As Seen in Vanity Fair's August 2006 Issue!
As Seen in US News & World Report's September 11 Fifth Anniversary Issue!
As Seen in Time Magazine's September 11, 2006 Issue!
As Seen in Phoenix New Times' August 9, 2007 Issue!

Thursday, April 22, 2010

Grifter Responds

A group called the Institute for Religion and Democracy put out a press release noting that David Ray Griffin will once again be using church facilities to spread his conspiracy nonsense:

A professor from a United Methodist seminary who argued that the World Trade Center and Pentagon were actually attacked on September 11, 2001 by the Bush Administration is back with another outrageous book.

David Ray Griffin, author of “Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11”, is releasing a ninth book on the attacks, this time alleging that the Obama administration is attempting to undermine 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Griffin’s earlier work was published by Westminster John Knox Press, the official publishing house of the Presbyterian Church (USA), a move that sparked controversy in the denomination. Starting April 23, Griffin is also launching a 15-city lecture tour questioning the justification for the war in Afghanistan. The tour will feature stops at Presbyterian and United Methodist Churches, as well as schools such as Iowa’s Drake University.

Already at that time, however, my 9/11 books had also been endorsed by professors of economics, history, philosophy, and international law, as well as by former members of the Reagan and George H. W. Bush administrations, including the CIA, and by a member of the British Parliament (as anyone can see by looking at the "editorial reviews" on Amazon.com). My more recent books have been endorsed by a member of the Japanese Senate, a former US governor, by 9/11 widows (including members of the "Jersey Girls," who were instrumental in getting the 9/11 Commission established), by engineers (including Jack Keller, who has been given special recognition by Scientific American), and by several natural scientists (one of whom was awarded the National Medal of Science24). Does IRD believe that such people endorse silly books?

I can't speak for the IRD, but I certainly believe that those people endorse silly books. Jesse Ventura is the "former US governor", and he's a total fruitcake. I assume that Fujita is the member of the Japanese Senate. The Washington Post recently described Fujita's beliefs as "too bizarre, half-baked and intellectually bogus to merit serious discussion." The Jersey Girls? At least two of them (Lorie Van Auken and Patty Casazza) are crackpots, and I've got my suspicions about Mindy Kleinberg as well. Jack Keller? As usual with the academics among the troofers, his professorship is "Emeritus", and his engineering background? According to Patriots Question 9-11, he's an agricultural and irrigation engineer. Too bad the title "Waterboy" is already taken. The natural scientist is Lynn Margulis, an eminently silly woman.

Note as well, that Grifter tries to have it both ways. When somebody from the government opposes his theories, they're "from the government":

NIST's reports are no better. This is not surprising, because NIST is an agency of the Commerce Department.

But when they agree with him, suddenly this is evidence that he's credible:

Already at that time, however, my 9/11 books had also been endorsed by professors of economics, history, philosophy, and international law, as well as by former members of the Reagan and George H. W. Bush administrations...

Read it for yourself; it's the usual whining about how the government's own theory is a conspiracy theory, the planes should have been intercepted in ten minutes, Barbara Olsen's phone calls, etc.

"If there is indeed a God... I bet he/she/it thinks DRG is an asshole."

Imagine an afterlife where God tells Griffin what all sane people already know, that his theories are crackpot. That would be funny, although he'd no doubt disbelieve the Almighty & continue whining about the military industrial complex and timeline discrepancies.

Only the ludicrous Debunker Cult headed up by two of the silliest saps the internet has ever birthed and distinguished by some of the most idiotic nutcases commenting insanely,could go around calling eminent scientists and other solid citizens insulting names.You people are more than fucked up,you're insane.

''So, who is Eddie Shalev? His identity remained unknown for more than seven years, but was finally revealed in one of the files released in January 2009 by the National Archives. The document, labelled a “Memorandum for the Record,” is a summary of the April 2004 interview with Eddie Shalev conducted by commission staffer Quinn John Tamm.[32] The document confirms that Shalev went on record: “Mr Shalev stated that based on his observations Hanjour was a ‘good’ pilot.” It is noteworthy that Tamm also spoke with Freeway instructors Sheri Baxter and Ben Conner, as revealed by yet another recently-released document.[33] Although I was unable to reach Tamm or Baxter for comment, I did talk with Conner, who confirmed the conversation.[34] Conner says he fully expected to testify before the commission. Perhaps not surprisingly, the call never came.

But the shocker is the revelation that Eddie Shalev is an Israeli and served in the Israeli army. The file states that “Mr. Shalev served in the Israeli Defense Forces in a paratroop regiment. He was a jumpmaster on a Boeing C-130. Mr. Shalev moved to the Gaithersburg area in April 2001 and was sponsored for employment by Congressional Air Charters...[which] has subsequently gone out of business.”

Sorry, you didn't explain who Eddie Shalev is. All you say is that he is Israeli. If he's Israeli then it is no shock to learn that he was in the Israeli military. That would be pretty much par for the course if he were Israeli.

'israels malfeasance is quite well documented, from Dancing Israelis,'

Liar:

http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html

'genocide in palestine,'

Genocide is defined as 'acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group':

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

According to World Bank figures the population for the West Bank and Gaza rose from 2 to just under 4 million between 1990 and 2008. Genocides tend as a rule of thumb to involve significant demographic decreases - rather than increases - in the population targeted.

The only 'source' for this is the embellished memoirs of Victor Ostrovsky, who served a mere 14 months in the Mossad (most of it as a trainee). In fact, Operation El Dorado Canyon was authorised after the NSA intercepted Libyan communications traffic proving that Gaddafi's Mukhabarat was complicit in the bombing of the La Belle nightclub in West Berlin on 5th April 1986 (see Christopher Andrew, 'For the President's Eyes Only' (London: HarperCollins 1995), p.483; & Timothy Naftali, 'Blind Spot. The Secret History of American Counterterrorism', (NY: Basic Books 2005), p.185).

So that's a third lie.

'to the lockerbie bombing'

Of all the conspiracy theories surrounding Lockerbie, not one even mentions Israel amongst the alternative culprits. So you're not just content with recycling old lies, you want to make up some for yourself.

And I presume that as a qualified pilot with many years as a professional flyer behind him, the Grand Wizard's personal catamite can refute this expert witness about the flying skills needed by the 9/11 hijackers:

'The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards. (1)

Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming "middle-eastern" men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. (2)

"They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness. (3)[T]hey were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. (4)

Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact (5). Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot. (6)

'Sorry, you didn't explain who Eddie Shalev is. All you say is that he is Israeli. If he's Israeli then it is no shock to learn that he was in the Israeli military. That would be pretty much par for the course if he were Israeli.'

do some research...ever hear of that idea? He certified hani hanjour, when Marcel Bernards school didnt...now why would an israeli certify a dodgy arab?

The 9/11 Commission that you frantically defend no matter how inadequate it is wouldn't even exist if not for people like Lorie Van Auken, or Patty Casazza. Pat, you are the scum of the Earth. I don't know how you sleep at night.

'The only 'source' for this is the embellished memoirs of Victor Ostrovsky, who served a mere 14 months in the Mossad (most of it as a trainee). In fact, Operation El Dorado Canyon was authorised after the NSA intercepted Libyan communications traffic proving that Gaddafi's Mukhabarat was complicit in the bombing of the La Belle nightclub in West Berlin on 5th April 1986'=================

only libya never did...The israelis used their now infamous trojan device. AS Ostrovsky tells us.

'Of all the conspiracy theories surrounding Lockerbie, not one even mentions Israel amongst the alternative culprits. So you're not just content with recycling old lies, you want to make up some for yourself.'

how did an explosive device get onto Lockbie plane?

Thru the agency of the israels Yeffet:

'Another astonishing factor was that the Crown (the prosecutors) ignored evidence of a break-in of the Pan Am luggage area at Heathrow early in the morning of that fatal December day. One wonders whether Pan Am had been alerted to security problems at Heathrow by Isaac Yeffet, the former head of security at Israel’s Ben-Gurion Airport, where security is airtight. In an article in the March 1989 issue of the now-defunct Life magazine entitled “The Next Bomb,” Edward Barnes wrote, “in 1986 Yeffet was part of a team commissioned by Pan Am to survey 25 of its branches around the world…Yeffet now runs a security consulting business in New Jersey'

'6 An upper management official at LAX has reported that he overheard members of LAX Security (including officers from the FBI and LAPD) using their walkie-talkies shortly after the attacks. In some cases, he could hear both sides of the conversation. At first, the LAX officials were told that the FAA’s Air Traffic Controllers had not notified NORAD about the hijackings. Later, however, they were told that NORAD had been notified but did not respond because it had been “ordered to stand down.” When LAX security officials asked who had issued that order, they were told that it had come “from the highest level of the White House” (“My Observation of LAX Security Events on 9/11,” by an Upper Management LAX Official [attached]; although this official wants to remain anonymous, he would willingly take a polygraph test).'

'More chatter revealed that the ATCs had notified NORAD, but that NORAD had not responded because it had been “ordered to stand down.” This report made Security even more upset, so they tried to find out who had issued that order. A short time later the word came down that the order had come “from the highest level of the White House.” This seemed inappropriate, so Security made attempts for more details and clarification, which was not resolved in my presence.

3 planes were grounded and swapped out in Atlanta, Georgia, simply because they did not pass the routine pre-flight inspection checklist. Those planes were found to be fully loaded with automatic weapons. LAX Security surmised that could only have been accomplished by Maintenance, the Caterers, but, in their view, most likely by “House Keeping.”

LAX Security believed that the terrorists did not board the planes through the passenger terminals, but rather by similar means, i.e. via House Keeping. Other airports were mentioned, but I was unable to get it all down. Therefore, I don’t have an accurate accounting for the status and location of the other planes.

Another piece of information that I overheard was that the Pentagon had been hit by a rocket.

There was also a radio station identifying itself as LAX Radio, from which the following was heard:

There were 11 planes and 11 targets. But at the time only 10 of the targets were mentioned: the WTC; the Pentagon; the White House; the Capitol; Camp David; the Sears Tower; the Space Needle; the Trans America Bldg.; LAX; and Air Force One--“if it could be found.”

Two fighter jets had been scrambled and had successfully shot down a hijacked airliner over Pennsylvania. The point of deployment of the fighter jets was also mentioned, but I can’t remember the name of the military base.

Points of origin mentioned included Newark, Atlanta, and other locations, but it was confusing to me in that I couldn’t determine if they were with respect to hijacked planes or fighter jets being scrambled. Unfortunately the names of these airports were not all familiar to me or it would have been easier for me to account for them.

As I was leaving there was an order to evacuate the airport.

In 2001 and 2002 I tried to notify the media of the events at LAX, but they made it clear they were not interested.'=====================

'Maria, who asked us not to use her last name, had a view of the World Trade Center from her New Jersey apartment building. She remembers a neighbor calling her shortly after the first plane hit the towers.She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye.

Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.

The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.'

So the only witness sees three, not five, people filming what happened. No reference to any celebratory behaviour on their part. And that's all, folks.

Incidentally, who did celebrate when the towers collapsed (other than al-Qaeda, of course)?:

I see you've also dropped the Lockerbie claim as well, without admitting it was BS from the start.

Finally, if you want to know what I think of the Israel-Palestine issue, I support peace based upon a two-state solution. The fact that wankers like you are opposed to this means I'm on the right side.

'FBI agents have questioned and administered a lie detector test to one of Hanjour's instructors in Arizona who was an Arab American and had signed off on Hanjour's flight instruction credentials before he got his pilot's license.'

So it was an Arab-American, not an Israeli, who got him certified. Not that this actually matters a fuck to anyone who's not a bigoted piece of shit like you.

Anonymous: they enjoyed the sight of the towers burning, people screaming...

So did you but no one thinks you were responsible.------------------So if they were laughkng and cheering, that indicates they are not your random tourist, but were gthere that day as part of the 9-11 operation. A real Investigation will reveal what that was.

'The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture. (12)'http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

'On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, (202) 324-3000, to learn why Bin Laden’s Most Wanted poster did not indicate that Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11. The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

Surprised by the ease in which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How this was possible?” Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” I asked, “How does that work?” Tomb continued, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice than decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connected Bin Laden to 9/11.” http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13664.htm

I didn't say that. But some Palestinians and Saddam Hussein's government certainly celebrated it.

'but this guy did:'

Oh right, so a nut-job proves his case by linking to a nut-job website. Nicely done. I was impressed with the stuff about 'Climategate' BTW. Not mental at all.

'no ive not dropped it,..that israel is the most likely contender...'

Evidence would be nice.

'as it has a history of false flags...'

It has a history of one - tha Lavon Affair. And that's it.

'the very same israel attacked a US ship: the Liberty in 1967.'

That happened to take place during something historians called the Six Day War. The Liberty was identified (wrongly) as an Egyptian vessel before it was bombed. Another lie to compound the rest.

Incidentally, I can't help noticing that kooks like yourself keep raving about the Liberty, but you're not interested in uncovering the 'truth' about similar incidents in which USN vessels have been attacked in similar circumstances. Where are all the 'activists' looking to uncover the truth about the Exocet strike on the USS Stark in 1987?

'But then sayanim at AIPAC have learned how to control US goyim congress persons...just say: 'do as we want or no more money'.'

Learn to read, arsehole. I said in my post that 'some Palestinians' and the Iraqi government celebrated 9/11.

'Saddam...thatd be the former client of the US govt, whose country the US first armed against Iran(while also arming iran), then attacked and murdered iraqis....'

Funnily enough, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) - in their survey 'Arms Transfers to Iraq, 1981-2001' - states that between 1973 and 2002, 57% of Iraq's arms came from the USSR/Russia, 13% from France, and 12% from China. US assistance was 0.5%.

Wow, you're not doing very well on this site, are you? Is it because you can't write your answers in crayon here?

'Incidentally, I can't help noticing that kooks like yourself keep raving about the Liberty, but you're not interested in uncovering the 'truth' about similar incidents in which USN vessels have been attacked in similar circumstances. Where are all the 'activists' looking to uncover the truth about the Exocet strike on the USS Stark in 1987?'

'Can you explain exactly how you would actually, you know, attack an enemy ship in wartime WITHOUT the intention of "sinking the vessel with all hands"?

That'd be quite a trick.'

ask the men of the Liberty, laz

http://www.gtr5.com/

'The Cover UpDespite a near-universal consensus that the Israeli attack was made with full knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship, the Johnson administration began an immediate cover-up of this fact. Though administration officers continued individually to characterize the attack as deliberate, the Johnson administration never sought the prosecution of the guilty parties or otherwise attempted to seek justice for the victims. They concealed and altered evidence in their effort to downplay the attack. Though they never formally accepted the Israeli explanation that it was an accident, they never pressed for a full investigation either. They simply allowed those responsible literally to get away with murder.

In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed'

Incidentally, if anyone actually wants to read the truth about the USS Liberty, they could always consult A. Jay Cristol's 'The Liberty Incident' (NY: Brassey's 2002). Cristol has actually done something which we in the reality-based community call 'research'.

As for the 'Liberty' survivors themselves, I can understand their feelings, but the harsh fact is that their unarmed ship was needlessly sent into a warzone by their command authority, was mistaken for an Egyptian vessel, and attacked.

It's a little bit different from the 'Stark', which was deliberately struck by a missile from an Iraqi jet while it was well beyond the Iraqi coast, and out of the exclusion zone which Baghdad had declared.

But then if you're a moronic neo-Nazi piece of shit, only one of these cases - and one of these group of sailors - is going to matter.

Incidentally, if anyone actually wants to read the truth about the USS Liberty, they could always consult A. Jay Cristol's 'The Liberty Incident' (NY: Brassey's 2002). Cristol has actually done something which we in the reality-based community call 'research'.'----------------------

Cristol is sayanim..loyal first to israel...and thoroughly debunked

' charlatan. n.

...A person who makes elaborate, fraudulent, and often voluble claims to skill or knowledge; a quack or fraud...

Background

A. Jay Cristol is a master of the art of lying through misdirection. His book is a perfect example of this talent. Without directly lying, he arranges facts (and omits others) in such a way as to lead a reader to a completely false conclusion. If challenged, he can reply that he didn't really lie, the error of fact only exists in the reader's mind. In addition to the articles in this critique which deal with the application of Cristol's special talent to the telling of the story of the Israeli attack on USS Liberty, it is instructive to see how he has done the same thing to give a false impression as to his own background. Since there is no evidence that he has etc

'As for the 'Liberty' survivors themselves, I can understand their feelings, but the harsh fact is that their unarmed ship was needlessly sent into a warzone by their command authority, was mistaken for an Egyptian vessel, and attacked.'===============

it was never mistaken for a ship that looked VERY different

Why did israel deliberately choose to attack the USS liberty, the docoDead in the Water tells us why...

Actually, sackcloth, I had never heard of the Liberty until about two years ago and when I first did my first idea was that it sounded very much like the attack on the USS Stark. What seems interesting in this is that conspiracy theorists are never interested in the attack on the Stark at all. Only the one perpetrated by the Israelis registers.

So you start here with an unsubstantiated allegation, and end with an outright fallacy.

'Debunked' does not mean 'Neo-Nazi kooks' hate his work. It means no one treats it as credible. Cristol's book was well-received by academic specialists; for example, the review in 'Foreign Affairs' described it as 'definitive'.

I presume also that the kooks who 'debunked' Cristol took the time and trouble to go through all the NSA he got declassified through the Freedom of Information Act.

'What seems interesting in this is that conspiracy theorists are never interested in the attack on the Stark at all. Only the one perpetrated by the Israelis registers.

I wonder why.'

It's for the same reason that the kooks ignore known acts of dirty tricks committed by the security services of Arab states, whether its sponsorship of terrorism, or acts of subversion from (for example) Egyptian and Syrian complicity in the Mosul rebellion of 1959 to the murder of Rafik al-Hariri in 2005.

I don't know if it's because they're ignorant cretins, racist pieces of shit, or both.

'What seems interesting in this is that conspiracy theorists are never interested in the attack on the Stark at all. Only the one perpetrated by the Israelis registers.

I wonder why.''=

==================

im wondering why you are evading the truth about USS liberty, and why you like the spineless congress support a state that has attacked the US, spies on the US, and as we saw with the Trojan episode in Libya, tricks the US...

'Debunked' does not mean 'Neo-Nazi kooks' hate his work. It means no one treats it as credible. Cristol's book was well-received by academic specialists; for example, the review in 'Foreign Affairs' described it as 'definitive'.'

what academic specialists? They should get new day jobs, of they cant see the fraud in Cristols work. Cristols jewish anda zionist...of clourse he will distory the truth ablout USS liberty..

I prefer the men of the Liberty..they were there.

'Cristol’s insufferable mantra: “The Israelis’ attack on the Liberty was an accident,” was repeated by him ad nauseam at the book signing. However, the overwhelming credible evidence shows that the Israeli attack was intentional (James M. Ennes, Jr.’s “Assault on the Liberty”), and that an insidious cover-up of that fact has continued down to the present day (James Bamford's “Body of Secrets”). Recently, two individuals from the U.S. intelligence community have come forward to verify that they had viewed intercepted real-time transcripts, on June 8, 1967, between Israeli jet pilots and their ground controllers, in which the Israelis clearly acknowledged that they knew that they were attacking, and worse still, trying to sink, “the American ship” (http://www.ussliberty.org/smoking.htm).

clear as cristol??

'Cristol first gave serious currency to “The Big Lie” when his book, The Liberty Incident, falsely claimed that up to 15 investigations “including five congressional investigations” had all inquired into the attack and exonerated Israel of any wrongdoing.

As we have demonstrated previously in these pages and elsewhere, that is totally untrue. No American investigation has ever inquired as to whether the attack was deliberate. Certainly no congressional inquiry has done so. Cristol’s dishonest tactic is to find a mention of the attack in some official record and call this an “investigation that exonerated Israel.”http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2007/0705026.html

Survivors repeatedly have asked Cristol and others to provide copies or other evidence of these so-called “investigations.” None has done so. They cannot. There are no such investigations. Similarly, we have asked them to remove their false statements. They refuse. These lies serve their purpose.

In fact, when survivors have sought details of such investigations from their congressmen, from the Navy Judge Advocate General, from the Library of Congress, from the Congressional Research Service, or from any other government agency, we have repeatedly been advised that there has never been any congressional investigation of Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty.

Most recently, on July 25, 2006, in response to a query from Liberty survivors, the Librarian of Congress wrote:

“After checking numerous resources, including the CIS (Congressional Information Service) Indexes to Congressional Hearings (both published and unpublished), and the Public Documents Masterfile, I could find no evidence that the Congress ever held hearings or launched an investigation into the June 8, 1967 incident with the USS Liberty. LC Control Number: 98135843.”http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2007/0705026.html

I prefer the men of the FDNY, Like Nick Visconti, Harry Myers, Robert Larocca and James McGlynn, Christopher Boyle and Peter Hayden. All of whom reported seeing massive fires on every floor and severe physical damage to WTC7, and predicted it would collapse on its own.

After all, they were there.

(This is where you try to explain why your logic applies to the USS Liberty but not to 9/11)

Capitol Hill, October 2003. It is a historic occasion. An independent, blue-ribbon commission is to release its findings from an investigation into an internationally significant 36-year-old attack on a US Navy ship that left more than 200 American sailors killed or wounded.

The commission consists of:

* A former ambassador to one of the US's most important allies

* A US Navy rear admiral and former head of the Navy's legal division

* A Marine general, America's highest ranking recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor and the former Assistant Commandant of Marines

* A US Navy four-star admiral, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (the highest military position in the country), former Chief of Naval Operations, a World War II hero, and the only Naval admiral to have commanded both the Pacific and the Atlantic fleets

The panel is moderated by a former ambassador who served as Chief of Mission in Iraq and Deputy Director of Ronald Reagan's White House Task Force on Terrorism.

The commission announces explosive findings:

* That the attack, by a US ally, was a "deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew"

* That the ally committed "acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States"

* That the attack involved the machine-gunning of stretcher-bearers and life rafts

* That "the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of the [ship] never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack"

* That surviving crewmembers were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they talked to anyone about what had happened to them; and were "abandoned by their own government"

* That due to the influence of the ally's "powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people"

* That due to continuing pressure by this lobby, this attack remains "the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress"

* That "there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history"

* That "the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace"

* That "a danger to the national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation" and that this policy "endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States"

Newsworthy?

Not when Israel is the attacking nation. Not when Israel is the "ally" to whose interests American needs are said to be subverted.

This extraordinarily high-ranking commission was reporting on the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty. Many analysts believe that the Liberty attack could be Israel's undoing --at least as far as US support is concerned --if Americans knew the facts about it.

But they don't. Here's why:

A search of hundreds of the largest news media in this country indexed by Lexis-Nexis does not turn up a single US newspaper that mentioned this commission, a single US television station, a single US radio station, a single US magazine. While it was mentioned in an Associated Press report focusing on one of the commission's most dramatic revelations, Lexis reveals only a sprinkling of news media printed information from this AP report, and those few that that did failed to mention this commission itself, its extremely star-studded composition, and the entirety of its findings.

the US media is subservient to israel...as many are owned by zionists..from the NYT tlo Murdochs press

'I prefer the men of the FDNY, Like Nick Visconti, Harry Myers, Robert Larocca and James McGlynn, Christopher Boyle and Peter Hayden. All of whom reported seeing massive fires on every floor and severe physical damage to WTC7, and predicted it would collapse on its own.

After all, they were there.

(This is where you try to explain why your logic applies to the USS Liberty but not to 9/11)=========================

only problem with YOUR logic is photographic evidence tells us fires were few and small./

see here:http://rwrant.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wtc7frame40gg5.jpg

thats just before the collapse...

SO YOUR eyewitnesses are proven to be poor obsevers or liars..

after all according to Silverstein, the Firebriage pullled the building!

only problem with YOUR logic is photographic evidence tells us fires were few and small./see here:http://rwrant.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wtc7frame40gg5.jpg

Your photograph shows a giant cloud of smoke behind WTC7. Smoke which came from the massive fires that the FDNY reported seeing on every floor of WTC7.

Good job shooting yourself in the foot, dumbass.

SO YOUR eyewitnesses are proven to be poor obsevers or liars..

The photograph you posted proves the opposite.

after all according to Silverstein, the Firebriage pullled the building!

Ah... so according to you, the FDNY survivors of 9/11 are worse than kooks. They are active participants in the coverup of the murders of their brothers-in-hoses.

That's great that you think that way. Really. Why don't you go to Farrell's Bar in New York City and explain to the guys there your little theory about FDNY complicity?

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/whattheyheard

Firefighters and their unions don't hesitate to demand that safety issues be addressed. At Farrell's bar in Brooklyn, which is a firefighter and cop hangout, I asked one of New York's Bravest how he would respond to someone who said the 9/11 first responders were keeping quiet about what killed their brothers. He laughed, shook his head, and said, "There better not be a Halligan around. I'd put it through his fucking skull." At the center of Farrell's back bar stands a cross made from WTC steel and a portrait of longtime Farrell's bartender Vinny Brunton, a FDNY Captain with Ladder 105, who died on 9/11.

CNNLIVE 9-11-2001...the fellow sayd Building 7 is collapsing or has collapsed...BUT WTC7 is still standing then he looks around, and we can see WTC7 still standing...Didnt anyone that day know what WTC7 like like?

'Ah... so according to you, the FDNY survivors of 9/11 are worse than kooks. They are active participants in the coverup of the murders of their brothers-in-hoses.

That's great that you think that way. Really. Why don't you go to Farrell's Bar in New York City and explain to the guys there your little theory about FDNY complicity?

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/whattheyheard

Firefighters and their unions don't hesitate to demand that safety issues be addressed. At Farrell's bar in Brooklyn, which is a firefighter and cop hangout, I asked one of New York's Bravest how he would respond to someone who said the 9/11 first responders were keeping quiet about what killed their brothers. He laughed, shook his head, and said, "There better not be a Halligan around. I'd put it through his fucking skull." At the center of Farrell's back bar stands a cross made from WTC steel and a portrait of longtime Farrell's bartender Vinny Brunton, a FDNY Captain with Ladder 105, who died on 9/11'===========================

thanks for showing just that firemen WOULD kill...that confirms they COULD commit an act like dmmolishing WTC7

what needs to be done is to subpoenza these fireman and have them explain their role in 9-11, and why Silverstein says firemen pulled it...

'Ah... so according to you, the FDNY survivors of 9/11 are worse than kooks. They are active participants in the coverup of the murders of their brothers-in-hoses.

That's great that you think that way. Really. Why don't you go to Farrell's Bar in New York City and explain to the guys there your little theory about FDNY complicity?

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/whattheyheard

Firefighters and their unions don't hesitate to demand that safety issues be addressed. At Farrell's bar in Brooklyn, which is a firefighter and cop hangout, I asked one of New York's Bravest how he would respond to someone who said the 9/11 first responders were keeping quiet about what killed their brothers. He laughed, shook his head, and said, "There better not be a Halligan around. I'd put it through his fucking skull." At the center of Farrell's back bar stands a cross made from WTC steel and a portrait of longtime Farrell's bartender Vinny Brunton, a FDNY Captain with Ladder 105, who died on 9/11'===========================

thanks for showing just that firemen WOULD kill...that confirms they COULD commit an act like dmmolishing WTC7

what needs to be done is to subpoenza these fireman and have them explain their role in 9-11, and why Silverstein says firemen pulled it...

'No, he said "it's definitely coming down... there's no way to stop it", you moron.

And yes, he knew what it looked like. It was the building with fire on every floor, the largest office building fire in history. There was no way anyone could miss it. =P=========================

there was no fier on 'every floor' just a few, and photos show most floors with intact windows!eg:http://www15.ocn.ne.jp/~oyakodon/newversion/pic11/wtc7_demolition.gif

thats just before the collapse....where are the fires ?

when it WAS collapsing, the naturally youd say: theres no way to stop it...

BUT that day, noone except thos firemen said it would collapse..FEMA however was stumped!

'NIST has finally released their final report into the collapse of Building 7, which collapsed inexplicably on 9/11. The New York Times quoted Sunder who said, "[The] reason for the collapse of World Trade Center 7 is no longer a mystery... It did not collapse from explosives or fuel oil fires.” Earlier, Sunder was scratching his head, saying, "We’ve had trouble getting a handle on Building No. 7." Similarly, the collapse baffled FEMA who lamely concluded, "The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence.” In other words, despite the fact that FEMA claimed a diesel fuel explosion would have been improbable, NIST is now asserting that mere "fires" knocked down WTC 7? As NIST admits, this would be the "first known instance of fire causing the total collapse of a tall building." A 9/11 blogger named Buru Dragon comments on NIST's press conference saying:

[A] reporter appeared to temporarily stump Sunder with a very basic but perfect question. Throughout the presentation Sunder spoke about building seven as if it were particularly susceptible to collapse by even moderate fires because of the design. However Sunder would later go on to explain that it would require a very large amount of explosives to bring it down by demolition... "if the buildings were so vulnerable to collapse due to regular fires alone, wouldn’t they also be equally vulnerable to failure with just a small number of explosives?" Sunder... proceeded to stumble through some convoluted explanation for why only fire could be responsible... [seeming] caught off guard and uncomfortable.

If this wasn't bizarre enough, NIST took 7 years to reach this conclusion. Jim Hoffman commented in response to FEMA's original report:

People who have seen buildings implode in controlled demolitions are unlikely to be as challenged as FEMA's team in understanding the cause of Building 7's collapse. They will notice, upon watching the videos, that Building 7's collapse showed all of the essential features of a controlled demolition. '

2.) Thanks for showing you have absolutely no reading comprehension skills.

that confirms they COULD commit an act like dmmolishing WTC7

That they would be enraged at being accused of killing their brothers proves they would kill their brothers?

Does that actually make sense to you?

what needs to be done is to subpoenza these fireman and have them explain their role in 9-11,

You don't need a subpoena. Book a flight to NYC and ask them yourself.

I'll give you a whole Canadian dollar if you do.

As it is, the fact remains that the logic you apply to the USS Liberty proves that WTC7 was the biggest office building fire in history. As fun as it is watching you tie yourself into knots over it, you can't have it both ways.

put your thinking cap on Sword of what....as you can see from YOU photo(thanks)...the adjacent side is FIRE FREE...if that smokey side was roaring with fires how come none can be seen on the adjacent side?HMM?

this is where you a you are a mormon and a christian(most christians would dispute that).

The official name of the Mormon church is "The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints". It is engraved on every chapel and temple we build and is printed on every book and pamphlet we publish.

For someone to say we are not christian, they would have to be as stupid and as blinded by hatred as a 9/11 truther.

SO did YOU confuse youself with Stephen Jones?

The Book of Mormon states "Yea, and ye need not any longer hiss, nor spurn, nor make game of the Jews, nor of any remnant of the house of Israel; for behold, the Lord remembereth his covenant unto them, and he will do unto them according to that which he hath sworn."

By taking up common cause with Holocaust Deniers, white supremacists and nazi apologists and giving them aid and comfort Steven Jones has violated the principles of our religion and has betrayed his faith as well as his country.

Only you would be stupid enough to confuse me with him.

or is lying natural for you?

I've told no lies here. I've described WTC7 as the largest office building fire in history, and the photographic and eyewitness testimony from the FDNY and others backs me up on this.

so why is that adjacent side smoke free?

Because the windows were broken primarily on that one side. When the north tower collapsed, thousands of tons of debris crashed into south side of WTC7. The reason we see the smoke from the raging fires described by Visconti, Myers, Larocca and McGlynn coming from mostly one side is because the smoke is following the path of least resistance.

I was hoping you would be able to figure that out on your own, but appearantly you're too stupid even for that.

In fact... if I didn't know any better, I'd swear you were acting this moronic because you already have explained your theories to the FDNY and are suffering from a severe brain injury due to someone sticking a halligan through your skull.

By taking up common cause with Holocaust Deniers, white supremacists and nazi apologists and giving them aid and comfort Steven Jones has violated the principles of our religion and has betrayed his faith as well as his country.==========================

interestingly some of those those victimised by the nazis actually worked WITH the nazis

http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html

and so its no surprise these zionists are holocausting the palestinians, as well as subertinmg the US govt and attacking US ships

'Heikki Kurttila, a Finnish Doctor of Engineering and accident researcher, has made detailed calculations about the collapse speed of WTC 7. He concludes that the short collapse time and low structural resistance "strongly suggest controlled demolition". Kurttila notes that an apple dropped from the height of WTC 7's roof would have taken about 0.5 seconds longer to reach the ground than it took the skyscraper to be completely destroyed.'http://11syyskuu.blogspot.com/2006/02/destruction-of-wtc-7.html

how does he get 16 seconds time for collapse? There are two incicdents: one the binitial collapse of the penthouse as the middle columns are blown (standard CD), then then the building proper collapses...from his second 10 to second 16.

NOW id count the fall of WTC7 from his 9 or 10 second mark... to the bend..because until then,..its stil standing and NOT falling./

That's what truthers always do. They always disregard the first two thirds of the collapse.==========================

but theres no collapse of the main structure..the boffin can see that you can see that and i can see that.The boffin engages in a sleight of hand :...10 seconds into HIS count the building is still there!!

the fires are small and of limited duration- Some lying racist scumbag on the internet

I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run.–FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti

When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty-seven stories.–FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers

It was fully engulfed, that whole building. There were pieces of tower two [sic: he probably means tower one] in building Seven and the corners of the building missing and what-not. But just looking up at it from ground level however many stories -- it was 40 some odd -- you could see the flames going straight through from one side of the building to the other, that’s an entire block. – Firefighter Tiernach Cassidy, FDNY

We spoke to with a FDNY Chief who has his men holed up in the US Post Office building. He informed us that the fires in building 7 were uncontrollable and that its collapse was imminent. There were no fires inside the loading dock (of 7) at this time but we could hear explosions deep inside. –Port Authority Police Department Officer William Connors

"There's number Seven World Trade. That's the OEM bunker." We had a snicker about that. We looked over, and it's engulfed in flames and starting to collapse."–Firefighter Gerard Suden

The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower, and there was fire on every floor." – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman

"When I got out and onto a clear pile, I see that 7 World Trade Center and the customs house have serious fire. Almost every window has fire. It is an amazing site. –Captain Jay Jonas, Ladder 6, FDNY

7 World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved. It was unbelievable. –Firefighter Steve Modica

So I attempted to get in through the Barkley Street ramp which is on Barkley (sic) and West Broadway, but I was being held back by the fire department, because 7 World Trade, which is above the ramp, was now fully engulfed.–PAPD K-9 Sergeant David Lim

We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert Larocco

Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. –FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn

'"When I got out and onto a clear pile, I see that 7 World Trade Center and the customs house have serious fire. Almost every window has fire. It is an amazing site. –Captain Jay Jonas, Ladder 6, FDNY'

We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert Larocco

really? almost every window?http://www.attivissimo.net/11settembre/wtc7/wtc7_post-crollo-wtc1_01.jpghttp://elproyectomatriz.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/wtc7.jpg

i dont see fire in almost every window...i see a lot of INTACT windows..

so id say they are lying...or dont you believe the evidene of YOUR senses!

'Sword of Truth', remember you're dealing with a cretin here. Anonymous hasn't got the wit or the self-awareness to realise that he's a moronic neo-Nazi piece of shit who's sole purpose in life is to rant about da JOOOOOS.

He's been caught lying on everything from the Liberty to 9/11, but he's too much of an inbred cracker to recognise it.