Author
Topic: "You both should end up working together more closely" (part 1) -- Marauder Moe (Read 12845 times)

Finally, one of the first logs from last year's spying antics. A bit of setup:

Ella is one of the spies embedded in Tuluk. She has managed to join the Bards of Poets' Circle. She learns something at a meeting with her handler, Reon...

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A Grassy Knoll A large, grassy knoll covered with pech grasses rises up in the centerof this quarter. Smoke plumes can be seen wafting up from numerous smallhuts, and two large wooden structures can be seen off towards the east. Atthe summit of the hill rests an ancient well that has collapsed in uponitself.A few small piles of sawdust are here.A tall plant, smelling of citron, grows here.A half-giant Tuluki soldier looms here in staunch silence.

A foreign presence contacts your mind.

The solid, brown-haired man sends you a telepathic message: "Busy?"

You suffer from use of the Way.You contact the solid, brown-haired man with the Way.

You suffer from use of the Way.You send a telepathic message to the solid, brown-haired man: "Not really."

The wind picks up some speed.

The solid, brown-haired man sends you a telepathic message: "I'd love to hear your music. Come on by the Tooth, just past the bar."

You sense a foreign presence withdraw from your mind.

You dissolve the psychic link.

.......

Hope's Sojourn [N, E, S] A wide, dusty street winds its way past rows of large, brickbuildings. Numerous granite stones have been set into the surface of thestreet forming a smooth and somewhat irregular path. Rising up from eitherside of the road are large, brick buildings that have been erected seeminglyon top of each other. Overlooking the street are large, circular holes thathave been carved into the sides of the majority of buildings to serve aswindows to the outside. Sturdy, rugged flaps hang down from each of them toshield against the often times harsh weather of the Northlands. The commonbuzz of daily life filters throughout the street, mingling with theoccasional whisper of wind to provide unique melody. Sounds of laughter and dining can be heard coming from the building onthe eastern side of the street. A tall stone frieze has been carved into the wall here, looming over the road.The short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak is standing here.An ashen-skinned, dusky-blonde haired girl trots along the street humming.The veiny, smooth-skinned youth loiters beside the tavern entrance.A scruffy, one-eyed Kuraci leans here, a tube clenched between his teeth.

The short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak looks up at you.

You look down at the short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak. Barely looking to have entered her teens, this human female before yousports a head of unruly, dirty-blonde curls that fall about her face andshoulders. Slim, darker brows rest over deep, sapphire-hued eyes that inturn frame her small, button nose. Her cheekbones are well pronounced,given the lack of fat to her cheeks themselves, before meeting with herdainty jawline and sharply angled chin. Thin and pale pink, her lipsoccasionally part to give a glimpse at a full set of off white teeth. Ascrawny neck connects to a narrow pair of shoulders before lowering intolong, thin arms and nimble-looking, callused hands. With next to no extrapadding to speak of, she sports a barely noticable bust and a reed thinstomach that connects to her boyish hips. A little on the short side, herlegs are little more then twigs, showing little in the way of muscledefinition before ending in small feet. While holding a dark tan similar tomost who live beneath Krath, her skin shows a good deal of scrapes, scars,dirt and the odd bruise or two. The short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak is in excellent condition.

The short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak is using:<neck> a blue and purple inked band<across back> a rough canvas backpack<on torso> a sandcloth halter<on arms> a pair of black-trimmed, green sandcloth sleeves<hands> a tattoo of a six-pronged star<as belt> a gurth-buckled belt<hung from belt> a bone-hilted, carru-antler longknife<hung from belt> a bone-hilted, carru-antler longknife<around body> a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak<on legs> a set of carru-hide leggings<on feet> a pair of high black and green leather boots

She is carrying:nothing obvious

Politely, in a soft tone, as she moves through the crowds, the short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak says to you, in sirihish: "Hi.."

Nodding with a small smile, you say to the short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak, in sirihish: "Hello."

The moustached, mulleted man has arrived from the east, reaching for his hood.

The moustached, mulleted man raises the hood of his hooded, hawk-scorched leather duster.

The figure in a hooded, hawk-scorched leather duster walks south.

Slowing a moment near the tavern entry to peek inside, the short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak says to you, in sirihish: "Been a dull week, hope it picks up for ya, if ya goin' in."

A foreign presence contacts your mind.

The solid, brown-haired man sends you a telepathic message: "The other "just past the bar." Spice den."

The figure in a hooded, hawk-scorched leather duster has arrived from the south.

The figure in a hooded, hawk-scorched leather duster walks north.

You say to the short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak, in sirihish: "Oh? Looks like a nice crowd."

You sense a foreign presence withdraw from your mind.

Starting to pad her way in, the short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak says to you, in sirihish: "Yeah, not much doin' in it though. Heh. His Light! May buy ya a drink later t'improve it some."

The night has begun.

The short figure in a hooded, darkly-stained sandcloth greatcloak walks east.

"The Tembo's Tooth" - Tavern [E, W, D, Quit] Smooth, sanded cylini planks have been laid across the floor of thiscramped room, their polished surface flickering in the lights of the candles.Dark stains splatter the wooden floor at odd intervals, disrupting theotherwise smooth contour of the wood with slight warps and bends. A curvedbar, formed from what appears to have once been highly polished agafari woodextends from the northern wall. Spaced around it are several bare, asceticwooden barstools. A sturdy trapdoor has been set in the floor behind thebar. Several rows of shelves have been inset into the wall behind the barand contain a variety of local ales and liquor. Willowy, vine-like plantsdrape from rounded clay bowls, the gloss of their leaves reflecting the dimlight of the candles spaced around the room. Rows of booths line thenorthern and southern walls while the center of the room is occupied bytwo rounded tables.The Tuluk bulletin board is here propped up on a stand.The brawny russet-skinned dwarf is sitting at a curved, agafari bar.The reddish-blond, slender man is sitting at a curved, agafari bar.The trim, wiry young man is sitting at a curved, agafari bar.The bulky, obsidian haired man is sitting at a curved, agafari bar.The lithe, henna-haired woman is sitting at a curved, agafari bar.The lanky, jade-eyed youth lounges at the bar.The ancient, tremulous man sits at a far table, chatting to some youngsters.Leaning against one wall, a curly-haired man keeps an eye on the tavern.The black-bearded, heavyset man leans against the bar, frowning.Sitting at a booth, the rangy, iron-haired woman converses with some hunters.The robust, head-shaven man stands patiently behind the bar.The toned, ruby-red half-giant sits cross-legged beside the bar.

The lithe, henna-haired woman stands up from a curved, agafari bar.

The lithe, henna-haired woman walks west.

The solid, tanned woman glances back outside briefly, then shrugs to herself.

At a curved, agafari bar, the trim, wiry young man speaks, grimacing slightly.

e (wandering through the tavern)"The Tembo's Tooth" - Spice Den [N, E, S, W, Quit] A haze of sweet-smelling spice dominates this circular chamber,tantalizing your senses with its seductive allure. The room has beenfashioned into a large circle, set halfway within the grasp of the hardpacked earth. The walls are lined with long baobab planks, stained a rich,earthen hue that add to the relaxing atmosphere of the den. A line ofplush, silken pillows and stuffed mattresses have been strewn about theentire room, providing welcome arms to any that would enjoy their purchaseimmediately. A wooden ramp, covered in thick rugs of woven cloth, leads to animpressive circle of raised stone in the center of the room. In the middleof the circle stands a small area for a merchant to conduct their businessfrom several stations about the stand. Along the walls lay several dim, oil lamps marking the path along theramp that leads up and out of the den. A small stage curves along thenortheastern wall, a polished agafari pole affixed in the middle of it. A multi-ringed dartboard hangs on the wall.The solid, brown-haired man is standing here.Back straight, the hard-eyed man keeps an eye on the tavern.The well-kept, silver-haired woman stands at the center of the circular bar.The husky, unkempt half-giant leans lazily against the doorway.A grim dwarf with bloodshot eyes stands near the stage, arms over his chest.

Taking a seat with a yawn, the solid, brown-haired man sits at a small, polished wooden bar.

You look down at the solid, brown-haired man.Of an average height for a human, this middle-aged man's appearance canbest be summed up by one word: solid. His light skin hints at somethingsturdy beneath it, though it is difficult to tell at a glance whether thatmight be muscle or fat. Scars mar his skin here and there, with more ofthem showing up near his callused hands. Agafari-brown hair might spilldown past his shoulders were it not bound up tightly with leather. His eyesof pale green peek out from beneath craggy, thick eyebrows to situatethemselves on either side of a bold and slightly bulbous nose. A squaredjaw and thin lips finish out the rest of his features. The solid, brown-haired man is in excellent condition.

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, passing his small cloth pouch over to you: "Here ya go--go buy yourself some spice or somethin'."

The solid, brown-haired man gives you his small cloth pouch.

In a small cloth pouch (carried) :a few piles of allanaki coins

At your seat, you say in sirihish, grinning: "How nice! I thought I might perform in the other room too, if you'd like to listen."

You get your pile of allanaki coins from your small cloth pouch.There were 500 coins.It is very light.

You open your rough canvas backpack.

You put your small cloth pouch into your rough canvas backpack.

You close your rough canvas backpack.

You give the well-kept, silver-haired woman 19 obsidian coins for a booklet of rolling papers.

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, bobbing his head to you: "Oh, sure. That'd be swell, but I have a little I want to enjoy in here, away from the usual crew."

At your seat, you say in sirihish, nodding gently: "Alright."

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, shaking his head after a moment's pause, swigging from his red-striped granite tankard: "So, performing. You doin' that thing now?"

Assessively, the solid, brown-haired man looks at you.

At your seat, you say in sirihish, nodding eagerly: "I am."

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, lifting a hand to point to your face: "Looks like ya got yourself a new bit of ink there. Congratulations are in order, I think...?"

You give the well-kept, silver-haired woman 144 obsidian coins for a pinch of dark-red, golden-flecked spice.

At your seat, you say in sirihish, with a quick grin: "Thanks, yes. Was a difficult audition, but I made it."

The lithe, henna-haired woman has arrived from the west, wandering through.

Smiling a greeting to you and the solid, brown-haired man, the lithe, henna-haired woman sits at a small, polished wooden bar.

You look at the lithe, henna-haired woman.This woman has shoulder-length hair dyed a reddish brown and it frames arounded, softly accented face. She watches the world from dark brown eyes,framed by thick black brows and lashes and her nose is blunt above thinnishlips. Her caramel-hued skin is flecked with small scars and imperfectionsand she has slight contours that tell of her femininity. Her lithe physiqueand lean limbs tell of an active lifestyle, and her hands have callus-tippedfingers. The lithe, henna-haired woman is in excellent condition.

At your seat, you say in sirihish, to the lithe, henna-haired woman: "I was thinking about going out there to play a song. What do you think?"

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish: "How are you Ella? It's been a while. And why not?"

The solid, brown-haired man looks at the lithe, henna-haired woman.

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish, looking between you and the solid, brown-haired man: "Perhaps ask them if they want one? What do you think?"

The lithe, henna-haired woman looks at the solid, brown-haired man.

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, shrugging his shoulders: "Oh, I'd be happy to listen to one, though I have a few things I was hoping to run by you two lovely bards."

At your seat, you say in sirihish, shrugging: "I was just going to play."

Somebody drops a glass of mead.

At your seat, you say in sirihish, looking to the solid, brown-haired man: "Oh?"

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish: "Hmm, well. You could try that too!"

The lithe, henna-haired woman looks to the solid, brown-haired man with amiable enquiry.

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, nodding back to you, nursing his red-striped granite tankard: "Yes. Good to see you've met. There was this Irofel bard I was trying to place and figure out...but Krath if I couldn't remember the name."

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, clearing his throat, lowering his voice a trifle: "It's quite interesting that both of you've become apprentices of the Bardic Circles. Congratulations are in order, of course."

You are a little thirsty.

A stoic, broad-shouldered man has arrived from the east.

The muscular, jade-eyed soldier has arrived from the east.

A stoic, broad-shouldered man runs west.

The muscular, jade-eyed soldier walks west.

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish, smiling to the solid, brown-haired man: "My thanks, I look forward to working with Ella actually. We always just seem to meet in passing."

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, as he eases his elbows against a small, polished wooden bar, propping up his chin: "Well, you both should end up working together more closely. While two different Circles might not interact on a regular basis..."

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, glancing pointedly to you: "...they certainly will work together from time to time, on important projects."

At your seat, you say in sirihish, chuckling: "I'd certainly like that. Mostly I think we just have bad timing."

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish, bobbing a nod, brown eyes bright: "We'll form a troupe!"

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, cracking a grin at you: "Timing is everything."

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish, almost cheekily to the solid, brown-haired man: "And then who will get the credit when we're famous?!"

At your seat, you say in sirihish, nodding eagerly at the lithe, henna-haired woman: "Right! Like we talked about after that party some months back."

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, peering at the lithe, henna-haired woman: "Well, I suppose ol' Reon here will. Because I'm a very good identifier of bardic talent, I am."

The solid, brown-haired man stops using his red-striped granite tankard.

The lithe, henna-haired woman smiles and tucks a few strands of hair behind her ear.

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, patting a small, polished wooden bar: "Look, I guard the Hlum. I don't get to spend too much time away on my own to figure out bardic antics all of the while."

The image of the solid, brown-haired man wavers slightly in your mind.

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish: "Well on a personal level my life is exciting."

You suffer from use of the Way.You contact the solid, brown-haired man with the Way.

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish, her voice gentle: "If all goes well, Sun King willing, in a year's time i'll be Faithful Lord Talius's aide."

You suffer from use of the Way.You send a telepathic message to the solid, brown-haired man: "Come again? You've had a bit to drink I'm afraid."

The image of the solid, brown-haired man wavers slightly in your mind.

You suffer from use of the Way.

The solid, brown-haired man sends you a telepathic message: "Sorry...that...happens. I was going to say...I assume this is quite clear?"

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish, smiling a touch whimsically: "Also, I have a mate now. Xen, Courier of Tenneshi and almost definitly going to be a Tenneshi aide soon."

You suffer from use of the Way.You send a telepathic message to the solid, brown-haired man: "Of course."

At your seat, the solid, brown-haired man says in sirihish, smiling over to the lithe, henna-haired woman: "Impressive."

At your seat, you say in sirihish, glancing at the lithe, henna-haired woman: "You and Xen?"

You are a little thirsty.

You suffer from use of the Way.

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish, bobbing a nod between the solid, brown-haired man and you: "Yes, actually, the Chosen Lord is terribly generous to me, and has offered to talk to me about his vast knowledge of histories."

The solid, brown-haired man sends you a telepathic message: "Another bit of spice-payment will be coming your way. I'd go take a little seat outside of the Sanctuary on that bench."

At your seat, you say in sirihish, with a small smile: "If you two would excuse me? I need to go get something to drink."

The solid, brown-haired man nods at you.

At your seat, the lithe, henna-haired woman says in sirihish, dipping a nod to you: "See you soon."

At your seat, you say in sirihish, smiling at the lithe, henna-haired woman: "Certainly!"

Nodding to the lithe, henna-haired woman and the solid, brown-haired man, you stand at a small, polished wooden bar.

You push away from a small, polished wooden bar.

.......

North Salt Road [N, S, W] Rows of pale stones form the backbone for this broad avenue, settledinto the ground with graceful fervor. Decorating the edge of the street,the buildings and storefronts are universally adorned with garish and tawdrysculptures, bas reliefs, and murals. The road is filled with a continualthrong of humans and demi-humans alike as they scurry about the bustle ofdaily life. The heavy traffic from the incoming trade splits here, dividing betweenthe north and off to the south. A low-rising vacant pedestal, an elongatedoval shape, causes the crowds to pass around it. A stone bench rests onthe eastern side of the intersection, out of the way and placed for viewingthe flow of pedestrians.The tawny, blonde-haired woman strolls down the street, eyes bright.

The solid, tanned woman glances at a small white stone bench thoughtfully.

The tall figure in a scrub-camouflaged sandcloth duster has arrived from the west, riding a yellow sunback lizard.

You think: "I'll do a little practice."

A yellow sunback lizard walks north, carrying the tall figure in a scrub-camouflaged sandcloth duster on his back.

You sit on a small white stone bench.

You stop holding your light brown, leather instrument case.

You open your light brown, leather instrument case.

You get your simple wooden lute from your light brown, leather instrument case.It is very light.

The solid, tanned woman gently plays a few scales up and down the fretboard.

Carved of smooth white marble, this stone bench is patterned withtriangles and bas-relief curves. Its size seems designed to hold two humanscomfortably or three with lesser ease. Its feet are carved into clawedfeet, each securely grasping a ball of matching stone. You are sitting on it.On a small white stone bench (here) :a black snakeskin carrying poucha sprig of aromatic leavesa spray of graceful white blossoms

You get your black snakeskin carrying pouch from a small white stone bench.It is very light, and more than half full.

The burning sun rises high into the sky, searing the earth.The scarlet face of Jihae rises, staring down from the sky.

The spies were given a contact that would be their handler, but even the contact went by a pseudonym. After he met them and revealed himself (individually), he was known by his real name, Reon. We picked "Hlum Guard" as the job he'd garnered, and as later logs will hopefully show...that turned out to be a really lucky pick for a cover job. The money drop here was intended to keep funding Ella's "activities," and while I remember several of these drops, I'm not sure if all three spy PCs utilized the same method. In this case, this would've been the first meeting between Ella and Alize in which they both were made aware (by use of another name, Adaren) that they were both on the same side.

I found it funny, really, that two of the spy PCs managed to become members of the Bards of Poets' Circle. It could only have been better if they'd been in a play about there being Allanaki spies in Tuluk vanquished by the Forces of Good.

I like how the log starts on a grassy knoll, to make it clear there's a conspiracy going down...

I like how the conversation makes it clear enough that they are working together to do something, but enigmatic enough to hide everyone's true intent, and hopefully reveal more of it with additional parts to the log. It seems like a log that will stand a lot stronger when all the parts are in, but I appreciate the effort to show how players were involved in a part of the game's history.

Speaking for myself, I was very aware that it would be easy to play a pretty much flawlessly secret spy - but that wouldn't have been fair to other players, the story, and wouldn't have been half as exciting. It was a fine line between making it painfully obvious, and painfully obscure.

I had to balance ooc and ic knowledge - both mine and other players' - as well as juggling adrenalin and whatever else was going on. For example - in the scene above, if a Faithful (or other PC) had been watching in on that scene - ooc they would have noticed that a Hlum guard is in play. (*brrrrin brrrrin* curiosity alarm bells!). If they were a 'bender they might have noticed that Alize was busy making sure her 'mate' wasn't about to sneak/come in and start asking awkward questions...and so on.

I think that struck a more subtle, interesting balance than:

think Oooh, my secret handler has just wayed because I'm a spy for Allanak. I'd better wall up immediately between making sure blah blah blah...

I don't know. If there happened to be a mindbender around I suspect they should have had an easy time figuring out what was going on, at the very least I think they should have. However, its just lucky there were no mindbenders around in the entire city at the time I suppose.

I think the spies had one benefit going for them and that is the fact I doubt anyone playing in tuluk at the time expected something like that to happen. A lot of people from soldiers to jihaens were shocked that this occurred, in the same way people would be shocked at seeing a tank just rolling through the city. Its just something people didn't think possible for one reason or another so it would be very difficult to put one and one together. One of them also became a consort hulm noble too, right? I'm curious how this happened because I thought it was during the grey hunt that the winning person could chose a consort. During a ceremony, with templars present. I guess muk didn't show himself in this one. Then again if it just happened later with no oversight or approval, its some more good luck.

At the end of the day considering how beneficial it was to the lirathan order, I'm kinda hoping to see log with oralia negean as doing a little cameo, laughing in the shadows say, 'Good, everything is going according to plan' before giving a classical evil laugh. Or a log showing how these character were clearly far more special/ talented/skilled/mystical then most to have gotten that far.

I think the role play of these character was good though, I have nothing against the players who played these characters, and I am enjoying the logs and I am really hoping to see their bios. Its probably just the cynic in me when I think that most PCs would not be able to pull this off without the staff's approval and their utmost blessing. But these PCs did in the end so what do I know.

I don't know. If there happened to be a mindbender around I suspect they should have had an easy time figuring out what was going on, at the very least I think they should have. However, its just lucky there were no mindbenders around in the entire city at the time I suppose.

Have you ever heard of the term 'security through obscurity?' Don't look like something you need to target and you won't be targeted. It doesn't always work, but there you have it.

These were spies. They went in with a specific mission, but their primary purpose before being told their later goals was "avoid the notice of the templarate" and they were given specific instructions representing years of training. As I said earlier, we expected at least one of them to get caught at some point, likely due to a screwup. The whole point of being a spy is to avoid notice. If you have a templar interrogating you, you are boned (I believe we went so far as to let each player know that if they ever got interrogated, they had essentially lost). Again, spy operation, compartmentalization of activities, etc...a lot was taken from fictional and real world accounts of how such things would work. For instance, as the plot and game progressed, each spy grew to know each other spy, so that was one more area of implication they could provide if they were ever interrogated...but they weren't, because they seemed normal, because they passed muster, etc.

You don't investigate people that seem normal, do you? Except...now, in Tuluk...you might. Because of this. This was also an intentional part of the plot--if the spies had been all captured/killed, we would've rolled with it and that would've made things amp up faster as far as Tuluki oppression PRIOR to the battle at Tyn Dashra...but that didn't happen, so we were able to utilize it later. This will (probably) be harder in the future because of the notoriety of this particular case, but certainly not impossible.

Each one had specific instructions to initially observe and report. They had to blend in and escape notice. And they did.

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I think the spies had one benefit going for them and that is the fact I doubt anyone playing in tuluk at the time expected something like that to happen. A lot of people from soldiers to jihaens were shocked that this occurred, in the same way people would be shocked at seeing a tank just rolling through the city. Its just something people didn't think possible for one reason or another so it would be very difficult to put one and one together.

Probably so. We kept a tight lid on OOC secrecy regarding the plot, and we had the luxury of being able to pick from a lot of players people that were trustworthy (we could see their karma/notes and know that they'd do a great job if given a chance to do so). We did stack the deck in that regard. A normal PC that wants to set up a spy network isn't going to be able to review account notes and karma of people involved and might well pick someone that has notes to the effect of their past OOC coordination with roles. We also staggered the entry of the spies and set them up to be autonomous precisely to prevent the kind of OOC sniffing that might occur around a plot like this--just in case people assumed "hmm, three people entering the game at the same time, must be that secret role call, I will watch them for OOC reasons and see what happens!"

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One of them also because a consort hulm noble too, right? I'm curious how this happened because I thought it was during the grey hunt that the winning person could chose a consort. During a ceremony, with templars present. I gues muk didn't show himself in this one, like the last either. Then again if it just happened later with no oversight or approval, its some more good luck.

Yes, that's exactly correct. When the Hlum existed, as the Grey Hunt finished, a new Hlum noble was selected as the winner. That noble could then either choose a consort that was also a commoner. And that's what happened. During a ceremony, with templars present. And if anything had slipped, then the plot would've been boned, and then the Hlum get wiped out faster than we on staff planned. I think we have a log of that. FWIW, we didn't orchestrate that. That was all PC action right there.

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At the end of the day considering how beneficial it was to the lirathan order, I'm kinda hoping to see log with oralia negean as doing a little cameo, laughing in the shadows say, 'Good, everything is going according to plan' before giving a classical evil laugh. Or a log showing how these character were clearly far more special/ talented/skilled/mystical then most to have gotten that far.

Nope. All mundane with skills representing years of training. And as far as "beneficial" is concerned, it really depends on how you look at it. Short term, perhaps...maybe. I mentioned somewhere else that any Zalanthan victory is a Pyrrhic one.

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I think the role play of these character was good though, I have nothing against the players who played these characters, and I am enjoying the logs and I am really hoping to see their bios. Its probably just the cynic in me when I think that most PCs would not be able to pull this off without the staff's approval and their utmost blessing. But these PCs did in the end so what do I know.

Yeah, I was about to say...ya'll some cynical people.

If you want to do this, you absolutely can. But you aren't going to roll up a PC right now, join the Legions, and say "I want to be a spy embedded in Allanak." You would have to spend years IC working on everything, from learning about the culture of Allanak to passing as an Allanaki...etc. The same goes for the opposite, or for being a Kuraci spy embedded in either city-state doing this or that. The long game is what you'd have to go for, and that'd also depend on PC leaders willing to push for the long game and not short-term gains that are easier to realize. There's the possibility of failure. And yeah, you'd need staff willing to help (there are some things that would require staff assistance, probably not as much as you'd think though--just very basic stuff).

Like I said, we accelerated the process of what could have been achieved IC, and not much more than that.

Spy stuff is one of my favorite things in the game if done correctly/played out well. It relies on secrecy, not just IC, but OOC. You have to pick the people IC that you can trust, and they have to have people they trust, and so on. Any link in a chain can be corrupted, so you have to make sure there's a short chain or a set of trustworthy people, and then that's where you have the potential of OOC plot leakage. There's nothing worse than a plot ruined because someone blabbed to someone else (sometimes even in a well-meaning way) before it came to fruition.

Revealing these logs (as more come in/get posted) will show a few things, I hope:

what was going on behind the scenes prior to and after the HRPT--like, what led up to it all, what these spies were doing, etc

the kind of intrigue/plotty stuff that people sometimes hint at saying "happens all of the time" behind the scenes, but don't ever show it since they didn't have a log/etc (if you have logs of this stuff and it passes the rules of this subforum, please put in a request and I'll do my best to help facilitate posting after review)

you can do this, too. you might not be successful, you might die in the process...but with effort, skill, luck, and not blabbing to people about your OOC plans with the role (this part is pretty key!) you can absolutely be involved in this kind of thing.

I understand what you are saying and it does makes for a more interesting and fun game. However, it does feel like in this case some of Tuluk's natural defenses against this sort of thing was overlooked in favor of providing a more enjoyable experience, namely the vnpc and npc templar presence. Again its fair what you said, the place is full of people, you can't expect to investigate everyone's history thoroughly if there was no reason back then, it makes sense.

On the same thought process, I should be able to make a character that slaughters people in the dead of night in the streets of tuluk. It wouldn't be hard to make them someone who had no reason to be investigated or just aren't really around to be investigated. Sure after several murders you might oocly ask me to stop and deduct karma because all i do is craft somewhere with my mind barrier all time and murder people but unless the PCs playing the game catch me and bring me in for questioning or specifically point them out my PC should get away with it. In no shape or form would you ever bring the virtual/npc world to life in order to assist the PCs in identifying my PC.

I hope this is the case because this seems like there is much more potential for fun. Perhaps the serial killer example is a bit too extreme. When you say i can do this too and I may or may not be caught, do you mean that the only way I get caught is if a PC and only a PC feels they have reason to suspect me just like those PCs did? The only reason I ask this is because if this isn't the case, then it feels like the entire thing is biased. And you are totally right this probably stems from a very old cynicism, probably older them me at this point and there was a term for it back in the day, 'THE IMMS EAT MY BRAINZ', I think?

Again I think the entire spy plot was really cool. I just hope the same curtsey they had in terms of difficulty in caught is extended to every PC attempting plots (and I'm not saying it hasn't been either, again just probably my own misguided cynicism in thinking otherwise). In which case playing muggers, murders and other criminals in tuluk should be as viable as anywhere else in the known as long as get sent to a jail cell in tuluk or be in a position to be suspected/questioned.

These logs show you can play a bard and have drinks in the tavern. I'm still waiting to see "Exist under the nose of those best equipped and whose job it is to root this sort of thing out" part. Or even an acknowledgement that this character is a spy.

Maybe it's all just too subtle for me.

The fact that these people were communicating anything sensitive over the Way suggests they either had extra staff protections, somebody really dropped the ball or someone made a decision not to investigate. I like to think it was the last of the three.

In no shape or form would you ever bring the virtual/npc world to life in order to assist the PCs in identifying my PC.

I can say with certainty that this is a false statement.

Nor should it be something that should happen. VNPC/NPC reactions and actions cover loopholes that PCs simply can't or aren't currently available to respond to. If no PC caught you waying to someone else that you were going to kill the God-King, and the IC world's laws indicate that with a near certainty someone would have caught that, then VNPC/NPC response is not only valid, but should be expected.

In no shape or form would you ever bring the virtual/npc world to life in order to assist the PCs in identifying my PC.

I can say with certainty that this is a false statement.

Nor should it be something that should happen. VNPC/NPC reactions and actions cover loopholes that PCs simply can't or aren't currently available to respond to. If no PC caught you waying to someone else that you were going to kill the God-King, and the IC world's laws indicate that with a near certainty someone would have caught that, then VNPC/NPC response is not only valid, but should be expected.

Whole-heartily agree. The world can be a lot more populated than it appears to be from just NPC positions.

This is dragging us off topic, though.

Logged

janeshephard: You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Miradus: He's not some weird mental abomination. He's just a guy on the internet.

I understand what you are saying and it does makes for a more interesting and fun game. However, it does feel like in this case some of Tuluk's natural defenses against this sort of thing was overlooked in favor of providing a more enjoyable experience, namely the vnpc and npc templar presence. Again its fair what you said, the place is full of people, you can't expect to investigate everyone's history thoroughly if there was no reason back then, it makes sense.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. I think you are ascribing godlike powers or impassible barriers to entry for either city-state. I think you are also assuming that the virtual world and NPC templars weren't taken into account. Both assumptions are incorrect. Given your restating of your cynicism I'm not sure why you would believe this but take it for what it is worth.

Quote

On the same thought process, I should be able to make a character that slaughters people in the dead of night in the streets of tuluk. It wouldn't be hard to make them someone who had no reason to be investigated or just aren't really around to be investigated. Sure after several murders you might oocly ask me to stop and deduct karma because all i do is craft somewhere with my mind barrier all time and murder people but unless the PCs playing the game catch me and bring me in for questioning or specifically point them out my PC should get away with it. In no shape or form would you ever bring the virtual/npc world to life in order to assist the PCs in identifying my PC.

This is not on the same thought process at all. You're comparing a plot in which PCs were set off on their own and could have been caught, but weren't...to no plot, just hack and slash herpity derp. This isn't even the first time a PC has been in a scenario masquerading as something else. It has happened successfully two other times. Both times, staff were involved in the process as it helps to flesh out the virtual world. Both times, we set up rules for what would get them caught (virtually as well). We absolutely would help assist in identifying your serial killer slasher that has no real plot behind it whatsoever.

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I hope this is the case because this seems like there is much more potential for fun. Perhaps the serial killer example is a bit too extreme. When you say i can do this too and I may or may not be caught, do you mean that the only way I get caught is if a PC and only a PC feels they have reason to suspect me just like those PCs did? The only reason I ask this is because if this isn't the case, then it feels like the entire thing is biased. And you are totally right this probably stems from a very old cynicism, probably older them me at this point and there was a term for it back in the day, 'THE IMMS EAT MY BRAINZ', I think?

Yeah, your cynicism is bleeding through pretty strong at this point.

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Again I think the entire spy plot was really cool. I just hope the same curtsey they had in terms of difficulty in caught is extended to every PC attempting plots (and I'm not saying it hasn't been either, again just probably my own misguided cynicism in thinking otherwise). In which case playing muggers, murders and other criminals in tuluk should be as viable as anywhere else in the known as long as get sent to a jail cell in tuluk or be in a position to be suspected/questioned.

Work with the Staff, sending reports, asking questions, instigating 'plots' (Though I recommend you self-start/perpetuate most of them). You would be surprised what Staff pick up the ball on, and start fleshing out themselves.

Staff are people too, and seem to also want to start plots of their own. We refer to these commonly as 'railroad plots'. A railroad plot now and then is not only desired by Staff, but by Players too. I fail to follow your logic that it equals special treatment for Staff to also have fun with something and build up a plot from the ground up.

As i've grown, playing this game, I have realized the detriment to my PCs and the wrenches thrown into the plans have been some of the more fun experiences. From what Nyr is saying (IE: the Hlum possibly being found out sooner than Staff expected, and needing to roll with that), Staff seems good with improvising based on player interaction and conclusions with plots like these. It seems like this plot had a beginning idea (Spies from Allanak in Tuluk, for a specific reason), a middle (let's release the Spies into the wild and see what happens), a penultimate climax (Oh look, a couple of the Spies did something we didn't expect and joined the Circle), and the climax (Spy stuff happens).

It seems like a well rounded railroad plot to me. Just enough player interaction/decision to change what was planned, and the ultimate goal seemed (correct me if i'm wrong?) carried out.

Logged

"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

The fact that these people were communicating anything sensitive over the Way suggests they either had extra staff protections, somebody really dropped the ball or someone made a decision not to investigate. I like to think it was the last of the three.

Why not option four: it wasn't as sensitive as you (the OOC observer knowing OOCly that everyone involved IS a spy that managed to do damage to Tuluk) think?

I don't want to start a conversation about another plot or topic entirely, but for those of you saying or thinking this couldn't be done by normal PCs, I very much challenge that point.

Like Nyr says, you can do it, but you will have to spend more time working at it. A former PC of mine involved in the fire and riots in Allanak a few years ago ended up in a position to play spy for both sides, with Allanaki Templars wanting to use him to infiltrate Tuluk, and Tuluki Templars wanting him to return to Allanak as part of their sekrits. Being a good Allanaki patriot (albeit a radical one who ate dead people and burned shit down), my PC played along with the northerners and actually started taking lessons on Tuluki customs and etiquette, was given a new name, fake story, so on and so forth. If he hadn't met his end during an untimely jaunt back to the Labyrinth, I'd have had to put in a lot of effort to achieve big things, but they were achievable.

Have realistic expectations for the effort and time it will take to accomplish your goals and you'll enjoy things more.

Logged

All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

You have a friendly basketball game at the company picnic. Team A has some fairly athletic but normal people. Team B has the same except a dominating world class center. Team A drives for layups and are rejected repeatedly because the guy is just too good. They can make some outside shots but the paint is his. Suddenly the boss of the company, seemingly no different athletically than the rest of Team A, comes off the bench and drives by the center for a layup. I don't think you'd have to be very cynical to wonder if the center let the Boss slip one past.

I genuinely wish to know how these spies have gotten around to surviving a certain PC, who, for years both IC and OOCly, has been known to be able to put an end to pretty much every crimes ranging from petty dissing of a Tuluki noble in private to other major plots without mercy, while these spies are able to survive for years without ever being discovered, not one of them? To me, they would have had to go around without thinking about what they do, without having their past known and without (no background mention of said past, reasoning for who/what they are, no current bio, etc..) "acting" as spies AT ALL until the precise moment they would all be ready to act together. How is that even possible? I think it's a fair question if you've posted the log.

This PC -was- known to be around during the time the spies were also around and I just don't understand how that PC would never have spied back/researched/observed these PCs when said PC was known to almost stalk pretty much every citizens of Tuluk - ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THE MAJOR POSITION THAT ONE OF THE SPIES ACHIEVED - Talk about a major lack of background checking when said PC was also known to background check petty warrens pickpockets.

I'd like to know how it really all went down, otherwise it just sounds like that certain PC was told on an OOC level (there's no real way on an IC level that she would be told realistically speaking..) not to mingle with that plotline, otherwise it would be shot in the foot a day after it was even attempted, like so many other plots were ended by the same PC in the past.

I think many players just don't dare openly questioning the reality of this plot when in fact it would certainly teach many of us who never dared attempting something like that because of said PC mentioned being all-knowing about mostly everything and everyone. I understand that things may now be different, but it certainly wasn't during that plotline.

I also notice in the log that nobody thinks except some vague thoughts by one PC at the end.. Is that the trick to it all, no thinking..?

« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 10:27:54 PM by Malken »

Logged

“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;But now I am a great king, the people hound my trackWith poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Malken's questions are pretty much my questions about this. Tuluk has the reputation of nothing illicit being able to get past the Templarate, and yet this somehow did. I'd rather it come out that "yes, strings had to be pulled in an effort to create a better Tuluk" than success being achieved by something so meta as not using Thinks. The middle ground - that these characters really did succeed on their own skills and luck without any OOC protection - is just something I haven't seen proven yet.

On a related note, I think it's quite apropos that a thread about conspiracies is filling up with posts about conspiracies.

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janeshephard: You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Miradus: He's not some weird mental abomination. He's just a guy on the internet.

Let's pretend that I haven't seen them together more than on one occasion, Tuluk is ICly and virtually full of PCs like that one like you mention on your second point.

Yeah, like Cutthroat says, maybe part two will show us that all the Faithful Ladies of Tuluk were in it and were planning to overthrow Muk Utep, which is why now there has been changes (I'd seriously buy that if it was the reason. Muk Utep might have been stringing them along because he's a major troll and was waiting for the big surprise party before popping the balloons!).

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“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;But now I am a great king, the people hound my trackWith poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Something that's weird about this log is (likely) essential people that were around during that time are still around and playing PCs. I thought the log submission process took that into account (if IC events are still relevant, or will remain relevant, they aren't disclosed on the GDB/the website).

Color me conservative, but I was a little disappointed to read about this on the GDB.

Logged

"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

People are human (silly, I know), meaning they make mistakes, think things are unimportant when they are important, and basically fuck up sometimes.

I bet a lot of Tuluki Templars were putting their feet in their mouth after the last HRPT.

Please, there are human mistakes and then there are obviously disregarded "mistakes". The PC I'm talking about and that we all know who I refer to wasn't the kind to make "mistakes" and to just, out of major coincidences, allow every single spies to pass under the radar this time. If even one of them had been caught, then chances are that this PC and other like her would be on a serious red alert, doing major background checks on every single PCs bumped into (Tuluk is always so few of PCs that it's nearly impossible that every single one of them would have managed to stay under the radar for so long, unless something that we don't know about yet was going on (hey, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt as well).

As much as I think that I'm the old cynical grumpy bastard of the GDB, I feel like you're on the other side of the spectrum, the blind Armageddon cheerleader who is unwilling to agree that sometime fishy decisions could be made by Staff and players alike, and this is one example where there are way too many coincidences and "luck" involved.

It also seems like you're wanting to shut this discussion rather quickly with your next post about the log. If the log has been posted, then my (and many others') questions are legit. Also, what I refer to, and that I've been told by Nyr in the past, isn't some major Tuluki secrets anymore, it's in the docs. Tuluki Templars have mindreading capabilities and Nyr himself agreed that this was a known aspect of the game.

I think that sweeping my concerns (well, not so much concerns, since I'm more awfully curious than concerned) wouldn't do much good because I have a feeling that most questions during the Staff/Player meeting will be centered around stuff like that.

By some miracle and luck, EVERY spies have managed to keep under the radar and survive what MANY players have been complaining about Tuluk for years, which is that it's nearly impossible to start major plotlines/crimes that are not in agreement with the Faithfuls because of said Faithfuls power to be ever-seeing, but because it's a Staff-ran plotline, it's suddenly possible and not only possible but lead to the expected ending.

I would even go as far as asking if we could see these PCs' backgrounds and bios (if said PCs are out of the game, of course) so that we can see the kind of background and bios that would be allowed in game AND allow us to survive the ever-seeing Eye of Mordor Tuluk.

Thank you kindly for your time.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 01:34:13 AM by Malken »

Logged

“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;But now I am a great king, the people hound my trackWith poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

I don't mean that in a 'mean' way, I just see you poke your head up for angry sort of rant posts every now and then, especially if they're targeted towards the degradation of the game and Staff rah rah rah. I vaguely remember that you haven't played in a while, which may contribute to your cynical attitude towards the game.

I'm not a cheerleader as much as a realist. People make mistakes, even people who apparently 'don't make mistakes'. PCs played by people make mistakes, because the people playing them are human, and make mistakes.

Derpy spies will likely get caught -- judging by the log, these were deep cover almost sleeper cell spies who were virtual years in the making. I imagine there were several opportunities for them to get caught, and somehow, they didn't. I doubt that was because of Divine (Staff) intervention, and more the error of PCs, and also that "Tuluk" didn't see it coming.

Although that does beg the catch 22 question of Muk seeing 'everything' coming, so maybe he wanted this to happen? That's a dose of weird.

Logged

"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

I've also run similar kinds of plots on various PCs over the years, in Tuluk and Allanak, as a PC with no Staff intervention or encouragement. I've also never complained about the 'overbearing nature' of Tuluki Templars or how they find out about stuff and shut it down. I think it's jumping to conclusions to state 'because this is Staff run, it will not fail'. Just as it would be as silly to state 'because it is player run, it is doomed to fail'. These are black and white statements that are incongruent with reality.

The vocal minority in this case are people who want to be criminals and not play by the rules. They want to lie to one or many sides, and get away with it, every time. They want the people they're working for to be idiots, or somehow not catch on. Meanwhile, the true 'idiot' is the PC planning out the elaborate spy scheme. They complain (rather loudly) on the GDB that the crime code in Tuluk is broken, or that Templars are over-powered, and so on, when they are caught, but usually fail to realize the common denominator in their 'plot failing' was the man/woman in the mirror.

While these spies may have had a leg up, in that they had much of their virtual time pre-character creation already spoken for (Which arguably could be the most difficult part), they seemed to act accordingly and not get caught. Hindsight, 20/20, etc. We can speculate all we want, but the result is clear by IC events, and with (seemingly) little Staff intervention.

Logged

"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

I don't mean that in a 'mean' way, I just see you poke your head up for angry sort of rant posts every now and then, especially if they're targeted towards the degradation of the game and Staff rah rah rah. I vaguely remember that you haven't played in a while, which may contribute to your cynical attitude towards the game.

I'm not a cheerleader as much as a realist. People make mistakes, even people who apparently 'don't make mistakes'. PCs played by people make mistakes, because the people playing them are human, and make mistakes.

Derpy spies will likely get caught -- judging by the log, these were deep cover almost sleeper cell spies who were virtual years in the making. I imagine there were several opportunities for them to get caught, and somehow, they didn't. I doubt that was because of Divine (Staff) intervention, and more the error of PCs, and also that "Tuluk" didn't see it coming.

Although that does beg the catch 22 question of Muk seeing 'everything' coming, so maybe he wanted this to happen? That's a dose of weird.

What does it matter if I play or don't play anymore? I've been playing this game for like.. Jesus, I'm old. If you take all the hours I've spent on that game, I would probably be in the top 10 of people who have spent the most time ever on Arm. I love Arm, I care about Arm, that's why I make angry sort of rant posts every now and then (You can say I'm the Adam Sessler of Armageddon). Do I still even play anymore? I haven't played in a month and a couple of weeks, I think, but then I've put in a storage request like five days ago with the thought that maybe I'd want to play again, but I like to think that all is fair and square in game, rules-wise and decisions wise. If a Faithful power was too ridiculously powerful to the point that it was politely asked that she would "tone it down" a bit for the sake of the plotline, then I like to think that it will now be like that for everyone else. Like I said, changes were made and maybe because of IC stuff that happened during the plotline? I said that I was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

So I'm sorry that you can't shut me up because I do not reply to your lame "Do you even lift, brah?" question with a negative answer. Yes, I still think about Armageddon almost daily and yes, sometime I think of coming back, if you can think of a month of break has "leaving the game".

Being realistic is fine, but like I say, too many coincidences and "laissez-passe" has been giving, or at least that's the impression that I get, during that plotline to allow the special PCs to do their "thang".

Tuluk not seeing coming spies? C'mon, Tuluk sees SPIES in every citizens, non-citizens, pets and whatever crawls the streets. That's what Tuluk is ALL ABOUT. Muk Utep and all of his "children" are paranoid to a T. They see spies and evil-doers in everyone that does not walk the walk and talk the talk, and even then.

I don't see how anyone would be able to keep from thinking about what their true purposes are.. The harder you try not to think of something, the more often you think about it.. So how did they keep from remaining a sleeper cell? Perma-mindshield? Maybe.. But how do you shield your past from someone who can glance at it? Like I said, maybe the other logs will reveal it.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 01:53:14 AM by Malken »

Logged

“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;But now I am a great king, the people hound my trackWith poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

The vocal minority in this case are people who want to be criminals and not play by the rules. They want to lie to one or many sides, and get away with it, every time. They want the people they're working for to be idiots, or somehow not catch on. Meanwhile, the true 'idiot' is the PC planning out the elaborate spy scheme. They complain (rather loudly) on the GDB that the crime code in Tuluk is broken, or that Templars are over-powered, and so on, when they are caught, but usually fail to realize the common denominator in their 'plot failing' was the man/woman in the mirror.

We're talking about SPIES, here, Tuluk's #1 enemies of the state. Not petty crimes or dumbasses attempting to burn down the Sanctuary.

How do you know it's the vocal minority? People are just afraid to say that this plot line goes against anything Tuluk-doc-related because angering the Staff is not the best of ideas. I'm just the dumb fuck who's taking the hit and saying outloud what many thinks, but then, you can argue that I could also be alone in thinking that since neither of us know what the majority thinks, only Faithful Ladies would know that (hah - hah, an IC joke).

Anyway, like I said, you and I are both edges of a spectrum that will never agree, so there's no point in arguing with you (no offense, I've known some of your past PCs and you're a great RPer/player, I just tend to disagree most of the time with you on the GDB) so I'll wait and see. Hopefully this won't be swept under the carpet and I'd much rather have answers to my questions via another log than with OOC answers, to be honest.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 01:55:54 AM by Malken »

Logged

“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;But now I am a great king, the people hound my trackWith poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

We've agreed several times on the GDB, and I imagine we will agree and disagree with each other many future times.

I think we will both get what we ask for in a way -- I imagine this isn't the first and last log in this respect, and as such, further information will be divulged. I'm not even a fan really of these being added so quickly to the history page (Historically, history additions were few and far between, and while I like the increased rate at which stuff is getting added, i'm not sure if it's 'world news' to add things like that so quickly).

Logged

"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

We've agreed several times on the GDB, and I imagine we will agree and disagree with each other many future times.

I think we will both get what we ask for in a way -- I imagine this isn't the first and last log in this respect, and as such, further information will be divulged. I'm not even a fan really of these being added so quickly to the history page (Historically, history additions were few and far between, and while I like the increased rate at which stuff is getting added, i'm not sure if it's 'world news' to add things like that so quickly).

Well, to be honest with you, I'm pretty surprised as well that this log was even posted, so I guess you're right, we do agree on some stuff, heh.

Logged

“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;But now I am a great king, the people hound my trackWith poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

The vocal minority in this case are people who want to be criminals and not play by the rules. They want to lie to one or many sides, and get away with it, every time. They want the people they're working for to be idiots, or somehow not catch on. Meanwhile, the true 'idiot' is the PC planning out the elaborate spy scheme. They complain (rather loudly) on the GDB that the crime code in Tuluk is broken, or that Templars are over-powered, and so on, when they are caught, but usually fail to realize the common denominator in their 'plot failing' was the man/woman in the mirror.

I've never played a criminal in Tuluk for one thing. The stuff written about templars cracking down on even the pettiest crimes with mind powers seems true in my personal experience. It seems like you are attempting to cast anyone who dissents into a bad light.

Although that does beg the catch 22 question of Muk seeing 'everything' coming, so maybe he wanted this to happen? That's a dose of weird.

That's less a dose of weird, and more in line with the lore of the city. Muk Utep widely claims to possess precognition throughout the history of Tuluk, and it even explains how he is able to keep a psionic/supercop templarate in check for centuries.

Perhaps stranger are the events surrounding what was allowed to happen. Sometimes, I wonder if Tek and Muk aren't just playing izdari in some necroverse, and it goes something like: "Hey, I'll help you do some restructuring if you let me have that thing you know I want."

The vocal minority in this case are people who want to be criminals and not play by the rules. They want to lie to one or many sides, and get away with it, every time. They want the people they're working for to be idiots, or somehow not catch on. Meanwhile, the true 'idiot' is the PC planning out the elaborate spy scheme. They complain (rather loudly) on the GDB that the crime code in Tuluk is broken, or that Templars are over-powered, and so on, when they are caught, but usually fail to realize the common denominator in their 'plot failing' was the man/woman in the mirror.

I've never played a criminal in Tuluk for one thing. The stuff written about templars cracking down on even the pettiest crimes with mind powers seems true in my personal experience. It seems like you are attempting to cast anyone who dissents into a bad light.

The operative word here is 'seems' true. It is true some of the time, depending on the Templar PC. Most of the time, it isn't. I have quite a bit of experience playing a Tuluki Criminal, both in Undertuluk (Anti-System) and through proper channels (System). I just think the people that bitch about Templars Hatin' are usually people who got the short end of the stick, and they want to complain vocally about it. I don't think that means it's 'the way it is'.

It's sort of proven by you saying you have never played a criminal in Tuluk, but you think that's how it is. I have played a criminal in Tuluk, and believe from my experience that isn't the case. I imagine the truth is somewhere in-between these extremes.

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"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

i think the imms have the right to manipulate PCs' fates, but in my opinion, if the staff care enough about a PC's plots to take vNPC/NPC action to end those PCs' plots, then they really should make a fair exchange with that player in return.

What I really dislike is when my plots are ended abruptly by staff-mediated action but that I don't really feel like I'm appreciated for playing the parts of the PCs who get killed in arena fights or by imm-controlled bandits or whatever. I keep losing my precious PCs and I don't ever get much more than a "Sorry bout that!" when they die, if anything at all.

There is something the imms could do for me... for my account, that would make me forgive all of the recent PCs I've lost to their actions, but it hasn't happened yet. I'm not asking for much... just some of the coded recognition and benefits that other players get when they try to do something in the gameworld and fail due to imm action... something that starts with a K.

The pbase clamours for staff run plots, the staff run a plot, and people want to critique it for style and realism? I mean...I understand the nature of these gripes, but...I just feel like this falls under suspension of disbelief.

Do you have a good chance of getting [found out] as a scum type in Tuluk? Oh yes. But if it was going to happen every time, they wouldn't need armed guards, would they? They would know where the criminals are and what they were going to do. Also, just the sheer ratio of commoners to templars dictates that most observation without probable cause is going to be cursory and infrequent.

If these people were sleeper agents, and they got watched on a day when they were cleaning their armor or writing songs, or just living a normal day in their years-long Tuluki lives, what is there to discover? Not a lot. Next victim.

Also, most totalitarian states make it their business to root out spies with extreme prejudice. They might not have [unnatural] abilities, but they tap phones, use cameras, GPSs, etc, and still spies slip through their fingers. Why would we suppose this to be any different?

Sorry to admit, but I skimmed over a lot of the posts because they tend to say the same things.

(this is just a noob like me's opinion on the matter)

I think the reason why this was permitted to happen by His Faithful ladies and Muk Utep himself and looked over, is because Muk Utep, apparently being the omnipotent individual he is, knew that the spies would amount to virtually nothing in the end, and simply allowed for the fiasco out of humor. He probably could have ended it at any point in time if he so decided that his life was in direct threat.

Maybe staff will answer the various questions about how much (if anything) the v/N/PC templarate knew about these spies before the HRPT, but a couple of things are worth considering:

Muk Utep and His abilities to predict possible outcomes and future events (as described in the Coming soon... posts in Staff Announcements). Even if the Sun King for some reason wasn't aware of the spies' identities, the outcome of their actions would have been known and measures taken if called for.

What did Tuluk actually gain from the HRPT? Without going into too much detail, I believe it's safe to say they forced Allanak to show their hand in several ways (use of deep cover spies, war strategies, diplomacy etc). Tuluk got rid of Isar's tree (which was an important site for the Jihaens, but hey.. the Lirathans returned to power) without considerable city-side casualties. The Lirathans got an excuse to wipe out undesirables such as foreigners and the Hlum who had become a bit uppity in recent times. The Tan Muark were destroyed to everyone's relief, although having a volcano in the backyard doesn't come off as wonderful right away. Muk also had His Templarate in a state where dissolving the Orders and merging them into one would meet the least resistance. Far from everything went Tuluk's way, but the benefits do appear to weigh heavier than the downsides to the situation.

All in all, my point is that these spies did not only hurt Tuluk but rather helped facilitate some of the desired changes in the city. Yes, that was the staff's intention all along but I hope my post shows some of the IC reasoning (regardless of what was or wasn't known before the HRPT).

I'm with Malken here. To argue that maybe just maybe some people could slip through the cracks because Tuluk is big and there are only a few lirathans makes frightfully little sense when you consider the facts: for one, magickers never casting spells and people talking smack about nobles behind closed doors have been lirathan'd, and for another, two of the spy pc's were not your typical quoet commoners, they were a freaking Hlum noble and his consort. I'm just not buying it. I am not buying into the arguments of anyone who wants to tell me that somehow, two people present at a ceremony where a pair of lowly commoners are elevated into the very city elite, that same ceremony attended by multiple lirathans no less, would somehow go fine entirely, without any lirathan whatsoever taking note of the true nature of what's going on.

So yeah, not buying it. Either the lirathan order so collectively dropped the ball that not a single one of them noticed that the people they were turning into nobility had not even been in the city for five years, or it was all a ploy to such an extent that only all of one PC could have known what really has went on.

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Quote

You take the last bite of your scooby snack.This tastes like ordinary meat.There is nothing left now.

Maybe this plot was less about creating conflict specifically within the plot itself, and more about opening up the city to different kinds of conflict and change, and making roles more viable that previously weren't. What the spies pulled off was just the start compared to what Tuluk did to itself in the chain reaction that followed, which involved more PCs and could continue to involve PCs if the playerbase's default attitude was to try something new, rather than complain about how it used to be as if things are still the same. That's not a slight toward anyone, or me saying that those complaints are incorrect for the time within the game that they were still relevant, because no two players have the same experience. But the longer we go, the more outdated the complaints are - for example, the complaints about Lirathans shutting down plots, when there aren't even Lirathans anymore, and no one really knows what PC Faithful are capable or incapable of doing on their own now.

Focusing on the big picture might be the imperative here. I would suggest we give the benefit of the doubt to players involved and wait for more to come out through logs, rather than possibly discouraging those players with criticism when the entire log isn't even out yet.

Speaking for myself, I was very aware that it would be easy to play a pretty much flawlessly secret spy - but that wouldn't have been fair to other players, the story, and wouldn't have been half as exciting. It was a fine line between making it painfully obvious, and painfully obscure.

I had to balance ooc and ic knowledge - both mine and other players' - as well as juggling adrenalin and whatever else was going on. For example - in the scene above, if a Faithful (or other PC) had been watching in on that scene - ooc they would have noticed that a Hlum guard is in play. (*brrrrin brrrrin* curiosity alarm bells!). If they were a 'bender they might have noticed that Alize was busy making sure her 'mate' wasn't about to sneak/come in and start asking awkward questions...and so on.

I think that struck a more subtle, interesting balance than:

think Oooh, my secret handler has just wayed because I'm a spy for Allanak. I'd better wall up immediately between making sure blah blah blah...

I really like your approach as described, Booya.

Also, it was a huge risk to use Adaren's name as a call sign. Clever too, with the possibly coincidental similarity to a real Master Irofel's name.

I don't want to start a conversation about another plot or topic entirely, but for those of you saying or thinking this couldn't be done by normal PCs, I very much challenge that point.

Agreed. Seems to be overlooked.

Quote from: a bunch of cynical people up in this thread

wowmuch cynicalvery cheatsuch lame

So...this is a thread for discussion of the actual log posted, and the majority (posted by a minority) response seems to be:

"I don't buy it. This is a bullshit plot. It wouldn't past muster IC and it should've been nixed IC. Someone obviously fucked up. Wait, no, the players cheated. Staff helped the players out in setting them up so staff cheated. Staff should've caught this by animating the world properly, I don't buy this whole thing. It's all contrived. Mindbenders! They'd know what is going on! Staff didn't animate the virtual world of the Tuluki templarate correctly! I demand you show me more so that I can be convinced that this was a legitimate plot!"

Well, for starters, this is a single log. From one PC involved. A very simple thing, meant as something to go in some sort of chronological order to progress through the overall plotline of the spies prior to the HRPT. I have about a half-dozen to sift through, some which cannot be posted due to existing PCs being mentioned (some which can possibly be edited). I hope to have some more.

Yet somehow, from this single log, a vocal minority of players take major issue with it, clamoring for proof, logs, whatever. Honestly, the way you (the vocal minority in general) are asking for it and how you are acting and how you've presented yourselves regarding this is disappointing. You seem more eager to find fault, to complain, to whinge...than you are to be excited and engaged about the game, that you could do the same thing if you pulled your head out of the sand (or some other cynical orifice). In fact, it makes me wonder--are you even excited and engaged about the game at all? Do you play out of a sense of obligation and duty and just go through the motions hoping to recapture that out-of-reach high of the golden years, back before x or y thing happened that made you jaded to the game? What does it say about you when your first response to the first log posted about special roles involved in an HRPT is "bullshit?" Is there anything that would actually convince you, or would you just try to shoot holes in that, too, until we handed over the raw code of the game and actual staff logs showing what happened, stamped by a notary public, at which point you'd claim they were doctored? What interest do you have in the story here and the story of the game and these characters? Do you actually want to know what happens next and what they did? No one is even approaching that, no--the vocal minority wants to know about fairness, about how it wasn't bullshit, about how this reeks of this or that, with others responding to that whether in slight agreement (as some of the above cynical posters) or in disagreement.

When/if more is posted, it will be posted because we're sharing the story behind this plot in a way that lines up with the rules of this board. If we reveal more about the background of other stuff going on that might have affected the PCs involved, then we will reveal that because we want to share the story and engage the playerbase. If and when we post more, I'm pretty confident all of the naysayers will still be naysaying, and more than likely (if it continues in this fashion at least) it will likely get moderated in the future, as it has little to do with the log posted. "Oh, but Nyr, you saying that just means it's a shitty plot and it will get holes shot in it!" Well, fictional hypothetical responder, I already said we took those things into account and had a larger story in mind, some of which may never be revealed openly as it can be more fun to develop IC (or OOC) theories about it. I think there are some things we could have done better and things that we could do differently for future plots (whether large or small) but we did the plot. What did you do, fictional hypothetical responder? Lob some phat logic bombs at an internet forum about how your fan-fiction plot would've been better because in the first log that you would post, you'd tell everything the reader wanted to know? If you doubt my word that we took a lot of things into account, why are you even reading this post? Sheesh, go put in a staff complaint, it'll make you happier!

Why do I post this? Because quite frankly, we on staff don't cater to anyone that approaches any game plot (or even just this one, or the game itself) with a Truther or Birther mentality about the things that went into it. We are here for the players that are willing to play the game and make us go "wow, that was a great scene," or "wow, that's just a great roleplayer, there--let's put them in a role!" or "holy cow, this player just did this thing with her PC and we can totally USE that in this other plot!" We're here for the players that, when presented with something that they don't immediately understand...they respond with considering how it COULD work, IC, rather than how it is a failure. We're here for players that see possibilities, intrigue, and mystery.

We came up with a plot. We involved players. We pulled off an HRPT. It had long-term effects on the gameworld, which was the intention. It was fun. We're posting logs here and there and we might put up more, the intent being to share some of the story that many may not have seen. We like the story of the game, we aim to move it forward with plots akin to this one that involve staff assistance and player involvement, and we hope that you would like to get involved in the future.

If not, there are other games out there that I hope will meet your expectations. For now, though, if you do wish to involve yourself here and in this game, it'd be nice if you kept your responses on topic and about the particular log.

Moderated a post that has nothing to do with the log. If you want to discuss your own anecdotal history of failure at specific plots more specifically than you've done so in the moderated post, please put in a request. I would be more than happy to discuss with you. If you want to appeal for more karma, please put in a request. If you want to discuss this log in particular please do so.

Thread moderated, again, as mentioned. Let's actually get on topic, any further posts will result in action beyond moderation. If you don't have anything to say about this particular log or the scene in question then maybe find something else to do with your time, you don't have to post here.

What interest do you have in the story here and the story of the game and these characters? Do you actually want to know what happens next and what they did? No one is even approaching that, no--the vocal minority wants to know about fairness, about how it wasn't bullshit, about how this reeks of this or that, with others responding to that whether in slight agreement (as some of the above cynical posters) or in disagreement.

I read the log posts, more than skimmed but less than scrutinized. I had a character alive during this, but not directly involved in any of it. She was more of an observer from a distance to certain aspects of the events. I, as a player, was mostly clueless and didn't realize that the whole spy stuff was done by players with sponsored roles, until I saw this thread. I thought it was just virtual stuff you built into the events to flesh out what happened.

So here's my answer to these questions, from the perspective of what I've just described on my involvement (or lack thereof):

I had trouble following the log, mostly because I had no context to draw from. I lost interest, then gained it back, intermittantly throughout.

Not really understanding what was happening, I'm not especially interested in what happened next.

I do have my opinions on the HRPT, but those opinions are irrelevant in this thread.

I think many people are not posting their opinion about the log itself, because it just isn't interesting enough to post about. If it was, I think you'd see more people chiming in with their opinion on the log, and fewer people chiming in on the events that the log was about. Perhaps those are the "non-vocal majority?"

Personally I'd love to know the details of what happened during the HRPT - but I don't want the "Tuluk's IC spin" on it or the last remaining Tan Muark's personal accounting of it. I'd be interested in knowing more of an OOC timeline of the events, from the perspective of the players and staff *directly* involved. So maybe - the player of one spy telling us all his observations of what happened. And compare with Nyr's observations of what happened. Compare again with whatever Lirathan or Jihaen was most involved, their player telling us their observations of what happened. And so on and so forth - all the "leaders" of each faction giving an OOC accounting of their OOC version of what happened.

That would definitely be interesting to me. But I like analyzing stuff like that, and I don't expect others to have a similar interest.

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Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Yeah, sure, you can retconn a thing a thousand ways in order to "make sense" of this though. I'd rather not gimp (removed) of one of their tools for information-gathering in a world where people probably seldom use think. Much rather see the idea of Lirathans (removed) retconned, if such a thing had to happen.

Also, discussion of (removed) skills probably not the best idea. Probably should edit your post to be more vague, Inks.

Edit by Bcw81: please do not share facts that are not common knowledge.