From completely removing it, and going forward with 2 stances, i would prefer another sort of flavor for this. Arms gets battle/prot stance and fury gets berserk/prot stance by default when swapping specs. To make them feel somewhat different, while enhancing the spec feeling, you could have something like battle stance gives 5% dmg reduction+5% 2h weapon dmg and berserker gives the extra rage for dmg taken+5% crit. This way they are not the same, arms gets abit more survival, fury doesnt get that but gets rage to push it through dmg as it should feel plus helps with crit/enrage at low percentages and devaules it slightly at higher levels.

Adding crit to a fury-exclusive zerker stance would be nice. But they won´t do the dmg reduction/rage from dmg taken part on the stances anymore. It´s way too hard to balance. But you´re right - they could probably move some of the passive spec bonuses (like 2h weapon dmg) onto the stances.

From completely removing it, and going forward with 2 stances, i would prefer another sort of flavor for this. Arms gets battle/prot stance and fury gets berserk/prot stance by default when swapping specs. To make them feel somewhat different, while enhancing the spec feeling, you could have something like battle stance gives 5% dmg reduction+5% 2h weapon dmg and berserker gives the extra rage for dmg taken+5% crit. This way they are not the same, arms gets abit more survival, fury doesnt get that but gets rage to push it through dmg as it should feel plus helps with crit/enrage at low percentages and devaules it slightly at higher levels.

That wouldn't work. The idea is to stop people taking extra damage to get rage.

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Originally Posted by burk23

Adding crit to a fury-exclusive zerker stance would be nice. But they won´t do the dmg reduction/rage from dmg taken part on the stances anymore. It´s way too hard to balance. But you´re right - they could probably move some of the passive spec bonuses (like 2h weapon dmg) onto the stances.

If anything that'd be worse because any time you went to def stance you'd take a larger hit in damage output. Much better to leave them as passives and let you "dance" freely. If people wanted Fury's Battle stance to rename to Berserker I guess thats ok, doesn't make a difference to anyone but you when hovering over the tooltip though.

I like the direction druid tanks are going for WoD, where you generate more Rage from attacks actively instead of passively.
They should do that for Battle Stance, where abilities (Mortal Strike + another ability for Arms/Bloodthirst + another ability for Fury) generates a ton of Rage, but auto attacks will generate little.

For Berserker Stance, I like the suggestion of reducing GCD to 1sec to make combat feel more fast-paced/reckless. In contrast to Battle Stance, Brskr would generate more Rage from auto attacks than with special attacks (kind of like live Battle Stance).

That wouldn't work. The idea is to stop people taking extra damage to get rage.

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If anything that'd be worse because any time you went to def stance you'd take a larger hit in damage output. Much better to leave them as passives and let you "dance" freely. If people wanted Fury's Battle stance to rename to Berserker I guess thats ok, doesn't make a difference to anyone but you when hovering over the tooltip though.

That would be as a free rage when there is aoe dmg, and its easy to set it up. Whenever there is aoe dmg you generate %rage so you wont go and stand in the fire to get more rage. Yes the "5% dmg red on battle stance" was just a placeholder could be something else like 5% ignore armor or w/e. To the def stance getting a hit in output, it should be like that. You are on battle/zerg stance, depending on spec, when you want that 20% reduction you should take small hit to your output, its a choice. You take less dmg but you loose those 2 perks, say free rage/armor pen weapon dmg/crit respectively. Will make the choice dancing between the 2 more wise and you could say somewhat more in depth play. Cause atm if your are arms and go def you loose too little in output. That isnt very interesting either. You basically get an almost free -20% with little impact.

To terminal, if zerg stance reduced the gcd to 1sec straight of the bat would make haste crap, we need haste to do more for us not less.

If anything that'd be worse because any time you went to def stance you'd take a larger hit in damage output. Much better to leave them as passives and let you "dance" freely. If people wanted Fury's Battle stance to rename to Berserker I guess thats ok, doesn't make a difference to anyone but you when hovering over the tooltip though.

Well but wouldn´t that solve the problem, that Warriors are not losing enough dps by switching to def-stance in pvp currently?

I could imagine a new spell derived from the berserker stance. It would be a passive spell which activates after the third or fourth CM debuff under the fight.(you will get a Berserker Stance buff)
When berserker stance buff is on, you can use Furious Slashes. Furious Slashes is a spell which is channeled like the fists of fury of a monk for x second. It's do moderate damage(or whatever) but after channeled it's increase the duration of the next colossus smash debuff by x sec , or it will be a new bleeding debuff on target which will increase the damage dealt to the boss by other spells.
This is something similar to the activation to the raging blow, combined with a fists of fury , but of course a less damage than these. The spell is only good for the blood debuff or the CM debuff increase, and of course a new filler spell or soemthing like that.

BTW I don't really miss the berstance. It was good in wotlk, but since it's just something that we don't really need at all. But it would be awesome that we get a similar new spell like this.

i think i just prefer 2 stance system, specially considering how hard is to fit 3rd one; zerker was never something "special" anyway, to begin with.

Please do not misunderstand this as a flame, but since when are you playing warrior? oO

Originally Posted by magnuzze

considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.

Originally Posted by Mojo Risin

But I think it's a serious problem that a lot of people keep farming Mounts without any result for years. It could probably invoke some bad kind of anxiety and in some cases even depression, to be honest.

Well but wouldn´t that solve the problem, that Warriors are not losing enough dps by switching to def-stance in pvp currently?

Maybe in PvP but not in PvE. PvP is very different, and if they wanted to fix that kind of scaling I'd suggest they institute a PvP only modifier (D Stance reduces less damage done by players for example).

Still has no bearing on the OP which is an idea for an alternative Berserker Stance.

Please do not misunderstand this as a flame, but since when are you playing warrior? oO

I understand what you are trying to say there ;] but being forced to switch stance just to be able to use certain skills and then switch back to b.stance (usually being done all by macros at that) with no further gameplay to it is not something i'd call "special" (or being forced to sit in zerker just so you can dps as fury), mandatory- yes, but still not something worth the fuss.
If anything MoP incarnation of three stance system was best and "clearest" (or at least v. good, comaring to other expansions) it could get.

I understand what you are trying to say there ;] but being forced to switch stance just to be able to use certain skills and then switch back to b.stance (usually being done all by macros at that) with no further gameplay to it is not something i'd call "special" (or being forced to sit in zerker just so you can dps as fury), mandatory- yes, but still not something worth the fuss.
If anything MoP incarnation of three stance system was best and "clearest" (or at least v. good, comaring to other expansions) it could get.

Your prior post was poorly worded but I agree. Our stances now are better than they've been before, but they still had two distinct issues which directly led to the removal of Berserker Stance.
1) Lack of synergy - Choice whether to mitigate with D Stance or gain rage through BzS.
2) "Scummy" play - Taking unneeded damage to gain rage, canceling absorbs to take more damage.

The second of which was the biggest issue. Its funny that DK's are keeping AMS but they are limiting the Runic gain a lot, and its own cooldown makes it less powerful than BzS, so that does make a difference.

I'd love to see BzS stick around but I can't think of any easy way to let it happen.

Assuming that zerker stance is now completely removed for warlords, the only way I could imagine it staying in the game is maybe by renaming battle stance into berserker stance for fury and making it do what battle stance does for us right now. It would be a purely cosmetical change for the "feel" of the class...
Arms -> battle stance
Fury -> berserker stance
Then maybe bake some fury passive into it, so their tooltips at least aren't the same...

That aside, if I could make a wish for my perfect zerker stance I would wish for 10% increased movement speed during zerker stance and obviously some kind of trade-off to it...maybe damage taken or something more creative than that.
I dont like the idea of it affecting our rage generetion since that has changed a lot for warlords (shout and zerker rage dont generate rage, haste affecting gcd), so I would just have it generate rage like battle stance and move its perks/drawbacks into other areas of warrior gameplay.

Assuming that zerker stance is now completely removed for warlords, the only way I could imagine it staying in the game is maybe by renaming battle stance into berserker stance for fury and making it do what battle stance does for us right now. It would be a purely cosmetical change for the "feel" of the class...
Arms -> battle stance
Fury -> berserker stance
Then maybe bake some fury passive into it, so their tooltips at least aren't the same...

That aside, if I could make a wish for my perfect zerker stance I would wish for 10% increased movement speed during zerker stance and obviously some kind of trade-off to it...maybe damage taken or something more creative than that.
I dont like the idea of it affecting our rage generetion since that has changed a lot for warlords (shout and zerker rage dont generate rage, haste affecting gcd), so I would just have it generate rage like battle stance and move its perks/drawbacks into other areas of warrior gameplay.

As an alternative, Berserker Stance could increase haste/attack speed/armor penetration by X% for Fury or similar bonus to fit the nature of the "berserker". As for the trade-off, one suggestion would be, for instance, to make the warrior, "vulnerable", reducing his/her armor/health/<insert stat here> by X% (5-10%; - depending on the bonus advantage).

As an alternative, Berserker Stance could increase haste/attack speed/armor penetration by X% for Fury or similar bonus to fit the nature of the "berserker". As for the trade-off, one suggestion would be, for instance, to make the warrior, "vulnerable", reducing his/her armor/health/<insert stat here> by X% (5-10%; - depending on the bonus advantage).

Yeah, I'd like berserker stance to make the warrior feel more like a berserker. Especially since arms and fury are barely different at all.

As an alternative, Berserker Stance could increase haste/attack speed/armor penetration by X% for Fury or similar bonus to fit the nature of the "berserker". As for the trade-off, one suggestion would be, for instance, to make the warrior, "vulnerable", reducing his/her armor/health/<insert stat here> by X% (5-10%; - depending on the bonus advantage).

That doesn't encourage dancing though, if it had the same rage gen as Battle, you'd just sit in that stance all the time instead of battle, if it didn't you'd only swap during CS or BS and swap back after. For PvP nothing would change either as you would most likely just sit in D stance as you do now.

The idea would be to make a Berserker Stance that you would choose to dance in or out of, but not just sit in. Re naming Battle to Berserker might be sentimental and all but doesn't actually DO anything. Same goes for making a "Fury only" stance that you'd sit in while Arms sits in Battle. You are still left with only two real choices of stances.

Passive dmg increases don't make the game any more interesting. People would just sit in the better stance and would cause blizzard to balance our dmg around that making it punishing to not be in that stance. The current state of berserker stance encourages scumbag play which they didn't like. Anything beyond passive buffs and dmg taken would be difficult to implement. There isn't a whole lot they can do with it so I don't see anything wrong with removing it.

Passive dmg increases don't make the game any more interesting. People would just sit in the better stance and would cause blizzard to balance our dmg around that making it punishing to not be in that stance. The current state of berserker stance encourages scumbag play which they didn't like. Anything beyond passive buffs and dmg taken would be difficult to implement. There isn't a whole lot they can do with it so I don't see anything wrong with removing it.

I'm rather against the stance dance thing myself. I'd prefer somethin akin to changing the gameplay of warrior when using it. Like how Gladiator stance completely changes one skill to be a damage skill.

That doesn't encourage dancing though, if it had the same rage gen as Battle, you'd just sit in that stance all the time instead of battle, if it didn't you'd only swap during CS or BS and swap back after. For PvP nothing would change either as you would most likely just sit in D stance as you do now.

The idea would be to make a Berserker Stance that you would choose to dance in or out of, but not just sit in. Re naming Battle to Berserker might be sentimental and all but doesn't actually DO anything. Same goes for making a "Fury only" stance that you'd sit in while Arms sits in Battle. You are still left with only two real choices of stances.

Well, since Berserker Stance currently isn't in Warlords at all anymore Blizzard seems to like the idea of one offensive and one defensive stance and no choice at all regarding offensive stances. That is why I would still welcome renaming Battle Stance into Berserker Stance for fury over removing it completely...though you are right that it doesn't actually do anything.

For Berserker Stance to be a true choice and not a mandatory condition for DPSing it shouldn't affect ability availabilty since that would only lead to people macroing it into everything (as it used to be in the past...no skill involved in macroing stuff).
Also it obviously can't straight up buff our character strength, since that would make it our 'default' stance to sit in while discouraging dancing out of it. Same goes for its drawback in reverse I guess.
With the new healing model where people can sit at <100% health for longer periods of time it would seem to me as though adding some kind of damage taken mechanic to it is pointless too and probably the reason it has been removed. Outgoing damage just doesn't seem to be spikey/high enough in WoD to keep it in its current state.

Generally I like the idea of Battle Stance being our default stance and Berserker Stance being something we can dance in and out of but this thread demonstrates perfectly how difficult it is to satisfy that in an interesting way...