Rest/work with various activities question (Read 1193 times)

heather85

posted: 1/24/2012 at 1:49 PMmodified: 1/24/2012 at 1:50 PM

Okay, so you can run every day.

Full body strength training, you need a day of rest in between.

How do other activities like rock climbing, and pilates, and yoga fall into this. I have been using rock climbing as one of my strength workouts, but should I not and do a strength workout later that day or the next day? It doesn't make me sore, but I know that's not the measure of a workout. I don't tend to get sore. Should pilates take the place of a strength workout or can it be done in addition - same day or next.

I'm finding mixed answers online.

I did a pilates class and I felt it in my abs, but otherwise it felt more like stretching than weight training, right down to being near falling asleep at the end. But then, I'm fairly strong and horribly, horribly inflexible. My friend who is more flexible and weaker feels the opposite. (Her and all my flexible friends getting injured when I didn't provided my excuse to ignore flexibility for ages, but as I can't run much now, might as well give it all a chance!)

vegefrog

posted: 1/24/2012 at 5:09 PM

Personally, I don't think classes like Pilates or full body workouts like climbing count as strength workouts. I mean, they do work your muscles but it's not the same as weight lifting where each move is focused directly on one muscle group.

I run 5-6 days a week, do a Centergy class(yoga/pilates/tai-chi) on T/Th and free weights M/T/W/Th (switching muscle groups every other day so that each gets hit 2x a week)

Personally, I don't think classes like Pilates or full body workouts like climbing count as strength workouts. I mean, they do work your muscles but it's not the same as weight lifting where each move is focused directly on one muscle group.

Pretty much +1 to this. IMHO, pilates and yoga = stretching. (And I say this as someone who loves pilates). I feel taxed at the end of it. Like I may not want to do a sit up for a few days, but not like I feel at the end of a good weight lifting session.

“What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight – it’s the fight in the dog. – Dwight D. Eisenhower

If you monitor your aerobic speed, this will clue you in to how your training load is working for you. All your running, yoga, yardwork, life stress, and walking is your training load. If you ad (e.g.) weightlifting into your regimen, and your aerobic speed keeps improving--then you're probably handling the extra load fine. If your aerobic speed starts going south, then probably not. Everyone has a tipping point. Sometimes it's an event in your life that raises your stress levels through the roof---this can make your aerobic speed regress---if you don't cut back on running. The best way to monitor your aerobic speed is with a run that's deep into your aerobic, fat-burning range like an MAF test or something between 65-70% MHR. So, experiment with whatever new exercise or training method you want, but monitor your aerobic speed. Potential injury and overtraining will generally show up there first. That's been my experience.

If you monitor your aerobic speed, this will clue you in to how your training load is working for you. All your running, yoga, yardwork, life stress, and walking is your training load. If you ad (e.g.) weightlifting into your regimen, and your aerobic speed keeps improving--then you're probably handling the extra load fine. If your aerobic speed starts going south, then probably not. Everyone has a tipping point. Sometimes it's an event in your life that raises your stress levels through the roof---this can make your aerobic speed regress---if you don't cut back on running. The best way to monitor your aerobic speed is with a run that's deep into your aerobic, fat-burning range like an MAF test or something between 65-70% MHR. So, experiment with whatever new exercise or training method you want, but monitor your aerobic speed. Potential injury and overtraining will generally show up there first. That's been my experience.

--Jimmy

Big problem. Already overtrained. Very overtrained. Least best I can figure. Was running for a long time 80-100 miles a week. Then 70-85 slower. Then my body said no way a month ago and dropped down to 30-45 miles through December, slower. Still wasn't better, and now--- exactly 3 months since last week to top 90 miles, I barely run 25 miles a week this month and it's all even slower and it all sucks. Running is not the loved activity it has been for 14 years for me and the more I do the worse this seems to get, in contrast of getting into shape. This will be my first year since my first year running that I don't easily top 2000 miles, so far as I can tell. So I'm trying different activities. But monitoring it by running... no good because running never feels good and is so slow as to not be running if I slow down anymore - not because my heart rate but because my legs just feel like an empty death when I try to run. I did this purely on slow, aerobic running, and now that's what seems to bother it and make it worse (defined now, unfortunately, as my possible speed for 5 miles dropping below 12:15 per mile, a few months after I could run under 9 minutes a mile in the marathon), more anaerobic stuff like weights doesn't. Hence what I'm doing now, trying new things and trying not to be completely miserable that my body doesn't feel like mine anymore.

And, of course, avoid getting even more overweight since I was 30 lb overweight with all the running I was doing last year - so need to do something to prevent outright obesity and diet a lot. (Especially since I used to gain weight all over, but the last couple years it only seems to go to my stomach. yuck.)

Heather, I'm guessing you've talked to your doctor about this? I know very little about this kind of thing, but I'd be concerned about what sounds like a combination of less running ability and change in metabolism. If it were me I'd be worried about something like anemia or diabetes.

Big problem. Already overtrained. Very overtrained. Least best I can figure. Was running for a long time 80-100 miles a week. Then 70-85 slower. Then my body said no way a month ago and dropped down to 30-45 miles through December, slower. Still wasn't better, and now--- exactly 3 months since last week to top 90 miles, I barely run 25 miles a week this month and it's all even slower and it all sucks. Running is not the loved activity it has been for 14 years for me and the more I do the worse this seems to get, in contrast of getting into shape. This will be my first year since my first year running that I don't easily top 2000 miles, so far as I can tell. So I'm trying different activities. But monitoring it by running... no good because running never feels good and is so slow as to not be running if I slow down anymore - not because my heart rate but because my legs just feel like an empty death when I try to run. I did this purely on slow, aerobic running, and now that's what seems to bother it and make it worse (defined now, unfortunately, as my possible speed for 5 miles dropping below 12:15 per mile, a few months after I could run under 9 minutes a mile in the marathon), more anaerobic stuff like weights doesn't. Hence what I'm doing now, trying new things and trying not to be completely miserable that my body doesn't feel like mine anymore.

And, of course, avoid getting even more overweight since I was 30 lb overweight with all the running I was doing last year - so need to do something to prevent outright obesity and diet a lot. (Especially since I used to gain weight all over, but the last couple years it only seems to go to my stomach. yuck.)

If you're deeply overtrained, substituting one type of systemic, full-aerobic system stress (running) for another (rock climbing) might not get you the rest you need to recover.

I know there's stress to not lose fitness--but if you're deeply overtrained, you've already lost fitness. Actually giving yourself rest--and proper nutrition--is more important than trying to stay as active as possible and might well contribute to getting your fitness back more quickly. Have you considered taking a week or two off of *everything* strenuous to see if that makes you bounce back? It might do a lot for your enthusiasm, too, when you return from it.

To echo what ClevelandMark said, I would also be worried about anemia, diabetes, or thyroid issues--hope none of them are the case, though. Hope all goes well.

"When a person trains once, nothing happens. When a person forces himself to do a thing a hundred or a thousand times, then he certainly has developed in more ways than physical. Is it raining? That doesn't matter. Am I tired? That doesn't matter, either. Then willpower will be no problem." Emil Zatopek

Big problem. Already overtrained. Very overtrained. Least best I can figure. Was running for a long time 80-100 miles a week. Then 70-85 slower. Then my body said no way a month ago and dropped down to 30-45 miles through December, slower. Still wasn't better, and now--- exactly 3 months since last week to top 90 miles, I barely run 25 miles a week this month and it's all even slower and it all sucks. Running is not the loved activity it has been for 14 years for me and the more I do the worse this seems to get, in contrast of getting into shape. This will be my first year since my first year running that I don't easily top 2000 miles, so far as I can tell. So I'm trying different activities. But monitoring it by running... no good because running never feels good and is so slow as to not be running if I slow down anymore - not because my heart rate but because my legs just feel like an empty death when I try to run. I did this purely on slow, aerobic running, and now that's what seems to bother it and make it worse (defined now, unfortunately, as my possible speed for 5 miles dropping below 12:15 per mile, a few months after I could run under 9 minutes a mile in the marathon), more anaerobic stuff like weights doesn't. Hence what I'm doing now, trying new things and trying not to be completely miserable that my body doesn't feel like mine anymore.

And, of course, avoid getting even more overweight since I was 30 lb overweight with all the running I was doing last year - so need to do something to prevent outright obesity and diet a lot. (Especially since I used to gain weight all over, but the last couple years it only seems to go to my stomach. yuck.)

I don't have a lot of time in the next few days but this I had to jump in.

Are you actually saying you were running about 12-minute pace but still doing 80-100MPW? Did I get this right? THIS, my friend, is THE very thing I've been fighting to make a point. You've got to cap your long run by time!! Why 20-mile run? If it takes 3 or 4 hours to do it, it should NOT be done week in week out. Muscular trauma is a hell of a lot more than most people realize and that really pushes your recovery period way backwards. You might say but it makes sense to do 20-miler if you want to go for a 26-miler. ABSOLUTELY!! BUT YOU'RE NOT READY FOR IT THEN!! Anybody can push his/her body to do some amazing training plan. But most likely it's not the best suited plan for that person. You've GOT to think about your own background and fitness level.

It's actually a good topic; you have to consider what energy system you're stimulating. I WOULD count things like rock-climbing as a strength training. You do that one time and your arms will suffer from muscle soreness--that's why you worked on your arm muscles. So that has nothing to do with, say, aerobic capacity development. Usually muscle stuff (weight lifting, sprinting training, plyometrics, rock-climbing I guess...) would USUALLY take 48 hours to recover. EASY aerobic exercise can be repeated within 24 hours UNLESS that particular workout actually does involve muscular strengthening. You CAN train your body to recover quicker depending on the exercise--that's why most elite runners train twice a day--but even then, it's USUALLY not back-to-back hard aerobic exercise; in other words, one is considerably easier than the other. Some people MAY take more than generally accepted time frame--some people may take 2 or 3 easy days in between instead of 1. But the point is; different energy system/metabolism takes different length to recover; and, on the top of that, different people take different rate of recovery. But USUALLY you can assume if you couldn't recover in 2 days, that probably means you pushed too hard.

It seems you had asked more than just this but I wanted to jump in and point out this.

First, get tested for the simple stuff like anemia and have them add on serum ferritin....if you are under 25 I'd really ask about supplementing.
Second, if you really believe you are over-trained, you need to suck it up and stop running for awhile. Some will say you can keep running a little and that may be true, but it's hard for dedicated runners to reduce it to the level they need to so I say stop and just keep on with light cross-training. I'd even say the climbing is ok if it doesn't really tire you by the time you finish.
Will you lose fitness? Yes and no. Overtraining is sinister in that the more you train, the worse off you are. You actually take yourself backwards, which is exactly what you describe. By taking, say, a month off, yes when you come back you will be slower at first. And it will suck. But if it allows your body to reset and respond positively to training, by early/mid summer you could be in much better shape than before you took time off.
Keep a long-term perspective. Do what is best for you in the long term.
In the summer of 2005 I was training very hard yet I found my fitness slipping backward. Finally, around the first of August I completely gave up and stopped training...completely. I had also found out that I was anemic and started taking liquid iron supplements. I did not start running again until mid-September, and I felt horrible the first couple weeks. I eased back into it and did not push hard workouts. After only a few weeks of real training I toed the line for the Chicago Marathon, which I had entered with the original intent of running ~2:22 (before I over-trained I was well short of that shape however, probably closer to 2:26-2:27). Lacking any real training I was conservative and set out to pace a buddy on sub-6 pace (2:37), which I still felt was horribly optimistic and that I'd likely drop out. A funny thing happened...I ended up feeling better than I had in months during that race and ran 2:36...not stellar or what I'd wanted but for someone who could not finish a 16-miler a couple months prior I was pleased.
I jumped back into training immediately and was able to handle my highest workloads ever, and all my PRs were set the following spring/summer.
If I'd continued the downward spiral and got caught up in losing fitness, what would have been accomplished? It was very hard to give up and stop...don't get me wrong...sometimes runners are too driven.
Good luck...

"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

heather85

posted: 1/25/2012 at 12:10 PM

Nobby, no, I've slowed down A LOT since this started happening. I felt great back then. Felt like I could run more every week and stopped arbitrarily. Ugh. After this started I started running slower and slower and less and less. I had carried that same mileage before without a problem; it wasn't new to me. But other stuff was, like doing it 30 lb heavier and with some stress going on.

I don't have a lot of time in the next few days but this I had to jump in.

Are you actually saying you were running about 12-minute pace but still doing 80-100MPW? Did I get this right? THIS, my friend, is THE very thing I've been fighting to make a point. You've got to cap your long run by time!! Why 20-mile run? If it takes 3 or 4 hours to do it, it should NOT be done week in week out. Muscular trauma is a hell of a lot more than most people realize and that really pushes your recovery period way backwards. You might say but it makes sense to do 20-miler if you want to go for a 26-miler. ABSOLUTELY!! BUT YOU'RE NOT READY FOR IT THEN!! Anybody can push his/her body to do some amazing training plan. But most likely it's not the best suited plan for that person. You've GOT to think about your own background and fitness level.

It's actually a good topic; you have to consider what energy system you're stimulating. I WOULD count things like rock-climbing as a strength training. You do that one time and your arms will suffer from muscle soreness--that's why you worked on your arm muscles. So that has nothing to do with, say, aerobic capacity development. Usually muscle stuff (weight lifting, sprinting training, plyometrics, rock-climbing I guess...) would USUALLY take 48 hours to recover. EASY aerobic exercise can be repeated within 24 hours UNLESS that particular workout actually does involve muscular strengthening. You CAN train your body to recover quicker depending on the exercise--that's why most elite runners train twice a day--but even then, it's USUALLY not back-to-back hard aerobic exercise; in other words, one is considerably easier than the other. Some people MAY take more than generally accepted time frame--some people may take 2 or 3 easy days in between instead of 1. But the point is; different energy system/metabolism takes different length to recover; and, on the top of that, different people take different rate of recovery. But USUALLY you can assume if you couldn't recover in 2 days, that probably means you pushed too hard.

It seems you had asked more than just this but I wanted to jump in and point out this.

heather85

posted: 1/25/2012 at 12:17 PM

I thought I could run a small percentage of what I used to run. I do keep cutting it back more and more. I want to avoid even more obesity and, you know, being insane.

I was already on B-12 injections and liquid iron supplementation before this started because my body doesn't absorb those vitamins right. I got put on a thiamin and vitamin D supplement after this now too, and got my thyroid medication dosed upwards. The doctor is watching it and a few other things.

First, get tested for the simple stuff like anemia and have them add on serum ferritin....if you are under 25 I'd really ask about supplementing. Second, if you really believe you are over-trained, you need to suck it up and stop running for awhile. Some will say you can keep running a little and that may be true, but it's hard for dedicated runners to reduce it to the level they need to so I say stop and just keep on with light cross-training. I'd even say the climbing is ok if it doesn't really tire you by the time you finish. Will you lose fitness? Yes and no. Overtraining is sinister in that the more you train, the worse off you are. You actually take yourself backwards, which is exactly what you describe. By taking, say, a month off, yes when you come back you will be slower at first. And it will suck. But if it allows your body to reset and respond positively to training, by early/mid summer you could be in much better shape than before you took time off. Keep a long-term perspective. Do what is best for you in the long term. In the summer of 2005 I was training very hard yet I found my fitness slipping backward. Finally, around the first of August I completely gave up and stopped training...completely. I had also found out that I was anemic and started taking liquid iron supplements. I did not start running again until mid-September, and I felt horrible the first couple weeks. I eased back into it and did not push hard workouts. After only a few weeks of real training I toed the line for the Chicago Marathon, which I had entered with the original intent of running ~2:22 (before I over-trained I was well short of that shape however, probably closer to 2:26-2:27). Lacking any real training I was conservative and set out to pace a buddy on sub-6 pace (2:37), which I still felt was horribly optimistic and that I'd likely drop out. A funny thing happened...I ended up feeling better than I had in months during that race and ran 2:36...not stellar or what I'd wanted but for someone who could not finish a 16-miler a couple months prior I was pleased. I jumped back into training immediately and was able to handle my highest workloads ever, and all my PRs were set the following spring/summer. If I'd continued the downward spiral and got caught up in losing fitness, what would have been accomplished? It was very hard to give up and stop...don't get me wrong...sometimes runners are too driven. Good luck...

If you're deeply overtrained, substituting one type of systemic, full-aerobic system stress (running) for another (rock climbing) might not get you the rest you need to recover.

I know there's stress to not lose fitness--but if you're deeply overtrained, you've already lost fitness. Actually giving yourself rest--and proper nutrition--is more important than trying to stay as active as possible and might well contribute to getting your fitness back more quickly. Have you considered taking a week or two off of *everything* strenuous to see if that makes you bounce back? It might do a lot for your enthusiasm, too, when you return from it.

To echo what ClevelandMark said, I would also be worried about anemia, diabetes, or thyroid issues--hope none of them are the case, though. Hope all goes well.

I tried t a week off after I DNF'ed my race, and 5 days back in October when it first started before I tried to push through. Didn't fix it.

I don't mean to say I'm not getting better. I am not getting sick all the time anymore like I was for a while (bugs that no one else but my immunocompromised father was getting sick from; not even my 3 year old.) and was feeling bad all day, now only running feels bad. I would guess I am improving, just at a snail's pace.

I didn't think of rock climbing as aerobic. I don't feel like I'm doing anything aerobic when I do it. It feels more like strength trainign.

Thanks for your comment. You're right the mental part of taking off is a huge barrier. I'm trying to find the best balance I can and am trying to take off even more than my body is just forcing me - I just should have done it back in October, instead of doing 7 more marathons after I started feeling it.

Heather, I'm guessing you've talked to your doctor about this? I know very little about this kind of thing, but I'd be concerned about what sounds like a combination of less running ability and change in metabolism. If it were me I'd be worried about something like anemia or diabetes.

I've go to the doctor regularly. I have hypothyroidism and some absorbency issues that I supplement for. He thinks I need to run less. But he thought that before this too, said I needed to if I wanted to lose weight.

Personally, I don't think classes like Pilates or full body workouts like climbing count as strength workouts. I mean, they do work your muscles but it's not the same as weight lifting where each move is focused directly on one muscle group.

Thanks. I was thinking about it like this, but didn't want to cause problems. Since pilates made me feel relaxed and sleepy, I thought maybe doing it before bed each night make might me start to sleep better again but didn't want to do too much.

vegefrog

posted: 1/25/2012 at 4:03 PMmodified: 1/25/2012 at 4:04 PM

My pilates class is in the evenings and it relaxes me and helps me to wind down after the day. After running/weights/spin classes I feel energetic and hyped, but it's the opposite for pilates. I bet you will be ok adding it to your routine and doing it nightly. I love that it stretches and loosens up all my muscles. I hope it does help you sleep better and that you can find a balance to all of this that works for you and makes you happy.