Comments on: Talking about science at Netroots Nation: Fact versus fearhttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html
Brain candy for Happy MutantsMon, 30 Mar 2015 20:24:05 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=4.1.1By: tboyhttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152019
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1152019I don’t know how you win for science, but the best and fastest way to lose is to assume that the people you’re trying to convert are idiots.
]]>By: Anonymoushttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152030
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1152030It’s not about ‘fear vs facts’. The fearful use facts. It’s about not accepting a life of fear. Convince the fearful to not be afraid and you’ve got someone to carry your water.
]]>By: spool32http://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152037
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1152037As a Republican conservationist, I have to say thank you very much for saying so clearly something I’ve been trying to articulate for ages.

Any country boy who saw his boyhood holler clearcut by International Paper will be receptive to conservation, alternative energy, and care for the environment no matter his politics. You don’t have to sell them on the idea that a 4 degree average temp increase will erase Florida to get these folks to support green energy.

The main problem with this approach? We don’t have the time. The whole love and understanding bit – pride of generations of liberals – might work in a vacuum, but not in a market with fear, propaganda, and 23% of the world’s GDP solidly aligned against you.

Otto’s message was basically this: Most of America is just stupid and they aren’t capable of understanding science in any meaningful way. So we, the enlightened ones, are going to have to push them over to our side on science-based political issues by using fear and a good public shaming.

So to sum up his approach:

Step 1) Use fear and insults to push your viewpoint.

Step 2) Act flabbergasted when people think you’re a partisan hack.

The problem with enlightened people is that nobody is enlightened about everything. Even if someone’s climate research is perfect, their proposed solution could be technically unworkable. Or politically naive. Or economically disastrous.

]]>By: Mister44http://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152067
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1152067re: “You don’t have to sell them on the idea that a 4 degree average temp increase will erase Florida….”

You say that like it’s a bad thing.

As for the topic – same as it ever was?

I think through out history people haven’t been very receptive to new ideas, especially ones that require a paradigm shift.

]]>By: Jonathan Badgerhttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152072
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-11520722A: Actually, the public isn’t very smart about issues that affect them directly either. That’s the whole point of books like “What’s the Matter with Kansas?” — that politicians have manipulated the working class into voting against their own best interests.

2B: The simple fact is that not everyone’s opinion of science counts equally. To really understand science really does require the appropriate education. People can’t just make scientific decisions on their gut feelings or learn enough science to do so from watching NOVA, reading a few newspaper articles or attending a few public lectures. I think there certainly is a place for scientific communication, but it is naive to expect that it can educate people to truly understand the issues for themselves. But if it serves to show the public that scientists aren’t just pulling results out of their asses, that might be good enough.

]]>By: lillydhttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152351
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1152351The Creation Care concept is great. My dad is a former-hippie who has gotten somewhat religious as he gets older. He still calls himself a treehugger and makes a good argument that the creation story means not that we have dominion over the earth, but that we are to be STEWARDS of the earth. We have a responsibility to keep God’s creation in good shape.

I don’t need religion to convince me of that personally, but it does seem like it would resonate with the nicer kind of Christian.

Sometimes the best way to get people to do something is to engineer a situation that exploits their defiance.

In this case, it’s all good.

I am heartened by the fact that the western world has overwhelmingly accepted that less pollution and more renewables are the best solution, in spite of cynical political attempts to reframe arguments more narrowly.

]]>By: Kimmohttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152971
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1152971I hate to say it, but I’m afraid Anon @#17 has a pretty solid grasp of the situation…
]]>By: GordonMhttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152466
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1152466People are smart about the things that affect them directly. They are not necessarily smart about what to do about them, or why they’re happening. I’ll rephrase: people are quite perceptive about things that affect them directly. The problem comes when asked to reason about causes and cures.

Yes, you need an education to understand science (and sometimes even that doesn’t help). But you do not win the vaccine debate or the climate change debate by saying “you’re ignorant”. That’s how you lose.

]]>By: muteboyhttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1151966
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1151966In the UK, when efforts to reduce water consumption gave rise to hosepipe bans, one guy starting selling the “Ban Beater”, which was a siphon pump for using bathwater to water your garden. “Ha ha! I’m beating your silly ban and watering my lawn anyway!” “Thanks, that’s what we wanted you to do”. You could see people buying CFLs and Priuses in the same way.
]]>By: silkoxhttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1151978
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1151978Yet that approach (“writing the majority of Americans off as idiots”) is exactly the path many scientists have taken with evolution education. Climate change is for real-serious, so we need to get it right this time, if it’s not too late.

I’ve seen that in my own family as well, although for different reasons. My step-father is into clean energy because he’s into self-sufficiency and he’s a mechanic who digs the DIY aspect.

Another thing that Cullen and Abraham brought up, and that I know the Climate and Energy Project has had good luck with, is the concept of Creation Care. Basically, your heavenly father wants you to clean up after yourself.

]]>By: Anonymoushttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152758
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1152758You guys are way too optimistic. Most people just believe what they want to believe; you can fool yourselves by going to talks, cons, and blogs frequented by other progressives, but that won’t change human nature. People (especially Americans) are incredibly good at making excuses for their behavior and writing off criticism as elitism or meaningless nose-buttery.

Sorry, guys, what’s going to “solve” climate change is slowly increasing petroleum prices pushing up the price of fertilizer (and therefore food) and breaking down our brittle, “efficient”, just-in-time supply chains. At that point, we either consign ourselves to a time of penitential luxury-fasting in the land of Nod or we panic and remove what few environmental protections are left to hopefully drop the fuel price and buy a few more years of the good life.

From what I’ve seen of human nature, I’m betting on option “B”. People would much rather have air conditioning today than 80 years of breathable air for their grandchildren.

]]>By: broklynitehttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152248
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1152248There has always been a problem with effective communication from the scientific community. And when politicians and journalists go out of their way to depict scientists as incompetent, the result is that the scientist usually gives up on trying to educate people and goes back to the lab to do “real work.” The average american does not understand the true meaning of what a theory is, thinking that it is little more than a guess to explain things. That’s how the work is used in day to day context, and so the problems begin. Germ Theory? It’s only a theory. Evolutionary Theory? It’s only a theory. Theory of Gravity? It’s only a theory.

I suspect (though I don’t know with any certainty) that the average American may not feel that global warming is as pressing as many in the science community do. But at the same time, they won’t object to cleaner rivers, reduced pollution, etc. So there is passive acceptance right there. The way you convince people to start helping is when you talk money. CFLs are a little bit more expensive than traditional incandescent. On the other hand, they use a fraction of the power and have much longer lifetimes, saving the user money. Now the government is stepping in and banning incandescents (which most people are apparently unaware of) but at least they waited until CFLs became pretty widely accepted. LED-based lighting is all well and good, but they are expensive and tend to be highly directional, when people want a wide, diffuse light source. Good quality LED bulbs can cost around $75, which is just unreasonably high for the average consumer, when CFLs cost $0.99-$2.99.

The Science Cheerleaders are utterly brilliant, and I’m happy to have read about them. Then again, I take away another message from them- see? Science chicks *can* be sexy.

]]>By: Rau Omhttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1152507
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1152507Coincidentally, I stayed up all night last night writing about Bisphenol A ( http://www.rauom.com/2011/06/30/a-psa-about-bpa/ ), and how at least for health related issues, laypeople can go straight to Pubmed and fact check the so called experts. Any reasonably literate person can take advantage of the abstracts of review articles, which summarize research findings for different levels of expertise on any subject matter. I think if you don’t make yourself feel bad about skipping irrelevant articles, highly technical ones, or those focusing on minutiae, the the remainder of Pubmed review search can still yield a good feel for what the scientific consensus is for a particular topic, and how much debate there remains. It’s also good for people outside the field to see how science is built up from individual primary research papers to some kind of consensus to general public dissemination.

Of course, our perspective may be skewed bc my partner and I both have biology undergrad degrees, and I can only imagine what the abstracts might look like to someone without a biology background.

]]>By: GordonMhttp://boingboing.net/2011/06/29/talking-about-scienc.html#comment-1151998
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1151998Point 1: Good science journalists are severely undervalued. My brother in law was one, but now he does something else (that actually pays the bills).

Point 2a: “The Stupids”. The public is very smart about issues that affect them directly. On other issues, they are perfectly happy to repeat the last or most interesting / outrageous thing they heard, maybe from the guy on his 5th bourbon at the bar. Polling on “theoretical” issues is utterly meaningless. Most replies are some variant on “F U”.

Point 2b: (again on “The Stupids”): The absolute worst thing you can say on such an issue is “trust us, we’re smarter than you”. Guarantees an “F U” response. See the entire thimerosal debate.

The average citizen was an average student and still resents those that got As and high Bs. (The average politician is even worse, since he got through school by schmoozing.)