I am wondering if you will please explain which parts of your belief system (Christianity?) is sensible and complete account of reality?

added:And what did you compare it to?

« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 09:55:23 AM by monkeymind »

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Mostly by not holding any of my unpleasantness against me. That is kind of a big deal, and relieves a lot of self-inflicted hopeless forever-guilt.

All of your "slef-inflicted hopeless forever-guilt" would not be possible WITHOUT your belief in god. Drop your god delusion, and all that brainwashed-in guilt goes away. Then, all that is required is for you is to hold yourself accountable for all your unpleasantness. Scary, I know, but it is a far more sensible reality.

As an atheist, I can see clearly that each Christian believes for their own reasons. And I find it unfortunate that some of them choose to use their belief to raise themselves to a pretend state of moral superiority.

I do appreciate that many humans find it comforting to have a belief that there is a God out there that cares about them, and that offers them hope for today, and tomorrow. Unfortunately, I fear that this separates many of them from reality to the point that they lose out on the real juice of life on this planet, while their brain is actually alive and active.

Welcome, and hope to see you joining in the discussions and hanging out!

I am wondering if you will please explain which parts of your belief system (Christianity?) is sensible and complete account of reality?

Since I think it's "complete" -- all the parts! I am sure there are topics for each sub-section of my conviction, here, if I have enough energy to find them all.

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added:And what did you compare it to?

The ones with actual doctrines and backstory and their own holy books take a lot more time for comparison. I try, but my laziness means mostly I have only compared it to various kinds of atheism -- and types of wicca -- and all the mythology I learned from playing Age of Mythology (which is of course...authoritative).

All of your "slef-inflicted hopeless forever-guilt" would not be possible WITHOUT your belief in god. Drop your god delusion, and all that brainwashed-in guilt goes away. Then, all that is required is for you is to hold yourself accountable for all your unpleasantness. Scary, I know, but it is a far more sensible reality.

But I find my unpleasantness so very unpleasant, I am sure that I could still muster up some forever-guilt in a Godless world. (Hence -- self-inflicted). It would be of the "Dang, but I can be unpleasant! *sadface*" variety.

As an atheist, I can see clearly that each Christian believes for their own reasons. And I find it unfortunate that some of them choose to use their belief to raise themselves to a pretend state of moral superiority.

Is it unloving if I make it one of my life goals to scratch those people in the eyes until they learn some reading comprehension? A Christian is by definition a person so cartwheelin' awful, God only knows what to do with them.

I do appreciate that many humans find it comforting to have a belief that there is a God out there that cares about them, and that offers them hope for today, and tomorrow. Unfortunately, I fear that this separates many of them from reality to the point that they lose out on the real juice of life on this planet, while their brain is actually alive and active.

It's frustrating though, isn't it, when you meet someone who believes a thing because it's really very comforting -- instead of being comforted because they really very believe it? About being separated from the real juice of life on this planet, it's funny you should mention that. I was listening to the "Nicholas Nickleby" audiobook on the way to work today, and there was a story in it about five sisters who spent a good deal of time embroidering in a sunny meadow, and then a Friar came along and say "HELLO, wouldn't you like to leave behind this tomfoolery and go sit in a humble dungeon contemplating eternity?" and they responded with a hearty "Shut up man, we're embroidering here." Later, they got old and started dying and the Friar was all, "Haha, how about now?" and they were like, "Shut up man. Stained-glass window time, yeah-yuh! Pretty colors!"

In a separate post, I'd enjoy hearing why you find your model of existence to be sensible. Cheers!

Thanks =) I hope to have time to create one sometime, but Existence and Sensibility are both meaty topics, so expect a short wait while the turkey of my explained worldview bakes to a perfect golden crisp in the Showtime Rotisserie of my mind, having been set and forgotten, as Ron Popeil looks on smiling at the ease and efficiency of his greatest invention...

added:Would a post like that belong in this here forum, or someplace else?

I am wondering if you will please explain which parts of your belief system (Christianity?) is sensible and complete account of reality?

Since I think it's "complete" -- all the parts! I am sure there are topics for each sub-section of my conviction, here, if I have enough energy to find them all.

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added:And what did you compare it to?

The ones with actual doctrines and backstory and their own holy books take a lot more time for comparison. I try, but my laziness means mostly I have only compared it to various kinds of atheism -- and types of wicca -- and all the mythology I learned from playing Age of Mythology (which is of course...authoritative).

So talking snakes and donkeys, cud-chewing rabbits, sun stopping in it;s tracks and going backwards....all those are sensible explanation of reality for you?

You compared the bible mythology to types of atheism and a game? What types of atheism? I don't understand what that is? REMOVED line (leading the witness so to speak).

« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 10:46:00 AM by monkeymind »

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for taking the time to address these issues.

Maybe you could start another thread (like: How I know god is real, or something), since you are in the testimonials section, and we are bound to have many questions for you, like: How would you go about proving that this god of yours exists?

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You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe.-- Carl Sagan

All of your "slef-inflicted hopeless forever-guilt" would not be possible WITHOUT your belief in god. Drop your god delusion, and all that brainwashed-in guilt goes away. Then, all that is required is for you is to hold yourself accountable for all your unpleasantness. Scary, I know, but it is a far more sensible reality.

But I find my unpleasantness so very unpleasant, I am sure that I could still muster up some forever-guilt in a Godless world. (Hence -- self-inflicted). It would be of the "Dang, but I can be unpleasant! *sadface*" variety.

So rather than quit being unpleasant, or at least holding yourself accountable for it, you'll just rather have heysoos wash all your guilt away?

Try to avoid getting overwhelmed by participating in too many threads all at once.

Images of ducks on a June bug, dog pile on a rabbit and a monkey with a frog, come to mind.

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

So talking snakes and donkeys, cud-chewing rabbits, sun stopping in it;s tracks and going backwards....all those are sensible explanation of reality for you?

There is a lot in that sentence! Demonic shapeshifting, divine control of animals, poor zoology, and divine control of planets, stars and time itself. I don't know much about the rabbity thing, except some random stuff I read about maybe rabbits eating poop confused the translators. ( Can I suggest that the next book of skepticism toward the Bible be called, then, "Rabbits Eat Poop"? )

But sidestepping the rabbit poop translation in favor of talking donkeys like Eddie Murphy in Shrek. Actually, that is a useful comparison. Here is why I think it's pretty sensible: because the reality of the story about the one time in world history when a donkey talked...is not explaining a reality that's like Shrek. In other words we don't have that movie trailer guy rasping, "In a world....where donkeys....SPEAK." It's more like we have that movie trailer guy rasping, "In a world.....where there is a God...powerful enough...but goofy enough...to make a donkey...SPEAK...once." And I don't find that statement untenable.

So rather than quit being unpleasant, or at least holding yourself accountable for it, you'll just rather have heysoos wash all your guilt away?

And they say atheists are without morals.

Who says atheists are without morals? Rubbish. But it's just like you say, I only have the three options:

1) Quit being unpleasant. (hahahaha, good luck with that, deBew, and let us know when you've ascended to saintliness...will a be a "practice this long list of rules so you can eventually be superior" thing, or will a be a "look within your heart and find out that you are already Truly Perfect so don't worry about it" sort of a thing? )2) Failing that, at least hold myself accountable for it ( "Dang, but I can be unpleasant! *sadface*" ... you probably have a more useful definition of accountability, though )3) have heysoos wash all my guilt away (which...if that offer is on the table...sounds pretty practical to me )

I'm intrigued - how would your life be different if your god HAD held your unpleasantness against you? How do you know that he doesn't?

The main difference is that I would probably get what I deserve someday, and having a pretty realistic view of all my unpleasantness...yipes. O_O Plus I wouldn't be able to be very happily chatting with Him or reading His letters, in the meantime.

I only know He doesn't because He promised He wouldn't, in that there Bible.

Because I appreciate a sensible, complete account of reality. Heaven is pretty nice too.

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What is it that makes your belief so strong?

Probably that sensibility and completeness thing, again.

Questions for you: where were you born and raised?

Were your parents christians?

Right now, I'm taking a guess you were born in the USA or another western country. In which case, you would have grown up in a culture that was predominantly christian. Because of this, I'm guessing your parents were also christians. Am I right so far? If yes, then doesn't it strikes you that the main reason why you are a christian is because it's what you grew up with? Whenever by culture, by parents, or both.

Have you ever stopped to think that if you were born in a different time and place, you would not have been a christian? You would have a different religion if you were born in China in 12BC, or in South America in 600AD. Even today, you would have a different religion if you were born in India, or in Saudi Arabia or another place where christianity isn't the dominate religion. Does it ever moves you that in order to be a christian, you have to be born at just the right place at the right time?

I don't know much about the rabbity thing, except some random stuff I read about maybe rabbits eating poop confused the translators. ( Can I suggest that the next book of skepticism toward the Bible be called, then, "Rabbits Eat Poop"? )

But sidestepping the rabbit poop translation in favor of talking donkeys like Eddie Murphy in Shrek. Actually, that is a useful comparison. Here is why I think it's pretty sensible: because the reality of the story about the one time in world history when a donkey talked...is not explaining a reality that's like Shrek. In other words we don't have that movie trailer guy rasping, "In a world....where donkeys....SPEAK." It's more like we have that movie trailer guy rasping, "In a world.....where there is a God...powerful enough...but goofy enough...to make a donkey...SPEAK...once." And I don't find that statement untenable.

Well, I hardly think there ever was a talking donkey (with the exception of Shrek and Mr. Ed-also cartoon character) but how about comparing Balaam's donkey to all other donkeys that we know of...

You compared the bible mythology to types of atheism and a game? What types of atheism? I don't understand what that is?

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And wicca, because I used to talk to some interesting goat-farmers frequently. =) You mean you don't understand what I mean by there being types of atheism?

Yes, that is why I asked. Now I also don't know what you mean by comparing Christianity to Wicca because of goat farmers?

Fixed broken quote edit typos

« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 12:48:32 PM by monkeymind »

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Try to avoid getting overwhelmed by participating in too many threads all at once.

Or because I was replying in lots of other threads too?

Yes, one can easily get over extended...

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Questions for you: where were you born and raised? Were your parents christians?

Right now, I'm taking a guess you were born in the USA or another western country. In which case, you would have grown up in a culture that was predominantly christian. Because of this, I'm guessing your parents were also christians. Am I right so far? If yes, then doesn't it strikes you that the main reason why you are a christian is because it's what you grew up with? Whenever by culture, by parents, or both.

Have you ever stopped to think that if you were born in a different time and place, you would not have been a christian? You would have a different religion if you were born in China in 12BC, or in South America in 600AD. Even today, you would have a different religion if you were born in India, or in Saudi Arabia or another place where christianity isn't the dominate religion. Does it ever moves you that in order to be a christian, you have to be born at just the right place at the right time?

Yeah, I was born & raised Christian in the USA. =) Very grateful of it too, since I have had a lot more readily accessible information about Christianity than I would have in most times or places! I probably would have a different religion if I were born in South America in 600AD. Do you think you would believe the exact same things if you were born there either? If you do, then you've paid a very friendly and unverifiable compliment to the objectivity of your own mind and I hope that as a gentleman you will pay the same compliment to mine!

(All the questions about "what if I'd just never heard about it?" will blindside me sometimes and get me all somber, and set me wondering about other people who never heard about it -- naturally. Maybe I will make a topic about that someday, too).

...Still waiting for you to qualify what kinds of atheism you compared your brand of Christianity to.

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Well, I hardly think there ever was a talking donkey (with the exception of Shrek and Mr. Ed-also crtoon character) but how about comparing Balaam's donkey to all other donkeys that we know of...

That's a very good idea and is likely the reason the Bible goes to such lengths to explain all the special circumstances (including omnipotent interference) that lead to a talking donkey. Does this make sense to you? It shows that the extraordinary circumstance really is extraordinary and required a The God to make it happen.

Yes, that is why I asked. Now I also don't know what you mean by comparing Christianity to Wicca because of goat farmers?

I mean I spent a lot of time talking to Wiccan Goat Farmers about Wicca and Christianity.

Also, good blog name. =P

Also, I suppose some types of atheism could include: atheists who still believe in other spirits, atheists who only believe in matter and not in spirit, atheists who still believe there is truth, atheists who do not believe in any absolute truth, atheists who are nicer people than me, atheists who argue against religion, atheists who mostly don't care, atheists who focus on the survival of the species as our greatest goal, atheists who focus on personal development...there are lots of ways to customize even after you've done away with God, and there are lots of worldviews and value systems that you can develop without 'im....so I have had lots to consider.

added:also you can have atheism that tries to address the origin of the universe, atheism that doesn't...I'm out of ideas now

1) Quit being unpleasant. (hahahaha, good luck with that, deBew, and let us know when you've ascended to saintliness...will a be a "practice this long list of rules so you can eventually be superior" thing, or will a be a "look within your heart and find out that you are already Truly Perfect so don't worry about it" sort of a thing? )

I mispoke. I have no idea whether anyone can quit being unpleasant in every and all situations, but it's not out of the realm of possiblity to at least make an effort, is it? Or, in your worldview, is the effort not required?

That's a very good idea and is likely the reason the Bible goes to such lengths to explain all the special circumstances (including omnipotent interference) that lead to a talking donkey. Does this make sense to you? It shows that the extraordinary circumstance really is extraordinary and required a The God to make it happen.

But I'm asking you to compare what the bible claims against your observations about the world you live in.

I don't see how the bible saying it so, is reason enough to believe (bible) God made it so. A book describing a supernatural agency is enough for you to believe donkeys can talk, etc.?

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

I mispoke. I have no idea whether anyone can quit being unpleasant in every and all situations, but it's not out of the realm of possiblity to at least make an effort, is it? Or, in your worldview, is the effort not required?......How about trying to not be unpleasant, and upon discovering that you have been, make amends for it?

The effort is pretty much commanded. It is good and right to try to be better than you are. My best efforts have historically been pretty floundering, though. If I hadn't heard about the unconditional love and forgiveness thing, I would readily hurl myself onto self-discipline and rigorous ethics. I think I am a pretty bad case though, and would end up as just a very nice chap who still shudders to knows what he's capable of. o_O Happily now I get to do the self-discipline and rigorous ethics in celebration of having found a more satisfactory ultimate solution!