It shouldn’t be controversial to maintain women-only spaces

A women-only health spa in Toronto has recently come under fire by a vocal group of transgender activists and allies as a result of their admission policy. Body Blitz Spa operates two clothing-optional locations which feature pools and saunas and offer therapeutic treatments. Body Blitz has been a popular oasis in the city for women of various backgrounds, age groups, and body types for a number of years.

That may change. The spa has been accused of transphobia after an individual posted a complaint on social media stating that Body Blitz refused entry to their partner, who identifies as a transwoman. While the ensuing controversy might lead one to assume that the establishment excludes trans people, this isn’t actually the case. The spa isn’t technically female-only — their policy is to admit only females and male-born trans people who have undergone a full physical transition. In other words, no male genitalia.

To most people, this policy is neither surprising nor controversial. However, shortly after Body Blitz published a (since deleted) post on their Facebook page to inform patrons that they were reviewing their women-only policy in an effort to provide a comfortable environment for everyone, the page was flooded with angry comments and reviews, some of which were from people outside of the Toronto region and even Canada.

“Remember lesbians and gays banned from change rooms of health clubs? This is the same thing.”

Some lesbians and gays might have a problem with DiNovo, who is in a heterosexual marriage, leveraging their struggles in order to draw a parallel to an issue that is fundamentally different in nature from homophobia. Notably, many of the women who advocate for female-only spaces are lesbians. Discrimination against homosexuals centers on baseless beliefs about how males and females should behave and relate to each other and has never involved existential debates. Because sexual orientation is objectively determined, it’s always been clear who we’re referring to when we talk about LGB people, the resistance to whom has only ever appealed to questions of morality.

While DiNovo’s comments may appeal to those concerned about gay and lesbian rights, there’s a key difference between sexual orientation and gender identity: sexual orientation describes the preferences of individuals, whereas queer theory dictates that everyone has a gender identity, whether or not they agree. As a result, we’re all expected to participate in this ideology, thereby modifying our views about our own lives and our basic knowledge of the world.

“… Each person’s internal and individual experience of gender. It is their sense of being a woman, a man, both, neither, or anywhere along the gender spectrum.”

Whereas it’s often said that gender identity is unrelated to biological sex, the OHRC states that “sex… includes a broader notion of ‘gender,’ which can be described as the social characteristics attributed to each sex.”

Even people who view gender identity as a legitimate concept can’t seem to agree on how it works.

Bill C-16 passed at the Senate on Thursday. Under this new Canadian legislation, which follows similar laws in a number of Western countries, a person can determine their gender or sex via self-declaration at any time and for any reason. It’s considered a human rights violation to question it. No criteria, physical markers, or tests have been identified to determine trans status. As an inherently individualistic idea, gender identity isn’t tethered to any external reality and is therefore considered immune from qualification or broader critical analysis.

If an individual’s identity doesn’t impinge on anyone, it’s easy to accept it at face value. But when an individual transitions into a group of people who face different challenges, questions will naturally arise about whether opportunities reserved for those who are marginalized in their own right will be inevitably claimed by these new members, once again making it more difficult for the original members to get ahead. Already, we’ve seen a handful of examples of males who transitioned later in life showered with praise and handed awards reserved for women, who have spent their entire lives enduring patriarchy as females.

Remarkably, troubling philosophical questions remain unaddressed. If gender identities are determined on an individual basis with no parameters around what they mean, it follows that there can be as many genders as there are human beings. If each individual has a purely self-determined identity, then, by definition, these inherently unique identities can’t be shared with anyone else. No one person can experience another person’s thoughts or feelings to verify that they are thinking or feeling the same things. How can males, or anyone for that matter, know that they feel like a woman? Even if, for the sake of argument, we accept the tautology that a woman is a person who identifies as a woman, the logical conclusion is that “woman” can mean anything and therefore means nothing.

And yet women exist.

Despite a lack of clarification and broad consensus on this, women are vilified simply for asking questions. We’re expected to abandon all prior experiences and notions of ourselves, most especially those that relate to our female embodiment and the oppression that stems from it. Sex-based protections have been effectively dissolved. When it comes to female-only facilities, human rights law is clear: a male who claims the identity of “female” or “woman” can’t be turned away. If a woman has concerns or is in a vulnerable position, her options are to somehow get over it or leave. What this tells women and girls who are survivors of male violence is that females’ right to refuge and privacy away from males is negotiable and that they come last. This is an insidious form of grooming that tells women and girls that they are hysterical for recognizing the epidemic of discrimination and violence directed at them and that they must prioritize the feelings of others over their own sense of self-preservation.

Though frequently twisted, the argument here isn’t that trans people in particular pose a threat. The issue is that as long as gender identity rests on self-declaration, it is impossible — and illegal — for females to distinguish between males who simply wish to live as transgender women and other males. This is an unwarranted burden to place on women and girls, who shouldn’t be obligated to have or divulge a history of trauma in order to justify maintaining independent spaces (not that it makes a difference when they do anyway).

The right for any group — particularly if vulnerable and marginalized — to have their own autonomous spaces is a basic principle of social justice and critical to their well-being. Women’s freedom to share their experiences and thoughts, and to organize without the presence or interference of men — their oppressors — is a fundamental tenet of feminism and has been essential to our progress. Similarly, women who have common needs as a result of discrimination in the form of ableism, racism, homophobia, biphobia, poverty, etc., have the right to exclude other women in order to promote their own interests, since only they can fully understand their particular challenges and advocate for them. There will always be opportunities for such groups to support each other in solidarity and join together where their interests intersect.

Many women sympathize with the struggles of trans people and are happy to support and accommodate them on their journey. As the implications of gender identity politics and laws become clearer, however, difficult discussions will need to take place. Expressions of trans identities are in constant flux. Some people see themselves as a man one moment and a woman the next, neither, or a bit of both — the list is endless. Although it’s still commonly assumed that trans people take hormones, change their presentation and undergo full sex/gender reassignment surgery, this is not necessarily the case, as these are individual choices that aren’t required in order for trans status to be recognized (at least not in Canada). Many transwomen now forego bottom surgery. While it’s widely claimed that being trans isn’t a choice, as trans people suffer from dysphoria and transition is a means of survival, an increasing number of people now identifying as trans say this is not true for them and that dysphoria is not a necessary component of trans identity.

Women who are learning and trying to wrap their heads around this don’t deserve to be bullied. Today, women are told that our understanding of biological sex is false — that sex is, in fact, an illusion that we have to let go of unless we want to be considered violent bigoted transphobes.

You don’t have to interact with the fringes of the trans activist community to hear these claims. In a televised debate in October 2016, Nicholas Matte, a lecturer and PhD candidate employed by a top Canadian university who teaches subjects including race, lesbianism, feminism, and women’s studies, dismissed sex as a “popular misconception,” explaining that “it is not correct that there is such a thing as biological sex.” There are plenty of examples of activists and allies referring to “female penises” (there’s a less polite term for this if you google it but proceed at your own risk) and “women with penises.” We’re told that transmen have always been male and transwomen have always been female (what these people have transtioned from is then unclear).

In this worldview, there’s no objective reality. The controversy around Body Blitz’s no-penis policy is a case in point.

The fact that this postmodern ideology is at odds with pretty much every major authority on human biology doesn’t seem to matter. What the vast majority of well-educated people understand about our species turns out to be tragically flawed. Countless sources, such as the Encyclopedia Britannica, still clearly delineate the male and female reproductive systems with no ambiguity about penises being male sex organs, yet women in particular are being gaslighted, smeared, no-platformed, and threatened with violence when they repeat these facts.

Stating basic facts about human biology says nothing about the humanity or value of people who identify as trans and to claim that disagreeing with an individual’s self-perception is tantamount to hating them or driving them to suicide is manipulative and disingenuous. Any gender identity skeptic who denies a trans person a job or housing or is otherwise cruel or violent toward them isn’t behaving that way because they’ve considered the philosophical underpinnings of their beliefs and decided that they are wrong. More to the point, women who speak about their own lives aren’t implicated in the discriminatory actions of others. The people who kill and harm females, trans people, and other gender non-conforming people are almost invariably chauvinist, insecure men whose masculinity is so critical to their sense of power that they seek to harm those they consider beneath them.

Transwomen are exposed to a great deal of violence through the sex trade and on account of racialized violence. There’s no question that trans people need support. Ultimately, trans people understand their needs best and should be the ones to advocate for themselves. The same is true for women and their self-determination through feminism. While women and transwomen are different in important ways, different and equal are not mutually exclusive concepts. This understanding can lay the groundwork for collaboration on the issues that concern us all.

Under no circumstances should women be expected to deny their own material reality and constrain their thoughts according to the psychological states of others. Nor must they prioritize the interests of others above their own. In a diverse society where there are competing rights, a balance must be struck in recognizing everyone’s entitlement to liberty. A state whose mandate is to force its citizenry to validate others’ sense of self and adopt their views is inconsistent with democratic principles and leaves vulnerable classes of people open to exploitation and abuse.

Brandy Sudyk is a Toronto-based compliance analyst who writes about feminism and social justice in her spare time.

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The fact that in the 21st century, women, who call themselves feminist go around and help penis havers to erase female-only spaces and are applauded for it, shows how much this world hates women and how progressive this seems to be again.

Hekate Jayne

Over 2 decades ago, I was married to an abusive dick. It lasted less than a year, and most of that year was me trying to escape. Which I finally did.

I finally got him to leave when he could move in with another woman (parasites, they can’t exist without a mommy). But he kept coming into my house. He would take random things and money. I had 2 jobs, and he had none. So he would wait for me to leave, come in and help himself to dishes, sheets, toilet paper, money, etc.

According to the law, I couldn’t keep him out. That as long as we were not divorced, my address was his to use, and his address was for me to use.

It’s all very equal. See? As the huge, white, male, dumbass asshole cop explained to me.

I didn’t want to go into his (girlfriend’s) house. And if I had tried that, I know exactly what he would have done. I tried to avoid anything on my end that would have provoked a black eye, a bloody nose, marks on my throat. But the law, created and enforced by males, made it so that I couldn’t escape without money for a divorce. And that was called equality.

Proximity to males is proximity to violence because males are violent. We don’t make them violent. They choose it. And now, they have made it so that we can’t escape them ever.

They know exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it. We exist only as they allow it and only in relation to them. They don’t even pretend to see us as human, anymore. We have been reduced to a feeling, a space to inhabit as a sexual fetish. How we feel or what we want has never mattered and this is just following to the natural conclusion of males’ destruction of everything. Unfortunately, that includes us.

lk

Thank goodness you got away from him.

“According to the law, I couldn’t keep him out.”
This is one of the things I don’t like about marriage, the legal entanglements and the way it literally traps you.

Honestly, I’m all about that bachelorette life 🙂

I love being free and doing what I want to do. I’m 31 and people are always in my business about how I don’t date, haven’t been married, need to get married and blah, blah. I used to give a nice polite answer, now I just say…”I’ll get married if he is very old, very rich and dying.” Haha, they usually don’t ask again after that response…

“Proximity to males is proximity to violence because males are violent.”

Excellent point. Someone on here commented awhile back that the transmovement creates a world where women cannot have any space, any time away from male surveillance; we are basically always under the male gaze. To add in your point, the transmovement creates a world where women cannot have any space away from the threat or possibility of male violence.

Hekate Jayne

They also know that we would never attend a space where males were going about naked. Going out alone at night is enough for males to rape us and have their justice system protect them. Can you imagine? If a woman went into a space where males went about naked? And was assaulted?

They don’t want to be welcome in any female space. They want to harrass, threaten, control us. They want us to know that we aren’t allowed to say no. And they want us to know that their male law will force us to submit.

Rich Garcia

This may sound like I’m generalizing, but I’m noticing a tendency from heterosexual women on the Left to cape for (or defend and promote) men in drag who proclaim that they women. Women who know nothing about what it means to be lesbian or bisexual, and even less about how feminine socialization harms women and girls from disadvantaged backgrounds.

It’s almost always class-privileged women who act as mouth-pieces for the trans and prostitution lobbies. Women who gain something financially if they can throw the rest of womankind under the bus. One example of an uppity handmaiden caping for male supremacist autogynephiles is surprisingly Anita Sarkeesian, who gained notoriety for talking about sexism in video games (Tropes vs. Women). YouTube radfem Mancheeze addresses her with this response video:

I think we have to be honest about this topic because clarity is all we have with which to dispel myths and obfuscations. Transwomen and women are equal in that they are both human and should be treated with the basic decency due all people. However, a transwoman is a man who decides to ape being a woman and as such will always make of himself a cringe-worthy sideshow exhibition. Men dressing as women are about as convincing as these guys: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/33fcf8afb8658776c9bf601cc9088e9fba0cc29fd7aabb759dc2a293ecd74aac.jpg
and equally as reprehensible.

Tired feminist

I think we shouldn’t give in to the “equality” talk. This gives credibility to their discourse. They’re manipulating people into believing this is an equality issue, and succeeding at it.

I mean, what you’re saying is fully correct, but I don’t think we have ever been dishonest about this, or said otherwise. Trans activists are abusive males and we should refuse completely to play their little game.

The reason why trans-identified males have been banned from a female spa has nothing to do with inequality. It’s not even because they ape femininity. It’s because they’re male. It’s that simple and I think we should keep it like that.

Lavender

The point needs to be made because there’s a resistance to admitting any difference whatsoever between men who identify as women and actual women. The charge is often that by not accepting these individuals as “real” women or just women, then women think they’re superior. There’s no way of making the point that different doesn’t mean unequal without using the word ‘equal’. It’s literally one sentence near the end of the article, not the premise of the argument or article as a whole.

Ethan Jobson

Using the unique struggles faced by African-Americans and comparing the historical marginalization from minstrel shows to trans people passing in order to live their lives is racist.

Tired feminist

Now this is some grade A manipulation here. I’m in awe.

Trans people are the ones who compare themselves to African Americans in order to pretend being an oppressed class.

FierceMild is comparing trans-identified males to white people who engaged in blackface. Not to people of color, dipshit.

lk

What is the different between a man claiming to feel like a woman and a white person claiming to feel black?

cday881@gmail.com

The fact that this postmodern ideology is at odds with pretty much every major authority on human biology doesn’t seem to matter.

The AMA is a male system. They very loudly lobbied against abortion rights in the 60s.

From your link:
“Laws and policies that restrict the use of public facilities based on biological gender can have immediate and lingering physical consequences, as well as severe mental health repercussions,” Dr. Ehrenfeld added. To protect the public health and to promote social equality and safe access to public facilities and services, the American Medical Association is opposed to policies that prevent transgender individuals from accessing basic human services and public facilities in line with their gender identity.”

So, to paraphrase, males mental health, safety, concerns, and feelings matter and will be attended to, while women can fuck off. We get it, AMA.

Alienigena

Medical professionals constantly undertreat and dismiss women’s pain. And that pain could be related to stroke or heart attack (or internal injuries, appendicitis) so ignoring women’s pain could have serious and possibly fatal consequences.

“Researcher Karen Calderone found that when men and women have the same symptoms, women are more likely to be given sedatives as treatment, instead of pain-relieving drugs. This suggests they are perceived as being more ‘anxious’ than truly in pain and doctors focus on prioritising returning women to a ‘calm and rational’ state above relieving their actual pain.”

“… research elsewhere has found that male patients are consistently given more time and attention from medical professionals (i.e. nurses) than female patients with the exact same symptoms.”

Where do they disagree? She’s saying that transwomen have not always been women, not that they don’t identify as such. The article you linked to makes it clear that the AMA acknowledges the existence of genotypic and phenotypic sex as something different from gender identity.

Further down they also say:In another action, delegates called upon the AMA to work with the Food
and Drug Administration to establish a gender-neutral patient
categorization in risk evaluation and mitigation strategies (REMS). The
idea is to take the focus away from gender identity and place it on
reproductive potential. That is because there are patients who identify
as male who may be taking medication that puts them at risk for damage
to their biologically female reproductive systems.

In other words, biology does matter.

Tired feminist

It doesn’t work. Transladees with surgical wounds do claim to have “vaginas”. There’s no end to their manipulation tricks.

“Female” is not a gender identifier, so I don’t see the problem with “female-only”.

corvid

What gets me is their confidence that these small targets, women’s spaces, can and will easily be shut down by their efforts. Can you imagine women being so confident that we could “shut down” any aspect of patriarchy with targeted social media attacks? The idea is laughable.

acommentator

“What gets me is their confidence that these small targets, women’s
spaces, can and will easily be shut down by their efforts. Can you
imagine women being so confident that we could “shut down” any aspect of
patriarchy with targeted social media attacks? The idea is laughable”

In the cocoons in which SJW people live in, they have quite a bit of success by making a lot of noise and trying to shut down opposing views. The no platform incidents on numerous campuses are an example. It is not just feminists who get no platformed. The SJWs try to shut down anyone who represents things that are anathema to them. The tantrum is the only way they know how to engage with people who disagree, because they think that the expression of opposing viewpoints is in and of itself violence.

Tired feminist

This is not an answer to her question. She asked (rhetorically) whether women could shut down any aspect of PATRIARCHY with targeted social media attacks. Pay attention.

corvid

Yeah. Like “let’s social-media bomb that strip club/brothel/majority-male corporation or government until it CLOSES DOWN”… come on now.

Mandy

Even if you want to look smaller than big corporations like Coca Cola, I don’t remember ever seeing/reading any male only spaces/groups/businesses being protested or harassed by FtT/trans men trying to get them to “be more inclusive” or trying to shut them down.

The misogyny and male entitlement at work here is really obvious. Males are shutting down female only spaces, pushing us out of groups, and shutting down women led spaces and businesses.

Mandy

I also see a looooot of young, mostly American, liberals claim that the sex separated spaces we’ve had (that feminists fought for, and women worldwide still fight to get) are now somehow the same as Jim Crow laws that kept black people out of whites only areas.

melissa

Hahahah… MRAs always make similar comparison. This kind of rhetoric was all over the place from MRAs regarding the recent ‘Wonder Woman’ women only screening. How fucking entitled, clueless and privileged do you have to be to make these comparisons?

Mandy

<3

Ethan Jobson

Lol, same argument used by brocialists about feminism.

Tired feminist

Said the libbro.

Ethan Jobson

How do you claim to be anti-capitalist, yet think people can just “build shit” out of nowhere in a capitalist society and deify owners who exploit their workers for profit. Sounds pretty liberal to me.

Tired feminist

Still not our problem.

Ethan Jobson

Fine then. But don’t cloak your ideology in a holier than thou veneer of anticapitalism. I’ve seen almost no class analysis on this website.

Meghan Murphy

Learn to read, then.

FierceMild

Ms. Murphy, that is, like, PURE MISANDRY! Why should men have to read what women wrote in order to criticize it!?

Meghan Murphy

Asking men to read with their eyes is anti-man. We all know men can’t process information visually as well as women can.

Men have money. Lots and lots of money. Capitalism even works in their favor! They could easily build there super-duper swingin’ lady dick spa.

But history has shown us that it’s just easier for men to take what women have made and claim it as their own.

Ethan Jobson

People can talk about multiple issues. You don’t think trans comrades don’t speak out about these issues?

DeColonise

This is not an issue to begin with and no it don’t seem like most SJWs care at all about serious events in the world.

Tired feminist

Sure they do. When they find something to accuse Coca Cola of “transphobia” about.

Lady Dark Helmet

Coca Cola bottles are transphobic because they don’ t come in different shapes and colours according to preferred gender identities. Transwomen have the right to choose the bottles that validate their identities, not stupid unisex and triggering bottles that cis men and plain old women can use as well.

There, I said it.

I wish I was kidding, but we all know something like this is coming. Maybe not with Coca Cola but it will happen. They have zero capacity to tell whether something is important or bullshit. Everything is a genocide for these people.

FierceMild

Never mind that Coca Cola is made with sweetener produced by child slave labor in Venezuela.

Lady Dark Helmet

Pfffft, who cares? By the way, what do those children identify as? That’ s the important question here!

FierceMild

I’m so glad you asked!! At least SOMEONE is thinking of How those children identify on a gender spectrum!

Zuzanna Smith

Why is it that they concentrate all their energy on shutting women down?

Cassandra

“Trans comrades?” These hateful males are not any female’s “comrade.” Go peddle your bullshit on Jezebel.

Lady Dark Helmet

Their entire energy seems to be focused on how to steal women’ s spaces, so even assuming they do indeed speak about these issues, they are too busy playing the victim card and silencing us to do anything material about those issues.

And LOL at “trans comrades”: are you for fucking real?

Ethan Jobson

What makes you so sure that your conclusion about transgender people being true? Recent studies on the subject have shown that gender dysphoria is a real thing relating to hormones in the brain.

Yisheng Qingwa

LOL, nope.

You are wrong.

r/gendercritical

Tired feminist

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Which hormones? How? What is “gender identity”? What is “gender dysphoria”?

Now you’ll have to do the full ladybrain talk. Come on. No halfway through. No shortcuts.

Grab your popcorn, ladies!

Raelee

I’m not looking for a back and forth here, just want to correct you in case this is seen by anyone else.
FORGET ABOUT THE BRAIN STUDIES YOU’VE SEEN. There’s multiple issues with any “proof” you’ve seen from biased sources.
Use common sense – if you see claims that there’s brain differences, don’t forget to account for controls, source, and real scientific facts like the brain being plastic.
I’d go into more detail, but honestly you can find the information here. The topic has been hashed over again and again, with comments going into even more detail.

Lavender

Any comment about the part of the article that points out that trans activists are increasingly saying you can pick your identity at will and it doesn’t have to be based on dysphoria? Read the article, Ethan.

Hekate Jayne

The internet has plenty of websites dedicated to dudes in dresses that have been convicted of violent crimes against us. And when confronted with facts of the violent criminality of males playing dress up as ladees, they start screaming “but those males aren’t really trans, tho!!”

Males ability to logic isn’t all that great on a good day. Combine that with their mass hysteria over women not centering every single thing in the world onto them along with their irrational inability to control their own behavior and it’s easy to see that their stupidity feeds into their violence against us.

At this point, we can really mostly act individually. I avoid them as much as possible. I actively ignore them, also. In fact, when I went out earlier today, one told me how pretty I am. I acted like I didn’t hear it. I was buying soup, for fuck sake, I didn’t need his commentary.

He stared at me, and finally asked me if I heard him. I said “yep” without looking at him. He was aghast! That I didn’t smile and preen and gush. And I had to listen to him mumble under his breath about how rude women are while I waited to pay for my stuff.

I’m done smiling and submitting to their bullshit. And I am always aware of other women in my vacinity, and if I see any of them being harrassed, I will help them as best I can. But I am not going to be chased out of being in public by a literal bunch of dicks. And I am going to support other women in public, too.

Tired feminist

Yeah, I know. But more people seem to understand that they’re not female than that their surgical wound is not a vagina. Go figure…

Kati

Arguing with one of the ones that thinks he is female is a uniquely frustrating experience!

Rich Garcia

@hearthmoon:disqus The social justicetards are only good for being mouthpieces and riding on bandwagons. They’ve dragged the Feminist Movement into the dirt with their male-identified politics, infiltrated the LGB movement and turned that into a farce by stretching the boundaries of what it means to be homosexual with their “queer politics”, and have made racial justice irrelevant by claiming to be offended on behalf of minorities when situations don’t merit it, to the point where instances of real racism aren’t taken seriously anymore.

Wren

JFC these screen shots made me slightly nauseous. The determination of insane people who now think they have a little bullying power makes me shudder.

Plus, “many women have big beautiful penises”!!?!?!?! Who the fuck believes this shit??

But yeah, I agree with your comment regarding people who have some bullying power.
Here are some more gems from the delightful people wanting into a female only spa:

lk

I’m dying from laughter from some of these comments.

Women’s penises?!

ROFL…just no…women don’t have penises, just like men can’t get pregnant. How in the year of 2017 is this even a topic of conversation?!

This Shelly Marshall who says he (she?) has spoken to 3 media outlets…why is the media only talking to trans-identified/pro-trans about this issue? None of the Canadian articles on this topic have featured the views of a woman who wants to keep the spa female-only.

Lady Dark Helmet

“Women’s penises?!”

You mean you’ ve never seen them calling their dicks “clitty”?

I envy you.

lk

Oh, my….I’ve never heard clitty before…

I’ve heard lady dick, girl dick, female penis…

I’ll give transactivists credit for their ability to invent all kinds of nonsensical language.

corvid

Hah, they wish… the clitoris has 8,000 nerve endings, the penis has half that number. Mother Nature eh, what a TERF-y misandrist!

Kati

“The determination of insane people who now think they have a little bullying power makes me shudder.” That’s exactly what the problem is. Good description.

Wren

“…you need to stay quiet while grown folks are talking.”
LMAO

Wren

I think that people are *trying to be nice* to these mentally ill (although I don’t necessarily think they are ill, nor are they victims of anything other than their own narcissism, as this is insulting to people with actual mental health issues, but that’s another discussion) for the same reason we women are always nice to men: they react with hysterical threats of violence and torrents of verbal abuse or DARVO crap if we don’t placate them. Really, it’s the exact same dynamic we’ve put up with all of lives.

Wren

XX only.

Cassandra

I won’t say where but I was in a place recently (not a public one) that had XY on the men’s bathroom door and XX on the women’s. It made me smile.

Hekate Jayne

You are very kind, Wren, thank you.

FierceMild

Wren is a total rockstar. And so are you.

Zuzanna Smith

The oppressors will always continue to oppress even though they’ll keep telling you’re crazy and the patriarchy doesn’t exist.

When even the sight of unshaven armpits on a woman or a woman breastfeeding unabashed in public makes them so unreasonably angry then you know that the hatred is real, and I don’t get why all women don’t see this.

lk

You are amazing 🙂

The fact that this person read your post and accused you of racism is so hilarious.

“It’s not racist it is literally analogous you just aren’t comfortable with it.”

If you ask a trans supporter why a man can claim to feel like a woman and then put on his ladyface, but a white person can’t claim to feel black and put on his blackface..they will never give you a coherent answer.

lk

“Stating basic facts about human biology says nothing about the humanity or value of people who identify as trans and to claim that disagreeing with an individual’s self-perception is tantamount to hating them or driving them to suicide is manipulative and disingenuous.”

Yes, its frustrating that to merely acknowledge facts now means you are a bigoted person who contributes to violence against trans people.

Transideology seems to just be an extension of a bigger problem: that facts and objective reality don’t exist. That everything is a matter of feelings and opinions based on what you have seen as opposed to reading, studying understanding that there are objective facts and that there is a world far beyond your experiences.

I just completed reading On Tyranny and one of the sections that stuck with me was this:
“To abandon facts is to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power, because there is no basis upon which to do so. If nothing is true then all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights.”

The working class, women and racial minorities have absolutely nothing to gain by ignoring and denying facts. The more we reject facts, the more we really help to maintain power structures that thrive on inequality, racism, exploitation and sexism.

Rich Garcia

@disqus_0xSPfLez2z:disqus And who gets to determine that recognizing facts makes people bigoted? The classes that are in power, as always. Second Wave Feminists, GLAAD, the Civil Rights Movement. They were all determined to be troublesome and efforts were taken to subvert these groups from within. And they started from nothing.

But the Cult of Trans (these people aren’t “activists”) is something of an overnight sensation. A cultural phenomenon that originated in academia and the recesses of the Internet where people who are well-padded and have nothing else to do with their time fawn over how special they think they are because they think they’re transgressing sex roles, when in reality they reinforce them in some of the worst ways possible.

That they have infiltrated the political Left with their conservative views and representations of sex and gender is also puzzling. Then again true left-wing politics are no longer a thing in the West.

This part from the article really stuck out to me: “Radical feminists, or TERFs (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists) do not recognize trans women as women. Unlike with intersectional feminism, TERFs believe in gender binaries and are transphobic in practice. Seeing women within the queer community targeting the couple really illustrates the persistent marginalization of trans folk.”

I don’t even know what to say.

Cassandra

Yeah, we so believe in gender binaries. What a bunch of lying liar assholes.

Just Passing Through

I like women who look after other women… she is a hero.

Hekate Jayne

I’m not sure about being a hero. Most, if not all, of the women here are like this, I think.

I have been thinking about this today, because I am so appreciative of the kind words. I can’t remember the last time that I was complimented by women. It’s a good feeling.

And I actually do try to help women when I can. I live in a rural area and see quite a few women walking. And I always stop and offer them a lift. And usually a lift back after the store, or wherever.

Conversely, I blew by 3 dudes by a broken down car, and I waved and laughed.

But then sometimes I come off looking like an asshole. I spoke loudly and harshly to an old white guy who was actively giving shit to a black woman cashier last week. He was being a shit, I told him to shut it. Which he took just as well as you think that he did. The cashier and I had a laugh, he is a regular customer and he is always shitty.

And the people at the front of the store that collect money for a pro life pregnancy crisis center refuse to speak to me, anymore. That’s kind of a perk, though.

My behavior is really rude, lol. But it’s very well directed. And I am not sorry, and I am going to continue. It’s very freeing.

I just never expected anyone to appreciate it, I guess. You and wren made my day. So thank you. Just wanted you to know that.

Yisheng Qingwa

You’re fuckin’ awesome, I need you in my gang.

Wren

It might seem like no biggie to speak up for other women and to ignore men if you’ve been doing it for a while, but it can feel terrifying when you start (I do that in public, but at work I have to be nicey nice to the menz). But by doing it you show women it can be done and that is sooooo important because most women think they don’t have the right.

These are the most subversive actions we women can take: to ignore men and to put women first.

Hekate Jayne

We all have to be nice to some males a lot of the time. I had an instance a while back with a male in a parking lot. I was alone and my common sense took over my rage, and I just quickly and quietly made it to my car.

And we all have to work to take care of ourselves. No shame in doing anything to make a living.

The cashier couldn’t say anything in defense of herself. And that old white asshole knew it. But I give no fucks. It’s part of my charm.

I am getting older, and my anger at males is something that I won’t ignore anymore. And I have decided that I am going to share that with them! Because I can do these things.

lk

“And I actually do try to help women when I can. I live in a rural area and see quite a few women walking. And I always stop and offer them a lift. And usually a lift back after the store, or wherever.”

What you are doing is a BIG DEAL!! Speaking up for and helping other women when you can really matters.

Hekate Jayne

When this first came up, I thought that I would just use the fabled 3rd restroom. Because ladydudes are only interested in the women’s room.

But then if we all start doing that, then they will just start using the 3rd one, too. It’s not about safety. It’s about dominating us. And they can only do that if they are constantly in our faces.

And this is yet another thing that shows how manly they truly are. We don’t force ourselves onto others. We can’t, we aren’t allowed to do it, but even if we could, we wouldn’t.

Their behavior is abhorrent, even for males. But it’s just extra irritating because they claim to be women.

Just Passing Through

Just goes to show their level of hatred of women. And it is…hate.

corvid

Thanks for documenting all this JingFei. This is all a grotesque combination of narcissism, consumer entitlement and an utter lack of perspective.

Lavender

If the term ‘men’ is used, then there’s no way to differentiate these particular men who identify as women. “Men who identify as women are exposed to a great deal of violence through the sex trade…”, for example, is awkward and doesn’t compute. People from a variety of backgrounds come to this site and confusing them rather than helping them untangle gender identity ideology is counterproductive. The piece critiques the transgender movement – far from giving credence to it.

Tired feminist

How about “trans-identified males”?

Lavender

I don’t know if that resolves it. If you call them men or males, then liberals and the otherwise non-radfem educated aren’t necessarily going to be clear because they haven’t reached the conclusion that they’re men or males. The men in question don’t simply identify as trans, either. That’s not the issue. The issue is specifically men who identify as women. ‘Trans women’ is obviously a problem because I agree that’s a clear qualifier. The cat’s out of the bag, I’m afraid. You can’t counter rhetoric about people commonly referring to ‘transwomen’ or ‘trans women’ without also using the same signifier. Perhaps a reference to ‘transwomen’ at the beginning and then a note that they will henceforth be referred to as something else…

susannunes

Call them “transvestites” or “autogynephiles” which is what they ARE in truth or men in dresses. Sex is NOT–repeat NOT–an “identity.” It is a material fact. You also cannot “identify” as a sex role stereotype, i.e., gender. The author is giving total credence to the bogus transgender movement by adopting its language.

We need to stop doing it. Same is true with ANY qualifiers to distinguish women from men trying to impersonate women: “natal” women, “actual” women, “born” women, “women-born-women.” It HAS to stop. Words have meaning, have power. Adopting the language of the misogynists is not the answer when there are real terms that can be used and have been used to describe these men.

I suspect the author is young and has never heard of the term “transvestite.” That term is far better than the idiotic “trans women” because it describes these guys as the sexual fetishists they are. Virtually ALL of these men are these days and not the self-loathing gay men of the past who had the surgical butchery and were called “transsexuals” [sic]. “Trans women” is a falsehood because one cannot “transition” to the opposite sex or “change sex.”

Rich Garcia

@susannunes:disqus Couldn’t have said this better myself. There is no such thing as a “natal” woman or “women-born-women”, which sounds like something out of a dystopian science fiction novel. The only women who exist are women themselves, who come from a variety of different backgrounds.

And it perplexes me how women will go along with pretending that men can become women, and ignore pleas to the obvious that they are not. Maybe because it fascinates women groomed into femininity that men can become like “one of the girls”, sharing in their interests and activities.

Calling these men transvestites and acknowledging their maleness is what people used to do not too long ago, along with using sex instead of gender to refer to males and females. There was also never this pressure from gay males who lived as transsexuals to “identify” their way into women’s spaces either.

Kendall Turtle

This idea that we have to take care of any person that has a mental illness regardless of if it hurts us or not is ridiculous… I have OCD -_- really don’t think you all want to constantly accommodate all my fears and obsessions and I really don’t expect people to.

Julie Katz

There’s no way that if the regular sane public saw trans talking about how they’re women with “big beautiful penises” there wouldn’t be enough outrage to provoke a backlash. You should send your screenshots to Fox News, they might be delighted to run with this trans and Canadian madness, a two for one!

Cassandra

“He literally has a front butt.”

LOL!

Hekate Jayne

It’s literally a 2nd asshole. Double asshole.

One asshole just isn’t enough.

Kati

The only reason they would be “accepted” if they pass is because they can sneak in dishonestly.

Lavender

I agree that it’s all part of rape culture but men who expose themselves aren’t committing rape. I’m pretty sure that women who’ve been penetrated against their will and have had to deal with the ensuing risks and impacts don’t appreciate the comparison. It’s a bit much.

Lavender

Exactly! The brain is essentially the body’s computer. How can a brain that controls a male body be female? Sex permeates the body. It’s not possible to have a brain develop separately from the rest of the body. None of it makes sense. It’s crazy.

Amy

Mt”f” want to be considered women when it benefits them and men when that benefits them. On the Rupaul show, there’s a Mt”f” but in this case, he wants to be a him because drag queens are men dressed as women. So when he can win money, SCREW being female! But when he wants to be in women only spaces, then he’s wants to be considered a female…. you can’t have it both ways. I would bet all the money I have that this guy still has his member, and would feel entitled to pull it out in a woman’s space and harass us, many of whom have been sexually assaulted by that organ. It’s a sad state of affairs when manipulative people who get to do whatever the hell they want get more rights than a woman just trying to live her life.

Hekate Jayne

That doctor was obviously transphobic! For being able to tell the difference! Bigot bigot GAAH!

I swear it’s like they have included gynecology care into their fucking fetish. Yet another way they scream I BE A DUDE. No woman in the history of ever actually loves going to the fucking gyno.

They don’t need a gynecologist. They need a wound specialist.

wetcoastace

If one accepts that “gender identity” exists and is not double binary (on-off AND male-female) then the most logical position to posit on gender identity is that it is a double spectrum… the “intensity” spectrum, from perpetually ON, constantly seeking overt, frequently sexual, gender expression to seldom if ever displaying overt, frequently sexual, gender expression on the one axis, on the other a culturally defined spectrum of overt gender identification ranging from ultra “all male all the time” to its gender opposite ultra “all female all the time”. I fear that I have not necessarily put this all that well but my point is that when some factor exists on some form of a continuum then spectra are no more than logical expectation.

Be precise, I didn’t ask you to repeat what you have read on buzzfeed.

wetcoastace

Sorry but your choice of illustrations destroys the analogy. The white men in the photos are IMITATING, not impersonating, stereotypes of negroes for the purposes of entertaining an audience. You can argue the “rightness” or the morality of that form of entertainment but it remains entertainment. On the other side of the attempted analogy you have physiological males who, for reasons or through processes I cannot begin to understand, come to BELIEVE that they are in fact females. I’m not sure that your analogy would have held if you had used Rachel Dolezal instead of the “minstrels” but, you didn’t. lk below also mischaracterizes your example, defining trans males as men “claiming” to FEEL like women which is not equivalent to men claiming to BE women. Note too that I don’t have a dog in this fight – I haven’t learned enough about the whole trans question (which, like homosexuality, seems to be bi-modal, lots of sturm und drang about gay males, less about lesbians, lots of yelling and screaming about M2F trans cases, much less on F2M cases) to carve deep hard lines in the sand and declare everything on the other side of the line “wrong”.

lk

“lk below also mischaracterizes your example, defining trans males as men “claiming” to FEEL like women which is not equivalent to men claiming to BE women.”

I didnt mischaracterize anything.

Transmen claim that they are women because they have always felt like women on the inside. They claim to feel that they are in the wrong body and should really have been born in the male body.

Woman is not a feeling. One is a woman because of material, biological facts like XX chromosomes, uterus, vagina.

Tired feminist

Rachel Dolezal is also blackfacing. How much they believe their own lies is secondary to the fact that they’re lying.

radwonka

“physiological males”

lol, you repeat what you read on buzzfeed, but you seem to have missed the part where trans ideology explains that there is no such a thing as male and female and that genitals are also a “spectrum” (very few scientists agree with that theory anyways).

Don’t bother people if you don’t know what trans ideology is.

Wren

How do you know those actors didn’t *feel* black?? Can you read their minds??

FierceMild

He is so transracist, like, puke!

acommentator

“I swear I should approach Conservative sites. These days, they are
actually giving a voice to lesbians who are challenging this idiocy.”

There are things that feminists and conservatives agree on. One of them is that sex is real, and that men are men and women are women.

One would think, of course, that something so basic as that would be agreed upon by everyone, but we live in strange times.

Wren

“From my experience, people who claim to be pro relativism (or pro “freedom of speech”) are always judgemental and controlling.”
Totally!! We are living the age of irony.

Lady Dark Helmet

Right? I am totally convinced now that transwomen are women thanks to those unrefutable studies! #progress #deTERFification

Kendall Turtle

“Labeled intolerant and fascist for daring to voice an alternate opinion” yeaaaah that should happen when many of these “opinions” are men saying women need to get back to the kitchen or be doled out like resources to men…

Tired feminist

I also very much doubt he has ever been called a TERF.

Just Passing Through

😀

lk

I do think that part of is that women are afraid to speak up.

I think part of is that women don’t see the point of trying to engage in rational conversation with people who are irrational (and on some level, you must be irrational to deny the existence of two sexes in the human race).

I also think that for many women the statement that the human race is dimorphic is an irrefutable fact and they don’t even see the point of talking about this.

My mom is a nurse and anytime I chat with her about trans stuff, the conversation is always short b/c she finds the whole thing silly and always just ends up saying that a man can’t become a woman and a woman can’t become a man.

lk

It’s a sad day when the only people willing to listen to lesbians and women is Conservatives…what happened to the Democrats and the left-wing ideology?!

lk

Yeah, I mean there is really no money to be made in just accepting your body as it is.

Transpeople are essentially a way for plastic surgeons, doctors and drug companies to make money-top/bottom surgery, facial surgery, breast implants and etc.. Not to mention hormones which have to be taken for the rest of your life and cost about $1500 per year.

Plus, there seems to be this push to have kids start transitioning as early as possible which means even more money!

TeenVogue had an article about how much it costs to be transgender in America and it did a feature on an mtf who started his transition at the age of 16…the article was published when he was 25…the total he had spent on transitioning was 80,000! That cost will only increase every year he takes hormones.

Hekate Jayne

Could you just not use the word?

We all hear “uppity” about women, all. Of. The. Time.

Can you just once, say ok and move the fuck on?

Uppity ranks up there with bitch, as far as I am concerned. It’s a word that males never use in reference to other males. It’s only ever directed at women.

So you choose a word to direct at women that you don’t agree with, a word reserved by males for women only. And a woman says something to you about it. And you get pissy.

No one is asking you to swallow your words. Instead of choosing another term, you just double down.

It’s your world. Here shouldn’t be any different.

Tired feminist

By the way, if they truly wanted to pass as women they’d stop saying things like “vag”. The only thing they’re passing as is as the misogynists they are.

They love to use the word “shaming”, yet don’t realize that they are shaming and mocking women’s boundaries (I guess that only men have the right to have boundaries) and bodies (calling us “vag”).

They say that science is objectifying yet think that our only problem with with men is about their body and not their behavior, thus denying that MVAW exists. It’s a (stupid) straw man basically.

SJW behaving like MRAs, episode 757493…

corvid

Exactly. Their use of language is so typical of men, they don’t even realize how much on the same page they are with both libbros and conservative men on the point that women’s boundaries are irrational and shouldn’t exist.

FierceMild

Yes actually. Sometimes you’ll have to swallow your words if they include examples like ‘uppity’. You could use any number of words that negatively describe her behavior and don’t imply that the problem is that the woman in question isn’t keeping to her proper place ‘below’ others (i.e. men).

Meghan Murphy

Ha. That sentence made me cringe too. So badly written, so badly argued.

Autismus Ad Infinitum

>As a woman, I am becoming increasingly insulted by the “fuckhole” that males create to mimic a vagina.

tl;dr:

“Look at this great big hole I made in my taint”

“Fuck you my vagina is sacred and godlike how dare you rape me from afar”

tl;dr of the tl;dr: why are you letting crazy people upset you so much?

I’ve never found myself all that bothered by their body modification. If somebody wants to, you know, give themselves an artificial vagina, or whatever, they’re welcome to do it. As long as they don’t try to replace mine with a fake or something. As long as everyone’s happy, y’know?

>And his was created from his colon.

Doesn’t the colon, like, secrete stuff? That sounds fucking disgusting. Just, fuck that. There are limits to how far happiness should be allowed to go.

>But I agree, the majority of them want to keep their dick. They can’t properly terrorize us without it, after all.

Personally I try not to ascribe such negative motives to everybody. They’re just trying to be who they think they are. They’re sick, obviously, but they really think they’re women inside. So I can’t really hate them for it. I just pity them.

Not unless they’re especially ugly or obnoxious or used their colon for a vagina. That’s just horrible. Fuck that fuck it fuck it fuck it fuck fuck fuck no no no.

Tired feminist

You’re really not able to figure out the reason why females are “upset” about men in female spaces where women are naked? My 2-year-old niece is smarter than you.

lk

“Why are you letting crazy people upset you so much?”

We are upset because these “crazy people” are biological men who are demanding access into women only spaces–like female prisons, shelters and locker-rooms

We are upset because we are being asked to deny the existence of female biology.

We are upset at healthy children being mutilated and having their bodies pumped full of unncessary hormones because of “gender identity feelings.”

We are upset that tax dollars are being used to pay for the sex reassignment surgery of trans prisoners.

We are upset that lesbians are being pressured to date men in order to be inclusive.

If all transpeople wanted to do was just to be themselves, we wouldn’t care…this is much more than people just wanting to be themselves.

radwonka

”
“Fuck you my vagina is sacred and godlike how dare you rape me from afar””

BTW, no one cares what you think. You must be really narcissistic to think that what *you* think alone (since your main argument is “It doesn’t bother me :'(” ) is pertinent or that it is a good counter argument rofl

Narcissistic people are always like this: they claim to support everything but love to degrade and mock others.

Come back when you’ll be more consistent bro.

Lady Dark Helmet

Oh, we have some lunatics like that too in my country. Thankfully there are not many. But I like the idea. I doubt we would have to work hard at that, literally everything is transphobic and triggering nowadays! And if we can’ t find anything, they will (and for real, not as a joke).

Tired feminist

ikr? To realize that crickets are smarter than liberals on this subject. (No offense to crickets intended.)

Tired feminist

Sounds like some lazy intern just copy-pasted a few sentences from Everyday Feminism and mashed them up.

FierceMild

Yipes! I am absolutely appalled to learn how out of date on my Jenner news I am!

Heehee. Christian penis burial.

Tired feminist

Hm, no. You’re mistaking social media for activism.

FierceMild

Wait, that song thing isn’t real?! It’s totally real.

Hekate Jayne

I feel like we are shifting.

Males always, always stick together. They don’t have to know or even like each other to defend each other. Rape is a good example of this. They will group up and defend a rapist in a million different ways. Because they have solidarity as a group, and their dominance is kept in place by their group dynamic of putting each other first, either overtly or subtly.

We are developing something similar. I want to encourage that. Because that is how we will get our freedom.

Hekate Jayne

Maybe anthropology hasn’t found any evidence of matriarchal society.

But anthropology was a thing that only white males did. So everything was interpreted and recorded by only white males for a very long time.

History is rewritten by white males to make themselves the hero. My point is that they lie.

Have you ever read “when God was a woman”?

Melanie

I think the more overreaching demands they make the more there will be a backlash against these laws. At least I hope so. I think transgender people are their own worst enemies. Their inability to accept reality and to acknowledge and respect our differences is going to hurt them in the long run.

JingFei

It’s only natural when one puts so much importance on “identity”, with that identity somehow dependent on society at large being forced to comply with personal ideas we don’t necessarily agree, vehemently disagree with or just don’t understand at all.
Their issues lie in this idea that no one may disagree with them. I do not believe “Transwomen are women”. I just don’t. Maybe one day I will meet one my brain accepts that way, but it has yet to happen.
I do not for one second believe a Transwoman knows what it’s like to be female. The very idea is ridiculous to me. So respectfully, I believe Transwomen are Transwomen. I don’t really see what the big issue with that is though. It doesn’t mean they get any less respect from me. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t live safe, fulfilling lives ( like the rest of us). But for whatever reason, they insist they are the exact same as *females* regardless of reality and I just can’t get on board with that.

I think they would be met with less backlash if they would just accept that most of us can’t bend to their will just because they wish it.

Hekate Jayne

I especially love how little fella is all “get to cleaning it up, ladiez!”

Lol. I’m surprised that he didn’t demand a sandmich.

FierceMild

Maybe he’s super polite and was waiting for us to offer?

Meghan Murphy

Do you think it’s compassionate to insist that males be allowed into women’s spaces despite the fact that it makes women feel uncomfortable or unsafe?

FierceMild

Oh look, a man shaming women for objecting to the oppressive behavior of men. New. Different. Moving. I’m so transformed.

Tired feminist

And expecting us to be “compassionate” to men in drag while showing no compassion to victims of sexual assault! Truly innovative.

Hekate Jayne

Males are not oppressed, marc. Who told you that?

Males cannot be oppressed by women. Not even if they are wearing dresses.

Also, why do you support males that want to be naked in women’s spaces? Why do you not care that women don’t want to be exposed to naked male bodies against their will?

Only a man would say “if you make me cover my dick, it’s oppression! And bigotry!”

You are an idiot. And a dangerous idiot, if you enjoy forcing women to be around naked males.

LOL, dude, it’s not “oppressive” when women tell you to fuck off. Grow a spine.

lk

I sometimes wonder how people can type and say these things seriously and really mean them.

Everytime I see something like “Transwomen get periods”..I honestly can’t help but laugh. I feel ridiculous even typing sentences like that!

I saw some transwoman activists refer to himself as an infertile woman.

What?! Nope…

Kati

Oh yes I just bet he would. Easy to pontificate, play devil’s advocate and spout your dull manly brainfarts when it isn’t your fundamental rights and safety under threat.

Kati

Yes, that’s the thing. Even decent men often forget this. It is ok for women to have a space which centres us and our perspective. Allies are great, but you need to pipe down occasionally and listen.

radwonka

” How can you expect to advance your own cause if you can’t show compassion to others?”

We are not evangelists bro. And vice versa, the trans movement shows no compassion towards us too, yet I don’t see you shocked. Typical biased man.

FierceMild

So if women show “compassion” for transwomen – where “compassion” is permitting men to come into the bathroom, locker room, women’s shelters, and prisons with us – then men will stop abusing and killing transwomen?

Her comments are disappearing one and 2 at a time. It seems that way, at least.

I hope she’s ok, too.

Meghan Murphy

This is odd… Hopefully everything is ok!

lk

Yeah, I noticed that too. I hope she’s all right!

Morag999

“How can you expect to advance your own cause if you can’t show compassion to others?”

Here, “compassion” means: be a good sport and take it lying down. And “others” refers to any Tom, Dick and Harry who feels like meanie women are thwarting his desires.

The overall implication being: how can you women expect liberation from male dominance and violence when you’re not even nice and accommodating to men who feel sad, bad and mad?

Zuzanna Smith

Males are not a marginalized oppressed people. Men have always had sex kinks and for the most part they have been tolerated, as long as it doesn’t interfere with the lives of other men. Auotgynephilia is an overwhelming sex fetish for many transladees, it is not a civil rights matter. Their insistence on having women participate in their fetishes in public and private spaces meant for females only underscores the fact that these people are MALE.

We need our own spaces away from men because boys and men will physically harm us if given half the chance, not because we’re mean and don’t want to invite boys who are icky. Occurrences like this are why trans claims to need admittance to our bathrooms because otherwise they’ll kill themselves are so nauseatingly egocentric.

lk

Perhaps this Indian girl should have let the boys know that she identified as a boy ,then they would have left her alone!

Since, its totally impossible to tell if someone is a girl or a boy without asking them because biology is a construct and identity is all that matters.

This is translogic.

What’s mind boggling is that pro-trans supporters would read this horrendous story of VAW and not even get that this is about boys wanting to violate a female body. They’d say this is just an example of violence, sex has nothing to do with it! They seem incapable of understanding the very real threat of violence that females face at the hands of males b/c they are female.

Marc

To those of you who responded politely, I did not comment on women only spaces. Nor did I ever suggest that men were oppressed by women. What I am suggesting is that not one single respondent in any of these threads is willing to even consider the possibility that some MtF really are women who, through no fault of their own, were born with a penis. Everyone of you is so sure that these people are just guys trying get their kicks out of seeing other women naked… Really? Are you sure about that? Not long ago being gay or lesbian was thought to be a disease too. But now, society is becoming a bit more enlightened. So why is this so hard to consider?

To the few who resorted to name calling, enjoy the rest of your tired angry lives!

Meghan Murphy

How are they women?

Hanakai

Dude, any man with a penis and XY chromosomes who thinks he is really a woman is delusional and seriously mentally ill. I am sure about that. I am also sure that one cannot change one’s sex, no how, no way, not possible. One sex is marked in every single cell of the body and no amount of makeup, wardrobe, hormonal loading, surgical mutilation will change a male into a female.

Mentally ill and delusional people need compassionate mental health psychological and psychiatric treatment. IT is far more compassionate to provide good mental health and medical treatment than it is to surgery mutilate and amputate healthy tissue in a human who is so sick that he hates himself and his body so much he would let surgeons mutilate it.

FierceMild

A woman is an adult human female, you egotistical child. These people are men by way of their biology, which is unchangeable. Climate change is real and so is sexed reproduction. Reflect in why it’s so important to you to override women’s boundaries and silence us.

lk

Please do not insult children by calling Marc one…even small children are intelligent enough to recognize boys and girls….

radwonka

”
Really? Are you sure about that? Not long ago being gay or lesbian was
thought to be a disease too. But now, society is becoming a bit more
enlightened. So why is this so hard to consider?”

Start reading our arguments instead of using straw man maybe? Also no one said that males were a “disease”, so false equivalence (again).

lk

There must be some rule book about responding to any criticism of anything trans-related…instead of engaging in rational conversation, resort to the following:
-avoid answering basic questions like what is a man? what is a woman?
-say something about previous legal discrimination against LGB
-compare trans “suffering” to black people/slavery/Jim Crow/genocide/Holocaust
-intersex!!
-something about transsuicide/murder rates
-something about some snail or something that has multiple sexes or can change its sex
-Transwomen are women.

And when they are done with all that:
Die, kill yourself, terf, cunt, cisscum and etc…….

“What I am suggesting is that not one single respondent in any of these threads is willing to even consider the possibility that some MtF really are women who, through no fault of their own, were born with a penis.”

God help us all. And I’m an atheist!

Listen, there’s no need to “suggest” that we will not consider patent absurdities, when it’s a fact that we will not.

But how about you? Are you willing to consider the possibility that what you’ve written here is so silly, so obviously and demonstrably false, that it indicates a tragic credulity and utter failure in critical thinking?

Melanie

We have considered it and we’re very sure that a male can’t be a female. This defies logic as well as scientific fact. Why don’t you consider why you’re so insistent on women abandoning our intelligence, boundaries and rights so that men can access our private spaces? Also please consider why you have so little compassion and empathy for girls and women and how this would impact our own lives and rights.

Hekate Jayne

You didn’t answer my questions.

Why do you want to force women to be in close proximity to exposed penises?

I can only assume that you enjoy the thought of women being forced to be in spaces where male bodies are naked.

Why is it the right of a male to be in our locker rooms, spas, bathrooms, etc.? Why don’t we have the right to the woman only facilities that feminists worked for us to have?

Why aren’t you preaching to violent males? About stopping their violence? Wouldn’t that fix the issue?

In my area, in the last 10 days, there’s been at least 2 instances of dudes wearing wigs and taking pictures of women urinating in public bathrooms. Those are just the instances that I have heard about this past week.

Congrats, marc! I know that you are proud to know that you are helping these pervy dudes! You do support this, after all. I’m not sure why you hate women so much, though. You’re kind of sad.

radwonka

Ditto!!

Cassandra

There is no such thing as brain sex, no male or female brain “structure.” That’s an archaic theory that has never, ever been proven.

Not all males are violent but all people who committ sexual violence against women are male. Until that isn’t true women have the human right to say NO and to have boundaries.

Also, sex and gender are not the same thing.

Danielle Matheson

I can’t stand the transcult! I’m not going to slide into their delusion and participate in the erasure of females. I’m so done with this garbage.

Danielle Matheson

Sexes brains are not a thing. It’s been debunked several times. The only difference between male and female brains is that on average men have larger brains, bc I’m average males are larger than females. Our “differences” are due to socialization. Gender is taught to us by the world around us.
If course biological sex is real.
No one says all men. It’s getting annoying as fuck that that argument is still a thing.
Real Trans women have done violent and horrible things.
So I’m conclusion, fuck off.

MH

What would it take for you all to accept a transgender woman as female and given access to women-only spaces? Is such a thing possible? Why or why not?

MotherBear84

Dear Julie,

It’s been a long time and so you may not see this comment, but I wanted to reply to you. Ok, first I must admit that I am sometimes terrified to post on this site (even though I love it, it has brought me back to feminism!) because I’m a Muslim woman and I wear hijab…it feels like I may get jumped on for that. However, your comment spoke to me.

I have experiences a lot of Islamophobia and much of it of the literal-violence kind, such as pulling off my scarf, following me and my kid while shouting Isis B*tch at me, and other threats to my space or my person. This has always been done by men. Women, even ones who i consider bigoted, have never been physically violent to me. I am never afraid of women.

I would LOVE a spa like the one you describe. I wish it was near me! Ignorant people sometimes ask if I would not be comfortable removing my hijab in front of lesbian women; they think it is all about avoiding potentially sexual situations. No, in fact I AM comfortable taking it off around lesbians (my massage therapist is a lesbian, actually…) because lesbians are not objectifying my body with that terrifying male gaze that simultaneously lusts after me and degrades me. I am not a “thing” to lesbians, whether or not a lesbian woman finds me attractive. I am a “thing” to many (all?) men, because of their socialization teaching them to see ALL women as essentially things.

It occurs to me that if I protest the loss of women-only spaces, I am likely to be branded a religious reactionary, a potential terrorist, and someone incompatible with American (or Canadian? I think you said this spa was in Canada?) values. I will be called unassimilated, a threat to the country, a bigot. The fact that I have always supported gay rights, women’s rights, etc (and that I do so from what I feel is an authentically faith-based perspective) would be ignored. I mean, honestly, I don’t even think I’d get called a TERF because people would be too busy calling me a terrorist! (BTW I am NOT saying that TERF is not an insult!)

Whew. So I should click Post. I am a little (a lot) nervous. I hope you read my comments in the spirit they are intended and know that I am not trying to insult anyone. I have been away from online feminism for a long tim (tbh the last time I was deeply involved in feminist thought it was mostly done through books!) and everything seems to have changed while I was away. I feel a bit slow, but I’m grateful for FC and the chance to learn.