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Originally posted by JaxRed The biggest question here is did the 36 mill include Riverfront rent?

Probably. From the site:

"The black hole of MLB's financial disclosures is titled "National and Other Local Expenses." This category includes all operating expenses other than those associated with players on the 40-man roster. Legitimate expenses in this category include salaries for managers, coaches, and scouts; signing bonuses for draftees and foreign free agents; the farm system; stadium expenses; front-office payrolls; and the cost of operating Major League Baseball's central office in New York."

Originally posted by Redsland I read Pappas's articles, but in the end, I didn't use any of them. I, like Congress, simply don't trust MLB's numbers.

That said, MLB told Congress that the Reds' non-player expenses for 2001 were $36,533,000. Add up all of the non-player expenses in my table, and you have $30,500,000.

You can do what you like, and you certainly have researched and authenticated your figures. It seems pretty clear, though, that even Pappas trusts the Reds number ("The Expos' layout of $35 million is probably close to the minimum any club can reasonably spend") and suggests that new parks add to expenses as well as revenues ("The Pirates' high costs are also presumably inflated by expenses related to the opening of their new park"). I also would add that the MLB figures are from two years ago, and expenses likely have not diminished in the interim.

On the subject of GAB, I also wonder about the Reds' final payments toward its construction. (The rent/maintenance article suggests that the Reds owe another $10 million.)

Some other line items that may or may not be included in the $13 million include interest and the cost of insurance on player contracts, Griffey's LTC in particular.

On the subject of GAB, I also wonder about the Reds' final payments toward its construction. (The rent/maintenance article suggests that the Reds owe another $10 million.)

What about these costs?

Are they counted" as of yet?

A new $12.3 million building along Main Street that will house a Reds merchandise store and a Hall of Fame. The shop will be two stories and 5,500 square feet. It's expected to open by June 1.

Monday morning, demolition of concession stands on the first-base concourse begins. Two 30-foot breezeways will be cut through, connecting the concourse to a new plaza on the west side, and a new "mega-concession stand" will be built. The first-base concourse will be about eight feet wider, eliminating a frustrating bottleneck.

Just south of the Hall of Fame will be the Rose Garden. Delano said architects viewed video of Pete Rose's historic hit No. 4,192 from a variety of angles to estimate where it landed. He thinks they've nailed the location within five feet. Roses will grow from planters.

ē In the southwest corner of the ballpark, close to the river, will be a plaza of more than an acre. The area will contain picnic tables, a bandstand and lots of things to do, mostly for children. Much of this will be ready Opening Day.

The point I meant to make at the end of my last post was that my number and MLB's number are reasonably close. And since I think MLB's number is inflated, whereas some think my number is low, I suspect the true number is right in this neighborhood. (Sorry, I should have been clearer.)

All GAB payments have been made, so there's nothing to worry about there.

Insurance is already covered in Pappas's "Non-Player Expenses" category, of which my own "Admin/Ops/Devel" grab bag is a subset. So, like Ragu, it's in there.

"We're concerned, but we're not panicked," said Hamilton County Administrator David Krings.

Krings said the county is working on ways to beef up riverfront parking revenue and is keeping tight controls on final construction costs for the Hall of Fame at the Reds' Great American Ball Park."

"The county's stadium financing model is expected to break even through the end of construction of the Reds' facility this year. The county is completing work on the Reds Hall of Fame and some infrastructure around the ballpark, said Assistant County Administrator Eric Stuckey, Krings' top budget official."

Redsland, you were clear. Also, I understand that one part of this exercise is to either substsantiate or disprove the Reds' bottom line -- meaning that any numbers provided directly from the Reds or MLB should be treated with skepticism.

All that said, it's fairly clear that even MLB's foremost economic skeptic has no quibble with the Reds bottom line figure from 2001 -- which, in turn, is certain to be less than the bottom line figure for 2003 (with or without the new stadium).

I also understand that every nonenumerated expense is "in" your $13 million figure, insurance and interest included. On that score, frankly, I just don't buy it. Not even close. As one example, the Milwaukee paper you linked showed the Brewers paying $10 million in minor league expenses alone in FY 1999, and $25 million for administrative expenses, player development and interest combined. I just don't see how that squares with an estimated $13 million 2003 burden for the Reds. (Note: is it possible that the number you "heard" was $30 million, not $13? And how do you know that includes everything?)

On the Reds payments for the GAB, your City Beat article says this: "the Reds will owe the final $10 million of their $30 million upfront contribution for the stadium when it's completed, they might not write that check until next year." Since that artucle was written at the end of the 2002 season, I would wager on the final $10 million coming as a 2003 expense.

Please don't get me wrong here; I think you have done a fantastic job. I just think some of the numbers warrant greater scrutiny.

I'm afraid we're just about to lose Redsland as an honest broker in this discussion. The numbers are starting to look bad. The Reds must have paid rent at Riverfront. I'll see if I can find out how much.

The lowest acceptable payroll amount for ownership to show they are not greedy pigs is 15 million more than they are currently paying. No matter what that currently is.

Originally posted by JaxRed I'm afraid we're just about to lose Redsland as an honest broker in this discussion.

Fear not. I want to get the numbers as accurate as possible, regardless of what they show. I've already adjusted my table at the beginning of this thread three or four times today, thanks to confirmed numbers provided by helpful Zoners.

Originally posted by JaxRed I'm afraid we're just about to lose Redsland as an honest broker in this discussion. The numbers are starting to look bad. The Reds must have paid rent at Riverfront. I'll see if I can find out how much.

Jax, I think that is unnecessaily critical. Redsland did a bang-up job with the original numbers and has responded to all queries. Plus, Chip's article suggests that the Reds skated on $6 million-plus in backrent.

After the feel-good opening of Great American Ball Park on Monday, the Reds and Hamilton County will turn their attention to one item of unfinished business: the third $10 million payment required of the team for ballpark construction.

Except for one thing: It won't be $10 million.

The Reds already have pulled several items out of the contract and bought them themselves. Those include the video board, replay system, playing surface and other items.

With these items costing millions of dollars, the actual payment will be substantially less than $10 million, said Reds chief operating officer John Allen.

Eric Stuckey, the county's assistant administrator for administrative services, said the team and county would talk in coming weeks about how much cash the team will pay. The payment is due on the "completion date," which most had estimated would fall about April 1.

"We're going to work with each other on that issue," Stuckey said.

Okay, so we have a one-time payment of unknown amount and some costs associated with infrastructure. I'm not sure how to proceed with this info, but I'll give it some thought.

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