and if they were contiguous with non-beta land, you'd be able to just walk over there

[13:18]

Rex Cronon:

hi kitto

[13:18]

Kooky Jetaime:

Zero - Perhaps Beta regions should have their own icon, in line with the NoScript/NoBuild/NoPush/Voice

[13:18]

Benja Kepler:

I've met people in the beta grid complaining about losing money (after a grid reload) so there will be some confusion...

[13:18]

Tree Kyomoon wonders if poppy is angry

[13:18]

Zero Linden:

Sq. - yes, "Mind the gap" and all

[13:18]

Poppy Linden is just furrowed

[13:18]

Saijanai Kuhn:

so, with mono's advent starting asap, I assume that you can at least have mono-enabled sims on the het grid? versin 1?

[13:18]

Zero Linden:

Kooky - I like that... though do know if we'll have that at the start

[13:18]

Kooky Jetaime:

Well, its easy and unmistakeable

[13:18]

Zero Linden:

Yes - Mono will be one of the first uses of HetGrid1

[13:19]

Squirrel Wood:

Mmm. Mono!

[13:19]

Saijanai Kuhn:

I've got a brainstorm I'd like to run by yo and everyone lese about LSL and mono...

[13:19]

Zero Linden:

or, to put it another way, we needed HetGrid1 to be able to ship mono

[13:19]

Squirrel Wood:

Can't wait for Mono ^^

[13:19]

Tree Kyomoon:

zero I heard a rumour that you are considering ECMA for LSL , is there any truth to that?

[13:19]

Kooky Jetaime:

jeesh, in school the goal was to avoid mono.. now we're being asked to embrace it... .weird

[13:19]

Wyn Galbraith still can't get over that it sounds like an illness... "When we all get Mono."

[13:19]

Zero Linden:

No, tree, that is a rumour

[13:19]

Benja Kepler:

Spanish for monkey as well

[13:20]

Rex Cronon:

so we need to get the beta viewer login into the beta grid and from betagrid connect to the main grid?

[13:20]

Tree Kyomoon cant remember if I started that rumour or not

[13:20]

Wyn Galbraith:

Mono is Spanish for monkey?

[13:20]

Saijanai Kuhn:

I think I quoted you as saying you liked ECMA but maybe I said it wrong

[13:20]

Wyn Galbraith:

LOL Tree.

[13:20]

Benja Kepler:

yes, Wyn

[13:20]

Zero Linden:

Rex, no no.

[13:20]

Wyn Galbraith:

Well, that's interesting.

[13:20]

Zero Linden:

Okay, hold on

[13:20]

Zero Linden:

SO

[13:21]

Wyn Galbraith holds on so she doesn't fall off ;)

[13:21]

Rex Cronon:

maybe u should post on the blog zero. i think others wil be confused by this too

[13:21]

Zero Linden:

1) The "Beta Grid" may still be used at times for things in early beta -- In those cases, that grid will be a separate viewer download - and connect to a separate grid, where the accounts, L$, and land are "funny" and not tied to your real accounts

[13:22]

Zero Linden:

2) Generally, though, we'll test beta simulators by bringing up specifica regions on the "Main Grid" - where the simulator on that region will be "beta", but the accounts, L$ and land will be REAL

[13:23]

Zero Linden:

and it will be the same "grid" - meaning you can IM, TP, fly to/from the normal regions we love

[13:23]

Tree Kyomoon:

will all regions be het soon?

[13:23]

Saijanai Kuhn:

after tommorrow?

[13:23]

Kooky Jetaime:

Zero, are the beta sims on the Grid going to be more analogous to Beta sims or RCs?

[13:23]

Benja Kepler:

will beta sims in live grid have live businesses ?

[13:24]

Zero Linden:

In those cases, a viewer download *may* be needed to try out all the new features... but you will be able to go there with the current viewer at the time, and any special viewer for such land will work on the existing regions

[13:24]

Kooky Jetaime:

All made possible by CAPS.. and not the key on your keyboard.

[13:24]

Zero Linden:

Yes, after tomorrow, the grid will be configured so that we can run any region we want at any version of the simulator and server software

[13:24]

Squirrel Wood:

W00t!

[13:24]

Kitto Flora:

Are there any regions of type 2) today?

[13:25]

Saijanai Kuhn:

on the beta grid?

[13:25]

Zero Linden:

Kooky- probably in more cases RCs..... but in some cases, like mono - they'll be very "beta" ish and be up for testing for weeks

[13:25]

Saijanai Kuhn:

;-)

[13:25]

Tree Kyomoon:

can region owners request a switch to het or do we just wait?

[13:25]

Saijanai Kuhn:

they're AL het ager tomorrow

[13:25]

Saijanai Kuhn:

ALL het after tomorrow

[13:25]

Zero Linden:

Kooky - actually, most of it was made possible by "message liberation" which enabled multiple versions to be on the grid at once

[13:25]

Rex Cronon:

so there are going to be beta sims on the maing grid that are going to be accesible with the normal viewer

[13:25]

Zero Linden:

this work is the scripting and management tools to make use of it

[13:25]

Kooky Jetaime:

oh well..

[13:26]

Kooky Jetaime:

I'm lost in the various things going on

[13:26]

Squirrel Wood:

and these beta sims will give you ample warning about them being beta

[13:26]

Benja Kepler:

but not like the beta grid .... so why not call them something else? like deltas or something

[13:26]

Zero Linden:

Tree - in HetGrid phase 1, no region owners can't control when they run some version, beta or release ---

oh ! i see what you are saying - no that is not what i meant. but yeah.

[13:47]

Tree Kyomoon:

Saij I do!

[13:48]

Tree Kyomoon:

and I m a scripter too!

[13:48]

Saijanai Kuhn:

but everyone else has said its not important.

[13:48]

Zero Linden:

Rex - I suppose that would only work on attachments?

[13:48]

Kooky Jetaime:

Sai, I do to.but new features arn't going to be implimented until after Mono is in place and full swing

[13:48]

JayR Cela:

LOL all I do is modd other peoples scripts :_)

[13:48]

Rex Cronon:

yes zero

[13:48]

Kooky Jetaime:

And I totally appreciate that

[13:48]

Tree Kyomoon:

I script other peoples mods

[13:48]

Kooky Jetaime:

Do one thing at a time, do it well, and then move on

[13:48]

Rex Cronon:

last week somebody was spamming using that even here

[13:49]

Kooky Jetaime:

If that was how things were done, we wouldn't have ended up with this frigging memory leak in SL-Voice clients

[13:49]

Saijanai Kuhn:

that's what I'm asking for: is a way to speedup up the process: until mono is fully implemented, give us a LSL 3 option where we can test with new features, but they won't work everywhere until the conversio is complete

[13:49]

JayR Cela:

Rex I was attacked here last week and at Char Lindens places yesterday

[13:49]

Saijanai Kuhn:

this would also give sim owners incentive to convert to mono compliant scripts faster: they get new features

[13:49]

Tree Kyomoon:

yeah lsl 3 on some places would be awesome

[13:49]

Rex Cronon:

there is no way to detect who is spamming u

[13:49]

Kooky Jetaime:

Sai, just hold your horses and wait... we don't want to much parallel development going on

[13:50]

Kooky Jetaime:

it creates a nightmare

[13:50]

Saijanai Kuhn:

its not that parallel.

[13:50]

Benja Kepler:

Zero, excuse me for asking what you may have said already, but is the Beta Grid going to be switched off at some point?

[13:50]

Zero Linden:

Saijanai - the big issue is that while new scripting features (not function calls, real new langauge fatures like arrays) would be great, it we don't have the man power to do this now or near term

[13:51]

Tess Linden:

Benja, i can answer that

[13:51]

Kitto Flora:

Zero: Does that imply that LL *does* have the manpower for new LSL function calls?

[13:51]

Benja Kepler:

thx Tess

[13:51]

Saijanai Kuhn:

I can see that but "near term" is relative. Wating until all sims are mono will take 6 months to year.

[13:52]

Tess Linden:

Benja - no Beta grids will not be switched off because we need to be able to test functionality that may affect the state of the grid that might not be safe on the main grid

[13:52]

JayR Cela:

off topic please whats up with tomorrows back end updates

[13:52]

Benja Kepler:

ok, Tess, thanks

[13:52]

Saijanai Kuhn:

er, HetGrid...

[13:52]

Tess Linden:

for example, if object permissions was one change we made, we would want to test that out on a beta grid first

[13:53]

JayR Cela:

Saij does this mean I will be able to TP without loosing my attachments ??

all I would want is for some work to start (and appear) earlier than AFTER all the sims are converted

[13:53]

Rex Cronon:

i shouldn't take that long to convert a sim

[13:53]

Saijanai Kuhn:

as I understand it, all scripts should be tested before conversion...

[13:54]

Zero Linden:

One of the big things that goes out tomorrow is making some of the central services save and restore their dynamic state so that we can upgrade them live in the future

[13:54]

otakup0pe Neumann:

which central services ? 'backbone' ?

[13:54]

Zero Linden:

for example, there is a server that manages the "agent presence" information - basically if you are on-line and if so where

[13:54]

JayR Cela:

Zero that sounds good !:_)

[13:54]

Saijanai Kuhn:

and you don't want to convert a sim without testing to see if something breaks...

[13:54]

Zero Linden:

this information isn't persistant -

[13:54]

Zero Linden:

at present, if that server goes down (intentionally or accidentaly), all that information is lost

[13:54]

otakup0pe Neumann:

so making the glue more upgradable.

[13:54]

otakup0pe Neumann:

mmm glue.

[13:54]

Zero Linden:

and it takes 5 to 10 min. for it all to come back.....

[13:55]

Zero Linden:

after tomorrow - when it gets shut down it saves state and restores it on start

[13:55]

Zero Linden:

SO - we can decided to upgrade it at anytime

[13:55]

Rex Cronon:

so would it save its state at periodical intervals?

[13:55]

Saijanai Kuhn:

so a fast-boot optio for sims now...

[13:55]

Kooky Jetaime:

Well, that helps intentional downs, but what about accidentals?

[13:55]

Tess Linden:

Saijanai, what do you mean by "all sims are het grid?"

[13:56]

Zero Linden:

Rex - it could, but not clear it would be of big value - so far the two down cases are

[13:56]

Zero Linden:

1) we want to upgrade the code - but in this case we are shutting down cleanly

[13:56]

Benja Kepler:

sounds like an audit trail could be built in too, Zero, after a crash you'd know where everything/one was

[13:56]

Zero Linden:

2) the machine goes wonky

[13:56]

Saijanai Kuhn:

someone asked if there was a conversion by sim, to het grid... After tomorrow, the entire grid is het grid

[13:56]

Zero Linden:

in the later - it takes more than 5 min. for us to get it diagnosed and replaced

[13:56]

Zero Linden:

so saving the data or having a recent backup woulnd't help - the data is all stale

[13:57]

Zero Linden:

So yes, we could periodically save, but by the time we got the machine up, it would all be stale data ---- in those cases, better to just let the service "heal"

[13:57]

Benja Kepler:

the downside being that after a tp with a shoe up your butt, a relog could find it still there?

[13:58]

Zero Linden:

With other services though, yes, having periodic checkpoints is a fine idea .... just like what we do with sims

[13:58]

Rex Cronon:

it could help u pinpoint what caused the crash

[13:58]

Tess Linden:

Saijanai, after tomorrow, we have the capability of placing beta regions live on the grid that run a different server code

[13:58]

Zero Linden:

well Benja, the, er, placement of the shoe isn't part of that data set

[13:58]

Kooky Jetaime:

Hey Zero, speaking of state saves..... Something to mull around by the watercooler, Is there any way to get more frequent saves of assets on a sim, so that if I say, drop a nocopy object, the sim crashes a minute later, I don't lose that object?

[13:58]

Benja Kepler blushes

[13:58]

Kooky Jetaime:

Or some other methodology to stop that irritating fact.

[13:58]

Saijanai Kuhn:

I understand, Tess. Someone ELSE was asking about sim-by-sim conversion to hetgrid, and I replied that "all sims are het grid"

[13:59]

Zero Linden:

Kooky - there has been a background design project to make sim-states be journaled...

[13:59]

Tess Linden:

ohh, gotcha

[13:59]

Zero Linden:

so each operation like that would write out a log entry

[13:59]

Zero Linden:

and then we could, on crash, load the last sim-state and replay the journal

[13:59]

Zero Linden:

but... hasn't been much coding on that...

[13:59]

Kooky Jetaime:

Oh, I think that would be the biggest best thing that could be done

[14:00]

Squirrel Wood:

It would certainly help

[14:00]

Saijanai Kuhn:

My one-line explanation for het grid is that it allows the Lindens to customize/individualize each sim's code

[14:00]

Kooky Jetaime:

That to me is certainly a "MUST HAVE" so why isn't it being given any priority?

[14:00]

Kitto Flora:

I dont get many cases of lost engines because of rez followed by sim-crash.

[14:00]

Kooky Jetaime:

Not to mention owenrs of the millions of lindens worth of lost inventory from those situations thinking its a must have

[14:00]

Saijanai Kuhn:

for every upgrade, there is its proper time and order-of-implementation...

[14:00]

Kitto Flora:

Maybe 2 a year.

[14:01]

Zero Linden:

Kooky - 'cause there are all at least 50 such "must have" projects - and we can't really do all of them

[14:01]

Tess Linden:

there is a lot of work being done to keep second life running, like the bug that zero mentioned earlier, that are much more time-constrained

[14:01]

Kooky Jetaime:

... I think the journaling could be considered more of a Must Have than voice..

[14:01]

Saijanai Kuhn:

was is trivial compared to some of this stuff

[14:01]

Kooky Jetaime:

Not to pick on poor voice..but..

[14:01]

Zero Linden:

and they are all of that urgency: Like reworking L$ transactions so that we don't lose any and can do them wtihout a single central DB

[14:01]

otakup0pe Neumann:

Much of the work on voice happened outside LL if i'm not mistaken.

[14:01]

Tree Kyomoon hopes that SL innovation never stops because of critical mass

[14:02]

Zero Linden:

like enabling HetGrid so that we can test stuff out in a real environment, and stage our deploys

[14:02]

otakup0pe Neumann:

Better example would have been mono ;)

[14:02]

JayR Cela:

Kooky pick on voice all you want to / it was a poor decision to implement it so fast

[14:02]

Kitto Flora:

Bigger problem is 'take' and the take process crashes before object arives in Inv. and leaves an in-world gost. Had 3 in 18 hours of them. 4 in the last week.

[14:02]

Tess Linden:

:)

[14:02]

Squirrel Wood:

JayR voice has been in testing for months. it was certainly NOT rushed out

[14:02]

Benja Kepler:

all good stuff, Zero, Tess :)

[14:02]

otakup0pe Neumann:

Months if not years

[14:02]

otakup0pe Neumann:

It was a while :o

[14:02]

Kooky Jetaime:

((Not to mention the sheer amount of additional work that Voice and its implimentation have created, such as the search for the memory leaks, rewriting the Chatterbox that many people hate in the first place, etc etc)

[14:02]

JayR Cela:

Squirell they why is it still so borked

[14:03]

Rex Cronon:

r those ghost objects still running their scripts?

[14:03]

Tree Kyomoon:

/yes voice was not rushed, but its unprecidented technology

[14:03]

otakup0pe Neumann:

JayR if it makes you feel better voice hasn't worked at all for me in weeks.

[14:03]

Kooky Jetaime:

Voice don't work for me

[14:03]

Kooky Jetaime:

but

[14:03]

Squirrel Wood:

Jay... when you have 8000 people talking it creates a massive load :p

[14:03]

otakup0pe Neumann:

Everything short of reinstalling osX.

[14:03]

Tree Kyomoon:

/voice works for me

[14:03]

Kooky Jetaime:

I'm not going to open that can of worms

[14:03]

Zero Linden:

Yes, voice was done with much outside help -- but the bulk of the voice technology had little to do with the innards of SL, and something others have better expertise about

[14:03]

Zero Linden:

sim state jouranling is clearly something we'd have to do

[14:03]

Saijanai Kuhn:

eh, voice is available on many other MMORPGs. It's not a core (SL) server technology

[14:03]

Kitto Flora:

Rex: at least one of the scripts is still running in the gost, and at least one is not.

[14:04]

Kooky Jetaime:

Zero - is there a list somewhere of the Current "Must Have's" and their priority?

[14:04]

Kooky Jetaime:

or just pjira?

[14:05]

Rex Cronon:

u could put a scripts that listens on a specific channel for a specific command from u. and when it hears it, will kill itself

[14:05]

Zero Linden:

kooky- there isn't a public list --- but I agree there should be

[14:05]

Saijanai Kuhn:

can llDie kill a ghost?

[14:05]

Kooky Jetaime:

Zero, something public and votable (simply)

[14:05]

Rex Cronon:

it should work

[14:06]

Tree Kyomoon:

/isnt that what Jira is?

[14:06]

Saijanai Kuhn:

I'm still waitng for scripting to become a top-level category/project in jira

[14:06]

Kooky Jetaime:

because I think that every business owner would agree that sim journaling (and other servers) is much higher priority than Voice, Mono, Het Grid, Etc, because your dealing with actual value

[14:06]

Kitto Flora:

Either llDies does not work in that circumstance, or the script it is in is not running (when at least one other is)

[14:06]

Kooky Jetaime:

And theres nothing on pjira for journal

[14:06]

Saijanai Kuhn:

but a lot of these (not voice) are fundamental architectural changes that make waht you want easier to implement

[14:07]

Zero Linden:

Kooky - the only problem with votable is that many of the things aren't sexy or user facing --- they'd never get votes: "Partition backbone processes" for example doesn't sound too interesting

[14:07]

Squirrel Wood:

Not neccessarily

[14:07]

Zero Linden:

or criticle

[14:07]

Kooky Jetaime:

Understandable...

[14:07]

Kooky Jetaime:

ok, no voting..that works

[14:07]

otakup0pe Neumann:

man i find "partition backbone processes" sexy

[14:07]

Kooky Jetaime:

I sometimes wonder about the whole voting concept on pjira anyways.

[14:07]

Kitto Flora:

Anyways - the ghost is not the big problem. The failure to transfer to Inv is the problem.

[14:07]

Zero Linden:

but it is holding us back from moving many things into services, whch in turn is keeping us tied to that central DB

[14:07]

Rex Cronon:

if is explained clearly what it is supposed to do, and affects money...

[14:07]

Saijanai Kuhn:

even when things should be obvious, they don't get votes

[14:07]

Zero Linden:

(all hail the central DB)

[14:08]

otakup0pe Neumann:

all hail web services

[14:08]

Saijanai Kuhn:

(like my call for scripting to become a top-level category/project in jira, for instance)

[14:08]

otakup0pe Neumann:

the central db is dead long live the central db.

[14:08]

Tree Kyomoon:

so the move is to go away from a central DB?

[14:08]

Kooky Jetaime:

Heh Sai

[14:08]

Zero Linden:

Tree - absolutely -

[14:08]

JayR Cela:

zero speaking of the DB I thought SL was supposed to upgrade the MySQL to a newer more current version

[14:08]

Tree Kyomoon:

good!

[14:09]

Zero Linden:

We are running MySQL 5 almost everywhere I think

[14:09]

JayR Cela:

ooops :( my mistake / well then homecome it still sucks

[14:09]

otakup0pe Neumann:

sucks - technical term.

[14:09]

Squirrel Wood:

Yay! A sim rollback due to a crash just killed a friends new no-copy bed and about 3000L worth of animations :(

[14:09]

Zero Linden:

well - the office here errupts in correcting me - there is still one major DB that is MySQL 4