Grrl Power #274 – Master sham

Well that’s concerning. The team is going to figure out something and fast. Vehemence’s own plan isn’t terribly grandiose, admittedly. He’d obviously thought about what he could do with a huge amount of power, but all those things spiral into violence on a scale he doesn’t seem to be interested in. I think if asked about it, he’d reply that stirring up that much chaos would just be rude. He’s only interested in fighting fighters, but he’s not above benefiting from free form violence either. Ok, maybe he’s helped facilitate it here and there as well, but nothing that would lead to wholesale slaughter.

Anvil of course absorbs kinetic energy, but that thing that Vehemence did was more of a short lived push-you wall of force. He normally can’t do that, or really most of what he’s doing tonight, but then he never sucked up all the V-Juice from a 50 super person battle royale before either, not to mention took on 5 supers directly afterwards. In RPG terms, he basically has nearly any power he wants now, but he’s paying a big cost penalty for making them up on the spot. That’s fine with him though as his current pool is wide and deep. I say nearly because so he’s as much as admitted he can’t fly, and he’s yet to show that he can come up with powers like telepathy or other indirectly employed abilities. It’s all been direct physical stuff, maybe except for the anchor, but that’s a very bricky power anyway.

Panel 3 was almost a parody of political cartoons, with a caricatured Vehemence sitting on a throne as people labeled “poor” led people labeled “rich” to the gallows or something. I was about 5 minutes into drawing that before I decided spoofing political cartoons is a tall order since they’re all basically parodies of themselves already.

Here’s the link to the new comments highlighter for chrome which I can’t live without anymore, and the GitHub link which you can use to install on FireFox via Greasemonkey.

Discussion (904) ¬

Ok, the 3rd panel. Either there are 2 people, one with a pitchfork and one person behind him with a sign on a stick, who happen to be holding them at the exact same angle, or a perfectly perpendicular angle, or that person has a sign with a picture of just the top of a pitchfork on it. I choose option 2. It amuses me to no end.

I don’t mind the pacing or the update schedule. My annoyance is with V being Hulk-esque…and not the original Hulk. Every page is a new power or two, all of them designed to make him undefeatable without some Fairy Godmother twist.

Odds are, it’s going to be something Sydney does, which annoys me. Not Sydney herself,. but having her have all the answers when honestly, from all we’ve seen she’s a relatively inexperienced comic nerd with little real-world experience. In comics you rarely see people crushed under the buildings the supers bring down, and she has admitted comics have misled her on the collateral damage side. Given the range of this battle, it stretches the bonds of believability…in a comic where comic books are known and understood to be unrealistic, leading us to assume `this’ comic isn’t going to follow those same rules…that NO ONE was hurt or killed as collateral damage. A super battle with NO gawkers, bystanders, or ambulance chasers? No way.

So this has caused massive damage to property and most likely life and limb of innocents. And sadly, Sydney has little to no experience with that. Reference her freaking in the bank during the initial robbery until she lost her temper as proof of her `innocence’.

Sydney had her Hero Moment when she figured out Death Toll. Her being the key to defeating V as well is just a bit much. Many are hoping the two mystery orb will be key, but then an essential element of Sydney’s growth gets blown in the first big fight. She has to have things to learn about herself and her powers; the journey is the thing. Dave could go for years without revealing or even deciding what those orbs do.

And Dave…I’m really annoyed at the mis-treatment of Max. According to her bio, she’s possibly the most powerful super in the world, with experience, charisma, leadership ability, tactical knowledge, etc. All that and a bag of chips, right? Tell me, other than the `bank robbers’ and an already destroyed tank…and giving Harem a wedgie…what exactly has Max done *right*? She can’t dent Sydney’s forcefield, she can’t drag the original container away from Sydney (one would think Sydney would have been dragged rather than Max being pulled off balance…or the container would have broken…); she can’t put Dabbler down, and V is beating her like a used stepchild. You’re making her into a joke, and I really liked the original idea of her…someone heroic and pragmatic and *real* that Sydney could use as a role model. Now…why would Sydney or anyone look up to her? She’s become a joke, a paper tiger.

I agree with everything you said, Grimjac. I mean, I like Sydney, but she did have Death Toll figured out to show how valuable she is. What I’m not seeing is why Maxima is valuable when the big guns come out. She’s just the worf effect entirely.

First of all, we’ve only seen Maxima attack Sydney’s force field in a testing capacity. We’ve never seen her actually /try/ to break the shield.

Second, last I checked, Dabbler wasn’t better than Maxima. She’s on Maxima’s tier and enjoys annoying her, but we haven’t seen them actually brawl. If they’ve brought up when the two have fought before, I don’t remember it. I vaguely recall Dave saying that Dabbler CAN win the fight but isn’t guaranteed too, and that the fight would usually be swung Maxima’s way. So yeah, she CAN ‘put Dabbler down’.

Third… while I’ll admit the tube thing is a little weird given that Vehemence just did something similar a page or two ago, I attribute it to Maxima being caught completely off guard by the sheer level of resistance the tube presented. Much like how she’s fast enough to catch a bullet, but not to dodge shoe vomit.

“Now…why would Sydney or anyone look up to her?”
Well for one thing there’s more to role models than winning fights. And by that i mean ‘nobody intelligent’s going to look up to Maxima just because of her superpowers’.

Maxima’s tough as nails, level-headed and intelligent enough to direct a super brawl. As we saw in the restaurant, Maxima’s compassionate(ish) and a great person to talk to regarding superpowers.

Your foes need to be threatening and dangerous. Deus Ex Maxima is not interesting and we all know it. Maxima getting into a pickle that might actually endanger her life? THAT is cool. I was wondering how Vehemence could possibly justify being strong enough for Maxima to NOT instantly obliterate.

And even now, Vehemence can’t win without even more power. He just finished admitting so himself.

“So this has caused massive damage to property and most likely life and limb of innocents. ”
This entire fight took place in a restaurant parking lot. A restaurant that Arianna had already evacuated long before Vehemence even had his first speaking line.

I think Dabbler is more suited with magic than physical force. (She blocked maxima’s punch with a magic shield if I recall correctly) So she is probably not suited to fight V, he has speed as pointed out by sydney near the beginning and has resisted what I think was a sleep spell from Dabbler earlier. So unless Dabbler went to a chip and dales for an orgy while we weren’t looking she probably isn’t strong enough or fast enough to get close to him. Plus she needs time to prepare a strong enough spell to do any lasting damage.

No only were non-combatants quickly ushered out of the restaurant, but if you look at the sign outside the door (first panel where Dave started the dinner-scene), the whole place was already rented for a “private function.” Ergo, there were no civilian patrons there when the villains broke in, except members of Archon & the restaurant staff.

Some corrections. The orbs can not be moved farther than a certain distance from Sydney or they simple STOP. Sydney can not be moved farther than a certain distance from the orbs or she simply STOPS. Vehemence pulled Sydney closer to himself via the Light Hook as a link HE DID NOT at any point move the orb farther away from Sydney than its limit or Sydney from it. He moved them both together which is allowed by them. I’m not picking on you I’ve just seen this one a lot over this last boss fight and I’m doing my best to correct it (though its probably too late for folks to see this one… )

Maxima ordered her troops as to which one was to coordinate getting the civilians out not Arianna. A minor point but since it was one of the few “shown” strategic actions of hers I totally think is correct and good I thought I’d make sure it got attributed to her. (Arianna shouldn’t be able to order the troops around anyway)

I have some issues with Maxima’s performance as a strategist. Some minor that I could be wrong on and some major that I won’t likely ever see fixed so I’ll just have to pretend parts of this fight didn’t happen so it doens’t screw up her character. But I and others have already gone into them maaany times on many updates of the comic so I’ll leave that alone this time.

According to the vast bios, Max is a 9 and Dabbler a 7. Dabbler isn’t on Max’s level. And Max `tested’ Sydney’s forcefield with not just her fists but also power blasts at the range; one would assume given the shockwaves with a little more than a gentle probe.

As for Deus ex Maxima…why not? We’re gearing up for Deus ex V; all hail the Bald God of Destruction Against Whom None Can Stand. Got a power? V can beat it! Got an idea? Won’t work against V! It’s no better for a villain than a hero…and this comic, as far as I’ve been able to determine, is not ABOUT Max! It’s about Sydney…learning and experiencing and hopefully growing. The original Max was an awesome role model…this one, not nearly so much. No, winning fights does not automatically make a good role model, but LOSING them sure tarnishes your image especially when you’re TEACHING ME TO FIGHT! “Goldy-girl, you can’t even use YOUR powers well enough to win a fight against TWO barechested guys, and you’re telling ME how to use MY powers? Yeah, I think I’m gonna find a teacher knows how to win with her powers, mmkay?”

And “This entire fight took place in a restaurant parking lot. A restaurant that Arianna had already evacuated long before Vehemence even had his first speaking line.” Yeah. Until heroes and villains were thrown hundreds of yards, possibly miles…and you mean to tell me none of those `evacuees’ had a cell phone, texted a friend, maybe taped it and posted it? Not to mention all the cops and/or soldiers that SHOULD be around? Nobody driving by, seeing the activity and thinking, “Hey! They must be filming a movie! Let me tell all my friends, maybe we can get autographs!”

Nope. That strains the suspension if disbelief way beyond the WTF Event Horizon. You just need to look at any car accident or burning building to support my view.

But it’s Dave’s story and he tells it how he wants, not as I or anyone else might wish. I can point out what I see as weak points, but I’m just along for the ride and he’s telling it far better than I could, so there ya go.

“Max is a 9 and Dabbler a 7. Dabbler isn’t on Max’s level.”
From Maxima’s own friggen mouth we have the exact opposite testimony. Dabbler fought her “to a standstill”, that is by definition on Maxima’s level.

“Deus Ex Maxima”
It’s boring because it would end the entire fight instantly without struggle. V having enough power to threaten the group is not a DEM, it’s threat escalation.

When I brought up the parking lot I was specifically answering the specific idea that people were getting horribly hurt by all this. No one in their right mind is going to run TOWARDS the signs of battle in this situation.

“You just need to look at any car accident or burning building to support my view.”
The building is EMPTY and so was the parking lot. We saw all potential victims had been evacuated (or were supers in the fight itself, but I’m assuming that’s not the point)

“yards to miles”
Yards, I can buy. MILES?! A mile is roughly 5000 feet. Aside from Maxima throwing Vehemence through an empty field and into a construction site that no one was currently working in (and that looked more like a football field distance) what even came close to a SINGLE mile, let alone multiple?

Deus ex Maxima is no more boring, and in fact would support the premise of the series far better than Deus ex V. Seriously, what’s the point in fighting here…for us readers, I mean…as objective observers, we see the entire battle whereas the combatants see only their little slice of heaven.

As readers, we can see it as `Why bother even trying because V is going to continue to dominate and pull esoteric powers out of his butt at need, so there IS NO DRAMATIC CONFLICT!” Seriously, there’s zero. It dropped to empty when he became stronger than Max, and has quantum shifted to Ludicrous Inanity when he can suddenly regenerate EVEN STRONGER BODY PARTS! We KNOW how this is going to end, and it’s not going to be pretty or make any sense. We know Max and Sydney and Anvil survive as this is all a flashback. As it stands now, they CANNOT beat him without some buttspace magic…pulling something completely out of their butt we’re supposed to believe fits in the context of the story. In *my* opinion, Dave should have went with Death Toll being the Big Bad, as up until then it was a good workout for the whole team and Max was able to stay back and command the entire fight. He fell into the trap of needing to manufacture a crisis that would challenge everyone, including Max, and forgot that many if not most of us read and love G.P. because it *isn’t* the regular Battle of the Week comic. Sydney has already pointed out that comics have misled her as to how it all works…and here’s Dave following the same clichéd path.

As for collateral damage and the possibility of casualties: again, NO ONE had a cell phone? The restaurant is out in the middle of nowhere with no neighbors within miles? Explosions and gunshots and God-knows-what-else, and NOBODY hears it, reports it, calls it in, goes to check it out? In today’s world where EVERYTHING is recorded, tweeted, posted on Facebook? The waitress or busboy didn’t text or snap a cellphone pic about the weird golden chick at the restaurant tonight? Since you’re reading this on the web, I’m assuming you’re conversant with the technology of the moment, and likewise aware of how that technology is used today. While I suppose it is technically *possible* no minimum-wage busboy or harried waitress thought the ARCSWAT party worth texting about, I’d say it’s far from probable. And since the press conference was today, there would be a LOT of interest and likely quite a few star-chasers headed that way to see them in person. And yes, the restaurant was evacuated…by whom? Cops? Soldiers? They’re immune to collateral damage?

As for Dabbler and Max…the only surety we have is their cast bios. When Max admits Dabbler fought her to a standstill, there is no clarification…did they accept limits? No flight, no shield, no teleportation? Skill only, no super-powers? We don’t know…all we know for certain is what’s in the cast bio, and going by that, Dabbler is NOT on Max’s level. When it comes to magic? Sure, Dabbler beats her. Use of hammerspace? Yup, got the edge there, too. Full-on boobs-out buttkicking? Well, judging by what we’ve seen, Dabbler has her, there, too. She at least managed to take out the swordswoman and Max…well, apparently she can’t even manage a takeout menu.

And again…Deus ex Maxima would be less boring than Deus ex V. Dave made him too powerful and *that* IS and always will be boring. I don’t mind my heroes being overpowered because I want them to win. Sure, have him break Max’s nose, she blackens his eye, give and take, and she eventually wins because she’s MAXIMA.

This? This is boring. V is not an interesting character. He’s an OTT OP one-shot. Or should be a one-shot. ARCSWAT’s arch-villain, as I see it and it seems Dave originally intended the series to represent, should be more Daffy Duck than Darkseid.

I see why you’re feeling that I’m Worf effecting Maxima here. I suppose that’s valid, but I think the Worf effect is really more applicable in a situatuion where the bad guy shows up and whoops Worf out of the blue to establish them as the greater threat. Vehemence is only as powerful as he is because he tricked them into the fight. Yes, the end result is that he’s now more powerful, but only because of his dastardly scheming. I chose Vehemence for their first arch because he kind of negates Maxima’s power advantage when applied correctly.

Believe me the first version of this fight went very differently in my head. 2 or 3 years go, Vehemence wasn’t in the fight at all and it was just some guy who was much tougher than the other brawlers they had faced up to that point. It pretty much ended after Maxima ground him like a peppercorn with the overpass pylon, leaving everyone staring in shock at how powerful Max is.

The problem with that ending is that people would complain that Max is too powerful and every fight will wind up being “hold out until max gets here, then sit back and watch the carnage.” So it’s either Deus ex Maxima or Worf effect. Vehemence seemed like a good middle ground. Someone who is potentially tougher than her, and who in fact benefits from her aggressive stance on supervillainy.

I can sorta see where you are coming from and in the cases of PBS and Vehemence, the villain is only as tough as the heroes make them. This provides impetuous to provide out of the box solutions and can provide with something between gods and glass cannons whom fighting head to head vs someone like Shawn, Goose, or Math vs fighting head to head vs someone like Maxima or even the whole can be logically done.

Everything you’re saying is fine and good as far as it goes. And thank you for taking the time to inform us by the way. Appreciated muchly what with how busy you’ve been with this fight. But another concern, that was a part of the original post, is not just that Maxima is being out performed power wise but that she is also being out performed as a leader and strategist. A big part of her build up was not just that she was a power house but that she was a very experienced power house. She’s not only been a part of many successful engagements but also a stand still or two as well as being put in the hospital once. And they chose to put her in charge of the super troops in the field when they formed ARC and they didn’t have to. The leader doesn’t have to be the strongest power wise unless we are going by barbarian rules here. So it is to be assumed that she is known to have the chops for this command.

If she is completely out smarted twice in the same fight is bad enough. If she has to be saved by the complete green horn Sydney both times in the first fight of the comic in a fight she could have died in? That’s gonna do some damage to a reputation we were just getting set up. This is the first time her reputation in these areas is being shown instead of told and at the very least she should have been responsible for figuring out ONE of these two’s powers and what to do about them. Unless you want her reputation to begin to be eroded in the audiences eyes this early.

I understand you can’t really reply to this though cause the fights not over yet. And just in case its not obvious with this comment I am still enjoying the comic overall. This is just a growing concern of mine with this one character.

Like you said the fight isn’t over, so all I can say is there’s reasons things play out the way they do, but it’s a fair point that Max has been outfoxed a few times tonight. She did coordinate the team from above and as a result they did extremely well up until the two major stumbling blocks. Of course many aspects of the fight could have gone better, but the bottom line is it’s a writing thing. If Max had figured out everything and creamed the tough bad guys without any help, it would compound the Deus ex Maxima vibe as well as making the fight less interesting. That’s not to say that every fight will go down like this. It will be a formative evening for Max certainly.

Yeah, I kind of understood all this from the start. Max was using the battle as an excuse to test her team more than anything else because her powerset effectively gives her God Mode powers compared to everyone else. There were really only three options from a writing standpoint:
– Max singlehandedly destroys the entire enemy team
– Max does nothing to contribute to the main fight, either due to choice or unavoidable distraction (i.e. pulled away before the event begins for a high priority reason)
– Max actually encounters someone who can counter her

The storyline is set up to support this outcome, as well. Prior to this, the Archons were treating any potential supervillain threat as a joke, or at least a foregone conclusion. Death Toll and Vehemence show up here to act as wake-up calls to the protagonists AND as something to drive the plot. Now it’s noted that the Archons don’t just have to worry about the rare God Mode tier supers, but the supers with more malleable power levels.

Frankly, I think knocking some humility into Max is far better than keeping her power level so much higher than anyone else’s. Otherwise you kind of force yourself into a situation where you either have to write your heroes as being stupidly moralistic or to constantly churn out new villains, because Max should be taking down everyone effortlessly and straight up killing the ones that try to make repeat appearances.

The Dabbler vs Max situation? I kind of got the impression that Dabbler could hold Max off indefinitely (assuming Max doesn’t sneak attack her with the intent to kill) but not that she could actually take Max down.

And Sydney’s shield? Well, Sydney’s orbs are already noted as being outside the usual rules of superheroes… plus, again, there’s a difference between being able to defend yourself from some hits and actually being a viable threat to someone.

Not only is this Sydney’s establishing moment from a writing standpoint (remember who the protagonist actually is, after all) but that’s also basically Sydney’s entire role right now, because she’s not supposed to be getting directly involved in the combat. All she’s done since she first hit Shadow Magic Guy has been to get in her shield and provide limited support, whereas Max has been running the whole thing from up top.

We already know that Sydney later gets promoted, and considering her eccentricities it’s not unfair to assume that it’s because she proves herself spectacularly.

Fought to a standstill, not beaten. The former implies that Dabbler was able to use her undoubtedly wider variety of skills and combat experience to force a situation where neither could win, while the latter implies that she was able to subdue Maxima or put Maxima into a situation where Dabbler could’ve killed her.

Thanks for the reply, Dave…for all my nitpicking, I do love the comic thus far and hope you collect it as a graphic novel at some point.

That said, as far as writing points go, I’m of the opinion that breaking Max down before we actually get to see her triumph is a dis-service. I really liked the concept of the most powerful super in the world was not just a female, but an intelligent, experienced, and wise female. Very good ideals and concepts. To avoid a Mary Sue-esque vibe, you have her interactions with Sydney and Dabbler, making her human and fallible and occasionally uncertain.

And our first big fight…bam. Two guys who take her to school and give her a failing grade. At this point I’m expecting Max to be an actress hired by Arriana with a carefully crafted bio and an awesome PR machine, none of which is accurate.

And while I understand the idea of V being arch-nemesis recurring buttmunch blah-blah-blah…I have to ask: WHY does ARCSWAT need a nemesis? This is not supposed to be The Avengers or Superman; this is supposed to be a comedic/slice of life superhero caper. I’d expect the arch-nemesis to be more Bugs Bunny than Hulk. Giving V all these powers doesn’t, in my opinion, make him suddenly worthy of being an arch-nemesis; instead it paints you into a corner, as you’re going to be forced to come up with more and more ludicrous villains to give even the illusion of dramatic tension. Death Toll would have been the perfect ending for this fight; the team got a workout with the lower-level villains and DT was enough of a Final Boss, and cemented Sydney’s contribution to the team.

Now…sadly, I stopped caring about the fight. V is going to manifest God-like powers (well, more god-like powers) until he saunters away laughing with Max’s panties on his head, to take on the 5th Marines and the Mossad, with the Taliban as an after-dinner treat. He’s going to have her panties made into a battle-standard and send pics of them out in his challenge cards. ARCSWAT will be disbanded in disgrace; Max will be exiled to a North Pole listening post, Sydney will go back to her comic store, the male ARC guys will form a traveling male stripper cabaret and debut on Broadway next year.

Or after a few more pages of beating them all like used stepchildren, someone will suddenly notice he has a dimple to the left of his third vertebra which MUST mean that’s a weak point and wonder-of-wonders, if the team uses all their various powers together in a carefully choreographed display, they take him down.

No. Seriously, this guy needs to die…literally die…in the next couple panels. If he beats ARCSWAT, they’re finished. No one will fund them because in their first fight, they got spanked and Max watched her panties saunter away on this guy’s bald head.

And if they beat him, with what we’ve seen thus far, it’s going to be due to some sort of, “Guys, I just pulled this magic bullet out of my butt and I think it’s exactly what we need!”

And finally…since I sort of have your attention…can you PLEASE tell me what exactly is wrong with a Deus ex Maxima vibe? Sydney is supposed to be the focus of the comic…and Max the mentor/role model. What’s so bad with Sydney watching Max tear this guy’s arm off and beat him to death with it, Sydney’s jaw on the ground as Max makes it look easy, and Sydney thinking, “Damn! I wanna be HER when I grow up!” Max should not NEED `formative evenings’. She’s a professional soldier who’s been there, done that, and is now The Boss.

Unless I misread the entire archives several times, this is Sydney’s Learning Adventures, not Maxima’s Fight Of The Week. Max’s development should be learning or experiencing Sydney’s brand of reality and her effects thereon…not get her butt kicked because `Oh, gosh, she needs a challenge and can’t be TOO powerful!”

I guess that’s true. The fight isnt over yet. I was just getting really frustrated – felt a lot like the opposite of how a switched fight goes – usually something like where the bad guy has the advantage at first, then the protagonist/hero manages to figure a new strategy to prevail. Especially when people were saying stuff like how V is not bad, and not threatening, etc (or saying how they must combat violence with lust, then jokes about how Dabbler would get impaled to death, etc).

If it wasnt the first arch villain fight, it wouldnt bother me so much because Maxima would have been able to build up some sort of reputation. Right now it really feels like it’s all talk, no proof when there’s real action, except against people like Hex (Halo Lite) or unpowered people (though they were actually Achilles and Amorphous acting).

Like I said, pretty much what Observer said. It’s true though that for all I know, things are going to turn around and this is being done to make him seem unbeatable just to make the eventual victory all the sweeter (though it confuses me if V is going to be a recurring villain).

Yeah I can understand that creating such a brawl early on with its own big boss, who has to be defeated or routed or something for the established flash forward, has created many potential writing dilemmas. Which is why many don’t have such a big fight so early when the characters aren’t established well. That’s not a dig. I think its cool you have set your creative bar so high and are doing everything you can to rise to it on this what sounds like your first attempt at a story of this nature? Very cool. (said by someone who hasn’t done any such thing themselves… ^_^’ )

It certainly surprised, tickled, and titillated all us super fans when we realized this rare event was actually taking place! (as you can tell by the ever sky rocketing comment number and length! ^_^’ )

I guess I would never be a great writer cause I don’t have a very good feel for an audience. To me it would be hard, when writing, to take seriously a “Deus Ex Maxima” “VIBE” because… I only get a “vibe” of a Deus Ex Machina when one is actually happening. If she had taken him out by blowing his head then all foreshadowing would have been brought to fruition while still showing that V had a chance if he hadn’t been so cocky and presumptive of her attitudes and personal policies it would have negated “Deus Ex Maxima” because you can’t have that when her abilities are foreshadowed so well and at the same time would have established her character better as fact instead of the narrative version of hearsay. Its like if I said that 95% of the time it rains on any given day at this one spot on the map AAaaand then after a long, dry, clear sky day some clouds moved in at the last moments and rained and everybody got mad about it… That’s a heavily foreshadowed event, you can be annoyed that you didn’t get to see the unexpected because you love the unexpected (totally understand that) but you can’t call it Deus Ex Machina because it was EXPECTED!! Deus Ex Machina is UNEXPECTED. The fact that other people have that irrational problem would not sway me. Aaaand maybe I wouldn’t have as large an audience then I guess… *shrugs*

Maxima, her powers, and her combat training/experience are well established in dialogue and flashbacks. Her superiors are very much expecting her to be the reserves to solve normally unsolvable combat issues (not everything is a combat issue or can be solved with overwhelming force) if they can get her there in time. (team will most likely be split up for missions as needed) Therefore we, the audience, should have been expecting her to be a big part of the solution, either power or training/experience wise, with at least one of the Bell Toll or V fights if not both as this is the first fight on the first day of the comic and it is a joyous time of character establishment.
Character establishment time a golden age where everybody is what you expect them to be before the story really gets rolling enough to start messing with those characters or their abilities (character growth). It is a time for establishing baselines of abilities, personalities, etc…

As far as the fight being uninteresting… It pretty much amazed us to have it here at the beginning in the first place. The comments have been growing with every turn mini boss battle and now with every turnabout with V. Its already a VERY interesting and amusing fight ESPECIALLY this early in the comic. Maybe people are expecting more because of the twice a week reveals we get instead of a sit down and read archive dive but if it was read straight through I think it was plenty interesting. You can’t please everyone. A good chunk of the vocal audience wanted V to get taken down fairly early for instance.

But I see your point. You have an audience to cater to and audiences are strange and mysterious creatures only partially down with the logic.

BUT >> you say there are some reveals coming that will help me deal. I am grateful and look forward to this balm to my soul.

Thank you for taking a minute out of your harried schedule to calm the masses in general and me in particular. As always I say what I say to say it and not to draw you away from making the comic I look forward to with a reply. Though I am most grateful that you have.

I’m pretty sure that this makes you a better person than me, even with the amount of passive-aggressive snarkiness in your post.

For the record, I really do like this comic; if I didn’t, I wouldn’t care so passionately about how betrayed I feel about this fight.

I realize DaveB is probably sick to death reading my comments, but I hope he will take a moment to read this:

I am disillusioned and disappointed at the moment. I don’t see any way you can resolve this fight in a way that doesn’t make Maxima look like a complete loser, not to mention an overly prideful braggart windbag.

That said, I’m honestly hoping that you prove me wrong, and that you do it in a way that does not invalidate the story that you’ve told up to this point. I am not optimistic, merely hopeful. If you manage it, I promise to reinstate my pledge and, if I can figure out a way, to give you back-pay for the month (assuming that is all that it is) that you’ve lost from me.

I’ll shut up, now. I think you’ve heard everything I had to say and absorbed all you’re likely to. I hope I have made a difference, but I don’t really expect that I have.

Incidentally, for all of you who feel I am talking out of my hat (or, perhaps, out of my nether regions), I invite you to look at my work, easily located by referencing the link in my name. While I’m very much an amateur, I also have a lot of experience and a fairly extensive library of my own work, including a couple of pieces where Breakpoint (a character that DaveB used in order to demonstrate Hiro’s energy absorption/reflection ability) is a major character.

“passive-aggressive snarkiness” Guess in trying not to offend the hand that feeds us I might have gone the other route and attacked “Everybody Else” a little. Fan version of sibling rivalry reared its ugly head a little I guess. Sorry.

To be fair, Maxima was being a little prideful. A lot of it was her trying to put the fear of god into bad guys, but she didn’t mind bragging on national TV either. Having her eat a little crow here would help temper her ego a little. Not a lot, mind you.

I hope you like the rest of the fight too. I just finished a page that I think is pretty funny. Maxima doesn’t break anyone in half on it or anything though. :)

There’s nothing wrong with a Deus ex Maxima vibe at all. I will be thrilled to pull it out on occasion. One of my favorite comics right now is Onepunch Man, cause I like seeing the good guy smear the competition so hard that he gets mopey that there aren’t any challenges out there. Granted OPM is a bit of a parody of the genre, but a straight version of it is Fist of the Northstar, where Kenshiro really doesn’t face a serious challenge throughout the whole series. (At least the original run of the comic. I know there are several series, most of which I haven’t kept up on.)

I just didn’t want to wrap up the first big fight of the comic with Maxima crushing the opposition handily because… Well, there are a lot of reasons but basically I thought it was more interesting to have a villain be able to beat her through cleverly applied powers and tactics.

All I can say without laying out a bunch of spoilers is hang in for a few more pages, Vehemence gets to continue proving what a big boy threat he is (even more so) before things start to turn around on him. And don’t worry, the solution isn’t something I’m pulling out of my ass like punching him in his vertebrae dimple. Although… I kind of want to have Maxima punch him in the spine now.

I would like Maxima to have a Mortal Kombat finisher on his spine now! XD

Don’t worry. There has NEVER been a time when I was not only “hanging in there” but in fact hanging on the edge of my seat. In fact I am basically commenting tons here because I am excitedly waiting for the progress of this comic. IF this fight did end in a way that weakened Maxima’s character I would then wait for the next fight to come along so you could shore it up again (which while I feel some of the damage was already done much earlier in the fight against weaker opponents: This isn’t over yet as you say. ) All the while happily engrossing myself in all the awesome slice of life moments I know will be coming when you wrap this fight up.

I’m assuming some of the things you said were aimed at other posters since those aren’t my worries. Understandable we are all very verbose on this subject so best to answer us all at once.

I’m conflicted now xD. I think the main issue with theses people hating on V is that they’re not seeing him correctly. You stated that he’s an INNATE USER OF VIOLENCE, not that he is powered by it. I’m looking at it that he is more of a wizard that prefers to play as a battle mage, whereas Dabbler is a wizard that prefers to play as a technomage. My main criticism would be that his intelligence significantly dropped when his shirt and hat came off but otherwise he’s a great character.

Dabbler even implied that if this whole thing was an orgy she’d have enough power to take on the whole team here https://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1536 so why would V who is powered by violence and who set this up not be on the same level? Just a few pages back everyone was suggesting Dabbler should start screwing everyone in order to win. If the same rules apply, then the same outcome should be expected otherwise it’s just hypocritical and favoritism.

Lastly, you mentioned that Maxima can draw against her other stats, and I don’t believe she has yet. I’m pretty sure she just only readjusted her uppermost power level and has 2 more levels she can draw from as well. She laughed at the idea that her mini nuke was her full power and we haven’t even seen that level of power displayed yet.

It’s been a great read so far and you’re definitely delivering on the big battle and action promise, but I think that a section of your fans are just wanting hero curbstomp galore and mary sue escapism. I personally like the route you’re going and your reasons for doing so make much more sense than some things that are being proposed. I know that I would be taken aback if you opted to follow grimjacks suggestions (except I agree V needs to die though, but my reasons are that I don’t want to see him subjected to villain decay because he’s awesome).

Thanks for all your hard work up and the great story. You’re a talented writer and artist.

I have a feeling that it will be Sydney…. But not her ‘powers’ or her skills, or ‘comic knowledge’ or anything like that… It will be Sydney being Sydney. She has derailed a ‘mad’ from Max, she has smacked Math in the moosh, caught the teleporter with a smack, etc… etc… etc… How do you defuse a violent junky? MAKE HIM LAUGH!! ‘V’ is adding lessons with the beatings he is hanging out… Max has tried a few times to teach Sydney and been frustrated by her “ADHD”, hyperactivity, weird outlook on the world. Sydney’s interview, her activities at the press conference.. her power was almost an afterthought… (And lets be frank here… this is basically a funny book.)

To be fair, I’ve never seen a good comedy that didn’t have at least some dramatic moments, and any drama that doesn’t have its share of laughs quickly descends into Darkness Induced Audience Apathy. So far, I think the comic has struck a good balance.

Also, “ka-pants” was in comic #268, and this is comic #274. Have some patience, man.

Oh I’m definitely becoming more and more apathetic as this fight progresses. I was really hoping to see a comic where there are women who do what men do every other comic in paperback comics, instead of being there to be beaten or damsels in distress or ‘support’ (or are relegated to non-physical powers to prove their worth). It just would have been nice, and the comic (and especially Maxima) are feeling totally ruined at this point, and I’m not optimistic about it changing. The comic has become just about Vehemence being badass, and he’s not a particularly funny or endearing or even interesting character.

I’m… really happy Vehemence was just kidding. That was just absurdly stupid )=
Even though he’s still going to kill Maxima. I hope Halo comes up with a better plan than just pulling him off with the lighthook. Like, that whole “shove it into his mouth and make him choke” thing would be nice.

To me, it seems something similar to the Hulk comics in that a foe as physically unstoppable as the Hulk (or V in this case) requires someone on the team who can perform mental attacks. The Hulk was weak to those (mind control, etc). While V is obviously beating them physically, a psionic attack may prove more fruitful for shutting him down. Not a Deus Ex Machina (or Maxima), but a legitimate weakness that can be utilized (as has been seen before in many Supers comics across the Marvel and DC universes). V has been reinforcing his strengths without labeling his own weaknesses (a good strategy). Dabbler seems the only one who may be capable of providng such an attack due to her alien/succubus heritage. At least, this seems to be a more realistic approach to shutting him down than with physical force.

Actually Hulks only comparatively weak against mental attacks. That is to say his resistance to them while actually quite high is far lower than his resistance to other forms of attack. When mental attacks have been used successfully on the Hulk it’s generally a fairly powerful telepath and even then it takes a lot concentration to maintain any level of control.

Yeah, the trick with that is the telepath first has to get through Hulk’s sheer anger & rage before accomplishing anything. The anger is his strength & his resistance. Even a non-telepath can get through Hulk’s anger though…Quite a few times, all it took was someone obviously non-threathening just talked to him.

Hi David, I love your Webcomic. It has nice balance of comedy and action with epic art.

I’m glad our lead Halo isn’t stealing the show, that she has long time to go before being as epic as her season super hero counter-parts. I’m looking forward to your comics continuation through current reveal gallery of super villians you’ve exposed to us when Max made her statement on television.

As side note I found it amusing that Vehemence caused riot at corn of Wall St/Sesame St with human Ernie and Burt marching along Vehemence. lol.

Actually, pretty established and non-deus solution is being hinted right in this page. You are just too focused on beating him, and you can’t see any not-out-of-ass solution to do that (with which I may agree, there may be none at this point). But beating him is not an option. If nothing else, author hinted that he wants him to be recurring villain. If he is beaten, ARCHON will make damn sure he can’t get away easily, they are not that stupid. Maybe prison colony on the moon, but they WILL come up with something.

What I see happening in next page or two: Maxima suddenly shifts away from armor. Either to flight (less probable), or grabs his fingers that are trying to crush her and switch to full strength (opponent strength won’t do you much harm you can apply enough of counter strength at the right spot). It’s will be dangerous game, but between being killed for sure and trying something desperate… With full strength and the leverage of foot on V’s face, she will get free. V knows that that it’s game over at that point, he revealed most of his powers and made sure the heroes know that non-lethal way to end this fight is not an option. With Maxima flying out of his reach and going for kill, she can blast him with something he can’t soak. So he shows us one last “power to burn” trick and teleports away, possibly just milliseconds before he would be reduced to atoms (we may get to see him after the teleport with serious burns/missing body parts, and comment from him about how regenerating from that cost him most of his powertoburn. But not necessarily). Fight done, no need for unknown orbs or other nonestablished power.

In next encounter, he won’t be so buffed up, so he will stay credible threat for smaller teams, author will just have to make sure Maxima is busy elsewhere. Or he will come up with another clever way to power up before the fight.

We’ll see. From how DaveB’s overpowered him, I’m just getting less and less hopeful for any sort of non-deus method of winning. I agree with the last paragraph about the only way I can think of that he’d be a good recurring character. I just can’t see Maxima ever finding out he’s popped up and not immediately going to where he is for a kill shot though.

Also, for someone who’s using most of his power burn, he doesnt seem to be showing it at all judging from how he’s still strong enough to be choking Maxima, electrocuting her, while using a wall of invisible force which isnt using kinetic energy somehow despite how ‘force’ works in physics, while still being planted to the ground with magical mystical ‘why the hell not’ glyphs around his feet, while regenerated. You’d think if he was ‘burning his energy off’ he wouldnt be able to keep all of this going at the same time still.

The size/strength buff is just that, a buff. Once it’s in place it should take minimal to no energy to maintain, that all went into the increases.

The electricity generation, now that’s using energy, but probably not at a great amount. He’s not throwing Thor sized lightning bolts, just electric chair voltage.

Wall of force, that’s a one shot. Nice drain, but over and done with. And while Anvil did get knocked back, who says she absorbed nothing out of it?

And as for his ground grabbing/anti-knockback glyphs, I so don’t see them in panel, so I think now he’s just plain too heavy for the lighthook to pick up, and Maxi is in defense mode, so she’s not trying to pick him up any more.

So, all in all, doesn’t look like a lot of excess fuel burning going on to me.

Wait I just remembered Archon has that healing powered nurse person! and Healing is like Reverse Violence! Its up to Super Powered Doctor Nurse to save the day by healing everyone here and the environment as well! That should take V down a few notches

i have no idea if this was thought up before, and i have no intention of going back and reading the thousands of posts before, but i had the strangest thought about Sydney’s orbs that she doesn’t know how to use. what if they can only be used by her telepresence form? i’m not going to try and figure out what they may or may not do because the list is just far too long for that. what i do know is that she said she could only use the orbs with her hands…but she didn’t show that she tried to use them with her telepresence form. what it did show was her telepresence form holding 1 orb already, the one that gives her truesight and telepresence, but that form still had a free hand. i know she said she can’t touch…but it doesn’t show her attempting to touch one of the other orbs

Even if used as a PPO mental attack, if used in this particular fight, without any buildup, foreshadowing, checkov’s gun, etc, one of her unknown orbs suddenly being a mental attack that Sydney suddenly knows how to use would still be pretty deus-ex-machina-ish. Even if used by holo sydney.

I just think the idea that one or both of the other orbs might be useable only via the yellow comm/telepresence orb would be a neat idea in general principle, eventually. It would explain, for example, why Sydney has not been able to figure out what they do, if she never thought to use one of them in conjunction with the yellow orb, or if that orphan node she used in the upgrade was needed in order to make a combo of the yellow orb + one or both of the unknown orbs useful.

I think miraculously using an unknown orb to save the day would be a bit of a cop-out. This is day one for Halo and to assume she can suddenly come up with an unknown power that can stop an uber-powered super would be lazy writing. I am sure that Dave has a clever and unexpected conclusion to this epic battle.

My money is that Arianna comes in and diffused the situation by becoming his PR manager. The calming effect will totally kill his aggro.

But Oscar LIKES living in a trash can. He LIKES collecting the little broken doo-dads wrapped in 3-day old diapers. And people are giving him this stuff for FREE! What does he need money for? Why would he mess up his own personal “status quo” for something like class warfare?
O.o

If he’s not participating in a riot, but it happens to be happening close by, Oscar is just as likely to complain that the noise is keeping him awake. It’s not the idea of class warfare that Oscar likes & it’s not the rioting that he would like…He likes to complain about everything, so he’ll complain about those too.

You know, I’ve re-read once or twice (and I’m sure I’ll come back to numerous times) but every time I see Vehemence in a suit, I just think of Terry Pratchett and his take on Trolls who wear suits and that how despite being very well tailored, they still appear to be wearing very poor fitting suits. Although his does look well tailored, so I would image he either a.) Learned his size and mastered the art of altercation long ago or b.) Has a very understanding (and competent) tailor.

Even with expensive tailoring service, some guys will always look like an overstuffed couch. These are the kind of guys that mostly *prove* how hard it is to get their bods into a suit in the first place.

If I remember correctly, Maxima lectured Sydney on the foolishness of challenging an opponent and then immediately proclaiming victory. Maxima has proceeded to do this on multiple occasions; indirectly via the press conference, and again right before they engage Vehemence. (Possibly other times as well, I used the word “multiple” because it’s technically correct but mostly because it sounds better than “twice.”) Max has exhibited overconfidence to the point of hubris and arrogance. Not that it’s unjustified, but coupled with her big speech during the untankenating creates irony. She described how these potential villains might have been the most powerful person they’ve ever met, but she promises that ARCHON is more powerful. Given this, she assumes heavily that they, and more specifically she are/is more powerful than anyone else out there.

I like Max. She “used to be sort of a nerd,” which is as endearing as the semi-bashful way in which she says it. She’s strong. She’s snarky. She’s funny. She has established values. But I feel like this fight might be an important character development for her. Might she develop self-confidence issues after this? Not openly, and she would never admit it, but how would it subconsciously affect her behavior? Would she lose confidence in her ability to command? She is in danger, yes, but doubtless she has been so before. But her overconfidence has exposed Sydney, a raw recruit, to very serious potential harm, and it seems to me that it is only Vehemence’s peculiarities that would be protecting her. (That and the shield. But her shield doesn’t protect against psychological damage. Can you imagine how seeing Maxima killed might affect Sydney?)

An important thing to note is that we’re all assuming that everything Vehemence tells us is true. The previous page illustrated (haha) that as intelligent and well-mannered as he is, he doesn’t always get it right. It might be some unwritten rule of comics that characters can’t lie to the audience, but then V isn’t really afraid to break the rules either. He seems invincible, but that’e only if we assume everything he’s told us is true.

When V revealed the source of his power Max instantly attacked him, while Sydney was warning her not to–and she used just enough violence to power him way up, just not enough to kill him while she had the chance, which she forfeited with her own seriously ill considered attack. Max may be great tactician against relative punks, but against V she hasn’t even considered that he’s something new, whereas Sydney did.

I think SisterGypsy’s point is if you have a person who thrives on violence, and they become horny as well, they’re going to naturally violently have sex with someone else, even if other people also were horny. Which would be rape. Which would be both extremely offensive and not at all funny in the slightest (even if it wasnt your intent to imply that, she’s pointing out what the combination of horny + violent means and why horny is not the opposite of violent, and why horny would not -negate- violence, it would worsen it).

I wonder if For Whom The Bell Toll’s Powers will work even if he is unconscious. Wonder what would happen if Sydney tossed him at V from behind and V tried to swat him away. Would his Nemesis power activate? Just a thought.

I am thinking one of those unknown orbs might be a telepathic/tek/orb, but since its might have to be physically planted on his forehead sorta like mind door way if you ever played psychonauts ie that the kid has to concentrate to enter the targets mind i think that using one of the orbs like that would be worth the gags to see sydney enter v mind to attempt to take control of v and make him catatonic or induce him to be thinking that he 3 years old or something to that degree

But again she has to keep the orb connected between both there heads to enter his head, so if there way to make him distracted long enough to plant the orb any where near the top or behind his head while she enters his mind could be death to her if she cant keep the link to his to her mind

I was just assuming that Someone was of the tribe of readers that wanted to raise Atlantis from the depths so that we could all take tours and see the unspeakable horror and alien geography that lies beneath the ocean’s surface…

That’s true- and I do believe you are the first to suggest that. I think it would still come off a bit like, frankly, like the way Vehemence has been developing powers for no reason except “because”, but at least it’s a new suggestion. And you’re right, it isn’t exactly the same as asking for Sydney to manifest a forcefield without her inside it in a way that is inconsistent with canon; it suggests a canon explanation that might be plausible.

I wonder if Vehemence can withstand being skewered by the molestorb. Right through the digestive system, ass-first, then straighten the tentacle or better yet curl it around on itself like a spring. It’s hard to be an evil badass when you’re corkscrewed on an energy tentacle.

There has been speculation that Big V is older than he appears. While he looks (to me) like a guy in his mid to late 30s, he makes reference to powering up from the LA Race Riots 40-ish years ago. So maybe something about his powers prolongs his life, and maybe he is over 80 years old!

I’m also going to guess he was in Japan during Hiroshima, and Normandy during D-Day, as well as the Battle of Gettysburg and the Pearl Harbor attack (at this rate I’m sure he’ll say he actually orchestrated that as well), the French Revolution, and the bombing of both Dresden and London (not like he bothers to care whether it’s violence by Allies or Axis, it all powers him)… all of which had so much violence that it has spanned the decades for his powers. And honestly, wars are violent so why wouldnt he do war. The battles and events I just mentioned are some of the most violent events in recent world history in the last 200 years.

It’s alarming that most want to use the molestorb to do something very unsavory to V.
If the Molestorb is a possible unbreakable rope able to grow to any size and shape, Sydney is just applying it wrong.
Serendipity tumbleweed knot encompassing all of V, and since it has no limit that we know of, could be a couple of mile radius and collapse it, no matter how fast, he would get tangled and his strength would go against the rope, not in Sydney as a fulcrum. That would contain him. What to do afterwards…that can be a little trickier without deadly force…If he can teleport, game over.

It just seems like he conveniently had every power/buff/spell for any situation.
It would have been better if he just had a fairly basic set of powers, but used them in a very creative and unorthodox way.

The Hulk can be a threat without having any powers more than Strength, invulnerability, and quickened healing. I don’t see anything creative about Vehemence anymore, even if I did at the initial ‘reveal’ of what his power is.

I mean the comic is becoming more ‘The Vehemence Mega-Multi-Power Hour’ than ‘Grrlpower.’

We get it. He’s tough. I wish he’d stop be shown as unbeatable in every conceivable way. And for gods sake, the idea of him being a recurring character is just groan-worthy, not intimidating. I feel like he’s an AWFUL character now. A horribly broken, overpowered mess of an awful character (who is far too smart to ever fight before being strong enough to already make violence on a colossal scale) created solely to show that the toughest person on the ArcSwat team is nothing compared to the new villain.

What’s been tried that’s new? I mean, really. Anvil tried to pound him, Maxima tried to pound him, then she tried to pound him harder, then she tried to pound him with a bigger hammer (pylon). Finally she tries to blast parts of him off. Anyone else see a pattern of behavior here?

Oh, yeah, she tried to pick him up after he doubles in size and magnitude of power. Almost forgot that. Real deviation from the theme. When it comes down to it, Max is a hammer, and every problem she sees is a nail to be driven.

1)They tried plenty of other ways of beating him. It just that he seems to have a power/buff/spell, perfectly tailored to any and all other kinds of tactics they use.
Just pummeling him(or blowing his head off) seems to be the best strategy at this moment, that doesn’t give him an immediate power bost.

2)They mostly tried pummeling because it was the most practical and nonlethal way of beating him.

3)And what you’ve said still doesn’t make his apparent ability to counter ANY tactics they try use on him any less boring.

1) Dabbler tried a sleep spell. He made his resist magic roll. Sue him.
He’s shown one power, one!, to absorb vehemic energy. One buff, he got bigger and stronger (ok, 2 if you’re picky). Let’s see now, Summon Pants, there’s a real fight changer for ya. Regeneration Lvl 2, natural spell selection for a brawling mage. Anti-knockback Lvl 3 (stick to ground), again natural selection for a brawler to have in his pocket. Cast Lightning Lvl 1, pretty standard range attack. And that’s it! Oh yeah, perfectly tailored for any and all eventualities! And, please, pummeling is the surest way to give him an immediate power up.

2) And when pummeling doesn’t work, let’s pummel him some more!

3) Think I took care of this one in #1. Except to say they’ve only used two tactics: Hit him hard, then hit him harder! Sydney’s pickup attempt with the lighthook doesn’t really count.

Yes anifreik, we get it. You don’t like Max as a character and want V to teach her a lesson in humility. Enough of that already. Such selective, semi-amnesiatic memory though when trying to support your view.

Each time they try something new, he develops a new power to negate the tactic. So don’t tell me they havent tried something new. I call BS on that. They’ve tried multiple things. Aside from throwing Death Toll at him repeatedly, there’s nothing that works except for ‘run away’ – oh yeah, that make for a great comic. Bad guy arrives, shows he’s tough, heroes run away. Brilliant idea for a comic.

Then again with people trying to twist reality into something where ‘Vehemence is actually not a bad person who just feeds on violence’ I’m not surprised that the same people would also twist their reality to see Arcswat as not trying anything except punch, punch, then punch some more.
Of course there’s also the repeated people saying how they should combat violence with lust (which then gets comments of basically how ‘he’d impale her’ and a lot of hur hurs about that – rape humor isnt especially funny, sorry… or violence with healing (how the heck that’s supposed to work is beyond me). Or with tickling – cmon already, please everyone stop saying they must combat V by hugging him or tickling him :/

I wish DaveB had stuck with his original idea instead of this godawful Vehemence new power from vehemic energy every page idea. It would have been so much more in keeping with the idea of ‘girl power’ as a major thing in the comic. Right now it’s just ‘girl pathetically useless power.’ Because, apparently, there was a concern that if Vehemence got taken down decisively, people would complain about that.

Plus to people who say ‘oh but he’s burning off his power when he does that, so it’s only a one time thing’ – in WHAT comic has V been shown to be actually BURNING OFF POWER? Every single comic he just gets stronger and stronger and more powers – that’s not burning stuff off.

Finally, Vehemence is not a good person. He’s not a ‘not bad’ person. He isnt doing this because he needs violence to survive. He isnt a good person with an evil power. He’s an evil person with an evil power. Lets assume even, for the moment, that he WAS someone who just had an evil power but was good…. he could have just JOINED ARC SWAT WITHOUT DOING ALL THIS.

You’re wrong, again, I actually like Max. When she’s being a competent Super and military Commanding Officer. Not so much when she’s being a Hammer.

So, I say again, I don’t see where he’s doing a lot of new stuff. He’s big, strong, intelligent, prepared for the fight, and acting, not reacting. And my last thing, “Just because you are Bad Guy, does not mean you are bad guy.

P.S. And whether you realize it or not, you really are pushing for DaveB to write the book you want to read, rather than the one he wants to write.

So, your just going to generalize all tactics that involve physical force as the same thing?
No, that isn’t how a tactics are categorized.

Fact of the matter is, they have tried several different tactics.
And each and every time they have he as either been, conveniently immune, developed a new power, developed a new buff, cast a new spell, not cared, and/or has just made him stronger.(i.e. blowing off his arm.)

Here’s what he really used:
1) Toughness
2) Magic Anti-Get-Picked-Up-Glyphs-Forming-Around-His-Feet
3) Growth
4) INCREASED Invulnerability (magnitudes more than he was even at initially, when he considered the first bullet to be a ‘poke’ in the eye – the second one is superman level – from the crappy superman returns movie too)
5) Speed (he got up before they even had a chance to do anything with him down)
6) Increased Invulnerability + strength even before the Maxima stuff
7) Increased Invulnerability (even before the Maxima stuff)
8) Increased Strength (now able to lift over 75 tons and knock out he second strongest ArcSwat with one punch before Maxima was even involved)
9) Intelligence and Fighting skill
10) Friggin Automatic Regeneration + Mega-Increased Strength+ Mega-increased Invulnerability
11) – I also forgot that in response to Anvil’s attempt, the ‘Force-based non-kinetic force push which makes no sense but screw it he’s awesome so let him do a force push that doesnt involve kinetic force somehow’

And it hardly looks like you’re a fan of Max, considering how much you like seeing Vehemence make her into his punching bag toy. Plus make the incredibly obtuse statement that Vehemence is not a bad guy. Feels more like latent mysogyny.

Get this straight. Vehemence is a bad guy. He orchestrated this. He exacerbated this. He made the first strike physically. Three times he made the first strike physically, in fact. And no quoting Wreck it Ralph. He’s not ‘just doing a job.’ He’s trying to cause as much mayhem and violence and chaos as possible. That’s evil. He’s not even doing it to just survive, or to try to get back to normal (like Clayface) or to save someone he loves (like Mr. Freeze), or doing it despite his attempt to just live (Blight) – he’s doing it to be chaotic and evil. He literally is the type of person who wakes up and thinks ‘how much misery and chaos and violence can I cause today’ – HOW THE HELL IS THAT A GOOD PERSON – this is not Wreck it Ralph where they’re doing it as a necessary function to keep some game going (which keeps everyone alive).

Btw, I’m very curious at this point to know what sort of strategy you would have used to BEAT him, given what they did and did not know at various points in time in this fight. I doubt you have any good answers for that, since you adore having an unbeatable deus-ex-machina-walking ultimate villain as the first friggin arch villain they ever face. Who has Maxima beaten at all? Low level nobodies? Normal non-powered bank robbers who werent even actually bank robbers and were just Achilles and Amorphous in disguise?

They try mulitiple tactics of almost every conceivable type, and each one is conveniently negated by either him becoming too strong, too invulnerable, or too ‘I’m making up powers on the spot to counter you’ – which is the one which REALLY has gotten annoying.

PS – Gosh, for me to think a good story should involve the protagonists with good backstories and teamwork being able to win against the overpowered, poorly written antagonist who relies entirely on deus ex machina. Again, read what DaveB has said. His initial idea was to do EXACTLY the former, but he was concerned about people (like you) complaining about THAT. Boring story now, and boring having to counter what you’re saying when you selectively ignore what’s happening in the story as long as it means Maxima gets put in her place

Really? The only reaction I’ve seen it pull out of Maxima is one grunt. She armored up out of reflex, not knowing the magnitude of the incoming attack. Good strategy, but now she’s pinned in a choke hold, and that’s (IMHO) what’s keeping her in that state. Without being able to redistribute her powers back to the “Golden Triangle”, she simply doesn’t currently have the power available to break free.

And that’s all the bandwidth I’m going to waste arguing somantics with a person who has their knickers in a knot just because their favorite heroine is getting a few well deserved dents in her gold plated pride.

Actually my favorite character is Sydney. But I like that Maxima was a female superstrong character who wasnt going to be made a damsel in distress. But now she is, to the delight of latent mysogynists. Wouldnt want to challenge any male security by having a strong female archetype who doesnt shy away from the fact that she is one (like Thor doesnt, or Hulk doesnt, or Silver Surfer doesnt, or Superman doesnt, or any number of other male superpowered characters don’t. The nerve of having a female character who actually is the most powerful super in a comic universe! And she’s a feminist!

Yeah, she definitely needs to be knocked down a few pegs to meet your view of what a female superhero should be. Maybe we can get some male superhero to help save her. Or at least another female superheroine who doesnt rely on strength and fighting skill (but lets not have them actually beat him because after all, they are still women and certainly a woman shouldnt be the pinnacle of power in a comic called GRRLPOWER – better wreck the entire potential reputation before they start getting a fan following among female comic readers)

Thank you, anifreik, o male comic book reader! Your avatar of the thong-wearing splayed woman leading to a link of girls in bondage situation has truly shown me the light!

My avatar, indeed of a thong wearing woman, leads to my blog, where I release free english scanlations of the Japanese manga “Nana to Kaoru”. (My avatar, btw, is of Nana) It is a romantic comedy manga using bondage as the “hook” to bring two childhood friends together. Situations of the comedy, ecchi, and romantic genres ensue. I am quite proud of my interest in it, as well as my work on it. I’m the current editor in chief and typesetter. Links to download the earlier chapters not found on my blog will be provided for the asking.

*rubs her temples* Yes. Of course. Bondage is quite empowering to women. Not at all demeaning in the least. Definitely does not show a latent mysogynistic view compounded by you loving seeing a musclebound man beating down the supposedly ‘strongest super’ who happens to be a woman. Definitely doesnt support the idea that there’s a large audience of male comic book readers who can’t handle physically strong female protagonists if they might outshine the males. That definitely doesnt show a large reason that comics invariably put the women in those types of losing situations in order to pander (hey… my name!) to that audience for fear of offending them.

Indeed it is. Firstly, not all Dominants are men. Secondly, the submissive actually holds all the cards in a real BDSM relationship. They are the ones who voluntarily give up their “power” and are the only ones with the ability to take it back. Glad you a showing a capacity to learn.

Yeah, yet you point out ‘well not all dominants are male’
Btw, the point I was making (which you’ve obviously forgotten at this point) is that taking the strongest female character and making sure she’s beaten down, then celebrating that fact is the type of thing a mysogynist likes.

Then you claimed how you werent a mysogynist. Then I pointed out the links to your bondage fantasy art. Which IS very mysogynistic. Which was, I’m assuming, written by a man, just like when Wonder Woman used to be into not only bondage, but enslaving other women. Because she WAS created by a guy who was VERY mysogynistic and into BDSM. So yes, like many male comic book readers who comic book authors have to pander to to fear of chauvanistic-based nerd rage, the total degradation of Maxima’s reputation and status as ‘strongest super’ is meant to cater to mysogynists.

I’m su amused that you defend female bondage as not being so… yeah right. because that makes subjugating women so much less mysogynistic.

Again, your method of interpreting this fight seems to be to ignore what actually happens in order to minimize what V does. He’s using electricity powerful enough to be hurting Maxima when her power distribution is ENTIRELY put into Armor. And you’re calling it a level 1 lightning or level 3 shocking grasp or whatever. Thank goodness I don’t have you in my gaming groups or have me RPing in yours.

In regards to the ‘PS’ – I’m simply stating that DaveB, by his own admission, changed his original idea for the story from Vehemence being someone who relied on just being stronger who gets beaten by Maxima to the ‘powers out of his ass’ version we see now because he was concerned about people complainint about Maxima being too powerful. I wish he had gone with his INITIAL instinct.

Everyone is getting all bent out of shape over how overpowered Vehemence seems to be, but lets not forget that Dabbler has displayed a wide range of powers. Since V is a user of energy on a similar spectrum as Dabbler’s, wouldn’t if follow that he could manipulate his in a similar fashion, be a little more flexible than your traditional “powered” folks? And Dabbler did say that had the fight been an orgy (I shudder to think) she would “have enough power to take the whole team with both hands tied behind [her] back.” So really, is it that broken? We’ve just seen a villain masterfully maneuver a team of supers into a position where he has all the advantages. Granted, his power set is awesome, but I don’t think it’s an unreasonable situation given the variables presented.

It seems to me that their powers seem based on the manipulation of energy. If anyone has read the Dresden Files, then I think this is a similar situation. Dabbler and V learned how to manipulate the energy they absorb in lots of different ways, and thusly they are able to accomplish greater and more varied feats with it. The more experience you have, so to say, the more powerful you are, because you understand the nature of the forces you are working with and can manipulate them more accurately so as to achieve the desired effect.

The difference being Dabbler at least doesnt generate new powers out of nowhere. And the powers she does have seem to be able to be resisted, and are not inherently DANGEROUS powers that can kill. Most of what she has are actually from items, which have backstory to them, or from super-science. Plus she’s not ‘the best’ in anything – she’s good in a LOT of things. Jill of all trades, master of none sort of thing.

Wonder why she had to have a cybernetic arm and eye. She should have just taken a page from Vehemence’s powermax book and just have orgies continuously until her arm and eye regenerated on their own with maybe something like mind blanking in the eye and touch-based orgasms until the person dies in the arm.

Point of fact, Dabbler has generated powers out of nowhere, so to speak. Way, waaaay back in the ballroom interview, she created a shield to block Maxima’s attack, having given no indication of that ability previously. Not to mention the Blink spell or that Sleep spell she used. Not to mention, being a tinkerer, she has access to abilities via gadgets and the like that could be situationally perfect. Props to Dave for not having her pull out a “de-violence-izer” or a “Ghandi-tron.” (Or more realistically, I suppose something like a delta-wave inducer. I’ve seen that on Star Trek.)

As for the cybernetic eye and arm, well, she’s already shown one advantage that comes with having the borg arm (that being the teleporter) and presumably has some similar reason to keep the eye as it is. Plus, I think she’s just weird like that.

Dabbler may not pull a new power out of her pants every other page, but then, she hasn’t been present at a 50-person orgy in the way that Vehemence has been very obviously present for this catastrophically violent fight. And it’s easy to be “best” at something when you’re given an overwhelming amount of power.

Besides, we have been given an introduction to Dabbler. We are aware of her capabilities much more so than we are aware of V’s. (Well, before the fight started anyway) So quite naturally anything V pulls out is going to be new, and if it’s powerful, then it will be more of a shock.

Pander, don’t get me wrong, I like a good debate, and you seem to be playing Devil’s Advocate for a lot of folks, which can be great for the discussion. But you seem really determined to dislike Vehemence, and I wonder if that isn’t influencing your views. Maxima has been placed in an extraordinarily difficult situation. She’s come up against a very strong male antagonist, and is being overpowered by him, which can’t be doing anything good for her almost-misandry. A heroine, any character really, without a challenge to overcome makes for a less-than-compelling story. The fact that V is a man, and a rather polite one at that, might force Max to reexamine her attitude towards men. Or it might not. The point is, we don’t know. This is Dave’s comic, and he seems to know what he’s doing. Or at least he’s willing to put in most of the time he has to creating this comic. So why not let him create the story, and not anticipate all the terrible decisions he might make?

Also there’s the difference that it’s a lot harder to get a 50 person mass orgy going than a big fight going. Plus it would never happen in the first place since this is not an X-rated comic. Next there should be a thing where Maxima becomes an innate user of ‘survival energy’ so that every time she survives something Vehemence does, she gains her own additional power plus gets more powerful as well.

Yes, because we should encourage to DaveB to write that ArcSWAT supports mass rape- which is what it would be, incidentally, because a succubus’s powers do not create love, they force lust, which is a lot like a date-rape drug.

You know, as sarcasm is conveyed mostly through tone of voice or body language, it mystifies me how you expect anyone to perceive your sarcasm in these comments without some kind of written indication.

Think of all the chafing. Also, on a more serious note, orgy then fight does not result in more orgy, unless you get into the whole rape business which is really not something you’d ever want to have, I’d hope.

You know, it would be pretty funny if Sydney just suffocated him with the lighthook. Vehemence’s won’t shut up- he just keeps talking. So, while his mouth is open, lighthook down his windpipe. He can’t breath, and isn’t much threat while suffocating. He passes out from lack of oxygen, fight over.

That said, it’s been a good fight so far. I’m really enjoying the comic, and Max remains my favorite character in it.

Or, since that’s a violent act, he would spontaneously gain the power to not need to breathe, or to teleport, or would pull the lighthook out of his mouth and yank it forward pulling Sydney forward so we can see more of how awesome Vehemence is (sarcasm). Not to mention Sydney’s already shown that she doesnt exactly have the stomach to do something like that.

A person makes a new power every update to counter any attack or tactic used against him, one starts realizing there’s no reason he can’t keep on doing that. Because this ‘power to burn’ doesnt seem to be running out or even slowing down.

New power every update. I’m predicting he’ll keep doing that. I’m predicting next update he’ll do it again. I’d love to see me proven wrong. I’m not whining. I’m commenting. It’s been months of this – I like the comic but it’s becoming extremely boring because of this one character and this lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng drawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn out fight.

I disagree that this has been a “good fight so far,” What it has been is an excuse to slap Maxima around because DaveB was afraid that more people would be petty about her putting him down decisively than would be petty about Vehemence’s completely simple (as in simpleton) motivations, his abundance of utterly unreasonable powers (and his ability to summon them, apparently at will), and the erosion of Maxima’s reputation before she’s even had a chance to demonstrate why she earned it within the context of the comic.

Yes, I’m aware you agree. I read all four pages before commenting. You’ve both made it abundantly clear what your opinions are. They are not bad opinions, though I disagree with them. What makes me observe it as whining in Pander’s case is the repetition, posting basically the same thing over, and over, and over, as if saying it more makes the opinion more valid. It does not. You, whisakedjak, haven’t quite reached that level yet, though it’s getting there.

Snort. Okay. I’m getting there. Incidentally, attacking a person’s opinion is not whining. Attacking a person (ie, calling a person a whiner and implying that, by disagreeing with you further, I am too) is an ad hominem argument and a logical fallacy.

You say you disagree and that you think this fight has been a “good fight so far”- can you explain in what way this fight has actually been good? I would like to have a reason to not feel betrayed, here; maybe you can provide it.

I didn’t say attacking a person’s opinion was whining. I said repeating the same thing over and over and over was whining, which it is. Your strawman does not apply.

I think it’s been a good fight so far because I enjoyed it. There’s been some back and forth, some unexpected turns, and now the villain has our hero on the ropes. I plan to eagerly check back Monday to see what happened next.

As far as you feeling “betrayed,” I hope you’ll forgive me for saying I don’t really care. It is not my job to make you like the comic. Indeed, despite you saying you’d like a reason not to feel that way, based on what I’ve read thus far, I seriously doubt you can be swayed from your present opinion and I have no particular reason to spend my time trying to make the horse drink.

I absolutely forgive you for not caring; I sincerely hope you will do the same when I don’t give a rat’s hind quarters about your feelings, either.

Perhaps you are not aware, but telling someone that their opinions are whining is the same as calling them a whiner. Yes, Pander has made similar arguments more than once; they have been refutations to similar arguments made by other people. If more people were inclined to (as you claim to have done) read everything that everyone else has posted, perhaps this wouldn’t seem so repetitive to you.

If that upsets you, feel free to not read any further. Pander has made absolutely valid arguments regarding both her issues with the way this fight has gone and the way it looks as if it will have to be concluded. I feel that both Pander and I have as much right as all of the other commenters to express our opinions. The fact that our opinions differ from yours does not invalidate them; the fact that they are repeated does not invalidate them; the fact that you seem incapable of answering them, however, pretty much does invalidate your arguments.

Pfft. Invalidates my arguments? What arguments? The non-existent ones I didn’t make, since I declined to argue with you about it? Thank you for proving my point about the futility of trying to change your mind, though.

I find it pretty hilarious that you made a giant speech at the end about how valid your opinions are when I already acknowledged that there was nothing wrong with them in and of themselves. All I’ve objected to so far is Pander’s (and to a lesser extent your) need to reiterate your displeasure by responding with basically the same post to every single person who makes their own remarks.

As far as you not caring what I think, my only response is…okay? My original post was directed towards the author. Your caring is not needed, requested, or required.

This conversation appears to have reached the end of its possibilities. I leave the last word, should you choose to take it, to you.

Oh- and your argument that this is a “good fight”- I’m curious how this is a good fight in any narrative sense.

You were the one who said it was a good fight- those were your words. I’m asking you to back that up. So far, you’ve said that it’s a good fight in pretty much the same way that Dogs Playing Poker is good art.

@whisakedjak I agree with you so much on what has happened to Max. It saddens me to see her entire intro has just become garbage and lies. I can’t even have the hope that Max dies in this fight because it is a flashback. We never got to see the strong, confident, competent leader Max was supposed to be.

Vehemence powered up from a fifty-person superhero brawl and STILL couldn’t stand up to Max when she first dropped down. Or for some time after. It took him THIS long to be able to overpower her, and all he can even manage right now is just to keep her pinned.

Never mind the fact that by the time she dropped down, he was EASILY knocking the rest of the Archons aside, and she didn’t yet know that his power level went up when he was attacked…

If you seriously think she’s being portrayed as weak here, we have entirely different definitions of the word.

She is being represented as someone who has no idea how to handle herself in a super battle. All the things said about how she has been in war and taken down these other supers is all just a bunch of bragging. She was said to be a strong, competent, confident leader, but all that is out the window since Periwinkle Butt Sniffer came on the scene.

A leader’s strength is far more than muscle, but she doesn’t show that strength. That is what saddens me. You seem to be talking about her muscles, I am talking about her character.

Apparently I can’t reply to you, SisterGypsy, so I guess I’ll… reply to myself?

Sure.

In any case I don’t see how it turns her previous experiences into simple bragging. Her powerset alone means she would rarely, if ever, need to actually need to plot out an opponent’s weaknesses then find a way to exploit them. She’s used to being able to just win any battle ever through sheer brute force.

Death Toll’s power surprised everyone. Not even his own side seemed to know what he was capable of. And it’s the same with Vehemence, only worse, because Dabbler knew of that power and had NEVER heard of a human with it. The Archons got hit with one power that was completely unexpected, and one that SHOULD have been impossible.

If Max had immediately been ready to handle such threats after such a long time being so overpowered compared to everyone else… well, again, it just makes her TOO powerful. She’s got to have some flaws to keep her off the extreme end of the Mary Sue spectrum… cockiness and not being in the habit of having to worry about other supers are actually pretty valid ones.

You are sort of right and sort of wrong. While it is true that it shouldn’t turn all of the previous hype into empty hot air, the fact is that narrative convention says that it does. Narrative convention exists for a reason, not least of which is that it allows us to make sense of a story and, by extension, the universe. Breaking narrative convention tends to feel forced and unsatisfying, and should only be done very, very carefully.

Whisakedjak Is right, in that we have never seen Maxima show the leadership and competence on the battlefield. Leaders have to be able to adapt and not just force a solution. What you are saying would make Maxima a great private, but not a leader.

As to your calling Maxima a Mary Sue. A real leader that does what they are supposed to will be loved and followed, that is what makes them a leader. Do they have faults yes. Did Maxima have faults before this, yes (she had anger issues and even as you said some cockiness). But, turning her into this incompetent, worthless thing that has to be saved repeatedly has destroyed any credibility her statements at the press conference had. Mary Sues are loved by all and can do no wrong, but so many seem to just want to hang that title on any female character that is strong, confident and competent. Max was no Mary Sue. The bad guys didn’t love her, she did some things just to piss off Arianna and she could be shown to make mistakes (like blowing up a mosque or even destroying the construction site with Vehemence).

I don’t think Maxima comes off as stupid, just unprepared. I’m pretty sure the amount of supers at her level can be counted on one hand. She was trying to follow orders, limit damage and casualties things a commander does. She’s been issueing commands, identifying threats, and re-directing troops to back up teammates. Vehemence just played her like he did everybody. Nobody knew him or what he could do and the element of surprise is more powerful than any super. If anyone looks bad its Arc for having shitty intel. I think Maxima’s folley was trying to make this fight a cautionary tale and understandably if foolishly believing she was the strongest person in the room.

I think Vehemence could have been better portrayed as a super who is simply more powerful than Maxima, with no need to resort to the whole “You just keep powering me up, and so I just keep getting stronger and more able to spawn new powers” theme.

Vehemence didn’t need to be the guy who resolves that he has to kill Maxima because if they meet when he isn’t powered up and she decides to go for the kill he is screwed. He could simply be too strong for her to one-shot as a baseline, leaving it up to the team to find a weakness or a strategy and use that to defeat him or at least make him to the typical villainous “flee to fight again another day” routine.

It’s probably been said already, but I was starting to think the fight was getting a little long…until I read it all at once. It’s actually a lot smoother than I thought. I guess the difference is you can read a twenty page fight in ten minutes but if you read it two pages a week that’s ten weeks.

Why does everyone assume the problem with this combat is a pacing issue?

I mean, it is in terms of story pacing- it’s not time for an unbeatable arch-villain- but that isn’t the problem with the fight, per se. Dave actually has an excellent grasp of the pacing of the combat.

The problem with this story is that it undermines main characters before they’ve had a chance to lay a real foundation.

I was just reacting to some of the comments complaining about the pacing of the fight and how heated they seemed.

You raise a fair point but I think this can actually add to the teams credibility if done right. They have to give Vehemence a reason to back off for a long time. It’s like why Darkseid doesn’t invade Earth every week because he knows the justice league will kick his ass without a plan.

This actually reminds me a lot of the Justice League: War movie. Where Darkseid makes the league look like a bitch when he first shows up. I think this ass kicking is just to show how new this team is and maybe show that Maxima’s not unbeatable.

I preferred Batman: Assault on Arkham, and Apocalypse (although I wish they kept the original ending of the Superman/Supergirl fight, where they had Superman have to use a kryptonite ring to beat Supergirl). It was altered to a ‘super clap’ to take her out because execs didnt want Superman striking his teenage cousin (even though in the comics, he had an internal monologue about how she was more powerful than him and was going to kill him if he didnt do something different). At least they gave Supergirl a really cool fight scene against Darkseid.

Wasnt really a fan of War because of the voice acting. Darkseid acting like a jobber was still sometimes canon (since he does act like a jobber in the comics a lot more than he did in the JLU cartoon)… it wasnt terrible. And Darkseid did get beaten in the end by a combination of Wonder Woman and Flash blinding him (still not sure how a normal crowbar has the same effect as an enchanted sword of the gods, but no need to nitpick on that).

In War, in the very end, after the rest of the team (Wonder Woman and Flash) managed to blind Darkseid, and Cyborg got rid of the parademons (with Captain Marvel’s help, Superman (their ‘big guns’) was able to come back from the brink and beat Darkseid decisively (after being saved by Batman)

Of course, this fight isnt done yet, so maybe Maxima will have that type of chance as well.

I’d really like if that were the case. I just am not seeing it in how everything’s been progressing to this point.

I’m still hopeful about the Death Toll tactic, at which point Vehemence would decide to make a strategic retreat if he’s significantly depowered from that.

Plus it’s the only way I can personally think of that he’d actually be able to come back (though I’m hard pressed to understand why, if he did come back, Maxima wouldnt take his advice and destroy him right away.)

Dave keeps saying Vehemence has never been this powerful and is kind of making it up as he goes along. That’s not a good strategy. I think he’s gonna try something that backfires on him, badly. I think he’ll eventually reach a level he can’t handle and be hit with a huge backlash. Like being jacked up on sugar than crashing hard.

Him watching Dabbler made sense when they thought she wouldn’t detect him. There is/was no point to continue that after Sydney revealed him (and Dabbler topped it by saying that she has known for some time even before that).

I hate to say it, but the only thing I think that might put him down for the count is a series of teleports.
Right leg Africa, Left Leg Australia, Right arm Antarctica, Left arm Nome, Alaska, Groin Pfhingvalier Iceland, stomach My Etna, Italy, Chest, the Mariano’s Trench, Head, the Sun, Sol System.

Wouldnt he just regenerate from that and become 4 times stronger, with metal arms and legs?

Also… who would be doing that teleporting? Wasnt it stated that Harem can’t transport organic matter or living stuff or something (plus not sure if anyone ever said anything about if Harem can teleport ‘part’ of something even if she was able to teleport organic matter. Actually that’s a good question – is Harem’s teleporting ability something that doesnt work on ALL organic matter (except herself) or just against living organic matter? And can she teleport part of a complete object? (ie, teleporting half a brick)

I have a pretty good memory and I don’t recall Harem having been limited to inorganic material or nonliving material at all; she is limited in the quantity of mass she can teleport, though, and given V’s apparent density, probably wouldn’t be able to get more than his fingernail, assuming she could do partial items at all.

I honestly don’t remember if DaveB said she can or can’t in the comments. I also do find it unlikely that she can teleport ‘parts’ of complete items unless they’re like…. an easily removable part (like the pin from a grenade)

Like… lets say it was Harem vs Juggernaut. Would Harem be able to teleport just Juggernaut’s helmet from his armor off of him? And if so, if it was Harem vs Nimrod, would she be able to teleport part of Nimrod’s head off him. One is a part which can be detached from the rest of the armor. The other is built into the entire robot.

Incidentally, I tend to think that teleportation, especially if it is usable on anything beyond the user herself, is vastly overpowered: got a villain that can’t be beat? Teleport a needle into his heart and watch the fusion explosion caused by two solid objects trying to occupy the same space at the same time. Better yet, teleport the villain into the heart of a star or into a black hole. Not a whole lot of defense against something like that…

Remember when Peggy was showing Sydney around ARCHON, and Hiro got soda on his shirt, and Harem then teleported his shirt off. Then every other guy’s shirt off. Then Sydney just was watching mouth agape and drooling?

Btw, I’m pretty certain Harem can’t teleport a needle into someone’s heart. She can only teleport line of sight (or somewhere that she’s VERY familiar with), although she did manage to do the teleport into the ambulance but I think she gave some reason for how she did that with watching it on TV).

Not to mention I believe she teleports WITH whatever she’s teleporting, so she can’t teleport a needle into someone without teleporting herself into that person, which… well that would probably kill both of htem even if she WAS able to teleport into someone (assuming she had X-ray vision, which she doesnt :) )

Also she couldnt teleport anyone into the heart of a star because 1) she has a distance limitation, and 2) she’s never been in the heart of a star, nor is she familiar with the location of being within the heart of a star.

I can definitely see how a teleporter who didn’t have sane limitations like Harem WOULD be vastly overpowered, though.

Ah, yes. Thanks, I’d forgotten about that scene. That does suggest that Harem would be able to do the Juggernaut helmet-be-gone trick, but not any of the instantly lethal tricks which some teleporters could do…

Harem also has a 50lbs. (approximate) payload besides her own body weight (when condensed to a single body), including her clothing. So, anybody know how much Juggy’s helmet weighs? That would probably be the determining factor of success.

Juggernaut’s armor weighs over 120 pounds (Which is nothing to him) Based on how an normal suit of 16th century plate armor weighs, on average 45-55 pounds (looked that up too), and the helmet weighs 4-8 pounds, we can assume a helmet generally weighs 6.875 percent of the total weight of a suit of armor. So by using math, it can be estimated that Juggernaut’s armor weighs between 8 and 9 pounds.

Don’t feel too bad. I considered looking it up, but ultimately decided it wasn’t actually germane to my point. Juggernaut has known mass (which I was aware of, although I didn’t know the exact amount), so I assumed his armor would have reasonably limited mass. Now, it’s possible that V’s immobility is simply some form of souped up knockback resistance, but it really seems like density increase, which is where I get my idea that Harem would be limited to fingernail clippings.

Also… even if that was possible, which I’m very sure it isnt (plus would be massively overpowered as well), how would anything get teleported to the sun or marianas trench, when Harem has never been there. Plus she has a distance limit usually.

Unless you mean some type of teleporting technology of Dabbler’s, though from what I saw it’s tied to the cybernetic arm and specific weapons (maybe that have teleporting technology built into them once no longer in her possession), not just ‘anything’ she sees.

The main problem is the idea of teleporting him into pieces all over the solar system is that would be massively overpowered and a one-hit kill against any enemy, and would be arguably be deus-ex-machina-ish (I should trademark that form of the word now).

The interesting thing about this comic is that Vehemence seems to be saying that his powers will weaken overtime even if he continues to “feed” regularly by traveling to places with an abundance of violence, and taking into account that he is saying his absorption range increases with his power. His stated reasons for planning to kill Maxima seem to reinforce this, as does a review reply from the author.

The fact that his markings change color means that Vehemence is advertizing his threat level at any given time, so the ARC team or anyone who wants to bring Vehemence down can observe/keep an eye out for him until his markings drop back to blue and then headshot him with about equal force to a tank blast.*

Hardly a glaring weakness, but it does seem manegable for people like Atomic Bombshell, or someone with an anti-tank rifle (assuming Peggy wasn’t already using one, I’m not gun savvy), or one of Dabbler’s railguns. Maybe Heavenly Sword could decapitate him at that level as well.

With the knowledge that he will likely be put on government watch lists after this if he escapes, and the fact that he has probably burned quite a few bridges with his connections for the betrayal, I am curious as to just what Vehemence plans to gain from all of this if not just the satisfaction of a good fight.

* I’m estimating a tank blast as sufficient when his markings are blue based on the fact that while Peggy was able to damage his eye with a sniper rifle, the bullet apparently wasn’t able to go deeper into his skull.

It’s another thing a bunch of people who don’t like Vehemence as an archvillain have said actually. He has no real motivations beyond causing trouble, like a poorly thought out Captain Planet villain (which is all Captain Planet villains, actually). He acts like a mook, not an archvillain, yet is given the powers of an ultimate archvillain. He’s a footsoldier from HYDRA with the power of a Doomsday + Darkseid + Dormammu. There’s no reason someone with such a lame reasoning should have so much power, or be seen as such a master strategist, or have all this experience of knowing every other superhuman that a government funded expert team does not know, when his entire motivation is just ‘to beat people up for lulz.’ One would think if he was really such a master strategist, he’d have more rational long term goals. Or even short term goals. Other than ’cause damage.’

His goal isn’t to ’cause damage,’ it’s to ‘experience violence.’ Instead of thinking of him like a mook, think of him like some kind of murder-buddha, enlightened and enraptured by his innate grasp of Violence. His motives are simple, and maybe not grandiose, but it is simple in the way that a storm is simple- the ease with which he can be comprehended does not reduce his destructive nature.

It’s the same thing. His goal is to experience violence. His goal is to cause damage. Causing damage via violent acts. I wish people would stop trying to redefine words to make it seem like Vehemence is all enlightened and not bad when it’s clear from the definition. Violence is intent to do harm. Damage is the harm that’s done. You can’t have violence WITHOUT damage.

The difference I wanted to emphasize, actually, was the difference between doing and being. Vehemence is, almost literally, a force of nature, an entity that feeds off of violence itself and has come to terms with where that puts him in the world. This is why I call him the Murder-Buddha- he is the demonstration that a harmonious nature and a destructive nature can be one and the same.

Meh – I think calling him anything more than the mook that he acts like overinflates this character’s importance, personally. I don’t really see any difference between someone who’s entire shtick is to cause violence and someone who’s entire shtick is to ‘damage people and stuff’ – since they both are the same exact thing. One cannot cause violence without there being damage by the very definition of ‘violence.’ Saying buddha just seems to make me think that people are still seeing him as not evil – which he definitely is. People who hurt, damage, cause pain (and death) for no justifiable reason and with intent (that last part’s important also for the definition) are, by definition, evil – whereas ‘buddha’ implies an enlightened, non-evil bent on things.

I’m hopeful about the railgun thing, btw. I don’t think an anti-tank rifle would do anything at this point though. I don’t think a tank would do anything at this point. Or any conventional weapon (since if you recall, Peggy’s second bullet didn’t even do anything). Or most unconventional weapons.

I’m just hoping that since Dabbler seems to have particularly powerful superweapons at her disposal, maybe that would have an affect if used lethally.

As a side note: I absolutely love Maxima’s superpower concept/design. She’s an interesting take on the superman archetype (ie, ‘I’m so unbelievably powerful that i can do just about anything the plot needs me to’) and unlike supes* has an explanation for quickly fluctuating power levels built into her character.

—

*well okay, he KINDA does with the whole sunlight thing, but it’s a lot harder to wrap one’s head around and doesn’t happen as quickly… unless the writers want it to… or if kryptonite is inv YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN

You know, you keep saying that, but I don’t get where your problems are coming from.

Maxima carefully directed her team against a bunch of somewhat-powerful villains that all outnumbered ARC-SWAT by three-to-one or more, and was able to subdue them with minimal property damage and relatively little harm to her team or to the other villains. Vehemence, on the other hand, has been a hulking brute who happens to know a lot of guys willing to fight ARC-SWAT, whose defining characteristics have been his unusually calm and polite demeanor (when not trying to beat the snot of of people) and his ability to match Maxima blow for blow.

The only real mistake Maxima has made, from a tactical standpoint, is underestimating the degree to which Vehemence is able to benefit from Vehemic energy. The use of Peggy’s .50 cal rifle, the “pepper mill” technique, and even blasting V’s arm off were all sensible ways to go about beating a villain with the kind of strength Vehemence had demonstrated- she just doesn’t know anything about how Malumi work, and didn’t realize that he could reach Penumbrate levels of power by absorbing enough violence.

It’s a reasonable miscalculation, considering literally no one else on Earth works that way.

The weird thing is I agree with you on everything you said up until ‘ she just doesn’t know anything about how Malumi work, and didn’t realize that he could reach Penumbrate levels of power by absorbing enough violence.’ since Dabbler told her exactly that beforehand.

But my problem is the fact that Vehemence keeps generating powers to nullify every attempt Maxima makes which could counter Vehemence’s ‘the more violence used, the stronger I get’ tactic. Blocking won’t work. Lifting him for a BFR (battlefield removal) won’t work. Trying to cause so much damage that the benefits don’t match the costs (law of diminishing returns) doesnt work.

Honestly, how many other options are there? Tickle torture like people jokingly say here? Hug technique? which is also a joke idea. Vehemence is a character that has been made SOLELY to make Maxima into basically an incompetent-looking chump because if she had been able to competently and efficiently win the fight, people who have a problem with a self-assured, confident, powerful woman would be angry – and that’s where my problem is coming from.

Actually, the problem with Maxima rofl-stomping Vehemence would have a lot less to do with any misogyny (although I’m sure that’s a problem with some), and more with her pushing Mary Sue status… at least, in some people’s eyes. I mean, she’s fast, tough, smart, experienced, and just generally a badass- her violent streak, and her tendency to jump to violence as a solution to her problems is intended to be a character flaw. You know, the kind of thing that can get your ass kicked if you decide to unleash a beating on the wrong guy.

As for the powers he “keeps” generating, how many of those are you counting? Because so far I’ve seen maybe five actual “powers” (super strength, super toughness, super speed, vehemic siphoning, regeneration) and of those, he always had the first four (even if we didn’t know about vehemic energy yet) and the fifth was always a hinted possibility. The rest are spells gathered from, ostensibly, years of research or experience. And before you go on a rant about people how he could learn magical principles without having to cast them, I would refer you to Gwen (an actual magician) getting training from Zheong (a man who only knows the theory of magic) as precedent.

Vehemence has done nothing that has actually broken the rules established by the setting or the comic, and the actual number of powers he has demonstrated has been fairly limited (certainly compared to Dabbler or Sydney). It’s true that he’s exceptionally powerful, but can you really say he’s more powerful than Maxima, who doesn’t need the charge-up time he does?

If they want to defeat Vehemence, a violent solution is probably not going to work at this point, not unless they find a way to drain his pool of vehemic energy. So instead, they’ll have to try non-violent solutions- maybe talking him down, maybe greasing the floor under his feet, maybe using some kind of subsonic wave to mess up his inner ear and keep him off balance. Yeah, it may not be the big climactic victory they want, but remember, that’s not their goal- they just want to bring super-villains to justice, and because of that, they may have to use a method that lacks the flare or pizazz of pummeling Vehemence into a crater.

1) The problem with calling Maxima a Mary Sue is, frankly, she hasnt actually DONE anything Mary Sue-ish. She’s bragged about being powerful. That’s it. Even her curb-stomping Vehemence wouldnt be a Mary Sue event – she’s already shown she can make mistakes that the greenhorn genre savvy protagonist Sydney (who I also really do like) needs to bail her out of before Maxima makes a mess of things. That’s not what a Mary Sue is. What Vehemence does is a Mary Sue (or Marty Stu or Gary Stu, not that it actually is a different thing). Curb stomping Mar- er, I mean Vehemence would have been cool, in fact (plus different than most (possibly all) storylines featuring a female character who relies on superhuman strength and invulnerability as a major aspect of her powerset. Anything about her being ‘tough, smart, experienced, etc, has primarily been through people SAYING she is – there’s no actual evidence of it for the readers to see though.

2) As for the powers he keeps regenerating:
Vehemic Siphoning (which does lead to allllll the others)
Superhuman strength (raised at least 5 times so far)
Superhuman invulnerability (raised at least 5 times so far)
Superhuman speed (raised at least twice so far)
Growth
Matter Creation (which is the only forgiveable one I see, because it’s for comedy)
Anti-Movement Glyphs around his feet
Regeneration (instant) with a side helping of ‘metal limbs’
Lightning
Wall of non-Kinetic-but-still-throws-people-back-like-rag-dolls Force (physics be damned)
Plus there are going to be more things he pulls from his giant butt.

In addition, he’s a master strategist, expert brawler apparently, manipulator extreme, massively well-endowed (apparently), connected with the metahuman world far better than a government-run intelligence group with access to magic, technological hackers, and unlimited resources…

And apparently he has the same plot armor that Maxima has because he is, by word of god, going to be a recurring character, unless DaveB just said that to throw us off on how the heck this can be resolved without Maxima looking like a total chump AND Vehemence not only surviving, but surviving in such a way that the first thing Maxima wouldnt do if she ever comes up against him again would be to fly him into space and then blow him up with a nuclear sized plasma attack IN space.

Oh, and of course, he also doesnt seem to have any cap on how powerful he can get (so far, at least – I’m hopeful but not optimistic that he’ll eventually blow his cap and lose his powers, forcing a retreat or, I hope to god, death or coma).

So yeah, that’s more than 5 powers. And from what DaveB hinted at, the next few pages will have him pulling out more powers. So … so much for him actually burning through any of these powers :(

3) Vehemence DOES do things which break the rules. Because every time he develops a new power, it’s not like they all have to do with violence even. If it was all him getting stronger and more invulnerable and faster, okay – that is pretty directed at violence. Growth? Okay – that’s pretty much directed at violence too. Lightning even… I can see that. If not for the other stuff Regeneration doesnt have anything to do with violence. It’s negating violence. Anti-Movement glyphs? What the heck does that have to do with violence? Those two are just ridiculous, made solely to prevent a non-violent way of getting him BFR’ed, and preventing a law of diminishing returns on his power/cost ratio. The wall of force thing? Okay – that’s something based on violence. But yet it should NOT have worked on Anvil, who absorbs kinetic force. If it pushes her, that is by nature kinetic. It’s physics. What was he worried about anyway? Anvil hitting her? Moving her? If Maxima couldnt, Anvil sure wouldnt be able to. It was just utterly unnecessary and diminished Anvil’s powerset. Yet it can only be used once, for reasons I don’t understand, since it doesnt seem to have actually cost Vehemence any real power (since he’s still holding Maxima down and electricuting her, and resisting the lighthook with laughable ease in the very next panel).

Yes, he needs charge up time, but considering the storyline here allowed him to START with already a huge charge up, it feels a lot like how when Sebastian Shaw automatically makes sure he’s super-powerful by punching walls for an hour every morning so he can start the day at a 100 ton strength level.

Admittedly, the storyline for the fight is not done yet, but I’m just basing my opinion on what I’ve seen -so far.- What I’ve seen so far is frustratingly irritating for every move that Vehemence has made since his regeneration of limbs. I mean I’ve read the comic for over 2 years, never commented on it at all and in the last 2 or 3 days I’ve been so frustrated and disillusioned by the dumbing down of one of the two main female protagonists that I wind up writing novels in the comments board.

4) Please tell me a way you can think of to stop Vehemence which, based on the past stuff he’s done in this fight, he can’t just generate a new power to counter out of the blue? The ONLY things I can think of is using Death Toll’s body to Nemesis him (which could maybe suck out his vehemic energy as a defensive counter to his power) or Vehemence popping his cap (though that needs to mean that he HAS a cap, which I’m becoming less and less hopeful about a well).

Greasing the floor under his feet? He’ll develop a glyph similar to his anti-movement glyph to create friction. Or he’ll just jump to another location with Maxima, slamming her back down into the ground upon his new impact crater. And this is assuming they have some way to ‘grease the floor’ – which admittedly is possible if Dabbler has some doohickey device from her lab to do that, like an anti-friction spray or something, I dunno. But it would still be meaningless if he can just pop a new power to counter it.

Subsonic wave? He can simply say ‘That could have worked before, but now I have power to burn’ because now he’s just too invulnerable for the sonic attacks to hurt his eardrums and inner ear.

Please – tell me another way to beat him where he can’t just pop off a new power to undo or counter it? How do you beat someone who gets more and more powerful from ANY violence, including his own, given this particular fight scenario at this point? I’m not being sarcastic in THIS request – I really really really DO want to know to give me some hope that this fight isnt going to be even more disillusioning. Because no matter what, I don’t see how, even in the two scenarios I’m guessing, it would in any way be Maxima who can actually do anything.

Not to mention that beating a villain with flare and pizazz? It’s fun to see in a visually based medium. Beating a villain with something non-stimulating for the eyes? Well… first off I can’t think of a way in this particular fight scenario, and second, even if I could…. that would seem incredibly boring. Wouldnt it?

PS – I don’t think DaveB is mysogynistic at all. He’s written all of the female characters as smart and competent and powerful characters up to before the Vehemence fight, or at least well designed ones. He made a female character the leader, with a powerset that would normally be reserved for men – ‘pinnacle physical strength and invulnerability (and pretty close in speed as well)’ Even comics with characters like Wonder Woman and Supergirl (post-Loeb) and Mary Marvel always have people pointing out stuff like “but Superman’s stronger! Captain Marvel is stronger!” or “Superman just holds back – that’s why it was a close fight or he was losing!” or -often- making them into damsels in distress, or having them fight just the female supervillains.

So no, Dave B is not. But I think some of the people who are rooting for Vehemence to curb-stomp Maxima with his contrived, deus-y powers ARE either outright or latently mysogynistic (which is unfortunately a very common thing in a majority of male comic book readers, judging as a woman from a lot of comic forums I’ve read, as well as a lot of comic books with female heroines in them).

PS – to MrInsecure, I’m not trying to say this in any sort of angry way directed at you either.

And I agree that one of Maxima’s flaws is she does a lot of aggressive fist-to-face tactics. But she’s also supposed to be a leader-worthy soldier with a lot of experience in battle tactics, and several of her strategies honestly should have worked if Vehemence didnt keep pulling out new powers, and it isnt being repeatedly shown that the only way to not lose against him is to run away. Which sucks and totally undermines Maxima’s character – rather than just teaching her a tactical lesson in how to fight him. By the point of her blowing off her arm, she’d already learned a tactical lesson. She’d been trying moves like lifting him and just blocking him but they were not working at all.

Ya know, if Maxima had KILLED V right there instead of underestimating him and blowing off his arm, she would’ve won already. Seems like it was perfectly possible and she just missed her chance.

You keep saying V is Deus Ex Machina-ing his way out of danger. Aside from the regenerative power (which so far hasn’t actually done all that much) I don’t see how. It’s not a deus ex machina when a character is powerful enough to win and explains how. It’s not a DEM that he’s got enough power to overcome the team. This is his first appearance, so the fact that he has powers that before now haven’t been shown is not a DEM either. He has flaws and can be harmed, so he’s not a Mary Sue.

It’s fine to dislike a character or the events surrounding that character, but the reasoning you give for it is simply incorrect. Sorry.

1) A wall of force means, according to basic physics, that kinetic energy is used. Pushing force = kinetic energy.
2) Even assuming the laws of physics took an absolute holiday to let Vehemence do this, nullifying Anvil’s primary power for no reason other than ‘why the heck not’…. why would it then be just a one-time thing? So if Anvil does the same thing again he won’t be able to do it again? Why not? Does physics say ‘hey, I just read the rule book and you’re not supposed to be able to do that ‘ then hits V on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and says ‘bad!’ ? I mean… if maybe violating the laws of physics and nullfying Anvil’s powers was a one-time thing because it uses up a LOT of stored vehemic power, wouldnt Maxima then be able to break free? Or wouldnt Sydney be able to flip him with the lighthook? Or wouldnt his metal arm and yellow eye and metal teeth go away? Or wouldnt he have to STOP ELECTRICUTING Maxima? I mean… the only reason I can think of about why it would be a one time thing would be power usage, but you clearly don’t see any draining of V’s power. He doesnt even seem to be straining or trying hard to resist Sydney, or Maxima while he’s choking her into the ground when the only thing preventing Maxima from being dead is her maxed out armor.

Gravitons are hypothetical, unproven particles which are supposed to ‘carry’ gravity. Why would that act as a wall of force? They’re feeble particles actually, and need to, so the theory goes, be massless in order to exist. Which negates the possibility that they could create a wall of kinetic force.

Also, gravity attracts, it doesnt repel other matter, unless it’s theoretical ‘negative matter.’ I’m going to make a guess that Anvil is not made of negative matter.

How do I know that gravity only attracts, and cannot repel in our universe? Because it’s the definition of gravity. Here’s how gravity works….

F=Gm1m2/r^2 – it’s called Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation (a law, not just a theory even). m1 and m2 represent masses of two objects, r is the radius from the center of the gravity. There is no way to have the two masses create anything except an attractive force, unless the numbers for m1 and m2 are negative, which means negative matter. Which doesnt exist and literally can’t exist in our universe. Nothing in the universe has negative mass. Even antimatter, which CAN exist, is not NEGATIVE matter (ie, matter with negative mass).

Today’s physics lesson has been brought to you by Pander on Sesame Street, because Bert and Ernie couldnt present it since they’re engaging in class warfare on Wall Street.

Point of fact, this isn’t our universe, and therefore should not be assumed to obey all the laws therein implied.
Also: we don’t know that negative matter, or exotic matter as it is currently described, doesn’t exist even in our universe.
Also, Newton’s Law really stops being applicable when you start talking about the quantum nature of forces like gravity. Einstein’s General Relativity is a much more accurate description, and even that has it’s limitations.

How can he do it? By relying on the readers to not examine it too closely. If Anvil’s power was absolute then Vehemence wouldn’t have been able to grab her hair and toss her away, either. Or the time he launched her into the air, that couldn’t happen either. By physics, which is only loosely tied to superpowers.

DaveB has already said that she has problems with his speed attacks such as bullets, so just consider this to be a high speed attack. Anvil is a fairly good absorber of kinetic energy, if she were a perfect absorber of kinetic energy she couldn’t even move herself.

I’ve been suggesting a combined Maxima blast with a Halo PPO blast for a while. But given Sydney’s reaction to Maxima blowing off V’s arm I don’t think she has it in her to go for a kill shot. She might be pushed into it, sorta like Superman in Man of Steel*, especially if it looks like Maxima is going to be killed.

* Yes, I know that there is a large contingency of fanboys who despised the fact that the hero who never, ever kills killed in that movie. I’m not one of them. He was pushed into a “kill or let innocents die” situation and chose the right decision. The only real way for him to avoid it would have been by being able to render Zod unconscious, and his choke hold didn’t seem to be doing much towards that. And then of course there would be the “how do you jail a clone of the Man of Steel” issue…

Hey Dave, just wanted to say I’m still reading and enjoying the comic, just don’t have a lot of time to comment right now. Looking forward to the end of the flashback, and maybe we see Sydney play DCH again :).

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