And now to throw another new flavor into the mix I got my quad of "Mullard" El34's today from Tube Depot and promptly put them in. On first listen a slightly warmer, less forward presentation than either the JJ's or EH's. Not bad at all. As with all of these varieties the price is right so no harm no foul in trying them out and having them around in case of a blow out. Will report back after some mileage is put on them. Have you guys tried the Mullards?

Both JJs sound good, and the differences in my system are not huge, but definitely notable. The cryoset JJs are more refined with more black, smoother, more open, tighter bass, more ambient details, more saturated sound stage. The raw are softer with a more fuzed together sound, a little more edgy, though the edge to me is somewhat tempered by the distortions (???) the cryoset process removes. They seem a little more forgiving and warmer to me, but I think they are just less refined. I like the the raw ones, but personally, I keep wanting the cryos after I stick in the raw ones in.

Curious to know how many of you broke the torii in with the shipped tubes versus those who tube rolled immediately after receiving the amp. I am going to be receiving the amp in the next couple weeks and haven't decided the route to take. I have some paired amperex bugle boys 6dj8, cryo'd quad set of mullard el34, nos tesla 6922, couple new jj's and a couple random nos rectifier tubes around. Patience is not a virtue of mine so would appreciate any and all comments/advice.

I changed the rectifiers and input tubes right off, knowing from my previous amp that I liked the 50's RCA 5U4G-ST's over the Rubys, and I can't recall the inputs...maybe bugle boys or cryoset 6N23Ps. This tube preference was corroborated by comparing these tubes in the Torii, but my previous SE34I+ was family sound-wise.

Then since I had bass issues with the Torii's introduction to my system/room, I started playing with OB3 and OC3 Voltage Regulators and some 5AR4/GZ34 pretty fast. More room treatment, speaker adjustments, and very specific EQ in computer were bigger solutions for this, but I am glad I got these other tubes because they helped at the time and also opened a lot of doors for tube exploration and discovery. Finally (with lots of tubes of all types in the cupboard) fine-tuned synergy with various tube combinations is a lot of fun for me.

The JJ 6AC7 in my system/room took a long time to show what they were really about and to me were worth the wait. I prefer cryoset ones, but the "raw" ones sound quite good in my setup too.

Unless you have some system room incompatibility, you will be hearing great sound from the start, but you will also be burning in the amp internals, so it may be that broken in tubes could possibly help you get what you like during the breakin. Easy enough to find out. I always do whatever I can to just love the sound, be it cable or tube rolling, speaker placement, or whatever. It is so easy to roll if you choose to.

Then there are the bass and treble knobs, and the bias and impedance switches. So on the other hand, the amp is voiced well and there may be some merit to burning everything in at once as you get to know the amp.

I don't know what your old amp was, but I think the Torii is so revealing that breakin does not suck, but it is a notable deal in serious listening mode. In my system, everything perceptibly matters, especially after 200-300 hours on the stock amp. So if you do roll, I think it is relevant to consider that the sound you get from the tubes you use will change some after the amp and/or tubes burn in fully, so a subtle like or dislike now may become a different thing in several months. And this becomes even more relevant after finding system/room synergy with cables and gear. At this point, my system synergy is so complete that it will sound great with any decent tube given the right combination.

I just go for the best I can toward my personal tastes and room. But I have been called a tweaker.

My experience is very similar to will's and I thank him for his detailed response.

I broke mine in with the stock tubes with the exception of the Ruby rectifiers, I've a long history of disliking those so I put in RCA brand ones that I knew had worked well in my Integrated (like will I owned that amp before a Torii) and my Torii Mk II.

Besides the Rubys I believe that the stock tubes are a good choice and a good way to get a handle on the "basic sound" of the amp. But there's no reason to not start with your own choice of compatible tubes, as long as you keep in mind as will pointed out that there will be a change in sound as the amp and tubes season. I think this amp gets better and better as time goes by, and the owner understands how to tailor it to his own taste and listening material.

Thanks guys I am really getting excited/ slightly anxious...I am moving from solid state to tube so all of your advice is really helpful. I am also going to be breaking in Zen Styx and have ERR's and the CSP2+ preamp on order. I have been saving up for a while and I want to get full enjoyment along with the full understanding of what and how I am doing it.Thanks again.

These are going to be good tubes in the Mk III based on my experience; I used a pair of similar vintage in my Integrated and then in my Torii for some time. Will have a darker, punchier sound than the stock tubes. In my experience the fifties and sixties share a family sound. The fifties may be a bit more revealing of fine detail than the sixties of tubes I've had, which may or may not be a good thing. . . .

I agree with Lon's assessment. I have some RCAs that look just like these, and they are the darkest of my Rectifiers, of which I have many. Last I listened, these were also my least favorite, though I should try them again.

I tend to like the inner detail and spaciousness from the tall bottle 5U4G-B shape. May be coincidence, but all that I have share this quality in different ways. And there is something about those 40s and 50s tubes too, though I really like some later ones as well.

So if these are a little dark, you might check ebay for some tall bottles. Haven't checked lately, but I bought a bunch over time very inexpensively. And actually, the Rectifier for me seems to be a primary rolling tube these days for fine tuning.

Lately I am enjoying some 50s Svetlana Winged C 5U4G-STs, tubes I did not like at first, even after quite a few hours of burnin. I think it is synergy with the set I am using, but also, I think mine were actually new tubes and they took a while to clarify and balance (I guess 70-80 hours).

Thanks for sharing will. I'm not looking for dark (just came from there). I'm looking for something to take a bit of the edge off. The amp has around 500 hours on it. Stock tubes, except for Treasures and it has the VCAPS.

Seems like you are over the edge on the Treasure burnin, and maybe over the hard part of the Vcaps by most reports, but I think a range of 5U4Gs is not a bad idea, broken in caps or not. But then I am a tube roller.

A lot of tubes will soften the edge a bit. Guessing the RCAs you have are doing that??? Question being, is it too far for your tastes...too dark and/or too much density? Do you like them, or how would you change them if you could?

I'm not really interested in tube rolling at the present time, however I do want to swap out the stock Rubys. The RCA's appear to be most popular, so I'm just trying to decide on which model/vintage and a recommended place to buy.

Or if you don't have the RCA reference, would less edgy than the Rubys be your only criteria... Like would you prefer warmth, or neutrality...Some Raytheon and Tungsols have some really nice smooth, warmth without detail sacrifice.

My idea of "warmth" is having a darker thing happening compared to "neutral" but with natural and smooth detail to allow an inner spaciousness and texture. Warm feeling without leaving a sense of dark/restricted/ closed.

I am listening to Ruby's now with some quite warm early 60's Amperex 6922 SQs, and it sounds great to me, the Ruby's bringing in some nice openness to these inputs that tend a little to heavy warmth for me.

I don't have any typical tall bottle RCA's, but have found tall bottles less dark/more open than short. It is possible this is based somewhat on the coincidence of the individual tubes I have, but I definitely see this pattern in my rectifiers. The tall RCA 5U4GB's I do have, I believe may be from the early 50s. They are extra tall with the internals are like RCA 5U4G-STs. These tubes are open, extended, smooth, and have a lot of finesse. They are on the brighter side of the range, but not as bright seeming as the Ruby...being notably smoother with this tube set.

I see no reason to pay high for rectifiers if you can find what you want on Ebay. And if the tubes test good and match, I don't care if they are NOS, in fact being glad to have them broken in. I do look carefully to see that they are the same construction...same getters, bottles, plates...etc.

Anyway, if you give me a good description of how you would change the Ruby, I can suggest some tubes that I think would go there.

"My idea of "warmth" is having a darker thing happening compared to "neutral" but with natural and smooth detail to allow an inner spaciousness and texture. Warm feeling without leaving a sense of dark/restricted/ closed".

I just moved from a vintage Scott 299, which is quite dark. The Torii is quite different and I am learning to love it with each play. That being said, I listen to quite a bit of classic rock and find the amp to be a bit bright at volume for those types of recordings, so I guess I'm looking for a bit of warmth. I'm not interested in tube rolling at the moment, but would like to replace the Rubys and let the amp continue to break-in...if that makes sense.

Being cheap, and offering different tonal characters, I think you might do well to pick up both of these. They are not exactly like the tubes I have but quite close in construction and the same companies. I suspect (hopefully!@#$%^&*) close enough to anticipate similar sound. I think the Raytheon will be warm but rich, and the Sylvania more open like the Ruby, but more refined....a bit warmer, richer, and smoother. The 3rd link, the Tungsol is closer to the Raytheon, on the warmer side, another good looking tube.

My system/room and ears, and synergy between tubes is real and can create some anomalies, but I think these will chill down the edge you are experiencing.

Thanks for taking the time will. I'm familiar with all 3 auctions. I've been hunting and just trying to decide which way to go and your feedback is a great help. It's a fun and interesting hobby. I'm learning quickly that the same model tube can sound completely different in the same model amp, depending on tube mix, listening room, etc, etc, etc. I'm starting to understand why people tube roll. It's about experimenting and finding the mix/combination that is to one's liking. Cheers

Yes I think that is the tube rolling thing...it gives you a way to fine-tune to your tastes within the givens of your system/room.

But I think there is comparative reality. If we both have MK IIIs...then comparing the nature of one particular tube within one tube type, with another tube of the same type...you can get relatively clear about the attributes of those tubes, and how the tube's characters compare. That is if you keep a baseline of all other tubes, adjustments and the rest being left the same during the comparison.

I hope you find something that sounds good to you. It is a lot of fun!

I haven't compared GE in that tube type. I have GE 5Y3GT and OA3 tubes, and they have a muscular, slightly recessed high frequency sound, less open than RCA and Sylvania that I have to compare in those types.

Hipfan, I hope the Sylvainias do what you wanted. The reason I recommended getting both those and the Raytheon was that they were both cheap, and also nice revealing tubes...the Sylvania in the direction you wanted, but likely closer to the Ruby, and the Raytheon further tending to the warm. And since semantics a is a wildcard (as well as vintage and construction of the tubes), between them I figured you would likely get a fit, while having good tubes of different character you could roll if you get into that.

The ST thing is tricky, and I have not researched the real story, but I think a lot of them are made by the same people with different labels. What I find is that plate width (the inner T-part of the plate the wires goes through can be wider or narrower), whether they have an additional pair wires between the plates...and perhaps mica shape..These appear to indicate vintage, but most importantly, variations in sound.

All my STs have ribbed black plates, and I am guessing some are made by RCA (labeled Westinghouse and RCA), and one pair with the additional internal wires (labelled Raytheon and Sylvania) made by Sylvania or Raytheon???? or are they just earlier vintage RCAs????.

For mine the getter difference seems to have less sound effect than plate/mica combo...which I can't differentiate since mine have matched plate and mica structures for each of the pairs, and each pair is different from the others.

With one pair, the one with additional, central internal wires, and with medium width central part of the plate T, and with round top mica (no spurs), is the most open...closest to the Ruby sound but I think smoother. The pair with a thinner internal T part of the plates, and with round top mica with spurs, is in the middle sound-wise. And the widest central plate T (where the T "base" extends past the vertical wires that go up the plates) and with rectangular/spurred top mica, are the most liquid/warm. I can't say one is better than another, just different.

The one thing I would do, is be sure the tubes you choose are identical in structure.

I am glad you got hold of the Raytheons too. Better chances of finding synergy with two choices. Looking forward to your impressions. Lucky for us, the MkIII's adjustment switches and knobs make fine tuning to a tube easy.

Finally home from vacation and my tubes were here when I arrived. This is my first time tube rolling and I have a question. The stock Rubys have 4 pins. The Sylvania's have 8 pins and the Raytheon's have 5 pins. Is there a reason for this?

I don't know the answer to your question. Of my 5U4G-ST and 5U4GB, by far most have 5 pins. My ruby's have 4 like yours. And my current fav, some 60's Sylvania 5U4GB have 8. I have some 50's and 70's Sylvanias with 5.

my opinion so far; tesla nos and new 6922 last place.. slightly dull but tolerableelectro harmonix 6922 (shipped w)..clear concise, little thinner than thephillips ECG6922 .. great tubes lots of color and full soundtelefunken 7dj8's nos.. my fav. tight, clear, deep sound...very German precise and on point... very detailed. of course they were also the most expensivethis is fun

One thing I have noticed is that there are so many years and models of tubes from a given company, that though they do seem to tend toward general characteristic qualities, they are quite variable within that. For example, I have a pair of early 60s Telsa 6922 that sound really good to me, open and detailed but also rich, and some from the 70s I really can't get excited about.

And Phillips tubes for example, they may be made at different factories in different countries. Then there are Zaerix that are made by the big companies for Zaerix, sometimes England, Holland, Russia....whatever.

Since you like the Telefunken 7DJ8, I suspect you will like other 7DJ8s too. I think they really work well with the Torii. I must have 7 or 8 pair (including some Telefunkens) and I like them all...real, textural, and big without being too pushy. The Telefunkens are probably the most edge defined, or precise as you put it...perhaps a bit too much so for me depending on what tubes they are with. But now, with some big, warm and articulate 60s Sylvania 5U4GBs, and some warmish Amperex OA3s, they sound very good. All 7DJ8s I have excel at that indescribable "in the room" quality.

Hi I'm new to the forum and in need of some help. I've had my Torii for a few months now. I recently tried the RCA 5U4GB tall bottle as talked about on this thread. The thing is the base of the tube is too wide and the screws that hold the socket in place on the amp prevent it from completely seating and so the tubes don come on. Has anyone had this issue and what can be done about it? Thanks.

I think the easiest solution would be to gently notch out the plastic edges of the base by the screws. This had been done (not by me) on a rectifier in my Select amp years ago.Allowed the tube to seat and connect.

I think most of my rectifiers rest on the screws to various degrees and work...including the stock Rubys. Since the contacts in the sockets start working pretty soon after you start the pins into the socket (I just pulled the Sylvania 5U4GB I am using out so you could see a good 1/8-3/16" of the pins from the side, and they worked) I am wondering if your issue is something else.

Not knowing how familiar you are with tubes....I guess the RCAs have the socket guides intact? Do the soldered pin tips look smooth and without cracks? Have you cleaned the pins? A couple thoughts.

Thanks guys for the suggestions. I got the tubes from a reputable dealer (tc tubes) I'll check to see if there maybe a problem with the tubes because I don't know if it should be able to come on 98% seated. If the tubes are fine, I may have to shave the edges.

As a result of having to change my el34's from jj's to some cryo'd mullards i wasn't crazy how my telefunken 7dj8's sounded with them. Too bright and up front. Changed to a pair of national's 7dj8's also cryo'd and the sound is off the charts...always a good thing to have tubes to roll. I'm becoming fascinated with tube interaction, the synergy or lack of between them. This is the first time I've had cyro'd tubes in the power and input positions and wonder how much it helps cuz it sounds so damn good.

I have only checked one tube...JJ6CA7 cryo'd and not, and the cryo did help ...more open clarity, more space, more black, better dynamics...the lot. But then I believe Ron at Cryoset asks for tubes from JJ at a certain high standard...this probably helps too...I am guessing that those Mullards with the Nationals synergy for you is just good, and they would sound good not cryo'd. But with cryo, you are pulling more from the tubes than without. When I was testing the JJs, after getting used to non-cryo'd, which sounded quite good, and switching to the Cryo...if I recall correctly, the difference was pretty notable, and to my tastes better, but may not be better to all...the non-cryo tubes were softer and fuzzier by a little, perhaps more tolerant...less defined.

I agree it is good to have tubes to roll. I never got the Telefunken 7DJ8s I have to really click in except with a fair bit of work at tube synergy. I find them a little demanding in this way.

i agree i think with the right tubes the telefunken 7dj8's would be benign. i need to come to the realization that any tube needs time... a lot of time. patience is a virtue i have yet to attain. I freakin love the cryo'd set of input (nationals 7dj8) and power tubes(mullard el34) with raytheon ob3a recs, stock oa3's with nos rca's. found something special that i'm gonna try to stick with...ha ha

Sounds like a very good very good place to hang. I have the rest of the tubes you use, so can imagine that your sound is really good, but I have never gone there on the Mullard EL34...so I wonder if you would give us your impressions of the cryo'd Mullards compared to the JJ6CA7???

Had no inclination of taking out the jj6ca7's until I had a volume issue in one channel(that Lon helped me fix), loved the sound. When I had first tried out the cryo'd mullards a couple months ago they seemed way too harsh for me with my telefunken 7dj8's and took them out after a few hours (10). With no other option but my mullards i put them in and they still seemed a little harsh. I switched to the national's and the sound was tremendous out of the gate, only thing i adjusted on the torii was the treble...now 50+ hours in it's sensational. I just listened to the new Iris DeMent, Bob Dylan and Van Morrison cd's first with another set of jj 6ca7's and then with my mullards. I can unequivocally say that it's the Mullards hands down. The instruments are clearer, from the vibration of the cymbals to the guitar riffs, a much fuller and complete sound. I can feel the emotion in the artists voice, the painful truth in Iris, the gruffness of Bob and the beautiful arrangements of Van's tunes.Everything seems to float yet stay tethered to the original representation meant by the artist...as Steve said in his description of the Torii you don't listen to the music you float in it...I am truly getting that!I think the cryo'd synergy between the two really helps as well.just my two cents.

Thanks JD. Synergy between tubes, or lack there of, is an amazing thing. The JJs in my room do tend to do pretty well with upfront, more defined midrange inputs like the Telefunken 7DJ8. And the Nationals do seem to have good balance, and good textural warmth with nice detail balance too. So what you are hearing makes sense to me. Sounds like a really engaging sound! Isn't it awesome....Thanks for the thoughts on the Mullards with the Nationals.