Philosophically predestination is really, really hard to understand.
But all is by no mean lost. You can put your faith in Christ and use predestination to work for you.

IE. If you believe that you were predestinated "in Christ" to be presented before God eventually "holy and without blermish" why not stand upon that in faith? And why not witness God bringing it to pass as you request He operate His will in you?

Here is a absolutely wonderful passage upon which the truth seeker may stand in faith;

" Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ,

Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,

PREDESTINATING us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ... (See Eph. 1:3-5)

Predestination, theologically and philosophically is really HARD to figure out.
But I think a very useful secret is that this marking out of your destiny is in the realm of a living Person - Christ

" ...Even as He chose us in Him ... "

How do you know that you were not chosen by God "in Him" and that "before the foundation of the world" ?

What on earth stops any man or woman stepping out on faith to get INTO the realm of Jesus Christ, praying -

"Lord Jesus, I thank You. I accept that you DID choose me before the creation of the universe to mark out my destiny to be Your child, Your son, Your beloved saved one holy and without blemish before You in love."

You get yourself into the sphere - into the very realm of Jesus Christ and you thank God for the ride. This is like getting on a jumbo jet in NY that you know will cause you to arrive in Montreal. In the jet there is no problem. Its mighty flying power will cause you to arrive at the destination.

We need to learn how to ride the "Jumbo Jesus" into God's eternal purpose to present us holy and without blemish before Him in eternal love.

Originally posted by sonshipPhilosophically [b]predestination is really, really hard to understand.
But all is by no mean lost. You can put your faith in Christ and use predestination to work for you.

IE. If you believe that you were predestinated "in Christ" to be presented before God eventually "holy and without blermish" why not stand upon that in fa ...[text shortened]... hrist to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ... (See Eph. 1:3-5) [/b] [/quote][/b]

So let's be clear here;

When you combine your belief in the "perfect justice" of burning people in hell for eternity, with your belief in predestination...what we get is a version of god who designs people to fail, provides salvation but predestines only a few to make it and the rest to be burnt alive forever or "hung in chains of punishment as a warning to those (the other poor saps) on other worlds, while he (your version of God) loves the world so much that he came and died for those predestined to be burnt.

Of course there are all kinds of problems to the natural mind in predestination:

"If there was no time how could God have "chosen" me?

But we can be pragmatic about the paradox. We can use simply faith to benefit from the mystery. We can simply thank God for operating according to His word.

God honors man standing of faith. And God is so very pleased when we walk by faith and not by sight. Standing on our being marked out for a certain destiny "in Him [Christ]" yields result of transformation in the soul.

"Even as He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love ... "

This is more than forgiven of our sins.
This is to be saturated with a nature that is "holy" meaning apart from all other things except God Himself. God alone is holy.

" ... For You alone are holy ..." (Rev. 15:4)

For sure, some things set apart in a position totally dedicated to God, are also said to be holy - as holy angels, or the marriage bed is holy.

But here in Ephesians 1 the New Testament means more than set apart in a dedicated position in relation to God. It means to be filled up with God's Spirit and life and nature. It is for the Father to dispense His communicable attributes into man.

Foreign elements are removed out - "without blemish".
And God's life is dispensed into - "holy".

God marked out the predestinated one for such a destination. And we certainly can stand upon that divine promise and put ourselves into the sphere and realm of Jesus Christ to enjoy this working out of God's will.

Like this:

" Lord Jesus, I do not trust in my ability. I place myself into Your faithful hands. Work out Your predestinating of me to be holy and without blemish before You in love. Operate according to Your plan. Praise You for the power of Your operation and Your faithful arranging of my eternal destiny."

This is a prayer not for trivial things. And God, I believe, honors this kind of standing on His promise.

When you combine your belief in the "perfect justice" of burning people in hell for eternity, with your belief in predestination...what we get is a version of god who designs people to fail, provides salvation but predestines only a few to make it and the rest to be burnt alive forever or "hung in chains of punishment as a war ...[text shortened]... .

Perfect justice.
Perfect sense.
Perfect fruitloopery.
Perfect error.

#strangebeliefs

In the realm of Christ all is positive. So there are two "in/s" which I would draw attention to:

" He chose us IN HIM ..." (v.4)

And He "graced us" in Him, "the Beloved"

"To the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He graced us IN the Beloved." (v.6)

This passage and entire book of Ephesians is so positive. It talks about the realm "in Him".

Since this salvation is so assured "in Him" God gives a "pledge" as a foretaste and downpayment. That is the Holy Spirit as a "seal" and a "pledge" that He will complete His purpose in the saved.

" In whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, in Him believing, you were also SEALED with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

Who is the PLEDGE [or foretaste, guarantee] of our inheritance ... unto the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory." (v.13,14)

In the realm of Christ we know God cannot fail.

It is so much sweeter to taste the nourishing word then the abundance of malice.

It is so much sweeter to taste the nourishing word then the abundance of malice.

In the realm of Christ all is positive.This is nothing more than an unsubstantiated, contradictory bland platitude designed to ease your cognitive dissonance and warped moral compass.

It is so much sweeter to taste the nourishing word then the abundance of malice.I'm not the one preaching that it is "perfect justice" to predestine people to be burnt in hell for eternity while Jesus watches. You are!

Good positive stuff sonship. To bad divegeester still doesn't get it. He seems to think "predestination" means that some are chosen to be saved and others lost.

I'd like to examine that idea for a moment just to make my position clear about what predestination means, at least to me.

Predestination doesn't mean that God chose some to be saved and others lost. The idea is that God knew who would believe and who wouldn't since before creation, and predestined that those that would believe would be made to be "in Christ", but those that chose not to believe would receive judgment based on their works.

Originally posted by divegeester[b]In the realm of Christ all is positive.This is nothing more than an unsubstantiated, contradictory bland platitude designed to ease your cognitive dissonance and warped moral compass.

It is so much sweeter to taste the nourishing word then the abundance of malice.I'm not the one preaching that it is "perfect justice" to predestine people to be burnt in hell for eternity while Jesus watches. You are![/b]

You're not right. Just look up every passage where "in Christ" appears and then see if it's not all positive for the believer.

For those who are not found to be "in Christ" all is a negative. They face judgement and a Christ-less eternity.

Originally posted by divegeesterAs for predestination, I believe God is sovereign, responsible and accountable and that when Christ died for all, that's exactly what happened. Atonement for all mankind.

That's a direct contradiction of what the Word of God teaches.

Salvation is for all, but eternal life is given to those who believe.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

God's righteousness is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all, but upon all who believe.

If one doesn't believe they are not saved. That's a clear Biblical truth.

Originally posted by josephwGood positive stuff sonship. To bad divegeester still doesn't get it. He seems to think "predestination" means that some are chosen to be saved and others lost.

I'd like to examine that idea for a moment just to make my position clear about what predestination means, at least to me.

Predestination doesn't mean that God chose some to be saved and others ...[text shortened]... ve would receive judgment based on their works.

What do you think? Do you think I'm on to it?

Good positive stuff sonship. To bad divegeester still doesn't get it. He seems to think "predestination" means that some are chosen to be saved and others lost. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the encouragement.
My burden is more along the line of, say, the example of Joseph.
That is a story of God causing all things to work together for good and for God's purpose.

You know that Genesis 37 - 50 contains that story of the boy predestinated to reign as a king. He had the dream you know. The dream caused his brothers to hate him. The dream caused his brothers to be sold into slavery to the Egyptians.

God worked it all out. And the under divine providence all that his brothers did in reaction TO the dream just CAUSED the dream to be fulfilled!

What a fantastic matter is our God's transcendence over time and His sovereign predestination.

I'd like to examine that idea for a moment just to make my position clear about what predestination means, at least to me. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Give it your best [brief] shot then.

Predestination doesn't mean that God chose some to be saved and others lost. The idea is that God knew who would believe and who wouldn't since before creation, and predestined that those that would believe would be made to be "in Christ", but those that chose not to believe would receive judgment based on their works.

I really find it hard to figure out. However, this part about being "in Christ" is my emphasis too.

In Christ is in the whole realm in which God will produce sons for sonship.
In the sphere of Christ God will present the believers holy and without any foreign element.

You know in the fall of man a evil foreign element entered into our being - the nature of sin.

In Christ, that is "in the Beloved" is a dimension in which every foreign particle is flushed out and God's life and nature are dispensed into man. He cannot fail to fulfill this "dream" either.

What do you think? Do you think I'm on to it? --------------------------------------------------------------

For about the last two or three years perhaps, I have come to the same kind of opinion. That is that God's foreknowledge is tied in to this matter of predestination.
But I would not be able to explain it completely.

In the meantime, just look at all the wonderful matters that come to pass "in Him" as a Person we can enter into.

Christ is "enterable". That is the most important thing to me in this matter. He is a enterable Person who becomes a whole living realm in which God's eternal purpose is dynamically operating.

I think as you said mysteriously, divine foreknowledge and divine predestination somehow are working together.

What do you think of the story of Joseph's words in the end of that story of God's predestination and foreknowledge ? He tells his brothers who are now afraid that Joseph will wreak revenge on them:

" And his brothers also went and fell down before him and said, We are here as your servants.

And Joseph said to them, Do not be afraid, for am I in the place of God?

Even though you intended evil against me, God intended it for good, to do as it is this day, to preserve alive a numerous people." (Gen. 50:18-20)