4.5 isn't much of a deficit but the way the Tribe and the Tigers are playing, it might as well be 14.5. And I don't see us hanging around in the wild card jumble either.

If that's the case, what deals should they consider? The only untouchables in my mind are Cabrera, Brantley, Kipnis, and Chisenhall (because they're too good and signed for too long) and Ubaldo and Santana (because I hate selling low). They could probably get a king's ransom for Choo right now but you're essentially throwing away next year, not to mention taking another giant PR hit. I don't see it happening.

Perez is probably the one to trade because you have an able replacement ready to go and he doesn't like it here anyway. But you need someone desperate for a good closer. Anyone else I'm forgetting? I'd love to unload some of our free agents to be but they all stink right now (Lowe, Kotchman, etc.).

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

Selling means another start-over for the wonderful Shapiro-Antonetti duo. It means that Shapiro's 2009 and 2010 plea to fans to wait until 2012 or 2013 to be competitive for the playoffs is totally down the tubes. (I don't consider being competitive for the first three months of the season being competitive at all.)

Right now, the Tribe's talent pool doesn't exist, not on the major league level, not anywhere in the organization. If you are "selling" guys like Choo, you're admitting that consistent winning is not in the offing for at least three to five more years--pretty much the same story we have been hearing since John Hart left.

googleeph2 wrote:Agree, except about DiBiasio. He apparently does a nice job with the charities, but as a public information front office guy, the lack of promotion of the team falls on him to a large extent, no?

What I'm saying is that Shaponetti isn't giving DiBiasio anything to work with. It doesn't take fans long to see through the lies and stupidity, including the "what-if" promos and ads.

The Browns have Trent Richardson, Brandon Weeden (at least for now), Joe Haden, Joe Thomas and others. Even the lowly Cavaliers have a burgeoning superstar in Kyrie Irving. Who you gonna promote on the Indians? Choo? Michael Brantley? Chris Perez, the publicist's worst nightmare? AsCab, the All-Star? Kipnis? Meh. It's not like we're talking Albert Belle or CC Sabathia or even Grady Sizemore or a young Travis Hafner, all quality performers and (except for Belle) promotable personalities.

By saying we are sellers you are implying we actually have pieces to sell Just Kiddding......but in all seriousness:

The most prudent, safe, realistic(whatever word you want to use) thing to do would be to sell, however with the Ubaldo trade, and the PR hit they would take, although not sure how much worse attendance could get or whether it would be that crippling financially, they have backed themselves into a corner to try and contend again next year without a fire sale this year. That sucks in the aspect that if they decided to trade Choo and Cabrera next year, rather than try and keep them, their value takes hits due to being closer to free agency.

That being said I am interested to see what they would do going into an offseason with a pretty good chunk of money coming off the books,(expiring contracts, $ saved from draft) I think we are all still in agreement that have a pretty good core but it needs to be augmented with a few more pieces.

I think they will stand pat this year and try to reload the best they can and go for it next year.

It is a seller's market, right Mr. Shapiro? Isn't this what you tweeted at all of us that are not nearly as smart as you are? Then you should be able to acquire some ML ready talent to fill some of the holes you have created. So this shouldn't be a rebuild. It should be viewed as moves to contend next year.

Of course, we won't do that. Or we will and then play the service clock game.

Whatever it is they do, I am quite sure the results will be shitty.

Probably too late for the Paul Goldschmidt deal I was begging for last year, but there are others.

The Giants are interested in Indians closer Chris Perez, Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports report. The Indians, 47-48 after losing four consecutive games, are not planning a massive overhaul in the next week, since they intend to contend in 2013. Yet the Indians constantly gauge trade interest in their roster and could move established players strategically before the end of the month.

If the Indians trade Major Leaguers such as Perez and Shin-Soo Choo, they’d look to obtain players who could strengthen their current team, Rosenthal and Morosi report. GM Chris Antonetti has been monitoring the trade market for a starting pitcher and a right-handed bat.

Perez, 27, has a 3.06 ERA with 10.4 K/9, 1.8 BB/9 and 26 saves so far this year. The right-hander earns $4.5MM in 2012 and can expect a raise to $7MM or so after the season, when he's arbitration eligible for the third time. Perez, a super two player, will remain under team control through 2014.

Giants relievers have combined for a 3.41 ERA with 7.8 K/9 and 3.2 BB/9 so far this year. However, closer Brian Wilson will miss the remainder of the season after undergoing Tommy John surgery and Guillermo Mota is on the restricted list following a 100-game suspension.

Kingpin74 wrote:4.5 isn't much of a deficit but the way the Tribe and the Tigers are playing, it might as well be 14.5. And I don't see us hanging around in the wild card jumble either.

If that's the case, what deals should they consider? The only untouchables in my mind are Cabrera, Brantley, Kipnis, and Chisenhall (because they're too good and signed for too long) and Ubaldo and Santana (because I hate selling low). They could probably get a king's ransom for Choo right now but you're essentially throwing away next year, not to mention taking another giant PR hit. I don't see it happening.

Perez is probably the one to trade because you have an able replacement ready to go and he doesn't like it here anyway. But you need someone desperate for a good closer. Anyone else I'm forgetting? I'd love to unload some of our free agents to be but they all stink right now (Lowe, Kotchman, etc.).

Kenny Rosenthal agrees (well speculates at least)

According to FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi, the Giants have interest in Chris Perez.Perez, 27, has posted a sparkling 3.06 ERA and 1.05 WHIP in 35 1/3 innings this season as Cleveland's closer. But he's likely to top $7 million in salary arbitration heading into the 2013 campaign and the Indians have a decent group of setup men capable of stepping into the ninth-inning role. It's feasible that a trade could happen this year, whether with San Francisco or another club.

Rotoworld

If the next two-four series don't see us reduce the deficit then we may have to entertain possible offers for our coveted players like Perez.However we're still only 2ish games back of the second Wildcard.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

It's been stated here before, but how hard would it have been to market Kipnis/Chisenhall/Phelps somehow?Etc. Etc. If it were my full-time gig, I'd figure it out. Appearances, ads. Sponsorships of stuff.The New Generation.

And that's not getting into the lack of access I have experienced in trying to get them to help me in accessing former players for articles for this site. This site is linked by their site, STO- so there should be no competition issue.

googleeph2 wrote:It's been stated here before, but how hard would it have been to market Kipnis/Chisenhall/Phelps somehow?Etc. Etc. If it were my full-time gig, I'd figure it out. Appearances, ads. Sponsorships of stuff.The New Generation.

British_Pharaoh wrote:If the next two-four series don't see us reduce the deficit then we may have to entertain possible offers for our coveted players like Perez.However we're still only 2ish games back of the second Wildcard.

We've got 8 days to pull off a deal like this one. There is no way a guy like Perez or any of the Tribes younger marketable players make it through waivers for the waiver trade deadline.

Guys like Kotchman/Damon/Lowe could, but they are, for the most part, spare parts. None of those guys is bringing back anything significant in a deal.

If we're making any moves to add young, major-league ready talent back, it has to be by next week.

I'm not sure we match up well with too many teams let alone the Giants for Perez as it is. We would have to value him as a closer to try to get a max return but I would assume most teams would say they only value him as a middle reliever or a fringe closer. So I'm not sure how much "young ML talent" (as the article states that they want) they realistically could get to help their major league roster for Perez. IMO If they really wanted to try to maximize player value for Perez they would have to zero in on multiple A-ball high upside guys. I don't see anybody giving up multiple young ML ready players. Plus Sabean already said no Zach Wheeler deals this year, but then again it is the ML trading deadline so who the hell knows.

But If they traded him now without getting any high impact guys, I would assume the real value would come from saving about 4.5 million dollars next year. Since they have so many in house candidates.

British_Pharaoh wrote:If the next two-four series don't see us reduce the deficit then we may have to entertain possible offers for our coveted players like Perez.However we're still only 2ish games back of the second Wildcard.

Sorry to rain on your Olympics but we're 4 games back in the wildcard. Angels sit alone at the top, then there are six teams between us and that second spot. Unless we get a sudden surge of wins it doesn't look hopeful this year. Again.

Just checked the Tribe site for 9th inning results between Pestano and Perez. WHIP for Pestano is .53; Perez 1.01. ERA is in Pestano's favor too: 1.50 vs 2.15. Of course the inning difference is there too: 5.2 vs 30.2. Compared a couple more categories and Pestano beats Perez practically every time. So I say to Chris Perez: Here's your coat - what's your hurry?" Hope the door doesn't hit him where the Good Lord split him...

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:But If they traded him now without getting any high impact guys, I would assume the real value would come from saving about 4.5 million dollars next year. Since they have so many in house candidates.

With the salary they will lose next year, I don't think his salary is that crucial. If they can't get back quality, there'd be no reason to deal Perez, in my mind.

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:But If they traded him now without getting any high impact guys, I would assume the real value would come from saving about 4.5 million dollars next year. Since they have so many in house candidates.

With the salary they will lose next year, I don't think his salary is that crucial. If they can't get back quality, there would be no reason to deal Perez, in my mind.

I'm not saying TO deal him for salary relief, I wouldn't ATM. I'm saying if they did and didn't receive any quality players then that would be the motivation, I would assume.

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Trading for Perez wouldn't be the same as trading for Beltran though - you'd get two extra years of control for Perez.

We match up well with the Giants if they'd deal Brandon Belt. I've no idea if they would though.

It would be like a rental because their real closer Brian Wilson would be back next year. So Perez would go to middle relief.

As for Belt, I don't think there is a snowballs chance. Same with Gary Brown, These are two guys the Giants have been in love with, if they all of a sudden changed their tune I would be a little concerned. Plus both have been trending the wrong way.

dazindiansfanuk wrote:I agree he would have less value next year for the Giants (assuming Wilson gets back to 100%), but he'll still maintain his market value.

I agree, but the question is what is his market value? He is a fringe closer who will make 7.5 million. Im not sure a lot of teams see him as a closer or a closer they want to attach their wagon too. It would be risky move for the Giants to trade top players for a guy thinking they can flip him later.

dazindiansfanuk wrote:I agree he would have less value next year for the Giants (assuming Wilson gets back to 100%), but he'll still maintain his market value.

I agree, but the question is what is his market value? He is a fringe closer who will make 7.5 million. Im not sure a lot of teams see him as a closer or a closer they want to attach their wagon too. It would be risky move for the Giants to trade top players for a guy thinking they can flip him later.

If we're going to deal Perez (and I am in agreement), should we attempt to sign Pestano to a 3-4 year deal? If Perez is going to cost $7 mil in arby next year, Pestano could perform just as well (presumably, hopefully, based on some basic stats and K's). I guess I want to nip this closer thing in the butt and hopefully risk 4 years guaranteed on a RP and hope to avoid $7 mil in arby for Pestano down the road.

With money coming off the books next year, as well as a bunch of org filler guys like Damon and Duncan...hopefully Perez and Kotchmann/Hannahan can bring a few pieces back. Which should, at least, force the org to finally call up minor league replacements for these guys, as well as force them to move guys accordingly to accomodate the new acquisitions, aka even more call ups.

With the offseason we had, it seemed almost inevitable that we would repeat last year. Sure enough, history repeats itself. A strong start, injuries and inconsistency. But, we don't have the chips for another "Ubaldo" deal this year. Gotta go for broke next year, even though a I said that last year after the Ubaldo deal. The 3 year window is halfway over, and more like 2/3rds if you expect them to sell...which we all do.

Perez would be the top reliever on the market by a VERY wide margin. Frankly, Joe Smith might be the second-best, depending on how hard the Rockies are shopping Belisle and Betancourt.

Teams desperate for bullpen help would ante up for him. I'm on board with at least finding out his value.

Same with Choo.

And if anybody wants to take Damon, Kotchman, Duncan, Sipp, Hannahan, Lopez, or Lowe, they can have them. Not that we'd get anything great in return. Then again, we got McAllister for Kearns and that's been a win, even if McAllister never pitches another MLB game.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

First let me say I'm well aware that Perez could be the next Bob Wickman. A guy who doesn't neccessarily wow you or has "the stuff" but gets the job done and is one of the most underrated players to put on a Cleveland uniform. IMO though he is more Kevin Gregg than Bob Wickman and its only a matter of time.

Perez plays a position that is notoriously known for high injury, inconsistency, and high turnover.He is a guy where the wheels could fall of at any given time and when they do the elite closers who have better stuff can sometimes get by. Perez doesn't have the stuff of the top closers, he has the intestinal fortitude though.

He is a guy where there always seems to be something sticking out about him that hints that something could go wrong. Last year it was a ridiculously low K rate with low velocity which had a lot of baseball people and people on this board questioning him. The Idea I have always heard on this board was to try to sell high on him before the wheels fall off.

This year he has a ridiculously low walk rate. He has only walked 7 batters. No way he keeps that up. Which would mean all of his other numbers would rise because he has given up 30 hits in 36 innings.(I know that a few of those hits could have been walks but he probably challenged the hitter).

He is never on any of the top closer lists on any site by any expert real or fantasy. And last offseason when a huge amount of teams needed closers nobody stepped up to get him nor was there a lot of percieved interest. If he was so elite then there would have been more of a clamoring for him.

Even after all that though, I know for most people on judging Perez it will be results and the eye test. To me he has the results but he doesnt pass my eye test, I think what he is doing is a mirage, IMO I have more confidence in Pestano, he passes my eye test. I don't think his results are a mirage.

I think we all know Perez is a solid reliever but he has a higher bust factor than most closers which knocks him out of that top tier.

95 MPH, a lights out slider, and very good control is hardly fringe stuff or fails to pass any test I can apply.

People don't ask because the Cleveland Indians would have to be either:

A) asking a very steep priceB) idiotsC) Both

To compare him to Bob Wickman is laughable. Just like assuming Vinny can handle the 9th inning role based on his 8th inning work. I would be 1000% more unsettled about the bullpen without Chris Perez in it. If Vince handles it, great, as long as you have someone you know will handle his role in the 8th. But you basically go from zero question marks at the back end to 2.

If someone wants to give me a premier corner OF that hits RH, I would listen. If it is another backup catcher or slap hitting lefty, no flipping way.

First let me say I'm well aware that Perez could be the next Bob Wickman. A guy who doesn't neccessarily wow you or has "the stuff" but gets the job done and is one of the most underrated players to put on a Cleveland uniform. IMO though he is more Kevin Gregg than Bob Wickman and its only a matter of time.

The thing about Perez is that he just turned 27. Clearly his velocity has returned from last year. Is it possible that he's simply becoming a better pitcher as he gets older rather than what he's experiencing this year as being a statistical anomaly?

He's fat and needs a shave and a haircut, but his 'stuff' looks legit this year, based on the games I've seen him pitch.

His stuff looks legit THIS YEAR, it didnt the last two, at least not this good. IMO I just have a hard believing in a guy who has so many statistical ups and downs at such a delicate position. How many times have we seen closers who have lights outs seasons then fall off a cliff?

He is 27 and maybe he has gotten better to a point where this isn't a mirage, but he hasn't had this type of stuff until this year. So I'm skeptical, and until he does this on a consistent basis, and proves he is a legit closer and his stuff has developed, then he is on the fringe side as far as closers go. Its really the nature of the position.

I'm also not advocating trading him for a backup catcher. But IMO his value is at its highest, and I feel he isn't as good as he is pitching currently, so if they can get impact pieces go for it, but honestly I don't think they can because I don't think other teams see him as being as good as he has pitched.

My comparison to Wickman comes from that the last 3 years his velocity was down and he always seemed to pick up saves with traffic on the bases. He wasn't just dominating people and didn't have this uptick in velocity. His whip has seesawed although not as bad as wickman's, but if he stayed a two pitch pitcher without low velocity, I feared his whip would go up with an uptick in velocity.

Last edited by Dnthateonthepronk on Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

CleSportsTruth wrote:On Choo, here's the question: Can the Indians reasonably contend next year? If not, then, :sigh:, trade him now. If you can contend, keep him.

I am at Browns-level pissed off at the Tribe right now. Can the Indians reasonably contend next year? Reasonably? Nothing about this team the past year and a half has been reasonable. Right now they're in the 100% exact same rut they were in last year at this same point in the season. Starting pitching is just incredibly inconsistent. Lowe? I think Lowe's just completely done, as he's following suit from what happened w/him last season. Stick a fork in him, and pray Fauxsto's got something in his tank and is ready to go.We've got Choo, Cabrera, Santana, Brantley, and Kipnis (among other less talented bats). All guys that have shown their chops at different points in time, and are simultaneously producing nothing right now. Fucking. Nothing. 3 runs last night and we're lucky enough to get the W and avoid the sweep. My biggest disappointment comes at the hands of Santana, batting about .230 after signing for 20 mil.Essentially, my main beef is that just like countless other Cleveland teams, they are not playing to their potential right now, and that's a tough thing to put your finger on and just fix via trade.I will end this rant by saying definitely get rid of Perez. We've got some guys that can fill his role, and dude just doesn't want to be here IMO. Sell. High.

I think the Indians need to be seen in a new light by the organization and the city.

The Cleveland Indians are NOT going to win a World Series. Accept it. Let it sink in. If it were to happen it would be the result of serendipity, an extremely lucky run, lightening captured in a bottle... and not the result of deliberate action by the front office.

In that light, what is the purpose of this team? Its not to provide that ultimate gratification for a fan base of a championship season. Rather its to provide ENTERTAINMENT on a day to day basis. The games should be fun to watch on average.

To trade a player now that is fun to watch with the hopes of getting players in return to help you win the World Series is a folly. Trading a player that is reaching his prime and is fun to watch for prospects who will only be traded as they become fun to watch is nonsense. Its not giving the one thing to the fan base that can be given, a reasonably fun game to watch on a nightly basis.

There is no sense in trading away a .500 team in order to get back a .500 team years later. They are not going to trade their way into a World Series. Maybe contention, but not ultimate victory. And more playoff losses don't do anything for this fan base.

The Indians should be sellers not when they feel they can't win the World Series, but only when they feel they can't reasonably entertain their fans. When they are a miserable sub .400 team.

Even as bad as they've played, they still have a 50/50 chance of winning a ball game on any given night, sometimes dramatically. Why trade that away? It is the only realistic goal this city and organization should have for the club.

Commodore Perry wrote:I think the Indians need to be seen in a new light by the organization and the city.

The Cleveland Indians are NOT going to win a World Series. Accept it. Let it sink in. If it were to happen it would be the result of serendipity, an extremely lucky run, lightening captured in a bottle... and not the result of deliberate action by the front office.

In that light, what is the purpose of this team? Its not to provide that ultimate gratification for a fan base of a championship season. Rather its to provide ENTERTAINMENT on a day to day basis. The games should be fun to watch on average.

To trade a player now that is fun to watch with the hopes of getting players in return to help you win the World Series is a folly. Trading a player that is reaching his prime and is fun to watch for prospects who will only be traded as they become fun to watch is nonsense. Its not giving the one thing to the fan base that can be given, a reasonably fun game to watch on a nightly basis.

Even as bad as they've played, they still have a 50/50 chance of winning a ball game on any given night, sometimes dramatically. Why trade that away? It is the only realistic goal this city and organization should have for the club.

Thing is, there's nothing entertaining if you're one of the people that go to a good number of games/watch every game they're not at on TV. Shit's becoming unwatchable/intolerable.

I have tickets for the game tomorrow. I had tickets for Lowe's last start on Friday. What motivation do I have to see Lowe start against an even better team? The damn tickets feel like fuckin handcuffs cuz I can't find anybody that wants em.