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Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

Having two guys that need post touches in Roy and West may also not be the best strategy. A more athletic player who can run with Lance and Paul might be a better option going forward. It will be interesting to see.

It's a strategy that got them to game 7 of the ECF. Why would anyone want to turn away from that type of offense, and dive head first into an offense that has looked like utter crap for the past month and a half?

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

Who does this franchise need to show loyalty to? The Roy Hibbert who was ready to bolt for Portland until we bent over to pay him an obscene amount? Yeah, he has a lot of clout when it comes to "loyalty". The PG who we're paying to be our Kevin Durant? The George Hill who we are overpaying? The David West who will be making 12.6 million as a 35 year old? The Lance Stephenson who likely will be paid handsomely by the Pacers this summer?

These guys have ZERO room to question this organization's loyalty. Their pal got traded this year, a season that was going to be his last here no matter what. I get that they miss his presence, but we did go to Game 7 of the ECF's without him last year. Sure he was still on the bench and in the locker room, but the fact remains that we figured out how to thrive without him on the court. I get that the guys miss their friend, but the problems with this team are waaaaay beyond that. PG's "I'm the new LBJ" ego was starting to get out of control long before DG was traded. It's just unfortunately reached a boiling point right now.

Danny Granger gave up his prime years on a crap team (with Jim O'brien..I mean seriously..) because of the promise Larry Bird made to him. That they were going to build a great team around him.

When the time came, we traded him because it benefited the organization.

You can play the "it's business" card. And as a Pacer's fan, not a players fan, it's completely understandable. And the decision was a logical one on Larry's part. Doesn't make it right.

But that's not how the guys are going to see it. What was Roy's comment "I don't want to talk about it.."

Our young guys are going to play inconsistently, no matter how good they are. The vets are going to get annoyed with them, because vets get annoyed at young guys making mistakes. I think that's a normal part of the growth of the team. And I'm not even saying trading Danny is the issue. I'm just saying, that if there is a larger issue that isn't simply a valley in a long season..it's not PG or Lance having a big head. It's not Vogel suddenly being unable to coach. It's what happened to Danny. Do not mess with the chemistry on a championship level team. Period.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

It's a strategy that got them to game 7 of the ECF. Why would anyone want to turn away from that type of offense, and dive head first into an offense that has looked like utter crap for the past month and a half?

I'm not saying it's what we should do at all. Just saying that I think that is the real decision here is the core identity of the team offensively has changed pretty dramatically and Roy and West do not fit into it.

Like I said I really think this team needs a good fight. I think they are scared to ruin the perception of their chemistry, but sometimes a fight is good. I think back on when Wade and Spo got into it in the second round against us on the bench. Everyone reacted to it like Miami was melting down, but then Wade came alive in a big way and murdered us the rest of the series. Sometimes you have to fight a little, right now we are holding in our frustrations.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

I'm not saying it's what we should do at all. Just saying that I think that is the real decision here is the core identity of the team offensively has changed pretty dramatically and Roy and West do not fit into it.

It's really not all that hard of a decision.

Go with the offense identity that put your team on the NBA map, or continue down the path that has taken them off of it? The choice seems pretty clear cut, to me.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

Danny Granger gave up his prime years on a crap team (with Jim O'brien..I mean seriously..) because of the promise Larry Bird made to him. That they were going to build a great team around him.

When the time came, we traded him because it benefited the organization.

You can play the "it's business" card. And as a Pacer's fan, not a players fan, it's completely understandable. And the decision was a logical one on Larry's part. Doesn't make it right.

But that's not how the guys are going to see it. What was Roy's comment "I don't want to talk about it.."

Our young guys are going to play inconsistently, no matter how good they are. The vets are going to get annoyed with them, because vets get annoyed at young guys making mistakes. I think that's a normal part of the growth of the team. And I'm not even saying trading Danny is the issue. I'm just saying, that if there is a larger issue that isn't simply a valley in a long season..it's not PG or Lance having a big head. It's not Vogel suddenly being unable to coach. It's what happened to Danny. Do not mess with the chemistry on a championship level team. Period.

I just have next to no sympathy for a guy like Hibbert pouting about losing Granger. Funny how Hibbert didn't seem too big on nostalgia, loyalty, and friendship when he was ready to board a plane to Portland so he could make all of that jack. Hey, I don't begrudge him for wanting to take the money and I would have done the exact same thing, but I'm not going to have any sympathy for him when he acts all mopey about losing Granger. Playing with Granger wasn't very high on his priority list when he was about to be a highly paid Trail Blazer. Guys like Hibbert, PG, West, and Hill need to understand that their obscenely high salaries are why the Pacers got into a position where they had to make some difficult choices.

As to messing with the chemistry on a championship level team, there is a big difference between being a championship level team and a team that actually wins the championship. There are quite a few "championship level teams" every season, but there is only one champion at the end of the day. Bird felt that to beat the Heat, he needed to swing for the fences. And when it comes to messing with chemistry, we traded a guy who wasn't even on the playoff roster last year and missed the first two months of the season when we started out on a complete tear. It's not like we traded David West. There's no law that says championship level teams shouldn't look to tinker with their bench.

I just don't think Danny has much to do with PG turning into a selfish ball hog who feels that he has to play like Kevin Durant every single night, or the fact that Hibbert way too often looks like a wuss. Hibbert showed these fragile characteristics loooooong before DG was shipped out. It's just who he is.

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Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

I too am starting to see some division in the team. If I had to point fingers , I would say it starts with PG. I have never seen a player ***** and wine about every call he doesn't get like PG. I would rather have the PG that played ferocious defense (like the sequence last night when he was guarding the point,taped the ball out of his hands , boozer picked it up and PG stole it again and raced down and dunked) and averaged like 15 a game, than the PG who wants to average 25 and defense has slipped. I think PG has bought into his own hype too much and is having a negative effect on Lance . I also feel Roy/West/Hill are one group that's not too happy with the play of PG/Lance. In Lance's defense at least he gets some enjoyment out of getting other players involved (sometimes the passes are too fancy). I would seriously pull PG/Roy out for a few games, matter fact of PG does have all this "off the court stuff," (where are you Clark Kellog) then give him sometime off for personal reasons. start Mahimi and Butler for a few games , then gradually work the two of them back in. Maybe a team outing of fun might bring some life back into them.

I don't know what to make of our team lately, although I wouldn't be surprised either way, meaning they could implode and lose in the first round, or they could all of a sudden come together in the playoffs and reach the finals

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Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

If you ask me the biggest problems are Roy and Paul. GHill, Lance, and David aren't perfect, but their games haven't changed much since we were playing well. Lance pounded the ball too much, Hill wasn't all that aggressive, and West complained to the refs even when we were 16-1. The losing has just made us pay attention to it. Roy and Paul need to pick it up.

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Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

I'm just saying if I went into a multi month funk every time one of my friends moved away I would barely be a functioning human being. I understand these guys are people but at some point you do have to say, get over it.

Your friend had to move away because of work or life changes? Welcome to an issue that literally every human in America will likely have to deal with at some point in their lives. Danny Granger isn't dead. Paul has the money to hang with him whenever he wants in the offseason.

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Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

Even though he's struggled, I don't think it's Paul George that's throwing things out of whack and drawing the ire of teammates. Look at what Roy said

"We've fallen in love with the jump shot for a while," Hibbert said. "People feel like they have it going and they want to do it themselves sometimes. That's just how it works. I feel like two guys that I have 100 percent trust in doing that is Paul and David. I feel like they should have carte blanche on whatever they want to do in terms of attacking the paint and (put) the ball's in their hands because they've earned my respect."

I think it's Lance. This was a team that had two inside players in Hibbert and West, then a dynamic outside presence in George that was the heart of our offensive attack. Lance had a stretch where he absolutely dazzled right before the all-star break, and since then, it's been more of a perimeter focus. Problem is, I don't know if this lineup can handle another perimeter guy jacking up shots and dominating the ball....it's fazed out Hibbert, who's one of our biggest advantages on teams. We've lost our identity a bit.

While he's outgrown a lot of his old habits and made great strides as a player and teammate, this is still the same guy at Cincy, who consistently rubbed coaches and teammates the wrong way. Maybe he's falling back into old habits? This isn't playground basketball, you have to share the ball.

Problem is, if you move Lance...then I think you have to move Hill too because Hill doesn't give you enough creativity and passing as a point guard. Lance has helped compensate for that, when he has things going well.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

Maybe a team outing of fun might bring some life back into them.I don't know what to make of our team lately, although I wouldn't be surprised either way, meaning they could implode and lose in the first round, or they could all of a sudden come together in the playoffs and reach the finals

Neither would shock me

Please Dear Lord, not Club Rio. Although, I suspect PG could get them a good table.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

I too am starting to see some division in the team. If I had to point fingers , I would say it starts with PG. I have never seen a player ***** and wine about every call he doesn't get like PG. I would rather have the PG that played ferocious defense (like the sequence last night when he was guarding the point,taped the ball out of his hands , boozer picked it up and PG stole it again and raced down and dunked) and averaged like 15 a game, than the PG who wants to average 25 and defense has slipped. I think PG has bought into his own hype too much and is having a negative effect on Lance . I also feel Roy/West/Hill are one group that's not too happy with the play of PG/Lance. In Lance's defense at least he gets some enjoyment out of getting other players involved (sometimes the passes are too fancy). I would seriously pull PG/Roy out for a few games, matter fact of PG does have all this "off the court stuff," (where are you Clark Kellog) then give him sometime off for personal reasons. start Mahimi and Butler for a few games , then gradually work the two of them back in. Maybe a team outing of fun might bring some life back into them.

I don't know what to make of our team lately, although I wouldn't be surprised either way, meaning they could implode and lose in the first round, or they could all of a sudden come together in the playoffs and reach the finals

Neither would shock me

I don't think you can bench PG. I do think you can reign him in with stuff like the don't split doubles anymore, or things like that.

Regarding Lance, there is no doubt IMO that he has stopped passing as much as he once did and he is definitely throwing more home run passes than he was earlier. He isn't balancing as well with the easy passes (this is an issue he had as a younger guy).

Regarding *****ing to the refs, it's definitely one of those "But I saw Dad do it!" things with Paul and Lance. And the guy who started it was David And 1 West.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

So what, were we supposed to just keep paying Danny Granger for the rest of Roy and Paul's careers? When is it ok for them to finally be able to cut the cord?

No, but we should have at least let him make a championship run with the team.

That's not the bigger point anyway. This team was a championship level team with great chemistry. Teams aren't like typical jobs, they depend on the chemistry...and if it's going well, you don't change it.

I strongly believe that this team will get itself together, and that this is just a valley in a long season. Every team I've ever watched does this. (Even the Uconn women go through a valley period where they only beat teams by 20 instead of 40.) My point is, if it doesn't..I'm pointing my finger at Bird. He's the one that messed with the team in the first place. We don't know the inner dynamics of the team..maybe Granger was the guy keeping Lance in check. Maybe he's the guy PG turned to when he had off the court growing pains. Maybe he's the guy that West turned to when he needed to ***** about the young guys. We don't know. But what I do know..is that you don't change things on a team when they are going good.

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Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

The wheels were already coming off with Granger here, you'd had to have been under a rock to not see that. Bird made a move to attempt to jumpstart the team again. It hasn't worked out, but it was one of the few moves at his disposal.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

No, but we should have at least let him make a championship run with the team.

That's not the bigger point anyway. This team was a championship level team with great chemistry. Teams aren't like typical jobs, they depend on the chemistry...and if it's going well, you don't change it.

I strongly believe that this team will get itself together, and that this is just a valley in a long season. Every team I've ever watched does this. (Even the Uconn women go through a valley period where they only beat teams by 20 instead of 40.) My point is, if it doesn't..I'm pointing my finger at Bird. He's the one that messed with the team in the first place. We don't know the inner dynamics of the team..maybe Granger was the guy keeping Lance in check. Maybe he's the guy PG turned to when he had off the court growing pains. Maybe he's the guy that West turned to when he needed to ***** about the young guys. We don't know. But what I do know..is that you don't change things on a team when they are going good.

Our main problem right now is that the starters aren't playing very well together, but Granger obviously wasn't a part of that group this season. The Granger trade had nothing to do with how the starters play with each other. It just seems like a pretty big leap to think that things are off between the starters because they are moping around about a traded bench player. It's clear that the starters aren't enjoying each others presence right now. I don't think Granger has anything to do with PG's new selfish out of this world ego on the basketball court.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

Our main problem right now is that the starters aren't playing very well together, but Granger obviously wasn't a part of that group this season. The Granger trade had nothing to do with how the starters play with each other. It just seems like a pretty big leap to think that things are off between the starters because they are moping around about a traded bench player. It's clear that the starters aren't enjoying each others presence right now. I don't think Granger has anything to do with PG's new selfish out of this world ego on the basketball court.

Our chemistry is off, and you don't think there's any possibility of it being because the team lost an integral part of their personality?

It's much more likely to be because of PG's huge ego that he's never before had? I don't buy it.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

Our chemistry is off, and you don't think there's any possibility of it being because the team lost an integral part of their personality?

It's much more likely to be because of PG's huge ego that he's never before had? I don't buy it.

I just don't think that he was a huge integral part of our personality anymore. I like the guy and I'm glad that he's doing well in LA, but the Pacers went to the ECF's without him last year and also had their red hot start to this season while he recovering from injury. I get that guys were still able to talk to him on the bench and in the locker room, but the point remains that the team figured out how to thrive without him on the basketball court. Thus, it's just hard for me to buy that their recent poor play is because of his absence. If he had been a key contributor on last year's ECF's team as well as the first two months of the season, then I'd be much more willing to buy into the theory. But IMHO, it just seems like a fallacy of believing that correlation implies causation. It's way too easy of an excuse to cover up for some serious basketball flaws in the current group.

Yes, I do think that the biggest problem on the team right now is PG's out of control ego on the basketball court. It's happened very very very fast, but it's a major issue. Last year he had a breakout season, a phenomenal playoff run, and traded barbs with Lebron James in the ECF's. All off-season he heard that he was the next big up and coming thing in the NBA. Then he signs a massive contract and starts the first two months of this season on an absolute tear, and you could without question say with a straight face that he was the MVP of the league through the new year. Everyone was starting to say that he was joining the ranks of Durant and Lebron. It clearly got to his ego. For the last three months, he has consistently played as if he has to take over games like Durant for the Pacers to win. His selfish decisions on the court imply that he feels he has to constantly live up to that new top 5 player status. The problem is that when he fails, he tries to "make up" for it next time down with an even worse shot. The end result is three straight months of hideous shooting percentages. It's created a snowball effect that has just killed our offense. Look at what happens every time we have the last shot of the quarter. The other four Pacers just stand still while PG bricks some garbage ISO. I'm sick of watching that, and it's time for the coach to show some guts and step in.

I miss the PG who played within the confines of team basketball and let the game come to him after we worked through our bigs. I don't like this entitled PG who has taken a selfish command of the offense and constantly whines to officials. And by PG having an "ego", I don't mean that he's acting like a prick or anything like that. I'm just saying that his play on the basketball court is that of a player who values himself way too highly. Guy plays as if he's Kobe Bryant, but he just doesn't have the game to back it up right now. If fans are sick of it, then I can only imagine what his teammates must feel.

I think that is the main tangible issue affecting our team right now. I don't think they are stinking up the joint because they are upset about their pal being traded. I don't doubt that it depressed them for a little bit, but I think our current problems are because our starters don't have chemistry right now. You could have five Grangers sitting on the bench and it still wouldn't change that.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

I was listening to Kravitz on the ride in this morning talking to Cowturd. While he admits that the "off the court activities" have been a major distraction, he also brought up how PG has to guard the other team's best player every night. Hell, we have had PG on other other team's point late in games to ensure wins.

So he expends energy on both ends and is beat. But what can you do? I just can't imagine a steady diet of Lance on Bron (short stretches sure) because he just doesn't bring that kind of intensisty (ok, he gets lazy). And we really don't have anyone on the bench who is a "defensive" specialist to give our leading scorer a blow on the other end.

So, given that, he has to give it up on the offensive end. Let other people do things.

Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

I don't think you can bench PG. I do think you can reign him in with stuff like the don't split doubles anymore, or things like that.

Regarding Lance, there is no doubt IMO that he has stopped passing as much as he once did and he is definitely throwing more home run passes than he was earlier. He isn't balancing as well with the easy passes (this is an issue he had as a younger guy).

Regarding *****ing to the refs, it's definitely one of those "But I saw Dad do it!" things with Paul and Lance. And the guy who started it was David And 1 West.

Not so much a "benching" a a demotion for PG, but just a few days of rest and some time to possibly attend to some of his off court affairs, that's why I suggested Butler start in his place and not Turner. Just some time to take a few days away and regroup