Bitter Pills: Men and Women in Rape Culture

Peter Houlihan breaks down the defining assumptions of rape culture, its gendered state, and asks that blame not be placed on all men.

I was asked to write this article after I wrote an, unfortunately angry, point-by-point response to this piece by Soraya Chemaly. When I wrote my response I felt somewhat hurt by what I perceived as her, probably unintended, marginalization of male victims of assault.

I highly prize calm and reasoned discussion of gender and I’d like to take advantage of this space to explore some arguments and constructs commonly associated with rape culture theory that seem to me to be problematic and in some cases contradictory. Some of them are mentioned in the above article; others are drawn from elsewhere. I don’t wish to represent them as the specific views of Ms. Chemaly, or any other commentator, but they are ideas I have seen used on several occasions to support the concept of rape culture.

I also don’t wish to present myself as an expert on the subject, but my objections are sincere and I believe that they are both relevant and logically sound. I understand that many definitions of rape culture exist, but for the purposes of this piece I’d like to present the following definition from wikipedia.

Wikipedia: “Rape culture is a term which originated in women’s studies and feminist theory, describing a culture in which rape and sexual violence against women are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalise, excuse, or tolerate sexual violence against women. Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification and rape apologism.”

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Rape is something that happens only to women: Unfortunately this, and any discussion concerning rape, is something of a semantic argument. In many jurisdictions, rape is legally defined in such a way that nothing done to a man can ever be considered rape, regardless of whether the same act, performed on a woman, must be.

Even in legal systems which recognize the rape of men, the definition often focuses on the penetration of the victim, meaning that PIV sex, and other common sex acts that don’t involve penetration, cannot be considered rape when performed on an unconsenting male. The presence of an erection is also used as evidence of consent, even in cases of diminished responsibility and mental disability.

Interfering with a woman’s right to control her reproduction (such as falsely claiming to use a condom) is also often regarded as rape, but despite that this form of assault is also perpetrated against men, I know of no legal system which attributes such violations against men with similar gravity. Many gender theorists also define rape, and even sexual violence in general as specifically something men do to women.

Regardless of what we call it, and whether we wish to make hierarchical distinctions between different groups of sexual assault victims, sexual violence can and does happen to men and boys.

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Rape is something perpetrated only by men: Again, this is a somewhat semantic argument. Where rape is legally defined as something that can only happen to a woman or girl, or something that can only be committed by a man, the statistics will uniformly show that only women are victims and men are perpetrators. Added to this are cultural and ideological biases within which men are not permitted to be recognized as victims, particularly of sexual violence, and women are uniformly constructed as non-agressive, non-sexual people. Given these two tendencies, the dismissal of male victims, and the existence of female perpetrators, by courts of law, policing forces, researchers in the field of sexual violence, and society in general is inevitable.

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Women are raped more than men, men rape more than women: Given the above issues, with the recognition of male victims and female perpetrators, we simply cannot know how sexual violence breaks down by gender. But I’d go a step further: it’s not relevant. If we are willing to accept that women can victimize and men can be victims, then solutions focused on gender difference are clearly missing the point. I sometimes question the motivation of gender commentators who can’t seem to mention rape without emphasizing the gender gap in current statistics. It almost seems as if they are attempting to establish a moral high and low ground for each gender respectively based on crimes performed by individuals against individuals. Even if men rape more than women, it is still a human issue, and divisive tactics aimed at blaming an entire group of innocent humans are highly counterproductive.

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Masculinity, and all men, are fundamentally rapacious: At this point I would like to quote an article from The Guardian:

What Facebook and others who defend this pernicious hate speech don’t seem to get is that rapists don’t rape because they’re somehow evil or perverted or in any way particularly different from the average man in the street: rapists rape because they can. Rapists rape because they know the odds are stacked in their favour, because they know the chances are they’ll get away with it.

Commentary like this is very hard to ignore, or accept, especially since I am a member of the group she is talking about. If a commentator were to focus on statistics claiming that black people commit more violent crime in the US than any other group and subsequently use these facts to imply that all black people and black culture were fundamentally violent and criminal by nature, their commentary would be quite correctly labelled as a hate speech.

Even if we ignore female perpetrators of sexual violence, rape is only committed by a minority of men. Those men often themselves have a history of abuse and other psychological problems. I by no means wish to imply that all victims of abuse become abusers, but if we examine the psychology of perpetrators of sexual crime it quickly becomes clear that they are usually very different from the average man in the street. It is also quite clear that the opportunity to commit rape does not turn an ordinary man into a rapist, if it did then rape would occur without exception every time a man and woman were alone together.

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All rape jokes directly contribute to rape and misogyny: Personally I am highly critical of the Facebook pages mentioned above. In the context of Facebook, with widespread anonymity in a somewhat serious atmosphere, it’s not unreasonable to assume that some people who clicked “like” may have been doing so out of genuine feelings of misogyny. This said, I do know at least one rape victim who “liked” them, so I think we can also assume that many users took them as they were probably intended: as jokes.

What makes those jokes unacceptable, at least to me, is that they have the potential to be taken seriously. They’re also being broadcast in a manner by which they have a definite chance of reaching a victim of rape. While Facebook isn’t intended as a safe space, it still seems unreasonable to me that victims of rape should fear all public spaces on the basis that they may be reminded of their ordeal.

I don’t agree, however, that these conditions are true of all spaces. When intimate friends joke in private, they do so in the knowledge that those present don’t intend offense and don’t hold opinions, which imply that their jokes are serious. Assumptions can be made about a friend making a racist joke in private that cannot be made about a stranger making the same joke in a public bar. Equally, some public spaces, such as a stand-up comedy club, specifically allow a suspension of offense (in much the same manner that cinema allows a suspension of disbelief) and require a suspension of suspicion regarding the motives of the comic.

People likely to be sensitive to jokes on a particular subject are also empowered to decide whether or not they are exposed to them by such humour being confined to private or “humor safe” spaces while equally allowing other people to explore such humor in freedom. I also find the tendency of some gender commentators to put jokes about rape in a separate category to jokes about other offensive topics such as racism. If we were to adopt a zero-tolerance policy to any humor found by any group or individual to be offensive, we would quickly find that all humor would be off limits, except perhaps for jokes involving ducks crossing roads.

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Personal safety advice puts the onus on victims to prevent rape: While victim blaming does exist, and is by no means confined to sexual assault, it should not be confused with genuine concern for the safety of others and the dissemination of information empowering people to make safe decisions.

Only one group of people is responsible for rape: rapists. This said, we live in an imperfect world and we can all take measures to protect ourselves from violent crime. There are many streets in Dublin that I would be unwise to walk down after dark. While I absolutely assert my right to do so, it would be foolish of me to exercise that right absolutely. If I were assaulted while passing through such a space (and I have been) only one person would be responsible for my assault: my attackers. But I was nonetheless responsible to myself for putting myself in an unsafe situation which I could have avoided.

Rape, and other crimes, cannot be completely prevented by playing it safe, but we can take measures to reduce the chances of it happening to us. The distribution of information allowing people to make their lives safer shouldn’t be opposed on the basis that it somehow blames victims.

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Rape is incomparable to other forms of assault or sexual assault: All violent crimes are individual, and the experiences of their victims are individual. Some victims of rape are left incapable of functioning normally and endure psychological scars which darken the rest of their lives. Other victims are able to more effectively deal with their trauma and move on to live full and happy lives. This doesn’t imply any culpability of victims who can’t do this. Every human being is individual and has different strengths and weaknesses, it follows that every victim of sexual assault will react in a variety of different ways.

While accepting this, it is also reasonable to note that certain symptoms and illnesses, such as PTSD and depression, are often observed across rape victims. Just as they are often observed in victims of other forms of sexual assault, non-sexual assault, and exposure to extreme violence.

The reason that it is important to establish this is to break an unfortunate tendency on the part of some gender commentators to enshrine rape as the ultimate crime and rape victims as the ultimate victims. This is especially problematic when rape is not a closely defined term and is, sometimes, strictly defined to the point where very few victims are considered victims at all and other times expanded to the point where women who have been forced to have sex at knifepoint are directly compared to women who chose to have sex while drunk with an equally drunk partner.

The impact of violent crime cannot be scientifically measured or neatly sorted into categories. What emotionally cripples one person for life is easily shrugged off by the next. While it is often necessary for legal systems to categorize crimes in terms of their characteristics and assign gravity accordingly to ensure fairness, I propose that outside of the courts it would be more compassionate to accept each victim as an individual and avoid comparing, elevating, debasing or otherwise ranking their victimhood in terms of other peoples experiences.

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Believe the victim: This stance has huge and obvious problems. We do not live in a world where truth and falsehood can always be absolutely determined. On this basis, our legal systems, in principle, allow the benefit of the doubt to fall to the accused of any particular crime. This gives rise to such constructs as innocence until guilt is proven and reasonable doubt. Unfortunately some people have and do lie about their victimhood and falsely accuse innocent people of crimes they have not committed.

The call to believe the victim is a perfectly reasonable one, except that prior to any given trial, and sometimes even after it, we are completely unaware as to whether the victim is the accused or the accuser of rape. This uncertainty also means that the examination of the motives and actions of the accuser is appropriate within the context of establishing whether reasonable doubt exists as to whether the rape actually occurred. This should not be interpreted as victim blaming, any more than cross examination of the accused should be, as there is every possibility that the accuser is not the victim.

Unfortunately, the policy of believing the victim is enshrined in some laws such as the rape shield laws that have in the past prevented innocent men from introducing relevant evidence. In some cases this evidence subsequently proved that they were, in fact, the victim when their case was appealed. Similarly, laws protecting the accuser, but not the accused, from public scrutiny unfairly assume the victimhood of the accuser over that of the accused.

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Rape is condoned by gendered cultures: It is commonly claimed that gendered culture condones and accepts rape as part of the natural order. If this were so, it is difficult to imagine why accused rapists are so avariciously pursued by law enforcement authorities, condemned in the media, and their guilt often assumed prior to their trial.

Ask any man who has been falsely accused of rape whether society condones rape, and you will very quickly find how shallow the truth of this idea really is.

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Only men can prevent rape: This is hugely problematic. From the point of view of someone who attributes all rape to all men and is fighting what they perceive as a tendency on the part of society to place to responsibility of rape prevention on women, all of whom are victims, this is perfectly reasonable. If, however, you accept that at least some of the people coming forward and reporting sexual victimisation at the hands of women are telling the truth (and some of these people are very close friends of mine) then you would have to accept that the responsibility for rape falls at least as heavily on women.

In reality, the only people who can absolutely prevent any crime are the criminals who perpetrate it. In the case of crimes such as rape, which are often the product of a twisted and warped psychology, a call to reason is ineffective to the point of comedy. We don’t produce posters calling on violent offenders not to commit assault, if a person is of such a disposition that they intend to do so the call will be ignored, if they aren’t inclined to do so then they won’t. Equally, calls for men not to rape won’t reach the ears of actual rapists, male or female. They can however reach the ears of innocent men and falsely imply that all men are potential rapists.

A far more realistic approach is to equip people with as much information as possible as to how situations in which might render them vulnerable to violent crime can be avoided, and for the police to do their job. These measures won’t end rape, but they’ll do a lot more than placing the blame on all men.

4. Unfortunately, the policy of believing the victim is enshrined in some laws such as the rape shield laws that have in the past prevented innocent men from introducing relevant evidence. As an ex prosecutor I am not sure where you are drawing your information from, but depending on the state only small fraction of rape cases get publicized to the point where it could impact there social and professional lives. The majority of rapes reported to the police never make it to trial, thus are never reported to the public as described by the author. I implore those who… Read more »

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

I’m not arguing against the rape shield laws because they currently benefit women and discriminate against men, even if the reverse were true, and as you say, this may come to pass in the near future, they’d still be very wrong. I’m arguing that until guilt is proven the accused should have exactly the same rights and protections as the accuser. For instance: if its inappropriate for an accuser of rape to have their name published, then the same should be true of the accused. Its not like they face less of a media circus. The fact that this isn’t… Read more »

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

* In case I wasn’t clear enough: I really don’t stand over the language used in that article. I just wasn’t able to find anything more neutrally worded on that particular issue.

Thanks for posting that. There’s another case I’m looking for where a guy was denied permission to enter the fact that his accuser was a compulsive liar and had previously falsely accused other men of rape into evidence. On appeal he received the right to do so and won his case. Can’t find the article about it anywhere :(.

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Beste

4 years 10 months ago

I think I remember this case. Will have a look for it.

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John Sctoll

4 years 10 months ago

Are you actually trying to say a false rape claim doesn’t impact the accused.

A question for you as an ex-prosector. How many times did you prosecute a false rape claim and what kind of sentence did you ask for.

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CandidCutie

4 years 10 months ago

3. “If a commentator were to focus on statistics claiming that black people commit more violent crime in the US than any other group and subsequently use these facts to imply that all black people and black culture were fundamentally violent and criminal by nature, their commentary would be quite correctly labeled as a hate speech” That argument is not one to one and unfortunately people in the USA use the shame of slavery to make exceptions.

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

Do you mean that some black criminals use their blackness to get away with it? Sorry, I found that a bit hard to read. As for it not being one to one, did you mean its not an accurate analogy? I think it is. Some commentators are using the fact that all perpetrators of rape are male to imply that all males are rapists. You can see the logical problem there, right? If we agree that the first statement obviously doesn’t mean the second, then we’re left wondering why on earth someone would make such an argument. A likely answer… Read more »

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Dan

4 years 10 months ago

Obviously the analogy is not perfect. Lets say a commenter focused on statistics claiming jews committed more embezzlement than other groups and implied that all jews steal, that would also be an imperfect analogy. However the structural arguments in either scenario are sound. Generalizing from a statistic (limited incidents perpetrated by individuals) to a stereotype (negative categorical judgements of a group that happens to contain said individuals) is a logical fallacy. The stereotype cannot be true, or more importantly, useful. No one benefits, and members of the stereotyped group suffer.

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CandidCutie

4 years 10 months ago

2. More men are raped than women – if you go by the now outdated definition of forcible rape (thank goodness they expanded it) forcible penetration by a stranger statistically this form of rape is primarily committed by men. The elephant in the room – men on average are stronger than women, thus the type of rapes that require force to subdue a victim tend to be male. Local, state and FBI statistics support that data. So even with the expansion of the definition of rape, like for example a penis being for lack of a better word encasing a… Read more »

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Tamen

4 years 10 months ago

CandidCutie: Page 24 of the NISVS 2010 Report by CDC states: “a majority of male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%), sexual coercion (83.6%), and unwanted sexual contact (53.1%). For non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, approximately half of male victims (49.0%) reported only male perpe-trators and more than one-third (37.7%) reported only female perpetrators.” Initiating oral or vaginal sex with a sleeping or very drunk (stupor, incapacitated) man requires little physical force. Drugging a mans drink and then have oral or vaginal sex with him requires little physical strength. Threatening with blackmail (I’ll yell rape if you… Read more »

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

Thewhatnow? I don’t think I claimed that more men are being raped than women, I claimed its impossible to know what proportion of men and women are being raped on the basis that cultural stigma and restrictive legal definitions hide male victims. The main point I was trying to get across is that it shouldn’t matter. Rape is a human issue based on individuals that can’t be solved by gender specific methods.

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Jim

4 years 10 months ago

“2. More men are raped than women – if you go by the now outdated definition of forcible rape (thank goodness they expanded it) forcible penetration by a stranger statistically this form of rape is primarily committed by men.” You have an archaic and anti-feminist meaning of rape if that’s what you think. Rape is unwanted sex inflcited on someone. The victiim is the prson who is forced into sex, male or feale. So if a female forces a male to penetrate her against his will – and it can be done and if you don’t believe that’s yor fault… Read more »

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24KAuGuy

4 years 10 months ago

Are you sure you want to say that because you believe more men rape, that it somehow negates the number of men being raped?

Do you not see this as blame shifting and invalidating the experiences of men who have been raped?

I’ve seen this argument used far too many times and, speaking from personal experience, it does nothing but keep victims of crime silent and suffering alone.

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John Sctoll

4 years 10 months ago

OK, CandidCute: You just typed something that switch two different things OR I misread it. You mixed up who is being raped and who is doing the raping. He said more men are raped than women, And your response was that more men rape than women. those two thing are not opposites, in fact both are probably true. When it comes to rape a very common type of rape is virtually ignored, those of men raping men (in prison for example). Perhaps that is what he meant.

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Dan

4 years 10 months ago

Where do you guys find Peter asserting more men are raped than women? The only quote I see is: “We simply cannot know how sexual violence breaks down by gender”. Also CandidCutie, you say “if you go by the now outdated definition of forcible rape…’forcible penetration by a stranger’, statistically this form of rape is primarily committed by men.” The outdated definition of rape was actually “forcible penetration by a man”. Therefore, it’s quite easy to see why the statistics heavily implicated men, PER DEFINITION the only people who could commit rape in a legal sense. Point is, these statistics… Read more »

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CandidCutie

4 years 10 months ago

This was a great article, male victims of sexual assault are under served, ignored and when they speak up shunned… however there are few critical points I strongly disagree with… 1. Only men are capable of logic – the author did not state this outright – that women are incapable of logical reasoning, but it was implied throughout the article: “I highly prize calm and reasoned discussion of gender and I’d like to take advantage of this space to explore some arguments and constructs commonly associated with rape culture theory that seem to me to be problematic and in some… Read more »

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

Hi, and thanks 🙂 As for your dissertion: 1. I’d like to assure you that I was by no means attempting to contrast my manly logical mind with Sorya’s (supposedly) irrational female hysteria. I absolutely recognise that some people still do fall back on sexist assumptions like these, but that wasn’t what I was going for. I mentioned that I prized rational and unemotive discussion when it came to gender because I had just, myself, broken that rule by posting an angry and emotive comment on Sorya’s article. The above piece was my attempt to put my point across in… Read more »

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

*dissertion? Is that even a word? Sorry, long day :/ should be dissension.

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Dan

4 years 10 months ago

I believe you are reading far to much into this one sentence. “I highly prize calm and reasoned discussion of gender and I’d like to take advantage of this space to explore some arguments and constructs commonly associated with rape culture theory that seem to me to be problematic and in some cases contradictory.” Here Peter observes (as I have previously) that discussions on rape and rape culture can quickly devolve into emotion-driven, opinionated shit-throwing. He makes no insinuation as to who instigates, as both men and women, Feminists, and MRAs have been guilty. To prevent this decay of decorum,… Read more »

Peter, thank you for writing this clearly and outside of the depressing forum of comments. I really want to comment on the overlap however between what you and I both said, namely: 1) Rape happens to both men and women 2) Men are not fundamentally rapacious or predatory but hypergendered stereotypes about them support a culture of violence 3) Rape jokes are offensive because they perpetuate a culture of acceptance and do nothing to redefine what a society finds “acceptable.” In the same way that violently racists jokes, once totally ok, are now no longer “acceptable” 4) What I said… Read more »

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

No problem 🙂 As for the overlap: “1) Rape happens to both men and women” Yep, we definitely agree on that. “2) Men are not fundamentally rapacious or predatory but hypergendered stereotypes about them support a culture of violence” First bit, definitely. Also the second bit, but only if its *some* hypergendered stereotypes. Its important to recognise that many aspects of traditional masculinity are staunchly anti-rape. Its equally important to accept that aspects of femininity are also abusive. I think you mean this, but theres a running narritive throughout alot of the discourse on rape culture that seeks to imply… Read more »

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Archy

4 years 10 months ago

“The primary difference that I see between what you are saying and what I am saying is the degree to which you agree that female rape is part of a widespread, planetary, spectrum of violence against women used to oppress them and inhibit equality.”
I’ve seen rape is used as a tool in war against men at times, is this used to oppress men as a group, or more just culture/country/group vs culture/country/group, eg rival factions in a warzone? Also is rape targeted more to women whilst other violence is targeted more towards men?

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Random stranger

4 years 10 months ago

Thanks soraya, I too, believe rape culture exists, and that it is fundamentally a tool to control women. as a man, i see that rape culture keeps women in a state of fear of men and seeks to restrict their independent movement among them, that it seeks to limit their sexual liberty, and seeking the shelter of a patriarch. But keeping women in fear of men means enforcing the narrative that all men rape and that any women can be a victim.If you are against rape culture, than you should wish to contain the gendered narrative of a criminal pathology,… Read more »

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This man

4 years 10 months ago

“widespread, planetary, spectrum of violence against women used to oppress them and inhibit equality.”

Oh yeah? The why are at least 40% of the rapists showing up as women?

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This man

4 years 10 months ago

Thats the same bullshit the feminst movement told us about domestic abuse, they had to cover up the truth about it for decades to support their conspiracy theories.

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wellokaythen

4 years 10 months ago

I think the Facebook rape pages are/were in poor taste, as I think most reasonable, mature people would. Whether they should be banned is another question, although Facebook is a private company and it can set whatever terms it wants for its space. It’s basically private property. What I question is the argument about other people taking rape jokes too seriously. The argument: most people know these are just jokes, but there are people out there who will get the wrong idea and think rape is okay because people are joking about it. Of course, the person making such an… Read more »

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

I dunno, I think part of it is a little specific to facebook: the fact that the evidence of hundreds of pleople “liking” a page about rape is thrown at you, with no knowlege of the context in which they did so, makes it scarier than someone laughing right beside you. At least then you could gauge their tone and the tone of the comic as to whether malice is intended, on facebook its all very impersonal and scary. It reminds me a little of wandering around Killkenny with a girl I knew, we walked into an art exhibition that… Read more »

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That Guy

4 years 10 months ago

One of my dearest friends was a duck who was killed crossing a road, so I resent the implication that duck crossing road jokes are acceptable. How dare you, sir….

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

Sadly we live in a culture based on the persecution and stigmatization of duckhood, I weep when I see eiderdown.

“Encyclopedia Of Rape “In the United States the belief that representations of violence reproduce real violence was reinforced in the 1980s and 1990s by an intensified debate of prominent cases of rape, date rape, and sexual harassment within the media. This prominence of rape and sexual violence in popular culture seemed to suggest that American culture is a “rape culture.” However, the term rape culture misleadingly hints that rape occurs more frequently in a culture that talks about rape intensively than in cultures that deny its existence. Instead of documenting the state of real rape, though, the deployment of rape… Read more »

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This man

4 years 10 months ago

Great article, thanks Peter.

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John Sctoll

4 years 10 months ago

This is an absolutely fantastic article.

It is so great because it leaves out ’emotion’ and ‘feelings’ and while those things can be good , in a hot button topic like rape they only serve to derail the discussion.

“It is so great because it leaves out ‘emotion’ and ‘feelings’ and while those things can be good , in a hot button topic like rape they only serve to derail the discussion.”

Its true, I’m a vulcan.

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JustAMan

4 years 10 months ago

Well thought through and well written piece, Peter. Thank you. John, there will be no crap storm over this article because that would just give it attention. The problem is challenging and then changing the culture on the ground, when boys and men are victimized, when judges and the helping professions do not help, by naming names, showing faces and taking other direct, pointed but non-violent action. At present, those in power believe it is in their political and business interest to continue the frame the matter as they have. So, out of wild curiosity, has the Rape Culture entry… Read more »

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

I believe mediahound has edited the above definition and clafified the origins of the term somewhat.

Peter – Myself and a group of editors are working on the Wikipedia Definition of “Rape Culture”. It is quite fascinating, given that It has multiple meanings and definitions. It is quite clear from the Page History that some have edited for Propaganda Reasons – and the Theory/Model/Concept/Term has been abused in ways that fundamentally disagree with Wikipedia’s own mission. The “Systemic Bias”, “Cultural Bias” and “Systemic Racism” have been about using the Wiki page to define the USA as a “Rape Culture” for Political Reasons. It’s been so abusive it’s beyond reprehensible. It ignored such things as Prison Rape,… Read more »

“I was asked to write this article after I wrote an, unfortunately angry, point-by-point response to this piece by Soraya Chemaly. When I wrote my response I felt somewhat hurt by what I perceived as her, probably unintended, marginalization of male victims of assault.”

I admit that my initial comments may have been inappropriate for this website. I’m sure Peter had good intentions with this article, even if I find his methods and worldview naive. Go ahead and delete them if you wish.

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

I’m glad to hear you think so, I assure you they are. I wrote the article because I felt much the same way about the above components of rape culture theory.

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

*or to put it another way: where feminism is the radical notion that women are people too I’m definitely a feminist, as are most people I know.

The problem, Peter, is that feminism isn’t what feminists claim it to be. It is better to judge a movement or ideology on its actions rather than its words.

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assman

4 years 10 months ago

True but that is true of almost all movements with few exceptions. The only way to really deal with this is to argue at the level of psychological motivations instead of arguing facts. But nevertheless I like Peter’s article because without it there is NO counterargument to rape culture whatsoever.

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Peter Houlihan

4 years 10 months ago

Depends on the feminist, take this one for example: He wrote this: Another feminist wrote this: No wonder feminist theory is contradictory, its being written by people at opposite ends of the political spectrum. The only thing all feminists can really to be said to have in common is a concern for women’s rights. I assume you care about gender equality if you’re on a website like this. Doesn’t that, in a tiny way, also make you a feminist? This doesn’t have to mean you agree with the crazy stuff on rad-fem-hub, all it means is that you care about… Read more »

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kckrupp

4 years 10 months ago

Forweg, I thought you were opposed to Peter’s article until I saw the link to your website. In terms of the issues with Feminism, I agree that there is a fraction of feminists who truly seek to undermine and subjugate men, and then there is the vast majority of women who identify as feminists who really do want gender equality. The majority are not specialists in feminist theory, researchers, or academics they are students who have received all their learning from a set curriculum handed to them from the ‘specialists.’ The majority does not want to demonize anyone and have… Read more »

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Eagle33

4 years 10 months ago

kckrupp: “Without feminism having laid the groundwork we likely would not have male victims stepping forward” Stop right there, kckrupp. Here, as a male survivor (not of sexual abuse but general hurt from both genders, men and women, girls and boys) I have to state how, in my opinion, this doesn’t click with me at all. Feminism may have laid the groundwork, but they sure as heck weren’t there to defend me from the malcious treatments certain gynocentric feminists gave me in the early days. Read Bullied By Girls and Women on this publication for more information on the invalidation… Read more »

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kckrupp

4 years 10 months ago

Eagle, I apologize that my statement caused any offense. I certainly don’t have the personal experience of having gone through what you did (I have read your story here on GMP and I am so sorry you had to endure that.) My comment was merely my perspective from what I’ve seen and read not having experienced this first hand and it certainly may be wrong. The groundwork I was referring to was that it has seemed to me that feminism initiated the discussion in terms of questioning traditional gender roles. As far as their efforts to redefine the roles of… Read more »

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Eagle33

4 years 10 months ago

That’s what I mean.

They laid the groundwork, yes, but that’s as far as it goes in terms of supporting male survivors in the beginning.

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kckrupp

4 years 10 months ago

Eagle,

I’m glad that we are on the same page. Again, I am sorry that I wasn’t clear in my initial comment.

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kckrupp

4 years 10 months ago

In the worst case scenario, you come off as the reasonable and honest one and they are the ones spouting hate the potential allies will see more truth to what you have to say. After all, if they have to resort to such nasty tactics to “sell” their product the potential buyer will wonder what is deficient about their product that makes them have to rip apart yours.

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The Bad Man

4 years 10 months ago

Standing ovation man!

But I’d go a step further: it’s not relevant. If we are willing to accept that women can victimize and men can be victims, then solutions focused on gender difference are clearly missing the point

The argument over statistics is just a distraction from treating all people as human beings rather than different victim classes. Do you think feminist jurisprudence might have an influence?

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Beste

4 years 10 months ago

+1

It seems like there are more articles here about rape than any other subject.