We're thinking of giving the shields a little more buffing on our next campaign.

We're already playing with offhand -1 to hit and can't ever crit. Negative modifiers can be offset on heroes by skill.

Shields and hand weapon combo grants 5+ save in CC.

Toying with the following buff to shields:

Models armed with shields gets +1 attack in form of a shield bash.

This attacks is made at -1 Strength and opponents gets +1 armour save.

This attack can never crit unless hero has Dual Wield skill.

The theory behind this is that even with the negative modifiers to the additional hand weapon the +1 attack you get is still too good. By giving models equipped with shields also +1 attack, hopefully players will have a meaningful choice make between attack and defense.

I think this change will go too far, what would be the point in taking anything else? Plus it just doesn't seem right that a shield be so effective offensively.

We use a rule that dual wielding gives -1 weaponskill (on both weapons, due to the skill and concentration it requires - also means fewer different dice to keep track of).

This means we don't need a skill to offset it either as a weaponskill advance effectively does that. Also means dual wielding is now mostly done by skilled warriors (who are effected less) while for the Ws2/3 grunts it isn't worth it...which is as it should be I feel.

Also, fluffwise I think offhand weapons ought to be able to cause critical hits as it represents a well timed dagger thrust.

I think this change will go too far, what would be the point in taking anything else? Plus it just doesn't seem right that a shield be so effective offensively.

We use a rule that dual wielding gives -1 weaponskill (on both weapons, due to the skill and concentration it requires - also means fewer different dice to keep track of).

This means we don't need a skill to offset it either as a weaponskill advance effectively does that. Also means dual wielding is now mostly done by skilled warriors (who are effected less) while for the Ws2/3 grunts it isn't worth it...which is as it should be I feel.

Also, fluffwise I think offhand weapons ought to be able to cause critical hits as it represents a well timed dagger thrust.

Except it is still worth it even for WS2 and WS3 warriors.

Let's use your example with the -1 to hit on both weapons:

Take your standard WS3 and S3 grant and assuming he's fighting an opponent with WS4 and T3.

If he only had a single weapon he's change of wounding is 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 or 25%.

If he dual wielded - (1/3 + 1/3) x 1/2 = 1/3 or 33%.

If he only suffered from the -1 on his offhand - (1/2 + 1/3) x 1/2 = 5/12 or 42%.

So really it's actually more effective even for low WS warriors to dual wield than be armed with just a single weapon.

In my group we are toying with something similar, but have not yet solidified on any 1 thing yet. It is all in the context of buffing parry as well, so we are looking at slightly different mechanics. In the before-before time I did medieval reenactment and one of the things the trainers drilled into us when we were learning to use shields is that "A Shield is a weapon that has been optimised for blocking and parrying" so we are also looking at making them not even count as armour.

The penalties we are trying out are:-1S-1I (for the shield/buckler attack only)+1ASCannot Crit

In my group we are toying with something similar, but have not yet solidified on any 1 thing yet. It is all in the context of buffing parry as well, so we are looking at slightly different mechanics. In the before-before time I did medieval reenactment and one of the things the trainers drilled into us when we were learning to use shields is that "A Shield is a weapon that has been optimised for blocking and parrying" so we are also looking at making them not even count as armour.

The penalties we are trying out are:-1S-1I (for the shield/buckler attack only)+1ASCannot Crit

For parries I highly suggest adopting the whole defender rolls dice and adds to their WS and attacker adds his WS to his attack roll. If total score for defender is higher then the blow is parried.

I suppose if we're giving shields an extra attack we'll have to extend the same bonus to bucklers as well. I like the idea of bucklers giving an additional +1 to AS as this would differentiate it from shields making bucklers slightly worse.

Not sure about the -1I only in that it might slow down combat a bit in that you might have to roll your attacks in different sequence - adds a bit more complication. Also think that the -1S and can't Crit might be punishment enough.

I wouldn't go as far as removing shields and bucklers entirely from providing AS. I think with the combo of a 5+AS in CC and an extra attack, even at -1S, would give players a meaningful choice between hand weapon and shield v dual wielding.

We still make bucklers and shields add to AS (+1 ranged, +2 melee for shields, +1 melee for bucklers) we are just making them count as a weapon rather than counting as armour, albeit a weapon that doesn't cost a slot to equip.

The differentiation between a shield and a buckler we are going for is that the shield is a better shield and a buckler is a better weapon.

For parry we are considering between four different options:1/ A flat 5+ save (consistent with Step Aside, Dodge, etc.).2/ D6+Ws, 7+ is a success (consistent with Ballistic Skill, Armour Saves, etc.).3/ 4+ save, +1 if WS is higher, -1 if WS<(Enemy's WS/2) (consistent with WS combat).4/ 4+ save, +/-1 or more, depending on difference between your WS and opponent's WS (consistent with rolling to wound).

Depending on the base system there may be one or more other modifiers e.g. +1 if your WS is higher than your opponents, +1 if your Strength is higher, +1 for a particular skill, +1 for certain weapons, -1 against certain weapons, etc.

We have found the -1I doesn't slow things down much, certainly no more than Ithilmar weapons do. If they are really bothered you can always get an Ithilmar shield or buckler to get rid of the penalty .

A brain-storm for me to think over - may or may not be useful to anyone else: Make all offhand weapons (including shields and bucklers) gain Parry. If your main hand weapon has parry you can parry two attacks. Shields and bucklers can re-roll parries? Or get +1 to parrys? What if both hands have a non-shield parry weapon?

For parry we are considering between four different options:1/ A flat 5+ save (consistent with Step Aside, Dodge, etc.).2/ D6+Ws, 7+ is a success (consistent with Ballistic Skill, Armour Saves, etc.).3/ 4+ save, +1 if WS is higher, -1 if WS<(Enemy's WS/2) (consistent with WS combat).4/ 4+ save, +/-1 or more, depending on difference between your WS and opponent's WS (consistent with rolling to wound).

Depending on the base system there may be one or more other modifiers e.g. +1 if your WS is higher than your opponents, +1 if your Strength is higher, +1 for a particular skill, +1 for certain weapons, -1 against certain weapons, etc.

I like (1) the least out of the four. A flat 5+ Ward save I think is too good as it puts parry on par with skills like Step Aside. It also doesn't take into consideration the WS of opponents.

One would think a skilled WS6 Swordsman would have a higher chance of parrying then a lowly WS2 Young Blood.

(2) is better but still problematic as it doesn't take into consideration of the opponent's WS. It makes sense that an attack from a higher WS opponent will be harder to parry.

(3) and (4) is good as it takes into consideration of the opponent's WS. As for the modifiers they can be fun as along as they don't drag down combat too much.

Lord 0 wrote:

A brain-storm for me to think over - may or may not be useful to anyone else: Make all offhand weapons (including shields and bucklers) gain Parry. If your main hand weapon has parry you can parry two attacks. Shields and bucklers can re-roll parries? Or get +1 to parrys? What if both hands have a non-shield parry weapon?

I don't think giving all offhand weapons the ability to parry is a good idea. Parry is what makes swords and bucklers unique. IRL weapons like axes, morning stars and maces are horrible weapons to parry with.

A shield should not give parry because you're already getting an improved AS bonus compared to the buckler.

Here's how we play when it comes to swords and bucklers:

A sword grants you one parry.

Dual wielding swords with give you one parry plus a re-roll on a failed parry.

A buckler grants one parry.

A sword and buckler combo grants you one parry plus a re-roll of a failed parry.

This adheres to the idea that a model is only ever allowed to parry one attack per combat phase.

That is what we *were* using for a while, but, as predicted, it pretty much led to the extinction of the buckler. If a sword and bucker grants a parry and a reroll and a sword and sword grants a parry and a reroll then the +1A from a sword is so much more powerful than +1AS in melee that it is a no-brainer what to take.

That is what we *were* using for a while, but, as predicted, it pretty much led to the extinction of the buckler. If a sword and bucker grants a parry and a reroll and a sword and sword grants a parry and a reroll then the +1A from a sword is so much more powerful than +1AS in melee that it is a no-brainer what to take.

Of curiosity, will you be including shield spikes?

But don't forget that we're also giving the buckler a +1A albeit at -1S. This along with the +1 AS and the ability to parry or re-roll parry will mean players will have a meaningful choice to make between attack (dual wield -1 to hit on off hand) and defense (hand weapon and buckler -1S for off hand).

Not a big fan of shield spike because I don't think you should be ever to crit on the off hand (unless with skill) as it makes it too OP.

One way to make spiked shields/bucklers work is to increase their cost and remove the +1AS penalty to its attack maybe...

But yeah I do think the +1A to shields/bucklers does have some mileage to it. Will be definitely including it in our next campaign run to see how it works out.