1 <Day 25. 2(10.00 a.m.) 3< DR LONGERICH, recalled. 4< Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving? 6MR IRVING: May it please the court. My Lord, you requested 7yesterday that I should state my position on the 8Einsatzgruppen and I place before your Lordship a two-page 9summary of my position. I do not know whether your 10Lordship wishes to address it now? I gave a copy to 11Mr Rampton. If Mr Rampton wishes to address it now, then 12I would be perfectly happy to discuss with him. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is sensible to have a look at it 14now because it just could affect some of the 15cross-examination later today. (Pause for reading) I am 16bound to say that I think that differs very, very 17substantially from the position that you seem to have 18adopted in your cross-examination by Mr Rampton. 19MR IRVING: Does it? In which respect? 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: It seems to me that this is a rather partial 21acknowledgment of Hitler's knowledge and therefore 22responsibility for what went on in the Eastern 23territories. 24MR IRVING: Of course I did not mention the October 1943 25watershed, that is true. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry about that because you accepted

. P-2

1everything, as it were, after that. Mr Rampton? 2MR RAMPTON: I regard it as a fairly enormous step backwards. 3However, it does not trouble me in the very slightest, 4I have to say, because by a combination of the actual 5evidence of what was happening at the time and what 6Mr Irving said when first confronted with it, I am quite 7happy to leave that matter to be made by way of submission 8at the end of the case. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is right and it seemed to me 10that, when you were saying you might have to recall 11Browning and so on, I do not think that is right. 12MR RAMPTON: No, it was off the cuff and it was not meant 13interrorem, but it was a thought that occurred to me. 14I think actually, having regard to this, that this is so 15inconsistent, in my submission, with what was first said 16in cross-examination, that I am happy to leave it like 17that. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is a matter for comment later on. 19Mr Irving, that must be right. To the extent that there 20is a difference between the position you took in 21cross-examination and this document, then Mr Rampton 22obviously must be entitled to make whatever comment he 23thinks fit. 24MR IRVING: Or indeed to cross-examine me further on that 25document. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: He may want to do that, I do not know.

. P-3

1Probably not I guess. Anyway, I have that now. Again 2I think it is sensible to try to work out where it should 3go. I think probably it goes in -- this is really for the 4transcript so that everybody knows where it is -- 5MR IRVING: L, was it not? 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was thinking more, because in a way it is 7statement of your case, I wonder whether it belongs in C 8or, indeed, in the pleadings. I think that is right. I 9will tuck it behind your defence in bundle A. 10MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much for doing that anyway. 12When I say "defence", I mean, of course, reply, tab 4. 13Yes. Is there anything else before you resume? 14MR IRVING: No, I can begin cross-examination. 15< Dr Peter Longerich, Recalled16< Cross-examination by Mr Irving, continued.17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Dr Longerich, good morning. 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Good morning. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
We touched yesterday briefly on the existence in the 20Institut fur Zeitgeschichte of manuscripts written by Karl 21Wolff. You said that it was of a confidential nature and 22that it was not open for general research. I stated that 23in my discovery there had been extracts or a transcript of 24part of that. Can I ask you to look at the little bundle 25I just gave you? My Lord, this is on page 14 of the 26little bundle which is in sections.

. P-4

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this a manuscript? Manuscript, Karl 2Wolff, I see. 3MR IRVING: Yes. If you go to page 16, which is the last page 4in that little clip, you will see a handwritten version of 5it. That is the original German. Page 14 is the original 6German transcript. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
May I ask, is this your transcript? 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, that is my handwriting. 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
So I have to rely on Mr Irving's summary? 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, extracts. 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I have to say I am not happy with that because, as we 12experienced yesterday, Mr Irving tends to shorten 13documents and I do not agree with him on the principles in 14the way he shortens documents. I am not very happy to 15comment on his transcripts or excerpts from documents. 16I would like to see the original. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you look at line 6, you will see that I have put three 18dots, and line 7 I have three dots. 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but I have not seen the original, so I cannot ---- 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
You stated, of course, that you were not permitted to see 21the original because it was a confidential document. 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. Still I would like to see the original. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know what the problem is. Where is 24the original, Mr Irving? 25MR IRVING: It is in the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte in Munich. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: To which Mr Irving does not have access.

. P-5

1I take your point entirely, Dr Longerich, but shall we 2just see what the question is and see whether you can 3cope. If you do not feel you can ---- 4MR IRVING: My position would be of course, my Lord, that this 5was the document that was before me when I was writing my 6book, this handwritten extract. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
But you were allowed to make photocopies from the 8document. I would really prefer to see a photocopy instead 9of your handwritten notes on the document. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you have a photocopy, Mr Irving? 11MR IRVING: No, my Lord. I was not allowed to make photocopies 12on this particular one. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Proceed fairly cautiously. What is the 14point? 15MR IRVING: If you will now look at the translation, which is 16on page 10, this is an explanation, is it not? It is an 17extract, first of all, from a confidential manuscript by 18Karl Wolff dated May 11th 1952, and he is referring to the 19effect on Himmler of the assassination of Heydrich. In 20the second paragraph Wolff expresses the rather 21extraordinary view that perhaps 70 men all told from 22Himmler to Hoess were involved in the extermination of the 23Jews. Then there is something which I put in quotation 24marks. The inference is that it is actually words from 25the document: "Bormann and Himmler probably represented 26the view that the Jewish problem had to be dealt with

. P-6

1without Hitler getting his fingers dirty on it." 2 Then the next paragraph says: "After the mass 3epidemic at Auschwitz, the idea of deliberate mass deaths 4probably occurred. Himmler was in his way bizarre and 5religious and held to the view that for the greatest war 6Lord and the greatest war of all times he had take upon 7himself tasks which had to be solved to put Hitler's ideas 8into effect without engaging him", that is Hitler 9personally ---- 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am sorry, I am going to 11interrupt you now. This is, it seems to me, of fairly 12central potential importance. 13MR IRVING: In two ways, my Lord. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not know what it was going to say. It 15is wholly unsatisfactory, is it not, to have your 16manuscript rendition, if that is the right word, of parts 17of this document? Is there an insuperable problem about 18getting hold of a photocopy of it? 19MR IRVING: I will ask the Institute if they will provide me 20with a photocopy. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Or even the Defendants might get a more 22helpful reaction to a request for a photocopy of this 23document. 24MR RAMPTON: We might, but I have to say this is a note of 25something that Karl Wolff, a high ranking SS officer close 26to Himmler and Hitler, said in 1952.

. P-7

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is potentially self-exculpatory, I can see 2that. 3MR RAMPTON: That is a comment that I would make about it. The 4reason I say that now is that I do not know that I believe 5that it is worth, frankly, our time and trouble going to 6get the original from Munich. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Can I make a comment here, or a question? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, please do. 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is your interview with Karl Wolff? 10MR IRVING: Good Lord, no. 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
You referred yesterday to a confidential manuscript by 12Karl Wolff. This is not a part of the confidential 13manuscript. This is part of the collection of testimonies 14collected by the Institute in the 1950s. You can 15recognize it by these reference numbers shown in German. 16It is an open class. I think, if you phone the Institute, 17you can get a photocopy within three hours or so. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I would have thought. 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is open class. There is no need to rely on handwritten 20excerpts, anything of this kind. 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You see, I am a bit unhappy, I will be frank, Mr Irving, 22that there are dots immediately before and immediately 23after the passage that you rely on. 24MR IRVING: Yes. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that is satisfactory and 26I think the witness is entitled to take the position,

. P-8

1"I am not prepared to comment unless I have the entire 2document in front of me". Whether it has any weight or 3not is another matter. 4MR IRVING: The only weight that it might possibly have is of 5course that I relied heavily on my extracts from the Wolff 6manuscript in writing my books. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is not the Wolff manuscript. 8MR IRVING: Your Lordship will recognise passages from this 9manuscript as they are represented and summarized in the 10Hitler's War. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: My response to that is whether an objective 12historian could and should have placed weight on this 13document must depend on the whole terms of it, not just on 14selective extracts. 15MR IRVING: Of course I saw the whole document when I sat there 16making the extracts. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course you did, but I think we need to see 18the whole document to see whether you should have attached 19the weight you say you did attach to it. 20MR IRVING: I will try to obtain it, but of course I cannot 21obtain it today. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am wondering whether, if it really is a 23matter of three hours, and I do not see why it should not 24be, as Dr Longerich says, somebody could not perhaps even 25go and place a telephone call now. 26MR RAMPTON: The best person to do that is the gentleman in the

. P-9

1witness box. I may be speaking out of turn but I think he 2is the one that carries the clout so far as the Institute 3in Munich is concerned. It may be that one of my German 4researchers would be able to do it and see if we can get 5it before close of play today. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was hoping. I will leave it 7to you. I think I am going to ask you to leave this 8document and come back to it. We will come back to it 9anyway but come back to it if we get the proper document. 10MR RAMPTON: I am told that they do not feel they can do it. 11Could I have permission to speak to Dr Longerich about it 12at the adjournment? Maybe he can make a telephone call at 13lunch time. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, if it really cannot be done before then. 15MR RAMPTON: I am told, I do not know reasons are, that it 16would be difficult for anybody but him to do it. Perhaps 17I could be a little unorthodox and ask him now? 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, why not? Do you mind, Mr Irving? It is 19a bit unorthodox. 20MR RAMPTON: Could you make a telephone call at lunch time? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
If you give me a phone. 22MR RAMPTON: We will give you a phone. 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, sir. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
(After a pause) Sorry, is this a break? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, it is not. Mr Irving, carry on.

. P-10

1MR IRVING: While you still have that bundle in front of you -- 2my Lord, this is just by way of putting documents in -- 3page 1 is a German document which is a conference dated 4August 6th 1942, on the face of it. Right? It is from an 5American microfilm T 501 which is the records of the 6military government, the generalgouvernenent. Is it a 7record of the conference of 6th August 1942, Dr Longerich? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Again, I have to say I got this document five minutes ago 9and I should really have the time to read it. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us read it together. I am sure we will 11be able to manage. 12MR IRVING: My Lord, I am just really going to pay attention to 13the title of the document and in the most general terms. 14Is this a document relating to increasing air raid 15precaution measurements in the government general? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The translation is guidelines for the building up of air 17raid defence in the area of the command of the military 18force in the generalgouvernement. That is the title. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
The remaining four pages just give guidelines for how to 20do this, to build air raid shelters because of the 21increased danger of British air attacks? 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It does not say British air attacks. I think it could 23also refer to Soviet or American attacks but I just trust 24you that this is the case. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just so that I understand the relevance, this 26is back to Auschwitz?

. P-11

1MR IRVING: Back to Auschwitz, my Lord, yes, crematorium No. 2(ii). The next document I want you to look at briefly is 3on page 5. First of all, I draw your attention to the SS 4runes on the first line under be Abschrift. Do you have 5page 5? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
You see the SS runes after Reichsfuhrer SS? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
So this is probably a genuine wartime document? I have to 10put it like that. 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Probably. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you familiar with this document, signed by the chief 13of the concentration camp system, Pohl? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I cannot recall the document. I am really curious to know 15from which archive the document is. I also have to say 16I did not have the time to read the document. So would 17you say where this document is from, from which archive 18you have that? 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
It has been provided to me by a lawyer in Dusseldorf who 20is heavily involved in wartime cases. 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
So you cannot say from which archive. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
I will obtain it for the court. 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is difficult for me to comment on the document if I do 24not know where the original is. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see that. Was this in your discovery, 26Mr Irving?

. P-12

1MR IRVING: My Lord, no it was not. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought not. It is typical of last minute 3documents being provided to me by lawyers around the world 4and they know these things. If your Lordship has any 5objection, then I would not take it further. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not. I think this document is 7rather different from your manuscript and I think we will 8proceed cautiously, but for the moment let us assume it is 9authentic. 10MR IRVING: If you just look at the first page of this document 11and run your eye over it, is Pohl sending a message to all 12the concentration camp commandants, 19 of them, saying: 13"It is time to stop the rough and ready measures with 14prisoners. We are losing them like flies. We need their 15manpower. Look after them better"? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, first of all, I have to express my reservations 17about this document. I do not know the context. I do not 18know the archive. But on the assumption that this is an 19authentic document, yes, it is a letter to the 19 heads of 20the concentration camps, and obviously the document is 21saying that they have to improve their measures to keep 22prisoners alive, so which is a kind of reference to what 23happened in the camps before, I think. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Indeed, and paragraph 5 of that first page says: "Not 25from any false sentimentality but because we need their 26arms and legs because those are helping the German people

. P-13

1to get to a great victory. That is why we have got to 2start paying attention to the welfare of the prisoners"? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. That is stated here in this document. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Then the next page, page 2, the heading is, "Foodstuffs, 5food, feeding"? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not have the time to read now. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I am just asking you to look at the headings. That 8all we need, I think. Page 2 he is talking about the 9feeding. The following page, paragraph 2, is called 10"Clothing". Then down to the bottom of that page, 11"Natural Medications" or "Health" ---- 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- "stuff". 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I cannot, you know, I cannot read so fast but under 15"Clothing" it is stated here: "I decide that during the 16winter, as far as far as available, prisoners should wear 17coats, pullover, socks", so that should give you an idea 18about the standards which actually existed in the 19concentration camps before this letter arrived, and it 20says, it says "as far as available", so it does not 21actually say, "Give the men, you know, proper clothing". 22It is saying, you know, "You can give them socks if they 23are available and nothing more". So I think this gives 24you a kind of an idea of this. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Over the page, paragraph 4 is called "Avoiding unnecessary 26exertions". For example, these frequent parades were they

. P-14

1were held standing for hours while they were counted 2zielappelle ---- 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- are to be kept as short as possible, and so on. In 5other words, there seems to be a reversal of existing 6policy because they are losing prisoners like flies to 7what I would call non-violent causes. 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
That is your interpretation, yes. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, what is yours? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, they started in the concentration camps a programme 11which they called "extermination through work". So they 12used hard labour as a tool, as a means to kill prisoners. 13This was the practice before. Now, at October '43, it is 14not really surprising they are a bit cautious here and 15they are trying to improve as far as they can, trying to 16improve in some sense the general conditions of the 17prisoners. But, of course, this is a document, I mean, 18this document is, of course, sent to the head of the 19concentration camps -- nothing to do with the 20extermination camps, for instance. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was going to ask you about that. 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. So, as far as Auschwitz is concerned, it concerns 23the slave labours within the camp. It does not say 24anything about the people who were deported to the camp 25and selected in front of the camp. 26 If one, you know, if I have to -- if I were in

. P-15

1the position to give you a kind of expert's opinion on the 2condition in the concentration camps at the end of 1943, 3I would not completely rely on this document. It would be 4completely unprofessional to rely on this one document. 5One has to look, of course, at all kind of circumstances. 6One has to look at the death rates. They had statistics 7on the death rates and I had to look at those, and so on. 8You know, the problem with this kind of document is that 9if you have not seen the file, in the file in the next bit 10you could find a document which says, "Well, I recall my 11order from last week". If you do not have the context, it 12is difficult to make, you know, a general statement as an 13historian about the condition in this camp, and whether 14they really, you know, in the way gave up this idea of 15extermination through work in the end of 1943 and how far 16they still carried on with this policy. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you one question? You refer 18to the death rates and they were being reported, for 19example, from Auschwitz on a regular basis? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Death rates of those in the camps? 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
The inmates in the camps? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, exactly. 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Do you recall, in general, whether the death rate reduced 26around October 1943?

. P-16

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I cannot -- I think I should not speculate. 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No. 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not have the statistics here and I cannot answer. 4MR IRVING: You do actually because they are just in one of the 5other documents in the bundle, my Lord. We are coming to 6the death rates in a minute. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we? Good. 8MR IRVING: Yes. Can I ask, if you have finished with your 9replies, Dr Longerich, now to look at the loose page 10No. 15? This is from the same kind of source, is it not, 11the administration of the concentration camp system, dated 12December 28th 1942, and this is a letter addressed to the 13camp doctors of the concentration camps. Let me tell you 14where this comes from. It comes from a book called "Macht 15Ohne Moral". It is, obviously, not a wartime transcript. 16It has been transcribed, presumably, from a microfilm or 17something. 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, it is, I think somebody ---- 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Typed a copy? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
--- typed a copy, yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
But it is a letter written to the camp doctors of the 22concentration camps, including Auschwitz. That is the 23fifth one. Ravensbruck, Flosenburg and Nattsweileicken 24and I can see there Mauthausen at the end. It is saying 25to them in the second sentence, is it not, well, it begins 26by saying, "I am attaching", which is not attached here,

. P-17

1"a list of the current editions and departures in all the 2concentration camps for your attention. From the latter,, 3you can see that of 156,000 arrivals, around 70,000 have 4died". He goes on to say: "This is completely 5unacceptable and the camp doctors have to stop their rough 6and ready measures and they have to start making sure the 7prisoners survive". What would you make of that kind of 8document? Are there any other passages you want to read 9from that document or translate? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, it says here that one can read from the statistics 11that from 156 prisoners who came into the camp, 70,000 12died, and with this kind of high death rates, one is not 13able to keep the number of prisoners on the same level. 14I think this is the main concern, to keep, because the 15people died in the concentration camps, it is not possible 16to keep, you know, to keep this number of prisoners in the 17camp. This is nothing to do, of course, with 18extermination and gas chambers in Auschwitz. It is what 19happens in the camp. 20MR RAMPTON: Can I, perhaps, interrupt and ask Dr Longerich, 21not Mr Irving, Dr Longerich, to translate the rest of that 22paragraph when he has read it? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. "The concentration, the camp doctors have to make 24sure with all means at their disposal that the death rate 25in the single camps has to decline, not the one is the 26better doctor in the concentration camp who believes that

. P-18

1through unresponsible, that he has to", well ---- 2MR IRVING: "Inappropriate callousness"? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
"Inappropriate". 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Harshness" or "hardness"? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
"Harshness to, he has to..." 6MR RAMPTON: Maybe the lady translator can do it. 7THE INTERPRETER: Yes. "Not he is the better physician or 8doctor in a concentration camp who believes that through 9inappropriate, that he has to stand out through 10inappropriate hardness, but he who achieves, he who 11maintains the ability to work in the various workplaces 12through supervision and exchange on a level as high as 13possible"? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, and I think "exchange" is here the key word, so what 15they are trying to achieve is they are trying to keep a 16certain number of prisoners to use them as slave labours 17to work them to death, but, of course, unfortunately, they 18have too many people died in a too short time, so they 19have to make sure they got supply from outside. This is, 20I think it is quite, the reference is here, "exchange of 21prisoners", yes? It is not the duty of the doctors to, 22you know, keep the people, to keep the prisoners on life 23-- alive, sorry, alive, so I think this is ---- 24MR IRVING: Is this document declaring war on the callousness 25of the camp doctors? 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not think they would be -- just reminded them, the

. P-19

1document reminded them to perform their duties as 2concentration camp doctors, and it is quite clearly what 3their duties are. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, to keep them alive? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, to maintain that always, you know, there is the same 6number of prisoners in the camp, yes? So to make sure 7that the effectiveness of a worker is, the effectiveness 8of the workforce is as high as possible by supervision and 9exchange of individual workers. So his responsibility is 10to care for the entire camp population, but not for the 11single worker. He has to make sure that the individual 12workers are exchanges so that the number of workers in the 13camp is a kind of ---- 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, that has nothing do with the doctors, has it, 15really? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, of course, the doctor has to -- this is the prime 17responsibility of the doctor. 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No, I mean the exchange is not really the doctor's 19responsibility? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, but he is part of this process. 21MR IRVING: Can I now, if Mr Rampton does not mind, translate 22the next sentence which is: "Camp doctors have more than 23hitherto to supervise the nourishment of the prisoners and 24to make suggestions for improvement in accordance, in 25conformity, with the administration of the camp 26commandants". Then further down that paragraph, does it

. P-20

1not say, "The Reichsfuhrer SS", that is Heinreich Himmler, 2"has ordered that the mortality rates are without 3question to be held down. They have got to be reduced". 4 So that is the overall tenor of this letter. 5The camp doctors are not doing their job properly. They 6have got to pay attention to the feeding and the health of 7the prisoners. Himmler is getting angry because they are 8losing so much of their valuable slave labour through 9whatever. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where do you get Himmler from? 11MR IRVING: The Reichsfuhrer SS. It is the last sentence but 12one, my Lord. The Reichsfuhrer SS es hat befuhlen? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The bottom line for me is: "The programme to exterminate 14prisoners for work is going too fast. We have to make 15sure we did not kill too many in a short time". I think 16this is the context of document. 17MR IRVING: It is difficult at the last minute when documents 18are provided to me by lawyers around the world in doing 19these things. If your Lordship has any objection, then I 20would not take it further. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not. I think this document is 22rather different from your manuscript and I think we will 23proceed cautiously, but for the moment let us assume it is 24authentic. 25MR IRVING: If you just look at the first page of this document 26and run your eye over it, is Pohl sending a message to all

. P-21

1the concentration camp commandants, 19 of them, saying: 2"It is time to stop the rough and ready measures with 3prisoners. We are losing them like flies. We need their 4manpower. Look after them better"? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, first of all, I have to express my reservations 6about this document. I do not know the context. I do not 7know the archive. But on the assumption that this is an 8authentic document, yes, it is a letter to the 19 heads of 9the concentration camps, and obviously the document is 10saying that they have to improve their measures to keep 11prisoners alive, so which is a kind of reference to what 12happened in the camps before, I think. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Indeed, and paragraph 5 of that first page says: "Not 14from any false sentimentality but because we need their 15arms and legs because those are helping the German people 16to get to a great victory. That is why we have got to 17start paying attention to the welfare of the prisoners"? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. That is stated here in this document. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Then the next page, page 2, the heading is, "Foodstuffs, 20food, feeding"? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not have the time to read now. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I am just asking you to look at the headings. That 23all we need, I think. Page 2 he is talking about the 24feeding. The following page, paragraph 2, is called 25"Clothing". Then down to the bottom of that page, 26"Natural Medications" or "Health" ----

. P-22

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- "stuff". 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I cannot, you know, I cannot read so fast but under 4"Clothing" it is stated here: "I decide that during the 5winter, as far as far as available, prisoners should wear 6coats, pullover, socks", so that should give you an idea 7about the standards which actually existed in the 8concentration camps before this letter arrived, and it 9says, it says "as far as available", so it does not 10actually say, "Give the men, you know, proper clothing". 11It is saying, you know, "You can give them socks if they 12are available and nothing more". So I think this gives 13you a kind of an idea of this. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Over the page, paragraph 4 is called "Avoiding unnecessary 15exertions". For example, these frequent parades were they 16were held standing for hours while they were counted 17zielappelle ---- 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- are to be kept as short as possible, and so on. In 20other words, there seems to be a reversal of existing 21policy because they are losing prisoners like flies to 22what I would call non-violent causes. 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
That is your interpretation, yes. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, what is yours? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, they started in the concentration camps a programme 26which they called "extermination through work". So they

. P-23

1used hard labour as a tool, as a means to kill prisoners. 2This was the practice before. Now, at October '43, it is 3not really surprising they are a bit cautious here and 4they are trying to improve as far as they can, trying to 5improve in some sense the general conditions of the 6prisoners. But, of course, this is a document, I mean, 7this document is, of course, sent to the head of the 8concentration camps -- nothing to do with the 9extermination camps, for instance. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was going to ask you about that. 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. So, as far as Auschwitz is concerned, it concerns 12the slave labours within the camp. It does not say 13anything about the people who were deported to the camp 14and selected in front of the camp. 15 If one, you know, if I have to -- if I were in 16the position to give you a kind of expert's opinion on the 17condition in the concentration camps at the end of 1943, 18I would not completely rely on this document. It would be 19completely unprofessional to rely on this one document. 20One has to look, of course, at all kind of circumstances. 21One has to look at the death rates. They had statistics 22on the death rates and I had to look at those, and so on. 23You know, the problem with this kind of document is that 24if you have not seen the file, in the file in the next bit 25you could find a document which says, "Well, I recall my 26order from last week". If you do not have the context, it

. P-24

1is difficult to make, you know, a general statement as an 2historian about the condition in this camp, and whether 3they really, you know, in the way gave up this idea of 4extermination through work in the end of 1943 and how far 5they still carried on with this policy. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you one question? You refer 7to the death rates and they were being reported, for 8example, from Auschwitz on a regular basis? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Death rates of those in the camps? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
The inmates in the camps? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, exactly. 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Do you recall, in general, whether the death rate reduced 15around October 1943? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I cannot -- I think I should not speculate. 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No. 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not have the statistics here and I cannot answer. 19MR IRVING: You do actually because they are just in one of the 20other documents in the bundle, my Lord. We are coming to 21the death rates in a minute. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we? Good. 23MR IRVING: Yes. Can I ask, if you have finished with your 24replies, Dr Longerich, now to look at the loose page 25No. 15? This is from the same kind of source, is it not, 26the administration of the concentration camp system, dated

. P-25

1December 28th 1942, and this is a letter addressed to the 2camp doctors of the concentration camps. Let me tell you 3where this comes from. It comes from a book called "Macht 4Ohne Moral". It is, obviously, not a wartime transcript. 5It has been transcribed, presumably, from a microfilm or 6something. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, it is, I think somebody ---- 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Typed a copy? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
--- typed a copy, yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
But it is a letter written to the camp doctors of the 11concentration camps, including Auschwitz. That is the 12fifth one. Ravensbruck, Flosenburg and Nattsweileicken 13and I can see there Mauthausen at the end. It is saying 14to them in the second sentence, is it not, well, it begins 15by saying, "I am attaching", which is not attached here, 16"a list of the current editions and departures in all the 17concentration camps for your attention. From the latter,, 18you can see that of 156,000 arrivals, around 70,000 have 19died". He goes on to say: "This is completely 20unacceptable and the camp doctors have to stop their rough 21and ready measures and they have to start making sure the 22prisoners survive". What would you make of that kind of 23document? Are there any other passages you want to read 24from that document or translate? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, it says here that one can read from the statistics 26that from 156 prisoners who came into the camp, 70,000

. P-26

1died, and with this kind of high death rates, one is not 2able to keep the number of prisoners on the same level. 3I think this is the main concern, to keep, because the 4people died in the concentration camps, it is not possible 5to keep, you know, to keep this number of prisoners in the 6camp. This is nothing to do, of course, with 7extermination and gas chambers in Auschwitz. It is what 8happens in the camp. 9MR RAMPTON: Can I, perhaps, interrupt and ask Dr Longerich, 10not Mr Irving, Dr Longerich, to translate the rest of that 11paragraph when he has read it? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. "The concentration, the camp doctors have to make 13sure with all means at their disposal that the death rate 14in the single camps has to decline, not the one is the 15better doctor in the concentration camp who believes that 16through unresponsible, that he has to", well ---- 17MR IRVING: "Inappropriate callousness"? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
"Inappropriate". 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Harshness" or "hardness"? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
"Harshness to, he has to..." 21MR RAMPTON: Maybe the lady translator can do it. 22THE INTERPRETER: Yes. "Not he is the better physician or 23doctor in a concentration camp who believes that through 24inappropriate, that he has to stand out through 25inappropriate hardness, but he who achieves, he who 26maintains the ability to work in the various workplaces

. P-27

1through supervision and exchange on a level as high as 2possible"? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, and I think "exchange" is here the key word, so what 4they are trying to achieve is they are trying to keep a 5certain number of prisoners to use them as slave labours 6to work them to death, but, of course, unfortunately, they 7have too many people died in a too short time, so they 8have to make sure they got supply from outside. This is, 9I think it is quite, the reference is here, "exchange of 10prisoners", yes? It is not the duty of the doctors to, 11you know, keep the people, to keep the prisoners on life 12-- alive, sorry, alive, so I think this is ---- 13MR IRVING: Is this document declaring war on the callousness 14of the camp doctors? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not think they would be -- just reminded them, the 16document reminded them to perform their duties as 17concentration camp doctors, and it is quite clearly what 18their duties are. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, to keep them alive? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, to maintain that always, you know, there is the same 21number of prisoners in the camp, yes? So to make sure 22that the effectiveness of a worker is, the effectiveness 23of the workforce is as high as possible by supervision and 24exchange of individual workers. So his responsibility is 25to care for the entire camp population, but not for the 26single worker. He has to make sure that the individual

. P-28

1workers are exchanges so that the number of workers in the 2camp is a kind of ---- 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, that has nothing do with the doctors, has it, 4really? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, of course, the doctor has to -- this is the prime 6responsibility of the doctor. 7Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No, I mean the exchange is not really the doctor's 8responsibility? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, but he is part of this process. 10MR IRVING: Can I now, if Mr Rampton does not mind, translate 11the next sentence which is: "Camp doctors have more than 12hitherto to supervise the nourishment of the prisoners and 13to make suggestions for improvement in accordance, in 14conformity, with the administration of the camp 15commandants". Then further down that paragraph, does it 16not say, "The Reichsfuhrer SS", that is Heinreich Himmler, 17"has ordered that the mortality rates are without 18question to be held down. They have got to be reduced". 19 So that is the overall tenor of this letter. 20The camp doctors are not doing their job properly. They 21have got to pay attention to the feeding and the health of 22the prisoners. Himmler is getting angry because they are 23losing so much of their valuable slave labour through 24whatever. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where do you get Himmler from? 26MR IRVING: The Reichsfuhrer SS. It is the last sentence but

. P-29

1one, my Lord. The Reichsfuhrer SS es hat befuhlen. 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The bottom line for me is "The programme to exterminate 3prisoners for work is going too fast. We have to make 4sure that we do not kill too many in a short timeframe. 5I think this is the context of the document". 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Dr Longerich, it does not actually say that in the 7document, does it? That is the spin you have put on it. 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, but again, you know, if you ask me as an expert and 9you just put one document in front of me, I have to say 10that you have to see it in the context of the history of 11the concentration camps, and it is not the prime 12responsibility -- this was not the prime responsibility of 13concentration camps doctors to look for the health and 14welfare of the prisoners. One has to say that, and you 15cannot ---- 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
To your knowledge, was there a large camp hospital in 17Auschwitz? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I would not call it a hospital. It was a kamp 19baracken. So this is a place where sick prisoners, sick 20prisoners, were forced to go to the kamp baracken and, of 21course, there the main purpose of this so-called hospital 22was, of course, to select the prisoners not fit for work 23and to send them into the gas chambers. So the whole 24notion of a hospital, I think, is rather bizarre, as far 25as prisoners are concerned. 26 I have to say I am not really an expert for

. P-30

1Auschwitz. We had an expert here and I think I cannot do 2it ---- 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think his answer was more or less the same 4as yours. 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, I cannot actually -- I do not have more expertise, 6definitely not more expertise than he. 7MR IRVING: I am not going to ask you questions about 8Auschwitz. This is about the entire concentration camp 9system or the extermination system, as you would describe 10it. Obviously, I do not want to flood the court with 11documents of this nature, but had you seen documents ---- 12MR RAMPTON: No, I am sorry. I do not believe that is what the 13witness has said. What the witness has said is that this 14concerns, to use Mr Irving's phrase, slave labour in the 15concentration camps which includes a whole lot of camps in 16Germany which have nothing to do with extermination. The 17witness has specifically said that these documents have 18nothing whatever to do with the extermination programme 19which took place at Birkenhau which is not mentioned in 20any of these documents or in the Reinhardt ---- 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is, undoubtedly, what the witness has 22been saying, none of this touches on the ones who were not 23selected for ---- 24MR IRVING: My Lord, it is remarkable the way the Defence 25sometimes says that Auschwitz covers both camps and 26sometimes they say it does not. That is all I would say

. P-31

1there. Can we now look at the third document, please, 2which is the only other one I am going to trouble the 3court with on this particular matter, document No. 16, 4which is a four page document with tables dated September 530th 1943 from the same kind of man, is it not? It is 6signed actually by Pohl himself, chief of the camp system, 7and here he actually attaches statistics, does he not, for 8deaths just in one month, August, 1943? The third page is 9a table of death in August 1943. 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Do I have chance to read the document? Give me, please, 11five minutes. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Take your time. 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 14MR IRVING: First of all, the covering letter is a bit 15triumphant, is it not? It says: "In consequence of the 16hygienic measures we have introduced, and the better 17feeding, the better clothing, the death rate has gone down 18in the camps". 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us just see, would you mind, would the 20translator very kindly translate the first paragraph just 21so we get the order of the mortality? 22THE INTERPRETER: The first paragraph? 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you mind? 24THE INTERPRETER: "Since during the month of December 1942 25mortality was still at -- whereas, in the month of 26December 1942 the mortality was still at around 10 per

. P-32

1cent, it already was reduced in the month of January 1943 2to 8 per cent, and proceeded to go down further. This is 3mainly -- this reduction of the mortality is mainly 4attributed to the fact that the hygienic measures which 5had been asked for for sometime have now at least been 6implemented to a large extent. Moreover, in regarding the 7feeding, the nourishment, it was ordered that a third of 8the food should be added to, should be added just before 9the distribution of the meal in its raw state, to 10supplement the cooked food. It was avoided to kill the 11food by cooking it. In addition, sauerkrauts and similar 12food was distributed. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that will do. So they were 10 14per cent mortality. 15MR IRVING: Horrendous mortality rates when you look at the 16figures, my Lord. That is 10 per cent per month. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: They are now very pleased with themselves 18because they have got the death rate in Auschwitz down to 1948,000 men in one month? 20MR IRVING: No, it is not. That is the actual number. The 21first column is the number on hand, my Lord. The second 22column is the deaths that month, 1442. 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I mean, you said this has a kind of triumphant, this 24letter has a kind of triumphant attitude, and the triumph 25here is that the death rate, the monthly date rate, is 26reduced from 10 per cent in December to 8 per cent in

. P-33

1January. So this is the success of these measures. So 8 2per cent, eight people of 100 would die each month in the 3slave labour camps, nothing to do, of course, with the 4extermination, extermination. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is what you say, is it not, but we are just looking 6at figures in Auschwitz ---- 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is absolutely ---- 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- of men and women? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
--- Auschwitz had two functions. It was a slave labour 10camp and it was an extermination camp, and this clearly 11relates to the -- clearly relates to the slave labour 12camp. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
What are they dying of? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, as I am trying to say, in the slave labour camp they 15had a programme of extermination through work, and the 16life expectancy of a prisoner in the death, in the slave 17labour camp was a couple of weeks or probably a couple of 18months, and they died -- you can see actually see it from 19the document itself because the documents state, you know, 20what has to be improved. The food has to be improved 21because the conditions, the food conditions, are 22completely unsufficient. It says in the document, for 23instance, that prisoners are allowed to wear a coat 24outside during the winter. So this gives, I think, a very 25clear answer that prisoners in the camp would die because 26they do not have the efficient, they do not have

. P-34

1sufficient clothing, and there are, of course, epidemics 2in the camp and, of course, there is a regular process of 3selection. The people unfit for work, the sick and the 4weak prisoners would be selected and sent to the gas 5chambers. 6 I think, if you read the document with a 7reference to actually the conditions in the camp, the 8conditions in, let us say, August 1943, you have a very 9good idea of what the conditions were. August '43, 1442 10people died, for instance, in the camp. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you explain what "durch mittel 12Belegstaff" is? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is the average number of prisoners. 14MR IRVING: Average camp strength. 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Average prison population? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 18MR IRVING: So the five columns, my Lord, average prison 19population of each of those camps. The next column is the 20numbers of deaths which, in the case of Auschwitz and one 21or two of the other camps is being divided up as to men 22and women, separate figures. The next column is the 23percentage ---- 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the rest is clear. 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. It is quite clear because the numbers here were 26separated because Auschwitz, the slave labour camps, was

. P-35

1divided into a women's camp and into a men's camp, so this 2gives you an indication that this relates clearly to the 3slave labour camp and nothing to do with the extermination 4installations. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which camp would be meant by "Lublin"? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is the -- this is Maidonek, complex of camps really. 7MR IRVING: If you go now to the next page after that 8statistical table, you have three pages showing a graph 9showing how over the three or four years, 1940 to 1943, 10the mortality has soared from various causes. There are 11quite visible peak. There is a big peak around about 12March 1943 which is on the second page. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you explain for our benefit what this 14covers? Is it all concentration camps? 15MR IRVING: It is all the camps. I draw the witness's 16attention first to the third of three pages. It has a 17rubber stamp. The senior doctor on Pohl's staff. In 18other words, he is the head doctor or, I suppose, the 19surgeon general of the concentration camp system. It has 20Himmler's initials on this document on the third page. 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Where is that? Which page? 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you have the graphs? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
It will be the last page but one before the big yellow 25sheet. Do you see, it has a rubber stamp saying that, 26effectively, it is the surgeon general of the

. P-36

1concentration camp system? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
On the right it has Heinrich Himmler's own initials, so it 4has been submitted to Himmler? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, yes. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
And it is a graph showing, the bottom two curves are the 7percentage figures, the middle curve is a percentage 8figure, the bottom curve appears to be numbers of death 9per month and the upper curve appears to be a cumulative 10figure. But it is difficult to interpret, and I am not a 11statistician, all I am going to say is there are quite 12clear peaks. They have gone through crises. Would you 13accept that that is a fair statement? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
There were differences in the monthly death rate, yes, 15I can see that. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
And the final page is the yellow page right at the end 17which is a contrast of the mortality rates in the 18concentration camps in the second half year of 1942 19compared with the second half year of 1943. Again you can 20see in August and September 1942 and in August and 21September 1943 they have gone through a serious crisis of 22some kind. There have been 11,000 deaths, 12,000 deaths, 23in the concentration camp system in corresponding August 24and September of both years. So I am only going to ask 25one or two general questions now from what you have seen. 26In other words, there was a very high mortality rate in

. P-37

1these concentration camps? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, indeed. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
How did they dispose of the bodies? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I am actually not prepared to -- I mean, I am not 5prepared here to comment on the concentration camps, but, 6as far as I know, they burnt the bodies in crematoria. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
In crematoria, yes. If these deaths had been caused 8through epidemics, would that be an appropriate way of 9disposing of the bodies? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, I think so. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you any indication as to what the major cause of 12deaths in Auschwitz was in 1942 or 1943? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not think I should guess at what I think. As far as 14I recall it, it was typhus, but I am not sure. I am not 15absolutely... 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you even seen any references to this epidemic in the 17police decodes at the Public Record Office or in the 18United States? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen any references to the camp at Auschwitz 21being quarantined of what is called a lager spare? 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I cannot recall that. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, that is the only questions I have to put on the 24death statistics. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that you are really putting 26what I suspect may be your case. Are you suggesting (and

. P-38

1I am not sure this is the right witness anyway) that the 2crematoria were solely being used in order to burn the 3corpses of those who are shown on this graph to have died 4from typhus? 5MR IRVING: Let me put two or three more questions in that 6direction then, my Lord, to nail it down. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, because if that is your case, you must 8put it fair and square and it may be Dr Longerich will 9say, "Well, I am not the right person to ask". 10MR IRVING: But he is not the right expert, yes. Dr Longerich, 11from your knowledge of the concentration camp system or 12its workings, who would have the job of disposing of the 13bodies in the crematoria? Would that be the 14sonderkommandos? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think so, yes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
And would they remove all the gold and valuables from 17these bodies first? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would it be a very grisly and memorable task? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I would suppose so, yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think really, my Lord, I can ask any further 22questions on that. 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am not sure, I am not really sure, I am also -- actually 24I am not prepared to go into details about the history of 25Auschwitz, and if this is a kind of, I do not know, I am 26not too sure about the sonderkommando here, and I should

. P-39

1probably -- we had expert in Auschwitz and I should 2probably simply say I am not sure here. 3MR RAMPTON: Can I make a suggestion? If these documents be 4thought important, and if it be Mr Irving's case (which, 5by implication, I suppose it must be, forget all the other 6camps mentioned in these documents as they are nothing to 7do with this case) that the reference to Auschwitz is a 8reference to Auschwitz Birkenhau, then I think maybe the 9right thing to do, I do not know what your Lordship 10thinks, this gentleman is not an expert on Auschwitz, is 11to send these documents to Professor van Pelt and get him 12to put something in writing as a supplement to his report 13by of commentary on these documents. 14MR IRVING: Together with the appropriate part of the 15cross-examination. 16MR RAMPTON: Yes, certainly. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: The first thing, though, is to get clear and, 18I mean, it is what I was trying to do, and I think 19Mr Rampton is also wishing for clarification, quite what 20you are making of these graphs. They are new and I have 21no doubt there are good explanations why they were not put 22to Professor van Pelt. But are you suggesting, just take 23Auschwitz because we have not gone into detail in the 24other camps, that the deaths that one infers were taking 25place at Auschwitz from these graphs were the reason why 26the crematoria were being employed in the way that various

. P-40

1witnesses have described they were being employed? 2MR IRVING: Let me put one more question then to the witness. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not think the witness is really 4going to be very happy to answer. I am really asking you 5to tell me and tell the Defendants. 6MR IRVING: In that case, if you look at the statistical table, 7my Lord, which is the third page, it would be page 18, 8I suppose. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, the yellow one? 10MR IRVING: No, the table with columns. You see that in one 11month, August, 1943, there were 2400 deaths in Auschwitz 12from whatever cause, and for the argument I would accept 13it is Auschwitz and not Birkenhau, then that is 2400 14bodies that have to be disposed of in that 31 days 15period. It is 200 tonnes of bodies which is a memorable 16task for the sonderkommandos who had the wretched task of 17cremating them. The suggestion I am making is that it is 18not beyond the bounds of probability that this is what 19they are recalling when they see -- one question which 20I think van Pelt would have to answer, if this question 21was to put to him, is did the Auschwitz camp, as opposed 22to Birkenhau, have the cremation capacity for disposing of 23bodies on that scale at this time or would the bodies have 24been sent to Birkenhau to be disposed of? 25MR RAMPTON: This is a terrible confusion in Mr Irving's mind, 26that the greater part of the workers, as opposed to what

. P-41

1I might call the murderees, who were put into the labour 2section after selection were housed at Birkenhau. 3MR IRVING: So this is Birkenhau then we are talking about? 4MR RAMPTON: No, no. When one talks about the extermination 5facility at Auschwitz, one is talking mainly but not 6exclusively of the two bunkers and the four crematoria 7where the people went immediately after they got off the 8train. They never went into the work camp. 9 The work camp part housed the majority of the 10slave labour at Auschwitz Birkenhau. That has been 11clearly described by Professor van Pelt. We have seen the 12picture of the wire with the gate through it into the 13women's camp, and that is where the majority of those 14Auschwitz frauen would have been housed. That evidence is 15already in court. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have to be clear, you see, you did 17not really, I think, actually quite explain, Mr Irving, 18what it was that you were saying was not beyond the bounds 19of possibility. I think we must really be absolutely 20clear about this. Are you saying that it is not beyond 21the bounds of possibility that all the evidence that we 22have heard about bodies being burnt in the ---- 23MR IRVING: The eyewitness evidence. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- crematoria, whether at Birkenhau or at 25Auschwitz, was the burning of bodies of those who had died 26through disease?

. P-42

1MR IRVING: Of whom there are clearly a very large number. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but what is the answer to the question? 3MR IRVING: The answer is yes. 4MR RAMPTON: My Lord, again I think this is unsatisfactory for 5this witness, I really do, because ---- 6MR IRVING: Except, of course, that I do accept that there were 7gassings on a small scale in Auschwitz as well. 8MR RAMPTON: This is most unsatisfactory because the evidence 9of Professor van Pelt is, whether it be right or wrong, 10which this witness may or may not know but he is not the 11right person to deal with it, the incineration capacity in 12crematoria 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 at Auschwitz Birkenhau was by 13June 1943 something in the region 4,700 bodies a day, and 14this is a monthly figure. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand the point you are making, and 16that will be a point you will, no doubt, make later on, 17but I think we have got clear now from Mr Irving, because 18I am anxious that he states clearly what his case is and 19then it can be addressed by Professor van Pelt, but I 20think it is clear now that the suggestion is that, apart 21from a small number of gassings, which is something that 22has already been accepted by Mr Irving, he says that the 23crematoria were being used to -- everywhere were being 24used solely for the purpose of burning the bodies of those 25who died through disease or from overwork, I suppose. 26MR RAMPTON: Maybe, but on what appears to be, if we are right,

. P-43

1a relatively insignificant scale. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is obviously the point to be made, 3but I have not misrepresented your case, have I, 4Mr Irving? 5MR IRVING: No, that is correct, although I am not sure this 6was the way to have elicited it. Let me ask two more 7related questions then. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 9MR IRVING: Dr Longerich, you said that the prisoners who 10arrived at these camps they were selected and some were 11sent to work and others were exterminated without being 12registered, this is the common consensus, is it not, among 13historians? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why would the Germans have gone to such enormous trouble 16to list down to the last digit the numbers of those who 17were dying in the camps if just 100 yards down the road in 18the same camps they were killing them like flies without 19any kind of registry at all? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I think it is difficult to answer this question, you 21know, actually to reconstruct the rationality of this 22system. I think what -- they had a kind of proper 23concentration camp system. They wanted to know who was in 24the camp. They wanted to control whether people actually 25were able to flee from the camp, for instance, and they 26did not keep statistics about the people they were going

. P-44

1to kill, as far as I am aware of. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
This generates two further questions, Dr Longerich. Have 3you heard of Dr Conrad Morgan, the chief Judge of the SS 4system? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, I have heard of him, yes. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
And he was a lawyer in Frankfurt after the war, was he 7not? He was not prosecuted for war crimes, just so we can 8establish his credentials. 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
He was an investigating judge who carried out 11investigations for the SS about atrocities in 12concentration camps, is that right? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
And were any concentration camp kommandants hanged by the 15SS as a result of having committed what I would call wild 16atrocities? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, as far as I remember, Koch was, for instance, among 18them. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Buchenwald? The kommandant of Buchenwald? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
The husband of the notorious Elz Koch? 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
He was hanged in front of the prisoners of his own camp 24for having committed atrocities? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not recall the circumstance, but I know that he was 26punished.

. P-45

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
And the kommandant of the infamous camp at Pleskau which 2figured in the film Schindler's List, was he also 3penalised, punished, by the SS for committing atrocities? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not recall the details. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did Conrad Morgan report back to Berlin that large numbers 6of illegal killings had been carried out by these 7Kommandants? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, I remember that. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is this not an extraordinary business, in the light of the 10whole story of the Holocaust now, that the SS was 11conducting its own internal enquiries within its own 12jurisdiction? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, Himmler himself refers to this incident in his 14speech in Posnan. He said actually, "We are proud that we 15carried out this operation in a proper way, except some 16exceptions", and he is clearly referring to these people. 17So they had an idea that one had to kill people properly, 18and what, you know, they did not hang Koch because he 19killed prisoners in the camp. They were extreme, the 20conditions in the camp were extremely, for instance, the 21amount of looting and the amount of actually -- what is 22the expression in German? [German] 23MR IRVING: Embezzling, corruption? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Corruption. "Corruption" is the key word here. These 25things played a role in the particular circumstance in 26these camps, I mean, it is clearly that the SS did not

. P-46

1prosecute Koch because he was killing prisoners. This was 2not, I mean, we have extraordinary, I mean, kommandants of 3concentration camps like, for instance, Ikant(?), 4extremely cruel and sadistic persons, but they were not 5prosecuted because they were killing prisoners in the 6camp. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was Rudolf Hoess, the Kommandant of Auschwitz, under 8investigation by the Conrad Morgan also? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not recall this now. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, even if he was, did anything happen to 11him as a result of Morgan's investigation? 12MR IRVING: My Lord, the witness said he does not know. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was just wondering what the point of the 14question was. 15MR IRVING: I know, but, I mean, I cannot really give evidence 16on that. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, again I am not really sure you are 18putting your case. Are you suggesting, Mr Irving, and 19please say so if you are ---- 20MR IRVING: This was going to be the next question. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- please listen to the question. That the 22SS conducted a serious investigation and anyone who was 23found to have illegitimately killed any inmate in any 24concentration camp was punished by the SS. Is that the 25suggestion? 26MR IRVING: A number of the Kommandants were prosecuted and

. P-47

1severely punished for carrying out wild killings. 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
May I draw the attention to this document, to the 3statistics. We have here the initials of Heinrich 4Himmler, and statistics say that we have a death rate in 5the camp in the second half of 1942 of 8.5 per cent in 6July, 10 per cent in August, more than 10 per cent in 7September. So Himmler was prepared to accept this high 8death rates with his own initials here. So he knew about 9it and he then, well, tried in a way to keep the death 10rate down to a certain extent. But, as we said, as we 11heard, you know, they accepted at a success, you know, 12actually to keep the monthly rate down from 10 to 8 per 13cent. So this is a kind of... 14MR IRVING: Dr Longerich, you are not suggesting that these are 15homicidal killings, are you? These statistics here are 16non-homicidal. 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think killings are always -- I mean, I think a killing 18is a killing. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
These are people who died from the reasons stated in the 20covering letter, bad conditions? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
But there is something like a system of concentration camp 22invented by the Nazis in the 1930s and ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Now, this is the word that I was going to pick on 24before ---- 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you interrupted the witness. Just 26finish your answer.

. P-48

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Here, this system was more and more, well, they worked on 2this system and elaborated the system. They introduced 3this idea of extermination through work at the beginning 4of 1942. So it was actually -- the purpose of the 5concentration camp was not to keep prisoners alive and to, 6like -- the purpose of the concentration camp here was, 7clearly, to put people to death and to use their ability 8to work for a certain period of time. This is the idea 9behind this system. It was not, you cannot compare it 10with a prison or anything in a civilized country. 11MR IRVING: Now, I want to ask two questions, one of which 12I was about to ask when his Lordship ---- 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Asked you not to interrupt the witness. 14MR IRVING: No, I am one stage before that actually. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, anyway, ask it now. 16MR IRVING: The first question -- the second question is going 17to be about your system. The first question -- oh, dear! 18Winston Churchill once said, "Never say there are three 19important things". I was going to ask about system. You 20have used the word "system". Does not what I said about 21Conrad Morgan indicate that the whole system was 22ramshackle from start to finish? If I can ask you to 23recall that yesterday we saw that Jackeln had obviously 24overstepped the guidelines and he is called back to 25headquarters, but he does get some mild reprimand. He is 26sent back and nothing else happens. Is this not an

. P-49

1indication of a totally ramshackle system with lack of any 2real discipline? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I do not feel very happy in this situation. I think 4if you want to discuss seriously, let us say, the limits 5of the system that Conrad Morgan saw, then we have to 6discuss the document, we have to read, for instance, the 7evidence about, you know, in Koch's case and so on. But 8I am not really prepared to make these general statements 9about single incidents. You see, I do not have the 10evidence in front of me. I am not prepared to do it. 11There was no indication that I ---- 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are quite right. I am not going to ask you about 13things you do not know about because that would not help 14the court. 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but the system, the SS, as you are trying to say 16here, the idea that the SS had their own, had their own 17disciplinary measures, and they, of course, punished at 18the concentration camps, this has to be seen in a context, 19and I am very unhappy about the idea that I should comment 20on that without actually having a chance to look at the 21wordings and so on. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. Let me ask you about this phrase you have used 23twice this morning now, "vernichtung durch 24Arbeit", destruction by labour? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have referred to this on several occasions. Have you

. P-50

1produced any documents at all in your report where that 2phrase actually occurs or is it just a deduction you make? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
An inference? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
My report is not about particularly this issue. I think 6I mentioned it somewhere in my report, I am not sure here, 7but we have documentary evidence from Himmler in his 8writings to Pohl and to -- that this system was introduced 9at the beginning of 1942. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you do not actually reference it in your report. 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
At the moment, I would have to look at my report, whether 12this is here. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
I did actually look for it. 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
You see, this is a different system separate from the 15killings, separate from the extermination by gas. This is 16actually what happens to the prisoners which were sent 17into the camps actually fit for work, and then they used 18him for a couple of months, a couple of weeks and a couple 19of months and then they sent them to the gas chambers. 20This is a similar, if you want to say, a subsystem of the 21whole system. But in my report I am dealing primarily 22with mass executions, with deportations and extermination 23camps, and so on. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Dr Longerich, it does not make much sense, does it, to 25have a slave labourer who is working for you and work him 26to death so you then have to replace him with somebody

. P-51

1else because, presumably, his output drops off as he is 2dying? Does it make sense? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, in which way do you think it makes sense? I do not 4understand the question. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, your proposition that they deliberately took a slave 6labourer for two months and said, "Work him until he drops 7and then replace him". 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
That is what is -- actually there is a reference in the 9document you presented here when you, about the duties of 10the doctors. They said they have to make sure the 11exchange of prisoners, this is exactly the process. They 12fought a war of racist extermination, so they ---- 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, so we hear, yes. 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
--- one of their main aims in this war was to exterminate 15the Jews in Europe, and they used this as one of the 16methods, and they worked on the assumption that they had 17enough slave labourers at their disposal, and if they had 18exhausted this source, they would use, from their 19perspective, they would use other sources of slave labour, 20like, for instance, the Russians or Poles and so on. They 21work on the assumption that they had, there was an 22abundance, you know, there was an endless number of slave 23labourers who they could force to work for them. But this 24is an irrational and completely wrong assumption, but it 25is still they are working on this assumption. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
My problem is, Dr Longerich, and this was the reason for

. P-52

1the question I asked you, that you make this very bold and 2adventurous statement about a deliberate plan to 3exterminate by hard labour, and yet you have not actually 4produced any reference documents or sources to enable us 5to establish whether ---- 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, you have forced me in a way to make ---- 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- that is your conclusion? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, sorry, but you forced me in a way to make those 9adventures and bold statements because you put in front of 10me some documents and asked me for general statements, and 11my statements may not -- may be adventurous, they may be 12very general, but this is the result of this kind of 13interrogation. 14 In my report, as far as I see, I dealt with the 15programme of exterminations and mass executions and 16deportations into extermination camps, not with this 17particular aspect. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Dr Longerich, in your report, you do on at least two 19occasions use the phrase "extermination by labour" - 20Vernichtung durch Arbeit - and you do not give any 21references for this ---- 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Then let us go to the ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
So we do not know if it is your phrase or a wartime 24phrase? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
"Vernichtung durch Arbeit" is a wartime phrase -- 26extermination through labour.

. P-53

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you do not give any references for it in your report; 2that is the problem we have. 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
We have to look at the pages are you referring to. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we now go to your report and we will perhaps 5stumble ---- 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us find the reference to "extermination 7by labour". 8MR IRVING: I am sure Mr Rampton's staff would have found it a 9long ago, if it was referenced. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I expect that Dr Longerich probably remembers 11where it is: Do you Dr Longerich? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Not at the moment. 13MR IRVING: I have to take care that these slogans do not embed 14themselves in the court's subconsciousness without any 15archival basis. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, in the conclusion, I refer in my report in ---- 17MR RAMPTON: Can I interrupt, please? 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 19MR RAMPTON: It is page 77 of the second part of the report. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. This is the conclusion of my report. So in my 22report I am trying to explain the systematic character of 23the killings, and I am trying to explain the emergence of 24the programme. So I think that in the last section of 25this, I am referring to, well actually the machinery of 26mass murder and full operation from 1942 onwards. I base

. P-54

1my comments here, on my writing here on generally 2well-accepted work, because I thought it was not something 3which is really disputed among historians. 4 We also had an expert witness on Auschwitz here 5who actually was able to fully explain the system. So 6I think that this idea, that prisoners in the camps were 7systematically worked to death, is something which is not 8disputed by historians in this field. 9MR IRVING: There is a general ---- 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving has put before you this morning 11documents showing an overall mortality rate of 10 per cent 12in all the concentration camps. Does that say anything to 13you, Dr Longerich, about what was intended to go on there? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. It is an extremely high 15rate of death and, as we learn from the other document, it 16was a task of the doctors to make sure there was a proper 17exchange of prisoners. So this is a machinery to put 18prisoners to death by work. 19MR IRVING: My Lord, I am indebted to you for reminding me of 20the documents because, of course, is this right, 21Dr Longerich, the documents do refer purely to 22nourishment, proper nourishment, proper medication, proper 23clothing ---- 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- and not being made to stand in these ridiculous three- 26or four hour-long parades and so on?

. P-55

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. I stated this before that, in the document about the 2duties of concentration camps, it is quite clear that it 3is not the duty of the doctor to care for the welfare. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Just so that it is a matter of record, Dr Longerich, page 577, where you used the phrase annihilation through labour, 6you give no reference, do you? 7MR RAMPTON: I was going to interrupt because that is a false 8point, too. On page 89, three lines up from the bottom, 9there is, in the bibliography, a reference to a book by 10Ham and Keienburg called Vernichtung durch Arbeit: Der 11Fall Neungamma von 1990. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you. 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think I made it clear in this final section of the 14report that the annihilation through labour is part of the 15extermination system. I was trying to explain the system 16in a kind of summary because I think that, from 1942 17onwards, it is absolutely not possible to dispute that 18there was such a system for extermination. 19MR IRVING: Can we be absolutely specific and make quite plain 20for the record that this phrase Vernichtung durch Arbeit 21is not a wartime phrase used by SS, but is a title of a 22post-war book, a secondary source on which you relied, is 23that right? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, this is one of the major studies about this problem 25and it refers to a wartime phrase which was currently used 26among the SS.

. P-56

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have not referenced the actual wartime document, you 2just referenced somebody's secondary source, the title of 3a book? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
My report tries to explain how this system of systematic 5murder was built up. Maybe it was mistake, and also you 6did not have the chance to ask me for more evidence for 7that a month ago, it was not my intention here to explain 8in great detail the existing system of extermination after 91942, because I thought that this is something which is 10generally acknowledged and there is no major dispute about 11that. 12 I am trying to explain that the building up of 13the system mainly through the years 1940, 1941 and 1942. 14Then the system is in operation and the annihilation 15through work is one aspect of this system. I am referring 16to second-hand literature. I did not go into detail here; 17I am just referring to general works on this topic in 18which this is described in full detail. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
If there had been one document referred to that secondary 20literature, which was particularly tempting because it 21used that actual phrase, you would no doubt have drawn our 22attention to it, would you not? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
As I said, this is a summary, this is not the main purpose 24of this report. I actually I wrote a book on the policy 25of destruction. I had a chapter on this matter in the 26book.

. P-57

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you are all feeding upon each other, all the historians 2are just feeding upon each other. 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is a research process and, of course, you rely, in 4your central parts of argumentation, on primary evidence, 5but you do not have to invent the reel every time. This 6is why i accept that you can rely on the research of 7others, if their work is generally accepted in the 8historical profession. This is nothing which is 9exceptional. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we rely on a German historian's consensus that the 11consensus of opinion among German historians. What 12happends to a German is ---- 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is an internationally well-established consensus. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
What happens to a German writer who adopts a different 15position on Auschwitz in Germany today, can you tell us? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
You are quite free to express if you have -- as historians 17have doubts and you are quite free to express your doubts 18and to put them down in writing, I do not see what the 19consequences could be. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
I do not want to labour the point, but are you familiar 21with the fact that a number of writers in Germany have 22been sent to prison for expressing these doubts? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am only aware of the fact that there is a law in 24Germany, paragraph 130 of the German penal code, which is 25against the denial of genocide. I do not know whether you 26refer to this case, but I think if you want me to discuss

. P-58

1that, you ---- 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
My actual question was more specific. Were you aware that 3certain historians who have written doubts, shall we say, 4about Auschwitz and the Holocaut, have been sent to prison 5for expressing these doubts? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not know a historian who actually wrote something on 7Auschwitz and whose works is suppressed for that. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
I think we have had better start making progress on his 9report, my Lord. On page 3 of your report, you refer to 10an SS General called Bach-Zelewski, and you referred to 11him again on page 28, 311 -- I am sorry 3.1.11. This 12paragraph on page 28 shows General Bach-Zelewski carrying 13out the most appalling murderers and atrocities, murdering 14women and children on a huge scale, 2,208 Jews of both 15sexes and so on. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
In this paragraph, it is only said that one Company of the 17Police Battalion 322 Mogilev killed, according to their 18own reports, 2,208 Jews and in this town was 19Bach-Zelenski's headquarters and he was ---- 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I draw attention to the last paragraph? 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which paragraph are you on; I cannot see the 22reference? 23MR IRVING: 3.1.11, my Lord, on page 28. 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, and Bach-Zelewski ---- 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
With these two massacres in Mogilev, Bach-Zelewski began a 26whole series of further similar Gross Aktionen - major

. P-59

1actions. 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, Bach-Zelewski was the higher SS police leader in the 3centre, so he was responsible for the killing actions of 4the ---- 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
A mass murderer on a most horrendous scale. 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is your phrase. Yes, I think it is acceptable. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Somebody whose units kill those kinds of women and 8children, and carried out several such actions? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, It is quite fair to say that. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Even one of those murders makes him a murderer? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I would agree, yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
He has been used as quite a source by the allied courts 13and by the historians after the war, has he not? What 14happened to Bach-Zelewski? Was he immediately hanged at 15Nuremberg? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, he was not hanged at Nuremberg. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Or did he die in his bed? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am not sure about this, but the history of his 19persecution after he was not hanged by the Allies, I think 20he was prosecuted but, as far as I am aware, he was never 21sentenced, if I am not wrong. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
He was prosecuted in 1963, is that right? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
1963. Yes, that is true. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
About 20 years after the war was, he lived life as a 25country gentleman in Germany. 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
That is due to the fact that, in Germany, there was no

. P-60

1prosecution of Nazi war criminals between 1949 and 1958. 2It actually started in 1958. It took them five years to 3get the evidence together and then prosecution started. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am just using this as one example, you appreciate that, 5but ---- 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Example of what? I am not following what the 7point is, Mr Irving. 8MR IRVING: The unreliability of testimony of people like 9Bach-Zelewski. 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am not sure here. I do not refer here to Bach-Zelewski 11but if I refer to ---- 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
On page 3, can I draw your attention to paragraph 4? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
In this paragraph, yes. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Former higher SS and police leader Erich von dem 15Bach-Zelewski testified on this question during the 16Nuremberg trials. 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but this example is not the only source. I quoted 18here to say that he referred to a meeting with Himmler and 19just before the beginning of war against the Soviet Union, 20and that Himmler stated there that the Slavic population 21had to be decimated by 30 million. 22 We have other sources for the same fact. There 23is, for instance, referring them to Goring, the Goring's 24remarks to Ciano and particularly important here is 25meeting of the Secretary of States of 2nd May 1941, and 26I am referring them to more documents which actually show

. P-61

1that there was plan in the German leadership to kill 2millions of Slavs in the war against the Soviet Union. So 3I am not relying only on Bach-Zelewski's statement; it is 4actually ---- 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why do you rely on him at all if at he has such very 6dubious credentials. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Bach-Zelewski was a witness in the main trial. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I am going to interrupt again if 9I may because I am simply not following the point here. 10I thought that it was accepted that the object of invading 11Russia was do decimate the Slav population. 12MR IRVING: Not by me, my Lord, but that is not the point that 13I am trying to make. The point I am trying to make is that 14if we are going to write expert reports, one should avoid 15sources like Bach-Zelewski like the plague. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. I think you can use these statements, if you find 17that this is -- I am mainly relying on documentary 18evidence but, of course, one can use this postwar evidence 19if it is supported by other sources. I think this is 20something which is generally accepted among historians. 21I am not saying that the plan of the Germans to 22decimate -- we only have Bach-Zelewski as evidence for 23this plan. We have lot of evidence for that. 24Bach-Zelewski was a colourful figure, so he said, in his 25interrogation, that there are other very interesting 26things, and I think one should follow them, one should not

. P-62

1just ignore them. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Like Scheherezade, she sang like a canary, did she not, in 3order to survivor? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
That is your comparison. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I now take you further down that paragraph No. 4, 6where are you quoting now the directives which stated 7that, without doubt, umpteen millions of people will 8starve to death when we take what we need from the 9country. The original German, you have rather embellished 10it, have you not? "Zig Millionen Menschen verhungern", 11verhungern, that just means go hungry. 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, and then it goes on: "Wenn von uns das fur uns 13Notwendige aus dem Lande herausgeholt wird" - if you take 14out of country which is necessary for us. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
What we need, yes, but is it not that they are not 16starving death? You have embellished that slightly, and 17that is the whole point. 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
They are starving to death because they are agricultural 19products which were taken out of the country. There is 20nothing left for them so they will starve to death. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Starve to death is: "Ein Hunger tut erleben", or 22something like that. "Verhungern" is just "will go 23hungry". 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The context is quite clear, because "we will take 25everything out of the country which we need for 26ourselves"; that is the context.

. P-63

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you agree that that was a bit clever translation by 2you to make the point you wanted to make? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Sorry this is ---- 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Paragraph 4, four lines from the bottom, on page 3. 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think it is from the context. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is fundamental to your argument, of course. 7MR RAMPTON: I do wish Mr Irving would stop interrupting. It 8is very difficult to follow the witness. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I personally would also like to move on, 10because we are not here concerned with criticising the 11historical approach of Dr Longerich but dealing with the 12criticisms he makes of your historical approach, 13Mr Irving. I think spending a very long time on this 14paragraph in which he cites really quite a number of 15sources for what, he says, was the plan to kill the very 16large number of Slavs. I do not think that is 17productive. I think there are substantive points that you 18have to tackle. 19MR IRVING: If, on the one hand, your Lordship says that there 20is great deal of evidence for the desire to decimate the 21Slavs by whatever means, then it turns out that one of his 22sources is obtained by just a clever translation of a 23word. 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. The meaning of the words becomes clear from the 25context. It is not the only source. If you read the next 26sentence, it is the guidelines for the economic

. P-64

1organization of the East Agricultural Staff Group: "Many 2tens of millions of people will be made superfluous in 3this area and will die or be forced to emigrate to 4Siberia". I think this is quite clear. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Dr Longerich, are you not confusing there the possible 6consequence with a criminal intent, which are two totally 7different things? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The intent was to systematically take the agricultural 9products out of country and to use them for their own 10purposes, and to let the population in this country starve 11to death. This was the intention. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. On page 5, paragraph 3. 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
That is the background. I quoted this because this is the 14background for the Holocaust. I am not making a statement 15about the starvation of the Slavic population. I think 16that this is background information that you need to 17understand the violent and cruel intent of the SS when 18they invaded the Soviet Union. This is background 19material. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Dr Longerich, do you agree that if I translated 21"verhungern" as starve to death, then I would have been 22rightly criticised for mistranslation or distortion? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Probably, but again I repeat myself, I think the context 24is clear but they just do not starve to death because of a 25catastrophe; the natural catastrophe is because it is a 26part of the systematic plan.

. P-65

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
On page 5, paragraph 3, you say that the Einsatzgruppen 2consisted of 3,000 men. Is that the total number of men? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
About a little bit more than 3,000 I think. Yes, it is 43,000. Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
That seems a remarkably small force if we are to believe 6the enormous statistical figures that have been thrust 7upon us over the last few weeks. 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not know whether it is mentioned in the next 9paragraph, but the forces who carried out this killing 10operation consists of the Einsatzgruppen, of police 11battalions and of the two Waffen SS Breigetz, so 12altogether this was a force of about 30,000 men. We have, 13as far as the Einsatzgruppen are concerned, this excellent 14documentation, the Ereignismeldung uber der SSR, but it is 15also clear from the documents that also other units like 16the Order Police units like the Waffen SS Breigetz were 17active in killing people. We have sources which explain 18to us that the Wehrmacht, in many cases, was actively 19involved in these killings, and most important is that the 20SS and the police built up a force of auxiliary policemen 21in the area which had a strength in 1942 for about 300,000 22men. We have a lot of evidence that these men were also 23actively involved in the killings. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
They were using the locals, were they? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
They use the locals as auxiliary police. The general rule 26was that then the SS, the SD people would carry out their

. P-66

1killings and so they would shoot people themselves, and 2use the auxiliary SS to seal off the area. So it is not a 3problem manpower shortage to carry out this operation. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
On page 6, we are going to look at paragraph 6 which is 5the Heydrich order of July 2nd 1941. You are familiar 6with that order, are you not? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is one which, in part for example, said to instigate 9pogroms or where pogroms were instigated by the locals to 10turn a blind eye and generally to jolly them along and not 11to get in the way. 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
I have two questions on this document, Dr Longerich. The 14first one is where does it come from? Is it from Russian 15files or from Western files? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Are we talking about the 2nd July document? 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
The 2nd July document. 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is a document which comes from the Moscow archive. 19It was given to the court in Koblenz which dealt with the 20Heuser case in 1963. It has been available in the Federal 21archives since 1963. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is the authenticity of that document 23challenged? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 25MR IRVING: I just want to ask him a question. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not by you, by Mr Irving.

. P-67

1MR IRVING: No. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: If it is, challenge it, if it is not, let us 3move on. 4MR IRVING: I can only ask the most general questions. I can 5say, Dr Longerich, are you thoroughly content that all the 6documents that come from the Soviet Union ----? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, Mr Irving, that will not do. Are you 8suggesting that it is not an authentic document? If so, 9cross-examine on that basis. If you are not suggesting 10that it is not authentic, then move on. 11MR IRVING: Would you look at the last line on that page 12please: "Jews in Party and State functions". Will you 13not accept that this limits the killing of Jews in this 14document, just the "Jews in Party and State functions"? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I have to go back to this point I made yesterday. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
There is a mistake here and I have to repeat that ---- 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I remember the point. 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The word "all" should be in the first line, so this has to 20be read as: "All Jews and Party and State functions", so 21we know that the Soviet Union was a country where the 22state played an enormous role. So this would apply to, 23let us say, teachers, to every Civil, not only to every 24Civil Servant, it would apply to any manager of a State 25opened shop, for instance. So I think the number is quite 26high, it is several hundred thousand. I forgot to say

. P-68

1when we went through this document yesterday, I think ---- 2MR IRVING: You look at the unsoweiter, do you not? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I forget this yesterday. In the same document Heydrich 4suggested to instigate pogroms. If you have a pogrom you 5cannot actually ---- 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Limit it? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Limit it. You do not have any control about who you are 8going to kill. A pogrom is a wide massacre. So if you 9encourage the local population to organize massacres, you 10do not have any control about the outcome of this 11massacre. So I think I read this, this telegram, or this 12instruction, sorry, actually in this is a kind of 13message. You can kill all Jews of party and state 14function, but there is not a specific definition of the 15people who are going to be killed. Jews, if they are 16suspicious, if they are propagandist, etc., you can also 17go to kill them. There is also a reference in the 18guidelines on page 5, in the guidelines for the troops in 19Russia. These are guidelines which are read out on 20company 11, every company of Wehrmacht. It says in 21sentence 2: "The struggle demands ruthless energetic and 22drastic measures against the Bolsheviks agitators, 23guerrillas, saboteurs and Jews", and Jews. There is 24nothing about Jews in party and state position. So every 25soldier of the Wehrmacht knew that this was a war against 26the Jews, among others.

. P-69

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
It does not say, that paragraph, "You are going kill all 2the Bolsheviks agitators"? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, but it says. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
It says just: "Drastic measures, ruthless"? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Exactly energetic and drastic measures, and we know that 6the Wehrmacht then in the following month was in many 7cases involved in the killing of Jews civilians. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Dr Longerich, I am going to have hold you to the actual 9wording of that July 2nd telegram. I am going to suggest 10strongly that you using the word "all" to embrace all five 11lines is not justified? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is ---- 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
The German is (German spoken). That is the only use of 14the word "all," is it not? 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just look at it on the page. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
In the original the "all" is in the first line. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I am interrupting because we must 18get on. Just look at it on the page. It is page 30. 19MR IRVING: Page? 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is quite impossible to say that "all" ---- 21MR IRVING: Page 30 of what, my Lord? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- this new bundle, reproducing yet again 23most of the documents called N1, it is quite obvious that 24"all" qualifies everybody on the list, including Jews in 25state and party positions. That is beyond argument. Page 2630, bottom of the page.

. P-70

1MR IRVING: If your Lordship wishes then we will move on. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that so clear. 3MR IRVING: Can I just emphasise that the last line in that 4says: "Jews in party and state functions." It does not 5say "all Jews, including those in party and state 6functions", does it? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not know whether I have to repeat this. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
It just says: "All Jews in party and state functions"? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not know whether I have to repeat this, but from the 10German original it is quite clear that the "all" relates 11to all the following categories. So it has to be read 12as "All Jews in party and state functions", that is quite 13clear. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is what I am saying. You do not say that it says: 15"All Jews including those in party"? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, it says: "All Jews in party and state positions". 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which is very limited, is it not? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, in a state which has a state-run economy the number 19is I think relatively, the number is relatively large. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you are including everybody in the entire economy? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
If you have a manager of a firm which belongs to the 22State, he is a functionary of the state. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
The reason I am saying this, Dr Longerich, is because in 24your opening sentence in paragraph 7 on page 7, you say, 25"This order", in other words, this document, "is 26certainly not to be interpreted as meaning that Heydrich

. P-71

1intended to limit the executions to those Jews who held 2party and state functions." Why not? That is precisely 3what it does say? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, I give you the explanation in the following sentence. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which is very much within the guidelines that Hitler had 6laid down, saying: "Kill the Jewish intelligentsia"? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but the fact that also this order relates to other 8radical elements I think makes it quite clear that you 9could kill Jews under other headings than Jews in party 10and state positions. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are relying on that? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
If you look at the Einsatzgruppen reports, they are going 13to kill in the next weeks, they are going to kill Jews who 14were not in state and party positions. They were killing, 15for instance, the Jewish intelligentsia. They were going 16in the following, they were starting in July 1941 to kill 17all men of military age. So I try to interpret this 18instruction in the light of the following events. I think 19from the following events it becomes quite clear that the 20intention of instruction is not to limit the executions to 21Jews in party and state positions. But, let us say, that 22it is the first group where they would start to kill 23people, the first group to start with. You see the 24instructions, I think you have to go back to the context, 25this is a kind of summary of verbal instructions Heydrich 26gave to the Einsatzgruppen, and he is just informing the

. P-72

1highest SS leaders about this verbal instruction. It is a 2summary. We do not have the verbal instructions. We are 3trying to reconstruct the verbal instructions, but I think 4the verbal instructions were different than this here. 5The verbal instructions tended to include more Jews than 6this intention. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
So your paragraph 7 relies on three sources: Verbal 8instructions for which you have no source; the document 9itself and what you know to have happened, in other words, 10presumptions backwards towards the document, so to speak. 11So your opening sentence there about the order is not to 12be interpreted as meaning, is based on more than just the 13document itself? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, give me some time, please. I think I refer here and 15in the following, we have numerous eyewitnesses actually 16who stated, go so far to state after the war that actually 17that these instructions of Heydrich were the order to kill 18all Jews in the Soviet Union. I am trying to, I spent a 19lot of time, I am trying to reconstruct the context of 20these verbal instructions. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you go to the next page, please, and look at your list 22of footnotes on the next page? 23MR RAMPTON: Could I please intervene once again? Mr Irving is 24quite incorrigible. This kind of cross-examination would 25never be permitted in a professional advocate. Can we 26please go back to page 5, paragraph 2, which Mr Irving

. P-73

1leapt over. 2MR IRVING: I am leaping forwards because his Lordship wishes 3to make progress. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are dotting about. I do not find this 5very helpful and I have got well in mind what you said in 6the course of your cross-examination which is why I have 7not highlighted anything for quite a while now. Anyway, 8page 5, Mr Rampton. 9MR RAMPTON: Page 5 which Mr Irving leapt over because it is 10inconvenient for him, paragraph 2 which is a document 11dated 19th May 1941. 12MR IRVING: I think this is a most unhelpful interruption. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: It really flows from the way in which you are 14carrying out your cross-examination. You are dotting 15about the report and you are cherry picking again. 16Mr Rampton is perfectly entitled to say, if you are really 17suggesting, that the instructions to kill the Jews was 18limited as you have just been suggesting to Dr Longerich, 19Mr Rampton is certainly perfectly entitled to say, well, 20you are missing out some of the documents which give the 21full picture. . 22MR IRVING: My Lord, we have dealt with these May and March 23documents exhaustively over the past few days. I am very 24happy to deal with every single document that is mentioned 25in this report, but then once again I will fall foul of 26your Lordships reprimands.

. P-74

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would find it more helpful if you were to 2deal with it not so much by going to individual references 3but at any rate to start by a number of broader brush 4questions. The difficulty in this part of the case is 5that you are shifting your position. I think there is no 6doubt about that. 7MR IRVING: Shifting my position? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 9MR IRVING: I am trying to establish the weaknesses of this 10expert report as well as I can. 11MR RAMPTON: It is not permissible to do that, in my 12submission, by a kind of memory test when the foundation 13for what the witness has said in a later paragraph is to 14be found in an earlier paragraph. It is simply cheating. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Mr Irving, I cannot conduct the 16cross-examination for you. Dr Longerich, do you regard 17the guidelines referred to, the 19th May guidelines, as 18being limited to Jewish intelligentsia, the few holding 19senior positions in the State or in the Party? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I mentioned this before. I said this is the order which 21was read out on company level, so every German soldier was 22aware of these guidelines. It plainly says Jews. It 23refers to energetic and drastic measures against the 24Bolshevik agitators, gorillas, saboteurs, Jews. So Jews 25are here mentioned among partisans and members of the 26Bolshevik Party.

. P-75

1MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord. I will cross-examine on that 2particular document, if your Lordship wishes. Are you 3familiar roughly with the contents of the Kommissar order? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is not the Kommissar order. The Kommissar order is a 5different order. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am asking. Are you familiar roughly with the contents 7of the Kommissar order? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it perfectly explicit about killing, about liquidating 10the Kommissars and Jews and the intelligentsia? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. The Kommissar order only refers to Soviet Kommissars. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
The guidelines of March 1941, do they make it quite plain 13what is going to happen to these enemies of the Nazis when 14they invade Russia? They are going to be liquidated. It 15is quite specific, is it not? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The Kommissar order is quite specific, yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why does this document here then just talk about energetic 18measures, if it is perfectly plain? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The document does not say every German soldier is entitled 20or allowed to kill every Jew on Russian soil. It gives 21them a guideline how to deal with, let us say, suspicious 22people. They are entitled, encouraged, to take the most 23drastic measure. The other important document we have to 24refer to here are the guidelines concerning the military 25jurisdiction in the Soviet Union, which says that no 26German soldier is automatically prosecuted for atrocities

. P-76

1against the Soviet population, so the message is, if you 2feel there is something suspicious going on, you are 3entitled, you are in a way free to take the most drastic 4measures against Bolshevik saboteurs and Jews. So you can 5shoot Jews. It does not say you have to. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
It does not say that. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think it becomes clear. You have to see this document 8in its historical context. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
The context is other documents that quite freely use 10uncamouflaged words. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you are going to have to start 12putting what your case is. I am going to put what 13I understand you to be suggesting. The suggestion -- 14Dr Longerich can deal with it -- is that the 19th May 15guidelines, when they talk of energetic and drastic 16measures against, amongst others, Jews means some measures 17other than killing them. Do you accept that? 18MR IRVING: Not necessarily killing, I would think. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you accept that? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think that the most drastic measures means to kill 21them. This is the most drastic measures I can think of. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is enough. You do not need to embroider 23on that answer. Mr Irving, move on. 24MR IRVING: Does it limit it to killing or does it say any 25measures, though drastic and ruthless? 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think the most drastic measures you can take against

. P-77

1anybody in a war is to kill him or her. I think this is 2quite clear. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there any reason why they should not have said killing 4in that document if that is what they meant? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am sorry? 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there any reason why they should not have used some 7word for killing if that is what they meant? You are 8entitled to execute or to kill while trying to escape or 9whatever other things they would say if they did in the 10other documents? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
We discussed yesterday the use of language and I showed 12you a document which explicitly said that they were 13particularly cautious to use words like liquidation, for 14instance. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you are suggesting that energetic 16and drastic measures means something other than killing. 17Would you like to put to the witness what exactly you are 18suggesting those measures would be? Precisely. 19MR IRVING: Were energetic and drastic measures taken against 20Soviet prisoners of war? 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. That is not what I am asking you to do. 22You are suggesting that energetic and drastic measures 23means something other than killing the Jews and the 24others. What are you suggesting those measures would be? 25MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not think this witness knows. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am asking you to put to the witness what

. P-78

1you say energetic and drastic measures means, if it does 2not mean killing. 3MR IRVING: Is it not possible that, by using the phrase 4energetic and drastic measures, the German Army was 5instructing its lower levels to arrest, imprison under the 6harshest possible conditions, torture, interrogate, beat 7up, deprive of their liberty ---- 8MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, this is perfectly terrible. The 9German does not just say energetic and drastic measures. 10It uses the word rucksichtsloses which is translated as 11ruthless energetic and drastic measures. Now Mr Irving 12ought to ask the question again, in my view. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is slightly my fault. I left out the 14ruthless. 15MR RAMPTON: I know. 16MR IRVING: Start again. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: You do not need to start again. 18Dr Longerich? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, I think the answer is quite clear that in English the 20most ruthless energetic and drastic measures is to kill 21somebody. 22MR IRVING: Yes. But there are other measures which are also 23ruthless and drastic which are not killing, is that right? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes and this is the reason why it said the most drastic. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you now look at paragraph 9, please, on page 7? You 26say that the Einsatzgruppen received explicit orders --

. P-79

1this is quite important, is it not -- to murder Jewish 2civilians, and your evidence for that is -- is it a 3document? Are there any such orders in the archives? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
We went through these orders just five minutes ago, and 5there is additional evidence for that if you look at the 6statements of the leaders of the Einsatzgruppen. I am not 7relying completely on this, but I am trying to put 8together here documents and eyewitness accounts. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Just very briefly, you have listed the eyewitnesses 10on page 8, have you not, in the footnotes? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
These are all testimonies that are over 20 years after the 13event, are they not? Every single one. In some cases 30 14years after the event. Do you attach much reliance on 15that in German courts? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. Most of them are from the 1970s, 1960s and beginning 17of 1970s. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, again I am baffled by this part of 19the case. Are you now suggesting that thousands of Jewish 20civilians were not shot by the Einsatzgruppen? 21MR IRVING: No, my Lord. I am attacking his credibility as a 22witness. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: His credibility? 24MR IRVING: Yes, his. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have just put to him that these 26eyewitnesses who say they saw civilian Jews being killed

. P-80

1are not to be treated as reliable because they gave their 2evidence so long after the event. How does that go to 3this witness's credibility? 4MR IRVING: If I was to write a history based entirely on 5testimonies given in court 30 years after the event, I 6would be derelict. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I repeat, are you suggesting now that 8thousands and thousands of civilian Jews were not executed 9by the Einsatzgruppen? 10MR IRVING: Quite the contrary. We have seen any amount of 11evidence to show that they were. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: So why are you casting doubt on the 13reliability of these eyewitnesses? 14MR IRVING: I am casting doubt on the reliability of the report 15as a whole because it depends on such sources. 16MR IRVING: It does not depend on those sources. It depends 17heavily on the contemporaneous---- 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The report as far as the Einsatzgruppen is concerned is 19based, first of all, on orders. We went through that. 20Then on accounts of eyewitnesses, and then in the next 21chapter I am going in fine detail. I am looking at every 22command and I am showing you, again on the basis of the 23Eichnesmeldung and other sources, that these orders were 24carried out and the Einsatzgruppen killed hundreds and 25thousands of people. I am not relying only on some 26witness statements made in the 1960s in German courts.

. P-81

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving does not seem to be disputing that 2so why we are spending so long on it, I do not know. 3MR IRVING: Let me look at the word orders and ask the specific 4question which I think probably will help the court. Is 5there any suggestion that these orders came from Hitler 6for these particular killings? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Many of these eyewitnesses referred to explicit Fuhrer 8order they got. We are not able to trace this back. 9There is no written evidence for that. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, this is the reason that I asked the earlier 11question. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not accept that, but you have asked a 13relevant question now and I am listening to the answer. 14MR IRVING: It was actually the follow up question in my list. 15I shall have to ask it again. In other words, the only 16evidence which you would advance for any connection 17between this and the Fuhrer, Adolf Hitler, giving such an 18order is eyewitness testimony of 20 or 30 years after the 19event. Is that right? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think we went through this yesterday. The problem is we 21do not have a written explicit order signed by Adolf 22Hitler which says European Jews or the Jews in the Soviet 23Union ---- 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
The answer is yes? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
-- has to be killed. I do not have this document 26unfortunately.

. P-82

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: What we do have -- may I make 2sure I understand your evidence and then we can move on -- 3is the Muller document, which you have given evidence, 4rightly or wrongly, which suggests that Hitler wanted the 5reports from the Einsatzgruppen to go to him, and we have 6at any rate some reports going to Berlin. 7MR IRVING: Munich. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Berlin, which set out in great detail the 9numbers of Jews killed. 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. Yesterday we went through the documents and we had 11Himmler's entry in this diary, 18th December. You will 12recall that. We mentioned briefly the report No. 51 which 13states that actually more than 360,000 Jews were killed 14and so on. So we can make this connection but, as I say, 15there is no explicit order on Hitler's letter head with 16Hitler's signature which actually would say that he is 17ordering the killing of all European Jews. 18MR IRVING: So the answer to my question was yes, in other 19words it is just eyewitness testimony 30 years after the 20event? 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not, for the very reason that he has 22just given, because we have the Muller document followed 23by reports going to Berlin. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, the Muller document is not a Hitler order. It 25shows that Hitler is quoted as saying that he wanted to 26see visual materials relating to the activities of the

. P-83

1Einsatzgruppen. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we went through this. I bear in mind 3the concession you made in your cross-examination and the 4cross-examination yesterday, and I really do not think we 5ought to spend any more time on this. We have a lot of 6ground to cover. 7MR IRVING: On page 10, four lines from the bottom, this goes 8purely to your translation ability, gewalte Ladung, which 9you translate as a massive load. In fact that is a 10military phrase for hand grenade, is it not? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Gewalte Ladung, you put together a dozen or so hand guns, 12this thing about gewalte Ladung. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 12, paragraph 2.12, this is the Jager report. This 14is another document from Soviet archives, is it not? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, available since the beginning of the 1960s. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I am not commenting on it. He talks about 70 Jews 17being killed, 127 Jews. I am sorry, I am back on page 1810. Just one general question: Why is there such a 19disparity in the killing rates or achievements of the 20various Einsatzgruppen, some of them killing tens of 21thousands and some of them just 70 or 100 and so on, if 22there was an overall system from above? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It depends on various factors. For instance, the number 24of Jews who lived in the area where the Einsatzgruppen 25Kommandos were sent to. Then there were two different 26types of Einsatzkommandos and Sonderkommandos. One was

. P-84

. P-84 1attached to the armies and one was actually active in the 2rear areas. Then, during the first month of the killings, 3it is obvious that some of the Kommandos were more 4reluctant to actually kill in large numbers Jews. When 5they went through a kind of learning process they were 6instructed and reminded, so that we have in the end in 7October 1941 a more uniform picture. It depends also on 8the personal initiative of the leader of each Kommandos. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was there any competitiveness between the Einsatzgruppen 10to achieve high body counts? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I would certainly say there was an element of 12competitiveness between them. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very minor point: Would there have been a temptation then 14to inflate figures? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
There might be a temptation to inflate figures, but also, 16on the contrary, we know that the Eichnesmeldung do not 17contain all figures. There are some figures which were 18left out. For instance, other Kommandos reported to 19different institutions and so on, but yes, one cannot 20exclude this factor. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Paragraph 2.1.2, on the Jager report now, it is talking 22about executions that have been taking place since July 234th at Kornas or Kovno. He quite specifically says they 24were carried out upon my orders and my command by the 25Lithuanian Partisans. He is not saying it was done on 26Hitler's orders, is he?

. P-85

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
If you look into, let us say, orders of a Kommando of a 2regiment, of an Army, he would refer to his own orders. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Chain of command, is it not? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is a chain of command, yes. 5MR IRVING: Did Jager get into trouble carrying out any 6killings round about this time in 1941? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Sorry? 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did Jager get into trouble for authorising killings in 91941, the same as Jeckeln? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
As far as I am aware, not. The man who had responsibility 11for killing of German Jews in this area was Jeckeln. We 12know that he got a nasty letter from Himmler and that was 13it. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which we have gone into in some detail. Page 13, line 3: 15What is your evidence that all Jewish men in this age 16group had been murdered? I am looking at your word 17murdered. Surely they might just have been sent off to 18work details or something like that, the fact that they 19had gone? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. The Einsatzgruppen reports refer quite clearly to 21executions, and I think this is something which 22I understood as murder. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
You said that they were just murdering women. Older men 24and children. 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
You suggested that this was proof that all the rest had

. P-86

1been murdered already. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, where are we going with all of 3this? Here we have a whole body of reports from 4Einsatzgruppen A, B, C and D. They all talk of hundreds 5or thousands of people, Jews and others, having been 6killed by them. 7MR IRVING: Yes. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the point of selecting tiny little 9aspects of one or two of those reports? If you are saying 10they made it all up, fine, say so. Put it to the 11witness. But, if you do not say that, let us move on to 12what matters. 13MR IRVING: My point was that he was drawing an unjustified 14inference on the basis of the evidence in front of him. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have accepted, and perhaps you are going 16to resile from this, that hundreds of thousands of Jews 17and others were killed by the Einsatzgruppen. 18MR IRVING: Yes. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why are we going through these reports? I do 20not understand the point. 21MR IRVING: I am trying to shake your Lordship's confidence in 22this witness's ability to draw proper inferences from 23documents before him. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: If there is no dispute between you and the 25witness that there were hundreds of thousands of killings, 26what do I gain from a minute point being taken on a

. P-87

1particular report? 2MR IRVING: The whole report is full of minute points. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you accept there were hundreds of 4thousands of Jews and others killed. 5MR IRVING: Indeed, my Lord. If the report had been written in 6global terms like that, then I would have dealt with it in 7global terms, but he has written an excellent report full 8of mosaic stones. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you do not quarrel with the picture made 10up of all the mosaic. 11MR IRVING: Paragraph 2.2.4 on page 14. Here you are quoting a 12witness called Otto Bradfisch, who says quite clearly 13there was no express order to exterminate the Jewish 14population in a place or area solely because of its racial 15origin. What do you make of that statement? I am looking 16at "no express order". 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, it says here that---- 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have read the whole of it. 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
"To exterminate the Jewish population in a place or area 20solely and alone because of its racial origin". I said in 21the same sentence, "Nevertheless in practice the orders 22given by the EKB as the Einsatzgruppen B were so broadly 23conceived that every Jew was regarded as a danger for the 24fighting troops and therefore to be liquidated". This is 25a statement. So he is saying that we had to find another 26pretext, another cover, to kill them. That is the essence

. P-88

1of this statement, I think. 2MR IRVING: Very well. Dr Longerich, you attach great 3importance, do you not, to this Himmler Hitler 4conversation of December 18th 1941? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think this is quite a remarkable source, yes. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have inferred from that that the als partisan and 7anzusehen is words used by Hitler to Himmler. 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It does not say as partisan and anzusehen. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Ausrottung? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, to be ausrottung as partisans. This is what it says. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, and you considered that phrase is used by Hitler to 12Himmler? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but is it not equally likely that this was a standard 15attitude of Himmler's long before he went to see Hitler, 16that Hitler had always regarded the Jews as partisans and 17to be treated as such? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, I do not read it like this. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I ask you to look at page 15, line 4? You have here 20"Himmler had already expressed on his visit to Galestov 21on July 8th that -- I am quoting now -- basically every 22Jew is to be seen as a partisan". Is that not precisely 23the same phrase? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Your footnote 67 (German) is that not almost exactly the 26same kind of turn of phrase that Hitler has used?

. P-89

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. This line in Himmler's calendar is a confirmation of 2this policy. It is true that Himmler had started this 3policy earlier. He started it in the summer of 1941 and 4I will read this as a final confirmation of this policy by 5Hitler. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
If I take you please to page 22, line 5? 7MR RAMPTON: May I once again ---- 8MR IRVING: Oh dear. Here comes the interruption every time 9I make a point. 10MR RAMPTON: This is going to be a very tedious day if I am 11going to have to keep going back to earlier parts of the 12evidence. If Mr Irving is now saying, as he appears to 13be, that that entry in Himmler's log for 18th December 141941 does not record the substance or result of a 15conversation with Adolf Hitler, he had better put it to 16this witness, because it is new. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: The suggestion that I understand was just 18made is that in his agenda or appointments book Himmler 19jotted down what Hitler had said months or years before. 20MR RAMPTON: I thought until half a minute ago that that had 21been common ground since the beginning of this case. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: So did I. 23MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving is once again shifting his ground. Now 24he must put it to the witness. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, that must have been the thrust of 26your question.

. P-90

1MR IRVING: My Lord, I would find it very helpful if Mr 2Rampton, with his unerring eye, does not always interrupt 3just when I am zeroing in for quite an important point. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have had a huge amount of 5cross-examination on the 18th December document. 6MR IRVING: We now have new material, my Lord. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has not been suggested until now I believe 8that the reference to ausrottung the Jews as partisans was 9something that was not even discussed between Himmler and 10Hitler. 11MR IRVING: That is not the point I make. Can I explain the 12point that I am trying to make? 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, do. 14MR IRVING: If we had just that agenda note in front of us, we 15would be entitled to draw the inference which Mr Rampton 16does that Himmler is writing down an idea expressed and 17initiated by Adolf Hitler. But we here have evidence that 18on two occasions, and this is when I was unfortunately 19interrupted by Mr Rampton, in the summer of 1941 Himmler 20already has that idea embedded firmly in his mind and he 21uses precisely the same turn of phrase when he goes to see 22Hitler, and this may very well have influenced the way he 23recorded the conversation afterwards. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: That, I am afraid, is pure equivocation. 25What do you mean it may have influenced the way he wrote 26his note?

. P-91

1MR IRVING: That he wrote down his own stock phrase rather than 2quoting what Adolf Hitler had said. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you are suggesting that that note does not 4represent something that was discussed between Hitler and 5himself? 6MR IRVING: Certainly they discussed the Jewish problem but 7then Himmler recorded the outcome in his own language 8rather than in Hitler's language, if I can put it like 9that. The fact that it was his own language is also borne 10out on page 22. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us just look at the document. We really 12have to try to see what the case is that is being made. 13Can somebody give me a reference in the new file? Page 14183, I think. 15MR IRVING: 184, my Lord. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: 184, yes, quite right. Now, I had understood 17the case has proceeded so far on the basis that, and there 18is a much better copy of this document somewhere than 19this, on the left-hand side -- Mr Irving, would you 20answer the question I am going to ask you at the end of 21this -- Himmler had written down as being the topic he 22was proposing to raise with Hitler when he saw him 23"Judenfrager". 24MR IRVING: Yes. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: And that, and this is what I understood to be 26accepted up until now, the different notation als partisan

. P-92

1and ausrottung was what Himmler had written ---- 2MR IRVING: Subsequently. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- Following his discussion about that very 4topic with Hitler. 5MR IRVING: Very well. Yes, precisely. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are now suggesting -- tell me if I am 7wrong about this -- that als partisan ausrottung has 8nothing to do with any discussion between Himmler and 9Hitler, it is something that Himmler recalled Hitler 10having said some time before. Is that your case now? 11MR IRVING: No, my Lord. It is completely wrong, completely 12different from what I am suggesting. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I do not understand what you are putting 14to the witness. 15MR IRVING: What I am suggesting is that Himmler went to see 16Hitler with Judenfrager written down in his appointment 17book. Subsequently he wrote down the words als partisan 18and ausrotten, but this was his own phrase that he wrote 19down, because it was a phrase that he had used very 20similarly already twice that summer to summarize the 21conversation. It is very dangerous trying to extrapolate 22just on the basis of four words anyway precisely what 23happened in a conversation that only lasted 10 or 20 24minutes. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: So are you or are you not saying that the 26notion of killing the Jews as partisans was something that

. P-93

1was discussed and agreed between Hitler and Himmler? 2MR IRVING: Yes. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: You accept it was discussed and agreed 4between Hitler and Himmler? 5MR IRVING: Yes. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I do not understand what you are seeking 7to suggest to this witness. We now have that clear so we 8can move on. 9MR IRVING: After that successful interruption by Mr Rampton 10I will not take your Lordship to page 22 where he used it 11a second time. Page 17 on line 7 after the words, "about 127,000 Jews were collected and shot by the security police 13in retribution for these inhuman atrocities", you have 14omitted quite a lengthy passage there, have you not, from 15that report? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. This is why I put these three dots in the text after 17"atrocities". 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Do you recall offhand what the lengthy passage? Was 19it a description of the atrocities in great detail? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I cannot recall at the moment but we probably have the 21document there. 22MR IRVING: My Lord, in the interests of making forward 23progress I do not think I am going to press this point. 24It is a four page description of atrocities committed on 25the Ukranians which were discovered by the Germans when 26they arrived. Obviously the Germans ran berserk. It

. P-94

1probably does not -- why did you omit this very lengthy 2passage? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not see the point you are making here. They were 4atrocities from the -- where are we here? 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
In July 1941. 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
In Lobov, yes, so there were atrocities committed by the 7Soviet NKVD against Ukranians and, as a result of this, 8the Einsatzgruppen C shot 7,000 Jews. So I do not see the 9point between the actions and the so-called retaliation 10actions. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the suggestion must be this, 12Dr Longerich, that these 7,000 Jews had all been involved 13in some way in the atrocities on the Ukrainians and 14therefore, in a sense, the shooting of them by the 15security police was justified. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. This was a massacre among the Jewish population of 17this town. We have details about the way it was carried 18out. There was nothing like a kind of identifying of 19every of the 7,000 as perpetrators, as one of the people 20actually who instigated ---- 21MR IRVING: Was it an active retribution then? 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Retribution directed against the Jewish population, so it 23was part of the systematic killing, guided out under the 24pretext of a retaliation action. If you read the whole 25thing, there is nothing in this text which indicates that 26there was a kind of extermination done by the

. P-95

1Einsatzgruppen to identify among the 7,000 Jews the people 2who might have been responsible for thee atrocities. The 3idea that they started retaliations against the Jews for 4something the NKVD did, this is the kind of question. 5This shows actually that this is a part of the war of 6racist extermination. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. So, when you write on line 4 of page 19, that this 8use of retribution was just a pretence ---- 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is a very interesting example. "In German's polar city 10a quarter of whose population was Jewish in the last few 11days, especially the Jewish women, have shown imprudent 12and arrogant behaviour because of limitations imposed upon 13them. They tore their own and their children's clothes 14off their bodies. As provisional retribution the Kommando 15which arrived for the purpose of re-establishing the peace 16shot 50 male Jews". So I think you get a very good 17insight into this kind of retribution or retaliation. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does this kind of thing happen in wars like Vietnam and 19elsewhere? Is there a lot of brutality on both sides? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am not an expert on the Vietnam war. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am at a total loss to understand why we are 22going through the detail of the shooting when you accept 23that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed by the 24Einsatzgruppen. I do not understand the point, Mr Irving. 25MR IRVING: The reason for asking that is that the witness has 26left out a four page description in the most hideous and

. P-96

1ghastly detail of what the Germans found when they got to 2the town. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: So it served the 7,000 Jews right, did it? 4MR IRVING: He then suggests that the word "retribution" was 5unjustified. He says here that the retribution was just a 6pretext. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, exactly. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Having left out all the evidence that it was not. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I will simply say to you now that 10you are not serving your own cause well by taking up time 11quite pointlessly on these sorts of questions. 12MR IRVING: Well, risking your Lordship's wrath, I am going to 13go to page 22, which is something different, line 5. 14Again, you have Himmler saying basically every Jew is to 15be regarded as a partisan. So I must insist therefore 16that the December 18th document shows the initiative came 17from Himmler and not from Hitler to regard the Jews as 18partisans, because this is Himmler stating already back in 19July. He keeps on saying this, that the Jews are to be 20regarded as partisans, so what Hitler may then discuss 21with Himmler in December is neither here nor there 22really. Would you agree? 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is a new proposition. 24MR IRVING: Well, my Lord perhaps I am expressing myself 25wrongly. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was discussed between Himmler and Hitler

. P-97

1but that it is neither here nor there? 2MR IRVING: No. The proposition that I am making, my Lord, is 3that the initiative for regarding the Jews as partisans 4came not from Hitler to Himmler, but the other way round. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not suppose Mr Rampton is particularly 6bothered one way or the other. The point he makes is that 7Hitler agreed upon it as a policy. Am I wrong about 8that? 9MR RAMPTON: I do not care whether Hitler initiated it or 10whether he ratified it. It does not matter a row of 11beans. The fact is he was in on it, in on the murder of 121.2 million innocent people. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is the point, Mr Irving. 14MR IRVING: The reason that it matters a row of beans is 15because we are looking at Hitler's state of mind and if, 16as in the Reichskristallnacht, the initiative for that 17came from Goebbels, and the initiative for this comes from 18Himmler, tells us something about the likelihood of 19issuing orders, particularly when in the spring of 1942 we 20find a weary Fuhrer saying, "For God's sake, let us leave 21it all until the war is over". It helps to justify that. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: The issue between the parties which I have to 23consider in the context of whether you have dealt with 24this responsibly is not whether it was initiated, all this 25killing, by Hitler, but whether he knew about it. We are 26on Hitler's knowledge, not on whether he was the

. P-98

1originator of all this. 2MR IRVING: My Lord, I wholeheartedly endorse the position that 3your Lordship adopts on that and your Lordship will see 4from the position that I put in the two pages this morning 5that I have never challenged that he was involved in every 6way in the killing of the Jews behind the Eastern Front. 7However, when this goes to Hitler's's state of mind, so 8that we can judge the likelihood of the Schlegelberger 9document being an accurate portrayal of his intentions or 10not, then I am entitled to draw attention to whether the 11initiative came from Himmler or from Hitler on this 12particular occasion, I think, if I can put it like that. 13I regret if I am expressing myself so obscurely that your 14Lordship does not see the purpose behind my questions 15sometimes. 16 Page 23, paragraph 2.7.2, it goes really to the 17same matter. "These shootings were carried out", you 18write, "under the pretext of 'retribution', punishment for 19'plundering' or portrayed as a struggle against 20partisans". If there was a Fuhrer order to kill Jews, why 21would they need the pretexts? Surely, that would 22overwrite any need for any kind of pretext, would it not, 23if the eyewitnesses are right? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, they in their reports prefer to give specific 25reasons for the killing. They were not just saying, "We 26are killing these people because they are Jews". They

. P-99

1had, obviously, there was a kind of order to actually 2attach to each killing a kind of reason which could be, a 3kind of rational argument, you know, why they killed this 4particular group. They do not -- in their reports they do 5not refer to a written order by Hitler in these reports. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
But when Eisenhower gave orders to kill all the Germans, 7as he did, he did not say, "We are going to do this as a 8pretext that they are plundering and looting" ---- 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I cannot comment on ---- 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- the orders from the Supreme Commander were good 11enough? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I cannot comment on Eisenhower. I am not familiar with 13the order given by Eisenhower to kill all the Germans, 14sorry. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
The first two lines of page 24, please. You say: "The 16behaviour of the units followed a standardized pattern 17which however was not altogether uniform". Does that not 18suggest that there was no system, that there was no 19systematic order? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I mean, I spent here about 20 pages to describe the 21actions of the different Kommandos and, as you rightly 22say, there are, for instance, some differences so far as 23the numbers of victims is concerned, when actually 24Kommando A started to kill women and Kommando B started to 25kill women. So I think one can argue that there is a 26standardised pattern but it is not completely uniform.

. P-100

1They did not start on the same day, on the very same day, 2for instance, the killing of children. It varies a little 3bit between unit and unit. So I preferred this phrase 4"pattern". It is not completely uniform. But it is a 5standardized pattern. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
But not very systematic? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is a standardized pattern and I think it allows us to 8say that this was a part of a system. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 26, the first three lines, we are dealing now with an 10explicit order of Himmler which, I suppose, is of 11significance. You say this is an explicit of 12Himmler. "All Jews must be shot. Jewish women to be 13driven into the swamp"? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
You say: "From a radio telegraph text we can read this". 16Now, what is your source for that? Is it the actual radio 17telegraph text? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, the radio telegraph text is quoted in the wording of 19the branch(?) record. The whole files of the branch 20record are kept in the State archive of [German]. I spent 21two days this summer actually to read this source and 22I can assure you that this document is in the files of 23this particular court case. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it an actual radio telegraph text or something recorded 25by or ---- 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, actually it is a copy ----

. P-101

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- remembered by? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
--- of the radio telegraph text. The original is kept in 3the military archive in Feiberg. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have not provided the German text for us so it is ---- 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, I have not provided the German text for it. 6MR RAMPTON: My Lord, we have got the text. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would like to see it. 8MR IRVING: It is quite important. 9MR RAMPTON: I do not know which report this comes from, it 10might be Longerich, it might be Browning. I really cannot 11say. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is important because I think it is 13Mr Irving's present position that there was never a stage 14when all Jews were ordered to be shot. 15MR RAMPTON: Which document is it? 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is note 119, top of page 26. 17MR RAMPTON: Yes, well, then the date is 1st August, same day 18as the Muller order. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not in N1, I do not think. 20MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is page 48. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry. I missed it. 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, 48. That is it, yes. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have looked at this before. 24MR RAMPTON: I do not know what this document is, mind, but the 25witness could tell us that, I expect. 26MR IRVING: It appears to be a genuine carbon copy, does it

. P-102

1not? Yes, a carbon copy of a document. 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, I recall that in the -- I have seen the copy. This 3is here a [German]. This is the German, the document, 4this is the standard German form for a radio message. So 5the document is there and I have seen that and there is no 6doubt that this is authentic. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is very difficult to cross-examine on this document 8because it is so skimpy. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will have to put your case. 10MR IRVING: I have to. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you saying that Himmler ---- 12MR IRVING: Are you satisfied that this document accurately 13reflects an order of Heinrich Himmler? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. He was there, he was there. At this stage he was in 15the appropriate marches. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Who is the SS Obersturmfuhrer who is an adjutant who has 17signed this document, to your knowledge? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is in the -- the court managed to identify this man. 19I cannot recall the name at the moment. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was he on Himmler's staff on or somebody else's staff? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is -- no, he is the adjutant of the Reitenabteilung. 22The Reitenabteilung, this is the cavalry, the mounted 23cavalry, battalion actually of this SS cavalry regiment. 24The name of the adjutant is known and I just not recall 25the name at the moment, but he was identified in the court 26proceedings.

. P-103

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
The question I am asking is, he is not Himmler's adjutant 2who is sending the order? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, but Himmler was there. At this time he actually gave 4the order verbally and this was then included into this 5telegram and the message was sent. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
What was the range of this order, do you think? Did it 7relate just to the activities of this particular mounted 8unit? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, this relates ---- 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Mounted troop? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This relates clearly to the killing, systematic killing, 12of Jews in the -- this was what they called a pacification 13action, and these are the guidelines given for this 14pacification action to actually, well, clean the 15appropriate swamps. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. So we are actually referring to the Pripyat marshes 17then? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am trying to be as objective as possible. I cannot say 19that this is -- you cannot read it as a general, you 20cannot read it as a general order. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
My question was, what was the range of the order? Was it 22just directed to this one troop, this one mounted troop, 23all Jews within their reach, presumably? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, it was actually an order given here to the mounted 25elements, so that is the best translation of the cavalry 26Regiment 2. These were about, I think, 800 or 1,000 men

. P-104

1and they carried then out this action. And you can see 2I have quoted this on page 25, this was part of the action 3to kill, in which they killed 14,178 Jews, as they 4reported. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you familiar with the scale of partisan warfare in the 6Pripyat marshes? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
At this stage, at this very early stage, at the beginning 8of August, there was actually the scale of partisan 9activity in the Pripyat marshes was low. What actually 10happened was that some actually, well, some soldiers of 11the Red Army managed to get into the Pripyat marshes and 12tried to hide there. But the partisan activity was at 13this stage relatively low compared with what would happen 14in '42 or'43. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Had Marshal Stalin issued early in July a broadcast 16proclamation to the entire Russian civilian population to 17rise up in arms against the invaders? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, that is true, but, on the other hand, they were no 19organization and preparation made for this kind war, so 20they had to improvise that and they were at this stage not 21actually able to fight an organized partisan warfare 22against the Germans. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the suggestion is, just so that it is 24clear, that the 14,000 odd Jews who were shot following 25this order were justifiably shot because they were 26partisans?

. P-105

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, the report makes a distinction between partisans and 2Jews, so they were -- it is clear that the Jews were 3killed in the course of anti-partisan action, but they 4were not identified as partisans. 5MR IRVING: My Lord, I am not making that suggestion. The only 6substantive question I do want answered properly is what 7was the scope of the order to kill all the Jews? Was it 8just all the Jews within the operational area of this one 9mounted troop? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, the problem is, this is not a mounted troop. It is 11the fighting elements of a regiment. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Reitenabteilung" is a mounted troop. 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, so this is, well, quite, this has quite a size, this 14mounted element, and this is one document we have where 15Himmler is very explicit. We know that he travelled 16through the occupied territories quite frequently and here 17we have actually this document, and I think it is a clear 18indication what he was saying to the other units during 19these other visits. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Here we have one case where we actually have written 22evidence for that. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but you appreciate the reason I am asking the 24question, Dr Longerich, is if a signal is shown to us 25saying that Himmler has ordered all the Jews are to be 26shot, we want to know is he talking about all the Jews

. P-106

1within the Third Reich or just all the Jews within 2the ---- 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have your answer about that. It is 4limited. 5MR IRVING: If the answer is clear. Very well. Page 35, 6please. Does this not strike you as remarkable, 7Dr Longerich, that every time we get an order from the 8Fuhrer, that there is a Fuhrer befehl, it turns out to be 9testimony 17 or 20 or 30 years later and there is nothing 10at all in the documents, even though we have seen 11documents like the one we have just been looking at, which 12talk about Himmler orders, there is nothing of a similar 13quality talking about a Hitler order? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
You are referring to a particular part of this page or? 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 35, line 1. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, well, to make this -- I mean, I think I made my point 17very clear. I am trying here in this report, I am trying 18to show you that this was carried out on a systematic 19basis and, in order to link these events with Hitler's 20role, I think we -- this has been said yesterday -- have 21this Muller letter from 1st August which shows us that 22Hitler was quite aware of what was going on because he got 23on a continuous basis, he get the Einsatzgruppen meldung. 24And I think this is quite clear that he was informed about 25it. 26 I do not say, did not say, that I have here an

. P-107

1explicit order with a letter head of Adolf Hitler and the 2signature which says that he orders the killing of the 3Russian Jews, but I think it has been established here, 4quite clearly, that he was informed about these events. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
I do not want to labour the point too much, but we do have 6now, and we have been having it for the last four or five 7weeks, document after document of this quality which 8incriminates Himmler and people like him, but not one 9single document of equal quality which incriminates 10Hitler. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am sorry to intervene again. You 12have made that point many, many times. It is accepted by 13Dr Longerich that there is not a Hitler Befehl in relation 14to these shootings. He has made it absolutely clear why 15he says that Hitler knew and approved what was going on. 16MR IRVING: On the basis of the Muller document ---- 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is no point in asking that same 18question again and again. I know your point, there is not 19a Hitler order that anyone has found, so you need not ask 20that question again. I have the point. There is not a 21Hitler order. 22MR IRVING: Although, logically, there should be one found. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, there are all sorts of reasons why 24there may not be one, but there is not one. That is the 25point and you can, of course, develop that in your closing 26submissions. There no point in going on asking the

. P-108

1question because you get the same answer that I think I 2have heard three times from this witness already. 3MR IRVING: The actual question was, is it not remarkable it is 4always testimony 20 or 30 years after the event, like this 5one here, which links it to a Hitler order which is 6self-serving testimony. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I would not agree this is, you cannot say this is all 8self-serving testimony because some of the people 9interrogated are eyewitnesses, but this report is about 10the systematic nature. The first report we discussed 11yesterday is about Hitler's role. The aim of the report 12is to show you, give you an idea, about the systematic 13nature of this warfare. It is not the intention of this 14part of this report to actually prove Hitler's role. 15I mean, it is not the focus of the point. It is the one 16we discussed yesterday. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
For example, in this same paragraph, 3.3.2, if you would 18just go back over the page to the bottom of page 34, it is 19the indication that the order came from Ohlendorf. Was 20Ohlendorf dead at the time of this testimony? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Dead? 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. In 1969 he was dead, was he not? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. He was hanged in '48, was he not? 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you ever get to see the private papers of Ohlendorf? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, they are not, I think, as far as I am aware, they are 26not publicly accessible.

. P-109

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
His widow has them. 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. I know -- yes, sorry. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
So once again they are saying, "Well, the other person who 4knew, he is dead, unfortunately", so it is a very shaky 5kind of testimony, is it not, so far as Adolf's 6responsibility is concerned? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is, I mean, what I did here, I based this on an 8analysis of the ereignismeldung and on -- and, in 9addition, on the basis of evidence we have from 10testimonies. I think it is my obligation, my duty, to 11look at this testimony. I just cannot ignore them. 12Ohlendorf made, and I mention in the report here, he made 13quite remarkable statements. He never -- I mean, he was 14hanged by the Americans, but he never actually disputed 15the fact that his Einsatzgruppen killed 10,000 of Jews. I 16mean, this was, because this was confronted with the 17evidence which the ereignismeldung contained ---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
We do not dispute that either here. 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
--- he did not dispute it. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you also rely on the ereignismeldung, but you said 21yesterday that only one of them shows it was sent to the 22Party Chancellory in Munich which is not exactly proof 23that Hitler saw it, is it? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, we went through this when I think I made it quite 25clear that not every ereignismeldung has a list of 26distribution, and I do not have a full picture of to whom

. P-110

1it was sent. Munich and Berlin, I made this quite clear 2that the Munich office had a liaison office in Berlin, so 3I do not think this is a ---- 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Hitler was in East Prussia, was he not? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but, of course, then Bormann was constantly in his -- 6it was Bormann policy to be constantly in close with 7Hitler so in order to inform him about everything which he 8thought he has to be informed of. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you go to page 40, please, the third paragraph? This 10is a general statement which is quite useful. In the fall 11of 1941, the autumn of 1941, you say: "The Nazi regime 12began to deport Jews from Central Europe into the Eastern 13European ghettos. From statements by leading 14representatives of the regime it becomes clear that at 15this point in time the intention was to deport these 16people further to the East following upon a victory over 17the Soviet Union". 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is that still your position now? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you found it, my Lord? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you. 23MR IRVING: That is a very useful summary of the position in 24the autumn of 1941. You are talking about September, 25October 1941? 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes.

. P-111

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
And at that time the Nazi leadership, Hitler, Himmler, 2everybody else was talking, was ---- 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, to deport these people further to the East, and what 4would happen to the people then further in the East? I do 5not have -- my argument here is that this intention to 6send them further to the East had clearly genocidal 7implication. They would perish there in the East, but 8they postponed this because originally they thought they 9had this area under control in the autumn of 1941. Now 10they realised they had not won the war, so they sent these 11people first to ghettos in the East and with the intention 12to send them further to the east, let them perish until 13next spring. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
You quote the Greiser letter, do you not, on the following 15page? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
For instance, the Greiser letter, yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Can I just offer a different translation of that 18first paragraph? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, where is that, please? 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
The different translation that I offer is in the little 21bundle, page 13. 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
"The Fuhrer wishes that from the West to the East" -- do 24you want to follow the German one? 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just a minute. I have not found this. 26MR IRVING: This is September 18th 1941.

. P-112

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: That I think is not -- yes, it is, 84. 2MR IRVING: "The Fuhrer wishes that from the" -- I would like 3this one actually put in the bundle actually. It is a 4better translation. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is in there. I think it is 84 or 6am I wrong? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
84. 8MR IRVING: Mine is, I think, a slightly preferable translation 9of a rather complicated sentence. "The Fuhrer wishes that 10from the West to the East, the Altreich" the old Reich, 11"and the Protectorate be emptied and freed of Jews as 12soon as possible. Initially, therefore, and during the 13course of this year, if possible, I am striving as a first 14stage to transport the Jews out of the Altreich and the 15Protectorate into the Eastern territories newly 16accessioned by the Reich two years ago, and then to deport 17them even further to the East early next year. I intend 18to convey about 60,000 Jews of the Altreich and 19Protectorate into the Litzmannstadt ghetto for the winter 20which has, so I hear, the space to accommodate them". 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, I think there are two mistakes in your translation. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Right. 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
First of all, you translated, it said in the text here, 24"nachsten Fruhjahr", next spring, you said "early next 25year". 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Fruhjahr" is not necessarily spring. "Fruhling" is

. P-113

1spring, is it not? "Fruhjahr" is ---- 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. "Fruhjahr" and "Fruhling" is the same. It has the 3same meaning. "Early next year" is quite misleading, but 4"early next year" could be read as January, for 5instance. 6 The second mistake you make, if you look at the 7last sentence here, or not the last sentence, the sentence 8before the last sentence, it says in the German text:"Ich 9beabsichtige, in das Litzmannstadter Getto, das, wie ich 10hore, an Raum aufnahmefahig ist, rund 60,000 Juden des 11Altreichs und des Prtektorats fur den Winter zu 12verbringen". 13 So you say here in your translation, "I intend 14to convey about 60,000 Jews of the Altreich and 15Protectorate in the to Litzmannstadter ghetto for the 16winter which has, so I hear, the space to accommodate 17them". So in the German text it is only -- the German 18text only says which is as I translated it here in my 19translation which has at best -- so it does not say in the 20text, in the German text -- in the German text it only 21says it is "aufnahmefahig". It does not say that it is 22specifically "aufnahmefahig had space for them". It only 23says "aufnahmefahig". 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, if it says "an Raum aufnahmefahig", surely, the 25inference is that it has adequate space for this task? 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but it also could receive more people.

. P-114

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Now, what is the purpose of that letter from Himmler 2to Greisler? Is it camouflage or can we believe what he 3is writing? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think one can basically believe what he is writing. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
So at this time, September 18th, there is no homicidal 6intent towards the European Jews? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I said this, I think I made this quite clear in my 8statement: "From statements by leading representatives of 9the regime it is clear at this point in time the intention 10was to deport these people further to the East following 11up a victory over the Soviet Union". So I draw the 12conclusion from the sentence it was the intention to send 13them further to the East. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but there is no camouflage intended in the document. 15There are none of these camouflage words we have heard so 16much about in that paragraph. What Himmler wrote to 17Greiser there is meant, the German Jews, the European 18Jews, are going to be shipped out to the East. No one is 19paying much attention to what is going to happen when they 20get there. No one cares really what happens to them in 21their new existence? 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
So any decision must have come after that in September 241941. It is an important document, is it not? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, the document says that the Jews are sending, are 26sent to the ghetto and then in the next spring they will

. P-115

1be sent further to the East. So that ---- 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you go to page 42 of your report: "On 6th October 3Hitler emphasised that all Jews from the Protectorate 4needed to be 'removed' - and not into the 5Generalgouvernement first, but - 'straight on to the 6East'. That is also part of the same kind of picture, is 7it not, the East? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Now, I think that you and I are agreed that sometimes the 10Germans used the phrase "the East" in a sinister sense, is 11that right? They say "the East" and, in fact, they mean 12to perdition, to their ---- 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but here I think, I am in a way very cautious in 14interpreting the language here, and I say I think it is 15meant here that they are simply sent to the East, to 16ghettos and to camps to the East. So the East is here, 17obviously, the Generalgouvernement. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
We are going to be looking this afternoon at some 19documents about people who were sent to Auschwitz ready 20for being sent on to the East or, at any rate, and 21obviously I am going to be asking your interpretation of 22those documents ---- 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well... 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- which is quite an important point. 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
We are here in a phase where actually in three waves 26German Jews are sent to ghettos in occupied Poland and the

. P-116

1occupied Soviet Union. The first wave goes to Losch, the 2second wave to Riga and Minsk and the third wave in the 3there spring of 1942 goes to ghettos in the district of 4Lublin. What has happened to the people is they are not, 5in general, killed on the spot. So they survive for a 6couple of weeks, probably a couple of months, until spring 71942 and then they killed them on a systematic basis by 8sending them to extermination camps or by gassing them. 9 So we are in a kind of transitional phase here 10we they are still not prepared to kill then on the spot, 11except the six trains we discussed yesterday. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: But can I just ask you this? It is not just 13German Jews that are being talked of in 6th October 14document, is it? It is all European Jews. 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, Germany is here in the sense of a greater Germany, 16so this includes the annexed territories, Austria, the 17Czech Jews as well which is a project of ---- 18MR IRVING: Just in a vague sense, a general question, did the 19Nazis in some way regard the European Jews as being more 20valuable material than the Russian Jews, Eastern Jews? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not know what you mean with "valuable material". 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, preserved -- there is a point in preserving them 23whereas they did not care what happened to the Eastern 24Jews. 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Generally speaking, they made a kind of distinction 26between the Eastern Jews and the Western Jews.

. P-117

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
It was never actually spelt out in a document, but this is 2the inference we can draw, is it not, from the document? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, it is spelt out in documents but they made, in 4general, in their anti-Semitic -- in the anti-Semitic way 5they looked at this since they make this different 6sometimes, yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am going to ask one more brief question before the 8adjournment, my Lord. Page 45, paragraph 15. You say: 9"Rademacher still assumed at the end of October 1941 that 10the Serbian Jews would be 'removed by water transport into 11the transition camps'", the "Auffanglager im Osten", "in 12the East". So there was this kind of perception among the 13top level Nazis involved in the programme, in the system, 14that there were reception camps in the East to which these 15European Jews were going to be shipped. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I only say that Rademacher in this letter obviously 17assumed that they would be removed by ship in the 18transition camps in the East. I am not, I cannot, I do 19not want to comment on general perception of this, but 20I think Rademacher was probably convinced that this would 21happen. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, over the page, paragraph 16, you raise the matter 23which I have just raised a couple of minutes ago: "Was 24the deportation of Jews 'to the East' at this time already 25a metaphor for the planned murder in the extermination 26camps?" You say, quite frankly: "The state of

. P-118

1contemporary research does not give sufficient evidence". 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what he said. It is a transitional 3phase. I think that is his evidence. 4MR IRVING: Yes. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: 2 o'clock. 6(Luncheon adjournment) 7(2.00 p.m.) 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 9MR IRVING: Thank you, my Lord. My Lord, I can say the 10Defendants' solicitors have very diligently got on to the 11Wolff document and there is one minor snag over the date, 12but I am sure we will have it at the end of the weekend. 13I cannot do better than that. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say they got on to it, is it 15physically in court? 16MR RAMPTON: Munich cannot find any Wolff testimony for the 17date, which is 11th May 1952. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am glad we have---- 19MR IRVING: They are responding positively. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- tried to find out what the position 21actually is. 22MR IRVING: I just hope I did not leave anything important out, 23of course, but I am sure I did not. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we all remember that I would like to know 25what the outcome of it all is. 26MR IRVING: I think it is an important document and, as your

. P-119

1Lordship knows, I relied on it quite heavily at the time. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: From your point of view, it is an important 3document. 4MR RAMPTON: I do not understand why it is, if I may say so at 5this stage, so terribly important in Mr Irving's mind if 6the testimony of von dem Bach-Zelewski must be dismissed 7out of hand because it is postwar. 8MR IRVING: You have pre-empted me. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is another point about it which I think 10we ought all to bear in mind, which is that it was not 11actually available to you, Mr Irving, as I understand it, 12when you wrote your book because I think you said it had 13been supplied by a lawyer in Dusseldorf. 14MR IRVING: It very definitely was, my Lord. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was? I see. 16MR IRVING: Oh yes. That is part of my original research. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: But it was not in your discovery, was it? 18MR IRVING: It was in a big box called documents on the 19Judenfrager which they had copied in its entirety. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought you told me this morning it was not 21in your discovery. 22MR RAMPTON: The note was, but not the document. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will revert to that on Monday. 24MR IRVING: This is one reason of course why I mentioned 25Bach-Zelewski because, if my use of Karl Wolff is impugned 26as a source, who did not have the death of millions or

. P-120

1thousands of people on his conscience ... 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, back to Dr Longerich. 3MR IRVING: Back to the document, my Lord. The progress we 4have made is we are now at page 40 or 45 of an 80 page 5document approximately, so we have managed to chew our way 6halfway through the document. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: But the bit that needs more chewing is the 8latter part rather than the earlier part but there we 9are. Let us press on. 10MR IRVING: Have I heard that before in connection with other 11documents? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 13MR IRVING: Dr Longerich, are you familiar with a Canadian 14historian Michael Marrus? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
He is a reputable historian, is he not? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Absolutely. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
He has written an article on the history of the Holocaust 19in the Journal of Modern History. I am just going to read 20one and a half sentences to you. He cautions that 21Hitler's rhetoric about the Jews should not be seen as 22what he calls a preview of Auschwitz. He adds "The Nazi 23leader always spoke in the most cataclysmic terms, was 24forever calling for the most drastic action, the most 25ruthless stroke". Would you like to comment on Marrus's 26view therefore that Hitler sometimes was a loud mouth?

. P-121

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you read Marrus's book? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This was a quotation one and a half sentences from an 3article, I cannot recall-----. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a book, I think. 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
He has written a book and articles. 6MR IRVING: It is the Journal of Modern History. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I cannot recall the content at the moment so I am really 8hesitating to comment on a very short quote from either a 9book or a lengthy article with about 25 or so pages. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Suppose I said it now. Suppose I said it and not Michael 11Marrus, that the Nazi leader Hitler always spoke in the 12most cataclysmic terms and was forever calling for the 13most drastic action, the most ruthless stroke, would you 14say that I was wrong? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is a very general statement. I would see more 16evidence. To which quotations are you referring? Can you 17give me some help here? 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
The famous quotation throughout the war where he said 19September 1st 1939, did he not? That one. 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
If you refer, for instance, to speeches about vernichtung 21ausrotten which he repeated, yes, then it is of course 22true. Of course he was a politician and he made sure that 23he addressed the right audience. On some occasions he 24would just use drastic language, but on other occasions he 25would be very different. It always depends on the 26circumstances, on the audience he was addressing.

. P-122

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Like most politicians, they say what the audience wants to 2hear. One of the basic rules of politics, is that right? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I cannot lecture on the basic rules of politics. I think 4I should only refer to the Nazi regime. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Just going back briefly to page 40, this general 6statement, you said in the middle of the third paragraph 7that, "In the fall of 1941 the Nazi regime began to deport 8the Jews from central Europe to the Eastern European 9ghettoes. From statements by leading representatives of 10the regime it becomes clear that at this point the 11intention was to deport the people further to the East 12upon a victory over the Soviet Union rather than 13exterminating them where they were". 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The fact that I said to deport them does not of course 15exclude that at the next step they were going to liquidate 16them. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Do you mean, by saying that, that at this time there 18were only orders for the deportation, there were no orders 19for extermination at that time, German government orders? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
When you refer to orders, then the orders were clear about 21the deportation. But of course it has to be seen in the 22context of a wider policy, and I think the aim of this 23policy was in the end to bring about a physical end of the 24life of these human beings. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are familiar with the fact that your colleagues, for 26example Professor Browning, suggest that the German

. P-123

1government had decided on extermination by the autumn of 21941 and that deportation was for the purpose of 3extermination? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
There is a certain kind of disagreement among historians 5about this. We are in a research process and there is an 6agreement. Some historians would suggest summer 1941. 7Christopher Browning among others would say autumn 1941. 8I have a different theory about this decision making 9process. I think some of the decisions were made, but not 10all decisions were made at this stage. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you reject the judgment in the Eichmann trial in 12Jerusalem which said that the deportation of the central 13European Jews to Riga and Minsk which began around this 14time was specifically for the purpose of extermination? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think if I should comment on the wording of the Eichmann 16trial, I should have the text of the wording in front of 17me. But, in general, it was not the intention, according 18to my research, to kill these people immediately after 19arrival. There is of course a difference. Of course, in 20the long term the intention was to let these people, let 21us say it this way, perish in these areas, but there was 22no policy, according to my research, at this relatively 23early stage to kill them immediately after arrival. We 24discussed yesterday the case of the six trains and 25Himmler's reactions to that. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
To pick up something you said a few seconds ago, you said

. P-124

1there is still something of a dispute, quite a genuine 2dispute, between historians of one school and historians 3of the other school, and it would be quite improper, would 4it not, to call the people who disagree with you a 5Holocaust denier? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Absolutely. There is a certain kind of disagreement but, 7on the other hand, we all respect each other's views. 8I would not call anybody, any of my colleagues like 9Christopher Browning, a Holocaust denier. It would be 10absurd. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
You save that phrase for somebody whose views you do not 12respect? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. That is for somebody who just makes general sweeping 14statements, just not accepting historical facts, not 15basing his expertise on thoroughly reading and analysis of 16documents. One has to make a strong point here. There is 17a strong difference between a discussion among colleagues, 18among historians, and between historians and Holocaust 19deniers, if you want to say so. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dr Longerich, am I right in understanding you 21to be saying that the disagreement between historians is 22as to when there was an transition from deportation to 23extermination? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Not whether there was? 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No.

. P-125

1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Is that correct? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The question is that the dispute is about whether it is 3possible to establish a certain day when Hitler made the 4decision, is it possible and, if it is possible, when was 5this specific decision. 6Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
It is the timing? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, the timing. Nobody in our profession would dispute, 8come to this absurdity to dispute actually that the 9Holocaust happened. 10MR IRVING: My Lord, it may help your Lordship if I say that 11during the course of the afternoon I will occasionally ask 12that question, does this dispute constitute a Holocaust 13denial? 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is a perfectly proper question. 15MR IRVING: If you think it is not proper, then of course 16I would not do so. It is a piecemeal approach but it may 17be helpful. Paragraph 1 at the bottom of page 40 -- well, 18it is not any particular paragraph. What I am asking is 19this. Do you agree that all the German government actions 20that you describe in this following section, the beginning 21of the deportations, that is section A, all the actions 22and statements of Himmler and Heydrich and Eichmann, were 23pursuant to a programme of deportation and not a programme 24of extermination? That is the first question. I am only 25referring to section A, the beginning of the deportation. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Up to page 48.

. P-126

1MR IRVING: Everything in that section was pursuant to a 2programme of deportation and not extermination? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
(After a pause) I have to look through the section. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
I do not want an ill considered reply. Just take your 5time. It is not a trick question. 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. I think as a summary of this paragraph of this 7section on page 46, paragraph 16 where I said, the state 8of contemporary research does not give sufficient evidence 9for the conclusion that at this time the deportation was 10already a matter for the planned murder and extermination 11camps. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think this is my view. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
To put it another way, you agree that all the evidence you 15introduce in that section A does not prove a programme of 16extermination? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think I have answered this question. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. The answer is yes? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well ---- 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer is yes? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The answer is yes. 22MR IRVING: Thank you. Paragraph 2, we are now looking at a 23man called Uebelhoer, who is the head of the 24administration of the district of Lodz. Are you aware 25that, in addition to Uebelhoer, there were other local 26German authorities like Lohse who also protested about the

. P-127

1plan to dump central European Jews in their districts, in 2their areas? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am not sure that Lohse protested. Kuger, for instance, 4had some views about that. I think the best is you give 5me the reference of the document and I comment on the 6document. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it is a bit difficult if we have to keep on looking 8at documents. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure what the relevance of the 10question is at the moment. 11MR IRVING: The relevance of the question is this. If you are 12in charge of a district like Uebelhoer and you are in 13charge of the administration there, and you are protesting 14about having European Jews dumped in your back garden, 15this clearly presupposes that they are not going to be 16exterminated, does it not, because, if they are going to 17be exterminated, then you do not have the problem of 18housing and feeding them? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is the beginning of the discussions then which went 20on in the Warthegau, what shall we do with these people? 21It becomes then clear, if you read further the next 22section, that at this stage they made a kind of agreement, 23which meant that they would kill the local Jews in order 24to make room for the Jews who were coming in from Europe. 25I am referring in this paragraph to deportations and I am 26not saying here that at this stage it is clear from the

. P-128

1documentation that deportation meant the killing of those 2who were deported on the spot. But, if you look into the 3next paragraph, it becomes clear what I mean here is that 4they took the decision to kill the local Jews in order to 5make room for the incoming German Jews. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am tackling this problem systematically and logically. 7If Uebelhoer, and as we know from other documents Lohse 8but take just the case of Uebelhoer, if he is protesting 9at having European Jews dumped in his district, it is 10because he assumes that they are going to be kept alive, 11and have to be fed and housed there. He is not assuming 12they are going to be exterminated, is he, the European 13Jews? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
He is just faced with a task to take in his ghetto 60,000 15at this stage sent to Germany. This is the task he was 16facing, and he is complaining about that. Obviously at 17this stage he is not given the order to kill these people 18on the spot. This is my argument. It is a transitional 19phase. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
As you said in this section A, there is no evidence of 21extermination, it is all just deportation measures being 22discussed? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This deals with deportation. I speak only about the Jews 24from central Europe. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Paragraph 6 on page 42, this is at a meeting in Prague on 26October 10th 1941, at which Eichmann was also present. Do

. P-129

1you agree that, when Heydrich suggested that Nebe and 2Rasch could take Jews into the camps of communist 3prisoners, this was not a veiled suggestion they could be 4exterminated in those camps? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think he is referring to the next stage of deportations 6here. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
So it was not a prerequisite to the extermination of those 8prisoners coming in? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am not sure about this because he was just talking about 10the ghetto in Lodz. I think this remark about Nebe and 11Rasch is probably the next stage, what will happen in next 12spring. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but it is not camouflage for the extermination of the 14people coming into those camps? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The problem is that we have not identified these camps. 16We do not know actually which camps he is speaking at this 17moment. Probably he is talking about a plan for a new 18camp which did not exist at this time. I have no idea how 19to relate this, how to interpret this one sentence. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, it seems to me that you have 21really got the answer from Dr Longerich which you want for 22your purposes. He said this is all talking of the 23deportation of the European Jews, and it did not go beyond 24that at this stage, according to him. Different things 25were affecting the Russian Jews at this time, but do you 26need to trawl through it?

. P-130

1MR IRVING: No, except that on each occasion I wanted to ask if 2each of the individual elements constituted a Holocaust 3denier. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I think you have got what you want. 5MR IRVING: Paragraph 9 on page 44, just to make absolutely 6certain, "The deportation of the Jews from the German 7Reich in the autumn of 1941 and the ensuing winter 8proceeded on the orders of Hitler". Will you just confirm 9that those orders were only orders for deportation and not 10for extermination, not even in a camouflage sense. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has said that already. We are still in 12section A here. 13MR IRVING: In that case we will zip forwards to page 48. 14Paragraph 2, just as a matter of interest, Tiergarten 15Strasse, after which the action T4 was named, was not part 16of Hitler's headquarters, was it? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The building belonged to Hitler's Chancellery of the 18Fuhrer. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did the Chancellery of the Fuhrer, despite its name, have 20any close contact with Hitler? Where was it situated? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This Chancellery of the Fuhrer was situated in Berlin. It 22was first of all during the 30s mainly responsible for 23dealing with petitions and things like that, which were 24addressed to Hitler. But it became in the course of 1939, 251940, a clandestine, let us call it, operational centre 26for the killing actions, the euthenasia programme.

. P-131

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was this because the doctors who carried it out formally 2had to have petitions for clemency for carrying out 3criminal acts? Was that the connection? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Sorry? 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
The doctors who were required to carry out these killings 6of the mentally sick and so on, they had to have clemency 7in advance for car committing a criminal act? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. They had this famous letter Hitler signed. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
He actually signed an order for the mass killing, did he 10not? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, he did. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
But this was the only connection between Hitler and the 13Chancellery of the Fuhrer, the fact that it had his name 14on its letter head, but it was geographically situated 15somewhere else. It was in Berlin and Tiergarten Strasse. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
If you take a street plan of Berlin in 1939, you will see 17that the buildings of government were widely spread 18throughout the district of Tiergarten and the district of 19Wilmerstov in Berlin, so the idea that all was situated in 20one complex would be wrong. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
It would be wrong, would it, in your opinion, to draw any 22false conclusion from the fact that this agency was called 23the Chancellery of the Fuhrer? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
To draw ---- 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would it be dangerous to draw a wrong conclusion from the 26fact that the Chancellery is called the Chancellery of the

. P-132

1Fuhrer? Would it be wrong to conclude that therefore it 2was Hitler's own personal instrument? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It was definitely Hitler's, it was one of the five 4Chancelleries which actually reported directly to Hitler. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought it was common ground that Hitler 6had initiated the euthanasia programme. 7MR IRVING: Yes. I am looking at just how closely connected 8because the euthanasia programme, the operatives in the 9programme, as your Lordship is probably familiar, later on 10became involved in selling their expertise, if I can put 11like that, in the gas vans. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am sorry, I thought you were talking 13about the euthenasia programme in your last question. 14MR IRVING: I am trying to break the link between Hitler and 15the Fuhrer's Chancellery, if I can put it like that. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Hitler had five Chancelleries. This is one of them. They 17were directly reporting to Hitler. There was a strong 18direct relationship between -- Hitler had his own 19Chancellery. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen the files of the Chancellery of the Fuhrer? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I have seen some of the files, yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are they bulging with correspondence between Adolf and 23Philip Buhle or Viktor Brach? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I tried to explain this earlier. This was originally an 25office which dealt with petitions sent to the Fuhrer and 26things like that. Then it became, in the course of the

. P-133

1euthanasia programme, a clandestine operation centre to 2carry out the final solution in a way of this question, 3the euthanasia question. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you now answer my question? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The character of the Chancellery in, let us say, 38 and in 61940, if you compare these two years, is completely 7different. It became a killing centre, and the fact that 8it was in Tiergarten Strasse 4, it was of course a 9clandestine operation. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you now answer my question? From your knowledge of 11the files of this Chancellery, are they bulging with 12correspondence between Adolf Hitler and the head of 13Fuhrer's Chancellery, namely Philip Buhle? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
We do not have the complete files, particularly all the 15files about the euthanasia programme, except some 16splinters, are lost. The files do not give us a clear 17view about the whole operation, about the Chancellery. It 18is basically boring stuff about people who are writing 19petitions to Hitler. The Chancellery dealt with the 20petition obviously on behalf of Hitler. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, let me go straight to the bottom line -- otherwise 22I am sure his Lordship will ask me to do so -- and say 23that, when the T4 action then moved over into running the 24gas vans, is there any evidence whatsoever of a link 25between Hitler and the Chancellery in this connection? 26Any documentary evidence that Hitler got personally

. P-134

1involved with the gas van programme? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think there is no such evidence, but the very fact that 3Hitler stopped the euthanasia programme in 1941 and that 4more than 100 people employed in the euthanasia programme 5then went to the district of Lublin and actually were used 6as the key personnel for the killing of the 1.5 million 7Jews, probably more, of the generalgouvernement, this 8gives us a clear idea of the involvement of Hitler. The 9Party Chancellery did only report to Hitler, so I am 10asking you who actually gave the order to the Party 11Chancellery to move this man from the euthanasia 12programme. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry, you are saying Party Chancellery, you do not 14mean that? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I mean the Chancellery of the Fuhrer. So actually who 16gave the order to this man to actually take on this new 17task in Poland? 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is of course pure supposition on your part, is it 19not? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Based on the fact that this was Hitler's Chancellery, the 21office which worked for Hitler. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Philip Buhle, who was the head of the Chancellery, what 23was his rank? Was he Reichsleiter? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which is one rung down from Reichsminister? 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Reichsleiter is the highest rank in the party.

. P-135

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did he have an SS rank? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not remember at the moment. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
These gas vans -- I am now on page 49, my Lord, paragraphs 45 to 8 -- whose existence we accept, were they only 5killing Jews or were they originally designed for clearing 6out the inmates of the Soviet mental hospitals? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is common ground too, is it not? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. They were primarily used for the killing of Polish 9inmates of these institutions. 10MR IRVING: Was any plan made to build these gas vans before 11the beginning of Barbarossa, or was it a kind of ad hoc 12killing method that was developed during the Barbarossa 13campaign? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Sorry? 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
An interim experimental method of killing people that was 16developed in the Barbarossa campaign? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The gas vans actually exist since 1940, so they were used 18in the Warthegau and by Sonderkommando Langer to kill the 19Polish inmates of institutions for disabled persons in 201940. Then in late summer of 1941 they actually 21transferred this technology to the East. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are there any documents that actually show Sonderkommando 23Langer operating at Chelmno? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, there are. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Documents as opposed to eyewitnesses? 26MR RAMPTON: Again I have to say I thought this was common

. P-136

1ground. 2MR IRVING: I am sorry, I am not going to question that. 3MR RAMPTON: I did not think there was any dispute at all about 4the slaughter of 97,000 people between December and 5whenever it was, May. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, and indeed that is true also, I think, 7of Treblinka and Sobibor, is it not? 8MR RAMPTON: I think so too. 9MR IRVING: There is dispute about the scale. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, up to a point that is true. 11MR IRVING: Yes. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: But there is no future in challenging 13Sonderkommando Langer's recollection, is there? 14MR IRVING: There is only point in disputing what 15Sonderkommando Langer was up to. Are you familiar with 16the fact that it was also apparently flown, according to 17Brightman, to take part in operations, I think Novgarod? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. This is the link between the Warthegau killings and 19the killings in Russia because we know from actually, it 20is the intercepts I think, we know that Himmler summoned 21the Sonderkommando to Novgarod where they killed the 22inmates of a local home for disabled people. This is an 23essential part of the history of the Chelmno extermination 24camp. This is the link. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does not the document show that the Sonderkommando was 26flown to Novgarod?

. P-137

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
How could they have put their van in a plane? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I did not say that they used a van. They killed the 4people obviously with bottles. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
By some other means? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, with bottles, gas in bottles. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
They did not only use gas vans then. Page 51 paragraphs, 810 to 11. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Paragraph 10 are you going to now, did you 10say? 10. We can start with paragraph 10. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 12MR IRVING: You refer on line 4 to 600 Soviet prisoners of war 13being gassed. Is that right? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
At Auschwitz? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I ask you just to have a look at one page from the 18book by the witness Professor van Pelt which I have 19included in the little bundle at page 12 this morning. 20The second paragraph is describing, the paragraph 21beginning with the words, "A major reason for the slow 22progress", it is describing the high mortality rate which 23has resulted from hygienic conditions in Auschwitz and 24Birkenhau. There it says in the month of October 1,255 25Soviets, meaning Soviet prisoners, had died from these 26hygienic conditions. He does not refer to gassings. What

. P-138

1is the reason for this discrepancy, do you think? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think if you read the book carefully, you will find a 3reference to the killing. In the same chapter you will 4find a reference to the killing of 600. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Indeed. I wrote to him in Mat 1996 asking for an 6explanation for the discrepancy, that on one part he 7describes them as being gassed and here on this page he 8refers to them clearly as ---- 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
There is no discrepancy. 10MR RAMPTON: This is a nonsense. I am sorry to have to keep 11standing up, but this is really such a waste of time. 12There is no inconsistency in this. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I can see that people were being gassed 14and people were dying for other reasons. 15MR RAMPTON: Of course and van Pelt's evidence ---- 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just looking it up. 17MR RAMPTON: --- I say it in his absence and from memory was 18that either in August or September 1941 there was an 19experimental gassing with Zyklon-B of 600 Soviet prisoners 20and others at Auschwitz (i). There is no inconsistency in 21that. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause a moment. 23MR RAMPTON: I am afraid I have not got his report here. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have and I am just looking. 25MR RAMPTON: My Lord, he gives ---- 26MR IRVING: My Lord, I am sorry, but I am going to have to

. P-139

1stick with what I said, notwithstanding this renewed 2interruption. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you have just I think challenged what 4Dr Longerich says about the first ---- 5MR IRVING: 600 who were gassed which is the standard story. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- gassing, well, actually 850, but leave 7that on one side, as having taken place in September or 8December 1941. You put to him something that Professor 9van Pelt wrote, I think, in order to support your 10challenge and I am just trying to find it but I cannot. 11MR IRVING: Page 272 of his book, my Lord. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know, but I am looking at his report which 13is possibly more complete, but I cannot immediately. We 14will have to move on. Perhaps somebody might be able to 15find the reference. 16MR RAMPTON: My Lord, try page 105 of van Pelt's report. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. I would like to track 18it down whilst we are on this point. 105. 19MR RAMPTON: Yes, 104, 105. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is in the area where I was looking. 21Yes. "It is important to note that after the war various 22witnesses confirmed that in early September the Germans 23had used block 11, the same block, as an experimental gas 24chamber". 25MR RAMPTON: That was the execution block until the crematorium 26at Auschwitz (i) was converted into a gas chamber.

. P-140

1MR IRVING: My Lord ---- 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: So, I mean, van Pelt appears to be at one 3with Dr Longerich, I think it is fair to say? 4MR RAMPTON: Absolutely, but there is no inconsistency between 5an experimental gassing in early September and deaths from 6something else in October. None at all. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think this is right, Mr Irving, actually, 8is it not? 9MR IRVING: I refer only to the fact that the evidence for the 10gassings is our familiar source, eyewitnesses, and the 11following sentence in the book which I quoted is -- I will 12read both sentences together -- "This contributed to the 13high mortality rate. In the month of October 1,255 14Soviets had died. None of this was welcome news to SS 15headquarters in Berlin where the prisoners, the Russian 16prisoners, were considered an asset." What are you 17gassing 600 assets for? 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you have Professor van Pelt's book in 19court? 20MR IRVING: I do not have it in court, no, my Lord. 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Which page is this in van Pelt's report? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: 105, I think it was. 23MR RAMPTON: 104 and 105 of Professor van Pelt's report. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think let us press on. 25MR IRVING: I will just press on and ask one relevant 26question. (To the witness): Dr Longerich, the source you

. P-141

1relied on for the 600 prisoners being gassed and for the 2further 900 in December are the sources you have given in 3235, is that right? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
All secondary sources? There is nothing of a primary, no 6documentary source for that, is there? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think the statement of Brach is probably an eyewitness, 8partially an eyewitness statement. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 50, you say there were six gas vans. You say in 10paragraph 8, probably a total of six gas vans. Do you 11disagree with those who say the total was three, only 12three were ever built? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I am quite familiar with the Einsatzgruppen. 14I studied their material and I went through all evidence 15about the Einsatzgruppen, and my calculation is a minimum 16of six. There is probably, there is probably some 17material here mentioned or used by me which has probably 18not been available to others. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
They did drive around a lot, did they not, from one 20killing area to another? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. It is referring here to reports by the 22Einsatzgruppen. They say, "We have one or we have two 23vans at our disposal at a certain time" and you can easily 24come to the conclusion they had a minimum of six vans 25available. I did this for all of the four Einsatzgruppen 26and it is a minimum. They could have -- it could have

. P-142

1been more but this is as far as I came. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 51, please, paragraph 11, we are looking at a visit 3by Adolf Eichmann allegedly to Auschwitz where he had a 4conversation with Rudolf Hoess, the Kommandant? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Where are we? In 55 in? 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
As you comment, they disagree firmly on what the date of 7that visit was. 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
And, in fact, Eichmann in his own copy of Hoess's memoirs 10dismissed it as fantasy, that there never had been any 11such meeting. Are you familiar with that? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, he also dismissed it -- he was very critical about 13Hoess in his interrogations in Israel. So we are at the 14moment at page? 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
51? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
51, sorry. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you really have to decide which of these two criminals 18you believe, have you not? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I do not think we have to. You know, the history of 20the Holocaust is not or the decision-making or systematic 21character is not based on either the evidence of, you 22know, Hoess or Eichmann. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Paragraph 12, you are talking about the construction of a 24monster crematorium with 32 chambers, furnished chambers. 25Can you confirm that your source for that is just an 26article by Gerlach in Holocaust and Genocide Studies?

. P-143

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, it is an excellent piece of work. He spent about 2eight years to study the Holocaust in White Russia. 3I know him personally, discussed it with him. I think he 4put, he actually supported his article with a lot of 5evidence. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there any document, any one document, that proves there 7was a plan to construct an extermination facility there? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. This is a conclusion because they built this large 9crematorium with 32, 32 chamber furnished, and I think the 10magnitude of this installation gives you a clear 11indication that they were planning something very sinister 12in Mogilev. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it possible there is another non-sinister 14interpretation like it was going to become a central 15corpse disposal facility for the whole of the Russian 16Front or the whole of the area or partisan war or 17something? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, in this article Gerlach dealt with the suggestion. 19I did not, I cannot remember the calculation, but the 20calculation, you know, the corpses they wanted to burn 21there is extraordinary. It exceeds, as far as I am aware, 22of the number of ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was it ever built? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, it was a plan. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
A plan. Paragraph 13, I am a bit confused about what you 26are actually saying in this paragraph. Do you confirm

. P-144

1that all the various preparations for mass killings you 2have described were designed for limited regional killing 3actions only? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, can I comment on this? I think you have to put this 5in a context. What I am trying to say here is that in 6phase, autumn '41 to spring 1942, we have -- the killing 7is extended from the Soviet Union to other regions, 8particularly to the Warthegau, to the district of Lublin, 9to -- it also extended to Serbia and you have in this 10period the large mass killings in Riga and in Minsk. 11 You can, if you look at the transfers of the gas 12technology, the gas killing technology, to the East, you 13can see that exactly in these areas of the cities they are 14either building gas killing facilities or they are 15planning to build them. 16 Lodz, for Lodz you have Chelmo, the first wave, 1720,000 Jews deported to Lodz. They are building Chelmno, 18first of all, for there to kill the local Polish Jews. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
The killing of what? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Building a, well, Chelmno, the ---- 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes? 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
--- a station for gas vans. Yes? Then we have evidence 23that in October 1941 they started to build Belzec, the 24extermination camp, in the district of Lublin. At the 25same time they were planning to send German Jews to 26Lublin. They were planning this to kill the local Jews.

. P-145

1The same applies to Riga. We have the famous letter, 25th 2October 1941, where actually the Reisigerhauptamt a gas 3van -- a gas killing installations to Osland. There is 4this plan in Mogilev. 5 So this I think, in my view, gives a very clear 6picture. They are sending Jews from Central Europe to 7certain ghettos in the East and they are either making 8preparations for gas killing installation at exactly these 9places, or they have plans to do so. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is the confusion because you said that in section A 11there was no indication during that same time span of any 12overall plan for extermination? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, the extermination, I am not sure whether I did not 14say this clearly enough, but the extermination, first of 15all, relates to the local Jews, so the non-German Jews, 16the Jews who lived there, the Jews of Lodz, the Jews of 17the district of Lublin, the Jews of Riga, the Jews of 18Minsk. They are not at this stage, they are not -- they 19are, obviously, not killing the German Jews on arrival. 20They are making preparations or are about to kill the 21local Jews. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
To make space for the arrival of the German Jews? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
If you want to say it in a cynical way, yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
So was this an integral part of the German plan to 25exterminate all Jews, is that what you are saying? 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not know whether you can call it a plan, but I think

. P-146

1it gives you an idea of the systematic character of the 2operation. They are -- you have in 1941, autumn 1941, to 3spring 1942, the killing extended to certain areas, and 4these are exactly the areas where actually Jews from 5Germany are deported to or where they are waiting for the 6trains from Germany. I think if you look at this, if you 7tie the loose ends together, it gives you an idea that 8behind this is a system, an idea, to systematically 9kill ---- 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you are going back on your suggestion that section A, 11during the section A period of your report, there was no 12overall plan to exterminate? 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, because I think -- can I just check 14I understand -- your section A was really talking about 15European Jews? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Central European Jews. 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Central European Jews? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
And the beginning of the systemized killing that you have 20described in October or thereabouts of 1941 applied still 21to the local Jews? 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I think that is the way he is putting it. You may not 24accept it. 25MR IRVING: Right. Perhaps I can clarify with another 26question. Are you saying then that all these

. P-147

1preparations, the exporting of the gas technology, is part 2of an overall plan to kill all Jews under German control? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I am not trying to perceive as a kind of preplanned, 4of a kind of blueprint or a plan which actually existed 5in, let us say, 1940, 1941. I am trying to explain that 6the killing of the European Jews was a process which 7emerged, you know, step by step, and we are now in a phase 8where obviously the killing was extended to other parts of 9Europe than the Soviet Union. 10 My argumentation, I am simply very cautious. 11I am saying, here are the facts, we know what happened and 12I am really hesitant to say this was the result of a plan 13which existed before the killing actually started. I am 14just showing you, I am trying to lead you through the 15different phases of this policy. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Are you aware that the judgment in the Eichmann 17trial said that all these preparations were part of a plan 18to exterminate all Jews under German control. 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, first of all, again I would like to have the verdict 20here, but, you see, the Eichmann trial was held in 1960, 21and we cannot ignore that we have historical research on 22the subject now for four decades and, of course, in some 23areas we have much, much more evidence than the Judges in 24the Eichmann case. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but I think somewhere else in your report you admit 26that we know virtually nothing. We still do not find any

. P-148

1orders about extermination -- I do not want to turn up the 2actual page, but I could, I suppose, find it, I 3have flagged it -- and it struck me as odd that here we 4are, 55 years down the road, and we are still floundering 5in some respects. That is page 46, paragraph 16. Let us 6go briefly back to there where you admit that we do not 7know the answers. So do we know much more than we did in 81960? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, we have a lot more evidence. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
The state of contemporary research does not give 11sufficient evidence, you say, and here we are at the 12beginning of the 21st century? 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, no, I think that is taking, if I may say 14so, that particular little section right out of context. 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. I am referring here to the question whether the 16deportation of Jews to the East was at this time already a 17matter for the plan. What I am saying, I do not know. 18The research does not allow us to make such a statement. 19MR IRVING: So there are lots of areas where we still, even 20after 60 years, cannot make a firm statement. 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
That is due to the fact that many of these decisions, you 22know, were done obviously orally between, you know, Hitler 23and Himmler. The Nazis systematically tried to destroy 24the files concerning this question. As far as the files 25are survived, they are scattered around Europe. We 26actually have only access to Eastern European archives

. P-149

1since a couple of years, so it is... 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is that not a bit of a cop out, if I can use a phrase, to 3say that the files have been destroyed and it was done 4verbally between Hitler and Himmler? Is it not a bit of 5an ausflugt? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. Himmler said it himself in the speech. This is 7history which has not been written and will never be 8written. So they tried systematically to destroy the 9evidence and to mislead the following generations 10about ---- 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Having said that, he then had the speech printed in 12numerable copies and shown to every member of the SS 13General Staff? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I replied this yesterday. It was not, it was a secret 15speech. It was not planned to publish it. It was just to 16have a copy available for internal use. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 53, paragraph 1.3, please? We looked at this 18document once or twice already. Do you agree that the 19approval for the mass killing came from Heydrich and 20Himmler, and that there is no evidence that Hitler himself 21approved of this operation or, indeed, was even informed 22of it? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I have only can refer to this document and if you read the 24document, it is only a reference to Himmler. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
And to Heydrich, of course.

. P-150

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
And that if there had been these verbal discussions 2between Himmler and Hitler that you refer to, this is the 3kind of place you would have expected to find reference to 4it between ---- 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Not necessarily. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
But if there had been general knowledge, and one can 7assume that Gauleiter Greisler who has carried out this 8special treatment of 100,000 Jews must have been wondering 9at the back of his mind, "Is it OK what I am doing?" that 10Himmler passed on to him the word, "Well, I have cleared 11it with the boss"? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, Greisler obviously no difficulties to carry out this 13task. He did not ask for this kind of approval and you 14know that there were very rules about secrecy, and it was 15not every -- it was not always necessary to mention the 16name of Hitler in this or to call upon the authority of 17Hitler in this ---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you say so, Dr Longerich, but, of course, Gauleiter 19Greisler, as a Gauleiter, formally came under Hitler, did 20he not, so where was Hitler in this equation? Here is 21Greiser dealing direct with Himmler, saying, "I have done 22what you and Heydrich have authorized", and there is no 23mention of Hitler in the document? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. There is no mentioning because Greiser was quite 25prepared to carry out this, to carry out this task and he 26assumed that Himmler had the authority to ask him to do

. P-151

1so. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you agree that Hitler did not order this operation 3then, that the operation was ordered by Himmler and 4Heydrich, as the document says? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I have no written evidence that Hitler ordered this 6particular operation to kill these, to kill 100,000 in the 7Warthegau area. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
If somebody says precisely the words you have just used, 9would that make them a Holocaust denier? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Not this one sentence, no, of course not. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
The next page, please, paragraph 2.3, are you able to 12identify any document in support of your assertion that 13two districts were to take the lead in the implementation 14of the Final Solution? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, this is mainly, if you look at the, if you look at 16the history of the two extermination camps, at the two 17extermination camps, Belzec, if you look at the history of 18the extermination camp, Belzec, and if you look then, if 19you go a little bit further, if you do not stop here, and 20if you go a little bit further and look into spring 1942 21and look at the deportation, what happened, then it is 22quite clear that Belzec was particularly built for the 23killing of the Jews who are labelled non-fit for work in 24the district of Belzec and to a certain extent in the 25district of Galicia. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
So once again you are extrapolating backwards from what

. P-152

1happened to presume an order ---- 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but that is something that if you do not have a 3complete, if you do not have a complete documentation, 4this is what historians sometimes have to do. They have 5to draw conclusion what, you know, actually from the 6following sequence or they have to go back a little bit. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is what I have been saying for some weeks, in fact, 8and obviously we share the same kind of methods ---- 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am not sure about that. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- we do not always come up with the same conclusions. 11Paragraph 2.4, the only sources that you quote for your 12assertions about the events in East Galicia are the 13testimony rendered in the 1968 trial and a secondary work 14Ostgalizien by Pohl? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is a dissertation published three years ago by a 16colleague I know very much and I know very closely and, 17I mean, I follow ---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Just like Gerlach, the same kind of thing? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
And this is a first case study about the killing of the 20Jews of Eastern Galicia. There is a second book written 21at the same time which came to the same conclusion written 22by Zan Kuhlack, and I think I do not have to go to the 23local archives in Galicia to prove that the Nazis killed 24the Jews of Galicia. It is quite evident. These books 25have been reviewed. These people have to confront 26colleagues' criticism and conferences. I attended those

. P-153

1conferences and I am of no doubt about their academic 2qualifications, and I do not have to present, I think, 3always first-hand evidence or documentary evidence for 4something which is commonly acknowledged among historians 5and is not disputed. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you dispute this, Mr Irving? Do you say 7that this all made up by somebody? 8MR IRVING: Well, the question I was going to ask is precisely 9what he just answered. Is he able to identify any 10documentary evidence in support of his allegations or is 11it all second-hand? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but would you answer my question? Are 13you disputing that these indiscriminate killings in 14Galicia took place? 15MR IRVING: Not in so many words. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, then let us move on. 17MR IRVING: The purpose of asking these questions, of course, 18is to establish, my Lord, the sometimes rather threadbare 19evidence that this report is based on. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: But there is no point in saying evidence for 21a proposition is threadbare if you accept the proposition. 22MR IRVING: Well, I am accustomed to working with original 23documents rather than with secondary and tertiary sources. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: It would not make any difference if you had 25the original documents because you accept what they show. 26MR IRVING: 2.6, Dr Longerich, once again are you able to

. P-154

1identify any document that records what Himmler and 2Globocnik discussed at their meeting on October 13th, 3other than, presumably, the Dienstkalender? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, it is in the Dienst calendar, you have it in front of 5you probably. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
They were just talking about the einfluss der Juden, 7I suppose, or something like that? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, and then there is the BBC file of Globocnik and there 9is a very interesting exchange of letters, and you can 10come to this conclusion if you read through that. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
And on the basis of those two sources, you then say: "It 12is presumably at this meeting that Globocnik received the 13assignment to build the Belzec extermination camp"? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Just one second, well, we know that they met and we know 15that Globocnik from the internal correspondence of his 16office in Lublin, we know that he was looking for more 17radical solutions for the Jewish question. Then he met 18Himmler and after that they started to build the 19extermination camp of Auschwitz. 20 This is a typical, I mean, in this field we have 21to rely, what we are trying to do, we are trying to 22reconstruct the history of the decision-making process. 23This means that because the evidence is sometimes or is 24sometimes fragmented, we have to put together pieces and 25have to draw conclusions from that. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes.

. P-155

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
So it is not so easy, you do not have the daily or the 2weekly records of the conversations between Himmler and 3Hitler about the Holocaust. We have to use these bits and 4pieces and put it together and to come to our 5conclusions. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very interesting. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Of course, I made here, of course, these kind of 8reservations when I am not absolutely sure that they 9decided this day, it is an assumption based on documentary 10evidence that they probably at this day as I think made 11the decision to build an extermination camp for the 12district of Lublin which then existed, and there were 13people killed in this extermination camp which I think is 14also part of the evidence. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Now just a minor diversion here. Am I right in saying it 16is a perfectly reasonable process as historian or writer 17you get fragmentary documents, sometimes only half a line, 18sometimes a scrap of handwriting. You add your own 19knowledge, you add your experience, the 30 years you have 20worked in the archives, your general body of information, 21and on the basis of that you try to represent, in as 22accurate and genuine a form as possible, what, on the 23balance of probabilities, those fragments of information 24mean. 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
And you have to include, of course, every piece you find. 26You cannot neglect anything.

. P-156

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but here you had very little that you could have 2neglected, because your result said it is very 3fragmentary, is it not? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Sometimes these things are very fragmentary. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
What I just described is the normal process of writing 6history on the basis of very scant records? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
If the record is fragmented, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you familiar with the writings of Jan Karski? I will 9ask you about one particular one, page 56, paragraph 2.7. 10Are you aware of the first report that a Polish emissary 11called Jan Karski wrote? He gave it to the Polish 12government in exile early 1940, in which he described a 13visit in December 1939 to a transit camp for Jews at 14Belzec? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. A camp existed at Belzec before this. There was a 16large slave labour camp in Belzec before this time. 17Belzec was just on the demarcation line between the Soviet 18and the German sphere of influence in Poland. They 19employed Jewish slave labour in 1939 and 1940 to build 20what they called the Buchgraben, the fortification at the 21river Buch. So there was a camp there and the living 22conditions in the camp were quite horrid. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Jan Karski describes this ---- 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, before you go on about Mr Karski, 25I had thought you accepted that at Belzec there were many 26thousands, tens if not hundreds of thousands, of Jews

. P-157

1killed by gassing. What is the point of putting that 2Mr Karski took the view it was a transit camp? 3MR IRVING: I am looking at the quality of the sources. 4I appreciate this point. We will just concentrate on the 5figures then. Is your primary source on Belzec Michael 6Tregenza article published in the Wiener Library bulletin? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, my primary source is the Belzec verdict in German the 8court. Of course I am familiar with the article. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is in your footnote 259. 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, it refers to it but it refers first of all to 11evidence from German court material. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you accepted in your footnote 259 that Tregenza is 13reliable? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, I just quoted him here. The footnote is about an 15attempt to reconstruct the history of the setting up of 16Belzec. So I quoted here different statements from 17actually people who participated, worked, who actually 18built this up, and then I said in the footnote Tregenza as 19well confirmed the statement. He accepted the statement 20as a kind of additional source, but I am primarily relying 21on the Polish workers who built there, and who gave us 22evidence about the history of the camp itself. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you disregarded anything that Tregenza wrote in his 24report? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I only referred, I think, to his article here. This does 26not mean I accepted every line that he has written about

. P-158

1the camp. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
So, if he had written a number of totally absurd 3statements that would have implied to you that he had 4never been anywhere near the place? 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is no doubt that Belzec was 6constructed, is there? 7MR IRVING: Unfortunately, he is the source for one million 8being killed apparently? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, not in my report. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you endorse Tregenza's claim that more than a million 11Jews were killed at Belzec? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
We do not know the exact number. I think best estimations 13were given in the German Belzec trial. They said between 14500 and 600,000 people. So I would assume that the number 15one million could be seen as exaggerated. I am only 16quoting this article one time and, if he made an absurd 17statement there, I would not quote the article of course. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
If he made a dozen absurd statements, would you have 19quoted it? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Please criticise me if I quote him. I think I only quoted 21him one once and I only quoted that he actually confirms 22these statements of documents which I found elsewhere. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry to keep interrupting but, if I do 24not understand, I may as well say so. You quote whatever 25he is called, Tregenza, simply for the date when the 26construction of Belzec started. You do not rely on him,

. P-159

1as I understand it, am I right, Dr Longerich, for the 2number killed there? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, exactly. 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You rely on the German court documents for that and they 5give a different figure. So why are we spending a long 6time on whether he is a reliable witness? 7MR IRVING: We are going to spend a short time. I could have 8spent much longer describing all the absurd statements 9which make it quite plain that Tregenza was never anywhere 10near the place and that any reasonable historian, reading 11Tregenza's report, would have disqualified that source 12completely. Paragraph 2.8, page 57, your only source for 13the claim that Globocnik had an assignment to kill the 14Jews of the Lublin and Galicia districts is a secondary 15work again, Pohl's Lublin? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am stating here that Globocnik had not yet received the 17order to prepare for the killing of all Jews in the 18Generalgouvernement, so this is the key sentence here. 19I came to the conclusion actually by looking at the 20history of Belzec because Belzec was obviously too small, 21put it this way, to kill all the Jews of the 22Generalgouvernement. So I think in my attempt to 23reconstruct events, Belzec was first of all designed to 24kill the Jews non-fit for work in the district of Lublin, 25and in the district of Galicia, but not the killing centre 26for the whole Generalgouvernement. I came to this

. P-160

1conclusion by looking actually at the size of this 2installation. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
In Belzec? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Belzec. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
So we do not have very much information on the size 6anyway, do we? We are very ill informed about it. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Because these camps were destroyed systematically by the 8Nazis at the end of the war. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I just take you back, and I am sure my Lord will 10understand why, to page 53, paragraph 1.2, the third 11line. There is a sentence there: "750 Jews were killed in 12gas vans." Do you see that? The beginning of the 13sentence says: "In an action lasting several days at the 14end of November 700 Jews were killed in gas vans". So, if 15it took several days to kill 700 Jews in gas vans, can you 16estimate how long it would take to kill 97,000? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
They were just experimenting at this time. They improved 18their technique. This statement does not say that they 19were trying to kill as many Jews as possible. It just 20says they killed 700 Jews in a couple of days. It does 21not make any sense to draw conclusions from that to their 22capacity, to their ability to kill Jews in gas vans. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
So this was just experimental at this stage, was it? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
If you like to call the killing of 700 people as 25experimental, yes, then I have to agree, in comparison to 26what happened after that 97,000.

. P-161

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Dr Longerich, you yourself used the phrase, and I quote 2verbatim, they were just experimenting at this stage. I 3did not use the word. You did. 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I tried to put it to you, I have to admit, in a kind of 5cynical way, to say, well, they were improving, wait a 6little bit, wait a couple of months and they were able to 7kill 97,000 people within six months. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
With the same numbers of gas vans? Three gas vans could 9kill 97,000? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think in the meantime they changed the models. They 11worked on the models, as the report from June 1942 shows 12us. They tried their best to extend the capacity of the 13gas vans. Of course the use of Chelmno was a kind of 14improvement because they were able to deceive people, to 15say to them: Well, actually only entering a shower room, 16the shower room was in fact the gas, so this whole thing 17was much more effective a couple of months later than this 18one here. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you sometimes get the impression, Dr Longerich, that 20some of these figures that are put in letters and 21documents, or even eyewitness statements, are just fantasy 22figures? They have very little relation to fact? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
That is not my general view. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I take you to page 56 please, line 8. There is a 25sentence there on line 8 which says: "On 12th October 261941, 10,000 to 12,000 Jews were murdered in one town".

. P-162

1Is that right? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you likes to comment on the logistics of an 4operation of that scale? How many men would be involved? 5How many shooters? How many trucks? How many pits? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I went through the history of mass executions for quite a 7time. I studied this for the book I wrote extensively. 8I looked at dozens of German court proceedings and I have 9a kind of idea how it was feasible to do that. You 10actually needed to kill thousands of people, even 10,000 11people, you needed actually ---- 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
In one day? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, on one day. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
It just says on one day. 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, it was possible. You only needed a quite limited 16number of people who would shoot these people on the pits. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
1,000 tons of bodies? 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, when I asked you -- I am sorry to 19interrupt -- about 20 minutes ago, when we were on this 20paragraph before, whether you disputed the indiscriminate 21shootings in Galicia, you said no. You are now putting to 22him that in some way it would have been impossible to 23dispose of the corpses and you are now challenging the 24killings. 25MR IRVING: Your Lordship may not have heard the introductory 26question which is does this witness have the impression

. P-163

1sometimes that these figures are fantasy figures. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you are challenging the figures? 3MR IRVING: I am challenging globally these kinds of statistics 4which are in the history books and in the reports on the 5basis of what is practicable, and what is, on the basis of 6common sense, likely. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not know as far as one can speak about common sense 8when it comes to mass killings, but this is called the 9bloody Sunday of Stanislaw. So it is a tragedy which is 10well-known. It is well-researched. 11MR IRVING: How many men were involved in the actual killing 12operation? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think, as far as I am aware, several hundred at least. 14Is it really necessary that I -- 15MR IRVING: No, I have left that point now. 16MR RAMPTON: Without deigning to wait for the witness's full 17answer, I have to say. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Actually, what you would not have seen is 19that I rather suggested to Dr Longerich that we might move 20on from Galicia. 21MR IRVING: I did not see that either but I had already decided 22to move on. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are all agreed. Let us move on. 24MR IRVING: If your Lordship thinks that was not a valid point 25to make, then I will avoid making points like that in 26future.

. P-164

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the killings in Galicia are a bit of 2a side issue, I am afraid. 3MR IRVING: It is the figures, the statistics, my Lord. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Even that. 5MR IRVING: If somebody is accused of Holocaust denial because 6he says the figures are too high. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are talking about that particular 8obviously ghastly incident in Galicia, and I do not really 9think that that is what this case is centrally about. 10MR IRVING: Page 59, paragraph 3, please. Two days later 11Rosenberg spoke at a press conference about the 12eradication of the Jews of Europe. Was this supposed to 13be secret or not, this operation? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The operation was secret. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
He orders a press conference and talks about it. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This was quoted yesterday. I quoted this yesterday 17again. This was under the heading "secret". The 18journalists were not allowed to write about it. There was 19a section of the press conference where it actually was 20said: This is now confidential, a confidential 21information, you are not allowed to write about this 22issue. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
I do not want to labour the point, but what kind of top 24secret issue is it? I do not remember General Leslie 25Groves holding top secret background briefings to the 26press about the Manhattan project, for example. Either

. P-165

1something is top state secret or it is not. You do not 2hold even background briefings with the press about it. 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think you have to read the statement very carefully. 4"There are still about 6 million Jews in the east, and 5this question can only be solved through a biological 6eradication of all of Jewry in Europe. The Jewish 7question will only be solved for Germany when the last Jew 8has left German territory and for Europe when there is no 9longer a Jew left standing on the European Continent". He 10is not literally saying well, actually, we are killing at 11the moment people, women, men and children in gas 12chambers. He is talking about this in very general 13phrases. It is like Hitler spoke about ausrottung and 14vernichtung and I quote in the report No. 1. I quote a 15number of other examples. In every system where you have 16a principle of secrecy, of course, things are going wrong 17and people are talking too much to the press, and giving a 18kind of insight into the process. These things happen. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you agree that, when Rosenberg specifically names the 20option as being to push them over the Urals as one way of 21eradicating them, then such expulsion over the Urals does 22not necessarily mean to kill them? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am not sure now about your question, whether it is 24actually a pronouncement to kill them or not to kill 25them. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you agree that the Rosenberg reference to

. P-166

1eradication therefore does not necessarily mean physical 2extermination or killing? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I look at the German text. I am sorry. Well, he says in 4the German: "Und dazu ist es notig, sie uber den Ural zu 5drangen oder sonst irgendwie zur Ausmerzung zu bringen." 6For this it is necessary to push them over the Urals or 7otherwise eradicate them. I think this is quite clear: 8Otherwise eradicate them. So I think the phrase to push 9them over the Urals is a clear expression, a metaphor for 10killing. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Dr Longerich, I am looking at my little dictionary from 12yesterday, the 1935 one, and it says for Ausmerzung -- I 13did not know this but here we are, we take a plunge -- to 14expunge or to eliminate, to expunge them. 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
To eliminate, I think, would be the right expression here. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Primary one to expunge? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
In this case I think, if somebody speaks about millions of 18people, Jews, who actually ---- 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are going to boot them out or expunge them? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but you have to look at the context. I think, if you 21speak end of 1941, after half a million of Soviet Jews had 22been killed, at least, if a leading Nazi speaks about 23Ausmerzung, I think the second meaning would here be the 24better translation. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are extrapolating backwards from your knowledge of 26what happened to assign a meaning to the word which is

. P-167

1different from the primary meaning given by the 2dictionaries. 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
What happened at the time, and Rosenberg was of course 4quite aware about the---- 5MR RAMPTON: Extrapolating backwards is unfair. Putting two 6contemporary events side by side and drawing an inference 7would be more like it. 8MR IRVING: This press conference was in November 1941, 9I believe, is that right? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton has rightly said that events happened side by 12side. At this time, 18th November, had the physical 13extermination of the Jews of Germany begun? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, but of the Soviet Jews. I think the phrase to push 15them over the Urals is a very clear hint. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
We now come to the Wannsee conference. A general 17question: Are you able to identify any documentary 18evidence that proves that by the time of the Wannsee 19conference, which is January 20th 1942, the general plan 20for deportation had changed into one for mass murder? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think the Wannsee conference gives us a clear insight 22that they are about to change their plan. I think we have 23to go into the detail to make this point more clear. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
They had not yet changed but they are about to? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
They are about to change, yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
In your opinion?

. P-168

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
So at the time that these gentlemen meet around their 3table in Berlin Wannsee, the change has not taken place, 4but sometime sooner or later after that the change will 5take place? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Sooner, yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is page 61 now, please, paragraph 2. The passage that you 8identify as central concerning the general aims of the 9future Jewish policy is as follows, Dr Longerich: "A 10further possible solution instead of emigration has come 11up. After appropriate approval by the Fuhrer, the 12evacuation of the Jews to the East has stepped into its 13place". Let us have a look at that. By "evacuation of 14the Jews", do you mean evacuation or killing? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think we have to look at the text of the Wannsee. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to find it. For some reason it 17is not in N1. 18MR RAMPTON: We do not have it. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought I had looked at it. 20MR RAMPTON: It is nobody's fault. I have asked. There is a 21version printed in Nokes &Pridham, but I have not even 22got that. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought we had looked at it at some stage. 24MR RAMPTON: It is an extraordinary state of affairs, but 25nobody on either side of the court seems to have a text of 26the Wannsee conference.

. P-169

1MR IRVING: I do not mind very much because it is not a very 2important document. 3MR RAMPTON: I am not concerned with whether Mr Irving minds 4about that or anything else, to be quite honest. I am 5concerned that it is not there when your Lordship wants to 6see it. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it obtainable? 8MR RAMPTON: It is printed in a well-known three volume history 9of Nazi Germany by two people from Exeter University 10called Nokes &Pridham. It is referenced under that 11heading in a number of the reports, particularly Evans, 12but it is not in the documents. 13MR IRVING: My Lord, I can provide immediately an English 14translation on Monday. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it probably is a good idea to have 16it. 17MR RAMPTON: I agree. 18MR IRVING: It is on my website. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a document that one is going to have to 20look at quite carefully. 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I have the English text here in this documentation. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, I have it here. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us try and deal with the questions now. 25MR IRVING: The question was, in your central passage the 26evacuation of the Jews to the East has stepped into its

. P-170

1place. Can we accept that evacuation has its real meaning 2there or is there an innuendo? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is not the central passage. He is referring here to 4two different things. First of all, he is actually 5telling the history of how the Nazis tried to solve the 6Jewish question. He is saying here: "A further possible 7solution to emigration has come up. After appropriate 8approval by the Fuhrer the evacuation of the Jews to the 9East has stepped into its place". "Into its place" is in 10the place of emigration. Then it goes on and says: "These 11actions however must be regarded only as an alternative 12solution. But already the practical experience is being 13gathered which is of great importance to the coming Final 14Solution of the Jewish question". Now in the next 15paragraph he is explaining what the coming Final Solution 16of the Jewish question is. So he is referring to 17emigration, then to deportation, and then he is saying the 18next step, we are entering now the Final Solution, the 19coming Final Solution, and the central passage where he 20explains (Heydrich) what the coming Final Solution is, is 21quoted in my report on page 61 in the last paragraph. 22This is the central passage, I think. 23MR IRVING: Yes. 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is past tense. This is history, the deportation. We 25are now approaching the coming Final Solution. That is 26what the Wannsee conference is about.

. P-171

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: What you say is that it is what he does not 2say rather than what he does say in relation to those who 3are unfit to work which is significant? Have I understood 4you correctly? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, he is now explaining what the coming Final Solution 6is. These are these famous sentences: "Under the 7appropriate direction, the Jews shall now be put to work 8in the course of the Final Solution. Organized into large 9work gangs and segregated according to sex, those Jews fit 10for work will be led into these areas as road builders, 11whereby, no doubt, a large part will fall out by natural 12elimination. The remainder who will survive -- and they 13will certainly be those who have the greatest power of 14endurance -- will have to be dealt with accordingly. For, 15if released, they would, according to the natural 16selection of the fittest, form the seed of a new Jewish 17regeneration". I think the key word in German here is 18"entsprechend behandelt werden mussen", to be dealt with 19accordingly. 20MR IRVING: Treated accordingly, yes. 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is the central passage of the Wannsee conference and 22this is where Heydrich explains what the coming Final 23Solution is. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Of course it depends how you translate it, does it not? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The German text for me is pretty clear. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
What about that phrase "bei Freilassung" which originally

. P-172

1you actually left out in your book? You left those words 2out entirely, did you not, because it is difficult to get 3past those words "bei Freilassung"? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. I am not sure about the book ---- 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am sure because you left the words out of that 6quotation. 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I am quite happy that you read my book but we are talking 8about this text here. If there is a mistake I will 9correct it. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
You translate it as: For the Jews, if released, would, 11according to natural selection of the fittest, form the 12seed of a new Jewish regeneration. 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
The word is not "if released". It is not conditional. It 15is "bei Freilassung", which means upon release, does it 16not? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. In the case of release, bei Freilassung. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Upon release? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is not conditional at all. There is no if and but 21about it. It says "bei Freilassung". 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, "bei Freilassung". This is meant in the context as 23conditional. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think this is probably the key part, in a 25way, of your report, Dr Longerich. The question, if 26I have understood it right, is that what Heydrich is

. P-173

1really proposing is that one would, by a process of 2natural selection, have the fittest Jews forming the seed 3of what he is intending should be a new Jewish 4regeneration. Is that the suggestion, Mr Irving? 5MR IRVING: That is the danger which they foresee, and so they 6are going to have to be kept, for example, physically 7outside the Reich territories. They must be prevented 8from returning. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but the idea that you are putting that 10Heydrich has is that there should be a new Jewish 11regeneration born of the fittest Jews who survive the 12labour camps. 13MR IRVING: He fears that they may be. He is not saying they 14should be. He says that if, upon release---- 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. Are you suggesting that the true meaning 16of this passage is that Heydrich is proposing that there 17should be -- all right, outside the Nazi empire -- the 18seed of a new Jewish regeneration? Is that what you are 19putting? 20MR IRVING: It is, because on February 4th 1942, which is only 21a week or two later, Heydrich, speaking in Prague, 22actually spoke again of the white sea option. He said 23nothing about the mass annihilation of the Jews. Are you 24familiar with the book by Gotz Aly? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Final Solution, Nazi population policy, and the murder of

. P-174

1the European Jews. He prints extracts from this speech by 2Heydrich in Prague, does he not, February 4th 1942? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but Aly is of course---- 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
He says nothing about mass annihilation of the Jews. He 5reiterates the white sea option, which involves sending 6the Jews to form a Russian concentration camp and says 7that this area will form an ideal homeland for the 8European Jews. Are you familiar with that passage from 9Gotz Aly? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have not mentioned it, have you? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, but Gotz Aly is among those who actually suggest in 13the book that the decision to carry out the Final Solution 14was taken in October 1941. You quote him completely 15against his own intentions. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am allowed to, am I not? Historians are allowed to take 17pieces out of other people's books that do not necessarily 18fit in with the---- 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, but you have also to read his interpretation of this 20sentence which does not go along with your interpretation. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dr Longerich, can you just go back to what 22I believe is the suggestion as to what Heydrich was 23proposing at Wannsee. Leave aside what happened later. 24Would you comment on Mr Irving's proposition? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. I think this passage makes it quite clear what 26Heydrich's intentions are. He says that the Jews will be

. P-175

1led into the East in large labour gangs, segregated 2according to sex. Thus Jews fit for work will be let into 3those areas, whereby, no doubt, a large part will fall out 4by natural elimination. So they will die by hard labour, 5diseases and so on. The remainder who will survive, and 6they will certainly be those who have the greatest power 7of endurance, so they are fit to survive, will have to be 8dealt with accordingly. Again the German phrase here is 9"entsprechend behandelt werden mussen". This is a 10typical phrase used by the SS, they have to be 11liquidated. Then, because, if they were released, in 12contrast to Heydrich's intention, there would be a 13selection of the finest and could form the seed of a new 14Jewish regeneration. This is exactly what Heydrich of 15course wanted to prevent. He did not want to see after 16this ordeal a new generation of Jews in his empire. In 17the Wannsee protocol there are also other references, 18I think, and other passages which make it quite clear what 19the intention was. 20MR IRVING: At the end of that passages does he also have a 21passage in brackets which you left out, "see the lessons 22of history"? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Sorry? Here in the text I left something out? 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
"als Keimzelle eines neuen judischen Aufbaues anzusprechen 25ist". Then there is another passage in brackets which you 26left out, is it not, in that paragraph, "see the lessons

. P-176

1of history"? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
The lessons of history are we do not want to see actually 3Jews regenerate from such a catastrophe any more, we want 4to kill them all. By the way, the logic of this sentence, 5this idea to lead large labour gangs into the East and to 6have them diminished by natural selection, and then to 7deal with the survivors, what about the people who are not 8fit for work? He does not say that. What about the 9children and the mothers? What is he going to offer for 10them in the context of this speech? 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
You say that what Heydrich was saying in Prague on 12February 4th 1942, just a few days later, has no bearing 13on this, that he makes no mention of mass annihilation, 14and he is talking about the white sea option and using the 15Russian concentration camps, which are now emptied of 16course, to house the Jewish emigres. What is this, just 17window dressing? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
They are speaking here about the coming Final Solution, so 19it has not started yet. It will start in May 1942. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who was Heydrich speaking to in February 211942, Dr Longerich, do you know? Do you know, Mr Irving? 22May I enquire of you? 23MR IRVING: I am just checking on the source, Gotz Aly. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, do not worry. 25MR IRVING: A secret address by Heydrich on February 4th 1942 26in Prague, page 174 of Gotz Aly, the Final Solution. That

. P-177

1is the only reference that I have for that. 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Again, one should see the whole document. Secret address 3to whom? I would like to see the full text before I could 4comment on that. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
He was not speaking to the Boy Scouts and the Brownies, 6was he? He was obviously speaking to people who---- 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think I have seen any transcript or 8note of what he said on February 4th. 9MR IRVING: I will obtain it, my Lord. That is all I can say. 10The whole passage. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you mind? Thank you. 12MR IRVING: It does seem important because of the value one 13learns from it to place on the Wannsee conference. Can 14I just ask, or re-ask, one or two questions about the 15Wannsee conference? There is no specific mention of 16killing. You have once again to interpret, you have to 17read between the lines? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. Again, I tried to show you this here. If you go to 19the end of the minutes, it is, I think, quite clear. If 20you look at the remarks of the Secretary of State of the 21Generalgouvernement, I quoted this in my report, it is 22page 64, the last paragraph: "In the concluding 23discussion different possible solutions were talked 24about. Gauleiter Dr Meyer (the representative of the 25Ministry for the occupied Eastern territories) as well as 26Staatssekretar Dr Buhler, Secretary of State of the

. P-178

1Generalgouvernement, represented the position that certain 2preparatory measures in the course of the Final Solution 3should be carried out in the relevant areas themselves, 4whereby, however, the disquieting of the population must 5be avoided." 6 Then the Wannsee protocol makes clears that they 7were talking about the different solutions they were 8suggesting here. So what they are doing is they are 9saying, well, we cannot wait until the Final Solution is 10coming, we want to start with it now. So they are trying 11to exempt the killing operations against the Polish Jews 12and the Soviet Jews from this coming Final Solution. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
These preparations that might have upset or caused unrest, 14would it be things like drawing up lists of people to be 15deported? Would that have caused unrest? 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, the preparatory measures are the building of killing 17installations. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
How do you know that? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is my interpretation. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Your interpretation? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
From the text and from what happened. They started to 22build a couple of weeks later Sobibor, they started to 23build Treblinka and they built gas chambers in Auschwitz. 24As I said, well, they prefer to use a camouflage 25language. We also have the statements by Eichmann in his 26trial when he said at the Wannsee conference they spoke

. P-179

1quite openly about killing and different ways of killing. 2I think this is here the passage he is referring to. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are saying that making the preparatory measures in the 4relevant areas might disquiet the population. Why would 5creating killing installations in Poland, or wherever the 6killing is going to be done, upset the population who are 7going to be rounded up and shipped off to them? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think the fact that they were going to establish 9extermination camps would upset the local population. 10They would not like it. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not far more likely that the preparatory measures 12that they are talking about are things as I mentioned, 13like rounding up or listing or drawing up black lists of 14people to be deported, making all the necessary transport 15preparations, word of which would get out and what would 16happen then would be the same as happened in Rome, where 17they start off with 8,000 and only manage to get their 18hands on 1,000? 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think we have to go back to the text here. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, can I take you now to paragraph 3 of that page, 61? 21I am going to suggest to you, Dr Longerich, they are 22talking about the Final Solution as is going to be 23implemented after the victory, is that right? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, definitely not. It is saying here in the -- it says 25in the -- really, it is a pity that we do not have the 26full text here ----

. P-180

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Let me draw your attention to the last sentence. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let him finish the answer. 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
We have a clear indication in the text that they are 4expecting the beginning of the coming Final Solution in a 5couple of months, because it is said here in the text: 6"The timing for the start of the individual large scale 7evacuation actions will be largely dependent on military 8development". So they ---- 9MR IRVING: "And could only be fully realized after a German 10victory"? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Is it in the text? 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, your paragraph 3. 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I am sorry but ---- 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is the question I asked you ---- 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, just a moment ---- 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
At the end of paragraph 3. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are talking over each over. 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Just a moment. I am not quoting from the minutes of the 19Wannsee Conference where it clearly said that this 20deportation could start after the military developments 21would allow that. This is in a couple of -- from their 22perspective, is a couple of months. The whole operation 23could, of course, only be, could only be carried out, the 24whole operation, they talking here about the killing of 11 25million Jews, including British Jews, Turkish Jews, Swiss 26Jews, and so on. So the whole operation could, of course,

. P-181

1only -- it is a question of logic -- only be dealt to a 2full extent after the war because the precondition of that 3is, of course, that they had to win the war. 4MR IRVING: Precisely. 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
But the text gives us a clear indication that they are 6bound to start this. They are just waiting. They say: 7"As soon as the military, as soon as the military 8situation improves, we will start that" and in the end it 9becomes clear from the comments of Buhler and Meiyer that 10they cannot wait. They want to start preparatory measures 11on the spot and ---- 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
So the answer to my question is, yes, this comprehensive 13plan was only going to be implemented after final victory? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
To a full extent, but they were quite prepared and were 15quite keen to start it as soon as possible, as soon as the 16military situation would allow it to start it. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Because if you look further up that paragraph, it says 18they are going to get their hands on those, the Jews, 19outside Germany, in Great Britain, Ireland, Portugal, 20Sweden, Switzerland, Spain and Turkey. Now, how are they 21going to do that, except by some kind of peace treaty? 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think I have made my point quite clear. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you have, but can I just ask you this 24and see whether I am taking a bad point. The bit of 25Heydrich that you quote at the foot of your page 61, says: 26"Under the appropriate direction, the Jews shall now be

. P-182

1put to work in the course of the Final Solution", and so 2on. The word in the German text is "nun"? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Is he contemplating there that the work gangs of those fit 5enough to work will be got together straightaway? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
And that does not wait until the end of the war or 8anything of that kind? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Exactly. The "now" is another confirmation that it will 10start very, very soon -- as soon as the military situation 11allows that. 12MR IRVING: The entry was, as you say, on paragraph 4: 13"Initially, the Jews were going to be brought to 14'transit-ghettos in order to be transported from there 15further to the East'." 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, before they could start the coming Final Solution. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
But they could not do the whole job though until the war 18was over and they could sign the peace treaties with 19Britain and the rest of the countries? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I make my point quite clear, I think. I disagree 21with that and now I give you one, I give you one quotation 22and there is another quotation, the word "nun" indicates 23that it would start very, very soon -- now actually. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Part of it starts now, but the final Final Solution is 25going to be after the war? 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. I do not want to repeat myself.

. P-183

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, my Lord, there is an important corollary, it now 2follows? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not want to repeat that. I made it very clear that 4I quoted now again and again this quotation here ---- 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but can I now put the ---- 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
--- that "The timing for the start of the individual large 7evacuations action will be largely dependent on military 8developments". So as soon as the military situation will 9improve, they will start it and they actually started it 10in a couple of month. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I now put the final question in this particular 12context which is this. If peace broke out and all the 13Jews of Europe started rolling eastwards into these camps, 14these transit camps, set up by the Germans, what could the 15Germans do with them in peace time? They could not run 16the gas chambers, could they? They could not have these 17huge extermination operations in peace time, could they, 18because that kind of thing people get attention of in 19peace time. You can do things in war time that you cannot 20do in peace, is that right? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
You are talking here, you are assuming here, a total 22victory of Nazi Germany in World War II, and I can imagine 23that in this case they would be able to carry out whatever 24they want to do in Europe. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
They are obviously assuming a total victory; they are 26going to get their hands on Britain's Jews and even the

. P-184

1Irish ---- 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, of course. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- not to mention Portugal, the Swiss, all of them? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
So they are anticipating total victory, and yet when peace 6time comes, somehow they are going to keep these gas 7chambers and the whole paraphernalia of death clanking 8with nobody noticing? 9A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, they are under full, if they really had won the war, 10they were under full control. There was nobody who could 11interfere. Who could actually come and interfere and do 12anything about that? 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
It rather destroys the homicidal nature of the Wannsee 14Conference, does it not, the idea that it is all going to 15be put off until peace time, the final part of the 16Solution? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I made it quite clear that i do not follow this, and what 18is said here that this operation to a full extent could 19only be carried out after the war. So they would assume 20that they, if they had won the war they would starting to 21kill the British Jews, according to the minutes of the 22Wannsee Conference. I think it is quite clear here. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Paragraph 5, line 4, you say that in the case that they 24should survive these trials and tribulations, they would 25be murdered. That is just the spin you put on that "dealt 26with accordingly", right?

. P-185

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
That is true, yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which might be a legitimate interpretation, but, of 5course, there might be other interpretations. Do you 6accept that? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Such as? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think the text is quite clear. They are talking here 9about killing. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: What alternative explanation would you put 11forward? 12MR IRVING: Well, I did put this to the witness, my Lord. Is 13it not possible that these ultrafit, able-bodied 14survivalist Jews had survived the whole of this appalling 15experience and emerged at the end of it, that, as Heydrich 16said, "We are going to have to deal with them separately. 17We are going to have to make sure they do not come back"? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I think the context makes it clear that Heydrich 19wants to avoid that these people are the seed of a 20regeneration of European Jewry. I think from the context 21it is quite clear he wants to kill them in order to avoid 22that. He is not talking about building up a kind of 23recreation camp or something in the East where they can, 24you know, regenerate and become the core of a Jewish 25nation or something like that. I think the context is 26clear.

. P-186

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Apart from Eichmann, have you considered the testimony of 2any of the participants in the Wannsee Conference? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think I have seen most of them, yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are they all unanimous in saying, "Yes, we all discussed 5killing"? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, of course not. They were taken during the Nuremberg 7trial, the main trial, and during the so-called [German], 8that is the trial against the administration, and they 9were all evasive. I mean, for instance, the Secretary of 10State, Noimann, said he was not actually there, you know. 11You have this kind of quality. They were 12self-exculpatory. This is the largest killing, murderous 13operation in modern history and this is the key document 14we have. Of course, everybody who was there, every 15Secretary of State, every Civil Servant, would, of course, 16do everything to distance themselves from these minutes. 17So they had all kinds of ----- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there not evidence that Stuchart, in fact, sold at out 19Nuremberg to the Americans as a witness, and that if he 20had been there and he had known of what really happened, 21he would have been very willing to tell the Americans what 22happened? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not see where, what is the evidence for that. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, are you aware that Stuchart was, when all the rest 25around him were being sentenced to 10 years, 20 years and 26the gallows, he was released, sentenced to time served?

. P-187

1A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
What does it -- I cannot see the point. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: So what? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
What does it? 4MR IRVING: Well, the point I am making, my Lord, is there were 5about 20 participants in the Wannsee Conference. Any one 6of them would have had a severe temptation to go to the 7Americans and say, "If you guarantee that I am going to be 8released in the foreseeable future, I will tell you what 9you want to hear". 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, that is your speculation. I cannot follow that. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
And they all maintained a solid front and said, no, there 12was no such discussion? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, they find -- there was nothing like a solid front. 14They had all, I mean, all kind of answers to this 15question, all kinds of evasion, all kinds of different 16tactics. Most of them, most of them pretended that 17actually the only issue there was the Mischlinger question 18which formed the second part of the Wannsee Conference, 19and that they simply did not realize that Heydrich was 20talking about killing, and this was what most of the 21witnesses actually said. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: What they said that the January part ---- 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- of the Wannsee was all about Mischlinger? 25A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
They were referring in their answers, referring to the 26second part of the Wannsee Conference, yes.

. P-188

1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Is there any reference to Mischlinger in the protocol of 2the January part of the Wannsee Conference? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. The Wannsee conference, the minutes has two parts. 4First of all, it is Heydrich's speech, this general speech 5about the fate of the Jews, and the second part is 6about -- the Wannsee Conference is about how and who, how 7was the first part and who was the second part? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: We do need to have a translation of the 9minutes. 10MR IRVING: I have a complete translation on my website site, 11so it is very easy to provide it. (To the witness): 12Dr Longerich, the only other point on the Wannsee 13Conference is statistics, on population statistics that it 14contains. Are they accurate, in your view? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Not entirely. There are some mistakes in it, I think. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
There are some gross errors, are there not? 17A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Which one? 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
The French Jewish population is overestimated 19substantially? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, what they did, they made a mistake. That have a 21figure of ---- 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
700,000? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, and I think an additional figure for the occupied 24territory of 165 -- so this is a kind of confusion. They 25actually double counted the people in the occupied 26territory.

. P-189

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
What about Buhler's reference to 2.5 million Jews in the 2Generalgouvernement? Was that an accurate estimate or was 3it high? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
That is probably a little bit exaggerated. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
You say that is exaggerated, but, of course, Dr Frank in 6his famous December 16th 1941 speech talks of 3.5 million 7Jews? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, he says at 2.5 and they are [German] -- the families, 9their relatives, or everybody, he is talking about, I 10think he is talking about the so-called mixed Mischlinger 11or mixed Jews. He gives two figures. I think one is 2.5 12and then he says, "Well, and their dependents and people 13that are related to them" and then he comes to 3.5. The 14figure 3.5 is too high. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
65. Go to page 65, please, paragraph 4 -- page 66, 16paragraph 5, please. You say: "There is conclusive proof 17of 43 transports, which as a rule carried 1,000 people 18each", but the only source you gave on this is one of your 19own books? 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. There is more research about this in my book. This 21is, sorry, from where is that from? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: To Lublin, I think. 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, to Lublin. In the book I have a -- it is a list of 24the trains. I list every train with arrival dates and so 25on. 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Is that challenged, Mr Irving? Do you say there were not?

. P-190

1MR IRVING: No. I am just curious to know what his sources 2were. Do you agree that the transports were for the 3purpose of deportation to ghettos and not for 4extermination? 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
We are talking now about the spring of 1942, so we are 6still in this transitional phase, so they have not started 7what they call in the Wannsee Conference their coming 8Final Solution. They are still deporting people into 9ghettos and not directly -- German Jews or Jews from 10Germany, not directly, not directly into extermination 11camps. They will start this in May 1942. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
67, paragraph 10. What did Heydrich mean by the 13resettlement of altogether half a million Jews out of 14Europe to the East? This is the second sentence from the 15end of paragraph 10. 16A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I think this is in April. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
1942? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
April 1942. I think they are, they talked in the Wannsee 19Conference, they talked about this, the coming Final 20Solution, about this large programme to deport Jews to the 21East and to kill them there. And I think this is -- they 22are not going to shift their plans from bringing people to 23ghettos, and they now shift these plans to the next stage 24where they are actually about to send Jews directly to 25extermination camps. 26 So you can see from this document that they are

. P-191

1in the [German] they are planning on a larger programme, 2and I think they are just about to make the decision 3actually that these new transports will go directly into 4extermination camps, but I have no ---- 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
No proof? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
--- no final evidence for that. This is a document which 7was unknown so far. And we will find more and this will 8add to our knowledge. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is quite unsatisfactory, is it not, that every time we 10want to deduce an extermination inference, we have to end 11up by saying, "Unfortunately, there is no proof, it is 12just one's own conclusion"? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, I do not think I say that. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you accept that hundreds of 15thousands of Jews were exterminated. 16MR IRVING: Yes. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: So why are you criticising the inference that 18Dr Longerich draws that that was what was proposed? 19MR IRVING: We are looking at the overall figures, my Lord, we 20have to if we are to avoid the allegation of Holocaust 21denial. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are on the figure of half a million? 23MR IRVING: I beg your pardon? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are tackling the figure of half a 25million? 26MR IRVING: Yes. That is a substantial number going to the

. P-192

1East. We needed to know what it is ---- 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, well, there is more evidence for that. I made a 3calculation here. He said in Bratislava this would 4comprise six countries, that is Germany, Belgium, 5Netherlands, France and the Protectorate and Slovakia, and 6if you look at the planning for the deportation at the 7first phase of deportations in spring 1942, we can see, 8you know, 55,000 people from Germany, about 70,000, 9I think, from Slovakia, you can actually look at the 10different countries, look at the figures and you come to 11the conclusion that 500,000 is actually what they were 12going to plan at this time. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is planning? It is not what happened? 14A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is planning. This is planning. 15MR IRVING: But, you see, the problem is in paragraph 11 now we 16come to the Dannecker Conference of June 11th 1942. 17Dannecker was Eichmann's man in Paris, is that right? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, that is right. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
They are talking about shipping Jews from France to 20Auschwitz or to ---- 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
The document here is quite specific. We have the actual 23German wording, have we not? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
[German - document not provided] "We agree that from the 26Netherlands 15,000, from Belgium 10,000 and from France,

. P-193

1including the unoccupied territory, altogether 100,000 2Jews are to be deported". The note states that "Himmler", 3as you say, on page 68, line 3, "had given the order to 4'provide larger quantities of Jews to the Auschwitz 5concentration camp, to increase the workforce'"? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
The primary condition is they have got to be able-bodied, 8between 16 and 40 years old, but the transports are also 9allowed to include 10 per cent who are not fit for work. 10Have you any conclusion you want to draw on that? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, I think it shows you that they are not at this stage, 12not only using Jews as slave labour, but they also at this 13stage have started to include in the transport Jews who 14are not fit for work. So the plan is, obviously, to kill 15them on arrival in Auschwitz. So, the coming Final 16Solution actually started. People are directly deported 17to extermination camps. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is that the only conclusion you draw from that, that there 19is no other possible interpretation of the 10 per cent, 20that there may have been a desire there possibly to keep 21families together or to tell them they are going to be 22kept together or something like that? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. I would not at this stage, if you look at the reality 24in transition camps and transports at camps, I would not, 25I cannot agree that they had this humanitarian 26considerations.

. P-194

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen any documents relating to the building in 2West Germany of special camps for the French to be housed 3in? They actually went to Auschwitz and came back from 4Auschwitz to these special camps. 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, there is a small number of Jews who were deported 6from France, a relatively small number, who were sent to 7war camps in Upper Silesia. This is, you announce this a 8couple of, I think two or three weeks ago that you wanted 9to actually prove that the majority of the Jews who were 10deported from France were not sent to Auschwitz but were 11used in a kind of labour programme, but I have not 12received the documentation yet so I am ---- 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen the document that was used in the trial of 14Frans Novac, Eichmann's transportation officer? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, well, again if you have those documents, if they are 16available, I would like to look at them and to comment on 17them. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps I could just ask you to look at the two indented 19paragraphs in that letter, in that document. 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, again I am asked here to comment on a text prepared 21by Mr Irving. It is not an original document. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have no idea what you are looking at. Have 23you got copies for anybody else, Mr Irving? 24MR IRVING: If the witness is not prepared to answer a question 25on that document, then... 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has not said he is not; he has just said

. P-195

1he has not seen it before. 2MR IRVING: He is unhappy about it. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: But, I mean, it is a bit unsatisfactory if 4there are not any copies for anybody else because 5Mr Rampton would like probably to follow it as well. 6MR IRVING: I am just hopelessly badly prepared, unfortunately. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, you are normally extremely 8well-prepared. I mean that. 9MR IRVING: Not having the facilities that the huge team on the 10other side have. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us try. Yes, well, I know. 12MR RAMPTON: We do apologise for being huge! 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us try to see whether we can manage 14without a copy. What is the question, Mr Irving? You 15probably do not have your own copy now. 16MR IRVING: No. Could I have it back to ask you a question? 17I will read it out. The document is a Schnell brief which 18is an express letter from Himmler to the Minister of 19Finance, dated August 17th 1942. Your Lordship may 20remember we have had this document before, before the 21court, about four weeks ago. 22MR RAMPTON: I have not seen it. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have to say I do not remember it. 24MR IRVING: And it is headed: "Costs involved in the 25evacuation of the Jews from France". Now, this letter is 26in the period when you claim that the comprehensive

. P-196

1extermination period has begun, is it not? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, yes. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
The relevant sections reads, and it is in German, but I 4will translate it: "In the framework of the general 5solution of the Jewish problem and for the security of the 6occupation forces in the occupied French territories, Jews 7are continually being transported from France to the 8Reich. At first the evacuated Jews are being housed in 9the concentration camp, Auschwitz, but a special reception 10camp is to be built in the western Reich territory for 11them. The barracks necessary for this are already stored 12ready for shipment in the occupied French territory and 13they can be transported to the Reich immediately after 14payment of the purchase sum of 340,000 Reichsmarks. It is 15intended every month to send 13 railway trains with Jews 16into the Reich territory. By 10th August 1942", that is a 17week before the date of this letter, "18 trains from 18France have gone to the camp in Auschwitz which have 19involved the following transportation costs, 76,000 20Reichsmarks as far as the Reich frontier, 439,000 21Reichsmarks from the Reich frontier and to the camp" ---- 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
So this letter -- sorry. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
"The costs involved in B can be dramatically reduced or 24substantially reduced in the future by erection of a 25reception camp on Reich territory". 26A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, this is a letter from -- sorry, from ----

. P-197

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
From Himmler to Sherin Krosik, the Minister of Finance. 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, so the Finance Ministry, so the Finance Ministry was 3not -- the Finance Ministry, he could not write to the 4Finance Ministry, "Actually, we are sending Jews to 5Auschwitz and kill them there" because the Finance 6Ministry was not officially involved in this operation. 7So this is purely deception. The second comment I would 8like to make, show me where is the camp? Where is this 9besonderes Aufanlage, this reception camp, where is it? 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you are saying that Sherin Krosik, a Reich Cabinet 11Minister, is having the wool pulled over his eyes by 12Heinrich Himmler? 13A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. He was simply lying to him, he was deceiving him and 14I do not know where is this camp, this camp for the French 15use? 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Did you suggest, Mr Irving -- I may have 17misunderstood you -- that these French Jews were going to 18be sent back from Auschwitz to this ---- 19MR IRVING: We had exactly this conversation already four weeks 20ago, my Lord, and the answer is this is what the document 21says. They were going to be sent ---- 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I must say, hearing it read out, it did not 23seem to me it was saying anything of the kind, but I may 24be wrong. I thought it was saying, "It is very expensive 25and a security risk sending French Jews right across 26Germany, therefore, we will build a camp on the Western

. P-198

1edge of the Reich and they can go there". 2MR IRVING: And the purpose of the letter is to the Minister of 3Finance: "Please provide the funds because we can save a 4lot of money by doing it like this". 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, your evidence is this is not really 6worth the paper it is written on? 7A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
We know that about 79,000, I think, Jews were deported to 8the East and we have 2,570 survivors, I think, who managed 9to survive in work labour camps. This camp never exists, 10existed. 11MR IRVING: Are you familiar with the note made by the member 12of the Judenreferat in Paris, a man called Ahnert -- 13A-H-N-E-R-T -- on a conference at the Reisigerhuptsam on 14Jewish questions on September 1st 1942 at about this time? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Well, I do not have the document in front of me so -- do 16you want me to comment on that? 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Now then ---- 18MR RAMPTON: We have the translation of some of these documents 19provided some time ago, but really, with this witness in 20particular, it is essential he sees the original German 21and the whole of the original German. 22MR IRVING: I agree, my Lord. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you talking now about the document about 24the French Jews? 25MR RAMPTON: No. We have the translation, as I said, done by 26Mr Irving. It looks to me to be a partial translation --

. P-199

1I mean in the sense it is not a whole translation. With 2this witness, it simply is not good enough. 3MR IRVING: I agree, my Lord. It is not fair to put these very 4important documents to him. 5MR RAMPTON: Whether they are important or not is another 6question. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we talking now about the document 8relating to the French Jews and building another camp? 9Mr Rampton, what are you talking about when you ---- 10MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is the one, yes, and, apparently, there 11is some other document as well but ... I do not know. 12MR IRVING: I can summarize it, my Lord. The Ahnet document is 13September 1st 1942. It is a conference on the deportation 14of French Jews and the need to provide them with blankets, 15equipment, spades, shovels and food and everything for a 16camp to be constructed in Russia. This is another 17indication that they are not going to be sent off to 18extermination. 19 Then there is a further document which I intend 20putting to the witness which is referred to again by Gotz 21Aly which is a very important letter by a man called 22Walter Furl -- are you familiar with that letter? 23A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I think, my Lord, I am going to suggest ---- 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are not going to finish this witness, are 26you?

. P-200

1MR IRVING: We are not going to finish this witness today. I 2am going to have another half day, unfortunately now, my 3Lord. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Half day? 5MR IRVING: Yes, or possibly less. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Dr Longerich, you are based in England 7anyway, are you not? 8A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, that is true. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am afraid we are going to have to ask you to come back 10on Monday. 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
All right. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is a bit more time. Nothing is written 13in stone. 14MR IRVING: I think will put the Walter Furl of which I do have 15copies. On this one I am slightly better prepared. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you have copies for the rest of us too? 17Shall we decide where to put this, and indeed at the same 18time, Mr Irving or probably Miss Rogers actually, the 19other clip that came first thing this morning? 20MS ROGERS: I am told by your Lordship's Clerk there is still 21room in J2. Since the Claimant's documents have gradually 22been fed in in date order, at the back of J2. I think it 23is tab 11. If your Lordship does not have tabs we will 24provide them. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have tabs 1 to 11. 26MS ROGERS: We will provide you with an 11.

. P-201

1MR IRVING: This is a minor matter which I think will take five 2minutes, my Lord. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have just handed in Aly Gotz. 4MR IRVING: Yes, and there is an item on it called page 175. 5Again it is from the book by Aly Gotz or Gotz Aly who is 6an established authority on the Final Solution. He says 7in his book that this option of settling the Jews in 8Russia had already taken on a camouflaging function. This 9is his spin on the letter which is important. In the 10letter that Walter Furl, the leading Krakau resettlement 11organizer, wrote to his SS comrades in June 1942. I am 12only going to rely on the text of the actual letter. 13 "Only in retrospect can this be seen as an 14intermediary step on the road to the Holocaust." In 15letter Furl wrote, and this is what is important, Walter 16Furl writes in June 1942 to his SS comrades: 17 "Every day trains are arriving with over a 18thousand Jews each from throughout Europe. We provide 19first aid here", he was writing from Krakau. "He gives 20them more or less provisional accommodation and usually 21deport them further towards the white sea, to the white 22Ruthenian marsh lands where they all - if they survive - 23and Jews from ... Vienna or Pressburg certainly won't, 24will be gathered by the end of the war but not without 25having first built a few roads. (But we are not supposed 26to talk about it)."

. P-202

1 Do you see in this any echoes of the Wannsee 2conference, the road building? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No. I see something completely different here. I am 4asking myself what are your standards for quoting 5documents. This is a part of a document. We do not know 6where the document is. You know, we do not know in which 7context it stood. It is quoted by Gotz Aly, and Gotz Aly 8who has actually researched this area quite thoroughly, is 9commenting on this document, this is a camouflage 10document. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think at this stage I am prepared, because he has seen 13the context and the evidence, I am prepared to follow him 14here, if I have not seen the other parts of the document. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
But this is all he quotes. He does not quote any more 16than this part. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where does he say that it is a camouflage 18document. Camouflaging function, I missed that. 19A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think I trust him here. He is right. 20MR IRVING: Once again this is a document where even though is 21a man writing to his own SS comrades ---- 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, that is a ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- a private letter? 24A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Part of a private letter, a quotation probably. I do not 25know the context of the letter. Maybe it says in the next 26paragraph: "But this is all nonsense. This is

. P-203

1camouflage". I do not have the letter. Give me the 2letter and I am happy to comment on it, but I am following 3here Gotz Aly's interpretation, because it seems quite 4reasonable for me and consistent with what I am saying 5here. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry, Dr K Longerich, quite clearly if Gotz Aly had 7found any evidence in that letter of the kind you 8mentioned, he would certainly have put it in, would he 9not? If there is any other clue in the letter that it was 10camouflage, then, boy, wouldn't he have put it in? 11A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not know. I cannot speculate about Gotz Aly's 12attitude here. You are representing a document, only part 13of a document, no context, and you clearly said that the 14author did not accept this as an authentic, as a kind of 15document which reflects the intentions of the Nazis. He 16says it is a camouflage document, and as long as I have 17not seen the document itself I think he is quite right in 18doing so. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
But is it not another reference to the white sea which is 20what Heydrich talked about in Prague two months earlier? 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I think I do not have to repeat what I am saying. Yes, 22but ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not also a bit of a feeble answer, if I may say so, 24that every time a document comes up that it does not fit 25in with your own preconceptions, like the Schlegelberger 26document or something like that, you say: This is

. P-204

1unimportant or that is camouflage or you cannot believe 2what this document says? 3A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
This is not a document. This is a quotation from a book 4somebody quoted add part of a document. This is not a 5document. This is a quotation from a book, and the author 6of the book quite clearly states that he does not believe 7what -- he thinks that this is a camouflage document and 8one should not trust what this SS man is saying. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Dr Longerich, in your own expert report you have quoted 10any number of documents printed in other people's books, 11have you not? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I have done that, but I have not presented here as 13evidence for actually, you know -- I have not actually 14dared presented them here and saying, well, actually I am 15quoting from a document but I am not going along with the 16conclusions the author drew from this document. So it is 17a different case. 18MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not want to add any more to that 19document. I have put the document in. I think it is 20significant. The witness thinks it is camouflage. 21A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, I do not have any reason to mistrust Gotz Aly in his 22comment on this document, on this part of this document. 23MR IRVING: Does your Lordship wish to comment on it? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not. Thank you very much. 25MR IRVING: In that case, I would respectfully submit that we 26might adjourn now, it is a useful hiatus point, unless

. P-205

1Mr Rampton wishes to make a point. 2MR RAMPTON: No, I do not want to make any points. I am 3concerned about the length of time everything is taking. 4It means I think the schedule has to be rewritten. It 5means probably we will not get to Professor Funke until 6Wednesday. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why do you say that? Another half day and 8I hope it will be less. 9MR RAMPTON: Another half day and then I have a day or a day 10and a half cross-examination. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is half a day more than your previous 12estimate. 13MR RAMPTON: No, it is not. I told somebody, I hope it was 14your Lordship, that I thought it might go over one day, 15beyond a day. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you Dr Funke lined up for Tuesday midday 17just in case? 18MR RAMPTON: Yes, I will. He will be in court on Tuesday. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 20MR RAMPTON: There is only one other thing. I have from Munich 21now the relevant transcript which, contrary to the thing 22that Mr Irving produced, is not dated 11th May but 12th 23December 1942. It makes it difficult to find things if we 24do not get the right reference. I will pass them out, if 25I may. They are the Karl Wolff and it is the whole thing 26as well, instead of being a redacted version.

. P-206

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whilst we have that in mind shall we just 2have a look and see what it says at the relevant bit? 3MR IRVING: Yes. I think possibly the witness might like to 4look at it and be asked if he ---- 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Absolutely, that is what I meant. 6MR RAMPTON: The relevant page has 4 at the top of it, 7I think. I would prefer actually, my Lord, if it is 8possible, it is a good idea of Miss Rogers, that the 9witness really ought to be given time to read the whole 10thing. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: He can come back to it, but would you mind 12for my benefit whilst it is in my head just to find ---- 13MR RAMPTON: It is the bottom half of page 4. 14MR IRVING: Page 31 it starts. 15MR IRVING: I think it is a useful exercise, my Lord, if 16I translate the entire document. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would be grateful if you would translate 18now for me: "Nach dem rautign Uberglick". I can guess 19what it means, but I am probably wrong. 20MR IRVING: On which page is that? 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is the bottom of page 4, about eight lines 22up from the bottom, six lines up from the bottom. 23MR IRVING: "According to what we know now that it was perhaps 2470 people from Himmler to Hirst. 25MR JUSTICE "GRAY: According to what we know now". 26MR IRVING: Yes, that is the way I would translate that, or

. P-207

1seen from the present standpoint. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: You would rather have a bit of time to 3consider this, would you, Dr Longerich? 4A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to put this immediately after 14A 6in your clip. 7MR RAMPTON: The only thing I would point though is that at the 8bottom of page 4 of what I might call the authentic 9version there is a sentence relating to Martin Bormann 10which naturally makes a link with Hitler which is missed 11out of Mr Irving's version. 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Which page is that? 13MR RAMPTON: Page 31 at the bottom or 4 at the top, there is a 14sentence "G.W. Bormann" and so on and that is not in the 15version that was presented this morning. It is an earlier 16sentence, two sentences earlier, has been missed out as 17well. I do not know whether it is significant. 18MR IRVING: I will translate the entire document and I will fax 19it through to you at the weekend. 20A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
As far as I can see from the document, he is basically 21saying two things. He is saying, yes, we carried out the 22Holocaust, the Final Solution, we killed, we tried and we 23were able to, we killed millions of Jews. He talks about 24Millionen Morden on page 5, and on the other hand he is 25saying, well, actually Himmler did it on his own 26initiative because he thought that he could fulfil

. P-208

1Hitler's ideas. So I do not know, I mean I do not know 2how you put your case, you know, how you want to deal with 3the document. Are you saying this is a kind of 4confirmation that millions of Jews were actually killed in 5extermination camps? I mean what is the way you want to 6deal with the document? Are you only relying on parts of 7it and you would then refuse other parts of the documents? 8MR IRVING: At first blush does the document look self-serving 9to you? 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Yes, I think so, because he wants to, I mean Wolf's aim 11was of course to distance himself from the events. So he 12is saying, well, actually this operation was only carried 13out by 70 people. So he did not of course admit that it 14was a much, much larger operation. So there is a kind of 15self-serving in it. Also this is his personal, the 16impression he had. He is in talking in 1952 about events 17ten years earlier. Wolff was of course an admirer of 18Hitler and he tried to distance Hitler from the Holocaust, 19from this history. I do not see how much 20I should -- I mean I can accept this is Wolf's view in 211952, but I do not see how this could destroy the other 22evidence. Also which part of the story are you accepting, 23the part that Himmler ordered Millionen Morden, the 24killing of millions of people, or the other part that 25Hitler was not involved in? 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you have accepted that the order of a million Jews

. P-209

1were killed on the Eastern Front, I think, there is no 2question about that. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Despite your acceptance that it is 4self-serving, I think it may be quite important to have 5another look at this on Monday morning. I think it might 6be as well perhaps to have in my mind on Monday morning 7the reference when it was first introduced in evidence 8today, because my recollection is that you put it forward 9as being a document which could be relied on. 10MR IRVING: Indeed, my Lord, yes. I certainly will not depart 11from that. I am just about to ask one final question of 12the witness. Dr Longerich, this is an interview between 13Karl Wolff which he has requested to be kept confidential, 14is it not? 15A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, I do not think so. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you yourself say that the Karl Wolff collection at the 17time you wished to see it was kept confidential? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
No, you confuse two points. You referred yesterday to 19memoirs of Karl Wolff, and they are not generally 20accessible, but the collection S Zeugenschrift, I 21know this collection quite well, is open, everybody can go 22in the Institute and make a photocopy and use it. These 23are the internal interviews the Institute made in the 241950s. By the way, the interviews are in a way not 25verbatim transcripts. These are a kind summary that the 26person who made the interviews actually made.

. P-210

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Were they originally kept confidential, these interviews? 2A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Not that I am aware of. I am using this since the 1970s 3and I think they were publicly accessible to everybody. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I notice that Mr Irving's manuscript is ---- 5A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Not this one, but I know the collection. I spent a lot of 6time reading this. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving's manuscript is headed 8"Confidential" I notice, but that does not appear to be 9on the original. 10A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
Where is that? 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is page 14 in the clip you got this 12morning. 13MR IRVING: Yes. My Lord, access to a lot of these documents 14is going to be on the basis of confidentiality by the 15Institute, because these people are still alive. My final 16question is, this is an interview by an historian and not 17by a prosecutor, is it not? 18A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
An historian, yes. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you expect an interview by an historian to obtain 20other information from a witness than a prosecutor would, 21a different kind of overall picture? 22A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
One has to discuss the quality of this particular 23interview. An historian, I do not know this person, I do 24not know who -- I think it was Wolfgang Ziegel, as far as 25I can see -- I have my doubts about his quality as a good 26interviewer I have to say. I think he was sitting

. P-211

1together with people, chatting with them, and then he was 2going home and made a kind of summary. It is not an 3accurate verbatim protocol, a minute of a meeting. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you have any basis for saying that it is not an 5accurate protocol? 6A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
It is not a verbatim, it is not countersigned as far as 7I see from Wolff. So he visited Wolff in Munich in his 8flat, chatted with him, went back to the Institute and 9wrote down, you know, his general view about this. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would he have taken notes, do you think, during the 11interview? 12A.
[Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]
I do not know. I have no idea. Sometimes interviewees 13say: "Please do not take notes". I do not know what 14Wolff's attitude was. I have no indication of that. 15MR IRVING: Thank you. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will resume on Monday at 10.30. 17< (The witness stood down).18(The Court adjourned until Monday, 28th February 20001920212223242526