Dog Is In The "planning" Stages...purchased From Breeder...spring Litter

If you "click" with this dog, you will know it ! But truly go with your heart. If it isnt the right dog there is no shame in waiting ( especially since it already has a good owner looking out for it). You both deserve the best companion possible.

I've been away from the forum for a couple weeks, so had lots of catching up to do. Just read that you're looking into an adult dog now - sooo happy to hear that!! Both of mine were adopted from a GS rescue as adults, neither had any training, and both have done fabulously!

Can I take this thread to another line for a moment. Somehow I got off on a tangent and saw a youtube of Cesar Milan working his dogs. I sure would like to hear from you people on this dog trainer. After watching Emily Larlham (kikopup) and her positive reinforcement methods, and recalling how I used to use choke collars, and sideways kicking on my first dogs, I just wouldnt have the heart to hit my dog, kick it, or anything like that. I guess I just dont really know enough about dogs, but somehow I get the feeling that Cesar Milan is just being the bigger wolf in a wolf pack. I dont want a wolf or to dominate my "wolf." I want a socialized pet who recognizes that I am not its enemy but its friend and that I am not out to beat it up but to work cooperatively with it and to show it how we can live together under one roof without using violent methods. I am getting old...I just dont have the heart to beat up on a dog. If I have to train a dog by aggressive tactics, then I dont want a pet. I have seen choke collars with spikes in them now. Are you kidding...wow ! Sorry to rant like this folks, but seeing how aggressively Milan trains his dogs got to me and I had to write to hear how you people view him. I am sticking to Emily Larlham's gentle positive reinforcement techniques along with clicker training as promoted by Karen Pryor. Not to sound sexist, but it is curious that these two women use positive reinforcement while the man uses aggressive, force reliant techniques. I better check my DNA as I must be missing the X chromosome !!!
Richard

Cesar Milan is a self-declared "Dog Whisperer". He is a firm promoter of the old "dominance theory" - which has been disproven by hard science. Scaring, dominating, flooding, hitting, etc ... it doesn't work with people, and it doesn't work with dogs. If you want to do something really interesting (and many behaviorists and +reinforcement trainers have) - watch an episode of Cesar with the sound OFF. In this way, you'll not hear - nor be influenced by - any of the music, the narration, nor his blather or charm. You'll only focus on the dogs body language - you'll watch a dog go from possibly scared (which is very often the case in aggression cases) - to even more scared, and shut down. You'll see a dog start to cower, ears go back, often tail is tucked, etc. Dogs are often licking their lips, yawning, looking away, etc .. from whatever they're scared of, and yet instead of giving them time to cope, he presses them on, with yanks, jerks, side kicks, etc. Dogs will throw every deflection signal or posture at him they know - and he won't acknowledge it. He claims he "knows dogs" - and yet he ignores their actions, cuz it makes for better television.

Pataricia McConnell is one of the best known and respected behaviorists in the world. I had the good fortune of attending one of her seminars a couple of years ago. She told us that there was a huge gathering of behaviorists and trainers for a big "meeting of the minds" - they had invited Cesar, he had declined. Amazing. She was pretty sure he didn't want to hear anything they had to say, as it was in direct conflict with his beliefs. They had science to back them up - he had his own personal beliefs, and his TV show.

I can tell you from personal experience, one of my GSDs is fear aggressive. I had one sessions with a "Cesaresque" trainer at the beginning of our journey. She became much worse immediately. After another session with yet a different "Cesaresque" trainer (oh, what we learn along the way at the expense of our poor dogs!!!) she was horrid, and I was afraid to walk her. It was then that I found our training center and discovered clicker training, because I felt there had to be a better way. What we have accomplished with a little clicker and some treats is amazing.

When you think about benevolent leaders, and what your idea of one would be, you don't think of some wishy-washy marshmallow type person. You think of a one who leads, but who leads fairly and wisely, is a good teacher, and one who you would want to please because it's someone you respect. If you watch dogs in a pack, the alpha dog (unless it's a bully) doesn't attack or take down other dogs. Often all it takes is a look to stop something going on that shouldn't be. I'm sure you've heard that quote: Dear Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am. I love that, it says so much. Our dogs look to us for everything. Food, water, shelter, fun, security -- we become their everything. We can be gone 5 min and they greet us like we've been gone for days. We can be happy or sad, grumpy, sloppy, fat, thin, rich, poor - it doesn't matter. All they want is some time, and our love. If we give them that, plus rules and boundaries that they can understand they'll give us so much back in return. Dogs will try to please us - because when they do, we give them what they want in return.

I always try to pay mine well (for tricks, their "jobs" around the house, etc) - they get good treats (chicken is their treat of choice). They work hard, and we try to play hard. It's a give and take. I'll give Cesar one thing - he may have gotten thru to some people that dogs need exercise. Too many get dogs and wonder why they get into trouble when they never leave the yard. As for his methods - they're outdated. He needs to catch up. He's living in the dark ages, and sadly, making tons of money, and misguiding so many people.

For a good tv show, and excellent advice, check out "It's Me or The Dog" with Victoria Stillwell on Animal Planet. She's a positive reinforcement trainer, gives good solid advice, and has had a wide variety of issues on her show. Whatever dog you end up with, I think it's going to be a lucky pup (they're all pups to me, no matter how old). I'm so glad you joined the forum. You're going to be more than ready for any dog who enters your life - whenever it happens.

I have experienced this first hand ... specifically referring to having a DOMINANT and overly energetic puppy. As I've mentioned before she was a handful ( other circumstance were involved too). At times I admit I "lost it" because I was just so stressed and tired. But if I too quickly pushed away a snarling biting puppy or grabbed out to control her it only served to escalate the situation, and she would literally come back at me "attacking " even stronger. It took months to reach a mutual understanding whereby " if you don't bite/dominate me, we can have more fun together". She was and never would be the Hallmark Card puppy that fells asleep in your lap and looks up at you adoringly. I had to accept that and move on. Thank God for dog park. The "aggression" and energy quickly dissipated as exercise increased. I discovered that most of that so called "aggression" really stemmed from frustration and pent up energy and wasnt necessarily directed solely towards me although I was the best target, ( apparently 4 - hour long walks and 4- hour long play sessions were not enough)( between her and Hank I was walking dogs 6-8 hours a day BUT I LOST 6 POUNDS in the process despite self medicating with potato chips.

Sure some dogs need a firmer hand than other and I think no one method works for every dog ... you will discover what works best for you and your dog. . The people in here have been through most situations and can honestly recommend a positive reinforcement attitude towards training is best. Everyone makes mistakes, but trying to be the best companion for your dog is a great first step. Remember Fair, Firm, and Consistent.

I'M SO GLAD you are going to check out the adult dog!
this dog will be such a lucky lucky dog to have YOU!!!
I think you will do great!!
there are dog champions winning ribbons at age 7. Age 3 is just right age for showing, is very very common age to be a show dog.

KEEP US POSTED!!!!
be aware,when you FIRST bring home an adult dog,for first week or two,
the adult dog does not yet realize he LIVES there, in the adult dog's mind,
he is lost.
for real, YOU know the dog is home,
but the dog doesn't know that for a lil while.

It takes a newly rehomed adult dog a lil while to adjust, he may nap a lot at first.
He may "lie low" and be a lil subdued, AT FIRST, while he is processing all the new changes in his world, trying to realize if he is safe or not,
if you are okay or not,
he is making up his mind, it will take a week or two, some dogs a bit longer.

NewDog will be watching you, sizing you up, deciding if you are okay.
You will be able to spot the day NewDog has approved you, "you are IN"

Also, it is very very common, for newly rehomed adult dogs,
even if they are perfectly potty trained,
to have a few accidents that first week,
cuz Newdog will be a lil bit nervous that first week or so,
so take dog outside to pee/poop OFTEN,
like every 2 hours on first day,
every 3 hours on next few days,
and slowly wean back to less often.
NewDog WON'T know "where the bathroom is" nor will NewDog be able to tell you when he has to go outside,
not at first. So you have to help NewDog get to "bathroom" since he doesn't yet know how to tell you, or where bathroom IS, not at first.
If he does have accident, do NOT yell at him, he is already mortified. Remember your first day at a new job? that's sorta like NewDog will feel that first week or two.

DO toss NewDog treats a lot, hand feed him treats a lot, and have him lick small dabs of peanut butter off of your hand.

Licking your hand is VERY bonding to a dog.

Try not to STARE at NewDog, (it's bad manners in dog language)
but, you will stare at NewDog, so, while you are staring at NewDog,
do SLOW BLINK and
glance away now and then
and yawn at him now and then.
(NewDog will know what you said, that's HIS language, you just said, "calm down" or you are safe here.)

when you are just sitting around with Newdog, relaxing,
offer deep sighs every now and then (Newdog may deep sigh back if you listen for it)

See, NewDog will already be overwhelmed to find himself in strange place.
all the new smells,
new sounds,
new rules,
new strangers,
etc.
IF OUTDOORS----DO Keep NewDog on leash at all times, for several weeks, as he will NOT initially realize he IS home now, nor where his home IS.

If NewDog is outside in your fenced yard, be out there with him. Sometimes Newdogs do wander off, dig holes to find their way home, til they realize, "oh, i AM home now!"

It won't take NewDog very long to realize he DOES live there now,
but, NewDog won't realize this at first.

Urrghh Cesar Milan. I have one simple sentance that explains why his technique doesn't really work: "I have 2 legs and my dog has 4". There is a big differnce to being 'in charge/leader' V.S "pack leader/alpha".
.
Exciting! honestly i think we should have got an older dog v.s. a puppy. I cried so much that first week with Oka, it's was too much. I really didn't enjoy it, it didn't feel fun. Also as Tigerlily says you don't know what your getting. I got the most submisssive pup in the litter - good...ish.... except she feels that she has to submit to every dog she sees, to the point where she kind of is nuts about dogs. Even now, she is not a people dog - she doesn't enjoy strokes and cuddles, she tolerates them... not quite what i had in mind when i first decided to get a dog...but we love her all the same.

I have raised two puppies one from six months, Missy than her puppy. I loved watching them grow up I found it a very enjoyable experience sure at times I got upset when a pair of my shoes or my birds playground was chewed but it was worth it. And for the potty training both of them learned very quickly especially Missy's puppy Domino. So raising a puppy is a lot of fun but can be frustrating at times for someone who has little patience it is best to get an adult dog .

Re: wondering if males use cruelty more often while training dogs, Richard remarks //" I better check my DNA as I must be missing the X chromosome !!!"//

Nah, there are tons of men who do not approve of being cruel while training dogs, including many members here on DTA, and the owner of this site, Jean, who uses positive only training methods.
YOu can watch the owner of this site, Jean, calmly train a dog in the CLASSROOM section up above,
very quick lil videos,
and see for yourself, he is only using positive reinforcment, no cruelty at all, and you can see, his dogs LOVE the way he is training them, very obvious to me when i watch his videos, THOSE DOGS ARE HAVING FUN!!

On a board for owners of aggressive dogs that i belong to, there are tons of females who DO use punishment while training "rehabbing" their aggressive dogs, i think using cruelty and force and intimidation while training dogs is a "learned" behavior in humans of either gender. Dog whisperer has done much damage to the world of dog training....grrrrrr.

There are some really phenomenal positive MALE dog trainers all over YouTube.

So glad that you have decided to give the adult dog a shot. Whether you want a puppy or you want an adult, it is good for you to consider the adult regardless. Even if it doesn't work out, this will give you a little more insight into the breed and perhaps help your wife prepare a little bit, emotionally.

I personally love working with a clean slate, whether it is an adult or a puppy. Puppies are tooons of fun, so wonderful to watch them grow and learn. But growing and learning also means that there are going to be many, many frustrating moments. It sounds like your wife may not be 100% on board with training, and this could be a real problem for a puppy. Speaking from experience, everyone has to be on board and on the same page with training so that the dog/puppy gets the same messages from everyone. If the wife isn't going to be very crazy about dog training, inconsistent, impatient, or generally uninterested, your puppy's training will indeed take longer because he/she will probably be confused. Do understand that this can happen with an adult as well, but an adult dog will be a little better equipped to deal with this and sort things out. Plus, if the breeder is a good one, this adult should have a very good foundation as far as socialization and behavior(as in general house manners). So, although I do think you could probably handle a pup, your wife might not be able to yet. This adult might be the best way to go for both of you--you can both learn, and hopefully he will win your wife over and help her see what you love about dog training. Perhaps he will help your wife be more prepared for your future puppy, even if it ends up being several years down the road.

Do be open minded to either situation, think about your personal situations and decide whether an adult or a pup will be best for your life right now. And enjoy the adult, even if just for a while. Kudos for at least giving him a shot.

Unless you do for sure want to show him, please do get him neutered if you choose to keep him. The world has more than enough puppies; it truly does not need any more. (Here comes the breeding and genetics nerd in me...) Obviously the breeder has determined that he is not superior enough to be breeding stock, or he/she would be keeping him for breeding purposes. Don't keep him in tact just to have the possibility of "passing on his genes." It's already been determined by someone with more experience with breeding and his breed in particular that his genes don't necessarily need passed on. There are so many dogs in need of homes that were created because someone just wanted to "let their dog have puppies." If you aren't going to show him, there's really no reason to leave any possibility that he could possibly create more lives. Do him and the dog overpopulation a favor and get him neutered. It's never just a few puppies--those puppies can create just a few puppies each, who can also create a few puppies each, and so on.
There's my spill on that. ^^ Do understand I am not against breeding. Responsible breeding to improve a breed is an admirable thing. Breeding just to create lives is not. I am pro-responsible breeding and pro-rescue.

and re: Tx's post above, as much as i TOTALLY completely support neuter/spay, cuz of the dog overpopulation crisis,
i don't know because your breeder is offering you, Richard, an adult dog, that THAT is any indicator the dog being offered is somehow 'inferior' in any way at all, as Tx suggests. You, Richard, seem to be the kind that prefers some pedigreed, show dog type of dog, and if that is indeed VIP to you,
this adult dog you are looking over, is probably a pedigreed, registered, top quality dog.

many of the top breeders in the nation,
offer adult dogs on their websites for sale.
There's many many great reasons to neuter/spay, but thinking since a breeder offered you an adult dog, the dog is inferior breeding stock,(?) is not necessarily true.
Could be he wants to start new line with one of your dog's decendants, and needs new stock & can only reasonably provide a good life to a certain number of dogs, who knows? The breeder may have even sensed, that you, Richard, might do better with an adult dog instead of a puppy, who knows?

I also didn't understand Tx's "clean slate" remark at all,(?) and hope you, Richard, do not misconstrue that remark....especially a curious remark to come from Tx,
since a puppy Tx did raise herself from 12 weeks old did have shyness with aggression, and her easiest dog, MUd, was a rescue from a junkyard. (which many would feel is a dog who does NOT have a 'clean slate', since Mud had suffered some level of neglect there) Adult dogs are a more sure bet, than puppies are!!
Maybe what Tx meant was, she prefers a dog who has no behavioral issues. (?) No dog has a "clean slate", not even at birth, there are prewired behaviors, bound to show up in that breed or in that dog,
sooner or later.Adult dogs are great,cuz you can SEE who they ARE.
Richard, please do peruse the forums, and read post
after postof all the desparate sounding puppy owners pulling their hair out,
(read the link above, OR many of the puppy owner's threads..)
and then,
DO give that adult dog a good chance, keep an open mind.

On the breeder rehoming the adult:
True, could be for a variety of other reasons. I've been hitting the books really hard for my breeding and genetics class and I am very much in the livestock breeding program mindset, lol! Could be that he isn't just right for his/her breeding program, doesn't need any more studs in her breeding program, or a variety of other reasons.

As for the "clean slate" remark, LOL no Tigerlily, nothing to do with behavior. Clean slate as in no or very little training; a new, fresh mind. Strictly talking about training, mainly trick-training, here. Coming from the breeder he may know some basic obedience already, but regardless, just saying I enjoy working with a new dog regardless of age.