The biggest quake tournament we’ve seen in many years, the Quake World Championship, is coming to an end at the final day of tournaments action in Quakecon 2017. This is the end of the line, the grand finals, there’s no longer room for gambling or doubt anymore, it's time to win, and get a place on the glorious list of the biggest champions in Quake history

Guess who came up with an ignorant stance of that sort in the first place?

The inflexible veterans of Quake. From day 1 of Quake Champions surfacing there has been strict rejection from a significant part of ESR. That meme is just the equivalent of the ignorance that has been cultivated here, an appropriate response I must say.

Seems very similar to the response that SC2 had among BW fans. I can somewhat understand where it's coming from but even if not everything about QC seems like an improvement it's still way more Quake than Overwatch.

They don't need to read ESR directly, have you forgot fatbiscuit and his rant about Quake? The attitude that Quake Champions is no longer the 'Quake' of the past traveled far and wide in between the ears of similarly inflexible and ignorant players that think Quake should not be anything like it used to be, despite most of the time having no knowledge of what it once was. You see, fatbiscuit popularized this nonsense.

ESR and Quake veterans started to burn about QC, opposition fueled by further ignorance added to it.

Yeah, that guy... certainly haven't forgotten his rant. I think his "research" into the topic is digging up other people's views from forums and regurgitating them. He definitely doesn't play like he's been playing a lot of Quake over the years, and then he calls others "pretenders and showboaters". LOL

He saying that has nothing to do to esr. Given his role as spokesman, he should simply know better. To exemplify:

He could say "We are not ruining your quake. Give QC a chance, and the time to evlove, and you will be pleased. And for the parts you are not happy, make sure to let us know".

That's welcoming people and telling them their opinion matters, as opposed to what he says which is dismissive, condescending, and a bit irritating as it implies "oh, you are still here? well then suck it up".

It definately comes down to execution more than ever before. All players have ridicolous high skill, doubt luck has much to do with it though. It's about being able to adapt to the new physics and rulesets. New game and all that. Skillsets that were kept in high regard in earlier iterations might not serve you as well in QC.Though some skills definately transcribes good, look at Coller's and Agent's playstyles, plusback and wait until you have your opponent where you want him and then strike, just like they did in QL/Q3, and just like in QL/Q3 it works (only not as good) until you face a player with superb execution.

Clawz never showed that much consistency in his quake live aim, this is unexpected.

Whats really suprising though is that other aim whores couldnt get their aim to a similar state as clawz (k1llsen, toxic, evil). Cypher seemed to aim as well as clawz when he streamed, hopefully he breaks out of RU elo hell at some point.

I wonder just how much strenx/k1llsen/toxic practiced, how much of their inconsistency is down to age? Admitedly none of them were that strong -unless- they had been no-lifing it and were in top form. It will be interesting to see how many of them stick to QC and rise up in future tournaments.

Well it could be due to the particular settings they were playing in ql and that aren't really available in qc?

I know that Strenx used cg_truelightning 0.8 for example. I mean, obliviously his, their, aim strength is not ONLY related to settings (reaction time, enemy dodge countering, positioning, etc...) but it could play.

It seems as clear as water they would always aim/track way above par no matter what but the few %tage missing compared to Clawz are maybe there? I think someone playing optimally with cg_true lightning 0.8 and timenudge -20 for years will miss a few more percent if he plays truelightning 1 and timenudge 0 . Matches sometimes are down to the enemy surviving with 5-6hp and at this level.

Killsen's , Tox's and Clawz' lg are crazy tbh; Strenx also but it seems a tad bit less than in ql (could be mistaking)

im not sure but I think there isnt any cg_truelightning in ql or there was no need for it cuz improved netcode.

Its true strenx actually used zoomfov 70 for lg in ql so this plays a part... but tox doesnt.
Tox had great aim at qcon and I highly doubt clawz lg hit harder but we will never know... cuz no stats, no pov demos and no pov vods.

so I played a bit today.....
I air rocketed an opponent and the explosion and all was drawing, rocket did 0 damage and no medal... afterwards I got fragged by an invisible anarki....
But ow well at least my sens is finally fixed after half a year or something. So maybe I might try to improve a bit regardless. Seems like there's enough money there ;) (dunno if I can force myself enough through)

the largest reason I didn't play up till now was just lack of time and that the sensitivity was bugged for certain mice (g303 which I have for instance) which made the game feel truly unplayable.(I never have a hard time getting a sensitivity right but when they added in the accel code my mouse continuously went insane.. So I played it a bit before than but not after that until a day ago.)
At least that bug is now gone so I am finally able to aim a bit again.

let's hope...
The bugs are extremely strange though so I have little faith in a quick resolution...
It kinda seems to show that the code behind the game is really strangely setup with partially different hit detection for different weapons / body parts / etc.

yo, you played well man.
It's kinda annoying that that the better I started to play the more bugs arose. Like my non registering RL or your non registering rail or the several instances where stuff just wasn't drawn (model / projectiles).
It seems difficult to have trust in yourself with engagements and stuff if random shit like that happens too often (like it did in our game).

Stuff like that happens waaaay more often here in QC though, like, its literally unbelivable. I guess it's still early and most of it will probably get fixed in the next few months. My shitty wifi was also affecting it probably (btw I saw that mid-air pass trough my face)

on my screen it actually exploded on impact on your model... was reasonably high on the model but dunno if it was as high as your face... I really didn't get why you weren't dead and how to proceed after that though... I think I swapped to mg and tried to get the last ticks... but you still had 90hp prolly (I put you on -10 after the midair as I counted it for 100)

I just call it as it is.
This 'lets try and talk our way through all of the bugs like they aren't there' which is happening on stream is understandable (and reasonably good) but there has to be some sort of feedback that the game simply sucks from a pure technical pov.

I already gave all feedback that is still relevant on the bethesda forum like 6 months ago or something? After my first beta games...
They haven't really fixed much.
Since I posted my feedback they just broke my sens which they now fixed... And the FPS have improved drastically. Otherwise all feedback is still up somewhere there.

I really hope that someone there can motivate and organize a huge group photo of this many storied and veteran players together.
When is the next time that Evil, Spartie, Noctis, Fazz, Rapha, Dahang, Toxic, Cooller, Vo0, Killsen, Avek, Garpy will be in the same room?
Maybe have the older players standing and have Clawz, Raisy, et. al. take a knee in front?

Shop in damn Cypher, Pavel, Matrox.
I'll just be the 201st person to say wtf Cypher not there :((((

That interview with clawz.... if hes actually like that, what an arrogant douche. If not then sorry not sorry. The world mourns over coollers loss tonight.

The game needs some sort of slow down/ map control. Right now, as much as I'd like to play (providing my hobo ass can muster up the 30$ for the game), I feel that duels are all about aim now. And there's really no fluidity, it's just who will win that fight. Cause everything is rinse and repeat kinda.
They have to find a way to include more map control, or prevent stacking up so fast... Idk...

Coollers play on 1st map was genuinely interesting, later on it just became a 1300 elo match.

Speeding up and Stacking up fast is more fair game because otherwise it always give too much advantage to a player who gets the major items....if you get major items, you beat somebody who is more talented and has better aim than you?!? That's not fair. A game should conpensate players with more talent and better aims, not provide inferior players ways to beat superior players by playing defensively.....making game who gets the items will win no matter the talent is a zero sum monopoly game and all about captalize on item advantages and about not making mistakes rather than fair and speedy game....

I just think that theres no long term cause and effect, no long term game strategy. Imo now it seems that you can't really plan ahead for 2 minutes or something like that. It's just basic situations that keep repeating themselves, and its mostly down to the shots.

And that's super sad cause I really wanted to get into quake, make it the only game I play. But everytime I play, I just feel frustrated that those chip shots don't rlly matter most of the time. Well I'm just repeating myself.

quake champion is more balanced game than quake live in my opinion but still unfairly favors item control over aim. yes item control is a talent too as aim but what's wrong about quake live is that it gives too much advantage to item control talent over aim talent. it makes the game painfully slow and defensive, boring to watch you know, to gain more spectator, you gotta make equal advantages to both aim and item controls or in my opinion give slight more advantages to aim more than item controls because it would make game more fast paced and more fun to watch and play. there is not huge difference between aim talents among humans but when you win item control, having 200+ more stack is like too much advantage and monopoly.

Hoping it doesn't stay this way. Coz then its only fun to play and spec at times, but the repetition makes it one dimensional and boring.

It the primary goal is to make it attractive to newcomers, the focus should be to make
*sacrifice more understandable - the hud information presentation is severely lacking (what team are you specing, what player are you specing, to much redundant information etc. constant switching to ppl dying, etc)
*working matchmaking

I beg to differ.......quake champion is still skewed to the side of item control because slow maps from quake live is still almost identical and items still give you so much stack.....it needs to be faster and compliment your aim more by reducing the stacks of items to be more balanced game.....giving you too much stack of each major item is like giving you increased bonus 100 damage to a better aimer.....not to mention aiming is harder work than item control....

Items in QC are FAR weaker than in any other Quake game. There's a lot of risk in going for them, but not a huge reward.

The difference between what you get with control and without control is small: 100 hp+ap over what you can get with minor items that can't really be controlled due to short respawn time.

Percentage difference between minimum and maximum stacks is much less.

Nyx and Anarki: 75/25 at spawn. 125/100 at full stack with full map control.
That's 100 vs 225, or 125% benefit.

QL: 100/0 vs 200/200. 100 vs 400, or 300% benefit.

If it was less "skewed toward the side of items control", there'd be no item control at all.

I actually don't understand the fascination with raw aim. It can be impressive, but it practically derives from what one could think of as your brain "frame rate". Not much you can really do to overcome it with intellect in an all-aim game. No strategies you can really learn. You can be like in this clip posted elsewhere here:

Be ambushed by a wild Cooller with a full stack on the tankiest champ, take a second to react, and still win in a way that requires no thought whatsoever.

Aiming, practically an animal type function, is important for sure, but it is definitely not harder than actually having to think about what you're doing or having to study and learn methods to work around your physical limitations.

no, what i am saying is that quake live is a game that is all items no aim...virtually no compensation for good aim at all.....i don't think sticking to items because of huge advantage it gives is strategies....

okay the link you gave is a good example of fairness of quake champ, cooller was smarter than clawz so he had more stack, but clawz has better aims that overcomes stack advantage of cooller...if it is in quake live, cooller would have huge stack that would make clawz's better aim into no effect...now that's not fair...

too much advantage from items makes the game too defensive, slow and unfair.

I dont understand how is simply going there where the item is hard work...having huge stack adalvantage by simply picking up items sound more like monopoly to me than hardwork....okay quake has been like this but quake live especially of last patches were too extremely...also .people have complained exactly how they gradually reduce the damage of lg slow down the speed of the game from patch after patch...

aim is not hard to you?!? aim needs proper position, anticipation of where opponent is, what weapons to choose, calculating speed of a weapon, anticipation of direction of opponent is going, and dodge and knowing when to withdraw etc etc...i would say aim is more harder than item pick ups and needs brain too...

I never said aim wasn't hard.
You are saying map control is easy.
If it is easy, you should be doing it, and no one would have a "monopoly" depriving you of winning due to your unearned "natural talent" you seem to think you have.

Most of that stuff you listed isn't "raw aim" anyway, but that's another matter.

Nah, you just want which skills are rewarded and in which proportions to change. This has nothing to do with "fairness".

Less map control than QC offers is NO map control.

I was never talking about "picking up items". I was talking about map control, which is all the strategy that goes into being able to "pick up items".

When you refer to "natural talent", what are you talking about?
If you want to assume there is natural talent for positioning, anticipation, weapon selection, etc, which there may well be, then you could just as well assume there is natural talent for controlling items on the map.

If you do that, then the idea that system does not reward "natural talent" as you say is wrong.

okay controlling item is a natural talent, but I was referring to those talents as natural talent because, there is no bonus reward in having a better aim as in getting items which grant you huge bonus reward, so getting award from items seem artificial setup to me as opposed to aim that reward you only the amount you hit. items are there for giving advantage to those who get it, so it's a fun factor in the game but giving too much stack is too much advantage. if you remove items completely, it will be pure competition of aim so adding items bring a different factor of a game which combines different skill sets to play a game. as removing the items, giving too much energy for item pick up makes game almost pure competition of item control as in quake live. in fairness, you gotta find the right balance to compliment both skill sets.

How can you say there is no advantage to having better aim?
You melt people's stacks quicker and from more disadvantageous positions, so they need a BIGGER stack than you just to face you.

Deathmatch has been about picking up items since original Doom. It's a core part of the game. It's what makes people have to be places and not just camp it up.

If you don't like that, I doubt Quake is the game for you. No one with bad aim really wins in any Quake, but having the best aim shouldn't guarantee you a win either---because it's not a one-skill game.

Items in QC are already quite weak as I explained before, so if that is not enough, the only thing you could really want is CA.

qc is a better game than ql but still i want this faster and more exciting game....some players in ql are so boring to watch like rapha and evil....ql is a fun game to watch but favoring those defensive players who play like extreme defense frustrate me...agent is extremely fun to watch even though he is a item focused player because he seems a very quick thinker and act quickly and being aggressive despite his not so good aim....i also saw many people complaining about game being too slow and too defensive...qc is on right track and still has some to improve from now on....

TBH I don't find constant aggression any more enjoyable to watch than constant defensiveness. I like to see a dose of cleverness in what the players are doing even though it doesn't have to be mind blowing. I usually enjoy watching both Rapha and Evil. Is Evil now a defensive player?

I find most of QC really boring to spectate. A lot of the time it is very defensive, and that has nothing to do with the fact there are items. It has to do with the high risk of confrontation, which is a byproduct of small stacks among other things.

It's funny you bring up Agent as exciting when he isn't known for his aim at all, so clearly there is more to this game being exciting than rewarding only aim.

aggression is what fun is..... I am not saying evi is a defensive player but his style seems boring to me, i don't know why and rapha is the most boring player i ever watched in quake live.... the game should not encourage extreme slow defensive style like his. it would compel spectators out of boredom..... I love agent playing because he is a quick thinker. I am saying game should encourage attacking style regardless of how good someone's aim is...

yes i agree QC is still very defensive game and can be more defensive than QL if you choose to play defensive but clawz showed how it should be played. QC should be fixed to encourage more attacking style playing because i am very afraid that it can encourage more to abuse defensive playing than quake from some long matches....

I think there is more to it than just aggression to make it enjoyable to watch. CA can have a lot of aggression, but it is boring as hell to watch. If there is some build up to the frag or some artifice in what the player is doing, it gives more meaning to the frag, and it makes it a bit more special than the million other frags you've seen in the history of watching Quake, regardless of how skillfully executed.

If your aim is not the best, you need to be able to get some other kind of advantage over your opponent. Stack has always been one of the usual ways to do that.

My guess is Clawz can get away with that style because of his confidence he won't miss.

If you can't just reliably out-aim the competition every time, then without any map control, it is just gonna be people trying to avoid each other until one of them can pull off an ambush or get positional advantage, and that becomes harder to do when the opponent isn't so readable because he has no item you can expect him to want to go for.

CA is same example of QL....it's boring only defense or only aggression....you have to have combination of both to be fair and fun game....Q3 is better than QL but ID made q3 more and more defensive to be ql and even in ql they make already extremely defensive game more defensive gradually patch after patch for just to suit the game more to their country man rapha's extreme defensive style..and they lose people in return....hope they wake up and stop doing the conspiracy make fair game now...

What i mean is that game should be fair......in quake live, item advantage is too huge that one who gets the items beat better talented players....item advantage is too huge in quake live that the game itself becomes unfair...

There's no such a thing as 'fair' or 'right' when you are comparing game designs. Any set of rules defines a different game in its own right, and people may like it, have fun with it, and thing its good. If that's not the case, then you can say the design sucks.

And to add my 2 cent, people are really bad at predicting what they would like or dislike. I've seen it countless of times that a certain design idea turns out to make the game quite different than one thought.

Actually i think what Clawz said was normal. There is nothing wrong with being confident and dont by shy about it. Its truth, that theres no accidents, only cause and effect. He clearly put his money where his mouth is.

I still don't understand all the negativity and bashing about Clawz interview...

I understand Cooller is awesome and that you prefer his style (which allowed him to win many games vs aim-heavy players so in the end slow games are sometimes paying), but I just don't hear anything shocking or insulting in Clawz interview.

The best thing about this qcon is having the stream with cypher commenting, giving his insights and highlights about the stuff happenning in all these crazy matches. I bet this explicit verbal analysis will give cypher much advancement in his own future strategies making him even more efficient and surprising to his opponents.

Honestly, I always saw cypher as an infantile eccentic and a bit shallow yet cute figure. Now I see him as having definitely matured while still reserving a pleasant childish stance, which I certainly respect.

Different games means different top players. In Quake it so happened that vanilla Q3/QL was played for over a decade so it was dominated by the same players, but that doesn't mean the top Q3/QL players are going to dominate all Quakes or all games, or that they have to be the best at something to give it credibility.

For example in the two periods Quake had its biggest prize pools (Q4 and QC) the Q3 duel guys weren't remotely close to winning the biggest tournaments. Only cooller was and that's the only one guy. Heck, yesterday in the semis you saw a CPMA/PK player (Voo) a very late QL-only player (post major tournaments. Clawz), a Q2 player (Dahang) and one Q3 player (Cooller).

I would agree if they were consistently top at least for some period.
But in QC we have a lot of various players who go back and forth between top and "just ok" results, and also a lot of full 5 round maps between very distinct (in terms of expected results) players, which all to me means that the issue is with the game being too much random.

We had already some QC tournaments. Clawz/vo0 final is unexpected not because they weren't Q3/QL heroes, it's unexpected because they weren't QC heroes.

I think a big part is that the game's just so goddamn new, that individual players can employ an incredibly diverse set of playstyles due to the champions, and that the game is often asymmetrical (i.e. not both players have the same champions).

Let's say you are cypher. You don't only have to know how evil plays and thinks anymore. You have to know how evil plays with ranger against your nyx, on map so-and-so, and then the same for a different champion setup, and then all of that again on a different map. And that's only for one player. The difference in approach between the maps is stronger because of the asymmetry in champions (particularly the cpm champions), a ranger-anarki game on Ruins of Sarnath is different from a ranger-anarki game on dm6. Maybe they should get rid of the 3-champions rule, and just make 5-minute rounds where you keep the same champion throughout, but have like 3 lives or whatever, so we stop having so many damn possibilities.

I think competitive matches are going to become more refined given enough time, assuming the gameplay stays reasonably stable over a long period (like, a few years).

Ahaha I thought the same thing. You know something is wrong with this game, when they have basically lost me as a player. Someone who was entirely able to play 5-6 hours a day in quake live, but I had 2 weeks off before quake con and if I played an hour a day it felt like a drag the game is that hard to enjoy. I will admit however it does feel better on LAN/Dallas server, so I think I'll grin and bear it and play a bit when I return home.

Same happened to me as well. I heavily played QC at the beginning, managing to even beat rapha in a pub game, but the game was so bad I just stopped playing.

It has a something that feels like it's a drag. Could be the lag, the lack of visibility (have to focus harder to enjoy the game), the long queue times, having to frequently restart the game due to memory leaks, but it's just not fun after the second game of the day. QC is the only multiplayer game that has made me feel that way.

Could it be the speed cap? I don't know how people aren't freaking out about this. Even with the default 130 fov setting this game does NOT feel quick. And it's precisely the speed cap, you're used to the feeling of acceleration but you're obviously not getting it because you're at the limiter after one and a half jumps.

There was a pretty funny moment in the evil-fazz game where fazz suddenly gains a much higher amount of speed because the teleporters seem to transfer vertical speed into horizontal one: https://youtu.be/UB_t2KmYKnI?t=51m36s (linked a bit before the moment, to emphasize the contrast)

Like, it's shocking how fast he's suddenly going there, because we usually don't see the game at that speed.

Even with moderately good technique you could feel some acceleration beyond a couple jumps in previous games so I think you're correct. I do feel it's a combination of this and running speed being under 320 for many champions (you're not permanently doing speed jumping around the maps, so this is also important).

I have little trust in their technology so I am also tempted to say the speed caps may help prevent too much breakage of the client prediction (and thus hitreg), which would provide a limit to how much they could raise the limits if they wanted to.

Nah at no point did I heavily play, I've been busy irl as well, but I just struggle to get into it, which was a main reason I wanted to go to this tournament even if I knew it was gonna be hard to do well with basically next to no play time, which in some aspects it's worked because I am keen to play more now. The sound in this game sucks and the way the games go sometimes also sucks but it could maybe be good if they made a few changes which I'm sure they won't :p

I didn't even get to the point where all the bugs and netcode inconsistencies mattered. Moving just doesn't feel fun. Even the bland q3/ql movement feels spectacular compared to this shite because you don't have a speed cap and when you clip a corner you get that "noice" feeling. If I load up cpm22 and just jump around for 2 minutes in CPM that's gonna be more fun than anything I can foresee in QC.

I would say if there was a competitive game mode of Duel - then we could at least have a slightly better visibility on the champions because fuck me, ranger blends in to pretty much every angle of bloodrun and blood covenant.

Anything but Ketchup and Mustard please. The guys talk on endlessly about anything except the actual game. Too much meta discussion, barely any tactical analysis. But for guys who aren't really quake players themselves they're doing a good job.

YES BUT THEY'RE BROTHERS AND THEY LOOK THE SAME AND THEY PLAYED LONG TIME QUAKE AND YOU MUST LOVE THEM OR FUCK OFF

That's pretty much what I got told by supposed 'old school' quakers.

It should have been fucking zoot and ddk. Those are the people that we watched for how many years on facey and zotac and 125fps? Fucking get the fuck out with all these other tards, especially grey-hair mother fucker with that shitty little soul patch. Christ. Between his clothes and 'facial hair,' I can't tell if he's trying to be modern or some soul patch dickhead from 1998.

I think he meant the time when zoot started streaming. IEM and other big tournaments dropped QL, all regular casters disappeared. It felt like there is a big void with only zotac cups running that weren't even streamed, where before there was a big lan every month or two. Few guys tried to cast these online cups but were terrible until zoot stepped in and carried the torch for a very long time. Not my favorite caster but he'll always have my respect for this.

So? He played quake on a high level + really like the game. Not only he commentated, but also did more than a few youtube videos about quake even when faceit moved on to other games. He is a cool dude, good player@quake and a great commentator.

Never like to pile on, but I've read all the BLU background and criticism - he just needs to stop. casting. today. What's your hurry dude? You have somewhere you need to be?(please...)
His enthusiasm&delivery sounds manufactured and plastic, almost like he's gonna break into auctioneer mode. I'm not buying.

All the games are so close, but its getting more tiresome than exciting now.

Its like watching a pro Hearthstone tournament. All the players are really good, but from those good players it seems almost random who wins in the end. Hearthstone is really popular, so maybe that is what Id wants.

obv a joke . =p . What i would like tho is demos . Or as a backup solution to theyr beta game, record full povs from both players and release the videos , or atleast the winner pov as a minimum. Easily done, will never happen .

I've used a wmo at default for about 12 months without realising my OC has failed and my aim was still beastly.

At the time I was using a really low sense.

There was also a time where Rapha was using the wmo default for a short time and because his sense and accel was really high for general quake standards he was doing well. He mentioned it on one of his streams.

1st of all: my point was about USING ANOTHER MOUSE, not another hz, learn to read.

2nd: nex1 already wrote about another things, and I add: if hz doesn't change anything, why Tox changed to another mouse? According to your logic he must be some kind of retard because he didn't have any reason to do that.

3rd: another thing more hz gives: smoother (better) aim, specially for medium to higher sensitivity (less inches to make a 360) and for tracking weapons (and tox has always been known for his beastly aim, especially with lg, the most tracking weapon there is. Coincidence? No). For too low sensitivity it doesn't really affect much.

I used a 1.1a @125 hz back in the RtCW / Enemy Territory days, #3 in regards to aim next to RaZiel, Maus, Butchji and a handful of some of the best objective runners in the game. So yeah, my aim even in Quake is up there with a shit tonne of what are deemed as the top players (Obs not Tox level)

I stopped caring about quake back in 2010/11 after breaking my wrists.

Hz doesn't give you better aim, it helps aid in malfunction depending mouse/mouse pad. If hz gave you better aim shit, everyone would be making mice that run at stupid high polling rates.

One thing that separates tox's aim is just the way he plays and his actual keybinding layout.

If you want to get super technical about it - He uses C to shoot, so not using his finger to left click down on a mouse leaves your arm without any tension whatsoever, in turn give you better control of the mouse.

It's the same from a physiological point where a few old school players use space to shoot because the time to react from a thumb to any other fingers is significantly quicker.

TL;DR

Hardware only gets you so far. The rest is technique and a willingness to improve.

I make zero sense... LOL
Ok, so WHY does EVERY pro player (just as a good reference) that uses 500 or 1000hz (most of them if not all of them use one of those) don't go back to 125?

You saying more hz than default doesn't make it smoother is the same as saying more than default max fps doesn't make it smoother too, jesus. Just because YOU don't feel the difference doesn't mean it's the same for every fucking else. I feel it and most "serious" or pro players feel it too.

But you probably can't even really give a decent answer to the question I made above anyway, because there isn't one. I won't respond to your nonsense anymore

Because technology has improved and things run a lot more consistently? That's why.

Again, you're getting too emotional, pretty sure I didn't say 125 hz > 500 or 1000hz - I would pick 500hz over anything, however if I were to go back to 125hz it wouldn't bother me too much because you can adjust back to it.

I honestly have no idea how you can just speculate random shit, it's like you're pulling things out of your own ass and your opinion is FINAL.

TL;DR

So your opinion is final and everyone should bow down to your thoughts? LUL

They said that "giving 12 spots to EU and 12 spots to NA" was just because it was a "test tournament".

Let's see if they keep their word... Next time, normally we should see 4 times as many spots for Europeans. I really don't see why the likes of Nitrino, Garpy, Prox1mo or Stermy should give up their spot to make space for weaker players... Isn't the goal to have all the best players in the world fighting for the title ?

Somebody needs to code an 'auto delay' camera. The idea is that the way quake is streamed or watched is on a delay in spectator mode. So everything you see (unless you choose to not watch that way) would be 10 seconds or so in the past.

The camera would then already know which people on the server die or not and in games like sacrifice, it would auto choose to spec people that wont insta die. Like how if someone jumps on a quad and then you spectate him and he insta dies and then you spec another fucker and he also insta dies for like 5 times in a row everyone you are watching dies.

That shit would not exist with the auto camera delay.

Also when someone is about to get fragged, the camera could auto turn to third person mode so you can see the battle (like in quake 1 netquake, we didnt have first person spectating, and it was fine)

The auto delay camera would also see which players get frag streaks in the past 10 seconds, so you'd see a ton of amazing frag runs and sick plays.

And they may be able to code it so that it can see flag runs and caps (sacrifice runs too) so that you'd see a whole run unbroken

I don't play QC. I played quake for 17 years and I couldn't understand a god damn thing in sacrifice. The fact that quake is not watchable to a new person couldn't be any more evident to me. Camera jumps every 2.5 sec and I have no idea who's going where and why.

Duel is a bit easier, but still unwatchable. It takes an hour to figure out who's who. Why people die in a fight. What is the score and what does it mean. Maps are bland. (Someone posted exposure pictures recently). Champions are not clear. Timers, medals, sparks... everything possible to distract the viewer from the essense of the game. It looks great, it has 0 spectator value. First quakecon i didn't watch the finals and probably not going to.

2z look insane, they're like that alien race from ender's game on meth. Latrommi and clawz ain't human with them lgs.

I really like zsx's commentary, he provides good insight to the strategies and the deeper picture of the game. It was good hearing from 2gd at the analyst desk too, he too provided good behind the scenes info on top of being a good analyst.

Sacrifice is a huge shitshow, they should instantly turn off followkiller, because that killer is often already dead before the camera switch happens.
For the future they should consider using lower teamsizes like 3vs3 or even 2vs2.

Thanks for the guerilla-VoD-uploaders.
After all these years, [id] still doesn't understand that most of their players/viewers are from the european timezone, 20+ years old and therefore have to work on fridays, which is why they can't stay up on thursday to watch their schedule from 23:15 to 04:15+ CEST.

Spectators get feeded by server snapshots, so they see a combination of netcode and hitbox.
I just watched NoToFaSt vs. winz; there were some visible rubberbands and lags on stermy's PoV during the first map.
I also hoped that the source would be something harmless, like just a graphical misrepresentation on the PoV of the spectator or the spectator computer having problems.
But then I saw that Fraze also complained about stuttering and lags from a player's PoV:http://www.esreality.com/post/2888477/re-quak...pid2888477
So my concern is, that it is esports unready while players rather stfu than publicly complain about it.

When everyone screams wolves (forum text: player feedback),
I smell wolves (ingame senses: railhits behind the model, 0-dmg-directs, ...)
and
I also see wolves (online videos: youtube/twitch);
I expect it to be wolves.

But technically you are right,
inbetween all those wolves, there might be some hidden pumas aswell (problems with the spectator's PoV).
The addition of pumas doesn't make the horde of wolves any better.

was the first sacrificy match i watched from start to finish and i dont get all the whine, yes its chaotic from time to time but its certainly easier to follow than ctf and the charge up - round system is mroe exciting than timelimit play

The first Quakecon QC 1v1 finals is reminiscent of the first Quakecon QL 1v1 finals back in 2008. 'New blood' vs an old legend (Cypher vs Zero4). Cypher managed to win this one. Will we see a repeat of that nearly a decade later?

Also wow, so DaHanG is actually good at this game (regarding duel). Wish he had trained for this properly :(, his chances would have been higher definitely. This should be a signal for him to finally drop that shitty game OW and get back to Quake duel

Of course he is sarcastic, in duel the top3 are from europe, so no murican on the podium and in sacrifice the final also will be played between 2 european teams while there won't be a match for the 3rd place.

This is one of our main goals. One of the things that we've learned over the years is that to create an established esports game you need to make it very spectator-friendly. We are working HARD on the spectator features to be able to capture all the highlights that are happening in the game.

duel is completely fine, maybe some tweaks would be nice. btw i think this is the best quake ever made in this aspect and also many others.

problem is with sacrifice. please let me watch someone who lives more than 5 seconds and ill be fine.
switch instantly from deathcam, this is so anticlimactic when there is very fast action going on and boom, some dies (happens very often in quake, huh?) and the camera is fucking stuck for 5 seconds and i feel like someone is taking all the fun and hype from me, then i have to wait another minutes to see great action so i get interested again.

considering there were about 1000 people playing it on steam a day before quakecon it just goes to show quake community is a lot more dedicated to follow the scene events compared to other titles.

this is where true potential of quake is at: the gameplay allows people to push the game into insane levels while retaining the diversity between number of different approaches that are up to the player's choice;
that makes the scene a lot more attached to the players we can look up to

The numbers are actually insane and could be regarded as one of the best in Twitch/gaming history ... player base vs exposure wise.

That 12k something on that picture is 6-7 times more than there were players playing at that moment and is as almost large as the whole player base more or less at that point.

The most popular games manage to engage the maximum of 1-2% of their player base to tune in for events, QC way over 60-70% this weekend. The International should have to have around 100 million Twitch viewers to be on the same bar with QC, and that is 100 million concurrent.
Dota 2 is free so let's take Playerunknown's Battlegrounds which had a tournament thingy at Gamescom ... a few hundred thousand twitch viewers but 8+ million copies sold, daed game?

Meh. 0.6 * 12'000 (that's a very optimistic estimate of the current playerbase) is still a way lower number than 0.05 * 30'000'000 (OW playerbase). Their priority should be to build a big playerbase by making a good game and marketing it well, and then they can start trying to get these players to watch. Marketing the game as an espurts title is destined to failure.

The same 6k people that tuned in despite not playing the game are the same 6k people that tuned into Quake Live despite not playing. I suspect those are old guys who've watched the big tourneys for years now, but don't play anymore, maybe some other "old" people chimed in because it's a new entry in the franchise and a much bigger tourney in terms of prize pool with all the old guard appearing, and then there's the occasional noob playing in the beta or seeing the game on the frontpage. id should realize that the only group whose number they can influence are the noobs playing the game. Since they can't possibly count on a big number of people chiming in who don't play the game (a one million dollar prizepool will not stop people from switching away after two minutes if they can't relate to what's happening on stream), the only way to increase the number of viewers is to increase the number of players.

lol yeah it's nicotine, not caffeine or other stimulant, nicotine is a useless drug for performace (or for anything really), but people who are addicted will keep taking it in order to avoid going into withdrawal symptoms, so I'm guessing it just keeps him feeling "normal", either way it looks trashy and disgusting but I'm sure Fazz doesn't care, he just made som sizeable money, it's still better than smoking I guess

they did a way better job at spectating sacrifice today
(switching to defendant PoV when capped, instead of short-lived attackers. nice static free cams with good angles on PU/souls pick ups and clusterfucks)
less frenetic, and thus enjoyable to watch. kudos to whoever in command

Half the time we get deathcam looking at a wall, sometimes switching between 3-4 dead guys in a row.

Every player switch has a 1 second screen freeze before you see the new POV.

Every time someone gets a soul or a powerup, we go from a static cam view to another death cam, or if we're lucky, spectating someone running around somewhere else. Half the soul runs we don't spectate neither the runner nor anyone chasing him.

And they still play on a PC that's incapable of rendering over 15 FPS of 720p (if you for some reason think this shameful framerate is a problem on your end, just wait for any slow-mo replay, which proves they're actually capturing it like that. if you think that may be a problem with capture interface, remember it captures just fine until enemies appear on screen / player enters new areas... clear rendering issue). I guess they were bound by partnership with AMD to use their GPU to render this game :D

Don't get me started on everything that obscures the view all the time. Zero4 and SyncError did a great job on those visibility improvements they promised on a AUA few months back ;)

But yeah, if it was 60 fps and if they had a) (working) follow killer b) follow pu/soul c) /spec fc/pu rquivalent (must be very hard to do), maybe it would be watchable.

Edit: OH! And of course the item timers that just blink all the fucking time instead of showing numbers (I think they blink every time a new obituary is displayed, which is every second in Sacrifice...)

Just wondering is there a lag switch in qc the same way com_maxfps 120 is the lag switch in ql. Clawz lg is hitting like a truck the same way lg hit like a truck when you play a player with com_maxfps 120 and hes playing with 250 fps.

Man that's what I was thinking too the first time when 2z didn't go to handshake notofast. Once is ok, mistakes happen, but twice in a row... This shows an immense lack of respect and his interviews didn't help his case.

We can go on about the excuses : bad english, young, whatever... but the evidence started to pile up.

Certain players (not only in quake) are able to shut down emotions almost completely during the game. It's clear Clawz is one of such players (while almost everyone else top quake players is not, especially Cypher and Cooller). And emotions don't just resume after the last match second. In such a mental state people don't feel any complex cultural emotions guiding to shake hands. Question is what happens when such players are not on the battleground and how they behave there.

Manners is not emotions.
Manners come from your childhood, they're engraved in your actions.
What happened was that Clawz was not emotionally empty, he was overflowed, and didn't care for anything else.

I was surprised too, but I now ask myself if some people on the side of the stage asked players to get to the trophy fast for images. When Clawz was standing still in front of the trophy, and Vo0 came closer (Clawz should have shaken his hand immediately though) Clawz just turned around and immidiately changed direction to get to the trophy.

This must be exactly what happenned. This boy is just all in himself and doesn't know well the conventional behavior patterns. Telling you this as a psychologist who I am. He'd never ever refused to shake vo0's (or anyone else's) hand if he knew that was smth expected to be done. It's as obvious as it is.

Yeah, but also keep in mind that the extreme surges of adrenaline and other overwhelming emotions of winning such lifetime sums of money (for them, atleast) could make them forget about manners for a minute or two.

I'm pretty sure this will change soon, as it was their first time win/big tourney.

Marketing wise this should be fully exploited, look millenials, theres a 19 years old that just won 175k by beating all the quake legends he found in this path, and with an amazing spectator friendly style.

+ seeing the outline of a fucking dinosaur sneaking around cracked me up every time
+ seeing all the big names battling it out again with big monies on the line
+ twitch allowing me to permanently hide chat
+ clawz <3
+ wheat, makaveli, ddk + zsx best duo in a LONG time
+ right amount of jehar
+ redeye was ok
+ sense of increased professionalism, right amount of production values, not too over the top or reminiscent of wubstep flishy flashy waste of money and neurons you see for other games these days
+ thankfully no stage presence by tim and the gang, no game-deciding stupid bugs that I was aware of, although it was hard to tell (the classic Quaker Syndrome where you actually end up being utterly thankful when id software manage to completely not fuck up a given thing)
+ cooller

o wasn't really engaged by the games or even able to pay much attention to whatever the fuck was supposed to be going on, just seeing who would win kept me watching tbh. still needed to spend most of the time watching it standing up lifting weights to make sure it didn't feel like a complete waste of time
o first day classic quakecon clownfiesta which fortunately I missed
o almost right amount of tosspot
o no bawls chuggin, not sure how I feel about that
o unprecedented amount of tiebreakers and close matches, but round based duel is still lmao regardless
o nice they chose q3 soundtrack but had THE SAME FUCKING SONG ON REPEAT
o promo vids, even with tim, were somewhat interesting... THE FIRST 11 TIMES

- only saw one single SG shot, pretty sure it was accidental
- strategy/positioning/importance aside, practically zero impressive frags, found myself reacting to the frags themselves maybe... twice?
- extremely hazardous and life-threatening stage design
- relatively pathetic amount of stream viewers
- same 3 champions over and over again, which apparently is cleverly disguised as "meta"
- 90% of frags are close range surprise parkinson LG battles
- close range rocket fights were visually impossible to figure out
- what the fuck did they do to my beloved ztn?
- terrible spectator hud
- dahang still not caring about his physical appearance
- rapha and cooller knocked out T_T
- sad stermy face :<
- melancholic noctis face :3
- no rapha commentary
- nowhere on screen showing overall map score
- zoot, blu, "ketchup and mustard", where the fuck do they find these people
- syncerror looking rather unhealthy in the promo vids
- sacrifice is a fucking unwatchable mess, basically just one long deathcam extravaganzza
- everyone going on and on and on about the fucking new blood vs old blood shit, yes we get it sheeeesh
- no stage ceremony with qcon girlz
- this isn't really quake is it?

Welp, I think that's my yearly dose of QC done with, was interesting, better than expected, curious what the gamemodes and config settings are (not) implemented in 12 month's time. Still not touching this for now, c u on #tdmpickup kek

+agents unholy commenting the shit out the qcon, the attendees, the commentators, you name it
+sac seemed almost okay when properly played and commented
+not everything was fucked up after the 1st day
+good numbers in twitch and steam streams - maybe we will see another qc majors after all
...
+and most of my bets nailed it :P
did almost 300$ in winnings, the most profitable qcon for me by far

For example, he kept calling cooller a "dinosaur who lives in a basement" (because cooller is older than most of the contesters, using sorlag and plays very passive, mostly sitting in the basement on Ruins).

He kept calling Ruins of Sarmath the Ruins of Saratov (thats a small old town in Russia). Thats funny as hell.

He kept calling clawz "Klaudia" - thats an old-school woman's name, the proper name for a some old school teacher, somehow it sounds hilarious.

When Clawz was fighting Voo, Agent said that after Klaudia's lg the last hairs will fall off from Voo, not just the ones from the head.

He kept insisting that Fazz has an unfair advantage over other players because of his glasses - "lupas" as he was calling them (its like "magnifying glasses"). And that Fazz has double zoom because of it.

Also he was constantly speaking about the boat for all CIS attendees who was eliminated from the tourney, meaning that they wont have a money to fly back and will have to swim through Pacific Ocean. "IN THE BOAT, BITCH!!!!" right after the losing frag.

There's a story of Agent going to Mediamarkt QC lan (which cooller won), where he met 102.Cooke (they have a really bad blood, mostly because of agent's bad mouthing the shit out of alex, kicking him from the servers and so on - without any good reasons at all).

Cooke met him there and asked the Agent to go out. So that they could talk and he could broke his nose)

And there are two different versions of the end of the story - Cooke says that the Agents left to avoid him and Agent's version is quite the opposite.

he is a kid that has every right to be mentally distracted after winning 100 years worth of belarus money . He has had this playstyle and behaviour for many years now, and because he won, he`s an ass ? grow up . He shoots and dont care, clawz style since forever.

Real easy to sit from home and look at the gif and say it was on purpose, but in his defense the kid is quite literally living the dream. Didn't you see his fucking reaction when he won? He didn't even know what to do next apart from stay seated and keep on breathing. Thx latrommi for CPR. At the moment of handshake his mind was no doubt still all over the place while instinct told him he better get the trophy, badly timed handshake I'd say. Exact same thing happened to me the other day when I won a cooking certificate in a room of about 20 people. A FUCKING COOKING CERTIFICATE.

Almost every single post-duel handshake I saw this QC was completely half hearted and absent minded on behalf of the victor, even from the veterans, as thousands of newly earned dollars and dreams of winning grand final are flowing through their minds. So imagine what's going through the mind of a 19yo kid who does actually win both grand finals with 180k suddenly in his pocket.

That's how I see it, but we don't actually know the kid so we'll never really know.

There is no way to know if he was looking at Vo0 here, his reaction is really really strange. If he wantd to go for the trophy first, why didn't he do it immediately ? To me, it seems he actually crosses the eyes of a staff man that asks him to go to the trophy, and it seems like he turns to Vo0 but is remembered that he must go for the trophy for images, etc.

Could be wrong though, but that's how I felt when I saw the clip live and now I watch it again I still think it's possible.

EDIT : Just look at how they used the clip of him going to grab the trophy on the Quake Champions official twitter...

Do any of you think Clawz was actually cheating? It honestly looked like a low FOV aimbot. Just wondering if anyone else got that impression. Not trying to take anything away from him. That was insane, but a lot of the decisions he made didn't make tactical sense, but he won them anyway simply due to raw aim. He played similarly to an aimbotter, so I am wondering if anyone got the same impression. We know now that people can put low fov aimbots on mice and cheat on LAN, so it wouldn't be impossible.

It's not that he was playing with a aim bot he just knew people couldn't hit him back. If you played ql you know that timenudge or com_maxfps 120 can you make you ghost like to some players depending on their settings. Its the same for Clawz he found the lag switch and was aggressive because he knew that people couldn't really hit him back the same way he does. There's a lot of situation where clawz should've died but the warp saved him. I have really good aim in ql and that's what i found out about the ql netcode. I play better with a video running on my second monitor because it fucks my fps up and makes me warpy to others. Sometime if a player hit me too much i just change my fps from 250 to 120 and suddenly i'm a ghost to him (or timenudge or 144 it depends on the server). I'm not a duel player so i don't know if the warp help as much in a mode where aim isn't as important but its a thing in CA for sure. Its a shame that nothing has been done about this. At least ID saw the problem with the maxpacket command (63 max packet and lg and rocket was godlike but people could rail you easily) but irc fps are still tied to the way your packet is sent to a server (or some shit like that) so there's a lot of way that you can fuck up your ability to get hit. I think it happened to everyone playing quake where there's a player you cant hit no matter what. Clawz found the switch. The same way Evil found the switch online. Even cypher was complaining about it.

yep, was thinking the same thing. i've personally never seen a quake pro with such a twitchy crosshair movement while being so accurate. tox, cypher, evil... most of the time they have smooth and natural looking aim. they often do small correction shakes, i do that as well, but those shakes don't stretch from one side of the hitbox to the other like with clawz, and they still look human. the only players i've seen with this crosshair behaviour are confirmed aimbotters.

and yes, cheating on lan has been done in csgo for example and is still going on. several pros have confirmed that the anti-cheat measures on lan aren't as good as people would think. there are multiple ways to do it, such as having the cheat inside the software/memory of the mouse like you said.

yeah, i know many players have extreme accel amounts such as k1llsen, but i still don't remember seeing his or anyone's aim behave like this. their aim still looked natural to me. i've heard clawz has plenty of accel too nowadays. oh well. i suppose it could be the game lagging or fucking up in some way like you say, which makes it look more aimbot-ish than it would look in quake live, although i didn't really see any freezes during that weird circle for example. but yes, the game freezes often overall and pretty much every time the moment you kill someone, really annoying.

if it's not an aimbot then it's something else with the game or something because i really doubt those weird twitches and anomalies are caused by him. i have a hard time imagining anyone would move their mouse in such a way.

Clawz isn't deserved to be QC winner personality. He showed us his bad manners and ignorance of english language. Yeb, he have amazing aim, especially lg and his is fast with Sorlag. I mean Sorlag is fucking OP rightnow. Its so boring watching him every match. And his fuckiing tactic that depends on waiting and whining when opponent studded for him.