I do not have sympathy with Joel Osteen or his likes, for they turn away the people from repentence. I feel for the multitudes that follow him. It is sad to see so many people not able to discern the truth and falling for such crap.

I can heartily agree with this appraisal, and know it from my own experience in my "un-churched" youth. I'm also glad that you included Billy Graham's "ministry" in this, precisely because (though he's not a "word of faith" type) one of those youthful experiences involved it.

I remember in my teens, just as I was starting to get an interest in important questions (and not coming from a religious household - by no means atheistical or anti-religious, just "a-religious" in most respects), I caught one of his "crusades" on television. I noticed the offer for some free literature, so I called the 800-number to request it.

Well, what I got on the other hand was (I know this in hindsight) a ridiculous hard sell for "Christ." Sincerely at that point I was quite non-commital, yet the person on the phone was convinced (like any good telemarketer) to "sell me" something - in this case, I mean, verbally accepting "Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour". In reality, I was just a dumb kid who wanted to read the booklets - I was just as non-commital when the conversation ended, as I was when it began. I just told him what he wanted to hear, so he'd shut up, take my address, and send my books. Not very principled on my part, but then again, I was the unwashed kid - the person on the other end of the line was the supposed "Christian soul-winner." And I have no doubt whatsoever, that each one of the operators they had, was keeping count - just like any good telemarketer.

This is why, to this day, I find the numbers these evangelicals provide about their success to be largely meaningless. Really what they do mean, is that they've probably stolen someone away from another group, or "ruined" that person for the other group - but as far as actually acquiring that person for another, distinct creed and way of life, I'm convinced that most of the time this doesn't actually happen, or that when it does, it's often short lived. These are the kind of people who think because they shook a "sinner's prayer" out of some poor third-worlder with the lure of a bowl of rice or worse yet, a handful of money, they've not only brought that person over to something, but indeed that this person is "saved" - they're going to Heaven, that's it.

That is insane, and is why I'm of the mind that those not coming from firmly confessional, conservative Protestant backgrounds at the very least (with a Trinitarian form of baptism), need to not simply be Baptized for "correctness" sake, but also to reflect the reality that they are basically no more "Christian" than the fervant adherants of some infidellic religion or paganism. They have a little shared terminology with the Church, some shared namesakes, that's about it - for even the Jews or Muslims would tell you "God is one" or that He discerns between good and evil, etc. (though even they, unlike these evangelicals, confess that He is the rewarder of good and evil.)

And speaking of Billy Graham, there has been some not-well-known controversy surrounding him over the past decade or so about his being involved in Freemasonry (very heavily, apparently.....it appears he is a Mason of the 33rd degree).....he (or rather his associates) deny it up and down, even though there has been a biographical book about a man (Evangelical) who became "saved" from Freemasonry, who says he saw Billy Graham "greet him as a fellow brother" upon receiving his 33rd degree......he was later advised to remove the explicit reference to his name in this book (which is why the book simply refers to him as "a well-known televangelist")

Augustine - I know what you mean about those booklets. I was 'converted' by a fervent Baptist guy - i listened to the gospel and responded, but after that he just left me hanging - no follow up or anything, so i just drifted back into my old life, in some ways worse off than before. It was a wonderful group of patient RCs that actually rescued me from destruction at that time (1974). One church (pentecostal)i knew of which was had the largest numbers in this state were claiming to have 15 - 20 converts per Sunday night service, but then a friend of mine heard from somebody on the inside that 70% of those were leaving after a few months. Its kindof like fast food, the same approach, there is no real depth - i think that if God works in those contexts its more despite of their theology/praxis than because of - i mean he spoke through a donkey once too! I don't mean that judgementally but one has to look at the fruit.

billy graham is speaking in NYC at the end of june, in one of the parks, free admission. there are billboards everywhere about it. doubt i'll be going because im too busy, but i was surprised to see he's still active and giving talks and such - there's a pic of him on the billboards, i assume from the present, and he is getting pretty old. the pic looked dignified tho...wonder what he's gunna talk about.

Nowhere, either in the Bible or Tradition (as if the two were separate anyway), does it say anything about "accepting Jesus in your heart"....Salvation is by Baptism, repentance, and the laying on of hands....."accepting Jesus in your heart" is an invention by American Evangelicals of the 1950's an onwards (it does not appear in history any time before that), something Billy Graham had a big hand in.......so Billy Graham, his personal life or whatever moral beliefs aside, preaches lies and doctrines of demons and I encourage everyone to cover their ears upon ever hearing his voice.

Billy Graham has never been about money. He is not even comparable to Benny Hinn in any sense. Graham is a true man of God.

I don't think anyone implied Billy Graham was an oppulent thief like these other folks (though to be honest, I wouldn't know either way - I don't know what his ministry has him payrolled for); the comparison relates to all of the named preaching pseudo-Christianity.

If Billy Graham is a "true man of God", then "orthodoxy" has nothing to do with such appraisals. I'm kind of perplexed that you'd say that - being charismatic and popular does not equal "sanctity" or even Godly-wisdom for that matter.

Nowhere, either in the Bible or Tradition (as if the two were separate anyway), does it say anything about "accepting Jesus in your heart"

What are you talking about?

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. EPHESIANS 3:17

Christ in you, the hope of glory. COLOSSIANS 1:27

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me.REVELATION 3:20

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.ROMANS 2:29

You shall love the Lord your God. with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength...MATTHEW 22:37

We must take good care of all of our body parts as we are the temple of the Holy Ghost, we are not our own, we are bought with a price. Jesus died for us so we could be filled with His presence (I Cor. 6:19 & 20).

Matthew.....those verses have to do with appropriating the Life of Christ in you through repentance and sanctity of life....they have nothing to do with saying some magical prayer which "infallibly saves you" by "asking Jesus to come into your heart" ....this is another Evangelical heresy

I wouldn't call it a "magical" cure for sin. Accepting Jesus Christ into one's heart as personal Lord and Savior is an essential to salvation. It is not magical but mystical.

And they stop here, and there is nothing more dangerous than half-truth that deceive the people about their salvation. A person outside the christian faith is in a better position to know the truth, for he might accept the continuous revelations by God and "visits" of the Holy Spirit one day. The steadfast are not in danger, yet the lukewarm are the worst.

The names of the preachers/pastors I mentioned in a previous post are the same product but in many versions that chnaged with time, age, group targeted and with the means available. Billy Graham is the first to realize the potential of such industry, a pioneer, a genius, and many followed. Whether or not he is about money does not take away from the fact that he is a very marketable product, and he is definitely not "non-profit". When it comes to the evangelical teachings, I agree with Augustine's assessment. They are very poor in their thoughts, in knowledge and are void of truth.

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In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)

Do you mean part of the charismatic movement ? No, he is not, I never saw him heal anybody, but I do not follow him on a regular basis. What I meant is a man of charisma, at least for those who listen to him.

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In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)

The sad fact is that JOel Osteen and his ilk have spawned a whole generation of imitators down to the local level in your neighborhood. A church in my neighborhood wants its Sunday Mornings to be seeker-sensitive. As a result they have removd crosses from their building. What communism couldn't do, capitalism will.

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Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!

My recent post on the topic in the Modern Church Fathers seems apt: "Not many believed in the witness of previous fathers; and this not because the testimony is false but because faith entails ascetic living."

Elder Sophrony

It seems to me that this type of "spirituality" has its root in the divorce of ascetical life from Christianity that began to happen in the West. This is one of the results of seeing Christianity as a belief system rather than a way of life.

I think this is probably the best thing I've heard regarding "mega church" pastors. It's not judgemental, yet brings a sad truth to their mission.

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"The one who is free can go wherever he wishes to, in the light of the manifested grace. The captured one will be led by the captor, and will at the same time be convinced that he is his own guide" -- Met. Nahum of Strumica

- Does Joel Osteen actually say anything religious of any kind during his sermons ? Sure, he starts with holding the Bible and during the program some verses, unrelated to the subject, appear at the bottom of the screen, but is there any relgious substance in the sermons ? The "be all you can be" and "I believe I can fly" sermons can be carried out by any charismatic speaker and does not need any knowledge.

- Joel Osteen, like Billy Graham, Joyce Meyers, Benny Henn (my favorite) and others are a marketing product that is distributed and brings in big money. The marketing techniques employed to elevate them to stardom is analogous to the tactics used in the making of a rapper or a pop singer. A raw talent, discovered , polished, trained, presented to the public targeting a certain group, and the revenues are shared.

- I do not have sympathy with Joel Osteen or his likes, for they turn away the people from repentence. I feel for the multitudes that follow him. It is sad to see so many people not able to discern the truth and falling for such crap.

Ugh, Benny Hinn. I actually bought one of his books after my born again experience, but even then I knew it was such crap. I almost sold it on Amazon before I researched his history. I'm going to burn it one day or just let it sit on my shelf forever. I absolutely refuse to sell it for money (I'll give it away if someone wants the book for research purposes).

My old church LOVED Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar (what a sketchy name for a televangelist!), Kenneth Copeland. I don't know what God was doing, but even in those days I refused to touch their ministries with a 10 foot pole. One of my mentors wanted to read a Joyce Meyer book with me, and she actually mentioned that she doesn't sin any more! Wow, Joyce! I want your secret!

And Joel Osteen? If you meet a man that never stops smiling, not even for a second, DON'T TRUST HIM. That rule usually works for me. There's a difference between being joyful and looking like you stitched the corners of your mouth to look like that.

Word-faith is a pile of mumbo jumbo and I can't believe that people think that we deserve to be rich. I thank God that I got the courage to leave this kind of church.

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

My father is hooked to Joel Osteen. He's DVR'ed his shows every week for a while now, he even got a DVD and he's getting mail from him too. He's suggesting that I watch him simply over the fact that he's a "motivational speaker". When my father asks me that, I just go "eh-heh" just to finish the conversation with the knowledge that Joel is preaching a gospel that doesn't sound right at all. It sounds spiritually damaging. I haven't watched one program of his and I don't plan to either knowing that he teaches heresy.