HELP - AIR SEALING a Continuous Stone Interior/ Exterior Wall - Home Energy Pros2015-03-03T21:01:41Zhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/help-air-sealing-a-continuous-stone-interior-exterior-wall?commentId=6069565%3AComment%3A108109&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noTry log cabin chinking.tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-04-18:6069565:Comment:1144812013-04-18T23:11:53.072ZRobert D York Jrhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/RobertDYorkJr
<p>Try log cabin chinking.</p>
<p>Try log cabin chinking.</p> I've drilled wood window and…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-04-12:6069565:Comment:1141392013-04-12T13:42:27.334ZJim Baerghttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JimBaerg
<p>I've drilled wood window and door jambs on double wythe brick walls and then dense packed. Helped a lot. Dunno if that applies to your job.</p>
<p>I've drilled wood window and door jambs on double wythe brick walls and then dense packed. Helped a lot. Dunno if that applies to your job.</p> Air sealing a wall like this…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-03-18:6069565:Comment:1097542013-03-18T12:41:32.742ZBill Bradburyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/BillBradbury
<p>Air sealing a wall like this must be done with a vapor diffusive material or you will get spalled stone faces from sealing materials holding water. I recommend mixing hydrated lime with local clay soils, this is the way they have been sealed for millenia. Vapor open and beautiful. Do not use cement based products to fill the gaps as these are not vapor diffusive.</p>
<p>Air sealing a wall like this must be done with a vapor diffusive material or you will get spalled stone faces from sealing materials holding water. I recommend mixing hydrated lime with local clay soils, this is the way they have been sealed for millenia. Vapor open and beautiful. Do not use cement based products to fill the gaps as these are not vapor diffusive.</p> Finished Floor Area: 5,460 sf…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-03-14:6069565:Comment:1092032013-03-14T18:08:33.216ZJonathan Blueyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JonathanBluey
<p>Finished Floor Area: 5,460 sf / 59,340 cf / 4 Stories / Half Slab - Half Crawlspace</p>
<p>Finished Floor Area: 5,460 sf / 59,340 cf / 4 Stories / Half Slab - Half Crawlspace</p> Hi Jonathan,
I have the same…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-03-14:6069565:Comment:1088912013-03-14T17:20:34.362ZBogomil Stefanovhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/BogomilStefanov
<p>Hi Jonathan,</p>
<p>I have the same problem after the catastrophic result from Blower door test 30-35 ACH@50Pa of two stone built houses in mountain. I and my team <span id="result_box" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps">developed</span> <span id="result_box" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps">air</span> <span class="hps">sealing</span></span> <span class="hps">technology for</span> <span class="hps">stone walls</span> <span class="hps">without</span> <span class="hps">mo…</span></span></p>
<p>Hi Jonathan,</p>
<p>I have the same problem after the catastrophic result from Blower door test 30-35 ACH@50Pa of two stone built houses in mountain. I and my team <span id="result_box" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps">developed</span> <span id="result_box" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps">air</span> <span class="hps">sealing</span></span> <span class="hps">technology for</span> <span class="hps">stone walls</span> <span class="hps">without</span> <span class="hps">mo<span id="result_box" class="short_text" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps">rtar.</span></span></span></span></p>
<p><span lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps"><span class="short_text" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps">After the air sealing we <span id="result_box" class="short_text" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps">achieved</span> <span class="hps alt-edited">major success</span></span> to reduce the Blower door test results more that 3 times!</span></span></span></span></p>
<p><span lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps">Sorry for my poor english!</span></span></p>
<p><span lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps">Here is some thermograms, videos and photos from this project:</span></span></p>
<p><span lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n1nxrVZt_I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n1nxrVZt_I</a></span></span></p>
<p><span lang="en" xml:lang="en"><span class="hps"><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qYkfXUEmFJhAyy9gpbYMC48ng284mfSSpISrzMgIT9VvHbKD5DHomgeZuJy8xwo3VI9XsJLBSQfxAjYD0E5c07/IR_3195.jpg"><img class="align-left" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qYkfXUEmFJhAyy9gpbYMC48ng284mfSSpISrzMgIT9VvHbKD5DHomgeZuJy8xwo3VI9XsJLBSQfxAjYD0E5c07/IR_3195.jpg?width=721" width="721"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qI*eJdMlakRn6SfPwkPTWc6eTo40MxmxFgiyELmYHxNiBLtJ-4z9hq2WQu6Sr8uKYti6NgH51bFrfaIkGcCM5c/IR_3198.jpg"><img class="align-left" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qI*eJdMlakRn6SfPwkPTWc6eTo40MxmxFgiyELmYHxNiBLtJ-4z9hq2WQu6Sr8uKYti6NgH51bFrfaIkGcCM5c/IR_3198.jpg" width="600"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qCRnUBOfNYYSp10hUsqkN8LWHy9tUsm8TL4XziUq1RW4Vxh2zPIrvCOn3ynWLlS*u-R6N-bpfL90k4BRvIQ96b/IR_3504.jpg"><img class="align-left" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qCRnUBOfNYYSp10hUsqkN8LWHy9tUsm8TL4XziUq1RW4Vxh2zPIrvCOn3ynWLlS*u-R6N-bpfL90k4BRvIQ96b/IR_3504.jpg?width=721" width="721"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qZR6JQyttmHS7-OnnR5BLOStS9KYPYm3t3HgGUO6ApCrHeJxzbnm8dwQX0XFUViT6xWr1J1ocG7PywYEfcruZE/1.jpg"><img class="align-left" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qZR6JQyttmHS7-OnnR5BLOStS9KYPYm3t3HgGUO6ApCrHeJxzbnm8dwQX0XFUViT6xWr1J1ocG7PywYEfcruZE/1.jpg" width="718"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qfnUO9UvRavorntCYflNRdQ0MhkL9RoIGk2bRruMuDbsPiMrzQMlPg3oHVHnKEQTJNYeHF0F9lFJaE1NOycYL9/2.jpg"><img class="align-left" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qfnUO9UvRavorntCYflNRdQ0MhkL9RoIGk2bRruMuDbsPiMrzQMlPg3oHVHnKEQTJNYeHF0F9lFJaE1NOycYL9/2.jpg" width="717"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2rrEzckYhFdqqZ2kDJQwh9h1DuyAC4tplF7yylvw5haiJ4BBP0yqrdoF12YSMiGxU9pYWPj8yv56P2*l-dKUrEB/3.jpg"><img class="align-left" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2rrEzckYhFdqqZ2kDJQwh9h1DuyAC4tplF7yylvw5haiJ4BBP0yqrdoF12YSMiGxU9pYWPj8yv56P2*l-dKUrEB/3.jpg" width="716"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qSjAe0hrhmIcK8c8VAk5tUgB9pACpIEUAh6Sl6RnBJ4evfNdfFD23DAGBG0awPxXvOEndVhbkRzSsv3CtUV8me/5.jpg"><img class="align-left" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2qSjAe0hrhmIcK8c8VAk5tUgB9pACpIEUAh6Sl6RnBJ4evfNdfFD23DAGBG0awPxXvOEndVhbkRzSsv3CtUV8me/5.jpg" width="719"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2opIVGrwLzTzjc-ohqFEPSSKQS-qm6KFSNyVoIWzZl9pTfckEQRk9zfvorqOoWsd5N1SC9ZN7nFkbvpCTw53pnc/6.jpg"><img class="align-left" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/cZ-SnQ88P2opIVGrwLzTzjc-ohqFEPSSKQS-qm6KFSNyVoIWzZl9pTfckEQRk9zfvorqOoWsd5N1SC9ZN7nFkbvpCTw53pnc/6.jpg" width="714"/></a></span></span></p>
<p></p> I had a similar issue with an…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-03-14:6069565:Comment:1089812013-03-14T15:49:11.787ZChris Dwyerhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/ChrisDwyer
<p>I had a similar issue with an exposed historic brick wall in a condo I was testing. We couldn't find the leak with our eyes or thermal imaging becuase the leak was EVERYWHERE. We confirmed this when we taped a sheet of poly over the wall and when we kicked on the blower door, the poly ballooned like crazy at the slightest pressure change. The owner sealed every mortar joint with silicone caulk and then painted the wall (~20' x 10') with several gallons of a transparent sealer. The porous…</p>
<p>I had a similar issue with an exposed historic brick wall in a condo I was testing. We couldn't find the leak with our eyes or thermal imaging becuase the leak was EVERYWHERE. We confirmed this when we taped a sheet of poly over the wall and when we kicked on the blower door, the poly ballooned like crazy at the slightest pressure change. The owner sealed every mortar joint with silicone caulk and then painted the wall (~20' x 10') with several gallons of a transparent sealer. The porous brick guzzled the paint like crazy. It was very important to the owner to have the urban loft feel of the exposed brick. Sealing just this one section of one of the four exposed walls reduced air infiltration from 14 <a href="mailto:ACH@50">ACH@50</a> to &lt;7 <a href="mailto:ACH@50">ACH@50</a>.</p> It looks to me like the main…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-03-12:6069565:Comment:1083352013-03-12T04:11:49.276ZPat Dundonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Patdundon
<p>It looks to me like the main leakage is from the intersection of stone and conventional framing, not necessarily directly through the wall. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>In the second picture, is the stone i see that appears to be interior actually a reflection? I suspect it is. in the shot with the recessed lights, I am looking in from outside too, right? if so, does the stone wall pass through those features and continue inside? If not, why not cut away the interior sheetrock finishes and approach…</p>
<p>It looks to me like the main leakage is from the intersection of stone and conventional framing, not necessarily directly through the wall. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>In the second picture, is the stone i see that appears to be interior actually a reflection? I suspect it is. in the shot with the recessed lights, I am looking in from outside too, right? if so, does the stone wall pass through those features and continue inside? If not, why not cut away the interior sheetrock finishes and approach the Butt end of the stone wall in the interstitial space with foam? Do the same at the soffit. Then do a blower door test and use smoke to identify any leaks you may have missed at these transitions that are ininterstitial space and seal those. Then put the sheetrock back up and refinish it. </p> Thanks everyone for your inpu…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-03-11:6069565:Comment:1086182013-03-11T19:43:47.775ZJonathan Blueyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JonathanBluey
<p>Thanks everyone for your input. The test was a two blower door test (that only got up to -43 Pa) - we had to add up both manometer readings and use the Can't Reach Fifty factor. The wall is a facade about 3" thick (with concrete masonry on ext. and wood insulated framing on int.) that is made to look like a dry stack wall - mortar is used in the back for stability. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Below was a recommendation by another co-worker that I think I am leaning towards using:</p>
<p></p>
<p>Because…</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for your input. The test was a two blower door test (that only got up to -43 Pa) - we had to add up both manometer readings and use the Can't Reach Fifty factor. The wall is a facade about 3" thick (with concrete masonry on ext. and wood insulated framing on int.) that is made to look like a dry stack wall - mortar is used in the back for stability. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Below was a recommendation by another co-worker that I think I am leaning towards using:</p>
<p></p>
<p>Because the original construction process was mismanaged and the masons installed the rock prior to other finishes, your options are somewhat limited if you are to maintain the dry stack appearance. I would recommend that you seek to limit the air leakage in the following manner.</p>
<p> </p>
<ol>
<li>Obtain a piece of the mortar used to “seal” between the door and the rock. This sample can be used to “color match” a terpolymer rubber adhesive/sealant such as Solar Seal #900.</li>
<li>Drill 3/8” cores in each horizontal “mortar” joint ( I will call them mortar joints even though it is dry stacked) as close to the door jamb as possible. The proximity of the hole to jamb will depend on the final finish used to bridge the jamb to rock transition which at present is the vertical mortar joint.</li>
<li>Install the terpolymer rubber adhesive/sealant in each of these cores. This will provide air sealing points at each of the major contributors at the most critical point.</li>
<li>Final finish: Option 1) assess the color match and blending of the existing mortar and terpolymer rubber adhesive/sealant to determine if further finishing is required. Option 2) Apply new mortar. Option 3) Score rock 5/8” along door jamb into which a color matched Aluminum angle trim 1/2”x1/2” can be installed. This angle transition can be adhered to the rock with the terpolymer rubber adhesive/sealant used in the cores. It can be sealed to the door jamb with a color matching sealant.</li>
<li>Repeat process for interior side of jamb. May want to test progress of exterior prior to.</li>
<li>Test with blower door and smoke pencil to assess improvement and locate problem areas.</li>
<li>As to the soffit to rock transition. I would recommend scribing the rock prior to removing the soffit. Based on the thickness of the soffit and the amount of rock that protrudes there are a couple of options. If the finished soffit material is thick enough, then a new piece which will extend beyond the rock can be planed and installed. If the finished soffit material is not thick enough, then the rock can be cut to allow for the finsished soffit to extend beyond the rock. If there is insufficient room to cut the rock, then it may be necessary to either remove the top row of rock to be reinstalled to fit under the finished soffit or consider continuing the Aluminum trim across the soffit behind which other potentially unsightly air sealing measures have been applied.</li>
</ol> Are you saying that there's n…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-03-08:6069565:Comment:1081092013-03-08T04:19:16.411ZDavid Meilandhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DavidMeiland
<p>Are you saying that there's not a block or poured concrete wall in the middle of all that stone? That's almost inconceivable to me in modern construction, but I suppose it's possible... in which case you would have to grout the entire thing, probably on all sides. I would call a commercial stone maintenance/restoration company if you have access to such a thing--those are the guys who know how to put mortars and sealants into gaps and make it look good.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If it's just the gaps…</p>
<p>Are you saying that there's not a block or poured concrete wall in the middle of all that stone? That's almost inconceivable to me in modern construction, but I suppose it's possible... in which case you would have to grout the entire thing, probably on all sides. I would call a commercial stone maintenance/restoration company if you have access to such a thing--those are the guys who know how to put mortars and sealants into gaps and make it look good.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If it's just the gaps between stones at places where door and window jambs are let in, then it's hard to see how it's responsible for all that leakage, although we can't see the extent of the stone in the few shots you posted. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Question about your manometer setup. You appear to have your indoor references teed together and piped away from the manometer. What's the reason? And, you appear to have -43pa at ~5250 CFM, so how did you come up with the 11,000 number?</p> Jonathan,
Is it possible to c…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-03-07:6069565:Comment:1078132013-03-07T21:40:50.069ZWalter Moneyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/WalterMoney
<p>Jonathan,</p>
<p>Is it possible to cover the wall adequately enough to isolate that air leakage? Even if you covered the wall exterior and interior with plastic sheeting, or covered the exterior, and built a plastic wall on the interior, you might be able to verify a quantity of air leakage from the wall. Given the pictures of the house, it looks custom built. Before you go intruding on the mortar joints, (or voids, if a dry laid wall), you might want to verify the wall is the biggest…</p>
<p>Jonathan,</p>
<p>Is it possible to cover the wall adequately enough to isolate that air leakage? Even if you covered the wall exterior and interior with plastic sheeting, or covered the exterior, and built a plastic wall on the interior, you might be able to verify a quantity of air leakage from the wall. Given the pictures of the house, it looks custom built. Before you go intruding on the mortar joints, (or voids, if a dry laid wall), you might want to verify the wall is the biggest leakage site. If it is, try backer rod or injected foam from the outside into the joints, covered with a clear siliconized caulk, and recessed as much as reasonable. It may be quite a time consuming project, another reason to verify the culprit.</p>