Homosexuality and trans-sexuality in the Bible vs. Nature... is Homosexuality "totally unnatural and against God's order of things"?

How many folks know that King James (who commissioned the King James Bible and to whom it was dedicated) loved men and had sex with them? At the age of thirteen James fell madly in love with his male cousin Esme Stuart whom he made Duke of Lennox. James deferred to Esme to the consternation of his ministers. In 1582 James was kidnapped and forced to issue a proclamation against his lover and send him back to France.
-Edward T. Babinski

"I love the Earl of Buckingham more than anyone else," James announced to his councilors, "and more than you who are here assembled." He compared his love for the earl to Jesus's affection for the "beloved disciple" John. "Jesus Christ did the same," the king said, "and therefore I cannot be blamed. Christ had his John, and I have my George."

With such pronouncements King James seemed to reach a new level of outrage, especially when he compounded his offense, in the view of many, by heaping Buckingham with costly jewels, lands, and lucrative offices.
-Royal Panoply, Brief Lives Of The English Monarchs
Carrolly Erickson, History Book Club
From King James was Gay

Sue Rochford writes: Just because there is more than one meaning to a single word does not mean that you can exclude one meaning. In basic English the word know/knew has more than one meaning. I can know understand/comprehend) or I can know (be acquainted with) one referring to a situation the other to a person.

Any excuse/attempt to try to justify homosexuality will in the end fall flat on it's face, homesexuality is totally unnatural and against God's order of things.

What Sue seems to be overlooking, is that Homosexuality is not totally unnatural and against God's order of things.

Today, while composing an entry for my other blog on ocean species, I learned of yet another species that breaks "the rules"... I must admit as a heterosexual, it makes me uncomfortable. However, I suppose learning to accept those realities in nature is all part of increasing in intellectual and emotional maturity.

Bivalves
Clam-Shaped Venus Clams (Veneridae)

Northern Quahog (hard-shelled clam) Mercenaria mercenaria (Linnaeus)Description: (4 1/2 inches) Heavy, rounded, somewhat inflated shell. Concentric ridges on surface smooth near the center and stronger near the lower edge. Elevated beak. Strong lateral and cardinal teeth on hinge. Lunule and pallial sinus.Color: Dull gray exterior, occasionally with purple zigzag markings. Dull gray interior, often with some purple near the pallial sinus.Habitat: Lives in sounds and mouths of estuaries near the ocean. Commonly found on sound and ocean beaches.Range: Canada to Texas.Notes: Also known as the littleneck clam, cherrystone and chowder clam. A large commercial fishery in North Carolina waters, it has potential for mariculture. Nearly all individuals are male the first year, then about half become females. It was a favorite food of early Native Americans, who made beads from this shell's purple edge and used them as money, called "wampum." A form of this species with purple zigzag markings once given the subspecies name Mercenaria mercenaria notata Say, but this clam is a naturally occuring genetic color form of the northern quahog. The purple zigzag patterns occurs in a number of other species in the family Veneridae. Specimens with these markings were once specifically bred by clam growers to identify their stock from monhatchery-bred clams. Clams with these markings may still occasionally be found.
Source: Seashells of North Carolina
North Carolina Sea Grant College Program

"With reproduction, molluscs have external fertilization (with broadcast spawning where eggs and sperm are shed into and mix in the water column) and internal fertilization. Some species do it one way, others another. Some species are monoecious (both sexes in one organism); others are dioecious (male and female in separate organisms). I think they're very complicated!"
-Terri K. Hathaway
Marine Education Specialist, North Carolina Sea Grant

The Seattle Times: Nation & World: Animals exhibit "gay" behavior
None of this is surprising to field biologists, but many omit or gloss over homosexual behavior in their scientific reports.

Yahoo! Answers - homosexual behaviour?
Also bonobos participate in homosexual behavior, as well as orgies and prostitution. There is such a thing as lesbian seagulls, ...

"All vertebrate embryos are inherently female. We all start life as females. It takes some kind of added effect—such as a hormone at the right moment during development—to transform the growing embryo into a male. But, left to its own devices, the embryo will naturally become female."
Michael Crichton, Jurassic Park

Cytoplasm versus nucleus in heredity
In all vertebrates, the mitochondria (or, shall we 'say, mightochondria?) are derived exclusively from the mother; to be precise, from the maternal cytoplasm comprising the ovum.[20] There is reason[1],[15] to believe that what is true of mitochondria is true of all organelles, the paternal contribution being just half of the zygocytic nucleus. And since such a nucleus itself is substitutable, one can say that inheritance is essentially a cytoplasmic affair, a maternal endowment supplemented by the paternal (hemi) nuclear contribution. The fact that cytoplasmic inheritance does not allow the application of Mendelian laws is no reason for denigrating it as non-Mendelian inheritance worthy only of passing mention."The basic embryonic plan of all mammals is inherently feminine."[26] Is this fundamental embryologic truth traceable to the supremacy that the zygocytic maternal cytoplasm has over the half-maternal, half-paternal nucleus, a state of cytoplasmic dominance from which hereditary transmission can have no escape?Journal of Postgraduate Medicine

Was the Wickedness of Sodom Homosexuality?
Many theologians feel not, rather, tend to believe it was the wretched treatment of strangers.

The meaning of the word knew and know according to the Concordance, does not typically mean sexual relations as many have implied when interpreting the events that are recorded to have taken place in Sodom.

Try reading each of the following verses, but strictly using the sexual context of know and knew.

knew
See also FOREKNEW; KNEWEST
Genesis 3:7 and they k* that they were naked....................... 3045Genesis 4:1 Adam k* Eve his wife; and she............. 3045Genesis 4:17 Cain k* his wife; and she conceived...... 3045Genesis 4:25 Adam k* his wife again; and she.......... 3045
Genesis 8:11 Noah k* that the waters were abated................... 3045
Genesis 9:24 k*what his younger son had done ......................... 3045
Genesis 28:16 Lord is in this place: and I k* it not.................. 3045
Genesis 31:32 k* not that Rachel had stolen them ..................... 3045Genesis 37:33 he k* it, and said, It is my son's..... 5234
Genesis 38:9 Onan k* that the seed should not......................... 3045
Genesis 38:16 he k* not that she was his daughter..................... 3045Genesis 38:26 son. And he k* her no more.............. 3045
Genesis 39:6 he k* not ought he had, save the......................... 3045Genesis 42:7 saw his brethren, and he k* them........ 5234Genesis 42:8 Joseph k* his brethren, but they k*..... 5234
Genesis 42:23 they k* not that Joseph understood...................... 3045
Exodus 1:8 over Egypt, which k* not Joseph............................ 3045know See also FOREKNOW; KNEW; KNOWEST; KNOWETH; KNOWING; KNOWN.
Genesis 3: 5 God doth k* that in the day ye eat....................... 3045
Genesis 3:22 as one of us, to k* good and evil........................ 3045
Genesis 4: 9 I k* not: Am I my bother's keeper?....................... 3045
Genesis 12:11 I k*that thou art a fair woman to....................... 3045
Genesis 15:8 shall I k* that I shall inherit it?...................... 3045
Genesis 15:13 K* of a surety that thy seed shall...................... 3045
Genesis 18:19 For I k* him, that he will command...................... 3045
Genesis 18:21 come unto me; and if not, I will k*..................... 3045
Genesis 19:5 out unto us, that we may k* them......................... 3045
Genesis 20:6 Yea, I k* that thou didst this, in the................... 3045
Genesis 20:7 k* thou that thou shalt surely die....................... 3045
Genesis 22:12 for now I k* that thou fearest God...................... 3045
Genesis 24:14 I k* that thou hast shown kindness...................... 3045
Genesis 27: 2 old, I k* not the day of my death:...................... 3045
Genesis 29: 5 K* ye Laban the son of Nahor?........................... 3045
Genesis 29: 5 And they said, We k* him................................ 3045
Genesis 31: 6 And ye k* that with all my power I...................... 3045Genesis 37:32 k* now whether it be thy son's coat.... 5234
Genesis 42:33 shall I k* that ye are true men......................... 3045
Genesis 42:34 then shall I k* that ye are no spies.................... 3045
Genesis 43: 7 we certainly k* that he would say....................... 3045
Genesis 44:27 k* that my wife bare me two sons:....................... 3045
Genesis 48:19 and said, I k* it, my son, I k* it...................... 3045
Exodus 3: 7 taskmasters; for I k* their sorrows....................... 3045

Sharon: Simply being honest in saying that I've never experienced the tendencies, never participated in the lifestyle and to say "I truly understand" to a bisexual or homosexual, would be dishonest. Though, I have made some friends among some homosexual men and lesbians. Second, raised on fundamentalist background, hearing how homosexuality is God's ultimate grievance with mankind (i.e., Sodom) and AIDS (Jerry Falwell on prime time televison in the 1980s prophecying AIDS as God's punishment on gays w/video clips of entire cities turned into ghost towns).. it would be a lie to say after decades of such indoctrination, we're simply "born again" overnight and losing those deep-instilled prejudices we learned as God-fearing believers ... just because we lose faith in the Bible or belief in God. Deconversion is a long, complicated process requiring lots of soul-searching and meditation.

I see I have been given the honor of the hour as an "apostate master-mind" ... that's a bit of an overstatement, don't you think?

Triablogue: "So does Sharon believe in God? That’s certainly possible, for Debunking Christianity is a group of nonbelievers that are in no like mind apart from their rejection of Christianity."

and...

Triablogue: "Of course, if Sharon denies the existence of God, her statement here is utterly ridiculous. If God does not exist then he has no “order of things,” and it would be complete nonsense to assert that anything is for or against his order. But let’s assume that Sharon acknowledges the existence of God."

Who gave Triablogue a knighthood? Besides, I thought Americans couldn't use their foreign titles of honour if they had them?

Oh, and would you care to address the context issue that the gentlemen have raised with regard to the Sodomites?

Has it ever been normal to offer your virgin daughters to inhospitable lads of the village? I suspect that the 'wretched treatment of strangers' to which you refer was having non-consensual sex with them.

That said, this does not mean that it was specifically the homosexual part of it which angered God. I mean, having non-consensual sex with a member of the opposite sex would be equally wrong, wouldn't it?

Yes, I am guilty of failing to notice your comment in a certain thread made under a pseudonym before you were even on the Debunking Christianity team. That is my terrible mistake.

Sharon is, as I expected, a Deist. She believes she worships the "Unknown God" of Acts 17. Of course, she fails to notice the sarcasm in Paul's presentation. Paul searches for no common ground between Christianity and the Athenians. He immediately presses the anthithesis. Out of all the gods that they worship, they fail to acknowledge the one true God. Paul does not, as Sharon asserts, bring the Athenians to the gospel through the “Unknown God.” Rather, as the text states, he proclaims “Jesus and the Resurrection.” Does Sharon acknowledge Jesus and the Resurrection?

Sharon fails to worship the one true God. She has made an idol of her own imagination and has dared to attribute to him the worth that is due Jehovah.

But anyway, Sharon, how's about owning up to your intellectual dishonesty concerning Genesis 19? Lot had to offer his own daughters, yet that wasn't enough for these lustful men! And you honestly want us to believe that they only wanted to "know" them in the sense of "sit down and chat" with them?

Or why not own up to your intellectual dishonesty concerning the supporting evidence for you thesis? What do asexual starfish have to do with homosexual humans?

So we deduce God's anger was not against the homosexuals of Sodom, but rather its bi-sexuals.

Actually, the men refused the daughters! Their lust and passion for the strangers/angels was so great that they still pursued them, even after they had been struck blind! Now that is sin.

But, as was said earlier, the city of Sodom was guilty of all kinds of sin. But don't you think that it is interesting how the text focuses on this particular sin? It practically goes out of its way to condemn homosexuality, and it takes nothing but intellectual dishonesty to deny this.

Now, as a disclaimer, I believe disobedience to parents and homosexuality to be two sins that are equally damnable before the judgment seat of Christ. The only reason I focus on homosexuality is because you brought it up, and today's world is as Paul states:

Romans 1:32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Trans-sexual clams and homosexual seagulls?'God saw all he had created and said it is good.' Long before the original sin.

Speaking of clams, are they clean to eat? Yes? All meat is good? Then why is homosexuality or bi-sexuality considered such a "mighty mighty abomination"? What is it, that is "so abominable" about homosexuality... I considered that earlier today and when I think about it, you know, I really cannot pinpoint anything specific... except the homophobia associated with it.

Those old laws were done away with the Christians tell me. Most don't waste time reading the Old Testament. In fact, eating pork and shellfish can be more hazardous to your health than homosexuality.

And what of Circumcision? It too was of such a great importance to Jehovah, it is written Moses came close to getting stricken dead, for his son wasn't circumsized.Yet, in the New Testament circumcision is no longer a mandatory requirement, is that not part of the reason the Jews wanted to kill Paul? Paul was doing away with the laws.

Do we pick and choose which laws are still in effect and which ones not? Jesus said he had not came to do away with the law, but to fulfil. Do you believe it is okay to get blood transfusions? The Jehovah Witnesses don't, and they too base their teachings on scripture --an old law.

Shall I quote the verses from the Old Testament about the abomination of eating the flesh of swine? Then why do you and other Christians eat swine?I gather, if a homosexual accepts Christ, he is a Christian... and God is no respector of persons. His christianity is as good as yours.

Here is something I want to share with you in regard to your stinging and bitter antagonist attitude:"Nothing can be more absurd," he says, "than to affirm that when 'something is required to be done in order to receive a favor, the favor loses the name of a free gift, and directly becomes a debt.' I say to two beggars, Hold out your hand, here is an alms for you. The one complies, and the other refuses. Who in the world will dare to say that my charity is no more a free gift, because 1 bestow it only upon the man that held out his hand? Will nothing make it free but my wrenching his hand open, or forcing my bounty down his throat?" "Suppose a schoolmaster said to his English scholars, 'Except you instantly speak Greek, you shall all be severely whipped,' you would wonder at the injustice of the school tyrant. But would not the wretch be merciful in comparison with a Saviour (so-called), who is supposed to say to myriads of men who can no more repent than ice can burn, 'Except ye repent ye shall all perish'? I confess, then, when I see real Protestants calling this doctrine 'the pure gospel,' I no more wonder that real Papists should call their bloody inquisition the house of mercy, and their burning of those whom they call heretics an auto de fé, or act of faith." Quotes from Fletcher, Organized Methodism"History of the Christian Church"Henry C. Sheldon

Last, but not least, I said my peace yesterday when I posted. Facts are facts, and I have seen nothing posted up to this point to debunk the science I presented you with. Homosexuality is as naturally occuring in nature, as heterosexuality.

So homosexuality occurs in nature but that doesn't equal homosexuality os OK. Sex is meant to primarily multiply and replenish the earth. Can homosexual activity do this? No. Asexual is not the same as homosexual.Neither is the man without the woman or the woman without the man in the lord. Murder occurs in nature, theft also so does that make them OK? If you make the premis that homsexuality occuring in nature means its ok with God then you can't exclude other naturally occuring behaivior any different. I'm not going to say that homosexuality doesn't occur in nature or that even humans are born with that tendancy but that alone doesn't make something right or wrong.

Quite, because something's intrinsic to a person doesn't mean we must immediately suspend our moral judgement. For example, alcoholism runs in many families, does that mean it's okay for them to be alcoholics? Of course not.

Most men have problems with lust, which is intrinsic to being male. Does that mean it's right? No.

What about paedophillia? I mean the feeling here, not child abuse, is that okay?

Incest?

Cannibalism?

All happen in the animal kingdom. And if you've ever seen three roosters with a chicken, you'd know they go in for gang rape.

Click the (+/-) read more option, it might help you to understand why you are off topic.

Sue Rochford wrote: "homesexuality is totally unnatural and against God's order of things"

Where is Sue's proof of this? She had none, except her bible. Of course the biblical authors were not university-trained biologists, so this says everything about their "expert" insights into animal sexuality.

"He created them male and female". And asexual, and homosexual... and trans-sexual.. including some west african frogs that have been known to spontaneously change sex from male to female in a single sex environment -Jurassic Park, Michael ChrichtonBut the Biblical Writers were ignorant of these things. Why didn't God "inspire" them to mention it?

Sue is wrong. It is not against nature. homosexuality, a-sexuality, trans-sexuality, and heterosexuality are all normal and sinless in nature.

Natural selection [or God] -whatever power made these things to be.. created them to behave the way they do... including homosexual.

Rich: Sex is meant to primarily multiply and replenish the earth.

Sharon: Is that so? And what about girls and guys who are infertile? I've had unprotected sex during my life, and funny how I didn't get pregnant every time -- most of the time I did not get pregnant, almost EVERY time I didn't get pregnat. So sex is not just about procreation.

Also,

I find it rather evil of you to compare something as morbid as Cannibalism -- paedophillia, child abuse, alcoholism, etc on crimes and savagery --with homosexuality.Most homosexuals confess they do not "choose" this behavior; as for the earlier quotes from Fletcher:

'Except you instantly speak Greek, you shall all be severely whipped,' you would wonder at the injustice of the school tyrant. But would not the wretch be merciful in comparison with a Saviour (so-called), who is supposed to say to myriads of men who can no more repent than ice can burn, 'Except ye repent ye shall all perish'?

--

Have any homosexuals ever committed any crimes against you? No, of course not. Your blind hatred of peoplr you have no understanding of, clearly shows. Go try to make some friends with some homosexuals --force yourself to love your enemy. How to say this: Homosexuals are not your enemy, but you are their's. This really deserves no further comment.

Sharon: Tell that to King David, the man after God's own heart, who died on his bed with a girl at his side to "keep his old body warm" -all while he allowed countless wives and concubines die in widowhood.

Theologians have explained this long ago. Sodom had been at war with neighboring countries. The men of Sodom were afraid of spies and wanted to familiarize themselves with who these strangers were (even today, the CIA, ATF and FBI may kick your door in if they want something bad enough), and Lot offered his daughters as protection to his guests (ancient near east custom) it is known as "Hospitality", one who breaks from Hospitality is without honor. This was one of the problems facing the hunt for Osama Bin Ladin --if he were given shelter by his claiming "Hospitality!", they would be obligated to even lie to protect him. When Lot offered his virgin daughters to the men, "I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly", they were gravely offended --try to pull that on an investigating officer (like the woman I saw pulled on COPS, --she tries to bribe her way out of arrest in exchange for sexual favors) the officer was stunned and offended, and they replied, deeply offended, "This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them."

They were not interested in sex, they were interested in whether Lot was housing spies. #1 Why didn't they express interest in Lot if they only wanted man-sex? Why didn't they simply go have sex with each other? Homosexuals that I know, simply do not act like that. I do know some straight men who do, however (throwing away a female virgin in their family to their friends). I know many heterosexual men who have raped their own daughters and female strangers -including virgins.#2 Why hadn't Lot and his family been victims of rape, living in Sodom with "all these wild homos" running loose? What? Lot hadn't been raped? Lot's daughters were still virgins, dwelling in this "wicked wicked sexually depraved" city --nothing happened to these daughters, until.. they were alone in a cave with Lot.#3 Why didn't these men take Lot up on his offer of his daughters?#4 Why did Lot's wife love Sodom so much, that she looked back to it and turned to a pillar of salt.The story just doesn't add up to a violent homosexual mob. That's all wild imagination and failure to interpret "know" in its proper context.

Buy lots and lots of wine, and you drink it until you pass out drunk. I want to know if it's humanly possible to get an erection, while a man is passed out --too drunk to even recognize who's in the room with him.

I want to know if there's any truth at all to Lot's story about those girls molesting him and getting pregnant. Not once, but twice. That's going to take an awful lot of wine and drunken nights. You know yourself that normally no woman immediately gets pregnant... it can take multiple sexual encounters before getting pregnant --even years. I'm surprised "virgins" would even know where to put the thing, much less, how to handle one. Something just doesn't float about that Biblical story.

Ed Babinski: I don't know, never been drunk. But I've heard that alcohol increases a man's desire, but decreases his performance.

If you're too drunk to know it's your own daughters, I'd say, no way is the story even probable.

If the "wickedness of Sodom" were really Homosexuality, I gather the entire ancient near east would have been wiped off the map.In fact, William Naphy notes that a striking feature of the ancient Near East was “how few cultures seem to have any significant ‘moral’ concern about same-sex activities. … Most cultures seemed to accept that males might have sexual relations with other males” – although for a male to assume the passive position in intercourse (unless he was an adolescent) was thought somehow to make him less than a male thereafter.29 Laws only banned certain negative forms of homosexuality, namely, slander, rape and incest. Kings had male lovers along with their wives, warriors developed romantic attachments, and ordinary men customarily had anal intercourse with male and female cultic personnel. Also, the tradition of youthful rite of passage comes down from prehistoric times. Tom Horner described three types of individuals who engaged in homosexual activity in ancient Biblical times: (1) military heroes, manly types, who shared a noble love; (2) cult prostitutes, often effeminate and eunuchs, who offered themselves to worshippers at pagan shrines; and (3) average citizens, who engaged in casual same-sex relationships, even though one or both of them might have been married.30 Tom Horner also wrote (1978) that the Philistines had a culture which “accepted homosexuality” and so probably influenced Israel in this respect.31 Now, a quarter of a century later, new findings can be reported that further clarify this possibility. But first, who were the Philistines?Battle scenes and inscriptions at Medinet Habu (near Thebes) in Egypt describe the victory of Ramesses III over certain “Sea Peoples,” who ca. 1175 B.C. attacked Egypt,

Ed Babinski: Good observation above. Why only destroy two cities, when such behavior was everywhere?

Hey sharon make sure you get the right person behind quotes.John 6:57 is about the sacrament not cannabalism. Bread and wine are used to represent and remind us of the sacrifice Christ made for us.The bible is incompete and missing alot of doctrine. Many things were changed by men not God and are now lost or misplaced. So just from the bible it is impossible to tell what is truth and what isn't.Sex is Primarily about procreation not totally, Very different meanings. My Ex-wife was infertle so I know plenty about infertility. I never said anything ablut sex for pleasure. The fact that you had sex without getting pregnant means nothing to this debate. Homosexuality is not condoned by God.

Oh you mean that book.Really --a list of verses in that book where God himself specifies homosexuality as a sin?

Ask yourself why did "God" in his wisdom created homosexual animals? Actions speak louder than the written words that men attributed to "God".

Some biblical contributors were down on Adultery, while other biblical men were blatantly participating in it... in fact there are biblical scripture written when Hebrews rejected the Law and commit adultery with more than one wife... and God (that same God who commands, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" after Adam remarks, a man should leave his mother and cling to his wife, the same god who supposedly inspired Jesus to say, if you even look on another woman, you've committed adultery) compares Judah and Israel to his two wives!!! and they "whored themselves" with other lovers. Some biblical contributors were specific, the only way to God was through a circumcision, others say you circumcision is NOT mandatory. Use your reasoning facilities. The same applies to homosexuality, scriptures depended on the personal views of a man, and it is only a man after all.

Rich said... make sure you get the right person behind quotes. John 6:57 is about the sacrament not cannabalism.

Eating flesh and drinking blood is for cannibals and vampires. Simple as the b/w it's written in.

Now, similar to the Sodomites and Homosexuality --I've heard Christians often say the so-called reason the Hebrews went into the promised land slaughtering all those "wicked Canaanites" was because they were committing human sacrifice. But, nothing is recorded in condemnation of Jephthah or the 32 midianite virgins given in a heave offering, --where's the condemnation for human sacrifice?

then turn right around and tell me Jesus, the son of God himself was groomed solely for the ultimate human sacrifice. So the moral of the Bible is Do as I say, not as I do. That's right, God is beyond judgment no matter how evil and contradictory his actions.

Rich said... make sure you get the right person behind quotes. John 6:57 is about the sacrament not cannabalism.

"He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh blood, abideth in me, and I in him" (John 6:57)

I'm not stupid, of course I knew what that meant, figuratively speaking ... that's one thing I loathed about Church and Christians... they talk down to people like they're stupid. How can any person know anything without a bible thinking for them? I think it was my grandest pet peave with Church-goers. Every Sunday, one of those Quarterlies, and it's really like being taught A B C for the rest of your life. You never learn a thing.

We'll leave it at, Jesus is guilty of using an extremely tasteless analogy and Unfortunatley, there are some Christians who'd take the bible so literally as God's word...

maybe it explains what happened to Jesus' missing body

I do know some Christians and Bible believers just that full of faith.

Sharon you missed what I said about quoting. I didn't mention Incest or Paedophillia that you attribute to me. While not a big deal in this case I don't want to be quoted as saying something I didn't.Homosexuality scripturesLev 18:22Lev 20:13

I still wonder then if that means there really is nothing bad that can be done becasue we see murder, rape, polygamy, promiscuity, ect.. in the animal kingdom so go about your way and kill rape pilage plunder anything you see animals do is alright for us.

You point out the biggest problem of all. Mankinds many differing interpuretations of scripture. I don't lay my whole belief in God and his dealings with man in the bible because it has been changed so many times, it just doesn't cut it as the end all be all of gospel.

Are you saying that Jesus was commanding us to be cannibals in John 6 :57? In one post it appears that way then in the next post you say you know it is figurtative speach. So if it is figurative speach then it can't be about cannibalism. Which is it? You use that scripture to talk about cannibalism then tell me I am "Talking down" to you and thinking your stupid because I point out that it is symbolism. You were twisting words in the "book" so I wanted to clarify. Its talstless to you because you connote the evil that isn't there. Another place were the bible fais to be very accurate and misses some important wording becasue of men. Back to the topic. Sex is for procreation. Who says God ment for animals to be Homosexual? Do animals only do what God makes them do? Maybe they aren't always acting as they should just like humans who commit sin?

Rich: I didn't mention Incest or Paedophillia that you attribute to me. While not a big deal in this case I don't want to be quoted as saying something I didn't.Homosexuality scripturesLev 18:22Lev 20:13

I am quite well aware of who posted it. It's right above, and nobody will misunderstand I was addressing yourself and "All I Remember is You".

I have a real problem with those two verses. It also says in that book, Joshua commands the sun to stand still. I suppose that makes science null and void, and in fact, a geocentric solar system. Right now, the sun is rotating around the earth, eh?

Two verses written by men compared to mounds of research by scientists, hmmm?

Homosexuality is normal in nature, and you will simply have to deal with that fact, like it or not. Scripture was wrong, if it goes contrary to scientific findings.

Rich: I still wonder then if that means there really is nothing bad that can be done becasue we see murder, rape, polygamy, promiscuity, ect.. in the animal kingdom so go about your way and kill rape pilage plunder anything you see animals do is alright for us.

Sharon: There you go again, comparing what two consenting ... hello Rich, -- CONSENTING ADULTS choose to do. Who consents to be raped?Who consents to be killed?Who consents to pillage?Who coneted to murder?You wrote these, right?And, if a woman wants to be in a brothel, more power to her, I say! Personally, I do not. Like homosexuality, it doesn't work for me. But what does not work for me, may work for somebody else, as in homosexuality.Who consented to Promiscuity? Did the wife consent to her husband's adultery? No, not likely.Homosexuality involves "consenting adults". Why do you give examples of CRIMINAL behavior, vs. what two consenting adults choose to do in private? Did you know it is a sin, to stick your nose in the business of other people?

Are you saying that Jesus was commanding us to be cannibals in John 6 :57?Do you choose to interpret that he was or wasn't? That is after all, all the Bible amounts to -how the individual chooses to interpret meaning, not based on the Holy Ghost leading them in all truths, but their own perception of right and wrong. A set of "moral standards" which was developed throughout their life, guided by their own prejudices and personal preferences. That's how you end up with over 35,000 "Christian" sects and denominations and growing all the time.

So if it is figurative speach then it can't be about cannibalism. Which is it?

A sense of humor. you can not understand.

because I point out that it is symbolism.

Sounds like Cannibalism to me. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... waddles... there's been some hilarious wisecracks born out of John 6:57. But ye shall never understand!

Sex is for procreation.

That's BS. The last time I did it, it wasn't because "Gee honey, I feel like making a baby today." It was because I got hot and bothered.. and hormones took over.. let's be adults about this thing. Most people with any sense are making effort to AVOID pregnancy, and still going on having sex. You are familiar with overpopulation problems, unwanted pregnancies, the sad dilemma of abortion and the women who suffer because some man forgot to use a condom.

Who says God ment for animals to be Homosexual?

Actions speak louder than words. The homosexual behavior is coded into their genes. How it got there, who knows? But the point remains, homosexual behavior comes very "natural".

Sharon: Are you saying a woman who has reached menopause, or past menopause, no longer desires sex, no longer enjoys the sensuality in sex, being held, whispered to, all the romantic feelings involved in a healthy loving, sexual relationship ... she's too old to have children, therefore too old for sex? -- so you skirt out and find a child bride? Is that how its done Rich? That's how King David did it, and his son Solomon... (wow, I feel sorry for your wife!)

Are you saying a woman loses sexual desire because she can't have children anymore? What about women who are infertile, do they desire sex any less than other women or men? Pretty bigoted attitude. It's all about procreation you say, I say it's about the sex! --Again, like homosexuality, a natural, normal, driving force in nature, that often leads to criminal behavior in both human and animal. Darwin was right, man is still an ape.

though you Christian guys say heterosexual sex is a sin too! I remember. I remember being a statutory rape victim at the hands of backsliding Christian men, (yes, you ask them and they'd tel you they believe in Jesus, they believe that Adam lived to be 900+ years old, they believe in Christianity and probably never read the Bible.. .once saved always saved, is the attitude of many prisoners) --and my head messed up real nice, and suffering from ... ah yes, here it is:

2. ...lack of functional social support, and concurrent stressful life events

Always being told how "God has called you out of the world, set apart, different, God is watching you --God is full of wrath at your "sins" you dirty whore, you aren't a virgin anymore, -- you asked for it... you will never find a decent man you are ruined and it will haunt you the rest of your life... come out of the world!" ... when it comes to sex, the religious-minded are the most uptight, stressed out, and so unhappy that they can only try to deprive others of their consentual sexual joys. Misery loves company.

4. Those with a social environment that produces shame, guilt, stigmatization, or self-hatred

. I remember Rich, being preached at with those fire and brimstone sermons about sin is in her skirts... I was told by the preacher to stay home that day (I was pregnant and had chosen not to get married, and he knew that scripture could offend, so I stayed home).. but the preacher sent home a cassette tape so I could listen anyway. I remember being told how I was "ruined", and how if a woman does not bleed on her wedding night, she should be taken out and stoned. I remember a lot of things.

I mean Rich, you're so repressed you want to stop some homosexuals from doing what makes them feel good ... an itching desire to deprive others of their consentual sexual adult joys... so much that it makes you hate them.

Need a "sacrifice" of an innocent person (a jesus of sorts)?I've done enough grieving in my life because of rape and that bible, for myself and the whole homosexual community. What crime did I commit? Little 13 or 14 year old girl and some men in their 20's and 30's... Life was over for me by the time I reached age seventeen, -the overwhelming guilt and self-hatred - I remember praying to God for justice, begging God to send down HELL on earth on every single one of them. not even legal age! -- life was over, because of what some men (under the influence of the Bible) had done. I felt like nothingness inside, overwhelming self hatred and guilt.. I felt cursed and powerless... I was ruined, the Bible said so.

That Bible convinced those men they were superior to women, woman was created by the hand of God as an inferior read yer Bible man. "Woman put here to serve and obey man"... "Wives, obey your husbands"... "Women, submit yourselves!" "Suffer not a woman speak" Those same men will seduce a vunerable girl, and when she lets them have their way, they'll curse her for a whore ...*casual laughter*. The Bible calls her a whore. Every girl knows promiscuity is a "sin"... and if she has sex, she ought to be taken out and stoned for the whore she is.

The man is exempt from this harsh double-standard, of course.

Homosexuals --they don't seek you out, nor have they ever done a thing to hurt you and you know it - I know it. They may offend you, but there's lots of things Christianity has done that "offends" me, and I have no right to force others to behave as I want them to. Your blin hatred of homosexuals offends me real bad, your self-righteous spirituality superiority complex offends me terribly, so please, stop doing it.

Speaking of "consentual sex" between adults.. tell me Rich, did these little girls have any right to consent?

KJV: Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.KJV: But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.Numbers 31:17-18

For the man, it is okay to be promiscous. Jehovah even takes his share of the "booty"...

KJV: And THE BOOTY, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep, [...]KJV: And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.Numbers 31:35

and you're all uptight about what some consenting adult homosexuals do behind closed doors? Quoting from that book, which contains such an abominable example of "morality" --who cares what it says on homosexuality!

I have a problem with this, these were not commands by a Phillistine or Hittite, but the very man whom is credited for writing THE LAW... the very same laws in the Bible, which Jesus based his teachings upon!

But let's take a look at what happens when a woman does what men do?

KJV: But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:KJV: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.Deuteronomy 22:21

Anyone enquire after the man's tokens? Did they stone a man who wasn't a virgin??!

Now, just where would a young girl get the impression after being raped "by nature's superior men" (the holy almighty ubergender -Bible says so), that she's "dirty", "a whore", "filthy"...

Speaking of Un-Natural

Is it good for woman to be alone?Genesis implies it is not good for man to be alone.. but what if the woman is, oh the heck with it, huh?! Who cares if she lives in sorrow, loneliness, and poverty.

Take a look at the UN-NATURAL double standards of biblical men, their bigotry aimed at women who are raped: Absalom rapes David's concubines in a public peep show:

KJV: So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.2 Samuel 16:22

For Absalom's sin, those women are punished to live in widowhood and solitude for a crime they did not commit. But did good old King David die in widowhood? Nah, they round up a young virgin to keep his old putrid body warm. Pedophile after God's own heart. (Numbers 31:35)

After this sin committed by Absalom, the King wouldn't even touch them... they died alone.

Now tell me Rich, why would a girl or rape victim assume something is wrong with themself, something "evil" in herself --pointing GUILT and SELF-HATRED at herself, the victim --instead of laying the blame where it belongs...on the man. This is too often what happens when men rape in America and other nations with religious Fundamentalism interwoven with the social fabric. Some places, if a woman claims she's raped, she needs witnesses or her word means nothing.

Tell me NOTHING about "immorality", when you don't even know yourself. It takes the intelligence of a bird brain to quote verses from the Bible. Yes! Even a parrot can do that.

I guess I did miss something then, usually people quote what others say and then comment, my mistake then.You sure are full of assumptions about me. This from the one who said I have blind hatred towards homosexuals. Seems like youhave the blind hatred toward me for a difference of opinion. By the way Sharon , before you get all high and mighty my cousin is homosexual, several friends, coworkers, teacher from school, I would say I know several homosexuals and I hate NONE of them as you ASSume. I NEVER said that it didn't occur naturally in nature I said it isn't condoned of God and I gave the scriptural references you asked for. Wether you have a problem with them or not they exist. Funny how other things written by man in scripture you attribute to God but not this its clearly by a man. Everything on this sight is about what God says according to the bible. How is this different?Of coarse those verses about the sun stopping couldn't be attributed to the earths rotation stopping? Who could of thought of that? If the earth were to stop rotating the sun would be pretty still in the sky. I already have said nummerous times that I don't agree entirely with what is written in the bible, even once before here. The scripture also said nothing about the occurance in nature. So only things that consenting adults partake in and also that occur in nature are OK?It's comparing sin Sharon not one act against another. Of coarse no one consents to murder, rape,ect... I'm not stupid either.Explain how I am sticking my nose in other peoples business? I don't care what other people do in their homes. You are asking about right and wrong, approved behavior or not. All those other things are meant to show that a great many things happen in nature but that doesn't make them right for us- like or not you'll have to deal with that fact.A great many poeple have and still do things in the name of God but that doesn't make him resposible, thats their choice. Yes we are given the freedom to choose what we want to do, weak agrument or not it is the truth, choice is what our whole exsitance is about. We learn right from wrong and make the choice ourselves of what to do. Don't blame God for a persons choice.

Sharon: Are you saying a woman who has reached menopause, or past menopause, no longer desires sex, no longer enjoys the sensuality in sex, being held, whispered to, all the romantic feelings involved in a healthy loving, sexual relationship ... she's too old to have children, therefore too old for sex? -- so you skirt out and find a child bride? Is that how its done Rich? That's how King David did it, and his son Solomon... (wow, I feel sorry for your wife!)Exactly hat did I say that drew this conclusion?I NEVER said sex is ALL and EXCLUSIVLY about procreation, never. I said that the primary purpose, to be able to have offspring. Yes there are a great many people who can't have children, I have an adopted son for that very reason!! Just one more wrong assumption about Rich eh?I am sorry to here of the terrible treatment you had at the hands of some Christian men, its horrible, and you were taught a great many non truths about Christ's true Gospel.

I mean Rich, you're so repressed you want to stop some homosexuals from doing what makes them feel good ... an itching desire to deprive others of their consentual sexual adult joys... so much that it makes you hate them.There you go with the hate again, and where does this come from with respect to me? Where did I say that I hated Homosexuals? You wrongly lump me in with christians you know.You are right about alot of the things in the bible, they just don't seem to mesh with what should be right. So for that I don't know, I have a problem with alot of what the 35000 plus christian religions teach but then they rely on personal interpretations of written words that have been changed and reduced over thousands of years. There can only be one truth not 35000 different ones. no one ever gives credit to lucifer for being able to hide the truth by having so many different version that its nearly impossible to find among all the religions that exsist.

Now tell me Rich, why would a girl or rape victim assume something is wrong with themself, something "evil" in herself --pointing GUILT and SELF-HATRED at herself, the victim --instead of laying the blame where it belongs...on the man. This is too often what happens when men rape in America and other nations with religious Fundamentalism interwoven with the social fabric. Some places, if a woman claims she's raped, she needs witnesses or her word means nothing.That this happens is an atrocity

"Tell me NOTHING about "immorality", when you don't even know yourself. It takes the intelligence of a bird brain to quote verses from the Bible. Yes! Even a parrot can do that."

Lets not forget here that I didn't mention or quote verses from the bible until you asked me for some

"I haven't heard "God" say any such thing.

Oh you mean that book.Really --a list of verses in that book where God himself specifies homosexuality as a sin?"

And what basis do you have for claiming I know NOTHING about immorality? This wasn't about immorality as a whole but about Homosexuality.

"Oh you mean that book."Let me once again state for the record my belief in the bible is limited. I Don't base my Faith soley on the words in the bible, very different from christians you are talking about here. Here is some scriptures that might interest you. Just so you know its from the Book of Mormon.Jacob chapter 222 And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride. And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime, my heart would rejoice exceedingly because of you.

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

24 Behold, David and Solomon• truly had many wives• and concubines, which thing was abominable• before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a arighteous• branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone• cwife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed• be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed• unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms•, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father•, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.

35 Behold, ye have done greater• iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness• of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

Your basis for showing homosexuality to be sinless and natural is to say it exists in nature proven by science, God created nature, therefore homosexuality is sinless, bible is wrong.I apply this same logic across he board.Theft is a sin, it ocurrs naturally in behavior of animals, God created animals that steal, theft is sinless, bible is wrong.The only tie between the two is that both are considered sins by Christianity. Theft is not homosexuality or visa versa, nor do I mean Homsexuals steal. same applies to my suggesting murder and other "sins" are related to this topic in the sense that they are considered sins by the bible and christianity. No comparison to homosexuality is implied by me in mentioning these together, or in other words I don't believe homosexuality and murder are the same, only that they are both sins as well as theft, envy(covet), rape, lying, ect... To take from my posts that I hate homosexuals or have homophobia is grossly mistaken and reading your own bias into my words, ie if I think homosexuality is a sin then I must hate homosexuals. Huge bad leap for you to make in assuming this of me. I say homosexuality is wrong not homosexuals are bad as you implied.

Lemme post something here. You say the Bible is the answer. Which Bible? Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox? Each of the three wings has its own canon. So therefore I ask you jd, which Bible do you follow? The one with 66 books, the original Western Christian version with 77 books, or the Eastern Orthodox canon(s) which have more than the other churches. Which one is truly the so-called "Word of God" and how can you truly, as a mere mortal be qualified to judge which is the true revelation from Yahweh?

I'm not formally educated like other people that have posted here but I do love Jesus and serve him. My thoughts on this thread after reading it for about five minutes is that, yeah maybe in nature animals commit homosexual acts (but there not relationships). Jesus didn't come into the world to save the animals, he came so be the sacrafice for OUR sins. Animals probably don't know better but we have the word of God to tell us better. Besides everyone is instilled with a sense of right and wrong. If you don't believe that homosexuality is wrong then maybe you've hardened your heart enough to endulge in your debouchary. Just a thought.

No one knows what it is like to be homosexual unless you have walked in one's shoes. Let me tell you and whoever else who is reading this, I have lived a Christian life all of my life, I was raised in a Christian home with Christian believes, with Christian relatives, but still yet I have struggled being attracted to the same gender more than the opposite gender. NO, NO, NO, NO, and etc this is coming from someone who struggles the homosexual lifestyle day by day, homosexual behavior is not certainly a choice, and I dare you people who has never walked in our shoes to tell us that it is a choice. I know what you straight people and you Christians believe, all you want to do is judge, and not really consider the ones who are like me. I can see how Christian people would think that it is a choice, but they only base their facts on just the Christian beliefs. Out of my whole life of 38 years, I have sat back and watched, learned, and focused on Christians and their ways and actions towards the homosexuals. The Christians, only focuses on the Christian believes, but they never focus or considers on the homosexuals who struggles day by day with this lifestyle. Even though I have went to church and was raised in a Christian home all of my life, it just out rages me how you straight and Christian people are. Until you understand what we homosexuals, and what we go through with the struggles of this way, don't anyone criticize or tell us it is a choice, because it absolutely is not. Even though I don't live a homosexual lifestyle with someone with the same gender as I am, these feelings are there and real, these attractions for the same gender are there, has been all of my life. and it kills me every day, it eats me alive to have these feelings, and not really understand them. I have never experienced love before until this one day when I met this person of the same gender. I never asked to be this way, never wanted it, but it is within me, and that is why I consider myself as a homosexual, and I have been with the same gender before a few times in my past, and it really feels good. I have dated and been with I know 13 of the opposite gender, in my life time, and I am sure there are more, and you would think that out of all of those, I would find love, and would find the attraction to be more with the opposite gender than with the same, but no. I have to wake up every morning in fear that even though I need love desperately in my life I will never find it with the opposite gender, due to these feelings that I have for the same gender. Nobody knows what it is like to be this way, it just hurts so bad to wake up every morning to have these feelings for this person and not to be able to show or share the feelings with that person. When you see these homosexuals (gay and lesbians), who is out there that is open, who seems like it is okay, to live that way for example, Ellen DeGeneres they have lived with those feelings all of their life, and when a person who is straight or not, in whatever situation they are in, they get to a point to where they cannot stand it any more, and they feel like the only way to cope with how they really are they come out and they just want to be happy. I do have a child physically from the opposite gender, all together I was with that person for 10 years. Yes, I do care and love that person, but I don't love that person like two people in a relationship loves each other, or like a married couple should love their spouse, but actually the marriage wasn't for me, was not real, and true, because of still having these feelings that I have towards this person of the same gender and being attracted more to the same gender than the opposite. I do know for a fact from experience homosexual lifestyle is not a choice, and even though I am who I am, I don't believe in same sex marriage, but I do believe in love with whomever it is, and I know what it feels like to be wanted and loved from the same gender. My advice to the straight, to the Christians and whoever else, I know that I am going to give this advice to my child, and I really hope my child doesn't turn out to be like me, but the advice is no matter how someone is living their life, whether they are living it right or if they are living it wrong, we should never, ever judge, criticize, or hate them, we need to love them. That also applies or goes for family members who struggles with their loved one who is homosexual or a alcoholic, or a drug addict and etc. I don't know if what I have said has helped anyone, but before anyone says that a homosexual lifestyle is a choice, how about putting your lifestyle to the side and research, and try to understand our way of lifestyle, before any decisions are made.

I will post because as a Person of spiritual belief I must say this..I never post unless I strongly believe in what Iam saying...lets start out with Nature:Nature's design is one we will probably never understand, though we might get somethings write..somethings we cannot...I was raised Very religious to the point that I my family forced us to live in a Bubble away from the world..If I questioned anything I was either Not GODFEARING,OR GODBELIEVING..Lookup the meaning of"CULT" and you will see what I mean..I hear alot of RELIGIOUS group Fight amongst eachother,Christians on Christians Christians on muslims,Muslims on Jews and so Fourth with EVERY GROUP Claiming to be RIGHT..if you read your New testament I want to know where CHRIST SPOKE OF GAYS,PROSITUTES,etc? NAME ONE PLACE? You wont find it..because CHRIST SPOKE OF LOVE,and Healing, secondly)When Christ Died on the cross all the OLD testament ways were to be thrown out including all the plagues that have happend, deaths, etc Christ never said OKAY since I died somethings from the old testament we should practice and other things NOT..IF YOU BELIEVE IN the Jewish Religion then you must adhere to JEWISH laws and CHRIST DID, SINCE CHRIST DIED a jew so you shall aswell,BUT I DONT see any christian,muslim,mormon doing these practice..I remember the quote from the bible"It's easier to Honor god with thy tongue but to honor god with Thy heart is even harder"We want to be Good unjudgemental People but YET WE DO IT all the time...I know religious People who have a gay memeber of there family and Disown the person HOW WRONG AND EVIL IS THAT doesn't it say "Judge Lest He be JUDGED"isnt that quote mean anything to you? YOU Judge all day everyday and yet feel compelled to do it in your own lifes..for me the matter is not simply black and white..I remember a time when SLAVERY WAS JUSTIFIED with BIBLE teachings..and this is comin from RELIGIOUS PEOPLE who hung,burned and killed innocent slaves,woman,chrildren...Lets take a look at the pervese side of religious VIEWS..I BELIEVE that life is about exploration,GROWING,and GENUINE UNDERSTANDING of the world to open your heart and mind to Possibility that not everything should be a certain order and a certain way because 6000 year old text commands it or that a certain group commands it or because of command practices...we should all PRACTICE what we preach and express ourselves without hurting ANYONE..LOVE AND LIGHT TO ALL MY FELLOW LGBT people on here

What do you think, please, of Obadiah Shoher's interpretation of the story? (here: samsonblinded.org/blog/genesis-37.htm ) He takes the text literally to prove that the brothers played a practical joke on Yosef rather than intended to murder him or sell him into slavery. His argument seems fairly strong to me, but I'd like to hear other opinions.