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Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/04
Posts: 504

Tam Arte Quam Marte

I was on the forums bitching about how lame the Legacy quests are when I checked my PMs and I remebered that I got someone to PM me her whole last post. It's long and I'll have to cu and paste it all in here, but it explains alot. She also talks about the CU that they had planned as the first CU, but that was scrapped and they gave us what we new as the first CU. Anyway here it is:

Hiya.. I just noticed your message Here is a copy of her final post. It's a good read.. enjoy!

This was taken from the SoE SWG forums, and has now beed deleted by SoE off thier forums.

Tiggs finnal post before being sacked.

For any of you that were around since this game's launch, thing back to November 2003. Two years ago this month SOE introduced vehicles and player cities to SWG. This was a very exciting time, and arguably the pinnacle of this game's existence.

The day the player city and vehicle publish was to go live was very intense. There was a lot of excitement. Many of us were on the old Gorath Imperial IRC server talking about grand plans, wishing each other luck on getting our spots. Many had architects lined up to make city halls. A lot of us had our would-be mayors logged out right by where the politician trainer would be located when the server came up. A LOT of people did not go to work or school that day hehe.

Player cities actually came to define this game early on. It gave guild's a sense of pride and ownership. It gave folks places to gather. Gave us territories to defend/assault. This gave us rise to the GCW and the massive PvP that ensued.

But over the next couple of months, people realized they could make armor that would resist 90%+ all damage. Or that they could make MIND poison that would kill everyone within a 30 yard radius in three ticks. Or they could make buffs that would more than DOUBLE our stats.

These were all items that for some reason or another were never capped before the game went live as they should have. This was a direct result of SOE's short-sightedness. They underestimated the resourcefulness of their player base.
Combine those factors with bugs and exploits (faction bases had MANY that took MONTHS to patch), unbalanced classes (TKA, CM, Rifleman) and eventually the revelation of HOW to unlock Jedi (effectively taking a huge part of the player base OUT of the game as they pursued the grind) - and you had the begining of the decline.

Before all this, the GCW was super addictive and I would say in November 2003 the majority of players were actively involved somehow. Not sure how many remember the battles at Maelstrom that went on for over 8 hours. Only reason it ended was because people had to leave to go to work or school lol. The game was FUN and MUCH more addictive then. Faction meant something. We had a LOT less faction hopping back then because the war was in full swing.

Well, the game kept deteriorating so SOE came up with the plan to fix it - originally called the Combat Revamp, later to be known as the Combat Upgrade. I was one who was privy to a LOT of the early documentation on the first CU. Let me first point out that the CU that did go live that you all call CU 1 is actually CU 2. There was another version of the CU prior to what you saw that IMHO was MUCH better, but for some reason or another they took it upon themselves to redo the CU before it even went live.

But the CU 1 that I was shown was the game I wanted. It was basically the same game we all loved, but solved the long-standing problems that revealed themselves since launch. Being able to target the mind pool was no longer going to be an advantage for only a handful of professions - each profession was going to get a move to be able to target each of the three pools. Weapons, armor, buffs, foods & drinks were all going to be capped. DOT's were going to be nerfed so hard they were going to be a nuissance, but not make or break in combat. Mind pool was going to finally be healable. We still had the same graphics and toolbars - none of the cartoony stuff that I think really was a distraction. We also still had Jedi which arguably was the biggest flaw of the game.
But while all this was going on, there were many underlying problems that were creeping up on us slowly. See the game had only been out for a few months. People had not fully realized to what extent things could be crafted. We had not had many good resource spawns, and not substantial quantities either. Almost no crafters had any experimentation tapes, nor did they fully understand how the intricacies of the crafting system worked.
Not sure why - perhaps too much playing WoW and not focusing on their own unique game - but they scrapped all of CU 1 and ended up pushing out what you have now.

But now - now we have the NGW. There are SO many things I find wrong with this I do not even know where to begin.
First off, SWG never has been known as having a substantial amount of content. To be honest, I think that half the content in this game WAS the professions - being able to build a unique character template for YOU. Bored of tailor? Try droid engineer. Bored of pistoleer? Try carbineer.

Now I see these nine classes folks will be pigeon-holed into and I think that SOE just took it's BIGGEST strength for this game and turned it into a weakness. Character classes in SWG will now have even less diversity than WoW because in WoW at least they have the talent system to offer some diversity within a class.
Sure, this will be easier for them to balance, and easier for players without a clue, but it seems to me that this is a cop out and a slap in the face to anyone who has been loyal to SOE through it all.

I am sure the NGE will be fun for a little while, but unless SOE plans on adding a LOT of content, the NGE will become boring FAST.
Where did SOE go wrong over the past few years? Well here is a quick list of major issues that they either never addressed or took too long to address or just flat out screwed up:

- Mind Pool
Making the ONE unhealable pool explicitly targetable by only a few classes automatically made some classes better than others.

-No Caps
Having no upper-limit caps on DOT's, buffs, food&drinks, armor effectiveness, weapons, etc allowed for game-breaking items to be crafted. Had there been better testing in beta with MAX resources they would have discovered this before the game even went live.

-Jedi
Making an alpha class in an MMORPG is always going to be a failure. Who would NOT want to play the dominant class? Nerfing Jedi was wrong too. We want Jedi to be like canon and strong. SOE should have NEVER allowed player Jedi. To my understanding this was a HUGE internal debate before the game went live, with LucasArts weighing in to push Jedi. BIG mistake. Fact is the game had MORE paying subscribers before there were Jedi. Fact - after DOT's (often pointed out by Jedi as the true death of the game) the game had even LESS subscribers. I hardly think all those people quit because DOT's were nerfed Point? People got sick of Jedi, and sick of seeing more and more of them. Less diversity among players = less fun. When SOE devoted two huge publishes all to Jedi instead of fixing other long-standing issues this was a sign of things to come. And the original holo-grind killed off a LOT of the PvP we had since so many became reclusive and devoted all their time to grinding.
From: millerz3rd | Posted: 11/11/2005 7:11:41 PM | Message Detail
-GCW bugs/exploits
Once people discovered that you can shoot through walls of player bases from the inside out but not outside in things went downhill. Once people discovered you could abort a base countdown even while DEAD of feigning death it was game over. How long did it take for SOE to fix this bug? FOUR months. What about people being able to attack turrets from out of range? SIX months. It was not like these were secret tricks either. They were well documented on the forums. For some reason though, they were extremly slow to respond. Instead of spending eight hours fighting back and forth between cities, people just got rid of their bases and the GCW died. With it PvP died off in a big way.

-Content
At one point they promised us new PvE content every other patch. Well, we got the corvette (which was a BLAST for about 3 weeks) and the Geonosian cave (which was so bugged it became a favorite place for grinders) and eventually the DWB which was the most challenging and fun, but then it was not until the expansion that the game actually got additional PvE content.
-Wasted Space
Land area in SWG is immense. If you did the math and figured it out and compared it to any other MMORPG out there SWG has MORE explorable space than any other game by far. But you know what? It is USELESS. Take Talus for example. Big beautiful planet with NOTHING on it. We have these little mini-dungeons, or doodads on each planet that serve minimal to no purpose at all. What is their answer? In the expansions they actually have invisible fencing to keep you in the few areas they actually have content. Instead of having the whole huge area filled with stuff of use, they close off areas to the player. This is an area where SOE could learn a LOT from WoW where all the land is not only explorable, but most of it serves a purpose and/or has unique mobs.

-Character customization
SOE made characters so customizable that this actually becomes one of it's biggest weaknesses. The more unique features the game has to track, the more queries clients have to make to the server in order to properly render a toon on your screen. 20 players no problem. 50 players? Slowdown time. 200 players? Server go kaboom. Too much load for the system to handle. Basically epic battles become near impossible.

Thinking about all of this it seems to me that in SOE's rush to get product to market in the first place they dropped the ball bad, and instead of making things better, they constantly seem to make the wrong decisions.

Stop f'ing around with focus groups, and fire the marketing suits and hire some good, competent developers and people with vision. Unfortunately at this point I think it is too late. No one trusts you anymore SOE and their experiences here WILL likely make them think twice about trying other SOE games. I know for myself I will NEVER play another SOE title.

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Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/04
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Tam Arte Quam Marte

Here's a series of PMs I got that should be an interesting read as well:

Ok folks, let me begin by saying that I do not expect you to believe what is written below in my post, but I feel obligated to pass along information that I have recieved from a friend who works for SOE. This friend of mine IS an employee of SOE and is in a senior enough position to be privy to what I am sharing. I will not give any more details on who this person is at SOE because my insider told me they are required to sign a fairly lengthy non-disclosure agreement and I do not want this person to be discovered.

There is a lot of speculation going on within the company (even more than what is going on in our forums) as to what will happen over the next several months. Everyone there knows bad stuff is coming down the pipe but all of the managers and execs are being super tight lipped and/or have been directed to say nothing to support staff right now. Several of the employees have stated that SOE once was the pinnacle of game development and has now become the laughing stock of the online gamer community. Because the blunder by SOE was so great, many of the employees and devs fear about their ability to take jobs at other gamers firms because of how tarnished SOE has become now within this gaming world.

Things are really, REALLY getting stirred up down in Austin at SOE because of the fallout of the NGE. Nobody there expected what has become in regards to the number of customers who have cancelled their accounts. Before the launch of the NGE SOE discussed how many veteran accounts they would be willing to "sacrifice" when they pushed the NGE live and the resulting number has been almost 15 times greater than what was expected. Most of the Dev's dismissed the threats to leave being made by vets on the forums and pointed to the fact that the same people said the same things when the first CU went live, but that those people stuck around. SOE is admitting, at least internally, that they severely miscalculated and underestimated the dedicated player base's reaction to the NGE.
Right now the blame game is in full effect at SOE. All of the senior devs are pointing fingers at anyone but themselves and everyone is doing anything they can to distance themselves from being credited for making ANY decision to push the NGE live. Even people who were "pro-NGE" have repositioned themselves and are now singing a different tune. 2 developers have been let go, but have been allowed to remain working until the 2nd week of January because they don't want to sack anyone during the holiday season. The entire Customer Suport staff has been reduced 25% with more layoff expected. Those that were let go are allowed to remain on until Jan 1st. Many of the employees have begun to polish off their resume's in fear that even more layoffs are coming.

Lucas Arts execs have flow down to Austin to have some serious closed door meetings. Apparently, the execs at LA very very rarely come to SOE. The meeting took place over 2 days with every developer who was involved in the NGE being called into the meeting at some point. It was said that the atmosphere was like that of a courtroom where you felt like you were on the stand defending yourself. Apparently the license with LA expires in the first quarter of next year and renewal was not finalized before the NGE and now all of that is up in the air. Talks have begun with an outside company on buying the pre-NGE code from SOE and running a limited number of severs (at most 5) with a skeleton crew support staff. There aren't many details here as those talks have been very private and the only info my insider has is what was leaked to him by a dev that have been invloved in the initial talks with this outside company. There has been a few lengthy discussions about scrapping the NGE completely with a rollback involved.
Oh, and the game WAS in the initial development cycles for porting to consol (Xbox, Playstation) but now those efforts have been stalled 100%.
A memo from top exec has been handed down to all Devs and Community Relations staff on what they can and cannot discuss with the player base on the forums or in game. They are intentionally trying to be as vague as possible in feal that the more players know about what is coming, more and more will leave.

What's so funny about these 2 posts is that SOE deleted them from the forums, but I saved them in my PM box on the very same forums.

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Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/01/07
Posts: 81

"You''re not going crazy. You''re going sane in a crazy world!"

good read, thanks for sharing, i had left before NGE and by the time i heard about Tiggs post it had already been deleted. she definitely pointed out most things that SOE had done wrong, interesting to hear that they had a completely different CU planned before changing it to what came out before i quit...from the sounds of it i really would've liked their original CU.

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Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 762

It's sad some idiots point the blame at Tiggs even though it was clear that she couldn't find out what was going on even if she tried, I'm glad that someone like her got into LOTR Online though, it'll mean the game will have a half-decent community manager at least and perhaps she'll have learned not to trust companies like SOE again, I know I have. SOE are actually starting to cost people their jobs now ( concerning the Sigil takeover ) even though SOE could have easily kept those folks on, I really hope that more disasters like SWG and Vanguard don't happen later on.

Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.

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Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/06
Posts: 1039

ummm who cares?? she was just a mod.

EDIT: well i read em, the first one was real long and stuff i alrdy knew (not counting the CU1) The second post was really interesting but nothing changed the game development, nothing she said that they were talking about happened. So its all pretty much a fantasy that never happened, ill read this again before i go to bed tonight

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Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/06
Posts: 318

I hadn't read this particular post from Tiggs before. It was kind of sad in a way......hindsight that hurts like h3ll and you are powerless to do anything about it. As difficult as it was for her at the time, $OE kicking her to the curb was the absolute best thing that could have happened to her. I wish her much success and happiness.

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Joined: 3/21/06
Posts: 686

Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit

Originally posted by 0k21

It's sad some idiots point the blame at Tiggs even though it was clear that she couldn't find out what was going on even if she tried, I'm glad that someone like her got into LOTR Online though, it'll mean the game will have a half-decent community manager at least and perhaps she'll have learned not to trust companies like SOE again, I know I have. SOE are actually starting to cost people their jobs now ( concerning the Sigil takeover ) even though SOE could have easily kept those folks on, I really hope that more disasters like SWG and Vanguard don't happen later on.

SOE put a muzzle on Tiggs, so she wasn't really allowed to say anything. Only veteran day 1 folks had some semblance of an idea of what was really "going on" (post-Q3PO). Thus players perceived her as part of the problem, and I think that, mixed with SOE's rhetoric, played a huge factor in why she "blew up" at SOE.

I'm just happy she didn't wind up blackballed from the industry for the explosion. She's always been one of the more interesting and entertaining sorts in game communities. I wish she'd keep her blog going, but I can understand why she wouldn't.. hehe.

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Joined: 5/17/04
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Tam Arte Quam Marte

Originally posted by tvalentine

ummm who cares?? she was just a mod.

EDIT: well i read em, the first one was real long and stuff i alrdy knew (not counting the CU1) The second post was really interesting but nothing changed the game development, nothing she said that they were talking about happened. So its all pretty much a fantasy that never happened, ill read this again before i go to bed tonight

I posted this stuff because it seemed relevant to that other really long thread where a bunch of people were trying to say that the NGE was Lucas Arts' fault.

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I posted this stuff because it seemed relevant to that other really long thread where a bunch of people were trying to say that the NGE was Lucas Arts' fault.

It obviously wasn't.

True as that is, and SOE employees (current and former) have stated similar, it won't matter. The NGE is such a grand failure in the eyes of the public that both companies are to blame no matter what actually happened. Similar stuff happened with the Trammel rollout in Ultima Online, albeit a lot more violently and flame-ridden in forums past. (*sigh* good times)

This is what happens when a company has the audacity to completely disrespect and piss off their users. They customers will get enraged and blame anyone and everyone even remotely involved, and the black mark surrounding the incident mars the entire product(s) and may even quash a few careers in the process. Let's face it, if SOE rolls out a SWG2, even if it is the perfect and definitive Star Wars experience, it's going to have a lot of pissed off people citing the past with caveat emptor notes dating back to EverQuest.

SOE has done nothing but continually irritate MMORPG players for almost the past decade. Post WoW and Vanguard, it's starting to look like anything SOE touches is tainted with poison.

EDIT: well i read em, the first one was real long and stuff i alrdy knew (not counting the CU1) The second post was really interesting but nothing changed the game development, nothing she said that they were talking about happened. So its all pretty much a fantasy that never happened, ill read this again before i go to bed tonight

I posted this stuff because it seemed relevant to that other really long thread where a bunch of people were trying to say that the NGE was Lucas Arts' fault.

It obviously wasn't.

All this thread proves is that this so called inside source saw Lucas Arts execs going into a room and having talks with the NGE developers after what happened. This source has no clue what was actually discussed and simply because LA didn't play a hands on approach to SWG's development, doesn't mean they didn't play a large role in it's development. The reason I think LA has more to do with this is because if SOE truely had complete control, it would have been as simple as reverting back to a previous chapter and scrappin the current NGE.

A similar ordeal occured with one of my other favorite games, Dark Age of Camelot and Mythic's 2nd expansion pack called Trials of Atlantis. Now, some people liked it and a lot of people didn't and quit, like me. Now, Mythic is nowhere near the corporation goliath that SOE is, yet somehow, they managed to create 3 classic servers that didn't include that ToA expansion. So, I really find it hard to believe that SOE couldn't, let alone wouldn't do something like this to save a dying game.

EDIT: well i read em, the first one was real long and stuff i alrdy knew (not counting the CU1) The second post was really interesting but nothing changed the game development, nothing she said that they were talking about happened. So its all pretty much a fantasy that never happened, ill read this again before i go to bed tonight

I posted this stuff because it seemed relevant to that other really long thread where a bunch of people were trying to say that the NGE was Lucas Arts' fault.

It obviously wasn't.

All this thread proves is that this so called inside source saw Lucas Arts execs going into a room and having talks with the NGE developers after what happened. This source has no clue what was actually discussed and simply because LA didn't play a hands on approach to SWG's development, doesn't mean they didn't play a large role in it's development. The reason I think LA has more to do with this is because if SOE truely had complete control, it would have been as simple as reverting back to a previous chapter and scrappin the current NGE.

A similar ordeal occured with one of my other favorite games, Dark Age of Camelot and Mythic's 2nd expansion pack called Trials of Atlantis. Now, some people liked it and a lot of people didn't and quit, like me. Now, Mythic is nowhere near the corporation goliath that SOE is, yet somehow, they managed to create 3 classic servers that didn't include that ToA expansion. So, I really find it hard to believe that SOE couldn't, let alone wouldn't do something like this to save a dying game.

See here's the problem with that line of thought:

Tiggs was an insider. She witnessesed the stuff first hand, and then posted about it on the boards the day she left SOE.

Tiggs is definitely not a faceless insider, and she made no mention of Lucas Arts ever in her whole post about ANY of the changes made to SWG.

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Both of those posts back up everything else I have been told or read about how this all went down.

Sure, it's a little dated now, but an interesting read.

Shayde - SWG (dead)Proud member of the Cabal.

It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled :( - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

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"I am altering the deal, pray I don''t alter it any further." (summary of SWG)

Originally posted by Lateris

She is over at lord of the rings and she rocks there. Funny thing is it not????--all the NGE devs are latered!

Is she really? That's cool, I'm aware that she attempted to raise concern about the impending NGE, and that she was apparently dismayed by what SOE was doing. I'm also aware that she exited SOE's employ rather quickly after an alleged post that remained on the forums for only a very brief time. Any employee that tried to raise concern about the NGE is pretty cool for doing so. If she paid for it with her job, well then she's even cooler for doing the right thing, even if it would cost her. So I wish her all the best, and hope the LOTR gig goes very well. From what I've seen, heard read etc., LOTR is in a lot better shape than her previous situation. I'm happy for her.

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Advanced Member

Joined: 7/03/07
Posts: 98

Sorry to burst your bubble but that post was made by a disgruntled Senator not Tiggs. Your first clue should have been the detail that the post goes into, Tiggs like Thunderheart never had that level of understanding of the game even though they worked for the company.

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"I am altering the deal, pray I don''t alter it any further." (summary of SWG)

Originally posted by Gutboy

Sorry to burst your bubble but that post was made by a disgruntled Senator not Tiggs. Your first clue should have been the detail that the post goes into, Tiggs like Thunderheart never had that level of understanding of the game even though they worked for the company.

Tbh I wasn't sure if that detailed post was "authentic Tiggs" myself. It's missing her hallmark sig for one thing--the one about dragons and ketchup lol (always liked that). I was on the SWG forums on or about the day her "last post" apparently showed up and was then quickly deleted. Unfortunately I didn't see it. People were talking about it and how concerns were raised about SOE's NGE plans. We were then talking shortly thereafter about her departure from SOE. So there was some kind of post, there were evidently some concerns raised about the NGE, and Tiggs and SOE parted ways. Whether or not this is in fact the "last post" of Tiggs, I'm not so sure. Regardless, I appreciate anyone that stands up to her company when it's about to do something unethical. That's a pretty cool example in our "corporate driven" society.

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Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 39

Wow even after all the hate, all the time I still want THAT game back... I hope someone either at SOE/LA/SWG or some smart startup company gets the fact that after years, and years people are so damn loyal to the pre nge game they still bitch, still post, still hate, still want their game back. Wow after years I am only able to realize what a great game it was, problems and all, and how loyal the vets are. It also goes to show how the games out now, of which I play some, are a whisp and a plae comparison to the game that was once SWG. I remember the venom that poured out on Tiggs after the fall, time shows me something different. It shows a person, a worker, pissed who was trying to stir the pot. IT GOT STIRRED. Wow I miss the game. I got my install CDs out the other day, I think I will go pack them up again. It still amazes me that some person in pwoer still thinks the NGE was the correct way, and continues it. If the data is correct losing 250k subs and them staying away for years should um say um you know like something. Here is eternal hope someone will wake up and awaken 250k + loyal fans!

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I don't usually post here, because I don't feel like getting attacked on account of not hating SOE nearly as much as some of you, but this thread really needs addressing.

Tiggs did NOT post the above thread. When the NGE came out, a forum member posted that on the boards as a quote of Tiggs, saying it was deleted. It's the same deal as the so called "Thunderheart's deleted post". The fake post took on a life of it's own, and two years later idiots still think it's the real deal.

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"You can always count on players to find the shortest route to the cheese." -- Musashi

She wasn't a hero, but I don't think Tiggs was the villain of the piece either.

Let's not forget that she left SOE right as the NGE went live -- and the manner of her departure was suggestive that it was not a friendly separation (whether she quit or they fired her, is not clear). She definitely made some posts near the end that, if you read between the lines, highly suggested that she was not on board with the NGE, and did not approve of what SOE was doing in that regard... And most people suspected that she was fired for not "towing the company line."

That she chose to take that route, rather than the TH route of staying with the game and parroting what Smed et al. were saying for months after that, is why a lot of players had new-found respect for her.

does it really matter if it comes from Tiggs or Tiger? all that matters it's the truth.. if ya disagree with any particular points then fine but it was a well written insider opinion and whoever wrote it wasn't just makin' things up...