A question regarding Maneaters or other units which are immune to psychology but also stubborn.

If a unit of Maneaters is in contact with a unit carrying the Standard of Balance what happens? The standard makes them Immune to Psychology (which they already are) but would they also lose the stubborn ability? Usually they would as a consequence of becoming ItP but I wasn't entirely sure in this case. For frenzied units a special case is given in the description (which would also imply that the Maneaters lose stubborn although they are already ItP). Is there a stock answer to this query?

cheers,

enyoss

T10

08-08-2005, 13:08

Immunity to Psychology negates both negative and "beneficial" psychology effects: a unit that is Immune to Psychology does not take Fear, Terror or Stupidity checks, and does not benefit from Frenzy or Hatred.

I do not recall Stubborn being exempt from this rule.

I do not know the rules for the Man-eaters, but if there are no special provisions made in their unit entry I believe they are cannot benefit from Stubborn while Frenzied (Frenzied Troops are immune to Pshychology while Frenzy is in effect).

However, this is a moot point as they would lose Frenzy once they lost a round of combat, in which case Stubborn immediately applies to the Break test.

-T10

Avian

08-08-2005, 13:59

What's this about Frenzy??? :confused:

Maneaters are Stubborn but otherwise Immune to Psychology. Attempting to make them Immune to Psychology again has no effect, since they are already Immune to Psychology.

Just as Goblins do not take two Fear tests when outnumbered by Phoenix Guard (gobbos Fear elves they don't outnumber 2:1 but PG cause Fear anyway).

enyoss

08-08-2005, 15:09

It seems like I confused things a bit by mentioning frenzy. Apologies :) Maneaters are Immune to Psychology and Stubborn, not frenzied in any way.

My point was that frenzied troops are also Immune to Psychology but the banner does have additional effects on them in that they lose their frenzy as if they had lost combat. So, the question is whether or not stubborn troops who are otherwise already ItP are affected in a similar way.

What sets this apart from the afore-mentioned fear scenario is that ItP and Stubborn are mutually exclusive rules. This makes it more complicated to assess how their combo interacts with other rules as it's not taken into account in the BRB. Surely if a unit is ItP apart from Stubborn then making them immune to ALL psychology shades in the remaining box.

Has anyone ever come across this when playing and decided one way or the other?

cheers,

enyoss

WLBjork

08-08-2005, 17:53

I had something similar when I slammed Thorgrim into an enemy unit with *that* banner.

Thorgrim goes one better than your example, as the unit he is with also benefits from hatred :D

We played it that it did make the unit completely Immune to Psycology, including Hatred and Stubborn.

Zeb

08-08-2005, 18:17

Funny thing is that Frenzied Witch Elfs won't count as Immune to Psycology in the matter of Soul Shadows Standard. According to Gav.

So my best estimate is to leave frenzy out of the question...

Atrahasis

08-08-2005, 21:08

Firstly, frenzy DOES NOT make a unit ItP, frenzied units simply do not take Psychology tests while frenzied.

Maneaters are Stubborn even though ItP, so making them ItP does nothing to them, they can't get even more ItP.

T10

09-08-2005, 07:08

What's this about Frenzy??? :confused:

Doh!

My carefully crafted reasoning unravels. Well, when you make an assumption...

-T10

T10

09-08-2005, 07:11

We played it that it did make the unit completely Immune to Psycology, including Hatred and Stubborn.

Sounds reasonable to me.

-T10

enyoss

09-08-2005, 10:27

Ok then, if frenzied troops are not ItP but just ignore tests then I think that clears this up as the precedent doesn't carry.

However I still maintain that thay can be made more immune to psychology... by being immune to Stubborn :p Anyway, I suppose I will just have to find less sneaky ways to get rid of those Ogres :)

cheers for the comments,

enyoss

gortexgunnerson

09-08-2005, 10:55

I would say that the magic banner takes their stubborn as immune to psy troops cannot be stubborn as it is psy. Man eaters are immune to psy except stubborn. If they become truely immune to psy then they would lose this bonus.

Or at least thats how I'd read it

Atrahasis

09-08-2005, 11:11

Maneaters are Stubborn even though Immune to Psychology. If a banner makes them ItP, then they're STILL Stubborn even though immune to psychology.

Immunity to Psychology has no affect on a Maneater's Stubbornness. Ever.

This is a case of the Magic over Mundane trump which was thankfully scrapped at the end of the last edition.