Monday, October 29, 2012

Shame and the single man

So now that so many men don’t get married, the society will spend
it’s time trying to shame them and discriminate to keep those guys in
line. I imagine this will backfire. I was talking to a shoe salesman in
his thirties the other day where I am visiting in Santa Monica and he
asked me about my work and I told him about my forthcoming book.
Without any prompting, he said, “I don’t want to get married.” When I
asked “Why?” he said, “The risk is too great and there is no benefit.
Even if you get a pre-nup, it doesn’t work. There is no incentive to
me.” Apparently, he is smart to stay single according to one of the
commenters at the article I mentioned who had this to say about marriage:

Was single, had ample money and plenty of very open
minded young ladies to spend my time with. Was having the time of my
life, met a wonderful woman then got married and we had a couple of
kids. Now I’m in a perpetual state of worry financially, rarely see my
nearest/dearests for fun, and get a bj on Christmas and my birthday.
Stay single boys, keep living the dream!!!!!!!

So just maybe there are rational reasons other than weirdness and
“fussiness” that keep men from tying the knot. But then, that would mean
a columnist like the one writing the piece mentioned would have to
understand more about where men are coming from and less about how she
and society want men to fall in line with what women and society expect.

She is correct to be dubious because what we're seeing here are examples of both marginal utility and female solipsism. The solipsism can be seen in how women frequently attempt to direct shaming tactics towards men because they find shaming tactics to be so effective with women and cannot imagine that men would respond differently. The marginal utility of the tactic can be seen in how American men have, over the last 40 years, become increasingly indifferent, indeed, in some cases even openly hostile, to female demands and female expectations of them.

The problems Western societies in general, and American society in particular, are already beginning to face were no less predictable than the problems facing Chinese and Indian societies as a result of their massive slaughter of the unborn female population. These problems are significantly different, of course. Contra the feminist assumptions, (and by now it should be no surprise to observe that events have proven them to be wrong yet again), just as the slaughter of girls has raised the relative MMV of the surviving women in Chinese and Indian society by reducing their supply, the legal degradation and economic deterioration of men has raised the relative MMV of the smaller number of men still deemed marriageable by women.

It is simple economic supply and demand at work, on both sides. The female demand for more education and financial success increases, thus raising the price of the desirable men. However, the male demand for women has significantly declined due to the increased legal risks and increasing age of women at first marriage, among other things, further reducing their supply. Anyone who has taken Econ 101 should be able to correctly calculate what the interaction of the moving supply and demand curves necessarily implies: women will find it harder and harder to find desirable men willing to marry them. In September, I pointed out that already, the math dictates "only one-third of women in college today can reasonably expect to marry a man who is as well-educated as they are." And that ratio is only going to continue falling as time goes on, barring massive social, economic, or political changes.

This change in marriage-related demographics is not the only, nor the primary, reason the West is in decline. But it is most definitely a powerful factor in speeding up the process of decline and fall... and trying to shame single men responding rationally to the changes in society into modifying their behavior is simply not a credible solution.

Shame works on women (or at least used to), because women live more in the herd. Pressure to conform to the herd is strong.

Shame doesn't work on men. Influencing male behavior requires tangible incentives. Men realize the incentives to marry aren't outweighing the risks. No amount of shaming will influence a man to marry if he thinks the incentives aren't there.

@ Josh: It's not misogynistic if it's phrased the right way. Women are certainly more inclined to own those reasons for spinsterhood than "too damn old." So, instead of slut, lesbian, workaholic, or impossibly high standards, you say:

Interesting you mention the "surplus male" problem in China and India in the very same breath as Dr. Helen's "Men on Strike." I suspect there is more in common with the two situations than meets the eyes.

In an excellent book called "Bare Branches: The Security Implications of Asia's Surplus Male Population" the authors, Hudson and den Boer retrace societies that have historically had a surplus of males just as in India and China today. It's not a pretty outcome.

What's consistently happened over history is that once a society reaches a threshold of disenfranchised males--that is, males who have no genetic stake in maintaining a calm social order; males with no genetic investment in the future--all hell tends to break loose. There are more civil wars or revolutions, more cross-border wars, more social and economic instability. The data are pretty consistent on this over time.

Now consider that whether by raw demographics (as in India and China) or by social disincentives (such as the motives behind a "marriage strike")... the immediate symptom is the same: a surpose of disenfranchised males; males with little prospect of a stable, rewarding marriage; males who realize it's unlikely they'll have a stable family.

One can try shaming them, putting these males to work in a more robust economy, or drafting them into the military and killing them off... but all that's only going to postpone the inevitable: social instability. Shaming simply doesn't address the cause.

It's all very sad. The sexual dystopia is all going on under our very noses--and most are unable to label it as such, let alone reverse it.

Exactly. Except change the last bit to "men are intimidated by her education/intelligence/empowerment" and add in "here are no good men" to take the focus from the women and put back on those evil slacker men.

It's not so much that men can't be shamed -- a man certainly can feel shame when he's done something shameful. But by the time a man has decided against marriage, he's attained a deep enough understanding of the forces involved here to recognize attempts to shame him for what they are. He already knows there's nothing shameful about refusing to marry the kind of woman who's finding herself alone because he's going his own way.

Now, if he's taking a pass on marriage because he's too busy banging college girls, you might be able to shame him about that. But even if you can get him to quit fornicating, that doesn't mean he'll instead marry someone who was banging guys like him 10-15 years ago and has decided she's ready to settle down and let someone else pay the bills.

It's not just women who try to shame men into marriage. Other men do it as well. I've been with my girlfriend for over a year, and she lives with me. We are perfectly content. I told her long ago that I will never marry her. But the men at work, both the married and unmarried ones, are always telling me that I "need to" , "should" , or "have to" get married. Even the ones who are consistently complaining about their wives and their home life. I suppose misery loves company. Maybe it's because I work in a male dominated field, but I get a lot more shaming language from other men than from women. I wonder why this is?

Men can be shamed, but there's an important catch. Most women can't shame men by themselves. All they can do is remind men of the shame they will get from other respected men if they continue whatever behavior the woman is trying to shame them for.

Well, our society doesn't have all that many respected men any more, and the few that there are don't particularly buy into the feminist line.

Other men do it as well. I've been with my girlfriend for over a year, and she lives with me. We are perfectly content. I told her long ago that I will never marry her.

There's little point in trying to shame you, since you're presumably aware of what you're doing and how you're benefiting from this arrangement. But I can practically guarantee you that your girlfriend believes the end result of your shack-up situation is marriage, despite what you've told her. When you two inevitably break up, her chances of marrying well will be materially damaged, and it's 100% her fault. Your girlfriend is very foolish, and I think Dr. Laura is right to shame such women by calling them unpaid whores. Feminism has made women so unbelievably stupid.

Men can certainly be shamed, but only when the people doing the shaming are people in whose eyes the man wants some standing. Women used to have a presumptive ability to confer approval on men, and older men had the same for younger men.

But it all requires a sort of cognitive illusion, a sense that your honor is important vis a vis society. When that illusion is pierced, the man is done entirely with the honor gambit, and the shaming is totally ineffective.

It's like a guy who has finally decided he's done with his wife's nagging, and stops reacting entirely to her shit.

Men who have decided against marriage, or who don't care what random men and women think of him, have lost the illusion. Let's not overrate Helen's anecdata...plenty of men are still susceptible to the wagging finger.

"But the men at work, both the married and unmarried ones, are always telling me that I "need to" , "should" , or "have to" get married. Even the ones who are consistently complaining about their wives and their home life."

My best friend has been living with his GF for years, no plans to get married, and says he's always getting the same shit from unhappily married people at work.

"Feminism has made women so unbelievably stupid."

Maybe it's just revealed the capacity for rationalization and cognitive dissonance that makes any non-politican male blush with humility. Old-school society seem to have as one of its values not allowing women to believe their own bullshit. Witness hoe effectively women respond to Athol's C-FO model, having a competent Captain to tell her to calm down and quit worrying.

I'm not opposed to all of the changes and progress of the last 40 years, but it does seem to be the case that women are becoming increasingly less skilled at making sense of all the personal, professional and lifestyle choices they are faced with. This is undoubtedly linked to the dismantelement of elder guidance and structure in society, even in the upper classes.

The surfeit of choices should be a positive, but it seems to just fill women with false hopes of "having it all" and resentment that they can't, and a sense of eternal dissatisfaction and opportunity-hopping.

I'll say it again because I like the line: traditional societies not allowing women to believe their own bullshit.

Prenups as marriage insurance are a red herring. Generally speaking, courts don't allow people to write their own contracts that differ significantly from what would be standard practice (i.e. certain waivers are not upheld in court). The family court system entitles women to certain things when she decides she's done with her man, and no piece of paper is going to cheat her out of it if the court has anything to say about it.

The final point I want to make is that Vox's reasons for marriage are all well and good, and I haven't ruled out marriage, but I hear from SO many married men "don't get married" or "stay single as long as you can." This from men who love their wives and kids, but can't recommend the same sacrifice if they had it to do over again.

Reminds me of anyone in the Marines I've ever talked to: "uh, oh yeah, the Corps has been great for me, but I don't recommend it to anybody else."

That article referenced Dr. H. is fascinating...fascinating in a WTF? sort of way.

Consider the title and sub-title of the article--

The Stigma Of The Never-Married Man: He used to be envied. Now the perpetual bachelor is a social pariah.

The never married man used to be envied? I'm 46 and grew up in a fairly conservative environment, so I have some recollection of the residue of a pre-feminist era. I honestly don't recall the 'never-married man' being envied. In fact, I don't recall hearing the suggestion, from anyone, that a man shouldn't get married in the '80's or '90's. Getting married was what a man did, period.

And the never married man is now a pariah? From the article, Travis' friend Toni says that Travis "...has no problem picking up the best-looking girl in the room."

WTF? Seriously, if someone is going to write an article about how much of a loser never married men are, they'd do better to leave out examples of guys who have no problem picking up the hotties.

Badger brings up a good point, too. Miss 1962 had better judgement than Miss 1987, and FAR better judgement than Miss 2012.

Miss 1962 was looking for a steady, reliable man with good prospects and solid husband/father potential. And understood that while domestic drama might be entertaining on TV, it wasn't a good idea in real life. Her granddaughter, Miss 2012, wants her bad boy sperm donor and a generous helping of domestic drama.

I'll say one thing...watch the taxes. Once single men get organized to force our taxes down to the rate of people with kids, the whole edifice will crack.

Maybe it's just revealed the capacity for rationalization and cognitive dissonance that makes any non-politican male blush with humility.

Probably. But there's some hint that women knew better several decades ago. As Lauren Bacall's character observed in How to Marry a Millionaire, "If you don't marry him, you haven't caught him, he's caught you." So maybe they weren't any more logical back then, but they were certainly wiser.

I think even women today "know" better. They are just less inclined to care once their desired benefits become a legal entitlement.

Before marriage, women keep dependable men around by being nice and putting out. After marriage, shaming becomes the tactic since his duties are now a legal right to be demanded rather than a gift to be appreciated.

Most married men have memories of minding their own business watching sports, looking in the fridge for a drink, or taking a shower, and unexpectedly getting absolutley pounced by their wives for spontaneous sex or bjs or both. Men would absolutely do anything for their wives at.this point. However as most husbands have guessed by now, these memories of their wide are from before marriage. "Why should I be a sex kitten just to get him to do what he is supposed to do?"

Gratitude turned to shame is no way to improve marriage, but it is what the family courts are largely responsible for.

"Why should I be a sex kitten just to get him to do what he is supposed to do?"

If a guy has to trade chores for sex, he's doing it wrong. Surprise, women have sex drives too, but the guy has to do something to spark it. Athol over at MMSL is trying to make a career out of 'splaining how that works.

I agree men do it wrong. But women also fail to see how they set it up that way. They use sex as incentive pre-marriage which understandably leads a man to draw incorrect conclusions about the woman's true sexuality.

"Miss 1962 was looking for a steady, reliable man with good prospects and solid husband/father potential."

And to the extent that her tingles encouraged her to forget that, she had her mother, grandmothers, neighbors, church, and the rest of society reminding her. Heck, back then even movie shorts and advertisements warned people against bad boys/girls and taught them what kind of person makes a good spouse. We went from a society almost unanimously encouraging virtue to one almost unanimously encouraging vice, in half a century.

If a guy has to trade chores for sex, he's doing it wrong. Surprise, women have sex drives too, but the guy has to do something to spark it

Actually, it's not about sparking her sex drive so much as tapping her insecurity. Ignore her sexually for just a little while, pretend (if you need to) that you aren't interested or don't care and yeah, her hamster will rev her up.

Actually, it's not about sparking her sex drive so much as tapping her insecurity.

You seem to be implying those are two different things...

Anywho, after perusing Dr. Helen's blog, I'm convinced certain men should not be allowed to marry. Deltas and Gammas mostly (Omegas sort of take care of themselves that way). Reading the bitter, unmanly snivelling on her blog from guys who screwed up their marriages and blame it all on everyone else just disgusts me.

I'm perfectly sympathetic to a guy who wants to complain that modern society is out to screw him, and I'll commisserate with him over the horrible things women are capable of doing. But if he refuses to see his own role in the fiasco and wants to claim any man who gets married is a fool, well, he can cry in his beer alone.

The pitiful types over there who think because they failed at something then no one else could possible succeed... bah. Well, I guess there's a reason Mother Nature made 60% of men expendable.

51 year old female here. Marriage was never a goal for me - been in a 20 year relationship with my boyfriend with no plans to marry.

I grew up during the 70's when young women were encouraged to think twice about getting married as it would be "stifling". I see this as the pendulum swinging the other way: women are in the driver's seat now due to the law discriminating against men - so men are rightly thinking twice about getting married - also because it is seen to be "stifling".

Part of the issue is that the shaming technique is especially useless for the alpha type man that most women want to marry.

The ones it will work on are the steady deltas who WANT to settle down and get married. Who are willing to take a carousel rider, if she still has a bit of her original attractiveness left over.

The problem is that the word is finally trickling down to the deltas that the ideal situation which has been sold to them their whole lives, is actually a pig in a poke. Or poking a pig, or being poked by the pigs at the instigation of an angry soon-to-be ex-wife.

@Spacebunny said... "Actually, it's not about sparking her sex drive so much as tapping her insecurity. Ignore her sexually for just a little while, pretend (if you need to) that you aren't interested or don't care and yeah, her hamster will rev her up."_____________

That may well explain why so many women are sexual dynamos before marriage and an ice queens after (at least in regards to their husbands). Before the marriage, an uninterested man can walk out easy, after it is much more difficult, so the "fear of him not being interested" is in a way built in.

"Mike M. said...... I'll say one thing...watch the taxes. Once single men get organized to force our taxes down to the rate of people with kids, the whole edifice will crack."

Single men forcing anything with respect to government policy is a laughable prospect. What will happen is already happening, single men refusing to get on the high pay career bandwagon. They are working only as much as they must. They are opting out of the system. No voting, no jury duty, no military service, no car registration, no showing up in government or corporate databases, more and more are going to go ghost.

What I expect to see in the future is more of the productive economy going underground, outside of the tax regime, with cash only or barter. Which will lead to the same outcome you're talking about.

Dr. Tara is a rare woman that is able to empathize with what men have to deal with. Most look at how men get screwed and see only how they can benefit. Dr. T actually thinks about how it must feel to be in their shoes.

I first married when I was 39 and have since had two daughters. Yes, it's difficult and not as much "fun". The love I receive from my girls and wife, more than makes up for the "excitement" of meeting and bedding strangers.

I took a long term vision. Did I want to grow old in bars, seeking out companionship from older and older and more bitter and more bitter women? No.

I made the right choice. I'm far happier now than I would be had a I remained single.

I'm a successful good looking man of 40 who has been married for 5 years, and I enjoy being married. Yes I have less disposable money than I did before I got married, but our overall income and standard of living is higher. My secret to happiness - no children. I think marriage is great if you chose the right partner (I was so done with dating by 35), but what ruins it and causes all the stress is kids. People love their children, but there is strong biology at work. All the parents I know my age are miserable and have no lives of their own.

One of my dad's friends abandoned his wife and child in the early sixties- back then the working class neighborhood shunned him like it was Amish.

Now shame is gone- you can get a GF pregnant and send her a check- while your married friend has the same or less sex than you- and gets nagged 24/7. Note that women nagging men is never described as emotional abuse.

Marriage has its benefits- some of my friends wives are great- but many aren't- and living with them seems like Hitler's punishment in Hell.

Love springs eternal as the grass, and the companionship of two souls united faithfully in marriage with the joy of children is the one true happiness. Men and women who don't marry and hold their baby have not fulfilled their human destiny. God is love; love is God; and our purpose in life is to spread God's love by inviting Him into our lives. I am 72 years old, married first and only for 35, and I know.

As a 55 y/o, heterosexual male (and Veteran sergeant of Marines), if I had it all to do over again, knowing what I do now? Marraige would be out of the question. Indeed, any relationship with a woman would not only be unwise, it would be...irrational.

You cannot shame a man that is not in society. I was such a single man who didn't date for the simple reason that it is hard to get dates. Men are having a hard time of finding eligible women who are ineligible according to criteria that both men and women set. Men want a good wife and mother of his children. Women want a man to fulfill her and none of the wife/mother obligations. The divide continues.

I would not worry about the shaming. It is such a low incentive to marriage that I wonder why shaming is even bothered. If we can't shame women into not giving up their virginity, then why should shaming men into marrying a good idea?

I'm happily divorced with no kids. Would never marry again (OK, never say never, but...). Now basically, "as retired as I want to be" and loving it. Spend NO time or money on females anymore. Haven't even had a GF in the fifteen years since I divorced my ex. I tell folks that I never met the right girl, but I met all the wrong ones, however, I don't think there ARE any right ones anymore. Yeah, I'm hard-boiled cynical now. It's the only logical approach to life.

I have a Ferrari instead of a family, and I get more love from the car than I ever got from my ex. Yeah, I can afford to support a family without making a wife work... but I refuse to. There's no benefit in it for men anymore. Time was - in our not-so-distant agrarian past (My mom was raised on a farm) - a family was an asset for a man. Now, a family is a nightmarish multi-dimensional liability.

Before I met my Philippine-born wife I never thought I would get married. Women who grow up in modern American society tend to acquire all sorts of ridiculous expectations for their mate, anti-male attitudes, and emotional issues that just make them impossible to live with long-term.

Probably I'm overgeneralizing a bit, but I really think our phallophobic society has created a real disincentive for men to engage in long-term relationships.

In a nutshell, women demanded to be taken seriously by men but without becoming as rational as men. When you can just laugh their occasional oddities off, women are wonderful to have around. When their emotions become THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IN YOUR LIFE AND OMG YOU CANNOT HAVE A MOMENT'S PEACE IF SHE'S NOT HAPPY then men will quickly tire of the emotional blackmail and move on to someone new.

Why should a single man saddle himself with a harpie? He gets "it" without paying, now she supplies the condoms. Why get stuck with only one harpie? He has no say if she wants to kill his baby, but has to cough up to support the baby if she decides to keep it. She can even keep him from seeing the baby he supports.

I should add I am very happily married for four of the best years of my life to one of the smartest, prettiest, most devoted woman you'll ever meet (who herself also makes very good money). I have had around a dozen or so girlfriends, and so I know I am very, very lucky.

Shame doesn't work anymore. Our leaders do not feel shame and so the common people have learnt to not feel shame. Treasury Secretary Geithner feels no shame. Attorney General Holder is not ashamed of his behavior. Jon Corzine feels no shame. President Obama and President Clinton could not be shamed into doing anything the don't want to do. Celebrities feel no shame. Famous Athletes feel no shame. So common men can ignore shame.

So the men decide not to have any children. But ALL support late in life comes from children - somebody will have to pay that social security and medicare; and if you raise them properly,your children will personally tend to your needs and support you.

So if they don't marry, and avoid having children, who will support these people? My children? The children my wife and I sacrificed to raise? The gentlemen above bragging about his Ferrari should not be entitled to look to my children for support. I could have bought a parking lot of Ferraris for what I have spent on my children. So fair warning, I'm educating my children to think of other countries to live in and abandon the US - don't assume that my children will be around to support you.

Personally, I think a stable social structure demands that families be the dominant living structure. But that is being rejected by a large part of our population and I don't see the country surviving that change.

35 and single woman here. I'll offer a different perspective. Why are so many guys finding the "harpies"? I think there are probably plenty of good women out there -- steady, logical, fun, and yes -- they enjoy sex. One problem might be that those women might be a bit older, or have smaller tits, or a bigger butt, or they might not be the type that hang out in bars and other pick-up spots. I don't know... I see a lot of good men out there mindlessly pursuing the T&A, and then they get their hearts shredded when the hot, highly-available chick moves on, or is crazy, or becomes the screaming harpy. Shouldn't it be about love and finding someone you can be friends and partners with? Or is it just not that simple anymore? (I keep thinking it should be simple, but what do I know -- I'm single, 35, and don't even date much.)

Where are all the Title X equal opportunity Nazis now that female undergrad enrollment is so much higher than mail enrollment? Even the feminist crickets are silent, meaning that all along Title X was not about equality, it was about destroying the role of the male in society.

What are the fruits of this battle for the rest of of us? We are going to be worse off in so many ways as time passes.

A large part of these 'I have been married for 50 years, from a different time and culture, so everything is OK in the world today' testimonials mask something bad...

...That the man's expectations have been lowered systematically.

They still 'enjoy' sex with their wives, but the outside world sees their 50-year-old wives as obese land-whales that no one else would want.

So the 'happiness' has a huge expectation-lowering component. I bet if any of these men had sex with a 25-year-old hottie even once, they would be as revulsed by their land-whale wives as the outside world is.

@Anonymous at 1:52. Do you think there is a pile of money in Social Security waiting for you to retire? Someone who isn't younger than you to care for you in your old age?

I've no dog in this fight. My son is, and will probably remain single. My daughters are married and soon to be married. I stole one of Japan's National Treasures, so I know nothing about the problems described here.

I disagree with the premise about all "Western" women. American women, not all of them but a very large number of them, are simply too demanding, too selfish, too pushy and too slutty. Me me me me me me me. I think in general you find European and foreign women have a softer quality to them that doesn't grate on the nerves. (I am the child of European immigrants so I know what I'm talking about.)

From UncleFred:I've been around six decades and was married for three of them. She died in an accident. Our marriage was far from honey and roses, but we each did our best to honor our commitment. I've been single for 12 years.

Simply put very very few women today of any age demonstrate the responsible adulthood of my late wife. Most of them are irresponsible children in an adult's body. It has little to do with education, and everything to do with a an unwillingness to acknowledge that they, and no one else is responsible for their decisions. Further in my age group most of them are still busy hating the guy they dumped and blaming my gender for his misdeeds or his failure to read her mind.

There are a few female adults out there, and not shockingly they are in high demand. BTW: Most of them are not fashion model beauties, just normal women who've taken reasonable care of themselves and have a brain and a sense of personal responsibility.

I'm an old guard kind of guy. Raised to do the heavy lifting, treat women as inherently valuable, and be a gentleman in the classic sense of the word. However, at my age and after my losses, I am completely intolerant of any kind of games. I don't compete with women. I am completely unthreatened by their success. I enjoy an intelligent woman who can handle her end of a conversation without resorting to PS -BS.

I've watched the government, and the PC police attempt to reduce men to chattel, and I've watched men throw off the lessons I was taught to survive.

Ladies. Shaming won't work, nor will the lash of government. Ultimately, in a democratic republic, 52% can not enslave 48%, especially when you require the help of the 48% to so do. If you are smart, you'll forgo the man hating parts of feminism and teach your daughters to value, love, and respect men for being men. You'll also support reforming the one sided legal process that is forcing men to opt out. If you don't many, perhaps most, of your daughters will end up unmarried, and alone.

Most men are pretty simple. We seek love and validation from a wife. We don't expect her to be perfect, but we do expect mutual loyalty, love, respect and partnership.

The major reason for marriage is religion. If you don't have it, you are unlikely to get it. The religious groups are reworking the demographics of America. Just as at every census, 7 to 10 seats in US House of representative are moved from the Big Blue Cities, of the Left coast and the Rust Belt, to the Red States.

In New York City, the country's largest Jewish group is rapidly changing from secular reform Jews, to Orthodox. The reason is that secular Jews have one child at best, while Orthodox women have five to six. The orthodox community uses many tactic to induce men to marry. But, the greatest is that you get no respect until you do.

American society has stripped respect from men; Men are mocked repeatedly on TV.

Let me tell you what will happen; Fifty years from now, men will be respected again as providers and protectors, because all the men-hating groups will die off without issue.

Any partnership has to have a benefit to both people involved. I don't believe men see any value in entering into a marriage. As single men they are either living alone and completely supporting themselves or with roommates and splitting expenses with the benefits of built in pals. Why on earth would they want to get married if by being married their situation doesn't change? Most marriages today consist of both people working which doesn't change your situation at all. Most marriages are run like roommate situations with each person throwing money int the pot for their share of the bills. Why get married if they can enjoy the single life? What benefit do men get? The benefit used to be a clean house, clean clothes and a hot meal. But today that isn't reality. With both people working, much of the household responsibility is expected to be split and then as I mentioned before, what is the benefit? Im not saying women should be barefoot and in the kitchen but someone ( man or woman) has got to take care of the home. In my experiance, women are afraid society will look down on them if they take care of their families instead of choosing a career. Their choice for a career is fine but leaves little time to nurture a relationship.

To the 35 year old woman. Let me put in female terms. A woman who is older, not very hot, and had a LOT LOT LOT of Alpha cocks, is like a cloying, simpering, supplicating, "supportive" and non-masculine beta male. In other words, totally and completely sexually repellent. There, fixed that for you.

A woman in her mid-late thirties, is competing with porn and prostitutes, to put it bluntly, who are a hell of a lot hotter. A woman that age, will likely average between 20-40 partners, easy. Most guys not deluded know it. Being Mr. 21, or 41, is not special. Women don't form attachments, desires, love, for the twenty-first or forty-first guy they banged. They just don't. Particularly as they are "settling." At best, they can get the dregs of men: guys with major problems, issues, or attractiveness degradation. Any attractive, desirable man can still bag a girl who is ten or more times hotter and maybe fifteen years younger.

Unless she's widowed, an attractive woman who wanted to get married would have done so years earlier. A woman age 35 is not worthless, but she is orders of magnitude less worthy in the Mate/Marriage market than she was at 20. This is just reality.

No, guys don't want fat, aging, lots-of-partners women any more than hot young things want beta males. Porn and prostitutes can beat most average, fat, women at that age (35+). More love, affection, and devotion can be found in a pet. And indeed the rapid increase in pet ownership suggests most men (and women) seek uncritical love from an animal rather than the opposite sex.

Bottom line: in order for men and women to pair up and form families that last, they need to do so fairly early. Ages 16-26 for women, ages 24-32 for men; there are strong reasons to forbid adolescent girls from pairing up (they're monumentally stupid for one) but historically this has been the norm for family formation, with as noted, older men, younger girls, age gap around 6-8 years, due to boys maturing more slowly and resource accumulation requirements.

I have to comment on something here about how many posts on this thread revolve around the physical act of sex. It seems to me that this whole mentality is why this whole society has gone off the rails. Lower class women were taught in the 1970's that they had every right to have meaningless sex as a man. And like some other posts have mentioned, who the hell wants some used up woman who's been banged by 20 or 40 different men? How is that any different than a prostitute and just exactly how is cock number 21 or 41 special?

I think the big issue here is that the opinion makers in this society focused on the act of sex and the dummies bought it. Nobody bothered to teach them to understand the relationship and nurturing aspect. It was all about orgasm, the least important aspect and I think this is why you see so many men these days finding mates in foreign countries. I think foreign women understand their role better whereas personality wise a lot of women have become no different than the masculine career wear they used to wear to the office in the 1980's.

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With sex so prevalent & less of "mysterious" now, marriage has to be (and rightfully so) more about true love. If a guy loves a girl, he will marry her and (assuming they want kids) will happily build a family.

OTOH, if all the relationship is about is "oh no! I'm still single at _X_ age!" guys don't care as much about that, and at __X___ age sex probably isn't nearly that compelling anymore. Whether it's a Ferrari or a Prius, you'll always get tired of driving it eventually.

These online dress-up video games have about hundreds of online games stored in its database.Unlike popular beliefs video games have how to use them which enable it to even be considered as being a learning tool. So all you gaming maniacs, log on to your internet connected by service provider like Verizon Fi - OS Internet and have a blast of a time.

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And Ouya, which is about the size of a Rubik's cube. Then came the ultra-popular Arkham games, that place you, like never before, into Batman's shoes as he skulks around and knocks hoodlums heads together (literaly). People are now looking to be able to connect to things like their vehicles through their smart phones, and now Buick has announced the release of their new e - Assist Fuel Effeciency smartphone games.

And Ouya, which is about the size of a Rubik's cube. t want to forget to buy your all star game tickets at Angels Stadium from an independent ticket broker that cares more about customer satisfaction than the bottom line. You can also customize the car including retractable hanggliders.

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In addition to this, now you can listen to the radios online, which is already getting to be pretty popular.One of the best internet radio apps I've found so far on the Windows Phone 7 Marketplace is for Last. com ( is the home site for a radio station only on the internet which provides exactly what it says: Worship music.

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Aside from the usual fare of alternative rock, jazz, and pop, among others, this station also showcases the work of and connects with indie artists from all over the globe.They get their revenues only from the commercials and hence, they charge nothing from their customers.On average, 32% of the population streams music, which is exactly the penetration of usage in the US.

Around 150 games in total, but that's relatively small compared to our users. Then came the ultra-popular Arkham games, that place you, like never before, into Batman's shoes as he skulks around and knocks hoodlums heads together (literaly). It's fast to build and play and will challenge your memory.

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I'd actually like to offer another thesis to the issue of shame. It is also apparent that there has already been much shame afflicted within western society. Men indeed do value social respect and status. Indeed, Paul instructs wifes in Ephesians to, "respect their husbands". Respect for a man is essential to his well being.

But in the modern western society, respect for men is not to be found. Simply put, men in western society are already riddled with the shame and pressure of a society which does not value them. In the face of which the furhter shame cast upon them is rendered impotent. Because the man has learnt that respect is something which he shall never recieve. Or even worse, is something to which he is not entitled.

sorry, hit the wrong stupid button. anyway, that Bible is so strict - yeah, the Lord has the nerve to tell folks that He doesn't approve of guys and gals shacking up. can you believe Him? yeah, He's got some nerve horning in on people's lifestyle. hey, if enough folks stand up and tell Him off...

It's funny. 7-9 years ago, I was obsessed with writing a blog about these topics. I could see all of this coming. The worst of it began with the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA). That was the inflection point at which the costs of marriage became larger than the benefits. (Some will say this happened before VAWA, and a case can be made for that). I felt like a lonely voice at the time. Now I have found the so-called manosphere and see our ranks of grown exponentially.

I am all for complaining about the current situation. The process of complaining brings people like us, that comment in these blogs, together. But I have to say that it is not enough. And we are often focused on the wrong people.

Too many people tend to blame women as if they are a monolithic force. The reality is that most of them are clueless. They don't know much about the system that has been created that has left them with such unsatisfied lives.

Where we need to start focusing our attention is on the men that created and now perpetuate the current system of female privilege (VAWA, extreme family court bias, men subsidizing women through Obamacare, and so on and so forth). The vast majority of politicians are still men. They pander to the female vote, promising to "protect" them. Then pass things like VAWA.

It's time we go after them. And do so in an organized fashion. They took the concept of equality and bastardized it into female privilege.

I'm eager to hear ideas about how to destroy the pathetic careers of these men.

Our society has turned into a hierarchical status system: grandparents who are married with children who are married and have offspring outrank grandparents who are married and have children who are married but do not have offspring outrank grandparents who are not married and parents who are married who have children who are unmarried outrank parents who are not married but who have children who outrank people who are married and without offspring who outrank those who are unmarried. The age and sex factors and social-economic-status factors are also operative as markers of rank, but people are acutely sensitive to their marital and reproductive status. People use their status ranking to compete with each other in the daily insult ritual as if it is appropriate to evaluate their world with likes or dislikes but without giving any explanations for why they have disavowed all other values than marriage and reproduction. Love, intimacy, equality all end up short-circuited into false beliefs.

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My name is Rebecca Miller I'm from united state, i have been married for 4 years and i have a break up with my husband 3 months ago and i was worried and so confuse because i love him so much. i was really going too depressed and a friend directed me to this spell caster Dr. Laco and i made all my problems known to him and he told me not to worry that he was going to make my husband to come back to me and in just 48hours i receive a call from my husband and he was appealing that i should come back to the house. i have never in my life believe in spell and but now it have just helped me and i am now so happy. All Thanks to him and if you also want to have your Husband back to yourself here !! his emailAddress(lacopowerfulspellcaster@yahoo.com) i am so happy to testify of your work and kindness

I am Joyce from Russia,I am here to say thanks and appreciate Dr Ekpiku of Ekpikuspelltemple@live.com,for all his help toward me,He really take his time to help me to cast a spell when i lost my lover to another woman...Thank you for the spell you cast that brings him back to me,we are now happily married with kids and we are more happier than never before,all thanks to you,Long leave Dr Ekpiku and Long leave Ekpikuspelltemple...A temple were all marital and relationship problems are solved,email Ekpikuspelltemple@live.com

I am Prophet Zack, i welcome you all to my world and wiseindividualspells of solution i want to assure you that what so ever you contacted me for will come to pass for you with the powers of our ancestors. i want to let you know that i am here to help you in any problem you might be facing right now in your life, i have been in the field of helping people for over 42years now, i want to let you know that i have helped solving over 1000 peoples problems in different countries and they have never stopped calling me to thank me for the good work i have done for them my good work has spread to so many countries why is because they have seen my good work and they helped me spread it all over to the whole world. I want to let you know that the moment you contact me just consider all your problems solved because i know that once i commence on your spell work you are going to testify to the whole world here is my email address contact me with it ( wiseindividualspells@gmail.com)

. Are you passing through any of these problems,

DO YOU NEED YOUR EX BACK VERY FAST

DO YOU NEED HIV CURE

DO YOU WANT TO BE PREGNANT

DON YOU WANT YOUR LOVER TO LOVE YOU AS NEVER LIKE BEFORE

ARE YOU SUFFERING FROM A LONG TIME SICKNESS

ARE YOU FACING FINANCIAL PROBLEMS

ARE YOU SEEKING FOR A GOOD JOB

DO YOU WANT TO BECOME A HOUSE OWNER

ARE YOU LOOKING FOR A FIRST CLASS GRADE

DO YOU WANT TO COME OUT FIRST IN YOUR EXAMS

ARE YOU A STAR AND YOU WANT TO BE SO POPULAR TO THE WHOLE WORLD

DO YOU WANT TO BE RICH

DO YOU WANT YOUR BUSINESS TO KEEP MOVING

DO YOU HAVE A COMPANY OF ANY KIND AND YOU WANT IT TO EXPAND

DO YOU WANT YOUR HUSBAND OR WIFE TO KEEP TO YOUR WORLD

ARE YOU FACING ANY MARITAL PROBLEMS

ARE YOU FINDING IT DIFFICULT TO GET PREGNANT FOR YOUR HUSBAND

ARE YOU EXPERIENCING MISCARRIAGES ANY TIME YOU TAKE IN

DO YOU WANT TO COMPETE IN ANY LOTTERY GAME

ARE YOU FACING HARDSHIP

HAVE YOU BEEN THREATENED BY SOMEONE

DO YOU WANT TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN ANY THING YOU LAY YOUR HANDS ON

IS YOUR SON OR DAUGHTER BEHAVING STRANGELY

ARE YOU FACING WITCH CRAFT MANIPULATIONS

DO YOU WANT TO CAST A STRONG LOVE SPELL ON YOUR GIRL OR BOY FRIEND

DO YOU HAVE ANY RELATION THAT IS ABNORMAL

DO YOU NEED MAGIC POWERS TO DO ANY THING YOU WANT

ARE YOU FINDING IT DIFFICULT TO CHOOSE A LIFE PARTNER

DO YOU WANT YOUR PARENTS TO BE PROUD OF YOU

DO YOU NEED A PROTECTION SPELL

ARE YOU EXPERIENCING FAILURE AND DISAPPOINTMENT IN ANY THING YOU DO.(ETC)

If you are facing any of these problems all you just need do is to contact via email ( wiseindividualspells@gmail.com)and it will be handle with full force and with my oracle and ancestors beside me i want to make you testify just the same way other people did that i have helped. Do not die in pain and silence email me so that your problems will be solved by me with full speed.I want welcome you again to my spell temple.If you have any problem that you want my help for just email me and immediately it will be solved. Here is my email address( wiseindividualspells@gmail.com)

Well, I think so age and race should not be matter. There are some sites like meetsinglestoday which provides equal opportunity for every individuals related to every religion, age and race by uniting them. These kinds of complications happen in relationships, they best way of sorting out these issues is to consult with some good virtual dating adviser for resolving problems.

I think it is necessary for the single men to forget about the general rules, there are 100% free dating sites in the world such as MeetOutside where these days both women and men are going, just find the one right for yourself, this leads to happiness, no point in getting in any sort of a race.

At last my happiness has been restored by a Man named Dr ABUBAKAR ,, my name’s are miss JOY i want every one on this site or forum to join me thank this DR ABUBAKAR for what he just did for me and my kids . my story goes like this i was married to my husband for 5 years we were living happily together for this years and not until he traveled to Italy for a business trip where he met this prostitute who be witched he to hate me and the kids and love her only so when my husband came back from the trip he said he does not want to see me and my kids again so he drove us out of the house and he was now going to Italy for to see that other woman. so i and my kids were now so frustrated and i was just staying with my mum and i was not be treating good because my mama got married to another man when after my daddy death so the man she got married to was not treating i and my kids well so i was so confuse and i was searching for a way to get my husband back to me and my kids so one day as i was browsing on my computer i saw a testimony about this MAN DR ABUBAKAR of drabubakarlovespell@gmail.com shared on the internet by a lady and it impress me too so i also think of give it a try at first a was scared by when i think of what me and my kids are passing through so i contact him and he told me to stay calm for just two days that my husband shall be restored to me and to my best surprise i received a call from my husband on the second day asking after the kids and i called Dr ABUBAKAR and he said your problems are solved my child so this was how i get my family back after a long stress of brake up by an evil lady so with all this help from DR ABUBAKAR of drabubakarlovespell@gmail.com i want you all on this forum to join me to say a huge thanks to DR ABUBAKAR and i will also advice for any one in such or similar problems or any kind of problems should also contact him for help

I want to give a special thanks to the prophet that helped me got my partner back. my name is Danielle steven, early this year, i and my wife started having some issues and she left me and the kids even when i loved her so much. I was frustrated to the extent that i started looking for links on the internet on how to get her back. One day i came across a testimony in which a lady was testifying of how this prophet helped her got her man back i was able to contact this DR VOVOLA and helped me put everything in order and my wife came back to me just as i wanted. this prophet is great if you know you have any problem here is his email address vovolaspellcast@yahoo.com if you are out there passing through any of this problems listed below:

1) If you want your ex back.(2) if you always have bad dreams.(3) You want to be promoted in your office.(4) You want women/men to run after you.(5) If you want a child.(6) You want to be rich.(7) You want to tie your husband/wife to be yours forever.(8) If you need financial assistance.

you can contact him via: website: http://vovolaspellcast-com.webs.com/

Am here to testify what this great spell caster done for me. i never believe in spell casting, until when i was was tempted to try it. i and my husband have been having a lot of problem living together, he will always not make me happy because he have fallen in love with another lady outside our relationship, i tried my best to make sure that my husband leave this woman but the more i talk to him the more he makes me fell sad, so my marriage is now leading to divorce because he no longer gives me attention. so with all this pain and agony, i decided to contact this spell caster to see if things can work out between me and my husband again. this spell caster who was a woman told me that my husband is really under a great spell that he have been charm by some magic, so she told me that she was going to make all things normal back. she did the spell on my husband and after 5 days my husband changed completely he even apologize with the way he treated me that he was not him self, i really thank this woman her name is Dr Aluta she have bring back my husband back to me i want you all to contact her who are having any problem related to marriage issue and relationship problem she will solve it for you. her email is traditionalspellhospital@gmail.com she is a woman and she is great. wish you good time.He cast spells for different purposes like(1) If you want your ex back.(2) if you always have bad dream(3) You want to be promoted in your office.(4) You want women/men to run after you.(5) If you want a child.(6) You want to be rich.(7) You want to tie your husband/wife to be yours forever.(8) If you need financial assistance.(9) HIV/AIDS CURE(10) is the only answer to that your problem of winning the lottery