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View Poll Results: What is an assault rifle?

Voters

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Any semi-automatic rifle (fires one shot every time the trigger is pulled)

Re: What is an assault rifle?

Originally Posted by Catawba

Yes, I read your sentence which did not match the quote I referenced.

Since my link was to THE OFFICIAL POSITION AS PUBLISHED BY SCOTUS and your's was paraphrased on a media website (which they edited to fit the article) which do you truely believe is correct? Would a photo help?

Which, your source or mine, looks more 'official'?

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

Re: What is an assault rifle?

Originally Posted by Dickieboy

Since my link was to THE OFFICIAL POSITION AS PUBLISHED BY SCOTUS and your's was paraphrased on a media website (which they edited to fit the article) which do you truely believe is correct? Would a photo help?

Which, your source or mine, looks more 'official'?

I didn't say your source didn't look official, I said it wasn't relevant to Scalia's quote that I referenced.

Here is the context of his quote regarding the DC v Heller case, as well as the Supreme Court decision when they banned sawed-off shotguns in the US v Miller case:

"In United States v. Miller, the Supreme Court upheld the right of the federal government to criminalize possession of a sawed off shot-gun, because it was not a weapon suitable for a militia:

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to any preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.
The case seemed to support the interpretation that Second Amendment rights extended more to state militias than individuals, though the opinion was somewhat narrow and hardly definitive.

The most definitive case came at the end of the Supreme Court's term in June 2008 in a case called District of Columbia v. Heller, where a special policeman was denied a permit to possess a gun in his home owing to a virtually complete handgun ban in Washington, D.C. A subsequent case basically applied the rule in Heller to state and local governments as well. In a controversial, but well researched, 5-4 majority opinion conservative Supreme Court Associate Justice Antonin Scalia settled the issue which is now the law of the land:

"There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms."

If one were to stop here, the NRA's folklore may actually make sense. However, the Supreme Court has ruled that various rights held to be the most protected, including the right to religious exercise, speech, marriage and interstate travel, are still subject to reasonable regulation.

Justice Scalia said as much in Heller:

Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment 's right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose.
Scalia's opinion was most concerned with protecting the right of law abiding citizens to possess handguns and simple weapons in the home, not any gun in any place"

Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

Re: What is an assault rifle?

Originally Posted by Catawba

I didn't say your source didn't look official, I said it wasn't relevant to Scalia's quote that I referenced.

You still don’t see it…amazing!!! If you remove the ‘From Blackstone…that the right was’ from the portion I provided it is EXACTLY what you posted. Further, search the opinion for the phrase you posted…this is IT!... unless of course you can magically find another IN THE OPINION.

Here is the context of his quote regarding the DC v Heller case, as well as the Supreme Court decision when they banned sawed-off shotguns in the US v Miller case:

"In United States v. Miller, the Supreme Court upheld the right of the federal government to criminalize possession of a sawed off shot-gun, because it was not a weapon suitable for a militia:…

Ok, but sawed off shotguns are not in question in this thread…please explain the context as it relates to ‘assault rifles’

If one were to stop here, the NRA's folklore may actually make sense. However, the Supreme Court has ruled that various rights held to be the most protected, including the right to religious exercise, speech, marriage and interstate travel, are still subject to reasonable regulation.
…
Scalia's opinion was most concerned with protecting the right of law abiding citizens to possess handguns and simple weapons in the home, not any gun in any place"
…

These are merely opinions on the opinion by Brian Levin, do not speak to the assault weapons and omit the other parts I have provided to you that SPECIFICALLY refer to assault rifles which is the subject of this thread (but he does infer the 'other regulations' which I included in the portion omitted from YOUR quote). Please try to stay on subject.

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

Re: What is an assault rifle?

Originally Posted by Dickieboy

You still don’t see it…amazing!!! If you remove the ‘From Blackstone…that the right was’ from the portion I provided it is EXACTLY what you posted. Further, search the opinion for the phrase you posted…this is IT!... unless of course you can magically find another IN THE OPINION.

What you say its about, and what Scalia actually said do not match. That's the problem Again, here is his quote: "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited," that it is "not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever."

What do you think Scalia means by, "it is "not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever."

Ok, but sawed off shotguns are not in question in this thread…please explain the context as it relates to ‘assault rifles’

You missed the whole point. If the conservative court found that banning sawed off shotguns did not infringe upon 2nd Amendment rights, than they might also find that Semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines are also not suitable for a home militia.

Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

Re: What is an assault rifle?

Originally Posted by Catawba

What you say its about, and what Scalia actually said do not match. That's the problem Again, here is his quote: "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited," that it is "not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever."

What do you think Scalia means by, "it is "not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever."

You missed the whole point. If the conservative court found that banning sawed off shotguns did not infringe upon 2nd Amendment rights, than they might also find that Semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines are also not suitable for a home militia.

Theoretically but I think you are reading it wrong. A sawed off shotgun has a wider blast pattern and significantly shorter kill distance so that would render it not-suitable for militia because your enemy would have to be much much closer. A semi-auto with a high capacity magazine is more suitable for militia use than a shotgun or handgun because you can kill the enemy at a greater distance and have more rounds with which to engage combatants.

Re: What is an assault rifle?

Originally Posted by Fisher

Theoretically but I think you are reading it wrong. A sawed off shotgun has a wider blast pattern and significantly shorter kill distance so that would render it not-suitable for militia because your enemy would have to be much much closer. A semi-auto with a high capacity magazine is more suitable for militia use than a shotgun or handgun because you can kill the enemy at a greater distance and have more rounds with which to engage combatants.

If you just looked at sawed off shotguns that have been banned, I think what you say is plausible. However, machine guns were also banned, which were still being used by the military at the time. And then of course, assault type weapons and high capacity magazines themselves were banned for a decade without anyone being able to make one credible constitutional case against the ban during the entire decade.

Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

Re: What is an assault rifle?

Originally Posted by Catawba

What you say its about, and what Scalia actually said do not match. That's the problem Again, here is his quote: "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited," that it is "not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever."

Ok, so please find his (your) quote in the opinion and post the section as you have continued to stand by the ‘no it’s not’ position and I have posted the precise excerpt. As to ‘What you say its about’, I have merely posted EXACTLY WHAT SCALIA WROTE and have advanced little opinion.

What do you think Scalia means by, "it is "not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever."

What he said it meant in the opinion…after the quote you posted he goes on for near 5 pages explaining what HE means which includes the portion I provided mentioning the M-16.

You missed the whole point. If the conservative court found that banning sawed off shotguns did not infringe upon 2nd Amendment rights, than they might also find that Semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines are also not suitable for a home militia.

But I posted the section WHERE SCALIA ADDRESSED weapons you reference and their intended use by ‘militia’…

Dude, YOU missed the whole point. My point was/is the section of the Heller opinion you posted was parsed to make the point of the SFgate article. This is disingenuous by the author but typical of current media.

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

Re: What is an assault rifle?

Originally Posted by Catawba

I am suggesting no such thing, I am merely quoting what Scalia's opinion was, that he doesn't believe the 2nd Amendment applies to "any weapon whatsoever".

and if one of those weapons comes before the USSC we will see what happens but if you use the Scalia test in HELLER-as one poster has done several times-its hard to see him upholding a ban on rifles that our own government distributed to non LEO citizens by the hundreds of thousands (MI carbines-semi automatic rifles taking 15/30 round magazines firing an intermediate cartridge etc)

Re: What is an assault rifle?

Originally Posted by Catawba

If you just looked at sawed off shotguns that have been banned, I think what you say is plausible. However, machine guns were also banned, which were still being used by the military at the time. And then of course, assault type weapons and high capacity magazines themselves were banned for a decade without anyone being able to make one credible constitutional case against the ban during the entire decade.

Dude, why continue to post erroneous crap? Sawed off shotguns and machine guns are not banned! Folks CAN own them legally! The 'hoops' (taxed registeration, extensive background checks, taxed transfer) to own one are much more onerous than more common firearms. If your argument is 'not everyone should own one' I will stipulate such as I believe most others, including Scalia since he said so, will.

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!