Interview with Gino Antognozzi

Introduction

The transcript of an interview with Gino Antognozzi that makes up this post is courtesy of Gino’s nephew Alfredo. The interview comes to me by way of Anne Copley, who translated the transcript from Italian into English.

Last summer Anne located the family of Sydney Harold Swingler, known to Gino’s family only as “Antonio” when they sheltered him during the war, and put the two families in contact with each other.

“Why Antonio didn’t write a letter, a postcard?” he asked. “I thought he had been killed in war, and he could not go back to England.”

Before reading the interview, it will be helpful to review some details about Gino’s family and to read a synopsis of the story:

Gino’s father Quartino and mother Maria had three children: Gino, born January 12, 1926; Augusto, born in 1928 and died in 1937 at the age of nine; and Ermelinda, born in 1929 and still living.

Quartino died in January 1934, when Gino was eight years old.

In 1958, Gino married Annunziata Antolini (in Antognozzi). They have no children.

Gino farmed a piece of land that he owned, and he let another piece of his land be cultivated by another family of farmers. Later, Gino worked as a plumber, and Annunziata as a school janitor.

Four or five days after the prison breakout at Camp 59 in Servigliano—on September 14, 1943—Gino and his family were approached at their home by three Englishmen who said that their names were “Antonio,” “Gimino,” and “George.” With gestures, while talking in English, they indicated they needed food and shelter.

Gino’s family kept “Antonio” for a few weeks. He slept in Gino’s room. The other two were taken into Pioppis’ house (owned by Romolo Antognozzi, Alfredo’s grandfather), but there they were kept in the stable, because farmer Pioppi’s family was very large.

In the weeks after the Armistice, the Germans took full control of the territory. They conducted inspections along the road systems and raids into private houses to capture the escaped Allied soldiers.

When fascists and Germans found escaped POWs in some of the houses, those houses were burned down. In order to protect his family, Gino, then 17 years old, dug a cave-shelter for the men in a steep slope in his family’s woods. In this shelter the three English soldiers slept on straw and blankets. During the winter, following heavy rains, the cave collapsed and the three soldiers, wet and muddy, took refuge in the cattle stable at the Pioppis’ farm. They slept in the stable for several weeks while Gino dug a second, more secure, cave where they hid and slept until July 1944.

During the day the three Englishmen hid in the woods, but during the nights they often travelled through the territory around Montelparo in order to connect with fellow escapees. During these night excursions they were able to collect a few packs of cigarettes and also some books. Gino wanted to know how they got the books, but they answered in English, which Gino could not understand!

The families of Gino Antognozzi and Dante Antognozzi, and the family at the Pioppis’ farm each day in turn provided the men with two or three meals.

“Antonio,” in mixed Anglo-Italian, told Gino they were volunteer soldiers fighting against fascism and Nazism, because England had to remain free. The three Englishmen never revealed their identities to Gino. “Antonio” told Gino that if the fascists questioned him, he would then not be able to give details about them.

Gino tells how one day he went down in the woods to bring lunch to the escapees and saw that “Antonio” had a gun. The previous night, the three, along with other prisoners, had gone to the house of the fascist Roscioli—who was the one chasing them—to kidnap or kill him. But that night the Roscioli was not at home. The distance of the refuge-cave from the house of Roscioli was only about 3 km.

Gino wanted to know who had given them the gun, but they didn’t tell him. Gino felt they were probably in contact with a local partisan.

The three also took part in the attack and the opening of a fascist store in Montelparo, where wheat was seized by the partisans, and they helped with distribution of the grain to needy families.

During the months spent in the cave-shelter, “Gimino” was restless and questioned obsessively why the British army did not arrive. Then, one day in June, “Gimino” left his two companions and walked southward to meet with the Allied forces.

Gino told Alfredo he has a clear memory of the journey “Antonio” and “George” made the following month from Montelparo to Ascoli Piceno, the day the two soldiers returned to the Eighth Army.

On the day of departure, July 9, 1944, Gino and his mother dressed “Antonio” in Gino’s shirt, pants, jacket, and shoes. The two English soldiers were accompanied on foot by Gino, his cousin Dante Antognozzi, and the farmer Pioppi. Once in Ascoli Piceno, the two men went into a barracks and then came out a few hours later.

Soon after, “Antonio,” “George,” Gino, Dante, and Pioppi were taken in a military vehicle that was in a small column of English vehicles bound for Macerata. At the half-way point of Comunanza, the Italians got off and returned to Montelparo on foot. “Antonio” and “George” continued on with the British.

As they parted, “Antonio” told Gino that he had lost everything fleeing from the prison camp and had only a photo of his dear sister Doris, a London actress, to give him as a momento. Gino gave Antonio a picture of himself, his address written on the back of it.

Gino, at the end of the forest, shows where he dug out a cave as a hiding place for “Antonio.”

On July 24th 2014, Alfredo visited Gino in Montelparo. Despite Gino’s age, they were able to explore the dense woods in search of the second cave Gino had dug for the prisoners during the war. As with the first shelter Gino created, a landslide had caused the collapse of this second cave and wild vegetation now grew over it.

An Overview—Alfredo Antognozzi

Note: The text of the overview and the interview itself alternate between Italian and Anne’s translation into English, along with an occasional comment or clarification. Times when the conversation isn’t clear enough on the tape for transcription are note.

Claudia Antognozzi, Alfredo’s daughter [who benefited from an Monte San Martino Trust grant, sending Mr. Killby a copy of the “Alexander Certificate” and a photo of the sister Doris [an actress] of the volunteer soldier from London, Mr. “Antonio” Sydney Swingler]

A note from Anne on Italian names: Often the surname is put before the Christian name, hence Antognozzi Gino. Women do not take their husbands’ names on marriage, so Annunziata still uses her maiden name of Antolini but then adds “in Antognozzi” in recognition of her marriage to Gino. To add to the confusion for a foreigner, nearly all families will also have a local nickname, which attaches to the house where the family resided. The family could have included a very extended set of relations all in the same house. I’m guessing that Sirve is the nickname for the Antolini family!

The recording begins in the middle of the conversation, as the recorder didn’t work from the very beginning. The purpose of the conversation is the arrival and time spent by several prisoners escaped from Camp 59 Servigliano and Camp 53 Sforzacosta in September 1943.

This improvised conversation was recorded by me, Antognozzi Alfredo, father of Claudia, today 25 April 1996 at around 3 p.m. at the house of my uncle Antognozzi Gino, called “Ginetto,” at Montelparo.

It is all, by necessity, in the Montelparese language – really in the Motelparese vernacular. [Actually, Alfredo transcribed the interview first in the Montelparese dialect, and then into formal Italian. For a broader audience, what is included in this post is the formal Italian version.]

One of the three soldiers were hosted in my grandfather Romolo’s property, managed by the sharecropper Pioppi, who is mentioned many times in this recording by my uncle Ginetto.

Besides that, my mother, Vincenza, many times prepared food and supper for the displaced English in Contrada San Maria [and] she hosted them at her house. On the evening he was killed, the officer or sergeant with the glasses [whom we now know to be the Scotsman Sidney Seymour Smith], she had already cooked for them. But in fact she waited in vain!

I have tried to capture all this through the eyes of Ginetto, just seventeen years old, who had lost his father at a tender age.

What I was able to pick up constantly in this – at times long-winded – conversation was a sense of “disappointment,” I would even say “bewilderment,” at his not having any news of Antonio, especially, but also of the two other British citizens.

He has kept a photo [of Doris] that he is giving to Claudia so she can take it to London. [Claudia did go to London and took the photo of Doris with her when she went to see Keith Killby during her Monte San Martino Trust bursary studies.]

In a touching passage Gino used the expression “We were like brothers” or “We slept together.” Gino didn’t say this to me, but I had the feeling that he had hoped to have had some news.

An order arrived to go to Pedaso or San Benedetto del Tronto to board a boat; then a counter-order arrived that it was no longer possible to board, and they stayed with the families. A counter-order and they settled down with the families, in the countryside.

Until June, until the Allies and the Front passed by, the Front moved from Pescara [Sangro]. The territory was liberated and they were repatriated June–July. Some held on for 7-8-10 days. Some left straight away. Some after a fortnight. And I with … we accompanied them to Ascoli. But one [prisoner known as Gimino] disappeared, for example, and without saying goodbye to anyone! Because he was really fed up, in these last months. But, he didn’t even say goodbye to his companions!

Around Montelparo how many [prisoners] were there? Were they staying in the country? Were they staying in the village? [I’ve translated paese as town or village throughout. It’s always referring to Montelparo.]

At Montelparo, three prisoners, stayed with us. Put [referring to Alfredo] a sentence like this … put here “My uncle”. Others [prisoners] about seven or eight, stayed at the “Sirvè” house [his wife Annunziata’s house] another three or four, stayed at the Fargo house [house near Gino’s land]; there was one [prisoner] who was killed, here [he means “nearby”] in Contrada S Maria. This was “Giorgio”, Sidney Seymour Smith, who “Antonio” and the others must have known quite well.

In that regard, I would like to tell you this. Vincenza Antognozzi told her grandaughter [Claudia, Alfredo’s daughter] that many of these 13 prisoners who stayed in Contrada Santa Maria, there in the caves, for many evenings they came to eat at our house. Vincenza prepared food for them to eat. Amongst these prisoners was the famous John, 1.8 metres tall, blond, who after the liberation left with that girl from Montelparo! And that evening they didn’t come to supper because one of these [prisoners], following a tip-off, was captured and killed. Who is this [prisoner]?

To know his name you could go to the house of Ferretta [who sheltered the prisoner]. The cross is still there. Lately they have widened the road. The cross is down there [going towards the church of Santa Maria, the cross is on the right, just under the road.] I don’t know if they’ve kept it in place or not … Then [this prisoner who was shot], he was buried in the cemetery in Montelparo. [The cross Gino referred to is still there. In May 2014, MSMT and ELMS unveiled a memorial plaque nearby.

ALFREDO: Ah, sì? Allora è tutto registrato. Chi fu a fare la spia?

Oh yes? Now it’s all recorded. Who was it who gave the tip-off?

GINO: Non si sa!

Who knows!

ALFREDO: Dai [suvvia], che tu lo sai!

Come on, you know! [Gino is reluctant to name names, but a notorious fascist in the district was Roscioli, sentenced to 30 years after the war, but let out under a general amnesty after only a few years inside. It’s still a sensitive subject since relatives still live in the area. Gino overcomes his reluctance later on.]

This guy who was killed, he brought it on himself. Because he was identified as a commander. Understand? One of the leaders. He might have been a graduate? Or a colonel? Captain? If he was one … then he was wanted by them [fascists]. Understand?

No, let’s say that he was secretive. However, perhaps he was their commander [of the prisoners] of these [prisoners]? … Lieutenant or captain. This prisoner stayed down there at Ferretta. I saw him down there at Ferretta and I recognised him in Montelparo after a bit. However [this prisoner] used to go down past my house [to the farm near Gino’s house] because I was living in the countryside. There, I had a little vineyard, and I saw how he used to sit down in the middle of the fields, actually sitting there [near the vineyard]. He had a few books and he stayed there by himself, with his glasses and “compagnia vèlla” [a figure of speech, no meaning] and he wrote. I don’t know, maybe he was writing a diary, and he stayed and wrote … and “compagnia vèlla”.

Ehhhh, … who knows … always Roscioli with the fascists. Eehh … eeh … Who was there, now no one knows. Because they went down [to the house of Ferretta] without military uniforms, they were wearing civilian clothes, even though they were military! Because, after what did they do? They went down to Ferretta, this band of fascists, they went down. Mahhhh, they were real performers. Because they [a member of the team of fascists and Germans] spoke English, they presented themselves down [at the house of Ferretta] as prisoners; with a trick. They pretended they were prisoners; and then speaking outside in front of the house in English and “compagnia vèlla” whoever was inside the house, hearing English spoken, came out, him as well. Then they went to get a beer. There was an interpreter who could speak English amongst the fascists. On finding this out, [the prisoner] with a bottle in his hand given to him to drink … gave it to him in the head!!! And that was his mistake. No …?

Because there wasn’t three, four, five who had gone there … [there were only two, in front of the house] … They had gone there, one, two … They said [to the prisoner from Ferretta] that they were two prisoners … They were hidden, one here and another there … Because in front of the house … [inaudible] … they surrounded him … Given that they’d presented as an Englishman, he came out and began to talk with them … Then, what happened? What … [the prisoner] noticed it … and then he thought: “Now I give him a blow on the head, or with a knife.” He had decided! Understand? Then those others came out [“Tippe and stages” so to speak = to continue] … he was handcuffed and taken away. They arrived there, above Santa Maria, along the way, he was shot … and they killed him.

He was a Londoner, yes … His sister. He even gave me a photo. It’s still here, inside [a drawer]. It’s a photo and [Antonio] told me that she was an actress. She worked in the cinema … he told me that he was a volunteer [presumably rather than a conscript] … all of them were volunteers … [As if Gino was asking them] “Why are you volunteers?” … “Antonio, why are you all volunteers?” [Then, as if Antonio was responding,] “Because we English, to live well. If we lose the war, then afterwards we will be under the dominion of the Nazis.”

I saw him in Montelparo. Many times … [Gino, even on Sunday, went into the countryside, and his companions told him that they’d seen the prisoner going for a wander.] This prisoner stayed down at Ferretta. Then, it was he who was killed.

Now, to tell you a story … the prisoners who stayed with me … mahhh what a long story this is! … Ok, up till November–December, they stayed always in the countryside, because I lived near a road with some traffic – always fascists in cars because there were absolutely no civilian cars. And then … What do you think, didn’t Roscioli stop at our house?!! He bought grapes, wine; he asked my mother if there were any prisoners around. “They passed by. But they’ve gone away”, my mother answered. Then afterwards the fascists, every now and then, when they could know where the prisoners were, bit by bit they captured them. Understand?! And took them away. Even I went to sleep on a straw mattress for fear because the fascists, if they found prisoners in your house, took you away. It was also dangerous, because they took away those who sheltered the prisoners as well. On top of it all, I was coming up to military age; I had to go into the military and take up arms when I was 18 years old.

Our sharecropper. [Until land reforms after the Second World War, a feudal system of “mezzadria” still operated in the Italian countryside. A landlord would own properties and land on which the contadino, or sharecropper, worked. Half of everything the contadino produced had to be given to the landlord. Landlords could range from the aristocracy with huge estates to much more local arrangements.]

Ohhh, well these three. At my house, every now and then, one heard some automobile and then it was necessary to stay always on the alert. Understand? One slept little; every now and then [the prisoners] returned again to my house, then towards the end they went to sleep down at Menzafroscia, Pioppi’s house. However, to eat … Now I want to tell you this … dopo … OK you can put this: “Uncle dug in the countryside, me, alone, me Ginetto, a cave [grotto] under a “jemete” 10 metres high”. Now how to explain “jemete” … under a vertical wall of tufo … he dug out a cave with an entrance of 50 cms, small … and there, inside, three metres long. I took inside some straw and matresses … and they stayed there inside … and we took them food to this cave; taking it in turns, one day each.

And then Quintilio Antognozzi … And, sometimes someone cooked during the day. Then, they came to eat inside our house when it was quiet. There was always a bit of fear; if you heard a car … you ran away quickly. Whilst the Allies had not arrived, they always stayed in this cave. However, before this cave, I had also dug another. Let me tell you … it was a “jemete” a couple of metres high … It rained eight days without stopping, rain, rain … earth started to fall from the roof of the cave. Porca madonna! [Lots of Italian swearwords consist of putting “porca” [pig] in front of another word – in this case Madonna, which makes it quite a strong curse!] …

The ceiling of the cave collapsed. After a little, [the landslide] would have taken them all under, burying them. It was night when this occurred. They left, with rain beating down and they all went to the Menzafroscia house [Pioppi]. They went into the stables, opening the door and they stayed inside there until morning. In the morning [when the contadini got up to go and work in the stables], they found them in the stables all trembling and soaked through. They were saying “Cave collapsed”. And look, they never even called out for help! Even though they were soaked, they hadn’t called their friends … [incomprehensible] Afterwards I dug out another [cave], where I had my olives; there was tufo there [compacted sandstone, more secure]. They stayed there three, four months …

Five hundred metres from the houses, I dug out a hole, by myself … How can I describe it, like a “jemete”, a bank, a slope. One cave collapsed; the second has been covered up because the land above it was worked. However it’s still there underneath … They stayed there up until the arrival of the Allies …

Mahhh, let me tell you! During the night [these prisoners] what did they do? … I said to them: “During the night, don’t wander around.” The went there, near uncle Pippì’s house [Giuseppe]. They went on the road … e “compagnia vella.”

He had [Antonio] a book. “Who gave you this book?” I always begged him not to show it to anyone. Because then people, you know, talk one to another and spy … It was an atlas De Agostini [a well-known Italian publisher.] Antonio replied to me “Fofo de Zanzà gave it to me” [Rodolfo Angelini]. This chap lived in the countryside, near Uncle Pippì [Giuseppe Antognozzi] and he used to give him cigarettes … But I always told Antonio “Don’t show yourself” …

Nobody relaxed, during the night … But … this circumstance is beautiful; it would be nice to remember, however, it would need … Let’s go back a step … You have to let me finish the reasoning … In the area, everyone knew them, but … After they left, mamma reminded me, mahhh didn’t they actually go down to Roscioli’s house!!!

E’hhhh!! To Roscioli’s house, with another prisoner, another who afterwards was killed at Monsampietro Morico … They were also a bit … reckless and tried to kill Roscioli. Why … They said [to Gino]: “He bothers us” … After … some prisoners were captured, down in the river Aso, shot, and thrown under the bridge.

One day another prisoner came. He said “Let’s go, let’s go down to Roscioli’s” … Three, four, five of them went down. The others had a pistol and “compagnio vella” … If they had found him, they would have killed him.

Not straight away. They told me a bit later. “We went to Roscioli’s house”. They knew certain details and [they told me] “You know Gino, that they took three prisoners down to the bridge on the Aso; they took two prisoners at Communanza; they shot them on the bridge. They shot them, then threw them under the bridge”. Afterwards, down on the river Aso, a photographer from San Benedetto … named Baffoni … he took a photo. After the war Baffoni was denounced … he had to defend himself [probably at one of the trials that took place in the immediate post-war period] … Then afterward Roscioli came back.

ALFREDO: Gli è stato fatto il processo, ed è uscito … [amnistia].

He went to trial, and came out. [Roscioli was captured in Rome, put on trial and sentenced to 30 years, but was let out after a few years under a general amnesty.]

Fofo de Zanza [Rodolfo Angelini who lived near Uncle Pippì [Giuseppe Antognozzi] … when this territory was liberated by the Allies, hoooo, it was rumored that Roscioli was hidden in Montelparo. It was said that he was down [in the house of] Fofo de Zanza. Roscioli was a friend of Fofo, every so often he stayed in Sant’Elpidio. They played together, compagnia vella, but they were such good friends …

There were prisoners in Montelparo, heh, listen to this story it’s wonderful … After, when the silos were opened, for example at Montelparo, in the months of December or maybe January, the grain silos were opened by the prisoners together with the patriots, the partisans, and with John, Giogio, Antonio and Gimino. [In many places barns, etc., full of goods were kept locked for the use of the fascists and the Germans. It was quite common for the partisans to open up these barns so the general population could get to the wheat, etc., stored there.] They [the prisoners] also came here in the village; there was a lot of snow and German lorries couldn’t move about.

Ah … we housed him at our house in the early days. Then, as they were sought after by Roscioli, by the fascists gang … Since I lived close to the road, I thought that it was no longer possible to let him sleep in the house and keep him always close by. “I will bring you food” [Gino said to Antonio] … After, when he was in Pioppi’s, or at Quinti’s [Quintilius Antognozzi] I brought him food there, for example … Then, slowly, slowly we dug this cave.

Clothes … they we wearing these clothes [a uniform?] then after there was this [incomprehensible]. I had a hat, I had … in winter when they were in the cave … [It seems certain that Gino gave his hat to Antonio.]

It was cold, … but underneath [at the back of the cave] there was half a metre of straw. On top [of the straw] there was a matress with some covers: to cover themselves … Mahhh, there were fine, inside there. It was warm. It was a sunny spot [south-facing] situated to the right of Mario’s [Antognozzi] house. All exposed to the sun. In the morning, in that spot, you were really fine …

Now I don’t remember; I don’t remember the precise number of days. I worked seven, eight days. After, inside I made it so high like this [showing the height with his hands, … one, … a metre and a half … I made a beautiful, beautiful cave, heeeh, because those three, really, … the mattress, the straw down at the back …

Gimino?! That’s what you called him? … And so, these, they stayed in that place until the Allies arrived. The Germans came through here, the Montelparo area, at approximately the end of May, first days of June 1944. Am I wrong?

Imagine it, when the Germans came through, one evening, almost night, heeeh, you heard [a big noise] towards Monterinaldo. A German column of vehicles came through, but not armoured. It included guns, everything. But drawn by horses, and also … the oxen that they’d taken [sequestrated] from the contadini … and then when they couldn’t walk any more because they were lame, they left those [injured ones] and took another pair.

And then, that night had passed, late in the evening. I … I was at home and heard the noise of these horses on the road “tu – tu – tutun-“: And we were wondering. “What is it, what is it? “They were frightening. In fact, in front of my house [where there is a crossroads, street, intersection of three roads], one day, every now and then came a motorcycle. They [the Germans] made of signals … signals. There was a fork in the road, ohhhh … some [Germans] continued towards Monsanpietro Morico.

Imagine it! Heeh … he came inside our house. At that time we had ripe cherries. I was scared when he knocked on the door. “Damn!” … Do you know what happened … Because, heeeh … instead the German asked if he could have something to drink. He was a family man, a good man. He gave Linda, Delia, and me some sweets. Delia [Gino’s sister] was a little baby. And so, I went to get some wine from down in the cantina. When I came back up [the German] was eating cherries, right there [Gino indicates astonishment] … he left other sweets … this and that …

One day I was with the prisoners in the countryside, near the cave. I went back to the house to eat for a few minutes, and then to went back to the country. Because whilst the Germans were in retreat they could have got hold of me and made me go along with them [so Gino was keeping out of the way with the prisoners during this period]! … Imagine it … Mamma stayed at home, and this [German] commander with this motorbike arrived and said [to Gino’s mamma] “Signora, some eggs. Cook eggs.” Mamma said that she had some eggs. Mamma cooked them. Then [the German] took out his wallet and said: “How much should I give you?” He paid her [to mamma, leaving the coins on the table]. My mother replied “I don’t want anything, I don’t want anything, anything …” The German commander replied “I did not take the eggs!” … Imagine it for a moment … The Germans! No?! There were good ones and nasty ones! Heeeh, he left the money with her. He paid her!

He was accused of housing, at his own house, a fascist. In fact, this fascist, at that time in our area, was known as Roscioli. And this Angelini Rodolfo, that was him, they called him by the nickname “Fofo de Zanza”.

Because they’d given him a few to the head, to make him talk; because the partisans suspected that he knew where Roscioli was holed up. So they interrogated him, to find out where Roscioli was. Anyway, these three prisoners climbed up onto the lorry and got him down [Fofo, who was tied up]; and then and then argued with the partisans telling them that Fofo had helped them, he fed them, gave them cigarettes since …

Thanks to the intervention of these three prisoners: Antonio, Gimino, and Giorgio. [It couldn’t have been Giorgio if this happened after the liberation, since he was shot in March 1944. But I suppose this event could have taken place before the liberation.]

Later it was verified, for example, that in a little village near here, at Monsampietro Morico, when the Germans were retreating, some partisans, stupidly, … tried to be clever … they lurked under the embankment of a road with a small-calibre rifle … these poor Germans who were retreating … one soldier had a horse and was the last one who had remained behind … this hidden partisan shot him, he wounded him. However the wounded German rejoined his colleagues at Belmonte, he reached his comrades; and from Montegiorgio, where there were lots of Germans, they turned a gun on Monsampietro and fired three mortars.

Well, no, he didn’t leave two or three months before! He was fed up for two or three months … Fed up for a quite a long time … In the first four, five months, whenever I went to the cave, he was always saying “Pescara! … Pescara! …”

Speaking as if he was Gimino: “Pescara, … always Pescara, … always Pescara …” and otherwise “Fassineo [unintelligible] when are the Allies coming?!!” [so they could embark and return to England]. Gimino was a family man, he had a wife and children in England: Understand?! He was very worried about his family. And then the Front, it wasn’t moving. He kept on saying “Pescara, Pescara, Pescaraaaaaa …” [Gino beats the table rythmically and hard with his fists, to imitate Gimino’s gestures.]

They sent you a certificate of merit [on parchment] … signed with his own hand by Marshal Alexander, Commander Allied … hoèèè … laaa … this certificate Antognozzi Maria [born Tidei], which is your mother …

Ehh, so, they gave us this certificate and 30,000 lire, I think, in compensation. [There is some controversy about this since many of those protected by the Italians felt they got a raw deal. They were paid at a pre-war exchange rate and the money was in fact very little given the risks they had run. Part of the problem was that the Italians, having started as the enemy, were not to be treated in the same way as other countries.]

That, at that time, it was a decent figure … for a minimum of … for solidarity towards those [prisoners] … Ohhh … Tell me the story of these three prisoners who went to get a coffee at the home of a fascist? Snoriguzzi? No?…

I think that it was the same evening of the Fofo event [when he was captured by the partisans] [The three prisoners had said, with satisfaction, to Gino]: “We went to drink a coffe at Snoriguzzi’s house, who was a fascist!!” [However, they were already partisans!] [Maybe he means that the fascists were no longer a threat since the liberation had brought the partisans out of hiding.]

To remember, … fondly, in the hope that this story … But, no one showed up? And on the back [of the photo] there is a dedication: “Sempre ricordo me, Antonio. Salute? [with a question mark]”. Then in English, of which I only know a little … Read a bit Stefano [Alfredo’s son]. What does it mean? Read it well, mind, eh! What has Antonio written there?

Let me ask you this. Why did you do all this? Why did you help these, I don’t want to say prisoners, these English people, with a different language, who had come here to liberate Italy? You did it just like that, spontaneously, because you felt [inside yourself], or why, what can I say, because of a feeling? …

No … that’s not why, … because they were people who found themselves in a desparate situation [literally “in the middle of a street”]. Help came from practically everybody, to eat … Given that they stopped … I mean … WE BECAME ALMOST BROTHERS AFTER SEVEN-EIGHT MONTHS ALWAYS TOGETHER. NO?! There it is. Understand? [Gino’s voice, now hushed, gives a sense of loss and emotion for those memories.]

And other familes, like yours … [helped the prisoners] … Also your relative Sabbatini Vincenza in Antognozzi, who had a house here in the village … Other prisoners who stayed in Montelparo, going to eat in this big house with five floors, many times, … in fact Vincenza and also her husband Guerriero …

So, now we’ve described these three that you knew … But did you know others as well? In your wife’s house, for example, there were Americans [Canadians]? In “Sirvè’s” house [the house where Annunziata Antolini lived].

… ehh, when they opened the grain silos, no! In January, I believe, it was snowing, in January … he [Johnny] with the partisans opened the silos. He broke the door, in fact, not only him, but all of them together [also with the three who stayed with Gino].

He had all these prisoners [under his protection]. The prisoners deferred to him almost always, this John. Because he was coninuously going everywhere [in the village and the countryside]. Understand? The other prisoners always deferred to him.

And then afterwards there is, I think, this John who was going around everywhere. In addition, there was this very heroic family, if we can put it like that, the family Antodicola, … although it’s a small village, … still this family really risked their skin, yes? Taking into their house [hiding] an English prisoner, right in the centre of the village!!