Well done Jenson, shame about the penalty. Hamilton was struggling out there, 1.1 off Jenson's time. He chose the wrong set up. Kind of puts things in perspective doesn't it? What a wrong set up can do. No one here believes that Lewis is 1.1 slower than Jenson.

I'm sure you'd have been posting lovely happy posts if he hadn't put that banker in and then went out for his one run on new softs and got stuffed by the yellows...

Given that he is currently starting ninth and with one lap on new tyres (even with yellows) at the end the worst he could have started was...ninth, I think I might have felt marginally better. Easy to say with hindsight I know and it worked the opposite way in Monaco 2011. The difference is he had no pace here meaning any banker lap on used tyres was likely to be good for nothing more than dead last of the Q3 runners.

Well done Jenson, shame about the penalty. Hamilton was struggling out there, 1.1 off Jenson's time. He chose the wrong set up. Kind of puts things in perspective doesn't it? What a wrong set up can do. No one here believes that Lewis is 1.1 slower than Jenson.

I do!

Just wait'll you see him trying to punt that Merc pile of next season.If he gets within that margin of JB he'll be doing well.

I would if Mclaren also get the WCC. It would also count of Mclaren records of winning the WDC this year... I doubt they will win this now. Red Bull seems to be flying.

Pretty much. They have the possibility of either:

Hamilton wins the WDC, McLaren get the title and they lose the number 1 to Mercedes, having to make do with other numbers.orHamilton doesn't win and McLaren have to make do with other numbers.orButton wins the WDC and McLaren get to keep the number one

He did say there was a late set up change that did not pay off ... so (pending further info) I would give Macca the benefit of the doubt today.

But anybody who dismisses what you say as "just not the way it works" is naive...

Mclaren are a business and Lewis is no longer part of that business plan.....who knows how cut-throat life really is behind the scenes but i definatley believe that its possible to shift allegiance within the team from one driver to another....i dont think thay care that much for Hamilton now so if they saw a chance to help him progress today it wouldnt surprise me if the chose not to....would you?

A pity for Lewis although isn't it curious how he will take responsibility when he performs poorly but with Button it's always the car or somebody else's fault..... At least he'll have another ready made if Hamilton finishes ahead him tomorrow

A pity for Lewis although isn't it curious how he will take responsibility when he performs poorly but with Button it's always the car or somebody else's fault..... At least he'll have another ready made if Hamilton finishes ahead him tomorrow

Indeed. He even takes time to post pictures of telemetry on his twitter to show the error of his way while Button is car-or-somebody-else-blaming.

You really love to stir up stuff by writing the same thing about the telemetry. It happened in spa get over it. Really boring to be honest.

Oh I'm over it, thank you for your concern. I found it simply ironic how Button always blames the car and Lewis apparently takes responsibility for himself. Funny you thoroughly failed to read the post I was responding to.

Mclaren are a business and Lewis is no longer part of that business plan.....who knows how cut-throat life really is behind the scenes but i definatley believe that its possible to shift allegiance within the team from one driver to another....i dont think thay care that much for Hamilton now so if they saw a chance to help him progress today it wouldnt surprise me if the chose not to....would you?

Another basic F1 Lesson required for another Lewis Hamilton fan.

There are 2 world championships, did you know? One for drivers, one for teams. To the teams, the constructors championship is very improtant. Once the drivers championship is gone, the team does not just give up, especially if they are in a fight for the Constructors Title. OK, so now you have learnt that, consider again the sheer stupidity of your comments today. In fact, sheer stupidity doesnt even come close to describing just how completely detached from reality your comments are.

Theres still a constructors WDC to fight for, McLaren NEED that badly. With the Button penalty, McLaren needed Hamilton to do well today. Comments such as yours saying McLaren will have slowed Lewis are so badly thought out, its just incredible. How can anyone actually think that? Even the most ardent of McLaren haters wouldnt be so stupid as to think that.

Shows an epic lack of understanding about F1 and how it works, or an epic level of fanboyisim in that you cant accpet Lewis was not great today and Jensons was just better. Your views deserve nothing but ridicule from everyone here.

As for the title bid and Hamilton, I said days ago it was over. Lewis is not in a title fight. Even if he can overhaul Alonso, I cant see him managing the same feat where Vettel is concerned - especially after qually today.

Oh I'm over it, thank you for your concern. I found it simply ironic how Button always blames the car and Lewis apparently takes responsibility for himself. Funny you thoroughly failed to read the post I was responding to.

I actually did read the post before.... why do you lower yourself to response to other people posts.... It's tiresome to read constant bashing from both sides. I just want the team do well.

Haha, there are six more races to go. I'm sure you can stomach it for the of this season. I'm definitely going to miss Lewis but not this thread.

Yeah, my prediction is that fun times in this thread are going to go on for a little longer... Perhaps even all the way up to March. Also the uncanny way this thread manages to surprise you with the depth of human... shall we say... eccentricity... in almost every single day is something to behold.

Yeah, my prediction is that fun times in this thread are going to go on for a little longer... Perhaps even all the way up to March. Also the uncanny way this thread manages to surprise you with the depth of human... shall we say... eccentricity... in almost every single day is something to behold.

Haha well that's quite possible especially during the 2013 season. I might be reading what Lewis could be doing if Button slightly struggles if he was in the MP4-28 car. Or vice versa if Button wins races next season and Hamilton struggles. I can't win.... Two world class drivers and we are fighting who's better. I just hope both do well and the thread could be a bit more friendly (Not Likely though). Something will be picked up...

why couldn't he decide on teams after the season was over especially when he had such a good chance at it

xix are leading him into a shot hole

I'm not convinced deciding to go to mercedes caused macca to cock up his pit stops or under fuel him earlier in the season or sabotage his gearbox in singapore and china nor did it make him and his engineers cock up set up in spa and here or decide to dice with maldo in valencia.

Lastly pretty sure it didn't cause massa (?) to have contact and leave a bit of debris on track especially for Lewis's tyre in germany nor the 2 or 3 race slump for macca around silverstone time.

I'm not convinced deciding to go to mercedes caused macca to cock up his pit stops or under fuel him earlier in the season or sabotage his gearbox in singapore and china nor did it make him and his engineers cock up set up in spa and here or decide to dice with maldo in valencia.

Lastly pretty sure it didn't cause massa (?) to have contact and leave a bit of debris on track especially for Lewis's tyre in germany nor the 2 or 3 race slump for macca around silverstone time.

I wonder how much ego played into the setup mistake Lewis made in qualifying. Suzuka, like Spa, is a track where Button is just as quick (and sometime quicker) as Lewis for whatever reason. So maybe (just maybe) when he looks at the data he gets frustrated that he's not the fastest McLaren driver for that track and is more willing to gamble on setup (or at least do something different than Jenson)? If so it's a bit silly because he's the quicker driver (in Q especially) at a strong majority of the track on the calendar.

There are 2 world championships, did you know? One for drivers, one for teams. To the teams, the constructors championship is very improtant. Once the drivers championship is gone, the team does not just give up, especially if they are in a fight for the Constructors Title. OK, so now you have learnt that, consider again the sheer stupidity of your comments today. In fact, sheer stupidity doesnt even come close to describing just how completely detached from reality your comments are.

Theres still a constructors WDC to fight for, McLaren NEED that badly. With the Button penalty, McLaren needed Hamilton to do well today. Comments such as yours saying McLaren will have slowed Lewis are so badly thought out, its just incredible. How can anyone actually think that? Even the most ardent of McLaren haters wouldnt be so stupid as to think that.

Shows an epic lack of understanding about F1 and how it works, or an epic level of fanboyisim in that you cant accpet Lewis was not great today and Jensons was just better. Your views deserve nothing but ridicule from everyone here.

As for the title bid and Hamilton, I said days ago it was over. Lewis is not in a title fight. Even if he can overhaul Alonso, I cant see him managing the same feat where Vettel is concerned - especially after qually today.

Real shame for JB, but thats the way the sport goes.

McLaren WCC bid isnt going to come out of this weekend well:(

I agree with your entire argument about McLaren continuing to support Lewis (and Jenson). As an Alonso supporter, I fear he is very catchable by both Seb (could even happen tomorrow) and Lewis. His results are dropping off too much, and Vettel and Hamilton will be able to win races through to the end of the year.

I too think Seb is Lewis's greatest obstacle to achieving the 2012 WDC. However, the points gap between Seb and Lewis is only 23 points with six races to go. I don't think that can be called impossible.

I wonder how much ego played into the setup mistake Lewis made in qualifying. Suzuka, like Spa, is a track where Button is just as quick (and sometime quicker) as Lewis for whatever reason. So maybe (just maybe) when he looks at the data he gets frustrated that he's not the fastest McLaren driver for that track and is more willing to gamble on setup (or at least do something different than Jenson)? If so it's a bit silly because he's the quicker driver (in Q especially) at a strong majority of the track on the calendar.

edit: closed parenthesis

As far as I'm aware they were both unhappy with the car on Friday, particularly with understeer, and wanted to make changes.

The thing that seems to have hurt lewis is not so much going the wrong route in FP3 and having to reverse it but that they made some other changes rather than just going back to the FP2 set up.

Personally, as per as65p's post, I think there's a bit of working backwards from the conclusion rather than looking at what's happend and going from there.

As far as I'm aware they were both unhappy with the car on Friday, particularly with understeer, and wanted to make changes.

The thing that seems to have hurt lewis is not so much going the wrong route in FP3 and having to reverse it but that they made some other changes rather than just going back to the FP2 set up.

Personally, as per as65p's post, I think there's a bit of working backwards from the conclusion rather than looking at what's happend and going from there.

I just wonder how it affects his decision making is all. Clearly he can be upset when beaten by his teammate so on some level (maybe not consciously) something drives him to make decisions slightly differently than he normally would.

As far as I'm aware they were both unhappy with the car on Friday, particularly with understeer, and wanted to make changes.

The thing that seems to have hurt lewis is not so much going the wrong route in FP3 and having to reverse it but that they made some other changes rather than just going back to the FP2 set up.

Personally, as per as65p's post, I think there's a bit of working backwards from the conclusion rather than looking at what's happend and going from there.

Well, apparently Jenson was more or less okay with his FP1 car, then went wrong way about it in FP2, didn't have time to set it right during that time, but (this is the important part) KNEW where and how did he go wrong and righted the ship in FP3 again.

I just wonder how it affects his decision making is all. Clearly he can be upset when beaten by his teammate so on some level (maybe not consciously) something drives him to make decisions slightly differently than he normally would.

I suspect his engineers would steer him away from anything too rash. It's an interesting theory but I don't see much evidence of it...for instance him being unhappy in Spa doesn't seem to have had an effect on his/the team's decision, he was upset when he was much slower than button post his decision not before.

Well, apparently Jenson was more or less okay with his FP1 car, then went wrong way about it in FP2, didn't have time to set it right during that time, but (this is the important part) KNEW where and how did he go wrong and righted the ship in FP3 again.

I've no problem with you giving jenson all the credit for getting a good set up here rather than the engineers but it doesn't paint him in a very good light for his slump this year or his constant complaints about being unable to find balance throughout his career ;)

More seriously, it's clear jenson and his engineers found a decent set up and lewis and his engineers didn't, that wasn't a point of contention in my post nor Tkulla's.

There are 2 world championships, did you know? One for drivers, one for teams. To the teams, the constructors championship is very improtant. Once the drivers championship is gone, the team does not just give up, especially if they are in a fight for the Constructors Title. OK, so now you have learnt that, consider again the sheer stupidity of your comments today. In fact, sheer stupidity doesnt even come close to describing just how completely detached from reality your comments are.

Theres still a constructors WDC to fight for, McLaren NEED that badly. With the Button penalty, McLaren needed Hamilton to do well today. Comments such as yours saying McLaren will have slowed Lewis are so badly thought out, its just incredible. How can anyone actually think that? Even the most ardent of McLaren haters wouldnt be so stupid as to think that.

Shows an epic lack of understanding about F1 and how it works, or an epic level of fanboyisim in that you cant accpet Lewis was not great today and Jensons was just better. Your views deserve nothing but ridicule from everyone here.

As for the title bid and Hamilton, I said days ago it was over. Lewis is not in a title fight. Even if he can overhaul Alonso, I cant see him managing the same feat where Vettel is concerned - especially after qually today.

Real shame for JB, but thats the way the sport goes.

McLaren WCC bid isnt going to come out of this weekend well:(

so teams have never favoured certain drivers in the history of f1? i dont think the situation has been that good at mclaren for a long time and its obvious from the body language of everyone involved....like i said Button is not that far behind Hamilton now so i dont think its beyond all realms of possibilty to shift him ahead come the end of the season so that they can have the opportunity to keep the current world champion at mclaren next year cos both drivers pretty much have the same odds of winning the title this year now.Ham was 1 second off Button today even after 3 dry practice sessions to dial the car in and i just dont buy it...i hear everything you said in your comment cos its basically just commen sense to grab as many points as you can for the team but its also common sense for a team to want a current world champion driving for them next year too.

I've no problem with you giving jenson all the credit for getting a good set up here rather than the engineers but it doesn't paint him in a very good light for his slump this year or his constant complaints about being unable to find balance throughout his career ;)

Yeah, well, certain parts of the season were not his finest hour, I concur. I simply find it accept that these parts of the season were the true measure of a man, as many here like to point out from time to time.

so teams have never favoured certain drivers in the history of f1? i dont think the situation has been that good at mclaren for a long time and its obvious from the body language of everyone involved....like i said Button is not that far behind Hamilton now so i dont think its beyond all realms of possibilty to shift him ahead come the end of the season so that they can have the opportunity to keep the current world champion at mclaren next year cos both drivers pretty much have the same odds of winning the title this year now.Ham was 1 second off Button today even after 3 dry practice sessions to dial the car in and i just dont buy it...i hear everything you said in your comment cos its basically just commen sense to grab as many points as you can for the team but its also common sense for a team to want a current world champion driving for them next year too.

This is not true in my opinion.

If Seb ends up being their strongest competitor, then Lewis is 23 points behind and Jenson is 46 points behind. The gaps to Alonso are LH 52 points behind, JB 75 points behind.I would say JB is pretty much out of it either way, but IMO the same cannot be said for Lewis. He is not favourite, don't get me wrong, but he could still nick it if things went his way.

To believe that McLaren would not try to help Lewis win the WDC implies that they prefer Alonso or Vettel to win it, in which case another team gets the number 1 anyway. For McLaren, a WDC with Hamilton is good for their statistics, their reputation, their balance sheet, their sponsors etc etc.

The WCC is also very good financially (even to get 2nd rather than 3rd or 4th would be very worthwhile, and the standings are quite tight at the moment).

Therefore, the idea that McLaren would sabotage Lewis for the rest of the year is ludicrous.

If Seb ends up being their strongest competitor, then Lewis is 23 points behind and Jenson is 46 points behind. The gaps to Alonso are LH 52 points behind, JB 75 points behind.I would say JB is pretty much out of it either way, but IMO the same cannot be said for Lewis. He is not favourite, don't get me wrong, but he could still nick it if things went his way.

To believe that McLaren would not try to help Lewis win the WDC implies that they prefer Alonso or Vettel to win it, in which case another team gets the number 1 anyway. For McLaren, a WDC with Hamilton is good for their statistics, their reputation, their balance sheet, their sponsors etc etc.

The WCC is also very good financially (even to get 2nd rather than 3rd or 4th would be very worthwhile, and the standings are quite tight at the moment).

Therefore, the idea that McLaren would sabotage Lewis for the rest of the year is ludicrous.

i hear you the same as i hear the other guy who thinks its just totally unthinkable for a modern f1 team to want to favour one driver over the other instead of collecting as many points as they can in pursuit of the constructors title but again im just not buying this sudden so called clumsy dip in form from Hamilton after how excellent and on it he has looked recently and why now after he has signed for mercedes?....the way i see it is that if they saw an opportunity to help Lewis and move him ahead of Button today they did not take it and they figure from where his is now he will still collect a decent amount of points behind Button.Non of us really know how deep f1 politics and favouritsm can run behind the scenes at any f1 team so to totally rule this line of thought out as ridiculas is just as ridiculas in itself.

i hear you the same as i hear the other guy who thinks its just totally unthinkable for a modern f1 team to want to favour one driver over the other instead of collecting as many points as they can in pursuit of the constructors title but again im just not buying this sudden so called clumsy dip in form from Hamilton after how excellent and on it he has looked recently and why now after he has signed for mercedes?....the way i see it is that if they saw an opportunity to help Lewis and move him ahead of Button today they did not take it and they figure from where his is now he will still collect a decent amount of points behind Button.Non of us really know how deep f1 politics and favouritsm can run behind the scenes at any f1 team so to totally rule this line of thought out as ridiculas is just as ridiculas in itself.

If Button could realistically still win the WDC, I would be as suspicious as the next guy. And it is not that I trust McLaren or think that they have superior ethics. A world championship for Lewis would be very valuable to McLaren, both now and for years to come. Currently, it is four years since they won the WDC and they have only won one this century. They need it.

However, I don't think they would go as far as to ask Jenson to give up a win at this stage (a combination of Lewis being too much of a long shot and wanting to keep a good relationship with Jenson).

i hear you the same as i hear the other guy who thinks its just totally unthinkable for a modern f1 team to want to favour one driver over the other instead of collecting as many points as they can in pursuit of the constructors title but again im just not buying this sudden so called clumsy dip in form from Hamilton after how excellent and on it he has looked recently and why now after he has signed for mercedes?....the way i see it is that if they saw an opportunity to help Lewis and move him ahead of Button today they did not take it and they figure from where his is now he will still collect a decent amount of points behind Button.Non of us really know how deep f1 politics and favouritsm can run behind the scenes at any f1 team so to totally rule this line of thought out as ridiculas is just as ridiculas in itself.

What dip, this the second Q this year Lewis has not got the setup right hardly a dip

If Button could realistically still win the WDC, I would be as suspicious as the next guy. And it is not that I trust McLaren or think that they have superior ethics. A world championship for Lewis would be very valuable to McLaren, both now and for years to come. Currently, it is four years since they won the WDC and they have only won one this century. They need it.

However, I don't think they would go as far as to ask Jenson to give up a win at this stage (a combination of Lewis being too much of a long shot and wanting to keep a good relationship with Jenson).

we'll see ow the next 6 races go...if Hamilton gets back on track with his qualifying performance in the next race and the 2 of their performances are similar relative to how they have been this season (including Buttons increase in form cos he has improved lately so they are pretty similar in race pace now) then i will change my stance and admit today was just a blip from Hamiltons side of the garage.

To believe that McLaren would not try to help Lewis win the WDC implies that they prefer Alonso or Vettel to win it, in which case another team gets the number 1 anyway. For McLaren, a WDC with Hamilton is good for their statistics, their reputation, their balance sheet, their sponsors etc etc.

The WCC is also very good financially (even to get 2nd rather than 3rd or 4th would be very worthwhile, and the standings are quite tight at the moment).

Therefore, the idea that McLaren would sabotage Lewis for the rest of the year is ludicrous.

Whether a team has a number one on the car next year or not is irrelevant, the only way McLaren could do that would be to get Button to win and that isn't going to happen unless Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonnen, Webber and Hamilton all get injured and can't finish the season. If Hamilton wins it goes in the books as a McLaren win as well and McLaren can claim to be championship winners. McLaren has nothing to gain by preventing Hamilton score as many points as he possibly can, or even winning the championship. All the points helps the constructors championship as well. If some believe McLaren have some sort of grudge and want to prevent Hamilton doing well, McLaren could just replace him with Paffett and get him to support Button, but that's never going to happen because every point Hamilton scores for McLaren earns McLaren more money from FOM next year.

It's not as if Hamilton has never been beaten fair and square by Button in qualifying, no matter what numbers you pluck out of the air to try and prove Hamilton was actually faster whenever he was beaten. I know for some it's hard to understand, especially as when Button qualifies a second behind instead of his usual 0.2-0.4s is supposed to demonstrate just how much faster Hamilton really is and how slow Button really is, and nothing to do with Hamilton and his engineers doing a much better job of car setup. Now it's the other way round it can't be down to Button and his side of the garage doing a better job on a track that Button has always gone well at so shouldn't be too much of a surprise. No, it has to be because McLaren would rather throw away millions of dollars from the FOM prize fund by deliberately sabotaging Hamiltons setup than having Hamilton do as well as he can.

Here's a thought, what if it's Hamilton driving slower, to sabotage McLaren in the constructors championship? It's about as believable as McLaren sabotaging Hamilton.

Whether a team has a number one on the car next year or not is irrelevant, the only way McLaren could do that would be to get Button to win and that isn't going to happen unless Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonnen, Webber and Hamilton all get injured and can't finish the season. If Hamilton wins it goes in the books as a McLaren win as well and McLaren can claim to be championship winners. McLaren has nothing to gain by preventing Hamilton score as many points as he possibly can, or even winning the championship. All the points helps the constructors championship as well. If some believe McLaren have some sort of grudge and want to prevent Hamilton doing well, McLaren could just replace him with Paffett and get him to support Button, but that's never going to happen because every point Hamilton scores for McLaren earns McLaren more money from FOM next year.

It's not as if Hamilton has never been beaten fair and square by Button in qualifying, no matter what numbers you pluck out of the air to try and prove Hamilton was actually faster whenever he was beaten. I know for some it's hard to understand, especially as when Button qualifies a second behind instead of his usual 0.2-0.4s is supposed to demonstrate just how much faster Hamilton really is and how slow Button really is, and nothing to do with Hamilton and his engineers doing a much better job of car setup. Now it's the other way round it can't be down to Button and his side of the garage doing a better job on a track that Button has always gone well at so shouldn't be too much of a surprise. No, it has to be because McLaren would rather throw away millions of dollars from the FOM prize fund by deliberately sabotaging Hamiltons setup than having Hamilton do as well as he can.

Here's a thought, what if it's Hamilton driving slower, to sabotage McLaren in the constructors championship? It's about as believable as McLaren sabotaging Hamilton.

lol whatever dude..ive put my argument forward and its based on my own belief that an f1 team would be ok with pushing one driver in front of the other even if the chances are slim that he could get the world championship.....i just feel like the romance between Lewis and mclaren is over now and before he signed with mercedes they were willing to put up with his faults(which i even admit he aint the most likable character.....but for me its about racing abiltiy on the track and i simply dont care that much about a drivers personality.....Hamilton is not my kinda guy either but god is he exciting to watch). Its over now and if anything i feel that mclaren probbaly has a little resentment towards Lewis for finally breaking free.

im a big lewis fan and i dont buy all this mclaren stitching him up on purpose crap anymore than i think lewis is stealing data for mecedes ,
he and his side of garage made a mistake in set up its not suspicious at all just one of those things .
i still think he will score points , but the slim chance he had of wdc has now gone .

that just means that the range of his driving skills is not really that impressive....last year the regs suited him well and most other drivers learnt from his example and brought his kind of approach into this season adapting and taking it further where Button just stood still and become lost for a long period earlier in the season.