So how's the crop of 150-160 mm high end 650b FS bikes looking for 2013?

I've been focused on skiing (season started in October) so haven't been spending time on the forums. I'm potentially in the market for a non-faux-bar, light & stiff frame with 150-160 mm travel approx on both ends

Not interested in modifying a 26er frame, since I'll be running large volume 650b tires.

Not interested in low-end bikes. Not interested in a reduced travel Mojo HD or converting a 26er w/ skinny tires and/or shock to lower the BB.

I'm a Turner owner and fan, will demo a Burner when I can & see if 140 could be enough for what I'm after.

I've owned Intense bikes, not thrilled with the company (and both my local Intense dealers stopped carrying the brand since dealing w/ Intense sucked so much) but I'll keep an open mind about the Carbine.

For a budget alu bike, my Norco Truax is fine but I'm not feeling the urge to get a 650 Norco frame although I guess that's a backup option.

I think I heard that Pivot is coming out w/ a 650b Mach 5.7 carbon, correct? That would be a strong candidate.

I don't recall anything rumored from Santa Cruz.

What brands am I missing?

Originally posted by bucksaw87
I still fail to see how mustaches, fixies, and PBR are ironic.

There is NO mention form Pivot regarding a Mach 5.7 with 650B (I wish) Current model (5.7C at least) can fit a smaller 650B tire and the shock has to be shimmed.

I believe SC will be jumping in soon and I'm hoping for some sweet 650 announcements from Pivot and Ibis perhaps at the Sea Otter classic near the end of April. Would love to also see a 650 Giant Reign. 2014 will be 650B gone wild is my prediction.

You are exactly right, I don't think people realize just how big the 650b steamroller is going to be in 2014-15. The floodgates are opening. What we are seeing now is barely a trickle. I predict the death of 26" in anything other than DJ style bikes within those 2 years.

You are exactly right, I don't think people realize just how big the 650b steamroller is going to be in 2014-15. The floodgates are opening. What we are seeing now is barely a trickle. I predict the death of 26" in anything other than DJ style bikes within those 2 years.

need 160mm coil el Guapo or Chilcotin, still waiting. Want to build up some DL31 rims... maybe brant has warmed up to the idea now?

Add to this 2.4 DHF, BB, MM, Butcher etc. Maybe carbon main frame after seeing the santa cruz carbon nomad vid....maybe.. But no carbon rear tri for me. ~And absolutely NO NEED for 150mm or less travel~

Thanks. OK, confirmed what I thought...very few good options currently. I'd forgotten about the rocky mtn. The Rune is a cool frame--I followed those threads last year--but is too heavy for this application ie overlaps with my truax.

Guess I have to wait until sea otter.

Originally posted by bucksaw87
I still fail to see how mustaches, fixies, and PBR are ironic.

It will be interesting to see what happens this year. There are a lot of bikes being built but many people have no idea that 650b even exists. I don't know of a single shop here in SLC that carries even one 650b bike (to be fair I only regularly visit a couple of them). Either we'll see a lot more offerings next year or it'll be the end. IMO it would have made more sense to appeal to/build for the XC market first (that's where the most people/$ are) but 150+mm travel seems to be what everyone decided the 650b world needed.

It will be interesting to see what happens this year. There are a lot of bikes being built but many people have no idea that 650b even exists. I don't know of a single shop here in SLC that carries even one 650b bike (to be fair I only regularly visit a couple of them). Either we'll see a lot more offerings next year or it'll be the end. IMO it would have made more sense to appeal to/build for the XC market first (that's where the most people/$ are) but 150+mm travel seems to be what everyone decided the 650b world needed.

-Walt

Not to veer off topic, and I'm certainly no expert, but isn't the XC market already pretty thick with 29ers?

Sure, but they (29ers, that is) are over-represented on MTBR and among the die-hards. You make most of your money selling bikes to MUCH less hardcore riders who are doing plain-jane XC riding. Those folks are looking to move up/on from an older 26" hardtail or short-travel FS bike. Plenty of opportunity to sell them on a 650b wheel in an XC travel range.

Selling bikes to "quiver" riders seems like a great idea if you spend all day on MTBR where we're all obsessed, but in the real world most people just have one mountain bike and it's for riding XC.

-Walt

Originally Posted by Khaspir

Not to veer off topic, and I'm certainly no expert, but isn't the XC market already pretty thick with 29ers?

So how's the crop of 150-160 mm high end 650b FS bikes looking for 2013?

Originally Posted by Walt

It will be interesting to see what happens this year. There are a lot of bikes being built but many people have no idea that 650b even exists. I don't know of a single shop here in SLC that carries even one 650b bike (to be fair I only regularly visit a couple of them). Either we'll see a lot more offerings next year or it'll be the end. IMO it would have made more sense to appeal to/build for the XC market first (that's where the most people/$ are) but 150+mm travel seems to be what everyone decided the 650b world needed.

Interesting indeed. Predictions that 26" will become obsolete and at the same time predictions that 27.5" could be doomed in a year.

As far as 27.5" for XC market, it seems that the thinking was 29" owns that already, while 27.5" works well in the 5-6" travel area, so build the best bikes for the platform. Scott is the perfect example: did not at all milk Nino Schurter's success on the 27.5" HT and are selling only 29" Scales but no 27.5". No 27.5" Spark planned AFAIK. Meanwhile 26" eliminated from Genius line while the 29" and the 27.5" compete with each other.

Definitely agree more 27.5" product necessary: Spesh, Trek, Giant and SC bikes needed in XC, trail, AM and even DH models this year or next. That would do the trick in itself to make the wheel size credible and viable. That or continued success in XC racing, and new success in Enduro and DH and the resulting publicity.

Notwithstanding all the *****ing that the industry is hyping the tweener wheel size and forcing it down the public's throat, the truth is that it is still exotic and cult, popular on MTBR and some of the bike mags. But low supply in the retail shops, not too common on the trails. Yet.

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Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

We are selling out of Altitudes before they even hit our showroom floor. If you live in Canada and want a carbon Altitude especially size L you need to go to a dealer now, Rocky is sold out. I've never seen anything like it, never before have we sold bikes before they even went in to production. I live 40kms away from the Rockies, geographical area obviously plays a roll.

A lot of shops bought one or two bikes just to dip their toes in the water, now they are kicking themselves in the ass. We bought as many as we could. Folks I'm telling you, it's a freight train coming full speed ahead. At the doubter above that subscribed just for laughs, dude you won't even be around in two years, I'll be the one standing here saying "I told you so".

Major bike companies have seen the future, they have cancelled 26" production runs for 2014 and beyond. The future is 650b and 29er. I'm looking forward to the Rocky Mountain Element 650b.

I'm confused - they are sold out, but you should hurry to your dealer? For what?

I wonder how many they made, that is quite impressive even for a small company. I guess they're kicking themselves for not making more!

-Walt

Originally Posted by Saddle Up

We are selling out of Altitudes before they even hit our showroom floor. If you live in Canada and want a carbon Altitude especially size L you need to go to a dealer now, Rocky is sold out. I've never seen anything like it, never before have we sold bikes before they even went in to production. I live 40kms away from the Rockies, geographical area obviously plays a roll.

A lot of shops bought one or two bikes just to dip their toes in the water, now they are kicking themselves in the ass. We bought as many as we could. Folks I'm telling you, it's a freight train coming full speed ahead. At the doubter above that subscribed just for laughs, dude you won't even be around in two years, I'll be the one standing here saying "I told you so".

Major bike companies have seen the future, they have cancelled 26" production runs for 2014 and beyond. The future is 650b and 29er. I'm looking forward to the Rocky Mountain Element 650b.

I'm confused - they are sold out, but you should hurry to your dealer? For what?

I wonder how many they made, that is quite impressive even for a small company. I guess they're kicking themselves for not making more!

-Walt

Dealers buy most of their bikes without pre-orders from riders, otherwise you'd see empty dealer showrooms. Manufacturers require minimum order numbers to qualify as a dealer for a brand.

For the OP, IMO, the Banshee Rune having optional 26"/27.5" setup looks well designed for covering XC to DH park days. 160mm travel this year and a major upgrade in pivots from traction killing bushings to roller bearings for the 2013 models. And the Norco Range 27.5 (650b) has a very aggressive horst link design which should well balance pedaling and climbing squat with 160mm travel having a high anti-squat rate, and very active rear braking design.

For the OP, IMO, the Banshee Rune having optional 26"/27.5" setup looks well designed for covering XC to DH park days. 160mm travel this year and a major upgrade in pivots from traction killing bushings to roller bearings for the 2013 models. And the Norco Range 27.5 (650b) has a very aggressive horst link design which should well balance pedaling and climbing squat with 160mm travel having a high anti-squat rate, and very active rear braking design.

Banshee has done a terrific job on the re-design of the new Rune, Spitfire, and Prime. The KS Link suspension is excellent and efficient with performance figures shockingly similar to the DW Link Mojo HD and Giant Reign Maestro. They classify it as VPP but it's action is very different from Intense or SC. A Rune can be built in the 31-32lb range and a Spitfire 27-28lbs. Personally I will most likely be getting the 140mm Spitfire as my next bike. I test rode the Prime 29'er for a day to experience the KS Link and it was awesome IMO.

Honestly I really thought the new Altitude was gonna be the one for me but I have now ridden 3 Rockies with the horizontal shock setup including the new 29'er Instinct and they have done nothing for me. I also didn't like at all what I saw about the new Altitude on Antonio Osuna's suspension blog. http://www.microsofttranslator.com/b...tude-2013.html

So how's the crop of 150-160 mm high end 650b FS bikes looking for 2013?

Originally Posted by Walt

I wonder how many they made, that is quite impressive even for a small company. I guess they're kicking themselves for not making more!

Good news/bad news/ good news.

Good, that there is hot demand for these bikes. Maybe that will spur the big boys into action.

Bad, that some of these early adopters sold out so soon. They lost out on sales; unhappy consumers didn't get they wanted and expected 2013. The shops will have no inventory on hand to demo to the curious and expand the demand base.

Good, the demand might suffer a hit, but it won't go away. More bikes by the current and other bike companies could/should be produced 2014, and the sales should be solid.

We shall see.

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Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

Shops are in my experience pretty conservative about ordering new high end bikes without preorders so if they've really reserved the entire production run already that is *awesome*. I need some true 650b DH tires for my 160mm bike so if lots of them sell that will be a good thing.

-Walt

Originally Posted by rideit

I get what he is saying, Walt. Shops (and customers) can't order more, but shops that did order haven't gotten them yet, so there is a chance a customer could reserve one of those.

I think my 150 mm Scott Genius is a great XC as well as Trail machine. I'm not hitting any drops bigger than 3' and the lock out makes for a great climbing rig. I'm sure that any of the FS rigs with lock out (CTD, etc...) will climb well. The bikes are kind of hard to find though, probably because so many savvy Early Adopters are jumping on what is available.. I may still have a line on other Scotts. It will be sweet in a year or two when most or all companies are putting out 650 rigs.

So how's the crop of 150-160 mm high end 650b FS bikes looking for 2013?

Originally Posted by AgentPhatrick

I think my 150 mm Scott Genius is a great XC as well as Trail machine. I'm not hitting any drops bigger than 3' and the lock out makes for a great climbing rig. I'm sure that any of the FS rigs with lock out (CTD, etc...) will climb well. The bikes are kind of hard to find though, probably because so many savvy Early Adopters are jumping on what is available.. I may still have a line on other Scotts. It will be sweet in a year or two when most or all companies are putting out 650 rigs.

I decided not to pull the trigger on a new bike this year; will stand pat with 3 yr old Jamis 650b2 for 2013. Too much effort to find one; prices too high.

I'm thinking/betting that a year from now there will be more variety to choose from, including Spesh, Trek, Giant, and Santa Cruz. I'm hoping but not holding my breath that the prices will come down.

I'm dreaming of a sub 25 lbs 140mm or 150mm carbon trailbike @ no more than $4k USD. Dreaming or smoking too much?

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Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

Personally, I've never been more happy with any bike that I've had than I am with my Carbine. I rode it as a 26er for about three weeks before I built my main 650b wheel set and it was a great bike, but as a 27.5" bike this thing is exceptional IMO. I run somewhat light components,a Fox 36, a dropper and as big of tires as I can find; My large comes in at 29lbs and that could easily be dropped to sub 28 for races. I do a lot of climbing and descending here in AZ and keep saying there is just nothing more I could want out of a 6" all around bike.

Re: Rune--as I've said, I'm not interested in a bike that ends up only 1 lb lighter than my nearly new Truax/Totem. My 650b frame purchase would be intended to replace my sub-30 lb Alu nomad. That's why I specifically referenced 150-160 mm rear, and I'm open to 140 if necessary and the geo is low and slack.

The new Rune is a great frame, just not what I'm looking for

Originally posted by bucksaw87
I still fail to see how mustaches, fixies, and PBR are ironic.

Whats really cool about converting my Carbine is that I can use my 2012 Fox Float 36 and works mint! sure had to invest in another wheel set and dropouts but all is good,because really still appreciate 26 under certain conditions and can still have that option without having to invest in another complete bike!

Well, we can't get the Cube in the US so the logistics getting one here are most likely not worth it.

The original poster wants low and slack and would consider 140mm. Turner Burner (and he likes Turner) sure hits the mark there. Banshee Spitfire does also if you want to set it up like that (can also be set up high and steep and also use 26" wheels if so desired). Norco Sight 140 also is pretty low with a 13.3" BB and the head tube can easily handle an angle set. Good thing about the Turner (perhaps the new Banshee also) is if he didn't like it the frame would sell in a heartbeat.

It will be interesting to see what happens this year. There are a lot of bikes being built but many people have no idea that 650b even exists. I don't know of a single shop here in SLC that carries even one 650b bike (to be fair I only regularly visit a couple of them). Either we'll see a lot more offerings next year or it'll be the end. IMO it would have made more sense to appeal to/build for the XC market first (that's where the most people/$ are) but 150+mm travel seems to be what everyone decided the 650b world needed.

-Walt

I was in Jans in PC the other day and they had a few Scott Genius 650b's fyi, very impressive in person.. The 700 sl weighed 25 lbs?!

It will be interesting to see what happens this year. There are a lot of bikes being built but many people have no idea that 650b even exists. I don't know of a single shop here in SLC that carries even one 650b bike (to be fair I only regularly visit a couple of them). Either we'll see a lot more offerings next year or it'll be the end. IMO it would have made more sense to appeal to/build for the XC market first (that's where the most people/$ are) but 150+mm travel seems to be what everyone decided the 650b world needed.

-Walt

Well sort of, it's actually too late now for it to be the end. When manufacturers decided to jump on to 650b it was much more than a 1 year plan. Bikes are planned and designed at least a year ahead of release. Even if 650b just does okay in 2013 it's already too late to put a halt to what is coming in 2014. Get ready for hardtails, and dual suspension XC bikes, etc etc. I know the 2013 riding season has barely even begun but the reality is it's already too late to stop what is being produced for 2014, there simply is not enough time to go back to the drawing board.

Yeah, I guess if he's talking Turner money he just might want to have a look at the Carbon Altitude frame only option. With the Ride 9 adjustable geometry that thing can get low and slack (66.62) for sure + it's 150mm travel....and light.

That is a good point, and it's also worth noting that some of the crop of 2010-2011 or so bikes went over poorly (ie showed up for dirt cheap at various internet liquidation sites) without killing the wheel size. It would be interesting to know how many 650b mountain bikes are out there and how many have been selling. Going by MTBR, there must be tons, but I've yet to see one on the trail *ever*.

Of course, SLC is like 10 years behind everyone. People still stop me on the trail to ask me about my 29er here, as if they're some kind of new and exciting thing.

Currently the Maxxis Ardent EXO 27.5x2.25. It's the tallest 650b tire I've seen yet and there is 4-6mm to top of new tread by eye balling it with a 12mm spoke nipple, maybe more. The Neo-Moto 2.3 had a little more clearance, but it doesn't hold up well in the rocky SW terrain.

It will be interesting to see what happens this year. There are a lot of bikes being built but many people have no idea that 650b even exists. I don't know of a single shop here in SLC that carries even one 650b bike (to be fair I only regularly visit a couple of them). Either we'll see a lot more offerings next year or it'll be the end. IMO it would have made more sense to appeal to/build for the XC market first (that's where the most people/$ are) but 150+mm travel seems to be what everyone decided the 650b world needed.

-Walt

Hey Walt,

You need to come by GO-RIDE.com some time. We have a number of 27.5 bikes in stock and on the way, including demos. Bikes we already have or will be stocking:

Intense Carbine 275 - already built 4 for customers, 1 demo available more on the way, bike for sale on the floor.

Ventana Zeus - demo on the floor

Norco Range - 2 versions for sale on the floor

Norco Sight - 1 version for sale on the floor, more coming

Turner Burner - built one for customer, demos as soon as they are available.

We have also built a number of wheelsets for customers for both custom builds and conversions.

-When we moved here people told us about this "crazy" new sandwich shop where people deliver subs on bikes (yeah, heard of Jimmy John's, actually...) and a place where you can get a "big as your head" burrito (Chipotle/Qdoba haven't made it here, I kid you not).
-People literally (I have had a polite conversation with a fellow about this when he was parking his car) think the bike lanes are where you park.
-Microbrews (especially crazy stuff like IPAs) are a new beer sensation sweeping the city.
-I bought some tofu at the grocery store and the checkout girl asked me what it was/what it tasted like/why I was buying it.
-You can go to a physical store to buy/sell/trade in your CD's! I am not joking!

And best of all, I can be cool again here because I have a 29er! People literally stop me on the trail and ask about it, which hasn't happened to me in CO for at least 5 or 6 years. If I get around to building myself a 36er I'll cause people to drop dead in shock, I think. My cargo bike has almost caused traffic accidents numerous times due to rubbernecking.

That is funny stuff Walt!
Trust me I do feel your pain. When I went to Moab years ago I was double fisting Budweiser and could never get a decent buzz. Than i was told the Abv was like 2.5%!
I was shocked and more than a little pissed.

My Burner frame should be delivered tomorrow. I am coming off several years on small 29ers and think 27.5 is the ticket for me. I will know soon enough!

The RM carbon is a candidate I guess, but no local dealer. I get decent pricing on Turners and Ibis, and apparently there's a strong hint from Ibis that they'll be announcing a true 650b long travel bike at sea otter.

I have plenty of parts for the build. Just need frame and fork, and new rims on the CKs.

Besides having a lowish and moderately slack geo, I would like short CS too.

Originally posted by bucksaw87
I still fail to see how mustaches, fixies, and PBR are ironic.

I get decent pricing on Turners and Ibis, and apparently there's a strong hint from Ibis that they'll be announcing a true 650b long travel bike at sea otter.

You never said anything about local dealership support, so we the internet masses have no idea who is close to you or not.

Ibis HD at 160mm is still a 28lbs bike.

Again, really worth the extra coin for those two pounds?

That's why I view 160mm 650B as the best deal in the MTB world today. Averaging about 30lbs and 155mm, at HTAs around 67š, with many of those weights and travel being available in lower-spec bikes, the current crop of 650B All-Mountain bikes is really a bargain.

GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

Your comments are garden variety trolls. Trolls piss most people off. If you have
no use for 27.5" bikes, good for you. Go back to some other forum and yuck it up about how useless 27.5" is.

I never said anything about 27.5 inch bikes or their usefulness. I've ridden plenty and I'm casually a fan, just waiting for the right one for me. You can't argue with the merits of the wheel size, specific geometry is what I'm waiting for.

Maybe in your search for a reason to attack someone, you caused yourself to become confused. Sucks getting old I suppose.

I never said anything about 27.5 inch bikes or their usefulness. I've ridden plenty and I'm casually a fan, just waiting for the right one for me. You can't argue with the merits of the wheel size, specific geometry is what I'm waiting for.

Maybe in your search for a reason to attack someone, you caused yourself to become confused. Sucks getting old I suppose.

Actually, your first response was indicative of a "troll" as it had no useful contribution to the subject, and your past posting have also included dislike for the 650b.

SO, go away unless you have something constructive to add, and this is not Facebook so you do not need to post what your thinking or planning on doing in the future for all of us, how couldn't give less of a poop, to know about.

You never said anything about local dealership support, so we the internet masses have no idea who is close to you or not.

You must be new to these types of threads. the focus here is on a list of high end 650b frames in this travel category, updates on rumored announcements...when I respond to some frame ideas by commenting on local availability for me, that is not an implication that contributors to the thread should somehow know my local availability.

Ibis HD at 160mm is still a 28lbs bike.

Again, really worth the extra coin for those two pounds?

.

With companies like Norco attempting to get $2700 for mass-market mfg'd alu frames, the 'extra coin' argument becomes kinda moot. And you should know that on bike forums it's best to leave the cost:benefit analysis to the people making the purchase

Originally posted by bucksaw87
I still fail to see how mustaches, fixies, and PBR are ironic.

Actually, your first response was indicative of a "troll" as it had no useful contribution to the subject, and your past posting have also included dislike for the 650b.

SO, go away unless you have something constructive to add, and this is not Facebook so you do not need to post what your thinking or planning on doing in the future for all of us, how couldn't give less of a poop, to know about.

I don't think you can find a post of mine where I said I disliked 27.5 bikes. I may have said I didn't feel a radical difference, but I also wasn't aware that this forum was only for heaping blind praise and discussions regarding the relevant details of the 27.5 experience were off limits.

My post was poking fun at the delusional opinion that 26 inch wheels are going to be limited to beach cruisers and DJ bikes. (this opinion falls squarely inside your poorly written rant about facebook and opinions btw). It's something we heard before and was proven to be false.

What are you waiting for? Nearly everything is out there. Maybe not from the Big-4, but its out.

I'm a huge Yeti fan, so specifically I'm waiting to see what they come up with. A frame based on their SB66 suspension and geometry would be perfect for me. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a March release date.

deerhill, I'm not running a coil nomad. ? Coil didn't feel right on my 2009 nomad frame, and I didn't buy the PUsh linkage that corrects the leverage curve for coil shock usage. as for 140 650b'er replacing a 160 travel 26er, I'm trying to be open-minded on that being possible perhaps i.e. I will seek out a demo so I can decide for myself. but since my nomad/lyrik, in combination with having several hardtail 29ers, ended up largely replacing my FS XC'ers, I've basically concluded that my 650b purchase should have a relatively stout fork (34 or greater stanchion diameter) and close to 160 mm travel, ideally w/ a piggyback air e.g. CCDB.

PHeller, the answer to your question is my first post in this thread. Thanks to everyone who has added to the list of high-end 650b frames in this category. Hope the list gets longer...

Originally posted by bucksaw87
I still fail to see how mustaches, fixies, and PBR are ironic.

Well, it's not out yet but a 140mm Knolly Endorphin is coming in a few months and I'm sure the Chicoltin won't be far behind that.

If Pivot was smart they would hang a dedicated 650B triangle on the Mach 5.7Carbon. Same with Ibis with the Mojo HD/SLR.....that is if both companies don't already have something up their sleeve for Sea Otter Classis. So many SC bikes are converted so I'll eat crow if something isn't announced or leaked soon.

Coming from a quiver of 6, 7 and 8 inch coil bikes myself, never been on bigger than 26 wheels, my Burner is impressing me.

On the frame weight issue, I've always questioned "light" tires and parts on bigger travel bikes, to me more travel is more reason for more strength to really enjoy the increased travel. Six inches of travel with over inflated pinner tires makes no sense to me. The Spitfire frame weight is questionable considering it's targeted for aggressive riding and it's a new design from a builder that has a history of frame construction issues.

... On the frame weight issue, I've always questioned "light" tires and parts on bigger travel bikes, to me more travel is more reason for more strength to really enjoy the increased travel. Six inches of travel with over inflated pinner tires makes no sense to me ...

I tend to see it the same way. Lightweight Tires for the sake of Weight-Savings are pointless when you really want to ride in rough Terrain.

Originally Posted by airwreck

... The Spitfire frame weight is questionable considering it's targeted for aggressive riding and it's a new design from a builder that has a history of frame construction issues.

All this is History ...
Iīm waiting for my Hans 650B Dampf Tires, so have to stick with 26ers and donīt want to quote about that due to 650B now. But as a Spitfire-V2-Rider I can gladly confirm that the new Banshees are top notch Bikes, completely re-designed, with a Performance in the same Quality like any DW-Link, VPP or Maestro-Suspension. I suspect the Spitfire is the most aggressive Trailbike on the Market right now. Itīs not super light, but offers reasonable Strength and Durability. For sure somehow filling a smaller Niche, but for those who appreciate a really low, long and slack Geometry should take a closer look, especially when it comes to 650B and Trailbike-Category with 140 mm Travel.
Plus: All new Runes and Spitfires are easy to "convert" to 650B, for those who want to give that a Try.

So how's the crop of 150-160 mm high end 650b FS bikes looking for 2013?

Originally Posted by smellurfingers

I never said anything about 27.5 inch bikes or their usefulness. I've ridden plenty and I'm casually a fan, just waiting for the right one for me. You can't argue with the merits of the wheel size, specific geometry is what I'm waiting for.

Tally so far. Two votes you are a troll; one you are not (yours)

Maybe in your search for a reason to attack someone, you caused yourself to become confused. Sucks getting old I suppose.

Proving the point beyond doubt.

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Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

deerhill, I'm not running a coil nomad. ? Coil didn't feel right on my 2009 nomad frame, and I didn't buy the PUsh linkage that corrects the leverage curve for coil shock usage. as for 140 650b'er replacing a 160 travel 26er, I'm trying to be open-minded on that being possible perhaps i.e. I will seek out a demo so I can decide for myself. but since my nomad/lyrik, in combination with having several hardtail 29ers, ended up largely replacing my FS XC'ers, I've basically concluded that my 650b purchase should have a relatively stout fork (34 or greater stanchion diameter) and close to 160 mm travel, ideally w/ a piggyback air e.g. CCDB. PHeller, the answer to your question is my first post in this thread. Thanks to everyone who has added to the list of high-end 650b frames in this category. Hope the list gets longer...

Yeah I assumed coil fork not air. Think all nomads I've seen had air shock, didn't know they could work with coil shock?

Not trying to knock anyones choice of travel, I don't see 650b as a 29" for smaller people. Good to be open minded and it's great people with larger than medium inseams have such options.

Originally Posted by airwreck

Have you ridden a 140 27.5 bike?Coming from a quiver of 6, 7 and 8 inch coil bikes myself, never been on bigger than 26 wheels, my Burner is impressing me.

No, other than 26 mtb, only a 29". I haven't built a 650b wheel yet, that is good to hear

To a point, always felt larger diameter was no substitute for travel and proper shock tune. Think a smart designer can fit 140mm with 29" geometry.. I like large rubbers, fact is there are limitations with that wheel size somewhere around 140mm travel. And there's still weak selection of 650b tread for "nomad" type trails. Which is where this thread is at.. like to see what tires are available this year other than the HD.

A strong rider is open to more types of riding with the extra bottom out control on a 160mm (like the frame frorider is trying to replace). Very capable rig, more options. And the 650b seems to expand on this idea.. if the tread is there.

Mine arrived today, first time I've seen them besides on the computer, weighed 850 and 815, the knobs look small and closely spaced to me. No way would I have bought these tires if I was 26" tire shopping but needed an upgrade to the 2.3 nevegal and 2.2 wolverine I've been riding. Still frothing for the HR2's!

Jenson has it listed as 5.5 lbs.
Banshee lists it as 6.5.
I based that comment off Jensons specs, should have looked at Banshees site instead.

I havenīt put my medium Spitfire on a Scale, but another Rider got these Measurements:"small anno black frame with 135x10 dropouts, shock bolts but no shock, no seat clamp, is 3.145kg or 6.9lb"

My ordered Hans Dampf is a 2.25 for 650B. Relauch should be March. I want a more pedalfriendly Tire for Allday-Riding. For really rough Trails or Park I have my 26ers With 2.4 HR II. So Iīm in the Boat of switching Wheelsets frequently.

I havenīt put my medium Spitfire on a Scale, but another Rider got these Measurements:"small anno black frame with 135x10 dropouts, shock bolts but no shock, no seat clamp, is 3.145kg or 6.9lb"

My ordered Hans Dampf is a 2.25 for 650B. Relauch should be March. I want a more pedalfriendly Tire for Allday-Riding. For really rough Trails or Park I have my 26ers With 2.4 HR II. So Iīm in the Boat of switching Wheelsets frequently.

Bottom line is the the Spitfire frame with dropouts, shock, and a seat clamp is approx 8lbs. No it's not the lightest but the bike can be built up as low as 27lbs and under 30lbs pretty easily. If you look at most of the bikes in the 650B shootout it's about the same. Possibly ordering my frame this week.

Bottom line is the the Spitfire frame with dropouts, shock, and a seat clamp is approx 8lbs. No it's not the lightest but the bike can be built up as low as 27lbs and under 30lbs pretty easily. If you look at most of the bikes in the 650B shootout it's about the same. Possibly ordering my frame this week.

Yes man, thatīs good news!
As you may know: Iīm not really in the Weight-Penality-Game and I can assure that the Spitfire feels, rides, pedals much more lighter than one can think - really an amazing Bike.
Unfortunately I canīt give you concrete Measurements towards buy or not buy the 650B-Dropouts, Tires are not available yet ...

Bottom line is the the Spitfire frame with dropouts, shock, and a seat clamp is approx 8lbs. No it's not the lightest but the bike can be built up as low as 27lbs and under 30lbs pretty easily. If you look at most of the bikes in the 650B shootout it's about the same. Possibly ordering my frame this week.

I'm a big believer in Banshee's theory that the the extra weight in a frame like the spitfire is greatly outweighed (sorry for pun) by the increased efficiency you get from a good stiff frame. Making it not only descend much better, but even in some cases pedal and sprint better. I'd take a 28-32 lb bike I can hammer on all day over a 25 lb bike that flexes every time I get out of the saddle. You aren't gonna get up the hill any faster if all your energy goes into your frame. If only I was a scientist... it'd be awesome to find that optimal weight/flex ratio.

Sorry, but that Banshee theory has an element of BS in it (and yeah I'm an engineer). Various aluminum frame designs can have similar weights but different degrees of flex under pedalling due to, for example, one bike having long-ass seat stays (many swing-link, inexpensive frames are in this category) while another has two short links and wide bearing layout. I'm not a Banshee hater by any means -- in fact I prefer alu bikes to be a little over built (tubing wall thickness) so that strength and fatigue resistance are improved. If Banshee emphasized that as the advantage that comes from their slightly heavy weight, they'd be on more solid engineering ground.

Originally posted by bucksaw87
I still fail to see how mustaches, fixies, and PBR are ironic.

The biggest BS is that non-informed People think Banshee is always saying: We throw a bunch of aluminum at it - it will be stiffer and more efficient ...

Seriously: Banshee is using so called "Internal Ribbed Chain/Seatstays". These makes for an incredible lateral stiff Rear-Triangle, even with QR, but do add some Weight of course. Their Rockers, Short-Links or the Front-Triangle-Tubings are non-exzessive and non-overbuild for quite some Years now. The new KS-Link Frames may weight above the average, but this is mainly given to the Fact of two Features: Ribbed Chain/Seatstays and cold-forged, interchangeable Dropouts, which adds some weight too, but offer great Compability and Adjustability that is ahead of many Competitors.

in fact I prefer alu bikes to be a little over built (tubing wall thickness) so that strength and fatigue resistance are improved. If Banshee emphasized that as the advantage that comes from their slightly heavy weight, they'd be on more solid engineering ground.

And that is in fact exactly what Banshee will tell you if you visit the Banshee forum and also the fact they use internally ribbed stays on the new Spitty, Rune, and Prime to increase stiffness in the swingarm. You can build a good stiff frame from thin tubing and many manufacturers do this but it's impact resistance may suffer. I believe Banshee errs on the slightly heavier tubing for longevity and the beating they expect their bikes to take. As far as efficiency the new KS Link is the real deal with pedaling and suspension performance and kinematics on par with DW Link and Maestro bikes. Better than the VPP bikes from SC or Intense, better than the new Scott, Altitude, Zeus, Jamis or about any FSR bike out there although the Norco is very very good with a high pedal kickback being it's only real deficiency.

And this is about the only quote from the Bashee site regarding any so called theory. Keith Scott, Banshee's designer.

I designed the Rune as a true explorers bike. It has the performance to make exploring new terrain easy and enjoyable, allows the rider to explore the limits of their ability, and to help them progress in confidence and ability. Lots of bikes out there shout claims of being "all mountain" bikes, but I have ridden a lot of them, and found them lacking. Most of them feel like wet noodles when you are pushing it and riding hard due to the frames flexing underneath you, and very few are equally capable of going both up and down challenging terrain.

For the Rune, I wanted the stiffness of a freeride bike but without the weight, as well as the pedaling efficiency of an XC bike. By carefully designing the frame both in terms of structural integrity and rigidity, and carefully planning the axle path, anti-squat and leverage ratio, I have created the bike that I had in my mind. If I had only one bike, it would be a Rune. I am happy riding this bike for 40 mile all day epics, as well as shredding down DH courses boosting jumps and railing berms.

Everyone has a slightly different opinion of what an all mountain bike should be. So in order to keep everyone happy, I made the Rune a versatile bike by adding a taper head tube. This allows riders to change the bike feel and geometry not only by changing between traditional and zero stack headsets to suit their fork choice, but it also opens up the option of using angle reducer cups if you want to slacken and lower the bike a for more DH feel.

The Rune can truly do it all. It can climb with the lycra brigade, and descend with armor clad full facers, but most of all the Rune is a bike that will put a smile on your face every time you ride it.

As far as efficiency the new KS Link is the real deal with pedaling and suspension performance and kinematics on par with DW Link and Maestro bikes. Better than the VPP bikes from SC or Intense, better than the new Scott, Altitude, Zeus, Jamis or about any FSR bike out there although the Norco is very very good with a high pedal kickback being it's only real deficiency.

That's pretty awesome that you've been able to ride all of those bikes and can offer a truly objective opinion on the ride qualities.

He never says they are the best "feeling" bikes, which is totally objective.

But yes, science and engineering can give us facts about how a bike will perform without it ever getting dirty.

Yes, exactly.

I've spent some time on each except the Intense. How a bike feels is totally subjective for sure and some might have trouble differentiating one for another but yes PHeller is correct that engineering models can pretty much tell you how a bikes characteristics will preform. Read enough in the many different forums from users and reviews from all over the net and these findings are typically very sound. Obviously it has no bearing on how a bike might fit or not fit an individual but it can help if you're looking for particular pedaling characteristics or how critical the shock tuning that will be required to make it work decently.

I have 4 rides on my new to me Tracer 275, could be the honymoon talking but I finally added that extra climb/decend to a ride I've threatened to do so on for 2 years. The bike handles great, pedals great and has some deep travel. I need to play witht the shock pressures/settings to try to set better small bump compliance but so far the bike is fantastic.

Ah, I see Seed Engineering so that would make it an Intense something or other. It's got ISCG so that probably rules out a short travel 650 XC bike. New carbon Uzzi, Tracer 29 carbon, Tracer 275 carbon, 951 carbon? Are those water bottle mounts right in front of what looks like a dropper post hose opening?