That statement made no sense. Then again, this should not be surprising...

...on the other hand, I personally find it surprising that you, as a moderator, choose to extend this pathetic, off-topic excuse of a "debate" rather than prune what is dead for the sake of the topic recovering. For the love of God, if this thread is going nowhere and nobody is willing to attend to it, unsticky it.

EDIT: Not that I think that you're by any means obliged to behave one way or another.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 08:56:06 PM by Animus »

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"And in this lies my honour and my reward, - / That whenever I come to the fountain to drink I find the living water itself thirsty; / And it drinks me while I drink it." - Almustafa

I think one thing that kills people from making progress on IIH, is that they limit themselves to just practicing the exercises from the book and wondering if magic is real. They practice the exercises and then wonder if it's worth their time and they forget about how the powers talked about in this book permeate their entire lives.

That they are actually parcticing magic in a wrong way throughout the course of their days. What I mean by this is, how they react to situations negatively in their lives. At work or school or in relationships with people, the negative side of the elements is at work. That magic is actually taking place when they have too much of one of the four elements on the negative side.

If for example you get bad grades at school and no matter how hard you try, you still do badly, you can trace the root cause to an overabundace of one of the four elements to the negative side. That you can actually magically transform your grades from bad to good, by finding the particular element you can categorize your bad grades to and then, either through your will or through autosuggestion change the characteristic of that element from negative to positive, which will be doing magic to change your grades from bad to good.

If you look at your life, the way you interact, all the bad can be traced back to too much of the negative side of the elements. If you change all the elements inside yourself from bad to good, you automatically change your entire life from bad to good.

This is magic.

People for the most part, limit their ability to making progress on IIH, because they think only in terms of the mental exercises in the book and then forget about how it's already at work, unconsciously it in their lives

But I do not believe that you have to turn everything positive, as long as the elements are in balance then you can bear the fruits of your labour.

There’s always another but:

But personally I do not think Bardon explains this properly or puts enough weight on it. It wasn’t until I did another IIH system, (more GD orientated) that I understood the need and that it was not purely about balance, that it was also about knowing yourself and your outwardly projection.

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We can look but do we see and we can listen but do we hear? So what gets in the way?👂u have to say because I don't do hints👂

By far the most neglected aspects of the IIH are the black and white soul mirrors. Without the transmutation of the personality, no real spiritual authority is built up, which means that the student doesn't improve nearly as much as they could with equilibrium of the elements. Positivity is defined and brought about by equilibrium, because a negative system is necessarily imbalanced. Therefore, the true student of IIH must correct their personality and mundane life and bring themselves into elemental equilibrium in order to progress. As Prophecy states in his wonderful article 130 Principles of Metaphysics:

Quote

25.) Anything which is equilibrated in actualization is at the center of its own causes, and therefore has direct control over consequent effects.(...)10.) In consequence to principle B25, one necessarily becomes more authoritative in all spheres as equilibrium is gradually achieved via attunement to Deity. 11.) Any person with spiritual attunement to Deity can operate magic, but not any person who can operate magic has spiritual attunement.12.) A person who can operate change through Deity affects the world from the core to the periphery.13.) A person who can operate change through magic affects the world from the periphery inwards, but not always to the core. 14.) The subject of principle 12 will not always have magical faculties, but will always be able to work apparently magical and miraculous operations.15.) The subject of principle 13 will often have magical faculties, and will often be able to work apparently magical and miraculous operations.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 02:33:13 PM by Animus »

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"And in this lies my honour and my reward, - / That whenever I come to the fountain to drink I find the living water itself thirsty; / And it drinks me while I drink it." - Almustafa

1. In step 1 phisycal training, we must dry-brushing our bodies and do magnetic eye-bath in the morning. Can I also do them in afternoon / evening ?

2. Eye-bath (step 1), can I use filtered water instead boiled water ? Does it have same effectiveness ?

3. Can I mix IIH with others ? I mean when we finished step I (after get Vacancy of Mind), instead continue to step II, I do learn psi (kinetic) ?

4. I have read Robert Bruce "3 Months Guide to Mastering Astral Projection". If we can do Astral Projection in 3 Months, why in IIH We must learn it in step VIII (I believe beginners like me must take years to go to step VIII IIH) ? Is it so dangerous do Astral Projection earlier ?

1. First, Bardon stresses magnetic bathing / showering of the whole body, not just eye baths. Eye bathing is more of a vision remedy and while it may accelerate development of clairvoyance later on is less integral. Next, feel fre to take an evening magnetic wash / brush if you'd like, but remember not to overstimulate your skin with abrasion or your skin and hair by excessive washing.

Magnetic bathing is useful for clearing off negative energy, especially when combined with a visualization. It's recommended after stressful days or time spent in negative situations or with negative people. However, remember that water's magnetism will also wash away any positive energy which you have accumulated in energy work (which takes a few hours to fully affect your subtle bodies). For this reason, bathe before energy work if possible, and wait a few hours afterwards before bathing. If you must bathe after energy work, use hot water, keep it short, and visualize the energies being retained. At this point in your training, you are not doing energy work without a medium (air, food, drink, etc.) but by Step III when you start with the elements and vital force, this should be remembered.

2. The purer the water the better. If you can get distilled water, that will work. The reason it is boiled is to make it sanitary for your eyes and to temporarily remove the magnetic property of the water to release any impressions that it may have stored. Therefore if you use well-filtered water, it will be physically safe, and the hotter the water has been made previous to the eye bath, the more metaphysically pure it will be.

3. You can, but the IIH is a complete system in and of itself and most purists won't recommend it. Take psi, for instance. You COULD learn psi, or you could look over what you've learned and realize that if you use the visualization of Step II to make a form and then impregnate it with a function as outlined in Step I, you have created a psi construct. If you get to Step V, it's easy to see that telekinesis (in the hermetic paradigm) can be accomplished in a few different ways - the projection of the air element, perhaps, or maybe realizing through the Akasa principle that your consciousness may infiltrate the being of the object and thus influence it. This is analogous to the active psi idea of "kineting with the soul," if a little more segmented. Personally, I think that if you're interested in psi, you should do active psi, and if you want to do the IIH, stick with magic.

4. Earlier / faster does not always mean better. I've got a long explanation for this question.

For projection in general, that's a good book for the prepared individual. I used it when I was starting out (and was not prepared) and got sufficient results to prove that it works. Unfortunately, I've been convinced over the years - partially through my own heart-attack-like experience in which my heart chakra activity failed to produce a projection and put my physical body into a state of shock - that projection isn't as perfectly safe as it's popular to believe that it is nowadays. For one thing, the mental body is more commonly projected, not the astral body, making the "astral" projection most people are familiar with actually mental projection. The astral body of the untrained individual doesn't normally stray more than a few feet from the physical body unless that individual has died or is very near death. The astral body is directly responsible for many physical life processes and therefore if it experiences damage during projection, the individual can come to physical harm. The mental body is safer in this regard, although sustaining damage to the mental body can still cause mental or emotional trauma which can later manifest physically if not corrected.

The reason projection is taught in the IIH at a relatively high Step is because Bardon wishes the student to attain the magical / elemental equilibrium. The equilibrium makes the projector incredibly difficult to harm (or glamor, or coerce, or trick, or trap) on astral and mental levels, and therefore the projector has time to end the projection if they decide the situation has turned sour. Furthermore, at this stage, the individual will be able to differentiate between their astral and mental bodies and project the one which is desired (and safest) each time.

Conversely, Robert Bruce does not adequately train the projector to differentiate between astral and mental bodies and doesn't really address the issue of psychic self defense, except in a completely different book (Practical Psychic Self-Defense), which deals mainly with non-projection defense, and even then discusses primarily countermeasures against existing problems and not techniques which prevent "negs" in the first place, or address the possibility of the individual magician doing something stupid and hurting themselves. He also occasionally recommends things like burning sulfur which, while effective, is potentially fatal if improperly performed and honestly probably shouldn't have been recommended to the public to begin with.

The reasons that Robert Bruce doesn't get much grief for his system (and why projection is widely regarded as safe for the untrained), as far as I can tell, are:

1. Those who give up before they are successful won't complain, obviously.2. It generally works for people with past-life projection experience and3. It generally works for people who have already achieved equilibrium through previous spiritual practice but4. Groups 2 and 3 (Oh, including Robert Bruce, for the record) are naturally protected anyways as I explained before, and therefore may be unaware of danger.5. Many people project from dreamstate, which naturally uses the safer mental body while the dormant astral body hovers safely near the physical sleeper.6. Most inexperienced projectors have extremely short projections in which the potential for harm is extremely low.7. If someone DOES experience psychological trauma during projection, medical specialists chalk the belief in projection in the first place up to pre-existing insanity.8. If a projector in their astral body were to, say, die, the coroner would be unable to connect the death to a botched projection.9. People who have projected only a handful of times (including me, when I began) tend to parrot the dogma of their teachers, who tend to be groups 2 and 3. See number 4.

and finally

10. Before something dangerous happens, the projector will usually be in an environment which is scary, because the higher planes tend to reflect essence in form. Therefore, something about to hurt you will manifest violent imagery in the surroundings, often before attack, for example. This will in turn scare the projector which will in turn often shock them safely back into their body. Newsflash: Just because you escape doesn't mean you were safe to begin with. Furthermore, telling everyone that they are safe potentially eliminates this vital fear response, removing the defense mechanism to begin with.

Having been a part of Astral Dynamics (Robert Bruce's site / forum) for long enough to read some of the crazy psychic attack horror stories that I have, it boggles my mind that the community in general is so blithely dismissive of the idea that safety is never a guarantee in metaphysics.

For future reference, the opinion that I am expressing is not a popular one. I am aware of this. I've also been in these communities for several years and have yet to meet people who have been torn up during projection that have convinced me that it was an altogether "safe" experience. Robert Bruce's method will give you results, but if you'd like to try it out I recommend getting to the point in the IIH first. Chances are you'll begin finding yourself out of your body occasionally before you get to that Step anyways.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 10:50:22 PM by Animus »

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"And in this lies my honour and my reward, - / That whenever I come to the fountain to drink I find the living water itself thirsty; / And it drinks me while I drink it." - Almustafa

Thank you very much, Animus. You give me a complete answer. Now I have to reconsider my future plan. I hope all beginners like me who want to do same thing (like me) could read this post and change their minds before it's too late. Have a nice day.

I agree Melch #514 But I do not believe that you have to turn everything positive, as long as the elements are in balance then you can bear the fruits of your labour.There’s always another but:But personally I do not think Bardon explains this properly or puts enough weight on it. It wasn’t until I did another IIH system, (more GD orientated) that I understood the need and that it was not purely about balance, that it was also about knowing yourself and your outwardly projection.

This is an important concept. When my peers and I first began IIH we sat in a circle locally meeting 3 to 4 times a week and had a discussion and then practical pathworking including meditative trance and mystic projection. We learned in this way, about Hermetic Magick, Initiation Magick, Alchemy and Kaballah concurrently.

We examined this as we began to transmute the Lower Self and the Guardian Demon. Jodie questioned this , as you do, she felt that we must not eliminate the negative altogether. Her perspective as yours is that balance is necessary. And that the GD is there as a help when we need to stand in our own truth, get the back up, be stirred to righteous anger, or generally need to defend the self from harm. It is the beast within which she felt should be controlled rather than transmuted to become positive as another part of the Guardian Angel. She was right, I believe.

Imho the magician begins bi polar as red on right and blue on left as Bardon espouses but I believe that the blue is negative water and the red is negative earth. When the magician completes the Great Work they manifest positive yellow sun energy within, this changes the energy body. The right leg stays red but the sun rises and the right arm becomes orange fire(red earth + yellow sun=orange fire) then the yellow sun sets like a waterfall down a mountain (yellow sun + blue water=green air)

I think it is important to reduce the negativity and build up the light quotient but all must be in balance. We need negative elemental energies for a variety of reasons;

1)Water is the noble chi the treasure of the sunstone or chest. Chi is the river and causes the flow for all elemental energies and clairvoyance requires fire flowing through the water cauldron. Noble golden fire is called Shen it is moved from the magick heart to the brow of the magician. Water cools, cleanses and heals. Noble water is the silver Moon.

2) Earth is the reciprocal to air, and clairaudience requires air flowing through the earth cauldron. Earth grounds and shields. Noble Earth is ruby and it manifests. It cultivates the emerald together these are the Philosopher's Stone.

We need all 4 elements so we must need the negative and postive polarities, still. The negative polarity is useful and likely to occur all the way along the path. If we were truly all light we would be the immortal light body incarnate as an avatar. But we're not there , its a long infinite and eternal struggle and we need the balance along the way.

Negative/positive qualities are just sides of the same coin. Concept of dualities, qualities and correspondences is good for explanation but limiting for execution. Whatever side of coin is up, we still need the coin itself with its opposite side, too.

1. First, Bardon stresses magnetic bathing / showering of the whole body, not just eye baths. Eye bathing is more of a vision remedy and while it may accelerate development of clairvoyance later on is less integral. Next, feel fre to take an evening magnetic wash / brush if you'd like, but remember not to overstimulate your skin with abrasion or your skin and hair by excessive washing.

Magnetic bathing is useful for clearing off negative energy, especially when combined with a visualization. It's recommended after stressful days or time spent in negative situations or with negative people. However, remember that water's magnetism will also wash away any positive energy which you have accumulated in energy work (which takes a few hours to fully affect your subtle bodies). For this reason, bathe before energy work if possible, and wait a few hours afterwards before bathing. If you must bathe after energy work, use hot water, keep it short, and visualize the energies being retained. At this point in your training, you are not doing energy work without a medium (air, food, drink, etc.) but by Step III when you start with the elements and vital force, this should be remembered.

2. The purer the water the better. If you can get distilled water, that will work. The reason it is boiled is to make it sanitary for your eyes and to temporarily remove the magnetic property of the water to release any impressions that it may have stored. Therefore if you use well-filtered water, it will be physically safe, and the hotter the water has been made previous to the eye bath, the more metaphysically pure it will be.

3. You can, but the IIH is a complete system in and of itself and most purists won't recommend it. Take psi, for instance. You COULD learn psi, or you could look over what you've learned and realize that if you use the visualization of Step II to make a form and then impregnate it with a function as outlined in Step I, you have created a psi construct. If you get to Step V, it's easy to see that telekinesis (in the hermetic paradigm) can be accomplished in a few different ways - the projection of the air element, perhaps, or maybe realizing through the Akasa principle that your consciousness may infiltrate the being of the object and thus influence it. This is analogous to the active psi idea of "kineting with the soul," if a little more segmented. Personally, I think that if you're interested in psi, you should do active psi, and if you want to do the IIH, stick with magic.

4. Earlier / faster does not always mean better. I've got a long explanation for this question.

For projection in general, that's a good book for the prepared individual. I used it when I was starting out (and was not prepared) and got sufficient results to prove that it works. Unfortunately, I've been convinced over the years - partially through my own heart-attack-like experience in which my heart chakra activity failed to produce a projection and put my physical body into a state of shock - that projection isn't as perfectly safe as it's popular to believe that it is nowadays. For one thing, the mental body is more commonly projected, not the astral body, making the "astral" projection most people are familiar with actually mental projection. The astral body of the untrained individual doesn't normally stray more than a few feet from the physical body unless that individual has died or is very near death. The astral body is directly responsible for many physical life processes and therefore if it experiences damage during projection, the individual can come to physical harm. The mental body is safer in this regard, although sustaining damage to the mental body can still cause mental or emotional trauma which can later manifest physically if not corrected.

The reason projection is taught in the IIH at a relatively high Step is because Bardon wishes the student to attain the magical / elemental equilibrium. The equilibrium makes the projector incredibly difficult to harm (or glamor, or coerce, or trick, or trap) on astral and mental levels, and therefore the projector has time to end the projection if they decide the situation has turned sour. Furthermore, at this stage, the individual will be able to differentiate between their astral and mental bodies and project the one which is desired (and safest) each time.

Conversely, Robert Bruce does not adequately train the projector to differentiate between astral and mental bodies and doesn't really address the issue of psychic self defense, except in a completely different book (Practical Psychic Self-Defense), which deals mainly with non-projection defense, and even then discusses primarily countermeasures against existing problems and not techniques which prevent "negs" in the first place, or address the possibility of the individual magician doing something stupid and hurting themselves. He also occasionally recommends things like burning sulfur which, while effective, is potentially fatal if improperly performed and honestly probably shouldn't have been recommended to the public to begin with.

The reasons that Robert Bruce doesn't get much grief for his system (and why projection is widely regarded as safe for the untrained), as far as I can tell, are:

1. Those who give up before they are successful won't complain, obviously.2. It generally works for people with past-life projection experience and3. It generally works for people who have already achieved equilibrium through previous spiritual practice but4. Groups 2 and 3 (Oh, including Robert Bruce, for the record) are naturally protected anyways as I explained before, and therefore may be unaware of danger.5. Many people project from dreamstate, which naturally uses the safer mental body while the dormant astral body hovers safely near the physical sleeper.6. Most inexperienced projectors have extremely short projections in which the potential for harm is extremely low.7. If someone DOES experience psychological trauma during projection, medical specialists chalk the belief in projection in the first place up to pre-existing insanity.8. If a projector in their astral body were to, say, die, the coroner would be unable to connect the death to a botched projection.9. People who have projected only a handful of times (including me, when I began) tend to parrot the dogma of their teachers, who tend to be groups 2 and 3. See number 4.

and finally

10. Before something dangerous happens, the projector will usually be in an environment which is scary, because the higher planes tend to reflect essence in form. Therefore, something about to hurt you will manifest violent imagery in the surroundings, often before attack, for example. This will in turn scare the projector which will in turn often shock them safely back into their body. Newsflash: Just because you escape doesn't mean you were safe to begin with. Furthermore, telling everyone that they are safe potentially eliminates this vital fear response, removing the defense mechanism to begin with.

Having been a part of Astral Dynamics (Robert Bruce's site / forum) for long enough to read some of the crazy psychic attack horror stories that I have, it boggles my mind that the community in general is so blithely dismissive of the idea that safety is never a guarantee in metaphysics.

For future reference, the opinion that I am expressing is not a popular one. I am aware of this. I've also been in these communities for several years and have yet to meet people who have been torn up during projection that have convinced me that it was an altogether "safe" experience. Robert Bruce's method will give you results, but if you'd like to try it out I recommend getting to the point in the IIH first. Chances are you'll begin finding yourself out of your body occasionally before you get to that Step anyways.

Yeah, I agree 100%. It's totally irresponsible of Robert Bruce to encourage Astral Projection in someone starting out in magic. This is the last step in IIH, because you need total mastery of your emotions. You could make one mistake in astrally projection and Yes, you could die.

If you were to actually astarlly project and someone was to come across your body and touch you. Forget it, your dead.

On the subject of the elements, you only need to clear up the element blockage and you quantumly jump your success rate.

For instance, if your struggling to make progess of the mental exercises in IIH, you could visualzie the Fire , Air, Water and Earth Element and using your intuitve guidance, see under what element your blockage to doing the exercises resides.

Then either using autosuggestion, your will or transmutation through your imagination, chnage the negative characterisitics from negative to positive, you could uncover your ability to do all the exercises perfect.

The Negative qualities of any of the elemenst are not a blessing, they are a curse. It's due to fear and anxiety about uncovering the Universal power that makes most people self-sabotage dissolving it.

You don't want 2 sides of the same coin, you only want one-side of the coin the positive. You will always have inner conflict and will always shoot yourself in the foot at magic, if you allow the negative side of the coin to exist in yourself. You will always be back stepping in your progress at magic and at life.

The negative qualities will kill you in the end. This is their purpose, to destroy you and they will if you do not eradicate them from your mind and spirit. They are Evil in disquise

Get rid of the negative qualities of the elements, this leads to mastery of yourself. This is what you want.

I do agree with that but unqualified tries of eradicating negativeness can lead into suppressing it, moving it back to your mind. That means they will arrive later and much stronger than before. Many people lost their sanity and even lives by this practice.First step of real eradication of negativity is accepting it as yours. We are not one side of the coin, the other side is not opposed to us, we are the coin, both sides (and edges, too).

“But personally I do not think Bardon explains this properly or puts enough weight on it. It wasn’t until I did another IIH system, (more GD orientated) that I understood the need and that it was not purely about balance, that it was also about knowing yourself and your outwardly projection.”

Lets say (for the sake of an example) that I become irritable and quick to temper; over critical of others; and down right over domineering when normally I am vigorous; creative and original; and lead. This indicates that I am out of balance in favour of fire. Reducing the fire element alone is not going to alter the situation – I need to alter/amend…me.

By looking closely at ourselves and being totally honest with ourselves we can judge what level of each element is within us. For this you will require a list of positives and their corresponding negatives for each element (I’ve acquired one if you want it). You will also need to know the connection between each adjacent element because this will also cross over the positive/negative connections. Once you have done this add up the positives for each element and see if you are in balance. You can then action plan to amend, to bring yourself in balance.

Once you have done this honestly! Then I can see no problem in AP or RV because you are now aware of who you are and are in control of who you are!

Personally I cut my back teeth whilst doing ‘spirit of the glass’ and many people AP or RV before they even know what it is. But I concede that knowledge and balance makes the situation far easier to handle and control.

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We can look but do we see and we can listen but do we hear? So what gets in the way?👂u have to say because I don't do hints👂