Dude... it was $150. I spent WAAAAY more than that just for my food and booze alone and I ate like an impoverished person and drank Coor's Light all week. Throw in the cost of the PVC, miscellaneous supplies & coverings for my shade structure, the cost of building my shower & evoporation pond, fuel to transport it all, etc... you got off super cheap. If $150 chaps your ass to this degree, maybe next time you should opt for an afternoon picnic instead of a weeklong adventurepartyblowoutextravaganza in the middle of the desert.

I've been biting my tongue on this subject, but I just have to finally chime in. First off, I'm damn glad dontflipmejack isn't with Barbie Death Camp. Our dues, and expenses, are an open book to anyone who wishes to see them (and is a member in good standing with our camp). Two sets of eyes, at least, see every check coming in and every expense going out. What do we charge in dues? I'll tell you: $60 if from outside the USA or paid before June 1st; $85 after that. Period. The average Barbiebarian paid $60. I never once heard anyone complain that we were "robber barons" or ripping people off. Nor did I have a single person ask me to see the books, even though I did bring to the playa our ledger showing every single penny being brought in and every single penny that was spent. In fact, when I asked random people who visited our camp what they thought our camp dues were, $125 was the cheapest answer I got. When I told them $60, jaws generally dropped. Yes, Felony and I are as honest as the day is long. We have nothing to hide. Would everybody agree that every penny we spent was properly allocated? Probably not. $40 for three cases of beer for Fizzball? Some would consider that an embarrassing waste of money. $117 for pizza to feed the troops who set up the Village? If you arrived after Sunday you saw none of that and could consider it an extravagance. But what people don't see are the hidden costs: $1300 a year in storage fees just to keep the Barbies and infrastructure; $600 in registration and insurance for the art cars; $800 in gasoline to power the art cars, generators, etc. And this yahoo is sniveling about a lousy $150 or whatever? STFU crybaby and stay as far away from us as humanly possible. What an asshat.

Advice for those reading who are wondering what to do next year, as the OP already has made their own decision: Don't choose a large camp if what they do does not bring you joy. If you feel the camp will not be a good steward of your money, don't give them any. Choose a camp more in line with the principles... yours and/or the BMORGs. Paying dues doesn't make you a core member of the camp, and unless you were a friend before the event, you may just be a cash cow. It happens.

I was in Barbie Death Camp. It was a joyous experience. The $60 ($180 for three of us) wasn't about the amenities so much as the pleasure of being with the people we camped next to, and admittedly, an address for my art project. Doc could have shoved the money up his ass and rubbed it all over the Man for all I cared. What he does and provides is not cheap. Hell, what I do isn't cheap. It is what it is.

Granted, we may go independent next year (all five or six of us). Reasons other than money, and certainly not because we don't love the Barbarians. But BDC would be a prime choice of requested neighbor. I'd probably drink more of their booze while visiting than I did while residing there, heh.

dontflipmejack wrote:After working a full shift at the bar serving cheap @ss mccormick vodka and other cut rate liquor I was offered a pint of ben and Jerry's icecream

A whole pint? For one shift? That's an awesome gift!

As a virgin, I was careful not to sign up to work any volunteer shifts. But I picked up a few and they were without a doubt the best experiences of my burn. Cooking bacon for two hours, working perimeter at BWS in the Friday dust storm, Arctica on Sunday when the cashier I was slinging for decided we were the pants off line for men. I understand one's not always in the mood for a work shift, but giving food/ice/booze to the people has got to be one of the most fun things to do out there.

Dr. Pyro wrote:I've been biting my tongue on this subject, but I just have to finally chime in. First off, I'm damn glad dontflipmejack isn't with Barbie Death Camp. Our dues, and expenses, are an open book to anyone who wishes to see them (and is a member in good standing with our camp). Two sets of eyes, at least, see every check coming in and every expense going out. What do we charge in dues? I'll tell you: $60 if from outside the USA or paid before June 1st; $85 after that. Period. The average Barbiebarian paid $60. I never once heard anyone complain that we were "robber barons" or ripping people off. Nor did I have a single person ask me to see the books, even though I did bring to the playa our ledger showing every single penny being brought in and every single penny that was spent. In fact, when I asked random people who visited our camp what they thought our camp dues were, $125 was the cheapest answer I got. When I told them $60, jaws generally dropped. Yes, Felony and I are as honest as the day is long. We have nothing to hide. Would everybody agree that every penny we spent was properly allocated? Probably not. $40 for three cases of beer for Fizzball? Some would consider that an embarrassing waste of money. $117 for pizza to feed the troops who set up the Village? If you arrived after Sunday you saw none of that and could consider it an extravagance. But what people don't see are the hidden costs: $1300 a year in storage fees just to keep the Barbies and infrastructure; $600 in registration and insurance for the art cars; $800 in gasoline to power the art cars, generators, etc. And this yahoo is sniveling about a lousy $150 or whatever? STFU crybaby and stay as far away from us as humanly possible. What an asshat.

That LOUSY $150 comes out to $18,000 - $20,000 so dont make yourself look like a asshat by acting like it's "pocket change" b/c it's not. I wasn't in your camp so I can't comment on what you did or did not do. BUT I sure know the term robber barons is aptly applied to my camp and probably MOST others given SOME of the comments here (not all).

Using your example I dont care whether $100 was spent on pizza, drugs, or hookers - JUST LET ME KNOW!!!! And when the camp leader shows up in TWO 1/4 million +++ RV's paid for or partly paid for with camp dues and I'm sleeping in my tent yeah it's going to tick me off.

And what's with all the name calling?? Apparently I'm the "bad guy" here too just for asking??? Well sorry your highness

Basically what needs to happen here is the Borg needs to require ALL camps fully disclose where and what camp dues were spent on. No it doesn't have to be down to the penny but at least somewhat accurate - maybe something like the afterburn report issued by BM.

This may not be a popular suggestion for some (robber barons) but everyone (who paid dues) has a right to know . And if you're involved with BM just to make a killing $$$ wise those people need to leave - they are already violating the spirit of BM, profiteering is not allowed.

That is something I **would** go to court for, for the greater good, just like the Borg is suing pershing county, (I'm not saying I will win and of course I will try reaching out to the higher-ups first), but I think BM has a responsibility to provide better guidance on this subject.

dontflipmejack wrote:Basically what needs to happen here is the Borg needs to require ALL camps fully disclose where and what camp dues were spent on. No it doesn't have to be down to the penny but at least somewhat accurate - maybe something like the afterburn report issued by BM.

This may not be a popular suggestion for some (robber barons) but everyone (who paid dues) has a right to know . And if you're involved with BM just to make a killing $$$ wise those people need to leave - they are already violating the spirit of BM, profiteering is not allowed.

That is something I **would** go to court for, for the greater good, just like the Borg is suing pershing county, (I'm not saying I will win and of course I will try reaching out to the higher-ups first), but I think BM has a responsibility to provide better guidance on this subject.

This makes no damn sense at all.

Which camps? Mine doesn't even do dues, we're an autonomous collective with a dash of communism and a cool camp mom (at least this year). Who's "finances" are we going to disclose? What are "dues" anyway? Is it dues when each of us is told or asked to bring a specific item for the use of the group? The BMORG isn't a government, they don't have any authority to force any groups to do anything outside the playa (which is where all that disclosing would happen.) I guess they could refuse to place a camp, but all that will do is drive camps away, either from the event or from the placement-only areas.

Stop whining and vote with your feet. Consider this year a $150 lesson in what not to do. Be glad it wasn't more.

Which camps? Mine doesn't even do dues, we're an autonomous collective with a dash of communism and a cool camp mom (at least this year). Who's "finances" are we going to disclose? What are "dues" anyway? Is it dues when each of us is told or asked to bring a specific item for the use of the group? The BMORG isn't a government, they don't have any authority to force any groups to do anything outside the playa (which is where all that disclosing would happen.) I guess they could refuse to place a camp, but all that will do is drive camps away, either from the event or from the placement-only areas.

Stop whining and vote with your feet. Consider this year a $150 lesson in what not to do. Be glad it wasn't more.

Then obviously in your case when there are no dues and material is on loan no financial transaction occured. The goal wouldn't be to put any kind of spending limits in place or to otherwise discourage spending but rather to simply provide for disclosure. If 90% of you camps material is on loan or is already paid for by the camp from prior years (shade structes,sound systems, showers, tables, chairs, ect ect) and the work is performed by volunteers BUT the camp is still taking in big bucks, that is something that needs to be disclosed.

I think the Borg kind of created a monster by looking the other way on this subject. And yes, just like how a college campus oversees fraternities, if you dont abide by the rules then you dont get placed.

JayBobBoy wrote:A $150 payment does not, in any way, grant you a controlling interest in the camp and therefor....FUCK OFF.!

I never said "controlling interest" ROBBER boy, but I and other members should have a right to know how dues are spent and the camp should be OBLIGATED to disclose this info. What have you got to hide????

Maybe everyone here should read the 3rd principle of Burning Man "Decommodification." I know the armchair lawyer types will pick it appart to justify their SLEEZY ways but anyone with a ounce of common sense knows that robber baron camp leaders need to go, they violate the very principles Burning Man was founded on.

dontflipmejack wrote:Basically what needs to happen here is the Borg needs to require ALL camps fully disclose where and what camp dues were spent on. No it doesn't have to be down to the penny but at least somewhat accurate - maybe something like the afterburn report issued by BM.

This may not be a popular suggestion for some (robber barons) but everyone (who paid dues) has a right to know . And if you're involved with BM just to make a killing $$$ wise those people need to leave - they are already violating the spirit of BM, profiteering is not allowed.

That is something I **would** go to court for, for the greater good, just like the Borg is suing pershing county, (I'm not saying I will win and of course I will try reaching out to the higher-ups first), but I think BM has a responsibility to provide better guidance on this subject.

if this bothers you, you need to stop going to burningman. your suggestion above is ridiculous.

Just out of curiosity, what were you expecting to get for your $150? $150 doesn't go anywhere near as far as you apparently think it does. I get it, you're bitter that the camp leaders spent some dough on plush accomodations, so what? Did that adversely effect your burn in any way? Sure, I'd say it's sleezy on their part, but if they're the ones building and deconstructing the camp for everyone's use every year, cleaning and storing all of the supplies during the other 51 weeks, coordinating everything, providing entertainment, inviting folks in to the camp that they started and maintain, so what? You paid taxes to be part of that camp and the camp government is living in a little better house than you are for a week because of it. I personally wouldn't care at all. "Hey MAN, I can't use the shower in your RV, why do you get to?" Uhhh... because I showed up a week early and set all of this shit up for you to enjoy, thanks. Now enjoy your ice cream and wipe away your tears." Pashaw man, quit dwelling on the haves versus have nots and get out and have an awesome burn!

ACfromSAC wrote:cleaning and storing all of the supplies during the other 51 weeks,

This right here is a pretty huge expense that a lot of people don't think about!!!I don't know about other cities, but in Denver a 10x10 concrete box with a roll top door on one side is like $120 bucks a month.... and for 12 months a year? SHiiieeeeet!We're a small camp and a 10x10 didn't work for us, we still had to store shit in peoples attics and family members sheds.

Why don't ya stick your head in that hole and find out? ~pieholePlan for the worst, expect the best. Make the most out of it under any conditions. If you cannot do that you will never enjoy yourself. ~CrispyDave

Maybe everyone here should read the 3rd principle of Burning Man "Decommodification." I know the armchair lawyer types will pick it appart to justify their SLEEZY ways but anyone with a ounce of common sense knows that robber baron camp leaders need to go, they violate the very principles Burning Man was founded on.

You know that moment when you should just ignore the asshole in the room and hope he gets the point and goes away... Yeah, I've never been good at that.

Look here princess, like mom always said- if you think that EVERYONE in the room is being an asshole, you really need to reevaluate because the only asshole present is you.

Okay my little sparkly pony, lets talk principles. Because you are the only person I see shitting on principles around here.

Here it is:Decommodification: In order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to protect our culture from such exploitation. We resist the substitution of consumption for participatory experience.

Soooo... Did your camp have a Sobe tent that I missed? was it sponsered by Costco? Did they have a Krug champagne bar? Nope. They didn't. Did you pay by the drink? Did they have you buy your apples at a commissary? Nope. You decided to pool resources with a larger camp- and got by all accounts way more than you paid for. They told you where the money went by your own admission, and you randomly decided that they were lying to you. I'm pretty sure you knew what the amenities and responsibilities were when you signed up to camp- it was your second year right? So I think we all know there is something missing from this story.

You have decided to get your glitter panties in a twist over something. And despite the fact that VERY knowledgable people on the subject (nod to Doc) have told you that the dues and budget were WAY reasonable, you still persist in stomping you feet and getting red in the face.

By your suggested placement, I bet they are probably a pretty awesome camp. They were amazingly self reliant and organized a bar, a shade structure, drinks and snacks for 130 people. That's amazing. And in the true spirit of gifting, when you did a shift, that I'm sure you were told about in advance as being part of camping with them- they gave you some ice cream as a thank you. You decided to be a fucking brat and demand their property instead. When they told you no, you pitched a fit, and continue to do so.

So, back to principles. Is it just me or isn't it always an asshole trying to scam other peoples stuff that starts whining about decommidification. It's like the battle cry of the leech. You certainly are misusing this principles good name in this moment and you've taken a big ol steaming dump on a few others. let's review: Participation: Your bar shift is not a chore. It's you helping make the burn better. Community: Work together to make things better. Don't be enough of an ass that your campmates feel the need to throw you out. Gifting: You don't have to accept a gift if you don't like it but you certainly also don't get to demand other peoples stuff.

Seriously, I think you should take the advice of EVERYONE on this forum. Get. Over. It.

ACfromSAC wrote:Just out of curiosity, what were you expecting to get for your $150? $150 doesn't go anywhere near as far as you apparently think it does. I get it, you're bitter that the camp leaders spent some dough on plush accomodations, so what? Did that adversely effect your burn in any way? Sure, I'd say it's sleezy on their part, but if they're the ones building and deconstructing the camp for everyone's use every year, cleaning and storing all of the supplies during the other 51 weeks, coordinating everything, providing entertainment, inviting folks in to the camp that they started and maintain, so what? You paid taxes to be part of that camp and the camp government is living in a little better house than you are for a week because of it. I personally wouldn't care at all. "Hey MAN, I can't use the shower in your RV, why do you get to?" Uhhh... because I showed up a week early and set all of this shit up for you to enjoy, thanks. Now enjoy your ice cream and wipe away your tears." Pashaw man, quit dwelling on the haves versus have nots and get out and have an awesome burn!

I expected CAMP dues be spent on the CAMP, why is this such a difficult concept for SOME people to comprehend??? If WE-US-THE CAMP has $18,000 to $20,000 lets spend it for EVERYONE to enjoy. Sure we had several shade structures (already paid for from last year) , a bar (paid for), sound system (on loan), the big stuff was either already paid for or on loan.

Instead of SHARING said camp finances with everyone, scumbag camp leader felt the need to OVER INDULGE himself and HIS crew, b/c he thought it was HIS camp. That's the whole thing right there. HIS camp wouldn't be possible without OUR dues.

how it should have worked is said $18k-20K should have went to better liquor, hot showers (i can hear the minions gasping already.....come on, it's not that hard, we have the $$$$$$) better food (all we had was chips, peanuts and some fruit while said SCUMBAG and crew were feasting on steak and seafood ALL week - sure they COULD have paid for it themselves but probably didn't.

And lastly, why am I the bad guy just for asking to see the budget??? The 1st day on the playa they were already calling me a narc b***tch, is asking a question that big of a deal?

And then they took it WAY too far by mooning me at 4am when I was sleeping in my tent and cursing me out. I know some people think it's a joke but if I were camping in the mountains somewhere and someone is unzipping my tent at 4am my CCW is coming out and it just goes downhill from there.

Soooo... Did your camp have a Sobe tent that I missed? was it sponsered by Costco? Did they have a Krug champagne bar? Nope. They didn't. Did you pay by the drink? Did they have you buy your apples at a commissary? Nope. You decided to pool resources with a larger camp- and got by all accounts way more than you paid for. They told you where the money went by your own admission, and you randomly decided that they were lying to you. I'm pretty sure you knew what the amenities and responsibilities were when you signed up to camp- it was your second year right? So I think we all know there is something missing from this story.

Well here it is, the armchair lawyer. How can you HONESTLY say you are participating in a "decomodified" community when you're skimming HUGE sums from the camp? I know some might call it PROFIT but in the context of BM I call it what it is - the skim.

So, back to principles. Is it just me or isn't it always an asshole trying to scam other peoples stuff that starts whining about decommidification. It's like the battle cry of the leech.

Leech??? Their story changed several times. First they said they needed the larger RV's b/c they were diesels and could pull more. Then they said the early arrival crew deserved the plusher accomodions as a reward. THEN they said they paid for them anyway. Well I really doubt they paid for the RV's from their own pocket and they lie so much I wouldnt believe them anyway.

And is it really that much to ask to use the custom built marbled RV shower? Oh thats right, US PEASANTS arn't allowed to. I should just be happy with my cold showers and sleeping bag despite the fact I paid for part of THEIR RV.

You and many posters on here sound like VERY selfish people. The new "ME" generation here, just as long as it's good for YOU and screw everyone else

Surely you were told what perks you would receive when you were looking into joining this camp. If you didn't ask, then you're ... Not so bright! If you did ask... and still chose to give them the $150, even though you were not satisfied with the information you received... then you're ... Not so bright!

Remember . . . YOU chose to join that camp. YOU chose to give them your money. So, unless the camp set up and amenities provided were COMPLETELY different then what was promised (I.e. they promised champagne and filet minion every day but fed you franks and beans instead) you have nothing to complain about.

--
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday... now you know why.

dontflipmejack wrote:You and many posters on here sound like VERY selfish people. The new "ME" generation here, just as long as it's good for YOU and screw everyone else

Pot, meet kettle.

I think you should sue the camp for... whatever it is you can sue them for, and then sue the Org for not protecting you from the evil camp you freely joined & paid dues to (except, of course, that the back of your ticket frees them from all obligations to you), sue pretty much everybody. Hell, sue us because we're not agreeing with you. Try to get the Org to shove rules down every other camps throat because you're not happy with the way the one you joined was run.

Seriously.

Stop talking and do it if you're in the right. So far all you've shown on here is that you're an entitled whiner who didn't get the trip to Fantasy Island they think they deserved for their measly $150.

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Well here it is, the armchair lawyer. How can you HONESTLY say you are participating in a "decomodified" community when you're skimming HUGE sums from the camp? I know some might call it PROFIT but in the context of BM I call it what it is - the skim.

One more time for the slow kid. The vast majority of informed individuals on this forum deeply believe they are not skimming. The evidence you have provided is not convincing in the slightest.

Their story changed several times. First they said they needed the larger RV's b/c they were diesels and could pull more. Then they said the early arrival crew deserved the plusher accomodions as a reward. THEN they said they paid for them anyway. Well I really doubt they paid for the RV's from their own pocket and they lie so much I wouldnt believe them anyway.

It couldn't possibly be that ALL of those reasons are true and when you childishly kept demanding answers they tried to provide more reasons. RVs do have a hauling limit. People who work 20x as hard as you and stay in that harsh environment longer might want a little more creature comfort- if they decided to pay for that, as they indicated they did- I have no reason to deny them that. If you want to be in an RV so bad, rent one. It's not a difficult process to obtain.. paying for it, driving it, cleaning it, etc is much less simple. Good luck on working that out for 150 bucks.

You and many posters on here sound like VERY selfish people. The new "ME" generation here, just as long as it's good for YOU and screw everyone else

I see. I'm selfish because I think your "crusade" is ridiculous. I'm selfish because I think you are an ungrateful little piece of garbage who couldn't get over his green eyed envy enough to enjoy the burn? You don't know me sweetheart, and for that I am eternally grateful, because I really doubt you get more palatable in person. I'm a lot of things, selfish is not one of them. I think you could call me a bitch pretty easily, and you wouldn't be wrong- but I fail to see how anything I've said rings as selfish. Whatever, we've already covered the flaws in your "logic".

There are several types of people in camps. 1)Heavy lifters/Camp Moms- people who build the shade structures and haul all the water and plot and plan for months. They take care of their campmates needs- buy them alcohol, and food and haul shit, store shit, etc. They have the bandaids, and sunblock and extra ibuprofen. They don't need thanks, because they like it- they do it because it makes them feel awesome. However, they certainly don't need to deal with shitheads. 2) Good solid campers: people who don't have the desire/time/energy to do everything, but are happy to help out on projects and pitch in where and how they can. They have the grace to realize that if they want something different than the heavy lifters provide, they should bring it themselves, suggest it nicely as an idea for next time or at least not bitch too much. 3) Useless leeches/shitheads/fucktards: People who like to complain and consider any small thing they do to be worthy of endless praise. They suck up resources and give back only negative energy. They don't get it. They thrive on fucking up other peoples burns. These are the asshole that sue people, kick art cars, cut in line at food carts and pee under sculptures.

Camps can structure themselves any way the camp leaders see fit, for the most part. That can range from zero financial transparency to fully transparent accounting. If it matters to you, you should have asked those questions and gotten that information prior to joining the camp. Complaining about it after the fact seems a little whiney, IMO.

Personally, I'm against the idea of establishing any kind of rules regarding camp finances or accounting. Use your head and buyer beware and don't be stupid and all that. I've never posted the financial/accounting details for my camp, either publicly or even privately among campmates. Instead, I post to campmates a 'fees and expectations' document that outlays what the dues are and what will or won't be provided as part of that. They get that early on in the process, and are invited to hit me up if they have any questions whatsoever. We don't really have open enrollment, new members are nominated by existing campmates and the prospects get that doc if/when we invite them to join.

As others have mentioned, everything costs a lot more than you may think. I know quite a few camp leaders, and for the most part we put in more of our own money than the average campmate, plus countless hours of unpaid labor to design and build whatever it is that the camp is bringing out to the desert. Regardless of that, value is subjective. What you may feel was a poor value others may think is a great deal (or vice versa). If you feel you made a poor decision this year and didn't get a great value for your camp investment, you have nearly a year to find something you think will be a better value - or figure out how to do it better yourself.

dontflipmejack wrote:You and many posters on here sound like VERY selfish people. The new "ME" generation here, just as long as it's good for YOU and screw everyone else

Pot, meet kettle.

I think you should sue the camp for... whatever it is you can sue them for, and then sue the Org for not protecting you from the evil camp you freely joined & paid dues to (except, of course, that the back of your ticket frees them from all obligations to you), sue pretty much everybody. Hell, sue us because we're not agreeing with you. Try to get the Org to shove rules down every other camps throat because you're not happy with the way the one you joined was run.

It seems this type of behavior is almost encouraged when there are no rules. I only mention a lawsuit b/c I don't think borg will listen to ONE person, but if say taken to court for, I don't know, failure to protect/false advertising or something along those lines, then MAYBE just the prospect of spending at the low end thousands of dollars just to answer the lawsuit that they and everyone else already knows is based on their own principles, MAYBE they'll just add financial disclosure as a requirement.

Sure some robber baron camp leaders will be pissed, their minions are already howling on here but I think something needs to be done to stop this from truning into some kind of disneyland/swap meet rave in the desert.

Win or lose I would be a very unpopular person on the playa but I just might do it. There's probably a 95% chance the borgs lawyers will steam roll over me in court but so what??? They're SUING to get what they want with Pershing Co. I think it's their responsibility to prevent these poacher robber baron camp leaders from operating in violation of BM principles at the burn.

It sounds like this board is full of robber baron/camp minions, must be nice to be in the "in group" did your camp daddies give you extra ice cream to "cool the burn???"

I'm starting my own camp next year. Like the Socialist Republic of BRC or something like that. And unlike many here I wont profiteer from others and shame on anyone who does. If we get $1k or $5k or $10k in dues it will be spent on the GREATER GOOD or returned, I have a REAl job and I dont need to earn $$ through deceptive means.

Again shame on all of you who think it's okay to profit from Burning Man!