Leica introduces new features and enhancements to five cameras in mass firmware release

Leica has released new firmware for five of its camera models, making significant changes to the way existing features operate while also adding totally new functions in some cases. The updates effect the M10 rangefinder, the Q compact and the new CL, as well as the TL2 and the T/TL.

The highlights of the update include allowing four minute exposure times in the M10 at base ISO, and the addition of aperture value recording in the camera’s EXIF data – even though it will be an estimate. Q users get a favourites menu that can hold up to 15 items for especially quick access, and the ability to determine that the electronic shutter should be constantly on. They will also welcome faster processing of the camera’s DNG Raw files.

The CL now offers users the option to transfer the functions of the two main dials between each other, and for those who find themselves accidentally pressing buttons on the small body a new lock feature deactivates access points to keep them from being unintentionally altered.

Control over the shutter mode comes to the TL so users can choose when to shoot with the electronic or mechanical shutter, and the firmware brings focus peaking to users of the M adapter and to those using R lenses on this little camera. The T and TL bodies get better chromatic aberration correction and support for the Elmarit-TL 18mm F2.8 ASPH lens.

The firmware is available to download now, or you can take your camera to a Leica store and have someone do the job for you. For more detail see the listing from Leica below, or visit the Leica website.

Press Information

Extensive updates for Leica Cameras: New firmware releases with numerous improvements and entirely new functions.

Leica Camera AG has released a series of extensive firmware updates for the Leica M10, Leica Q, Leica CL, Leica TL2 and Leica T/TL camera models. Alongside further improvements of existing features, these updates also introduce a considerable number of new camera functions.

Leica M10 (v2.4.5.0)

Optimisation of the delete menu: The graphic user interface for the deletion of pictures has been revised.

Longer exposure times: Exposure times of up to four minutes are now possible at base ISO.

New continuous shooting mode with lower frame rate: An additional continuous shooting mode is now available (Continuous Low Speed, three frames per second).

‘Load profile’ is now available in the favourites menu.

Aperture value in EXIF data: The camera compares the brightness measured through the lens with the measured ambient brightness to estimate the aperture used. This value is then written to the EXIF data. In some cases, the interpretation of the subject or scene may lead to incorrect estimation of the aperture value, for instance when shooting subjects or scenes with high contrast and black or white objects.

LED deactivation: The red LED on the back of the camera can now be deactivated in the control elements menu.

Auto-ISO setting: Auto-ISO for base ISO is set to the default value of ISO 200 to optimise dynamic range.

Leica Q (v3.0)

Favourites Menu: Users can now enter and save up to 15 settings for faster access in a Favourites Menu.

Power Saving Mode: If required, the camera can now be set to switch to Stand-By Mode after 10 seconds.

Extended functions for the Fn button: Even more options can now be selected for programming the multi-function button.

User Profiles: Profiles can now be imported from and exported to a memory card.

EVF/LCD setting options: This menu item can now be assigned to the Fn button.

Settings for the electronic shutter: The electronic shutter can now be set to permanently active.

DNG files: The processing speed of DNG files in the camera has been increased.

Autofocus fields: The last AF field used is now memorised and recalled when switching the camera off and on again.

Self-timer: The setting is now memorised and recalled when switching the camera off and on again.

Exposure preview deactivation option: Exposure preview can now be deactivated in manual mode (especially useful when shooting in the studio with flash systems, underexposed settings or in dark environments).

Image review: Automatic image review remains active as long as the shutter release button is pressed.

Leica CL (v2.0)

Programming of setting dial functions: The programming of the two setting dials can now be swapped from one to the other.

Power Saving Mode: If required, the camera can now be set to switch to Stand-By Mode after 10 seconds.

Touchscreen autofocus: The AF metering points can now also be shifted with the joystick control in Touch AF mode when using the electronic viewfinder.

Leica TL2 (v1.4)

Selection of LCD / viewfinder settings: It is now possible to select when and where the content is displayed (up until now, display was simultaneous).

Customisable left function menu: The items of the left function menu can now be customised by the assignment of up to six of a total of thirteen functions.

Extended functions for the Fn button: Now, one of a total of six different functions can be assigned to the Fn button.

Settings for the electronic shutter: The electronic shutter can be deactivated, permanently activated or set to complement the mechanical shutter.

Focus Peaking in AF Mode: Manual focus corrections can now be applied in AF Mode with the MF-ring. In the meantime, Focus Peaking is available from FW 1.4.

Focus Peaking with M-/R-Lenses: Focus Peaking is now also available when using M- R-Lenses with the M-Adapter L.

Exposure correction during video recording: The left-hand setting dial can now be used to apply exposure correction during video recording.

Zoom-in when reviewing images in the EVF: The right-hand setting dial allows users to zoom in while viewing images in the EVF.

Leica T/TL (v1.8/v2.3)

Simpler connection between the camera and a smartphone by app

Reduction of chromatic aberration for all TL-Lenses

Support and auto-update for the Elmarit-TL 18 mm f/2.8 ASPH.

The firmware updates are available from the Leica website (https://www.leica-camera.com). Users can either download and install the update themselves or have it installed within the scope of the free update service offered in all Leica Stores.

It's depressing reading a lot of the comments here. You're too poor to own a Leica. You only buy Leica to show off your wealth. I've got more money than you. Etc. Etc. There is even a comment somewhere below implying small genitalia if you don't have a Leica. I thought the whole Sony v. Canikon thing was nasty at times, but Leica seems to bring out a new low in people. Buy a Leica if you can justify the cost and it suits your style of photography. Don't if it you can't and it doesn't. Why waste time foaming at the mouth on a forum about it?

You are completely correct. In addition, the argument people write also are partially wrong, since there is no awareness about production and production history.

You can ask a simple question: how long to you need to work to buy a Leica earning an average income? That has not changed in the last 50 years: depending on US or EU and your favored statistic 1.5-2.5 month. The relative cost of a Leica remains the same, since the major driving factor are the salaries of the workers in the EU (Germany, Portugal)

Only our willingness to work ourselves for a camera has change. Thats true from many products. In Germany, we had to work 1- 1 1/2 months for a TV or a washing machine in the 1960s. How long do we have to work today? We take advantage of cheap labor in Asia to reduce our hours working for any camera.

People complaining about "an expensive" Leica should ask themselves whether they are personally willing to work for the same hourly rate as Asian workers?

To be clear, since you don't understand, firmware updates to camera bodies fix problems (generally) and add features.

It is arrogance on your part to assume, even humorously, that people only buy Leicas for show or for valuation.

Then since you're generally unclear on digital photo gear: the resale price of used digital bodies almost always goes down after being purchased new. Very highend lens resale prices don't go down. While some of these lenses in Leica's case are purely analog, so no firmware.to up date within M lenses.

To be clear, since you don't understand, firmware updates to camera bodies fix problems (generally) and add features.

It is arrogance on your part to assume, even humorously, that people only buy Leicas for show or for valuation.

Then since you're generally unclear on digital photo gear: the resale price of used digital bodies almost always goes down after being purchased new. Very highend lens resale prices don't go down. While some of these lenses in Leica's case are purely analog, so no firmware.to up date within M lenses.

I suppose getting worried about these things is also not a healthy thing.The transition point where considering getting a Leica is a sensible option is probably a great deal higher than poor when considering wealth levels.

@sop51 and @kodachromeguy: You'll find that those who are addicted to forums, and exhibit such behaviours are quite pathological.

Certainly, the internet is addictive, and addiction disorder is already recognised.

Without having researched the topic, my initial thoughts with regard to a focus on particular subjects, such as film, or camera systems, pertains to the fact that we (as a society) have created a construct within which we closely associate our personal value with objects and possessions; and indeed, there is the field of neuromarketing that is closely related to this.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say briefly (and failing, as it needs pages), is that while these are complex and nuanced questions, that go well beyond individual psychology, to the overarching sociological construct, and our adaption to that construct, you guys are onto something.

We, as a society, and as individuals within that society, are not well.

Most of the people here (on DPR) can afford a Leica. We are not talking about luxurious car or house.For some people, their love for Leica is all about the craft and the special use of a rangefinder and they have no need to argue with the Leica haters.I feel sad for you for bringing such argument.

Yes it was the Digilux 3. I had both the Panasonic L1 and the Leica version back on the day. They should kept doing those collaborations with m43 beyond the LX100 and the Q🤔. If they do it with the lenses why not on the bodies.

"They should kept doing those collaborations with m43 beyond the LX100 and the Q🤔"

There's no Panasonic version of the Q. You know this already, but more importantly: Nor does the Q have a 4/3s sensor. M4/3 is a mount type. So the LX100 is sort of 4/3s camera--no m involved. Examples of m4/3s cameras: the Panasonic G9 or the Olympus EM1 II. True, Leica has no m4/3s camera.

Aperture value in EXIF set by comparing exposure to ambient -- great idea! I'd love to see this in all cameras when using manual, uncoupled, lenses. Of course, it'll be approximate because the best you could hope for is a T value, but still....

Leica went with an optical, rather then electronic, connection. Turns out, that was a bad call in that it can't expand to transmit other data... but for decades it has meant you needed nothing more than a bit of paint to code a lens.

In any case, Leica has lots of old lenses that wouldn't have any new coding....

Not directly, now Trump's various economic policies may very well increase the purchasing power of the euro in US dollars, akin to the invasion of Iraq causing a massive decline in the value of the dollar against the euro, so that would lead to a price increase for good made in Europe sold in the USA.

The greatest economic and military power the world has ever seen is the US, no doubt about that. And Trump is taking advantage of it, which seems perfectly rreasonable from the US point of view. However, there is a problem: Debt. The greatest military of them all costs a lot of cash, but doesn't return any. So it has to be seen how the non-military conflict between US and its foes goes on and how we pay for that.

Cornu, "The greatest economic and military power the world has ever seen is the US". Please read one or two history books. Damn, Egypt, Persia, India, Mongolia, China, Greece, Rome, Spain, Britain.... were all greater (more extensive) than the US. Hegemonies rise, and then fall; and so history plays out....

Politics for the win! Politics politics politics! Camera review forums! Nope! Politics! Show your side as much as possible in unrelated threads. When questioned, double down, evidencing that your red herring has everything to do with an announcement about firmware, new lenses, lightroom, or colour wheels.

probably the boss fancies the latest Porsche. Why not increase it, they just spent money increasing the quality with that much better firmware. Keeps the 2nd hand market price nice and healthy also - just in case you are selling!

I always enjoy comments for Leica.I equally like both, those of haters, so to speak, and those of lovers because in most cases are comments of fanatic people. The few comments which don't follow this pattern simply justify the rule...

@HowaboutRaw "Like several posters here, clearly Leica makes you insecure. Why not just leave it alone if you're not interested in Leica gear?"

Okay first of all I would love to know how a company can make me insecure that is quite an odd statement as it is a name and that is all. Secondly I AM interested in Leica gear but I am NOT interested in rebranded gear. I am however interested in the Leica Q & Leica M series.

Leica lenses are special but its cameras are not so, including many problems with viewfinders.In film time I would choose Bessa or Zeiss Ikon over Leica any time. In digital era Leica is not worth the price.

The good news is that there will be no bottlenecks on their site trying to get these firmware updates. Let’s be honest folks. Who really buys these overpriced Leica cameras!!Stick to lenses Leica. Thanks.

I believe Leica has a share of 1-2% of the global camera market, which means that they sell at least a couple hundred thousand units a year. Not comparable to the big players, but we're talking about a niche player, so that's not surprising.

In their latest financial report they listed revenue of 144m Euro for ILCs and 86m Euro for 'compact cameras'. If we assume an average income of $3000 from ILCs and $1500 from compact cameras, that converts into about 100'000 units. It's hard to guess the product mix and distribution and retail margin (though some those two stay within Leica by them being their own distributor in case of the Leica stores their own retail channel).

TL2 still has no ability to work with external flashes and AF worse than almost any camera on the market. Better AF than T though. Those should be the first go-to firmware updates (somehow externally-the-same CL focuses faster and it does work with external flashes... like any other >$500 camera)

It's not what I meant. The LCD shows you exposure as you have it set. I.e. if you're in the studio, you set your camera to let's say ISO 100, f/8, 1/160s. That way you see PURE BLACK on your LCD and are unable to use your camera. It's easily fixed in software. Almost every other camera on the market has it. But not this one.

It is, these are my exact 2 points since the release of CL. But to phrase it more carefully - TL2 still has no ability to work with external flashes, especially when you want flashes to be your only light source or main light.

No. - Not ONLY but MAIN. - Not hot shoe mounted but any FLASH light. - Not necessarily indoors. - And not without a window light letting in - the less window light letting in, the less usable TL gets.

TL will take external flash. 1st party, 3rd party, whatever you want. But it won't be fully capable in doing it like other cameras (CL or probably almost any single APS-C/FF mirrorless/DSLR camera on the market, especially in $1000+ price range)

If you own a TL/TL2, go to photography studio with it and have some "fun". Or try to use some flashes at night in your home. Or try to make available light your fill light and flash your main. I think this discussion is useless at this point :) My point is: TL/TL2 lacks ONE option, purely software based, to make this whole discussion (and lack of capabilities to i.e. use it in photography studio) go away.

No Howabout, you don't need a $19,995 camera (body only) to shoot in a studio. Any $500+ one will do*. And I assure you great studio works happen in this price range ;)

* - If we're strict on words, of course not any. Not TL. Edit. And it's a shame. Because it's a camera with a great sensor and wonderful lenses. Which is heavily handicapped via lack of one easy to implement software option.

Nice talking, I feel we all shared what we wanted, it's probably better to go out and take some pictures instead. With flash or without.

I find it hilarious all the people whinging about price. The Leica Q is a camera with no real direct competitor. The RX1 is the closest thing, and is frankly terrible in comparison. Any ILC camera with a similar sensor, lens (not that one exists) and VF isn't far off price wise, and for many that extra is easily worth it for the ergonomic benefits alone. Brand doesn't even remotely come into it.

If you don't want or can't afford one that's grand, but taking the time to mock and belittle those who find the camera to be good value is nothing more than an odd mix between pathetic and funny.

That would be all well and grand, if it wasn't for the fact the a) they're not what's mentioned in this article, and b) they only sell for a fairly minor markup, which is largely covered by the better warranty and software.

Oh, and plenty of Leica bashers (no not you) go out of their way to post fact free bashing of the Q, the SL, the CL, the TL2 the T, the M, and new Leica lenses.10 days ago, and the new SL wide zoom, is a good example of Leica lens bashing.

If Leica would sell the M10 for half of its price, it would compete well with current Sony MLC models especially with A7 III. People would jump ship to Leica if the sensor came with a higher resolution, too. Since neither such price decrease nor a better sensor resolution is realistic for Leica rangefinder and MLC models, Sony is the only decent alternative at the moment (maybe with sensor cover modification).

Leica will never be a direct competitor to Sony, and I don't think they need to be or should ever try to be tbh.

My comment about the RX1 is largely regarding the ergonomics and usability. It can certainly produce beautiful images, and is the smallest package able to do it. If the trade-offs are worth it for you that's grand, but to me it just feels to unfinished and wonky to ever consider, especially with the Q around. About it's only clear advantage to me is the size.

Leica and Sony already compete - many Leica users added Sony MLC cameras to existing Leica cameras. AF plays only a minor role for reasons to add Sony MLC just looking at comments in brand-specific forums. Main reasons are higher resolution/better sensor performance, lower price. However, a big segment for Leica relies on collectors - here I agree, they don't care about Sony cameras. But actual users - yes, they compare and many use both brands in parallel now (often with the same lenses).

You specified an exact Sony line that competes with the M. AF can be massively important; it makes the A7 a very different camera. Now if you'd said the SL and A7 compete then you'd have a point. Same with the Q and RX1RII.

And no in actuality, M mount lenses, which aren't by any means all by Leica, don't work especially well on A7 or A9 bodies.

@HowaboutRAW: Let me first make clear that I am not addicted to any kind of brand - I use several brands in parallel. I currently use six M-mount lenses very successfully on my A7R without having any kind of issues. Only for very wide lenses the Kolari glass cover modification is recommended. So Leica/Zeiss/Voigtlander M mount lenses work very well on Sony bodies with few exemptions (for example the f/2 ASPH lenses don't work well on Sony high res sensors).

AF is likely not important for Leica rangefinder users. I see Leica M AND SL users both add Sony A7 or A9 camera series (depending on personal preference in shooting). So certainly M versus A7 bodies but also SL versus A7/A9.

I use Leica M for film only and Sony A7R for digital with the same set of lenses. Best of both worlds!

" I use several brands in parallel. I currently use six M-mount lenses very successfully on my A7R without having any kind of issues. "

If they are 50mm and longer, while not especially fast, you'll not note big problems.

"M mount lenses work very well on Sony bodies with few exemptions (for example the f/2 ASPH lenses don't work well on Sony high res sensors)."

I doubt that's the case for all f/2.0 ASPH Leica Ms.

"AF is likely not important for Leica rangefinder users."

Never said, or implied, it is.

"Sony A7R for digital with the same set of lenses. Best of both worlds!"

No it isn't for reasons I already explained. Now, your results may be good enough for your purposes, but that's not what you can get out of the same lens using a Leica M body, SL body, or yes the Ricoh A12 module. Then of course the Mark 1 Sony A7R only shoots lossy raws, so another drawback.

@HowaboutRAW: The problems start at 21 mm and shorter but your statement is simply false. The CV 21/1.8 delivers excellent images on my A7R with adapter without PP needed. Please be careful what you copy from the internet without trying yourself.

Leica f/1.4 (Summilux) ASPH lenses work flawlessly also on Sony MLCs. But not the shorter f/2 ASPH lenses - especially not the 35/2 ASPH lens (above 50 mm they might be fine, never tried them).

I never cared if my shots are lossless RAWs or not. Never seen an issue with my files. In very special situations you see an issue regarding reviews about this but so far I never had them happen to me (using the A7R since 4 years).

Q is the best purchase camera wise I ever made. I never even had hands-on with one (or any other Leica I just lumped on the cash (I was wondering if I would regret) and it arrived by UPS and I opened her up and never looked back.

The Q is not a rebadged Panasonic camera. And even if Panasonic is involved in some capacity, as a component supplier perhaps, Leica is still the company that's selling the product. So why would you ask Panasonic?

I think the price of the LeicaQ m2 will be based on the equivalent provided by its main competitor, the Sony A7Rm3 with 28mm lens assuming that Leica can upgrade the sensor and processor. (A little +or- depending on what Leica thinks is the value of its bling factor. But I think Leica owners are tired of being thought of as just rich and stupid - the Trump factor. ) The $4-5,000 range could make it very competitive making it once again the working tool that forged its original reputation.

You seem confused by the difference between "uses Panasonic technology" and "was designed by/with Panasonic".

No one, well there is one in these comments, disputes for a second that Leica CL's uses a Sony sensor. No one disputes that Leica uses Fujitsu processors--most digital camera companies do. No one disputes that the Leica SL uses a Panasonic developed AF system, but it's not a Panasonic camera.

Yes, I'm sure there's some Panasonic tech in the Q; it has good AF for a contrast detect system. But it's hardly a rebadged Panasonic.

What do any of these digital cameras from Leica have to do with a car like a Morgan? The MP is not on the list--that's the closest Leica to a Morgan analogy.

Now why isn't the MP on the list? Oh right.

Calling Leica simply, or even just, a luxury brand as you have is kind of being arrogant about digital photography. 4 of these 5 are feature rich well modern digital bodies, and the 5th is a very good digital body designed to take Leica's (and other's) more film oriented lenses.

#howaboutraw a leica M it just like a Morgan, I have both. It has a ford engine, Mazda gearbox taking parts from around the world in a handmade British shell and frame, just like Leica does with its cameras, both have a heavy waiting list and keep the prices spiralling up while retaining enthusiastic owners, I wish more people could enjoy them

Funny fact: Leica invented modern AF. They didn’t implement any of it until the Q and SL in their own full size cameras and sold the technology to Minolta. But yeah, Leica don’t know AF, or so the ignorant comments go.

@shigzeoSo what did you mean with "They didn’t implement any of it until the Q and SL in their own full size cameras."? Did you use the term 'full size cameras' to refer to 'FF/35mm' cameras, ie, expressing your regret that none of the FF cameras/systems got AF until after they had AF in MF and APS-C cameras?

I meant that their FF systems didn’t have it until recently but had actually forgot about the S. I’m glad you brought that up. Too many people do. I’m proof of that. Leica have been doing AF for a long time. And they invented the first system that went to market.

The only other digital rangefinder was from Epson. Cosina’s Ikon and Bessa were pretty incredible modern options to Leica film cameras. Shame they didn’t try to work with Epson or someone else to develop a digital version.

for instance olympus makes a nice camera called the penf [ i love mine ]and my xe2[ also love mine] ... since sony has proved its possible to sell a non european manufacturered full frame modern body for 800 usd perhaps leica can buy a clue and contract panasonic to make a lovely leica cl that isnt dial and input crippled with a trio of small lenses with real helicoids and aperture dials that af [ ligntning speed not necessary ] and mf like a real lens and sell it for about 1500 usd

leica would not threaten its cultish german bodies , but could allow an actual resurgence of interest in corner evf ff bodies and even sony might revisit one of their highpoints the nex 7 with a full frame version of that popular model

I'm not sure that a single batch of firmware updates necessarily reflects continuous improvement... Leica is still far off in this regard compared to Fuji's firmware updates and (arguably) Sony's new camera every 2 weeks.

spoken like a true fanboy ....just not one of fuji i you refuse to intellectually process what fuji does differently from other camera makers , adding feature from new models to older one where feasable is a fuji trait ... not sony and not leica

There are elements of truth to that; and there are elements of obfuscation to that. I assume you, too, are a Fuji owner. We both know that Fuji fans and owners lament that many of their models haven't received any features or even modest updates let alone bug fixes.

It's not a Fuji idea to fix older cameras, or add select features. It is shared by many makers, though not equally, and certainly not universally to the maker in question. Some of the features on the list above are trickle down from the SL. Some are new. Some are bug fixes. This is how Leica have done their firmware updates since the M8. I know noting about the compact world, but let's assume that it's different.

Fixing things and improving things through firmware isn't a Fuji thing. That they publicise it so well, or that their early cameras were so crippled that firmware fixes made them into the cameras they should have been from the outset, largely is a Fuji thing.

if you study current events ,its clear american manufacturing is in the toilet, Americas richest corps avoid tax burdens thru manipulation of laws that benefit corporate interest at the expense of citizen interest

the kaizen principle saw japan move from a nation that exported ceramic trinkets to one that is a leader in tech and electronics,afa american quality control ? ask any honest car buyer of the 3rd quarter of the 20 century wholamented in the overlarge failure prone junk detroit fobbed off on the consumer, as real quality control in japanese cars cause Americans to reconsider their car dollarsall this change is something imbued in a certain japanese spirit & love of perfection & improvement as an early owner of an x100,x10,xe1 I get that Fuji cameras were not quite baked ,but today Fuji produces world class cameras i also have seen a bit of a slip in the "evenness" of kaizen from fuji even as they improve models not produce 6 versions as sony does

crippled how ? like many sony models? that chronically overheat over 6 successive models? like the travesty that was the leica m8?

when fuji reentered the consumer camera market in a serious way with the x100 and the x10 etc there were growing pains ,,, if you are honest every maker has had problems and issues

to regurgitate fujis first growing pains from 2011 is disingenuous and dishonest , today fujis cameras are of a build quality that sony can only dream about , and modern releases from fuji like the xt2 and xpro 2 and xe3 and xh series and their lovely "mf" cameras are excellent brilliant machines with a quality that is rare today. certainly unseen in the camera easybake ovens sony makes and refuses to redesign to lessen overheating shutdown or their 6th rx100 with exactly the same issue of overheating

only Leica camera jewelry has a better build today and at insanely inflated price with a technology , sadly , generations behind the rest of the industry

leica copied nothing in the corporate product improvement strategy known as kaizen ... which was a philosophy that indeed had its roots in America during the 2nd world war, and a method to improve the efficacy of war products. such "improvement " is a long gone memory in the usa

Witness the most expensive least efficient health care in the world serving the sickest unhealthiest first world population.. this is the poster child for all of American corruption and backwardness seen today ... japan, by contrast, applies kaizen to their health industry with a focus on health, not the personal enrichment of corporations.

leica dedication to quality has its roots in something intrinsically German or perhaps European ... german products are well built ,if expensive, that is not originated in Japan, in fact, a case could be made for the opposite as the post ww2 emergent camera market there copied strongly the build and design of German cameras leading to today's Japanese dominance.

You do realize that Fuji actively cripples 4K recording to prevent overheating, right? If Sony did the same, they would have the same thermal abilities as Fuji, despite having smaller bodies. But to offset the gimping, Fuji is glad to have you pay $300+ for a grip that moves the flaming battery outside the body. Physical Kaizen......

Um, If you consider the 50S to be the only high priced model, then you're right. I guess...

The X-H1 and X-T2, the most expensive X-mount models, both cut recording time to half of what Sony offers. You need to spend more to buy a grip to extend that. Now Sony doesn't make a grip, but fortunately, third parties do. For $50. Same solution, 6x+ cheaper. For the really cheap cameras, Fuji cuts 4K to 15fps, which is useless to begin with.

1) If you want a digital rangefinder Leica has no competition.2.) Some people simply make a lot more money than you and dropping $10k+ on a body and some glass isn't a huge financial decision. Just like some people have no issue spending $350 on a Burberry polo shirt or $300k on a Ferrari.

Fish, really, don't worry about it. You and the "photographers" here on Dpreview are not the target customer. It's not personal. Leica is for a different demographic. Fortunately there are plenty of competing products for every price category.

@Richmondthefish I take your point about money and class the Burberry polo the same as Leica. A massive premium for no notable benefits. A car however is different as there are notable specification differences.

I guess we all have different needs/wants. I'll happily spend £8k on a Breitling watch but would happily acknowledge it's a crazy decision.

Leica cameras are very well-built, whereas most mass-produced consumer cameras are compromised noticeably. Plastic, plastic, plastic, even on some that cost thousands of dollars. Olympus just turned the E-M10III into a cost-cutting exercise, but did the price drop? No, they satiated the unwashed by given them more capabilities via firmware. Big deal. Laughable claims by Sony cameras that they are "weather-resistant" when you can clearly see they aren't. And yet, $2000+ for their body.

The difference that you are paying for with Leica's German made camera's is attention to detail, engineering precision & optical excellence bar none, no one does it better, and whereas your Nikon or Canon may be machine built, Leica's are put together by hand.Some as you have rightly pointed out buy/wear Leica like its a fashion brand, others to pose with along with their hipster mates but some of us like myself appreciate the effort & precision that goes into creating a camera that not only render's images the way we like but also thinks as we do, that sometimes, for some people, less is more.

The M10 I've just been gifted is a classic example of this ethos and it works superbly, at last a full frame camera on which you can pre adjust the ISO, Shutter speed, Aperture and the focus without even having to turn it on! Every aspect of the camera controlled via 3 rear buttons, a joystick & command dial without extensive menu's & sub menu's to wade through. It might not have AF, IBIS etc etc but we don't want them!! I have an A7RM3 that sit's unused since the Leica arrived and why is that? because the Leica has soul, the A7RM3 is just a computer with a lens on it.

@The Fat Fish Exactly...there are numerous examples of this and I'd say much worse examples than Leica if you are strictly talking about functionality. To be fair Leica is still your only option if you want a digital rangefinder but if you want a watch I know plenty of good options a heck of a lot cheaper than a Breitling or Rolex(most just use their smart phones if you want the time).

No matter which analogy we are using...Breitling, Burberry, Ferrari these are largely purchased for reasons outside of just functionality(Low percentage of Ferrari owners are taking their cars to the track). For some reason Leica really irks people on dpreview.

But you know that Rolex IS better-built than most watches out there, it's finish and functionality are peerless. That's what's being paid for. Can a $50 linked to atomic clock plastic piece of digital crap tell better time? Sure it can, because it's one piece of technology allows it to exceed mechanical time-keeping in that regard. But it's still a second-rate watch, construction-wise.

@DiffractionLtd We are getting completely off topic. The point is people pay for luxury brands overs functionality. If a watch is intended to keep time there are far more economical ways of doing it over Rolex or F.P. Journe or whoever. I'm not arguing against anyone buying these brands, I brought this up to argue FOR Leica since every single Dpreview Leica story has people who make a comment about the price. Leica's price is what it is. Looking at DXO scores and auto focus for a Leica is like looking at why a Rolex can't load up an email app but an Apple watch can. Apples to Oranges.

If it was simply looks and brand names that sold luxury and not something more substantial, no one would spend the $$$ for the genuine article. They'd all buy counterfeits. Leica offers quality, beyond the die-cast aluminum and magnesium bodies normal cameras have.

Leica prices in my opinion would make logical sense if they included the latest sensor tech and a Free Leica T-shirt but they don’t? The Leica Zagato edition is a work of art but the most important factor in photography is user experience and it struggles compared to something like a Panasonic G9. I’d be interested to know if a Leica branded G9 is in the works?

Because Leica does TONS of rebadges and charges several times the price which lowers the value people put on leica as a brand & Leica has lost a lot of respect from the community over rebadging other brands.

I said: “What is wrong with the Leica sensor tech? The PDR is not far off the A7R3.”

The fact the two are even close outs the myth of far superior sensor tech to bed. The Sony is better but it should be. It’s just not that much better at all. Especially for people who shoot in the 200-3200 ISO range a lot.

"FFpro...The Sony is double the MP of the Leica with the same DR at the base iso....It will have MORE DR than the Leica....Your logic is as bad as the fake facts Howies..."

So you're of the ilk that thinks more mega-pixels makes for a "better" sensor, thereby "better image quality".

Also, it's not like anyone here is disparaging the sensor in the Sony A7RIII, the point of the link is to counter the baseless disparagement of full framed (and yes also Leica, Sony that is, APSC) sensors.

Look, I get it, you're deeply insecure and have to find fault with Leica gear, like to attack, and stalk, those who post facts about Leica's performance.

But now you show your stunning photo gear ignorance by equating pixel count with image quality. The M10 and SL have excellent sensors, the Sony A7RIII has an amazing sensor.

Leica *desperately* needs new updates on their sensors. The aging sensor technology makes their cameras nearly obsolete for professional work. Worse, Leica seems to making a strong stand against ever using Sony sensors in their cameras at a time when Sony has a resounding lead over every other manufacturer. I love the bodies and the menus, and I am actually ok with the "bling" factor. But I am worried. I am waiting for some real changes.

Sony doesn't supply sensors with micro-lenses on them, which is why Leica cannot even consider Sony's sensors. It would litterally render mostly all of Leica's lenses useless in the corners, just like it does when Leica lenses is used on Sony cameras.

I'm sure Leica would consider Sony sensors if Sony was able or willing to manufacture sensors with micro-lenses.

"Leica *desperately* needs new updates on their sensors. The aging sensor technology makes their cameras nearly obsolete for professional work....Worse, Leica seems to making a strong stand against ever using Sony sensors in their cameras at a time when Sony has a resounding lead over every other manufacturer."

Well, since you seem to know nothing about Leica: The TL2 and CL use the latest 24MP Sony APSC sensor. The T and the XU use a Sony 16MP sensor.

Crap you're ignorant of both Sony and Leica.

No one has any particular complaints about the sensor in the SL/M10, or the sensor other full framed sensor in the Q. For a while after the release of firmware V2, the SL had better higher ISO performance than ANY Sony full framed body. I guess these sensors don't have the dynamic range of the sensor in the Sony A9.

I was in a Leica flagship store about 3 weeks ago and was told directly by their tech that Leica does not use Sony sensors in any of their cameras. They have their own supplier who is not named. Sony now makes nearly 50% of the world's sensors and (rumor has it) they intend to be moving up to 100MP in the next "few" years.

If I include them that boosts the numbers by two. I actually have not seen an A9 yet. I have seen a few A7s's but the most popular one I see is the A7RII. I'm not sold on the Sony system just yet but I can see them becoming a lot more popular. It makes sense to see more of a less expensive camera than an expensive one.

True, but Sony, Zeiss, and Sigma are all now up to the point where you cannot tell the difference anymore. Perhaps...perhaps... on an optical bench, but not in the human eye looking at a print of ANY size. I am told that there are subtle differences in color rendition, but I have never been able to see it and no one at Leica, as nice as they have been to me, has ever been able to point that out either, much less how it might override the effects of photoshop on the file.

Where there might be a useful difference is only in quality control. One can expect that all Leica lenses are all great. The variation in quality between lenses in the other brands tends to overshadow their other advantages. But that is getting better. It is standard for many studio photographers to order and test several samples of the same lens before settling on one keeper. But there are many times when a particular individual lens made by another brand is thought to be even better than a "standard" Leica... by accident. Manufacturing is tough. Strange you don't hear this problem with the variation in sensors or their processing software anymore. I think they may be far less time consuming to test.

PS. I do not really understand the "micro- lens" issue.. or why Sony simply cannot make a sensor for a micro lens....if anyone has the patience to explain it.

"I do not really understand the "micro- lens" issue...if anyone has the patience to explain it."

Many sensors have micro-lenses.

Starting with the M8 (Kodak sensored), the sensor for Ms had a curved micro-lens array effectively giving it a curved sensor able to capture the image projected upon the sensor by M lenses, which at wider angles don't move light to the corners real well. Film is much better than digital sensors at capturing light coming to the plane off of perpendicular.

The follow on Ms digital bodies continued with this curved microlens array. And the Leica SL has something similar. The Q does NOT, nor do the APSC bodies like the CL.

This array is the big reason that say a Leica M240 performs better with M lenses than say a full framed Sony A7RII.

Regards the consistency point, yes that's something one pays for with Leica, but there's more, and that more is in their best lenses, the ones for the SL and M mounts, TL not so much.

Thanks...So I *presume* the Q does NOT have any kind of a micro lens array covering the sensor because the 28mm fixed to that camera body is designed differently than other Leica lenses. The Q 28mm lens is designed perhaps more like its competitors, that is , to strike the sensor differently than the M "film directed" lenses were originally designed to do.

I take it then that the "micro lens" is a solution to the problem of adapting the characteristics of older Leica lenses and designs to the inherent problems of focusing on a sensor rather than film. It compensates for, or reshapes the light coming through the camera lens before it impacts the sensor. And sensors of any kind simply cannot compensate for the "better way" film absorbs light. Makes me want to hold on to my Leica film cameras.

The reason I am asking so much about the Q is that it seems like the only one I might ever think of buying at this point...probably after the next hardware upgrade.

"So I *presume* the Q does NOT have any kind of a micro lens array covering the sensor because the 28mm fixed to that camera body is designed differently than other Leica lenses. "

To be clear, what the Q doesn't have is a CURVED microlens array, many camera sensors have microlenses. The Qs sensor may very well have a flat microlens array--like for example the Sony A7RIII. Also the Q does some computational stretching to account for vignetting in the corners.

"And sensors of any kind simply cannot compensate for the "better way" film absorbs light. Makes me want to hold on to my Leica film cameras."

No, the SL and the digital Ms do--also I didn't say "absorb".

(The no longer produced Ricoh APSC module that mounted M lenses has a similar array, it's called the A12.)

How can a camera (or lens, or any product) be bad value for money if the buyer gets what he wants for the price he’s prepared to pay? No one’s forcing you you know. And the whole “It’s not three times as good” argument (not seen here yet) is just pathetic.

@JakeB: Unfortunately 'tools costing a fraction of the cost can produce equivalent results' isn't the case.

My A7rII produces higher resolution files for less money if I put very large, very heavy lenses on them and I can get over the rather poor layout, ergonomics and menus of the camera. It's not a joyful experience; in fact, it's often rather painful and frustrating. But the camera does have its uses, just like the Canons and Nikons I did a lot of work with in past decades. Of course, neither of them could compare with the quality I got with 4x5 or 8x10 film, often for much lower cost.

My Leicas are a pleasure to use as I am very used to rangefinders, and easily produce results that satisfy me. I don't always need the highest resolution or fractionally higher dynamic range. Photography is about more than that.

The Sony and its lenses are my least used cameras, (I also use m43 sometimes) and my Leicas the most used because they make it the easiest to take the pictures I like.

@BlueBomberTurbo Sony updated the a9. Great! How about the other stuff with the a7 (still selling) through a7III group? We can start a list of improvements if you like. Star Eater. PDAF, this list can go on for a while.

I don't use the a9 but I bet Sony has to be more pragmatic with the a9 since it is aimed at sports photography and the update cycle with pros is not like the rest of the market. They will use that a9 until the sensor says give.

PDAF striping is on all OSPDAF cameras. Nothing that can be done about it in-camera. Besides the fact that it's so rare, plus it's easiest to fix on Sony cameras (vs Fuji's grids), it's not an issue to anyone but straw graspers.

"and the update cycle with pros is not like the rest of the market"

A9 II is almost guaranteed to pop up in late 2019 or early 2020 for the Olympics. So 2.5-3 years. Sony doesn't sit on its laurels like other brands (**cough** Nikon **cough**). What trick will Sony pull out of its sleeve for the A9 II? Possibly global shutter, as Sony already has an APS-C global shutter sensor in the works.

The testing posted in the forums here show star eater is still as much an issue as ever. PDAF striping can rear its ugly head when least expected....thus, the photographer needs to adapt to the camera rather than the other way around....which is a poor option.

The issues are still there....defending your brand to the death while ignoring the issues is simply foolish.

Look at the image posted. There's no difference in the stars. You get more noise via sensor heating covering up stars than anything.

And if you'r complaining about PDAF striping, then you can't just blame Sony, as every single other camera with OSPDAF like this has striping, yet no other manufacturer has been able to solve it, either. So yes, Sony isn't worse off than any other manufacturer. They're actually ahead, as methods to eliminate it have been available since before the camera's launch, whereas nothing like that is available for any other brand.

And if you're still going to complain about it, remember that Canon has had striping in their shadows forever (along with the Nikon D7100/5200). And that occurs on every single image, while Sony's and other manufacturers' occurs every 1/10,000 image or so.

Alan Dyer and other here have shown the results with stars with the latest firware...the issue still exists. Odd you want to focus on one image with minimal issues and ignore a bunch of other tests showing the problem is still there. Quit being such a fanboy.

Funny, since many photographers have been fine with using workarounds for decades now. I'm talking about AF fine tuning/microadjusting. Worst part is, it doesn't always work. And it's hard to get around shooting blurry images. Even DPR and Imaging Resource finally acknowledge that this is an issue that holds DSLRs back.

Changing a drive setting or using an automated fix on 1 of 10,000 images takes exponentially less time than tuning even a single lens, let alone your entire collection. On every single new body you get. You can nitpick every little thing about Sony, but they're just little things. Many cameras have much larger issues to contend with, even if it may just be a single issue with them.

The Leica price model amazes me! Leica could charge $10k for a Leica Q and people would still buy lol. This is your brain on Leica-any questions 🙂 Luxury buyers have in their head if they spend a lot of money their in an exclusive club. That’s what fuels Leica euphoria 🤔

@FF I’m not hating I had a Leica Typ 109 that I sold. It produced Great color science & IQ but lack of articulated screen & oddly designed additional grip with my large hands gave me a lot of frustrations while taking photos. I wanted to keep the camera but I couldn’t connect with it. I only used it a handful of times in a single year. Sounds like you lust for Leica with your statement. Nothing wrong with wanting something that can create euphoria experiences and art.

I don't lust for Leica. LOL Good grief. You made statements I disagreed with and I responded. You accuse me of lusting for Leica. What do your original statement have to do with the topic? You lust for drama... 😉

"@FF I’m not hating I had a Leica Typ 109 that I sold. It produced Great color science & IQ but lack of articulated screen & oddly designed additional grip with my large hands gave me a lot of frustrations while taking photos."

First, that's a PanaLeica camera. And it has just a very good lens. Especially by the standards of higher end Leica lenses that lens is nothing amazing.

And those optically better lenses are a big reason people seek out Leicas and specifically a camera like the Leica Q.

Dear Alex Permit...I also failed to fall off my chair when I read the news. This is a date to remember where you were when you heard the news, like the day when they shot JFK. What happens with Leica's Board of Directors? Does the M stands for Metanoia? Why they just don't do it as SONY does? A little make up here, a new apps there, a new obsolete function around here, some candy around there. Not much, just enough to increase the price every year, leaving some for the next, and presto!! Look where are we now...DSC-RX100-VI and Alpha a7-3..!! Why firmware the camera when we can resell the same overpriced box with new firmware and tenfold our profits for the next five years?

Actually, I was not being sarcastic. Leica is a small company with presumably a small number of software developers. Working on, testing, and finally releasing firmware across 5 different camera lines all on the same day is an impressive feat.

since fujifilm dcam users have so many dcam shortcomings needing addressing with "improvement" firmware updates, they have embraced their predicament by giving their unique plethora of firmware updates as a fujifilm kaizen (effect)

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