I am a Christian, I also believe in evolution to an extent, with one problem. If each feature of nature is created out of genetic defects that give an advantage spaced across billions of years, how did the eye form? Merely one mutation would give no advantage. More over, the eye doesn't function without nearly all of the extremely complicated pieces intact. So why would a species carry a genetic trait that gave no advantage, and why would this trait be more prominent? It is hard to swallow that something that did not give an advantage would be preferred for billions of years through breeding until all the eye was able to be formed through just the right combination of genetic defects. Also, the jump between sea creatures that were only able to tell light and dark to the eye that can find edges, contrast, color, movement, and works dependently with parts of the brain is a little hard to explain without accepting that God handles these things as he sees fit.

That is a valid, rational argument, and I commend you for thinking it out logically.

My guess is this. A mutated creature will not necessarily die unless its mutation severely impairs its ability to survive (or it gets unlucky and a shark chomps it up =D). As long as mutations are positive or not too harmful, theoretically over billions of years we could advance a lot.

Following this line of thinking, perhaps something resembling an eye formed in a creature, and slowly became functional over thousands of generations.

It certainly does present an interesting question which I can't say I have the answer to.

Perhaps my biggest problem with the theory of evolution is: how does living matter just somehow form from non-living matter? Cells and organ systems are quite complex things. How did these form in the first place if there wasn't an intelligent being to create them?

Now, in relation to the topic of discussion, I strongly believe that God doesn't change to conform to mans imperfect ways. I believe God is unchanging. He knows all, he is perfect, but he doesn't change to conform himself to others flaws.

Here's an interesting question.. What if God created evolution?And what type of higher power says, "Worship me, have no gods before me, praise me and do as I say or I'll fry you up like tri tip on the grill."? FFS I don't even like red meat.

But to answer the OP's question, Nature has nothing to do with God. God is only an anthropomorphism of the Sun.

I only see religion as a way of controlling the society without the expensive nature of chains.

"That's it if I am acting like child, then that means you're a pedophile. And I'll be damned if I'm going to stand here and be lectured to by a pervert!"

Who is making things up? The idea behind my post is that because of the complexity of things, and because with all our science and math, we can still not explain everything, that to say everything is completely random is not possible. The odds of the first life form being created by chance is almost not calculable. Then to say everything else that developed also coincidentally fell on the same linear plane of chance, one step after the other? If you believe that, my hat is off to you. You have more faith than me. I just accept that God handles all these things.

-- Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:25 am --

sanddbox,

Very well put. A mutation would not have to improve the creature, just not hinder it. I had not thought of that. Which would cause a branching of a species with different characteristics.

faazshift wrote:Perhaps my biggest problem with the theory of evolution is: how does living matter just somehow form from non-living matter? Cells and organ systems are quite complex things. How did these form in the first place if there wasn't an intelligent being to create them?

I'll preface by assuming that you are an educated person with at least a basic knowledge of chemistry and biology.

Assuming these to be true, we establish that you can create one substance out of the specific combination of others. Using nothing but varied amounts of basic Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen, we were able to create a solid, a liquid, and a gas. Let's take this one step further.

According to Wikipedia's page on Checmical makeup of the human body, the most abundant element in the human body is Oxygen, comprising 65% of our mass and 24% of our atoms. Looking down the list, we see Carbon (18% of mass, 12% of atoms) and Hydrogen (10% of mass, 63% of atoms) following shortly after. What does this tell us? Based upon the sugar, water, and Carbon Dioxide example, we should be able to create a somewhat large amount of chemicals from these three elements alone. This is called a Carbohydrate (Carbon+Hydrogen+Oxygen) and is indeed one of the major building blocks of organic life, called a Biomolecule, of which there are 4 main types (the other three being proteins, nucleic acids, and lipids).

If we look towards the bottom of the article, we see a section titled "Molecules in one cell" Not surprisingly, the most abundant by far is water, which we know can be made with two Hydrogen atoms and one Oxygen. We also see lipids, proteins, and DNA (nucleic acid) on the list, which we have determined can be built by the combining of simple atoms. These are called the "building blocks of life" for a reason.

Here's where I run out of steam. I am not a biochemist; I simply remember the basics from High School and have been able to think about them for a while. As such, I cannot tell you how the compounds interact, or why. For that you would need to ask a biology professor, who I am sure would be glad to explain it.

What I can tell you, however, is that I am almost certain it has nothing to do with God's will.

I see that living matter is made out of basic elements. I also know that living matter is quite complex. I just don't see how matter just came together and started working how it was supposed to without some sort of intervention (a being more intelligent than ourselves).

faazshift wrote:I see that living matter is made out of basic elements. I also know that living matter is quite complex. I just don't see how matter just came together and started working how it was supposed to without some sort of intervention (a being more intelligent than ourselves).

Yea, I am on the same page with this. I don't know either, but let me ask you this: If you did know, meaning someone took the time to not only explain it but to somehow demonstrate it, would you still think the same way about it?

Goatboy wrote:Yea, I am on the same page with this. I don't know either, but let me ask you this: If you did know, meaning someone took the time to not only explain it but to somehow demonstrate it, would you still think the same way about it?

If I had some sort of proof, I would be much more inclined toward evolution over intelligent design. But as all I have seen are theories, I choose to believe intelligent design (as to me it seems to make more sense).

It's like if you had only ever experienced darkness and there was no such thing as light, would you wish for light or even have an idea of light?

-- Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:53 am --

sanddbox wrote:I think religious philosophy is for assholes.

Such an intelligent statement....

-- Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:01 am --

Vlox wrote:as the nature of man changes so does the nature of god to reflect mans decision

what do you think of this statement?

This quote says a lot (the first line quoted).

Important to remember: man's view of how God is and how God really is isn't always matching.

Biblically, God has not changed. He even says He doesn't change (let me know if you want me to look that up). But God's people morphed their ideas of who God is all the time. Example: when Jesus came to Earth to set things right again, the Jewish religion was really messed up with the Pharisees and all their twisted practices. It was God basically saying, "Hey, you don't control who I am. Let me show you, once again, who I truly am."