But the 86% uptime is the absolute maximum you can achieve. The reason why we don't have near 100% rip uptime in BiS gear is because it's advantageous to Ferocious Bite very aggressively so no combo points are ever wasted, and you'd have the exact same issue with trying to run a synced TF rotation, which means I doubt you'd be able to pass 80% uptime.

Realistically I think you'd be looking at something like 80%ish TF'ed uptime vs 92%ish random uptime which seems like not such an enticing option. You also have to consider that if you're spending your combo points on Rip during TF every time that would also mean that you average FB damage would go down.

Some very good points, I'm glad we're at talking about the same thing now lol

Ferocious bite is really REALLY weak though, you're right that its ideal to bite aggressively to not waste combo points, but I think you may be overestimating the importance of doing so. Personally I don't think that all the possibilities are perfectly represented in the sims - a sim will outdo a player on average but doesnt have the same kind of malleable logic that a real player does.

Looking at the numbers for conatzer, FB's DPET is only 16% of Rip's, so TFing rip is going to very nearly make up for that damage - if you add one shred it brings it about equal. If you don't already have a thrash up, thrashing that excess energy should actually put you ahead of using FB. Since in practice its hard to be perfect about clearcasting procs, I've found occasion to essentially do just that quite often.

My guild is kind of sucking atm and I havent got lucky enough to get any tier gier in LFR, so I can't give any anecdotal evidence for the efficacy of this, but I expect either way will net about the same dps for a real player, though a computer may see more benefit with the aggressive FB profile

@Conatzer: Sure, I never denied that the 4-piece bonus would increase rip uptime if that's what you're trying to imply.

If running a TF Rip rotation is better DPS, I'd happily adopt it, but it would be very hard to prove. Anything a player can demonstrate is very subject to RNG and many outside factors, while a sim is less likely to be able to pull such a thing off in the same way a player would.

My thought is that it would be equal DPS at best, probably lower, so why try to reinvent the wheel about something you'd have a very hard time proving? If there's one thing I know about making changes to the rotation it's definitely that changes that may seem like an obvious gain often result in a lost, anyone who's worked on rotations with SimC or similar will tell you this.

I do not mean to diminish your work, but you gave no explanation as to how you arrived at the figures you used to calculate the dps for each weapon. I see a sequence of (4) groups of numbers without any context.

I do not mean to diminish your work, but you gave no explanation as to how you arrived at the figures you used to calculate the dps for each weapon. I see a sequence of (4) groups of numbers without any context. Can we get additional sources to confirm this premise? If it is sound, OP should update the guide to reflect this shift in paradigm. For the longest time, ilvl dps was the largest factor in determining which weapon to use.

If you look at some simcraft results, you will notice how much agility has jumped up (getting close to weapon dps) as compared to previous expansions. For instance, the last time I ran simcraft I got weapon dps as 5.04 and agility as 4.37. Heroic Tiger has 1,294 agility and Normal Gao Rei has 1,223 (1,723 with the 500 agi gem). I'm not saying I back up his math, but it does make sense that they are very close.

~Has anyone experienced a bug while using HT from NS or PS? More specifically and most annoying what happens is during an opener I NS+HT before a Rip, but it shifts me out of cat. The HT goes off, is instant and I get my DoC buff, but I have to shift back into cat form.

~Has anyone experienced a bug while using HT from NS or PS? More specifically and most annoying what happens is during an opener I NS+HT before a Rip, but it shifts me out of cat. The HT goes off, is instant and I get my DoC buff, but I have to shift back into cat form.

Do you use a macro for NS+HT? If so, that will pull you out of cat form. I don't know why, but it might have something to do with the client not being able to detect NS before HS goes off, considering NS is off the GCD and the macro thus making them go off pretty much simultaneously. I doubt you will encounter that problem as long as you make sure there is a noticable amount of time between the cast of NS and HS.

I ran simcraft with my current gear scaling, used 10000 iterations to be more accurate, took agi, weapon damage, mastery, and then haste/expertise, and multiplied them by the stat values, which is how I came up with those numbers. In the thread named Gao Rei vs H Screaming Tiger, I actually posted a picture of said stat values used to do so.

Do you use a macro for NS+HT? If so, that will pull you out of cat form. I don't know why, but it might have something to do with the client not being able to detect NS before HS goes off, considering NS is off the GCD and the macro thus making them go off pretty much simultaneously. I doubt you will encounter that problem as long as you make sure there is a noticable amount of time between the cast of NS and HS.

I actually don't use a macro since I have both abilities bound to my mouse. It doesn't just occur when using NS though. It also happens from PS proc's from time to time.

Assuming we save our valor to upgrade our pieces that are only BiS. Should we just upgrade our trinket now to get it out of the way if that's our only BiS piece atm? Or would it be worth it to spend the valor on upgrading the normal Gao-Rei staff?

First a few remarks and questions pertaining to the guide. When I first saw this guide, the formatting and structure was horrible. Very good that you, Epitacx, edited the guide further. I was beginning to wonder whether that was intended to be how it was actually going to look. :b

Under the talents section there's a line that says:

Heart of the Wild(If you have a Spellcaster weapon) else Nature’s Vigil

What do you mean 'if you have a spellcaster weapon'? What does that have to do with the talent? Or is it pertaining to the OP stuff in the beginning of the expansion? If so, you might want to remove it, as it is no longer true.

Regarding the trinket list in the guide, how do you simulate trinkets only? I'm not very familiar with Simcraft, and I can't find anything about this. Also, are the Cataclysm trinkets really that good compared to the MoP trinkets? That seems weird. And why are some trinkets listed several times? Are the two pictures of the trinket results different in any way?

You mention PP several times. What does this stand for?

Moving on to questions regarding Feral in general. I haven't been active on the theorycrafting front, or even paid much attention to discussions on the Internet, since Cataclysm, so I'm not entirely up to date with everything.

- First of all, does anybody remember what the 4-set bonus on T13 was? When I logged in for the first time after my break, after Mists had been released, I noticed that the 4-set bonus had been changed, but I just couldn't remember what the previous one was.

- FB, is it worth using above 25% boss health, yes or no? If yes, how much time must there be left on Savage Roar and Rip when using Ferocious Bite in order to not having them drop?

- Is it worth letting Rip drop in order to get in an FB? If so, at how many seconds does it break even, i.e. how long can Rip be down before it turns into a DPS loss?

- Is it worth using FB during Berserk? I assume that it is, as long as I have SotF, considering the energy gains.

- How long is it worth having Rip down waiting for TF to come off cooldown? Also, is it worth clipping a normal Rip with a TFed Rip, or is that still sketchy, like it was in Cataclysm?

- Is the DoC rotation still optimal? It seems like it is, but last time I read about it, it was very difficult to execute it perfectly in a raid setting.

- Situation: Thrash is already up on the boss and you get another OoC proc; I assume this will go the combo point generating ability and not to applying Thrash again? That's what I've done so far, and I suppose one doesn't want to wait for Thrash to hit that window where one can clip it before using the OoC proc to refresh it (seeing that one doesn't energy cap during that time), as one is running the risk of getting more OoC procs during that time, thus wasting it.

- When cleaving, I find it difficult to keep Rip up as Swipe doesn't prolong Rip. Is it worth using Shred as a means of preventing Rip to drop here? Nonetheless, I'm sure the 4-set bonus will come in handy while cleaving for this exact reason.

- In Cataclysm, it was worth to wait using TF until Berserk came off cooldown, if Berserk had a given amount of seconds left or less. Does this still hold true? If so, how long is it worth waiting?

I think this is everything I have on my mind right now. If I remember that there was something I forgot, or just come up with more, I'll post it here. Thank you.

Assuming we save our valor to upgrade our pieces that are only BiS. Should we just upgrade our trinket now to get it out of the way if that's our only BiS piece atm? Or would it be worth it to spend the valor on upgrading the normal Gao-Rei staff?

That's entirely up to you to decide. Upgrading your weapon will be by far the best choice in the short term but not so much in the long term.

What do you mean 'if you have a spellcaster weapon'? What does that have to do with the talent? Or is it pertaining to the OP stuff in the beginning of the expansion? If so, you might want to remove it, as it is no longer true.

Using HOTW as a DPS cooldown is still viable with a good caster weapon, its just not as OP as it was before.

Originally Posted by Arctagon

Regarding the trinket list in the guide, how do you simulate trinkets only? I'm not very familiar with Simcraft, and I can't find anything about this. Also, are the Cataclysm trinkets really that good compared to the MoP trinkets? That seems weird. And why are some trinkets listed several times? Are the two pictures of the trinket results different in any way?

Many trinket lists are only weighing the procs and not the overall value of the trinket, but the cataclysm heroic trinkets were indeed quite good.

Originally Posted by Arctagon

- FB, is it worth using above 25% boss health, yes or no? If yes, how much time must there be left on Savage Roar and Rip when using Ferocious Bite in order to not having them drop?

- Is it worth letting Rip drop in order to get in an FB? If so, at how many seconds does it break even, i.e. how long can Rip be down before it turns into a DPS loss?

- Is it worth using FB during Berserk? I assume that it is, as long as I have SotF, considering the energy gains.

- How long is it worth having Rip down waiting for TF to come off cooldown? Also, is it worth clipping a normal Rip with a TFed Rip, or is that still sketchy, like it was in Cataclysm?

- Is the DoC rotation still optimal? It seems like it is, but last time I read about it, it was very difficult to execute it perfectly in a raid setting.

- Situation: Thrash is already up on the boss and you get another OoC proc; I assume this will go the combo point generating ability and not to applying Thrash again? That's what I've done so far, and I suppose one doesn't want to wait for Thrash to hit that window where one can clip it before using the OoC proc to refresh it (seeing that one doesn't energy cap during that time), as one is running the risk of getting more OoC procs during that time, thus wasting it.

- When cleaving, I find it difficult to keep Rip up as Swipe doesn't prolong Rip. Is it worth using Shred as a means of preventing Rip to drop here? Nonetheless, I'm sure the 4-set bonus will come in handy while cleaving for this exact reason.

- In Cataclysm, it was worth to wait using TF until Berserk came off cooldown, if Berserk had a given amount of seconds left or less. Does this still hold true? If so, how long is it worth waiting?

depends, depends, yes, depends, yes, yes, no, depends

Someone might be able to give you some numbers and specifics here, but hopefully that gives you a quick start ;P I am lazy

First a few remarks and questions pertaining to the guide. When I first saw this guide, the formatting and structure was horrible. Very good that you, Epitacx, edited the guide further. I was beginning to wonder whether that was intended to be how it was actually going to look. :b

Under the talents section there's a line that says:

What do you mean 'if you have a spellcaster weapon'? What does that have to do with the talent? Or is it pertaining to the OP stuff in the beginning of the expansion? If so, you might want to remove it, as it is no longer true.

Regarding the trinket list in the guide, how do you simulate trinkets only? I'm not very familiar with Simcraft, and I can't find anything about this. Also, are the Cataclysm trinkets really that good compared to the MoP trinkets? That seems weird. And why are some trinkets listed several times? Are the two pictures of the trinket results different in any way?

You mention PP several times. What does this stand for?

Moving on to questions regarding Feral in general. I haven't been active on the theorycrafting front, or even paid much attention to discussions on the Internet, since Cataclysm, so I'm not entirely up to date with everything.

- First of all, does anybody remember what the 4-set bonus on T13 was? When I logged in for the first time after my break, after Mists had been released, I noticed that the 4-set bonus had been changed, but I just couldn't remember what the previous one was.

- FB, is it worth using above 25% boss health, yes or no? If yes, how much time must there be left on Savage Roar and Rip when using Ferocious Bite in order to not having them drop?

- Is it worth letting Rip drop in order to get in an FB? If so, at how many seconds does it break even, i.e. how long can Rip be down before it turns into a DPS loss?

- Is it worth using FB during Berserk? I assume that it is, as long as I have SotF, considering the energy gains.

- How long is it worth having Rip down waiting for TF to come off cooldown? Also, is it worth clipping a normal Rip with a TFed Rip, or is that still sketchy, like it was in Cataclysm?

- Is the DoC rotation still optimal? It seems like it is, but last time I read about it, it was very difficult to execute it perfectly in a raid setting.

- Situation: Thrash is already up on the boss and you get another OoC proc; I assume this will go the combo point generating ability and not to applying Thrash again? That's what I've done so far, and I suppose one doesn't want to wait for Thrash to hit that window where one can clip it before using the OoC proc to refresh it (seeing that one doesn't energy cap during that time), as one is running the risk of getting more OoC procs during that time, thus wasting it.

- When cleaving, I find it difficult to keep Rip up as Swipe doesn't prolong Rip. Is it worth using Shred as a means of preventing Rip to drop here? Nonetheless, I'm sure the 4-set bonus will come in handy while cleaving for this exact reason.

- In Cataclysm, it was worth to wait using TF until Berserk came off cooldown, if Berserk had a given amount of seconds left or less. Does this still hold true? If so, how long is it worth waiting?

I think this is everything I have on my mind right now. If I remember that there was something I forgot, or just come up with more, I'll post it here. Thank you.

1. What i mean with having a spellcasters weapon is outdated, before the spell power scaling we had with HotW was so strong that having a spellcasters weapon during the proc gave us so sexy crits with Wrath and Hurricane. Only the % agility is very strong and i'm not sure if the Wrath damage we do is better then our normal kitty damage right now.
2. You don't only simulate trinkets only you simulate with your gear equiped with only one trinket then you swap it out and compare to other trinkets, The trinket rankings are brought by Aggixx and if i am not misstaken i need to update those pictures.
3. I'm not entitaly sure what PP value it self stand for but the more the better we see them when we make a stat weight in simulationcraft for example Agility can be 3 and Mastery can be 1 that means that 1 point of agility is as good as 3 points of mastery. Something that will change these are downtime on targets, multiple targets and movement.
4. The 4set of t13 was change to whenever you use TF you gain OoC
5. I generally use FB if i will have SR up for 3-4 more seconds that i'll atleast be able to get 2 cps for a new SR also if rip is at or above 8 seconds. Keep in mind this is with usage of SofT that i assume most ppl are using.
6. Not sure without DoC but with DoC keeping a uptime higher then 87-92% is a dps lost.
7. Don't hold off a Rip for TF to come off CD if it doesn't matter of a few seconds and Rip won't be gone for to long, Let say that you have 5 cps on target TF is 6 second CD and Rip is up for 3 more seconds i'd keep it down for 3 seconds and apply it with a TF.
8. DoC is complex but sure is usable, if you have problems with it i'd suggest using Ovale with Leafkillers ovale script.
9. If Thrash is up with 6 or more seconds and OoC procs use Shred.
10. Depending on situation.
11. You should not pop Berserk without Tiger's Fury.