2. The disc allways goes to the right (the first throw shows this well).

I have a long list with things I know I have to work on, but would really apprecciate if someone could point out the major mistakes I'm doing during the throw. If there are some good stuff inn there, I would like to hear those things too

I'm throwing Warlocks about 80 meters, tiny bit downhill (maybe 0,5 meters) with very little power. I feel pretty fluid on these throws, but as soon I'm powering up I'll loose momentum and balance, and my weight is way back.

Is my "fluid throw" fundamentally enough to work further on, or should I start everything all over again?

I'm no expert on form by any means but I think you have a very smooth delivery. I if you worked on your arm speed I think your distance would improve pretty quickly. But there are others on this site that will help you much more than this guy!

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Aargh! Not again! Could people please stop using photobucket because I'm not the only one who can't see some of the videos in there? www.mediafire.com doesn't require registration for example for uploading and you can just put up a file in the natural format of the camera without the need to process it and reduce the image quality. Which helps with seeing details in form.

Could you please upload your video to mediafire or some other file sharing site that allows downloads without registering?

I've found out that getting putters to fly farther than 80 meters I need to use less arm speed than with drivers. Too much speed and I can't keep either form(different types of OAT), grip/clean release or speed/spin rate right and flip the putter over. Mega snap is required for keeping up with the speed required for 80+ m which is good for putters. For more power and distance I concentrate on turning myself away from the target as far as I can controllably and twisting with the hips and shoulders as hard as I can. Keeping arm speed at under 100 %. Dunno if I can ever develop good enough form/snap/grip to utilize full arm speed with putters.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

good pivot on the foot/heel. Also smooth delivery. If you can continue to look that smooth, it'll pay off.

I believe a little wrist roll or OAT is pushing the stuff to the right.

You're way to casual about your finish (the time after the rip and before you follow through (for safety). Think of the hit as from just before the disc rips out to about 2-3 seconds after the disc has ripped out. That's when you should be in full acceleration mode.

I don't see any hip power either. You pull the disc through smoothly, but you should start the throw with your hips rotating. If you stand still reach back and pivot your hips (close them in the reach back), then pivot them forwards, you'll see how far your arm comes forward with the hips. By the time your hips are closing again, your arm is around your chest area. It's right after that you wan to accelerate the pull. Until that point, the arm is just along for the ride. You should find the arm acceleration is much easier from that point. It'll probably throw your timing and aim off, but when you get that back, it should be a boon for distance.

I can't see how close the disc is to your chest when it comes across, but you should feel the snap if you're keeping it close. If you're not, then follow Aaron's advice and pull closer to the chest.

Not sure what's different between your photobucket and .mpg vids, but the second vid in .mpg goes from your reachback to past disc release in one frame. it skips your entire throwing motion.

What I think I saw, but can't see in frame-by-frame playback on the .mpg vids is that you're starting out with your wrist angled for a hyzer release, but by the time the disc leaves your hand it's flat. That's a pretty significant amount of wrist roll.

SkaBob I also got skips with VLC but Media Player Classic plays them fine. In the mpgs. Cameras often use mjpeg format which is different from regular mpg. Not every player handles mjpgs correctly.

This might get a little long winded.

I did not listen with audio so I can't say for sure if you had grip lock from sound. In the first video your body blocked the view and in the second the two frames around the release are too far apart and not showing the release. However; judging by other factors I think I can help with the release to the right trouble.

In short you plant too far to the left by a lot and prevent your hips from turning towards the target before the rip. Also timing of some motions are off.

Your hips are locked in the end of the hip twist because you're reaching or reach the end of your mobility. Before that your muscles are stretching and slowing down the twist. You want the twist to happen so that the muscles aren't stretched when the disc releases. This means very late power focus and a good bit of overlap on some motions. Which is fine because you're getting good power from several sources simultaneously for a great acceleration late in the throw. Power focus that is.

One could say how can your hips be locked when there's so much more degrees left in your hips to twist until you reach the absolute end of mobility dictated by the bones? You're not there and yet it seems like your hips are locking. The reasons are the small muscles in the upper part of your right thigh on the front side reaching their limits. That's because you plant so far to the left. This makes it dangerous to your health to try to force the waist to bend forwards for nose down throws.

Please do not try to push your torso forwards for nose down until you've corrected the plant to the middle of the tee for a flat throw. Or to the right of the middle line for a hyzer.

Planting to the left like you do now also makes life difficult because you're compensating for the body leaning to the right=anhyzer and still releasing flat.

All your body parts aren't moving in conjunction with each other. Your shoulders are doing a lot of work too early and stopping too early. Probably in part because your hip twist stops early thanks to locking. You turn your shoulder quite far back which is fine but it also creates the pitfall that you've stepped into. The exact same situation applies to legs, hips and shoulders as to the arm pull. You don't wanna start at full speed at the earliest possible time. You needs late power focus. You need a lot of degrees in the hip and shoulder turn to be facing the target once you release the disc. In order to do that it's very easy to start at full power and not have any acceleration in the end. Starting relaxed with the hips and the shoulders hitting the late acceleration should help. With power generation and accuracy.

When your shoulders stop turning you're swinging your arm to the right and long after the shoulders are stopped you release the disc. Your arm is moving in an arc from left to right if looking from up to down. Not at all in a straight line lawn mower starting move. The optimum time window doesn't exist for an arc for an accurate release. There's just one miniscule time to release for accurate throw. In a lawn mower pull there's a time window that makes small errors insignificant.

This might seem like a hard obstacle but never fear. Simply planting to the center of the tee or to the right of it and twisting hard with the hips and still staying relaxed in the beginning of the throw helps a ton. It defuses the hip and shoulder locking problems and makes you pull more in a straight line with the arm for easier release towards the target. To make the arm pull straighter and snapping harder you also need to pull the disc closer to the chest and achieve a tighter angle in the elbow before the chop.

Train your leg push and hip twist so that your torso faces the target when the disc leaves the hand. Now you're facing a couple of dozens of degrees to the left of the target. You're twisted in a bunch with several muscles tightened due to being twisted into limits of flexibility. It's easier to your body and you won't feel as achy and tired after a day of throwing when you don't strain your body by getting it knotted up in weird positions.

Have fun with the leg plant change differences. It'll be an eye opener. Especially when you get a natural flowing sensation in the hip/shoulder co-operation when the timing is on. The shoulders don't start turning before the hips do but there's not a lot of pause between the starts either. It should become second nature and you won't need to think of it once you get the feeling of natural flow and being relaxed. The feeling's so good, natural and easy that you won't forget it. It's like learning to ride a bike.

Last edited by JR on Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thank you everyone for the input! Now that I know what my main problem is, I'm really looking forward to go out on the practise field trying to correct it.

A few more questions though:

Simply planting to the center of the tee or to the left of it and twisting hard with the hips and still staying relaxed in the beginning of the throw helps a ton

1. I have a hard time feeling my hips leading the toso. Will planting my last step further to the middle of the tee help with this? Would a delay of my torso waiting for the hips turning them also help?

your whole body is following through way off to the right. I do this a lot on accident too. Make sure youre following through towards your target.

2. How do I correct this? Leaning more to the left?

3. I'm a flexy guy, specially in my upper body. I can twist my waist so much that my chest is in line with my butt. Could this be a problem? Where in the throw should I use my upper body muscles the most? Often my body feels like a cold spaghetti using no mucles at all, but with a flat throw I'm tossing my drivers out to about 100 meters. And that's only 10-15 meters longer than my putters (!).

Argh, I miswrote there. In the quoted part it should've been planting to the _right_ of the center line for leaning your body to the left=hyzer.

It's personal for everyone but slowing down to one third speed should help in rearranging timing. You can look down to your hips in the x step to see when to start using shoulders but being after the beginning of the hip twist(explosion). I think that it's possible to feel things better if you wait a bit with the beginning of the shoulder turn. I'm not sure if it's the best possible timing for power generation. Whatever you do make sure that you're still accelerating with the hips and shoulders when the disc is a disc diameter short of being released with arm straight pointing towards target and torso facing target.

Your body control and acceleration ability determines how late you delay the beginning of the shoulder turn and how early you need to accelerate with full power. That's field practice time. Videoing should help self diagnosis.

To interject with Aaron I think that you shouldn't be falling to your right side. You should be falling forwards towards the target by bending from waist forward. With stomach and back muscles pushing you forwards. Simultaneously shifting weight forward with the legs. You also should be pivoting hard to the right by remaining upright. If you were looking down from above you should pivot clockwise not falling to the right.

Öystein Carlsen wrote in his thesis that the farther back your throwing elbow is in the reach back the more power you can have in the throw. He didn't mention that it requires proper timing, body control, and late acceleration. To paraphrase the articles on the main page if I understood correctly someone of the authors suggested trying to maximize power generation by trying to move as much as possible. Adding to that the standard advice of late power focus I think the answer to question 3 is to turn back as much as you can before you lose distance thanks to lack of power/acceleration ability/muscle power. That means that when you progress you can turn back even farther. If your best D doesn't come with full hip/shoulder twist back in the reach back.

If I understand correctly using the highest amount of power with the hips and shoulder turn for maximum acceleration should come when the disc is about 8-10" from releasing from your fingers.

Man_Utenbart wrote:Thank you everyone for the input! Now that I know what my main problem is, I'm really looking forward to go out on the practise field trying to correct it.

A few more questions though:

Simply planting to the center of the tee or to the left of it and twisting hard with the hips and still staying relaxed in the beginning of the throw helps a ton

1. I have a hard time feeling my hips leading the toso. Will planting my last step further to the middle of the tee help with this? Would a delay of my torso waiting for the hips turning them also help?

your whole body is following through way off to the right. I do this a lot on accident too. Make sure youre following through towards your target.

2. How do I correct this? Leaning more to the left?

3. I'm a flexy guy, specially in my upper body. I can twist my waist so much that my chest is in line with my butt. Could this be a problem? Where in the throw should I use my upper body muscles the most? Often my body feels like a cold spaghetti using no mucles at all, but with a flat throw I'm tossing my drivers out to about 100 meters. And that's only 10-15 meters longer than my putters (!).

I tried whipping my hips open yesterday, but even if they are almost max open, my torso and shoulder don't follow the hips. I have understand that the legs turn the hip, the hip turns the torso, the torso turns the shoulders etc. But in my case it's: The legs turn the hips, the hips ---> turns nothing..

I guess it's all about practising, but I have to say I'm getting really bored trying this out for the last two years with no brake through at all.

I'm really glad for all the help you guys on this site are giving me. Checking DGR out as often as I can!

Man_Utenbart wrote:Cool! Now I have some new things to try out for the next month or so

I tried whipping my hips open yesterday, but even if they are almost max open, my torso and shoulder don't follow the hips. I have understand that the legs turn the hip, the hip turns the torso, the torso turns the shoulders etc. But in my case it's: The legs turn the hips, the hips ---> turns nothing..

I guess it's all about practising, but I have to say I'm getting really bored trying this out for the last two years with no brake through at all.

I'm really glad for all the help you guys on this site are giving me. Checking DGR out as often as I can!

Thanks

okay...you *can* twist your hips without your torso, you have to lock your hips to your torso so when you close your hips (pivot to your left) your upper body faces the left). When you pivot right, your upper body follows. If your arms are by your sides, they should flap if you twist your hips fast.JK

Holy cow, I have been trying the opposite all the way. Beeing soft and fluid in that part of the body in almost the entire throwing motion. Guess I never have had body timing, but a good rip/snap every now and then.

I'm REALLY looking forward trying this out. It might be a big breake through for me. I hope.