Theaetetus:No, but it's creepy to get angry when someone isn't interested in a sex-only relationship. She dodged a bullet there, I think.

Who said anything about a sex-only relationship? You have an extremely limited view of human nature. That would go a long way towards explaining the demeanor of someone who likes to pick fights with strangers on the internet for kicks.

Theaetetus:It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

I think you are misinterpreting him a little.

I've asked women out who I've maybe chatted to once or twice and got the 'I think we should just be friends' line. This tells me 2 things. They are aware that I'm asking them out because I'm attracted to them, not just because I want to talk about the latest Marvel Action Movie and they are not attracted to me.

Now, I have enough friends anyway. I already have too many that I can't hang out with them as much as I want. If I tried to start a friendship with every girl I asked out it would just get stupid. It's not that I wouldn't want to be friends with them. It's more that I only need so many friends. But I'm not going to stop asking girls out just because I can't take on anymore friends.

It's not about hating the girl for saying no. It's about being honest with them and simply saying that I'm not looking for a friendship but a relationship. If they don't want that, fair enough.

As far as I'm concerned, that kind of behavior isn't creepy, it's just honest.

Millennium:fredklein: No two situations are EXACTLY alike. Therefore, a solution that works for one situation would never work, and should never, ever be attempted in a different, but similar situation. Got it.

More like "No two people are EXACTLY alike. Therefore, a solution that works for one person might not work for another person, and should not be attempted until you know why it worked for that person and can be confident it will work for you."

Because every lonely guy can afford to get a degree in psychology to figure out why women like some guys and not others.

If I see a guy unlock a safe with the combo 1-2-3-4-5*, I'm going to try the same combination. I'm not going to sit there and try to figure out WHY the combination worked (maybe the first guy unlocked it on Jan 2, at 3:45pm), I'm just gonna try it. Especially if I see lots of other guys use that combination.

*1-2-3-4-5? I have the same combination on my luggage!

"Don't be creepy" is probably the only universal rule when it comes to dealing with women. The basics are pretty, well, basic.

1) Never, ever, ever continue to pursue someone who has stated that she's not interested. A brief mistake here can follow you for years.

And women should never play hard-to-get. Then men would never have to continue pursuing them.

2) Do not take steps to look menacing (difficulty: using sexual humor with a stranger counts as menacing). But also do not go out of your way to not look menacing; that's even creepier.

So, don't be menacing (which, I'll just point out is a highly subjective thing- how am I supposed to read her mind to know what she thinks is 'menacing'??"), and don't NOT be menacing.

Theaetetus:udhq: Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

You do realize that there is more than sex to a romantic relationship, right?

You're projecting your own creepiness on other people in this thread.....

Pro-tip: when you've told a story about how other people have called you creepy, and others in the thread agree that you sound creepy, it's probably a bit late to try the "NO U ARE!" tactic.

Right, because I'm the guy white-knighting a gender studies thread in a transparent attempt to gain the attention and approval of anonymous internet women.

The sound of one hand clapping:Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

I think you are misinterpreting him a little.

I've asked women out who I've maybe chatted to once or twice and got the 'I think we should just be friends' line. This tells me 2 things. They are aware that I'm asking them out because I'm attracted to them, not just because I want to talk about the latest Marvel Action Movie and they are not attracted to me.

Now, I have enough friends anyway. I already have too many that I can't hang out with them as much as I want. If I tried to start a friendship with every girl I asked out it would just get stupid. It's not that I wouldn't want to be friends with them. It's more that I only need so many friends. But I'm not going to stop asking girls out just because I can't take on anymore friends.

It's not about hating the girl for saying no. It's about being honest with them and simply saying that I'm not looking for a friendship but a relationship. If they don't want that, fair enough.

As far as I'm concerned, that kind of behavior isn't creepy, it's just honest.

Yep, I'm assuming most guys all got this except for Theaetetus. But hopefully after 2 dozen posts this one explains it well enough that he doesn't have to derail the thread anymore.

browntimmy:The sound of one hand clapping: Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

I think you are misinterpreting him a little.

I've asked women out who I've maybe chatted to once or twice and got the 'I think we should just be friends' line. This tells me 2 things. They are aware that I'm asking them out because I'm attracted to them, not just because I want to talk about the latest Marvel Action Movie and they are not attracted to me.

Now, I have enough friends anyway. I already have too many that I can't hang out with them as much as I want. If I tried to start a friendship with every girl I asked out it would just get stupid. It's not that I wouldn't want to be friends with them. It's more that I only need so many friends. But I'm not going to stop asking girls out just because I can't take on anymore friends.

It's not about hating the girl for saying no. It's about being honest with them and simply saying that I'm not looking for a friendship but a relationship. If they don't want that, fair enough.

As far as I'm concerned, that kind of behavior isn't creepy, it's just honest.

Yep, I'm assuming most guys all got this except for Theaetetus. But hopefully after 2 dozen posts this one explains it well enough that he doesn't have to derail the thread anymore.

fredklein:If I see a guy unlock a safe with the combo 1-2-3-4-5*, I'm going to try the same combination. I'm not going to sit there and try to figure out WHY the combination worked (maybe the first guy unlocked it on Jan 2, at 3:45pm), I'm just gonna try it. Especially if I see lots of other guys use that combination.

Note to observers that now fred has gone from talking about different women, to not just the same woman, but the same woman who has been "unlocked" by "lots of guys".

You two are being willfully ignorant of the fact that he wasn't honest. He thought she wasn't interesting to talk to even platonic yet wanted to be in a relationship. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, and anyone with an ounce of intelligence will recognize someone that BORES you isn't good for any kind of relationship unless all you are interested in is farking. And if that's what you wanted in the first place, don't go through the motions of making it like you want a relationship with them.

The sound of one hand clapping:Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

I think you are misinterpreting him a little.

I've asked women out who I've maybe chatted to once or twice and got the 'I think we should just be friends' line. This tells me 2 things. They are aware that I'm asking them out because I'm attracted to them, not just because I want to talk about the latest Marvel Action Movie and they are not attracted to me.

Now, I have enough friends anyway. I already have too many that I can't hang out with them as much as I want. If I tried to start a friendship with every girl I asked out it would just get stupid. It's not that I wouldn't want to be friends with them. It's more that I only need so many friends. But I'm not going to stop asking girls out just because I can't take on anymore friends.

It's not about hating the girl for saying no. It's about being honest with them and simply saying that I'm not looking for a friendship but a relationship. If they don't want that, fair enough.

As far as I'm concerned, that kind of behavior isn't creepy, it's just honest.

Oh, I get it now, he thinks I was "angry" for not wanting to be friends with a woman I asked out.

In all fairness, there's probably a decent shot that she didn't want to actually be "friends", it's just something you say in that situation.

Chances are, at that point, we both wanted the same thing: to agree that if we saw each other again in public, we would briefly-but-cordially acknowledge one another, but nothing else. My response was essentially just the caveat of "don't call me to ask you for help moving at the end of the semester."

udhq:Theaetetus: udhq: Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

You do realize that there is more than sex to a romantic relationship, right?

You're projecting your own creepiness on other people in this thread.....

Pro-tip: when you've told a story about how other people have called you creepy, and others in the thread agree that you sound creepy, it's probably a bit late to try the "NO U ARE!" tactic.

Right, because I'm the guy white-knighting a gender studies thread in a transparent attempt to gain the attention and approval of anonymous internet women.

fredklein:Because every lonely guy can afford to get a degree in psychology to figure out why women like some guys and not others.

If I see a guy unlock a safe with the combo 1-2-3-4-5*, I'm going to try the same combination. I'm not going to sit there and try to figure out WHY the combination worked (maybe the first guy unlocked it on Jan 2, at 3:45pm), I'm just gonna try it. Especially if I see lots of other guys use that combination.

Safes are not people. Safes don't have brains or hormones; they react the same way to the same action every time. People don't do that; you don't do it either. Why would you expect women to be any different?

And women should never play hard-to-get. Then men would never have to continue pursuing them.

Playing hard-to-get is a cruel thing to do. You do not want to end up with someone who would play with your emotions in such a heartless manner; just write her off and move on with your life. She won't be back.

However, what is this "have to continue pursuing them"? This does not happen. You always have the option to stop and look for another fish in the sea; nothing binds you to continue pursuing her.

So, don't be menacing (which, I'll just point out is a highly subjective thing- how am I supposed to read her mind to know what she thinks is 'menacing'??")...

Actually, the basics aren't really subjective at all: societal defaults do have their uses. Don't make a habit of looking scary or consistently reminding people of your (real or illusory) ability to overpower them, and you're pretty much there. Some people will still be frightened by you due to less-rational factors, but that's their own problem: there's nothing you can do about it, and trying will look fake to anyone who isn't worried about such factors.

gulogulo:browntimmy: Yep, I'm assuming most guys all got this except for Theaetetus. But hopefully after 2 dozen posts this one explains it well enough that he doesn't have to derail the thread anymore.

FirstNationalBastard: honesty is creepy now.

You two are being willfully ignorant of the fact that he wasn't honest. He thought she wasn't interesting to talk to even platonic yet wanted to be in a relationship. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, and anyone with an ounce of intelligence will recognize someone that BORES you isn't good for any kind of relationship unless all you are interested in is farking. And if that's what you wanted in the first place, don't go through the motions of making it like you want a relationship with them.

You see, the lie that you're propagating here is that a romantic relationship is simply a point further down the line from a platonic one on the same continuum.

It is not. It is a completely separate paradigm. And it is not purely sexual, as you and others keep insinuating. Sex is a single competent of the experience of a romantic relationship. I would describe the totality of that experience to be more a spiritual one than anything else, and I have genuine pity for anyone who's life experience has led them to believe otherwise.

Oh, and about the whole friend zone thing. It's pretty simple. Being in the friend zone means you're the guy who gets to fix her toilet and run her errands when her car is broken down while listening to her go on endlessly about her wonderful new boyfriend, who you know is just another con pickup artist. She's basically using you to deal with all her mundane shiat while someone else gets to enjoy her glamorous side.

It means she answers the door for you in a grandma house coat and no makeup and only bothers to make herself look pretty for said pickup artist, and asks you for opinions while modeling something sexy that she's wearing only for him. It means that she looks better and more endearing to you in that house coat than she will ever look to him all dolled up. It means listening to her give you well-intentioned but useless advice on how to meet some hypothetical woman somewhere when you'd just rather hook up with her because you're not interested in anyone else. It means being there for her when she's crying and losing her shiat after said pickup artist just tossed her aside and knowing that you would treat her so much better if only she'd let you.

Being in the friend zone means watching Pretty In Pink with her (since she's got the night off from banging her pickup artist), knowing that nothing more risque than a bucket of popcorn will happen while secretly wishing that Molly Ringwold had hooked up with Ducky at the end instead of that rich yuppie guy. You feel that brother's pain.

It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether. Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.

udhq:Theaetetus: udhq: My response was essentially just the caveat of "don't call me to ask you for help moving at the end of the semester."

Theaetetus: I was totally right about your anger issues.

The only thing I can glean from your posts is that I don't think you know what the word "anger" means.

If you genuinely think "anger" is synonymous with a refusal to be taken advantage of, well, then that would be entirely consistent with the personality profile of a guy white-knighting a gender studies thread in a desperate bid for attention from anonymous women on the internet.

udhq:I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends." Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move. On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to." She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways. A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation. I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.

Yeah, ok. You know, just going on what you typed, it could be that calling you "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame your for her hard feelings over the situation, or it just could be that you already had some issues with women before she even laid eyes on you, which she detected through that "honest and polite" smokescreen.

But I'm sure it was the first one and she's totally to blame for everything.

fredklein:And if Joe flirts a certain way with a woman and gets laid, then Bob should be able to flirt that way with a woman and get laid, too. Similar.

Why? Joe is not Bob. They are different people; they have different tools.

Let's flip it around. If I took a bunch of pictures of women and asked you to rank them from most to least attractive, you could certainly do that. At the top of this list would probably be some women who would only have to say hello to you and you'd already be fumbling for your zipper, and at the bottom might be some who would have a very hard time convincing you to date them (for some, it might even be impossible). I doubt this is controversial. If I were to take that same list and rank them, my ordering would probably differ at least a little from yours. Even if our lists agreed completely, I could certainly find men who would make different lists. I doubt that this is controversial either; you'd write it off as differing tastes between us.

Why, then, would it be controversial to flip the genders? Is it not possible that women might be attracted to some people, but not others, along similar lines? What makes this unfair?

Unless your dating experience is numbering into at least 5 digits, with a distribution across the entire US, you have a megaphone with a ten-thousand-watt amplifier and a volume control that goes up to 11, then you probably shouldn't be attempting to speak for all women.

Millennium:fredklein: And if Joe flirts a certain way with a woman and gets laid, then Bob should be able to flirt that way with a woman and get laid, too. Similar.

Why? Joe is not Bob. They are different people; they have different tools.

Let's flip it around. If I took a bunch of pictures of women and asked you to rank them from most to least attractive, you could certainly do that. At the top of this list would probably be some women who would only have to say hello to you and you'd already be fumbling for your zipper, and at the bottom might be some who would have a very hard time convincing you to date them (for some, it might even be impossible). I doubt this is controversial. If I were to take that same list and rank them, my ordering would probably differ at least a little from yours. Even if our lists agreed completely, I could certainly find men who would make different lists. I doubt that this is controversial either; you'd write it off as differing tastes between us.

Why, then, would it be controversial to flip the genders? Is it not possible that women might be attracted to some people, but not others, along similar lines? What makes this unfair?

ciberido:Tommy Moo: As for the "women like jerks" thing: I find that some women like nice guys and some girls like jerks and some girls like both. What all women like are strong guys. It's a quadrant. You can be mean and weak. Think of a sniveling, angry, bitter jerk who biatches on Facebook about how girls are stupid all the time. These guys never get laid. You can also be nice and weak, like the white knights who lavish girls with praise and complements and then jerk off on Saturday nights instead of taking a shot. It's the strength that women like, and sometimes weak nice guys mistake what girls want when they go for strong jerks. There are strong nice guys who do very well. Think of a club proprietor, the guy who goes around making sure everyone feels safe and everyone is having a good time.

Alright, I take it back. It would be a shame to put you on an ignore list because you do sometimes say things worth listening to.

I doubt you care much about my opinion, but for what little it's worth, you have redeemed yourself.

Nah, man. Even online affirmation always feels nice. Cheers! Let's have more good talks in the future.

Theaetetus:Magnanimous_J: Taught me a valuable lesson about being friends with women I wanted to date.

Is the lesson "actually be friends with them, rather than pretend to be their friend so you can nail them"?

No. The lesson learned was to be honest about the exchange of social currency. She was beautiful and I had a fair amount of money (for a college freshman anyway). I also had an imaginary connection to getting premium goods for cheap. I didn't actually have that, but that "connection" added to my social currency, in the same way that my knowing the owner of a hot new restaurant is social currency now.

The problem was we were negotiating the exchange of social currency for the wrong thing. She was willing to be my casual friend for free. Buying all those clothes allowed me to become a closer friend. The thing was, though, is that that friendship was meaningless to me. I wanted to date her. She probably knew that, and deflected it by offering me something that was worth less: her friendship in exchange for my money and business "connections." I of course thought that I could leverage that friendship into something more. It was a rookie mistake.

The lesson to take away is to be clear about what you are negotiating over. A woman is attracted to a man's ability as a provider and a high social standing among the tribe, it's science. So now, before I am willing to exchange my assets (my time and money) for hers (her beauty), I make sure we're on the same page. I don't want to hear about your problems, the dream you had last night, or how insensitive your boyfriend is unless you're willing to be a romantic partner for me. Otherwise, you're getting what you need out of our relationship and I'm getting nothing.

browntimmy:gulogulo:So..why were you friends with someone that only contacted you to help her move that you had no interest in on any other level other than dating? It sounds like you were pretty dishonest with the college friend about "being friends." "

Um, he said he first asked her out, that's a pretty honest indicator that he'd like to be more than friends.

No, her didn't want to be more than friends. "More than friends" means "friends and more." What he wanted was a girlfriend whom he had no interest in being friends with. That's LESS than friends.

Smelly Pirate Hooker:It is esp. amusing when men on Fark biatch about good-looking men being able to get away with behavior less-attractive men don't.

Because, obviously, that's never true of women. Men don't ever tolerate behavior from attractive women they wouldn't put up with for a second from the uggos.

They're very ethical and even-handed that way. I know from reading many Fark threads.

I don't think I've ever seen men claim they treat beautiful and ugly women the same in relationships and potential relationships. Almost 500 comments in the thread, and while I didn't read them all, has anyone made this claim?

What I see men doing in this thread is trying to point out that women are just as bad about things as they are. That, when coupled with the standard that more often than not men are the ones who approach the women first (and are expected to do so) leaves a double standard. It results in men who act exactly the same as the attractive men but are not found to be physically attractive get the creeper vibe. These men aren't allowed to hit on coworkers, waitresses, bartenders, salesgirls, etc etc because if they proceed with an unwanted advance it is creepy and they are horrible people for giving things a shot - at least according to many of the women in this thread and plenty of the stupid feminist internet articles. I don't think it is fair to guys with mediocre looks that they already have a strike against them and are then asked to make less attempts on top of that, all to keep some apparently fragile women from being annoyed. One would think that the feminist women would be against that double standard too, but all too often they want it both ways.

That said, obviously there are numerous double standards between the sexes, so don't read this post as me trying to say women have it easy and woe is men. This is just my opinion on this one issue.

udhq:It is not. It is a completely separate paradigm. And it is not purely sexual, as you and others keep insinuating. Sex is a single competent of the experience of a romantic relationship. I would describe the totality of that experience to be more a spiritual one than anything else, and I have genuine pity for anyone who's life experience has led them to believe otherwise.

Ok. What kind of relationship did you want to have with this woman? You didn't like talking to her, and you weren't ok with being just friends, so what then?

I suspect that this woman is one of those types who gets away with all kinds of shiat because she's hot. Which is why it's a shock to her when someone with a penis not only doesn't think it's funny, but punishes her for acting like an asshole. Because hot chicks should be able to do whatever they want. Duh.

Basically, people who act like assholes shouldn't be rewarded for it. But they often are. That's the world we live in, where attractive people (and/or rich people) usually get away with things that the less-attractive and less affluent are punished for.

misterpriapus:Oh, and about the whole friend zone thing. It's pretty simple. Being in the friend zone means you're the guy who gets to fix her toilet and run her errands when her car is broken down while listening to her go on endlessly about her wonderful new boyfriend, who you know is just another con pickup artist. She's basically using you to deal with all her mundane shiat while someone else gets to enjoy her glamorous side.

It means she answers the door for you in a grandma house coat and no makeup and only bothers to make herself look pretty for said pickup artist, and asks you for opinions while modeling something sexy that she's wearing only for him. It means that she looks better and more endearing to you in that house coat than she will ever look to him all dolled up. It means listening to her give you well-intentioned but useless advice on how to meet some hypothetical woman somewhere when you'd just rather hook up with her because you're not interested in anyone else. It means being there for her when she's crying and losing her shiat after said pickup artist just tossed her aside and knowing that you would treat her so much better if only she'd let you.

Being in the friend zone means watching Pretty In Pink with her (since she's got the night off from banging her pickup artist), knowing that nothing more risque than a bucket of popcorn will happen while secretly wishing that Molly Ringwold had hooked up with Ducky at the end instead of that rich yuppie guy. You feel that brother's pain.

It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether. Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.

Seriou ...

Don't be such a coward and doormat. Fixed. Or do it and understand its YOUR CHOICE to stay there.

It's best to just take a few 'how to pick up women' courses if you are no good at it. It's not a simple thing for a man to talk to women and, unless you were lucky enough to learn it naturally as you grew up, you really need someone to show you the ropes. I wish I had done it but I'm old and my time was before the internet.

Also, telling a man to treat a woman as a 'person' is not a good idea. You can't talk to a woman you are sexually interested in like you would another guy. The best you will get is 'friend' status which is worse than nothing.

The hardest thing to realize for a man is that a woman has absolutely, positively no interest whatsoever in sex. You have to play a lot of games to even get a woman to think about it. It's very maddening.

Never, ever ask a woman how to meet women, they have no idea. There are three types of men as far as women are concerned, the type they SAY they want, the type they THINK they want and the type they end up having sex with. The three types usually have nothing in common.

ciberido:Yeah, ok. You know, just going on what you typed, it could be that calling you "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame your for her hard feelings over the situation, or it just could be that you already had some issues with women before she even laid eyes on you, which she detected through that "honest and polite" smokescreen.

But I'm sure it was the first one and she's totally to blame for everything.

No one's "to blame for everything". I asked a girl out, and she wasn't interested. It's happened 10 times this week to every guy in this thread. There's no reason for either party to treat the simple interaction as a traumatic breech of decorum or personal safety.

My point is just that "creepy" is simply the female version of "biatch", it's a gender-loaded pejorative that people of a certain quality throw out there when they've got nothing else.

Millennium:fredklein: And if Joe flirts a certain way with a woman and gets laid, then Bob should be able to flirt that way with a woman and get laid, too. Similar.

Why? Joe is not Bob. They are different people; they have different tools.

Let's flip it around. If I took a bunch of pictures of women and asked you to rank them from most to least attractive, you could certainly do that. At the top of this list would probably be some women who would only have to say hello to you and you'd already be fumbling for your zipper, and at the bottom might be some who would have a very hard time convincing you to date them (for some, it might even be impossible). I doubt this is controversial. If I were to take that same list and rank them, my ordering would probably differ at least a little from yours. Even if our lists agreed completely, I could certainly find men who would make different lists. I doubt that this is controversial either; you'd write it off as differing tastes between us.

Why, then, would it be controversial to flip the genders? Is it not possible that women might be attracted to some people, but not others, along similar lines? What makes this unfair?

Sure, but I wouldn't be insulted and pissy about it if a woman I didn't want was hitting on me. As you say she would have to do a better job to land me (well, not me, I've got pretty low standards :P ) but I would never feel upset at her for making an attempt. Of course, since women approach and hit on guys so much less often than the other way around, maybe if I were a hot guy and getting constantly bombarded I'd find it more annoying. Of course, just like I think the wealth and power of celebrity is worth the cost, so too do I think being that 10 would be worth putting up with the extra nonsense.

Theaetetus:udhq: Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

You do realize that there is more than sex to a romantic relationship, right?

You're projecting your own creepiness on other people in this thread.....

Pro-tip: when you've told a story about how other people have called you creepy, and others in the thread agree that you sound creepy, it's probably a bit late to try the "NO U ARE!" tactic.

It's particularly telling that HE's telling the story in HIS words. If there is any bias to the story at all, it's presumably in his favor.

If you paint a story in such a way as to make it look like you were the wronged party, and people STILL tell you that you acted like a creep ... well, draw your own conclusions.

Smackledorfer:What I see men doing in this thread is trying to point out that women are just as bad about things as they are. That, when coupled with the standard that more often than not men are the ones who approach the women first (and are expected to do so) leaves a double standard. It results in men who act exactly the same as the attractive men but are not found to be physically attractive get the creeper vibe. These men aren't allowed to hit on coworkers, waitresses, bartenders, salesgirls, etc etc because if they proceed with an unwanted advance it is creepy and they are horrible people for giving things a shot - at least according to many of the women in this thread and plenty of the stupid feminist internet articles. I don't think it is fair to guys with mediocre looks that they already have a strike against them and are then asked to make less attempts on top of that, all to keep some apparently fragile women from being annoyed. One would think that the feminist women would be against that double standard too, but all too often they want it both ways.

That said, obviously there are numerous double standards between the sexes, so don't read this post as me trying to say women have it easy and woe is men. This is just my opinion on this one issue.

You really haven't been paying attention then. Of course, we read what confirms our own world views before we see things that may challenge it. Physically unattractive women don't get any more breaks than the physically unattractive men get. In fact, they are just as likely to get used. Think "used for sex" rather than "friend zone" in this case. And if you had been paying attention, it's not that they are unattractive that gets them labeled creepy, it's how they go about approaching a woman. I've talked to dozens of guys I didn't find attractive, only to find out that they were really awesome people and I loved to have a conversation with them. Not only that, I have seen it for more than just me. You don't want to initiate? That's fine. Not putting yourself out there, though increases the odds of you remaining lonely.

gulogulo:misterpriapus: Oh, and about the whole friend zone thing. It's pretty simple. Being in the friend zone means you're the guy who gets to fix her toilet and run her errands when her car is broken down while listening to her go on endlessly about her wonderful new boyfriend, who you know is just another con pickup artist. She's basically using you to deal with all her mundane shiat while someone else gets to enjoy her glamorous side.

It means she answers the door for you in a grandma house coat and no makeup and only bothers to make herself look pretty for said pickup artist, and asks you for opinions while modeling something sexy that she's wearing only for him. It means that she looks better and more endearing to you in that house coat than she will ever look to him all dolled up. It means listening to her give you well-intentioned but useless advice on how to meet some hypothetical woman somewhere when you'd just rather hook up with her because you're not interested in anyone else. It means being there for her when she's crying and losing her shiat after said pickup artist just tossed her aside and knowing that you would treat her so much better if only she'd let you.

Being in the friend zone means watching Pretty In Pink with her (since she's got the night off from banging her pickup artist), knowing that nothing more risque than a bucket of popcorn will happen while secretly wishing that Molly Ringwold had hooked up with Ducky at the end instead of that rich yuppie guy. You feel that brother's pain.

It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether. Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.

Don't be such a coward and doormat. Fixed. Or do it and understand its YOUR CHOICE to stay there.

Yeah. Either be upfront and risk getting smacked down, or just break it off completely. The "Nice Guy" act is complete bullshiat, and the "nice guys" in the "friend zone" are generally more manipulative scumbags than what this thread refer to as pick-up artists.

Theaetetus:So, when a man's ownership is involved, it's a different situation, but otherwise single women are all identical?

Firstly, your comment about "ownership" is... sexist. A man's wife is not his property. A woman's husband is not her property either. The terms 'his wife' or 'her husband' are there to show a relationship other than ownership.

Second, YES- meeting a single woman in, say, a bar, is a different situation from farking a woman who is married.

Third, I never said "identical". Many situations are similar enough that one tactic will work for all of them. That's kinda what 'similar' means.

udhq:I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends." Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move. On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to." She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways. A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation. I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.

Well, yeah; it was creepy. You stuck around her for years on end, with no real interest other than figuring out an angle to get into her pants. Of course that's creepy: you weren't a friend, you were a hunter, and you got her to tell you where she lived. You farking scared the farking bejeezus out of her, you fark.

This is why I say you should never continue to pursue someone who has said she's not interested. You scared her so badly that she started warning the people she knows. And now you're wondering why you're having trouble meeting people? You've got a reputation now, and you earned it; they're scared of you because you did something that should scare them. If you'd been honest about this from the beginning, things would have been different, but instead you did the Nice Guy thing and hung around. Short of attacking someone, that's the creepiest thing you could possibly have done. It takes years to live that down.

gulogulo:You really haven't been paying attention then. Of course, we read what confirms our own world views before we see things that may challenge it. Physically unattractive women don't get any more breaks than the physically unattractive men get. In fact, they are just as likely to get used. Think "used for sex" rather than "friend zone" in this case. And if you had been paying attention, it's not that they are unattractive that gets them labeled creepy, it's how they go about approaching a woman. I've talked to dozens of guys I didn't find attractive, only to find out that they were really awesome people and I loved to have a conversation with them. Not only that, I have seen it for more than just me. You don't want to initiate? That's fine. Not putting yourself out there, though increases the odds of you remaining lonely.

1. I admitted I didn't read the whole thread.2. Aside from me seeing a different trend in the thread, you didn't respond to anything I actually said, just changed the argument and pushed what I can only imagine is your own baggage onto me. I've made no personal assumptions about you and your behaviors, so why would you jump straight to do so about me?

ciberido:No, her didn't want to be more than friends. "More than friends" means "friends and more." What he wanted was a girlfriend whom he had no interest in being friends with. That's LESS than friends.

No.

This could literally not be more wrong.

If you think a romantic relationship is simply friendship plus sex, then I offer my sincere condolences on the hand you have been dealt in your love life.

The sound of one hand clapping:Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

I think you are misinterpreting him a little.

I've asked women out who I've maybe chatted to once or twice and got the 'I think we should just be friends' line. This tells me 2 things. They are aware that I'm asking them out because I'm attracted to them, not just because I want to talk about the latest Marvel Action Movie and they are not attracted to me.

Now, I have enough friends anyway. I already have too many that I can't hang out with them as much as I want. If I tried to start a friendship with every girl I asked out it would just get stupid. It's not that I wouldn't want to be friends with them. It's more that I only need so many friends. But I'm not going to stop asking girls out just because I can't take on anymore friends.

It's not about hating the girl for saying no. It's about being honest with them and simply saying that I'm not looking for a friendship but a relationship. If they don't want that, fair enough.

As far as I'm concerned, that kind of behavior isn't creepy, it's just honest.

Fair enough, I suppose.

But just so you know, a lot of women would never, ever date a guy who didn't want to be friends. The problem, at least in many cases, is in step 3 of this scenario.

Boy: "I want to date you, but I don't want to be friends."Girl: "I don't want to date you if you don't want to be friends. "Boy: "Ok, goodbye, then." OR "Graaaar! Girls are evil!"

gulogulo:udhq: It is not. It is a completely separate paradigm. And it is not purely sexual, as you and others keep insinuating. Sex is a single competent of the experience of a romantic relationship. I would describe the totality of that experience to be more a spiritual one than anything else, and I have genuine pity for anyone who's life experience has led them to believe otherwise.

Ok. What kind of relationship did you want to have with this woman? You didn't like talking to her, and you weren't ok with being just friends, so what then?

I don't know how many times I can say the same thing: I was interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with this women. I don't understand why that seems to be such a difficult answer?