A fine subject indeed, hopefully hints of the future for the Kroot will become apparent when the T'au codex is released. However, you should change the title to something more fitting actual debate. Wishlisting is generally frowned upon on ATT.

I think the major thing the kroot need is to be actually useful in combat. If carnivores had 2 S4 AP-1 attacks in combat they'd maybe be worth a look. But as it is, it's just not worth it. I think an extra +1 cover bonus when they're in cover would also be something that gives them a little help vs small arms fire.

The krottox needs to have a redefinition of what it is I think. Currently it's all over the place. It has an advance move that's like a bike but then it cant fire it's weapon if it does so, it has a relatively good combat attack but is generally slow and has no delivery system. I'd love it to be a mobile assault unit with a bit of shooting (bit like an ork unit). If we gave it's gun the following profile: Assault 2 R24" S7 AP-1 D2. Then lower the cost of the gun, and make it a bit tougher with a 4+ sv. Then we have a fast moving skirmishing unit that can take potshots, help out in assault and generally be a good all purpose unit.

The Shapers need BS 3+, WS 2+, Re-roll wound's of 1 for KROOT, and to be an HQ. Help them be an actual buff unit. Make it worth the points to take 20-30 Kroot Carnivores and a shaper to act as a great countercharge. Lie in wait with +2 to their cover save, then when the enemy reaches our lines, they move forward and charge. Alternatively they can use their vanguard type move to get into an ambush position/act as a screen.

Even a few of these changes would make them much more viable and a lot more fluffy.

I like normal Kroot, even if they aren't perfect. They are fast and cheap troops. But I fear they can't compete with fire warriors once Septs are a thing.Giving them more combat prowess would be okay, but I would prefer something more tactical useful. +2 for cover or - 1 to hit while in cover to let them take objectives. Or just bigger advanced move.

My biggest beef with shapers is their slot. HQ would allow them to be taken easier. And of course every rule carnivores get.

My biggest concearn is that all those cool kroot units have no synergy whatsoever between them, and even with their own rules!

For example:

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:The krottox needs to have a redefinition of what it is I think. Currently it's all over the place. It has an advance move that's like a bike but then it cant fire it's weapon if it does soR'Kai

This is so telling on how kroot were adapted to 8th edition, fast and without much though on it. Also, Sv6+ on a T5 W3 and 30+ points model is just not viable. With just a 10man AM squad you kill 2 of them... Also, they don't even do well shooting nor melee, at 2 attacks each with no AP.

Then you have Kroot carnivores and hounds, which are close to being fine on their own, but with no synergy between them at all.

And after all that you look for the unit that should put all kroot pieces together (or at least have synergy with all of them separately) and it just don't. While the Krootox riders are the best example of a bad unit on its own, Kroot Shaper is the best to show us how bad the kroot units were designed:

- You can take some Carnivores to hold some objective markers or advance fast thanks to their 7" Vanguard move before game starts, but your Shaper cannot follow you, he doen't have that free move.- You can have some hounds to make a fast ambush to the first enemy lines, or even reach some units after the first screen. But oh well, your support character cannot follow you, he not only moves almost half their distance, but he also does not have their special re-roll failed charge rule. Either you are going at 7" per turn speed (your hounds are not reaching combat on 3rd turn at T3 Sv6+, they will be dead), or your hounds are alone with their Ld5 and not re-rolling 1's to wound (your Shaper will not be able to reach those hounds on time, as they tend to die at the first round of melee).- You can put some Krootox riders to make an anbush moving at 7"+6" per turn, but not only you are not shooting your only (and expensive, looking at the Missile Pod points) weapon, but also your Shaper is moving at 7"+1D6", which may not be enough.- Your only option is to feature Krootox riders to shoot from behind at 34p per shot at BS4+ (so 68p per hit) with the shapers aura of rerolling 1's to wound. Shooting kroot? I thought T'au were the ones that are supposed to be shooting while their technologically underdeveloped frieds tried to not be useless in the combat phase...I hope for a major redesign, and personally, I am hopefull that they will do so, either with new rules with this next T'au codex, or with a T'au allies Codex with Vespid and some sweet new surprise for us!

Torch wrote:Kroot really need an extra attack. Ork boyz are 6 pts too and they get 2 attacks with the option to get up to 4.

That said, Kroot have much stronger shooting, with BS4+ and a 24" gun, and the infiltrate rule. 6 points is too expensive, but it might only take a small decrease in points to make them worth it!

I think the main issue isn't their cost, it comes down to the fact that they don't really actually DO anything. They are awful at shooting, awful in combat, and die if you look at them funny. If they were kept the same price but given an extra attack and S4 AP-1 for example, all of a sudden that makes them a fully competent counter charge unit. I'd happily take BS 5+ if we got the extra combat capabilities in return. Also some sort of cover bonus like SM Scout camo cloaks. That way they can actually stand up to a lasgun and still be useful.

Do you think this would make them way too strong? Perhaps just 2 S4 attcks OR 1 S4 AP-1 attack?

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:I think the main issue isn't their cost, it comes down to the fact that they don't really actually DO anything. They are awful at shooting, awful in combat, and die if you look at them funny.

What they do well is screen- they cost 50% more than Guardsmen or Cultists, but offer better firepower, better close combat, and the ability to make a pre-game scout move. I think their abilities are all there- they just need the points decrease.

Arka0415 wrote:What they do well is screen- they cost 50% more than Guardsmen or Cultists, but offer better firepower, better close combat, and the ability to make a pre-game scout move. I think their abilities are all there- they just need the points decrease.

This is very true. I just don't like the thought of their only purpose to be to fill up the board a bit then die immediately. From a purely competitive standpoint this is probably what we need from them. Since the hound model is very hard to come by, it falls to Carnivores to be cheap screening.

Personally I've never really liked the kroot, I don't like their aesthetic along with the clean and sleek Tau, but if they got their own codex and a new model range that meant getting some hounds was easier I'd consider them for sure!

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:This is very true. I just don't like the thought of their only purpose to be to fill up the board a bit then die immediately. From a purely competitive standpoint this is probably what we need from them. Since the hound model is very hard to come by, it falls to Carnivores to be cheap screening.

Right now we use Gun Drones for this role, since they're so much better! Given the right update though Kroot might be the right unit- I mean, looking at their datasheet, screening is what they seem to be supposed to do!

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:Personally I've never really liked the kroot, I don't like their aesthetic along with the clean and sleek Tau, but if they got their own codex and a new model range that meant getting some hounds was easier I'd consider them for sure!

R'Kai

I thought I was the only person! I mean, I have some, because I'm a completionist, but I don't like how they look at all, same with vespid.

Having said that, I have Vespid proxies that look like T'au now, maybe I can find a way to Kroot proxy too.

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:I think the main issue isn't their cost, it comes down to the fact that they don't really actually DO anything. They are awful at shooting, awful in combat, and die if you look at them funny.

What they do well is screen- they cost 50% more than Guardsmen or Cultists, but offer better firepower, better close combat, and the ability to make a pre-game scout move. I think their abilities are all there- they just need the points decrease.

I agree, at 5p per Carnivore and a general fixing of the other Kroot units (Shaper most of all), I think they become a pretty desirable choice in many lists!