Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

Originally Posted by Wildhorn

What he posted is not crap. This is a very accurate view of WoW.

I personaly have 5 lvl 70. I experienced all game content but BT and Hyjal. I am exalted with pretty much all factions, I played both side horde/alliance. I am here since the very beginning. And guess what? Raids are not new content. They are just scripted encounter that alway act the same. The only things you need to beat those scripts are:

1) Gears for it
2) Know where to stand and when to stand there

ALWAYS. You will never see a raid boss not doing what he is supposed to do unless there is some bug in his script.

You may ask "Why do you keep playing WoW Wildhorn?"

Because there is nothing else on the market at the moment and Warhammer doesnt want to give me a beta invite (the bitches!).

But as soon as Warhammer release, I move to there. WoW should have been PvP oriented (WARcraft) but because of the 2 lead designers (PvE whore junky from EQ) WoW didnt evolve in the rightway.

Warhammer will be new content
Every fight will be different (a player is not scripted)
You can "respec" in so many different way, that you could spec 1 different way every day the whole year (that is another WoW problem, too many classes that does the same job.)

Btw, is not because wow have 9 million subscriber and it is popular that make it a good thing.
McDonalds is popular but it still to be crap food.

WoW at somepoint was good and could have been great. IMO, the release of MC destroyed any hope WoW could have to be and stay a very good MMO.

I don't understand why people feel the need to flame aspects of the game they don't enjoy just because others do. That side of WoW is your OPINION. Nothing more. You want PvP? Great, enjoy WAR. But that doesn't mean you need to go around bashing aspects of the game that others enjoy (clearly a good many people if statistics are to be believed).

Encounters are all different. You cannot legitimately boil them down to "stand there, DPS". MC? Yes. Some of BWL? Yes. Past that point, things were very different and nothing you can say is going to change that. The boss may be "doing what he's supposed to do" but that is what is different and reacting to it. A good deal of what a boss does is random these days. Its not so cut and dry. Stop trivializing it and make objective posts, not opinion filled rants that don't hold up any kind of basic discussion.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

Originally Posted by aznthecapn

I don't understand why people feel the need to flame aspects of the game they don't enjoy just because others do. That side of WoW is your OPINION. Nothing more. You want PvP? Great, enjoy WAR. But that doesn't mean you need to go around bashing aspects of the game that others enjoy (clearly a good many people if statistics are to be believed).

WoW is popular because... WoW is popular. That is the sheep-syndrom. People want to be like everybody else and want to be in the mass, not out of it.

And this is not that i love PvP that much, this is more they have yet to create a computer able to react to what I do.

Encounters are all different. You cannot legitimately boil them down to "stand there, DPS". MC? Yes. Some of BWL? Yes. Past that point, things were very different and nothing you can say is going to change that. The boss may be "doing what he's supposed to do" but that is what is different and reacting to it. A good deal of what a boss does is random these days. Its not so cut and dry.

I didnt say stand there and DPS. I said, "know where to stand and DPS" They added a lil "move-around" part to raid bosses. For the rest it is DPS/Heal/Tank, dont get more agro than tank, and GG. The hard part is to make everybody do it.

The difference between a 5man group and a 25man raid group? You only have to deal with 4 morons instead of 24 :P

Stop trivializing it and make objective posts, not opinion filled rants that don't hold up any kind of basic discussion.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

The Necessary Flaw in any MMORPG design is that content is consumed faster than it can be (reasonably) created. These games can not persist indefinitely (as some people seem to think they can), but rather they attempt to exist for longer periods of time simply by having more content and rewarding significant time investments rather than arbitrary "skill."

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

Originally Posted by Wildhorn

WoW is popular because... WoW is popular. That is the sheep-syndrom. People want to be like everybody else and want to be in the mass, not out of it.

For those who began playing after year one, this might be true for a small portion of them. I'd say that most people after year one joined for the same reason they would have joined on release but just waited for the price to drop. To assume the above for people playing from release (like me) is just bogus. I repeat what I said before: many, many people play for the social aspect of the game. For me, I don't know anyone in RL that is a gamer. Not through work or casual relationships. My wife isn't even a gamer. I play because it brings me close to those people.

Originally Posted by Wildhorn

I didnt say stand there and DPS. I said, "know where to stand and DPS" They added a lil "move-around" part to raid bosses. For the rest it is DPS/Heal/Tank, dont get more agro than tank, and GG. The hard part is to make everybody do it.

The difference between a 5man group and a 25man raid group? You only have to deal with 4 morons instead of 24

Clearly you don't know very much about the innerworkings of designing a boss fight and balancing classes around its necessities. I'm certainly not on the "inside track" for this information, but having been around and raiding for quite a while, I have some understanding. If you really sat down and thought about the complexities of sequences of boss fights and trash pulls and how the entire raiding system works, you wouldn't be reducing it all to "stand here, then stand here, then DPS, then heal" etc.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

wow's popular because it's by blizzard, has the warcraft theme going for it, is very open to casuals, and, IMO the biggest advantage, the graphics are very aesthetically pleasing. doesn't matter if you don't like the cartoony style, it matters how it bears on your eyes. that's what opens it up to the mainstream- they are the ones putting up the great bulk of the subscribers

as for raiding, it is fun to beat a good encounter, but that's all there is. trying not to say the raid game isn't based around tank/heal/dps is pretty short-sighted. the hefty majority of every raid is the same formula- trash, boss, use holy trinity. the itemization is totally built around this

my comparison for that is comparing "raids" in AC 1 to WoW, or in other words, EQ reaids. it's going to see what happens vs. going for items

really, if you had every item you wanted already, would you go raiding?

for myself, i still do like the pvp. the gameplay is a lot more dynamic and not as mechanical as most raid encounters. to be honest, the most fun i have in a raid is when something *doesn't* go according to plan

if raids were more dynamic in general and they tossed this holy trinity stuff, they'd be great. i always wonder how wow would be if it didn't have the eq-junkies behind it, and might have gotten something totally original at the end

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

As far as I'm concerned the OP can just quit and go cry about something else. I don't see why people always expect something like WoW to be perfect from the get go. Hey, it's not but you know what? It fulfills the requirements to be an MMORPG damn well. It's a work in progress, that is something everyone should always keep in mind and surprisingly (even though you don't probably don't think so) the dev team actually listen to us. WoW can't please everyone right off the bat and if you don't like it right now go ahead and cancel your account then wait for Warhammer.

If WoW failed so much I wonder why it has so many addicted to it. Blizzard sure did a great job on a failure, I wonder why their other great works like Starcraft, Diablo, and Warcraft(RTS) didn't have such a huge player base as WoW seeing as how they weren't failures? So I guess if it doesn't please you it just automatically fails? I love the logic ignorance.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

Originally Posted by aznthecapn

Raiding ladder was unacceptable from my point of view. Far too much content being out being cleared at the same time. They definitely catered to higher end "top 5%" guilds in this one and it feels, from someone midway through content (4/6 SSC, 1/4 TL), as though we are seeing so much content without experiencing it. I preffered the slow release of BWL -> AQ40 etc. Hopefully they learned from this.

Actually that is not why the raiding ladder failed (or maybe it is). You are only missing out on BT and Mt Hyjal. My perspective on raiding in TBC is quite simple - they screwed up raiding/guild progression with Kharazan (regardless of one likes the instance or not). That single 10 man entry point with weekly resets - followed by completely screwed/bugged up instances and artificial blocks. That hurt guilds and raiding very badly. I think Blizz was afraid that people cleared content too fast (faster than they could create it), but the way they tried to cope with the perceived problem failed miserably.

It is not hard to transition from 10=>25 man raids. What it was hard was to transition from 10 => 25 man raids when the 10 man are reduced to a single instance on a weekly reset and the 25 man are single night event (Gruul and Mag) and/or bugged / unbalanced on top of that. With long attunements to boot.

Actually, the raiding content in TBC is rather small compared to non raid content - on a subjective evaluation I'd put it at 10% or so of the total TBC content. It may be the more interesting one, but I think the "casual" vs "raider" arguments regarding Blizzard are a bit off. Raiding takes time, focus and effort. Not all people can afford to have a strict timetable enforced by raids. Or are not willing to do so. But wow has plenty of content for "casual players".

TBC lacks entry level 25 man instances that some players can go in greens or even not at top lvl and the raid still succeed at least on the initial bosses. It became a game of max min, using addons to stopcast, changing gear mid game, switching players for bosses.

On the PVP vs PVE while I certainly respect that people have fun in casual PVP of wow - hell I've entertained myself doing so (except when I had to do so in order to get the stupidly OP and easy to get gear in patch 2.0) - Wow is by no means a good PVP game. And, tbh while Wow innovated to a point in PVE (more perfected than anything else) Wow PVP is a poor mixture of FPS inspired maps and .. well, whatever. But it takes quite an amount of skill to be good at pvp - a different set of skills that high end PVE require.

So picking up at the question on whether I'd go raiding if I had every single item - sure I would if the raid was interesting - hell, the raid I had the most fun in TBC was a "blast from the past" into AQ40 - guild with a mix of invited ppl (not all lvl 70). We even kept the tradition of wiping in Huhu at 1% :P. Yes nostalgia at its best, but all raiders I know when I ask whether they preferred wow a year ago or now, the answer has so far been "before" without a single exception.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

WoW should have been PvP oriented (WARcraft) but because of the 2 lead designers (PvE whore junky from EQ) WoW didnt evolve in the rightway.

Saying this just made your OP entirely null and void. Warcraft 1, Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3 and associated addons were not PvP oriented, they were PvE just like World of Warcraft is.
If your pissed that WoW's PvP isn't what you want it to be then stop playing and wait for Warhammer Online or even Fury.
Everyone knows that World of Warcraft was focused on PvE right from the start and if it ever begins to focus on PvP than PvE, then that is when I'll quit.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

Looks like most of you doesnt understand or ignore what Wildhorn says. I agree with most of the stuff Wildhorn said but also disagree to some extent.
Sure WoW is just scripted bosses and all new instances is the same shit but different names and colors. Although many guys and girls play the game to "beat" the lore, which is more than just completing a scripted encounter. Who doesnt want to beat the crap out of the famous warcraft character Illidan f.e?

WoW has some PvP, but that wasnt even implemented in the original release, honor was introduced months later and then came BGs etc. WoW wont ever be PvP-oriented, it lives of the PvE and lore.

Summary:
WoW "content" is not just scripted bosses, its about the warcraft lore aswell. Ignoring the lore and you only got new boring scripted bosses + some crappy pvp.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

Mhm, I currently play Warhammer Beta, unfortunatly I can't tell anything about it because of the NDA, so I have to tell you from a "objective view".

Warhammer won't be the new uber game that makes everything better, at least I don't think that it will be that, but I hope it will make that part better that WoW lacks of...dynamic PvP.
I mean, when I go out and smash some enemies, even go to their capital city and beat the hell out of their leader, I don't want to respawn him after 30min. I want that city be mine or at least get it for our faction. That's the reason why I want to fight through 100's of enemy soldiers, take an epic battle against NPCs/bosses/players.
Killing an faction leader in WoW is just like every other pvp action in WoW, get in, achive goals, get honor, rinse and repeat.

Another example of my need, if I participate in RvR/PvP and do something great (kill Thrall e.g.) I want to see something happen.

You might think, what does this guy want? WoW isn't PvP. Yes that's right, WoW isn't PvP but WoW hasn't got any interresting non-raid endgame left. Woohoo we introduce a new zone called Skettis! Guess what? It's just another bleeding reputation grind to do!
You may say that there's some nice lore in BT or Hyjal, that could be I wasn't there due the lack of time and the massive suckage of our other raidmembers.

Raiding was ok, nothing else than moving around and pressing buttons but we've had a lot of fun in TS while flaming those who sucked at Gruul
You see, the reason why I had fun while gaming WoW was because of my mates in TS or even those stupid PuGs and randoms who did stupid stuff that was so incredibly silly that we just had to laugh.
So my endgame was hanging around with peeps in voice chats doing more or less funny stuff in WoW, but you can do that in other games too, EVE Online, Warhammer, Ultima Online, DaoC etc pp.

just my two cents

ps. Stenhord, the problem with Illidan is, that fucker respawns every week for your guild, and I can be beaten at any time by any other guild that's able to fight him, no uniqueness only the fact that you are on the ranking list of world 1sts, 2nds and so on.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

It's all about blinders and spotlights...

One could start to write a hymn on World of Warcraft, but there will be hundreds of haters that will start to tear it apart and make it look bad.

A dynamic world with custom housing and all that kind of stuff sounds great, there's no doubt about that. But something like that was the "free pvp" concept of Lineage2. It's great, you can simply knock everyone silly that talks bad about you and you can shut people completely off from some farming spots and thus make them unable to continue warring against you. This is surely fun, but only as long as both sides are more or less equal. Once one group gains an "untouchable" superiority, everyone else is no longer able to play the high end content if not by whoring for the big guys. Think about servers where there's a 2:1 ratio with 50% of the minority beeing alt-chars of the dominating faction it will be dead boring for the "Lords of Warcraft" and quite frustrating for the minority. This was one of the main reasons why I quitted L2 (the others were the great imbalance in PvP and the fecklessness of active supporters).

All that glistens is not gold.

There will never be some MMO without failure.

It really does suck that every "new content" is just another equipment whipeout, don't get me wrong, I really like to learn new raid encounters and even learning to farm them is fun to me. But instead of just letting them drop new stuff to farm, I'd love to get another system to enhance the stuff I'm wearing once the next addon is released instead of just trashing them and replacing them with new stuff. T0 was 5 man stuff that got replaced by T1, I'm okay with that, T1 was replaced with a better set in BWL, still ok with that because to be honest T1 was the first to make stuff like "spelldmg" popular, T3 was a different kind of Set in comparison to T1 and T2... But then there was level 70 and blue instance reward and you could toss your 40-man-raid-equip into the trash can. Though these item-resets are wonderful if you want to change your raiding character it's an easy start, coz at level 80 noone cares about the level 70 raid-equip and wears the same blues. But again all that glistens is not gold.

MMOs in general do suck in more than one aspect, but as long as there's nothing that sucks less, about all of us will continue playing them.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

Originally Posted by Nye

MMOs in general do suck in more than one aspect, but as long as there's nothing that sucks less, about all of us will continue playing them.

Yea, I think that concludes it.

I WILL try Warhammer, but I still cannot imagine that it's SO MUCH better than WoW.
WoW is just so... addicting. I hate it, but I love it.
I quit several times, and I started over several times.
I'm damned to eternal searching for a better MMO than WoW.
And still I doubt that there will be something so significantly better than WoW.
Maybe there'll be MMOs with an outstanding aspect X, but they suck at aspect Y.
WoW on the other hand rocks at Y and sucks at X.
And so on.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

Originally Posted by Meebo

Saying this just made your OP entirely null and void. Warcraft 1, Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3 and associated addons were not PvP oriented, they were PvE just like World of Warcraft is.
If your pissed that WoW's PvP isn't what you want it to be then stop playing and wait for Warhammer Online or even Fury.
Everyone knows that World of Warcraft was focused on PvE right from the start and if it ever begins to focus on PvP than PvE, then that is when I'll quit.

Sorry but Warcraft series is PvP. PvE was just to learn the game mechanic and to add to the lore. But once you reached the end of the game, you were going to Battlenet and fight other players (PvP).

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

I only watched 2 interveiws with the developers of Warhammer online and...
First one made me laugh a lot - "We don't want your money, we want your souls". Ok that's cool.
Second one showing two completely nerd idiots (leading game designers) saying how cool the elements of the game will be. Like "look you can make that ogre drunk and make him take a bomb to that castle's door, then they both blow up HOW COOL IS THAT I MEAN THERES NO OTHER GAME OUT THERE THAT CAN DO THAT" and this is an actual quote.
At that point I decided that if a WoW lifetime subscription is released, it's mine.

Re: Why WoW and its player base fail!

LOL @ Warhammer. i mean who rly wanna play a game like that..o well its ur time but imo WOW>Whammer

You bring so much arguements... we can only agree with you... retard

Originally Posted by overneathe

I only watched 2 interveiws with the developers of Warhammer online and...
First one made me laugh a lot - "We don't want your money, we want your souls". Ok that's cool.
Second one showing two completely nerd idiots (leading game designers) saying how cool the elements of the game will be. Like "look you can make that ogre drunk and make him take a bomb to that castle's door, then they both blow up HOW COOL IS THAT I MEAN THERES NO OTHER GAME OUT THERE THAT CAN DO THAT" and this is an actual quote.
At that point I decided that if a WoW lifetime subscription is released, it's mine.

Ok.... you wont play a game because the leading game designers use common language and are close to their players and give informations about what is going on, unlike Blizzard?