he's been terribly mishandled, turning out to be nothing but a rash, insolent blowhard who has learned nothing from the past - neither his own, nor the Orcs in general."

isnt that pretty normal for Hellscream standards?

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 12:29 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Immitis

this is no mere game my kind sir... THIS! IS! WARCRAFT!!!!!!! ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

yeah...WoW is more like a hobby to me than just a game

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 12:31 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Flaks

Very good point. Most characters developed in WoW have very choppy story telling with little to no coherency to how they came to where they are and where they're from. I think the ONLY exception to this is Anduin.

well Warcraft has an enormous wealth of characters, Blizz cant be doing something with everyone every patch - unless we are content with waiting years instead of months

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

I won't need anyone else to turn you into Kek Cupcakes Keksplace as I am known as The Ultimate Life Form or the Super Shadow. I will come inside Orgrimmar and Chaos Blast it to the ground and then the other 49 raiders from the Alliance and the Horde can finish the remains. Now on to a more serious matter. If you really like Garrosh so much just please ask Blizzard to make a mechanic for you fanboys to defend him from all us raiders instead of whining every day in the forums cause all this thing starts to becoming tiring.

At the start of the raid you choose side and then you play your side of the raid and everyone is happy in the end.

To me it's a matter of general leadership skills versus wartime leadership skills. As a wartime leader, Garrosh is great. He may be rash, arrogant, volatile and directly stupid at times, but he knows what needs to be done and is not afraid to do it or use other people to do so. The end justifies teh means in his Horde... which is a dark path to head down.
As a general leader of this grand alliance of races and cultures, Garrosh fails. His diplomatic skills are terrible and he simply isn't intelligent enough to work out the problems of the Horde - and seing as he's very bad at taking advice (EX: Conversation with Saurfang the Elder in Garrosh Hold in Borean Tundra), i doubt he will be able to "lead" the Horde singlehandedly. Also consider that he is diminishing (destroying?) the alliances Thrall worked very hard to get and keep with the trolls and tauren.

Bottom line: IMO Garrosh will do for now, but we need someone smarter and more diplomatic eventually - Vol'jin is my main candidate (I am biast on that however... love my trolls ;D)

Well the quote actually raises the question of whether a noble final act can redeem all the evil in one's life, and the answer given is 'no, it doesn't.' Not sure I 100% agree with this perspective, but it adds an interesting topic to characters like Grom and Darth Vader. Does that final act of sacrifice really redeem them?

The book is The Black Prism, first in Brent Week's Lightbringer trilogy. But I've only just started reading it, and I'm sore other books have raised that question long before this one.

Well what does redemption really mean then. I see it as, someone has done something he regrets and wants to make up for. Grom enslaved himself and his people, saw that he made a mistake and then went on to free himself and his people, making up for his own mistake. I would certainly say he redeemed himself.

Guys you consider him what you want.
I for one would want something like this, in order to get inside the ORG Raid you must pass through a RBG or BG, in the very city city of Orgrimmar against the elites of Garrosh.
Players can choose sides, you rebels can go ahead and betray the Horde and ally yourself with Alliance against us the true Horde players. If you win you can go ahead and enter the ORG Raid.
If Garrosh followers, the elite of Horde, the true Horde players win, we should have a raid where we crush both Varian and the leader of the rebels (probabaly Vol'jin) also in ORG (so blizzard wont work too much).

And after the end of an expansion i would like to see a statistic about these BGs. Im sure the Garrosh side would dominate.
Because guys like Trassk can strugle how much they want they wont beat anything.
Go roll alliance Trassk!

And if you ask me, if the story would go after that statistic, i dont know if youd want a Garrosh raid anymore Trassk because your hero Vol'jin would die... along with Varian.

Guys you consider him what you want.
I for one would want something like this, in order to get inside the ORG Raid you must pass through a RBG or BG, in the very city city of Orgrimmar against the elites of Garrosh.
Players can choose sides, you rebels can go ahead and betray the Horde and ally yourself with Alliance against us the true Horde players. If you win you can go ahead and enter the ORG Raid.
If Garrosh followers, the elite of Horde, the true Horde players win, we should have a raid where we crush both Varian and the leader of the rebels (probabaly Vol'jin) also in ORG (so blizzard wont work too much).

And after the end of an expansion i would like to see a statistic about these BGs. Im sure the Garrosh side would dominate.
Because guys like Trassk can strugle how much they want they wont beat anything.
Go roll alliance Trassk!

And if you ask me, if the story would go after that statistic, i dont know if youd want a Garrosh raid anymore Trassk because your hero Vol'jin would die... along with Varian.

Actually I really wanted Blizzard to do that so all those fanatic fans like keksplace can finally stop whining all the time about how awesome Garrosh is. I mean what better proof do you want. Make it like this and let's see how many will want to kill him and how many will want to protect him.

Technically only 5% will be those that will defend him but just let them dream a little more before they return to reality.

Guys you consider him what you want.
I for one would want something like this, in order to get inside the ORG Raid you must pass through a RBG or BG, in the very city city of Orgrimmar against the elites of Garrosh.Players can choose sides, you rebels can go ahead and betray the Horde and ally yourself with Alliance against us the true Horde players. If you win you can go ahead and enter the ORG Raid.
If Garrosh followers, the elite of Horde, the true Horde players win, we should have a raid where we crush both Varian and the leader of the rebels (probabaly Vol'jin) also in ORG (so blizzard wont work too much).

And after the end of an expansion i would like to see a statistic about these BGs. Im sure the Garrosh side would dominate.
Because guys like Trassk can strugle how much they want they wont beat anything.
Go roll alliance Trassk!

And if you ask me, if the story would go after that statistic, i dont know if youd want a Garrosh raid anymore Trassk because your hero Vol'jin would die... along with Varian.

oh my word you are delusional...

You have such a one sided view on what the horde is, that you fail to even see how its currently falling apart under a corrupt leader.

heres gheghis khans legacy and im sure he wouldnt give a shit about what western civilisation has to say about him as long as he is remembered fondly by his people

Pfffff... Right now Turkmenistan is full of its leader's statues, including SEVERAL golden ones. And according to their press-agencies entire population worships him. North Korea is pretty much the same. That must mean they are set up for glorious future and their leader is perfect, right? So Horde is okay going the same way, right?

General population most fondly remember leaders that makes radical decisions themselves, freeing said population from burden of having to actually think with their own heads. No matter if those decisions were good or bad.

Hey! I've just scrolled a few posts down and here's a perfect example of what I just said! See, even Hitler is admired by some.

Originally Posted by Hardstyler01

Hitler cared about his people. Maybe you don't like to admit it, but he did. Also, aside from this discussion I do think that Hitler would've made for a better world than the current US empire.

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 07:45 PM ----------

Originally Posted by keksplace

Guys i can see the Horde is broken in two, and im tired of all these peace hippies that think we desrve to stand in a desert because we agressed the alliance first.

Go settle in Un'Goro or near Taurens in Mulgore? Is there an Alliance army personally chaining every Orgrimmar citizen to it or what? Or is it "We hate place that Thrall selected. Terraform it for us or die?"

I didn't vote because all of the options are black and white, it's exactly what Garrosh isn't I like him as a character, he's a shit leader in the grand sheme of things but despite Blizzard's serial raping on the poor guys story they've settled on "this guys is a twat, but one who controls considerable power and doesn't care about the consequences" it suits him. He's proven The Horde have got some balls and a bit of their Doomhammer Horde teeth back. But he does need to be replaced, he'll run the fucking thing into the ground with his bloodlust and he's pissing off some powerful people within his own ranks.

---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 08:27 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Trassk

oh my word you are delusional...

You have such a one sided view on what the horde is, that you fail to even see how its currently falling apart under a corrupt leader.

I for one love the Garrosh loyalist point of view, wouldn't it be awesome to go in a raid knowing you loose and adding an extra dimension to a raid like that would be sweet. But it just wont happen for a thousand reasons... still I like it.

There's basically two Garroshes. There's the one before MoP, and there's the MoP one. I liked pre-MoP Garrosh well enough. He was an orc's orc. He was going places. Somewhere between Cata and MoP though, he got struck in the head by a falling bowling ball and became Bad Garrosh. It's pretty darn difficult to like Bad Garrosh, and I'm not up to the task.

I liked him at first, then he turned in to a hypocrite/tyrant/psychopath. I preferred thrall's horde, a kind of society where outcast races could find unity and strength, rather than act as a conquering war machine.