Sunday May 9, 2010, 4:41 pm
So America flubs it yet again...how many times does this make? I don't have enough fingers and toes to count with. We spend billions of dollars every day on a variety of things we don't need!! No wonder we're so screwed up!! Thnx *C* !!

Sunday May 9, 2010, 4:46 pm
Give it a break, Carole. Every time a Muslim attacks innocent civilians (or tries to), you try to lay the blame on Israel. It's getting old. If we're going to lay the blame on the people who influenced those who acted, then we'd better blame the world for what Israel did, because Jews wouldn't need a homeland if they hadn't been so persecuted, while the world allowed it to happen. And we can blame the English and Americans for the rise of the Nazis, since if Germany hadn't been doing so poorly financially after WWI, then the Nazi movement probably wouldn't have caught on. Why we could do this for hours, no years, coudln't we.

I found the post to be quite lucid. It raised several questions which people should consider; and I've heard them raised before.

We, as a people, need to take a discerning look at information offered -- and point out the loopholes for those who may not have caught them; or otherwise, become puppets of an already-controlled media and corporate government.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 4:59 pm
I'm not asking you to be "pro-Israel," Carole, but you're always making excuses for these murderers and would-be murderers.

I did read it. I did make my own decision and I still think that a murderer is a murderer and is not forced into his actions by something that happens thousands of miles away. There are alternatives, whether it's working for the election of a a candidate who represents your beliefs, working for an NGO, or trying to convince people peacefully with words. There is a better way. Murder is not it.

For a fact, I restrain myself from trying to lead others' opinions. I do have some very strong feelings about certain subjects (such as the hypocrisy of war for peace); but I have never been one to post lopsided "hate" material (and anyone who knows me would know that).

If you want to make an accusation such as that Chana: Prove it -- or retract it!

Sunday May 9, 2010, 5:28 pm
All i'll say on this matter is that the fourth branch of government has been corrupted over the past few decades.

Information is being kept away from people. Specifically by whom, I can't be sure. But it happens. Regularly.

For instance, nowadays we're often treated to nothing but stories about entertainers, sports figures, Teabaggers or other nonconsequential matters while we still have conflicts going on in Afghanistan and Iraq, and information about other countries--such as Israel and Iran--seem one-sided.

Also, newspaper reporting--especially that of investigative journalism--has gone steadily downhill for maybe 20-30 years. Seriousness, truth and quality have been traded off for sensationalism, ratings and money.

Information is definitely being kept away, either because people don't want to hear it (unless it affects them), or because the owners of the media outlets have reasons to make it so. Deregulation of media and near-monopolization make it difficult for the press--print, video or electronic--to be free.

I had my TV turned off years ago, because there was a distressing sameness no matter where I looked. If one disregarded FOX News' political slant--and that of other stations--the sameness extended there as well.

People are being somatized, lulled into complacency. They're becoming even more sheeplike. You cannot be an informed citizenry under these conditions.

The overwhelming majority of my news is from the net, now, because the available sources are infinitely more diverse. I look for alternative sources, official sources, antiestablishment sources, and foreign sources.

When one is able to access similar details in similar stories from several different countries--and those countries may not be allies or friends--one can start to see that what they're saying may be the truth. And what may or may not be kept from the American people.

Often foreign press has reported on matters that were never a part of the American media. This has been so at least since the rise of the internet, and I suspect it always has been so.

I've found the best source of foreign internet news worldwide--radio, print, video--is ABYZ News. They also provide news in different languages.

http://www.abyznewslinks.com/

The only problem with internet media is that, unless you save a copy of a story, you can't guarantee it'll be there next time you look. Media outlets and governments--INCLUDING OUR OWN--have altered, deleted or hidden stories and information, when it was in their best interest to do so. This has been going on for years now.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 5:47 pm
Actually, Carole, if you read my post, you would see that I did back up what I said.

I never made any assumptions about your experiences, friends, or feelings about the Holocaust - only about your repeated posts that lay the blame for terrorism at Israel's door. That excuses terrorism and makes excuses for murderers - and here we are back where we started.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 5:56 pm
You and I both know that you have, Carole, but I am not going to spend my Sunday evening going through thousands of old posts. You and Kit would have some good arguments about this. Perhaps if Kit were around, she would feel like putting in hours reading your old repetitive posts, but I don't.

If you want to feel that it's a victory for you that I don't want to spend my evening this way, be my guest. Whatever rocks your boat, sweetie.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 6:04 pm
We can all agree on a few things: the state of journalism in the world today sucks, the blame game is one of those open ended games(like Monopoly when you bent the rules, make loans and printed extra money) which could go on for days and days until everyone just gets tired and quits, and we are ALL deeply concerned about the level of violence being shown and the hate rhetoric being expressed on all sides. Our schools do a poor job teaching history, which is essential in understanding our world. What passes for journalism today is quick to exploit any gaps in education. The best and most responsible thing we can do is try very hard to understand every side of an issue--not necessarily agree with it, just be as well informed as possible and try to understand how the Hell things got this bad. We can't ever fix them if we don't.

And yes, I know we can't resolve all conflicts or fix everything that's broken, but without real understanding we won't be able to fix anything.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 6:12 pm
Deborah, the state of journalism has always sucked. Back in the 60s, when I was active in civil rights and the anti-war movement, I remember we were always upset at how lopsided the news reports were - including estimates of crowds, bias, etc. That's never changed.

History as taught in school has also always been lopsided - either told by the winners to make their side look good or according to ideas/causes that are fashionable. I think we'd be naive to think it would ever be otherwise.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 6:27 pm
Actually, Carole, it's care2 who decides where the line is and who crosses it.

I didn't say it was necessarily an article that was submitted by you. It may have been or it may have just been some you noted. There have been a lot of those.

As for this article, let me just say that I do not believe everything I read in the papers - or online - or even most of it. People who do are naive. Nonetheless, the fact that what we read is not necessarily accurate does not mean that none of it is accurate.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 6:28 pm
Einstein said that, if God speaks any language, it must be math. This article is a great example of the game theory, linking causes and consequences in a different manner. If the starting claim is possible, logic will lead to unmistakable conclusion. It's the game theory, remember!

Now, this article raises serious questions. Do you dare to follow the logic, even when it is disturbing? Will you reject it entirely and snap?

Remarkable! I'm not surprised. This is what every American should read and learn. I see Chana here spewing off her venom of ignorance. That is expected from one who should be deported to Israel since she so loves these expansionists and murderers.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 7:32 pm
Interesting article *C* - and I always question why "terrorists" appear just when Someone needs them to make a case for more funding, or Not getting rid of nuclear warheads, etc. I don't trust any government, anywhere, any more. After the Bu$h League I had hoped America would come to it's senses - instead we've kept on keeping on.. not Enough has changed for the Good. I Don't Believe there will be "another" terrorist attack, because I think the first one was a Bu$h League & assorted co-conspirator's plan. NO other attacks have happened here, some really amateur attempts have not worked - so either "the best & brightest terrorists" All died on Sept. 11 - or they're still be payed to talk about it & warn Obama about those Foreign evil doers!;) I think it's the latter. It doesn't really matter to America what Israel wants, we have enough Bu$h Leaguers running around buying friends & killing enemies as They see fit. The Mainstream Media has been USELESS since Walter Cronkite quit (Dan Rather WAS okay, but Bu$h fixed him too!;)..

Sunday May 9, 2010, 7:44 pm
Sadly Yvonne the USA is under attack all the time, it just the people that have NO CLUE.

It will never become a FACT until there is another "BIG BANG" that makes people aware of what is going on here.

The USA has helped out so many countries, sadly, once we stick our foot in the mud we are actually KILLED for doing it. (TOTALLY)

Personally, I am a firm believer in being AWARE, and DO NOT LIVE YOUR LIFE UNDER A ROCK, but, sadly most of the USA thinks that all is well and we are totally taken care of, because we pay taxes for protection up the WAZOO!

Since I am older I do remember the situation with CUBA, OMG...if children had to live with the fear that I went through at a young age they would all want total protection!

Sunday May 9, 2010, 7:45 pm
LOL! Exactly *C*!:) Certain people shouldn't make claims Without Supporting them - especially when they have SO much time to waste telling what they Think they know .."Do not tell fish stories where the people know you; but particularly, don't tell them where they know the fish." - Mark Twain, American author.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 7:55 pm
Marilyn, we must have been trying to post at the same time. I am old enough to remember duck under your desk Nuclear drills - what bull! I'm saying it is the FBI & CIA's JOB to Prevent attacks - NOT mine. I Don't believe there will be a Foriegn Attack, unless some maniac gets access to an ICBM - which would either be in Russia or China.. I live in the Mid-West, so yeah, I'm NOT scared too death & don't intend to be. I've got enough Real problems to deal with, I don't Need FAUX News to tell me I'll be killed in my sleep by Muslims - Won't Happen!

Sunday May 9, 2010, 8:18 pm
Most of these comments are between you and Chana. I think in a way Chana has a point. George Bush went to Iraq and said there were weapons of mass destructions and asked for permission to finish his job which he didn't get. So his son tried with the start of the Gulf War,

Why did he go only to Iraq? and why is Israel allowed to keep it's New Clear weapons. Why were the Israely who really did 911 and not other terrorists, allowed to leave America by the back door and they arrested a Muslim who had nothing to do with 911 whatsoever?

It was all staged and it was only found out by a phonecall which said the identity of the terrorist and that one of the Tunnels would be blown up. The Americans only caught the Israely by accident because they decided to close ALL the tunnels and came upon 2 vans belonging to an Israely firm, one packed with explosives set to go off during peak hour and the other one was there to pick up the driver and their boss of the van with explosives.

It says in this article that Israel attacked an American Naval Ship and killed people and wounded over a hundred. Why didn't America not react on that? It comes over to me that Israel can get away with a lot, but not the Muslims.

I'm not Anti-Israel but I'm not anti-Iraq either. It was Bush who got my sons involved in the Gulf war and I'll never forgive him for that. But the Jews have always been a wandering people even in the Bible and we mustn't forget that either. God gave them a country and Jesus was born in Bethlehem according to the Bible. But from the start we've been taught to love others as we love oneself. That doesn't seem to happen in the Middle East.

To be fair to the Muslims I believe someone ought to go to Israel and look for weapons of Mass Destruction and get rid of them Just like they tried to do with Iraq. To me that would only be fair.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 8:33 pm
Chana, I don't know you nor do I care too, as you are obviously one of those people who thinks Israel is "entitled" to do as they please, and for that reason alone the Muslim empire is pi**ed off with them and all their friends. As a Canadian I do not appreciate my tax dollars going to the people that my "sweet Uncle" died to free so that they can drive others from their heritage home.. Shame on you for thinking Israel is "entitled" to kill and maim, and steal land as they please.
Thank you *C* you always make us think [the ones who can't won't]

Sunday May 9, 2010, 8:46 pm
People sure make a lot of assumptions around here, Blacktiger. Never have I said or intimated that Israel is entitled. If you had read my posts over the past year or so, you would see that I do not agree with all that Israel does. Instead, you make assumptions about me that are not based in fact.

Sunday May 9, 2010, 9:33 pm
Here is a read to add to (one side) of the debate ...
http://criminalstate.com/tag/mathilde-krim/

and a few thoughts that may inspire some thinking

How could/can Israel survive both short term and long term without the support of the USA?

Is it not reality that the US government is under control and management of the lobbyists - especially those who have the big money?

What happens if pro-Israel interests are not satisfied among these lobbyists?

Is US foreign policy over the pas 62 years more likely to be the wishes of pro or con Israel lobbyists?

How could both Britain and the USA believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction - so definitely - that both leaders were prepared to take their countries to war - where did that intelligence come from?

Which country in the world today is most capable of carrying out any clandestine activity in the countries of it's enemies and friends?

If there were cover-ups is it more likely to be brought about by pro or con Israeli influence?

Who are the pro Israeli lobbyists - who are the con Israeli lobbyists - do we know, and if not, why not?

Ultimately by analyzing the ingredients one can make a fair assessment of the likely outcome!

Sunday May 9, 2010, 9:52 pm
Ok, I plodded thru this unbearably long opinion piece, and my first thought was “WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!” And I continued to read and take notes.

Then I read all the comments on this thread, and my reaction is still WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

>>1967: In June, Zionists mounted a Six-Day land grab designed to appear defensive. That provocation ensured the region-wide hostility that remains an ongoing catalyst for conflicts and hostilities in the Middle East.

Israel was attacked, not by its’ own, but by its’ enemies.

>>The botched Manhattan incident is hauntingly similar to the “Christmas Day Bomber.” That similarly botched event is widely ridiculed as “The Crotch Bomber” by those aware of the facts confirming that “terrorist” event was an Israeli operation reliant on a Muslim “patsy.”

“… by those aware of the facts confirming that “terrorist” event was an Israeli operation reliant on a Muslim “patsy.” ??? CONFIRMING an Israeli operation? BullSh*t!

>>Only with a close perusal of The Times report could a reader uncover the concession that the fertilizer used by this latest Evil Doer was non-explosive.

More BullSh*t! I heard about the low-grade fertilizer in a press conference early on.

>>Game Theory and the Restoration of National Security
>>Only after the Fizzler operation did a likely motivation for its timing come into focus. On May 5th, four days after the incident, the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council voiced support for making the entire Middle East a nuclear-free zone.
>>That would mean scrapping nuclear weapons in the hands of Zionists—or what the Joint Chiefs called Jewish “fanatics” who seek to dominate the Muslim-dominant Middle East.

That is purely anti-Jewish, anti-Israel rhetoric.

>>When your numbers are few but your ambitions vast (i.e., fanatical), what choice do you have but to induce another nation to wage your wars? How else could Zionists proceed but by befriending the nation they intended to betray?
>>How could they defraud us without first befriending us? What better force-multiplier for Zionists to pursue their ambitious goals than to nurture at the close of WWII a “special relationship” with a nuclear-armed superpower?

Israel intends to betray the USA? What a STUPID thing to say. We provide them with what they have, and WE HAVE A LOT MORE OF IT. Israel has an unbeatable military, but only against those who seek to destroy her.
>>With peace negotiations downgraded to “proximity talks,” Israeli officials resumed their taunts by insisting on a Palestinian “incitement index” demanding that Palestinians stop anti-Israel incitement and promote education toward peace.

>>Such Israeli conduct only further underscores their confidence that no one will hold them accountable, especially the U.S.

That is said like it’s a bad thing. Wow, Israel want the Palestinians to stop promoting hate in their schools, and start promoting peace. What an awful thing to demand before making more peace agreements.

>>The Last Birthday?
>>May 14th marks the 62nd anniversary of Harry Truman’s fateful two-sentence statement extending to this extremist enclave U.S. recognition as a legitimate state.
>>The goals of Zionist fanatics remain unchanged. The only change is this: an informed public is beginning to grasp the murderous measures to which Israel and its supporters will resort to attain those goals.
>>We now have a lengthy history to prove it. Transparency will be the death knell of Zionism. The only question is this: at what additional cost in human suffering?

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

>>As those most clearly responsible for enabling this treachery, we Americans must concede our central role. That role obliges us to ensure a rapid closure to this anguished chapter in human history.
>>Americans must lead an initiative to withdraw recognition, impose a democratic one-state solution and transform Jerusalem into an international city protected under U.N. auspices.
>>Most critically, Israel’s nuclear arsenal must be secured consistent with decades of experience confirming that Zionists pose the world’s greatest threat to nuclear proliferation

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! Israel is a state unto itself, and the rest of the middle east has never accepted that fact. As long as others start wars against them, in which ISRAEL WINS and gains land in the process, people will always say that Israel cheated somehow, and force them to give back the land. And Israel doesn’t have any reason to use nuclear weapons unless THEY are threatened. They have never threatened anyone who hasn’t already threatened them. They are not the ones to be feared.

Agnes H said:

"Why were the Israely who really did 911 and not other terrorists, allowed to leave America by the back door and they arrested a Muslim who had nothing to do with 911 whatsoever?"

"To be fair to the Muslims I believe someone ought to go to Israel and look for weapons of Mass Destruction and get rid of them Just like they tried to do with Iraq. To me that would only be fair."

1st Agnes, it would only be fair if Israel was threatening to wipe another nation off the face of the planet.
2nd, Am I understanding you correctly? You believe that Israel is behind 9/11?
Who else believes that?

Is everyone ignoring all the unprovoked attacks made on Israel? Is everyone ignoring the peace-time attacks made against israel? Is everyone ignoring all the land that Israel gained thru war, but gave back for peace? Sheesh. I don't approve of everything that Israel has done since statehood, and atrocities have been committed from ALL sides, but the crazy bastard who wrote this piece doesn't want you to think about the fact that there is always more than one VALID side to every story.

Why would any Israel-loving person put this out there? It seems to me it's only to stir the pot of hatred, as if there isn't enough already. Sorry Carole, but i'm in total disagreement with intentionally spreading this CRAP.

Monday May 10, 2010, 12:04 am
I have read this article a few times and am still left wondering what the point of it is. Is it promoting more conspiracy theories? I am not sure and not sure why I am not sure. Have to say you have stumped me with this one Carole.

It is your American media that is corrupted though I am sure there are more agencies in the world that are as well. However outside of America other media in the world is still reporting news and truth. A Scottish newspaper broke the story of Obama sending a bunch of bunker busting bombs through England to where they wondered? The only country in the world with a need for such weapons is Israel if they are to be successful in their attempt to destroy Iran's nuclear abilities. So there is truth in media - just not in America. Have to wonder why they do not want you to know what is really happening. Maybe because you will vote in November to put a stop to the road you are now traveling if you did know? Israel will go after Iran and will be successful because of assistance from America. For the good or the bad of it there it is. The truth of what is coming.

Blacktiger, I have gotten to know Chana during my time here at Care 2 and your assessment of her is dead wrong. It is not fair for you to judge someone when you do not know them. In my many conversations with Chana (and we often disagree) she has never once suggested that Israel is a country that should be automatically entitled to anything for any reason. However in fairness to you we do both support Israel's right to exist. However we also support Palestines right as well. Just not at the expense of each other so there is a question as to what kind of bridge must be built to end the conflict over there. Canada also supports Israel so it interesting to find another Canadian that sounds so hateful towards Israel. We are all entitled to our beliefs and I respect yours.

There will never be peace in Palestine as long as the likes of Hamas - who is financed heavily by Iran btw - is at the helm. It would not serve the radicals of the Muslim faith to have such a peace take place. How would that benefit them? The fact is it would not as they need a sore to be kept festering in order to hate the west and all we stand for. So they can never allow a peace to exist between Palestine and Israel. They use Palestine as a means to their own ends and have no regard for the lives of their own people. They use the people of Palestine as sacrificial lambs to feed the hatred. I can think of no radical religion more evil than one who have so little regard for the people.

Yvonne, I actually saw the Duck and Cover cartoon from the fifties they used to show us in school on the Turner Channel just yesterday! What a crock is right! Had us convinced if we cowered under our desks while a nuclear bomb went off we might be safe! It was terrible in the fifties, horrendous in the sixties but if Iran goes nuclear the worst is yet to come. Lots of interesting stuff now being released about what actually happened during the Cuban missile crisis. Not what I thought at all but that is another subject.

So Carole, as always you leave me thinking about many things. I shall re-read this article to try and wrap my brain around it. You do find the most interesting, thought provoking things to post. Thank you for this!

Monday May 10, 2010, 12:41 am
We are so manipulated by the engines of propaganda that it is difficult to be informed and objective in a sea of obfuscation and slanted rhetoric. What is clear is the polarisation of some people's views into on the one hand sacred cow view of Israel, whereby that particular sacred cow may defecate at will on what ever path she takes. On the other hand there those that choose to envision an equally sacred cow of oppression and displacement from entirely the opposite perspective where all their ills stem from the very existence of Israel. I suspect the truth of the matter is that none or perhaps very few with the slightest vested interest in either perspective are actually capable of reconciling their views with those of the other side. Something like the engineering conundrum of welding different metals together which usually involves the introduction of some third party means of bridging the devide before forming a satisfactory amalgam. The posts if read at face value illustrate this problem in one of black and white views held by a large proportion of the posters, demonstrating almost infinite intractability. Indeed comparisons with say the oppressive heavy handed actions of the Israelis during operation cast lead with the actions of the evil Nazi oppressors of the current Israeli populations ancestors earnt me the rebuke of be anti-semitic which to me was both insulting and unfare. On the other hand my criticism of the activities of Hamas and the support of their activities against Isreal by those that would use this and many other conflicts as a surrogate war against America and the west in general, earnt me the equally offensive, in this context, sobriquet of "Jew Lover", which brings me neatly round in a circle to the crux of the matter that unless the outside parties stop fanning the flames and pouring petrol on the fire this conflict will fester for another 2,000 years! It will take a bold politician to knock the participants heads together let alone drum any sense into either before there is resolution!

Monday May 10, 2010, 12:55 am
Regarding the timing or motivation of the Times Square bomber is it not conceivable that he acted on his own initiative out of a sense of loyalty personal fanaticism etc, rather than being manipulated by the the CIA, Mossad, MI5/6, Iran, Al Kieda or whoever, perhaps he had a bum meal in that restaurant or they overcharged him!

Monday May 10, 2010, 2:12 am
AW Geez not yet another argument tying up the thread. Seems it is contagious wonder why!

Money is power and power is control.

There is a group of people who want to take control of this planet. They want to be the sole law who say what is and what isn't and they want you to help them do it. They want to take your money, your intellect, freedoms and actually want yoy to make their job easier and want you to volunteer to do this.

Now, how they get that money and control is by controlling the resources, food and water supply, oil, gas, etc., anything that people need for their survival.

Bush family, Rockefeller and her jolly old highass etc., funded Hitler and Psychiatry to commit atrocities on human beings in World War 11. While Jews were gassed and had their finger nails pulled out amonst other travesties too ugly to mention. They made money at every man, woman and childs expense.

They have over the years recruited either by war, bribe, blackmail/threat or voluntarily at least 250 from different countries to support their efforts and continue their mayhem while they sit in amusement watching people individualize from their own families, groups, constitutions and countries for the sole reason united means strong groups cannot be taken easily.

Every country and every man woman and child on this planet has been affected by this group in some form or another and it continues. They keep poor countries down and enforce slave labor. They steal oil, uranium, gold, diamonds, opium and destroy crops and seafood. Pollute the air and water supply and allow toxins in your foods. 9/11 is a proven inside job and being that it was Rockefellers building one only has to open his eyes, the bailouts went straight into their pockets while countries collapsed and they now prove to control the world's monetary system.

They keep people down by bad and or lack of education, keeping you sick, tighten your freedoms, ensure you can not make a buck, a controlled media all over the world to confuse and drugged and subdued legal and illegal.

They keep themselves busy by instigating wars and or ensuring that wars persist. Meaning Israel and Palastine may very well have settled their differences long ago had there not been someone in the background egging them on. Ireland lhas been a prime example of Englands influence and playing both sides. They ensure chaos and havoc throughout and take away hope and a willingness to fight.

They keep you busy with new laws ensuring a Police State, the IRS, the "not supposed to work" welfare systems, perpetuating racism issues, education issues, drug issues, environmental issues, gay rights, religious extremism, abortion issues and gun control to name but a few. They revel in internal animosities and upset and you can almost guarantee that extremists have been bought and paid for since it is a tactic often used. Used to get you to get your back up and demand the rights of others be taken leading toyour own rights demise..
They pride themselves as they control both sides of the political agenda and guarantee that no one who is not with them will get in or they will suffer the same ill fate of the Kennedy family.

So when you get into this Israel, Palasinain, Muslim thing beware and aware these so called terrorists who happen to be the target of the masses animosity and hatred are victims of the loss of human rights. Guilty before a fair and proven without doubt, full blown evidence, non sensationalized lying media trial which will never happen!

No one said or guaranteed there never would be another Hiltler and we never made sure that there wasn't one in power But, before you guys spit in each others faces take a look, a good look at what you are being fed and why!

You can either be a victim or do something about it. You can blame it all on someone else but the lie will still persist. The only terroists around here are the elite who think that they can make you into slaves and judging by some of these comments they are doing a darn good job! .

Now, if you will go please and check this out - http://www.care2.com/news/member/172723957/1489199 maybe you will learn something.

Monday May 10, 2010, 2:29 am
Chana. Don't waste a second of your precious time by trying to refute this total nonsense from a blatantly anti-Israel hate site. I wonder why these people never post articles from reputable sources.
This Jihadist nut has already confessed to having received terror training in Pakistan during his THIRTEEN visits there. No amount of spin is going to alter that fact.
Remember the old adage: " where ignorance is bliss tis folly to be wise."
Green star on its way Chana for having the patience to be as polite as you are to conspiratorial crack-pots.

Ad hominem argument is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or attacking the person who proposed the argument (personal attack) in an attempt to discredit the argument.
It is also used when an opponent is unable to find fault with an argument, yet for various reasons, the opponent disagrees with it.

I'm also beginning to wonder how many people actually read the article because, if you did, you'd know that the piece was intended to raise questions about the "official" story presented to the public. The author, himself, has stated why he he's uncomfortable with what the public is being told.

Monday May 10, 2010, 3:50 am
I thought this post was supposed to be about a doofus in Times Square that thought that Miracle-Grow would explode, but the thread is nothing but a waste of tome comprising endlwss personal arguments from a couple of windbags with too much time on their hands.

Monday May 10, 2010, 4:52 am
Terry B., you are right about the article headlining itself about the doofus in Times Square. The article totaly off-subject. I don't want to open another can of worms but I just have to speak out. This article is nothing more than theory and conjecture!
After 1948, Israel was more or less shunned by all except Jews in America and a few other countries. Jewish Military Officers would fly to those countries to speak in front of Zionist groups to raise funds for weapons because they were facing blockades by Egypt and the Arab nations. The Suez Canal was effectively being blocked!
JFK promised them weapons. He was assassinated. Johnson hemmed and hawed about following through.. France and West Germany were going to send them inferior USED weaponry but were being blocked from doing so by world opinion (USSR in the UN threatening vetoes).
It was around this time that Golda Meir (an American born Jew and Zionist) was actually given her Prime duty as Secretary of State of Israel. She was allowed by the Israeli Powers That Be to enter talks with World Leaders and not relegated to some back room. She was instrumental in securing arms.
The Egyptian and Arab Armies were poised for attack in the Sinai. Israel, against all foreign advice made a pre-emptive dawn strike in the Sinai. They were the definitive winners and the Suez Canal was opened.
The Israelis were afraid of reprisals from the Soviet Union who was supplying NEW and superior planes, tanks and weaponry to the Egyptian and Arab armies.
Now who controls what's going on in this Zionist War?
I quit reading the article after reading the mention of the war in 1967.
These are Historical facts, not theory or conjecture! And NO! I am not Jewish! I admire them as a people for their industry and hard-headedness. They have needed both to survive. Look ALLl over the world and then tell me who else has taken deserts and built them int lush farmland and who else has so steadfast in defending their HOMELAND? NO ONE! And yes, it is THEIR HOMELAND!
Okay, I'm done. Peace to ALL!

Monday May 10, 2010, 5:31 am
Hey, Terry, good suggestion. As a matter of fact, I was kind to a cat in the midst of all of this, rescuing a stray and finding her a forever home. A much better use of my time.

The bungled Times Square bombing plot has actually helped the Taliban gain wide scale publicity which has resulted in more and more youngsters like Faisal Shahzad wanting to join the 'jihad' (holy war) against the west, a top Afghan Taliban leader has said.

"We've got more publicity from this one failed bombing in New York than from more than 100 bombings in Afghanistan," a report in the Newsweek magazine quoted the high-ranking Taliban commander, as saying.

The report, however, didn't disclose the name of the Taliban commander.

He claimed that there are many foreign youngsters like Shahzad, the naturalised American citizen of Pakistan origin who is accused of plotting the Times Square bombing, who send e-mails seeking to join the terror outfit.

"With all this new technology, it's not difficult to recruit people in the West. It's hard to contact Al Qaeda. But it's very easy to get in touch with the Pakistani Taliban," the Daily News quoted Taliban commander, as adding in the report.

The Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) has denied any role in the failed bombing plot, but has praised Shahzad's 'noble' work.

However, US agencies are probing the possibility of the TTP and other banned terror group such as the Jaish-e-Muhammed (JeM) financing and helping Shahzad in getting trained in bomb making. (ANI)

Maybe we can't believe newspapers in other countries, either, of course. Maybe we can't believe anything.

As for not knowing who to trust, that's for sure. I usually check out different sources on any issue and do not automatically believe ALL of what any of them say.

It's unfortunate that Americans have been misled and lied to so many times that they do not feel they can trust the government's take on any situation any more. (Gitmo immediately comes to mind.) And the mainstream media has become nothing more than a propaganda mouthpiece.

Like many people, I search for truth from alternative sources with a track record for publishing information omitted from general circulation.

For example, I Googled "Times Square bomber." There are about 41,500,000 results. What's even more interesting is how many different theories were promoted (sometimes by the same source). Initially, the general consensus was that he acted alone . . . but now, the White House says the Pakistani Taliban is behind it.

Obviously, there already are several theories. In fact, another one is that mainstream media may have triggered the incident: American Thinker Blog: Did "left-wing media" trigger the Times ...
May 10, 2010 ... Was would-be Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad "radicalized" by the incessant drumbeat of hatred toward George W. Bush by CBS, ABC, NBC, ...

Monday May 10, 2010, 6:31 am
Eric Holder was on TV yester Am and said that the jihadists were seeking Naturalised citizens to recruit in their "War on the Infidels". Their reasoning is that citizens do not raise the red flags and they can move around more easily without being suspect. Scary thought!
How they despise us!
Bring our troops home now. Stop this endless war! You are not going to get Osamam Bin Laden even if he is still alive!

Next time, you should post that you support tyranny, deception, apartheid and terrorism so that the NaZionist lovers will "approve" of you and your post. It's really pathetic that these ignorant people attack others if Israel is criticized. The sad thing is they hide behind the "I don't approve of many things Israel does.." and use as a Modus operandi - of deception!

The whole world must be wrong and the Zionists - who represents 0.001 of the world’s population - must be "right!"

That's OK though Carole. When you are attacked by the ignorant, know that YOU ARE on the right path and onto something called: The Truth!

Ya know . . . It wasn't that long ago (2-3 years) when I was relatively new to Care2 and started frequenting the News Network.

At that time, there was a small group of activists who were pro-Palestinian and made several attempts to post their side of the issue. Invariably, their stories were removed; they were sometimes suspended; and they were branded as "anti-Semitic" and hate mongers. (Having more than a few of them on my friends list, and not ever recalling them promoting an anti-Jewish agenda, I found that hard to believe.)

But, I do recall thinking: "Why is it o.k. to criticize my own government, and several other countries, but taboo to question Israel?"

Monday May 10, 2010, 8:13 am
Before I jump off this article totally, did want to respond to your last comment Carola...people get away with critizing the United States easily because of way the USA is, sadly when we get talking about another country everyone's hair goes up in flames and people want to jump down each other throats!

Went through all of the comments again....just wanted to say thanks Just C for getting this out there, Northern your insight and may all of you have a terrific week!!!

The way I saw it, Marilyn, the author of the post is pointing out certain questionable coincidences that seem to link back to Israel, and is asking inquiring minds to consider the possibility that it's more than just accidental.

It may turn out to be true . . . and then, it may not (much like all theories). However, I fail to see where merely posing the question should be an indictment.

Monday May 10, 2010, 9:48 am
Very interesting stuff sparking very interesting questions for debate. Thanks, once again, friend Carole. BTW, it is always wise to question authority, any authority, including that of other countries. We are all, unfortunately, all too human. Meaning, fallible.

Monday May 10, 2010, 11:13 am
I know exactly what you mean about 'just arriving at Care 2' Carole! I was pretty confused for the most part. Saw such hatred between Americans it stunned me! I still do not understand why differing views have to lead to hate and personal attacks. It is not constructive at all and we learn nothing from each other when this starts.

I think why I found this article so confusing is because it was meant to be. It is a projection of food for thought. Another road to consider as it were. If you have not read the links Sue provided it is worth a read. BTW that video you posted was great. Thanks Carole!

Monday May 10, 2010, 12:46 pm
JUST, Thanks, The finding are still underway here and the US media announced many news over there however I will file story here in Care2 very soon, if he did he should be punished and should not be done again by anyone actually it is fact people of Pakistan don't like US Government policies even hate US foreign policy but they don't hate citizens of US, yes some feeling about US attacks on Muslims areas like North Waziristan that is tribal area and not directally under control of Pakistan since creation of Pakistan there Drone attacks still going on and many innocent people are dying there on daily basis. I am not favour of terrorism and always regretted this kind of act, but those people who are living there not ready to accept attack on them. This is reality but not recommended by people of Pakistan or Government of pakistan, besides when pakistani troops attacked in Waziristan in result terrorists came here in different cities and many suicide blasts here so many innocent people had died which is sad if they are true Muslim then why they attacked their own people and who is funding them and the weapons they have unbelieveable most modern and we know the brand or mark of these weapons. once again thank you for this article.

Monday May 10, 2010, 4:46 pm
If my earlier input came across as a personal attack against anyone here, I apologize. It was not meant that way. I AM upset that this OPINION piece is being spread around, since it CLEARLY contains the opinions of the author, in the guise of fact. But my objection to you posting it, Carole, is not meant as a personal attack. It is meant as an expression of MY personal opinion.

It's clear that I did read the article, and my take on it is that the author is expressing his own beliefs, and using the mighty pen to do as much damage as possible.

Israel HAS made some bad decisions, but to blame Israel for all the problems between them and the Palestinians is just stupid. The Palestinians have never behaved like angels. But here I go, falling right into the trap of writing about what the author WROTE, instead of focusing on the title of his article.

The title is completely misleading to what is IN the article. In fact, this article has NOTHING to do with the "fizzler." It was just a ruse to draw people in, who are interested in learning more about him, and then just using the title as an intro to the authors’ rantings against Israel.

I had seen this C2NN story and decided to ignore it, since I'm getting a lot of info about him from other sources. But someone alerted me to some discontent between two members here that I happen to like. So, I checked it out. I don't like it when my friends fight, and I was curious to know why.

The author makes statements of fact that aren’t fact at all. This is clearly an opinion piece, and the author BELIEVES his opinions. This is not a piece designed to offer possible alternatives. It is a piece designed to spread as much hate, and anger as many people as possible. Possibly the reason for that is to keep our attention on each other in fighting mode as a distraction to other realities. But I don’t think this particular article is important enough to succeed in that. So ultimately, it’s just a piece of one-sided garbage that is designed to express hate.

I can't say I understand why you feel the author is presenting this as fact when almost everything he said was expressed in the form of a "what if" question. That, alone, should tell you that it's strictly conjecture.

In fact, SEVERAL times here it has been stated that this is the author's "theory;" and it has also been stated that he posed some intriguing questions.

How on earth you were still under the impression that he was misleading the readers is inconceivable! If you don't agree with the dots he's connecting, that's one thing . . . but to call it a hate piece because several dots connect to Israel is ludicrous!

Monday May 10, 2010, 6:38 pm
Just Carole wrote:
I can't say I understand why you feel the author is presenting this as fact when almost everything he said was expressed in the form of a "what if" question. That, alone, should tell you that it's strictly conjecture.
~~~~~~
I've read the article a couple of times, and actually posted the same story on another forum.

The responses are similar. People are very defensive or supportive, they often internalize the story as representing you the poster's beliefs without question. They either immediately assume the story is just another far flung anti-American fantasy rather than look at the possibilities presented as intended to provoke discussion to combine with information culled from other sources before arriving at any deductive conclusions.

In my view in some cases it has to do with what the information implies for Israel, and that in itself is enough to either dismiss, deride, or otherwise claim the work is by divine fiat, a hate piece rather than a thought provoking article. For others, this piece offends their sense of Patriotism, of Americana, or daring to take it one step forward in looking at the possibilities of what may really be behind the curtain between Pakistan and US foreign policy. Not to mention, the way Middle Easterners are demonized in the Media.

Most of the time, one has to defend the story on the basis that it was posted for the purpose of provoking discussion and does not mean you buy the theory lock stock and barrel.

I commend you for handing the issues in a way you and only you know how --with grace and steadfastness while standing tuff in the midst of the flames.

I disagree with your assessment of what the authors’ intent is. His method of putting his ideas in the form of a question is simply his way of getting the READER to think. But his ideas of what the answers are, are already evident.

However, even if it’s reasonable for the author to redirect the blame of the “fizzler” away from his clear ties to the Taliban, redirecting them to Israel is still, in my opinion, even if you disagree, hateful.

The author did NOT present clear ties to Israel, and much of his article was a history of HIS OPINION of the wrongs Israel did to Palestinians.

This article is not pointing out that Israel is behind the NY attack. It’s pointing out how bad Israel is.

As I said, I did not mean for my post to be a personal attack against you (more so against the author). And I am sorry if you took it that way, but it seems that we might have to agree to disagree on the motive of the author.

And, I wrote this in response to your personal msg to me, but it seems that, in light of the 2 public posts, my response belongs here instead.

I never said the author was misleading the readers.

You know, I presented my opinion that this author is presenting hate, and you call me ludicrous. All it took was for me to go back to the article, click on Jeff Gates’ name, and click on his website to see how much he hates Israel.

Recent Articles
Pakistan the Evil Doer and the Times Square Fizzler
Is Pakistan the Next Evil Doer?
What’s Next from Israel: Entropy or Outrage?
Dual Loyalty Revisited
When Will Israel Attack the U.S. — Again?
Can the U.S. Beat Israel at their Game?
Our Commander-in-Chief Needs Our Support
Was Israel Ever Legitimate?
Anti-Semitism – What is it?
Zionism Unmasked

Recent Comments
Americans — Are you with Gen. Petraeus and Adm. Mullen or with Israel ? ? | Opinion Maker on Guilt By Association
“Are you with Gen. Petraeus and Adm. Mullen or with Israel ?” | Same Old Change on Guilt By Association
darethefuture.com » Will we be responsible, if this happens … ? on Guilt By Association
Americans: Are You With Gen. Petraeus And Adm. Mullen Or With Israel ? on Guilt By Association
Comprehending Israel’s Bigger Picture | Intifada Palestine on Guilt By Association
Americans — Are you with Gen. Petraeus and Adm. Mullen or with Israel ? ” | Intifada Palestine on Guilt By Association
Rehmat on Anti-Semitism – What is it?
Mihail on Anti-Semitism – What is it?

Now, if anyone here wants to defend him and claim that he doesn’t hate Israel, have at it. But Carole, now that we know that you think it's ludicrous that I think of this article as a hate piece, I have to ask you, did you even look at his website before posting this story?

That is the LAST concession I will make to your continuing posts trying to take this submission off topic and turn what should have been an intelligent discussion of the questions raised and, instead, turn this into more DRAMA.

Do a C2NN search on the word "Israel," then consider the posters. Not everyone who disagrees with Israel onthe crisis in Gaza (including Amnesty Int'l and the majority of human rights organizations) are anti-Semitic!

Monday May 10, 2010, 7:31 pm
OMG, you've gone way overboard with this thing. I'm not trying to take this submission off-topic. I'm exactly ON-topic, and have NO CLUE why you have just gotten so angry. But since you are so angry, I will post what I have just spent tiime composing, and then leave you to your anger and whatever. It seems that only your opinion is welcome here, and my opinions are ludicrous.

If you are THAT closed minded to opposition to your strongly held views that anyone else's views make you that angry, and if you are anti-semetic, then PLEASE, take me off your friends list. Because we both knew that we are outspoken and forthright. But I don't need your attacks and anger. Being a "friend" should offer more leeway than you have just shown me here.

My last post here before I stop tracking:

These recent articles have NOTHING to do with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. They’re simply anti-Israel. These articles are all listed on the 1st page of his website.

o When Will Israel Attack the U.S. — Again?
o Can the U.S. Beat Israel at their Game?
o Was Israel Ever Legitimate?
o Anti-Semitism – What is it?
o Zionism Unmasked

It is possible to be upset at anything Israel does against the Palestinians WITHOUT being anti-Israel. But, if you are anti-Israel, then one-sided arguments are acceptable, as this author has proven.

Monday May 10, 2010, 7:39 pm
All I have to say is who ever did it American, African, Saudia Arabian or Jamaican, who ever they need to be punished. i am sick of our security as you say dropping the ball. But I am also very proud that vendors did not hesitate to take action. that is what being American is all about. I am one of those Americans who kind of know what's going on in the world but can't really tell you in depth about it. But I do know I am proud to be American and this person who cares about race needs to be punished. i don't like that people from other countries come in to our Country and want to be americans and live here but hate us so bad that they would do this. If you do not like our country leave. I now this sounds really bad but I am just tired of people having all these beliefs and can't fallow the law. We all need to follow the same laws. I don't know I am just tired of all the drama. But the world will never be without drama and war!

Monday May 10, 2010, 7:51 pm
No, Carole, we were all addressing the article, but you didn't like what we found in the article that you overlooked. Just because people take something else away from an article doesn't mean that they haven't read it.

Monday May 10, 2010, 8:12 pm
Deanna and Chana, can't send you a green star because I have already done so. Therefore I am sending you hugs. I have stopped commenting on Care2 regarding "issues" with Israel as it reminds me of Don Quijote fighting with wind mills.

Just C., if you are truly interested in balancing your information I recommend you also read: http://honestreporting.com/
http://www.pmw.org.il/
www.unwatch.org

However, I suspect that you are not truly interested in getting information that might challenge your stance.

Monday May 10, 2010, 8:25 pm
i sort of skimmed that article. it didn't really have factual proof that israel did anything, but history and a bunch of coincidences to say that israel was behind the attack. deannagiggleshehe's first comment pretty much said it all. the article and the commets on care2 are not outright anti-semitic, but just take a look at the comments on veteranstoday.com. i was just boiling when i read them. they pretty much said that jews (not zionists or israelis, but all jews) are the root of all evil. i don't think i would trust anything from that site.

Monday May 10, 2010, 9:37 pm
Ambrose, this is way over the top and has nothing to do with a debate. I flagged you and requested that this most inappropriate comment will be removed. It is people like you who give those who support the Palestinian cause a bad reputation.

Monday May 10, 2010, 9:42 pm
I don't even bother flagging Ambrose anymore, Iris. I feel sorry for him because he is so filled with hate. As you know, that indicates low self-esteem. I pray for him, instead. I hope that some day he'll learn to love himself and that will open his heart to others. He can't be as mean as he seems.

Monday May 10, 2010, 10:04 pm
and chana, there is no hate in my heart (well, except for the yankees cause i'm a mets fan), but the low self-esteem is another matter. that is my actual photo chana, taken on the thanksgiving that just went by and let me tell you girl, if you looked like me. you would have low self-esteem too.

Monday May 10, 2010, 10:10 pm
Ambrose, no one should have low self-esteem because of anything external. The only thing that matters is what's in your heart. I believe you have the capacity for true caring, Ambrose, but you can't really love if there's any hate in your heart. You can disagree with what someone's doing without hating him/her.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 12:05 am
I can attest to the fact that Ambrose has a good heart. He has a very misdirected sense of communication. Chana, that you are so kind to him in spite of the way he attacks you says a great deal about the goodness in your heart. There are many here I admire a great deal but you my dear lady are at the top of my list!

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 2:33 am
When America comes to understand that bombing and killing in far off Countries cannot produce the results that hard headed negotiations can, then America will start to find the way of really reaching hearts and minds. It can make a start by being a part of the UN instead of being the UN.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 2:56 am
Northern, I couldn't agree more with your assessment of Chana. She is a person of the highest integrity and she possesses a degree of compassion and humanity which many on this thread would do well to try to emulate.
Deanna. You won your argument hands down, proving that brains will always triumph over bluster.
Carole. Read the racist comment from ATW which I've just flagged. Do you agree with the last sentence? A simple YES or NO will suffice.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 3:58 am
For all you pro-Israel fans… misguided and uncaring… Here it goes…

(1) There is a reason for everything… Someone does not wake up in the morning and say… “well… I can go to Walmart or go make a car bomb… which will it be?”
(2) Say what you will… you can say that Israel is defending itself sitting around waiting for a JUST peace…. (you can say that but you would be stupid) You can believe whatever you want… But… at this moment Israel is building more settlements, more walls, more roadblocks, more museums of TOLERANCE where Palestinian homes used to be...
(3) The US is bombing in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan and threatening Iran…. Believe it or not… there are people in this world who resent our behavior… Imagine that? Someone objects? You think there should be no reactions… no objections? You would not react?

Israeli diehards and sympathizers to Zionistic expansion: while you are supporting Israel… you are supporting Israeli expansion… Admit it and stop the crap about Israel being a GOOD and PEACEFUL country… If Israel had good intentions then they would not be taking away land… You can’t admit that? Won’t admit that? I think you should look in the mirror… Look carefully…

The US support for Israel.. our one-sided support, gives the green light for the Zionists to take way more land and put more in prison… Israel would be more secure if it opted for peace and stopped expansion… And US security is threatened by our support of Israeli expansion… It is the lightening rod for more terrorist recruits…

If you only see your view of things… you will never truly see… Open you eyes and look what is happening… (Israel is taking more land) Open your heart and feel the pain of the Palestinian people...

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 4:44 am
Bob E., an opinion that is diferent does not necessarily mean the person voicing it is stupid. Maybe you should read some history.
You're right about the USA's actions being cause for resentment. We should bring ALL our troops home!

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 11:34 am
Ambrose, there is a way to speak and a way to debate. What you are trying to engage us in is not the way to do it. Your assertions are ridiculous. Perhaps you would like to give it another try so reasonable discussion can take place?

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 3:36 pm
i'm not gonna have a debate with people stained by the blood of children. every time you defend the child killing entity you are helping to kill children. and every single time an enabler of the child killers rears his/her head, i will be there to point out the blood of woman and children on their heads. if you wanna shut me up, stop defending the child killers.

Ambrose -- Damned straight! You don't have to conform to anyone else's rules of proper decorum (except maybe Care2's code of conduct). (Nobody else does. This thread has been more of a knee-jerk reactive, venomous spew fest than a debate! hehehehehe)

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 4:00 pm
hamas does not kill children. they are the soul of palestine. the legitimate government of palestine, the ones that we should be talking to. they are brave social workers forced to fight a child killing entity. your new buddies fatah (PLO), kills children. birds of a feather.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 4:12 pm
no no no you are. you guys think your informed, but in reality you're breast fed. it's a shame that so many wonderful jewish people are going to go down because of the zionist again.

Palestinian sources report that during the three weeks of the Israeli operation in Gaza, Hamas forces were sent out to catch Fatah members breaking their house arrest. One Fatah man was shot and killed in front of his children for taking one step outside of his house. The Palestinian daily newspaper, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, reported on a Gazan girl whose father was killed by Hamas gunmen. Additionally, Hamas shot and wounded nine other members of her family including several children.

Medical evidence indicates that the shrapnel that hit a member of the family of Gaza gynecologist Ezzaldeen Abulaish came from a terrorist weapon, not the military-grade ordnance used by the Israel Defence Forces.

Abulaish lost three children and a niece in an explosion that he ascribed to an Israeli tank shell.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 4:29 pm
lol, youre using zionist sources. nice try girlie. that's not gonna carry much weight. and on top of it you mentioned fatah (PLO). when the zionist pigs were pursuing the PLO dogs, it was all good wasn't it? but god forbid that the legitimate government of palestine pursue the worthless PLO. that would be wrong, right Chana?

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 4:34 pm
in the anglo world the killing of children is anathema. they will eventually turn on the zionist and become the new nazi's. the signs of anglo discontent are all over, but the zionist are too drunk on the blood of children to read them.

Your rhetoric sounds an awful lot like white supremacist rhetoric. I'm not going to argue with you, Ambrose. I just hope that someday you can open up your mind a little and let a little love in. Not everyone in this world hates other people.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 4:56 pm
Ambrose, Hamas puts their children in the line of fire every single day. They have the same regard for their lives as the suicide bombers do. Nada. You cannot hold Israel solely responsible for the deaths. It takes two to fight and two to settle an argument. As outsiders we should be looking at both sides of an argument and looking for the middle ground that will bring that argument to an end. You as well Carole. It surprised me when you appeared to support this rhetoric.
If we as outsiders to an issue cannot look in on it and find a solution how can we expect the people who live it to find one? Instead of feeding this kind of hatred we should be looking for a middle ground where they can meet and work on things. This kind of rhetoric only leads to a hatred for people I will never carry in my heart for anyone.
Hate is an easy emotion to feed Ambrose. You are a better man that that.

"Ambrose -- Damned straight! You don't have to conform to anyone else's rules of proper decorum (except maybe Care2's code of conduct). (Nobody else does. This thread has been more of a knee-jerk reactive, venomous spew fest than a debate! hehehehehe)"

Now, PULEEZ tell me where you got that I agree with Ambrose's thinking! I simple am defending his right to disagree and voice himself as he wishes.

Heretofore, there has been little regard for parliamentary debate rules in this thread; nor conduct that attempted to "engage" anyone. Strictly criticisms and insulting accusations of other posters and their views, the source of the story, the author's intent, etc. No one has even debated the subject of the post!

And now you want to help "poor Ambrose" get a healthier outlook on life??? LOL (And you're STILL continuing with the personal.)

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 5:21 pm
I am all for free speech Carol and if I misunderstood what you were saying I sincerely apologize. I support free speech but do not support any forms of rhetoric or references to others that are negative. It is not constructive and is what always leads to the degradation of good conversations here at Care 2. There is so much we can learn from each other if we will only be reasonable in our language. I do not do attacks and do not like attacks on any one or any thing. I do sincerely apologize to you.

Some of Chana's comments (and try to imagine these in a debate scenario, where questions are asked and the respondent is required to answer, and notice the concentration on personal judgments):

"Give it a break, Carole. Every time a Muslim attacks innocent civilians (or tries to), you try to lay the blame on Israel. It's getting old. If we're going to lay the blame on the people who influenced those who acted, then we'd better blame the world for what Israel did, because Jews wouldn't need a homeland if they hadn't been so persecuted, while the world allowed it to happen. And we can blame the English and Americans for the rise of the Nazis, since if Germany hadn't been doing so poorly financially after WWI, then the Nazi movement probably wouldn't have caught on. Why we could do this for hours, no years, coudln't we."

"I'm not asking you to be "pro-Israel," Carole, but you're always making excuses for these murderers and would-be murderers."

"You excuse them, Carole, by laying the blame consistently at the door of Israel and those that support Israel. "

------ and, when I asked for proof . . .

"You and I both know that you have, Carole, but I am not going to spend my Sunday evening going through thousands of old posts. You and Kit would have some good arguments about this. Perhaps if Kit were around, she would feel like putting in hours reading your old repetitive posts, but I don't."

------ but, if she senses someone is judging her . . .

"People sure make a lot of assumptions around here, Blacktiger. Never have I said or intimated that Israel is entitled. If you had read my posts over the past year or so, you would see that I do not agree with all that Israel does. Instead, you make assumptions about me that are not based in fact."

------ and, now, the switch to Ambrose . . .

"I don't even bother flagging Ambrose anymore, Iris. I feel sorry for him because he is so filled with hate. As you know, that indicates low self-esteem. I pray for him, instead. I hope that some day he'll learn to love himself and that will open his heart to others. He can't be as mean as he seems."

"Ambrose, no one should have low self-esteem because of anything external. The only thing that matters is what's in your heart. I believe you have the capacity for true caring, Ambrose, but you can't really love if there's any hate in your heart. You can disagree with what someone's doing without hating him/her. "

Who would have believed it? Only days after a warning of an Israeli “false flag” bombing against the US “in the works” a massive car bomb is discovered in Time Square! Better yet, though no intelligence organization in the world could discover anyone claiming responsibility for this embarrassing failure, SITE Intelligence, a group rumored as the “voice of the Mossad” has placed the blame on the Pakistani Taliban.

::::::::

ONGOING INVESTIGATION/FOX “ISRAELI ASSET” NEWS ATTACKS OBAMA

With New York police discounting the Pakistan connection to the bombing immediately, Fox News has unleashed an attack on the Obama administration in a well orchestrated manner, accusing democrats of “failing to protect the American people.”

With both Site Intelligence and Fox News tied directly to Israel and the signature and timing of this attack showing clear Israeli fingerprints, Fox may be right.

America may be unable to protect itself from a nation still seen by most Americans as a close ally. No other nation has the capability of such an attack or the influence to orchestrate the news, an act already in motion.

If any finger is pointing anywhere, Fox News is telling us “Israel did it.”

But, seriously, Luisa, that WAS the point of the article. With America on constant "heightened alert" (for terrorists . . . and illegal aliens); no-fly lists, etc., I'm surprised at the lack of concern over this guy.

He smokes up a pile of Miracle Gro -- in Times Square, in broad daylight; and leaves the keys to his get-away car on the seat. Initially, he's ruled to be a lone wolf, bereft because of marital/financial problems -- which, by the way, I commented on earlier, but everyone was so busy pointing anti-Semitic fingers they never paid any attention -- and then he's linked to the Pakistani Taliban! (And he immediately starts running his mouth to anyone who will listen.)

It sounds like a skit from SNL, and makes our internal intelligence agencies and Homeland Security looks like the Keystone Kops.

Well, people may discount Fox News -- I most certainly do -- but the fact remains that they have a real grip on a huge number of viewers (and Rupert Murdoch, being the Chairman and CEO, is just another one of those many "coincidences" mentioned in the article).

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 6:25 pm
I know Carole. As you just wrote, this thread went hell in a hand basket after the third post. I've been reading all the posts and the "outrage"

The article I posted makes a very interesting connection between the "crotch bomber" and the terrorist threat in New York. by the Times Square Fizzler.

"...it wasn’t until the “crotch bomber” of last Christmas that the breadth of Israel’s penetration of US security was demonstrated with Abdulmohammed’s attack tying directly to Tel Aviv."

The article goes on to show that reliable sources have tied this group directly to Mossad/RAW training camps inside Afghanistan and Balochistan. The Pakistani Taliban have long been allies of Israel and India with 2000 terrorist trainers inside Afghanistan arming Pakistani Taliban terrorist group.

This has been confirmed, not only in direct briefings with the Pakistani ISPR and ISI but US military intelligence sources as well, who dispute the number of terrorist trainers, not their presence.

Terrorist groups inside Balochistan, the remote Pakistan province said to be a haven for Mossad attacks against Iran, claim to be headquartered in Israel. These groups work directly with the Pakistan Taliban and are another indication of this current “stunt” turning back on non-Islamic planners.

As I mentioned earlier, there are too many knee-jerk reactions [diversions] purposely going on here; and while we're so busy accusing others -- and they're busy defending themselves -- the powers that be are conducting their murderous, greedy business, while we scratch out the eyes of people who aren't really our enemies.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 6:38 pm
show me where hamas does that northern? stop influencing fresh minds with this garbage. show us where and when hamas has put children in danger. stop the nonsensical chatter and show me. i can show you hundreds of instances where your child killing idols do.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 7:15 pm
he's looking for instances where hamas has been the cause of children being hurt. if he would have looked for the times the entity has killed or hurt children, he'd be back by now with enough to fill a thousand books. i suspect he's gonna cut his loses and run. he is way too smart to further this engagement.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 7:38 pm
Fresh minds? Here at Care 2? You know something I don't Ambrose because we have all been in our respective corners for quite awhile. It was interesting for me to see a Liberal show up and be eaten alive by other Liberals in another thread. Uncalled for and quite an eye opener to the person who got shredded. Did support Obama but is now taking a second look because of what happened.

Proof is that Hamas was sending missiles daily into Israel. Again I blame two sides in a fight but it is stupid for them to do this when they are out gunned. What did they expect Israel to do? Just let it happen? It would also help if they did not try and hide some of these missiles in schools and other locations that children are. They use the children as shields for their crap Ambrose. It was evidenced in a news report done recently by one of my Canadian news channels. I am trying to find that program to set up as a link but the fact is we all have our minds made up. Me offering sources of proof then just becomes a fight of who's information is more credible. That is all this leads to and again we will change no ones minds.

I do not cut and run from anything but I do not play games as some here try and do when they want to humiliate people rather than converse with them. There is a gang of goons on the loose here from both sides of the aisle and I only engage them if I am asked to and only then if I think there is a point to it. These threads would be boring indeed if we all posted the same stuff would they not? Nothing to read if we are all 'yes men' for our sides. You know I admire your passion for what you stand for but that I also do not believe the same as you. So what. Why should that give me a right to demean you because of what you believe or visa versa? I would much rather give you cudos for any respect you earn by the way you post. We have 'talked' about this before.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 7:56 pm
in other words northern. you have no proof. because there is no proof northern. hamas is the soul of palestine. rockets? they don't have f-16's. f-16's dropping bombs on schools and hospitals are cool with you aren't they northern?

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 8:06 pm
Does anyone here remember the song "Universal Soldier" by Buffy Sainte Marie? I remember when I first heard that song thinking, 'It's that simple." If no one goes to war, there will be no more wars.

The problem, of course, is that everyone has to agree not to go to war.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 8:19 pm
Why thank you, Ambrose, but I wouldn't want you feeling bad all day over something like that. People have said far worse. Heck, you've said far worse!!!! :)

Let's face it, if you're being attacked, if your children are being killed, the other side is terrorizing you. Any side can come up with any number of justifications for defending themselves or avenging a loss or whatever else, but the plain and simple fact is that no child should die. No people should live in fear. And somehow, somehow, we have to come together as a world and say that violence is WRONG!

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 8:42 pm
Everyone deserves respect. In the heat of the argument we lose track of that (myself included) and say things we probably would never say face to face. I apologize for my part in all of that. The fact is, I think we have much more in common than we have that divides us.

Tuesday May 11, 2010, 10:52 pm
Gobsmacked my friends! This is the most heartwarming thing that I have had the honour of being a part of since coming to Care 2. I just dare anyone to try and step on the toes of we four Amigo's tonight! We will all live to argue another day but each one of you always has this old Canucks greatest respect. Always have and always will. Ambrose .... I will find the link to that Canadian documentary if I can and send it to you. Again it will change no minds and we must continue to hope that a meeting of the minds will take place and for the sake of all the people in that region of the world they will someday be able to live in peace.

Pakistan denies Taliban link to Times Square bomb suspect --Investigators dismiss US claims that Faisal Shahzad was working under direction of Pakistani Taliban 11 May 2010 Pakistani investigators have found no evidence to support American claims that the failed Times Square bomber was working under the direction of the Pakistani Taliban, the Guardian has learned. Senior officials in Washington – including the attorney general, Eric Holder, and John Brennan, the White House's special adviser on counterterrorism – have said that the suspected bomber, Faisal Shahzad, conspired with militants in Pakistan, but a Pakistani security official with knowledge of the investigation said: "No Taliban link has come to the fore." [Right, it was a false flag, six ways to Sunday.]

Wednesday May 12, 2010, 6:41 pm
Makes one wonder where the real truth lies in all of this! I am hoping Ani from Pakistan will follow up with stories he picks up there because it is enough to give one a headache trying to figure this all out Carole. Just wish the world would get along with each other. If only ehÉ (dang it)

There's more to this story than we'll ever know. (There will always be people blocking current releases protecting this administration -- just as this administration is still protecting the Bush administration.)

When will people realize that it doesn't matter WHO is the current president (figurehead)? Until they do, nothing will change.

And, for those who still want to doubt the veracity of this publication, here are Mr. Duff's (Veterans Today's editor-in-chief credentials:

"Gordon Duff is a Marine Vietnam veteran, grunt and 100% disabled vet. He has been a featured commentator on TV and radio including Al Jazeera and his articles have been carried by news services around the world. He has been a UN Diplomat, defense contractor and is a widely published expert on military and defense issues. He is active in the financial industry and is a specialist on global trade. Gordon Duff acts as political and economic advisor to a number of governments in Africa and the Middle East. Gordon Duff is currently working on economic development projects in Pakistan and Afghanistan to counter the effects of poverty and global extremism."

While there is more to this story then conventional news sources toss at us, it's always useful to look for alternative sources like the article posted for new information, for new possibilities, and debate.

I believe you are saying that it doesn't matter who the president is, until the American people take a stand on the Middle East about the cloak and dagger machinations that go on and which result in manipulation of the media nothing will change.

If Americans continue show apathy and/or roll over accepting US policy in the Middle East as the only alternative towards "Peace", nothing will change regardless of who the President elect happens to be.

Thursday May 13, 2010, 7:56 pm
I think they were more honest back in the day but how would we really know? I do know that I have watched their demise for the last twenty years in America and know the same thing has happened in my country as well. The best thing that has happened from what is taking place in America is that Canadians are taking a good look at our system. I am really hopeful I will see us make an effort here to turn things around in Canada.