This is rattle off the top of your brain thread-right?Well dig this.This world-and most dumb f**kers in it-believe-and kill-because of a belief in GOD. Why? Because my imaginary friend is bigger than yours. f**k religion. It's the cause of most wars-take your god and stick it up your ass.

f**k GOD-are you serious-do you really believe some being controls the universe? Even comic books try to come up with better logic. Religion is a good thing-if you use it as a philosophy. Use it as politics-which most dumb f**ks do-it's worthless.

RC, religion is human-created, therefore it is flawed and bears the imprint of human beings with all our faults. Good, too, comes out of religion and it’s simplistic to deny that. I would have to say on a localized scale religion often does more good than bad, but there is no denying wars and cruelties have accompanied religion, though gazing only at these things is an exercise in shutting your eyes to the good that is also there. We tend to see the bad, while the other hemisphere of it all goes on unheralded in acts of kindness that may only have played out with religion to give them genesis. If religion has destroyed then religion has also produced art and music and charity, healing of the body and spirit and mind, it has been the catalyst for the preservation of knowledge that might otherwise have been lost, and it has transformed thieves and tyrants, giving these brutes access to what is better within their own selves.

And that’s only the humanistic side of it all, the parts we can see, leaving out any claims of an afterlife.

Look deeper, beyond religious expression and dogma, and you see the thing that religion feebly tries to point at, which is something higher that I do believe most all of us all feel.

I say we most all feel it because something that inspires so much wonder and also sees so much energy invested even in railing against it is the thing that humans seem to feel is innately of supreme importance. (Saying “there is no God, there is no God, there is no God” is also putting a lot of time into something that is not there, so why does someone who disbelieves bother to do that?)

The uncreated creator, the first object, the thing that has no precedent and no beginning is what science and philosophers agree upon, it is a thing that needs to be there unless the universe and time wrap in on themselves like a giant Mobius strip: which perhaps they do.

Because the human mind is chauvinistic, we tend to see this uncreated creator in terms familiar to us, assigning it form like that of our own, perhaps correctly (maybe we were created in this being’s image, an image which preceded us but does not belong exclusively to us) or maybe we are simply trying to visualize this force and impose ourselves onto it, thinking it is as we are.

Personally I think if there is a God then that force/being/? is so much greater than us that we cannot begin to understand it. This is a force that set order amid chaos, that created quasars and black holes and mathematics and time itself, it created the tiniest atom and the broadest expanse of this and a likely infinite number of universes into being. Nature left alone cannot create a Stonehenge, something humble humans engineered five millennia ago, so how could chaos, even given an immensity of time, create the miracle of the mammalian eye, the neutrino, the force of gravity? It would seem nature unguided would, firstly, not exist, secondly create nothing but limitless void. Nothing cannot arise from nothing. 0+0 will always equal 0 no matter how many times you ram it through a calculator.

To extend that thinking farther, if humankind arose from something other than nothing, then humankind arose with an intent behind its existence, a plan, perhaps, and while there is a certain unassailable mystery as to why we are here, is it not just possible that in a universe which just maybe did not create itself, the creator would care enough about its creation to set some guideposts down among it, instilling a sense of conscience amid the survival of the fittest directives of rude nature?

And if this is taken as a given or even a possibility, then is it not likely that the tales of the creator deigning to communicate with we lowly creation, the stories preserved within religion, may just make some sense? Honestly, which would make a better person, the teachings of Jesus or the brutality of a God-less adherence to natural selection, which sees virtue in cruel self-ism? To dismiss all that lies in religion because people have mangled its goodness is a short-sighted prejudice that shows anything but intellectual sophistication. I would much rather dwell thinking “it could be true” than to shut my mind and say “NO!”

I used to hang out (kind of an accurate description) at an old Jesuit church downtown and the priests there lived vows of poverty, they had nothing, did not even own the clothes they wore, yet these men ran a soup kitchen that served three meals a day, and they worked more hours running this charity operation than most of us do paying for the items we own. What compels them to live that way? A belief that their God told them they should. Without religion a lot of people downtown, who depended on that soup kitchen, would have gone hungry.

I can also tell you what sages of all nations throughout time tried to tell you, which is the more you open yourself up to listening for the mysterious voice of what lies beyond you, the more readily you will hear it. Something is there, I am convinced of that, something that is not just my imagination babbling back at me. It is not a placebo, it is a force that guides and comforts and is, via our instinct, just as much a valid part of who we are as its twin, logic.

As I said, religion is man-made, I agree, it is an effort to tribalize, it does divide at times (often) I again agree, but does the flawed combative nature of our species that taints religion utterly rule out all possibility that something beyond us exists within and amid and around us, and that all religion is an effort to seek that out, know it, placate it and gain its friendship?

I don’t think it does.

PS I know, RC, like I've told you, that even when you are brutal you always speak from your heart and you always speak honestly, and I respect that. You're original in a world of dullards. Most everyone here is that way, if you notice, they're unique and atypical. Maybe that's a big part of the reason I've hung around here for ten years. This is an interesting group of people.

I can accept the idea of a god who created the world but doesn't really care about it. I can equally accept the idea of a god (or indeed gods, goddesses) who have weaknesses and aren't all powerful. But looking at the world I find it impossible to believe there is a god out there who is infinitely powerful and equally merciful who loves us all.

A conversation I had with someone a while back where I was asked if I didn't want eternal life and all that jazz. To be honest I have a lot of bad memories I have no wish to spend an eternity remembering.

Equally however, if someone else wishes to believe in a god different to how I see things I am not only quite happy to let them, I would also fight for their right to have such.

Just as long as your not trying to force me to share your beliefs.

Logged

Having listened to your problems, I have decided I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in?

This thread has turned into a "religious/personal belief/thoughts on god and existence" thingy. Interesting. Ill probably ramble on and on, so endulge me because I will digress.

Well, damn, Im not sure what I believe, as far as God is concerned. Ill try and articulate something, but if you ask me tomorrow, Ill tell you something different. First off, I have a lot of issues with religion. I subscribe to the George Carlin school of thought that religion is BS. The institution of religion more specifically. Yeah, a lot of wars and violence. A lot of crazy people doing a lot of crazy things. Crusades and cleansings. Blowing up little girls at concerts. All horrible and unnecessary acts. Anything that is organized or instituted is, or can be corrupted because thats the nature of humans. It usually comes down to control in some way or another. It seems like most of us agree on that much. As ER stated, there is good that comes from religion. Some people actually do good and kind things because of their religious beliefs. Faith is also important to people, even people who arent religious have some kind of faith.

Now that religion is out of the way, its time to speak of God. Well, do I belive in God? I dont know. For me its not an easy or simple answer. I struggle with it. In some ways, no. I dont believe in an invisible man in the sky, Not the santa clause depiction. Ive tried many times to have this conversation with people. you know, like a real intellectual discussion. An honest one. But at some point, a look of discomfort or even terror washes over their face. Its a real uncomfortable thing. Religion is in our DNA. We used to sacrifice children so crops would grow. Studies show that people litteraly get high on God, The opiate of the masses. Damn, I have to go. Ill try to continue this train of thought. It may take several posts. To be continued....

continued - Ok, since the "stream" has been indefinately shut off and were on this God trip, or maybe Im the only one on this trip, the cogs in my brain have been turning, trying to think of a way to state my thoughts on God in a coherent way. Ultimately I will probably say a lot of psuedo-philosophical crap that amounts to nothing. I cant state things as eloquently as ER and I have some personal issues that are in line with the way RC said it. Im trying to stay on the subject of God without getting into the religious aspect of it, but as Im writing this, Im realising that my religious experience has been a formative part of my "understanding" of God. Not that I understand any of it. Im not really tring to bash religion but I think Im going to have to vent a little.

Ive been somewhere between atheism and agnosticism for some time. Early on in life I was secretly atheistic. Many things just logically didnt work for me as far as believing in god, the judeo christian god that is. Even as a child, I had some understanding that a system or dogma in life was some sort of man made control. I was aware of some of the history of religions and the suffering they caused. I knew that people who referenced a book (ie the bible) like it was an instruction manual were being intellectually lazy. The stories didnt make sense to me. Ive spent a lot of time in a lot of different churches, never really bonding with the people and never feeling quite right about the situation. Something in my gut just didnt agree. The stories, the hymns, the people who were into it just didnt seem right, in fact, it scared me. They scared me.

It just seemed so morbid. It felt the same as a funeral. The naked man nailed to a cross hanging on the wall. Yes, hes got nails in his hands and hes bleeding. Hes suffering, because of me. Its my fault that I was born and this guy loves me so much he was willing to be nailed to a cross and suffer an agonizing death. Oh, and his father loved him so much, that he allowed it to happen. Because of me. Which brings us to the guilt part of it. You catholics know what Im talking about. Guilt.

Next comes the fear. Simply by being born, one is a sinner. Theres no way around it. Were all sinners. I thought that I was a nice guy, but nope. Im a sinner, and sinners go to hell. He loves me so much that I could be sent to a place of fire and brimestone to burn in agony for an eternity. Really feeling the love, eh. Maybe, if I beg, confess, repent, give a little donation, or say 10000 hail marys, I will be spared this horrible punishment. Maybe if I try and be like jesus. Its impossible mind you, but if I try really hard and come to church every sunday, I wont be sent to hell. No pressure.

continued - Ok, since the "stream" has been indefinately shut off and were on this God trip, or maybe Im the only one on this trip, the cogs in my brain have been turning, trying to think of a way to state my thoughts on God in a coherent way. Ultimately I will probably say a lot of psuedo-philosophical crap that amounts to nothing. I cant state things as eloquently as ER and I have some personal issues that are in line with the way RC said it. Im trying to stay on the subject of God without getting into the religious aspect of it, but as Im writing this, Im realising that my religious experience has been a formative part of my "understanding" of God. Not that I understand any of it. Im not really tring to bash religion but I think Im going to have to vent a little.

Ive been somewhere between atheism and agnosticism for some time. Early on in life I was secretly atheistic. Many things just logically didnt work for me as far as believing in god, the judeo christian god that is. Even as a child, I had some understanding that a system or dogma in life was some sort of man made control. I was aware of some of the history of religions and the suffering they caused. I knew that people who referenced a book (ie the bible) like it was an instruction manual were being intellectually lazy. The stories didnt make sense to me. Ive spent a lot of time in a lot of different churches, never really bonding with the people and never feeling quite right about the situation. Something in my gut just didnt agree. The stories, the hymns, the people who were into it just didnt seem right, in fact, it scared me. They scared me.

It just seemed so morbid. It felt the same as a funeral. The naked man nailed to a cross hanging on the wall. Yes, hes got nails in his hands and hes bleeding. Hes suffering, because of me. Its my fault that I was born and this guy loves me so much he was willing to be nailed to a cross and suffer an agonizing death. Oh, and his father loved him so much, that he allowed it to happen. Because of me. Which brings us to the guilt part of it. You catholics know what Im talking about. Guilt.

Next comes the fear. Simply by being born, one is a sinner. Theres no way around it. Were all sinners. I thought that I was a nice guy, but nope. Im a sinner, and sinners go to hell. He loves me so much that I could be sent to a place of fire and brimestone to burn in agony for an eternity. Really feeling the love, eh. Maybe, if I beg, confess, repent, give a little donation, or say 10000 hail marys, I will be spared this horrible punishment. Maybe if I try and be like jesus. Its impossible mind you, but if I try really hard and come to church every sunday, I wont be sent to hell. No pressure.

..to b continued.

Interesting.

Guilt over failure, the unavoidable nature of personal wrongdoing labeled sin, forgiveness withheld, the province of a select few to dispense said forgiveness, the Catholic Church sets people up for a cycle like addiction and a fix, doesn't it? (In a way it bothers me that my oldest daughter seems so drawn to it.)

A recurring funeral, nails in feet, arrows in chests, Hellfire, you said it. You want to see morbid Christianity, go into an old Irish church untouched by the questionable iconclasm of Vatican II, lol, so, yeah, I get where you're coming from, I really do. Fear of death is something I used to say was behind the original creation of religion. (Islam's beginnings I truly think were about one megalomaniac's grab for earthly power but it's the exception.)

I think one oft-overlooked HORRIFYING possibility to it all is yes, perhaps the universe has a creator, but why does that necessarily translate out to humans living on after death? That's a possibility few people seem to throw out there, either theists or their alleged opposite. I don't subscribe to it, but I do ponder it.

I am married to someone who takes on a sort of third path to it all that is neither belief nor disbelief, but comes down to utter apathy. He genuinely has no apparent interest in the question of God's reality or God's non-existence. None. Zero. He could not care less. So little does he invest himself in the idea of God that he had no problem with not going to a church service of any kind for ten years, or of now sitting in every Sunday with our two younger children, mostly to please his mother. He can be there ninety minutes, walk out and not be able to tell you one thing that was talked about in the service because it bounced off him.

Since my lifelong preoccupation is with God, what is, what is to come, what has been, I have at times envied the peace he has in simply not caring, but I could never replicate that, and even during my years of agnosticism I remained in a near-constant state of wondering about it all. So my mind....spirit....soul was fertile ground when the day came I had my own (self-serving) eureka moment.

Ultimately two things focused me and pointed me where I am today, and interestingly one of those was fear, the thing I mentioned up above. My younger self would have been angry with the older me for letting fear be a catalyst for a transformation. She'd have said don't let fear overshadow logic, which tells us no one can know with the existing data whether God exists.

To her credit she once faced death and did not run to God like a scared rabbit, but dammit I was fifteen then not thirty-one, her incident was sudden, mine left me a long time to contemplate the horror of looking at what I thought was near-certain death in 2010, let's see anyone's mind not be focused under that shadow.

So the first thing that changed me from an agnostic to what I am today was base fear, but the other thing was not faith, I have little faith, it was that I was shown by a longtime friend that evidence does exist for belief: and I consider belief an altogether different thing from faith.

I believe in God today, a God who took human form as Jesus, not because the idea tremendously appeals to me (sorry), but because I accept it seems the most likely explanation, and if I carried one thing away from my background in biology it is that facts should not be disregarded just because they are unwelcome.

I think Jesus lived, died, returned and worked miracles as the Bible says, no matter how at odds accepting this has placed me with some people I knew in the days when many of the ideas of science ruled my brain. (Today I recognize a lot of scientists are egotistical, close-minded jerks but I didn't always get that then.) From this point of acceptance the next logical step is to say if the account of Jesus is true then the things Jesus spoke of about living beyond physical death are true as well.

Frankly it makes for a happier life than my notion of life ending in nothingness. "Be seeing you, Grandma" even if only a delusion, is much more positive than, "life's a b***h, and then you die.<----------"

I find these topics disheartening, and a good response can take a lot of time, so forgive me for the short post. I tried writing something up yesterday, but I feel it would retread ground I touched on years ago.

Here's an interesting HuffPost article: Is Religion the Cause of Most Wars? I can't agree with every point made, but the author does do a good job arguing that most wars do not have a religious cause.

That organized religion could be corrupted and used to control people, but without some organization religion would have no earthly purpose. You couldn't run a soup kitchen or a charity drive without some sort of structure. Organizations where the human leadership is a group chosen by election or lot might be better than organizations led by a single man or woman.

Christ's death is rather grim, but His resurrection is cool. Since this is a movie site:

Tonight I went to an event that marked the twentieth year of sobriety for my friend's father, whom I've actually known longer than I've known her, and I couldn't count how many people came up to him and told him what an inspiration in the midst of their own struggles they found his accomplishment in turning his life around, showing it is possible, that it can be done.

Tonight demonstrated to me it is always possible to re-invent yourself at any point, even your lowest, and in so doing you never know who else you might help by example, even beyond yourself or your family.

I must say not only was I proud of the man, I was distinctly humbled, especially when he gave the chip he got to his daughter, put it into her hand and curled her fingers around it, and I saw how she looked at it and him, knowing she has so often told me that growing up she accepted that he would likely not be there this far into the future, and now he is.

To be honest, although this post is not supposed to be about me, there have been times in the past when I had tremendous anger toward this man, misplaced, justified...I don't know, it doesn't matter anymore, but there does come a time when someone is simply not the person he used to be, and this man has long since achieved that rebirth....he is a good man today as he tried to be even at his lowest, I love him for who he is and I vow I will always give him full credit for his accomplishments, come what may.

There are some moments that realign one's thinking, and tonight was almost spiritual in the most profound sense of the word. It was purifying. I almost feel like crying, which is so weird.

We've all wondered why it is ghosts are seen wearing clothes, when logically it'd seem ghosts would be naked, right? Old topic. So to take that further, it might seem clothes have spirits and can enjoy an afterlife. Obviously, right? I mean they're always on ghosts, QED they survive death. So to take it one step farther STILL, why do clothes need humans attached to them to be a ghost? Why can't clothes themselves haunt locations? Hmm? Think about it. Remember that pair of jeans you threw away eleventh grade because they got bleach spilled on them? They might be floating around in the ethyr, watching, waiting, making random appearances and scaring onlookers. I bet it's only a matter of time till someone encounters a full non-bodied apparition of an old dead shirt or a single sock that met a tragic end. (And we won’t even talk haunted condoms!!) It's only logical, after all. I truly think this is the next great field of paranormal research just waiting to happen!”

Fame is so short. When I was growing up Marge Schott was a name I heard all the time around the city, yet today an intern, twenty-two years old, high GPA, had never heard of her despite growing up locally her entire life, and I thought for a moment about the late Marge Schott, who once was frequently on TV with some really funny car commercials involving her prized Saint Bernards. For those who don't know, she owned several major car dealerships, and she bought the Cincinnati Reds during one of the lowest points in that venerable club's history.

She was a character, sometimes an embarrassment, but definitely an original.

She was also an early victim of the intolerant PC culture strangulating America today.

Mrs. Schott was a loud, chain-smoking, foul-mouthed, plain spoken anachronism of a tough old German-America woman who also happened to have a heart of gold, was kind, generous to the point of the absurd, and who looked out for her employees in ways you just don't see anymore. Everything she got she got honestly and frequently after having to fight hard for it. When her husband passed on in the 1950s, Marge Schott was left his dealership, but in the age of Eisenhower Detroit's powers that be did not want a woman running an automobile dealership and tried to force her out. Instead she dug in, spent years fighting it out, and ultimately won, becoming the sole female proprietor of a car dealership in the United States for many years to come. What's more she took one car lot and expanded it into an automotive empire the likes of which the Midwest still has not seen surpassed.

It was and yet was not easy to like Marge Schott. She used language that would've made a sailor blush, defied every No Smoking sign she ever saw, and gave orders with all the grace of a drill sergeant. She also hired minorities long before desegregation, promoted women, and paid everyone the same decent wages whatever their color. People tended to hire on and stay with her for life because she was frequently generous and always fair. She knew the people who worked for her, knew their families, knew if their kids were sick, or if their parents had just died. For forty years there wasn't a church festival or large charity event in town that didn't get financial backing from Schott Buick. One year she paid for every school in the inner city to send its kids to the zoo for a field trip. She'd read the newspapers and if a hard luck story was there, she'd say to her right-hand man, "Can we do anything for them?"

Usually she could and did.

My grandpa knew her and lived not far from her and had his "Marge" stories to tell. He said, "She uses the eff-word so much even I feel shocked." Through him I met her a few times and she was nice to me, as she always was to kids, I sure didn't hear her cuss, and growing up in the time I did she was just sort of always out there, on TV, on the news, in the papers, a household name, just something....that had always been.

At least until about the time I was in high school, then it was like....not just outsiders beyond the city but locals turned on this icon. Yeah, okay, she used language that perhaps was acceptable in her heyday but wasn't anymore. Yes, she still retained WWII-era jargon for our nation's one-time enemies. Maybe she said something downright rude about how much she was paying one of her star players, and flippantly mentioned his ethnicity in words that by the 1990s were inflammatory. Yeah, she did all that, but you know what, she was also an old woman by then, not in the best of health or (some say) the sharpest state of mind, and because of things she'd said mostly in private, she was ridiculed, penalized, ultimately forced to sell the baseball team she'd all-but rescued a decade before.

Then all that, this attack on language, was slightly shocking, that the words of someone speaking freely in private could be used to trash that person in public felt somehow new. Now it goes on so often people are used to it.

So due to her verbal blatherings Marge lost her team and had to sell most of her dealerships, a lot of her longtime employees were put of work, families suffered and things changed, all because people far out of the range of ever hearing it found her language insensitive. Words are air, actions are deeds, which was worse, a wobbly-minded old lady saying "dirty Japs" or crusaders shutting down workplaces?

She died in 2004 and based on the intern's comment may be mostly unknown to the younger generation, and it's a shame she is, because her life could teach a lot of lessons....good lessons and lessons that are cautionary tales. Marge may have been rough around the edges but she wasn't a conformist. May she rest in peace.

-continued. I have to finish this thought. It should have been a separate thread but I hesitated to start one because it would open a can of worms. by worms, Im referring to the worms in my brain because I obsess sometimes.

Well, Ive touced on fear and guilt, those 2 things seem to be fundamental in most peoples perception of religion. Sometimes I wonder if people actually believe or if theyre afraid not to be believe. A big part of my understanding of religion was trying to be honest with myself and I still dont know if I am, is it even possible? Most of my religious experience has been negative. Mix that with a messed up child hood, some messed up people and bad situations. Voila! Youve got yourself a skewed outlook.

For all the negativity Ive mentioned, there is a lot of good as well. Miracles do happen. Ive had many close calls and have been saved by some "grace". Ive gotten past the F god phase from when I was younger and angrier, mostly. Ive since grown to be more accepting and realized the beauty in life. I think having children has had a hand in this. Children change people.

I think ultimately, religion is about communion. Connecting to something greater. Who can say if its an all knowing conciousness with good intentions. Maybe god is beyond good and evil. Maybe were just hairless monkeys created by an alien race, just to see what happens. Maybe in the end, nothing matters, maybe theres nothing but a black void, but a black void would be something wouldnt it? Even nothing is something.

So there, Im gonna try and stop there because I cant figure out how to express my views on god. Im somewhere between atheism, agnosticism and some other philosophical mumbo jumbo. I could have said that in the begining but I thought that I could hammer this out in a single post. This thread now returns to a stream of conciousness.

Whoa Whoa WHOA! Kakihara-I know i was your nemisis with the political thing-but I am gaining more respect for you as far as the religion thing goes. Yeah,this thread,it was supposed to be about one thing and morphed into another. I think That's how religion started. Christ-who was the Superstar of his day-they didn't have TV or sports or rock stars-they had they're own superstars. But the populartity of Christ has nothing to do with my atheism. The pure science of it does. It's nonsense. It's stupid. But that isn't the REAL reason I HATE rleigion. I hate it because it's usually used for political power,for war,for persecution of folks who don't think like you. Religion is a bigoted concept which can breed hate. f**k god and f**k religion.A cult morphed into a religion that caused war. Almost all wars-are because of f**king religion. f**k THAT.

PS. Kakihara-I know you think I'm some bleeding heart liberal-far from it. I Just don't trust millionaires who inherit money but no brains,and a twisted history (called the bible) because we can't figure out how s**t works. People who have nothing grab at what they want to hear. Thats the whole point of politics and religion. Has nothing to do with common sense. Brother-I think you know what I'm saying.

What I said above says why I hate organized religion. I din't say why I don't believe in GOD.I'll tell you now. I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus or vampires or the f**king Easter Bunny or the f**king spaghetti monster. It's just stupid.

Oh f**king christ on a cross-that song almost made me puke in my own mouth! If I had a choice-I would take Tom T. f**king Hall into a wet damp room and connect a car battery to his nipples and dick and make him f**k a duck.

RC, you know I love you, but I could not disagree more.Wars are fought for resources, wealth, land, and pride. Then people wrap those things up in the language of faith to feel better about it.There are some purely religious wars, but they are not as common as most people think.

My Dad spent sixty years as a minister. He performed over a thousand weddings and twelve hundred funerals; he visited people in the hospital every week, he counseled troubled teens, saved marriages in crisis, and challenged people to be better, kinder, and more loving.Far more "religious" people do things like that than go out and start wars or fan the flames of hatred. It's just that folks like my Dad never make the news.My faith makes me a better, kinder, and more decent person. That is not why I believe, though. I simply believe because after years of research and reading, I have come to believe the stories in the Gospel about Jesus are true.If they are true, then He was the Son of God.If that is who He was, then I believe in Him.

Indy-it sounds like your Dad was a kind man. I won't EVER knock a man's religious beliefs. My brother Mike is very religious-and he also has a kind heart. When I was a little kid I lived for a short time in a Catholic orphanage and Sister Nina was the sweetest lady I ever met. She would wake me up at nite when all the other kids were sleeping and let me watch NIGHT GALLERY in her room-because she knew I liked scary movies (I was 7).Does that change my opinion of religion. Not at all.I may argue politics-but I won't touch religion. I was stating what I believe-and would never push it onto others.It's not the basic philosophy of religion I object to. It's the science of it- which I just can't wrap my head around-and the misuse of it by power hungry despots and liars that twist it into something evil.