105 comments:

Yeah, it is doubly stressful the opponent is lying through his teeth and in addition calls your husband a felon, a murderer, a tax cheat. There is no end to it but Althouse told us in another post that he is embarking on a positive note. So Ann's stress level should go down.

Reflexology - the erroneous idea the bottoms of our feet correspond to organs in the body - an idea with no validity in science whatsoever.

Homeopathy - the erroneous idea a diluted substance gets gets stronger after you hit it with a Bible and shake it - another idea with no validity in science whatsoever.

Acupuncture - the erroneous idea that, by sticking needles into pressure points medical science has never found after all of their years of opening and closing people successfully in surgery, you can affect health - another idea with no validity in science whatsoever.

Craniosacral therapy - the erroneous idea you can wave your hands over people to affect their "energy" - - another idea with no validity in science whatsoever. (Her son, Josh, "trained" in this nonsense, BTW - can you honestly claim to "train" in something that makes no sense?)

Yeah, Ann Romney's going to be great - for dissing everything we know to be true - and bringing more of Oprah's "magical thinking" in the White House.

Crack Emcee you don't seem to be in enough pain to quit living in and with this "world-wide billion dollar industry of nonsense." By reading blogs that feed that pain, could you just be enjoying the feeling? I guess any feeling is validation that you are still living.

My daughter has the same keep it to yourself and carry on attitude. But, she, like Ann knows when to quit. It's a mind body connection that is easy to scoff about until you experience it. Many practices that Crack disdains have helped many people get through tough times.

I won't be the judge of anyone's pain or what methods they use to manage it unless it does harm to other people. If you have really experienced pain, you find it much harder to belittle the pain of others.

Crack Emcee you don't seem to be in enough pain to quit living in and with this "world-wide billion dollar industry of nonsense." By reading blogs that feed that pain, could you just be enjoying the feeling? I guess any feeling is validation that you are still living.

Ah yes, my suicide would help eradicate NewAge cult beliefs - that can ONLY be found to work by re-writing everything we know about medicine and physics - so much more than fighting to eliminate what's killing others right under your nose, correct?

You, Madam, are a fucking genius.

wyo sis,

I won't be the judge of anyone's pain or what methods they use to manage it unless it does harm to other people.

Here's the website What's The Harm? which details some of the very-real harm people have come to - including the ugliest of unwarranted deaths - because of the promotion of this stuff.

Now - since I have given you verifiable evidence it's causing harm to others - what do you say?

BTW - I will also add that, because of the rah-rah coverage, cultists, like Ann Romney, bring to it, the victims usually suffer in isolation.

Be sure to add that - along with selling worthless supplements (for your health, of course) and the promotion of rip-off multi-level marketing schemes - to all the other qualities so many of you claim make Mormons so "nice."

It's a mind body connection that is easy to scoff about until you experience it.

I forgot to add that "Mind/Body/Spirit" was the Hitler Youth slogan - and there's not one of these unsubstantiated medical beliefs the Nazis didn't promote - so to suggest no one else understands the experience of it's full power is a *little* disingenuous.

They felt GREAT as they ran their line of "Aryan Superman" bullshit, too.

I guess, considering the range of NewAge "beliefs" - which includes breathing (Aromatherapy and "laughing yoga") - sitting on the sidelines cheering will be considered a "therapy" as soon as she enters the White House doors.

And hey - I just thought of this:

Won't all the people who have family members killed by this stuff, or have been ripped-off or injured themselves by it, feel WONDERFUL seeing one of it's main backers attain power over the entire country?

Oh man, that's going to be the greatest day for them - as well as medicine and science - the world has ever seen!

Having MS is a bitch. Up until a decade or so ago, there were no effective medications, and even now that there are drugs that slow progression, one must still learn to cope with debilitating symptoms. So you try things- you try yoga, you try different kinds of exercise, you experiment with your diet, you try acupuncture. You try crazy things you never thought you'd try because when the flare ups come- and you don't know when the flare ups are going to come- you know you aren't going to be able get through the day. Yah, the people that try these things might seem crazy, but if you wish to consider yourself a decent human being, and not a subhuman monster, you'll cut them some fucking slack...

CrackA similar list could be made showing very standard conventional non-cultish treatments that go wrong. There are no guarantees. But thanks for the link. It's informative.

Now you're going back on your word about judging - and you're attempting to change the argument. (I'd appreciate it if you don't treat me as though I'll miss that kind of cheap ploy,...)

Sure - standard medicine goes wrong - but standard medicine will also change based on that - none of Ann Romney's "cures" has changed from the day they were dreamed up, failures be damned.

Also, standard medicine is practiced by doctors with 10 years of training under a very reality-based framework that has not only been proven to work but doubled human lifespans in just the last century alone.

By comparison, any asshole can throw up a shingle and claim to be a "naturopath" - whatever that is. It requires no training, no certificates from anywhere respectable, and no successes. (As I mentioned, I can't even find a website for Ann Romney's reflexologist - you'd think, if he was so good, he's welcome the publicity, right?)

Not to mention, by doing so, you're just laying the groundwork for others to be harmed.

Just like Ann Romney.

Not that harming others ever bothered a Mormon.

I mean, except for saying blacks can now join their goofy cult, have they ever done anything about all the black people they harmed with that policy? There are very few black businesses in Utah - would that be considered a harm? Most blacks don't live anywhere near Mormon strongholds - where most of the money is made - could that be a harm?

I swear, you guys just don't think about anything but what's put right in front of your noses.

Yah, the people that try these things might seem crazy, but if you wish to consider yourself a decent human being, and not a subhuman monster, you'll cut them some fucking slack...

Oh bullshit - if you care about your health, you do research. And if you do research, you find out if something actually works or not - or if it harms people. And if it doesn't work, or it's found to harm people - you don't do it.

You don't go around giving it props merely because you "believe" in it - especially if you're a public figure with a responsibility to the people you claim to love and now want power over.

The "subhuman monsters" are those who continue to feed the sheep to the charlatans.

Oh bullshit - if you care about your health, you do research. And if you do research, you find out if something actually works or not - or if it harms people. And if it doesn't work, or it's found to harm people - you don't do it.

'Research'...yah. Great, asshole- fuck you! When you have MS, you're sick NOW, and you can't wait for 'research' to catch up with the progression of your disease. You don't necessarily 'believe in it'- you might even think what you're doing is batshit crazy. But science hasn't caught up with the progression of your disease, so you try things...

Ease up on Crack. His arguments are always eminently logical, if a bit harsh. If you debate with him, bring a stronger retort than, "I hope you get sick".

His totally rationalist POV mirrors my dads to a tee.

As far as placebo/snakeoil medicine, you should cite the studies that prove prayer works when someone is ailing. Whether it works because of a God, or it unleashes unplumbed depths of the mind/body connection is debatable. Regardless, I don't scoff at what other people find efficacious...even if that something is irrational or rationality. :-)

Hey, dick-for-brains, I was dealing with death before I got out of elementary school. And I've lived with a medical condition since I was 19 years old.

Neither was a reason for me to give money to quacks or recommend them to others.

Did it ever occur to you that getting advice from quacks is why some people stay sick?

BTW - I love how you guys get angry after I provide you with (linked) evidence and argue for logic and reason.

Sorry. The more I read about Ann Romney the less I like her. She ain't the first person to get sick, and the fact she promotes quackery - insuring harm will come to others - makes me dislike her even more.

wyo sis goes back on her word and then tries to change the subject. The rest of you want to stick to defending cultism and wild-eyed emotionalism.

What are you guys truly arguing for?

Alice In Fucking Wonderland as a medical cure.

Every con man, the world over, thanks you.

You are ensuring the phrase, "there's a sucker born every minute" will never die,...

Quite true - but let's talk about some of the other beliefs Mitt and Adolf could agree on:

Both have a belief system that's tied to the land - but has no basis in history, archeology, or geography.

Both have a belief system that has abused Jews, been race-based, and holds an obsession with "purity" in many forms, including racial. (Brigham Young's edict said, if a Mormon got with anyone of another race, they should have their head cut off - very Islamist, that one.)

Both share a "celestial" belief system.

Both share a belief in quackery, including the "Aryan Superman" theory where you promote "wellness" (AKA health beyond mere health) pushing supplements we don't need to the "worried well."

Both have a fondness for pseudoscience.

Both share a belief that has declared ruling the world to be their highest goal.

Both aspire to ruling their individual countries - and dictating the rules by which they attain that position.

Shall I go on?

It's amazing to me you guys can root for this man without understanding these things,...

Multiple Sclerosis has no cure. There are drugs that do produce improvement but they are all parenteral (by injection) and therefore difficult to use. A new oral drug (fingolimod) shows promise but isn't yet through trials and the FDA is notorious for being slow. Lots of people with diseases like this use alternative therapies which do not good except placebo effect.

I used to warn patients that, if they chose to use some of these treatments, not to pauperize themselves. That is not a problem for her.

Rheumatoid arthritis used to be in this category and my partner used to give his wife colloidal gold injections. They made her feel better. Then a new drug came out that is very effective and I doubt anybody would use colloidal gold anymore. In the next few years, effective treatment for MS may appear and the "alternative" therapies will vanish.

In the meantime, if she gets benefit from placebo effect, she can afford it.

If you studied Mormon history - I did provide a link establishing their admiration for Naziism - you would find they're not above it. They had no problem with being discriminatory to other races, have participated in the massacre of others, and have shown a casual ability to lie to outsiders about anything they're up to - just like who?

I can find all this stuff - websites, videos, evidence - but none of the sites we rely on for information is delivering it.

Why?

Because they don't care how ignorant you are. They're partisan, craven, and dedicated to spoon-feeding you bullshit, in hopes that - like Ann Romney and quackery - you'll spread their misinformation as far and wide as possible.

The fact that you guys will attack anyone who does provide you with information - shooting the messenger - is merely a sign of how base, and effective, their operations are.

Like the quacks, they don't care if others (innocents) get hurt. Like the quacks, they don't care if you're being used as the proverbial "useful idiots." Like the quacks, they only care about one thing:

Winning through lies - including lies of omission.

If you guys want to get mad at anyone, don't make it the lone individual speaking the truth, make it those determined to use you.

Crack, your comparison between mormonism breaks down when you take into account that the nazis murdered 6 million jews. And that's really the primary reason that they are villains today, not because Hitler was a vegetarian, and vegetarianism is not healthy or new age.You're really starting to get desparate with your characterizations. (starting is an understatement). And this is what you call the vetting process?Bullshit.

You guys don't salute people for doing the right thing - or even attempting to do the right thing.

Are you, by comparing Mormons to hilter, "Doing the right thing". or are you simply engaging in character assassination becuase of yoru bias?You make excuses for those doing the wrong thing.I make no excuses for you. You're in the wrong here.

That kind of behavior will never translate into our country improving in the long run,... I agree. And yet you persist....

as for Ms. Romney and her "belief" in reflexology. Lets talk about it. When you say it's bogus, what do you mean? DO you mean it's bogus as a cure of all disease, or do you mean it's bogus as something that can releive pain. The former may be bogus, but it doesn't mean the latter is bogus.

Do you think, in going to reflexologist that Ann thinks he'll cure her of her MS, or do you think she goes because the reflexology is helpful with her symptoms?

you're still using tunnel vision, and ignoring everyone else being suckered, ripped-off, harmed, or killed by this.[quackery medicine or cultish beliefs]

You can outlaw (or try to outlaw) things that are proven to kill. Medicines that are actually poison, smothering children to death, many things that are know to be deadly and harmful.

But....what you can't do is stop stupid. Stupid people who will believe anything or who want to believe things that are impossible but not necessarily deadly. Most religious beliefs are impossible to prove. That doesn't make all religions cults.

Just like the proverbial redneck drunk whose last words are "Hey...watch this." There are always going to be those people who will do themselves harm and others who will willingly harm themselves and possibly harm others. That last...harming others is the real problem, but if people want to act stupidly who are we to stop them.

Sounds cold and hard, but perhaps we are better off as a people if we just let some die by the stupid.

Crack, I like you--I enjoy you. But you gotta get off this kick of saying, "Yes, but, what's the survival rate among the dead?"

I don't know what that means, but I'll try,...

Dust Bunny Queen,

You can outlaw (or try to outlaw) things that are proven to kill. Medicines that are actually poison, smothering children to death, many things that are know to be deadly and harmful.

But....what you can't do is stop stupid. Stupid people who will believe anything or who want to believe things that are impossible but not necessarily deadly. Most religious beliefs are impossible to prove. That doesn't make all religions cults.

I never said they are (and you've been around long enough to know that).

One thing we CAN do is stop elevating people who believe stupid shit to power. For instance, it's one thing for George W. to say Jesus was his favorite philosopher. We all know what's written in the Bible about Jesus and - whether he existed or not - a statement about him changing George's heart is vague enough I can find little to quibble with.

But Mitt Romney says Jesus is coming back - to Missouri. That's a specific detail that speaks to idiocy, mental illness, or brainwashing, and deserves further investigation before he's put in control of the country. Add in the other whackadoodle "beliefs" (as well as various cons) of his cult - and the fact his wife can't tell the difference between water and medicine - and you've got a LOT OF REASONS to question his fitness for anything but the loony bin.

I've called, repeatedly, for vetting him. Who knows? He may have a clear-eyed response to anything asked. But you guys are insisting on never asking - and making excuses for him instead - while attacking anyone with the integrity to say "this shit doesn't add up." (You would have killed that kid who said the emperor has no clothes,...)

Just like the proverbial redneck drunk whose last words are "Hey...watch this." There are always going to be those people who will do themselves harm and others who will willingly harm themselves and possibly harm others. That last...harming others is the real problem, but if people want to act stupidly who are we to stop them.

Yes, but I gave you evidence what Ann Romney is doing harms others - and all I got is wyo sis going back on her word (which none of you called her on) trying to change the subject (which none of you called her on) and a bunch of lame defenses like this one - if harming others is "the real problem," and you know it does, where is your acknowledgment of that fact? You don't give one - instead you ignore it and repeat "harming others is the real problem".

You're talking madness.

Sounds cold and hard, but perhaps we are better off as a people if we just let some die by the stupid.

I'm all for that - but stopping outright fraud, con men, and waste, IS something we can do something about. Insisting those who dispense medical care be trained medical doctors IS something we can do something about. Insisting that what we know scientifically be the standard, by which we discuss what we know, IS something we can do something about.

Throwing our hands up, and saying there's nothing we can do about such things, ISN'T an answer to anything.

"I'm all for that - but stopping outright fraud, con men, and waste, IS something we can do something about. Insisting those who dispense medical care be trained medical doctors IS something we can do something about. Insisting that what we know scientifically be the standard, by which we discuss what we know, IS something we can do something about."

True enough, but there is difficulty making that work out right. You end up with dumb stuff like a state trying to shut down someone with a "Hey, Paleo worked for me!" blog and coaching service because he's not a registered approved *real* dietitian. If dieticians hadn't been telling us to eat mostly carbs and avoid salt and fat for my entire life, I might think we should support enforcement, but enforcing the "scientific" standard when it's been bogus forever?

Enforcement sort of assumes that there aren't disputes and disagreement about things like nutrition or what might be reasonable medically.

The history about how wrong "traditional" medicine can be doesn't reassure me that we're justified enabling enforcement even according to some agreed upon medical standard.

The enforcement mechanism is always government. Government told us to eat grains, lots and lots and lots of grains. Do we trust government? I don't.

I think that there *ought* to be a way to charge evil "spiritual" guru's who are responsible for sweat-lodge deaths, just like charging those who refuse to get their children medical treatment on religious grounds. Even if it's adults making their own choices. Hand me poisoned kool-aid, tell me it's good for me, if I die, I don't think it matters if no one *forced* me to drink it. Tell people who trust you that they're supposed to transcend their physical discomfort and they *do* it, and die... just because they weren't tied down shouldn't protect the person who set himself up as guru... because no one forced him to do that *either*.

Wow Crack, what the hell happened to you? You used to be cool dude. STFU you sound like a lunatic.

Ain't that the truth. The guy talking about operating from pure rationality comes across like the most unhinged guy, crazier than mitt Romney and most Mormons, even if they do believe in magic underwear. At least they're not foaming at the mouth!

Wow Crack, what the hell happened to you? You used to be cool dude. STFU you sound like a lunatic. Obama is going to lose. Take it like a man.

Take what like a man? I don't care if Obama loses - I never wanted him as president to begin with. What these poofs can't handle is I don't care if Romney wins either. Is lose-lose either way. So what-the-fuck are you people rooting for?

That's what bothers me - the insanity of people wanting to go with a cultist - even to defeat one.

Look, I know most of you don't have the finest ethical compasses out there. I see it in everything you write - it's hardly a concern, as it is with most people - most of you couldn't tell right from wrong if they were written in neon and looked like your mothers.

But that's not my problem - my problem is having to live with you.

You who defend evil, who see no crime in fraud, who don't care is science is mocked, who only want to beat Obama and that's as far as your pea brains are capable of going.

What happened to me? Nothing. I just got a good look at the rest of you and, not only how stupid you are, but how little you give a damn about anything because of it.

I'm still cool, though I doubt any of you ever were or ever will be.

There was nothing special about the Nazis, they were simple little peons without an ethical bone in their bodies like most of you:

You end up with dumb stuff like a state trying to shut down someone with a "Hey, Paleo worked for me!" blog and coaching service because he's not a registered approved *real* dietitian.

So what? What a loss to the world! Would you rather the alternative is what we have now - the Penelope Dingle story? Killed by her delusion fed by her fake dietician husband working with a homeopath? (He went on to marry another homeopath after Penelope died, too - a true love story,…)

See, what you think is horrible - a state trying to shut down someone with a "Hey, Paleo worked for me!" blog - is NOTHING compared to the horror we have now. I would gladly give up all the "Hey, Paleo worked for me!" blogs to make this chit stop.

If dieticians hadn't been telling us to eat mostly carbs and avoid salt and fat for my entire life, I might think we should support enforcement, but enforcing the "scientific" standard when it's been bogus forever?

I'm not talking about bullshit diet charts - there is settled science on enough shit that we could set some baselines and call it knowledge. But we don't - we let the bullshit hippie "nobody knows anything" mantra take over society to the point where we're forced to let the lunatics run the place. Well fuck them and fuck anybody comfortable with letting it continue.

Enforcement sort of assumes that there aren't disputes and disagreement about things like nutrition or what might be reasonable medically.

Fuck nutrition. You guys spend waaay to much time on bullshit like that as it is. Eat what the fuck you want, I do.

The history about how wrong "traditional" medicine can be doesn't reassure me that we're justified enabling enforcement even according to some agreed upon medical standard.

That's silly. Medicine has doubled the human lifespan in only 50 years. I'll be damned if I'm going to be dumb enough to let an exception like, say, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment warp my mind enough to forget why we're all living past 50.

Government told us to eat grains, lots and lots and lots of grains.

What is with you and food? We're discussing medicine and science - not government bullshit.

I think that there *ought* to be a way to charge evil "spiritual" guru's who are responsible for sweat-lodge deaths, just like charging those who refuse to get their children medical treatment on religious grounds.

But no way to stop them BEFORE THEY KILL? How helpful is that to anybody? Or to society?

Stop stupid people from going to aroma therapy every Tuesday? No.

No, don't stop stupid people from going to aroma therapy every Tuesday - stop aromatherapy altogether. Stop stating or even implying that's therapy at all. Stop bullshitting about it and throw the frauds in jail for fraud. It's simple.

Only y'all make it difficult.

You're too pussy to do the right thing.

All concerned we'll miss "Hey, Paleo worked for me!" more than lost money, lost social cohesion, and lost lives.

I keep coming back to the Nazis because that's all you guys are about:

Creating the EXACT SAME ENVIRONMENT that allowed them to prosper.

No reality. No baseline for understanding. No safeguards. No ethics.

That's what got the Jews ripped-off and murdered - just as you casually accept the theft and murder of others now through NewAge. All that's different is the timing and the scale.

You think of the Nazis and think only of the aftermath - the 6 million killed - while I think of the Nazis and I focus on the culture that horror arose from.

There is absolutely nothing different between your attitudes and those that led to the Third Reich.

Just like the Germans, you're too pussy to stand up when you see wrong. Just like the Germans, your minds are always focused on frivolous shit - like whether we can keep "Hey, Paleo worked for me!" blogs - and not on saving lives. Your every argument is in favor of (or an excuse for) nonsense, when there are serious concerns to defend.

This election is going to be a disaster - just as the last one was - because you guys are too damned stupid to be the leaders of a free country. As ben Franklin said, when asked what he'd given us:

"A republic - if you can keep it."

These last generations - and they will be the last generations - are just who he warned against.

You simply don't have the maturity, or the mental capabilities, to "keep it" any longer,...

Many practices that Crack disdains have helped many people get through tough times.

Well, actually many of the practices Crack mentions are uselesss as far as their claims go. There may be pyscho-social impact that sometimes positive ... placebo effect, etc. That does not validate the practices by any means.

Still, under a Romney administration our First Amendment rights will be maintained and the the Rule of Law will be valued unlike what we have under the Obama administration is which a wave of the hand, a dash of the pen, undoes the Constitution and the Rule of Law.

I prefer being able to point out misinformation instead of being ridiculed or silenced. The press of course will do what they see as their job in this case (R).

Ann will be ridiculed because she is Romney's wife, but that really will not sit well with those in the general public who remain civil.

Ouch - Some creepy comments here. I'm not used to that in Althouse-land.

You must be new.

God Bless Mrs. Romney for speaking so honestly to the American public.

Honestly? About what? That she doesn't know the difference between water and medicine?

To me - she is the real deal. A real woman - a real mom - a real wife - who is speaking from the heart about her trials and tribulations.

Ask her to explain reflexology. Then we'll see how "honest that "real woman - a real mom - a real wife" is. Or will she admit there's no connection between her internal organs and rubbing her feet? I'll tell you:

Your hero will lie.

Good Grief. If this were Michelle Obama going through this disease, would we have these kind of mean spirited comments?

Fuck that lantern jawed bitch. How's that - even without a disease?

I love it when First Ladies and potential First Ladies act like real people when they talk...

She's acting like a fucking moron - which you probably are to, if you've missed it already,...

Actually many of the practices Crack mentions are uselesss as far as their claims go. There may be pyscho-social impact that sometimes positive ... placebo effect, etc. That does not validate the practices by any means.

But we must allow unvalidated practices - what about the "Paleo worked for me!" blogs?

Still, under a Romney administration our First Amendment rights will be maintained and the the Rule of Law will be valued unlike what we have under the Obama administration is which a wave of the hand, a dash of the pen, undoes the Constitution and the Rule of Law.

Man, you guys have such faith in that man - I say faith because it's without proof of any kind. I live in Utah and I see nothing supporting the idea a Mormon will protect our rights on anything. All I see is you guys falling for their scam.

I prefer being able to point out misinformation instead of being ridiculed or silenced. The press of course will do what they see as their job in this case (R).

Fuck the press. They've been worthless for decades.

Ann will be ridiculed because she is Romney's wife, but that really will not sit well with those in the general public who remain civil.

Which will turn out to be a surprising large number, I think.

We'll see. I tell you - just like with Obama - you simply don't understand what you've gotten yourselves involved with,...

And Crack -- I can understand some of your anguish, but to quote Donald Rumsfeld ""As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

We go into this election with the candidates we've got.

And it is real clear that four more years of Barack Obama would be terrible -- simply terrible for America, Americans, and, I believe the world.

Crack -- I "converted" to Mormonism when I was in college. No, I did not get baptized. My parents extracted a promise from me that I wait a year as they felt I was being pressured. My mother even hauled me into NYC to see a psychologist as they thought I had lost my mind.

My mind was in fact changed radically after that through something I read about the Mormon belief system which I knew simply was not true -- and I and my family spent several years talking with people who were being recruited by the "missionaries" to discourage them from joing the Mormon church. My parents used to have the missionaries over for dinner, because they figured at least they weren't talking to anyone else. ;-)

I am quite familiar with the odd beliefs and compartmentalization and failure on their part to recognize the cognitive dissonance.

Also as an RN, a former resident of India for almost 4 years (which involved exposure to Hinduism, obviously), I have spoken to many church groups on both New Age issues and "alternative medicine." That includes some of the practices Mrs. Romney apparently has used / does utilize.

I am familiar with the fantastic claims made with alternative medicine. I am familiar with the difficulty in regulating these practices, and the skills and attention many of the practitioners (some of whom are well meaning and gullible, some of whom are simply snakes, and everything in between) pay to dancing around the edge of the laws governing the practice of medicine. We have a man in our church who is dying while I speak of what was probably a treatable cancer -- he used alternative treatments.

I have a number of friends in Christian apologetics and counter cult ministries who are not voting for Romney - Ryan because of the Mormonism.

I simply cannot in good conscience vote for Barack Obama. I can deal with the Mormon "Mafia" better than I can deal with Obama's evil.

Utah is not the US, nor will the US become Utah. (Did you come across the claim several years ago that there was more Prozac prescribed per capita in Utah than any other state? The perfection pressure on Mormon women is intense.)

I will vote Romney-Ryan. I am not electing his wife. I am not electing the Pope. I am electing a chief executive officer and Commander in Chief whom yes, I actually think is indeed a member of a theologically heretical (Christian perspective) group with some possible sociologically cult type behaviors.

The other choice, Barack Obama, is completely irresponsible, unacceptable and Constitutionally suicidal.

Not voting is a vote for Obama and I can not do that.

I will continue to be active on the local level and seek to educate, inform, and vote conservatives into office.

Psychologist? Psychiatrists? ARe you against those too? Oh, wait you know who's against psychiatry? Tom Cruise and the scientologists, and they're a cult. So, are you saying you believe in cultism, or nazism?

Hmmmm - Crack Emcee - I am not new to Althouse – been reading her blog for like – 4ever. I don’t comment that often but I read every post every day and often follow comments.

And you have been one of the most looney posters on this blog.You are so offensive and fallacious in most of your postings – you persuade no one. You should have been one of my students in Rhetoric and Composition – you would have learned how to establish more ethos (credibility) as a writer.

You need to make persuasive arguments to get people to accept your point of view and you – sadly – never have been able to do this over your many posts in many forums.

Get thee to an online course in Aristotelian Rhetoric or Toulmin argument, my correspondent here.(for example – note how I would never call you My Friend or My Colleague – as do so many blowhard politicians in league in our federal Congress…..you are neither in this case. You are simply my current correspondent).

And I see nothing wrong at all about reflexology – I think I bought some reflexology slippers along with my Feng Shui books back a few years ago. And I was at a Mexican spa last year where the Reflexology had me and my buddies rubbing our feet with new vigor for months. Who are you to say it doesn’t work? We kind of loved it.

And as to your completely profane and uncivil response here “Fuck that lantern jawed bitch. How's that - even without a disease?” – well – my unfriendly correspondent – you said it all.

And many here should just stop responding to your ill mannered comments until you learn how to make much better arguments.

Because to me – you are not even worth a minute or two notice….

If I didn’t really respect Ann Romney and admire her for her candid talk (as Ann’s post directed us to consider)…I would have never bothered with you at all.

Kathy wrote:And I see nothing wrong at all about reflexology – I think I bought some reflexology slippers along with my Feng Shui books back a few years ago. And I was at a Mexican spa last year where the Reflexology had me and my buddies rubbing our feet with new vigor for months. Who are you to say it doesn’t work? We kind of loved it.

that's the thing Crack doesn't get. Yes, it's true that you probably can't cure all diseseases simply by rubbing ones feet, and it's possible that those who follow reflexology overstate the benefits. But even if those benefits are not borne out, it doesn't meant that it doesnt' provide SOME benefit.But you opened up a can of worms, by mentioning Feng Shui. It means that you are a cultist, new ager and perhaps even a nazi. YOu don't by any chance use multivitamins do you? CULTIST!!! Just like Oprah, and Romney and the Nazis!

I always say that I'd never be willing to do certain things, but I've also never been in crippling pain with the knowledge that tomorrow will have more crippling pain in store for me. So, I've since decided not to knock people for whatever it is they try. If total quackery works solely because of a placebo effect, so what?

The person is not in crippling pain any more. It sucks when it doesn't work, but when it does, good on them.

It wouldn't be hard, but - clearly - the dumbshits are going to require society's failure before they go there. Oh well, that won't be long.

Ralph L,

If we could only get him to stop at that point--and everyone else responding, too.

Drives you nuts, don't it?

jr565,

We're done.

Palladian,

Repeatedly annexing the blog comments section of another blogger— especially when the annexer has his own blog— seems pretty cultish to me. After all, narcissistic personality disorder is usually a necessary component of cult leaders.

You know as much about cultism as I know about the feeling of having a dick up my ass - nothing. You leave what "seems pretty cultish" to me and I'll bow to you about blow jobs (wink) deal?

Kathy,

You are so offensive and fallacious in most of your postings – you persuade no one.

You silly bitch. If you think what I'm trying to do is "persuade" you, then you don't understand the phrase, "You silly bitch." So what am I doing? Try to figure that one out and get back to me. Lucky for me - considering the level of intelligence you've already exhibited ("she is the real deal. A real woman - a real mom - a real wife") you figuring out ANYTHING could take a while,…

Christopher in MA,

Says the clown who insists that, somehow, the Mormons infiltrated the Massachusetts legislature and conned them into creating Romneycare with the specific purpose of bankrupting Massachusetts.

You can mischaracterize my statements all day long but I won't take the bait. You're either too stupid to understand me or dumb enough to deliberately try and stick me with a lie. Either way, it won't work:

I've been here a long time - I'm a big boy - and people know I speak for myself, so your words mean nothing,…

It wouldn't be hard, but - clearly - the dumbshits are going to require society's failure before they go there. Oh well, that won't be long.

Ralph L,

If we could only get him to stop at that point--and everyone else responding, too.

Drives you nuts, don't it?

jr565,

We're done.

Palladian,

Repeatedly annexing the blog comments section of another blogger— especially when the annexer has his own blog— seems pretty cultish to me. After all, narcissistic personality disorder is usually a necessary component of cult leaders.

You know as much about cultism as I know about the feeling of having a dick up my ass - nothing. You leave what "seems pretty cultish" to me and I'll bow to you about blow jobs (wink) deal?

Kathy,

You are so offensive and fallacious in most of your postings – you persuade no one.

You silly bitch. If you think what I'm trying to do is "persuade" you, then you don't understand the phrase, "You silly bitch." So what am I doing? Try to figure that one out and get back to me. Lucky for me - considering the level of intelligence you've already exhibited ("she is the real deal. A real woman - a real mom - a real wife") you figuring out ANYTHING could take a while,…

Christopher in MA,

Says the clown who insists that, somehow, the Mormons infiltrated the Massachusetts legislature and conned them into creating Romneycare with the specific purpose of bankrupting Massachusetts.

You can mischaracterize my statements all day long but I won't take the bait. You're either too stupid to understand me or dumb enough to deliberately try and stick me with a lie. Either way, it won't work:

I've been here a long time - I'm a big boy - and people know I speak for myself, so your words mean nothing,…

Fen, at this point, I'm waiting to hear that Crack has snapped and shot up some innocuous if silly New-Age spirituality center. He shows all the signs - uncontrollable rage, inability to self-censor, lack of empathy, obsessive rage, fixation on a hate object.

Where *does* a stridently atheistic despiser of fru-fru New Ageyness get therapy, anyways? Do they just spiral downwards into a destructive fury, or is there some secular, non-"cultish" way for them to get their heads on straight before they kill somebody? Normal atheists see psychiatrists or therapists, members of a church see a priest, minister, rabbi or imam. At this point, I'm kind of worried that Crack goes and sees a gun range attendant.

Nice. I would advise you to find the link, above, to the Penelope Dingle story (or James Arthur Ray's "sweatlodge" killings) and tell us all how "fru-fru" unwarranted death is. And there's too many more just like it -almost all you're unaware of, as you look at NewAge as some harmless activity of flakes.

You're like the German public after the war, declaring they didn't know, when they DID KNOW the shit Nazis had been saying didn't make any sense but they didn't challenge it.

"fru-fru New Ageyness" is the American equivalent of saying "The Nazis had nice uniforms".

If that's all you noticed about them, you're probably one of the people they would've exterminated for being "defective"...

And I see nothing wrong at all about reflexology – I think I bought some reflexology slippers along with my Feng Shui books back a few years ago. And I was at a Mexican spa last year where the Reflexology had me and my buddies rubbing our feet with new vigor for months. Who are you to say it doesn’t work? We kind of loved it.

See, I followed this commenter's correction until here.

And then jr wroteYes, it's true that you probably can't cure all diseseases simply by rubbing ones feet, and it's possible that those who follow reflexology overstate the benefits. But even if those benefits are not borne out, it doesn't meant that it doesnt' provide SOME benefit.

Words have meaning. The claims made for reflexology and the alleged mechanism by which it works are a problem. A huge problem.

Who am I to say it doesn't work? Start by defining "work."

Each point on the foot, hand or ear was always associated with the body parts within the Zone of its alignment. Fitzgerald identified ten Zones which followed parallel lines vertically through the body. Hence a reflex in the Zone of a specific finger or toe would affect any organ or tissue group within that Zone from the toe all the way to the brain.. This was the system taught by Eunice Ingham Stopfel across the USA and learned by her student Zachary Brinkerhoff back in 1967. Google/bing it.

????

Right. And we have an overlooked Nobel Prize for Medicine looking us right in the face here. That and for discovering energy meridians and ch'i. /s

Many of the practices (not all) produce / enhance relaxation. Relaxation is indeed very beneficial. (Go to PubMed.) Many of the 'soft' alternative practices are nothing more than that. But it does not produce what is claimed. And claiming something specific and charging money for it .... That's the rub guys.

For people (many on this list) who claim to value education and despair at the shabby experiential / narrative / ideological driven substitutes we have in many public education venues now, you should be doing face palms.

The commenter above takes Crack to task for his poor rhetoric and sends him "back to school." I take you to task for sloppy thinking re the claims and efficacy of reflexology et. al.

Before anyone says "Who's to say it doesn't work"? do your homework. While you're at it shut off Dr. Oz and Andy Weil and Deepak and Oprah.

It isn't MATH but there are ways to evaluate the safety and effectiveness of the alternative practices. (Well, it involves math, come to think of it.) Millions of your tax dollars have been flushed down the toilet at the NIH (NCCAM)finding almost zero results.

And yes, that being said, I think Crack is overreacting, and I am still voting for Romney.

Why? IMO you were out of line in the comment I clipped, so I called you out on it, as I would anyone else. And as you feel free to do with everybody.

Because you don't get it;

I don't "feel free to do with everybody." jr is a *perfect* example:

I tried talking to him intelligently. I reasoned with him. I asked him. I begged him. I yelled at him. But still, as JAL caught, jr insists on using "weasel words" - and the arguments of weasels.

It does no good.

But the hammer - now, THAT WORKS. And that's instructive, because it shows us what NewAgers/Nazis have always required to be stopped:

They will push on, until you club them about the feet with it, always declaring it's YOU who are the bad guy for defending yourself, or a principle that deserves it, against their benign outlook and practices.

Their outlook and practices resulted in the deaths of 50 million people.

How many people - right now - are dying because of "fur-fru" NewAge beliefs? Do you know? Do any of you really know?

No. You know as much about it as you know about the Mormons - but you defend it anyway.

You're as blind as your avatar - and, in your case, I'm trying not to pick on the disabled.

I think I deserve a little credit, from you, for the compassion I'm showing towards you,...

I think I deserve a little credit, from you, for the compassion I'm showing towards you,...

I'm grateful.

Now I'll make one last comment in this thread.

You refuse to let anyone apply basic decision theory to Romney. Suppose we grant you every single point about Mormons--simply for argument's sake. Fine. But none of those cultish goals is going to be achieved with guaranteed success in a Romney presidency. So we attach what we see as the correct probabilities of occurrence for each cultish goal, and we weigh that against the probabilities of all the assorted economic and foreign-policy outcomes under Romney vs. Obama. Then we make our decisions.

That is rational decision-making.

You insist that the cult has a 100% probability of succeeding in its master plan. The rest of us disagree.

You insist that the cult has a 100% probability of succeeding in its master plan. The rest of us disagree.

It's really that simple.

Is not. For one thing, I NEVER even came close to suggesting anything was 100%. I said, even if there's a possibility, you don't do it without factoring it in.

You're only factoring it in, now, as a hypothetical for your argument - you're not taking it seriously - so you're leaving our ass totally hanging out for the fucking.

Once you can grasp the difference between your assumptions of what I say - and what I actually say - then, maybe, you will also be able to grasp how dangerous the game you guys are playing is. I'll repeat myself again - for the billionth time:

1) We need to vet Romney thoroughly - get him out of his comfort zone and make him really talk to us.

2) You can vote for Romney - and should - but I can't, for reasons that are obvious and, because you guys have been aware of them, FOR YEARS, you shouldn't hold that against me. You know my position and should respect it.

3) Before Romney is put into office - which he will be - you should put him and his cult on notice that we will not be their push-overs.

So, Crack, you deny you ever said that Romneycare was designed to bankrupt Massachusetts? Because I'm pretty sure that's exactly what you said when you were asked what Mormon-specific cult magick Romney performed during his tenure as governor.

I don't know how to search through this site, so I can't come up with your words. Not that I expect it would matter, anyway. You've got your tunnel vision and are wedded to it.

If I wer you, I'd make sure my passport is up to date, so you can escape once President Romney's Salt Lake Gestapo come for you.

So, Crack, you deny you ever said that Romneycare was designed to bankrupt Massachusetts? Because I'm pretty sure that's exactly what you said when you were asked what Mormon-specific cult magick Romney performed during his tenure as governor.

Nope - like Chip, you're letting your assumption/delusion get in the way of my words.

I did say RomneyCare resulted in Massachusetts' bankruptcy - and, since Romney did it because the idiots asked for it, it was an example of his lack of leadership.

I never said it was a Mormon plot or whatever else you're suggesting. You're just foaming at the mouth, spouting nonsense, because I won't endorse his cult.

I don't know how to search through this site, so I can't come up with your words. Not that I expect it would matter, anyway. You've got your tunnel vision and are wedded to it.

It's called having principles. You should try it sometimes. It garners respect in the long run.

If I wer you, I'd make sure my passport is up to date, so you can escape once President Romney's Salt Lake Gestapo come for you.

My friends and I have talked about that. I've made arrangements. What I find funny is you're too dumb/naive/gullible to understand how real that possibility is. You truly do buy into the "golly-gosh" bullshit they lay down:

I did say RomneyCare resulted in Massachusetts' bankruptcy - and since Romney did it because the idiots asked for it, it was an example of his lack of leadership.

Of course, you're ignoring (or forgetting) that the overwhelmingly Democrat Massachusetts legislature was instrumental in creating what you dub "RomneyCare," which only bears his name because of what he did to excise its more onerous provisions. You also forget that they had a veto-proof majority, so "RomneyCare" would have become law with or without his signature. If you want to call Mitt's refusing to veto a "lack of leadership," I'll agree with you, but I am not going to lay the blame for the entire program - nor of Massachusett's "bankruptcy" - on his shoulders.

What I find funny is you're too dumb/naive/gullible to understand how real that possibility is.

Words have meaning. The claims made for reflexology and the alleged mechanism by which it works are a problem. A huge problem.

Who am I to say it doesn't work? Start by defining "work."

Well it depends on what you're going to a reflexologist for. I don't in fact know what reflexology says it can cure, and I've never gone to one.If they are saying if you go to a relexologist you can cure cancer, it's probalby bunk. But can it help with pain? I don't see why not.You can stop a headache by rubbing your temples a certain way, so why would rubbing your feet necessarily not have any efficacy whatsoever? It's a massage. From a website that describes reflexologyReflexology has many benefits. It feels good. It is pleasant and soothing, and it relaxes the body. Each person responds to a reflexology in a unique way and on occasions may experience a variety of short term reactions, for example, extreme relaxation, tiredness, lethargy or tearfulness. Reflexology is not a ‘cure-all’. However, reflexology does help releive pain associated with migraine, sinus problems, breathing disorders, digestive problems, circulatory problems, back problems, tension, and stress.So, considering this person isn't arguing that it will cure all disease, lets look at what it says it will help with. And that is relieving pain. I don't see why you would argue that wasn't the case. If you go to a pain specialist they can tell you how to stop a migraine by massaging your temple. Clearly there is something to be said for rubbing your body in a certian way corresponding to a lowering of pain sensations. Massage also shows that this is true. So, if a reflexologist is saying they can cure your friends colon cancer with reflexology he's probalby a charlatan. But if you go to reflexologist because he says he can pain associated with stress, and after going you feel like you have less pain associated with stress, how is it bunk? Kapiche?Now you went after Kathy for saying the following?And I was at a Mexican spa last year where the Reflexology had me and my buddies rubbing our feet with new vigor for months. Who are you to say it doesn’t work? We kind of loved it.What did she go to a refexologist for, what did he say he would do for her, and was he successful with it? I don't think he cured her of some major disease, maybe it was simply a way to remove tension and was effective at that. And that's what she means by "it worked". Maybe reflexology is effective at helping Kathy with those things that she felt it was helpful for. Would she go back again? Then it worked. YOu're perfectly free to not go to a reflexologist though if you don't want to. That's what having a free market is all about.

While taking a cab in to work today I saw a health alert on the monitor that says that drinking coffee can help prevent parkinsons and diabetes (i assume type 2). And I wonder how Crack should take that. It's based on a study. And it involves drinking liquid derived from a bean. Whether it ultimately is borne out by further studies, or is later made bunk by yet further studies, as it stands now, scientists are saying drinking coffee has beneficial properties for various diseases. Should Crack reject this out of hand? Beause a coffee bean is natural?What if, after seeing this study, more people go to a vitamin store and buy a supplement that contains coffee concentration. Is that NECESSARILY a sham and are those providing what people have been told may help prevent diseases necessarily charlatans? If coffee has some of these effects, why not say Green Tea, or some other substance (also sold in a health food store).

jr565 And he may have died from getting treated using traditional means as well.As many cancer patients families can attest.

You missed the part about it being slow growing colon cancer which has one of the highest cure ---> cure<--- rates of the cancers.

According to an article published in the European Journal of Cancer, tumor location impacts colon cancer survival rate. In the United States for example, the five-year survival rate for tumors in the ascending colon (closest to the small intestine) is about 63%. In the transverse colon, the survival rate is about 59%, and in the descending colon, it's about 66%. (The five-year survival rate represents the percentage of patients alive five years after their initial diagnosis.)

Colon Cancer Survival Rates in Different CountriesAccording to the same study, colon cancer survival rates also vary by country. While the overall five-year survival for colon cancer in America is 62%, it's 43% in Europe <-- Included for those enamored with European health care.

Of course he could have died during science based treatment. Who is talking 100% here? (It's 100% we all die.)

That's why MATH is useful. But even a cursory glance at the numbers show that at five years (his baby could have been 6 1/2 and have memories of him) he had a >6 in 10 chance of being alive.

Alt cancer practitioners do no statistically and scientifically appropriate follow up and they have *no* numbers. They have the random surivior feel good anecdotes.

If you want to call Mitt's refusing to veto a "lack of leadership," I'll agree with you, but I am not going to lay the blame for the entire program - nor of Massachusett's "bankruptcy" - on his shoulders.

That's your choice.

A Salt Lake Gestapo is a "real possibility?"

You are talking about a people who have risen in Brigham Young's image, and he was an extremely callous, unethical, and violent man (I've already mentioned his saying people who mixed races should have their heads cut off, and there's also the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and more). Behind that wholesome demeanor Mormons project is a steely, and cunning, outlook on life - which is the product of, both, a will to survive in a (rightly) hostile environment and their fraudulent "teachings" - and to not see that aspect of them is to not see them at all.

They see absolutely nothing wrong in violating other's rights, "Lying For The Lord," or applying intimidation where they see fit.

You say "Gestapo," JAL called it a "Mafia," but - whatever you want to call it - it ain't all sweetness-and-light, and it's NOTHING like your typical church down the street,...