LDRiders Mailing List Policies and Procedures

Preface

The following document represents a number of significant changes to the Policies and Procedures under which the LDRider list has been operating. The list has now grown to the point that certain changes need to be implemented to reduce the volume of off-topic posts and reduce the time required for list management. I am also imposing a number of changes that I believe are needed to reduce the hostility that has erupted from time to time. All of the changes were developed with the assistance of a group of list members with whom I reached a consensus. The group advising me included several Iron Butt veterans and other individuals who have been valuable contributors to this list and the long distance riding community. One of the list members supporting these changes is Iron Butt Association President Michael Kneebone, who is personally interested in seeing this list continue to serve as the principal means of communication between long distance riders. Joe Denton owns the list, Tom Austin helps me in attempting to keep the list civil and close to topic. If you receive admin mail from him it holds the same weight as if I had written it.

and follow the directions. Please completely fill in your true name. Your name is not given to the list but will help in the approval process. You will receive a password. Please keep it handy, changes to your subscription are possible with that password. It will be mailed to you each month.

Automatic Unsubscription

The most immediate effect of these changes on many list members will be that you will be automatically unsubscribed when your mailbox fills up and posts from the LDRider list start "bouncing". This has grown to the point where bounces can no longer be tolerated. The list software will automatically unsubscribe you, and you will need to resubscribe.

Enforcement

After reading the following "Policies and Procedures" you will see that we are adding some significant new restrictions on off-topic posts. Most list members will have to modify their posting practices to a certain extent to comply with these requirements. It might not be easy at first, but the group involved in developing the new requirements is convinced that it will be in the long term interests of the list to make these changes. Enforcement policies are also changing. I can't expect members to abide by the policies if they are not enforced so don't be surprised if you get warned or unsubbed for ignoring the new policies. I won't do it publicly and I will allow members to re-subscribe as long as I believe they will try to follow the new policies in the future. Let me know your views.

NOTICE: By subscribing or continuing to subscribe to the LDRider mailing list, you agree to be bound by this document. You may be unsubscribed at any time if, in the opinion of the list owner, or a list administrator designated by the list owner, you have failed to comply with the procedures and policies explained below. DISCLAIMERS:

Mail from this list is the exclusive responsibility of the originators. It is operated by Joe Denton ( who is "the list owner"). He makes and interprets all of the rules. If you don't like the rules or the list owner's interpretation, you are free to leave the list.

To the greatest possible extent permitted by law, the list owner disavows, disclaims and renounces any and all warranty, obligation, liability, or responsibility for any action, failure to act, debt, guilt, sin, or other consequence which may arise from any usage, failure to use, or indirect consequences to subscribers, their employers or employees, agents, heirs or assigns, common carriers, or any other entity which may in any way become involved with or impacted by this mailing list.

You, the subscriber, by subscribing or continuing your subscription, agree that the value of the e-mail discussion you receive from this mailing list is fair and just consideration and compensation for the obligations and limitations imposed on you by this document.

The list owner doesn't promise you that anything at all will happen. The list owner warns you that anything at all MAY happen, and it's all your personal responsibility, not his or anyone else's.

By subscribing or continuing your subscription, you agree to hold the list owner and each and all individual subscribers, their heirs and assigns, employers and employees, agents and all other persons and legal entities harmless from any claim or legal action which may arise from any usage of this mailing list, to the greatest extent permitted by law.

This mailing list is run without consent, permission, or knowledge of the corporations and/or other legal entities which own the computers and Internet connections over which the mailing list operates. These corporations and/or other persons and legal entities share no responsibility or liability.

COPYRIGHT:

The list owner is granted copyright on all messages sent to this mailing list. The original authors of all posts to the list also have copyright for that portion of the post that is their original writing. However, all members of the list agree to allow the reproduction, in whole or in part, of their posts to the list when such reproduction involves a reply to this list or to a member of this list. By subscribing or continuing your subscription, you explicitly agree that you will not re-use these messages outside of this mailing list without permission of at least one of the copyright holders. Requests for reuse should be made to the original author, not the list owner. The list owner may (or may not) approve of reuse in circumstances where the original author is unavailable or refuses a request.

WHAT IS LDRIDER ABOUT?

The LDRider mailing list is primarily for sharing information related to long distance motorcycle riding. Acceptable topics include rally announcements, ride reports, information regarding good places to sleep and eat, motorcycle and motorcycle equipment evaluations. A limited amount of off-topic communication and socializing is permitted but extended off-topic threads are not acceptable. More details regarding the acceptable content of posts is presented below.

The list owner and many list members are also members of the Iron Butt Association (IBA) and IBA President Michael Kneebone is a member of the list. In addition, IBA recommends participation in this list to riders interested in learning more about long distance riding and communicating with other riders. However, membership in the IBA is not required for list membership and LDRiders is operated independent of the IBA.

NOTE: YOU WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY UNSUBSCRIBED IF YOUR MAILBOX FILLS UP AND MESSAGES SENT TO YOU FROM LDRIDER ARE "BOUNCED".

You may also be automatically unsubscribed for violation of the procedures and policies explained in this document. It is likely that you will be warned first, unless you post something that is particularly inappropriate. If you are involuntarily unsubscribed, your ability to resubscribe is at the discretion of the list owner.

HOW DO I SEND A MESSAGE TO EVERYBODY?

Address the message to LDRider@ibdone.org and your message will be distributed to all subscribers.If replying to a mail message use the reply to all feature in your mailer.

WHO CAN SEND MAIL TO THE LDRIDER MAILING LIST?

LDRider is a subscription only mailing list and cross-posts will not normally be forwarded to the list.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I "REPLY" TO SOMETHING LDRIDER SENT ME?

Depends on your mailer. In general, using most mailers' "REPLY" command will send your response to the originator NOT just to the entire mailing list. If you want the reply to go to the list use the reply to all feature in your mailer

TEN POSTING CONVENTIONS TO FOLLOW:

1* Lurk at first. New list members should feel free to introduce themselves when they join the list. Submit a brief summary of your riding experience and tell us where you live, but don't start off by asking a lot of questions and making a lot of comments. Instead, go to the Iron Butt Association web site and start reading. Then start your questions and comments.

2* Don't lurk forever. If you have been on the list for more than six months and haven't posted anything, at least submit a post commenting on what you like or don't like about the list and letting the other list members know that you are still alive.

3* Be polite. Irreverence is fine, vehement disagreement is expected, and the occasional unsupported conclusion is inevitable, but personal attacks on other list members are not appropriate. Remember that e-mail isn't like being there. People can't hear your tone of voice or see your body language - hence the development of the smile :-) and frown :-( conventions. But you also need to think about your writing style and make sure that your message conveys what you want to say clearly and simply, without making it appear that you are more of a jerk or a whiner than you actually are. :)

4* Be tolerant. Also remember the above when READING messages. Not everybody has your superb writing skills, so give them the benefit of the doubt and don't infer emotion or bad intent from somebody's message without reality. Count to ten and reread what you are sending before responding to another post; twice.

5* Be concise. It's true that explanation is often necessary to adequately communicate technical arguments, so hard-and-fast limits on message size are not really practical. However, a point made concisely has more impact than one made with excess verbosity. As Albert Einstein once said:

"Everything should be as simple as possible -- but no simpler."

6* Trim Replies. Trim down the text from the original message so that your reply includes ONLY the minimum quotation necessary to establish context. Habitual users of some PC mailers typically seem to have a particular problem with this, often inserting 2 lines of reply at the top of ~100 lines of quoted material. This is irritating to readers of your message, who end up scanning all that quoted volume looking for new material and not finding any.

7* Identify yourself. It is also considered good form on the Internet to have a "signature" that reasonably identifies you. "CB Handle" style screen names like AOL uses are NOT an example of this. A particularly bad instance is when a new user blurts out a request for information with no signature and only a screen name; no information on location at all. This makes it very difficult to respond to the info request without inflicting the response on all the subscribers of the mailing list.

Many of the people on this list have met each other, and over the course of time have gotten to know each other well enough that they truncated names or started identifying themselves by some funny nickname or legendary feat. Even at that, their address usually provides more complete ID and so this approach can be acceptable. But to start up on the list with nothing but a cryptic ID puts some people off.

You should remember also that many people are reluctant to respond when a post comes only with an anonymous ID with no name and little address info.

8* Label each post with a specific subject line. If the subject is BMW lowering the price on 3-spoke wheels, then use a subject line like "BMW lowers price on 3-spoke wheels" rather than "BMW lowers prices" or "Check this out".

9* Change the subject line of a post whenever you change or supplement the subject. If you respond to a post about "The best tires for the Honda ST1100" and add information about tires for a BMW K1100LT, then change the subject line to something like "Tires for ST1100 and K1100LT". The only information you are posting is about tires for a BMW, then use a whole new subject line.

10* Ride. The best way to learn about and enjoy long distance motorcycling is from the saddle, not a computer.

TEN THINGS TO AVOID SENDING TO LDRIDER:

1* Do Not use of profanity. Since the origination of the LDRider list, the size and diversity of the membership has grown substantially and many members object to the use of profanity. Reserve any profanity for private posts and keep it off the list.

2* Do Not use the list for commercial purposes. If you want to sell motorcycle-related items you personally own, you may post descriptions and prices to the list. Don't repeat the post and don't respond to such a post with a message to the whole list. This includes SPAM if it happens to get through to the list.

Participation of a purely commercial nature is NOT welcome here, EVEN IF it's motorcycle-specific. However, if you join in our chatter, attend our events, and generally behave like you're one of the group, and you ALSO have a business which lets you answer questions, respond to wanted-to-buy ads, etc. with commercial information related to your business, then that's OK. It's also OK for such individuals to post information regarding new products that they believe will be of general interest to the long distance riding community.

3* Minimize off-topic postings. If you are a long time list member and have gotten to know numerous other members, either electronically or in person, it is acceptable for you to send messages to the list regarding significant issues affecting you personally (such as, a recent marriage, death in the family, career move, etc.). However, all such posts should be labeled "OFF TOPIC" and responses to such posts should be to the originator and NOT to the whole list. If the off-topic issue likely to result in a series of posts over time, subsequent posts on the same topic should be sent privately to those members of the list that have expressed an interest and NOT sent to the entire list.

Posting of jokes is acceptable provided they are motorcycle related and posted with a subject line beginning with "JOKE". As with other off-topic material, responses to jokes should be to the originator and not the entire list. The prohibition on labeling of jokes is waived for all posts originating on April 1 of each year.

4* Avoid certain subjects altogether. Posts related to religion, politics, gun control, abortion, impressionistic painting, or other subjects unrelated to long-distance motorcycling are taboo on this list. Although many list members have strong opinions on such subjects, this list is not the place to talk about them unless the discussion also pertains specifically to Long Distance Riding. A rare example is the legality of carrying a weapon on a motorcycle over state or country borders. Viruses and rumors of such can be sent to the list owner (Joe Denton) but NEVER to the list itself.

5* Avoid changing the subject. In responding to a post about batteries, don't start talking about tires. Keep on the subject of the original post or start over with a fresh subject line.

6* Don't just say "me too". If the only information communicated with a reply to a post is that you agree with what the author had to say, it may be appropriate to respond privately, not to the entire list. However, posts to the list expressing agreement with another member's opinion are acceptable when there is obvious disagreement among list members.

7* Don't excessively trim the original post you are replying to. Leave some of the original text from each post you respond to. Although the text of a message you are responding to should seldom be repeated in its entirety, leave enough of the original text in your reply to provide context for readers of your reply who may not have seen the original post.

8* Avoid flame wars. If you feel a need to publicly disagree with someone else's post, do so politely. State why you disagree without adding insulting, personal attacks.

9* Avoid the use of HTML. Hypertext Markup Language (HTML) is the standard language for web page construction and it is the default setting for the popular Microsoft Outlook Express e-mail program. Don't use it. If you are an Outlook Express user, change to "plain text". Using HTML creates a mess to the list and may get you unsubscribed. To switch to plain text in Outlook Express, use "Tools", "Options", "Send" and click on "Plain Text".

10* Avoid the use of attachments. Do not attach files to your posts unless they are going to individual list members who have asked for them or who you are reasonably sure would want them.

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Joe DentonThanks to Carl Paukstis, Sam Lepore, Tom Austin, Brian Curry and others who may or may not know they helped with this

A note from a list member on why number 7 is important

Hello LDR List.

One of the critical skills in rally planning on-the-clock is being able to take a large amount of information and hone in on what is important, and what is not.Many rallymasters enjoy filling a rally pack with irrelevant information, sucker bonuses, nuggets of fabulous points in unexpected out-of-order places, and similar clever strategies. It is a puzzle or multiple puzzles, and from where I sit, 'solving' it is one of the great pleasures of LD riding. This separating the wheat from the chaff is not an objective process , every rider differs in his or her abilities, interests, experience level, so what is right for one rider may be all wrong for another rider.

Similarly, on the LD Rider list, it is necessary to review the posts and determine what is useful and worthwhile to you, and what is perhaps useful to others but unneccessary for you, and what is just rubbish, not worthy of one's attention. I ask that the list indulge me with my personal rubbish criteria, consider it, and consider contributing to list rubbish reduction.

The list Policies and Procedures (item 7 in 'Ten Posting Conventions to Follow' ) note the importance of using your real name. http://www.ldriders.com/the-list.html(At this point of rubbish abundance, we would all, and I include myself, do ourselves and our colleagues, and of course Joe and Tom, a good turn if we were to review and follow this entire P and P)

Many long-time list members who at one time posted more complete information about themselves , have taken these days to first name only, perhaps out of a feeling of familiarity. Most new people are going with first name only. This brevity is not helpful to either.

If your name is John, Paul, George, or any one of the other hundreds of very common names in the English language, first name alone does not identify to me who you are and allow me to make the discernment as to the value of your contribution possible. If your name is Ringo, or of similar rarity, you can identify with single name, as long as you are pretty certain the only one with that name on the list. Although my surname can be found in my reply email, I usually post with my first name only , as it is a clear enough identifier of who I am because of its relative rarity. Although some of these 'common first name only' posts are sincere efforts, I relegate most of them to the rubbish pile because I cannot determine who it is doing the posting. Are you a serious LD rider or one who aspires to be? Or is your participation on the list some misguided therapy effort at your institution for the criminally insane? I just don't know. I value all contributions that are clearly identified as to their source, and on-topic, regardless of whether or not I have personally met the poster or whether or not the person is new to the list or has been here since the dawn of time. Which was 1996, but you all knew that because you just reviewed the list P and P, right ?

The single common name without any other identifier is frustrating, but the single letter signature is something else. I try to be open minded, I really do. The single letter appellation , long favored by pornographers, is, as I understand things I have no experience with, common in this sexting business. I wonder of these posters have been doing so much of this that they have forgotten how to correspond with those whom they do not wish to engage in sexual intercourse. I do not wish to think too deeply about such matters, I fear reading these posts for what they might contain. These posts are dispatched with crisp alacrity to the rubbish bin.

The most curious divergence from list P and P is the license plate poster- the ones who deliver posts signed with an incomprehensible combinations of letters, numbers, and perhaps punctuation marks. Are these posters making license plates in the aforementioned institution and have such an unrestrained joy in their work that they seek to share it with others? I would usually commend such enthusiasm, but in this case, if I can't possibly pronounce it, it's pure rubbish to me.

Location, though not demanded in the list P and P, is invaluable on this list. Why?

1. Just posting the name of where you are located allows us all to dream for a second of going there.

2. For new people it allows other local riders to connect with you off list and perhaps invite you to a local private lunch meeting or ride of like-minded riders. I know we here in Vancouver , under the direction of our social secretary, Bill Watt, we are quick to connect with any unsuspecting local newbie who pops up on the list.

3. Your location allows us to gauge what you bring to the subject with respect to local conditions. If you want to cross the city of Chicago, and are seeking assistance from the list, are you going to listen to me? Although I live in a different country, I have ridden in Chicago. As I recall, while engaged in this activity, I have often lost the will to live. Or are you going to listen to David E.B. Smith, who always notes in his posts his location IS Chicago? I am sure you can separate the wheat and the chaff in this little example. (David's signature used on this list is an example of perfection- all the information you could want, and no excess)

4. This is the LONG DISTANCE RIDER list. Celebrating the distance between us and the narrowing of it to nothing is why we are here. Failing to disclose your location is failing to engage with our very purpose. Who among us does not love maps? When you tell us who and where you are , we place your little star on our mental map. When you do not, you are nobody, nowhere, and my brain cannot imagine you are somebody, somewhere. I implore you all to be the stars shining on my map.

I believe I joined this list in early 2000. The people I have met directly or indirectly through this list have enriched my life immeasurably. This year already I have had the pleasure of meeting several new LD riders at the two events I have attended so far. First they were names on the list, now they are real, complex, fascinating people. I am not giving up on the list just because of rubbish posts, of whatever stripe, but I am asking that posters consider carefully the value that they add by the simple act of sharing your unique identity and your location.