I think everyone is using everyone else as pawns and proxies. Heh. A pixie proxy.

In the end though, this is just going to be a really convoluted story that Mara came up with during a fever dream, when all is said and done, the only one walking away from it all is the lycanthropes. Because, you know...

Quantum Alchemist wrote:Sorry, been away for a week due to family RL medical emergency. I missed a thread on angelic hierarchy, too, and that's an interest of mine! Damn it. Anyhow...

My current theory is that Jack is being groomed to replace 'God', aka the Narrator aka (well, you know how it goes).

Hm. Interesting thought. Groomed by whom, though? By all sides, with each hoping he'll favour them once he's in place, or by just one side, and others have different plans for him?

I lean towards the latter; it seems unlikely that All-Father Azathoth's faction is pro-Narration. They seem to want Jack more as an Earthly messiah/representative/general(?), to pave the way for their inevitable Coming and the annihilation of reality as we know it. This seems particularly likely since they created, and clearly still want, multiple Children, rather than just Jack himself.

As far as the mysterious "Masters," I figure they're the group looking to make him Narrator, as you speculate. No doubt with the belief that his No-Soul technique will protect him from the insanity that ultimately made Mara unable to continue in the position.

Also, I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing a Lycanthrope-free universe. They just can't catch a break.

Bushi

Life can be seen like chess, or pinball. In chess you try to win, thus ending the game, as quickly as possible. In pinball, the goal is to keep playing.

Ooooh, interesting theory Quantum. I like.
Assuming you are right, and I'm not convinced yet, they were probably trying to (re)create as many types of lost monsters/abilities as they could. Jack apparently being among the more dangerous results. That assumes I'm remembering the Mom/Loki conversation properly.
That means we have a soulless mana vampire, a paranoid dimensionist/chaos mage, and 3 others. I'm guessing the three will end up as adversary of the month type of thing. But we'll see.

'Never appeal to a man's 'better nature'. He may not have one. Invoking his self-intrest gives you more leverage.' -Lazarus Long

Quantum Alchemist wrote:Sorry, been away for a week due to family RL medical emergency. I missed a thread on angelic hierarchy, too, and that's an interest of mine! Damn it. Anyhow...

Hope everything's OK now, or at least manageable. The angelic discussion has barely ended, so I don't see why you can't jump in if you want.

My current theory is that Jack is being groomed to replace 'God', aka the Narrator aka (well, you know how it goes).

It would tend to explain why Doug's cooperating with his masters. Like many others in the Host he saw and was deeply concerned over Mara's increasing instability and saw the need to replace her for the good of everyone, possibly to avoid or forestall a new Ontology War such as we now see developing. It also explains why he's apparently working without the knowledge of the rest of the Host, which in general might not have reacted well to one of their number actively working to replace the boss even if she was crazy.

I wonder how the masters intend to control Jack once their plan succeeds? I mean, it's hard to imagine they'd think him well-disposed to them after he takes Mara's place having been manipulated into it against his will. So they can't rely on his favor. And now he's immune to any bindings based on his True Name and has become very highly motivated to avoid or break any form of external control. They may have a Sorcerer's Apprentice problem at the end of all this.

Quantum Alchemist wrote:A few other things... we know know that Thera (as Thera, that is, not the part of her that's Hel) is actually his daughter, not just some random Nephilim, as well.

What does that actually mean, though? How do parental relationships work in those circles?

And who -are- these Masters? And why do they seem so sure of their ability to kill Thera/Hel on whim?

Okay. Well, we can be confident they aren't agents of chaos. My current best guess is the Greys; they might well have been interested in Jack's personality for something more than just communicating with humans. Certainly they have a history of working from the shadows, through agents, and I don't particularly see why those agents couldn't be angelic. As for their seeming sure that they could kill Thera on a whim... As far as using Doug as an agent, all that matters is that he's convinced of it.

Failing that, could be the brain-squids. Thera was nervous about Frank and Hook showing up so conveniently, and we shouldn't discount her having a good reason.

Bushi

Life can be seen like chess, or pinball. In chess you try to win, thus ending the game, as quickly as possible. In pinball, the goal is to keep playing.

And who -are- these Masters? And why do they seem so sure of their ability to kill Thera/Hel on whim?

Okay. Well, we can be confident they aren't agents of chaos. My current best guess is the Greys; they might well have been interested in Jack's personality for something more than just communicating with humans. Certainly they have a history of working from the shadows, through agents, and I don't particularly see why those agents couldn't be angelic. As for their seeming sure that they could kill Thera on a whim... As far as using Doug as an agent, all that matters is that he's convinced of it.

Failing that, could be the brain-squids. Thera was nervous about Frank and Hook showing up so conveniently, and we shouldn't discount her having a good reason.

Consider the setting in which all conversation with the masters takes place. Doug looks just like Jack talking to his (bogus, we now know) chained self, and that was an internal dialogue. This talk is therefore happening inside Doug's head. (Or wherever SD angels keep their brains.) So whatever they are, they're creatures with strong psychic powers. To me, this militates far more for brainsquids than anything else we've encountered so far. Note that there's been one in Jack's immediate social circle for quite some time now, behaving in such a way that everyone thought it innocuous. Was this deliberate so as to keep tabs on him? Are Frank and his squid double agents, working both for the Illuminati and for the squids' own agenda?

Whatever they are, they probably didn't set up the situation that caused Jack to permanently chain his soul since it appears the masters are opposed to Azathoth. (Or at least whatever's under Azathoth's influence is beyond theirs.) But they sure took deft advantage of the opportunity they were presented. That suggests constant surveillance -- and Frank was of course present with a bullet-wounded brainsquid at the time. (Possibly the bullet was nothing more than an annoyance to it.)

It might be argued that since the squid didn't seem to take advantage of its earlier opportunity to do the same thing earlier when it was bringing Jack out of his coma, it's unlikely it would have done it under pressure later. But at that time Jack would have had no motivation. What could possibly have moved him to do what he did if he hadn't been compelled to gun down his friends?

Personally I'm hoping this is all baloney and it's some entity(s) we haven't met yet.