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I have no choice but to ignore the actual discussion because you provide nothing for your argument.. eaglesbaby puts together a masterpiece of a post and your rebuttal is a pile of garbage that doesn't actual respond to what's said in the post.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that people don't think you want DeSean Jackson on the team, and frankly I'm not sure how that even matters in this argument. You made the ridiculous statement that Maclin is better than Jackson and have nothing to back it up other than "Maclin has better hands" (which was shown to be untrue) and "Maclin draws more penalties" (!). Then you try to say Jackson doesn't produce like a #1 (proven wrong yet again) so you change it to "well I want a Calvin Johnson at WR" (because they grow on trees), despite the fact that you defend Michael Vick and his suckyness as if he was sucking your dick on a regular basis. Just stop saying stupid **** so we can end this pointless discussion

Lulz. He responded with, "My friend said this, so here ya go". I brought actual proof to the discussion. What else is there to respond to?

There aren't many outside of this forum that would argue that Maclin is a better "WR'" than Jackson. Jackson is easily the best play-maker that this offense has when the ball is in his hands, no doubt. I've never argued that at all, ever, and won't.

Give me something, show me some sort of proof that shows Desean as A) a better WR, and B) a more valuable WR. Can you do that without responding with, 'My friend said this, Aikman says, Joe Buck says, blah, blah, blah?

That is at it's simplest forms without any other factors added in. Maclin catches more catchable balls. Maclin has 3 drops on the season. Jackson 0. BUT, maclin has a higher rate of catches per catchable balls. i am impressed with 0 drops for Desean, i thought I remembered 1 in the endzone against someone, can't remember the exacts.

It isn't that I consider Maclin as a true #1, i just see him as a more complete WR, that's all. Granted, I also know that Desean helps out with that, but the flip side to that is also true.

Deseans TD's are down this year as well, that's also a little alarming. He isn't making the big plays down the field and getting behind DB's as he did when he first came in to the league. Defenses have caught up to him some. Also alarming is they are tied with plays greater than 20 yards, something Desean, in his role, should be leading without question.

At the end of the day, their numbers are eerily similar. This is more of a slight on Maclin as he was the 1st round pick, and his production must get better.

Whether you like it or not, Maclin is rated out statistically with all things considered the more valuable of the 2. Of course advanced stats don't mean everything, but it's a starting point. If you want, keep ignoring it, that's cool too.

#Bitter

Russell "Losing the Game Manager" Wilson

This is what happens when you don't give the ball to the best player on your team.

We will never use Vick or Jackson properly because our offensive coordinator is incapable, so your asking for a miracle here.

If you gave an offensive genius like Josh McDaniels someone like Djax or Shady, he'd put together one of the most unstoppable offenses in the league. Even the Niners offensive coordintor is creative when Kaepernick is in the game.

I just don't get why we never use Vick in those option sets, it boggles my mind too.

Ya he's soft, fumbles a lot and gets hurt easily but it still wouldn't hurt to try.

We have different definitions of soft apparantly.

Are you at least going to admit that your comment about Maclin's blocking hurting huge runs by McCoy for the past 2 years was complete and utter made-up bologna?

#Bitter

Russell "Losing the Game Manager" Wilson

This is what happens when you don't give the ball to the best player on your team.

I have no choice but to ignore the actual discussion because you provide nothing for your argument.. eaglesbaby puts together a masterpiece of a post and your rebuttal is a pile of garbage that doesn't actual respond to what's said in the post.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that people don't think you want DeSean Jackson on the team, and frankly I'm not sure how that even matters in this argument. You made the ridiculous statement that Maclin is better than Jackson and have nothing to back it up other than "Maclin has better hands" (which was shown to be untrue) and "Maclin draws more penalties" (!). Then you try to say Jackson doesn't produce like a #1 (proven wrong yet again) so you change it to "well I want a Calvin Johnson at WR" (because they grow on trees), despite the fact that you defend Michael Vick and his suckyness as if he was sucking your dick on a regular basis. Just stop saying stupid **** so we can end this pointless discussion

1. BDawk is trying to show that he doesn't hate Jackson. That's not what he's making the argument against him being a number one.

2. Jackson having the better hands was not proven. While I agree with the comment that we have to factor in inaccurate throws from the QB, we also don't have an idea of how many OF those throws were inaccurate. And lets be serious, we're arguing between a difference of 4 dropped balls. That just isn't enough to say one way or the other who has better hands.

3. Jackson does not produce like a number one. BDawk said it best. Jackson has never been known to get 8+ receptions in a game on a consistent basis. He's good, I like him, he's valuable. But true #1 WR's can be targeted multiple times in a game. Jackson isn't it

You're write, what BDawk and I are calling a "true #1" is rare. They aren't easy to come across. But can we at least admit that Jackson isn't that? I mean, an eye test tells you that much. He's good, he's just not big, tall, fast, athletic, and has good hands (not all that together).

Finally, this inappropriate reference to filatio is ridiculous. Please be classier than that. Getting frustrated is one thing, but that's out of line.

Wtf lmao my stats were from a friend?? They were from a PSD poster with a subscription to ProFootballFocus. Proof is on my wall itself, heck it was a Cowboys fan who actually hates DeSean Jackson that gave me the stats, but lets keep thinking I'm making up stuff, just because there are no other reasonable comebacks.

I even said this before I got it, that I would have to ask someone with subscription and I did and it gets twisted into it being made up because I asked a subscriber
This guy grasps at every damn straw possible.

Also he didn't even comprehend what I said in my original post about "catch rate"

Catch rate has more factors put into it than the WR's talent itself. The QB has a bigger role in catch rate than the WR's skills. Just awful, how often do you guys see people in the main forum using "catch rate" when comparing WR's??
That's right NEVER, because everyone understands wtf it truly means.

Also dropped passes doesn't help prove who has better hands?? But a bleacher report rating has more bearings?? What's funny is he says my stats are from "a friend" but he finds stats eerily similar and uses those

I give up it's like trying to teach ABC's to a 3 year old and before it gets ridiculous and results in baiting and bans, I'll just end it at this and let everyone reading figure out who's right and wrong, while one guy keeps embarrassing himself.

1. BDawk is trying to show that he doesn't hate Jackson. That's not what he's making the argument against him being a number one.

2. Jackson having the better hands was not proven. While I agree with the comment that we have to factor in inaccurate throws from the QB, we also don't have an idea of how many OF those throws were inaccurate. And lets be serious, we're arguing between a difference of 4 dropped balls. That just isn't enough to say one way or the other who has better hands.

3. Jackson does not produce like a number one. BDawk said it best. Jackson has never been known to get 8+ receptions in a game on a consistent basis. He's good, I like him, he's valuable. But true #1 WR's can be targeted multiple times in a game. Jackson isn't it

You're write, what BDawk and I are calling a "true #1" is rare. They aren't easy to come across. But can we at least admit that Jackson isn't that? I mean, an eye test tells you that much. He's good, he's just not big, tall, fast, athletic, and has good hands (not all that together).

Finally, this inappropriate reference to filatio is ridiculous. Please be classier than that. Getting frustrated is one thing, but that's out of line.

I'm just going to ask you this, who gets the more tougher balls thrown there way Djax or Maclin?? That will answer question 2 for you..

Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez

We have different definitions of soft apparantly.

Are you at least going to admit that your comment about Maclin's blocking hurting huge runs by McCoy for the past 2 years was complete and utter made-up bologna?

Mike Vick isn't soft?? How many cracked ribs, concussions and other injuries has he suffered from getting hit the last 2 or 3 years?? That's soft I don't know what else you call that.

He's no Donovan Mcnabb being able to play with cracked ribs and still being effective at that.

I'll say this much. To call Vick soft is definitely not accurate. He was taking hits at a record pace behind this line this year, and kept getting back up. He's fragile and injury prone, but that does not make him soft. Regardless of what anyone thinks of his ability as a QB etc, you certainly can't question his toughness or his heart. He's like an Allen Iverson behind center, and injury prone or not, if you're taking hits as frequently as he was, you're bound to get hurt.

As far as Maclin Vs. Jackson, it's kind of apples and oranges to me. Maclin is a better possession receiver. Jackson is a better play maker. It shouldn't be as complicated as you guys are making it out to be. I don't favor one over the other, I like what they both bring to the offense.

Jackson is a lot easier to stop with double teams (granted defenses still have to be properly equipped to do so), whereas a big Calvin Johnson type who can "go up and get it" can't be stopped by anybody or anything when he's on his game. Which I think is what Bdawk is trying to say.

I'm not taking sides in this argument, because like I said, I love both guys. But Jackson can't really take over a game when the deep stuff is taken away (which I think is what Bdawk means when he says Jackson is not a "true #1). Not saying that Maclin is necessarily a guy who can take over a game either, but he is more equipped to do so than Jackson is in that kind of situation. It sucks that Jackson isn't out there now to see how he gels with Foles, but it looks like Maclin and Foles have a pretty good chemistry forming.

Not factoring in price tags, if I had to choose to keep only one of the two moving forward, I would probably choose Maclin. If you give me a Dwayne Bowe or somebody cut from that same cloth (a true #1 by Bdawks definition), then I take Jackson over Maclin in a heartbeat as a compliment. There has to be a capable guy on the other side for Jackson to be consistently effective based on his strengths. You take that away and it's double team city on Jackson every week, and while he may still get his catches and his yards by other means here and there, he's going to be rendered useless by good defenses 9 times out of 10.

Both guys are better with the other guy on the other side than they are without him, but Maclin is more reliable on his own than Jackson would be. Just my adderall laced $0.02.

I'll say this much. To call Vick soft is definitely not accurate. He was taking hits at a record pace behind this line this year, and kept getting back up. He's fragile and injury prone, but that does not make him soft. Regardless of what anyone thinks of his ability as a QB etc, you certainly can't question his toughness or his heart. He's like an Allen Iverson behind center, and injury prone or not, if you're taking hits as frequently as he was, you're bound to get hurt.

As far as Maclin Vs. Jackson, it's kind of apples and oranges to me. Maclin is a better possession receiver. Jackson is a better play maker. It shouldn't be as complicated as you guys are making it out to be. I don't favor one over the other, I like what they both bring to the offense.

Jackson is a lot easier to stop with double teams (granted defenses still have to be properly equipped to do so), whereas a big Calvin Johnson type who can "go up and get it" can't be stopped by anybody or anything when he's on his game. Which I think is what Bdawk is trying to say.

I'm not taking sides in this argument, because like I said, I love both guys. But Jackson can't really take over a game when the deep stuff is taken away (which I think is what Bdawk means when he says Jackson is not a "true #1). Not saying that Maclin is necessarily a guy who can take over a game either, but he is more equipped to do so than Jackson is in that kind of situation. It sucks that Jackson isn't out there now to see how he gels with Foles, but it looks like Maclin and Foles have a pretty good chemistry forming.

Not factoring in price tags, if I had to choose to keep only one of the two moving forward, I would probably choose Maclin. If you give me a Dwayne Bowe or somebody cut from that same cloth (a true #1 by Bdawks definition), then I take Jackson over Maclin in a heartbeat as a compliment. There has to be a capable guy on the other side for Jackson to be consistently effective based on his strengths. You take that away and it's double team city on Jackson every week, and while he may still get his catches and his yards by other means here and there, he's going to be rendered useless by good defenses 9 times out of 10.

Both guys are better with the other guy on the other side than they are without him, but Maclin is more reliable on his own than Jackson would be. Just my adderall laced $0.02.

Reading comprehension FTW.

#Bitter

Russell "Losing the Game Manager" Wilson

This is what happens when you don't give the ball to the best player on your team.

What a subjective suggestion. How could you possibly prove "who has the tougher throws"? What does that even really mean? This is really getting silly

It's not subjective I've given you the numbers, heck even Bdawks given you the numbers.

Who has had the more un catchable balls thrown their way?? It's up there^^, its not a subjective answer, the only subjective part is me asking you since you watch the games how do you see it.

If your going to sit there and lie how Djax isn't our deep threat that gets over thrown and under thrown a lot and gets more un catchable balls then I don't know what else I can provide you with. Numbers are there and so should your eyes

It's funny everyone says Djax is strictly a one trick pony and strictly a speed guy, but yet he's found a way to get 5000 yards in his career of it. Not to mention the last two years people always complain how we don't have a deep ball anymore and yet he's still being productive, I wonder how??

Again like I said I wasn't coming at you per say, I was just generally expanding on your comments.

Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez

Just give up, I did.

You gave up cause you had nothing else to say and wouldn't admit you got roasted like a man.

Everyone saw it, its out there you made claims couldn't back them up and then tried waiting for people to argue for you to help you out but no one bit.

Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez

Reading comprehension FTW.

What he said is something everyone has said even me and Westkins, but nowhere in there does he help prove your "better hands" and better blocking claims

Keep clutching straws though Its quite jokes to be honest
Like I said your just finding people to piggyback of when their not even agreeing with your claims.

Again if you want to "give up" then give up because it seems like your trolling at this point after getting owned.
Just put it to rest for heavens sakes or try backing up your claims more please. Cause I hate people who can't argue so they resort to try baiting and trolling you into a ban

I'll say this much. To call Vick soft is definitely not accurate. He was taking hits at a record pace behind this line this year, and kept getting back up. He's fragile and injury prone, but that does not make him soft. Regardless of what anyone thinks of his ability as a QB etc, you certainly can't question his toughness or his heart. He's like an Allen Iverson behind center, and injury prone or not, if you're taking hits as frequently as he was, you're bound to get hurt.

Then what happened last year?? When we actually had a really good o-line and he kept getting hurt, or the numerous fumbles he's had stripped out of him when trying to scramble? Or the time he broke his hand falling to the ground on his own?

Not questioning his heart and it definitely isn't his fault his bodies the way it is, but I would like to know what your definition of soft is because you said being fragile and injury prone doesn't make you soft, then what does??

Both guys are better with the other guy on the other side than they are without him, but Maclin is more reliable on his own than Jackson would be. Just my adderall laced $0.02.

I agree with everything you've said in the other parts except for this. This is not true judging back to three years ago everytime Djax has missed a game Maclin has not shown he can be more reliable.
In the 3 games without Djax thus far, he's had 200 yards 1 TD and a fumble.

Last year when Djax missed a game because of his suspension Maclin had 1 catch for 6 yards against the Cards.

Then the year before when Djax missed a game due to injury he had 5 catches for 42 yards in a blow out loss.

These are the reasons why I have no hope in him because without Djax he hasn't truly proved anything, to say he's worth keeping long term over him.

It's not subjective I've given you the numbers, heck even Bdawks given you the numbers.

Who has had the more un-catchable balls thrown their way?? It's up there^^, its not a subjective answer, the only subjective part is me asking you since you watch the games how do you see it.

The "un-catchable" part is what is subjective. It's a statisticians opinion on what should/shouldn't be caught. It wasn't used to be the "end-all" to the discussion, only to help paint the picture.

If your going to sit there and lie how Djax isn't our deep threat that gets over thrown and under thrown a lot and gets more un catchable balls then I don't know what else I can provide you with. Numbers are there and so should your eyes

Who said DJax wan't our deep threat? The over/under thrown argument is ridiculous.

It's funny everyone says Djax is strictly a one trick pony and strictly a speed guy, but yet he's found a way to get 5000 yards in his career of it. Not to mention the last two years people always complain how we don't have a deep ball anymore and yet he's still being productive, I wonder how??

Again like I said I wasn't coming at you per say, I was just generally expanding on your comments.

Desean is productive with the deep ball, at times. At times he also disappears from the offense, leading to other being more productive. It's not a knock on Desean, it's the reality of the offensive scheme. You get so butt hurt over anything you perceive to be negative about DJax.

You gave up cause you had nothing else to say and wouldn't admit you got roasted like a man.

Everyone saw it, its out there you made claims couldn't back them up and then tried waiting for people to argue for you to help you out but no one bit.

Roasted? Hardly. YOU claimed Maclin was an awful blocker. I brought up an article (valid or not) that claimed the contrary. Have you provided anything, anything at all that says differently? No.

YOU claimed that Maclin has cost us SOOOO MANY HUGE runs by Shady for the past 2 seasons. I showed where Maclin has been called for 2 holding penalties, in 2 seasons. What did you show on the contrary? Nothing, other than saying your friend paid for a site and gave you "real" numbers to prove it. I've asked several times about your false claim/statement, and you keep ignoring it. So, who is talking out of their ***?

I also don't need anyone to come in and argue one way or the other to "help me". It's an IGT from 3 weeks ago, I'm sure nobody really cares what's being discussed in here.

What he said is something everyone has said even me and Westkins, but nowhere in there does he help prove your "better hands" and better blocking claims

Keep clutching straws though Its quite jokes to be honest
Like I said your just finding people to piggyback of when their not even agreeing with your claims.

Maclin is a better possession receiver. Plain and simple, ignore it if you want, it's just the way it is.

Again if you want to "give up" then give up because it seems like your trolling at this point after getting owned.
Just put it to rest for heavens sakes or try backing up your claims more please. Cause I hate people who can't argue so they resort to try baiting and trolling you into a ban

Me baiting and trolling? Hello pot, meet the black kettle.

Another fun fact. This season Desean has 2 fumbles, Maclin 1. Oh the irony.

Last edited by BDawk4Prez; 12-17-2012 at 08:53 AM.

#Bitter

Russell "Losing the Game Manager" Wilson

This is what happens when you don't give the ball to the best player on your team.

Then what happened last year?? When we actually had a really good o-line and he kept getting hurt, or the numerous fumbles he's had stripped out of him when trying to scramble? Or the time he broke his hand falling to the ground on his own?

Not questioning his heart and it definitely isn't his fault his bodies the way it is, but I would like to know what your definition of soft is because you said being fragile and injury prone doesn't make you soft, then what does??

Soft is not being able to take the hits. Shying away from contact. Lack of toughness. None of which apply to Vick. He never whined about it, he never called anybody out about it. Whatever your opinion of Vick, you absolutely cannot call him soft.

I agree with everything you've said in the other parts except for this. This is not true judging back to three years ago everytime Djax has missed a game Maclin has not shown he can be more reliable.
In the 3 games without Djax thus far, he's had 200 yards 1 TD and a fumble.

Last year when Djax missed a game because of his suspension Maclin had 1 catch for 6 yards against the Cards.

Then the year before when Djax missed a game due to injury he had 5 catches for 42 yards in a blow out loss.

These are the reasons why I have no hope in him because without Djax he hasn't truly proved anything, to say he's worth keeping long term over him.

When Djax hasn't played our record is 1-4 and thats a fact.

The Cardinals game last year is a bad example. Vick played his worst game in an Eagles uniform to date in that game. He was awful in that game. Not even Djax would have been able to save him from that dreadful performance.

As far Maclin having 200 yards in the past 3 games, 177 of those yards came in the past two games. Foles was a mess in the Dallas game, but over the past 2 games Foles has started to blossom a little bit, and Maclin's production is picking up because of it.

So we've got what, a total of 4 games that Maclin has played without Jackson? Very small sample size, and in two of those games the QB play was god awful. Not really enough to solidify any argument.

Like I said before, I'm not taking sides in this argument. A case can be made for either guy. But you definitely underrate Maclin too much. I mean, you did once suggest that Steve Smith (the one that doesn't play for Carolina) was a better option. I mean....

I'll say this much. Whether you are right or wrong about DJax, you're wrong about Maclin. He's not nearly as bad as you make him out to be. He's not a superstar by any means, but he is quietly a very solid receiver. To say that Maclin is a more "complete" receiver is not necessarily to suggest that he is a "better" overall weapon, or even a better player. But there are definitely times where he is a better option.

I've got nothing against DJax. I love the guy, and I've defended him many times, against BDawk himself no less. But as electric as he is, he can be taken out of a game easier than Maclin can by good defenses. Without the ability to get separation, Jackson is rendered ineffective more often than not. BDawk is right, we've seen it happen before.

Remember the infamous "tunnel dance" playoff loss to Dallas a few years ago? Maclin - 7 catches for 146 yards. Jackson - 3 catches for 14 yards. The stats argument can be used both ways. It's pretty much circumstantial. It doesn't tell the whole story. Dallas completely took DJax out of that game, and Maclin stepped up.

I'm not 100% sure, but I'd be willing to bet that Maclin has out performed Jackson statistically more times than Jackson has out performed Maclin on an individual game basis. Jackson's yards come in bunches and spurts, where Maclin's production is more consistently spread out. They are both good in their own ways, and there are many different ways to argue which guy is "better." I'm not here to argue for one or the other, but Djax is average or slightly above when he cannot utilize his speed. Maclin does not have to rely on his speed.

From a sheer talent perspective, Djax is the better player. Fundamentally, Maclin is better. He is without a doubt a more "complete" receiver. Not as flashy or explosive, but definitely more rounded. If we're going into a playoff game vs a team with a really good defense, and only one guy can play, I'd want Maclin on the field over Jackson. That's not a shot at Jackson or his abilities, but the Dallas game I referenced is a a perfect example of why I would make that choice. Either way, they are both better when they're on the field together.

This argument could literally go on forever. I respect your opinion, and I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong. You have a good argument. But again, you are definitely not giving Maclin enough credit. That much I'm certain of.