The Quran is I believe like the Bible in some ways. If we all followed the old testament it would be a brutal and bloody way of life.

The Quran has parts that were written in times of war, these are the parts some fanatics follow. Other parts were written at times of peace and this is what peaceful mainstream Muslims follow.At least that's what I understand it to be, I'm not really up on it.

The community surrounding Mohammed was persecuted for about a decade, and they endured this persecution peacefully. Eventually the persecution became violent, and they left to settle somewhere else. Those who had run them off still warred with this community. It was determined that fighting in self defense was ok.

These groups were warring against Mohammed and his followers, which is why you find these scriptures.

No, Muslims are not supposed to persecute Christians and Jews, they are supposed to protect them. Historically, the taxes imposed on this groups by Caliphates of the Ummah were used even to aid in maintaining the churches of those who were taxed.

The Qur'an says that there can be no compulsion in religion and that violence is only justifiable if you are being persecuted violently for your religion. Even then, it is a matter of choice, and you can peacefully resist as well.

These scriptures look bad when taken out of context, but context reveals a great deal more.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,

At 7/19/2016 4:16:58 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:The community surrounding Mohammed was persecuted for about a decade, and they endured this persecution peacefully. Eventually the persecution became violent, and they left to settle somewhere else. Those who had run them off still warred with this community. It was determined that fighting in self defense was ok.

These groups were warring against Mohammed and his followers, which is why you find these scriptures.

No, Muslims are not supposed to persecute Christians and Jews, they are supposed to protect them. Historically, the taxes imposed on this groups by Caliphates of the Ummah were used even to aid in maintaining the churches of those who were taxed.

The Qur'an says that there can be no compulsion in religion and that violence is only justifiable if you are being persecuted violently for your religion. Even then, it is a matter of choice, and you can peacefully resist as well.

These scriptures look bad when taken out of context, but context reveals a great deal more.

So it is these "defensive" scriptures that extremists use to justify there action?

An "infidel" is someone who doesn't keep their vows. Like the man who cheats on his wife every chance he gets, or the man who is paid to do something and then refuses to do it.

An infidel is not simply someone who doesn't believe in a scripture. The meaning is a bit more nuanced than that. An infidel is a lawless person who has no honor.

Especially in times of scarcity, catastrophe, or war, such people become liabilities.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,

At 7/19/2016 4:16:58 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:The community surrounding Mohammed was persecuted for about a decade, and they endured this persecution peacefully. Eventually the persecution became violent, and they left to settle somewhere else. Those who had run them off still warred with this community. It was determined that fighting in self defense was ok.

These groups were warring against Mohammed and his followers, which is why you find these scriptures.

No, Muslims are not supposed to persecute Christians and Jews, they are supposed to protect them. Historically, the taxes imposed on this groups by Caliphates of the Ummah were used even to aid in maintaining the churches of those who were taxed.

The Qur'an says that there can be no compulsion in religion and that violence is only justifiable if you are being persecuted violently for your religion. Even then, it is a matter of choice, and you can peacefully resist as well.

These scriptures look bad when taken out of context, but context reveals a great deal more.

So it is these "defensive" scriptures that extremists use to justify there action?

It's a lot more complicated than that even. Sometimes it is more important how things look than how things actually are. A lot of people in the middle east are being taught that America and the west have declared war against Islam. Likewise, a lot of people in America and the west are not getting accurate news.

There is a lot of really terrible political stuff going on behind all this, and it's really unfortunate.

People will exploit the believers of any religion by taking scripture out of context to move along personal or group agendas. This has been going on since time immemorial, and I don't think it's going to stop any time soon.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,

At 7/19/2016 4:16:58 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:The community surrounding Mohammed was persecuted for about a decade, and they endured this persecution peacefully. Eventually the persecution became violent, and they left to settle somewhere else. Those who had run them off still warred with this community. It was determined that fighting in self defense was ok.

These groups were warring against Mohammed and his followers, which is why you find these scriptures.

No, Muslims are not supposed to persecute Christians and Jews, they are supposed to protect them. Historically, the taxes imposed on this groups by Caliphates of the Ummah were used even to aid in maintaining the churches of those who were taxed.

The Qur'an says that there can be no compulsion in religion and that violence is only justifiable if you are being persecuted violently for your religion. Even then, it is a matter of choice, and you can peacefully resist as well.

These scriptures look bad when taken out of context, but context reveals a great deal more.

Admirable attempt to justify the verses, I can sort of understand your point. And you are right, when taken out of context do look bad or seem dangerous, I just wish that the radical Muslims could see that.

At 7/19/2016 3:52:28 PM, johnlubba wrote:Why are there verses which state to kill all infidels in the Quran,How does this equate to a religion of peace?

Christ said choose and follow, Mohammad said submit and follow.

-shrug- Not sure why it makes a difference, really.

Should I be disappointed to see that you are still stupid.

His point remains valid.

Islamists might threaten to kill you if you do not convert to Islam in your lifetime.Christ promises to murder you circa His second coming if you do not accept Him as your Lord and saviour.

Would you be so kind as to illuminate the transcendent difference between the two attitudes?

Would you be so kind to confirm if there is an afterlife in which you can be killed?

And the relevance of that would be....?

Also it's not murder in the afterlife in Christianity, it's actually eternal life in hell.So you are really of point, here.

Eternal life in hell sounds worse than having your lfie taken, something which inflicts finite suffering.

And that very much depends on which theology you subscribe to. A number of Christian denominations do not believe in a literal Hell as a place of eternal torment. What's prevalent across denominations though is that most teach that, yes, Christ will destroy those who do not accept Him circa His second coming.

And there is a vast difference in instructing followers to kill all infidels in this life. as opposed to an afterlife.

I think you're giving it more relevance that it deserves.Note, however, that I agree that Islamism should very much be opposed and fought against.

At 7/19/2016 3:52:28 PM, johnlubba wrote:Why are there verses which state to kill all infidels in the Quran,How does this equate to a religion of peace?

Christ said choose and follow, Mohammad said submit and follow.

-shrug- Not sure why it makes a difference, really.

Should I be disappointed to see that you are still stupid.

His point remains valid.

Islamists might threaten to kill you if you do not convert to Islam in your lifetime.Christ promises to murder you circa His second coming if you do not accept Him as your Lord and saviour.

Would you be so kind as to illuminate the transcendent difference between the two attitudes?

Would you be so kind to confirm if there is an afterlife in which you can be killed?

And the relevance of that would be....?

Because if you can't confirm the afterlife to be true, then threats about what's going to happen in the afterlife are irrelevant here. It what's happening in this lifetime that's my concern.

Also it's not murder in the afterlife in Christianity, it's actually eternal life in hell.So you are really of point, here.

Eternal life in hell sounds worse than having your lfie taken, something which inflicts finite suffering.

And that very much depends on which theology you subscribe to. A number of Christian denominations do not believe in a literal Hell as a place of eternal torment. What's prevalent across denominations though is that most teach that, yes, Christ will destroy those who do not accept Him circa His second coming.

And there is a vast difference in instructing followers to kill all infidels in this life. as opposed to an afterlife.

I think you're giving it more relevance that it deserves.Note, however, that I agree that Islamism should very much be opposed and fought against.

Dude, this isn't a Christian verses Islam post, I am asking why verses in the Quran instruct it's followers to kill all infidels. Pointing out the things you have a concern within Christianity about, are not really my worry.

At 7/19/2016 3:52:28 PM, johnlubba wrote:Why are there verses which state to kill all infidels in the Quran,How does this equate to a religion of peace?

Christ said choose and follow, Mohammad said submit and follow.

-shrug- Not sure why it makes a difference, really.

Should I be disappointed to see that you are still stupid.

His point remains valid.

Islamists might threaten to kill you if you do not convert to Islam in your lifetime.Christ promises to murder you circa His second coming if you do not accept Him as your Lord and saviour.

Would you be so kind as to illuminate the transcendent difference between the two attitudes?

Would you be so kind to confirm if there is an afterlife in which you can be killed?

And the relevance of that would be....?

Because if you can't confirm the afterlife to be true, then threats about what's going to happen in the afterlife are irrelevant here. It what's happening in this lifetime that's my concern.

You're missing the point.An evaluation of the morality, or lack thereof, of both religious doctrines needs not to concern itself with that, but just with the propositions themselves. And, in that regard, they're nearly identical.

Also it's not murder in the afterlife in Christianity, it's actually eternal life in hell.So you are really of point, here.

Eternal life in hell sounds worse than having your lfie taken, something which inflicts finite suffering.

And that very much depends on which theology you subscribe to. A number of Christian denominations do not believe in a literal Hell as a place of eternal torment. What's prevalent across denominations though is that most teach that, yes, Christ will destroy those who do not accept Him circa His second coming.

And there is a vast difference in instructing followers to kill all infidels in this life. as opposed to an afterlife.

I think you're giving it more relevance that it deserves.Note, however, that I agree that Islamism should very much be opposed and fought against.

Dude, this isn't a Christian verses Islam post, I am asking why verses in the Quran instruct it's followers to kill all infidels.

Dude, you attempted to refute a comparison between the two. I then chimed in.

Pointing out the things you have a concern within Christianity about, are not really my worry.

Again, you attempted to refute the equivalence of the two. I then chimed in.

At 7/19/2016 3:52:28 PM, johnlubba wrote:Why are there verses which state to kill all infidels in the Quran,How does this equate to a religion of peace?

Christ said choose and follow, Mohammad said submit and follow.

-shrug- Not sure why it makes a difference, really.

Should I be disappointed to see that you are still stupid.

His point remains valid.

Islamists might threaten to kill you if you do not convert to Islam in your lifetime.Christ promises to murder you circa His second coming if you do not accept Him as your Lord and saviour.

Would you be so kind as to illuminate the transcendent difference between the two attitudes?

Would you be so kind to confirm if there is an afterlife in which you can be killed?

And the relevance of that would be....?

Because if you can't confirm the afterlife to be true, then threats about what's going to happen in the afterlife are irrelevant here. It what's happening in this lifetime that's my concern.

You're missing the point.An evaluation of the morality, or lack thereof, of both religious doctrines needs not to concern itself with that, but just with the propositions themselves. And, in that regard, they're nearly identical.

Also it's not murder in the afterlife in Christianity, it's actually eternal life in hell.So you are really of point, here.

Eternal life in hell sounds worse than having your lfie taken, something which inflicts finite suffering.

And that very much depends on which theology you subscribe to. A number of Christian denominations do not believe in a literal Hell as a place of eternal torment. What's prevalent across denominations though is that most teach that, yes, Christ will destroy those who do not accept Him circa His second coming.

And there is a vast difference in instructing followers to kill all infidels in this life. as opposed to an afterlife.

I think you're giving it more relevance that it deserves.Note, however, that I agree that Islamism should very much be opposed and fought against.

Dude, this isn't a Christian verses Islam post, I am asking why verses in the Quran instruct it's followers to kill all infidels.

Dude, you attempted to refute a comparison between the two. I then chimed in.

Pointing out the things you have a concern within Christianity about, are not really my worry.

Again, you attempted to refute the equivalence of the two. I then chimed in.

Wrong, you chimed in when trying to justify the equivalence between the two by another poster,

At 7/19/2016 3:52:28 PM, johnlubba wrote:Why are there verses which state to kill all infidels in the Quran,How does this equate to a religion of peace?

Christ said choose and follow, Mohammad said submit and follow.

-shrug- Not sure why it makes a difference, really.

Should I be disappointed to see that you are still stupid.

His point remains valid.

Islamists might threaten to kill you if you do not convert to Islam in your lifetime.Christ promises to murder you circa His second coming if you do not accept Him as your Lord and saviour.

Would you be so kind as to illuminate the transcendent difference between the two attitudes?

Would you be so kind to confirm if there is an afterlife in which you can be killed?

And the relevance of that would be....?

Because if you can't confirm the afterlife to be true, then threats about what's going to happen in the afterlife are irrelevant here. It what's happening in this lifetime that's my concern.

You're missing the point.An evaluation of the morality, or lack thereof, of both religious doctrines needs not to concern itself with that, but just with the propositions themselves. And, in that regard, they're nearly identical.

Also it's not murder in the afterlife in Christianity, it's actually eternal life in hell.So you are really of point, here.

Eternal life in hell sounds worse than having your lfie taken, something which inflicts finite suffering.

And that very much depends on which theology you subscribe to. A number of Christian denominations do not believe in a literal Hell as a place of eternal torment. What's prevalent across denominations though is that most teach that, yes, Christ will destroy those who do not accept Him circa His second coming.

And there is a vast difference in instructing followers to kill all infidels in this life. as opposed to an afterlife.

I think you're giving it more relevance that it deserves.Note, however, that I agree that Islamism should very much be opposed and fought against.

Dude, this isn't a Christian verses Islam post, I am asking why verses in the Quran instruct it's followers to kill all infidels.

Dude, you attempted to refute a comparison between the two. I then chimed in.

Pointing out the things you have a concern within Christianity about, are not really my worry.

Again, you attempted to refute the equivalence of the two. I then chimed in.

Wrong, you chimed in when trying to justify the equivalence between the two by another poster,

Wrong.

This is the transcription of the exchange:

"

At 7/19/2016 4:11:16 PM, johnlubba wrote:

At 7/19/2016 4:02:42 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

At 7/19/2016 3:52:28 PM, johnlubba wrote:Why are there verses which state to kill all infidels in the Quran,How does this equate to a religion of peace?

Christ said choose and follow, Mohammad said submit and follow.

-shrug- Not sure why it makes a difference, really.

Should I be disappointed to see that you are still stupid.

"

You essentially said he didn't have a point, to what I responded:

"

His point remains valid.Islamists might threaten to kill you if you do not convert to Islam in your lifetime.Christ promises to murder you circa His second coming if you do not accept Him as your Lord and saviour.

Would you be so kind as to illuminate the transcendent difference between the two attitudes?

"

You then replied:

"

Would you be so kind to confirm if there is an afterlife in which you can be killed?

Also it's not murder in the afterlife in Christianity, it's actually eternal life in hell.So you are really of point, here.

And there is a vast difference in instructing followers to kill all infidels in this life. as opposed to an afterlife.

At 7/19/2016 4:16:58 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:The community surrounding Mohammed was persecuted for about a decade, and they endured this persecution peacefully. Eventually the persecution became violent, and they left to settle somewhere else. Those who had run them off still warred with this community. It was determined that fighting in self defense was ok.

These groups were warring against Mohammed and his followers, which is why you find these scriptures.

No, Muslims are not supposed to persecute Christians and Jews, they are supposed to protect them. Historically, the taxes imposed on this groups by Caliphates of the Ummah were used even to aid in maintaining the churches of those who were taxed.

The Qur'an says that there can be no compulsion in religion and that violence is only justifiable if you are being persecuted violently for your religion. Even then, it is a matter of choice, and you can peacefully resist as well.

These scriptures look bad when taken out of context, but context reveals a great deal more.

Admirable attempt to justify the verses, I can sort of understand your point. And you are right, when taken out of context do look bad or seem dangerous, I just wish that the radical Muslims could see that.

See, that sounds very different when translated.

When you say, "radical muslim", there is a lot of baggage in that understanding. In Arabic, "muslim" means "one who submits to God".

It is not always a bad thing to be radical about submitting to God. Radical has to do with being different from the ordinary. If you look at Jesus, was this not a man who was very radical about submitting to God? It sure can be seen that way.

Radical Islam is not really the enemy. I don't usually agree with American pseudo-liberals on their idea of political correct speech, but they are right to distance themselves from making this the enemy. It's very dangerous, and it doesn't translate well into other languages.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,

At 7/19/2016 3:52:28 PM, johnlubba wrote:Why are there verses which state to kill all infidels in the Quran,How does this equate to a religion of peace?

Christ said choose and follow, Mohammad said submit and follow.

-shrug- Not sure why it makes a difference, really.

Should I be disappointed to see that you are still stupid.

His point remains valid.

Islamists might threaten to kill you if you do not convert to Islam in your lifetime.Christ promises to murder you circa His second coming if you do not accept Him as your Lord and saviour.

Would you be so kind as to illuminate the transcendent difference between the two attitudes?

Would you be so kind to confirm if there is an afterlife in which you can be killed?

And the relevance of that would be....?

Because if you can't confirm the afterlife to be true, then threats about what's going to happen in the afterlife are irrelevant here. It what's happening in this lifetime that's my concern.

You're missing the point.An evaluation of the morality, or lack thereof, of both religious doctrines needs not to concern itself with that, but just with the propositions themselves. And, in that regard, they're nearly identical.

Also it's not murder in the afterlife in Christianity, it's actually eternal life in hell.So you are really of point, here.

Eternal life in hell sounds worse than having your lfie taken, something which inflicts finite suffering.

And that very much depends on which theology you subscribe to. A number of Christian denominations do not believe in a literal Hell as a place of eternal torment. What's prevalent across denominations though is that most teach that, yes, Christ will destroy those who do not accept Him circa His second coming.

And there is a vast difference in instructing followers to kill all infidels in this life. as opposed to an afterlife.

I think you're giving it more relevance that it deserves.Note, however, that I agree that Islamism should very much be opposed and fought against.

Dude, this isn't a Christian verses Islam post, I am asking why verses in the Quran instruct it's followers to kill all infidels.

Dude, you attempted to refute a comparison between the two. I then chimed in.

Pointing out the things you have a concern within Christianity about, are not really my worry.

Again, you attempted to refute the equivalence of the two. I then chimed in.

Wrong, you chimed in when trying to justify the equivalence between the two by another poster,

Wrong.

This is the transcription of the exchange:

"

At 7/19/2016 4:11:16 PM, johnlubba wrote:

At 7/19/2016 4:02:42 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

At 7/19/2016 3:52:28 PM, johnlubba wrote:Why are there verses which state to kill all infidels in the Quran,How does this equate to a religion of peace?

Christ said choose and follow, Mohammad said submit and follow.

-shrug- Not sure why it makes a difference, really.

Should I be disappointed to see that you are still stupid.

"

You essentially said he didn't have a point, to what I responded:

"

His point remains valid.Islamists might threaten to kill you if you do not convert to Islam in your lifetime.Christ promises to murder you circa His second coming if you do not accept Him as your Lord and saviour.

Would you be so kind as to illuminate the transcendent difference between the two attitudes?

"

You then replied:

"

Would you be so kind to confirm if there is an afterlife in which you can be killed?

Also it's not murder in the afterlife in Christianity, it's actually eternal life in hell.So you are really of point, here.

And there is a vast difference in instructing followers to kill all infidels in this life. as opposed to an afterlife.

"

Can you not see the sequence of events?

The Op is no addressing Christian views, that's for another thread.

Indeed. So why did you reply in the way that you chose to reply?

Because I called him stupid for trying to make this post an equivalence to Christian Ideals, Which is not my concern and has nothing to do with the Op. That's why I responded.

If you wish to continue down that path so be it, but I will not respond.

At 7/19/2016 4:16:58 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:The community surrounding Mohammed was persecuted for about a decade, and they endured this persecution peacefully. Eventually the persecution became violent, and they left to settle somewhere else. Those who had run them off still warred with this community. It was determined that fighting in self defense was ok.

These groups were warring against Mohammed and his followers, which is why you find these scriptures.

No, Muslims are not supposed to persecute Christians and Jews, they are supposed to protect them. Historically, the taxes imposed on this groups by Caliphates of the Ummah were used even to aid in maintaining the churches of those who were taxed.

The Qur'an says that there can be no compulsion in religion and that violence is only justifiable if you are being persecuted violently for your religion. Even then, it is a matter of choice, and you can peacefully resist as well.

These scriptures look bad when taken out of context, but context reveals a great deal more.

Admirable attempt to justify the verses, I can sort of understand your point. And you are right, when taken out of context do look bad or seem dangerous, I just wish that the radical Muslims could see that.

See, that sounds very different when translated.

When you say, "radical muslim", there is a lot of baggage in that understanding. In Arabic, "muslim" means "one who submits to God".

It is not always a bad thing to be radical about submitting to God. Radical has to do with being different from the ordinary. If you look at Jesus, was this not a man who was very radical about submitting to God? It sure can be seen that way.

Radical Islam is not really the enemy. I don't usually agree with American pseudo-liberals on their idea of political correct speech, but they are right to distance themselves from making this the enemy. It's very dangerous, and it doesn't translate well into other languages.

You use a very ambiguous language, on the one hand understanding what I mean by saying radical Muslim's, who by your standards take the Quran out of context, and on the other trying hard to justify radicalism.

My issue is how we can educate Muslims to stop them taking verses out of context and how we can identify those that do.

You see, it becomes a very serious issue when Muslims who have been radicalized come to the west and commit atrocities against the west, simply because they take verses out of context, and in turn take innocent peoples lives.

I'm not pointing any fingers towards you here, I'm just trying to get a better understanding.

At 7/19/2016 3:52:28 PM, johnlubba wrote:Why are there verses which state to kill all infidels in the Quran,How does this equate to a religion of peace?

THERE ISNT. PLEASE PROVIDE ONLY 1 VERSE. accusing without proof is lame.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

yeah first before u quoting something what its context ha? the name of chater 8 is "The Spoils of War". from its name u should know its about some war. this chapter talks about battle of Badr which the muslims were attacked by the pagans and were outnumbered 1 to 3. they had to defend themselves. amazing u guys never read its context but u have to take 1 verse out of a long chapter and become a scholar of Islam. please come with other verses lets see how the media brainwashed u so far.