The World Health Organization (WHO), American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), and other health leaders have advised doctors that a pelvic exam/pap test is not medically indicated for women wanting birth control pills. In fact, women taking birth control pills can be at increased risk of a false positive pap test result due to altered hormone levels http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/mediaroom/releases/pages/birth-control-use-linked-to-abnormal-pap-test-result.aspx However, regardless of new research and recommendations, some doctors are continuing to withhold prescriptions until women first submit to a pap test/pelvic exam. In addition, some doctors are now linking sexually transmitted disease testing together with birth control prescriptions.

As a result, women have begun to find their own way around unwanted and unnecessary exams. Women who do not wish to submit to a pelvic exam/pap test/STD testing before being granted prescriptions are beginning to boycott doctors and unwanted exams by buying birth control pills online – no prescription required.

Here is what women are saying about buying birth control online:

Jan 29, 2013 at 6:17 am

Haley, type in www medsmex dot com They have 13 different kinds of birth control pills; I used to order from them; they are fine. Look in the M section; there is one available for $5.88 per month. I’ll be ordering from them again if I get a decent tax refund check.

Also, on Google, type in India pharmacy ethinyl estradiol * that is the chemical name for birth control pills. I have also spent countless hours searching online and would print the entire list of websites I have come up with, but always get my posts deleted when I do. I used to religiously order from a Thai place, but they shut down their website last March * I have five years’ worth stockpiled but need 130+ packs to last me through Menopause so I keep buying them every single time money permits. (Torrance * Connecticut) http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-189/#comments

buypharma.com sells several birth control, reasonably priced (I think), they ship worldwide, and although the site says, “Prescription is required for prescription medicines.” I have ordered and received good quality prescription medicine without a prescription from them. I received it in 1-2 weeks (In States). You can get other meds there too. It’s worth trying if you don’t want to get another invasive exam!!! (Dee) http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-192/#comments

347 comments

I dont use birth control but as a woman i am blown away that doctors think they have a right to use bc to force pap test on woman. and refuse the pill to those who do not wish to have tools and hands inside there bodys. doctors have been trained to see these exams as not sexuall. so they dont see it as rape when a woman feels forcet to have a genetal exam. i have read that some doctors do back down when the woman brings a lawyer in the mix sadly most do not know there rights. and some one needs to be regulating doctors. a law to protect womans rights.

I agree there should be a law to protect women’s rights. If a woman is coerced/forced to undergo digital and object penetration in order to obtain medications or treatment for illness there is something wrong with the system. Many women find the invasiveness and sexual nature of the exam traumatic, and a forced exam also exposes her to risk of abuse – all in the name of health care of course. Cervical cancer is rare, a pap test is unreliable as a testing method. Women have the right to say no but that right is stripped away when all drs are on board regarding required exams in exchange for prescriptions and other health care. Drs dance around the issue of consent by stating the woman is free to go elsewhere to get her prescriptions when she refuses vaginal exams, but if all drs are on board with the requirement then where is the woman supposed to go. Women who require prescriptions (esp. birth control) or other health care (esp. when pregnant) are most vulnerable to the coercion. It is very interesting that drs will back down if there is a lawyer brought into the mix.

Reblogged this on The ObamaCrat.Com™ and commented:
I have found a blog, or rather I should say Ms. Sue found me, that promotes good safe medical health information for women. Meet Ms. Sue from the blog: “forwomenseyesonly”.

Mr. Jueseppi B., it has been easy for me to find my way to your site because your wonderful works are often reblogged by bloggers I follow, and I am so delighted to get a return visit from you. And you certainly know how to do a visit, bestowing upon me all those fun and fantastic things I enjoy so much! Thank you!!

Here are more places to purchase birth control pills; thank you, Sue, for posting resources for women. I will continue to find more places to obtain birth control pills, online. Sorry if some are duplicates! Please note my notations, although I’m not trying to be funny.

*NOTE FROM MODERATOR: I have received notifications regarding too many links not connecting properly, and cached pages causing some difficulties for some of the companies that are linked below. I am removing the links (May 19/13) but leaving the names – this way you can copy and paste into a Google search and still be able to find the sites.

Inhousepharmacy.com in US wanted a prescription on 07/14/14 from Me. I ended up having to order a single pack for under $45.00 from another site. I plan on-if I have good results in shipment- going back to that site to purchase generic Ortho Tricyclen again, but in a larger quantity.. Their prices are a bit higher than the afforementioned site but it’s better
than getting pregnant when I don’t
want to if I can help it.. This site is rxrefill.com or canadianpharmacy.com . I believe women should have better access to contraception.. I mean if a 14 year old can get a morning after pill easily then why can’t women who are over 18 acquire birth control more easily!?!?.. Quite a bass ackwards system if Ya ask Me!!! What is that petition link for the over the counter birth control petition?

I have gotten an enormous laugh and an equally huge amount of satisfaction over you posting this list. To me, this is a horrible situation which has come full circle after more than three decades of perverted doctors demanding I have gynecological exams starting when I was only eleven years old. I refused and thankfully keep researching new places to obtain birth control pills * soon I will be able to afford to stockpile the remaining birth control pills I need to last me through Menopause, no thanks to the doctors who withheld them for NO reason whatsoever. If even one woman benefits from this list, I will feel immeasurably honored someone was also able to obtain what she needed without the Byzantine hassles of being forced into painful and worse, unnecessary examinations. I will NEVER forget asking the doctor who I DATED when HE refused to prescribe them for me back in 1988: I recall EXACTLY where I was standing! I said: “Just what exactly are you looking for, that when you find it, you will then prescribe birth control pills for me?!” He shrugged and said that all women submit for those exams; it’s “just how it’s done”. I said: “Not THIS woman!” And I broke up with him, too. Thanks for your great website. You’re helping countless women get a handle on a situation that probably the majority of us have always felt and instinctively KNOWN was WRONG.

It is sad that women have to find alternative ways to get birth control pills. But it is great that the online community can offer site suggestions that they have found to offer quality products. I just fear for those who randomly pick med sites that may be selling ineffective or dangerous products.
Yet another reason getting information out about this topic is important.

Katie, I have been period-free for over twelve years so the birth control pills I’ve purchased are real, not fakes. I’d bled NONSTOP for over 20 years, so to never have bled since September of 2000, since I FINALLY obtained birth control pills online, proves I have bought legitimate medications ever since. The relief has been indescribable. Helped my ongoing, lifelong, horrific headaches to subside by 80%, too. I cannot tell you how long I suffered in horrendous pain, both via headaches and monthly period nonsense, when a simple birth control pill could have cured the bulk of my ailments. How very cruel and sadistic that for all the doctors my mother dragged me to, each and every week, not a single quack would prescribe something to give me relief. I am furious to this day for suffering for over 22 years until I took matters into my own hands and finally cured MYSELF.

Please help me! I need a reliable website to order birth control that will help regulate my cycle. I’ve been bleeding for months! I’ve been irregular since high school and have been on birth control pills on and off since then, but the Planned Partenthood in my city has been closed down. I hate the pap exam and always feel so violated. Help me, please. I’ve even become depressed from so much stress and worrying. I just want it to stop..

Molly, it’s actually illegal for them to refuse you birth control if you don’t have internal exams! It seems a blood pressure test is the only thing like that ( I figure it should still be entirely at your discretion, but a blood pressure test consists of VASTLY different things than what they tend to force women into). I have a number of posts that may be of interest to you (on this and other threads on this site). They may be helpful to you (moreso than this particular post, at least) if you’re looking for advice on how not to get backed into things, recruiting other peoples’ assistance (it would probably work with women, too- but getting male back-up tends to be a bit tricker sometimes, hence the specific advise), or just putting a situation into words. Not to be egotistical, but they do cover a bunch of points that are somewhat omitted in general. Nobody made them for me or mine, so I hope it helps to distribute information a bit.

I’ll makes some points for you right here, though: ANY interface (visually or physically) with sexual areas as a product of someone else’s decision-making (that could be called an “instance of third- party orchestration”) is abuse. It makes NO difference if these are the properties of a medical procedure or not. If someone gets poisoned with a needle, that’s still murder. This is an iatrogenic attack with severe additional ramifications. Reality does not take a coffee break for doctors (saying “it’s not a problem if a doctor does it” is exactly like saying “it’s not wrong if a priest does it,” which is called “thinking by analogy”- from what I’m told). A medical methodology doesn’t neutralize any of the other effects of this situation (a woman doesn’t have any less of a miscarriage because it was medically generated, instead of being caused by a kick in the belly). These are all points, on their own. The legality of a situation does not make anything different (but it is NOT legal). Overall, circumstances are not effected by designation. That would be “thinking by adjucation” (more commonly known as “reality is what I say it is” thinking). Making the point that reality is not formed by recognition (otherwise, how could someone get hit by a car they didn’t see coming or drown thinking they could walk on the water?) is potentially a very useful point.

Saying: “Are you refusing to give me birth control?” might do the trick, then & there. Maybe threating to file complaints with medical licencing boards & such would be useful (looking up how to do that might be of use, too). Having someone with you to make sure things don’t get more conventionally aggressive would be useful, too. Don’t forget: there is such a thing as aggressive lesbianism & if talking to a man, making that point would be EXTREMELY useful (I know from experience that that has a higher probability of getting through than the subtle approach). Dynamics don’t change because standards do, so if you’re having a hard time with the “Am I making a problem out of something that doesn’t count?” situation- there you go. Of course it counts, circumstances constitute the situation. This situation consists of an abusive circumstance. By-the-way: a situation you “have a problem with” would be called “antagonistic to you alignment” (you know how it’s sometimes hard to find words for something being against the grain with you or that you’re “uncool with” on a sexual level?- that’s how to phrase it, at least one way). The doctor (or whoever) implementing their own decisions is not okay (and someone else putting words in your mouth is not “implied consent,” either).

I hope this doesn’t come off like a mission briefing or something, but I’m trying to give you as much “ammo” as possible, so you can use what you need as you need. I’ve heard that the pill might be available over-the-counter soon, but I don’t know & that doesn’t mean that the overall harassement would stop. It might be worth knowing that there are several books available on herbal health for women (some of them are on that subject specifically & some include it with other things). That might help in more ways than one (since most medicine is just a qucik fix at best- I read in a Rosemary Gladstar book that some of women’s issues are caused by liver probelms! Not really an intuitive leap that one would often make, but it has to do with hormones not being processed well enough & that leads to other things.).

I hope this helps and if you have any additional questions feel perfectly free to ask (I’ve been having a hard time posting on this site on & off, but at least this got through).

Can you tell us more about what you said about you heard the Pill might be available OTC soon? Where do you live? US? Australia? England? Canada (*crosses fingers*). That would be the answer to all my problems, basically. I have the same problem as Molly. Based on my symptoms, I think I probably have estrogen dominance. I’ve ordered progesterone cream, but it hasn’t arrived yet, either.

I currently live in the US, but I might move soon (for various reasons- actually, this is one of them). I heard pretty much what I wrote (it might be a vote or something in a couple of months or something- it wasn’t real conclusive). If the Americans do it, though- it seems the rest of the “America-esque” countries will do it, too. I think in Canada it’s supposed to just be a questionaire (maybe, unofficially, it’s different- but asking a lawyer or maybe just threating to use one might work). I heard that using a piece of lemon or lime (like a diaphram, particularly, but also the juices as a wash or a “sponge” with the juices in it) would work as a contraceptive & STD preventative. Just thought I’d mention that (I know it’s not exactly what you were talking about, though).

With estrogen dominance, it seems like diet change can have a large effect (like with sugar screwing around with pH levels?). There are a lot of things with estrogen in it and this, actually, causes impotence sometimes! (Who’d have thought: female hormones impede male abilities? Wow!). Apparently, a lot of the meat is from female animals & is injected with estrogen to make the meat more tender- sometimes pesticides or constituents/ingredients in packaging materials (plastics & such) have that effect, too. A more alkaline diet is supposed to be useful for that (maybe baking soda added into it here & there?). I also heard of a plant called damiana (turnera diffusa), might be worth looking into.

Okay Torrance, I deleted the link you requested. That is dreadful you almost had to undergo an exam when you were only eleven! All women (and children) have the right to informed consent, and no doctor has the right to withhold it. The excuse of doctor knows best is not valid, especially in light of the evidence regarding screening for cervical cancer. Cervical cancer is rare, the pap test is unreliable, and many women are being harmed by further testing. Women have the right to say no, and it is paternalistic and unethical to withhold that right.

I think this type of forum that offers information, ideas, and alternatives for people searching for answers and looking to share their stories and what has helped them is one of the best things the Internet has to offer.
As the world of healthcare changes and more people become increasingly proactive about taking their health into their own hands, it will become even more essential that there are sites where we can share our own journies and help others with their quests.
We can hope that parents start researching for their children when a problem arises. And that all doctors will open their minds and ears.

You captured the essence of the movement here, there really have been changes in healthcare. People are much less likely to place blind trust in their drs than they were in the past, and yes people are more likely now to search for information and attempt to manage health issues on their own. I agree that forums have become a valuable source of information, especially ones that offer opportunity to share lived experiences. I place a great deal of trust in data I gather from reading about people’s experiences. Thank you Katie.

most of woman health is not evadence based. I have heard of woman who when threten to get a lawyer the doctor got scared and gave them the pills with out an exam. one woman said that her lawyer said that she wished more woman knew there rights. its unethical and can not hold up in court. i think its time woman start protesting.

Anonymous, I agree women should start protesting – meeting force with force. There is evidence available on the harms being done to women, but it is being buried and ignored in many cases. At least in Canada now the task force is recommending screening should not begin until women are 25. Might not see that in the U.S. anytime soon though. And I agree much of what they claim regarding women’s health is not based on evidence.

Sue * I tried to order from that christianrx.com website only to find, when I’d tried to check out, that they demand a doctor’s prescription for birth control pills, so you may wish to cross them off the list. The entire purpose of buying birth control pills online is to BYPASS doctors and their perverted requirements. These pills are NOT harmful in the sense that one could overdose on them. I find it continuously sad to hear and read about women doling out their pills and skipping a day, here and there, in order to stretch their prescriptions because they dread seeing their doctors and being forced into more exams for a new, yearly prescription.

I’m going on 23, my family and I rarely ever visit the doctors office, unless something is clearly wrong. I’ve never undergone one of these vaginal exams, and I don’t plan to ever do so unless it is necessary. I think women should have the option of having these tests done, it should be made clear that no one is going to force it on us, and it’s our choice(or rather, it should be). I’ve read comments on here of girl’s experiences, and it sounds violating…someone has a cyst removed from their back, and needs a pelvic exam?! This society is corrupt, and the medical field is a money-making business, like everything else.

The damage that’s been done and is being done in the name of “healthcare” is shocking, it also, destroys our quality of life – women “managing” health problems because they fear seeing a doctor and the inevitable, “when was your last pap test/pelvic exam?”…or they’re forced to buy birth control over the internet or drive down to Mexico.
These medical barriers cause enormous harm and treat women as lesser human beings, as mere bodies to be manipulated and used by the medical profession.
The forums are full of women traumatized and damaged by these exams/testing…so many posts from teenagers and young women terrified of “their first pelvic exam” and sadly, some mothers make it their responsibility to get their daughter to her first pelvic exam.

That exam is getting earlier and earlier…after pap testing recommendations were scaled back, ACOG conveniently decided that even younger girls should attend for an annual exam, “that might not include a pelvic exam”…but appears to include a visual inspection of the genitals “to ensure the girl is developing normally”…are boys expected to have their genitals examined to ensure they’re developing normally?
There is NO evidence backing up the need for these exams…IMO, they can only lead to distress and harm.
IMO, this is an attempt to groom girls at an early age to accept this life-long intrusion on the healthy female body…to brainwash girls to believe they must have these exams or die an early, preventable death.
Many older women have endured excess all their lives and are convinced their children must do the same thing. It will take a lot to convince these women that these exams are unhelpful, unnecessary and potentially harmful. I can’t imagine the pain when it finally dawns that the profession has used them to boost profits….in the worst possible way.
The healthy female body should be embraced, valued and protected, not used as medical fodder to maximize profits.

Tim Rowe is one of Canada’s leading experts in reproductive health. He’s been arguing for years that selling the Pill by prescription is outmoded and paternalistic. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to buy the Pill as easily as you buy Aspirin – or condoms.

… This exam [pelvic] has nothing to do with the Pill anyway. It’s just a convenience for the doctor. In fact, there’s no more reason to have a pelvic exam before you get the Pill than there is for a man to have his testicles inspected before he uses condoms. (And how many men would put up with that?)

… the benefits of greater access to the Pill would be huge. Apart from preventing unwanted pregnancies, it also reduces the risk of uterine and ovarian cancer by 50 per cent or more. Some experts say it should be available over the counter for its cancer-reducing effects alone.
… Some doctors worry that if women didn’t have to come in to get the Pill, they’d skip their Pap smears.

… So why not in the United States and Canada? “Extortion,” says Ms. Postrel. For pharmaceutical companies, over-the-counter approval would be costly. Doctors would lose patients. Pharmacists would lose dispensing fees.

Exactly! It is all about what is more profitable for doctors and pharmaceutical companies, and what is cheaper and more convenient for the medical systems. It is never about what is better for women. Even the damned pap smears – they are imposed on women because it is more convenient and profitable for the medical system, not because they are good for women.

If anyone really cared about women’s heath, HPV primary self-testing would be easily available, with an option to test anonymously, and there would be an HPV test for men too.

But so far, men are told not to worry about HPV at all, and women are told that there is nothing better than having pap smears for most of their lives, and coerced into having tools regularly shoved into their vaginas and their cervixes scraped under the threat of cervical cancer.

Of course none of the controlling powers wants to sell the Pill over the counter. How else can they keep their profits and control women? Men would never allow their genitals to be inspected and monitored, therefore to keep access to people’s sexual life, the system has to keep holding women under control.

To say women might skip their pap test if the Pill was available OTC shows how warped the thinking is in women’s “healthcare”….it’s like saying, “men won’t have prostate checks unless we put condoms and Viagra on script”… No one would accept that statement, yet so many accept that thinking for women.
ALL cancer screening is elective and legally and ethically requires our informed consent, it can never be required for anything. I’d challenge any doctor saying otherwise…it says to me they’re either unethical or incompetent.

I just want to say that I completely agree with you, and I thought that the way pap tests are approached was strange, even before I knew there were other women like me! Maybe we can make a difference…

Anyway, I really appreciate the list of online pharmacies. I copied it into a document, and I’ve been going through it, trying to find one that works for me. Unfortunately, I’ve had no luck yet. Either they don’t ship to Canada (where I live), or you need a Visa card (I only have a Mastercard), or they say they take Mastercard but when you click the option, it says that option is “temporarily” unavailable. One accepts bank wire transfers, but I don’t think my bank does that. Not as far as I can tell, anyway.

I was wondering if the person who created this list, or the owner of this blog, would mind if I copied the list into the “Against Gyn Exams” Facebook page? I would like to do that and add my notations about whether I was able to get any of these to work for me. Perhaps others who try it could also leave comments noting their experiences. Please let me know. Thanks!

Tanya thank you for this information, it is great you are sharing the process of how it is going as you attempt to order online, it could help others in the same situation. All I did was publish this list, it was Torrance who did the work of searching for online birth control sources. It is okay with me if you want to share this list if it is okay with Torrance. As far as I know it is fine to cite from online sources as long as you reference the source/site but I appreciate you asking. I hope you keep us updated here/over on Blogcritics as well as on Facebook. Also, Torrance might be able to help with any difficulties ordering.

Okay, well I have put a document up on the Facebook group, but I will remove it if Torrance wants me to. There are some dead links in that list.

I am almost to the end of the list, and so far, still no luck. Maybe if I had a Visa. Although I have encountered so many obstacles with this so far that I feel like even if I had a Visa, there would be some other problem that would prevent me from ordering.

I went on the pill when I was a teen. I was still a virgin but went on them just in case. The doctor in the small town I lived in only gave me three months worth and told me I would need a pelvic exam before he would renew the prescription. The prospect of having to go through the exam helped me decide the pill wasn’t for me. Condoms have always worked well for me – plus if there’s ever an accident there is always the morning after pill. But I know it’s not the solution for everyone, plus some women take the pill for other reasons than contraception.

Yeah, that’s probably a step forward for Australia, but there are conditions, of course. Because we silly women can’t be trusted to take care of ourselves, you know. I think pharmacists can do that here in Canada, too, but they will only do maybe a month’s worth (if that), and then they insist you go get a prescription.

I would happily go off the Pill if I could, and never deal with any of this ever again! But once you’re on them, it’s hard on your body to go off of them. Last time I tried, I developed very bad menorrhagia. The only thing that made it stop was the Pill. 😦

I have found out that Canadians can buy prepaid Visa cards at the post office, though, so I’m going to get one of them and then try the links that accept Visa.

Tanya I hope the plan works! It just isn’t right that doctors keep demanding the exams when they are clearly not medically indicated. This article sums it up well:Abuse may be encouraged by the system
Submitted by john davies on August 31, 2012 – 8:57am.

When the ‘pill’ (oral contraceptive) was first widely available in the 1970s, the drug companies crafted guidelines for its prescription that justified a prolonged sexual assault for any male doctor that wished to take advantage. It was common for females wanting the pill (some of whom were children, requiring it for non-sexual reasons), to be forced to do a striptease in front of the doctor, and then, when naked, have their breasts groped for an extended period.

The drug guidelines allowed just about every form of touching and questioning a perverted doctor could wish for, and what’s more, the same was allowed every few months when the prescription was renewed.

Did every doctor use the opportunity of the pill to abuse their patients? Of course not. But, remember, the pill, which was not ‘medicine’ treating an illness, was required by very many extremely healthy young women at the beginning of their sexual life- and this was putting temptation beyond compare in front of a generation of male doctors.

In many European countries, this practice continues, where women are expected to strip naked in front of the male doctor, and stay fully naked, even for questioning and exam stages that require no bodily access at all. This process, while a treat for some bad doctors, is designed to make people submissive and pliable to ‘authority’, which is why the more forceful populations of English-speaking nations no longer tolerate this behaviour by doctors.

The intimate medical inspection of any Human beyond early childhood is very controversial if that inspection is done to a person without any previous signs of disease or injury. Certainly, the examination of the external genitalia of patients who did not previously suggest they thought they had a problem there is almost always going to be abusive, and without medical validity. When doctors got to grope every single young adult that was forced to appear before them (with no medical justification at all- which is why such school exams no longer occur in countries like the UK), latent abusive tendencies were bound to be activated in a significant proportion of doctors.

When doctors are told they are allowed to touch the clitoris of a female, or the penis of a male, or ask intimate sexual questions (obviously in situations where the patient has not previously suggested a problem in those areas), the doctor is being programmed to be abusive. Add to this the fact that doctors are clever enough to be extremely manipulative, if they so wish, and are protected against legal action by a raft of extremely powerful and influential professional bodies, and you craft a nightmare.

Go read about the Mormon doctor who spent a whole career abusing a town of victims, from young children to the oldest women. Go read about one of the highest men in Australia’s medical community, who made a speciality of subjecting young, attractive flight-stewardesses to prolonged sexual assault in the name of a regular medical inspection.

Yes, It’s only a very limited supply, if you run out and can’t see a doctor for 2 weeks.
So it’s far from full OTC access, you still need to see a doctor for the initial consult and a review that confirmed the suitability of that Pill and only that brand can be dispensed AND only enough to cover you until you can get back to the doctor. Our doctors were outraged by this limited access.
Control here is very important, this is the consult that usually triggers the pap test pressure and some women assume they need them if they’re on the Pill making it easier for doctors and their targets.
I even found Glen Street Medical Clinic in WA boldly and incorrectly say on their website that women on the Pill “need” pap tests. So some doctors still link the two unrelated things. It means some women are being misled into pap tests which negates consent. I made a complaint, but received no response. When the program calls for serious over-screening and you’re paid to achieve targets, you need to keep women on a short leash.
It seems it’s easier to order the Pill online down here, but I fear if the authorities work this out and if enough women go down that path and threaten the program, they might block that option, “for our own good”.
I read a post online recently, an American woman decided to holiday in Mexico and came back with her Pills purchased OTC. Not surprising she’s decided it might be a regular long weekend…she felt the expense was worth it to avoid that exam. Not only is the coercion hard to stomach, but the exam risks your health, and cancer screening should be our decision. From memory though she lived in Texas, so it was not that far away.
When everyone says these exams are unnecessary for the Pill, more should be done to stop medical coercion. The doctors who force guidelines, quickly ignore them when they don’t suit their agenda.

I’m a little curious/confused about something–are there countries where you can buy birth control pills OTC, without a prescription? What we need, if so, are smugglers, lol!

It INFURIATES me that women are treated like this. I want to find out more about informed consent laws as they pertain to pap testing in Canada, but I can’t find anything. ANY information that isn’t “HAVE PAP TESTS OR YOU WILL DIE A HORRIBLE AND PREVENTABLE DEATH AND IT WILL BE ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!eleventy!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1” is hard to come by.

Tanya smuggling isn’t a bad idea! I can see it now, women driving back from Mexico with birth control pills taped to the bottom of the car and hidden in the trunk under the tequila. I have looked into the legalities of informed consent and how it relates to having health care withheld when women refuse paps, but it is a bit vague. Bottom line seems to be related to an old boys club mentality that prevails in law and government, and that might be the main reason doctors are getting away with how they treat women.

From the patient’s bill of rights it states:Individual rights and entitlements, on the other hand, refer to the application of the health care system at the patient or consumer level; in other words, what individuals are entitled to and can expect at various stages of the health care system when they interact with health care providers and institutions. These rights include rights to information, privacy, confidentiality, and consent to treatment.http://publications.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/BP/prb0131-e.htm
So the right to consent is clear . . . but women are not being offered information or consent in regards to paps. Maybe we need to start calling 911 and reporting attempted assault when doctors attempt to coerce us into unwanted vaginal exams?

Elizabeth I’m not surprised the doctors were outraged at even limited access, it must have scared them. I’m glad you made a complaint about the clinic stating women “need” to have paps if on the pill. The boldness with which they were advertising shows blatant disregard for research and recommendations from ACOG, etc. not to mention women’s rights, which they clearly think they are above. It’s a great idea to combine a vacation to Mexico with a pill shopping spree, but look at the lengths women are having to go to.

They state:
21. Provide your patients with the information
they need to make informed decisions about their
medical care,
24. Respect the right of a competent patient to
accept or reject any medical care recommended.

If a Doctor does not respect your right to refuse PAPs (or any tests) they are violating their ethics and if they persist they are engaging in coercion which is counter to informed consent which again is violating their ethics. If this happens you can report them to the Canadian Medical Association.

Thank you for that link, ADM! That’s another good one. Maybe I should print these out and highlight the pertinent parts, and then bring them with me when I go to the doctor. I wonder what they’d do? LOL

Now again, if they say that they will respect my right to refuse a pap, but they won’t write me a prescription if I don’t get one, is that coercion? It seems like it to me, but is it legally?

Haha, I’m from a small town known for it’s Rum Running during Prohibition–perhaps it’s in my nature, but I’d be a willing bcp smuggler! :p

Thank you for the link to the patient’s Bill of Rights. I will be interested to read it. It does sound a bit vague…I can see them saying that you don’t have to consent, but then the doctor doesn’t have to prescribe your birth control. Which to me, is coercion, but I doubt that they see it that way.

Tanya you’ve got my vote! Doctors dance around the issue of informed consent by stating the woman is free to go elsewhere for birth control when the woman declines a pap/vaginal exam/STD testing, but if ALL doctors do this then where exactly is the woman supposed to go? Saying that a woman is free to go elsewhere is essentially the same as denying the woman informed consent. The woman is not “free”, and the woman has limited options.

Women’s rights to privacy and bodily autonomy being better respected in Mexico than in the United States? Who would have thought it with all the spouting on “democracy” and “civil liberties”. TOTAL hypocrisy. This makes me glad that I live in the UK. Things are beginning to change here. Informed consent and women standing up for themselves is being taken seriously.

Women who are not happy with the situation need to start standing up for themselves because things will not change otherwise.

This is why this does not happen to men, because they would not put up with it.

But women don’t have to put up with it either – all they need to do is state their legal rights and threaten to take legal action. I’m confident this harrassment would die out if more women did this but most just put up with it – why? It baffles me.

Anyway, I know this is an old thread but have been researching the law on this here in the UK.

That Patient Bill of rights is invaluable. Women need to be referring to this document in the consult room! It could save them from an unneccessary pap and pelvic exam, potential sexual harrassment and harmful treatment!

I agree with you Apocalyptic Queen. The individual woman will have better success standing up for her rights when in the consult room. There she is facing only one opponent, but if it makes its way to the court room she is facing many opponents. Laws written and defended by men, in defense of a profession largely comprised of men. What you said in a previous comment about policy, about just one successful case, rings true: “authorities would fear opening the “floodgates” for a flurry of cases ending in prosecution or compensation, as well as the programme itself being left in tatters”.

I don’t know if you follow the birthrights movement, but if you do you might have heard about a case involving a woman named Kelly who was the victim of a forced episiotomy. The entire scenario was captured on video and she wants to press charges – but she can’t find a lawyer who will take her case. I haven’t heard of a woman pressing charges against a doctor due to unnecessary pap/pelvic exam coercion and related harms, but that might be due to women being unable to find someone willing to take the case.

The thing is that this can always be moved against without there being a concept of lawsuits after the fact- not as good as retribution being included, I know- but there would be the preclusion of these things in the future.

I believe that these things should be forced on those that did them and/or be executed for it, but courts don’t favor things like that anyway. You’re not really going to be getting the proper revenge through those channels to begin with. Although it seems they’re more than okay with dealing out all kinds of unofficial things when THEY get pissed off about something (smuggling, for instance)- then again, there’s the point that if someone’s going to drop a hammer on you that you don’t have coming they’d probably do it for nothing anyway.

I think there’s more to it than the whole “male system” thing. Sure, it’s there- but plenty of women are cut from the same cloth. Look at the story of Medusa, for instance. Doesn’t necessarily have to be a true story for actual situation to follow similar patterns. Medusa got raped & Athena went after her in reaction to this. It was a double attack, really. There’s the initial situation, but also that there’s a second attack in connection to this.

Another thing is that I very much do think that the law enforcement community tends to be in favor of things like this- if nothing else, it gives them a vocational applicability. They’d probably feel like they were occupationally dying without various issues being present & certainly if they weren’t the ones to handle it being prevented or reciprocated. They pull all kinds of shit that runs a similar & sometimes exact parallel to these things or simply put people in an environment where these things can & do get imposed behind closed doors. Doesn’t make any difference if they feel guilt after the fact, it’s still what occurs.

Hello Sue – thank you for your response. I agree with you and also agree with Alex. Rather than being a male vs female thing, I rather think the problem lies with the medical profession as a “community”. As a “community”, they would band together to say, this patient gave consent. The medical procedures we carry out are aligned to general standards of care, practised by 80% of fellow practitioners in the country etc. It is the reason they have a “chaperone” (or, alibi) supervising the exam to make sure they don’t fall “victim” to claims of malpractice.

I’m a UK resident so am not really “au fait” with US or Canadian law, although I have conducted research into Federal and State laws in the past to assist a gentleman who was working on a pro-bono case.

Although I have a UK law degree, I am not a lawyer and I work in social policy, but listening to these stories make me wish I’d have finished my legal training! I haven’t ruled out going back into it in the future and I have undertaken legal research to assist individuals in the past who have requested my help.

Is Kelly a US or Canadian citizen? It sounds to me like a potential case of battery and assault in both criminal and torts. Has she reported the matter to the Police? Was it a case of coercion or did they operate without her knowledge?

It seems to me that, as the case may never have been tested in court, a lawyer might be reluctant to take it on. If it was done without her knowledge, it might be viewed as a clear and cut case of potential battery – proving that consent was obtained under duress might be more difficult.

Is it possible to qualify for free legal assistance? Some high profile lawyers will offer to do pro-bono work.

If she is in possession of the video, she must hang onto it as evidence. Furthermore, anything else that she can use to back herself up must be kept and documented.

I’d advise trying to get hold of a national register of lawyers, especially those specialising in medical law. Could she possibly make an appeal, advertising a request for legal assistance in national, state and local newspapers?

I’d also advise that this is reported to a Medical Board or Council (if this hasn’t been done already), enclosing copies (never the originals) of supporting evidence and documentation – referring them to the Patient Bill of Rights, ACOG and any other Medical guidelines which state that this practice is unethical.

A related case that has made its way to the courts is titled Rinat Dray vs. Staten Island Hospital, et al. Rinat Dray was forced to undergo a cesarean section. Excerpt about her story from Human Rights in Childbirth:

Neither doctor ever advised Ms. Dray of any particular signs or symptoms of danger to her baby. Instead, she was told that her uterus could rupture, a known risk of VBAC that she understood, and informed that the doctors found that risk unacceptable. Nor did they get a court order to override her right to refuse surgery. Instead, the doctors called the hospital’s lawyer to ask if they could force her into a c-section. The hospital lawyer told them to go ahead. Both doctors then returned to Ms. Dray’s hospital room, with nurses, and informed her that she was being taken to the operating room. Dr. D said, “We got the approval to do it,” and ordered the nurses to push her to the operating room. As she wept on the operating table and begged the doctors not to do this, Dr. G told her, “Don’t speak.”

Ms. Dray wrote in her affidavit, “Dr. G was rough during the surgery, almost as if to punish me. He ended up severely injuring my bladder, cutting it from the back and front.” A healthy, non-distressed baby was delivered with APGARs of 9 and 9. Ms. Dray, on the other hand, was hospitalized for 6 days after the surgery and suffers a “variety of urinary and other pelvic symptoms” to this day. She wishes to have more children, but she fears getting pregnant again. A fourth pregnancy also carries significantly increased health risks to her and her baby, because of the prior three surgeries, including potentially life-threatening placental abnormalities and higher risk of stillbirth. http://humanrightsinchildbirth.com/amicusbriefpart1/

According to federal law here in the states you are supposed to be able to bring back 90 days of non-scheduled/narcotic drugs for your personal use. I do know people who hop over to Mexico to do that and birth control pills are OTC there…

Its terrible woman even have to do that. No penetrating no birth control. Absolutely discussing and should be against the law for doctors to do that. Its like one of those things hardly any one questions.

Wow, why isn’t birth control available without a prescription in Canada and the US, then? So stupid.

I’ve recently been simply refusing a pap test. I managed to get a backlog of pills somehow at the pharmacy, so I haven’t had to ask for a prescription for awhile, but when I do, I will be simply refusing again. I feel like they’re starting to push a little less, so maybe things are changing? One can hope! I am only able to get a prescription for three months at a time with my refusal, but it’s better than nothing, or having to go to different doctors and lie about it like I did before.

Hi Tanya. I don’t see where or how birth control pills are available over-the-counter in California and Oregon. That has to be some sort of a one-time-only glitch. Birth control pills, by my prediction, will NEVER EVER become over-the-counter in America. Doctors like getting their jollies lying to women, getting their free looks and feels, controlling women and THEN they get paid once they have forced women into unnecessary exams. Women gynecologists could have put a stop to these forced exams years ago; they don’t endure them, themselves, yet they go along with the male-dominated gynecological industry: NOTHING unless they are PAID and force women to endure Byzantine, gruesome, trauma-inducing exams. Now don’t get me wrong: SOME women actually love the entire experience; they claim it makes them feel like empowered women. They don’t even see how their power has been taken from them. And now that I will turn 49 next month,
I get screamed at even more by women when I say I have NEVER gone to a gynecologist. Good that they are there if you actually need one and unfortunately, in America, you are forced to undergo any barbaric torturous exams if Heaven forbid you get pregnant. I am screamed at left and right, by men * who find all women are repugnant * and women * and worse, online, as I tireless post chronic statistics; like Elizabeth has also repeatedly advocated: Women scream the loudest so we are going in circles of finally having easy access to birth control pills which have NEVER killed ANYBODY, including children who’ve accidentally ingested their mother’s Pills. That is why I have very happily been the guinea pig in buying birth control pills online and I’ve always posted successful links to overseas (or Mexican) pharmacies I have used. I will NEVER stop pointing out to women they do NOT have to undergo the pejorative, belittling, degrading commentary and forced coercion into being examined. You don’t like how a doctor is trying to force you into something you inherently know is wrong? You get up and walk out. I walked out of a dentist’s office in 1999 and never went back; I have thoroughly ceased going to doctors since December of 1987 because they literally were foaming at the mouth to get into my pants and screamed at me and berated me and I stood my ground. ALL American women go through this. At the very least it is harassment; at worst, it is nothing short of medical rape.

Hi Tanya
Welcome to the forum.
You can get the Pill over the counter in California and Oregan, so might be worth taking a trip. I’m sure other US States will follow…
I think it’s happened in the States because your doctors were behaving so badly, using the need for a script to coerce women into all sorts of excess, and the fact you still have so many unplanned pregnancies. I think more than half of all pregnancies in the States are still unplanned. Doctors making it hard to get the Pill no doubt adds to that statistic, you find women who walk out with no script because they refused the excess, others don’t use the Pill because they refuse to have invasive exams to get the Pill or argue with a doctor every few months and they may therefore, use less reliable methods.

More women are refusing to submit to pap testing, pelvic and breast exams to get the Pill, some buy it online, others while they’re overseas…and doctor shopping is popular too, go to doctors who do the right thing, a blood pressure test, your medical history and you have your script. Avoid the doctors who practice excess, the young women in my office actually spread the word, avoid her, use her etc. (but most get it online now)
The Pill has been proven safe over decades and should have come off script years ago….but the male-dominated medical profession saw an opportunity to take advantage and to boost their incomes at the same time.

I think it’s coercion. American and Canadian doctors have made “elective” cancer screening part of their convenient “standard of care” for the Pill.
The Pill has nothing to do with cancer screening. Why not make prostate screening part of the standard of care for Viagra? Why is it only women who face these doctor-made barriers?

It seems they reach for a “standard of care” that mandates pelvic and breast exams and pap testing for the Pill. (even though they’re not clinical requirements) This is no doubt because they see more risk FOR THEM with an un-screened patient developing cc or ovarian cancer etc, than being pursued because of much more likely over-treatment. It’s about them, not us. It’s outrageous AND the routine pelvic exam is not even a screening test for ovarian cancer or anything else.

I know defensive medicine is the norm in the States, but surely, they could simply ask you to sign a waiver…explain the risks of not testing and get your signature. (of course, no one mentions the much higher risks WITH testing) More American doctors are prescribing the Pill without the excess though, and I don’t think they see the need for waivers. Do you get a waiver if your patient decides against a colonoscopy? This hyper-sensitivity seems unique to women’s “healthcare”.
PP have HOPE and I know it’s a bit hit and miss, some pressure you during the consult or just “delay” your first exam. You’d probably hit a brick wall at some point, but some seem to offer a genuine HOPE program, do they get women to sign waivers?

I found some discussion on a legal forum about this issue and you get the usual responses from the public, but a couple of lawyers responded and basically said, you have the right to decline any test or exam, the doctor has a right not to treat you/prescribe or keep you as a patient if you refuse the standard of care. They suggested finding another doctor. I know that can be difficult in the States with your insurance companies dictating the use of certain Clinics.

In Australia it’s different, it’s a try-on, I doubt many doctors would be stupid enough to let you walk out without Pills if they thought you’d make a complaint, because they’d be in trouble. How can you justify denying a woman the Pill because she declines an elective screening test?
The thing is, the issue probably rarely arises…most women assume they must have pap tests, it has something to do with the Pill, give in and put up with the testing to get the Pill or feel angry about the situation, but make no complaint. So doctors (I suspect) rarely face a firm NO, I’m leaving and making a complaint.

I wonder if you contacted this doctor he might have some ideas. I know he offered to contact a woman’s doctor when he refused to prescribe the Pill without exams and a pap test. (it turned out she was just wondering why women faced this barrier and didn’t actually need BC)

Perhaps, you need an online list of doctors who follow the evidence, not a convenient standard of care that puts their interests first. It would make it easier for women…those who can access the Pill without the extras could list their doctor’s details. Can you imagine? I think as doctors see their waiting rooms empty, more of them would see the game is over, time to start treating women like competent adults. So many doctors “say” women should have access to the Pill without these exams, but know what’s happening in practice, surely it’s time to do something about it? Name and shame? Over the counter access?

It is a truly great idea, to make an online list of doctors who truly respect the evidence and the patient’s decision!

Perhaps, we could have a dedicated post in this blog, sorted by country and state, an the owner of the blog could update the list as more comments with doctor;s name appear.

Otherwise, people should use RateMDs.com site more often and leave comments about each and every doctor they see, telling the others about their experience with the doctor, positive or negative. This way we can change the way the medical system treats us! Nasty doctors will see their waiting rooms empty, eventually. And the good ones will be known, so that the patients had a clear direction where to go should they need medical assistance.

If we don’t start naming the offenders, we will never change the faulty system.

Al yes, I just replied to Tanya (see below) with the same idea of RateMDs. I don’t think it is legal to post doctor’s names with information on a blog, but it would be great if it was. If anyone knows about this please let us know. Otherwise some information left on RateMDs would work well too. Great minds 🙂

Hello, everyone. I have numerous bits of advice & observations that may help with this sort of thing. First off: Dynamics don’t change because standards do. That’s become a personal saying of mine. ANY interface with sexual areas (visually or physcially) as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack. It doesn’t matter if these are the properties of a medical procedure, it’s just an iatrogenic variation at that point (a word not everyone is familiar with, perhaps a bit of a problem-helper, in itself- harder to articulate things). If a doctor were to poison someone with a needle, that’s still murder. In this case, it’s an abusive act (specifically, a penetrative one) with additional ramifications (a massive amount of risk & inaccuracy is a point all on it’s own- they’re not supposed to be purveying things that are untrue or unsafe, anyway).

Two: That the mechanics of what happens don’t change because of designation. Overall, the structure of the situation is an EXTANT CIRCUMSTANCE (“reality is what it is,” a familiar saying). Circumstances constitute the situation & circimstances are not affected by designation. If reality was really formed by recognition, nobody would get hit by a car they didn’t see coming or drown if they tried to walk on the water (or get attacked by people they thought were trustable, either). What’s somebody going to argue? That they think by adjucation (thinking, “reality is what I SAY it is”)? They do a nice job looking crazy, at that point.

Three: Your body, your rules. That should be an apparent point, but sometimes not. The situation is formed according to YOUR discretion. Your decisions construct the alignment of things. If things are going in a direction you aren’t cool with, that’s the end of it. Overall, medical quality is determined by patient satisfaction, not some kind of acedemic value, anyway. That helps with countering the “you’re wrong/bad grade” approach. We could get into quite a long discussion about social engineering (lying, guilt trips, rushing people around so there’s no time to think, definitive phrasing= “What you WILL be having, what we’re GOING to be doing- phrasing as a statement not a question- which would be something that requires a counter-statement to “veto” it) and I’ll likely add to this later, but for now this would be useful to know. The phrase “I elect to omit/decline (whatever it is)” might work. So might “I refuse to have (whatever it is).” Might be a good idea to have someone with you as back-up that won’t spin around on you (potentially for safety, I’ve heard of threats & intimidation being used, as well as coercion & social engineering).

Whatever angle of compulsion you’re dealing with, it’s still someone trying to applying influence of this nature at their discretion. It’s easy to get lost in nonsense (sometimes that’s the point of nonsense), but it still boils down to this being the situation. It’s an impsed situation. Any variation of “it’s not up to you, we implement our own decisions,” is wrong & it makes them generically untrustable, as well. Be more aggressive in your defense, is the advice I’ll end this off on (for now).

It’s perfectly legal. Example: On the Mothering.com forum, women are constantly updating a list of doctors who are no-vax friendly (the dr’s names, addresses, phone numbers and even faxes). If you’re worried about it, just verify the doctor is ok with it. There’s really no reason for the dr to refuse since the insurances will still pay the dr for writing the ‘script.

Well, I have a small update. I got a prepaid Visa at Safeway (that was convenient!), and ordered a year’s worth of pills online today. I ordered from this site: rxpro-24×7.com/. I confess to being a little bit nervous about ordering online–how do I know that what I’m getting actually is the pill? Also, they were really, really cheap. REALLY cheap. I think shipping cost more than the pills. I’m also not really sure about this particular site–I have no concrete reason, but I just feel nervous about it. I feel nervous about any of the ones that push ED pills, I guess. I might just be being paranoid. Let’s hope so. I’d be interested to hear of anyone else’s experience with ordering bcp online.

Apparently, there have been problems with some companies that prevent them from shipping to Canada. Customs sends them back, for some reason. I am somewhat uncomfortable with this–I’m not really thrilled that the government is pawing through my mail. I guess they need to be safe, but…yeah. It just doesn’t seem quite right. This company that I ordered from sends the pills out in smaller packages of 120, I believe. So I should get two packages, a few days apart. They say this helps with the Customs issue. I hope I don’t get in any kind of trouble.

Now, the guilt. I really feel guilty that I want to avoid having a stranger poking around in my bits. I guess I have been brainwashed. I’d like to get over it, but I don’t know how. I am also somewhat terrified that I will get (or already have) cervical cancer, and will die a horrible, excruciating, preventable death, all because I wanted to have some control over my own body. Any tips/suggestions on dealing with these feelings would be appreciated!

I also have some news about the Delphi screener. I wrote to them, asking if it could be available in Canada, and they are looking into making it available for women to order online (and then ship back to Europe for analysis–because that’s what kind of lengths we have to go through for this sort of thing). I have asked to be added to a list so that I find out about it as soon as it’s available. I will keep you posted.

Sorry about my extremely long-winded post. I have a few more questions, for anyone who might know–it is very interesting to me that the Pill is available in Mexico without a prescription (I assume that’s what you mean by OTC?). What other countries, worldwide, provide the pill over-the-counter without a prescription? Anyone know? I love the suggestion of an online list of doctors who follow the evidence in this regard. Let’s set one up! I don’t know of any, so I have nothing to contribute. My other question is, how is the HPV test done? Is it a blood test, or is it an invasive pelvic test like the pap? And if it IS a blood test, why don’t they just send us for those tests, and only give women who are positive the option to have the pap?

Tanya, there are a couple of different HPV tests. There used to be one made by ThinPrep (company that does Pap kits in the USA) that used urine to test, but most of them require tissue/fluid from the vagina. The one that is currently offered by ThinPrep is done at the same time a pap specimen is taken.

However the self-screeners like the Delphi are just that: you take the sample yourself – no doctors poking around up there – and it’s like using a tampon.

There actually IS a blood test that is far more sensitive than the pap: Cervical Specific Antigen. It detects changes from bona fide cervical cancer, not “cell changes,” as well. It was approved by the FDA in America almost TEN YEARS AGO but doctors still don’t offer it. Why? It’s far less of a money maker than an annual pap and all the unnecessary followup for biopsy. That’s why.

As for being worried about cervical cancer: one thing that might help is to look at the actual lists of most common cancers. CC doesn’t scratch the top ten for any of them. Right now you have a higher risk of getting pancreatic cancer, ovarian cancer, kidney cancer, lymphoma…many other types of cancer. You don’t worry about those, do you? You know they’re rare and you don’t worry that you’re about to get sick with them. Cervical cancer is even LESS COMMON than those other rare cancers. I couldn’t find the stats for Canada, but here are some for the UK and the USA.

Okay, so the Delphi Screener *is* a test for HPV? I thought it was a test for cervical abnormalities, like the pap.

As to the CSA test–I have heard of that before, and it sounded promising. However, that article you linked to is from 2005, and the website for Onconix no longer exists. I have seen articles saying that the CSA test isn’t as accurate as they had previously thought. Now I don’t know how true that is, but I’m interested in learning more. Are there countries that offer it? What happened to Onconix?

I’m a little afraid of pancreatic cancer, just because it’s so bad. And I’m a worrywart. I worry more that someone I love will get it than that I will get it, though. No, I’m not really worried about any of the others.

Forcing women to go to doctor every tome they need the Pill means full waiting rooms and huge profits derived from unnecessary doctor visits, tests, checks, and possibly further investigations of “suspicious” cells and painful over-treatment. It’s not done to keep us healthy, it’s just the medical machine using us to make money.

Countries with free health care like Canada have a fee-for-service payment, so doctors are able to charge extra fees for every test they do:
“Of course, it must be pointed out that there always have been economic considerations in giving care, and that fee-for-service health insurance coverage has long been criticized for encouraging excessive and unnecessary care (i.e., a physician will order a whole battery of extra tests, knowing they are unnecessary or of marginal value, because the doctor will be paid extra for doing those tests for the patient)” http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/doctor/care/capitation.html So another way to avoid the pap or other vaginal exams might be to offer to pay them cash to make up for their lost extra fees when we say no to screening.

You know, I’ve heard that there are other places in Europe where that’s not the case. In Spain, Italy, and Portugal I think it’s over-the-counter. It seems to be that way (at least, to an extant) in Greece (there was some mention of it not being very common, but on some of the islands you can find it over-the-counter, too). By-the-way, not sure if you English women know this: it seems you can get the pill without any exams, you just have to sign a form that says you’re deciding to not have them (a waiver). That still doesn’t mean they won’t try to work an angle on you, though (especially if money’s involved). Don’t forget: there is such a thing as aggressive lesbianism & no one says “it’s two guys in a prison cell,” so a woman being involved won’t necessarily make matters better (maybe it just adds an “against orientation” aspect to it- of course, that never gets mentioned).

I was suprised to hear that they nag you so much there (in Australia, too- apparently). I wonder if any of your men have seen this (well, they’re not strictly your husbands are they? LOL). That seems like something worth pointing out, since you might be able to get some support that way. Here’s some advice on that:

Men tend to get VERY entrenched into an argument and if it’s counteracting an enemy, protecting someone they care about, AND something that gains them massive approval all at the same time- well that’s that isn’t it? Make a point of elaborating on mechanics, though (remember that point I made about getting entrenched & argumentive?). Really pointing out that this may not be something he’s heard about before, but this is him becoming informed. I know you having independant ability is a point, in itself- but that’s a source of “back-up” (actually calling it that can help) that some people don’t think of. A man’s not supposed to have a taste for compulsion & there’s nothing unmanly about pack loyalty (again, phrasing can be helpful). There is also the perk of being able to screw around without having to wear something every time (now it’s a loss of some serious funtime, too!). If he doesn’t care, that’s something important to know about him- isn’t it?

Having this same fight over & over might work, and not just with men. “My body, my rules & it doesn’t even work as advertised, anyway,” would probably trump-card whatever kind of argument you’re having with friends or relatives. I remember school omitting (and, thus, arguing) someone’s alignment on the situation (even if this was a post-attack situation!). Medical quality is determined by patient satisfaction, not some kind of academic value (never mind all the alternatives including self-testing, blood tests, and imaging/scans). You only live for so long, anyway- so if you elect to not include these things in your life, where’s the issue?

This is getting a bit long, I know, so I’ll cap it off with one more trick: Try to use every attempt to impose this situation on you as a motivation to counteract it. “Fuel for the fire,” if you will. This makes it a self-propelling situation (like a slip-knot tied to another slip-knot). No need to be a contradictive person, overall- you’re just using their momentum against them, like in a fight. It’s a provoked urge, not a categorical one.

Tanya, good luck, hope your Pills arrive safely. Don’t worry about being long-winded, I’m the Queen of long winded posts.
The HPV test is invasive, similar to a pap test, but there is a self-test option (as you know), currently being used by Dutch and other women, the Delphi Screener. (It’s also available in Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand and being rolled out in several other countries) Australian women can order it from Delphi Bioscience in Singapore, but hopefully, a local distributor will be sorted out shortly.
I know American doctors are doing HPV AND pap tests on women aged 30 and older, this doubling-up creates the most over-investigation. The HPV primary test should stand alone.
I doubt HPV self-testing will be offered in some countries, it’s not good for business and sadly, IMO, that’s what women’s healthcare is, BIG business. (in countries that don’t follow evidence based testing anyway)

Your last Q is spot-on…and I think there are a few factors, huge profits when you pap test all women every 2 or 3 years and biopsy/treat many of them, political factors etc…also, once these programs start, it’s hard to wind them back. Even after changes are made, many women/doctors stay with the old guidelines.
Note: the new Dutch program will take 95% of women aged 30+ OUT of pap testing, women will be offered 5 HPV primary tests or self-test (some will have just one or two) and that means the false positive/excess biopsy and over-treatment rates we see with population pap testing will plummet. We should also, see fewer women with damage to the cervix, so fewer premature babies, miscarriages, high risk pregnancies/cervical cerclage, c-sections etc
The new Dutch program will focus on the 5% aged 30 or older who are HPV+ and at risk, IMO, it will save more lives. We’re talking about HUGE sums lost to vested interests.

I’ve never had a pap test (I’m 55) and I don’t worry about cervical cancer. I focus on health and well-being, but if I worried about anything, I’d start with a real threat, like heart disease or lung/bowel cancer, all of them are FAR more likely than rare cervical cancer.
IMO, women have been trained to greatly fear this rare cancer, way out of proportion to the risk. Do you worry about thyroid cancer and check your neck every year? Well, that cancer occurs more often than cervical cancer, it poses a greater threat. (lifetime risk:1.03%)
How many women worry about colon and rectum cancer? Much more likely…lifetime risk, 4.96%
The lifetime risk of cervical cancer is LESS than 1% (0.65%)…so I think it’s important to understand the risks with and without testing.

Also, how old are you? Remember that Finland has the lowest rates of cc in the world and their program is 5 yearly from 30 to 60, 6-7 pap tests. I know some women worry if they’re “overdue”…and then you read they tested 2 years ago, they’re seriously over-screening!

I think knowledge is the key here…when you’re aware of the facts, the propaganda and scare campaigns have no effect, in fact, you note the misinformation. The Breast Screen people use a slogan, “1 in 9 will be effected by breast cancer”…sounds bad, but it’s highly misleading, they’ve included all ages up to old age. Risk rises with age, so someone 35 does not have a 1 in 9 risk, but that’s what some women will hear…from memory, the risk for a 50 year old is about 1 in 55 or 60. (these figures may also, be skewed, thanks to over-diagnosis)

I don’t have breast screening either, I went over the evidence and in the end, it was an easy decision. So I’d suggest you do your reading, knowledge is the key here.
It was the numbers that scared me with cervical screening (never released to women, I had to hunt for them)…near zero risk of cc v 77% lifetime risk of referral for colposcopy. (that also, usually means a biopsy, and for many, over-treatment) My younger sister went through a cone biopsy after a false positive pap test and colposcopy, it was a traumatic experience. The risk of over-treatment or excess biopsy is much higher than the risk of cervical cancer. Screening tests are never risk-free, they can lead to some ugly places. I think we should be advised of these risks “before” we test, it’s hard to assess the need for and the risks with “treatment” with a clear head…with an “abnormal” test result hanging over your head.

In the end it’s up to individual women, but it’s outrageous that women are pressured/coerced to test with no real information…screening should be our informed decision….to accept or decline as we see fit. If women want to test and are given all of the information, they might choose to follow something like the Finnish program which greatly reduces the risk of a false positive or they might seek out HPV primary testing or self-testing. Personally, if I wanted to test, I wouldn’t even consider a pap test without first testing for HPV. Why on earth would any woman want to spend a lifetime having unnecessary pap tests with the high risk of over-treatment?http://www.ocsotc.org/
(map showing countries that provide the Pill OTC. (no script))

I’m 34 (will be 35 in a few months), married, monogamous (pretty sure both of us are and always will be), and had one other previous partner (who I’m pretty sure WAS a cheater and he was probably a high risk for HPV). But by some miracle, I don’t seem to have caught anything obviously detectable from the ex. I don’t think I was ever tested for HPV, as far as I know. I would actually really like to know if I’m HPV+ or not.

Hi Tanya
Hope your Pills arrive safely.
I’ve always read there is no HPV test for men, but I doubt that can be right. We’re vaccinating boys now, the Gardasil program was extended last year, so I assume they must be able to test men.
I did read on my medical forum that the test involves a probe into the penis to scrape off some cells and that naturally, most men would be reluctant to have the test.
I thought that was interesting, there seems to be no consideration when it comes to women. They also, know that scare campaigns are less effective with men and it’s much harder to coerce men. On one forum a doctor felt it was also, much more likely to come back and bite you. I recall an American man who declined a rectal exam in emergency, sued the hospital for assault when they went ahead anyway. We need to do more of that…for too long women have given in, accepted coercion, pressure etc…
As more women refuse to be treated this way, we’re more likely to see change. Also, several American doctors are being vocal on this topic now and that will help a lot. I can’t believe how many articles are now appearing in the States in the WSJ and NYTimes, so many pieces on over-diagnosis, false positives, over-treatment, medical excess and coercion. Things are so bad and harmful in women’s healthcare in the States that they may see change before more moderate countries. Here there is very little critical discussion, I think few women here would be denied the Pill if they declined pap tests…so if a woman doesn’t want pap tests, she can usually find a way, although she’ll probably get a lecture. We may see that change if we introduce a call and recall system, which appears to likely. The UK saw some shocking conduct after the introduced their call and recall system, women were harassed, sacked as patients, ordered to attend counseling. Most of it is a try-in, but sadly, it seems most women give in at some point.
There is no pressure here to have pelvic and breast exams, they’re not recommended.
I know the Ibis Centre for Reproductive Health are pushing for OTC access for the Pill. America is likely to see it happen long before we do…and ACOG now support OTC access. I smell a rat there, I assume the shocking figures for unplanned pregnancies has forced their hand and perhaps, political pressure.
It is madness that you could allow doctors to place a huge and unnecessary barrier around something as important as birth control. It’s also, absurd to say screening for a rare cancer justifies this stance, not to mention it’s a shocking abuse of women’s rights.

I hope you’re right about things changing. I know you’re right about the breast and pelvic exams. The first time I went for my “Well Woman” exam, I had a pelvic (I had no idea that was going to happen!) and a breast exam (I think…I forget). Now it’s sort of hit and miss, but I don’t think there’s much pressure to have either of them. Not at my age, anyway. But, those are not the exams I object to. I object to having a speculum inserted into my vagina to crank it open. The very thought makes me want to pass out!

How come it’s okay to insert a probe into a woman’s vagina and scrape cells off her cervix, but it’s not okay to insert a probe into a man’s penis to scrape off cells. Never mind, it’s a rhetorical question. Shocking abuse of women’s rights, for sure!

http://www.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk/systemsandservices/ssd/downloads/cervical/contents/1-1intro#callrecall
The one thing that jumps out….control.
It’s like backing sheep into a corner to run them through flea rinse. All exits covered…
So women are registered with a clinic, are called for screening, if you don’t attend, you’re called again, no response, then your doctor gets a notice and another…you haven’t been screened. This means your file will be flagged so if you wander in with a cold they’ll try and screen you there and then, or you’ll get letters, perhaps, phone calls. Some women feel harassed…some avoid medical care.
The conduct of some doctors is outrageous, demanding non-screeners attend “counseling” at the clinic with one or two doctors (this is IMO, to intimidate and scare women into testing, it’s a try-on and women should refuse to attend and make a complaint/report the doctor) and some remove women from patient records.
So the print-out of unscreened women is in order with the remaining names sacked by the practice. Some nurses are handed the print-out and their job is to “chase” women. There is a health forum with a thread on chasing women, the discussion is quite shocking..they sound like police officers chasing escapees.
Our screening rates are falling…and some believe we need tighter controls, like a call and recall system.
It’s a shame more women don’t fight back, it’s an outrageous way to treat women, but it’s highly effective and gets more women screened.
To hell with informed consent and proper ethic standards.
Also, everything is computerized, so a woman can’t say I tested last week, a simple check will confirm she’s an unscreened woman. Liar!
The target payments received by doctors for pap testing, plus a call and recall system is bad news for women. It’s impossible (so I’m told) to officially opt-out forever, 4 years later the letters start again.
If it happens here, I’ll be testing the system, if my opt-out is not respected, they’ll be the ones receiving letters, from my solicitor.

You know, I was thinking, too, of the way my wishes haven’t been respected in this situation. Not only am I coerced to have the exam, but also, they will not listen to me if I do get it. I feel a LOT more comfortable if they use a small (child-sized) speculum, and I know they can do it because the first doctor to give me a pap test used a small one. Also, they won’t always agree to use lubrication on the speculum (ouch! See why I hate going and call it torture?). They say it can affect the results, which I think is a load of crap. So maybe if I start refusing and they ask me why, I’ll tell them just why I don’t want it.

Over the years, I have had several invitations to attend cervical screening. I have ignored all the invitations and the follow up letters that got increasingly more aggressive with their tone.

I have, without fail, at each and every visit to my GP or Nurse the question of screening raised. I have also had the pleasure of a doctor’s receptionist shout across the waiting room – “‘Mrs B – you are overdue for your smear test – do you want to make an appointment now?”.

I have had a Nurse ring me at home in an attempt to persuade me to screen.

I have had a discussion with a friend that works at another surgery as a HCP, and she tells me that there is a bonus to be paid for every under-screened women that is captured on the couch!!

I read words on health forums such as “non-compliant”, opportunistic screening, aggressive chasing – quotes from Nurses such as “94% of eligible women at my surgery are screened- I’m aiming for 100%”. Shocking. Which part of NO do you not understand?

Hi Jane
They’d been ”harrassing” me with their letters and reminders (highlighted in red! hahaha). I was so fed up with it all that I wrote an e-mail to them telling the truth how awful I feel. In a couple of weeks I got a letter with a piece of paper to sign that I don’t agree to participate in the programme. The last sentence said: AND I AM AWARE THAT NOT PARTICIPATING IN CERVICAL SCREENING (something like that – I don’t remember the words exactly) CAUSES DEATHS. I signed it but I wrote, IN CAPITAL LETTERS, under this stupid sentence: I DO NOT AGREE AT ALL THAT NOT PARTICIPATING IN IT CAUSES DEATHS. I wish I’d added: AND YOU ARE USING THE SCARE TACTICS – I really should have done so.
When my second child was born I did not go for the post natal check up as I was afraid they would try to talk me into having the horrible pap which I would, of course, clearly and firmly have opposed to but, fortunately, I cancelled the appointment and sighed with relief.
I must admit that I dread to think of going to the GP with anything – a sore throat, temperature, feeling unwell, just whatever – I would explode there if I was asked the question why I don’t participate in ”this”.

BTW – if I were you, I would write a very serious complaint to the clinic about that Nurse. Have you thought of going anywhere further with it? Why not make her / them treat you confidentially?

Jane & Jola,
Interesting that the NHS has a nice website on informed consent, yet this is happening at the surgery level. Perhaps, they need to be reminded that words are just words, and action is long overdue, many doctors don’t “get it”…that is, if “they’re serious” about respecting informed consent for women. (and not just engaging in an exercise to placate advocates for informed consent for women) Or, is it they fear legal action with the outrageous conduct going on around the country, so they can point to their little website if a woman points the finger or speaks to her solicitor or the media? Isn’t it incredible that we need to remind doctors of our legal right and their ethical obligations?
Here is an interesting response by Andrew Rouse to an article by Dr Angela Raffle on informed consent for cancer screening.
Rogue doctors power drug with pap testing and chasing targets need to be pulled into line.http://www.bmj.com/content/320/7238/872.1?tab=responses
Jola, congratulations on standing firm during a pregnancy, that’s when many women are “caught” by the system. Along with the consult for contraception, pre-natal and post-natal care are also, targeted by the pap police.

A table put together by Andrew Rouse.
The table gives a clear visual indication of the chance of a woman surviving for 10 years if she does – or doesn’t – have her routine Pap smears. It is apparent that to an individual woman the absolute benefit of having a Pap smear is small.

Table 1 – to show the benefit gained by women attending the NHS
cervical cancer-screening programme
________________________________________________________
Age No of Alive 10 Alive 10
at start women alive years later years later
of 10 at start of if they attend if they do
year period 10 year NHSCSP not attend
period NHSCSP
_______________________________________________________
25 10,000 9963 9962
35 10,000 9863 9859
45 10,000 9713 9708
55 10,000 9457 9450
______________________________________________________
Now factor in false negatives and the much larger risk of false positives and over-treatment.

Tanya great job with working around the barriers and I’ll keep my fingers crossed for the precious cargo’s safe arrival. I don’t have much to add after those great answers Elizabeth and Diane, but Tanya I did want to let you know how I dealt with those feelings of guilt and worry because I once felt the same way. Those feelings have gone now but for me it took a while. In addition to much research and the support and help from the women on Blogcritics and here, I felt the need to see my own cervix. So I researched what a normal cervix should like (there are many pictures available online), ordered a speculum from a Canadian midwifery supply site, and then took a look. Once I had checked in on my own cervix (a shy but healthy and vital body part), all my worries went away. For me it was an important part of the process of taking control of my own body.

Thanks. 🙂 Yes, here’s hoping! I have a pap scheduled for May 16th, and the “merchandise” is supposed to arrive on the 17th at the earliest. Because I’m too cheap to pay for express shipping. Dangit! I will probably cancel my pap. But on the other hand, what if the pills do not arrive?

Can’t doctors find some other way to make extra money, that doesn’t involve that torture implement, the speculum? I think that’s an interesting way of dealing with the feelings of guilt and worry. That sounds like something that might set my mind at ease, except…speculums and I are sworn enemies. And also, I’m not sure I’m that flexible, lol! Maybe a speculum wouldn’t be so bad if I did it myself. Is there such a thing as a tiny little camera on a tiny little tube or something? I really hate speculums…

I do like the idea of taking control over my own body. What you did is something that wouldn’t have ever occurred to me. It wouldn’t have even crossed my mind that I COULD do it.

Have you, or anyone else that’s responded to me in the last few days, ever ordered bcp online? If so, how did it go?

Torrance has posted recently on Blogcritics and stated she has mainly had success in all the years she has been ordering online: http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-200/#comments so that’s encouraging. Apparently there are more barriers being put up as you discovered – but you worked your way around them so now just the waiting . . .
I liked your reaction to my own well woman exam 🙂 I have to admit I felt like some kind of criminal to be looking somewhere I had never looked before, but I was so curious to see what the fuss was about the logistics of it became easier. And I felt so much better after seeing that everything looked normal.

It’s shocking women have to go to these lengths to get something as important as birth control. It’s locking up the Pill to force excess and elective screening.
If you stand your ground, some doctors will cave, I think most would in this country because they know they’d be in trouble if the woman complained to the Medical Board. When everyone agrees these exams and test are unnecessary for the Pill, more needs to be done to deal with the barriers women still face at the surgery level. We can talk endlessly, but if doctors aren’t listening and are still getting away with coercion, we’re hardly moving forward.
I don’t know how practical it would be for you, but in your shoes, I might seek out a doctor who does not practice excess and coercion. Or, perhaps a weekend in Mexico might be nice where OTC access is possible.
In the long run though, finding a decent doctor is so important.
I’ll send an email to the centre for reproductive health, they’ve been outspoken on this topic, they might be able to suggest someone. It’s time a list was put together so women could seek out an ethical doctor…they all keep saying a blood pressure test and your medical history is all that’s necessary for the Pill, but it’s time for action, women are still hitting barriers.
Hopefully, the Pills are just late….I had a similar experience with books and my emails were ignored, 3 weeks later they arrived…hope your Pills are still on the way. (fingers crossed)

Elizabeth, my emails aren’t just being ignored–I keep getting a failure notice. They’re not going through at all.

I would love to find a doctor that doesn’t practice coercion, but I have no idea how to do that. I have NEVER had one that didn’t ask me if I had my pap test before prescribing the pill. Some even wanted to check and make sure before they’d prescribe it to me.

I am in Canada, so a weekend trip to Mexico isn’t really realistic for me. If I lived closer to Mexico, I’d absolutely look into that.

The pills were supposed to arrive on May 17th. 😦 I don’t think they’re coming. I am so upset. Why do they have to make this so hard for us!? Men don’t have to go through this. 😦

Tanya, aside from the Delphi Screener and Tampap, both test for HPV, there is another product waiting for FDA approval. (which is apparently, not far off)
MSI are marketing it, it’s the “Solopap”, a combined pap and HPV self-test, they have offices in Nevada and Tasmania. I don’t like the idea of doing both tests as this generates the most over-investigation. The HPV test should stand alone.
Anyway, here is some more information. I know several Australian women who’ve used the Delphi Screener and then used the results to sort out their doctors. Many GPs just recommend screening, we probably know more about the risks and benefits of screening than they do…one colleague was told by her GP that she’d still need pap tests even though she’s HPV- and no longer sexually active…being informed, she was able to deal with his questions. The matter is now closed.http://medsysint.com.au/

Tanya, what company was it? Perhaps, I could try contacting them. I know some countries are becoming concerned about women ordering online. I wouldn’t put anything past the pap police. You might be able to fax or call them if their website has been blocked.
Have you ever refused the exams and got up to leave? You could take the articles that say over and over that these exams are unnecessary for the Pill. I really suspect many of your doctors must be starting to feel uncomfortable, they KNOW this is wrong. It was easy when most women thought all of this stuff was necessary, now more women are aware this is medical abuse, they must be facing more opposition. Dr Sherman says doctors hate dealing with complaints, we have to do more of that…complaints to the medical associations.
I’m sure I’ve asked you about HOPE and PP, is there one close to your home?

I just wonder if push came to shove, if you challenged them, whether they’d back down, but I know confrontation can be stressful.

I have ordered BCP, asthma meds and antibiotics from New Zealand and I was fine – the meds were sealed in factory packages with the manufacturer’s mark (Bayer NZ, I think). I checked them against the drugs.com pill identifier to be on the safe side and they matched. I think it’s a great idea to be careful because there are some online sites that aren’t sketchy. As a rule of thumb for myself, if the site claims to sell narcotics it probably isn’t legit.

I think I ordered generic Alesse, so I don’t think the pill identifier would help me much. I just tried it out, though–it’s pretty cool! It only recognized my current Alesse, though. Not my other meds.

I don’t think that site claims to sell narcotics…but I’m not sure. I’ve heard that sites that sell without a prescription aren’t legit, though, too. I guess I will see how it goes once they get here. I do hope they’re sealed in packages! They’d pretty much have to be, right?

InHouse Pharmacy, they are on Torrance’s list. 🙂 They are I think located in Vanuatu but their meds are from NZ and Australia. I’m always edgy about naming pharmacies because of the fact that it makes them easier to get found and shut down.

The sites located in other countries generally claim that they are selling whatever is available over the counter in *their* country, and unscheduled/non narcotic drugs are legal to import (in the USA, at least). If the meds aren’t sealed in factory packets/bottles I wouldn’t use them…

Tanya, you included a link in one of your posts (6 posts up) and it took me to Pharmacy Express, I assumed they were the people supplying your order.

I know women (online and in real life) who’ve calmly challenged their doctor, “I’m sorry, doctor, but I know these things are unnecessary for the Pill, and I’m not agreeing to them any more”…. (sometimes that’s enough) and prepare to leave if the doctor gives you a hard time, “clearly, I’ll have to find another doctor”…making it clear you’re not giving-in, you’re ending the consult and might sack him/her.
IMO, doctors expect women to give in and allow the exam, but it’s another thing to allow an informed woman to leave with nothing. I think it’s worth a try, if your Pills don’t arrive.
If you can identify the company, I’ll try and contact them for you.

I’ve sent emails to Ibis Reproductive Health and to PP in Canada. hopefully, they’ll have some ideas, surely there must be one decent doctor in the whole of Canada who follows the evidence and doesn’t practice coercion. I’ve also, written to Managing Contraception, someone needs to set up a register of doctors who follow the evidence, this problem needs more than words, it needs a practical solution. If women could refer to a list of doctors, others would review their conduct, especially when they’re losing patients.

Elizabeth I was delighted to see the steps you are taking. I saw on the news recently a group of women protesting outside a hospital. The hospital was refusing to allow birthing privileges to a midwife. The women were wearing signs with slogans along the lines of “my body, my baby, my decision” and “I decide who catches my baby”. The women were planning to give birth at home, but wanted their chosen midwife to be able to accompany them to the hospital should the need arise. They were making excellent points, stating how traumatic it would be if they were made to go to the hospital and be attended by a strange doctor, rather than their midwife. Women are starting to stand up for their right to a birth experience that will not leave them traumatized, dehumanized or otherwise harmed. Maybe we should start protesting outside clinics and hospitals.

Do you or does anyone know when Blogcritics is planning to put back the 10,000 comments?

Oh! Duh, sorry. I was going by the website name. But yes, it was Pharmacy Express. I am able to go on their website, too. I just couldn’t email them using the email I already had from contacting them before. I tried to contact them again through their website, so we’ll see how that works out.

Thank you; that’s very helpful. I actually didn’t know that we had PP in Canada. I wonder why? We don’t really need it, I wouldn’t think. But that’s good. I wonder if they do the HOPE program here? If it helps, I’m in Alberta, Canada. Calgary, specifically. I guess I could try to challenge the doctor…the problem is, they hold all the cards. Especially here–it’s near impossible to find a family doctor, especially a decent one. Maybe I can get my husband to go with me… I know from previous experience that even mildly challenging doctors on this is SOOO uncomfortable. But then, so are pap tests.

You know WAY more about this than me–who’s Managing Contraception? Never mind, I can look it up. I can’t believe there aren’t more women who are refusing it.

Tanya, good idea, taking your husband, but hopefully, it won’t come to that and your Pills arrive shortly. The Managing Contraception site was created by Dr Robert Hatcher and from this thread, you’ll see he shares our concerns. He went on to put together a short summary of the evidence in the area. I know some women have sent this summary to their doctor or used it in a consult.http://www.managingcontraception.com/qa/questions.php?questionid=635

Well, I have a small update. I managed to contact the company through their website, and they say they will re-ship my order, free of charge. So we shall see. In the meantime, though, I’m out of bcp and I REALLY didn’t want to go to the doctor, but I guess I’m going to have to.

I wonder how we could push for the pill to be available over the counter? That would basically solve all our problems with this issue. You’d think the manufacturers would be all for it, no? I mean, you can already buy Plan B over the counter, so there’s no reason not to sell birth control pills that way as well.

Tanya, I’m glad to hear you contacted the company and were able to get your order re-shipped free of charge. I hope you didn’t order the brand Yazz as this disturbing article was on the news: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2013/06/11/birth-control-pills-yaz-yasmin.html I appreciate you keeping us updated here, and if it turns out you have to go the doctor 😦 I hope it goes okay. You could say you are menstruating heavily? Or take a chaperone along . . . this is just so frustrating and wrong.

Tanya- I don’t know if you know this, but you could potentially FORCE them to give you your pills. It is actually ILLEGAL for them to refuse you these pills if you don’t get all kinds of exams (sometimes bringing this up alone will work, but threatening them with a lawyer or a complaint to the licensing board can be effective). Recording you saying “are you refusing to give me these pills?” might be a good idea (cellphone on record in your purse, perhaps?). It might be a good idea to have someone with you when you “push them around” (they probably won’t like it).

Cutting a Plan B in half might work (I’ve been told it’s basically just two birth control pills). Don’t know if this is what your looking for them for, but you might try alternative methods of contraception (I’ve even heard of a lemon/lime diaphram! It does actually sound like it would work, though). I’ve heard that it might be available OTC in the US pretty soon, but that’s a maybe. It would probably have a domino effect if it did happen, though. I completely agree, birth control should be available OTC.

I think it would be a big help if woman talked more solidly amonst themselves (meaning more an argument than a conversation or a question). Talking that way to a man can be pretty helpful, too (getting yelled at is less easy to brush off). I’ve noticed some people think that a situation ceases to exist in spite of its existANCE. As a guy if poisoning someone with a needle is still murder. I bet the answer is very reality-based. People say “it’s not like that” with doctors. Not like what? Reality? An iatrogenic attack is not innocent. Just musing a bit, but I’m remembering Jola’s post on some woman telling her “it won’t hurt or anything, be a modern woman?” What’s that supposed to mean? As long as someone doesn’t smack her in the face & tell her to get dinner on the table, everything’s fine? I guess a woman’s independant & mature to not be self-governed? I worry what my daughter would hear, too. Maybe one thing leads to another & she has a bunch of miscarriages or surgeries, too.

Ack! I used to be on Yasmin, and I was thinking of going back to it, but no, I think I ordered generic Alesse. This makes me mad, because I had asked about Yasmin after hearing bad things about it the last time I went for a pap test, and they told me it was all blown out of proportion and that it was perfectly safe. Hmph.

Yeah, I have never-ending heavy periods if I’m not on the pill. There are things I can try to help, though, like the progesterone cream I ordered (which came the other day), losing weight, dietary changes, etc.

Alex, I’ve seen you say before that it’s illegal for them to refuse to prescribe pills without an exam, but can you back that up with Canadian law? I couldn’t find any information on it. If it’s true, and I had proof, that WOULD be very helpful!

Unfortunately, I need the hormones in the pill, because first they put my hormones all out of whack, and now they seem to be the only thing that will fix the problem that they created in the first place. Hmmm… I go kinda nutty if I try to go off of them. And by “kinda nutty,” I mean completely insane. Plus there’s that whole menorrhagia issue.

I have considered using Plan B, but I wasn’t sure how to do it. I wonder if what you heard about it being two bcp is right? But on the other hand, I’ve also heard it’s very, very expensive–like $25 for one dose? That’s crazy.

I saw something on a Google search call Sex and the law (it was at the address http://www.sexualityandu.ca/sexual-health/sex-and-the-law). It gets into all kinds of things on age of consent & such, but there was a part on Consent to Medical Treatment. It said: “Just as consent for sexual activity must be freely given, so must consent for medical treatment. No one can threaten or force you to consent to treatment that you do not wish to accept, as long as you are fully capable of understanding the implications of your decision.” I saw numerous things on online law answers, but was not sure how they worked (some mentioned money, but not if there was a bill or if it was how much you’d be willing to pay, theoretically).

Pretty much sounds like a bullseye, but you may want to consult a lawyer (maybe several, considering that some men are unreliable & some women are cut from the same cloth). Perhaps abuse centers (they might get pissed at the comparison- but maybe sometimes a woman had one problem, then the doctors caused another)? A related subject may be of use to you: There was a case a little while back where (in Canada) they were practicing pelvic exams on unconscious women with no consent. Their argument: well, we thought no one would agree to be a lab dummy. I would think you might be able to find the overall legal situation off of that. Might even be helpful if you led with that if you were to try a lawyer consult (they might blow you off right out of the gate if you started with your original problem, but if they figure you might have some kind of case on that subject or one like it- you might get the overall alignment on that subject as a whole.). I know it’s supposed to be a lawyer telling you how things line up, asked & answered (truthfully)- but maybe they have a “that doesn’t count” kind of stance on the subject.

There is the aspect of putting you at risk (injuries, inaccuracies, infections, etc…) that might be a useful argument. It is not for the doctor to determine that the risk is acceptable for you. It’s not for them to impose any of this, but that might be an angle worth working. That IS an iatrogenic attack with additional ramifications- they’re not supposed to be purveying things that are unsafe or untrue, anyway. I remember hearing all kinds of things about liabilities (which is what a waiver is for), but how are they making themselves exempt from liability by doing things that constitute an attack that they are LIABLE for? They seem to figure they have proprietorship of the patient’s health. I’ve actually heard a lot of serial killers are attracted to the medical profession because of a perceived control of life & death. All of these are possible arguments/cases/precidents- maybe they get scared of the implications in court. I know this was kind of long, but maybe some of these things would be of use to you.

P.S.- I’ve been having some problems with getting a cursor in the comment box, lately. I click it & nothing happens (had to click it a massive amount of times to get it working). Anybody know what the deal is with that? Does that quick reply box on the e-mail message work for posting?

Also meant to add about getting dealing with Dr’s and getting the pill without unnecessary exams. Have a letter written up for the Dr to sign stating that they are contravening their medical ethics by refusing the pill due to the refusal of unnecessary unrelated exams to the safe us of hormonal birth control thus taking away your patient autonomy and right to informed consent for those intimate procedures. No Dr would sign such a letter and it would be a clear message that you know your rights.

Forwomans eyes only. my question is if doctors can see if a womans cervix looks healthy whats the use in a pap smear any ways. The people who pushed for all woman to have pap smears was not thinking. The concept seems stupid to me. woman can get cancer anywere yet we are made to think if you get pap smear your whole body will stay healthy. I remmeber when i was a teen reading magizens and girls were saying they didnt want to go to a gyno. And the reply was always “it is vital to yout health”. there is way more to a woman than just reprodutive organs what about heart cheecks the last time I heard you could die if you have a heart problem but no one pushed tests for that.

Kleigh that is a good question! The pap is very inaccurate. When you consider that 10 to 60% of all paps are incorrectly analyzed, many are false positives and 20 to 45% of paps are incorrectly analyzed as false negatives – that equates to paps being incorrectly analyzed much of the time. The following is copied and pasted from ehealth md.:

“Understanding Why Errors Occur

Experts agree that the conventional Pap test has a certain irreducible error rate. That means that even the most conscientious laboratories will sometimes

classify a normal smear as suspicious, or
fail to detect abnormal cells.

Why do errors occur?

Factors that affect the accuracy of any Pap test include whether the healthcare provider performing the screening

and whether the laboratory technologist analyzes the cell sample accurately.

False negatives. False negatives incorrectly indicate that the Pap smear is normal even though cancer or precancer is present. Inadequate sampling and improper slide preparation may be responsible for 90 to95 percent of all false negatives. They can also result from failure to recognize or correctly classify abnormal cells

Between 10 and 60 percent of all Pap smears are incorrectly analyzed. False negatives, which are far more common than false positives, may be reported 20 and 45 percent of the time. A gynecologist or family doctor who doubts the accuracy of any Pap smear report will repeat the screening and perform any appropriate diagnostic procedures.”http://ehealthmd.com/content/how-accurate-are-pap-smear-results#axzz2RzXV83EN

That site says my meds have shipped. That was quick! I looked the website up to see if they could be scammy or a hoax or sell fake pills, though, and they didn’t have a great rating. Although there wasn’t any real information (reviews, etc.). Ack! I’m so scared!

Tanya if it’s any consolation I’m waiting right along with you! Of course this wouldn’t even be necessary if doctors did what they were supposed to do in the first place and offered women informed consent. There is no other cancer screening or other test of any kind that is forced on people like the pap is forced on women.

Argh, I know! Look at what they’re driving us to. If they’re so worried about our health, how about not driving us to buy possibly questionable meds from overseas? Because that’s what I’ve been driven to, and the only reason I’m forced to do this is that I feel like I’m the one who should own/control my own body. Not doctors. Not the patriarchy. Not other women who go along like sheep and expect everyone else to do the same.

It really makes me furious that our wishes/rights are not respected in this regard. There has GOT to be something we could do. Something concrete, not just secretly ordering and stockpiling meds from overseas, like criminals. I would so love a list of doctors who prescribe the pill without requiring a pap test. I have no idea how that could be organized, though. A campaign demanding over-the-counter access? I don’t know.

Tanya, I know! It is frustrating beyond belief. I like the jib of your jibe, and one way that might work to keep track of who/who is not following ethical practices would be to leave a rating on “rate my MD”. If it’s too nasty the comments won’t get accepted (I know because I’ve tried), but if it’s something moderate it would most likely be accepted. So if a doctor refused to give bc pills based on a woman’s refusal of a vaginal exam, the rating could say something like “doctor did not offer informed consent for screening and withheld prescription” or something along those lines.

Hmmm, that’s not a bad idea. If we all start doing that, maybe we can start a movement towards change. Why women accept this is not only normal, but non-negotiable, is baffling to me! How can someone say that a woman has a right to her own body on one hand, and then turn around and say, “Well, except for that. You HAVE allow access for that,” when talking about invasive vaginal exams.

Well, I found out where the company is based, and where the pills are manufactured. I’m encouraged by this response that I got:

“Dear Tanya Lastname,

Our main office is located in London, UK. All the medications are manufactured
and shipped from India.
Please be informed that your order was successfully processed and shipped on
Wednesday, May 01, 2013.

Keep in mind that the delivery usually takes approximately 2-3 weeks. So the
delivery deadline is Wednesday, May 22, 2013.

Please, let us know of the outcome.

Please, do not hesitate to contact us in case you have any further question.”

So that shouldn’t be bad. Aren’t most pills–even brand names–manufactured in India, anyway?

NEW website I ordered 100 packs of birth control pills from: http://www.mexmeds4u.com EXCELLENT customer service; ask for Ricardo. He was SHOCKED when I told him what American women face in trying to obtain ONE pack of birth control pills, let alone the 100 packs I ordered and received without hassles. Based in Mexico. I also ordered antibiotics and they arrived beautifully packaged, too.

Torrance: Good to hear that other people notice that. I’ve noticed that, in America, people start “making a case” for whatever issue that comes up (especially with doctors, for some reason). I can’t tell if it’s because the actually DO support it or if they’re trying to soothe themselves because they are disturbed by it. Either way, it bolsters the affront.

It’s actually a bit scary, because they start fighting when there’s a problem- but FOR it, not AGAINST it. That means that if something were to happen to someone, they would side with whoever did it in court. That would create a more favorable environment for whatever it was to happen again & probably for other things to START happening.

I was SLAMMED online yesterday when I posted the very real, legitimate statistics of very real Cervical Cancer being an extremely rare Cancer. Men were posting I am a man-hater, women were scoffing at me, but I stuck to my guns and posted THIS link as well as several others. There is some idiotic 18 year-old in Florida who merely got a $6000.00 fine for impersonating a doctor and SURE ENOUGH, he was “peeking in” on gynecological appointments at a hospital. I actually LOOK for such abuses and I was SLAMMED left and right. This is ONE link; it wasn’t the link I was slammed on. Everybody thinks I am lying about these God awful abuses in gynecology, everybody persecutes me for stating women are forced into unnecessary exams for a prescription for the birth control pill/s and I was harangued to death yesterday. http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/17/health/florida-palm-beach-teen-doctor-arrest/index.html

Torrance: Holy shit! That’s pretty surprising for an 18-year-old to pull off (then again, it’s not unheard of for medical personnel to act like teenagers).

Why do you get called a man-hater for this? Women pull things like this on other women all the time & bringing up these procedures as potentially unsafe or of low-utility isn’t something that correlates to gender.

In truth, I’ve noticed that American women (not one & all, but VERY frequently) tend to be very servile medically. They won’t put up with a backhand or a dinner order, but ANYTHING else goes with them- including ANYTHING that’s aimed at their family. I don’t get it- they have such an attitude about the 50’s & not being allowed to own property in medieval times & all that, but don’t have a peep to say about someone probing them at their own discretion!

Makes me quite concerned for the future, since things are pretty eroded like that as far as I can tell. People EMOTIONALLY support things like independent decision making & calling things for what they are, but don’t frequently support these things PHYSICALLY or even VERBALLY. Someone’s not going to actually defend themselves if it goes beyond thinking well of it!

I also commented a bit of the way down and REALLY got slammed and that is when I started posting specific links because they were all laughing at me, antagonizing me for statistics because they chose to believe I was lying instead of just doing a simple look-up on their own. These gynecological abuses are RAMPANT yet I am slammed every which way when all I am doing is posting factual, scientific data. P.S. That “Doctor”, Malachi Love-Robinson, or whatever his name is, has now SEVERAL news links stating he was posing AS a gynecologist yet people are scoffing at me. That is absolutely disgusting and all he’ll do is legally change his name or simply USE another name and open up a new practice elsewhere. By the way, Alex, I enjoy your very excellent posts and your support toward we women. Thank you for offering so many women strategies because of what they face in doctors’ offices. In December of 2017, that will mark 30 YEARS since I’ve set foot in a doctor’s office. I was hounded to DEATH to submit to exams I KNEW I didn’t need because my mother must have been afflicted with Munchausen-By-Proxy-Disorder and she physically beat me into submission every day as it was and beat me until I got into her car to submit to at least once-per-week medical appointments at a quack’s office in Bethel, Connecticut where he grilled me mercilessly, every week from ages eleven-through-eighteen to allow him to probe my genitals and I refused and I was terrified my mother would override my decision and allow him to do so; she was THAT forceful. Over a seven-and-a-half year course of forced appointments due to my mother’s complete insanity, I went to that quack over 400 times so picture the badgering I endured and on top of his quack visits, she dragged me other places including to hospitals. I have had my FILL of doctors trying to force themselves onto me and that is truly what it felt like. Even when I DATED a doctor in 1988, HE wouldn’t prescribe The Pill for me unless I submitted to that ghastly exam. I asked him precisely WHAT he was looking for before he would prescribe The Pill for his patients because it was WRONG and he shrugged and said: “Well, that’s just the way it’s done!” I broke up with him because he refused to see that poking around women’s genitals had no bearing whatsoever on safe usage of The Pill. I advocate CONSTANTLY to women on my commuting trains that they DO NOT have to submit to those exams and they are ALWAYS skeptical toward me. I SHOW THEM the links to legitimate pharmacies wherein I have stockpiled countless packages of birth control pills and they do not believe me. Women have been brainwashed since infancy by their mothers they MUST submit for those unnecessary exams and I don’t know when or what it will take to shift their belief onto what the truth actually is. THANK YOU for being on our side. You’re welcome to “Friend” me on Facebook if you’d like.

I really think goverments need to reconize this is happening instead of never speaking about it on the news. I dont see how this cant be rape. were talking about woman being forced to have tools and hands inside there vagina or no unrelated meads. this is insane i whould expect this in china but not Canada or the US. It is also sexist too because the burdan of birth control is all on woman. I have never heard of a doctor refuses a man unrelated care or meads unless they have a prostate exam. but I think its because alot of woman never question this. I wonder if a boycott whould change this. its oppresive. and sad that most woman dont even reconize it.

It’s definitely mentioned when they do virginity tests on people in the Middle East (men included, actually). Don’t remember if they ever outright called it rape with women, but it was called that with men. It’s an unconventional comportment of it, but it IS an instance of imposed penetration. If someone got their head cut off with a scalpel, it would still be someone getting killed.

Speaking of China, a while back they were trying to force a bunch of women to get birth control rings implanted & it didn’t fly over there. I think THIRTEEN lawyers got together against it! Might be something worth looking up, although I don’t remember how I came across it the first time.

Tanya,
You were wondering about HPV testing for men. I suspect testing must be possible, but it’s kept very quiet. You might find this post from Blogcritics of interest, a urine HPV test for men. Interesting they have no problem inventing non-invasive tests for men, but it’s not important for women.

Posted by Over It All:
“Silly Me! Why should I care about men getting a Urine HPV Test when I can lay naked, spread eagle in front of a stranger (most likely male) while he fingers me and places objects in me. I’ll also forget that you can use the SAME urine sample to test for HPV, Chlamydia and Gonorrhea

Thought this was interesting as well:
“Question:
Is it true that men can’t be tested for HPV? That there’s no HPV test for men?

Answer:
Yes and no. Although HPV testing for men is used in some research studies, HPV testing is not commonly done by doctors or in clinics. The test is unpleasant for many men – it involves using something akin to a metal nail file to scrape skin cells from a man’s penis – and is not quite as sensitive or specific of a test as the HPV test is for women, as I understand it. As a result, HPV testing for men is not widely offered. Men cannot really know, then, if they carry and HPV strain or not. However, if you think you have genital warts – they can be as small as little pimples or larger and resembling cauliflower – please see your healthcare provider. They can do a biopsy or, if you’d prefer, try one of the standard treatments (such as a topical cream) to see if that works. Also, warts often go away on their own even without treatment. And now, men can get the Gardasil vaccine to help prevent cases of warts.

Unfortunately, as I’ve stated in other posts, I believe women are their own worst enemies. Go on any article on cervical screening in the UK and when one woman asks why a less invasive procedure hasn’t been invented, it’s other women, belittling her and shouting her down and telling her to “get over it”. When anyone suggests that the test be modernised, it’s other women who decry this saying the answer is to force more women to test (using the current method) using opportunistic tactics. Men tend to avoid the docs like the plague and some women do too, but the proof is in the pudding as they say – one reason a better test has not been promulgated is due to many women themselves who peddle the “all women must have smears” tripe. Just like when they raised the screening age, the powers that be were wary of the backlash from misinformed militant women who are now campaigning (very loudly) to have that age lowered again without even a thought as to why it was raised in the first place.
These women are part of the problem. I find it beyond astonishing that we are in the 21st century and are having this problem, where many women themselves are the ones opposing and resisting change (even though it’d be in their interests to do so). What on earth is the matter with these women? The ignorance (to the point of even refusing to acknowledge any problem at all with smears) is beyond astounding to me.

On a sidenote, interesting about the HPV testing for men. Over here, they do awareness campaigns to encourage the importance of STD testing for both sexes (quite rightly!) but I wasn’t aware that HPV testing was available for males! If they request STD testing (due to initiating a new relationship for instance), would they be informed that this was available as part of the overall check-up? If not, this would be criminal. Why aren’t both sexes educated on HPV at schools (the link to HPV and testicular cancer has recently been researched)? My guess is that they want to keep girls ignorant (just rely on cervical screening to “avoid” cervical cancer) and hence, they don’t make simple (but vital) life decisions like insist on barrier contraception until they enter monogamous relationships because that would empower them. This is morally reprehensible in the extreme.

I think you may be right, AQ, I’ve read over the years that there is no real need for a HPV test for men, there’s no cure, it usually resolves itself, men don’t get cc (but they can get HPV-linked anal and mouth cancers) and of course, women “should” get regular pap tests.
It always comes back to pap testing…

In fact, if there was an HPV test for men, women might ask their new partner to test for HPV, that way we’d have a better chance of avoiding HPV, rather than simply relying on pap testing. (which doesn’t help before age 30 and benefits VERY few women older than 30, while harming huge numbers)
In fact, when a young woman gets cc it’s usually an adenocarcinoma, this type of cc is usually missed by pap testing. Yet we still urge young women to screen to protect themselves from cc.
They certainly don’t want us to know that HPV- women can’t be helped by pap testing either. (that fact has been known for some time now)
Same reason they don’t tell women in lifelong mutually monogamous relationships that they’re most unlikely to benefit from pap testing. No, they’d prefer to test you and risk your health with excess biopsies and over-treatment, they prefer to assume all men are unfaithful & cut you out of the assessment, even though we’re talking about your partner and your body and health.

No, this sort of information empowers women, that would never do…
That’s why I’ve always said they protect the testing and the program, not women.

AQ, I know the sort of women you’re talking about, I knew quite a few at University, very outspoken about pap tests, almost wore their screening status like a badge of honour.
It was sort-of sophisticated not to be bothered by pap testing or using a male doctor.

I think some of the aggression concealed negative feelings/trauma, attack is the best form of defence = don’t get too close to me! I know some women who attacked those who questioned the need for smears had been to hell and back, they didn’t want to hear that it might all have been for nothing. I know some women were mortified by the exposure with both the testing and treatments with one or more male doctors – they HAD to believe it was fine, to suppress/deny the negative feelings about these tests and treatments.
It was their way of coping with the trauma, the indignity/violation, the embarrassment, the pain, the loss of control etc.

The reactions ARE irrational, compare it to bowel screening – very low key compared to cervical screening, yet bowel cancer is more common than cc, a greater threat.

Ever think it’s something of a narcissism thing- like they’re trying to get “points” or simply exalt themselves above these other women? I notice narcissists are said to frequently try to manage other people’s property, maybe it also applies to their anatomies?

It’s not rare for someone to simply be too arrogant to catch their own mistakes, but for someone else to not make them too seems like something they also have issues with (confusingly, since it’s incongruent with their presented narrative- the maintain that they’re basically “too good to fail” & that the situation of them could never include something negative).

Another one could actually be TOO MUCH self-recrimination. Women aren’t bad for being able to “audit” themselves, but I think other people kind of key into that rhythm & use it against them- like using their own momentum to throw them.

Women should be allowed to decide for themselves if they want or need an invasive exam. They are uncomfortable and most of the time unnecessary. Doctors should not have the right to hold prectiptions hostage if a woman does not want an exam. I am not on the pills because of this, and I’ve been researching safe and affordable websites to order birth control.

You are 100% correct. Someone doesn’t have a right to do something that isn’t right, anyway- but it is actually illegal. You might be able to bring that point up and have that be the end of it right there. Asking “Are you refusing to prescribe me this?” or threatening them with filing complaints (to medical licensing boards, AMA, etc…) might work, as well. Probably a good idea to do this with someone with you. Obviously someone that supports you, but a man does tend to be a bit more intimidating than a woman, so maybe a boyfriend/husband/close friend/etc… . Saying: “Hey, could you help me out? I don’t want to get anything forced on me & if they’re willing to try one angle, maybe they’d be willing to try another.” Making things apparent that way tends to be helpful talking to a guy, I’ve noticed. I made a bunch of points further up that might be helpful if you’re having a conversation/arguement about this (May 7 was the date).

You might even try recording the conversation (cellphone on record in your pocketbook, perhaps). They make pens & watches & such that do things like that, too. On a related note, I read an article where a guy had on a camera pen like a necklace (guess what profession he was?). Just looked like he was carrying a fancy, metallic pen in a hard-to-lose kind of way. Something to be aware of, as a general theme. Same things apply to Planned Parenthood with that HOPE Program (where they’re supposed to be giving out these pills without all this nonsense). On that, you might try cycling which ones you go to. Keep in mind, sometimes you run into worse than normal there, because there’s no money changing hands (and quality control is less of a concern, potentially). The doctors/nurses/whoever might be the ones with a million complaints about them.

Here’s an interesting article written by a doctor about getting the pill OTC. Interestingly, the article says things like “Moreover, the push toward delinking preventive screening from provision of prescription birth control has been growing. Both services are important, but there is no medical reason to make one contingent on the other. Rather than holding contraception hostage, physicians should emphasize the importance of evidence-based screening recommendations.”
“holding contraception hostage”? , it sounds like someone has been reading this blog or unnecessary pap smears….http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleID=1670280

The medical community has always known that holding medications “hostage” was EXACTLY what they were doing. You fail to understand that it is okay as long as the patient is a dumb female (sarcasm).

There was a time in American history when a woman was property. I don’t think things have changed all that much in the eyes of the medical profession.

Thank God for menopause. I no longer have to deal with birth control, but my heart goes out to the women who still have that burden. And like Elizabeth I now welcome the pap debate. The doctor who challlenges me at the age of 56 is in for one hell of a ride.

Justification isn’t necessarily a prerequisite for action. Sometimes people forget: malice can be a reason for doing something. That may not be something that everyone can identify with, but you’re not necessarily dealing with someone that’s like you, are you? This can apply large-scale, too. You can have a major move by a corporation or a government that’s purely done for spite, for instance. A serial killer with an army would now do a magnified amount of damage, instead of just being one nut going on a killing spree. With any situation, this would be the pattern of broadcasting harm. Jola had mentioned in one of her posts about this Romanian dictator (Nicolae Ceausescu) that attacked women along this line (getting in trouble for not getting pregnant or having miscarriages, imposed exams every month or so, abortion was outlawed so there were a lot of problems from DIY or back-alley abortions, the list goes on).

There’s also thinking by adjucation (“reality is what I SAY it is”). Psycologically, a trait you see sometimes is someone thinking they’ve made something the way they’ve treated it (treating someone low quality actually imbuing them with that low level of quality, as an example with people). They think they’ve transformed something & it can get like an emotional version of a drug habit. They the feel that they form reality itself & it’s like flexing there muscles (or sticking a needle in their arm).

I wouldn’t make the point of discriminatory treatment, though. At least not in that way. You’re right about how that goes (as a general thing, they don’t roll that way with men as much as they do with women), but it might not get the intended effect. I don’t mean to sound like I’m yelling at you, but it comes off like you wouldn’t mind that kind of treatment if it were applied equally (you’d still be in the same boat, though). It can also sound like you want that for men and that would likely but a man in an unsupportive mood. You might make the point of: “What if someone were getting agressively gay with you?”- phrasing it that way would probably get through a bit more clearly than more subtle approaches. I don’t mean to lecture, but one thing kind of led to another. I hope it didn’t come off like a was berating you, I just got on a bit of a roll.

Kleigh I asked Anne Mackie if a man declining bowel cancer screening would be denied inhaler or viagra until he did and she said people aren’t denied medicine if they don’t screen. We know the opposite is true?!

No wonder, that lady who posted on the NHS website that she was being forced to sign a document promising to keep her smears up-to-date before she could register was removed from the NHS website. Women clearly can’t even access healthcare without agreeing to have a smear test!

I do not think any one man or woman should be forced into any exam. Its just that I have never heard of a man being refused unrelated health care untill they submit to a cancer screening. You took what I said the wrong way.

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean that you actually felt that way, just that it could SOUND that way & be bad for getting assistance (particularly male assistance). I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that type of situation with men, either. It’s consent by coercion, plain and simple. Even if it were related, it’s not for someone else to impose (not to repeat history, I didn’t figure that’s what you meant- I just wanted to make the point, overall). I’ve noticed that potential usefulness (factual or fictional) tends to be an argument used with a few things- like a comparison of strategies & one is of a higher “score.” It doesn’t even have to be along these lines, anything turns into a “make your case” kind of an argument (and it seems agreement is defeat for some people- maybe it’s like the idea of getting beaten by a girl?). If agreement is defeat, what would respect be for that type of person? Better stop before I go on a tangent, but there it is.

Side note: I was looking up for Tanya on if it’s illegal to refuse to give birth control if the woman refuses to get internal exams in Canada (it seems that it is & I left an address: sexualityandu.ca- it’s under the sex & the law section of sexual health). It seems to be the case for New Zealand, too (I’d read something about what is banned under the definition of torture in different countries & imposed medical things were on it). I’ve heard several times that it’s illegal in America (and one was from a lawyer). It seems this is one of those things that aren’t legal, just engaged in. Not that it makes any difference if it were legally supported, anyway. I don’t know who’s from where on this site, but hopefully that helps.

Yes, this looks great Alex, it is very explicit: “Just as consent for sexual activity must be freely given, so must consent for medical treatment. No one can threaten or force you to consent to treatment that you do not wish to accept, as long as you are fully capable of understanding the implications of your decision.” http://www.sexualityandu.ca/en/sexual-health/sex-and-the-law

You’re very welcome! What you’re talking about is entirely possible, but maybe you can throw the term “negligent care” around. If they’re keeping you from having these birth control pills (“generating an obstacle”) that could most likely be considered negligence, at the very least (considering that they are depriving you of medicine, it’d be fairly easy to make the point that it’s deliberate iatrogenic harm). “Deprivation of care in the form of withholding of medication”- sounds like malpractice to me. Probably to them, too (lawyer words can be scary for doctors- they might back off at the sound of them, just because they figure a lawyer will do the same thing or more). “Immobilizing your capacity to care for your health,” would probably be a legal “head shot.” Maybe use an actual lawyer.

It might be worth it to wait a bit on your pills & just try to keep it together (whatever happened to getting them in the mail, by-the-way?), for the more obvious reasons, but also you might be able to break them & never have this problem again. Sexual distress as a situation is another “bullet.” So are efforts expended, time wasted/lost (which ever sounds worst), suffering from the condition in the first place (which COULD have been helped, but…). You might also try a long-distance Planned Parenthood trek (I’ll leave out the smart-assed comments on braving the Canadian wilderness against all odds, with great effort).

I’d be very cautious with the idea of going to America like people go to Mexico & cashing in on the illegality of refusing birth control for abstaining from testing (you might have similar probelms at the border, as far as law-enforcement goes and that’s just the Americans. They’ve gotten bizzare & dangerous with traveling, lately. I have no idea what Canada is like on that, but I’ve heard of some pretty screwy laws on pepper spray & caffine pills.). The doctors have similar tendancies here & the “we’re better than everywhere else” attitude just adds to it.

As a side-note: I’ve heard that low fat diets are actually BAD for hormones, because they are made of cholesterol- no raw materials. Also, a high soy diet seems to be a problem because of mimicking estrogen, blocking iodine (I think), and a bunch of other stuff that I’m really not that knowledgeable about. Paleoforwomen.com might be a good site for that (lots of subjects & the articles can be pretty extensive/long). Don’t forget: you can try Googling the stuff you want the same way that you’d say it (or just combine some terms that are topic-related). Sometimes things are on the later pages not the first two or three. I’m happy to help, but that would add a more situational ability to find stuff as you think of it. I know this was another long post, but just to add one more thing: if they’re saying you don’t get these pills without these tests & you record it- there’s no real way they can weasel out of it. The DESCRIPTION of the conversation can be portrayed all different ways, but audio might do the trick (you said one thing & that was their response- Suspicious, much?).

I can’t figure out how to find a Planned Parenthood in Canada. I guess we do have them, and I think there is at least one in my city (but maybe it’s just the office or something?), but they seem to be well-hidden. Maybe I will try calling them this week.

I did order pills online, but they never arrived. The company says they will re-send them, so I guess we shall see. Not a good first experience, though.

I had never heard of men being coerced either however interestingly, I’ve spoken to some men and women online about this. I spoke to a Canadian women who said that everyone – male and female – were encouraged to have yearly physicals. For the women, she said paps and breast exams were included and men over 35 were encouraged to have prostate exams. Another Canadian gentleman from Edmondton also told me he’d been having DREs since he was 35. I recall watching an episode of Family Guy where Peter was told to have a DRE and he was trying to get out of it. So I wonder, is this obsession with mandating females to have these exams for “BC access” morphing into a wider trend to screen everyone for everything going (apart from genuinely threatening diseases of course)? Anything to make money or misguided liberalism? God help us all.

Tanya, I found this on a closed thread on another site,
“No, if you don’t need one if don’t have any conditions that would be a concern. Search their website for something called HOPE, which stands for something like “Hormonal options without pelvic exam” It states what I just said. The Canadian equivalent of planned parenthood required me to sign a form stating that I didn’t want the exam and that was that.
Plus, bc pills are known to be very safe for most women so that is why exams are becoming a thing of the past when it comes to starting them.”
Sounds like PP in Canada offer a HOPE program, I googled Planned Parenthood in Canada and their website appeared listing their branches. I sent them an email a week ago and received no reply, I’ll try their head office.

I don’t know what the Canadian equivalent of PP is. Googling them is just an exercise in frustration for me…I found a website, but it looks like it’s 15 years old, and it has weird links like some spammer found a way to sort-of take it over.

Grrr, I wish doctors here were up on the latest news and guidelines for this. The doctor I see for everything but “well-woman” exams still thinks a yearly pap test is appropriate.

I don’t mean to punctuate every reply with a reply of my own, but I’ve been thinking: Saying someone “needs” something in the way whoever posted that (and maybe they didn’t mean it that way) can be a problem. Just like saying “will be having” & “going to be doing” being a tactic to steer a situation. In this case I was thinking about how need comes from want, otherwise there’s no gravitational influence. It doesn’t matter what something does or if someone has a related issue, it’s still an attack as an imposed situation. Also, someone forming an association with a situation and a response to it doesn’t necessarily apply, because an action has to be ENGAGED in order to occur, it doesn’t just mystically appear (that’s an additional problem with coerced participation- the “I’m a part of my own attack” aspect).

Tanya- Not to overstep my bounds or anything, but is this the same doctor that’s trying to back you into a corner with birth control? I’d seriously worry how good he is (and would be in the future) with everthing else if that’s how he acts. Through incompetance or antagonism (and I guess you could make the point that antagonism is a form of incompetance) a doctor might cause you problems on other levels. I don’t really think they believe in the usefulness of these exams, and their designating something as viable doesn’t generate that situation. There are also the emotional investments that medical personnel may have (too arrogant to catch their own mistakes, feeling like they’re being pushed around by the patient comporting their own medical situations, that their “expert” status is based on inaccurate information & thus their expertise lacks quality-like having a black belt in a martial art that doesn’t work,mommy issues, etc…). We could get into a little bit of the history & properties on allopaths & empirics, but this is pretty long to begin with.

It’s amazing how many still believe the yearly pap test is “safer”. I’d avoid any doctor pushing annual pap tests….I find it concerning our doctors are still selling 2 yearly pap tests. It’s disgusting when most women can’t benefit from pap testing, and when we can easily identify those who have a small chance of benefiting from a pap test. It’s exposing most women to unnecessary invasive testing and all the risk that accompanies it. It’s an unnecessary burden on the female population.
Yet they have no trouble justifying their conduct, they simply don’t care about the masses (or the evidence)…the crazy thing is they also, don’t care about cervical cancer or they’d be adopting the most effective screening program, HPV primary testing and HPV self-testing. It says to me: control of women and profits.

Hopefully, I’ll get a response from PP’s Head Office in Canada, I’ll let you know.
I was worried that maybe the customs people had seized your BC pills, especially when the other delivery arrived on time. I read that Canada and the States stop some deliveries from overseas pharmacies, but they must notify you…so it sounds like your initial delivery just got lost.
Anyway, hope they arrive soon…

He’s a good doctor for other stuff. Like I’ve said before, my options are limited here. We have a doctor shortage. I was also worried that Customs had seized them, and if so, would I get in trouble? But yeah, nobody notified me of anything. How would they notify you, though? Phone? Mail?

PP doesn’t “require” pelvics to START bcp’s. Wait a year and go back to have a refill and they WILL require an exam. Trust me, I’ve dealt with them in the past when my 25 OBGYNs refused to refill when I declined the exams.

PP might TRY that, but I’d figure they’d run into the same problems as regular doctors Their actions still fall under the same parameters as mentioned above (don’t know if you saw any of that in the above posts). Since reality doesn’t take a coffee break for anyone & someone can’t maintain the point that it does without sounding like a crazy person, I don’t see why you couldn’t overrule PP’s little “requistites.” They do the same things, so the same things are occurring.

I was shcoked when you said 25 doctors refused to refill your prescription when you declined the exams! Where were you? I wonder if, perhaps, they talked to each other & did a phone tree type of thing? Either way, I did mention a bunch of things futher up & in other threads that might help you “secure compliance” from docotors (others have posted things along these lines, but I don’t remember if it’s on this thread or one of the other ones). That phone tree thing might very well be something that occurs. Maybe there’s a way to secure your medical records (as in taking your charts away from them)? I never liked those commercials where someone would say “tell your doctor if you or anyone in your house needs or has recently had a vaccine”- if you were looking for one, you’d have brought it up & someone else’s situation isn’t pertinent. It’s probably not something they’re supposed to try to know about (patient confidentiality, right?). Maybe it’s a way to network with other doctors to lean on the patients they work for.

Well, I managed to get 3 months more by asking…my psychiatrist. I can’t believe he did it! I wasn’t even going to ask him, but I was there for a refill on my antidepressants anyway, so I thought, “What do I have to lose?” and he gave me one without any hassle at all. Pity it’s only for 3 months, but it does buy me a bit more time.

Wait, you mean he got you birth control pills? Very cool! Didn’t think they could do that, but that’s awesome. I’ve heard of people getting a psychiatrist’s backing in order to get them from other doctors, but I never heard of that. Good idea! How long do birth control pills last, anyway? I was wondering how long a supply someone could built up.

A psychiatrist is an MD so technically he or she can write a prescription for any medication, including birth control pills. Also, the Pill is used to help some women with hormonal issues which may or may not include psychological disturbances, so it could easily be argued that it is justified. 🙂

Yeah, as he was doing up my prescription for my antidepressant, I asked him if he was able to do any other prescriptions as well. He said something like, “Not usually, why?” So I told him I needed birth control and didn’t want to go to the doctor right now. So he added the birth control. Which was super cool!

Torrance can answer that question, she’s got years worth of pills.
Any doctor can write you a script here, as long as they’re comfortable doing so. I’ve asked my GP for scripts for steroid creams I use for dermatitis now and then. It’s not cream she usually prescribes…I usually get it from my dermatologist, but the wait to get in and see her is getting ridiculous. My GP searches for the drugs online, reads through the information, asks me a couple of questions and gives me the script. If she was unsure about something, she might have called my specialist or made her enquiries and then asked reception to let me know the script was waiting for collection. I think this might be fairly common now, with wait times to see specialists. My brother needs to see a neurologist, he can see someone in late August or one of the best in early November.
In some cases they might only give you a short supply of the drug, until you can see your specialist.

Anyway, great news, Tanya….yes, it gives you plotting time to work out were your next haul is coming from, honestly, you’d think we were talking about something illegal, not something as essential and safe as birth control.

Right!? It would be funny if it wasn’t so frustrating. I also wrote to the Alberta College of Physicians and surgeons, asking them if doctors HAD to make sure a woman got a pap test before they could prescribe the pill, and got this response:

“I’m responding to your inquiry about the prescribing of birth control pills. The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta has no standard of practice that prevents a physician from prescribing birth control pills for women who haven’t had a Pap smear. We expect our members to advise their female patients about the appropriate role of Pap smear screening but its not a requirement before the pill can be prescribed.

Replying to myself here, and sorry for posting so many times in a row, but I then asked the above fellow what I could do if the doctor refused to prescribe the pill without a pap test, and he responded (very quickly!!!) with this:

“You can advise him or her that you appreciate the advice regarding the test but it’s your choice and you prefer not to have it done at this time. You can also say that you’ve checked and there’s no reason not to receive the prescription because of not having the Pap smear. If s/he still refuses, you could go to someone else or, if you wanted to, you could register a complaint with our professional conduct department. “

Good for you Tanya. I was thrilled to see the reply you got from the College, and when I saw your psychiatrist wrote you a prescription for the pill I was happy for you! It highlights how ludicrous it is for a dr to demand a vaginal exam when you compare it with, say, a psychiatrist demanding a vaginal exam before granting you the same prescription. Printing out a copy of the email from the College and showing it to the dr next time you go would probably guarantee a good outcome.

I’m so glad that the Alberta College of Physicians and Surgeons recognizes that pap smears are not a requirement for the safe use of the pill and that it’s unethical for a Dr to demand them for a prescription. I would love to see the look on a Dr’s face being shown that email. We know it’s unethical but for some reason many Dr’s don’t know that. The threat of being reported would likely set them straight. In my opinion a Dr requiring those exams is a mix of power and of misinformation. In med school they were likely taught that the well woman exam is a requirement for the safe use of the pill and it’s been taught that way for many generations of Dr’s and no one has challenged that information or it’s been ignored due to misogynist attitudes. Much less stopped to question the ethics of it. Plus in Ontario (not sure about Alberta) the $2000 bonus for achieving an 80% target would send ethics out the window.

I went looking for information if Alberta has payment incentives for Dr’s for reaching screening targets and came across information promoting cancer screening. It clearly stated that according to the World Health Organization cancer was the number one cause of death world wide. I decided to see if this was true and went and looked myself. That is a blatant lie. According to the WHO the number one cause of death world wide is Ischaemic heart disease. I quote: “Q: What is the number one cause of death throughout the world? Cardiovascular diseases kill more people each year than any others. In 2008, 7.3 million people died of ischaemic heart disease, 6.2 million from stroke or another form of cerebrovascular disease. Cancer is not even in the top 10.

I just can’t believe that any organization looking for credibility would blatantly lie. That’s academic fraud. I would have been kicked out of school for doing that. Do they think that no one is ever going to check if their statements are true.
I can’t find any information if Alberta has payment incentives. If they do it’s not readily available information like the Ontario information was. Alberta does have a cervical cancer screening program with several falsehoods on the one site I came across. http://www.screeningforlife.ca/cervical I’m finding that in Ontario and Alberta cancer screening is really focusing on breast, cervical, and colon. With incentive payments in Ontario being focused on those three. Interesting how prostrate and testicular aren’t on there or any other more common cancers such as lung. Why is the medical profession so focused on people’s bottoms and with women’s sex organs.

Oh, also, when I was filling the prescription, I mentioned to the pharmacist that I don’t know why they don’t just sell it over the counter already, because it’s a pain to get it from the doctor all the time. She said, “But then teenagers could get it.” So I said well, that’s better than them getting pregnant, no? And she said, “Yeah, but 12-year-olds? Thirteen-year-olds?” It’s still better than them getting pregnant! In fact, the younger the age she mentioned, the more I personally think it would be better for them to have the pill rather than have a baby. If they really didn’t want children to be able to buy it, for some reason that is completely unfathomable to me, why couldn’t they require ID? Honestly, it’s so ridiculous.

What kind of screwing around do they think kids that young are doing? A 12-year-old, really? I don’t think it’s really about that, they’re just saying what sounds most innocent- because your point about ID is exactly what they do with everything else (booze, cigarettes, etc…). And what are they saying? That young people should get corralled into traumatic & dangerous circumstances?

“Bodily Autonomy” is a great way to phrase things! Had been looking for a more conversational way to put thinkgs like that- sometimes you want to make a point, but the elaboration can be a bit detailed for dinner table conversation! Now, I can make the point when someone asks why I’m trying to move to Europe or why I don’t like doctors & it’ll convey what I mean without it being too much if there’s kids around (not to say they shouldn’t hear it eventually, and they definitely shouldn’t hear false claims like they do in school- but I don’t want to do someone’s parenting for them). I heard a high school in Norway was thinking about handing out birth control the way they hand out condoms!

Now that I think about it, they never once said: “Your body, your rules” or “comport the situation to your preferances” in health class. I brought up a bunch of things in parenting “class” (I was doing tutoring in the library at the time, so it was just me and the teacher). I remember she had said something to the effect of “most women just accept that there’ll be some discomfort” in referance to me saying that all that internal stuff would be a problem. She was of an older generation, but I never got that. If some said: “A punch in the head is a part of marriage,” there’d be one hell of an argument about that being an interjected action that wouldn’t occur if someone didn’t take a swing at her. No one looks at it as a bad thing if the woman ducks that punch, either.

Yeah, I pretty much completely agree with you. I’ve often heard, “It’s just part of being a grown-up woman,” which of course is insulting to those of us who think it shouldn’t be. Are they saying we’re being childish? Yes, they are. I’ve been told by two different doctors to grow up over this issue.

About the birth control, I’m sure there are, unfortunately, 12-year-olds who are having sex, but the thing is, if they’re going to do it, they’re going to do it. Pretending that withholding the pill from them will prevent them from having sex is stupid. It’s safer for them to have birth control than to have a baby at that age. Besides, as far as I’m aware, there’s no age limit on condoms, is there? So why should the pill be any different? Because it’s for females, that’s all.

Yeah, what’s so grown-up about having something happen to you that you don’t want to have happen to you? What’s so adult about not having any self-determination? I guess it’s mature to ignore the risks & inaccuracies, as well? And to pattern your decisions mindlessly after what others do (I seem remember hearing “if someone else jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?”)? Setting someone up with false information is another point. Someone that acts this way is to be trusted (surely sabotage isn’t grounds for distrust or contempt)? I wonder how this all got started. How did this get sold to women in the first place? Maybe a down-trodden generation & yet another order? Same thing with pregnancy/childbirth.

Yes, I’d much rather see a teenager take their health into their own hands, and go on the Pill on their own, rather than get pregnant. Not every kid can talk to their parents about going on birth control, and then they get sent through the “but you need a Pap…” wringer. Putting them over the counter would solve that issue.

Plus when they talk about the Pill being dangerous: well, it’s been said before, but I could name about 25 over the counter medications that could kill you if they were used incorrectly, including a very common painkiller that has a low fatal dose. The Pill is absolutely nothing compared to those meds, which are all over the counter.

I notice that alot of woman esp older think that pap smears cheek for more than just cancer. I heard some woman say it cheecks for infection. When this screening came out woman were not told anything just that they had to have them. I also think pap smears came out at a time when pple were taught not to question doctors. I still see this alot in my grandparents and there friends. They put all there trust into there doctors and go by doctor knows best.

I’ve noticed that, too. Me & my grandmother argue all the time about that. I think it has a lot to do with them not wanting to be arrogant. They also think “well, there’s some good ones”- figuring that it’d be stupid to think otherwise. Some of the older men are the same way about the military & cops. They seem to distrust doctors a bit more, though. Maybe they felt some things that they bottled up or thought it unmanly to care that much. Never understood that, since pack loyalty & counteracting an attack (as well as not being easy to trick) are all manly traits.

I’ve always heard that as well, but been told that it’s the pelvic exam, not the pap screening itself that detects STDs and infections and other forms of cancer etc. Up until now, I was fairly sure that that was true because everyone has always said that.

I’ve heard that too. What they don’t tell you is that just about every STD and infection can be detected on a blood test, so there’s always an alternative to pelvics, and that there’s never been a single case of ovarian cancer that has been diagnosed through a pelvic exam. The bimanual exam has been confirmed by research as being completely useless, and yet doctors still want to do it.

This is slightly off topic from this post, but I just needed somewhere to comment and ask questions. I feel very confused right now. Also misled and slightly scared. I am barely 20 and I was considering moving out of the country for more job opportunities but I heard that a pap test, pelvic exam, and breast exam were all required to travel to another country. Can someone please confirm or deny this for me? Also, do pelvic/breast exams have any benefit and if they do, what are the risks? In the case of possible ovarian cysts, as I know women my age and younger can and do get them (it’s something I’m slightly worried about as most of the women I know my age have at least had one or two) is it an option to request an external only ultrasound (as I think this is a sufficient way to detect cysts/growths, please correct me if I’m wrong) or will they insist on a pelvic exam? Finally, a doctor recommended that for patients who have an issue or fears about pelvic exams/pap tests, they should go see a hypnotist. That’s kind of a red flag for me, telling me that something is off, but at the same time, I’ve been told for so long that so much benefit comes from this exam/test. I just feel very, very confused and also scared that I’m being negligent about my health and I feel so scared that something is wrong with me. I saw another comment when I started researching the pap test which said that women feel like their bodies are ticking time bombs and I guess that’s how I feel. I also feel misled because I found the actual statistics for CC and the actual benefits vs. risks of the pap test, only to find there are more risks than anything. Meanwhile in other countries, women are being offered the CSA blood test and self screening equipment, which are both far more accurate and definitely much less invasive. I’ve never been this confused or worried about making the wrong decision before and I’d really appreciate any advice or facts.

Never heard of that! Not sound like I’m interrogating you, but: What country are you in? Is it job-related (like it’s something attached to the job itself, but the job happens to be in another country)? Who told you that? What motive could they have for telling you this? Don’t forget that “informing” someone of something can be a trick. Social engineering (aka: mind games) is an EXTREMELY common thing with medical personnel (it happens a lot with law enforcement, too). It’s like talking in fixed situations (like there’s no capacity for reality to “unfurl” any other way) or making definitive statements (saying “what you WILL be having” or “what they’re GOING to be doing”). It’s the mental version of what a fight is physically. Medical quality is determined by patient satisfaction, not academic value- so it doesn’t matter if someone gives your decision a “bad grade.”

There is a good chance that that is actually illegal, but you don’t always hear about things like this. Sometimes you’ve got to take the time to hunt for things. For instance: it’s (apparently) illegal in America to refuse someone birth control because they decline internal exams. Sometimes just threatening to involve a lawyer or make a complaint to a licensing board is all it takes to get them to back off. Asking lawyers might be helpful (and even if the law says one thing, sometimes they can do all kinds of things to get around that). Maybe psychiatrists. Your body, your rules.

Don’t be deferential (tell, don’t ask- you’d be suprised how many things that are presented are actually nonsense- so even if you fire in the dark, you’ll probably hit something). You telling them that you refuse to have this or that (actually saying it that way), saying that you “elect to reform the situation in (whatever way),” that you decline or choose to omit something- all these are ways to launch an argument (sometimes it’s hard to figure out how to “pull the trigger” verbally). Don’t be ashamed of yourself for not getting these tests (never understood why, but a lot of women feel guilty or defective about that). Your body is not a ticking time bomb (if it were, women wouldn’t outlive men). You’re going to eventually die anyway, so if you decide to not include something in your live, what’s the difference? I honestly don’t know much about the biological specifics, but there are a few posts that get into it on this site. My posts might be more useful in a strategy-guide sort of way. Hope this helps, I know it was long but it sounded like you needed some ammo on a few levels.

No, it doesn’t sound like interrogation. I’m in the US. It is not job related, but I know of a few girls who went to study abroad in the UK and said the exam was a requirement. However, it was a requirement from the US prior to leaving, not a requirement from the UK. Also, I’m going to use the term “requirement” quite loosely as you pointed out in your comment that even though it’s supposedly a “requirement” for birth control, it is illegal to withhold birth control because a woman opts out of the exam. You made a lot of really good points in your post, which were all things I needed to hear, or read in this case. Your post was definitely useful in a strategy-guide sort of way. I know where I stand, but don’t completely have the confidence to back it up yet. However, your post certainly helped so thank you for your reply!

Most other countrys exp. the US, Canada and Germany do not do gyn exams on healthy symptom free woman. I have heard other woman say when they go abrod they see how woman live without theses exams and the doctors tend to be more respectful and not demanding like American doctors. They do offer pap smears after 25 and some contrys its 30. In England they do not do well woman exams but they are pushy about paps at 25. But the bottom line its your bodie and no one can dictate you have any exam.

Yeah, I heard someone say it’s recommended every 6 months in Germany & I think they won’t give you birth control without it, either. I could make a few comments on dictatorial behavior & medical creepyness (seems that’s happened before, if I remember correctly). Better stop before my Ukrainian takes off with me (no offense to any Germans on this site, obviously it doesn’t apply to you). But in all seriousness: you’d think they would’ve learned after all the things that happened along those lines (this is in addition to it’s own issue, of course).

Would love to know different things about the “lay of the land,” if anyone has more information on other countries. I’m thinking of moving to Europe (Spain, Portugal, or Italy- those are my top 3, currently) in a while. Nothing immediate (maybe a year or two), but any information would be greatly appreciated. To provide some of my own: It seems that in all three countries, birth control is over the counter. I’ve heard that about Greece, as well – to a limited degree (something about them being OTC occasionally on some of the islands). Not sure about Norway, but I heard about them at least thinking about giving out birth control in high school like they do with condoms sometimes. Pretty sure Amsterdam is like that (so maybe Holland as a whole?).

You’re very welcome! I have a bunch of other posts on this site that go into greater detail about things- since you found that one helpful, you might like those. Not trying to be an attention-hog, but it sometimes it helps with your overall abilities if you understand the mechanics of different tricks & ploys. You might very well have a sense of something, but have a hard time articulating it (not that you really need to be able to articulate something in order to size things up, but it is helpful for phrasing your argument/launching a counter offensive). Not the only point (because it is a confrontational environment), but keep in mind the structure of the situation: they’re trying to angle this (whatever it is) at you. There’s no need for confidence, that’s what the situation is (the “extant circumstance”). Confidence, in itself, can be a hard thing that might take a while to build, but that’s the way the situation is aligned- faith in yourself doesn’t enter into it. The doctor not thinking highly of you is not an adequate indicator of the situation, either (not really a trustable source, like someone that doesn’t like you calling you fat).

I’m very curious: How did it come up as an added requirement for leaving? I mean: what did they run into? I’m looking to leave for Europe, myself & was wondering what kind of ploys they come up with. I’ve heard of that with immigration physicals TO the U.S. Sometimes they leave out the whole looking people over naked thing (that’s included in the American physical as a specific condition), sometimes they back women/girls into pelvic exams as an added thing (some Italian woman was saying that’s what happened to her daughter when they came over here). Maybe they’d try the angle of “similar themes” (this is what an “immigration physical” is, in general- even though that’s not what it consists of in that country) or the “don’t you think it’s like that everywhere?”

I don’t figure I’d lose my self-control if the doctor said something, but I’m not looking to be provoked or scammed out of anything either. I’m thinking about geting Italian citizenship through heritage (you can do that with a lot of countries, actually), but I’m wondering if there’s any medical attachment to that (it didn’t mention any & a blood test would be sufficient for determining any communicable diseases, but sometimes doctors do the “one’s blanketed by this, which includes that” and don’t give you what you’re specifically looking for). This type of thing is actually a big part of why I’m looking to move. I worry about whatever descendants I might have, too.

I’ll be sure to read some of them, I’m sure they’re full of great psychologic insight into how the system works, as your comments certainly seem to be spot on as far as the whole “mind games” thing goes. I suppose that’s a very good point about confidence, I just feel like if you say something confidently people are more likely to drop the issue and take you seriously as opposed to if you don’t seem 100% sure of yourself or what you’re saying. That was a really good analogy about someone not liking you calling you a name. Good argument.

I don’t know either of the women personally, I only knew of them and about what they said was required, etc. So I’m not sure about the extent of it but they were studying abroad in the UK from the US and they were told here that they’d need an exam prior to entering the UK. It’s likely that they didn’t argue their point, and just went along with what they were told they had to do. Similar to how women here are told they must have these exams in order to obtain birth control, which apparently isn’t true as I’ve recently discovered. In the US, colleges/universities here seem to be far more pushy and insistent about these exams, even more so than normal GPs so if it was a foreign exchange type situation where they were already going to school here, it could have very well someone at their school coercing them into it. There were absolutely no issues from the UK and since the UK is my country of interest, I looked at their immigration and visa website and it says absolutely nothing about any of these exams for people interested in moving there permanently or just temporarily All that they require is specific shots, a few blood tests, a TB test and maybe a few other things here or there (I can’t remember it all). There was asbolutely NOTHING about any sort of intimate exams. Depending on what country in Europe you’re interested in, it probably won’t be a requirement from that country in which case, you could threaten to get a lawyer involved if you feel you are being coerced into anything.

I don’t know much about Italy or what they require, but as long as they have sufficient evidence to prove your health, which can be acquired through blood tests, I don’t see why there would be any issue. As I said though, I don’t know much about Italy so it would probably be a good idea to check out their immigration website. Make sure it’s the actual Italian site though, because the US site lists more requirements than those of the actual countries.

If you are in any Western country, it is absolutely NOT true that you need pap or pelvic to travel! You need a passport to get out of your country and possibly a visa to get into another one, depending on where you are going. Some countries do want to see proof of vaccination for yellow fever, and other countries will ask you to do an HIV (BLOOD) test if you are going to be in the country for extended periods of time. Other countries (I am thinking of Dubai) have some very strict rules on which medications (prescription or over the counter) can be brought into the country so you have to be careful there. That’s usually about it. You can check with every country’s website to see what the requirements for entry are – and you will never, NEVER see a pap/pelvic/breast exam listed there.

As far as ovarian cysts if you are concerned about polycystic ovary syndrome, the gold standard of testing there is a battery of blood tests to check your hormones and glucose levels. Some places rec pelvic exams and pelvic ultrasounds but it is YOUR choice to do those. YOURS and yours alone. The doctors CANNOT insist on forcing you to do a pelvic if you don’t want one. It’s your body and you control the health care you get. If you’re not concerned about PCOS, why would you worry about ovarian cysts otherwise?

You’re not a ticking time bomb. You have less than a 1% chance of ever coming down with cervical cancer, and that is ONLY if you are HPV+ for specific strains of the virus or have something like an adenocarcinoma. You have more of a chance of getting pancreatic cancer, kidney cancer, lymphoma, being hit by a bus. or getting heart disease. You’re not worried about those things every day, are you?

Elizabeth or Sue should have some really good links for you to look at that can show you why paps and pelvics are unnecessary.

I just let out a sigh of relief because I am in a western country. I also took your advice and went to the website of my country of interest, and there was only a requirement for a list of shots and I believe maybe 1 or 2 blood tests, as you mentioned. However, when I was looking at the US website which had info about immigration/temporary visas for the country of my interest, it said a full medical exam was required (we all know what “full medical exam” means). Since it’s not required by the country of my interest, I don’t see how that’s actually enforceable or more than a suggestion/guideline.
I am not concerned about PCOS, at least not at this point. I have had one woman tell me that nearly all women get cysts, some every month but they usually go away on their own. I was completely unaware of PCOS and had to google more info about it. l feel so uneducated and misinformed. I’m glad to know there are blood testing options if it ever becomes of great concern to me.
It is strange that women only seem to be worried about their female organs, isn’t it? I was reading info about testing/screening at a local GP office and they said that CC and a few other gynecological (is that the right word?) cancers are 100% preventable with screening. That seemed a bit off to me. Even though, yes, it does benefit some and catching diseases early surely helps to prevent them from progressing and even some cases getting rid of them entirely, I don’t think anything is 100% preventable in all cases. In some cases, yes. In others, no. But anyways, I think that claims like that certainly make screening more appealing which then leads young women like myself, and even older women to believe that as long as they’re being screened, they won’t end up with any diseases related to the female anatomy. Furthermore, I realized that in my original post I used the phrase “I feel” multiple times. I’d like to think of women and men as being completely equal, but biologically speaking men and women do think different. Women tend to be more driven by emotions whereas men tend to be driven more by logic. So perhaps since campaigns, ads, and scare tactics are all emotionally driven, that’s why women like myself are worried about it on a more regular basis than any other disease or health issue.
All I have to say is that I’m so grateful to have stumbled upon this site. I looked at other sites, trying to find someone to discuss this with as I made the decision, before I even knew some of the facts about innacuracy and risks, that I did not want to participate in this screening. The comments on those sites were not helpful at all and I did not comment because I knew I would be reprimanded. Others who felt like me were being told to grow up and that it’s just part of being a woman and that it’s not that big of deal. Some women were even called names like prudes. Others my age were being told they should’ve had their first exam as soon as they started having a period. There was one comment that haunted me for quite some time in which someone said it’s disgusting that women take the time and money to spend on their hair and makeup which is only for vanity, but not these exams which are life saving. It probably sounds silly but that comment bothered me so much. I enjoy hair and makeup products and every time I’d go to use them, I’d feel like I was committing some great crime against myself because I cared more about my looks than my health. Which isn’t necessarily true, but after reading that it’s how I felt. I felt so torn up over it. Which once again goes back to my point – this whole ordeal is very emotionally driven. I’m sorry this reply was so long, I really just had a lot on my chest and it’s so great to finally see that there are understanding people who encourage you to make your own decisions based off of actual facts, and even then, encourage options and choice regardless of the facts. I cannot express how much I appreciate it.
Did Elizabeth and Sue comment on blogcritics before it stopped working? A few weeks ago, that was the first site I stumbled across and believe some of the statistics I saw about these screening programs were posted by someone named Elizabeth or Sue (there were a lot of comments and a lot of names, so I might be wrong. I’m fairly sure though that some educated comments were being posted by people named Elizabeth and Sue). Shame it stopped working. I went back the other day to try to find links to sites which listed all of the statistics, etc., so I could have them handy and remember them but the comments were all gone.
Anyways, thank you for reply I appreciate it!

It’s very overwhelming to look at all of the information out there. You are to be commended for taking the initiative to do it! 🙂 We as a society condition women to believe that these exams are necessary to health – and yet if you read the actual medical journals and articles, even the doctors don’t believe that.

In terms of long term visa requirements for certain countries – yes, unfortunately that can be the case. You won’t need that for short term or holiday travel, though, and it’s their requirement, not the USA’s. Also, keep in mind that most countries aren’t as hyper about paps as the USA/Canada/etc. is. I’ve lived in a bunch of different places and I’ve had to get visas for a bunch of different countries and never once have I been asked for a pap. When I went to France I did need a medical exam for my job and even then, we never went near that issue. They simply wanted to make sure I didn’t have TB since I was working around kids so they listened to my lungs and sent me for a chest x-ray. That was all. On the other hand someone posted an article that said that working in China requires a full pelvic exam and the works – but they also said that if you simply don’t go and get it done, they don’t follow up.

In terms of cysts, they’re pretty common in a lot of parts of the body. It is just a benign fluid-filled mass like a pimple. Even if you did have a cyst on your ovary it would likely heal itself, and there wouldn’t be much the doctors would do. You don’t want them going in and drilling out your ovaries. Even with PCOS they don’t treat the cysts directly by drilling them out unless it’s really bad; they try to treat the hormonal issues that crop up. So it’s not much to worry about. 🙂

“You are not being irresponsible or reckless. You are making a serious, thoroughly well-informed choice and I would like to extend that choice to all women.” That quote is fantastic. I was surprised that there was such a high rate of false negatives as well. I had already found out about the risk of false positives, but this test just seems less and less reliable the more I read about it.

The information is definitely overwhelming, but I’m glad I’m educating myself on the subject. At this point in my life, judging by all of the facts and statistics I’ve read, I’d be putting myself at very high risk by participating in screening. It’s scary to think that other women in college and girls even younger than me have had to undergo procedures and treatments, that when unnecessary, can be incredibly harmful both physically and psychologically. They’re still harmful I’m sure regardless, but if they’re necessary then at least they still helped someone. (They really need to come out with new procedures and treatments that are less harmful, but that’s a different discussion entirely.)

Yes, other countries seem to be far more relaxed about paps. Especially the UK and I believe Finland as well (that’s where they only test those HPV+ every 5 years from age 30, right? I read an article online and I know it was some country in that general vicinity). I know the UK encourages them and certainly wants women to have them, but it doesn’t seem anything like the US or Canada from what I’ve read.

I’m so glad to know what cysts actually are. I always thought they were all some sort of growth that absolutely had to be removed. What a relief! 🙂

Anonymous you are asking some great questions. In addition to the link from Diane here is a table by Andrew Rouse as provided by Elizabeth in an earlier comment (the article is worth a visit):

Table 1 – to show the benefit gained by women attending the NHS
cervical cancer-screening programme
________________________________________________________
Age No of Alive 10 Alive 10
at start women alive years later years later
of 10 at start of if they attend if they do
year period 10 year NHSCSP not attend
period NHSCSP
_______________________________________________________
25 10,000 9963 9962
35 10,000 9863 9859
45 10,000 9713 9708
55 10,000 9457 9450
______________________________________________________http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/28/women-informed-consent-and-cervical-screening

That is very interesting. So few actually benefited. Also, I didn’t see anywhere where it listed the actual cause of death. So, in actuality, the chart still might not accurately show how many women were specifically helped by the screening, as the control group may have had incidents related to other health issues, natural causes, etc. Very few people are helped by these tests and some of those who would benefite receive false negatives and don’t get diagnosed until much later. Wouldn’t it make more sense for everyone to switch over to something like the CSA test, which I believe has an accuracy in the 90-98% range?

I had another incident with a patronizing doctor yesterday. I was there because I’ve been ill for weeks (I’ve been running a fever for almost three weeks straight) and the doctor starts in with “are you married? when was your last pap smear?” I told him “I’m not here to talk about paps,” and he got totally angry and defensive, and said “I’m here to check you from head to toe!” I just looked at him, and he finally dropped the line of questioning.

Why in God’s name would my marital status have ANYTHING to do with an infection? Oh right, it doesn’t.

Diane I’m sorry that happened to you. This is the reason I avoid doctors. It is truly appalling how women are treated in a healthcare setting. Good for you for asserting yourself. Men would never put up with this nonsense.

Thank you Tanya and Judy! It made me so angry. I had half a mind to ask him if he always asks men about their last prostate exam.

I detest doctors, in all honesty. I really wish I could order my own blood work and prescribe all my own meds and be done with the lot of them. I would do a better job at it than most of the doctors I’ve met. They resent it when I give my input, but 99% of the time when I say that something’s wrong or give them a specific possible diagnosis, I turn out to be absolutely correct.

Why not ask him when HIS last prostate exam was? You could say that you want to be absolutely sure that he believes in promoting health from head to toe. How could you trust him, otherwise?

Not entirely sure, but I think you can order your own bloodwork (at least with some things) & some prescriptions can be gotten online. An added point: these people are certified & look how they act- if that’s what passes for quality personnel & information you can’t really trust them for anything can you? It’s also in their financial (and, in their case, psycological) best interests for you to be unhealthy, anyway. Repeat costs (from having whatever problem that’s never fixed, lying & sabotage or testing/treatments that are inaccurate & problem-causing), financial incentives for tests or treatments, and they’re probably in league with other doctors & share the wealth when they refer someone to one of them.

By-the-way: I remember in one of your posts you had mentioned 25 over the counter medicines that were more dangerous than birth control (one of them could kill in a low overdose). Could you elaborate further (which ones, what effects, what doses, that sort of thing)? I believe you, but it’s a good point to make in an argument & I’m kind of at a loss for details (I know asprin would kill you if you swallowed the whole bottle, but other than that I have a hard time finding comparisons).

Oh yes, I do order some of my own prescriptions online, including the Pill if necessary, but some things are less available than others. Certain antibiotics, for instance. 😦 With the blood work it very much depends on which state you’re in. A number of years ago the medical industry was up in arms about a number of self-testing companies that were cropping up, and it led to more regulation. And for things like MRIs, X-Rays, etc. unfortunately you need to go through the medical gatekeepers. Which bites. 😦

In terms of dangerous medications, I am reluctant to put things like dosages here, because it could be used the wrong way by people who might be googling for ways to hurt themselves or others. I will say, though, that the one with a very low fatal dose is tylenol/paracetamol/acetaminophen. It’s one of the most common drugs implicated in overdoses and OD deaths (both accidental and deliberate), and is the most common cause of acute (quick) liver failure…and unfortunately, it doesn’t have an easy antidote the way some others do.

A third very common one is dextromethorphan, which is a cough suppressant found in many cold and flu drugs. What they don’t tell you is that dextromethorphan influences serotonin levels..and if you’re taking anything else that influences serotonin, you’re going to end up with serotonin toxicity or syndrome, which can kill you.

The one thing I should have added about tylenol/paracetamol/acetaminophen is that one of the most common ways people accidentally overdose is to take different products with it, without realizing the same medicine is in both – they’ll take some tylenol for their headache and then they’ll take a cold medication (a lot of them have added acetaminophen) and suddenly they’re way over the safe dosage.

doctors think all woman are sleeping around and are std riddin. they also think married woman are pregnant. from what I have seen they are trained to asume a womans sex life and view woman as breaders. they use every opertunity to push these exams even when it has nothing to do with the reson you are there. It drives me crazy. If you do not mind me asking did you answer him about being married and what did he say?

Something interesting today: The CDC announced that thanks to Gardasil, there’s been over a 50% drop in HPV infections among young women. And yet they still recommend Paps for women who have had the vaccine (not in this article, but how many times have we all heard “but you need your Pap regardless of the vaccine!!”).

I will admit that as soon as the author there said “vaccines have not been proven to prevent illness” my brain shut off on that page. It seems like nothing but anti-vaccine hysteria to me – most of which is based on one very flawed study which was formally discredited after it was revealed that the researchers had totally falsified their data. Vaccines actually work in a very holistic way – they train the body to make antibodies and protect itself without additional outside intervention.

Vaccine SAFETY, now that is an issue. My concerns with Gardasil would be that it seems to have been pushed through FDA approval very quickly and that there have been some real reports of adverse affects. Guillian-Barre Syndrome is one.

Thats strange because Gardasil has not done so good with alot of woman and girls refusing the shot. So now they will use that to try to force young girls to get the vaccen. Of course they are affread woman will start refusing pap smears they whould lose to much money and power.

I’ve heard bad things about it, too. That they cause seizures, hair loss, extreme back pain (one girl described it like a cross between of a knife in the back and a lighter between the skin & the muscle), sometimes death. They try to get men on it, too. That “unmanly” attention to detail would apply here. Who knows what it would do to either one, but it was a massively rare cancer, anyway. However it was caused, it didn’t usually happen! Considering their previous behavior, I don’t know how much I’d trust them on this.

It doesn’t make sense to worry about extending your lifespan at the expense of it’s quality (then you just have a longer version of a bad life- even if you were immortal, the quality of life would be a pertinent concern). All these tests (and their additional ramifications) would be a reduction in that. I know: someone might not stop enjoying things or deliberately wallow in anything, but some things tend to stick with you. Having something of this nature imposed on you would be a problem, even if someone doesn’t wear it on their face (if someone had an uncle that forced them to “play doctor” or “cops & criminals” it would be well understood how that could cause problems- potentially lasting ones). Don’t mean to go on another rant, but this paranoia about death is something that gets used against people. Self-protection is a bit broader than just not breathing anymore.

I’d imagine (but am not sure) you could get it online. If you were to try to get it from a doctor, it is illegal for them to refuse to give you birth control pills if you elect to not get internal exams. It might not be a problem to get it from doctors, you just have to work all kinds of angles to get them without all kinds of problems. Like adding a “neutralizing agent.” Something starts out poisonous, but a few drops later it’s not.

Overitall, Cerazette is a good one because it is the only minipill to suppress ovulation and you have a 12 hour window to take it unlike the other minipills which have to be taken at exactly the same time. So it is almost as effective as Combined contraceptive pills.

Well, I have an update, but not a good one. My pills were confiscated at the border. I got a letter in the package, instead of what I ordered. Apparently it’s illegal to import pills into Canada–even a small amount. It would be legal for someone who is visiting the country to bring them in, but not for someone who lives here to order them online. Unless I can prove I’m a pharmacist (which I can’t ’cause I’m not) or something, no online pills for me. Boo.

I am mad. First, stay out of my damn mail, government! Second, as if birth control pills are such a subversive and dangerous thing. *&$*$*^^@%% I don’t know if I can swear here, so consider that my swearwords that I would like to tell Customs. 😡

Tanya thank you for the update – and yes it is not a good one. This doesn’t make sense. How did they know what was in the package – was it clearly marked on the outside, as in: BIRTH CONTROL PILLS for a woman trying to avoid INVASIVE AND UNNECESSARY EXAMS? Were they thinking it best to help shut the gates on women trying to find a way out? And if it’s illegal to import pills into Canada, why on earth are companies not alerting the Canadian customers of that fact? Or at least attempting to disguise/keep the packages anonymous? It sucks too that you aren’t able to get a refund. Plus it doesn’t make sense that a woman could bring pills into Canada from another country, but not have them imported into Canada. Are they making these rules up as they go along? This seems like another assault on human, or I should say women’s, rights. I wonder if men have the same issues when ordering Viagra online? My bet would be no.

They knew what they were because–get this–they OPENED MY FREAKING MAIL!!! There was literally a slit in the bottom of the package, the pills had been removed, and the government letter inserted instead. The letter included warnings of “counterfeit” drugs, etc. Then I got two–TWO!!!–more letters saying the exact same thing. Okay guys, I get it. Good lord.

As for the package itself, it was labeled “health supplements.” Interestingly, if you go to the page that was shut down, it was shut down by the US government. I find that to be quite the coincidence. My letters (obviously) were from Canada. Seriously, go check out what used to be the website. It was the rxpro one.

I don’t know about the Viagra. I suspect they would confiscate that, too. At this point, I just hope I don’t get into trouble. I really don’t need any charges or financial penalties. 😦

I’m unsure about Canada, but I know that in the US, opening another person’s mail is illegal. I don’t understand why this doesn’t apply to the government. Obviously, there are situations where it would be necessary, but in your situation, I think a note attached to the outside of the package stating that the pills were counterfeit would have sufficed. Since the website was shut down, I’m likely to believe that they may have actually been counterfeit drugs. Then again, it may have been shut down because other women had the same idea and there’s too much of a market for BC being purchased through the pharmaceutical companies in North America.

As for Viagra, well there wouldn’t really be any need for men to shop elsewhere considering they just ask for it and it’s handed to them without any invasive exams or potentially harmful procedures. However, I have a feeling that they would’ve had more respect than to open the package.

Yeah, I don’t know…I thought maybe they really were counterfeit, too, but the main problem seems to be that they were not from here. It was weird–the letter talked about counterfeit drugs, but the main concern seemed to be the fact that I didn’t get a prescription for them from a doctor here. So were they counterfeit, or not? Why would they be, anyway? I mean I know it’s possible, but what would the company get out of sending fake drugs? If they’re going to send something anyway, they might as well send the real thing.

Plus, included in the letter was the fact that they are birth control pills. So, there’s that. Hmmm…

I’m sorry to hear that, Tanya. Have you considered using natural methods? I know it’s a lot to look up sometimes, but all kinds of stuff can have hormonal effects (diet changes seem to be a big one & a lot of female hormonal stuff seems to be related to the liver not processing things correctly). Maybe you go to a doctor with your husband (as backup)and try backing them into giving you those pills with no bulls#!*. Have you found any Planned Parenthoods, yet?

I don’t know what that means about the domain name & I get that it’s been a huge let-down, but maybe you should check with a lawyer on if it’s actually illegal (don’t know what the names of the law books are, but they seem to have “(whatever country) jurisprudence” or “(whatever subject) code” in the title). There may be a loophole (you’d be suprised what a designation change can do in that kind of situation). It might even change depending on what country they’re from (ex: they’ve got a different trade agreement with them, so it’s not considered a “drug” anymore- maybe they get something else from them that would be considered a drug, so to pave the way for one there’s an exemption for the other).

Thanks. I have considered using natural methods, but I have no idea where to even start. That’s interesting about the liver. What would cause that, I wonder? I didn’t have “issues” during my last period. I don’t know why–whether it was just a fluke or whether the progesterone cream helped. I really didn’t use that much, but maybe it was enough?

I’m sorry, I don’t really understand your second paragraph.

My husband will be coming with me the next time I go to get birth control pills. Still not sure how to go about it, though. My husband actually hates confrontation more than I do! But he is a man, and therefore is afforded the respect that I, as a woman, will never get. So he said he will come with me.

I went to a nautropathic Dr to deal with hormonal issues along with other health problems. I was told I needed a hysterectomy and that my other issues were all in my head. A few years ago my former Dr said I would be back begging for a hysterectomy and that there wasn’t anything a naturopathic Dr could do. Working with the naturopathic Dr and changing my diet and taking supplements l have dealt with my hormonal issues and other problems that shockingly were not in my head (and were tied in with the hormonal issues). To look for a naturopathic Dr in your area check here http://www.naturopathicassoc.ca/

Wth the natural stuff, Rosemary Gladstar writes some books that are specifically geared toward women (the more general books include things for women, too). Like the Herbal Recipes For Vibrant Health has stuff for men, women, older people, and genreal use things (and I’m pretty sure that’s where I learned about that liver thing). She explains all her stuff in good detail, but I’d say the one called Herbal Healing for Women or the Herbal Recipes For Vibrant Health would be the best places to start. The Family Herbal is the same book as the Herbal Recipes one, by-the-way. You can try Google, too (just type in what you want the way you’d say it, for starters- then try different wordings, titles, subject combinations, etc…).

I’m suprised that your husband hates confrontation more than you do! I would think the problem of them trying to back his wife into corners (particularly of that nature) would be all the motivation he’d need, though. Anger can be good fuel! I don’t mean to imply anything about your husband, but I figure it’s worth mentioning that you’d have a SITUATIONAL hostility (not a generic one, treating everything & everyone as an enemy- like anger is sometimes depicted as). It’s not a “one-sizes-fits-all” style of acting (that’s where some people run into problems: they figure they’d need to be that way all the time in order to be that way at all). Maybe discussing that with your husband would help with that?
An (admittedly, long) idea for strategy: (1) Try BOTH of you talking, taking turns at random (instead of it being him OR you). When it’s both of you, it’s a united front & both seem capable (if it was an exact, alternating pattern it would look rehearsed). It’s also harder for the doctor because it’s unpredictable (it’s hard for them to form a strategy & it seems a lot of them have OCD/control freak-type problems). If it were just one of you doing the talking, it’s might look like the other wouldn’t be able to do anything & it would still be one-on-one (and if your husband doesn’t like confrontation, that might be an issue). (2) Also, don’t ask too many questions. Make more statements than requests & don’t try to “recruit” (it’s a pretty common thing for people to try to “convert” or “convince” someone else as a style of argument. To catch someone in a lie or get them to say something hypocritical is a different theme, but still relies on the other party doing something that helps you out.). There’s no need to “get them on your side,” and you’re probably not dealing with someone that doesn’t understand (but if they “don’t understand,” they can’t agree can they?- that’s playing stupid, usually to try to look innocent). (3) Pointing things out, namely that it is iatrogenic abuse to impose these exams on people and the risks & inaccuracies are additional ramifications (as are any resultant problems generated by them- one thing leading to another). Picking their words apart (“we don’t usually give those out without doing these exams”- “well, you’d just be doing something atypical, then”/ “it’s our policy to do this”- “you don’t elect to attack someone iatrogenically or not, much less as a policy”/ “if you don’t like it you can leave”- “well, I could do that, but the patient doesn’t have to compensate for the doctors misconduct which is something I could report to the licensing board. Perhaps I should get a lawyer involved?”). You don’t need to be expending any effort to circumvent what they shouldn’t be doing (liability, I think is the correct word for that). I think me & you discussed all kinds of legal stuff about a month ago (it might have been a different thread) & there is that sexualityandu.ca site that talks about laws (the link’s above).

My second paragraph IS confusing because the idea doesn’t make sense (the law might say one thing in one situation, then say the exact same situation is a completely different thing for whatever shady reason). Not judging a situation by what it consists of, basically. I don’t really know what the possibilities are with import loopholes (maybe it’s actually okay legally as long as it’s an amount that would be for personal use & not distribution). The point about looking things up was a reference to the possible titles of the books you’d try to look for (“American jurisprudence” seems to be the title of a law book for America, so if you were to try to look up Canadian laws you might try “Canadian jurisprudence”). Sorry this was so long, some of my points needed explaining or they wouldn’t have been clear (I was always good at being accurate, but not brief).

Naturopaths are not Dr’s in the sense of a medical doctor but they undergo rigorous training and are specialists in a specific field. Personally I prefer their approach to health than the medical system. They look to make you healthy where I feel the medical system wants you sick, and keeps looking for illness such as through cancer screenings, and on medication as that is how they make money. In BC they can prescribe but not in the rest of Canada (although according to mine in ON they are close to getting that ability). Their focus is on using food and natural supplements to get your whole body back to a state of health. It’s very interesting to me at how everything is connected as opposed to the medical system that looks at your body as being compartmentalized.

They aren’t covered by the provincial health care but some company extended benefit plans pay for them. I paid out of pocket and the first appointment was 90mins and cost around $120 (I’m not sure as it’s been a while). Now when I see her it’s a 30min appointment and cost about $70. After the first appointment I saw her about 2 weeks later and now I see her every few months.

Very interesting, ADM. If you look up something about allopaths & empirics that’s a running theme. I actually just posted a bit on that in on thread or another (it was very recent). I guess they’re not strictly herbalists, but it’s like that? I wonder if midwives can prescribe things?

I’ve being reading a bit on the Traditional Chinese Medicine (did you know it was taught hand-in-hand with the martial arts, back in the day?). It went a lot like that, too. Yang Jwing-Ming writes a few books on that. Apparently- they’d learn all kinds of combative stuff (ex: breaking the finger sideways instead of front-to-back tears ligaments), but also things like relocating joints, setting bones, herbs, effects of diet, chi stuff. It makes sense to learn combative stuff (it can be a very life-supportive thing), but I guess they were aiming at more broad abilities (plus if someone had a training accident or got into a serious conflict, they have that for them or their friends- it even mentions the potential to patch up an enemy & make friends with them).

Tanya I get my pills from UK pharmacies because they are prescribed by a doctor. I have had my packages opened but because they have a sticker from the pharmacist on them making it clear that they have been prescribed they have never been confiscated. I know in Australia we are allowed no more than 3 months supply, so I always have to order them every three months. I think it would be very hard for customs to confiscate the pill when they have been prescribed after an online consultation with a doctor. And if they do, I think you would have a strong case to challenge them. I think it would really highlight the way women are treated as second class citizens and it would be great if there was some media attention to this. I would be writing to the newspapers if this happened to me.
FYI I use either Private Meds or Healthexpress.

Hi, I’m a 15 year old girl looking to get BC (ortho tri-cyclen probably) for mainly period regulation and the acne that comes with my unbalanced hormones. My dermatologist will not prescribe it, my pediatrician prescribed it to a friend, denied doing so, then wouldn’t prescribe it to me, and I was told to go to a gyno but I am not getting a pelvic exam this early. I’m still a virgin and after reading, pap smears seem ridiculous. I’m kind of skeptical buying stuff online because I don’t wan to mess my acne up, well or my body, so what would you guys recommend to do?

First of all, I’m sorry to hear you’ve had so much trouble with your dermatologist and pediatrician. Personally, I would look into more natural remedies first. Especially at your age. I’m sorry to say, but it’s normal for 15 year olds to have unbalanced hormones. Boys are even hormonally unbalanced as well, but you don’t see them taking medication to try to control it or change it. I’m not trying to completely discourage you from BC, if that’s what you really want. However, when used only for hormonal purposes, especially in young teenagers I, personally, tend to be a bit skeptical because every young teenager is hormonally unbalanced in one way or another. It’s just a part of the human body changing and growing up. If you are set on getting BC, though, my suggestion would be that if you can find a parent or adult who is aware of all of the facts (maybe show them this site if you want to inform them?) and have them go talk to the doctor with you. Have them explain that withholding birth control is not a legal practice and that pelvic exams, especially for asymptomatic virgins, can potentially be very harmful. I would suggest that you explain all of this to your doctor yourself, but at your age they’re more likely to ignore what you’re saying and come up with a coercive argument and walk right over you (they even do that to adults, but I think they find it more difficult to argue with an informed adult, they feel as though they have less control over the situation).

As far as irregular periods goes, I’ve never personally known a women who isn’t on BC that has a “regular” period. None of the women in my family have ever had any sort of gynecological problems (this including those who screen and are examined regularly and have no abnormal symptoms whatsoever), and they’ve never had a regular cycle. The body is constantly changing, so it would make sense that an irregular cycle is part of that. I have not studied biology so I don’t know all of the specifics, but for those going through specific hormonal changes, it seems likely that they would have an even more irregular cycle as the hormones are still trying to balance out.

There is a wonderful post here about hormonal balance: http://womenagainststirrups.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=holistic&action=display&thread=4. I believe there are a few comments further up this post as well about how to get more control over hormones through diet. As far as acne goes, I had pretty severe acne myself, but ended up finding a topical treatment that works fairly well. Sometimes I still have a few spots here and there, but nothing a little concealer can’t fix. Do a google search like: acne treatment for _____ skin (whatever your skin type is) or: acne treatment for acne caused by hormones. There are lengthy lists online of different treatments, none which require BC. In fact, some home remedies work for certain people: lemon juice, yogurt, avocado, etc. I recently started drinking a lot more water and my skin looks 10 times better (I only have one tiny spot on my face at the moment!). Also, if you wear makeup often, it might be a formula that’s irritating to your skin and it may be causing your acne or even making it worse. So it could be something as simple as that. I hope this helps, and best of luck! 🙂

Birth control DOES mess you up. When you’re on hormonal birth control, you don’t get periods. You get “hormonal withdrawal bleeding”, which is basically freaking your body out due to the placebo pills (sugar pills) and faking a period. It’s not a real period.

Plus, the artificial hormones increase your risk of some cancers due to the “estrogen” and simply being chemicals. For your skin, I suggest using baby wash (it’s made for super sensitive) and witch hazel (naturally keeps acne away), crazy but it does wonders! Also, are you sure your periods ARE irregular? I thought mine were, but I started tracking mine (mymonthlycycles.com) and it turns out I was having regular but long cycles (36 days).

iI have to agree with Ro overall. But If you really want bc without the exams (and at your age, you don’t need them), your best bet will be to go to Planned Parenthood (Look into the HOPE program, Hormonal Oral contraception without Pelvic Exams). At your age, you are able to get sexual-care (condoms, birth control, tests, etc) without your parents knowing. I’d highly recommend bringing someone with you, doctors are very sneaky.

Ro pretty much said it all, already. Rosemary Gladstar has a few books you might be interested in. One of them is specifically on natural beauty products & skin care & stuff like that, which might cover things about foundational issues (ex: a lot of hormonal issues tend to be a liver problem, fixing that clears up everything/ one thing leading to the other with sugar screwing up the pH- for men & women, actually). She also has things about women’s health (as a specific subject & included with broader stuff). You might also get them from a shrink! A woman on this site (Tanya, I think) did that. They can prescribe things & if it’s causing distress (to put it broadly) it might make sense to go to them (it alieviates a “psychologically offensive” circumstance).

I’d also like to add some things that may be factors in the situation. You didn’t specifically mention any of these things, but I figure these might be points & a lot of them are unsung. I figure I’ll throw some information out there & if it’s useful to you, then there you go. I’ve said a lot of this in other posts & I don’t mean to chant, but it’s not real common information- plus I figure the opposite is maintained quite a bit. I hope it doesn’t come off as condescending, but girls/women your age don’t tend to hear these things a lot (especially in school). Nobody told this kind of stuff to me or any of my friends, so maybe it’ll be helpful to you. It is pretty long, but hopefully it’s not too tedious.

First of all: it’s your body, your rules (virgin or not). Medical quality is determined by patient satisfaction, not academic value, anyway (like the “strategy” you’ve chosen would get a “failing grade” if it were an answer on a test). That’s true with anything, but also any interface with sexual areas as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack (visually or physically). That doesn’t HAVE to be through medical methodologies (which is called an “iatrogenic attack,” by-the-way). The particular tact or variation doesn’t matter (if a doctor poisoned someone with a needle, it’s still murder- it’s just a medical style).
Your alignment on a situation (what you’re cool with) is NOT an inconsequencial thing. A lot of women get told (or it gets implied) that that isn’t a factor in the situation. If something is “against the grain” that’s it. A problematic methodology, even if it’s a means to an end, is an issue. This applies to things being against your orientation, too. Having a woman do something might just add to things, not neutralize them (plus, there’s nothing to say that she’s not a lesbian or bi, anyway- something that people get yelled at for mentioning, but it’s not immature to be accurate about possible ulterior motives). One of the women on this site mentioned a female doctor being particularly rough with her & she found out later that she swung that way! On top of pain, I’d imagine there’d be a seriously high “ick-factor,” I’d imagine.
It would most likely be a good idea to take someone with you, just make sure they’re actually on your side. A woman may or may not be sympathetic to your situation (she might be cut from the same cloth, or not care about someone else’s potential to have a baby because she’s too old to have one of her own, or be in denial about how she got scammed/attacked/whatever). Some women are very nasty about this subject & might not be as supportive as you might expect.
A man might actually be a better idea than you’d think (if you notice: men get VERY entrenched in a confrontation & don’t tend to have an issue with hurting whoever they’re in a confrontation with- plus, probably a bit more intimidating). Just be very direct with them (elaborating mechanics & really spelling things out- a bit of vulgarity helps, sometimes). I posted a lot of things on how to better get a man to help you out, since it’s not always readily apparent (even though women tend to understand men a little better than men understand women).

I am sickened by doctors who want to push an individual into testings one doesn’t want. A pelvis exam? just to receive birth control pills. They have nothing to do with each other. It’s illegal for docs to push other services onto a patient.

I’ve read too many bad reviews about online pharmacies, & I also don’t want my credit/bank info out there, so does anyone know another way to get birth control (Ortho Tri Cyclen Lo, if possible) without an exam?

I recently sent a message to 150 Planned Parenthood email addresses urging them to stop requiring exams for birth control. Doubt it will work, but worth a try.

It’s actually illegal for them to coerce someone into this, so you can potentially get it from them without any problems- it’s a little like filtering bad water. You might say “Are you REFUSING to give me birth control pills?” and that might turn things around right there (an idea from someone on this site is to get them to put it in writing- not that you can’t record the whole thing on a cell phone in your purse/jacket/whatever & there are various “spy gadgets” to buy). The threat of getting called on that & being caught dead to rights is potentially very useful.

A woman on here got them from her psychiatrist (since they can prescribe medication) & that might be a good idea- it causes suffering & mental distress to be backed into these things (of course), so this might be a way of circumventing psychological detriment. Sometimes a shrink might argue with you, but bringing up that a situation is what it consists of (just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder- the properties of the situation don’t change by designation) might end that debate right there.

Actually, just bringing up that any interface with sexual areas as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack (in this case, a penetrative one) & it’s an aggravated assualt if any detriments are realized from risks & inaccuracies. What is someone going to say: “That what happens isn’t what occurs?” This is all called “iatrogenic detriment/attack,” by-the-way & that can be a good word to know- really sends the message that there wouldn’t be much “wiggle room” in court. They don’t have an option to have an antagonistic policy or to attack the patient (iatrogenically or otherwise), so it doens’t matter if they say “that’s the way they do things” & “that’s their style.”

Would it help if I pointed out to them that I have PTSD & panic disorder, sometimes black out when people touch me in a way I find uncomfortable, & have been known to cause bodily harm to those people without any control on my part?

Potentially, but I can see that backfiring in a few different ways. I totally understand the urge to show some teeth & get them to back off without any “harmonious agreement,” but I’d leave that paticular knife up your sleave until you needed it. One problem is that it’s like letting someone know that you have a weapon- it allows them to plan around it.

Another one is the whole “mental health” level: Maybe it spirals into a “response” to someone “unstable” and who knows what happens in a mental institution. I mentioned it in 1 or 2 other posts- but aside from all the unofficial things that can go on, there’s various “security & hygiene measures” that can take place. A lot of people don’t realize that it can go just like intake in a prison/jail/juvie environment- even though that wouldn’t be beneficial to someone’s mental well-being.

I very much feel the urge to warn you of certain dangers that aren’t too well-known & this isn’t to discourage self-defense (at the very least, things might go worse & worse if it’s seen by whoever gets involved that there’s no obstacle generated when someone tries to attack you), but the things I alluded to aren’t just in a “convicted” situation. The same scenarios apply if someone just gets put into jail or prison & there’s nothing legally blocking things off in the case of someone simply getting arrested- the course of “sorting things out” can screw someone up for life. This IS a functional situation of not being free to defend yourself & is pretty antithetical to bettering community environment & protecting someone. At the very least, it’s very likely to cause a drug habit (seems to be part of why Portugal decriminalized drugs) & lashing out (ex: taking it out on somoene else in the cell), maybe depression or relapses if somoene’s had traumatic experiences before.

It might also turn into a “this person’s not fit to make their own decisions so their assessments don’t count” kind of thing in court, if it comes to attempts to impose & filing complaints. The credibility thing goes a long way in court. Keeping “cool & collected” makes you look more genuine- not that you’d be wrong for flipping out, it just might be more potent the other way.

I really hope that this doesn’t come off like I’m trying to call you defective or yell at you or anything, but I do figure there’s some strategic loopholes to that approach. I definitely don’t see anything wrong with attacking someone for touching you like that, but maybe have a trustable witness with you- just in case (if there’s someone around that’ll support you overall & not take the doctor’s side).

I wouldn’t mention the mental health component. Legally BC cannot be withheld because of refusal of a pap or well woman exam. They are unrelated tests to the safe use of BC. Dr’s know this. Tell the Dr that you are aware of this and you want BC with just a blood pressure check. If the Dr refuses have a letter printed out stating that he/she is refusing you medication because of your refusal of unrelated tests and exams. When they refuse produce the letter and ask them to sign it. They won’t because what they are doing is unethical. Be assertive and remember that you are in the right. If the Dr still refuses and becomes angry or aggressive leave and report them to the medical board.

Yeah, I ain’t too good at being assertive. That’s why I’m trying to convince my boyfriend to go with me next time. But I guess SOME people in the medical profession actually have some moral sense, judging by the only email I got back from Planned Parenthood.

“Debbie Cain
2:19 PM (15 minutes ago)

to me
Planned Parenthood affiliates should have the same schedules for pelvic exams but all do not have to offer HOPE visits.

I believe you should have the right to decline or defer a pelvic exam even if you have to have a more comprehensive visit than a HOPE visit.

If you want your boyfriend’s help on this, try being very direct. Making the point that you want him to make sure that no one tries to impose anything penetrative on you (actually saying things literally does help). You may or may not get all kinds of arguments from him & men DO tend to get a bit entrenched, but I’ll try to give you some advice that’s pretty sure-fire.

If he makes the point about them being doctors or that being a medical procedure, try making the point that it’s still murder if a doctor poisons someone with a needle & that a situation is what it consists of. Same deal about all the risks & inaccuracies and that if someone is the type to do these sorts of things, then you really don’t know what you’re dealing with with anything. Not getting scammed & countering an enemy is a pretty big masculinity thing (I wonder why? Maybe things like this come up?).

Overall, any interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack (if someone were to snatch a woman up for some aggressive role-playing, that would certainly be an attack- mentioning that might help). After all, if you two were out somewhere & someone had a camera in a bag or smacked you on the ass- he’d probably flip out, right?

Also, don’t be afraid to be crude to be clear. If the subject of a woman doing these things comes up (because some people think that whatever happens isn’t an attack if it’s done by the same sex), maybe ask “What if someone were to try to get aggressively gay with you? Wouldn’t that be a problem?” Maybe that just adds an against orientation aspect to things. Something like that would probably be an issue as a means to an end, due to mechanics- but as an imposed situation, it’s a serious attack (whether or not there’s any potential utility to it).

That planned parenthood e-mail doesn’t sound like they’d be willing to give you birth control with no bullshit, though. It’s like when politicians talk: they say “they want” to do something, or “they believe” something- but never that that’s how things are going to go. They also sound like they feel pushed around by doing that HOPE program- like they’re being deprived of something. Doctors frequently act like things are up to them & anything other than that, including the patient comporting their own medical situation, is someone bullying them. There was even someone comparing making the doctor give birth control with any exams as a conditional to slavery! It’s like they feel free to customize & comport things as they see fit (an “antagonistic application of influence,” to put it in lawyer terms).

Okay, I guess pretty much none of that applies LOL! That’s a great thing that he’s like that, by-the-way. I wonder when it became some kind of unwritten rule that the guy is supposed to be dainty & useless? It really does seem like someone (anyone, male or female) that’s got an edge is seen in a less than positive light. I’ve got some theories, but I’ll stick to the point.

I wouldn’t suggest he adopt a different style, but for something like this, you might not do everything at once. If it’s not working right away, just walk out. It’s very easy to get momentum going with things like this (they try to back you into something, that raises his hair & provokes a threat, they say something along the lines of “who do you think you are?” or “get out of MY office” and then he flips out in a fairly well-documented situation- in a building).

At first, keep everything “subtle.” Just use words (pointing out illegalities & hostile dynamics, maybe mention filing a complaint with the medical board, etc…). Maybe have everything recorded on the cell phone(s). If things don’t work right away, just leave. If things jump off physically (which DOES happen from time to time), then he’s right there to do what sounds like what would be great fun for him. The dual cell phone recordings would be helpful if cops come. That is a little unlikely if he’s there with you, but they’ve more & more frequently been trying to keep partners out of the room (so that they have no support & can be one-on-one with them). In that case, just leave & don’t even bother or argue him into the room against their wishes- your choice, but I’d suggest you stick together.

This is a massively good reason for birth control being over-the-counter, no “sphere of influence” issues. It IS over-the-counter in other countries & I heard it was on it’s way to getting like that here, but I don’t know what the deal is with that. that’s a big part of why I’m looking to move to Europe (off the top of my head: it seems Spain, Portugal, Italy, Russia & sometimes Greece have that kind of situation- you have to hold your ground in the Czech Republic). Mexico is another one & it’s close to America (don’t know if it’s close to YOU, though), but be careful with doing things like that (people get locked up because of drugs under their bus seats that they had nothing to do with, for instance). Sometimes the cops like to play road pirate, too. Sometimes what happens is people buy up large supplies of things- which might not even be an illicit deal- from the pharmacy, the people at the pharmacy call the cops, who extract a “do it or get sent to jail” bribe & then they split the profits with the people at the pharmacy.

I hope this wasn’t too long-winded, but I like to give background information along with the bullet points- particularly with situations where one thing can lead to another, it tends to be pretty important (like with Mexico, police responses, etc…).

>< It should be everywhere. It can cause problems, but so can every other OTC medication, which is why the only synthetic thing I take is birth control. Though I do think if it's ever OTC in the US or Canada, there should be an age restriction like with the morning after pill.

You know, Kai- there are herbal things with that. I don’t know any off-hand, but Rosemary Gladstar might mention some in Herbal Healing for Women. I wish some people close to me had knowledge like that back in the day- everyone should be able to handle their own problems for various reasons.

As far as age restrictions go, I do think they shouldn’t be sold to people that are still developing, but that’s usually just an excuse to manage adult decisions or impose things on people in general. They always act like they’re looking out for people & like they care about the younger generation- but if you look up that case in Stoudsburg, Pennsylvania where they forced pelvic exams on a bunch of 11-year-old girls (59 of them, if memory serves right) you’ll see that they’re just a pack of perverts & liars wih no souls. They decided to molest a bunch of children medically & the cops, teachers, schoolboard, and doctors supported it. Can’t help but express my sentiments- how is someone going to be a certain way, but not be that way?

I’ve read about things like stoneseed and stuff like that. But there’s so little information on how well it works, & I’d have to get off the pill to really test them, & I just don’t wanna take that risk of getting pregnant from not taking the right herb or enough of it. I’d get my tubes tied, but I’m too young for any doctor to perform a procedure, they’d certainly want to do an exam, and anesthetic goes against my personal principles. I have a massive tolerance for pain, but I think it’s against the law to refuse anesthetic. I wish there was some kind of herb or pill that I only have to take for like a month to be guaranteed 100% sure infertility. If my boyfriend & I ever want kids, we already agree we’d adopt.

They did that to children?! That’s just plain sick! I agree, that was rape. If I knew who did that, I would hunt them down and….ughh! I may not want any children of my own, but as far as I’m concerned, all the children of the world are my babies. I wish I believed in Hell because that’s where child molesters belong!

Well, I would definitely look into that Rosemary Gladstar book (maybe e-mail her personally), that way you can do the birth control thing & have kids if you want to later. It doesn’t have to be this antagonistic & unnatural process to have children, but natural birth & such DOES seem to be more accepted in Europe or South-Of-The-Border (seems like Asia is like that too, at least in the rural areas). I figured I wouldn’t have children, either- but now that I’m creeping up on 30 I think about it a lot.

Personally, I have a “good & bad WOLF” style of ethics. I know there’s no such thing as a “lie-proof statement” or any way to say things so that someone else can’t lie or twist your words, but there definitely is a disparity in quality of actions. What they did is a betrayal of the whole species & wrong on an elemental level. There is such a thing as an “existential terrain feature” & massacring them wholesale doesn’t strike me as a crossing of lines in that way. It DOES strike me as a partial product of people seeming stuff like that as “nothing anyway” & that it would be a non-issue if imposed. Bet those mothers wish they’d instilled some bodily autonomy in their daughters (I’ll definitely tell my daughters “Your body, Your rules” from an early age, if I ever have any). These kids didn’t even fight with them, they relied on other people to support their cause (trying to “recruit” them & “opt out” or “call home”). I’ll say this right now: I’ll raise my daughter to be a little valkyrie & my son to not only bolster that sort of thing, but to be the “Sword of a Cossack” as it were.

xD I doubt I’ll ever change my mind about childbirth. There are already enough kids in the world already who need stable homes (though I’m not sure such thing truly exists) and loving parents. Besides, I don’t like the thought of my vag stretching out enough for a head to fit through, and I heard a lot of women crap themselves during childbirth. I wouldn’t go through that for the whole US deficit. Dx

Well, that’s totally up to you- Your Body, Your Rules. Keep in mind: pregnancy is MADE much harder & more dangerous than it would naturally be. Apparently, having the child in a crouch helps keep things from tearing and lets smaller-framed women have a normal birth instead of a C-section (major surgery in a disease-ridden environment- I even read about this woman that wound up getting her arms & legs amputated because she had the baby in the hospital & caught some disease that is frequently contracted from being in the hospital- they didn’t want to tell her why this happened, either.).

There’s a major difference in environments in different parts of the world, so maybe bringing a child into THAT wouldn’t be as big a problem as bringing a child into THIS (a major part of why I’m looking to move to Europe). If you go to Happierabroad.com, you might find some interesting things about that (there’s a real interesting comparison chart that isn’t a chore to read). Looking up (whatever country) vs. America can be informative, too.

Just food for thought, not trying to sell anything to you. When I was younger I figured I wouldn’t have kids, but I feel differently now. Just saying that it might be a good idea to learn about different things, just so you have this type of information in advance or the ability to pass it on to someone (maybe one of your relatives is pregnant or something). I definitely assess the “medical terrain” of a country now that I know all kinds of implications of things.

Whether or not birth control is over-the-counter is a pretty big sign to me- more autonomy (possibly with everything), the problem of getting corralled into exams to get birth control pills isn’t there (and maybe things don’t go that way unofficially with other medicines or get creepy while somoene’s unconscious). You’d be suprised how frequently anesthetized patients get used as practice dummies on medical discretion.

Information on Situations: I was reading a few articles that were talking about how, in Australia, they grope & probe whoever they can get their hands on- men, women, teenagers- maybe young kids, too. It seems if they get brought into the hospital unconscious, this is how things go (the way the article was phrased, it sounds like the sometimes impose these things on people that are awake & it wouldn’t be real suprising if the just took the opportunity while someone was there- big sphere of influence problem). You hear things like that with Canada & America, too (not sure if this is true or if it happens all the time, but I’ve heard that before any surgery in America they decide to probe someone when they’re unconscious in order to find out if they has a RECORDING DEVICE inserted anywhere that could document thngs that would be useable in court if they screw something up & get a lawsuit!).

I posted on this here before, but the emergency room can be a huge problem, too. Apparently, they frequently do rectal exams on people without their consent (abdominal MRIs & CT scans are viable for detecting spinal injuries, internal bleeding, broken bones, etc…- but rectal exams are not, still it gets incorporated into their pattern of response). The guy in the article I was reading WALKED into the hospital to get stitches on his head where he got cut at work & they said “this is what we want to do,” he refused & they said “well, we don’t think you’re mentally fit to make your own decisions” and held him down & did it anyway. After he woke up (they “sedated” him), he spent three days in jail because he hit one of the doctors as they were attacking him. This, apparently, happens quite frequently with car accidents & falls, but they sometimes try to comport things in a sexually confrontational way when someone just goes to the emergency room.

Probably goes that way with kids, too (and 2 of my cousins went to the hospital when they got hurt as kids & they made them take all their clothes of- supposedly to see if they had any marks from being hit at home!) Child molestation in order to investigate child abuse is something that happens frequently, as well. They frequently try to take people’s children away if they don’t get them vaccinated or put them on some medication or another- one couple got their kid taken away because the woman didn’t want to have a c-section (which they imposed, anyway) & they decided to act like she was hysterical & not mentally fit to care for the child (the husband was deemed the same, since he agreed with her & didn’t think she was being hysterical, either).

These are just general warnings, distribute them as you please. Just keep the terms “iatrogenic attack” & “imposed interface with a sexual area” in mind.

I haven’t heard of those things happening, but it wouldn’t shock me. SO much gets covered up here. Plus I avoid doctors and the like, so I have no clue what any of their standard protocol is. Aside from the brief consultation to get my BC prescription, I haven’t been to a doctor in 4 years. It was for my high school physical. Only 1 vaccine were required, but they suggested 4 more and my doctor went with 3 of them. The only one she didn’t make me get was Gardasil, and I can’t remember how I got out of that. Even without Gardasil, the 4 combined vaccines made me black out and essentially paralyzed my arm for a week.

Holy shit! You know there’s a whole thread about that Gardisil vaccine & the problems it causes (seizures, hair loss, outright paralysis- all things someone looks for in medical assistance). Good thing you didn’t get it or we might not even be having this conversation.

Refusing vaccines tends to be tricky, particularly with kids (ex: not using the right reasons, even when there is a provision for that overall- it’s got to be stated as a religious thing or whatever the exemption is, otherwise they decide to impose them). Not trusting the situation doesn’t seem to be one of them. Isn’t it interesting that someone needs to justify not having these things happen? Also, that lack of inclination isn’t considered a good enough reason.

Well, you COULD- but it might get considered a cult. Not sure about that, you might be able to claim personal religion.

What you could probably do along those lines is a religious interpretation that goes your way. “Sanctity of life” & all that (like when people split hairs about earings or tattoos being a deformation of the body) or just that it simply risks detriment to life which you hold sacred religiously. Not sure if you saying “that you think vaccines are a tool of the devil” would actually work, but it might be an angle if it doesn’t make you look crazy.

Not entirely sure what the deal is as far as not trusting the situation & that being grounds for exemption. It IS like the medical equivalent of someone putting a gun to your kid’s head & pulling the trigger- it’s either goes off or it doesn’t & you find that out through experience.

Kai, I use the UK pharmacies and they are completely legitimate, but if you are in Canada you won’t be able to get them. I just got 3 months supply just this week. It took only a few days for them to send it from the UK to Australia. The satisfaction of opening my door and finding them on my doorstep delivered by a courier, without having to walk into a doctor’s office is priceless.

Birth control pills never cured my acne. What did….. I stopped using the “special” acne soap that my mother told me to use which was shared with her and my siblings. I bought my own mild soap/cleanser and moisturizer which I would not let anyone else use. No more breakouts. Once my mother started using the liquid cleanser her acne cleared up too.

Soap bars and dish dishes and wash cloths get contaminated with bacteria that cause the pimples. The special acne soap dries out the skin which produces more oil to compensate.

There are plenty of herbal pills or teas that can help regulate hormones.

If you take hormonal birth control for longer than 5 years then you are considered at a higher risk for cervical cancer. I understand once you are off the Bc that risk will go away after a time. However this is misused by doctors in their screening and push to get to have Pap tests and unneccessary treatments. I would like to know the truth. I don’t think that it is 5 years accumulative for life that the risk increases because that is just ridiculous. Anyone know about this?

For example if a women takes hormonal bc for three years, goes off, has a baby and then goes on after two years for two years if that going to increase her life time risk of cervical cancer?

Moo different pills work in different ways. Some are antiandrogenic, some are not. It is the male hormone that causes acne in most cases. So pills that suppress the male hormone in our bodies (and not all do) will reduce acne.
As for increasing the risk of getting cervical cancer, those kind of statistics are always misleading. It won’t increase your chances if you haven’t caught the HPV virus in the first place. And when they say increase they usually mean the 5 in 100,000 that got cervical cancer were not on the pill compared to the 6 in 100,000 that were (just making the stats up). Usually the difference is just measured by an extra case or two but it does not mean my personal risk has increased. And how they can really find a causation when there are so many other factors to consider makes me think that they are really drawing a long bow if they are able to link the two when there are so many confounding factors.
Cervical cancer takes ten years or more to develop and I haven’t seen any studies examining a woman’s contraceptive pill taking history and cervical cancer because it would be a very huge complex study. I would challenge any doctor that told me that there was a link
I think I read that the pill does make changes to the cervix so I think doctors are just speculating that there may be a link. Because to them cell changes automatically means not normal which means potential cancer. We now know that most cells do not turn cancerous just because they don’t look normal. I’d say our body has pretty good system in place of getting rid of the abnormal cells. Doctors need to stop being obsessed about looking under the microscope and wanting to examining every cell.

You know, I heard something that definitely applies here (also, I am slightly paraphasing): “Understanding tends to bring a sense of control.” This was specifically in reference to martial arts & always having set patterns & katas- that someone feels a sense of mentally encompassing something & thinks they have a “kinesthetic” control over it (like being able to bend your own arm or leg at will). Definitely seems to be the way doctors & other medical personnel act & they definitely have the whole “pervy” thing going on. There’s a preponderance of commandeering behavior on their part & they frequently act like someone else is controlling them to steer their own situation.

I’ll end off with the observation that “altruism doesn’t produce ownership.” Someone having charitable feelings doesn’t entitle them to act according to their discretion- so the lie is a moot point, as well. Also, the components of a methodology don’t cease to exist in their own right- a frequently omitted point when someone acts like if something’s a means to an end it’s innocent.

Good news if you live in the St. Louis, MO/Southwestern Illinois area! They do not require exams or pap smears to begin or continue birth control, you just simply sign a refusal form when you’re 21 and they’ll renew your prescription.

I asked. xD And I meant to specify Planned Parenthood. I guess that’s just how they do it around here, but most seemed kinda shocked that other PPs require it. I asked multiple workers multiple times just to verify. Only one NP asked why I wouldn’t want an exam, and I simply asked “Why would I?” She started to say the shit about medical importance blah blah blah, and I gave her the same speech I gave my mother and mother-in-law. I’ve explained it so many times I don’t even hear myself explaining it anymore, and it probably sounds like a recording.

I know what you mean about having the same arguments over & over to the point where it’s like a canned lecture. Isn’t it amazing how often you have to prove reality to people? Never mind all the risks & low utility levels or the capacity to get falsely diagnosed with something (for any number of reasons)- they act like a situation ISN’T what it consists of! Properties don’t change by designation, yet they seem to think reality takes a coffee break for doctors.

I actually had an argument last night with my mother’s boyfriend (and her, a little bit)- it was on him getting backed into a colonoscopy to get a discount on his insurance payment. It seems he can’t really afford to do without it & I maintained that they don’t get to be coercive with things like that. People in this country are absolutely servile when it comes to their jobs!

We argued for I don’t know how long & about the subject of the employer not having a right to abuse the employees that work for them. They were both of the mindset that they can for all purposes treat you like their furniture & threaten to fire you if you counteract this. Oh, and like someone can simply select somewhere else to be like they’re picking grapes! This same thing happens with doctors- instead of their behavior being redirected, someone esle should try to escape.

This is like me saying “It’s my car, I’ll drive it over whoever I want” or “It’s my machete & I’ll swing it through the store if I want to, someone can just move out of the way if they don’t want to get chopped.” Such a presentation of innocence & offended liberty! You’d think they were all named “Spartacus,” except that they’re the ones being dictatorial.

Hello all,
Would someone kindly advise if a male who is opposed to all the invasiveness, and vile degradation of this exam would be welcome to post his opinions here? I do have to ask because it does say “forwomenseyesonly”.

Hello Not With My Lady You Don’t. I appreciate your thoughtful query, and yes, males are generally welcome here. A number of men who have commented in the past have had an agenda that is not well received by the informed women here, but there have also been some who share our concerns. A member of this community (Elizabeth, Aust) put it well when she commented that this is a topic that should unite, rather than divide, the sexes.

Hello Sue, I learned 6 years ago to ask FIRST. This lesson came at the hands (or should I say horns) of 8 women who ambushed me for responding to a question that one of them posed which was “Is it immoral for a woman to see a male gyn?” I (stupidly) took the bait – hook, line and sinker.
I don’t know what you mean by “agenda” of men who have been here previously, but based on the second part of your sentence I assume that they had some negative comments (?).
I’ve read all of the comments of the thread and assure you that I do agree with most. And I say “most” only because I’m not a big fan of chemicals i.e. birth control pills. The reason being is that they are systemic in that the chemical is distributed throughout the entire body. My personal preference is the spermicide suppository. Having said that, it’s flat out wrong for any Dr. to hold B.C. pills back from anyone who wants them based on intimate examinations!

Before I forget to mention it, I noticed in your very first comment that you mention being in favor of promoting holistic and respectful health care. I have to say, I don’t think it possible to have respectful health care when the exam itself is so disrespectful! This is an exam that has haunted me in one way or another for several decades, and I don’t mind one bit going on record saying that I’m 200% opposed to just about everything that deals with it. Women have been lied to, deceived, frightened into believing they’d die without it, photographed (secretly), and even raped while exposed. Even the Center for Disease Control is to blame. Why? Because their site page on the topic of pap smears had a statement that use to appear to the left side of the cervical cancer occurance chart that said: ‘The least likely group of women to contract cervical cancer is the 18 to 30 age range.’ (paraphrased) I cited them on other web sites and noticed that they eventually eliminated that claim !

I have so many problems with this subject I could probably write almost endlessly. Have you, or has anyone heard of Dr. Nikita Levy who worked as an ob/gyn at Baltimore’s Johns Hopkins hospital since 1988? His name can be googled. That’s probably better than my posting just a link or 2. Honestly my biggest problem is males that choose this ‘area’ of health care. Nature, God, or whoever each of us believes is the creator didn’t intend men to do this. By our nature we are the sexual aggressors. It is that way to insure continuation of the spices. Males in the role just makes no sense to me.
Thanks for the welcome Sue. I hope I’ll be able to contribute a good male viewpoint going forward.

Nice to see you Not With My Lady You Don’t. I can understand you wanting to ask first after being ambushed as I imagine that was not a pleasant online experience! When I mentioned that some men who have commented here in the past (on other threads on this site) had an agenda I was referring to those men who attempted to discredit and/or belittle the women here – or, even worse, attempted to recruit the women here into screening. Needless to say, those men were not welcomed into the fray.

I appreciate you sharing your views on the exam, and I agree that it is not possible to have respectful or holistic health care when women are, as you say, “lied to, deceived, frightened into believing they’d die without it, photographed (secretly), and even raped while exposed”. What I find most upsetting is the way in which women remain unaware of the fact they are within their rights to refuse the exam. Unfortunately many women are not aware that they are ‘allowed’ to say “no”. And of course many doctors do not offer a choice or even reveal the fact that women have a choice – they remain silent and the women remain uninformed. The propaganda has already done the talking for them.

Elizabeth’s (Aust) comment (re: this is a topic that should unite, rather than divide, the sexes) also referred to men being harmed when the women they love are harmed. The psychological and physiological harm that women suffer as a result of this testing, and as a result of the coercion and fear mongering, can be extensive and long lasting. Relationships can suffer, some women are put off sex, others may be put off men entirely. It is a tragedy that this testing has caused so much suffering, and for so long.

It is interesting how the Center for Disease Control had revealed that the least likely group of women to contract cervical cancer are the 18 to 30 year olds. Not surprising that they took the information off the site! This makes perfect sense, because generally all cancers are extremely rare in young people, and become increasingly less rare as people become older. Here is a graph showing cancer incidence by age (all cancers): http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/incidence/age/

Not With My Lady You Don’t: I’m a guy & I had been thinking the same thing when I posted. Sue, I’m curious: Why is this site named the way that it is? Is it to make sure that it’s mostly women that aren’t going to do the “you bitches are stupid” line? Not trying to get you to change it, but I remember being asked why I was going on a site the sounds like it has a guideline that men aren’t supposed to go there.

Anyway, I figured since other guys did & it wasn’t a problem (unless he was being a dick, of course), I posted some things that I picked up that I figured would help people not get backed into corners or get duped into different things (since the workings of various tactics of bullshit & “mental vitiation” can really help with not get swayed by them).

Don’t know how much of a help I’ve been, but it seems that I’ve had some positive effect & I’ve had a bunch of people in my life that have had bad things happen in theirs (both things that were considered an issue & things that weren’t, but still caused problems like one), so it’s a topic that holds extra signifigance with me. Sure, severity & prevalence are big points & if you don’t pick up on problems, you don’t pick up on them as warning signs, either- poor quality control can show up as all kinds of shit that gets aimed at you & yours.

Anyway, just wanted to make a point that you’re not the only guy on here & what someone of my own background is. Figured I’d answer a few questions ahead of time.

Alex, the name of this site was born from a desire to create a space for, about, and by, women. I was thinking of how to invite women, rather than of how to exclude men. I was not thinking of men when I named this site, I was thinking of women.

Oh, that makes sense. Sometimes I miss the obvious, haha. Well, it seems to have been effective. Didn’t a massive amount of people view this site? I remember an award of some sort a while back.

By-the-way: Sorry if I sounded offended earlier. Might be over-thinking things, but I figure I might have sounded like I felt snubbed in some way.

I think a lot of guys DO wonder about this type of situation, but they just keep it to themselves so as to not come off controlling or something. It’s also kind of an awkward thing to discuss casually (granted, I’ve figured out how to do that- “shooting from the hip” without being vulgar or overly detailed seems to work fine).

I’d imagine a pushy doctor isn’t what a lot of people picture as a threat, too. There so much susceptibility to low-key methods of doing things that you get a kind of blindness to things like that. I’d think that, with everybody constantly trying to figure out every angle that someone could take to go after them in some way, that things like medical attacks & sanctioned antagonism would be more apparent.

Alex, I didn’t think you sounded offended, and as you already know you together with your maleness are very welcome here! Besides, the interest in the topic here and its many ramifications seems to trump the sex of the speaker.

Hi Alex, I’m with Elizabeth (Aust)…..I thought you were female too, lol, sorry. Either way, I think both genders should be able to discuss mature subject matter intelligently. On the other hand I do NOT think that any male can intimately examine a female without a serious degree of gratification. It flies in the face of nature. (imo)

Not With My Lady You Don’t: Yeah, I guess “Alex” would be presumed to be female in this case. The thing is, my actual name IS the short form of “Alexander.”

I agree with what you said about a man most likely getting a thrill out of the situation, but I disagree with what you said about men being “sexual aggressors” for two reasons:
One is that if you mean “aggressor” in the sense of “making the first move,” women do that too, sometimes (personally, I prefer it- that way I know if I should bother).

Two is that men don’t necessarily have a taste for compulsion. The physiological overlap might be something that is craved, but that’s not all there is to the situation.

I don’t know why women care so much about whether they have a given option. I get how someone might not know that these are optional things, but suppose it WAS mandatory? What’s the idea? To not tread on someone else’s lines, even if they draw them to include whatever part of you? A requisite being cancelled third party CAN be a good thing. I guess there’s such a thing as counteractive conquest, too. There’s no way to say anything so that someone else can’t lie or twist your words on their own, so don’t worry too much about “making your case” without having any possibility of sounding tyrannical.

It’s just like with the law: You might have all kinds of legally supported options, but that might not functionally be what you’re dealing with. That the law COULD have said something fair & just is not a reason to care about it when it doesn’t.

I guess that’s a point with medicine, too. Sure, they COULD have been useful in a different situation- but they acted antagonistically, instead. They might very well have various abilities, but not USE those abilities in a way that you’re looking for.

Alex, I thought you were female! Alex is often an abbreviation of Alexandra and a friend has called her new daughter, Alex Rose. I just assumed, so your posts are so empathetic and insightful, you’ve almost become an honorary woman, as far as this site is concerned anyway.
Some men don’t buy into these issues, sometimes their partners don’t feel comfortable talking to them about it, perhaps, the men have picked up on the public message, “women must have pap tests or die”….others feel embarrassed discussing things like pap tests.

But it doesn’t surprise me when men want to post, let’s face it, like us, they have few options if they want to speak critically about these issues. Over the years I’ve heard from men who’ve lost partners after medical abuse, (they ended the relationship) who have difficult sex lives because of the unnecessary barriers around the Pill or their partner refusing to see a doctor after past abuse/trauma. I’ve heard of women going off sex after a traumatic and damaging “treatment”…others feel dirty because they find out they have HPV (STI) and needed a treatment. We have never received honest and complete information so it’s hardly surprising many women (and men) have been misled, deceived, manipulated, misunderstand etc.

I heard from a man who was shocked when his fiancee announced the wedding was off, she couldn’t go through with the exams to get the Pill, she’d been told if she wasn’t mature enough to have the exams, she wasn’t mature enough to have sex or get married.
He was desperate for information, ways to help his fiancee.
Women damaged by over-treatment and cone biopsies can go on to have miscarriages, become infertile, have (and some may lose) premature babies, some of these babies may be left with a permanent disability, some women have very stressful pregnancies, requiring bed rest and cervical cerclage…others develop depression or PTSD. Obviously these stressful things will also, affect men’s lives and well-being and put pressure on relationships.
So how could we be surprised that some men are just as concerned about medical abuse and the treatment of women. Some men display the emotions we see on this site, anger, pain, despair and frustration.
Many of these men feel desperate and hopeless, how can they protect their partner from this abuse and keep her safe?

Elizabeth: I got a big laugh out of what you said at the beginning! Never heard the term “honorary woman” before.

Thank you for your compliments! I appreciate that a lot & it’s my pleasure to assist with this. It feels good to be able to take a swipe at a problem that DOES stick in my mind a bit. Part of that is the instituted risk. There’s all kinds of shit that can fly off, but things being set up is something that allows for pervasiveness. The prettied-up image is also something that get’s me riled-up. I really get pissed about how people argue that reality basically takes a coffee break for doctors (or anyone, really)- that “oh, this happened- but it’s not what HAPPENED.”

I have had two completely pointless biopsies because of inconclusive pap smears. My cervix was too weak for pregnancy, so I ended up with two months bed rest, hospitalization, and some hard rubber (passah?) to seal my cervix instead of stitches.
I’ll never have another “just in case” biopsy.

Jackie: Well, one important thing to mention is that it’s actually illegal for them to back you into exams to get birth control- so you could potentially transform the situation, much like boiling water to make it safe to drink. Another thing is that Planned Parenthood will, theoretically, give them to you for at least six months without any bullshit (reality sometimes goes differently).

I’ll admit that I don’t know any sites, but in case you can’t find them here’s some things that you can say that can help make them give these pills to you:

Right off the bat, properties don’t change by designation. If a doctor were to poison someone with a needle, that’s still murder. This applies to other assaultive things, as well. In this case, it’d be coercive iatrogenic assault & reproductive endangerment (because it’s an interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making & there is the risk of various reproductive problems as an additional ramification, much like catching a disease in a conventional attack- or an unconventional one like this, come to think of it).

A situation is what it consists of & reality does not take a coffee break for doctors. What’s their argument going to be? That what happens is NOT what occurs? That’s presentative of a counterfactual condition (a technical term for making bullshit out to be real).

Without a prescription might be hard, but you can get the prescription without all kinds of forced exams. A woman on here actually got them from her shrink!

It’s actually illegal for them to force you into these things & withhold birth control if you don’t go along with it. To make them do things can be hard, but sometimes just telling them to put it in writing that they refuse to give you these pills without a pelvic exam can be enough to make them back off.

You can also get into all kinds of terms like “coercive iatrogenic assault & reproductive endangerment,” but that takes some explaining. It’s pretty simple to make the point that properties don’t change by designation & if a doctor were to poison someone with a needle it’s still murder- this would be an easy thing to point out. Simply saying that it’s an interface with a sexual area (specifically a penetrative one) as a product of someone else’s decision-making & that’s an attack should be enough to get around all that “reality takes a coffee break for me” reasoning. A situation is what it consists of, after all.

If you feel pressured, take off. Doesn’t matter if they want you to leave or not.

Thank you so much for this! I used one of the first sites mentioned. A country that doesn’t require scripts for many medications. I tried canadaonlinepharmacy, but they are holding my order until I send a script.
I have or had a script, but an uppity RN at Planned Parenthood TODAY told me it was void and that I had to make another appointment before I could get more pills. My script was written in July with 12 refills. The NP told me she’d see me in a year. Yet somehow this nurse held the power to deny my prescription. I somehow angered this nurse by telling her I did not want to switch from brand name to generic. I honestly do 10x better on brand name, but she basically called me an idiot for saying that. I asked her to send my remaining refills to Rite Aid. She argued with me, then decided to tell me I just didn’t have anymore refills. I provided the orignal script, and she told me it was useless. I feel like I was taken advantage of and bullied. I have been upset all day. This was Planned Parenthood of Western NY on Center Rd.
This Is the fourth time in 10 yrs that a Dr office refused to give me a script that I had already paid for. After 6 months, they tend to void the rest of my refills and demand I make another appt before I can get more. I am a 34 yr old, fit, non-smoking mother of one, with zero medical problems.
The birth control I just ordered is the UK version, but if it helps with my endometriosis pain, that is all that matters to me. That is my #1 reason for taking the pill.
I’m going to another Planned Parenthood on Monday to discuss what happened. To see if my script has really been voided or if that nurse was just being a bully.
Being denied birth control from Planned Parenthood is truly ironic. I pay full price in cash too. Well, they just lost hundreds in revenue until they get as up to date as the PPs in Minnesota and WA state.

It seems that a change in diet can actually do a lot for this. The American diet is so fucked-around-with it’s sometimes hard to call the food anything other than chemical weapons. Anyway, there was something in Rainforest Remedies abut using massage to help with the general functioning of things. Didn’t read the whole book, but I remember the reference.

As for holding your prescriptions hostage, I don’t know what difference them saying “no” really makes. If you go to a place with the prescription & it says that you have however many refills, what difference does the consent of medical personnel make?

[Telling Them This Might Get Things Going]
Well, it IS actually illegal for them to refuse to give you birth control if you don’t let them probe you. Not that it makes that much difference, since anything at all can be sanctioned & you’re only dealing with actions to begin with. Anyway, it amounts to iatrogenic assault & reproductive endangerment. Right off the bat, properties don’t change by designation, just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle it’s still murder. This is an interface with a sexual area (specifically, a penetrative one) as a product of someone else’s decision-making, which is an attack. There doesn’t have to be any wrestling & screaming or be a conventional variation.

[Alternative Strategy]
So it sounds like Planned Parenthood is being bossy, but it might very well throw them if you act like you’re the boss of them. I really think it’s hard enough to argue with someone that’s so closed-minded & arrogant that it might work as a counteractive tool, if you act like this in particular situations. Basically, it’s like “You DON’T have freedoms or equality, you do as I say” but back to them. They act like “I own you,” and you counter with “I own YOU.” Doesn’t have to be your general manner of behavior, just a situational one.

I’ll update tomorrow evening. That’s when I go to an affiliated PP. I also emailed the headquarters. That is how wronged I feel.
The original Rx has been refilled at least six times by PP. If I took the Rx to Rite Aid, they’d still have to verify. Doesn’t matter now since I ripped it up in her face. That nurse was far too angry to pay any attention to me. I am very assertive and stared her down whilst pleading my case. I also had my kid with me, who was driving me nuts. I was not in a place to make anything happen. I was actually afraid I would get kicked out from the way the young nurse was acting.
I have other options. There is urgent care and the health dept. I am expecting an online order from Mexico. We’ll see if I receive it.

I think a big problem is that they figure they have an avenue to kick someone out of the place. Sure, they could still balk at giving you what you want without any probing being imposed- but it’s a present entity that’s working at applying influence. A person being there trying to get things to happen is at the very least someone that might attack them if they don’t do it.

It’s an odd thing to run into people that act like Spartacus about pushing people around, isn’t it?

Anger and defiance. She repeatedly told me it was a worthless script, and then I was thinking I WILL NEVER COME BACK EVER! Haha. There are probably 5 PPs around here, all connected. All with my script on file. I guess I really believe that script had been voided. The nurse was pretty much out to get me by the time I left. Why? Because she was angry that I wanted the brand name pill I have been receiving since July. I was very pleasant as always, and still pleasant when I told her brand name works better for me. To which she interrupted me to say “I’m not going to get into a debate with you”. She told me it was the same as taking ibuprofen instead of Motrin. I’m sorry, are you a Pharmacist or a nurse? I actually work in Pharmacy. I would hate for this nurse to get a job in hospice or something similar. She is such an angry, young person.

Sounds like she’s just a nasty little bitch that got some kind of title & acts like queen of other people’s biological situations.

What difference does it make if you get brand name stuff or not? You’re the one paying for it, right? It’s GETTING paid for, right?

This works better for you, yet she’s saying it doesn’t? She’s basically arguing that something ceases to exist despite its existANCE! I’d slap the living shit out of my kids if they acted like that. “Oh- you were lying but you had your fingers crossed?” [SMACK & Cross Fingers] “I didn’t hit you.” Now they’re sane AND honest.

Could you imagine what the look on her face would have been if you’d said: “You’re right, you’re not going to get into a debate with me- you’re just going to do as I say without argument.”

Anybody have any luck with online ordering lately? My packs are running low and I’m being forced into an exam in order to get refills. I have tried some of the site above, but they are all dead ends. I understand the risks I take by not wanting the exam, it should be my choice.

You could probably counter-force the situation: It amounts to iatrogenic assault & reproductive endangerment to push you into this. Just mentioning that it’s illegal or telling them you want it in writing that they’re not going to give you these pills if you don’t let them probe you can be enough to make them back off.

I’ll tell you what I’ve told a bunch of other people before: Properties don’t change by designation, just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle it’s still muder. This is an interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making, which is an attack. What are they going to say? That what HAPPENS isn’t what OCCURS?

Saying “It’s not like that, it’s a doctor” doesn’t make sense. It’s not like what? Reality? Reality doesn’t take a coffee break for medical personnel.

Speaking of medical personnel, a woman one here got them from her psychiatrist, but I wouldn’t rely on that (since a lot of shrinks start doing that “dictation over observation” thing).

It seems you can use a lemon or lime cut in half to work like a diaphram that also kills STDs or a tampon soaked in lemon/lime juice & vinegar. Use your own discretion with that, but it’s something I heard of.

It is atrocious that many women are having to resort to buying pills online and managing genuine health conditions such as diabetes without the assistance of doctors because they fear medical pressure and bullying to have these humiliating tests and exams. This is a bl**dy national scandal! And yet no one says anything about this or speaks up for these women in the general press. They are likely to face intense pressure to submit to these exams from doctors and other women, who are inadvertently colluding with these propagandists to keep the screening lifeline going. The little support there is comes from a very few select informed women and in many instances, husbands and partners, completely bewildered by the pressures women face to electively screen for an ultra rare cancer.
Is anyone aware of specific blogs or websites where women go to seek advice and information about this issue? Too often, those who do ask if there are alternative methods to screening are shouted down by other women who tell them to “grow up” and go “suck it up” and get the test done. Women are their own worst enemies.

Hey everyone! I came here a few days ago looking for a way for me to obtain BC without a pelvic exam, as I have never had one and only had intercourse once so far in my committed relationship (we waited over a year and are both 24, so not teens). I considered these options and links for days, but it didnt sit well with me to take something I had no way of knowing was real, for all I know I could have ended up ingesting drywall (ew!). I had about given up until I learned that BC is practically OTC in my home state of California. I had to find out more so I searched around and found an app that allows me to fill out a questionnaire, record a video of myself saying my name for verification, and then get a 100% legit and legal prescription sent to my pharmacy for pick up! I picked my Seasonique generic today and it was covered by my insurance 🙂 While they say it is only available in California, you can use even an international ID to use this app, you just need to have someone pick up the pills in CA and then..you know take the risk of shipping pills if thats what you want to do. The app is called PolkaDoc https://www.polkadoc.com/ and it really made it very easy and that dr is very helpful and understanding!

Ah, I see. Yeah, the guys saying that are likely a bit pushy in other areas. In truth, I can understand a woman not wanting another woman sticking something in any of her parts (a man shaking another man’s thing when going to the bathroom would be an issue). Either way, gratification is only an accentuating factor at most- someone doesn’t have to get any kind of gratification from cutting someone’s head off, either.

I never got how it was supposed to be “adult” or “mature” to basically ignore aspects of a situation, much less not to make one’s own independent decisions on things.

It is completely legal for women based in the UK to purchase a repeat supply of their contraceptive pill online. As long as you have had a blood pressure check up in the last 12 months, you can avoid the hassle and order your contraceptive online from a string of UK registered pharmacies like dred and drfelix.co.uk at a cheap cost. You still need a prescription as it is a POM drug in the UK, but atleast will have the peace of mind it is safe and from a regulated NHS pharmacy and not some warehouse in Thailand.

I just saw another disturbing post by a male fb friend. A pic of a woman’s legs up in sturups. With the caption ” you need to clean that junk before you come hear.”. I was so annoyed. This is America and just about every one hear jokes about gynos BC were told that we all have to go. My grandmother even told me that and I told her I was an adoult and not to bring it up again. So rediculas.

That’s pretty creepy. I don’t know when men got so vain about their own stuff- it’s almost effeminate in a way. I don’t think a woman should just blow off bathing or whatever, but the males seem to almost be like women about appearance & being repelled by all kinds of details (really, what is the big deal if the guy’s SHOES are dirty?).

Yeah, I’ve noticed that the subject of gyne exams are often slipped as jokes into some plotlines or scripts on some American dramas and sitcoms like Jane the Virgin (which is now being unfortunately broadcasted in the UK) and Big Bang Theory. I find it quite disturbing and unneccessarily politicised and embedded within a script when there is no need to do this. It is definitely done to normalise these procedures.

Yes that’s how she was impregnated, by going for a pap smear instead accidentally impregnated. She should never have been told to have a pap in the first place. I’m tired of the jokes that make woman feel its just a nessesry evil. I don’t like it one bit. And that other ABC sitcom about that young chef. The first episode she saw a big metal refrigerator and said “I haven’t seen that much stainless steel since I had a PaPsmear”.

I think they try to reinforce things like this in America. Look at childbirth- how often do they portray a woman upright (like in a crouch)?

I don’t think I’ve ever seen that, not even with the historical or semi-historical movies or TV shows. She’s pretty much always on her back & screaming like she’s being cut in half with a chainsaw (stole that from someone).

It certainly seems to make more sense for her to be upright to facilitate things.

Yeah, you are right Alex and what gets my goat is that research shows this crouch position is actually better for women, easier, even less painful. Yet, why is this not shown? Is it about control? encouraging strange ideas about women? I don’t get it.

Hi App Queen. I placed a comment this morning but it hasn’t come up yet. I did another two a few minutes ago. My comments are about why its 25 and that the age will soon be 30 with 6 yearly intervals between tests. This is probably not what they want going up. They seem to want the age reduced to 16. I will be surprised if any get passed.

Hi Kieigh. Its a horrible caption. How disgusting. I’m afraid hatred of women will be with us until forever.

Hi Ap Queen. First, i’m glad you came back. When I was first struck by the fact the NHS had been forcing testing on me I went looking for answers on the net. Your comments and those of the other women who post here were like a lifeline to me at the time. They kept me going until I stumbled on this site and made it my ‘spiritual home.’ I always wondered why you stopped posting and just thought you moved on to other things. Since you left I read everything I could on the subject and became knowledgable and strong with all the arguments. I have bad days tho’ and rely on the support of the women here.
In my ‘real’ life i’m very eloquent and believable and people rarely challenge me and I have at least convinced my friends to look at the arguments. One of my friends has stopped having the tests but doesn’t want to post here.
One of the things I love to do is write romance stories. I belong to a local writers club and from time to time I put books on the internet I have written and also those my friends have produced. Once I came here having read the accounts of womens experiences I just knew we could have an impact once they were in book form.
The first one was a prototype as this was the first time I had put something together like that. I now see some short comings. Despite this it has been downloaded hundreds of times from the free sites and during the free Kindle promotional period. Its a great success. I am deffinately going to do another one and am already working on it. Like the other it will be a collaboration as I simply couldn’t do it on my own, I aim to have it done for 2018 when it will be 30 yrs since the programme began so we have plenty of time. Nearer to the time I was hoping Sue would set up another area on the site for the work but there’s no rush just yet. You can upload anything you want for it. Its up to you what you write. If you want to start on it go right ahead. If you want the project to start and for the others to begin work then I’m sure Sue would be happy with that too. The first one was a bit rushed as I pushed people to get it done for women getting kindles for christmas. I know Kat is very interested to get started. I came up with a working title – ‘cervical screening – 30 years of pap r@pe’ but it might be a bit too much. For the front cover I was hoping Sue would provide a pic of a speculum. I would like the image to be of one all dripping with gloop and blood and looking a bit like the ‘alien’ from the film with the same name (purely for horror).
Let me know what you think
Linda x

Yes I’d be glad to get involved ☺ If I’m not on this site (as often as I’d like), then you’ll often find me mouthing off on screening articles in the newspaper forums (predominantly the Daily Mail!). I’d be happy to share my email with you all if that makes it easier to keep in touch?
My email is – apocalypticq@gmail.com

If any of you want to share any research, documents, any info or just to rant, feel free to drop me an email on the above.

I still do all I can for the “cause” so to speak in the form of posting and commenting on newspaper forums but unfortunately had a lot going on towards the tail end of last year, lots of changes afoot in my workplace! But it’s lovely to speak to you all again – I must make more effort to post and thank you for your comments Linda, they’re lovely ☺I’m glad I’ve helped, as some of everyone’s posts I’ve come across previously such as Elizabeth’s and Ada have helped me ☺

I am so relieved and delighted to find this blog! I recently moved halfway across the country, and as a moderately healthy, married and childless woman in her early thirties, going to the doctor is the last thing I want to do for something as basic as a birth control pill. I don’t WANT to schedule an exam or submit to the discomfort and invasion of a pap smear, and I don’t believe that my symptoms (ie, being perfectly healthy except for a strong desire to maintain the level of peace and quiet in my home by not bringing children into it) warrant such a painful and time-consuming interruption to my life. I’ve ordered an 8-month supply of pills from Medsmex for around $100 including shipping, after reviewing several of the options presented here (and after a frustrating time trying other sources, such as Planned Parenthood– only available in certain states and with a video conference, umm no– and Project Ruby– they still want to contact “my” doctor? I DON’T HAVE/NEED ONE.). I know I’m several years late to the party here, but I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate this information. Fight the good fight, sisters!

Hi Tessa
Welcome to the forum
My husband and I also decided not to have children, I realized very early on that the Pill was out for me, I didn’t want a fight every time I needed a repeat. I knew I couldn’t rely on the medical profession.
I used the Billings Method, but it’s great that women can finally get their pills over the internet, the Pill should have been taken off script many years ago now.

There’s no doubt in my mind the Pill is still on script so doctors don’t lose market share and profits and they want to maintain the same level of control over women. The Pill consult has always been used to take advantage of women, mislead the woman into believing the Pill requires a pap test and/or pelvic and breast exam. None of these things are clinical requirements for the Pill, your medical history, and a blood pressure test, the only requirements.
It’s disgraceful that women still have to see a doctor to get the Pill, unless they choose to buy it over the internet. I was delighted to see California and Oregon make the Pill available OTC. In Europe, many countries have easy access to the Pill.
They wonder why so many pregnancies are unplanned but still put barriers in front of the Pill. The AMA here is obviously dead against the Pill coming off script, they justify their position by saying women won’t get preventative care like pap tests and breast exams, they’re rarely challenged though, pap tests have nothing to do with the Pill and breast exams have not been recommended in many years.
I never hear them say Viagra should not be available over the net because men won’t get preventative checks like testicular exams (not recommended either) or colonoscopies – the old double standard is still firmly in place. Doubt that will change…self-interest is, IMO, their highest priority.

It’s not just self-interest with the AMA, there seems to be outdated thinking at the top, some might say sexist etc. IMO, women are viewed differently to men. I can’t understand why there isn’t more pressure on them to change, why female or younger doctors don’t start stirring the pot.
I know $$$ is important but surely some doctors find it unacceptable that the Pill consult is still used to pressure and mislead women into tests and exams that are completely unnecessary and expose the woman to risk…and may put her off asking for the Pill in the first place.
It’s 2016 and our doctors still believe women should see a doctor every 6 months or a year to get repeats. The govt now allow women to access an emergency supply directly from the pharmacist, but they need to do more, much more. (the AMA were dead against that change too)
The AMA refuses to work with pharmacists and midwives if it means losing power or $$$, they fight any reform they view as bad for THEM, whatever happened to medical ethics and putting patients first? I think the medical lobby is incredibly powerful and influential in this country and rarely challenged, that’s bad for medicine and especially, for women.

Anyone has any idea where to get birth control pills when you’re from Europe (but from a country such as Germany or the Czech Republic, where you basically have no chance of getting the pills without these humiliating and often painful exams)? Most of the online pharmacies linked here don’t work anymore.

The only idea I currently have is to look for various “black markets” where women sell their leftover birth control pills. I also know of one service in my country that offers to provide women with e-receipts (and doesn’t contact your doctor), but because it’s just one site which has a “monopoly”, I’m afraid it’s going to get shut down by the government and there would simply be no alternatives left for us. And what then?

I want to be in control of my own body and make my own informed choices, thank you very much. I hate that even in the US (with their strict rules in this regard), think are at least slightly changing and moving forward, but almost NOTHING is happening here. We’re still blackmailed and bullied by our doctors. So frustrating.

I know this is an older post, but Spain, Italy, Portugal, Russia & probably a few others are OTC.

Supposedly, at least in Norway, the prescription that someone “needs” isn’t linked to coercive entry.

Another thing, at least in the Czech Republic, things can likely be paid a little extra for. What’s he/she going to have problems over? Not being impositional with those dynamics?

Also, and it would be there anyway, there’s the potential for: “Oh, now I can hire a prostitute with this much instead of this one walking out on me.” As an argument, it might work (not least of all because it probably kind-of-sort-of has a lesbian connection as far as associations go).

Thanks for replying to this old reply, so I noticed this post and can give current information on the situation in Germany: Recently, a law on the so-called “Telemedizin” was changed and allows for doctors to prescribe certain medications online without having established a doctor-patient-relationship in person. Birth control belongs to those medications. For a consultation fee and the price of the product, you can order the pill, you just have to answer the usual questions about general health and blood clots, and supply a somewhat current blood pressure reading. There are a lot of websites doing this since it became legal, fernarzt.com, doktoronline.com/de and many others. “Holding birth control hostage” by requiring paps and pelvic exams is very bad medicine, but I’ve heard from several women doctors in Germany still do that. I’ve never taken hormonal birth control, but I’ve ordered antibiotics via one of those providers I named, and it went very smoothly.

Also, I find it absolutely terrifying that we’re not giving informed consent to these exams. Doctors are examining you, putting strange instruments into your body, taking their samples, but unless you specifically ask what’s going on at this step, you have no idea what they’re actually doing down there. They’re just doing… something. And sometimes it’s extremely painful.

Why isn’t the whole process explained to us beforehand, ideally in writing?

It’s totally creepy that young, sometimes underage girls are going through this without any idea of what is actually happening. At least that’s what happened to me since I was 16 and then every year. I just went there to get my BC pills and submitted to the exam, where I had no idea what they were doing with me and why.
And I assume a lot of even older women have no idea about this.

Interesting piece of writing, only thing I disagree with, cervical cancer was never the No 1 killer of women. (Also the author seems to be unaware of the HPV test and that most women are HPV- and not at risk of cc)
The article also includes US virtual doctor sites that prescribe the Pill – Lemonaid, Nurx, Virtuwell and Pandia Health. This woman sacked her doctor after she refused to sign off on a repeat for the Pill until she had a Pap test and pelvic exam – coercion! (and serious over-screening, the doctor demanded annual screening)
Women need to do more of that, walk away, don’t give in to coercion.
The Pill should have been off script a long time ago – we still have high rates of unplanned pregnancies in Australia, the States and in some other developed countries..and what do they have in common, unnecessary barriers around the Pill.
It’s way beyond unethical to stand in the way of reliable contraception – it means women may face FAR greater health and life consequences. Demanding a screening test before we could have the Pill was another example of the misuse of power and the unhealthy attitudes of the medical boys’ club.https://theestablishment.co/bargaining-with-my-birth-control-2a2de4e49172/

About 25 years ago I was denied a pill refill because I refused a pap. The provider was a female nurse practitioner, so unfortunately the women adopted the same patriarchal attitudes as the men. I believe this still goes on today, and it makes me livid. Can you imagine men being treated this way? It would never happen. Everything is done for their convenience and comfort, including being able to get erection meds online. And some of them are probably old geezers who could have a heart attack if they attempted sex!

I’m pleased to report that things seem to have changed, where I live in Canada, at least (Alberta). I no longer am forced to submit to a pap test in order to receive my birth control prescription. I am not sure why it changed, but I’m so glad. Keep up the good fight, ladies!

Now if we could get a screening test that’s not invasive to replace it…because they drummed it into my head for so many years, I still would like an assurance that things are fine in that department.

There is and add on Facebook for woman to order pills wo a script. I have brought this up before but you should have seen all the push back. I lived 34 years wo paps so I guess I’m not scared of not having them like others who have been getting them sence puberty. I’m so over this obsession called “woman’s health.”

Not to blame the intended targets, but men tend to be more aggressive. By “aggressive,” I mean “destructive.” Women are overly social in some cases (ex: not wanting to hurt anyone, just wanting whatever problems to stop).

Men, frequently, enjoy defeating the other party, because they (and, yes, someone can always argue on the behalf of the instigator/predator- “the intended prey caused the problem by not being helpful to the aggressor, who wanted to prey on them”) started it. Actually, sometimes it’s hard to keep on-task & not make that the whole response!

What I would suggest is to either look at things as you correcting them & helping them to no make a mistake at your expense or to try to think a bit like a guy (basically, to emotionally shit-can them & make it a general mode for everybody). Probably the first one is better, but some degree of ignoring their drives & concerns is going to be necessar

Women enforce perceived norms often far harsher than men. If you look at female genital mutilation – it’s a misogynistic practice, born from the desire to control women and deny them pleasure. But in most cases, who does the actual mutilation? A woman, while the relatives hold the victim down. “Mommy wars” are infamous, women shaming women for their parenting choices. Women “slut shame” worse, in my opinion, than men. This phenomenon probably extends to health care. In some cases, I can well believe there’s a vindictive side to it: “If I had to endure it, she has, too.”

I guess a reply to that vindictive stuff is the fact that she’s reacting to it- if she’s doing something to compensate for it, then it must have been a problem. If she’s trying to inflict that problem, then she’s an actual enemy.

P.S.- Do things like this never come up in women’s self defense courses or health class? I know that unexpected tactics, along with subtle approaches, are discussed pretty frequently & they went out of their way in school to get across that “no” means “no.”

Come to think of it, they made a big point about someone’s inclinations (lien if they were gay) were okay- do they not mention someone’s disinclinations the same way?

Certainly there’s competitiveness among women but I believe that’s only a symptom of a larger problem. The real issue is that there are many, many things in society designed to lower a woman’s self-esteem and turn us against each other. If we were ever a confident, cohesive unit, we would be too strong, have too much power and effect too much change and people are generally terrified of change. But this subject could be a forum all its own. On the matter of barriers around birth control, I’m heartened to see there is some progress in making it more accessible, albeit with still a ways to go.

Alex oddly enough in health/self defense classes it’s typically male on female violence that is the focus. We are taught to be suspicious of men and trust women- female on female violence is rarely discussed. I don’t know if its because men are considered to be generally stronger/more violent? Although women may be less prone to violence they can absolutely be enemies and it’s well known that psychological/emotional attacks can be equally or more damaging then physical ones. I agree that manipulation is still manipulation regardless of who does it and this should be discussed more instead of only focusing on physical attacks. -Emily