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Topic: pls dont nuke me, I have a question (Read 6934 times)

trentend: The documentation is in Wiki format for a reason - if you'd like to contribute for it, that would be great for everyone - go for it.

I am aware. I will address it. As I explained, I haven't started a linuxmce install yet, and I'm not going to add any information that I can't verify first hand. I've been following the project since before it sprung out of pluto. I've spent many hundreds of hours researching both pluto and linuxmce, in detail. Simply the documentation does not exist in any comprehensive sense. Until I have first hand experience any direct contribution that I might make is likely to be more misleading than helpful.

Still it continues to amaze me that this community seems more interested in antagonising potential users than encouraging them. The way users develop technical knowledge and become involved in development is a matter of diminishing returns....for every hundred who look, ten might use the system and one might contribute back. Of those ones who contribute back some become deeply involved and make a substantial difference.

The more of those looking that you turn away, the less chance that you'll end up with people giving substantially back to the community efforts.

You seem to misunderstand the source of my frustration, it's very simple. I am very tired of this growing attitude that i've seen in the last 10 years, where users of free software increasingly think of themselves as customers, entitled to some form of support.

You may want to step back before you criticise my understanding of free software communities, I've been in this world for almost two decades in various capacities.

There is only so much that I can do as a developer, and I've had my hand in virtually every single aspect of this community, from having my hands in virtually all of the stack, to helping out with support, and documentation, as well as acting on behalf of public relations. If you notice, my reactions are all reacting to the same thing, this festering sense of entitlement.

I understand your frustration, but it is destined to only give you stress.

If you do not wish to constructively address an issue raised by someone with less knowledge than you, and I'm accepting that might well be everyone, and that all such questions may be quite stupid, then it is surely better to say nothing than to antagonise them?

I know that I, for one, am appreciative of what other people do to enable exciting solutions ion the modern computing world. I know that if I want to see projects grow I have a responsibility to contribute as much as i am able. This doesn't preclude the possibility that I might hold opinions with which you disagree, and have questions that you may consider stupid.

Let me ask you a specific question regarding the development of 8.10. Given that it isn't released yet, and that security support for Kubuntu 8.10 ends in 7 months, and the advice is to allow the core to perform the routing and dchp for the whole network, will this leave internet facing installations of linuxmce open to potential security issues?

I object to that as well. On what grounds do you identify me as a troll? I am attempting to be constructive and address specific issues that I consider to be important, and doing a lot of work, both on my own and with help from those minded on here to provide it, to move towards an installation for my home automation system using linuxmce. Are you saying that I'm not welcome?

We expect that the actual release lifetime of 0810 to be very short, as we will immediately start to push to 0910 after its release. The system is designed to be upgraded upstream, so your concerns in this context are completely unwarranted.

We do have other security issues that we need to address, but these will be addressed with time, and we try to keep the critical parts of the system secure, while we harden other bits, while working on other features, keep in mind, this is a massive system, there hasn't been anything this big before, and there are only a few of us actively working on it.

Okay, so if I am to understand that it would seem that the operation of linuxmce is not intrinsically linked with the specifics of the version (otherwise upgrading upstream would likely break things). Is it possible to make linuxmce version independent (so that I might choose a LTS for long term stability, someone else might choose 9.10 for latest hardware support)?

Will 8.10 be out of its security update support lifetime, before 9.10 is ready for showtime? Might 10.4 (I believe an LTS release) be a better target candidate?

Version independence is unlikely. Too much maintenance for too few developers. The LinuxMCE team is not the size of the Ubuntu team - this project really can only support a single version at a time realistically.

Given the fact that a number of things change internally from distribution version to version, this is not possible. We have to often adjust our plumbing to match.

To give an example,

the Hardware Abstraction Layer daemon (hald) changed from 0710 to 0810 in several ways. This essentially broke plug and play for virtually every hardware device. We had to modify our HAL device and serial port scripts to handle the changes.

Another example, is that xorg went through massive changes between 0710 and 0810, in relation to how human interface devices (HID) and video output devices were implemented, because this system was ahead of the curve in many ways when it started, a lot of infrastructure was put in place to handle things like PnP, network configuration, input device management, etc... Now that these functions are more and more being taken care of by distribution services, we are trying to peel them back, to make them more neutral. I hope that eventually the distribution WON'T matter, but do keep in mind that we are trying to make this an appliance, and we have to be slaves to many other projects and their development tracks. There are many things beyond our control, and myself, I have at least 5 different codebases in my head at this moment for this project alone, and I need to know more in order to fix some bugs that we experience.

I think you are being way too cautious with things like the security updates, etc.

Okay, that seems reasonable......and for me makes it seem a better bet to focus on LTS versions for support only.

Get the LTS versions stable and secure, and allow for longer development time between releases. Then those of us who have an interest in supporting hardware not supported within those releases would need to develop them and contribute back to the project - it would also allow for longer periods to establish better documentation, and more resources to assist would be developers in contributing hardware updates between releases....which in turn would make the development cycle for the next LTS less onerous.

I understand that you have your own reasons for targetting 9.10 after 8.10, but rather I urge you to consider going for 10.4, and only further LTS releases, in the future. That extra stability, and longer development cycles, are better suited for a project with large complex code bases, and small numbers of skilled developers. Instead of constantly chasing your tail, resulting in the frustration that you currently feel, it would be more conducive to developing documentation, encouraging developers, and consequently better community contribution.

The way you describe your involvement with the project currently it's unsustainable.

I've seen this topic raised many times, by Thom and others. It's an interesting argument in which I can see both sides. Devs I'm sure feel under appreciated and somewhat alone in their efforts as they see dozens of 'regular' people utilizing their hard work and in some cases criticizing it.

On the other end you have users that most likely feel initially overwhelmed with the complexity of a system they barely understand and feel like they can't or shouldn't ask questions for fear of being chastised. To me, the fact that the original poster's title is "pls dont nuke me, I have a question" speaks volumes about how the average user feels about this forum and it's a shame.

From the perspective of a technically computer savvy person, yet not savvy with Linux or Programming at all, I can tell you this; I'm attempting to learn about the guts of LMCE while simultaneously trying to learn how to program so that when I am able to contribute it's not horrible code to be made fun of. I have already contributed a little with a couple of wiki's and trying to help out others, but it's not the big dev help we need.

So, what's the hold up? As I've said before, LMCE's boon is also it's bane. It's a HUGE, COMPLEX system. For my part, I simply had no idea where to start. I don't have a solid understanding of Linux let alone the complexity LMCE adds to it so I had to start at the bassist of levels and it's very slow going (I, like everyone here, can only work on it in my spare time). The main issue is the 'where to start'. If we had available to us some sort of specific overview of the mechanics of LMCE it would go a long way toward inciting users to 'dig in'.

An example of this is the Video Looping (http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Video_Playlist_-_Enable_Looping) article I added. 90% of the time I spent trying to make that work was spent just trying to find out what part of the software was responsible for the playing of video. A forum post had some suggestions that didn't work, IRC was helpful in terms of the mechanics of building a dev environment, compiling code, etc., but no one knew definitively where to look for looping video. That part was pure trial and error on my part. The process was literally one of me staring at the dev files and opening anything that looked like it dealt with video then searching the file for anything that looked like it might pertain to looping, eventually stumbling on the xine file in the article. I'm sure everyone will agree that if that were the process necessary for any dev improvement even the most staunch supporters would become discouraged.

So, what's the point to all that rambling? The people that 'know' need to help the people that don't understand the system. If there were more information about the construction and interaction of the different systems in LMCE, I think more people would be inclined to 'dig in'. I'm not talking about setup help, I'm talking about dev information, i.e. What exactly is DCE and how do the different subsystems interact with it? When someone plays a movie, what systems are engaged, in what order do they engage?

I think if we as potential contributors had more information on the workings of the system we'd have an idea of where to start and where to start is often the most difficult part of any undertaking.

Okay, that seems reasonable......and for me makes it seem a better bet to focus on LTS versions for support only.

Get the LTS versions stable and secure, and allow for longer development time between releases. Then those of us who have an interest in supporting hardware not supported within those releases would need to develop them and contribute back to the project - it would also allow for longer periods to establish better documentation, and more resources to assist would be developers in contributing hardware updates between releases....which in turn would make the development cycle for the next LTS less onerous.

I understand that you have your own reasons for targetting 9.10 after 8.10, but rather I urge you to consider going for 10.4, and only further LTS releases, in the future. That extra stability, and longer development cycles, are better suited for a project with large complex code bases, and small numbers of skilled developers. Instead of constantly chasing your tail, resulting in the frustration that you currently feel, it would be more conducive to developing documentation, encouraging developers, and consequently better community contribution.

The way you describe your involvement with the project currently it's unsustainable.

There's nothing stopping you from grabbing the source and doing just that. Should be a piece of cake for an expert on "how open source projects grow and evolve" like you. Unless you're just to busy flapping your jaws in here of course...

There's nothing stopping you from grabbing the source and doing just that. Should be a piece of cake for an expert on "how open source projects grow and evolve" like you. Unless you're just to busy flapping your jaws in here of course...

It's attitudes like this that make me think that I'm wasting my time here. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that, and it's a real shame given the spectacular ability of the system that has been developed from its roots in pluto. With the mindset of the influential people on the project where it is, it is destined to disappointment and hardship. The statement you have made is nothing but mean, vindictive, and unnecessary. If you had analysed what I had suggested it was a way to reduce individual workload, not a request for more for nothing.

I do very little flapping of my jaws here. Less than some of you who are so busy that you only have time to abuse people interested in your work, rather than engage in a constructive dialogue - however misguided inexperienced people might be.

I'm happy to say nothing more. If the responses that I get here, and I observe other people getting elsewhere on these forums, are representative of the leadership and direction of the project I'm happy not to entrust the operation of my home to it.

To me, the fact that the original poster's title is "pls dont nuke me, I have a question" speaks volumes about how the average user feels about this forum and it's a shame.

err, wrong. I question the intentions of the initial poster. Starting a topic that way is not the best introduction. See, many ppl here get help and answers to their questions without "getting nuked". Follow the netiquette, do some effort on your own and ask serious questions. Plenty of people here even spoon-feed newbies. How do you think you are qualified to judge the "average user feels"? Just because a few people try to start flame wars - like in every other forum - it would be foolish to say people fear to ask questions. Look how many answers are provided _every day_, without anybody fearing "to get nuked".

The answer was given, we've considered LTS plenty of times, we will reconsider in the future. trentend was trying hard to drive this thread into an off-topic flame war after we've explained the facts from our side.

To me, the fact that the original poster's title is "pls dont nuke me, I have a question" speaks volumes about how the average user feels about this forum and it's a shame.

err, wrong. I question the intentions of the initial poster. Starting a topic that way is not the best introduction. See, many ppl here get help and answers to their questions without "getting nuked". Follow the netiquette, do some effort on your own and ask serious questions. Plenty of people here even spoon-feed newbies. How do you think you are qualified to judge the "average user feels"? Just because a few people try to start flame wars - like in every other forum - it would be foolish to say people fear to ask questions. Look how many answers are provided _every day_, without anybody fearing "to get nuked".

The answer was given, we've considered LTS plenty of times, we will reconsider in the future. trentend was trying hard to drive this thread into an off-topic flame war after we've explained the facts from our side.

Hari

I think I have to disagree. Yes, a great many people get help in these forums, myself included. But, even if the ratio of helpful vs. disparaging replies is 50:1, the one will and does discourage posters and incite users to say things like "don't nuke me". I'm willing to bet I could search these forums and link at least 20 posts with ease in which the poster was addressed with sarcasm, insults and/or hostility in some form, including this one. You have to be honest, I'm not the only person ever to make this observation.

Again, as I stated in my original reply, I see both sides of this situation. But I do feel like the few people that are entertaining the idea of contributing might be discouraged by the minority of posts that are met with hostility.

Also, after re-reading this entire thread, I don't really see where trentend tried to "drive this thread into an off-topic flame war". It seems to me that he responded to replies with reasonable suggestions/questions. It may be that he isn't well enough versed in the project to fully understand it's limitations, but that's why people ask questions isn't it?

The answer was given, we've considered LTS plenty of times, we will reconsider in the future. trentend was trying hard to drive this thread into an off-topic flame war after we've explained the facts from our side.

[..]Also, after re-reading this entire thread, I don't really see where the OP tried to "drive this thread into an off-topic flame war".

Noone accused the OP of anything. The OP has been quiet for a while now, after his question had been answered. That could have been the end of the story.