actiongrl wrote:The services and cost of running Burning Man definitely do not stay the same. Compare the afterburn reports for some of the complexities. This thing gets more involved and evolved every year, and as awareness has increased, the workload has increased enormously. And supplies, materials, labor etc. are not fixed costs, they are subject to inflation as well.

As I said, inflation is zero and 99% of all BM labor is free. All service providers are dropping their prices just so they have work. Ask any carpenter. Nevada has one of the highest unemployment rates in the states. Yes the total dollars of cost might increase but so does the number of tickets sold so they cancel each other out. The average cost per person does not increase. Stop drinking the Kool Aid. There is a reason the financials of BM are kept top secret to preserve the myth. Face it, we are all puppets of Mr Harvey, aka Gordon Gekko.

According to the grossly manipulated official CPI # as of last week is 3.5%. Calculated using pre-Clinto methodology by the BLS its closer to 7%.

Ok, here are the facts Kool Aid guzzlers -- the highest tiered ticket price in 2010 was $300 (see BM website). The highest tiered and with the greatest quantity of tickets this year is $390. That represents and increase of 30%, inflation has been 3.5 % per year for the last two years so lets just call it 8% in total. What does the other 22% increase represent? You bunch of suck-ups, it represents unbridled profits. Don't even get me started on the economies of scale and how once you get past 40,000 people how the dollars free fall to the bottom line. Like I said, I'll be there but I'll be there knowing it is a for profit event and wondering with amazement how the BMORG gets all the volunteers to work so hard. Those are the facts -- bitches.

"Kool Aid" is an automatic fail.Sheeple is too. I didn't read far enough to see if you'd use it.And I found that today I don't like the word "lame."

Is your goal to have a fight on the internet, because those two terms are perfect for that, or do you actually want to have a chance of swaying someone's mind. Won't be me, mind, you've joined the happy world of the plonked.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

@LittleJack - yes, you and your spouse can register from the same household address. Different names and different credit cards are fine, if something came up that the machine considered suspicious it would be reviewed by a human.

@jkisha - apologies, I don't think I answered this properly before. You asked if it was possible that if you requested 2 tix and were willing to pay Tier 3, could you get two tickets at different prices? Yes, that's a possibility. If you happened to be drawn at the tail end of a round for a pricing tier and there were not 2 tickets available, only one would be fulfilled. Hopefully the second ticket would be awarded in the next round.

@ericthomasdavis - if you sign up for Tier 3 in the Main Sale, you would have 10,000 chances for tickets at Tier 1 pricing ($240), 15,000 chances for tickets at Tier 2 pricing($320), and 15,000 chances for tickets at Tier 3 pricing ($390).

@lemur - Burning Man is cheaper than most amusement parks, but I have yet to find funnel cake camp

@Harinama - potential issue in that in 2011 more than half of the event tickets sold during the first 48 hours, even with a horrific server meltdown. While it's impossible to really accurately forecast demand in the crazy times we live in, there is a slight probablility that an unchecked, first-come first-serve sale could sell out in under 3 days. Scalpers love fc/fs, and they love events that sell out quickly

@Jewel Man - please keep it civil. ePlaya is a place with 30,000+ different members, and sometimes twice as many opinions. I have no doubts or illusions that the LLC operates as a for-profit operation, and I'm still okay with the 2012 event pricing. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.

Jewel Man wrote:Ok, here are the facts Kool Aid guzzlers -- the highest tiered ticket price in 2010 was $300 (see BM website). The highest tiered and with the greatest quantity of tickets this year is $390. That represents and increase of 30%, inflation has been 3.5 % per year for the last two years so lets just call it 8% in total. What does the other 22% increase represent? You bunch of suck-ups, it represents unbridled profits. Don't even get me started on the economies of scale and how once you get past 40,000 people how the dollars free fall to the bottom line. Like I said, I'll be there but I'll be there knowing it is a for profit event and wondering with amazement how the BMORG gets all the volunteers to work so hard. Those are the facts -- bitches.

Again, luckily we don't have to guess or go with your assumptions about economies of scale or anything else. Gross expenses are published every year. You can see for yourself what the difference is from year to year.

Now you can always make the claim that BMORG is one gigantic fraud, the numbers are fake, the LLC partnership agreement is doctored, and everything they have been publishing and stating regarding compensation, ownership, the golden parachute, etc. is all false. If so, I suggest you contact the Justice Department as it would constitute a fairly sizable case of fraud.

Wonderful doing business with you. You can kindly keep the insults to yourself.

Basically, people have 4 months from the last burn now to raise money to buy their ticket for the next burn. If you don't have the money in January, right after the holidays, then you're screwed and have to buy tickets at the highest price. So now I have to give my kids a choice: Christmas or Burning Man.

And actually it's not even 4 months. It's more like 2-1/2 to come up with an extra $640+/- in order to have the best chance at a ticket that doesn't cost just shy of $400.

I guess I have to face the reality that I may not be able to go. This system is especially punitive for people with kids over 13 who need a full price ticket.

I was really hoping for something a little more equitable. This does not feel equitable at all.

It was fun while it lasted.

Last edited by Clar-i-ty on Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Clar-i-ty wrote:I'm sorry BMOrg but this new system is still very upsetting.

Basically, people have 4 months from the last burn now to raise money to buy their ticket for the next burn. If you don't have the money in January, right after the holidays, then you're screwed and have to buy tickets at the highest price. So now I have to give my kids a choice: Christmas or Burning Man.

The event sold out this year. I think after that, people would know you can't wait until later in the year to purchase tickets.

If they kept it the same way, tickets may have sold out the first week. This method, if anything, seems to favor those who want or need to wait until later in the year.

alt12 wrote:It still leaves the question of if I opt for all 3 tiers are they going to run the lottery for tier 3 first and then tier 2 and then tier 1 or will it be tier 1 then tier 2 then tier 3. Obviously that would make a big difference. If they were trying to shake out the tier-3 people first then I probably won't even select tier 3 at all and take my chances with tier 2 or tier 1.

Again, more details would be helpful here to make an informed decision on such a radically different system.

This is my major question as well. The other possibility is that all three tiers be competed for "simultaneously". Depending on how they do this, your odds for getting tickets at a given tier will be very different based on which tier you choose as your highest possible, so it would be helpful to have this information upfront (and grab a statistician to help you.)

The other interesting thing is that if the system starts with a Tier 1 lottery and moves upward, they likely will not even have enough people left by Tier 3 to sell it out- but still plenty of people who don't get any ticket at all because they posted their highest willing ticket price at Tier 1 or 2, while many people who were willing to pay at Tier 3 got those tickets. This way seems to be most hostile to people who would benefit most from cheaper tickets, who historically knew that they wanted to go to the festival as early as January and got the lower prices first-come-first-serve.

The alternative, if all three tiers are simply "filled in" simultaneously, or filled from Tier 3 down, will mean that picking a higher tier that you're willing to pay will increase your chances of getting a ticket overall but vastly decrease your ability to get the cheaper ticket. This seems more fair somewhat, giving a better chance for people who can only pay for cheaper tickets to get those tickets, but it also encourages a weird sort of gambling.

Anyhow, I think the answer to this question would really help inform people of the smartest way to proceed, without a tricky tightrope walk between what you "could" pay and what you're hoping to pay.

Last edited by saxfunaftermath on Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Clar-i-ty wrote:I'm sorry BMOrg but this new system is still very upsetting.

Basically, people have 4 months from the last burn now to raise money to buy their ticket for the next burn. If you don't have the money in January, right after the holidays, then you're screwed and have to buy tickets at the highest price. So now I have to give my kids a choice: Christmas or Burning Man.

The event sold out this year. I think after that, people would know you can't wait until later in the year to purchase tickets.

If they kept it the same way, tickets may have sold out the first week. This method, if anything, seems to favor those who want or need to wait until later in the year.

I wait because I don't have that kind of disposable income at the moment. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna hustle like hell to get it, but there's a very good chance I won't be able to. It's an extra $75 a week I have to raise right now. Ah fuck it. If you're not living it I doubt you understand.

I'm not a freeloader, I work my ass off, I do as much as I can. This year that simply may not be enough.

Dang, seems as easy to give gifts at the Vernal Equinox, or some other vaguely random date. Of course, this year some token small things to tide over might be necessary. Or maybe you can make each other things...

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

theCryptofishist wrote:Dang, seems as easy to give gifts at the Vernal Equinox, or some other vaguely random date. Of course, this year some token small things to tide over might be necessary. Or maybe you can make each other things...

what still concerns me is what a few others echoed, about lower priced tickets going to those who would otherwise be ok with paying more. though i personally am not able to do so, there are many burners who are willing and able to pay for higher tiers. in the spirit of burning man, they pay as suggested - what they are able to, leaving the cheaper tickets available to those who are on tighter budgets. of course, because of supply and demand, these cheap tickets are far outnumbered by those who want them, but at least previously there was room for those generous, more financially able burners to pay as they saw fit.

by making it so that every registered buyer is automatically enrolled in all lotteries starting from tier one, there will be a large number of burners, willing and able to pay more, taking lower priced tickets from those who don't have as much flexibility. this to me seems pretty unfair.

i think a fair solution to this would be to have registered pre-sale buyers check off all price tiers they would be willing to pay.

Clar-i-ty wrote:I'm sorry BMOrg but this new system is still very upsetting.

Basically, people have 4 months from the last burn now to raise money to buy their ticket for the next burn. If you don't have the money in January, right after the holidays, then you're screwed and have to buy tickets at the highest price. So now I have to give my kids a choice: Christmas or Burning Man.

I wait because I don't have that kind of disposable income at the moment. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna hustle like hell to get it, but there's a very good chance I won't be able to. It's an extra $75 a week I have to raise right now. Ah fuck it. If you're not living it I doubt you understand.

I'm not a freeloader, I work my ass off, I do as much as I can. This year that simply may not be enough.

It saddens me to read stuff like this. Obviously this is a fucked up situation... just remember, not going to burning man is not the end of the world. You know what your priorities are... christmas, kids, BM, family, $75, life... whichever order suits you. I hope you have a great christmas!

The other interesting thing is that if the system starts with a Tier 1 lottery and moves upward, they likely will not even have enough people left by Tier 3 to sell it out- but still plenty of people who don't get any ticket at all because they posted their highest willing ticket price at Tier 1 or 2, while many people who were willing to pay at Tier 3 got those tickets. This way seems to be most hostile to people who would benefit most from cheaper tickets, who historically knew that they wanted to go to the festival as early as January and got the lower prices first-come-first-serve.

The alternative, if all three tiers are simply "filled in" simultaneously, or filled from Tier 3 down, will mean that picking a higher tier that you're willing to pay will increase your chances of getting a ticket overall but vastly decrease your ability to get the cheaper ticket. This seems more fair somewhat, giving a better chance for people who can only pay for cheaper tickets to get those tickets, but it also encourages a weird sort of gambling.

is the information that's been left out. Let us know, so we can plan appropriately, thanks.

Wow, now I know where to come when I need doses of whining, entitlement, and paranoia.

The prices went up. It sucks.

They changed the ticket system. Change sucks.

Some of the just-released details are slightly confusing. Confusion sucks.

There's a remote chance that if you don't try to get your tickets in December, you'll have to try in January, and then, if by some small chance you don't get in on a couple of those 40,000 tickets available, you'll have to try in March, when there's a remote chance that those will sell out before you buy yours, and then you'll only have the next five months to try to find someone or someone who knows someone who has extra tickets, which, jeez, never happens. Really sucks.

Oh, and the BMORG is money-grubbing, doesn't know what it's doing, doesn't care about the attendees, and produces an event which gets worse by the year. TOTALLY sucks.

Does that about cover all the sucking?

Good, now I can get back to planning for the (optional attendance) event which has fundamentally changed my existence, and continues to do so every year.

Davoid wrote:Wow, now I know where to come when I need doses of whining, entitlement, and paranoia.

The prices went up. It sucks.

They changed the ticket system. Change sucks.

Some of the just-released details are slightly confusing. Confusion sucks.

There's a remote chance that if you don't try to get your tickets in December, you'll have to try in January, and then, if by some small chance you don't get in on a couple of those 40,000 tickets available, you'll have to try in March, when there's a remote chance that those will sell out before you buy yours, and then you'll only have the next five months to try to find someone or someone who knows someone who has extra tickets, which, jeez, never happens. Really sucks.

Oh, and the BMORG is money-grubbing, doesn't know what it's doing, doesn't care about the attendees, and produces an event which gets worse by the year. TOTALLY sucks.

Does that about cover all the sucking?

Good, now I can get back to planning for the (optional attendance) event which has fundamentally changed my existence, and continues to do so every year.

Davoid wrote:Wow, now I know where to come when I need doses of whining, entitlement, and paranoia.

The prices went up. It sucks.

They changed the ticket system. Change sucks.

Some of the just-released details are slightly confusing. Confusion sucks.

There's a remote chance that if you don't try to get your tickets in December, you'll have to try in January, and then, if by some small chance you don't get in on a couple of those 40,000 tickets available, you'll have to try in March, when there's a remote chance that those will sell out before you buy yours, and then you'll only have the next five months to try to find someone or someone who knows someone who has extra tickets, which, jeez, never happens. Really sucks.

Oh, and the BMORG is money-grubbing, doesn't know what it's doing, doesn't care about the attendees, and produces an event which gets worse by the year. TOTALLY sucks.

Does that about cover all the sucking?

Good, now I can get back to planning for the (optional attendance) event which has fundamentally changed my existence, and continues to do so every year.

you forgot that burning man totally ruined christmas this year

Oh, not totally...The Grinch helped...

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

@Cla-ri-ty - on a first come, first served plan you face the same risk (if not greater). In 2011, more than half the tickets to the event were sold within 48 hours of the January 19 on-sale date (and that's with a massive server problem on the first day). After the sell-out in July, a significant number of people (those who got burned, had a close call, or knew someone who got burned or had a close call) started making plans to get tickets (or try and load up) early in 2012. Under the system that was used in 2011, you would just be left out.

@saxfunaftermath - If you select tier 1 you have 10,000 ticket opportunities, tier 2 has 25,000 opportunities, and there are 40,000 ticket opportunities for tier 3. You will be charged for the tier in which you were awarded tickets. Those with greater means have been choosing lower tier tickets for many, many years, hence the lowest price tiers selling out first every year (the lowest tiers often being gone on the first day).

@probablyrustin - yep, buyers of all three tiers get a crack at the tier 1 tickets. Buyers of tiers 2 and 3 get a crack at the tier 2 tickets. People who could pay more have been buying lower tier tickets for years (which explains how quickly they sell out each year).

Clar-i-ty wrote:I'm sorry BMOrg but this new system is still very upsetting.

Basically, people have 4 months from the last burn now to raise money to buy their ticket for the next burn. If you don't have the money in January, right after the holidays, then you're screwed and have to buy tickets at the highest price. So now I have to give my kids a choice: Christmas or Burning Man.

The event sold out this year. I think after that, people would know you can't wait until later in the year to purchase tickets.

If they kept it the same way, tickets may have sold out the first week. This method, if anything, seems to favor those who want or need to wait until later in the year.

I wait because I don't have that kind of disposable income at the moment. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna hustle like hell to get it, but there's a very good chance I won't be able to. It's an extra $75 a week I have to raise right now. Ah fuck it. If you're not living it I doubt you understand.

I'm not a freeloader, I work my ass off, I do as much as I can. This year that simply may not be enough.

I'm in the same boat with you Cla-ri-ty. And I agree, "If their not living it I doubt they understand"