System Guide update at your request

You guys ask for it, and we deliver. Once again, the Budget Box, the Hot Rod, and the God Box return to provide three tiers of computing goodness. Lots of new products from Intel, AMD, Nvidia, Seagate, and others are coming out this fall, and things look exciting! This month, the System Guide largely holds the line as we evaluate up and coming products in the motherboard, video card, and storage areas for the next update (aka., the holiday wish list which you can expect about a month from now), which will include the return of the God Box For Mortals. Hey, goin' crazy was fun, but we recognize that a less ridiculous God Box is more useful for the majority of our readers.

quote:The God Box represents what the Ars folk would buy if money were no obstacle, and x86 was still the platform du jour.

A reasonable limitation, it would complicate things too much to consider all the various platforms out there, plus Ars mainly focuses on PC/Mac/desktop kinda stuff. And when you get into the big boy stuff the $ky is the limit and it would rob the 'system guide' of any value.

But in reality is x86 ever an appropriate choice at a $15K+ price point? The God box doesn't seem exessive to me, just foolish. After all that money is spent you're still stuck with just a PC. What kind of problems are you going to tackle with such a machine that wouldn't just highlight the short commings of x86 and the associated hardware? A SUN or SGI machine may not be as fast in certain regards but they're decatheletes not doped-up sprinters.

For my $15K+ I'd buy a used 4-processor deskside Onyx2 with 2-pipe x 2-channel InfiniteReality2/3 graphics and 8GB of memory. Not a gaming machine but one hard-working mother. Running Pro/ENGINEER this could happily support 4 real-time users or 2 greedy users each with 2 displays.

We considered lots of possible changes in this update, but things on the horizon made us get a little more conservative with this smaller update. We can smell nForce2 in the air, i845PE is indeed a reality for consumers today, serial ATA drives (Barracuda ATA V anyone?) are here...

But we couldn't just not update the System Guide in the meantime.

quote:But in reality is x86 ever an appropriate choice at a $15K+ price point? The God box doesn't seem exessive to me, just foolish

That is as it may be. Fortunately, the God Box with sanity returns next month.

Why don't you guys actually put these boxen together and run them through a battery of tests (who am I kidding?! Quake 3 will suffice!)..I would be willing to donate the first $ towards this endeavor. =p

are there no plasma screens that you can hook up to a computer or something? unless LCD magically got better overnight, the ones i still see at the store look like crap if you turn your head or look at any angle other than dead-on perpindicular. the god box deserves plasma screens.

also, since people complain about the god box being, well, a god box instead of a high-end box, maybe the system guides should expand a bit (stick in some high-end box between hot-rod and god). i think something called a god box should stay in the droolable-disposable-income-only category.

You guys simply have no imagination. Yes, the God Box is outrageous, but no one said you had to build your own system the same way. First of all, it's painfully obvious that most of the cost is in the dual LCDs and the huge RAID. Really, most people don't need .74 TB of storage. That's easy to rectify - either buy fewer drives or (I recommend) smaller ones. You could do worse than to just buy 3-5 of the 36 GB X15.3 and put them in RAID 5. Heck, if you're going to use that RAID for video or audio work instead of storage, get three of the 146 GB drives and do RAID 0. If you don't do Photoshop or Premiere, dump the second LCD. It's trivial to drop down to the 17" LCD as well, or just get the monitor from the Hot Rod.

In other words, stop yer bitchin'!

The fact that there is no ATA to be found in this system is a huge mark in its favor.

The Demigod Box represents what the Ars staff considers to be the current maximum yet still affordable performance. If you've got any suggestions or complaints, voice 'em in the OpenForum.

Motherboard:Tyan Tiger MPX S2466N-4MAMD Athlon MP's are the best price/performance SMP solutions. We have chosen Tiger MPX for most PCI slots (6 with integrated 3COM NIC), working USB and 2cpu.com also seems to like them. Some might want to consider Asus, MSI or Gigabyte solutions for overclocking and features.

Cost: $204.00 (10/30/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Processors:2xAthlon MP 2000+ (1.67GHz, 256KB, 266MHz, Socket A) - OEMThis is the sweet spot of AthlonMP price/performance. Some of you might consider MP 1600+ for value or MP 2100+ for performance. The tweakers might consider unlocking regular XPs and saving a few bucks.

Cost: $149.00 each $298.00 total (10/30/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

2x Thermalright SK-6 Heatsink with Delta fansGood cooling is important, as the Case and Cooling Fetish forum will remind you. Since 80mm coolers wonï¿½t fit on Tyan Tiger we have chosen Thermalright SK-6.

Cost: ~$40 each h/s $80 total (10/30/2002)

RAM:Corsair 512MB 266Mhz CAS 2.5 registeredYes, quality ram is important. Those wishing to use aggressive timings should run PC2700... Since there were reports that Tyan boards dislike Crucial we opt to for Corsair this time. We have chosen 512MB sticks for future expansion and some of you might want to add another stick already.

Cost: $183.00 (10/30/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Video:GeForce 4 Ti4400The extra speed and memory of the Ti4400 wins its place over the Ti4200 64MB. The ATI Radeon 9500 and 9700 merit serious consideration, expect a possible shake-up in the next update.

For video-lovers, other cards such as Radeon may be the video card of choice, and those who don't play post 2001 3D intensive games at all may look to the Matrox G550 for 2D graphics and dual-head love (or the Parhelia, if you have money to burn for triple-head...). Not all video card cooling fans are created equal, so keep in mind that some brands may be more quiet than others.

Cost: $192.64 (10/30/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Sound:Turtle Beach Santa CruzCreative's Audigy, Terratec's DMX 6fire, Turtle Beach's Santa Cruz, Hercules' Game Theatre XP, and others have livened the sound card arena in the last six months. The Terratec is the newest toy on the block, but the TBSC is a solid card and an excellent recommendation.

Cost: $62 (10/30/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Communications:USR 56K V.92 Performance Pro PCIThis is for those of you without high-speed access; a modem may be all you have in your area for internet access. We've had good luck with Creative Labs Modem Blasters, but they're getting hard to find, and USR's 5610B and 2977 are nice products that are hardware controller based (no Winmodems here!). Those who run multiple OS's may wish to use an external modem, as they're generally more driver-friendly: there's no such thing as a serial Winmodem!

Cost: $63.63 (10/30/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

NICOnboard integrated 3COM NICHome networking is almost a given today among computer enthusiasts. Plus, high-speed internet access almost always requires a NIC of some sort. Cost: $0.00 (10/30/2002)

Other Cards:

Adaptec 29160 SCSI CardWe'll run the boot drive (the 15K.3) and the optical drives off of this card, saving the other drives for the RAID controller. Cost: $187 (10/18/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Cost: $219 (10/28/02) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Western Digital WD2000JB 200GBStorage Review's current 7200rpm ATA drive favorite. Also consider the IBM Deskstar 120GXP as it is an excellent performer, despite many being skittish due to IBM's recent track record. Since we are going to have small SCSI boot drive we need lotï¿½s of ATA storage. Go to a larger or smaller drive or even RAID5, RAID10 or RAID 1 array if you need to.

Cost: $348 (10/28/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Optical Drives:Sanyo BP5 BURN-Proof SCSI 24x10x40 CD-R/RWSanyo is a maker of CD-RW drive mechanisms, so it's hard to go wrong with a CD-RW drive from them. Currently the only 24x CD-R writer available in SCSI flavors. 40X CAV digital audio extraction (DAE) and BURN-Proof make this the drive of choice. The 32X BP6 is mentioned in more than a few programs as a drive they've used, but it looks like vaporware for the time being.

Cost: $126 (10/28/2002) [Comparison shop for this item (Pricewatch)]

Pioneer DVD-305S 10X SCSIIf you have any plans of making direct copies of CD-ROMs, you need a second drive. We're sticking all-SCSI this time around, and the Pioneer is the best you can get. Beware of DAE issues when extracting full CDs in burst mode, but there is no other alternative whose performance can equal the DVD-305S in all areas: data DVD, data CD, and audio CD. So

Cost: $99 (10/28/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Case:Antec Performance Plus 1080AMGPersonal choice matters considerably here, but Antec's Performance-series (such as the SX630, SX1030, or equivalents such as the Directron D-30) and now Performance Plus reign among the more popular choices available today. For larger cases, try Addtronics' 7896A, and for more exotic ones there's the Lite-On FS020, Chenbro Genie, Lian-Li PC60 and Coolermaster ATC-201SX. This is one area where the lines are fairly definite between size/capacity and price, unfortunately. An In-Win S508, Antec SX630, CasEdge LX734A, and other quality mid-towers run around $60 with the required quality 300watt power supply that the Hot Rod requires, while their larger cousins with more drive bays run around $100. The extra money for the quiet 430watt power supply in the 1080AMG is worth it, and beige is available too in the Performance Plus 1080.

Cost: $97 (10/28/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Monitor:2ï¿½NEC MultiSync FP912SB (Black Cabinet)Audio/Visual forum members recommend lots of 19" monitors, and the new NEC-Mitsubishi Superbright series was one of their choices. We decided to go with dual ï¿½19 for maximum real estate and chosen black cabinet for coolness factor. If you're on a budget but still want 19" of real estate, try the Samsung 955DF, which is under $200. 19" is a nice step up from 17" for gaming and just general use--2" more real estate is extremely easy to get used to! Some of you might want to consider single 21ï¿½ or single LCD or dual 21ï¿½ or even dual LCDs

Cost: $~300 each ~$600 total (10/30/2002)

Speakers:Logitech Z-560 4.1Listen to different speakers to see what's out there. Boston Acoustic's BA790, Monsoon MH-502, and others are all very good 2.1 systems for under $100. We still like Altec Lansing ATP-3's too, but demand for a 4.1 in the Hot Rod makes our recommendation the Logitech Z-560's, which are excellent speakers.

Cost: $118.96 (10/30/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Mouse:MX700 Cordless Optical Mouse w/ Rapid Charge Base StationBetter scanning, cordless with recharge station. All you ever wanted in a mouse. Some of you might opt for cheaper Logitech solutions for price or for Microsoft, Genius or Dexxa for personal preferences. Since mice stay with you for a long time we recommend spending slightly more on one.

Cost: $61.00 (10/30/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Keyboard:Microsoft Natural Keyboard ProFight RSI with a keyboard that isn't totally out of whack, like its Natural Keyboard Elite predecessor. The built-in USB hub is useful too, and some like the extra buttons on top. If you prefer, regular 104-key keyboards are still good too. Older "click" models from IBM are favorites for many, while some of us prefer quiet units such as Dell's Quietkey. The HTPC and desktop realestate junkies might choose Logitech cordless desktop solution.

Cost: $29 (10/30/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Floppy:Teac 1.44MBA floppy drive is still a basic tool for system construction, especially for pesky new pieces of hardware which aren't supported by the bootable CD you're using. A Teac is a name brand we like, but in reality, a random pull from a vendor is likely to be a quality Sony, Teac, Mitsumi, or other unit.

Cost: $8.49 (10/30/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

We can recommend them all, because they'll all run well on this box (with the exceptions listed above). But you don't need all of these!

Windows 2000 Professional: It's the appropriate professional-level OS for the Demigod Box, considering Windows XP Professional's SCSI problems. Gaming support is good, but not as good as XP. If you don't need the power of 2000 Server, Windows 2000 Professional is the way to go.

Price: $104.99 (10/29/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Windows XP Professional: Windows 2000 with a lot more glitz and a few improvements. Gaming support is further improved over Windows 2000, and while some quirks due to the high level of feature integration remain, XP Professional is a choice many want to make. Be wary of SCSI performance issues in Windows XP, as mentioned by Storagereview's forums. That's why Windows 2000 is the first OS of choice for the Demigod Box in this installment.

Price: $132 (10/29/2002) [Comparison shop for this item] [Submit a review of this item]

Linux: Any computer enthusiast worth his salt boots more than one OS. Linux is a wonderful choice for the Hot Rod: powerful, cool, and cheap. Take your pick of distributions and go nuts! Slackware, Debian, Red Hat, Suse and Mandrake, try Linuxiso.org or Cheapbytes.com, or others.

Price: Free, or around $50 for a prepackaged distribution like RedHat's (10/29/2002)

FreeBSD: Probably better hardware support than other BSD's, which is important for us. Try FreeBSD.org or other sites such as BSDMall or FreeBSDMall to purchase FreeBSD, or FTP it from a site like FreeBSD.org's FTP...

Price: Free, or around $50 for a prepackaged distribution (10/29/2002)

I like the ungodly-huge box. It always makes me smile, because I actually had a professor when i was working in the math department that brought us $30k left of a grant and said "I need a computer before friday, when i have to return this (if not spent)." For reasons beyond my comprehension, he wanted PC hardware. So we went to Dell's site and built dual P3-Xeon's with raid-5 arrays, to the tune of about $12k apiece. Threw in two really nice sony 24" monitors (4:3 aspect ratio) to bring it up to $30k, and he got the rest of his grant money spent. (now his secretary uses one for Office and internet )

I can see where everyone is coming from, $16,000 for a pc that is a little better than a $1000 pc is just crazy. Maybe it could be the insane happy fun wacky god box and I personally think that a $3-5k god box provides a more useful hardware comparision point for most people that aren't ceo's of a major corporation, but perhaps I'm wrong and there are a lot of uber rich kids out there with too much money to waste, errr, spend...

Lot's of people already have monitors, keyboards, mice and speakers. Swapping of key components between combos when outlining custom solutions is also easier (using GodBox CPU/MoBo/RAM in HotRod or using HotRod storage in godbox for instance).

Yeah, it would be kinda cool to have an Ars System Configurator that would estimate the price of a box using the suggested components. So you'd hit checkboxes corresponding to certain parts and it'd go toward a total at the bottom of the page.

Perhaps there should be a mention in the video card sevtion that if you plan to run Linux, get an nVidia card. ATI while it can be hacked, just doesn't have the support on linux that Nvidia does. Try getting UT2K3 or a number of Transgaming Winex installs running under your ATI 9700 Pro card. Meanwhile, every nvidia card "just works" if you use nvidia's closed binary drivers.

quote:Originally posted by YaRness:so refresh rates would be a problem

Not likely. I have like maybe a 30ms pixel response time on my cheapo lcd, and I haven't noticed it ever. I don't specifically look for it, either, but that's because I tend to be too busy actually playing the game I think most monitors now have better than 30ms, but I haven't looked too carefully.

quote: Amusing story, I will admit. wink But wow, what a perfect example of the miserably stupid budget policies which seem particularly common in universities. I generally sympathize with educational institutions' complaints about funding, but stories like that can make it pretty difficult... frown

Actually I think it was a federal grant... not completely sure though. So perhaps bitching about tax dollars would be more appropriate... Although we did a lot of money-wasting of school funds too... (in the 11 months I was there, we replaced 90% of the computers, including a Sun lab, a linux lab, about 80 professor's Suns, and several staffer's PC's)

quote: Is the idea of building a Budget Box for about $800 really worth it these days considering what $800 will get you from somewhere like Dell?

And then in two years you have to spend another $X to get a new computer, whereas if you had built the box, you could just spend $(X/4) to upgrade it to whatever you need now. Building boxes, to me, is about the savings later when you don't need a new hard drive, but you want more RAM and a faster proc, or a new video card...

quote:Is the idea of building a Budget Box for about $800 really worth it these days considering what $800 will get you from somewhere like Dell?

As others have noted you're really missing the point, but $800 to Dell will get you perhaps a small gain in processor speed but inferior memory, inferior graphics, probably inferior sound, no Ethernet, CD-ROM instead of CD-RW, and a lesser monitor. To be fair, the Ars boxen include neither centralized support (given the intended audience and Dell's decline in that area, no particularly great loss) or an OS, productivity suite, or six months of Internet access--but if you're at Ars and considering building a box, you already have at least one of these that can be transferred to the new computer. Furthermore, many people use the system recommendations to upgrade piecemeal.

And this time next year you want to upgrade to 3.0GHz CPU and your board does not support it:- new boardalso your PSU and case don't support your new board- new case, new psuand since intel extreme graphics is not that extreme you'll want a Radeon 9500/9700/NV30 this time next year and you'll find you need a new psu which translates to:-new case, new mobo and new psu as well

Dells, IBMs, Compaqs and Siemens are great for large companies where they throw away/resell/donate computers every 2-3 years and get new ones and your grandmother but for enthusiast/homebuilder prebuilt or DIY is much better.

Depending on the the day of the week, and therefore the offers that Dell is offering, (in terms of free shipping, free upgrades to the monitor, video card, ram, optical drives, the various instant rebates and mailing rebates), Dell has some good deals, you just have to know when to order. I agree that you usually can't get exactly what you wanted in the way that you can if you build it yourself but buying from a company that's happy to undercut others does have advantages.