kirtu wrote:The Taego lineage itself says that the introduction of marriage comes from the reformer monk Manhae and not originally from the Japanese occupation although it began during the Japanese occupation.

Well, they might be hesitant to report that the imperial Japanese occupation government had some influence on their school. That would definitely look undesirable in a country where anti-Japanese sentiments run high.

Then Buddhism in Japan needs a modern Dogen or Saicho. Where is/are s/he/they?

Good question. I've yet to meet one.

Online programs can have credibility. Solely online religious qualifications are not viewed as legitimate. But if a person establishes themselves solidly afterwards with positive bodhisattvic activity them thay can overcome this difficulty. Ordination in general is a good thing from a social/governmental perspective. In Washington DC they give ministers an extra 2 minutes of time before the city council for ministers. Homeless/jobless/hungry people generally don't care where help is coming from as long as effective help can be marshaled.

I don't think religious certifications should be issued from internet programs. Any yahoo with a computer and internet connection can be certified regardless of whatever type of person they are in real life and then with those "certifications" screw people over and mislead a lot of people who think they're legitimate representatives of the sangha.

It will lead to a lot of problems.

If you're that serious about being ordained, then you should be willing to enter a seminary or directly train under a master somewhere. If you cant deal with that then just be a devout and supportive lay person.

Last edited by Indrajala on Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't see online seminaries, or even university courses as a problem. Besides a monastic education other, common forms of tuition are mastered by the student alone and the presence of teachers are only for convenience's sake. Living as a monk is a change of life form, similar to joining the army or other specific groups who create their own society within a society. But if it is about learning, online materials are as good as books and lectures.

The quality of teachers are not guaranteed by attending a seminary or a university. Moral integrity is not assured by a teacher-student relationship. This culture likes certificates, diplomas and qualifications. Papers to measure one's competence in a field of knowledge. But as we know, test results reflect only a temporary knowledge of answers. Religious certificates are not beyond this paradigm of competence. Jorn Borup's "Japanese Rinzai Zen Buddhism - Myoshinji, a living religion" gives a good look of an elaborate church hierarchy codified in a "big book of rules". Just to give an example, to become a "second grade teacher" (held by 44.9% of priests) requires: 1) have graduated from the Buddhist studies department at Hanazono University and spent two years in the sōdō, or 2) hold a Ph.D. degree (from any university) and have spent two years in the sōdō, or 3) have graduated from high school and spent seven years in the sōdō, or 4) have graduated from junior high school and spent ten years in the sōdō etc.

We may think that hierarchy is really a "holy order" but that's pretty naive. If it is knowledge and practice that counts, an online course can be as good as attending a seminary. There isn't much control over who can become a school teacher even though they are responsible for educating future generations - not to mention the total lack of criteria for becoming a parent. A Buddhist teacher in the West deals with grown ups most of the time who are supposed to be capable of making their own choices and they have to decide what kind of teacher they want to listen to. Of course, such view of adult men and women are just as idealistic as that of the enlightened masters.

This online seminary gives the basics of Buddhism and looks kosher. I think it produces more people who actively spread the Dharma and that is already wonderful.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

Astus wrote:But the Taego Order ordains only with the bodhisattva precepts and not the pratimoksa, so it's much like Japanese schools, except that they call them "married monks" to show the difference between "celibate monks" of the Jogye Order who take the full monastic precepts.

"Married monk" is an oxymoron in my opinion.

If you want to be a lay teacher, that's to be encouraged and praised, but calling yourself a monk while being married is misleading. I used to be fine with the idea, but experiencing Japanese Buddhism to the extent I have now, I've seen the flaws up close.

Speaking from a perspective in Japan, having "married monks" has done far more damage to Buddhism in Japan than Shinto nationalism ever did. Temples have become hereditary businesses that are passed from father to son. Priestcraft is just a business. Funerals and empty rituals is what you do to make money. In rural areas the community make demands that the resident monk get married and have a son to pass the temple to. There are so few people who take it upon themselves to ordain and become disciples (most Japanese priests come from temple families), and the system of hereditary temples has become entrenched in the culture, so if there are no "temple kids" those graves will be overgrown with weeds in no time.

Basically, when you have monks getting married the whole religious institution becomes a big business. To raise a family you need to earn an income, so your priestly duties are done to earn cash rather than for spiritual reasons.

And as time goes on people just see you and your "Buddhism" as a funeral business not worth investing much energy in. They'll call you when Grandma dies, but that's about it.

I actually agree with you on this. In my opinion alone and throughout some of the experience I have with some of so called Zen Priest, I find their teaching and their "zen" to be very corrupted. The reason to this is that they are not ordained but they self-claimed themselves to be Dharma Master. The problem with this is that it is almost impossible in my opinion to be a teacher to guide others to enlightenment and letting go of attachment when they still infact attached to many worldly things therefore they didn't get a full ordination. Because without strict cultivation and study under a great certified master, there is no way in guaranteeing one is on the right path not mentioning calling oneself ordained when they are still living with family is committing false speech because ordained Bhikksu have Vinaya that needed to be followed which they dont. They also didn't get the training necessary.

Some of them are very sexual and inappropriate in speech. There are those that denied rebirth or samsara all together, which then make their practice pointless because then they aren't striving for enlightenment either so then what are they practicing for?

Some of them have poor respect for the Triple Jewels and don't even understand what the quote "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him" means.

I also find it dangerous that they called themselves Dharma Master when many of them lack the knowledge of the Dharma and are guiding practitioners onto wrong path. Most of them use the idea of No Duality to back this up, but of course it is just a poor excuse for the lack of their knowledge. Dharma and Sutra study is require for correct views which help with correct cultivation, it is necessary but not to be attached to, Some twisted this around into saying "Don't study sutra because it is an attachment".

And you are definitely correct on the issue that they are turning this into a business. With the obvious fact that some places charge students a crazy amount of fee, but it is also true that it is being passed down from father to son. Which is just sad because there is no guaranteeing that the son is qualify at all to be teaching the Dharma not mentioning if the father having incorrect views would just be much more hazardous .

This is not an attack on Japanese Zen Buddhism at all so please do not misunderstand, and it is also not an attack on western Zen But this is the experience I have with some of the Zen Priest. It is not true on all Zen Master at all.

It is completely fine if you do not agree with me on this, it is my opinion on the subject. It is just that there are so much flaws in this practice that will lead to so much corruption and then ultimately bringing harms to others including themselves by guiding people onto the wrong path by teaching false things. They cause practitioner to be confused.

"After I enter Nirvana, when the Dharma is about to perish, during the Evil Age of the Five Turbidities, the way of demons will flourish. Demonic beings will become Shramanas; they will pervert and destroy my teachings.

Peace in Chan

Wherever you are, that is where the mind should be. Always be mindful, and be your own master. This is true freedom. - Grand Master Wei Chueh

Astus wrote:I don't see online seminaries, or even university courses as a problem. Besides a monastic education other, common forms of tuition are mastered by the student alone and the presence of teachers are only for convenience's sake. Living as a monk is a change of life form, similar to joining the army or other specific groups who create their own society within a society. But if it is about learning, online materials are as good as books and lectures.

Astus, to what extent have you lived in a monastery?

The quality of teachers are not guaranteed by attending a seminary or a university. Moral integrity is not assured by a teacher-student relationship. This culture likes certificates, diplomas and qualifications. Papers to measure one's competence in a field of knowledge. But as we know, test results reflect only a temporary knowledge of answers. Religious certificates are not beyond this paradigm of competence. Jorn Borup's "Japanese Rinzai Zen Buddhism - Myoshinji, a living religion" gives a good look of an elaborate church hierarchy codified in a "big book of rules". Just to give an example, to become a "second grade teacher" (held by 44.9% of priests) requires: 1) have graduated from the Buddhist studies department at Hanazono University and spent two years in the sōdō, or 2) hold a Ph.D. degree (from any university) and have spent two years in the sōdō, or 3) have graduated from high school and spent seven years in the sōdō, or 4) have graduated from junior high school and spent ten years in the sōdō etc.

That's just typical pedantic ways of thinking in Japan where seniority and certificates neatly configure the hierarchy. This happens in businesses just as much too.

We may think that hierarchy is really a "holy order" but that's pretty naive. If it is knowledge and practice that counts, an online course can be as good as attending a seminary. There isn't much control over who can become a school teacher even though they are responsible for educating future generations - not to mention the total lack of criteria for becoming a parent. A Buddhist teacher in the West deals with grown ups most of the time who are supposed to be capable of making their own choices and they have to decide what kind of teacher they want to listen to. Of course, such view of adult men and women are just as idealistic as that of the enlightened masters.

If someone told me they had a MA Degree in Vajrayana from an online tantra course I'd assume they'd been had by a scam. Even in non-esoteric Buddhist studies I would question their credentials. If they want to study under such a system to just learn then that's fine, but actually having the certificate for religious leadership from an internet program is something else.

Bodhi wrote:I actually agree with you on this. In my opinion alone and throughout some of the experience I have with some of so called Zen Priest, I find their teaching and their "zen" to be very corrupted. The reason to this is that they are not ordained but they self-claimed themselves to be Dharma Master. The problem with this is that it is almost impossible in my opinion to be a teacher to guide others to enlightenment and letting go of attachment when they still infact attached to many worldly things therefore they didn't get a full ordination. Because without strict cultivation and study under a great certified master, there is no way in guaranteeing one is on the right path not mentioning calling oneself ordained when they are still living with family is committing false speech because ordained Bhikksu have Vinaya that needed to be followed which they dont. They also didn't get the training necessary.

You sound like Daoxuan 道宣 there. He said the same thing: helping others is not possible without actual renunciation. If you are still grasping ferociously at worldly pleasures, how can you be expected to help others become free from them? To Daoxuan renunciation was not an institution, but a way of thinking.

However, in Zen nowadays anything at all goes. You can be married with a bunch of kids, smoking, drinking, shooting wild boars, etc... etc... and nobody cares.

He said the same thing: helping others is not possible without actual renunciation. If you are still grasping ferociously at worldly pleasures, how can you be expected to help others become free from them? To Daoxuan renunciation was not an institution, but a way of thinking.

Huseng,

It's like the blind leading the blind.

Or in the words of Master Hua: "You have mistakened a theif for your father!"

Huseng wrote:You sound like Daoxuan 道宣 there. He said the same thing: helping others is not possible without actual renunciation. If you are still grasping ferociously at worldly pleasures, how can you be expected to help others become free from them? To Daoxuan renunciation was not an institution, but a way of thinking.

I really agree with Master Dao Xuan, which I'm sure I wont be the only one.

A Cut out from a Dharma lecture by Chan Master Wei Chueh:

If we wish to attain this mind of purity, we need many auxiliary conditions to help us bring forth the bodhi mind. These conditions are the precepts. The difference between Buddhism and other religions is the upholding of the precepts. If the rules of conduct are bases on erroneous views, heterodox views, mistaking wrong causes for right causes, or mistaking wrong effects for right effects, then they will not bring about conditions for achieving nirvana.

Huseng wrote:However, in Zen nowadays anything at all goes. You can be married with a bunch of kids, smoking, drinking, shooting wild boars, etc... etc... and nobody cares.

It does sound silly but very true :\ and very sad too.

Wherever you are, that is where the mind should be. Always be mindful, and be your own master. This is true freedom. - Grand Master Wei Chueh

None, as you know. And I've excluded monastic training from what I said because its of a different nature.

I think monastic training of some sort of another is quite useful. The peer pressure within it also molds individuals in a positive way. The simple things like being scolded for leaving the broom in the corner and not being able to sleep in at your leisure but instead being forced to go to meditation are all positive reinforcements to one's development.

It isn't for everybody. My first experience of it was pretty rough, but I think it is essential for Buddhist institutions to maintain monasteries.

Hm, so you don't believe in the internet but it's OK if somebody had the teachings (or terma) from Vajrapani/Manjusri/Avalokita/etc.?

The contexts are completely different. In ancient times that a text from Maitreya or some other Bodhisattva could survive (as in be continually reproduced by hand) was because the contents were worthy of veneration, study and practice. The internet is a different realm where everything is reproduced and regurgitated on demand regardless of the quality of it.

I think the appeal to such an internet program is that people can live out their dream of "being a monk" while enjoying the pleasures of home life (namely sex). That isn't renunciation and such a person is a half-ass renunciate. Don't bother shaving your head and wearing the garments of a monk. If you want your sex and your dharma, that's fine, but then be a layperson with genuine credentials. If you want to be a renunciate and teach the dharma, then actually enter a monastery and teach after having obtained genuine credentials. I don't see any reason to take a "married monk" with internet certification seriously.

None, as you know. And I've excluded monastic training from what I said because its of a different nature.

That's just typical pedantic ways of thinking in Japan where seniority and certificates neatly configure the hierarchy.

You know the Vinaya rule about hierarchy in the monastic community, it's based on seniority and moral integrity.

If someone told me they had a MA Degree in Vajrayana from an online tantra course I'd assume they'd been had by a scam.

Hm, so you don't believe in the internet but it's OK if somebody had the teachings (or terma) from Vajrapani/Manjusri/Avalokita/etc.?

Astus, the problem with this is that, to be called a Bhikku or Bhiksuni, there need to be strict vinaya and practice which monastic life is necessary. The experience is important for the progress of cultivation and development.

One can take online classes while going off breaking precepts. The condition of a home-life is not suitable for ordination. It is however alright if they are a lay practitioner, not monks or nuns.

Also cultivation is spiritual development and attainment, it is NOT a degree that you can take an online course and then get a certificate for it. It is a personal development and realization thing, it is a progress that require many different form of practices like observing the precepts and vinaya always, strict meditation practice and many more.

What this will do is damaging Buddhism.

Peace in Chan

Wherever you are, that is where the mind should be. Always be mindful, and be your own master. This is true freedom. - Grand Master Wei Chueh

Huseng wrote:I think the appeal to such an internet program is that people can live out their dream of "being a monk" while enjoying the pleasures of home life (namely sex). That isn't renunciation and such a person is a half-ass renunciate.

You are being very judgmental here. The online seminary is being overseen by Venerable Jongmae and does not appear to be some renegade operation devoid of Taego lineage oversight. Additionally a person can become a lay Dharma Instructor in the Taego lineage and there might be an appeal to some people there.

In fact we will need different options for lay people engaged in deep practice for the Dharma to spread irrespective of whether a person is engaged in married life or not.

I've raised no question about the validity or importance of monastic training. Being a renunciate is different from being a lay person in certain aspects that's why I made no comparison between them. The Taego Order provides a way for interested people to learn some Dharma and be certified by that organisation as a teacher. Suppose the Nalanda University is finished and one gets a certificate from there it will be another kind of authentication by another organisation. Most probably a Nalanda degree will be more prestigious than one from IBS-Austria.

Still, I think that online education should not be looked down. It has its purpose and function. Definitely it is not a monastic training, not even a retreat. But if the materials taught are well organised it can be pretty high class which results in educated teachers.

First there was the oral tradition, then came writing and printing, now we have the internet. Gradually the spreading of information became easier and easier. This results in open source and zero control. Quite similar to freedom of religion. Everyone has the legal right to start a Buddhist church and do it in whatever way they like it. No king, no emperor to control it. There are already so many Buddhist organisations from very old to very new. We may take any side, join any group. The so called Chan Sect was a marginal group of different people that could eventually rise to prominence through lot of scheming and political connections so that today we say Chan is traditional and orthodox. A virtual academy today, a world religion tomorrow.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

kirtu wrote:In fact we will need different options for lay people engaged in deep practice for the Dharma to spread irrespective of whether a person is engaged in married life or not.

A lay person can indeed engaged in deep practice of course, but that doesn't mean he or she is qualify at all to be a Dharma instructor just through some courses. There are those that engaged deeply in their daily practice, they had a great deal of knowledge on Buddhism spiritually and scholarly, they had practice samadhi for many years and is still not qualified, not mentioning if he or she is still living a home life and is tied up with many family business and so much more. Like Huseng had quote what master Dao Xuan, a very respectable master, had said. Master Dao Xuan also emphasize the importance of vinaya. So basically engaging in deep practice doesn't equal to being a Dharma instructor if there isn't necessary training and not following guideline set out by lord Buddha.

Astus wrote:Still, I think that online education should not be looked down. It has its purpose and function. Definitely it is not a monastic training, not even a retreat. But if the materials taught are well organised it can be pretty high class which results in educated teachers.

The key word you used is "education". Online courses is definitely great, and it can really help people understand Buddhism somewhat more, but it is indeed after all just an education like taking courses in college or university in my opinion. It is not actual training which not only consist of education, but spiritual practice, samadhi practice and so much more guidance from great master that will help cut down on erroneous views, attachments, and misunderstand so that bhikku would be ready and qualified to be a Dharma master/instructor. Like you said yourself, it is not a monastic training or even a retreat.

Please excuse me for butting in.

Peace in Chan

Wherever you are, that is where the mind should be. Always be mindful, and be your own master. This is true freedom. - Grand Master Wei Chueh

Huseng wrote:I think the appeal to such an internet program is that people can live out their dream of "being a monk" while enjoying the pleasures of home life (namely sex). That isn't renunciation and such a person is a half-ass renunciate.

You are being very judgmental here. The online seminary is being overseen by Venerable Jongmae and does not appear to be some renegade operation devoid of Taego lineage oversight. Additionally a person can become a lay Dharma Instructor in the Taego lineage and there might be an appeal to some people there.

An online Buddhist education course overseen by a qualified teacher is one thing. I would happily encourage that. But getting the title of "monk" from studying online? That is only going to lead to many many problems. You'll have people walking around calling themselves monks while doing questionable activities. The average person who knows almost nothing of Buddhism will assume all monks are like that. The actual monks and nuns will get less respect as a result.

Online education is fine. Online seminary where one becomes a certified monk afterwards? No, I don't think that's a good idea at all.

In fact we will need different options for lay people engaged in deep practice for the Dharma to spread irrespective of whether a person is engaged in married life or not.

That's fine. They just don't need to be called monks. If you're married, you're not a monk. It is as simple as that. You should see how organizations like Foguangshan do it. There are many many devout lay people and they have options for them (additional vows, volunteer work, various honours and so on). Those lay people I imagine are married but they're quite devoted and work hard for the Buddhadharma. They don't need the title of "monk" to be devout and to do deep practice.

As I said online certification is fine, but getting the title of "monk" from doing it and/or then being certified to teach is only asking for trouble.

Astus wrote:Still, I think that online education should not be looked down. It has its purpose and function. Definitely it is not a monastic training, not even a retreat. But if the materials taught are well organised it can be pretty high class which results in educated teachers.

For reference, it may be useful to compare Taego's program with the pedagogy at the Tendai Buddhist Institute, which is training clergy through a mixed program of distance education and a series of ten-day summer intensives (like doing 60 days at Hiei-zan over six summers).

Astus wrote:But the Taego Order ordains only with the bodhisattva precepts and not the pratimoksa, so it's much like Japanese schools, except that they call them "married monks" to show the difference between "celibate monks" of the Jogye Order who take the full monastic precepts.

"Married monk" is an oxymoron in my opinion.

If you want to be a lay teacher, that's to be encouraged and praised, but calling yourself a monk while being married is misleading. I used to be fine with the idea, but experiencing Japanese Buddhism to the extent I have now, I've seen the flaws up close.

Speaking from a perspective in Japan, having "married monks" has done far more damage to Buddhism in Japan than Shinto nationalism ever did. Temples have become hereditary businesses that are passed from father to son. Priestcraft is just a business. Funerals and empty rituals is what you do to make money. In rural areas the community make demands that the resident monk get married and have a son to pass the temple to. There are so few people who take it upon themselves to ordain and become disciples (most Japanese priests come from temple families), and the system of hereditary temples has become entrenched in the culture, so if there are no "temple kids" those graves will be overgrown with weeds in no time.

Basically, when you have monks getting married the whole religious institution becomes a big business. To raise a family you need to earn an income, so your priestly duties are done to earn cash rather than for spiritual reasons.

And as time goes on people just see you and your "Buddhism" as a funeral business not worth investing much energy in. They'll call you when Grandma dies, but that's about it.

I actually agree with you on this. In my opinion alone and throughout some of the experience I have with some of so called Zen Priest, I find their teaching and their "zen" to be very corrupted. The reason to this is that they are not ordained but they self-claimed themselves to be Dharma Master. The problem with this is that it is almost impossible in my opinion to be a teacher to guide others to enlightenment and letting go of attachment when they still infact attached to many worldly things therefore they didn't get a full ordination. Because without strict cultivation and study under a great certified master, there is no way in guaranteeing one is on the right path not mentioning calling oneself ordained when they are still living with family is committing false speech because ordained Bhikksu have Vinaya that needed to be followed which they dont. They also didn't get the training necessary.

Some of them are very sexual and inappropriate in speech. There are those that denied rebirth or samsara all together, which then make their practice pointless because then they aren't striving for enlightenment either so then what are they practicing for?

Some of them have poor respect for the Triple Jewels and don't even understand what the quote "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him" means.

I also find it dangerous that they called themselves Dharma Master when many of them lack the knowledge of the Dharma and are guiding practitioners onto wrong path. Most of them use the idea of No Duality to back this up, but of course it is just a poor excuse for the lack of their knowledge. Dharma and Sutra study is require for correct views which help with correct cultivation, it is necessary but not to be attached to, Some twisted this around into saying "Don't study sutra because it is an attachment".

And you are definitely correct on the issue that they are turning this into a business. With the obvious fact that some places charge students a crazy amount of fee, but it is also true that it is being passed down from father to son. Which is just sad because there is no guaranteeing that the son is qualify at all to be teaching the Dharma not mentioning if the father having incorrect views would just be much more hazardous .

This is not an attack on Japanese Zen Buddhism at all so please do not misunderstand, and it is also not an attack on western Zen But this is the experience I have with some of the Zen Priest. It is not true on all Zen Master at all.

It is completely fine if you do not agree with me on this, it is my opinion on the subject. It is just that there are so much flaws in this practice that will lead to so much corruption and then ultimately bringing harms to others including themselves by guiding people onto the wrong path by teaching false things. They cause practitioner to be confused.

"After I enter Nirvana, when the Dharma is about to perish, during the Evil Age of the Five Turbidities, the way of demons will flourish. Demonic beings will become Shramanas; they will pervert and destroy my teachings.

Peace in Chan

I have often wondered what kind of karma one acquires when one so eagerly discusses the points of vinaya and at the same time one is never going to commit oneself to following it even in the slightest!? I'm not claiming that I have never done it myself, but I would like to be careful about that, karma is easily created and it will last for milennia, I also feel a certain heaviness in this topic. There is a good reason behind this policy that monks must get married, the answer lies in the history, maybe they don't like to tell that kind of unpleasant and nasty things anymore? I.e. the causes that led to this new and I would say healthy practice (of monks having to marry).

Last edited by Aemilius on Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aemilius wrote:I have often wondered what kind of karma one acquires when one so eagerly discusses the points of vinaya and at the same time one is never going to commit oneself to following it even in the slightest!? I'm not claiming that I have never done it myself, but I would like to be careful about that, karma is easily created and it will last for milennia, I also feel a certain heaviness in this topic. There is a good reason behind this policy that monks must get married, the answer lies in the history, maybe they don't like to tell that kind of unpleasant and nasty things anymore? I.e. the causes that led to this new and I would say healthy practice.

Would you mind to clarify what you meant?

Wherever you are, that is where the mind should be. Always be mindful, and be your own master. This is true freedom. - Grand Master Wei Chueh

What is there to clarify? As to the first point: if we follow the guidelines of the Lotus sutra one should never discuss such things as whether some else follows or does not follow the precepts. And to the second point: It requires some study of history and folk culture and common proverbs concerning monks etc in Japan (and Korea if you wish) in 1700's and 1800's.

Nobody forced monks to get married. They did it themselves. There are still some in Japan who are not married and keep at least the bodhisattva precepts as in the Brahmajala Sutra.

And about discussing another's failure to maintain the precepts, the 5th minor bodhisattva precept says:

5. On Not Teaching RepentanceIf a disciple of the Buddha should see any being violate the Five Precepts, the Eight Precepts, the Ten Precepts, other prohibitions, or commit any of the Seven Cardinal Sins or any offense which leads to the Eight Adversities -- any violations of the precepts whatever -- he should counsel the offender to repent and reform.Hence, if a Bodhisattva does not do so and furthermore continues to live together in the assembly with the offender, share in the offerings of the laity, participate in the same Uposatha ceremony and recite the precepts -- while failing to bring up that person's offense, enjoining him to repent -- the disciple commits a secondary offense.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)