Prismatic567 wrote:What is evil [empirically-based] is part and parcel of reality. Such evils must be addressed and resolved.

Why?

Why???

Yeah. Why?

Let's look at the moaning and groaning of an old wise man, King Solomon. He had seen everything, both the righteous and the wicked, man and woman, and he reached the conclusion that all is vanity, there is nothing new under the sun. Whether you live in mirth or misery, whether you are poor or wealthy, man or beast, you all end up the same way; and in any event, all of it was futile. You could get the impression that these are whimpers coming from an old grouch who can no longer enjoy life. That is, if you superficially skim over Ecclesiastes (for the new generation, that's a book in the Old Testament). However, if you take a deeper look, King Solomon, who is considered the wisest of men, reveals that, from an external point of view, everything has the same value, which is no value. This reminds me of what SHET said: that from the point of view of "Consciousness" there are no values, and thus we are no more valuable than a piece of discarded orange peel. Just as value is not in the object but in our way of relating to the object, neither is meaning or purpose in the object, but in our way of relating to the object. Whether the object is my ego, my life, or the universe, there is not even one gram of purpose to be found in it. However, I can choose to attribute meaning or purpose to something from my point of view and then, it has meaning and importance for me.

From that point of view, "Vanity of vanities, says Qohelet, vanity of vanities: all is vanity" (Ecclesiastes 1:2). And King Solomon goes on to describe the many vanities and the meaningless state of affairs throughout this book in the Bible. He begins with the description of cyclical scenes - reminiscent of the loop - taking place both in space and time. Then through the most beautiful poetic phrases with deep wisdom and many encoded secrets, he describes how fixed relations to substructures are meaningless, how clinging to wisdom, riches, honor, etc. is meaningless. Yet at the very end of the book, something exceptional happens: instead of pain and despair, King Solomon reveals his tremendous loving strength in few words, giving hope. This phrase is repeated twice in the original Hebrew Bible, the second time presented as follows:

"The end of the matter, when all is said and done:Be awed by God,and his commandmentskeep:for that isall what man is."[/i] (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

I took the liberty of translating the original Hebrew text as is, without the interpretation of the usual translation, which reads: "The end of the matter, when all is said and done: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for that is the whole duty of man." Fear is the translation of YIR'A (יראה), which actually means "Awe", not fear. YIR'A (יראה) comes from RE'E (ראה), which means "see." When one sees the manifestations of God, then he feels awe, which can also include some fear, yet fear is not the main "Significance" of awe. Interpreting the text with a focus on fear instead of on awe creates an entirely different connotation emanating from a worldview that pictures a humanized, angry and vengeful God who will punish you if you don't do what he says. YIR'A (יראה) means to be connected by seeing the exalted and the astounding, and by reacting to it with wonderment. This is the ineffable experience of merging the Immanent with the Transcendent, experiencing the inner language that is our essence.

Awe is Recognizing "Quality" in "Quantity", which is our Means to be Connected to God and thereby to all of Creation.

The Hebrew text does not say that the whole duty of man is to do God's commandments, but it states that doing God's commandments is what man is. There is a huge difference between these two: if that was man's duty, then man must be considered as something separate from God, and God - although more evolved - must be considered to be like a human - a humanized God. The inability to grasp an abstract God often ascribes human qualities to God, and even a human body. As Moses Ben Maimon (1135-1204), commonly referred to as Maimonides or RAMBAM, the leading Jewish philosopher of the Middle Ages put it in his "The Guide of the Perplexed":

"People think that the word TZELEM (image) in Hebrew refers to the outward shape and contours of a thing. This has been a cause of crass anthropomorphism because of the verse: Let us make man in Our image after Our likeness (Genesis 1:26). They think that God is the IMAGE of man, i.e. his shape and outline, and thus fall into unalloyed anthropomorphism, in which they firmly believe. It appears to them that by abandoning this belief they would deny Scripture, nay, the very existence of God would be called in question unless they imagine Him as a body with face and hands like themselves in shape and design, only - as they deem - bigger and brighter, and its substance not of flesh and blood. That is the highest degree of incorporeality they are prepared to grant to God... Since man is distinguished by a very remarkable function... because of this function, the divine intellect bestowed upon him, it is said of man that he is in the image and likeness of God, not because God is a body and therefore possesses a shape."

Prismatic wrote:Why???Do you want to condone or commit an empirical evil like genocide [it existence can be empirically verifiable and proven]?Do you condone empirical mass rapes, murders, and the likes?I don't condone nor promote the above evil acts, that is why humanity must address such and all evil acts then resolve them.

The sad thing is, I don't think you will recognize that these ancient ideas make your modern ideas look foolish.

I don't see how re what you have quoted can prevent genocides, mass rapes, murder and all sorts of evil in the future?

The above are categorized as empirical evil.The modern idea is; to prevent, reduce or eliminate empirical evil, one need to apply the appropriate modern Problem Solving Techniques.On of the essential feature of any Problem Solving Technigues is one must first define the problem.Thus we need to define what is empirical-evil.

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

Prismatic wrote:Why???Do you want to condone or commit an empirical evil like genocide [it existence can be empirically verifiable and proven]?Do you condone empirical mass rapes, murders, and the likes?I don't condone nor promote the above evil acts, that is why humanity must address such and all evil acts then resolve them.

The sad thing is, I don't think you will recognize that these ancient ideas make your modern ideas look foolish.

I don't see how re what you have quoted can prevent genocides, mass rapes, murder and all sorts of evil in the future?

The above are categorized as empirical evil.The modern idea is; to prevent, reduce or eliminate empirical evil, one need to apply the appropriate modern Problem Solving Techniques.

To force change, in other words. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." - Albert Einstein

On of the essential feature of any Problem Solving Technigues is one must first define the problem.Thus we need to define what is empirical-evil.

Why? "Just as value is not in the object but in our way of relating to the object, neither is meaning or purpose in the object, but in our way of relating to the object." The "evils" you describe reflect relationships, not empirical realities.

Prismatic wrote:Why???Do you want to condone or commit an empirical evil like genocide [it existence can be empirically verifiable and proven]?Do you condone empirical mass rapes, murders, and the likes?I don't condone nor promote the above evil acts, that is why humanity must address such and all evil acts then resolve them.

The sad thing is, I don't think you will recognize that these ancient ideas make your modern ideas look foolish.

I don't see how re what you have quoted can prevent genocides, mass rapes, murder and all sorts of evil in the future?

The above are categorized as empirical evil.The modern idea is; to prevent, reduce or eliminate empirical evil, one need to apply the appropriate modern Problem Solving Techniques.

To force change, in other words. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." - Albert Einstein

To some extent, especially problems that require a paradigm shift to resolve, I agree we cannot use the "same thinking" we used when we created the problem.Many a times we need to step of the of the box we are in to resolve a problem correctly and efficiently. e.g.

Drawing nine dots on a piece of paper and have a go with a pencil. Place your pencil somewhere, draw four straight lines without taking your pencil off the page. Each line must start where the last line finished.

I believe I have stepped out of the existing paradigm into a new paradigm in addressing the problem of empirical evil. Instead of looking for the root of evil externally, I am proposing a Copernican turn to understand and resolve the problem of empirical evil from our own internal self from the neural basis. This is a very novel approach.

In the other hand, the theists are stuck in the paradigm of theism on a psychological basis in looking at the problem from the major premise of an illusory non existing God. What follows from such a major premise will be an illusory and not effective solutions.Thus theists are stuck with Einstein's;".. solving problems with the same thinking they used when they created them."

On of the essential feature of any Problem Solving Techniques is one must first define the problem.Thus we need to define what is empirical-evil.

Why? "Just as value is not in the object but in our way of relating to the object, neither is meaning or purpose in the object, but in our way of relating to the object." The "evils" you describe reflect relationships, not empirical realities.

Not sure where you are heading with 'relationship'.Why are real problems like genocides, murder, rapes, and the likes not empirical realities?They literally have a negative value for humanity.To eliminate, prevent or reduce such negative values we have to address and resolve these empirical evils.

Are you implying we [humanity] should ignore these evil acts [empirical based], let them happen and disregard the sufferings of the victims of such evils?

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

Prismatic567 wrote:Not sure where you are heading with 'relationship'.Why are real problems like genocides, murder, rapes, and the likes not empirical realities?They literally have a negative value for humanity.To eliminate, prevent or reduce such negative values we have to address and resolve these empirical evils.

Are you implying we [humanity] should ignore these evil acts [empirical based], let them happen and disregard the sufferings of the victims of such evils?

Nothing of the kind! I'm saying we should recognize that the evils you mention are caused by a debauched relationship with the world. It's a spiritual matter, not an empirical one. If you appreciate Buddhism, certainly you can appreciate that.

Although one equates to the other - an issue of pursuing hope or avoiding threat (half full / half empty).

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

As an afterthought to my last post, it is no accident that the "forbidden fruit" is the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The problem is, ever since Adam took that first bite, people have been gorging themselves on that fruit ever since.

True and thus leading to the need of a Savior of Man, from his "sins" (misjudgments).

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

Prismatic567 wrote:Not sure where you are heading with 'relationship'.Why are real problems like genocides, murder, rapes, and the likes not empirical realities?They literally have a negative value for humanity.To eliminate, prevent or reduce such negative values we have to address and resolve these empirical evils.

Are you implying we [humanity] should ignore these evil acts [empirical based], let them happen and disregard the sufferings of the victims of such evils?

Nothing of the kind! I'm saying we should recognize that the evils you mention are caused by a debauched relationship with the world. It's a spiritual matter, not an empirical one. If you appreciate Buddhism, certainly you can appreciate that.

After spending so much time on Buddhism I dare claim to be a near-expert on Buddhism.

The Four Noble Truths [in that link] are;

1. The Noble Truth of the reality of Dukkha as part of conditioned existence. 2. The Noble Truth that Dukkha has a causal arising. 3. The Noble Truth of the end of Dukkha,4. The Noble Truth of the Path that leads to Awakening.

Dukkha can be gross or very subtle. From extreme physical and mental pain and torment to subtle inner conflicts and existential malaise.

One critical point to note is, Dukkha is very encompassing.From the above one will note Dukkha is self-induced or from external parties.

A Buddhist is also expected to be compassionate to others and help them to resolve the root causes of Dukkha. The empirical evils I described can generate Dukkha for oneself and others.Therefore a Buddhist has the duty to acknowledge the existence of such dukkha [first Noble Truth] and follow through to the 4th Noble Truth and then take the right view and right actions to deal with the respective dukkha, in this case the empirical evils. A Buddhist is not suppose to stare at events genocides, mass rapes, murders and all sorts of evil and do nothing.

Re "debauched relationship" is this;When humans are informed of or faced with the real threat of genocides, mass rapes, murders and the likes, it is obvious their emotions [anger, fear] will be triggered and thus generating Dukkha. In this case, with right view and right action [& other 8-Fold Path] need to be detached i.e. not entangled with these negative thoughts.

But the fact is, there is still real Dukkha [empirical evils] and the cause of it. For these one must have the right view and right action [& other 8-Fold Path] to deal with empirical evils which cause a various range of Dukkha.

To resolve overall Dukkha, one can break the problem into two categories, i.e.

1. Secular based evils - as evident2. Theistic based evils - as evident

On further investigation based on right view, right action, right mindfulness, one will note the root cause of theistic based evils are linked to a belief in a God [illusory] who had handed down a holy book which contain evil laden elements which inspires theists to commit terrible evils [empirical].

Applying the 4NT and 8FP one will note a belief in an illusory God is due to psychological factors, i.e. existential malaise. One will need to apply 4NT-8FP to resolve this existential malaise then there is no need for a God [illusory and impossible] and thus no theistic-based evils. Non-theistic-based evil will need to be resolved via the 4NT-8FP as well.

Note the process of enlightenment in the Ten Bulls, the final image represent enlightenment where the enlightened person engages with society yet there is no essence nor substance to the reality s/he is a part of.

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

Yet a belief in God has justified some of the most horrendous acts which is why none of you religious people can ever be taken seriously and as you embrace progressivism to become gods yourselves in the constant support of the status quo that only increases inequalities the things you claim to be against only multiplies. This thread is a rather interesting exercise of futility.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

Evil cannot be empirically demonstrated as it is a moral issue not a scientific one so evil acts cannot be effectively judged outside the morality of their time because it changes over time

A feature of religious fundamentalism is the apparent objectivity of morality but this is ironically a subjective interpretationMerely defining something as objective does not actually make it so and especially with such an abstract concept as morality

surreptitious75 wrote:Evil cannot be empirically demonstrated as it is a moral issue not a scientific one so evil acts cannot be effectively judged outside the morality of their time because it changes over time

A feature of religious fundamentalism is the apparent objectivity of morality but this is ironically a subjective interpretationMerely defining something as objective does not actually make it so and especially with such an abstract concept as morality

It's not just religious fundamentalists that does this as also government secularists proclaim the objectivity of morality within law.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

Law has to strive to be as objective as possible because it applies to all even though such objectivity is not so in practice. Because like the morality that it is based upon it is not absolute but constantly evolving over time. Even if there was such a thing as objective morality it would still be subjectively interpreted

surreptitious75 wrote:Law has to strive to be as objective as possible because it applies to all even though such objectivity is not so in practice. Because like the morality that it is based upon it is not absolute but constantly evolving over time. Even if there was such a thing as objective morality it would still be subjectively interpreted

I am saying that not only are objective moralities of God flawed but so is the objective moralities of government also. It is all hypocrisy in sync with the evolving greedy selfish pursuits of human beings themselves. It is a lot like having foxes guarding hen houses.

You would think a majority of people would learn this by now but astonishingly a majority do not.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

An imperfect system is better than no system at all and such fallibility should be accepted for imperfect is all that there can beSystems of government and human beings can of course improve over time but true objectivity for either can never be attained

surreptitious75 wrote:An imperfect system is better than no system at all and such fallibility should be accepted for imperfect is all that there can beSystems of government and human beings can of course improve over time but true objectivity for either can never be attained

An imperfect system is the same as no system at all. Yes, never attained, a delusional dream.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

surreptitious75 wrote:Evil cannot be empirically demonstrated as it is a moral issue not a scientific one so evil acts cannot be effectively judged outside the morality of their time because it changes over time]

Who said so?Your views are too loose in this case.

Evil is basically a moral issue but can be supported by scientific facts.If evil is imputed into morality, evil still have to be defined.

I have defined 'evil' in terms of evil acts.This definition of evil must be supported by a taxonomy of evils within a hierarchy of evilness.Obviously genocides has a higher degree of evilness than petty-crimes.

Evil acts that are supported by empirical evidence are the most credible.If we stumble upon 500 dead bodies, the best way to find out why is to rely on Science [forensic] to differentiate it is due to a biological epidemic, killed due to a genocide or other causes.

What is morally evil is determined by the highest level of reasoning which is independent of time and conditions. There is never good reasons why genocide can be good under any circumstance and time.

A feature of religious fundamentalism is the apparent objectivity of morality but this is ironically a subjective interpretationMerely defining something as objective does not actually make it so and especially with such an abstract concept as morality

The objectivity of religious fundamentalism in regard to morality is dependent on "God Said So" despite the fact that God is an impossibility. If God said circumstancial genocide is not immoral, then it is not evil! Note the genocides of the Yazidis by SOME Muslims upon sanction by Allah in the Quran.

Without any coercion and threat from a God in an immutable holy book, majority of humans in general will agree genocide is evil and abominable based on the principles of the Golden Rule.Btw, objectivity is intersubjectivity. i.e. rational intersubjective consensus and nothing else. Thus it is possible for human to reason out objective moral laws as guides not to be enforced.

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

surreptitious75 wrote:An imperfect system is better than no system at all and such fallibility should be accepted for imperfect is all that there can beSystems of government and human beings can of course improve over time but true objectivity for either can never be attained

An imperfect system is the same as no system at all

All systems are imperfect as they are devised by humans who are imperfect so it is an inevitable feature of themFor a system to be perfect would require that humans had absolutely no say in its conception or implementation

surreptitious75 wrote:An imperfect system is better than no system at all and such fallibility should be accepted for imperfect is all that there can beSystems of government and human beings can of course improve over time but true objectivity for either can never be attained

An imperfect system is the same as no system at all

All systems are imperfect as they are devised by humans who are imperfect so it is an inevitable feature of themFor a system to be perfect would require that humans had absolutely no say in its conception or implementation

and implemented by who else other than an absolutely perfect God!

The resultant is an empirically impossible perfect system by and empirically impossible perfect God.

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

surreptitious75 wrote:All systems are imperfect as they are devised by humans who are imperfect so it is an inevitable feature of themFor a system to be perfect would require that humans had absolutely no say in its conception or implementation

and implemented by who else other than an absolutely perfect GodThe result is an empirically impossible perfect system by an empirically impossible perfect God

I was thinking of machines that only think logically which would make them superior to humans

Zero_Sum wrote:Yet a belief in God has justified some of the most horrendous acts which is why none of you religious people can ever be taken seriously and as you embrace progressivism to become gods yourselves in the constant support of the status quo that only increases inequalities the things you claim to be against only multiplies. This thread is a rather interesting exercise of futility.

surreptitious75 wrote:An imperfect system is better than no system at all and such fallibility should be accepted for imperfect is all that there can beSystems of government and human beings can of course improve over time but true objectivity for either can never be attained

An imperfect system is the same as no system at all

All systems are imperfect as they are devised by humans who are imperfect so it is an inevitable feature of themFor a system to be perfect would require that humans had absolutely no say in its conception or implementation

If God is perfect from which ethics and morality derives from than they themselves should also be perfect for through religion they were handed down to humanity by God, but we know [we atheists] that God doesn't exist so we're left with humanity imperfectly creating morality or ethics for origins of both in terms of social values.

It's not just that humanity created morality and ethics imperfectly [standard hypocritical socially applied disclaimer/excusable convenient loophole of social irresponsibility] but rather what I believe both were created for ulterior duplicitous purposes other than deceptive public appearances [egalitarianism] that we're all led [social faith] to believe in. Once you understand all that morality and ethics becomes just another fiction like God that aren't necessary in explaining anything. Morality and ethics in terms of social value is just another game of acquiring control or power as none of it is genuinely sincere in its professed objectives.

In terms of morality and ethics there is nothing genuinely sincere of either in terms of social value or enhancement. Instead of sincerity there is only the camouflage of ulterior duplicitous motives in play for the basis of social control.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

Zero_Sum wrote:Yet a belief in God has justified some of the most horrendous acts which is why none of you religious people can ever be taken seriously and as you embrace progressivism to become gods yourselves in the constant support of the status quo that only increases inequalities the things you claim to be against only multiplies. This thread is a rather interesting exercise of futility.

Sad, but true.

Yet more recently, Secular belief has brought far more horrendous acts (100 million battle deaths since WW1). How many wars have been started in the past 100 years that had nothing to do with religion? All of them.

Religions don't start wars. Religions are used by war mongers who seek power. But recently religion is no longer necessary. Socialism accomplishes the same thing .. with no "god" belief involved, merely a lust to control all OTHER people (most often by Liberals as a ploy and aggression against Conservatives) in the effort to become "God" (people much like Prism).

So you can drop the BS about religions causing wars thousands of years ago.

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

Zero_Sum wrote:Yet a belief in God has justified some of the most horrendous acts which is why none of you religious people can ever be taken seriously and as you embrace progressivism to become gods yourselves in the constant support of the status quo that only increases inequalities the things you claim to be against only multiplies. This thread is a rather interesting exercise of futility.

Sad, but true.

Yet more recently, Secular belief has brought far more horrendous acts (100 million battle deaths since WW1). How many wars have been started in the past 100 years that had nothing to do with religion? All of them.

Religions don't start wars. Religions are used by war mongers who seek power. But recently religion is no longer necessary. Socialism accomplishes the same thing .. with no "god" belief involved, merely a lust to control all OTHER people (most often by Liberals as a ploy and aggression against Conservatives) in the effort to become "God" (people much like Prism).

So you can drop the BS about religions causing wars thousands of years ago.

My bad. The "sad but true" part was in reference to part about the thread being an exercise in futility. The anti-religion crowd isn't going to admit secularism's culpability, nor will they recognize that the recognition of "evil" logically demands a Summum Bonum against which it can be measured.