Weekend Roundup: the cast talks love, manipulation, and power in season 4

Sansa Stark is “like a sponge,” according to Sophie Turner in Radio Times. “She’s absorbing everything she’s learned from Cersei and Margaery. She’s put on the façade of her former self for this past year and she’s finally going to drop that and begin to manipulate some people.” The actress says that this season, Sansa will be learning “how to use her femininity to get what she wants, seduce…”

Jaime and Brienne are a popular pairing in the Game of Thrones fandom, and according to Gwendoline Christie in this Zap2it interview, she ships them too. Christie explains, “What I love about the relationship is that it’s so rare to see a man and woman have a relationship that is born out of a begrudging respect for each other, and it’s about that respect for each other, and the bond and the friendship that they have; that it’s not sexually motivated.[…] It’s just out of the companionship and their admiration for each other.”

It looks like Isaac Hempstead-Wright is tired of being one of the good guys on Game of Thrones, telling Zap2it in a new interview that he’d like to become a villain. The actor also says of Bran’s growing abilities, “I think the sight is probably the coolest one, because being able to see into the past and future and – I don’t know if Bran can necessarily change it – but being able to see it and probably stay your path to have a future you wish is like the ultimate superpower. […] Bran can do anything with that.”

Pedro Pascal is featured in the New York Times, chatting about his new role as Oberyn Martell and sharing the risks of filming fight scenes. The actor reports, “The worst of it was whacking myself with my own prop. I busted up my knees a lot trying to spin the thing from my left to my right. I whacked myself in the face several times. But I was never hurt by another actor or fight choreographer.”

Who would Thomas Brodie-Sangster want to play if he weren’t Jojen Reed? “I think Joffrey would be quite fun, a nasty, nasty person,” the actor says in The Independent. On the show’s habit of cutting down cast regulars in a ruthless fashion every season, Brodie-Sangster says, “You have to be uncomfortable. You can’t think that everything will be okay and often it isn’t, and that’s what makes it exciting to read it and to watch, is that you don’t know what’s going to happen to your favorite characters.”

Rose Leslie gives fans insight into Ygritte’s mindset after last season’s betrayal at Jon Snow’s hands, in an EW interview. “She feels like a fool and wants to make him pay,” the actress says. As for shooting Jon full of arrows in the season finale, Leslie says to EW, “In my mind, she wasn’t shooting to kill him. She wasn’t shooting to stop him. I think she was shooting to hurt him. That he wasn’t going to get away with leaving without any consequences. She’s in love with him and can’t bring herself to kill him. She could have killed him in one fell swoop with an arrow through the heart if she wanted to.”

At the New York City Game of Thrones premiere, Zap2it asked the cast why their characters are the ones to watch this year. Visit Zap2it to watch the video and discover what Lena Headey, John Bradley, Dean-Charles Chapman, Hannah Murray, Kristofer Hivju, Michael McElhatton, Liam Cunningham, and many more cast members had to say about what’s in store for their characters in season 4.

hmm, very interesting. In the interview, Liam Cunningham says that Stannis has no army, and needs to find a way of raising one. This implies to me that the Iron Bank of Braavos will actually fund Stannis after all, this season. I thought they would reject him outright.

Is it? I think Jojen’s green dreams and what he’s told Bran thus far are pretty much on par with that. I don’t think he’s spoiled much, especially since in the books we don’t even have a completely concrete idea of what Bran can do yet

I wonder if they’re going to completely heighten the Petyr/Alayne dynamic? I hope it’s not too sexualized bc I know D&D really like their relationship, but I hope it stays in character is all… Cause it is effed up anyways, I just don’t want them warping Sansa’s character since she’s still very much an innocent…?

I’ve been saying that Bran is going to be a villain for years–at the WinterIsComing moot in NYC back in 2010, I first shared my “Bran is a bad guy” theory and got a few nods in possible agreement, a few “no ways” and almost got a drink in my face. Then ADWD came out and Bran got super creepy. I still think most of the Lannisters are going to end up good guys and the Starks are almost all on their way to being bad guys…let’s see what the future brings.

To me, half the fun of Arya’s arc is “the making of a psychopath” (watching how she goes from feisty child to cold-blooded killer, so subtly that neither she nor the reader realizes it until too late), and the ONLY fun in Bran’s arc is “the making of a supervillain” (watching how Bran goes from noble-hearted future warrior to increasingly bitter and entitled cripple, to using his burgeoning powers for evil (possessing Hodor was evil, sorry…the first rule of white magic is don’t take away free will)…and now turning into a tree and cavorting with the Children of the Forest (whom I imagine to have wide mouths with sharky rows of tiny teeth))…mark my words, Bran is going to become King of the White Walkers, and Dany will slay him good!

I’d have to agree with you. For me, it was the moment Melisandre saw the vision of the wooden man and the wolf boy that did it. She asked herself if he (bloodraven) was the great other but shot it down saying she wouldn’t be able to look at him and later says they must be his champions as Stannis is Rhollar’s. GRRM is notorious for completely changing how we all feel about characters and he never adds anything for fluff. Everything matters in these books and everything about Bran is tending toward evil. SO many delicious theories can be formulated from this observation. It’s rather exciting!

And, I’ve never really trusted the idea of the children being wholly good. Don’t forget, Bran and company may also have eaten human flesh that cold hands brought them when traveling north. It could potentially be Dany vs. Bran and Bran wargs into a dragon making it dragon vs. dragon which in a recent interview GRRM stated is a way to kill dragons.

I do and don’t like it. I like it because it makes things interesting and really makes you have to pick a side in the conflict. I don’t like it for the same reason as you. I really like a lot of characters but I don’t want to have to pick a side sometimes. But, it’s not out of question for there to be a coming together of main characters but where they don’t join up, they fight even more. This would further weaken the seven kingdoms before the white walkers come in full force which I think is GRRM’s plan seeing as how he is taking so long in directly showing the strength of the others. This is all purely speculation and I could be very, very wrong, but it is just so fun to guess at what comes next in these books.

For what it’s worth ran over at westeros gave an informal meh review for the first three episode, including episode two. Sort cryptic, said the unsullied will love it, which probably means they changed something major.

He’s been meh on the show since Season 1, not surprising. He’s as hardcore a book purist as you can get, beyond all reason really. I’m willing to bet that the reviews from all the actual professional critics will be overwhelmingly positive.

Not to mention that all the reviews of Episode 1 have been very positive so far, and that Episode 2 is bound to be even better.

house snow:
For what it’s worth ran over at westeros gave an informal meh review for the first three episode, including episode two.Sort cryptic, said the unsullied will love it, which probably means they changed something major.

Where at? I’ve looked everywhere and never found his review. Not that I really care about his opinions anyways. Mostly all they do over westeros.org is bitch about changes big or small.

Remember Bran’s initial “fly or die” dream? When he looked through the light and saw the true heart of winter, and it terrified him? Isn’t it weird that it’s NEVER BEEN MENTIONED AGAIN? It’s because he saw himself, I’m tellin’ ya!

This. I was glad he answered my prompting though. I didn’t want to debate him or anything because it’s his turf and I try to be friendly over on Westeros. But I didn’t expect him to like it at all. Professional critics on the other hand will like it the same as always.

I don’t know how you can stand it over there. The atmosphere is fucking toxic, and there’s people that seemingly spend every waking moment criticising the show for the silliest and most trivial reasons. Bravo for trying to promote reasonable, sane discussion I suppose.

house snow:
For what it’s worth ran over at westeros gave an informal meh review for the first three episode, including episode two.Sort cryptic, said the unsullied will love it, which probably means they changed something major.

So far, I’ve not agreed with any Westeros reviews of the show, so that doesn’t bother me too much.

It’s toxic sometimes but there’s also good speculation there (if you know where to look). It’s also formatted better than wicnet (no offense wicnet but you’re not a forum). I don’t mind it so much and since I like the show, I like to defend the show.

Especially when it would have been so easy to just not burn Mance in the first place. Why the hell did GrrM do that? The only thing I can think of is that maybe he’d read the burning chapter to audiences before he decided to keep Mance alive and then retconned it.

If you believe that, I’ve got a fantastic estate property to sell you, in the Riverlands. Have you heard of Harrenhal? It has 35 hearths! ; )

No, seriously, though – a lot of people miss it the first time they read through ADWD. Varys doesn’t always tell the truth, even to the people he is about to kill. Shocking, I know. Go back and reread Tyrion’s chapters that feature Illyrio. Illyrio may have made his fortunes running cons with Varys, but he isn’t as good at hiding his motives.

I m not worried about the review, well blurb really. I was a little surprised because it sounds like episode one was pretty loyal to the source material and just based on preview episode two seems to have a lot of cannon stuff. Just figured his comment on the unsullied liking meant that they changed something hardcore fans would think important. Granted this fan base gets riled up over peaches, so it might no mean much

I’m reading it on my Kindle now, its the same thing Tyrion meets Illyrio and then he is sent to meet Griif and Young Griff who are heading for Dany. I guess he might be viewed as fake because Illyrio had a wife with blond hair, but the Young Griff kid has the Targ features with the silver hair and purple eyes.

Jeb:
Does anyone have a link to this review. Curious, but can’t find it…

Not really a review. In the Dan and Dave get renewed fur two season thread, someone asked about the first three episodes and he said they were okay “no baelor, Blackwater, or now watch has ended” said it was fine, that the unsullied will like it. He was somewhat responding to sepinwall calling 2 phenomenal in part to being like Blackwater.

Yeah, he was just responding vaguely really. He’ll review when they come out. “Someone” was me btw (I feel the need to take credit for this sort of shit, mayhaps due to weakness of character). No matter how strongly I disagree with him on the show (and how much I REALLY disagree with Linda) its still kindof satisfying when he responds. Not as much as when Cogman does though.

No, it’s a twist inspired by historical events, as so much of ASOAIF is.

Take a dead prince/princess, especially one who died a violent death and whose body had not been found (or, as in ASAOIF’s case, was too disfigured for positive identification to be 100% certain); add a new regime that some/many people disliked and whose legitimacy was questionable; cook for a decade or two; add a dash of some powerful enemies of the current regime, whether foreign or domestic; you will get an impostor or multiple impostors trying to take over the throne, claiming to be the prince who was secretly saved.

Yeah, he was just responding vaguely really. He’ll review when they come out. “Someone” was me btw (I feel the need to take credit for this sort of shit, mayhaps due to weakness of character). No matter how strongly I disagree with him on the show (and how much I REALLY disagree with Linda) its still kindof satisfying when he responds. Not as much as when Cogman does though.

That’s cool. I’m surprised almost no professional reviews out yet. I guess there is an embargo, but I figure it would have been lifted by now. I’m not shocked they don’t like the show.they are early readers/soundboards for the book I think so they are probably more like traditional authors in regards to ” their” material.

In looking for Ran’s review at Westeros I found another poster answering questions about the first three episodes, starting in the recent March posts of the sticky Little Questions thread under General (GoT). Has anyone seen this?

There are some detailed spoilers which I probably should stop reading, but I keep going. The fun of GoT is often the adaptation choices they make. But when I finally see the episode, everything is less fun. The poster confirms how some things go down, if she/he’s telling the truth.

SPOILER FOR S4EP2 For one, the poster claims Dontos meets the same fate he does in the books. Some people suggested the idea that he could continue onto the Vale and also play the Marillion role there.

There are hints of future controversies for this board in Brienne and Jaime’s storyline and a good review for Reek.

I actually think they are proud to hate the series. Not that’s its perfect but I think it’s a matter of pride for them. I could be wrong, but they seem completely unsympathetic to the changes made due to the limitations of the adaptation. I wonder what George thinks of them disliking the series. I’m sure he likes it more than they do.

Enh disregard what I say. I just find it hard to forget that despite the acclaim the series has achieved, it is still not officially endorsed by ASOIAF’s most profound adherents.

Illyrio’s wife had silver hair. It has always been mentioned that the male line of Blackfyres ended, but nothing of the female line. The biggest hint at ‘Aegon’ being a Blackfyre is The Golden Company’s backing of him. The Golden Company was founded by a Blackfyre. They are famous for never breaking their contract. They laughed in Viserys’ face when he tried to hire them. But out of nowhere they break their contract with Myr to support ‘Aegon’. Why, because according to Illyrio: “Some contracts are writ in ink, others in blood. I will say no more.” That line sealed it for me. The boy is a Blackfyre.

There is no evidence in the text saying they are going to westeros because of Bittersteel. they are going back to westeros because they want to go home, and they broke their contracts for Dany not Griff. There is textual evidence that it is possible to sneak out an infant from the red keep like they smuggled a whole family out in the princess and the queen. I think he is the real deal until grrm himself proves me wrong.

The New York Daily News review should not be
counted, it’s only for the first episode and it’s fake. “All of this unfolds at a snail’s pace” My ass. Everyone said it was the best premiere by far and that it was well paced. It’s obvious since he didn’t talk about the Arya and Oberyn scene in detail. Maybe I’m wrong dunno.

After The Feast, Melisandre didn’t understand what she was seeing. The North is a complete mystery to her. She doesn’t know anything about the magic there: heart trees, children of the forest, green dreams, wargs, greenseers, etc. Don’t forget what that woods witch told Thoros during Arya’s chapter in ACoK. Their visions are influenced by the old gods and possibly being warned by Bloodraven.

On the Bran going dark thing: I agree with those theories. It’s suspicious that through the 1st three books he’s the only purely good character. Going back and reading the ADWD prologue really solidifies it for me. Varamyr talks about what a taboo it is among skinchangers to take another human’s body. In ASOS, Bran accidently wargs Hodor. In ADWD he starts doing it on purpose. Even if Jojen Paste isn’t true, there’s definitely darkness creeping in.

On Elio and Linda not liking the show: I’ve got to wonder if this is the resentment of people who liked a thing before it was cool. It can be very annoying when something you were into gets mainstream. I became a fan of Muse in 1999 or 2000 and now that they’re popular I just can’t be into them anymore. It’s petty and stupid, but it’s how I feel.
Of course, the popularity of the show is actually good for their site, so maybe they should be more charitable. After all, lots of people (like me) were introduced to the books via the show and end up on Westeros afterwards. More page clicks for them. Their ad revenue must have gone up since the show began.

Yes, that is just hipster mentality imo and it doesnt even make sense, why would you hate when something you love gets more popular and in turn helps the novels and the author who wrote them more popular ?

Presumably, she’ll make Littlefinger do something for her. I doubt she’ll bare boob or something any time soon, though. Just some nice words and no resisting to the Littlefinger creepiness. Which is just a step further than the books, and she’s going there anyway.

The problem with Elio and Linda (and any other book purist) is that the only scale they judge the show by is how close it is to the books, how many scenes made it, how big or small the changes are. How I look at it is just scene by scene, the quality of it all. They get all the big moments right in the show, and that’s really what matters. I can proudly say that I loved The Climb. It was a great episode (aside from the cliche final shot). I don’t care that they cut out the Horn of Winter scene, that episode was still damned good. It’s a really negative approach in my opinion- like looking for mistakes rather than looking at what the show does right. If don’t watch GoT looking for shit, you WILL find gold and you will enjoy the show a lot more. Even GRRM understands that.

Bran will do some dark stuff for sure, but I can’t see him becoming a full-blown antagonist/. For starters, that would mean Bloodraven has a very sinister plan, which is strange. All that we know of Bloodraven is that, while he will do anything to accomplish his goals, his moral center is quite upright. Unless, of course his time with the Children have changed him completely. I would love to read how he ended a tree in the first place.

Not only do they actively search for flaws, they only reluctantly discuss the strengths of the show that aren’t related to the books. According to them, any positive about the show is due to the books, any negative is due to D&D getting uppity.

The thing you you have to understand about them is that their system is inherently unfair: they approach the show ONLY in relation to faithfulness to the source material. This is fine, I’ve seen them admit that; but I’ve never seen them admit that it is extremely unfair to the show, to the point where their opinions can’t be taken seriously as reviews. It’s a shame too. They’re missing a great series.

David Thomas:I’ve been saying that Bran is going to be a villain for years–at the WinterIsComing moot in NYC back in 2010, I first shared my “Bran is a bad guy” theory and got a few nods in possible agreement, a few “no ways” and almost got a drink in my face. Then ADWD came out and Bran got super creepy. I still think most of the Lannisters are going to end up good guys and the Starks are almost all on their way to being bad guys…let’s see what the future brings.

To me, half the fun of Arya’s arc is “the making of a psychopath” (watching how she goes from feisty child to cold-blooded killer, so subtly that neither she nor the reader realizes it until too late), and the ONLY fun in Bran’s arc is “the making of a supervillain” (watching how Bran goes from noble-hearted future warrior to increasingly bitter and entitled cripple, to using his burgeoning powers for evil (possessing Hodor was evil, sorry…the first rule of white magic is don’t take away free will)…and now turning into a tree and cavorting with the Children of the Forest (whom I imagine to have wide mouths with sharky rows of tiny teeth))…mark my words, Bran is going to become King of the White Walkers, and Dany will slay him good!

ADOS was first named A Time For Wolves, so I believe you are quite far from the truth !! Have you thought of Dany being the great Evil and Bran being the savior ?? Who ever said The Others are the Evil ??

Ah, it’s you of the shipping gifs! I didn’t know you visited wicnet too. I mostly see you on AFOIAF. Yeah, Gwen is a sweetheart. Did you see the footage of her on Skype in front of the audience at GrrM’s theatre? She was talking about Selwyn Tarth and everything. She’s read up on it all.

It bothers me how people treat fAegon Blackfire as gospel. It’s far from confirmed and it wouldn’t serve any purpose whatsoever (who’d be able to tell? Who’ll know? Would it change anything in-world?).

There’s some evidence here and there (the statue and the sword on Ilirio’s manse, but that could be ilirio as a young water dancer, the red/black sign on the dragon’s inn as foreboding..), but most of it is based in suppositions about character motivations and wild speculation (Varis is a blackfyre out of the blue). And about the Golden Company motivation: Jon Connington, the staunchest Raeghar supporter, was a high officer for them for years. How come, if the bittersteel thing was still so important to them? Jon believes that Aegon is the real thing. How would the whole top brass of the golden company know the “true” identity of fAegon except him?

The GC are descendant of Blakfyre supporters, that’s true, but they just want their homes back. We even know they planned to go back with Viserys and the Dothraki at first, and with Aegon and Dany later, so they obviously have no problem with Targaryens anymore. Else, Jon Connington would never have joined them.

I’m not saying fAegon it’s impossible, but it’s definitely not gospel, and even if true, i bet we’ll have no confirmation either way, it’d only be an easter egg with no real purpose. The most interesting line in the whole fAegon evidence is “Which plan? … The fat man’s plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns?”, GRRM self-deprecating joke about his Meereen frustrations..

I think “Slow” and “Awesome” are not mutually exclusive personally…..
I’ve seen the premiere and while I did think it was possibly a bit slow at times, I thought it was awesome. A perfect ‘Welcome Back’ to the series with a lot of little gems I did not expect honestly!

Sometimes those “Slow” episodes are filled with important exposition and brilliant character moments.. Ya know? Some may argue the show is at its best when it takes its time and is not all about dragons and action… Although there was some action at the end of the episode that was fun!

One thing that I noticed was a sense of darkness just below the surface waiting to break out. It was more of a veil of tension that in my opinion was the perfect table setter for the upcoming season!

Some of the people over at westeros.org seem to have created this narrative where everyone on the show is great and mightily struggling against D&D’s tyranny and incompetence, who nonetheless manage to ruin the show by bringing them all down. An actor performed badly? It’s D&D’s writing. A scene was weaker in GRRM’s episode? D&D probably wrote. Stannis doesn’t get a poster? D&D are personally responsible.

The problem with Elio and Linda (and any other book purist) is that the only scale they judge the show by is how close it is to the books, how many scenes made it, how big or small the changes are. How I look at it is just scene by scene, the quality of it all. They get all the big moments right in the show, and that’s really what matters. I can proudly say that I loved The Climb. It was a great episode (aside from the cliche final shot). I don’t care that they cut out the Horn of Winter scene, that episode was still damned good. It’s a really negative approach in my opinion- like looking for mistakes rather than looking at what the show does right. If don’t watch GoT looking for shit, you WILL find gold and you will enjoy the show a lot more. Even GRRM understands that.

That’s what I dislike about them too. They don’t review the show as if it was its own thing.

“A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.” It’s Dany that interprets it as”mummers dragon” and people go from there to “false targaryen”. Prophecies tend to turn back on you and mean the opposite of what you think.

Either way, I’m not saying it won’t be true or not.. There’s some evidence, but it’s far from confirmed, and yet people treat it as gospel, and i’m willing to bet a tenner that we’ll never know for sure.

I agree 201 was a little better but it was nothing special either. They are two of my least favorite episodes of the series which is not surprising because the premiere on Thrones are usually very slow-paced.

“…He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon.”
“Is the dragon sign still there?” asked Podrick.
“No,” said Septon Meribald. “When the smith’s son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sign of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign to pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon’s heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust.”

Presumably, she’ll make Littlefinger do something for her. I doubt she’ll bare boob or something any time soon, though. Just some nice words and no resisting to the Littlefinger creepiness. Which is just a step further than the books, and she’s going there anyway.

Not really a step further if we’re talking about AFFC, where she’s not openly resisting his creepiness, since she’s seen previously in ASOS that openly resisting it (her reaction to his kiss) will get her nowhere.

I’m not sure what exactly she is referring to in this season, but I’m pretty sure she doesn’t mean seduce in the sense of “getting someone to have sex with you” , which wouldn’t make sense in this case, but “making someone fall for you”. Since she lists Margaery (as Sansa knows her in King’s Landing, not the Marg who tried to get Renly to have sex with her) as her role model in that respect, I assume it means acting sweet and ladylike but manipulating men by making them think you like them/they have a shot with you even if you don’t care about them. She’s seen Marg wrapping Joff around her little finger. Sophie says that Sansa will emulate Marg rather than Cersei.

The Sansa manipulation thing is surely with respect to fatty Mc-jester-knight. Which would for shiz make her more interesting to most. Maybe even backfire manipulation with Marillon (sp? singy dude), but I doubt with LF.

As gorgeous as Sophie may be, blatant sexuality and/or boob would totally ruin it for me.

“A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.”It’s Dany that interprets it as”mummers dragon” and people go from there to“false targaryen”. Prophecies tend to turn back on you and mean the opposite of what you think.

Either way, I’m not saying it won’t be true or not.. There’s some evidence, butit’s far from confirmed, and yet people treat it as gospel, and i’m willing to bet a tenner that we’ll never know for sure.

Dragon of cloth *is* a mummer’s dragon rather than a real one. Dany could have seen a real dragon, as Daemon II Blackfyre dreamed of a dragon being hatched but didn’t realize it referred to a young Targaryen. And then there’s Quaithe warning Dany about a mummer’s dragon.

Maybe Aegon is really not a Blackfyre — but that would mean he’s just a random boy of Valyrian descent. I don’t believe for a moment that he’s Rhaegar’s son. For starters, because his story of the switched babies is really implausible, and because Aegon’s story as set up reminds me lot of a number of impostor pretenders that claimed identities of dead princes and princesses, from Perkin Warbeck to False Dmitry, and gained wide support, in some cases even the throne for a short while, despite the implausibility of their stories.

Annara Snow: I’m not sure what exactly she is referring to in this season, but I’m pretty sure she doesn’t mean seduce in the sense of “getting someone to have sex with you” , which wouldn’t make sense in this case, but “making someone fall for you”. Since she lists Margaery (as Sansa knows her in King’s Landing, not the Marg who tried to get Renly to have sex with her) as her role model in that respect, I assume it means acting sweet and ladylike but manipulating men by making them think you like them/they have a shot with you even if you don’t care about them. She’s seen Marg wrapping Joff around her little finger. Sophie says that Sansa will emulate Marg rather than Cersei.

Good observation, Annara (though I could say that for any of your posts that come to mind; I find your comments here to be very insightful). Sophie’s description could easily cover the “Florian/Jonquil” stuff with Dontos, for instance.

I don’t get why there is such an outrage about Ran’s comments. From the dozens of rants here, I thought he must have really harshly criticized the episodes or complained about some change from the books, while in fact, he just answered to the question what the first three episodes were like by saying that they were okay, and that the second one wasn’t as good as Blackwater or Baelor (now that’s a high standard to set) as Sepinwall claimed, that it was mor like And Now His Watch Has Ended, but not quite as good.

Is it obligatory now for everyone to praise every episode as super-awesome and one of the best ever?

Annara Snow:
I don’t get why there is such an outrage about Ran’s comments. From the dozens of rants here, I thought he must have really harshly criticized the episodes or complained about some change from the books, while in fact, he just answered to the question what the first three episodes were like by saying that they were okay, and that the second one wasn’t as good as Blackwater or Baelor (now that’s a high standard to set) as Sepinwall claimed, that it was mor like And Now His Watch Has Ended, but not quite as good.

Is it obligatory now for everyone to praise every episode as super-awesome and one of the best ever?

Because, as others have pointed out, he only judges it based on faithfulness to the books. If that’s how he prefers to view the show, that’s his right. However it doesn’t make for a very good insightful review. Personally, I’m not angry at Ran’s reviews. I just don’t read them anymore.
I’m not seeing outrage and rants about Ran’s reviews, just criticism of them. Does everybody have to praise every Ran review as super-awesome?

Hardcore book purists completely baffle me. How can anyone not comprehend that it is an impossibility to translate everything in book-to-screen adaptations? That to “faithfully” render everything in the books would require 20 seasons of 24 episodes and be unendurably dull and confounding?

I just wrote something about adaptations, but my general point was that they are much more akin to translation than illustration–you have to suss out the meaning of your source and then render that in terms best suited to your medium.

D&D have done such a remarkable job, and while I miss some events/characters in the books, I can always read the damn books to experience them again. I won’t even go to westeros.org because I know I’d just get into fights with people, and while that holds a certain dim appeal, I’m not going to argue with the mountain for being made of rock.

They are tiny people who built their whole identity on their mastery and vast knowledge of a book series. Then the TV show makes changes to their Most Holy Books … and wait – what? It’s still both good and wildly popular? Maybe all their prowess is … useless?

HAAAAAAAATE TV SHOW!

ebevan91: That’s what I dislike about them too. They don’t review the show as if it was its own thing.

WeirwoodTreeHugger: Because, as others have pointed out, he only judges it based on faithfulness to the books.If that’s how he prefers to view the show, that’s his right.However it doesn’t make for a very good insightful review.Personally, I’m not angry at Ran’s reviews.I just don’t read them anymore.
I’m not seeing outrage and rants about Ran’s reviews, just criticism of them.Does everybody have to praise every Ran review as super-awesome?

It’s not a review, it’s just a short answer given to someone on another forum, and people aren’t saying it was an okay opinion to have – half of this thread has been about how upset people are with him and his opinion. There’s a huge middle ground between not praising something as super-awesome and being upset about something.

I’m not seeing this “outrage” you’re accusing everyone of either. Most of the comments about this subject have been about his reviews and book purists in general, not his thoughts on the first three episodes of Season 4. That’s what prompted it, of course, but that’s not the focus of the discussion.

It’s not that his opinion isn’t okay to have, it’s that that opinion reflects his attitude towards the show in general. I don’t have any hard feelings or anything, I’m just recognizing the fact that his reviews can be irrational about the show. That colors his opinion of everything that happens onscreen. I actually have a lot of respect for him: he started a huge fan site for the books, and he’s about as OG as it gets for ASOIAF. He’s honestly done some great work. I just can’t take his opinions of the show seriously.

Back on topic, it looks like Sansa’s going to start spreading her wings this season.

I’m mixed when it comes to their reviews honestly…
I think there is a definite place for a comparison between book and TV series and I’m okay with them taking a “book-first” approach to their reviews because of that. I actually enjoy their scene/ chapter breakdowns and other insight….

However, I think that should not be the only guide to how one measures the TV series. There are numerous other weekly reviews of GOT that take a series first approach and they are easy enough to find if that is what a person desires….

I guess if you go to Westeros to read reviews you know ahead of time what you will get… To be angry or annoyed by their perspective seems a bit silly and unnecessary to me.
*Shrug*

Not much new here. I expect most reviews to be more vague than usual. HBO only sent out 3 episodes to be screened and gave strict guidelines to critics, basically telling them not to even hint at any of the plot points.

No, I never claimed that she knew what she was seeing, but I know what she saw. She didn’t know it was Bran or Bloodraven. She doesn’t have to understand it for me to make something of it in the text. I merely said that her vision sparked the theory, which we are all discussing, for me. I’ve grown to try and analyze every vision because they all have mattered thus far. And as I said, I could be totally wrong but its fun to be wrong when it comes to A Song of Ice and Fire. In regard to what the wood witch told Thoros, it would make total sense if Bloodraven was trying to warn everyone. Yet its not Bloodraven that I’m claiming is bad (but he could be for we don’t know his intentions except making Bran see). We have seen Bran becoming an increasingly bitter person due to his paralysis, and that makes sense, yet he is doing things (warging into another human being, potentially ate human flesh, potentially eating his friends blood in a paste he soon comes to enjoy) that no good person does. I know I’m speaking in terms of black and white as far as good and evil are concerned so GRRM would disapprove. But Bran definitely is becoming a grey character.

It makes no difference, but it’s a lot cooler if he is a Blackfyre. Plus, if he is really Rhaegar’s son, then it takes some steam out of the intrigue of Jon potentially being Rhaegar’s only living child, and perhaps true heir. But in terms of it changing anything in universe, it won’t.

cosca
That is the curse of the writer. 90% of what makes a production work is written in the script. But when they are handing out the awards, well, who won the Emmy for Baelor?
OTOH audiences usually call bad writing, bad acting. (Peter Dinkledge earned his Emmy, but he’s blessed by the script-Gods too. )
The adapter is doubly cursed: the author usually thinks their baby has been butchered. Luckily GRRM has done TV, and D&D are uberfans; they all can write.

GRRM fans have had more than a decade with nothing to do but mine more meanings from every word of a complex and unfinished story; of course they are going to get precious when critical meanings are lost to simplify things for TV. That is why I consciously decided to have nothing to do with this series until the books were finished (no self-control dammit.)

As a huge fan of LotR, I knew I’d like this series, and I think I’m being overly generous when I give Peter Jackson three stars (two for trying for the animated movie, maybe two for the Hobbit). I’d have had misgivings if it was a Kubrick adaption (even if John Lennon was Sam.) That is what you get for reading the books first, what I didn’t want to happen with ASoIaF. (Not to mention waiting Six years for ADwD and that ending. Gods save us.)

I watched before I read and I’m glad I did. To me, Talisa was an improvement on Jayne Westerling, a real woman with an appropriately medieval calling, who could sneakily introduce us to Volantis, where they write Italianate Valaryian, and slaves have functional tattoos on their faces. I doubt anyone who read the books first would be with me on that.

As an unsullied, the good stuff is mindblowing, trying to keep abreast of the machinations, remember that one is Rast, figure how Theon fits into the Stark family. Easy to miss the lacklustre whore or sellsword three when you are not expecting Chataya or Chiggen.

Any reader with a pet theory about Ice being implicated in Joffrey’s death is going to be annoyed when D&D dash it. Readers already carry at least three hundred hurts from the additions, alterations, and omissions of the last thirty episodes. And where can they share their pain – only here and Westeros.

I think their opinions are more interesting, their ideas are better developed, even when they are going ‘meh’ to what to me must be gold (Preview screening, dude!). They really think it through, and don’t just accept ‘whatever is, is right’. It is not because they like it less – its because they’ve invested more.

jon isnt anyones “living child” ;)
I disagree though, I thought “haha i’ve thrown in a secret targaryen in at the end of the series to shake it up” was a cheap twist, but the upcoming war with Dany is good enough to make up for it
“haha the secret targaryen is actually a secret not a targaryen” is like all the fake deaths in affc combined

jon isnt anyones “living child” ;)
I disagree though, I thought “haha i’ve thrown in a secret targaryen in at the end of the series to shake it up” was a cheap twist, but the upcoming war with Dany is good enough to make up for it
“haha the secret targaryen is actually a secret not a targaryen” is like all the fake deaths in affc combined

No, it’s pretty obvious from the start, IMO, as well as foreshadowed – and it’s also, as I’ve pointed out before, based on many historical examples.

A dead prince has secretly been alive all along and comes to claim his inheritance… I can’t think of any historical examples of this actually happening, but on the other hand, an impostor pretender to the throne claiming to be a dead prince who has been secretly alive and gaining a lot of support among the enemies of the current regime, and possibly even gaining a throne, before meeting an untimely end? That’s happened lots of times.

the mummer’s dragon can mean varys’ targaryen, a.k.a aegon targaryen
a contract written in blood can mean the promise of blood which goes along with the promise of home
or it could refer to literally being written in blood, like Tyrion’s with the SS
and the dragon sign isn’t foreshadowing it’s world building, it’d be foreshadowing if there was a Blackfyre on Quiet Isle
and there are historical examples of everything and anyone, what does that prove, nothing

that’s like saying Mel’s fate will be the same as Rasputin’s because there have been religeous figures that slept with monarchs before

Agree to disagree then. I hate the idea of him being legit. I hated it from the moment Tyrion pieced it together. I hate the idea that Varys somehow switched a baby right from under Elia’s nose and somehow she didn’t recognize it. Blackfyre or not, ‘Aegon’ being a fake makes more sense and at least is tolerable.

Whispering Walda:cosca
That is the curse of the writer. 90% of what makes a production work is written in the script. But when they are handing out the awards, well, who won the Emmy for Baelor?
OTOH audiences usually call bad writing, bad acting.(Peter Dinkledge earned his Emmy, but he’s blessed by the script-Gods too. )
The adapter is doubly cursed: the author usually thinks their baby has been butchered. Luckily GRRM has done TV, and D&D are uberfans; they all can write.

GRRM fans have had more than a decade with nothing to do but mine more meanings from every word of a complex and unfinished story; of course they are going to get precious when critical meanings are lost to simplify things for TV.That is why I consciously decided to have nothing to do with this series until the books were finished (no self-control dammit.)

As a huge fan of LotR, I knew I’d like this series, and I think I’m being overly generous when I give Peter Jackson three stars (two for trying for the animated movie, maybe two for the Hobbit). I’d have had misgivings if it was a Kubrick adaption (even if John Lennon was Sam.) That is what you get for reading the books first, what I didn’t want to happen with ASoIaF. (Not to mention waiting Six years for ADwD and that ending. Gods save us.)

I watched before I read and I’m glad I did. To me, Talisa was an improvementon Jayne Westerling, a real woman with an appropriately medieval calling, who could sneakily introduce us to Volantis, where they write Italianate Valaryian, and slaves have functional tattoos on their faces.I doubt anyone who read the books first would be with me on that.

As an unsullied, the good stuff is mindblowing, trying to keep abreast of the machinations, remember that one is Rast, figure how Theon fits into the Stark family. Easy to miss the lacklustre whore or sellsword three when you are not expecting Chataya or Chiggen.

Any reader with a pet theory about Ice being implicated in Joffrey’s death is going to be annoyed when D&D dash it. Readers already carry at least three hundred hurts from the additions, alterations, and omissions of the last thirty episodes. And where can they share their pain – only here and Westeros.

I think their opinions are more interesting, their ideas are better developed, even when they are going ‘meh’ to what to me must be gold (Preview screening, dude!). They really think it through, and don’t just accept ‘whatever is, is right’.It is not because they like it less – its because they’ve invested more.

Or maybe they are just snobs so stop making them be anything else than they really are, also their ideas are more developed, dude please, that is snobbish at its purest form .

the mummer’s dragon can mean varys’targaryen, a.k.a aegon targaryen
a contract written in blood can mean the promise of blood which goes along with the promise of home
or it could refer to literally being written in blood, like Tyrion’s with the SS
and the dragon sign isn’t foreshadowing it’s world building, it’d be foreshadowing if there was a Blackfyre on Quiet Isle
and there are historical examples of everything and anyone, what does that prove, nothing

that’s like saying Mel’s fate will be the same as Rasputin’s because there have been religeous figures that slept with monarchs before

Rasputin was only rumoured to be sleeping with Alexandra. It’s much more likely that she put so much trust in him because she was a desperate mother and wanted to believe that he could save her son.

Furthermore, I didn’t say anything about anyone’s fate… Different impostors had different fates. Some of them managed to become monarchs for a while, some of them didn’t. I was just pointing out the fact that 1) this kind of a story (“the dead prince was secretly alive!”) had been used plenty of times, but was, most likely, never actually true, and 2) that didn’t stop people from believing what they wanted to believe or giving support to those pretenders because of their own interests or their hatred a current ruler or regime. Which I expect to happen in ASOAIF, too.

Simply put, this kind of a story was likely never true, because this kind of a story is incredibly far-fetched and unlikely and smacks of something someone came up after the fact in an attempt to use the circumstances to their advantage. And the story in this particular case is full of big holes. Such as the fact that Varys couldn’t have predicted that Aegon’s head was going to be smashed beyond recognition. If it had been Amory Lorch who went after Aegon, or some other Tywin crony who was a bit less violent or a bit smarter than the Mountain, he may have been killed in a completely different way. It’s just awfully convenient that Varys supposedly came up with this idea beforehand, and then the Mountain accommodated his plan by making Aegon’s body barely recognizable. It’s far more likely that Varys came up with the story after the fact, *because* Aegon’s body was beyond positive identification.
Furthermore, even if Elia had agreed to have her son saved but not her daughter, which I find hard to believe to begin with, I have a hard time seeing her clutching someone else’s baby to her chest while leaving her own daughter in another room.
Besides, finding a Targaryen looking baby in Pisswater may be possible, but finding a Targaryen looking child in Essos (where there are so many people of Valyrian descent) would be much easier and more probable.
(And speaking of point no. 2… I’m sure that finding a dark-haired, Dornish-looking child in Westeros would be easier than finding a silver-haired, Targaryen-looking infant. For all that Varys knew, it may have been Rhaenys who was going to end up with her head smashed.)

What is this Jojenpaste business? Why would Bran need to eat Jojen’s blood? Why is it more likely to be the blood of Jojen other than Weirwood sap, which is red like blood, and how it’s written, and makes total sense when it comes to the context of what they were doing? Sorry, I’ve never heard this one before and don’t follow its logic, if there is any. :)

it’s because Jojen said he had a vision and they won’t make the return journey… or something along those lines… and Meera is very solemn, and Bran notes that he hardly sees them round the cave anymore, so people concluded that Bran ate Jojen, although they forget about Meera

It came somewhat out of nowhere for me, but quite plausible considering all the baby/people-swapping that took place throughout the series (Mance & Gilly’s sons; Bran, Rickon & the Miller’s sons; L+R=J; Jeyne Poole & Arya, etc).

Plus what you said, this sort of things been happening throughout history.

Those have been floating around for a couple days in the comments section here. HBO isn’t confirming them, unfortunately, so we’ll have to wait for the HBO schedule to pop up with the titles as it has been to find out if the next title is legit.

Also, you know what’d be almost incomprehensibly weird? Episode 8’s title matches, and we’re all, “that’s that then,” and then Episode 9’s title matches too, and then Episode 10’s doesn’t. Random irrelevant thought process as I prepare for bed, but man, that’d be odd.

I honestly believe Bran is one of the major antagonists of the whole series. Him and Bloodraven are going to cause trouble with the white walkers, it is known. Jojen has been eaten for blood magic. I think Bran will have serious involvement in Jon Snow’s resurrection and possible destruction of the wall and in the Battle of Meereen.. ”you’ll never walk again Bran, the pale lips promised, but you will fly” with the reference to the white dragon cyvasse piece veined with red in the TWOW Tyrion sample… Coincidence? I think not.

James Rivers:
Random thought — does the tagline of “All Men Must Die” in part suggest a rimshot-type reference to LSH? Because, like OK, all **men** must die. But as Dany said last season, “but we are not men”

Also, waves at OITF

Except for the facts that Cat actually did die, and Beric was also resurrected, and Jon may eventually be in a season or two.

Nope, I think it’s simply a fancy way to tell the viewers: “We’re going to kill a lot of people this season”.

I don’t think it’s too far-fetched at all on GRRM’s part to have included him. These kinds of plots (the lost prince or princess come back to reclaim their inheritance) are pretty popular in European “urban legend” history.

Such as Kaspar Hauser, who people in 19th century Germany theorised was a lost prince of the House of Baden, or the Man in the Iron Mask that many in France insisted was a twin of the dauphin or something (I forget exactly), or the multiple women who claimed to be Princess Anatasia of the House of Romanov, the last Tsars of Russia… Even though all those turned out to most likely all be hoaxes, they legitimately captured public imagination in their eras.

So GRRM’s got historical precedents to riff on. And he does love playing with historical references in ASoIaF.

That is really interesting. There were a couple notable Brandon Starks… will it be Builder or Burner for this one? If indeed he’s goin sinister (which I tend to agree with)- I just had a thought. It seems possible that Bran, a cripple, learns from Bloodraven, a bastard, how to potentially resurrect, and maybe even warg Jon, a bastard. He could use Jon to find the Horn of Winter, which he knows is still out there. What if he brings down the wall and leads the Other south?
It would be like Martin to do such a thing, and nobody would expect it. Jon is the only one at this point who takes the threat of the Other seriously, and knows the overall situation in the north better than anybody. Just as he gives in to what’s happening in the realm- things turn for him. I know this is all crackpot, but if he does lead the Others south he will have vengeance on his mind and start with the Boltons. Does Bran eventually warg Jon to ride a dragon, (you will fly), battling Dany in the next Dance?
I have always assumed that if there must be a resurrection for Jon, that it would be the red priestess herself, and I feel that her involvement would lean towards fire. If she’s involved in his resurrection does he side with Dany? But where is Val in all this??? Holy shit, is she Bloodraven’s lover who always looked young??? Does Jon take her for his wife and become the next Night King?
If fAegon allies with Dorne and go to war in the south, taking out the Stormlands and the Reach, and potentially even take KL, do they end up battling Dany, before perhaps sueing for peace and joining forces when the common threat from the north advances? Or does fAegon stay true to (what may be) his Blackfyre bloodline, all bitter and bastardy as they are, and side with bastardy/cripply/all kinds of bitter Bloodraven/Bran? I can see Bloodraven still having no love for the Blackfyres, but also holding a grudge for whatever happened there at the end with the Targaryeans.
I find it Interesting that Barriston ended the last pretender campaign and has sworn to never let Dany (and her family) down again. It’s also interesting that Jon, having been raised a bastard, may yet learn of his parentage, becoming a sortof middle ground between bitter bastards and trueborn entitlement.

If anyone’s still reading, a few more random questions to stoke the fire…Is Varys backchanneling for Dany or for fAegon, or both? Is he backing true Targ or the bloodline of bastards? What is his involvement?
Is there anything to the idea that the Braavosi are descendants of those who escaped the terror of dragons, and may align accordingly? Is there any connection to the Titan’s head sigil of house Baelish?

And how ironic is it that Dany and DROGON will destroy the Khalasar before declaring ALL YOUR BASE and leading her new army back to Meereen???

Ah, Thomas Brodie-Sangster would have made a perfect Joffrey :(. Everyone loves to hate Jack Gleeson, but never had the right face for the character. I’m sorry for him, but he has a weird face, that makes him look evil. I know he enhances it, but Joffrey should look the opposite: an beautiful angel. I’m not a book purist, but I always found that funny, that he is a monster, but fools everyone with the way he looks (at first)

David Thomas: Bran is going to become King of the White Walkers, and Dany will slay him good!

that’s weird that you said that, because after I read the last book, I came up with a theory that Bran would eventually be able to “control” the Others, and use them in the final war, but I’m still not convinced he has total evil intentions. I was thinking more along the lines of using them to help his family and then pulling them back? I don’t know, it was just something I was left thinking about after reading ADWD. Anyway, it’s nice to know someone else came up with a somewhat similar theory as me!

and sorry, I used spoiler codes on that quote, and it showed up blacked out in the preview, but when posted the black-out disappeared!

Tyrionisthebest: I agree, but people like to make dumb theories like like Coldhands being Benjen even though Coldhands is supposed to have died a long time ago and other far fetched ones .

Where is it said that Coldhands died a long time ago?
And I think that theory is based more on people really wanting Benjen to be, err, “alive” somehow, or just not gone. Not knowing his fate is worse than knowing he died.

Whenever I think of these types of theories, the Ancient Greek word for truth comes to mind: aletheia, which means to bring into the light that which was in darkness. It is an unveiling, the discovery of a secret, derobing, action. We’re shining our lights into the abyss hoping to catch the few faint wisps of reference, but mostly what we see is more of the same–absolutely nothing.

AnneMarie Bowman: that’s weird that you said that, because after I read the last book, I came up with a theory that Bran would eventually be able to “control” the Others, and use them in the final war, but I’m still not convinced he has total evil intentions. I was thinking more along the lines of using them to help his family and then pulling them back?

Most “evil” action is caused by an overzealous desire to do “good”–the extreme of one pitches its equilibrium into its other. The Star Wars trope would have been a good example–Anakin pursing the “right thing to do” to such an extreme that it takes him to the dark side–but George Lukas had to pussy out and make it about some chick, and suddenly he’s all, I WILL BE EVIL! Arrrg.

But I think we have numerous examples of this, or potential examples, in ASOIAF, which create nice moral conundrums. Tywin’s reasoning of “explain why it’s better to kill 10,000 men in battle than a few at dinner”; Dany’s need to conquer in order to liberate, to destroy in order to create…will Bran or Jon be the one to pursue their noble intentions to their extreme, and thus into “evil”? We shall see.

I don’t think the first part is crackpot at all. Jon said that his rage could knock down the wall in AGOT. And he’s going to be angry when he’s resurrected, and he will want to hurt the people who’ve fucked with him and his family. Your theory also closely parallels with Norse Mythology – Surtr (Jon Snow) breaking the Bifröst Bridge (The Wall) and dealing Freyr (Walder Frey) a fatal blow with a burning sword.

I like your words about trying to find truth in the abyss…nice…but in this case, Coldhand’s history is mentioned to Bran by Leaf in Bran III in ADwD. Leaf mentions that “they killed him long ago.” Given that the CotF probably don’t throw around a term like “long ago” lightly, it’s probably true that CH has been around a long time…and I’m still holding out hope for Benjen. :)

Greyscale FTW: Coldhand’s history is mentioned to Bran by Leaf in Bran III in ADwD. Leaf mentions that “they killed him long ago.” Given that the CotF probably don’t throw around a term like “long ago” lightly, it’s probably true that CH has been around a long time…and I’m still holding out hope for Benjen. :)

You ask some great questions. I can try to answer some of them, but if you’re looking for hard evidence from book X page Y, it doesn’t exist. No author is going give you all the evidence you would need to prove without a doubt where the story is going. GRRM gives you just enough that you can infer what might happen, but there is no way you could prove it. R+L=J is a popular one that most accept, but you can’t deductively prove anything.

Take Varys for example. On the surface he appears to be pro-Targ. But you get these hints that Varys was the one who drove the Mad King over the edge. In a Davos chapter Stannis mentions how Barristan claimed the rot with Aerys started with Varys. There are other places this is talked about as well. Varys is also the one who gave Raeghar the book that pushed Raeghar to be concerned about his legacy and the prophecy regarding a dragon with 3 heads. The most logical explanation for Varys to appear pro-Targ and yet cause the downfall of the Targaryens is Varys is a Blackfyre and this was orchestrated to allow him to swap a Blackfyre into the line of succession.

(who’d be able to tell? Who’ll know? Would it change anything in-world?)

No one. If Connington can’t tell this isn’t really Raeghar’s child, no one else would be able to. But Connington does mention Aegon doesn’t have any of the features he associates with Raeghar, but brushes them aside. The only way in this world I see to prove fAegon is if the real Aegon appears and does have Raeghar’s features. The same way Stannis was going to use Edric Storm to show Joffrey couldn’t be Robert’s son.

The only way GRRM can avoid revealing a real Aegon without it becoming a “deus ex machina” is to introduce the real Aegon to the reader prior to introducing Young Griff. Which he has. Again, you’re not going to find a smoking gun proving this, but the clues are there. Someone who appears insignificant but little hints are there that he is more. Someone who’s hair keeps being dyed to cover his true hair color, thus also masking the true color of his eyes change.

How come, if the bittersteel thing was still so important to them? Jon believes that Aegon is the real thing. How would the whole top brass of the golden company know the “true” identity of fAegon except him?

Simple answer is fAegon holds the sword “Blackfyre” that Illyrio had given to fAegon. That is the signal to the GC Brass who this kid really is from the stories and traditions handed down. If Jon C did hear those stories during his time with the GC, they may not have resonated enough for him to put 2 and 2 together. The fact Bittersteel was the last one to wield the sword “Blackfyre” and Illyrio had it in his possession to give to fAegon is a big clue who Illyrio is a decedent of. I doubt even fAegon knows he is a fake.

We even know they planned to go back with Viserys and the Dothraki at first, and with Aegon and Dany later, so they obviously have no problem with Targaryens anymore. Else, Jon Connington would never have joined them.

If you’re going swap a Blackfyre in place of a Targaryen, it helps if you appear pro-Targaryen to avoid suspicion. Illyrio and Varys had Aegon hidden away, yet they were going to let Viserys fight for a throne, then tell him sorry someone with a better claim is still alive. So keep in mind that whether the GC went back with Viserys or Dany, they were still actually winning the throne for Aegon all along.

The most interesting line in the whole fAegon evidence is “Which plan? … The fat man’s plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns?”, GRRM self-deprecating joke about his Meereen frustrations..

Varys and Illyrio’s plan to sit Aegon on the Iron Throne never changed, only how it would be accomplished.

If you think fAegon has no real purpose, you’re gravely mistaken. The reason the histories of the Blackfyre’s exist in the books are because they serve a purpose, otherwise I’m left scratching my head why we would need that information at all. Why would Bloodraven still need to be around? He never wanted the throne for himself, only to stop the Blackfyre’s from ever claiming it.

. I may have missed this from an earlier post, but who are you suggesting is the real Aegon? You said Martin would have introduced him prior to fAegon/young griff?

While Barriston is an honorable man, he may not be the most reliable source for clues into the Mad kings descent. He is living with the weight of failure. He still blames Ned for Asharas death, after “breakin her heart”. It is likely he’s been played by the Brazen Beasts/sons of the harpy as well. To conclude that Varys was responsible for Aerys madness based on one of Barriston’s memories is a bit of a stretch…

But this is all part of the game with these books. So many threads to tie up, and so many possibilities!

I always thought the “some chick” that turned Anakin was his mother? Admittedly, eps 1-3 sucked ass and it’s been a very long time for me, so I may be forgetting something about Amidala…
Oh, and Lucas pussed out to sell toys. It is known.

Random thought RE Euron casting- I was looking at who was in the cast of The Fully Monty to see if any of them were well-known/in tv shows or movies I was familiar with- besides Mark Addy and Robert Carlyle.

I came across Hugo Speer and think he has the right look for a Euron who is the uncle of Theon and Yara. Not sure I’ve seen him act in anything though, so can’t speak to that.

Jordan:
Random thought RE Euron casting- I was looking at who was in the cast of The Fully Monty to see if any of them were well-known/in tv shows or movies I was familiar with- besides Mark Addy and Robert Carly

I came across Hugo Speer and think he has the right look for a Euron who is the uncle of Theon and Yara.Not sure I’ve seen him act in anything though, so can’t speak to that.

Thoughts?

He’s one of those actors who have been in loads of things in the UK even if one doesn’t always remember his name. The only thing I can think of offhand is “Fanny Hill”, a two part series made by the BBC about 7 years ago about the memoirs of “a woman of pleasure” based on an eighteenth century story. I haven’t read the original story so I don’t know how faithful it was to the book. Mr Speer played Mr H one of Fanny’s gentleman friends and did convey a creepy personality in that part.

I’m still hoping for James Purefoy for the sole purpose of wanting to drool over James Purefoy. Especially since I seem to be one of the few straight females who hasn’t found a man to drool over in this series yet.

Yay for purely selfish motives! Maybe Martin will make a new POV character out of me!

vlad:
Ah, Thomas Brodie-Sangster would have made a perfect Joffrey :(. Everyone loves to hate Jack Gleeson, but never had the right face for the character. I’m sorry for him, but he has a weird face, that makes him look evil. I know he enhances it, but Joffrey should look the opposite: an beautiful angel. I’m not a book purist, but I always found that funny, that he is a monster, but fools everyone with the way he looks (at first)

Have you seen any of the videos where Jack Gleeson is interviewed where he is not dressed up as Joffrey? There was one from an Irish TV programme where he was talking about his theatre company as well as playing Joffrey. To me at least, when he is in modern dress he looks like a perfectly pleasant young man. Medieval dress just doesn’t suit some people. Oona Chaplin was in a (UK) Channel Four series last year wearing modern dress and while I always thought she was an attractive lass I thought she looked better in modern garb than in her Talisa costume (mind you I didn’t like the Talisa character so I could be biased)

That is really interesting.There were a couple notable Brandon Starks… will it be Builder or Burner for this one? If indeed he’s goin sinister (which I tend to agree with)- I just had a thought. It seems possible that Bran, a cripple, learns from Bloodraven, a bastard, how to potentially resurrect, and maybe even warg Jon, a bastard. He could use Jon to find the Horn of Winter, which he knows is still out there. What if he brings down the wall and leads the Other south?
It would be like Martin to do such a thing, and nobody would expect it. Jon is the only one at this point who takes the threat of the Other seriously, and knows the overall situation in the north better than anybody. Just as he gives in to what’s happening in the realm- things turn for him.
I know this is all crackpot, but if he does lead the Others south he will have vengeance on his mind and start with the Boltons. Does Bran eventually warg Jon to ride a dragon, (you will fly), battling Dany in the next Dance?

Thoughts anybody?

Son of a gun! I’ve completely missed this! This is what happens when one’s off the boards for a while.

I have to say I’ve enjoyed all your crackpot theory thoroughly. I do hope Martin won’t do this part though. I know he likes dark. What do I say likes?! He LOVES dark. But we were told that warging another human being is just wrong. An abomination. I don’t want Bran to lose whatever morality he still possesses. We have seen already that he justifies himself and accepts inhabiting Hodor without remorse. I don’t want him to take a liking to Jon’s body. What if he takes it into his head never to give it back?!
Besides, Jon is a warg himself. Can wargs warg each other? isn’t that like a conflict of interest or something?

I hear ya, and I also hope (and kinda feel) this won’t come to pass… But who knows? I’m not sold on any theory I’ve heard. I have been thinking Bran is headed for the dark side for a long time…. I’ve never considered him warging Jon before though, and these are some interesting clues with the white dragon piece and Brans falling/flying dream…
As far as the evil involved in warging a human, I think Martin may be dropping some hints… Because we learn of that more or less the same time Bran is becoming more reckless warging hodor. Why else would he go to such lengths (sixskins chapter) to spell out the importance of that and then show us Bran playing around with his power?