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Author
Topic: Does anyone have the right to "out" you? (Read 5149 times)

Hi there, have not been here in a while, but thought I would ask the largest group of HIV folks I know of.

Background on me for a moment: I am HIV+/AIDS. I believe in FULL disclosure, even if I know the sex would be "safe".

I have had discussions with friends lately on the following question: "Do you (HIV NEG FOLKS) feel you have the right/responsibility to tell someone you are positive if it looks like you are going home with someone? Further complicated with, What if the perspective person is your (HIV NEG friend) friend?

I am troubled that 2 of my friends say they would "out" me in a heartbeat (not me personally, since am in a monogamous relationship and fully disclose to every Tom, Dick and Hairy).

Shouldn't a person's character mean anything? They bring up that folks (full disclosure's) may not disclose if they are drunk/doing drugs, inhibitions come down, hornyness takes over....

I have always felt it takes two to tango, it is up to both folks to play safe.

So how about you or your friends, should you "out" someones status to "save" another person's health?

Also I think you are confusing disclosure with safe sex. Plenty of HIV+ guys don't disclose and have safe sex.

Finally I've told enough friends that I am HIV+ and if one of them felt like he had to blab it to someone I'm interested in, I don't think I'd care so much, finally. The chips will fall where they will - I don't feel like I have complete control over what people say or do or think and I don't care really.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Personally can't think of a situation where I would tell another person's HIV status.

It is interesting to me how HIV gets it's own special category in some people's mind. Should I also tell a friend if I know someone has herpes? Genital warts? Erectile disfunction? Alcoholism? Bipolar disorder? An overbearing mother?

When I first read this my immediate thoughts were that no-one has the right to "out" someone, I was looking at it that if they were my friends they should know me well enough to know that I wouldn't put anyone at risk and if I was leaving with someone it wouldn't necessarily mean that I was going to jump into bed with them..

Then I flipped it and thought about the guy that infected me. If I saw him with someone then yes I would tell, even if it were a stranger. This is a man that knows his status and goes all out to infect another person. I don't go into the details of how I was infected, because of negative comments that i've seen here in the past. Last one was someone had said that it's an urban myth that people go around infecting many...not true. It's also not true that your status is kept confidential by health authorities, if your name comes up time and again they will make sure that the infected person knows that you knew your status.. they want them put away if possible, this is how I know that he was positive for many years before he infected me and I am one of many.

As a negative partner of a positive person, my opinion is that no one has the right to "out" anyone else. I agree with GSOgymrat-it's gossip. If people are going to bump uglies, then it is their responsibility to either play safe, ask the other person (s) their status, and go from their. I realize that people can lie about status, and that is why when screwing people we don't know, safe sex is important not just against HIV, but a lot of other complications that can arise.For what it's worth, I don't think that HIV positive people should worry if they are doing the "right" thing when it comes to disclosure, the right thing is different for different people and the right to disclose status is that of the HIV positive person, not the gossip queen sitting at the other end of the bar.

I do not think 'outing' someone is the right thing to do...though there are circumstances that may make me doubt my stand on this topic.

Disclosure is something I intend to do with anyone I will have sex with...because I still believe if my infector had informed me, I might not be here today..(and yes, I acknowledge 50% of the blame for trusting him and having risky sex).

I have come to realise that I am turning away potential partners who are neg because I fear their reaction when I will inform them I am positive...but I'd rather be alone than sleep with a guy who does not know I have HIV.

However if someone I know as pos is sleeping around without disclosing I take it upon myself to talk to them about the legal and moral implications...but I never out them. Its not my place to out anyone.

In my opinion, nobody has any right to privacy. People thing they are "entiltled" to privacy, but honestly, where is that written in stone? If you want "privacy" don't disclose anything about yourself. That is the ONLY way to avoid scrutiny.If anyone has a better way to hide from the world, let me and the rest of the readers know!

This is all very hypothetical. "Should" someone out you for being positive? Hard to a imagine a situation where that is justified. The only situation I can think of is someone who is positive who is disparaging others who are positive -- similar to closeted gays who are publicly anti-gay.

Will someone out you for being positive? It's certainly a possibility you cannot dismiss. People have big mouths. Some may out you unintentionally. Others like to gossip. A few feel it is their responsibility to protect (supposedly) negative folks from positive folks. But I think this just falls into the realm of "gossip" as well, as GSOgymrat pointed out. If they were really interested in protecting their friends, they' would also tell them they should be playing safely with someone they've just met, regardless of whatever they believe their status to be.

Regards,

Henry

« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 11:39:46 PM by Buckmark »

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Maybe I misunderstand the question but I believe all of us who are poz have an obligation to disclose to anyone who is a potential sex partner, no ifs ands or buts. I've always spilled the beans as soon as comfortably/conveniently possible -- I don't even like to suck face without disclosing because if the guy can't handle reality I don't want to waste much time on him.

I've had guys who wanted to wear a condom if I was going to perform oral sex... their personal right, of course, but pretty ignorant. It still amazes me that if I were not the goody two shoes I am many guys would have unprotected sex but as soon as I disclose there aren't enough condoms in the world to make sex with me safer. I've met men in bars and gotten "friendly" but when I say I'm poz some, pretty many, have acted like I infected them with a kiss. One time I completely forgot until we got to the gate of the guest house the guy was staying in. He said he was OK with it but his actions proved otherwise. I felt so stupid for forgetting I apologized about 50 times and have no doubt if I'd disclosed in the bar we would not have left together.

Call me a sex nazi (and a sex poodle! -- name that flick) but I probably would out someone if I knew he was not planning to inform a potential partner. HIV is a public health issue and I'd out someone who had clap or even pubic lice if I knew he wasn't going to do so. In the 3rd case it's simple decency (I'd rather have jalapeno peppers inserted in my rectum instead of getting crabs... ick!).

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

Sebastian, as the negative partner of a poz person, you really shouldn't be posting in the Living forum. This forum is for those of us who are actually living with hiv in our bodies. You can post in "Someone" and "Off Topic". Thank you for your cooperation.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Several times now I've had friends tell me that a mutual acquaintance has pulled them aside to breathlessly impart their knowledge of my hiv status, like it's some big deal. When the friends told them, "yeah, I've known for ages - so what?" they were all quite crestfallen and disappointed they didn't get the shocked response they were looking for. Makes me laugh every time. One of the joys of being out and open about hiv, I suppose.

Yep, just gossip. Or skeet, as we call it here on the Rock.

I've also had people come up to me to ask if so-and-so is poz, like I've got some sort of poz radar. I always ask them why it matters to them and I also ask them "do you know YOUR hiv status accurately? When was the last time YOU tested?" That usually shuts them up and gets them thinking.

And no, I'd never out someone. It's not my place. I do, however, urge everyone I know to use condoms unless they've tested together with that person blah blah blah...

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

...And no, I'd never out someone. It's not my place. I do, however, urge everyone I know to use condoms unless they've tested together with that person blah blah blah...

Ann

So if your daughter was dating someone and you knew the guy was infected but hadn't told her you'd recommend she use condoms and say no more? I know that's a very personal situation and different from the general discussion but "It's not my place" is an absolute.

Not trying to rag on you, be mean to you, or suggest you kill yourself... just to be clear (me, not you).

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

So if your daughter was dating someone and you knew the guy was infected but hadn't told her you'd recommend she use condoms and say no more? I know that's a very personal situation and different from the general discussion but "It's not my place" is an absolute.

Not trying to rag on you, be mean to you, or suggest you kill yourself... just to be clear (me, not you).

Boo, I've taught my daughter well. If she's dating a new guy, they use condoms until they've tested after being together for three months. And yes, we do talk candidly about this stuff. And no, I'm not worried about broken condoms either, because correctly used condoms rarely break and she knows how to make sure they're being used correctly.

So it's a non-issue where my daughter is concerned. After all, I'm hardly going to know the hiv status of any guy she goes with, so as long as she's doing what she needs to do to protect herself, what more can I do? She's an adult, I've given her a sex education and now, whether I like it or not, the rest is up to her.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

After all, I'm hardly going to know the hiv status of any guy she goes with

OK, Ann -- this sparked something, so I'm going to use one of your (very wise) lines of reasoning.

This whole discussion really does point to why HIV continues to spread. This thread assumes that one is really ONLY at risk with someone KNOWN to be positive. Instead of "outing" a positive person, it makes more sense to continually discuss how everyone you sleep with should be assumed to be positive. Again, it is saying that the risk is greatest when someone sleeps with a person who actually knows their status. How many would warn someone they were going home with someone who hasn't tested for HIV ever, or in 3 years, etc. Again -- I would bet (although I have no studies to quote or link to) that the vast majority of new infections come from people who have no clue they are positive -- not from those that do know.

The amazing thing to me is that this is coming from a group of positive folks -- I expect it from many negatives -- it enables them to keep their heads in the sand.

I know you have and apologize for not stating clearly my question is hypothetical. "Your daughter" should have been "Your child, sibling, best friend, total stranger... whatever." I'm simply a prude and wouldn't have 1/25th of a qualm about outing a poz person who was going to have unsafe sex with another person without disclosing. Even if the other person told me to MYOB or go frock myself I'd take the risk.

Bocker, my credo for the last umpteen years has been "Assume EVERYONE is poz" but that doesn't excuse irresponsibility on either person's part. Like I said I'm a sex nazi and just as I believe I have an absolute obligation to disclose I believe all of us do. Stupidity on one person's part does not excuse infecting him/her by someone who knows his/her status. I often rail against guys who post idiotic crap like "Neg as of 12/31" in their personal's profiles if the opportunity arises... sometimes I just do it anyway. I have never assumed, implied, stated, written, or dreamed anyone was at risk only with a person known to be positive. That's the stupid logic many still use when another discloses his/her status. Regardless of how many times I'm rejected when I disclose I always disclose.

Probably many or most new infections occur because neither party knows his/her status but I know too many people who were infected by someone who knew and did not disclose. If I could tattoo "HIV+" on the foreheads (a la William F. Buckley, Jr.) of such irresponsible jerks I would. I said in another post HIV is a public health issue and if only 1 new infection were prevented by my fascist beliefs it would be more than enough for me.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 05:24:43 AM by Boo Radley »

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

I have seen someone have sexual relations with many women and I never said a thing. I'm not necessarily proud of it, but I was just a kid in a 1/2 house. When I was 17, there was this dude, Wayne a 40 yr old, who made it clear to the group he had AIDS. He was a heroine addict trying to get clean because his father said it was the only way he could take over the family business.. This was back in 1986 on Miami Beach and Wayne would come in with a different lady every night. I never got into details with him, he was my room mate... he made sure I had food to eat and to tell the truth I had no one to turn to. All I know is Wayne would tell me, "Kid don't use my razor because I really don't know how I got this shit".

Wayne never got clean, I remember watching him in group sessions and he would have a distant look in his eye... I know he was scared and I was scared for him, we found him dead in his Cadillac one morning outside the house with the needle still in his arm.

I never asked him if he was using condoms, to tell the truth I can't remember if we thought they helped during this time..

I would not "out" anyone... even though I hate to hear stories of people who knew their status and choose to have unprotected sex with others.

Thank you everyone for your comments, I actually forgot I posted this, until I got my poz.com newsletter and decided to login.

I agree that HIV+ folks have an undeniable responsibility to "out" themselves before any "action" takes place, I am certainly AGAINST outting someone regardless.

I actually have a friend ask me the other day about another friends status (who happens to be gay). I told him, if you really want to know, go ask him, it is not my place to out anyone.

That being said, we have haven't discussed the effects of booze, pot and other drugs and the dropping of your morals. Too many times, I have seen men on the hookup lose those upstanding "truth" morals when they are 3 sheets to the wind. When you see someone so blotto that you know they will not put their health concerns above the need to get off, do you say something then?

(Please remember, I started this thread with the full intention of NEVER outting anyone, but as I think of it, as I have witnessed folks get buzzed out of there mind and knowing that I have blacked out on occasion (damn Jack Daniels!), I may not have been sane enough to remember my morals.)

I think there are a few sides to this cookie.1) Morally, no you shouldn't go around sleeping with others without disclosing your STD status including HIV, hepatitis, HPV, HSV, Herpes 1,2, etc ,etc.....

2)Would I disclose? hmmm, no.... but I would certainly suggest that someone play safe.

3) Let's turn the tables. How would your neg friend feel if I outed them for being neg and warned my poz friend to be careful he didn't catch something from them? After all, they have a better immune system and might be harboring something that could make one of us sick. Bet their panties wind up in a knot real fast.

4) HIPPA is an oft-cited "law" here... but remember HIPPA and it's privacy assurances only apply to covered healthcare situations. Generally their must be payment for health services to invoke. I'm not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.... I recommend you read it yourself and make your own informed opinion.

5) Privacy often masquerades as a demon in our lives with HIV. Most of the time it controls those who seek to maintain it. When you fear something you grant it power over your life. The reality is that you can't change what others do, right, wrong, or otherwise. You can disclose where appropriate and choose not to disclose where you feel it is not in your best interests.

6) The bigger issue that you didn't ask.... how is it anyone's responsibility to nurse-maid someone's sexual choices? If Negperson is going home with strangers and not practicing safe sex that isn't necessarily the poz person's fault. I see it over and over again where guys go to the baths and fuck like bunnies without condoms and then sit in the hot tub and talk trash about the poz guys. Um, Houston we have a problem. Your stupidity is not my emergency. You have a right to protect your own health by choosing what activities you engage in. Engaging in high-risk sex may expose you to STDs including HIV. If you do not wish to have this exposure you should probably take risk reduction measures such as using condoms, limiting activities practiced, or abstaining.

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Don't obsess over the wrong things. Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion. It's about getting out there and enjoying it. I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

I have a friend who was dating this guy. I know you can't always tell by looking at someone whether they have HIV. I would say more than 90% of the time you can't tell. However, we all know about problems with fat redistribution from HIV, the meds, or both. You can tell some are positive by looking. I know some will argue with that.

Anyway, I knew this guy was poz by looking at him. I also saw older pix of this guy and you could really tell a difference. I kept my mouth shut to my friend. I did tell him he should use condoms until they both get tested if they are starting a relationship. My friend had unprotected sex with this guy--several times for a few months. Yes, my friend was a big boy and it was his responsibility to practice safe sex. After about 2 months, the guy finally told him he had been positive for years--even had AIDS diagnosis. I really wanted to go beat this guy up, but I'd probably end up with my ass kicked..lol.

My friend developed swollen lymph nodes all over his body...just like I did when I was infected. He got tested and was negative, but didn't get the 3 or 6 month re-test. He is scared to be tested again. To make a long story short, if I saw this guy picking someone up, I think I would have to step in and tell them. This guy obviously had sex for 2 months without telling my friend he was poz. I'm sure he has done it again and again. I would only do this with someone I knew was having unprotected sex with people and not telling them. With everyone else, I would feel it isn't my business.

dude, you're doing it wrong. you're supposed to use a rolled-up pair of socks. it doesn't matter if you look skinny, all that matters is that it looks like you've got a big piece of meat.

Your talking to a guy who has to be careful when he sits on the toilet, it really sucks feeling cold toilet water hit your head. If I don't wear 5 pairs of boxers you could technically call me One Pocket Man.... because all it takes is one pocket of my jeans to cover my quickly shrinking ass.

Excuse my naivete but I am in a confused state because I can't believe someone would feel it was alright to out me for what ever reason because it seems to me to be between the two having the sex cause you don't know if and when someone could disclose. I theoretically rather have sex witha person with HIV and on meds than with someone shouting their negative status. From what I understand the person with little knowledge is more of the threat. I also have drunk an awful lot and been with men who also have and that pretty much does enough damage. I would have hoped for more solidarity from postive men and not so quick to judge and slaughter. We have enough to live with without worrying if someone will out me cause they think I won't tell. Scary to think someone is in my shoes with me and my conscience as it pertains to my disclosure status...