On balance, I agree with this. Lurking, (back in the summer) I noticed a lot of anger and spite, just on the main boards. I also agree that I wouldn't risk being caught up in any FB group-I am very rarely on FB anyway, and it is weird how these things can develop a life of their own. As it is not clear who has been banned, or the link between their real name and e-hell handle, I would rather not know. I just remember feeling who I could and could not trust based on reading posts, with no way of knowing who those people are IRL. For those complaining about people being outed, it was actually someone on the thread back in October who said who was banned, not the Dame or the mod team.

But there's all this weird atmosphere about what's a secret and what's not, and I think it contributes to the anger levels. A longtime poster got banned by accident, was going to be reinstated, but then the ban ended up being upheld because she'd spoken to another ehellion about it--who was also a RL friend--and that person had defended her. Thus the ban stuck. And I know I'd definitely go to a friend for sympathy if I was banned unexpectedly from my favorite forum. But we were told we were supposed to keep it quiet if banned. But the mods will publicize other bans, and that's OK. And comments vanish off the FB page so that the conversation doesn't make sense anymore, and then the posts disappear entirely. The whole atmosphere feels like one where we all need to navigate an increasingly arcane set of rules about what is "private" and therefore bannable or deletable if we voice it, and what is not.

Ah, that makes sense. I am not really on FB much, so I'm not really sure what went down there. But I still think that some of the stuff that was revealed on the October thread had to be stamped out, it was pretty vile. Whatever secrecy there was, there was no excuse for that.

Which feels, in a way, like her opinions are acceptable as public matters while disagreement needs to be hushed and hidden.

I agree.

I also wanted to add that in the most recently deleted malware thread, there was a lot of snark coming from the Dame herself that would have gotten others at least warned if not gagged. Someone asked earlier what apologies were needed, and I think the snark is another thing for which there should be apologies.

I don't understand, really, genuinely don't understand, why people are so surpised that there is a stricter standard for posters than for the Dame and Mod team. (In some ways) They run the place! It is not a full democracy (thought there is the 'report to mod' button for posts that cross a line. This place would be unrunnable if everyone's opinion etc. was given equal weight.

It's not a democracy--it's more like a business, really (and not quite like the private house it's also often compared to), and the mods are the business owners. They have the right to make decisions regarding how to run their business. But it behooves a business to be diplomatic to its customers and to have concern for customer feedback. They don't have to, of course, legally, but they'll do better and make more money if they do.

The dame has repeatedly said that criticism of the forum should first be communicated through PM. It seems that EG has not done so. I am also not clear what EG wants; a perfect apology? Reinstatement of a banned poster that is not her? At a minimum her posts in the malware threads have, by her own admission, had nothing to do with malware. I think repeated purposeful derailing is also bad netiquette. It's also not a great idea to appoint yourself spokesperson for someone else's cause (hot_shaker).

One pattern I've seen is that even when forum critics may have valid points they often express them in rude or inappropriate ways which gets them written off by the admins. Then the people who agree with their points feel the admins are not listening or being unduly harsh. But the admins have good reason for a zero tolerance policy towards nonsense because of all the trolls lately.

If one is giving a friend, coworker, etc. constructive criticism often one goes to extra care to phrase things politely and sensitively - this being the internet the opposite tends to happen. Think about how it might feel to be on the other end of that feedback, being told you won't take responsibility - then when you do, that it's insincere - would you not start to feel like nothing is every good enough for some people, and be tempted to write all of them off?

This is not "members vs. admins" but there are a lot of people who seemed determined to turn it into that, which is sad.

Dame, does this mean that the poster who was banned for the actions of other people despite not breaking the rules herself has been reinstated?

That did make me very uncomfortable.

The most basic rule of this forum (and the site overall really) is do not bring trouble here.

If you are referring to the person I think you are, her name was never mentioned publicly by any moderator as having been banned. We don't typically announce gags or bans publicly unless someone is being a very obvious troll or troublemaker.

Her ban was lifted weeks ago, at least early November, by me, and she was notified of this. She may not have received that email because I kept getting repeatedly contact from her asking to be unbanned well after she was. However, I sometimes have bigger administrative fish to fry and do not have time to have repeated private communications over the same issues. There are very patient, long suffering members who are due a response from their messages to me and I still haven't had the time for any replies other than a quick, "I haven't forgotten you," or a quick "I'll get back to you".

You, Larrabee, have firsthand knowledge of how well private communication can work to resolve a problem and thus leaving all drama off the forum.

So, the question arises as to how people know she was banned. Since her user ID was not published to any Ehell affiliated site by any moderator, the only other logical explanation is that she has told people she was banned. And some of those people have taken up her offense and her cause and made it a public issue on the Ehell Facebook wall and hijacking forum threads reporting on malware issues. That is trouble by anyone's definition.

Or are you are saying that the people who have taken up her cause are doing so against her wishes to harm her? In which case I suggest she contact me immediately to identify those people so they can be publicly outed on the forum and then banned from this site as being malicious, hateful people. I'll be happy to welcome her back as the victim of nasty people who used her for their own petty agendas against Ehell.

As for hot-shaker, I have unbanned her. I readily admit that I misconstrued several of her comments about not wanting to go to Ehell, etc. However, I most certainly did not misconstrue her comments below:

"Quite frankly, I trust the reports from my fellow posters more than I trust the the EHell administration."

"Yes, I will freely admit that I have recently expressed disdain for the actions of the EHell admins."

She has not been happy on this forum and if she cannot trust me or others in the forum administration, I doubt she will ever be happy here and probably needs to find someplace where she is.

Her ban was lifted weeks ago, at least early November, by me, and she was notified of this. She may not have received that email because I kept getting repeatedly contact from her asking to be unbanned well after she was. However, I sometimes have bigger administrative fish to fry and do not have time to have repeated private communications over the same issues. There are very patient, long suffering members who are due a response from their messages to me and I still haven't had the time for any replies other than a quick, "I haven't forgotten you," or a quick "I'll get back to you".

One of the things that gets discussed a lot on ehell is "training" people to behave in certain ways. What is clear from this quote is that you respond rapidly when addressed in public, and take a while to respond when sent a PM. We're all getting trained that public posts "work" in getting issues addressed and PMs don't. You say you want PMs but your actions--probably inadvertently--say the opposite.

In addition, I think people have a right to defend themselves publicly if they are criticized publicly.

Her ban was lifted weeks ago, at least early November, by me, and she was notified of this. She may not have received that email because I kept getting repeatedly contact from her asking to be unbanned well after she was. However, I sometimes have bigger administrative fish to fry and do not have time to have repeated private communications over the same issues. There are very patient, long suffering members who are due a response from their messages to me and I still haven't had the time for any replies other than a quick, "I haven't forgotten you," or a quick "I'll get back to you".

One of the things that gets discussed a lot on ehell is "training" people to behave in certain ways. What is clear from this quote is that you respond rapidly when addressed in public, and take a while to respond when sent a PM. We're all getting trained that public posts "work" in getting issues addressed and PMs don't. You say you want PMs but your actions--probably inadvertently--say the opposite.

In addition, I think people have a right to defend themselves publicly if they are criticized publicly.

POD.

Also, it seems to me that the word "troll" is getting thrown around more and more loosely of late. Rather than refer to somebody who makes up false stories to garner attention, or who is deliberately rude and inflammatory in every post just to stir up drama, the term now seems to be being used to describe any poster who expresses any kind of disagreement about the forum at all, no matter how politely they do so. That worries me. I don't think that simple disagreement should be enough to have someone labeled a troll.

In addition, disagreeing with an action taken by a forum administrator or having concerns about the way the forum is run does not translate to not liking EHell, wanting to bring trouble here, or wanting to destroy the forum. Very often, people have these concerns in the first place because they care about and enjoy EHell and they are afraid of seeing it spiral downhill. I know that, overall, I really enjoy these forums. I enjoy the posters and the threads, and even when I don't post much myself, I always enjoy reading. But that doesn't mean that I agree with every action the admins take, or that I don't occasionally have concerns about the way things are done.* In the same way that one does not have to agree with every action the president takes to be a loyal American, I don't think one should have to agree with everything the administration here does and never ever express disagreement in order to be considered a loyal EHellion.

*I don't usually express my concerns for two reasons: 1) in general they are very mild and 2) sadly, I am more and more afraid to express any disagreement, even privately, for fear of being labeled a troll and banned. I don't want that. As I said above, I do like it here, and I would like to remain.

Logged

"Follies and nonsense, whims and inconsistencies DO divert me, I own- and I laugh at them whenever I can." -Jane Austen

In the same way that one does not have to agree with every action the president takes to be a loyal American, I don't think one should have to agree with everything the administration here does and never ever express disagreement in order to be considered a loyal EHellion.

Her ban was lifted weeks ago, at least early November, by me, and she was notified of this. She may not have received that email because I kept getting repeatedly contact from her asking to be unbanned well after she was. However, I sometimes have bigger administrative fish to fry and do not have time to have repeated private communications over the same issues. There are very patient, long suffering members who are due a response from their messages to me and I still haven't had the time for any replies other than a quick, "I haven't forgotten you," or a quick "I'll get back to you".

One of the things that gets discussed a lot on ehell is "training" people to behave in certain ways. What is clear from this quote is that you respond rapidly when addressed in public, and take a while to respond when sent a PM. We're all getting trained that public posts "work" in getting issues addressed and PMs don't. You say you want PMs but your actions--probably inadvertently--say the opposite.

In addition, I think people have a right to defend themselves publicly if they are criticized publicly.

You, of all people, know the power of private communication. When a moderator added a group of IP addresses to the ban triggers in October, you unintentionally got caught up in that ban. It happens sometimes. You privately contacted me and the matter was resolved with no forum drama. You cannot, from personal experience, make any claim that your PMs have been brushed off or not acted upon in a timely manner. People who have legitimate forum issues such as glitches, errors, log in problems, etc. are given first priority. Every person who PMed me with an antivirus data received prompt attention.

Her ban was lifted weeks ago, at least early November, by me, and she was notified of this. She may not have received that email because I kept getting repeatedly contact from her asking to be unbanned well after she was. However, I sometimes have bigger administrative fish to fry and do not have time to have repeated private communications over the same issues. There are very patient, long suffering members who are due a response from their messages to me and I still haven't had the time for any replies other than a quick, "I haven't forgotten you," or a quick "I'll get back to you".

One of the things that gets discussed a lot on ehell is "training" people to behave in certain ways. What is clear from this quote is that you respond rapidly when addressed in public, and take a while to respond when sent a PM. We're all getting trained that public posts "work" in getting issues addressed and PMs don't. You say you want PMs but your actions--probably inadvertently--say the opposite.

In addition, I think people have a right to defend themselves publicly if they are criticized publicly.

You, of all people, know the power of private communication. When a moderator added a group of IP addresses to the ban triggers in October, you unintentionally got caught up in that ban. It happens sometimes. You privately contacted me and the matter was resolved with no forum drama. You cannot, from personal experience, make any claim that your PMs have been brushed off or not acted upon in a timely manner. People who have legitimate forum issues such as glitches, errors, log in problems, etc. are given first priority. Every person who PMed me with an antivirus data received prompt attention.

No, I think you have me confused with someone else. That story did not happen to me.

In the same way that one does not have to agree with every action the president takes to be a loyal American, I don't think one should have to agree with everything the administration here does and never ever express disagreement in order to be considered a loyal EHellion.

Big pod. This is the perfect analogy.

Excellent analogy. I've gotten a "Love it or leave it" vibe in recent months. "Strive to make it better" is a middle ground.

I would encourage anyone who's curious about all this to join the unofficial FB group, which is open to anyone and does not require you to disclose your ehell handle, and see what it's really about.

No, Ma'am, it is not an open group. It is listed as "closed". There is nothing public about it. And I know I was on the group at one time and am no longer, not by my choice. Also, I believe at least one other moderator, possibly two, were removed from the member lists as well. In contrast, there are no secret groups on Ehell except the Staff folder.

And we do know from people inside that closed group that when someone "shows Ehelldame up" on the forum (Spoder, for example), it gets discussed and there are high fives. We know there was a screen shot posted a few days ago showing an Ehell Facebook wall post of a person "calling" me out on on my inability to kill said virus and how I don't care about the site or the people that visit. The fact that these discussions exist and have the effect of encouraging those members of the closed group to troll or make trouble on Ehell so they return to congratulatory kudos means this is not a benign group of fellow knitters discussing their latest child rearing follies. For anyone to claim this group does not promote and encourage troublemaking on the Ehell Facebook page or the forum is either wildly ignorant or barely visits or is disingenuous about the content and actions of some people on that group that are allowed to promote trouble on Ehell.

I would encourage anyone who's curious about all this to join the unofficial FB group, which is open to anyone and does not require you to disclose your ehell handle, and see what it's really about.

No, Ma'am, it is not an open group. It is listed as "closed". There is nothing public about it. And I know I was on the group at one time and am no longer, not by my choice. Also, I believe at least one other moderator, possibly two, were removed from the member lists as well. In contrast, there are no secret groups on Ehell except the Staff folder.

It is true that the group is closed so that only members can see posts. However, it is "open to everyone" in that anyone may request to join, and the admin of the group has stated several times that no membership requests are denied.

Logged

"Follies and nonsense, whims and inconsistencies DO divert me, I own- and I laugh at them whenever I can." -Jane Austen

Her ban was lifted weeks ago, at least early November, by me, and she was notified of this. She may not have received that email because I kept getting repeatedly contact from her asking to be unbanned well after she was. However, I sometimes have bigger administrative fish to fry and do not have time to have repeated private communications over the same issues. There are very patient, long suffering members who are due a response from their messages to me and I still haven't had the time for any replies other than a quick, "I haven't forgotten you," or a quick "I'll get back to you".

One of the things that gets discussed a lot on ehell is "training" people to behave in certain ways. What is clear from this quote is that you respond rapidly when addressed in public, and take a while to respond when sent a PM. We're all getting trained that public posts "work" in getting issues addressed and PMs don't. You say you want PMs but your actions--probably inadvertently--say the opposite.

In addition, I think people have a right to defend themselves publicly if they are criticized publicly.

You, of all people, know the power of private communication. When a moderator added a group of IP addresses to the ban triggers in October, you unintentionally got caught up in that ban. It happens sometimes. You privately contacted me and the matter was resolved with no forum drama. You cannot, from personal experience, make any claim that your PMs have been brushed off or not acted upon in a timely manner. People who have legitimate forum issues such as glitches, errors, log in problems, etc. are given first priority. Every person who PMed me with an antivirus data received prompt attention.

No, I think you have me confused with someone else. That story did not happen to me.

You are correct. I apologize. Your name is very similar to another's. However, you do not have firsthand knowledge of contacting me personally and being rebuffed so your assertions are based on secondhand reports at best.

Thread closed as this has once again derailed from the intended topic of the thread.

Of the few screen shots I have received of AV alerting to an attack, the information they reveal is leading me to think there is a misunderstanding as to how browsers work.

If you are viewing Ehell on one tab but have other tabs to other sites open as well, God only knows which site actually alerted to the attack. I am viewing Ehell right at this moment on a tab in the Fire Fox browser but I love hopping from site to site so I have about a dozen other tabs open as well. *All* of the tabs are active and talking with my browser even though I may not be looking at any particular site at the moment. A few of the screenshots show people viewing Ehell when their Av alerted that it blocked an intrusion but it also shows other tabs to Twitter, Facebook, Yahoo, and other sites as being open as well.

We need a screenshots where the only tab open and active is Ehell for there to be hope in identifying which Google Ad, assuming it is a Google Ad, that is trying to give malware.

This particular malware has been given different names by the various AV companies but it is the same. And it is epidemic across the Internet on even sites you would assume are safe. Your best defense is to upgrade to a very good AV software, keep your definitions updated and scan weekly.