I think its crystally clear now then that you dont know what love is, at least we know what were dealing with.

P.S I used to smoke, lots infact, but I gave up 2 and a bit years ago

I think it's painfully obvious that love and compassion always will take the backseat to the almighty selfish dollar when it comes to conservatives. And yet these are the loudest Christians. Maybe that's why they shout their religion from the rooftops--somewhere deep inside, it gnaws at them knowing they are just CINOs. Christians-in-name-only. Fucking hypocritical pieces of shit.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

You what's most interesting? I've merely stated some facts about these smoking bans. Facts like:

- no one is required to visit or patronize restaurants and bars (or most other establishments) that allow people to smoke within them.
- No one is forced to work in these establishments.

And what are the responses?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

I momentarily forgot that you are one of those GUVMENT IS ALWAYS BAD NO MATTER WHAT REGULATION DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE drones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcUK

Thats a silly, condescending and morally reprehensible argument.

Millions of people all over the world are forced by circumstances to do things they dont want to or technically dont have to, and that includes working in a smoke filled bar to feed your kids and keep a roof over their heads, and you put up with breathing in the shit because you love them.

Is it any suprise that the sociopathic anti-human viewpoint comes from the right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcUK

what part of love dont you understand?

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcUK

I think its crystally clear now then that you dont know what love is, at least we know what were dealing with.

I think it's painfully obvious that love and compassion always will take the backseat to the almighty selfish dollar when it comes to conservatives. And yet these are the loudest Christians. Maybe that's why they shout their religion from the rooftops--somewhere deep inside, it gnaws at them knowing they are just CINOs. Christians-in-name-only. Fucking hypocritical pieces of shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

And you have an empty void where a heart should be.

And more. If this is what passes for good, logical, reasoned, fact-based argumentation from you guys, I'd hate to see what emotional, irrational, illogical, mean-spirited argumentation looks like. \

You what's most interesting? I've merely stated some facts about these smoking bans. Facts like:

- no one is required to visit or patronize restaurants and bars (or most other establishments) that allow people to smoke within them.
- No one is forced to work in these establishments.

And what are the responses?

I do also find it interesting. I'm curious why you have been attacked so vigorously for your position. Fierce attacks are common here but this one seems out of proportion to the initial viewpoint.....there must be something else behind it.

I'm not sure but if I had to guess I would say perhaps it is because you can't be pigeonholed (although attempts have been made).

There's basically two enfranchised options: Left and Right. Join one and be hated by the other and line up for the stock pre-prepared abuse. But if you cannot be slotted into either or question BOTH then God help you......

And if - God forbid - you add independent thought to the mix you might as well reach for the revolver on the silver platter.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Hey segovius, based on your posts on this topic, I think you might find the link I posted from Joe Jackson to be an interesting read: "Smoke, Lies and the Nanny State"

It's very articulate, well-thought-out and well-reasoned. And some of what he says was actually rather surprising to me. He takes the argument further than I'm qualified to...arguing that the health risks are overblown and mis-stated.

Hey segovius, based on your posts on this topic, I think you might find the link I posted from Joe Jackson to be an interesting read: "Smoke, Lies and the Nanny State"

It's very articulate, well-thought-out and well-reasoned. And some of what he says was actually rather surprising to me. He takes the argument further than I'm qualified to...arguing that the health risks are overblown and mis-stated.

It is interesting. I think there is a sort of tyranny abroad that is trying to stop people having access to means of enjoyment/relaxation without effort (ie as a right).

This is an interesting book too...the author argues that actually worrying about cigarettes and health issue may possibly be more damaging than doing it.

Quote:

"At nearly every turn, pleasure has gotten a bad name," write the authors, who tell us that in pursuit of longevity Americans have become overly abstemious. Psychologist Ornstein and Sobel, director of preventive medicine at the Kaiser-Permanente HMO, believe that eradicating all of life's pleasures--whether chocolate, alcohol or even an occasional puff of tobacco--represents a far more serious threat to our well-being than whatever damage may be wreaked by occasionally indulging.

Deploring what they call "medical terrorism," they point out that some once-dire findings on health hazards have been reversed, disputed or exaggerated. The authors' secret for happiness: forget asceticism in the name of health. We should touch each other more often, learn to take life a little more lightly, partake in some form of gentle physical exercise, nap when necessary and learn to be less self-centered generally. If this advice seems a touch obvious, it may bear repeating nonetheless.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Society is replacing smoking with obesity. I know which one I'd rather be.

I smoke, as you now know. But I don't smoke around people who don't unless I'm outside, and even then I take care to not let too much smoke waft there way. Bars have always been different, there meant for adults who can choose whether to visit a certain bar or not. 2 nd hand smoke people who don't even smoke will gladly put up with sometimes if theres a good atmosphere. Loud music damages a lot of peoples hearing. I don't see people trying to stop music being played loudly. How selfish! No, so long as they have their fun they don't care that even at relatively low volume prolonged music can dramatically effect peoples hearing.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

I do also find it interesting. I'm curious why you have been attacked so vigorously for your position. Fierce attacks are common here but this one seems out of proportion to the initial viewpoint.....there must be something else behind it.

I'm not sure but if I had to guess I would say perhaps it is because you can't be pigeonholed (although attempts have been made).

There's basically two enfranchised options: Left and Right. Join one and be hated by the other and line up for the stock pre-prepared abuse. But if you cannot be slotted into either or question BOTH then God help you......

And if - God forbid - you add independent thought to the mix you might as well reach for the revolver on the silver platter.

Bingo. One thing I have always respected about you, sego, is that you tend to avoid vicious attacks. You write many things that I find bat-sh** crazy, but hey...that's what this place is for.

MJ, I would just refuse to engage them when they get like that. It seems like whenever BR and Mark (not to mention jimmac, but he's on my ignore list now) disagree with someone strongly, they throw tantrums. The best thing to do with children that throw tantrums is to make it clear that you won't deal with them when they get like that.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

I think it's painfully obvious that love and compassion always will take the backseat to the almighty selfish dollar when it comes to conservatives. And yet these are the loudest Christians. Maybe that's why they shout their religion from the rooftops--somewhere deep inside, it gnaws at them knowing they are just CINOs. Christians-in-name-only. Fucking hypocritical pieces of shit.

Maybe there is no deep inside.

Lets ask the question directly.

MJ. would you force yourself to go work in a risky and health destroying environment, if it was your only option to feed, clothe and keep a roof over your kids heads?

MJ. would you force yourself to go work in a risky and health destroying environment, if it was your only option to feed, clothe and keep a roof over your kids heads?

I've changed my position on this. I actually think you're right. It does mess with peoples health to such a degree that it's wrong. There's just no getting around that fact.

Interestingly there was a thing on the news earlier tonight here about the huge number of fires caused over Christmas time by alcohol, or better put, caused by problems people had whilst drinking alcohol that wouldn't have happened if they were sober. 6 dead and many injured. So should we ban drinking in all homes? Those fires spread to other apartments etc and put children et al at risk. Making people drink only in bars which have sober staff at hand to keep things safe surely is an ideal solution. That of course won't become law (yet) but really, why shouldn't it?

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

I've changed my position on this. I actually think you're right. It does mess with peoples health to such a degree that it's wrong. There's just no getting around that fact.

Interestingly there was a thing on the news earlier tonight here about the huge number of fires caused over Christmas time caused by alcohol, or better put, caused by problems people had whilst drinking alcohol that wouldn't have happened if they were sober. 6 dead and many injured. So should we ban drinking in all homes?

Not the same argument. But if you think banning drinking in the home because of these fires, how many more homes and lives are lost from people smoking in bed?

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

Not the same argument. But if you think banning drinking in the home because of these fires, how many more homes and lives are lost from people smoking in bed?

Exactly the same argument, actually. The last point makes me wonder if we won't go that far at some point. There are even homeowners associations that have tried to band smoking within people's own homes.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

By the way, where is all the moral outrage about a government that taxes nicotine-addicted Americans (many of whom are poor) to the hilt? Cig taxes are like 300% of the normal retail costs. If that is not regressive taxation, nothing is.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Exactly the same argument, actually. The last point makes me wonder if we won't go that far at some point. There are even homeowners associations that have tried to band smoking within people's own homes.

As to fires, it's not just smoking though, lots of other things cause these fires due to drunkenness. Should we ban stoves, candles, portable heaters etc too or just the consumption of alcohol that so often leads people to not properly pay attention? It would be hypocritical to argue not banning alcohol in peoples homes if smoking were banned in peoples homes.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

As to fires, it's not just smoking though, lots of other things cause these fires due to drunkenness. Should we ban stoves, candles, portable heaters etc too or just the consumption of alcohol that so often leads people to not properly pay attention? It would be hypocritical to argue not banning alcohol in peoples homes if smoking were banned in peoples homes.

And the wheel turns and more freedoms are squashed because people cannot be trusted to be responsible for themselves. They need a nanny state to tell them what is best.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

MJ. would you force yourself to go work in a risky and health destroying environment, if it was your only option to feed, clothe and keep a roof over your kids heads?

Not only would I...I did...in my younger days. But then I have no love...or something, so I couldn't have done such a thing...because such a thing requires selflessness and love (for my family.) Now the follow up question...Would I try to find some other environment more to my liking? Yes, I would and I did.

School children are often killed in these home fires caused by alcohol use, so why not support banning alcohol in people's homes? Fires often spread, especially in cities, so it's a very real problem. How many people have to die before it becomes illegal. All those deaths and injuries because your neighbor likes to unwind at home with a beer. Surely that's not right when he/she could go to a safe bar and then a safe hotel to sober up?

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

Is just a small example of the leading causes of deaths and injuries in homes by accidents. Which of these things would you like to see banned as well?

Quote:

MOST COMMON CAUSES OF HOME ACCIDENT DEATHS (2002 figures)

1. Poisoning by solids and liquids, gases and vapors, drugs and medicines (12,500)
The 25-44 age group had the highest death rate.
2. Falls (8,000)
4 out of 5 of them over the age of 65.
3. Suffocation - ingested object
4. Fires, burns, and deaths associated with fires
Smoke inhalation accounts for the majority of deaths in home fires.

How far does the rabbit hole go?

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

Is just a small example of the leading causes of deaths and injuries in homes by accidents. Which of these things would you like to see banned as well?

How far does the rabbit hole go?

Well fires is a biggie then. Falls there's nothing much we can do about. I bet a lot of the deaths in no1 are medicines. Perhaps people should be required to keep medicines and household cleaners etc locked in a box, by law. That might not be bad idea and isnt such a terrible inconvenience when you think about what's at stake.

"We recommend parents and caregivers eliminate hidden household poisons. Storing household cleaners, medicines and vitamins locked away and out of reach is a smart and simple safety intervention that could save a child's life."
~ http://www.tampagov.net/dept_fire_re...lts/poison.asp

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

I bet if "we" eliminated stairs that would help reduce the number of falls. Then ladders or anything else someone could step up on. After that eliminating standing up for the older population.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands Sandon

Perhaps people should be required to keep medicines and household cleaners etc locked in a box, by law.

Yes, and nightly "Locked Up Medicines Police Checks" could be performed by the newly created Department of Medicine Security. Or maybe people violating this law will just need to be snitched on by family or "friends" prompting fully armed SWAT team breaches into the violator's home.

I bet if "we" eliminated stairs that would help reduce the number of falls. Then ladders or anything else someone could step up on. After that eliminating standing up for the older population.

Yes, and nightly "Locked Up Medicines Police Checks" could be performed by the newly created Department of Medicine Security. Or maybe people violating this law will just need to be snitched on by family or "friends" prompting fully armed SWAT team breaches into the violator's home.

I agree with you on things from time to time, but you're being typically extreme here. Maybe if parents where held criminally negligent if their offspring died, that might get people to invest in a box with a lock on it or two.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

I agree wig you on things from time to time, but your being typically extreme here.

Yeah...I know. \

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands Sandon

Maybe if parents where held criminally negligent if their offspring died, that might get people to invest in a box with a lock on it or two.

Actually, I think that could happen anyway. No need for an extra, difficult to police and enforce law. Parental negligence can be prosecuted. But the law (as it should) works within the boundaries of reasonableness (most of the time). So when the killing stuff is kept way out of reach of the kids and very difficult for them to get to, but their curiosity, persistence and creativity enables them to get to it anyway (despite not being under lock and key by law)...what is already an accidental tragedy (kid dying from eating the Drano) isn't compounded by assuming the parents are negligent assholes. On the other hand, for dumbshit Mom and Dad who leave a pile of coke on the coffee table and a crack pipe around...well then negligence can probably be prosecuted.

The bigger question here is whether there's an epidemic of kids dying because they're getting into the medicine cabinet, that I haven't heard about. I'm not saying it doesn't happen...but I doubt it is a serious, epidemic problem. Want to know why? Most parents actually love and care for their kids and do the very best they can to care for and protect them.

Not only would I...I did...in my younger days. But then I have no love...or something, so I couldn't have done such a thing...because such a thing requires selflessness and love (for my family.) Now the follow up question...Would I try to find some other environment more to my liking? Yes, I would and I did.

Yes, but thank God you were lucky and able enough to dig yourself out of that hole. Not everyone is lucky or able enough to be able to do that. You need to remember that before you have the knee-jerk Government intervention is bad. Not everyone is lucky enough or able. Not everyone.

I worked in a bar on a weekends, for fun really, but it was hellish smokey, bearing in mind I used to smoke at the time. I used to have to wash my eyes out a couple of times a shift, because they wouldn't stop stinging and running. I chose that for fun, knowing I could quit whenever, but not everyone could do that. Some people are forced by circumstance.

Well fires is a biggie then. Falls there's nothing much we can do about. I bet a lot of the deaths in no1 are medicines. Perhaps people should be required to keep medicines and household cleaners etc locked in a box, by law. That might not be bad idea and isnt such a terrible inconvenience when you think about what's at stake.

Eliminate and regulate bathtubs and showers (falls in those are a huge cause of injury and death). Stairs, uneven or split level homes, roller skates, skate boards, and other toys being left around the home on the floor should be required to be kept in a toy box with a proper lid... Shall we legislate this? How far do we go here?

Quote:

"We recommend parents and caregivers eliminate hidden household poisons. Storing household cleaners, medicines and vitamins locked away and out of reach is a smart and simple safety intervention that could save a child's life."
~ http://www.tampagov.net/dept_fire_re...lts/poison.asp

A recommendation is not the same as the force of law. I have no issue with recommendations or education campaigns.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

A Buddhist monk is likely to face five years in prison for violating strict anti-smoking laws in the tiny Himalayan nation of Bhutan.
Police have not named the monk but said he is 24 years old and was caught with 72 packets of chewing tobacco.
Bhutan says it is determined to become the world's first smoking-free nation. It banned the sale of tobacco in 2005.

I think that this a bit extreme.

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

Building on existing legislation, the Council Wednesday voted 36 -12 to bring the citys ban on smoking in bars and restaurants to public parks and beaches. The new law, which would impose a $50 fine on anyone caught smoking in a park, beach or even Times Square will also help to cut down on litter, proponents said.
With this bill, all New Yorkers can now breathe easier and breathe cleaner air, said City Council Speaker Christine C. Quinn. No one should have to inhale deadly cigarette smoke when they go to a park or beach....

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey