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Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

To be fair, while paying 90k/pw is way excessive it kind of make sense. If you have the money and can maintain it is a very working way (maybe not prudent, but it gets the job done) to getting better good players into lower leagues. I mean, IRL Bent would never had said no to that contract

Also interesting result in terms of AI behaviour, i.e. that you can overrule the normal considerations of reputation, like/dislike etc if you hike someone's salery enough.

However, will be interesting to see if the super board/manager can manage to run the club into major deficit but I doubt it though.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Even that can only bring in a finite amount of money, even if its high. Especially as prices in L2 won't be that high. They had a massive starting balance (presumably increased by now) and that will see them through. Admitedly I have no idea where income (which will be mostly gate reciepts until the championship at least) stands in relation to the wage expenditure at the moment so they may still be making a massive profit and there's nothing to worry about but I doubt they can afford many more players at such high rates. and existing players will be prone to wanting a better relative wage. Even if large wages do push the club into a loss the balance comfort cushion is so great that unless they get stuck for years in the lower leagues (which doesn't look like happening this time) it'll be fine. Anyway as high as 90k is in L2 its still a realistic wage for the game as a whole so we can't assume that means that individual wages will increase to 150-200k plus or something in the premiership just because logic would otherwise dictate that in normal circumstances a team will be paying much more there then in L2. They may just have reached the higher wage level early because of their circumstances.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by StewartJRobertson

I actually laughed out loud when i read that Bent was on 90k p/w. That has to be the most ridiculous thing that has happened in this experiment.

I've seen evidence in my game of why this happens - wage demands are always relative to the wage budget. I can remember a few occasions where a player demanded a certain wage from me, I got a higher budget from my board, and suddenly everyone's demands went up. I guess this is an extension of that - the players know the Bandits can shell out the cash, so they demand it.

Mind you, we complained that they didn't in FM07 - I don't really care if they pay massive wages as they aren't going to be into financial difficulties.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

It may seem to be one of the dafter things to have occured during the experiment, but perhaps it actually shows the mentality of the AI with the actual attributes they've been given.

Whereas the Bandits are willing to build and spend slowly, the Sheriffs want immediate success, even if it is to the detriment of their finances.

Lets see what effect it does have.

How can you say that the Bandits are willing to build and spend slowly? If anything they are even more desperate for success than the Sheriffs.

Just to be clear, im not bothered by the massive spending of either team. It will be interesting to see what effect it has on players transfers in the future. I wonder if they are setting a dangerous precedent here. Will all future signings be demanding these kind of wages and will the Bandits be able to sustain it.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

You've got to remember the Bandits have got genuine gate income coming in, they don't have bored billionaires running the show. If the gate income is covering the wages then it is financially prudent, even if at first glance is seems excessive.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

I think its great that the game is accurately portraying what a RL manager and RL club would do, the AI is throwing its weight and cash around as would happen in real life with all that money coming in.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by Wegason

I think its great that the game is accurately portraying what a RL manager and RL club would do, the AI is throwing its weight and cash around as would happen in real life with all that money coming in.

Is that accurate though? 90k p/w in league two? There is no precedent to suggest that is accurate. This is obviously a unique situation with the Bandits. Personally i dont think it would happen in real life, no matter what financial strength the club had. 90k is more than the entire wage budget for clubs at that level. Money is still money and no matter how much they have, this has to be noted as being significantly extravagant. On wages of 90k a week i also reckon they could have attracted better quality than Marcus Bent. If they dont get promotion then these wages have been wasted.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by StewartJRobertson

Is that accurate though? 90k p/w in league two? There is no precedent to suggest that is accurate. This is obviously a unique situation with the Bandits. Personally i dont think it would happen in real life, no matter what financial strength the club had. 90k is more than the entire wage budget for clubs at that level. Money is still money and no matter how much they have, this has to be noted as being significantly extravagant. On wages of 90k a week i also reckon they could have attracted better quality than Marcus Bent. If they dont get promotion then these wages have been wasted.

It's similar in a way to Man City offering Kaka £500k a week, they are clearly trying to punch above their weight by shelling out extortionate wages.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by StewartJRobertson

Is that accurate though? 90k p/w in league two? There is no precedent to suggest that is accurate.

There is no precedent to suggest anything. There is no precedent for the combination of that league position, that average attendance and that level of cash. In such circumstances, you cannot meaningfully argue from what has happened before, and have to look at whether the decision makes sense in the circumstances. I think it does: with no money worries for the time being, the club's focus has to be on promotion.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

The question has to be asked though, with a willingness to pay those wages in League Two, if they get promoted, will that willingness see them promote every season until they reach the Premiership? They may be attracting quality players in the Championship by offering an absolute fortune to them. If they do promote that quickly, we may see real life players we've heard of playing for the Bandits in the Premiership.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by Jack Rudd

There is no precedent to suggest anything. There is no precedent for the combination of that league position, that average attendance and that level of cash. In such circumstances, you cannot meaningfully argue from what has happened before, and have to look at whether the decision makes sense in the circumstances. I think it does: with no money worries for the time being, the club's focus has to be on promotion.

You are jumping on half a quote here mate. I do go on to say "This is obviously a unique situation with the Bandits." Im not saying that there should or could be a precedent. You are deliberately taking my point and changing its context. What i was saying is its impossible to say that the AI is being accurate because this is what would happen in real life. If you are going to quote me in future, please actually read what i posted in the first place. Cheers.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by Wegason

The question has to be asked though, with a willingness to pay those wages in League Two, if they get promoted, will that willingness see them promote every season until they reach the Premiership? They may be attracting quality players in the Championship by offering an absolute fortune to them. If they do promote that quickly, we may see real life players we've heard of playing for the Bandits in the Premiership.

That would be awesome.

I think that is a real possibility on my own dafuge save my club was bought as we took the step up to the championship and could buy top class players straight away and I believe that my club could have taken the step up to premier league even with an AI manager.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

A little sidenote for future ideas or whatnot:

If the players would have obscure nationalities (Wallis & Furtuna, Bhutan, Somalia) and their reps being what they are (minimum), then wouldn't it take them longer to leave considering
a) when creating them you'd tie them for many years with the club and since they wouldn't receive work permits, their contracts would remain as they are for a long time
b) it would take some time for the players to get international recognition to ever play for their obscure countries, thus getting the work permits required to move within the English leagues (as I'd fathom other leagues would have lower interest in them)
c) again, it would take a number of years for some of the premiership or championship sides to get belgian or polish feeders enabling them to buy the players, and putting them on a course of loan>reputation gain>international call-ups>work permit
d) finally, if none of the above actually happened, then in 5 years all of them would gain British citizenship allowing them to freely move and expand themselves at still a young age of 22

With these in mind, the goal of the Bandits retaining their players and reaching with them fame and glory could be more attainable, at least from a theoretical point of view. But as I said, just a mere idea

And kip, your threads are awesome (as I've also read the 2007 one fully), I don't know when you have the time man, all I can say is cheers and keep up the good work!

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

In the 07 experiment the bandits were extremely well off, but never utilised that wealth, so it's very nice to see the club spending big on a player and with wages so early in the save.
It appears there has been a minor change or 2 under the hood of FM
Players dropping down divisions for a fat paycheck seems a fair reflection of the game today.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by aemud

A little sidenote for future ideas or whatnot:

If the players would have obscure nationalities (Wallis & Furtuna, Bhutan, Somalia) and their reps being what they are (minimum), then wouldn't it take them longer to leave considering
a) when creating them you'd tie them for many years with the club and since they wouldn't receive work permits, their contracts would remain as they are for a long time

Not really, no. It would take at most a couple of years for foreign clubs to notice them, and they'd be snapped up by clubs from countries that don't require work permits.

b) it would take some time for the players to get international recognition to ever play for their obscure countries, thus getting the work permits required to move within the English leagues (as I'd fathom other leagues would have lower interest in them)

And again, they'd move on to Italian, Spanish, French and German clubs, and would probably never play in the English leagues. Well, at least until several years later when the likes of Chelsea would shell out a fortune for them.

c) again, it would take a number of years for some of the premiership or championship sides to get belgian or polish feeders enabling them to buy the players, and putting them on a course of loan>reputation gain>international call-ups>work permit

And of course, by that time they'd be playing for Milan and Real and Bayern, so it's a moot point.

d) finally, if none of the above actually happened, then in 5 years all of them would gain British citizenship allowing them to freely move and expand themselves at still a young age of 22

Replace "British" with "Italian" and/or "Spanish".

With these in mind, the goal of the Bandits retaining their players and reaching with them fame and glory could be more attainable, at least from a theoretical point of view. But as I said, just a mere idea

It sounds like a nice idea, but unfortunately it's unattainable. Sure, they'd have two or three, maybe even four years with at least a few top class players, but by the time they reach European-class football their starlets would have been gone all the same.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Even if this experiment is kind of under extreme conditions I still think that this issue with the high wages in lower leagues is something that has to be tweaked by SI games. There has to be an attribute for "negotiations skills" for AI managers. Not everyone is good at it, in the same way as players can demand higher wages if they "smell" if the club that is interested in them has a lot of money managers must be able to predict what the player is prepared to play for in spite of their wage demands. As it is now this recommendation that assistant managers give "sign at any cost" seems to be taken quite literally by the AI managers.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Can't wait for next update. Got a feeling a shock may be in the offing. Maybe a shock for the Bandits. Hope i'm proved wrong but could promotion be difficult this year.
Ps - 10 pages and only 2 seasons. Amazing

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Is there any way that any of us can help you with the writing up of reports Kip? It seems as if with all the extra detail that you have added in this experiment, you have given yourself a bit of an epic task. If there is anything we could do to help, im sure you wouldnt be short of volunteers.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

I must admit with such long breaks between updates im struggling to get into the new experiment.Anyone else think less detailed reports in quicker succession would be better?

Can't say I agree - the format is absolutely fine as it is, yeah it may be a bit slow but anyone who followed the FM07 version will know that patience is a huge virtue when it comes to this experiment.

Originally Posted by wisescummer

I think less detailed but more reports is the way to go. This experiment does seem to be dragging on a bit, without much experimentation.

Admittedly this experiment isn't rapidly going through the updates like others, but at the end of the day its quality not quantity that makes an experiment worthwhile. Kip was ill for a while and also has a job + family life to contend with, all take precedence over FM.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

I don't think I'd want anything missing from the current format, even if it made it considerably quicker. Admittedly this gap has been a bit much, but there are mitigating circumstances, what with Kip's miraculous recovery from swine flu and so on. That said, if it's not here by tomorrow, heads will roll.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

There are some outrageous comments flying about in here. Anyone that's run an experiment should sympathise with kip - the amount of data and reports he has to do will take days not hours imo. Well worth the wait

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by Walcott\'s Wonderkids

Ye of little faith.

Can't say I agree - the format is absolutely fine as it is, yeah it may be a bit slow but anyone who followed the FM07 version will know that patience is a huge virtue when it comes to this experiment.

Admittedly this experiment isn't rapidly going through the updates like others, but at the end of the day its quality not quantity that makes an experiment worthwhile. Kip was ill for a while and also has a job + family life to contend with, all take precedence over FM.

In your own time Kip, it will be worth the wait.

Good to see you back WW

All the people that want less details and more reports, it'll be a bit harsh but, can you please create your own db and holiday the game for yourself please? We are looking for a story here, not only an experiment. We are (The mighty Bandits) not a created team that you read pages of updates every week. The bigger the success, the longer we have to wait

Kip, I, talking only for myself, won't even mind if you write the report one month later. I, as an avid follower of the '07 experiment and as the proud creator of the facebook fan group, would like US to write history all over rather than romping through updates. I'll be one of the happy bunch when we celebrate our first EPL trophy while the Sheriffs were drooling over our success.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

My comment seems to have attracted undue criticism. I wasn't criticising Kip. I was merely saying that if there is too much detail in the reports he could leave a few out. I was trying to suggest he could make it easier for himself, while still fulfilling the goal of seeing how the AI deals with the bandits and Sheriffs over a long period. This is a fantastic experiment, but perhaps its scope has become too wide, thus frustrating the overall aims.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

I'm wondering if at this rate we will have enough data on this experiment in two years time, i.e. by the time FM11 is released. The 07 experiment went on for 2 years. If this experiment is taking longer to do (this may not be the case), it might be wise to carry it on for 3 years instead of 2.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

I don't think I'd want anything missing from the current format, even if it made it considerably quicker. Admittedly this gap has been a bit much, but there are mitigating circumstances, what with Kip's miraculous recovery from swine flu and so on. That said, if it's not here by tomorrow, heads will roll.

Firstly, that's idiotic.

Secondly, £500 a month wouldn't even pay half my mortgage. Hell, my monthly season ticket into work is £350 a month so £500 doesn't go far. Methinks you haven't left school yet/live independently of your parents.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by Wegason

Firstly, that's idiotic.

Secondly, £500 a month wouldn't even pay half my mortgage. Hell, my monthly season ticket into work is £350 a month so £500 doesn't go far. Methinks you haven't left school yet/live independently of your parents.

When the report comes, it will be worth it.

Uni student here saying that I live on less than 500 pounds a month (around $1000/month here). That's assuming I sit on my arse all month and not drink, not smoke, not eat out at all.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by 5ergio

We are (The mighty Bandits) not a created team that you read pages of updates every week. The bigger the success, the longer we have to wait

Kip, I, talking only for myself, won't even mind if you write the report one month later. I, as an avid follower of the '07 experiment and as the proud creator of the facebook fan group, would like US to write history all over rather than romping through updates. I'll be one of the happy bunch when we celebrate our first EPL trophy while the Sheriffs were drooling over our success.

I couldn't agree more!
From time to time we had very long breaks in the 07 experiment as well, and in my opinion that just makes it even more enjoyable when the update arrives.

Also, the suggestion of people helping out Kip by writing certain parts of the reports, doesn't sound good to me. One of the reasons why I'm enjoying this experiment (and the 07 one of course) so much, is Kip's excellent writing style

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Helping out wouldn't mean writing the narrative, it could just consist of doing donkey work inputting stats. Also, there must be some other people on here who could write well. I don't think anybody is having a go at Kip, we all appreciate how much work this is and that he has a life. Were all just making suggestions to help him out, because looking at it objectively it seems he is having trouble getting the reports out.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Well as much as a lot of the time some of us (well me anyway) think of this mostly as following the fortunes of our teams... This is an experiment first and foremost, of more then simply how the teams do. I may be personally following a few (though thats increasing) areas but many follow those I don't so I appreciate the depth provided for anything anyone might want to follow, especially as I'm interested in far more now which I'm glad are there. And as an experiment it helps to have a wide range of things to test. Better to start off with lots then realize later there's something you should have tracked but couldn't, especially if some patrons of this fine thread have wished for it. Also he's running far more leagues now so it'll take longer to get to the report writing in the first place and more places to look for the players and stuff he needs to report on. I know thats not an issue with people but that alone means reports will be less frequent then last time without things like flu and busy periods at work getting in the way. Admitedly while I didn't expect that it'd be this long after the teaser for the rest to appear that's just the way it goes. You can't rush genius. Especially busy genius.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Unfortunately I have to agree with those hoping for quicker updates. I understand that Kip has made this experiment a lot more extensive and that means more detailed (and excellent) reports as well as more processing time.

However, we're currently getting through around one season a month. That means it will take at least 12 months before the starlets even retire. The original experiment took on a whole new dynamic once this had happened and we had many many seasons looking at not only the progress of the Bandits, but the managerial/coaching careers of the retired starlets. At this rate we'll only have 24 seasons done in a real time two year period, which is only a fraction of what was achieved in the '07 experiment.

Unfortunately I feel that the only way to speed things up is for Kip to dedicate more time to it, and it's unfair of anyone to ask him to do that as we all have real lives to live. Unfortunately for him his excellent experiment and writing style has meant that we all want an experiment that is as extensive and addictive as the last one.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

To the post which brings up helping to write, I think it would ruin the suprise and shocks of the updates, i wouldn't want to help write it just because it'd ruin it for me. We have to realize Kip has been ill during most of the wait for the update. Once this updates out, i suspect that he'll be giving us updates quicker. Think it as an american tv season. You watch a few episodes then it takes a winter break for 3-5 months, then when its back, its worth the wait.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by Wegason

Firstly, that's idiotic.

Secondly, £500 a month wouldn't even pay half my mortgage. Hell, my monthly season ticket into work is £350 a month so £500 doesn't go far. Methinks you haven't left school yet/live independently of your parents.

When the report comes, it will be worth it.

firstly, my tongue was burrowing a deep hole into my cheek throughout. Secondly, I am, in fact, earning a whopping £570 a month - a figure which puts me in line with about 2m fellow Britons - from part-time work which has to fund me through my entirely financially independent life and part-time studies. Admittedly no children and so on, but still! Kip has a choice to make; his family or us. But anyway, let's be stoppin with the fussin and the feudin, this is a thread of love!

I think we should also remember that this experiment probably (hopefully) won't last as long as the last one. We got so far with that one because the Bandits just plain ol' refused to be successful, but if the improvements evident in this experiment keep coming, then they'll be the top side in the world in no time, and the Sheriffs will settle wherever they settle (hopefully doing all they can, Dick Dastardly style, to steal the Bandits' crown, but if not, that's why it's interesting!), and we can see how the original superstars do in management (by which point reports will be drastically shorter), and then when they're done, that's that. So 20 years or so of this intense, detailed stuff, then a smooth ride through another 25 years, and then a satisfying conclusion (if Kip's computer survives those mighty save files). It's all good.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by markymarky

firstly, my tongue was burrowing a deep hole into my cheek throughout. Secondly, I am, in fact, earning a whopping £570 a month - a figure which puts me in line with about 2m fellow Britons - from part-time work which has to fund me through my entirely financially independent life and part-time studies. Admittedly no children and so on, but still! Kip has a choice to make; his family or us. But anyway, let's be stoppin with the fussin and the feudin, this is a thread of love!

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

that's right. I have been blessed with a tuition fee waiver so only have to buy note-taking materials and books, which I get second-hand as cheap as possible, then £260 rent (yeah it's a bit of a craphole, but it's livable) and £60 council tax leaves me with about £60 a week for the rest, which is workable. Housing Benefit rules will see me have £30 a week extra once I turn 25 (just now I get pretty much no Housing Benefit), but don't get me started on that particular topic of my recent ire. I'll never stop.

Maybe we should have a "discuss your household budget" thread. Perhaps with a contribution from the Bandits chairman to make us all jealous...

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by iacovone

There are some outrageous comments flying about in here. Anyone that's run an experiment should sympathise with kip - the amount of data and reports he has to do will take days not hours imo. Well worth the wait

I reckon the vast majority of the comments are in sympathy with Kip. With the exception of a couple of morons who maybe posted once and were never seen again, i think the followers of this experiment fully understand the workload that has gone in to creating this experiment. I cant speak for everyone, but it seems the general consensus is that we want kip to make this as easy as possible on himself so he himself continues to enjoy his work and isnt geting too bogged down and bored with the amount of work he is giving himself.

My suggestion that a few people help him out with it has also come under fire. Again i am not saying sack Kip and lets take over. The guy is a legend because of his writing style and dedication. If it were up to me id give him a knighthood. All i am suggesting, kip if you are reading this, is that if there is any way that you see fit for us to help, then feel free to let us know. If not, fair enoughm not really sure what we could do specifically, but the offer is there. You have a legion of followers ready to do your bidding. Say the word.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

StewartJRobertson, before you start calling people morons after making the presumption that im a one time poster and have no right to express my opinion because of that, how about looking back at the previous experiment where i actually posted more than you. I followed the first experiment from the beginning to the end and have thus far with this experiment aswell. If i was actually criticising kip's work then yes i would expect to be called a moron! However, I was not and was merely offering an opinion on the current experiement all be it a negative one which im sure kip himself wouldn't even mind as he has often expressed his desire for peoples feedback. I understand Kip has other commitments and im not stupid enough to think this experiement is going to be the most important in his life but this experiment is also a stroy to some people and is difficult to follow with such long breaks between posts and hense why i said less detailed reports may be a good idea.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Originally Posted by TB36

StewartJRobertson, before you start calling people morons after making the presumption that im a one time poster and have no right to express my opinion because of that, how about looking back at the previous experiment where i actually posted more than you. I followed the first experiment from the beginning to the end and have thus far with this experiment aswell. If i was actually criticising kip's work then yes i would expect to be called a moron! However, I was not and was merely offering an opinion on the current experiement all be it a negative one which im sure kip himself wouldn't even mind as he has often expressed his desire for peoples feedback. I understand Kip has other commitments and im not stupid enough to think this experiement is going to be the most important in his life but this experiment is also a stroy to some people and is difficult to follow with such long breaks between posts and hense why i said less detailed reports may be a good idea.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

If I was Kip I wouldn't bother anymore. You're all filling this thread with a pointless bloody argument. Can I suggest that from now on unless there's a discussion or question or prediction etc related to the experiment that people keep their ore firmly out.

Anyone new reading this thread and hitting the last 100 posts is gonna give up.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

So what, we live in a free country. People should be able to post on whatever they want. Anyway, most of the above discussion is related to the experiment, namely how slowly its going. I think people are more likely to give up because we're two and a half months in and have had two seasons.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

It wouldn't be great for discussion. How about everyone just relaxes and waits for the update. If you don't like that its going to slow, don't post in here. If you don't mind, great, lets talk about how the Sheriffs are gonna win the Premier League before those loathsome Bandits

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Season 2010-11

Club reports – Summer Transfers

Following hugely successful seasons for both the Bandits and the Sheriffs, that saw them win their respective leagues, it was anticipated that both would strengthen their squads ready for the next challenge. For the Sheriffs, that meant the Blue Square Premier, and for the Bandits, that meant league football in League Two.

Bandits

Having secured promotion to League Two, the Bandits took a hard look at their squad and decided that plenty were simply not going to make it at the higher level. In total, ten were released in the first two days of July, all on free transfers. Plenty of the top twenty from last season were included, but they were lower down the last and/or aging to a point where non-league football was all they could strive for.

The important thing was building a side capable of challenging in League Two. As a guide, a CA of 100 puts you in the upper echelons (37 players in League Two), a CA of 110 puts you in the top ten in the league, and a CA of 120 makes you a star.

With that in mind, Dream Manager began to assemble his new squad. His first signing was a bit inauspicious, 31 year old striker Chris Templeton arriving on a free transfer from St. Johnstone. With a CA of 71 and falling, he was unlikely to make much of an impact. Star striker Liam Dickinson (53 goals last season) had little to worry about.

Next came Clark Keltie, costing £8k from Lincoln, and the 27 defensive midfielder is reasonable – a CA of 88 is unlikely to reach the PA of 105, but he makes for a good squad player. Following him came Matt Phillips, a 20 year old winger costing £80k from Wycombe. His CA of 89 also makes him a decent player in League Two, but his PA of 127 means he could grow with the club for a good while.

And then, out of the blue, the manager signed a very familiar name – Marcus Bent. The striker was now 33, and having been left out in the cold during Birmingham's doomed Premiership campaign last season, he decided to move on, joining the Bandits for a paltry £30k. With a CA still at 121, he instantly became one of the stars of the division, and the prospect of him joining forces with Dickinson had the fans salivating. It had been a slow start to the summer, but business had most definitely picked up.

Looking to the future, the manager then picked up the unattached Tom Miller, a 20 year whose CA of 67 could rise to 128 in the future. Costing nothing, he had nothing to lose. He then turned his attention to the defence, signing 25 year old Michael Townsend for £250k from Cheltenham. His CA of 95 was very healthy.

Two more would arrive before the window closed, and the first was another prospect, and another free tranfer – Martin Hunter is a 20 year old keeper, with a CA of 63 and a PA of 110. If the Bandits remain in League Two, he could become a real player in the long term, but hopefully by the time he gets there the club will have outgrown him.

The final transfer was an expensive one, but probably the best capture of the entire summer. Somehow, the manager convinced Norwich to part with Mark Burton, one of their brightest prospects, for £1m, a lot of money for a League Two club but absolutely value for it. Burton is a versatile defender who can play anywhere across the back, and has a CA of 113, putting him in at the very highest level of League Two. And the most incredible thing is that he is just seventeen years old, and has plenty of time to aim at his PA of 163. Capped at England youth levels, he is a stunning signing.

And with that, the manager closed his book. Last season, he had just three players with a CA over 90, but he has added to that considerably this summer, building a solid squad and including a couple of absolute stars. It should be enough to secure safety, but how far can the likes of Marcus Bent push them?

Sheriffs

The Sheriffs had the most powerful squad in the Blue Square South by a distance last season, and ended the season with six players above 80 CA, the only six in the division. In the Blue Square Premier, the average number of 80 CA players was four, so already they had a decent set of players, but in this league there are also around twenty players with 90 CA, and a few in three figures. Nonetheless, a solid squad is a good starting point – the summer gave an opportunity to add some star quality.

As with the Bandits, the Sheriffs released a group of players that could not make the step up a division – six were let go. Believing the squad to be talented already, the manager decided to take the approach of finding the right target or two instead of making wholesale changes, and in the end signed only two players.

But both were worth waiting for. Nathan Ellington's contract with Derby had expired, and somehow he was convinced to relocate to the south coast and join the Sheriffs – still only 29, the striker's CA of 114 was ten higher than anyone else in the entire league. His signing was a major coup – he would be the sixth best player in League Two, so he is clearly playing at a level below that which is capable.

That got the fans exceptionally excited, and the second signing was pretty decent too – left winger Ryan Smith arriving from Grimsby for £110k. The 24 year old has a CA of 102, with a PA of 120 being very reachable, and is the third best player in the division.

So the Sheriffs took their squad, allowed some of their youngsters to improve (some rose to the 90 CA mark), and signed two of the three best players in the league to drive them forward. Will it be enough to ensure another successful season?

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Club reports – August-December

Bandits

It was a new horizon for the Bandits as they played league football for the first time. Pre-season had not been kind, their ambitious attempts to take on the likes of West Ham, Rangers and Sevilla resulting in heavy defeats, but a single goal was enough to ensure that they took three points from their opening game, away to Lincoln.

Next up was a great chance for a cup shock, a home game with Championship Stockport in the League Cup, and a 3-2 victory in their first ever game in the competition gave the home crowd plenty to sing about. And they didn't stop there – a 5-0 hammering of Barnet in their first home league game giving them hope that this season could be yet another success story.

Remarkably, they would go on to win their first eight league games, to sit proudly on top of the league, far beyond the expectations of their fans. To add to the joy, they dispatched another Championship side, Barnsley, in the second round of the League Cup, although they finally tasted defeat, losing 2-1 at home to League One Swindon in the Johnstone's Paint Trophy.

A trip to Turf Moor to face Burnley saw the League Cup campaign come to an end with a 2-1 defeat, the side unable to beat their third Championship opponents of the season, and the defeat seemed to knock confidence a little, as they lost five league games in ten. However, they took maximum points in the other five, and the lack of draws meant they remained second, behind only Bournemouth, who were having a fine season.

By the time they faced their south coast rivals, their FA Cup campaign had ended, defeat to League One Colchester following a win over Blue Square North Boston.

With the Bandits and Bournemouth clear promotion rivals, they finally met in the league, the Bandits delighting their home fans with a thumping 4-0 win to move close to their beaten opponents. A draw at Accrington in the following game was a setback, but their fantastic home form continued with a remarkable 8-0 destruction of Stockport, Marcus Bent scoring five in a match that broke all sorts of club records.

The Bandits ended the year with two more wins, over Bury and Exeter, the latter taking them back to the top of the league, with both they and Bournemouth having a healthy lead over their rivals. It had been a great first half to the season.

Sheriffs

The Sheriffs also came into the season off the back of promotion, and were looking to follow the Bandits up into the league structure. They were mainly reliant on last season's team, making only two signings, although Nathan Ellington was expected to have a big impact.

The new level certainly didn't seem to faze them in their early season – three wins opening the campaign and continuing the feelgood factor around the club. But their winning streak was not as lengthy as the Bandits, as they drew with Torquay before losing to York.

Those were minor setbacks, however, and seven wins in their next eight put them firmly on top of the league before the cup season began with a 3-0 cruise over Staines in the Setanta Shield, and competition they now had high hopes for.

After a draw with Ebbsfleet, two more league wins put distance between them and their rivals, and a 1-0 win over Lewes ensured that they would reach the first round proper of the FA Cup, the only competition in which a meeting with the Bandits was a possibility.

By the end of November, their lead had been extended in the league, three more wins pushing them further away from the pack despite a 2-0 reverse at Oxford, and they were still in both cups – wins over Weymouth and Thurrock putting them in the quarter final of the Setanta Shield, while two friendly draws in the FA Cup, against Newport County and Blyth, resulted in comfortable victories that pushed them into the big time of the third round. That the Bandits had fallen at the second round was icing on their cake.

December opened with a rare goalless draw with Salisbury, before a win over AFC Wimbledon put them back on track. Revenge was in the air as the FA Trophy began – the first round opponents were Oxford, one of only a few sides to beat the Sheriffs this season, and they were dispatched after a replay.

The year was then completed in perfect style, with 2-0 and 3-0 wins over Kettering and Southport. They would enter 2011 with a healthy lead at the top of the Blue Square Premier, and still in three cup competitions. It had been a perfect half season.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

The Bandits have a history of making few changes in January, and with the season going so well, they continued in that vein, letting no-one go and bringing in just two players.

The first was journeyman 32 year old centre back Darren Ward, a £40k capture from Portsmouth, and a brilliant signing given that his CA remained at a very healthy 110, putting him head and shoulders above most of the rest of the league.

The second was less inspiring, but cost nothing – Mark Phillips was let go by Brentford, and the centre back makes for decent cover with a CA of 90. At 29, he is a short term signing, but increases the size of the squad, a sensible action given that the Bandits can afford the wages.

Players in last season’s top 20 who have dropped out of the top 20:
Inglis, 19, GK, 63-127 (+5)
Klein-Davis, 21, ST, 62-69 (+2)

20 year old Kilbey may be the best player in the squad, but he is well backed by a pack of new signings – seven of the club's best twelve players are new in this season. Those that remained from last year are young and improving – the manager seems to know what he is doing.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Club reports – January-May

Bandits

In stark contrast to the Sheriffs, the Bandits had only the league to concern themselves with, and it was looking highly promising that both they and Bournemouth would be playing League One football next season. All they had to do was keep it going.

A 4-0 thumping of Lincoln was the perfect start to 2011, but a slip up away to Barnet brought Bournemouth back into play. Their incredible home form continued with a 5-0 win over Hereford, but draws against Brentford and Notts County were not ideal.

At this point, Bournemouth were breathing down their necks, with Barnet only six points further back. But with three teams automatically promoted, signs were still very good – there was a big gap from Barnet to the rest of the pack.

Four wins and two draws cemented their position as promotion shoo ins, although Bournemouth were keeping up the pressure win a fine run of their own, so when the Bandits lost to Aldershot, their south coast rivals leapfrogged them to the top of the league. With ten games to go, promotion was almost assured for both teams and Barnet, and the real issue became whether another trophy could be lifted.

A draw with Yeovil allowed Bournemouth to pull away slightly, but four wins in a row was too much for the Cherries to compete with, and the Bandits returned to the top of the table with five games left.

All of which made the clash between Bournemouth and the Bandits a crucial one, but a goalless draw at Dean Court ensured that the Bandits stayed clear. Three wins and a draw in the final four matches were enough to seal it, especially after Bournemouth lost to Wycombe, and for the third season running, the Bandits were lifting a league trophy.

In the end, they won the title by four points, with Barnet in third placed, twelve points behind them. All three were comfortably promoted, as the playoff teams started another eight points behind Barnet.

It had been another stunning season for the Bandits, and after three promotions, they were now just two rungs from the Premiership. At what point does the rise slow down?

Sheriffs

The Sheriffs had promotion aspirations of their own, and had certainly had a fantastic start to the season, but the fixture congestion was leading some to wonder whether more bodies should have been signed in January. With three cup competitions still holding interest, the players would be in for a busy time.

Their 2011 began with a trip to face Bristol Rovers in the FA Cup, and despite putting up an excellent fight, a 2-1 defeat saw the end of one of their cup dreams for another season. A 3-3 draw with Woking followed in the league, their previously watertight defence having an off day, before the fixture list became more congested after a 1-1 draw at Telford in the FA Trophy.

They were playing in a different competition every match, and next up was a Setanta Shield quarter final with Ebbsfleet. In the end, it was an easy victory, a 3-0 result pushing them closer to a cup final appearance. But back in the league, another draw, this time with Chelmsford, ended their long stint at the top of the table, Kidderminster taking over with twenty games remaining.

With only one automatic promotion spot available, and the Sheriffs having already lost one playoff battle in their short history, there was now real concern that their cup exploits would keep them in the non league structure for another season. It would certainly be a fight now. But before they could put things right in the league, the FA Trophy replay against Telford had to be played, a 2-0 victory keeping that competition alive in their season.

2-0 wins over York and Dagenham put them back to the top of the league, but by this point their players were taking to the field every three days. Next up were two more cup fixtures – first Kidderminster, one of their chief league rivals, were knocked out 2-1 in the FA Trophy, taking the Sheriffs to the quarter final, and then a tricky trip to Luton in the semi final of the Setanta Shield resulted in a tremendous 4-0 victory. Ironically, the final would be played at the Bandits' ground.

Luton had an immediate chance for revenge in the league four days later, but a tired Sheriffs side edged them out 2-1, before Torquay took advantage of their weariness, beating the Sheriffs by the same margin. Now both Kidderminster and Torquay were applying pressure to the Sheriffs at the top of the league.

Wins over Crawley and Stevenage gave them a little bit of breathing space before the cups took over again, a 2-1 win over Chelmsford taking them to the semi finals of the FA Trophy. Their form continued with two more wins in the league, and by the end of February their status as favourites for the title were reestablished.

All of this was great preparation for the Setanta Shield final, a tie with York that proved exceptionally close, until young Sheriff striker Ben Smith popped up with the winner to add to the fantastic season they were having. Winning a trophy the Bandits never secured was simply a bonus.

A win and two draws in the league ensured that they had a decent lead with the FA Trophy coming to it's conclusion, allowing them to focus on a trophy that the Bandits did currently hold. Ebbsfleet came to town for the first leg of the semi final, and the two stars, Ryan Smith and Nathan Ellington, scored the goals that ensured a very healthy 2-0 lead. Their opponents scored early in the second leg to make the tie tense, but were unable to get the second goal they needed to force extra time, and the Sheriffs were off to Wembley.

Before all that, however, they were looking to secure promotion, and five wins in their last nine games were eventually enough to take the title with room to spare – Torquay ended ten points back, while Kidderminster and Dagenham failed to keep up their challenge, twelve points behind the eventual winners, the latter going up via the playoffs.

And so to the final challenge of the season, the FA Trophy final against Kettering. Like the Setanta Shield final, the match was tight, but goals from Afzal and Philliskirk shortly before half time put the Sheriffs in a commanding position, and one they would not give up despite Anthony Elding's second half red card. The 2-0 win ensured that the Sheriffs would be taking home three pieces of silverware from their final season as a non league club.

It had been almost perfect – the league was won with ease, and with over a hundred points, the two non league cups had both been won, and they even reached the third round of the FA Cup, even further than their great rivals. Their only disappointment was seeing the Bandits remain a league ahead of them, but both sides are looking exceptionally strong.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

The forwards were immense – Marcus Bent scored 35 goals in 43 games, Dickinson managed 24 in 51, and Kilbey 19 in 46 from midfield. Left winger Dean Moxey managed 22 assists, and Ben Parker another ten from left back. It seems the Bandits were awesome down that flank.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Unsurprisingly, Nathan Ellington had a big impact in the Blue Square Premier, scoring 28 goals in 41 games, but he was well supported by Anthony Elding who managed 28 in 62, adding 21 assists in a fantastic season.

Notes: Continues to play in Scotland, picking up his second consecutive SPL title, while playing to a decent standard. Brazil continue to pick him for their youth side, but have yet to give him a full cap.

Notes: Another unspectacular season with Fulham, but his ability has not gone unnoticed, and after a series of snubs, has now appeared for Germany, playing six times and scoring once. Has a bit of a problem with discipline this season, with eleven yellow cards.

Notes: Has an excellent season with Lyon, although Marseille pip them to the French title. He does pick up a French Cup medal, however, and is already a regular for Holland, playing fifteen times and scoring once. His CA made huge strides this season.

Notes: He was the subject of much transfer speculation this season, with countless bids being made by other Italian clubs and rejected by Sampdoria. In the end, he stayed, and played well even though his club slipped to tenth. Has now played nine times for Italy.

Notes: Once again, he plays reasonably but perhaps below the standard expected of someone with his ability. That may not be helped by the presence of Idiot Goalkeeper behind him, but West Brom still comfortably survive in twelfth. He makes his debut for England, playing twice.

Notes: After scoring or getting the assist for thirty goals last season, his much reduced number was quite a disappointment this season, which went along with Chelsea's slip from first to fourth in the Premiership. Does better at international level, with seven goals in seventeen caps.

Notes: Spent the first half of the season begging for first team football at AC Milan, who were refusing to play him, and finally got his wish when Chelsea came in with a massive offer for him. He has started well at his new club, but is still to be capped at international level.

Notes: What a sensational season. After a massive CA rise, he scores eighteen goals from the wing, manages many more assists, and plays a massive part in Liverpool lifting the Premiership for the first time in over two decades. His fine form makes him impossible for England to ignore, and he scores twice in his first five internationals.

Notes: An excellent rise in CA and a stunning season see him score nineteen goals from midfield, while averaging 5.45 tackles per game, fantastic for a midfielder. He is comfortably Boro's best performer in a season where they finish ninth, and he is recognised with his first six England caps, scoring three times.

Notes: Another terrific season for the man who has chosen Portugal as his home at club and international level. Sporting are again pipped to the league by Benfica, but he does pick up his first trophy with the Portuguese Cup. Has now scored four times in eleven appearances for his country.

Notes: Has the highest CA of any of the former Bandits, although his performance levels don't really reflect that, after a season in which he did not contribute as much as he would hope to. But ironically, Liverpool raise their game (with the help of two other former Bandits), to claim the Premiership crown for the first time in 21 years. Now has nine England caps to his name, with six goals, an excellent record.

Notes: Having experienced relegation with Hull, it was inevitable that he would move on in the summer, and Liverpool offered the sufficient money to see him return to the Premiership instantly. He managed to raise his CA considerably, which was lagging behind the rest, and played a decent part in Liverpool claiming the Premiership, scoring at a healthy rate from midfield. He also made his first three appearances for England, and appears to have his career back on track.

Notes: After a remarkable 30 goals in La Liga last season, it seemed impossible for him to do any better, but he managed 36 this time, at an increased performance rate too, although it was only enough to help his club to fifth. They did, however, claim the Copa del Rey, and he has now chosen Spain at international level, scoring three times in his opening three games. He is some player.

Notes: Continues to improve both his CA and his performance levels, and manages 29 goals in an excellent season. His club, however, slip to 14th, and he seems to be their only bright spark. Despite those struggles, he continues to be recognised by England, and has five goals in seven appearances.

Notes: After scoring 51 goals in a season, expectations were high, and yet somehow he still managed to exceed them, scoring a frankly ridiculous 58 goals in 48 games, proving that this league is now way below the standard he needs to be playing at. Gets the man of the match award in nearly half his games, leading his side to the SPL title again, by twenty points this season. But despite his exploits, Capello continues to turn his nose up and refuses to cap him for England.

Notes: After Hull's relegation, many expected him to leave in the summer, but the club fought to keep him, and he began the season in the Championship, unsurprisingly destroying allcomers and taking Hull to third. But in January, the board went over their manager's head to accept a huge offer from Sampdoria, so he was off to Italy, where he is still settling in. He is yet to be capped, and Hull faded after his departure, finishing sixth and losing in the playoffs.

Notes: After two transfers last season, he finally settles with West Brom, but hardly sets the world alight as his club finish 12th. Capello, however, has seen something in him, and given him his first three England caps.

Notes: After helping Hull get relegated from the Premiership, it seemed to everyone as if he would find himself another club in the summer. But his falling CA and terrible attitude seems to be putting everyone off, and as a result he was forced to spend the entire season in the Championship. He can't even play well there, and Hull fail to get promoted, losing in the playoffs. Remains uncapped, and that may never change.

Notes: After an extremely poor scoring record in the Premiership last season, Hull were hoping that he would be more effective in the Championship. Unfortunately, he wasn't, so he lost his place in the team, as his abilities faded. Winning a cap ahead of Striker 3 would be a travesty that fortunately has not occurred yet.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Liverpool win their first top flight title in 21 years, winning the Premiership by five points from Arsenal, perennial runners up. The traditional big four are back, with United third and Chelsea fourth, Everton's European exploits preventing them from repeating last season's third spot.

At the bottom, it was a depressing story of the three promoted sides going straight back down again. The only team that came close to them was West Ham, five points clear, but 16th placed Reading ended a massive thirteen points from the drop zone. Those three sides just weren't good enough this season.

Arsenal managed to claim some silverware again, beating Chelsea 2-1 in the FA Cup final to retain the competition, and this season one side from outside the Premiership – Wigan – reached the quarter final, although that was because the draw was kind enough to keep them away from the top flight sides, and Spurs then hammered them 4-0. That wasn't the only beating the Premiership sides dished out – Liverpool put six past Accrington in round three, Fulham seven past Bristol Rovers in round four, and Arsenal eight past Plymouth in the same round (the irony being they had drawn at the Emirates and this was the replay). Plymouth, incidentally, lost the Championship playoff final, so were nearly in for a season of pain.

Spurs made up for losing the Carling Cup final 5-4 last season by going one better, beating Man City 2-1, while again no side from outside the Premiership reached the quarter finals.

In Europe, Barcelona returned to the summit with a 3-0 demolition of surprise finalists Werder Bremen, who had enjoyed a remarkable semi final win over Bayern – having lost the first leg 3-0, they won by the same score in the second leg thanks to a late goal, and then added two more in extra time for a 5-3 aggregate win. United and Chelsea were the last English participants, losing in the quarter finals.

Incredibly, the UEFA Cup final was a local derby, Everton beating Liverpool 2-1 in extra time. Everton had reached the Champions League group stage but fallen into the UEFA Cup, while Liverpool's disappointing fifth place last season left them in the secondary competition.

Not many changes this season, with the top four staying as they were. A couple of swaps further down the list, but it was only really the relegated clubs that suffered big losses (Wolves apart, who already had a low reputation). The Premiership is a bit of a status quo at the moment.

Of the sides coming up, Watford and Leeds grabbed the automatic spots, but both are far behind anyone in the top flight and will really struggle. Preston, up via the playoffs, have the bonus of having been in the Premiership two years ago, a yo-yo effect that has helped their reputation, and may allow them to survive.

Overachievers : FulhamUnderachievers : EvertonTitle Prediction : Liverpool to retainRelegation Prediction : The three promoted clubs to all drop for the second season running

Heaton is an excellent keeper for Yeovil and tops the list, but otherwise it is the Bandit show, with four entries. Kilbey goes from being the best player in the Blue Square Premier to the second best in League Two, and both he and Burton stick out because of their youth and potential. Bradford should've been more of a force this season.

Plenty of players that remain on the list from last season, and Luton will be especially disappointed in their final position of twelfth in the league. Nathan Ellington is, unsurprisingly top of the pile with a CA that would put him on the top ten list of League Two.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Summary

Three promotions and three title winning campaigns for the all conquering Bandits, who are now just two rungs from the Premiership. Undoubtedly life will become more difficult as they rise up the leagues, but right now their manager is taking them up faster than anyone could have predicted.

As for the Sheriffs, their season was near perfect – the league title, coupled with the two non league cup competitions in their last season there. They even reached the third round of the FA Cup – a great achievement. It will be interesting to see if they can follow in the Bandits' promotion footsteps until their great rivals slip up or reach the Premiership.

The starlets have mostly found clubs they are happy with, but Striker 3 might want to leave the SPL – 109 goals in two seasons have not been enough to earn an international cap – astonishing.

As for the idiots, it looks like their careers are never really going to take off – they lack the desire to better themselves, and consequently the starlets now have a great deal more ability. How long until they all get frustrated and start to kick up a fuss?

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Tamer Ozdemir (Konyaspor/Turkey, 17, DC, 98-197) is already a regular for Turkish lower league side Konyaspor, although he is struggling to play well. He has appeared for the Under 21s already.

Previous tips

Loic Pelletier (Troyes/France, 18, MC, 108/197) gains another fourteen points of CA, and has now finally made his debut for Troyes, appearing a handful of times this season and doing fine.

Steve Tucker (Motherwell/England, 18, D RC, 106/197) only gains six CA points, a disappointing tally given his huge potential, and still only plays sporadically for his club. His performances are fine when he does get a chance.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Kaka (AC Milan/Brazil, 29, AM C, 194/195) stays joint top of the list, but still can't quite reach his potential. He plays reasonably well, but not superbly. Could be doing much better.Kaka

Lionel Messi (Barcelona/Argentina, 23, AM RLC, 194/195) stays just below his potential, as with Kaka, and also like Kaka has a good but unspectacular season. He does however win the Champions League trophy.Lionel Messi

Cristiano Ronaldo (Man United/Portugal, 26, AM RL, 194/195) is the third player on the list to sit of 194 CA, one short of their potential, and he perform slightly better than his two main rivals.Cristiano Ronaldo

Iker Casillas (Real Madrid/Spain, 30, GK, 191/192) is still only 30, despite seeming to have been around for twenty years. His CA remains static, but he has a fantastic season, winning La Liga and conceding only 21 goals in 53 games.Iker Casillas

A very good year for Spanish football sees Barcelona and Real Madrid top the list, although Liverpool also have six stars when you include their three former Bandits. CSKA Moscow appear on the list for the first time.

Re: AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

Right, hopefully the extensive delay in the report (early April was the last seasonal update - there has been a World Cup report since, but still, that's a long time!) is softened slightly by the few new bits and bobs in today's. The eagle eyed amongst you will have noticed:

1) The Sheriffs have a 'Best and Worst' section, with screenshots of the whole first team squad, including seasonal stats - peruse at your will.
2) All the starlets and idiots are now screenshotted (my new favourite word...)
3) The world view includes not only clubs relegated from the top divisions, but those promoted to it - wait for the minnows to arrive.
4) The final section, the distribution of world stars, is codified to look pretty, and include the former Bandits (thanks to zyzzy for the suggestion and VonBlade for telling me how to do it).