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How to Kill Vocations in Your Diocese

Cardinal Raymond Burke has recently laid some of the blame for the precipitous decline in priestly vocations upon the feminization of the liturgy. His assertion prompts two questions. What would qualify as “feminization”? Have we in fact done that to the liturgy? The question that the assertion should not prompt is, “Would a feminized liturgy actually cause young men to turn away from the idea of the priesthood, in indifference, perplexity, or bemused contempt?” For example, would a sight of two priests twirling a-tippytoe like big-bellied ballerinas at an Easter Vigil service, along with a troop of girls waving scarves and sashes, for six minutes and more, to Aaron Copland’s arrangement of The Lord of the Dance, have any natural appeal whatsoever to the overwhelming majority of boys and young men who know to what sex they belong?

Rather, that sight would pretty much guarantee that those fellows would be stifling laughter, or staring at their knees while waiting for it all to stop, or glancing toward the doors. And just imagine if one of the boys had made the dreadful mistake of inviting a non-Catholic friend to the service, or someone wondering why anybody should take religious faith seriously.

I sometimes wonder whether we Catholics actually want vocations to the priesthood. It’s reasonable to judge people’s intentions by their habitual actions. If I do something experimental in one of my college classes, and a host of good students flee the course, I might, if I were stubborn, try it again in modified form. But if it still happens that the good students flee, and I persist in what is an experiment no longer, a reasonable observer may conclude that I don’t care if they leave. It won’t matter if I express my supposed intentions all the time, crying out, “This course needs far more students in it, and far more of the best!” Why, I might pray for those students to enroll and to stay enrolled, just as reasonably as I might pray that I could keep banging my head against the wall and not have headaches. In fact, if my actions not only continue to fail me, but begin to hurt many others also, and I still persist, that reasonable observer may attribute to me more than incompetence or indifference. He may conclude that I really want the bad result; I am glad of it.

Our summer diocese, serving more than one hundred thousand Catholics, has no seminarians. I mean that literally: not one. They have ordained two men in the last ten years, one of whom has left the priesthood to get married. Churches are closing everywhere. The stalwart priest who is our pastor has had to say Mass for five churches scattered over twenty miles. The farther-flung diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska, serving not quite one hundred thousand Catholics, has forty eight seminarians, at least two priests in every parish, no churches being shut down, and plenty of schools. The obvious question is, “Why doesn’t everyone try at least a few of the things they do in Lincoln?” Or, more properly put, “Why doesn’t everyone stop doing nine or ten of the things they never have done in Lincoln?”

Professional envy explains some of the resistance. Stubbornness explains some more. Timidity and worldly political commitments might also play a part. But I have begun to wonder whether some of our leaders are animated by a death-wish for a Church in which they no longer really believe. Here, then, from what I have observed in the failing diocese—and we are in an excellent position to observe—are the things you should do if you want to kill vocations to the priesthood. I will enumerate them in several categories:

Dilute the faith. Fighters want something to fight for. Make sure there is nothing to fight for. Do not preach the full doctrine of the Church. Never speak about the terrible sins of our age. Be more sensitive about offending a couple of the people who still show up for Mass, than about offending God. Cut the sixth commandment out of the ten. While you are at it, cut out the second, the third, and the ninth too.

Equate Christian “charity” with rendering to Caesar what is Caesar’s, God’s, your own, your children’s, and your community’s. Assume that everybody who is not named Hitler is going to heaven, because some middling bit of natural pleasantness is enough to please the Almighty. “Be nice,” said Jesus, “even as your Uncle Ronnie was nice,” your divorced Uncle Ronnie who lived with his girl friend, but was good to dogs and small children that were not his to take care of. Lower the bar so that even a moral cripple could fall over it, and at the same time make it seem as if the cripple’s feat of acrobatics, rather than the grace of God, will earn him a place in heaven. Never suggest that the faith is a matter of eternal life or death.

Turn the Sacrament into snack time. Get rid of any remaining altar rails. Make sure that everybody takes the Sacrament into his hands, like a fortune cookie. Tell the people to stand afterwards. Go as far as you can to prevent people from kneeling during Mass. Make it as difficult as possible for people to receive the sacrament of confession. Treat it as insignificant. If somebody does want the sacrament, roll your eyes and make sure that the penitent knows how much it annoys you. Don’t take the penitent’s sin seriously. In fact, give the penitent the impression that he can go on and commit the same sin with impunity. In this way you will make it likelier that a moose will amble down Main Street than that a sin-burdened soul will seek you out, or that a healthy line of them will be making their way to the confessional. And, while you are at it, make sure there are no confessionals. Turn them into closets for brooms, mops, and bleach.

Strip the altars. Are there paintings in your church? Cover them with whitewash, or take them down. Is there an old high altar in the back of the sanctuary? Chop it up and use it for fuel. Better still, tear down two or three old churches and build a new one in the shape of a gymnasium. If you place the stations of the Cross on the side walls, make them so small and ambiguous that no one can tell what they are from more than ten feet away. Put the priest’s chair in the center, at the back wall. Get rid of any trace of genuine folk art, or of the great artistic heritage of the Church. Sing twaddle instead. Wet sloppy twaddle.

Shut down your schools. Give them away to the government to manage, as they have done in Canada. Hire secularists to teach there, or, better, Catholics who hate the Church. If you have an all-male high school, turn it into a co-ed school. If you have a boys’ basketball program, and you don’t have the money for a girls’ basketball program, shut it down. Put RCIA into the hands of laymen of dubious learning and piety. Do the same for religion classes in school. Try to make sure that your classes in history or English will be just like those taught anywhere else. Make Catholic education into public education with holy water—as a stalwart in the battle to restore Catholicity to Catholic schools has put it to me most trenchantly.

Be effeminate. Get rid of every single hymn that has anything to do with Christian soldiership. Castrate the rest of the hymns. Or, better, favor hymns that make Jesus into a kind of safe sweet Boyfriend, with whom you can make out on the couch now and in heaven later. Let the music be led by women, especially women who like to be seen and heard performing it. Put the hand-raising cantor up front, to upstage the priest and Christ. Let girls do silly dance routines up and down the aisles. If you can, have five or six girls do that, in the company of one boy whose mother has obviously compelled his attendance, and who stands there gritting his teeth and fuming. Favor any musical instrument except the organ. Let the piano player tickle the keys like a hired performer at a bar, so that the communicants can, as they return to their pews, slip a fiver into the hat, right next to the long-stemmed champagne glass. Use as many altar girls as possible. Discourage the boys from joining. Give them nothing important to do. Use as many women lectors as possible. In fact, once Mass has become too bland for girls themselves, use the old ladies as acolytes, busying about the altar as if they were laying out the tablecloth and silverware for a party.

Never suggest that the Church needs men for anything. Make “man” into an obscenity. Never suggest that fathers and mothers play complementary roles in the family. Never suggest that Jesus had something important in mind when He chose twelve men as his brothers. Suggest instead that to be a genuine Christian, a man has to stop being a man. Buy the silly feminist notion that Christian women have been “oppressed” for nearly two thousand years.

Then pray for vocations, after you have done your level best to make sure that you will never have any.

Editor’s note: In the photo above, then Bishop George Niederauer, who later became Archbishop of San Francisco, celebrates Mass at Judge Memorial Catholic High School in Salt Lake City, along with girls who perform liturgical dances on the altar.

Professor Esolen is a teaching fellow and writer in residence at Thomas More College of the Liberal Arts, in Merrimack, New Hampshire. Dr. Esolen is a regular contributor to Crisis Magazine and the author of many books, including The Politically Incorrect Guide to Western Civilization (Regnery Press, 2008); Ten Ways to Destroy the Imagination of Your Child (ISI Books, 2010) and Reflections on the Christian Life (Sophia Institute Press, 2013). His most recent books are Reclaiming Catholic Social Teaching (Sophia Institute Press, 2014); Defending Marriage (Tan Books, 2014); Life Under Compulsion (ISI Books, 2015); and Out of the Ashes (Regnery, 2017).

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

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This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———

John200

Dear RomoClown,
I thought I might respond to you but then I looked at your trolleries.

It is best to let your comments stand, stinking up the air wherever the reader finds them.

Thank you for playing.

romo1900

Comparison between the MOST Religious Countries (Honduras, El Salvador) and the LEAST Religious (Sweden, Norway, Japan) countries in the World.

Here below is what I got from the Internet.

Religion in Sweden, Norway, Japan, Honduras, El Salvador:

1. Sweden:

Despite the official numbers, religiosity in Sweden plays a limited role compared to the European average. In a Eurobarometer Poll in 2010, just 18% of Swedish citizens responded that “they believe there is a god”, although a further 45% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force”.[6]

In a 2009 Gallup poll, 17% answered yes to the question “Is religion an important part of your daily life?”.[7]

Less than 4% of the Church of Sweden membership attends public worship during an average week; about 2% are regular attendees.[8]

Some scholars consider the nation to be a place where religion is regarded with “benign indifference”.[9]

2. Norway:

In modern times, Norway – like many European countries – has seen a great decline in religiosity, at least among non-immigrant Norwegian endemics, and most Norwegians are irreligious: atheism and agnosticism are the most common metaphysical views according to Zuckerman.

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2010,[5]

22% of Norwegian citizens responded that “they believe there is a God”.

44% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or
life force”.

29% answered that “they do not believe there is any sort of spirit,
God, or life force”.

5% answered that they “do not know”.

Phil Zuckerman, an Associate Professor of Sociology at Pitzer College estimates atheism rates in Norway as ranging from 31 to 72%, based on various studies.[6]

3. Japan:

Demographics on religious belief for the 20th century A 1952 survey by Yomiuri Shimbun found that 64.7% of Japanese believed in a specific religion.[32]

That number fell to 35% in 1958 and continued to fall to 31% in 1963 and 1968 and 25% in 1973 before climbing back up to 34% in 1978. In 1983 it again slipped, this time to 32%.[33]

The 2000 survey by the Yomiuri Shimbun found that 76.6% of Japanese do not believe in a specific religion.[32]

The number fell to 72% by 2005, with only 25% believing in religion and 20% practicing faith.[34]

According to Steve Heine in 2011, less than 15% of Japanese believe in gods.[35]

The 1919 book “The Mastery of the Far East: The Story of Korea’s Transformation and Japan’s Rise to Supremacy”, avowedly partial to a then hoped Christianization of Japan, reports of a census of 409 students in three schools showed that only 21 acknowledged any faith; of these, there were 15 Buddhists, 4 Christians, 1 Confucian, and 1 Shintoist. It reports also that young men at the Imperial University in Tokyo were asked to indicate their religions; out of those surveyed, 50 were
Buddhist, 60 were Christian, 1500 were atheist, and 3000 were agnostic.[36]

—————

4. Honduras:

There are no reliable government statistics on religious affiliation in Honduras.[2] In a 2007 nationwide survey, CID-Gallup reported that:

As of May 2012, the majority of the population is Christian. Roman Catholics (47%) and Evangelicals (33%) are the two major Christian denominations in the country. Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism are two of the notable Protestant denominations of El Salvador. Anglicanism also has a long and growing presence.

Those not affiliated with any religious group amount to 17% of the population.

—————————————–

The problem about getting UNIFORM DATAS is that the Surveys taken WERE NOT UNIFORM. However, the information that was taken is still enough to FORM DEFINITE CONCLUSIONS.

The Conclusion is that Sweden and Norway, which 200 years ago was almost almost 100% Christian is NO LONGER Christian.

Japan was NEVER Christian, is almost MAINLY ATHEISTIC/AGNOSTIC/Non Believer today.

Honduras and El Salvador is STILL Mainly Christian, but NOT the Solidly Catholic as in the Past. 47% is indentify as Catholic, with some 30 to 39% as Protestant. Both has some 17% or so as “NONES” which has spread even to PREVIOUSLY Predominantly Catholic Countries.

——————

Final CONCLUSION:

Catholicism/Christianity is DECLINING, DECLINING, and DECLINING.

The Future is Secularism and NON Belief.

All the Countries that gave up Traditional Religion is MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL than those that retained their Christian/Catholic Belief.

Dear romo1900,
Looking back two months, I did not use clear words. I apologize for misleading you and maybe other readers. You mistook me for one who thinks people should leave the Church; I think the contrary is true. Leaving the faith will put you in danger concerning eternity.

To be clear, I support those who leave an individual heretical parish (or priest) for a faithful parish (or priest).

Second point: Concerning anything Catholic, HuffPo is not a good source. They do not give the Church a fair hearing. HufPo likes “dissenting Catholics” and dislikes faithful Catholics. Thus HuffPo’s posts are highly suspect. Do not take them at face value.

Third point concerns polling: Do you know how and why most published polls produce false results, and how this occurs? I’ll start you forward; 50,000 interviewed in 57 countries means about 871 per country. Do you know how the pollsters derived their sample? Is it representative of the Irish population?

If you have been properly trained in statistical research methodology, then you can see the rest. I urge you forward. You can figure out some useful things for yourself.

Fourth point: Reuters as source? See comments on HuffPo above.

Final point: I suggest you be very careful in using polls as research. The future of secularism and non-belief is paganism, which is hell on earth and maybe hell for eternity. That is why the Church offers a way to avoid self-destruction.

I wish you the best.

romo1900

But the Poll findings were NOT just published in HuffPo but in numerous other Publications. And the Pollsters involved are very Experienced and Respected around the World.

Maybe, you should NOT dismiss something just because it appears in one source.

————————————————–

Here is something else that might interest you.

The Bible WAS WRITTEN by MAN, whether you choose to accept it or Not.

In fact, it was written by UNKNOWN MEN, whose names are forgotten in Antiquity. So it is WORSE that written by Man with Names.

At least the men in recent times have names and can assume responsibilities for their writings. Those Biblical writing do NOT even have names of Men whose names can assume the responsibilities of their works.

YOU DO put your Trust in Man, because the Bible WAS ALL WRITTEN by MEN, whether you choose to accept it or Not.

In fact, it was written by UNKNOWN MEN, whose names are forgotten in Aintiguty. So it is WORSE that written by Man with Names.

At least the men in recent times have names and can assume responsibilities for their writings. Those Biblical writing do NOT even have names of Men whose names can assume the responsibilities of their works.

You need to read this Book below:

———————————————-

Biblical Nonsense: A Review of the Bible for Doubting Christians
Paperback – January 19, 2005

by Jason Long (Author)

————————————————–

Here are some examples of the
reviewers of the Nonsense from the Bible

Most Helpful Customer Reviews

277 of 307 people found the following review helpful

This book is a must have for doubting christians!By Tim W. on August 17, 2005

After I had done much bible studying as a christian and became gradually overwhelmed by the lack of consistency, out of a desperate need for answers I decided to level the playing field and venture into the world of skeptical biblical scholarship including my study of the writings of former christians, ministers, and pastors who have left Christianity, including this book by Dr Long, Biblical Nonsense. I knew that if the bible is the remarkable
document it is heralded to be, surely it can stand up to the most rigorous critical analysis. After pouring over thousands of pages of information from both sides of the issues including this book by Dr. Long, I have learned that the average skeptic has a much deeper and broader knowledge of the Bible than most average people who claim to be Christians.
An exhaustive reading of the comparative literature from both believers and former believers that is widely available in print and on the internet for all to see, proves this to be true. The real truth of the bible sceptic is that he is ultimately led by a search for the truth, not for the blatantly dishonest reasons parroted by the likes of JP Holding and other Christian apologists. I have discovered for myself that Christian apologists will begin with the fundamentalist-driven conclusions or assertions (that the bible is inerrant, the bible is the spirit-written word of god, every word in the bible is true) and try to find any facts or evidence in support of these three assertions(and many others), conveniently ignoring strong and often irrefutable evidence that contradicts their haughty preconceptions. At the very least, this mannner of biblical analysis only seeks to support an intellectually dishonest and uncompromising foregone conclusion. helpful to you? Yes No

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195 of 226 people found the following review helpful

Simply Irrefutable By Savanthar on October 19, 2005

This book is simply irrefutable. Dr. Jason Long does an excellent job in substantially proving the Bible is not the divinely inspired
“Word of God,” but instead of mishmash of humanly inspired words attributed to a god. Dr. Long does an excellent job refuting the Bible on many grounds and he does it in an easy to read style that would even penetrate the hard heads of Fundamentalists should they choose to accept the challenge to
their faith by actually reading this book. Dr. Long attacks the Bible from scientific perspectives, logical perspective Christian claim that it is infallible. He shows the Bible is rife with contradictions that haven’t been effectively handled by Biblical apologists,
despite their reaching for straws and claiming otherwise. He also exposes
several mistranslations of the original text that change the whole meaning of
the commonly accepted scripture. These errors in translation are still evident
in many Bibles to this day. To make the correction to some of these
mistranslations would change all of accepted Christian dogma! So much for
inerrancy. Some Bibles are translated more honestly than others and Dr. Long
goes into this quite well.

This book lays it on the line and in my opinion will put Christian and Jewish apologists out of business. It is simply that good. Read
it and find out for yourself. I’m sure you won’t be disappointed in the sophistication of scholarship that went into writing and presenting this little gem of a book. Even the “great” Christian apologist J.P. Holding came
here to put up a review on this book and his review couldn’t even come close to
refuting Biblical Nonsense. It makes me wonder how these apologists stay in
business and keep fooling the believing masses with their non-scholarly baloney
slicing (B.S.) Dr. Read more ›8 Comments Was this review helpful to you? Yes No

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181 of 213 people found the following review helpful

This book will free you from illogical fears based on fantasies By Tim L on February 8, 2006

I am 38, have been a conservative Christian all of my life. This book was the first exposure to me of anything concerning the Bible other than what I have been conditioned to believe. Dr. Long makes this simple to understand
yet gives totally irrefutable evidence as to why the Bible is a man made fiction. The realization that comes with knowing that Hell is a myth created by men wanting to frighten people into certain behaviour is very liberating. I only wish I had the first 38 years of my life back to not waste on fantasies.

——————————————-

If all that does NOT Convince you, you need to click on “Bible Nonsense” on the Internet and you will find galore that the Bible is the most DUMB and REDICULOUS book ever

Written by Men. There are evidence Galore that shows that the Bible is SHEER NONSENSE!!!

————————————-

romo1900

But if you look at the findings above you will find that the Crime rates, Educational level, and Generousity of those Atheistic counries EXCEED those Christan Countries by a Mile!!!

—————————————————

romo1900

Did you read? 2/3 (two thirds) of Catholics give up their Faith.

Why??? If Catholicism is so true, why do so many Catholic GIVE UP their FAITH????

Again, I ask you the SAME QUESTION?? Why do TWO THIRDS Catholics give up their Faith if Catholicism is so TRUE???????

Maybe the reason is that Catholicism is NOT TRUE, but is FALSE and people realize it!!

Read below:

———————————

I got this from the Internet under “PEW Research Centrum Forum on Religious & Public Life” ……………………..

APRIL 27, 2009

Faith in Flux

Revised February 2011*

———————-The reasons people give for changing their religion – or leaving religion altogether – differ widely depending on the
origin and destination of the convert. The group that has grown the most in recent years due to religious change is the unaffiliated population.

Two-thirds of former Catholics who have become unaffiliated and half of former Protestants who have become unaffiliated say they left their childhood faith because they stopped believing in its teachings, and roughly
four-in-ten say they became unaffiliated because they do not believe in God or
the teachings of most religions. ………………………………

———————Catholicism has suffered the greatest net loss in the process of religious change. Many people who leave the Catholic Church do so for religious reasons; two-thirds of former Catholics who have become unaffiliated say they left the Catholic faith because they stopped believing in its teachings, as do half of former Catholics who are now Protestant. Fewer
than three-in-ten former Catholics, however, say the clergy sexual abuse scandal factored into their decision to leave Catholicism……………………………….

———————————-

Did you read? 2/3 (two thirds) of Catholics give up their Faith.

Why??? If Catholicism is so true, why do so many Catholic GIVE UP their FAITH????

Again, I ask you the SAME QUESTION?? Why do TWO THIRDS Catholics give up their Faith if Catholicism is so TRUE???????

Maybe the reason is that Catholicism is NOT TRUE, but is FALSE and people realize it!!

————————————–

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————–

Marianne

I just watched it, halfway through I had to stop. This is blasphemy.
If they want to dance like this, they should go over to the parish life center and put on a show.
My parish is mostly elderly so we couldn’t do this drama if we wanted to. Thank God.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

——-

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines
Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its
members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism
has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they
considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the
Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has
undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to
the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the
Church over that period
— that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of
the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as
religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————

samnigromd

Savoring Mass (the only event of love, by love, & for love in the
world)

By Samuel A. Nigro, M.D., 8-2-08

When you go
to Mass, will you please mentally project yourself onto the altar and be at one
with the priest throughout the entire celebration! Activate your self. Pay attention to all on the altar. You will then recognize, celebrate and savor
the experience of participating in the thousands of years old promotion of love—and Truth, Oneness, Good and
Beauty! Ancient Secrets! Will you please attend, realize, embrace and
encourage yourself and others in the only event wherein love has been
promoted for millennia from start to finish! (For the short sighted and
ignorant, “love” is not the same as sex – it never has been and never will be). As you participate intensely when with a live
rock-band, do the same with the love-band i.e., the Mass. Use the Mass Mantra over and over: “Life Sacrifice Virtue Love Humanity Peace
Freedom Death” –over and over to fill your mind spiritually when not reciting
all the words read and heard in the liturgy.

It is foolish to go to Mass expecting
to be passively entertained when much more is going on. Any entertainment is secondary to actively
doing mentally, and even physically when possible, all that the priest does. Say to yourself or out loud all that he
says. Say to yourself or out loud what
is read or recited. Sing, or say as if
singing, the songs which are always tranquil, loving and positive. Attend to and find the love themes in every
element of the Mass—listen for them, search for them, say them for yourself,
your family, your country and the world.
Embrace the Mass totally by investing in all that goes on, watching the
priest and doing all with him enjoying an elevated state, finding peace and
transcendental oneness with all. It is
love of self; it is love of family; it is love of community; it is love of
humanity; it is love of the universe; it is the love of God. Love a lot!
Feel it, get it, and give it, at each Mass. Once a week is not enough, and there is no
Sunday without it.

All in the Mass is a metaphorical way
of living above, beyond and in spite of the craziness of the world! At least think “Be nice to everybody” for a
change and break the millennia old barriers of separateness between people–reach
out, shake hands and wish peace to all, including strangers. Let the metaphorical realities of water
(Life, the Father), wine (Pursuit of the Transcendentals, the Holy Spirit), and
blood (Liberty, Jesus the Christ) fill your being at Mass filling yourself with
Love and its automatic symbiotic Sacrifice.
And “Let His Blood (and Body) be
on us and our children,” being certain there is a House of the Lord for every
one of us. Recreate and relive the Divine
Sacrifice for the love of sinners helping all change to a transcendental life
by rejecting sin which is willful entropy or the willful increase of non-being. Give thanks for all including, not knowing
any alternatives, the “Chosen People” who did what needed to be done. Participate in and experience the Sacrifice
of Jesus – the metaphorical Reality of an ultimate sacrificial bloodletting separation
from the body and partake of Love spending a few moments in an ecstatic Love
Revolution ( a“Lovelution”) to sanctify the universe. Taste and see how good the Lord is!

If one
participates by eager intellectual unselfish conscious immersion into an
authentic Mass, found are Touches of Eternity:

comfort, not stress;

relief, not agitation;

dignity, not exploitation;

unity, not fragmentation;

integrity, not immorality;

identity, not depersonalization;

spirituality, not materialism;

personhood, not misanthropy;

truth, not propaganda;

oneness, not alienation;

good, not inequity;

beauty, not hellish descent;

life affirmation, not death;

gentle liberty, not any form
of slavery;

empathic justice, not
arbitrary oppression;

mutuality, not selfishness;

peace, not conquest or terror;

virtue, not politics;

open mindedness, not
brain-washing mind control;

life and love songs, not
shrieks for hate;

shaking hands with strangers,
wishing them peace, not beating each other up;

The Incarnation. The Incarnation. The Incarnation. The Reign of God, not man.

There is nothing like it for 2000 years. And you will hear the full New Testament (the
Book!) over a three year period. You
will find gentle Jesus (Love Truth Oneness Good Beauty) everywhere. And a touch of The Statimuum—transcendental
fulfillment–the instant eternal total accumulation of Truth, Oneness, Good,
Beauty and Love ever—it is a touch of Heaven.
You can feel it. This is the Mass
when you say it with the priest. A bonus
is if you know and say the Latin translations for parts of the older Mass still
present today, because you will be dealing with the highest orders of
angels: the Seraphim, the Cherubim, and
the Thrones (Words are angels at Mass)! So savor and use Latin whenever you can.

Go to Mass
and get into it! There is nothing like
it. And there is nothing in it except
ancient secrets for love and loving one another. GET AN EXPERIENCE FILLED WITH LOVE, TEACHING
YOU HOW TO LOVE, SHOWING YOU WHAT LOVE IS:
THE MASS. The Mass Mantra:
LifeSacrificeVirtueLoveHumanityPeaceFreedomDeath.”

samnigromd

LIVE THE LAST WORDS OF CHRIST—A POETIC EFFORT of sorts… These are the eight
ensoulment “plays” to win the “game” of life by following the “rules” of life. They constitute “LOVEOLUTION” (page
616)–the revolution/evolution brought by Jesus through the Church.. Sacramental living is to participate in the
pre-Big Bang Eternity.

From Samuel A. Nigro, M.D.’s books ANCIENT
SECRETS, SOUL OF THE

EARTH and EVERYBODY FOR EVERYBODY:

(One of the LAST WORDS OF CHRIST can apply to every activity…

Learn
ENSOULMENT (the Anthropic Schema) of the basics of
Christian living—

Sacramental, universal, scientific, virtuous, transcendental

{Therapeutic.

as existing in basic physics. (Otherwise,
it is entropy.)

[Mass Mantra: Life,
Sacrifice, Virtue, Love, Humanity,

Peace,
Freedom, Death without Fear]

“Father, forgive them for they know not
what they do.”

“Pater, dimitte illis, quia nesciunt, quid
faciunt.”

Confess into a unity spectrum giving
hope and identity…

{Selective Ignoring.

“spectrum”-a splitting of energy
into position-time

relationships.

[ Humanity]

“This day thou shall be with me in Paradise.”

“Hodie
mecum eris in Paradiso.”

Holy Order into a dimension
for Life (the Father) giving

courage
and being…

{Non-Reactive Listening.

“dimension”-space
coordinates (length, width,height) and

time.

[ Virtue ]

“Woman, behold thy son. World, behold your mother.”

“Mulier,
ecce filius tuus. Omnes, ecce mulier
tuus.”

Baptism into a dignity event
giving faith and matter…

{Living Things are Precious.

“event” –a point in space-time of something certain that

happens.

[ Life ]

“My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

“Deus
meus, Deus meus, utquid dereliquisti me?”

Holy Communion into an
integrity field giving charity and

truth…

{Subdued Spontaneity Non-Self
Excluded.

“field” –a matrix existing throughout space and time.

[ Sacrifice ]

“I thirst.”

“Sitio.”

Matrimony into an uncertainty for Liberty (the Son)
giving

temperance and
good…

{Personhood…Conscious of
Consciousness (C2) for the

Species.

“uncertainty” –accuracy of position is inverse to accuracy of

movement.

[Freedom ]

“It is finished.”

“Consummatum
est.”

Extreme Unction into a
spirit singularity giving justice and

beauty…

{Detached Warmth and Gentleness.

“singularity” –a point of space-time curvature infinity at

gravitational collapse.

[Death without Fear ]

“Into thy hands I commend my spirit.”

“In
manus tuas, Domine, commendo spiritum meum.”

Confirm into an identity
quantum giving prudence and

oneness…

{Affect Assistance.

“quantum” –the indivisible unit of giving and receiving

energy.

[Peace ]

“The earthquake finale.”

“Il
Terremoto.”

Grace into a force Pursuing the Transcendentals (the Holy

Spirit giving holiness and being.

{Make that relationship count! The Flag of Mankind and:

“I
pledge to treat all humanely by caring for and respecting other’s bodies; by
understanding other’s minds but being true to myself without disrespect; and by
accepting the emotions of others as I control my own. I will have mercy on others with gentle
liberty and empathic justice for all.”
(Check out PeaceMercy.com)

“force” –that which affects matter particles—transcendental

strings
between human particles.

[ Love ]

Alan Napleton

I too just watched the video and I’m experiencing a rush of emotions that include both sadness and anger that something like this could occur at Holy Mass. I thought this idiotic behavior was behind us. I’ll pray for these priests and everyone else who allowed this disgraceful exhibition to take place.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

—

Nel

I live in Poland. From time to time I have to go ‘home’ to California – specifically the Dioceses of Oakland and Sacramento – and I dread it. I dread it because I attend Mass daily, and I know I will have to attend Mass that is totally feminized. The priest cannot make himself say ‘Father’ about God, so he replaces ‘Father’ with the word “God.” Everything that might sound masculine is stripped away – and surprise, surprise, most of the people in attendance are women. There’s a procession of women carrying the book of the Gospels up the aisle; women opening the tabernacle, women giving communion (at least the priest did get off his butt and give communion in one of the lines), women reading the readings, women leading the singing – complete with ‘look at me!’ arm-waving; yes, there’s a piano – with the psalm tortured into 4/4 time; altar-girls who come down from the sanctuary to hold hands with people in the first rows of pews during the Lord’s Prayer; homilies about how the United States will save the world and self-congratulatory smiles among the congregation as they hear how good and wonderful they all are; and at the end, they applaud the whole performance.

And I am in agony, weeping inside, gritting my teeth, trying to pray before and after Mass with fingers jammed in my ears and eyes tightly squeezed shut against all the – LOUD – inane conversation sometimes taking place right over my head as people ignore the bizarre woman who seems to be – what is that? praying or something? at their feet.

I’ve had to say to people, “Excuse, me, I’m a visitor. Is this a Catholic church? I’m used to silence for prayer before Mass in a Catholic church.’ The people apologize and turn down the volume on their conversation from 10 to 5.

It’s agonizing, and all the time I am in California my soul is crying out to return home to Poland, where the Mass is reverent, communion lines are long, the people know that if they have missed Sunday Mass or are living in mortal sin, they must not approach communion, priests are willing to talk about sin in homilies, and there is no compromise with ‘the world.’ I work with a religious order and they are worried because they ‘only’ have six novices this year and ‘only’ have twelve postulants when in living memory they had twenty or thirty.

I hope I never have to return to the United States again as long as I live, and for one reason: the Mass is always torture to me. I will say that I have noticed that abuses are far more likely in churches run by Diocesan priests than in churches run by religious orders and that churches run by American priests tend to be far worse than churches run by priests from traditionally Catholic countries or the third world.

I cannot bear to look at the video above. I can guess from the still image that it would pain and haunt me for days if I did.

St JD George

I think this problem has more universality to it than the US, though it is acute here and perhaps throughout the west. We will see later this year, but it’s hard to imagine 3 million people here coming in passion to see the Pope like was experienced this past week. Of course, with more comments like don’t reproduce like rabbits we might not ever experience that. I lived in Italy for a year about a decade ago and I can tell you attending Mass was fairly sterile. People just seemed to come and go fulfilling an obligation without hardly any passion, and nobody talked much about it outside of church. There seems to be something about the evolution of western culture and the accumulation of mammon that makes many people lose faith that God is in control.

Vinny

Punch people don’t turn the other cheek.

St JD George

I’m struggling to understand your reply in the context of mine, or Nel. Are you suggesting that punching them in the nose might fill them more with passion?

Vinny

Actually I was surprised that Pope Francis, speaking on the necessity of morality in your actions with regard to the terrorism
in France, mentioned punching someone if they offend you. I suppose that’s what I would like to do but not what I should do.

St JD George

I didn’t hear that one. I did hear the comment on NFP and that we don’t need to breed like rabbits, or something like that. I was left speechless – not that it’s incompatible but that it sounded so trite the way he said it.
There’s a big difference between turning the other cheek for a verbal offence … quite another to defend yourself when your life is threatened, which is in fact the reality of the situation in the response of one culture.

Patti Day

I believe the pope said that people think one has to breed like rabbits in order to be Catholic, rather than what you have said here; however, the remark, no doubt meant to be humorous and friendly, rings hollow, as thoughtless a remark as was his “say something naughty about my mother and I punch you–pow.

St JD George

I know what you are saying and I believe that to be true. However, this is the Pope after all and I guess I do hold him to little higher standard in the use of words including awareness of how many hang on his words – both those who adore him who look for inspiration and his detractors who are happy to throw his words back in his face. Sometimes I think he tries too hard to be in touch with the common man.

Patti Day

Would it help if I said his words were ill considered rather than thoughtless? I was a supporter of Francis until the extraordinary synod, but there have been enough things he has said that later have to be explained by the Vatican as not really being what he meant, that I wish he wouldn’t try so hard.

St JD George

I miss JPII, and even Bennedict despite his reluctance. I’m trying to rationalize Francis the man in the context of his life experience. The evilness of communism wasn’t as real to him. I think of him as someone still trying to find their voice but I know he is who he is and he’s probably not going to change much.

disqus_Qmc7pDyHTl

I didn’t appreciate Benedict while we had him on the throne of Peter, and feel guilty I didn’t pray enough for him…maybe if more of us prayed for him more often he would have found the strength to stay on.

St JD George

Truthfully I didn’t either. The sharp contrast I guess took some getting used to. A brilliant man and humble servant who I believe never had to offer a clarification for a glib comment, only maybe because it was over some of our heads.

John O’Neill

Benedict XVI was and is an excellent pope; his yes is yes and his no is no as the gospel advises us. Benedict XVI is an excellent teacher and priest; his multiple works on the Faith are a true treasures to the Faith. His three volume Jesus of Nazareth is a treasure. His short talks on the Fathers of the Church is unsurpassed. His encyclicals on Hope,Charity and Faith are inspiring especially his Spe Salvi. The constant insulting of Benedict done by the Francis Church is despicable. I remember a priest I know getting all teary eyed when he announced that Francis appeared on the cover of Time magazine; I replied to him that I thought appearing on the cover of Time magazine was not a good thing and most probably a bad thing. The NYT gave him good marks; the NYT is run by and for people who hate the very essence of the Catholic Church. The Americanized priests were shouting with joy for the ambiguity that is the Francis Church. Thank God that the SSPX Society exists and thank God that Bishop Lefebreve kept the Faith.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Yes, Benedict XVI was The Man for me as well.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

—-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————–

Glenn M. Ricketts

In the meantime, I’ll pray for you.

romo1900

The COMPARISON between the MOST Religious Countries (Honduras, El Salvador) and the LEAST Religious (Sweden, Norway, Japan) countries in the World.

Here below is what I got from the Internet.

Religion in Sweden, Norway, Japan, Honduras, El Salvador:

1. Sweden:

Despite the official numbers, religiosity in Sweden plays a limited role compared to the European average. In a Eurobarometer Poll in 2010, just 18% of Swedish citizens responded that “they believe there is a god”, although a further 45% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force”.[6]

In a 2009 Gallup poll, 17% answered yes to the question “Is religion an important part of your daily life?”.[7]

Less than 4% of the Church of Sweden membership attends public worship during
an average week; about 2% are regular attendees.[8]

Some scholars consider the nation to be a place where religion is regarded with “benign indifference”.[9]

2. Norway:

In modern times, Norway – like many European countries – has seen a great decline in religiosity, at least among non-immigrant Norwegian endemics,[ and most Norwegians are irreligious: atheism and agnosticism are the most common metaphysical views according to Zuckerman.

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2010,[5]

22% of Norwegian citizens responded that “they believe there is a God”.

44% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force”.

29% answered that “they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force”.

5% answered that they “do not know”.

Phil Zuckerman, an Associate Professor of Sociology at Pitzer College estimates atheism rates in Norway as ranging from 31 to 72%, based on various studies.[6]

3. Japan:

Demographics on religious belief for the 20th century A 1952 survey by Yomiuri Shimbun found that 64.7% of Japanese believed in a specific religion.[32]

That number fell to 35% in 1958 and continued to fall to 31% in 1963 and
1968 and 25% in 1973 before climbing back up to 34% in 1978. In 1983 it again slipped, this time to 32%.[33]

The 2000 survey by the Yomiuri Shimbun found that 76.6% of Japanese do not believe in a specific religion.[32]

The number fell to 72% by 2005, with only 25% believing in religion and
20% practicing faith.[34]

According to Steve Heine in 2011, less than 15% of Japanese believe in gods.[35]

The 1919 book “The Mastery of the Far East: The Story of Korea’s
Transformation and Japan’s Rise to Supremacy”, avowedly partial to a then hoped Christianization of Japan, reports of a census of 409 students in three schools showed that only 21 acknowledged any faith; of these, there were 15

Buddhists, 4 Christians, 1 Confucian, and 1 Shintoist. It reports also that young men at the Imperial University in Tokyo were asked to indicate their religions; out of those surveyed, 50 were Buddhist, 60 were Christian, 1500 were atheist, and 3000 were agnostic.[36]

—————

4. Honduras:

There are no reliable government statistics on religious affiliation in
Honduras.[2] In a 2007 nationwide survey, CID-Gallup reported that:

As of May 2012, the majority of the population is Christian. Roman Catholics (47%) and Evangelicals (33%) are the two major Christian denominations in the country. Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism are two of the notable Protestant denominations of El Salvador. Anglicanism also has a long and growing Presence.

Those not affiliated with any religious group amount to 17% of the population.

———————

The problem about getting UNIFORM DATAS is that the Surveys taken WERE
NOT UNIFORM. However, the information that was taken is still enough to FORM DEFINITE CONCLUSIONS.

The Conclusion is that Sweden and Norway, which 200 years ago was almost almost 100% Christian is NO LONGER Christian.

Japan was NEVER Christian, is almost MAINLY ATHEISTIC/AGNOSTIC/
Non Believer today.

Honduras and El Salvador is STILL Mainly Christian, but NOT the Solidly
Catholic as in the Past. 47% is indentify as Catholic, with some 30 to 39% as Protestant. Both has some 17% or so as “NONES” which has spread even to

PREVIOUSLY Predominantly Catholic Countries.

——————

Final CONCLUSION:

Catholicism/Christianity is DECLINING, DECLINING, and DECLINING.

The Future is Secularism and NON Belief.

All the Countries that gave up Traditional Religion is MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL than those that retained their Christian/Catholic Belief.

The TRUE message is that Christianity as a whole is DECLINING towards EXTINCTION!!!

If you don’t believe me, just click on “Christanity
decline” and see what you get on the Internet!! Even Christians/Catholics themselves admit that they are DECLINING World Wide and they are arguing whose fault it is and what they can do to stop the DECLINE.

Fankly, I don’t think that the Catholic Christ ever existed. And I have been finding MORE and MORE Christianity EXPERTS are agreeing with me.

Bible EXPERTS who are in the KNOW have written Books and Books showing how Christianity and the Bibles are Complete LIES and FRAUDS!

1, The Bible manuscripts have NO Authenticity at ALL!!! During the first 300 years after the supposedly death of Christ, anyone can write
anything they want and there were NO system to verify the TRUTH of the Writings or the VALIDITIES of the authors.

Any “Tom”, “Dick”, or :Harry”, can write anything about Christ and sign his name a “Mathew”, “Mark”, “Luke, or “John”. There were NO
NEWSPAPERS or INTERNETS to verify or dispute anything that was written or the
name of the Author that was signing his name to the manuscript.

There were therefore Documents ABOUND about Christianity. None of any of these manuscripts can be in any way verified and in many cases, there were NOT even signatures or there were FAKE Signatures to these Documents.

2. It was NOT until Emperor Constantine who lived some 300 years after the supposedly death of Christ that anything was done to try to systemize Christianity and the Bible. He tries to use Christianity as a means of satisfying his POLITICAL Ambitions. That is why he called a Council of Nicea and have the BEST Scholars in the Empire together and tried to create a new Religion called Christianity.

3. This Council of Nicea is the one that formalized the Bible.

They threw away any document that seemed to contradict the DIVINITY of Christ.
The basics of this NEW Bible is supposedly made to form a NEW Religion. Any
Manuscript that shows Christ in an UNFAVORABLE Light or UNGODLIKE behaviour was THROWN away or DESTROYED.

That is why you have Unauthorized Gnostic Documents HIDDEN AWAY in caves, because the Emperor commanded those UNACEPTABLE Documents to be
eliminated. Anyone keeping these unacceptable documents were in violation of the EMPEROR”S EDICT and therefore were subject to PUNSHMENT and DEATH.

This is why there are NO TRUE Authenticity for the Bible. They are an EDITED Collection of MANUSCRIPTS EDITED to SERVE a POLITICAL PURPOSE, NOT the seek the TRUTH of any TRUTH.

This is why EVERYONE NEEDS to READ Bart D. Ehrman’s latest NEW BOOK.

“How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee”

Jesus was not God. He did not think he was God. The myth about Jesus being divine was later invented and got codified at the behest of the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE. Constantine, who
converted to Christianity around 312 CE, wanted Jesus “made” divine
so he could use Christianity as propaganda to keep his empire together: one
emperor, one state, one God.

Constantine instructed all other writings or Bibles be Destroyed so that there is only ONE Bible.

—————————-

So Christ was NEVER a god! He was made INTO a god by persons who lived 3 hundred years after the time of Christ to further their selfish political ambitions.

You should read the Book. It is FASCINATING and will BLOW your mind away and expose Christianity to the TRUTH.

These “TRUTHS” are confirmed by other Bible EXPERTS like, Dan Barker, Robert M. Price, Bishop John S. Spong, Earl J. Doherty, and David Fitzerald.

You can look up any of those names on the Internet to get ALL the Information about them and a listing of ALL their Books.

——————————————————-

Glenn M. Ricketts

If all of this is true, why do you feel the need to come and rant at a site like this? Yours seems a very troubled soul.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

————–

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

—————-

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

To hear the Pope use a derogatory comparison frequently used by those who oppose the Church’s teaching on contraception, and to hear him speak of people having “too many children,” makes those of us with “rabbit ears” wonder if he is in touch with the truths of the Faith.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

…..

Tweety58

Pope Francis shoots from the lip=it’s like he lacks self=control.I am struggling to TOLERATE this Pope.Neither Saint John Paul,Benedict nor Bl Paul VI needed a sematicist to “reinterpret what they said.

When I was explaining Papal Infallibility to my son while I was Catechizing him and undoing all the New Age Catholicism taught in CATHOLIC SCHOOLS-I said only when the Pope speaks ex Cathedra are we obliged to recognize an Infallible Truth like the Assumption.

On Faith and morals he must hold great sway over we Catholics,but I also told him we had VERY bad immoral Popes(they could NOT let the Gates of Hell to prevail because of Christ’s Promise and the ENFORCER-the Holy Spirit)

I also told him if the Pope says a Blue Sky is PINK-he needs glasses.is drunk or is lying.Popes are sinners like the rest of us.

Ethan

Pope Francis said that if someone swore against his mother, a “punch awaited them.” It was said jokingly. I doubt he would punch anybody. He was making the point that Bill Donahue made that free speech that offends what others hold sacred may have repercussions.

TommyD6of11

And exactly what repercussions? Execution? Collateral murder of any “innocents” who just happen to get in the way?

I was very disturbed by Donahue’s rather untimely comments. His desperate need to point out that Charlie Hebdo did not deserve praise only served to justify the killing … try as he may to disclaim this.

I take great inspiration from the fact that Jesus Christ is more than strong enough to take insults and slurs from non-believers.

By their actions, Islamists show their god to be weak and shallow.

St JD George

I’d characterize that behavior based on my own experiences as one based on an abundance of insecurity coupled with a lack of self confidence in core beliefs. Kind of like what people in power do when they are trying to hide something they know deep down is wrong but are so driven to obtain or maintain their power that they kill anything out of fear that might implicate them if discovered. A lot of communist regimes have mastered this technique over time to become efficient killing machines of dissenters. No cult of peace to be found, not even between “associates” always looking over their shoulder in fear.

M

Donahue only opens his mouth to change feet. I know he means well, and I could even agree with the basic sentiment expressed, but his timing could not have been worse.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————————-

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————–

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

——————————-

NYCFiredog

He’s referring to the Pope saying how he would punch his friend if he insulted the Popes mother as he is justifying the Islamic attack on those who insult the demonic prophet of Islam

Ethan

He did not try to justify the terrorist attack in Paris. He condemned it in the strongest possible terms. He joked he would punch a friend, who was standing next to him and laughing, if the friend insulted his mother. He also defended both freedom of faith and freedom of speech. He merely cautioned that freedom of speech should not be abused to attack what others hold sacred.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

—-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————–

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

——–

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————–

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

—

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————————

Glenn M. Ricketts

But then the manner in which Mass is celebrated these days is itself so “sterile” and emasculated. If you were looking for spiritual sustenance, you have to keep repeating “Ex Opere Operato,” and remember how it was in a time long ago and far away. On the off chance that my own bishop, and many of his peers, should happen to read this article, he would instantly conclude that we needed another diocesan task force on the Status of Women in Today’s Church, etc., etc. Of course, the liturgical abominations depicted in the video here would no doubt fill him and others with awe, and a desire to imitate what they saw.

St JD George

Unfortunately I don’t have the experience of a time long ago and far away. Not entirely true as I have attended traditional Mass a few times in GA and OH. Sorry to hear about the awe factor.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Actually, as it’s often been noted here, it is possible to celebrate Mass in the OF with appropriate decorum and reverence, ti’s just not done very much, for the same reasons that so many clergy are so vehemently hostile to the EF. They like being the host on Sunday morning and displaying their talents at repartee or making puns on scriptural passages, etc., etc. The difference is that in the EF, there are exactly zero options, and the fact that priest faces the altar makes him God’s instrument, rather than the congregation’s entertainer. And of course, Anthony is spot on about the effeminacy of the current liturgical style, which many men avoid by instinct. But many clergy seem to think that’s a good thing: they’;re really responding to the “needs of our time,” etc/, etc., etc.

St JD George

Sadly, the needs of our time and indeed for all time is for salvation, not to be entertained. And the need is extreme.

They’re really responding to the middle-aged, middle (mostly white) class women who dominate their parish. They are the ones they have to face every day when they first show up for the job.

This is not to denigrate women, or middle class women, or middle aged women, by the way. Women have been the bedrock of the family and the Church for centuries. But the ones commonly found today in American churches are (like everyone else) Moralistic Therapeutic Deists, and highly secularized at that. And this explains why women, who were once the bulwark for tradition in the Church, have now become forces for change – change that reflects what’s happening in the larger society, conformity to which they crave the most.

It takes a well formed, determined, and patient (and holy) priest to go up against that and try to change it. And he had better have the support of his bishop.

charlesrwilliams

When a man apostasizes he walks out the door. When a woman apostasizes she sits in the pew and tries to corrupt parish life. Women like church in a social sense. What happened post Vatican 2 was a massive apostasy from the faith implemented by priests and religious. The men left the priesthood and middle-aged women apostates began to dominate parish life. So we are left with limp-wristed old men in the priesthood and semi-Christian females controlling the liturgy and catechesis. There are a handful of believers left and in many places they are marginalized.

Anglicanæ

Indeed, liberals take no prisoners. They’d rather see the church go down in flames (pun not intended, but apt) than do the right thing.

noterroristsallowed

So you typed: “What happened post Vatican 2 was a massive apostasy from the faith implemented by priests and religious.” But it’s the women in the pews to blame for this whole mess. This is why people think Catholics are a joke. There is nothing wrong with our Catholic Faith, it’s the reason behind so called “catholic people”

Annette Breathnachski

Whenever there is a vacuum in male leadership the women take over. You see it in the black community and definitely in our church.. Most priests are terrorized by their music banshees. They get zero support from the bishops who are hiding in their castles.

L

A vacuum in male leadership can also create a lot of underlying anger in young men. I’m certain that there are very valid reasons for this. I’ve seen this up close, boys angry at female authority when what they need is male authority to love nurture and strongly guide.

If society doesn’t set aside a very important role for true men, women do take over in their efforts to fix everything and make it all better, as if only a woman’s touch is what’s needed. I’ve seen this so many times. We women are very valuable but not at the expense of a man’s. Many a time I’ve heard women say that they can do things better then men. No wonder young boys and men aren’t all that interested in becoming priests. Why would they want their “mother” still calling some of the shots, controlling many things within the church and Church , basically emasculated them or at least keeping them under control.

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

Nature hates a vacuum. If Christianity declines, Islam will fill the void.

romo1900

NONSENSE!! NONSENSE!! NONSENSE!!

Read below: (we are talking about 5 different countriies which Catholicism/Christianity used to Dominate and which NOW Catholicism is fading FAST!!! None of them did Islam fill in the Vacuum. What filled in the Vacuum was Protestant Christianity and Secularism and Non Belief):

————————————————————————

Comparison between the MOST Religious Countries (Honduras, El Salvador) and the LEAST Religious (Sweden, Norway, Japan) countries in the World.

Here below is what I got from the Internet.

Religion in Sweden, Norway, Japan, Honduras, El Salvador:

1. Sweden:

Despite the official numbers, religiosity in Sweden plays a limited role compared to the European average. In a Eurobarometer Poll in 2010, just 18% of Swedish citizens responded that “they believe there is a god”, although a further 45% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force”.[6]

In a 2009 Gallup poll, 17% answered yes to the question “Is
religion an important part of your daily life?”.[7]

Less than 4% of the Church of Sweden membership attends public worship during an average week; about 2% are regular attendees.[8]

Some scholars consider the nation to be a place where religion is regarded with “benign indifference”.[9]

2. Norway:

In modern times, Norway – like many European countries – has seen a great decline in religiosity, at least among non-immigrant Norwegian endemics, and most Norwegians are irreligious: atheism and agnosticism are the most common metaphysical views according to Zuckerman.

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2010,[5]

22% of Norwegian citizens responded that “they believe there is a God”.

44% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or
life force”.

29% answered that “they do not believe there is any sort of spirit,
God, or life force”.

5% answered that they “do not know”.

Phil Zuckerman, an Associate Professor of Sociology at Pitzer College estimates atheism rates in Norway as ranging from 31 to 72%, based on various studies.[6]

3. Japan:

Demographics on religious belief for the 20th century
A 1952 survey by Yomiuri Shimbun found that 64.7% of Japanese believed in a specific religion.[32]

That number fell to 35% in 1958 and continued to fall to 31% in 1963 and 1968 and 25% in 1973 before climbing back up to 34% in 1978. In 1983 it again slipped, this time to 32%.[33]

The 2000 survey by the Yomiuri Shimbun found that 76.6% of Japanese do not believe in a specific religion.[32]

The number fell to 72% by 2005, with only 25% believing in religion and 20% practicing faith.[34]

According to Steve Heine in 2011, less than 15% of Japanese believe in gods.[35]

The 1919 book “The Mastery of the Far East: The Story of Korea’s Transformation and Japan’s Rise to Supremacy”, avowedly partial to a then hoped Christianization of Japan, reports of a census of 409 students in three schools showed that only 21 acknowledged any faith; of these, there were 15
Buddhists, 4 Christians, 1 Confucian, and 1 Shintoist. It reports also that young men at the Imperial University in Tokyo were
asked to indicate their religions; out of those surveyed, 50 were
Buddhist, 60 were Christian, 1500 were atheist, and 3000 were agnostic.[36]

—————

4. Honduras:

There are no reliable government statistics on religious affiliation in Honduras.[2] In a 2007 nationwide survey, CID-Gallup reported that:

As of May 2012, the majority of the population is Christian. Roman Catholics (47%) and Evangelicals (33%) are the two major Christian denominations in the country. Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism are two of the notable Protestant denominations of El Salvador. Anglicanism also has a long and growing presence.

Those not affiliated with any religious group amount to 17% of the population.

—————————————–

The problem about getting UNIFORM DATAS is that the Surveys taken WERE NOT UNIFORM. However, the information that was taken is still enough to FORM DEFINITE CONCLUSIONS.

The Conclusion is that Sweden and Norway, which 200 years ago was almost almost 100% Christian is NO LONGER Christian.

Japan was NEVER Christian, is almost MAINLY ATHEISTIC/AGNOSTIC/Non Believer today.

Honduras and El Salvador is STILL Mainly Christian, but NOT the Solidly Catholic as in the Past. 47% is indentify as Catholic, with some 30 to 39% as Protestant. Both has some 17% or so as “NONES” which has spread even to PREVIOUSLY Predominantly Catholic Countries.

——————

Final CONCLUSION:

Catholicism/Christianity is DECLINING, DECLINING, and DECLINING.

The Future is Secularism and NON Belief.

All the Countries that gave up Traditional Religion is MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL than those that retained
their Christian/Catholic Belief.

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

—

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————–

Lisa Hurley

Do not tarnish all Catholic women with this same brush.

Glenn M. Ricketts

To which I’d only add the feminist nuns who usually have a bishop’s ear to tell him what he needs to know about “women’s issues.” I’ve seen some priests who are rock-solid and know how to navigate this mare’s nest, others who are intimidated and – if you will – don’t know how to be men. They aren’t homosexuals, but far from masculine in the traditional sense and maddeningly “sensitive,” etc. etc. Others are feminist true believers, and just try to make a point with one of them. They “get it, ” you see, and their mission is enlighten the likes of us. Wow. Unfortunately, that outlook is shared among many bishops.

By the way Athelstane, nice to see that we both read some excellent web pages.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was not instituted to make the priest the star of the ‘show’. Therefore we don’t need entertainers, comedians or priests with their own ideas of what the mass should or should not look or sound like! Report these irreverent priests and then find a TLM parish to attend.

Glenn M. Ricketts

I certainly agree, although I don’t know where I’d report such priests – the bishop where I am would probably give them a gold star.

James Kabala

And yet there is a bit of an unspoken problem here, which is that the Tridentine Mass was never considered ultra-masculine when it was actually in (widespread) use. If you read old Protestant polemics, they were always accusing the Church and its rituals of being effeminate. There is a certain type of man who is alienated by elaborate ritual, as much by a good one as by a bad one.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Was it the ritual of the Mass, or the historical context in which those criticisms were leveled? Recall that the era just prior to the Reformation was not exactly a time of glory for the priesthood: lots of corruption and easygoing sensuality and no doubt a more effeminate, worldly clergy. Whatever the reaction of some men to the elaborate ritual of the EF, I’d say that vastly larger numbers are thoroughly alienated by the “sensitive,” touchy-feely stuff they flee from in the present.

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————————

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

The COMPARISON between the MOST Religious Countries (Honduras, El Salvador) and the LEAST Religious (Sweden, Norway, Japan) countries in the World.

Here below is what I got from the Internet.

Religion in Sweden, Norway, Japan, Honduras, El Salvador:

1. Sweden:

Despite the official numbers, religiosity in Sweden plays a limited role

compared to the European average. In a Eurobarometer Poll in 2010, just 18% of

Swedish citizens responded that “they believe there is a god”,

although a further 45% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force”.[6]

In a 2009 Gallup poll, 17% answered yes to the question “Is religion an important part of your daily life?”.[7]

Less than 4% of the Church of Sweden membership attends public worship during
an average week; about 2% are regular attendees.[8]

Some scholars consider the nation to be a place where religion is
regarded with “benign indifference”.[9]

2. Norway:

In modern times, Norway – like many European countries – has seen a great
decline in religiosity, at least among non-immigrant Norwegian endemics,[ and
most Norwegians are irreligious: atheism and agnosticism are the most common metaphysical views according to Zuckerman.

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2010,[5]

22% of Norwegian citizens responded that “they believe there is a
God”.

44% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or
life force”.

29% answered that “they do not believe there is any sort of spirit,
God, or life force”.

5% answered that they “do not know”.

Phil Zuckerman, an Associate Professor of Sociology at Pitzer College estimates atheism rates in Norway as ranging from 31 to 72%, based on various
studies.[6]

3. Japan:

Demographics on religious belief for the 20th century A 1952 survey by Yomiuri Shimbun found that 64.7% of Japanese believed in a specific religion.[32]

That number fell to 35% in 1958 and continued to fall to 31% in 1963 and
1968 and 25% in 1973 before climbing back up to 34% in 1978. In 1983 it again slipped, this time to 32%.[33]

The 2000 survey by the Yomiuri Shimbun found that 76.6% of Japanese do not believe in a specific religion.[32]

The number fell to 72% by 2005, with only 25% believing in religion and
20% practicing faith.[34]

According to Steve Heine in 2011, less than 15% of Japanese believe in gods.[35]

The 1919 book “The Mastery of the Far East: The Story of Korea’s
Transformation and Japan’s Rise to Supremacy”, avowedly partial to a then hoped Christianization of Japan, reports of a census of 409 students in three schools showed that only 21 acknowledged any faith; of these, there were 15

Buddhists, 4 Christians, 1 Confucian, and 1 Shintoist. It reports also that young men at the Imperial University in Tokyo were asked to indicate their religions; out of those surveyed, 50 were Buddhist, 60
were Christian, 1500 were atheist, and 3000 were agnostic.[36]

—————

4. Honduras:

There are no reliable government statistics on religious affiliation in
Honduras.[2] In a 2007 nationwide survey, CID-Gallup reported that:

As of May 2012, the majority of the population is Christian. Roman Catholics (47%) and Evangelicals (33%) are the two major Christian denominations in the country. Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism are two of the notable Protestant
denominations of El Salvador. Anglicanism also has a long and growing presence.

Those not affiliated with any religious group amount to 17% of the population.

———————

The problem about getting UNIFORM DATAS is that the Surveys taken WERE
NOT

UNIFORM. However, the information that was taken is still enough to FORM

DEFINITE CONCLUSIONS.

The Conclusion is that Sweden and Norway, which 200 years ago was almost almost 100% Christian is NO LONGER Christian.

Japan was NEVER Christian, is almost MAINLY ATHEISTIC/AGNOSTIC/Non Believer today.

Honduras and El Salvador is STILL Mainly Christian, but NOT the Solidly
Catholic as in the Past. 47% is indentify as Catholic, with some 30 to 39% as Protestant. Both has some 17% or so as “NONES” which has spread even to

PREVIOUSLY Predominantly Catholic Countries.

——————

Final CONCLUSION:

Catholicism/Christianity is DECLINING, DECLINING, and DECLINING.

The Future is Secularism and NON Belief.

All the Countries that gave up Traditional Religion is MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL than those that retained their Christian/Catholic Belief.

Your Google skills are good, so what does that matter? God sent his only son into the world the reveal his covenant, to Jews, Gentiles and eventually all of mankind. The story of man obtaining comfort and confidence then rejecting Christ while in this world is as an ancient one, even in the Old Testament. Despite all the great wisdom of the west, it crumbles from rot within as it turns it’s back. All the great minds can’t put it back together again. Your life is finite Romo, what do you have faith in? I’m an engineer so I live by numbers, but those mean little to me. Salvation through Christ is my passion and love, and concern for the spiritual well being of my fellow man, including you. Don’t wait until your last breath to come to know the one who knew you before you were formed in the womb, the one who truly loves you.

romo1900

You are living a SHAM!!!! The Christian Christ NEVER EVEN EXISTED!!!

You are living a COMPLETE LIE!!! And I can prove it to you in so many ways. Anyway, here is one way, and that is just the tip of an Ice Berg. I can continue for hours, days, and even weeks, showing how your belief is a TOTAL LIE!!!

——————————————————————————

The Bible WAS WRITTEN by MAN, whether you choose to accept it or Not.

In fact, it was written by UNKNOWN MEN, whose names are
forgotten in Antiquity. So it is WORSE that written by Man with Names.

At least the men in recent times have names and can assume
responsibilities for their writings. Those Biblical writing do NOT even have names of Men whose names can assume the
responsibilities of their works.

YOU DO put your Trust in Man, because the Bible WAS ALL WRITTEN by MEN, whether you choose to accept it or Not.

In fact, it was written by UNKNOWN MEN, whose names are
forgotten in Aintiguty. So it is WORSE that written by Man with Names.

At least the men in recent times have names and can assume
responsibilities for their writings. Those Biblical writing do NOT even have names of Men whose names can assume the responsibilities of their works.

You need to read this Book below:

———————————————-

Biblical Nonsense: A Review of the Bible for Doubting Christians
Paperback – January 19, 2005

by Jason Long (Author)

————————————————————-

Here are some examples of the reviewers of the Nonsense from the Bible.

Most Helpful Customer Reviews

———————————————————

277 of 307 people found the following review helpful

This book is a must have for doubting christians!By Tim W. on
August 17, 2005

After I had done much bible studying as a christian and became
gradually overwhelmed by the lack of consistency, out of a desperate need for answers I decided to level the playing field and venture into the world of skeptical biblical scholarship including my study of the writings of former christians, ministers, and pastors who have left Christianity, including this book by Dr Long, Biblical Nonsense. I knew that if the bible is the remarkable document it is heralded to be, surely it can stand up to the most rigorous critical analysis. After pouring over thousands of pages of information from both sides of the issues including this book by Dr. Long, I have learned that the average skeptic has a much deeper and broader knowledge of the Bible than most average people who claim to be Christians.

An exhaustive reading of the comparative literature from both believers and former believers that is widely available in print and on the internet for all to see, proves this to be true. The real truth of the bible sceptic is that he is ultimately led by a search for the truth, not for the blatantly dishonest reasons parroted by the likes of JP Holding and other Christian apologists. I have discovered for myself that Christian apologists will begin with the
fundamentalist-driven conclusions or assertions (that the bible is inerrant, the bible is the spirit-written word of god, every word in the bible is true) and try to find any facts or evidence in support of these three assertions(and many others), conveniently ignoring strong and often irrefutable evidence that contradicts their haughty preconceptions. At the very least, this mannner of biblical analysis only seeks to support an intellectually dishonest and uncompromising foregone conclusion. Was this review helpful to you? Yes No

——————————————————————-

195 of 226 people found the following review helpful

Simply Irrefutable By Savanthar on October 19, 2005

This book is simply irrefutable. Dr. Jason Long does an
excellent job in substantially proving the Bible is not the divinely inspired “Word of God,” but instead of mishmash of humanly inspired words attributed to a god. Dr. Long does an excellent job refuting the Bible on many grounds and he does it in an easy to read style that would even penetrate the hard heads of Fundamentalists should they choose to accept the challenge to
their faith by actually reading this book. Dr. Long attacks the Bible from scientific perspectives, logical perspectives and he challenges the common Christian claim that it is infallible. He shows the Bible is rife with contradictions that haven’t been effectively handled by Biblical apologists, despite their reaching for straws and claiming otherwise. He also exposes several mistranslations of the original text that change the whole meaning of the commonly accepted scripture. These errors in translation are still evident in many Bibles to this day. To make the correction to some of these mistranslations would change all of accepted Christian dogma! So much for inerrancy. Some Bibles are translated more honestly than others and Dr. Long
goes into this quite well.

This book lays it on the line and in my opinion will put Christian and Jewish apologists out of business. It is simply that good. Read it and find out for yourself. I’m sure you won’t be disappointed in the sophistication of scholarship that went into writing and presenting this little gem of a book. Even the “great” Christian apologist J.P. Holding came here to put up a review on this book and his review couldn’t even come close to refuting Biblical Nonsense. It makes me wonder how these apologists stay in business and keep fooling the believing masses with their non-scholarly baloney slicing (B.S.) Dr. Read more ›8 Comments Was this review helpful to you? Yes No

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181 of 213 people found the following review helpful

This book will free you from illogical fears based on fantasies
By Tim L on February 8, 2006

I am 38, have been a conservative Christian all of my life. This
book was the first exposure to me of anything concerning the Bible other than what I have been conditioned to believe. Dr. Long makes this simple to understand yet gives totally irrefutable evidence as to why the Bible is a man made fiction. The realization that comes with knowing that Hell is a myth created by men wanting to frighten people into certain behaviour is very liberating. I only wish I had the first 38 years of my life back to not waste on fantasies.

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If all that does NOT Convince you, you need to click on
“Bible Nonsense” on the Internet and you will find galore that the
Bible is the most DUMB and REDICULOUS book ever written by Men. There are evidence Galore that shows that the Bible is SHEER NONSENSE!!!

Christianity and the Bible is as FALSE as can be.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief.

————————————————————–

St JD George

You sound like an angry person Romo, I’m sorry to read of your anguish and inability yet to accept the limits of your mind and human finiteness. If you had a relationship with Christ you would have peace. The Bible was not a project of dictation recorded by scribes, but a collection of books documenting history including much being the interpreted or inspired word of God to man. Your citations are as old as Ciaphus and the Pharises who saw but would not believe because of their own lust for power and control. Do you really believe modern men have anything new to reveal? Faith is a gift and a mystery. Angry people still attack him today in disbelief, and people full of love and joy are devoted to him. The limits of your mind keep you from accepting that which you can not embrace tangibly. Don’t put all your faith in men who are fallen. Know Christ, know peace, know love.

romo1900

Did Christ EVER EVEN EXISTED?? Biblical Scholars SAYS NO!!!

Did the historical Jesus exist? A growing number of scholars don’t think so

Posted on August 30, 2014 by DeltaV

Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.” In other words, they think that around the
start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.

At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized.

For over 200 years, a wide ranging array of theologians and historians—most of them Christian—analyzed ancient texts, both those that made it into the Bible and those that didn’t, in attempts to excavate the man behind the
myth. Several current or recent bestsellers take this approach, distilling the scholarship for a popular audience. Familiar titles include Zealot by Reza Aslan and How Jesus Became God by Bart Ehrman.

But other scholars believe that the gospel stories are actually “historicized mythology.” In this view, those ancient mythic templates
are themselves the kernel. They got filled in with names, places and other real world details as early sects of Jesus worship attempted to
understand and defend the devotional traditions they had received.

The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All . For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular
scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.

Fitzgerald is an atheist speaker and writer, popular with secular students and community groups. The internet phenom, Zeitgeist the Movie introduced millions to some of the mythic roots of Christianity. But Zeitgeist and
similar works contain known errors and oversimplifications that undermine their credibility. Fitzgerald seeks to correct that by giving young people interesting, accessible information that is grounded in accountable scholarship.

More academic arguments in support of the Jesus Myth theory can be found in the writings of Richard Carrier and Robert Price. Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history uses the tools of his trade to show, among other things, how Christianity might have gotten off the ground without a miracle. Price, by contrast, writes from the perspective of a theologian
whose biblical scholarship ultimately formed the basis for his skepticism.

It is interesting to note that some of the harshest debunkers of fringe Jesus myth theories like those from Zeitgeist or Joseph Atwill (who
tries to argue that the Romans invented Jesus) are from serious Mythicists like Fitzgerald, Carrier and Price.

The arguments on both sides of this question—mythologized history or historicized mythology—fill volumes, and if anything the debate seems to
be heating up rather than resolving. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity. Since
many people, both Christian and not, find it surprising that this debate even exists—that credible scholars might think Jesus never
existed—here are some of the key points that keep the doubts alive:

1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef. In the words of Bart Ehrman: “What sorts
of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him?

Nothing.

As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions
of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death –
even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian,
non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)

2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts. Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles.

Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’
authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples –or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few
cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the
early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!

Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity
unfolded. “Placing the Gospels after Paul makes it clear that as written documents they are not the source of early Christianity but its product. The Gospel — the good news — of and about Jesus existed before the Gospels. They are the products of early Christian communities
several decades after Jesus’ historical life and tell us how those communities saw his significance in their historical context.”

3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began. For a variety of reasons, the practice of pseudonymous writing was common at the time and many contemporary documents are “signed” by famous figures.

The same is true of the New Testament epistles except for a handful of letters from Paul (6 out of 13) which are broadly thought to be genuine. But even the gospel stories don’t actually say, “I was there.” Rather, they claim the existence of other witnesses, a phenomenon familiar to
anyone who has heard the phrase, my aunt knew someone who . . . .

4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other. If you think you know the Jesus story pretty well, I suggest that you pause at this point to test yourself with the 20 question quiz at ExChristian.net.

The gospel of Mark is thought to be the earliest existing “life of Jesus,” and linguistic analysis suggests that Luke and Matthew both simply
reworked Mark and added their own corrections and new material. But they contradict each other and, to an even greater degree contradict the much later gospel of John, because they were written with different objectives for different audiences. The incompatible Easter stories offer one example of how much the stories disagree.

5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons. They include a cynic philosopher, charismatic Hasid, liberal Pharisee, conservative rabbi, Zealot revolutionary, nonviolent pacifist to borrow from a much longer list assembled by Price. In his words (pp. 15-16), “The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a
progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage.

But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time.” John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar grumbles that “the stunning diversity is an academic embarrassment.”

For David Fitzgerald, these issues and more lead to a conclusion that he finds inescapable:

Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord’s Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors’ longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.

In a soon-to-be-released follow up to Nailed, entitled Jesus: Mything in Action, Fitzgerald argues that the many competing versions proposed by secular scholars are just as problematic as any “Jesus of Faith:”

Even if one accepts that there was a real Jesus of Nazareth, the question has little practical meaning: Regardless of whether or not a
first century rabbi called Yeshua ben Yosef lived, the “historical Jesus” figures so patiently excavated and re-assembled by secular
scholars are themselves fictions.

We may never know for certain what put Christian history in motion. Only time (or perhaps time travel) will tell.

See, I believe in Studying Christianity and the Bible like a Scientist, rather than like a Blind Faith Believer.

——————-

St JD George

What you lack Romo is objectivity which is not a good trait in science. You should know that even today with all the marvels of modern technology, people can still walk out of a room and report the “facts” of what they just witnessed or heard differently. Nothing you have regurgitated is new or original, what you lack in your mission is faith and love, or misplaced faith. You yourself are Christ’s creation, as is the world around you. Spread joy and enjoy it while you are in this world Romo. Science is empirical, it only theorizes what is observed and new facts come up all the time that challenge our preconceived notions. I realize that is your point also in attempting to refute, but my point is not to put too much faith in it. If your mind is made up before you start your journey as to where you will end up then of course the things you pick up along the way will be sure to get you there safely. If you open your eyes and are objective then you might just see that there are multiple paths. Open your eyes to the path that leads to heaven Romo. Believe it or not, I too shared similar doubts and gravitated towards those things as you today, but I ultimately chose another path and to get off the one I was on. I can’t make Christ come sit next to you to convince you, it does take some faith. But then, Caiapas had that and chose not to relenquish his worldly power so for some even that would not be enough.

romo1900

Prove that the Christian Christ even Existed? Go ahead, I challenge you.

I showed evidences of Experts that doubted

1. that the Christian Christ existed. and

2. that he was NEVER even god.

Go ahead and refute those two points.

Thanks.

St JD George

What is the point of citing numbers. If you never had true faith then you didn’t really lose it. Calling yourself something doesn’t make you that. I see Christ in everything in the world around me, as well as I do Satan trying to poison. You put your faith in so called experts, men of finite minds trying to prove what they already believe to be true who lack objectivity. Your struggles are as old as man’s existence so I hope you appreciate that you are hardly original though they may new thoughts for you. Men are fallen Romo, including many who answer the call to Holy Orders, and even you and I. You would be surprised to learn of my advanced educational background as well but I’m not going to get into that because it’s of no point in the discussion. Faith has nothing to do with it. If you only seek what you think you are looking for you will find it, if you open your eyes and heart though you might just be surprised how much more there is to discover about the mystery of life, and faith.

romo1900

Religious People Branded As Less Intelligent Than Atheists In Provocative New Study

That’s the provocative conclusion of a new review of 63 studies of intelligence and religion that span the past century. The meta-analysis showed that in 53 of the studies, conducted between 1928 to 2012, there was an inverse relation between religiosity — having religious beliefs, or performing religious rituals — and intelligence. That is, on average, non-believers scored higher than religious people on intelligence tests.

What might explain the effect?

Scientists behind studies included in the review most often suggested that “religious beliefs are irrational, not anchored in science, not testable and, therefore, unappealing to intelligent people who ‘know better.’”

But the researchers who conducted the new meta-analysis say the answer is a bit more complicated. They suspect intelligent people might have less of a “need” for religion.

“Intelligence may also lead to greater self-control ability, self-esteem, perceived control
over life events, and supportive relationships, obviating some of the benefits that religion sometimes provides,” study co-author Jordan Silberman, a graduate student of neuroeconomics at the University of Rochester, told The Huffington Post in an email.

So if you’re a believer, does this mean you’re a dope?

I’m sure there are intelligent religious people and unintelligent atheists out there,” ilberman said in the email. “The findings pertain to the average intelligence of religious and non-religious people, but they don’t necessarily apply to any single person. Knowing that a person is religious would not lead me to bet any money on whether or not the person is intelligent.”

The researchers acknowledge the limitations of the meta-analysis. It did not look at type of religion, for example, or at the role culture might play in the interaction between religiosity and intelligence.

In addition, The Independent pointed out that the researchers used a narrow definition of intelligence. In the paper, intelligence is defined as “the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience.” This excludes other forms of intelligence, like creative and emotional intelligence.

The meta-analysis was published in Personality and Social Psychology Review.

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Quick Poll

What do you think about the study’s bold claim?

I’m a total believer in the study –it makes a lot of sense.

56.22%

I have no faith in the study’s findings — believers are just as smart as non-believers.

15.81%

It’s just researchers playing with statistics — it doesn’t apply to individual people.

27.97%

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St JD George

Of course the Bible was written by man, what a silly statement nobody refutes. But men none the less who were inspired by and recorded their interpretations of their interactions with God, and their stories of Jesus which were passed down originally through oral tradition.
But that means little to one who is not open to the Holy Spirit. You will someday though, and I pray it is not when you breath your last breath and you have overwhelming feeling of regrets. Accept Christ into your life, stop looking for “gotcha” issues and come to know the joy of love like those of us who have relationships with Christ do.

romo1900

Alas!! Now you are finally getting the message!

The TRUE message is that Christianity as a whole is DECLINING towards EXTINCTION!!!

If you don’t believe me, just click on “Christanity
decline” and see what you get on the Internet!! Even Christians/Catholics themselves admit that they are DECLINING World Wide and they are arguing whose fault it is and what they can do to stop the DECLINE.

Frankly, I don’t think that the Catholic Christ ever existed. And I have been finding MORE and MORE Christianity EXPERTS are agreeing with me.

Bible EXPERTS who are in the KNOW have written Books and Books showing how Christianity and the Bibles are Complete LIES and FRAUDS!

1, The Bible manuscripts have NO Authenticity at ALL!!! During the first 300 years after the supposedly death of Christ, anyone can write
anything they want and there were NO system to verify the TRUTH of the Writings or the VALIDITIES of the authors.

Any “Tom”, “Dick”, or :Harry”, can write anything about Christ and sign his name a “Mathew”, “Mark”, “Luke, or “John”. There were NO
NEWSPAPERS or INTERNETS to verify or dispute anything that was written or the
name of the Author that was signing his name to the manuscript.

There were therefore Documents ABOUND about Christianity. None of any of these manuscripts can be in any way verified and in many cases, there were NOT even signatures or there were FAKE Signatures to these Documents.

2. It was NOT until Emperor Constantine who lived some 300 years after the supposedly death of Christ that anything was done to try to systemize Christianity and the Bible. He tries to use Christianity as a means of satisfying his POLITICAL Ambitions. That is why he called a Council of Nicea and have the BEST Scholars in the Empire together and tried to create a new Religion called Christianity.

3. This Council of Nicea is the one that formalized the Bible.

They threw away any document that seemed to contradict the DIVINITY of Christ.
The basics of this NEW Bible is supposedly made to form a NEW Religion. Any
Manuscript that shows Christ in an UNFAVORABLE Light or UNGODLIKE behaviour was THROWN away or DESTROYED.

That is why you have Unauthorized Gnostic Documents HIDDEN AWAY in caves, because the Emperor commanded those UNACCEPTABLE Documents to be eliminated. Anyone keeping these unacceptable documents were in violation of the EMPEROR”S EDICT and therefore were subject to PUNSHMENT and DEATH.

This is why there are NO TRUE Authenticity for the Bible. They are an EDITED Collection of MANUSCRIPTS EDITED to SERVE a POLITICAL PURPOSE, NOT the seek the TRUTH of any TRUTH.

This is why EVERYONE NEEDS to READ Bart D. Ehrman’s latest NEW BOOK.

“How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee”

Jesus was not God. He did not think he was God. The myth about Jesus being divine was later invented and got codified at the behest of the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE. Constantine, who converted to Christianity around 312 CE, wanted Jesus “made” divine so he could use Christianity as propaganda to keep his empire together: one
emperor, one state, one God.

Constantine instructed all other writings or Bibles be Destroyed so that there is only ONE Bible.

—————————-

So Christ was NEVER a god! He was made INTO a god by persons who lived 3 hundred years after the time of Christ to further their selfish political ambitions.

You should read the Book. It is FASCINATING and will BLOW your mind away and expose Christianity to the TRUTH.

These “TRUTHS” are confirmed by other Bible EXPERTS like, Dan Barker, Robert M. Price, Bishop John S. Spong, Earl J. Doherty, and David Fitzerald.

You can look up any of those names on the Internet to get ALL the Information about them and a listing of ALL their Books.

——————————————–

St JD George

Your thoughts and scepticism are not original Romo, non believers have clung to reasons to doubt for 2000 years. You might do well to read more unbiased material in your quest to validate your preconceived notions. Some of the “facts” you raise are true about events, but ascribing motives is the art of speculation and fantasy. You might start by taking a journey of introspection, thinking about your own soul, the finiteness of your life, the temporal, spatial and material infinite nature of the universe, and ponder what it is that you hate so much in accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Even though you have a rebellious heart, he still loves you.

romo1900

Can ypu prove that the Catholic Jesus even existed??? I and so many Bible and Christian Experts greatly doubt it.

This below is very interesting. What do you think? Read this below:

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Why Are Educated People More Likely to Be Atheists?

Religion works more through the emotions than through reason.

Post published by Nigel Barber Ph.D. on Feb 19, 2014 in The Human Beast

The more education a person receives, the more likely they are to become atheists (1). Non belief also increases with intelligence and income. Residents of more educated countries see religion as less important in their
daily lives (2).

Why are highly educated people more likely to be atheists? There are two categories of explanation. Either religious people lack a capacity for skepticism, or they choose to make a blind leap of faith and subscribe to the
belief system adopted by their religious community.

The Santa Claus Analogy

According to a deficient skepticism view, educated people are more capable of critical thought. They subject the claims of religious teachers to more intense skeptical inquiry. This is rather like older children asking
themselves how a fat man can navigate a 9-inch chimney flue, magically reemerging
next to the Christmas tree with packages measuring more than a foot in three
dimensions. Older children connect these absurdities with a pattern of suspicious movements by parents and draw the inevitable conclusion that Santa
Clause is a charade perpetrated by parents on children. Younger children are
more trusting and less skeptical.

Logical though the rational-capacity explanation for atheism is, it is not entirely satisfactory for different easons. Rational capacity does not always translate into religious skepticism, as noted for the distinguished scientists of past eras who were rabidly religious for the most part.
Similarly, in religious countries, people may well stop believing in Santa Clause when they grow up but still hang on to their religious belief system. So it takes more than skepticism to separate people from their religious faith.

Why do religious people trash some implausible beliefs but keep others. Perhaps they get something out of the beliefs they keep. Once a person grows up, their parents no longer shower them with gifts during the holiday season so that they have no particular reason to sustain their credulity concerning Santa Claus, although they do pass on the belief to children.

If religious beliefs do not yield tangible benefits for adults, they may yield emotional rewards. The emotive aspects of religious belief can persist despite development of improved reasoning ability. Religious beliefs
and rituals may continue to help adults to feel good. Belief and disbelief are more a matter of
feelings than of reason.

Why elevate the emotional aspects of religious belief over the cognitive, or intellectual ones? One possibility is that religion functions as a form of emotion focused coping. It provides a defense against life’s difficulties and disappointments.

The Emotional Hook

If religion is essentially a mechanism for dealing with unpleasant emotions, it is most useful whe disease-ravaged poverty-stricken
sub-Saharan Africa and least useful when the quality of life is good, as is true of godless Europe.

In less educated countries, the general standard of living is poor. There is a lot of chronic illness and early death. Infant and child mortality are high. The population is highly vulnerable to droughts, famines
and natural disasters. Most people find it miserably difficult to make living.Governments are weak and corrupt and ordinary people get pushed around by gangsters and warlords. Of course, there may also be little religious freedom so that if there are any agnostics they are forced to keep a low profile.

Lacking any objective solution for their many problems, residents of less developed countries turn to religion for answers. The
clearest evidence for this Is the fact that in poor countries where the standard of living is low virtually everyone sees religion as important in their lives.

As the standard of living improves, there are fewer unpleasant situations over which people have no control and therefore less of a market for religion. With improving quality of life in developed countries, the importance of religion declines. Looking into the future, this predicts a radual shrinking of religious belief as the standards of living around the globe continues to improve fueled by rapid economic development..

I find it funny because the stories of man turning his back on Christ in periods of comfort, stability and periods of intellectualism are as old as those told in OT. You make it sound like it’s a modern phenomena. Maybe you would do well to read the writings of Thomas Aquinas, or even GK Chesterton to round out your diet. You might actually be surprised to learn that there are a great number of true objective intellectuals who embrace Christ’s love.

romo1900

A thousand years ago was a different time. Even 100 years ago is a different time.

St. Augustine lived over a thousand years ago. He did not have the data that we have today, If he did, he would probably renounced Catholicism
as so many have done today. It is always dangerous to use someone who lived so
long who accepted one belief and assume that if he is living today, he would believe in the same thing.

A thousand years ago or even 100 years ago, it was a different World. A thousand years ago, there was NO EVOUTION. Even 100 years ago, there were NO Skeptics. like Bart D, Ehrman and his
numerous books (translated into 27 languages) attacking the Validity of the Bible. There are NO Robert M Price, Bishop Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris, with their numerous BEST SELLERS NON BELIEVER books.

According to Richard Dawkins, “We are all atheists about most
of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.”

Catholicism is DECLINING ALL OVER, with the only exception of Backward Africa.

However, once Africa catches up with the rest of the World, It will abandon Catholicism like the rest of the World.

—————–

Again, if St. Augustine and GK Chesterton were living today, they would probably REJECT Catholicism TOTALLY.

Once they read all those Ideas and Writings of Contemporary Non Believers, they would realize how DUMB and Illogical those Catholic Ideas are!

——————————-

St JD George

Sorry you have so much angst in your life, I wish you all the best navigating it to the end of your last breath. It’s clear you aren’t fully developed yet but there is always reason to have hope for lost souls. I’m glad you have the comfort of your mind to satisfy you in the meantime. Someday you might come to be honest with yourself and acknowledge the limits of your mind. In the mean time, do not be afraid, and good luck and God bless you.

St JD George

Your journey sounds not too different than my own Romo, at least in the doubting sense. It makes me laugh to read about the faith placed in pseudo intellectualism and education. The first wrung on the ladder fools take in believing in their own self determination and away from the comfort of Christ. You have yet to get to the fork in the road where you must make a choice for eternity, I pray for you it is not a moment of cataclysm. The good news for you is that your creator is both patient and forgiving because he ultimately wants you to chose wisely of your own accord to be in a loving relationship with him. I know it’s hard to accept the finite nature of your being and knowledge, but it is a gift of life.

romo1900

NONSENSE!! There is NO Personal Relationship with god or Christ. You NEVER
had a personal Relationship with Christ.

You are using Christ as an “Imaginary” Friend.

Most of us had an imaginary friend when we were growing up. It makes life less lonely.

However, in the back of our minds, we knew that it was Imaginary and so
after a while we outgrew this Imaginary Friend.

However, in your case you used Christ as an Imaginary Friend, so you NEVER outgrew him.

However, NOW you must remind yourself that Christ is NOT real and only
imaginary.

Again, this Christ is Imaginary only and is NOT REAL.

—————

romo1900

I just wonder if you even realize how much problems the Catholic Church has??

I think that the Catholic Church is perfectly aware of their problems, but is helpless in being able to do anything about it. IN fact, the Catholic Church has TONS and TONS of problems.

Here is just one of their problems.

Did you read? 2/3 (two thirds) of Catholics give up their Faith.

Why??? If Catholicism is so true, why do so many Catholic GIVE UP their FAITH????

Again, I ask you the SAME QUESTION?? Why do TWO THIRDS Catholics give up their Faith if Catholicism is so TRUE???????

Maybe the reason is that Catholicism is NOT TRUE, but is FALSE and people realize it!!

Read below:

———————-

I got this from the Internet under “PEW Research Centrum Forum on Religious & Public Life” ……………………..

APRIL 27, 2009

Faith in Flux

Revised February 2011*

———————-

The reasons people give for changing their religion – or leaving religion altogether – differ widely depending on the origin and destination of the convert. The group that has grown the most in recent years due to religious change is the unaffiliated population.

Two-thirds of former Catholics who have become unaffiliated and half of former Protestants who have become unaffiliated say they left their childhood faith because they stopped believing in its teachings, and roughly four-in-ten say they became unaffiliated because they do not believe in God or
the teachings of most religions. ……………..Catholicism has suffered the greatest net
loss in the process of religious change. Many people who leave the Catholic Church do so for religious reasons; two-thirds of former Catholics who have become unaffiliated say they left the Catholic faith because they stopped believing in its teachings, as do half of former Catholics who are now Protestant. Fewer
than three-in-ten former Catholics, however, say the clergy sexual abuse scandal factored into their decision to leave Catholicism………….

—————————

Again, did you read? 2/3 (two thirds) of Catholics give up their Faith.

Why??? If Catholicism is so true, why do so many Catholic GIVE UP their FAITH????

Again, I ask you the SAME QUESTION?? Why do TWO THIRDS Catholics give up their Faith if Catholicism is so TRUE???????

Maybe the reason is that Catholicism is NOT TRUE, but is FALSE and people realize it!!

——————

And this is JUST THE TIP of the Iceberg!! The Catholic Chhurch is losing adherents in South America, Europe, and the rest of the World. They are Declining almost all over the world.

The only place that they made any gains in the World is in Primitive Africa. But once those people acheived some education, wealth, stability, and sophistication, they will abandon the Catholic Church like the rest of the World is doing.

For example, Catholicism used to be 99% of Latin America, now their numbers are down to something like 60% and continuing to decline. Most the the people become Protestants, “Nones”, and even Non Believers, Atheists.

The same is true with Europe. The Ex- Catholics there become Unaffiliated, None, Non Believers, Atheists, Agnostics, Etc., Etc.

I went to the Catholic Church Websites about some of these Problems and do you know what the Catholic Website did? They NEVER even bother to give any good answers at all. They just deleted all my comments and CENSORED me.

In other words, they COVERED UP their problems and hid under their beds.

This is what they have gotten used to doing, just like all those Child Molestation cases around the World.

The Catholic Church don’t have Solutions to their numerous Problems except hiding under their beds.

———–

romo1900

It is easer to just give up the Catholic Church as MILLIONS AND MILLIONS have done.

Read below:

——————————-

Here is a list of other former Catholics/ Christians who also has abandoned thier Religion and and NOW Believed as I do.

We ALL thought Catholicism / Christianity would make us happier, but we NOW think otherwise.

—————————————-

Come join me. Here are a list of Celebrities who were raised Christians like myself and yourself and who now Believed as I do now.

I just wonder how many you recognize..

These are EX Christians who ABANDONED Christianity and the Bible as a COMPLETE FRAUD!!

—————————————–

Here are more Ex-Christians who also believe in similar beliefs. We were all Christians before and ALMOST ALL of us were RAISED as Christians. I got this list from the Internet.

The Ex-Christians are NOT just Bart D. Ehrman, Bishop John Spong, Robert M. Price, Earl Doherty, Dan Barker, but multitudes of others who have seen the light and REJECTED Christianity.

I have NOT even mentions the FAMOUS Atheists like John Allen Paulos, Jerry Coyne, Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Michael Newdow, Julia Sweeney and Christopher Hitchens.

The Atheist and the Materialist (those who have no need for gods and some who have no need for the supernatural)

And even then, that is only the TIP of the ICEBERG, as this is only a PARTIAL List.

Atheists/Agnostics/Nonbelievers maybe even the LARGEST Group of Categories in the World if China is included.

I saw a similar list about 5 years ago, and do you know that the size was only i/4 of what you see here? It shows how quickly our numbers have grown.

Come join us and be our PHILOSOPHICAL BROTHERS and SISTERS.

—————————————-

St JD George

Since you have great faith in your mind, ponder this thought. Most psychologists would rationalize the behavior you are exhibiting (coming to Crisis to dissent) as being defensive in nature, in the clinical realm of trying to justify what you don’t subconsciously believe. Despite your rebellious soul and mind I welcome you here though, I view the fact that you are here as reason for hope. You site facts and opinions as if they are original ideas but the struggle you have is timeless and eternal.

Since you appear to put your trust in science and don’t yet grasp the finite nature of your mind, start by having honest introspection asking yourself these questions. Despite all the wonderful things we have learned through high energy particle physics we will never know where matter came from, and each new particle we discover will never reveal what it itself is made from, the most basic building blocks. Despite our observation about an expanding universe (first made by a priest), we will never come to understand what happened before the singularity which has been ascribed the name “big bang”, itself compatible with the Genesis concept of creation . The human mind is not capable of understanding the infinite temporal and spatial dimensions of the universe, and for good reason. If science is your gospel, then why are old “indefensible theories” being discarded daily as new information comes to light and changes our way of thinking about things.

I smile Romo because I understand more about your rebellious soul than you probably do yourself, having had one myself. Which brings me back to my original discussion point, the fact that you are here is confirmation that you can not yet reconcile that which you can not touch, feel, see, smell and taste, but it is as real as your body and your world. Someday when you are ready to receive him, the Holy Spirit will come upon you and put your restless soul at peace.
Know ye not that God’s thoughts are not man’s thoughts, and God’s ways are not man’s ways. It is the mystery of faith, and God loves you even though you do not yet fully understand that love.

romo1900

Did you read? 2/3 (two thirds) of Catholics give up their Faith.

Why??? If Catholicism is so true, why do so many Catholic GIVE UP their FAITH????

Again, I ask you the SAME QUESTION?? Why do TWO THIRDS Catholics give up their Faith if Catholicism is so TRUE???????

Maybe the reason is that Catholicism is NOT TRUE, but is FALSE
and people realize it!!

Read below:

—————————————————————————-

I got this from the Internet under “PEW Research Centrum Forum
on Religious & Public Life” ……………………..

APRIL 27, 2009

Faith in Flux

Revised February 2011*

———————-The reasons people give for changing their
religion – or leaving religion altogether – differ widely depending on the origin and destination of the convert. The group that has grown the most in recent years due to religious change is the unaffiliated population.

Two-thirds of former Catholics who have become unaffiliated and
half of former Protestants who have become unaffiliated say they left their childhood faith because they stopped believing in its teachings, and roughly four-in-ten say they became unaffiliated because they do not believe in God or the teachings of most religions. ………………………………

———————Catholicism has suffered the greatest net
loss in the process of religious change. Many people who leave the Catholic Church do so for religious reasons; two-thirds of former Catholics who have become unaffiliated say they left the Catholic faith because they stopped believing in its teachings, as do half of former Catholics who are now Protestant. Fewer
than three-in-ten former Catholics, however, say the clergy sexual abuse scandal factored into their decision to leave Catholicism……………………………….

———————————————————-

Did you read? 2/3 (two thirds) of Catholics give up their Faith.

Why??? If Catholicism is so true, why do so many Catholic GIVE
UP their FAITH????

Again, I ask you the SAME QUESTION?? Why do TWO THIRDS Catholics give up their Faith if Catholicism is so TRUE???????

Maybe the reason is that Catholicism is NOT TRUE, but is FALSE
and people realize it!!

———————————————————-

St JD George

There might be other reasons too, like they never had abiding faith and were lulled by the false sense of security that the world is offering to them today. I know this will shock you too Romo, but I absolutely believe in Satan and his tentacles are everywhere in the world. He is the master of cunning, deceit and vanity, and knows well how to make you embrace decisions that you feel are your own with lies and obfuscation based on a little bit of “knowledge”. You know the old saying about being dangerous. Don’t be so bitter trying to prove in the material realm what you can not either. I don’t mock you because I have empathy for you and I well understand the finite cage your mind is trapped in. My prayer for you is that you find the way to unlock it and release your full potential before the end of your days. You do not yet have what those of us do who love Jesus Christ with all their hearts and souls. Someday maybe you will when your eyes and heart are open.

L

I grew up in California and whenever I go back to San Francisco bay area or Sacramento I too am left to agonize over how nonchalant the whole mood and setting is during a Mass in many a church there. When will all of this awful mess end?!? What will it take to allow men to be men as God wills it? I don’t miss California’s strange ways of neutering everyone and everything. Gorgeous geography but spiritually bankrupt in many parts.

Arlen

Next time in Sacramento, check out St. Stephen the First Martyr Parish.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————–

musicacre

No wonder so many people there, (in San Francisco) have joined the Moonies. They try in their weird way to replicate the awe, just not the truth in any way. There is gorgeous scenery in many other places; one need not go to Cailfornia.

Jacqueleen

I’m afraid that it will only get worse. Pope Benedict XVI tried to put reverence back into the Mass and Church by asking that the Tabernacle be moved back to the center of the altar and should be the focal point instead of hidden in another room or off to the side. Then, he asked that we get back to genuflecting in respect of Our Lord in the Tabernacle when entering a pew or passing by the Tabernacle. Then, he formed committees to better translate the liturgy. Then he asked that the “Amen” be prayed after the Our Father and that every head should bow at the name of Jesus. Also, the noise factor should be lessened and “no texting in church”. He also recommended that the “Peace of Christ” part of the Mass be eliminated or shortened to the person to the right or left…It has become overwhelming with noise which waters down the solemnity of the moment. However, not too many have listened or have adopted the reverence. What a shame that the author of life is so badly treated!

hombre111

Simple question: How many of your kids became priests or nuns? Up to somebody else, was it? Blame it on the parish, but something else is going on. That said, abut 1/3 of the people attending daily Mass in this parish are men. And, oh. There are seven Masses in this parish. Several of them are full. The 12:00 Spanish Mass in this big new church has people standing all around the back.

You have to go to confession if you missed Mass on Sunday? Let’s recall the old Baltimore Catechism definition of a mortal sin. 1) Serious matter. 2) Full knowledge that this action will separate you from God and your brothers and sisters. 3) With full knowledge, you give full consent and accept hell as a consequence. Holy Moley, Batman, how many people do two and three? Especially three? Trivializing mortal sin does not make the world a happier place.

GG

How many? Most.

Fargo106

Sounds like you are picking a fight with someone who has genuine, sincere concerns about what she has witnessed at Mass. Why? What’s the point? What do you hope to accomplish with sarcasm and mean-spiritedness?
What does how many of her children went into religious life have to do with anything? That is completely irrelevant and proves nothing — she could comply with every criteria you think she should to produce children who take up a vocation, but if they are not truly called by God, then none will take up a vocation… it’s not about whose responsibility she thinks it is; it’s about being called.

hombre111

I think Nel was the one who was sarcastic and mean spirited. I asked her how many of her own children became priests/religious because a lot of research shows that the person who seems to play the largest role in priestly vocations is the mother! Somehow that worked well in my family. My mother never pushed me to be a priest, but she supported me in a really strong way. I would also mention two other factors that I have observed in myself and some of my brother priests. 1) Strangely, a lot of us come from really disfunctional families. 2) No priest took me aside and said, “I think you should be a priest.” But I did see strong examples of love and generosity in the strong example of priests I knew, and they gave me the time of day. Today, in the middle of the vocation crisis, no priest would dare do this. By the time I was nine, I knew that I wanted to be a priest.

Ethan

People in helping professions have often experienced hurt and want to help others. I thinks this is why so many of them come from dysfunctional families. Congratulations on your choice of profession.

wow…I love this site…using words to describe his Holiness like..’shooting from the hip’ almost got me banned from Cath. Answers forum…I was put on double secret probation….i Loved the article above by Anthony Esolen….wow…he described everything frighteningly to a proverbial “T”..last few times I have been to confession had the Priest tell me that what I was confessiong was not a sin…wow…

hombre111

It is fun. I can comment on the liberal sites, but it is more fun to comment on sites where most do not agree with me.

Fargo106

First, thank you very much for answering the call to your vocation and for your ongoing commitment to it. I have no illusions about the importance of priests… without them, we have no church, period, end of story. So, I am incredibly grateful for your service.
Secondly, I guess the emotion of the written word can sometimes be difficult to discern, but I honestly thought Nel was distressed and concerned. Perhaps others, like you, read it differently.
Third, is 1/3 of those in attendance at Mass being men a good thing? I couldn’t tell if it was or not. To my way of think and my way of doing math, we need to do better… that means there are twice as many women as men. No doubt, we men out here need to do better at providing a good example for our children and for other men who’ve drifted away from the faith.
Lastly, I think we can all agree there is work to be done to address the priest shortage and that all of us, men, women, laity, and religious have a part to play.

hombre111

Thanks. Over the long years, by my lonely observation, the vast majority of people who attend weekday Mass are women. 1/3 is actually a higher than usual number.

I did find Nel’s long complaint extremely insulting. Most of the priests I know are trying as hard as they can to serve their people. They do it differently, according to their personalities, their understanding of theology, especially ecclesiology, and within the realities of each individual parish. When I was a young priest, I arrogantly wanted those old geezers to get out of the way so we could solve all the problems with our Vatican II view. Well, they got out of the way and I found myself face to face with the problems that proved more difficult than I had imagined: Reaching the youth, religious education for the children, trying to help families, ministering to the sick, sacramental preparation, and on and on. And in the middle of it all, served by my weakest talent, the endless requirements of administration with a staff, and the struggle to make financial ends meet.

Along the way, I began to realize that, among the priests, there was a lot of disagreement about ecclesiology, how to apply love and mercy to the weak and fallen, the larger requirements of the bishop and his office, how to cooperate with other parishes, and etc.. And then in the middle of this, the vocation crisis, with fewer and fewer of us doing more and more. Finally, I was pastor of three different parishes sixty miles apart. Whew, what a burden.

Then along came the John Paul II priests who wanted me to get the heck out of the way, along with the other Vat. II guys. Well, we did. And now they are going through the same struggles we had to go through, and not a whole lot more successful. The vocation crisis has gotten worse. The Vat II priests are not doing as well on vocations as we did. (We have nine seminarians, from a high of about thirty).

Anyway, the laity do have a larger and larger role to play, and I am amazed at the way they step in. Now, in my old age, I get to be the senior priest who shows up at the office once in a while, prepares some classes, works with several parish groups, celebrates some Masses, ministers to the sick. I like to agitate on Crisis once in a while, but in general, I am content.

In my observation at weekday mass around 6:00, most attendants are men; around 8:00, women; around noon, women; around 18:00, balanced. What a mystery! What on earth could these men occupy themselves with between 7:00 and 17:00 that many women don’t?

hombre111

Most of my life as a priest, I have worked with farmers, ranchers, and loggers in small and medium sized parishes. So, only one daily Mass. The women and men were usually older. The other men and women were at work.

Athelstane

Over the long years, by my lonely observation, the vast majority of people who attend weekday Mass are women.

I think for the typical parish, that’s my experience as well – though it does depend on what time the Mass is scheduled for.

Many of them became pastors of large parishes with only five or six years experience. They have a steep learning curve. The vocation crisis has gotten worse.

Your last sentence gives the explanation for the former – the collapse in priestly vocations over the last fifty years means that dioceses have little choice but to assign relatively young priests (and more of them) to serve as pastors. You work with what you have. And the bill is coming due now. If you are not facilitating vocations, you’re going to have this problem. And for many years, too many bishops, chanceries, parishes were either indifferent to this problem, didn’t understand the problem, or, in a smaller number of cases, actually didn’t want vocations.

hombre111

Thanks. I can’t speak for most dioceses, but for the last thirty years or so, my diocese has poured huge time, expense, and prayer into searching for vocations. Our best younger priests have been vocation directors. But the struggle goes on.

One thing that is not discussed, of course, is the fact that we are fishing in a small pool. In my family, there were seven kids. Two became diocesan priests, one became a Holy Cross Sister. But now, with only one or two or three kids, families are reluctant to let go of grand kids.

And this is because we are looking for vocations among unmarried young men, in college or just beyond, who are willing to forgo a family for the sake of the priesthood. After that, most men are married and we say they no longer have vocations. I cannot help but contrast this with the Protestant ministers who have been friends and colleagues over the years. Most of them discerned their vocations after they were married. And many were the children of ministers, who were often the children of ministers. Looking back, I cannot say they were holier than I was, or worked any harder than I did. It was tough on their families, but, as I said, several had a father who was a minister. Remember, at one time, a couple of popes were the sons of bishops.

Lisa Hurley

Wow – you’re a priest?

hombre111

Yep. Fifty years and counting. Enjoying myself more now than ever, because I no longer have to be an administrator. Still work in the parish, go to the penitentiary, and agitate :>) on Crisis.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

Except for a bit of glibness in the second to last sentence, this was an atypically factual and coherent post. I am tempted to wonder if the account was hacked and appropriated, but on the chance that the normal user of this account is unchanged, I would ask as a follow-up to tour last sentence

You mean like sodomy and contraception?

Sam Schmitt

A person does doesn’t need to be aware at the time that he is separating himself from God to commit a mortal sin, or want to do so. It is also not necessary that he consciously accept hell the moment he does it. It’s enough that he is willing to do a deed which he knows is, in fact, incompatible with a relationship with God.

GG

Thanks for interjecting authentic Catholic teaching into the discussion. Hombre is confused.

NickD

Hombre is often confused

Anita Justice

How do one get a nun pregnant?? DRESS HER UP AS A ALTER BOY!!!

hombre111

The moment of freedom is the moment a person performs the action, or fails to. A person can look back and say, Oh, I missed Mass on Sunday, it must have been a mortal sin. Or he can say, I missed Mass on Sunday because I was sick, because I was traveling, because I was tired, or because I just didn’t feel like it. Only not feeling like it approaches any kind of sin, but it lacks the depth of knowledge and freedom a mortal sin would require. Afterwards, he can say, “I should have gone to Mass.” But it is still not a mortal sin, unless he says, and I know it separates me from God and I deliberately choose this course. And I still think this is rare. One of the things that bothers me is adult Catholics who still think like moral children.

Athelstane

The Church has always taught that it is a mortal sin to miss Mass on a holy day of obligation, unless there are valid, “grave” reasons for doing so (there literally is none within reach, necessity to work, or you o a family member in your care is ill). Attending Mass on holy days of obligation is the first precept of the Church – and it is something we should want to do, joyfully.

Desire to avoid mortal sin – which you apparently do not believe exists! – is not scrupulosity, and you do the teaching of the Church grave disservice by suggesting as much. Excessive scrupulosity does exist, but what you are describing is not it.

Since he publicly promised to take leave us with an insult, I take his continued presence as a sign of dishonesty.

John200

Fits with his intellectual dishonesty. There is something wrong with Hombre111, I just thought I would be gracious and then we’ll see what comes….

OK, yes, I know what is 99% likely to come.

Anita Justice

“judge not, lest ye be judged”. LUCIFER’S THRONE WAS ERECTED INSIDE THE VATICAN!! (TRUTHLIVES) John, warn as many ‘believers’ as you can; THEY MUST KNOW THE TRUTH FOR IT SHALL SET THEM FREE!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLw3phPXGks

hombre111

Sorry. If what you are saying is true, how do you separate a venial sin from a mortal sin? In the traditional Church teaching so beloved on this site, we turn to the basic teaching of the Baltimore Catechism, which said: Serious Matter, full understanding, full consent. If one of these is missing, it is a venial sin. Not that I take venial sin lightly. I think it is responsible for most of the moral tragedy of this world.

Compare it with marriage. You can do many things that are incompatible with your relationship. You should not take these lightly, but hard words, lack of attention, selfish moments are against the relationship. Marriage counselors note that if these patterns are unchecked, they can break a marriage down. And yet, at the moment these actions happen, they are not deal breakers, like physical or severe mental cruelty, or adultery.

In the same way, venial sins go against our relationship with God or we could not call them sin. They can break us down. This opens us to the moment when we choose some kind of deal breaker between ourselves, God, and our neighbor.

Sam Schmitt

Full understanding and full consent do not (necessarily) mean that I have to intend to break off my relationship with God. I may simply intend to have a good time or get more sleep or whatever. The three things you listed from the catechism do not include intention. This is not the same as scrupulosity.

Your distinction reminds me of the “fundamental option” theory from the 1970s, which I thought was laid to rest a long time ago ….

You seem to be saying that missing mass is not really “serious matter” – it’s more like a “lack of attention” in a marriage rather than abuse or adultery. Yet the Church, with the authority of Christ, has said that it is serious. Of course one can have a good reason for not going, but this does not negate the objectively serious nature of the obligation.

hombre111

Actually, I think we agree. Attending Sunday Mass is always a serious matter. But like you said, more often than not, people do not attend Mass because they are doing something else, or want to get more sleep, or whatever. We are into the area of human weakness, not spiritual revolt, and I honestly think God is gentle with that.

I have had people confess missing Mass on Sunday because they were sick, because they forgot, because they were traveling and could not locate another church, because they were all tied up with family, and on and on. These are NOT mortal sins, but they often think they are. Usually, I just sigh and don’t say anything, because my sense is I am dealing with someone with a child’s conscience, and confession is no place to straighten that out.

Scrupulosity was a much more serious issue in the past, but I see it especially when people are agonizing over their sexual sins. When a basically good person is going to confession every other day, filled with stress and anguish, that person is in trouble. I see this a lot with young men and their struggles with masturbation. They are not mortal sinners. They are in an emotional/psychological/spiritual crisis and both their minds and freedom are seriously compromised. In this kind of situation, view the whole thing under the category of mortal sin is not very helpful.

Anita Justice

Religion is just a CRUTCH for LOSERS who can’t think for them selfs; DON’T BE A ‘LIMPING LOSER’!

I know it is true that when JFK came out so strongly about the Absolute Separation of Church and State, he ran the risk of the most vindictive empire in the world, the RC Church. If you think about it, the separation would mean that zillions and zillions would be lost to the Vatican… Even his own Irish would have hated him to the quick for such a revolutionary measure… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4pkUPNVm2s

John Fisher

That’s why he is saying missing deliberately Mass is a mortal sin.

So you will know it is Serious Matter, now you have full understanding, and if you don’t go without a good reason full consent.
What about going to Mass if it has doctrinal, liturgical abuses?

hombre111

It is still the sacrifice of the Mass. But most of the Masses that I know of demonstrate more the personality and foibles of the priest, more than doctrinal errors and liturgical abuses.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

——-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————–

TerrieMac

Hombre111 is correct! However, what is being dealt with is not just mortal sin, but also the culpability of mortal sin. That one is not fully culpable because one did not fully do # 2 or #3 does not mean it wasn’t a mortal sin, it means the sinner is not culpable or fully culpable of having committing mortal sin. There is a difference between mortal sin and culpability.

Lisa Hurley

I think it’s dangerous to make is seem it’s very hard to commit a mortal sin.

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

—

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

——————–

BXVI

You are right about people not encouraging vocations in their children. It is one thing to give one son to God when you had four others to give you grandchildren, but your only son? But people no longer have 4 or 5 sons; they have one or none. How sad is this? I will admit I never envisioned, considered, or proposed the priesthood for my only son when he was young. I’ve changed since then, and realize a priest would be the best possible thing he could be, but it’s too late for that now.

Athelstane

You have to go to confession if you missed Mass on Sunday?

Yes, actually, you do, unless there were circumstances preventing you from going. I confessed it the last time I missed one, several years ago.

Your framing of mortal sin is problematic. It would, in your scheme, be virtually impossible for anyone to ever commit a mortal sin.

Glenn M. Ricketts

My thoughts also. By those criteria, most murders wouldn’t qualify.

GaudeteMan

hombre111=dissident troll and Lord Have Mercy, a catholic priest. “There will come a time when men will not tolerate sound doctrine.”
He is the colossal ear tickler. Pray for him!

Anita Justice

GaudeteMan, WHO KNEW??? Ex-Jesuit priest Alberto Rivera revealed that JFK assassination was planned by the Jesuits of Rome who are beyond the Freemasons, CFR, TLC, knights of Molta, CIA! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4pkUPNVm2s

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

————————-

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

————-

hombre111

Excellent post. The decline of religion worldwide is proof that Catholics cannot dump the blame on Vatican II. There are wider reasons to consider. Among Catholics, the sex abuse crisis is surely one. But there is also the impact of secularism. Remember, along with the sex-abuse crisis, before the financial collapse in 2009, Ireland was wallowing in wealth, and if I remember correctly, the collapse in religion was already present. The seminaries were already empty. So, talk about the impact on capitalism, with its relentless drive to turn us into cogs in the economic system, consumers rather than persons.

I totally sympathize with you. Those of us who are trapped in dioceses where these kinds of abuses occur suffer greatly. The only redeeming feature of this is that we can offer it up for the conversion of priests and laity.

BXVI

Find a more traditional and reverent diocese. Quit supporting this nonsense.

Neihan

There are a few problems with that. One is that’s not always an option. I would, in a heart beat, do exactly that. Except that I don’t have the means to drive the four to seven hours to the closest “traditional and reverent parish” then drive the four to seven hours back.

So I content myself, for now, a different option. Maybe part of the problem is that many of us do find a more traditional and reverent parish, rather than staying. Maybe if more of us stayed, gave a parish our time and talents and took positions of authority we could begin changing things from within.

Though, to be perfectly honest, that is easy to say when one doesn’t have children. When faced with raising children in the Church I have to admit that I would rather move to a different diocese than take them to any of the parishes in my current one.

L

God bless you! When I think back on the long,long years that I attended Novus ordo Masses and felt so sick inside without knowing why, I feel for you. I truly do. It wasn’t until an FSSP priest almost died, made a miraculous recovery and I attended his first Mass afterwards that I felt a huge burden lift off my heart. Now I attend Latin Mass once a week and during the week, a local N.O. Mass. I can’t afford the gas for daily Latin Mass but I don’t want to miss out on the Holy Eucharist, and I think of what you have written when I attend.

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

–

This true around the World. Catholicism is DECLINING and DECLINING.

The Future is in Secularism and Non Belief!!!

———————–

St JD George

When I was living in the SF Bay area a few years ago I attended Mass at Our Lady of Peace Shrine in Santa Clara and enjoyed it. As a tall Caucasian in a mostly immigrant parish it was a curious experience, though the Mass was in English.
I sought this church out, but my experiences with CA are identical. I think the official state religion is Mother Earth, their idea of going to church is being outdoors on Sunday, and a hymn is anything Grateful Dead.

luvgabe

“my experiences with CA are identical. I think the official state religion is Mother Earth, their idea of going to church is being outdoors on Sunday, and a hymn is anything Grateful Dead.”

This is not my experience, and I live in the SF Bay Area. I’ve worshipped at many parishes: St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, St. Mary Magdalene, St. Theresa, St. Joseph Basilica, Holy Spirit, St. John the Baptist, St. Augustine, Christ the Light. I have NEVER witnessed a parish singing the Grateful Dead or any songs other than sacred hymns. I have NEVER witnessed a parish going Gaia, worshipping Mother Earth.

How very Catholic and loving and holy of you to bash all Catholic parishes in not just the Bay Area but all of California. And to think you actually call yourself St JD George. /sarc

St JD George

God bless you. You will kindly note that I prefaced my reply with my experiences which is hardly a reflection of a universal experience. Of course there are and I’m am ever thankful for people like you who are a shining light for others. There were also clearly many loving people I encountered at the Shrine I attended in Santa Clara while there.
Still, relative to experiences at home, I would say that statistically there seem to many more Californians who are self absorbed than there are absorbed in Christ.

Chris

Just go to the local Tridentine Mass or a Marion Rite, byzantine Rite Mass, then you should have sacred experience. The Rite isn’t everthing, but obedience to the Rubrics is…

Jennifer Prestash

Byzantine Catholics have gone politically correct. At least the Ruthenians in America. In 2007 they prohibited the normative form of the Byzantine Liturgy and mandated what amounts to a permanent Low Mass. And they used gender neutral language. Christ doe not love “mankind” but “all of us” gathered here. A lot of people have left and find the new Roman Mass translation to be much more orthodox. Shame because the real Byzantine liturgy is beautiful.

Tony

Dear Jennifer — do the Ruthenians use the missal put out by Baronius Press? I know that that missal does not use neutered language. I am sorry, though, to hear that ….

Maggie

The edition of the Divine Liturgy with propers and commons was prepared for use in the Byzantine Ruthenian Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh by the Intereparchial Liturgical Commission and Intereparchial Music Commission. The text was translated from the Greek original, compared with Church Slavonic. The translation sought to be consistent in rendering biblical and technical terms, faithful to the vocabulary and thought of the text’s original context in the patristic period, but also accessible to the contemporary American congregation. In a few instances, textual criticism based on the witness of manuscripts guided the translation. The translations of biblical quotes and allusions required fresh translations to capture the distinctive readings of the Septuagint Old Testament and to accommodate the new context of these biblical texts in the Liturgy. In general, translations of biblical quotes comes from the NAB Bible 1970-1991 and The Psalms (The Grail, 1963). The musical settings are based on Ruthenian tradition that has been handed down from one generation to another. After extensive research, discussion, and detailed comparisons of various written and oral sources, the Intereparchial Music Commission compiled the plainchant settings. The musical renderings of historic, scholars have been carefully adapted to accommodate the new English translation provided by that Commission. I happen to go to a beautiful Byzantine Catholic Church and to be very honest, love everything about it. The Liturgy is heavenly as are the other services as well. And there are no abuses either. I would strongly suggest checking Eastern Catholic Churches out and going to a Divine Liturgy. You just might find your heart and soul there.

Anita Justice

Jennifer, (rhymes with LUCCIFER!!!!) Have you ever been lied to? Millions have, trusting in “another Christ” to save them. The gospel for Roman Catholics. Is There Another Christ? http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0047/0047_01.asp Be ye not deceived! It is WRITTEN!

Nel — if you are ever in the upstate of SC, visit St Mary’s in Greenville. You will never want to leave the US again

Melinda

Oakland, CA, jutst moved from there. Try St. Margaret Mary’s. The priest who does the English Masses is Polish, the others are Latin Masses. I miss it terribly, wonderful parish with good strong priests and altar boys and men!

cronos

When in Sacramento go to St. Stephen the First Martyr Parish in South Sacramento. Two daily and three Sunday masses. Tridentine mass.
No women doing anything on the altar. An organ.

Dorothy

Very well expressed! I hope you write more. Pozdrawiam!

Terry Mushroom

I went to Poland a number of times during martial law. So many years later, I still vividly remember the Masses. They moved me very deeply.

I drove a van with donated clothes, chocolate, oranges and basic medical supplies to the boyhood parish of my crazy Polish friend. (We drove from England.) The lesson I learnt is that the most generous givers are always the poor.

After returning from Auschwitz-Birkenau with a Jewish friend, a Polish friend gave me a statue of Christ wearing the crown of thorns. She told me how, as a teenager, she and her family could smell the ovens.

She told me, “This is Poland. This is the Lord of history. Remember he has us in His care.” She had seen and suffered too much through the long years of Nazism and the craziness of Communism to be sentimentally pious.

Nagramos

Nel, I live in Brazil, my parish is in the hands of Polish priests for 31 years now. Yesterday we were chatting about faith in Poland. Your impressions are true, but also in Poland faith is not what it used to be, according to what I hear from them. Far from what we see all over Europe, but the secularized world has it rules and infinte strenght. Our congregation here are the Palotins named after their founder, Vincenzo Pallotti, don´t know if you are aware from them. PAX!

M

Nel, I think I would feel the same way you do if I had to attend a Mass given by Cardinal Burke. I don’t think I’m alone in being grateful that Pope Francis has made a public statement by confining him to a place where he can’t do much harm.

Lisa Hurley

Just…wow

Lisa Hurley

Nel, I am from Ireland, a traditional Catholic Country, but believe me, it is the same for me when I ever have to return home and go to my family’s parish. To be fair, it is worse in the U.S. where I live now, more so in the coastal areas but thankfully we live near a church where the Parish Priest allows the Latin Mass. I’ve been to Poland a couple of times. I’ve seen how people attend Mass and their reverence, (80 year old women kneeling on concrete floors), the breathtaking beauty of the churches and cathedrals – all of it imprinted onto my soul like a beautiful wound that has never healed. One day I hope to return again.

ubiPetrusEst

Yes, it’s bad in the US. Even people old enough to remember when silence was the rule in church chat with their friends–it’s so much more comfortable inside the church than outside or in the vestibule. One “charitable” friend literally startled me when she felt I needed a greeting; she placed her hand on my shoulder as I had my eyes closed and was praying after Mass. I guess she couldn’t read my body language!

romo1900

Religiosity Plummets In Ireland And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close.

But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought.

According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll — which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries — asked participants, “irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist.”

In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious — a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist.

The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes.

According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available.

The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a “notable decline in
religiosity” since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves Atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005.

Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition.

Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland’s religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it “the end of Catholic Ireland.”

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith.

For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been isleading.

“The word ‘religious’, if left
unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire — especially in the Irish context — where people prefer words such as ‘spiritual’. Being
‘religious’ is a very subjective measurement,” he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though “the traditional structures of “religion” [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of “faith” among the people.”

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.

“The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,” he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research — the company that conducted the Irish poll — told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland’s sharp decline in religiosity.

“Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period — that was massive,” she said. “Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer — at least at the beginning of that period.”

According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa — and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent),

Go in to almost any parish office and the entire administration is composed of women. The only man that works in the office is the priest and he’s liable to be effeminate and probably gay. No thanks. done with that garbage.

Bill Guentner

You wrote: “…the priest and he’s liable to be effeminate and probably gay. ” Why would you write this? Why make the assumption? What information do yo have to support this? None, whatsoever. Shame>

GG

I bet many faithful priests would agree with the author of this piece.

Anglicanæ

I can tell you my experience. *Most* of the churches I’ve visited are crawling with effeminate clergy. Effeminacy, while not of itself necessitates the disorder of same sex attraction, usually goes with it.

If a man acts like a woman in his mannerisms, I will take the safer route and keep my boys away from him on principle. Apart from the predatory risks, I don’t care to teach them that’s how men ought to act.

GG

Aquinas said effeminacy was a vice.

Joe in Ohio

I can’t say for sure, but the Mass I attended over Christmas in N.C. was presided over by a middle-aged effeminate priest. It was one of the most beautiful, spiritual Masses with an excellent homily. This man is a gift to his congregation (both English and Spanish). He prayed aloud reverently; he sang with everyone loudly; he met each and every one on the way out, eye to eye, clasping their hand and thanking them for worshiping with the congregation and wishing them a Merry Christmas. Effeminacy had nothing to do with whether the Mass is prayed, celebrated, offered, or not. Both servers were young ladies in cassocks, the Deacon was obviously a man, the choir was composed of men and women. The parish loves this MAN.

Anglicanæ

Effeminacy is a defect not a virtue. Do you think Jesus was effeminate? The Apostles? The Prophets? Or do you think they, warts and all (excluding our Lord), more likely modeled manhood? King David: more like a man or more like a woman? Samson? Moses?

The Church ought to be actively denying the priesthood to men who are palpably effeminate. It sends the wrong message, and I won’t have my children around such.

Bill Guentner

I find your comments repugnant.

Anglicanæ

Good. Truth has that effect.

Patrick

Since you are calling for disqualifying people from certain vocations for something, it might be helpful if you could provide a clear, unambiguous taxonomy of “palpably effeminate” so it could, even in theory, be made into policy.

How much of a lisp is so severe that you can be certain God did not call them to the priesthood, for instance?

What range of body mass index and how soft of features?

How does one distinguish a manly appreciation for the beauty of nature from an effeminate appreciation of it? Is it the particular plants or animals that the viewer finds aesthetic?

What pitch of speaking voice is beyond the pale?

I am not (merely) criticizing your position. These are also real, practical questions that would need to have answers to successfully implement the policy recommendation you made.

“Homosexuality is incompatible with the priestly vocation.” (Card. Ratzinger)

The reason, because “otherwise celibacy itself would lose its meaning as a renunciation”, can be extended to effeminacy, or other forms of latent homosexuality.

Patrick

The Catholic Church is big enough to have a place for all personality types, as Joe so aptly provided an example of. The vocation of the priesthood isn’t exclusively for big manly men, it’s for WHOMEVER IS CALLED TO IT, be they big, small, masculine, “effeminate,” loud, soft-spoken, good at singing or bad, and so on.

Effeminacy might be a defect, but so is baldness. So is having a grating voice. So is being unable to carry a tune. So is being ugly. So is liking wine just a little too much (even when care is taken not to drink to excess). Likewise with food. There are many traits that are distinctly less-than-perfect, but which are not, nor should they be, disqualifiers from the priesthood.

Those called to it are called, and if God chooses to call a man who can’t sing to a vocation that occasionally involves singing, I’m not going to grumble and moan about it, I’ll rejoice that he followed his calling despite it being embarrassing on occasion.

In the Diocese of Lincoln, with our success mentioned above, we don’t have a culture of discouraging certain personalities or whatever merely because some people take issue with them aesthetically. I would personally speculate that it’s part of why we’re successful. We don’t try to second guess God when he calls a man with lisp or slender physique. We don’t try to rule out sections of the population from having any real vocation, instead we help them to very carefully discern what their vocation truly is and help them to live it.

Anglicanæ

“Effeminacy might be a defect, but so is baldness.”

And with that comment you’ve rendered your argument trivial and wholly irrelevant. If you are wont to conflating effeminacy with tangential physiological idiosyncrasies which have no psychological or moral implications, then the exchange is dead from the get go.

Glenn M. Ricketts

I would like to see a few more priests who enjoy beer and will be eager to watch the Super Bowl next month.

Bottoms up! Then again, this can be done at any time, not only when games are on. We are Catholic, not Puritans.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Thank God for that. Cheers!

Rick

Many of the Apostles were fishermen with boats in the 1st century. These guys had to be physical specimans. Pulling in nets, rowing boats. Jesus was trained as a carpenter and above average hieght in his day. These were dudes. The Sanhedran sent a small army to gather up Jesus and Peter had a sword, we know there was at least one other sword in the group. DiVinci’s last supper sickens me, making John look like a woman, please!!! The kid probably looked like an all state middle weight wrestler. Most priest and bishops today couldn’t carry the apostle’s water.

Effeminate is not the same as feminine.
Feminists are not feminine either. I am not sure Cardinal Burke means the Mass has been made feminine. Lacy altar linens, candles, and flowers were present before all this happened.
Feminists are people who are vulgar and not reverent. Women who claim to be “oppressed” by the church and are angry at men in general are the ones who have made the mass into a mockery of what it should be.
We are called to serve the Lord. Men can serve the Lord. Women can serve the Lord. But we are different from one another. Not one is better than the other. Stomping around loudly and imposing your view on others does not make you a man, or like a man.

Bill Guentner

“Most” of the churches you visit are “crawling with effeminate clergy.” This statement leads me to believe you have an agenda which is not being presented here. I do not know what circles in which you travel, but they certainly are not mine. I have known only priests who are good solid men in my experience.

Anglicanæ

“This statement leads me to believe you have an agenda…”

Glad for you your experience has been great. Your cynicism about my “agenda” is your issue not mine. My quest to find the Roman Catholic Church as I’ve read about Her in antiquity and the best authors put me in contact with dozens of churches over the past 20 years. I’ve met some good, grave and serious priests. I also was struck with how often I encountered effeminate priests. It’s a fact of life. Sorry.

If you think for a moment there’s not a masculinity crisis in the RC communion, you’re blissfully ensconced and I wish you Godspeed.

Captain America

I think it’s possible to make a distinction between gay and effeminate. I think the priest is often in the middle of social relations of various kinds, and he tends to back away from being assertive, perhaps seeing his mission as one of leading others to the right answers or solutions.

That said, it’s always great to run into a priest who can put on a smile and put out a firm handshake!

anonymousse

I’m a relatively new, and casual, Catholic. I agree with everything Aglicanae said. I have no interest in attending a Mass with an effeminate priest, I have no interest in my son learning proper behavior from such an authority figure, and avoid it if it is the only way.

Fortunately for me, as a casual Catholic, with a priest of this type, I just don’t go. Its unfortunate. I’d be more of a Catholic if the Church were more Catholic, but we play with the cards we’re dealt, don’t we?

anonymousse

Anglicanæ

Unfortunately the Roman Catholic Church has been her own worst enemy. The allures of the world are always there — people will always leave for shallow reasons; but the corrosive theology/philosophy that has gained prominence since Vatican II has literally made the communion into a sieve gushing quicksilver, warranting no serious claims for staying.

Ethan

How can you say that about communion? The Eucharist is what draws most of us to Mass every week. The readings and the community contribute to the experience. “For where there are two or three of you gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them.” How could the presence of an altar girl ruin this experience?

Anglicanæ

Ethan, I’m not using “communion” as a term for the Lord’s Supper or Eucharist there. I mean the fellowship. Reread my post.

You ask, “How could the presence of an altar girl ruin this experience?”

The objective fact of the Eucharist is not altered by such indiscretions. The liturgical movement, however, is distracted by such things, just as a priest wearing shorts and an a Hawaiian shirt (but the stole is there!) is a distraction. You can “get away with it,” but it is an assault on the highest forms of worship due to a wretched philosophy that was allowed to run rampant by a bunch of leftist idealogues.

So the innocent little girl up there, through no fault of her own, is not what angers me: it’s the satanic egalitarianism behind that propelled her there by sinister theologians and clergy.

dbeierl

I’m one of the comparatively few people who has actually seen what could be compared to a sieve gushing quicksilver (in my case a laboratory sink trap containing several pounds, with a plumber sawing into the side. For a few seconds the whole world turned silver). It’s a remarkable image. But I’m having trouble fitting your meaning to it. Could you express this differently?

Anglicanæ

It was my desperate (and probably failed) attempt at mashing together imagery of something that could leak out quickly — I thought Mercury had that property. If the science doesn’t work, I retract the poorly constructed reference.

dbeierl

Oh, it’s fast. Density of thirteen and low viscosity, it came shooting out in a spray that went everywhere, overwhelming impression of light and silver everywhere. Truly the sight of a lifetime. About four pounds emptied through that little slit in a few seconds. The plumber was gobsmacked. I was entranced, and also thinking so *THAT* is where the missing mercury went from the Van Slyke apparatus! So not really apt for your purpose, but an amazing memory for anyone who has seen it.

Anglicanæ

Ha! Sounds fascinating. I’ve learned something today! Thank you.

dbeierl

You’re most welcome.

dbeierl

Industrial Hygiene department on the shipyard was after me for months after that…

mgardener

Then why did you choose the Catholic church?

anonymousse

I didn’t know the priesthood was as homosexual as it is.

anon

Glenn M. Ricketts

I understand, but could I suggest attending a anyway? Think of it as choosing the Truth, not human and unworthy priests. if you’re not familiar with this Latin phrase, Ex Opere Operato, check it out. It’s the point of what I’m saying here. Please, come on in. We’ll be here for you.

anonymousse

Thanks, Glenn. But frankly, the Catholic Church has been a bit of a disappointment (full, short story: family was Catholic, grandmother remained faithful, parental generation drifted, I was looking for my grandmother’s Church as I now raise kids).

Mass is, to be honest, boring*. The clergy is nothing to be respected (the issues discussed in this post are one aspect: an honest assessment of the clergy abuse scandal is another). Catholic parishes are, by and large, poor at creating community.
So what else is there?

I had thought the Catholic Church was Spencer Tracy, and the controversies (abuse scandal, liberalization of Church, etc) were anomalies. I have come to the opposite conclusion: the Church is as fallen as every other organization in our society (in essence, progressivisim is winning everywhere. the Jesuits and the Sisterhood are extreme evidence of this, but the main body of the Church has the same problems). That being the case, it serves no purpose. I’ll spend my Sunday’s doing other things.

I also get it: I’m ‘not ready’ for the Church, I’m the weak one, the Church is eternal and I shouldn’t judge it by its problems, blah blah. But be aware: I’m the kind of guy that the Church is going to have to win over if it has a future. Its not succeeding.

*I went to a rural, farm community protestant mass recently. It was what I was hoping for from the Church: a reading, an analysis of that reading, a discussion of how that reading is relevant-a virtual graduate seminar on a passage from the Bible. Not a paragraph from the old testament and a paragraph from the new (read by parishioners with no knowledge of what they were saying), followed by comfortable pablum from the priest, blissfully over in 55 minutes.

anonymousse

I also know that ‘good’ parishes exist: I lived near one recently. But, based on my experience, they are rare.

Glenn M. Ricketts

I agree with all of the defects to which you refer, and score them frequently, as any regular reader here will attest. I’ve stuck around, though because of the Truth, which I can’t walk away from. If it were simply a matter of the fidelity of clergy and religious, I’d have been lo-o-o-o-n-n-n-g gone. Ex Opera Operato, ans I said previously. Please, consider giving one of those “good parishes” near you a shot. God bless, in any case.

musicacre

Unfortunately, you have to search, if you want a good parish for your kids and yourself. There is a crises going on in the Church, possibly the largest in centuries according to some experts…so you must stubbornly decide to stick to the truth and find a parish that also does in every way. (Including appearances, intellectual respect, beauty, reverence, and only meat served up, not pablum. ) That could take a little effort, but better to find than to complain, as you know there are some out there. Which parent does not go the extra mile to find a good school for the kids, or team to be on! Or good music teacher? Aren’t their souls and the way they believe for the rest of their lives even more important? We found a Latin Mass one hour from where we live, and surprise, surprise! It’s the church we married in, long ago! It has a beautiful high altar, gorgeous angels (statues) bowing down in reverence, a rail, beautiful Gregorian singing, and such reverence during the entire mass I feel like I’m at Mass for the first time! Oh and it comes with a priest who is ex- military…and boy he doesn’t pull punches! I have never learned more about the faith than now, even though I’ve read Catholic books all my adult life and home school. (our six kids)

Easter Vigil? It’s like watching the (choreographed) funeral of another parish and congregation. This would be the Diocese of Oakland – a great Pope Francis appointment which these poor souls will have to live with for other a decade. Oh well, what’s a mother diocese here or there.

Elaine Steffek

The first great CRISIS article of 2015,
and certainly one that lives up to its name.
Thank you for defending Cardinal Burke
in such a glaringly illustrative way.
What a train wreck!

Guest

Thank you again!!! Your articles are always right on the spot. I could not agree more!!! I am in one of the largest, wealthiest parishes in my area and just before I joined they removed the communion rail, started having female altar servers, and watered down homilies. The Sacrament of Penance is offered only once a week for about 30 minutes, and one extra day at Christmas and Holy Week. No one says the Rosary (people comment about my holiness as I do before Sunday Mass quietly-not nicely), genuflection is a rarity, the Tabernacle remains in the Sanctuary (but I often expect to come to Mass and find it moved), the organists plays as though it was a concert. I only watched 25 seconds of the video and wonder how long it will be before this kind of “worship” comes to my Church. Oh and and in the almost 25 years in this Parish, there have been NO vocations! I have found a much more traditional Parish and am moving!! I just wish I had woke up sooner!

Dick Prudlo

Post Vat II in full flower. Nothing short of a complete return to tradition will stop the madness. The hippies will pass away, but their acolytes are waiting in the wings. This whole disgusting parade will not end soon, I fear.

samnigromd

The problem with women, especially current nuns, is that they turn out to be incredibly selfish…

the way boys now are treated in contrast to girls…just go check it out. There is an article, “What All Boys Need to Know About Feminists” in Social Justice Review May JUnd 1996 pp86+

FEMINISTS DESTROY EVERYTHING

By Samuel A. Nigro, MD July 2014

After watching the
same television ad several times, I concluded that it was the most
discriminatory thing I had ever seen, even worse than Donald Sterling’s
disgraceful comments about Blacks. It
was an ATT ad of a young saleswoman pitching four older executive women, each
of whom had a comment, while a wimpy dumb executive man at the periphery and
back of the group looks stupid, says nothing and then postures himself in
imitation of the women’s gestures. This
mockery of men is outrageous and much more elaborate than the N word or Sterling’s private mutterings. This thing is being shown many times daily
for months. Worst, the message conveyed
to boys is harmful and hateful. Those responsible
should be expelled from all advertising forever just as Sterling was from the National Basketball
Association.

As I reflected on this ad, several points about feminism
seemed evident:

1. Feminists are
frauds when they themselves use against men the very discrimination about which
they complain has been used against women (The same applies to all victimhood
wackos).

2. Feminists destroy
the family when they hit on married men.
In my youth, young women respected married women by never getting involved
with a married man: “He belongs to
her!” was the overt rule understood
by all and almost universally followed.
That a man is married is no longer respected as part of the female rights
of his wife.

3. Feminists have
adopted male sexuality incompetently–as one hears young women complain of
“rape” after placing themselves in flagrant copulation expected
situations but then feel guilty needing, once sober, to deny consent and reject
readily seen consequences not cared about when high or enjoying the excitement
of a copulation expected situation. In a
masturbatory culture with sexuality reduced to simple squirting and sliming any
way every way, feminists cannot complain when they place themselves where and
when it is expected and can easily happen.

4. Feminists have
destroyed the prime dictionary meaning of
female as “designating the sex that produces ova and bears
offspring” (For male, it is “designating the sex that fertilizes the
ovum and begets offspring.”). Thus,
the planetary and natural functioning of humans have been destroyed by
feminists.

5. Feminists openly
demean and dis-empower males beginning in grade schools as the special needs of
boys (because of their innate higher activity levels) are punished rather than
converted into intellectual pursuits.

6. Feminists consider
“family” to be a problem rather than the natural traditional solution
to incivility and lack of culture.

7. Feminists want the
natural traditional paternalism accompanying male strength and power to be
replaced by passive transfer of the same paternalistic power to women who do
not have to realize thankfully or even gratefully believe what they have
convinced men to do.

8. Feminists destroy
the right to childhood by imposing adult sexuality and violence onto children
so they do not learn positive life, sacrifice, virtue, love, humanity, peace,
freedom and death without fear (the Catholic Mass Mantra).

9. Feminists have
increased violence against women by ignoring the most common sites of such
violence: lesbian households.

10. Feminists have
become a genital cult, as party to the gay cult, which has de-natured “sex”
into a selfish masturbatory culture
deserving mockery, instead of love based sacredness in marriage offering
unity and reproduction in concert with Nature and Nature’s God.

11. Feminists have
destroyed marriage as the psycho-social pheromone for humans ever since we escaped
from biological pheromones which rule in nature for the rest of the animal
kingdom confining animals to sexual activity only between opposite sexed mature
members of the same species at time of likely reproduction.

12. Feminists have
become promoters of “evil is good” authority-obedience of Adolf
Eichmann well proven by Stanley Milgrim.

13. Feminists are
SELFISH SEXISTS and all the words imply.

Their outrageous ad
described above does and proves all this and it is not an isolated comment said
privately like Donald Sterling’s. It is
an ad run daily for months. It is
hateful, discriminatory, a public health hazard and against the law.

Do we need “research” to verify what we see with our eyes, and what is confirmed by every single culture that has ever existed on the earth? Argue honestly. Don’t duck. For example, if you believe that it is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT whether a diocese has an all-male or an all-female high school, genuinely Catholic, to nurture vocations to the priesthood or the religious life, say so, say it openly, and argue for your position.

Also, your “outing” of one of the posters above is despicable. It is the sin of detraction, and it is grave matter. Remove your comment before the moderator has to. Then please get yourself to the confessional. Don’t let any disgruntlement with me keep you from doing what would be good for you — pretend that I was just some random person mentioning it.

mgardener

In response to the first part of your post,
Your first sentence depends on how a person perceives an event, I can’t imagine every single culture would agree on anything.
I do not need you to tell me how to post. I am always honest and when I make an error I apologize. And yes, I believe in research based evidence when appropriate.

I find a lot of supposition on this site, women are the cause of the decline of the church, liberals, Vatican 2, not having Latin mass.
I suspect it is a combination of a lot of things.
But men are in charge of the church from the Pope down to the priests. If vocations are lacking, then I argue, look to the leadership, not the things that you do not like in the church.
There is my honest argument.
Now to the second part of your post.
It would be your responsibility to read a post thoroughly before making accusations
I was responding to the post above mine where an article was recommended, Feminists destroy everything.
It is an opinion piece, not factual and poorly written.
The author of the article was the one I “outed”, not the person posting on this site. The info about the MD was on google, he was selling drugs and was jailed.
Perhaps you should read a post thoroughly before making a vile accusation, accuse me of sinning, recommending a course of action and giving advice.

Tony

Madam — the author of this article is a college English professor, not a medical doctor. Your wording is ambiguous. It sounds as if you are accusing the author of selling drugs. I understand that you are accusing the poster above of selling drugs.

That is, as I said, the sin of detraction. It is grave matter. Detraction is not the same as slander. It is the exposing of your neighbor’s sins — you are not lying — in order to hurt him or his reputation. Now, since this man’s long-ago sins in one regard have nothing whatever to do with the question at hand, and since no one here need have heard about them, you are guilty of detraction. It is a sin against the eighth commandment, and, objectively speaking, it is mortal. Was it charitable in you to do that to him? You have helped to blacken his name. It is an ugly and directly personal deed. Go to confession and confess it.

The article does not say that feminists destroy everything. They do a great deal of harm, but much of the article has nothing at all to do with feminists or women generally. But if you make the liturgy effeminate, that alone will be sufficient to ensure that you won’t get vocations to the priesthood. It is not the ONLY thing that hurts. It does not destroy EVERYTHING. It is, however, SUFFICIENT to ensure that you will not see vocations reviving. So, if you are doing it, stop. Then start thinking: How can we ATTRACT young men AS men, to the priesthood?

Diane

Perhaps young men do not want to be celibate? Or would prefer to marry? Nobody has mentioned those possibilities, yet the feminization of the church is blamed. I for one was sick of the masculine church, did not feel included for most of my life.

I find your condemnation of my post beyond belief.
I stated facts. Read what that man wrote about women, yet because you agree with him, it’s Ok. I GOOGLEd the man’s name to see what he else he wrote, that is what I found. Deal with it.
It is Catholics like you who give Catholicism it’s bad name, judgemental, arrogant and more pious then anybody else.

Tony

Diane — Exactly who are you accusing of having sold drugs? If it is Anthony Esolen, you had better remove your comment right away, because Anthony Esolen is an English professor who has never been in court in his life. You have confused him with one of the posters above. If you mean Dr. Nigro, you are guilty of the grave sin of detraction. Now listen — IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE. Detraction is the sin of revealing TRUE and damaging things about other people, to hurt their reputation. That is what you have done here. It’s an evil thing. Remove the post, so that you can at least limit the damage you have done to the man. Or perhaps YOU would be happy if somebody revealed to the world some of the evil things you have done? We all have done evil things, because we are all sinners. Read the Catechism on detraction.

Young men have never “wanted” to be celibate. Yet many of them still desired to become priests, sacrificing their desire to marry. But no man is going to make that sacrifice if it means nothing. Here’s the deal. Do you want three times as many vocations to the priesthood as we have now, or not? If not, we have nothing to discuss.

samnigromd

What happened to me is irrelevant to the issue. About every month it seems, a person incarcerated for years is released after finally being found innocent. Thankfully, those who know me did not join the scribes, Pharisees, Herodians and Iagos of press, media and law in their disdain for truth and justice. And most also, thankfully, did not ignore the corporal works of mercy especially helping captives rehabilitate and others on the cross. What happened to me is an old story going way back. Regardless, the Mass should be more than what the feminists have contorted it to be which can harden the heart from the Mass Mantra of Life, Sacrifice, Virtue, Love, Humanity, Peace, Freedom and Death without Fear. If the metaphors in the Mass do not fit in with the Mantra, they are most likely selfish impositions.

Countryman

That may be true in some cases but for the most part that has not been my experience.

samnigromd

I am sure your are right…the nuns who raised me were the greatest women ever…

lifeknight

What the heck is this “book” that samnigromd is publishing on the Crisis blog? Can someone edit his posts?

Also, if not too horrified, can one walk out of those sham “Masses?” If enough people stood up (literally) then we wouldn’t continue with such trash in the liturgy……one would hope.

David Mayrose

I couldn’t agree more!

Rock St. Elvis

That video! How embarrassing.

justanotherlittlesoul

I couldn’t watch it all. It was like a bad episode of the original Star Trek — complete with the fake rocks and twinkling percussion. Groovy, man.

publiusnj

Like just about all other societal change in the US, this huge decline in vocations goes back to the 1960s. The Church entered the Sixties (and V2) confident and growing despite the continuing hostility toward anything Catholic by the US’s Protestant Establishment. John XXIII then called the Church to Renewal and an opennness to the Secular World. That didn’t sound like a terribly dangerous thing at the time. After all, uniquely in Modern History, Catholics headed up the US (JFK), Germany (Adenauer) and France (DeGaulle) at the time Vatican II was called and were more and more accepted throughout the dominant Western World. So, openness to the Spirit of the Age was safe.

Or so it seemed, until everything started going haywire with the Mid-Sixties (Assassination, the Beatles morphing into Acid Rock, riots against the War and by the Inner City, Summers of Love and total disrespect for any traditions). John XXIII was now dead and Paul VI was looking for a way to stay true to J23 while holding onto the Catholic Tradition. So he temporized (although he did hold the line on Humanae Vitae) and the Faithful were left with the V2 documents which said go along with the Age.

Unfortunately, the Age had gotten extremely negative and that has never changed despite the small snap back that Reagan brought. Of course, the divorced Reagan who had headed up California (that petrie dish for experiments in social change) did little more than give verbal support to traditional values. The lack of support for Tradition in modern society has a necessarily deleterious impact on the very embodiment of Tradition, the Catholic Church. And society answers the Church’s reminders of the virtues of Traditional values with a retort that the Church needs to get even more into the Spirit of the Age. And some priests welcome those chastisements from the dominant culture.

The biggest social change has been the breakdown of the family and of sex roles. Politicians can read the census reports as well as anyone else, and the data tell politicians to play to females. As a result, masculinity is being downplayed everywhere in modern society (hypocritically, though, the politicians make combat open to any woman who wants it but otherwise will draft only men).

All this change has left young men increasingly alienated from the society that is coming about. Even the Church, which is under repeated attack for restricting the priesthood to men, is trying to accommodate the spirit of the Age by opening any office iit can to women/girls. As a result, Church extraordinary minister jobs are becoming more and more “female jobs.” There seems to be a “Lturgical Gresham’s Law” taking effect that I have noticed in my own parish anyway. As women enter lector and EM and altar server roles, men cede the territory to them. In effect, if most “jobs” are filled by women or old men (the increasingly aged priests), Church really has little meaning to most men. That has to impact the vocations “market” as well.

samnigromd

I am not publishing anything …just pulling from my articles, usually written years ago in response to observations linked now to an article in Crisis. I write with too strong words I have been told…but the ideas are always faithful to the Church and address obvious problems. They require effort because they are not simple briefs. Sorry about that, but you might really read them instead of just dismiss. I would welcome corrective efforts for my “errors” rather than censorship or unintellectual rude dismissal…God bless anyway

Book Review of: Feminists Say the
Darndest Things

By Mike Adams, Penguin Press, 2007,
208 pages

This
book exposes “feminism” (and much more) for what it is. With this
book, you will no longer be left bewildered at those embarrassing contacts with
feminists rendering you speechless and intimidated. Feminists Say The Darndest Things vigorously exposes them
for what they are by a series of 61 humorous and pointed letters written to
feminists who interfered with his peace and tranquillity. By these letters, he
demonstrates

1. Modern feminism is not a political ideology or
philosophy. 2. Most feminists don’t want equality. 3. Feminists are academically
and personally dishonest. 4. Most feminists do not have a sense of humor. ; 5.
Abortion is the most important issue they care about. 6. Most feminists do not
care about racism. 7. Feminists generally lack the courage to act as
individuals. 8. When faced with uncertainty, feminists have less self-control
than hunters. 9. Feminists cannot grasp the importance of gradual
self-disclosure. 10. Feminists are sex-crazed and sponsor masturbation
workships on college campuses. 11. Feminists would rather solve a problem by
changing “society” than by changing their own behavior. 12. The four
most common words a feminist uses are “I,” “me,”
“my,” and “mine.” 13. Feminist positions on abortion and
capital punishment cannot be reconciled. 14. Feminists’ husbands are even more
irritating than feminists. 15. Feminists can’t face the reality of
“gender-ocide.” 16. It doesn’t take much intellectual firepower to
become a feminist scholar. 17. Feminists have an affinity for communism. 18.
Feminists are trying to destroy the American family. 19. Feminists are the
biggest censors on college campuses today. And: 20. Feminists frequently
confuse positive and inverse correlations. In other words, this book should be
required reading for all high school students at least. It will explain much;
relieve confusion; and provide examples of how to react to
“feminists.”

After
an intrigued and informed reading, I found myself reviewing my own unpublished
elaborations on feminism finding them confirming all Mike Adams discovered (I
will forward my essays to all requesting them from Sam@DocNigro.com). I will not try to duplicate Mike
Adams, but please read his book of 61 letters. I will try to extend what
professor Adams writes into a psychiatrist’s reaction as informed by the
“medical model” which is “clinically descriptive” and
totally secular without any legal or religious implications. That is, any one
may use these descriptions to discuss feminism in a secular sense as a psychological
disorder without fear of hate crime accusations or threats of “violation
of separation of church and state” or any other social-political effort to
silence secular speech or to deprive you of equal protection of the
Constitution. Basically, “feminism” is a disorder and/or a disease
state for which disability laws apply and I have a right to defend and
elaborate this secular way of thinking.

Thus,
“feminism as a disorder-disease state:

1.
Feminism is a psychopathic disease phenomenon only abnormal, like all diseases,
when obvious–that is, like diabetes, epilepsy and all other diseases, a person
can be considered “normal” except when the

disease
interferes with one’s adaptation to life such that others can tell one has the
disease.

2.
Feminism is a hate filled disorder based on being a traitor to one’s birth,
gender, rights of childhood, family, neighborhood, church and/or country.

3.
Feminism is selfish antisocialness taken to a self-destructive degree because
it is anti-self and anti-all-socially-associated-with the original self.

4.
Feminism is a suggestibility disease due to the press&media psychologically
kidnapping children in their own homes by providing emotional and seductive
advertising of junk items and junk ideas.

5.
Feminism is a suggestibility disease of educators providing an anti-biological,
anti-environmental sexualization to loss of personhood beyond biology.

6.
Feminism is disorder of evil as it promotes non-being
in its disregard for Truth, Oneness, Good and Beauty.

7.
Feminism is an obsessional vaginal disorder functionally denying the stenchful
vagina has urine in front of it; feces behind it; and is often filled with foul
blood almost 1/4 of the time. To socialize the vagina (as feminism does) as
anything other than a biological reproductive organ is not only pornographic
but psychopathic.

8.
Feminism is a simplistic pathological imitation of dirtyminded school boys
and/or a caracature of homosexual men.

9.
Feminism is a disorder of compulsive penis envy to the degree of wanting to
treat the clitoris like the penis it could have developed to be–thus
masturbation (squirting for males and pretend squirting-sliming for females by
stimulating the clitoris as if it was a penis) in all non-reproductive forms
becomes a replacement for God. Few realize that atheism depends upon
anti-dys/socialized (anti-family, non-reproductive or “deviant”)
sexualization replacing the idea of God.

10.
Feminism is a hormonally based paramenstrual dysphoric disorder
(“PMS”) 24/365 per year. And the world is helpless to do anything
about it except to walk away and find something better to do.

12. Feminism is not only a pagan but a prehistoric
primitive anti-intellectual disorder because of its pro-abortion impositions in
these days of nanotechnology, microsurgery, miniature tools, molecular
identification and chemical alterations such that a microscopic human DNA
creature in a universal stage of human development is not allowed to have its
destiny.

13. Feminism as a disorder wants and demands
subliminal to overt special treatment from men; denies such is the case; and
then promotes the carrying on in a loud poor-us crybaby temper tantrum routine
until the special treatment is provided because they are
supposedly “women.”

14. Feminism is a disorder based on a transorbital
inkelectronocelluloid lobotomy epidemic due to unrecognized government of, by,
and for the liberal press and media, which has turned the First Amendment into
the allowing of “editors’ free speech” only. Basically, the unequal
application of the First Amendment has made “feminism” to be a
contagious disease.

15. Feminism as a disease imposed as
“normal” will lead to the “marriage” potential for animals
and inanimate objects. Actually, with today’s trends, there is no reason one
cannot marry one’s pet (or pets) or one’s mirror.

16. Feminism is a harrassment disease of crying
“harrassment” while harrassing everyone every one considered
different or not in agreement in belief.

17. Feminism is a non-being creation disease as it
fabricates and promotes hoaxes for “poor us” victimhood
propaganda–(And all hoaxes should
be punished by law with the maximum punishment allowed given to the hoaxer
because the hoaxer actually did do what was portrayed and would have been
punished if done by a perpetrator rather than a hoaxer–This should be the
law–You hoax and you will get what you wanted to have happen to another–Nothing is more fair than
that, and it is called “Empathic Justice in your face”!).

18. Feminism is a disease of tendered hate-crime
illusions as feminists act out hate-crimes themselves (usually by
“strawman” agruing) whenever they claim a hate-crime was committed
against them.

19. Feminism is an emotional disease of personal
“feelings” achieving a totalitarian status in the total rejection and
ignoring that others may have different “feelings” deserving equal
status if “feelings” rather than “facts” are being
considered.

20. Feminism is an anti-environmental disease in its
self exclusion from planetary evolution, its overt deviance from animal kingdom
sexuality, and its dehumanizing despiritualization of other human DNA
creatures.

In closing, let it be known that all the preceeding
is true not only for “feminism” but also if the reader replaces every
“feminism” with “homosexuality,”
“transgenderism,” and/or “liberalism.”

Crisiseditor

Just so you know, we don’t allow commenters publishing (or reprinting) their articles in the comment section, especially multiple articles in the same section that have no obvious connection to the subject of the article. The comment section is for comments. Linking to articles on other websites is permitted. Most websites have the same policy.

That is what links are for. I know Sir Tim was likely an atheist or at least a Protestant, but he designed the Web like he did for a reason. Accounts at blogspot.Com are free, and the comments even integrate with disqus, just like here.

samnigromd

Ideas Mean: You
Are What You Think

(And Ideas Spiritualize and
Divinize the World)

By Samuel A. Nigro, M.D.

2517 Guilford Road/Cleveland
Heights, Ohio 44118

December,
2007

Ideas
and their significance cannot be denied.
Ideas exist only in man thus proving supernature i.e., escape
from and control of biology at one extreme and angels trying to return to God
at the other. Taken for granted because
everybody has them, ideas get little respect. But this must change because ideas
confer spirit and give direct evidence for God. Thomas Crean, O.P., in his outstanding book,
God Is No Delusion, says it best:

An idea, whatever it is, is
clearly something simple. It has no
size, shape or mass. It has no
constituent parts standing in spatial relation to its other parts. It can serve as a design for something
complex, but in its own nature it is free of the complexities that it
represents. How this is so is rather
mysterious to us. But no one can deny
that it is so (page 15).

Ideas are materially based
in and an accompaniment of the brain which not only has consciousness but
consciousness-of-consciousness (C2) not present in subhumans. C2 is the body-brain’s
contribution to the body-soul composite.
C2 enables the “I” of you and me to be aware of our
personhood with intellect and will, transcendental capacity and ideas,
all of which enable our souls to know, love and serve God and His creatures (or
do otherwise as the case may be). Without
C2 and its rational capacity for ideas, there is no above- or
meta- nature and, therefore, nature-only can and must be followed as is the
case for all subhuman creatures. In
contrast, by ideas because of C2, humans have a rational
intellect and free will to be metaphysically above nature, and there is no comparable
evidence for such in subhumans. By C2,
ideas reverberate in the human mind with their being of
spirit. To reflect deeply on ideas
is to muddle around and conclude that ideas are bewilderingly pure
spirit with a life of their own by words.
Again, there is no evidence of C2 being found in subhumans.

The
reality of an idea forces the recognition of an incorporeal existence
neither physical nor measurable by mathematics.
Ideas prove a different dimension of existence. In fact, ideas make you what you
are. That is: You are what you think! Such is the spirit of life; and, logically
consistent with spirit, in the long run you will get what you think and do! That is, in the spirit world, that which one
allows by rational intellect and free will in one’s mind is that which one is
and will become (…and, self-determinately, will get!—which is another reason
to live the transcendental life).

Ideas
are God-like images within you. In my
book Happy Ending, I propose that words are angels, i.e., spirit
conveying messengers ranging from elementary objects of matter to the
transcendentals. And, like angels, words
just pop up into existence in different places without traveling through space;
the same for ideas too (This happens with some elementary particles in
physics, and thusly theologians preempted contemporary physicists by at least seven
centuries!). By angelic words, ideas
are made real as God-like linkages in the spirit world. Thus the spirit world spreads from the most
simplistic inanimate object to the mental world and the Divine … from simple
numbers to angels to The Word.
Supernatural spiritual transition especially occurs with the appearance
of word created ideas such as “love,” “person,” the
transcendentals, the virtues as well as other lesser ideas all of which
individually and collectively prove a metaphysical different level of existence
and a metanatural different level of the universe. Ideas mean that there is a spirit
existence.

One’s being (total existence including
spirit) is composed of one’s transcendental actuality—the seven components of
all created being in Addendum I.
The transcendentals are one’s actual primary being—all the rest
is secondary. One’s, and everyone’s, identified
matter flows on a transcendental conduit of truth, oneness, good, and beauty,
to and through eternity, perhaps “like music” is a good simile. This eternal permanence of one’s existence is
the promise of one’s immortal soul whose transcendental permanence is confluent
with one’s transcendental activity. This
is one’s spirit life and it has its own genealogy mediated by whatever the
brain has seen or heard as words, either demonic or angelic (This is why it is
important to protect at all times all brains from evil—“Garbage in, garbage
out!”). One’s brain is especially lit up
and one’s spirit is enhanced by anything which is transcendentally sound, i.e.
ideas regardless of content as long as true, one, good and beautiful. The transcendentals spiritualize ideas and
souls, but evil ideas destroy the brain and spirit. One’s soul (like a transcendental sponge) is
created immortal, but it can be annihilated by anti-transcendental acts, just
as it can be sustained and enhanced by the images of God within: truth, oneness, good and beauty. And it all happens by ideas and words. Furthermore, the transcendentals are the
basis for and essence of human subjectivity by which concepts (ideas)
are warmed with the Image of God, refired with Big Bang warmth most often by
the Word (Jesus) enabling all spirit computations between you and the Universe.

To deny spirit is to deny ideas; is to deny
that words exist; is to deny the impact of words in the world of ideas;
and is to deny a spirit world wherein anti-being demons (un- or
anti-transcendental words) try to run amuck while angels (transcendentally
intact words) promote being. The more
evil (pursuit of non-being) one does, the more one’s being is
annihilated. This is because evil is a supernature
negation of metastability, and evil exists in time for man only. For man, evil is a self-negating entropy
promoting vacuum. Therefore, the evil
one does converts one’s self into that black hole of self-annihilating negative
nothingness caused by oneself and relived by oneself over and over, most
commonly called hell. Oppositely, one’s
transcendental acts forge forever in eternity, carrying one’s own being
with these acts. As beautiful concert
music, reverberating forever throughout the space of the universe, one’s
transcendental acts will timelessly carry one to and throughout all eternity
(This is why we like music!). This is to
understand finally that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven” because nothing
evil or sinful will last in eternity.
This reminds of the ancient dictum of Socrates: “No evil can come to a good man
either in life or in afterdeath, and God does not neglect him” (I would extend this
to “No evil can come to a transcendental man (male or female)” and “By
their words, you shall know them.”).

The
significance of ideas cannot be underestimated: You are your ideas — which can
be non-being especially if one believes television, movies, internet,
newspapers and celebrities or non-persons (To understand “celebrities” and
“non-persons,” see Addendum III), and, needless to remind, the promotion of
non-being is evil (And Original Sin is “suggestibility”—see Addendum IV—promoted
epidemically by the metastasis of Patronizm—see Addendum V). The simplest understanding is that you are
promoting your own non-being when you break The Ten Commandments or act
contrary to Natural Law. But the
opposite is also true: Your ideas
can make you the best being filled with truth, oneness, good and beauty in a
confluence of transcendental existence into the level of spirit. Your ideas make you what you are—and
you can control them. And, furthermore,
to repeat and remind: what goes around,
comes around. Your intellect and free
will make it that way, and the ideas you put into action will determine
your eternal spirit existence — In other words, you will get what you do over
and over in Heaven, Purgatory or hell. In
your spirit life, what you have been and done will come back to you in a pop-up
spirit caricature of your ideas and action life with justice mirroring it all giving
it back to you as well deserved, blessing or punishment! (Dante has it right! And so does Plato with,
“Virtue is (and will be) its own reward” (and I add: “Evil will be its own punishment—just you wait!”)
and St. Thomas has it right when he says, “Do good and avoid evil” (or my
elaboration: “Do transcendentals and
avoid non-being.”).

Ideas
are Fire Forms (Read my poem “Fire Forms”) from the Big Bang mediated by words
(angels), transcendentalized (refired) by The Word (Jesus) which overcomes
matter to return being to God. No
matter how exciting or stimulating or suggested by celebrities, if your ideas
are not transcendental (true, one, good and beautiful), to hell with them
because that is where they will take you and you will not like reliving the
evil you have done turned back on yourself (As Jesus said, “Go and sin no more”…and
with good reason.).

Ideas are not merely confined
to you as an individual but must be socialized because man is by nature a
community creature optimally relating by dignity, unity, integrity, identity
and spirituality—five more angelic ideas defined in Addendum II. Without these angels, the transcendentals
remain selfishly individual.

In
closing, not to understand ideas is likely to fail the major personal
and only “evolution” that matters:
one’s personal spirit transcendental transition by the ideas one has
and acts upon. The reader is
encouraged to study http://www.theogeocalculus.com
(which I believe is the first ever linkage of elementary physics to the
transcendentals, to the variables of psychotherapy and mental succor, to the
sacraments, to the community universals, and to the virtues). The most effective way of transcendentally
processing ideas and feelings are in Addendum VI—Everyone is on the Cross in
one way or another at some time or another.

Any idea, regardless of
origin, which cannot be interpreted consistent with all the following addenda is
highly likely to be satanic. Keep true
to full being and strive to interpret and understand all in the way of ideas.

ADDENDUM
I: The Seven Transcendentals: (Full elaboration was first printed in my
pamphlet, “Male/Female Differences in Natural Law” of 1993 at the First Annual
Conference of Catholic Social Scientists.)

1.
Ens (Latin)—what has existence.

2.
Res (Latin)—which is the corporeal body, i.e. the
confluence of the being with matter completing it. It is the most visible dimension for those in
the material world. In nature, nature
rules, neurochemistry and all, on how the being manifests itself in nature. Bodies are needed to relate. They are our physical being by which men
interact with all. MATTER (male).

3.
Aliquid (Latin)—which is the identity or form of
the being, i.e. the confluence of the being with its essence—for humans,
not ethnicity, not color, nor anything but humanbeingness—the total embracing
of humanity for us—in a word “catholic”—all
for and with all. IDENTITY (female).

4.
Verum (Latin)—which is the truth of the being, i.e.
the confluence of the being with reality and not fantasy—or for us humans, the
confluence with real life and not television shows, movies, magazines,
newspapers or figments of imagination from oneself or others. TRUTH (male).

5.
Unum (Latin)—which is the oneness of the being, i.e.
the confluence of the being with itself and all desirability related to it: its
integrated, whole entirety. ONENESS
(female).

6.
Bonum (Latin)—which is the good of the being, i.e.
the confluence of the being with proper function in nature, or for mental
beings, with proper choice in Natural Law (or Rational Environmentalism). GOOD (male).

7.
Bella (Italian…preferred by the author to the Latin
“pulchritude” for multicultural reasons and the economy of two syllables)—which
is the beauty of the being, i.e. its confluence with ascendancy or the
“bringing out the best of itself and all around it. “ BEAUTY (female).

1.
DIGNITY: Man should always be respected as an
inviolable end and never used as a

means.

2.
UNITY: Man should be honored as a totum and whole
entity; and none of his parts should be treated in isolation of that whole
entity.

3.
INTEGRITY: Man’s moral good should be upheld and his
morality should never be divorced from his nature.

4.
IDENTITY: Man has identity both as a member of the
human race and as a unique individual and person; these identities should be
valued and allowed to develop and no attempt made to deform or radically alter
them.

5.
SPIRITUALITY: Man’s spiritual qualities should be affirmed,
and no attempt should be made to reduce man to his material components or to
limit man to what is merely natural.

Without the benefits that man stands to
gain through the application of these moral principles, there exists the imminent
danger of his falling victim to five forms of dissolution: (1) exploitation; (2) fragmentation; (3)
disintegration-demoralization; (4) dehumanization; and (5) despiritualization.

ADDENDUM
III: Celebrities and Non-Persons:

Celebrities are attention seeking
unhumble individuals who inflate themselves (This definition excludes those who
are celebrated because of their productive and/or self-sacrificing
accomplishments. In contrast celebrities
who selfishly seek and artificially promote themselves are basically fakes. It is their show-biz glitzy self-promotion fakery
which pleases or excites us preying on our suggestibility making us fools when
we believe them. They usually take hours
to be able to look the way they appear. Their
own extravagant relationships routinely fail proving they cannot stand each
other once they really get to know each other.
Their touted as spectacular actions, failing time after time, prove what
frauds they are. Celebrities can startle
us by their excitement frenzy, but they cannot even be happy with
themselves. That tells us
something: That what celebrities show us
is fakery, pure and simple, with rare exceptions. So do not spend your money or time believing
celebrities—who glorify each other as being great people and great couples, but
they usually are only great actors (which is non-being) and that is
usually all that they are! It is a waste
of time and energy (pollution!) to bother with them except for entertainment.

Non-persons are those unwilling to
protect all members of the human species from natural beginning to natural end
in the context of Natural Law. The most
common non-persons around are abortionists, those who misuse words, and those
who wear little to no clothes.
Basically, non-persons are those who reject Addenda I and II above. They have no dignity, unity, integrity,
identity or spirituality; they have no truth, no good, no oneness, and no
beauty. They talk dirty; tell lies; run
around without clothes; hurt others unnecessarily; degrade themselves; and
descend their beings to subhumaness. They deserve the respect they give
themselves…which is why “critical talk” is needed for those participating in deformed
subhuman sexuality.

ADDENDUM
IV: Original Sin is suggestibility. Brains are suggestible…they play and replay
what is seen and heard…like advertising, music, actions, words and ideas. Basically, if you see it or hear it, you will
likely do it (I was told that by Adam and Eve).
Thus, there should be Suggestibility Education Programs in every grade
which teach all that is in this article as well as other factual information to
discern the transcendental from the dross.
The specific messages about suggestibility are:

1.
Do not be so impressionable.

2.
Do not be so
gullible.

3.
Do not be a
“monkey see, monkey do copycat”—you are not a monkey.

4.
Celebrities are
fakes. It takes them hours to look like
that and they get paid to carry on like that.

5.
Believe nothing
on television, in movies, on the internet, in the newspapers without two
independent confirmations otherwise you will be buying junk stuff, junk food
and junk ideas.

6.
Do not believe or
do anything except what is true, one, good, and beautiful, not what otherwise
is usually done or believed by others.

7.
The spirit life
means that you are what you think…so think matter, identity, truth, oneness,
good, and beauty, and all will be well.

8.
In the long run,
you will get, for eternity in Heaven, Purgatory or hell, whatever you have
thought and done…so think and do what is true, one, good and beautiful.

Today, the practice (“charade” really) of
journalism is the patronizing of one group or another and the censoring of the
rest—thus “patronizm.” The most accurate
description of today’s press and media is:
Patronizm, not journalism.
Patronpaper, not newspaper.
Patron press, not free press.
Patronizer, neither journalist nor reporter. For those described, the First Amendment does
nothing but give them immunity to truth, justice, the common good and
trustworthiness. Most of today’s
“journalists” are self-promoting perverters of the First Amendment. Do not trust what you see or hear in the
press and media.

Ideas as promulgated by today’s
press and media are usually of the non-being kind and mainly provide only
vicarious living.

ADDENDUM
VI: Natural Law Processing of Ideas and
Feelings:

1.
by being baptized
as a dignified event and giving faith—“Woman behold thy son.”

2.
by being confessed
into a unified energy spectrum giving hope—“Father, forgive them for they know
not what they do.”

3.
by being holy
communioned into an integrated field giving charity—“Oh my God, why has
thou forsaken me?”

4.
by being confirmed
as an identifiable quantum giving prudence—“Into thine hands, I commend my
spirit.”

5.
by being extremely
unctioned as a spiritual singularity giving justice—“It is finished.”

6.
by being holy
ordered into dimensions giving courage—“This day thou shalt be with me in
paradise.”

7.
by being matrimonized
into the liberty of uncertainty giving temperance—“I thirst.”

8.
by being in transcendental
pursuit into the force of holiness giving grace—the earthquake.

Sacramentalized
ideas and feelings give the full use of one’s soul. All actions can be spiritualized by these
eight processes and the metaphors available from the Last Eight Words of Christ,
because all will be on the Cross at one time or another.

fredx2

Well, I guess that shows you guys who is boss.

Anne Hendershott

The video is hilarious. Thanks for publishing this!

St JD George

Hilarious is not the word that came to mind for me. I couldn’t finish it I was so distraught.

Anglicanæ

Every time I show my wife these videos, she wonders how safe it is to convert to Roman Catholicism. Our traditional Anglo-Catholic parishes are small in number, but they don’t countenance this stuff.

I reassure her there is a strong contingent of faithful, mindful, and deliberately orthodox Roman Catholics that will not bow to this.

Jamie

You’re wonderful, Tony. I was at daily mass yesterday, and I encountered my daily quandary. When I was a child, I was taught that whenever a priest opened the tabernacle, I was to fall to my knees and remain there until he closed and locked it. I was never taught what to do when the old ladies marched up to the tabernacle, (apparently they’ve been given a key), during the Our Father, rummage around in there as if they’re looking for the baking soda, then walk away with several containers for the Eucharistic ministers without closing the tabernacle. It stands open until Communion has been distributed. Childhood habits die so hard! But I think all these infractions stem from lack of belief in the Real Presence.

Bill Guentner

Everyone should know that only priests are permitted to open the tabernacle. The tabernacle represents the “Holy of Holies” in the Jerusalem Temple, into which one priest was chosen to enter only once a year. The entire structure of a church is to resemble the Temple. People should understand this and perhaps they would pay more attention to the liturgy.

RJ Marcantonio, PhD

I agree, Bill. One small point: The clergy consists of deacons, priests, and bishops. All of them can open the tabernacle.

musicacre

Wow, I didn’t know that. I grew up in the seventies. Maybe an article should be written about that.

Guest

In my Parish I have NEVER seen the Priest open or close the Tabernacle. It is always the Sacristan of the day..man or woman. You can forget about genuflecting; usually it some form of a bow and not an elegant bow. Is is documented somewhere that only a Priest can open/close the Tabernacle? I would like to point it out. Divorced and re-married, living with someone else; there seems to be no rules except all are welcome regardless; no Penance necessary. The Altar Servers have no clue about proper etiquette regarding the Tabernacle.

disqus_Qmc7pDyHTl

Yeah, I don’t get why a “profound” bow has seemed to replace genuflection.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Yes, especially since the GIRM specifies that the genuflection is rhe appropriate for m of reverence to the Tabernacle. It seems to be getting replaced with a slight nod of the head in some parishes near me.

Ruth Rocker

Well, it would help if all churches had the tabernacle in plain sight on the altar. My last church had it in a walled-off area completely out of view of the altar. Claimed it was to make it easier for adoration, but that was rarely well attended, either.

And a large part of this kind of abuse comes from people not REALLY believing that those little cookies are truly the Body of Christ!! That’s why it’s okay, after the consecration and the miracle of transubstantiation has occurred, to glad hand everyone around you during the odious sign of peace!

Ethan

Because women who look in cupboards can only be looking for baking soda? You could have criticized the practice without demeaning women?

Glenn M. Ricketts

I didn’t take him to say that. I think he was referring to the lack of reverence and decorum. If they had been men, there’d be nothing wring with using “tools” as the analogy, do you think?

Are you incapable of understanding that she was describing a certain utilitarian approach and that the description was a metaphor? People looking in cupboards are looking for commodities they need but owe no reverence or respect.

St JD George

I guess I’ve been blessed. Since I’ve come into the church I would say my two pastors are anything but effeminate and fairly bold. I know for a fact that that has caused some to leave the parish for speaking strongly on subjects like pro-life, but I think in total more have joined and stayed than left. I’s sure that’s an element that has drawn me to the church. Perhaps effeminate isn’t the right characterization though as there certainly are females who can speak with boldness and not just feel good mushiness. Personally I find it a characterization of liberalism, people who are so unsure of what they stand for that they stand for nothing really.
Perhaps it has to do with being more concerned with the length of one’s life than the fullness of that life.

zoltan

“Perhaps effeminate isn’t the right characterization though as there certainly are females who can speak with boldness and not just feel good mushiness.”

Such women would be feminine, not effeminate. I’m not sure women can even be effeminate. Effeminate describes a man who acts like a woman or a caricature of a woman.

St JD George

Thank you for the correction … my problem for speaking without my brain fully engaged.

Tony

I’ve sometimes said that effeminacy is to femininity as machismo is to masculinity. The old novelists and poets understood these things. Now you can’t even breathe them.

AcceptingReality

Anthony, sadly, this article rings true on a number of levels. I attend a parish in Florida where the pastor is himself very effeminate. He tried liturgical dancers when he first arrived but there must have been blow back because we haven’t seen them since he first came. Still there are all of the more subtle liturgical abuses. There is such an overemphasis on community, cantors who raise their hands, and a posse of altar servers, mostly girls. Almost no one kneels and prays before Mass. The invitation to “stand and greet” your neighbor has fostered a casualness that has led to a din of conversation before Mass that even the pastor takes part in. It’s very annoying. When you go to communion the pastor will say, “The Body of Christ, so and so.” Using your name. I think this turns attention away from Our Lord. And woe to those who question him or any of the modernist nonsense that masquerades as Catholicism. He will shun you and build homilies around something you said or did. My heart breaks sometimes and I go to Mass with the constant vigilant concern over what liturgical abuses or insults to authentic Catholics might come out from the pulpit. For our pastor, Christ was and is all about hospitality and being welcoming, unless of course you’re devout and pious or conservative in your political views.

Captain America

that parish sounds like it’s in sad shape.

Romulus

Most of Florida is in sad shape.

GG

Excellent article as always. You have put into words what so many experience and think. Now, if only our Pope would read it too.

Angela Stiens

Professor Esolen, as always you are spot on!! Amen!

Vinny

Anybody see the movie, “St. Vincent?” “Be nice,” said Jesus, “even as your Uncle Ronnie was nice,” your divorced Uncle Ronnie who lived with his girl friend, but was good to dogs and small children that were not his to take care of.”

Vinny

Has happened to me several times – “In fact, give the penitent the impression that he can go on and commit the same sin with impunity.”

Vinny

Question for the author – Why Lincoln, NE????? Not just what they do or don’t do, why there?

zoltan

It might be because they both have a lot of seminarians and are a bastion of orthodoxy.

I live in a city that produces more priests annually than the entire USA. Mass in the US when I return is barely recognizable. There are some rare parishes holding to a few remnants of past orthodoxy I hear but I have not seen or attended one in over ten years. Your check list must be used by most parishes in the US. No men allowed.

zoltan

I see in your profile you are in Colombia. What is the Mass like there?

If you ever lived in a 98% Catholic town in the US in the fifties … there is no prostestant context to battle, compare and compete with. The culture is Catholic, in background conversations, public holidays and weekends… Sunday Mass is ‘celebrated’ in hotels, malls, at sporting events from 6pm Saturday until 6pm Sunday and at every church, seminary, catholic school and convent. The US is protestant first, last and all ways. Catholics appear to have given up creating a culture any different the book believers in the USA.

Anglicanæ

The US isn’t even Protestant anymore. It’s just anti-catholic.

Athelstane

It’s post-Protestant. As it happens, that works out to be rather anti-Catholic, among other things.

zoltan

That sounds really nice. I live in Houston, where there are a lot of Catholics, so it’s a good feeling to meet someone else who is, but I don’t have the experience you’re talking about. I was born in the eighties and I’m a really new Catholic (to be confirmed at Easter).

Tony

zoltan — Do you know about Our Lady of Walsingham, in Houston? I believe it’s an Anglican-use Catholic community.

zoltan

I’ve heard of it and I’ve been meaning to go, though it’s a bit far (Houston is a massive city). I attend the Traditional Rite parish.

Having moved recently to a suburban parish (not that most city parishes are any better) I must conclude that this sort of macabre nonsense explains why this archdiocese (New York) is falling apart, despite growth in this area in every other aspect – demographically, financially, culturally. So much of it remains mired in the 1970’s. Rare, if almost non-existent, are the bright young men going to seminary. But no one dare mention it – all you’d get is jokes from the altar and “Nothing to see here – just move along.”

St JD George

Not at all disagreeing with you on this being a universal prayer, but I thought I’d share with you that when I was ATL I was surprised to read the archdiocesan news and see how many students were entering the seminary from Georgia Tech. I realize that the numbers are still way down from what they once were, but a bottom seemed to have been reached and the numbers were slowly climbing. Quite a few actually seemed to come from impressive educational backgrounds. Whether that translates into being good priests, only time will tell.

Seamrog

There was a traditional, conservative chaplain at the Catholic Center at GT for many years.

Gentle, loving, and manly.

There were also female vocations from GT.

St JD George

Father Tim?

Seamrog

Fr. Mario DiLella, OFM

Almost 40 years as chaplain

St JD George

I didn’t think we were talking about the same priest based on your comment “many”. Father Tim was only there for a few years, and recently. I know he helped my son a great deal in navigating through some difficulties while there.

Seamrog

Fr. Tim is a good man and a faithful priest – he is now vocations director for the Archdiocese

St JD George

Yeah, I noted him in the Archdiocesan news standing with the young seminarians. I met him too attending Mass on campus from time to time and really liked him.

jlli

I went to a Mass @ St Pat’s where the deacon[?] reverently approached and knelt down before the celebrant with the book of the gospels for a blessing prior to the reading. The celebrant offered a sign of the cross then threw his head back as if to laugh out loud and gave this poor deacon a big slap on the back as if he’d just met his old friend at a high school reunion. It’s burned in my memory. Sadly this is a cardinal of the church.

John Albertson

Alas, that man is a non-stop embarrassment and gives new poignancy to the expression “infra dig.” A psychologist remarked that such self-conscious hilarity indicates a deep insecurity.

fredx2

That is really creepy. All of this “showmanship” that they incorporate into the mass. It is a pretended reverence, not a real reverence.

GaudeteMan

Believe it or not adolescent boys exposed to graphic pornography at a young age destroys more priestly vocations than feminization of the liturgy(a lessor evil of course). Most sane people recognize the buffoonery of such practices. Candidates with pornography addiction, on the other hand, are something most faithful dioceses and congregations avoid like the plague. Tragically those with such addictions rarely conquer the beast and are simply not fit to be Alter Christi. A priest friend of mine in charge of vocations for a faithful congregation within the Church said they simply reject the candidate once they realize that he is infected by it. Parents need to confiscate the ipads and smart phones and make sure the souls they are entrusted to guard and protect are not being lured into to this great evil by friends, class mates et al.

Re “Let the piano player tickle the keys”… We recently had a baby grand piano donated by a family as a memorial to a family member. A beautiful and heartfelt intention. It could have been used at other places within the parish – possibly the old school hall next door where a couple of Sunday Masses are celebrated. Nope! It was put directly in front of Saint Joseph’s altar which is to the right of the main altar. Our beautiful Mohler pipe organ is being used less and less. At a recent Mass, I had had enough. I approached the pianist (also our current head of music ministry) and asked if our beautiful organ was now off limits. Mind you, this organ has been in this church for many, many years. It filled my ears when I too was an altar boy. He indicated that the pastor did not want him playing the organ when there was no cantor available. He (the pianist) also indicated that he would have preferred to play the organ rather than the piano. My family has been parishioners and supported this church since the 1800’s. But, I can tearfully say that I am a hairbreadth away from finding a more traditional parish. It’s getting pretty tough to take.

musicacre

The traditional parish you may be thinking of deserves your support since they are being faithful. When our older beloved parishes slip into the worldly quagmire, it is really impt to leave and go to a place of light and refreshment where you can think about our Lord and not have silly distractions. We’re still in the process since my aged mother lives near our church we have always gone to; (and she often still wants to go there) it is a trip over a mountain into the city to go to the Latin Mass but we return so happy and light-hearted!! And I have noticed lately there is an entire table after Mass (at lunch) of new university students that are now attending every week. The communion rail was restored to this church last year by a carpenter in the parish, and artistically is better and more ornate than the original. This church is shared by Novus Ordo mass people and when the entire choir and the organist threatened Father they would leave if he put up the rail…he said that he waved and smiled, and said goodbye!! He wasn’t going to be threatened. It was awesome. They haven’t returned but there are even more parishioners now. Oh and by the way there are two new budding vocations in the parish, one university student and one high school student…..for the Latin Mass of course, not the Novus Ordo.

zoltan

“This church is shared by Novus Ordo mass people and when the entire choir and the organist threatened Father they would leave if he put up the rail…he said that he waved and smiled, and said goodbye!! He wasn’t going to be threatened. ”

Incredible — just the sort of manly courage one likes to see in a priest.

littleeif

Is is Mr. Esolen or Mr. Excellent? Today, the latter I think!

St JD George

Where I live in OH several parishes over the next few years are going to undergo their conversion into pastoral regions with one priest to serve many. Maybe that will serve as a wake up call when people realize the crises of vocations through the greater imposition of maybe only having one Mass to attend or having to drive further when some close.

s;vbkr0boc,klos;

The photos made me remember a quote:

Father Stefano Manelli, founder of the Franciscans of the Immaculate, when the discussion turned to liturgical dancers, was heard to say, “The Holy Mass is Calvary and the only one dancing at the foot of the Cross on Calvary was the devil.”

michelekc

Love it. I will remember this quote!

Atilla The Possum

A class quote … and so, so true!

Anglicanæ

This quote made my year. Stealing it.

Tweety58

I have NEVER seen Liturgical Dance in ANY Church in Canada and I would disrupt it.

I have stood up during a sermon when a priest said something egregiously contrary to the Faith/Catechism spoken my piece which shocked ALL present including ME and walked out and contacted his Bishop.

Anglicanæ

Good for you and the Church. If only more laity would do the same.

Tweety58

Thanks 🙂

Glenn M. Ricketts

Good show, but I have to ask: what was the bishop’s response?

Tweety58

The discussions between priest and bishop were private but judging by the glare I got after another mass-he got “straightened ” out.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Good for you, and good for the bishop. Crisis readers, take note!

Tweety58

We have a GREAT Bishop-better than the former who scuttled off to Rome when the Diocese and the Priests revolted over the fact that he had ceded all his responsibilities(except the pointy hat and Crozier) to a coven of 3 power hungry unbelievably high paid women who were what Pope Emeritus Benedict damningly referred to as PROFESSIONAL CATHOLICS…..or as I called ’em Pharisees.

They had the Temerity to tell priests what they could and could not do.

They’re GONE.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Pray to God that He send us other poor wretches such prelates.

Tweety58

The future of Catholicism and Priestly vocation is the East-Africa India and East Timor,etc.We are blessed with priests now from these places and BELIEVE me are ORTHODOX PLUS.Soon they will be made Bishops God willing.

North America needs Missionaries from these places to combat Satan to desavage us and our abortive(Child Sacrifice to the altar of Feminazism)and pornified materialistic ,drugged out Cultuture,

We must remember that we Faithful are the Remnant and that “white” Persecution has come and will get VERY red-as Satan grows bolder in the face of a weak Church.

Gimmee some old timey CATHOLIC TRIUMPHALISM when the Culture LISTENED.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Amen, brother.

Tweety58

Amen,Glenn.

Annette Breathnachski

We have an east indian priests. 60 % of our dioce priests are imported from india.No orthodoxy in these men. Our priest told us that if he were ever asked to celebrate the EF he would QUIT the priesthood.

s;vbkr0boc,klos;

Are they as hard to understand as the Nigerians?

Annette Breathnachski

Yes and the bish banishes them to the tiniest communities and the poor rural people haven’t been able to understand a sermon for 8 years. no rotation to be fair. One East Indian after another. And these guys say mass and disappear. No scheduled confeassions, one mass a week.Of course even if one can understand the words of a novus ordo sermon one would have no clue what they are talking about anyway.

musicacre

My husband is East Indian, even though I am N.American European…why pick on them?? Your name looks Ukrainian; I flunked grad 12 algebra because I couldn’t understand the the “Ukrainian” teachers’ accent….how does that feel? Let’s face it we’ve all been immigrants at one time, even if a generation or two, so don’t be so elite about accents.

I concur.
If a man leaves his home, his family and everything he knows to come to an area where priests are in short supply, be happy you have an accent to complain about.

Annette Breathnachski

How sad that you flunked algebra but sorry I am not Ukrainian. And I have no trouble understanding the thickest Indian accent but these good farm folks out here do. The bish puts these guys in the sticks where nobody can understand a word they are saying. I am from a large city with many Indian and ethnic friends so I have no trouble. But these folks have no experience with accents. It is hard on these priests too not to be understood. Remember this is the N O where everything is about interaction. Too bad about your attempts to make this a racist instead of a practical and compassionate common sense matter.

Benjamin Warren

No, there were plenty of Englishmen in America who are much higher born than the recent Guatemalan, etc. who can be proud of their birth. Anyone who disagrees is probably just the rabble.

I did the same thing once. The priest was preaching that it is ok to euthanize by starvation. I reported him. Priest got promoted and I got blackballed.

Sixtus Maximus

That priest is the priest of the Culture of Death. The devil incarnate and there are plenty of them going around now a days. Cardinal Dolan is one of these allowing Sodomites in mortal sin to march in New York’s St Patricks day parade. We see that in Cardinals who give Communion to Pro-Abortion Politicians. We see this when the Cardinals are in Sodomite relationships and those Sodomite Cardinals and Bishops allow other Sodomite to become priests. Satan is having the field day in the Catholic Church that Pope Leo XIII was terrified of in his dream which he wrote the St. Michael prayers.

Gregory Metz

I agree with the needed support for Catholic doctrine and correct education, and especially with the need for people to actually realize this. Although I disagree with you statement on Cardinal Dolan, he is a papal candidate, HHS mandate fighter, and defender of the faith. The answer to these problems that you have mentioned is that individual communities and individuals seek and find truth with correct support and excercising of the Catholic faith and Church. I commend all of you who get to so directly stand up for the faith! i wish I had more opportunities to do the same, although I have been blessed with a great Catholic upbringing in Regnum Christi lead by the scared yet strengthened order the Legionaries of Christ. We must all find the truth through education, but even mores through our own path of growing toward Christ in our own education and (moreso) prayer. We need people like Saint JP 2 (who appointed Cardinal Dolan by the way) and others to help lead the Church in the correct direction even when parts fail to follow.

Gregory Metz

Also give love to those who struggle in finding truth. For we all do, and only can by the grace of God. We all must repent and seek and believe in heaven! None of us deserve it but God can till give it to us out of love. So love even those who seem radically off base and confused such as gays, abortionist, and corrupted leaders. We all need God’s mercy! God bless you and goodluck all on the path to heaven!!! We all must make it!

Sixtus Maximus

Giving Holy Charity is admonishing evil to a soul that is headed to perdition. That is Holy Love. Holy Charity. Just to sit there land say who am I to Judge does not cut to the chase with Jesus Christ. Those who do are wimps and are afraid of being persecuted for standing their ground like a St. Paul or St. Barnabas or a St. Timothy. These Saints were fearless in front of evil. These Cardinals like Dolan are a disgrace to Christ the King and His Heavenly Court.

Anita Justice

The word “Vatican” literally means “Divining Serpent,” and is derived from Vatis = Diviner and Can = Serpent. Vatican City and St. Peter’s Basilica were built on the ancient pagan site called in Latin vaticanus mons or vaticanus collis, which means hill or mountain of prophecy.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDDfYTGKDfk

Sixtus Maximus

Gregory please wait a minute. Cardinal Dolan in an interview on meet the press was asked the Question by Dick Gregory what he thought up Michael Sam’s big kiss to his boyfriend on National TV. Cardinal Dolan said, “Bravo! Who am I to Judge.” This the Prince of the Holy Catholic Church refused to denounce the evil of sodomy and it arrived in the house of Almighty God from the epicenter of the Catholic Faith and Tweeted around the world. From on top of the Dome of St. Peter’s Basilica Michael Sam got on one knee and proposed to his boyfriend. This is the refusal of Cardinal Dolan to stand up to the evil of Sodomy that has enveloped the world . Refuse to denounce this evil it will one day arrive in your house.
Cardinal Dolan error # 2: Allowing Sodomites in Mortal Sin to march in the St. Patrick’s Day Parade. The Greatest Saint that caught evil and against Sodomy Cardinal Dolan slaps this Saint in the Face. Lets hope Cardinal Dolan who closed one third of the churches in New York City and he is not finished yet. The Cardinal Dolan who chums up to Obama, Cuomo, Hilary Clinton the worst enemiesof thChurch.

Sixtus Maximus

Cardinal Dolan is chumming up to the baby killers for money. He’s a harlot betraying Christ for blood money from Pro-Abortionists. Cardinal Dolan is a living Judas who does not have the supernatural faith. Card. Dolan’s Consecration of the Eucharist is mechanical like he is Consecrating cookies. Please Gregory let’s pray that Cardinal Dolan resigns from his Cardinalship because he’s leading souls to Hell of all eternity when Cardinal Dolan’s job is to save babies and save souls. But Catholics are so confused they don’t know what to think and the leave the Church and putting their immortal souls in danger for leaving the Holy Sacraments need to enter through the gates of Heaven. Dolan needs to resign not becoming Pope please!!!

Bac

How do you know his words of consecration are mechanical as though over cookies?

Sixtus Maximus

Cardinal Dolan raises the host for a New York second and puts it down without any veneration then proceeds with the Chalice. Priests who do that do not believe that Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist. They treat the host as a mire cookie.. watch Cardinal Dolan at a Mass.

Sixtus Maximus

Bac to reply to your Sodomy comment. Yes Sodomy is the worst sin against Almighty God. Sodomy is worse than committing murder. Sodomy calls for Vengeance from Heaven. This has always been taught in the Catholic Church until recently. And behold the Sodomite Priests attacked innocent Catholic Boys and stole their virginity. This has scared the Catholic Church immensely not only traumatized these innocent boys. Dante’s Inferno the lowest ring deep in the fires of Hell are for Sodomy and User. Learn your Faith, Bac.

Anthony

How do you know what a priest believes or doesn’t believe? Were you granted the ability to know what’s in their hearts?

Jenny Tomsic Bioche

God be praise for faithful such as you Sixtus and ubiPetruseEst. Dolan was the keynote at the highly anticipated “Christ our Life” conference here in Iowa. There was no attempt by the Bishop or the conference committee to un-invite him, as that means sweet but sadly naive women who want conference numbers to go up won’t actually tow the line and be part of ADMONISHING the sinner. All my husband and I could do was not attend the conference, and share with those we knew were going why. There is so much kool aid drinking it makes me weep.

Sixtus Maximus

Well first of all it’s a sad day that a Laity person has to Admonish a Prince of the Church. It has gotten to the point you can keep quiet. My Baptismal promise demands me to speak up and renounce Satan and those who are leading souls to Hell for all eternity. All we can do is SPEAK UP and make sure we are being heard. Start having vigils in front of the Chancery building with a sign Admonishing the Bishop with praying the Holy Rosary. Much like we do in front of Abortion Mills. Since Cardinal Dolan has surrendered to the enemy saying the Culture Wars are over we have to confront the trader to Christ and His Church. But there has to be a change from the New Age of Aquarius

JACinnamone

Ahem, currently you are preaching a sort of oddly reversed tenant of Modernism (the synthesis of all heresies). You seem to think that the Bishops are progressives who are attempting force an evolution of Church doctrine and that the laity is the authority keeping Church doctrine true to what has been handed down through tradition and scripture. Also your obsession with homosexual activity is a bit perplexing and disconcerting.

Richard Bucci

It happened in England under Henry VIII and it took the heretics years to put down the loyal laity!!

Sixtus Maximus

Jenny just keep speaking up even if it is uncomfortable. We Catholics have been indoctrinated with the Church of Nice and the Heresy of Tolerance Theology which is in truth called Apostasy Acceptance. You are going to be attacked and will find how nice the Church of Nice really is. Trust in Mother Mary she will protect you if you ask her. Mother Mary is so upset with what has happened in Her Holy Church. We have to use the Sacraments The Eucharistic prayers during the Consecration with our intentions. Make Sacrifices and Fasting. The Lord is with us and so is Holy Mother Mary. They do not accept Homosexuality in the Holy Catholic Church and never will accept it. The poor souls who do are delusional and should not have anything to do with the Catholic Church..

Benjamin Warren

I’d say speak up, but not in Mass. That could be a sacriledge.

Anna

All of you at an embarrassment! Get over yourselves.

Anita Justice

dare you take my JEOPARDY challenge??? (See above post) Are you SMART ENOUGH TO FIGURE IT OUT???

ubiPetrusEst

Gregory Metz, even saints can make mistakes. One of JP II’s most glaring mistakes is spelled D-O-L-A-N.

Are you aware that Dolan’s Archdiocese of New York pays for the abortions of its employees in the 1199 union? This was made public by the “New York Times” on May 27, 2013. The response of Dolan’s Director of Communications was that funding a labor union’s abortions is different than funding abortions under federal mandate. The latter would violate the religious institution’s conscience. For documentation and details, see http://dorothydayworker.blogspot.com/2014/09/gay-rights-abortion-infanticide-faith.html

Anita Justice

At least they’re doing something to protect the environment; the more BREEDERS u have on mother Earth, the more NATURAL RE$OURCE$ u deplete. Do the math! DON’T BREED ‘EM IF YOU CAN’T FEED ‘EM!

Anita “Justice” fails to live up to her last name. Someone who recommends Chick publications is a troll, LOL.

X

You shall know them by their fruits…… Don’t be blind to evil.

ubiPetrusEst

Cardinal Dolan, the master politician, has stayed unusually close to home and for longer than he usually does. He is going on long and short pilgrimages with the faithful, making pastoral visits with plenty of photo ops. I suspect he is buttering up his constituency (of whom I am sadly one) so that it there will be no drop in participation or attendance at the St. Patrick’s Day parade. After all, he has sold out and will be there as Grand Marshall.

Bac

Gosh you seem to have an issue here with sodomy – there are many other sins you know

GaudeteMan

Good luck taking on the Lavender Mafia.

Anglicanæ

Remember: leftists cannot countenance opposition, ever. It goes against their dogma of freedom of conscience.

Bac

Seems many hear can’t countenance opposition either

Toadspittle

Lucky you didn’t get euthanised, Annette!
Can you explain how “blackballing,” came into it?

Annette Breathnachski

I do contracting work for the church. They ried to put me out of business. They used slander and deception.

Jenny Tomsic Bioche

God bless you Annette, and you have been found worthy by our Lord to be persecuted. Parish politics is at the root of all that is rotting in our Blessed Church. Our Lady of Sorrows, Ora Pro Nobis.

Bac

I don’t know Annette and can only read her comments here and know no more than that. I have not heard the other side of the story – that is not to deny the truth told by Annette but to be fair before making judgement.

Annette Breathnachski

Bac, I will be happy to give you the details. You can believe what I am saying.

Small potatoes compared top the cover-up still occurring throughout ALL the nation’s public schools. Great reason to be anti-union!

Anita Justice

Phil, please, I beg you! Don’t be another Anthony; will he believe the pope and burn in purgatory, or believe in Jesus and go to heaven? Inquiring minds must know! http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1057/1057_01.asp (scroll down link to read tract) BE SAVED, PHIL! “because I care”!

You might want to research pedophilia and sexual assault in public schools before you stand too tall to condemn. I would never excuse the acts of those priests, and the acts of non-priests do not excuse them, but they do put them in context. It is NOT a problem confined to the religious community.

Anita Justice

WTF said it was exclusive to the CATHOLIC CULT??? Are u even remotely aware of the MILLION$S THAT WERE PAID OUT IN HU$H MONEY, FINES & SETTLEMENTS TO KEEP VICTIMS & THEIR FAMILIES SILENT??? ARE YOU EVEN AWARE OF THE HALF A DOZEN “TREATMENT CENTERS” THAT THE Roman Catholic CULT operates??? And that even they were ill equipped to handle the staggering amount of pedophiles??? How bout you read the tell all book “HITLER’S POPE”???

Tyler Lorge

OOOH GET OFF THE PINE CONE DEAR! YE ARE THE ONE NOT AWARE THAT MOST SEXUAL RAPES AN AGAINST CHILDREN COME MORE FROM PROTESTANTS TEACHERS AN SUCH ! YE GOT A BAD FILTHY MOUTH AN I WOULD NEVER TRUST YE WITH ANYONE,S KIDS! JSTEELE98 IS VERY WISE! WHAT ARE YOU HIDING IN THE CLOSET ANITA! WE KNOW ALL ABOUT YOUR SECRETS ! SO LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE! AN GET HELP ! +++

Well, then, I expect to see you lead the attack on teacher’s unions, school boards, and PTS supporting either. You sound like a typical garden-variety anti-Catholic bigot because your ignorance of actual facts is the hall mark of such.

A major U.S. Dept. of Justice study conducted in 2005 found results which should interest you. Of all the religious groups infected by the sex abuse crisis (Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim), the Catholic Church had the lowest involvement of ALL religious groups.

That’s right. The incidence of this problem in the Catholic Church – mostly resolved now, btw – is far lower than that found in Protestant churches, Jewish synagogues and religious schools, and Islamic mosques and their religious schools.

But here’s the real shocker. The lead researcher said that the problem in the Catholic Church was entirely dwarfed by what is happening in the national public school system, and – now get this! – by a factor of 100 to 1.

Can you read, Anita justice? Do you see the problem here? You, my ignorant, bigoted friend, YOU are the problem because you insist on peddling lies while ignoring where the problem festers and grows beyond our imaginings.

You are a cowardly liar, like all the rest of the bigots who peddle this nonsense.

jsteele98

Bravo

Anita Justice

Guess who is a member of the CATHOLIC CULT????

Tyler Lorge

WHY DID YOU PROTECT YE FAMILY REALATIVES ANITA ??? STOP EXCEPTING GAY SAME SEX AN YOULL SEE A BIG DIFFERENCE DEAR! IT WAS THE GAYS IN THE CHURCH THAT COVERED UP ! !!! AND TO SAY THAT IF MEN PRIEST COULD GET MARRIED THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN ????HAHAHAHAHALOL READ IN THE LIBRARY ON THE 1981 SCANDAL IN LORING PARK MPLS AN THEY ARESTED 150 SOME MEN THAT ONE NIGHT FOR HAVING SEX IN THE PARK WITH YOUNG KIDS! AN WHEN THEY WERE BOOKED AN IT HIT THE PAPER …ALL 150 MEN THAT HAD SEX WITH KIDS WERE ALL MARRIED AN HAD WIVES! 🙁 SO MUCH FOR YE THEORY ON LETTING PRIEST GET MARRIED! THAT NEVER STOP THOSE MARRIED MEN FROM HAVING EVIL SICK SEX WITH KIDS! AN THEY WERE LIKE THE GAYS THAT BECAME A PRIEST TO COVER UP JUST LIKE THE GAYS MARRIED WOMEN TO COVER UP AN MOLEST THERE NEPHEWS 🙁 SICK SICK SICK ! SO ITS NOT BECAUSE THERE A PRIEST! WE MUST WEED THE GAY SAME SEX MOLESTERS OUT OF OUR CHURCHES AN SCHOOLS AN BOYSCOUTS 🙁 SO READ UP GET EDUCATED AN TAKE A PILL AN SEEK HELP !!!

If more Catholics punched more noses people would take heed.They’re scared to death of Muslims because they fear winding up with their head in their lap.

I CHEERED when the French Catholic STUDENTS destroyed “Piss Christ” and when the Florida woman in the ‘Catholic Warrior’ t-shirt destroyed Satanic Temple’s holiday display designed to incite and insult Christians generally and Catholics SPECIFICALLY

Christ was no wimp-witness his JUSTIFIABLE assault on those who defiled His Father’s House.AND my FAV Luke 22:36 “He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

A sword (for protection against other men) was to be more important to them than a cloak (for protection against the elements) in the days to come.As his PERSECUTION was to begin.

He said John 15:20,”Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.” That “you” is US as well as the Apostles and we have every right to defend our lives and our Faith.

I have confronted anti-Catholic Bigots LOUDLY AND PUBLICLY and was more than willing to punch them in the nose but public humiliation sufficed.

2 years ago I went to our little mall(I live in a very small town on Lake Erie in Ontario and was wearing a T Shirt with the word Catholic and the pices on it and as I passed a VERY large man,he snidely said.”I’ll just bet you are….”

I’m 6’2′ 200 lbs and don’t suffer bigoted fools lightly.I turned on a dime and got 6″ from his nose and yelled.”WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY TO ME?!” He was shocked and I continued to ream him out for his hateful bigotry VERY LOUDLY as a crowd gathered.

I blocked his exit and told him exactly what I thought of him and how many of my fellow non-Catholic and Catholic Christians were in the crowd and how by insulting MY Faith,he insulted THEIRS.

When I finished (I took my time) he slunk out the door and the crowd applauded.I was also ready for physical attack and was half-praying he’d take a swing-but like ALL Bullies he was a physical and moral coward.

I agree that it is the goal of some people in the Church to destroy the priesthood. They are angry and upset that women can not be priests and have waged full scale guerrilla warfare on the Catholic Priesthood. They secretly rejoice when priests are stretched thin trying to juggle 4-5 parishes. They beam with joy when a lay administrator is placed in charge of a parish. They would rather attend a Communion service presided over by a “trained and certified lay leader of prayer”, than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The attack on the Priesthood is really an attack on Christ Himself. Today, Barabbas is a power hungry lay leader of prayer who loves to preside over Communion services. Give us Barabbas and crucify the humble holy priest who wishes to wear beautiful vestments and follow the rubrics of the Mass. He is lofty and out of touch with us common folk who want to wear flip flops, short shorts, and update our facebook status from the back pew.

musicacre

I guess we all need to understand that the church has been infiltrated by many who are on a mission to destroy it…aside from the weak follower/poor formation priests, there are some who are just not Catholic. We shouldn’t be frightened by this, just fight back by praying and supporting the traditional masses. It’s nothing new; if you look at the time of Phillip II and when the reformation was beginning, there were thousands of “pretend Catholics” that did a lot of damage, inc. Queen Elizabeth’s top advisor, Cecil, and many priest and “bishops”. They’re trying to mess with your head, so instead of taking the bait, just go to a faithful parish.

disqus_Qmc7pDyHTl

Some people applaud the priest shortage as a positive step bring about lay empowerment. Lord have mercy!

Reasonable_Opinion

All good points…things NOT to do. But here is a positive action to consider. In our diocese we have nearly as many seminarians as Lincoln. But ours is not “The Shire.” Bubbling just beneath the surface of the faithful is a rumbling of “what about our daughters?” when it comes to religious vocations. As the “stewardship diocese,” we rarely have special collections, but one of two each year is for the priests and seminarians–fair and good enough. We pray for more “priestly vocations.” Good. Our seminarians have their entire education paid for by the diocese. If a young man goes through his education and decides upon a religious order, the order compensates the diocese. Good. Good! But what about our devout young women? To whom shall they turn? There is some outreach from local Consecrated Religious orders–some are very solid–others much less so. There is a good and holy and noble role for our daughters in service of the Church. Let’s continue our spiritual and material support and outreach to the young men…and also renew our efforts for Consecrated Religious life for our women. THIS may help solve at least PART of the problem we’ve created.

Fantastic, accurate assessment of the so-sad state of affairs in the Church (yes, with a capital C!)…..
Looking forward to hearing you in Boston MA on this Sunday, Jan. 25th at Faneuil Hall at the Assembly of Life, Mr. Esolen!!!!!
Everyone near Boston, please attend at 2pm!

St JD George

He’s enough to make me inclined to take a trip there (or is this a one time event?). I might wait until the spring or summer though. I haven’t been back to my birth place in eons.

Ann Hessenius

Come on back! Yes, the the Massachusetts Citizens for Life (MCFL) event ocurs once a year – each January. Google it! Will be great event this year!

Tess

FIND A TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS COMMUNITY AND NEVER, NEVER DARKEN THE DOORS OF THESE SO CALLED ‘CATHOLIC’ CHURCHES AGAIN. SOME PEOPLE DRIVE HOURS TO ATTEND A TLM . THE ‘SACRIFICE’ IS WORTH IT!

St JD George

We go to Old St Mary’s in the city from time to time as they have the only continuous German Mass in the country. We met people there who drive from Indy regularly and that’s 100 miles away – I was in awe. They also has a Rathskeller for discussing the homily after Mass which was also enjoyable. We attended several churches in the area before settling on the one we decided to finally join. We really like our Pastor and he is not inclined to do anything like have dancers thankfully.

“Be effeminate. Get rid of every single hymn that has anything
to do with Christian soldiership. Castrate the rest of the hymns. Or,
better, favor hymns that make Jesus into a kind of safe sweet Boyfriend,
with whom you can make out on the couch now and in heaven later. Let
the music be led by women, especially women who like to be seen and
heard performing it. Put the hand-raising cantor up front, to upstage
the priest and Christ. Let girls do silly dance routines up and down the
aisles”

How long before the Catholics at the usual soft right web sites start attacking you the way they are attacking Cardinal Burke?

Anglicanæ

Pure gold: ” Assume that everybody who is not named Hitler is going to heaven, because some middling bit of natural pleasantness is enough to please the Almighty.”

Thank you.

Ruth Rocker

This is what has come from the “church of nice” so prevalent today. Whatever happened to no salvation outside of the Catholic Church? Oh, right, I forgot!! That’s much too mean and exclusive, both of which are cardinal sins today.

An aside: I once heard a priest euphemistically call hell “the other place” — I was in shock. You don’t warn people of “the other place,” you urge them to flee the wrath to come, the everlasting fires of eternal damnation.

Oh no, he was an Anglican priest who believed in purgatory — very vocal about it as a matter of fact. He just didn’t like talking about hell. Wimp.

St JD George

Maybe the thought of it scared him too much.

Anglicanæ

Indubitably.

Captain America

Dangerous topic, Tony! The women who read it will automatically be offended.

But the gist of it is true. Go to church and you find it filled with things like candles, flowers, banners, women in charge of everything (but the priest function) and then some. Not only do you have this, but also the Christian message of love, humility, help for the old and poor, etc., and the fact that priests work a lot around old ladies. .. well this is a dish of stew not many young men with energy and ambition really want to eat.

musicacre

The women who are authentically Catholic will not be offended, as I am not. I’m a woman and I also don’t appreciate women in the sanctuary, being casual, and therefore distracting, etc. Problem solved; we go to a Latin Mass now and the priest (surprise, surprise), does everything himself, inc. the readings, Communion, etc. What a relief!

LatinMassType

I thank God that my church has an altar rail, though it’s not frequently used. Right now one of our priests is the type to “assume that everybody who is not named Hitler is going to heaven,” and he assures us of this constantly. Someday I am going to ask him if he believes in The Real Presence.

But the relaxed attitude of this priest is balanced out by a younger priest who speaks of the need for confession and offers extended hours for it in the evening when people can go. And they do. He also loves the (in some circles thought-to-be-archaic) church ceremonies–blessing of gold frankincense and myrrh for example–and is attracting the faithful to them. He is so reverent and there is no question about his belief in the Real Presence. He wears the cassock, speaks with authority on the hard teachings and is a masculine role model.

Alas, no vocations from our parish for a long time, but with the large families cropping up and the manly example of priests like this I suspect we will have seminarians in the future!

grzybowskib

I have good news and bad news from the Diocese of Nashville. First, the good news: this past summer, nine men were ordained to the priesthood in our diocese. I think it was either the largest or second largest ordination in the US at the time. Now, for the bad news: a liturgical horror story to share. One of the priests in my parish has been known to pretend that he is a rap artist during his homilies. He’s done it twice while I’ve seen him preaching at Mass and it was the most embarrassing thing I’ve ever seen. AND, my own family was ok with him doing it.

Anglicanæ

Sick.

grzybowskib

Amen. 🙁

St JD George

I confess I haven’t confronted any priests because I’ve really liked the ones who have been my pastor. However, I wonder when these kinds of things occur what the best way to bring up the displeasure on a personal level (without inviting your family). Probably much more effective if many voice their concern than one. I know they responded to a calling and we should be thankful, but they are human still and also should be held responsible by the parishioners.

grzybowskib

He hasn’t done it in at least 3 years, so I’m sure someone talked to him. Praise the Lord for that!

Anglicanæ

This weekend my wife and I walked into the magnificent, breathtaking basilica of St. Mary Sunday afternoon in Minneapolis. Mass was just starting.

The contrast of the worship with the sacred space was startling. The heavenly high altar absolutely upstaged by the eyesore “table” Not a single confessional (must have been a dozen or so in there) in use. It was an English NO Mass, the opening piece was being sung by a lady up front near the chancel with a piano neatly situated there too. The words were blah (don’t know the “song” so I couldn’t tell you its name), the music was even worse. Sounded like a bad summer campfire gathering.

Out of respect for the earnest and hungry sheep, the wife and I left quietly.

Whenever I see women up front “doing the show” as well as female acolytes, it just breathes a sinister spirit of egalitarianism. The emasculation ripples throughout the West, and even the greatest cathedrals and basilicas are brought low by this.

In stark contrast, the beautiful church in St. Paul, St. Agnes, has no female altar servers, no lay Eucharistic “ministers”, the choir is back in the loft filling the space with excellent, trained, and serious strains suitable to the greatest event a mortal can participate in. And, oh yes, it is packed by countless young families (and older people too!)

I am a banana peel slip away from becoming a Roman Catholic. Thankfully St. Agnes is there to catch people like me. I can’t imagine evangelizing with the manliest faith ever and then bringing people into a flowery soiree. What do you say? “I’m sorry, the icons of Christ like the flowing robes but not the flowing blood.” Tragic.

Mickey’O

Don’t do it! Do NOT become a “Roman Catholic” in America. There is NO “Roman Catholic” services in the People’s Republic of North America. What is called “Roman Catholic” is just a repackaged Anglican service with a hefty dose of New Age pablum for taste and flavor. The real “Catholic Church” died 50 years ago and hasn’t been seen since.
Save your time, money and sanity. Remain an Anglican.

Anglicanæ

I feel your pain. It’s been my temptation to conclude as much since our traditional Anglo-Catholic services are better than 95% of what’s out there. But, thanks be to God, St. Agnes has been a bastion of orthodoxy. I can’t believe the RC witness has been completely eradicated.

RC

There are good RC parishes, seminaries and orders, and they’re the one whose numbers are growing with many wonderful young and devout vocations. Gives us hope. Keep looking and ask around. You can find a good parish home if you pray and our patient. (Those who have 24/7 perpetual adoration chapels are a good place to start.) Good luck, Anglicanae!

Anglicanæ

St Agnes here in St Paul is perfect for me and my family. So blessed to have it.

me, myself & I r all here

thanks for the thoughts, certainly something to ponder……..

as for the “commentators” below…….
before all the “dancing” and howling……..
you might want to state 1st:
how many of your children are serving as priests/religious?
when is the last time you asked a young person if they were asking God about their vocation.
then let the bellowing begin…….

St JD George

I have, but he doesn’t feel the calling. I’ve also inquired about becoming a Deacon but found out I have an issue (or it with me) with Humanae Vitae. Your point is well taken though. A generation or more ago having this conversation was I suspect fairly common place. Today it seems to be nothing short of a miracle when it does. Somebody else will do it, right?

GG

How is that relevant or justification for the nonsense that goes on now?

Tony

When was the last time I asked a young person about his or her vocation? I do that regularly. Several of my former students have become priests. Several have become nuns. Several others joined a seminary and then determined that they did not have a vocation to the priesthood.

Is everybody supposed to be everything on earth, in order to gain standing to criticize acts of folly or treachery?

AugustineThomas

There is a one step solution to all of these problems: the Latin Mass.

Anglicanæ

A vital first step. But also a re-assertion of the primacy of biblical norms of manhood and womanhood, and the place and role of each.

That God suffers to condescend to us, tradtionalists or progressivists, is not really the issue. The question is: considering who the primary audience is, and the nature of the event, what is theologically most fitting, and what is the best exposition of what is happening. The liturgy is an extension of one’s biblical hermeneutic.

Tamsin

Liturgical dance being the re-presentation of cries of “Barabbas!”

Anglicanæ

And the angels weep.

I think if they want to go for theatrics, they all should hobble in on crutches and roll in on gurneys, covered in leprous and oozing sores, covered in ash. That would be more honest.

Tamsin

If you put yourself in the right frame of mind, you can imagine each dancer a sponge soaked in sour wine…

Anglicanæ

Actually very funny, in a retching sort of way.

Tweety58

MY PRIEST SAYS ALLOW ONE GIRL TO BE AN ALTAR SERVER AND THE BOYS WILL LEAVE.HE WILL NOT ALLOW GIRL’S TO SERVE.

.ALMOST EVERY CHURCH I GO TO HAS only ALTAR SERVERS WHO ARE GIRLS AND THERE GOES A STRONG SOURCE FOR PRIESTS.

PUT THE “CHOIR” IN THE BACK-GET RID OF THE GUITAR AND ENOUGH WITH THE HAND RAISING

Anglicanæ

Hear you loud and clear (I guess the caps lock was your way of emphasis). Turns my stomach for sure.

Tweety58

aCTUALLY i’M A ONE FINGER TYPIST AND DIDN’T REALIZE UNTIL TOO LATE.Did it again,
I used to be a Minister of the Eucharist until I finally realized that I was being WAY too presumptive,THAT”S THE PRIESTS JOB.Bring back altar rails and put the TABERNACLE right behind the altar,not off to the side !

Anglicanæ

My sincerest apologies, then. Amen to all you wrote.

Tweety58

Thanks 🙂 you’re very kind.

Marianne

Have you noticed they call the nave the “sanctuary “? The sanctuary used to be the section behind the communion rail. Protestants call their whole church the sanctuary. I think we’ve caved to Protestants as much as to feminists, and they are gloating just as much.

Anglicanæ

Actually, traditional Protestants reserved “sanctuary” for what was happening at the front of the church. The “nave” was where the congregation sat.

Thats what I said. The sanctuary was where the altar was. That is now the stage and the whole church is the sanctuary. Although the narthex extends into the whole church now for optimum irreverent
socializing before mass, which has changed from when the rosary used to be said. When I complain, I’m told “Go with the flow”.

Tweety58

The SSPXers have a point on the Protestatizement of the physical surroundings and the laughable,”Kumbayah-ever bodies goin’ to hebben”childish wide road sermons.

My priest put the Tabernacle directly behind the altar and people were angry because it covered 1/6th of an icon of Christ. THE TABERNACLE CONTAINS CHRIST.A picture is a sacramental NOT a sacrament.

No one goes to confession any more and he BLASTS the CINOs in the pews for neglecting a Sacrament presented in personae Chisti that HEALS,My son and I go weekly and if necessary more than once ,If St John Paul THE GREAT could go 3 times a week I can try for at least once.

People have forgotten what SIN IS.

When I was a pre-V2 altarBOY the Sanctuary was SACRED.No one but the priest and two young boys(who prayed the prayers at the foot of the altar IN LATIN),were allowed inside.THE PRIEST bestowed the Eucharist to kneeling Faithful as I carefully placed the paten at their throats so not a GRAIN of Christ was lost.

People believed then and treated the Holy Eucharist LIKE GOD which it literally is,Body,Blood,Soul,and Divinity.

Thank you for your comment and observations-we have SO MUCH to regain. 🙂

Edward Short

That Anthony Esolen should be writing this in 2015 as though it were news is proof of how much denial still obtains in the Church about the willful abandonment of vocations. Rather than name the treachery that has brought us to this unnecessary pass, we are still enjoined in most quarters to see the desuetude of vocations in terms of secularization, the all-purpose bugbear which excuses every conceivable laziness or misconduct.

When one sees altars with young girls masquerading about as altar boys one is tempted to point out that this obviously discourages young boys from entering into what for centuries was the effective seedbed for vocations. Yet one never does point this out because, in one’s pusillanimous way, one does not wish to appear impolite. So craven timidity keeps one from decrying the obvious betrayal of vocations in which so many parishes connive.

The stripping away of the altar rail and the stripping of the altar itself is still more telltale of the treachery that is now commonplace in our parish life and our liturgical life. Add to this the abandonment of all dogmatic catechesis and we have the perfect recipe for no vocations whatever. The priests who do come to us often come of their own heroic volition without any encouragement or guidance from local parish priests.

If liberal defeatism and treachery had not been allowed to take hold in our parishes, young men would be coming to our colors in droves. There is no reason why we cannot make our parish life and our liturgical life more receptive to them. If we leave the conduct of our churches to liberals, they will continue to make them at once effeminate and effete.

Look at what Father Robbins did to Father Rutler’s Church of Our Saviour on Park Avenue in New York City. That makes Mr. Esolen’s point in terms that are almost too blatant to credit. And yet in that unfortunate changing of the guard one can see the whole problem in miniature. Father Rutler conducted the parish life and the liturgical life of the church as all priests conducted them before the saboteurs arrived on the scene. Yet now Father Robbins has scrupulously conformed the church to all the approved liberal fads. And the result? It has no vocations, it is going bankrupt, and the altar looks like an impoverished Congregationalist meeting hall.

ed

instead of filling the blogs with complaints and judgments, would we not be better off being light and salt to these congregations? abandoning the poor souls who receive so little from these congregations is not necessarily the most Christ like response, is it?
faithful and devout attendance, in spite of the nonsense and transgressions that might be occurring, may help us be even better hands and hearts of the Lord.

Anglicanæ

Sir, when worship is the offense, how do you evangelize? I can explain a hypocrite, I can’t easily explain the grave errors ravaging the form of the highest act to which we are summoned.

JP

The problem is that you expect the laity to take on city hall (i.e. local parish priests and perhaps even the Bishops). To the uninitiated, it looks like subversiveness. The onus is therefore put on the laity (a job normally reserved for priests). No matter what I may think of the parish priests in my neighborhood, I will not be involved in sheep stealing. If the priest does defend doctrine and orthodoxy, then the burden is on him. If my fellow parishioners feel comfortable in their heterodoxy or ignorance, well, that is their problem. If one asked my for my opinion, that is something totally different. But, your idea of “salt and light” is in fact a very Protestant idea. And it is bound to inspire a response, thus, “Are you trying to be more Catholic than the Pope?” Just last week, the website Patheos featured a female blogger who castigated those refuse to see Christ in the New Mass. She waxed eloquently about how wrong we all are. And her attitude is everywhere. In the end, people will do what they damn well please.

I resent how today’s Church forces us all to chose between Christ and His Church. That path is a recipe for disaster, not only for the Church, but for souls.

ColdStanding

No.

Mickey’O

What is called the “Roman Catholic Church” is, in fact, a Protestant sect no different than the Episcopalians, Methodists, or Lutherans. The only Catholic Masses being offered are by the SSPX or SSPV. Some have called into question why I’m here. The reason is to call to holiness those who seek God. Remember, five centuries ago, there were multiple men calling themselves “Pope.” (look up Anti-Pope) The human organization of the Vatican can be in grievous error for a long time before the Holy Spirit gets to work. SSPX and SSPV are the, for lack of a better term, “Ark of the Covenant.”

RufusChoate

This is funny apparently you’ve never dealt with the progressive open minded souls. Here is a tale for your edification and clarity of thought. A very holy, orthodox and devout priest once went to the mat with threats of severe repercussions from a Bishop who went on to become a Cardinal of the largest Archdiocese after his Pastor and the Bishop’s former secretary complained about…. wait for it. .. the placement of a small crucifix on the the altar of sacrifice facing the Priest during mass in accord with rubrics propagated by Benedict XVI. Not once but three times did this Priest get formally chastised by this Bishop and his Chancery.

He was compelled to submit because the Crucifix on the alar so outraged the progressive contingent that some continue to complain about for years after the fact.

Recently the Pastor and former Bishop’s Secretary was convicted of running a drug operation and money laundering through a Pornography Shop, of course it goes without saying that he is an active homosexual.

While in prison he is still being paid by the Diocese.

This is the level of corruption and rancor the Left has brought to the church and anyone who stays in a progressive parish to reform it is delusional.

Athelstane

Fair point, but: If you have children, it’s a tough decision you have to make on how much you want to expose them to while you’re working to slowly change a parish’s dynamic. Your first responsibility is to their spiritual well-being.

TERRY

Maine Catholics – there is a Latin High Mass in Lewiston at the St. Peter & Paul Basilica at 8 a.m. every Sunday, Rosary at 7:30 confessions at 7:30. Music is acapella by a 5 person choir.

Another one in Portland at noon at the Cathedral on Congress St., both celebrated by Fr. Parent.

Ruth Rocker

I made the mistake of clicking on the video at the end of the article. I nearly threw up. It looked more like a Broadway production by Martha Graham than a religious service, let alone a Holy Mass.

I joined the Church in 1987 and everything I know about the faith since then I have studied and learned on my own. My husband is a “cradle” Catholic, but knew even less about his faith than I did coming in from the outside.

What drew me to the Catholic faith is it’s authenticity. At least it used to be authentic. I can’t tell you how many churches we’ve been in and left after a couple of services. My hubby was in the military and we have been in parishes around the US and in Germany. I think the church on the base in Germany was one of the most offensive. The priest gave a sermon about how the disciples gave away their belongings or sold them and gave away the money and that we should all do likewise. Later that evening, we were visiting friends who happened to live in the apartment above this priest. We watched him pull into his garage in his new Corvette, which he parked beside another Corvette in his garage. He went into his apartment and you could literally feel the rhythm of the music coming from his place. Our friends told us that he had a big screen TV, a huge stereo system with an amazing amount of music and videos. So much for practice what you preach!!

We have been lucky enough to find a more traditional church. There is still an altar rail at which the parishioners kneel to receive on the tongue. There are confessionals with lines queuing up before Mass. The only part of this church that I don’t like is they still have the cocktail-party sign of peace. I simply remain kneeling and concentrating on the body of Jesus on the altar during this silliness.

The church we left before finding this one was not quite as bad as the video, but the music director was a woman who loved to pound on her piano with one hand and stand waving at the congregation to join in singing the dreck she had picked out. The majority of the choir was female as were most of the altar servers. There was a mixture of people in the lectors (of which I was one) and some of them read the scriptures like they were reading the news. It didn’t move them, they put no thought or feeling into what they said. It was frequently all in monotone, usually the men, or squeaky and fast, from the women.

While I did enjoy reading the Word (after reading it at home to practice and to contemplate its meaning) I don’t miss it at our current church. EVERYONE serving at the altar is male. There is a priest and a deacon and, on occasion, a single lay eucharistic minister to assist, but he’s not usually there. I really like this church. The altar is beautiful as are the paintings on the walls and ceilings, gorgeous stained glass windows to contemplate various Bible stories and a full-sized replica of the Pieta as well. We do consider ourselves lucky to have found this church even though it means a longer drive from home. It’s worth it!!

Glenn M. Ricketts

It certainly is.

Ann

How BLESSED you are to have this wonderful parish! Where is it?!?!?!

Ruth Rocker

Emmanuel Catholic Church, Dayton Ohio. It’s the oldest church in Dayton. Here’s their website completely with a picture of the altarhttp://www.emmanuelcatholic.com/

Ethan

Raymond Burke prancing around in $30,000 outfits doesn’t exactly send out the message of the gospels. He claims on the one hand that “it requires a certain manly discipline to serve as an altar boy”, but in the next breath he complains that “the girls were also very good at altar service.” So do the girls have more “manly discipline” or is it just that this discipline is not specifically “manly”. Real men are not frightened of girl cooties. Real men accept that women can be better than they are at certain things. Real men will, like Pope Francis, encourage women and girls to express their gifts within the Church and will want the best for them. Burke is sexist. He needs to set aside his lacy garments and man up to the fact that women have talents that need to be allowed to blossom.

Glenn M. Ricketts

I think he was speaking about altar service, not the general talents of women, wasn’t he? If he’s wrong in discussing the problems of female altar servers, can you address that specific point? I don’t know the price of his vestments, but i don’t see what bearing that has on the discussion. In any case, I doubt that they’re his personal property: they more likely belong to the church where he was celebrating Mass.

Tony

And where are they blossoming, Ethan? In those orders that grouch against the Church for not allowing women to be priests? Those orders are dying. The orders of sisters who want priests to be fathers are growing.

I laugh bitterly when I hear one of those aging sisters complain that the Church does not recognize the gifts of women. What gifts have those women given the Church, in their dying orders? You can’t have sisters teaching or caring for the sick if you have no sisters at all.

Your comment about “real men” is odd. Do you understand that it isn’t a matter of fear, but of complete lack of interest? If you make the liturgy girlish, you will lose the attention of the boys, in nothing flat. Then you will lose most of the girls and the men. Then you will lose the younger women and the older men. Last to go will be the older women. The process has pretty much played itself out in one denomination after another, and in many a Catholic diocese too. This is not speculation but observed fact.

Ethan

Women are blossoming in many areas, Tony, both inside and outside the Church. More and more women are receiving the education and encouragement to celebrate their God-given gifts. “Those women” you resent do much of the work of every parish. They organize the pot lucks and teach Faith Formation. Many of “those women” are very gifted theologians.

As for the “real men” comment, perhaps we are of different generations (I am 23). A hundred years ago, many people would have “lost interest” or been offended if the liturgy were celebrated by a black priest and black altar boys. You would have lost most of the congregation to fear of “N-word cooties”. Those days are over thank God. Boys today are used to being around girls and being bested by girls. If you love girls and women, you thank God that some of them are more intelligent and more capable than you are. When I was an altar boy, I enjoyed working with altar girls. It was fun to have them around. I hope some day to have a daughter. I hope she will be spiritually enriched and spiritually enriching by serving her Church as an altar girl and a Eucharistic Minister. You don’t need to squash women and girls to protect men’s egos or make them feel like “manly men”. You need to boost men’s self esteem so they won’t feel endangered when women and girls are their equals.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Ethan, this sounds like a recorded message that you plug in frequently, even if it’s tangential to the topic under discussion. Who said anything about “squashing women?'” I for one am much more concerned about many men who have vanished and no longer attend Mass. The sensitive guy/male feminist stump speech really doesn’t fit here at all.

Ethan

Please see my reply to Tony above.

Glenn M. Ricketts

See my original comment to which you replied.

Tony

Ethan — come down off the soapbox, please.

All of the denominations that use women for ministers are dying. The orders of sisters that got the feminist virus are dying. That last item means the closing of many Catholic schools. In very few places in the world was what you said about blacks in Catholic churches true. But it is not to the point.

The point is this: If you make the liturgy look like a girlish thing, the boys will lose interest. They check out. Do you want vocations to the priesthood or not? We need three or four times as many as we are getting. Do you want them? We need ten Catholic schools for every one we have now. If the teaching orders of sisters do not revive, we will never get them. If teaching orders of brothers and priests do not revive, we will never get them. We’ve tried it your way for forty years. It failed. Disastrously.

Church duties are not for personal enrichment. They are for the body of Christ. Nobody denies the equality of men and women before Christ. But things go haywire when we forget that we need fathers and mothers, not neuters.

Ethan

Have you not considered that orders for feminist nuns are dying because women have decided that they no longer want to be second-class citizens in an institution that diminishes their value? Society has changed and no longer accepts unequal treatment of women and girls. Most men today are feminists. We want for our sisters, daughters, wives, girlfriends, mothers, and all women in our lives what we want for ourselves. Many men don’t want to join the priesthood because the Church still represents to them what you want it to represent. We don’t want to see women who faithfully participate in the Mass depicted as “women who like to be seen and heard performing” (as you put it). Why would you describe women — and not men involved in the same activity — in such a curmudgeonly and mean spirited way? Some angry fruit loop here even described altar girls as “cross dressing little freaks”. If you have a daughter, would you want her around people who view women that way? You claim boys will “lose interest” if girls are allowed equal participation in the liturgy. It is women and girls who are losing interest because of attitudes like yours. Non-Hispanic women have been a dramatically declining demographic in the Church. According to data from the American Catholic Laity Project, only 38% of men reported attending weekly Mass back in 1987 compared to over half of women. By 2011, percentages were roughly equal for men and women and more men than women said that the Church was one of the most important things in their lives. That may be changing. Since Pope Francis was elected and signaled a greater role for women in the Church, pews are filling up again. In the UK, it is reported that Mass attendance has risen by 20%, and attendance at Mass has soared in Italy since March, 2013. You are wrong to claim that “my way” has decimated vocations to the priesthood. The real reasons include “your way”, which has been driving a decline in organized religion by advertising it as bigoted and uncharitable, and the priestly scandals. Female religious vocations have plummeted since the sex abuse crisis and the related cover ups were revealed. Thank God for Pope Francis! He is (to the larger community at least) restoring faith in the Church.

Tony

Ethan — Look at the Episcopal church. That’s all. Dying.

Orders of sisters that have REJECTED feminism are flourishing.

Human nature does not change.

Now I begin to wonder whether you are here arguing in what’s called “bad faith.” Are you looking forward to the glad day when the Church will change her teachings on sex?

You are not married. Get back to me in 20 years and we will have a discussion about men and women in marriage.

Ethan

Ad hominems and red herrings supporting an ill considered viewpoint. You did not engage any of my arguments. Unlike the Catholic Church, the Episcopal church is not having its numbers pumped up by immigrants or by the leadership of a Pope Francis. Episcopalians, like many Catholics, are leaving for the theologically shallow but socially supportive mega churches with their big screens, rock bands, “wealth and health” message, liturgical dancers, iPhone apps, party like atmosphere, and opportunities for social involvement. As I pointed out above, feminist nuns have no reason to want to join orders after the way they have been treated. Your claim that traditional orders for nuns are flourishing is disproven by this article: http://www.religionnews.com/2014/10/13/declining-number-u-s-nuns-even-among-traditional-orders-charted-new-study/ . You have not addressed my point that Catholic women are leaving the Church faster than Catholic men. It is you that is arguing in bad faith. You want to believe that feminism is somehow responsible for decline in the Church. My facts show the reverse is true. Sexism is driving women out of the Church and men are following a few steps behind. I hope that Pope Francis’s plan to give women greater expression will stop some of the bleeding.

Athelstane

Unlike the Catholic Church, the Episcopal church is not having its numbers pumped up by immigrants or by the leadership of a Pope Francis.

1. Pope Francis, by current data, has had no measurable impact on Mass attendance or other sacraments in the U.S. I wish it were otherwise, but according to Pew and CARA, it’s not there yet.

2. You *are* correct that the Catholic Church would be in decline without hispanic immigration, which is indeed an indictment of the Church leadership here, and what sort of church it has become. But even allowing for that, it’s nothing like the free-fall collapse of the Episcopal Church (and some other mainline liberal Protestant churches). Entire dioceses and parishes are splitting off. They’re on the track for virtual extinction within 25 years.

Athelstane

3. The problem with that news story on women’s orders is that it fails to draw distinctions within LCWR and CMSWR – LCWR *does* still have some habited orders. It’s necessary to look at individual orders, order by order. Likewise, not all CMSWR orders are as traditional as others. Likewise, the survey doesn’t break down the age of those entering. Why is it that the Nashville & Ann Arbor Dominicans and the Sisters Adorers of the Royal Heart of Jesus Christ Sovereign Priest have waiting lists, while the Sinsinawa Dominicans and Notre Dame sisters basically have no vocations, and are dying off?

Athelstane

Have you not considered that orders for feminist nuns are dying because women have decided that they no longer want to be second-class citizens in an institution that diminishes their value?

Yet young women seem to be attracted to traditional women’s orders. Apparently there’s something about progressive-ized orders like, say, the Sinsinawa Dominicans that is offputting to young women.

Anglicanæ

The American egalitarianism of the 20th century transmuted the ideal of equality into “interchangeable parts.”

The feminists and Marxists have won the culture war for sure, at least within large swaths of the American Church.

Anglicanæ

“He needs to…man up to the fact that women have talents that need to be allowed to blossom.”

Um, never, ever, has this been a question of “talent”. A woman can “do” everything at the altar and in the chancel that most any man can do. A woman may have natural gifts that even excels a man in this regards, perhaps even better at oratory or preaching, maybe even a more excellent biblical expositor, or maybe even better at hearing confession.

What a woman cannot, ever, “do” is be a man ontologically. She cannot be the alter christus because she was never made to do so. She can never be a father. She can never, by nature, command the awe and reverence of men who are called to take charge.

Talent does not make a valid call. A valid call requires the right talent, but more fundamentally, requires the right person.

GG

Real man grasp authentic manhood. Real men are not indoctrinated into post modern relativism and faux equality.

Real women do not “prance” around Church in leotards.

Cooties are not the issue. False anthropology and a rapacious pursuit of power are the issue.

Romulus

Those “$30,000 outfits” are for the worship of God. Perhaps you think that’s too good for Him. You’re wrong.

Cardinal Burke understand that adolescent boys can be put off because girls the same age are technically competent and detail-oriented to a greater degree than they. They’re also more socially savvy, leaving the boys feeling outmaneuvered and intimidated.

But the Mass is more than technical execution, Ethan. It’s a sign, and to signify honestly signifiers must be true to type. Women can’t be ordained because they can’t signify as alter Christus, the Bridegroom offering himself to the Father for his spouse the Church, in a Eucharist that’s one with the heavenly wedding feast of the Lamb. No, altar boys aren’t ordained, but as ministering hands, they’re an extension and augmentation of the celebrant, underscoring the sign value of his maleness. If we desire a liturgy that speaks with clarity, why would we introduce countersigns into the sanctuary?

Cardinal Burke, being attached to the extraordinary form, sees clearly the many ways the ordinary form has been feminized, stripping the priestly sign value out of the liturgy. While the x-form is obviously vertical, silent, structured, unchanging, hierarchical, authoritative, outward-directed, and a bit remote, the ordinary form is horizontal, collaborative, chatty, spontaneous, inclusive, and approachable to the point of chumminess. The x-form sends the awe-inspiring message that we’re mystically present before God and his angels; the o-form is about as awe-inspiring as sharing cookies in your granny’s kitchen. The o-form is solicitous of everyone’s feelings, taking care that no one will feel slighted. The x-form takes no notice of our feelings, directing its attention not on us but to the Father.

The feminization of the ordinary form is so comprehensive as to be beyond debate.

Ethan

“Cardinal Burke understand that adolescent boys can be put off because girls the same age are technically competent and detail-oriented to a greater degree than they. They’re also more socially savvy, leaving the boys feeling outmaneuvered and intimidated.”
Then those boys need to man up and stop being delicate little crushed violets. All their lives they will encounter both men and women who are smarter and more competent than they are. Are you suggesting boys wimp out of a class in school just because there’s a girl who terrifies the life out of them because she’s a better student than they are? Any boy who thinks that way is either a complete wuss or a product of a more primitive bygone age. It’s time to get used to the fact that educated and competent people come in both sexes.

Romulus

Ethan, you’re not paying attention. Competence is not the point. The Mass isn’t a performance.

craig

Ethan, you are living in the past. The party line taught in schools everywhere, in pop culture (TV/movies/music), and any place else where feminism has a foothold is that girls are better, smarter, and more competent than boys. A popular tee shirt for girls says, “Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them”; mothers buy them for girls, and teachers/principals/adult leaders in charge blithely ignore the girls wearing them when they would send home or sic the law on any boy wearing an equivalent message regarding girls. Boys growing up right now hear this message every damn day of their lives.

What they need to hear is that there is a good purpose for them, a point to being born male, something worthy of their striving. If the girls are encouraged and helped by adults to sidle into and take over every historically-male pursuit, at some point the boys just declare it not worth the effort to try anymore. So put away your shaming language and convince them why it’s worth the effort.

RufusChoate

Oh please your post is sourced almost verbatim from the Odd folk over at the National Catholic Reporter. Please get better material. I have been exposed to girls pretending to be altar servers since before it was even permitted in the United States, I have never encountered a single one who served properly or reverently or even to same level of proficiency of the worse trained boy but everyone overlooks it because they are afraid to offend and the liturgy is now a a function with out a form. These hapless girls are in the sanctuary along with a herd of not so “Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist” under the banner of “we’re so special and important look at us on the altar”. .

In my experience Men who prefer and gravitate to the company of woman exclusively usually have a lot more problems psychologically than men who don’t. Most of the homosexual former Priests, I have encountered, surrounded themselves with woman acolytes while being profoundly misogynistic.

You would be surprise how many beautiful vestments are made by devoted and even heroically charitable Catholic women for use in the Mass. You would not be surprised by the number of times their magnificent vestments are rejected by the local Parish as being too elaborate and sent to the missions.

Pope Francis isn’t what you wish him to be but enjoy the fantasy while it last.

Using the term “Sexist” was the tell. Pretty pathetic.

Ethan

Other posters here are saying the opposite. They are saying altar girls perform better than altar boys. I’ve worked with both as an altar boy. How good we were at our jobs depended more on age than on sex. The younger kids (of either sex) sometimes got a bit confused and the older ones helped them out. There was camaraderie between the boys and the girls. What you say about altar girls is uncharitable and sexist.

RufusChoate

It is irrelevant what others believe to be true because they are probably as poorly catechized and unperceptive as you are.

You know I don’t much care for little boys wearing dresses and playing with dolls either so your silly resort to the inane term of sexist is further proof of you lack of coherent logic in support of an asexual priesthood and minor orders.

Altar Girls are crossdressing little freaks and any parent who lets them participate in being an Altar Servers has no right to complain when they bring their Butch Gal Pal home from College.

Patrick

Regardless of the question of allowing or disallowing altar girls (Being from a diocese that doesn’t have any, I don’t consider myself an expert on the question), you’ve got a great attitude for discouraging girls from pursuing the legitimate callings they feel that involve serving the Church by implying any vocation other than marriage means they are a lesbian.

Part of why we’re so successful in the Diocese of Lincoln is that we don’t discourage ANY vocations, nor do we treat them as “effeminate” or “butch.”

RufusChoate

Aside from the fact that the concept of a crossdressing girl usurping the role of boys at the holy sacrifice of the Mass is a clear inclination to sexual confusion it doesn’t hold up that it will produce vocations.

So… let me ponder your contention that putting a girl in the role of the formerly minor order of acolyte on the altar at Mass encourages them to join a women’s religious.

I am sorry but that is simply insane and I will bet the statistics support me more than you.

I have three daughters and laughed outright at one Priest who thought their daily attendance at Mass with My Wife and I was an indication that they would be interested in serving at mass.

Patrick

I’m trying to figure out how you read my statement that I was outright NOT commenting on altar girls (on the grounds that I have never spent more than one consecutive Sunday in any Diocese that has them, for entirely unrelated reasons), to pretending that I outright advocated it.

I was obviously referring to your insinuations of lesbianism and hyperbolic criticism of any girl you find insufficiently feminine for your tastes as disrupting girls’ desire to pursue vocations, not anything to do with them being altar girls.

It is clear that is what I was talking about because I was contrasting your attitude with the attitude of a Diocese (THAT DOES NOT HAVE ALTAR GIRLS) in which Women pursue vocations at just as exceptional a rate as the men who enter the priesthood here (which the author himself was notable enough to name-drop us).

Calling anyone “crossdressing little freaks” is going to make anyone who occasionally has existential worries regarding vocations and social roles (i.e. every teenager in the history of the world) overcompensate and possibly actively avoid considering that they might be called to a vocation that doesn’t “prove” their masculinity or femininity (and thereby, non-“freak” status) by producing children.

But if you think that you have proof that calling any girl who isn’t perpetually talking about her dream wedding and dream husband…or wanting to simply serve the Church directly in whatever ways the Church is welcoming her into a “little freak,” “butch,” and implying she’s a lesbian somehow ENCOURAGES women’s religious, then by all means, show it to me.

RufusChoate

I rescind this comment with apologies.

Patrick

Professor Esolen thought we were worthy of specific mention, if you think we’re such a poor example, take it up with him.

And again you insert a ludicrous assertion into your perception of what I said.

Not once did I say that women pursuing non-marriage vocations were “being drafted from the ranks of crossdressing freaks.”

I was trying to explain why even well adjusted, normal, feminine young women might prematurely reject their calling because they are afraid of being seen as crossdressing butch little freaks who brings their gal pal home from college (to simply concatenate some of the pejorative terms you’ve used so far) and being vocally accused of such by, say, their parents or members of their Church community.

You’re the one who jumped from “anyone who occasionally has existential worries regarding vocations and social roles (i.e. every teenager in the history of the world)” (to repeat the exact words I used) being discouraged from pursuing non-marriage vocations to “crossdressing freaks” (to use your exact words). That’s on you, not me.

But again, if you still think the statistics support shouting about “crossdressing freaks,” rather than the Diocese of Lincoln’s approach of actively supporting vocations and discouraging the sort of implications of lesbian status that so many communities start tossing around the second the subject of women pursuing any vocation but marriage is mentioned, I’d love to see it. The care they’d have to take to even gather statistics on something like that would be impressive enough that I’d want to read it for that alone.

Patrick

I appreciate that, thank you.

I know how hard it is to not simply defend anything one has already said to the death, trust me.

I would remove my responses too, but not having bothered to make an account, I can’t seem to edit them. I guess that’s a lesson to me too.

RufusChoate

Cheers.

ColdStanding

It really is very simple. Ecumenism, as defined by Cardinal Bea, is the episcopal policy, ie the official guiding principle of the bishops, since the council in question. Anything offensive to the separated brothers in project of the reconstitution of the Church of Christ, which means any of the supposed accretions that present in an examination of the Roman Catholic Church, seeing as they claim that the Church of Christ only subsists in the Catholic Church, have to go.

Priests make sacrifice. The idea of making a sacrifice is offensive to Protestant soteriology. Therefore priests, the offering of a sacrifice (according to the immemorial understanding of it), and the idea of the priesthood have to go if their program of ecumenism is to be achieved. If Roman Catholics won’t go along, they have vowed to find others that will go along. Roman Catholics can get out for all they care.

Now you know why there are no priests: policy. It is controlled demolition of the priesthood of the Catholic Church. It is a tough nut to crack, but it isn’t for want of trying that they haven’t totally succeeded heretofore. But it “has been a damned nice thing — the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life” applying the Duke of Wellington’s words.

Now, it is utter lunacy that there is no such thing as a priesthood that offers a sacrifice. Jesus Christ is King, Priest, Prophet and Sacrifice. Cardinal Bea, Koenig, Karl Rahner, de Lubac, et al. are wrong, every last one of them, in a way that can only come from having lost the faith. They doubted the that the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church = the Church that Jesus Christ founded. Heresy. Everything that follows is reversion to nothingness.

Modernism is standing in way and separating you from the Holy Catholic Church. Your job, your vocation, your service to Jesus Christ is to defeat it.

cestusdei

Most altar boys would cringe at these things and they do. No wonder vocations declined. We need real men at the altar.

RufusChoate

We need real men in every aspect of the social order.

Joe

I have witnessed just about everything Anthony describes above, which validates everything Card.. Burke recently said. The secular media has no problem ridicculing Card. Burke as though he’s some kind of imbecile- of course with no fair counterpoint. Authors of such articles probably have never stepped foot in a Catholic Church and could care less about it otherwise, except to use it as target practice. The Church is losing badly in the court of public opinion. Who will step forward and try to get a piece published in the Op-ed of a major newspaper to support him?

GG

It is not just the secular media, but the Catholic media who is criticizing Cardinal Burke.

Athelstane

Certainly a certain wing of the Catholic media – Crux News, National Catholic Reporter, and Commonweal. In other news, water is wet. They did not like him in the first place.

Tony

A question to pose to anybody who disagrees with the premise of the article:

“Many people have given their daughters ambiguous names, ones that were once reserved only for boys: Taylor, Ashley, Madison, and so forth. Will you name your son Lynn? Why not?”

Or: “Girls are allowed to wear boys’ clothes or men’s clothes — a jacket and shirt and tie, for instance. Will you put your son in a skirt? Will you put a bonnet on his head?”

Or: “If you, a man, think that the Church is wrong about reserving the priesthood to men, why do you not immediately put yourself under the obligation of obeying a woman pastor in one of the liberal Protestant churches?” I mean “obeying,” not “doing whatever you please.”

Patrick

In indirect answer to your first question, times change.

Young boys wearing frilly pink or white dresses and beaded or feathery hats was considered perfectly masculine and not remotely out of the ordinary at one time too. Not even that long ago.

It has only been in living memory that pink stopped being a “boys’ color” associated with strength and masculinity.

Tony

You are ignoring the point. It was also not long ago that boys were named Lynn and Gail and Leslie. Field hockey was invented by British soldiers in India. The point is that once something is perceived as proper to girls, boys check out. And so do almost all of their feminist mothers and fathers. You would not now name your son Lynn. The fact that people USED to name their sons Lynn proves my point. You would not now dress your son in a skirt, regardless of what some people in some age and some place did. We are talking here ONLY ABOUT FASHIONS, which are relatively unimportant. The priesthood is not.

That said — certain kinds of ACTIONS, rather than fashions, have been perceived as effeminate, across cultures and throughout history. It is remarkable how male and female characters in all of the literatures of the world are easily recognizable to us as male and female.

Patrick

I’m not ignoring the point. I’m saying you’re treating some traits that are NOT intrinsically masculine or feminine as if they are intrinsic (and included more than a few in your list), and suggested some sort of feminine appropriation is at fault, when they are simply things of this world which change with the times.

It used to be that my name, Patrick, was not something you named a child. It was too important to dilute it with non-saints running around being named that, so at most people were given names referencing it but notably different. That went on for 12 centuries. Now it’s considered a good, proud name for an Irish Catholic boy to have. Now we’d rather boys live up to a namesake saint than a namesake person-named-sort-of-obliquely after a saint.

Tony

I did not say anything about the name Lynn being intrinsically feminine, or about wearing a certain kind of shirt being intrinsically feminine. You read that into what I said. I almost said precisely the opposite. Please look at what I said about field hockey. The point is that once X is perceived as pertaining principally to girls — such as the name Lynn — then boys duck out of it. You do not name your son Lynn. You might name your daughter Madison.

There are, of course, plenty of things that are really masculine or feminine. The question is really very simple. Do you want three times as many vocations to the priesthood as we have now, or do you not? The effeminate liturgies lose the interest of boys and men. Do you care about that, or do you not? These are extraordinarily important matters. My heart sinks whenever I hear that a church or a Catholic school is being shut down….

craig

They. Don’t. Care. If the Church must suffer so that feminism may thrive, they see that as a good trade. It’s ideology, maybe even idolatry.

Patrick

Isn’t the argument for traditional marriage still that women provide an important complimentary influence on men?

Men *want* to go grunting through the woods, or getting in scraps with their friends at the bar, or left to their own devices tend to make buildings in merely a place to keep things with no beauty to them.

Women provide a civilizing influence, don’t they? Men aren’t necessarily inclined to want to learn to appreciate nuanced flavors of food or careful decoration. Women teach us to appreciate the things that aren’t the epitome of masculinity.
Whenever we’re talking about marriage, we all agree that’s a good, complimentary influence, and that women are influenced in complimentary ways likewise.
Why is it different here?

The inside of the Cathedral shouldn’t look like a Cabela’s store any more than it should look like a Joann Fabrics.

craig

Women do not civilize men, period. What women do is make men want to build civilization. Most of the great and beautiful achievements of civilization (Christian or not) were designed and built entirely by men. And if men are just going to be treated as ancillary to family and society, they aren’t going to put forth the effort to build civilization, and it won’t get built. All uncivilized places you go, you will see men sitting idle in the mid-day — but you won’t see women building things either.

Also, the odds of a cathedral looking like a Cabela’s are nil (but it would help if the priests grew beards as in the East; there’s more substance to that practice than immediately apparent). The odds of it looking like a Joann Fabrics is approximately 98%.

Tony

Thank you, Craig.

I’ve sometimes said that women domesticate men — they make them fit companions for them and their children. But civilization is something else. It is men who civilize men (and boys). That is, they persuade them to join teams that do things like build a cathedral, or carve a tunnel through a mountain, and so forth.

Domestication is a great good. Civilization is a different good.

You are right too in saying that there is zero chance that any Catholic church will ever be a Clint Eastwood Caricature. Mary is everywhere. The Child Jesus is there. Calls to humility are there. Warnings against the typical male sins are there.

I challenge my interlocutors here whose parish sings the wet sloppy twaddle to name for me a single hymn they have sung in the last five years that has any resonance for manliness. Those songs are all gone.

Finally — my last comment, really — I knew twenty years ago that feminists were too blockheaded to draw any distinctions between manliness and moronic machismo. But those feminists have been around a long time now, and still, when people hear “manhood,” they think of Brad Pitt shooting a rifle or something cartoonish and stupid. (The feminists hate femininity, too, but that’s another argument.)

M

At some point, stereotyping becomes bigotry.

Patrick

To oversimplify somewhat for the sake of brevity, I don’t go to Mass for a dose of manliness, that’s more than satisfied by university sports on Saturday. The cultural effect I appreciate being packaged with the Sacrament is, well, peace. Relief from the constant anxieties of all varieties whirling around us.

Songs about brotherhood and joy and love in that context provide something that isn’t easily found in the rest of society or culture.

Maybe it’s different for someone who doesn’t struggle with depression, but those themes are simply more powerful to me if for no other reason than that they are so often absent anywhere else.

I don’t normally condone violence, but everyone in that video should be lined up and shot in the face.

Anglicanæ

Yikes.

RufusChoate

Dang Buddy,

You would not be able to afford your ammo bill and have a full time job in my diocese if this wimpy nonsense upset you to violence.

I realize it is hyperbole.

Marcelus

“Only in America ” Don King

MBayette

First of all, this kind of performance art, while beautiful
in itself given the right context, does not belong in the Mass.

Secondly, as a Catholic woman who converted from
Episcopalianism, I have seen firsthand and in depth where the feminization of
the church can lead, and the verdict is not good. It leads to a lot of
confusion in terms of theology, worship, organization, and service. “I’m
okay, you’re okay” seemed to be the guiding maxim where I went to church.
This led to changes in the liturgy aimed at avoiding any cause for offense by
one supposedly disenfranchised group or another. Women and gay men, who were
valued by the community for their gentleness and sensitivity, were the pastoral
leaders and comprised the majority of committee members in all areas of church
governance except for ushers, finance, and the building committee. It should
come as no surprise that they made up a large part of the applicant pool for
holy orders. The counterpoint to this trend was the departure of young and middle-aged
men and traditional families from the pews. They left to join the new Anglican Church
in town or to reconsider the Catholicism of their youth.

I came home to the Catholic Church for a several reasons, a
few of which tie into my wrestling with this issue of feminization in the
Episcopal Church. I wanted my son to grow up having active, vital heterosexual
men as role models for the Christian life. I wanted our family to be one of
many who are committed to the values associated with traditional marriage. I
sought a Church where, as I am fond of saying, the center holds. Catholics have
the Magisterium; anything does not go. Furthermore, I am not okay; you are not
okay. We are sinners in need of a savior. I have long known the hard truth
about myself, and I wanted to be on the spiritual journey with others who were
willing to face into it with me. This leads me to the most significant change I
have experienced to date: The Catholic understanding of the complementarity of
gender roles is freeing to me. Our pastor at the Catholic parish my family now
attends is attuned to this issue and leads out of his masculinity. We know
where the boundaries are. Instead of being distracted by reinventing ourselves
all the time, we can dive deeper into an authentic Christian spirituality, the
spirituality that was good enough for the saints. And if it was good enough for
them, it is good enough for me!

St JD George

Spot on, amen! It was mentioned a few months ago, but I can’t think of too many books from that era more corrosive to the human condition than that one. They should all be gathered up for a book burning – ha!

Anglicanæ

Great post. My wife has a great testimony, as it were, being an ex-feminist. Since converting from Reform Judaism (baptized into the Holy Trinity on Easter 2011), she’s been an avowed complementarian and stalwart enemy of the Bra Burning Brigade.

Cynthia Kron

Very interesting! I am a Jewish convert too but was raised Conservative.

We’re on the road to nowhere!

The video: It’s Wiccan Magic Time!
It’s Voodoo Time!

The_Monk

Who thinks this “performance art” in place of reading the solemn Word of God is pleasing to the Holy Spirit?…

Anglicanæ

More than that, it’s a stumbling block to the hearers, making the liturgy into entertainment. It succeeds neither as good liturgy nor good entertainment.

Marianne

Take those shenanigans to the Parish Life Center and leave the sacred space for the rest of us.

MBayette

At its proper time, in its proper place performance art may be pleasing to the Holy Spirit. The Mass is neither the time, nor the place. About this we are in agreement, my friend.

Seamrog

Apparently it was important that they remained barefooted as they ran around the altar.

Marianne

Pagan nymphs running around Stonehenge under the light of a full moon?

St JD George

I don’t know why I didn’t notice the first time, but I just saw it passing again and noted the reference to being a parish in Berkeley, CA. Well no wonder, now I understand. In that light I accept this to be a perfectly normal Eucharist dance recital for that part of the world.

Samuel63

Great article. The altar girls are an obvious reason we lack vocations. However, the banal nature of the mass today is also an obvious reason but this one may hit the subconscious more directly. The result is the same. It begs the question that young men may ask themselves such as, “why would I want to even consider being a priest in an environment like this?” The partial answer to all of this is rather simple. The subversion of the church depends on charitable donations. Just stop donating. There are plenty of good and faithful organizations and orders that are spreading the faith. Donate to these instead.

djc

Saint John Paul II was the one who allowed altar girls.

Samuel63

He was the one, and I respect all of his infallible proclamations.

djc

I agree w/you.

Cristina

It’s interesting that we, as physical beings, have abandoned our very outwardly catholic traditions in favour of something that is reminiscent of theatre (cough, cough – see video). Our new priest here in vancouver, Canada has reintroduced receiving communion at the alter rail, and it speaks volumes to this heart that grew up in a parish which was once beautiful and now lies white washed. This good priest has also introduced beautiful art including statues and you can tell, by his postures during the Eucharistic prayer and even his homilies, that he truly believes what he is saying and doing. The funny thing is my 2 year old son has noticed the difference with this priest, and pretends to be him and only this priest. May God bless those priests that are orthodox and call back those priests that, in their misguided fervor, have strayed.

musicacre

We have a great priest on Vancouver Island also! Yay for prayers being answered…maybe not all at once, but we must be grateful when we see the Holy spirit at work!!

Dylan Drego

Attending Tridintine Mass is not a solution to fixing the non liturgical liberalities taking place in the Novus Ordo. I love both forms!

Anglicanæ

And the solution is…?

Dylan Drego

The solution is to stop the liberalities and to celebrate the Novus Ordo the way it was intended to be celebrated; the Novus Ordo is beautiful, it honours & preserves the richness and fullness of the Catholic Faith. Liturgical dance (and any other liberal abuse) is not, has never been and should not be in the Mass. How dare we grasp at “improving” the liturgy, we come to worship our Blessed Lord the way He wants to be worshiped. How foolish to think that we could add anything to His sacrifice to make it more pleasing…
Thankfully there are still priests who celebrate the Novus Ordo beautiflly. Seek them out and thank them. Encourage others to attend the liturgy done well. The true beauty of liturgy will speak for itself.
Blessings

Anglicanæ

Then, for the love of all that is good, rise up and reform. The NO doesn’t have to be the wreck it’s become.

BXVI

The new generation of priests are mostly heterosexual. Pope Benedict wisely put a ban on any new homosexual priests in the midst of the abuse scandal that has not yet been lifted. And, it is not an accident that a return to emphasis on the dignity and importance of the liturgy under Pope Benedict resulted in a “boomlet” of priestly vocations after many years of decline. It is abundantly clear that parishes that are basically “traditional” in both their liturgy and orthodox in their theology beget vocations, while progressivist, modernist parishes produce virtually none.
But there will always be only a small percentage who are called to the priesthood. I believe one major and dramatic answer to this problem could be a dramatic expansion of the permanent diaconate. If every Catholic parish had ten red-blooded men (typically also husbands and fathers) as deacons, things would change. Masculinity and dignity would be returned to the parish and the liturgy, and more men would be drawn to the Church. I also think that having many real men involved in the parish as ordained deacons would lead more of their sons and grandsons to seriously consider the priesthood.
So, men, do you want to do something about the feminization of our Church? Have you considered whether you are called to the diaconate?

Rick

Great point, the sad thing is most of these effeminate priests, bishops and cardinals we have come in during the pontificate of St. John Paul, does anybody else have a serious problem with this!!!! This crisis in the Church occured during the pontificates of St. John XXIII, Pope Paul VI and the worst of it during the pontificate of St. John Paul. It wasn’t until Pope Benedict XVI that they started to seriously address the issue and they still have a long way to go. This modernist error is not heresy it is a theological cancer and the patient is dying.

Patrick

Most of ALL priests currently serving would naturally have been ordained during the period in question. Even the particularly masculine ones.

The beginning of the pontificate of St. John Paul to the beginning of Pope Benedict XVI’s papacy accounts for 27 of the last 37 years?
Now consider that anyone old enough to become a priest prior to 1978 would be within 7 years of retirement and only 10 years after that period. Add 5 years to the beginning for bishops and cardinals and it’s still almost precisely half of that range.

Rick

Of course we have some incredible priests and bishops in the Church, I wish there were more in my area but they are not. What I was saying was the screening process in the seminaries changed in the 60’s through the 90’s there were a lot of men that never should have been allowed to be come shepherds of Church allowed into seminaries and a number of seminaries here in the United States became dens of homosexual behavior. There were also a lot of men who had a calling but either were screened out for being to traditional or once in the seminary were so disturbed by what was going on they got out. I know this not simply by reading about it but from men that were in seminary at the time. Next thing you know there is a pandemic in the Church of priests molesting young boys that has bankrupted whole dioceses. Who were the Popes during that period? Paul VI and John Paul II. There has always been wheat and tarres in the Church, good shepherds and wolves, in my life time it have been the wolves in lavender fleeces that have caused the greatest damage to Holy Mother Church, and they gained there power and position inside the Church during the pontificate of John Paul II.

Patti Day

Anthony, You so got it in this article. As I write there are already 192 comments. I am sending this to my bishop and I’m putting my name on it.

Jonah

I say, you’ve been to Australia recently, haven’t you.

Countryman

Professor you must have visited my former parish. The DRE and the Liturgical director/Choir Director were women and they ruled the roost. The parish council was mostly women and jelly backs content with the status quo. No new ideas or ministries were considered. All they wanted was our money. We now drive 50 miles to a much more alive and vibrant parish. I do see the warning signs. I am not sure if feminization is the cause or simply women filling the void left by men who could care less about there faith. As Lay director for an upcoming CRHP(Christ Renews His Parish) retreat we have spent countless hours personally inviting and talking to men about attending with little success. It seems the women are anxious and driven to take up a greater role in their parish and their faith while the men are indifferent at best. What can I do about it? How can I change this heartbreaking trend?

I do think that that the emasculation of men is the root cause of the efemininization of the liturgy in particular and of the Church in general.

Rick

I would agree that it is the fact that these emasculated men that continue to take their families to a parish lead by an effeminate priest, a protestantized mass with a small army of extra ordinary ministers of communion and altar girls. Any of those things in a Catholic Parish will cause me to only enter that doorway once and not a dime of my money goes in that collection plate. Men need to take their families out of these parishes and find one that honors God. Don’t let this crisis turn you from the faith of all time, find a good priest as a confessor that is truly a man of God, sometimes it takes time do the research lead your family as God has called all men to do. Defund these frauds and offer your hard earned money to those good shepherds practicing the True faith. Defund the wolves and the quicker they will whither on the vine.

Hmm… If you are a woman, have some tough guy confront them and tell them that they are wishy-washy good-for-nothings abandoning their duty to God, their church, and their families, and that if they want to be atheists, they should have the courage of their apostasy, but that if they want to be Catholics, it is time they grew up already. That, and a good steak and some beer!

Countryman

What makes you think I’m not a tough guy? Hopefully I’m past that part of my life. I thought when you grew up you got past all that macho stuff. Your method might work in some areas but I don’t think it would bring those that have lost their faith to return to the flock. Thanks for your reply though it made me smile. Blessings,

Tony

Excuse me, but I thought we were talking about men who had not lost their faith but who had grown indifferent or negligent. I understand that it is hard to determine someone’s tone of voice from a short message, but I’d have thought that the reference to good food and drink would have cleared up the matter. The point is that with men a direct statement of fact, delivered with good humor but inflexible certainly, from some man whom they respect, can often work wonders. It has with me…..

Countryman

Tony, no offense taken. To me men that are indifferent or negligent have lost their faith. I have done street evangelization for some time now and I can tell you that is much easier than getting a guy that goes to Sunday church to take the next step in his faith. The difference being the guy on the street is doing nothing in his faith and recognizes that he needs to change that. The guy who is sitting in the pews thinks that an hour a week is all he needs to do. The message from the pulpit does little to convince him otherwise. He doesn’t feel compelled to support his faith financially or by his actions. He sees no reason to engage his faith at a higher level. Now talk about sports scores or draft picks and he will talk into the night with great enthusiasm. Ask him what Scripture passage he finds interesting and you will get a blank look. We even tried bringing in a local sports star who had gone on to a very successful NBA career to speak to local men. He gave one of the most compelling presentations I’ve ever heard on how his faith had been a guide and the primary reason for his success. During the reception that followed not a single question or comment was directed to him about what he said in his speech. All they wanted to talk about was basketball. My parish is blessed with a number of fine examples of strong men that are successful and engaged in their faith. They have been at it longer than I have with the same results. A CRHP weekend is exactly what you suggest without the beer and the bar room(we do serve steaks). It is a time were strong men give their personal witness to the difference their faith has made in their lives. How do we get them to come, how do we get their attention long enough to deliver the message we have?
Maybe we should have Father dribble up the center isle and make a jump shot before he starts Mass or start serving Budweiser instead of wine for Communion.

Alas, chuck away all hymns! None is needed. The norm is to use the prescribed antiphons for the Mass. The rubrics allow for alternatives in exceptional circumstances and the alternative to pick arbitrary hymns lies at the bottom of the list.

Patrick

Funny that, in the Diocese that was praised in the article for doing things right, hymns are a BIG DEAL.

It’s almost like there’s a lot of self-styled experts just presenting their opinions as fact around here.

ForChristAlone

“It’s almost like there’s a lot of self-styled experts just presenting their opinions as fact around here.”

And yet, here you are on this site! Hmmmm….

Patrick

I was merely presenting my experiences from a diocese that’s considered to be “doing it right.” I was merely presenting a different view on music and singing, not saying it’s objective truth.

somebigguy

I have only one thing to say to self-styled Archbishop Niederauer and his appalling ilk: Are you f*cking kidding? A purely rhetorical question, I admit, because they quite clearly aren’t.
No wonder the Church in America is in such a sorry state. How these hippies got so far in the institution Christ founded simply boggles the Catholic mind.

forest for the trees

1 Corinthians 9.5

Rick

Mr. Esolen nails it, should be required reading for every Catholic. The shocking thing to me about the video is that the priest is probably in full communion with his bishop and Rome, never questioned about how he has altered the mass or how orthodox his homilies are. Then you have the FSSP that tries to establish a parish in a dioceses that the bishop allowes that madness to go on but the FSSP has to jump through hoops to bring tradition to the diocese. The Church has a heretical fever and priests like the one in the video are the virus, starve a fever. If you attend a parish where the priest does not teach the traditional faith of the Catholic Church leave it and find one that does. Do not put your money in their collection plates. If you have a progressive Bishop running your Diocese do not fund their annual campaigns because your money is being used to sustain this fraud and fund things no orthodox Catholic should put his money into. These heredical effemenates that claim to be Holy Roman Catholic priests are a complete fraud it is like giving money to Martin Luther or Arias, just say no!

D. Petar Jarnevic

Have you ever considered attending and praying at the celebration of the Divine Liturgy in an Eastern Rite Catholic Church? Most of the ones that I know have at least one Sunday liturgy in English, with none of the nonsense that Professor Esolen describes in his article. I encourage you to do so. You will very likely be warmly welcomed, and you will be able to pray without those ridiculous distractions. One point however: In most Eastern Rites, standing rather than kneeling, accept for sitting during the epistle reading and sermon, and several other short times, is the normal posture — even after receiving our Lord in Holy Communion. It is, done properly, a very reverent posture, and the Eastern-Rite Catholics seem to be able to do it for hours! Of course, those who are weaker from age or illness can pray very reverently while sitting.

jacobum

Dr Esolen, you are gifted writer. Thanks for another great article. Bookmarked it. Double bookmarked the “Fairies, Flags & Flakes” video. Suggest a link to it be used as a reply in support of Cdl Burke’s recent remarks on the “effeminate” Church. The good Cardinal clearly states the Truth and our CINO friends go into orbit.

Tim Danaher

Prof Esolen, great posting as usual. This article hits close to home. Could never understand why my father always wanted to go to Mass at the (Kansas City) Cathedral or Old St. Patricks and eventually quit going to Mass at our Jesuit parish after the kids left the house. Now I know. I attended a great parish in North Carolina, where the pastor celebrated both the EF and OF (ad orientum), for three years before moving back to Georgia. Just as my father suffered through horrible Masses in the wake of VCII, I am suffering a similar rift I my Mass expirience. I was at first angry about going to Mass, but now I’m just disappointed. Sad to say, but when my mother and I die, we will probably be the last practicing Catholics in the family. Everyone else have joined Protestant denominations or ceases to practice the faith. May the spirit of renewal come to the US Church.

Athelstane

Could never understand why my father always wanted to go to Mass at the (Kansas City) Cathedral or Old St. Patricks…

I had some friends in KC who had the same perplexity. They were attending one of the big suburban parishes north of the river. They were growing frustrated by it, especially after the more tradition-minded young parochial vicar there was given his own parish.

Then they started attending the Oratory at Old St. Patrick’s a few months ago – at first out of curiosity. They haven’t looked back since.

Glenn M. Ricketts

No surprise there.

Thomas Sharpe

I sincerely thought the photo was a created in Photoshop, please forgive my innocence.

Athelstane

I sometimes wonder whether we Catholics actually want vocations to the priesthood.

At least a few bishops did not, and were quite open about it – restricting myself to retired bishops, one thinks of Ken Untener of Saginaw, and Matthew Clark in Rochester.

For most others, my sense is that while they’d like vocations, they’ll only take them on their terms, even if no one is buying. And they’d rather their church die than admit they were wrong.

Glenn M. Ricketts

That was the constant complaint of Bishop Eldon Curtis of Nebraska, of happy memory – there were more than adequate vocations, he observed, but the good men were screened out by hostile seminaries who were more interested in knowing whether they were “open” to women’s ordination, “receptive to change,” etc., etc. And so many of those poor fools actually thought that their orthodoxy would stand them in good stead. And if they were, by chance, accepted as candidates, a number of them – as I know from first-hand testimony – quickly found that they were outnumbered by others with libidinal tendencies distiinctlly unsuited to the priesthood.

Athelstane

You may be aware that Dr. Joseph Shaw, the Latin Mass Society (UK) Chairman, recently had a blog post arguing that Curtiss, Michael Rose, Dwight Longenecker, et all had overstated this problem – in short, that it was a position adopted by some Catholic conservatives to avoid facing more fundamental issues that were killing vocations in the Church – because they don’t want to blame the liturgical reform.

I think there’s some truth to that (though I think that many of people who make these arguments tend to traditional on liturgy anyway); the number of bishops who have done this are fewer than some might suggest, and there are fewer of them today than there were in the 1980’s and 90’s. But they do exist. I’m not 100% sure which diocese Tony Esolen is speaking of above, but I believe it’s one of the few with that mindset.

The deconstruction of the liturgy *is* part of the problem, but that in turn is part of a larger theological deconstruction that has taken place, indeed, was taking place in the decades before the Council – one which works to diminish those aspects of our teaching that the world finds most offputting or offensive, like Sacrifice, the Four Last Things, confession, cult of the saints, traditional devotions, the sacramental priesthood. As it turns out, these are precisely the things that drive priestly vocations. The seminary directors you reference didn’t want any of that, regardless of whether they were gunning for women priests. You can see the results.

But such people are past the point where they can admit they are wrong.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Thanks, I wasn’t aware of Dr. Shaw’s piece, although I’m familiar with his work. It’s no doubt due to multiple factors, of which the liturgical reform is one. I do think, however, that it’s the most visible sign of disarray that people of whatever theological inclination encounter most directly. And when you compare the celebration of Mass now with the way it was back in the day, that’s where you’ll most likely have the Rip van Winkle experience.

Athelstane

Yes, I think that, were you to time travel a Catholic from a typical American parish of 100 or even 80 (or perhaps even 60) years ago to the same typical parish of today for a random Mass, he or she would wonder if it was the same religion. And one could not blame him or her for wondering.

Certainly the liturgy is the most immediately obvious manifestation of the revolution that has taken place.

Patrick

Not sure what Lincoln, Nebraska you’re talking about, but the one where I live has plenty of music lead by women, and the songs that always get the entire congregation singing are the ones about loving others and peace and all those “feminine” sorts of things. There are even occasional soloists on instruments other than organ. Most of the readers are women too.

There aren’t that many altar rails (Nothing wrong with them, but they’re mostly only in the smaller parishes), most people taking communion in the hand (85% I’d estimate).

The Cathedral is pretty modern-architecture-y, and a number in the city even moreso.

The pews in the “Old Cathedral” are a little too close together for people of modern height to kneel in without ending up on top of the feet of the fellow in front of you.

The Stations of the Cross there are a little on the small side and difficult do make out as more than a wooden square from a distance since they are straightforward carefully rendered reliefs instead of something ostentatious.

All of the schools are co-ed, especially the ones with more classrooms than students since they are in parishes where there simply aren’t that many children.

As far as I know, Pius has both men’s and women’s teams for every sport they have teams for, except volleyball, football, and wrestling (I’m counting softball/baseball together). That includes even diving, golf and tennis.

Maybe it’s just because the public school district is top-tier, but both the public and private schools give about the same (extremely high) quality of education… though not having attended both sides, I can’t give a detailed comparison, so I can only speak on results and the opinions I’ve heard of parents/graduates/educational professionals in the city.

Instead, we have two seminaries.

We have RCIA classes that ALL adult parishioners are encouraged to attend, maybe even again as a refresher if it’s been a decade–in fact, RCIA isn’t presented here as a class for converts, but as a class for everyone which those who are required to take. That’s how it’s been for a generation.

We have a culture that tries to avoid the suspicion and side-eyed looks that non-married-vocation members of the community get so many other places. There is a huge focus on social services, even eccumenical ones.

We have Benedictine Sisters, Carmelite Sisters, Franciscan Apostolic Sisters, Franciscan Sisters of the Sorrowful Mother, Notre Dame Sisters, Marian Sisters, Sisters of Mercy, Sisters of St. Frances of the Martyr St. George, Adorers of the Blood of Christ, Sister Servants of the Holy Spirit of Perpetual Adoration, Congregation of Missionary Sisters of the Blessed Virgin Mary Queen of Mercy, Schoenstatt Sisters of Mary, Hijas de la Pasion de Jesucristo, School Sisters of St. Francis, School Sisters of Christ the King, and Handmaids of the Holy Child Jesus. We realize that vocations aren’t an intrinsically masculine subject.

In the process of presenting your preconceived list of what drives vocations, and presenting it as if it’s what’s happening in another place, you’ve managed to overlook a great deal of what actually makes our Diocese so successful.

We didn’t become this successful by grumbling about things “becoming feminized,” that’s for sure.

RufusChoate

Being the analytical killjoy that earns me so many plaudits. I researched your diocese’s statistics compared to my area of the country. Lincoln appears to be pretty average in comparison and ratio.

Apparently the great plains isn’t the only thing great in Lincoln: self regard is right up there.

Patrick

I didn’t insert the name of my city into the article. If you don’t think we’re notable enough to comment on mention of our success, maybe you should take it up with the author who thought we were notable enough for mention in the first place.

Though the steak is pretty good here too. 🙂

RufusChoate

Sorry I am bordering on rude. My apologies

Joan59

Oh, you are far, far, far more than rude.

Tony

The diocese also has an FSSP seminary, so that messes up the numbers. There are two priests in every church. I did not pick Lincoln because everything is perfect there — the cathedral is a modern one with some good stained glass windows and some really strange stuff.

I wonder sometimes now whether people can read. I did not say that Lincoln had any all-male schools. Most of the article is not about Lincoln at all. Patrick — I said IF YOU HAVE ONE OF THOSE, make it co-ed. Or do you doubt that a disproportionate number of vocations come from all-male Catholic high schools?

You’ve never had altar girls in Lincoln. Why don’t you tell people that? I was also told that the designation of “lector” was reserved for men. Perhaps I was told wrong. I know quite well how many sisters you have. Doesn’t that make you wonder whether that too is a reason why other dioceses should emulate you? You have not suffered the liturgical abuses that characterize all the other dioceses. Doesn’t that mean anything?

Take my article to your bishop and ask him what he thinks of it. I’ll delightedly concede to anything he says.

Athelstane

You’ve never had altar girls in Lincoln.

That is certainly something that is true of no other diocese in North America – and worth noting.

Patrick

I agree the cathedral has some odd decisions in the architecture, etc. I prefer St. Mary’s, which was previously the cathedral.

I didn’t mean to imply you were saying Lincoln had an all-male school, I was clarifying that all the schools here have been co-ed from the start, so far as I know.

I have said more than once that we have never had altar girls, specifically that having lived here my whole life, I can’t really comment on the phenomenon, as I haven’t ever seen it, except on the occasional trip to visit out-of-state family.

Lector is reserved for men, yes. Reader, at least here, is a separate, distinct position with different roles.

And I wasn’t listing reasons why others shouldn’t emulate us. I’m proud of what we accomplish and I’m honored that we were mentioned.

I just think your list has less to do with the success than the positive efforts we make that wouldn’t be as obvious to someone from elsewhere and I apologize if I came off as too adversarial, I just really think it’s about what we do, not about what we don’t.

In particular the approach to RCIA we have. It’s consistently presented as something all adult Catholics should take at least once, rather than something that is just for those who wish to convert to Catholicism. I vaguely remember when that approach was first implemented when I was still too young, but it’s been going strong for a couple decades now and (though I haven’t looked at the numbers in a long time) for a while we consistently had the highest number of attendees nationwide.

Mostly my only qualm was there didn’t seem to me to be a clear enough distinction in the article between the liturgical abuses and the “feminization” theme–which I think is overstated.

The presence of feminine influences is readily apparent, and not negative at all (particularly as so much is thanks to the sisters or the many charitable efforts run largely by women in the community). It seems to characterize pretty well the “civilizing influence” of the feminine on the masculine.

Athelstane

Minor point: You can’t blame the Cathedral in Lincoln on the conservative bishops who have led Lincoln since the late 60’s (Flavin, Bruskewitz, and Conley) – all of them would have preferred a more traditional building. It was constructed back in the 50’s. They’ve been stuck with it.

Major point: You’ve indicated many things that characterize Lincoln. But most of these could also be said of many other dioceses. What is it that Lincoln has been doing that has encouraged so many vocations that other dioceses do NOT do?

Patrick

Sorry I didn’t see and reply to this sooner, it’s a long comments section!

I wasn’t blaming anything on or for the Cathedral’s design, and while it is strange, there is a fair bit of beauty in it if you look for it. It’s not lovely to a passive observer, but if you’re studying it analytically it’s not as bad as people make out, and it doesn’t seem to be keeping anyone away, so I’m not going to criticize more than lightly.

And yes, I did list a number of things that are much like other places. I was largely trying to demonstrate that our success is not due to avoiding any particular list of things, but in the active things we do, particularly regarding adult education in the faith. (The best example I can give is encouraging ALL adult Catholics to attend an RCIA class at least once and maybe even taking it again as a refresher occasionally)

Also, I don’t see the feminine involvement in the Church community here (at least in the city of Lincoln) as being in any way detrimental to the Church or to vocations. They do a lot of great work that helps pull the community closer together.

OttFatherofTwo

So well written. He is right about Canadian schools. In Ontario, the catholic schools are run by the government. The Premier is a lesbian and the catholic teachers union (OECTA) does things like march in Gay Pride parades:

“But I have begun to wonder whether some of our leaders are animated by a death-wish for a Church in which they no longer really believe.” Read this book, written in 1972. You will be amazed. Hitchcock said THEN that the people who had been behind all the radical changes didn’t believe in the Catholic Church anymore, that they had changed everything to the way they wanted it and found that what they got was not worth believing in. I think a lot of very vocal people don’t believe in God, but in some sort of amorphous “being good” and “helping the poor.” They sure seem to be on a religious version of the below replacement birthrate for the West: Destroying themselves and everyone else too.

…the people who had been behind all the radical changes didn’t believe in the Catholic Church anymore, that they had changed everything to the way they wanted it and found that what they got was not worth believing in.

I don’t think that was true of all of the “reform” brigade but I think it was true of many of them. It is remarkable how often I find, in talking to such people of that age, that their dissent goes far, far beyond the liturgy. Many do not even accept the Resurrection or Virgin Birth, or the historicity of the Gospels.

The Hitchcock book is an important one. Well recommended.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Right. Many people have been making that point for a very long, long time, even as VII was still in session. Unfortunately, the unbelievers have largely controlled the Church’s destinies since that time.

fintic

Ugh. Another suggestion to quash vocations: “stir up internal disagreements rather than practice Christian charity or give cause for your joy.” Pointing out others sins, I trust, remains the sin of detraction. Your small-minded snark repulses fellow traditionally mind men like me, rather than attracts. Less time spent blogging and bemoaning, more time spent practicing Christian charity. We younger men are not interested in reliving old battles, thank you.

Anglicanæ

Funny, the young traditional men I know are on the same page as Esolen.

Regardless, Esolen speaks the truth.

fintic

Village gossips speak the truth, too. The mark of Christian truth-telling is that it is done with discerned love, with an eye towards reform and consolation of the hearer. By contrast, this article fills our sails (yes, mine too) with indignation *at caricatured others* and equips people with fractious language that ultimately wounds the Church. We don’t overcome these ills with petty snark — which is decidedly unmasculine — but with Christian love.

Anglicanæ

Your words are only half true.

Gossip veils true charity because it delights in broadcasting the secret faults (supposed or real) of others, while foregoing the hard work of confrontation.

Anthony Esolen is denouncing the thing that is plainly known: femenization of theology (and by necessity the Mass) kills a culture of exploration of the priesthood by boys. This is no secret fault, rather a public scandal with wide and deep implications. It’s a destructive ideology that perpetuates this anti-culture and ought to be called out as such.

Mr. Esolen’s words are discernibly loving because we are talking about public rebellion in the Church largely gone unchecked. If truth is not spoken in accordance with the severity of the sin, it is diluted and ceases to be love or truth.

The indignation is proper. That’s the crux of the matter. Clearly God exercises patience in the face of our weaknesses, as we ought to, but a diametrically opposed theology or philosophy couched in false charity against true truth, true faith, and true love should not be tolerated. The consequences are evident: the death of vocations is an example of ruinous ideologies run rampant because prophetic denouncement been muted by carnal man’s version of charity.

The alarm ought to be sounded. It bugs the religion of no offense to no end.

ForChristAlone

what in hell are you talking about? you make no sense

fintic

I am referring to the tone and content of the article. I don’t see how the sarcasm or over-the-top points made stir anything but discontented anger; ultimately, articles rehearsing issues like this (or ones found across the aisle) wound the Church further still. As a young seminarian, I do not like most of the things Prof. Esolen finds repulsive either. But I don’t think whipping people into a frothy anger — I take as evidence the chest-puffing pusillanimity of internet comment sections — is the appropriate antidote. I think a prayerful life, rooted in Christ, lived in the Spirit, is the better choice; the fruits of which, Paul tells us, are forebearance, patience, and self-control. (Gal 5:19-23). I understand the need to vent one’s frustrations…but this comment section reads like a bunch of grousing old gossips who prefer an immediate hit of anger to Christlike (dare I say ‘masculine’?) perseverance.

Anglicanæ

Your taking offense is over-the-top. And ironically you’re injuring unity of the Church with words without knowledge.

Heresy is eating your communion alive and you’re worried about making sure those who see the cancer are tamed. Love, indeed.

Tony

God bless you for your sacrifice for the Church. Know that if I thought I was disheartening to young priests, I would not write. Three seminarians yesterday a few feet away from me gave me cheers for this piece — and a wonderful Dominican sister. I try to encourage the encourageable.

GG

Do not apologize. The Church needs people with your gifts too. You speak for those of us who cannot speak and cannot write as you do. It is as if the year 1972 never ends. The same mentality prevails today and it has become accepted and is now defended as if it is norm.

As one example female altar servers started as an abuse. There was no authority to start it. The Vatican gave in and said it was permissible. Now, the practice is so ingrained that to question it is heresy.

fintic

Dear Prof. Esolen, thanks for replying and kind words. I guess for me what is difficult is that yes, I know there has been a lot of silliness in the recent past…but I don’t know that articles with an edge like this will prove convincing to the people whom we would hope to influence and reform (the limits of “preaching to the choir”). I found the sarcasm discouraging, as if the Church were irredeemably on a crash-course not unlike mainline Protestant churches’ decline. I don’t believe it is, and as a Millennial, I have not once seen many of the things you spoke of, e.g., liturgical dancing, rendering ‘men’ an obscene term, etc., and my experiences of parish life have ranged from fairly traditional to fairly progressive. I think there is cause for hope in the future, and (perhaps this is my own wrestling with the demons of our age) I feel like we, as Catholics, owe it to a cynical world to rise above the fray, both in content and style. A few thoughts from a young seminarian…peace and every good wish, fintic

Tony

Dear Fintic, Thank you — and I’d like to continue our conversation in private, if you’d agree to send me an e-mail. I think we have things to discuss which might help each of us.

I am a young seminarian who is trying to respond to Christ’s call to labor in the vineyard (i.e., the Church) as it *is*, not as I would imagine it to be if all the people I disliked were gone from it. I sympathize with the sense of loss and disorientation addressed by Professor Esolen, but don’t see any positive fruit from the cynical tenor of articles like this. All of us are called to judge wisely, with discerned love, and to examine whether it is the Holy Spirit, or intemperate anger, which fills our sails. “Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly” (cf. John 7:24).

GG

Well, then you meet people where they are and walk with them. Do not be a self absorbed Promethean neo Pelagian, rigid Christian, long faced mournful funeral Christian, pickle-peppered face Christian.

fintic

I heartily agree.

GG

You must not agree as you are not meeting people but taking obsessively about small minded rules.

Anglicanæ

I think his heart is in the right place — I don’t blame a man for wanting to preserve Christian virtue amid a heated battle. What I take exception to is the lack of understanding of what he is facing.

He should spend a few days with shepherds and see see how they fend off dangerous animals that threaten the sheep. The Roman Catholic Church’s chief problem, I guarantee, isn’t that it has a bunch of curmudgeonly sour-pusses ruining the joy of others and quenching the move of the Holy Spirit. Quite the opposite: many have wrongly enlisted the Spirit of Peace as a figurehead of men’s traditions and philosophy.

GG

Well, I was just teasing him a bit using the Pope’s own words.

This essay, like Cardinal Burke’s words, are met with contempt. Even from so-called Catholic sites Burke has been attacked. We have been so indoctrinated into effeteness and faux charity that any plain word or strident defense is now seen as uncharitable. It is all perception.

Anglicanæ

I agree 100%. The fox is in the hen house and people are crying for temperance when lives are being devoured. No thanks.

Anglicanæ

Perhaps you ought to examine whether your reluctance is a form of cowardice, no less deserving of judgment. And maybe you are judging by appearances.

See how easy that is?

fintic

Yes, I do see how easy hit-and-run comments are; and I find online venues like this cultivate anonymous bravura and daring, which is easily confused with ‘courage’. Which is why I find it particularly unfruitful. Thank you, Anglicanae, for reminding me why I generally refrain from getting into contratemps on the internet. The world and Church have no need for this sort of fruitless banter.

Thomas Carlyle went to the heart of the matter, when he said, “All substances clothe themselves in forms: but there are suitable true forms, and then there are untrue unsuitable. As the briefest definition, one might say, Forms which grow round a substance, if we rightly understand that, will correspond to the real nature and purport of it, will be true, good; forms which are consciously put round a substance, bad.”

He added, “a man preaching from his earnest soul into the earnest souls of men: is not this virtually the essence of all Churches whatsoever? The nakedest, savagest reality, I say, is preferable to any semblance, however dignified. Besides, it will clothe itself with due semblance by and by, if it be real. No fear of that; actually no fear at all. Given the living man, there will be found clothes for him; he will find himself clothes. But the suit-of-clothes pretending that it is both clothes and man–!”

Anglicanæ

Brilliant stuff.

And on a related point, charity is always the prime concern of a Christian: sometimes charity wounds, sometimes angers. Malformed charity prevents necessary wounding and anger.

“Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.” –Prov. 27:6

John Fisher

The photo that goes with this story is banally amusing.

It’s the Muppet Mass with our Very Special Guest Star, …

It’s time to play the music
It’s time to light the lights
It’s time to meet the Muppets at the Muppet Mass tonight.

It’s time to put on makeup
It’s time to dress up right
It’s time to raise the curtain on the Muppet Mass tonight.

Why do we always come here
I guess we’ll never know
It’s like a kind of torture
The Novus Ordo show

And now let’s get things started
Why don’t you get things started
It’s time to get things started
On the most sensational inspirational celebrational Muppetational
This is what we call the Muppet Masssssssss!

Anglicanæ

Funny enough, I watched a couple of episodes of the Muppet Show last night with my 8 year old.

He saw the video of the “Mass” too. He didn’t know it was supposed to be church.

Loyd McIntire

This article describes many “Catholic” churches in America.

FreemenRtrue

May God have mercy.

Michael

Some good points in here, although I challenge the assumption that there aren’t communion rails in Churches any more and parishoners receive on the hand has changed the Eucharist into ‘snack’ time. What does change the Eucharistic celebration into that is a lack of reverence and respect demonstrated by both clergy and laity for what the Eucharist is.
I also struggle with the assertion that only boys should be altar servers. I doubt that allowing girls be servers has been the reason for the decrease in vocations, instead it is the de-masculinization of the Church and the Liturgy that this article (removing masculine pro-nouns, bad theology that emphasizes Jesus’ ‘femininty’ and transforms the Son of God into some sort of androgynous diety, weak non-confrontational priests that preach only feel good kum-bay-ya spirituality instead of good concrete doctrine, not to mention parents who are barely catechized themselves, much less taking the lead to teach their children the faith etc..).
In order to regain priestly vocations we need to:
A) Rebuild the Catholic family. Parents need to be well-formed Catholics themselves who take the lead in teaching the children the faith with clarity and conviction ( not just dumping them off on Religious Ed teachers). Prayer, virtue, and sacrifice needs to be done and encouraged within the home. More importantly, for the sake of Sons, Father’s need to take the lead in the house as the religious. That means actively practicing the faith as an to Sons and talking with them about…develop that masculine bond over it.
B) WE need masculine priests. Priests who are dynamic and energetic, ones that can talk about sports and show the masculine virtues that we recognize as men.
C) Boys need to be encouraged to take ministry roles in the Church and they need to be masculine.

Anglicanæ

Up-voted your advice. I think female altar servers is a symptom and a cause, though not the whole of the problem for sure.

Athelstane

Altar girls are, indeed, more symptom than cause – but there’s at least anecdotal evidence that, in *some* places, they have driven off males from altar service. The advent of altar girls merely manifests a deeper confusion about what the Mass is, and what the priesthood is. Vocations are one reason why altar girls are a problem, but it’s a secondary one. The real problem is theological. Altar girls are a more fundamental rupture with tradition and doctrine than extraordinary ministers, for example.

After all, the real collapse in vocations occurred in the first 10-15 years after 1965, during which altar girls were only sporadically in evidence, as an illegal abuse. Something much more fundamental was at work.

noterroristsallowed

Children serving in the mass is a symptom of Less vocations in the Catholic Church. Pffft.

Athelstane

You’re obviously missing my point, since I’m trying get past the issue of “altar girls.” The collapse in vocations began three decades before John Paul II finally authorized them (and a decade or so before they began being employed as an abuse of the rules).

So where are the priestly vocations? Why are we getting so few now? Why do dioceses like Esolen’s exist where there are NO seminarians?

Horrifying! Looked like some Dionysian led pagan ritual mocking the resurrection of Jesus. I don’t know what I’d do in the moment if I saw that at Mass or really at anytime before the tabernacle. The Church needs many prayers. http://www.romans10seventeen.com. Enjoy.

anne

God help us! I have never seen this “liturgical dance” before and I hope I never do again. I would weep loudly and run away.

MacBeth Derham

You forgot the slide show. And Fr. recently promised the children “more video homilies.”

Anglicanæ

*shudder*

Emily T.

This article is making the Facebook rounds right now and frankly, it gives me a rage stroke every time I see it. I’m sure it’s being passed around by (presumably) well-intentioned individuals who don’t want shitty liturgies. I empathize. Because guess what? I don’t want shitty liturgies either.

The two obvious problems (two of many) with this article are a. the association of bad liturgical practices with the term “feminization” and b. vilifying the participation of women in the liturgy as a “threat” to male participation.

Generally speaking, I don’t feel that I’m excluded by the Church. I understand that there are many women who have had experiences that make them feel that way. Sometimes language and attitudes can be troubling, but generally speaking, I have felt included and heard. However, when this drivel gets posted — not by traddies, mind you, but by faithful, gentle men whom I genuinely respect — my ire gets good and riled. It shows me that though my respect for men’s contributions to the Church is taken for granted, that same courtesy is clearly not always extended towards women. The assumption that female participation in liturgy is a driving cause of the Church’s vocational decline is insulting and naive. The presumption that liturgical dance, cheesy music, etc. are “feminine,” and that military language and metaphor are “masculine” (and will undoubtedly cause us women to get the vapors) is just plain ignorant.

Catholic women have shown themselves to be strong, faithful badasses. We’ve led armies into battle (Joan of Arc), we’ve bossed around popes (Catherine of Siena), we were martyred in the Coliseum (Perpetua and Felicity), we’ve led national movements (Dorothy Day), and we’ve written critically-acclaimed literature (Flannery O’Connor). Heck, a woman gave birth to the son of God and a woman was the first witness to His resurrection. Can we please stop perpetuating the myth that “feminization” is contributing to the decline of the Church when history has shown us, again and again, that women have been a vital part of what’s kept the Church alive and healthy? And if female participation at the altar (not even as ordained ministers, mind you, but simply as lectors, EMHCs, cantors, altar servers, or acolytes) is a threat to your participation, then I think that speaks volumes about your own character but not about me. The vocational crisis is the problem of the Universal Church. There’s plenty of blame to be passed around. Don’t just blame the women.

You have a point. I, for one, loathe when military language is used in spiritual matters. The military is a heinous job, even if one that should be done only by men, as women and children are those for whom wars are fought. But I digress. That men whine from their armchairs that the Church has been hijacked by women, true or not, yet do not step up to fill the positions that they fill, licitly or not, is actually not very manly.

Emily T.

I agree that one can argue the appropriateness of military language without assuming that removing it is because of a “feminization” of the Church. Some women are moved by its use. Some men oppose its use. That discussion is simply not a matter of feminity/masculinity.

Indeed, if vocations to the priesthood aren’t being fulfilled, one cannot possibly blame women. If the priesthood is meant for men only, then ultimately, the lack of priests is the result of men not stepping up.

Tony

Sorry, Emily, but that is simply not true. The feminists, both male and female, who took their hatchets to the hymnals excised the “manly” hymns at the same time as they neutered the language of other hymns. The military language comes from Scripture …

People are not being reasonable. If one student in a class of fifty has checked out of some professor’s course, I blame the student. If thirty have done it, I blame the professor. Here I turn the question back at you. It’s a challenge. I say that if the Church recognizes the special gifts and the special shortcomings of men, she would not do plenty of the things she does now, and we would be better off. We can hardly be worse off than we are. What is there to lose? We would not be embarking on some experiment in something new…..

M

But as every statistician knows correlation does not imply causation. Has it occurred to you that there may be multiple reasons that the Church is losing members and that your notion might not be one of them? According to one survey, which asked former Catholics why they had left the Church, the seven reasons most commonly given were:
1) The sex abuse crisis
2) The church’s stance on homosexuality
3) Dissatisfaction with the priest
4) Uninspiring homilies on Sundays
5) Perception that church hierarchy is too closely tied to conservative politics
6) The church’s stance on divorced and remarried Catholics
7) The status of women
(http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/30/7-reasons-catholics-leave-church-in-trenton-1-is-sex-abuse-crisis/)
With respect to #7, “status of women” means the opposite of what you would have us all believe. Several people cited “discrimination against women” as a reason for leaving. There is no mention of anybody citing “altar girls” or “liturgical dancing” or “feminized hymns” or “girl cooties.” What data we have completely contradicts your assertion.

Tony

Then the Episcopal Church and the other liberal mainline denominations must be growing at a breathtaking speed. They are not. They are dying.

You will note that I never said that there should be no altar girls. I said that if you want to kill vocations to the priesthood you should make sure there are as few altar boys as possible.

People give reasons for their leaving that will do credit to themselves. But often the reason is not a reason for leaving as it is a failure to see any reason to stay. And nowhere up there is the most common reason for leaving to be seen: “I could not keep my pants on.” Your list shows us that you are here in bad faith — because you do not actually wish the Church to overcome a very silly and now dangerously vicious world, as regards matters of sex.

M

How many logical fallacies did you manage to squeeze into your last sentence?:-O You made an unproven assertion — that the Church would be better off if “the special gifts of men” were recognized, etc. This was made with reference to an analogy that multiple students will check out of a class if the professor is a problem, indicating your belief that the number of Catholics is dwindling because the Church has a problem with recognizing masculine gifts. Do you agree so far? In response, I: 1) I pointed out that there can be multiple reasons for any phenomenon; and 2) I provided a list of actual reasons given for leaving the Church, none of which included lack of recognition for “the special gifts of men.” This means that, in the absence of contradictory information, I have disproven your assertion. I thought you might be able to respond with other data, but instead you throw insults that are untrue. I think you owe me an apology.

Anglicanæ

Dr. Esolen was talking specifically about a dwindling culture of vocation to the priesthood. Your list speaks to the reasons people gave for leaving the Church.

GG

It is not woman that are the cause. It is ideology.

Emily T.

Ideology is too vague a term for me to agree or disagree. But I agree that women are not the cause of a vocational decline.

noterroristsallowed

Christianity grew because women were attracted to it for it’s liberation. Africa and China now understand the importance of Christianity in their countries. In the west, we live in a rather materialistic, pampered and selfish world and we don’t seem to have room for God. What’s going on in this video is a result of poor leadership. The Priest is the shepard and we are the flock. The Priest is to blame. The reason why people leave the church is because of POOR LEADERSHIP(that is the male’s responsibility). The Catholic Church for some reason has a poor history of making Priests liable for their actions(leadership).

GG

The ideology of feminism and relativism to mention just two.

Emily T.

I can agree with relativism. But I think feminism has, in a lot of ways, contributed the propagation of a lot of Catholic values and cannot be universally dismissed.

Anglicanæ

Just as chauvinism propagates Catholic values, right?

Overlap does not agreement make.

Merely re-asserting the narrative doesn’t make it true.

musicacre

Feminism is a socialist construct and has damaged respect for us females in this past century and its militant adherents have sneered at those of us women who choose to be mothers and faithful Catholic wives. The way we raise our children influences the future for good or evil.

nicole_e_c

Thank you, Emily. I’m sad that I had to scroll so far into the comments to see a reaction like this.

Athelstane

Don’t just blame the women.

In fairness, women aren’t bishops and pastors. They are the ones who have been in charge for the last fifty years. They are the ones ultimately responsible for these developments. And ultimately, I believe that’s who Tony Esolen is really addressing.

As Esolen makes clear, the problem goes well beyond the sex that predominates in the sanctuary. The problem is with the entire theology at work in most places in the Church in America. It’s less Catholicism than Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. The result is not even so much a feminized church as an infantilized one – “God exists and loves you, wants you to be nice to other people and to be successful.” And while it’s bad for both men and women, it’s particularly alienating to men.

Emily T.

“Infantalized” is a much better word for what he’s describing, though I take issue with the claim that it’s particularly alienating towards men. Kitsch alienates and insults everyone because it’s spiritually cheap and emotionally lurid.

The fact that liturgical kitsch exists and undermines the sanctity of the mass I take as point granted. And it might contribute to a lack of vocations (though I think it’s gravely reductionistic to point to liturgical flaws as the sole villain) But Burke and Esolen didn’t say “infantalized.” They said feminized. I don’t think I’m playing a semantics game when I take issue with their wording. And Esolen had strong–and frankly, sexist–statements about the participation of women in the liturgy (“Let the music be led by women, especially women who like to be seen and heard performing it,” “use as many altar girls as possible,” and– good Lord, this was a doozy— “Use as many women lectors as possible. In fact, once Mass has become too bland for girls themselves, use the old ladies as acolytes, busying about the altar as if they were laying out the tablecloth and silverware for a party.”)

If this article or Cardinal Burke’s comments were simply lamenting questionable liturgy then saying “feminized” would still a regrettable word choice. But it wasn’t just commenting on liturgy. It was also a pointed censure towards women taking an active role in liturgical life.

Athelstane

I think “feminized” is really most trenchant as applied to men, honestly – more precisely, that many priests are effeminate, and have been so for several decades. I think we all know the type. Leon Podles probably puts it better in his book The Church Impotent:

“Because Christianity is now seen as a part of the sphere of life proper to women rather than to men, it sometimes attracts men whose own masculinity is somewhat doubtful. By this I do not mean homosexuals, although a certain type of homosexual is included. Rather religion is seen as a safe field, a refuge from the challenges of life, and therefore attracts men who are fearful of making the break with the secure world of childhood dominated by women.” (p. xiv)

Were Tony’s words sexist? They didn’t strike me that way, though they did come across as snarky. I say that only because I have lost count of how many times I have seen it – where there is a conscious effort to maximize the presence of women in various liturgical roles, usually out of compensation for some kind of embarrassment or guilt that women cannot be ordained. (I have heard this actually expressed.) But be that as it may, it’s ultimately the pastors and bishops who are responsible for this state of affairs. They are in charge, by law. Not the women.

Emily T.

That quote reinforces my objection– that something that is “feminine” is considered safe and weak. That “spiritual strength” is properly applied to “masculine” and its opposite is described as “feminine” is not fair— and, frankly, relies on gender stereotypes that should not apply to what the author is describing.

I see his words as perhaps accidentally (I hope) sexist. Whether he realizes it or not, he paints a picture of women involved in liturgies that reduces their probable sincerity and desire to serve to a caricature of fussy, middle-aged hens fiddling around with cutlery to make themselves feel important. That strikes me as incredibly unfair. Enthusiasm is not the same as attention-seeking.

Athelstane

That quote reinforces my objection– that something that is “feminine” is considered safe and weak.

I see your point, but I don’t agree. It wasn’t entirely fair to pull that one quote out of Podles’ book, because the real point is that the effeminacy in question is not a normal one, but an unhealthy one as exhibited in these men.

As for attention-seeking: We must be reluctant to ascribe motivations, not least because in most humans they are invariably mixed. Some women just want to serve. But I have run into women in these roles (especially parish “liturgists” and cantors) who really were engaged, at least in part, in an exercise in attention-seeking. And they can be as mean and vicious as anyone you will ever encounter in the Church. I know. I have had to face it myself. You have heard the old joke about the difference between a liturgist and terrorist? Well, in most parishes today, those liturgists are women – usually, middle aged, middle class white women.

Emily T.

Certainly, women and men are mixed bags of motivations. And if there are –even if its a majority (though I don’t think that’s true) of women who fill these positions for the power it gives them, that is not enough of a reason to say that women SHOULDN’T fill those positions.

noterroristsallowed

The last 3 Popes went out of their way to make women understand that God welcomes women at his table. They understand, and I fully support them on these issues.

Athelstane

By table, do you mean the altar?

noterroristsallowed

No not the man’s altar, but at The Lord’s Table.

Athelstane

Do you mean the Lord’s Table in the euphemistic sense of being welcome in the House of the Lord – in His Communion? As opposed to the (physical) altar in the sanctuary? I’m just asking – I’m still not quite clear in what sense you are using this expression.

noterroristsallowed

I mean when Christ welcomed the woman at his table to kiss His Feet and asked Him for forgiveness. That’s all I want. I could care less about being present on the altar. I don’t believe that me becoming a Priest will gain me the keys to God’s kingdom, so I really have no issue with men being ordained only.

Athelstane

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

Glenn M. Ricketts

But Emily, who denied that Catholic were strong faithful and whatever other terms you like? You don’t think that Mother Teresa or Katherine Drexel or countless others needed the priesthood to serve God do you? “Feminization” doesn’t not, in my view, refer to “women” per se, as it does to the attempt to force squared pegs into round holes by turning boys into girls and vice versa. The boys almost always lose that one big time, as I think that Christine Hoff Sommers argues convincingly in her magisterial book, The War Against Boys (2nd edition, 2013). As for the priesthood, as I just noted in response to another poster a moment ago, I’ll believe that the time for women’s ordination has come when God calls a poor, pious and obscure woman to the priesthood over her strenuous objections. I am not worthy, she would protest. What troubles me enormously about so many current advocates of women’s ordination is that they approach the priesthood in terms of “power” and entitlement, and they’ve got the post-graduate degrees to prove it. The day may come, but that approach will never do it for me.

Emily T.

Glenn, my objections did not mention woman priesthood. Certainly, I know women who would gladly fill some of those empty pastoral positions. But I am not arguing whether that should or shouldn’t happen. Those liturgical positions I mentioned— altar servers, lectors, cantors, etc. — are not ordained ministries. A woman may step into those roles without it being an implicit theological statement about women in the priesthood. However, it does open a place for women to take on some leadership roles in the parish, and I think that is a positive change. I don’t think that a woman in a leadership role need be a threat to a man who also wished to serve as a leader, nor need it be a threat to the male priesthood. The fact that it is often perceived as such is troubling to me.

As I mentioned in an earlier comment, liturgical kitsch is obscene because it’s spiritually cheap. It infantilizes the gospel message…it’s not bad because it’s “feminine.” As a female, I’m no more interested in liturgical dance than the adolescent boy you’re referring to. I don’t see these liturgical practices as turning boys into girls at all, and to assume that that’s what is happening relies on outdated gender stereotypes that simply do not fit our understandings of “masculinity” and “femininity.” (Some boys enjoy dance— and no, that does not necessarily make them “effeminate.” It also doesn’t mean they’d enjoy dance in a liturgical setting). I think its fair to object to liturgical dance on the grounds that its meant to invoke quick, surface-level emotions (a goal its not terribly successful at achieving). But to say that cheap emotion is feminine is troubling.

As for your description of women in the priesthood— Amen. I think it would be equally great if more men adopted that same humility you describe (and yes, I recognize that many–even most– do). I fear that associating the office of priesthood with power is not limited to the feminists who advocate for female priest, but often implicitly lies behind the motivations of those who defend the all-male priesthood.

Anglicanæ

Your response is excellent, thank you.

The first bugbear in your response, I found, is this: ” Those liturgical positions I mentioned— altar servers, lectors, cantors, etc. — are not ordained ministries. A woman may step into those roles without it being an implicit theological statement about women in the priesthood.”

This is only a truth of circumstance and not substance. What I mean to say is, while it may be true that a girl can be an acolyte, it is not true that girl acolytes are optimal or even desirable for this minor but important role. A girl can also be trained to hold a rifle and go to the front lines, but it’s a sign of some deep emergency or trouble that would encourage this as a norm. St. Judith was heralded for her bravery and trickery to slay Holofernes, but the men were cowards and not stepping up to their responsibilities. It was naturally supposed men would go to war. Likewise it is naturally supposed boys and men would assist with the sacerdotal activities near the altar. It makes immanent sense.

Furthermore, you seem to rely on a hollow assumption when you refer to the opinions you decry as being “outdated gender stereotypes.” That phrase is so uncritically modern it’s almost difficult to know where to begin undressing it. But I am a dinosaur (read, “outdated”) in a relatively young body, so I will do my best:

When you use the word “outdated”, does that mean it’s been held from time immemorial and it’s *time* to make a transition for some reason? Or, it’s been abandoned by Enlightened Modern Western Man™ long ago? The “outdated” language seems to be an odd choice of words unless you are talking about souring milk or fashion. As far as ideologies or philosophies go, they are either true or false. They may pass away (become “outdated”) for a limited number of reasons, among which could be because of wholesale rejection of truth as much as wholesale rejection of error.

Tell me, where do you go to find out if one’s gender stereotypes are true or false? How about your gender stereotype? Is it up to date? If it is, how do you know? I can go to Saudi Arabia and find a very non-outdated vision of gender roles, no?

Emily T.

I don’t know that the position of “acolyte” — or even “soldier,” necessarily, but that’s a point for another day— need be a position that is filled by women in emergency only. Theologically speaking, I don’t see a need for men to fill a non-ordained liturgical position first and only then allow women to fill the gaps.

As for your issue with the term “outdated,” I don’t mean “no longer popular in today’s society and culture.” I mean, simply, no longer accepted as true— though perhaps there was a time in which it was. That there are certain secondary characteristics and actions that can culturally be applied to men, and others applied to women– sure. Fair enough. But that these secondary characteristic, like “interested in dance,” are not inherent to what makes a man “masculine” and a woman “feminine.”

As for whether a gender stereotype is true or false — clearly, that’s a question that’s still a struggle to be answered and I don’t pretend to know that answer entirely. But I do know that calling bad liturgy feminine simply because it involves dancing, or emotions, or whatever is just not true.

Anglicanæ

“I do know that calling bad liturgy feminine simply because it involves dancing, or emotions, or whatever is just not true.”

Did anyone denounce emotion here? During my years as exploring holy orders as a priest in the Anglican communion, I’ve been overwhelmed countless times with emotion because of the truth the liturgy presents in the form of beauty that naturally adheres to it.

Dancing, on the other hand, is not inherently feminine or masculine. It’s a human thing, of course. Nobody here (it’s a big thread, granted, so correct me if I’m wrong) decried dancing per se. It’s the context, aim, and form of such dancing which are rightly being critiqued. And it’s no accident such tomfoolery at the altar corresponds and correlates with liberal theology’s wide-eyed addiction to the doctrine of “gender equality.”

The objection I have to liturgical dancing, especially as we’ve seen it, is what has been fueling its presence, and it spills over into its form. One of the heads of the evil Hyrdra of modernity has been feminism, an unassailable point if there ever was one.

If you are proposing the vast presence of altar girls and white wine piety has no connexion whatsoever to the apostate philosophy of modernity, then I’d be interested in hearing a counter-narrative that is more plausible.

And when you say your term “outdated” is synonymous with “no longer accepted as true,” I wonder who you are talking about. By all counts my “gender” ideology is steeped in a biblical paradigm and confirmed by the Christian tradition. And what’s more, I get the feeling those who reject the religion of modernity are on the same page I am. Those who accept its assumptions or its hermeneutic largely see “sex” and “gender” in radically different ways.

Emily T.

“And it’s no accident such tomfoolery at the altar corresponds and correlates with liberal theology’s wide-eyed addiction to the doctrine of ‘gender equality.'”

“One of the heads of the evil Hyrdra of modernity is feminism, an unassailable point if there ever was one.”

Sigh. Here’s where the conversation ends. You see, if you were able to recognize the merits of the feminist movement without creating a straw-man (white wine piety? really?), then we could have a fruitful debate. But if you enter the arena presuming that all modern thought is heretical by virtue of its modernity, and all feminist ideals are heretical by virtue of being feminist, then we are sadly done. I wouldn’t dismiss tradition simply because it’s old— indeed, I value and cherish tradition. I think it would be ideal if one could discuss, critique, or accept new ideas based on the soundness of the argument, rather than give a simple dismissal as something as just a “head on the evil Hydra of modernity.”

Anglicanæ

Madam, no heresy is utterly absent of some good argument, don’t you know?

Tell me one dangerous lie that is without some truth? Is communism wholly untrue? Socialism? Marxism? They all observe something they deem unfair or imbalanced about the world and try to redress it, don’t they? Their answers, however, discard traditional religious convictions and insights because they feel they can make new the world on different principles. Their starting point is broken and works destruction on the order of things.

The old feminists who fought for eradicating the objectification of women and voting rights were in principle responding to real issues. But they were operating on the assumption that femininity is a thing to be honored. The later feminists transformed their movement into an equality-on-all-fronts cult. The later ideology is what has infected vast regions of church life. That said, even their 19th century counterparts began the contraception culture. So no, not every idea from feminism is evil, but the whole of the philosophy is evil.

Go ahead, point out the good fruit of feminism in our culture. Name the positive good women have gained from the philosophy “feminism” that the Church hasn’t in principle already provided. I eagerly await your response.

noterroristsallowed

As a woman, I really enjoy living in these times. The best times to live in is this age. I really don’t think I would be happy living in the olden days especially 2000 years ago (thank God)

GG

The technology is great, but the morals are worse than ever.

noterroristsallowed

There were things that happened way back then that were much more horrible (the barbarian ages). I am glad I didn’t live to see mad men do such things to other human beings and I hope I will never see them happen in my country. I agree these times are not perfect times, but still…….

I don’t agree with abortion, but it takes 2 to make a baby. If men want to impregnate a woman, then he better be up for the responsibility. In today’s world, we have the ability to make many choices, and because God gave us free will we must choose correctly for the better of society. The Catholic Church is here to guide us, and I will always side with Her.

Emily T.

You’ve already reached your own conclusions and they are determinedly already against anything I might say. And as a women whose “career” is “education” (an admission you’ll probably deride as being another head on the hydra), my voice is clearly one you don’t want to hear. I can’t force you and I’m sure I won’t convince you of anything, but I’ll offer one last thought.

Let’s say that I agree that feminism hasn’t given women anything of value that the Church hasn’t already taught. But if that’s the case, the feminist movement has given women a voice in an arena that the Church’s arm can’t reach. While the Church’s stance on the dignity of women is true, beautiful, and good, it has very little clout in a secular world. But the feminists that you vilify, despite the disagreements I have with a few of their platforms, have stood up for causes that are perfectly aligned with the Church’s teaching on the dignity of women. And the message has been heard by people who would have ignored the Church. That might be a gesture that a man can’t fully appreciate, but it is incredibly meaningful for me. A lot of the opportunities I have been afforded— to be educated, to study theology, and to teach it as a layperson— have been fought for me by women I might not wholly agree with, but for whose gift I am still grateful.

Anglicanæ

“And as a women whose “career” is “education” (an admission you’ll probably deride as being another head on the hydra), my voice is clearly one you don’t want to hear.”

This is rich as it is haughty. If I didn’t want to “hear” your voice I wouldn’t even care to interact with you. Quite the opposite, some of my dearest university educators were women whose intellect and learning few could hold a candle to; and, even better, they carried in themselves the traditional paradigm I too embrace. Truth be known, my hermeneutics class was taught by a woman, and she had a reputation of people dropping her class left and right because she was so rigorous. I loved that class, and barely made it out with an A-.

I don’t have to go over my list of women I hold as virtual goddesses in the fields of theology, literature, or education. It has never crossed my mind that they might be in foreign territory.

Despite what you might believe, I’ve enjoyed reading the majority of your posts. Most of the content is spot on. That I might profoundly disagree in some places is no commentary that I think *you* are a virulent feminazi. It’s quite common for women in the Catholic church to be bit by the American birthright of feminism bug. The presuppositions are both entertaining to observe as well as sad to behold.

That said, my defects are legion and I make no pretense that I’m only and always drinking from the pure philosophical waters running off of the Helicon. I decry the detritus I find in myself too.

Athelstane

But I am not arguing whether that should or shouldn’t happen.

Why not?

Do you believe that the church is in error in claiming that it has no authority to ordain women?

I fear that associating the office of priesthood with power is not limited to the feminists who advocate for female priest…

Alas, that’s true. Too many priests over the years have seen their office in terms of power.

But there’s no need to compound one mistake with an even greater one.

Emily T.

I’m not arguing that point because I don’t think it’s pertinent to this thread.

Glenn M. Ricketts

You’re right, you hadn’t mentioned women’s ordination. I had just been on that subject with another poster, and connected that discussion to your comment.

For me, the problem is not so much women in leadership positions, they’ve ALWAYS been there – I don’t know if you had any experience with old style mother superior types back in the day(whew!) – but the way it is so often trumpeted as a “right” or as a tremendous “advance,” for the cause etc., etc Some of it also carries a lot of the strongly anti-male baggage from the secular feminist movement as well. Many women serve very effectively and ably, but do so without the need to “make a statement” of any kind – they’re simply there to help. Others, however, usually touting their educational achievements seem to want such positions for the wrong reasons, and therein lye my objections.

BY the way, I have big problems with much, much more than liturgical dance, whether it’s done by boys, girls, etc. Acoustic guitars and everything that comes with them, bongo drums, insipid uninspiring music all drive me batty. I think my specific objection to dancing is that it seems much more likely to be seen as an extension of the disco scene or some other type of secular entertainment, than it is as sacred. It can indeed work in parts of Africa, but in a context far removed from contemporary America and Europe. Thanks, I hope we can continue the discussion in this thread or another one.

Emily T.

Yes, but women in position of leadership specifically in the liturgy is the main question at hand, though. The fact that women have been in leadership positions in particular orders, schools, etc. is a positive fact that few will contest.

I think it’s all fair to point out that while there are many women who use these liturgical leadership positions as a platform for an agenda, we can’t forget that agendas don’t form within a vacuum. Whether just or not, their attitudes can be seen as a reaction to a certain kind of clericalism (that doesn’t exist everywhere, but certainly does exist) that seeks to keep women “in their place.” Is this an appropriate motivation to seek out those positions? Perhaps not, but it may be understandable. It’s fair to say that whenever positions in the Church are seen as tally marks for a particular “side,” then its an inappropriate politicizing of the Church and the start of a vicious cycle.

I agree that there’s more to liturgical kitsch than simply dance. And I also think that specific practices— dance, even, or guitar— may be more appropriate in certain setting than in others. You make the point about the use of dance in African traditions and it’s a great point. Circumstance and culture and intention all play a part in what may be construed as “good” or “bad” liturgical practice. This is not to say that what makes liturgy appropriate is all relative. It just means that circumstances must be taken into account. I think most Catholics accept that distinction.

Glenn M. Ricketts

I guess the question for me – which I encounter constantly in the secular world as well – is whether women are not doing anything worthwhile unless it is also something that men do. “Effeminate” for me doesn’t mean female; instead, it connotes futile attempts to compel men to behave more like women. Women easily wear jeans and pants, but men never, that’s NEVER wear skirts or dresses. Male sexual identity, I believe, is more fragile and artificial than female sexual identity is. Like many other young lads of yore, I once asked my mother the question, “What are dads good for?” You can do that at age 4-5, without incurring consequences. Her role as mother was obvious and indispensable; it was so that she could stay home and fulfill that role that my Dad worked long hours away from home to support. She was the one we could not imagine being without.

So the question, analyzed at length in Sommers’s book, is how much ought we to tamper with the male/female dichotomy? And if we do, what cost will we incur? Is there a special role for male authority, especially moral authority, in helping boys grow up into men, rather than drifters or criminals? Is a male priesthood part of that cosmos? I don’t ask these questions rhetorically. But I do suggest that the “male” aspects of the liturgy need to assessed along with them. Thanks again.

Anglicanæ

In honor of my Stewart heritage (Scottish/Irish) I’ve been known to wear a kilt. Guilty.

Glenn M. Ricketts

But don’t Scotsmen also wear kilts during the caber toss?

Anglicanæ

Aye!

Glenn M. Ricketts

Aye, indeed. And there’s no doubt about the manhood of such stout lads, eh?

Anglicanæ

Not even a wee bit!

Claire Dalton Pak

Yes, it’s all about the women. Some of the older ladies who serve as EMHCs
or lectors at our church are a little silly, but I guess that a lifetime of
scorn and mockery, which escalates to sneering derision and contempt once women
commit the unforgivable crime of aging, can make some women a little
silly. If men are tired of seeing “feminized” liturgy (whatever), then I suppose they could talk to their parish priests and then failing that, to their bishops, and then failing that, they could PRAY for the Church. It’s easier and more fun,though, to mock the old ladies.

Why are women even necessary in a parish, anyway? I’m a woman who accepts (and completely) the teachings of the Church, and that means that the idea of a female priest is just ridiculous to me. But what else do we need women for? I mean, at our parish,
men are just lining up to teach catechism, to assemble holiday food baskets, to
organize coat drives, to collect diapers and clothing for the crisis pregnancy
center, to clean and decorate the church, and to compete for highly lucrative
and prestigious full-time teaching positions in the parish school. If the women didn’t keep pushing the men aside with their feminine little waving arms, the place would be a fortress of manly maleness. As things stand now,
though, you no sooner take down the felt and burlap banners than some old lady
is wrapping the altar in macramé. As I recall, the same thing happened in India a few years ago. Robust, soldierly, virile young men descended upon Calcutta, determined to devote themselves to service to the poorest of the poor, but your typical old lady brings her pushy hippie friends and drives the young men away with her icky girly white robes and her flabby upper arms. And then what happened? They made her a saint. No WONDER men are fed up.

Seriously. I love almost everything you write. But I’m
tired of the seeing devout, if silly, old ladies being mocked, derided, and
scorned in print. I expect it from Voris and Father Z, but I thought you were a gentleman. Last I looked, the feminized Church was still run almost exclusively by men. Start praying, start getting other men to lead their families to church, and leave
the old ladies alone.

GG

Would it be wrong if I said the old busybodies are still rebelling against the drama of their upbringing?

Claire Dalton Pak

I suppose not, because I don’t even know what you mean.

GG

Like you they feel oppressed or marginalized. Now, they have their chance to correct this grave injustice.

Claire Dalton Pak

I don’t feel oppressed or marginalized. Just because I’m calling out a man for writing scornfully about women doesn’t mean that I think that his criticisms apply to me. I’ve never actually seen a liturgical dance. I’m sure they exist, but in 40-plus years, I’ve never actually run into one. I’m not a center-of-attention kind of girl, so I’m not looking for opportunities to participate in the Mass other than by sitting in the pew. Dr. Esolen’s article has nothing to do with me personally, and I’m not taking it personally. I just think he’s wrong.

I don’t think that the old ladies who like to serve as EHMCs or cantors or lectors think of themselves as “marginalized” or “oppressed” either. In my parish, the female EHMCs are all in their late 60s to late 70s. They want to help, and maybe they don’t have much else to do, and maybe they even like attention. I don’t think that this should make them a target for mockery, and I don’t understand why men who want to defend traditional Catholicism seem to hate and scorn them so much. Yes, they’re silly sometimes, but that’s the Church’s biggest problem?

Anglicanæ

Just had another woman (wife’s sister) read this piece. Neither did she think it was scornful of women. What gives?

Claire Dalton Pak

Difference of opinion, I suppose.

Anglicanæ

Clearly.

Romulus

Claire, please consider that the feminization of the Mass took place at the same time as a mass clericalization of the laity. Men were discouraged and alienated by liturgical changes that stripped out the clarity and order, replaced by chatty spontaneity, sentiment, and the vital question of where Father’s mood will take him today. Lay men, invited to get involved, found this disorienting, even as a subset of women infected by feminist paradigms stepped forward to get their “rights”. As most men dislike being in the limelight, and very few enjoy open confrontation with women, most retired from the field, leaving it to the sort of women (and men) most interested in being prominent and influential.

I train altar servers. Male altar servers, of all ages. Boys are more interested in the challenge, but men mostly have their hands full already, and will not be coaxed to step up till they’re convinced they are really wanted.

Claire Dalton Pak

I suppose there’s some truth in that, but why does every discussion of this problem turn into an attack on women (especially old ones?) If men retired from active participation, then aren’t they somewhat to blame? Why do men have to be “coaxed” and “convinced”? Is it because it’s easier to hurl brickbats and to write angry blog posts about “feminization” and to make fun of old ladies than it is to actually do something? I don’t need to see women on the altar, but I also don’t think there’s something intrinsically wrong about their presence, either. I do think that there’s something very wrong about telling young men that they’re excused from active life in the Church if the presence of icky girls just freaks them out too much.

Romulus

This is not about girls being icky. It is certainly not about girls being incompetent or careless of details. It is about signs. The celebration of the Eucharist is a sacrament — a sign. The priest is at the heart of that. The other servers are extensions, as it were, of the priest: other hands and feet and voices. When they are male, they underscore the vital sacramental sign of the priest’s maleness as alter Christus, and the real spiritual presence of the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, at which we’re mystically present. When they are not, they obscure and submerge that sign, so that it no longer signifies clearly. Females in the sanctuary are a bad idea because they introduce countersigns at a time when the Church desires to speak with particular clarity.

Claire Dalton Pak

Well, I don’t disagree with you. I just hate the tone that these arguments often take, which is one of scorn and mockery directed at women and their silly femininity. Witness the other commenter who responded to me with his question about the “old busybodies”. If you and other well-meaning men really want to restore holiness in the liturgy, then begin with reasonable arguments like this one and not with “no stupid girls allowed” meanness and old-lady hatred. I’ll concede that the Mass is better when the only person who receives attention is the priest (and that only in his alter-Christi role) but some of you guys seem to extend that idea to suggest that the Church itself (the Bride of Christ, right?) would be better without female participation. I think that Jesus loved women. I wish that more Catholic men did.

I love femininity, as a man and a father, I love it! But, yes, it can be silly out of its place, just like masculinity can.

Emily T.

AMEN.

Anglicanæ

This phrase, “women and their silly femininity,” is tilting at windmills. That is coming from your imagination, not from the article or those who side with it.

I would to God real femininity would take hold of more Christian women. True femininity is praiseworthy and its absence has been an evil our culture has had to endure for decades now. The “we-can-do-anything-men-can-do” shtick has either expressed itself in tiresome, confusing, and silly displays (co-ed military! co-ed football!), or on the opposite end, turned women into promiscuous whores on the pretext of sexual liberation. The latter error is unfortunately gaining traction within church culture at large; the former error has been swallowed hook, line, and sinker for sometime now.

Claire Dalton Pak

Are you confusing the words “former” and “latter”? The latter would be the last-named of two things, so are you suggesting that the latter error (the promiscuous whore one) is gaining traction within the Church? I’m not sure what that means. If you mean that the former error is gaining traction within the Church, then I’m also not sure I agree. The former error (“women can do anything men can do”) would lead to widespread acceptance of the idea of women priests, and even among my relatively modern Catholic friends, that idea is neither accepted nor even taken a little bit seriously.

If you read the original article, you’ll see references to Jesus as a “safe, sweet Boyfriend” and to “arm-raising cantors”, among other things (this is just what I can remember offhand.) I understand that the phrase “silly femininity” is mine, but it’s not a figment of my imagination. It’s a reasonable reaction to the tone of the article, which is one of mockery and scorn toward women. Is Dr. Esolen suggesting that MEN consider Jesus a “safe, sweet Boyfriend” (capital B is his, not mine)? I don’t think so. I think that he’s thinking that this is a “feminized” view of the Lord. People can write what they want to write, and if “traditional” Catholic men want to deride and sneer at women, then they should go ahead and have at it. They should just own up to it, like men.

Anglicanæ

You read my comments correctly. Promiscuity is less and less taboo in church culture. The woman-can-be-anything-a-man-can-be silliness has been around a bit longer and more widely accepted.

Wife sitting here. As opinionated as she is, she sees not a drop of derision against women. Must be a modern thing.

Claire Dalton Pak

Well, you and Mrs. Anglicanae are entitled to your opinions. Several commenters have told me that I’m misreading Dr. Esolen, but I remain unconvinced.

Your other assertion is puzzling. I wouldn’t argue the point if you asserted that lax sexual morality has been accepted (even celebrated) by the secular culture (and let’s not put all the blame for that on the ladies– those “promiscuous whores” need willing male partners) but I don’t seen any evidence that “Church culture” is embracing or even accepting promiscuity.

Anglicanæ

The widening acceptance of same sex relationships with in churches is evidence of this. Taken on its strict etymological weight, the term “promiscuous” has to do with a confused mingling. I’d say many churches are one step behind the world in this regard.

And yes, men imbibe an equally repugnant, boorish and disgusting mentality when they sleep around.

Patti Day

As one who surely meets the “old lady” test, I got a laugh from your post. It is greatly humbling to be seen by others as silly and irrelevant, but also to realize that your donations of money and time, especially time, helps keep the parish going. If all the “old ladies” in my small church died at once or suddenly abdicated, who would there be to do all the things that need doing? Most of the men my age are dead or waiting to die, and the young men and women are too busy with work and family commitments. I know I’m not irreplaceable. I am a cog in the wheel that will cease to work at some point and someone will be found to slip into my spot, but until then go ahead and have a laugh about us old ladies. We can take it.

noterroristsallowed

I disagree with the article. The men I know who left the church(didn’t attend Mass) was because of the ridicule it got due to the child abuse scandal. Growing up, I often heard this was the problem and because people just don’t believe anymore. Young girls left because of the harsh criticism they received. As a long life Catholic, these were more conversations with other Catholics growing up. The problem is attracting young women to Mass again. If the young women don’t go to Mass, there won’t be any young men standing at the back of the church, like it use to be. That’s it. Women need to be welcomed into the church. We may not want to engage in Priestly roles or appear on the altar in the Church, but please stop blaming us and stop being so harsh towards us. Here is my suggestion: stop picking on young girls, stop picking on what they wear, stop telling them they are unworthy, and please stop telling them they have no important role in the Church. Women will not go where they are not welcomed. Oh, and one more thing, stop making fun of us….we may just go back to Mass again.

Romulus

There was no child abuse scandal, apart from rare, isolated cases. There was a scandal of homosexual seduction of adolescent males.

The withdrawal of men from regular Mass attendance began decades before the sexual scandals became front page news. It was not a matter of moral outrage, except in those desiring an excuse for their neglect. If young women also neglect their practice of the Faith, it has much to do with the secular feminism they’re force-fed these days — leading them to believe, among other things, immodesty in women is purely a male problem.

As for who’s worthy to serve the Lord, that is a red herring. Every person at Mass is unworthy. Serving the Lord — according to the state of life to which we’ve been called — is not a privilege for the elite; it’s a duty for all.

The complaint that women suffer mockery simply for being present at Mass is a bizarre fantasy.

GG

Bizarre is right.

noterroristsallowed

Bizarre eh? Check out the comment section. For goodness sake, read the article about the women in the video.

Romulus

The women in the video are not “simply present at Mass”. That was your complaint. It isn’t borne out by the evidence you yourself indicate.

Again: the Mass is not a pious entertainment. It is not meant to be instructive or inspiring. Its effect on the feelings and even the intellect of the faithful present is relatively unimportant. The fact that almost all the emphasis nowadays is on evangelizing and edifying the faithful is proof of how the popular understanding of the Mass, even among Catholics, has been thoroughly protestantized.

We will not make progress till Catholics recover the understanding of the Mass as the Sacrifice of Calvary, directed to the Father and made mystically present through the action of the priest.

noterroristsallowed

I completely agree with that statement. This is the reason, I remained faithful to God and His Church.

M

This is very true. We changed parishes because we felt our daughters were not treated well as altar girls at our old parish. A creepy deacon made some very sexist and inappropriate remarks about altar girls that upset our sons as much as our daughters, so we moved on to protect our children. We’re happy to drive the extra distance to our new parish, where the atmosphere is warmer and psychologically healthier for our children.

noterroristsallowed

That’s great. You know I left a parish because the Catholics in that parish were harsh towards young women. I attended a church where it’s not the most popular, but I felt welcomed because I did not get those unwelcoming glances. The Priest, I remember, welcomed with me with a smile. I felt at home there.

Athelstane

That is a great shame.

Parishes that don’t make young people welcome are not likely to have much of a future. You’d think they would figure that out; but there’s a lot of short-term thinking going on – and cliquey behavior.

noterroristsallowed

I agree. I attend 2 different parishes. One of them is so devoted to welcoming the young. The Mass contains a variety of young and old and I am content with this. Also the Priests defend the young altar girls. I am glad to say that Parish has young women attending it. My honest experience.

Athelstane

The men I know who left the church(didn’t attend Mass) was because of the ridicule it got due to the child abuse scandal.

Ultimately, people leave a church because they no longer believe what it claims. That can happen in many ways.

The hypocrisy involved in sexual abuse and its cover-up may contribute to that new disbelief – the reality being too different from the claims to believe the latter. But it is often the case that belief was nominal to begin with, and an abuse case or crisis is simply the excuse to cut the final ties. Some I know in Boston think that a lot of the defections from the Church after the Boston scandals were really about that.

The problem is attracting young women to Mass again.

With all due respect, the problem is attracting young people. And as low as participation among young women is, it’s considerably worse for young men. So what’s the answer for young men? Berate them for failing to show up? Good luck with that.

noterroristsallowed

Over the centuries, women have been attracted to the Church for its security in a hostile world toward women. Now that women have their independence and rights, they don’t see the need for the Church any more. I’m just telling that as a female, it is difficult to listen to some of the verses of the Bible. The last few Popes did a good job trying to attract women to the Church again. It has been very helpful and I do believe things will get better. Young men can go to church, because they can move up….. women can’t.

Athelstane

Young men can go to church, because they can move up…..

Move up to what? You mean the priesthood?

Very, very few do, since most of us don’t have vocations. If ordination is what you mean, you would think young men would be there in greater numbers. In reality, however, they’re almost nonexistent in most parishes.

noterroristsallowed

To Priesthood, Bishops and cardinals and the Pope(very powerful). We must be honest with ourselves Athelstane, I accept Christ chose men to lead his flock. I am not disputing the Lord. I just have a difficult time believing women make men feel uncomfortable at Mass because they have a bit of more say now.

Athelstane

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Just two points:

1) I appreciate your clarification that you accept the teaching of the Church that only men are called to holy orders. It is worth noting that, if surveys are to be believed, a large number of American Catholics don’t accept it – perhaps as many as two thirds want to see women ordained (the number drops considerably if regular Mass attendees only are surveyed, but even so…). I find it helps to know where people stand when the altar girl question comes up. Especially if, in fact, they favor them but oppose ordaining women, why it is that they oppose it? Is it just because authority says so, or do they understand the theological reasons?

2) There’s a chicken-or-egg dynamic at work here. I think there’s a good argument that the…I will not say feminizing, but softening of spirituality in most of the Church – its quiet shift to a de facto Moral Therapeutic Deism (MTD) that worked to purge sin, judgment, repentance, sacrifice from church discourse as its lived posture beginning in postwar but supercharged after the Council – ultimately eviscerated the tough-minded spirituality of perseverance in adversity that was critical to keeping working class Catholics of either sex engaged, but especially *men*. And as the men, especially young men, began to vanish, women (who also decreased, but not at nearly the same rate) filtered into their roles. And once they fill up almost all the positions in a parish, this can create a dynamic which can be off-putting to many young men. But understood in this context, the latter is really a symptom and effect more than a cause (though it is that, too).

I do think there are some – not all, but some – pastors and even bishops who have gone out of their way to draw women into as many roles as possible, out of guilt or defensiveness that they cannot be ordained (and some, indeed, *would* like to ordain women). But I think this has been a secondary dynamic to the one I painted above.

noterroristsallowed

1. Christ did not appoint boys or girls to his ministry. He appointed men. So I have no issue with children helping the Priest.

2. I don’t believe women wanted to take the men’s roles away from them to spite them. I believe they wanted to serve the Lord. I also believe that Priest like the idea of women help them. Maybe Priests do like having women around them ( be it support in the office, or support at church). I have no problem supporting men in their roles. I believe most Catholic women enjoy the idea of supporting Catholic men.

3. The Bishops role is not to ordain women. As I believe only Christ can ordain.

Scelata

One quibble – will you all, including Dr Esolen, please stop referring to lay readers as “lectors”?
There are no “women lectors” in the Catholic Church.
“Lector” is an instituted ministry open only to men.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

noterroristsallowed

Have any of you Catholics ever engage in a debate among atheists who use to be Catholics/Christians. Do you understand why they left the Faith and turned against God? Honestly. I don’t know one person who left because they seen a woman on the altar, honestly.

Glenn M. Ricketts

What reasons did they give, in that case?

noterroristsallowed

The number one reason. Christians do not practice what they preach. The second reason are ignorant Catholics blaming everyone else but themselves for everything that goes on in the Church especially the children.

Glenn M. Ricketts

Did these folks themselves practice what was preached, I wonder? And what “ignorant Catholics” were blaming whom for what? Can you explain, please?

noterroristsallowed

I just read the article. There`s a whole lot of blame being passed on to the flock. So what if a priest is soft spoken. Christ may have been soft spoken. He did speak to women, which was a no no in those days.

Glenn M. Ricketts

I think there’s a bit more to the article than a priest’s soft-spokenness, wouldn’t you? And who are the “ignorant Catholics” you mentioned? Do you mean the author of the article? The posters commenting here?

noterroristsallowed

Don`t you think it`s ignorant to blame the ignorant if the Priest is the shepard.

GG

The article is referring to the type of priest that buys into the feminist ideology.

noterroristsallowed

He is not loyal to God but to female ideology. That makes him a traitor. So who is at fault here.

GG

Those who promote the ideology. There is a matter about the individual guilt and about the the cause of the ideology. It is not about just blaming one particular person. There is an over arching ideology that has effected generations within the Church.

noterroristsallowed

I do not believe there is anything wrong Vatican 2. The west has become a pagans ideology. I think this is where we went wrong. If the Church proved loyal to Pagan ideology, then the Church has failed. But it is not so, since hell can not prevail against the Church.

GG

Who mentioned VII? I was referring to the ideology that makes man the center of everything and is worldly.

noterroristsallowed

Exactly that is what my point is GG. Our mass is about “man” not God. Be it facing the altar, be it only men preaching, being about boys feeling uncomfortable, being about women keeping silent in Church. Where is God and the sinners in this message. It’s all about the “man”.

Glenn M. Ricketts

At the moment, I’m ignorant of what your point is. What do you mean?

Romulus

Don’t be silly, Glenn. Only faithful Christians who repeatedly sin and repent are hypocrites. The sinners who cheerfully preen in their disobedience are entirely free of that vice.

I dispute that. People may have more information than ever, many more are actually educated, but neither of these things have to do with intelligence.

noterroristsallowed

Intelligence and experience within the Catholic community. I grew up in a strong Catholic community. I went to all Catholic Girl`s schools. When the girls would speak out against the unfairness in our catholic upbringing, girls were often told to keep quite about our family problems. If men are called to be protectors of women, why have so many women today and in the past been the subject of torment and murder in religious societies. Why can`t the church teach women to defend themselves rather than telling us to be subject to weakness, sweetness, and passive. In the animal kingdom, even a female understand the importance to survival.

GG

Sounds like satire.

noterroristsallowed

It`s true. If a woman is up against 1 male, she may just indeed have a chance. If she is against a multitude of religious men(society) condemning her with stones, she does not stand a chance.

GG

Where is this happening? Not in any Church in the West.

noterroristsallowed

Christ himself stopped it. God knew he had to intervene to stop the madness men create. Like seriously, to kill every woman just because a man had sex with her. All the women would have disappeared. That`s men for ya.

GG

Huh?

What has that to do with the issue?

Romulus

Excuse me; that was the Old Covenant, when the people of God were under the Law. It was deeply problematic as both you and the apostle Paul appreciated. We have a New Covenant now. It’s a much better deal all round.

GG

No, they are not. In fact, due to the amount of vice they are more dumb.

Nope. More often than not it was their inability to keep their pants or skirts on. The arguments come afterwards out of rationalizing their weakness. Were they to recognize their it and that they need grace to keep themselves pure, God would have poured His graces over them.

noterroristsallowed

Christians fail to keep their pant or skirts on. We have a sacrament called confession or reconciliation because Christians often commit more sins than atheists.

GG

All heresy begins below the belt.

noterroristsallowed

That`s ignorant.

GG

No, it is true and it is an ancient saying.

GG

Exactly correct.

Romulus

I do — honestly. She died this month after a half-century’s estrangement from the Church, a victim of scandalous liturgical novelties inviting her to believe that everything was up for grabs.

noterroristsallowed

Guess what. I`ve been through the sex scandal age, and you know what I still went to mass every Sunday, even though I was deeply hurt. But am I going to leave the Church, because I saw a woman on the altar. That`s ignorant, just ignorant. Goes to show how committed a man is to any person other than himself.

GG

The “sex” scandal was about homosexual men and teen boys. That goes to the author’s point about effeminacy and the effects on the Church.

noterroristsallowed

Effeminacy and rape are two different things. If a Priest is homosexual but remains faithful to God, then I have no fault with him.

GG

The ideology that allowed it to happen is the issue.

Rick

It’s not worth the risk to our youth, let allow the typical effeminate alterations to the mass and catechisis that I have experienced to follow from these guys. That is why Pope Benedict XVI put forth the document on men seeking to enter the seminary that have homosexual tendancies not be permitted to enter. 50 yrs. to late but at least it finally got done. Don’t know how well the bishops have implemented it either. It seems that where it has been implemented there is an increase in vocations, Kansas, FSSP, and SSPX are fine examples. The FSSP and SSPX have been screening well since they were established. There may be a couple that have snuck through but it is much more rare in those societies than in most diocese. They have been so successful that a rather effeminate priest that was running vocations in my dioceces angrily told me that those societies were predjudice against them, any priestly vocation should be after the billions of dollars the Church has spend on sexual abuse of young men in the last 50 yrs.

noterroristsallowed

I understand. I’m just saying I have no problem with the effeminate man personally if he remains faithful to God. I just don’t want to be that person that turns him away from God, if he had done nothing wrong (God may get upset with me).

Rick

“if he remains faithful to God.” I would add “…and the teachings of His Church.” If that is true he would have my support.

noterroristsallowed

I agree.

noterroristsallowed

I understand this now, but as a very young person I didn’t understand this. When a young person listens to allegations of child abuse among the Priests on the news sites ever other week, this deeply affects them, because we see the Priest as a Person of Christ. I understand there is much more to the story now. I believe this affected many young people. The Church and our families didn’t understand this