There is a lot of talk about Elubatel (which to my mind can be generalized to a lot of other success oriented magic) often completely upending a person's life, more or less backing them into a wall so that the person has to marshal their resources to become successful. These are two thoughts I have.

1 - Perhaps Elubatel's actual method is not to grant success, but to create the conditions under which you become successful. Which many people will experience as extreme upset in their exterior world. For example, the scenario where you do a working for success then end up fired from your job, losing your car, having to move, etc. It turns out that where you end up moving to is a better environment down the road. (I did a major working to be able to return to school in my 30s and these things happened. It was devastating and resulted in a type of PTSD related to my previous profession. I became a very different person and ended up in a completely different field.)

I've experienced similar things regarding other magic I've done, along the same lines, so it may just be how a lot of that type of magic works in real life. Especially when you're asking for something that involves a major life change or personality change, as opposed to something in the immediate that might be better served via a simple candle spell or sympathetic magic type of operation.

2 - Perhaps the degree of upheaval is relative to the number of obstacles. The things you're going to lose are things that were holding you back. If you're a person who's really rigid and stuck in their ways, and getting by, you may lose the foundation that enabled any of those things and find yourself in a position where you're forced to adapt or starve. As for Elubatel causing depression, perhaps one of the effects of working with that spirit is that you may be facing your own self-sabotage or low self worth that created your lack of success. Or become even more aware of it once you've cast for it. Has anyone found this the case?

Also, one last thing... I feel that a lot of people will have experienced these types of effects and made these types of observations if they've practiced any form of magic for a long time. Who is experiencing the severe fallout and or depression? Experienced practicioners, or beginners? There would be different implications in the case of each, I feel.

I have been thinking about the negative effects of elubatel for some time. The sixth and seventh books of Moses state that he is one-third of a trinity that banished monsters. Michael is said to be the leader of God’s heavenly army that defeated the insurgent angels. Did anyone ever have such negative side effects from invoking Michael? It seems not.

My speculation is that elubatel comes from an earlier or older cohort than Michael or may be a foreign import. The origins really do not matter however. What is clear is that people invoked elubatel and their life got turned upside down but became better.Now someone once asked if there was anything that can be adapted from the ATR practices. I chose not to respond then but do so here (in part).I think that Elubatel basically gave a factory reset (as per modern PC terminology) to the invoker. This factory reset is necessary because the individual was not living the right life. The right life is not some pious sin free life but merely the life one was destined to live. This is where the ATR comment comes in. What I am proposing is that the wrong life comes from the consistently making the wrong decisions as they take you away from what you were born to do. If we could imagine the following thought experiment:A and B live New York. Both have opportunities to move to either Texas or Miami. A had a reading that indicated that he should not go for the big bucks straight away so Miami should be better. A moves to Texas because it pays more money and ignores the reading. B prefers to move to Miami because he thinks he is good at salsa and prefers to have more fun despite being paid less he also decided to following the advice of his reading. One year passes and A is suffering because he is under too much pressure and is not even finding the time to spend his salary. He is so unhappy that he had another reading that said change job and drop a few $000s salary. A would love to leave his job but he made some serious financial commitments.B is happy and has been promoted and is earning as much as A. B is out at slasa twice a week and now teaches. A year passes and both invoke Elubatel. A suffers a year of hell that started with his relationship crashing and burning. He developed a mystery illness that is in fact an allergy. He breaks his arm and spends a week in hospital towards the end of the year but he meets a really nice nurse who is not a raving beauty and is senior by two years but she is “wife material”. After a year of hell, he is offered a transfer to Miami as his boss dislikes him. He hates Miami as it is too damn hot from August to October and too Hispanic (his words not mine). He discusses it with his new GF who it turns out has family in Miami. She takes him for a reading and he is told it is a good idea to do so.The point is we are in a sense the product of our decisions. Sometimes the wrong decision is not the “Common sense “ choice. The simple fact is that getting genuine readings and taking the advice led to bringing one’s life back into line with our destiny as determined in heaven.A had to suffer his “factory reset” on his life before making progress. The best solution is to have regular readings and also when making major decisions. Elubatel got a bad rep because the fault was human. As I have said before Angels are there to serve god and are not human hence applying human attributes to them is patently unwise.

The vulgar is at everyone's command. Eirenaeus Philalethes - The marrow of Alchemy

I think it might also have a lot to do with unaddressed imbalances in the birthchart.

Recently (as of last month) I decided to get more serious about my daily magical maintenance, and spirits I mentioned reacting poorly towards me or giving me 'extremely disruptive and toxic results' have done a complete 180, mostly from me looking after my neglected planets and performing daily honorary rites and offerings (not just protections).

Honestly after half a decade (fancy way of saying 5 years) of doing magic, I guess its really something I should've done sooner.Its such a basic understanding, I know, but negligence and laziness abound when it comes to the occult.. or else armchair-ism wouldnt be so rampant.

A lot of folks new to magic jump right into NAP so they may not necessarily know how or why to maintain different areas of their spiritual health. It could be a big factor.

A lot of my guidelines do come from Scheible's 6th and 7th Books, where he instructs the reader in Semiphoras und Schemhamphoras:

"The names of the seven angels over the seven heavens must be uttered first, and afterward the names of those over the seven planets, [then those] over the seven days of the week, [then] over the.seven metals, [and finally] over the seven colors. These must be uttered in the morning of each day of the week."

Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." - Matthew 21:31

Pablo wrote:I have been thinking about the negative effects of elubatel for some time. The sixth and seventh books of Moses state that he is one-third of a trinity that banished monsters. Michael is said to be the leader of God’s heavenly army that defeated the insurgent angels. Did anyone ever have such negative side effects from invoking Michael? It seems not.

My speculation is that elubatel comes from an earlier or older cohort than Michael or may be a foreign import. The origins really do not matter however. What is clear is that people invoked elubatel and their life got turned upside down but became better.Now someone once asked if there was anything that can be adapted from the ATR practices. I chose not to respond then but do so here (in part).I think that Elubatel basically gave a factory reset (as per modern PC terminology) to the invoker. This factory reset is necessary because the individual was not living the right life. The right life is not some pious sin free life but merely the life one was destined to live. This is where the ATR comment comes in. What I am proposing is that the wrong life comes from the consistently making the wrong decisions as they take you away from what you were born to do. If we could imagine the following thought experiment:A and B live New York. Both have opportunities to move to either Texas or Miami. A had a reading that indicated that he should not go for the big bucks straight away so Miami should be better. A moves to Texas because it pays more money and ignores the reading. B prefers to move to Miami because he thinks he is good at salsa and prefers to have more fun despite being paid less he also decided to following the advice of his reading. One year passes and A is suffering because he is under too much pressure and is not even finding the time to spend his salary. He is so unhappy that he had another reading that said change job and drop a few $000s salary. A would love to leave his job but he made some serious financial commitments.B is happy and has been promoted and is earning as much as A. B is out at slasa twice a week and now teaches. A year passes and both invoke Elubatel. A suffers a year of hell that started with his relationship crashing and burning. He developed a mystery illness that is in fact an allergy. He breaks his arm and spends a week in hospital towards the end of the year but he meets a really nice nurse who is not a raving beauty and is senior by two years but she is “wife material”. After a year of hell, he is offered a transfer to Miami as his boss dislikes him. He hates Miami as it is too damn hot from August to October and too Hispanic (his words not mine). He discusses it with his new GF who it turns out has family in Miami. She takes him for a reading and he is told it is a good idea to do so.The point is we are in a sense the product of our decisions. Sometimes the wrong decision is not the “Common sense “ choice. The simple fact is that getting genuine readings and taking the advice led to bringing one’s life back into line with our destiny as determined in heaven.A had to suffer his “factory reset” on his life before making progress. The best solution is to have regular readings and also when making major decisions. Elubatel got a bad rep because the fault was human. As I have said before Angels are there to serve god and are not human hence applying human attributes to them is patently unwise.

B was on the right track to begin with, A wasn't.

It makes me think about my own magic. My parallel experience (which wasn't with Elubatel, but had fallout similar to the experience of person A) was that I did success magic (both to get me into more of a "true path" with my vocation, and to help me finish my education) while already on a track with a career path I was on. But instead of advancing in that path and continuing my education in it, I ended up falling apart, mentally and physically (something like a nervous breakdown coupled with major chronic health problems), and unable to do the work I was doing. I lost everything - regular income, my car, had to move. I ended up going to school full time (a series of very fortunate synchs enabled this; the timing was perfect and the money was there while I was going) pretty much long enough to get the minimum training necessary in another employment field (I went from health care to graphic arts), one in which I could be self employed. My next trick will be to launch as a children's book author and artist. I've been wanting to do magic along those lines but have been worried about, what will be cut out from under me in order to do so? The parts of my life that haven't already been cut away, are parts that are good for me, that I like. I feel a bit reassured now. Especially since all of the readings have been positive. And especially since magic seems very compatible with self-employment and creative work.

Amxha wrote:I think it might also have a lot to do with unaddressed imbalances in the birthchart.

Recently (as of last month) I decided to get more serious about my daily magical maintenance, and spirits I mentioned reacting poorly towards me or giving me 'extremely disruptive and toxic results' have done a complete 180, mostly from me looking after my neglected planets and performing daily honorary rites and offerings (not just protections).

Honestly after half a decade (fancy way of saying 5 years) of doing magic, I guess its really something I should've done sooner.Its such a basic understanding, I know, but negligence and laziness abound when it comes to the occult.. or else armchair-ism wouldnt be so rampant.

A lot of folks new to magic jump right into NAP so they may not necessarily know how or why to maintain different areas of their spiritual health. It could be a big factor.

This is something that I have hinted at in the past as too many want to be a "Badass mofo" from the get go and summon the most potent demons to give them everything. This infantile disorder is like someone who passes their driving test today and enters Nascar tomorrow morning having had a good nights sleep!

Regarding the Birthchart imbalances I am not sure that people take birth charts seriously enough or even know how to address these imbalances. I do agree with you completely however as in my cosmology (which comes from the ATRs) the life path is defined before we incarnate however we forget it at birth hence we need to divine and act upon it. Hence the birthchart is a potent tool if taken seriously.

How about writing an OP about your Horary rites and practices???

Amxha wrote: A lot of folks new to magic jump right into NAP so they may not necessarily know how or why to maintain different areas of their spiritual health. It could be a big factor.

A lot of my guidelines do come from Scheible's 6th and 7th Books, where he instructs the reader in Semiphoras und Schemhamphoras:

"The names of the seven angels over the seven heavens must be uttered first, and afterward the names of those over the seven planets, [then those] over the seven days of the week, [then] over the.seven metals, [and finally] over the seven colors. These must be uttered in the morning of each day of the week."

I confess that I have only dipped into the 6th and 7th books of Moses. This seems like the sort of key that is often overlooked by the impatient. Perhaps you could draft a few for words for the grimoire section.

Wow! I have asked you to draft two OPs from one post. That is a record for me.

Rgds

pablo

The vulgar is at everyone's command. Eirenaeus Philalethes - The marrow of Alchemy

NoxLumina wrote:There is a lot of talk about Elubatel (which to my mind can be generalized to a lot of other success oriented magic) often completely upending a person's life, more or less backing them into a wall so that the person has to marshal their resources to become successful. These are two thoughts I have.

1 - Perhaps Elubatel's actual method is not to grant success, but to create the conditions under which you become successful. Which many people will experience as extreme upset in their exterior world. For example, the scenario where you do a working for success then end up fired from your job, losing your car, having to move, etc. It turns out that where you end up moving to is a better environment down the road. (I did a major working to be able to return to school in my 30s and these things happened. It was devastating and resulted in a type of PTSD related to my previous profession. I became a very different person and ended up in a completely different field.)

I've experienced similar things regarding other magic I've done, along the same lines, so it may just be how a lot of that type of magic works in real life. Especially when you're asking for something that involves a major life change or personality change, as opposed to something in the immediate that might be better served via a simple candle spell or sympathetic magic type of operation.

2 - Perhaps the degree of upheaval is relative to the number of obstacles. The things you're going to lose are things that were holding you back. If you're a person who's really rigid and stuck in their ways, and getting by, you may lose the foundation that enabled any of those things and find yourself in a position where you're forced to adapt or starve. As for Elubatel causing depression, perhaps one of the effects of working with that spirit is that you may be facing your own self-sabotage or low self worth that created your lack of success. Or become even more aware of it once you've cast for it. Has anyone found this the case?

Also, one last thing... I feel that a lot of people will have experienced these types of effects and made these types of observations if they've practiced any form of magic for a long time. Who is experiencing the severe fallout and or depression? Experienced practicioners, or beginners? There would be different implications in the case of each, I feel.

Hmm.....Wrong!....There experienced magicians here who have experienced depression following any working with Elubatel. Weve just had to back track and ask him what we are doing wrong. And really? Not a figment of my imagination with the feeling of this current....Most who really know Elubatel Know when hes around....

To be honest ....Its a different kind of depression, Its like to me i feel the depression and dont know why i do. Ive seen miracles happen when i work with El and should be elated with what is happening but still cant shake the sadness and dont know why. it normally last a couple days.

But this isnt always the case... I have felt extreme happiness with the success he has brought to me.

I asked Elubatel why i feel depression after i summon him...He said it is of my own self image that what i ask of him i subconsciously feel that it will fail.... So yes i guess it is of my own self destruction that i sabotage myself. He also noted that he doesnt have emotions therefore success can be given whether pain can be endured to achieve my goal. He has no concept of human feelings.

Interesting thou....He has no concept of time either... His words are take 2 seconds and split them apart between the past and the present...This is the energy that surrounds him. His time frame is in the now which might be to us days or hours or weeks