The Danish side of the Cartoon Crisis

OK, I'm gonna cut down on my GLP postings again, but since I've posted quite a bit on various threads I thought I'd just put it all in one big one and be done with it :P

Yeah, it's turned into a psy-ops, yeah, there's something "weird" about the way it's escalating, and yes, it could get really ugly. So just for posterity's sake, here's my attempt at clarifying the issue so at least you have our side of the issue so we don't all blame Denmark for starting WWIII :)

Firstly, yes the cartoons were published in September. The context of the decision to publish was as follows

-Denmark is one of the few countries in the West where we can openly talk about immigration. Unfortunately, this has led to talk of xenophobia, oppression of Islam, racism, etc in the foreign press and among resident foreigners. They're not used to having their "right" to live in a foreign country questioned.

-The contrary is in fact true. Denmark is not oppressing it's muslims, we are just questioning whether we want to *submit* to them or even tolerate their imposition of their rules on *us*.

For example, an Imam (with Danish citizenship) was quoted as saying that it was OK to beat girls who did not wear the veil. (This is cultural aggression, since equality of the sexes is a cornerstone of Danish society). No action was taken against him, except comments like "that's barbaric". But it was left at that.

Halal meat (which is cutting the throat of the animal and letting it slowly bleed to death) is now served in all Copenhagen pre-schools due to protests of muslim parents. Personally, I think even one animal dying this painful and traumatizing way instead of a bullet to the head is one too many, but due to these protests thousands now suffer this fate.

In a few counties school swimming lessons, even if Muslims are only a minority, are now *all* seggregated due to protests from muslim parents who didn't want their daughters swimming with boys.

Due to low native Danish birth rates, very high muslim birth rates, and the continuing effect of chain-migration and asylum applicanst, the muslim minority in Denmark has grown very fast and continues to grow. A study in Norway, for example, showed that Muslims could be an outright majority of the population by 2060. We imagine it could be the same scenario in Denmark.

Freedom of the press was under a perceived pressure, as the movie Theo Van Gogh was killed over in Holland was unable to find a translator who would put his name to the job. Secondly, a children's book (informative, based on muslim sources, very moderate) on the life of Mohammed could not find an illustrator willing to put his name to the job.

And to answer the most asked reply to this, no, holocaust denial is NOT illegal in Denmark, nor is it illegal in most European countries. We can, and DO, publish anti-Israeli cartoons as well.

Add that to the fact that Denmark is a very well-functioning democracy with something like 7 or 8 political parties who all get their say, and also the fact that we have a tradition of talking about things openly, and it was in *this* environment that Jyllandsposten decided to publish the cartoons.

NOT as an unprovoked attack on 1.3 billion muslims, but rather as a *defense* of the free press and a free society. JP chose *not* to give in to fear of radical islamist violence, and they decided to "let the cat out of the bag" as it were and make fun of muslim taboos, just like we make fun of Christian taboos and even Buddhist or Hindu taboos.

Secondly, as for the psy-op angle, it didn't take off until months later, in January. This was a direct result of a delegation of Danish Imams (among them, the guy who said it was ok to beat women for not wearing the veil) going to the Middle East with 3 FAKE and VERY offensive cartoons (mohammed as a pig, mohammed being raped by a dog) to stir up the pot again.

It *had* been almost solved on a government-government issue. The Syrian government just recently (last week) said they were SHOCKED at the cartoons... well, they were aware of them in September and only semi-quietly condemned them in the Arab league back then, I guess the shock must have been so huge that it took 4 months to sink in...

Or else they're just reacting to the public mood (which THEY never wanted to create) unleashed by the Danish Imams and other radical clerics at Friday prayer's - not to mention Al Jazeera and other Arabic stations who took it up at the same time (In January, not September).

So really, the psy-op is not the Jyllandspost or the Danish government, it IS however NOW being used by extremist forces on both sides, but primarily by religious forces in the Arab World who want not only to defend Islam, but also to spread it and impose it's rules on EUROPEAN countries.

And finally,

In my opinion, and the opinion of the majority of Danes I'm sure, we have have no problems with *all* muslims. There's a VERY reasonable MP in our parliament who is from Syria originally, and he's at the moment making an organization for "moderate muslims" so that fundamentalist Imams don't speak on behalf of all of them. Any reasonable Dane recognizes that he is Danish now, if not by birth, then by culture and allegiance. He, incidentally, thought the cartoons were in bad taste, but supports the right of the newspaper to publish them - and he hates the radical Imams who have not adjusted to Danish culture at all.

We do however, have a problem with the (apparently) vast majority of Danish muslims who think Denmark needs to "make compromises" on our culture to make them feel at home. Listen - it's NOT your home if you feel that way about it... you've been here THIRTY YEARS at the MOST... you speak your home language, many of you have your old citizenships, and if you want to make Denmark muslim or proclaim that our newspapers can't make fun of you because you are so over-sensitive and backwards, then you really should just pack up and leave.

We won't miss you.

Statistically, you're a drain on the country anyways. A government commisioned report showed that quite conclusively. People say you can't generalize, but of course you can - as a group, muslim immigrants receive more money in benefits than you pay in taxes, your crime rates (especially rape and violent crime) are *way* above the national average, and your religion is at odds with a liberal western society.

If you want to fully adapt to Denmark's ways, you're welcome to stay. But we are NOT a multicultural society nor do we want to be one - we tolerate minorities and they are protected from racism under the law, and we respect whatever religious beliefs you practice on a personal level because that's none of our business. But we are not going to let your religious *beliefs* influence the way we've run our country for hundreds of years. We fought long and hard to get to where we are now, and we don't want to take a step back in time to the dark ages, thank you very much...

Anyways, so yeah, in conclusion:

To the 1.3 billion muslims who were offended - we're sorry, you should never have seen those cartoons, and you wouldn't have, if fifth column Danish imams hadn't deliberately stirred the pot. We respect you're right to do whatever you want in your own countries, and we (by a vast majority) oppose the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

Now all we're asking for is that same respect - let US do what we want in OUR country. If we start killing our muslims or tearing down all the mosques, you have every right to protest, burn our embassies down, and kill our citizens in retaliation. If we tell them to abide by our LAWS and CULTURAL NORMS, you really should just stay out of it just like we try to stay out of your business.

If you can't do that, then you're not asking for mutual respect, you're asking for submission. And I really don't think we'll ever submit to Islam, at least not without a fight. This is NOT about us attacking muslims or making fun of them just because we can... it's about us defending our own culture and beliefs, which surely muslims - of all people - should understand and respect in the 21st century.

I don't care if you think Islam is a religion of peace... it may well be, and I know that it works very well in the Gulf countries for example. But the RESULT of millions of muslims in EUROPE has been riots, increased crime rates, ethnic tensions, and now the latest benefit - the anger of 1.3 billion muslims who hate us for a cartoon which would never have been published if muslims weren't in Denmark by the hundreds of thousands demanding that we change the way we live to make them feel "welcome"...

The way I heard it is this: In Sept whatever Danish paper Published some cartoons that were part of a contest to illustrate some childrens school book about Muslim culture. There was a severe shortage of Mohammed pictures because Islam is against pictures of Mo, for whatever reason. Since the book was supposed to be for kids whatever Danish brainiac that was in charge of getting the thing published, figured that even though the Islamics hated pictures of Mohammed that he needed them anyway to teach the Danish kiddies. So the Danish paper published the pictures in Sept. Well this pissed off a few radical Inmams who though that the pictures that actualy got published as offensive as they were, just because they exsisted, were not quite offensive enough so THEY added a couple of their own, most in particular the Mohammed with a turban bomb cartoon. At some time or another later on all of em got published and that was what really pissed off the Islamitards and of course they started with the usual Hi-jinks.

SO....how true is that assesment?

____________________________________________________E-mail anytime SHRGLP@Yahoo.com Inquiring about a ban?, include the IP address found here. [link to www.showmemyip.com]

Ooooh, see the fire is sweepin' Our very streets today... Burns like a red coal carpet, Mad bulls lost the way...War, children, it's just a shot away...it's just a shot away....

I think that's a true assessemnt as far as it goes, SHR, but what's almost never mentioned is the fact that Danes are feeling "defensive" about the demands of our muslim community. In a sense, some muslim forces in Denmark (influenced or led by radical imams) pushed, and when we pushed back, they well... you know the rest :P

Right now though, most people mention the "mohammed with a bomb in his turban" when asked... so of course, that's offensive enough too. But to get the issue *started* with a highly influential Islamic Council in Egypt, they used the fake cartoons.

None of the original cartoons really "blasphemed" against Mohammed... at least, not by all definitions of the word. Getting raped by a dog though or beign portrayed as a pig, I imagine would have most muslim Imams take up the "fight to defend their prophet".

And Dilatoriness, you're wrong, like I told you the last time you posted that (if that was you). What's the point of offending Christians from a societal debate perspective? They're not telling anyone how to live their lives anymore, at least not in Denmark. Offending Christians is about a pointless as offending Eskimos in 21st century Denmark... it just comes across as mean-spirited.

Now if we suddenly got 300,000 Christian fundamentalist immigrants trying to change our society, you can bet that satirical cartoons *will* spring up all over the place to start a debate on the topic.

i am assuming this "Jyllands Post" is a privately owned newspaper? so, within reason, they can print whatever they want. If they don't want to publish cartoons attacking "jesus" or "christianity", that's the publishers business, not the Danish Government's and certainly not some sh*t stirring moslem living on the back of Danish tax payers.

Denmark should set an example to the rest of us in Europe and expel all the islamic leeches back to their sandy wastelands.

I had heard it on a talk radio show Sol and I'm not really sure of all the details as far as timing goes and what excactly is what etc. Just that in a nutshell the offensive factor was ramped up by some Inmams that wanted to stir the pot more than it was already stirred.

The problem with these Islamics is always the same, they don't want to become Danish, or whatever, Muslims, they want the Danes to become Muslims and you do the changing. Basicaly that they don't want to become a part of whatever society they emmigrate to, they want to Islamisize it. I say Fuck them viral assholes, You guys hang tough and don't give in.

And Dipshitoriness has posted that reply to about ten threads already in an attempt to prove that she reamins an idiot under any and all circumsatnces. One constant in an every changing world.

____________________________________________________E-mail anytime SHRGLP@Yahoo.com Inquiring about a ban?, include the IP address found here. [link to www.showmemyip.com]

Ooooh, see the fire is sweepin' Our very streets today... Burns like a red coal carpet, Mad bulls lost the way...War, children, it's just a shot away...it's just a shot away....

Foreign Minister: Caricatures No Longer the Issue07.02.2006, klo 10.21 Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja says that the violence and rioting in many Islamic countries has very little to do with offensive cartoons anymore.

Tuomioja wrote in the newspaper Hufvudstadsbladet that worldwide tension between the west and radical Islamist groups was a powder-keg that anything would have set off sooner or later.

Although originally sparked by caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed portrayed as a terrorist in a Danish newspaper, he feels that the incident quickly became a flashpoint for much deeper issues.

Tuomioja adds that if the cartoons published in Jyllands-Posten hadn't set off the furore, something else would have. Now, he says, it’s very important to continue discussions of understanding and respect between civilizations.

Danish and Norwegian Embassies and businesses in particular have been attacked, burned and had stones and petrol bombs thrown at them in places like Iran, Lebanon, Gaza, and Afghanistan. Numerous protests have been organized, including in Helsinki. Some of them were violent, the protest in Helsinki on Monday was peaceful.

And yep, this is NOT about the cartoons anymore, that was just the spark... it is, like many people have predicted would happen for a long time, the inevitable result of a "clash of civilizations". The more the West and Muslim world get to know each other and try to interact on a "physical level" the more they hate each other. The only difference now is that Europeans have found something they *will not* compromise on nor pretend it's all the fault of evil reactionary bigots as usual...

I've said for years that the PTB will use muslim immigrants in Europe as a control mechanism to build a police state, and now that's looking more and more likely. Problem, reaction, solution. It started for real with the French riots last year, and now it'll just continue to escalate until we're all begging for someone to restore order and save us from ourselves... though that's my opinion, etc :P

I was observing with great dismay the pity and shock in the faces and souls of the majority peaceful, ordinary, Moslems due to the "civilized" and "free" filth in the Danish newspapers, and later on in the Norway's, about Prophet Mohammed and Moslems. While doing so, I was incidentally reading the dark history of your ancestors, the pagan Vikings, who raided and looted most of Western Europe between the 8th and the 11th centuries. In fact, I just compared your grandfather's history at that period with the history of Islam. Shockingly, I found that all the Scandinavian people were barely walking animals when Prophet Mohammed enlightened the entire world, early in the 7th century, with the most civilized message and teachings ever.

Therefore, I am writing to you as a Moslem who used to be a "moderate Moslem" but is seriously considering to be another Bin Laden, as is the case with so many Moslems around the globe today.

I just keep wondering why you, the people of the west, tend and claim to be "scientific", "civilized", and "fair" in studying everything, but when it comes to Islam, you ignore all your claims and blindly leave them behind?!

Did your "gang" journalists, cartoonists, or even your closed-minded governments, ever try to be scientific or civilized when analyzing Islam or the life of Prophet Mohammed?! Did they ever understand what civilization is?! Civilization is not just knowing how to process cheese or manufacture some goods, furniture, or equipment. Rather, civilization is, most importantly, the real strive to be fair, humble, compassionate, and, at the minimum, logical and scientific in analyses and judgment of others. What hurts the feelings of every Moslem on earth is the fact that your stupid journalists and politicians are pushing us extremely hard to stop being "moderate", while unfairly accusing Islam and Prophet Mohammed of being a source of terrorism. When a Moslem sees your representation of "moderate Moslems" in one of your stupid the caricatures, he/she must think repeatedly NOT to be a "moderate Moslem" any further. So, who is the source and agitator of terrorism?! (The cartoon shows a Moslem prostrating, with his forehead on the ground, and two "civilized" "Vikings" looking at him and asking one another: is he praying to Mecca?! Then the other said laughingly: No, he is burying his head in the sand! The cartoon shows the Moslem with the phrase "Moderate Moslem" written on his ass!)

In addition, when it comes to the European bloody history compared to the entire world, well-documented figures tell the full truth. You, the "civilized" Europeans killed in less than 200 years much more than what all other societies killed in 5000 years! Just remember how many you, the "civilized Europeans", killed of innocent people everywhere during the 20th century alone! Surprisingly, you always, and in every occasion, claim shamelessly that you are "peaceful" "Christians"! Did Jesus teach you to kill more than 30 million people in just one century? If so, then Christianity must be the bloodiest religion on earth. Otherwise, since Jesus never called for any such thirst for blood, you must not be Christians nor shall you twist the truth and accuse the most peaceful religion, Islam, of being the source of all terror on earth! Not only that, but you falsely claim that you promote and protect the freedom of speech and worship. Alas, you do so just when it serves your ill and bloodthirsty personalities and fake, naked, "civilization".

Just as a simple example, consider what will happen if someone would dare to express any little doubts, in your media, about the extent of the exaggerated Holocaust, regardless of how authentic, scientific, and peaceful his/her argument is. On the other hand, consider the extremely limited freedom of Moslem women to cover their heads with humble scarves in the west. Or consider the freedom of a Moslem to speak against the prevailing western culture, even if he/she does so with full wisdom and professionalism! I know that you would say: if you do not like our culture, then do not come to our society. That is fair, but you do not stop there, unfortunately! You are in fact, the "civilized Europeans", intermingling with all our affairs under the faked covers of "freedom", "human rights", "women rights", "dogs rights", "insects rights", and "everything-except-Moslems rights". On the other hand, you do not accept, or even imagine, that we have the rights to object, try to preserve our cultural identity, or even defend our selves against your intermingling and bloody aggressions! Can't you leave our culture, our Prophet, and us alone, if you cannot be fair and civilized enough?! Can't you try, at least once, to be fair and logical in understanding our culture, the dreams of our innocent children, and the worries and struggles we encounter as human beings like you?! Just to cite an ongoing example, don't you fell ashamed when you compare what the dictator Saddam Hussein did in Iraq with what you, the "civilized Europeans" did in the same country? It is true that he was bloody and killed thousands. However, you "western" "civilized" "Christians" killed at least hundreds of thousands in Iraq and imprisoned the entire country, with the false claim that you came to free them?! Perhaps to free them of their dignity and lives?!

I know you would say: it is the Americans who did all that! Nevertheless, don't forget that they share with you the same thinking, the same culture, and the same worldview. They are basically people who came from Europe and inherited all your diseases. You are simply the same; you are the same "western" "civilized" "Christians"!!

To be fair, I admit that there are western, Christian or Jewish people who are really civilized, humble, fair, and act ethically, like Robert Fisk of the UK, Naom Chomsky of the US, and John Esposito of the US, among others. However, these are very limited in numbers and influence and are exposed to hardship by your "free" civilization one way or the other. Please leave us alone, or otherwise the revenge would be so immense that you cannot cope with it when it knocks your doors.

Just remember; you are simply creating millions of Bin Ladens, whom you know very well. And remember; weak doesn't remain always weak and strong doesn't remain always strong! Moslems are awakening everywhere, partly due to your stupid actions and intermingling. Hence, one day, they will take their revenge, if you do not deal with them NOW with respect and fairness. And the revenge, if you keep charging us, will be beyond your stupid immagination! Finally, I find it ethically a must to warn you that everybody outside your cultural domain see what is going on as a clear indication of the disastrous decline of your ill, naked, crime-based, drug-based, materialistic, and unethical "civilization", if you still have any at all! Mudir Garni said this on January 30th, 2006 at 4:45 am

I mean obviously I'm falling for the psy-op as well since I'm feeling all anti-muslim-immigrant and nationalistic these days, but I know that my views are not the ultimate truth and I can't claim complete non-bias. I will say though, that psy-op or not, I firmly believe that I'm right to do whatever I want in *my* country as long as I give that same courtesy to others in *their* countries.

That's why the psy-op is so brilliant.

The only way to "avoid it" is to pretend - despite all indications to the contrary - that things will work out in the end and humanity will just suddenly learn to live in peace side by side. That Islam is a peaceful religion, and hard demographic and statistical evidence aside, it is absolutely no threat to European culture whatsoever.

Since that's based on an idealistic floating-on-a-pink-cloud mentality, that's even more stupid than going along with the psy-op :P

If anyone has a reasonable response to the psy-op that does not involve putting all one's faith on peaceful dialogue and mutual respect, I'd be glad to hear it, lol... I mean, I'm not against peaceful dialogue or mutual respect, but it's just not going to work at this point. 4000 years of history full of inter-cultural struggles have shown that quite conclusively...

As for

"OP youre a hypocrite! your country rejects printing a spoof on xrist but have no problem printing the one on muhommed. RACISM TO THE FULLEST. You deserve all you get buddy!"

Read my reply to Dilatoriness. Oh, and incidentally, thank you for proving my last point. There can be no peaceful dialogue and mutual respect when one side is represented by close-minded double digit IQ people who are unable to see the issue as anything except an example of evil european racism and hatred :P

well, to the people who are attacking sol,, it is the position of the OP to open dialogue, that is how we,, in the western culture, communicate, argue, compromise and move along

we don't require our women to wear veils,, nor do we do honor killings of our women

i am sure you can retort with all kinds of evil things about the west,, but the fact remains,,, most muslim coutries are barely second world,, what happened guys? somebody miss the boat in the gene pool?

oh,, 30 million killed in 200 years,,,and you realize that 25 million of them were russian, who died during the german war? and at the hands of their communist dictators,,, just asking if you knew that?

i have several friends who are muslim, and they are cool,, they are also westernized and turned their backs on your violent culture,,

"Just remember; you are simply creating millions of Bin Ladens, whom you know very well. And remember; weak doesn't remain always weak and strong doesn't remain always strong! Moslems are awakening everywhere, partly due to your stupid actions and intermingling. Hence, one day, they will take their revenge, if you do not deal with them NOW with respect and fairness. And the revenge, if you keep charging us, will be beyond your stupid immagination!"

LOL, well if that wasn't a threat I don't know what is... that article is exactly what I mean. I agree with some of his political points about the West attacking the Middle East, but then he completely fails to see that the Muslims are also attacking the West - culturally, demographically, economically (draining the welfare state), via high violent crime rates in countries where we previously almost had no violent crime, etc.

It's a TWO WAY street.

I oppose Western aggression agaist Islamic countries, but he seems to think we should RESPECT AND TREAT FAIRLY muslim aggression (even if it's mostly cultural, though the higher crime rates do involve casualties).

That's why dialogue does not work. That guy is an intelligent, moderate muslim, but he is not a "Westernized Muslim". He refuses to see the European side of the issue and is convinced of his own righteousness. He wants submission, not respect.

His loyalty is to Islam first, not his host country (if he lives in the West).

892 - an lesson in history, - we don't care to much about religion. Enjoy ;-)

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The duties and purpose of the Varangian Guard was similar to - if not identical - to the services provided by the Kievan druzhina, the Scandinavian vikinge-lag, and the Anglo-Saxon and Danish huscarls. The Varangians served as the personal lifeguard[1] of the emperor, swearing an oath of loyalty to him; they had ceremonial duties as retainers and acclaimers and performed some police duties, especially with regard to cases of treason and conspiracy.

Face facts, Muslims are the problem. It used to be "Radical" Muslims, but now radical is becoming the status quo. Believe it's some kind of Psy-op if you like, but I believe the problem is a lot simpler. The Islamic brain laundry has worked and these people really are like you see, sad but true.

Freedom of expression is just that, the right to decide what they will and will not print. It is not about tit for tat or equal time as it were.

I also do not understand why it makes sense to the Iranians to have a Holocaust cartoon contest to make a point to the Danes? Why must they always bring Israel into it? Israeli papers did not publish this cartoon out of sensitivity to my knowledge.

Someone is stirring the masses with a political agenda. This is not about Mohammad, but control through anger.

“According to U.S. administration officials, funds for [Hamas] came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel,” Richard Sale of United Press International wrote in 2002. “The PLO was secular and leftist and promoted Palestinian nationalism. Hamas wanted to set up a transnational state under the rule of Islam, much like Khomeini’s Iran.” It should be noted that Hamas evolved from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood (al-Ikhwan al-Muslimeen), a fanatical Wahabbi organization long ago penetrated by British intelligence and then put to use by the CIA.

In fact, the Muslim Brotherhood remains an important asset for the United States, as demonstrated by the fact the “State Department has drawn up a memo calling for direct and permanent political dialogue with the banned Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt,” according to the Egyptian newspaper al-Sharq al-Awsat. “The memo recommends that after reaching common understandings with the Muslim Brotherhood, Washington should pressure the Egyptian government to let the group members speak out their minds freely and play a role on the country’s political landscape, according to the sources.” In other words, the United States would likely support a fanatical Wahabbi government in Egypt, same as they supported a fanatical Wahabbi government in Afghanistan (i.e., the Taliban) prior to nine eleven, the same way Israel supported Hamas. Obviously, a tyrannical and extremist Islamic government in Egypt and elsewhere in the Middle East is preferable to a secular government because the latter is susceptible to democracy—and democracy is the last thing the United States and Israel want in the Middle East, regardless of Bush’s bombastic nonsense about freedom.

Let’s face it. NWO needs to abolish Religion (all religions) before they can move on to their next topic which is to bring their own universal faith in to play. Christianity will be a walk over as we all know. In today's Western society not much room or respect is left for religion. As far as tptb are concerned the biggest obstacle to their plan is Islam. Majority of you who do not know much about the past go on and on about Islam and its down falls. Yet none will stop to think that none of these talk ever existed 30 years ago while you were all too busy worrying about communist Russia. Have you forgotten how all this talk about Islam at one time was directed similarly at Russia? Yet today Russia is your friend and they are all nice people now. Russia has not changed. The people are exactly the same as they were before and yet you are all told to think differently about them and just like OP you all fall in this scam like sheep. It’s a pity that OP who started this thread is blind to this fact, but then again is it really surprising?After all brain washing, Fanatism and barbarism is not just limited to Islam. LOL

I know, Octo, that guy Abu Laban who sponsored the trip to the Middle East also has strong ties with militant islamic organizations, meaning it is a possibility he has marching orders from the "PTB" as well :P

Still, that doesn't change anything in the big picture. Psy-op or not, it's real and based on the heart-felt feelings of 2 billion people (if we just count the West and Islamic World). This is just the culmination of a plan that probably started 50 years ago - to pit the West vs Militant Islam - and if it doesn't take off with this cartoon, they'll just keep finding new controversies until they get it right...

All the explosive ingredients are finally in place - in my view, the only *sane* thing to do is to separate those ingredients before they blow up. That'll mean the West pulling out of Muslim countries, and it'll mean Muslims who don't want to adapt being expelled from Europe.