Last edited by yostevo on April 8th, 2009, 11:39 am, edited 4 times in total.

December 15th, 2008, 1:03 pm

inheritedlionsfan

League MVP

Joined: January 13th, 2006, 4:18 amPosts: 3632Location: Maryland

He is a reason Dallas needs to keep losing. The higher the pick the better chance he is around. Though I expect him to go somewhere late in the top 10. There are going to be a LOT of good LBs in this draft and we need to land one of this with either our second first rounder or our second rounder. Curry, Spikes, RM, JL or Cushing one of them needs to be brought in.

December 15th, 2008, 2:32 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Aaron Curry= BEAST

yostevo wrote:

Probably a reach @ #1 at this point but the kid can flat out play. Vicious hitter and pursuer of the ball.

I like Curry a lot as well, but he's definitely not worth the #1 over all. Depending on how high we pick with 1B he might still be available, but IMO the draft isn't boom or bust based on this guy. I also like Brian Cushing from USC and Clint Sintim for Virginia. They're both pretty good sized LBs that have pretty good speed and tackle well.

Dannell Ellerbe is another LB that I like. The two aforementioned will probably play SSLB while Ellerbe will probably play MLB from what I understand... IMO MLB is a bigger position of need and a more important position on the defense, but I'd be happy with an upgrade at either spot. Brandon Spikes (MLB Flordia) is someone else that look REALLY good, IMO, but he might not come out this year. With Malaluga and Laurinitis both available Spikes might be better suited to stay put this year.

Our LB's are some of the worst in the league and definitely need to be upgraded. MLB Worrell Williams Cal. is someone that I wouldn't mind looking at later in the draft, or MLB Antonio Appleby Virg. (can you tell that I like Virginia's LBs?).

Clay Matthews USC is a DE/LB tweener that might be available later in the draft that we could use as a SSLB to beef up our LB corps.

I am so sick of reading that so and so is not worth the pick where we are drafting. In recent years, we have read that Mario Williams, Roy Williams - The Safety, Demarcus Ware, Albert Haynesworth, and a few other defensive guys were not worth our pick I would trade everyone except CJ that we have drafted in place of those guys FOR THOSE GUYS

AND I WAS ON RECORD AS WANTING EVERY ONE OF THOSE GUYS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE DRAFTS. INSTEAD WE SELECTED GUYS THAT "WERE WORTH THE PICK" FRIGGIN GAG ME I HEREBY BAN THE PHRASE NOT WORTH OUR PICK

December 16th, 2008, 1:36 am

kdsberman

League MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3485Location: Saginaw, MI

Thats probably true Billy Sims, because until we see how good they end up being in the NFL, we really dont know whos worth anything at all. Thats why we should draft based on need(except quarterback), not on whos worth it.

December 16th, 2008, 11:33 am

yostevo

Heisman Winner

Joined: March 28th, 2005, 7:50 pmPosts: 820Location: Burbs of De-town

His tackling, burst and ferocity remind me of Ray Lewis. I'd take even half of that guy as a #1 pick.

Offenses having to account for him could help to free up Sims who doesn't shed tacklers well.

December 16th, 2008, 11:55 am

wjb21ndtown

BillySims wrote:

I am so sick of reading that so and so is not worth the pick where we are drafting. In recent years, we have read that Mario Williams, Roy Williams - The Safety, Demarcus Ware, Albert Haynesworth, and a few other defensive guys were not worth our pick I would trade everyone except CJ that we have drafted in place of those guys FOR THOSE GUYS

AND I WAS ON RECORD AS WANTING EVERY ONE OF THOSE GUYS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE DRAFTS. INSTEAD WE SELECTED GUYS THAT "WERE WORTH THE PICK" FRIGGIN GAG ME I HEREBY BAN THE PHRASE NOT WORTH OUR PICK

I wanted Demarcus Ware over Mike Williams, and I think most people did as well.

Albert Haynesworth is a beast, but I wouldn't have taken him #1 overall. He had big time character issues, and they've reared their head in the NFL. He continues to be a problem and who knows what he'll end up like when it's all said and done.

Further, he and Roy Williams (FS) were in the same draft, so you couldn't have drafted both of them #1 overall. Still, I wouldn't have taken Roy Williams #1 overall either.

You can make a case for for Haynes Worth and Ware that they COULD have been taken #1 overall as DTs and DEs generate those types of contracts in FA. That said, you absolutely CANNOT make that case for Roy Williams. Safeties have been picked #1 overall in the past, but NOT in an era when the #1 overall pick garnishes a salary of $50 million dollars. You absolutely cannot pay your safety, MLB, SSLB, etc. $50million and field a decent team.

THAT is the arguement against positions that you CANNOT DRAFT #1 OVERALL.

It doesn't matter if someone turns out to be great at their respective position if they're going to be an over-paid anchor at the end of the day.

Additionally, everyone in the draft is a risk, and certain positions/players are bigger risks than others. Sure long-shots come in, but I wouldn't be taking a long-shot at #1 overall. Demarcus Ware had size issues that he overcame with hard work, Haynesworth had character issues that haven't totally killed his career, yet, but both of those guys were long-shots.

If I had the #1 pick in 2002 I would have drafted Julius Peppers. He and Mario Williams are TRUE #1 overall pick type of DEs. It doesn't matter if Peppers had injuries after he got drafted, if he didn't have serious injuries to consider before the draft than it is a non-issue. You can't go back with hindsight and THIS PLAYER SHOULD HAVE BEEN #1 OVERALL!!!! You have to look at what you had when the player was picked.

In THIS draft there isn't a DE worth the #1 overall pick, and you CANNOT pay a MLB or SSLB or FS, or SS $50million dollars when they are an unproven rookie. That has the potential to cripple your team for the next 3-5 years. LTs and QBs regularly make that kind of money anyhow. It's not as big of a deal when an LT busts because the team was likely going to pay their LT, regardless of who it was, that kind of salary anyhow. A team can sit on the LT for a couple of years, play him, and dump him or move him without that big of a loss (i.e. Gallary - and despite the fact that Oakland isn't that good, it's not because the Gallary pick killed that franchise). IF Orkapo has AMAZING numbers and rises into the top 5 I would be ok with reaching some to get him. That said, given the amount of QBs and LTs that will likely be drafted in the top 5 we would be much better suited to trade back.

Again, it's about draft position and player value.

December 16th, 2008, 1:09 pm

wjb21ndtown

kdsberman wrote:

Thats probably true Billy Sims, because until we see how good they end up being in the NFL, we really dont know whos worth anything at all. Thats why we should draft based on need(except quarterback), not on whos worth it.

That is not true at all... All players have a draft value, regardless as to how well they turn out in the NFL. Their "draft value" is their draft projection. If you absolutely know that Tom Brady is not going to be picked until the 6th round, you don't draft him before the 5th round.

Players value and their draft projection going into their draft has a lot to do with what position that player plays, what his physical gifts and possibilites of success are, what their propensity for being a flop is, what injury concerns they may have, and what system they came from and are going to. All of those things HAVE to be considered when making a selection. You can't pull out some crystal ball and look back from the future and see who played the best, and you don't simply draft a "need" because anyone can be a bust. You draft a player with a low amount of risk, with a high level of success, at a position of need that is a value where you're picking.

December 16th, 2008, 1:20 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3084

Wow wjb, I agree with everything you said.

December 16th, 2008, 2:17 pm

kdsberman

League MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3485Location: Saginaw, MI

wjb21ndtown wrote:

kdsberman wrote:

Thats probably true Billy Sims, because until we see how good they end up being in the NFL, we really dont know whos worth anything at all. Thats why we should draft based on need(except quarterback), not on whos worth it.

That is not true at all... All players have a draft value, regardless as to how well they turn out in the NFL. Their "draft value" is their draft projection. If you absolutely know that Tom Brady is not going to be picked until the 6th round, you don't draft him before the 5th round.

Players value and their draft projection going into their draft has a lot to do with what position that player plays, what his physical gifts and possibilites of success are, what their propensity for being a flop is, what injury concerns they may have, and what system they came from and are going to. All of those things HAVE to be considered when making a selection. You can't pull out some crystal ball and look back from the future and see who played the best, and you don't simply draft a "need" because anyone can be a bust. You draft a player with a low amount of risk, with a high level of success, at a position of need that is a value where you're picking.

Now im not saying "draft by need" and draft a safety or something, but im saying if we need a MLB really bad, and he looks like a really good player, why not take him? If not, you might find out later that he turned out to be very good and the guy you ended up taking ended up being average, well now you realized you picked a player based on projection rather than talent and need. If thats making any sense.

I dont know I guess. I just dont want to see us take a quarterback with our #1 because thats when good QB's are normally taken around.

December 16th, 2008, 11:33 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3084

But what isn't a need?

We NEED a MLB.

We NEED a safety.

We NEED a defensive tackle.

We NEED a left tackle.

We NEED a center.

...(repeat)

We DON'T need a #1 WR or a slot reciever. We don't need a #1 RB (though in this league you need two RBs so we still need another one). We don't need a kicker/punter (unless Hanson retires). And we don't need a WSLB.

Outside of that, we need everything, so why not just take the best projected player regardless of position?

December 17th, 2008, 12:27 am

dh86

Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

Joined: December 27th, 2006, 4:53 pmPosts: 693

Blueskies wrote:

But what isn't a need?

We NEED a MLB.

We NEED a safety.

We NEED a defensive tackle.

We NEED a left tackle.

We NEED a center.

...(repeat)

We DON'T need a #1 WR or a slot reciever. We don't need a #1 RB (though in this league you need two RBs so we still need another one). We don't need a kicker/punter (unless Hanson retires). And we don't need a WSLB.

Outside of that, we need everything, so why not just take the best projected player regardless of position?

Best projected player relative to what though? Still you have to account to the teams you have and the player to fit the hole. There is a fallacy when you are looking at pure 'talent'. In 2007, the Lions threw out the needs they had and looked at the best projected player. Lions took the WR in Calvin regardless of the fact that a Wide Receiver cannot fulfill their potential with inconsistency at the QB position. The Detroit Lions did not analyze their team and needs prior to making the Calvin Johnson draft pick. Now, Lions have inconsistency at the QB position and Calvin is playing well but he isnt making the impact to stop the Lions from being 28th in offense and winless. 1 #1 WR and 1 #1 WR out since then and the Lions have the same exact needs now as two years ago. If I made my draft board without regard of team needs and made it based on talent relative to position? Id lean towards taking Knowshon Moreno #1. Hes makes the Georgia offense goes, and a complete RB that should dominate in the NFL from Day 1. In the real world, I cannot make those draft picks. Win the trenches battles and 3rd round choices like Kevin Smith can be made into Pro Bowl RBs. Great teams are built by having a plan and sticking to your plan, not by making random draft choices.

December 17th, 2008, 4:10 am

Blueskies

QB Coach

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3084

Quote:

In 2007, the Lions threw out the needs they had and looked at the best projected player. Lions took the WR in Calvin regardless of the fact that a Wide Receiver cannot fulfill their potential with inconsistency at the QB position. The Detroit Lions did not analyze their team and needs prior to making the Calvin Johnson draft pick. Now, Lions have inconsistency at the QB position and Calvin is playing well but he isnt making the impact to stop the Lions from being 28th in offense and winless.

They wanted Gaines but they took Calvin because he was a-once-in-a-decade player and (people seem to forget this part) ALSO a need. They took Calvin BEFORE the emergence of McDonald. Prior to the 2007 NFL draft they only had two WRs--Furrey and Roy. They needed four in order to properly run the Martz offense. Granted, they could've found a 3rd WR later in the draft, but given Calvin's talent level, why not take him?

Now, he's not carrying the offense/team but he's only one man among 52 and this isn't the NBA--it's the NFL. To expect him to carry the team with no help is, frankly, ridiculous. He's putting up top five WR numbers playing with 5 different QBs who have no pass protection and little run game to fall back on. What else can you expect from him?

I know great teams have a plan and draft players that fit their "mold" but right now you can't view the Lions like that. This team is so utterly devoid of talent (and it shows they can't compete in any of their games). They need to bring in some impact players. QB, LT, DE, DT whatever...as long as the other team will actually fear and game plan around them.

December 17th, 2008, 2:41 pm

dh86

Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

Joined: December 27th, 2006, 4:53 pmPosts: 693

Blueskies wrote:

Quote:

In 2007, the Lions threw out the needs they had and looked at the best projected player. Lions took the WR in Calvin regardless of the fact that a Wide Receiver cannot fulfill their potential with inconsistency at the QB position. The Detroit Lions did not analyze their team and needs prior to making the Calvin Johnson draft pick. Now, Lions have inconsistency at the QB position and Calvin is playing well but he isnt making the impact to stop the Lions from being 28th in offense and winless.

They wanted Gaines but they took Calvin because he was a-once-in-a-decade player and (people seem to forget this part) ALSO a need. They took Calvin BEFORE the emergence of McDonald. Prior to the 2007 NFL draft they only had two WRs--Furrey and Roy. They needed four in order to properly run the Martz offense. Granted, they could've found a 3rd WR later in the draft, but given Calvin's talent level, why not take him?

Now, he's not carrying the offense/team but he's only one man among 52 and this isn't the NBA--it's the NFL. To expect him to carry the team with no help is, frankly, ridiculous. He's putting up top five WR numbers playing with 5 different QBs who have no pass protection and little run game to fall back on. What else can you expect from him?

I know great teams have a plan and draft players that fit their "mold" but right now you can't view the Lions like that. This team is so utterly devoid of talent (and it shows they can't compete in any of their games). They need to bring in some impact players. QB, LT, DE, DT whatever...as long as the other team will actually fear and game plan around them.

Once a decade type player? I know you didnt buy that too did you? Andre Johnson was drafted in 2003, Larry Fitzgerald was drafted in 2004. Calvin was drafted in 2007. Michael Crabtree in 2008. In 2007, Wide Receiver was our least needed position. Roy was coming off a Pro Bowl season, Furrey had 98 catches and we were going to sign McDonald either way. The only player in that draft that was even close to once a decade was Adrian Peterson. Running back was much more of a need than WR as well. Outside of kicker and punter, WR is actually the last position id select in the top 5 even if the Lions did have a need.