Gothic 3 - Review @ Dead Alfs

November 21st, 2006, 19:14

The "Dead Alfs" site has reviewed Gothic III and scored it an anemic 55%:

I wish I could apologise for my apparently harsh views by holding up the fact I&#39;m not a normal RPG fan as an excuse for this rant. But in fact it&#39;s only a reason to think that Oblivion was a one-off and for the casual RPG-er, the only choice.

If the RPG elements are your main requirement, the management of your skills, abilities and inventory, then this game is as good as any other, perhaps. My only regret is that the trailers for this made it appear more like an experience than the chore that it is, and I allowed my marketing cynicism to fall for a moment and believed it.

The first game segment does make them out to be savage nasty beasties that would require a brave and bold adventurer to slay. Perhaps that was a rogue group and all the others just want to be left alone huddled round their campfires to laugh at me as I run screaming past them being pursued by hungry wolves.

"NPCs. Sigh. I've patched the game. Yet I can still walk very very close to a gaggle of Orcs without them doing anything to me. Perhaps I've discovered an invisibility item? No. Perhaps I'm creeping? No. Then what is going on? Was the AI built to only kick in when combat starts?…Maybe they are dumb, and I've missed the point. Again, it's down to expectations."

Reviewers. Sigh. He honestly seem to have no clue whatsoever as to why the "monsters" don't attack him on sight…

Sigh. Another inaccurate and subjective review. I suppose it could be of worth to those players that have exactly the same views as him, but it really sounds like he only played for an hour and them wrote this review.

Again a pointless comparisons to Oblivion. Note now, that not all comparisons to Oblivion are pointless, but he doesn't seem to "get" the world of Gothic. He's reviewing a game that is clearly in a genre that is not for him. Not a living, breathing world? It's more so than Oblivion, in any case. He does not even question how it may be that there are Orcs that are not immediately interested in decapitating him. What sort of a role-player is he?

Exactly, the hack-and-slash sort that expects rows of enemies to just line up for him to slaughter.

Yes to him an Orc is a monster and should attack. He is reviewing it from the perspective of the casual, average gameplayer, not the experienced RPG'er. Those folk all worship Oblivion since its so accessible. The same reason most RPG'ers have problems with Oblivion.

You're never going to get a sparkling review out of people who only normally like FPS's/action games.

I have read the review and imo, Oblivion's world doesn't go on, while you're not there. My gaming experience playing Oblivion was that the NPCs just stand around waiting for your PC to come to them.

In Gothic 3, in one of my first play throughs (of the demo, but still… )
I wandered down a bit to the the beach. I think maybe I've spent 5-6 minutes down there. However, when I went back to the town, the guy, I was supposed to see had gone. Very nice - and also an example of how G3's world changes with you and how actions do have consequences in Gothic 3.

The reviewer at dead alf's site doesn't seem to understand the underlying premise for Gothic 3, the war between the Orcs & the Humans. And that your avatar, the nameless one, needs to find a place in this world, maybe even balancing things out a bit or so.

I'd agree with on one point, though: The combat is not that great. I have fought enemies with NPCs following me along, always worrying that I'm going to hurt my allied friend(s). Luckily, they seem to have decent AI-scripts so they are able to get out of harm's way.

However, I do feel when a game lets you play mainly as one character (although allowing some followers) that the coombat in the game should make you feel more in control of what is going on, in the combat, than G3 does. And in this, Oblivion's combat far exceeds that of G3's, imo.

In all other things, imo, G3 is far superior to Oblivion, from G3''s storyline to its
roughfelt immersive world as well as a world in where actions and choices really does matter.

Last edited by aries100; November 21st, 2006 at 19:59.
Reason: spelling

Also, when you have followers, their name will be blue, and you can't harm them no matter what you do. You can't even target them with spells or weapons. If they are simply friendly support or someone guiding you to somewhere, their name will be green, and you can hurt them by misstake.

Well, he obviously missed the point, but it is he who is dumb. I fail to understand the point of having a casual non-RPG fan review a hardcore RPG against non-hardcore RPG standards. I mean … when I reviewed 'Unfabulous' for the GBA, should I have said "I know it is made for tween girls, but I prefer FPS and hardcore RPG so I'll review from that perspective"? Idiocy!

"NPCs. Sigh. I've patched the game. Yet I can still walk very very close to a gaggle of Orcs without them doing anything to me. Perhaps I've discovered an invisibility item? No. Perhaps I'm creeping? No. Then what is going on? Was the AI built to only kick in when combat starts?…Maybe they are dumb, and I've missed the point. Again, it's down to expectations."

I'm speechless. I rarely feel like I and the reviewer live in a whole different world.

AI

I have read the review and imo, Oblivion's world doesn't go on, while you're not there. My gaming experience playing Oblivion was that the NPCs just stand around waiting for your PC to come to them.

Not even close. Follow any major npc and they'll have a whole schedule.
Let's take Thoronir, because you meet him quickly. Thoronir opens his shop
at 8:15 and closes around 6. He then goes to a local place to eat, then
wanders around the garden district before meeting with a shady
character late at night. From there, it's off to home and bed. Once you
kill the shady character, Thornir no longer heads behind his shop late
at night.

Pretty decent scheduling, especially amongst plotline NPCs. Oblivion
has over 1500 NPCs and some of them aren't very complex.

I haven't played Gothic 3 yet so I can't really compare the depth of AI,
but Oblivion had very good AI. I didn't like the first two Gothics, but I'm
hoping that this game will be the first.

NPCs. Sigh. I've patched the game. Yet I can still walk very very close to a gaggle of Orcs without them doing anything to me. Perhaps I've discovered an invisibility item? No. Perhaps I'm creeping? No. Then what is going on?

Yep. As others here have already beat me to the punch… chalk up another example of 'hurry up and get a review out but don't bother playing the game for more than a few minutes.'

— If I'm right but there is no wife around to acknowledge it, am I still right?

Originally Posted by aries100
I wandered down a bit to the the beach. I think maybe I've spent 5-6 minutes down there. However, when I went back to the town, the guy, I was supposed to see had gone. Very nice

I wasn't sure if this was intentional or a bug. Are you certain this isn't a bug?

Nonetheless, I restarted my game and after talking to Lester high-tailed it back to the village to be sure to contact Deigo and the other guy who leads you to the rebel camp.

I was requried to restart, because as everybody already knows, skipping quests sends you straight to hell.

— If I'm right but there is no wife around to acknowledge it, am I still right?

Originally Posted by crpgnut
I haven't played Gothic 3 yet so I can't really compare the depth of AI, but Oblivion had very good AI. I didn't like the first two Gothics, but I'm
hoping that this game will be the first.

But that sort of scheduling was exactly what was in Gothic 2 - open shops, sweep out front, go to the pub, sleep, and so on. Heck, Bronco even urinated on the yard every morning at 8AM!

It wasn't that Oblivion didn't have it, but for the way it was given a 'name' and touted so highly … it was very underwhelming.

The whole point of my post about gothic 3 was to say that I really like the feel of this game. I feel that PB did do a fine job in giving the players (us) a world that (still) has that Gothic feeling to it, that kind of roughness and toughness.

You just know by looking at the gameplay, visuals etc. in the game that this is going to be a tough ride. In that manner, the graphics supports the gameplay and the story.
(in Oblivon, to me, it feels like the graphics are mostly there for show - somehow, imo, there just to glossy for my taste…however, I still enjoy the game….).

As for Oblivion's much hyped radiant AI, to me, at least, this isn't news or the next new thing. Back in the days of the old Might & Magic games, shops were also closed and opened at certain times, even banks had banking hours, and trainers were only available, iirc, at certain times as well. Stage Coaches and boatrides were available as well - for a price.

I agree that the whole Thoronir thing is pretty neat, (he has a fixed schedule to follow etc.), however this isn't a new thing either. Many people on the ESF forums have pointed out that some of the way old rpgs did have this as well.

My take on Oblivion's RAI schedule is that the people, npcs, seem just to stand still and talk amongst themselves about mudcrabs or something they have seen they have seen the other day. Sometimes they will talk about the death of the emperor,
but somehow seem oblivious to the fact that the emperor had died, unless some of them mentions that they are very concerned and so. And my biggest complaint is this: Gates to Hell are opening up in a city near you. No one actually seems to care.
They just go about their business as usual, talking about the latest rumors and more mudcrabs or slaugterfish. [On the other hand, most people lead dreary lives, following a fixed schedule and talk about rumors about their neighbours - if that the game I wanted to play, I will just play the greatest game there is. Life it self, IRL ].

My point about Oblivion's NPCs waiting for you: While they do have individual schedules and go to say eat lunch or go fishing or hunting pr go open up their shops each day, the quests they have for you is still there no matter how long you take to finish other quests. If you talk to someone and get a quest to go find something, then you can put off doing this to the till you 200+ hours in the game.
The NPC will still be waiting for you - so that you may return the item e.g.
[To be fair, a small number of quests actually do make you hurry, and a small number of quests have NPCs who can die, as well].

As for the guy hiking off, I don't know if it was bug. I don't think so because the inhabitans did go about re-building the city. To me, at least, this tells that time is of the essence is Gothic 3 —— and if you don't do anything about the quests, you'll be given, eventually time will run out. This is what I meant that actions and choices have consequences.

Originally Posted by aries100
As for the guy hiking off, I don't know if it was bug. I don't think so because the inhabitans did go about re-building the city. To me, at least, this tells that time is of the essence is Gothic 3 —— and if you don't do anything about the quests, you'll be given, eventually time will run out. This is what I meant that actions and choices have consequences.

Like you, Gothic 3, as did G1 & G2, really hit home with me… they give me that Ultima VII lovin feelin…

But with all the reports of the bugs in G3, which I'm sure most will eventually be squashed, sometimes you're left wondering, 'is that intentional? or is that a bug?' It's a little unnerving. I don't want to miss a quest and then go to hell when I die as a result.

— If I'm right but there is no wife around to acknowledge it, am I still right?

Originally Posted by JDR13
You call yourself an crpgnut, yet you didn't like the first 2 Gothics?

I love cRPGs but not ALL of them. I have not cared for any of the previous incarnations of Gothic and have no intention or desire to purchase Gothic 3. Call me a heretic but…meh…they just don't do it for me.

— A day. A silver urn of promise and hope. The least and most of all our lives. ~Thrity Umrigar, Bombay Time

Review: The opening paragraph was a dead give away as to the reviewer experience and preference to "RPG"s as he only references Oblivion as his higher, apparently high point, RPG experience. That is if you can truly classify Oblivion as an RPG, at best I find it to be an action-"RPG" (which aren't RPGs either) or more likely an action-adventure sandbox.

Can't possibly be worse than the cheesy American voice "acting" in Oblivion. And, yes, I use the term acting extremely loosely here as it is the WORST voice acting that I have EVER heard in a game, including some no-budget indie games.

Oblivion in general: What finally killed Oblivion for me after observing all of it's wide variety of other foibles and failures was having my PC stand near a window in a town one, knowing subconsciously, that I couldn't open the window and enter the building, or climb the nearby buttress to a 2nd story window, while hearing two of the moron scripted NPCs babble about mud crab for what felt like the 10 billionth time. IIRC I rarely ever heard PCs talk about anything other than mud crabs, and whats worse these people weren't even scripted to leave town XYZ to possibly run into the damned things. Oblivion now serves a more useful purpose as a system benchmarking/stress testing tool…

Gothic 3: I still have high hopes for that game… even though it's another action-adventure…