:::::Re-reading what you (FelixKatz) wrote at the opening of this page I can see what you mean. I (reluctantly) have to admit that sometimes places make it clear that they serve one clientel or another. My only reluctance at listing such places as I become aware of them is lack of expertise. Of course I still want to share the information, I just don't want to swear by the quality of the experience, 'cause if I send you there and you have a really bad experience I'll feel responsible for listing it without talking with anybody who goes there... Still there has to be some way to maybe just mix these in. Just 'cause lonely planet segregates doesn't mean we have to -- [[User:Mark|Mark]] 18:54, 1 Mar 2004 (EST)

:::::Re-reading what you (FelixKatz) wrote at the opening of this page I can see what you mean. I (reluctantly) have to admit that sometimes places make it clear that they serve one clientel or another. My only reluctance at listing such places as I become aware of them is lack of expertise. Of course I still want to share the information, I just don't want to swear by the quality of the experience, 'cause if I send you there and you have a really bad experience I'll feel responsible for listing it without talking with anybody who goes there... Still there has to be some way to maybe just mix these in. Just 'cause lonely planet segregates doesn't mean we have to -- [[User:Mark|Mark]] 18:54, 1 Mar 2004 (EST)

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==Focus==

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This article does have a lot of useful information. However I think it's a very strange thing to start off almost from the first sentence to state that Cologne is the gay capital. Although San Francisco has many gay people as well, I doubt most travel guides would start off with San Francisco is the gay capital. The idea of a guide is to focus on the many aspects of a city, what to see and do, and where to go, eat etc.. There is nothing wrong with having a section talking about this, but I don't think it's appropriate that this is in that first sentence. Is it more renowned for it's gay population, or it's history and architecture ? If you are telling a stranger why they should see Cologne is that first sentence, exactly what you would say ?

==Massage&Spa section==

==Massage&Spa section==

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Hi,

Hi,

I saw your deletion and reference to the audiotravel.com link as an “otherguide” on the Cologne page. It is, however, primarily an audio tour which I think fits well into the tours section-helping wikitravel visitors looking for a tour of Cologne. So, I updated the text and the format and added the AudioTravel link back in. [[User:Dina|Dina]] 10:15, 16 November 2006 (EST)

I saw your deletion and reference to the audiotravel.com link as an “otherguide” on the Cologne page. It is, however, primarily an audio tour which I think fits well into the tours section-helping wikitravel visitors looking for a tour of Cologne. So, I updated the text and the format and added the AudioTravel link back in. [[User:Dina|Dina]] 10:15, 16 November 2006 (EST)

''If you buy it bottled, take either "Reissdorf", "Früh" or "Mühlen", which are rated highest by Cologne citizens.''

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Well that is not in full accord with my observation (I live in Bonn that is located next to Cologne). All three brands are widely known but in the case of Früh it is rather due to advertisements while another Kölsch brand not listed above (Sion) is not strongly advertised but available at many Cologne pubs and restaurants. In Bonn it is very easy to obtain Früh (they do an excellent marketing job) but it is sometimes troublesome to obtain Sion so that brand seems to be a beer quite typical for Cologne itself. Perhaps one should rather say that the listed brands are the best known ones at Cologne and the surrounding area.

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That are just my 2 Euro Cent. I currently prefer Erdinger (brewery in Munich) Weißbier (beer brewed using wheat) dunkel (dark) so I render myself quite objective as far as Kölsch is concerned (and sorry that I not did create an account but chances are not too good that I will make more that a tiny number of contributions to Wikitravel) -- [[User:213.196.210.202|213.196.210.202]] 22:38, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

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== Please check this edit ==

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I cannot figure out if this edit was an objective correction or a puritanical purge - [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Cologne&curid=3331&diff=608124&oldid=603816&rcid=557374] &mdash; [[User:Ravikiran r|Ravikiran]] 02:10, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

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:Cologne is definitely known as the "gay capital" of Germany. I've reverted the edit and changed renowned to "known" because renowned sounded a little weird to me. -- [[User:Sapphire|Sapphire]] • <small>([[User_talk:Sapphire|Talk]])</small> • 03:54, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

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Hmmm known by who ? .. and capital ? capital of what ? ... this sounds like an attempt to increase gay tourisim or something.. I could care less.. but there it is. Again if you write "San Francisco is the gay capital of the US".. the intended meaning may be there, but it's a stupid way to state what your trying to say, and has little to so with the city as a travel destination.. If I search for "gay capitals" in google, I am sure that each country has a city.. yeah right.

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==Quickbar==

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We don't use quickbars for cities, so I'm putting this here. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 09:41, 9 September 2011 (EDT)

I'm still not quite sure about how to include information for gays and lesbians into the article -- on the one hand, we don't want to stray from the templates, which don't provide for a section on gay and lesbian information. So it seems prudent to include it under the other headings like "See", "Drink" etc.

On the other hand, you probably do want to mark certain places clearly as "gay" or "lesbian", for two reasons:

gays will be especially interested in those. Many gays feel more at home in gay locations when going out, and like to check out the local scene when traveling to another city. (Cologne has about a million gays from all over Germany and the neighbouring countries visiting for Christhopher Street Day.)

most straight people will want to be warned before stumbling into a gay or lesbian location -- they don't want to go to a place because it was recommended in Wikitravel, only to sit there uncomfortably and ask each other, "Hey, do you know why there's only women in here?" Yes, in most cases it's perfectly acceptable for straight travellers to go to gay places (except if a woman wants to go to a fetish bar with darkroom ... d'oh!), but most will want to be forewarned.

So I guess there's three options:

include the info in subsections under "See", "Drink" etc. Doesn't break the template, makes it hard to hunt for information, you have to skip large pieces if you're not interested

use a special section "Gay" to group the information, with the usual subheadings ("See", "Drink", etc.), which makes it easy to find, easy to skip, but breaks the template.

Create a sub-article, for example Cologne/Gay. I don't see sub-articles used much in Wikitravel and don't know the policy.

If this is a general issue, this is perhaps better discussed under Gay and lesbian travel or in this style guide.

Well, this has come up before and I think the way to go is just to mention that it is a gay/lesbian/fetish/yuppie/etc bar in the listing for the bar. I really dont like the idea of having a seperate Gay article. I can't imagine ending up in a gay bar or seeing "gay sights" (whatever that would be) is any worse than ending up in a yuppie bar, or a dive bar when you thought you we're goign somewhere hip or posh. Do we really want Cologne/Older Peoplem, Colonge/Blondes, Colonge/People with dogs? I think if San Francisco can handle gay-stuff and not-gay stuff (where are the bi-s supposed to drink anyway? ;-)) in the same happy rainbow colored template, than so can Cologne. You might want to take a look at the Wikitravel:Manual of style for more about how articles are broken up. thanks Majnoona 13:17, 1 Mar 2004 (EST)

In support of what MAJ was saying, I'd like to say that I think the gay-friendlyness of a place deserves the same level of attention as its other aspects. Frankly I would be less dismayed by winding up in a gay place from a link here than winding up in a place full of the xenophobes. Let's just make it something we mention in the text about a place. Some places here in Swizerland for instance are mostly gay one or two nights a week. I think that's also true in Amsterdam, and Cologne, and elsewhere. I think that information for the traveler without bias is the way to go. For instance there is a more-or-less famous gay bar in Geneva which has fantastic folk music on Thursdays, so as a straight traveler, I would rather know the place as is and the details of which nights are more straight-oriented, without having it sequestered under a "Gay" heading where I might totally miss it. -- Mark 17:52, 1 Mar 2004 (EST)

Let's put it this way -- if you go there for the folk music, put it under the heading "Folk music", if you go there because it's gay, but it under the "Gay" heading. That seems the natural division for me. And, frankly, there are a number of places for which the only reason of existence is that they're "gay". ;) (Yes, I read the guidelines about sex tourism. Still.) -- FelixKatz 18:05, 1 Mar 2004 (EST)

There is no header "Folk music", nor should there be. In my example this would mean lising a place a number of times, under different headers. I think it's alot more resonable to expect travelers with a special interest to be able to take out a highlighter (or better yet control-f) and find the bits of an article which have to do with their interest. I can totally understand that it would be a bit more convienient for gay travelers who want to hook up to have their own section, but really isn't it better in the long run to mix places in? It's certainly less discriminatory. -- Mark 18:29, 1 Mar 2004 (EST)

Re-reading what you (FelixKatz) wrote at the opening of this page I can see what you mean. I (reluctantly) have to admit that sometimes places make it clear that they serve one clientel or another. My only reluctance at listing such places as I become aware of them is lack of expertise. Of course I still want to share the information, I just don't want to swear by the quality of the experience, 'cause if I send you there and you have a really bad experience I'll feel responsible for listing it without talking with anybody who goes there... Still there has to be some way to maybe just mix these in. Just 'cause lonely planet segregates doesn't mean we have to -- Mark 18:54, 1 Mar 2004 (EST)

Focus

This article does have a lot of useful information. However I think it's a very strange thing to start off almost from the first sentence to state that Cologne is the gay capital. Although San Francisco has many gay people as well, I doubt most travel guides would start off with San Francisco is the gay capital. The idea of a guide is to focus on the many aspects of a city, what to see and do, and where to go, eat etc.. There is nothing wrong with having a section talking about this, but I don't think it's appropriate that this is in that first sentence. Is it more renowned for it's gay population, or it's history and architecture ? If you are telling a stranger why they should see Cologne is that first sentence, exactly what you would say ?

Massage&Spa section

I just started to bring in some infos when I klicked on the external links in the massage section... I took out the last link http://tantramassage.de/ because in my view it doesn't belong their! They massage is performed by a naked lady and includes the private parts. I don't think that qualifies for a normal massage section. I know that the attitude in Cologne might be more liberal and these kind of massage parlors are growing substantially in Germany. So in or out? jan 11:24 (EDT) 26 April 2006

From the website

"To avoid misunderstandings, we place emphasis on the fact that our services are massage services only - they do not include sexual services. Our guests only play a passive role." This listing isn't a violation of the Wikitravel:Sex_tourism_policy, though ethically it may be questionable to individual travellers or users. I, myself wouldn't visit this type of massage parlor, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be useful to someone else. If you want to remove it feel free to, however, one thing to remember is that someone else who think that the listing is useful may reinsert it. Cheers. - Sapphire 01:45, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

as I know the fine quality of the massages there I want to reinsert the adress. The attitude in Cologne is indeed much more liberal.
I also added some addresses for gay people, Cologne has the second biggest scene after Berlin
--SantanaCologne 15:40, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

At some point in time part of a disclaimer I had added to one of the massage parlor listings was removed. Túrelio further removed what was left of the disclaimer after noticing this I reverted the changes to the listing and reinserted the original disclaimer to address the concerns of Jan and anyone else who may have been surprised by the sensitive nature of the services. I also clearly state that no sexual services for money are permitted among the staff. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 10:29, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

Thanks Andrew for the clarification. I discussed that topic with friends from Cologne and there was split opinions but one consensus that there should be a label to it. I will set a link to the talk page to stop the editing or rewriting of that controversal topic. Jan 11:04, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

Eat

It seems a bit of a shame that all the restaurants currently listed in the Eat section are non-German cuisine. Cologne has a vast horde of bars and restaurants that serve fantastic traditional German food. Unfortunately I don't know any of their names so can't add them myself. Anyone got any favourites they wish to add? --Lancevortex 10:09, 18 Jan 2005 (EST)

Translation

Here's some links to autotranslations of the German version of this guide. Lots of content to mine:

Deleted link

Cologne and chocolate museum

There is no information on Ode de colonge, or the Chocolate museum, both very interesting sights.

If you have information on these musuems feel free to add them in. Try www.4711.com to find out about the original cologne. Also will you please sign your comments like this ~~~~ This will look like this: - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 18:18, 11 June 2006 (EDT)

adding the AudioTravel link back in

Hi,
I saw your deletion and reference to the audiotravel.com link as an “otherguide” on the Cologne page. It is, however, primarily an audio tour which I think fits well into the tours section-helping wikitravel visitors looking for a tour of Cologne. So, I updated the text and the format and added the AudioTravel link back in. Dina 10:15, 16 November 2006 (EST)

On the recommendation of Kölsch brands

If you buy it bottled, take either "Reissdorf", "Früh" or "Mühlen", which are rated highest by Cologne citizens.

Well that is not in full accord with my observation (I live in Bonn that is located next to Cologne). All three brands are widely known but in the case of Früh it is rather due to advertisements while another Kölsch brand not listed above (Sion) is not strongly advertised but available at many Cologne pubs and restaurants. In Bonn it is very easy to obtain Früh (they do an excellent marketing job) but it is sometimes troublesome to obtain Sion so that brand seems to be a beer quite typical for Cologne itself. Perhaps one should rather say that the listed brands are the best known ones at Cologne and the surrounding area.

That are just my 2 Euro Cent. I currently prefer Erdinger (brewery in Munich) Weißbier (beer brewed using wheat) dunkel (dark) so I render myself quite objective as far as Kölsch is concerned (and sorry that I not did create an account but chances are not too good that I will make more that a tiny number of contributions to Wikitravel) -- 213.196.210.202 22:38, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Please check this edit

I cannot figure out if this edit was an objective correction or a puritanical purge - [1] — Ravikiran 02:10, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

Cologne is definitely known as the "gay capital" of Germany. I've reverted the edit and changed renowned to "known" because renowned sounded a little weird to me. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 03:54, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

Hmmm known by who ? .. and capital ? capital of what ? ... this sounds like an attempt to increase gay tourisim or something.. I could care less.. but there it is. Again if you write "San Francisco is the gay capital of the US".. the intended meaning may be there, but it's a stupid way to state what your trying to say, and has little to so with the city as a travel destination.. If I search for "gay capitals" in google, I am sure that each country has a city.. yeah right.