kneeling=me kneeling...and my opponent flat on the ground, probably with me on top of him (this also aids in immobilization) place your knee on his arm...and put your weight on it...and hit em.you can also use a one handed wrist lock on the ground....at any rate as long as you keep constant pressure on whatever lock you have...uke cant really do much....you can pin someone using more than just your arms...infact its probably better to do so...that way you can wail on em lolpressure points are especially good for pinning someone...if you know where to put your knee for instance....

Joe, I think it probably in the definition of "pin" that we are confusing each other. I would consider a nikkyo pin is complete only once uke is prone, face down and locked out. That would make it very difficult to escape from without first dislocating your neck/shoulder.

If I'm face down on the ground and you have my left hand/arm, how are you applying a nikkyo pin? I'm sure we are just using different names for the same thing (we actually don't name the pins for some reason) but I'm trying to viualize this.

From my perspective, nikkyo creates a "z" shape in the arm (borrowing Sensei Lou's description). If I'm face down with both shoulders on the ground, is my arm flat on the mat or in the air for the "nikkyo" pin.

Sorry Chris, I missed this question from you before. An honest mistake, I'm wasn't trying to avoid the issue or anything like that [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

For me a nikkyo pin would leave uke face down with the "nikkyo'd" arm raised and held in the "Z" position you described. If I am applying the lock to your left arm then the back of your left hand will be on or near to my right shoulder if I'm kneeling beside you. My right forearm will be across your forearm and my left forearm across your upper arm. The lock is applied by me straigtening my back and lifting your arm to take out the slack, leaning across your shoulders and turning toward your head.

Having re-read that I'm not quite sure i understand it myself, but it is hard to put into words. Hope it gives you some idea of what I mean anyway.

I think Chris knows where I stand here, but here is another point. If we will talk technique(which I really don't like to do)if you look at Nikkyo, the standing version and the pinning version can't be the same by the sheer nature of the takedown.In order to take them down you need to to straighten the arm, if you keep the arm bent, they can escape as they go down,so once down, another form of the Nikkyo must take place. Aikido purists won't accept other variations of the Nikkyo, but why bend the arm again. There are so many variations on the pin, Cato describes the 'formal' Nikkyo pin. Fujitana Sensei showed Nikkyo as a "z" lock, then pushed the elbow to the floor to straighten the arm but the wrist was still bent. With uke on the ground, she put her knee on the elbow and bent uke's wrist(pushed his wrist to his shoulder)till he tapped. One of the best Aikido nikkyo's I have seen. The key to any pin is that the pressure is on the lock all the way to the pin, and the pin does not allow slack in the arm before they pin it. The problem with the lock Cato describes is not the lock, but how people apply it. Most people take uke's hand to their arm, which creates slck, the proper way is to bring your arm to ukes hand which keeps the shoulder locked the entire time. For me, nikkyo focuses on the wrist, so I care less what the arm does, and I keep the lock on, the pressure continuely until the lock is in place.

My instructors say dislocate, leaving the limb useless, a drunk person may stil fight with a broken limb, but dislocated is impossible, also, I think the legal consequences of a dislocated joint would be less serious than a break.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robaikido:My instructors say dislocate, leaving the limb useless, a drunk person may stil fight with a broken limb, but dislocated is impossible, also, I think the legal consequences of a dislocated joint would be less serious than a break. [/QUOTE]

Just an idle notion...on the subject of practicality; if your defence technique was applied properly; eg ikkyo, shouldnt the aggresor be out of the fight anyway? having been thrust through the pavement/dancefloor? personally i'd never ever go for a pin in the street...depending on the severity of the attack of course, if its a mugger/rapist weilding a weapon id not hesitate for a moment to stamp on his/her head till they were completely out and flee for safety! its worth being aware of the possibility that they have accomplices who will hoof your head of like a football while your concentrating, or even worse, kneeling down pinning there mate.Ive seen young men get up from being stamped on, arms/hands/fingers broken, people arnt the asme when there on drugs/alcohol, wether its dislocated or not, if there willing to attack you; (these people obvioulsy arnt in the same frame of mind as the rest of us, well the ukes in my club dont run around attacking strangers a lot anyway:-) Also legal consequeses should be absolutely at the back of your mind in conflict, my sensei once told me its better to be judged by twelve than carried by six..if the situation calls for it do whatever it takes to win!

i find that in situations where a pin is absolutely nessecary, you cant beat a good choke...unconciousness being the ultimate submission there is. yours in training

I think once again it depends on who is doing the technique and how its applied and to who. You can say ikkyo can put a person crashing to the ground, but a good street fighter may not let you get it. On the other hand somone who has never felt it before may go to the ground in pain, and finally how you perform the ikkyo itself. We use our elbow and if we were to use ikkyo as a self defense technique(which we don't- the use of Ikkyo in our school is the mother of all other techniques we learn from the ikkyo)it would be a dislocation not a lock, so we dislocate form the beginning. Alot of people think it takes too long to apply the lock. Depends on how you practice. Some people can get a lock before others can punch. It all depends. Also it depends on the situation, sometimes a control might be better than a choke if its a relative or friend. There should be weapons for every situation. I agree in serious situations to go for the neck and a choke is a good way to do this. Neck throws where the neck is twisted to the point of pain so bad they pass out is another option, so it really depends on who, and what the situation is.