Author
Topic: Ukrainians in ROCOR (Read 1637 times)

I am curious on the Ukrainian influence and population in ROCOR. I know Metropolitan Hilarion is of Ukrainian heritage, but are there parishes in ROCOR that are predominantly Ukrainian in membership? If so, is the Ukrainian language largely spoken in them? What is the Ukrainian population among the monastics at Jordanville?

We have several at our parish. For some reason, most of them speak Russian predominantly, and when I ask them about their specific Ukrainianism, they wave their hand in the air and say, "Och, it's all the same. Russian, Ukrainian-what does it matter?" I find this curious and wonder if it depends upon where one was born in Ukraine and their age. Many of these seem to be born in Eastern/ North-eastern Ukraine.

We have several at our parish. For some reason, most of them speak Russian predominantly, and when I ask them about their specific Ukrainianism, they wave their hand in the air and say, "Och, it's all the same. Russian, Ukrainian-what does it matter?" I find this curious and wonder if it depends upon where one was born in Ukraine and their age. Many of these seem to be born in Eastern/ North-eastern Ukraine.

I once had a student from Ukraine who told me that the young people mostly speak Russian.

Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

We have several at our parish. For some reason, most of them speak Russian predominantly, and when I ask them about their specific Ukrainianism, they wave their hand in the air and say, "Och, it's all the same. Russian, Ukrainian-what does it matter?" I find this curious and wonder if it depends upon where one was born in Ukraine and their age. Many of these seem to be born in Eastern/ North-eastern Ukraine.

I once had a student from Ukraine who told me that the young people mostly speak Russian.

Depends on the region of Ukraine. Western Ukraine is predominantly Ukrainian-speaking.

If they are from the West (as my family, who is from Lviv), then they are Ukrainian and are proud of it. If they are from East of Kiev, then you get a mix.

No matter which part of Ukraine they may be from, I think if a Ukrainian Orthodox Christian was unable to go to a UOC parish for whatever reason, they would probably feel more culturally akin to a ROCOR parish then say, a GOA parish.

Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

If they are from the West (as my family, who is from Lviv), then they are Ukrainian and are proud of it. If they are from East of Kiev, then you get a mix.

No matter which part of Ukraine they may be from, I think if a Ukrainian Orthodox Christian was unable to go to a UOC parish for whatever reason, they would probably feel more culturally akin to a ROCOR parish then say, a GOA parish.

You know, I (a Ukrainian) wouldn't bet on it. I think I understand Greek a lot better than Old Church Slavonic.

If they are from the West (as my family, who is from Lviv), then they are Ukrainian and are proud of it. If they are from East of Kiev, then you get a mix.

No matter which part of Ukraine they may be from, I think if a Ukrainian Orthodox Christian was unable to go to a UOC parish for whatever reason, they would probably feel more culturally akin to a ROCOR parish then say, a GOA parish.

You know, I (a Ukrainian) wouldn't bet on it. I think I understand Greek a lot better than Old Church Slavonic.

Truly? My Russian is abdominable by any standard and yet i can understand almost the entire service and can get the basic essence of the meaning even when reading fairly complicated tractates. However, I feel very alienated at a Greek church, because I simply can't understand a word (aside from the "Lord have mercy" and other greek words which anyone who has read anything would know). Also, the culture is even more jarringly foreign than the Russian culture. On the surface, most Greeks seem highly integrated into mainstream society, but there's still this specific Greekness to them, which I, a cold, shy Northern European can't quite relate to (sadly). And many Ukrainians seem even colder and shyer than myself, so I can't quite imagine how they'd fit in, if I can't.

I would agree with Handmaiden that for most Ukrainians, ROCOR is far more like anything I anyhow, experienced in Ukraine (in custom and practice) than the Greek Church.

I know the Sunday that my priest was out of town, I attended Divine Liturgy at a Serbian church...because of the Church Slavonic. It was closer to Ukrainian and felt "better" than English. I was completely able to participate in the Liturgy. I cannot vouch how I would feel in a Greek church, as I've only been to one, once, and that particular service was in English.

As for the "Ukrainian" people who said it's all the same, I would venture they were born in Ukraine, but, weren't necessarily of Ukrainian heritage.

One must keep in mind that under Communism, being Ukrainian was discouraged. People were not allowed to speak Ukrainian. Books were written in Russian, not Ukrainian. Kids in school were taught in Russian, etc. Remember, if you were Ukrainian in that era, you often found yourself persecuted, exiled or killed. Therefore, it isn't surprising that this current generation is "confused". It'll take a few generations to get things back on track!

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Yes, I agree with you completely, Liza. In fact, when I lived there, it always quite amazed me the amount of people who had married a Russian or someone from one of the other former Soviet Republics (I also knew a woman who had married an Armenian and this woman's father was Russian and her mother was Ukrainian). Others had married Jewish people. So even within one seemingly homogeneous country, you have several different mixtures.

I know the Sunday that my priest was out of town, I attended Divine Liturgy at a Serbian church...because of the Church Slavonic. It was closer to Ukrainian and felt "better" than English. I was completely able to participate in the Liturgy. I cannot vouch how I would feel in a Greek church, as I've only been to one, once, and that particular service was in English.

As for the "Ukrainian" people who said it's all the same, I would venture they were born in Ukraine, but, weren't necessarily of Ukrainian heritage.

One must keep in mind that under Communism, being Ukrainian was discouraged. People were not allowed to speak Ukrainian. Books were written in Russian, not Ukrainian. Kids in school were taught in Russian, etc. Remember, if you were Ukrainian in that era, you often found yourself persecuted, exiled or killed. Therefore, it isn't surprising that this current generation is "confused". It'll take a few generations to get things back on track!

That was an improvement: the Czars banned it.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

If they are from the West (as my family, who is from Lviv), then they are Ukrainian and are proud of it. If they are from East of Kiev, then you get a mix.

No matter which part of Ukraine they may be from, I think if a Ukrainian Orthodox Christian was unable to go to a UOC parish for whatever reason, they would probably feel more culturally akin to a ROCOR parish then say, a GOA parish.

You know, I (a Ukrainian) wouldn't bet on it. I think I understand Greek a lot better than Old Church Slavonic.

That's interesting. Although I found myself catching on to the Greek, I can follow along with the Church Slavonic better. Also, ROCOR uses polyphonic chant just as the UOC does. I should clarify when I wrote the post I was thinking from a cultural perspective as well.

No matter, the important thing is that an Orthodox Christian worships in an Orthodox Church; jurisdiction doesn't matter.

Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

coming from a ukrainian greek catholic and ukrainian orthodox usa ep background i have my own views on this issue. while the antiphons are different between the greek catholics and the uoc the small traditions are almost the same where i am from. the tones..style of singing are the same..wooden clappers on good friday..same little traditions..even the ukrainian orthodox use wedding vows like the ukrainian greek catholics. the small village style of carrying out the services versus the higly organised rocor liurgics are completely different between the uoc and rocor. i enjoy church slavonic as the ukrainian orthodox and ukrainian greek catholics in my area use it.. it is interesting to attend a rocor parish in westerb pa..where the priest uses muscow -ronounced slavonic and the ukrainian americans respond and sing in ukrainian pronounced slavonic. i must admit..i am sometimes a russified ukrainian american and throughly enjoy the rocor services. but then again ukrainian presanctified touch the heart like no russian/oca presanctified ever could. plus singing "having suffered..preterijy'pivy" is one borrowed polish roman catholic tradition i would never give up.

I think that a lot of the DP's who made up the majority of the "old line" ROCOR parishes in the USA came from Eastern and Southern Ukraine. They, of course, identified themselves as Russians but they came from areas of the Ukraine. This is because these DP's were from the German occupied areas of the U.S.S.R. during World War II. They, like many Ukrainians and Belorussians, chose to retreat west with the German army rather then live under soviet servitude.

From what I know, not that much of great Russia itself was occupied during the war. The German army made it to the gates of Moscow by November, 1941, but this was as far as they got and the rest of the war was pretty much a retreat for them from that point.

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

coming from a ukrainian greek catholic and ukrainian orthodox usa ep background i have my own views on this issue. while the antiphons are different between the greek catholics and the uoc the small traditions are almost the same where i am from. the tones..style of singing are the same..wooden clappers on good friday..same little traditions..even the ukrainian orthodox use wedding vows like the ukrainian greek catholics. the small village style of carrying out the services versus the higly organised rocor liurgics are completely different between the uoc and rocor. i enjoy church slavonic as the ukrainian orthodox and ukrainian greek catholics in my area use it.. it is interesting to attend a rocor parish in westerb pa..where the priest uses muscow -ronounced slavonic and the ukrainian americans respond and sing in ukrainian pronounced slavonic. i must admit..i am sometimes a russified ukrainian american and throughly enjoy the rocor services. but then again ukrainian presanctified touch the heart like no russian/oca presanctified ever could. plus singing "having suffered..preterijy'pivy" is one borrowed polish roman catholic tradition i would never give up.

How I miss that last part (I went to a OCA parish for a number of years, which was Carpatho-Russian, and then a Great Russia parish/cathedral where they didn't have it. We don't have it in Antioch at all.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

That's interesting. Although I found myself catching on to the Greek, I can follow along with the Church Slavonic better. Also, ROCOR uses polyphonic chant just as the UOC does. I should clarify when I wrote the post I was thinking from a cultural perspective as well.

I studied music history in university. It was interesting, there was opposition to the introduction of polyphony in the West... and later to the introduction of a worldly and secular instrument, the organ (which ironically, became viewed as a church instrument). I have fallen in love with Slavonic polyphony, both of the Russian and Ukrainian kind. I need to spend more time with the Greeks for that tradition to sink in.

Gregorian Chant, which is the liturgical heritage of the Latin West - abandoned after Vatican II - avoids polyphony altogether!