If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Yes, and if Walsh had gotten Hill for 6 mil everyone would have said Walsh was Exec of the Year too. Hill wouldn't even have to have a great season to be worth 6 mil, but at 8 mil he has to have a super season to be worth it. "The true fact is that salary paid makes how good the player's play has to be in order to justify the contract."

OK, what is your point? Yeah obviously it would have been better to get him at $6 million, everyone knows that without you going on and on about it.

$2 million is the difference between not needing to have a great season, and needing to have a super season? At that standard only LeBron consistently lives up to his contract.

If you have some information from a credible source that says we didn't try to get him for cheaper than by all means present it. If all you are doing is speculating because you personally don't think he is worth $8 million, please stop talking about how we didn't try to get him for less.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

OK, what is your point? Yeah obviously it would have been better to get him at $6 million, everyone knows that without you going on and on about it.

$2 million is the difference between not needing to have a great season, and needing to have a super season? At that standard only LeBron consistently lives up to his contract. If you have some information from a credible source that says we didn't try to get him for cheaper than by all means present it. If all you are doing is speculating because you personally don't think he is worth $8 million, please stop talking about how we didn't try to get him for less.

I can see we have different opinions about my views. I put my views in a polite mannerly fashion w/o any gutteral verbage. If you don't agree, then fine. I don't always agree with your views, but I don't tell you to stiffle them. Nor do I appreciate you telling me to stop talking about the issue.

NO, I have no info, but then neither do you or others to the contrary, now do you? I have opinions the same as you. If my posts aren't to your liking and you deem them repetitive, might I suggest you put me on ignore, so you won't have to read my repetitive views. Please have a nice day.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

NO, I have no info, but then neither do you or others to the contrary, now do you?

No, but I am not making accusations either. That is the difference. I am not going around acting like I have some kind of idea of how it went down. All I know is that we signed Hill for a flat $8 million a year(not abnormal for a starter of his quality), and so far he has lived up to his contract. That is all I know. You might think he hasn't, and you have the right to that opinion, I am not arguing against your opinion, that doesn't mean it is ok to go around making accusations about how the front office should have done it when you have no idea how it actually happened. You are just creating baseless rumors.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

I agree that $854,389 are peanuts. But that was not the risk involved. The risk involved was not having a b/u 5 in case Blatche didn't pan out.

I would argue the risk was primarily PR. The Pacers still have a fragile fanbase who is just beginning to show interest in the team again. If Blatche comes in and has another major off the court issue, that could easily contaminate the entire team for the fans. I know they were willing to take that risk with Lance, but he didn't have quite as long of a history of incidents as Blatche does. Also, there was more upside with Lance since they had him cheaply for four years if he worked out.

The Following User Says Thank You to Cubs231721 For This Useful Post:

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

While the Pacers may be over paying George Hill , his contract does not increase each season which is a plus.

Thats the key reason why Roy Hibbert's contract is the Pacers bad contract. Unlike Hill's , Hibbert's contract goes higher and higher each season. He was rewarded with a new contract with a 1st year raise in excess of 10 million dollar , with future increses to 14.3, 14.9 and 15.5 mil a season.

While George Hill has increased his productivity , thru a 5th of the season Roy has become an even more inconsistant player than at any time since his rookie season. People talk oh he just posted a triple double - yes he did his 11 rebounds were in large part to his own lousy shooting 3 of13 fga. His fg% has dropped from almost 50% to less than 39% even in his worse seasons JO on too many fade aways shot better. His ft% from 71% to 53% . Do you think the Blazers are wishing Walsh didn't resign Roy at the moment? More likely they sent him a Christmas card with a huge thank you .

The one plus is with looser calling of fouls he has increased his blocks per game from 2 to 3. Roy is a great guy but he has come no where near earning his money , not even earning what he was paid last season. At least in Hill's case you make a strong case he has been clutch late in games.

The Following User Says Thank You to diamonddave00 For This Useful Post:

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

I really don't see all the need for argument concerning how the Pacers and Hill arrived at 8M per year.

First off, it's not like the Pacers started with a 20M per year offer and worked there way DOWN to 8M per year. Duh. Isn't it far more likely that the Pacers, not wanting to be too confrontational, started at some offer and worked their way UP to 8M per year? Of course it is.

I doubt this negotiation was very formal in nature at all. I'm sure a lot of it was verbal until the Pacers either offered a number or agreed to a number that both parties could easily sign off on. Again, I think that they wanted the negotiations to remain amicable and did not want to risk confrontation at all. It was probably a pretty simple negotiation for both sides.

Does it really matter how they got there? The fact is, that they are at 8M per year. Whether you think that is too much is a different story.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

I really don't see all the need for argument concerning how the Pacers and Hill arrived at 8M per year.

First off, it's not like the Pacers started with a 20M per year offer and worked there way DOWN to 8M per year. Duh. Isn't it far more likely that the Pacers, not wanting to be too confrontational, started at some offer and worked their way UP to 8M per year? Of course it is.

I doubt this negotiation was very formal in nature at all. I'm sure a lot of it was verbal until the Pacers either offered a number or agreed to a number that both parties could easily sign off on. Again, I think that they wanted the negotiations to remain amicable and did not want to risk confrontation at all. It was probably a pretty simple negotiation for both sides.

Does it really matter how they got there? The fact is, that they are at 8M per year. Whether you think that is too much is a different story.

Ist let me say in the 4 years I've been associated with PD you are one of my favorite posters. I might add I wish you posted more!

Now to your post which has merit. I have neogiated business deals most of my life, and I absolutely can't stand to leave money on the table b/c of poor neogoiating. My main issue is that Walsh was bidding against himself, since Hill's agent never tendered an offer sheet. People can say other teams had interest in Hill all day long, but there was never an offer sheet. An offer sheet says someone is truly interested and not just speculation that other teams were interested. W/o an offer sheet Walsh was bidding against himself. This just grinds my gears.

Yes, I feel Hill is overpaid. IF the Pacers could have saved 2 mil on Hill it was 2 mil more Walsh could have spent on better upgrading the bench. The same can be said concerning Hibbert's overpaid contract.

I fully realize BIG men get paid more, and that Hibbert would get paid well. But why overpay? After Portland pulled out of the bidding, who was left that had the money and need? Both J McGee and D Jordan signed contracts that pay them 10 mil this year. Jordan is averaging 10/7 per game and McGee is 10/6. Personally, I feel they both are overpaid for those numbers. Where as DWest is an absolute bargain this year at 10 mil!

I will admit some of my being upset with what I feel are overpaid contracts and poor contracts is, b/c I NEVER wanted Walsh back. I had NO confidence in Walsh being able to do the job properly. So far he's justified my belief. Walsh was the reason Chris Mullins got Exec of the Year for pawning Dunleavy and Murphy's albatross contracts off on the Pacers. I really wish I didn't feel as harshly about Walsh as I do, but he's done nothing to change my mind about him.

I will end by saying I hope both Hill and Hibbert's play justify their contracts. I never mind having to say I'm wrong or having to eat crow when I'm wrong.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

I fully realize BIG men get paid more, and that Hibbert would get paid well. But why overpay? After Portland pulled out of the bidding, who was left that had the money and need?

But Portland pulled out because the Pacers announced they would match the offer. Is it your position that once Portland pulled out the Pacers should have said, "Ha ha fooled you here's a non-matching offer"?

That seems wrong on so many levels as well as meaning Portland could have just gone ahead and come right back with their offer sheet.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

But Portland pulled out because the Pacers announced they would match the offer. Is it your position that once Portland pulled out the Pacers should have said, "Ha ha fooled you here's a non-matching offer"?

That seems wrong on so many levels as well as meaning Portland could have just gone ahead and come right back with their offer sheet.

IIRC, Portland had to re-sign their own FA Batum. They were considering signing BRoy as well. The Pacers were leaning towards matching the Portland's offer sheet. Once an offer sheet has been signed it puts a hold on Portlands cap space. Portland decided to not sign Hibbert and re-signed Batum. Once Portland was out of the picture, who did Walsh have to bid against?

Once Portland re-signed Batum they couldn't make another offer sheet to Hibbert. Pacers in drivers seat. BB is 1st and foremost a business. It's not a business for the faint of heart. Was there ever anything concrete from the Pacers to Hibbert saying they would match Portland's offer?

Hibbert and agent knew the Pacers were going to sign Hibbert to a contract. The point is the Pacers were in the drivers seat once Portland backed out. Walsh was bidding against himself again.

I have to give Walsh credit when credit is due, he only gave Hibbert a 4 year contract instead of a 5 year contract. The contract is bad enough now, but a 5 year contract would have been an absolute financial disaster for the Pacers for years to come.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

IIRC, Portland had to re-sign their own FA Batum. They were considering signing BRoy as well. The Pacers were leaning towards matching the Portland's offer sheet. Once an offer sheet has been signed it puts a hold on Portlands cap space. Portland decided to not sign Hibbert and re-signed Batum. Once Portland was out of the picture, who did Walsh have to bid against?

You can't do this. Once you promise to match an offer sheet there's no taking it back, unless you never want to sign another free agent again.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

I would argue the risk was primarily PR. The Pacers still have a fragile fanbase who is just beginning to show interest in the team again. If Blatche comes in and has another major off the court issue, that could easily contaminate the entire team for the fans. I know they were willing to take that risk with Lance, but he didn't have quite as long of a history of incidents as Blatche does. Also, there was more upside with Lance since they had him cheaply for four years if he worked out.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

But Portland pulled out because the Pacers announced they would match the offer. Is it your position that once Portland pulled out the Pacers should have said, "Ha ha fooled you here's a non-matching offer"?

That seems wrong on so many levels as well as meaning Portland could have just gone ahead and come right back with their offer sheet.

Who was the player that agreed to re-sign with Cleveland then signed with Utah for more money? Just the opposite I know, but no team after that refused to sign him over doing it. Verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they are written on.(Yogi Berra?)

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

IIRC, Portland had to re-sign their own FA Batum. They were considering signing BRoy as well. The Pacers were leaning towards matching the Portland's offer sheet. Once an offer sheet has been signed it puts a hold on Portlands cap space. Portland decided to not sign Hibbert and re-signed Batum. Once Portland was out of the picture, who did Walsh have to bid against?

Once Portland re-signed Batum they couldn't make another offer sheet to Hibbert. Pacers in drivers seat. BB is 1st and foremost a business. It's not a business for the faint of heart. Was there ever anything concrete from the Pacers to Hibbert saying they would match Portland's offer?

Hibbert and agent knew the Pacers were going to sign Hibbert to a contract. The point is the Pacers were in the drivers seat once Portland backed out. Walsh was bidding against himself again.

I have to give Walsh credit when credit is due, he only gave Hibbert a 4 year contract instead of a 5 year contract. The contract is bad enough now, but a 5 year contract would have been an absolute financial disaster for the Pacers for years to come.

The Pacers called Hibbert to tell them they were going to match. They almost certainly didn't put it in writing because they needed Hibbert to wait to sign his contract to use the extra cap space. If they put an intention to sign him to a contract in writing, they would have risked running afoul of the NBA's rule about abusing the cap.

Portland still had money to spend after Batum signed. They just didn't have the potential to offer the max anymore. IIRC, they were only a couple of million off from being able to afford both. Dallas to name another example also had cap space available after missing out on Williams. Plus, Hibbert's an emotional guy. If the Pacers suddenly pulled the rug out from him and withdrew the offer after promising him they would match, don't you think Hibbert likely bolts for one of those teams even if it ends up being slightly less money?

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

The Pacers called Hibbert to tell them they were going to match. They almost certainly didn't put it in writing because they needed Hibbert to wait to sign his contract to use the extra cap space. If they put an intention to sign him to a contract in writing, they would have risked running afoul of the NBA's rule about abusing the cap.

Portland still had money to spend after Batum signed. They just didn't have the potential to offer the max anymore. IIRC, they were only a couple of million off from being able to afford both. Dallas to name another example also had cap space available after missing out on Williams. Plus, Hibbert's an emotional guy. If the Pacers suddenly pulled the rug out from him and withdrew the offer after promising him they would match, don't you think Hibbert likely bolts for one of those teams even if it ends up being slightly less money?

I never liked the fact Hibbert was bolting the Pacers for Portland for more money in the 1st place. The Pacers drafted him and invested 4 years in him to only be slapped in the face b/c Hibbert wanted the BIG BUCKS and didn't care who paid them. This is a reason after Portland was out of the picture I'd never have matched Portland's offer. He'd have signed somewhere in the D Jordan and J McGee money range. If he was unhappy with the offer, S&T his rear to another team.

As far as Dallas goes, I don't see Cuban spending the money this past off season. I'm sure Portland and whoever else aren't sad they didn't sign Mr. Fragibility to the contract Hibbert got from the Pacers. Portland's FO has to be smiling over their loss of Hibbert.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Who was the player that agreed to re-sign with Cleveland then signed with Utah for more money? Just the opposite I know, but no team after that refused to sign him over doing it. Verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they are written on.(Yogi Berra?)

That was Boozer.

"It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Didn't Portland rescind Hibbert's offer sheet? Isn't that a sign of bad faith and business? They made the offer 1st, so shouldn't they have to stick with their offer sheet?

No.

Portland did not rescind their offer. They had every intention of making the max offer. In fact, Hibbert was preparing to go to Portland to sign the sheet, when he was told that he'd be signing the same deal with the Pacers. The Pacers interceded and agreed to sign Hibbert to the same terms offered by Portland. Then, as a courtesy, the Pacers and Hibbert's agent notified Portland, so they would not have to go through the exercise of the offer sheet and the cap hold associated with it.

I never liked the fact Hibbert was bolting the Pacers for Portland for more money in the 1st place. The Pacers drafted him and invested 4 years in him to only be slapped in the face b/c Hibbert wanted the BIG BUCKS and didn't care who paid them.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

I never liked the fact Hibbert was bolting the Pacers for Portland for more money in the 1st place. The Pacers drafted him and invested 4 years in him to only be slapped in the face b/c Hibbert wanted the BIG BUCKS and didn't care who paid them. This is a reason after Portland was out of the picture I'd never have matched Portland's offer. He'd have signed somewhere in the D Jordan and J McGee money range. If he was unhappy with the offer, S&T his rear to another team.

As far as Dallas goes, I don't see Cuban spending the money this past off season. I'm sure Portland and whoever else aren't sad they didn't sign Mr. Fragibility to the contract Hibbert got from the Pacers. Portland's FO has to be smiling over their loss of Hibbert.

This may be the worst post I have ever seen on PD. If you think you can build a team by making bad faith moves like you describe try it and see how it works. Stars don't want to come here now but if they follow your suggestions, no player would want to come to the Pacers. Hibbert was a free agent and he had every right to sign with Portland or any other team that would pay him the most money. He didn't owe the Pacers a damn thing. That is what free agency is all about.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

I never liked the fact Hibbert was bolting the Pacers for Portland for more money in the 1st place. The Pacers drafted him and invested 4 years in him to only be slapped in the face b/c Hibbert wanted the BIG BUCKS and didn't care who paid them. This is a reason after Portland was out of the picture I'd never have matched Portland's offer. He'd have signed somewhere in the D Jordan and J McGee money range. If he was unhappy with the offer, S&T his rear to another team.

As far as Dallas goes, I don't see Cuban spending the money this past off season. I'm sure Portland and whoever else aren't sad they didn't sign Mr. Fragibility to the contract Hibbert got from the Pacers. Portland's FO has to be smiling over their loss of Hibbert.

Just like within any profession, professional athletes have the right to maximize how much money they are to be paid. If a team wants to offer him big money, why does he need to turn it down? Because the Pacers drafted and developed him? Unfortunately, that's NOT how it works. Yes the Pacers drafted and developed him, but that's the organizations job--to draft good players and put them in the best possible position to develop and succeed. Had the Pacers not drafted him, another team would have, and would have done the same thing--did everything they could top help him succeed.

You can argue that the Pacers could have went another route as opposed to re-signing Hibbert for a big money contract, but don't get angry at Roy because he maximized his earnings. He didn't MAKE the Pacers pay him. We made that decision as an organization. That's not on Roy.

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ace E.Anderson For This Useful Post:

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

I liked what Jerry Reynolds said about Hibbert during the Kings' broadcast last night. "He's still 7'2", he hasn't shrunk and the FG% will come around."

If there was something Donnie did that I didn't like -- I don't like the Gerald Greene contract - its too much like Dhantay Jones' that we finally got rid of. It will be bad news next summer if we have difficulty resigning West because we could use another million or two from the Greene contract.

Paying Hibbert, a legit 7'2" C that type of money to be our second or third option seems like the right math and economics to me.

Paying $18 million this year to West and Hill to be our two go-to guys in the fourth quarter is pretty good cap management, IMO.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you