Forms are taught in Shaolin, and a lot of them, since there are more than 900 available. Grandmaster Sin The' takes a trip to China every year, and his only expense has been the ticket back and forth. As a group, he takes any students who wish to go, and they must only buy thier tickets and take spending money if they want. The monks provide all else. It seems tome that if the Grandmaster had no relationship other rthan money with the monks, he would not be getting such ospitality for free, nor would the system itself charge 1/3 what others do, for far more training. I have sat in on some karate classes, as well as some thai boxing and TKD classes, and have seen what I needed to to realize that Shaolin is not fake or a scam.

Rolling 100lb metal bars up and down your shins and forarms to condense the bone isn't a sham.

Punching buckets of marbles until the bones soften, so that they may condense isn't a sham.

I don't know what the deal with bashing shaolin is on every form on the net, but as far as I can tell, people are after immediate results. Shaolin has a bad rep in sparring because if you go out as a colored belt in shaolin and spar, you will get raped, more or less. Shaolin is slow. Monks spend thier whole lives dedicated to the art, what makes you so impatient that you must be master by blue belt, or its a fake?

Personally, if you want to be billy bad ass at a tournament, take some other style. If you are dedicated and want to practice a difficult art, that reaps devistating benifits to those who are dedicated enough, then take Shaolin. Shaolin-Do masters do not enter tournaments. Not under Sin The' if they are in good standing. The reason for this is both to preserve the art, and keep it off of videotape, and to keep naysayers talking. What warrior wants his opponent to know everything he can do? Do a set of pushups on two fingertips to 100, and repeat for two days a week for a year. If you can't punch your finger through someone's temple, then you can bitch.

Quote:As a group, he takes any students who wish to go, and they must only buy thier tickets and take spending money if they want. The monks provide all else.

Wrong. There are other costs are embeded in the 'China trip' cost that you have to pay forward to the school. It is not just the ticket. Everything is included in that price; transportation, food, etc. The only optional part is the spending money. It is a good deal since it is based on a group package, but lets be honest, the monks aren't putting everyone up for free.

Quote:It seems tome that if the Grandmaster had no relationship other rthan money with the monks, he would not be getting such ospitality for free,

It seems to me that most of the Shaolin monks know that there is a large market in foreign kung-fu tourism. Their so called hospitality is probably embeded in the cost of the trip.

Quote:nor would the system itself charge 1/3 what others do, for far more training.

They can charge less because they have such a large student base and a well organized marketing system.

Quote:Rolling 100lb metal bars up and down your shins and forarms to condense the bone isn't a sham.

and that wouldnb't be an exageration would it?

Quote:Punching buckets of marbles until the bones soften, so that they may condense isn't a sham.

Softening so they condense? Are you sure about that?

Quote:Shaolin is slow. Monks spend thier whole lives dedicated to the art, what makes you so impatient that you must be master by blue belt, or its a fake?

Hmmm, I don't recall anyone saying that here. Another exageration? Look, I spent a good solid 5 years training very hard in the SD system and I can tell you that there is more to it than what they have to offer. What they have to offer is not bad, but it could be better. There are ways to train a martial art that have better result as far as fighting skills than learning forms and doing conditioning exercises. Sparring is great, but what good is it if you don't know how to apply what you have been learning?

Quote:

Personally, if you want to be billy bad ass at a tournament, take some other style. If you are dedicated and want to practice a difficult art, that reaps devistating benifits to those who are dedicated enough, then take Shaolin.

Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? Who cares about the tournament! I want to know that what I am pouring my heart and soul into is going to be effective as a martial art. Sure it is difficult, but difficulty shouldn't be the only discerning factor in choosing a martial art that is worth while.

Quote:Shaolin-Do masters do not enter tournaments. Not under Sin The' if they are in good standing. The reason for this is both to preserve the art, and keep it off of videotape, and to keep naysayers talking.

For a second there I thought you were going to throw out the "too deadly for tournament" line.

Quote:What warrior wants his opponent to know everything he can do?

Do you really think that entering into a tournament will really have that effect?

Quote:If you can't punch your finger through someone's temple, then you can bitch.

The location in question is Blue Ash Shaolin Do, in Cincinnati, Ohio. It's not too far away from Bill Leonard's place, from what I hear. The site is www.ohiosd.com.

I don't think that a shady history matters to my friend... but it may. It doesn't really, to me, if the art itself isn't fake. I doubt you'll find a 100% authentic 'Shaolin' style anywhere in the world - Shaolin temples these days even are becoming tourist traps for aspiring MAs.

Either way, if anyone knows anything about the Cincy Shaolin-Do, I'd love some feedback. I will probably try it with him.

Thanks!

Sol,Did you or your friend ever end up checking out the school? I wanted to know what you thought and if I might have run into either of you.

Before I get into the bulk of this post you should know I'm one of the assisstant instructors at Blue Ash Shaolin-Do.

First, Solaron, if you are interested in the classes come in and try one. We try to sell ourselves (BASD) on the art itself. Instrutor credentials are all on the website that you've linked and they hold to be true, IMO.

The belts move by rather quickly and we give you a lot of information. It's my understanding that they early colored belts are set up to give a student a background in several styles and at the same time build up their strength, speed, and precision.

Tarpshack is absolutely correct about getting out of the system what you put into it. If you focus on your stances and move to perform the movements of the forms you'll begin seeing the multiple applications to each move.

And regarding learning application through form, as I was going through my belts (I'm only first black now) my teachers didn't explicitly go through the forms and show us the applications to each move. We were expected to pull the applications from the forms. This practice is no longer strictly followed as we usually now show at least one application to the basic short kata, sparring techniques, etc. if they are not readily apparent.

Our school holds sparring weekly and as you pass into higher belt levels you are allowed to participate in sparring with lower belts.

The "Conditioning" class is just like it sounds, physical conditioning. Lots of pushups, crunches, and squats to build core strength. Sprints and and other cardio training to keep the heart rate up. Punching and kicking drills to keep everyone in class familiar with basic striking techniques. Something that has been experimented with was an experimentation with application where we choose a form and work out different applications from the movements during the class. That last part is a welcome breather from the pushups.

Lastly, I'd like to reiterate that you really do get out of the style what you put in. If you come in you'll see brown belts holding poor stances and not showing much power or intent and you'll also see Yellow belts trying to make the forms as correct as possible but they are all trying and those are the students we enjoy teaching.

Regarding the history, I found this site because I was doing research on the validity of SD's claims. If the history is important to you I think we'll all find out the "truth" when

Fisherman, I have read your profile, and then I reread your post here, and it utterly confuses me. It looks like you would understand some of the basic principles and philosophies involved in martial arts, yet your post directly refutes that." Quote: since there are more than 900 available.

And what good is learning that many forms going to do you? "

What kind of reply is this? Where does the number of forms in a system have anything to do with relevance? Some forms have many katas to learn, others are shorter and greatly simplified. This is due to both the philosophy of the form and it's use. Jeet-Kun Do has a very short system, does that make it more or less relevant as a system? No, it is a different philosophy. The more you learn, the more you have a base knowledge to work with.

" Quote: Rolling 100lb metal bars up and down your shins and forarms to condense the bone isn't a sham.

and that wouldnb't be an exageration would it?"

Well, let's see, I witness my instructors using a 75 lbs bar, but I am sure you will find some way to dismiss this. It's in our dojo if you want to come to Ohio and check it our.

This comment from you threw me for a total loop, I can not fathom how you could possibly say this if you are a student of martial arts: " Sparring is great, but what good is it if you don't know how to apply what you have been learning?"

The whole point of sparring is to practice your technique. If you are not attempting to apply what you have been doing in all your training, then why are you training? If you do katas for twenty hours a week, then switch to classic european/american boxing when you spar, why are you taking martial arts in the first place. Every week, when I spar, I pick a move from one of my katas and focus on trying to use it a fight. Would this work on the street, no, but that's not the point, the idea is to use the sparring to practice applying what I have learned and figuring out how to make it useful. The point of doing the kata hundreds and thousands of times over, is to make it so second nature that this is practical. Are those long forms practical for street application, absolutely not, and you would be missing the boat if you think that's what their purpose is. It is to teach you some forms and to teach you how to link them and let them flow in combat situations. They are loose ideas meant to train and strengthen you. Practical application of those moves is different, hence the sparring practice.

" Quote:

Personally, if you want to be billy bad ass at a tournament, take some other style. If you are dedicated and want to practice a difficult art, that reaps devistating benifits to those who are dedicated enough, then take Shaolin.

Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron?Who cares about the tournament! I want to know that what I am pouring my heart and soul into is going to be effective as a martial art. Sure it is difficult, but difficulty shouldn't be the only discerning factor in choosing a martial art that is worth while."

No, this is not an oxymoron, if you just want to do tournament fighting, some styles lend more to that. I will never be a good point sparrer, because I am willing to take a blow, to set you up for a kill shot. If your punch to my stomach gives me a clean shot at your throat, I'll take that trade off on the street any day. Yes, intent matters.

" Quote: What warrior wants his opponent to know everything he can do?

Do you really think that entering into a tournament will really have that effect?"

There is total relevancy to this, but it would mean seeing the same opponent in competition regularly. In high school, as a wrestler, yes, I intentionally held back on techniques until later in the season. I didn't want the opponent I would see in state championships to have seen all my tricks on our first encounter.

I apologize for making this sound like a personal attack, but when I read your posts, it just floored me. I don't understand how someone who studies martial arts, could seem to miss the boat so much.

I don't know, but he certainly got good responses. There were general Shaolin-Do supporters as well as critics. Plus he got testimony about the Blue Ash Shaolin Do school specifically, as he asked, from both a new student and an assistant instructor.

From his other posts, it appears solaron has made the decision to attend an Aikido school here in Cincinnati. So it may be that he is no longer interested in the answer to his question.

Quote:It looks like you would understand some of the basic principles and philosophies involved in martial arts, yet your post directly refutes that.

I do have an understanding of the basic principles and philosophies involved in MA's. I have more than that in the particular areas I have trained in. Look, I don't profess to know everything, that is why when I don't know about a subject I ask questions. When I do know something I speak freely. This thread is specifically addressing Shaolin Do where I have spent a number of years and countless hours training. I am addressing what I KNOW about the Shaolin Do/Chinese Shaolin Center lineage.Before I continue let me make something perfectly clear. I do not bag on what they do at their schools or the way they teach. I would not be where I am today if it wasn't for what I learned there. I do think that there are more effective and efficient teaching styles out there, but I am not here to play the mine is better than yours game. What I do find irritating is when new people who have not contributed anything to the forums in the past come on with a cocky attitude and show no respect toward other forum members.

Quote:What kind of reply is this?

As I stated above, I won't speak of things I don't know about. I spent a lot of time learning countless forms and didn't get a lot out of it. The question is genuine. What do you think that training 900 forms is going to do for you? How is someone going to have time to thouroughly train all of this and effectively dicipher the information within while trying to remember it all?

Quote:Where does the number of forms in a system have anything to do with relevance?

I was refering to where shaolinbobert posted "Forms are taught in Shaolin, and a lot of them, since there are more than 900 available." Did you read the entire thread?

Quote:The more you learn, the more you have a base knowledge to work with.

And the more you learn you will see that there are only so many ways to manipulate the human body in space especially when that space is shared with another human being that is seeking to engage with you. We all have basic ranges of motion that techniques are built off of. Maybe you have noticed by now (maybe not) that a lot of forms hold similarities to others. Why do you suppose this is? I realy don't care how many forms or katas you do or don't have. My interest lies in whether people can demonstrate a form with proper mechanics, can explain the principles of the movemnts they are performing, and can demonstrate how they are used within the context of fighting.

Quote:Well, let's see, I witness my instructors using a 75 lbs bar, but I am sure you will find some way to dismiss this. It's in our dojo if you want to come to Ohio and check it our.

If I am in that area, I would be more than happy to. I am interested in how a bar weighing that much is used in reference to training. It would seem that using a bar that weighs 75-100 lbs is an exageration because we never used anything that heavy when I was doing SD. Maybe your teachers are doing something different than mine?

Quote:This comment from you threw me for a total loop, I can not fathom how you could possibly say this if you are a student of martial arts:" Sparring is great, but what good is it if you don't know how to apply what you have been learning?"

I mean exactly what I said and you are trying to make a point of it yourself. The point of sparring is to train a learned principle or technique. To train a technique or principle that comes from a form EFFICIENTLY you need to train it as an exercise before you spar with it. It will take people forever if they are trying to figure this out on their own. But then again, maybe this is what people want? If it takes someone longer to learn something, then that geerally means that they the teacher stands to profit more.

Quote:the idea is to use the sparring to practice applying what I have learned and figuring out how to make it useful.

Funny, I thought that this was the point of having a teacher.

Quote:The point of doing the kata hundreds and thousands of times over, is to make it so second nature that this is practical.

Doing a form is not going to do this for you. Training forms 1000's of times is good for exercise, flexibilty and focus. It will not give you an instinctive second nature response when someone attacks you. If you want it to be second nature then you need to find a training partner and practice a technique WITH THEM till it becomes second nature. Practicing a form is in no way comparible to practicing with a training partner.

Quote:I apologize for making this sound like a personal attack, but when I read your posts, it just floored me. I don't understand how someone who studies martial arts, could seem to miss the boat so much.

I don't think I have missed the boat at all. I think that I am traveling on a different boat than what you are. As a matter of fact, I would even go as far to say that I used to be on your boat, I just moved onto another boat that is taking a more direct route to where I want to go.If you are ever in my area, please feel free to PM me. I am very open minded and I truly believe that it is difficult to convey the physical aspect of things in great detail without being able to physicaly demontrate a point.

Hi there! I have been a student in the Chinese Shao-lin Center for four or five years now. And to me, i couldn't be any prouder to be a student. I may only be sixteen but grant me this request and please hear me out. When people say that you can't learn to defend yourself in this school I can sort of understand what their talking about; but they want you to develop the ability to learn from the form as the monks did in the past, or that is my understanding. Also they teach Chin Na seizing and holding techniques which I found very useful as an average highschool teenage boy . Also every week my master teaches applications for the form, so i don't know where everyone is getting that they don't teach you applicatoin. I am also glad that there is a 900+ resivoire of forms, more application, and though it may be much, I would rather be over prepared than under prepared. As for Grandmaster The's stories, call me naive but I beleive them 100%. And even though others would still believe that he was lying, and though it makes me frustrated, the story of his aspirations and achievement had inspired me to such a great degree of training. Thats more than enough for me.Again, I'm am surging with pride for the Chinese Shao-lin Center, Grandmaster The', and my masters. I also feel that it is what the student makes of the art and the teachers that develops a great fighter and not the art itself. I acknowledge that the training there may not be other people's cup of tea, but to me its the best place "I" could possibly be in. Thank you for hearing me out and I hope this helps.

Martial Arts really comes down to personal preference anyway. There are hundreds of posts on this forum alone where people ask, "Which style should I take?" Most often, the common answer given is, "Try all and see which one fits you best." Shaolin-Do is just another style that several people including myself find very beneficial. If it weren't for the people I knew taking and teaching Shaolin-Do I probably wouldn't be taking any martial art at all today. It may be that one day, after years of training, I find myself unsatisfied and searching for a new system, but I can't see it. Right now it's everything I need it to be.