(13-04-2015 05:53 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote: The stats I've quoted are gun ownership, not numbers of guns en masse but number of people with guns.

I think it is hard to get reasonable stats. Both sides play a propoganda game.
I would like to know how many homes have hand guns, because crimes are generally carried out with hand guns due to their concealable nature.
I'd like to know how many homes have semi-auto rifles such as AR-15, Bushmaster. I consider an owner of 0.22 and 0.308 and shotgun to be more interested in hunting vermin or game animals but an owner of AR-15, Bushmaster to be more likely to have more interested in war and heroics when compared to the other rifle owners.
Also it would be interesting to know how many homes have more handguns than adult occupants.
I would also be interested to know how easy it is for a criminal to get their hands on a handgun, and if general citizen ownership makes this easier for them.
And how many murders are performed by people without prior criminal records.

We had an anniversary day in NZ not long ago and I had a discussion with an Armed Offender Police officer. I was asking him if he came across pistols much and he said no. Most raids they do, the people don't have guns, occasionally they might have a rifle or a sawn off shotgun, but pistols were rare to encounter.

Actually - the reason the Bushmaster .223 is so popular is it's an incredibly accurate, reliable gun that's easy for even a beginner to shoot due to it's low recoil, light weight and good ergonomics....

They're capable of sub-MOA shooting right out of the box. Very few other guns can live up to that standard.

The fact that it's a scary black rifle, is pretty much a minor consideration....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.

(13-04-2015 05:53 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote: The stats I've quoted are gun ownership, not numbers of guns en masse but number of people with guns.

I think it is hard to get reasonable stats. Both sides play a propoganda game.
I would like to know how many homes have hand guns, because crimes are generally carried out with hand guns due to their concealable nature.
I'd like to know how many homes have semi-auto rifles such as AR-15, Bushmaster. I consider an owner of 0.22 and 0.308 and shotgun to be more interested in hunting vermin or game animals but an owner of AR-15, Bushmaster to be more likely to have more interested in war and heroics when compared to the other rifle owners.
Also it would be interesting to know how many homes have more handguns than adult occupants.
I would also be interested to know how easy it is for a criminal to get their hands on a handgun, and if general citizen ownership makes this easier for them.
And how many murders are performed by people without prior criminal records.

We had an anniversary day in NZ not long ago and I had a discussion with an Armed Offender Police officer. I was asking him if he came across pistols much and he said no. Most raids they do, the people don't have guns, occasionally they might have a rifle or a sawn off shotgun, but pistols were rare to encounter.

The stats are very straightforward as numbers tend to be. The stats I've cited are very simple and straightforward for instance. As is the point I tried to distill down to address with some simple stats.

(13-04-2015 05:52 PM)Stevil Wrote: Another factor bluring the gun ownership rates is that there are many USA citizens who own many guns. If a person already owns 12 hand guns and buys 5 more, the 5 extra aren't going to make that individual any more dangerous than they already are with their first 12 guns.
If you are arming yourself in order to combat your own police force and your own army and you live in a first world democratic country, then really, I think you are either overly paranoid, have a huge chip on your shoulder, are into illegal activities, are aggressive or are brainwashed by those who want to make a profit by selling guns.

We don't arm ourselves to combat our own citizens - including the police - who are also our citizens.

We keep guns legal - because we trust ourselves.

Those who don't trust themselves and others, want to restrict gun ownership.

Gun ownership is exactly the opposite of paranoia.

Are you scared of your neighbor owning guns???

Doesn't that make YOU paranoid???

You don't make a reasonable case that you aren't paranoid when you start jumping right to nazi Germany and imply that something I've said implies that all guns should be removed.

(13-04-2015 06:11 PM)onlinebiker Wrote: We don't arm ourselves to combat our own citizens - including the police - who are also our citizens.

We keep guns legal - because we trust ourselves.

Those who don't trust themselves and others, want to restrict gun ownership.

Gun ownership is exactly the opposite of paranoia.

Are you scared of your neighbor owning guns???

Doesn't that make YOU paranoid???

...but, you said guns are primarily to stop oppressive government? I'm confussed about your position now.

How many gun murders occur in USA per year?

How many crimes are carried out at gun point in USA?

I do trust my police and my country's army with guns, although given some videos coming out of USA with police shooting blacks it seems to be beneficial to have police without guns.
There are many youths and poor whom think guns and crime is an outlet or opportunity for them, there are many people with anger issues.
I don't want them having guns, and I have no interest in carrying a gun myself.

(13-04-2015 06:11 PM)onlinebiker Wrote: We don't arm ourselves to combat our own citizens - including the police - who are also our citizens.

We keep guns legal - because we trust ourselves.

Those who don't trust themselves and others, want to restrict gun ownership.

Gun ownership is exactly the opposite of paranoia.

Are you scared of your neighbor owning guns???

Doesn't that make YOU paranoid???

...but, you said guns are primarily to stop oppressive government? I'm confussed about your position now.

How many gun murders occur in USA per year?

How many crimes are carried out at gun point in USA?

I do trust my police and my country's army with guns, although given some videos coming out of USA with police shooting blacks it seems to be beneficial to have police without guns.
There are many youths and poor whom think guns and crime is an outlet or opportunity for them, there are many people with anger issues.
I don't want them having guns, and I have no interest in carrying a gun myself.

His points are impossible to follow because they've no rationality behind them.

(13-04-2015 06:11 PM)onlinebiker Wrote: We don't arm ourselves to combat our own citizens - including the police - who are also our citizens.

We keep guns legal - because we trust ourselves.

Those who don't trust themselves and others, want to restrict gun ownership.

Gun ownership is exactly the opposite of paranoia.

Are you scared of your neighbor owning guns???

Doesn't that make YOU paranoid???

...but, you said guns are primarily to stop oppressive government? I'm confussed about your position now.

How many gun murders occur in USA per year?

How many crimes are carried out at gun point in USA?

I do trust my police and my country's army with guns, although given some videos coming out of USA with police shooting blacks it seems to be beneficial to have police without guns.
There are many youths and poor whom think guns and crime is an outlet or opportunity for them, there are many people with anger issues.
I don't want them having guns, and I have no interest in carrying a gun myself.

We fear, what we do not know...

It explains a lot, when dealing with religion and death....

The same applies to firearms.

Yes - there's lots of crime and gun violence in the US. If by some feat of magic we were able to get rid of all the guns - the US would probably be the world's leader in knife, sword and vehicular death.. Why??

Frankly - there's a whole bunch of people with some seriously damaged DNA here.........

If you trust your police and military with guns -- how is that different from trusting anyone else?????

The police and military are all simply people - just like everyone else -- they don't make them special in a factory somewhere. Many military and police have less training and experience than civilians with weaponry. It's a fact of life.

The whole point of weapon ownership isn't the ownership.

It's the absence of prohibition of ownership.

>>>> read that again, if you didn't get it the first time<<<<<<<<<

If nobody owned guns - we'd be fine.

If nobody was ALLOWED to own guns, we'd be seriously fucked.

To deny the power of gun ownership is the same as denying any other basic right. Like free speech, or free association........

You don't need to own guns. You just really should be glad you CAN.....

It means your government trusts you.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.

(13-04-2015 06:22 PM)Stevil Wrote: ...but, you said guns are primarily to stop oppressive government? I'm confussed about your position now.

How many gun murders occur in USA per year?

How many crimes are carried out at gun point in USA?

I do trust my police and my country's army with guns, although given some videos coming out of USA with police shooting blacks it seems to be beneficial to have police without guns.
There are many youths and poor whom think guns and crime is an outlet or opportunity for them, there are many people with anger issues.
I don't want them having guns, and I have no interest in carrying a gun myself.

We fear, what we do not know...

It explains a lot, when dealing with religion and death....

The same applies to firearms.

Yes - there's lots of crime and gun violence in the US. If by some feat of magic we were able to get rid of all the guns - the US would probably be the world's leader in knife, sword and vehicular death.. Why??

Frankly - there's a whole bunch of people with some seriously damaged DNA here.........

If you trust your police and military with guns -- how is that different from trusting anyone else?????

The police and military are all simply people - just like everyone else -- they don't make them special in a factory somewhere. Many military and police have less training and experience that civilians with weaponry. It's a fact of life.

The whole point of weapon ownership isn't the ownership.

It's the absence of prohibition of ownership.

>>>> read that again, if you didn't get it the first time<<<<<<<<<

If nobody owned guns - we'd be fine.

If nobody was ALLOWED to own guns, we'd be seriously fucked.

To deny the power of gun ownership is the same as denying any other basic right. Like free speech, or free association........

You don't need to own guns. You just really should be glad you CAN.....

It means your government trusts you.

Notice that he completely side-stepped the question and started ranting about other strawmen and red herrings.