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Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett

Mrch, that's the data which is good, but sometimes it seems this thread they only want pics.

Since I am the OP and I asked the question....Look at the title to the thread..."Products like" I don't know or care at the moment who's product is best. I came back to beekeeping last year from being out of it for over 20 years...20 years ago I never fed a pollen substitute, I never had a nuc. I split hives and they raise a queen and did fine. I have some now that are a little slow and I was just curious to see it this "TYPE" of product works. If you say your product works to aid in brood rearing in the fall as I asked, then Great! If Lauri says the product that she uses works, then that is Great too!
This thread was not made to start a war, but I make no apologies, it does answer my question even though you tried to go through some round about back door to say that this"type" product works. You simply could have said "Yes, these product do work but I like XYZ brand better than Mann Lake", then you could have posted your reasons, and you would not have looked like a villain or a politician, or bonehead, or whatever else anyone thinks of you.

My question has been answers and could have been answered without all of the grade school drama of people trying to sound like something they are not.

"You have to put down the ducky if you wanna play the Saxophone!" Mr .Hoot

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

Originally Posted by Goldprospector

then you could have posted your reasons, and you would not have looked like a villain or a politician, or bonehead, or whatever else anyone thinks of you..

GP, I tryed, I try to get the folks to look up Trytophan in ultra bee, they ML list every one in a side by side comparison with DeGroot in there own cataloge but DO NOT LIST Tryptophan, then I went to Randy Olivers site and show them how pollen sub protein is calculated by ratio of Tryptophan.If you do not know the level of Tryptophan you are flying blind. I give up.

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett

Couldn't bee futher from the truth, what i've been tring to do is educate some here on what to look for in a sub, like the value of Tryptophan, but once again it went nowhere. As far as selling sub we are swamed at the moment. We are ONLY shipping in semi load lot at this time.Best of luck to all.

if your trying to educate then educate you would do a lot better not to criticize.

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

I know there's a shirt in this somewhere! Keith, bus, sub, secret ingredients . . . How many should I order on the first run?

"I think the problem we all have with Keith's posts is that he is selling the product he is promoting-which creates a conflict of interest."

I know this is often how it looks on the surface, but it just ain't so. If anyone of you were to spend time actually talking to Keith about this topic, you would have a very different understanding. Look, he often gives you information to consider for making sub. See http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...905#post983905http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...926#post983926
and other older threads. Keith wants you to do your homework and has said all the information is out there, as Mbeck also mentioned. I would suggest to anyone who feels they are not getting straight answers from Keith, call him. He'll talk to you till it's bedtime!

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

Goldprospector,

The short answer to your question is yes, feeding syrup and sub will help stimulate brood rearing. Do your bees need it is a good question too. The honey bee colony functions as a “unit” in terms of a living organism. Most subs will work fine for short periods of time, especially in most hobbyist situations where there is relatively little competition for resources and short breaks between natural pollen availability. If a sub is just a little short on a nutrient it simply limits the efficiency of the sub, but for most hobbyists what’s a few extra cents or dollars lost? If the deficiency in the sub is more critical, it takes weeks to deplete the resources of the colony “unit”.

Large scale commercial beekeeping is a whole other situation entirely. Bees are dependent on the beekeeper, so the diet better be right as it may be the only source of food or nutrients for a sustained period of time. Most diets are pretty good overall, but there is always room for improvement. There is plenty of new research and insight, which is why it boggles my mind when beekeepers cite DeGroot’s 1953 research. The next time you go to your doctor, please ask him or her to pull out their 1953 medical guide to determine the proper treatment for your visit today. 

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

That is true Joe, but surely you would agree that much of what we call "current" research is built upon that which is "old" and true? Is there really that major of shift away from that of DeGroot's findings? I think there needs to be a proper balance between the two, old and new.

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

Barry,

I certainly agree, new research builds on old. DeGroot’s work is meticulous, which is why it is so fascinating to read. Cutting edge, I am sure for the time. The biggest change I see from DeGroot’s work, which is also mirrored in other animal diets, is a shift in focus to managing “all” nutrients collectively. Degroot focused primarily on a small number of available protein sources and hinted at attempts with vitamins and minerals, but gave no measure of them. There are 6 commonly accepted nutrient groups, 30+ individual nutrients and protein is just part of the larger picture.

Beekeepers expect and demand so much from their bees today. In many ways, I think we are really pushing them to their limit.

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

It's true, what it boils down to is how complete and balanced the formula is/what length of time the bees will be relying on the feed.

Imbalances in feed for extended periods of time can cause serious health effects, specially if that product is the only source of feed. Without other sources to offset deficiencies or contaminates, you run the risk of overexposure / undernourishment issues.

For example, a feed commonly fed to horses is rice bran. In it's natural form, it has a calcium/phosphorous imbalance that over time can cause brittle bones and fracture. Stabilized rice bran had been altered to be nutritionally balanced to avoid this side effect.

Keith's referral to the amino acid 'Trytophane' is noted. But when I say your posts tell me nothing, I mean you kind of hint at this and hint at that without really giving any real information. Directing us to Randy's site and saying I should rethink my recipe is pretty vague. I have read most of Randy Olivers site. I'll have to go back and review it again. But I'm not sure I'll grasp the importaince of the point you are trying to make.

I try hard to be good at what I do. I like to do my research. But sometimes, just once in a while, I would just like a simple answer. Not have to search all over the Internet to figure it out.
Keith, you obviously don't like my recipe. Please just say what you don't like about it and how you would change it. I'd be interested in improvement if it is possible.

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett

GP, I tryed, I try to get the folks to look up Trytophan in ultra bee, they ML list every one in a side by side comparison with DeGroot in there own cataloge but DO NOT LIST Tryptophan, then I went to Randy Olivers site and show them how pollen sub protein is calculated by ratio of Tryptophan.If you do not know the level of Tryptophan you are flying blind. I give up.

I understand what you are trying to accomplish. I also understand that other people have had success with what they use. I really don't have a problem with educational lessons but I don't have a problem with the short answer and consensus either.
I appreciate the links, along with pictures. I feel like I understand that it does work, but I also understand that long term use needs to be more balanced.
Again, I am just trying to get a late nuc to build up quicker.

"You have to put down the ducky if you wanna play the Saxophone!" Mr .Hoot

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

for your protein patties am I correct in your recipe having both brewers yeast and the commercial product in the recipe? I tried making some in the kitchen...my mixer was not happy so off to get a paint mixing paddle Those patty pacs are they from a commercial supplier or where?
Thanks

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

If you are talking about mine, yes. I use to use 50% brewers yeast and 50% Bee Pro, but Mann lake changed suppiers of yeast and I don't like the new product. But if I use all BeePro, the patties turn rock hard. Some brewers yeast is necessary to get the right consistancy and reduce the amount of soybean flour in the mix.
The new yeast they carry doesn't look, smell or taste like brewers yeast. Too much of it in the recipe and the patties are gummy and runny, no matter how thick you make it. I'm not really sure what it is. I'd love to get a few 50# sacks of a better quality yeast.

Those patty packs are from a local retail restaurant supply called 'Cash & Carry'

Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

Originally Posted by Lauri

But when I say your posts tell me nothing, I mean you kind of hint at this and hint at that without really giving any real information. Directing us to Randy's site and saying I should rethink my recipe is pretty vague. .

Lauri, What I was/am trying to do is give you formula to run the numbers on your own mix. If you read the link of Randy's it talk about how to do that. What I was shooting for is for you to run the numbers on your own mix and you would find your low in a few things, then you would be able to search out some products to fill in the viods and have a much better balanced sub. You also would know how to run the numbers and nobody could pull the wool over your eyes. This thread has/is about ultra bee, so now when we look at the ML cataloge and we see the chart with Ultra bee & DeGoot we know the chart means nothing until we know the missing clue
Tryptophan. Hope you can understand where I was going with this.

The internet is also a wealth of information as many companies post their “spec sheets” online. For example, you can get a complete analysis for a given soy flour or yeast. Then you can calculate out the numbers for each nutrient. I like using natural pollen compositions as the starting point. Let’s use protein as a broad example. To calculate the protein content of a diet using a 50/50 blend of soy (53% protein) and yeast (45% protein).

If we make a 100 pound batch of dry feed and the soy and yeast make up 90 pounds or 90% of the dry feed (the other 10 pounds would be vitamins minerals, and oil):