Post by pakhak on Aug 19, 2014 16:13:44 GMT -5

Hey Fellow Bonnaroo Lovers --

I'm working on a side business named PakHak (http://www.pakhak.com). My goal is to make it cheaper, easier, and greener to get set up in the general camping area of the festival. My plan to do this is to offer full kits for rental (tents, sleeping bags, canopy, cookware, lantern, etc...) just outside of festival grounds, where one can pick the kit up on the way in, and drop it off on the way out.

I'd love to get the community's feedback on the following:

a. do you think this is a reasonable idea and brings enough valueb. what do you think should be in the kitc. what ideas might you have for getting the word out there

Appreciate any help and guidance. Please feel free to message me directly at festivaljunkie@pakhak.com

Post by jfg108 on Aug 19, 2014 16:21:13 GMT -5

I'm working on a side business named PakHak (http://www.pakhak.com). My goal is to make it cheaper, easier, and greener to get set up in the general camping area of the festival. My plan to do this is to offer full kits for rental (tents, sleeping bags, canopy, cookware, lantern, etc...) just outside of festival grounds, where one can pick the kit up on the way in, and drop it off on the way out.

I'd love to get the community's feedback on the following:

a. do you think this is a reasonable idea and brings enough valueb. what do you think should be in the kitc. what ideas might you have for getting the word out there

Appreciate any help and guidance. Please feel free to message me directly at festivaljunkie@pakhak.com

Interesting idea to combat the ground scores and trashed equipment that gets left behind.

However, have you seen how some of the festival attendees treat their own belongings throughout the weekend? I believe without major deposits you would suffer losses from renters trashing your equipment, maybe not even returning it. If the deposit is prohibitively high, revenue will suffer.

Post by chicojuarz on Aug 19, 2014 16:30:49 GMT -5

I'm working on a side business named PakHak (http://www.pakhak.com). My goal is to make it cheaper, easier, and greener to get set up in the general camping area of the festival. My plan to do this is to offer full kits for rental (tents, sleeping bags, canopy, cookware, lantern, etc...) just outside of festival grounds, where one can pick the kit up on the way in, and drop it off on the way out.

I'd love to get the community's feedback on the following:

a. do you think this is a reasonable idea and brings enough valueb. what do you think should be in the kitc. what ideas might you have for getting the word out there

Appreciate any help and guidance. Please feel free to message me directly at festivaljunkie@pakhak.com

I'd think the logistics and overhead associated with the travel would be cost prohibitive. The festival can do this because they already have a significant amount of money in transportation to the festival location. I cant imagine a startup would have the same flexibility.

How would the equipment get from one fest to the next? How would you repair, recycle and store kits out of season? How would you advertise when you wouldnt be able to market and advertise using the festival's materials? People would always be booking in advance, so if you're not marketing ahead of time you'll get almost no sales.

Post by jimmyroo on Aug 19, 2014 16:32:02 GMT -5

I'm working on a side business named PakHak (http://www.pakhak.com). My goal is to make it cheaper, easier, and greener to get set up in the general camping area of the festival. My plan to do this is to offer full kits for rental (tents, sleeping bags, canopy, cookware, lantern, etc...) just outside of festival grounds, where one can pick the kit up on the way in, and drop it off on the way out.

I'd love to get the community's feedback on the following:

a. do you think this is a reasonable idea and brings enough valueb. what do you think should be in the kitc. what ideas might you have for getting the word out there

Appreciate any help and guidance. Please feel free to message me directly at festivaljunkie@pakhak.com

Post by MacRoober on Aug 19, 2014 16:40:30 GMT -5

a. do you think this is a reasonable idea and brings enough value - cool idea, but you're going to get some dirty stuff returned. dusty/muddy/broken tents and canopies, sticky tables, pots/pans with food stuck in them. Plus, what's keeping people from just not returning the items? how do people get the food/ice/drinks to your location without the cooler? Maybe that item shouldn't be included.b. what do you think should be in the kit - I like your list, but I'd hate to have to inspect 10,000+ items when people are leaving. how do people get the food/ice/drinks to your location without the cooler? Maybe that item shouldn't be included.c. what ideas might you have for getting the word out there - looks like you've got all of the appropriate avenues on your site.

*Wouldn't it be reasonable to charge a security deposit on the equipment up to say 75% ?*Do you think the festivals would join in on co-marketing?*What type of equipment breakage do you think would be reasonable to expect, even with a deposit?

Would love any and all feedback -- be as critical/skeptical as you'd like

Post by Roo'adelphia on Aug 19, 2014 18:21:26 GMT -5

*Wouldn't it be reasonable to charge a security deposit on the equipment up to say 75% ?

Very much so. But then basically the deposit is enough to buy all the gear you will need and yo will own it for next time festival/camping trip.

I think if folks are flying in and out for Tent Only and need a "kit" this will work, but I wouldnt imagine that is a big bulk of the festival population.

Biggest issues I see are bedbugs, grime, filth, mud, and stains on everything. Are these people going to be fully required to bring back equipment in pristine condition? Will it count against their deposit if its a rainy roo and mud is all over everything? I think thats enough to sway me to not take the gamble on someone elses belongings with a deposit and just buy second hand/new equipment for myself. Half the time I leave things behind after 2 years due to grossness.

Edit: Plus one festival ends, another starts 4 days later. Not alot of time to head to the dry cleaners with 500 tents, sleeping bags, and such.

Post by pakhak on Aug 19, 2014 18:47:15 GMT -5

Thanks @ Roo'adelphia

I suppose perhaps a better model then would be to plan it into the biz model that I might only get 20% recoverable tents, charge a lower security deposit, and just plan around a much higher churn rate. So it's more like I'm selling the equipment and just hoping to get some that I can recover?

As for the festivals -- I'd really just be focused on the biggest ones where there is the most market and potential value add. Would love to chat directly if you're around.

Post by scud on Aug 19, 2014 20:12:59 GMT -5

My advice is to start with smaller fests in order to work on the logistics before approaching the larger festivals. Since the larger have similar programs you're going to have to show them your reliability and they'll want a "cut", of course.

Post by JHOinTN on Aug 20, 2014 6:52:40 GMT -5

I'm by no means a business person, but would it work better if you just sold them the equipment and then purchased it back (at a rate you deem reasonable after you see the state of the equipment)? This may not work as well to help with the carbon footprint, as I'm sure many people will just abandon the equipment after the fest. But maybe the incentive of making some money by selling it back will motivate them more than leaving it all behind?

When Druid and I went to Glastonbury, the only equipment we brought with us was a tent (and only because Druid had purchased a lightweight one at REI). We purchased the rest of our camping equipment onsite at a retailer... we had no choice because we couldn't bring all of the stuff we needed overseas and on a charter bus. I had hoped the retailer or the fest had some sort of recycling program, but they didn't. (Hopefully, someone got some good ground scores though.) I would have happily taken the stuff back to the retailer at the end of the festival and sold back what we could to make some money back. And yes, I would have happily purchased used equipment.

Post by pakhak on Aug 20, 2014 13:19:28 GMT -5

That's a really interesting idea -- I'm going to attempt to model out what something like that might look like and post a bit later to see what it might look like and whether it can be profitable. Perhaps I can buy in advance some Bonnaroo tickets and give them out to free to people whom help with the clean-up, with a full ticket re-imbursement + 'commission' for those that gather and return PakHaks left on the festival grounds once everyone leaves.

*Price of tent must be less than say $500-$600 or it becomes better to simply buy the equipment yourself*Operational (cleaning/pick-up) work for the renter needs to be as low as possible while still recovering equipment. Say needs to be a 4 out of 10*Tent must be of high enough quality that it is re-usable many times

Post by Roo'adelphia on Aug 20, 2014 13:36:47 GMT -5

That's a really interesting idea -- I'm going to attempt to model out what something like that might look like and post a bit later to see what it might look like and whether it can be profitable. Perhaps I can buy in advance some Bonnaroo tickets and give them out to free to people whom help with the clean-up, with a full ticket re-imbursement + 'commission' for those that gather and return PakHaks left on the festival grounds once everyone leaves.

Get a few of your people in as post op cleanup. 1 person can turn to 10 with the right incentives. There are things left behind that you can get on the free and fix up. Most rainy last days people leave stuff due to the mud alone. People break a tent pole and leave the perfectly good tent etc. etc. Could be a source of used wears inside while you handle to selling/trading in gear just off the festival boundaries.

Post by JHOinTN on Aug 20, 2014 13:56:14 GMT -5

That's a really interesting idea -- I'm going to attempt to model out what something like that might look like and post a bit later to see what it might look like and whether it can be profitable. Perhaps I can buy in advance some Bonnaroo tickets and give them out to free to people whom help with the clean-up, with a full ticket re-imbursement + 'commission' for those that gather and return PakHaks left on the festival grounds once everyone leaves.

Or you could contact Bonnaroo about removing leftover equipment after the festival. I believe they let a non-profit from Chattanooga in this year to get the stuff. I can't remember if the non-profit fixed it up and sold it or if they gave it to the homeless. Someone posted an article about it on Inforoo, though I can't find it now.

I would encourage people to bring their items to you themselves, so you don't have to scavenge the grounds after the fest. Maybe have some incentives, such as a drawing free ticket to the next year's Roo or another festival, for those that return/resell their equipment to you.

I think this idea could work, though you'd likely lose money the first few years. You could always sponsor Camp Inforoo 2015 as a way to get the word out

Post by Clairity on Aug 20, 2014 14:41:01 GMT -5

I'm by no means a business person, but would it work better if you just sold them the equipment and then purchased it back (at a rate you deem reasonable after you see the state of the equipment)?

Think this would be the best plan of attack in regards to what the goal of the company is.

I agree with this. It's not uncommon for people to buy a cheap tent just for one festival and then leave it behind. This model would give folks a chance to buy it from you and then return for a certain percent refund. Maybe use different price points for new vs lightly used?As someone who flies into festivals somewhat regularly, i can see the use of this. I have a small tent that flies well, but shade canopies, sleeping bags, tent fans, and air mattresses are tricky to pack. I would think you'd need to get in with the actual fest for marketing in order to be successful.

Post by easymorningrebel on Aug 20, 2014 15:43:43 GMT -5

Sorry, but anyone who isn't willing/able to pack/buy/own their own gear isn't going to cook either...so the stove/propane, frypan and cookpot can all go. Your target seems to be inexperienced campers with disposable incomes...stick to things everyone needs, shade tents, chairs(bound to be destroyed), you might want to add cots in place of sleeping bags, maybe throw a 24 pack of bottled water in the mix, etc. Good luck!!

I realize it's very likely a typo, but as someone already mentioned, your misspelled Bonnaroo on your website!!

Post by downonthefarm on Aug 21, 2014 18:50:48 GMT -5

I like your enthusiasm for the festival scene. That said this rental thing is not a business idea that I would invest in. I feel like the risks to the equipment would require prohibitive deposits. A particularly stormy festival and equipment rented by inexperienced campers would be trashed. I feel like the market is very small. People without gear traveling long distances by plane or bus or bumming a ride and what not. I feel that for the average rental price ($340), most of the necessary equipment (although of lesser quality) could be purchased outright. Inexperienced campers could just buy disposable gear and not have to worry about taking care of it picking it up and returning it. Pre rental and post rental inspections would be troublesome as well. It is already a nightmare getting into bonnaroo as it is and I would not want to make another stop and deal with another mess of getting and inspecting my rental gear right before the festival.

Many people may like the buy the gear on the website and pick it up at the festival then possibly resell idea. This has legs. They should have to pay in advance with a portion nonrefundable. You will have to buy the gear for those who get in at the last minute. But for those who sign up early, you can use their money to buy the gear with little money spent upfront. Increase the price in the last few days before the festival to encourage people to sign up early.

Post by pakhak on Aug 22, 2014 8:19:31 GMT -5

I think that all of your points are very fair and reasonable, and agree that this idea of selling the equipment, and then buying a portion back is likely the best to package the product/service. I've run the numbers on simply selling the equipment at the festival and allowing pre-orders online, and find that the margins just aren't appealing enough after considering effort put in, logistical planning, marketing, etc... Then on top of all that, I really want the brand to be aligned with reducing festival waste, and the quality of equipment that I would buy for that type of biz model would do exactly the opposite.

I'm trying to build a business model around the buy-back model and would love to hear thoughts on the following inputs:-What percent of suitable equipment do you think one could actually recover? 10% 30% 50%?-What price should one be willing to pay for recovered, non-damaged equipment?-Do you think that 'Roo / any of the festivals would allow a vendor within the campsite at a reasonable enough price?-Any other thoughts as to how to reduce friction in the pick-up / return of the equipment

Post by fwstringer on Aug 22, 2014 8:50:57 GMT -5

When we came over for Roo this year we purchased everything we needed to keep dry and have a bloody comfortable festival to 5 days. We spent about $300 for lot. This included an ezup, two separate tents, air beds, camping chairs, sleeping bags, portable shower, a couple of coolers and loads of regular camping stuff.

We gave most of it away at the end of the festival, there was many people willing to take. Some stuff, like the tents were rubbish, so we left them.

We could have gotten the essentials for about $150. It's quite impressive how little stuff you actually need as can still have a good time.

I think you would struggle to beat that. And we flew a pretty long way to be there.

Post by easymorningrebel on Aug 22, 2014 9:22:22 GMT -5

I'm trying to build a business model around the buy-back model and would love to hear thoughts on the following inputs:-What percent of suitable equipment do you think one could actually recover? 10% 30% 50%?too many variables, do you want a guess?

-What price should one be willing to pay for recovered, non-damaged equipment?based on what? depreciation? what equipment?

-Do you think that 'Roo / any of the festivals would allow a vendor within the campsite at a reasonable enough price?why are you asking inforoo? this is a yes or no question for the festival organizers

I was initially interested in helping you brainstorm, but this idea is bad, BAAAADDD...and it's the only thing you are posting about on Inforoo, which also is bad, BAAAADDDD! Honestly, it doesn't sound like you've ever attended a festival and you're asking questions that you haven't researched or thought out for yourself.

Post by pakhak on Aug 22, 2014 10:44:09 GMT -5

Apologies if you are bothered my my posts -- I was and am trying to be fully transparent about solving for what I think is a need in the market and brainstorming with others, that enjoy doing so, as to how this could be solved from a business perspective, if at all.

There is another player in the market that does something similar and has been a source as to how I have been trying to think about this for the roo. www.outdoorsgeek.com/index.cfm?Somehow they are making it do-able at other festivals and are requiring a lot more work with respecting to renting from their clients.

In general, I do plan on becoming more involved within InfoRoo -- this is simply my first time on the forum, and no, I'm not a festival amateur by any means.

I understand you don't like the idea -- that's fine. I'm sure a lot of people don't, but I don't think it's a reason to be condescending.