Invented metal is a bit of a stretch. Were key to it's popularization and spread though, for sure.

But there were others early on, you know, like Sabbath, who were just as critical to its development.

Zeppelin can be called a metal band, but you could also just call them a rock band, or more specifically, a hard rock band. There sound had more folk and blues in it than a band like Sabbath, who even in their slower stuff tended to be a bit heavier/darker.

Invented metal is a bit of a stretch. Were key to it's popularization and spread though, for sure.

But there were others early on, you know, like Sabbath, who were just as critical to its development.

Zeppelin can be called a metal band, but you could also just call them a rock band, or more specifically, a hard rock band. There sound had more folk and blues in it than a band like Sabbath, who even in their slower stuff tended to be a bit heavier/darker.

That is true, but Zep managed to release two albums before Sabbath even came out with one and it was a lot heavier than the other stuff around that time. In the late 60's, they were making what can be constituted as the early stages of "heavy metal". Sabbath was not in the discussion, just yet.

If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

That is true, but Zep managed to release two albums before Sabbath even came out with one and it was a lot heavier than the other stuff around that time. In the late 60's, they were making what can be constituted as the early stages of "heavy metal". Sabbath was not in the discussion, just yet.

Well, again, I said invented was a stretch. Sabbath also formed in the late 60s, it just took them a couple of years to get an album out. So what I mean is that there were a few bands, who were pretty jointly responsible for the emergence and popularization of the genre, especially since their styles weren't all exactly the same.

Also Zeppelin often spanned a more diverse range than what would strictly be called metal. That doesn't make them not a metal band, it makes them more than simply a metal band. Whereas Sabbath's sound more often stayed within the confines of what would become known as metal. This is a distinction, and not anything I'm saying to suggest one is better than the other or more responsible for metal than the other.

proto-metal, maybe, but they're no more metal than the stooges or the MC5 are (or invented) punk, or any blues musician is (or invented) rock and roll.

i actually think metal is the easiest of any genre of popular music to point the finger at the exact moment it started.

and that moment is the song BLACK SABBATH on an album called BLACK SABBATH by the band named BLACK SABBATH.

it is the first song they ever wrote. go listen to it, and then listen to, oh i dunno, say that awesome pallbearer album that came out last year which was pretty widely regarded in underground metal circles as one of the best doom records of the last ten years.

and then marvel at how little the doom genre has evolved since sabbath perfected it on the first thing they ever recorded in 1969.

That is true, but Zep managed to release two albums before Sabbath even came out with one and it was a lot heavier than the other stuff around that time. In the late 60's, they were making what can be constituted as the early stages of "heavy metal". Sabbath was not in the discussion, just yet.

Apollo wrote:

Of course they're metal. Those who say they're not need to research the genre. It started with them, Sabbath, Iron Maiden, etc.

and just because something is 'heavy' does not make it metal. metal is an aesthetic as much as it is a sound. witches in front of old ass haunted looking mansions or sword wielding maniacs or songs called the wizard or hand of doom or electric funeral? that is fucking metal, and they invented the aesthetic.

whole lotta love or since i've been loving you or whatever - not very metal

and just because something is 'heavy' does not make it metal. metal is an aesthetic as much as it is a sound. witches in front of old ass haunted looking mansions or sword wielding maniacs or songs called the wizard or hand of doom or electric funeral? that is fucking metal, and they invented the aesthetic.

whole lotta love or since i've been loving you or whatever - not very metal

metal!

If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

Invented metal is a bit of a stretch. Were key to it's popularization and spread though, for sure.

But there were others early on, you know, like Sabbath, who were just as critical to its development.

Zeppelin can be called a metal band, but you could also just call them a rock band, or more specifically, a hard rock band. There sound had more folk and blues in it than a band like Sabbath, who even in their slower stuff tended to be a bit heavier/darker.

ozzy was obsessed with zeppelin and was almost certainly influenced by them

"The first heavy metal bands such as Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple and Black Sabbath attracted large audiences, though they were often derided by critics, a status common throughout the history of the genre. "

I never thought of Zeppelin as Metal. They were a Blues Rock band that moved the blues into a much harder, distorted and heavy direction, but they weren't the best example of a "Metal" band. No for me at least.

Backwards

You're trying to retroactively re-categorize things based on modern notion of the genre.

Here is a good example: Iggy Pop and the Clash don't really sound like "punk" if your definition of "punk" is what you hear today but looking at things that way doesn't make sense. If anything, if Iggy Pop doesn't sound like all those generic crap "punk bands" then maybe those bands aren't really punk?

Most modern metal bands are talentless hacks when compared to the likes of Zep in their prime. Maybe most of these modern metal bands should be sub-categorized into a new genre? We could call it "feces metal" or "half digested generic metal"?

You're trying to retroactively re-categorize things based on modern notion of the genre.

Here is a good example: Iggy Pop and the Clash don't really sound like "punk" if your definition of "punk" is what you hear today but looking at things that way doesn't make sense. If anything, if Iggy Pop doesn't sound like all those generic crap "punk bands" then maybe those bands aren't really punk?

Most modern metal bands are talentless hacks when compared to the likes of Zep in their prime. Maybe most of these modern metal bands should be sub-categorized into a new genre? We could call it "feces metal" or "half digested generic metal"?

I like to call it "machine gun drum metal"

If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

You're trying to retroactively re-categorize things based on modern notion of the genre.

Here is a good example: Iggy Pop and the Clash don't really sound like "punk" if your definition of "punk" is what you hear today but looking at things that way doesn't make sense. If anything, if Iggy Pop doesn't sound like all those generic crap "punk bands" then maybe those bands aren't really punk?

i'm not really sure who you're talking to, but YOUíRE the one being revisionist classifying a band that is not metal as metal because you donít understand the culture and only relate to it through VH1 and the fucking pansy that made metal evolution and all those shitty docs.

obviously, music is a continuum where everything thatís created has been informed by something that preceded it. no-one would argue that zeppelin wasnít a huge influence on sabbath. half the first sabbath record is in the same bluesy hard rock vein as zeppelin. this does not make zeppelin a metal band.

hardcore was a massive influence on slayer and first wave black metal bands like bathory and venom. is black flag a thrash metal band? have the DKís become black metal? no, because that is ridiculous.

my point is that somewhere along the line of the music-evolution continuum a thing splinters off and becomes so wholly unique and different from what preceded it that it is now a New Thing, and inspires legions of others to follow in the footsteps of that New Thing.

with many genres, that point in time is pretty difficult to identify.

but with metal, itís very easy. it is the riff from the song BLACK SABBATH on the album BLACK SABBATH by the band BLACK SABBATH.

it is slow. it is downtuned. it is scary as hell and heavy as balls. it is the first metal riff, and if you want to deny this i would suggest you listen to a lot more metal and stop pretending you like it or that you know anything about it.

Apollo wrote:

Most modern metal bands are talentless hacks when compared to the likes of Zep in their prime. Maybe most of these modern metal bands should be sub-categorized into a new genre? We could call it "feces metal" or "half digested generic metal"?

you just dismissed the modern output of a genre wholesale, which is so ignorant i dunno where to start. you could say this about literally any genre. music sucks. period. unless you're willing to dig to discover things through non-traditional avenues. the fact that you aren't indicates that you probably don't actually like metal and maybe shouldn't speak to its history

Guys, simmer down, its music, and its art and its all up for debate as personal feelings will always be involved. We all have our own idea about what metal is. Some, like me, find that a blues foundation keeps a band in the "hard rock" category, other, look at the hard core riffs and distortion a band like Zeppelin often offered, and claim Metal through and through. truth is, bands are constantly bending their genres, and Zeppelin was masterful at this, so much so that you almost wanna down grade them to just plain ole "Rock" as they bounced from category to category often in one album. Is "you don't have to go" Metal, or is it a Blues/Reggae fusion? And Dazed and Confused, its slow and stretched awesome of riffs....is that metal, sounds metal to me, but then Robert Plant opens his mouth and offers up some of the deepest Blues singing I have ever heard.

Rather than tear into each other in silly attempts to prove your prowess, why not discuss all the awesome ways bands like Zeppelin and even in some ways Sabbath, basically avoided being put into a category, and because of this, why they grew such massive audiences that spanned generations and genres. They simply just rock that shit out proper.

i'm not really sure who you're talking to, but YOU’RE the one being revisionist classifying a band that is not metal as metal because you don’t understand the culture and only relate to it through VH1 and the fucking pansy that made metal evolution and all those shitty docs.

obviously, music is a continuum where everything that’s created has been informed by something that preceded it. no-one would argue that zeppelin wasn’t a huge influence on sabbath. half the first sabbath record is in the same bluesy hard rock vein as zeppelin. this does not make zeppelin a metal band.

hardcore was a massive influence on slayer and first wave black metal bands like bathory and venom. is black flag a thrash metal band? have the DK’s become black metal? no, because that is ridiculous.

my point is that somewhere along the line of the music-evolution continuum a thing splinters off and becomes so wholly unique and different from what preceded it that it is now a New Thing, and inspires legions of others to follow in the footsteps of that New Thing.

with many genres, that point in time is pretty difficult to identify.

but with metal, it’s very easy. it is the riff from the song BLACK SABBATH on the album BLACK SABBATH by the band BLACK SABBATH.

it is slow. it is downtuned. it is scary as hell and heavy as balls. it is the first metal riff, and if you want to deny this i would suggest you listen to a lot more metal and stop pretending you like it or that you know anything about it.

you just dismissed the modern output of a genre wholesale, which is so ignorant i dunno where to start. you could say this about literally any genre. music sucks. period. unless you're willing to dig to discover things through non-traditional avenues. the fact that you aren't indicates that you probably don't actually like metal and maybe shouldn't speak to its history

Definitely need to relax a bit chris.

One could argue its rather ignorant of you to say that Metal HAS TO BE "scary" sounding.
When I think of Heavy Metal I think of LOUD and DISTORTED and FAST.
Not really slow and scary. So to each their own.
And just as your argument states, just because Zeppelin was certainly influenced by Blues, doesn't make them a Blues Band. They were alot of things, absolutely, but they were, in my opinion, the starting point of Metal. The point where Metal became a thing, because like you said, they were just THAT different.

Last edited by Joey; Tue Oct 29th, 2013 at 09:01 AM.

"That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson