Monday, November 15, 2004

Islam - What Qur'an Teaches:

Open each numeric link in a new window (right click/new window). The links lead to a website where 3 different people translated verses from the Qu'ran.

Quran tells us to: "not to make friends with Jews, Christians and non-muslims" (5:51) (4:144)(5:82), fight them "until they pay the Jizya (a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" ( 9:29). "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" ( 9:5).Quran says that all those who disbelieve in Islam go to hell (5:10), they are najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders us to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left ( 4.041) (2:193). It prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28).It says that the "non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water" (14:17). It asks the Muslims to "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have great punishment in the world hereafter" (5:33). And tells us that "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (22:19-22) and that they not only will have "disgrace in this life, on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire)" (22:9). (continued below)

Feeling the love yet? Islam is easily proven to be a harsh divider, not a peaceful uniter. Only Islam treats non-believers as inferior beings who are expendable in the drive to world hegemony. Islam justifies any means to achieve the end of establishing an Islamic world. Also, many people mistakenly believe or have been told that islam means 'peace', but it really means 'submission'. 'Salaam' means peace.) "Cult of Death", "Religion of Peace", whatever you want to call islam, the penalty for leaving is death. (source 2) (source 3) (source 4) (more). Want to know what muslims think about ANYONE outside of their belief system? Look at the picture below, then visit this link, scroll down to 'kafir'. Peace? I think I see Noam Chomsky hiding in there somewhere behind Jesse (from the comments section of this post), Juan Cole is in there too! Check these guys out!________________________________________________________________________Is Secularism Anti-Islamic?Secularists may or may not be opposed to religion per se, but secular humanism as a social movement is especially concerned with religious law, whereby a strict doctrine conflicts with the more general concept of religious freedom. Regarding political matters, secular humanism seeks to keep the government separate from the influence of any particular religion in order that rules developed under secularism may be universally applied.VS."Submission" is the religion whereby we recognize God's absolute authority, and reach an unshakable conviction that God ALONE possesses all power; no other entity possesses any power that is independent of Him. The natural result of such a realization is to devote our lives and our worship absolutely to God ALONE. This is the First Commandment in all the scriptures, including the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Final Testament (Quran). (from submissiondotorg) (unshakable conviction???? natural result being this?) remember this?ANDState and Religion: Muslims believe that Islam is a total and a complete way of life. It encompasses all aspects of life. As such, the teachings of Islam do not separate religion from politics. As a matter of fact, state and religion are under the obedience of Allah through the teachings of Islam. Hence, economic and social transactions, as well as educational and political systems are also part of the teachings of Islam. (source: islamdotorgdotnz / islamic affairs /under heading: 'some islamic principles'.) Islamic Politics 101AND"It is necessary for a Muslim to be acquainted with the laws of Shariah, but it is not necessary for him to delve into each law in order to find the underlying wisdom of these laws because knowledge of the wisdom of some of the laws may be beyond his puny comprehension".( source: h*tp://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=10896 change * to t. This is a good link if your wondering about the correct way to copulate with your slave women. Verbatim: "the wisdom underlying the permission granted by Shariah to copulate with a slave woman is as follows": read the link)ANDIslam means SUBMISSION not PEACE! Peace is ONLY achivable under the authority of ISLAM as a ruling system -ANDIt attacked democracy as a springboard for "un-Islamic" practices, claiming that its emphasis on majority rule violated the principle that all laws must come from a divine source. "Candidates in elections are seeking to become demi-gods, while those who vote for them are infidels," it said. (Source: Transcript of audio tape reportedly by Militant leader Abu Musabal-Zarqawi. 1-23-05).

~~~~~If you find this mentality intriguing, research Hirsi Ali , a 32 year old woman raised as a muslim in Somalia and Saudi Arabia. She has become an icon of the treatment of anyone who dares criticize islam, and especially by a woman. Note the statement: "conservative clerics insisted that judgement is forbidden for women in Islam" in the wikipedia bio of Shirin Ebadi. The silence of western feminists on the treatment of women under sharia law is deafening. Brush anything under the rug that may somehow align them with the 'war on terror'? Anyone critical of islam is labeled a kaffir, apostate, blasphemer, incindiary, etc. Speaking out against acts of terror, or descrimination under sharia labels you a neo-con or a conservative apparently. brush brush brush.... Check out the comments section of this post to see how 'Jesse' shows us a fine demonstration of brush and deflect techniques. hollywood and the msm are doing it at this very moment. Short Video. (windows media)----------------As for anything on this blog, read and evaluate for yourself. Sources are provided wherever possible. The message of islam and political islam are one and the same. I'll just think out loud here. Why are some muslims called 'moderate muslims' and some called 'islamic fundamentalist'? It seems to me that the tenets of the religion call for one to buy into it 100%. So why the 34% or the 58%? Here is an interesting hypothesis. Note the excerpt from an article posted here: "The problem is that the vast silent majority of these Moslems are not part of the terror and of the incitement, but they also do not stand up against it. They become accomplices, by omission, and this applies to political leaders, intellectuals, business people and many others. Many of them can certainly tell right from wrong, but are afraid to express their views". End quote. Is denouncing terror committed in the name of islam haraam? Remember that for muslims, this life and this world are merely a place to express and prove devotion to allah. The belief system of islam is based entirely on the afterlife, heaven or paradise. Logic, fairness and concepts of peaceful co-existance relating to others may not be a concern for muslims when it comes to determining their pecking order or rank in their percieved paradise. The qur'an also makes the convenient reference that muslims arent responsible for their actions, thus explaining why many muslims are apathetic towards despicable acts of terrorism in the name of the belief system. Its all just shahada to them.

Do (devout, pious, kinda-sorta, whatever) muslims truly believe that their religion supercedes the constitution (above the law) of the countries they may or may not live in? Do non-muslims realize this? (apparently not)Is there a division among muslims regarding this? Just who's submitting and who's not here? Are peaceful, freedom loving people justified in finding blind faith of an ambiguous belief system integrating into free societys to be a threat to the very concepts those societys are founded on? Research the muslim influx into Malmo, Sweden.Read and evaluate, and wonder why other blogs/websites dont point blank welcome you to do that. I'm not sold that anyone has all the answers. Some of the people have some of the answers, some claim to be or are percieved as anointed. Personally there are very few issues I feel 100% about because of ambiguous or obscured facts. On the topic of islam and blind faith, I find it appalling, so no 100% for me. Count me out!

This blog isnt dated, I dont like to bury the older posts. Scroll wayyyyy down for more and above all "read and evaluate". Comments welcome. Thought provoking critical analysis is fine by me.________________________________________________________

CAIR goes to great lengths to present a sugar coated peaceful islam. These muslims disagree. (realmedia video) This lady can exist in real life, but if you were to depict her character in a movie, CAIR would flip out!

Heres something to ponder... whenever you see some mob of islamists burning an American flag on tv or wherever, consider this: They're not burning it because of Bush, Clinton, McDonalds, Carter, Reagan, foreign policy, hijab bans, Israel etc etc etc. They are burning it because the American flag represents the most visible antithesis to Sharia ( islamic law) and the islamic dominated lifestyle. It is very cut and dried. The line is drawn and anything on the other side is 'America'. Here is a good example: "they excoriate the US, along with everything that comes from that direction, reforms or otherwise". Read the article (note how the al-jazeera editors use only the most unflattering pics of western representatives). Remember that due to the multitude of 'burn in hell' threats from the koran, al-jazeera's "Persuit of Arab Reform" section boils down to the catch-22 of anyone logically addressing reform issues will get labeled a blasphemer. Forget logic, calling someone a blasphemer is an expression of shahada. Its all about paradise, remember? Al-jazeera is a bu$ine$$ that panders to this audience. Fan the flames. $$$$$. Watch whats going on in your town, your country, the world and especially the Middle East. Every time you see that American flag burning, consider that free speech, equality and democracy can be considered haraam by many within islam.Its religious fascism straight from the quran.Promoted by islamic theocrats (religious politicians, clerics, imams, sheiks) near you to the submitters (muslims).example?tons more .

Islam is just as guilty of imperialistic, expansionistic, discrimination as those it points the finger at.Regardless of the mountain of eyebrow raising, stomach turning evidence, CAIR will continue to promote their perpetual victim syndrome, and try to make this about flesh and blood people. Is it? No it isnt. Its about an ideology. And no ideology is above critical examination of its motives. For example, examinig racial bigotry isnt about the racist, its about racism. Read and Evaluate.(Continuation) Quran says that "those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy" (25:68). For those who "believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" (48:13). (Look at article 7 of the Palestinian constitution, and article 3 of Syria's constitution. Speaking of Palestine, <) As for him who does not believe in Islam the Prophet says that after he dies it will be announced with a "stern command": "Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (69:30-37)The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that "it is good for us even if we dislike it" (2:216). Then he advises us to "strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (47:4). Our God has promised to "instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers" and has ordered us to "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (8:12). and "to strike terror into (the hearts of the enemies" (8:60).He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that "Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed" (9:73).He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will "wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones" (55:56). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly (no hangovers!) for what we did (56:19). And have "boys like hidden pearls" (52:24) and "youth never altering in age like scattered pearls" (76:19)As you see, Allah has promised all sorts of unlimited rewards, gluttony and sex to Muslim men who kill the unbelievers in his name, not forgetting even those with pedophilic inclinations. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find "goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni" (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good) (3:85).As for women, the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises men to take a green branch and beat their wives, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal rights, it decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that.[A word of warning for those who may find their version of Quran is translated differently from those appearing in this article: Almost all the translators of Quran have deliberately tried to soften the harsh verses of Quran. Yusufali especially goes out of his way to twists the meaning of the words and hide the harshness of Quran. For example he translates the verse (38:44) that says "take a green branch and beat your wife" as "take a little green grass and strike therewith". Or when he translates the verse (4:34) that says "beat your wife" he cannot help it but to add the word (lightly) in parenthesis.]Dear fellow Muslim: Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could God incite us to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it and presenting Islam as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism to the lay public is suppression of truth. The history of Islam between 7th and 14th century is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behavior of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following Sunnah) is firstly impossible and secondly dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial on this simple issue?When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said "To you be your religion, and to me my religion" (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Quran is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2:83), exhorted them to be patient (Q. 20:103) and said that "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256). But all that changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying the unbelievers was justified in innumerable verses with harshness and without mercy. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions?The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements breaking the treaties he had signed with them and banished some of them after confiscating their belongings massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men and those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah a Jewish girl in the same day he captured her town, Kheibar, and killed her father, husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quraiza whom he used as sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated a score of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 6* year old Ayesha. (*Often disputed. Additional source is h*tp://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6778 ).These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that these behaviors were not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not of someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all the creation.There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, that took place at his behest. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, by Bin Sa'd, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children, 'Asma' Bint Marwan, wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night, which was carried out while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guilaume's translation "The Life of Muhammad") page 675, 676).Dear conscientious Muslims: Question yourselves- isn't this compulsive dogma of following a man who lived 1400 years ago, leading us to doom in this changing world? Who are we deceiving? See how our Umma (people) have sunk into poverty and how we lag behind the rest of the world? Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong?The hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes, we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw, those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, the result is human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in Philippines, slavery and genocide in Sudan, honor Killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in all Islamic countries. We are responsible because we endorsed Islam and hailed it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what Quran preaches and ironically we are the main victims too.If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the world for what happened in NYC, then why are we supporting Quran that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what Quran ask them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are simply doing that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it.We can stop this madness. Yes we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Quran. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Quran the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war.Islam divides the world in two parts: Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytize and procreate until their number increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam.(Funny, I dont recall Michael Moore discussing this in Fahrenheit 911. I also wonder why Susan Sarandon or Sean Penn never touch on these topics. When analyzing the far left or far right, look at what they DONT discuss, as well as what they do).In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is an abuse of trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. If this sound to you abhorrent, we ask you how can you support a doctrine that is so deceiving, so cunning and so ruthless? Let us see what great Islamic scholars have to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan, the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Quran into English wrote: "Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in (9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon "the fighting" against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are STRONG and have the ability to fight against them. So at first "the fighting" was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory "[Introduction to Englishtranslation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.]Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician, quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: ?The command to fight the infidels was DELAYED UNTIL THE MUSLIMS BECOME STRONG, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p.269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: "Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims." [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them" (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in Quran and were revealed when Islam was weak.Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace?Conclusion: We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith as it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for, we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Quran, the choice became clear: it is either Islam or it is humanity. If Islam is to thrive, humanity has to die. We decided to side with humanity. We are still Muslims culturally but we no more believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We endeavor for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for secularization of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thoughts, beliefs and expressions We have decided not to live anymore in self-deception but to embrace humanity, enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people or other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace. We denounce the violence that is eulogized in Quran as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in sacredness of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. And we invite you to join us and the rest of the humanity and be part of the family of humankind with love, camaraderie and peace.

28 Comments:

i'm all for free speech, but you need to take a deeper and more complete look at the islamic faith before you can generalize like this. you know, the bible has some pretty radical and violent passages but that doesn't mean that christianity is a faith that teaches violence.

i have to say, if i were a moderate muslim, i would be EXTREMELY offended. hell, i'm catholic, and i'm still pretty offended.

Cultfree's entitle to his views. If you think he/she have misinterpreted your believes, you could just simply point that out to him in a cold emotionless debate, based only on reason. And he has the right to defend his views too and also to accept defeat once proven wrong in the process of the discussion. =)

Emotions are irrational..Anger is a foolish reaction to things. Violence and conflicts does not resolve any issues. Which is why essential communication is the only way to things.

Ok, no religion exists in a vacuum. How about addressing the point of the first comment, logically.

How is Islam anymore a religion of violence than Christianity? Examples abound in both religions of instruction that requires their believers to graphically destroy anyone who believes another religion.

Every single point you raised has an exact corrolary in the Christian Bible. The very fundament of your argument against Islam is exactly a christian idea, that "we recognize God's absolute authority, and reach an unshakable conviction that God ALONE possesses all power".

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM.

You would be a smarter man, if you were not so blinded by hate. It makes you ignorant. This ignorance can be seen not only in the arrogance and naivete of your arguments, but in your lack of ability to make a coherent or even typographically correct argument against something you hate so passionately.

Jesse said:The very fundament of your argument against Islam is exactly a christian idea, that "we recognize God's absolute authority, and reach an unshakable conviction that God ALONE possesses all power".This has NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM._______________I said:Hasnt cultfree made an effort to provide sources and references for the info on this blog?did jesse not go to the so-called 'best source for islam on the internet" to read it for herself? Cultfree provided the source. which is here:http://www.submission.org/islam/introduction.htmlHow do you figure that it has nothing to do with islam (in ALL CAPS no less)?It is in the koran:http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.085and http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.019

For anyone reading this, notice how many leftist liberals (or whatever label they have today) will use these arguments in debates like this. (Look at jesse's blog).1: accuse you of being an islamophobe.2: accuse you of being a hater. (by pointing out hate? how does that work?)3: Pit religious belief systems against each other in an attempt to deflect criticism of the one in question._I 100% agree with cultfree's stance that the perception of the 'evil western foreign policies" are a ruse, a red herring. Islamists are simply pre-disposed to hate anything non-islamic. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/048.qmt.html#048.013Rational people could've solved the Palestinian / Israeli situation a thousand times over. Watch the video on the blog where the little girl says that shahada (an act or acts that declares your devotion to allah, either violent or non violent, in this case; suicide bombing)is more rewarding than peace because it buys you a good spot in paradise (heaven). Whats better than dying for your god as a martyr? Simple. Living in misery as one. Dont believe this concept exists? Look at al-Tatber (Tazyeia, Maatam), the shiite tradition of expression of grief, involving self flagellation (beating). It is where shiite muslims march in public display weeping, hitting their faces and beating themselves with chains. The more blood they draw and the more misery they cause themselves, is considered a form of shahada. Whether or not this is an officially sanctioned practice doesnt stop it from occuring by thousands of believers.http://www.documentography.com/eduardo/shia/pages/shia_uk_01.htmSo who's to say what is and isnt islam? Certainly not jesse. Is islam a peaceful religion hijacked by evil people?Or an evil religion hijacked by peaceful people?

Perhaps I should have said: "This has nothing /specifically/ to do with Islam."

In other words, it's a baseless criticism, since it can be leveled against any mono-theistic religion. To use it as a foundation for an argument against Islam carries no more weight than arguing against all religions. Which you do so ferverently, that you lose sight of reality. You remember? This place where things have shades of grey, and every bit of bad comes with some good, and every bit of good with some bad, that kind of thing.

It is the lazy mind that looks at their own beliefs and see only the good, and looks at others beliefs and sees only the bad.

You're an anti-zealot zealot, so wrapped up in hating that you can't even take the time to breath, to reflect, and to properly present your ideas in a coherent and logical form. This includes properly citing sources, not just properly citing sources to the one piece of inflammatory evidence you want people to see. It involves spelling out your arguments, not saying stuff like: "(unshakable conviction???? natural result being this?) remember this?". These are rhetorical tricks, NOT arguments.

If you start out with your conclusion already made, you can find evidence to support just about anything, as long as you ignore the rest of the evidence, and push your point with rhetorical tricks rather than reasonable arguments. Again, the product of a lazy mind.

"Rational people could've solved the Palestinian / Israeli situation a thousand times over."

How? By killing all the muslims (since they will hate and fight forever anyway)? Or killing all the Jews (since all the arguments you've made about Islam can be made against any religion)? Which are worse? Which better? These are the questions that such a naive philosophy can't answer, even though they so arrogantly presume to.

Or should we just kill anyone who isn't a secular humanist? Now, there's a humanist solution.

Perhaps I should have said: "This has nothing /specifically/ to do with Islam."Perhaps you should have just admitted to being clueless. The source is right there on the blog for anyone to verify. Throwing specifically in there doesnt change anything.

To use it as a foundation for an argument against Islam carries no more weight than arguing against all religions.Religion is the key word here. The ambitions of Islam are to be far more than a religion and thats what most people dont understand. Islam is also a system of legislation, law, law enforcement, moral code, and to permeate every aspect of its believers lives, and bleed into the lives of non-believers. Study the culture of Saudi Arabia to understand the division islam places on those who submit and those who dont, and you'll see that Islamic law places a distinct 2nd class citizen status on non-muslims. Interesting. While most of the world is striving for equality and freedom, islam is fighting to limit and stifle it based on its vision of religious based law. Can you honestly say that about any other religion?. Feel free to point out any country in the world where religious (other than islamic) based fascism is so prevelant. Many people find it a serious threat to democratic government everywhere. Understand that many of the conflicts in the world today are based on established democratic societys fighting an influx of islamofascism. Start with Thailand and the Phillipines. Get ready for it in Europe. How many links to news reports of Christian or Judeo seperatists movements can you provide? Look at Beslan, or Bali, or Madrid or 9-11. Watch the movie "Submission" and try to understand why the filmmaker was murdered in broad daylight for making a movie (written by an ex-muslim woman)critical of islamic treatment of women.Jesse has every right to criticize the government of her choice, but that wouldnt happen in an Islamic society. You wouldnt get very far in Iran or Saudi Arabia doing that, especially if your a woman. They would string you up quick.

you can find evidence to support just about anything, as long as you ignore the rest of the evidence, I absolutely agree. But due to the lack of a sharia law based structure like islam has, I dont feel threatened by other religions. I'm a firm believer in human rights, equality (note the koranic advocation of violence and subjugation in the link)and democratic government. That is the antithesis of islamic sharia law. Fair enough?

it's a baseless criticism, since it can be leveled against any mono-theistic religion.If other religions try to impose a Sharia-type law, then I'm against them too. When Imams (spiritual lawmakers & guiders) think they can preach stuff like this and have it revered as 'the truth', then yes, I have a problem with it. Dont you?

You're an anti-zealot zealot, so wrapped up in hatingIf someone were critical of the KKK or a neo-nazi group, would you label them as wrapped up in hating? warped.

I love people, but I despise certain ideologies and belief systems that impose on the freewill of man to guide his own destiny. I respect those who warn others of the evils of blind faith and its scare tactics. I was born with no inherent enemies. I offer evidence to allow people to read and evaluate. Percieve my opinions as rhetorical tricks if you like, where I come from its called commentary.

Ok, maybe english isn't your first language, or maybe you forgot your anti-pathetic meds again, so I'll try to help. (no comment btw, on faking your own blog posts, and then agreeing with them! hah! are you that desperate for support?).

English lesson #1: 'specifically' is a word that has meaning, like most words. Maybe you'll understand if I say it another way, using shorter words. You can't use as evidence against Islam something that is evidence against everything, its a logical fallacy (a meaningless logical statement, from which you can reason any conclusion).

English lesson #2: 'Commentary' is not 'argument'. One follows reason, is verifiable, testable, meaningful, valuable. The other is drivel, diarrhea of the mouth, that won't convince anyone of anything. And yes, it is a rhetorical trick to put such drivel inside something that pretends to be an argument, because minds that are weaker even than your own will be fooled into thinking it's an argument, and that is dishonest trickery.

Here is what is going on in this Iranian mosque. Or is it all of them worldwide?Here is a clear example of your bigotry. You absolutely cannot generalize from one country (where a militant Islamic revolution siezed power in a coup), to the entire Muslim faith. There are millions and millions of Muslims living peacefully in democratic, and even non-secular, nations. Read about Mali when you get a chance. 90% Muslim, Democratic.

This is exactly the line where your "commentary" becomes irrational hate, right where you start taking the few slices of evidence you want to see (Iran, Saudi Arabia) and you generalize that evidence to the entire world. It's sophmoric bullshit, worthy of a childrens book. A Nazi children's book.

Get ready for it in Europe.And yet you rail about scare tactics. How about making an ARGUMENT about why Europe is about to have its democracies endangered by 'islamofascism' (wtf IS that btw?), instead of just saying "Brace yourselves! Islam is falling on Europe!".

How many links to news reports of Christian or Judeo seperatists movements can you provide?I would bet there are more christian seperatist movements _inside_ the United States, then there are 'Islam-o-fascist' regimes in the _entire world_. Take off your filter man.

How about we start with the aptly named, Christian Seperatist Church: http://www.christianseparatist.org/

Or here, for a discussion of the "fact that the Christian faith [is] itself seperatist": http://www.reachingforchrist.org/theology/index.php

The list goes on and on and on. Remember Waco in Texas? Ruby Ridge in Idaho? The Freemen in Montana? The KKK is a christian seperatist movement inside the United States. There are SO many examples, I can't believe you even mentioned it.

try to understand why the filmmaker was murdered in broad daylightTry to understand why Martin Luther King, or JFK, was "murdered in broad daylight", or why anyone is. They were murdered because someone really really hated what they had to say. Not because some religion has some fundamental flaw (no more than any other religion). You are misdirecting again, using commentary as evidence, arguing with emotion. Yes, it is a terrible thing that the filmmaker was murdered, and that David Pearl was kidnapped, and that the towers were destroyed. That is not evidence that condemns Islam, it condemns the people who did the killing. For example, if the KKK lynched a bunch of people today, using the Bible as justification (using passages like the one Lisa owned you with), we would not blame Christianity, we would blame the KKK, and rightly so.

Also, none of your links work, blogger made them all relative to blogger.com, so you can't follow them (and it may do the same to mine as well, who knows).

When Imams (spiritual lawmakers & guiders) think they can preach stuff like this and have it revered as 'the truth', then yes, I have a problem with it. Dont you?Well, I can't follow your link, since it's broken. But I can imagine the worst that could be there, something about 'kill the infidels!' I bet. And yes, I don't agree with this ideology, and when they use this, or anything else, as justification to commit a crime, or atrocity, arrest them, punish them, for the crime they committed, regardless of the belief they held that led them to commit it. You cannot condemn the religion for the actions of a select few. Your filter has forgotten that there is HUGE world out there, full of people that would never take 'kill the infidels!' seriously. Just like there are millions of christians that don't believe 9-11 was a sign from God that the fags were in big trouble, even though a small minority does believe that.

I'll say it again, it is a lazy mind that looks at others beliefs and sees only the bad, and looks at their own beliefs and sees only the good.

"Saudi Arabia's King Fahd and Crown Prince Abdullah, in a joint speech, urged Muslims to shun terrorism which they said meant 'warring against God and his Prophet,' to follow Islam's teachings of moderation and forgiveness and to unite."- Rueters

Hehe. If I want lessons in how to 'filter', I'll visit your blog. Its a regular Filter-Fest. Jesse said: "I laugh heartily, then delete them". End quote. Well that sounds pretty filterish to me. I've yet to delete a comment on this blog. I welcome opposing viewpoints. Personally I think your comments are great because it shows the lengths you'll go to to make this about ME, and to minimize the wealth of information and sources I provide. Hmmm this isnt about ME. But since I throw in some commentary, I guess thats an easy target to harp on. JESSE: Heres a challenge for you. Lets up the ante a little bit and trade links. I can handle it can you? I'll make a link heading called "Blogs That Cant Stand This Blog" or as mild or generic as you want. All in the spirit of proving that you and I arent afraid of being 'filters' or afraid of opposing or alternative viewpoints. I can predict I'll get accused of being a hater, childish, misinformed blah blah blah. Oh well.

The platform of the CultFree blog is that islam is a political movement disguised as and hiding under a so-called peaceful religion, and that people exist in the world who are unaware of that. I feel that your blog and ones like it will never admit to that or discuss it in a million years, or simply refute it to no end. Obviously politics and foreign policy issues are your forte, so why not? Bring your 6 writers and 2 websites and 1 blog and I'll bring my self and my 1 blog. I will welcome my traffic to read and evaluate your blog and you can extend the same to yours. You've already admitted you have a quick trigger finger to delete comments that dont support your agenda, so that puts me at a distinct disadvantage right away. Notice how the good bad and ugly are still sitting right there on CultFree. Link Trade? Deal?

You can quote out of context all you want filter-boy, it seems to be your only analytical skill, but I also said (in reference to usamnesia) that "this blog, and certainly this thread, are not interested in discussing whether Islam is a good or bad religion". Your comments were deleted because they were not only dishonest (posting with multiple names to agree with yourself, your one other piece of rhetorical genius, reserved for those special "Mommy can I win now?" moments) but they were inappropriate for the blog and distracting for the thread that you were posting in. I pay for my site, don't waste my money advertising for yours. Post on my site all you want, post constructively, make arguments, and use links as evidence, not advertisements. I regularly delete comment-spam (which is very different from opposing viewpoints), as all responsible admins do.

Notice I didn't shy away from you or from the issue though, I came straight here, to a place that IS interested in discussing whether Islam is good or bad. Then I proceeded to pull your pants down in front of both people that read your site, and all you could say was "Yeah, well, umm, you, umm, have a filter too man!".

I don't want to link trade with you because I think you have a horrible site, with overly long, overly pedantic, improperly formatted, incoherent drivel on it. You have one lame talking point, ONE real post, no 'audience', no rhetorical skills. Why would I recommend that my readers come here?

I'll come here, as long as your pathetic attempts at argument entertain me, but I wouldn't wish the same on anyone else who wasn't deliberately seeking that out.

Not to go off on the same rant but all religions are victims of an overtly violent past but Islam is the only one that remains as violent in practice as its inception. No god Know peace. Keep blogging!!!

Allah Bless plays the tired old "out of context' card.Here is the mentality he is trying to hide by promoting the 'religion of peace' myth:

Constitution for the new Islamic Republic of USA is under construction.

We will fight infidel to death. Meanwhile, American laws will protect us. Democrats and Leftist will support us. UNO will legitimize us. CAIR will incubate us. ACLU will empower us. Western Universities will shelter us. Hollywood will love us.

Our children will immigrate from Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Indonesia and even from India to the US for education in full scholarship. America is paying and will continue to pay for our children’s educations and their upbringing in state funded Islamic schools.

We will use your welfare system. Our children will also send money home while they are preparing for Jihad.

We will take advantage of American kindness, gullibility, and compassion. When time comes we will stab them in the back to death. We will say one thing on the camera and teach another thing to our children at home. We will teach our children Islamic value from the very childhood. We will teach them not to compromise with Infidel. Once we do that from the very early age our children won’t hesitate to be martyr. We will take over the Europe first and then US. We already have a solid ground in the UK, Holland, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Germany, and US.

Our children will marry Caucasian in Europe and in America. We will mixed with intricate fabric of the Western society but still will remember to Jihad when times come. We are called “sleeper cells”. We will raise our children to be loyal to Islam and Mohammad.

At the time of the real fight we will hold our own children as our armor. When American or Israeli troops shoot at us the world will be watching. Imagine,… Imagine the news in the world /. Death of Muslim babies by infidels.

Visualize the news flash all over the world, …Moslem mother is sobbing, ….crying. ….Her babies are killed by Jews and Americans, the whole world is watching live. Hundrends of millions of Muslims all around the world are boiling. They will march through Europe. We will use our women to produce more babies who will in turn be used as armor/shield. Our babies are the gift from Allah for Jihad.

West manufactures their tanks in the factory. We will manufacture our military force by natural means, by producing more babies. That is the way it is cheaper.

You infidels at this site cannot defeat us. We are 1.2 billion. We will double again. Do you have enough bullets to kill us?

On the camera: We will always say, “Islam is the religion of Piece.” We will say, “Jihad is actually inner Jihad.” There will be more 911 in Europe and in America. We will say, “We do not support terrorism but America got what it deserved.”

Muslims, CAIR, ISNA and other international Islamic Organization will unite. We will partner with Leftist, ACLU, with Koffi Annan, and the UN, and if we have to then even with France. Fasten your seatbelt, war of civilizations has just begun.

All these years the Arabs have enslaved my brothers and sisters in the Sudan, in Mauritania in Saudi Arabia, persecuting the black native Egyptians in Egypt, all these years the Nazi Mufti legacy his deadly Hitler pact "lives" on, the most Stanic book on earth ever "MeinKampf" is a best seller in the Arab world, they invite KKK David Duke to speak, or just check out http://memri.org that translates Arab press into English, see what they say, what they write in their manistream awful press, and ugly schools.

The perfect example is your Islamist "hero" Mullah "anti zionist" with the Nukes that calls for a nw Holocaust and wants to pave it via being "skeptic" on the first...

Now, What did you Arabs think?Tha white Nazis will kiss you for that?You are the same brown people and garbage in their eyes, you could keep on kissing and licking Hitlerists' ass, but they want your Arab Muslim ass roasted or into he gas chambers.

Do you get it?I doubt you want to get it.

You didn't get it at your "shock" in Sidney where Arab Muslims have attacked innocent Australians on the beach that brought a backlash from local Neo Nazis.

Islam is not a religion of peace (that ignorant person who said "of piece" should pardon the English language for the difficulties of our spelling conventions). Islam is not a religion of peace, it is a religion of intolerance and arrogance. There is no room for Islam in the world, if Muslims cannot say anything better than that only Muslims know what is right to think.

Islam is nothing more than a religious expression derived from the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, and Jewish and Christian traditions and practice in Late Antiquity. The idea about the revelation to Muhammad is crazy.

Moreover, the derivation from Jewish and Christian traditions amounts to a cruel crystallization, which no thoughtful and responsible person should wish to follow.

The pilgrimage to Makkat-ul-muqaddamah is inhumane.

The daily prayer cycle is fine for monks; but as something commanded of all people, it is inhumane.

The alms-giving is fine for generous people, and is indeed a virtue within Judaism and Christianity, but as a commandment within Islam, it becomes inhumane.

Nearly the worst thing about Islam is the sense that Muslims are the only ones who count, nobody else has rights, the sensitivity of everyone else can be ignored.

The very worst thing about Islam is the refusal of Muslims to denounce the horrors committed by Muslims in the name of Islam.

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