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In article <Xns958AE46F8788Bklotjohan@130.133.1.4>, Roland Karlsson
says...
> Hi,
>
> There have been a voting about dividingt the r.p.d. - a real one.
> It is now ready. And we will have 4 brand new groups in 4 days from now.
>
> Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?
>
> Did you know that two of the groups are called zlr and point+shoot?
>
> Do you know what a zlr is?
>
> Do you really know what a point+shoot is?
>
> Do you know what the other two groups are called?
>
> In what group are you planning to post printing and editing things?
>
> And where are you going to discuss different technology stuff, e.g.
> about sensors and anti shake and flash memory?
>
> Are there any range-finder flash memory out there?
>
> OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
> seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?

As far as I know rpd will continue to exist - it's just that they will
add four new groups, which you are free to ignore. And no, I do not know
what a zlr is.
--

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Woodbury, NY—Everybody loves the profits that high-end customers can
bring in, and these days the fat-wallet crowd is buying tons of high-end
digital ZLRs—zoom lens reflex digicams equipped with non-interchangeable
zoom lenses.

So naturally, retailers are focusing on the best way to make the ZLR
sale. The catch is, won’t selling more digital ZLRs just cannibalize
your sales of digital SLRs?

And if that happens, should you care? As marketing expert Adrienne Zoble
told a PMA session in Las Vegas, "If you believe in ‘all or nothing,’
nothing will always win. On the other hand, if you think ‘something is
better than nothing,’ you’ll be amazed at what you can accomplish."

On the ZLR side of the equation, we’re talking about digicams like the
Canon Powershot Pro1, Fujifilm FinePix S20 Pro, Konica Minolta Dimage
A2, Nikon Coolpix 8700, Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom and Sony Cyber-shot
DSC-F828; all are models that sell for around a thousand dollars.

On the digital SLR side, at about the same price point, are the fairly
recent Canon Digital Rebel and Nikon D70.

(You can quibble about the definition of ZLR, but it’s a lot easier to
say than either zoom lens reflex or prosumer digicam. Way back when, the
Olympus 35mm zoom lens models like the iS-20 DLX were the first cameras
I ever heard described as ZLRs. More recently, Olympus has pointed out
that the prosumer most likely has never worked as a commercial
photographer full time but has a passion for the medium—"a serious
hobbyist or high-end amateur who may come from a 35mm SLR photo
background or with intensive computer background, in addition to the
love of photography or digital imaging." These are the customers who
can’t wait to get their hands on one of today’s ZLRs.)

The sales dilemma is simple enough to express, just not simple to deal
with: Should you sell your customers a ZLR when you might be able to
sell them a digital SLR instead? For you, a digital SLR comes with the
advantage of possible accessory sales—lenses and flash units, for
starters; but many ZLRs offer accessory adapter lenses.

On the SLR side, many of your high-end customers own 35mm SLRs and a
bunch of lenses, and now that both Canon and Nikon have digital SLR
bodies at around a thousand dollars, lens owners are thinking of adding
a digital body so they can use all that glass. Chuck Westfall, director
of technical information for Camera Products at Canon USA, said, "Canon
expects the prosumer category of digital cameras and their customers to
expand dramatically in 2004 and beyond, with many of the remaining
holdouts from the analog world finally deciding to make the move to
digital."

So why should these folks pay for the zoom lens on a ZLR when they
already have a bagful of lenses? Well, "bagful" may be the key, as in
weight, and "save your back—buy a ZLR" might be part of your sales
pitch. The ZLRs have 5x to 8x zoom lenses that start at the equivalent
of 28 or 35mm wide-angle coverage and zoom out to 140mm, 200mm, even
280mm tele. It would take four or five fixed-focal-length lenses to
match that range, or at least a couple of zooms. Compare the weight of
that load with the mere 1.5 or 2 pounds that the ZLRs weigh, complete
with batteries.

Besides the weight, the simplicity of not having to change lenses is a
big advantage for the many prosumers who take photographs related to
their jobs (e.g., real estate agents who take pictures of houses for
sale) but who aren’t photo experts and don’t want to be.

Another noteworthy fact about ZLR lenses: You’ve noticed several
manufacturers are using premium-brand lenses, a trend made to order for
photo specialty retailers. Examples are the Sony DSC-F828, with its
Zeiss zoom; Canon’s PowerShot Pro1, with a Canon L-series lens; and
Nikon’s Coolpix 8700 with an ED-glass Nikkor lens. That extra lens
quality, not to mention snob appeal, can help you sell the upscale
models and retain your profit margin.

ZLRs also offer special features that may be really important to some of
your customers. For instance, the Konica Minolta Dimage A2 has an
anti-shake feature, and the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 has Sony’s
NightFraming system to compose flash photos in low-light or no-light
conditions, and Sony’s NightShot infrared system that enables the camera
to capture pictures in total darkness at distances up to 15 feet by
using infrared illumination.

The last word on ZLRs may come from Jon Sienkiewicz, vice president of
marketing for Konica Minolta USA’s camera division. Some prosumer camera
purchasers buying their first digicam are trying to get maximum
versatility, while others, who already own an early model digicam or a
low-end starter camera, want to replace it and step up to a
current-generation ZLR. Which leads Sienkiewicz to observe, "People are
trying to buy their last camera fiZLR body, digital soul

Roland Karlsson <> wrote:
>Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?

Yes, I knew the vote was coming, but (probably to my
detriment) don't read news.groups. I assumed the CFV
would come in RPD. I was away for the weekend and it
appears the vote happened.
>OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
>seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?

Ah well, if it's so bad the groups will be taken care
of by natural selection.

Personally, I hoped for r.p.d.slr-systems and
r.p.d.software and r.p.d.storage.

On 22 Oct 2004 20:27:22 GMT, Roland Karlsson wrote:
> There have been a voting about dividingt the r.p.d. - a real one.
> It is now ready. And we will have 4 brand new groups in 4 days from now.
>
> Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?

No, I didn't.
>
> Did you know that two of the groups are called zlr and point+shoot?

Yes.
> Do you know what a zlr is?

I voted against it.
> Do you really know what a point+shoot is?

Yes.
> Do you know what the other two groups are called?

Yes, and I voted against them.
> In what group are you planning to post printing and editing things?

Here.
> And where are you going to discuss different technology stuff, e.g.
> about sensors and anti shake and flash memory?

Here.
> Are there any range-finder flash memory out there?

Sorry, you lost me on that one.
> OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
> seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?

>From: Roland Karlsson
>There have been a voting about dividingt the r.p.d. - a real one.
>It is now ready. And we will have 4 brand new groups in 4 days from now.
>
>Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?

It was posted several times on this and the 35 mm NGs. Hard to see how you
missed it.
>OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
>seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?

No I didn't miss it ... I voted against it (one of the few, the proud but it
looks like the vast majority favors it.

So long as they keep this NG alive you can just ignore the new ones ... no big
deal.

Roland Karlsson wrote:
>
>OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
>seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?

big deal, if you had read the newsgroup at all during the last 30 days you would
have had two chances to vote and there was about 3 months of discussion before
that.
I voted against it and they voted to split it up.

BUT, this is not an elist or an online forum. they cannot force structure or
subject constraints here. again, big Whoop! I will keep on discussing anything
and everthing in rpd with no change.

just ignore the voting and go on. I expect that nearly everyone will eventually
come back to the ACTIVE NG which those split offs are not going to be ....

Ken Tough wrote:
> Roland Karlsson <> wrote:
>
>> Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?
>
> Yes, I knew the vote was coming, but (probably to my
> detriment) don't read news.groups. I assumed the CFV
> would come in RPD. I was away for the weekend and it
> appears the vote happened.
>

Me, too, and yes, it did; however, the advisement and procedure were
posted at least twice with appropriate prefix in the subject line. I was
fortunate enough to see them, and I voted.
>> OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
>> seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?
>
> Ah well, if it's so bad the groups will be taken care
> of by natural selection.
>
> Personally, I hoped for r.p.d.slr-systems and
> r.p.d.software and r.p.d.storage.

My turn for a <whinge>: I liked the slr-system idea, but was in the
minority of something like 10%. I hoped for r.p.d.arty-stuff and
r.p.d.tech-babble. No such luck. </whinge>

Roland Karlsson wrote:
>
> Are there any range-finder flash memory out there?
>
> OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
> seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?
>
>
> /Roland

The Zealots who decided to fork the group seem not to have had the
foresight to do it properly. Somehow, after reading this group for some
time, I've come to the conclusion the forking of the group is not in the
interests of it's readers or posters.

If you remover the "what's the best digicam" and "where is the best
price" posts and their replies, a large part of the group traffic is not
about DSLRs or ZSLRs but about the topical matters which affect all
photographers.

I have several MF cameras, a 20D and a digicam. All have their use. Am I
to believe the forkers are serious in attempting to prevent me and those
few million other photographers like me, from discussing photography if
it does not conform to their narrow definition of what can and cannot be
discussed? Bloody minded zealots!

All I can say is "Good luck". Freedom is not about limitations. It's a
good thing then, that this group will still exist because starting new
groups based on prohibition is stepping back to a time I really don't
want to visit.

Roland Karlsson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There have been a voting about dividingt the r.p.d. - a real one.
> It is now ready. And we will have 4 brand new groups in 4 days from now.
>

Rec.photo.digital will remain.. I might browse the DSLR group..
but I don't really care about the other groups so to me, it's a non-issue.

It will certainly take longer than 4 days to get the groups up and running
worldwide.. All of the thousands of independentely owned and administered news
providers will have to get on track and add the groups individually.

You can't just make up a control message and create groups on a worldwide scale
like you could years ago. Scant few news providers honor these anymore. In many
cases it's up to the individual subscriber to ask that groups be added or removed
and it will only occur if their news provider gives it the OK.

Roland Karlsson <> wrote:
> Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?

No. All the announcements and RFDs were posted here. A good portion of
the discussion was posted here. It's difficult to understand how you could
completely miss it, unless you haven't read this group in the past several
months.

On the other hand, the simple fact that you managed to miss this process,
which was posted in this group and which went on for several months, is an
extremely good argument in favor of creating the new groups. It points
out very well indeed how difficult it has become to follow this group.
There are quite a few people (some of whom I even know) who want to read
this group but have given up on it because it is impossible to keep up
with.

You're a regular here, whose name I recognize, and yet you clearly are
not able to keep up with this group. Topic splitting is a good thing,
and is necessary in this case.
> Did you know that two of the groups are called zlr and point+shoot?
>
> Do you know what a zlr is?
>
> Do you really know what a point+shoot is?

There was a very long discussion on exactly this point. The only outcome
was that pretty much everyone agreed that those names are not very good,
but no one was able to put forth any better suggestions, simply because
those names are what we have and no one has invented any others.
> In what group are you planning to post printing and editing things?
>
> And where are you going to discuss different technology stuff, e.g.
> about sensors and anti shake and flash memory?

Those things seem like things that would be entirely appropriate for
this very group.

Guest

Kibo informs me that schuetzen - RKBA! <> stated that:
>Roland Karlsson wrote:
>
>>
>>OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
>>seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?
>
>big deal, if you had read the newsgroup at all during the last 30 days you would
>have had two chances to vote and there was about 3 months of discussion before
>that.
>I voted against it and they voted to split it up.

It was only pointed out about a hundred times in news.groups that RPD is
not being 'split'. This group will still exist after the new groups are
created, the charter won't be changing, & people can still keep on
discussing the same stuff here that they always have.
>BUT, this is not an elist or an online forum. they cannot force structure or
>subject constraints here. again, big Whoop! I will keep on discussing anything
>and everthing in rpd with no change.

Sure, go ahead. Nobody's trying to stop you, (or anyone else who feels
the same way), from doing exactly that.
>just ignore the voting and go on. I expect that nearly everyone will eventually
>come back to the ACTIVE NG which those split offs are not going to be ....

Personally, I think that three of the new groups will die from lack of
interest, but that the DSLR group will slowly pick up speed over the
next 3-6 months.

Woodchuck Bill <> wrote in
news:Xns958ABE9257455bswr607h4@130.133.1.4:
>> As far as I know rpd will continue to exist - it's just that they
>> will add four new groups, which you are free to ignore. And no, I do
>> not know what a zlr is.
>
> The cameras in your sig block are ZLRs.
>

No - actually they are not. ZLR means SLR without
interchangable lenses. Good - you have just created
a group that you don't understand yourself what it
means.

The 5060 and the 8080 and lots of other x0y0 Oly
cameras are called point+shoot by some. But not
by all - personally I don't know what to call them.
Digital compact cameras maybe.

Made some statisics over the last threads, tried
to categorize them. DSLR seem to be the only new group
that will receive any posts. OK - the P&S category is so
vague (everyone has his own definition) so it might be
more there.

Roland Karlsson <> wrote in
news:Xns958BA14CBB11klotjohan@130.133.1.4:
> No - actually they are not. ZLR means SLR without
> interchangable lenses. Good - you have just created
> a group that you don't understand yourself what it
> means.

Wrong. A ZLR can be an SLR with a fixed lens, such as the Oly E20, or a
non-SLR that is "SLR-like".

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