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ROCKWELL: Good morning. This is the Lew Rockwell Show. Recently, I did an interview with Alex Jones, the maestro of Infowars.com, and I thought you might like to hear this interview.

JONES: Lew Rockwell, of the von Mises Institute, Ron Paul’s former chief of staff, one of the leading intellectuals for liberty out there worldwide, what he’s [Obama] doing there — and I want to get your take on this — is clearly recasting it that, if we vote for big government, that that’s America empowering government and then America is government. And he’s telling the young people, you’re part of that larger collective. I mean, this is direct Mao Tse-Tung. Paraphrasing quotes, for those that don’t know. I knew I recognized it yesterday and it just clicked. Those are Mao, basically Mao quotes. Seven of his tsars have quoted Mao.

Lew Rockwell, what does it say about where we are that they are now this brazen, sir?

ROCKWELL: I actually think, Alex, this is good news. I mean, they’re actually worried about people like us. If you want to get young people — I’m talking about smart, intellectually curious young people, not the younger equivalent of a sheeple, but smart young people — if you want to get them interested in something, tell them, “Don’t read that, don’t listen to that, pay no attention to that.” So, of course, the first thing they do is they want to find out what am I being told not to look at. So Obama is talking about Libertarians, Anarcho-Capitalists, people who correctly point out that the government is mankind’s greatest enemy on earth: that it is the predator, that it brings about all these wars, that it takes all our money, that it spies on us, that it puts us in prison camps. And, you know, the U.S., of course, the world capitol of putting innocent people in prison, far more than any other country on earth. We can just go right down the list. Of course, the U.S. is a tyranny. The government is a tyranny.

Still, the American people, or certainly enough of the American people, are still devoted to liberty, don’t want to be run by the government, don’t want to have their phone calls spied on by the CIA, and their e-mails and their texts and every other communication. So I think there’s more and more opposition, even though this is a very difficult era to be living in for people who believe in liberty. But I think that liberty is so creative, the government is so stupid that I’m very optimistic about the future, especially about the young people. And I’ll bet you anything, there are a lot of those kids at Ohio State, who listened to Obama, who today are looking up people like us. So I think he made a mistake. But, again, it shows, of course, his heart. It shows where he is. It shows the danger of, frankly, mass democracy, which has led to some of the biggest, worst governments ever. Hitler, of course, was elected, and many, many bad governments. That’s why we’ve had — Hans Hermann Hoppe writes about this in his great book Democracy, The God That Failed, about why the worst wars ever have come about under democracy, why the biggest governments ever come about under democracy.

JONES: Sure. Some new listeners are ignorant of the fact that when we bad mouth democracy, they think we want authoritarianism. Will you briefly explain the difference between a republic and a democracy, sir?

ROCKWELL: Democracy is an unlimited government where people believe that if you can get the majority to vote one way — and, of course, it’s never the majority. All these elections are decided by minorities and sometimes small minorities. But if the people in an election decide for anything, it’s legitimate. But, of course, that’s not true. People can decide to take somebody else’s property through a democratic election. That’s not legitimate. They can decide to start a war. They can decide to bring on a much bigger government under, say, Bush or under Obama, the two sides of the same rotten coin. You know, that doesn’t mean self government. What we believe in is self government. So sometimes in American history, traditionally, you have, yes, people voting in local elections and that sort of thing, but that’s not the same as a mass national democracy where you have a mass national media running things for the government, where we’re given no choice, where it’s Creep A versus Creep B. That’s American democracy.

JONES: That’s right. They finance two fake choices that are really the same flavor of cyanide-filled Kool-Aid and then ram it through. The republic puts absolute blocks in. You can’t take the guns. You can’t make somebody a slave. Then they argue, well, there were slaves, but it was the proper interpretation of the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution that ended up banning it. They put in the original Constitution, as you know, to ban slavery, but they couldn’t get it through then. It took more time. But it was the idea that was finally implemented.

You know what excites me about people like Lew Rockwell, Ron Paul, but also so many other people out there, especially young people? Everybody is starting their own radio shows, their own news shows. We post and link to reports that Lew Rockwell and his crew are putting out. They’re becoming very popular. All of us have to just engage the globalists, engage the corporate cleptocrats that use big government to control markets and shut down their competition and domesticate people.

Here is an MSNBC host, Perry — you remember a month ago, she came out and said your children belong to everybody. And they’re selling this idea. In Austin, people come up to us and say we shouldn’t have three kids in Whole Foods. They’re telling their forces, “Get aggressive.” Obama’s telling his anti-gun forces, “Get aggressive. Go out and get in people’s faces.” See, they need grassroots support. And they’re definitely becoming more authoritarian. They’ve set up this SecureCorps, AmeriCorps, Stasi force. They’re announcing they’re spying on everybody, and saying if someone says they hate the government, call the police on them. That’s why I start ranting. These are dangerous creeps!

Let’s play the clip.

MELISSA HARRIS PERRY, MSNBC HOST: We haven’t had a very collective notion of these are our children, so part of it is we have to break through our kind of private idea that kids belong to their parents or kids belong to their families and recognize that kids belong to whole communities. Once it’s everybody’s responsibility and not just the household’s, then we start making better investments.

JONES: Melissa Harris Perry — that’s a promo –

(LAUGHTER)

– they still run on MSNBC.

Why are they doubling down? Why does the FBI come out at the Boston bombing and say don’t look at other evidence, don’t look at other photos of, clearly, a drill happening? I mean, I think they are loosing touch — Lew Rockwell?

ROCKWELL: You know, first of all, this woman is lying. I guess like every phrase out of her mouth is a lie because they don’t actually believe that your children or my children belong to the community. They believe they belong to the government. They don’t believe they belong to our next-door neighbors or — (laughing) — or the people in the town we live in. They believe they belong to the government. And, indeed, our children have belonged to the government, according to the so-called law, for a very long time –

JONES: That’s right.

ROCKWELL: — if the Child Protective Services or some family court judge or whatever can decide to take away your children on a whim. So, yes, your children don’t belong to you as far as the government is concerned. Of course, as far as God is concerned, as far as human nature is concerned, of course, children belong to their parents. Of course, children don’t belong to the, quote, unquote, “community,” let alone to the rapacious and predatory government. But this is a totalitarian meme. They’re pushing totalitarianism right across the board.

When I can stomach watching MSNBC, which is not very often, I notice that these advertisements that they show are the most totalitarian things they have on there. I mean, they’re just openly Soviet like. So we need to know the enemy.

JONES: Well, that’s my question: Why? For those that don’t know history, this is direct Soviet. I mean, this is the stuff –

ROCKWELL: Yeah.

JONES: In fact, I mean, even the Soviet Union wasn’t that over the top on a lot of the –

ROCKWELL: Even Hitler didn’t say that the children belonged to the government but, of course, the Soviets did.

JONES: So why are they like going haywire in an orgy of government worship?

ROCKWELL: Well, they feel this is the time to push. And I think part of the reason is they feel they’re making progress under Obama, and they made progress under Bush. But they also are worried. They’re also scared. This is why they’re saying things that are actually crazy, too revealing of their real agenda. So this is good for us. It’s good that this woman is making this kind of a statement. As you know, thanks to you and others, it went around the whole World Wide Web. So this is good. It’s good that we know that these people have these kinds of ideas and what they want to put in effect through, of course, the government. Obama praises, you know, the locus of progress. It’s actually the locus of violence. It’s the headquarters of violence in society.

JONES: Look at North Korea.

ROCKWELL: Well, and look at the U.S. We don’t have to go to North Korea. We don’t have to go to the other bad countries. There are plenty of bad countries in the world. Let’s concentrate on our country, as you do. Let’s look at what the U.S. government is doing to us, what the U.S. government is planning to do to us. I mean, North Korea is not trying to read my e-mails — (laughing) — but Obama is.

JONES: Absolutely. The globalists that run America are the monkey on our back.

ROCKWELL: Of course, they keep talking — of course, they talk about North Korea, North Korea, North Korea, and then it drops. So it’s gone away and I guess it’ll come back again. North Korea is not the problem for us. Yes, North Korea is bad.

JONES: No, no. I agree with you. I’m just saying if Obama loves a total state, look at North Korea where they can’t even manufacture their own cars. Everywhere government becomes total, everything collapses into the dark ages.

ROCKWELL: Right. Yeah. I think that maybe they — who knows? Maybe they’ve learned from the experience of the Soviet Union or the experience of the other Communist countries, North Korea of whatever, that the power elite, the oligarchs are not well off enough in that kind of a system. So they actually want a Fascist system. The U.S. system is Fascist. They want to increase the Fascism. Communism has never been a threat here.

JONES: Now, Lew, I want you to walk through — you’ve got the Communists and Socialist models. But what I see us having is a corporatist model. As Mussolini said, that’s the definition of Fascism. You correctly peg it. So as head of the von Mises Institute and a man who has studied history — I see them using Socialism grassroots to socialize one sector of society and then play it off against the free-market sector that is parasited to death at over 50% — and France is over 80% — but I see them segueing where they’re just exempt from our laws overseas. The mega-corporations get the lion’s share of the taxpayer money and bailouts and government contracts. So it’s almost like Socialism and Communism grassroots with a police state, with off-shore Fascists exempt, above it. So it’s even worse than Fascism. What would you call this system they’re establishing? And I agree it’s more akin to Fascism but, I mean, what do we really call it?

ROCKWELL: Well, I think, Alex, you’re right, it’s a corporatist system. And we just have to look at Obamacare. Unlike, say, the system in Britain or France or other countries where the state directly owns — or Canada — directly owns and runs the medical system, which, of course, is horrendous, we have a Fascist system. So you had the actual Obamacare bill written by the big insurance companies, by the big hospitals, and especially by Big Pharma, run for their benefit. So it’s the big corporations, big government in alliance against the rest of us as tax victims and victims otherwise. So I think that is the model. And I think that whether we look at the national security state, which is all these big companies who are involved with the government in surveilling us, whether we look at the Military-Industrial Complex, any other aspect — like Mussolini said, the combination of corporatism and the state means Fascism. I think that’s the American system. It began really with Franklin Roosevelt, whose New Deal was based on Mussolini’s economic program, and it’s gotten worse ever since. And, of course, especially since 9/11, it’s been galloping worse.

So I still think, though, that most people, whether they’re in Boston or otherwise, are sheeple. It’s too bad. Wish it weren’t the case. But everything is done by minorities for both good and for evil. We don’t need the majority. The majority is just “go along to get along.” But there are minorities who are for, of course, this state and making everything worse. They are people openly for a totalitarian state. I mean, for something equivalent to Mussolini or Hitler or Stalin, those sorts of systems. They would use different words. They use different rhetoric — Mao Tse-Tung, as you say. But they don’t, of course, use the direct rhetoric of those regimes but that’s the sort of thing they’d like.

And then there are people who oppose that, who are knowledgeable, who understand what’s happening, who read, who think independently, who don’t let their opinions be controlled by FOX News or CNN or MSNBC or the rest of the Pravdas of this current regime or whatever. They don’t let their minds be controlled by that. They think independently and they think critically. They teach their children to do the same. This is the hope of America. Indeed, it’s the hope of the world. And in other countries, too, there are people like this. So I think more and more people, young people especially — Ron Paul is the main reason for this — has woken up young people in this country and all over the world to the problems we face. So I think it’s a race. This has been the race, by the way, since the Garden of Eden, or shortly after the Garden of Eden, between those who want power for the violence prone, the killers, and those who want the power to be with the families, with individuals, with communities and businesses, and peaceful activities, with the arts of peace versus the arts of war.

JONES: That’s right. Successful, smart people can’t keep people away and have so many friends and so many opportunities that you tend to just become solitary; whereas, losers crave and enjoy abuse of power that, for someone who is powerful — it’s nauseating. I mean, seeing people exercise undue power and abuse people is abhorrent to a normal person.

ROCKWELL: That’s right.

JONES: We don’t lust after power so we always end up under scum.

ROCKWELL: We don’t run the next-door neighbor. We don’t run the next-door town or the next country or whatever. But, of course, there are people who lust to kill, lust to rule. They enjoy sending young men out to kill and be killed. They get a charge out of it. Those are the people who tend to rise in government. And, of course, they’re the scum of the earth. So they’re our enemies. They are the parasites, as Obama indirectly describes them, who are just a pure cost to the human race. They’re not a benefit. They are a pure cost. And those of us who understand that, who oppose it, not with violence, because, of course, they’ve got all the guns and the tanks and the bombs and the sarin gas and the biological warfare and so forth — that’s the government. We oppose them with our minds, by refusing to consent, by educating ourselves, by finding others who agree with us, trying to persuade others. And in fact, the more we know, the more people will come to us for an explanation –

JONES: Sure.

ROCKWELL: — of what the heck is going on and what to do about it.

JONES: In your gut, looking at the geopolitical moves, what’s happening, seeing the accelerated degeneration of the Western elite where they’re even cutting each other’s throats politically — the establishment is becoming more delusional, which you see in the bottom of the decadent phase — what do you expect to see happening? Because I have an article right here out of Rolling Stone from last week: “Everything is rigged; the biggest price-fixing scandal ever. The Illuminati were amateurs. The second huge financial scandal of the year reveals the real international conspiracy. There’s no price the banks can’t fix.” And it goes into how the stocks, the bonds, the health care, the interest rates, everything is fixed by 16 Too-Big-To-Fail banks. It’s really about six megabanks that set the precedent. And then it just goes — he goes, “I apologize to conspiracy theorists; you’re correct.” And it’s a 14-page article. Well, I mean, you see articles about people colluding to rob a bank. That’s a conspiracy. The idea that big organized business isn’t in a conspiracy with government throughout history, isn’t the greatest danger throughout history, you ignore that at your folly. But it’s not just this article. I’ve seen — let’s not exaggerate — 15, 20, a whole bunch of articles the last week with big, prestigious writers coming out and going, OK, it’s true; big, mega-rich really do run things and they got their money by stealing it. I mean, I was talking to a reporter just the other day and, you know, he didn’t even know that Glenn Beck and Obama had supported the banker bailout in ’08. I mean, this level of ignorance!

What happens when the corruption gets so naked, so brazen that they say Mao Tse-Tung is our hero and parents aren’t parents and veterans are terrorists and Christians can’t talk about Jesus at a commencement or in the military? I mean, this is getting so Twilight Zone, Lew Rockwell, of LewRockwell.com, that I can’t believe it. How much more nuts is it going to get and what is the method? And out of that, where is this going?

ROCKWELL: Well, here’s what they face. It’s true that the big banks are running everything. We live in a bankocracy; in Europe and in Asia, too. Big banks are extremely powerful.

But they run up against the laws of reality because there are certain things they’re doing that have an economic impact. No matter what they hope or think, or no matter how many people they fool, the kind of money printing that is going on will bring them down. Now, of course, it’s going to hurt us, too, but it will bring them down. What they’re doing cannot continue. The laws of reality will prevent it. So therefore, I think they are coming down — the big banks, the whole financial system — because of the things they’re doing. Bernanke can’t actually change the laws of reality. He can’t change the laws of economics. They apply to him just like they apply to all of us. Banks are all, of course, fractional reserve. They money’s not there, folks. Not only the people in Cyprus’ money isn’t there; your money isn’t in the bank either. So the more people understand this, take their money out, try to avoid dealing with the banks, try to have private cash uses for their money and so forth — they hate ATMs, for example. They don’t like you taking cash out and using it in everyday transactions. You’re just supposed to use checks and digital transfers. They can’t stand against the laws of economics and reality. So I would say, in the long term — not the short term — but in the long term, we have every reason to be optimistic.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JONES: Let me raise this point. Syria; the La La Land level of the government buying two billion, 200 million bullets, admitting its for us in their own Army documents that we’ve shown; and now it’s over 7,000 anti-mine giant black-armored vehicles I see driving around Austin. Their response is it doesn’t exist; Alex Jones is insane. Now, there’s congressional hearings. They’re freaking out, still saying, Alex Jones, he’s nuts; it’s his fault. I mean, articles every day, as if I have something to do with it. Sure, we broke it and forced it out there with Matt Drudge of drudgereport.com, but then — and you say, what does that have to do with Syria. Then you’ve got then saying, we’ve got to invade Syria because al Qaeda might get chemical weapons, when our government and NATO, two years ago, began inserting al Qaeda in to commit war crimes. And then they call Obama a peacenik. I mean, it’s reaching La La level. What do you make of Israel now going into day two, day three of blowing up military barracks, and then our media is like, how dare Syria; they’re so violent.

(LAUGHTER)

I mean, it really is entering a cuckoo-for-Cocoa Puffs level.

ROCKWELL: No, I’ve noticed any number of stories saying, how dare Syria say this is an act of war. How dare they say that when Israel bombs them? So let’s look at what Syria is. I’m not defending the government of Syria any more than I defend any other government. But it’s the last secular Arab government in the world. It’s not Islamists. They don’t have any al Qaeda types there. So what does the U.S., Turkey, Israel, France and Britain do? They create a group of rebels in Turkey at the various U.S. Air Force bases in Turkey, as Sibel Edmunds points out. They’re put into Syria; they’re armed by the U.S. and its cohorts. Probably they were given sarin gas because the sarin gas that was used, as even a U.N. official said today, was used by the rebels, apparently, not by the Syrian government. This group is all al Qaeda types. Which the U.S. has always used al Qaeda. It used it against the Russians in Afghanistan — bin Laden — and funded by the Saudi Arabians. They used it against Gadhafi, who was also a secular Arab government in Libya. They’re using it in Syria now to make trouble, to wreck, to destroy. So the al Qaeda people in Syria have said, when we take over, we’re going to kill all the Alawites, the small, very unusual Muslim sect that is most of the governing people in Syria; we’re going to drive out all the Christians. It’s already happened in Iraq. These are countries that have had Christian communities from the time of the Apostles. They’re being destroyed and driven out. And so they’re just going to have an Islamic state. Why is the U.S. supporting that? It wants trouble.

JONES: Yeah. They think we’re so dumb. They want to grope my wife and children to fly while they publicly run al Qaeda. And it turns out the [Boston] bombers were watched for five years, the supposed convicted bombers already, who they said confessed, the one when he’s in the hospital, with no proof, overthrowing the Sixth Amendment. I mean, Lew, it’s crazy that they’re saying give your rights up because of al Qaeda while our government — I’ve said Obama is the global head of al Qaeda right now.

ROCKWELL: Unfortunately, the American people will buy the most unbelievably stupid and low-level propaganda. All the arguments they’re making against Iran, which are all lies, are exactly the same things they said against Iraq. They just changed the word — (laughing) — “Iraq” to “Iran.” Apparently, most people believe it.

However, even though they’re not being directly taxed for these wars, which would be the normal cause of war weariness, because, of course, everything’s being printed up at the Fed, still I think more and more Americans are tired of the wars. They’d like to get out of Afghanistan. And they don’t want to go into Iran. So the more that we can stoke these feelings, the more that we can promote the cause of peace — and Ron Paul’s new — the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity is going to be a big factor in this. The more we can promote the cause of peace, the more trouble they’re going to have, the more trouble they’re going to have with, you know, again, Syria — maybe poor Syria is out, is gone — but with Iran and with other countries they’d like to target. So we have to promote the cause of peace.

JONES: Sure. I mean, what about resisting in a peaceful way, civil disobedience? I mean, I think it’s time to go into the airports with big printouts admitting that our government runs al Qaeda and saying, how dare they want to grope us and violate our rights; it’s an act of domination. They’re flipping the al Qaeda script onto Libertarians now, saying we’re the threat. How dare you, the government that runs al Qaeda, then say you want to grope me looking for al Qaeda, when you have the history of running these groups. That’s what I’m getting at here, is I want to call them on their hoax, call them on their baloney.

ROCKWELL: I certainly believe in the principle of civil disobedience. We all have that right. I wouldn’t actually tell anybody to do it because, of course, you take a chance of going to jail, and the jails are — the U.S., as I pointed out earlier, is the capitol of jailary (sic) on the entire planet. And these are vicious, vicious cages that they put human beings in. So I would never tell anybody to do that because of what the consequences are. But I certainly would support anybody taking their own rights into their hand and practicing civil disobedience. We have that right.

JONES: After Lew Rockwell leaves us, I’ll have time to play Ron Paul from Chile, basically talking about how this could be the collapse of society and how government is basically destroying our society. Similar things were also said by the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage. But Ron Paul and Jim Rogers on government, quote, “They’ll use force and they’ll use intimidation.”

And, you know, I think the good news here is, whether it’s Lew Rockwell, Alex Jones, Ron Paul, Nigel Farage, Rogers, people that are into liberty, world wide, this is popular. And it’s very, very exciting that liberty is rising while tyranny is becoming so unpopular. And I think that’s why — Lew Rockwell, in closing, I want to get your take on this — why we see them saying, of course, the state did everything; of course, the state owns your kids; of course, the state made the sun come up this morning.

(LAUGHTER)

I think they’re trying to hide their behavior in plain view as some desperate attempt at normalcy bias. Do you think that’s working?

ROCKWELL: No, it’s not working. And, again, I think Ron Paul is the key reason. He’s got a world-wide movement, not only among young people — and it’s older people in this county, too — but all over the world. And all of the usual suspects said, oh, he’s retired, thank goodness; now he’s gone; forget him. But, of course, he’s stepped up everything he’s doing, what he believes in, and that is fighting against the Federal Reserve, fighting against big government, fighting for our liberties, fighting for the cause of peace and against wars. Again, his new Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity. His podcasts; many, many speeches. He’s so in demand on college campuses. All over this country, two and three times a week, he’s speaking at college campuses. It doesn’t get publicity but he’s influencing young people. And he’s got even more exciting plans that haven’t been announced yet that are going to be a world-wide bombshell for goodness.

Ron Paul, keep doing it.

And those who are interested in Ron and all the others, Alex and everybody else who’s part of this liberty movement, we are on the march. The other side is sick. It’s sick in every sense. It’s decaying. And I don’t believe they have the stamina to stick with it. We have the young on our side.