Tri, I made some minor alterations to chapter 2, but I feel like I've reached a limit in adding content the chapter.

In addition:

Fall Family Wrote:With regards to your use of "natural plurals" in the preface, do you mean both endogenic and traumagenic plurality (as well as any other that isn't created) or just endogenic.

Tulpas are artificial plurality.

Quote:What you described with fugue is partially accurate, but it is using the other meaning of "identity" (as in, social/legal identity) which causes ambiguity since all other uses of identity is the more subjective personal kind. It is dissociative amnesia of biographical information and going forward anyways/wandering/etc. taking a name possibly and what not as one goes.

What you define is a fugue state, which "often" involves walking around. What is the subjective personal definition of identity?

Quote:Would maybe change "Tulpas rarely suffer the same mental conditions you do" to "Tulpas rarely suffer the same mental conditions with the exact same flavor/manifestation as you do." since often mental conditions are shared like you say later but different people in a brain handle them differently and/or deal with different symptomology like you mention later.

The studies I linked back the statement. I'll change it if you can find reason the studies are misleading.

waffles, with the new introductory text in chapters 4, 5, and 6, I am now happy with the structure of those chapters, so I won't be making any more changes on that front unless someone points out a new flaw.

Well, it's a very long one and I've been kind of busy, so I couldn't really read it in one go and that might mean some things will be a bit off or repeated or something. Or maybe you repeated something in the guide and I didn't catch it because I forgot what was said earlier. Keep that in mind. No idea if you already managed to change some things while I was working on this because other people mentioned stuff uhh

Using terms like tulpamancy, systems and plurals etc. is still pretty silly-looking. If you are planning on using said terms right from the start and looking at the style you have written things, I would suggest you explain the terms in passing the first time you use each term, for newcomers. Having a list at the end doesn't help with this, because we start from page 1 and not page bajillion. Having a list at the start just clutters it. A simple quick definition when needed would go a long way.

"Subconscious" is back with vengeance. Too bad I still have no idea what you actually mean with it. You say you don't mean an entity (I think?) but you always make it sound like one and you have written about "subconscious entities" in your text in a way that doesn't suggest you don't believe in them…

The further I got into this, the more I started to wonder if shuffling everything around works. You used to have a list of exercises for people, which made it easy for people to pretty much skip all the stuff and head right to them for help. Now you have sprinkled the exercises around, which does work better with a guide format, but… It makes the assumption people will read the whole thing. They won't. It's long. That's kinda what people do. Was there a huge disclaimer at the start about there being exercises in pretty much every chapter to help with the contents of said chapter? Most people will scroll over table of contents and miss it, but would start reading the actual text parts. This might help people find the exercises that are now much more hidden than before.

As the citations aren't clickable (I think? I don't think it's going to even be possible?), it's pretty difficult to check them in the middle of reading.

When looking at your creation guide, you do refer to personality/form/voice as the first step, second step and third step. But technically you don't really need any of them. Maybe make a note that they're the first etc. step as far as it comes to your guide? Considering the rest of the tone of what you have written, someone might very well take it as some universal truth.

Then some stuff. Typos and questions and objections and all that good old stuff.

That is how it started. I guess in that way, the "base" indeed does come from there. But not much of that "base" is around anymore. Are the newbies from various chans? They don't really seem to be having the skin for being able to handle such a culture, so I am skeptical. Seems more Tumblr/Reddit crowd, honestly.

Quote:Known by some as the land of the Social Justice Warrior...

Plural, surely? Warriors?

Quote:A basic example, if you go old school and do not assist your tulpa in any way but force them for long hours, they tend to have little trouble thinking independently of your attention and keeping secrets.

Maybe I'm just tired as I read this, but I can read this both ways. They don't have issues or they do have some issues with that. Which one do you mean?

First chapter is mostly fine (though is the last sentence in the intro supposed to be there?). Some subconscious talk. I have no idea what your definition of sapience is though, if you're claiming computers are sapient. We don't have AIs of that caliber yet.

>all beliefs are false until proven true, is not a very scientific mindset and I find it weird that you have kept this in this chapter. The symbolic zapping ritual/distraction aids for intrusive thoughts gets mixed in with the rest of the list in 2.2, it should be made clearer that they are connected to the intrusive thoughts bit.

Quote:Hallucinations that occur to the body or voice of the tulpa are called glitches…

Are they? First time I've heard someone use this term. Was this term coined by one of those people who likes those "brain is like a computer" analogies?

Quote:Tulpa, love your host.

Again, can we not? This stuff is creepy. You can't tell people how they should feel about someone else.

Quote:The reward centre is a part of the brain that releases endorphins and other feelgood chemicals when the mind thinks it has done something fun, or good, in order to reinforce the behaviour. This is possible directly, since you are inside their brain…

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I'm pretty sure we lack the required tests to say this is what is happening.

Quote:…and also indirectly, through doing fun things.

Focus on this instead.

Quote:Soulbonds, a type of accidental tulpa, comes from writers getting carried away with building their characters.

Isn't this a "fictive"? Say "soulbond" to me and I see people fantasizing about their favorite fictional character in their favorite media until it talks back – not them creating a character and doing the same. It would also be a better term due to having you know, less baggage.

Still not seeing hosts as a particularly empathetic group.

>nosebleeds

shiiit has someone actually ended up having their nose bleed when forcing?

Quote:All other drugs will either have no effect on forcing, or in rare cases will impede progress.

This still exists? I don't think you have tested these "all other drugs" to be able to claim that they will not have any effect on forcing or that they might hurt. Reword this.

Quote:Do not take them unless needed for mood stabilisation.

Or gee I dunno, any other reason you have been prescribed medicine for – which includes way more than "mood stabilization". Again. You should not tell people to drop their medication without them talking to their doctor about it first! Are you understanding how harmful your advice is? How it's potentially fatal? You might be perfectly healthy yourself and that's great, but don't think everyone has a choice.

>Relax more, and it works more better. is probably a joke but in case you want, "work even better". >It is an undiscovered country. would also sound better as "unexplored territory", though Shakespeare's fine I guess.

It's a bit strange for you to mention centering in the emotional control bit and not follow it up with the exercise, when you have added ways to do things after whatever you have talked about previously in the guide. But eh, I guess it's close enough…

Quote:You also need to learn to teach your subconscious things. Which there are several ways to do. A tulpa's mind starts in your subconscious.

Quote:Your subconscious will stop working on the problem of your tulpa and giving you new ideas and strategies.

Quote:First, your subconscious will automatically be engaged in creating your tulpa full time.

help

Quote:Your tulpa is cut from the same cloth you are, so they will end up with a personality you would be capable of yourself.

You keep changing this, always missing the point. Your tulpa is not cut from the same cloth you are. They can be. They are not. A lot are very different, even exact opposites. False advertising.

Quote:Also, sex is gross…

wow…

Quote:Taking the life from someone after you have given it to them is a definite no-go according to pretty much everyone.

I know what you mean, but it's pretty dangerously worded. Out of context I'm thinking abortions, and I'm thinking this might be taken out of context even if people do read the whole thing. Are you ready for the pro-life/choice fights?

Quote:What about longer gaps? Even a tulpa out of the critical period does need to interact with you, or eventually they will go dormant, and cease to exist effectively. Scary stuff to think about if you are a tulpa.

You're mentioning the tulpa's side, but only really looking at the host's side. What could a tulpa do? Should they allow themselves to stop existing? Can they prevent it? "We don't know" is probably the answer, but does that mean you shouldn't even try?

Quote:Just try that weird sitting position where you put your feet overtop your legs if you want to feel like you are doing something magical.

Uh. You mean the lotus position or?

Quote:Subconscious Communion

It's back. Still not fixed. Still not clear it's symbolism (you say it is, but then you might be saying it isn't, or that it is, or that…) and you're still treating it as an entity (but it's not, or it is, or it isn't, or it is…) and that's why "subconscious" is a confusing word.

Quote:Constructed world: An intentionally induced paracosm that follows more formalised rules. Usually created for use in speculative fiction writing.

Incorrect. A paracosm is a constructed world. A constructed world might not be a paracosm: a paracosm requires enough depth and complexity a constructed world might not have yet – or never will. It doesn't make it less of a constructed world. Seriously. Constructed world. It's in the name. A world you constructed.

Quote:A world constructed by your subconscious…

Quote:A feeling of meaningfulness is a shared private language between you and your subconscious.

Quote:…your subconscious will take it as an instruction to make it real, to the best of its ability. It can't do everything, but your subconscious can make forcing either a lot easier or a lot harder.

Man this subconscious guy is always one step ahead of me.

Quote:The wing of a bird, for example, is mostly a giant hand.

The arm. Not just the hand, the whole thang. And not particularly "giant"… I feel that you have failed the step you are putting in this exercise and you don't actually understand how a bird's wing bones relate to a human's arm bones. This might help

Quote:When you arrive at this point, where you are beginning to look at vocality.

Sentence seems incomplete?

Quote:And if it takes more than a few days, you will, not might, but will experience the sense that you are doing something wrong.

Subjective. I sure didn't and it took way more than a few days.

Quote:Inovate or research…

Innovate

Quote:Structure them in English, then actually hear what it would sound like, like a rehearsal.

Reminder that not all people will use English.

Quote:You can develop and refine the voice by using it yourself in your mind. This is different from parroting, where you have your tulpa use the voice themselves.

This kinda reads like parroting is when the tulpa uses a voice, well, themselves. As in not parroting. Slight reword?

Quote:Your host should already have one [mindvoice], so the skills are in your head somewhere.

This is a bit strange after a part saying that the host might not have one. A lot of your exercises are written from your previous point of view which was extremely you-centered, while the new stuff isn't as much. It just jumps out in parts like these.

Quote:Your brain intuits the same sounding voice as coming from the same person and a different sounding voice as coming from a different person.

This one's still [citation needed], isn't it?

Quote:You have a soul. I won't tell you what it is made out of, but you have a soul.

Quote:I only know of myself and one other as examples of tulpas who can take control by force.

You can add in >the horn to your mental list. I don't think it's as rare as you think.

Quote:Part of your Imagination.

Was this part meant to be bolded? Odd capitalization too.

Quote:Your subconscious will be given full freedom to breathe as much life as it wants into your tulpa.

Man, the subconscious just keeps on giving, huh.

Quote:Consequently, you are suppressing your tulpa unconsciously a little bit.

You have no idea how much I enjoy the fact that you didn't use "subconsciously".

Quote:Your subconscious thoughts and your memories.

Oh. :<

Quote:The Dark Arts

Oh hey I think this actually works now, giving people lots of things (including actual things!) and not just your magic stuff. Not sure if you should put the obscure thing you like as the first thing, when something like lucid dreaming would be more known and well. Studied and all.

Quote:You can make it a little more interesting by studying A related topic.

A?!

Quote:Or wikipedia

I think they capitalize Wikipedia.

Trust exercise still reads badly and like the usual just believe/trust (they are synonyms if you can easily replace the word with one or the other and have the same message, which you do in this case) bullshit.

Considering that you have put in images in your guide, why not have an actual image of this?

Quote:They are otherwise so similar to tulpas that accidental tulpa is used interchangeably with soulbond.

I still question this claim. If some communities or people in this community use it, the question then is should it be used. I have suggested against soulbond before due to the baggage it comes with. Kinda like furry/brony. You really don't want to use those terms unless you want to be labeled as everything negative these communities are.

Quote:This is where One thoughtform splits into two.

Odd capitalization.

"Old school" section, it's a bit strangely names when it talks about both "old school" and "new school". Shouldn't it be split? Renamed? SCHOOL WARS?!

Quote:Do tulpas have their own subconsciouses?

Do we hosts? A question that can't be answered with what we know now. Even more difficult to answer when your definition of subconscious" is still a great big mystery to me.

Freud isn't modern psychology. While you're free to present theories, I think it's clear here which one you consider the best one despite it being grossly outdated.

Quote:…it is also very effective at rewiring your subconscious.

If it exists? I don't think you should be making such claims on a forum that tries to be scientific. I suggest you make a search on "subconscious" and see what kind of wild claims you have made throughout the guide.

As for hypnosis and tuppers in general, afraid I don't really have any experience, first hand or second hand. Hypnosis isn't really my thing. Still, seems needlessly negative.

Quote:…or you might accidentally hypnotise yourself.

There is nothing wrong with self-hypnosis. I suggest you add that in there somewhere. Obviously it's a bother if you weren't aiming for it, but the way you've written it makes it sound like it's DANGEROUS and BAD. Which in turn might hurt people who did accidentally do it and panic.

Quote:The general rule is, there is always an easier way to accomplish anything that through a tulpa.

Missing word or typo? Than, maybe?

Quote:Half of them are controlled subconsciously…

Most of the time you use subconsciously when you mean unconsciously, but then you're like "but that's totally different!" and I have no idea what you're even talking about.

Quote:Maybe manifest "Energy limbs" much the same way as you do imposition.

Intentional caps? Also what energy limbs the same way you do imposition?

Quote:It has no relevance until your tulpa learns to be the primary thinker.

Uh oh! Cancerous mindset alert! It's back!

Ps. there is no "the primary thinker".

Quote:If successful, the tulpa should feel a suddenly improved ability to see themselves, and they should feel like they can think way better than normal. One way or another, this should allow the tulpa to better understand how to think like a human.

Again, you make it sound like a tulpa will always feel this or that way by doing this. They might. They might already be as far as they can be. You need a disclaimer about this being an aid in case they are having trouble with these things.

A lot of the exercises were just symbolism here, which is a bit disappointing but I guess they tried to at least explain like, the idea behind them and all.

Quote:The other choice would be to force inside an empty void, which doesn't tend to work too well.

It does for some. I suggest wording it to be "which might not work too well" or something.

Quote:The importance of scent and taste are often looked.

Overlooked, I assume?

Quote:When they impose the first time, they will most likely be very faded.

They who? I assume the tulpa, but you never actually said who the them/they is before you started to use that. Also maybe reread that sentence and say if it flows well to you.

Quote:Usually, a tulpa has an artificial view of the world as if they are seeing from their perspective. Like how you can get immersed in a 3D third person game until it feels like it is first person. But a tulpa can also see directly first person. This is a further use of that memory map people have of their surroundings.

I feel this is unclear. They are seeing from their perspective but it is not first person? It's not normal for a tulpa to have a first person view of things when imposed?

This part in general is a bit off. It's about what the tulpa experiences, but all you're talking about is looking at the environment from different angles. You need more about the actual experiences. A pointer about them obviously not able to see things you're not aware of. A tupper won't know what's behind the corner if something changed there, for example. Obvious, but some people do want to hear that.

Quote:(4) Mix it up with a sexy pose.

Purely for entertainment purposes, show off to your host to end the exercise.

Quote:In this final chapter, we will return to the means of communication available to the tulpa, and broaden our options.

But it's not the final chapter at all!

Quote:Primacy is the state of the most alert thinker.

Better. Still implies there is a more alert thinker in the equation.

Quote:Possession is easier when you become primary.

Wrong term. Still no, if you don't make a disclaimer that this is something that might happen. As it is currently written, it still seems like a claim of this happening every single time.

Quote:This can be modified by having the current primary thinker…

Wrong term.

About fronting and co-fronting, I thought fronting is when there is just one person looking and co-fronting is when there's multiple? As in, that's what possession usually is, with switching being where you have that true one front-er. Last I heard about the non-tulpa communities that actually use the terms fronting and such, it has nothing to do with who is in control.

Quote:It can be eclipse like…

Just mentioning it like that – especially when it's a pretty obscure term even in .info where it was named – is pretty confusing. I guess you explain it almost right after this, but it did make me go "huh?".

Quote:Eclipsing is when you subconsciously suggest things to your host and they do it automagically.

Man that subconscious is still so good.

Quote:In the greater plurality community, where there is often less control

Yes?

I didn't cut that off or anything.

Quote:Indirect possession is when the control of the body feels unnatural to you. You have not fully associated with it.

The name does not match the definition at all.

Quote:Direct possession is when you control the whole body and it feels natural to you.

I suggest putting "aka full-body possession" or something in this one, as it's a common .info term.

Quote:What is going to happen is going to feel like you are doing it yourself.

It might not. Always a good idea to mention that, even if the majority won't experience that, because people might then think they're doing something wrong even if they're doing everything absolutely right.

Quote:This will lead to wobbliness.

It might not. Especially as the tuppers get better at moving things.

Quote:Older thoughtforms get over this period in a matter of days, usually, but younger ones can take months.

What period? What takes days or months based on age? Not feeling exhausted? Does old mean OLD SCHOOL method tuppers or just old as in age?

Quote:There is some interesting science here. Body image is a map of the body that exists inside everyone's mind. It is super closely connected to identity by default.

Was there actual science in this? I think we were looking for citations last time and couldn't find them? Did you find them now?

Quote:By toying with the idea of changing this body image, we are reaching deep into the esoteric arts, and doing things no person is supposed to do.

I still don't know if this is a joke or not. With you, it's impossible to tell.

Overall, I think you've worked on your tone and actually done research on things, which is good. You've also fixed or at least attempted to fix some of the issues I have had with your previous stuff. But the exercises feel like they are like, five versions behind. They're written very much like how you used to write things and that means some of them just read poorly and make wild claims you have toned down in most of the other parts.

I'm not gonna do back and forth this time because it took a forever last time and basically didn't go anywhere until you decided to rewrite things I guess. So here, take this and do whatever you want with it.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

me Wrote:When you arrive at this point, where you are beginning to look at vocality.

I actually fixed that with a stealth edit yesterday.

you Wrote:Reminder that not all people will use English.

The document is english language. The french translation will use the word french as a substitute.

you Wrote:"Subconscious" is back with vengeance.

Yep. I completely gave up on trying to work around that word when talking about non conscious parts of the mind.

Anyhow, last time, you read through my entire guide like once a week. This time, the guide is probably going to go through much less revision, so the tiny changes probably won't even be noticeable. Though, you can look at the changelog to see what's changed.

I could make clickable citations. It would be a pain in the A** but I could. The citations are difficult to check. The bibliography is mostly for people doing in depth research.

Quote:>nosebleeds

shiiit has someone actually ended up having their nose bleed when forcing?

Yeah.

me Wrote:Taking the life from someone after you have given it to them is a definite no-go according to pretty much everyone.

you Wrote:I know what you mean, but it's pretty dangerously worded. Out of context I'm thinking abortions, and I'm thinking this might be taken out of context even if people do read the whole thing. Are you ready for the pro-life/choice fights?

I take no side. But introducing and starting controversy is well within the bounds of the objectives of this guide.

Quote:Uh. You mean the lotus position or?

Yeah.

Your mind is so dirty. Or maybe you are just coming to understand how I think. Seems very common with tulpas, but hosts tend to take a while to catch on.

Found another problem with co-fronting. The term co-conscious fits in there somehow. Next revision will consequently clean some of that stuff up. However, no, possession is strictly about body control. Always has been.

Still appreciate your input. This time I will pick and choose from among your criticism for things to investigate, as I now see many of the controversies you spot as proof that I actually wrote properly on the topic. I also want to work more comedy back in instead of taking any out, so, yeah.

Problem with "the subconscious (mind)" is that it isn't a thing, it's just "the rest". In the background. Unconscious, but so much so it isn't normally considered "you" either. When things affect your subconscious (mind), or when your subconscious (mind) "fills in" details, you're basically just talking about the mind's functioning as normal. But you're doing so in a way that implies "the subconscious" is "the subconscious", and not "the subconscious parts of your mind". Like saying that learning something and committing it to long-term memory is "teaching your subconscious mind". Sure, it is, but that's just called learning, you aren't teaching something to another entity.

But let's be honest, in this community where one mind often lays claim to multiple "consciousnesses", perhaps this idea of "the subconscious" being a separate entity is only natural? Of course no one will ever think of it like that, but I'm just saying, people may become inclined over time to refer to their subconscious mind as separate, because their own conscious mind is no longer 1-to-1 with it, the others in their mind share it. And yes, you all share one "subconscious mind". Because that one subconscious mind is just all the information in the brain. Don't worry, it's perfectly convoluted enough to store all your information and connections between those bits of information separately as if there were multiple anyways. Think of it however you like until we've got some actually scientific understanding, though.

"Eclipsing is when you subconsciously suggest things to your host and they do it automagically."
In this case "subconsciously" is less referring to how the tulpa does it, and moreso how the host receives it, ie subconsciously. I suppose it could be subconscious on the tulpa's part, too. That's another way of saying one of you is unknowingly influencing the other, who is unknowingly being influenced. Totally unrelated to the "the subconscious" stuff, in my opinion. Perhaps a tulpa can purposely suggest things to their host who receives the suggestions subconsciously, though. I would just take that all as-is, doesn't need to be more complicated.

I have almost no idea what "being primary" means by the way. You probably explained it in the guide, but I'm just saying, I don't know what it means. Is this all that highly-in-depth full-body possession stuff that's almost but not quite switching? Like the host is effectively not there and the tulpa is effectively connected to the senses, but neither is technically the case? If so, that's way outside our field of knowledge. Possession feels like constantly leaning over someone's shoulder to us, and full-body possession is like sitting in their lap. I have no advice for something I find so uncomfortable, nor much want to understand it further. Also fronting by default here usually refers to switching but, if I'm not mistaken, can be used interchangeably to refer to switching or that in-depth full-body possession stuff we don't quite understand. So if "being primary" refers to one or both of those, definitely specify I guess?

I don't have much time so I just read Sands' reply, if you explained that stuff in the actual guide then ignore me.

Tewi, did you read the original guide, or are you just taking Sands' word that I did that?

Quote:And yes, you all share one "subconscious mind". Because that one subconscious mind is just all the information in the brain.

For example this. Is a direct refutation of what I wrote in the guide. The obvious question is why you would say the opposite of what I say in the guide but fail to address the supporting evidence I put behind it.

No, primacy is just a word I use to talk about the mechanics of lucidity and floating levels of awareness that you can study and play around with when there is more than one consciousness in the mind.

Quote:The document is english language. The french translation will use the word french as a substitute.

But the people reading this in English might not want to use English. The people reading your future French guide might not want to use French. It's just such a weird wording when you can so easily add in that people can use whatever language they're comfortable with.

Quote:Yep. I completely gave up on trying to work around that word when talking about non conscious parts of the mind.

Please do, however. I still have no idea what you mean and I am getting the feeling that your definition of this "the subconscious" is extremely unscientific. That should not be accepted in a community that attempts to be scientific. Tewi is stating a lot of my own worries about this and other terms. But we've talked about this so many times and you never cared, so I don't think you will care now. Maybe in version 9.

Quote:I take no side. But introducing and starting controversy is well within the bounds of the objectives of this guide.

Well, you did take a side in your guide. Just saying that while you can start any controversies you want, do you want abortion to be the one in a guide about tulpas?

Quote:Found another problem with co-fronting. The term co-conscious fits in there somehow. Next revision will consequently clean some of that stuff up. However, no, possession is strictly about body control. Always has been.

Possession is and has been, yes. However, co-fronting is not a possession term. It's not even a .info term but comes from outside, from other communities with head people. They lacked a term for possession, in turn.

Co-conscious does sound a lot better here.

Tewi Wrote:I have almost no idea what "being primary" means by the way. You probably explained it in the guide, but I'm just saying, I don't know what it means.

Best I've been able to figure it out, it seems that the writer of this guide believes that there is a primary thinker in every body and there can only be one of them at a time (at least that is what I get from the implication of "primary", used to be "dominant" in earlier versions), with others being, well, lesser. Except when they're not. Or something. I objected because this is not how it always goes and if it does happen, it's not a desirable state to be in and the people affected should work towards a healthier, more equal way of living. That is what I feel is lacking from the term/explanation, right now it implies to me that this is something that will happen and there is no way out of it.

I dunno what Tulpa really means, but this is what I have been able to figure out from our many conversations, and I could be completely off. In a similar vein, I also haven't been able to figure out their definition of this "the subconscious".

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)