FUDU wrote:Well where we differ is in how this country approaches low skilled or unskilled workers. We don't need unskilled immigration right now, we need more of the best & brightest, regardless of where from.

Not true, we do need migrant workers and they need us. What they make here is way more than what they would make in Mexico. The one thing we could try to regulate would be putting a limit on remittances.

I think maybe you should try to explain exactly how "we need migrant workers", and also why we should give a shit that "they need us". Shouldn't the bottom line be we should be doing what is best for our country? If that coincides with what is good for Mexicans, then great. If not, tough shit.

They make machines that can pick grapes off of vines, shake apples from trees into nets and even ones that can pick strawberries....why in the fuck do we need migrant workers to pick lettuce and cabbage?

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus

Motherscratcher wrote:I think maybe you should try to explain exactly how "we need migrant workers", and also why we should give a shit that "they need us". Shouldn't the bottom line be we should be doing what is best for our country? If that coincides with what is good for Mexicans, then great. If not, tough shit.

I'm not saying we couldn't survive without them but like CDT already said, they work the jobs that none of us would want to and they do it while making dog shit.

And I understand that we should be doing whats best for our country but isn't America supposed to be the land of opportunity?

This is the open secret behind the black-and-white Holsteins, rolling hills and postcard images: Unable to attract local workers for the grueling job of milking cows and working the farm, Vermont, the nation's 14th-largest dairy state, props up its dairy industry with perhaps thousands of immigrant laborers, many of whom are in the U.S. illegally.

This is the open secret behind the black-and-white Holsteins, rolling hills and postcard images: Unable to attract local workers for the grueling job of milking cows and working the farm, Vermont, the nation's 14th-largest dairy state, props up its dairy industry with perhaps thousands of immigrant laborers, many of whom are in the U.S. illegally.

Of course they are. They are everywhere, working jobs where they pay taxes and help keep this economy running. Furniture from North Carolina? Build by Mexicans. Christmas trees? Same thing. Same with cleaning superstores, making food at Chipotle, and a whole host of other jobs that aren't being stolen, but created in order to provide cheap services for everyone in this country. If anyone wants some serious reading on this issue, Reason magazine had a great article a few years ago that is still completely relevant today.

J, I'll also dig up a link with some surprising numbers on just how many Americans do work in agg and in the fields. IIRC illegal aliens make up a small % of manual labor agg workers, and much less than 50% of crop pickers.

The other often repeated myth is how hard a worker a Latino/Mexican is, especially relative to the average American. Again hogwash, backed up by nothing more than years of wives tales and BS. Some of them are of course, no different than any individual in any culture. By default working in fields can be hard work, but that is usually all they can get, or other difficult service/manual labor oriented jobs (due to their lack of skills and education). But that doesn't equate to a superior worker.

You ever see a Hispanic union worker, no different than any other typical union worker.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:J, I'll also dig up a link with some surprising numbers on just how many Americans do work in agg and in the fields. IIRC illegal aliens make up a small % of manual labor agg workers, and much less than 50% of crop pickers.

The other often repeated myth is how hard a worker a Latino/Mexican is, especially relative to the average American. Again hogwash, backed up by nothing more than years of wives tales and BS. Some of them are of course, no different than any individual in any culture. By default working in fields can be hard work, but that is usually all they can get, or other difficult service/manual labor oriented jobs (due to their lack of skills and education). But that doesn't equate to a superior worker.

You ever see a Hispanic union worker, no different than any other typical union worker.

You know what else is "wives tales and BS"? That illegals commit more crimes, take advantage of ERs, and steal jobs that Americans otherwise would work. A telling tale in the story I linked is:

"The more expensive labor gets, the more practical it becomes to mechanize," says Dalton Yancey of the Florida Sugar Cane League. His own industry is in the process of shedding the last of 10,000 foreign cane-cutters, in part because the bureaucratic hassles of getting them into the country were becoming too much of a headache. Their work will be turned over to machines. That's the way much of U.S. agriculture is headed.

"Corn and all the feed grains, they can be done mechanically," Yancey notes. "Potatoes, carrots, radishes, red beets, too. Cotton. Pecans can be shaken out of trees, and so can almonds."

Of course, there are some things--mostly fruits, which have to maintain a pretty appearance for the consumer--that can be harvested only by hand. But Yancey doubts that those crops will ever be picked by Americans, either.

"I suppose there's some level of pay at which Americans would be willing to do that work," he says. "The problem is you could fly fruit in from Chile cheaper. I suspect that we'd just do away with those crops in the United States if we somehow lost access to immigrant labor."

To put it another way, immigrant farm workers don't take jobs from anyone. Many of them do work that, if they didn't exist, simply wouldn't be done, at least not in the United States. And agriculture is not the only sector of the economy where it happens.

Buying fruit from out of country in order to keep Mexicans from working our fields is the same as cutting off our noses to spite our faces. And I know you, FUDU, aren't like this, but there are plenty of racists (one or two in this thread, I suspect) who would rather import those fruits just to keep the dirty brown people out of our country.

Let's say, for arguments sake, that Illegals make up 30% of cheap ag labor, if you kick out that 30%, who do you replace them with? I'm no economic's major, but taking a guy who makes $5 an hour picking fruit and replacing him with a guy who makes $8 an hour is going to be passed onto the consumer, no?

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Let's say, for arguments sake, that Illegals make up 30% of cheap ag labor, if you kick out that 30%, who do you replace them with? I'm no economic's major, but taking a guy who makes $5 an hour picking fruit and replacing him with a guy who makes $8 an hour is going to be passed onto the consumer, no?

You're not a grammer's major either ;)

But yes. In the article I linked, 20% of the cost of food represents the cost of labor. Increasing the labor cost by 60% (in your example) would increase the cost of food by 12%. However, I doubt you'll find many American workers willing to go out in the fields for 10 hours a day even at the $8 an hour rate.

FUDU wrote:J, I'll also dig up a link with some surprising numbers on just how many Americans do work in agg and in the fields. IIRC illegal aliens make up a small % of manual labor agg workers, and much less than 50% of crop pickers.

The other often repeated myth is how hard a worker a Latino/Mexican is, especially relative to the average American. Again hogwash, backed up by nothing more than years of wives tales and BS. Some of them are of course, no different than any individual in any culture. By default working in fields can be hard work, but that is usually all they can get, or other difficult service/manual labor oriented jobs (due to their lack of skills and education). But that doesn't equate to a superior worker.

You ever see a Hispanic union worker, no different than any other typical union worker.

You know what else is "wives tales and BS"? That illegals commit more crimes, take advantage of ERs, and steal jobs that Americans otherwise would work. A telling tale in the story I linked is:

"The more expensive labor gets, the more practical it becomes to mechanize," says Dalton Yancey of the Florida Sugar Cane League. His own industry is in the process of shedding the last of 10,000 foreign cane-cutters, in part because the bureaucratic hassles of getting them into the country were becoming too much of a headache. Their work will be turned over to machines. That's the way much of U.S. agriculture is headed.

"Corn and all the feed grains, they can be done mechanically," Yancey notes. "Potatoes, carrots, radishes, red beets, too. Cotton. Pecans can be shaken out of trees, and so can almonds."

Of course, there are some things--mostly fruits, which have to maintain a pretty appearance for the consumer--that can be harvested only by hand. But Yancey doubts that those crops will ever be picked by Americans, either.

"I suppose there's some level of pay at which Americans would be willing to do that work," he says. "The problem is you could fly fruit in from Chile cheaper. I suspect that we'd just do away with those crops in the United States if we somehow lost access to immigrant labor."

To put it another way, immigrant farm workers don't take jobs from anyone. Many of them do work that, if they didn't exist, simply wouldn't be done, at least not in the United States. And agriculture is not the only sector of the economy where it happens.

Buying fruit from out of country in order to keep Mexicans from working our fields is the same as cutting off our noses to spite our faces. And I know you, FUDU, aren't like this, but there are plenty of racists (one or two in this thread, I suspect) who would rather import those fruits just to keep the dirty brown people out of our country.

Necessity is the spawn of innovation. The Bracero program proved that as well.

The point on crimes and the ER is debatable, but it isn't even so much the point of whether they commit more crimes, it is the point that they are here illegally (a crime in itself) and are often committing crimes. Crime is crime, if you can rid your country of criminals you do so, period.

Check out SoCal for a real life example of emergency rooms/hospitals, and then do the math on the average cost of a child birth in a hospital and the number of anchor babies born here each year. The bottom line is they get all of that for free the vast majority of the time, how does that help this country at all? In the wake of the recent HC reform debates, it doesn't.

This is the open secret behind the black-and-white Holsteins, rolling hills and postcard images: Unable to attract local workers for the grueling job of milking cows and working the farm, Vermont, the nation's 14th-largest dairy state, props up its dairy industry with perhaps thousands of immigrant laborers, many of whom are in the U.S. illegally.

Of course they are. They are everywhere, working jobs where they pay taxes and help keep this economy running. Furniture from North Carolina? Build by Mexicans. Christmas trees? Same thing. Same with cleaning superstores, making food at Chipotle, and a whole host of other jobs that aren't being stolen, but created in order to provide cheap services for everyone in this country. If anyone wants some serious reading on this issue, Reason magazine had a great article a few years ago that is still completely relevant today.

Did you just suggest Mexicans are making food at Chipotle? Yeah in the southwest and Florida probably. I go to Chipotle's at 2 locations in NEO very frequently (best food around - health wise) and I recall seeing one person that I would with out a doubt say is Mexican. But either way I am not sure what point you were making on that, other than maybe Chipotle would be attempting to hire Mexicans specifically?

Now mention an authentic Mexican restaurant, like the one down the street that just opened (Si Senors IIRC), then yeah of course, makes sense like an Italian place being owned and operated by.....Italians.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

I don't think i've ever seen a white, black, or asian face in there that wasn't a customer. El Vaquero is the same way, most of the cooks and bussers at Red Robin and Ruby Tuesdays are all Hispanic, and i'd be the dishwashers are too.

FUDU wrote:Did you just suggest Mexicans are making food at Chipotle? Yeah in the southwest and Florida probably. I go to Chipotle's at 2 locations in NEO very frequently (best food around - health wise) and I recall seeing one person that I would with out a doubt say is Mexican. But either way I am not sure what point you were making on that, other than maybe Chipotle would be attempting to hire Mexicans specifically?

Now mention an authentic Mexican restaurant, like the one down the street that just opened (Si Senors IIRC), then yeah of course, makes sense like an Italian place being owned and operated by.....Italians.

No, seriously, here in Akron I actually know illegals who work at Chipotle. Come down to the Highland Square location and look at the crew, both behind the counter and working in the prep area. Mostly illegals. Please don't call immigration on them, because they are paying taxes (helping maintain the welfare state), paying their rents (preventing foreclosures), and not committing crimes (except for the big federal one, which the states shouldn't be wasting their time enforcing anyway).

I don't think i've ever seen a white, black, or asian face in there that wasn't a customer. El Vaquero is the same way, most of the cooks and bussers at Red Robin and Ruby Tuesdays are all Hispanic, and i'd be the dishwashers are too.

Do you live in San Ysidro, sheesh?

Red Robin I've been to up here are the standard mix of white, black and latino. I see a share of Latinos working the so called menial service jobs sure, but not in such a disproportionate number that it can be viewed as a sign of anything to do with an issue like this.

Just sayin CDT.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

As an addendum, come to any Golden Corral in Akron. At least 50% of the kitchen staff is Hispanic, and I'd be stunned if all of their papers are in order. Still, they are paying taxes and keeping houses from being foreclosed upon by renting them. I imagine they also buy cars, pay cell phone bills, and all sorts of other little things that make up the economy.

FUDU wrote:Did you just suggest Mexicans are making food at Chipotle? Yeah in the southwest and Florida probably. I go to Chipotle's at 2 locations in NEO very frequently (best food around - health wise) and I recall seeing one person that I would with out a doubt say is Mexican. But either way I am not sure what point you were making on that, other than maybe Chipotle would be attempting to hire Mexicans specifically?

Now mention an authentic Mexican restaurant, like the one down the street that just opened (Si Senors IIRC), then yeah of course, makes sense like an Italian place being owned and operated by.....Italians.

No, seriously, here in Akron I actually know illegals who work at Chipotle. Come down to the Highland Square location and look at the crew, both behind the counter and working in the prep area. Mostly illegals. Please don't call immigration on them, because they are paying taxes (helping maintain the welfare state), paying their rents (preventing foreclosures), and not committing crimes (except for the big federal one, which the states shouldn't be wasting their time enforcing anyway).

To be honest with you J them paying taxes, living as you and I and not bothering anyone or committing other crimes, doesn't impress me. I won't be calling CIS but I am 100% in favor of them be punished by the law for being here illegally. Besides you and I both know the relevant authorities know about those people you mention, guaranteed. I have one good source and one eh so so source that has verified little to no action is taken in situations like this unless it leads to a bigger score for CIS. Sad but true.

JB again nailed it, we are intellectually dishonest in this country.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Did you just suggest Mexicans are making food at Chipotle? Yeah in the southwest and Florida probably. I go to Chipotle's at 2 locations in NEO very frequently (best food around - health wise) and I recall seeing one person that I would with out a doubt say is Mexican. But either way I am not sure what point you were making on that, other than maybe Chipotle would be attempting to hire Mexicans specifically?

Now mention an authentic Mexican restaurant, like the one down the street that just opened (Si Senors IIRC), then yeah of course, makes sense like an Italian place being owned and operated by.....Italians.

No, seriously, here in Akron I actually know illegals who work at Chipotle. Come down to the Highland Square location and look at the crew, both behind the counter and working in the prep area. Mostly illegals. Please don't call immigration on them, because they are paying taxes (helping maintain the welfare state), paying their rents (preventing foreclosures), and not committing crimes (except for the big federal one, which the states shouldn't be wasting their time enforcing anyway).

To be honest with you J them paying taxes, living as you and I and not bothering anyone or committing other crimes, doesn't impress me. I won't be calling CIS but I am 100% in favor of them be punished by the law for being here illegally. Besides you and I both know the relevant authorities know about those people you mention, guaranteed. I have one good source and one eh so so source that has verified little to no action is taken in situations like this unless it leads to a bigger score for CIS. Sad but true.

JB again nailed it, we are intellectually dishonest in this country.

So the only reason you have a problem with them is that they weren't born here, but had the misfortune to be born on the other side of an artificial line. Fair enough.

I'd be more pissed at their bathroom habits. Using napkins as ass-wipe and tossing said ass-wipe into a wastebasket instead of the toilet is rather distasteful. And that's how they roll.

FUDU wrote:Did you just suggest Mexicans are making food at Chipotle? Yeah in the southwest and Florida probably. I go to Chipotle's at 2 locations in NEO very frequently (best food around - health wise) and I recall seeing one person that I would with out a doubt say is Mexican. But either way I am not sure what point you were making on that, other than maybe Chipotle would be attempting to hire Mexicans specifically?

Now mention an authentic Mexican restaurant, like the one down the street that just opened (Si Senors IIRC), then yeah of course, makes sense like an Italian place being owned and operated by.....Italians.

No, seriously, here in Akron I actually know illegals who work at Chipotle. Come down to the Highland Square location and look at the crew, both behind the counter and working in the prep area. Mostly illegals. Please don't call immigration on them, because they are paying taxes (helping maintain the welfare state), paying their rents (preventing foreclosures), and not committing crimes (except for the big federal one, which the states shouldn't be wasting their time enforcing anyway).

To be honest with you J them paying taxes, living as you and I and not bothering anyone or committing other crimes, doesn't impress me. I won't be calling CIS but I am 100% in favor of them be punished by the law for being here illegally. Besides you and I both know the relevant authorities know about those people you mention, guaranteed. I have one good source and one eh so so source that has verified little to no action is taken in situations like this unless it leads to a bigger score for CIS. Sad but true.

JB again nailed it, we are intellectually dishonest in this country.

So the only reason you have a problem with them is that they weren't born here, but had the misfortune to be born on the other side of an artificial line. Fair enough.

I'd be more pissed at their bathroom habits. Using napkins as ass-wipe and tossing said ass-wipe into a wastebasket instead of the toilet is rather distasteful. And that's how they roll.

In the context of the times we live in, yes that is my biggest issue with illegal aliens, with assimilation coming in a close second, again that is a whole other side to this. But remember they had no control over where they were born as you and I had no control over where we were born, so again, their problems are not my problem.

In a Utopian world where the grass is always green, with blossoming flowers, bunny rabbits as far as the eye can see and everybody being able to speak every language known to man and my house made of gumdrops on lollipop lane then I could get down with the notion of the Kumbaya approach to world without borders, but we don't live in that world.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

jfiling wrote:So the only reason you have a problem with them is that they weren't born here, but had the misfortune to be born on the other side of an artificial line. Fair enough.

I'd be more pissed at their bathroom habits. Using napkins as ass-wipe and tossing said ass-wipe into a wastebasket instead of the toilet is rather distasteful. And that's how they roll.

In the context of the times we live in, yes that is my biggest issue with illegal aliens, with assimilation coming in a close second, again that is a whole other side to this. But remember they had no control over where they were born as you and I had no control over where we were born, so again, their problems are not my problem.

In a Utopian world where the grass is always green, with blossoming flowers, bunny rabbits as far as the eye can see and everybody being able to speak every language known to man and my house made of gumdrops on lollipop lane then I could get down with the notion of the Kumbaya approach to world without borders, but we don't live in that world.

No, that's too easy of a response to make without any sort of facts. "Assimilation" has been a codeword for "we don't like your type" for too long to let slide. And considering that out of 239 countries and dependencies listed below, the United States ranks 178th in population density, it's not like we don't have to room to take in as many people that want to come here for a long while.

What it really comes down to is this: Is the United States the "land of the free" as our national anthem proclaims, as well as the place welcoming "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" as I posted above, or are we xenophobic assholes willing to be complete hypocrites since we stole this land from the people who lived here long before Columbus ever made his first voyage.

Answer well, since the Mexicans coming over the border have a much better claim to the American continents than either you or I do.

I hired a guy that may or may not have been legal at the time, over a white guy none the less. He had more experience. Dude has been there a year and missed no days, comes in on his days off, and works hard.

jfiling wrote:Sure, and why not try to send them all to Liberia, like our great nation once did.

You don't have to deport them if you never let them in to begin with.

If you are keeping them out just because they are brown, that's discriminatory and against the law, as well as the spirit of the USA.

We had immigration quotas from non-white countries for years- mainly East Asia. Laws can be changed.

As for the "spirit of the USA" one could argue that the "spirit of the USA" lies in its religious and social tolerances, its personal freedoms, its republican form of government and its lavish living standards, among other things. One could further argue that you endanger all of those things by radically changing the demographic of the country.

That there are a few 'crackers' in the barrel is irrelevant. No one is agreeing to give them a pass...

The preponderance of evidence points to profiling as a necessity in both instances

All contrary opinions that imply racism of the poster are race bait

If we are not men who can discuss this most controversial of topics without slander then we are doomed for sure just as throwing up one's hands and saying nothing can be done only assures that nothing will be done

...and enuff with the they were here first bullshit whoever said it. The fuckers came from Spain. They speak Spanish, not Indian...unless you're saying they were here before the Apache, Navajho and other American Indian tribes...in which case this dumb old man would like to see a link

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus

I have read estimates of anywhere from 5 to 20 million illegals in the US. That's a huge number. No way that number of people will ever be forced to leave. We're talking years and years (decades) in the courts and hundreds of millions of $$$. The current residents will need to be offered some type of amnesty, squatter's rights, pardons, or something. Not saying I advocate this, just don't see how the courts will deport, en masse, 10 million people. It'll never happen. Maybe give them their own state. I volunteer Mississippi. That would kill the Old South once and for all. Or start another Civil War.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:...and enuff with the they were here first bullshit whoever said it. The fuckers came from Spain. They speak Spanish, not Indian...unless you're saying they were here before the Apache, Navajho and other American Indian tribes...in which case this dumb old man would like to see a link

You know, I was willing to put up with some of the other really stupid things you've said. But that comment takes the cake for dumbest thing I've ever fucking read on this site. I mean seriously, if there was an award for dumbest post ever on the internet, that would be in the running. You, sir, are a *GOOFY SUCH AND SUCH*.

*there may be an edit there to change something that may have been out of line*

Last edited by jfiling on Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

You know, I was willing to put up with some of the other really stupid things you've said.

Chicken, egg who the fuck cares? One thing for sure you're a melty little fuck

lofl at Purity Personified....... aka j-something-or-other

Who are you? The judge and jury of all things pure and righteous? Should I say amen now?

Look, I don't really give a shit about who settled where or when and it has nothing to do with the conversation or the problem at hand which was my fucking point just like I don't give a rats ass who settled Jerusalem first

That you Wikied something that makes you feel like a winner for the first time in your life is just...well....precious. Props to you and hope your mom takes you out for ice cream after your Cub Scout meeting

...and your reaction and racist comments just iced the cake I made. Thanks, moron. You're the first to break

So take yir pathetic school yard condemnations of me and shove it 'em up your fat ass you high strung punk with no answers

You know, I was willing to put up with some of the other really stupid things you've said.

Chicken, egg who the fuck cares? One thing for sure you're a melty little fuck

lofl at Purity Personified....... aka j-something-or-other

Who are you? The judge and jury of all things pure and righteous? Should I say amen now?

Look, I don't really give a shit about who settled where or when and it has nothing to do with the conversation or the problem at hand which was my fucking point just like I don't give a rats ass who settled Jerusalem first

That you Wikied something that makes you feel like a winner for the first time in your life is just...well....precious. Props to you and hope your mom takes you out for ice cream after your Cub Scout meeting

If you're too fucking dumb to figure it out and I piss you off so much, don't read my posts cuz I don't plan on quitting here anytime soon. Sucks, eh?

...and your reaction and racist comments just iced the cake I made. Thanks, moron. Want to play some poker?

Take yir pathetic school yard condemnations of me and shove it 'em up your fat ass you high strung punk

jfiling wrote:So the only reason you have a problem with them is that they weren't born here, but had the misfortune to be born on the other side of an artificial line. Fair enough.

I'd be more pissed at their bathroom habits. Using napkins as ass-wipe and tossing said ass-wipe into a wastebasket instead of the toilet is rather distasteful. And that's how they roll.

In the context of the times we live in, yes that is my biggest issue with illegal aliens, with assimilation coming in a close second, again that is a whole other side to this. But remember they had no control over where they were born as you and I had no control over where we were born, so again, their problems are not my problem.

In a Utopian world where the grass is always green, with blossoming flowers, bunny rabbits as far as the eye can see and everybody being able to speak every language known to man and my house made of gumdrops on lollipop lane then I could get down with the notion of the Kumbaya approach to world without borders, but we don't live in that world.

No, that's too easy of a response to make without any sort of facts. "Assimilation" has been a codeword for "we don't like your type" for too long to let slide. And considering that out of 239 countries and dependencies listed below, the United States ranks 178th in population density, it's not like we don't have to room to take in as many people that want to come here for a long while.

What it really comes down to is this: Is the United States the "land of the free" as our national anthem proclaims, as well as the place welcoming "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" as I posted above, or are we xenophobic assholes willing to be complete hypocrites since we stole this land from the people who lived here long before Columbus ever made his first voyage.

Answer well, since the Mexicans coming over the border have a much better claim to the American continents than either you or I do.

Sorry J but assimilation is a huge part of the issue of illegal immigration. Links really are not needed as every major news network shows an illegal alien rally every year and how they DEMAND their due rights and mock the U.S. flag and what it stands for. These are people that are decades removed from any history that this and their country share, history that you and I have no control over, nor should share blame for. It is the way of the world for our species.

Land of the free is not relevant to an individual entering a country illegally. We advocate freedom, but we do not ignore lawful societies, we are both (supposedly of course). Nobody is saying that any other person on the planet doesn't deserve freedom, but when it comes at the expense of others willing to earn it or at the expense of the others already residing in a destined location than I'm sorry but those potential illegal aliens need to get in line and/or fight for what we have in their own land.

As far as taking in as many people that want to come here, that is a bit of a point I think you misunderstand or simply don't understand. This is no different than a motel/hotel and their occupancy limits, hence no vacancy sings. Illegal immigration has reached the status of unsustainable in regards to our country's own problems right now. Illegal immigration is in fact a handout, the proof is in how we deal with it and how we do not require accountability in that regard.

Honestly J, you're a good guy, passionate about his beliefs no doubt (and concerned about his country), explain to me how allowing thousands of illegal alien child births at the U.S. tax payers expense makes any sense what so ever in 2010?

Also, you still have not answered my basic question from up thread, would you allow just anybody to enter your home (if you did I missed it)? I get the whole humanitarian and fellow man aspect, fine, but then why don't you put up their room and board and employ them, and let somebody like myself opt of of having to do so? B/C in the end, there is no getting around the fact that according to our U.S. code, people entering this country (or those aiding the entrance of people entering this country) through means other than a designated port of entry are in fact committing a crime against the United States.

No other country on the planet treats the unwelcome or unlawful entrants as well as the United States of America, illegal aliens in many cases are treated like kings in this country.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"