Can someone explain the difference to me (in layman's terms, if possible)? If I am to believe the "internet(s)", WS falls solidly into both categories.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2011

Bobbi_sue♀ 10347Member # 10347

Posted: 11:58 AM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013

IMO, it does not matter how somebody categorizes it, or whether they simplify it to "habitual" liar. My XH was one, and I don't think the labels matter, nor do I think even professionals would agree on what constitutes which label. All I know is that he lied to me about his name and age when I first met him, and the lies never stopped during our 13 year marriage.

Posts: 5899 | Registered: Apr 2006

OldCow18♀ 39670Member # 39670

Posted: 12:03 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013

I thought this described it pretty well. And I believe my WH is a compulsive liar.

Compulsive liars have no motive for lying, they do it because they can not help it and also, because they find the truth to be very uncomfortable. On the other hand, pathological liars have an agenda, something that they want to achieve, that they get by lying, little caring about other people.

So, it seems like, if one starts out as a pathological liar, they would most likely become a compulsive liar as well, by default?

A pathological liar is someone who lies to get his way. They are manipulative, crafty and usually have a goal in mind when they lie. Pathological liars have no concern for the feelings of others, even of those people who are close to them.

I mean, if one lives their life as the above is defined, then the compulsivity of it would be automatic after years and years and years, right? It just seems to be the natural progression (digression?) of things? If they are so used to lying to get their way it would become natural to them?

Like Bobbi_sue said though, it really doesn't matter. I'm just trying to understand the distinction.

"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2143 | Registered: Jun 2009

Eudaimonia♀ 32445Member # 32445

Posted: 4:22 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013

Lol, ladies_first, excellent point. Though, it seems by the psych industry's definitions of the two that one means possible recovery and the other means hopeless and likely dangerous. Hence, I would simply like to have some kind of idea as to what I am dealing with. ....improving "my" life, as it were.

I'm with you: a liar is a liar. It just seems as though someone in the industry differentiated between the two for a reason.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2011

ladies_first♀ 24643Member # 24643

Posted: 5:37 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013

Compulsive lying is usually thought to develop in early childhood, due to being placed in an environment where lying was necessary.

Can you talk to his mother or siblings about lying during his childhood, i.e., compulsive lying.

Anti-Social Personality Disorder or Narcissistic Personality Disorder may be pathological liars, while compulsive liars can occasionally be sufferers of ADHD, Bipolar Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder.

There are NPD checklists if you want to pursue the pathological angle.

Good luck with your armchair diagnosis.

ETA: From your post on 9/11/13

And, maybe I do have an unlikable personality. Fair enough. This is one of the things that I saw on his emails and AM/CL/dating profiles: that his wife was unlikable. But, he never said any of that to my face. He still insists that he was lying to manipulate his targets.

"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2143 | Registered: Jun 2009

brokenblackbird♀ 29541Member # 29541

Posted: 5:48 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013

Anti-Social Personality Disorder or Narcissistic Personality Disorder may be pathological liars, while compulsive liars can occasionally be sufferers of ADHD, Bipolar Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder.

Can I add passive aggressive to this list? Because a passive aggressors lie to keep their anger hidden.

Posts: 875 | Registered: Sep 2010

Ashland13♀ 38378Member # 38378

Posted: 6:37 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013

It's been suggested to me that pathological liars have zero feelings about what they're doing or saying during a lie, and after, where a compulsive liar may do it because it's learned behavior.

The latter is more likely to have a twinge of some type of emotion, but not enough to stop them because it benefits them first and foremost.

X learned to lie for a few reasons and got so that he could block out any emotional reaction about the people he was lying to, because what he wanted out of it was far more important than the person he was hurting. It's thought that he probably did it as a child in order to get out of jams, too and just kind of picked it back up.

You know what he told me once after he was outed? "You should believe me now, for I have no agenda anymore." I was positively speechless.

Ashland 13

You gave me nothing and now it's all I've got - Bono

A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess

Perserverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages.

-George Washington

Posts: 2524 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: New England

IslandGirl18♀ 36781Member # 36781

Posted: 6:47 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013

I understood the distinction to be that a pathological liar believes the lies being told and the lies become the new truth.

me: BS
him: WS

D Day: July 27, 2012
Day of first suspicion: 6/7/11
DD#2: November 2, 2012

Divorced

Posts: 106 | Registered: Sep 2012

Eudaimonia♀ 32445Member # 32445

Posted: 6:56 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013

Excellent responses, thank you so much.

Can you talk to his mother or siblings about lying during his childhood, i.e., compulsive lying.

Well, he learned the lying behavior from his adoptive mother. They haven't spoken in years so I don't think I could learn much from her. And to make it more confusing, his biological mother has siblings who were actually "diagnosed" pathological liars-or so she has said. I am completely convinced that she is also in the pathological category, though again, I would be just guessing based on an extremely limited (if at all) knowledge of the topic. Armchair, indeed!

The NPD checklists I have found, well, he checks off almost every single one of the "warning signs" on the list. Some lists-he checks off every one. But again, those lists fall into armchair category too, don't they?

And so glad you reminded me about the manipulating targets!-I'd say that teeters the totter to one side for sure!

Can I add passive aggressive to this list? Because a passive aggressors lie to keep their anger hidden.

OMG-yes!

The latter is more likely to have a twinge of some type of emotion, but not enough to stop them because it benefits them first and foremost.

Excellent point. It brings me back to my confusion though, in that the compulsive is acting on behalf of some selfish purpose-motive-which is part of the definition of pathological?....I'm not even making sense to myself anymore. Argh.

"You should believe me now, for I have no agenda anymore."

Holy, wow. This one goes up at the top of the "huh-I mean, wth"charts, Ashland. Speechless here, as well!

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2011

solus sto♀ 30989Member # 30989

Posted: 7:25 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013

"Pathological" simply refers to something that is sick or unhealthy. By definition, anything compulsive is pathological.

The real distinction I would make is between someone who does not believe rules apply to him/her---and simply lies to maintain a facade of social conformity while actually endeavoring to manipulate others--- and someone who lies to save face, to get validation, or for some other reason.

The former is more worrisome to me; it is an antisocial trait, and may apply in either NPD or antisocial personality disorder (or to a lesser extent in those who display traits of these).

IME, those who lie to save face, or to get approval, etc. are more amenable to learning new behaviors.