkward suggesting asking this, because I know
it
might seem like I'm trying to get out front on something I
didn't
think up or organize. But if you guys think you can leverage my
media
visibility and contacts to get more publicity, feel free to use
me in
any way -- press contacts, marquee guest, whatever.

I thought the suggestion that you don't necessarily want a
full
refund, but just enough to cover the cost of a Linux, was
particularly
wicked and effective.
--
<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr">Eric
S. Raymond</a>

Morality is always the product of terror; its chains and
strait-waistcoats are fashioned by those who dare not trust
others,
because they dare not trust themselves, to walk in liberty.
-- Aldous Huxley

Dear Rick, Nick, Don, and whoever else is cordinating(sorry if
I missed
anyone),

I'm am interested and willing to help out in any way I can
with
'Refund Day'. Just email me or call me. I live in the Fresno area
so I
can't help out much with actual phiscal stuff till that weekend.
My phone
number is below.

On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, you wrote:
>Quoting thalakan@technologist.com(thalakan@technologist.com):
>
>> Hey, I *LIVE* in Foster City!
>
>Cool. I used to work about 400 feet from the building
Micrsoft's in,
>so it's familiar territory for me, too. (I'm in San
Francisco, now.)
>
>> I've been to the Microsoft office a couple times for NT
user group meetings,
>> but now all my friends are going with me :) Only fair I
chip in... what do I
>> need to do to become a marshal?
>
>You've done what can be done for the moment (except I've
appreciate
>getting a less unwieldy name than "thalakan", and we probably
should
>collect telephone numbers). We're still very much in the
planning
>and setup stages.

My primary number is (650) 520-5090. I also have an
email-telephony gateway,
so I do check my e-mail even when I'm mobile. Do you need
administrative
assistance as well?

Don't forget the Southern contingent...we probably won't need
as many as
the bay area, but we love you anyway. And if you wouldn't mind
slipping in
a few of those computer badges for converts, we'll worship you
too. :)

Rick,
The last first. I had thought about trying to do something here,
but
I just recently moved to Atlanta, took a new job, and bought a
house,
so my time is realy too limited right now (I had to bow out as
one of
the organizers for WarpStock for that reason). Certainly if
someone
else wants to be the main effort behind it, I'd help as I could,
so
feel free to pass my name and e-mail address on to them if
you're
contacted.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be critical of any
efforts for
people to get refunds, my only concern is that, reading the EULA,
it
seems that it would be quite easy for MS to pass the buck to
the
OEM's. As they have so far it seems. However, the EULA clearly
states
that the OEM's have an obligation to pony up. Incidentally, I
showed
a copy of the EULA to my wife, who used to work for a law firm
on
just such issues, and she aggreed that they have absolutely no
out.
But in any case, I look forward to how MS responds on the 15th,
and I
*do* hope people are successful.

I just took a look at the NT4 EULA, and it clearly
differentiates
betwen the ' "SOFTWARE PRODUCT" ' and the ' "HARDWARE" '. So at
least
Toshiba would loose an argument there.

Good luck.

Tom Rowe
Atlanta, GA

Four wheel drive allows you to get stuck
in places even more inaccessible.

The windows refund FAQ says to write you
to express interest in the Windows
refund. I am interested, but I have
questions that I haven't be able to get
answered by reading all the web pages
and news letters:

1. How long has the EULA been phrased
that way? Just wondering if it was
recent and if it would apply to Win95
agreements.

2. Is anybody organizing in New Mexico?
I can't really fly to California or New
York, though I would love to participate
in the Refund Day.

3. How else do I apply for a refund and
still join a larger group for the
purposes of making a statement?

Reason being is I just purchased a new
laptop (should be here in a few hours),
but it is a discontinued IBM Thinkpad
and has Win95 and perhaps an older
version of the EULA. Do I contact IBM?
Or is there an IBM group starting?

Btw, had I not seen these web pages I
would have probably booted up W95 to
check the hardware out before
repartioning for Linux.

It seems to me that the best way to get refunds quickly,
AFTER
REQUESTING A REFUND COUPLED WITH THE OFFER TO RETURN THE CD-ROM
(if any)
AND ANY WINDOWS MANUALS OR LITERATURE received with the new PC,
is to
let "them" know that if they are not bound by the "agreement"
neither
are you and that you are therefore free to make copies and sell
them for
whatever you choose to recap the cost you involuntarily paid
for
Windows. Any attorney up on Contract law should be able to
confirm
this (I am not a lawyer but I think I'm right) and help you with
the
wording. Anyone trying this risks litigation so must consult a
good
attorney first.

I spoke with you last week regarding the Microsoft Refund Day.
On the website I noticed that there is no specified time for the
rally - have you decided on a time yet? Also, how many people are
you expecting and what type of response have you received? I'd
like to get the word out to some Java and Solaris user groups at
Sun.

Hi I was interested in talking to someone (perhaps Donald
Marti?) about the
Windows refund day for a brief story I would like to do on it.
Please
either email me with contact information on who to speak to and
how to get
a hold of him (I tried to find Marti in SF information, but he is
not
listed).Thank you for your time. Therese Poletti, Correspondent
Reuters

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender,
except where the sender specifically states them to be the views
of
Reuters Ltd.

Just had an interesting conversation with Chris DiBona, who
is
interested in supporting Linux publicity efforts by helping to
set up
a Linux publicity project with the office-type stuff that we
don't
have yet. I offered to host the project here in my office (when
we
get rid of the big rack there's space for a desk in the
corner.)

PR Newswire: Chris has offered to fund a PR Newswire
membership.

Fax server: Chris has offered to donate us a VA box and an
_external_
modem to set up here at the Coffeenet as a fax server to make
sure
Linux communiques reach those of the local media who don't read
their
email. http://www.tpc.int/
Someone should volunteer to be the
faxmaster, I might have time.

I'm on the newsletter, and have a suggestion that probably has
come up. Class action lawsuit against MS as it's their license
agreement and the OEMs are not willing to make the refund (as
they won't get reimbursed themselves). I got a $10 settlement
from Iomega a while back because they were exceedingly slow on a
refund return and some consumer group took them to court for it.
Imagine every user of every alternate OS times the number of
computers running other OSes filing for this suit regardless of
whether or not they used Win95 but are running a different OS
now. Estimated 7-10 million Linux machines alone, many of which
undoubtedly came with Windows preloaded. Think of all the legal
leg-work already done by the Justice Department in their
anti-trust case. Settlement, or a portion of it, could go into a
fund to hire programmers for Open Source projects.

On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 11:35:25PM -0800, Lane Roathe
wrote:
> I believe it's viable, but here's a question:
>
> I purchased a Micron system and wanted NT installed, but
because the
> Micron was a "pre-packaged" system it would have cost an
extra $500
> for NT. So, I chose to purchase a copy mail order for $250.
After
> getting the machine, I inserted the NT boot floppy, and
installed a
> clean copy of NT, formatting the hard drive for the NT file
system.
>
> I believe this is a viable case for a refund on Windows 95;
your
> input?

Yes indeed! So long as you _never used the bundled
software_
and _never opened the shrinkwrapped license_, you are indeed
eligible
for a refund! We're looking for stories involving NT users
requesting a refund particularly to prove the point that we're
not
doing this as some sort of anti-Microsoft action, but rather as
an
attempt to fulfill a contract. If you need more help, we're happy
to
provide information and publish your account (or link to your
existing
account). If you live in the San Francisco Bay area, we'd be
extremely happy to have you come along with us to the Foster
City
event (http://linuxmafia.com/refund/).

I've Cc'd others involved in the refund effort in case
they
have any comments they'd like to make.

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved
from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front
of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk
(obscurity)

> Geoffrey Bennett, an Australian computer user, reported
last week that
> he had persuaded a computer vendor there to give him a full
refund for
> his unused copy of the Microsoft Windows operating system.
But users
> here who tried to request such a refund from their
computer
> manufacturers said that the manufacturers claimed
unfamiliarity with
> the refund offer. And a report by David Chun, then an intern
at Ralph
> Nader's Consumer Project on Technology, said in June that
not one of
> the 12 OEMs he contacted was willing to sell him a computer
without
> Windows or to provide a refund for Windows if he used
another
> operating system.

While manufacturer spokespeople and salescritters say they
don't know
anything about the refund and will say it isn't possible, a
determined
customer who is polite and well-informed -- and willing to show
them the
appropriate clauses in the EULA -- can, indeed, receive a
refund.

At least, that's how I got my refund from Canon, once I got a
manager to
run the EULA by their Legal Dept. And I'm in the US, was in the
US when I
bought my Canon, and dealt with a US office of Canon. Presumably,
it was
their US-based legal department who gave the go-ahead.

I did it with no fanfare, no publicity, and certainly no
campaign behind
me. Rather, I did it the way that virtually all social change in
this
country is eventually effected: by individuals standing by
their
principles and refusing to back down in the face of the
occasional line
grunt who says something can't be done just because they've never
heard of
it being done before.

While I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of encouraging
users to return
their unused Windows for a refund (indeed, I have been trying to
get that
same word out for two years now), I am filled with sorrow that
those who
are organizing the event seem to be as devoid of hope as end
users usually
are when contemplating Microsoft products. The problem is one of
thinking
that others can be changed, when all we can change is ourselves.
If,
instead, you could imagine a way to help your followers
empower
themselves, get them to change their ways of thinking such that
they do
not feel powerless when dealing with a large corporation, you
will do much
good for the causes of Linux, of Open Source, and of computing
itself: you
will be bringing these communities back to our roots, when we
=built= the
computing industry by plugging away when Everybody Else insisted
it
couldn't be done.

Personal empowerment and perseverence in the face of corporate
naysaying
is where our history lies. Can't it be our future as well?

I have done the same here in Tokyo, Japan. I even put the
pressure on to
Microsoft by calling their regional offices here and their
comment was that
the EULA was part of the license and in order to get the license
you need to
purchase the product.. Talk about a catch 22..

Daniel

-----
Can you even see the EULA before purchase?

A couple of us here in the Bay Area have been calling around
trying to
get a copy of the EULA from Microsoft or an OEM. No luck so far
--
guess you don't even get to see it unless you pay.

----- End forwarded message -----

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved
from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front
of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk
(obscurity)

Rick Moen has already answered this well, probably better than
I
could. But I'm answering it anyway.

On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 05:55:10PM -0800, Matt Jensen
wrote:

> What if you go to Microsoft's offices and say "we want to
return
> Windows for a refund"? Microsoft will stick to their
current
> position and say "go talk to your OEM, as stated in the
EULA.

Not necessarily. I'm keeping up with the internal discussions
at
Microsoft, and they're a group of people like any other -- not a
hive
mind. We expect that the reasonable people's case for doing a
refund
is stronger than the unreasonanable people's case for trying to
blow
us off.

> There needs to be a specific Call To Action, where we ask
someone
> (MS, OEMs, or DOJ) to DO something specific, with another
plan that
> kicks in if they refuse.

No, there doesn't. Windows Refund Day is about getting a
refund for
software whose license we do not accept. The offer of a refund
is
explicit, and all we need to do is walk up and ask for it. We
don't
need to get the OEMs or the DOJ or the FBI or the MIBs involved
to
pick up a check.

If Windows Refund Day doesn't result in any checks, then
people are
free to do other things. However, we are proceeding under the
assumption that we will get checks on the 15th, and anything
else
would be a surprise, since Microsoft is an honorable company that
will
carry out their part of the refund clause.

> They then say "these UNIX enthusiasts can't seem to
understand the
> license. It's up to their OEMs." I think we may look foolish
if we
> can't present a convincing LEGAL argument.

We have public opinion on our side, and will continue to have
it,
since the simple request we're making seems right and fair. Even
if
they out-lawyer us, they won't make us look foolish. We are
already
making them look foolish, and we haven't even gotten warmed up
yet.
People understand the "go to the OEM" line to be slick weasel
words,
since it's _Microsoft_ Windows, right? No point being more
complicated than you have to be.

> I think it would help greatly to present a written,
suggested refund
> policy plan that they could feasibly follow.

They wrote the policy, we didn't. Return it for a refund. If
they
want to give us bar-coded CD mailers to make it easier in the
future,
fine, but the policy is there and satisfactory. We just need to
get
them to hold up their end.

> Without such a plan, Microsoft will continue to truly
believe it is
> a pie-in-the-sky idea, and will refuse to negotiate.

We do not expect them to negotiate. We expect them to write
checks.
Negotiation has nothing to do with it.

> 1) collectively pressuring and rewarding OEMs for
refunds.
> 2) for people with unhelpful OEMs, creating a small claims
court how-to
> package, or pursuing a class action.
> 3) collectively pressuring Microsoft to drop "per-model"
pricing and other
> practices.
> 4) pursuing a class action against Microsoft if they
refuse.

Any lawyer who wants to start any kind of lawsuit against
Microsoft is
welcome to put up a web site. That's not what Windows Refund Day
is
about, though. We don't need no fancy lawyers to go get a
check.

> But if people want to go straight to Microsoft for a
refund, let's
> make it easier for Microsoft to agree. Offer them a written
proposal
> for a refund procedure, in exchange for some kind of truce
or seal
> of approval from the community, or something.

We're talking with Microsoft, not daily, but frequently. All
will be
well.

BTW, anyone had any luck being able to see a Windows 98 EULA
before
purchase?

Open source in every state is a blessing, but Microsoft even
in its best state
is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one;
for when we
suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries _by a Microsoft OS_,
which we
might expect on a system _without Microsoft_, our calamities are
heightened by
reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer.
Microsoft, like
dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of Gates are
built on the
ruins of the bowers of paradise. For were the impulses of
conscience clear,
uniform, and irresistably obeyed, man would need no other
lawgiver; but that
not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part
of his
property to furnish means for the development of NT 5...

I'm working on an article for Network Computing Magazine
involving
shrinkwrap software license restrictions that users may have
objectionable
e.g. restraints on software transferability, right to use
timebombs,
disclaimers of warranty, provisions giving the software provider
choice of
a forum (like Ireland) in event of a dispute with the
customer;
prohibitions on incidental or consequential damages.

Your home page refers to software providers that prevent OEMs
from
including competing products caught my attention in this vein. Do
you know
if any of these OEMs similarly attach licensing terms that end
users may
find objectionable and do you have copies of any of the licenses
that these
OEMs are asked to sign?

> On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:34:03PM -0800, Nathan Myers
wrote:
> > > Would you consider writing a short paragraph for
the
> > > refund-news newsletter?
>
> Also in this issue: Nathan Meyers on Chembook, a Bay Area
press
> release, and a call for artwork.

First, be sure to spell my *name* right.
Here's the copy:

Buying a computer without Windows is probably hardest when
what you
want is a laptop. Laptops tend to come in sealed boxes that
the
dealer just hands over to you. Not all laptops are dealt this
way.
In September 1998 I bought a Chembook 3300T (with various
upgrades:
li-ion battery, 13.3in screen, etc.) from Hitron Systems in
Santa
Clara, and stood by while their tech formatted the drive--after
we
wrote down all the hardware details--before I took delivery.
They
gave me almost $100 off the system price for not taking Windows.
It's
happily running Debian GNU/Linux now. I know of two other people
who
bought laptops for Linux at Hitron; one was installing it in
their
store when I picked mine up.

Generally any laptop manufacturer who doesn't have a
sweetheart deal
with Microsoft, and thus pays full price for Windows, can offer a
you
better deal by leaving Windows out. Perhaps the IBMs and Compaqs
of
the world can also offer "non-Windows" models without violating
their
sweetheart contract; it certainly wouldn't hurt to ask them, if
they
make just the machine you want.

One thing to be careful about when buying a "blank" system is
that
because the system documentation never reveals details about
hardware
device types, addresses, and interrupts, you should get the
dealer
to write all that down for you before you take delivery. (It may
be
that Windows offers a way to print out such a summary.)

Thank you for your interest. I encourage you to visithttp://zork.net/refund/ to
subscribe to the Windows Refund Day
Newsletter for further updates.

Windows Refund Day is not a formal organization, so there is
no
individual or group with the authority to retain legal counsel
on
Windows Refund Day's behalf.

If you are interested in contacting Windows Refund Day
participants,
it would be best to prepare a web site listing your plans for
Windows
Refund Day and then mail the webmasters of the other Windows
Refund
Day sites to let them know about yours. That way people
interested in
working with you will be able to find you.

If you are interested in writing an article for the Windows
Refund Day
Newsletter, you can mail it to Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net who will,
I'm sure, consider it for publication.

> I feel that the best way to handle offers of particpation
from anyone,
> lawyer or not, is this.
>
> 1. Thank the person for his or her interest in Windows
Refund Day.
> Invite the person to subscribe to refund-news
> at http://zork.net/refund/
>
> 2. Ask the person to put up a web page describing his or her
intended
> Windows Refund Day project.
>
> 3. Invite the person to mail other Windows Refund Day
webmasters when
> his or her page is done. Each webmaster will then have the
option
> of linking to the new page if he or she chooses.
>
> This has the effect of (1) letting web-wandering reporters
know about
> the depth of interest in Windows Refund Day and (2) making
sure that
> there's no implied afffiliation between people who might not
be
> comfortable with or interested in what each other is
doing.
>
> Oh, and (3) weeding out anyone insufficiently clueful to put
up a web
> page.
>
> Comments?

For the benefit of this lawyer (who does, after all, have a
special
talent to offer), it might be nice to point out explicitly that
the above
technique will allow interested participants to accept
_individually_
his offer of representation. (This is very different from
declining his
kind offer; it's just not accepting it "corporately", in keeping
with
the idea that this is a very distributed effort.)

If this is OK with him, then the link to his page could say
something like

<A HREF="http://www.attor.ney/">This
lawyer</A> has extended an offer of
free legal representation to all interested participants, who
should
contact him privately for more information.

(And individual webmasters could adopt or adapt this style as
they
preferred.)

I feel that the best way to handle offers of particpation from
anyone,
lawyer or not, is this.

1. Thank the person for his or her interest in Windows Refund
Day.
Invite the person to subscribe to refund-news
at http://zork.net/refund/

2. Ask the person to put up a web page describing his or her
intended
Windows Refund Day project.

3. Invite the person to mail other Windows Refund Day
webmasters when
his or her page is done. Each webmaster will then have the
option
of linking to the new page if he or she chooses.

This has the effect of (1) letting web-wandering reporters
know about
the depth of interest in Windows Refund Day and (2) making sure
that
there's no implied afffiliation between people who might not
be
comfortable with or interested in what each other is doing.

Oh, and (3) weeding out anyone insufficiently clueful to put
up a web
page.

(Those without FAX numbers are those for which I found e-mail
addresses
for press releases. But I think from experience that sending
e-mail
press releases to mainstream print newspapers is a Bad Thing --
they seem
to be much more comfortable with FAX right now, so I would
recommend
trying to find their FAX numbers instead of e-mail
addresses.)

The only "essential" outlets for the present story, in my
opinion, are
the AP SF bureau (and/or a Silicon Valley bureau, if they have
one), the
_San Jose Mercury News_, and the _SF Chronicle/Examiner_. Local
computer
magazines like _Computer Currents_ would also be a possibility; I
didn't
see whether you had their e-mail address already.

Gary Rivlin, a reporter with a slight interest in Linux and a
great hatred
of Microsoft, is now the editor of the East Bay Express, so I
think he
would be more than a little interested in the story.

I am a litigation attorney with a technical background. I
understand that on
2/15/99 your group plans on presenting itself at Microsoft's
office and
requesting a refund. I would be willing to volunteer my
professional services
by preparing a legal memorandum for your meeting and by
personally
accompanying you to Microsoft's office. I would not charge for my
memorandum
preparation or for any legal services rendered that day.

Let me know if you are interested.

- Mike

NOTE: If you currently have counsel, all further communication
should be
through him or her.

Marc Merlin and I both bought (different-model) Chembook
laptops
at Hitron in Santa Clara. They offered a discount taking
delivery
without Windows.

I bought a Chembook 3300T with CPU, display, battery, and
disk
upgrades, coming out to $1700. Marc bought a 9780 for a bit
more,
but still far less than $3000. Chris DiBona has a Sony Vaio
at
only 3 lb. for less than $2K. I'd say that for $3K you expect
something really, really spiffy. You might also consider a
Mac...

Expect to spend $10-$200 for an ethernet PC-Card. ($10 is
for
an ne200 Duncan mentioned.)

You mainly need to decide whether you want a big screen or
light weight.

Miss Schoedel
Thanks for your e-mails and I apologize for not getting back to
you sooner.
I have read the information that you shared with me and agree
with you. I
have also investigated the OEM software refund price for you.

The total refund for the pre-bundled software will be $26.00.
Please return
the books and restore CD's to the following address and I will
have a check
mailed to you. Please include a return address for the check to
be sent.
Address: Emachine
48400 Fremont Boulevard
Fremont, CA 94538
Att: Jim Mertz
Thanks again for purchasing an Emachine and let me know if you
have any
other questions.
Jim Mertz
Vice President
Emachines
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schoedel kevralyn@netscape.net
To: jimmertz@prodigy.netjimmertz@prodigy.net
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 12:56 AM
Subject: Mr. Mertz: Return of Software

Mr. Mertz -

Attached, you will find a copy of the email I sent you several
days ago. I
have not yet received any response to my letter, in which I
stated once
again
my wish to return the Microsoft software that was included with
the PC I
purchased from your company.

"Attorney Erwin Shustak, chief litigator of securities and
corporate
finance
at the law firm Shustak, Jalil, & Heller, said Bennett's
effort may not
lead to immediate, dramatic consequences, but could give rise to
an eventual
class-action lawsuit. Microsoft and PC makers "had a contract
that clearly
said what [users] were entitled to do, and yet they didn't honor
the
contract," Shustak said of Bennett's story. "They made it
extremely
difficult
for him to obtain what he was supposed to obtain. I believe it
was an
illusory
clause; they had no procedure sent up to honor it." "

I call your attention to this quote because I have been told
by several
emachines Technical Support representatives that no procedure has
been
established by emachines to facilitate the return of the
pre-bundled
software,
and the refund of the Microsoft licensing fee, which was part of
the cost of
the computer.

Let me state once again that I have been contacting your
company in an
attempt
to return this software since mid-December. By your refusal to
allow me to
return the software, you risk placing your company in breach of
contract. I
am prepared to seek legal action in the Santa Clara County courts
if this
situation is not resolved to my satisfaction within the next 28
days.

Please contact me as soon as possible so that we may reach an
amicable
solution to this issue. You may call me at 408.241.4079, or
respond to this
email.

Well, I haven't received any copy from anyone yet, but here's
the
first hundred lines or so I came up with for an intro. Flame
on.

*NOTES*
Stress that we're not freeloading--we're returning unused
software as
per the license agreement.

Use monetary reward as value judgement.

make your own news

repeat instructions in a terse (but crackmonkey) manner.

we are in a position not to care
*NOTES*

For some unfathomable reason, the press have taken to drooling
all
over the idea of a Windows Refund day. It serves, perhaps, to
occupy
their minds and divert them from the drab existence that
modern
journalism is. It distracts them from the impeachments,
antitrusts,
and bribings that have been the focus of the million monkeys'
keystrokes these past months.

Fine, I say. This is partly why I got into this as well. As
Rick
Moen[1] always says, "If you don't like the news, make some!".
While
the idea of returning a software product for a refund as
specified in
the license isn't exactly newsworthy in most circumstances,
the
politics of the current situation have raised more than a few
journalistic eyebrows.

There's something to be said for numbers, as well. I think
that Seth
David Schoen[2] put it best in the following excerpt from
Alice's
Restaurant[3]:

And the only reason I'm singing you this song now is 'cause
you may know somebody in a similar situation, or you may be
in
a similar situation, and if you're in a situation like that
there's only one thing you can do, is walk into the Microsoft
regional office wherever you are, just walk in, say, "If you
do not agree to the terms of this EULA, Manufacturer and
Microsoft Licensing, Inc. ("MS") are unwilling to license the
SOFTWARE PRODUCT to you. In such event, you may not use or
copy the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, and you should promptly contact
Manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused
product(s) for a refund." And walk out.

You know, if one person, just one person does it they may
think he's really sick and they won't take him. And if two
people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're
both hackers and they won't take either of them. And if three
people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking
in,
quoting a line of Bill's End-User License Agreement, and
walking out. They may think it's an organization.

And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said
fifty
people a day, walking in, singing a bar of _Join Us Now and
Share the Software_ and walking out? And friends, they may
think it's a movement.

And that's what it is, the Windows Refund Anti-Massacre
Movement, and all you gotta do to join is show up February 15
in Foster City.

Well, now. That's a mighty fine sentiment, don't you think?
All
those people who've never used the copy of Microsoft Windows that
came
with their respective computers, and every one of them ready to
follow
the instructions written on the shrinkwrap package. Why, you'd
think
it's a movement.

The part that I just don't understand about all this is the
idea that
this movement was started by "users of alternative operating
systems".
Somehow, the press have got it in their heads that we the users
of
Linux, BSD, OS/2, BeOS, and MODOS (to name a very few) started
this
whole refund thing as a stunt to get either fame or fortune.
Although
I, as a user of many open-source operating systems, would love to
take
credit for the idea, the kudos goes entirely to Microsoft.

You see, they quite clearly asked us in big bold print (and
not the
little tiny print at the bottom--no siree!) to return the
unused
software for a refund. We are returning this software at
Microsoft's
invitation, and we thank Microsoft for the opportunity!

This brings me back to my earlier statement. Microsoft is no
stranger
to making news. I'm not surprised, what with the bad press
lately
involving the antitrust trials and the increasingly inaccurately
named
Windows 2000 (affectionately known in the trade press as "the
W2K
problem"). Microsoft has been taking quite a beating in the
trade
journals, and could use a good-natured PR stunt like this.

So although neither of my computers (a DEC Alpha running Linux
and a
DECStation 5000/25 running NetBSD) came with software I didn't
need, I
plan to show up alongside my Bay Area compatriots with a smile on
my
face and an outstretched hand. I plan to thank Microsoft from
the
bottom of my heart for inviting me and millions of other
computer
users down there to unload the burden of this unnecessary
software
package.

I ask, beg, and entreat all of you who participate in your own
events
at various Microsoft offices to give a big warm hug to your
local
Microsoft representative. Goodness knows he or she has deserved
it!

I also have a request for those of you who venture forth to
your OEMs
for your refund. These people are acting as agents for Microsoft
in
this matter, but may not have been fully apprised of the
situation.
There are transcripts all over the net documenting turnarounds of
up
to 6 months in obtaining the refund. Many OEMs are also
unfamiliar
with so-called alternative operating systems, and may become
confused
at the idea of a PC that lacks a Microsoft OS.

Please treat these people gently and with great patience. They
are
left with the burden handed them by Microsoft. In all good deals,
it
seems, someone must take the bullet. It is indeed a pity, but
in
their haste to provide us with a refund option, Microsoft has
neglected to arrange compensation to many of the OEMs for
refunded
software packages.

Your OEM representative may become adamant that a refund is
not in his
or her best interest. The best approach is to express your
regret,
but to inform him or her that your arrangement is with Microsoft,
and
that any arrangement involving the OEM is, unfortunately,
irrelevant.
Perhaps it would be a nice gesture to purchase an extra keyboard
or
two on the way out to keep the money from only flowing in one
direction.

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved
from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front
of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk
(obscurity)

> Thanks for writing! I'll forward your inquiry on to the
various
> organizers. Also, for future reference note that the refund
center
> site has moved to http://www.linuxmall.com/refund/
. Thanks again,

I've just mailed him encouraging him to put up a web page
regarding
his idea (a class-action lawsuit) That way, those people who
are
interested in linking to it can do so.

In other news, I talked with representatives of two Linux
vendors and
two un*x vendors today. I told them that if they want to
encourage
their user groups to come out, that would be good, but we don't
want
this to look like a bunch of software companies all piling on
Microsoft. After all, we're being sweet and polite to
Microsoft
because they're giving us money. So I guess all I've been
saying
today is "that's interesting, put up a web page about it."

The media still loves us -- I talked with the New York Times,
PC Week,
and the San Francisco Chronicle today.

Hi Barry,
Thanks for writing! I'll forward your inquiry on to the
various
organizers. Also, for future reference note that the refund
center
site has moved to http://www.linuxmall.com/refund/
. Thanks again,

-Matt

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:26:35 -0500
> From: Barry Coburn 70252.107@compuserve.com
> To: admin@thenoodle.com,BCoburn@compuserve.com
> Subject: Windows refunds
>
> To: Matt Jensen
>
> I read an article today in The New York Times about Linux
users
> considering making a request en masse for refunds for their
bundled
> Windows operating systems. I am a lawyer in Washington, DC
and very
> interested in the issue. Can you help put me in touch with
anyone who'd
> like to discuss it with me? It seems to me there might be a
class
> action in it.
>
> I can be reached by traditional telephone at (202) 628-4199
or e-mail at
> BCoburn@compuserve.com.
>
> Thanks,
> Barry Coburn
>
>
>

Also, you could contact the people that submitted sample
images to
thenoodle.com. Their addresses and images are on the following
page, which
should NOT be disseminated, as the layout is minimal and I won't
be
maintaining it...

There should be room on the right to add a logo for "The OS of
One's
Choice."

I'm a) not an artist; b) unfamiliar with graphics tools under
Linux. Best
to let the coders code and not try to be an art department.

Is there someone who can come up with banners? I figure all
those M$
windoze surfers might start getting a clue if they saw how many
web sites
DID NOT run Windows. Probably they think most do.

Does anyone know anyone less artistically-challenged than
myself to take
up this feat?

_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org
* http://www.deirdre.net
"The program installed quickly...then, of course, a reboot was
required. I
got my first sense of trouble when my system started spewing
GPFs...this
new beta shows some great features we are all sure to like in the
final
version." -- Elizabeth Powell Crowe, review of IE 5.0 Beta 2

Hi , Rick
In my previous reply, I didn't realize that it was Don Marti who
I contacted
originally about Windows Refund Day, so I was just trying to talk
to more
people like you who were involved in this event. What's a good
time to call
you about it?

> On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 02:58:20PM -0800, Chris DiBona
wrote:
>
> > The real question is this, if we don't accept an
agreement with ms,
> > why should they uphold thier side of it.
>
> Because nothing except the license agreement keeps us from
reverse
> engineering or decompiling the product. If we could refuse
to accept
> the license agreement but still keep the software, we have
the right
> to do anything that's permissible under copyright law,
including Fair
> Use.
>
> We don't just have the _right_ to return the product for a
refund,
> we're _required_ to return it for a refund because Microsoft
refuses
> to allow anyone who's not a signatory to the agreement to
retain
> possession of the software.
>
> (how's that? Rick could do better I'm sure.)

One could point out that Microsoft doesn't want to let anyone
have the
software who is willing to disclose it to someone who is not
properly
licensed.

Therefore, theoretically, Microsoft should never have given
the software
to the OEMs unless the OEMs were going to make sure that the
users would
accept the license. However, since the OEMs didn't make sure of
that
first, _someone_ has made a serious mistake; so we must ask
Microsoft
whose mistake that was (and it clearly wasn't ours).

> Just as no license can bind you if you don't sign it or
click it or
> whatever, how can we expect the msofties to honor it? Not
that I'm
> not going to shove teh eula in thier face on the 15th or
anything,
> but I find it funny.

Without the refund clause, the EULA would definitely be bogus
because
the buyer has no chance to read it before purchase. So if they
refuse
to provide a refund, the entire EULA becomes void, which means
that
regular copyright law kicks in. And just plain regular copyright
law
isn't strong enough "protection" for proprietary software
vendors,
even though it would not allow sharing of sofware among
users.

But again, if that requirement is somethign that is dictated
in a an
agreement that we fundamentally disagree with, that requirement
is moot,
from our perspective, as is the rest of the contract. Thsi is why
most
lawyers think click & envelope licences are bullshit.

Just as no license can bind you if you don't sign it or click
it or
whatever, how can we expect the msofties to honor it? Not that
I'm not
going to shove teh eula in thier face on the 15th or anything,
but I find
it funny.

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Don Marti wrote:
>
> We don't just have the _right_ to return the product for a
refund,
> we're _required_ to return it for a refund because Microsoft
refuses
> to allow anyone who's not a signatory to the agreement to
retain
> possession of the software.
>

=====================================================================
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@zork.net saying
"unsubscribe crackmonkey" in the body of the message.

> The real question is this, if we don't accept an
agreement with ms,
> why should they uphold thier side of it.

Because nothing except the license agreement keeps us from
reverse
engineering or decompiling the product. If we could refuse to
accept
the license agreement but still keep the software, we have the
right
to do anything that's permissible under copyright law, including
Fair
Use.

We don't just have the _right_ to return the product for a
refund,
we're _required_ to return it for a refund because Microsoft
refuses
to allow anyone who's not a signatory to the agreement to
retain
possession of the software.

we didn't get to talk about the windows refund day you are
putting
together. Do you have room for FreeBSD people? Can we pass out
flyers and
CDs (can't teach an old dog new tricks ?) ? I'd like to see if
Nicole and
I can pull together a FreeBSD contingent for Feb. 15.

Josef

--
Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |
Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses

> I had an exchange of e-mail with Jerry Fass fass@pitnet.net, maintainer
> of the Windows Refund page at Mozilla Open Directory. He
seems a good
> guy, so you-all might add him to your list of
co-conspirators.

Me too -- I sent him a comment from the "mail editor" page and
heard
back from him.

> I was reaching him to try to make his press-coverage list
more complete,
> and have now sent him all URLs.

Excellent.

> Also, I wrote back to the fellow who offered the banner
.gif (noted on
> the coverage page), and attempted to sweet-talk him into
doing it without
> "Windoze", etc.

Just talked with Drew Clark at the National Journal of
Technology
Daily, so you might add that to the list of "coverage expected
from."
And I asked Allison Huynh of Penguin Computing to chase down the
Wall
St. Journal guy.

I'm there. I've got an NT workstation package still in the
shrink-wrap
from when I purchased a PC a while back (over a year ago).

Let me know where, when, etc. etc.

D

--

-----------------------------------------------------
Derek Balling "Bill Gates is a monocle and
Technical Yahoo! a white fluffy cat away from
408-530-5062 being a villain in the next
Do You Yahoo!? Bond Film!" - Dennis Miller
-----------------------------------------------------

When I interviewed a Microsoft spokesperson for my story in
InfoWorld, they
told me it wasn't their issue because the OEMs were free to
include any
operating system, and users selected OEMs who sold Windows
machines. They
said (and I didn't go down this path in the story, so I can't
help you
much) that there are smaller OEMs who will sell a computer with
no OS.

And, yes, I do realize there is far more of a push from MS
than they
indicated in that quote.

A partial truth: The licensor is actually Microsoft
Licensing,
Inc., and the OEM is effectively their agent. We feel Microsoft
will
agree that it's in everyone's interest, including its own, to
satisfy users' legitimate refund claims _directly_, in this
case.

I would very much like to be posted regarding the return of
unused win95/98,
as I have app. 350 pcs. which were never used. All machines were
equipped
with other operating systems (fully paid for), and I did not know
the
possibilities of the refund.

In June I will be purchasing a laptop. Likely it will come
from an OEM
like Dell, which will pre-install Windows 98 on it. I plan to
only use
LinuX on that laptop and will not agree to the Microsoft Windows
ELUA.
I am very interested in getting a refund for the license of
Windows that
I will pay for but never use.

It would be great for the TV cameras to see a group of people
under
the SCO banner along with the Linux/Open Source group Rick is
organizing.

I hope you can put out the word to the SCO user groups. And
I'm sure
Rick will link to the appropriate SCO Windows Refund Day
page.

We're probably going to see a lot of Linux T-shirts there, and
I think
some people are doing Linux shirts specifically for the event, so
you
might want to have some SCO shirts printed up too.

Also, to help preserve the friendly festive atmosphere (we're
not mad,
we just want our refund) it would be great if you could get some
of
the famous musical SCO hackers together on a flatbed truck to
play
some good music. Ideally, surf music in honor of your Santa
Cruz
heritage. The truck might be a good place for the SCO user
group
banner, too.

If you have any questions please mail me or call me at
415-308-7272.
You can send announcements to Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net for the
Windows Refund Newsletter.

I just got the message from Rick showing how he answered the
question about
why we should go to Microsoft.

I like his focus, but I think it's important to emphasize
especially that
people have _already repeatedly tried_ to get OEMs to honor the
EULA clause,
and that they uniformly professed unfamiliarity or unwillingness
to comply.
Therefore, we are not just _speculating_ that Microsoft would
rather
handle this -- we are also advising Microsoft that we need its
assistance
to resolve our requests because Microsoft's agents seem to be a
little
unclear on the policy. :-)

>From the current version of my draft press release:

>Geoffrey Bennett, an Australian computer user, reported
last week that he
>had persuaded a computer vendor there to give him a full
refund for his unused
>copy of the Microsoft Windows operating system. But users
here who tried to
>request such a refund from their computer manufacturers said
that the
>manufacturers claimed unfamiliarity with the refund offer. As
a result,
>computer professionals here who don't use Windows have
decided to ask
>Microsoft why American OEMs won't honor the offer, and
whether Microsoft will
>make good on the refund clause in the EULA.
>
>Since the manufacturers were "acting as agent for Microsoft,"
said Rick
>Moen, a San Francisco computer professional, "we feel it's in
Microsoft's,
>the OEM's, and the users' interest to have this refund
handled efficiently,
>directly through Microsoft, and we are estimating they will
agree."

I don't think that the question of "why OEMs won't honor the
offer" is _too_
anti-trustish: as an opponent of the anti-trust suit, it still
strikes me
as a very pressing question to find out "why OEMs won't honor the
offer".
And Microsoft, we can emphasize, is the only one who can give us
the answer
to that question.

It might be a good idea to ask Windows Refund Day participants
to call up
their OEMs personally, if they have not already done so, just to
confirm
that the OEMs have no idea whatsoever what the EULA is talking
about.
This might put the event on a much more concrete foundation, from
the point
of view of the media.

> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:45:05 -0800
> From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
> To: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
> Cc: Tom lattin96@InfoAve.Net
> Subject: Re: refund- Re: After the 15th...
>
> Matt and Tom,
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 02:06:36AM -0800, Matt Jensen
wrote:
>
> > Thanks for writing, glad you're into the idea :-) I
think you're right
> > that something probably needs to happen after the 15th,
too, be it
> > monthly, daily, or something else. Perhaps contingency
plans can be made
> > to prepare for possible outcomes on the 15th (like if
Microsoft says this
> > or that).
>
> If we win -- which I would define as "everyone with a valid
claim gets
> a refund for at least the price of the latest version of Red
Hat plus
> shipping" then we've won and can go home.
>
> Contingency plans for if we don't win on the 15th depend on
how many
> warm bodies we have in front of Microsoft offices -- nothing
more,
> nothing less. If we have too few, we look foolish, Microsoft
looks
> popular and correct, and we'll have to crawl away and lick
our wounds.
> That would represent failure, and I would encourage people
to blame
> _me_ to try to make it reflect less badly on Linux. The best
strategy
> would be for me to be the goat here if things get fucked up,
and for
> someone else to take over.
>
> If we have enough people to look effective for the TV
cameras, but
> Microsoft doesn't come through, we can reschedule for the
following
> month and embarass them. The media will help us -- they'll
say
> "Windows is unpopular but Microsoft's shady back-room deals
with OEMs
> are forcing these people to buy it." (The media love us BTW,
so all
> we have to do is fill those parking lots.)
>
> So tell your friends to be there.
>
> Tom wrote:
> > > So I would like to start a
> > > channel for linux help staffed by people who want
to help others. And
> > > let the world know if you can get to #linuxhelp we
will be there for
> > > you.
>
> Please run off some "where to go for Linux support" fliers
and hand
> them out at the event to publicize your channel. You'll be
able to do
> a lot of good.
>
> --
> Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
> whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
> dmarti@electriclichen.com
San Francisco, California USA

> 1. OEMs are "free" to include any OS they want on their
machines.
>
> 2. The refund clause means what the refund people say, but
you have to
> take it up with your OEM.
>
> Is that how you read MS, too? I expect their lawyers stayed
up all night
> to boil it down to these two "talking points", and they'll
continue to use
> them until they no longer seem effective.

Yes, this is absolutely the course that Adam Sohn is sticking
to in
public. Within Microsoft, there are differences of opinion.

The sensible people there understand that it would be easy for
us to
say "OEM freedom is bullshit -- Microsoft would apply pressure on
any
OEM that didn't enforce a Windows-only policy." We wouldn't even
have
to say it -- the media will call Jamie Love (Ralph Nader's
head
Microsoft watcher) and he'll say it for us.

So the sensible people at Microsoft want to accomodate us
somehow
without giving away a lot of money to people who claim they're
no
longer running Windows but reinstall it from an illegal copy
after
getting their refund.

> Regarding #2, we must ask: what exactly does everyone
want out of
> this?

Here's what I want. I want at least one person at each
Microsoft
office we hit to get a refund check that he or she can show to
the TV
cameras. That's it. I want to be able to declare victory and
go
home.

I think that this will serve one of two long-term goals,
either of
which would work for me, but I don't want to get too complicated
on
the 15th.

Personally, I'd consider either one of the following a
permanent win:

1. Some people get refunds on the 15th. Microsoft itself, or
several
OEMs in all classes of systems (especially laptops)
announce(s)
convenient ways for customers to exercise their rights under
the
refund clause indefinitely. The amount of the refund is at least
the
price of Red Hat Linux direct from Red Hat Software, plus
shipping.
(Yes, Mark, I know you have it at a discount...)

2. Some people get refunds on the 15th. Microsoft announces
that it
will pay refunds until a certain date. Before that date, several
OEMs
in all classes of systems (especially laptops) announce the
availability of high-quality systems without Microsoft Windows.
(Nude
systems should be cheaper than the same systems with Windows by
at
least the price of Red Hat Linux direct from Red Hat, plus
shipping.
Systems bundled with a _fully supported_ open-source OS can be
the
same price.)

> Choose a specific big picture goal, then find the best
turns of
> phrase to frame the debate in our terms. Thanks,

Excellent idea. Everyone should visualize what he or she
would
consider a "we've won, I can go home" situation. And if
Microsoft
offers something that meets those conditions, declare victory and
go
home. I can't tell everyone what his or her goals should be, but
keep
it simple and we'll all win.

Jeff Loomis jal@briar.net
has volunteered to coordinate efforts for the Los
Angeles area for 2/15. He'll be putting up a web page shortly;
until then, add
him to your lists.

Heads up: I got an email this morning from former Usenet Kook
of the Month Joan
"Bill Gates is the Antichrist" Brewer, so just be aware that this
person has a
long history of incoherent babbling about M$ and Bill.

--
_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org
* http://www.deirdre.net
"The program installed quickly...then, of course, a reboot was
required. I
got my first sense of trouble when my system started spewing
GPFs...this
new beta shows some great features we are all sure to like in the
final
version." -- Elizabeth Powell Crowe, review of IE 5.0 Beta 2

Rick Moen wrote:
>
> Michael, my apologies for any confusion.
>
> Clearly, you do _not_ have to run an open-source OS to
qualify
> for refund under the EULA. (I'm also an OS/2 fan, by the
way.)
>
> The wording on http://linuxmafia.com/refund/
reflects the fact that
> we _happen to be open-source activists_. Given that the
response was
> turning out to be overwhelming, we decided to concentrate
_our_ efforts
> on users of Linux and the BSD variants. The Bay Area's
open-source
> community is huge and vocal: Believe me, we're already
having a
> difficult time coordinating all of them.
>
> Naturally, we recognise that other OS communities may wish
to
> carry out similar initiatives (and hope they do!). We not
only
> approve, but will do what we can to help, which so far has
meant
> sharing of information and linking to other people's Web
sites.
> One Windows NT (!) representative asked for (and received)
our
> help organising to carry out mass returns of bundled,
unused
> Win98 software.
>
> If you or anyone else would like to set up a Web page to
> coordinate Windows returns by OS/2 users, we will of
course
> likewise be delighted to help -- and to render any other
> assistance.
>
> You ask about our goal. Our goal is very specific and
focussed:
> It is the return of unused, unwanted, bundled Windows
software by
> PC buyers in the open-source community who reject the EULA
--
> as required and specified by the EULA itself. This is not
a
> "cause", just the assertion of contractual rights.
>
> I stand ready to link to your Web page. Just send the
URL,
> and I'll have it referenced ASAP.
>
> --
> Cheers, Linux: It is now safe to turn on your computer.
> Rick Moen
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com
Thank you so much for your reply. As far as the mass / corporate
returns
of unused copies of win9x are concerned, I have two dozen copies
of that
object under question as well. My Japanese supervisors will
provide me
with the answer to the questions arising from the disposal of
those
objects. I am hoping that the asnwer will be in the affirmative.
I am
also presently awaiting replies to my multiple queries regarding
Web
page space for the OS/2 aspect of this issue (the feeling 'round
here is
that utilizing our server may represent a "conflict of interest"
of some
kind). I shall keep you posted on my progress surrounding this
issue and
its' promotion. Again, thank you very much for your
clarification
relating to the questions I asked.
Michael Overby.

David E. Fox writes:
> > 10,000,000 (by some counts,) Linux'en, at $100 apiece,
thats a billion
> > bucks.
>
> Assuming of course that each person who is running one of
those
> copies of Linux chose it instead of paying a license to MS,
or
> avoided paying such a license to MS. They would have to
ensure,
> of course, that the system they run Linux on did not have
the
> Windows 'tax' applied to it (built it themselves). Or,
perhaps
> these users simply did not choose to upgrade either to
windows
> 3.1, or 95, or 98. If we just restrict the impact of
each
> linuxer avoiding paying $100 (cost of license for Win98)
it
> still could be fairly high (personally, I had a valid
license
> for Win3.1 and MSDOSes up to 5.0 or so but I discovered
Linux
> and abandoned MS long before Windows 95 came out, so I
suppose
> MS didn't get $200 from me), although I don't think it is
as
> high as a billion dollars.
>

Oh, David, it was just some ironic humor-thus the Dilbert
comment. I
don't think many know about it, and of those that do, most
won't
exercise it, IMHO. But if it got into the press it might be
something
like "Goliath=MS has potential billion buck ... from
David=Linux
... who they admit is a competitor." And things like that are
almost
as good as the President and Monica for capturing eye balls.

It kind of puts the MS executives between a rock and a hard
spot. They
have the DOJ thing going, so they have to be careful how they
handle
it. If they don't honor it, there might be statutory damages
under
consumer protection statutes, ie., Magnuson Moss, and assorted
state
equivalents-with all the assorted media issues. However, if they
do
honor it, it could get the press' attention for potentially
having to
shell out big bucks-and spook the shareholders.

I guess that's why MS execs make the big bucks.

It is kind of interesting that they "released" that it was
only a "PR
stunt," which is kind of antagonistic. Probably their best game
plan
would have been to handle it as quietly as possible by
cheerfully
paying off those that asked, which I would imagine that they
know
would be very few-and keep it as low key as possible. And then,
if
that failed, or got out of control, exercise the option of making
the
press release. I don't know. I'm just guessing. Interesting that
they
didn't handle it that way. Maybe they are confident in being able
to
exercise influence over the media. I don't know.

It's good to know there is a way to get my money back for
something I
never use. I've been using Linux for 2 year, and I bought this
Toshiba
Notebook few month ago.

I'd like to get a refund for the Windows98, but the thing is,
it's part
of the recovery CD.

I was wondering if I have to turn in the entire recovery disk
in case I
want a refund? But if something went wrong with my Notebook and I
have
to reset my Notebook then what should I use after I turn in the
Recovery
CD?

Please let me know what I could do. I believe you'd came up
with this
kind of scenario already, and have some sort of solution to
this.

You may remember me from my photos of Linus at the SVLUG
meeting or the
shots from the Great Linux Revolt or "Launch Win98" events. I'm
trying to
decide if it will be worthwhile to drop by Foster City on Feb.
15th with a
still or video camera. My guess is the action inside the office
isn't
going to be very exciting; consisting of some unfortunate staffer
reciting
in a monotone that Microsoft Corp. does not issue refunds and
that your
licence agreement specifies the OEM as the responsible party,
next
please. Also I can't help but wonder if they won't hire security
that day
to keep out cameras out of their office alltogether.

This leaves an outdoor shot of the extent of the gathered
crowd as the
primary interest, plus close-ups showing the diversity of the
free-software
movement, and any small plush animals which may have found their
way to the
event.

If your vision of the event differs in any significant way,
I'd be
interested to hear of it.

> Interesting idea about the banner, and I'm still thinking
about
> that, but thought you might want to hear about our reporter
friend,
> first.

A banner campaign is a good idea, I think. (Hiawatha Bray's
web site
is at: http://www.monitortan.com/ BTW)
But the physical, tangible
presence at their place and in their face is still most
important. We
want them to see, hear, and smell us. And let them know we
smell
their fear.

In other media news, I'm trying to get back in touch with a
guy at the
Wall St. Journal about a story, and inside Microsoft the
discussions
of how to handle the refund and the protest are continuing --
things
have been relatively quiet on our side so far so that we
don't
embarrass the reasonable faction there.

Adam Sohn, Microsoft's pinhead flak, has dangled the threat of
a
counter-demonstration, which we can expect would be heavily
subsidized
by Microsoft (like the sushi at Windows NT user group meetings in
the
Bay Area.) I think that as long as the media know how the
counter-demonstrators have been paid off it won't hurt us, but
it
doesn't hurt to have as many warm bodies there for our side
as
possible.

Just thinking out loud (what else is new) local pages might
want to
add a line like "we're getting a lot of potential participants,
and
we'd like to line up marshals to keep everything cool -- please
mail
us." That would (1) let outside observers know we're coming
in
_strength_ and emphasize the fact that we're going to be
peaceful. I
can line up someone to make armbands for marshals in the Bay
Area
group, I think.

I've been following the Windows Refund movement with interest.
Here's a scenario that may effect even more users: Say you buy a
PC with Win95 or 98 installed, and you intend to install WinNT on
the machine right away. It seems the same logic would apply--why
would you have to pay for Win95/98 if it'll never be used?

Just letting you know that I want to attend on Refund Day. I
can't "not use"
Microsoft products since I have already booted the machines with
the OS
preinstalled, but I'd really like to come out and see how things
go on Feb
15. I doubt that I'd even really say very much, I just want to
watch. If I
could, though, I would be participating in the actual
refund...but I have no
machines that I can honestly say fit the descriptions posted
(never been
booted with Windows installed). I run Red Hat Linux 5.1 at home,
but that
machine has made use of the copy of Windows that was preinstalled
(thus, I
accpeted the terms of the license agreement and am not entitled
to the
refund).

So, as more information is available, I am giving you
permission to add me
to a mailing list or whatever so that I can know the
when-and-where of the
event.

I agree. Right now, Microsoft is turning up the heat on us a
little,
to try to make us do something stupid. We don't want to provoke
the
hard-liners within Microsoft, so we can't fly the "end
bundling/linking" flag too obviously. But if some "faction"
like
Seth's wants to do so, we can link to it. We want to be as simple
as
possible and have a well-defined objective.

The next step in this whole thing is for Microsoft to back off
a
little and make some nice conciliatory noises about clarifying
their
relationships with the OEMs. This should happen today or Monday
at
the latest.

If Microsoft continues to wave the "it's up to the OEM, not
us" flag,
two things are going to happen.

First, Nader's people are going to get involved -- they're on
the
sidelines now, it looks like. Second, many Windows Refund Day
sites
will begin to take the position that it's a waste of time to deal
with
the OEM because the OEM is only a courtier who can't risk
offending
Microsoft. Completely dismissing the OEM.

This can only get the OEMs mad, so it's far better to get a
friendly
statement out of Microsoft now.

So, Seth, I'd look forward to seeing a "challenge bundling"
site from
you, and Rick, if you want to link to it from a
bundling-related
question in the FAQ, that would IMHO be better than diluting
the
"mainstream" Refund Day effort.

> I'll grant that the point bears some discussion, even
though my
> instincts say no. I'd encourage you to bring up the matter
with Don
> Marti, who is effectively chief strategist.

Who, me? As I said, it's pretty clear that our strategy
depends on
Microsoft's next move. If they don't play along as I expect, who
is
ready to take a beating and/or an arrest over this? (We have a
few
already, so no pressure.)

I just recently bought a Dell Insperion 3500. It came with
Works Suite 99,
and I had no option to not get it (apart from spending more to
get the
Office bundle instead).

I run FreeBSD and Windows 98 on this machine. I kept windows
because the
DVD decoder card is not supported under anything else. I
therefore can't
participate in so far as getting a refund for Windows.

But Works has its own EULA, which also has the magic refund
language.
I read the EULA before ever running any of the software
components
of Works, "became horrified" and promptly de-installed the
whole
kit and kaboodle. I have everything that came in the
shrink-wrapped
Works bundle (I had to open it to read the EULA, but the contents
are
intact otherwise), and I swear before heaven and God that I have
not
used the media in any way apart from deinstalling the pre-load on
my
machine (oddly, removing Works itself demanded that I insert CD
#1.
None of the media is or was sealed in any way, other than inside
of
the outer shrinkwrap which contained the EULA).

Every year, SCO sells about 300,000+ copies of UnixWare or
OpenServer. In
addition, over the last year we also supplied 100,000 or so "free
Unix"
licenses http://www.sco.com/freeunix/
so there is a very good chance that
there are a few hundred thousand people who never used Windows on
their
PC's and may be interested in a refund.

Perhaps you are missing a huge number of people who might be
interested in
your rally, or in your helping them save money.

If you have any ideas, you might want to speak to David
Eyesmailto:davidey@scol.com who
looks after Free Unix and Open Source at SCO.

Hello,Rick. I am journalist in Japan and working for Jiji
press.. I'm
very intereseted in your action. I also love your attitude and
idea that
you are not attacking Microsoft.

I would like to inform Japanese user of this action. At
present, I
would like you to let me know how many(Japanese) people are
joining to
this action. I'm really looking forward to your answer although I
know
you are so busy.

Well, learning about this Windows Refund effort is timely.
Just last
week, I was ordering some PCs from a local no-name assembly
company.
When they said the system included Windows98, I replied I didn't
need
that since these were UNIX programmer development workstations
that
would be running FreeBSD. And, I added, we would load the
operating
system ourselves. They said without installing Windows98 they
couldn't
QA test the systems and they really had to charge me $50 per PC
for
Windows or they could credit me if I supplied my own Windows
CD
including CoA, etc, etc. Well, I said, if you're not going to QA
you
should charge me even less. At that point they said they would
have to
get back to me before they could quote a price. When they did, it
was
somewhat higher than I was expecting and it wasn't itemized. Why
do I
have the feeling I'm being charged for Windows anyway? Why do I
have the
feeling it's not possible to buy a PC without paying Bill for
Windows?
At $50 a copy I can't imagine they're making any money. Is it
simply
because the vendor's contract with MS gives them the right to
audit
their PC shipments and requires them to pay solely on the number
of PCs
delivered? Moreover, how can the vendor "prove" he didn't ship
Windows
on the system and is it even worth his effort to try?

It's one thing to get a refund for something "bundled" you're
not using.
It's another to pay for something you didn't even get.

2. Mark has volunteered to host the new Windows Refund
Center,
successor to Matt's pages, at http://www.LinuxMall.com/refund/
Mark,
when you're ready, please let me and/or Matt know so that Matt's
site
gets forwarded over to yours.

3. Nick Moffitt -- nick@zork.net has volunteered to run
the new
Windows Refund Newsletter, so Matt is off the hook for that
too.
Nick's subscription page is at: http://zork.net/refund/

CompUSA is also in the same shopping center as Gateway Country
at the 5 and
Oso Parkway in Mission Viejo.

If you guys want the make this thing really go, I suggest the
group meets in
one place and stays there (the bigger the crowd, the more the
media will pay
attention). And also, have a plan, don't just all show up and
then figure
out how to stage the protest...you'll only look unorganized and
people will
just think it's a joke. Make banners for the camera, xerox
hundered of
flyers educating people on what linux is and how some may get a
refund via
the EULA loophole (I bet that hole closes up real soon!). If
someone is
willing to make CDs at their own penny, that would be good to
give out to
people. Wish I could go but I believe I have to work that day!
Damn!

Fry's will get more business on that day than all of the other
places
combined, so you'll be exposed to more sheep there.

Looks like you two are perhaps the most active refund
enthusiasts I've
seen. So, I'm looking for ideas on how to make this thing run
smoother.

Specifically, I think it's becoming bigger than I expected,
and just
updating the site on thenoodle.com is taking too much time, much
less
making improvements.

I'm not having a nervous breakdown or anything, but I need to
focus on my
day job right now. I knew Linux users would like the idea as much
as me,
but the amount of press coverage was a little surprising.

Would one of you guys, or someone else you know of, be
interested in
hosting an "official" site, and let me direct traffic from
thenoodle.com
to you? windowsrefund.org is available from internic :-) The web
log
currently grows by about 4 megabytes per hour. Another
possibility is to
use the Mozilla Open Directory as a link center, and people could
create
links to email groups etc. and post them there. Thoughts?

My editor wants to focus on what the industry is saying about
this
Microsoft software refund for those who do not use their OS? So
I'm
looking for comments from folks at Microsoft, Dell, etc., as well
as
from OpenSource.org, some consumer protection group, and/or a few
other
folks.

(Note, this is a short article, so, while I'm always happen to
schmooze
and get background, I'll need mostly short quotes -- 1-3
sentences per
person.)

If you're available and feel this is an appropriate topic for
you
to speak about, I'd like to chat (phone or email) **ASAP**.
I'm at 617 969-7947 (home office, East Coast) or ddern@world.std.com

(If you feel this isn't a match, I'd appreciate a reply
letting me
know, so I can pursue other potential sources instead.)

If you're willing to be attributed(*), I'll need the
following
information: Your name, title, full company name, location
(company HQ
or your site), and URL (if any), plus a brief (few word)
description of
what your company does, for use in quoting you. e.g.

> Hey Chris,
>
> Saw your name on a BALUG nametag the other night, but missed
you there. You
> didn't miss much, just a sales guy from Corel NOT telling us
that the
> computer division was about to be acquired.
>
> Anyhow, this magazine (below) sent out a special email alert
this morning,
> mentioning SVLUG and the windows rebate. We've got a writer
working on this
> story.
>
> I wonder if you (as VP of SVLUG) or someone from SVLUG would
be interested
> in talking with him about this? His name is Daniel Dern, and
I've CCd him on
> this email.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: csn@apt.computerwire.comcsn@apt.computerwire.com
> To: csn@apt.computerwire.comcsn@apt.computerwire.com
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 3:49 AM
> Subject: Client Server News 20 1999,
>
>
> > ----------------------------
> > | CLIENT SERVER NEWSFLASH |
> > ----------------------------
> >
> >
> >01. Linux Agitators Want Windows Refunds
> >
> >
> >
> > ClieNT Server NEWS is published weekly by G-2
Computer
> > Intelligence Inc, 3 Maple Place, PO Box 7, Glen
Head,
> > New York 11545-9864, USA
> > Telephone: (516) 759-7025 Fax: (516) 759-7028
> > Publisher: Maureen O'Gara (ogara@g2news.com)
> > US Circulation: Charles Hall (charlie@g2news.com)
> >Senior Editor: Stuart Zipper (nt_editor@msn.com), Denver,
Colorado
> > Associate Editor: R. Rao (rao@g2news.com)
> > Telephone: (303) 759 9256 Fax: (303) 759 9266
> >
> > European Distribution: ComputerWire Plc
> > 4th Floor, 12 Sutton Row, London W1V 5FH, UK.
> > Telephone: +44 (0)171 208 4200 Fax: +44 (0)171 439
1105
> > Enquiries: info@computerwire.co.uk
> > (c) Copyright 1998 G-2 Computer Intelligence Inc.
> > No portion of this publication may be reproduced,
stored in a
> > retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any
means,
> > electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or
otherwise
> > without prior permission of G-2 Computer Intelligence
Inc.
> >
> >
> > New York, January 20 1999
> > Issue Number 283a
> >
> >+ Linux Agitators Want Windows Refunds
> >
> >Wednesday, January 20, 1999 - News of the Australian
Linux
> >devotee who managed to wangle a refund for the unused
copy of
> >Windows 95 that came with a Toshiba laptop has
snowballed
> >overnight into plans for a march on Microsoft's Foster
City,
> >California office by people demanding their money
back.
> >
> >Members of the Silicon Valley Linux Users Group (SVLUG)
have
> >set February 15 for the march, dubbing it "Windows
Refund Day."
> >They're hoping to get hundreds of users of Linux and
other
> >non-Microsoft operating systems to show up waving
unopened
> >copies of the Windows CDs that shipped with their PCs
all
> >demanding refunds. Quite a little photo op.
> >
> >The idea has already spawned a web site dubbed the
Windows
> >Refund Center, hosted by a pro-Linux site called
thenoodle.com,
> >and an e-mail bulletin called the Windows Refund
Newsletter
> >that the noodle is about to launch. Almost 700 people
had
> >signed up for the free e-mail bulletin within 24 hours
of its
> >creation late Tuesday. Thenoodle also suggests that BSD,
BeOS,
> >OS/2 and NetWare users could demand refunds if they
never used
> >the copy of Windows that came with their computers.
> >
> >The catalyst behind the rebellion is Geoffrey Bennett,
a
> >computer systems manager at NetCraft Australia in charge
of the
> >company's Linux sales and consulting staff. After
much
> >hassling, Bennett got a refund for the copy of Windows
that
> >came with a laptop he finally bought after futile
attempts to
> >buy the machine without the Windows operating system. He
says
> >it took six months of arguing with Toshiba, but he
finally got
> >his check in August. The story surfaced in the past few
days,
> >setting off a furor in the Linux community, whose
members have
> >long complained of their inability to buy Intel-based
PCs
> >without Windows and have pondered how to make their
case.
> >
> >In the call to march posted on a SVLUG member site
called
> >linuxmafia.com, there is a detailed checklist of what
is
> >thought to be needed to demand a Windows refund. First
is that
> >the envelope containing Windows has to be unopened. It
also
> >warns folks to dig up copies of their invoices,
Windows
> >end-user license agreements (EULAs), Linux disks and
> >documentation such as printouts of disk drive partition
tables
> >to prove they're not running Windows.
> >
> >Meanwhile, Linux newsgroups are chattering over how,
if
> >Microsoft refunds their money, the exercise could reveal
how
> >much each OEM pays Redmond for Windows. In theory, at
least,
> >any refund due a user should amount to the portion of
the total
> >cost of the system Windows represents. Microsoft has
labored
> >mightily to keep the exact price that different OEMs pay
for
> >Windows secret. Last week at its antitrust trial it got
Judge
> >Thomas Penfield Jackson to agree to keep the data under
seal.
> >
> >- Stuart Zipper
> >
> >
> >
>

I am a reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer in Pennsylvania,
and I am
very interested in the Windows refund story. (I have been
following it on
Slashdot.Org for awhile.)

Anyway, if you have made an attempt to get such a refund, I
would really
like to talk to you. My phone # is 215-702-7814 (or just email
your # to me
so my paper can pick up the tab.) Or if you know someone else
directly...

-Jack Brown

ps--I am personally gearing up to install Linux on my own
laptop; I wish I
had thought of this possibility when I bought it. Anyway, I am
fairly
tech-savvy, so I won't be screwing up the details of the
story....

Sure, go ahead and add me to the list. I've been trying for
the last month to
return win98 and Microsoft Works to the manufacturer of my new
PC. I'd been
calling them, and finally got the guy's email address on Monday.
He has yet
to respond, so maybe this will get their attention. Fow whatever
it's worth,
the manufacturer is emachines, based in Fremont. If anyone else
has purchased
one of their PCs, I have the name, phone number, and email
address of the
person to contact there.

> I think the Return Windows day is a great idea. But I do
have a concern
about
> how effective it will be. The EULA stipulates that we are to
go to the
> manufacturer to obtain a refund. By the terms of the EULA,
Microsoft is not
> obligated to allow us to return their software.

True, but we are trying to negotiate arrangements to do this
through
Microsoft's business office in Foster City, anyway, in an
organised and
in-person group visit. It is in Microsoft's interest to allow
this in
a friendly and businesslike manner, _and_ in the interest of
Linux
enthusiasts to arrange things that way.

There will, of course, be press coverage. ;->

> Any information regarding when people are heading up to
Microsoft? I would
> love to go....

Your best bet is to sign up for the Windows Refund newsletter
athttp://www.thenoodle.com/refund/.
We'll try to make developing
news for the Bay Area available there. In case that doesn't work,
by
your leave, I'll add your name/e-mail address to a list I'm
starting here.

I am interested in shooting and editing a short video about
your February
15, "Microsoft refund" event, as it sounds like a good human
interest story.

Please post the time of day for your event, and directions to
the Foster
City Microsoft office at your convenience.

If you have additional background material that is not
available on your web
site, please provide links or e-mail back with attachments so I
can prepare
some questions to ask on camera before the shoot.

I can't personally ask for a refund, as I've been successful
in avoiding
M$, personally and professionally (my boxes are running MacOS
8.1, QNX
4.23, and NextStep 3.3, soon to be joined by LinuxPPC R5 and
NetBSD).

All the same, I'd like to wish you all the best for Windows
Refund Day.
I'm hoping people receive their due refunds, and, perhaps more
importantly,
that it wakes up more Intel(-compatible) OEMs to the fact that
there really
*are* people who don't use these "bargain" copies of Microsoft's
OSs.

And yes, I'd be happy to see Apple offer /their/ wares
"naked", too. I'm
personally quite happy with 8.1 (though, as you may appreciate,
it's OS X
I'm looking forward to. I was an Acorn RISCOS user until 1995
(when my old
Archimedes A310 died), and was introduced to NextStep in the same
year. A
fusion of the well considered design of NextStep, atop BSD 4.4,
alongside
all the existing application benefits of MacOS.. it's going to be
fun.
Slashdot comments posters will have a tough time considering
whether to
approve of its Unix side, or disapprove of its Apple side, though
:), but
it'd be simply very considerate of Apple to offer the hardware
without the
software side.

Perhaps I'll come along anyway, and record the proceedings.
Hi-8 camcorder
plus a PBG3 266 - I could encode the results in something like
H.263 (not
as smooth as Sorenson or Cinepak, but much faster) and have it
uploaded by
cable modem within an hour or two. Hm. I may have to give that
further
consideration.

Don tells me that you've been collecting the names and contact
info of
people who are interested in being marshals on Monday. Can you
please send
me their information? I need to contact them and let them know
who I am
and what my role is. I also want to make them aware of the
FCPD
status, radio communication stuff, and set some ground rules.

Here is the Foster City PD info on the parking garage
location,
straight from Lt. Carey himself:

> Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you, but I have
just
> gotten confirmation from Spieker properties that they will
dedicate
> their east garage to this event. Our plan will be to block
off the
> top level of the garage so that cars will not be up there
and there
> will be sufficient room for whatever crowd shows up. I have
spoken
> with Microsoft and they will be setting up a "satellite"
office on
> the top floor of the garage. This will minimize any
disruption to
> other tenants in the building.
>
> You can include the location on your web site. The
directions you
> currently have listed are excellent as they give exact
directions
> into the garage facility. There should be sufficient parking
in the
> other three levels of the garage to handle participants.

Rick plans to post the directions for all parts of the Bay
Area by Friday,
maybe tonight if all the details come together. He has designated
a
meeting point in San Mateo which will be on his page.

For those of us from the South Bay, we'll be meeting at 10AM
Monday at the
Marriott Hotel in Santa Clara, at the back parking lot near the
tennis
courts. (For those who want a precise reference, we'll meet at
post "F7".)

For those who have Ham Radio licenses, please consider coming
along to help
even if you don't qualify for a refund. Bring your 70cm radio.
We'll use
them enroute and on-site for communication.
--
Ian Kluft KO6YQ PP-ASEL Cisco Systems, Inc.ikluft@cisco.com (work)
ikluft@thunder.sbay.org
(home) San Jose, CA

Rick has now posted Windows Refund Day meeting locations and
contact e-mail
addresses on the Bay Area Windows Refund Day web site. He has
also posted
maps for all sites, and directions for two of the four assembly
points.

For the benefit of East Bay participants, the MacArthur BART
is at 555 40th
Street in Oakland.

Unfortunately, there are no driving directions provided, but
the street
address might be helpful for those who are driving. You can also
call the
BART system at (510)465-BART to learn how to get there.

It is very important for Windows Refund Day participants to
meet one of the
parade marshals, since they will have up-to-date news on where to
go and what
to do in Foster City. In particular, Windows Refund participants
should _not_
simply go up and knock on Microsoft's door, since Microsoft may
well have made
alternate arrangements of some sort in the meantime. Therefore,
please
contact your friendly local posse organizer.

Rick is swamped with mail and updating the Windows Refund Day
site, so
he has asked me to get this mail out. All 4 posse points are
now
listed on the site.

- The four posse points are the only locations we will
publicize or
at which we will encourage people to gather.

- Please organize your attendees to carpool and use the
minimum number
of vehicles.

- The Denny's parking lot location

Denny's
2920 S Norfolk St
San Mateo, CA 94403

is confidential, to be discussed only with your drivers on
Monday.

We will have the option of using the Denny's lot, the
Microsoft-provided free parking, or one of two alternate
locations.

The plan is to meet at the posse points and head to Denny's --
unless
you hear different from Rick or me.

Please mention only the four posse points in any public
discussions,
so that in the unlikely case we have to change something we don't
have
a bunch of stragglers who don't check their mail showing up at
the
wrong place.

The Foster City Police Dept. is aware of this event and I am
in
ongoing discussions with the watch commander who will be on
duty
Monday. Everything is cool with the police so far and we all want
to
keep it that way.

Please send me and Rick any relevant contact phone numbers
for
yourselves for the weekend and for Monday.

Of course, I meant "unfortunately" in the sense of "because
Rick is still
hard at work on it", not in the sense of "because Rick is
being
negligent".

Nick mentioned some of the communications with the Foster City
police, so
I was trying to emphasize to people that they should meet in an
orderly
way and not annoy Microsoft. At least it's clear that we have
Microsoft
worried about the size of the thing.

Might I suggest that there should also be a publicized meeting
point in
Foster City for the benefit of people coming in on their own (via
CalTrain,
etc.)? Obviously, they should meet with a parade marshall.

Including ones from India, Malaysia, France, Australia,
New
Zealand, England, Sweden, and the Netherlands.

--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by
the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at
your
rick (at) linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth
David Schoen

On Monday, February 15, the Bay Area FreeBSD community can
join with
other PC users in returning unused, unwanted, bundled copies of
Win9x
and other Microsoft software _to Microsoft_ in Foster City,
for
refund. With television coverage and reporters from all over
the
world.

The event is being coordinated with similar events (the same
day)
in Orange County, New York City, New Zealand, France, Japan, and
the
Netherlands -- and has gotten huge amounts of publicity. See:http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html
(all articles, and timeline)

Oakland: Meet Posse organizer Scott
McNeil at the passenger pickup zone at
the entrance to MacArthur BART, no later
than 10 AM. Also, please notify Scott
immediately that you will be coming, atebay@linuxmafia.com.
Please include if
you can offer or are in need of a ride!
Please note that the BART parking lot is
for BART patrons. There is nearby
on-street parking. (Directions.) (Map.)

Stick around, because we're also going to have a party to
remember
afterwards, at The CoffeeNet in San Francisco.

Wear your BSD t-shirts! Bring pitchforks and images of Chuck
the daemon!
Heck, bring BSDI and the blessed ghost of CSRG; it's going to be
a blast,
in any event.

--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by
the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at
your
rick (at) linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth
David Schoen

yup, the article looks good, you've done a great job. go ahead
and publish
it on the web. please note that the article was actually
published in the
March 99 issue. (i had written it in jan end feb first week, and
our
publication issue is really March 99)

also, would like to do a follow up article, a post february
15th article.
would like to interview you for that. have already talked with
dr.
Venkataraman in New Zealand.

On Monday, February 15, the Bay Area FreeBSD community can join
with
other PC users in returning unused, unwanted, bundled copies of
Win9x
and other Microsoft software _to Microsoft_ in Foster City,
for
refund. With television coverage and reporters from all over
the
world.

The event is being coordinated with similar events (the same
day)
in Orange County, New York City, New Zealand, France, Japan, and
the
Netherlands -- and has gotten huge amounts of publicity. See:http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html
(all articles, and timeline)

We are also getting a large amount of press coverage. At last
count we had
62 articles including ones from India, Malaysia, France,
Australia, New
Zealand, England, Sweden, and the Netherlands. Copies of these
articles can
be found at http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html

A whole flock of people from SCO are even hoping to turn up,
_and_
maybe some from Sun Microsystems. And that's not to mention
the
party in San Francisco, afterwards.

==> Oakland: Meet Posse organizer Scott McNeil at the
passenger pickup
zone at the entrance to MacArthur BART, no later than 10 AM.
Also,
please notify Scott immediately that you will be coming, atebay@linuxmafia.com.
Please include if you can offer or are in need
of a ride! Please note that the BART parking lot is for BART
patrons. There is nearby on-street parking. (Directions.)
(Map.)

I will be endeavoring to return a copy of Works that came with
my
Dell laptop. I will bring the packet, the laptop (to prove that
it
is deinstalled), and the bill of sale (proving that the laptop
did
once come with Works).

yup! this sounds good. india suffers from rigor mortis when it
comes to
microsoft's near monopoly, making it nearly impossible to make
'em shake
out of it. plus apple made a complete hash of themselves here. am
gonna
write about people in various geographic regions of this
sub-continent to
implement the windows refund centre, post feb 15th. that makes
more sense
here, understanding the weird psychographics of the people. so
the
interview with all you guys is gonna be interesting, to say the
least.

> I just counted all the articles listed at
> http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html:
>
> Sixty-two.
>
> Including pieces from India, Malaysia, France, England, New
Zealand,
> Australia, Scotland, Sweden, the Netherlands, and the
USA.

that's quite cool. however, i had hoped this thing would've
snow-balled
into something bigger than this. wonder why it hasn't.

I'm trying to contact Matt Jensen about his Windows refund
effort for
Linux and other OS users. I cover Silicon Valley for a Canadian
daily,
the National Post, and would like to write a story on the issue.
Any
help would be appreciated, thanks.

> I agree with Mike about posting meeting locations
immediately.
>
> (I would normally not post an "I agree" message, but this is
a rather
> small list, so the "me too" phenomenon isn't harmful the way
it might
> be on, say, SVLUG.)
>
> --
> Seth David Schoen / schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
> He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will
do." And they
> said, "Nay, but we will have a king over us, that we also
may be like all the
> nations." (1 Sam 8) http://ishmael.geecs.org/~sigma/http://www.loyalty.org/

The New York Refund Day activities will center near to
Microsoft's NYC
headquarters at 50th Street and Eighth Avenue. We have invited
Microsoft
to send a spokesmodel over to our demonstration of how to get a
refund cum
press conference but so far they have not agreed. If Microsoft
sends
anybody on Monday we'll let them in, of course. Our demonstration
will
take place across the street from Microosft headquauarters. We'll
post
exact times and places on the website this evening, and alert our
people
via several mailing lists.

I think we are going to invite the top ten OEMs, Microsoft,
and Apple to
come to New York sometime in March to hold open public
discussions with
the local free software tribes about some of the important issues
arising
from their long history of anti-competitive practice and
unfairness to the
end user.

Couldn't be more thrilled with this movement against
Microsoft. I am
the Director of Communications for a pharmaceutical company and I
own my
own business.

My company resells & implements firewalls and web sites
based on the
Linux OS as well as our own OS.

The pharmaceutical company I work for has some 500 PCs running
WinNT. I
am seriously considering the dumping WinNT for Slackware Linux
2.2.0 and
Wordperfect 8 for Linux. I have 486 Linux boxes that out-perform
our NT
and Novell servers!

Most of our groupware that we use in NT is now available for
Linux.
I've been with Linux since it made it's debute on the Internet
because
my company has also written it's own OS called PozicNOS.
www.pozicom.net is the web site.

I am also a big follower of ReactOS. ReactOS is an open source
WinNT
OS. That is, ReactOS is to WindowsNT what Linux is to SCO,
Solaris,
AIX, etc Unix.

Realizing your refund day is only 3 days away, do you know of
any such
groups in Michigan that are doing this. I just became aware of
this
yesterday.

On Monday, February 15, the Bay Area FreeBSD community can
join with
other PC users in returning unused, unwanted, bundled copies of
Win9x
and other Microsoft software _to Microsoft_ in Foster City,
for
refund. With television coverage and reporters from all over
the
world.

The event is being coordinated with similar events (the same
day)
in Orange County, New York City, New Zealand, France, Japan, and
the
Netherlands -- and has gotten huge amounts of publicity. See:http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html
(all articles, and timeline)

We are also getting a large amount of press coverage. At last
count we had
62 articles including ones from India, Malaysia, France,
Australia, New
Zealand, England, Sweden, and the Netherlands. Copies of these
articles can
be found at http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html

A whole flock of people from SCO are even hoping to turn up,
_and_
maybe some from Sun Microsystems. And that's not to mention
the
party in San Francisco, afterwards.

==> Oakland: Meet Posse organizer Scott McNeil at the
passenger pickup
zone at the entrance to MacArthur BART, no later than 10 AM.
Also,
please notify Scott immediately that you will be coming, atebay@linuxmafia.com.
Please include if you can offer or are in need
of a ride! Please note that the BART parking lot is for BART
patrons. There is nearby on-street parking. (Directions.)
(Map.)

yup! this sounds good. india suffers from rigor mortis when it
comes to
microsoft's near monopoly, making it nearly impossible to make
'em shake
out of it. plus apple made a complete hash of themselves here. am
gonna
write about people in various geographic regions of this
sub-continent to
implement the windows refund centre, post feb 15th. that makes
more sense
here, understanding the weird psychographics of the people. so
the
interview with all you guys is gonna be interesting, to say the
least.

> I just counted all the articles listed at
> http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html:
>
> Sixty-two.
>
> Including pieces from India, Malaysia, France, England, New
Zealand,
> Australia, Scotland, Sweden, the Netherlands, and the
USA.

that's quite cool. however, i had hoped this thing would've
snow-balled
into something bigger than this. wonder why it hasn't.

We are going to assemble at noon on Monday at the Eighth
Avenue entrance
of the building at 50th Street and Eighth Avenue which houses
Microsoft's
NYC headquarters. Who knows what we will do, but we will do
something
there. We have a room at the Day's Hotel across the street and
from noon
until 6:00 pm we shall be available to reporters and we shall be
taking
delivery of three computers and recording carefully the first
bootings,
the removals of all bits of Microsoft OSes from the hard disks,
the
swearings of the affidavits, and the mailings to the OEMs of our
requests
for a refund. After that we'll install various free OSes on the
three
machines and explain the advantages, fair advantages, which free
OSes have
over source secret single vendor OSes, and we'll explain the
unfair
advantages the source secret OSes have amongst the 85% of
computer buyers
who are not sophisticates with regard to computers. We expect
some
interested observers from various consumer groups, government
agencies,
etc., and we hope that Microsoft sends over a
spokesmodel^Wspokesperson so
they get a chance to tell their side of the story.

I don't know if you've seen the Windows Refund Day site
lately, but
there will be an after-party at the Coffeenet, 744 Harrison St.,
San
Francisco. It's an Internet cafe. You guys are all invited, and
if
you'd like to plug in your MBONE equipment there will be
network
connectivity available.

On Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 01:02:23PM -0500, MikeMillen@aol.com wrote:
> Would you be willing to put a link to my analysis in your
next
> newsletter? You can find it at http://millen.cc

Actually, I've been thinking about doing an analysis of
your
analysis and how it fits into the windows refund day. You see,
we've
been trying as hard as is possible not to confuse the issues
by
getting into antitrust, clickwrap, or any other sort of
"Microsoft is
being bad" type of thinking. The success of this effort has
hinged on
the fact that our message is simple: We are owed a refund.

However, the fact that there is an actual body of law that
enforces this may just be the thing we need to successfully get
our
refunds out of them in a decent amount of time. I'd like to see
the
next newsletter come out soon. I'll probably set to work on it
this
evening.

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved
from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front
of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk
(obscurity)

I hope y'all are planning on coming to our Windows Refund
Day
event. I was just at the local Bay Area FreeBSD User Group
meeting,
and may have succeeded in getting the better part of fifty of
them
to come. Joseph Grosch asked me to send something for theannounce@bafug.org
mailing list, and it follows.

We need to have lots of penguins among the BSD daemons,
too!
Please don't forget to send e-mail as indicated below, to let
us know you'll be coming.

On Monday, February 15, the Bay Area FreeBSD community can
join with
other PC users in returning unused, unwanted, bundled copies of
Win9x
and other Microsoft software _to Microsoft_ in Foster City,
for
refund. With television coverage and reporters from all over
the
world.

The event is being coordinated with similar events (the same
day)
in Orange County, New York City, New Zealand, France, Japan, and
the
Netherlands -- and has gotten huge amounts of publicity. See:http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html
(all articles, and timeline)

Oakland: Meet Posse organizer Scott
McNeil at the passenger pickup zone at
the entrance to MacArthur BART, no later
than 10 AM. Also, please notify Scott
immediately that you will be coming, atebay@linuxmafia.com.
Please include if
you can offer or are in need of a ride!
Please note that the BART parking lot is
for BART patrons. There is nearby
on-street parking. (Directions.) (Map.)

Including ones from India, Malaysia, France, Australia,
New
Zealand, England, Sweden, and the Netherlands.

--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by
the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at
your
rick (at) linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth
David Schoen

On Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 04:10:15PM -0800, Don Marti wrote:
> >From one of my many phone conversations today:
>
> Reporter: I'm just calling to ask you some questions again.
I had a
> system crash and I lost a lot of information.
>
> Me: That's too bad -- what kind of system?
>
> Reporter: Guess. I've already used it, otherwise I'd bring
it in on
> Refund Day.
>
> Does the media love us or what?

You know, I had a similar gripe from an interviewer that
called me up yesterday. "Oh, hangon" she said, "Oh man! Windows
just
erased all my notes! No, wait, here--let me get a pad of
paper."

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved
from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front
of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk
(obscurity)

I intend to get a refund on the win98 packet that came with my
Magio.
Details:
* yes, my vendor knew I didn't want it.
* I installed Turbo Linux on it, and habe no MSwin partition.
* I may at some point change Linux disty's or change it to
FreeNSD, but
I do not intend to ever run MS windows on it.
* Ricoh has no special policy as yet what to do about a
refund-on-bundled-software request.
* I really don't know what the EULA in this pack says, because
it's
still sealed, with only the "Certificate of Authenticity"
showing

My hubby Jim will be there, but he hasn't got copies to
refund. Once
upon
a time ago, he really did get use out of DOS, so I guess that
means he
used it ... never using the GUI doesn't mean it's not part of the
kit.

OK, I just posted stuff on ba.announce about Windows Refund
Day (and the
expected smallness of CalLUG that day due to that and the
Presidents'
Day holiday). I carefully did _not_ tell people the address of
the
Microsoft office in Foster City, encouraging them instead to read
the
web site and come to one of the four assembly points to join a
carpool.

Just a reminder... As the Bay Area's Windows refund site says
at...http://hugin.imat.com/refund/
please e-mail one of the meeting point coordinators to let them
know
you're coming. It will help with headcount estimates. (Many
thanks to
those who already have done so.)

Saturday afternoon I'll be at work but probably in a lab and
not next to
my phone most of the time. So page me if you have something
urgent then.
--
Ian Kluft KO6YQ PP-ASEL Cisco Systems, Inc.ikluft@cisco.com (work)
ikluft@thunder.sbay.org
(home) San Jose, CA

Quoting Ian Kluft (ikluft@cisco.com):
>> From: marc_news@merlins.org (Marc
MERLIN)
>
>> I'm sorry, by directions I meant: where do we meet? what
time? It's in 4
>> days, maybe it's time do know...
>
> Rick plans to post the directions for all parts of the Bay
Area by Friday,
> maybe tonight if all the details come together. He has
designated a
> meeting point in San Mateo which will be on his page.

Just in case there's any residual confusion, the above doesn't
apply.
There are exactly _FOUR_ meeting points:

(1) It'd be very natural to just show up en-masse at
Microsoft's
Foster City office in the usual, spontaneous SVLUG fashion.
DON'T DO THAT, this time. We _need_ you to actually go via
one of the four "Posse" locations. There are important things
you'll miss, if you don't. You don't want to miss them.

This, unfortunately, is an open mailing list: you'll hear
more
in person, on Monday.

(2) To do carpooling, we need to find out who's coming. We
need to know NOW. That's why the instructions onhttp://linuxmafia.com/refund/
say to e-mail one of the four
Posse Leaders that you're coming. Do it NOW. Include how
MANY of you there are.

(3) Carpools require cars. If you can, drive one to the
Posse
location.

I'm _serious_ about the above.
Thank you.

--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by
the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at
your
rick (at) linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth
David Schoen

If Microsoft refuses to honor their own licensing agreement,
IMHO, that
means the agreement is invalid. That means the packages may be
resold. If
MS refuses to take the packages back, I'd recommend auctioning
'em off
through eBay.

Top Idea. I had with my Toshiba (again new) all include din
two CD and
afterwards I formatted the HD, but no way to get all run , like
the
speaker etc. without the MS Windows 95 or 98

I use Netscape as I found the file to split out the Explorer ,
so I have
only Windows 98, but - are there peoples in Thailand? (I am
here!)
starting the same action.
I sued successful 1997 MSN as - just another case of fraud, they
made as
purchase the windows 95 and we got MSN in Thailand immediate -
then
after around 6 weeks the number has been shot down.
So , we have MSN without access, but again it is promised in
Windows. I
am really getting made with MS and I just hope that something
come out
to stop this Monster and - layer.
Only promises and better things, but once installed I always have
to
spend a hell of Money just to get all the 'up-dates'
Just today I want to install my Norton program, to get the swap
file
and the the HD good done. Once installed the message appears that
my
Norton don't work with the Toshiba Windows version and I must
again
'upgrade'. But the newer Version of Norton takes 23 Megs and
install the
Virus program, so I had to delete it, because - no more space for
my
Winfax.

It's really got what you are doing and I personally find, that
MS's B.
Gates committed a hell of fraud, selling this Windows 95 with the
'MSN'
promises, then this stupid Window 98 with all this useless files
of a
stupid browser , just to make as paying more and more MS
products.
Hope he will end for fraud one day in Prison.

Sorry, I am not a Pro and I would use Linux immediate but I
could not
install it. I did it, but after my Modem and other things didn't
work.
I tried the other Opera, but here I still need Windows.
So hopefully someone clever comes out with a god old OS, which
includes
a browser and a word or write program. The I will burn the same
day all
MS products in front of the MS OFFice here in Bangkok.
OK Good luck for you all and keep in touch,

I'll be attending WRD. I don't have software to refund. I can
drive
(have an X-Cab p/u, good for 2 passengers (more at a squeeze)
plus an
outlandish amount of gear. Planning to show at the San Francisco
meet.

I am a photographer who works for most of the major financial
and news
magazines. I'd very much like some more information on the event
so that
I might cover it. Have you any press materials? I too am not out
to
embarass MS, but it is a newsworthy event.
Thanks,
Jason Grow
415.431.8273 phone/fax

As you know, I have been generating interest on MS Refund Day
at
Stanford...and I have a question about logistics: is there a
meeting point
closer to campus? Some of us are considering meeting at
Tressider
Student Union and proceeding from there...what do you think of
having a
meeting point more convenient for students in the
mid-pennisula?

We (TeamOS/2 Deutschland eV) wrote an open letter to AgV, the
umbrella
organisation of the consumer protection organisations in germany
to help consumers to
avoid unused licenses and to have a look at the EULA.

Hello. I'm a journalist working for LA Weekly, an
"alternative" news and
entertainment newspaper in Los Angeles.

I'm interested in covering the Feb. 15 Refund Day event in the
Bay Area,
but before I gas up my car and rush northward, I was hoping you
could
tell me what kind of media response you've gotten so far: i.e.,
is every
newspaper in the state going to be blanket covering this event?
It's
gonna take me a week or so before my piece hits print, and I'm
just
wondering how scooped I'll be.....

FYI The other day I asked whether the press had been notified,
and you
responded by asking if I was volunteering to contact them.

I sent the press release below to the Chronicle, Examiner, and
Wall St.
Journal newspapers and to KCBS radio. If I can get through to the
NPR fax
number, I'll send it there, too.

JB

Non-Windows Users Seek Refund at Foster City Event

FOSTER CITY, California (February 15, 1999)-Windows Refund Day
participants
in the San Francisco Bay Area are convening at the offices of
Microsoft
Corp. to request refunds for unused copies of Microsoft Windows.
The Bay
Area action is one of several refund requests occurring around
the world on
February 15. Other sites include Southern California, New York,
New
Zealand, Japan, and Europe.

In the Bay Area, participants are meeting at locations in
Mountain View,
Oakland, San Francisco, and Santa Clara at 10:00 AM. From there
they are
traveling in groups to the Foster City offices of Microsoft.
Organizers
expect the activity to be peaceful. Volunteer parade marshals are
helping
to manage the group.

Participants are users of operating systems other than
Microsoft Windows;
examples of such operating systems include Linux, IBM Corp.'s
OS/2, and Be
Inc.'s BeOS. As the sale of personal computers is typically tied
to the
sale of Microsoft Windows, users of alternative operating system
typically
cannot avoid buying a copy of Windows when buying personal
computers.
However, Microsoft's end-user license agreement (EULA) stipulates
that
users who do not agree to the agreement's terms should return the
software
for a refund. It is under the terms of the EULA that Windows
Refund Day
participants are seeking refunds.

Microsoft's reaction to Windows Refund Day is to be
determined. The
company has steadily increased its market share over the past
fifteen
years. Even IBM, with its vast resources and well-regarded OS/2
product,
has been unable to compete effectively against Microsoft.
Recently,
however, freely distributed operating systems such as Linux and
FreeBSD are
gaining acceptance, but still account for a tiny fraction of the
market.
In deciding how to react to the event, Microsoft is forced to
weigh whether
the impact of facilitating the refund process will be only the
small
immediate cost of the refunds or a far-reaching disturbance of
its business
model.
Further information is available at:

3. standard telephone extension cords, various mating devices,
and a
toolkit for dealing with these things

4. CDs of various free OSes, with boot disks, if possible

5. as many boot/root/rescue kits as possible

6. blank floppies

7. magic markers and large sheets of paper.

We are pretty sure we have enough laptops, but more are always
welcome.

If you do not bring any of the above come anyway! You are
welcome just as
you are!

Reminder:

Some will assemble at noon at the entrance of the
building,
825 Eighth Avenue, which is between 50th and 49th Streets. All
afternoon,
others will come to that site, and also to the Day's Hotel,
at 790 Eighth Avenue, between 49th and 48th Streets. Ask for the
room of
LXNY. This event is an all afternoon event, and we will be in the
room
from noon until 6:00 pm. Three Official Buyers will take delivery
of
their machines, and demonstrate that end users need not pay for
what they
do not want and will not use. All this will be carefully recorded
and
published.

Due to an invitation from my friend Sylvester, I'm planning to
show up at
your assembly point in Oakland rather than (as I was originally
planning)
in San Francisco. I look forward to seeing you there tomorrow
morning.

> need to know NOW. That's why the instructions on
> http://linuxmafia.com/refund/
say to e-mail one of the four
> Posse Leaders that you're coming. Do it NOW. Include how
> MANY of you there are.
> I'm _serious_ about the above.
> Thank you.
>
> --
> Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by
the
> Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at
your
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth
David Schoen
>
> --
> echo "unsubscribe svlug" | mail majordomo@svlug.org
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to
unsubscribe
> see http://www.svlug.org/mdstuff/lists.shtml
for posting guidelines.
>

This particular license (interesting as it is) appears to
apply only to
the File & Print (Client) services component that accompanies
Windows NT
server, and not to any other software. I agree that the scope of
what
it applies to is rather unclear, and that it appears to confer
unlmited
replication rights within a given entity.

> (I'm just going to mail my CD/license to Toshiba HQ;
> I know it will be too late for Refund Day but I've
> been too busy wrestling with servers. At least it
> will add to their pile of feedback...)
>
> I think this will reach you. I'm tuning the config
> of this new mail server. I just installed Postfix
> (although I told it to identify itself as Sendmail
> on the SMTP port in case a script kiddie tries to
> irritate it).

Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
>
> I don't know how much you know about the Windows Refund
movement, where
> unused copies of Windows have been being attempted to be
returned per the
> End User License Agreement for refund. However, these
refunds have been
> consistently denied. The main page is at http://www.linuxmall.com/refund/
>
> Some of us involved in the movement wondered why Microsoft
flew the "group
> manager" for Windows, Rob Bennett, from Washington to Foster
City
> California for a small protest -- especially since the
Microsoft people
> were remarkably inaccessible during the event.
>
> My intuition is that it is related to the terms of the EULA
(End User
> License Agreement) and the 1995 consent decree.
>
> Per the memorandum at:
> http://web.lawcrawler.com/microsoft/usdoj/cases/0102.htm
>
> This is a memorandum by the judge when the proposed
settlement (that later
> became the consent decree) was "not good enough"
>
> "This exception allows for certain Per System Licenses. A
per system
> license means a license for a particular system or model.
The decree
> allows OEMs to designate identical machines containing
different operating
> systems as distinct systems. This is intended to prevent
OEMs from paying
> royalties to Microsoft for all the computers of a certain
system even if
> some do not include a Microsoft operating system."
>
> Ultimately the OEM *would not* pay M$ for copies, at least
that was the
> judge's intent. In fact, that was the very reason
per-processor licenses
> were prohibited in the consent decree per the document found
at:
> http://web.lawcrawler.com/microsoft/usdoj/cases/0045.htm
>
> In other words, M$ expects to lose a LOT of revenue over all
this, and
> that's no doubt why Microsoft was worried. A CNN poll
today
> (http://www.cnn.com/POLL/results/99971.html)
showed that 84% of users who
> voted would seek a refund for Windows.
>
> The OEMs who have refused to pay refunds have stated that
their contract
> with Microsoft does not allow it. Yet Microsoft's statement
(found at
> http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/dear-valued-customer.html
and, except for
> the address at the top, identical to the copy I received in
Irvine, CA on
> 2/15/99) states "At the request of the PC makers that
license Windows for
> resale, Microsoft must direct you to the PC maker from which
you purchased
> your copy of Windows."
>
> However, if it really was at their request, why do they not
know about it?
>
> An additional aspect to the Microsoft anti-trust trial can
be found in
> that letter. As you both know, Microsoft has been waving
around Linux as
> its biggest competitor. However, per the "Dear Valued
Customer" letter:
> "In fact, more than 200,000 PC makers worldwide will allow
you to choose
> which exact components you want on your PC, from processor
to video card
> to operating system software. According to the LINUX.ORG Web
site, more
> than 60 OEMs in 14 countries offer PCs with LINUX
preinstalled."
>
> 60 OEMs (Linux) vs. 200,000 OEMs (Windows) is microscopic.
In fact, almost
> all those copies of Linux they seem so worried about were
people who *had
> already paid* for Windows, whether voluntarily or not. In my
opinion, this
> ratio, much more than the installed base, reflects the true
monopoly
> position of Microsoft.
>
> _Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org
* http://www.deirdre.net
> Q: Where do you want to go today? A: The 9th Floor

My name is Felix. I like to keep track of what's happening
(when I can)
with what's happening with the Microsoft trial through links, and
happened
upon this one in a press release. I'm curious as to how the
event went, and
did Microsoft comply with their license agreement by refunding
you the cost
of the OS.

I personally am a Windows user although I hope to be buying a pc
soon and
set up a dual boot for Windows and Linux. I have a copy of
Caldera but
everything I read is Red Hat Red Hat Red Hat. Is this
the version I want
then?

Just FYI, a recent press release says IBM will start selling pc's
with Red
Hat preinstalled and provide customer and technical
support. It'll be
interesting to see how this commercialization will affect the
free software
movement.

I understand that Sun also makes Solaris 7 available for free if
for
non-commercial and educational use. Any ideas if there is a
users group out
there I could glean info from about it. In fact, any best
url's for free or
evaluation os' would be a help.

I'm sure you're busy so if I'm imposing, just want to say you
guys have one
more person behind you all.

informing users and collecting information on Refund actions
in Germany.
At the Moment I'm concentrating on statements on the legal
situation
with the German EULA (speaking of refund for just the "unused"
product).

> Honestly, I dont know...
>
>
> If you look at memo by Kempin's on the DOJ web site
>
> http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/exhibits/365.pdf
>
> MS is getting concerned about the fact that OEMs could
>
> try to avoid the $750*10^6 figure, but especially the 10%
of
>
> overall price figure.

I agree. My guess is that within a few months, and not six
months, we'll
see small cheap remote administratable machines running a free OS
coming
into the market. I wonder what eMachines pays Microsoft for the
W9* on
their $400 model. I suspect that it is really $26 and not $50
.

>
>
> That seems to really imply that OEM *could* escape MS,

It would just take one head of one OEM to say when Microsoft
says "Put
Windows on all your machines, or we will not license Windows on
any of
your machines." "All right, good. No Windows for us.". Of course
the OEM
should have planned for this moment and have a better OS ready to
go, but
that is rather easy.

>
> but I have still to be convinced that one OEM could
>
> survive long enough to MS pressure (no beta to test
>
> your equipment on new versions, no information on new
>
> features, programs that crash *just* on your machine,
>
> double prices on windows/office, FUD^10, etc.) to be able to
start
>
> selling the "alternative", and to see profits coming in
>
> before competing OEM eat him up.

Well, the approzimately $750*10^6 saved would come in useful
here, I
think.

>
>
> One should remember that in the OEM market, *there is*
>
> competition, [IMHO, one of the factors that made OSS
success
>
> possible is precisely the fact that OSS is not subject (not
directly)
>
> to the kind of pressure MS could put on a competitor]:
probably
>
> OEM are eagerly waiting for *somebody else* to do it
>
> (wonder why the same DELL that refuses to refund
>
> my 4 copies of Win95 is the first to come hurrying to give
us
>
> PCs for Linux demos... :-))

I agree.

>
>
> After all, maybe what we are all doing here is the real
solution
>
> to this monopoly/stupidity problem
>
>
> --Roberto Di Cosmo

I think it is. I think that the consumer choice issue in both
the USA and
Europe is more important than the issue of how Microsoft deals
with Sun
and Netscape.

> <nofill>Hi there, I have been reading the legal
documents on the
> case for a long time, and the remarks in judge Sporkins'
> document are exactly the same put forth in the excerpt
> of the consent decree on the French site (sorry, it is
> in french :-))...
>
> The notion of "different model name for identical
machines"
> is *exactly* the kind of machinery that may allow OEM to
> get the money back from Microsoft on EULA refunds... but
> they just *don't* do it!!!!!
>
> Let's explain how they could very simply do all this:
>
> 1) duplicate all model names... for all model name N
> introduce model name N-NW (for No Windows :-))
>
> 2) sell the machines you want to sell, with Windows
presintalled if you want,
> and keep your accounting, putting all these in the "N" model
category
>
> 3) when you get a refund request, pay for it upfront, send
the customer a sticker
> with the "N-NW" model name to stick over the "N" model name,
then
> in your accounting declare one "returned model N" and one
"sold model N-NW"
>
> 4) at the end of the year, make the final adjustments, and
you pay MS royalties
> *only* for the "N" models, not the "N-NW" ones.
> </nofill>
>
> Isn't it simple? The point is that OEM DONT DO IT because
they are scared
> to hell...
> <nofill>

But, of course, the big OEMs have no reason whatsoever to be
afraid.
Microsoft was able to extract monopoly prices for its software
only
because the heads of all the big OEMs are incompetent. Today a
high
executive of Compaq testified that a few years ago when Microsoft
raised
its prices on OSes Compaq simply paid the increase rather than
start
selling some other OS. How much did Compaq pay? $750*10^6 . Now
how
much would it have cost Compaq to produce, or buy, a better OS
than W9*?
Certainly considerably less than $750*10^6 . Why did Compaq not
simply do
this, or merely explain the real situation to Microsoft? Because
Compaq
is incompetent.

All Microsoft needed to do for many years was simply swindle
the heads of
the big OEMs. Microsoft's only customers are ten
incompetents.

> (I'll tell you that I got on national Radio here in France
in a rather pro-MS
> emission that of course edited pretty much my intervention,
but the journalists
> admitted that they did not find one OEM who dared to say
live what they said to
> </nofill>the off the record. Of course, this was
dismissed as a "respectful
> attitude towards the
> <nofill>
> powerful")
>
> --Roberto Di Cosmo

The OEMs are much more at fault here than Microsoft. At any
point they
could have made more money by offering end users a choice of
OSes, rather
than foisting W9* on a public who simply did not know any
better.

"respectful attitude toward the powerful" no, rather, delusion
as to the
actual power relations. The free software movement did not have
$750*10^6
and yet we were able to produce a system.

<nofill>Hi there, I have been reading the legal
documents on the
case for a long time, and the remarks in judge Sporkins'
document are exactly the same put forth in the excerpt
of the consent decree on the French site (sorry, it is
in french :-))...

The notion of "different model name for identical
machines"
is *exactly* the kind of machinery that may allow OEM to
get the money back from Microsoft on EULA refunds... but
they just *don't* do it!!!!!

Let's explain how they could very simply do all this:

1) duplicate all model names... for all model name N
introduce model name N-NW (for No Windows :-))

2) sell the machines you want to sell, with Windows
presintalled if you want,
and keep your accounting, putting all these in the "N" model
category

3) when you get a refund request, pay for it upfront, send the
customer a sticker
with the "N-NW" model name to stick over the "N" model name,
then
in your accounting declare one "returned model N" and one "sold
model N-NW"

4) at the end of the year, make the final adjustments, and you
pay MS royalties
*only* for the "N" models, not the "N-NW" ones.
</nofill>

Isn't it simple? The point is that OEM DONT DO IT because they
are scared
to hell...
<nofill>
(I'll tell you that I got on national Radio here in France in a
rather pro-MS
emission that of course edited pretty much my intervention, but
the journalists
admitted that they did not find one OEM who dared to say live
what they said to
</nofill>the off the record. Of course, this was dismissed
as a "respectful
attitude towards the
<nofill>
powerful")

Thanks for a great interview. I forgot to tell you that it'll
be out in
realaudio also. You will be able to find it at
www.dr.dk/harddisk/realaudi/

It'll be out about friday I suppose.

It'll of course be mostly in danish, but perhaps your
norwegian genes will
help you through. Danish and Norwegian is REALLY close. We danes
used to own
the place you know ;-) Now we can't even beat them in soccer
;-(

> Rick, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
>
> On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Rick Moen wrote:
>
> > Quoting rjray@tsoft.com:
> >
> > > To have not expected MS to have their PR machine
in high-gear would be a
> > > grave oversight, but I don't know if this was the
case.
> >
> > They did not really have it out at all, which seems
surpassingly strange,
> > at first glance. I have some speculations on why, and
the picture is
> > starting to look very interesting.
>
> _Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org
* http://www.deirdre.net
> Q: Where do you want to go today? A: The 9th Floor

After the Windows Refund Day party, Rick and Nick and I were
talking with
Richard Couture, proprietor of the CoffeeNet, Rick's landlord,
etc., and
(as I learned) former collection agent or something similar. He
was
talking about lawsuits and small claims and such, and came to
the
conclusion that something was very fishy about what happened in
Foster City;
he felt that either Microsoft was hiding something big, or
Microsoft was
monumentally stupid and ill-advised. Rick and Nick and I were all
somewhat
persuaded by the plausibility of his argument for this, although
it's hard
for me to paraphrase it.

One interesting thing was that Microsoft sent Rob Bennett, the
"group manager"
for Windows itself, out from Redmond to Foster City. Bennett is
responsible
for Microsoft's overall Windows strategy -- an _extremely_
high-up
executive -- and, by virtue of his position, arguably knows more
about
Windows marketing, licensing, and strategy than _any other person
in the
entire world_.

It is therefore interesting that Microsoft would send such an
important and
knowledgeable person all the way from Washington to California to
attend a
small protest and to give minor comments to the press. I would
guess that
they did not do this in order to give a few Linux users the
pleasure of
saying that they had personally asked the man who was in charge
of Microsoft
Windows for a refund. :-)

Seriously, Bennett was a very high-ranking and important
person to have on
hand for an ostensibly very minor function. Therefore we can have
additional
conspiracy theories about what exactly he was doing there. (The
press were
confused enough that he was identified at times as a "Microsoft
spokesman",
which is manifestly _not_ his job description at all; he is
occasionally
asked for comment about very broad Windows issues, such as
security
problems or product announcements, but he is, I believe, not
primarily
supposed to be talking directly to the press.)

Also, Microsoft people cleverly avoided being asked the
"Questions for The
Man" on camera, as far as I could tell. That would have been
particularly
devastating and/or interesting, but it did not happen -- as Rick
(or Don?)
said, the Microsoft reps were "very scarce" after a certain point
in the
event.

My name is Jens Aagren Poder, and I'm a Journalist. I work for
Radio
Denmark, and I've been covering Refund Day for a
Technology/Culture
programme called The Harddisc.

I've been told by Don Marti (Electric Lichen, he gave me your
e-mail by the
way), that you were responsible for organising the Refund Day, in
the San
Fransisco Bay Area.

I would like to do a short interview with you TODAY if
possible, to talk
about what happened monday. It will take about 10 minutes over
the phone. I
understand, that you had a series of "Questions for the Man:",
what was the
response on those?

You can hear the radio-interview I did with Geoffrey Bennett
and Don Marti
at this adress:
www.dr.dk/harddisk/realaudi/905ref.ram
It mostly in danish, but you can hear what response I got from
Geoffrey and
Don.

I hope you will mail me back as soon as you read this
mail.

Thank you very much
Jens Poder, Radio Denmarkjag@dr.dk
www.dr.dk/harddisk/jag.htm

I'm a Journalist working for Radio Denmark. I have been
covering Refund Day
for our Technology/Culture programme The Harddisc
(www.dr.dk/harddisk).

I would very much like to talk to someone who attended the
Refund Day in the
US. (the refund movement didn't catch on in Denmark). Therefore
if you have
got some time to do a short radio-interview (10 minutes or so),
or know of
anyone who'd be interested (and interesting), then please mail me
back, then
we can talk.

You can hear the feature I did on "Refund Day" with Geoffrey
Bennett and Don
Marti (from Electric Lichen) on this address:
www.dr.dk/harddisk/realaudi/905ref.ram
Most of it is in danish but you'll be able to hear Geoffrey and
Don.

[T]he basic Windows refund problem is that it can't go
much
further than publicity stunt level until there is a real
competitor. Given that $25 is neither here nor there, we're
not going to see a mass user revolt, while for the PC
manufacturers the pain-gain ratio will remain tilted in
Windows favour, unless of course demand for, say, Linux
in the consumer market forces their hand. As some of the
demonstrators yesterday pointed out, the issue is choice,
not money, and it won't be solved until the PC companies
start offering choice.

Throwing my $US 0.02 into the "how should we behave ourselves on
camera"
discussion, I'd like to note that when a bunch of people who
were
fanatically trying to promote their software held a bash for
the
cameras:

- They got a band to sing a song.
- They got a comedian to tell jokes.
- The got a bunch of people together with food and drink to
make noise.
- They decorated a bunch of buildings.
- Most of which had zilch to do with running a real operating
system.

The fact that the product, Windows 95, had zilch to do with
running a
real operating system is noted. However, I don't think Microsoft
felt
any great shame about its publicity stunt (not sure about the
software).

WRD was a publicity stunt. It wasn't a measured legal debate
or
discussion of the merits of Windows or Linux. It made TV news, it
made
the papers. TV news coverage (KRON, KPIX) was even
quasi-intelligent.
Made the front page of The New York Times. Pretty fscking
awesome. The
media likes a bit of a circus, a bit of a carnival. Y'all
delivered,
and didn't look like goons in the process (psst, I've got a
secret:
Microsoft looked like cheating, guilty dweebs). (Another secret:
I may
be biased).

Wish I was there (waking up is hard to do....). Kudos to all
involved.

Now that a few days have passed for you to think about it, I
am curious
how you feel Refund Day went for you there in California? Do you
feel it
was sucessful? Something that should be repeated?

And of course, how did the Linux Journal's go over? I thought
that you
would enjoy the stickers and other goodies that I put in there.
If you
have any of the stuff left over, feel free to pass it out at your
next LUG
or something.

> Oh baby!
>
> This is big!
>
> Give yourself a big hand guys, this is all a part of the
awareness you
> raised.

But that class action suit doesn't seem to charge that
Microsoft or the OEMs
violated the EULA, so it's _not_ clear that it arises out of
Windows Refund
Day in any way. It just says that they charged "monopoly prices".
Um.

Wow, I take that back, and stand corrected: the class action
suit was filed
by Charles Lingo, whom I don't know, but who was a participant in
the Bay
Area Windows Refund Day event (quoted in various media outlets, I
recall).
The unsuccessful attempt "to return the software" is mentioned.
So apparently
this suit _does_ stem directly from Windows Refund Day after
all.

Of course, I'm unhappy that this is happening under antitrust
law rather than
contract law. On the other hand, the relevant conspiracy in
restraint of
trade _was_ a conspiracy to violate or evade contracts (the
EULA!), so I may
not have that much to complain about.

> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Seth David Schoen wrote:
>
> > But that class action suit doesn't seem to charge that
Microsoft or the OEMs
> > violated the EULA, so it's _not_ clear that it arises
out of Windows Refund
> > Day in any way. It just says that they charged
"monopoly prices". Um.
> >
> > Wow, I take that back, and stand corrected: the class
action suit was filed
> > by Charles Lingo, whom I don't know, but who was a
participant in the Bay
> > Area Windows Refund Day event (quoted in various media
outlets, I recall).
> > The unsuccessful attempt "to return the software" is
mentioned. So apparently
> > this suit _does_ stem directly from Windows Refund Day
after all.
>
> Can anyone find me this Charles Lingo person? I'd really
like to join the
> suit. :)

I was looking in the SVLUG archives at egroups.com (formerly
findmail.com)
to see if he had ever posted to SVLUG, but their search engine is
down right
now.

I did look up one of the articles in which he was quoted. What
do you know?
He's an OS/2 user!

It seems that the effort to attract users of operating systems
other than
Linux was successful: one of them came along and decided to sue
Microsoft.
:-)

> > Of course, I'm unhappy that this is happening under
antitrust law rather than
> > contract law. On the other hand, the relevant
conspiracy in restraint of
> > trade _was_ a conspiracy to violate or evade contracts
(the EULA!), so I may
> > not have that much to complain about.
>
> The point of antitrust law is that one does not come to an
agreement
> through consent but rather through force.

I see no force involved anywhere in the computer industry, and
certainly not
in Microsoft's licensing. I thought the point of antitrust law
was an
attempt to enforce a public policy decision that there ought to
be a certain
level of competition observed in every market, or at least every
market that
involves enough money to attract attention and publicity. (And
then that
whatever agreements tend to counteract this are invalid and even
criminal.)

> Many years ago, I sold
> role-playing game supplies at conventions and ONLY at
conventions. I
> didn't want a store; for me, this was a break from my daily
life. Two
> distributors and a retail store tried to get me ousted from
the con
> because I sold at (the horror!) a discount. The convention
was considering
> it until I pointed out that this was price-fixing and was
illegal. As I
> had typically made about $6k on such weekends, they could
pay me $18k and
> I wouldn't show up.

Well, if it's their convention, I think they should get to set
whatever
policies they want for participation in it, including terms of
membership,
attendence, and pricing policies.

Obviously, the current regime of commercial law does not agree
with me.

> Strangely enough, I got a VERY good spot at the show.
Funny that.

Next time you're in the CoffeeNet, ask Richard Couture to tell
you his story
about the landlord, the lease, and the lawyer. :-)