==> Methylation Forum Notes: Notes on taking the deadlock supps

Most do best with methylfolate several times a day because of it's relatively short halflife. It needs to be taken at different times from the potassium. So again, folate with 1 tablet each 4 hours might work better than 5 at once in the morning. Like potassium, I have gone into folate insufficiency 6 hours after a barely adequate dose. Take the folate first and wait for 45 minutes for potassium

Found this answer of Fredd...so I ask : if Fredd write "methylfolate orally reaching a serum peak in an hour and sublingual b12 that is absorbed noticeably in 5 minutes"....is not better to take sublingual b12 after 1 hour of methylfolate when it reach its serum peak ?

Freddd: "Rich gives a very good desription of it somewhere that could be found. Basically the "methyltrap" (hypothesis for 30 years or so) occurs when there is not enough MeCbl for the methylfolate in the cell to complete it's function and it is kicked out of the cell, causing distinctive folate deficiency symptoms instead of the MeCbl deficiency symptoms that would be expected. It is a more severe level of methylation block than the partial methylation block."

For instance, with methyltrap a lot of these symptoms can come on in a day or five. With low b12 it can take 6 months or more. Partial methylation block starts with 1 or 2 symptoms very quickly and may add more or get worse or may not. For me I get things like angular cheilitis, scalp and face acne type lesions withing 2-3 days, IBS in 5 days and peeling and cracking skin on my fingertips in 2-3 weeks, but that starts changing right away but takes a while to become obvious. It takes practice to recognize the changing symptoms.

I see nothing at all wrong with adding the folate from the start. Otherwise you just have cause of symptoms swapping back and forth. To heal you need the l-methyylfolate and MeCbl hitting the cells at the same time. If you take the folate 30-60 minutes before a sublingual, absorbtion and retention appears better, usually a small improvemnt, but then thats what I have done for 10 years, after the big ones are in place.It became a matter of gaining another few percentage points of improvement over and over again.

Take them together. Swallow a l-methylfolate and put the MeCbl AND AdoCbl under you lips. That way you are NOT doing that. The particular genetic info is useless here. It just doesn't matter. The horrid symptoms can be methyltrap which can hit in minutes and hard and/or paradocical folate deficiency and/or low potassium. Those don't depend on genes. They can happen to anybody depending upon the exact details of their situation. Methyltrap is the fastest hardest hitting but can take from an hour to a day to hit.

Freddd: "After things level off with the LCF you might want to consider rebalancing. Try more l-mehtylfolate and see if and how it makes a difference. You may find that it is now limiting other things. Watch for increased donut hole paradoxical folate insufficiency symptoms. Also potassium may change again. LCF may turn on a whole lot of healing, mitochondria and cell formation. It made a huge difference for me on exercise capacity and rate of adapting.."

Freddd:
In my experience, methyltrap hits like a ton of bricks. I had FMS for perhaps 10 years. Then one morning I woke up terribly sick with 100 more symptoms taking shape over the first week. That was the combination of methyltrap and partial ATP block based on what has occurred since then.

Paradoxical folate insufficiency, including donut hole, is much slow and gentler onset. It usually creeps up on you. It dfoen't have as many symptoms and it doesn't hit like a ton of bricks.

You are taking plenty of b12 for most healing and certainly enough to keep you out of methyltrap. One of the cautions that comes up now is to be careful of B2 amounts. It can cause what looks like a really severe donut hole folate insufficiency as well as very low potassium which is difficult to correct. For some people relatively too much biotin can overdrive the ATP end of things much as too much B2 appears to overdrive part of the methylation cycle or something of the sort.

Also, NAC and/or glutathione can cause the same set of methyltrap symptoms regardless of how much b12 and folate one takes confusing the issue to no end.

Freddd on Mercury:
People with mercury, and I had lots of it, can and do have toxic symptoms. 80% of the toxic symptoms of mercury are identical with b12 deficiency symptoms, or methyltrap symptoms ANDOR partial ATP block symptoms ANDOR partial methylation block (very possibly CAUSED by the mercury). Mercury converts MeCbl to inactive if and when it takes the methyl group. Taking the methyl group causes the now monomethylmercury to be excreted by the liver in the bile thereby ending up in the feces and not the body. Further it happens at a slow pace, less that 1% of MeCbl in the body. Using the research data I built a conversion and excretion model. The research data is actually very easy to model. The studies of methylmercury, toxicity and excretion are all quite consistant in peer reviewed literature.

However, as mercury claims less than 1% of the avaialbe MeCbl on any given dose, that leaves plenty from any size dose, from 100mcg absorbed to 100mg injected and absorbed, for a person to have hypokalemia and folate insufficiency all at the same wonderfiul time of feeling awful sick. If mercury does steal the methyl group from MeCbl, one mg of mercury destroys about 7mg of MeCbl. There is zero doubt about that, simple math. Also 99% of the dose is excreted unchanged in the urine in 24 to 48 hours. Those are the "constraints of prior research", as Dbkita called them, along with others (parmacodynamics of various substances), put upon MeCbl and mercury. So, for 7mg of MeCbl to be destroyed rapidly by a given dose within those constraints, let's be generous and use a subcutaneous injection to give it more time for the two to get together at higher concentration, it would take a 700+mg injection to have the 7mg destroyed within the 1% constraint. Anything else would be fantasy in terms of the actual research that has been done. As it takes 30mg of mononmethylmercury in circulation to cause "barely noticable" toxic effects, according to peer reviewed research, the model I constructed attempted to get to conditions under which thayt could happen taking into account the pharmacodynmics of each of the substances. At any reasonable rate of MeCbl dosing, and I determined the amounts and posted the results of the model, such as 1-100mg of MeCbl absorbed per day, there is no way to get up to that threshold of toxic symptoms by taking MeCbl, not even close. I calculated the clearance time from the body of all sorts of levels of mercury, and the peak steady state monomethylmercury level in the body generated by MeCbl, if it can do that at all. Even that is debated in the peer reviewed papers.

I'm a sceptic on lots of research, especially that which sounds like it was designed for marketing. Everybody researching the mercury is sufficiently disinterested that they can be trusted not to be bending the results to fit their theories which mostly they are still figuring out. I read all articles with large grains of salt. I saw no reason to distrust all the different studies involved in mercury that I read.

So while you say " I don't see how any of what you say is possible" it might be a good idea for you to do some more reading sufficient to make your own models from the research info and let's discuss that. I trust the journals on mercury more than I trust the many belief systems on mercury that ignore all the scientific evidence. Show why the scientific evidence and all those journal articles are wrong. Are you going to after the chemistry? The pharmacodynamics? Or what?

Adenosylcobalamin can be converted into methylcoblamin which is then used for methylation. Methylation can cause toxins such as metals to be released.

At how much per day? At what percentage of sufficiency? As that is an uphill conversion it requires an enzyme and ATP which deosn't happen if there is not enough AdoCbl and LCF in the first place. For people in partial ATP block that just isn't going to happen. And even if 10mcg of AddoCbl does convert to MeCbland 100% of it goes towards mercury that amounts to 1.4mcg (MICROGRAMS, you know 1/1,000,000 of a gram) There is absolutely no evidence that 1.4mcg of methylmercury is toxic to a human. You hypotheses don't hold water and as far as I can see can't be made to hold water. So please, consider the scientific data that is avaialable.

And folate insufficiency symptoms point right at IBS however one got there. For me IBS turns on and off with my other intial folate insufficiency symptoms.

It is always part of a sequence. First I start retaining water. Then the area of the angular cheilitis starts burning, then the sores become open, then the IBS starts. The day it turns around I loose a big surge of water, then the IBS and cheilitis improve by the day for about 5 days. Then things are good until something triggers it all over again. It seems to follow a missed dose of folate. It has lessened since taking it separate from potassim and C but that is not a complete solution.

Most do best with methylfolate several times a day because of it's relatively short halflife. It needs to be taken at different times form the potassium. So again, folate with 1 tablet each 4 hours might work better than 5 at once in the morning. Like potassium, I have gone into folate insufficiency 6 hours after a barely adequate dose. Take the folate first and wait for 45 minutes for potassium

important to supply methylcobalamin first before methylfolate to prevent methyl trapping

There is no need at all except maybe the very first dose of sublingual b12 only. And as I take methylfolate orally reaching a serum peak in an hour and sublingual b12 that is absorbed noticeably in 5 minutes when I was deficient or 30 minutes in the CNS there really isn't a problem. I have found that having the methylfolate on board while absorbing most of the b12 vastly increases the serum halflife. When in partial methylation block via folic acid b12 excretion via urine is very rapid. When in methyltrap, it is much much much faster. When in full methylfolate sufficiency serum half life is far longer then with folic acid. This is visible in the urine if one is taking large enough doses.

Methylfolate is best absorbed on an empty stomach or sublingually

I've never tried it sublingually. I take it on an empty stomach to avoid potassium and vitamin C which hinder it, and it is absorbed well.. It is said to be very well absorbed orally with food. I take my first dose of folate on empty stomach in morning with pre-meal supplements (LCF, SAM-e, DHEA, Pregnenolone and my meds). Then my first dose of AdoCbl/MeCbl after my first cup of coffee. Then I eat near noon my first meal. The methylfolate substantially increases retention of MeCbl in some way for some reason. In the evening I eat, wait two hours, take folate and then evening dose of b12, then an hour or more later potassium at bedtime.

I take a full assortment of vitamins except folate and b12 at each of 2 meals.

Somewhere in the afternoon I take a dose of methylfolate and then an hour or so later, potassium.

This works for me.

I'm finding that the first MeCbl-AdoCbl (10mg and 10mg, 5 star, 100mg MeCbl 3-4 star for 1-2 hours retention) an hour after SAM-e and LCF gets the neurological healing going, which is often not pleasant as it can cause irritation and anger if certain areas are damaged. I've been through several cycles of this.

I don't always get the timing perfect due to living a life and having other things to do. I just do the best I can.

Freddd

The brands have changed in some cases. There is a lot of progress in understanding since that was written and unfortunately there is also some misunderstandings obvious in your list. So to make it short everything in your list is wrong for starting with and most was never corrent.

So, A low strength b-complex limited to NO FOLIC ACID, NO CYANOCOBALAMIN, 20mg max b1, 30-40 max b2 and 100mg max b3 total of 2 doses in a day.
Vitamins A, C, D, E, magnesium, selenium, calcium, zinc, potassium (and that must be on hand and then titrated to need, maybe 200-3000mg a day for a lot of people), omega3 oils, lecithin
Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion MeCbl,
Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex (AdoCbl)
L-methylfolate (Solgar 800mcg is a good one and half the price of some brands, many people end up at near 15mg a day after titration and balancing if they healing going well)
L-carnitine fumarate (Drs Best or other brand of carnitine by Sigma Tau)

CoQ10 can cause immediate high blood pressure during perhaps 1st year,
D-Ribose is not a first round nutrient. Its for reinforcing the ATP pathway if it isn't sufficient after all the bnasics and Deadlock Quartet.
Acetyl L-carnitine works well for about 10%, LCF for about 90%. A mixture doesn't work..