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Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

Ummmm from my point of view ADMITTING he's been to therapy would be a GOOD marketing move. As LA was getting at, it helps to show he knows he was in the wrong.

But I just had to highlight this:.the misguided stereotypes that many in society put on those that go to therapy is real...

The man charged into the stands, has been looked at as something between a loose cannon and medically 'not quite right in the head' almost his whole NBA career, a technical foul magent, won a TKO over a Hidef camera, has been suspended numerous times including a season long suspension.... And you think Artest would have a marketing problem (and/or a problem with stereotyping) if he admitted to taking therapy?

And I dispute the 'fact' that people in therapy are all that looked down upon anyway.

The first step is admitting you have a problem and I personally would respect Artest MORE if he fessed up to the therapy sessions. Pretending he never had them simply worries me in that he hasn't fully taken responsibility for his actions.... IOW, he hasn't 'gotten it'.

And that said, I doubt therapy is a magic bullet or the be all-end all 'fix' to his problem (per se')... but it would show he is trying...

Not admitting to it makes me question whether it truly has gotten thru to him.

-Bball

this post makes it quite apparent who doesnt get it....

satisfying u that he gets it isnt part of the program....noone cares whether u think he gets it....ur a fan who, by his comments makes it quite apparent that you will always be prejudiced against him....so for those people noone really cares enuff to do things just to pacify you...

the only way things will ever change in the way that he is perceived is by behavior that shows that things have changed....not unlike the season 2 years ago...

announcing hes gone to therapy wont change that....as u said, even then u dont think that will really help, so why in the hell should he admit something that is very, very private, that by your own admission, wont make a difference??????

and if u think the nba wants to add to the stigma of ron artest by having the cloud of him seeing a shrink, then ur badly mistaken....

they want to use what has happened as a drawing card....but they dont want to add to the circus by throwing the shrink card into the mix....the last thing they want is a debate regarding whether someone with his history that is now in therapy should be allowed on the court...that opens up a whole new can of worms, one they dont want any part of....

im sorry if ur personal feelings make it impossible to see the real facts and how they relate to this whole thing....while the issue is incredibly private and is noones business, especially someone like u....the marketing issues affect the nba as a whole....and if u dont see the validity of keeping that out of the headlines then im sorry, but as i alluded to earlier, its not ron that doesnt get it...

satisfying u that he gets it isnt part of the program....noone cares whether u think he gets it....ur a fan who, by his comments makes it quite apparent that you will always be prejudiced against him....

You see what you want to see...

Anyway, satisfying me alone 'isn't part of the program' but satisfying the fanbase and casual observers that 'he gets it' IS part of the issue. There's enough of a debate here to tell me he has a ways to go yet.

the only way things will ever change in the way that he is perceived is by behavior that shows that things have changed....not unlike the season 2 years ago...

BINGO! ....And a start would be admitting he's had therapy and is trying to get something from it... not hiding from it and telling us how 'hood' he is.

I think it is mostly your own prejudice coming to light regarding therapy. I don't think the average American is going to have the reaction to it you are.

announcing hes gone to therapy wont change that....as u said, even then u dont think that will really help, so why in the hell should he admit something that is very, very private, that by your own admission, wont make a difference??????

I didn't say it wouldn't make a difference... What I was getting at was it is an ATTEMPT at making a difference. It might work... it might not. It depends how comitted Artest is at changing. It depends on how serious he is about.

As for it making a difference, there are never any guarantees.

We're not talking about him being locked away in an asylum somewhere undergoing shock therapy. There's no good reason that someone in his position should want to run from the fact he's spent some time on a couch talking thru his issues.

and if u think the nba wants to add to the stigma of ron artest by having the cloud of him seeing a shrink, then ur badly mistaken....

What is with this 'stigma' stuff you keep attaching to therapy? Again, we're not talking a frontal labotomy here. We're not talking padded cells and straight jackets.

I personally believe the NBA would love for Artest to publically admit to therapy to show the world he is trying to change and doing about anything possible.

It seems the two people who really have a problem with therapy are you and Ron Artest.

they want to use what has happened as a drawing card....but they dont want to add to the circus by throwing the shrink card into the mix....the last thing they want is a debate regarding whether someone with his history that is now in therapy should be allowed on the court...that opens up a whole new can of worms, one they dont want any part of....

im sorry if ur personal feelings make it impossible to see the real facts and how they relate to this whole thing....while the issue is incredibly private and is noones business, especially someone like u....the marketing issues affect the nba as a whole....and if u dont see the validity of keeping that out of the headlines then im sorry, but as i alluded to earlier, its not ron that doesnt get it...

I agree the DETAILS are private. I don't agree that admitting to trying therapy is any kind of problem at all. It helps with perception, not hurts IMHO.

You talk about 'real facts' yet you've only talked about opinions and speculation. You can disagree with my opinions and speculation all you want but don't delude yourself into thinking you somehow have the only real 'answer' and 'facts'.

It sounds to me like you'd be well served to read some of your own words and consider how they relate to you:im sorry if ur personal feelings make it impossible to see the real facts and how they relate to this whole thing

-Bball

Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

Anyway, satisfying me alone 'isn't part of the program' but satisfying the fanbase and casual observers that 'he gets it' IS part of the issue. There's enough of a debate here to tell me he has a ways to go yet.

BINGO! ....And a start would be admitting he's had therapy and is trying to get something from it... not hiding from it and telling us how 'hood' he is.

I think it is mostly your own prejudice coming to light regarding therapy. I don't think the average American is going to have the reaction to it you are.

I didn't say it wouldn't make a difference... What I was getting at was it is an ATTEMPT at making a difference. It might work... it might not. It depends how comitted Artest is at changing. It depends on how serious he is about.

As for it making a difference, there are never any guarantees.

We're not talking about him being locked away in an asylum somewhere undergoing shock therapy. There's no good reason that someone in his position should want to run from the fact he's spent some time on a couch talking thru his issues.

What is with this 'stigma' stuff you keep attaching to therapy? Again, we're not talking a frontal labotomy here. We're not talking padded cells and straight jackets.

I personally believe the NBA would love for Artest to publically admit to therapy to show the world he is trying to change and doing about anything possible.

It seems the two people who really have a problem with therapy are you and Ron Artest.

I agree the DETAILS are private. I don't agree that admitting to trying therapy is any kind of problem at all. It helps with perception, not hurts IMHO.

You talk about 'real facts' yet you've only talked about opinions and speculation. You can disagree with my opinions and speculation all you want but don't delude yourself into thinking you somehow have the only real 'answer' and 'facts'.

It sounds to me like you'd be well served to read some of your own words and consider how they relate to you:im sorry if ur personal feelings make it impossible to see the real facts and how they relate to this whole thing

-Bball

as i said...its apparent who doesnt get it....

if u somehow derived that i have some sort of problem or prejudice against therapy, well...lets just say ur ignorance seems to be growing....

ive clearly stated on here numerous times, that not only do i believe ron is getting treatment but it is much needed.....

its just that its none of ur business....nor mine...

and uve clearly made ur prejudices known by ur comments where the subject of ron is concerned....not to mention the latest one u just made regarding the hood....

there is a small minorty of the fanbase that will always have a problem with ron, no matter what he does....and people like u that feel they are owed some sort of detailed explanation regarding whats going on in his personal life- only to prove that he gets it- to u....well my guess is ron, pacers management and anyone else in the know and important would have the same type of feelings-that u can go take a flying leap....

if u dont think he gets it....fine....noone cares about that but u....most importantly neither ron or the management do....

managements responsibility is to put forth a product on the floor that is worth ur entertainment dollar....any personal issues of players that spill over to the floor will need to be rectified to their satisfaction....not yours...

as far as the fanbase needing to know that ron gets it....nothing could be further from the truth....what the fanbase needs to know is that ron will do everything in his power to help his team compete....and that will be shown on the floor during play....and few compete harder than ron does....the fanbase doesnt need to know what ron gets and what he doesnt get, nor do they need to know what hes doing in his personal life to better prepare him for lifes trials and tribulations....or what hes doing to deal with very personal and dramatic events that have taken place in his life....

what the fanbase needs is to mind their own business and concern themselves with the product on the floor and not the personal lives of the players....if ur angry that the product was disrupted, thats understandable...but it, in no way, gives u any right to pry into the personal lives of the players....

bottom line is apologies have been offered....but there will always be those that are too bitter to accept them....and those people would do well to follow in rons footsteps and seek help....because life is too short....

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

I think that it is a sad statment on society if Ron somehow feels there is any reason not to say I am going to therapy. Were I to lose millions of dollars because of my temper I would be the first to admit that my behavior or my job needs to change.

Furthermore as a man who makes millions of dollars because he is a public figure I would wish he had the courage to say that he is getting profesional help as a way to make therapy more acceptable for those he feels he has to hid it from.

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

if u somehow derived that i have some sort of problem or prejudice against therapy, well...lets just say ur ignorance seems to be growing....

ive clearly stated on here numerous times, that not only do i believe ron is getting treatment but it is much needed.....

its just that its none of ur business....nor mine...

First, I'm not into name calling just because I happen to disagree with you.

Secondly, I either wish Artest had admitted to the therapy head on or sidestepped it as out of bounds if he didn't want to talk about it. The denial worries me for the reasons previously stated.

and uve clearly made ur prejudices known by ur comments where the subject of ron is concerned....not to mention the latest one u just made regarding the hood....

What prejudices are you talking about?

there is a small minorty of the fanbase that will always have a problem with ron, no matter what he does....and people like u that feel they are owed some sort of detailed explanation regarding whats going on in his personal life- only to prove that he gets it- to u....well my guess is ron, pacers management and anyone else in the know and important would have the same type of feelings-that u can go take a flying leap....

if u dont think he gets it....fine....noone cares about that but u....most importantly neither ron or the management do....

managements responsibility is to put forth a product on the floor that is worth ur entertainment dollar....any personal issues of players that spill over to the floor will need to be rectified to their satisfaction....not yours...

as far as the fanbase needing to know that ron gets it....nothing could be further from the truth....what the fanbase needs to know is that ron will do everything in his power to help his team compete....and that will be shown on the floor during play....and few compete harder than ron does....the fanbase doesnt need to know what ron gets and what he doesnt get, nor do they need to know what hes doing in his personal life to better prepare him for lifes trials and tribulations....or what hes doing to deal with very personal and dramatic events that have taken place in his life....

what the fanbase needs is to mind their own business and concern themselves with the product on the floor and not the personal lives of the players....if ur angry that the product was disrupted, thats understandable...but it, in no way, gives u any right to pry into the personal lives of the players....

bottom line is apologies have been offered....but there will always be those that are too bitter to accept them....and those people would do well to follow in rons footsteps and seek help....because life is too short...

I'd like to agree with you.... but then we'd both be wrong.

-Bball

Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

I think that it is a sad statment on society if Ron somehow feels there is any reason not to say I am going to therapy. Were I to lose millions of dollars because of my temper I would be the first to admit that my behavior or my job needs to change.

Furthermore as a man who makes millions of dollars because he is a public figure I would wish he had the courage to say that he is getting profesional help as a way to make therapy more acceptable for those he feels he has to hid it from.

Books and movies reveal a lot of societies attitude, whether it paints it for them, or just reveals them is for a different discussion though.

Go out and watch a movie that has a character who goes to therapy in it. Then come back and tell me if therapy is viewed as a positive or a negative.

Just because Ron is a professional basketball player, doesn't mean he should have to air every piece of dirty laundry he has, to benefit fan's minds. It's not any of your business to know if he sees a therapist, nor is it any of mine to know if you do. There's quite a lot of people that do just fine getting over things by themselves after a rude wake up call, then there's others that need help. Why don't we wait to pass judgement on a new script, instead of rushing to uninformed conclusions.

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

I think that it is a sad statment on society if Ron somehow feels there is any reason not to say I am going to therapy. Were I to lose millions of dollars because of my temper I would be the first to admit that my behavior or my job needs to change.

Furthermore as a man who makes millions of dollars because he is a public figure I would wish he had the courage to say that he is getting profesional help as a way to make therapy more acceptable for those he feels he has to hid it from.

Thank you! I wish I could've made this point so succinctly.

-Bball

Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

I think that it is a sad statment on society if Ron somehow feels there is any reason not to say I am going to therapy. Were I to lose millions of dollars because of my temper I would be the first to admit that my behavior or my job needs to change.

ur missing the point....totally....i wont even go into the fact of whether he lost millions due to his temper...thats been rehashed....the point is u might be the first to admit it...but in no way should u feel compelled to share that decision with the world...ur boss? yes...ur closest of close relatives? yes....the whole friggen world? no...no way...and u know it...

Furthermore as a man who makes millions of dollars because he is a public figure I would wish he had the courage to say that he is getting profesional help as a way to make therapy more acceptable for those he feels he has to hid it from.

its not about courage....sharing ur most intimate secrets of ur personal life doesnt make u courageous....

im sure there are lots of people that would like stars to come out and admit they have the same problems that alot of society does....

but just because they make millions and are in the public spotlight, doesnt mean they have to open up their personal life for the world to see...

he gets paid millions to play basketball....not to be a public advocate and example for the pros and cons of therapy....one could argue that him coming out and admitting it could do as much harm as it could good....the naysayers would say, "if thats what therapy does, i want no part of it"....its a no win situation...and why private lives should be kept private, like it or not....

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

What I don't understand is why Ron would deny he was undergoing therapy. When something is mandated so you can go back to work you just do it. It doesn't mean you are crazy, just that it was a requirment to go back to work.

I'm thinking what's at the bottom of this is Ron has been called crazy and he thinks that admitting therapy means admitting he was crazy. Probably something as simple as that.

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

Off the top of my head I can name Good Will Hunting and 28 Days as movies which portray therapy as a positive. If you are talking about movies made in the 70's like One Flew over the Coo Coo's Nest and Clockwork Orange (which both were based one books written further back) then, yes, there is a negative view. But that reflects the 70's not 2005. Recent movies are more positive about therapy.

As far as Ron should or shouldn't have to say? For the most part I agree with you that he doesn't have to. I do wish that as man who makes millions for being in the public eye that he would use his influence to de-stygmatize a profession that is helpful to 10's of millions non-scientologist.

As far as what Ron did was he lied further stygmatizing that very same profession.

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

As long as I'm Ron's ad-hoc employer, I have a keen interest in the Pacer's major employees.

The Pacers are, by virture of their dependence on the city of Indianapolis and the citizenry of Indiana, a publicly traded company (in a way more or less unique to professional sports franchises). As such, and as a financial contributor to said company, I should be privy to the kind of information that determines whether or not my investment is worth my time and resources. In this instance, it's unfortunate that Ron's decision to accept or reject professional help has to become a public issue. Regardless, it still has to be an issue the investing public should know about.

Another blow-up and he can ruin an entire season, throw a multi-million dollar business into chaos and turmoil, and once again ruin the emotional and financial investments of literally millions of people.

So you need to know whether or not Bill Gates sees a shrink before you buy Windows stock?

For some reason I have a tingle that leads me to believe that even if another brawl happened, it would just involve :Artest: and not more than him.

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

As long as I'm Ron's ad-hoc employer, I have a keen interest in the Pacer's major employees.

The Pacers are, by virture of their dependence on the city of Indianapolis and the citizenry of Indiana, a publicly traded company (in a way more or less unique to professional sports franchises). As such, and as a financial contributor to said company, I should be privy to the kind of information that determines whether or not my investment is worth my time and resources. In this instance, it's unfortunate that Ron's decision to accept or reject professional help has to become a public issue. Regardless, it still has to be an issue the investing public should know about.

Another blow-up and he can ruin an entire season, throw a multi-million dollar business into chaos and turmoil, and once again ruin the emotional and financial investments of literally millions of people.

ummm...u might like to know....but ur dreaming if u think u have any right to know....its very simple....as with any other company, no matter how much of a stretch ur analogy is.....you have no right to know the goings on in the private lives of others within the company....and if u cant handle that, or if ur investment is conditioned on that circumstance....then u wont be investing in that company....quite simple....

in ur example the players are the executives....with bird and walsh and the simons being the board of directors....the board will know the details....but thats it....no way in hell they make that sort of private info made public....not to mention it being a right to privacy issue...

as ive said repeatedly....outside of a very select few....its nobodys business...some of u might not like that....but thats life...you can always choose to invest in the colts and their admitted gun toters

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

I attempted, albeit poorly, to phrase my statement to be unique to professional sports.

But yes, I would be interested in whether or not the head of a multi-billion dollar business was being brough tup on charges, and if he complied with the terms of his "probation". I would think all of those things would have a rather direct impact on the price of said company's stock.

The fate of the pacers doesn't hang by a thread with Ron holding on the dangling end.

Pacers brass have quite a bit more of information regarding the situation, and if they feel like he needs cut, then I expect them to cut their losses.

I don't see how not admitting he sees a therapist, means he's not admitting he has a problem. He's said numerous times he knows he has a problem. If he's admitting he has some sort of problem, and is actually seeing a shrink, I don't see how it's a negative thing. Heaven forbid he keeps his private life, private.

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

I attempted, albeit poorly, to phrase my statement to be unique to professional sports.

But yes, I would be interested in whether or not the head of a multi-billion dollar business was being brough tup on charges, and if he complied with the terms of his "probation". I would think all of those things would have a rather direct impact on the price of said company's stock.

u do know that hes been brought up on charges.....

as far as probation goes....he hasnt been convicted of anything yet...but u will know that when it happens....if convicted, then the probation thing can be addressed then....though its really none of ur business if hes complying but only if hes not, might it be an issue...

it still has nothing to do with him seeing a therapist being made public.....employers make conditions of employment for many employees.....they dont make such conditions public knowledge....its illegal....called a right to privacy...

and u know what....this is all really a joke...because the same people on here saying how they were put off by him denying it are the same people that would be on here saying they were put off by something else he does...doesnt matter...some people will never be satisfied....and they know that....

the simple fact they say "he doesnt get it" really says it all....

doesnt get what???? the fact millions of fans are jealous or resentful and want to get inside his life? oh he gets that....

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

We do actually have a "right" to know these things in these sort of situations. That's why companies are forced to release quarterly stock reports, much in the same way the Pacers are "forced" to deal with the media and public scutiny that runs hand-in-hand with professional sports.

But you've said to the contrary repeatedly, so there's no possible way anyone else could be correct.

you are grossly mistaken if u think companies are obligated to put in quarterly stock reports if their employees or executives are seeking therapy....

do u realize how ridiculous that is.....its illegal....dont u get it???

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

Ah, but when he decided to put his emotional and personal problems on display on an almost nightly basis for a number of years, cumulating in the largest brawl in NBA history, and doing so in a profession that demands a high of level of personal interaction with fans and the public, he intentionally (although doubfully knowingly) gave up the right to keep those sort of problems entirely in his private life.

As for how much power the Pacers brass holds, I agree (and wish they had cut their losses a while ago). They've made the decision to hang onto Ron, however (and I hope they're right in doing so, there's no question about his talent and potential positive impact). But all it takes it one flair-up one day before a trade can be consumated to blow-up yet another season.

How did he put his emotional and personal problems on display? If he sat there crying about his problems, thats one thing, but I saw him doing his job, then taking offense to ONE persons actions. That's hardly his life story there.

So because he went into the stands, do you need to know if he's ever cheated on his wife? That's a personal problem, and according to you, he gave up every aspect of his private life when he jumped the scorer's table.

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

[QUOTE=btowncolt]Ah, but when he decided to put his emotional and personal problems on display on an almost nightly basis for a number of years, cumulating in the largest brawl in NBA history, and doing so in a profession that demands a high of level of personal interaction with fans and the public, he intentionally (although doubfully knowingly) gave up the right to keep those sort of problems entirely in his private life.[QUOTE]

Ah, but when he decided to put his emotional and personal problems on display on an almost nightly basis for a number of years, cumulating in the largest brawl in NBA history, and doing so in a profession that demands a high of level of personal interaction with fans and the public, he intentionally (although doubfully knowingly) gave up the right to keep those sort of problems entirely in his private life.

Because he plays basketball, he has no private life, and he gave up his private life intentionally, but he didn't know he gave them up.

How can you do something intentionally, but you don't know that you did it?

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

its not about courage....sharing ur most intimate secrets of ur personal life doesnt make u courageous....

he gets paid millions to play basketball....not to be a public advocate and example for the pros and cons of therapy....one could argue that him coming out and admitting it could do as much harm as it could good....the naysayers would say, "if thats what therapy does, i want no part of it"....its a no win situation...and why private lives should be kept private, like it or not....

1)Telling people they totally miss the point isn't really helpful in arguing your point or furthering dialogue. When you start a response that way it tells me I saw what you wrote and either you think I'm stupid or you've made little effort to see my point. I don't believe that either of those messages were what you were trying to communicate.

2)I completely disagree with the idea that a person admitting that they have a problem and getting help for it has nothing to do with courage. If that is how you truely feel then perhaps that is why we disagree.

3)This is a bit off subject on my part but NBA players do not make thier money because they play basketball. If simply playing basketball earned money the Milkan's family would have been able to afford his burrial costs.

NBA players make money because people pay to watch them play basketball and take an interest in thier personalities. This is especially true in the star driven promotions of the NBA.

Bottom line is that Ron makes millions for being in the public eye. He is under no obligation to use that fame for good causes. (Ron in fact does and is a very generous person.) However, in this case I think he made a mistake. He should have had an answer ready that wasn't a lie.

By the way I wish people who think that therapy is a personal issue would apply that same logic to drug use, law infractions, personalities and sex lives. Those issues usually aren't said to be out of bounds and the only reason I think that in this case it is different is that Ron is a Pacer.

Re: Reggie on ESPN Radio

By the way I wish people who think that therapy is a personal issue would apply that same logic to drug use, law infractions, personalities and sex lives. Those issues usually aren't said to be out of bounds and the only reason I think that in this case it is different is that Ron is a Pacer.

Last time I checked, denying you are going to therapy wasn't a crime, but hey that's just my reading comprehension skills at work.

Hopefully he doesn't go to jail for it.

(Amazing that denying something is now considered on par with infractions that can land you in jail for 3+ yrs.)