BlackCanary wrote:I'm more interested in why you were considering transferring, if it's not too personal.

Sure. To preface this, my friends told me there would be anarchy if Cusenation ever disavowed WUSTL and left for another school.

It wasn't something I even considered until after I got my first semester grades. The only way I would forfeit a full ride and incur the expenses/inconveniences of moving to a different city would be if I had HYSCCN options. Data showed that I was pretty secure to be admitted to UChicago via Early Decision and that I had a pretty secure shot at NYU and CLS if I maintained my performance through the Spring term. Harvard and Stanford were within reach but not secure, i needed to do a little better for them, but they were within the realm of possibility since I could conceivably do better this semester.

It's hard not to consider the option when those schools are on the table. I would probably get the same-or-similar job from WUSTL since I only want BigLaw. If I was interested in clerking or academia, then I would probably leave. But the WUSTL kids with my grades usually have the option to work at the same firms that the HYSCCN kids do (minus Wachtell i guess).

But ultimately those schools offer a level of prestige that can't be matched by WUSTL (or any other school below them). And the markets I'm targeting (Boston, NYC, DC) tend to be more prestige-obsessed than others. So it wasn't that I had anything to lose by staying at WUSTL, I just had a lot to gain by attending HYSCCN in terms of prestige and alumni network.

I had some honest talks with CSO, faculty, my parents, practicing attorneys at major Vault firms, WUSTL students who had transferred (to UChi and Harvard). Ultimately it became clear that there were situations where it made sense and where it didn't.

Unfortunately I don't have Harvard-goals. I'm not gunning to become partner at one of these megafirms (even if I wanted to, I know for a fact i would change my mind once I was in the trenches). I'm not trying to clerk for SCOTUS or make a big name for myself in government or something. I just want to practice law in the private sector and have a chance at having a life outside of work. Not only would I have to borrow Harvard-level-loans for non-Harvard-goals, once you attend those schools, there's an expectation that you commit to the prestige/money rat race. You don't go to Harvard and then go to an AmLaw 200. You don't go to Columbia to work for the local DA's office. You go to HYSCCN to take advantage of their placement in the Vault megafirms. Some people told me that I could transfer to HYSCCN, then just go to a smaller-mid-level-firm. But that didn't make sense to me. Any added prestige I would get from attending those schools wouldn't really help me in those firms. The prestige currency has its maximum worth in the hallowed halls of academia and megafirms, not in the lifestyle AmLaw 200 firm where the attorneys get to spend time with their families.

There were other soft considerations too. I like WUSTL and my friends/classmates. The thought of having to make new friends again and network with professors all over again wasn't appealing. But those are things that I would have overcome if I had decided to leave i guess, but they were still considerations.

Finally, I know for a fact that I'm not hungry enough to survive the 5-7 years in BigLaw to pay off those loans. Doing well 1L year is nothing compared to working 90-100 hour weeks for 5-7 years in a BigLaw environment. Especially because I have personal goals that conflict with that lifestyle (namely getting married and starting a family).

One of the biggest ironies I see among 0L's: They attend T14 at sticker because they're too cautious to assume that they'll be top 33-25% at a lower ranked law school, but they're bold enough to think they can survive 5-7 years in BigLaw. That doesn't make sense. If you're cautious enough to think you'll only be median, then you should also be cautious enough to assume that you won't survive the requisite years in BigLaw to pay off T14 loans. Based on my own experience, doing sufficiently well in 1L isn't extremely difficult. And based on what I've heard/read, doing well in 1L is hilariously easy compared to surviving that many years in BigLaw in this market.

Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions

Thanks for writing this. This really puts into perspective the internal debate of T14 at sticker vs. Full ride T20.

Question though. It seems to me that you would like to partner at a decent size decently respected firm? That seems to be the way to a life outside of work in private practice right? Not so big you're constantly gunning, not so small you're constantly hustling?

In my city anyway, in this type of firm, it seems HYSCCN(+Mich, NU) are over-represented as partners compared to associates. So I assumed that partnering at these was still prestige oriented to a degree? Did you come to this conclusion as well? Am I off-base?

I actually have no idea if I wanna make partner at one of those mid-level firms. It would depend largely on the culture of the firm itself, my personal life, and my practice-area. But it's a possibility. And yes, it is a nice balance. You won't be earning 7 figures every year, but more than what you'll need. And you'll have time to spend time outside of work. But again, that could vary depending on firm, location, practice area. Things like partner-to-associate ratio (leverage) have a big impact on your lifestyle as a partner and your chances of making partner.

I'm gonna guess you're in Chicago? Prestige is always going to be an influencing factor in our profession, it's just the way it is. Without knowing the specific attorneys at these firms, I can't guess whether or not prestige of the school had anything to do with them making partner there. But there are other ways that people with those pedigrees had a better shot at partnership that's not directly related to prestige. They could have made partner somewhere else first (like a prestige-obsessed Vault firm) and lateraled to the smaller one. Or the more likely scenario, it's probably just a function of those schools sending more graduates into Chicago BigLaw to begin with. The more bodies you have in the pool, the more likely that one of them will become partner.

WUSTL attorneys get promoted to partnerships every year (See the NLJ data, subscription required though). But we don't send as many WUSTL graduates into BigLaw as say NU or HYSCCN. So we have less attorneys that are rolling the partnership dice.

Yeah I honestly liked that they knew who we were, I think it shows that they care and that they do their homework. I also saw some of the Adcomms point to us at lunch as they were talking, most likely commenting on the 10 or so of us trying to all fit together on couches/chairs

scottidsntknow wrote:Yeah I honestly liked that they knew who we were, I think it shows that they care and that they do their homework. I also saw some of the Adcomms point to us at lunch as they were talking, most likely commenting on the 10 or so of us trying to all fit together on couches/chairs

Does anyone know how WUSTL is able to offer so much more than every other peer school? I know that Anh-Busch gave a bunch and the brand new Oxbridge Law School named after them is evidence of that but I just think it's amazing they keep moving up the rankings and keep offering way more than everyone else and there Career Services is expanding, employment statistics are improving like everything is firing on all cylinder I'm just 1) really impressed and 2) wondering why every other law school outside the t14 isn't mimicking WUSTL like crazy?

Wustl Law has one of the largest endowments of any law school in the country because of good investing/management during bad economic times and good fundraising from alumni. Last time I checked we were in the top 10 endowments, so the dividends that produces each year get to be used for things like scholarships.

We also get a ton of support from the main university, which many law schools don't have.

PrideandGlory1776 wrote:Does anyone know how WUSTL is able to offer so much more than every other peer school? I know that Anh-Busch gave a bunch and the brand new Oxbridge Law School named after them is evidence of that but I just think it's amazing they keep moving up the rankings and keep offering way more than everyone else and there Career Services is expanding, employment statistics are improving like everything is firing on all cylinder I'm just 1) really impressed and 2) wondering why every other law school outside the t14 isn't mimicking WUSTL like crazy?

We have a frickin massive endowment. But also, our operating costs are SO much lower than many of our peers. Operating a major law school/university in cities like Chicago, Boston, Los Angeles, and NYC is extremely expensive whereas operating one in St. Louis is much cheaper. So we have more money and our costs are lower.

Hiiiii all. Is it fairly normal to get an email that tells you that you're being considered for a scholarship, including the following sentence: "We have forwarded your file to the Scholarship Committee to be considered for one of our Scholars in Law Awards." ? Wasn't sure if Scholars in Law was a distinction, figured this was the place to ask. Thanks!

Ricky-Bobby wrote:Cuse or Sublime, did either of your scholarships turn into named scholarships when you matriculated? That just seems weird to me.

They aren't "named" in the sense of a Ruby or Vanderbilt. What they do is just put a big donor's name on it and ask you to write a thank you email to them. It is really for the donors, not us. Although you do use the name on a resume, if you choose to include it. So it does have some use.

ETA: and you get to go to a nice banquet dinner thing with free booze so they can show off what the donors bought. Really circlejerky, but still, free booze.

+1

It really is more for the donor's sake. Which isn't bad since they do donate a significant sum to the school. Some of my classmates put the full name of the scholarship on their resumes.