THE CONSENSUS IS IN GIVE UP ON GETTING AN IT JOB

prem saggar

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Posts: 66

posted 13 years ago

Dear ranchers, first of let me thank all of you for the priceless knowledge you have given to me over the years. I have been trying to get a Computer Science/IT job now for the last 2 years in the United States. I'm a citizen. I'm 25. I'm a SCJP 1.4. I have a BS in Computer Science from NJIT. I graduated in December 2002. I have reached a conclusion that I did not want to. IT and Computer Science are finished. You may not think so, but unless you have 10-75 years experience you will not have a chance of getting an entry-level job. I have done my homework, read the papers, gone to the job fairs, and begged my contacts. IT'S OVER. While I may get flamed for my pessimism, I believe I am right on with my statement. There are thousands of us who are unemployed, underpaid, or just very unhappy. Think about it. IT changes the fastest. You work the hardest. You constantly learn new things. You struggle with low salaries. You deal with incredible dead lines. You have no job security. You lose sleep. Your family life suffers. You are constantly under stress. And you are the first to get fired. NO MORE. NEVER AGAIN. I WILL NOT BE A SLAVE TO AN INDUSTRY THAT ABUSES ME. I don't mean to be discouraging. I'm just saying how I feel and hoping to help others. Ladies and gentlemen, don't get discouraged if you can't find work. It's not you. It's the industry. I suggest you leave it as it left you. Move on, and realize that this is just not the right path anymore. Thank you fellow Java ranchers for all the help over the years, Prem

Mark Fletcher

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Posts: 897

posted 13 years ago

You graduated in 2002 and already youre giving up? Cmon thats only been about a month that youve been job hunting, and Christmas/Early January is traditionally a quiet period in recruitment. Stick at it and persevere. You'll get that IT job. Mark

It's hard to know whether IT will be back once the economy rebounds, or if too many IT jobs have moved overseas. It may be that IT will never flourish in the country again. What do you plan to "move on" to? I understand your frustration, but I haven't been able to come up with a decent alternative career.

IBM 286, SCJP, SCWCD, EIEIO

Rufus BugleWeed

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Posts: 1551

posted 13 years ago

I believe a person who can pick stocks that outperform the market will always be employable. But after awhile, may not need a job. Instead of reading minds as a software professional, why not predict the future where they can't change the results based on your prediction?

Amitabh Sharma

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Posts: 126

posted 13 years ago

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed: I believe a person who can pick stocks that outperform the market will always be employable. But after awhile, may not need a job. Instead of reading minds as a software professional, why not predict the future where they can't change the results based on your prediction?

Rugus thanks for sharing your thoughts. Can you please elaborate on these. I read on MSN web site that according to a survey most people in IT DO NOT see it as a career. It is over. Even in India there are reports that lot of software professionals are switching career tracks such as going for MBAs and such. Being self employed would be definately the way to go if possible. What I lack is the confidence and the resources.

Lalooprasad Yadav

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Posts: 92

posted 13 years ago

Do it now before you are too old to make the switch. The current difficulty in getting a job is due to the saturated market. New industry trends will also have a role in shrinking the IT job market further. One of the trends that may play a major role in the coming years is the growing number of self sufficient end users. I can cite my customers as an example. Most of them are industrial engineers, MBA types , marketing analysts and various other kinds of fauna called "industry experts". They are capable of setting up a data source (Oracle or SQL server) and dishing out data (to those who consume the data they produce) through ASP or JSP (That's how I get so much spare time on my hands ) . Dozens of them can code decent C++ and Java. When you allow these kind of life forms to multiply it makes the corporate developer redundant. That means the middle ground is vanishing. So you need to make a choice if you want to go that way and become an end user (after you get your MBA , CIMA, DIMA, LLM, MD, FRCS & MRCP of course) or go the other way and enter what is known as hard core programming. What is hard core programming? Hard core programming is doing what an end user cannot do . [ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: Lalooprasad Yadav ]

Lalooprasad Yadav

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Posts: 92

posted 13 years ago

The IT industry is to blame for making programming tasks easy enough for the end user to tackle. Don't you wish the good old machine code and assembler days were here again ?

Mohanlal Karamchand

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Posts: 189

posted 13 years ago

Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav: Hard core programming is doing what an end user cannot do.

Correction. It's doing what an end user has neither the time nor the inclination to do.

Pradip Bhat

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Posts: 149

posted 13 years ago

{ The IT industry is to blame for making programming tasks easy enough for the end user to tackle } You are right .For many years,it was IT industry who wanted to see automation in each and every sector,claiming the reduction in cost.Now it is its own turn and people who want to make programming as a career are the victims.In the book, History of Computing,there are some pictures taken duing 1950s of some company in Los Angeles .One pic shows men/women working in big hall,another one of same hall,people reduced to almost 1/20th .This was during evolution of computer. [ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: rahul rege ]

Yeshwantpur

Amitabh Sharma

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Posts: 126

posted 13 years ago

I don�t fancy MBA or other such degrees anymore. They are too costly in terms of money, time and labor. If MBAs can do their own programming then surely profitable businesses can be run by people who do not have a business degree.

Mohanlal Karamchand

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Posts: 189

posted 13 years ago

Originally posted by Amitabh Sharma: then surely profitable businesses can be run by people who do not have a business degree.

Certainly. A guy called William H Gates has demonstrated that concept with a fair amount of success

Mohanlal Karamchand

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Posts: 189

posted 13 years ago

I remember trying to set up SQLServer 6.0 many years ago without reading the documentation properly. I had to go through the cycle of remove, read documentation, reinstall, thrice before I got it right. I also remember installing SQLServer 7.0 and getting it right the first time ( I try to avoid reading the documentation if I can help it ). Granted that I was already an experienced user of the product by then, but I noticed that it had become considerably easier. Look at MSOffice and the VBA thingie behind it and you can see what their vision is. They want to take computing to the end user. Java is another example of this, the user has to use very little effort, the framework does almost everything for him. Ultimately managing the storage and retrieval of data in the corporate environment will be done by the power user. Some of the developers who become obsolete will have to move on to a lower layer of computing. To what can be loosely referred to as infrastructural computing ie operating systems, RDBMS, development tools, web servers etc. A few others will move on to niche markets. Game programming is an example of a niche market. Those who refuse to re-train will have to leave the industry. [ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: Mohandas Karamchand ]

Anonymous

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Posts: 18944

posted 13 years ago

Yes,Another point is focus has been moved from technology to business.In one article in Scientific American,one programmer of 60s recalled how much insight was needed to write the programs before compiling and runing it.Now that task has beome much easy with new programming languages.Naturally imporatance(technically) of man(programmer) is reduced.so reducing the cost has become main factor.

Most of them are industrial engineers, MBA types , marketing analysts and various other kinds of fauna called "industry experts". They are capable of setting up a data source (Oracle or SQL server) and dishing out data (to those who consume the data they produce) through ASP or JSP (That's how I get so much spare time on my hands ) . Dozens of them can code decent C++ and Java. When you allow these kind of life forms to multiply it makes the corporate developer redundant.

True, but they don't have the time to program, they have much bigger things to do. And actually they would make better managers, because they understand the complications in development and give us more understanding and time to complete our projects. Versus a guy who knows nothing and asks you to build everything in a day. As far as finding jobs, I have no problem there. I know I can find a job anywhere anytime. It all depends on your skills. If you are good then you will get a job. If you aren't then I would suggest looking at a different career. I don't mean to be harsh in that statement. I want everyone to be successful. The market will not shrink, even when projects are completed there are always changes, and there is always rewrites because of outdated systems that will not work for much longer. My 2 cents Mark

Mark I appreciate your honesty, but I bet you say you can get a job anytime, only because you have tremendous experience. If you just graduated from college you would not be so confident. Getting an entry level position is impossible, even for the best Mark. Thanks for posting, Prem.

Prem, I agree, I have never had to experience wht happens right after college for IT work. SO I can't comment. Although from an interviewing standpoint, most fresh out of college applicants do get viewed differently. Meaning most of the time we want an expert and realize that it is rare for a college graduate to be an expert. Now if you see something that sticks out from a college graduates resume, it is possible for them to get a job, but it does need to be something special. Good Luck Mark

Originally posted by Mark Spritzler: True, but they don't have the time to program, they have much bigger things to do.

Pehaps I quoted the wrong example. Some of them do it because we give them a hard time. If we exclude the instances of code written in anger, it makes a lot of business sense to encourage this sort of thing.

i) A lot of effort is required to explain the business requirements to the developer. In spite of this effort the end result is not always what the business wanted. ii) It reduces the IT recharge. A saving in IT spending can be spent on other things. It gives the manager on a tight budget some room to maneouvre in. It gives him more flexiblity in rewarding his employees. iii) They are not busy all the time. It's a good idea to channel the idle time into a productive activity. iv) Implementation of data warehousing makes the task easier for the end user. He is able to get all the raw data he wants from a single source. More and more decision support applications will be developed by end users. This enables the IT employees to concentrate on supporting operational applications. The end result will be an overall reduction in IT manpower. v) It helps the employee to unwind. Many of them are hobbyists so he gets to spend some time on his hobby during working hours. v) When managers see the obvious advantages of having IT hobbyists on the workforce the IT hobbyist will have an edge over others when competing for jobs. This will encourage more people to aquire programming skills in addition to their core competencies. The end result will be more job cuts in the IT industry. [ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Mohandas Karamchand ]

Mohanlal Karamchand

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Posts: 189

posted 13 years ago

Hmmm...... A reasonably good analysis of business trends. If I may say so myself.

This forum gives us an opportunity to exercise our fancies. I fancy myself as a business management guru. Jason Menard fancies himself as a Man In Black defending democracy, apple pie and the north american chipmunk