So, precursor to this post, I'm going to try to leave IC out of it as much as possible, but, just as a warning, I may straddle the line a little bit. I'm not trying to step on any toes here. Further, this entire post is solely my opinion on the matter-- I don't know what anyone else thinks about the orc sphere, I'm just posting mine. Everyone else can post theirs if they want. So, with that out of the way.

First and foremost, I've been having a blast. The sphere is as rough-and-tumble as I wanted it to be, and I feel like I'm going to get murdered by something on a daily basis. That's fun. I've always said that if I'm not constantly in danger on a MUD then I'm bored. I also like getting to breathe life back into orkish culture with some tweaks-- I've always been a fan of bringing a culture to life. So there's that.

Now, when the MUD opened, the sphere went exactly as I expected it to; everyone started murdering each other to establish some form of heirarchy, and also just because. Within the first week I think there were more than 10 or so PKs. I was okay with that, personally, because I knew that, at some point, everyone would settle down and the PKs would taper off. The admins hated the PKs more than I did, understandably, so started establishing IC rules that all murderers would be dealth with harshly. I understood that, too.

What I didn't quite understand was how adamant they were about it. Even if a PK was accidental, or if the murdered absolutely deserved it in every conceivable fasion, the offending party was punished, usually by being killed themselves. I let this slide for the most part, too, though I would like to point out that after the no-killing rule was established, there were only a couple of PKs, and the majority of them were accidental.

What I hated about this rule was that I saw, on at least one occasion, PCs hiding behind the rule in an OOC fashion, as in "You can't do anything about me so I'm going to me as much of a douchebag as possible," when, in all actuality, an orc acting like that would be murdered off-hand, and nobody would give a damn-- you can't expect to make as many enemies as possible and then not get killed for it, as an orc. This was a staple back in the old Minas Morgul days. Sure, on paper, you couldn't kill anybody, but if some little orc or goblin was running around, being a little shit, no one would say a word if he disappeared. Not even if he disappeared while standing in the middle of a room full of people.

So, those were the first things that sort of irked me as an orkish player-- but those were in the past, and have no bearing on the current state of the sphere, or at least what I'm getting to, so let's move on.

After this, came the Split, which is where stuff gets IC, so I'll sort of straddle it. I will say that I didn't hate the decision, personally, though I heard that some did. It didn't much have an effect on how I played the game, and actually fed into my playstyle, so I thought it was pretty cool.

Let me pause here to say that this isn't me bitching about any clan's particular advantage over any other clan, or me complaining about this or that or whatever-- everyone who knows me knows that I always play the hand I'm dealt regardless of circumstances. I don't care of They have X while We have Y, or about Our lack of Z. I play around it. Anyway.

From what I've noticed, personally, the sphere has sort of stagnated after the Split. It isn't for lack of players, or lack of interaction between clans, but for the simple lack of stuff to do. There's no real reason to go hunting other than just to grind skills because with the way the wildlife is loaded and the abundance of crashes (ALPHA) there is no scarcity of meat. We could go hunt humans, I suppose, but going out specifically to murder as many other PCs as you possibly can isn't exactly something that I want to attempt on a daily basis.

It's also seeming to me that all the crafters are going to one clan, while the other clan has all the uncraftable crafting materials, and, due to IC events that I won't go into, they're sort of gridlocked. One clan has no motivation to go out and get materials because they lack the ability to do anything with them, but not the crafters, while the other clan has no motivation to get materials because they have the ability to do stuff with them, but not the crafters-- and it can't really be alleviated because no one wants to put themselves behind a locked door just to get at a no-take crafting object.

What could be done to put a change to this? Communal crafting areas maybe? I don't know.

The point of all this is, there's seeming to be less and less stuff to actually do when I log in, at least from a goal-oriented perspective, which I realize is a problem caused by myself. I mean, I can log on and just sit around on my lazy ass and do nothing but RP on some days, but on most days I want some short-term goal or something to accomplish, and I can RP before, during, and after that.

This is the obligatory paragraph where I say that I understand that this is an ALPHA, I understand that most of the RPAs are off doing stuff RL, and that when they get back there will be heaps of plots and all sorts of other great stuff. I know all this, and I especially know that the game is in the middle of being adjusted to make it fun when admins aren't around (as I'm one of the ones making some of these adjustments). I'm just getting my thoughts out there on where I've seen the orkish sphere come from, where it's gone, and where I think it may be heading, for no real reason other than to just say it and see what everyone else has to say.

To add to all of this, let's say from my perspective I'm mostly amicable to what Krelm posted here. I fully understand the situation and am also okay with it, if in fact a "disadvantaged position" is intentional, at least for a time, if not always and forever. These things breed adversity, and adversity breeds conflict, and conflict breeds roleplay.

But let me put it like this. It might not be the type of roleplay the staff, or many players were expecting. The way things were going to go. Characters behaved in a unique way that didn't conform with the initial trajectory planned. Well. That's...because we are all serious players who believe in IC actions, and many of us are also very goal oriented, who play goal oriented characters, further exacerbating a problem that stems from the lack of having things to do, and then artificially having to create things out of thin air to make up for the lack of any outside assistance.

Now, I don't feel like anyone who made decisions up top, at least in our sphere, has any hard feelings, and on the contrary I feel like it was pretty much rolled with so far. Awesome! That's great when admins don't feel angered by players acting and thinking outside of the proverbial box. RPIs are amazing, I'm so glad to be back. Going on...

If you give one group of players staff sponsorship and RPA assistance and some boot-up infrastructure and then make sure they have a zero-sum game of absolute bargaining power, you better believe the opposed group is going to throttle every advantage they can get out of them until they start thinking they're not so advantaged after all.

If something is being deliberately done to say, "yeah! This is the way things are, because we assumed it would be in the spirit of fairness!" That's always gone pretty well in the past too. I think decisions made in the spirit of playability are almost always better, compared to anything else. And right now, there isn't much playability. Gridlocked. Standoff. Conflict without conflict.

In the end, I can say with absolute certainty that no matter what happens, I will continue to log in and have as much fun with the cards I can put into play now and in the future, but I can't guarantee that the other people in my sphere share the same energy and excitement that I do when put in this position. People are going to start quitting, suicide or just stop logging in until things change. And that's a shame, a sphere shouldn't be put into a state of artificial stagnation when conceivably we could be doing something to rectify it.

I hope you die right now, will you drink my chemical?

Brian wrote:See, the thing that I admire about WorkerDrone is that he's an optimist!

First off, let me say Orc sphere forever; the atmosphere is great, Staff is obviously slaving away, and overall doing a better job than can be expected or asked for.

My personal opinion is that much of what has happened has been motivated by OOC circumstances. Both on the Staff-side and Player-side. On the Player-Side, OOC connections have buoyed and sustained some avenues of RP. While on the Staff-side, a desire to keep players alive and happy has resulted in leniency and avoiding heavy-handed responses that might have made more sense ICly. Threatening or overtly expressing the desire for the death of a substantially more powerful Orc should result in swift termination.

The split IMO was a horrible decision. I remember reading posts about keeping clan halls to minimum, and then this happens right out of the gate. I would blame any present stagnancy on this split. However, I think this is to be expected while re-building and re-organizing occurs after such an event. This, in and of itself, can create RP. Instead of treating or viewing the problem as an OOC issue, address it ICly. The Split has happened IC, there is no changing this. Adapt and survive.

Lastly, consequences of IC decisions should be dealt with ICly. Choosing to go against the established power will always have negative results, especially if that effort fails, either in the short term or long term. The lack of certain resources, whether it be players, crafting items, or pink penguins, should be dealt with IC. Seeking sphere alterations such as community crafting areas when these consequences become inconvenient is seeking an OOC solution to an IC problem.

My personal opinion is that much of what has happened has been motivated by OOC circumstances. Both on the Staff-side and Player-side. On the Player-Side, OOC connections have buoyed and sustained some avenues of RP. While on the Staff-side, a desire to keep players alive and happy has resulted in leniency and avoiding heavy-handed responses that might have made more sense ICly. Threatening or overtly expressing the desire for the death of a substantially more powerful Orc should result in swift termination.

Couldn't have said it better. This is the reason I do not follow along with the orcs who caused the split. I don't like how it came to be. On the other-side, realistically, alot of death should have happened, but hasn't simply because of leniency and avoiding heavy-handed responses. Its also demoralizing and unrealistic to see nearly every orc pc up and leave the staff-run orcs, when simply asked.

Really? What IC reason do you have to leave the most powerful orcish clan who dominates the area, leave all of your friends, resources, to go stick it out in the wilds for hardship, in the blink of an eye without hesitation, for a group of uruk who were banished by your own warboss, for orcs you DONT know? Lets be realistic here.Most orcs would see that as SUICIDE. "I want to go be a rebel in the wilds and become hated by hundreds of much stronger orcs, who own the area I hunt in." Come on now.

I don't mean to be rude, or mean, but from a realistic sense, im just not buying it. Those who caused the split, are going to have to deal with many hardships, from my perspective. They chose to toss everything out the window, and start anew. I think its great, that they are doing such, and awesome that they are pulling it off. But don't expect anyone to sugarcoat it for you.

Doublepalli wrote:Really? What IC reason do you have to leave the most powerful orcish clan who dominates the area, leave all of your friends, resources, to go stick it out in the wilds for hardship, in the blink of an eye without hesitation, for a group of uruk who were banished by your own warboss, for orcs you DONT know?

Remember, a lot of the orcs are from tribes. This style of life appeals to those who want to live rough and raw, and yes we live one room from wargs and wolves at any given moment but this appeals to some; not all orcs share the exact same mentality and I'd wager that they have a lot less investment in their life's stability than your average human. Compare the things that a Morgul orc might value versus a tribe from the Misty Mountains or Gundabad. Our primary orc role is essentially "You are a tribesman who got screwed over" which assumes neither loyalty nor any particular adherence to the ways of Striza. With opportunity comes a choice, and one that shouldn't be judged; an orc is who he is and what he wants is what he'll do - The prospect of the hunt-and-gather lifestyle and being a sort of wild-orc is very interesting to me and I think it opens more avenues of roleplay than it shuts. Something about the bunch of shadowed figures hopping over that wall in droves to hunt, it's just an evocative picture in my mind.

In terms of the lack of things to do, I think it'll boil down to finding creative ways to use the wilderness surrounds and manpower together. Setting up relay points between important spots (even just a stick wrapped with bright cloth as a marker) or even just dragging out the group to prospect the right parts of the forest for lumbering. Coordinated group work gives us all a chance to rp and invites emergent wilderness crap that switches it up and keeps it from being too straightforward. Hunt can be "gather", or it could be "explore" or "build". Even if staff are busy with other things and not loading up specific stuff with descriptions, we can roleplay with the things we've built and eventually should the clan persist they'll be sort of...infrastructure landmarks that we can use for directions. "Head east from the southernmost deer stand" and so on.

Me, personally? I love the orc sphere in its current rendition and would be content to see it continue this way. Once the side of things that reminds us we're in Alpha gets sorted out I'm sure the Axes & Vadok will have a good dynamic going.

Everything gets smaller now the further that I goTowards the mouth and the reunion of the known and the unknownConsider yourself lucky if you think of it as homeYou can move mountains with your misery if you don't

Really? What IC reason do you have to leave the most powerful orcish clan who dominates the area, leave all of your friends, resources, to go stick it out in the wilds for hardship, in the blink of an eye without hesitation, for a group of uruk who were banished by your own warboss, for orcs you DONT know? Lets be realistic here.Most orcs would see that as SUICIDE. "I want to go be a rebel in the wilds and become hated by hundreds of much stronger orcs, who own the area I hunt in." Come on now.

I disagree with this. Mostly because regardless of what the ooc motivations that inspired a few to go, a sizeable number of them saw it as an opportunity to actually have a voice. Yes the hardships are there, and yes, the limited resources make it difficult to thrive in a crafters sense but out in the wilds, every decision they make or don't make can lead to death. That kind of opposition makes orcs stronger when they succeed and many of them, I'm sure, are looking forward to succeeding, with or without staff backing.

The phrase 'It's better to live on your feet, then die on your knees' comes to mind when I think of the exiles. I'm looking forward to seeing how this all plays out.

Firstly, I never expected to survive with this character as long as I have. That in itself, is worth a lot to me. (Knock on Wood).

Secondly, I have to disagree with the Split. I have to disagree with 90% of the entire orcish sphere going off to follow a washed up war leader who fought and lost against Vadok. How can they expect to win, when they were wiped out the first time?

Thirdly, I don't like the OOC communication between those of the Axes. I don't like the automatic loyalty, and the 'screw the rules' attitude. I understand it, I get that most of the 'loyals' were former members of the Axes to begin with. But at the same time, there's still the fact that they LOST the first time. They're in even WORSE shape now. (And this is not IC info, there's a whole thread devoted to explaining the Axes and their history.)

And frankly, I'm just jealous. I'm jealous that a bunch of orcs get exiled, or leave from the most powerful Warband in Mirkwood, and get what seems like a reward for it, when others have died for the exact same reasons they were exiled for.

I can't say that Vadok would be better off if the Split never happened, because I personally do not like how things were run prior to it. I did not like the OOC killings. I did not like the constant PK. I did not like any of it, because most of the time it was for flimsy reasoning. (While that might not be exactly true, it's how I felt about 50% of the PKing that ensued).

It just feels (to me) like the Split undermines the admins, and their original plans for the orc sphere. And I also don't like how some people are treated by the Axes. (Granted, it was all IC, I know. It's just my personal feelings about it)

And I just don't like that particular way of playing, it feels too exclusive.

-- As for everything else, I am quite fond of how things are running in general. Just the stuff above I dislike.

I have two forces by my sideOne's the truth and one's a lieWhich one's which I cannot tellThis enigma is my hell

You know...Im hearing "Vadok are the most powerful" getting thrown around a lot. Thats not exactly what I've heard. Either from documentation or from staff-animated NPCs. The Vadok got -their- asses handed to them too and are pitifully low on numbers. Thus the reasoning Striza had for bothering to pay for snagas(You). Like the axes themselves Striza's Vadok survived their onslaught with a handful of guys and now have to make due with all the new and generally useless flesh he's bought to pad out his ranks. IMO it made sense for Striza to just kick them out then try to kill them all and you know. Possibly lose.

Anyways thats something I wanted to point out. Mum on the rest of the conversation. Though when ever I hear "OOC this" or "OOC that" I just kind of chuckle.

It's amusing how there's a batch of players in both spheres who decided to say "snarfagle the setting, we're too cool for school and better than the other saps". I haven't played an orc, but from an outsider's POV, it sounds like the Hill Men thing is happening in Orc Sphere.

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:It's amusing how there's a batch of players in both spheres who decided to say "snarfagle the setting, we're too cool for school and better than the other saps". I haven't played an orc, but from an outsider's POV, I'm not sure why staff is letting the Hill Men thing happen in Orc Sphere.

I'd rather the staff is too laissez-faire than too heavy-handed, personally. It's ALPHA; we're expecting a ton of bumps and new decisions and maybe reversals along the way. Something seems unfair or wrong? If lots of people end up feeling that way then we learned a useful lesson and we plug on.

If the game were fully open I'd feel very differently.

* * *

And on topic, I have a question for the players of orcs, as someone who always played human PCs even when in Mordorian spheres in the past: does the current state of the orkish sphere make it any less newbie-friendly than it otherwise would be? I don't mean from a code-wise or game-mechanical sense so much as just not having experience playing orcs and likely starting out really crummy at it. (Because seriously, I think my next PC really needs to be an orc!)

Economics aside, and danger aside, the playerbase is not close to an even Split as the name seems to imply. 4/5ths (near that, bit less) of the sphere now reside within one clan, and the rest with the other. Newbies app into the latter, if possible, who are currently in a state of stratus as much as the other.

I would say it's probably a tossup. Some newbies might continue to play through the unique situation and think, "Wow, that can really happen? RPIs are cool." And that'd be that. Others might quit, stop logging in, change spheres, and so on and so forth. Any number of people might do that though, so I guess it might really be all the same.

I hope you die right now, will you drink my chemical?

Brian wrote:See, the thing that I admire about WorkerDrone is that he's an optimist!

WorkerDrone wrote:Economics aside, and danger aside, the playerbase is not close to an even Split as the name seems to imply. 4/5ths (near that, bit less) of the sphere now reside within one clan, and the rest with the other. Newbies app into the latter, if possible, who are currently in a state of stratus as much as the other.

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:It's amusing how there's a batch of players in both spheres who decided to say "snarfagle the setting, we're too cool for school and better than the other saps". I haven't played an orc, but from an outsider's POV, it sounds like the Hill Men thing is happening in Orc Sphere.

Except, as opposed to the Hillmen, who said, "We see all this and decide to live out on our own," with the Axes it was them being told, "Get out, or get dead. No other choices." Exile is, by its very nature, something you don't choose to do (unless the other choice is death).

Anyway, skipping all the OOC accusations, because I don't feel like I have to defend myself against them. If you want to accuse me of having a clique, or whatever it is being implied in half these posts, feel free to PM me about it. I may read and respond to said PM, but more than likely I'll read it and laugh at you before forgetting I ever got a PM the very next day.

Dragging this thread back to the topic at hand, I feel like Real said it best. I personally hate trying to think of random reasons to go hunting, because to me it always feels like I'm going, "Let me pull a reason out of my ass to go outside and grind my skills!" though I suppose that's more of a personal problem than anything else. Other than that, I don't really have anything else to say on it. I guess I'm more worried about everyone else getting bored that I am worried about myself getting bored.

To chime in on admins controlling the whole PK thing. When players were using that as a shield to be able to say/do whatever they wanted it was pretty frustrating as an orc player. That combined with the resurrection for a PC that was legit PK'd had me reroll human.

Claiming that a lot of the PKs that happened is pretty off. I was a PK early in and that was pretty much just poor RP and bad understanding of how orcs worked on the PKing players part. Well, they were OOC friends with a joined background but I give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Well my very first Orc, not even an hour old. Fell into the "pit" with no access to the ladder, and being completely new I didn't know how to operate it, and couldn't from below. So when someone else wandered in, and got stuck, they turned to my 20 min old orc and said, "Well one of us has to die." or some shit like that. And then prompted to kill me... didn't even get to 30 min old. LoL, While I wasn't mad, and it was pretty right on with the grit and harshness I would expect more from Orcs. And with the new rules about PKing, I feel as long as it is Legit, and you Petition up about it before hand so they can watch and see it isn't twinking or unnecessary I think -in house/clan- killing would be fine. With Roleplay of course

Staff say that a group of PCs, if they put in substantial work and log building efforts, can have x and y. They say that, the PCs put in all this work RPing, keeping logs, sending in support tickets and petitions... And then staff suddenly change their mind and start stonewalling that group of PCs instead, refusing to answer petitions or support tickets, even when clearly available, and when asked about that, resort to shooting said PCs with arrows fired from their wizinvis admin avatar instead, trying to kill them off, while still refusing to even hint at the possibility of following through with their earlier promise. It's not fair to those PCs who put in the effort to get such a relentless shaft, and be left dangling on it.

Resort to shooting said PCs with arrows fired from their wizinvis admin avatar instead, trying to kill them off, while still refusing to even hint at the possibility of following through with their earlier promise. It's not fair to those PCs who put in the effort to get such a relentless shaft, and be left dangling on it.

This instance was probably an event. We are close to Thranduil's Halls, after all. And it's been said the Bear shifter dude who's name I can't remember, is around here too.

That's like saying the Admins purposely ran Atlas to kill people in Atonement.

I have two forces by my sideOne's the truth and one's a lieWhich one's which I cannot tellThis enigma is my hell

That's like saying the Admins purposely ran Atlas to kill people in Atonement.

90% of the time Betty, Lucy, Old Man Moon, or, yes, Atlas was animated, it was pretty much specifically ran to either cause as much damage as possible, or ran specifically to kill as many PCs as possible. I know this for a fact. That was a poor example. This is still off topic.

That's like saying the Admins purposely ran Atlas to kill people in Atonement.

90% of the time Betty, Lucy, Old Man Moon, or, yes, Atlas was animated, it was pretty much specifically ran to either cause as much damage as possible, or ran specifically to kill as many PCs as possible. I know this for a fact. That was a poor example. This is still off topic.

I mis-worded that, my mistake, and left out context, but yes they usually were out for events, not to specifically kill specific people. But, I think talking about the rez is also off-topic, as is the talk of elves protecting their particular territory.

--

Moving back /on/ topic, regardless of my personal feelings, I am enjoying the Orc sphere more then I thought I would, but then I've always liked orcs. Or anything besides a normal human. XD

I have two forces by my sideOne's the truth and one's a lieWhich one's which I cannot tellThis enigma is my hell

From my personal point of view, the ban on PKing was the biggest mistake. I can understand why staff made that decision because it looks, on paper, to be a good thing - but it's actually really harmful.

It probably would have been okay if it was more like "Okay, we need a little bit of time for both spheres to get established, so we're physically separating you two for a while - so no human vs orc PK". However, telling Orcs that they can't kill each other basically removes the very premise of an orcish sphere.

You can and should have Striza telling people not to kill each other, and enforcing harshly those who do - but he shouldn't be omniscient. It was never "Open Season" on PK in the Orcish sphere, you had to be smart about it. You didn't go murdering people in the clan hall or in front of a bunch of people (unless all of those people were your people), you waited until they wandered into the wilderness or the slums and you murdered them.

This actually gives the Orcs a lot to do because sooner or later someone decides to kill someone else - and often the other person finds out (or it's just plain obvious) that someone wants to kill them, and becomes more careful about going into lawless areas). This leads to a lot of roleplay and activity around trying to set each other up.

What actually happened when the ban came in and was OOCly enforced (rather than ICly enforced) is that there was no longer any need for any of that - everyone knew that they were 100% safe, and could go anywhere they pleased, and would probably be resurrected if they died (which did actually happen). Hence, everyone went around being absolute jerks to one another but without any consequences. The people who would naturally have "educated" these people about what happens when you're a jerk in the Orcish sphere (get killed), couldn't do anything and looked impotent, and thus you gutted your potential middle-leadership in one go.

The Orcish sphere is supposed all about danger and jealousy. At the moment, it's about twinking up your skills and wondering when the staff are going to PK you with their admin avatars.

Another thing - clan splits like this one are actually good in the Orcish sphere. They happened all the time in Minas Morgul, and they let players blow off steam and get a sense of accomplishment. Usually what ended up happening was when they got big enough, they'd get recognised or reabsorbed. This would happen a lot with Gothakra - some independent orcish warband starts up, has a bit of success, then Gothakra comes along and says "You're Gothakra now, and your leader is a Zuruk/Puruk (middle leader)" or whatever. Usually the implied other option was being wiped out by the Gothakra - but that was okay. Gothakra didn't care if 3 or 4 snaga thought they were important - but if a dozen or so started thinking it, well, it was time to reign them in.

This playerbase split is good ultimately - it should show you a bit about how orcish players think. Striza has to be able to motivate people beyond the pure fear of death, because if that's all he has, well, they'll take the first opportunity to escape that fear and start up on their own.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm still having fun. I would like for there to be more things to do that don't involve staff, and I do think the PK situation needs to be fixed ASAP (your two-sphere problem might even fix itself pretty quickly if that were the case). The orcish sphere must be free to be itself - a dangerous place where as long as nobody cares who you are or knows what you did, you can do whatever you want - but somewhere that attention of people more powerful than you is about the worst thing you could hope for.