I would take either Oshie or Roy's effort over Franzen's any day of the week.

Oshie is a good player, though, like Franzen, he suffers from spells of inconsistency. Roy does not fit with your comparison. You have left out the fact that he has been in inexorable decline for the past four seasons---to the point that exchanging him for Steve Ott was considered fair---and while he had excellent campaigns in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010, his past two seasons have assuredly left something to be desired. More, he is small and and average defensively.

Now I get that they all make less than 6mil which was one of your original requirements but here are just some names with 6m cap hits who I would take over Franzen:

Oshie is a good player, though, like Franzen, he suffers from spells of inconsistency. Roy does not fit with your comparison. You have left out the fact that he has been in inexorable decline for the past four seasons---to the point that exchanging him for Steve Ott was considered fair---and while he had excellent campaigns in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010, his past two seasons have assuredly left something to be desired. More, he is small and and average defensively.

Franzen's does not struggle with consistency, he struggles with motivation.

He at times flat out doesn't care, has no effort, and has admitted as much, his coach has said as much.

Lets not confuse Franzen's lackadaisical style of play for lack of consistency!

As I have said I would rather have a guy like Oshie battle inconsistency while playing solid D in all zones, forechecking, and making a difference over Franzen's (or anyone else for that matter) floating.

What USED to be his saving grace was "Playoff Beast Mode" as another poster pointed out, but now even that is not happening.

If you could make Clutch a stat 4 years ago his playoffs would have been the definition, now when the Wings need him most (CHI series) how many did he score?

But the Franzen debate will go on forever like the Feds debate, some people can put up with minimal effort at times, while others (like me) have very little tolerance for it.

Edit: Roy may be small but he and Franzen play at about the same size, and I would not say Franzen is a beast in his own zone!

Edited by Opie, 03 September 2013 - 04:13 PM.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

He has all the talent in the world. He has all the skill in the world. He has the build of a proper power-forward, a guy who could, potentially, wreak havoc in the o-zone just by sheer force of will. When he is (or was) at the top of his game, plugged in and amped to 11, he is/was the most dangerous, dominant forward in the NHL. Like, The Continuum goes Fedorov-->Shanahan-->Franzen. That's how good he is/can be.

But that's the thing.

"...can be."

I imagine Franzen's "problem" is that, really, he didn't know he had that potential in him. He came to the Wings thinking, "OK. I'm gonna just sorta do my thing, quietly get my 15-20 goals a year. Second line, maybe third line." And then, well, you know the rest. So, if you think about it, there is, in a sense, nothing wrong with him saying he's not a goal-scorer. Because, in a sense, he's not, and never was.

And yet, he is/was. Or is/was capable of being one. And, regardless of everything, we need him to be one.

So, yeah. I dunno.

"If I were to wish for anything, I should not wish for wealth and power, but for the passionate sense of the potential, for the eye which, ever young and ardent, sees the possible. Pleasure disappoints, possibility never. And what wine is so sparkling, what so fragrant, what so intoxicating, as possibility!" - Kierkegaard

I forgot how much time u all spend on the ice and in the locker room with Franzen.

Fact is he gets paid pretty much the exact right amount for how much he produces. I expect players to live up to their price tags and he certainly does.

Many of u seem to think he's failed to meet expectations and offer up all these soft amateur interpretations of his play, but the hard evidence is he lives up to his contract. He was also never expected to be a scorer when he entered the league. Then he scored a few goals and suddenly ppl expect Hull 2.0

Fact is the wings saw a 4 million dollar player, and signed him for just that.

You are picking certain stats (goals) and ignoring other ones (assists, Pims, ppg).

Franzen does nothing but score (once and a while).

Oshie, while scoring less does more and costs the same.

Same with Roy.

Did you forget I mentioned the Sedins, Lucic, Sharp, Kane, Toews, Richards? (All at 6 mil which was your original requirement which is why that list has more expensive players, you set this I did not)

I picked Oshie and Roy because they are similar cap hits and similar PPG.

You picked out a few, which I am willing to debate with you, but you picked your stats and players that fit your argument.

My point/contention has not been that mule is streaky (your words) but that his effort is hit or miss.

With Oshie and Roy you will get more effort and similar production.

But lets play by your rules:

Max Pacioretty's last two seasons were better than Mule and his salary and cap hit is 4m.

Plus when was the last time Franzen has 60+ points as you pointed out in the original post I quoted?

Hockeydb only has him hitting 59 once (one of only two times his point total exceeded his PIMS), I don't really like my sniper to have more PIMs than Points.

My point was to find someone who can score just as much, and excel in all other categories, for up to a couple mil more. I didn't touch on the others because unless we trade our entire team away we won't stand a chance of getting them, maybe richards, but even his cap hit is considerably more then the 6mil mark i pointed out and he can be quite inconsistent as well. I didn't mind some of the 6.3 mil cap hit but picking a guy who has a cap hit the same as datsyuk is a far cry from comparable to franzen

I forgot how much time u all spend on the ice and in the locker room with Franzen.

Fact is he gets paid pretty much the exact right amount for how much he produces. I expect players to live up to their price tags and he certainly does.

Many of u seem to think he's failed to meet expectations and offer up all these soft amateur interpretations of his play, but the hard evidence is he lives up to his contract. He was also never expected to be a scorer when he entered the league. Then he scored a few goals and suddenly ppl expect Hull 2.0

Fact is the wings saw a 4 million dollar player, and signed him for just that.

But then again some of you KNOW he could score 40 goals? Right? Jeez

True. But the Wings did not hand out an 11-year extension based on how he was when he entered the league. They did it during his beast mode playoff years. And while he earns his cap hit now, will he in 3 or 4 years?

That's the problem I have with people referring only to his cap hit and saying he's a value for the money while ignoring term. If it were a 5 year contract it would be more true, but his contract is a cheat. His cap hit is artificially low because of the length and backdiving. So right now I agree $4 mill a year isn't so bad for his production, but it comes at a cost because short of him retiring early to Sweden, the Wings are paying $4 mill a year until 2020.

What will the 38 year old $4 mill a year Franzen look like? I don't really know, but based on his effort as a 33 year old, I'm not optimistic.

True. But the Wings did not hand out an 11-year extension based on how he was when he entered the league. They did it during his beast mode playoff years. And while he earns his cap hit now, will he in 3 or 4 years?

That's the problem I have with people referring only to his cap hit and saying he's a value for the money while ignoring term. If it were a 5 year contract it would be more true, but his contract is a cheat. His cap hit is artificially low because of the length and backdiving. So right now I agree $4 mill a year isn't so bad for his production, but it comes at a cost because short of him retiring early to Sweden, the Wings are paying $4 mill a year until 2020.

What will the 38 year old $4 mill a year Franzen look like? I don't really know, but based on his effort as a 33 year old, I'm not optimistic.

maybe he is preserving his strength so he can still be effective at 38

True. But the Wings did not hand out an 11-year extension based on how he was when he entered the league. They did it during his beast mode playoff years. And while he earns his cap hit now, will he in 3 or 4 years?

That's the problem I have with people referring only to his cap hit and saying he's a value for the money while ignoring term. If it were a 5 year contract it would be more true, but his contract is a cheat. His cap hit is artificially low because of the length and backdiving. So right now I agree $4 mill a year isn't so bad for his production, but it comes at a cost because short of him retiring early to Sweden, the Wings are paying $4 mill a year until 2020.

What will the 38 year old $4 mill a year Franzen look like? I don't really know, but based on his effort as a 33 year old, I'm not optimistic.

Well I don't own a crystal ball so I really can't say how he'll play at 38. Nor am I a pro scout or coach, so I have no idea if he has a floating problem or if he's even capable of a higher level of play at this point. What I can say is he earns his paycheck based on the stats.

Well I don't own a crystal ball so I really can't say how he'll play at 38. Nor am I a pro scout or coach, so I have no idea if he has a floating problem or if he's even capable of a higher level of play at this point. What I can say is he earns his paycheck based on the stats.

Did you think they were going to make less than they did? Or were you pipedreaming? A) Everybody with any sense knew that they were going to get paid what they did. B) Everybody else should have listened to the guys who knew better. C) Anybody who adamantly thought they'd make less than they did, in spite of what more knowledgeable people said, has a woefully inadequate understanding of what physically large, moderately talented, UFAs make in the NHL these days.

But the original point I was trying to make is that most people knew Clarkson and Clowe were going to get paid A LOT, in spite their limited success, but wanted them anyway for some stupid reason. Then these same people have the gall to turn around and jump on Franzen, who's only ever made less and produced WAY more than either of them in their respective careers. Neither of these two are known for their versatility either...so you can't really use the "When Franzen isn't scoring he's not doing anything" argument either.

Bitching about Franzen, while wanting a worse player for more money makes one both foolish and hypocritical. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, then don't.

But the price wasn't right... Maybe we should have paid Brunner 3.5 mil, hey the price was right. s*** bertuzzi almost hit 100 points at one point give him 5 mil, you never know... I know it's a bit of an exaggeration but the point is the same. Why didn't we sign flip again? The price WASN'T right, clowe and Clarkson got paid above their respective worth, because they took advantage of a depleted free agency. Simple as that, the price was too high, that's why they ended up on the team's they ended up on

"If I were to wish for anything, I should not wish for wealth and power, but for the passionate sense of the potential, for the eye which, ever young and ardent, sees the possible. Pleasure disappoints, possibility never. And what wine is so sparkling, what so fragrant, what so intoxicating, as possibility!" - Kierkegaard

I know, he's better than either and gets paid less. That's why I wanted to know if some of those who don't like Franzen wanted either of them.

It's a lame angle.

- Franzen has issues. They bother a lot of people. This is no secret. Babcock has stopped just short of calling Franzen out in the media.

- The big rub for people is, as harold said, that a 38-year-old Franzen is a scary thought. (Bad scary, not good scary.) The implied argument, or thought, being - y'know, it might really be worth trading the guy before he gets to 38. People find this offensive, etc. etc.

- I get the point you're trying to make re: Clarkson and Clowe, but, again, it's lame. Maybe people knew they'd get paid like they did. What does that prove? That the people taking issue with Franzen are wrong in everything they say about the issue? People wanted Clarkson on this team because we don't really have a Clarson. Same for Clowe.

- My head hurts, which is why this post sucks. But hopefully you catch my drift. Which is that Franzen is a terrible human being. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

"If I were to wish for anything, I should not wish for wealth and power, but for the passionate sense of the potential, for the eye which, ever young and ardent, sees the possible. Pleasure disappoints, possibility never. And what wine is so sparkling, what so fragrant, what so intoxicating, as possibility!" - Kierkegaard

But the price wasn't right... Maybe we should have paid Brunner 3.5 mil, hey the price was right. s*** bertuzzi almost hit 100 points at one point give him 5 mil, you never know... I know it's a bit of an exaggeration but the point is the same. Why didn't we sign flip again? The price WASN'T right, clowe and Clarkson got paid above their respective worth, because they took advantage of a depleted free agency. Simple as that, the price was too high, that's why they ended up on the team's they ended up on

So because teams overpaid for those guys, that means we should forgive Franzen's laziness? Clowe and Clarkson don't have Franzen's shooting skills. They're just big, bruising forwards. I don't remember saying that those guys could score 30 or 40 goals here.

None of this will quiet Franzen's detractors. Like I said, a guy that doesn't look like he's busting his ass on every shift is an easy target for fans to get angry at.