I wanted to get a perspective from other monks on my burn order, I normally use this for any burn situation on raids. Can yall help me tweak it. first my two spam keys the first one is a macro with flying kick, synergy, stunning kick, vigorous shuriken, and bane strike(keep it in spam key for grouping, i know it doesnt work on raids) then my second spam key is just cloud of fists. then next my burn order is:
1. infusion of the resolute(vet reward)
2. Drunken monkey stance
3. Speed focus
4. Five Point Palm
5. Zan Fi Whistle
6. Second Spire
7. Epic click
8. Breast plate click
9. Destructive force(if no mobs are being mezed or chanters arnt using the MC bug to lower the mobs hp)
10. let speed focus run its course

Any help in tweaking my burn would be much appreciated, trying to maximize my dps as much as soe will allow me to.

Maereax

02-08-2013, 11:48 AM

Here's what I do:

Start with iron fist, then synergy for the debuff, click breastplate and remove the first buff, click crane and melee until the bop proc goes off.

Once bp procs I hit tigers balance, drop ironfist and hit one of the two following combinations, depending on what buffs I have in my sing window:

If I have a fists of steel proc up for more than 14 seconds, I hit terrorpalm,

If I don't have 14s of FoS I hit DM, second spire, Zan fi, infusion of thunder, speedfocus, and DF if possible.

Once one has run is course, I use the other. After speed and TP are both down, I use DM and then heel. Then I let eye of the storm run throughout the rest of the fight.

This is all with spamming stunning kick and synergy And fkick and cloud on cooldown.

Aggememnon

02-08-2013, 12:06 PM

same as maereax if you want a hard burn, but if its a longer fight, I will finish with Ironfist and let it run the full minute. (And click circle of power).

If there are more fights coming (eg NToV), I will use the lesser 10 min disc thunderkick in place of Ironfist.

Also, if there is a BL and they fire Kolos Fury or Ruaabri's Fury (hh), I will preferentially use Terrorpalm with that, wherever it may come (if they tell you heh).

One big difference I see is that you use 7th vet with SF, but I suggest you use infusion of thunder. (note I assume you meant intensity of the ...)
Intensity: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6886&source=Live (Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 55% )
Infusion: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=31659&source=Live (Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 80%)

sojuu

02-08-2013, 04:25 PM

That sounds good I'll see about chainging where i use infusion of thunder. I am mostly kind of self taught, main reason I wanted to ask here and figure out what I am doing wrong. Finally getting around to it after 8 years and 242 days, wow I thought it was less time untill I just now did a /played on my character. Where does the time go lol

tanecho

02-08-2013, 04:35 PM

I like to open with my BP pre-clicked, speed focus as my first disc with infusion/zan fi, etc.

When it ends, I go into terrorpalm, use eagle's balance here and destructive force (this is when I get fury generally). My BP kick will fire during terrorpalm, which isn't capable of as big of a number as ironfist, but it is a consistently high one, and this way I get the benefit of all 20 procs for another 50-60k damage.
I move into ironfist here on a long fight and fire my crane kick. I ride this out, because eagle's balance benefits from ironfist and terrorpalm more than any other disc, and it lasts about as long as their combined duration.

After this, it's on to heel, and then finally eye. I will click off ironfist earlier and move to heel if it is going to be a short fight, or eye if it's a short fight and there's another fight right after.

I hit drunken monkey between every disc.

Maereax

02-08-2013, 04:48 PM

Why DF with terror instead of speed?

tanecho

02-08-2013, 04:53 PM

Destructive force will add 1 extra swing on your primary target. Terrorpalm autoattack is more powerful than speed focus / infusion autoattack at this point, prior to this expansion I would've used it with speed focus. Even though I get fewer DF swings, the ones I get are so much more powerful that they make up the difference.

Maereax

02-08-2013, 07:12 PM

How long does DF last? 18s?

I'm curious which it benefits more now.

tanecho

02-08-2013, 09:47 PM

It's somewhere between 18 and 30. It's really hard to know because it is a script not a buff, and it's not super noticeable when you are swinging 4-7 times instead of 3-6 in a round on just the primary hand. Can't really parse it out either. I would assume it is an irrelevant difference, but my guess is terrorpalm.

Rasputyn

02-09-2013, 03:10 AM

Are you guys not getting shaman+bard support consistently? The most common way I use Eye is the 2 min downtime between epic clicks.

Gorkeyah

02-09-2013, 02:24 PM

Are you guys not getting shaman+bard support consistently? The most common way I use Eye is the 2 min downtime between epic clicks.

That's an idea.... I tend to work down from best to worst, but there are some long fights around now.

Maereax

02-09-2013, 03:23 PM

I get put in the appsThatCan'tRunAStraightLine, druid, enchanter, pally groups because I play a monk. Actually, I just came up with our new slogan-picture.

http://memegenerator.net/instance/34613476

Nedrom

02-09-2013, 05:47 PM

This thread is one of the reasons why I stopped raiding. It's just too damned complicated to burn as a monk. Whack a mole is just BS.

Things should be easier for us. I miss the days when all you had to care about was hitting speedfocus and dragon fang :P

Ishtass

02-09-2013, 08:54 PM

I disagree. I enjoy having the option for more skill = better parse. The problem is that the effort is far more than the payoff. We burn like crazy to be mediocre.

Aggememnon

02-09-2013, 09:13 PM

I disagree. I enjoy having the option for more skill = better parse. The problem is that the effort is far less than the payoff. We burn like crazy to be mediocre.

/agree
There is *nothing* more depressing than knowing that you pressed every button in the perfect sequence and did the absolute best you possibly could, and knowing that the tit to your left did little more than press /autoattack on, and beat the shit out of you.

Rasputyn

02-10-2013, 02:12 AM

This thread is one of the reasons why I stopped raiding. It's just too damned complicated to burn as a monk. Whack a mole is just BS.

Things should be easier for us. I miss the days when all you had to care about was hitting speedfocus and dragon fang :P

The problem isn't limited to monks. Every class in EQ has to do ridiculous things to max out DPS. That's probably helped necros stay good for so long, because the devs flat out can't do what it takes to duplicate top end necro parses.

Monks need a boost but we really aren't miles off where we need to be. The problem is when beastlords are anywhere close to us, there becomes literally no reason you'd ever want a monk over just adding another beastlord.

Mages+wizards needed some love and they got it. Monks really just need some of the baseline type upgrades we missed the last couple expansions and we'll be back in decent shape. But it's a problem when the most obvious places to boost monks(crit rate) have been refused so many times that now Elidroth is in auto-denial mode whenever we mention it.

moscato

02-10-2013, 02:56 PM

I get put in the appsThatCan'tRunAStraightLine, druid, enchanter, pally groups because I play a monk.

this is so familiar i'm going to start drinking right now to numb the pain.

also, what about glyphs? i burn 20 (ok, like 6) of them sumbitches a night just because i'm depraved. where is the best (most +dps) to use them? i don't have 7th.

Maereax

02-10-2013, 03:50 PM

this is so familiar i'm going to start drinking right now to numb the pain.

also, what about glyphs? i burn 20 (ok, like 6) of them sumbitches a night just because i'm depraved. where is the best (most +dps) to use them? i don't have 7th.

I'm right there with you man, lets just say fuck it and start with shots

Glyph with anything that isn't terror/eye. Speed, iron and heel all gain benefit from it, iirc

tanecho

02-10-2013, 04:00 PM

I thought glyph didn't stack with shaman epic, since they are both crit damage increasing effects. So glyph after shaman epic ends, waiting for the next one, I believe.

Gorkeyah

02-10-2013, 05:31 PM

I've been thinking they should just add some more infusion aa's for a higher burn dps boost. Simplest way to do it.

tanecho

02-10-2013, 06:11 PM

I believe it was one of the earlier requests in AA chat, and they said no to both increased power and hastening it.

Rasputyn

02-10-2013, 06:25 PM

Infusion boost would be nice, but it doesn't really help our top line burn.

Gorkeyah

02-10-2013, 06:36 PM

Infusion boost would be nice, but it doesn't really help our top line burn.

huh? Isn't that speedfocus with infusion? Would seem to be the most straight forward way to increase that burn without monkeying with unexpected side effects of other changes.

Rasputyn

02-10-2013, 07:33 PM

No, Terrorpalm is better(Diamondpalm also was better).

Gorkeyah

02-11-2013, 12:37 AM

Terrorpalm is a good upgrade, while the speedfocus burn is largely stagnate this expansion, but it seems more like close to speedfocus rather than better, and diamond wasn't close that I recall.

Rasputyn

02-11-2013, 05:33 AM

Terrorpalm is a good upgrade, while the speedfocus burn is largely stagnate this expansion, but it seems more like close to speedfocus rather than better, and diamond wasn't close that I recall.

I'm not sure what you're doing differently, but with raid h2hs Diamondpalm was a nice chunk better than speed focus. Speed focus is currently nice because of the short re-use and as a 2nd disc to back up Terrorpalm, but it's not what does the most damage for us.

Gorkeyah

02-11-2013, 11:06 AM

Well I haven't tried to measure a difference, so I can't say you're right or wrong. I can parse them, but that's not the same as being in a dps group, so it might be difficult to prove it reliably unless there's a substantial difference where my palm burns are almost always better.

Since I've been giving prefrence to speedfocus, it's probably getting the most adps. In any case, when speed ends and I start palm, my dps has gone down during the burn until terror where now it seems to hold about the same. But, like I said, that isn't necessarily a fair comparison because some of the adps that might have faded by then.

Ughbash

02-11-2013, 11:41 AM

I'm not sure what you're doing differently, but with raid h2hs Diamondpalm was a nice chunk better than speed focus. Speed focus is currently nice because of the short re-use and as a 2nd disc to back up Terrorpalm, but it's not what does the most damage for us.

Are yo stacking Infusion and Second Spire with Speed focus?

I have found that combo is our best.....

Damn don't make me go parse shit for a class I am tired of :(

Archus

02-11-2013, 12:06 PM

No, Terrorpalm is better(Diamondpalm also was better).

I'm pretty sure this is dependent on what other burn buffs are going at the moment. I recall another thread here discussing this awhile back. The way I recall it was that Diamondpalm was situationally better for the first time than Speedfocus. The upgrade to Terrorpalm may have made it better more often or perhaps always, but I don't think any new parses have been done. That's the way I recall it based on board posts, but if you have parses that determined otherwise, I'd love to see them.

EDIT: Did quickie search and could find no parse in any of the results. Mostly just conjecture. The thinking was if you have HH effect of any kind, DP and, by extension, Terrorpalm would be better. If no HH effect, then SF better. Other than short parse length issues, this is probably not too difficult to parse to at least get an idea of how close these two are now.

Terrorpalm is the upgrade, so you wouldn't use Diamond now. Speed focus got outpaced last year when we got Diamondpalm.

Archus

02-11-2013, 03:02 PM

Terrorpalm is the upgrade, so you wouldn't use Diamond now. Speed focus got outpaced last year when we got Diamondpalm.

You keep saying this, but I'm still waiting for proof. I suspect what you are saying only applies when we're under HH effect, but I'll try to do some mini parses to compare TP and SF.

Maereax

02-11-2013, 03:06 PM

You keep saying this, but I'm still waiting for proof. I suspect what you are saying only applies when we're under HH effect, but I'll try to do some mini parses to compare TP and SF.

TP vs SF sustained is also on my list of things to parse out. It's a long list at the moment.

Rasputyn

02-11-2013, 03:13 PM

I'd definitely suggest that all of you parse terrorpalm(+ support) and compare it to speed focus(+support) for raid burns. Again, I can only verify terrorpalm is better in my situation(raid gear, group make up and so on).

Aggememnon

02-12-2013, 08:05 AM

Empirical evidence from me - if hh from BL is running, I always hit *palm. My reasoning is that is hh almost as good as SF, but with all the mods running too from *palm, with shm epic etc. I seem (to my mind) to get a better burn that way.

Gorkeyah

02-12-2013, 12:09 PM

Can anyone recall the various HH levels?

Speed:
Fists of steel:
Zerk?
Bard?
Beast?

Seems like there's a variety of ways to get it, and they don't stack. Best I'll be able to do on a parse is lock the fists of steel proc to simulate some adps from some other class, but I'm not sure how it compares. And I suppose I can glyph as a mini-shaman epic.

Rasputyn

02-12-2013, 12:16 PM

Can anyone recall the various HH levels?

Speed:
Fists of steel:
Zerk?
Bard?
Beast?

Seems like there's a variety of ways to get it, and they don't stack. Best I'll be able to do on a parse is lock the fists of steel proc to simulate some adps from some other class, but I'm not sure how it compares. And I suppose I can glyph as a mini-shaman epic.

I would prefer that they retune fists of fury to a +1 swing per round mechanic so that it a) stacks with SF and b) allows us to gain benefit from the constantly expanding hh effects of other classes. Speed focus is IMHO an iconic ability for our class and I'd like to keep the unique 25 hh effect.

tanecho

02-12-2013, 02:45 PM

You know, one of the ways to HELP our burst DPS, now that HH is being given out to everyone, would be to return our Speed Focus to somethign unique. Something that STACKED with other HH effects.

If you could stack 25 hh with 15 hh you could get to 2150% haste. That would be comically overpowered. Would probably get us instantly killed too.

Gorkeyah

02-12-2013, 03:19 PM

By those numbers, it seems a spell locked fists proc is good enough for that portion of the adps. I'll still only have a glyph instead of epic, and no ranger/rogue things, however. Maybe this weekend I'll get to parsing.

Ughbash

02-13-2013, 08:37 AM

If you could stack 25 hh with 15 hh you could get to 2150% haste. That would be comically overpowered. Would probably get us instantly killed too.

Lets assume 20 delay weaposn for simplicity sake.

With 225 haste we get down to 8.8888 delay.

With 25 HtH we get down to 3.8888 delay (a little over 500 haste)

With 40 HtH we get down to .888 Ok, you are right was a thought I had without doing the math my bad.

Though if they made it stop at 35 rather then 40 (sort of like how bard overhaste of 30 stops at 225) would drop us to 1.888 which woudl basically a little more then double our speed focus burst (whch is what I was looking for).

Ughbash

02-13-2013, 08:44 AM

I would prefer that they retune fists of fury to a +1 swing per round mechanic so that it a) stacks with SF and b) allows us to gain benefit from the constantly expanding hh effects of other classes. Speed focus is IMHO an iconic ability for our class and I'd like to keep the unique 25 hh effect.

Interesting way of looking at it.

How would it work for our sustained though?

Currnetly lets assuem we get 4 swings a round on average. With this we woudl get 5 swings. At 200 haste that woudl be 5 swings a second.

Now our current fist of fury when active gives 15 hh effect. At 200 haste we get 4 swinngs every .7 seconds.

So in 7 seconds we get 40 swings (old way) vs 35 swings (new way).

This will help us on burn due to the stacking but actually HURT us on Sustained.

Now if we had Fist of Steel KEEP the 15 hh and add that I think it might work. I know it was shot down but I would really like to see Fist of Steel become an always on AA at some point.

tanecho

02-13-2013, 09:16 AM

They hate hundred hand effects, they keep talking about some mysterious bug with them, which I assume is the fact that they grow exponentially instead of linearly with normal haste. If possible, I'd want to know if it is possible to get a +2 swing mechanic. I know +1 exists, berserkers have it on some disc. The reason for it is that I feel our burn weakness isn't seen in their calculations or simulations because we do not gain as much from ADPS as others do. If we got the full monty from beastlord fury in our current situation, we would be more competitive on burns. Instead we miss out generally on the largest benefit (15HH) because we're either running 25HH from Speed focus, or we're tuned around having 15HH about 60-70% of the time anyway from fists. Also, keep in mind your calculation assumes 100% uptime on fists of steel, if +1 alone is insufficient, maybe +1 and double the proc rate might be, since it does not have 100% uptime.

So basically, I want us to figure out some way to get to our current passive DPS, while removing our passive hundred hands effect. I think this alone would make us competitive again by increasing our speed focus burn, and allowing more ADPS benefits. So essentially, we would not be asking for an upgrade, just a sidegrade that allows us to synergize like all other melee do.

Things to avoid:
Triple attack boosts
Flurry boosts
Hundred Hand effects
+% damage modifiers (we have so many of these already)
+# damage modifiers (we have so many of these already)

Rasputyn

02-13-2013, 01:34 PM

So basically, I want us to figure out some way to get to our current passive DPS, while removing our passive hundred hands effect.

This suggestion is really a bad place to start. I don't know why anyone would be in favor of that.

Ishtass

02-13-2013, 01:35 PM

This suggestion is really a bad place to start. I don't know why anyone would be in favor of that.

Because HH is one of the biggest forms of adps others get, and we don't see any of it because we have it going already.

Ughbash

02-13-2013, 04:39 PM

This suggestion is really a bad place to start. I don't know why anyone would be in favor of that.

I'd be in favor of it :) Now yo know two people tanechjo adn me.

This would let us get benefit from HH ADPS that other classes bring to a group.

Rasputyn

02-13-2013, 06:45 PM

If you guys ask for Infusion of Thunder to be deleted, then we can also get more out of 7th year vet.

I don't see the point in trying to get rid of the useful stuff we already have, in the hope that Elidroth/Aristo will spend the time to undo their old work and also do new work and magically have it end up well for us. We can't complain that they ignore us and then also give suggestions in the most complicated way possible.

tanecho

02-13-2013, 06:57 PM

How do you propose we fix this then? The main form of ADPS currently is HH. We get as much HH as anyone gives. Do we request that everyone gets new ADPS? Do we ask for our DPS to match theirs even without the bonus from HH from ADPS? It seems like the simplest solution to me to replace 1 effect on 1 class with 1 effect already in existence.

Not asking for it to be deleted, asking for a change leaving us in the same spot while allowing us to get all of the shit that every other class that is lapping us on damage is getting. It is requesting a fix without an upgrade. If there is a simpler request we could make, I'm all for it, but they're very cautious of giving us anything we ask for that could be construed as a straight buff.

Rasputyn

02-13-2013, 07:14 PM

The absolute easiest way to adjust monk DPS is by improving our melee critical hit rate. Our base crit rate of ~20% is absolutely ridiculous and by far the lowest of any DPS class.

We can get it boosted in literally a dozen different ways, depending on exact tuning needs.

tanecho

02-13-2013, 07:16 PM

I'm just trying to come up with things that we haven't already been told no to. Crit rate would be fantastic, as it would also increase the value of glyphs and our synergy with shaman.