3 legged goat:The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.

That's a constant in Elder Scrolls lore. We've even met some of their leaders and they're generally not bad people.

I am disappointed by the lack of Golbez from FFIV in this topic. The guy basically kills one of your first mages, always ruins your shit during the game, mind controls your best friend, and then you find out that the guy was basically on your side, fighting a greater evil on the moon.

Well there is Magus from Chrono Trigger. Ya think he's the biggest issue pertaining to Lavos, but he's really just out to defeat Lavos in his own way. More of an anti-hero than a villain afterwards.

BathorysGraveland:Azar Jahved and The Grandmaster of the Order in The Witcher. Through most of the game you are led to believe that Salamandra is a terrorist organization with complete evil purpose, most likely world domination shit. However, when you finally meet and converse with The Grandmaster, you learn that, while their methods are morally questionable, their goals are well intentioned.

The Professor was just an evil bastard through and through, though.

Letho in the second Witcher also comes to mind. He actually swayed me so much that I let him leave in peace on my playthrough. CD Projekt really has a way at making great antagonists.

Very much this. The Witcher series has always dealt with morally grey awreas, and the bad guys of the games exemplifies the underlying theme that the books have stated from the beginning. Not everything that looks 'evil' really is, and the whole idea of choosing the 'lesser evil'. Other than Emperor Emhyr, there are very few transparently evil characters in the series.

Thatrocketeer:I am disappointed by the lack of Golbez from FFIV in this topic. The guy basically kills one of your first mages, always ruins your shit during the game, mind controls your best friend, and then you find out that the guy was basically on your side, fighting a greater evil on the moon.

Um...while he wasn't evil per say, he wasn't on your side for a good 3 quarters of the game. He himself was mind controlled and being used as a tool by Zemus...so all that killing and mind control Golbez was doing wasn't really him doing it for the greater good.

Clive Howlitzer:I feel the ideal bad guy isn't evil for the sake of evil. One of my favorite villains is Kain from the Legacy of Kain series, more specifically in the Soul Reaver games.

I think it was pretty well established that Kain isn't evil...well, you know what I mean - he wasn't the bad guy, at any rate.

OT: The heroes from Dungeon Keeper. On one hand they want to destroy everything you've worked so hard for, but on the other they probably just don't want to be enslaved, tortured and killed (not exactly in that order, either) which is a weird but possibly valid point of view.

Just about every Grand Theft Auto game has the opposite of this. Well, most people the protagonist interacts with aren't exactly good, but it always turns out that someone you thought was on your side turns out to be against you.

From a pure game-only perspective I would agree with Saren. Taking the expanded universe into consideration though, kinda disqualifies him, as it's made abundantly clear that he intended to overthrow the council and create a turian dominated galaxy (with himself at the head) from the get go, even before he 'found' Sovereign, and that he was just as much of a ruthless bastard then as he was in the game itself.

My personal one was Knight-Commander Meredith from DA2. My first few playthroughs were mostly pro-mage (the first time due to being one, the second due to being a goody two shoes, Merril romancing warrior kinda guy) - and while I did eventually pick the 'side with Templars' ending (just to see what happened), I was mostly atipathetic to her. Then I decided to play as a 'bastard conversation option' rogue in a Fenris romance and went full blown anti-mage and finally found out exactly why she's the anti-mage hardass that she is, and that she wasn't just a bitch with a stick up her ass - she actually had good reason

3. Talos wasn't a god he was a man who drove the NATIVE elves of skyrim underground in the name of the nords, nearly committing genocide, the native elves were then forced into slavery and blinded by the dwemer turning them into the falmer and now talos is worshiped like a god for it, even though he was just a man..

he was accepted as a god by the outer gods

if that dosen't do it oblivion kinda proved he was a godas you needed the blood of a divine to open a gate to paradise and you used his and i don't think magic rituals to rip open a door to a Dadric lord's summer home work on the wishful thinking of the population.

3 legged goat:The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.

I don't know, it seems to me that just about everybody in Skyrim is a total douchebag.

MiracleOfSound:Every single character in Game Of Thrones.Well, except Joffrey. He's just a complete prick.

I never changed sympathies for the best there... It always worked to the other side: characters that were introduced as good later find out that were kind of awful.Except for Tyron, he is one of the best characters in any fantasy novel...

-Seraph-:Well there is Magus from Chrono Trigger. Ya think he's the biggest issue pertaining to Lavos, but he's really just out to defeat Lavos in his own way. More of an anti-hero than a villain afterwards.

I was about to name him... Also, it helps that Toriyama is involved and Magus was pretty much "the Vegeta" of that game.

And all of the Starks. They never even gave the impression of having villainous intentions.

That said, I'm caught up with the books and...PHA+SSdtIGEgbGl0dGxlIHdvcnJpZWQgQXJ5YSBpcyBkZXNjZW5kaW5nIGludG8gZGFya25lc3MuPC9wPgo8cD5QZXR5ciAibGl0dGxlZmluZ2VyIiBCYWVsaXNoJ3MgbW90aXZlcyBmb3IgaGlzIGRpY2tlcnkgYXJlbid0IGV4YWN0bHkgdmlsbGFpbm91cywgYnV0IHRoZXkgZG9uJ3QgcmVhbGx5IGFic29sdmUgaGltIG9mIGJlaW5nIGEgZGljay48L3A+

A lot of the examples are from videogames, so im going to be different and use a TV show. Anyone know the French show Wakfu? Well the bad guy from the first season, Nox.

I'll put it in a spoiler thingy, just in 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

on a side note this makes him extremely ruthless and wont listen to reason, so he's as bad as any other evil antagonists

More than likely redundant spoiler warningPHA+WW91IGZpbmQgb3V0IHRoYXQgaGUgd2FzIG9ubHkgZHJpdmluZyB0aGUgcGVvcGxlIHNvIGhhcmQgYmVjYXVzZSBoZSBuZWVkZWQgdGhlIG1vbmV5IHRvIHBheSBmb3IgdGhlIGFybXkgYW5kIGZvcmNlcyB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIHN0YW5kIGFnYWluc3QgdGhlIHNoYWRvd3MgdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBraWxsIHRoZW0gYWxsLiBTbyB5ZWFoIGhlIHdhcyBhIHJpZ2h0IGJhc3RhcmQgYnV0IGhpcyBpbnRlbnRpb25zIHdlcmUgZ29vZC4gVGhhdCdzIHdoeSBJIGxldCBoaW0gZ28gaW4gdGhlIGVuZDwvcD4=

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure he was still evil. Remember his monologue about how if he couldn't have the kingdom, nobody could, and he'd destroy it before he let it be ruled by somebody else? Although, I suppose it could have been an illusion on the part of Teresa to get you to go through with the revolution--I never trusted her since the ending of Fable 2 (she's way too similar to Kreia from KotOR 2 not to keep a close eye on her). Logan didn't seem half as insane when the revolution actually happened.

I think you have a very good point about Teresa, you have to take everything she says/do's with a pinch of salt. I think that she doesn't show you what is actually happening but more what you need to see to put you on the right track. So she's probably on the side of good but then good and bad really do depend very much on your point of view.

Rheinmetall:Sorceress Edea in Final Fantasy VIII, who was at first presented in the game as the ultimate villain. Not only she wasn't evil, but for a short period you could have her fight along with your party. That happened because she was possessed by some demonic power, and somehow she was freed. I don't quite remember the details.

Yup. She was getting possessed by the big bad Ultimecia, "a sorceress from the future" who's evil scheme was compressing all of time to a single instant, thereby destroying the entire wor..yada yada yada... Edea received the powers of a Sorceress in order to prevent them being passed on to one of her adoptive children, and passed thse same powers on to Rinoa for precisely the same reason.

I think you can count any character introduced at the start of an FF game as a candidate for this thread, as so many of them are just poor misunderstood/misguided puppets...

My vote goes for Caius Ballad from FFXIII-2. Also Riku from Kingdom Hearts.

The Wicked Witch of the West. Cracked showed me the truth. By all possession rights known to man, those damn ruby slippers belonged to the witch, not the person who KILLED HER SISTER. And she didn't just straight up kill her sister's murderer and looter. She calmly asked for them back. As calmly as you can be when you're talking to the person who KILLED YOUR SISTER.

Now the Good Witch on the other hand. Looted the body, gave the hot/stolen item away, and planned the murder of the only magical competition in Oz. Dorothy even discovered that the Wizard of Oz was a fraud. Which the Good Witch probably knew. And Dorothy didn't even need to kill the witch. She could have just gone home from the start. But the Good Witch didn't tell her until all her competition was either dead or proven as a fraud. Putting innocent people in danger in the process.

TL;DR: The Wicked Witch in The Wizard of Oz. The Good Witch was more the villain.

3. Talos wasn't a god he was a man who drove the NATIVE elves of skyrim underground in the name of the nords, nearly committing genocide, the native elves were then forced into slavery and blinded by the dwemer turning them into the falmer and now talos is worshiped like a god for it, even though he was just a man..

he was accepted as a god by the outer gods

if that dosen't do it oblivion kinda proved he was a godas you needed the blood of a divine to open a gate to paradise and you used his and i don't think magic rituals to rip open a door to a Dadric lord's summer home work on the wishful thinking of the population.

but the ritual only worked as he was accepted by the gods as a god, he was still a man who was worshiped as a god, but he was accepted as a god because he was worshiped by so many, and he was worshiped by so many for nearly committing genocide. This could be seen as incredibly offensive to be kind of people he killed, imagine if a person nearly committed genocide and this granted him worship to such an extent it was seen as a religion, wouldn't you find that religion incredibly offensive, wouldn't the people that that person nearly committed genocide on have a right to speak out about this and ask ti to be stopped so a mass murder wouldn't be seen as a god.

*SPOILER* I think Dhaos from Tales of Phantasia sort of counts. Once you finally defeat him for good, the game really tries to make you feel like a bunch of chumps for preventing him from saving his home planet from destruction. In the end, he was simply a well-intentioned hero with abysmal communication skills, and an extremely low regard for the lives of those outside his home planet.

3. Talos wasn't a god he was a man who drove the NATIVE elves of skyrim underground in the name of the nords, nearly committing genocide, the native elves were then forced into slavery and blinded by the dwemer turning them into the falmer and now talos is worshiped like a god for it, even though he was just a man..

he was accepted as a god by the outer gods

if that dosen't do it oblivion kinda proved he was a godas you needed the blood of a divine to open a gate to paradise and you used his and i don't think magic rituals to rip open a door to a Dadric lord's summer home work on the wishful thinking of the population.

but the ritual only worked as he was accepted by the gods as a god, he was still a man who was worshiped as a god, but he was accepted as a god because he was worshiped by so many, and he was worshiped by so many for nearly committing genocide. This could be seen as incredibly offensive to be kind of people he killed, imagine if a person nearly committed genocide and this granted him worship to such an extent it was seen as a religion, wouldn't you find that religion incredibly offensive, wouldn't the people that that person nearly committed genocide on have a right to speak out about this and ask ti to be stopped so a mass murder wouldn't be seen as a god.

You are confusing Talos with Ysgramor. Talos, also known as Tiber Septim, is the first emperor of the third and current Empire and united all of Tamriel. Ysgramor drove the snow elves underground.

Also lets not forget that Talos is currently literally holding the universe together and is the most popular god in cyrodil.

if that dosen't do it oblivion kinda proved he was a godas you needed the blood of a divine to open a gate to paradise and you used his and i don't think magic rituals to rip open a door to a Dadric lord's summer home work on the wishful thinking of the population.

but the ritual only worked as he was accepted by the gods as a god, he was still a man who was worshiped as a god, but he was accepted as a god because he was worshiped by so many, and he was worshiped by so many for nearly committing genocide. This could be seen as incredibly offensive to be kind of people he killed, imagine if a person nearly committed genocide and this granted him worship to such an extent it was seen as a religion, wouldn't you find that religion incredibly offensive, wouldn't the people that that person nearly committed genocide on have a right to speak out about this and ask ti to be stopped so a mass murder wouldn't be seen as a god.

You are confusing Talos with Ysgramor. Talos, also known as Tiber Septim, is the first emperor of the third and current Empire and united all of Tamriel. Ysgramor drove the snow elves underground.

Also lets not forget that Talos is currently literally holding the universe together and is the most popular god in cyrodil.

OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

but the ritual only worked as he was accepted by the gods as a god, he was still a man who was worshiped as a god, but he was accepted as a god because he was worshiped by so many, and he was worshiped by so many for nearly committing genocide. This could be seen as incredibly offensive to be kind of people he killed, imagine if a person nearly committed genocide and this granted him worship to such an extent it was seen as a religion, wouldn't you find that religion incredibly offensive, wouldn't the people that that person nearly committed genocide on have a right to speak out about this and ask ti to be stopped so a mass murder wouldn't be seen as a god.

You are confusing Talos with Ysgramor. Talos, also known as Tiber Septim, is the first emperor of the third and current Empire and united all of Tamriel. Ysgramor drove the snow elves underground.

Also lets not forget that Talos is currently literally holding the universe together and is the most popular god in cyrodil.

OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

I am? Where did I say that? I'm siding with the imperials since a united empire is the worlds only hope against the Thalmor.

IckleMissMayhem:Yup. She was getting possessed by the big bad Ultimecia, "a sorceress from the future" who's evil scheme was compressing all of time to a single instant, thereby destroying the entire wor..yada yada yada... Edea received the powers of a Sorceress in order to prevent them being passed on to one of her adoptive children, and passed thse same powers on to Rinoa for precisely the same reason.

Yes Ultimecia, correct! The final boss that stopped me from beating the game. :( That left me with a bitter taste.

When I played the original Deus Ex, I realized pretty early-on that the NSF Terrorists in the game weren't actually bad guys. If you sneak around a lot you can hear quite a few little snippets of conversation between various NSF members, and I never really got the impression that they were the evil anarchists and baby killers that UNATCO wanted me and the rest of the world to believe they were.

Did they have a few bad apples? Sure. But it sounded like it was mostly due to the fact that the leaders were desperate for help and were far too trusting of anyone offering their services. I believe there was one NPC that lamented how the NSF leadership was offering guns and uniforms to anyone willing to help them, but didn't really take into consideration how many thugs would just take the guns and go nuts with them.

this may just be me but i thought that pretty much everyone was a bad guy in syndicate, then as i progressed i learned that no one was a 'bad guy' at least that's how i saw it.

all the people you oppose or kill are mostly just companies trying to sustain themselves through small skirmishes against each other to ensure war does not happen which is not being inherently evil or bad, and if there ever was a bad guy than it would probably be the main character or the other agents, but they were not bad guys either as they are sustaining the company as well by neutralizing all potential 'trouble makers' and thus preserving the stability for the people under the companies, it could also be said that there is no particular 'good guy' either as none of these actions are good in any sense but they are not exactly bad as well.

sorry if i am being vague but trying to steer away from main story plots and etc

but the ritual only worked as he was accepted by the gods as a god, he was still a man who was worshiped as a god, but he was accepted as a god because he was worshiped by so many, and he was worshiped by so many for nearly committing genocide. This could be seen as incredibly offensive to be kind of people he killed, imagine if a person nearly committed genocide and this granted him worship to such an extent it was seen as a religion, wouldn't you find that religion incredibly offensive, wouldn't the people that that person nearly committed genocide on have a right to speak out about this and ask ti to be stopped so a mass murder wouldn't be seen as a god.

You are confusing Talos with Ysgramor. Talos, also known as Tiber Septim, is the first emperor of the third and current Empire and united all of Tamriel. Ysgramor drove the snow elves underground.

Also lets not forget that Talos is currently literally holding the universe together and is the most popular god in cyrodil.

OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

In their main city in Skyrim? You mean Solitude? Because the only person I can think of who yelled about Talos was in Whiterun, which was the only neutral city.

You are confusing Talos with Ysgramor. Talos, also known as Tiber Septim, is the first emperor of the third and current Empire and united all of Tamriel. Ysgramor drove the snow elves underground.

Also lets not forget that Talos is currently literally holding the universe together and is the most popular god in cyrodil.

OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

In their main city in Skyrim? You mean Solitude? Because the only person I can think of who yelled about Talos was in Whiterun, which was the only neutral city.

-.- these mistakes don't make my argument seem very strong to they, I just considered it their main city because I spend so much time there, but my point still stands if a city that is able to remain neutral with a man worshiping talos so openly in their town center and promoting other people to do the same they can't be taking their ban on talos seriously at all.

In all honesty, there are very few "Villains" who are evil.I look at almost everything in the 40k light. Every faction is "evil" in their own ways.Storm Cloaks? Empire? Theyre both "evil", and at the same time, both "good". Ulfric wants to protect Skyrim and its history, culture and people. The Empire wants to take control of Skyrim to restore order, maintain integrity of their province control, and possibly use the land to help in the future war against the Aldmeri Dominion, who are arguably the REAL evil. Possibly more of a threat then the Big Bad Boss dragon.

In the end, almost everyone and every faction is.... Neutral. Even the Falmer, who want to take over the overland, are only "Evil" because of how they were enslaved by the Dwemer in their time of need.

Good, Bad, Evil, Holy, its all a matter of perception. There are only one or two people/things i can definitively say are "Evil".

While i know the internet has much hate for CoD, Makarov is evil. They basically said "lets take everything evil and put it into one person who the good guys can shoot".

Lu Bu is another great evil. Wanting nothing more the to fight, win and cause mass blood shed. Hes Kharn the Betrayer for the Dynasty Warriors universe. No "Good" can come from Lu Bu.

And EA. EA is evil. They want to monitor and control all life on the planet so they can make crappy sports games were contractually obligated to purchase or we lose our immortal souls, to spend an eternity in their marketing department making terrible commercials for products people grow to hate.

I'd like to take the opposite route because I feel it is worth mentioning. Good guys who you later realise are completely evil. And a character who I feel accurately portrays this trend is King Varian Wrynn from World of Warcraft. The guy is an evil, racist, genocidal maniac who loves war.

kouriichi:In all honesty, there are very few "Villains" who are evil.I look at almost everything in the 40k light. Every faction is "evil" in their own ways.Storm Cloaks? Empire? Theyre both "evil", and at the same time, both "good". Ulfric wants to protect Skyrim and its history, culture and people. The Empire wants to take control of Skyrim to restore order, maintain integrity of their province control, and possibly use the land to help in the future war against the Aldmeri Dominion, who are arguably the REAL evil. Possibly more of a threat then the Big Bad Boss dragon.

In the end, almost everyone and every faction is.... Neutral. Even the Falmer, who want to take over the overland, are only "Evil" because of how they were enslaved by the Dwemer in their time of need.

Good, Bad, Evil, Holy, its all a matter of perception. There are only one or two people/things i can definitively say are "Evil".

While i know the internet has much hate for CoD, Makarov is evil. They basically said "lets take everything evil and put it into one person who the good guys can shoot".

Lu Bu is another great evil. Wanting nothing more the to fight, win and cause mass blood shed. Hes Kharn the Betrayer for the Dynasty Warriors universe. No "Good" can come from Lu Bu.

And EA. EA is evil. They want to monitor and control all life on the planet so they can make crappy sports games were contractually obligated to purchase or we lose our immortal souls, to spend an eternity in their marketing department making terrible commercials for products people grow to hate.

IckleMissMayhem:Yup. She was getting possessed by the big bad Ultimecia, "a sorceress from the future" who's evil scheme was compressing all of time to a single instant, thereby destroying the entire wor..yada yada yada... Edea received the powers of a Sorceress in order to prevent them being passed on to one of her adoptive children, and passed thse same powers on to Rinoa for precisely the same reason.

Yes Ultimecia, correct! The final boss that stopped me from beating the game. :( That left me with a bitter taste.

She is an absolute horrorbag to beat. Especially when she pulls Griever out of the bag.

Good job the end cutscenes are well worth it. FFXIII-2 take note and do better next time.

3 legged goat:The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.

Pretty much this. Stormcloaks winning would mean the end of the whole Empire.