I have 2 kids, and the thing that grates on me, is how unfair it is on the CHILD. Children are not just learning to behave - they are forming their self-concept. They do not know what they need, they do not know their limits, and they do not know how to manage themselves.

If you constantly set them up for failure by putting them in situations where they are exhausted, overstimulated, or developmentally incapable of behaving appropriately, then you are teaching them that they are failures, people don't like them or want them around, and they are the source of constant frustration/embarassment to their parents. And then they will live "down" to the expectations they were set. So, so, unfair and cruel.

I think regular, small doses of selected "grownup" venues can be great for teaching and motivating kids to appreciate manners, culture, and the wider world. But it is the parents' job to meet the child's needs for rest, physical activity, food, and attention span - so that it is a pleasant experience for the family, and for the people around them. I often tell my girls, "I am so proud of you, I can take you anywhere!" But I don't. I take them to places where I have planned my resources, my time, and my exit strategy.

I get so sad to see kids misbehaving and melting down in inappropriate places/times - because I see a kid whose needs are being ignored.

EllenS makes a very good point about it being unfair to the kids to take them to adult focused activities. I was a late in life child. All of my parents friends and my siblings were older. There were times my parents were asked to a social event (dinner out or over to friends) and my mom would turn down the invite because of lack of sitter and the hosts to insist that I be brought along. While most times it was fine and even fun, there were other times that it was apparent to me that stories/jokes were edited or evenings ending earlier because of my presence. And it made me uncomfortable knowing this. Or I'd end up in a master bedroom trying to find something to watch on TV. Or end up sitting nicely and politely at the restaurant table for 2 hours mostly listening to conversations which bored me silly.

My DH and I followed the rule that if having our kids join an event would change the behavior of other guests, then they didnt need to be there.

But if your tot's squalling at top volume at a wedding or a funeral and you're not taking them out? Blurgh. You're terrible. It's 9pm and your kid's screaming in an art museum? Also terrible. Freaking out in a r-rated movie? Ruining everyone's night out in a posh restaurant at a time when kids ought to be in bed? Ugggggh.

The annoyances you are describing are more about behavior than age and adults can misbehave too. And frankly, I think those behaviors you list are more about bad parenting than they are about misbehaving children.

I think there are places that children shouldn't be taken, but those places are very few. Mostly, I think that if a child can behave himself in a given setting and behave just like the adults, he should be welcomed. Movies, restaurants, weddings, funerals, museums are all places I would expect to see kids, but I would also expect them to be behaving.

Any place with age requirements (e.g. bars, nightclubs, rated R or M movies, nude beach, etc)

Any place with height requirements (e.g. the sooper-dooper awesome rollercoaster that has a minimum height of 48")

The opposite gender bathroom or change room. If you have to go into the bathroom or change room with your kids, you need to use the family rest room or the family change room (YMMV, this is my opinion)

Any place that the kid is not able to handle the mental or physical requirements necessary (e.g. backcountry backpacking, on a boat if they can't swim, at a gala art opening if they don't have an appreciation of art)

Any place where "kids being kids" will prevent others around them from fully participating in/appreciating the place/event (e.g. an evening at the opera)

Any place where an invitation is required, and they have not been invited (e.g. weddings, cocktail parties)

I just don't feel that the entire world needs to be "kid friendly" and I think that it is fine that there are places where kids can't or shouldn't go.

OP, your friends are in full-on mommy/daddy pride mode, it seems, and not the good kind where they just love their babies to death and see them as the best things ever. No, this is the kind of attitude that comes when someone decides that their child/ren is/are the center of the universe, and if you can't bow to that, then you are a child-hater.

There are places we all expect to see children. In Target, for example. If I had kids, I wouldn't think twice about taking them there. Of course, I would expect them to behave by not slamming full-speed into the rear end of another shopper, like a kid did to me yesterday (supervising adults nowhere in sight).

I once listened to a mom lose her MIND on this poor counter girl at a vineyard we were visiting. She wanted to take her baby on the winery tour (??) and they wouldn't sell her a ticket/allow the kid to go. They explained that it was a working winery, insurance issues, etc, and the lady flat-out would not listen. She argued right up until the tour left without her.

There is a lot of debate and some uproar over a few recent restaurants that have opened and declared themselves to be 18 (or 21) and up, only. And yet no one is freaking out about how you can't go to Legoland WITHOUT a kid in tow.

The idea that some places are more well-suited to adults, no children, is quite logical.

But if your tot's squalling at top volume at a wedding or a funeral and you're not taking them out? Blurgh. You're terrible. It's 9pm and your kid's screaming in an art museum? Also terrible. Freaking out in a r-rated movie? Ruining everyone's night out in a posh restaurant at a time when kids ought to be in bed? Ugggggh.

The annoyances you are describing are more about behavior than age and adults can misbehave too. And frankly, I think those behaviors you list are more about bad parenting than they are about misbehaving children.

I think there are places that children shouldn't be taken, but those places are very few. Mostly, I think that if a child can behave himself in a given setting and behave just like the adults, he should be welcomed. Movies, restaurants, weddings, funerals, museums are all places I would expect to see kids, but I would also expect them to be behaving.

POD. I was perfectly able to watch a full length Disney movie at the age of 3, and also sit through a church service at that age (provided that I had something to do during the sermon), partly because I was an incredibly good child, but also in part because my parents were good parents and taught me and Cabbage how to act. OP, you're not a grump; I'd be irritated as all get out to experience stuff like that.

ETA: MindsEye, I've only ever seen family bathrooms in big city airports, and my (relatively) small town certainly doesn't have them. It's NBD to me to see a mother take her son or a father his daughter into the opposite gender bathroom.

Logged

"It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends" - Harry Potter

Any place with age requirements (e.g. bars, nightclubs, rated R or M movies, nude beach, etc)

Any place with height requirements (e.g. the sooper-dooper awesome rollercoaster that has a minimum height of 48")

The opposite gender bathroom or change room. If you have to go into the bathroom or change room with your kids, you need to use the family rest room or the family change room (YMMV, this is my opinion)

Any place that the kid is not able to handle the mental or physical requirements necessary (e.g. backcountry backpacking, on a boat if they can't swim, at a gala art opening if they don't have an appreciation of art)

Any place where "kids being kids" will prevent others around them from fully participating in/appreciating the place/event (e.g. an evening at the opera)

Any place where an invitation is required, and they have not been invited (e.g. weddings, cocktail parties)

I just don't feel that the entire world needs to be "kid friendly" and I think that it is fine that there are places where kids can't or shouldn't go.

I guess that I am a grump too!

Regarding R-rated movies, there is no age requirement if accompanied by an adult. That said, I still don't think young children should be in an R-rated movie if they are misbehaving/crying/etc..

As for opposite-gender bathrooms, I am in complete disagreement with you. Believe me, I would love to take my daughters into a private family bathroom instead of the men's room, but these are few and far between. What should I do when there is no family bathroom? Let them go in their pants, or maybe I just shouldn't be allowed out in public with my daughters unless their mother is present?

You have very unusual FB friends. I know no one who will defend their child screaming in an art museum, or at a wedding or funeral. You can see the replies here are unanimous.

I think often it comes down to the definition of "screaming".

I went to a wedding recently, that was primarily adults (children who were close family of the couple were invited) and quite formal. Well a couple I'm friends with brought their toddler (the bride agreed ahead of time this was ok... although I believe she did so under duress as I was there when it happened). I sat at the same table as the couple with the toddler.

During the speeches part of the reception the room was almost totally silent, save for an odd murmur here and there, as we all listened. And twice the toddler let out a very loud yelp of sorts. It wasn't a full on tantrum by any means, it was only a few seconds long. But it happened twice. And it was distracting and IMO disrespectful as the toddler had not been invited, was significantly younger then any of the children who were invited (7 years was the next youngest guest, an officially invited), and they were very touching speeches that deserved respect and attention, not distraction.

I didn't specifically bring it up to the parents so they didn't defend it specifically, but they also didn't after the first one immediately remove themselves from the room thus preventing the second interruption... so to me their actions as parents absolutely defended the noise.

Any place with age requirements (e.g. bars, nightclubs, rated R or M movies, nude beach, etc)

Any place with height requirements (e.g. the sooper-dooper awesome rollercoaster that has a minimum height of 48")

The opposite gender bathroom or change room. If you have to go into the bathroom or change room with your kids, you need to use the family rest room or the family change room (YMMV, this is my opinion)

Any place that the kid is not able to handle the mental or physical requirements necessary (e.g. backcountry backpacking, on a boat if they can't swim, at a gala art opening if they don't have an appreciation of art)

Any place where "kids being kids" will prevent others around them from fully participating in/appreciating the place/event (e.g. an evening at the opera)

Any place where an invitation is required, and they have not been invited (e.g. weddings, cocktail parties)

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I just don't feel that the entire world needs to be "kid friendly" and I think that it is fine that there are places where kids can't or shouldn't go.

I guess that I am a grump too!

The bolded would apply to adults too, though. We really need to separate the behavior from the mere presence of a minor. Adult who can't swim don't belong a boat either. Uninvited adults don't belong at a wedding. Adults that don't meet the height requirement don't belong on a ride.

There is a lot of debate and some uproar over a few recent restaurants that have opened and declared themselves to be 18 (or 21) and up, only. And yet no one is freaking out about how you can't go to Legoland WITHOUT a kid in tow.

The idea that some places are more well-suited to adults, no children, is quite logical.