Sherlock wrote:Actually just yesterday he said that you can integrate teachings from other teachers, Gelugpa, Sakyapa etc with Guru Yoga but advised against telling them that because they would disagree.

Are you sure he was not talking about integrating the teachers into Guru Yoga? I don't see how you could integrate other teachings into Guru Yoga, but Rinpoche always encourages us to integrate all of our teachers while doing Guru Yoga.

No, he was talking about sadhana practice daily commitments! I frankly do not see why this is hard to understand. This was also teaching of Kunzang Dechen Lingpa.

I see. I know you have said this for years I just don't recall hearing ChNN or KDL ever saying this, at teachings I was at. Is this only for daily practice commitments, but not for instance, for 14 root tantric samayas? Or, for that matter, samayas such as the yogi vow which is Dzogchen related you have to keep your hair natural, and uncut?

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

dorje e gabbana wrote:I think CNNR's teaching about the way to integrate all samaya trough Guruyoga is very precious. But GY according to him is sinynomous of rigpa because he is a dzogchen master and not a tantric master.

Not exactly. He has stated that even if you don't have recognition of your real nature yet,then when you do Ati Guru Yoga at least you get near that state. So it certainly qualifies as Guruyoga.

Unfortunately many people is not very interested in understandig if they really recognize what your suppesed to recognize in Dzog chen. T They are just satisfied sounding A and everthing is really wonderful

Another misrepresentation. The question was "Can Ati Guru Yoga received from ChNN maintain your comittments to previously taken tantric practice commitments, etc." The answer, for those people who do not have wax in their ears and cobwebs in their eyes, YES!

This way to face the issue is superficial. The real problem of CNNR's White A GY is not about pracrtitioner good will. Good will it is enogh good probably in catholic church. Rather the real probelm of GY to integrate all samayas is to be or not to be in rigpa state as you recognized here:

Ati Guru Yoga is .......... It is a method of discovering your instant presence, a supreme method, more important than many others.

And you should take the responsibilty to dig in to that, to understand the real implications of this subject with respect to the samaya keeping process associated with it.

Still, you should know better than to sow doubts in people's minds when they ask honest questions.....

Malcom you seem like the Catholic priests who have to save the church's dogma at any cost, discoragimg the deep undertanding of what you are doing, thinking that every act of investigation about Dzog chen GY and tantric samaya is poison for weak minds that Samatabadra itself asked you to protect against bad guys like me who sow doubts....

I think DC practioners are intelligent people and not 7 years old children like you seem to think. Furthermore doubt helps real knowledge and they can be also interested in other ideas different from your apodictic undertanding of what is ortodx in CNNR teaching and what it is not.

This true, nevertheless if you understand what it symbolizes, even if only intellectually, I think it is sufficient

I'd like to say: "don't warry Man everything is fine" Unfortunately Dzog chen has nothing doing with "what you understand what it symbolizes, even if only intellectually"

Dzog chen and white A GY are far beyond intellectual understanding.This is the real problem many people do not dare to face, because if after 10 yrs they think to practice dozgchen they suddenly discover that have been practicing no real dzogchen, if they admit it they woluld feel very depressed and keep on dreaming the faked dzog chen dream they have been play with a long time

Last edited by dorje e gabbana on Fri May 25, 2012 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You can't predict who's reading those words, how they construe what you're saying and how it'll influence them - and your words happen to pertain to the very heart of Dzogchen practice. Are you in any way qualified to do what you're doing here right now?

dorje e gabbana wrote: I think DC practioners are intelligent people and not 7 years old children like you seem to think.

Apparently not since you insult their intelligence at every turn and tell them that what they have heard that have not heard, what they have seen, they have not seen. It is actually you who are insisting that DC people are children, and not the other way around.

Anyway:

"First of all, when you take a a Tantric Initiation, you're given a water to drink. And this is called the water of one's vows, of one's promises. When you drink that water you've taken a kind of oath. You've sworn to follow that which you are about to commit yourself to. Many people do not know all this and collect hundreds of of different initiations. If one does this and then does nothing about these commitments, far from having done yourself good, what you have done is created obstacles and impediments for yourself.

What do you have to do? You have to maintain the transmission. If you're a practitioner of Dzogchen and understand the principle involved, and you don't remain in some boxed-in limited conditions, you can for all of these commitments made carry them to the level of Guruyoga. Whatever transmissions you have received, you can take them to the level of their unification,and at that level practice the Guruyoga. In such a case it all becomes positive. That is to say, you're acting to deepen and develop all these transmissions you have received.

You have to remember that this is the way of seeing of a Dzogchen practitioner. If one lives limited and boxed in to some level of teaching, then that's not the case for you. But you have to therefore understand and see through the limits of the traditions and systems.

Talks in OZ, 1982 ppg 171-172

As far as I can tell, you are very interested in keeping people in boxes of your own contrivance.

Malcolm wrote:Yes! For the 100th time! I have said this over and over again for years. I find it hard to beleive that anyone who has been following ChNN's teachings for years could have failed to hear him say this.

M

Perhaps I did hear, and forgot. Hard to say. Although I have great respect for ChNN, and use many things he has taught me, he is not my main teacher since I feel it is important to have more access to my main teacher for questions and clarification than a moment on stage every couple years in the midst of a long line or a short email. As such, I have had many teachings which may not agree with ChNN's perspective.

I also was a student of KDL, could you clarify what he said regarding Guru Yoga fulfilling commitments? Which guru yoga was he referring to, any one, or a specific terma of his own?

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Malcolm wrote:Yes! For the 100th time! I have said this over and over again for years. I find it hard to beleive that anyone who has been following ChNN's teachings for years could have failed to hear him say this.

M

Perhaps I did hear, and forgot. Hard to say. Although I have great respect for ChNN, and use many things he has taught me, he is not my main teacher since I feel it is important to have more access to my main teacher for questions and clarification than a moment on stage every couple years in the midst of a long line or a short email. As such, I have had many teachings which may not agree with ChNN's perspective.

I also was a student of KDL, could you clarify what he said regarding Guru Yoga fulfilling commitments? Which guru yoga was he referring to, any one, or a specific terma of his own?

[i]" Whatever transmissions you have received, you can take them to the level of their unification,and at that level practice the Guruyoga. In such a case it all becomes positive. That is to say, you're acting to deepen and develop all these transmissions you have received.

This seems a bit different than Guru Yoga just automatically fulfilling samayas. It sounds to me that there is a specific intention involved to do so, "to take them to their unification". Similar to intentionally feeling remorse being important when confessing broken samaya and doing the long Vajrasattva mantra in the tantric context. So it seems it is important to at least recall your samayas, feel that you are unifying them into the practice of Guruyoga, and really doing your best to fully develop that practice, not a half-hearted "Ah" while distracted by something else, etc.

Or do you read this differently Malcolm?

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Adamantine wrote:Perhaps I did hear, and forgot. Hard to say. Although I have great respect for ChNN, and use many things he has taught me, he is not my main teacher since I feel it is important to have more access to my main teacher for questions and clarification than a moment on stage every couple years in the midst of a long line or a short email. As such, I have had many teachings which may not agree with ChNN's perspective.

We all have different paths. He is my main Guru. So for me, what he says matters first, then upadeshas, then tantras, etc. -- last on the list and very far down is the opinion of other Lamas.

eah, to be fair, and as Malcolm knows, this was the advice given directly to me by ChNNR, he also clarified other points regarding Samaya with me, without going into specifics he assured me that specific instructions I have had from my Guru were identical to his, and all was satisfied with GY. This was also further confirmed to me by my Guru's brother, another Dzogchen master I trust.

I think CNNR's teaching about the way to integrate all samaya trough Guruyoga is very precious. But GY according to him is sinynomous of rigpa because he is a dzogchen master and not a tantric master.

Well, many people are satisfied with general answers and don't dig in to the problem because they are not aware of all the implicatons or just to cut the story short not to feel guilty conscience Try to ask CNNR instead very directly if the samaya are kept even if you are not in the rigpa state and just sound A, using your mind and not abiding in the nautre of mind..

The way to integrate all the lineages and samayas in the "White A guru yoga" does not mean that everthing is OK if you practice GY only following a dzog chen style, rather the real issue is to be really in dzog chen state of natural mind , and if you are or you are not in that rigpa state while you sound A and visualize the A in the tigle.The problem is blatantly evident to anybody endowed with medium intelligence, unless you do not deliberately intend not to take it in consideration and you are not a Dzogchen practioners but rather a dzogchenist who feel happy to attend whatever Dzogchen church where they are nice people to get friend and dance and sing together. CNNR was clearly against this blind way to approach Dzog chen and he repeated many times that if one method doesn't work to discover what rigpa really is you have many methods to recognize it and you have to apply until you are not sure according to master explanation to be in the rigpa state. Unfortunately many people is not very interested in understandig if they really recognize what your suppesed to recognize in Dzog chen. TThey are just satisfied sounding A and everthing is really wonderful

.

Firstly, I didn't get a 'general answer' from ChNNR, when I said 'without going into specifics' I meant I wasn't going into specifics about my conversations with ChNNR.

I directly asked him about a Sadhana I do, and my introduction and experience with my main Guru etc. ChNNR addressed my specific questions.

Secondly I asked the question regarding GY to my Guru's brother, who is a respected Dzogchen master, and he confirmed GY fulfilled my commitments and offer further personal advice on how to apply it.

Yes, I read it to mean that since the goal of all teachings is Atiyoga, doing Ati Guru Yoga sincerely actually develops all these transmissions.

People keep on bringing up this idea of a half-hearted A etc. Don't you understand that this in itself is a distracting misrepresentation? Or is it more important to you to tease out every possible defect then understand the main goddamn point?

Last edited by Malcolm on Fri May 25, 2012 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yes, I read to mean that since the goal of all teachings is Atiyoga, doing Ati Guru Yoga sincerely actually develops all these transmissions.

People keep on bringing up this idea of a half-hearted A etc. Don't you understand that this in itself is a distracting misrepresentation? Or is it more important to you to tease out every possible defect then understand the main goddamn point?

Maybe be more patient, my friend. No need to keep cursing or exclaiming. I don't think I ever raised any hostile tone, maybe others have and I am sorry for that. I was just seeking clarification on this point, as it does seem to contrast with the commentary I quoted from Dudjom Rinpoche, one of the greatest Dzogchen masters of our age.

Regarding a half-hearted Ah, I only mentioned this because in fulfilling other daily commitments I have, sometimes when I have little time or have procrastinated too long I am half-awake and just going through the motions, a formulaic pretension of practice. This is probably easier to do with sadhanas then the white A guru yoga, but I brought it up since it is possible to approach even that the same way. I was not implying others had this problem, or trying to jerk your chain.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha