If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Too many variables in crime related shootings. Ballistic data acquiered in such investigations are deemed invalid, due to the fact that the majority of those involved are involved in their first, and last, only shooting incident.

there's too many variables in all shootings to say that a person can shoot well enough to compensate for them. you can land multiple COM hit and still not stike anything vital. figuring in the fact that training needs to preceed experience, and that even well-trained combat veterans still aren't likely to land perfect COM hits on a majority of targets, due to all the variables and human flaw, this is even more so. more well-as-can-be-placed holes is better than bigger-but-fewer-well-as-can-be-placed holes, when we're talking about the likelihood of striking vitals.

Originally Posted by geminidglocker

A skilled and properly trained shooter that has reacted to actual combat, is much more efficient with all said calibers.

I support this statement, by saying that when I was in Iraq I always seemed to let the muscle memory thing take over and just shoot at everything that moved, not just enemy combatives, it was in the beginning of the war so there were no negative points. Happy now? Thanks for ruining my day. Go piss in someone elses Kool-Aid!

One thing that I'm confused about is why manufacturers don't make 9mm FMJ's with a truncuated semiwadcutter type design as they do in .40S&W (actually Fiochi used to, and probably still does), or for that matter why more high quality JHP's aren't designed around the semiwadcutter type design, so that if there is a failure of expansion, the inherently superior cutting effect of the semiwadcutter design will be retained. I'd think that the armed forces, forced to use a FMJ design, would be all over the truncated semiwadcutter design for their handgun ammo.

And I can see why knife wounds can be more deadly than handgun bullets. A knife by its nature produces a highly lacerating/cutting wound, cutting everything in its path, whereas handgun bullets, especially FMJ's and low quality JHP's produce much smaller holes with much less of a "cutting" action, often just pushing tissues aside as they penetrate.

One thing that I'm confused about is why manufacturers don't make 9mm FMJ's with a truncuated semiwadcutter type design as they do in .40S&W (actually Fiochi used to, and probably still does), or for that matter why more high quality JHP's aren't designed around the semiwadcutter type design, so that if there is a failure of expansion, the inherently superior cutting effect of the semiwadcutter design will be retained. I'd think that the armed forces, forced to use a FMJ design, would be all over the truncated semiwadcutter design for their handgun ammo.

And I can see why knife wounds can be more deadly than handgun bullets. A knife by its nature produces a highly lacerating/cutting wound, cutting everything in its path, whereas handgun bullets, especially FMJ's and low quality JHP's produce much smaller holes with much less of a "cutting" action, often just pushing tissues aside as they penetrate.

My confusion arises from the fact that you agree that an FMJ .40 wound looks like that made from a GDHP .40. Since there is no magical shock-wave damaging multiple organs (Having watched multiple laproscopic surgeries, I agree, organs are very spaced out), the bullet only destroys what is in it's path, and if the paths look to be of the same size, what is gained from the JHP other than lower penetration? They both have been stated to make the same-size hole according to people who have seen the two holes made by the various rounds. .40" and .75" would be visibly different, imho. Sorry, feeling a bit lost here.

I think if this was the case we would have seen no improvement in performance--people ceasing action--between hollowpoints and hardball or between 9mm hardball and .45 hardball.

I know there are vast differences between individual shootings and individual reactions, but on a hole haven't we seen that people tend to go down faster with less shots with a good well designed hollowpoint than with hardball?

And I can see why knife wounds can be more deadly than handgun bullets. A knife by its nature produces a highly lacerating/cutting wound, cutting everything in its path, whereas handgun bullets, especially FMJ's and low quality JHP's produce much smaller holes with much less of a "cutting" action, often just pushing tissues aside as they penetrate.

I think also with stabbings by nature occur at touching range and involve multiple knife thrusts--moreso than gunshot wounds. It is much more common to see someone stabbed a dozen times than shot a dozen or more time times if nothing else due to ammo capacity limitations and shots missing.

I think if this was the case we would have seen no improvement in performance--people ceasing action--between hollowpoints and hardball or between 9mm hardball and .45 hardball.

I know there are vast differences between individual shootings and individual reactions, but on a hole haven't we seen that people tend to go down faster with less shots with a good well designed hollowpoint than with hardball?

If people cease their actions much faster as you state with a JHP, and the wound produced by a JHP vs. an FMJ is identical, what does this do to the presumption that energy transfer being a mechanism of incapacitation is a myth? There are so many contradictions that emerge if we accept that a JHP leaves the same hole an FMJ does.

I support this statement, by saying that when I was in Iraq I always seemed to let the muscle memory thing take over and just shoot at everything that moved, not just enemy combatives, it was in the beginning of the war so there were no negative points. Happy now? Thanks for ruining my day. Go piss in someone elses Kool-Aid!

If people cease their actions much faster as you state with a JHP, and the wound produced by a JHP vs. an FMJ is identical, what does this do to the presumption that energy transfer being a mechanism of incapacitation is a myth? There are so many contradictions that emerge if we accept that a JHP leaves the same hole an FMJ does.

I don't accept the premise that a properly designed hollowpoint leaves the same hole or permanent cavity as a hardball. We've seen this in ballistic gelatin. People, not being homogenous or transparent, are likely to be harder to disect and measure absolutely the wound channel.

Below is a picture of a .45 hardball compared to a standard velocity Ranger Talon that was retreived from a TX deer weighing between 125 and 150 lbs. I can't imagine that being shot with a round that performs like the Ranger Talon would be the same as being shot by one that maintains its profile like the hardball.

If hollowpoints made no difference in actual shootings, people like Doc Roberts and Dr. Fackler would have noticed long ago that hollowpoints make no difference over hardball.

I am not a believer in the Marshal and Sanow nonsense which has been proven to be fabricated and inaccurate, or energy wave theories. I recognize that no two shootings are the same because bullets don't hit the same exact place, people are physiologically different in terms of weight, body thickness, clothing, muscle, etc, mindset, mental reactions, and substances in their bodies like alcohol and drugs. Because of these differences there is no way to create an equal measuring system of shootings. However, we have seen general trends where in the same pistol calibers hollowpoints perform better than hardball and some hollowpoints perfom better than others.

And finally, the original posts being referenced were on Glocktalk, which at time has been known to produce less than credible posters and people posing as that which they are not.

And finally, the original posts being referenced were on Glocktalk, which at time has been known to produce less than credible posters and people posing as that which they are not.

perhaps we should invite Looking4u over and have our m4c staff check him out.

i don't see any reason to disbelieve Looking's findings, aside from the fact that he's a random internet personality like anyone else. he could be a phony, but if he's not- it doesn't really change anything. he hasn't claimed to be a ballistics expert nor a doctor. all he's done is state observations that really don't necessarily clash with anything we think we know. the wound channels dont look any different... ok, that's perfectly believable to me. there's more to term ballistics and incapacitation than post-mortum wound channel size. his statements about oddities are all perfectly plausible- and are just that: oddities, moldbreakers, luck. that happens. people have survived having unexploded RPGs lodged in their torsos... luck, or whatever you want to call it, happens.

furthermore, as has been touched on, and as he said, almost all of the shooting he's observed have been BG vs BG... shitty ammo, shitty weapons, shitty shot placement. these things make a huge difference. so while his observations are perfectly legit (assuming they are), his conclusions about defensive/duty loads might still be totally incorrect... and i believe that are, for the reasons listed here in this thread.