Guinness will get scanned in a few years, and the results will be registered with OFA. That means anyone looking up Guinness' parents, or other relatives will be able to see at least one MRI result from a related dog. Good or bad, it will be available.

Looking through the heart results from Guinness pedigree has been such a help, MRI is the next step to making sure breeding is done for the right reasons.

14th December 2009, 02:36 PM

ByFloSin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soushiruiuma

Guinness will get scanned in a few years, and the results will be registered with OFA. That means anyone looking up Guinness' parents, or other relatives will be able to see at least one MRI result from a related dog. Good or bad, it will be available.

Looking through the heart results from Guinness pedigree has been such a help, MRI is the next step to making sure breeding is done for the right reasons.

I totally agree with you Soushiruiuma.

Looking at SM and mvd from a breeding point of view, Brian, don't you think it would be useful for those who bred your dogs to know their health status. It's easy to blame poor breeding for the health problems that may arise at a future date, but how do breeders breed for health if they have no idea of the health status of their mature, sold on pups?

I have had two out of five of mine scanned so far and will have two of the others done as and when I can afford to pay for it. Rebel has been scanned but his breeder is not alive to know of his results. Bubbles breeder was sent a copy of all her test results and I will of course show similar consideration for the breeders of the further two even they are unlikely to be bred from. There is little point in scanning Holly as she already has a deformed front paw and dry eye/curly coat syndrome. She has now been spayed. Neither her breeder nor the owner of the stud have shown much, if any, interest in either her condition or treatment, so future testing without symptoms seems superfluous.

If there's a case for ethical breeding then surely there has to be one for ethical pet ownership?

14th December 2009, 05:45 PM

Mindysmom

For me - all my dogs are neutered (well Rylie will be soon) so I wouldn't scan without symptoms. I'm of the opinion that anaesthetic is not risk free and I always weigh the risk/benefit anytime I make that choice for either myself or my dogs.

14th December 2009, 05:58 PM

WoodHaven

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soushiruiuma

Guinness will get scanned in a few years, and the results will be registered with OFA. That means anyone looking up Guinness' parents, or other relatives will be able to see at least one MRI result from a related dog. Good or bad, it will be available.

Looking through the heart results from Guinness pedigree has been such a help, MRI is the next step to making sure breeding is done for the right reasons.

I have a couple of my dogs CHIC'd and I don't recall their MRI's being placed online.

14th December 2009, 06:33 PM

Karlin

I also don't think OFA places scan information online...?

If people can get access to low cost scans and have dogs with pedigrees, particularly with some known show kennels in the 5 generation pedigree, I would like Mark absolutely encourage people to get their dogs scanned. This is HUGELY valuable to helping the whole breed -- especially if you have dog over age 5. The researchers badly, badly need info on older dogs as this is what helps them to understand progression. If you want to help the breed, scanning a registered dog will do 1000 times more than possibly any other single thing one could do (along with ONLY buying puppies from health-focused breeders that properly test).

In addition, a dog may have major syrinxes and be quietly tolerating pain that may not be picked up by owners. Many here have posted about how they had mistaken what must have been signs of pain for a shy dog, a little cute quirk, etc. If you haven;t scanned, you don;t know what your dog may be dealing with. In addition there is evidence -- and I have had this directly from both Geoff Skerritt and Clare Rusbridge -- that dogs with pre-syrinxes and small syrinxes can have progression slowed, halted or reversed if started on a CSF inhibitor like frusemide or cimetidine. Doing nothing because you don;t see any outward sign may mean progression that could have been halted is not stopped and the dog goes onto develop significant syrinxes.

I used to think that it was not important to scan asymptomatic dogs but due to the enormous value of scans from registered dogs, and due to the fact that a dog may be silently tolerating pain or may lose the chance to have progression slowed or stopped -- I absolutely believe in scanning if you have access to lower cost scans.

14th December 2009, 08:26 PM

Soushiruiuma

I could have sworn I found 1 MRI result on OFA's website. It wasn't a dog in Guinness' pedigree so I have no idea how to go about finding it again.

If they don't register those results we should see how to go about suggesting that they add it to their database.

14th December 2009, 09:25 PM

Nicki

This is a very tough one, but I do agree with Karlin that wherever possible we should be getting our Cavaliers scanned.

I think we all know enough to be going into scanning prepared that it may not be good news - and although that is hard to cope with, it does give our dogs the best chance of early treatment and a long life.

Perhaps if Teddy had been scanned earlier {I had to push my vet to book him in for a scan, although this was 3 1/2 years ago} and started treatment earlier - he had been symptomatic for a while - he would be better now. By the time he was scanned, he had several large and quite a few small syrinxes, which have worsened - he has been rescanned. The reports have all been sent to Sarah Blott at the AHT - as I do with every health test.

This is the best tool we have to ensure that the EBVs are going to be accurate - obviously show people only keep the best 1 or 2 puppies from a litter, and if only those are scanned, it will skew the results.

So I would encourage everyone to take advantage of health screening - even if possible attend shows as there is often free cardiologist heart testing, and reduced rate eye testing.

Low cost MRIs are maybe more difficult as the scheme was orginally set up for breeding dogs, but if carers are prepared to scan their {asymptomatic} dogs, then I hope this can be available. I believe Mark is organising the next date for March 2010? Perhaps our US members can start helping their breeders to pressurise for low cost schemes?

Low cost {mini} scans are not suitable for symptomatic dogs, as has been discussed at length before...

14th December 2009, 09:41 PM

MARK MARSHALL

Symptomatic Cavaliers.............................

Nicki,

I personally will never accept that a dog has SM until the MRI scan shows me a Syrinx !

I spoke to GS last week and the question of bad ears and CM was mentioned.

CM will cause severe pain and Ears similarly can cause severe discomfort. (I do of course accept that you already know this.)

Consequently I say, dont think your dog has SM until it is confirmed and how can medicine be administered if the cause is not 100% confirmed ?

Yet another reason to have a scan.

Indeed, when we went to 'Stone Lion', the form specifically asked for the behaviour of the dog and asked for all symptoms to be listed.

The next 'bus' is scheduled for 18th MARCH 2010.

Mark Marshall.

14th December 2009, 10:00 PM

Karlin

Pain from CM alone is fairly rare, though -- but when it is the cause, I really don't think one can draw any real difference between the implications of having SM or CM. Indeed many of the US neurologists do not use the terms SM and CM, they use the term COMS to indicate a syndrome including BOTH as both can be a cause of pain. Having the addition of syrinxes can make the problem worse, definitely, but I think it is perhaps a bit self-deluding to believe a symtpomatic dog with 'only' CM should be seen as somehow that much better or preferable -- the issue of pain remains the same and the choices are the same: (same) medications or (same) surgery. Fortunately for the breed -- perhaps because of the way dogs walk with their heads horizontal, who knows -- dogs with CM don't have anything like the occurence of pain with CM alone that humans do. Most humans get severe pain from their CM alone and sometimes have the misfortune to then get syrinxes, SM, as a secondary problem.

Nicki is of course right to remind that a mini scan for breeder purposes is not really adequate for ongoing care of a symptomatic dog.

Medications can be trialled if someone does not want to have or cannot manage a n MRI. It isn;t ideal but PSOM doesn't respond to gabapantin or frusemide as far as I understand so if pain lessens with these medications it is an indication you are dealing with CM and/or SM. PSOM can cause some but not nearly the same array of symptoms and I understand does NOT cause air scratching so if you are seeing that, you re very unlikely to be seeing problems from PSOM. As far as I know CM/SM is the only set of conditions that cause air scratching. An MRI is as they say the 'gold standard' but it is beyond the reach of some people and their dog can be pretty well diagnosed on the basis of clinical symptoms and treated.

14th December 2009, 10:31 PM

Margaret C

This is, I think, another of the decisions that can only be made by the owner...........

The benefits that this information can give for the future of the breed through the EBV programme are immeasurable.

The information it can give to the breeder ( who should always be informed of the result, whether good or bad ) will be invaluable to their breeding programme.

It will benefit the dog if there are early signs of SM that have been missed, medication can change a quiet, unsociable, couch potato into a lively relaxed little dog.

I do not think that any cavalier owner who knows about SM can ever completely dismiss the worry from their mind.
That is a criticism that has been levelled at the film PDE and those of us who took part, but we did not invent SM, it was already there and spreading rapidly. Cavalier owners needed to know there was good reason to be concerned.

It may help some owners to know scan results and have vague worries confirmed or proved wrong. Others may not be able to cope with a positive diagnosis and their pleasure in their pet will be submerged completely in their dread of the eventual outcome.

Like the decision to have SM surgery, or the decision when to euthanise, I feel that this is a decision that the owner must feel able to make according to their own comfort zone.
They are not breeders, they do not carry the responsibility in the same way as all breeders do, but if they feel able to help in a partnership of breeders and owners, then what a wonderful gesture that will be.