Steven Markley continues work with Third Eye Games and others. He thinks a lot about tabletop RPGs, card games, and online / video games. Here is a reprint from our 2006 interview:

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Friday, August 04, 2006

Interview: Steven Markley: The Bulldog of Good Game Design

Steven Markley has been building and playing games of all sorts since,
what, the late-1980s? Having written work for the big games, he has
also designed many of his own. He's a quiet master of alternative
worlds and generative, collaborative gaming systems -- if you pay
attention to gaming, you have seen his work online. He joins us here
for an interview.

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1. What is the most exciting project you're working on these days?

I
don't have as much time to devote myself to writing and the like as I
used to. My own RPG projects are long dead, washed away by Katrina, so I
devote what free time I have to writing stuff for White Wolf's World of Darkness games (both the original WoD and new WoD). I don't mind this; WW makes great games, and they're worth my love and time.

Specifically, I'm splitting myself between two gaming projects now. One explores fu dogs, fu lions and ki-rin in a Werewolf:
the Apocalypse context, an old WoD game line that has been discontinued
but that I continue to love and support. Another thing I'm working on
is a new game line for the new WoD called Nephilim: the Legacy.

2. What's "gaming" all about, and why should librarians care?

Gaming
is a fancy term for play-pretend. Really, that's all it is. Think of it
as a play, but the playwrite (called the game master, Dungeon Master,
or Storyteller) lays down the foundation of a play, but she lets the
players write their character's personalities, lines and actions. The
dice, rules and stuff come in to add definition to the characters,
decribe capabilities and resolve potential conflicts. Beyond the game
itself, it's a great social activity.

See, most of us sit and
wait for our stories to be hand-fed to us, occasionally flexing our
imaginations within the bounds of what's been given to us, but otherwise
not bothering to think beyond that. But RPGs force us to interact with
the story and contribute to its telling; there's a certain magic that
results from the ideas of four or five people bouncing around a table or
living room or wherever. There's no telling where a story may go, and
so will always go in directions the game master doesn't expect due to
player input. And that's the beauty of it.

3. Lately we've been talking about "Finite and Infinite Games" in the context of role-playing games. Are RPGs "infinite" by nature?

Stories
told through RPGs (called campaigns or chronicles) can be infinite, but
aren't necessarily by definition. In fact, they usually aren't. Stories
have a beginning and ending, and this is true of RPG chronicles as
well. A game master may decide that the campaign will revolve around
conflict with a certain foe, and will climax when that conflict resolves
in some fashion or another (a peace is brokered, the enemy is defeated,
the players' characters fail, etc.); the end of the campaign is the
resolution of the climax, character subplots, loose ends. This isn't a
bad thing. Campaigns are stories, after all, and the most successful
ones still follow that time-honored format.

Still, RPGs can be
infinite, if the game master and players want it to be. RPGs allow for
that sort of thing. A campaign can end, and another can begin with the
same characters or in the same setting with fresh characters, letting
the story continue while giving a sense of accomplishment to the
players. Or a campaign can be run on and on, never reaching any
conclusion but simply continuing until the players move away or burn
out... and maybe never really stop. Most RPGs aren't run this way, but
the thing is that they can support that style of play.

4. When I last checked, gaming was mainly the domain of boys. Is this still the case? Where are the girls?

Usually staying the hell away from us.

Seriously,
gamers have a bad image in general, and with the ladies especially.
While some of this is mainstream snobbery toward the fringe, I honestly
think a lot of it is gamers' fault. For whatever reason, gamers tend to
be poorly socialized males that generally view women as objects of
desire or unknowable x-factors, not real people. I think that's true of
many men, but gamers end to be especially guilty of it. These guys end
up being able to relate to fantasy women better than real ones. One must
look at archetypal female portrayals in games to see why: cover models
in chain mail bikinis, helpless damsels waiting to be rescued, sultry
leather-clad vamps, skyclad hippy-esque elves. The objectification of
females is pretty overt in RPGs (though less so nowadays), and it makes
sense that not many women try gaming, and those that do often don't
stick with it for long. Even female gamers themselves are objects of
fixation and unwanted attention by their male counterparts.

There
hasn't been a concerted effort to bring women into gaming until
relatively recently -- with the advent of White Wolf Publishing. White
Wolf helped broaden the appeal of gaming, though, drawing more female
fans into the hobby. They did this in several ways. One is language they
use: they often use "she" as a gender neutral pronoun, instead of
always defaulting to "he"; this is something I've picked up, and I apply
to my writing as well. (Others, like Wizards of the Coast,
have since picked up on this practice as well.) A small thing, but
don't underestimate the impact a subtle shift like this can have.
Another thing WW did was make female characters strong and viable
personalities, rather than merely sex objects (though there is a subtext
of eroticism in the contemporary vampire myth, which WW plays on).
Finally, the emphasis of WW games was more on the characters themselves
and interpersonal interactions, rather than combat tables and beating
down the opposition -- so the goals became more about issues personal to
the character, and less about concrete goals like leveling up, kill
counts or treasure.

Still, there aren't many female gamers
compared to males, even in WW games. I think this is a sad thing, but
considering all the previous factors (plus others I didn't consider or
I'm unaware of) it's understandable.

5. Manga is pulling many females into the usually-male world of comics. Does this have any affect on gaming?

Not
being a fan of that genre, I can't say much about it. I do notice a lot
of female gamers are also anime fans. It's possible there's some sort
of correlation, there. WW has an anime game called Exalted that's doing quite well, and many fans of the WoD are also Exalted fans, and vice-versa, creating a lot of genre mixing.

6.
I reckon Manga might save comics by bringing a whole new generation of
readers in. Is there anything comparable going on in the world of gaming
to bring in the next generation, or are the Wizards and White Wolves
content to settle for the audiences they've got?

There's
always an effort by any business to expand their customer base, man. You
don't do that, you fail, or at least fail to thrive. Cater to a small
core of purists at your eventual peril. At one time RPG publishers
targeted only select demographics (gamers and hobbyists), but they've
been doing some clever marketing lately. There's been
cross-pollenization between Wizards of the Coast's collectible card
games (like Pokemon and Magic: the Gathering) and their D&D
property; they've also green-lighted two Dungeons & Dragons movies
(though the first was awful), and when they showed the last movie on the
Sci-Fi Channel cable they advertised the game itself during the movie.
Very slick, very smart. WW brought in anime fans with Exalted, has
always and still poaches customers from the goth, punk, iconoclast and
"counterculture" crowds with the WoD properties, and promotes t-shirts,
custom dice, board games and other products based around their games.

7.
Computers and PS2s are up, dice and pencils are down -- is the end near
for tabletop games? And what about "live action" gaming?

According
to some, the gaming industry is having to deal with a shrinking market,
but the reduction isn't that much; other figures say that the number of
gamers is holding steady or even that there are more gamers. I guess
depends on how broadly you apply the definition of gaming or interpret
the numbers. But even there is a shrinking number of gamers, that
doesn't worry me; it's the lack of diversity in the market that is the
cause of concern. And diversity, whether we're talking about a free
market or ecosystem, is essential.

Right now, Wizards of the Coast dominates the market, and with the Open Gaming License other publishers can put out d20-compatible
books as long as they display the OGL logo and abide by a few other
guidelines. Since ecology was already invoked, think of WotC as a whale
shark, the undisputed giant of the waters. White Wolf is a great white
shark, while smaller sharks in the form of Steve Jackson Games and Guardians of Order claim their share of fish too. This ocean is brutal, because some sharks have gone extinct or are floundering: FASA, Palladium Publishing, Last Unicorn,
and many others. And then there are the small sharks and remoras that
feed off the giant whale shark, growing fat off the scraps the monster
leaves behind: Green Ronin, Eternal Knot, Malhavoc,
etc. Hell, even White Wolf got in on the OGL action and made some
excellent d20 products. So in a sense, the WotC juggernaut and its OGL
setup has been great for a lot of gaming companies.

However, what
this also does is reduce the number of systems available. The d20
whores thrive, while other systems fail. If you'll forgive another
analogy, think of Wal-Mart running small businesses out of small towns.
I'm not saying d20 sucks; it's a fairly good system, and it's nice that
pretty much everyone knows it. If you're hankering for a game, just
grab anything d20 off the shelves and you're in business with a solid
majority of your gamers. But it's not the best system out there, and
even if it was a lot of great ideas and innovative mechanics are being
lost to bankruptcy as d20 pushes them out. We need options, choices,
alternatives. Gamers rarely form around new games, so as a game
publisher you're drawing from a pool of existing gamers -- and with only
so much time to game and money to spend, many just buy what they're
familiar with rather than blow $30+ on something they've never heard of.

There are good and bad sides to monopolies, but something inside me jerks uncomfortably when I see one start to form.

Anyway,
to address your question in short: pen and paper gaming as a whole is
doing fine, as far as I know, and I don't see consoles and other gaming
mediums being direct competitors, as they fill different gaming needs --
it's like saying basketball threatens football. However, there are
fewer gaming systems and companies out there, and from what I can see
that trend shows no signs of reversing or even slowing.

8.
Okay. I'm a librarian, say, and say I want to establish an ongoing
gaming meetup for my patrons. I've ordered all the basic game books
(GURPs sets, World of Darkness sets, D&D sets, some others), I'm
keeping the library's community room open till midnight on Saturdays,
and I've even made arrangements to have coffee, cokes, and popcorn!
What's next? And how do I keep the gamers happy so that this keeps on
going for months and years?

Well, you've got a good start
with just that. I'd get the word out there, to let people know that the
option is available to them. Do the security setup on the game books.
Definitely go for the three Dungeons & Dragons core rulebooks
(Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual), 3.5
Edition: they're popular with gamers, are well-known, and have brand
recognition. If you have the budget for it, I'd invest in the "core"
books for a variety of other systems; the new World of Darkness and associated game cores are a good bet, as well as 2nd Ed Exalted, GURPS
plus a couple of its setting books, and whatever else you think will
tickle gamers' fancy. You might even ask patrons what they want and let
them vote. Read up on the books and play or run something. After that,
the game groups will gel or fall apart based on the participants; you
can create an environment for them, but it's the people that make the
games. So try to find good ones. (Don't bother with supplying dice,
they'll disappear on you.)

And here's a sneaky thing you can do
to your players: inspire them to read non-gaming books you have in the
library. For example, say you're running a semi-realistic D&D game
set in fantasy Renaissance France. Give bonus experience points to
players with well-rounded character backgrounds, or that can answer
certain questions about that time period, or brings you useful
information about the setting. And then apply the info in the game in
neat ways. They get an under-the-table education, and you [get] better
players.

But you gotta have Mountain Dew. There's no real way you can game without it.

9.
What are some of the best gaming books that you know librarians don't
have on the shelves? Assume we've got the biggies -- what are we
missing?

Well, I've never seen gaming books in any
libraries. But the gaming books that are my favorites, the nearest and
dearest to my heart, aren't necessarily what's the most popular or most
available; it can be a bitch running down out-of-print books, believe
you me. In the interests of helping you invest your money wisely and
appealing to the most gamers, just go with what I recommended
immediately above. For D&D, I've heard the Eberron setting is pretty good, and for the new WoD Vampire: the Requiem is the most popular game.

10. What sort of themes and settings are your own games concerned with?

I've
pretty much focused on World of Darkness games since my gaming
collection was unexpectedly downsized, and thus modern horror is my
forte. There are a lot of variations on that theme, as each WoD game
focuses on a different niche. Vampire: the Masquerade's theme is Gothic
Punk, deals with the loss of Humanity to the Beast within and the
uncaring mechanizations of the Jyhad (the eternal struggles the eldest
vampires wage against one another, using other Kindred as their pawns).
Werewolf: the Apocalypse's theme is Savage Horror, as animistic
werewolves strive to save the worlds of flesh and spirit from
encroaching doom while struggling with their Rage and personal flaws.
Demon: the Fallen is Dark Revelation, in which fallen angels in the
bodies of humans reap Faith from mortals while trying to find meaning in
a ruined Creation, and struggle with issues of God, Lucifer and
rebellion. Different games offer unique takes on the darkness.

11. What has been your biggest source of inspiration as a game designer?

Wow,
big question. I'd have to say I've always been trying to recapture the
magic I felt when new games were revealed to me, that fascination with
their settings and elements. I never could quite do it, though; no
matter how meticulous I was with the game's setting and premise, or how
painstakingly I designed the system, it always rang a bit hollow to me
-- there was no mystery to it, as I was the man behind the scenes, the
guy in the black suit making the puppets dance. Endless rewrites and
revisions to revitalize my creations did no good. It took me the
longest time to realize that. It's just as well all that baggage was washed away.

I
still feel the magic for the two World of Darkness, though... with more
love for the old than the new. I enjoy writing house material for those
games. I write for something bigger, with broad appeal and that still
holds magic for me. It's not my own exclusive creation anymore, but I'm
participating in my own way, and some people actually like what I do. I
get no money or official recognition from White Wolf, but who cares?
I'm not sure I could write what I want to if I actually worked for them.