I had a story in today’s paper about the number of six figure salaries going to those who work in our school system.

The numbers came from a project in which Buffalo’s Business First publication looked at the state’s Teachers Retirement System which had been secret until a lawsuit opened up their files.

Here is the link to pay data, and to another survey which looked at the per pupil spending. The top spenders tend to be on Long Island and in the Adirondacks although one of the lowest-spending district is in Glens Falls on the southern edge of the Adirondacks.

All you do on these message boards is complain. You seem very stressed. You should take a walk or spend a day at a spa or something.

I checked out my district. Seems to make since. Superintendent at the top, then the administrators, then some 30 year + teachers. About 30 total. All well trained with doctorates. What should a professional with a doctorate and 30 years of experience make?

Sorry for the sarcasm at first, it’s just that you are so darned cranky all the time on this site. You have to calm down a little.

Check out the Mechanicville Superintendent’s salary. Life must be really good there if they can afford to pay him $170,000 a year, with more undoubtedly to come. He is making more than the highest salaries at Suburban Council schools Saratoga, Burnt Hills and Ballston Spa. Nice work if you can get it.

Teachers get paid for working 181 school days during a calendar year, regardless.
This is after first completing 5 years of college, at a minimum, in New York, and agreeing to work for three years on probationary status where they can be terminated without cause on a minute’s notice. BTW, teachers making $100,000/yr. are few and far between, in this region, and, generally, have worked as a full-time teacher for 20-25 years or more in the same school district. Now, as for administrators, that is a whole different story.
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As for sick time, most public sector workers in New York, exclusive of teachers, accumulate a day per month (7.5 hours) of sick time. That is 12 per year. I personally know people with over 1,000 hours of accumulate sick leave. They hang on to their sick leave as protection against loss of pay during a major health episode. At least the smart one’s do. So, CNBC needs to do their homework before bashing people who teach, and work in other public sector jobs.

Why not consolidate every school district, outside of New York City, into countywide school districts? There are over 700 districts now that collectively are the most segregated in the entire United States. Consolidating these 700+ districts into 58 county districts, would 1) significantly reduce the costs of administrative overhead and, 2) give the county superintendent of schools the wherewithal to eliminate racial discrimination by assigning children to schools in such a way that no school has more than, say, 75% of any racial group, in attendance, at any one time. Imagine reducing the number of school district superintendents in New York (all making between $160K-$290K) from 700+ to 58. What a savings! This even before considering deputies for business, curriculum development, maintenance and upkeep, etc…

Vermont, with a population of about 650,000 has the highest per capita student spending in the country. That is because they have 334 school districts to service their K-12 children, each with its own superintendent, business officer, secretaries, head janitor, etc…
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I heard on NPR the other day, that government leaders in Vermont, are finally beginning to talk seriously about consolidation of school districts because public education is becoming so unaffordable with such an array of non-teaching overhead costs and so many school, districts operating in each hamlet in the state. We should really do the same in New York before the US Department of Education steps in and mandates it. We cannot operate segregated schools for ever! Thoughts?

Why does the media sensationalize salaries of those with advanced degrees, decades of experience or compares these salaries to retail where often no education and minimal experience is required. Would like to see salaries of contractors, shadow agency personnel and corporations getting enormous tax breaks since we the taxpaying public are well at least indirectly paying their wage.

There would be those on this blog that would argue minimum wage and zero benefits is too much for public employees with decades of experience and advanced degrees. The primary reason why property taxes are too high is year after year of budget cuts and excessive mandates.

To Person says: I try to mix it my comments, nonsensical to serious, because ALL our comments end up with Sunday TU edition…..at the bottom of the bird cage or housebreaking the puppy!!………..And yea…i pay 13k in taxes, mostly school, and pay another 8k to get my son OUT of my once great government school and into Catholic school, so i do need to vent!!…….I don’t blame teachers, but their UNION, the system is broken, STILL!!……Also, you must have “graduated” from a government school, the correct spelling is “sense” not since!!…….

Ah, more fodder for the manufactured outrage cannon.
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One thing we don’t see in all this reporting – both by the Business Journal and from the TU – is the total number of teachers in each group. Isn’t that relevant information? Wouldn’t people like to know what percentage of teachers make $100k before reflexively bitching about it? Wouldn’t people like to take that percentage of teachers pulling in over $100k and compare it to, I dunno, say, the percentage of people in the private sector with a Masters degree or a doctorate that pull down $100k or more a year so they can decide if there is, in fact, a problem?
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Nah. That’s just crazy talk! Nobody needs perspective to come up with an informed opinion.

To do that analysis I mention above and add the actual levity to the discussion that should have been part of it in the first place:
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No where that I can find on Buffalo Business Firsts website does the writer bother to note the total number of teachers and administrators in the state. So I needed to refer to Seethroughny to get a number. We’ll need to assume that both have the same data (which seems like a fairly easy assumption, given the the Empire Center was part of the lawsuit).
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As such, there are 384,122 teachers and administrators in the state outside of NYC (based on Empire Center data from NYSTRS for 2013).
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43,405 make $100k a year or more.
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That’s 11.29%.
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Moving on to Census income data:
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Census data for those with full-time employment reflects that 32.64% of those with a Masters or a Doctorate earn wages over $100k/year. 29.03% with a Masters earn wages $100k/year or more, and 49.01% of those with a Doctorate earn wages over $100k/year or more, with the mean wages of those with a Doctorate being $130k, and the mean wages of those with a Masters being $89k to add additional perspective. As this is nationwide data, and New York wages tend to be higher than what is seen around the nation, I believe it is not a great stretch to assume looking at strictly New York, all of these figures would be higher. Those who would question that are welcome to go digging for the same data on a state level and refute it.
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So it seems the conclusion to be made here is that teachers, compared to their peers with similar educational attainment do not to be, by and large, overly compensated. Professional malcontents might disagree with all sorts of various machinations, however, the numbers do the talking here, so as they say “The proof is in the pudding.”
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One thing the author for Buffalo Business First does point out (which is about the only thing I can give him credit for for adding any balance or perspective to his “reporting”) is that the vast majority of 6 figure salaries are downstate – 93% of those earning 6 figure salaries come from downstate. Granted, this will not stop the perpetually malcontented from complaining about teacher salaries in our area, but should add a bit more perspective for those looking for legitimate analysis.
_This is how an item like this should be reported by responsible, accurate reporters. I don’t expect that from Buffalo Business First – because, after all, it’s a “business” (read: conservative) publication, so it does not help them to publish any information that doesn’t paint the narrative they’re going for. On the other hand, by simply publishing what they had to say with no analysis of their own, the TU has dropped the ball here. As George Orwell once said: “Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed; everything else is public relations.” Clearly, Buffalo Business First did not want any perspective printed, or they would have included it in their analysis.
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This is just another example where rote, “he said, she said” reporting and mere republishing of a vested interests work/press releases by the press fails in actually informing the public of anything useful and instead just distorts any debate or meaningful discussion.

It’s pretty ironic that something called “Business First” would pursue policies that would result in a worse education for kids and thus dumber future employees. Seems to run counter to a goal of making more money.
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Apparently the idiot conservatives out there believe teachers should be working for minimum wage and that will solve all of their problems (mainly being jealously).

Once again, it is said that throwing money at educators, does not translate into education – classic example is the Rochester City School District – which is a state recognized failed system, and there are 273 employees who make more than $100K. Pay for performance? Please don’t get me started…………….

hawk, the overwhelming majority of workers in NYS, professional or otherwise,” work… where they can be terminated without cause on a minute’s notice”. The three year period teachers experience this is hardly punishment.

Darth is spot on that the salaries without context provide nothing to discuss.

“@Darth: I guess it takes a commenter to add some needed context….” – Bob
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Sadly this is an all too common occurrence. That is not an indictment of the TU itself, but the press in general. As the industry has changed from a business model that relies on subscription revenue to an industry that relies on ad revenue from their websites, clickbait stories with little to no perspective or background have become all too common, especially on the issues that spark controversy today, such as public sector compensation.
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Vested interests like think tanks are all too aware of this, and are happy to oblige with pre-written stories masquerading as press releases with a carefully crafted narrative.
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We’ve collectively become a nation of ill-informed dunces that are starved for accurate, easy to understand, and relevent information unless we search it out ourselves. Hence why we as a society idiotically argue over cut and dry things like teachers salaries that were never previously controversial.
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The internet is a great tool, but it has also shaped our social debates for the worse in a number of ways, from decimating the press, to allowing the village idiot to have the same gravitas in their statements as someone actually versed in a particular subject.

agreeing to work for three years on probationary status where they can be terminated without cause on a minute’s notice.
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This is a little bit of an stretch to reality…
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But once a teacher has Tenure it is all but impossible to fire said teacher, even after multi DWI convictions. In fact in my wifes school, they have to have the EMT’s bring a teacher to the ER because she was drunk and passed out in school… at 10am. Needless to say this was 2 years ago and she’s still got a full load of classes.

@17. Elmo…
I agree with what you say about Darth’s comments…. in fact, my comments of yesterday
above, reflect his sentiments completely.
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In my town, Albany, 94 employees are in this Buffalo report, and about 2/3rds are administrators. Of the 30, or so teachers listed, 6-7 are no longer active teachers, having retired more than a year ago. So, this data isn’t wholly accurate. Like I said, a classroom teacher has to be a 25 years + veteran to get up into the $100,000 range in salary. As you can imagine, teaching knuckleheads like you and me, for that long, deserves a hefty salary…

As for the question of tenure, if you don’t earn it in 3 years, as a public school teacher, you are automatically terminated…. So, its like, teachers have to wait three years to find out if the have a job. This is not the case in the private sector….as you well know. Generally, if you last a month on a job in the private sector, and the company is making money, you, as a worker, have a job for life, right? However, if the company starts to lose its market share, lose money, or the boss blows his profits at the race track, you are out the door. I have seen all three happen. How about you?

One final note, I really think going to a county wide, school district system in New York would save tons, literally tons, of tax dollars. Imagine, 700 school district superintendents down to 58. Wow! It is the only way to solve our big segregation problem too. Hard to believe that New York runs the most segregated school system in the entire United States, isn’t it? One school district, per county, would solve that problem asap. What do you think?

hawk:
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I think a discussion on consolidation would be reasonable, however, the expectations also have to be reasonable.
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For example, you’re never going to convince residents of wealthy suburbs to combine their districts with poor urban districts. So outright moving to a county-wide district is politically impossible.
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Better to look at what the lower cost districts are doing right and try to implement those things in higher cost districts. IE: Biz Journal notes Glendale Falls has the lowest cost per student in out area. How do they do that? What lessons can be taken away from them for other districts?
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Start small.

For example, you’re never going to convince residents of wealthy suburbs to combine their districts with poor urban districts. So outright moving to a county-wide district is politically impossible.
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But that’s not what county wide schools are! You would still have a Niskayuna and Schenectady district, but they’d have 1 admin not 2… yes some kids may be moved from one district to the other if it make geographical sense… but you won’t see kids who live on the other side of rt 7 suddenly going to Schenectady high.
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Better to look at what the lower cost districts are doing right and try to implement those things in higher cost districts.
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In many cases is more tax favorable union contracts… no free health care, no 4 or 5% increase every year.

“In many cases is more tax favorable union contracts… no free health care, no 4 or 5% increase every year.” – Andrew
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Clearly an assertion made with no analysis done on your part. I know those North Country districts well. Those teachers aren’t significantly underpaid than elsewhere. Try looking at their budgets line by line and try again.

Someone yesterday mentioned the size of the district’s budget as a measure of the superintendent’s salary, wondering if a private sector CEO would be making as much or as little as a superintendent if they both oversaw a $163M budget. I think that comparison is a little difficult because in the private sector, you are pursuing profits and I have a bit of a problem with public school administrators being in it for the “profits” they reap via salary and benefits.

As for the teacher salaries, even if they aren’t making $100K per year until they’ve been at it for 25+ years, they are still making $50-$70K a year for a substantial period of time and are only working 181 days a year! That’s a really good salary, yes, even for someone with an advanced degree who works about 60 days a year fewer than the rest of us who also have college degrees.

Teacher tenure after 3 years is ridiculous, bottom line. The question isn’t whether they can be fired or not during that period of time. The question is how many are actually denied tenure? If nearly all of the teachers are given tenure after three years with little or no real evaluation of their skill development over that period of time, then the whole thing is a joke. Everyone with children has encountered a teacher that has made you wonder “how did they ever get tenure”? Well, if it’s a rubber stamp then what’s the point? In colleges, professors have to demonstrate a vitae of research and scholarly publications (and graduate students are given input into the decision) to get tenure after 7 years and they are teaching much more specialized topics to young adults. Elementary school teachers have to teach across a broad range of topics and after only 540 days on the job they can get a lifelong position, laying the foundation for all the learning across a child’s lifespan? Does that still make sense?

“But once a teacher has Tenure it is all but impossible to fire said teacher, even after multi DWI convictions. – Andrew
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Why would a teacher be fired for a DWI conviction? What, exactly, does that have to do with their job?
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It’s one thing to expect a teacher who shows up drunk to work would have to face disciplinary action. It’s entirely outrageous to expect they will face disciplinary action for a DWI from say, too many glasses of wine after dinner.
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Get a grip on reality.

Darth…
Lets not forget to look at parochial schools too. They keep their costs pretty low too by not paying much in salary and benefits, among other things, like very low administrative overhead. No assistants to assistant what evers….
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The suburban districts you speak of, are just as much guilty of racial segregation as the charter schools in Albany, Troy, Schenectady etc… They may not have a choice, when all is said and done. The norm seems to be a number below 90% racial composition, be it black or white. So, any school that cannot prove they have a racial composition mix below that 90/10 standard is ripe for being accused of fostering segregation, in violation of Federal law. What will Guilderland Public Schools do, if, lets say, they only have a 95%-5% white to minority composition of students and the Feds say they have to triple the number of minority students in attendance at their schools or face severe penalties? Once Obama leaves office, this problem may become a major issues for our region, and the entire state of New York, especially when the charter school idea gets stale. The simplest solution for the state will be to follow the path of southern states by setting up county-wide school districts. Just saying.

hawk:
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I’ve never seen a parochial school budget. Have you? Not to sound flippant, but as private organizations, they don’t publish their budgets AFAIK.
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As such, that’s an assertion without evidence.
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As far as the racial tones you’re bringing into the conversation on consolidation, I’m not going to speculate on that. I will say well off parents tend to want control over their own schools. You can read in to that what you will, but I offer no argument one way or the other.

Yes, teachers are in attendance, for pay purposes, 181 days a year at the schools that hire them. But that does not take into account, time spent in SED mandated training, attendance at after school functions like parents night(s), sporting events, proms, etc, and the endless hours at home spent correcting papers, writing evaluations, doing lesson plans, corresponding with administrators by E-mail, talking to parents on the phone, etc… Teachers, often spend 15 to 20 hours a week of their own time, doing other things besides teaching in the classroom. As for denial of tenure, I can say, unequivocally, it happens, often, especially when there are an abundance of out-of-work teachers and recently graduated perspective teachers looking for jobs. How many? Your guess is as good as mine but I know it happens. BTW, I know several professors, with tenured jobs who teach as few as two classes a semester, and they get paid a heck of a lot more than K-12 teachers…. just saying.

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