Well I guess you're right they got a verdict. Now it's up to the AFL commission to decided on the Brownlow. Keeping in mind that the AFL court ruling found the players innocent. What will they do is anyone's guess but I say let Jobe keep the Charlie if the AFL court ruling found them innocent.

You cannot sign up to WADA codes and then overrule a verdict you don't like if you wish to remain credible. It would make the AFL look pious and in the eyes of the world, like a spoilt kid who didn't like the outcome so took the bat & ball and went home.

AFL are a signatory to the WADA code. Are you suggesting they should do it themselves? And before you say 'yes' - remember the AFL let players have two free hits at illicit drugs before the third strike and you're out.

AFL are a signatory to the WADA code. Are you suggesting they should do it themselves? And before you say 'yes' - remember the AFL let players have two free hits at illicit drugs before the third strike and you're out.

I believe the AFL should do it themselves. The NFL and I believe other sports in the USA do. We're not talking about illcit drugs here that is a whole other matter. What we're talking about the AFL Commission having the power to let Jobe Watson keep his Brownlow or take it away. Only the Commission have this power not WADDA or anyone else in the world.

The AFL can't be trusted to do it themselves. It becomes a self-serving exercise when you're in charge and it removes any objectivity.

The AFL can let Jobe Watson keep his Brownlow but what it implies is that they're willing to ignore the rulings of those organisations they signed on with. It would make the whole thing even more farcical than it is.

WHat made it worse was the AFL don't have the plums to make a call on it. They instead invited Jobe to essentially beg to keep the medal or throw it in voluntarily. Weak as pi55 in my opinion. Be decisive and take it or don't but don't leave it on the player - it's not his decision to make and is totally unfair.

Sub i understand they have followed the rules and guidelines they have, i just personally an uncomfortable that people are getting suspended and potentially losing awards because of what is essentially people deciding that they think they took something, with not a lot of hard evidence.

AFL are a signatory to the WADA code. Are you suggesting they should do it themselves? And before you say 'yes' - remember the AFL let players have two free hits at illicit drugs before the third strike and you're out.

I believe the AFL should do it themselves. The NFL and I believe other sports in the USA do. We're not talking about illcit drugs here that is a whole other matter. What we're talking about the AFL Commission having the power to let Jobe Watson keep his Brownlow or take it away. Only the Commission have this power not WADDA or anyone else in the world.

Using the NFL as an example doesn't help your cause. 4 game bans for steroids. Most players on HGH, it is not the path the AFL should ever consider. Sports should never regulate themselves, as the truth will always be compromised, should that truth be an uncomfortable one for the sport.

SUbbie have you ever played at a footy club at State level or AFL? There is a culture from the bottom right up to the top. As a player trying out or on the list you do as you're told or you're gone. If the club doctor or medical staff has said it is ok to take then in the players minds it ok and legal to do so.

Yes mate. Played for West Adelaide juniors and reserves in the SANFL. Only a shocking knee injury prevented me from being one of the great ruck rovers in modern times.........

I would never have done what Essendon asked me to do. Not in a million years. The secrecy, the off-shore injections, Bruce Reid not being involved etc. All massive flags that all wasn't above board. There was no pressure on Zaharakis to not do it, so I would have felt completely comfortable in wanting far more info before injecting myself thousands of times.

I was always copping it at footy (jokingly) for being different and an "alternative weirdo" due to not having same interests as most players, so was always comfortable in not following others, and would have been happy to do so again on this issue.

SUbbie have you ever played at a footy club at State level or AFL? There is a culture from the bottom right up to the top. As a player trying out or on the list you do as you're told or you're gone. If the club doctor or medical staff has said it is ok to take then in the players minds it ok and legal to do so.

Yes mate. Played for West Adelaide juniors and reserves in the SANFL. Only a shocking knee injury prevented me from being one of the great ruck rovers in modern times.........

I would never have done what Essendon asked me to do. Not in a million years. The secrecy, the off-shore injections, Bruce Reid not being involved etc. All massive flags that all wasn't above board. There was no pressure on Zaharakis to not do it, so I would have felt completely comfortable in wanting far more info before injecting myself thousands of times.

I was always copping it at footy (jokingly) for being different and an "alternative weirdo" due to not having same interests as most players, so was always comfortable in not following others, and would have been happy to do so again on this issue.

Subbie Zaharakis didn't do because he was scared of needles. If Bruce Reid was or wasn't involved I'm not sure or I'm not sure of how much he knew. Either way Essendon walked in Dank a sports chemist who was supposedly an expert in sports science. Who's to say Dank didn't give the players all the info they needed? or what he wanted to tell them to know?

That is fair enough what you have said about how you would have coped with it as well in your way. each to their own I say. Like if the footy club gave me all the information from a specialist doctor and he/she said it was legal and safe to take I would have done it like the players did.

AFL are a signatory to the WADA code. Are you suggesting they should do it themselves? And before you say 'yes' - remember the AFL let players have two free hits at illicit drugs before the third strike and you're out.

I believe the AFL should do it themselves. The NFL and I believe other sports in the USA do. We're not talking about illcit drugs here that is a whole other matter. What we're talking about the AFL Commission having the power to let Jobe Watson keep his Brownlow or take it away. Only the Commission have this power not WADDA or anyone else in the world.

Using the NFL as an example doesn't help your cause. 4 game bans for steroids. Most players on HGH, it is not the path the AFL should ever consider. Sports should never regulate themselves, as the truth will always be compromised, should that truth be an uncomfortable one for the sport.

How many players now in the AFL are full of pain killers etc, etc, etc and illicit drugs?

Sub i understand they have followed the rules and guidelines they have, i just personally an uncomfortable that people are getting suspended and potentially losing awards because of what is essentially people deciding that they think they took something, with not a lot of hard evidence.

Now imagine the law suits that are coming for lose of earning and so on. Watson would be worth a lot more in the media after football as a Brownlow medallist than one who has had his medal stripped

SUbbie have you ever played at a footy club at State level or AFL? There is a culture from the bottom right up to the top. As a player trying out or on the list you do as you're told or you're gone. If the club doctor or medical staff has said it is ok to take then in the players minds it ok and legal to do so.

Yes mate. Played for West Adelaide juniors and reserves in the SANFL. Only a shocking knee injury prevented me from being one of the great ruck rovers in modern times.........

I would never have done what Essendon asked me to do. Not in a million years. The secrecy, the off-shore injections, Bruce Reid not being involved etc. All massive flags that all wasn't above board. There was no pressure on Zaharakis to not do it, so I would have felt completely comfortable in wanting far more info before injecting myself thousands of times.

I was always copping it at footy (jokingly) for being different and an "alternative weirdo" due to not having same interests as most players, so was always comfortable in not following others, and would have been happy to do so again on this issue.

Subbie Zaharakis didn't do because he was scared of needles. If Bruce Reid was or wasn't involved I'm not sure or I'm not sure of how much he knew. Either way Essendon walked in Dank a sports chemist who was supposedly an expert in sports science. Who's to say Dank didn't give the players all the info they needed? or what he wanted to tell them to know?

That is fair enough what you have said about how you would have coped with it as well in your way. each to their own I say. Like if the footy club gave me all the information from a specialist doctor and he/she said it was legal and safe to take I would have done it like the players did.

The information never came from a "specialist doctor". It came from a chemist who said it was all OK whilst saying it's a big secret and kept no paperwork. He told the players to keep it secret and they agreed. No player ever, despite all the training and warnings about the club Doctor having the final say, ever raised the alarm or asked a question.

Dank claims they're innocent yet has no paperwork or refuses to speak the truth. So he's either lying or he's compromised by something else.

SUbbie have you ever played at a footy club at State level or AFL? There is a culture from the bottom right up to the top. As a player trying out or on the list you do as you're told or you're gone. If the club doctor or medical staff has said it is ok to take then in the players minds it ok and legal to do so.

Yes mate. Played for West Adelaide juniors and reserves in the SANFL. Only a shocking knee injury prevented me from being one of the great ruck rovers in modern times.........

I would never have done what Essendon asked me to do. Not in a million years. The secrecy, the off-shore injections, Bruce Reid not being involved etc. All massive flags that all wasn't above board. There was no pressure on Zaharakis to not do it, so I would have felt completely comfortable in wanting far more info before injecting myself thousands of times.

I was always copping it at footy (jokingly) for being different and an "alternative weirdo" due to not having same interests as most players, so was always comfortable in not following others, and would have been happy to do so again on this issue.

Subbie Zaharakis didn't do because he was scared of needles. If Bruce Reid was or wasn't involved I'm not sure or I'm not sure of how much he knew. Either way Essendon walked in Dank a sports chemist who was supposedly an expert in sports science. Who's to say Dank didn't give the players all the info they needed? or what he wanted to tell them to know?

That is fair enough what you have said about how you would have coped with it as well in your way. each to their own I say. Like if the footy club gave me all the information from a specialist doctor and he/she said it was legal and safe to take I would have done it like the players did.

The information never came from a "specialist doctor". It came from a chemist who said it was all OK whilst saying it's a big secret and kept no paperwork. He told the players to keep it secret and they agreed. No player ever, despite all the training and warnings about the club Doctor having the final say, ever raised the alarm or asked a question.

Dank claims they're innocent yet has no paperwork or refuses to speak the truth. So he's either lying or he's compromised by something else.

If Dank has the info he claims to have, why doesn't he clear the air?

And no player tested positive to illegal substances. Go figure???????? I'd love to see Dank on the stand as well but it's not going to happen?

92- 96. 17's, 19's and reserves. Funnily enough, we went from losing the grand final in u/17's to losing every game, yep every game in the 19's the next year!! Considering we had 3 future AFL players in Matthew Nicks, Tyson Edwards and Ben Marsh in that team, was incredible we sucked so hard!!!

Man you had some good player in your side back then. I played in the N.T. in 89-90 and before that in the U19's at St Kilda. Robert Harvey,Nathan Burke, Jayson daniels. Peter Freeman, Gorden Fode who cried when he lost his tooth cap by one of the Ballarat boy while on camp in a contact drill

So you demand paperwork before they can be proved innocent, but you don't require it for them to be found guilty?

Kangaroo court anyone?

It's not me mate. It's the system the AFL and by extension, the AFL Player signed up to. As I've said 10000 times - you can't sign up to something and then turn your back when it spits out a verdict you don't like.

Sorry EI, this discussion should be in the other dedicated threads, but a few facts need to be stated.

There was no "AFL court", merely a tribunal which operated according to its own set of rules. Nothing at all like a court. They, like ASADA, could not compel people to provide testimony, had their own level of "proof", and were obviously not "independent".

The AFL tribunal also did not find players "innocent". Without testing all the evidence properly they had no way of credibly reaching such a conclusion. The tribunal was, possibly correctly in the absence of absolute proof (such as the testimony of the importing chemist, who is THE key figure given he faces no sanction, unlike Dank), unwilling to make connections which ASADA did. They were unable to be "comfortably satisfied" that the players violated anti-doping rules.

Although I think players are to an extent victims (of the leadership and culture at Essendon, and their own ignorance and naivety), I support the sanctions (much of which could have been avoided had Essendon chosen the right course once the issue blew up). I also believe Watson should be stripped of the Brownlow.

On the other hand the decision to stop a banned player from attending Ken Judge's memorial service is just plain wrong.

If you had a system where a positive test was mandatory to be produced to ban an athlete - you would never see one caught. The chemists are always going to be better resourced and drug testing is reactive in its nature; they can't predict what the chemists are doing, they must react after the fact.

The players signed up to the system on which they were judged - if you don't like the rules then don't play the game.

I think what this shows more than anything was the ignorance of AFL footballers and their clubs. That they could sign to a code as strict as ASADA and WADA and still think they could play dumb and not report things, and still believe that they werent cheating, not like those cheating Chinese swimmers and Russian athletes. They are proper cheats, we are just playing the system!!

I think what this shows more than anything was the ignorance of AFL footballers and their clubs. That they could sign to a code as strict as ASADA and WADA and still think they could play dumb and not report things, and still believe that they werent cheating, not like those cheating Chinese swimmers and Russian athletes. They are proper cheats, we are just playing the system!!

You've just hit the nail on the head there Subbie. It's all a culture thing in footy clubs. It starts at the top and runs right down to the bottom. The whole culture and attitudes of clubs needs to improve.

Yes Sub, even if you choose to ignore the reams of circumstantial evidence, the secrecy surrounding the Essendon program is damning. No doubt they knew they were playing on the fringes otherwise they'd have involved the club doctor and had their chemicals tested and approved. This is why Hird's involvement as coach, mentor and club icon was so critical and why his lack of contrition and attempts to offload responsibility is so pathetic.

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