hello all OSU! I'm a 2nd kyu in Yoshinkan Aikido. Has anyone ever used Aikido on a well Trained BJJ man? it disturbes me that they think they and many people are the greatest, How does Aikido stand up? Real answers please not the traditional Bla Bla

Steven

02-16-2007 05:34 PM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Matt --

This topic has been beat to death. Did you try using the search function for this topic?

That would require me to fight myself and I would probably explode due to the confusion and chaos it caused my brain.

FWIW, there are many of us on Aikiweb that study both aikido and BJJ, do a search as has been recomemnded, we have had many discussions and if you read through the threads you will get most of your questions answered.

If you have a particular question though concerning BJJ and Aikido and how the apply, differ, intersect...there are many that will offer insight from our experiences.

Kevin Leavitt

02-17-2007 04:08 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

You want a real answer? go to a BJJ dojo and see how you fair against one of their well trained students. BTW, they consider a well trained student to be a purple, brown, or black belt...but roll with a blue belt just the same.

Then come back and tell us of your experiences and impressions. Then we will have something to talk about!

Step One: will find is two different paradigms in study that don't superficially match up well. Inevitiably you will find yourself playing by their rules the way BJJ is trained, is more conducive for non-compliant, safe, alive training. It that situation, most aikido people will find themselves being owned.

Step two, Dissonance sets in. You then throw the multiple opponent, no rules, no weapons, card on the table and in your mind you dismiss all the new experiences of getting owned as not being realistic or very smart.

Step three: you come back to aikiweb and say that they are playing with rules, you could not use groin shots, eye gouges, atemi, or weapons, and that it would change things if you could.

Both BJJ and AIkido have good elements in them. Most find that they work very, very well together.

Look through the search feature, or I assume you have already been to other websites that debate this topic so you have seen all the arguments.

I recommend looking past them, and stop the comparison.

the core question is this: What do you want to be able to do with your training?

Aikido and BJJ offer some very good things.

Aristeia

02-17-2007 06:07 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

Step two, Dissonance sets in. You then throw the multiple opponent, no rules, no weapons, card on the table and in your mind you dismiss all the new experiences of getting owned as not being realistic or very smart.

As always Kevin has omoplata'd the correct. The point I quoted reminds me of a story my BJJ coach John Will tells. His first night on a BJJ mat (Rorions school ims). He's a very experienced martial artist, multiple black belts, and editor of Blitz magazine. So he figures he's pretty good. Then he spends the night getting his ass handed to him up and down the mat by a tiny woman. This makes him unhappy and he spends the evening seething in his hotel room. He gets to the inevitable "The rules made me play their game, Why if I'd been allowed to eye gouge there's no way she would have choked me out 10 times..."

And then he stops.

And says to himself

"hang on- is this what my 20 years of martial arts training has come down to? Eye gouge or get choked out? Is that it, is that all I've got?"

So he makes the decision to start training and eventually becomes one of the first non Brazillian black belts in the art.

I like the story alot. The shift from performing every piece of mental gymnastics you can think of to defend your paradigm to suddenly being open realising there is actually something to learn here is something that has much wider application...

statisticool

02-17-2007 07:23 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:

Matt Sloan wrote:

hello all OSU! I'm a 2nd kyu in Yoshinkan Aikido. Has anyone ever used Aikido on a well Trained BJJ man? it disturbes me that they think they and many people are the greatest, How does Aikido stand up? Real answers please not the traditional Bla Bla

One of the most common questions I am asked when I travel and teach is this. . ."what do I need to work on?" As a coach you will need to get used to being asked this, it is part of the job.

The answer to this question will of course be individualized to a great degree. But over the last ten years of Coaching BJJ I have also become aware of certain patterns that most athletes will follow in one form or another. It's the journey all BJJ players undertake, and to explain my own personal vision of it as a Coach and teacher I often use a map analogy.

Imagine for a moment that the Art and science of BJJ is all diagramed out on a large map. Your job as a teacher and Coach is to help the student to first be able to read and navigate on the map, and then to begin to explore the map. As the individual becomes more adept at traveling the territory of the map, they begin to gain greater degrees of performance skill and understanding of the Art of BJJ...

A good read and one relevant to any martial art I think, not just BJJ.

RoyK

02-17-2007 08:20 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

I studied for a short time under a sandan Yoshinkan instructor who felt BJJ is complementary to his Aikdio, and now he teaches them both, sometimes separately and sometimes mashed up together. It's interesting to see how a technique can start in the aikido domain and end in the BJJ domain.

What I have seen from the Gracie video's is that when a Trained martial artist is up against one of the Gracies, they seem to lose all of their teachings. One video I saw was BJJ against a Hapkido black belt. Gracie rushed in with his arm extended, and the dude runs backwards. I would have pivoted away ended up at the side and thrown with kotegaeshi or Hiji. I think in our dojo's we should train more against such attacks. BJJ is a fast growing sport, we need to revise the way we train, Start defending against grappling and punches, and stop focusing on wrist grabs.

Jorge Garcia

02-17-2007 09:48 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:

Matt Sloan wrote:

BJJ is a fast growing sport, we need to revise the way we train, Start defending against grappling and punches, and stop focusing on wrist grabs.

Matt,
It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training.
I recommend reading the book,The Spirit of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, son of the Founder.
I will provide you a free study guide if you send me a pm with your email address.
Best wishes,
Jorge

shidoin

02-17-2007 09:55 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

I do have the book! I'm not sure how to pm u? I'm new to this site could you please guide me.

Mark Freeman

02-17-2007 10:31 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:

Matt Sloan wrote:

I do have the book! I'm not sure how to pm u? I'm new to this site could you please guide me.

Just click on the members name, and then on send message. That will get you there.

regards

Mark

Kevin Leavitt

02-17-2007 10:31 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

I love that hapikido vs bjj video. Gracies in Action are very interesting to watch. I am always laughing at Rorion narrating it. Very propagantistic, but true at the same time.

I'd counter your argument and say aikido does not need to change and start practicing for these things, if it did, then it would evolve in to BJJ quite rapidily.

It is a different range and focus of training.

You might need to start training that way though. If it is important to you, don't waste time trying to figure out how to do it on your own, find a good BJJ dojo and do what they have already figured out. Why reinvent the wheel?

The way we train aikido teaches some very valuable lessons that I fear would be lost if we changed the focus too much.

Hehehe....yeah I know what you mean about pivoting etc. You might been able to do it, then again, those Gracies are pretty good at what they do and would probably just set you up differently. In the end, unless you are going to run off the mat, which is not an option if the goal is to stay and fight...they are going to get you!

Watch the first UFCs with Royce, remember, they could do all that too, and kick and punch and he still closed the distance and took control.

DonMagee

02-17-2007 11:42 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

This kind of ties in to my thread on non traditional training methods.

I do not believe that aikido should start to train bjj techniques or even how to deal with a 'bjj guy'. I do believe that aikido schools should try to incorporate more alive drills. Drills that give uke a goal he will see though to either his success of demise. This will focus nage to become more creative, see the openings much sooner, and adapt to changing situations. It will cause uke to learn what does and does not work, and thus he will get better at attacking, so nage will have to get better with dealing with him.

This is what makes judo and bjj so uplifting in such a short period of time. As I get better at an armbar from the guard, everyone in my club gets better at defending against it, thus forcing me to learn new things, or get even better at my armbar. Its a positive uplifting circle.

As for aikido vs bjj, Unless you have a lot of hard sparing experience, maybe judo or wrestling, or full contact karate. You will not be prepared for what happens. However, I think it will be good for you in the long run to still give it a try. Just don't take it personal if you are unsuccessful. Just figure out what you can improve on, and improve on it.

Roy Dean

02-17-2007 11:43 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Matt,

I spent many years in Aikido and am also a well trained BJJ man. I know precisely the questioning and curiosity the videos trigger in you as an Aikidoka. I went through that same process.

But questioning wasn't enough for me, I needed experiential truth. And I got it. So know that my words come through experience, what I have found through many hours on the mat.

I can list reasons why this technique might work or that wouldn't work, and others may disagree. So the way to shortcut all of that is to try it out. Do it. Feel it. Have the experience, then compartmentalize it in your mind. It's easy to get side stepped from reality if you trust too much in mental reflections like words rather than what the martial experience ACTUALLY IS.

Aikido and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu share many of the same principles. Turn from resistance, don't oppose force on force, yield and redirect. The techniques are not identical, but achieve similar effects for the affected joints (ikkyo= armlock, kimura/omoplata= shihonage). The ukemi of Aikido and ground movements of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are interlinked. Aikido really teaches you how to flow and be round when approaching movement on the ground. How to be a ball rather than a cube. The movement parallels are there, but then again, I think they're present in almost all jujutsu styles.

Questions such as yours motivated me to begin the E-Journal of Jujutsu (EJJ). In this first issue, Bruce Bookman, Aikido 6th dan and brown belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu discusses the connections and similarities between the two arts. I highly encourage you to read his article.

I also encourage you to experience Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for yourself. It is a modern budo, and would only enhance your Aikido skills.

But most importantly, it's incredibly fun!

Roy Dean

Kevin Leavitt

02-17-2007 12:48 PM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Roy,

Still need to finish reading it, but I have enjoyed it so far. Excellent quality magazine, mature, experienced and insightful.

This is where I think we all need to be as martial artist and budoka. Thanks.

As someone wrote in another thread, I am amazed at how far we have evolved in the community since the early days of aikido-l listserv. Either that or my eyes are now open to something I never saw before.

shidoin

02-17-2007 06:03 PM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Thanks for the info Don! What is your opinion on the matter? will Aikido work against a BJJ man or not? I trained in Japanese Jujutsu for a few years and it was ok. The whole reason for switching to Aikido was because the movements of JJ seemed unnatural to me, But when I started Aikido it was like I was supposed to be there. I also hate ground fighting, it does not interest me at all, but I did gain skillis from my JJ training and I think that many Aikido movements can still be applied while on the ground I speak of Joint locks, locking the foot and knee, and trying to take uke off balance to gain control. But if it were a real fight, there are no rules, and I would turn to girl movements, bite, spit, pull hair, claw, and throw dirt in the eye, if that's what I had to do to save my butt.

shidoin

02-17-2007 07:11 PM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

sorry I mean Roy, a little A.D.D. thing I have goin on :freaky:

DonMagee

02-17-2007 07:52 PM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

I think aikido can work, the question I have to ask is if the person is prepared to deal with a trained sport fighter. I'd have to look at the persons physical shape, see how their cardio is, etc. Its a whole different world of training. Most aikidoka do not train in a manner that is going to prepare them for a confrontation with a well trained athlete. The biggest mistake I think an aikido person could do is try to grapple with a bjj guys. I would suggest striking and moving. Grabbing onto a bjj guy gives him power (at least that is how I feel when someone grabs me, that they are feeding me). So I would go for more throws and less attempts to joint lock or grab. You also have to remember that bjj guys, like wrestlers and judo guys, tipically have very good balance. They are also ok with taking a hard hit if that means they can drag you into their world. If you let that happen, then all is lost (unless you have trained submission grappling). But if you could manage to keep the bjj guy off balance, on his feet, and moving, the question comes do you have the cardio to wear him out. If you can do that, you can beat him.

Now the reverse side of this is that if you trained throws and submisson as 'hard' as bjj guys train their stuff, then you probably will be able to do it against a fully resisting oppoenet, and thus you stand a much better chance. Again, allow me to point to my drill thread in the technique area that I feel would help improve chances of using techniques in physical resistant encounters such as this.

Or of course you could get a fat, weak, out of shape, unskilled, bjjer. They do exist contrary to popular belief. Its just that if they stick with it, they usually don't' stay that way long.

So the question is not can aikido beat bjj. Its do you train in a way that will give you the tools needed to deal with the way that person trains. I have to say that for the average non sport fighter, the answer is no, because they do not train vigorously enough, or with the right training methods to deal with a person who trains the way a sport fighter trains. Of course add a little Matt Thornton into your training and the odds improve. It also helps if you were a bad mofo before you started training in martial arts.

So I say, go give it a try. That is what I did. See if what you know works against them. Some of them will even be willing to suspend some rules to help you. At that point, take stock in what worked and what didn't. Then go and figure out why you failed at the stuff that didn't. See what you can do to improve it, and how you can change your training to make you better. That doesn't mean switch to bjj if you get wrecked. It just means adjust how you train if dealing with a well trained athlete is important to you.

Aristeia

02-18-2007 01:04 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:

Matt Sloan wrote:

I think that many Aikido movements can still be applied while on the ground I speak of Joint locks, locking the foot and knee

Actually not so much. Going for "aikido" moves is often a poor choice. They are not going to work unless uke is seriously controlled which means
1. you've probably done a bunch of ground training to control them in the first place
2. there are better finishing options

I sometimes use Aikido moves (by which I mean finishing techs) on the BJJ mat - but it's usually a sure sign I'm just showing off.

Quote:

, and trying to take uke off balance to gain control.

That's more like it. Only thing is the way you do that while strategically very similar to Aikido is tactically quite different.

Quote:

But if it were a real fight, there are no rules, and I would turn to girl movements, bite, spit, pull hair, claw, and throw dirt in the eye, if that's what I had to do to save my butt.

I don't know about anyone else, but I always find this approach a little amusing. Because iften it comes from people who have spent alot of time training themselves in very sophisticated methods of defence and attack standing. But once you hit the ground that approach is going to go out the window for biting and spitting? If that's effective- why not just take that approach standing as well and stop training altogether?

Kevin Leavitt

02-18-2007 02:04 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

about once a month I get a new student who brings up the whole bite, scratch, gouge thing into the equation.

I say, okay, then I can do it too...right?

we then proceed to roll, slowly of course and i let them go down that path.

They quickly change their mind in a few seconds.

We forget that BJJ guys well play by the rules you establish....we have no issue with that. You want to do that, we will to. You want to stick, kick,...okay...i am game.

Those things cancel each other out, and the guy with the superior ground gain that can dominate and control is the guy that effectively makes use of those tools.

Matt I understand that you hate ground fighting and it may feel un-natural to you, however, if you consider this a viable threat and a fear that is important to conquer, then you owe it to yourself to learn it. You opponent will not care how you feel about it.

It was a very intimidating experience as a aikidoka the first time I went to the ground, I was a fish out of water and it was a huge hit to my ego to have to go back to ground zero.

2 years later, I love the ground. Like Don, I love to be grabbed now, I relish when you make contact with me.

I have learned to work in a tighter circle than aikido and I am learning now how to re-open back up that distance that I need to move again.

My advice is to learn ground grappling for what it is. Don't look at it as a complete answer to all fighting as it is not.

It is up to you to take your experiences and combine them into a game that works for you.

deepsoup

02-18-2007 04:58 AM

Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:

Roy Klein wrote:

I studied for a short time under a sandan Yoshinkan instructor who felt BJJ is complementary to his Aikdio, and now he teaches them both, sometimes separately and sometimes mashed up together. It's interesting to see how a technique can start in the aikido domain and end in the BJJ domain.

I think I've practiced briefly with the same guy; a few sessions at a UK Shodokan annual seminar thingy, Gadi Shorr and Alon Cohen were there as guest instructors. Excellent stuff, and as you say, no contradiction at all between the aikido and the BJJ.