How much more would Asham do than the 4th line options we already have? And how much better is he that you had such a problem with him not being signed here.

For the record: He was signed in mid-August at a bit over league minimum salary. What does that tell you about how valuable he was to teams around the league?

Maybe he just didn't want to play here like I said earlier.

As for our current options. I like him more than Maltby and Draper, both of whom are not as good as our younger options. I'd take him over a guy like Downey who we're giving another chance to at training camp. I'd probably take him over Miller, since Miller is basically a worse version of Eaves.

So in my book, he'd be a guy that should be on our 4th line. If he was ever an option that is. Don't know if Holland ever contacted him or not. I do know, however, that someone like Maltby shouldn't be getting offers over someone like Asham.

Our puck possession and offense was fine without Modano. Hudler would have helped that. Once again, you're another poster who doesn't understand the idea of having a complete hockey team. And Modano is an old guy who can only help us for one year. He won't play after this most likely.

And some of those 4th liners shouldn't have been kept for another season, which is where a guy like Asham comes in. I'm mad because we chose worse options over him and now it's obviously too late to have enough money to pursue him anymore.

I never said we should downgrade from last year so don't attribute things to me that I never said. That's a lousy way to argue and you won't win. Your idea of a brilliant argument seems to be to misquote the person you're arguing against. How is not adding Modano and dropping Maltby a downgrade? ...

Modano adds more to the team than Asham could. Nor is Asham so special of a player that we won't have plenty of similar options next year if Modano retires.

And what 4th liners should we not have signed?

No one but you has said anything about Maltby, he's not signed, and will not be on the team next year except maybe in GR for an injury call-up. Draper was already under contract and on the cap anyway. Then we have Helm, Abby, Eaves, Miller, and Ritola. Five players for four spots. So you have to get rid of two of them to make room for Asham.

Asham isn't even that good of a fighter. Turn on some MMA if you're that desparate. This is a stupid complaint.

Modano adds more to the team than Asham could. Nor is Asham so special of a player that we won't have plenty of similar options next year if Modano retires.

And what 4th liners should we not have signed?

No one but you has said anything about Maltby, he's not signed, and will not be on the team next year except maybe in GR for an injury call-up. Draper was already under contract and on the cap anyway. Then we have Helm, Abby, Eaves, Miller, and Ritola. Five players for four spots. So you have to get rid of two of them to make room for Asham.

Asham isn't even that good of a fighter. Turn on some MMA if you're that desparate. This is a stupid complaint.

I was waiting for that MMA comment. And I just mentioned above what 4th liners we shouldn't have signed. There's nothing stupid about my complaint. You just don't see it my way that's all.

I was waiting for that. And I just mentioned above what 4th liners we shouldn't have signed. There's nothing stupid about my complaint. You just don't see it my way that's all.

Draper was already signed. Nothing could have been done about it this year. Neither Maltby nor Downey will be regular members of this team. At most they will get contracts to play in GR.

We already have to get rid of one of Miller, Ritola, Eaves, Helm, or Abby. So to sign Asham, we'd have to lose a 2nd (or not sign Modano, who adds much more to the team). Then, to have him actually play, you have to take a 3rd out of the lineup.

Not saying Asham would make the team worse (unless you take him over Modano), but he wouldn't make the team any better either. That's why I think it's stupid. It's irrelevant.

Draper was already signed. Nothing could have been done about it this year. Neither Maltby nor Downey will be regular members of this team. At most they will get contracts to play in GR.

We already have to get rid of one of Miller, Ritola, Eaves, Helm, or Abby. So to sign Asham, we'd have to lose a 2nd (or not sign Modano, who adds much more to the team). Then, to have him actually play, you have to take a 3rd out of the lineup.

Not saying Asham would make the team worse (unless you take him over Modano), but he wouldn't make the team any better either. That's why I think it's stupid. It's irrelevant.

Like I said already, our 3rd line was good enough without Modano, especially since he doesn't give us anything but a one night stand.

And yeah I'd take Asham over Miller. So I'd have Asham playing on the 4th line with Eaves and Abby. Ritola would get in if (when) there's an injury. Seems perfectly logical to me.

Like I said already, our 3rd line was good enough without Modano, especially since he doesn't give us anything but a one night stand.

And yeah I'd take Asham over Miller. So I'd have Asham playing on the 4th line with Eaves and Abby. Ritola would get in if (when) there's an injury. Seems perfectly logical to me.

So you're basically saying that you would rather have Asham than Modano.

Modano significantly improves the 3rd line and probably the 2nd PP unit, where as Asham just offers pretty average fighting ability. Certainly not a good enough fighter to protect anyone or 'keep the flies off' or whatever it is people think enforcers do.

Doesn't strike me as particularly logical. Looks more like someone just wants to see more fights.

So you're basically saying that you would rather have Asham than Modano.

Modano significantly improves the 3rd line and probably the 2nd PP unit, where as Asham just offers pretty average fighting ability. Certainly not a good enough fighter to protect anyone or 'keep the flies off' or whatever it is people think enforcers do.

Doesn't strike me as particularly logical. Looks more like someone just wants to see more fights.

I never wanted Modano, period. We were just fine without him after adding Hudler.

Once again, loading a team with players like Modano on every line isn't necessarily great. We've seen that in the past. I wanted a more balanced team, including on the 3rd line.

Our puck possession and offense was fine without Modano. Hudler would have helped that. Once again, you're another poster who doesn't understand the idea of having a complete hockey team. And Modano is an old guy who can only help us for one year. He won't play after this most likely.

And some of those 4th liners shouldn't have been kept for another season, which is where a guy like Asham comes in. I'm mad because we chose worse options over him and now it's obviously too late to have enough money to pursue him anymore.

I never said we should downgrade from last year so don't attribute things to me that I never said. That's a lousy way to argue and you won't win. Your idea of a brilliant argument seems to be to misquote the person you're arguing against. How is not adding Modano and dropping Maltby a downgrade?

Is that what I said?

That's not how I remember it. I remember Wings winning the Stanley Cup, then the next year going to game 7 of the SCF with an offensive 3rd line of Samuelsson-Filppula-Hudler. Adding Hudler doesn't make up for the loss of Samuelsson and promotion of Filppula going to the 2nd line.

If your argument is adding Hudler is an upgrade from last years team (the same team that nearly got swept in the 2nd round), then I agree with you. But adding Modano, which gives Wings the best 3rd line in the league and makes Red Wings as solid offensively as the cup winning team they had.

Why do you want to be a fraction better than the 2010 team that was nearly swept? Why not reach for the stars and be happy Holland is putting a team together that would rival the cup winning team of 2008?

All this over a 4th liner? Eaves-Abdelkader-Helm line looks pretty damn good to me. In fact, that is arguably the most solid, tenacious, defensive-offensive 4th line in the entire league. And you're mad because Holland didn't sign an older 4th liner from outside the organization?

Holland put together an awesome team this year, if you like winning and celebrating Stanley Cup victories, then you should be ecstatic with this lineup. Kenny has built a team to give us the best chance to win it all.

Arguably the top three 1st line in the league (with Zetterberg and Datsyuk paired up again) - CHECK!Arguably the most dominating 2nd line in the playoffs (with Franzen and Bertuzzi) - CHECK!Arguably the best 3rd offensive and puck possession 3rd line in the league - CHECK!Arguably one of the most well rounded and tenacious 4th lines in the league - CHECK!

And people are still bitching and moaning and crying. Does it ever stop?

That's not how I remember it. I remember Wings winning the Stanley Cup, then the next year going to game 7 of the SCF with an offensive 3rd line of Samuelsson-Filppula-Hudler. Adding Hudler doesn't make up for the loss of Samuelsson and promotion of Filppula going to the 2nd line.

If your argument is adding Hudler is an upgrade from last years team (the same team that nearly got swept in the 2nd round), then I agree with you. But adding Modano, which gives Wings the best 3rd line in the league and makes Red Wings as solid offensively as the cup winning team they had.

Why do you want to be a fraction better than the 2010 team that was nearly swept? Why not reach for the stars and be happy Holland is putting a team together that would rival the cup winning team of 2008?

All this over a 4th liner? Eaves-Abdelkader-Helm line looks pretty damn good to me. In fact, that is arguably the most solid, tenacious, defensive-offensive 4th line in the entire league. And you're mad because Holland didn't sign an older 4th liner from outside the organization?

Holland put together an awesome team this year, if you like winning and celebrating Stanley Cup victories, then you should be ecstatic with this lineup. Kenny has built a team to give us the best chance to win it all.

Arguably the top three 1st line in the league (with Zetterberg and Datsyuk paired up again) - CHECK!Arguably the most dominating 2nd line in the playoffs (with Franzen and Bertuzzi) - CHECK!Arguably the best 3rd offensive and puck possession 3rd line in the league - CHECK!Arguably one of the most well rounded and tenacious 4th lines in the league - CHECK!

And people are still bitching and moaning and crying. Does it ever stop?

I'm not so sure that Modano and Hudler are the kind of players you need to win on the 3rd line.

In 2008, our 3rd line was Cleary, Draper and Drake. You forgot that apparently. Grinders who were willing to go to the scoring areas and take punishment. I don't see that in Hudler and Modano. A 3rd line is the checking line, and neither of those guys can (will) check.

That's why I wasn't too keen on signing a 40 year old player to play on the 3rd line, even though that isn't a role that he's been accustomed to his whole career. You guys are all convinced that Modano will be great because he's a Hall of Famer and he skates fast, but we haven't succeeded in the past with having just skill on our 3rd line. What makes you think we will now?

I'd rather have checkers like Helm and Cleary on the 3rd line. I'd love to have Modano on our team many years ago to be a top 6 forward, but not now in this particular role. So yes, I wish that money went elsewhere.

He already stated he wanted to stay in Pennsylvania, that's probably why he signed for what he did. Bottom line is, we will have a solid 4th line of Abdelkader-Helm-Eaves hopefully with Downey getting his 40 games. Would I like to see a few more guys willing to throw em? Absolutely. Our 4th line is capable of skating and playing a defensively responsible game, as well as chip in offensively. As far as fighting goes, like I've said, Downey is all we'll get (If that even) for this season.

"Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct in which the score is kept."

People are excited because we have pretty boy scorers on our 3rd line, but you need to understand something.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you have constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force".

Everyone raves about Chicago's 3rd line last year, but that line had checkers and good defensive forwards on it. Just like our 3rd line in 2008.

Modano and Hudler have just never been known for that, and I have a hard time seeing that change. I'm just not going to get overexcited because we signed offensive stars. We need balance and not just scoring.

People are excited because we have pretty boy scorers on our 3rd line, but you need to understand something.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you have constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force".

Everyone raves about Chicago's 3rd line last year, but that line had checkers and good defensive forwards on it. Just like our 3rd line in 2008.

Modano and Hudler have just never been known for that, and I have a hard time seeing that change. I'm just not going to get overexcited because we signed offensive stars. We need balance and not just scoring.

I'm confused. Who's Hudler going to check when Modano has the puck? Or who's Modano going to check while Hudler has the puck. The third line will be a puck possession line, not checkers. You're so stuck on the checking aspect that you fail to realize this 3rd line will rival most other team's 2nd lines.

I don't see any reason why Modano can't score 30+ points with Hudler and Cleary as his wingers. I would say that you better be prepared to eat some crow, but you seem like the kind of person who would refuse to admit they were wrong, even if Red Wings sweep their way to the cup... you'll still probably wine and cry that the team won the cup without a "gritty" 4th liner or "enforcer".

You even admit this team is better than the cup winning 2008 team, and you're still bitching by insignificant s***.

People are excited because we have pretty boy scorers on our 3rd line, but you need to understand something.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you have constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force".

Everyone raves about Chicago's 3rd line last year, but that line had checkers and good defensive forwards on it. Just like our 3rd line in 2008.

Modano and Hudler have just never been known for that, and I have a hard time seeing that change. I'm just not going to get overexcited because we signed offensive stars. We need balance and not just scoring.

Detroit's main issue last season was with depth scoring and special teams play. I think Detroit addressed that in the offseason, and I don't think signing Asham would have been a huge improvement on the bottom six either way.

If Bertuzzi wasn't on the roster having Helm on the third line wouldn't have put us in a bad position when it came to strong forechecking on weaker lines.

And for the record, Detroit's 2009 team was dominant with skilled third liners. The only issue was select defensive gaffes, certain stars not performing to their potential, and injuries to key players which did them in.

People are excited because we have pretty boy scorers on our 3rd line, but you need to understand something.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you have constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force".

Everyone raves about Chicago's 3rd line last year, but that line had checkers and good defensive forwards on it. Just like our 3rd line in 2008.

Modano and Hudler have just never been known for that, and I have a hard time seeing that change. I'm just not going to get overexcited because we signed offensive stars. We need balance and not just scoring.

There isn't any rule that says the third line is a checking line. We have a team loaded with defensively responsible forwards. Zetterberg has been the forward typically used against the top opposing line for years. Our 4th line is already a checking line. We have plenty of balance. I wouldn't say Asham is any better defensively than Modano anyway. You only want him because he fights anyway.

I'm confused. Who's Hudler going to check when Modano has the puck? Or who's Modano going to check while Hudler has the puck. The third line will be a puck possession line, not checkers. You're so stuck on the checking aspect that you fail to realize this 3rd line will rival most other team's 2nd lines.

I don't see any reason why Modano can't score 30+ points with Hudler and Cleary as his wingers. I would say that you better be prepared to eat some crow, but you seem like the kind of person who would refuse to admit they were wrong, even if Red Wings sweep their way to the cup... you'll still probably wine and cry that the team won the cup without a "gritty" 4th liner or "enforcer".

You even admit this team is better than the cup winning 2008 team, and you're still bitching by insignificant s***.

Once again you make weak arguments by misquoting me.

This team is not better than 2008 and I never said it was. It hasn't even played a game yet and that team won the Cup.

This team is just better offensively. Since you seem to have a limited knowledge of the game, you equate that with it being a better team. That's not necessarily the case. Offensive skill is just one piece of the pie. The 2008 team was far more balanced than this team on paper.

And your statement about Hudler and Modano always having the puck is downright comical. This isn't video game hockey and they will actually have to play some defense on the 3rd line.

There isn't any rule that says the third line is a checking line. We have a team loaded with defensively responsible forwards. Zetterberg has been the forward typically used against the top opposing line for years. Our 4th line is already a checking line. We have plenty of balance. I wouldn't say Asham is any better defensively than Modano anyway. You only want him because he fights anyway.

This thread would be a lot shorter if that's all I wanted him for.

Care to back that statement up with what I said in this thread? Or did you just pull that out of thin air like the other guy is doing.

Asham does more than just fight. I've already expained why I think he'd be a better fit than some of our other 4th liners. I don't know how else to explain it to you.