My thought is that there is nothing such as prog or prog rock, but there is progressive music.

Being progressive is not equal to being progressive sometimes, when you think with the genres. Because there are some bands that makes progressive music not in all but some albums even if they are so famous so known as prog rock or progressive rock. Such as Yes, King Crimson, Rush, Genesis, Marillion, etc. Can you tell the differences between 1970's King Crimson and 2000's King Crimson? yeah I can, there are really some differences both in the name of being progressive and in general idea of making music.

Also not only rock or metal music but also other music genres can be progressive, even hip-hop(although it seems kinda funny to me) for example saying prog pop, prog folk or prog electronic music is senseless. Prog is a term that is specialised for progressive rock bands if you look at it's origin. (these are my opinions even if they may seem absurd for someone)

''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche)

Funny thing this. I have an old friend (from Finland), that is old enought to have bought Cream and Hendrix albums when they was first was released.

Still, he was a teenager in the 60's and 70's, and he was involved in the leftist movement, listening to avant-garde and free jazz and psychedelic rock, but didn't have a clue about what "progressive rock" was.

Of course he knew psychedelic rock, but he couldn't quite grasp prog. He listened to ELP and Mahavishnu Orchestra, but labeled those band as psychedelic and Jazz Fusion. He had a concept of prog, but that was from the music from Sweden called "progg" with two G's. That style was more a kind of leftist protest music, more in the vein of the US folk movement of the 60's, and maybe lyrically a precursor to punk, with biting lyrics of social criticism, but hardly viritous playing and complex arrangements that I mean by prog.

He has been on concert with the finnish bands Wigwam and Tasavallan Presidentti in the 70's, but still did not connect those bands with "prog".

There, now it is defined I can think about how people who have never heard the likes of Unvers Zero are going to feel when I launch Heresie at them. Any suggestions for more of the darkest and most frightening music gratefully accepted.

I actually don't care at all what exactly prog is. some bands which I consider to be prog (the Deep Freeze Mice, for example) will be scoffed at by others at best. in our record collection we don't distinguish between musical styles at all; it is all sorted by artist names (in case of classical composers not the artist playing the composition but the composer).

I love music. Music that challenges the mind, music that challenges the heart, music that challenges the soul. Piazzolla, Brel, Vaughn Williams, Ekome, gamelan, Chopin, Bruford, CeeLo Green, Stevie Wonder, Eno, Coltrane, Steve Reich, Palestrina, Bacharach, The Beatles, Ryuichi Sakamoto and Anthony Phillips. They have all moved me, amazed me, and challenged me; they are all progressive to me. (Forget the rock. Let it be music.)

Drew Fisher, Prog Is Alive and Well in the 21st Century,Second Cloud on the Left Farm

This is a view, again just as Dean states, that is very different from most. Mine has a very academic background, and a very intense music appreciation course, that stats with music 1,000 years ago, all the way to the most modern of folks -- something that I continued after those composers -- from the way I look at it. For example, my dad's collection ended in electronics by Stockhausen and Heinemann ... and I immediately blew him apart with Beaver and Krause, Terry Riley, Walter Carlos, Tomita and others ... and then one day, the great one saw a Kubrick film, and all of a sudden ... that's cool ... that's good ... and everyone went out and bought it, and all of a sudden electronic music of any kind is ok with everyone ... and rock music did not waste any time ... it was already doing it anyway!

Rock music, for me, was an extension of that story ... and the progression of that music ... if it weren't for the electricity, it probably would never have been heard, understood, or appreciated ... as it became! I really believe that electricity is the single biggest change in the history of music -- in the 20th century ... because it took away what was once not possible ... !!!

Like Dean states, everyone's view is different and changes through time ... and I have to agree whole heartedly and with passion, because that is true. However, I do not discuss, or review, any work, by its history ... as my only point of reference is my reaction to that moment, and I (obviously) could not react to that moment that takes place today, and not yesterday ... even with all the psychic abilities in place to help! My reaction was ... THEN ... not now, and this I have learned with my film reviews over 25 years and 500 of them! Along with a few errors now and then, of course!

But, I have done a couple of things that helped me define what I do ... I went back and watched a couple of films and re-read my reviews ... and you know what? ... I still feel the same now about what I said then, even if I use a few different words ... and now, you have an issue ... how do you define things?

I can't.

Is it progressive? For me, my experience with film "might" be progressive, but only as an element that I had no choice but use subtitles on foreign films in America, in order to learn English, because there was no grammar in this country in school to help me learn the language and spelling and pronounciation is different in at least 5 different parts of the US of A. The music itself, was more my own expression and feelings at the time. I still relate to "Close to the Edge" and "Tales" from an internal/spiritual point of view ... both of these works are not "empty" and neither are they vapid and ignorant ... they are very honest attempts to say something and tell you something, some of which many of us might not like from a spirit realm area ... because some of us would rather read another book! ... but is that reason to fault Jon Anderson and say he's screwed up? ... NO!

There is one film ... that is EXACTLY ... what you, I, all of us, here on this board ... are about ... plain and simple ... no ifs and butts about it. That film was special for me then, because I saw many of those folks, and I also fought and stood up for the many things they stood up for ... some of which were buried -- in time -- by drugs, sex, and rock'n'roll that became less and less important and vapid ... the meaning kinda lost its balance.

I always appreciated the ferocity, the strength, the excitement, and the DESIRE, above all, of Alvin Lee's "Going Home", in that film ... but it made a lot of the music in the rest of the film less important, but he was right ... at the end of the day, yeah, I would wanna go home and spend the rest of the time celebrating it in bed with my loved one ... I was not the only one to dream and ENJOY that dream, btw ... however, it made me think one thing ... so nothing else mattered? I went home, had sex and forgot about it? ... and all I could tell myself was ... nope ... I won't ... it means too much to me ... and I had my head bashed in ... and I was frisked and frisked for a whole week ... and insulted by the ROTC folks doing it ... during Kent State ... and just recently seeing that film with Neil Young helped validate a lot of my feelings ... I was NOT the only one!

To me, the music is not "progressive" since all music is a form of propression or another from the previous generation ... there are a thousand ways that jazz is a progression of a lot of classical music ... none of which folks are willing to put yap about. Likewise there is just as much great music, that is done electrically that can easily be considered "classical" ... as I state, by folks my age, that took their music to be more important and serious, than a simple hit song on the radio or the internet! ...

Lastly ... please be mindful to one set of words that Dean had here ... there was something happening in that music that made it important ... it had a 3rd dimention that most music did not have, and does not have, and this is the factor that creates "art scenes" in history of ANY of the arts ... and you can go read Robert Jensen's History of Art, or an equivalent book on Music and Literature ... with one problem ... most folks here do not have the appreciation for it all at all ... and can only discuss and ask questions that pertain to the hit, or the song's trivialities that will disappear faster than anything else.

As such, having an importance that supersedes many individuals, it deserves a "title" or"name" and I accept the "progressive" term, although as I mentioned before, almost all the arts have always been a progression of what was there before, but it makes it visible, within 10 wonderful years ... what most cultures never did in their lifetimes and I find it a treat to be a part of the folks that talk about it, and are not afraid to discuss it, and take it to the next level. It will get there, anyway, because you can't stop time, and its strength and beauty ... and none of us will ever get tired of Jimi, Janis, Jim, for example, who, for me, were the parents that helped define and bring about a lot of this music and work.

One major note here ... both film, literature and the visual arts were far ahead of music in this "progressive" stage, and a lot of that might have to do with the commercialization of popular music ... and the ability to pull all of these forces together is probably the most difficult thing to understand, even though there might be a lot of common themes, like the VietNam war and such. But it was not the only thing. Probably even bigger and more important is that this also coincides with the age that Television went into every room and people were seeing things, that were unbelievable ... and incredible ... and to me ... this is when "Guernica" hit home ... and I really believe that a lot of those arts, music included, became the symbol for that new way, the new world, the new life, the new everything ... with all the good, the bad and the ugly ... and you know you saw that in film!

Many of us also saw that in music.

Many other of us saw that in art.

It's a part of our lives, and we can tell you, not just Dean, that it was more important to many of us, then, as it is now, that we discuss it. So, in the end, are we progressive? ... yeah ... a lot more than most ever were! And we have the history and the insight to show for it!

And yes ... a major thanks to Dean for helping put words on so much of it ... so progressive, it's not funny!

... none of the hits, none of the time ... you will, eventually, find your own art inside! Try it! www.pedrosena.com

This reminds me of a discussion in which somebody quoted a prominent jazz musician saying "I don't know what jazz is" to argue that anything goes in jazz. To which I said, so...how about I call Slayer jazz henceforth.

Music categorisation is not a value judgment, but too many listeners seem to take it as such, not realising that they are really attached to an artist's work rather than the genre.

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