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Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

Originally Posted by zimbardo

Agree with most of what you say. Probably with this bit also, as I honestly can't remember. But by time dilation, the one he used against Soi Fong slowed time down - this is the opposite of Respira. Can he do both at once? If not, then he can not slow Unohana down if she goes in for close combat.Not that it really matters as Respira will kill her if she goes close anyway...
Just asking out of interest...

I THINK that the slowing of time is only in his sealed state. Nobody ever got close enough to him for us to see if he has it when released.

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

I dont buy that. He can age kido, so spells have about the same effect as a material object. Unohana was shown to have techniques to basically revive Zaraki with her 'will'. If she has control over her powers to that extent she imo can use it to reverse the outward use of respira. His own ability is absolute like he says so even he can't withstand it. Thats a fact that peopld overlook, theres more than one way to subject him to his own laws, and I believe Unohana has the power to do so. Not to mention her extreme strength or reiatsu that allowed her to fully restore Zaraki countless times. How do you measure that? Thats an insane amount of reiatsu or power. And all fights are battles of Reiatsu as Aizen put it.

Last edited by freshseth83; July 12, 2013 at 05:08 AM.
Reason: spelling

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

In my eyes Unohanas bankai was acidic. Minazuki in shikai healed people with its regenerative stomach and what's in a stomach? Acid. It seemed to me that the effect flips to degenerative. Plus it was like 5 big waving streams of the stuff, pretty deadly.

And I think Unohanas sheer level of skill could allow her to fair much better against and unreleased Barragan than the young soi fon did.

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx

I THINK that the slowing of time is only in his sealed state. Nobody ever got close enough to him for us to see if he has it when released.

Well, I think he probably had that ability in released form, as well. It wasn't an ability attributed to his zanpakuto, but more of a basic ability like Sonido or Hierro were.
It's debatable, though, I'd agree with that.

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

Oooh, I remember posting a question elsewhere about how Unohana's bankai would affect Barragan. If it wouldn't, then she is fucked. On the other hand, Bleach wiki says she has 100 points in both Intelligence and Kido, so in theory, she should be able to do the same trick as Hachi.

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

Originally Posted by Zeta42

Oooh, I remember posting a question elsewhere about how Unohana's bankai would affect Barragan. If it wouldn't, then she is fucked. On the other hand, Bleach wiki says she has 100 points in both Intelligence and Kido, so in theory, she should be able to do the same trick as Hachi.

Don't see why it would. We are not even certain of what it does. For those who think it melts skin, why did did their skin come back without Kenpachi being "beaten" again? Why were they both melted and yet NEITHER affected in any way? And if it does melt away skin and organs ..... Barragan released has no skin and organs, so it is double the uselessness. That whole fight had A LOT of metaphorical imagery. And no she couldn't replicate Hachi's abilities because a lot of Hachi's barriers are said to be unique to him as a vaizard.

Originally Posted by freshseth83

I dont buy that. He can age kido, so spells have about the same effect as a material object. Unohana was shown to have techniques to basically revive Zaraki with her 'will'. If she has control over her powers to that extent she imo can use it to reverse the outward use of respira. His own ability is absolute like he says so even he can't withstand it. Thats a fact that peopld overlook, theres more than one way to subject him to his own laws, and I believe Unohana has the power to do so. Not to mention her extreme strength or reiatsu that allowed her to fully restore Zaraki countless times. How do you measure that? Thats an insane amount of reiatsu or power. And all fights are battles of Reiatsu as Aizen put it.

How? I do not understand how you can come to such a wild conclusion. She can reverse other peoples powers?
And we don't have enough knowledge on healing kaido to make hose claims of reiatsu. I think you are confusing Orihime's reversal of events with kaido, which only HEALS. No reversal of any kind. It is renewal.
As far as Aizen's quote goes, he happened to say that when Soifon was stabbing Hinamori, so not very compelling IMO, he could have just made it look like Suzumebuchi failed to mark him.

As for Kendo, Nnoitora was not cut in half, he received a huge mortal wound, but not split in half. Examples of people split in half, Allon by YAMA, Tesla and Giriko by Kenpachi. There have to be MASSIVE differences in reiatsu to pull of that kind of move. And not only that, but the wound that Nnoitora received would not phase Barragan, just another second for him to throw respira in her face.

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

This discussion will get awkward. Barragan is hax and I can't see Aizen touching him, let alone Unohana. Or maybe Aizen will use "Difference in reiatsu is too big, your ability doesn't affect me". Or Unohana could be so fast, that even while being slowed down Barragan wouldn't keep up. Not likely. I don't see how current Ichigo could even touch Barragan...

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

Bach split Yamamoto in half too, well, not symmetrically but still. Yamamoto knew everything was over and possibly accepted his destiny though, it may not be the best example for our situation. I doubt Unohana can kill Barragan with one kendo move but I think she can certainly deal some damage. Kenpachi is one of the major tanks in Bleach and she finished him off many times with ease. Such attacks can be used from a distance, so all Unohana needs is good timing and precise strike, which are both part of Unohana's skill set. Of course respira is a major problem but IMHO it can be stalled with barriers such as Bakudou 73 Touzanshou. If Kira is able to cast such a kidou, I think it's safe to assume Unohana can too and perhaps she can even make stronger barriers, she is a master of healing kidou after all. If she manages to buy some time and wear down his partly static and arguably not very bright opponent with her active style, she can pull off a win. When things don't go his way, Barragan is the kind of person who loses control which increases Unohana's chances in the long run. There's also the risk of Barragan dying before he can figure out he needs to release immediately. Unohana also has a bankai which arguably has the possibility to erode respira with its own acidic effect, I see many scenarios where Barragan is losing than him winning, I kinda lean to Unohana in this fight.

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx

Don't see why it would. We are not even certain of what it does. For those who think it melts skin, why did did their skin come back without Kenpachi being "beaten" again? Why were they both melted and yet NEITHER affected in any way? And if it does melt away skin and organs ..... Barragan released has no skin and organs, so it is double the uselessness. That whole fight had A LOT of metaphorical imagery. And no she couldn't replicate Hachi's abilities because a lot of Hachi's barriers are said to be unique to him as a vaizard.

Hachi used a teleportation Kido on a rotting object to kill Barragan. It didn't even have to be his arm, although it did seem like body parts age slower than buildings and poles (which makes no sense). Teleportation isn't unique to Hachi; Tessai can do it too. Unohana can beat Barragan if she knows that Kido, as well.

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

Originally Posted by Zeta42

Hachi used a teleportation Kido on a rotting object to kill Barragan. It didn't even have to be his arm, although it did seem like body parts age slower than buildings and poles (which makes no sense). Teleportation isn't unique to Hachi; Tessai can do it too. Unohana can beat Barragan if she knows that Kido, as well.

Unohana is a sword fighting SOB who learned healing from a master healer so that she can be of use in a non combat way and avoid fighting (I'm presuming the latter most thing). Who said she is a master of bakudo or hado? No body. Saying Tessai and Hachi can do a certain kido, why not other high level kido users is silly and presumptuous. Tessai had to use forbidden techniques to teleport that EVEN URAHARA WASN'T AWARE OF, and as mentioned previously, Hachi's abilities are unique to him. They are self made bakudo, so Unohona performing those is not happening. If she can't do those bakudo, and there is such little reason to think she can, than what other chances does she have?

Bringing up her feats against Kenpachi does not tell us how she will match up against someone like Barragan without a fitting context. Kenpachi doesnt have anything remotely similar to Barragan's ability.

Originally Posted by Miyagi

Bach split Yamamoto in half too, well, not symmetrically but still. Yamamoto knew everything was over and possibly accepted his destiny though, it may not be the best example for our situation. I doubt Unohana can kill Barragan with one kendo move but I think she can certainly deal some damage. Kenpachi is one of the major tanks in Bleach and she finished him off many times with ease. Such attacks can be used from a distance, so all Unohana needs is good timing and precise strike, which are both part of Unohana's skill set. Of course respira is a major problem but IMHO it can be stalled with barriers such as Bakudou 73 Touzanshou. If Kira is able to cast such a kidou, I think it's safe to assume Unohana can too and perhaps she can even make stronger barriers, she is a master of healing kidou after all. If she manages to buy some time and wear down his partly static and arguably not very bright opponent with her active style, she can pull off a win. When things don't go his way, Barragan is the kind of person who loses control which increases Unohana's chances in the long run. There's also the risk of Barragan dying before he can figure out he needs to release immediately. Unohana also has a bankai which arguably has the possibility to erode respira with its own acidic effect, I see many scenarios where Barragan is losing than him winning, I kinda lean to Unohana in this fight.

Hachi's barriers cannot be compared to Kira's, there is a huge gap where we have to speculate Unohona lies somewhere between. Bakudo and Kaido aren't the same. I don't doubt she is good with it, I doubt she can compare to Hachi though, whose emergency masked powered barrier was destroyed very easily by a pissed off wounded Barragan.

Sword attacks from a distance? I really don't think that is a serious thing to consider IMO. Eroding Respira doesn't make sense. It is just as founded, or unfounded to say Respira will age the possibly non existent acid effect to the point of not happening.

HOW is she going to hit him? When her sword and arm are turned to dust by his res dilation field, or slowed to a crawl in his non res dilation field?

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

Well, there're numerous instances in the manga where characters cut stuff far beyond their sword's reach, it seems they use reiatsu to extend the line of attack, this is some sort of sword technique which Unohana excels in. IMHO you don't have to stand next to Barragan to cut him, Unohana can do that from a distance where she doesn't start aging due to Barragan's decay aura. Bakudo barriers aren't meant to stop Barragan per se but I think they can be used to stop the flow of respira for a brief while which creates enough time for Unohana to shunpo away when necessary. Acid, by its very nature, erodes substances, if the reaction between acid and respira makes respira less effective by making respira lose potency and get eroded in the process, it makes Unohana's job easier. Of course this is assuming Unohana's bankai is the acid mist, if that dark substance flowing from her sword is meant to make her sword attacks much more powerful, that works too. IMHO Unohana with her extraordinary reiatsu control and precise sword strikes can certainly bypass Barragan's field to damage him.

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx

Unohana is a sword fighting SOB who learned healing from a master healer so that she can be of use in a non combat way and avoid fighting (I'm presuming the latter most thing). Who said she is a master of bakudo or hado? No body. Saying Tessai and Hachi can do a certain kido, why not other high level kido users is silly and presumptuous. Tessai had to use forbidden techniques to teleport that EVEN URAHARA WASN'T AWARE OF, and as mentioned previously, Hachi's abilities are unique to him. They are self made bakudo, so Unohona performing those is not happening. If she can't do those bakudo, and there is such little reason to think she can, than what other chances does she have?

Bringing up her feats against Kenpachi does not tell us how she will match up against someone like Barragan without a fitting context. Kenpachi doesnt have anything remotely similar to Barragan's ability.

Hachi's barriers cannot be compared to Kira's, there is a huge gap where we have to speculate Unohona lies somewhere between. Bakudo and Kaido aren't the same. I don't doubt she is good with it, I doubt she can compare to Hachi though, whose emergency masked powered barrier was destroyed very easily by a pissed off wounded Barragan.

Sword attacks from a distance? I really don't think that is a serious thing to consider IMO. Eroding Respira doesn't make sense. It is just as founded, or unfounded to say Respira will age the possibly non existent acid effect to the point of not happening.

HOW is she going to hit him? When her sword and arm are turned to dust by his res dilation field, or slowed to a crawl in his non res dilation field?

the sword attack from a distance does make sense. the force of the slash is extended through the air, i dont see how bara can age air.

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

Didn't say it doesn't happen, but no one has had to base their entire fight off of sword attacks from a distance, and why would that be enough for Barragan if that hits? If someone can find specific examples of this in the manga it would be appreciated.

Why does the acid effect (that just as likely does NOT exist) take precedence over Respira's effect? Time does not yield to acidity, acidity takes place over time. Even IF her bankai does have an acid effect, it inflicted both her and Kenpachi, and they kept fighting. If it wasn't their physical bodies moving them due to lack of muscles and organs, then it was their spiritual power moving them, meaning it doesn't effect their spiritual power.

And air pressure does age if it loses power over time which it does. Doesn't mean this form of attack can't reach Barragan as he seems to be susceptible to OVERWHELMING forces of energy, but it would be weakened. So already that's taking an inefficient fighting style of air pressure slashes, weakening anything that does manage to be on target passively via time dilation, and if released, it can be actively weakened by Respira. Whether he ages or slows it down, no reason why his power combined with durability can't handle "long range sword slash air pressure".

Just to recap, some of the defenses for Unohona are fighting melee style at a range based on air pressure alone and/or melting time manipulation. This doesn't seem like straw grasping at all? Not being sarcastic, just can't see it any other way.

Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Unohana vs Barragan

That's funny. To make Unohana win you start to talk nonsense about cutting air? What is it? Magician? What is next? Cutting the space itself? He controls time. Bakudou 73 working? Gimme a break, Kido DOES age. Attack from distance? Not happening. People in Bleach attacking from distance? Didn't happen. We see shunpo with a slash, but slashing air and THEN opponent WITHOUT some kind of technique? Please... Acidic bankai? It melted, yup. Did it melt flash? Then Unohana DID reverse time to heal Kenpachi? His skin somehow came back? During this fight Kubo used lots of metaphors and I wouldn't talk about Unohana's abilities without getting proper explanation. We hardly saw her Bankai. It was just ACTIVATED, Kenpachi became skeleton, in next panel was OK (And he was still in the same movement, not like he was somewhere else). During running towards Unohana she melted him, then healed him and he didn't notice? And soon after that the bankai was gone and couldn't do anything? It disappeared? Gimme a break. If this is acid, it can age, it disappears as everything. Kido can age= reiatsu can age. If something isn't out of reiatsu and is material, IT AGES. Even if her acid could melt flash, BARRAGAN HAS NO FLESH TO BEGIN WITH.

Respira is completely HAX. Don't try to make Unohana pull some skill out of nowhere and beat him. Shooting air? Not happening. Using same Kido as Hachi? NOT HAPPENING. The only Kido she used so far was healing kido, as far as I remember. Getting close? Shoot respira around you and wait for her to come. Shooting Kido? Age it. Not getting close? She won't deal damage, chase her with your big ass axe. She gets close then? Shoot damn respira before a slash. She suddenly shoots air because fanboys said so? SLOW THE DAMN TIME TO SLOW IT DOWN AND WAVE YOUR HAND. It is NOT a blade, so shooting air won't do ANY good.

Barragan SHOULDN'T be in Bleach tournament.

PS. Don't get me wrong, I love Unohana as a character and I know she is crazy strong and could wipe the floor with Hachi. But A>B>C there is just wrong. The only one who can counter Barragan's ability are Hachi and maybe Tessai (we DON'T know). Well, maybe Ichigo and Aizen, as they're "transcendental" and "two dimensional being can't interfere with three-dimensional being" (referring to reiatsu) and difference in reiatsu can NULLIFY ability. Unohana doesn't seem to have such tremendous reiatsu. I still love her.