Quote: Have we really gotten to the point where being a Christian is considered un-American?

Hmm...
Goebbels, although later embracing a weird mixture of neo-paganism, was of fervent Catholic extraction...and so was Hitler according to some disparate quotations...not to mention Catholic monsignor Tiszo, premier of collaborationist Slovakia and the slant towards authoritarian Catholicism of the collaborationist Vichy government...
Could it be that the rubber band of war propaganda never stopped snapping back?
Of course, you cannot in the same sentence blame THEIR religiosity AND safeguard YOURS.
Oh yes, Catholics...while here we're talking about Quakers, Baptists, Calvinists...as if anyone on the streets could really tell religious radicals apart.
Much as you cannot in the same sentence berate white supremacy as heralded by fascist regimes AND pretend at home it was all of a different sort.
Of course, my friend isn't really a thief: juvenile hijinx; my enemy is a vile thief who steals other people's belongings...
Too bad it doesn't work in the long run.

A.A Mole University
B.A London Institute of Applied Research
B.Sc Millard Fillmore
M.A International Institute for Advanced Studies
Ph.D London Institute of Applied Research
Ph.D Millard Fillmore

Hitler referred to the SS as his "black Jesuits"...The current Pope...Benedict the xvi, has stated that men who are gay...will not be allowed in the seminary. Weeding out the homosexuals, during the initial interview for acceptance into seminary, is a good thing. Actively "homosexual priests" have been a "grave scandal" in the Church, especially since Vatican II...the "spate of molestation's" that has been ongoing for so many years, is a direct result of the ordination of "queer seminarians", ordained in "overflow" numbers since the close of Vatican II!...I am overjoyed that our present Pope has firmly taken a stand, which forbids the participation of "gay" men in our seminaries, who are seeking ordination to the Catholic priesthood. Gay men can do many things in the Church...the priesthood should not be one of them. Archbishop Fulton Sheen will soon be canonized...one of the great saints of the 20th century. Don't get me started on lesbian nuns...

Quote: Have we really gotten to the point where being a Christian is considered un-American?

Hmm...
Goebbels, although later embracing a weird mixture of neo-paganism, was of fervent Catholic extraction...and so was Hitler according to some disparate quotations...not to mention Catholic monsignor Tiszo, premier of collaborationist Slovakia and the slant towards authoritarian Catholicism of the collaborationist Vichy government...
Could it be that the rubber band of war propaganda never stopped snapping back?
Of course, you cannot in the same sentence blame THEIR religiosity AND safeguard YOURS.
Oh yes, Catholics...while here we're talking about Quakers, Baptists, Calvinists...as if anyone on the streets could really tell religious radicals apart.
Much as you cannot in the same sentence berate white supremacy as heralded by fascist regimes AND pretend at home it was all of a different sort.
Of course, my friend isn't really a thief: juvenile hijinx; my enemy is a vile thief who steals other people's belongings...
Too bad it doesn't work in the long run.

The role that Christianity, and in partidular the Catholic Faith played in the third reich is centred in considerable controversy.

One of the first churchmen to oppose the Third Reich was Clemens August von Galen, the Bishop of Munster. Von Galen had opposed Hitlers program of euthenasia for sick, crippled and feebleminded people. We also need to remember that Pope Pius XI had the encyclical “With Burning Sorrow" read from every pulpet in Germany.

I would say that the fact that many Nazi Collaborators in places like Croatia, Slovakia and elsewhere were catholics and even Catholic clergymen, the church was by and large hostile towards Nazi ideology.

Though hostile towards the Christian faith, Hitler did not oppose attempts to recruite religiously oriented people to join in his cause. He was more than willing to accept the support of christians and others who were willing to give him support.

It also stands to reason that Alfred Rosenberg made the case for the "New Religion of the Blood" which opposed Christian altrusm. Himler actually created a religion of his own within the context of the SS. It is well documented that Hitler and his collegues were believers in the occult. This may be why so many pagan symbols were incorporated in Nazi imagry. For example, the Swastika is of Hindu origen and was the symbol of the sun.

Hitler was raised Catholic and stopped attending mass in his youth. He wanted Germany and the Reich to return to it's pagan Norse roots and eventually return to the worship of Odin and Thor and the belief in Valhalla and all the pagan mumbo-jumbo that the Vikings embraced prior to becoming Christian. The Church was in clear opposition to the Reich and it's liquidation of Jewry and Slavs as well as the developmentally disabled. Catholics and the Church, were never synonymous with Nazi ideology, anymore than Lutherans were, who also opposed the Reich and the propaganda it was spreading, in order to inculcate the masses with it's poison. Himmler was a Lutheran in name only, I doubt he followed the teaching of the Lutheran church, while he was overseeing the liquidation of hundreds of thousands of innocents. Saint Maximilian Kolbe, a Polish Franciscan priest, comes to mind. He was martyred for his faith in Auschwitz, as he volunteered to take the place of a man slated for the gas chamber. Edith Stein also comes to mind, a Catholic nun who was a convert from Judaism, she was also liquidated in Auschwitz. She was canonized by Pope John Paul II, and is called Saint Benedicta in the hagiography of the Church. Everything that Nazism stood for, the Catholic Church was in opposition too.

You may be surprised to read that some far-right groups (out of germanophobia or ideological divides) were opposed to NSDAP and fought in the resistence. Whereas germanophobic Maurras (royalist and localist) hailed as "divine surprise" the Petain government the defeat at Germany's hands had made possible.
The Catholic Church?
You'll find frocks and gowns on any side of the fence at all times, to be ready to seize the moment whoever wins.
A couple examples:
1 the constitutional priests during the French revolution. Some clergymen elected to the Etats Generaux inaugurated the movement (marriage, devolution of church properties...).
2 liberation theology. Jesus is interpreted as another Che Guevara. Very popular in Latin America especially in past decades, supports guerilla, violent overthrow of social injustice and the physical execution of opponents, all in accordance with (their reading of) the bible.
So we can safely say that Catholics are jacks of all trades in politics.
Also, some emphasize ideological dissent, while others see in Pio XI's distaste for Hitler just a reflection of Hitler's clampdown against the powerful Catholic party ZENTRUM in Southern Germany (Church estates, etc).

A.A Mole University
B.A London Institute of Applied Research
B.Sc Millard Fillmore
M.A International Institute for Advanced Studies
Ph.D London Institute of Applied Research
Ph.D Millard Fillmore

Liberation Theology has been condemned by the Catholic Church as heresy, never was it a "dogma" of the Church...The Church has always had heretical clergy and lay persons in it...they do not represent the "magisterium of the Church", nor what the Church teaches on matters of faith and morals. "Modernism" was also condemned as heresy...many priests's espoused the virtue of this heresy...some were excommunicated for it. Don't confuse a dissident cleric or bishop, with the teaching magisterium of the Catholic Church. Heretical priests Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and George Tyrell come to mind...as well as Luther.

(08-03-2012, 12:41 AM)bigfoot Wrote: Liberation Theology has been condemned by the Catholic Church as heresy, never was it a "dogma" of the Church...The Church has always had heretical clergy and lay persons in it...they do not represent the "magisterium of the Church", nor what the Church teaches on matters of faith and morals. "Modernism" was also condemned as heresy...many priests's espoused the virtue of this heresy...some were excommunicated for it. Don't confuse a dissident cleric or bishop, with the teaching magisterium of the Catholic Church. Heretical priests Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and George Tyrell come to mind...as well as Luther.

As I said, the Pope Pio XI excommunicated Fascist and royalist French ACTION FRANCAISE for doctrinary reasons; adherents could not receive the sacraments...Pio XII lifted the ban in 1939...the Spanish civil war had brought anticommunism en vogue...
Was the Pope right or wrong the first or second time?
You cannot dissociate Church and politics.
Nothing prevents one from being a Catholic much as nothing prevents one from being a Conservative or a Liberal or a Labourist...yet you just cannot say that it's gold all that glitters in any party, church or political movement.
As far as majorities go, first you got the Orthodox, then Anglican, then Lutheran churches...

A.A Mole University
B.A London Institute of Applied Research
B.Sc Millard Fillmore
M.A International Institute for Advanced Studies
Ph.D London Institute of Applied Research
Ph.D Millard Fillmore

The Pope was right on both counts...those who were excommunicated were excommunicated for a grave matter...those who are excommunicates can also be reconciled within the Church. As a penitent they would have to confess the sinful activity that led to excommunication and perform the penance prescribed by the cleric or Bishop in the confessional. A person has to have a firm amendment to turn away from the activity that led them into a state of mortal sin and excommunication... without this resolution the penitent cannot be forgiven, if he/she conceals or lies in the confessional, the confession is invalid and they must now confess the new sin...lying in the confessional...a gravely sinful matter. A Catholic is bound to follow the laws of his nation and state, provided those laws are not immoral and incongruent with the Church's teaching on matters of faith and morals. Citizens of Great Britain were martyred when they would not take the oath of supremacy, declaring Henry, the "head" of the Church in England...he was an excommunicate, who had no authority to start any new Church! Christ himself, personally started the Church in Jerusalem, in the year 33. In fact Henry, who was Catholic was even given the title, "defender of the faith", during the reformation, as he refuted the doctrinal teaching of former Augustinian monk Martin Luther. Of course Henry was ultimately excommunicated as well...rightfully so

Here's a follow-up, just to illustrate a point...Robert Mugabe is the president of Zimbabwe...we all agree, that he is a dictator/junta of the regime called "Zanu-PF". Mugabe is also a confirmed Catholic, married in the Church and went to Catholic grammar and secondary school. A couple of years ago, he was at the beatification ceremony of John Paul the II at the Vatican... without invitation, he arrived! He was also given communion, on the tongue at the altar rail. Should he have been denied holy communion, this sacrament, that binds Catholics together? He should not have been! Why??? RM has not done anything to excommunicate himself from the Church...he may be a tyrant, maybe even in a state of mortal sin...but the priest does not know whether or not he is, or is not in a state of mortal sin! Robert may have gone to confession that morning...he may have been in a "state of grace"..the morning that he received the Eucharist. Only God knows the state of Mugabe's soul...and as I say, he is not an excommunicate...in fact, he has a Jesuit spiritual adviser, or at least he used too. Even the Mugabe's of this world can be forgiven...