<quoted text>He did not list them in the wrong order..Baptism..Confirmation..Eucharist..That would be the normal order for any adult who becomes a Catholic, and the normal order in the Eastern Rite and Orthodox Churches..Rob

<quoted text>If only they would speak of more positive happenings, they would see the world in a whole new light.Why do you think they dwell in destruction, hatred, hope for a downfall of others, etc?And they say they teach love? How is that, when all they see is suffering upon themselves and others ('sin-sicked world')?These are all great reasons why I can't be a "Christian".I guess I am way to positive for them.

If you do not live in fear or complete hatred of yourself, you cannot be very religious.

<quoted text>Before one is Saved they cannot even understand Matt 25 let alone do what it says.

This is very easy to understand:

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.(Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

<quoted text>He did not list them in the wrong order..Baptism..Confirmation..Eucharist..That would be the normal order for any adult who becomes a Catholic, and the normal order in the Eastern Rite and Orthodox Churches..Rob

An after-thought to the qualifiers.

If Tony has listed them in the order you think exists, then that would make you both Orthodox.

I wasn't raised Orthodox, but Anglican.

Does it cause you concern that I pointed out the difference?

It shouldn't, because the rituals are to show devotion to your organization more so than to an individual's salvation, if one is to understand why you had to point it out.

Truth wrote:Whether you want to believe it or not, Michael, you have sin in your life of some kind....There was NO ONE perfect except for Jesus....<quoted text>Hi Mike.Catholics want everyone to still have sin, so they can use it against another in order to think they are better. It is that simple.How else do you think they get their followers? If they infuse a belief unto a person, that they "fall short of God", or the person is feeble or weakminded in the eyes of "God", or even "still in sin" - it's their way of getting into the person's mind, to help embed their unfounded "laws".The tactic has been used for centuries. Unfortunately for these folks, there are too many of us that have seen through the misnomers and have realized that true salvation comes from within, by how you treat others, and how this treatment is expressed.Like you, I can't think of any "sins" I've attained or accumulated. If I do, I'll post them here for all to see.:o)

Just so you know I always give you positive judgies so you have an idea who is giving out the negative ones.

The topic today about having to accept Jesus to be saved.

The Dali Lama a man who teaches peace and love to all, travels the world teaching us to treat each other with kindness and respect. A man who loves all of nature and wouldn't swat a fly, A man who has no wealth, and teaches all that we are all equal, however the christian teachings by those on this forum have the Dali Lama going to an eternal Hell of pain, suffering and torture because he doesn't accept Jesus.

<quoted text>~~~YOU WROTE.."The Baptism of Blood IS an exception to the necessity of water baptism."I BELIEVE BOTH SHOULD BE DONE ..where possible..The Bible speaks of the -->washing of regeneration..(IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS ....WHICH SHOULD COME FIRST)THAT BAPTIZES US INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST....Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:The baptism of/in the blood of Jesus...-->IS THE WASHING OF REGENERATION.Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,-->by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;Tit 3:6 -->Which he shed (HIS BLOOD) on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.WATER BAPTISM...(BEING BAPTIZED INTO GOD'S CHURCH,THE BODY OF CHRIST ) SHOULD FOLLOW.(I am not referring here to a earthly denomination..I am speaking of becoming a part of the body of Christ.)OUR JUSTIFICATION, BY FAITH IN HIS BLOOD.

confrinting good friend

I believe you misunderstand the Baptism of Blood. It is blood shed by martyrs before they could be formally baptised into the Church. It was meant mainly for people who became Christians but were killed before they could be baptised at the beginning of the Church under persecution. I suspect this goes on today in such places like China, Saudi, and N. Korea....

As for the washing of regeneration....That is the baptism of being born again.... but Titus 3:6 which you write, "

>Which he shed (HIS BLOOD) on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;", is reference to the Holy Spirit, not "HIS BLOOD", thus the meaning is completely different. Instead it is:

<quoted text>It is not 'us guys' who are making the decision as to what 'else' besides FAITH in Jesus Christ is REQUIRED for salvation. It is YOU GUYS who teach that "baptism is salvific". It is not what we do AFTER we have trusted Christ that determines our salvation..IT IS THE FACT THAT WE HAVE TRUSTED CHRIST! I don't understand why 'you guys' can't get it. My sole basis for my eternal security is not in what (anything) I will do or have done, it is soley in my faith in HIM and what He has done and what He will do. All that I do is a RESULT of the lifechanging experience I have had as a result of knowing Him. Baptism/no baptism; church attendance/no church attendanc; Tithing/not tithing; sharing my faith/not sharing my faith. NONE OF THESE THINGS CAN ADD ANYTHING TO PURCHASE MY SALVATION. JESUS PAID IT ALL. NOW try to understand, all of these things SHOULD be a part of the CHRISTIAN life. BUT NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE SALVIFIC.

Ah yes. Sola fide.

I think about that false teaching everytime I see the family of a deceased gang member on tv, saying "I know he's in a better place.. God needed a player for his football team up there" etc. They been duped and should pray for the soul of their brother gone astray. That's the mentality you all introduced to our country. Everyone who believes is Jesus is saved... They live a sinful life believing that to be true..

who="Michael"Clay says......1. We Baptize our infants because we feel Christ wants us too.2. Catholics are required to make another Holy Sacrament. Confirmation. This is like Baptism, but we do it on our own accord at an age of maturity.Michael says......Infants are baptized so they don't grow up and use their own personal knowledge to decide their own religion or none.Confirmation is not done on your own accord. I was confirmed like you and there was NO WAY my parents would have it any other way. Could you Clay tell your parents you didn't want to be confirmed?Get real!**********Someone likened Confirmation to the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. Confirmation is EXPECTED of children at a certain age. Do ANY of them prophesy, speak in tongues, or do miracles when they are confirmed by a man?No comparison...KayMarie

<quoted text>If you do not live in fear or complete hatred of yourself, you cannot be very religious.

Yep - that is why I am Spiritual.

- I can't hate myself - for I am all that I have and have enjoyed my life very much - I can't think that I am always suffering, because I refuse to accept defeat or regret. - I can't live in fear - because I probably would always be looking over my shoulder.

What I have done, is live for the moment and feel the excitement of what is to come, all the while, promoting the positive things in life through love and kindness.

<quoted text>Just so you know I always give you positive judgies so you have an idea who is giving out the negative ones.The topic today about having to accept Jesus to be saved.The Dali Lama a man who teaches peace and love to all, travels the world teaching us to treat each other with kindness and respect. A man who loves all of nature and wouldn't swat a fly, A man who has no wealth, and teaches all that we are all equal, however the christian teachings by those on this forum have the Dali Lama going to an eternal Hell of pain, suffering and torture because he doesn't accept Jesus.makes no common sense to me.

Because the Dali Lama is a sinner who has not accepted Christ. He's a pagan who worships a false religious belief which is condemned by Sacred Scripture.

Plus, you really know nothing of the man. Here's some insight into his character that you seem to either be blind to or haven't heard about:

"Recent Wikileaks information has provided a fascinating insight into the Dalai Lama’s mindset before he fled Tibet for India. As this article shows, the Dalai Lama tentatively requested the USA, through his emissary Tsepon Shakabpa, for military support in 1961. Shakabpa requests, in a meeting with Fraser Wilkins, the First Secretary of the US Embassy in New Delhi:"

<quoted text>We don't know for sure if the thief was baptized or not....But, if he was baptized, it was under John the Baptist (baptism of repentance.)He could not have been baptized under the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, as Jesus had not been crucified yet.John 1:6-86 There was a man sent from God whose name was John.7 He came as a [[[witness to testify concerning that light,(Jesus)]]] so that through HIM all might believe.8 ~~~He himself WAS NOT the light;~~~ he came only as a WITNESS to the light (Jesus.)Mark 1:44 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.**********While on earth, Jesus had the authority to forgive sins.....Matthew 9:66 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man,“Get up, take your mat and go home.”

Truth good friend

Back to the Repentent thief...,

In a sense, the timing here is a point of focus. The repentant thief, declared Jesus blameless and asked Jesus, to remember him, when he came into His Kingdom....

Jesus then died.

The thieves died latter as their legs had to be broken.

Thus in a sense the repentent thief died while in desire, which is known as Baptism of Desire.

<quoted text>It doesn't really matter what you think. You are but a small speck in the universe and you are not God. God has spoken quite often of eternal punishment. If you don't like to hear that, that's tough.

The truth of the matter! The clever catholic church.

The clever catholic church.

....The church has convinced followers that celebacy of the clergy is some gift handed down by Jesus. Not true. The rule was invented by the church to prevent their priests/bishops from producing heirs. Same with the nuns. The church made them a title BRIDES OF CHRIST so no loving husband or children for them. When clergy/nun dies their property would most often be will back to the church thereby enriching the rich even more. CLEVER!

...On the other hand the catholic laity are ENCOURAGED MARRY and to have lots! of babies because that means more people will be born (indoctrinated) into the faith which means more money on the collection plates and a bigger power base.

<quoted text>Just so you know I always give you positive judgies so you have an idea who is giving out the negative ones.The topic today about having to accept Jesus to be saved.The Dali Lama a man who teaches peace and love to all, travels the world teaching us to treat each other with kindness and respect. A man who loves all of nature and wouldn't swat a fly, A man who has no wealth, and teaches all that we are all equal, however the christian teachings by those on this forum have the Dali Lama going to an eternal Hell of pain, suffering and torture because he doesn't accept Jesus.makes no common sense to me.

Don't ya know that's when you apply believe nothing you hear and half of what you see..........lol

<quoted text>Just so you know I always give you positive judgies so you have an idea who is giving out the negative ones.The topic today about having to accept Jesus to be saved.The Dali Lama a man who teaches peace and love to all, travels the world teaching us to treat each other with kindness and respect. A man who loves all of nature and wouldn't swat a fly, A man who has no wealth, and teaches all that we are all equal, however the christian teachings by those on this forum have the Dali Lama going to an eternal Hell of pain, suffering and torture because he doesn't accept Jesus.makes no common sense to me.

Thanks Mike for the encouragement - I tried to do the same when you and others bring up good points, but sometimes Topix doesn't like me clicking and the result are "invisible icons".

;o)

Good example, but sadly, through the expressions of others on this forum, you can see that he will be going to "hell".

*sighs*

I don't think he will - as I believe if one can sacrifice themself for others [actions]- by showing and exhibiting the kindness and love received, his salvation is already written "the Book of Life", whether so-called "Christians" believe it to be or not.

<quoted text>Yep - that is why I am Spiritual.- I can't hate myself - for I am all that I have and have enjoyed my life very much- I can't think that I am always suffering, because I refuse to accept defeat or regret.- I can't live in fear - because I probably would always be looking over my shoulder.What I have done, is live for the moment and feel the excitement of what is to come, all the while, promoting the positive things in life through love and kindness.No religion needed.Self.Cheers Sheep!

Oh you have a "religion" alright. It's called gnosticism. A heretical one nonetheless.

<quoted text>hojo wrote:<quoted text>The thief was not subject to the New Testament command to be baptized into Christ’s death (Romans 6:3-4), just as Moses, Abraham, and David were not amenable to it. They all lived prior to the cross under different law codes. They could not have been baptized into Christ’s death—because He had not yet died.ME:but hank and HOJO, Jeus had already died and so the Malefactor(I prefer that word)was now under the Plan of Salvation that God had set forth centuies before.this event is a {clear indication}that a person does not have to be Baptsied to enter into Heaven.I mean lets face Facts. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT God who forgives sin, as someone brought up the other day and used these words "go and sin no more".if the sins are Forgiven, nothing else is Required,ONLY THE BLOOD WASHES AWAY THE SINS OF A PERSON, IF WATER TOOK AWAY THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD,PEOPLE WOULD BE SAVED AS SOON AS THEY TOOK A BATH.LETS GET REAL ABOUT THIS AND USE SOME GOOD OLD COMMON SENSE.just because He told others to go and make disciples and Baptise them in the name of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost, doent mean that He cant do as He wishes.AFTER ALL, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE CREATOR WHO ISNT BOUND BY THE DEFICIENCES OF MANKIND.I BELIEVE IN BAPTISM, BUT YOU HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN OR IT IS JUST WASTED TIME.WITHOUT BEING BORN AGAIN, ALL THE WATER IN THE OCEANS WILL NOT HELP YOU GET INTO HEAVEN.THAT IS HOW I SEE IT BECAUSE THAT IS HOW IT IS.

Yes, Preston, I hear what you are saying.....

I believe the thief (male factor)(I also call him the forgiven thief) was saved when Jesus spoke these words to him:

Today, you will be with me in paradise....

What wonderful truths of salvation was spoken by Jesus.

We should all want to hear these wonderful words.

As Jesus was still alive and speaking to the thief and Jesus had the authority to forgive sins while on earth, this is what counts.

White House Tax Hike:USA Labor Law, The Constitution, and demands of Natural Law: what Mother Nature, God, or Whatever Power decreed to be the reality of the real world, democracy, capitalism, the US Constitution, and free, fair, and affordable commerce and common sense demands.Demands every Stockholder, corporation, farmer, business, outsourcer sweatshop, and nonprofit, tax-exempt, organization and Church; markets the cost in the wholesale and retail price of his or her product and service; of every worker, consumer, and taxpayer fund total cost of USA existing in real world. With money derived from same percentage of their wages (union contract), healthcare, pension, investment and independent business profit.This enables every worker, consumer, and taxpayer to pay healthcare insurance premium or pay healthcare provider. Pay ALL taxes and pay for every product and service they use for life. With money derived from wages, investment profit, and independent business profit.And enables every parent to educate, love, nurse, nurture, discipline, protect, and provide; for every child (job) they conceive. And fund schools, infrastructure, local and national security, government services, and etc.; with money derived from wages, investment profit, and independent business profit.The majority of we the Government of this Representative Republic that vote and the nonvoters that sit on their dead hands and whine; Successfully reelected Obnoxious President, Governor, Representatives of US the Government, County Commissioners, Township Trustees, Mayors, City Council, School Administrators and Board Members.That holds Union workers, consumers, taxpayers, and America’s grandchildren’s children, Government employees, Parents, Teachers, Veterans, Police, Firemen, and Fathers disqualified for affirmative action with white skin, Representatives deny Collective Bargaining Rights accountable.To fund Illegal drug users and Illegal Immigrants, lottery, casino, and keno losers, unemployed Union workers replaced with nonunion workers, Human Traffickers, waitresses that pander for life for $2.00 per hour, slaves in enterprise zones, low-income child labor, consumers, and taxpayers, volunteers without wages, and nonunion workers willing to work for fewer wages than they can afford life. That pays with welfare checks, food stamps, housing vouchers, and Medicaid.Pay sales tax on the more stock dividends (money) OPEC Nations, Enron Stockholders, Wal-Mart Stockholders, Hillarys, Chinese, Foreign and Domestic Investors and Stockholders (money marketers) market quarterly. In the wholesale and retail price of every product and service Human Beings use for life. And School Boards and Government needs to build, maintain and operate schools, infrastructure, and provide local and national security, and Government services. That gets only product or service.Needed to measure and maintain the strength and growth of this UNAFFORDABLE economy and distribute money Human Beings cannot digest, burn in internal combustion engines, or burn to heat and cool their American Dream. Into OPEC Nations, Enron Stockholders, Wal-Mart Stockholders, Hillarys, Chinese, Foreign and Domestic Investors and Stockholders portfolios.Defying USA Labor Law, the Constitution, and Realities demands is bankrupting USA. Makes free, fair, and affordable commerce IMPOSSIBLE; Makes funding schools IMPOSSIBLE; Makes balancing every budget IMPOSSIBLE; Makes Union workers, consumers, taxpayers, and Americas grandchildren's children life UNAFFORDABLE; and created Ohio’s $1.35 trillion budget deficit, the $40 trillion social security and the $16 trillion national debt. America’s grandchildren’s children are responsible to pay Chinese, Foreign and Domestic Investors and Stockholders interest with this debt until they are 18 years old.America’s grandchildren’s children cannot afford life and pay this debt with the $7.25 per hour Government mandated labor wage in a hundred million years.

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