Originally posted by ares834 . Regardless, neither the CIS or the Empire seem to have truly formidable troops.

Which therein lies the problem for me...the CIS from the beginning with Episode 1 was all about overwhelming numbers, Episode 2 showed the same thing and TCW and so on.

The Empire...didn't come across that to me and given Troopers are humans compared to droids which are programmed with a specific set of directives. You'd think the elite Stormtroopers would show better given they have more freedom of thought, especially since in this new canon they are noted as elite shock troops like they were in Legends.

I kinda liked that the Storms are the elite Troopers and then they also had Army Troopers(who were terribly underrated and under utilized in Legends), made them separate from the other factions where they just had one troop set.

Of course Ares as you put, it's not really shown for them being elite troopers in Rebels. But in Legends, they most definitely were...so I hope the new EU does show this too.

Yeah, their StarWars.com databank entry still describes them as elite shock troops.

The problem is that even if I concede that the B1 is as useless as the stormtrooper, the B1 was specifically designed to be the Zerg Rush for the Separatists. The stormtrooper was not designed to be such for the Empire. The Separatists bolster their ranks with more effective models and iterations. Even super battle droids outperform stormies.

The Empire would take the Seps to the curb IMO, but given the context of the story, I agree that the CIS is portrayed to be much more consistently formidable against a far more capable adversary than the stormtroopers have ever been.

Well, like I said, in that case I'd say the problem lies with other canon material rather than Rebels. In the films, what made the Empire truly threatening was their far greater numbers and more advanced tech.

Nah, based on dialogue and performances in ANH and ESB, stormies were meant to be badass troops that the heroes only endured due to Plot Armor. The "Lolz stormies suck!" trope derives solely from literalists and revisionism. The same literalists and revisionists who really do believe Darth Vader is sluggishly slow and underpowered because of '70s stunt technology, choreography, and such.

Elements of canon are revamped all the time to better suit the story. That Rebels has clung to a silly notion of stormtrooper behavior is a colossal failure on the part of its writers.

Originally posted by ares834 Well, like I said, in that case I'd say the problem lies with other canon material rather than Rebels. In the films, what made the Empire truly threatening was their far greater numbers and more advanced tech.

They seemed pretty good in small numbers too. I mean 2 Scout Troopers essentially captured and sneaked up on Leia...well before Wicket got involved. They also staged an ambush on the Jawa sandcrawler, making it look like a Sand Person attack. The Scout Troopers during the bike chase gave an incredibly rough time against Luke and Leia, even knocking them both off their bikes.

Although to be fair Tempest, there have been some good showings in Rebels for Stormtroopers. Not many, but they are there.

Originally posted by The_Tempest Nah, based on dialogue and performances in ANH and ESB, stormies were meant to be badass troops that the heroes only endured due to Plot Armor. The "Lolz stormies suck!" trope derives solely from literalists and revisionism. The same literalists and revisionists who really do believe Darth Vader is sluggishly slow and underpowered because of '70s stunt technology, choreography, and such.

Outside of the beginning of ANH, they aren't portrayed as particularly formidable. Yes, the heroes had plot armor but such an excuse could easily be given to heroes of Rebels as well.

Edit: Now I'd agree there is a bigger discrepancy between how Rebels and the films portray Stormies and how TCW and the films portray battledroids.

Originally posted by ares834 Outside of the beginning of ANH, they aren't portrayed as particularly formidable. Yes, the heroes had plot armor but such an excuse could easily be given to heroes of Rebels as well.

Nah, all throughout ANH-ESB, stormies kicked ass. Even, as Zenwolf points out, in most of ROTJ they did their job extremely well. And the difference between Rebels' heroes and the OT's heroes is that the OT's heroes didn't treat stormies as jokes. Rebels' heroes literally scoff at them, treating them contemptuously.

When did they kickass in ANH and ESB (aside from them taking Tantive IV)? Sure, the take Echo Base in ESB but we never actually see this happen and I never got the sense this was due to anything other than far superior numbers.

Originally posted by ares834 When did they kickass in ANH and ESB (aside from them taking Tantive IV)? Sure, the take Echo Base in ESB but we never actually see this happen and I never got the sense this was due to anything other than far superior numbers.

Taking the Tantive, forcing the heroes to flee the Death Star {even Obi-Wan does his best to avoid a pair of stormies rather than fight them outright... and this was on Vader & Tarkin's orders to let them escape(!)}. Stormies/TIE pilots then lay waste to the Rebel pilots' run on the Death Star. In ESB, they take Echo Base, they seize Cloud City. In ROTJ, the scout troopers give Luke and Leia hell, they get the drop on the Rebels and even cope with the Ewok interference until Chewbacca commandeers an AT-ST.

Overwhelming numbers are an element of stormtrooper advantage. In the OT, they wield that advantage far more effectively. And nowhere do the heroes treat them as anything less than highly dangerous obstacles.

I'm not sure why you're defending their performance in Rebels and trying to undermine the stormies {quite frankly blowing their failures entirely out of proportion}. I use Vader as a parallel example: you and I both salivate at the new portrayal of Vader... which is quite frankly incongruous with how he's portrayed in the real-time choreography in the OT. So when it comes to Vader, you allow for modern interpretations to bend what we once saw. Why not just admit the Rebels have failed to apply this logic to stormtroopers, portray them terribly, and should find ways to make their central baddies more formidable?

BTW, I'm revisiting TCW's season 1 episode "Rookies" and the commando droids utterly shitstomp Rebels' stormtroopers as far as threat portrayals. Nowhere close to being in the same league.

Eh Tempest got it. Although for the Obi-Wan, him being found would just cause a whole mess of problems, not that he couldn't take on 2 lone Stormtroopers. Luke and co weren't really forced to flee either considering they were gonna leave anyway, the Storms and TIE pilots were just putting on a show so they didn't go...

"Hey wait, did we just seriously walk out of a moon sized battle station that easy? I think something is wrong with that.."

__________________"It didn't matter what they'd been before. All that mattered was that they were willing to fight—and maybe die—for the Alliance."―Col Serra.

Originally posted by Zenwolf Eh Tempest got it. Although for the Obi-Wan, him being found would just cause a whole mess of problems, not that he couldn't take on 2 lone Stormtroopers.

I'm not suggesting that Obi-Wan couldn't take on two stormtroopers, I'm just saying he treats them with more respect and takes them more seriously than Kanan and Aladdin do. That goes a long way towards establishing them as credible threats.

Originally posted by The_Tempest I'm not suggesting that Obi-Wan couldn't take on two stormtroopers, I'm just saying he treats them with more respect and takes them more seriously than Kanan and Aladdin do. That goes a long way towards establishing them as credible threats.

Originally posted by The_Tempest Taking the Tantive, forcing the heroes to flee the Death Star {even Obi-Wan does his best to avoid a pair of stormies rather than fight them outright... and this was on Vader & Tarkin's orders to let them escape(!)}. Stormies/TIE pilots then lay waste to the Rebel pilots' run on the Death Star. In ESB, they take Echo Base, they seize Cloud City. In ROTJ, the scout troopers give Luke and Leia hell, they get the drop on the Rebels and even cope with the Ewok interference until Chewbacca commandeers an AT-ST.

Most of those were do to a large number advantage far more so than in Rebels. On the Death Star there are hundreds of Stormtroopers of course they have to run. And I certainly wouldn't consider the Trench Run a good showing considering it's a few dozen Rebel ships vs a moon sized battle station.

Originally posted by The_Tempest I'm not sure why you're defending their performance in Rebels and trying to undermine the stormies {quite frankly blowing their failures entirely out of proportion}. I use Vader as a parallel example: you and I both salivate at the new portrayal of Vader... which is quite frankly incongruous with how he's portrayed in the real-time choreography in the OT. So when it comes to Vader, you allow for modern interpretations to bend what we once saw. Why not just admit the Rebels have failed to apply this logic to stormtroopers, portray them terribly, and should find ways to make their central baddies more formidable?

It's nice that Vader get's bad ass feats, but I've actually said I'm not a fan of how ridiculously powerful he is now. I was initially hoping we wouldn't get these over-the-top feats again like we did in the EU. Good for vs battles though.

With that said, I'd be perfectly happy if we also got some very skilled Stormtroopers as well. I just don't generally care if they are incompetent or not. My problem is I don't think they should be an elite branch of the Imperial military rather I think they should be the Imperial military's ground forces.

Originally posted by The_Tempest BTW, I'm revisiting TCW's season 1 episode "Rookies" and the commando droids utterly shitstomp Rebels' stormtroopers as far as threat portrayals. Nowhere close to being in the same league.

I won't disagree with you there. Though, it's probably the CIS at it's most threatening.

Originally posted by The_Tempest Intriguing. I guess we look at things differently: weak bad guys make the story weaker. That's one of my biggest gripes when TCW failed. It's just that Rebels is a lot worse with it.

Couldn't agree more than with weaker bad guys make for a weaker story. If the heroes don't have to overcome overwhelming odds in this kind of genre it diminishes the story and the heroes.

That is why I firmly believe in establishing the First Order as menacing and its leaders such as Snoke and Kylo Ren as badasses.

When you go for quantity over quality in such large numbers as intergalactic standing armies, not everyone will be elite. That's why units like Vader's 501st and 1st Order are so badass especially in comparison to the rank and file.

Well I don't usually talk s*** about Lucas (or Filoni), but I am getting a bit tired of them having to explain everything that happened in the OT. Things that were blatantly down to PIS and not the best choreography.

The stormtroopers being bad shots is one of those things. Ben clearly tells Luke in ANH that Imperial Stormtrooper shots are highly accurate. Now Filoni and crew have gone and made it "Canon" that they're bad shots, so Ben's line to Luke makes absolutely no sense, nor do numerous scenes in the OT.

DP gets it. It's textbook OT apologia at work. This shit was made in the '70s, which is why things looked slower, less agile, and generally archaic. But if you look at the shooting scripts and such, it reveals a whole nother world.