If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

I hope you are not trying to derail this thread by bringing in the calendar issue. I think your use of "Church Calendar" is most provocative and unneeded at this time of fasting to many folks who are observing their Church calendar as well. Just consider this a friendly reminder. Thanks, Second Chance

I've observed Ramadan once, and honestly, it's a toss-up (food-wise). I did drink some juice and water during the day, but all I could do was think about food, food, food, and then I would eat until I got sick once the sun went down. I also would get up at 4:30 AM to eat an immense breakfast (much to the consternation of my roommate).

It just seems counter-intuitive. The Orthodox fast makes more sense to me.

However, eating hot chunks of grilled lamb kebab from the local Middle Eastern restaurant that was open late for Ramadan...well...kind of makes me waver.

May all of us spiritually benefit from this fasting season.

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

I hope you are not trying to derail this thread by bringing in the calendar issue. I think your use of "Church Calendar" is most provocative and unneeded at this time of fasting to many folks who are observing their Church calendar as well. Just consider this a friendly reminder. Thanks, Second Chance

I hope you are not trying to derail this thread by bringing in the calendar issue. I think your use of "Church Calendar" is most provocative and unneeded at this time of fasting to many folks who are observing their Church calendar as well. Just consider this a friendly reminder. Thanks, Second Chance

Second chance, just let it go. Geez.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Amen. One could consider threads like this provocative in their very nature. If you are a practicing Orthodox Christian, you know when your fasts begin, on any calendar.

Yes, but you may not know that Ramadan also starts today.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

I was working with Muslims in college years ago, and another Christian friend and I did it privately, just because we wanted to experience the fasting pattern (although I did cheat with drinking juice or water twice a day).

Obviously we didn't do the prayer or any of the other rituals involved. Probably not the best idea in retrospect, but I did conclude that I felt that the fast almost defeated the purpose of spiritual fasting, since some Muslims in Muslim majority countries find ways around the fast: closing their businesses during the day, sleeping it off, etc. And they could eat whatever they wanted at the appropriate times! Meh.

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

I'm an Old Calendarist, I'll join y'all next week in such a sacred occasion, though I am quite pleased you brought up Ramadan, its appropriate that we in Orthodox understand that Islam is no more inherently our enemy because of a few Koranic verses than we Christians are their enemies for similar passages in the Old Testament.

Rather, because Mohammad himself when in exile in Ethiopia of all places observed the strict piety of Orthodox Christianity and was inspired beyond the superstitious cultist religions he had lived in across the Red Sea in Arabia. Of course there were largely established Arab-Jewish kingdoms at that time but the rural folks of the Peninsula were more inclined towards their traditionalists beliefs, including the Ka'ba cult.

Anyways, while in Ethiopia Mohammad was inspired to incorporate Fasting specifically as a fundamental Pillar of Islam after seeing the notorious fasting culture of Ethiopian Christendom which was prevalent even over 1400 years ago! True, Mohammad did highly disagree all his years in exile with the religious imagery which is deeply embedded within the Ethiopian Faith, but that may also play into the pseudo-Jewish influence of the time which of course favored iconoclasm.

It is good to see connections and grounding Islam as a culture and religion separate from the Jihadists misappropriation of that religion, because Charity and Fasting as important as Prayer and doctrine in Islam. The sheer vast majority of Muslims are simple, pious folks who much like ourselves, spend a good deal of time in prayer, fasting, and doing charitable deeds as a form of common religious hospitality. During Ramadan then, when we Orthodox are serendipitously fasting at the same time as the Muslim communities, I enjoy to fellowship with them in the spirit of friendship and mutual tolerance.

Hey, if we can be nice to the Baptists and the Episcopalians surely we can be nice to the Muslims too

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 03:19:28 PM by HabteSelassie »

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Amen. One could consider threads like this provocative in their very nature. If you are a practicing Orthodox Christian, you know when your fasts begin, on any calendar.

Yes, but you may not know that Ramadan also starts today.

One, why would I care. I am not a Muslim. And two, since I am an Old Calendarist, any coincidence regarding the date would be lost on me since there is no coincidence with my Calendar. To be clear, you did nothing wrong with your post (at least in my opinion, for whatever that is worth). It just tends to become an issue on "mixed" boards such as these. My wife, who is a New Calendarist, would have fully appreciated your post in the manner that you intended it, not because she is a Muslim, but because she does most of the cooking in the house and does not have her nose in the Calendar as much as I do since the fasting Calendar on the refrigerator is a Serbian one..

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

I thought it was a good post, especially for those of us that are not Orthodox, and just looking in to it.

I learnt something new about your faith and The Dormition Fast.

Ramadam I knew about anyway, and we should make friends with the Muslims, they are our neighbours, not our enemies apart from the radicals who are not Muslim, only use it in a way it was never intended.

Amen. One could consider threads like this provocative in their very nature. If you are a practicing Orthodox Christian, you know when your fasts begin, on any calendar.

Yes, but you may not know that Ramadan also starts today.

One, why would I care. I am not a Muslim. And two, since I am an Old Calendarist, any coincidence regarding the date would be lost on me since there is no coincidence with my Calendar. To be clear, you did nothing wrong with your post (at least in my opinion, for whatever that is worth). It just tends to become an issue on "mixed" boards such as these. My wife, who is a New Calendarist, would have fully appreciated your post in the manner that you intended it, not because she is a Muslim, but because she does most of the cooking in the house and does not have her nose in the Calendar as much as I do since the fasting Calendar on the refrigerator is a Serbian one..

It is good to see connections and grounding Islam as a culture and religion separate from the Jihadists misappropriation of that religion, because Charity and Fasting as important as Prayer and doctrine in Islam.

As important in Islam as in many world religions... It's possible to find connections between Christianity and other religions. Buddhism has priesthood!

I was working with Muslims in college years ago, and another Christian friend and I did it privately, just because we wanted to experience the fasting pattern (although I did cheat with drinking juice or water twice a day).

Obviously we didn't do the prayer or any of the other rituals involved. Probably not the best idea in retrospect, but I did conclude that I felt that the fast almost defeated the purpose of spiritual fasting, since some Muslims in Muslim majority countries find ways around the fast: closing their businesses during the day, sleeping it off, etc. And they could eat whatever they wanted at the appropriate times! Meh.

Before I entered the Orthodox Church, I observed Lent, but using the Islamic fasting rules of Ramadan. The reason was because I didn't know about the Orthodox Church at the time, and other Christian churches didn't seem to observe Lent with fasting (including the RCC). Having gone to university in Manchester, on the other hand, meant that I knew plenty about Islamic religious practices.

Anyway, like you I didn't benefit very much from the fast, as you do end up stuffing yourself with food as soon as the sun sets. The Orthodox fasting rules, given to us by the fathers of the Church, are certainly better in encouraging a person to eat less and loosen his obsession with food; the Muslim practice encourages people to be obsessed with food... as that's all you're thinking about all day long!

It is good to see connections and grounding Islam as a culture and religion separate from the Jihadists misappropriation of that religion, because Charity and Fasting as important as Prayer and doctrine in Islam.

As important in Islam as in many world religions... It's possible to find connections between Christianity and other religions. Buddhism has priesthood!

[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.

[32] "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. [33] And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. [34] And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. [35] But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. [36] Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

I tell ya the hardest thing for me, has been trying to cut our dairy products. Dairy is in everything! Some kinda cheese or milk is even in potato chips, grr. I wonder how complicated this must make life for a vegan! I can cut out meat easily, just the cutting out "dairy" for the fast is something else -- anyone else have trouble with the dairy?

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Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity

I tell ya the hardest thing for me, has been trying to cut our dairy products. Dairy is in everything! Some kinda cheese or milk is even in potato chips, grr. I wonder how complicated this must make life for a vegan! I can cut out meat easily, just the cutting out "dairy" for the fast is something else -- anyone else have trouble with the dairy?

I don't. Since I don't look at every ingredient on the label like some kind of pharisee, but make a simple good faith effort to avoid things like milk, butter, ice cream, sour cream, cheese and the like, I don't let 0.005% whey in a product get me too uptight. In reality, if you don't make your own food, it is difficult to know exactly what is inside. I am pretty sure that whomever dreamed up the fasting rules did it well before the advent of processed foods.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

I tell ya the hardest thing for me, has been trying to cut our dairy products. Dairy is in everything! Some kinda cheese or milk is even in potato chips, grr. I wonder how complicated this must make life for a vegan! I can cut out meat easily, just the cutting out "dairy" for the fast is something else -- anyone else have trouble with the dairy?

I don't. Since I don't look at every ingredient on the label like some kind of pharisee, but make a simple good faith effort to avoid things like milk, butter, ice cream, sour cream, cheese and the like, I don't let 0.005% whey in a product get me too uptight. In reality, if you don't make your own food, it is difficult to know exactly what is inside. I am pretty sure that whomever dreamed up the fasting rules did it well before the advent of processed foods.

I agree with a number of points you are making here, but do you have to be such a curmudgeon?

I tell ya the hardest thing for me, has been trying to cut our dairy products. Dairy is in everything! Some kinda cheese or milk is even in potato chips, grr. I wonder how complicated this must make life for a vegan! I can cut out meat easily, just the cutting out "dairy" for the fast is something else -- anyone else have trouble with the dairy?

I don't. Since I don't look at every ingredient on the label like some kind of pharisee, but make a simple good faith effort to avoid things like milk, butter, ice cream, sour cream, cheese and the like, I don't let 0.005% whey in a product get me too uptight. In reality, if you don't make your own food, it is difficult to know exactly what is inside. I am pretty sure that whomever dreamed up the fasting rules did it well before the advent of processed foods.

You said, "...I don't look at every ingredient on the label like some kind of pharisee"....you know what's interesting? As strict as Orthodox Jews tend to be with the laws of kashrut, they're actually not as strict as some might think. For example, while EVERY bit of chametz (leavening) MUST be out of EVERYTHING for Pesach (Passover)...as St Paul said, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump", they are not as strict with non-Passover foods.

Cheese contains rennet, a binder to hold it together in firmness. Most rennets are animal-based, and most use pig ingredients which are not kosher. Kosher cheese contains animal rennet, but it is from a kosher animal, such as a cow. Yet doesn'tt his violate their prohibtiion against mixing meat and dairy? The rabbis say that the rennet has been so changed by the processing required to turn it into rennet, that such a tiny amount of animal product remains, so therefore it is acceptable.

Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

I tell ya the hardest thing for me, has been trying to cut our dairy products. Dairy is in everything! Some kinda cheese or milk is even in potato chips, grr. I wonder how complicated this must make life for a vegan! I can cut out meat easily, just the cutting out "dairy" for the fast is something else -- anyone else have trouble with the dairy?

I don't. Since I don't look at every ingredient on the label like some kind of pharisee, but make a simple good faith effort to avoid things like milk, butter, ice cream, sour cream, cheese and the like, I don't let 0.005% whey in a product get me too uptight. In reality, if you don't make your own food, it is difficult to know exactly what is inside. I am pretty sure that whomever dreamed up the fasting rules did it well before the advent of processed foods.

You said, "...I don't look at every ingredient on the label like some kind of pharisee"....you know what's interesting? As strict as Orthodox Jews tend to be with the laws of kashrut, they're actually not as strict as some might think. For example, while EVERY bit of chametz (leavening) MUST be out of EVERYTHING for Pesach (Passover)...as St Paul said, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump", they are not as strict with non-Passover foods.

Cheese contains rennet, a binder to hold it together in firmness. Most rennets are animal-based, and most use pig ingredients which are not kosher. Kosher cheese contains animal rennet, but it is from a kosher animal, such as a cow. Yet doesn'tt his violate their prohibtiion against mixing meat and dairy? The rabbis say that the rennet has been so changed by the processing required to turn it into rennet, that such a tiny amount of animal product remains, so therefore it is acceptable.

Is that true about the cheese being made with part of processed animals?

I tell ya the hardest thing for me, has been trying to cut our dairy products. Dairy is in everything! Some kinda cheese or milk is even in potato chips, grr. I wonder how complicated this must make life for a vegan! I can cut out meat easily, just the cutting out "dairy" for the fast is something else -- anyone else have trouble with the dairy?

I don't. Since I don't look at every ingredient on the label like some kind of pharisee, but make a simple good faith effort to avoid things like milk, butter, ice cream, sour cream, cheese and the like, I don't let 0.005% whey in a product get me too uptight. In reality, if you don't make your own food, it is difficult to know exactly what is inside. I am pretty sure that whomever dreamed up the fasting rules did it well before the advent of processed foods.

You said, "...I don't look at every ingredient on the label like some kind of pharisee"....you know what's interesting? As strict as Orthodox Jews tend to be with the laws of kashrut, they're actually not as strict as some might think. For example, while EVERY bit of chametz (leavening) MUST be out of EVERYTHING for Pesach (Passover)...as St Paul said, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump", they are not as strict with non-Passover foods.

Cheese contains rennet, a binder to hold it together in firmness. Most rennets are animal-based, and most use pig ingredients which are not kosher. Kosher cheese contains animal rennet, but it is from a kosher animal, such as a cow. Yet doesn'tt his violate their prohibtiion against mixing meat and dairy? The rabbis say that the rennet has been so changed by the processing required to turn it into rennet, that such a tiny amount of animal product remains, so therefore it is acceptable.

Is that true about the cheese being made with part of processed animals?

Yes, I first learned that as an Orthodox Jew (childhood), but also when I became a vegetarian later in life. Vegetarians won't use cheese unless its made from vegetable rennet (which does exist, but harder to get and more costly.)

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

I tell ya the hardest thing for me, has been trying to cut our dairy products. Dairy is in everything! Some kinda cheese or milk is even in potato chips, grr. I wonder how complicated this must make life for a vegan! I can cut out meat easily, just the cutting out "dairy" for the fast is something else -- anyone else have trouble with the dairy?

I don't. Since I don't look at every ingredient on the label like some kind of pharisee, but make a simple good faith effort to avoid things like milk, butter, ice cream, sour cream, cheese and the like, I don't let 0.005% whey in a product get me too uptight. In reality, if you don't make your own food, it is difficult to know exactly what is inside. I am pretty sure that whomever dreamed up the fasting rules did it well before the advent of processed foods.

You said, "...I don't look at every ingredient on the label like some kind of pharisee"....you know what's interesting? As strict as Orthodox Jews tend to be with the laws of kashrut, they're actually not as strict as some might think. For example, while EVERY bit of chametz (leavening) MUST be out of EVERYTHING for Pesach (Passover)...as St Paul said, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump", they are not as strict with non-Passover foods.

Cheese contains rennet, a binder to hold it together in firmness. Most rennets are animal-based, and most use pig ingredients which are not kosher. Kosher cheese contains animal rennet, but it is from a kosher animal, such as a cow. Yet doesn'tt his violate their prohibtiion against mixing meat and dairy? The rabbis say that the rennet has been so changed by the processing required to turn it into rennet, that such a tiny amount of animal product remains, so therefore it is acceptable.

Is that true about the cheese being made with part of processed animals?

Yes, I first learned that as an Orthodox Jew (childhood), but also when I became a vegetarian later in life. Vegetarians won't use cheese unless its made from vegetable rennet (which does exist, but harder to get and more costly.)

It is good to see connections and grounding Islam as a culture and religion separate from the Jihadists misappropriation of that religion, because Charity and Fasting as important as Prayer and doctrine in Islam.

As important in Islam as in many world religions... It's possible to find connections between Christianity and other religions. Buddhism has priesthood!

Hey, if we can be nice to the Baptists and the Episcopalians surely we can be nice to the Muslims too

stay blessed,habte selassie

Sure. I may invite a demon to my evening prayer soon. If we can be nice to Muslims, we can be nice to demons and Satan too.

Excuse me but there is no need to be so spiteful and bigoted. You can be prejudiced without being a jerk, or wait, probably not, that is the problem with prejudice, it is inherently rude

Brother, I'm not going to argue with what you are saying but I do feel I can't be exactly silent on the matter out of my conscience, but I will only say that you are greatly misinformed in some comments you've made above and I pray for you, me, them, and us all.

stay blessed,habte selassie

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

If the Muslims are such nice people, how did the Hagia Sophia become a mosque? Just a thought.

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

I tell ya the hardest thing for me, has been trying to cut our dairy products. Dairy is in everything! Some kinda cheese or milk is even in potato chips, grr. I wonder how complicated this must make life for a vegan! I can cut out meat easily, just the cutting out "dairy" for the fast is something else -- anyone else have trouble with the dairy?

Personally, I find oil to be a bigger challenge, but at the same time avoiding oil really simplifies things and almost forces you to eat what you should be eating anyway (fresh fruits, nuts, boiled or raw vegetables, beans, etc.). Oil of one kind or another is in practically everything that is packaged.

I was working with Muslims in college years ago, and another Christian friend and I did it privately, just because we wanted to experience the fasting pattern (although I did cheat with drinking juice or water twice a day).

Obviously we didn't do the prayer or any of the other rituals involved. Probably not the best idea in retrospect, but I did conclude that I felt that the fast almost defeated the purpose of spiritual fasting, since some Muslims in Muslim majority countries find ways around the fast: closing their businesses during the day, sleeping it off, etc. And they could eat whatever they wanted at the appropriate times! Meh.

Before I entered the Orthodox Church, I observed Lent, but using the Islamic fasting rules of Ramadan. The reason was because I didn't know about the Orthodox Church at the time, and other Christian churches didn't seem to observe Lent with fasting (including the RCC). Having gone to university in Manchester, on the other hand, meant that I knew plenty about Islamic religious practices.

Anyway, like you I didn't benefit very much from the fast, as you do end up stuffing yourself with food as soon as the sun sets. The Orthodox fasting rules, given to us by the fathers of the Church, are certainly better in encouraging a person to eat less and loosen his obsession with food; the Muslim practice encourages people to be obsessed with food... as that's all you're thinking about all day long!

Tariq used to do that. Have that hungry wolf look about him all day and then come sundown he would stuff himself with food usually junk stuff because it was the quickest and most nicest smelling. Then he would have a food belly for the next three hours and not be able to even move haha... so that was the evening gone and he always fell alseep because of the heavy meal thing lolOl Ramadan kills romance i think. Not that it applied to me and him.

Brother, I'm not going to argue with what you are saying but I do feel I can't be exactly silent on the matter out of my conscience, but I will only say that you are greatly misinformed in some comments you've made above and I pray for you, me, them, and us all.

stay blessed,habte selassie

One point needs clarification: I do not hate Muslims, but Islam. However, I would never trust Muslims. They have but one ideal: to conquer the world and make non-Muslims submit to Muhammad's ideology through every means of humiliation. This is what Islam actually means (submission)! You are evidently unaware of this fact. I shall pray for your enlightenment.

I know about that Poppy; They not only have to not eat, but - horror of horrors - not SMOKE! Needless to say, by 4 pm they were dangerous on the Jerusalem roads and not too polite in their shops either!

[/quote]and then come sundown he would stuff himself with food.[/quote]And how!

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Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding. Prov. 23:23.