I was watching the home game vs the Warriors. My wife got the kids to fall asleep and joined me in the basement for the second half. A few minutes pass and Al drains a three. She cheered ( supporting former Pacers is accepted in our household). I didn't think anything of it until she started to get pissed that they gave the points to the Warriors. Imagine her confusion, similar colors, Jackson, Al & Crosh.

This is a person who lives with a die-hard. She'll was still confused. That's one of the major problems I see with fan disinterest. They don't know who the players are anymore. This is something I continually brought up in various threads about attendance, fan interest etc...It's also a reason I'm somewhat inclined to support standing pat with the current roster and build with free agents and draft picks. People seem to be more interested in players they've known for awhile than even a superstar that's relatively new. Thoughts?

Mr.ThunderMakeR

01-18-2008, 03:25 PM

What relatively new superstar do we have?

Dr. Goldfoot

01-18-2008, 03:27 PM

That was hypothetical. Superstar was an overstatement I guess. I was thinking if you asked the average person in Indiana if they'd rather have Mike Bibby or Fred Jones you'd be surprised by the answer.

CableKC

01-18-2008, 03:38 PM

A few minutes pass and Al drains a three. She cheered ( supporting former Pacers is accepted in our household). I didn't think anything of it until she started to get pissed that they gave the points to the Warriors. Imagine her confusion, similar colors, Jackson, Al & Crosh.

This is a person who lives with a die-hard. She'll was still confused. That's one of the major problems I see with fan disinterest. They don't know who the players are anymore. This is something I continually brought up in various threads about attendance, fan interest etc...It's also a reason I'm somewhat inclined to support standing pat with the current roster and build with free agents and draft picks. People seem to be more interested in players they've known for awhile than even a superstar that's relatively new. Thoughts?
I can see your point in "standing pat", but I'm also concerned about holding on to players FOR WAYYYYY TOO LONG in hopes that they can turn things around and/or increase their trade value.

If the opportunity to move Tinsley and / or JONeal presents itself for players that make sense and don't kill the team from a Salary POV for the next 2 seasons between now and the start of the 2008 Training camp, then I am all for moving them.

Otherwise, we will likely "stand pat"....only because we have no choice.

Unclebuck

01-18-2008, 03:46 PM

Good point, I hear all the time "I don't even know who the players are anymore" Of course I find that impossible to believe.

Edit: but the only way for players to become known is for the team to win, because unless the team wins, no one will watch.

Most casual fans, know who JO is, they certainly know who Tinsley is - and no, none of them have any idea that he was having an excellent season. Beyond those two, they really aren't sure who the other guys are. Except, oh yeah, Foster - didn't realize he was still on the team. But our female fans probably would say, who is that cute little point guard - he looks like he should be a kid trying to date our teenage daughter.

Kofi

01-18-2008, 03:48 PM

I can't agree with you at all. I think it all comes down to winning and losing. Us "hardcore" fans will watch/discuss the team regardless, but the vast majority are only seriously interested in the team when they're relevant (winning). Superstars help bring in W's, help make teams relevant via the additional TV exposure, and are almost always more exciting to watch perform than non-superstars.

Dr. Goldfoot

01-18-2008, 04:03 PM

Good point, I hear all the time "I don't even know who the players are anymore" Of course I find that impossible to believe

Of course we do but then again most of us know the rosters for the d-leagues. I just consider continuity more than just somewhat important. This team has seen major overhauls to the roster in the last three seasons.

Players who've borrowed the blue and gold uniform since '04-'05. (either weren't part of the 61 team or are no longer with us since then)

I lived in Chicago during the post-jordan dark years and none of those players were well known either.

Even the TV sports guys were calling the team "the Terri-Bulls".

If the Pacers make one or preferably two playoff appearances, the leaders will begin to become known.

Mr. Pink

01-18-2008, 04:30 PM

I went to the game with my Parents, brother and two friends. My mom and brother were bragging about how they stick with the P's no matter what. We get seated and players are warming up and my mom asks, "Where's Rick at?"

uh... "Are you freaking serious!?"

"What? where is he?"

I don't know the point of telling this but...no one knows anything about the Pacers anymore!

Putnam

01-18-2008, 04:32 PM

I agree with Peck.

avoidingtheclowns

01-18-2008, 04:35 PM

Good point, I hear all the time "I don't even know who the players are anymore" Of course I find that impossible to believe.

especially considering how many have their pictures hanging in indianapolis post offices.

I lived in Chicago during the post-jordan dark years and none of those players were well known either.

Even the TV sports guys were calling the team "the Terri-Bulls".

If the Pacers make one or preferably two playoff appearances, the leaders will begin to become known.
But then that's the chicken and the egg isn't it. When the leaders/star emerge, the team will make a solid playoff effort (ie, not just squeaking into a sub-500 4 and done situation).

Ultimately you just have to work on the team aspect and let the fans find their way to it.

You know the Star had a nice stat that picked up my spirits. It showed how many times the team had been farther below .500 at this point or beyond and still made the playoffs. Each time was at least 40 wins even IIRC. So I start thinking "sure, I guess it could happen, it's looked worse."

But for the purpose of this thread I always have harped that the Reggie teams had low attendence too until the ECF runs. Well 3-4 of those "way below 500" comeback seasons were those early Reggie teams. So when you think about it, even though they had good players and a good overall product, the terrible starts hurt early fan interest and curbed later fan interest with a sense of hesitation on how legit their winning was.

This team needs to get over 500 and maintain it for a few months. Not big, but at least enough to become normal news. Then a decent showing in the playoffs, at least by key players if not the full team. Then a decent addition or two and a solid above 500 start next season.

At that point you probably would start to build some interest and identity in the minds of the casual fan. I don't think you have to stand pat to do it, but you do need to keep and market 3-4 key guys. At this point you assume Dun, Danny, JO and perhaps Jeff, but really it's just going to be whoever gets the job done.

Unclebuck

01-18-2008, 04:51 PM

The Pacers had an unusually stable roster from 1994 through 2000 - I think fans got used to the same players being here year, after year, after year, after year, after year.

NuffSaid

01-18-2008, 04:54 PM

The big issue here is marketing OUTSIDE of Pacerland. Winning will gain the Pacers a portion of those advertising dollars, i.e., nationally televised games (TNT, ESPN, ABC) vice local/cablevision (FSN-IN/MidWest/NBA-LP). That's the biggest problem with the lack of real exposure for this franchise.

Would it help to get a marque player? Yes! But in a small market area I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening. I mean, it took a player, ala Reggie Miller, to "make" himself a superstar and defy the odds in the biggest sports arena in the US - NYC against the Knicks - before this franchise ever truly got on the map. What will it take to get this team back in the spotlight of the NBA world (besides night club incidents, drug issues and all out slug fests)? IMO, two things:

1) WINNING ball games particularly against big named teams/players; and,

2) someone on the roster truly making a name for himself by playing the game the right way. I think Dunleavy, Granger and Deiner all stand the best chance of doing that.

Bottom line: Get on the winning side of ball games, stay out of the negative spot light, and then you'll get some of that national TV exposure, and before you know it everyone will know the name of somebody on this team....kinda like Cheers, huh? :laugh:

Dr. Goldfoot

01-18-2008, 05:11 PM

Chicago and Indianapolis are two completely different cities. Chicago manages to support 5 major league teams (Bears, Blackhawks, Bulls, Cubs, White Sox). This city scrapes to support two teams. blah blah blah

I think a pro team in Indianapolis has to approach things in a different way and a major part of that is familiarity. Right now it seems like we have a bunch of guests over. On the other hand, I'll always stand by winning creates an environment where the games become events. That draws people who wouldn't care otherwise and they create a fictional bond with certain players. So I guess you still need one to have the other.

Of course we do but then again most of us know the rosters for the d-leagues. I just consider continuity more than just somewhat important. This team has seen major overhauls to the roster in the last three seasons.

Players who've borrowed the blue and gold uniform since '04-'05. (either weren't part of the 61 team or are no longer with us since then)

When I looked at the list I thought there's not to many players on that list that would really help the team now that we would want back. James Jones for sure, except we don't have time for all our swingmen now.

Cro would help more than Harrison. Anthony Johnson would probably be a better backup, but I don't think we would want him back.

I didn't consider Reggie, he's retired. Peja is always injured.

Dr. Goldfoot

01-18-2008, 05:16 PM

Right. The point was just to show the number of players who've come and gone in the last three seasons ( some of them more important or better than others).

grace

01-18-2008, 07:06 PM

Good point, I hear all the time "I don't even know who the players are anymore" Of course I find that impossible to believe.

Maybe I'm just losing my mind but when I went to list the players I knew on the team I only came up with JO, Jamaal, and Jeff before I had to go to Pacers.com to look at the roster.

As for the downfall of the Pacers in the eyes of the general public for those of you who get thoroughly offended when people say "The Pacers are nothing but a bunch of thugs" you'll be glad to know that last night at work a woman I work with said "It's not just the Pacers. The whole NBA is nothing but a bunch of thugs." She told me to come up with one player that hadn't had problems. I was going to say Austin Croshere, but then I remembered a story I heard about him so I gave up.

NuffSaid

01-18-2008, 07:22 PM

Dr. GoldFoot,

You got a BC powder? Reading that list gave me a headache. :laugh:

I hadn't realized so many players have come and gone since then. WOW!

Granted, some were just on the pre-season roster, but that's one long list for a small market team in just 3-4 yrs!!

Remarkable! :eek:

LG33

01-18-2008, 08:08 PM

The Pacers had an unusually stable roster from 1994 through 2000 - I think fans got used to the same players being here year, after year, after year, after year, after year.

Well, they'll get much of the same with the Pacers' own Troy Murphy until 2011!

Bball

01-18-2008, 09:50 PM

Maybe I'm just losing my mind but when I went to list the players I knew on the team I only came up with JO, Jamaal, and Jeff before I had to go to Pacers.com to look at the roster.

As for the downfall of the Pacers in the eyes of the general public for those of you who get thoroughly offended when people say "The Pacers are nothing but a bunch of thugs" you'll be glad to know that last night at work a woman I work with said "It's not just the Pacers. The whole NBA is nothing but a bunch of thugs." She told me to come up with one player that hadn't had problems. I was going to say Austin Croshere, but then I remembered a story I heard about him so I gave up.

So the Pacers are giving the whole NBA a bad name.... :rimshot:

-Bball

Dr. Goldfoot

01-19-2008, 02:45 AM

Dr. GoldFoot,

Granted, some were just on the pre-season roster, but that's one long list for a small market team in just 3-4 yrs!!

Remarkable! :eek:

No. Those are just players that actually made the team and played during the regular season. I wasn't gonna included guys that didn't really make the team but....just to add some more confusion(all players associated with the Pacers since Zeke was fired)

That's 37 real players to come and go and 60 if you count everybody and probably even a few more names could be added there if you wanna count coaches etc....

JayRedd

01-19-2008, 03:22 AM

Omar Cook

Doing St. John's proud since 2000.

PaceBalls

01-19-2008, 03:44 AM

I was watching the home game vs the Warriors. My wife got the kids to fall asleep and joined me in the basement for the second half. A few minutes pass and Al drains a three. She cheered ( supporting former Pacers is accepted in our household). I didn't think anything of it until she started to get pissed that they gave the points to the Warriors. Imagine her confusion, similar colors, Jackson, Al & Crosh.

This is a person who lives with a die-hard. She'll was still confused. That's one of the major problems I see with fan disinterest. They don't know who the players are anymore. This is something I continually brought up in various threads about attendance, fan interest etc...It's also a reason I'm somewhat inclined to support standing pat with the current roster and build with free agents and draft picks. People seem to be more interested in players they've known for awhile than even a superstar that's relatively new. Thoughts?

You are right about the average fan, or person in attendance at Conseco. They aren't as knowledgable about basketball or the players. I think, we as die hards here at PD, have a bit of disconnect with the average fan and what our expectations are and what theirs are. We know, or try to know, about every off court issue, all the behinds the scenes attitudes and disputes, the players strengths and weaknesses, and are very interested in the whole operation of the NBA and the Pacers franchise.

I think the average fan just wants to see the Pacers win games. I've said it before but winning will draw people to the fieldhouse regardless of whether or not the players frequent strip clubs or not.

So yeah people recognize JO and come to see him play expecting to see quality basketball. I think most of the time they leave dissapointed, and less likely to want to return again. They might recognize Tinsley, but he was never on the national stage like JO.

I do think bringing in a household name (that would play consistantly good basketball) would help draw the casual fans more, say someone like Gilbert Arenas, but winning games will do even more to bring more fans to the games than any superstar would.

Dr. Goldfoot

01-19-2008, 04:01 AM

Something I forgot to add is Jamaal Tinsley, Jermaine O'Neal, Jeff Foster and David Harrison are the only constant players in that time span. Given their track records ( injuries mostly) over the last few seasons, it's entirely possible to tune into a game and not be familiar with any players that get into the game.

BlueNGold

01-19-2008, 10:00 AM

I would prefer to "stand pat" if the team was a contender.

That gets to the reason we had a stable roster in the 90's. We had a stable roster because it was a good team that was getting better. Sure, Vern Fleming was a staple for awhile, but pre-Reggie, the team had its share of turnover.

The truth is, standing pat will lead to a long period of mediocrity. In fact, standing pat is what we did over the summer...and we are still in no man's land between the playoffs and the draft picks. That will likely continue until some of our contracts expire and the team heads in one direction or the other. Thankfully, there will be some forced moves in the near future...

aceace

01-19-2008, 10:11 AM

I live down in Bedford and when the Pacers winning they were always a front page sports section story. Now its page 2 or 3 and the story is smaller. Winning is truly everything. Some guy named Reggie was hitting some big shots back then.

grace

01-19-2008, 02:48 PM

So the Pacers are giving the whole NBA a bad name.... :rimshot:

-Bball

Yes, they are. Here's a prime example. I couldn't believe that there wasn't a reference to the Pacers. Something like "JamesOn Curry, who would have been a Pacer had the Pacers owned a draft pick..."

Bulls rookie JamesOn Curry was arrested for public urination and resisting arrest in Boise, Idaho.

Curry, 22, plays with the Iowa Energy of the National Basketball Development League.

Both charges are misdemeanors.

Curry also was arrested on marijuana charges while in high school.

Bball

01-19-2008, 03:37 PM

I live down in Bedford and when the Pacers winning they were always a front page sports section story. Now its page 2 or 3 and the story is smaller. Winning is truly everything. Some guy named Reggie was hitting some big shots back then.

They made the front page of the Bedford Sports section the other night after the Phoenix game when one of the columnists wrote about them. I think the column was entitled:
"Hey Jamaal, I'm Open" (or something similar).

EDIT: Article found and posted below. I may steal that "Tinsley Triangle" line!

BEDFORD — I don’t often agree with Bob Knight and his antics or biting comments. While I accept that he’s one of the greatest ever at preparing a basketball team, and obviously at preparing young men to enter the world beyond college, I don’t accept his bully tactics.

It’s just a philosophical difference, and I’m fairly certain he’ll never be able to sleep again down there in Texas if hears about it.

But I do agree with Coach Knight on one thing, and I was reminded of it once more Wednesday night when a powerful fit of insomnia left me little viewing choice except the Indiana Pacers-Phoenix Suns NBA game.

Knight once said, and I paraphrase, that he’d rather watch mice mate on a fuzzy screen than watch and NBA basketball game. Amen, coach, and it was confirmed as the Pacers and Suns dueled down the stretch.

Indiana, mired in a bad slump, had worked its way to a double-digit lead against the powerful Suns, who own the best record in the Western Conference and have an amazing array of athletes.

Of course, a double-digit lead in the NBA is about as safe as fresh-baked pie at a Weight Watchers convention; about as safe as a peace accord in the Middle East; about as safe as a twin-engine prop plane over the Bermuda Triangle.

Get the picture? Any of them can disappear in seconds. But the Pacers left no mystery how they blew their lead. They did it (with) horrifying basketball. Down the stretch in the fourth quarter, when thoughts might’ve turned to trying to protect that lead, Indiana chucked up 13 shots and 11 of them were 3-pointers.

The Pacers missed five of them in a row in the waning moments and Phoenix rallied to tie it and send it to overtime. That’s when I witnessed what may go down as the worst point-guard play in history. Jamaal Tinsley, who missed a couple of those threes at the end of regulation, decided he’d try to win the game all by himself.

He took the inbound pass time after time and it was as if the basketball had entered the Bermuda Triangle. It went into Tinsley and never returned. The veteran from New York City took every single Indiana shot during the overtime except for a tip-in of one of his misses by Mike Dunleavy. This is a point guard, whose job is to direct the offense, penetrate, and dish. I have no problem with a point guard shooting now and then, but not every trip down the floor. Tinsley shot on 14 consecutive possessions counting the last two minutes of regulation and overtime, and he isn’t even a very good shooter. But he shot every one of them, and he missed and he missed and he missed and he missed.

It was almost mystical, and it was almost comical, though I’m not sure his teammates were laughing. In any case, the Pacers predictably blew the lead and lost the game, and it was abominable basketball.

All I can say is, beware the Tinsley Triangle. If your basketball gets sucked in there it will never come back.