Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

When you post nonsense on a forum, you have to expect to get called on it. If you choose a word or words that have meanings other than what you intend, don't complain about all of the readers.

Here's the deal, aiki is NOT some "je ne sais quoi". It is a skill - specifically giving strength based on internal arts. Some have a better way to develop it than others. If you mean fortitude, then say that.

You like your aikido devoid of aiki, fine. Enjoy. You feel that putting aiki back into aikido is a fad. Good luck with that approach. To me, it's just an idea and its time has come.

(This is absurd as the people who demand video of INTERNAL martial arts and wonder why they can't see it. Hint, because it is "internal"...)

m2c,
Ultimately; Mike has to be right. MA is Martial Art. The ultimate goals of a MA has to be martial. It's in the f*n name.
Pursuing MA means doing it the absolute best you can. The most earnest. This, by definition must include the best way to move your body. This is the IT we shall not mention.

That said; we now have gendai budo, and the general modern redefinition of martial arts. Where little johnny goes to mcdojo and has a blackbelt at 14 years old. Like everyone else who started 3 years ago.

What about this:

Quote:

aikido is a tool that can be used for a multitude of purposes.
vs
studying aikido for mastery is the only legitimate/honest way.

Agree or disagree?:

This is a slight reframing of 'Blarg is what I want it to be'. Is it a substantial difference? Is it valid, or dishonest? If its a tool; people will use if for different things. Some of those things have to be less than the ultimate possibility. At the end, in reality, we find ourselves where few or none have hit this 'ultimate' marked by O Sensei.

Ignorance is bliss in many ways.
the flipside of that:
Whosoever increases their knowledge increases their sorrow.

I think aiki can definitely increase your sorrow. physically, for one. it seems to be marked a difficult path. right? if someone chooses not to undertake it, is it less of them? If someone has an engineering or physics degree but doesn't have the PhD, is that the same? Not genuine? Cowardice? Weak? Kidding themselves? Not the best?
i guess we all judge it different. But in all honesty; there is only 1 'the Best'. That is its definition.

Here is something else I found:
If you are vectored on some goal; say like being the ultimate Martial Artist..then that is the target. This means that you have now forfeited many future decisions, due to their not being in line & helpful in attaining the goal. So, when earnestly pursuing something to its ultimate end; I have found practically this amounts to a loss of ability to choose freely...which can amount to a loss of free-will. It is for this reason that I think it *extraordinarily* important what you focus your intent on.

Dan repeatedly says that this training isn't for everybody. I think that it must be true. AFAIK it is too hard for everyone. Isn't there always a level that is just out of reach anyway? Doesn't the whole martial arts 'process' have this built into it...where we start in a broad road...and it gets narrower and narrower (and people fall off) as things get more and more dangerous, fast, powerful & elite.... Where we all find ourselves somewhere on this road...whether it be at the peak (Sagawa, Ueshiba, ..) or the perennial white belt grandma whose victory is just showing up after her hip replacement. there's gotta be room for that. no? aikido is for the world? That doesn't mean everybody gets a big red ribbon with 'winner' on it. But it kind of does.
When we take responsibility for our training..I guess your understanding is in your own hands. I think, truth be told, many people doing martial arts are not 'martial artists'. They will always stand alone.

In Dan's .sig it says "Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing." I have been thinking about that. It is said that on average people are average. In fact, that is the definition. Does anyone think the average person will be doing Aiki/bodyskill? Is that realistic? This is the pinnacle of the MA.. the _highest_ manifestation of martial body skill. Long after that road has narrowed and narrowed and narrowed it appears....
that said...It is a strange thing that so many of us even know ITs name now. As if it were a common thing. Not having each of ourselves having traveled and survived that harrowing road. It is because of efforts of Mike, Dan, Ark and the other outspoken brothers, on whose shoulders we now (fortunately) find ourselves. But we know how to name IT. That, in itself is HUGE!! I think.
IT is there to pursue for those l33t enough to undertake it. That is enough. To know its name..and that the challenge is there if you seek it. Isn't this how it always was?

I do not think it is for everybody. Do you?
....
But I also think that self-delusion is a great evil..and one of the easiest things in the world to do.

sorry if this is OT, Buck... i just wanted to share some thoughts.
Josh

I don't have an issue with that. I just think both sides should be willing to respect the other. Phrases like "fad" carry some baggage of their own.

Very true! I think it's also important to remember people think of terms differently. To some, "fad" might be somewhat darogatory; to others it might not be. What ever the case, it's important for people to maintain respect...or at least to keep working in that direction. Otherwise, what's the point of the conversation other than to bang your own drum?

Quote:

A balance is always nice.

Best,
Ron

I agree. I think balance is the best option: I like the full meal deal.

It may come across as that to some who really don't read what I post, see what they want to see or put allot of credit into Aikido and O'Sensei, or those who just misread me. I am a person who recognizes his skill and understands it is a difficult road to reach the heights he did. And I look at myself as person who feels looking at O'Sensei in his original/pure/honest way is beneficial.

But how do you know any of this. Did you actually meet him and study with him?

Have you layed hands on anyone that actually studied with him for any great length of time?

Have you layed hands on the Next generation after that...you know the 6th Dans that learned from his Ushi Deshi?

I have, and I still can't say for sure what is honest and pure about any of it.

I will tell you that in all cases, I felt what they had and I didn't.

Then I get with Ark and Mike and feel that they have it as well AND in addition, they are willing to show me a way to develop this stuff.

I am a part of ASU which is Saotome Sensei's organization. I have taken Ukemi for Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei. Saotome Sensei (Shihan) was Ushi Deshi for 15 years or so with O Sensei.

If this type of training is good for Saotome's senior students and Ikeda sensei then I feel pretty comfortable that they have a inkling of understanding of what O Sensei wanted and was about.

More so than me for sure.

Buck, if you don't mind, from what authority or experiences are you drawing your conclusion about being able to recognize what O sensei's "real aikido" is all about?

I am not challenging you...but since you make this statement, I think it would be beneficial to the conversation to have a better understanding about how you are forming your conclusions?

When you post nonsense on a forum, you have to expect to get called on it. If you choose a word or words that have meanings other than what you intend, don't complain about all of the readers.

Here's the deal, aiki is NOT some "je ne sais quoi". It is a skill - specifically giving strength based on internal arts. Some have a better way to develop it than others. If you mean fortitude, then say that.

You like your aikido devoid of aiki, fine. Enjoy. You feel that putting aiki back into aikido is a fad. Good luck with that approach. To me, it's just an idea and its time has come.

(This is absurd as the people who demand video of INTERNAL martial arts and wonder why they can't see it. Hint, because it is "internal"...)

Rob

Rob and all ( and you know who you are) calm down, things are really getting out of hand with you guys!

I am sorry that I don't feel the same why you do. So what, am I that important for all this effort you are putting into me? You clearly, demonstrate an a insistence to rational and reasonable communication. It is very much like what bullies do, I suggest taking a different approach then what you are doing now.

Now if you feel the need to continue with this OT and unproductive posting behavior, I will be glad to respectfully read what you and everyone else in your camp has to say. Please write it all out in your next post, get it all off your chests. Flame me, I can take it. But just get it all off your chests. I am just concerned from reading yours and other post from your camp that one of you is going to have a heat attack or something. : )

Rob.....umm I am not demanding a video from your camp or anyone else. I am not demanding anything actually. The simple fact is, from your camp there isn't a vid out there. Mike put one out, I got a good look at what he does without spending $1500.00 for a plane ticket, hotel, rental car, gas, food, PLUS the cost for me to see him do his thing. That isn't what it will cost me in lost wages. I know that is how you make your living be teaching people our methods of what we are all missing, but why not come to me if you what to show me something. My goodness people I am a middle management, I am not made of money.

God knows the way your posting toward me, ya'd think it was the second coming of the Spanish Inquisition, or the Salem Witch Trials revisited. If that is how you convince people, by bashing them. WOW. I wouldn't be in my right mind not make a visit and stay 3 states away you guys

But how do you know any of this. Did you actually meet him and study with him?

Have you layed hands on anyone that actually studied with him for any great length of time?

Have you layed hands on the Next generation after that...you know the 6th Dans that learned from his Ushi Deshi?

I have, and I still can't say for sure what is honest and pure about any of it.

I will tell you that in all cases, I felt what they had and I didn't.

Then I get with Ark and Mike and feel that they have it as well AND in addition, they are willing to show me a way to develop this stuff.

I am a part of ASU which is Saotome Sensei's organization. I have taken Ukemi for Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei. Saotome Sensei (Shihan) was Ushi Deshi for 15 years or so with O Sensei.

If this type of training is good for Saotome's senior students and Ikeda sensei then I feel pretty comfortable that they have a inkling of understanding of what O Sensei wanted and was about.

More so than me for sure.

Buck, if you don't mind, from what authority or experiences are you drawing your conclusion about being able to recognize what O sensei's "real aikido" is all about?

I am not challenging you...but since you make this statement, I think it would be beneficial to the conversation to have a better understanding about how you are forming your conclusions?

I layed mine out above.

Kevin,

If you haven't noticed this thread isn't about that. Sorry, I know this is your favorite subject and all, but the thread is about true internal strength. Not everything is about the "internal strength" movement, for lack of a better phrase

In all sincereness, what you guys don't realize your are pretty selfish, and self-absorded, and for some obsessed and fanatical about your "internal strength" movement. And it is pretty inconsiderate to others who share similar experiences that I did, to sideswipe this thread because it interferes with your branding. There are people out there who might need a boost of confidence to know where they can get the strength to get through another day, to over-come the over-whelming challenges they face. By knowing they can dig down deep inside and find strength, and that is what other people have done too, and are doing the same thing, can be inspiring to make positive changes. And that for some might be taking an Aikido class something they might that isn't intimidating, like other martial arts and MMA can be. Because as far as I know this is still an Aikido board.

I am only responding to what you write. You say you KNOW what O Sensei meant and I am asking you a very simple question. HOW DO YOU KNOW?

I personally believe you are wrong in your view point, but I am willing to listen and give you the benefit of the doubt provided that you provide qualified answers.

It seems like when I ask you a direct question you redirect the question saying that it isn't about what I am talking about.

That is not fair to me.

BTW, no one is talking about anything intimidating or about any macho crap.

If you knew me and the others that are posting here we are being anything but selfish.

You would also find that we are a very kind and generous bunch of guys. I have personally met many of the guys on that are posting here and I actually resent that you form that assumption. It is not fair and unfounded.

No one that has ever been on the mat with me would say that I am make them uncomfortable or intimidated in anyway.

Anyway, I am starting to think that TRUE IINTERNAL STRENGTH is the ability to refrain further from paying any attention to you since you are not really interested in discussing things normal discourse which means if you make a statement you are willing to argue/debate your point in a proper way.

I am only responding to what you write. You say you KNOW what O Sensei meant and I am asking you a very simple question. HOW DO YOU KNOW?

I personally believe you are wrong in your view point, but I am willing to listen and give you the benefit of the doubt provided that you provide qualified answers.

It seems like when I ask you a direct question you redirect the question saying that it isn't about what I am talking about.

That is not fair to me.

BTW, no one is talking about anything intimidating or about any macho crap.

If you knew me and the others that are posting here we are being anything but selfish.

You would also find that we are a very kind and generous bunch of guys. I have personally met many of the guys on that are posting here and I actually resent that you form that assumption. It is not fair and unfounded.

No one that has ever been on the mat with me would say that I am make them uncomfortable or intimidated in anyway.

Anyway, I am starting to think that TRUE IINTERNAL STRENGTH is the ability to refrain further from paying any attention to you since you are not really interested in discussing things normal discourse which means if you make a statement you are willing to argue/debate your point in a proper way.

And I am simply asking you let's put it to rest. Its not a game I want to play, the endless circling the wagons, and never resolving anything. Remember what I said. It isn't about that and your stuff.
Why can't you respect that, why are you against giving it a rest? Besides it has nothing to do with you, I didn't mention you, I was responding to Mike- my bad. Life is too short for looping . There are other people out there, like myself, who could benefit from an Aikido class or hearing you talk as a military person on true internal strength. Like making it through a tough situation. Why expend all your time on this game you want to play? I think you have a lot of valuable knowledge to share in terms of building confidence, and character, over coming difficulties reaching deep down in side and getting internal strength, and how the relates to Aikido, since you are an Aikidoka. Be the the bridge, not the troll - you know that old story "Bill Goat Gruff", faciliate the positive. Don't prove me wrong.

I want to apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes -wearing zori -concerning the OT stuff. People its not worth it to continue. Really, believe it or not I do have a life. And the past few days posting doesn't prove that at all, but I do. And am sure many of you all do too. Let's get back to that. Well, at least I know I will, I have too.

And I am simply asking you let's put it to rest. Its not a game I want to play, the endless circling the wagons, and never resolving anything. Remember what I said. It isn't about that and your stuff.
Why can't you respect that, why are you against giving it a rest? Besides it has nothing to do with you, I didn't mention you, I was responding to Mike- my bad. Life is too short for looping . There are other people out there, like myself, who could benefit from an Aikido class or hearing you talk as a military person on true internal strength. Like making it through a tough situation. Why expend all your time on this game you want to play? I think you have a lot of valuable knowledge to share in terms of building confidence, and character, over coming difficulties reaching deep down in side and getting internal strength, and how the relates to Aikido, since you are an Aikidoka. Be the the bridge, not the troll - you know that old story "Bill Goat Gruff", faciliate the positive. Don't prove me wrong.

I'll probably get an admonishment from Jun on this Buck, but iMO you Passive Aggressive and I should have realized it a while ago.

I have no issues with your experiences and what aikido means to you and what you draw from it.

I do have issues with the empirical statements that you make on various topics with no proven factual basis. All I was asking was for you to explain in a little greater detail on what experience, basis, literature etc you are basing your conclusions in an attempt to better understand your positions which I do not necessarily agree with

The simple fact is, from your camp there isn't a vid out there. Mike put one out, I got a good look at what he does without spending $1500.00 for a plane ticket, hotel, rental car, gas, food, PLUS the cost for me to see him do his thing. That isn't what it will cost me in lost wages. I know that is how you make your living be teaching people our methods of what we are all missing, but why not come to me if you what to show me something. My goodness people I am a middle management, I am not made of money.

Looking isn't the same as feeling...as has been reiterated before. It's exactly that kind of attitude that exacts mockery from the very people that took it on themselves to go and check it out.

I think you should get some hands on time with someone if time and money permits. I think you'll be surprised to find that if you could hack the training (and yes, the unavoidable fact is that a large part of it is still physical), it provides everything you've just been ranting about, and more.
And it would make sense as to why Ueshiba started spouting about love, peace, teddy bears, and the universal theory of everything.

There are people out there who might need a boost of confidence to know where they can get the strength to get through another day, to over-come the over-whelming challenges they face. By knowing they can dig down deep inside and find strength, and that is what other people have done too, and are doing the same thing, can be inspiring to make positive changes. And that for some might be taking an Aikido class something they might that isn't intimidating, like other martial arts and MMA can be.

So Aikido is for people with such a low self-esteem any martial art besides Aikido is too intimidating to practice?

And what makes Aikido such a good practice to develop True Internal Strength? Why not go rock climbing, marathon running, build model ships or anything else in which you participate in a community that is involved with activities that require fortitude, etc.?

No real arguement there with me, Mike. If someone wants to redefine words to suit their own purposes though, it doesn't really affect my practice. I'll call them on it, and then move on (hopefully) so that others can see a different perspective.

As long as the disinformation is countered, I don't think a public board is the place to squabble over it, necessarily. This board doesn't function like an engineering conference, or a mathmatics conference. For one thing, in those cases, most anyone who has a slot for a presentation has been subjected to peer review BEFORE they present. That isn't the case here.

So yeah, people have the right to say things *I* might think are ill advised, or wrong, or whatever. The only means to deal with it is to speak up from my own perspective. If someone wants more of a peer review process, QiJin can provide that. I only get a little ticked when the same person who wants to redifine stuff, also wants to control what others can say in response...then they should put up their own board, and talk to themselves all day, since that is all they want to hear.

Say, remember the old rec.martial-arts.moderated? That was an attempt for a more peer reviewed process. Is it still around?

Best,
Ron

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

I dunno, Ron... I think that at a math convention it is probably a waste of time to treat the guy talking about "The Sacred Wisdom of the Kami", etc., with some kind of equivalence if he shows that he obviously doesn't know the subject of math and is applying his own definitions to it. One of the reasons Aikido and Aikido discussions get dismissed so easily in the Outer World is because of this imbued equivalency and "aikispeak" that needlessly clouds so many issues.

If there's a question, Buck should go see and then report on what he saw and what he showed could be done. Period. Ueshiba didn't answer challenges with "thought experiments".

Anyone can post countless posts. Everything is not equivalent. Not all interpretations of Aikido are equally valid. Remind me to tell you a funny story about Saotome blowing his cool one time just because he got tired of the BS "all views are valid" inputs and questions. Only in a fat, dumb, and happy culture would all of this flummery be treated as serious discussion about a martial art. Ueshiba carried a sword, not a keyboard.

Best.

Mike Sigman

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

I clearly laid why I took issue with the post that started this whole thread. You want to validate the experience of aikido devoid of aiki, by all means go ahead. I got a lot out of aikido too.

However, if you want to send that message as well as the other message you sent - that trying to develop aiki in aikido is a "fad", and further that such a fad is off the mark in terms of the "do" --> well, you spoke up on a forum, and you can expect to get a reply or two from the members of that "fad".

I think we just have to accept that whenever Phil posts something, no matter what it is, and no matter how polite we make any discussion, unless we agree with him 100%, he will cast aspersions our way.

I'm ok with that, since I know it going in.

I think this thread would do much better if it was titled something like Fudoshin, or Gambatte, or Nana Korobi Ya Oki, or any number of terms that represents what Phil seems to be trying to say.

But when you pick a term that others are using specifically, you give the impression that you are responding to that topic. You can't really blame others for your own poor word choice.

Best,
Ron (well, you can, but don't expect us to buy it )
ps, Hey Mike, what was that expression you used to use? Stamp your little feet, shake your golden curls, and walk off in a huff? I think that was it...

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 08-11-2009 at 08:14 AM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

I think we just have to accept that whenever Phil posts something, no matter what it is, and no matter how polite we make any discussion, unless we agree with him 100%, he will cast aspersions our way..

He's not alone in that, nor is he alone in appropriating words from the English language (such as "internal strength") and claiming ownership over what they are allowed to mean. It's a bit like the Judean People's Front vs. the People's Front of Judea, you know? Yeah yeah yeah, I know, the internal strength/Judean People's Front crowd will claim that the proof is in the pudding, and that they can show such proof -- but let's not forget that what they're proving is the worth of what they're teaching, not ownership of words and phrases. And, yeah, I take Mike's and Ron's point that there are objective truths that are determined by facts rather than opinions and subjective experience. I just find the verbal tactics on both sides distasteful.

but let's not forget that what they're proving is the worth of what they're teaching, not ownership of words and phrases.

Quite true, and something I definately need to remember.

Quote:

And, yeah, I take Mike's and Ron's point that there are objective truths that are determined by facts rather than opinions and subjective experience. I just find the verbal tactics on both sides distasteful.

Something else I'll try to keep in mind! As I said, the peer review comes after the fact here. I always admire the way Peter Goldsbury phrases things...but then he is smarter (and wiser) than I am...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

It isn't about injecting it with the latest fad martial art or what not to make it better, more effective. That is the very shallowest level of Aikido

and

Quote:

These types of things are always over-looked when someone offers a new "customization, enhancement, or retro fit" to Aikido. It shouldn't be that way, IT shouldn't be over-looked. That is the heart, and soul of Aikido is character, personal change and growth.

From a personal level, I think: Who is Buck to say that these things are being overlooked without first hand experience, and further that the topic at hand was a "fad"? And then to play victim when called on it... I'm not buying it. But I don't want to attack the person, I want to challenge the idea. HOW does anyone with no experience of the thing arrive at that conclusion?

My perspective is that it's like we stopped having much left to debate about regarding if what we are doing is "AIKI", so now we shifted to is what we are doing "DO"? And while I'm not going to say it IS or that "it will be"; why the heck would anyone that does not have any experience with IT- tell me it isn't?

About visiting: There are people I will visit to show them what I am talking about. I think I can trade the information for things they seems willing to share, making it worth my travel. I would love to see a ki society type person deal with IT and get their perspective on how they integrate ki development with aikido practice. I would love to visit William Hazen because he has an integration of aikido against more martial attacks that would be interesting to me. I would love to visit Shaun Ravens because he has insight to misogi exercises that I suspect will be tremendously valuable. However, I don't see myself going to visit Buck simply because he does not believe in IT. Why would I want to do that? If he wants to attend an event about IT, that's up to him.

Honestly, if he were not discussing IT being a "fad" and that those members of the "fad" were overlooking the important aspects of aikido, I would certainly NOT be addressing any of his posts about how wonderful his past aikido experiences have been for him at all.

There is no major conspiracy theory here. If Buck is feeling ganged up on, maybe it is because he spoke up about a topic that a gang of people are interested in - in a way that none of them agree with...

Hey Rob, the funny thing is, the people he seems to be denigrating are all his seniors in martial art and many of them in aikido as well. Yet he feels free to assume that they somehow just never saw the wonderfull things he sees.

But I'm sure this exact same shoe can be put on the exact other foot...

That's why it's best to just leave the personalities out of it. In the long run, it just pays more dividends.

Rob and all ( and you know who you are) calm down, things are really getting out of hand with you guys!

Aren't they? It's like the time I went into a room full of neurologists and tried to tell them that their take on the nervous system is just one way of looking at things. You should have seen them get all uppity! I tried to tell them that the nervous system is all about attitude and that all those silly diagrams of "nerves" and "tissues" and "reflexes" is just one way of looking at things. I mean, I have a nervous system. Mine is just as good as theirs. And they think just because they've studied the accumulated "OPINIONS" of decades of scientific studies, surgeries, CAT scans, X-Rays and all that other stuff the "scientific community" LEANS on (a big fad if you want to know the real truth) that their opinion is better than my knowledge even though I, too have my own nervous system.

They're just weak-minded people who have to have the group to tell them how to think.

Another group just like that, is French speakers. I tell those bunch of elitist hooie-hoos that elan vital can also mean "to read a newspaper" and they just go nuts.

Also mathematicians. I tell them "Pi is exactly 3!" and they just go crazy! They insist that I prove it and I show them how I prove it. It's completely valid, perfect mathematical proof, and they just reject it out of knee-jerk elitism, trying to hold onto their positions in Universities and such. It's just sad.

We need more "open-minded" folks like you to set this world straight, Buck.

Of course, I would advise you not to talk that way about aikiwhen you're actually with someone like Dan Harden or Ark Akuzawa. They might want you to prove what you're saying.

Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote:

I am sorry that I don't feel the same why you do. So what, am I that important for all this effort you are putting into me? You clearly, demonstrate an a insistence to rational and reasonable communication. It is very much like what bullies do...

Exactly. Just like those elitist neurologists and mathematicians. But it's everywhere, really. Take home builders. I told them that "plumb" is not necessarily the same as vertical and that "level" means "level to the eye". I can look at something and see that it's level, but they want to pull out these little floaty-bubble things and say, "See? The bubble goes up! That thing's tilted." And I say, "That's your opinion that it's tilted," but they don't get it.

Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote:

Rob.....from your camp there isn't a vid out there. Mike put one out, I got a good look at what he does without spending $1500.00 for a plane ticket, hotel, rental car, gas, food, PLUS the cost for me to see him do his thing.....

Right! And you can get everything there is to know about O Sensei by watching videos of him, too. Or Shioda. You can clearly see what he does in the videos. Folks that spend money and travel the world to meet those folks are just wasting resources. And then they have to come back with those wacky tales of fantastic powers (please!!! ) just to make people think they didn't waste their money.

By all means, don't sacrifice anything to find out if what someone says is true. You have the videos: just post on the 'net that you understand them and let those elitists go!!!

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-11-2009 at 10:57 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu