>>77610593It's cultural studies stuff. Morrison's hoping that by changing fiction, you cam eventually change people's perceptions and actions. That's why fiction is given metaphysical primacy: it's where culture is at its most concentrated.

There's a guy who often posts about the idea of fiction functioning like an organism passing on genes. I'm familiar with the idea, but is there an academic essay somewhere discussing it in regards to Morrison?

>>77614054As the other guy said, it's pretty difficult to come up with something > thought robot. It's literally the concept of victory. The great infinite adapter. It can instantly change itself to confront any opponent, on both physical 'I'm gonna punch it really fucking hard" and metaphysical 'I'm gonna defeat the ultimate enemy at the end of comics' levels.

>>77615525>Could you give us a cliff notes version?not that anon, but ill give it a go. Probably gonna forget a lot

> DC is an organism because it first came from superman.

>marvel is a machine because it started with the human torch (robot one)

> DC has the 'bleed'. The ultramenstrum fluid that runs between universes and provides the key to existence. Ultramenstrum as in menstruation - women's natural monthly bleeding. This hints to the fact that during the DC/Marvel event, the DC verse was a woman. Pic related.

> Marvel is a machine for a bunch of reasons. Mainly little references like "The Machine is broken". I'm more of a DC fag, so hopefully someone else could talk about the marvel side.

Thought robot would beat Demonbane, then afterwards collapse and shut down. Even though thought robot is no more, he still accomplishes the goal of stopping Demonbane, who still accomplishes his goal in reverse.

>>77614538That second post is unaware that the Bleed was brought into Marvel as the superflow by Warren Ellis himself, who also made the Bleed.

Everything Hickman has done has been a continuation of Ellis' attempt to build a metaphysical structure for the Marvel U similar to what he created for Wildstorm (which was adopted by Morrison for DC by extension).

The entire idea of "MU = machine, DCU = organism" is an Ellis idea, and honestly isn't backed up by anything except the works of Ellis and Hickman. Which is because no one else is really interested in the metaphysics of the Marvel U, to be fair.

I screen capped that stuff too, but it's nice to see I won't have to edit most of it. There was also some cool stuff about the Seven Soldiers from that thread that went along with that image. If this thread is still up when I'm not busy I'll put it up.

Before Dawkins became famous for being a fedora tipping militant atheist, he was one of the guys who popularized the idea of "memes" as information passed along to other generations or individuals, specifically as it relates to biology. There are plenty of sociological treatises and explanations of how cultural norms and ideas spread between populations

>>77623682It's 20 moves. All moves only require 20 moves; you don't need any more than that. God's Number— the number of moves that someone as super-efficient as God would require— is 20.

Now the question is whether or not there is a universal "God's Algorithm" that can be determined to figure out how to solve any cube from any position in its most efficient number of moves.

If I had the chance, I'd pseudo-retcon Morrison's Rubik's Cube talk to involve the Superflip, a Cube position where the edge pieces are flipped while the corners and centers remain the same. It has been found that the Superflip is one position of the Rubik's Cube that requires 20 moves.

>>77615033Wasn't the thought robot constructed around the multiverse by the first monitor?

Does that mean that Superman is:

1. Bigger than the multiverse

and

2. IS the DC Multiverse. As the grand archetypal superhero he is the living, breathing body of DC that Morrison writes about. The DCU come "out of" the body of Superman. The Bleed is his blood. The Speed-Force his neurons. The Lantern Energy his chakras.

The Gentry was a bad staph infection. Ultraa is his shadow.

I know it shut down after beating Mandrakk, but I'd love to see it come back online. It's not as if being reborn and powered back up is something Superman doesn't do all the time.

I haven't seen that point before, but it is a really good one. The natural defenses of the multiverse (superman's essence and soul) are used to power and control the ultimate weapon.

> I know it shut down after beating Mandrakk, but I'd love to see it come back online. It's not as if being reborn and powered back up is something Superman doesn't do all the time.

It's the ultimate weapon, driven by the ultimate hero and it would have to come back to fight a similarly powerful enemy. Mandrakk if he comes back in some form. I suppose (in universe) that if the multiversity hadn't established it's army of superheroes ready to counter the Gentry, Thought Robot would have been repaired.

DC really does have a baller immune system compared to Marvel. It's got a layered system. The layers don't always interact with one another but they come together to beat back all symptoms.

You got the Orrery. You got the Seven Soldiers. You got Animal Man/Doom Patrol/Book of Magic/Endless and all the metaphysical Vertigo stuff. You got a League somewhere on every world.

Marvel's immune system kind of sucked in comparison. They had the Living Tribunal and Captain Britain Corps and Exiles. All were ordered organizations. All were useless against the Gentry/Beyonders.

More fuel to the "organism vs machine" fire.

Another thing. Note how Marvel fixed its infection. After Battleworld the universe seems to be just like it was only with Miles and Evil Reed.

It rebooted. Not in the sense of starting a narrative over, but in the sense of flicking the on/off switch of a computer.

DC got over its infection by growing so hard the good guys were about to break through into our world Flex Mentallo style.

Again, Machine vs Organism.

>>77634166The Gentry as cancer makes a lot of sense. But I tend to picture it as something else. When your superhero universe starts to eek toward the dark side they move in because the environment is suitable for their growth.

I so badly want someone to draw DC and Marvel awkwardly waking up in bed together.

Also, here's a cool observation. Some characters appear to be emblematic of their universes/multiverses. Like Superman and the thought robot.

If the Beyonders/Gentry are herpes/cancer than consider that a certain character emblematic of Marvel got killed by cancer long before Time Runs Out. A character that Grant wrote in Supergods as being the leader of the Roy Thomas era Marvel.

His name? Captain Marvel

Marvel has been a carrier for a longgggg time.

>>77634778They had a nasty break up. Marvel-kun thought it was great that sempai finally noticed him, but Dc-chan was pissed off at the herpes and Marvel seeing some slut named Disney now.

Marvel-kun is hoping that by dating Disney and LucasArts he can get sempai to be jealous and come back to him, but it just makes DC-chan feel inadequate.

>Kal-El is a orphan from a doomed civilization>Mar-Vell was a soldier from a civilization heading to its doom

>Kal-El became a champion of Earth in memory of his dead people>Mar-Vell became a champion of Earth in defiance of his living people

>Kal-El outlived Krypton, Mar-Vell was outlived by Hala

You could go so many directions with this. The Kree Empire is what would have happened to Krypton had it not become isolationist and died. Mar-vell, by extension, is what Kal would have been like, growing up on War-Krypton.

They're both aliens who struggle fighting to protect a world that's not their own, but for Mar-Vell there's an added layer - he chose Earth by rejecting Hala. It was a clear line, a choice that Clark never really had to make (bar a few short-term stories here and there).

If we've established Hala and Krypton as being mirror-opposites - two static civilizations, obsessed with genetics, but one became expansionist and warlike, the other isolationist and peaceful - this means two things:

1) Hala is a representation of Marvel inherently being "darker"/less idealistic than DC - Marvel Krypton went rogue at some point

2) Mar-Vell is a natural extension of that: a Superman who died. Because (and you can put in the more advanced Speedforce/Bleed/Source Wall Hypercrisis stuff here as a detailed explanation) the Marvel Universe doesn't have the narrative structure of the DC Universe, with IDEAS and concepts and good ultimately triumphing over evil, but is focused on PEOPLE and being more realistic, the Marvel Superman never grows to rival the DC Superman in influence and popularity, in-universe and out-. Marvel's Superman dies and stays dead.

In closing, isn't it interesting how pretty much the ONLY major hero in Marvel's history that hasn't been revived at this point is Captain Marvel? You can't bring back that which this reality never truly possessed - you can't give them the hope of a Superman.

Both Multiverses suffered reality-threatening crises that ultimately purged the old system and replaced it with a singular, "New" Earth.

In DC, CoIE was resolved by the Flash sacrificing himself to stop the Anti-monitor.

In Time Runs Out/Secret Wars, the threat is ended when Doom usurps ultimate power and remakes the world into his own image.

Obviously, we don't know how SW will pan out, but that's irrelevant - In DC, the Flash saved the universe through sacrifice (Christ parallel?), while the Beyonders, the imminent threat to Marvel, were defeated by a man called Doom achieving apotheosis.

>>77638757No, I am not saying about can TRS defeat or something.I want to hear about whereIs Hypertime there in DC cosmology.I don't know about which place Hypertime shoud be there in DC cosmology.Flash have visited another multiverse through Speed Force.So I think Hypertime is surrounded by Speed Force wall.But I don't know wheter Hypertime is within Bleed Space or not.

But hypertime isn't a thing in the same way the bleedspace or the speed force wall is.

It's just passage of time that evolves multiverses into others. Kind of a flow of time that exists above the standard time of space-time, because regular time can be altered in it's specific universes, while traveling through Hypertime will take you to alternate multiverses, regardless of say, for example, what Hal Jordan as Parallax did to fuck up the universe.

Perhaps hypertime is the true time that beings like the endless experience, as they are unaffected by alterations to the regular timeline/retcons.

> But I don't know wheter Hypertime is within Bleed Space or not.

I assume that because time still flows and effects things in the bleed, that hypertime is both inside and outside the bleedspace.

Morrison and Mark waid created concept of Hypertime.It is about infinite number of higher time line. For example, There is pararell time line in Hypertime that Crisis on infinite earths never happened.Wallen Ellis created concept of Bleed.Now Bleed is one of important concept in DC cosmology.So Which is higher concept between Bleed and Hypertime in DC entire creation?

>>77638902>So Which is higher concept between Bleed and Hypertime in DC entire creation?

I don't think one is higher than the other. The bleed is just the goop that everything exists in, while hypertime is the time that everything moves through. The two exist regardless to changes made to the multiverses (space-hypertime) by whatever.

>>77638907But when we're talking about god (at least the Abrahamic version), you have to understand he isn't Superman. He doesn't wear a cape and fly around and shoot lasers.

The premise of the question is faulty because it personifies God, which is silly to begin with. He is the uncreated creator, the primum movens, alpha and omega. He is beyond the timespace understanding of reality. You're asking a fundamentally wrong question, based on the wrong premises. But sure, it can be done.

First God would have to create a vessel, a physical form to embody, in order to 'lift' anything. Any vessel could only encompass a fraction of divinity, so it's restrained by definition, and God could create a rock large enough that he -through the vessel- couldn't lift it.

But even disregarding that, my previous explanation is valid. Say you're a /fit/person, and you lift 250lbs easily. It's reasonable to assume you can lift 50lbs. Say you then ask your friend to tie you up so thoroughly that you are left immobile. Tell me, how much could you lift at that time?

Both 0 and 250.

You could only lift 0 (not at all) because you have restrained yourself artificially, but that doesn't change the fact that beyond these self-imposed restraints, you could still lift 250.

God could create a rock of any size, choose to limit his usable strength measured in whatever metric for the duration of the test, and fail to lift the rock. It doesn't make him any less omnipotent.

Local multiverse has now infinite number of universe by defeating Anti monitor and changing history of Crisis on Infinite Earths.But Antimonitor still live and he implied in JL that He as Destroyer of multiverse has destroyed unlimited number of multiverse. What is it's implication?

Some tupes of cancer actually are transmissible, from one organism to another. Then you have some types of viruses (like HPV) that can mutate cells they infect and turn them into cancerous cells that start proliferating.

>>77639073Note I didn't specify incarnation. I don't think God would go through the trouble of recreating the Jesus experience just so he could lift a rock. He didn't come into the world in this manner to talk to Moses or Abraham, signifying that it's only something he'd do for the most important tasks (spreading the truth to humanity/sacrificing himself for humanity's salvation, etc.).

I was saying that if they're imagining God physically, with hands, lifting a rock, that's a ridiculous notion, and he'd have to make special arrangements to make that happen.

And besides, even the Incarnation works for my purpose - Jesus was crucified and died. That does not make God mortal, it makes the form he took mortal. AKA my exact argument.

Yeah, the entire point of Jesus as both god and man was that he HUMBLED himself in taking on a human form, which fits in your explanation of God purposely limiting his power so he could not lift that rock.

>>77641375Possibly, yeah. Reminds me of the crossover when Scarlett Witch tried to use her magic power in the DC verse and it corrupted her. She said it was more powerful and chaotic than what we could interpret as a filtered down version that Marvel gets.

Magic in the Marvel universe from what I understand involves using power and energy from other entities and dimensions. It's not explainable by our own understanding of science, but can often be understood in empirical ways and controlled by ritualistic and legal bindings.

Magic in the DCU is alive and it is a bitch who will fuck you up if you slip.

Isn't the whole point of Darkseid War though that the Justice League can't handle their roles and are getting fucked up by being forced to take on these powers? Wouldn't that be an argument for Batman NOT being a good fit for Metron?

Or maybe it's more like even if the Justice League superheroes are meant to be the new pantheon, they can't simply adopt the domains of the old ones and have to do it on their own terms. (As Hal shows in his Darkseid War tie-in issue).

>>77643103I mean, is it better than your standard summer event, like say, Secret Wars/Invasion, Fear Itself, Blackest Night (which I still hold is a fine enough story if you view it as a b-movie zombie flick with superheroes...until the end when it all falls apart)?

Darkseid War is being terrible for the New Gods and specially terrible for Anti-Monitor. Now Anti-Monitor is not the half of Monitor, but a New God called Mobius that got changed by the Anti-Life Equation.

Truly terrible. Geoff Johns seems more like a Marvel writer. He turns everything mundane and literal. He's the anti-Grant Morrison.

So when is DC actually going to touch on all of these multiple universes? The closest we get is Earth 2, and we've seen how that goes.

For example, maybe we could get a Justice Incarnate series, where Calvin Ellis and the other multiversal heroes go around different Earths, helping others in any way they can. Or even a Tales of the Multiverse monthly, where various writers can tell whatever standalone tales they want in whatever Earth they like the best.

>>77646381>Truly terrible. Geoff Johns seems more like a Marvel writer. He turns everything mundane and literal. He's the anti-Grant Morrison.

Actually his work ties into Morrison's more closely than you acknowledge. Morrison's narratives always operate on different parallel levels, with similar themes and events being echoes both on smaller scales with individual characters, and larger, cosmic metaphors. As above, so below.

Johns uses similar concepts to Morrison and has the same tendency to dig up and dust off old characters and ideas to reintegrate them into the current context of the DCU, but focuses on that that smaller scale, literal level, whereas Morrison is the big idea guy.

The Anti-Monitor is a part of the original Monitor probe that investigated the flaw that became the story that is the DCU, and was changed by that interaction, first splitting to reflect the basic foundation of any story, that of conflict (hero vs. villain, monitor vs. anti-monitor). The Anti-Monitor is still a part of the story though and as that story is ongoing, it makes that his position within it will change.

In one Universe, somebody already figured out how to destroy the Multiverse and already accomplished it. Every single Earth has been absolutely destroyed leaving nothing within the Multiverse. Yet in another completely different yet otherwise perfect duplicate universe, that same multiverse doomsday machine could have broke leaving every other universe completely in tact

Every single combination of do and do not coexist in peace with each other, every 1 existing for every 0 and vice versa. No matter what you do when it comes to cross-dimensional shenanigans don't matter because in another space of reality, those 2 universes never meet

The New 52's restriction to only so many universes is a good example of this. Even better when you consider that stuff like Batman '66 and Sensational Wonder Woman exist despite having no connection to the mainline continuity. It's just a bottled-off section of possibility that, in this universe, has chosen to keep itself separated from the rest of everything. Essentially, everything is and isn't possible at the same time due to the immeasurable amount of alternate Earths that do and do not exist at any single given moment

>>77646632>The Anti-Monitor is a part of the original Monitor probe that investigated the flaw that became the story that is the DCU, and was changed by that interaction, first splitting to reflect the basic foundation of any story, that of conflict (hero vs. villain, monitor vs. anti-monitor). The Anti-Monitor is still a part of the story though and as that story is ongoing, it makes that his position within it will change.

Not according to Geoff Johns. The Anti-Monitor now has nothing to do with the Monitors. He's a New God. What changed the Anti-Monitor was the Anti-Life Equation. Geoff Johns is ignoring everything in favor or "redeeming" the Anti-Monitor, as if he needed that.

Geoff Johns is always going in another direction. Just because he likes to dig up and prop up old characters that doesn't make him equal to Morrison, especially when he twists these characters to fit his ideas. He don't work with what he has. He alter the characters. Take what he did to Superboy, for example. He ignored what was there and changed the character and canon to fit his head-canon.

>>77646750>In one Universe, somebody already figured out how to destroy the Multiverse and already accomplished it. Every single Earth has been absolutely destroyed leaving nothing within the Multiverse. Yet in another completely different yet otherwise perfect duplicate universe, that same multiverse doomsday machine could have broke leaving every other universe completely in tact>A universe where Superman's miracle machine failed.>A universe where the Thought Robot failed

That's my point though, being a part of the germ worlds now, he's vulnerable to retcons from another writer, just like any other character.

Now we can argue about whether it was a GOOD change or not (I don't much like it either, Johns writes REALLY fucking good sympathetic villains, but I like AM better as a force of nature, not a tragic figure), but you can't argue that he's somehow exempt from those changes. Nothing in the DCU is.

The problem is that you're trying to excuse Geoff Johns changes by using the Orrery set-up, but in this case Johns tried to do a Morrison by referencing all the reboots in an attempt to show that the Anti-Monitor has always been a New God. He's trying to say that the Anti-Monitor has always been a New God despite the constant changes inside the Orrery. He's trying to ape Morrison, be grandiose, while ignoring the rules.

I'd understand if the NEW version of Anti-Monitor post-Flashpoint was different, but that's not the case.

>>77646592Yeah, but the first one in that series is just a story about a Flash that can't stop going fast. I want more insight into universes we've just gleamed over before.

>>77646655The main reason that failed was because DC wanted to do a Earth 2 Batman ongoing with Tim Taylor, which enraged Robinson so much that he left.

So all DC has to do is NOT focus on Batman in their alternate universes. Unless the writer wants to do that himself, but we saw how Didio cancelled Elseworlds after all of them became "what if Superman was X or Batman was Y?"

>>77646950>He's trying to say that the Anti-Monitor has always been a New God despite the constant changes inside the Orrery

Uh yeah because he's keeping the perspective within the source wall of this universe. Us viewing it from the outside KNOW that's a retcon and that the universe used to be different.

>>77646954>The main reason that failed was because DC wanted to do a Earth 2 Batman ongoing with Tim Taylor, which enraged Robinson so much that he left.

That was sad, but what destroyed Earth 2 beyond repair was the fact that the next creative teams treated it as a tower of blocks they could knock over for fun and no one would care because it's not the "real" universe.

Robinson cared. But other than Johns, name me one other writer that DC employs that would care about the characters and their golden age legacies.

>Uh yeah because he's keeping the perspective within the source wall of this universe. Us viewing it from the outside KNOW that's a retcon and that the universe used to be different.

You didn't understand me. The Anti-Monitor wasn't a New God. He wasn't a New God before Crisis on Infinite Earths, before Zero Hour, before Infinite Crisis and so on. But Geoff Johns want us to believe that he was. He's creating a mess. He's not following on anything set up by previous writers. He's not respecting what has been established. He's not follwing what was set up by The Multiversity. He's just retconning willy-nilly.

>>77647380My theory is that while everybody likes Wonder Woman as a symbol, nobody actually knows how to write her.

Azarello got by okay because he focused on the Clash of the Titans elements (unique Greek gods, etc). Unfortunately, most other authors can't really think of how to write Wonder Woman well, because when you think about it she was written by a guy with a bondage fetish. So it's like you're trying to write what used to be fap bait into something empowering.

>Justice Incarnate series where Calvin Ellis and friends bop around the multiverse helping people

Oh god, I want this so bad.

The evil organization THE MAN of that sixties Earth headed by evil CEO Lex Luthor wants to invade other universes and secure crooked contracts to their resources so they can bypass Prez's new legislation.

The pirate universe is still around. A cadre of 1920's flavored bad guys start to form a legion of doom to oppose Justice Incarnate. Doom Incarnate? They have no long term plan besides loot and plunder for shits and giggles.

Bad guys on a world where all the heroes are dead/defeated suddenly find themselves mocked and frustrated by an unkillable blue 5D imp who slowly convinces them to turn into good guys. Its revealed in the end that this is an evolved form of Captain Atom, who was inspired by a trip to Zoo Crew Earth where he saw them defeat a threat peacefully through the power of comedy.

War breaks out between two cynical universes. Justice Incarnate sends in Thunderworld or another optimistic universe to act as peace negotiators.

Ultraa is finally saved through using Earth-Q as a sympathetic magick totem. It actually turns into a good version of Ne Bu La and heals Ultraa. Empty Hand gets BTFO.

The new digital ongoing is treating Wonder Woman and the amazons pretty well and have a set up that i found extremely inteligent. I don't know no writer have thought of it before.

The Greek Gods created the Paradise Island as a refuge to escape from Darkseid. That's why they didn't show up anymore before the appearance of Wonder Woman. The island is a refuge for them and all the wondrous creatures of the Greek Myths.

That's really neat and i'm actually kinda mad about no writer thinking of that way out before.

Yellow Lantern Batman. A psychiatrist for Arkham Asylum. Creepiest of the Batmen

Aqua Batman. A good version of Black Manta. Exhiled Atlantean prince. His company Waynetech makes his suit and gizmos. Think of him as a good guy pirate. He polices the entire world through his secret underwater Manta Cave.

Martian Batman. Using the identity Matches Malone. Has an obsession with fire because he fears it above all things and thus seeks to make it his strength. The most anti-social of the Batmen. Trusts completely in his young friend Tim Drake, who discovered his identity through detective skills.

>>77647606>Bad guys on a world where all the heroes are dead/defeated suddenly find themselves mocked and frustrated by an unkillable blue 5D imp who slowly convinces them to turn into good guys. Its revealed in the end that this is an evolved form of Captain Atom, who was inspired by a trip to Zoo Crew Earth where he saw them defeat a threat peacefully through the power of comedy.I really want this, especially if the world is a expy of the one from wanted. cause that one universe that needs a pie to the face.

>>77610573>Why does Morrison like to associate comic with "Real" world?

i have this theory that morrison believes he can enter the world of comics like they "used" to in the golden and bronze age "dc heroes on earth prime adventures stuff" and the "dc staffers end up in dc comics world and have godlike power"and unlike the lonely kid who kept opening wardrobes trying to go to narnia or roaming the woods looking for some other magical realm, eventually the kid grew up and realized that he was never going to be able to open a wardrobe into narnia or just walk into and find himself in a magical land ... morrison refuses to aknowledge this. so he practices "magic" creates or collects icons and totems of magic trying to help him achieve the goal of leaving "the shadow world of reailty" and entering the "real world aka comics" and his acknowledged drug use is not for his creativity but to help him cope with his "Failure to escape this reality" and to help him silence that voice inside himself that says he can never leave this world.

>>77647247Thought robot and Miracle.machine is above that possibility,aren't they?As long as Mandrakk or Empty hand is metafictional enemy from outside of comics, Losing to them means anihilation of entire DC cosmos.

>>77655334You and me both. I'm dying to know if Morrison is really going to run BAD END, BAD END FOREVER.

So far it seems like what if the Outer Church killed all the Invisible Cells and nothing was left to defend the world.

Also, was I the only one that caught the reference to Universe-B? Nameless is connected to The Invisibles, which is connected to DC, which gives fuel to the idea that the monsters in Nameless are another form of The Gentry.

People are asking what would it have looked like if the heroes lost Final Crisis or Multiversity, and I think we're going to see in Nameless.

>>77656784>Also, was I the only one that caught the reference to Universe-B?

I think it's meant to imply that the Nameless we're currently following is from that Universe, a reality where his fellow astronauts were instead occult experts killed in the Razor House seance.

As to a story where the Outer Church won, I think that was best exemplified with The Filth; a cadre of outlandish and highly unpleasant agents of order with Invisible Cells actually being the bonarife bad guys in that context.

>>77649681Nah, Morrison uses comics as a medium to practise his ideas for making THIS world a better place. What he's doing with comics now is what spiritual book writers have done for ages. The stories of Jesus, Moses, etc. The 'ancient Supermen'.

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