Happy day to everyone and thank you for looking into my newb thread (we all know how painful that can be).So here's the thing: I really like thinking. I like everything about it, even the scary parts. But in order to successfully complete the first part of Vipassana meditation training one must stop thinking, unless it's about breathing, which one can do without thinking.Right now, when I'm meditating correctly (not thinking), it feels like a blessing to waver off into thinking and a curse to have to return to non-thinking. Basically, it's no fun.Questions: am I surely going to fail at meditation? Also, if by devine intervention I succeed in non-thinking, is there a danger I'll enjoy it too much and not want to return to thinking, and/or lose the capability entirely?Thanks for thinking about this.

From whom did you learn meditation and what exact method are you using?

with mettaChris

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

BuddhaBatman wrote:Happy day to everyone and thank you for looking into my newb thread (we all know how painful that can be).So here's the thing: I really like thinking. I like everything about it, even the scary parts. But in order to successfully complete the first part of Vipassana meditation training one must stop thinking, unless it's about breathing, which one can do without thinking.Right now, when I'm meditating correctly (not thinking), it feels like a blessing to waver off into thinking and a curse to have to return to non-thinking. Basically, it's no fun.Questions: am I surely going to fail at meditation? Also, if by devine intervention I succeed in non-thinking, is there a danger I'll enjoy it too much and not want to return to thinking, and/or lose the capability entirely?Thanks for thinking about this.

I can only suggest that perhaps you were too busy thinking that you misunderstood SN Goenka's instructions. He is not anti-thinking, nor does he want students to stop thinking. Part of the instruction is to pay no attention to thoughts or emotional 'storms' as they arise in the mind and to maintain continuity of awareness of the anicca characteristic of vedana (sensation). Thoughts will come and go, but one should never try and stop them or force them out. The other thing Goenkaji advises is to not to 'roll' in fantasies of the future or memories of the past. By 'roll' he means indulge. Thoughts come and go but the idea is not to engage with them. The reason is that if your mind is pre-occupied with some scenario in your mind you've lost the continuity of awareness of physical sensation.kind regards

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Ben wrote:Part of the instruction is to pay no attention to thoughts or emotional 'storms' as they arise in the mind and to maintain continuity of awareness of the anicca characteristic of vedana (sensation). Thoughts will come and go, but one should never try and stop them or force them out. The other thing Goenkaji advises is to not to 'roll' in fantasies of the future or memories of the past. By 'roll' he means indulge. Thoughts come and go but the idea is not to engage with them. The reason is that if your mind is pre-occupied with some scenario in your mind you've lost the continuity of awareness of physical sensation.

When you are told "not" to think is a way of saying to clear your mind. Thoughts will come and go, but you should refrain from letting your mind wander while you meditate. Don't over think this Not thinking vs. Thinking, no matter how much you enjoying meditating you will go back to thinking when you are done meditating.

A metaphor that might help during meditation is keep your mind like a rock in a stream. Phenomena float past, a pain in your neck here, a sound there and a thought over there. Just be mindful of them without getting involved with them. You let them all go by. You handle a thought the same as you handle other phenomena. Trying to steer thoughts away is getting involved with them.

Jack wrote:A metaphor that might help during meditation is keep your mind like a rock in a stream. Phenomena float past, a pain in your neck here, a sound there and a thought over there. Just be mindful of them without getting involved with them. You let them all go by. You handle a thought the same as you handle other phenomena. Trying to steer thoughts away is getting involved with them.

Jack

..and as Ben quite rightly suggested, watch the fact that they change and come to an end, and just keep watching this, bearing in mind that all things in the entire world is like this.

Personal reflection maybe helpful for us to understand certain things about ourselves, especially to be a better person. However thinking based practices are limited in their scope, simple due to being unable to 'break out of the box' on which the thinking is based on.

rowyourboat wrote:Personal reflection maybe helpful for us to understand certain things about ourselves, especially to be a better person. However thinking based practices are limited in their scope, simple due to being unable to 'break out of the box' on which the thinking is based on.

Are you saying that the goal of practice is to reach the state where you can't think at all? Then rocks would be awakened, they have no thoughts!

IMHO, it is all about developing wisdom that will uproot all the fetters. Whatever develops that wisdom is the way to practice.

Not all thinking is bad. There are good thoughts, and there are bad thoughts. MN19.

"And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation arose. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with renunciation has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding. ..."Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with renunciation, abandoning thinking imbued with sensuality, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with renunciation.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.3.26 is very interesting. It describes the 5 occasions when a person attains Ariyahood. These are:

Listening to the Dhamma: it brings joy, especially if one has an affinity for the Dhamma. This will naturally calm the mind and make it peaceful and tranquil. A tranquil mind easily becomes concentrated. With a concentrated mind, insight will arise.

Teaching the Dhamma: To teach the Dhamma, one needs to understand and reflect on the Dhamma. From here, joy also arises which will lead successively to tranquility, concentration and insight.

Repeating Dhamma: Although not common nowadays, it was quite common during the Buddha's time when books did not exist. At that time, the Dhamma was preserved and passed on to the next generation by people who memorised them through regular recitation. If monks are going to pass on the Dhamma, they have to be very familiar with the Dhamma. Thus, monks spent a lot of time reciting the Dhamma.

In fact, in those days, it was the monks' duty to repeat and recite the Dhamma. This constant repetition will make you very familiar with it. The first time you read, listen to or recite the Sutta, you will have a certain level of understanding. With greater repetition, your understanding becomes deeper and deeper. The similar sequence of joy, tranquility, concentration and insight follows.

Reflecting on the Dhamma: This involves contemplating, thinking and pondering on the Dhamma in its various aspects, validity and relevance to our daily lives. In this way, insight will arise through the same sequence of events.

During Meditation: According to the Suttas, this involves reflecting on the concentration sign (samadhi nimitta), which is rightly grasped and penetrated. The same sequence of joy, tranquility, concentration and insight follows.

It is crucial to note that out of these 5 occasions, only 1 is during meditation and the other 4 are out of meditation: listening, teaching, repeating and reflecting on the Saddhamma. http://www.viet.net/anson/ebud/ebdha163.htm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Thank you for your response. I was merely pointing out that thinking alone, is not going to be enough. I am fully aware of the need to listen, ponder, understand, make views out of, and contemplate appropriately before getting to mindfulness. It's hardly as non-thinking process. It is also not a thinking-only process. It was the latter point I was trying to get at in my previous post.

BuddhaBatman wrote:Happy day to everyone and thank you for looking into my newb thread (we all know how painful that can be).So here's the thing: I really like thinking. I like everything about it, even the scary parts. But in order to successfully complete the first part of Vipassana meditation training one must stop thinking, unless it's about breathing, which one can do without thinking.Right now, when I'm meditating correctly (not thinking), it feels like a blessing to waver off into thinking and a curse to have to return to non-thinking. Basically, it's no fun.Questions: am I surely going to fail at meditation? Also, if by devine intervention I succeed in non-thinking, is there a danger I'll enjoy it too much and not want to return to thinking, and/or lose the capability entirely?Thanks for thinking about this.

I get the opposite feeling, I really enjoy non-thinking, and rather do that than go back to thinking. I know not everbody "hears" that metalic humming sound in their mind all the time, but I do ( from what I understand some people "hear" it, most do not, some consider it a blessing, some consider it a curse), the reason I'm mentioning it here is that when I focus on that sound thoughts do not arise as long as I am focused on it, not so with the breath, thoughts still arise out of the blue. I really enjoy that metallic hum, so it is easy for me to focus on it. It kinda fills your mind up, seems there is no room for anything else. If you can "hear" that sound use it.