give me doughnuts:Native American lawmaker to anti-immigrant Kansas official: "When you mention illegal immigrant, I think of all of you"

Really? So tell me, Sitting Bullshiat, exactly what country did the European colonists immigrate to?

The Iriquois League(AKA the Five Nations), the Aztec Empire, the Inca Empire, etc etc etc. Just because they didn't have flags or cannons doesn't mean those weren't countries. Hell, the Mayans/Aztecs/Incas had straight up kings just like the Europeans of the time, complete with bullshiat stories of divine right. Tenochtitlan at the time of the Spanish conquest was one of the largest cities on the whole farking planet. Certainly bigger than Madrid.

The rules of the Iriquois Confederacy may have inspired early drafts of the US constitution.

They weren't ignorant savages wearing skins, grunting in the woods---that was the French and Russian furtraders.

A bigger stronger force came in and took the Indian's land. It's happened since the dawn of man, it will continue long after we're all gone.

ha-ha-guy:Considering there were multiple waves of migration across the land bridge, according to most theories at least, the Indian tribes who were here when Columbus showed up were just those whose ancestors won out during that land grab, not necessarily the first.

A bigger stronger force came in and took the Indian's land. It's happened since the dawn of man, it will continue long after we're all gone.

We didn't take their land. There was lots of land here and nobody was using it. There were no farms, towns, or cities.

Actually according to Canadian and American law, in the Royal Poclamation of 1763, it was clearly stated out which lines were american and canadian and which were each sovereign tribes own land, and that the only way european settlers could live on first nation tribal land was by being purchased by the crown. Because that never happened the law was broken. The mere fact treaties are made proves Tribes were nations. In other words, each tribe or band is a sovereign nation much like Canada or US is, to break those treaties are similar to breaking treaties with Russia or China.

This isn't just a moral issue, it's a legal one, and it's one Canada's currently starting to lose in court, there's actually been a few cases were Aboriginal's couldn't be prosecuted by Canadian judges due to International Law. It's that serious.

And, interestingly, this Native American is obviously pretty ignorant about past intrusions from Mexico. Numerous times tribes from what is now Mexico moved into the American Southwest and decimated tribes that existed there.

But it's different when it's brown or red people doing it. Whitey is all together a different thing.

But, hey, a couple hundred years from now his ancestor will be biatching at the ancestors of the illegals about them coming in and ruining their good thing.

True. They came over the then connected Bering Straight and killed off the previous peoples. They did exactly what the Europeans did to them.

What previous peoples?

Aboriginal Americans, whatever you want to call them. Apparently, Native Americans we know today are the "second wave" and there were people already here from the "first wave." But we're unclear where the first wave came from.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas

There was a good TV special on it produced by the BBC a few years back, don't remember the name. But apparently they basically got pushed down to the tip of south america from the people coming across the bering land bridge

If those theories are correct, then the "first wave" got a far better deal than the second got - peace treaties, massacres, more peace treaties, massacres...then eventually broken up, isolated and given limited rights inside their enclaves.

Guess when Native Americans in general were given full citizenship rights? 1940. There was a 1924 act that was only effective for those born after a certain date. Otherwise, they had to earn citizenship via serving in the military, severing tribal ties, etc.

True. They came over the then connected Bering Straight and killed off the previous peoples. They did exactly what the Europeans did to them.

There is no evidence that there were settled peoples in the US before the natives crossed the Bering straight.

Have you heard of the Kennewick Man? He's an 8000 year old skeleton found in Washington State. His remains caused an uproar in the Native American community because he was found to not be related to any of the modern native tribes through DNA. Very interesting findings!

Yes, but there's no evidence this guy DIDN'T come over across the Berring Straight.

skullkrusher:nocturnal001: I think most here missed her point altogether. Not terribly surprising as nuance isn't handled well by many folks. If you think she was playing the victim and whining about the white man taking her land you are an idiot.

she looks at white people and thinks "illegal immigrant". Ya know, as smart nuanced people do.

You are making my point exactly. As you probably didn't RTA, and instead choose to believe that she is some kind of crazed anti-white crusader who thinks whites are illegals I'll help out. As I don't see any record of her putting forth legislation to deport whites, it's only reasonable to think that she was responding to a bunch of political grandstanding with a flippant remark highlighting that everyone in the US was an immigrant at some point.

Or your take away can be this she looks at white people and thinks "illegal immigrant". Ya know, as smart nuanced people do.

I think most here missed her point altogether. Not terribly surprising as nuance isn't handled well by many folks. If you think she was playing the victim and whining about the white man taking her land you are an idiot.

Have you ever read Undaunted Courage? It's the account of the Lewis & Clark expedition, by Ambrose. It's an awesome book.

Anyways, Lewis had a spiel he read to the native Americans that they met when they gave them trinkets and beads. It was interesting because Jefferson seemed to recognize the tribes as nations in the European sense, but the message of "you're either with us, or we'll roll over you" was quite clear.

DrewCurtisJr:mordi: And what would those long term interest look like?

I don't know, maybe not being conquered.

A few white guys didn`t pose much treath, short or long term, to the Pre-Columbian Native Americans.

From almost the beginning there were those who warned against letting the Europeans gain too much influence. And as a few grew into a few too many the desire for trade made them overlook the obvious.

The point is, the plague wiped out most of the Native Americans before the Europeans got any influence at all. In fact most of them got the plague without ever having met the Europeans. To avoid that, they would have had to be psychic and stop the Europeans from landing in the New World. Without the plague, the Native Americans would have had the manpower to toss those smelly guys back into the ocean if they got too rowdy. After the plague, they could still raze settlements to the ground, but could not realistically stop the invasion unless they united against them, as no lone tribe had the resources to do it alone.So, before the plague got to them, the white man was not of any concern, and when the plague ran trough the Native population like a wildfire, survival would be more or less the only concern. Only after that would Europeans gaining influence be of any concern. But most of them still at this point had no reason see the new Americans as a treat to them, so to expect them to see them as the no. 1 threat to their existence, well... Sure, with hindsight and all that, they should have, but due to the Europeans being from a world they knew nothing about, they could not see the treat they posed until it was to late for them to do anything about it.

So:1: Native Americans being psychic would, like, totally, save the day.2: Lacking any psychic NA`s, uniting forces with your enemy to beat up some tourists would be the only rational choice.3: If failing on both step 1 and 2, boycotting them will fix everything.

DrewCurtisJr:Fart_Machine: Actually plagues took care of most of them.

There were many situations where the tribes were more interested on keeping the beaver pelt trade on lockdown than looking at their long term best interests.

And what would those long term interest look like? A few white guys didn`t pose much treath, short or long term, to the Pre-Columbian Native Americans. A plague that is now considered to far exceed the Black Death`s impact on Europe on the other hand... Besides, if up to 90% of your people dies from an unknown decease, anything long term won`t be high on your list.

Well, goody for him. Too bad that lawmaker can't look at the Rez and other places around this country and see what illegal immigration coupled with the drug cartels are doing to the native peoples.

Large numbers of illegal immigrants have resulted in increased levels of crime on the Reservation. During March 2008 alone, an estimated 15,500 illegal immigrants entered the Reservation. (19) The Desert People now find it necessary to secure their homes because immigrants have stolen food, clothing and other possessions. Sometimes, people find undocumented immigrants sleeping on their porches or in outbuildings near their homes. Until recently, people who lived on the Reservation were able to walk through the desert without fear. Now they have found it increasingly necessary to take personal security measures in order to protect their families and their possessions.Although these problems are immense, one of the most damaging ramifications of human and drug smuggling on the Reservation is the instant wealth that smugglers offer to people who have lived in poverty and deprivation for generations. The lure of tax free dollars in exchange for transportation, food, water, and shelter has led some tribal members (especially the young) to participate in smuggling. Additionally, for humanitarian reasons, some people have established water stations along well-travelled routes through the Reservation. Whereas these stations save lives, they also draw illegal migrants and smugglers. Water stations are a contentious issue on the Reservation, and families are sometimes torn apart by differences of opinion over interaction with illegal migrants and smugglers.

Might be a hard-sell to Kansas lawmakers who believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

/whar landbridge whar?

Actually, there is a YEC theory on continental drift, the land bridge and all that "Satanic" scientifical stuff that would dare suggest the world is older than 6,000-8,000 years old. I forget the author's name, but it took him somewhere around 1,000 pages to say "God did it" and that it had something to do with receding water after the flood. I blame my lack of respect for anyone with the title/s "Dr Rev" in front of their name and my inability to focus on anything for more than a few minutes on that book and the brain cells it killed with its vast amounts of WTF.

True. They came over the then connected Bering Straight and killed off the previous peoples. They did exactly what the Europeans did to them.

There is no evidence that there were settled peoples in the US before the natives crossed the Bering straight.

Have you heard of the Kennewick Man? He's an 8000 year old skeleton found in Washington State. His remains caused an uproar in the Native American community because he was found to not be related to any of the modern native tribes through DNA. Very interesting findings!

from wikipedia: One of the most complete ancient skeletons ever found, bone tests have shown the skeleton to be 8410 +/- 60 B.P. (UCR 3476) (ca 7300 to 7600 B.C.) These findings triggered a nine-year legal clash between scientists, the American government and Native American tribes who claim Kennewick Man as their ancestors. The long dispute has made him an international celebrity.

oh snap. suck it, "natives".

/never had "white guilt"//usa has done way more for the world than natives would have.///admittedly way more harm too, but i digress.//cant we all just get along?

Actually the Kennewick man seems still the subject of debate in the scientific community. If he is in fact Polynesian, it would support my theory that people got around in ancient times a lot more than we think, they just left little to no trace of their voyages.

/the Solutrean hypothesis is interesting too, though I have my doubts on that one//We're ALL people. It's 2013 over here.///Peace and love to all people who return that favor

True. They came over the then connected Bering Straight and killed off the previous peoples. They did exactly what the Europeans did to them.

There is no evidence that there were settled peoples in the US before the natives crossed the Bering straight.

Have you heard of the Kennewick Man? He's an 8000 year old skeleton found in Washington State. His remains caused an uproar in the Native American community because he was found to not be related to any of the modern native tribes through DNA. Very interesting findings!

I think the issue here confusing a lot of Farkers is that there were several waves of immigration across the Bering Land/Ice Bridge when it existed; modern Native Americans living in the US are thought to be descended from a later (obviously pre-Columbian) immigration; if I recall correctly Latin/South American natives are theorized to be descended from a wave even earlier than those living farther North (I'm fuzzy on how many mass migrations there is evidence for total). Kennewick threw everyone for a loop but not appearing to have been descended from either.

Well in the end folks with DNA of native peoples are taking over via demographic trends which in turn gives them political capital. So much capital that a bunch of Bill The Butcher wannabes are about to rend apart one of our two major political parties in order to futilely oppose them.

If only there were a group of people we could look to who believe that land is not something to own, and thus no one can be deemed illegal for occupying it. Bless this brave squaw for fighting the good fight.

I kind of think it's funny that illegal immigration, in many ways, is just a repopulation of America by the people we call Native Americans. It's not like many castizos are coming here. History is all about ebb and flow.

True. They came over the then connected Bering Straight and killed off the previous peoples. They did exactly what the Europeans did to them.

What previous peoples?

The first people to cross the Bering Straight 40k years ago were later replaced by another group who then became "Native Americans". There is still huge debate about the details but it is widely accepted that the current Native people replaced the earlier wave.Go back far enough and they all came from Europe and before that Africa, so Native Americans and European settlers come from common ancestors anyway.