I'm not asking for 30 wave. I'm asking for Gold. That being said, earlier in this thread I said I'd meet that problem when it comes. So far, I haven't run in to any player who has said "I cannot do it."

Why would you hear if people cannot do it? If you set a requirement and a person finds himself unable to fulfill it the logical choice, when put as in the op, is to conclude there is no future in your flex raids and quit the guild. Why would anyone, if you say it is that way or the high way, think it worthwhile to even try to explain why they find it impossible?

What words do you offer to give any hope beyond no hope at all?

Do not take the wrong conclusion away from that, there is nothing truly wrong with asking it. I am just wondering why people should expect they could barter for a chance of leniency. Edit 2: Well in a guild with 505 geared people it is not the best target to solve issues in flex but *shrugs*

Why would you hear if people cannot do it? If you set a requirement and a person finds himself unable to fulfill it the logical choice, when put as in the op, is to conclude there is no future in your flex raids and quit the guild. Why would anyone, if you say it is that way or the high way, think it worthwhile to even try to explain why they find it impossible?

You're misquoting me. The quote was responding to the problem of a "Class issue" - not a player issue. I don't have mistweaver monks. My fire mage and affliction warlock and disc priest all did it.

And they'd talk to me instead of gquitting because I've been coaching them through, offering advice on specific phases.

These are things that I will do while raiding - analyzing performance and providing feedback to specific players. However, with 4 hours a week available to us, any metric that I can use (requiring 510 ilvl, gold achievement) to help reach a basic level to work from is a great tool for me.

I find that logs are sufficient, though. Why not just ask for those? I guess it's easier to link an achievement than actually look through a set of data to determine a player's potential...>.< although I'm surprised at the backlash in this thread, some people seem personally offended at the thought of proving grounds performance being considered as a metric for a raid spot.

Proving grounds test more than just straight DPSing, Healing, and Tanking. It tests all the other skills as well such as movement, coordination and prioritising. People who fail at it remind me of players who could never handle CC and/or be relied upon to interrupt. I did Gold Healer on my first try, and it was my offspec and not properly configured.

"If you look out of the window as a human being, at nature, all of nature is unconditionally and absolutely beautiful wherever it is. Whether it's a jungle. Whether it's a desert. Whether it's the Arctic wastes. Or even your own back garden. The only ugly things you will ever see when you look out of the window are things made by man." - Stephen Fry

So, instead of trying to come up with a practical solution to the problem, you decided that everyone in your raid group must have some arbitrary achievement that really teaches them nothing?

How many times did you wipe before you made this decision? 5, 6?

First, explain how asking DPS to do an outside-the-raid single player thing where they do dps on the correct targets quickly while avoiding AoE to prepare them for a raid fight where you have to DPS the correct targets quickly while avoiding AoE is not "practical."

I can't believe so many people here are opposed to the idea of having guild members do basic requirements in order to prove their usefulness. It's simple if you can't achieve gold in proven grounds then you probably don't have good enough basic motor skills or understand your class enough to raid efficiently. Proving grounds may not have a direct correlation to raiding, but it provides an obstacle where you actually have to know the toolkits of your class to pass it.

The ego of some people while reading this thread is laughable, "If my GM told me to do that, i'd gquit and it'll be his loss!" , "He can't tell me what to do, he doesn't pay my subscription." If I was a guild leader and my members couldn't even pass gold in something as trivial as Proving Grounds then be my guest to leave. You probably didn't contribute anything to the guild in the first place. Join another guild and have fun doing Timeless Isle dailies, while trying to convince yourself that can be a shit player all you want because you pay $15 dollars a month. News flash - you're wasting everybody elses time that pay the same amount of money you are because you refuse to 'better' yourself.

Now your argument would be "but proving grounds don't even have the same mechanics as raiding" You might be right, but it you're still relying on basics. Staying out of void zones, dps'ing the correct target and such. Arena doesn't have the same mechanics as raiding either, but if I was given two recruits with same identical gear, but one has no achievements proving his worth other then 10,000 quests or something equally useless. While the other had 2700+ arena ratings, with mutiple Gladiator feat of strengths. You bet your ass i'd pick the one with the higher arena rating, why? Because despite arena and raiding being on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Him having those achievements PROVES that he has good reaction times and have at least, the very least an understanding of strategy and other classes on how they work.

Personally I think it's a great idea! You can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink! Tossing all the WOL information in the world at a player that can't disect or understand it is useless however throwing them in a proving ground and showing them where there gaps are and then workign with them to fix it is a "teach a man to fish > give a man a fish" solution! They can see they have an issue fix it go back and get a good guage for how well they resolved there issue by re runing it!

The proof is in the OP's edit where some were miss gemming and forging and were able to find gaps! I would say not all the prooving grounds are the same for each class *looking at all the self heals a prot pallie has with envy* but it's still a great tool for a more casual run raid to point out issue with it's raiders > " You really didnt do good read up and fix it for next week" when that same player has no idea what was wrong or how to fix it!

First, explain how asking DPS to do an outside-the-raid single player thing where they do dps on the correct targets quickly while avoiding AoE to prepare them for a raid fight where you have to DPS the correct targets quickly while avoiding AoE is not "practical."

I can't believe so many people here are opposed to the idea of having guild members do basic requirements in order to prove their usefulness. It's simple if you can't achieve gold in proven grounds then you probably don't have good enough basic motor skills or understand your class enough to raid efficiently. Proving grounds may not have a direct correlation to raiding, but it provides an obstacle where you actually have to know the toolkits of your class to pass it.

The thing is, PG doesn't prove anyone (or at least DPS)'s usefullness. What void zone to stay out? I stand still at least half duration of each wave. What target I need to DPS? I only DoT everything I could see, that's all (except 3 waves with the banana monkeys). I've gotten Gold. I've gone through 30+ waves of Endless as a SP just for fun without bother to reforge / regem / switch meta for it, but I can't see it has any relation to raid.
So after all, it boils down to a decision upon a whim of the raid leader that doesn't really help the raid anyway, that's what I'd call BS. It makes your raid leader tell you that you have to play a bullet hell game in order to learn dodging stuff, would you go and do that?

It doesn't really prove someone's usefulness at all. What it does do is prove someone's uselessness when they can't do it. As such, I would only do something like this when my intention is actually to weed people out, and not be surprised when some people are unwilling or unable to do it. If that is the intention, then I see nothing wrong with it.

As far as requiring Gold, Endless 10, 20, 30, 1000, it really is arbitrary and is up to the Raid Leader to decide what level he deems to be the bare minimum for someone competent enough for his raid.

Let me know how you do if you don't switch to Banshees correctly or get hit by orbs.

The banshees have a 15s life duration. I DoT it when it's up, not much for switching target. The only time I had to do more than DoT-the-world to handle the banshees was from wave 17 in Endless. Not to mention, they don't spawn frequent enough and has a very easily recognize shriek as they spawn (except the dual banshees in 1 out of 10 repetitive waves). Orbs? I placed myself behind a mob, let it be my shield and never cared about it again. That certainly isn't avoiding AoE in my book, as all of AoE in raid can't be avoided using the same method. As I said in my previous post in this thread, the orb mechanic is a gimmick that doesn't happen in raid - for the whole MoP at least (other expansions are too long ago to remember), there hasn't been a fight in a raid that require a DPS to kite an orb to a mob.

The thing is, PG doesn't prove anyone (or at least DPS)'s usefullness. What void zone to stay out? I stand still at least half duration of each wave. What target I need to DPS? I only DoT everything I could see, that's all (except 3 waves with the banana monkeys). I've gotten Gold. I've gone through 30+ waves of Endless as a SP just for fun without bother to reforge / regem / switch meta for it, but I can't see it has any relation to raid.
So after all, it boils down to a decision upon a whim of the raid leader that doesn't really help the raid anyway, that's what I'd call BS. It makes your raid leader tell you that you have to play a bullet hell game in order to learn dodging stuff, would you go and do that?

It's obvious you're a clear cut above the rest and already have a good understanding of your character if you've gotten past 30+ waves of Endless. Kudos to you, Proving Grounds is just another trivial, time-sink. Good thing it's called 'Proving Grounds' and you've proved yourself. You're an F1 driver that just passed the driving test!

That's not my point at all though, read the last part of my post. I said specifically that the argument, "Proving grounds has no correlation to raiding" is invalid and anybody that basis their thought process on that needs to not be involved. I REPEAT - Proving Grounds is there to put your fundamentals to the test, not provide you a raiding simulation to practice on boss fights.

We can both agree that at the very core part of this game is you, the player. You control your avatar, and use WASD and your mouse to manipulate the way your character moves around in static world with obstacles that are thrown your way weather it be another player shooting fireballs at you, or a Dragon tail-swiping you. At the very core of this game is learning to control your character and its toolkit. PG allows you to do this; you have to listen and watch for the Banshee, you have to keep track of the orbs coming toward you and use it to your advantage, you have to get out of the bananas that the monkeys fling, you have to stay behind a target in order to dps them correctly, you have to interrupt healing spells and properly use your AoE. These are all BASICS, every -single- player that wants to raid even casually should know how to do.

If your raid leader asks you to do the most simplest of task to show you're not an absolute moron and waste other peoples time, then I believe it's a completely reasonable request. Maybe i'm old fashioned, but back then when your guild asked you to farm up some resist gear for specific fights, you did it because you're part of a group of people that rely on one another to succeed. If you honestly believe doing that compared to doing PG was 'too much work' or that since you pay for your own subscription you should be the dictator of your own choices then MMO's probably aren't for you and should stick to single player games.

The banshees have a 15s life duration. I DoT it when it's up, not much for switching target. The only time I had to do more than DoT-the-world to handle the banshees was from wave 17 in Endless. Not to mention, they don't spawn frequent enough and has a very easily recognize shriek as they spawn (except the dual banshees in 1 out of 10 repetitive waves).

Big banshees cannot just be dotted and left alone. Additionally, that shows you can do exactly what I said - dps'ing the correct target. Also, hint: not all classes are DoT classes.

Orbs? I placed myself behind a mob, let it be my shield and never cared about it again. That certainly isn't avoiding AoE in my book, as all of AoE in raid can't be avoided using the same method. As I said in my previous post in this thread, the orb mechanic is a gimmick that doesn't happen in raid - for the whole MoP at least (other expansions are too long ago to remember), there hasn't been a fight in a raid that require a DPS to kite an orb to a mob.

It's awareness of things that could kill you. That's the textbook example of not standing in fire.

its easier on some specs that others so pointless for comparing Player A to player B unless they are the same spec, and even then I'd say its a BS tool.
I'd also ignore it on principle as it does not really compare to a raid setting.

Stop looking for easy to measure cop outs. Get people in a raid, show some leadership, inspire them, and make calls based on experience.

its easier on some specs that others so pointless for comparing Player A to player B unless they are the same spec, and even then I'd say its a BS tool.
I'd also ignore it on principle as it does not really compare to a raid setting.

Stop looking for easy to measure cop outs. Get people in a raid, show some leadership, inspire them, and make calls based on experience.

It's not comparing player A to B. Getting tired of the same responses by people who can't read.

its easier on some specs that others so pointless for comparing Player A to player B unless they are the same spec, and even then I'd say its a BS tool.
I'd also ignore it on principle as it does not really compare to a raid setting.

Stop looking for easy to measure cop outs. Get people in a raid, show some leadership, inspire them, and make calls based on experience.

If a player can't pass proving grounds to even prove that they have the most basic of motor skills necessary for WoW, no amount of 'inspiring' or 'leadership' will make them press their buttons faster, or react faster to a certain mechanic. It's a simple hands-on training that proves you can do even the most mundane of tasks.

If a player can't pass proving grounds to even prove that they have the most basic of motor skills necessary for WoW, no amount of 'inspiring' or 'leadership' will make them press their buttons faster, or react faster to a certain mechanic. It's a simple hands-on training that proves you can do even the most mundane of tasks.

But it doesn't differentiate between the person who does it first try easily and the person who struggled through 16 tries before just barely making it. And, frankly, if you raid with people for even a few nights you'll know who's standing in fire etc. And then you can talk to them about their performance in an actual raid.