Okay. The church I was in nearly 51 years -- from birth -- made us think that the leaders (especially) and the members were perfect. Having received that from birth, and having been strongly taught that at home with punishment, I believed them for most of that nearly 51 years. I could look right at fault and not believe it, because their teaching was stronger than reality. I could look right at the most egregious of sins against other members, against myself, and not believe it; their teaching was stronger than my own eye witness!

An example: when I was @ 18, the married pastor caught me in a dark hall, held me, and kissed me like a teen aged boy; months later, I had asked him to marry us. The incident may as well have been forgotten; I could not face the reality of what he did, what he was, what I had hidden from his wife and Everyone Else! Including my new husband. It took years for this to make me sick, and when I began to understand, it Made Me So Sick.

One more example among many: No, no more are necessary.

So here's what I've been seeing over the years, once I began to believe what I saw:
Having been reared to think that G-d's people were perfect, when I caught wind of the Reformers' doctrine I nabbed onto it. For me, that explained everything: all those people were not perfect, but that did not condemn them to hell. They were just not perfect, and neither am I. So in my mind then, that gave all those people an excuse.

But the shock continues to be shocking! It shakes me to the core when I learn the sins of people. And while the Bible warns us against comparing ourselves to other believers, I do it. Most recently, in my capacity at work, a friend at the church where I work said some things that again shook me deeply.

What kind of people are we before the L-rd? These people I have dealt with over the years and today . . . me . . you? That G-d has anything to do with us at all amazes me.

I need to get off to work, but this brings up another question I will ask later, when I can.

Prayer Team

I'm sorry you had to suffer this. To a Christian bent on serving the Lord with all their heart, there is NO CONDEMNATION because they don't want to hold onto a sin and will seek forgiveness both of their victims and of God; but at the same time, those that choose not to serve the Lord with all their heart, there's no peace and they don't care, forcing others to wonder if they truly are God's, Mat 7:20-23. God will judge them as false Christians.

To a Christian bent on serving the Lord with all their heart, there is NO CONDEMNATION because they don't want to hold onto a sin and will seek forgiveness both of their victims and of God; but at the same time, those that choose not to serve the Lord with all their heart, there's no peace and they don't care, forcing others to wonder if they truly are God's, Mat 7:20-23. God will judge them as false Christians.

Paul the Apostle writing to Timothy was telling him about being careful whom he choose to teach or have a place of authority in the ministry. Some of man's sins are obvious and everyone knows about them, but others are more secret and will be exposed later. Those whose sins are evident should never be allowed to preach or teach the Word of God in the Church. Every ones beliefs are lived out as actions in their lives. In the same way those whose beliefs are correct their actions will be true and righteous. Showing forgiveness is a Godly trait.

1Ti 5:24 The sins of some men are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.
1Ti 5:25 So also good works are conspicuous, and even those that are not cannot remain hidden.

I named this thread "My Questioned Discussion #1. I won't need a #2, because this can contain my questions. They are related. Below are my questions at this point. According to your experience:

Do your find that you and/or your believing acquaintances have extreme sin problems you had not expected, or is my experience unique?

Do you assume that if they have such problems, they aren't, then, believers?

Do you find that those men who have extreme sin-problems have more extreme problems with sin than women?

Do you find that the women look more innocent because they are better at hiding things than are men?

Thank G-d, my husband and I are not dealing with this anymore, but there were some years awhile back when I told him to straighten things, or I was leaving, and I had everything set up to go. He knew I meant it and, in time, jumped through all the hoops I demanded. (See * below for the "second" question.)

I ask, not because of any freaky reason; I ask because I am dealing with real people with real problems. And it is somewhat new to me. I had No Clue that the people of G-d had these problems!

* Genesis 3:16 warns us women that we would try to usurp the man's authority over the wife. So the man, the head of the wife, claims to be a believer but refuses to live a holy life -- a life without dabbling in the same sins over and over. Then the woman tries to rein him in or gives up and just leads in the household as she thinks she must. How should this be received? How should it be handled, if you were to minister to these people? What Scriptures would you use? I admit that I am presently overwhelmed with this.

I named this thread "My Questioned Discussion #1. I won't need a #2, because this can contain my questions. They are related. Below are my questions at this point. According to your experience:

Do your find that you and/or your believing acquaintances have extreme sin problems you had not expected, or is my experience unique?

Do you assume that if they have such problems, they aren't, then, believers?

Do you find that those men who have extreme sin-problems have more extreme problems with sin than women?

Do you find that the women look more innocent because they are better at hiding things than are men?

Thank G-d, my husband and I are not dealing with this anymore, but there were some years awhile back when I told him to straighten things, or I was leaving, and I had everything set up to go. He knew I meant it and, in time, jumped through all the hoops I demanded. (See * below for the "second" question.)

I ask, not because of any freaky reason; I ask because I am dealing with real people with real problems. And it is somewhat new to me. I had No Clue that the people of G-d had these problems!

* Genesis 3:16 warns us women that we would try to usurp the man's authority over the wife. So the man, the head of the wife, claims to be a believer but refuses to live a holy life -- a life without dabbling in the same sins over and over. Then the woman tries to rein him in or gives up and just leads in the household as she thinks she must. How should this be received? How should it be handled, if you were to minister to these people? What Scriptures would you use? I admit that I am presently overwhelmed with this.

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I only speaking my opinion here.
When God was planning for man's salvation, he had a very unique problem. If the Lord just restored man back to his former position like in the garden, as soon as man would sin again, he would die again. Adam, and Eve both knew it was wrong to transgress the command of God yet they did it anyway. They literally killed themselves. It is the same thing people do who put a gun to their head and pull the trigger. To prevent this from happening again, God sent his Son to live a Holy pure life without ever sinning, and then die on the cross for mans sins. Then he took that exact same Spirit that was in Jesus Christ and he places it in man. This man can never sin, and he can never die. He is our new life. It is no longer I that liveth but Christ liveth in us.
Once someone comes to Jesus for salvation it takes time for them to realise what has happened to them. They will stumble and fall many times until they learn to let this new life in them to take control over their lives. Some are further along than others, some have never even started yet because bad teaching. Those who belong to Christ can not continue living in sin continuously because God,s seed remains in them. They will take no pleasure in evil, wicked things because their very nature has been changed. There will be those who only profess to know Christ but do not. These you should be able to spot for you will know them by their fruits, and the remorse they have for their sins.

1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

I only speaking my opinion here.
When God was planning for man's salvation, he had a very unique problem. If the Lord just restored man back to his former position like in the garden, as soon as man would sin again, he would die again. Adam, and Eve both knew it was wrong to transgress the command of God yet they did it anyway. They literally killed themselves. It is the same thing people do who put a gun to their head and pull the trigger. To prevent this from happening again, God sent his Son to live a Holy pure life without ever sinning, and then die on the cross for mans sins. Then he took that exact same Spirit that was in Jesus Christ and he places it in man. This man can never sin, and he can never die. He is our new life. It is no longer I that liveth but Christ liveth in us.
Once someone comes to Jesus for salvation it takes time for them to realise what has happened to them. They will stumble and fall many times until they learn to let this new life in them to take control over their lives. Some are further along than others, some have never even started yet because bad teaching. Those who belong to Christ can not continue living in sin continuously because God,s seed remains in them. They will take no pleasure in evil, wicked things because their very nature has been changed. There will be those who only profess to know Christ but do not. These you should be able to spot for you will know them by their fruits, and the remorse they have for their sins.

1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Thank you, CCW95A. I believe I agree with what you wrote.
I am living in dread of the next person who asks for counsel. I had no idea things were this bad. I am just hoping I never hear this kind of thing from where I worship, but the odds, based on other places of worship, are that I will!

When someone starts to gossip (not ask for counsel), I am so frightened of this stuff that I just immediately say, "I don't want to hear it." It's hard to say to a friend, but I need it. This stuff tears me up.

There seem to be so many reasons the Bible asks if there will be faith on the earth when He returns.

Thank you, CCW95A. I believe I agree with what you wrote.
I am living in dread of the next person who asks for counsel. I had no idea things were this bad. I am just hoping I never hear this kind of thing from where I worship, but the odds, based on other places of worship, are that I will!

When someone starts to gossip (not ask for counsel), I am so frightened of this stuff that I just immediately say, "I don't want to hear it." It's hard to say to a friend, but I need it. This stuff tears me up.

There seem to be so many reasons the Bible asks if there will be faith on the earth when He returns.

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I heard someone say once, "tell me no secrets, and I will tell you no lies, and we will not have anything to talk about"
Of course this not scripture. We need to be so enwrapped in the things of the Lord, that should be the only thing we want to talk about.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. What ever we have put in our heart is what will come out of our mouths.

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

Was asked for counsel at work again today. So relieved that it was a single lady without these issues!!

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I work for Home Depot part time, and I know what it is like for people to ask questions all day long. At first when I started working there by the end of the day, I thought to myself, if someone asks me one more question I am going to scream! I use to it now.
It seems the Lord has placed you in a place where he can use you to minister to others even though you might not want to.
Keeping your heart open to the Holy Spirit he will guide you and speak through you to where it will become fun and a blessing to you!

1.Do your find that you and/or your believing acquaintances have extreme sin problems you had not expected, or is my experience unique?
2. Do you assume that if they have such problems, they aren't, then, believers?
3. Do you find that those men who have extreme sin-problems have more extreme problems with sin than women?
4. Do you find that the women look more innocent because they are better at hiding things than are men?
5. Genesis 3:16 warns us women that we would try to usurp the man's authority over the wife. So the man, the head of the wife, claims to be a believer but refuses to live a holy life -- a life without dabbling in the same sins over and over. Then the woman tries to rein him in or gives up and just leads in the household as she thinks she must. How should this be received? How should it be handled, if you were to minister to these people? What Scriptures would you use? I admit that I am presently overwhelmed with this..

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1. Of course, the devil is after us all. Especially those in leadership roles.
2. No.
3. No.
4. Yes. Men are dumb in that department. I saw some stats on it. Apparently woman are better at spotting a cheating man.
5. You don't stay married to please yourself or your husband. You stay married to please God. Never divorce Mark 10:9. If they guy commits adultery he is leaving / divorcing you. That is the only time you can move on Matt 5:32. Signing documents is not divorce in God's books. As for submitting. Yes, a woman must submit to the husband and the husband love the wife. The absence of this is still not grounds for divorce. When there is one Christian there is always hope 1 Cor 7:14. It is not easy with an unbelieving partner, but his unbelief is no excuse for you not honoring God. Faithfulness and sticking to marriage honors God. God is your first love, not your husband.

What happened to you / what you did was evil. But not 10/10 evil. More 3/10. Continuing in mortal sin - 10/10. Once off mortal sin = 7-8/10. There may other problems his side like maybe his wife doesn't meet his needs. Either way he should have gone under discipline by the elders and not been allowed to preached until recovered.

As for you church. Every church needs qualified elders Acts 14:23. Does yours have?

1. Of course, the devil is after us all. Especially those in leadership roles.
2. No.
3. No.
4. Yes. Men are dumb in that department. I saw some stats on it. Apparently woman are better at spotting a cheating man.

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I cannot see men as "dumb," King. Based upon just my experience, I see most men as more innocent and women as more devious.

Writing as a woman born in the late '40s, we looked upon the world and found that men have all the advantages: they are preferred in school, pushed to succeed, encouraged toward the maths and sciences, etc. So we began early to fight for right to exist, succeed, and have the some advantages. As girls and as those who are treated as lesser human beings, we learned early that our competition is not only male peers but also other girls. Of course, from the vantage point of one born in the late '40s, our only initial dream was to marry, have children, rule over a continuous pile of laundry, and be the chief cook and bottle-washer. Then, we learned from certain of our teachers that we could have more. Okay. That was my perspective. Bleak!

Men (to women of my time) were basically handed everything they needed along with a bride who was beautiful and lauded for one day, then who became the household worker. They didn't have to learn to fight for what they wanted at that level, so they remained innocent with regard to social things. They just are who they are, with less social deviousness.

5. You don't stay married to please yourself or your husband. You stay married to please God. Never divorce Mark 10:9. If they guy commits adultery he is leaving / divorcing you. That is the only time you can move on Matt 5:32. Signing documents is not divorce in God's books. As for submitting. Yes, a woman must submit to the husband and the husband love the wife. The absence of this is still not grounds for divorce. When there is one Christian there is always hope 1 Cor 7:14. It is not easy with an unbelieving partner, but his unbelief is no excuse for you not honoring God. Faithfulness and sticking to marriage honors God. God is your first love, not your husband.

What happened to you / what you did was evil. But not 10/10 evil. More 3/10. Continuing in mortal sin - 10/10. Once off mortal sin = 7-8/10. There may other problems his side like maybe his wife doesn't meet his needs. Either way he should have gone under discipline by the elders and not been allowed to preached until recovered.

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Actually, on a human scale, his wife would have been high on the ladder. She, I learned, put up with a lot of stuff from him yet remained gracious, giving, sweet.

Do your find that you and/or your believing acquaintances have extreme sin problems you had not expected, or is my experience unique?

Do you assume that if they have such problems, they aren't, then, believers?

Do you find that those men who have extreme sin-problems have more extreme problems with sin than women?

Do you find that the women look more innocent because they are better at hiding things than are men?

Thank G-d, my husband and I are not dealing with this anymore, but there were some years awhile back when I told him to straighten things, or I was leaving, and I had everything set up to go. He knew I meant it and, in time, jumped through all the hoops I demanded. (See * below for the "second" question.)

I ask, not because of any freaky reason; I ask because I am dealing with real people with real problems. And it is somewhat new to me. I had No Clue that the people of G-d had these problems!

Genesis 3:16 warns us women that we would try to usurp the man's authority over the wife. So the man, the head of the wife, claims to be a believer but refuses to live a holy life -- a life without dabbling in the same sins over and over. Then the woman tries to rein him in or gives up and just leads in the household as she thinks she must.

Click to expand...

How should a woman who "takes over" be received?

How should it be handled, if you were to minister to these people?

What Scriptures would you use?

When my husband and I went through this some years ago, I did just decide that if we were going to have a spiritual leader in our home, it was up to me. Outside the home, I did my best not to show what was happening in our home, especially since he held spiritual positions in his church. It was a good thing that we went to different places of worship then for sure.

But when he stepped up to the plate and started being the man I had thought I married, I had major lessons to learn: to step back, to give up control, to encourage him to be the leader by loving him and being obvious with my "turning loose," bu saying to him, "You are the head of me, so . . . ."

One controlling thing I did tell him, until I felt like it got through, was, "I will not live in a home in which you are the head of the house, because that is not your place. But I sincerely want you to be the head of me, which is your biblical place."

So right now, one of the latest women I have counseled is in the place I had been in, and she is an angry, angry lady. She is confused and disgusted by his sin. She feels helpless. She has no hope.

Oh, it's just hard. It's just that I know there are many men of my acquaintance out there like this . . . .

Okay. The church I was in nearly 51 years -- from birth -- made us think that the leaders (especially) and the members were perfect. Having received that from birth, and having been strongly taught that at home with punishment, I believed them for most of that nearly 51 years. I could look right at fault and not believe it, because their teaching was stronger than reality. I could look right at the most egregious of sins against other members, against myself, and not believe it; their teaching was stronger than my own eye witness!

An example: when I was @ 18, the married pastor caught me in a dark hall, held me, and kissed me like a teen aged boy; months later, I had asked him to marry us. The incident may as well have been forgotten; I could not face the reality of what he did, what he was, what I had hidden from his wife and Everyone Else! Including my new husband. It took years for this to make me sick, and when I began to understand, it Made Me So Sick.

One more example among many: No, no more are necessary.

So here's what I've been seeing over the years, once I began to believe what I saw:
Having been reared to think that G-d's people were perfect, when I caught wind of the Reformers' doctrine I nabbed onto it. For me, that explained everything: all those people were not perfect, but that did not condemn them to hell. They were just not perfect, and neither am I. So in my mind then, that gave all those people an excuse.

But the shock continues to be shocking! It shakes me to the core when I learn the sins of people. And while the Bible warns us against comparing ourselves to other believers, I do it. Most recently, in my capacity at work, a friend at the church where I work said some things that again shook me deeply.

What kind of people are we before the L-rd? These people I have dealt with over the years and today . . . me . . you? That G-d has anything to do with us at all amazes me.

I need to get off to work, but this brings up another question I will ask later, when I can.

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Tez what an amazing testimony you have you know that, you should write a book, you are in such a great position to help others with your real life experiences, just wonderful. I have to say in relation to your first Pastor, there's no doubt in my mind the man was ever qualified by the Lord to oversee within the Bidy of Christ and sadly, you were another who were exposed to in-experienced and individuals lacking in character. The truth is Tez, is that as an overseer we are to cast out leaven from an assembly in any of it's forms due to it leavening the whole lump, in others words, affecting others like yourself. It simply shouldn't be happening, ungodly 'Christians' need to be challenged by their shepherd to ensure the well-being of their flock. Timothy and Paul wouldn't have failed in their responsiblity to look after their flock so we've no excuse.

Anyway back to a lighter point, you should write a book Tez!!! I keep calling you Tez is that okay?

Okay. The church I was in nearly 51 years -- from birth -- made us think that the leaders (especially) and the members were perfect. Having received that from birth, and having been strongly taught that at home with punishment, I believed them for most of that nearly 51 years. I could look right at fault and not believe it, because their teaching was stronger than reality. I could look right at the most egregious of sins against other members, against myself, and not believe it; their teaching was stronger than my own eye witness!

An example: when I was @ 18, the married pastor caught me in a dark hall, held me, and kissed me like a teen aged boy; months later, I had asked him to marry us. The incident may as well have been forgotten; I could not face the reality of what he did, what he was, what I had hidden from his wife and Everyone Else! Including my new husband. It took years for this to make me sick, and when I began to understand, it Made Me So Sick.

One more example among many: No, no more are necessary.

So here's what I've been seeing over the years, once I began to believe what I saw:
Having been reared to think that G-d's people were perfect, when I caught wind of the Reformers' doctrine I nabbed onto it. For me, that explained everything: all those people were not perfect, but that did not condemn them to hell. They were just not perfect, and neither am I. So in my mind then, that gave all those people an excuse.

But the shock continues to be shocking! It shakes me to the core when I learn the sins of people. And while the Bible warns us against comparing ourselves to other believers, I do it. Most recently, in my capacity at work, a friend at the church where I work said some things that again shook me deeply.

What kind of people are we before the L-rd? These people I have dealt with over the years and today . . . me . . you? That G-d has anything to do with us at all amazes me.

I need to get off to work, but this brings up another question I will ask later, when I can.

Tez what an amazing testimony you have you know that, you should write a book, you are in such a great position to help others with your real life experiences, just wonderful. I have to say in relation to your first Pastor, there's no doubt in my mind the man was ever qualified by the Lord to oversee within the Bidy of Christ and sadly, you were another who were exposed to in-experienced and individuals lacking in character. The truth is Tez, is that as an overseer we are to cast out leaven from an assembly in any of it's forms due to it leavening the whole lump, in others words, affecting others like yourself. It simply shouldn't be happening, ungodly 'Christians' need to be challenged by their shepherd to ensure the well-being of their flock. Timothy and Paul wouldn't have failed in their responsiblity to look after their flock so we've no excuse.

Anyway back to a lighter point, you should write a book Tez!!! I keep calling you Tez is that okay?

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Sure -- "Tez" or "Ezri" are both all right -- as is "TezriLi."

I feel really bad about not reporting that pastor and the others, but I had no background that gave me any idea that I could or that it was the right thing to do. I had learned a hard lesson when I told on a neighbor when I was eleven and was beaten for that. Therefore, I did not tell on my uncle or of the other man who came horribly close to raping me. How dare I? So when the pastors started their stuff, surely, I dared not tell. Father was a minister/pastor; Mother was a church-worker. I would have been beaten and annihilated for the rest of my life in the home. I would have lost my father, whom I loved. That's just the way it was in our home.

Write a book? I seriously don't know what good it would do -- there are so many hard-luck stories out here. The next book I want to see written, and I am not educated enough to do it, is a book of Boundaries for parents AND children. Some have told me to start writing it, but (1) I hope it is already out there and (2) as I wrote, I don't have the education.

Let me just say this...every legalist or every person that perceives themselves under the law, has hidden sin that they are unwilling to admit...many times these are sexual type lust and greed etc...The ONLY way to overcome the flesh, is to die to the law and come alive as being In Christ in the Spirit of His Grace... Every person that preaches or teaches the law in any part is in bondage to sin. "they cannot cease (rest) from sin!