rodglas
Sodom and Ghomorah were bad a great many immoralities, including wanting to rape men. Here you have two sins according to the much later recored law from God -rape and homosexuality.

And I didn't like Lot offering his daughter As someone it was thought to somehow be better or closer to God's plan I assume, or its trying to say Homosexual sex/ape is worse than Heterosexual rape/sex outside of marriage.

I didn't either. That is a pretty clear message about the relative value of rape victims, and I don't like it.

Besides, a male raping another male is a rapist, but not necessarily a homosexual. Studies of prison rape show that in prison culture the victim is the one labeled homosexual, not the perpetrator. Rape, whether of a male or female, is an act of violence that uses the penis as a weapon. The victim can be whoever happens to be available.

Nonny

The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting? I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice. Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

I don't think anyone considers Lot's "comprimise" a good thing, but there is a certain cultural imperative to Lots actions. It was his duty as a host in that culture to protect his guests even before his own family.

The people of Sodom and Ghomorah knew that which made the offence that much worse.

^yeah, and then his daugthers, who are supposed to be good enough to be spared wrathful godly death, rape their father. I have many, many issues with the story of Sodom and Gommorah. It was one of the main bits of the bible that made me stop being christan.

We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse -- Rudyard Kipling

^yeah, and then his daugthers, who are supposed to be good enough to be spared wrathful godly death, rape their father. I have many, many issues with the story of Sodom and Gommorah. It was one of the main bits of the bible that made me stop being christan.

And isn't that a creepy story?! Apparently the cultural imperative for women to bear children was so overwhelming that they were willing to break the incest taboo to accomplish it.

And in one of the weirder twists of biblical interpretation, there are men, hopefully not a lot of them, who believe that this story grants them the right to demand the sexual favors of their own daughters.

Nonny

The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting? I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice. Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

^ gawd, I'm goignt o have to read that part again, I remember some daughter's having sex w/ their father, I cannot remember the reason however or that it was an extension of the Lot story..... ugh. Though I'm pretty sure its late, it needs to get back to the library Maybe I'll buy my own copy .... my mom has a bible, but its somewhere buried in the all the boxes int eh garage since we moved....

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

^basically Lot's daughters decided that they really wanted to have kids and since their husbands died with the destruction of Sodom, they thought that they and their father were the only people left. As such, they got their dad really drunk so that on one night one daughter went to bed with him and he thought he was sleeping with his dead wife, then the other daughter did the same the next night.

Quote

And in one of the weirder twists of biblical interpretation, there are men, hopefully not a lot of them, who believe that this story grants them the right to demand the sexual favors of their own daughters.

Oh, ICKY ICKY ICKY

I don't see how this really works out, since it specifically said (at least in my version) that the only reason Lot wasn't sinning was because he truely believed he was having sex with his wife. Therefore, knowingly having sex with your daughter is still forbidden. Sounds more like sexual preditors trying to find an excuse for their behavior rather than the Bible condoning such an action.

Still, ICKY!!!!!

We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse -- Rudyard Kipling

Misinterpretation of the Biblehas been ( and is being) used to bend people to a certain "will". When Jesus began his ministry, we learn that the Ten Commandments (which were still in effect) were given to man to show him how far he had fallen. Sin could never be stopped, only paid for with the blood of Jesus. THAT is what these kind of people want to ignore. Now, I'm talking about these so called Christian groups that preach hate. The old testament is full of rules and regulations meant for the Isrealites, NOT the general population. The Ten Commandments are listed as God's rules.....period. These are for everyone, not just the Jewish people.

Jesus taught love and compassion, not the hate these kind of people throw around. The hardest part for me was that a person might be a murder all of their life and just before they die, if they accept the Lord with all of their heart, they are saved. That's a hard one for me to get around sometimes, but I do understand that God is more concerned with our eternal life, not this one. THAT gives me comfort.

Is homosexuality a sin? Maybe, maybe not since it isn't in the Ten Commandments but it is covered by Moses. The thing to remember is that either way God loves all of us and longs for the best for our eternal lives.

Do I think homosexuals are going to hell? Well, many so called Christians are going to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. many homosexuals and non also. It has nothing to do with your desires, it has to do with a person's relationship with Jesus as Savior. PERIOD.

I think the hardest part for many to believe is that Jesus loves them no matter what. A person who accepts Jesus as their personal Savior finds that their life changes, as does how they see the world, for the best.

Again, I'm not talking about hate filled morons like this attorney andher "clients", I'm talking about honest believers who try and do no harm.

Now, as far as interpreting the Bible goes, the new Testament is pretty clear if we listen to Jesus' preaching. The bottom line is always thet to be saved you only need to accept the Gift of Salvation that God gave us through his son. I think that is where many people have a problem. They can't believe it's a gift. just accept it is all that is needed. No life changes are made at that time. But, be aware that anyone that truly gives themselves to the Lord will find their lives changed in many wonderfull and sometimes scary ways. I jut remember that God does all for my good, the good of my eternal life, not necessarily this flimsy earthly life.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound preachy. I just wanted to maybe clarfy my feelings to all of this and why. I don't hate homosexuals, I don't judge them either. I feel for them as Jesus has told me, they are my brothers and sisters either way.

okay, I'll back out now. Sorry for the length of this post (as well as any typossince I am NO typist.)

Well for the most part anyway. The differance being that if you want a relationship with Christ that means you should want to follow the "rules." You can fall and make mistakes but you try to follow Jesus' teachings.

This has been an interesting discussion on the Bible/gay rights so I thought I'd put my couple of cents in. Just so you know where I am coming from, I'm a major in political science and a strong proponent for gay rights and I'm atheist. I am no expert in any of these subjects by any means but I do try my best to learn all I can. Firstly...

1) Gay Rights: Being atheist has caused a slight dilemma for me in seeing both sides of the issue because I can't see why it's wrong from a 'morality' point of view. These people are breaking no laws (unless you happen to live in a state or country that has anti-sodomy laws and even then they'd have to catch you at it first...). My biggest beef with anti-gays is the rather creepy factor that there are people out there who protest what you do in the privacy of your own home. If they are protesting public display of affection...well, I could say the same for hetero-couples groping and mauling each other in public. Why is that more acceptable then two people who happen to be the same gender, exchanging a kiss, holding hands or hugging?

2) My personal views on the Bible will likely offend many so I won't go into details. I just want to say that if you choose to use the Bible as your personal guide to salvation, then by all means, go ahead and do so. However, I don't think it should be used as a blueprint for moral behaviour in this day and age because much of it is irrelevant in context and to be imposed in the political arena.

I hope I didn't come off sounding as pompous; I just have a very 'authoritative' writing style; considering my major, I've got this down to a fine art.
I also don't mean to use this as a political soapbox if that's how it sounds (I don't know; it doesn't sound like to me).

Rhys Hayden

(It has come to my attention that there's another Rhys posting so feel free to refer to me as 'Hayden' instead. I am female, just to be clear, but it won't offend me.)

Sounds more like sexual preditors trying to find an excuse for their behavior rather than the Bible condoning such an action.

Some folks excuse their bad behavior by twisting the bible around to suit themselves. Some folks condemn the natural behavior of others the same way. What really gripes me is that many of the same folks who condemn homosexuals because of some verse in Leviticus blithely ignore the words of their savior in the gospel of Matthew about divorce, adultery and remarriage. Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole, Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich come to mind.

Nonny

The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting? I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice. Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

The hardest part for me was that a person might be a murder all of their life and just before they die, if they accept the Lord with all of their heart, they are saved. That's a hard one for me to get around sometimes, but I do understand that God is more concerned with our eternal life, not this one. THAT gives me comfort.

Even harder for me is considering what happens to the victims, if they die cursing their murderer or their deity for the manner of their death. :pout:

Nonny

The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting? I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice. Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot