The second match up saw a vintage /r/asoiaf grudge match with resident matron /u/Jen_Snow taking on the quiet lion, the crab man himself /u/hamfast42 possibly for the fate of the subreddit? We'll need verification on that bet. /u/Jen_snow proved victorious with her essay covering GOT Danerys X "Magic is cooler when it’s dangerous" showing how it's a good thing that the magic of ASOIAF is unpredictable and dangerous, acting almost as another main character. Our condolences to /u/hamfast42's unique entry "The Marriage Metaphor of Magic" which showed us how magic in ASOIAF is a pact between itself and the user, and you only get out what you put in. Sometimes you get three dragons.

A great thanks to our fallen competitors, and the best of luck to you all in future competitions! We hope you will compete again.

And for those who survived the quarterfinals, we move onto the semi-finals. The meme-lord herself, the mistress of copypasta /u/guildensterncrantz will take on the wise and stoic /u/somethinglikealawyer in one exciting semi-final of clashing styles and pop culture references. The second semi-final will feature /u/Jen_Snow continuing her ascent to victory but the vicious and unyielding steel of /u/bookshelfstud stands in her way, armed with puns and dreamscapes. Who will win the coveted honor of declaring their King/Queen of Love and Beauty and why will it definitely be /u/BryndenBFish?

Semi-finals will re-commence on Sunday December 11th. The full tournament bracket is available here. We'll be changing up some of the ways voting and discussion will work for the next round, and we will also be providing previews of the next round topics during this coming week so make sure you come back and check for updates! Also the competitors are now free to post their essays on their own, so if you liked them and wanted to ask questions of the authors make sure and bug them mercilessly until they post.

/r/asoiaf_cosplay — This subreddit is devoted to costumed play based on George R.R. Martin's popular book series A Song of Ice and Fire, which has recently been produced into an HBO Original Series Game Of Thrones

/r/ThronesComics — This is a humor subreddit for comics that reference the HBO show Game of Thrones or the book series A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin.

Intro

From time to time, I get asked "who is the best military commander in Westeros?" Strangely, I find this question difficult to answer mainly because there's a lot of different ways to answer. Who is the best tactical commander? The best strategic commander? Who is the best infantry, cavalry or naval commander? Who wins battles against all odds? Moreover, while I typically answer "Stannis Baratheon", I always have to caveat that he presided over the single-greatest battlefield loss in the War of the Five Kings at King's Landing.

So! I figure I turn it over to you all to see what you think. I'll detail some of points for and against each of the below candidates and let you all in the comments do battle!

Robb Stark

Points For

Defeated Jaime Lannister at the Whispering Wood

Took out most of the rest of the Westermen host besieging Riverrun

Used a goat trail to bypass the Golden Tooth to invade the Westerlands.

Smashed Stafford Lannister's host at Oxcross

Took the Crag and Ashemark during his Westerlands campaign

Points Against

Failed to disclose to Edmure Tully his commander's intent of luring Tywin Lannister west to lead him on a grand chase and eventual ambush.

Died at dinner.

Tywin Lannister

Points For

Crushed the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion on the field of battle and later drowned the holdouts at Castamere by redirecting a river.

Successfully sacked Duskendale

Gained entry into King’s Landing and sacked the city effectively ending Robert’s Rebellion.

Defeated Roose Bolton at the Green Fork

Successfully maneuvered on Stannis Baratheon's besieging army and King's Landing and took him in the flank and rear.

Points Against

His fleet was burned by the Ironborn during the Greyjoy Rebellion

The Green Fork was actually a misdirection by Robb Stark to keep Tywin's army east of the Green Fork and away from Robb's true objective: Jaime Lannister and Riverrun

Defeated by Edmure Tully at Stone Hedge

Stannis Baratheon

Points For

Held Storm’s End for a year against Mace Tyrell’s siege during Robert’s Rebellion

Seized Dragonstone

Defeated Victarion Greyjoy and the Iron Fleet at sea during the Battle of Fair Isle during the Greyjoy Rebellion

Invaded and took Great Wyck during the Greyjoy Rebellion

Droned Renly Baratheon

Crushed Mance Rayder and his Wildlings at the Wall utilizing speed and maneuver with his cavalry

Defeated Asha Greyjoy at Deepwood Motte by using indigenous forces and camouflage to cover his avenue of approach

Seemingly has a plan to defeat the Freys riding for him on Winterfell

Points Against

Badly defeated at the Siege of King’s Landing by Tyrell and Lannister cavalry that took him in the flank and rear

His army is starving and dying by the droves during his march through the winter storms outside of Winterfell

Randyll Tarly

Points For

Issued Robert Baratheon his only defeat during Robert’s Rebellion at the Battle of Ashford

Commanded the center during Tywin’s attack on Stannis at Blackwater

Defeated Robbet Glover and Helman Tallhart at Duskendale

Said to be the finest soldier in the realm by Kevan Lannister

Points Against

The victory at Ashford was said to be inconclusive

His victory at Duskendale likely came as a result of Roose Bolton treacherously passing intelligence onto the Lannisters ahead of the Red Wedding

What if Archmaester Marwyn is the mummer's dragon?
Remember, the Cinnamon wind has the dead body of Aemon Targaryen in a cask of rum, presumable to preserve the body.

When the Cinnamon Wind reached Old Town, Sam had not removed Aemon's body from the ship, so the body is still inside the ship. Marwyn will be traveling using the Cinnamon Wind to travel to Daenerys.

We know Marwyn interacts with all sorts of pepole; wizards, red priests, summer islanders, ibbenese, scholars, priests, etc. Plus he has been to Asshai by the shadow. He must have learnt a lot of stuff there.
What if Marwyn transforms into Maester Aemon's appearance just like Melisandre gave Mance the appearance of Rattleshirt using her magic? Perhaps, Marwyn too knows this skill.
So Marwyn, would pretend to Daenerys that he is Maester Aemon, using Aemon's appearance for whatever purpose. So he would be the mummers (fake) dragon.
What do you guys think?

(Maybe Aemon could be burnt in some sort of blood ritual/sacrifice to awaken some dragon eggs or some other purpose?)

Long-time lurker, short-term commenter, first-time poster here. I'm almost done reading through TWOIAF, and I'm just amazed at the amount of lore and history put into this series. I'm curious as to what others' favorite historical characters are, and why?

Mine'd have to be Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen of Dragonstone, because she sounds like a major BAMF even if a little power-lusty.

I have seen posts about peoples' favorite characters or posts about what character do you love or hate that everybody else seems to hate or love. But what I want to know is what characters seems to get a strong reaction out of people (positive or negative) that you just don't care about?

So in ADWD George introduces the character Young Griff. Tyrion finds out that He is actually (or at least he is told as much) Aegon Targaryen, Rhaegar's only son. Many people have a feeling that this boy is actually not who is said to be, becauase he is introduced so late to be such an important character. This got me thinking, and bear with me here, about another somewhat unpopular theory. I'm referring to A+J=T or The Mad King being Tyrion's father. As we all know the prophecy that Rhaegar was obsessed with had an important tenant of "The Dragon Has 3 Heads." What if George orignally intended for the 3 heads of the dragon to be Jon Snow, Daenerys, and Tyrion, and for all of them to be Targaryens. He put in the foreshadowing of Tyrion being a Targ but somewhere along the way changed his mind. It was too late to introduce another seceret Targ with no foreshadowing, So he left Tyrion's parentage unclear so we could always question it, and introduced (f)Aegon to ACTUALLY be a Targ anf the 3rd head of the dragon? Tell me what you think!

A horse is not just a horse, and George shows this in ASOIAF with use of specific historical terminology for different horse types. As an equestrian I find this interesting, so I've been doing a bit of research just for fun to find what the different types of horse are and what they would look like as well as uncovering some modern equivalents.

I realise there are probably many on this sub who are not too familiar with horses, so hopefully this will give you an idea and better understanding the next time you come across a destrier or a palfrey. I've found some old posts on this sub about the subject, but they are a year old or more and were not very comprehensive.

I have taken each type of horse, used the description from A Wiki of Ice and Fire and the description of the historical type to give a better understanding of the horses, and I've found the modern equivalent as far as I have been able.

I have tucked a TL;DR and some sources at the bottom. And there's of course pictures abound.

Horse Types

According to the Wiki, the classification of horses in ASOIAF seem to mostly correspond to their real-life counterpart except for the Dornish Sand Steeds which is an original creation. This type of classification was typical in medieval times when what the horse could be used for was more important than the breed, and as such horses were named for their usage. Nevertheless there are some clues as to which modern breeds they may have looked like.

A horse's height is measured from the ground to the withers (the ridge between the shoulder blades). A pony is a horse below 147 cm of height.

Destrier

Destriers are tall, strong, splendid animals and are often high spirited. Destriers give knights a majestic air at tournaments. They are normally the most valuable type of horse, being well bred and highly trained. Some even consider them too valuable to risk in war thus the courser is the preferred mount for fighting.

The destrier was used for battle and jousting, as we also see in ASOIAF. They needed strength and were powerful horses, but they lacked endurance. They must be able to carry very heavy armour and at the same time run and even fight. They were among other things used in "shock combat", which involved using heavy cavalry in mowing down enemies. The destrier must respond to the rider's commands using leg pressure because the arms were generally occupied, and it must be able to bite and kick, trample enemies and have explosive energy. It would also have to be mentally strong and not shy from the smell and sight of blood and death and the general hullabaloo of battle.

Modern breeds
Even though sources are a little split on the modern type of destrier they are all in agreement that it was a powerful, muscular type, probably with little stamina, but considerable strength. They were not as tall as many of the modern equivalents, but rather around 150-160 cm (15-16 hands) and had a low center of gravity.

Percheron. Powerful horses with muscular bodies. Originally bred for use in war. Here's one huge one and one charging. Put a knight on it and you're good to go.

Andalusian or PRE (Pura Rasa Español). Lighter than how the destrier is described, but it has traits of said horse and was bred as a war horse. The Spanish walk is a dressage move which evidently originated from the battlefield where it was used to kick down enemies. This is the Spanish walk in action. Another example. For your information, being hit by a horse is painful. I speak from experience.

Spanish Norman. This is in fact a modern cross bred to resemble the old warhorse. It's a Percheron-Andalusian cross, and as such may be a very close counterpart to GRRM's destrier. One of the closest, in my opinion. Here's one, and one in action. Not sure about the rider's sword-wielding, but that's not my field of expertise.

Quarter Horse. The fastest horse over 400 meters or a quarter mile, it has muscular hindquarters and can turn on a dime. This breed almost fits the profile, but I think they are too light. Quarter.

Friesian. This one and others like it was most likely used in certain areas of Europe. They are very elegant horses, now often used in dressage (edit, lower level dressage), driving and recreational riding. It is majestic, black coat, with long flowing mane and tail. The modern type of friesian is lighter than the older war version, because after plate armour fell out of use the horse carried lighter weights, and Andalusian blood was added for a nobler type. The Fresian is still a sturdy breed, but now slightly nobler because of the Spanish blood. Here's one. And here's what appears to be Death riding a Friesian.

All in all I would say that the destrier is the equivalent of the modern Spanish Norman.

Courser

Lighter than destriers and less costly, coursers are still beautiful animals. Coursers are also strong and fast, fit for war and for hunting. Warhorses are usually coursers, although they may in rare occasions be destriers. The expected mount of knights and nobility when they find themselves in combat or jousting situations.

Coursers were smaller than destriers, maybe even below the "pony limit" at 147 cm (14.5 hands See edit) and had more speed and endurance than destriers. They were used in battle and as the mounts of messengers on the battlefield because of their speed. They were used in everyday life too, among other things for hunting.

Modern Breeds

The English Thoroughbred. This is the racehorse and is one type of horse that slightly resembles a courser in ASOIAF. They are the fastest horses over distances surpassing 400 meters and have high endurance. I do believe the thoroughbred may be a little too noble to carry much armour and as such not exactly what we're looking for.

Warmblood horses. There are many different types depending on country of origin and whatnot. The warmbloods are a bit heavier than the thoroughbred, but still fast and agile. Dutch and Danish.

Heavy Warmblood. This is in my opinion the most likely candidate. There are several breeds that fit under this type, they are the ancestors of modern warmbloods and fit the pre-world war model of an all-purpose utility horse. It is as the name implies a heavier type of warmblood and as such sturdier and stronger, but still fast and agile. Alt-Oldenburger/Ostfriesen, Alt-Württemberger, Rottaler, Groningen and Gelderlander.

Based on the fact that it can stand in for a destrier on the battlefield and because of that would have to be able to carry heavy armour I think the courser in ASOIAF resembles a modern heavy warmblood, like the Alt-Oldenburger/Ostfriesen.

Palfrey

The distinguishing characteristic of a palfrey is its ambling capability that makes it a more comfortable mount for long riding journeys. A well-bred palfrey may be as expensive as a destrier. Even royalty and high nobility will often be seen riding palfreys, although they are not meant for combat or jousting.

This is an interesting type of horse. Horses generally have three basic gaits. Those are the walk, the trot and the gallop. The palfrey on the other hand is an ambling horse, and they have at least one more gait. The ambling gait is a smooth four-beat walk that is faster than the walk, slower than the gallop and about the same speed as the trot. The ability to amble has been mapped to a gene, and it's not something that any horse could learn, but rather it occurs in certain breeds. This gait is much smoother than the trot, and for a horse that naturally ambles, the gait is less tiring and can be maintained over long distances.

Here you can see the fast version of tölt, a gait of the Icelandic Horse, notice how smooth it is for the rider, even when the horse goes fast. You can in fact count the rythm by repeating "dance-with-dragons" with one syllable for each hoofbeat.

Modern breeds

Peruvian Paso. Several breeds have ambling gaits, but the Peruvian Paso is probably the most like the medieval palfrey. It's quite a nice-looking animal.

Other candidates are American Saddlebred, Tennessee Walking Horse, Missouri Fox Trotter and Paso Fino. Even though they can amble, the Icelandic horse doesn't quite fit this category.

Because it is most like the medieval palfrey, the horse that best fits the ASOIAF palfrey is probably the Peruvian Paso. The others may not be too dissimilar either way, as the important characteristic is the gait.

Garron

North of the Wall, Garrons are the only reasonable choice of horse (although other, rarer horselike animals might perhaps exist). Both the Night's Watch and its enemies use them in considerable numbers, both for riding and carrying cargo. Among horses, garrons are notable for their capability to deal with irregular terrain and cold temperatures. Under extreme cold, they fare better than palfreys and far better than destriers, who have considerably higher eating demands and are not particularly capable of dealing with snow.

The Wiki says it all, really. The term Garron occurs in Scotland and Ireland and is used for the Highland Pony and some out-bred types of said horse.

Modern breeds

Icelandic Horse, Nordland Horse, and Norwegian Fjord horse. These three are certainly the kind of horse I see as garrons. They are sturdy, sure-footed and cope extremely well in cold temperatures. They can also survive on little feed. Icelandic Horse, Nordland Horse and Fjord Horse.

The Highland Pony. This breed is heavier than the nordic types, more like draft horses. Still, these were actually called garrons. Highland Ponies.

The garron from the Isles might be what George is referring to when he says garron, but I would prefer some of the nordic breeds because of their easy manoeuvring in rocky and snowy terrain and their size. I think the Highland pony is a little too big and heavy. Feel free to disagree, but I'll simply say that I think it resembles something between an Icelandic Horse and a Highland Pony, and most like the former.

Rounsey

A strong and capable steed of no particular breeding. Although rounseys are perfectly capable war horses, they are relegated to hedge knights, squires, and non-knightly men-at-arms. Rounsey are common riding horses and may also be used as pack animals.

This was the horse for the farmers and the lower class. Can be most all-round breeds, with size from big pony to medium height horse. Preferably strong enough to pull a cart and carry some weight. I'd go for a heavier type of courser, and not as well-bred.

Sand Steed

Common in Dorne, it is a smaller than normal warhorse and cannot bear the weight of the armor (barding) that a warhorse usually wears. They are able to run for a day and a half before tiring.

I don't think there's much question as to the real-life equivalent of the sand steed. It is of course the Arabian. It is a small horse, very noble and light, a horse with both endurance and speed. And it comes from the desert. Here is one, and one in the desert.

Stot

An inferior or worthless horse.

Simple as that. They would probably look a bit flee-bitten and swaybacked.

Dray

Dray horses, also called plow horses, are strong horses meant for heavy tasks. They are not necessarily unfit for riding, although they will not be the best choice for combat situations.

Sources

Thank you for the positive feedback! Some people have pointed out a few things that I wanted to add.

As u/JmBa123 pointed out, the Friesian is not really a dressage horse. But it is a helluva carriage horse.

u/ChickenDerby has taught me some non-metric things and I want to point out that 14.5 hands means 14 hands and 5 inches. I hope I got this right this time. Edit2. I have been thoroughly beaten by the non-metric unit and apologise for the mix-up. The pony-limit is at 58 inches. 58/4=14.5, and 0.5*4=2. So a pony is 14 hands 2 inches. Which is written as 14.2 hh.

A few people have pointed out that canter is in fact a fourth gait in horses and not simply a collected gallop and that it has three beats instead of four. They are right, of course. :)

And now some extra info.

A stallion is a male horse, a colt is a young male horse, up to a certain point in age, usually up to four years.

A mare is a female horse, a filly is a young female horse, usually up to four years, in some cases people push it to five.

A gelding is a castrated male horse.

A foal is a baby horse.

A few commenters pointed out that Dany's Silver could be an Akhal-Teke, a horse breed from Turkmenistan, and it is a fantastic suggestion. This is officially my headcanon now. They have a very shiny coat. Do a little google and see for yourself.

They were both rebelling against the Lannisters. Was Stannis really planning on executing Robb for treachery? I get the shadow baby assassination, it was a brilliant move politically, but killing Robb isn't. Robb's army is the only thing keeping Tywin away from King's Landing, Stannis needs Robb's help to win the throne. Would Robb not have immediately bent the knee to Stannis had he taken KL, and thus gaining huge support in their fight against the Lannisters? If so, I can't see Stannis stubbornly insisting Robb is still a traitor at that point. Stannis is shown to be somewhat flexible with justice (Mance swapping) but on my reread of ACoK Stannis seems a lot more hostile to the Northerners than I remember. I'm now not sure. How do you guys think things play out with a Stannis King and the Northern Independence?

GRRM: Would like to write about leper king of Jerusalem - has a lot of empathy for his problems and it’s a fascinating exercise to try to get into his mind. Creation of a character who is not like yourself is very difficult. You have to be able to project yourself into these different kinds of people.

I think Jon Connington is GRRM's homage to Baldwin VI "the Leper" King of Jerusalem, whom he wanted to write about so much.

You're GRRM, you've dealt with years and years of fans badgering you about plot points, theories, incredibly minor details and when the next book is going to be released. You're sick of it, you're tired of hearing about it constantly. You've decided to give a big fuck you to all your fans and end the series in your next "release", a short, free to read text post.

How do you end this story in a way to piss off the most fans? Do you just nuke the world? Do you tie up all the major threads in incredibly stupid ways? How do you end this in the most unsatisfying anger inducing way possible? How do you end this series in such a way where you can be content in knowing you pissed off thousands if not millions of people looking for a good conclusion to what has been a fantastic story?

Roose Bolton was seated by the hearth reading from a thick leatherbound book when she
entered. “Light some candles,” he commanded her as he turned a page. “It grows gloomy in
here.”

She placed the food at his elbow and did as he bid her, filling the room with flickering light and
the scent of cloves. Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and
placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected
light. The old dry leather went up with a whoosh, and the yellow pages stirred as they burned, as
if some ghost were reading them. “I will have no further need of you tonight,” he said, never
looking at her.

This might be an inconsequential detail, but what is this book he was reading, and why did he burn it? Is this explained somewhere?

WARNING! First post on this sub! This is quite a bit tin-foily, and fun to write, but ties together a couple predictions with my own twist (I think).

Jaime returns to Kings Landing to find the Sept of Baelor in ruins. Queen Cersei, now childless, considers banishing Jaime to the Wall in her madness. Cersei hears of dragons, real dragons at her doorstep, and considers the wildfire.

She forges an alliance and marriage to Euron, only in title, to cling to her power. But it is not enough. With King's Landing almost fallen from starvation, riots, and rebellions, with enemies all around her, she decides to end the horror that she started at the Sept.

Before she gives the command, Sandor, with the Brotherhood, interrupt her in the middle of the task after killing Robert Strong. Jaime is in quite the familiar situation. He attempts to show Cersei mercy with an embrace, but Cersei produces a knife and backstabs Jaime, attempting to take him with her into the next life. Jaime then strangles her as they die together in a tragic embrace.

But Brienne's kiss/tears (Thoros' prayer) brings Jaime back. Jaime's death and rebirth have absolved him of all crimes, but Jaime decides to head to the Wall as the realm is in ruins and Jaime has nothing left besides Widow's Wail. Brienne follows. They have an incredible moment of intimacy along the way. Jaime feels whole again.

They come to the Wall to find it leaderless and losing the fight against the Others. Jaime rises to become the 1,000th LC and effectively rallies the troops but ultimately fails as the Others break through. Jaime and Brienne do massive damage to the Night King's lieutenants with their Valyrian Steel blades.

Jaime ultimately redeems himself and his arc by doing the opposite of what he thought would bring honor. By saving Bran, and ultimately giving his life to him. By taking the black instead of the white, embracing ugliness instead of beauty, others over self, and silent sacrifice instead of great deeds.

He will find honor, it will be bittersweet, and it will definitely be glorious.

In this post I'm going to talk about the Dragonlords who survived the doom but were later murdered anyway. It is said that the surviving Dragonlords were killed by the citizen of Tyrosh and Lys but I think that it was the work of the Faceless Men.

The doom was not the end for all the Dragonlords of Valyria there were some who had survived. The survivors were the Targaryen Family, Aurion the first (and self-proclaimed) Emperor of Valyria and some Dragonlords who were in Tyrosh and Lys during the doom.

Nowadays the Targaryen’s are the only surviving Dragonlords. So what happened to the other dragonlords?

It is said that Aurion proclaimed himself as the first emperor of Valyria and raised an army of Qohorik colonists to claim what was left of the Valyria Freehold. Aurion and his army where never seen again.
Besides Aurion there where some Dragonlords who were in Tyrosh and Lys during the events of the doom.

Some accounts claim that a few others survived, too...for a time. It is said that some Valyrian dragonlords in Tyrosh and Lys were spared, but that in the immediate political upheaval following the Doom, they and their dragons were killed by the citizens of those Free Cities. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria)

The mighty Valyrian Dragonlords and their dragons killed by ordinary citizens? I don’t believe that. My guess: these citizens weren’t just ordinary citizens but Faceless Men.

Nevertheless, we know that during the Dance of Dragons four dragons where killed by an angry mob of citizens.

no two chronicles agree on how many men and women died that night beneath the Dragonpit’s great dome: two hundred or two thousand, be that as it may. For every man who perished, ten suffered burns and yet survived. Trapped within the pit, hemmed in by walls and dome and bound by heavy chains, the dragons could not fly away, or use their wings to evade attacks and swoop down on their foes.

Four dragons trapped and chained and nowhere to go, were able to kill hundreds or thousands of their attackers before getting killed. This doesn’t seem to be a lot of kills for four dragons but we must not forget their negative circumstances (being chained and trapped in a Dragonpit). The dragons that were slain during the storming of the Dragonpit are Dreamfyre, Shrykos, Morghul and Tyraxes.

Tyraxes, Shrykos, and Morghul killed scores, there can be little doubt, but Dreamfyre slew more than all three of them combined. (The Princess and the Queen)

Dreamfyre was the oldest and strongest of the four dragons slain in the storming of the pit. The other three dragons are described as young, too young for war.

Queen Helaena’s twins had their own dragons too, but no more than hatchlings; the usurper’s youngest son, Maelor, was possessed only of an egg. (The Princess and the Queen)

Shrykos and Morghul (as they are the dragons bound to the twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera Targaryen) were no more than hatchlings at the beginning of the Dance of Dragons. Tyraxes was a few years older than Morghul and Shrykos but still very young. Tyraxes was bound to Joffrey Velaryon (born 117 AC). Tyraxes hatched between 117 and 120 AC and this makes Tyraxes not much older than ten years old during the storming of the Dragonpit.

Vhagar was five times the size of her foe, the hardened survivor of a hundred battles. If there was a fight, it could not have lasted long. (The Princess and the Queen)

Her foe = Arrax. And according to the awoiaf wiki Tyraxes was slightly smaller than Vermax or Arrax. So we can conclude that Tyraxes was at least 5 times smaller than Vhagar .

No living dragon could match Vhagar for size or ferocity (The Princess and the Queen)

Vhagar was the largest dragon alive during the Dance of the Dragons but in the past there were even larger than Vhagar.

When the Targaryen’s settled on the island Dragonstone they had five dragons but at the beginning of Aegons Conquest only one, Balerion the Blackdread, the original five was still alive. Although two more dragons (Vhagar and Meraxes) hatched, Balerion became the last living dragon that was born in Valyria. But none of the Targaryen dragons born in Westeros could match Balerion in size not even the great Vhagar. But during the days the Valyrian Freehold there were dragons of other Dragonlords that could match or even outmatch Balerion in Size. Because we know that the Targaryen were far from the most powerful dragonlords.

The Targaryens were far from the most powerful of the dragonlords, and their rivals saw their flight to Dragonstone as an act of surrender, as cowardice. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest)

I think that the power of a dragonlord is based on two things: his wealth and his dragons. So the most powerful dragonlords had the largest and strongest dragons. And by knowing the fact that the Targaryens were a minor house among the Dragonlords, it is realistic to assume that there were several dragons who surpassed Balerion in Greatness. This means that there is a high possibility that the dragonlords in Tyrosh and Lys had dragons as large or even larger than Balerion. And I doubt that a dragon like Balerion would let himself killed by citizens.

And the greatest of them, Balerion, the Black Dread, could have swallowed an aurochs whole, or even one of the hairy mammoths said to roam the cold wastes beyond the Port of Ibben. (A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II)

and Balerion . . . his fire was as black as his scales, his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow when he passed overhead." (A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I)

On wings as black as pitch, Balerion plunged through the night, and when the great towers of Harrenhal appeared beneath him, the dragon roared his fury and bathed them in black fire, shot through with swirls of red. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest)

Nor were Harren's ironmen made of stone. Smoking, screaming, shrouded in flames, they ran across the yards and tumbled from the wallwalks to die upon the ground below. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest)

from there flew Balerion to Lys in time to set ablaze a Volantene fleet that was preparing to invade that Free City. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria)

Balerion was capable of destroying armies, fleets and castles and even the ironmen soldiers where too afraid to fight. I don’t see how the citizens of Tyrosh and Lys could succeed where armies failed.

Besides that it is almost impossible to kill a dragon as large or even larger as Balerion there is more:

Kingslanding is as far as I know the only city with a Dragonpit. This means that the dragons in Lys and Tyrosh were not locked up and chained like the dragons who were killed during the storming of the Dragonpit.

It also doesn’t seem to fit that the cities of Tyrosh and Lys turned against the dragonlords and their dragons.

The Lyseni are also great breeders of slaves, mating beauty with beauty in hopes of producing ever more refined and lovely courtesans and bedslaves. The blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the smallfolk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old. The Lysene nobility values purity of blood above all and have produced many famous (and infamous) beauties. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: The Quarrelsome Daughters: Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh)

If the lyseni value pure blood so much, than why did they let the most pure blooded people of all, the Dragonlords, be murderd by their citizens?

Still, when Pentos and Tyrosh approached him, inviting him to join a grand alliance against Volantis, he listened. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria)

(Him= Aegon the Conquer) So Tyrosh first kills the Dragonlord(s) that survived the Doom but when they are in trouble they ask the Targaryen’s (the last living Dragonlords) for help. Doesn’t seem right to me.

Such was never true of Volantis and the rest of the Nine. Though born of Valyria, each was independent of its mother from birth. All but Braavos were dutiful daughters, neither making war upon Valyria nor defying the dragon lords in any matter of significance; they remained willing allies and trading partners of their mother and looked to the Lands of the Long Summer for leadership in times of crisis. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities)

The free cities (except for Braavos) always stayed loyal to the Valyrian Freehold and there were never any problems or quarrels (known to us at least) that lead to any tensions between the free cities and the Valyrian Freehold. So why would the citizens of Tyrosh and Lys suddenly decide to kill the dragonlords whilst their relation was always on good terms?

But we know that there is a crazy assassins society that isn’t really fund of the Dragonlords and their dragons: the Faceless Men.

No discussion of Braavos would be complete without a mention of the Faceless Men. Shrouded in mystery and rumor, this secretive society of assassins is said to be older than Braavos itself, with roots that go back to Valyria at the height of its glory. Little is known for certain about these killers, however. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Braavos)

"Didn't the slaves rise up and fight?" "Some did," he said. "Revolts were common in the mines, but few accomplished much. The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril. The first Faceless Man was one who did." (A Feast for Crows - Arya II)

"Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder's son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered . . . until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness. (A Feast for Crows - Arya II)

the Kindly man insinuates in his conversation with Arya that the first faceless man originated in the mines of the Valyrian Freehold.

Some, wedding the fanciful notion of Valyrian magic to the reality of the ambitious great houses of Valyria, have argued that it was the constant whirl of conflict and deception amongst the great houses that might have led to the assassinations of too many of the reputed mages who renewed and maintained the rituals that banked the fires of the Fourteen Flames. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria)

The faceless men are assassins and according to the kindly man the first faceless man was a slave in the mines of the Valyrian freehold. Big chance that these assassinations are done by the first faceless man or men.

Here's your crumb: they are very old, their interests go further, they originated in Valyria before the fall, and their core organizing principle is religious. (interview with George R. R. Martin)

George R.R. Martin said in an interview that there is more behind the faceless men than just assassinating people.

The time of the dragons in Essos was at an end. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria)

high possibility that this is/was the main goal of the Faceless men. This gets confirmed when a faceless man is looking for something in the Citadel of Oldtown.

"As you wish." The alchemist pulled his hood down. He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man's face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears. It was not a face Pate recognized. (A Feast for Crows – Prologue)

This Alchemist looks like someone we have met before:

Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls. (A Clash of Kings - Arya IX)

Jaqen=Alchemist, we know that Jaqen is a Faceless men but what does he want from the citadel?

"The key?" the alchemist inquired politely. Something made Pate hesitate. "Is it some book you want?" Some of the old Valyrian scrolls down in the locked vaults were said to be the only surviving copies in the world. (A Feast for Crows – Prologue)

Old valyrian scrolls, big possibility that these contain certain information about dragons. And this reaffirms that the eradication of dragons is the main purpose of the faceless men.

TL;DR
The Dragonlords and dragons that survived the Doom of Valyria weren’t killed by the citizens of Tyrosh and Lys but the Faceless men killed them. Because the main goal of the Faceless men is to exterminate all dragons (and dragonlords).

The stew was fiery hot, Hotah knew, though he tasted none of it. Sherbet followed, to cool the tongue. For the sweet, each guest was served a skull of spun sugar. When the crust was broken, they found sweet custard inside and bits of plum and cherry.

How in seven hells is there sherbet in Dorne? Where do they get ice from being, ya know, a desert and correct me if I'm wrong but like 3000 miles from the North in a setting where travel takes a long time.

Are there any other small inconsistencies of this series like above that bother anyone? Nothing that has to do with plot overall but small instances like this?

Hello all...Over the past four months or so, I read all of ASOIAF and am currently reading the Mystery Night. The first three books I paid really close attention to the detail, but for AFFC and ADWD, I kinda drifted off topic while reading and missed a few key details. In preparation for TWOW, should I re-read the entire series or just ADWD or both ADWD and AFFC? I just want to know what your opinions are. Thanks

Ever since I read the books the first time I have wondered about the series would read if you compiled the books by character. It would obviously not work for some characters who had few POV chapters, and many would have pretty abrupt endings when they die, and the epi/Prologues wouldn't work, but reading the Tyrion, Danny and Jon chapters as stand alone options would be pretty interesting. Has anyone else thought about this? What would your thoughts on reading this type of compilation be, as a collection?

This won't be a long theory, but there's something bothering me about the Bran "assassination" plot. There is a small detail about the knife used to attempt to murder Bran in his sleep that I believe may be significant.

Historically, Starks have been buried in tombs with iron swords to keep their spirits locked away.

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts.

This may have been because the Starks were historically wargs. What would happen if a warg were to die without an iron longsword locking their soul away? Well, we have a control: Varamyr Sixskins. We learned the soul of a warg leaves the body of the warg and enters the heart tree...

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground... then he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind.

...before returning to the body of the warg's beast.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him.

If, as the Starks seem to believe, the presence of iron 'locks' the spirits in their crypts and prevents this process. Easy to do for a non-warg Stark, as there would be no animal to which the soul could migrate and live a second life. Locking the body in a tomb and placing an iron sword atop it would be sufficient to keep the soul in the body.

But for a warg, whose souls leave their bodies at the moment of death, the soul-binding iron would have to be introduced at the moment of death; in other words, the warg would have to be killed with an iron weapon.

But Bran isn't targeted with an iron weapon, he's targeted with Valyrian Steel... or is he?

This is the detail I haven't seen brought up - despite the blade being Valyrian Steel, the catspaw's dagger was iron nonetheless. From AGOT, chapters away from the assassination attempt:

Tyrion curled up in his fur with his back against the trunk, took a sip of the wine, and began to read about the properties of dragonbone. Dragonbone is black because of its high iron content, the book told him. It is strong as steel, yet lighter and far more flexible, and of course utterly impervious to fire.

So Littlefinger's knife is the ultimate weapon, on some level. It is both iron and Valyrian Steel, and has the properties of both. Had Bran been killed with this knife, it's possible his soul would never have migrated into Summer for a second life, despite their bond. So when Ser Rodrik says

“It seemed to me that it was altogether too fine a weapon for such a man, so I looked at it long and hard. The blade is Valyrian steel, the hilt dragonbone. A weapon like that has no business being in the hands of such as him. Someone gave it to him.”

it makes me wonder if the dagger didn't have a secondary purpose. Not only killing Bran, but killing him permanantly, locking his soul in his mortal body and preventing the Children and Bloodraven from acquiring the last (?) remaining greenseer.

This of course leaves a lot of loose ends and the dagger mystery is still controversial, so I'm not advancing any claims here. I just want to see what people have to say (thoughts or feedback/discussion) on the idea before I go further with it. Thanks!

TL;DR: Valyrian Steel with a Dragonbone hilt. Dragonbone is so high in iron it's black. Souls can be locked away with iron. Was someone trying to lock away Bran's soul?

The She-Wolves Of Winterfell

Lord Beron gathered swords to throw Lord Dagon Greyjoy's ironmen back into the sea and made common cause with the Lord of Casterly Rock for it. He was mortally wounded in the ensuing clash, and House Stark faced a crisis of succession as his wife and four other recent Stark widows made claim for their own children.

I was suggesting it would be nice to see the Starks in power, without the current disarray. But GRRM pointed out that things were not so good 90 years either, with a lot of Stark widows struggling for power, with the current lord dieing from a wound taken against some Ironborn. Although I could have the reason for his wound up. I'm reading the RPG game book at the moment and I might be mixing things together. There is a lot of Stark kids around though, so ending the line wasn't a problem. I think he said 10 children, from various Starks members.

He mentioned something about five Lady Starks running Winterfell -- the Wolf Women or something like that -- with four of them widows of a bunch of fairly recent former Lord Starks, and the current Lady Stark, whose 30-something husband is fading fast from a wound taken from fighting the Ironborn.

Additionally, in ADWD, Bran III, chronologically situated between a vision of Lyanna and Benjen Stark fighting as children and a vision of Duncan the tall kissing old Nan, Bran witnesses the following.

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her.

Now. Let's examine each of the potential Stark widows who may have been alive at the time of the conflict, to figure out which ones were likely the five she-wolves, and which one was the one Bran saw.

Lorra Royce

Lorra Royce was the wife of lord Beron. She had five sons by him – Donnor, William, Artos, Errold, and Rodrik – at least three of whom were still alive at the time of Beron's death – Donnor (who was lord of Winterfell at some point, and thus must have outlived his father), William (who was later killed by Raymun Redbeard in 226), and Artos (who avenged William). Not much is known about Errold, but Rodrik is known to have gone to Essos at some point and joined the Second Sons. This may or may not have happened after Beron's death.

Lorra is the only woman explicitly named by the two sources as being one of the five she-wolves, so I naturally list her first. But is she the pregnant woman Bran saw? I believe not. Lorra already had at least three living sons, maybe as many as five. She did not need to pray for another.

Arya Flint

Arya Flint was the wife of lord Beron's youngest son Rodrik. We don't know when Rodrik died. If he died before Beron did, then Arya would technically be a Stark widow at the time of the conflict. Therefore I will tentatively list her here. She had two daughters by Rodrik – lord Eddard Stark's mother Lyarra, and one Branda. No sons.

I do not believe Arya was one of the five she-wolves. Even if Rodrik Stark had died by the time of Beron's death, he would have died in Essos, and there's no way he would have had time to go out there, earn fame, and die, and for word of his death to get all the way back to Winterfell, all within a nine month span. Furthermore, why would Arya want a son to "avenge" anyone? Rodrik probably died fighting pirates or something. Neither of their daughters would likely have been killed by any of the other she-wolves, since their claim to Winterfell would have been extremely weak. And Arya herself was probably pretty young at the time, and would not have had the experience or influence to fight for her own power. (Hell, she might not even have been born yet at the time of the conflict of the she-wolves. We don't know.) She's just not a real contender.

So she's pretty much right off the table, in my mind.

EDIT – actually, since Lyarra can't have been born earlier than about 227 (40 years before her youngest son Benjen was born), then we can probably reasonably conclude that Rodrik Stark couldn't have left for Essos any earlier than that. So Arya was definitely not one of the Stark widows in 211, at the time of the she-wolves.

Alys Karstark

Alys Karstark was lord Beron's mother. She had no sons other than Beron and his older brother Rodwell, but she did have one daughter – Arsa. Not much is known about her.

If Alys was one of the she-wolves – as I believe she was – then it wouldn't have been for the sake of any other sons or claimants (though she might have used Arsa as a puppet claimant). It would have likely simply been for the sake of her own power. As the wife of a long ruling lord, she could very well have accrued a great deal of influence during his rule.

However, she-wolf though she might be, she could not have been the woman Bran saw in his vision. As the mother of Beron Stark – whom the second source says was in his thirties – she would surely have been far, far too old to be of childbearing age.

Myriame Manderly

Myriame Manderly was the wife of Beron's older brother Rodwell. They had no issue. It is unknown how long Rodwell had been dead by the time Beron died. However, it is (remotely) possible that it may have been less than nine months. She therefore may very well have been one of the she-wolves.

If Myriame was pregnant with Rodwell's child, then she would have had to flee Winterfell in order to keep that a secret, after Beron became lord. Therefore Bran likely could not have seen her praying in front of Winterfell's heart tree. However, I won't say it's impossible: after all, perhaps the Manderlys could have simply taken Winterfell during the course of the war, shortly before Myriame's child was to be born. But, if they had already taken Winterfell, then that means they were likely, at least temporarily, victorious in the conflict… in which case why should Myriame feel the need to pray for a son to "avenge" her? I'm going to say she's out.

EDIT – also, as a Manderly, Myriame would likely have worshiped the Seven, not the old gods of Winterfell's heart tree.

Serena Stark

Serena Stark was the wife of Beron's elder uncle Edric (his only uncle who was never lord). She had twin sons by him, Cregard and Torrhen, but they must have been dead by the time Edric's elder brother Jonnel died, since Jonnel was succeeded by Edric's younger brother Barthogan. Serena at some point married Jon Umber, but it is unknown whether this was before or after she was married to Edric. She had no children by him. Her daughters by Edric – Aranna and Aregelle – married an Umber and a Cerwyn, respectively.

Serena Stark is also the rightful ruling lady of Winterfell.

She is the heir of her father Rickon Stark, eldest son of lord Cregan of the hour-of-the-wolf. After Rickon died in 157 fighting alongside the Targaryens during the conquest of Dorne, the lordship of Winterfell passed to Rickon's half-brother Jonnel, instead of to her.

If Serena believed that she was cheated out of her birthright, and if she believed that her sons Cregard and Torrhen were killed by one of the other she-wolves (most likely Alys Karstark), then I could easily see her fighting to take back Winterfell for herself. Also, since she was married to an Umber, and since her eldest daughter and heir was likewise married to an Umber, we can probably safely say that she would have had the backing of that house in the ensuing struggle.

Now, Serena may certainly have been one of the five she-wolves, but she can't be the woman Bran saw in his vision. This is because her father died more than fifty years before the war took place. She simply could not be young enough to bear a child. The woman in Bran's vision could be one of her daughters, wishing for a son to avenge her dead brothers… but I see this as unlikely. As in the case with Myriame, Serena would have had to actually capture Winterfell, in order for Bran to see her or her daughters praying before the heart tree. And if she had already taken Winterfell, then, again as with Myriame, she shouldn't need a son to "avenge" her. So I don't think any of them were the woman Bran saw.

Sansa Stark

Sansa Stark was the wife of lord Beron's eldest uncle Jonnel, and Serena's younger sister. She had no issue. I'm inclined to doubt she had much influence. I don't see her being one of the five she-wolves, or the woman from the vision.

Lynara Stark

EDIT – it is remotely possible that lord Beron's grandmother Lynara might still have been alive in 211, as pointed out to me by /u/blackofhairandheart2. I should probably list her, therefore, although I doubt she was one of the contenders in the war.

Wylla Fenn

I list Wylla Fenn last, because unlike the others she was not technically a widow. Rather, she was the mistress of Beron's father Brandon, and the mother of his bastard son Lonnel Snow.

I believe Wylla Fenn was the woman Bran saw.

Wylla, as lord Brandon's mistress, could potentially have been much younger than Brandon's wife Alys. If she was only just barely of childbearing age at the time Lonnel Snow was born and Brandon died, then she could very well still be on the upper end of childbearing age by the time of lord Beron's death. Furthermore, her son Lonnel, as a bastard son of lord Beron's father, could very well have made a claim for Winterfell, or been a strong ally to one of the other claimants. He might have been influential in the castle prior to Beron's death – as a castellan, perhaps. He may also have had lots of friends and followers. It's highly likely that, as soon as the power struggle began, one of the other she-wolves would have had him murdered. If this were the case, then it would make sense that Wylla would pray to have another son who could one day get revenge on whoever killed his half-brother.

Furthermore, unlike Myriame Manderly or Serena Stark, who would have had to take Winterfell by military force in order to have access to its heart tree, Wylla was probably relatively powerless and without major allies, after her son's death. Alys and Lorra would thus likely not have regarded her as a threat. She may have even been being kept under something vaguely akin to house arrest at Winterfell, at the time Bran saw her. To me, everything seems to fit together in favor of it being her.

TLDR

So, to sum everything up, I believe the five she-wolves are as follows.

Serena Stark, Beron's half-cousin and rightful ruler of Winterfell, who is allied with the Umbers.

Wylla Fenn, Beron's father's mistress and mother of Lonnel Snow, who may have been an early contender in the war. Wylla, I believe, is the woman Bran saw in his vision, praying for another son to avenge her.

So what do you guys think? Do you think I've correctly identified the five she-wolves of Winterfell? Do you think I've correctly identified the woman Bran saw in his vision? Let me know.

So I've read AFFC a couple times, and just finished the audio version (long live Roy Dotrice). I need some help understanding why? Why did the show just ignore the made for TV moment that was the Kingsmoot? Everything from the bones of Naggas Hill, to all the different ships and their crews, to the horn being blown? A friend of mine and myself had been looking forward to this for years....instead we got a scene that looked like a high school theatre production, and lines like "let's go murder my niece and nephew".

Just wondering if I'm alone in this. If Euron is really suppose to be the new "Ramsy/Geoffry villian" then why start him out looking like such a non threat?

For example: Tywin Lannister became my favorite character when I heard about the Tarbecks and the Reynes of Castamere. I just thought utter genocide is one of the most godly-like and horrendous things ANYBODY has ever done in the ASOIAF universe. Now whenever I read a scene with the Lord of Lannister in it, my eyes instantly dilate and my ears perk.

i remember when the show was first starting my teacher at the time in my final year of highschool was an avid fan and had an idea that varys, tyrion and little finger were the real main characters, each moving there way up and playing the game of thrones behind the scenes through manipulation. At the time i loved that idea and it seemed for at least a bit that he might have been correct but as the show went on we saw less and less of little finger and his maneuvers. varys's intentions did not progress and tyrion plodded along with his own emotional cross to bear. now little finger has landed himself in the north likely trying to turn sansa against jon, varys is making moves in dorne and tyrion is aligned with danny and the dragons.

my question or rather discussion is now that we are near the end have we seen the end of the politcal movement and its time for battle? or will these three characters all of a sudden come to the forefront in the game of thrones.