No other sport with a2-3 teir league system has it.. the NRL do, do they have a 2-3 teir system... arguably yes there are other clubs below the NRL who are there and playing in league below and they can apply when franchises and liscences are up for grabs.. Northern Irish Football has a system where there is a mix of liscencing and P&R similar to what we have but working slightly diffrently.. those are 2 off the top ofmy head. Not only that but the RFL can happily turn around and say 1. the aim is to have a larger franchised super league including most of the other teirs but it is a gradua process, would you rather wait 5 years for when your club us ready to step up or step up now and go bust? they have a long term plan the wording is very short term. 2. they dont care if no one esle does it, when the first sport in america had conferences did people say, you cant do that no one else does.. maybe but they were proved wrong it does work there.. just becuase it doesnt work in any other sport doesnt mean it wont work here for this sport.

there is not only one way to bring people back to the game.. for the last god knows how long there has been p&r ad the crowds have not been flocking to the grounds so why would bringing it back now suddenly see 3-4000 come through the doors.. its a non argument.. there are many ways to bring them back and that is needed to be done..

The crowds falling away due to liscencing.. the crowds hae been falling away a that level for years.. liscencing is not the issue apathy is and that was there before this all happened.

3. even if i agreed with your points on liscencing your 2nd point IMHO is daft.. the game has to expand, they have got it wrong int he past but as long as they learn from this then this is a good thing and expansion is important for the good of the clubs in the M62 corridor as well..

4. i dont actually agree with either of the points and the arguments IMO have too many holes in them.

1. For what it's worth, I'd like to see a return to P&R. That's an idealist "like" though as the difference between SL and Championship (or NL in the P&R days) sides is far too high, it was in P&R days and it would be again if brought back in. Every year in P&R you'd see the relegated sides releasing their Aussies and good players who would almost automatically go to the promoted sides meaning the club names changed but many of the players didn't. Until you get far more money into the Championship and raise the salary cap to a level that allows a full squad of full-time players then you've no hope of P&R working properly. That brings me nicely to your point 2:

(split into two parts)2a. Without Sky money, rugby league would collapse as a professional sport. Yes, we get Sport England money now but that's generally meant for almost everything bar the professional club part of the game. Unfortunately, that situation means that we have to dance a little to the paymaster's tune. I have sent a nice letter to ESPN asking them to consider bidding for rugby league, they have taken rugby union's Premiership this year and I made it clear that it wouldn't cost them anywhere near that amount to get a sport away from Sky that has significantly better BARB figures week-in, week-out. Even if they didn't get it, the bidding process would almost by necessity force Sky to pay more money to beat the competition; Sky get by far the best of the deal from rugby league, all it needs is a bit of competition to make them see this.

2b. You've obviously not been out of the M62 "heartlands" very often then in the last decade. When I first moved down to the south east of England, there were no rugby league clubs. Go to the RFL's club finder and type in London (as a good centre for the map) and change the number of results to 100, you'll see all the blue tags showing clubs that weren't there 20 years ago, change the number of clubs to see wider lists of new clubs. Don't forget that that club finder doesn't show the true picture, it doesn't show where clubs have gone from struggling to put out 13, never mind subs, to putting out multiple adult sides and youth sides. Are those who play outside the M62 heartlands not "true supporters"? To my mind these hard-working "missionaries" who have gone on to found successful small clubs outside of the heartlands have more right to the title "true supporter" than someone who is happy to abandon them in a consolidation on the heartlands.

Your petition post is a bit misleading as point 1 says that rugby league is mistreating those below SL but then you're happy to pull up the ladder with point 2 all bar abandoning the huge progress outside of the M62 heartlands. Alternatively, should your petition simply read "Dear RFL, please re-arrange things so that a few small northern clubs can get a better chance at SL and screw everyone else."

Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway

Are those who play outside the M62 heartlands not "true supporters"? To my mind these hard-working "missionaries" who have gone on to found successful small clubs outside of the heartlands have more right to the title "true supporter" than someone who is happy to abandon them in a consolidation on the heartlands.

Unfortunately, that's not an uncommon mindset. There are those who think that only born-and-bred Northerners deserve Rugby League and that nobody else can possibly be a 'true' fan or hold a valid opinion on the sport.

The whole wording of this petition could not be better designed to be ignored by the RFL. It comes across as paranoid, backward-looking and entirely negative.

Between the optimist & the pessimist
The difference is quite droll:
The optimist sees the doughnut,
The pessimist sees the hole.

You must have lived in the South a long time Craig, Fulham/Crusaders/Broncos/Harelquins are 30 years old next month. I recall a London amateur RL side playing a friendly at Belle Vue in 1969.

I was a bit rushed! I didn't intend it to be taken as black/white coverage of everywhere outside of the M62 corridor

To be more precise, I moved to Colchester in the early 90s with the army and did a good bit of hunting around to see if I could find a rugby league club in close range, I couldn't find one. Within a few years I noticed Ipswich but by then my injuries were getting the better of me and playing rugby bar the few invitational games was out. Since then, I've noticed clubs sprouting up all over. From where I live now, I can get to a rugby league game most weekends during the summer without too much effort, 10 years ago, I'd have had to have a pain of a journey into the wilds of London.

Edit: added 90s after early. Too rushed while trying to do 3 things at once!

Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway

I was a bit rushed! I didn't intend it to be taken as black/white coverage of everywhere outside of the M62 corridor

To be more precise, I moved to Colchester in the early with the army and did a good bit of hunting around to see if I could find a rugby league club in close range, I couldn't find one. Within a few years I noticed Ipswich but by then my injuries were getting the better of me and playing rugby bar the few invitational games was out. Since then, I've noticed clubs sprouting up all over. From where I live now, I can get to a rugby league game most weekends during the summer without too much effort, 10 years ago, I'd have had to have a pain of a journey into the wilds of London.

jesus i didnt realise how close to the truth futtocks was.. you were a northerner going down south and your first thought was.. right i have the arsenal ofthe british army at my disposal now i'll teach those southerners who think they can start up clubs in the south a lesson... where are they? are they in range? fire!!!!

jesus i didnt realise how close to the truth futtocks was.. you were a northerner going down south and your first thought was.. right i have the arsenal ofthe british army at my disposal now i'll teach those southerners who think they can start up clubs in the south a lesson... where are they? are they in range? fire!!!!

Other lads were out finding out the good night-spots and when the grab-a-grannie nights were on, my first thought was to find a proper rugby club!

Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway

Other lads were out finding out the good night-spots and when the grab-a-grannie nights were on, my first thought was to find a proper rugby club!

are you starting to see the error of your ways now that they are in black and white?

youd have only found 13 blokes running around a park anyway it was never, still isnt, real rugby and you wouldnt have been a true supporter anyway.. grab a grannie at least would have got results.. possibly.. and you wouldnt have ended up moderating this site.. you may have moderated an altogether different site!

Unfortunately, that's not an uncommon mindset. There are those who think that only born-and-bred Northerners deserve Rugby League and that nobody else can possibly be a 'true' fan or hold a valid opinion on the sport.

The whole wording of this petition could not be better designed to be ignored by the RFL. It comes across as paranoid, backward-looking and entirely negative.

The fact remains that most RL fans in the "heartlands" have chosen RL as their sport. There's plenty of premiership soccer in this area - Liverpool, Everton, Bolton, Wigan, Man C, Man U, plus the championship, 1st and 2nd division Yorkshire sides. There's top class Union at Leeds and Sale and any number of smaller clubs, but RL fans turn out in large numbers to support their teams.This can't be said of - say London - where there's been a club for nigh on thirty years - long enough to establish itself as the first choice sports team perhaps a small minority of Londoners, but nevertheless a significant minority. This simply hasn't happened. And yet the RFL has persevered with them through their various incarnations, and those of us in the heartlands who allegedly think only their opnions count have (AFAIR) never been consulted about their continued subsidised existence.Plus of course franchising, Super League, or summer Rugby. I don't recall as a regular "heartlands" supporter being asked my attitude on any of these major changes to the game. So rather than "paranoid," given their treatment by the game's administrators I'd rather use the adjective "loyal" if no one minds that is.

"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014

The fact remains that most RL fans in the "heartlands" have chosen RL as their sport. There's plenty of premiership soccer in this area - Liverpool, Everton, Bolton, Wigan, Man C, Man U, plus the championship, 1st and 2nd division Yorkshire sides. There's top class Union at Leeds and Sale and any number of smaller clubs, but RL fans turn out in large numbers to support their teams.This can't be said of - say London - where there's been a club for nigh on thirty years - long enough to establish itself as the first choice sports team perhaps a small minority of Londoners, but nevertheless a significant minority. This simply hasn't happened. And yet the RFL has persevered with them through their various incarnations, and those of us in the heartlands who allegedly think only their opnions count have (AFAIR) never been consulted about their continued subsidised existence.Plus of course franchising, Super League, or summer Rugby. I don't recall as a regular "heartlands" supporter being asked my attitude on any of these major changes to the game. So rather than "paranoid," given their treatment by the game's administrators I'd rather use the adjective "loyal" if no one minds that is.

Why should you be asked, supporters really do get ideas above their station. You are just a customer buying a product.

I don't recall Mars asking all their customers for permission to change the name of Marathon to Snickers.

Why should you be asked, supporters really do get ideas above their station. You are just a customer buying a product.

I don't recall Mars asking all their customers for permission to change the name of Marathon to Snickers.

Companies like Mars do market research amongst their customers all the time. As do most companies (never filled a questionaire in on your way back from Greece Dave?) So why don't the RFL seek the views of its customers? Frightened of getting the wrong answers perhaps.

"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014

Companies like Mars do market research amongst their customers all the time. As do most companies (never filled a questionaire in on your way back from Greece Dave?) So why don't the RFL seek the views of its customers? Frightened of getting the wrong answers perhaps.

Maybe they have bit they missed you out Geoff

A lot of Yorkshiremen believe that when God created the world, he made it with perfect balance.
He balanced the hot areas with the cold areas. the dry areas with the wet areas.
And, in creating Yorkshire, he created the most glorious place on earth - full of majestic beauty and sporting giants.........and for balance he created....... Lancashire.

Companies like Mars do market research amongst their customers all the time. As do most companies (never filled a questionaire in on your way back from Greece Dave?) So why don't the RFL seek the views of its customers? Frightened of getting the wrong answers perhaps.

I have filled in quite a few RL questionaires in my time, from the RFL, from the Wigan club and from other clubs.

They don't ask every single person who is a customer though do they, RL was one of the first sports in this country to use a research company to look into the future of the sport, over 40 years ago.