Still attacking the messenger eh, not very rational imho.The WHO changed the definition of 'Pandemic' to drop the mortality requirement for such a declaration, why is that?Why haven't they declared a pandemic for each of the yearly flu viruses since this change in 2003? They fall under such a definition, so why single out the H1N1 variant?

To pre-answer a couple answers to these: We can *not* accurately project the mortality in theory of a "wild" strain, we thus cannot state with this amount of certainty that said strain is worthy of the old pandemic definition.

Another odd thing to note, are you so sure all these 'reports' of H1N1 have been accurately screened and not passed off as regular flu symptoms?

Know, O man, that Light is thine heritage. Know that darkness is only a veil. Sealed in thine heart is brightness eternal, waiting the moment of freedom to conquer, waiting to rend the veil of the night. --Thoth

Niocan wrote:Still attacking the messenger eh, not very rational imho.The WHO changed the definition of 'Pandemic' to drop the mortality requirement for such a declaration, why is that?Why haven't they declared a pandemic for each of the yearly flu viruses since this change in 2003? They fall under such a definition, so why single out the H1N1 variant?

To pre-answer a couple answers to these: We can *not* accurately project the mortality in theory of a "wild" strain, we thus cannot state with this amount of certainty that said strain is worthy of the old pandemic definition.

Another odd thing to note, are you so sure all these 'reports' of H1N1 have been accurately screened and not passed off as regular flu symptoms?

ImprobableJoe wrote:I'm still waiting for me, my wife, or anyone we know to die from the H1N1 vaccine. Hell, I'm still waiting for the dozens of shots I've had over the years to kill me. I have gotten the flu vaccine almost every year since 1992, I had the full spectrum of vaccines for military service... twice!

I guess I should also have brain cancer from my cell phone, another cancer from artificial sweetener, and all sorts of bad stuff from "toxins." As long as we're talking about the complete stupidity of the anti-vax position, we might as throw in a couple of other bogus medical myths.

Oh which shot did you get? Since we're debating here the "good one" and the "bad one" Our government is stupid, stupid, stupid. Ordering one vaccine for the "commoners" and another one for high government officials and the military HAS to make people think they are treated second class. The average citizen won't understand the different principles of the vaccines and realise that both have their advantages and disadvantages.And I'm totally sure that the outcry would have been the same if the vaccines were swapped.

But what I still don't like is that the vaccines are nit thoroughly tested (can hardly be) and that the companies are excused from any liability . Smells fishy.I'm going to take a pretty amoral way: I'll way a few weeks to see whether there are serious side-effects and then have my family vaccinated. Yes, I use all the other ones as guniea pigs, but, well I'll live with it.

Go to heaven, we don't want you in hell with us!Most people don't object to discrimination and oppression as such, they only object to being at the receiving end

Giliell wrote:Oh which shot did you get? Since we're debating here the "good one" and the "bad one" Our government is stupid, stupid, stupid. Ordering one vaccine for the "commoners" and another one for high government officials and the military HAS to make people think they are treated second class. The average citizen won't understand the different principles of the vaccines and realise that both have their advantages and disadvantages.And I'm totally sure that the outcry would have been the same if the vaccines were swapped.

But what I still don't like is that the vaccines are nit thoroughly tested (can hardly be) and that the companies are excused from any liability . Smells fishy.I'm going to take a pretty amoral way: I'll way a few weeks to see whether there are serious side-effects and then have my family vaccinated. Yes, I use all the other ones as guniea pigs, but, well I'll live with it.

What do you mean "not thoroughly tested"? They do this every year. The technique doesn't magically become different if it is for the H1N1. They aren't reinventing the wheel here. There's no rational reason to assume there's going to be any higher risk of side effects.

I don't even know what you mean by "good" or "bad" shot. I got the one I got, plus the seasonal one... and I'm not dead.

ImprobableJoe wrote:What do you mean "not thoroughly tested"? They do this every year. The technique doesn't magically become different if it is for the H1N1. They aren't reinventing the wheel here. There's no rational reason to assume there's going to be any higher risk of side effects.

I don't even know what you mean by "good" or "bad" shot. I got the one I got, plus the seasonal one... and I'm not dead.

Ehm, no, they don't do this every year. The vaccines, both of them, are different from the usual flu-shots. They are even very different compared to each other. And they are not thoroughly tested, that's why the companies are excused from liability.

The "good" one and the "bad" one are those German government gets and ordinary people get. I don't think that either is the good or the bad one. The one normal people get, Pandermix by GlaxoSmithKline consists of broken down parts of the shell and a lot of "strengtheners" which are under attack because they might be risky. They are also produced in chicken eggs which may make them dangerous for people with allergies . The other one (forgot name and company) consists of whole "dead" viruses which are always risky.

But you must admit that "I'm not dead" is no rational argument for anything. I had the measles and I'm not dead. A lot of people have had the swine flu so far and they're not dead. That doesn't mean those things are harmeless.

Go to heaven, we don't want you in hell with us!Most people don't object to discrimination and oppression as such, they only object to being at the receiving end

ImprobableJoe wrote:What do you mean "not thoroughly tested"? They do this every year. The technique doesn't magically become different if it is for the H1N1. They aren't reinventing the wheel here. There's no rational reason to assume there's going to be any higher risk of side effects.

I don't even know what you mean by "good" or "bad" shot. I got the one I got, plus the seasonal one... and I'm not dead.

Ehm, no, they don't do this every year. The vaccines, both of them, are different from the usual flu-shots. They are even very different compared to each other. And they are not thoroughly tested, that's why the companies are excused from liability.

How are they different, because the information I've read/seen says that they use the exact same procedure as with normal seasonal flu, the only difference is the virus.

The "good" one and the "bad" one are those German government gets and ordinary people get.

Proof? I've seen you post reasonable arguments in other threads, so I won't call you a conspiracy theorist just yet, but this smells like tinfoil hat country.

But you must admit that "I'm not dead" is no rational argument for anything. I had the measles and I'm not dead. A lot of people have had the swine flu so far and they're not dead. That doesn't mean those things are harmeless.

Governments are not plotting to kill their own citizens. At least not on this part of the globe.

Giliell wrote:The "good" one and the "bad" one are those German government gets and ordinary people get.

Proof? I've seen you post reasonable arguments in other threads, so I won't call you a conspiracy theorist just yet, but this smells like tinfoil hat country.

I gotta say something, because I respect Gil a lot. I think you simply misunderheard her. She wasn't drawing a distinction in the effectiveness of the vaccines. She was pointing out the difference in the methods used to make the vaccines, and how people saw it as a difference in the efficiacy of the two. Giliell is NOT a conspiracy theorist , you just misinterpreted her. I think...

"To give pleasure to a single heart by a single kind act is better than a thousand head-bowings in prayer."-Saddi

@stratosInverted commas usually mean that something isn't to be taken totally literally. If you'd read on instead of jumping out at me, you'd also have read the following:

myself wrote:The "good" one and the "bad" one are those German government gets and ordinary people get. I don't think that either is the good or the bad one.

Oh, and the next chapter in the everlasting comedy/tragedy in Germany: We've ordered 50 million dosages of vaccine. Early. Now people want to get vaccinated and guess what? Not enough vaccine.The company excuses their difficulties, and here's the best part, let's see if you find it as funny as I do: They cannot produce the promised amount of vaccine due to having to optimize the production process so they can produce enough vaccine.

I wished they were at least liable for the financial damage they're causing the appointed vaccination GPs

Go to heaven, we don't want you in hell with us!Most people don't object to discrimination and oppression as such, they only object to being at the receiving end

Giliell wrote:Oh, and the next chapter in the everlasting comedy/tragedy in Germany: We've ordered 50 million dosages of vaccine. Early. Now people want to get vaccinated and guess what? Not enough vaccine.The company excuses their difficulties, and here's the best part, let's see if you find it as funny as I do: They cannot produce the promised amount of vaccine due to having to optimize the production process so they can produce enough vaccine.

What??*

is this a government-run company, or is it a private company?

"To give pleasure to a single heart by a single kind act is better than a thousand head-bowings in prayer."-Saddi

TheFearmonger wrote:That kinda sucks for you guys... can your gov't start making some of the vaccines? I mean, surely they can get some chicken eggs and the stuff they need to make it. Especially with lives at stake.

Getting some chicken eggs is one of the hardest steps. Each dose of the vaccine needs two eggs to be used. In order for the government to make another 50 million units of the vaccine they would have to find 100,000,000 eggs. That's a lot of laying.

Let's declare the egg-free week and donate them for making the vaccine.But as usually with the "free market", lives are less important than copyright and company profits.Did I mention that they get 150 millions of tax monney a year for doing the reasearch?

Go to heaven, we don't want you in hell with us!Most people don't object to discrimination and oppression as such, they only object to being at the receiving end

You should remember at all times, that the vaccine is not a product of Science, it's a product of a company.

Know, O man, that Light is thine heritage. Know that darkness is only a veil. Sealed in thine heart is brightness eternal, waiting the moment of freedom to conquer, waiting to rend the veil of the night. --Thoth