The Myth Of The Medieval BBW

Ugly women, feminists, and fat chicks hate that men have attractiveness standards. It’s been as long as I can remember that mustachioed lezbo academics and their impressionable vajlings have been claiming that prehistoric drawings and figurines supposedly depicting fatass broads prove that female beauty standards are malleable and culturally conditioned. Riiiight. My first post-puberty boner at age fourteen for the cute, slender brunette down the street wouldn’t have happened without messages from TV telling me thin chicks are in.

Even more disheartening for the cultural conditioning crowd and BBW goddess true believers, there is evidence that prehistoric men carved plenty of sexy, slender babes for their viewing pleasure. And in mini-skirts, to boot! Yes, Cosmo B.C. must have been warping teenage minds 7,500 years ago.

“What about Rubens?!” squeal the fatties. Well, many of Rubens’ late medieval European contemporaries, such as Botticelli and Cranach, painted slender babes. And Rubens himself deviated from his fat fetish to paint normal weight women. Furthermore, it is likely that Rubens was not painting masturbation material for the masses. If he was, he probably would have ended up like Francisco de Goya, who *did* paint erotically posed slender women.

Goya was summoned by the Spanish Inquisition to explain who commissioned the “obscene” art. I don’t know what Goya told them but he lost his job as the Spanish court painter, and this was as late as the early 19th century, though in southern Europe. Goya’s nude maja comes close to modern erotic pinup art/photography and is the type of art that is most likely to represent the artist’s preferences or those of his contemporaries, but it doesn’t depict an overweight woman. What were the chances of a painter coming up with something similar when the Church ruled?

If your paintings would have caused hard-ons to spring up among the drooling public, the Church would have had a word with you.

Bottom line: There is no evidence that Rubens’ paintings of unpleasantly plump women were representative of the kind of women that most men of his time considered hot. Except for a few weird outliers like the Mauritanians and fatty fuckers like Rubens, and allowing for some minor variation in female attractiveness standards between the major races, the vast majority of men across cultures and historical generations have lusted for thin young women (BMI 17 – 23) with 0.7 waist-hip ratios and feminine dispositions. No amount of railing against the “system” or engaging in sophistic pseudoacademic hocus-pocus is gonna change this fact.

673 Responses

The “BBW” look has never been considered attractive. However, in the medieval era, it was rare. Its rarity meant that obese women could pair off when the small percentage of men who found that attractive. Also, it signified wealth in a time when it was very difficult for a man to rise in social class. Now that fatness is not rare and correlates with poverty and poor diet, fat chicks are screwed.

Feminists who complain about overly thin female models have a solid point, which is that female models are absurdly thin, beyond what is attainable or healthy for most women, and thinner than most mens’ tastes. The model-thin, six-pack image has only been selected as the “cultural ideal” because it’s so difficult for normal girls to attain, keeping them perpetually insecure. (Average men prefer healthy thin-medium girls, not stick-thin waifs.) This manipulation is somewhat repulsive, but it’s not a cause for dishonestly representing “plus-size” women as paragons of beauty, but for promotion of the healthy medium-built image (Michelle Obama being a great example).

[editor: michelle obama has a fat ass and hips. but if you’re a black guy you might go for that. catwalk supermodels aren’t chosen for their sex appeal to straight men.]

It is really not that difficult to explain. (Straight) men choose their sexual partners based on their manifest fertility, women choose their sexual partners based on their manifest status. Fertility manifests itself in physical attributes–the relationship between the certain physical features and the degree of fertility they indicate is a biological fact that cannot be shaped to any non-trivial degree by cultural forces.

To suggest otherwise would be like suggesting that physical indicators of strength were culturally determined, as opposed to the reality which is that height and prominent musculature are will always be perceived as objective indications of a person’s strength.

: Yeah, but she’s healthy and in great shape, and she has a gorgeous face. Her upper arms are really nice, too. Finally, she’s so ladylike she gets +2 for that.

[editor: are we talking about the same michelle obama? the woman is a 3 in the face, and a -100 in ladylikeness.]

(I’m white, for the record.)

[is troll a race?]

My point is that there are a lot of men out there for medium-built, healthy women, and for whom a small belly or large hips aren’t a big deal– these can even be an asset. Whereas only the fat fetishists go for monster “BBWs”.

[true, but grossly obese BBWs aren’t the whole story. there are plenty of chubby chicks who are hurting their chances in the sexual market. most men would sooner date a woman who was 10 pounds underweight than a woman 10 pounds overweight.]

She wears a size eight, that makes her much smaller than the average woman.

[editor: well then, dress sizes have been porker-adjusted to fit the modern woman’s ego, cause she sure don’t look smaller than the average woman. when i see michelle obama, a few words come to mind: hut… hut… hike!]

A woman should have somewhat wide hips a woman with no hips is like a man in a dress.

[non sequitur. noting that a woman has fat hips doesn’t mean i prefer no hips. stop being such a chic.]

This is true, they are chosen to make the clothes look well. but many runway models go on to become Victoria Secret and SI models. Latecia Casta and Tyra Banks(also an size 8) were much heavier than the average Victoria Secret or SI model.

[editor: link doesn’t work. if it doesn’t account for frame size and height, it’s useless. anorexia is very rare in the population. little correlation can be made between healthy bmis on the low end (16-18) and anorexia, other than to note, rather obviously, that anorexia becomes more prevalent the lower the bmi.]

You wrote that you calculate backward from weight/height stats on women in porn. Those numbers are fabricated.

[i never wrote that. nonetheless, most women who are chosen to appeal to men’s sexual desire fall well within the 17-23 bmi range. so tell me, are you a fatass?]

“Feminists who complain about overly thin female models have a solid point, which is that female models are absurdly thin, beyond what is attainable or healthy for most women, and thinner than most mens’ tastes. ”

—true. But feminists do realize the fashion industry is run by gay men, not straight men, so the women chosed most resemble the gay male ideal (i.e. teenage boys), right? And also because a rail thin figure=coat hanger, and on a coat hanger, everything looks good.

“The model-thin, six-pack image has only been selected as the “cultural ideal” because it’s so difficult for normal girls to attain, keeping them perpetually insecure. ”
—no one I know knows of this 6-pack image for girls. And no, it is not selected as a cultural ideal, it is selected because 1) gay men like girls who look like young boys; and 2) coat hangers make clothing look good.

“m”ichelle Obama being a great example.”
—Michelle Obama is an ugly Klingon.

What’s more, she represents the current gay push for women to have muscles (especially the euphamism “toned arms”) which are disgusting for straight men. Disgusting straight men, thsoe women will be driven to lesbians—and delight gay men by looking even more masculine.

Feminists know that the fashion industry’s run by gay men, but 14-year-old girls don’t. The feminists are angry because the “beauty ideal” being trotted out to young women is unattainable and not even what most men desire.

Michelle Obama is not grossly muscular. She’s clearly in shape, but she doesn’t have definition. (I’m a man in average shape, and her arms are less defined than mine.) Her body’s still feminine. Female bodybuilders are another matter entirely; that’s repulsive.

Is it harder for a beta to become an alpha or for a fat chick to become slender? I really think beta->alpha transition is more difficult, and in many cases, especially among the lower class, involves life threatening risk, law breaking, and violence. Fat chicks need to learn to do barbell squats, deadlifts, and presses, clean up their diet, engage in regular high intensity cardio, and eat less.

Chess:
“The feminists are angry because the “beauty ideal” being trotted out to young women is unattainable and not even what most men desire. ”
—feminists are angry because they believe in a nonsensical cult that tells them to blame everything that isn’t their fault on everyone else.

Chess reminds of Michael Moore. I picked up one of his books once, and he went on a childish tirade about how conservatives trashed the “beautiful” Hillary Clinton by calling her ugly, then decided to “piss them off” by declaring Hillary “Hot” and that he wanted to sleep with her.

You’re out of your mind. Saying you don’t find Michelle attractive is one thing. We all have our own tastes. All that really matters is that Barack thinks she’s hot. Though I am definitely proud to have such a beautiful family representing our country.

Saying she is ugly is just absurd. There is a 99% chance that she is better looking than your wife will be when you are 48.

Don’t even bullshit about the cultural ideals of physical beauty and how unfair they are for women, fatties. Have you seen what men are supposed to live up to? 6’0+ 200lb 5-8% bodyfat requires way more sacrifice and is way less sustainable and attainable for a majority of men than the catwalk model look is for women.

If we want to determine the power of culture vs. genetics in male preferences for women, then we need to do an experiment which asks a number of adopted males, their adoptive families, their biological parents and their friends to choose between different women of arguably equal attractiveness in our culture. It would have to be like Kim Karadashian vs Karolina Kurkova and so on (a simple survey can determine which women have equally broad appeal). You could then determine whose preferences correlates best with the adopted males.

Granted, there would be no BBWs in the study, but such a study could provide a more precise estimate of how male preferences are formed.

[editor: you’ll just have to trust me on this. there is no way in hell a man’s boner is influenced to any appreciable degree by anything other than that instantaneous blast of animal lust for a hot female bod that forms in the deepest nucleus of his hindbrain. executive summary: man looks, man likes, man chubs out.]

Since so many people get their panties in a twist over this, it kind of deserves an empirical answer.

[a lot of women project their attractiveness standards onto men, incorrectly coming to the conclusion that much of beauty is culturally conditioned, simply because for women much of what they find attractive in men *is* somewhat socially mediated, e.g. social proof and preselection. experiments have been done which show that women will find the same man more attractive when he’s surrounded by other women than when he’s alone or in the company of men.]

most men would sooner date a woman who was 10 pounds underweight than a woman 10 pounds overweight.

I think one of your own personal idiosycracies is showing through here. The opposite is more likely to be true. Lest the fatties get too excited though, there are limits and they come up a lot faster than you think.

[editor: a lot depends on how the deficit or excess of fat sits on a woman. for most women of average frame size on the upper end of the ideal bmi range, 10 pounds under her typical weight would either have a neutral effect on her looks or cause a small improvement. but those same women would likely take a hit to their attractiveness if an extra 10 pounds put them over bmi 23, and especially if the fat accumulated in unsightly pockets or in the face.]

Why would “leftwing moonbattery” influence my opinion of someone’s attractiveness? I don’t consider Laura Bush to be ugly, even though her husband was a fucking asshole.

[editor: 2009 laura bush is only a little more attractive than michelle obama. older pics of laura in her 20s show a cute girl, much cuter than pics of michelle from her firebrand affirmative action days at princeton u. btw, thanks for copping to your bias in this matter.]

lurker

Are you kidding? She’s stunning in that picture. I’m surprised we could look at the same photo and have such different reactions. She doesn’t have stick arms, but she doesn’t have masculine man-arms either. They’re great, especially for a 45-year-old woman.

For every Rubens or “mother-goddess figurine”, there are thousands of images like the one I’ve linked to – the idealized female form as slender, with wider hips, coloured lips, and firm breasts. Here’s another example:

Anyone who has ever had education in archaeology or anthropology knows that “religious/ritual object” is a guess at best, when the original purpose of the object is unknown.

There’s also another gaping hole in the “ancient BBW” assumption – that not all female deities were sex objects. Kali, for example, or the Sheela na Gig.

“I don’t consider Laura Bush to be ugly, even though her husband was a fucking asshole. ”
—lol. You do get the difference between calling Laura Bush ugly and declaring the Klingon an attractive woman, right?

how else do you get the roundness without a bit of fat? Maybe I don’t get your idea of roundness, will you post a link please?

[editor: i’m short on patience for your usual smoke and mirrors dumbassery, so don’t push it or i’m going to fuck around with every comment you write on this topic for my amusement. *of course* women have fat in their asses, but that doesn’t mean a man can’t tell the difference between a nice round ass and a fat ass.]: well then, dress sizes have been porker-adjusted to fit the modern woman’s ego, cause she sure don’t look smaller than the average woman.

the average woman wears a size 14(size 18-20 50 years ago).

[the average american woman is a fat fuck.]

Look at a few pics of Michelle standing next to Carla Bruni and you will see that Michelle is about 2-3 sizes larger than Carla.

[non sequitur. noting that a woman has fat hips doesn’t mean i prefer no hips. stop being such a chic.]

That was to any man who complains about a woman with wide hips. many of the 50’s pinups had wide hips. Women like Betty Paige, Marylyn Monroe and Elizabeth Taylor. Even some of the stars from the 70’s were a bit wide in the hips ex Rachel Welch.

[you are fucking stupid or disingenuous. or both. repeat after me: “being turned off by fat hips does not mean prefering no hips on a woman.” do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?]

Looks like a man to me. Michelangelo was one of those hypermasculinity loving gays that hate women. The grotesque torturings of the female form in much of his work are majorly disfigurements of some of the greatest visual art ever created. The one major exception I can think of is his great Pieta.

The greatest painter of the female form was, in my opinion, Botticelli, though Raphael and Leonardo painted some pretty impressive women as well.

“We’ll just have to agree to disagree.”
—this is a basic logic issue, not an opinion. Michelle Obama is an ugly woman. Fact.

“My politics have no bearing on my assessment of Michelle’s physical attractiveness. That’s ridiculous.”
—lol. right. and chic is rational. You just called yourself “proud’ of the Obamas leading the country and Bush a fucking asshole. Only a partisan hack would pull this trifecta out.

“I’ll admit that I find myself liking black women a lot more than the average white guy.”
—because they are liberal and you have SWPL beta guilt.

“Perhaps that is a source of bias, but my politics have nothing to do with it.”
—and chic is rational.

Michelle Obama’s body looks healthy. Not really attractive in a classical sense, but healthy. She’s not a BBW or a warpig, and that puts her in a rather high percentile of American black women. She’s not so much a Klingon, though, as an Ogron.

Also, if I can tell that you’re an angry, resentful ingrate just by looking at you, you’re not beautiful.

“The man just wrote this post not an hr ago and you two are already spamming the damn thing. ”
—poor baby, Michelle the Klingon’s groupies are getting beat down!

“Go back to the Meghan post if you two want to spam. ”
—woman, you do not tell us what to do.

“Folks are trying to have a discourse and the two of you are trying to railroad the post right from the gate.”
—no, you’re trying to claim up is down. Michelle Nobama is a large,unattarctive drag queen. Deal with it.

“[editor: no, i accused you of trollery because no man with two eyes would claim michelle obama was good looking, unless he was operating under a severe bias, such as leftwing moonbattery.]”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You’re the same guy who claims MOST men would rather date a woman 10 pounds under weight than 10 pound over.

Do you even know MOST men?

Who’s the troll here?

(Question for the peanut gallery: is it possible for a blogster to troll his own blog? LOL)

[editor: how tall are you? how much do you weigh? that’ll be all for now.]

[you are fucking stupid or disingenuous. or both. repeat after me: “being turned off by fat hips does not mean prefering no hips on a woman.” do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?]

No need to get so testy.

[editor: testes, testes… one… two… three?]

I have no idea why you are so angry.

[i have no idea why you are so knuckleheaded. actually, wait, yes i do.]

I just posted a few women who were considered attractive 30-50 years ago in comparison to the more str8 bodies women of today. I was trying to give you a comparison of how female beauty (in the media) has changed.

[don’t confuse media chosen reps with what men find hot.]

[editor: i’m short on patience for your usual smoke and mirrors dumbassery, so don’t push it or i’m going to fuck around with every comment you write on this topic for my amusement. *of course* women have fat in their asses, but that doesn’t mean a man can’t tell the difference between a nice round ass and a fat ass.]

*sigh*

[the sigh of spanked-ness.]

I wanted you to link to a few photos of women who had nice round butts (in your opinion). Remember my cultural reference is different. My ideal round butt is probably much larger than your ideal. My ideal is video models Ki-toy and Melissa ford.

[that’s great, except this post is about what men find attractive in women, not what an ethiopian chick likes.]

Yeah, I’m not sure I get the people saying Michelle is not attractive.

Michelle Obama is NOT ATTRACTIVE AT ALL. She looks and acts like a true harridan. She’s got a lantern jawed face. She looks like she loves to bitch and argue and insists on always getting her way. Ugggg.

You’ve come into a thread about the norms of physical attractiveness in females. Your words of praise are things like “educated”, “strong”, “spiritual”, and “upper-middle-class”. You have conflated your politics with your libido.

“Michelle Obama’s body looks healthy. Not really attractive in a classical sense, but healthy. She’s not a BBW or a warpig, and that puts her in a rather high percentile of American black women. She’s not so much a Klingon, though, as an Ogron.”

Smart summation. Michelle is unattractive, but her workout regimen keeps her from becoming hideous. I explain in greater detail here.

White and Asian guys probably care less about wide hips than most black guys do, but most do prefer them when the don’t come with fat. Black guys will take a lot of fat to get a big hipped look. All are generalizations that aren’t true in every case.

When black women are slender-to-medium in build, they are usually beautiful. Black obesity in the US has more to do with culture than genetics, and ghetto culture has virtually nothing to do with Africa; it inherits most of its “DNA” from the Southern lower class, which inherits most of its character from the British hinterlands in the 17th century.

Ethiopian women, for example, are gorgeous. I think they’re up there with Polish and Croatian women.

I’ve posted about this on my blog. I think there are more marriage-worthy black women because black women tend to be a lot more “correlated”. If they’re thin, they’re usually gorgeous and take good care of themselves. If they’re intelligent, they usually have culture and class. The correlations among desired traits are much stronger. This means that there are more “straight A” women in the black community than among whites. There are also probably more “straight F” women (fat, loud, violent and mean ghetto bitches) but they don’t matter from the perspective of one seeking a marriage partner. From the perspective of marriage-worthiness, a straight-F ghetto girl or methed-out redneck is equivalent (marriage value = 0) to a Sex and the City yuppie-slut with A’s in looks, intelligence, and education but F’s in couth, culture, and chastity.

Eumaios,
Chester A. Arthur was quite popular with the ladies. He was a clothes horse and had quite a bit of style. If I recall correctly he wasn’t much of a player though, and was pretty devoted to his wife who I think died relatively young. You probably know this though if you are posting pics of Mrs. Arthur.

For me the best way to understand this is comparing fat chicks and short dudes. I’m just under 5’7” (average male height ~ 5’10”). It’s a very similar dynamic, and one that is very difficult to overcome for either sex.

In my lesser beta days I nailed my share of fat chicks whom I wouldn’t’ give the time of day to now. I imagine women react the same way to us short dudes.

Now as soon as I find that asshole who promised me life would be fair….

For the same reason it’s influenced most of the fashion industry and women’s magazine and other media’s opinion of Michelle Obama’s attractiveness. They and you are leaning over backwards to NOT downgrade her because she’s back. So you upgrade her and cut her all kinds of slack because she is. Like the media do to an amazing and ridiculous degree.

This thread has gone way off topic. Let’s try to wrench it back on track. Here’s a GIS for greek sculptures of women. I frankly don’t care what female body shape primitive cultures liked. Primitive men are degraded subsisters. They are not a good model for how we should live.

No, I wanted a clear picture of what you find attractive. I guess you’re playing hide and seek.

[editor: more precisely, i’m not playing by your rules of engagement, i.e. evade, dodge, and misconstrue. if you want a clear picture of what men like, read the post.]

*shrugs shoulders*

[shrugging looks weak.]

Fine with me.

[i don’t think it is.]

I read the post but you didn’t post any pictues of a woman with your ideal body type. Listing BMI doesn’t give a clear picture since two women of the same height can have different BMI’s but wear the same dress size.

[bmi 17 -23, 0.7 whr, clear skin, young, and hot face. there’s your answer. if two women are the same height and weight, then their bmis will be the same or close to the same give or take some minor variation due to frame build, unless one of them happens to be a bodybuilder. dress sizes are a poor approximation of body size since dress sizes have been adjusted over the years to accommodate fragile american women’s egos. and no two brands will fit the same at identical dress size points.]

if you want to evade honest questions,play games,throw insults and act as if you’re omniscient, well fine. It’s your blog.

[chiclet debate tactic #22: evade, then claim the other person is evading.]

I am trying to steal a march on the meaning of “primitive”. Ancient != primitive. Really ugly, clumsy artifacts don’t necessarily come from a certain era of time. They come from degraded peoples, heavily inbred, at the fringes of habitable territory. These people I term primitive.

My ire is aimed at those who show me rough and clumsy carvings that look feminine if you lay back one ear and squint, who tell me that this is what our primitive ancestors found attractive. Shenanigans. Show me a BBW in Egyptian art. Show me a BBW in Hellenistic art.

Though not a darwinist, I would agree that what we find hot is more or less hardwired.

I think it would only be fair for every man to pull out his wallet, and pull down his pants and we can accuratley rate the men. I’m sure most would come up short, in both monetary findings and length measurements.

So guys don’t ever believe it when a woman says size doesn’t matter….she’s lying through her teeth…nothing says happy lady like big cock….

I watched a pbs (!) special on art and the human body, and they talked about (though they never made this point, the evidence presented itself) how when cultures had great technological leaps in art, suddenly the human body as depicted came closer to our porn star images today.

At one point, Roman sculpture took a huge leap—mostly when Egypt was conquered, and the sculpture techniques and mathetmatical precision in art there was fused with Roman Art.

Roman art then was able to sculpt bodies that were beyond human bodies—i.e. bodies without tailbones so that the space could be there for the added six pack muscles, etc., that were more “beautiful” than older bodies.

So much of roman insecurities about bodies vis a vis art was driven by a literal impossible image—you couldn’t remove your tailbone or tone it like the sculpture.

Yet today we almost can do it—-plastic surgery can make big busted small waisted women a reality.

It was only technology that prevented the creation in art of the perfect woman. the human mind always had it; the human hand just couldn’t make it yet.

“No, I wanted a clear picture of what you find attractive. I guess you’re playing hide and seek.”
—you do not make demands here, ugly.

“Fine with me. ”
—apparently not, since you incessantly yap about it.

“I read the post but you didn’t post any pictues of a woman with your ideal body type.”
–irrelevant. He was talking about what was nto attractive ever: fat asses like you.

“Listing BMI doesn’t give a clear picture since two women of the same height can have different BMI’s but wear the same dress size.”
—dress size is something straight men do not care about. Waist to hip is.

Washington, D.C. has become the favorite area for wealthy young adults, with the nation’s highest percentage of 25-34 year-olds making more than $100,000 a year, according to a new analysis.

Arlington County, in Virginia near Washington, D.C. captured the second spot, followed by San Francisco, Manhattan and Douglas County, which is situated between Denver and Colorado Springs in Colorado.

I concur: Michelle Obama is not attractive by any measure that I recognize and use. She is, however, being very strongly pushed as the next Jacqueline Kennedy, which is amusing but ultimately annoying. Cindy McCain, even without an adjustment for age, wins the Presidential spouse contest for 2008 easily; Ann Romney would also have finished several laps ahead of Mrs. Obama.

As for the topic at hand, is attraction hardwired? That I don’t know—whether it is or not, I would suggest that the last decade or two has seen efforts at rewriting that attraction. There may have been a certain amount of success; for my part, I still like pretty much what I’ve always liked.

Could the medieval BBW exist outside of say, high class circles where there was enough food and idle time to get fat? I wouldn’t imagine that working dawn ’til dusk five or six days a week would leave a lot of opportunity to get plump, unless one was genetically predisposed to it.

I also agree that for a woman to gain weight, she destroys her SMV to such a degree that it is amazing that they do this to themselves.

For a young woman to become fat is about the same thing as a young man to suffer a brain injury that makes him lose his ability to earn an income. That is how much of a self-inflicted blow to their dating prospects a woman is inflicting by becoming fat.

by this standard, i am a fatass and probably a 3-4 on the looks scale because of the following:

–high cheekbones, large almond-shape eyes.

–chin is not pointy

–face is oval rather than round

–african-american (i.e., mostly west african and native american bloodlines)

–five feet tall, 110 pounds, but my ass is 36 inches against a 25 inch waist and 34 inch bust. i have a giant butt. that it is firm (i rock about 19% bodyfat) is meaningless by this Standard, because it is out of proportion which appears to be all that matters if you’re a black female.

i find it interesting that he considers hollywood starlet types with poor waist-hip ratios (being thin doesn’t magically give you that .7 or lower ratio) much more attractive than women who have the ratio but who have giant butts.

sigourney weaver has a similar facial type to michelle obama, but i don’t hear anyone going out of their way to say her face is a 1.

my honest assessment is that michelle obama is in the 4.5-5 range in the face and has a 7 figure due to working out. but i’m a girl, so i guess i must be seduced by the liberal media.

Potential hot chicks becoming fat can be excused if put in the context that hot chicks are mainly stupid followers of the herd mentality.

Everybody prefers Pizza Hut to tofu as long as it is sanctioned by society. It just tastes better and hotties are base, primal beings driven by unchecked sensual urges – like baby monkeys.

The real Machiavellian maneuver is revealed in the winners as fat n’ fugly triple chinners sabotaging hot ass by the siren call of Sonic Burger played to the tune of the Next Feminist Manifesto NYT Oprah Best seller.

Anytime you hear a claim that men in some far off time and place got their best boners for BBW, remind the speaker that BBW have lousy fertility. There are whole Medical Textbook chapters about the multiple increased risks and bad outcomes for BBW pregnancies. Men with such preferences would have been punished severely by Dr. Darwin.
The special horror of obesity in a young woman is what it says about her future. The odds that a twenty something will get thinner in 10-15 years time are not good. An overly plump 20 something is a trainwreck in the making. She will just keep getting fatter, most likely.
Smart guys would jump off it unless they want to be with a diabetic cripple in mid life.

If women want to know what appeals to men sexually as far as body type, there is an easy answer to that.

Ladies,

Go to your local porn store, and ask for which pornos are the best sellers/renters for the straight male market. Rent them and watch for two or three hours, fast forwarding to the babes and assess their bodies. I think that you’ll find hourglass figures with medium-to-large breasts, and firm&shapely derrieres pretty much rule the day.

There is a porn-star’s picture ladies. Look hard, hit the gym, and emulate.

Funny thing is I don’t see too many heifers in Egyptian hieroglyphics and these are the guys that invented beer.

Just finished watching the Black Narcissus (1947 classic), probably the most game I have ever seen on a movie screen ever. The lead male games a whole freaking convent and has nuns eating out of his hand. To cap it off he gets a nun to break her habit and ends up playing asshole game and tells her to fuck off.

feh. fwiw: I wouldn’t fuck Michelle with Barack’s dick. That’s not the point. If maintained thus, this will degenerate into yet another Race Rumble, with O levitating into the fray to shame you all with the Gospel then showing you the wounds on his hands, feet and side.

if so, have fun.

I prefer to think of Sigorney as fuckably hot in Heartbreakers with appropriate make-up to plaster over the sun damage. Never mind her pretentious East Coast name.

Thus brings me to the formerly, unspeakably hot Jennifer Love Hewitt.

[note how I bring discussion back to fatty fat fat]

Blazingly hot. Balloons into not so hot. Reminds Firepower of next door neighbor single moms.

But, all media comes to her aid when she gets clobbered for being a fucking sow at age 28 before even having kids.

There is no way.
NO Way she looks as good now.

But still, fat cheerleaders egg her on, hoping to bankrupt her remaining fuckability.

So let me get this straight, as a contrast to Rubens, a 17th Flemish painter, you present Goya, a 19th century Spanish painter? Not only that, you classify both as “late Medieval”, which neither of them are. The entire Renaissance stands between the Medieval and Rubens, all full of painters like Titian and Clouet who loved painting fatties. Take a stroll through the Oceania wing in the Met and then come tell us that artistic representations of women are evidence for a standard of beauty.

You don’t know what you’re talking about. Stick to women and leave art out of it.

LOL……………I guess my comment about checking out the porn that men watch as to a clue about what they are sexually aroused by was too hot to handle. Maybe it was the pictures of that uber-hot porn star I linked. Sorry R, but I felt it was the truth.

I dont think there is a better way to find out what men think is hot than to look at what the best selling porn to straight men is.

Re: Michelle Obama
Just how hot she is seems like a minor point compared to the fact that she obviously tries to be hot. That sends a strong signal that she respects Barack as a man. Or at least that she wants to send that signal.
The Obamas know what they are doing. Remember George Bush the 1st? Lots of people called him a “wimp”. He was anything but that. But his wife sent out loud signals that she did not respect him and so he was perceived as wimpish nonetheless.
R. Reagan was an actor by trade who avoided the military or any sort of nitty gritty work and everyone saw him as Macho-Man. Remember his wifey who kept herself in great shape and always looked at Ronnie with adoring eyes?
Michelle knows what to do in order to get 2 terms.

Re: Michelle Obama
Just how hot she is seems like a minor point compared to the fact that she is obviously trying to be hot. She is working hard with what God gave her and is open about it. That sends a strong signal that she respects Barack as a man. Or at least that she wants to send that signal.
The Obamas know what they are doing. Remember George Bush the 1st? Lots of people called him a “wimp”. He was anything but that. But his wife sent out loud signals that she did not respect him and so he was perceived as wimpish nonetheless.
R. Reagan was an actor by trade who avoided the military or any sort of nitty gritty work and everyone saw him as Macho-Man. Remember his wifey who kept herself in great shape and always looked at Ronnie with adoring eyes?
Michelle knows what to do in order to get 2 terms.

I was trying to tell you something but you would not listen.
Men are judged by how their women judge them. A wife who lets herself go is saying something about her guy. Whether you see “logic” in it or not.

I’m just unsure of why men think women don’t judge men on their looks, and ahem…endowments.

I score high in both your earlier judgment categories. Not so bad in looks either though not spectacular. Tall and dominant looking though, which are actually more important.

What women judge men by has only tagential relevance as to who they’ll screw. Girl talk is crap.

Men’s looks matter only way down the pile of things for the large majority of girls. They think otherwise; they’re wrong. They act differently. Women are attracted to men with a dominant edge. Playful dominance especially.

Some women want more muscles and some want more brain muscles. Some want gobs of money and others want social do gooder loving of him. But by and large women want playful dominance in a man; a man that can play her emotions and take her on dramatic roller coaster emotional rides. Make her feel ecstatic and worried about loosing him.

Cock size is mostly a poor created fetish that leads some women to think that the really big dicked man is more dominant. Almost all female sexual nerve endings in the vagina leaving aside the clitoris and pussy lips are very close to the entrance. Event the G spot is only a couple of inches in. Cock size is, except perhaps for the very poorly endowed, largely or entirely a psychological matter and one that’s largely porn induced in girls today. I’m saying this as someone a lot thicker and also longer than average.

Feminists as part of their campaign to belittle men under the banner of “judging them just as much” have added this area fairly recently. As though women haven’t always judged men more , they’re now just adding additional explicit dimensions to make their negative judging that much greater.

Your claim to not be a feminist is crap. Maybe you aren’t the most radical sort and distance yourself from some of them, but your thinking is deeply feminist influenced.

Where do you stand on the issue of plus-size models, such as those featured in Lane Bryant ads? They are not Rubenesque, they retain the .7 waist-to-hip ratio, yet they probably exceed the maximum BMI of 23 that you cite.

I agree wholly with you that male sexual preferences are not at all influenced by environmental influences, but I think you underestimate the variability of males, a principle which I know you know holds across categories – from height to IQ to specific sexual turn-ons. Those men who prefer women with 54-inch wide asses riddled with cellullite folds are surely outliers, or, less politely, freakish fetishists. But guys like me, who prefer Crystal Renn or Kate Dillon to Alessandra Ambrosio, constitute a minority perhaps, but a significant minority nonetheless, and women who are not thin, yet not obese either, would do well to remember we exist, instead of taking for granted that thin=beautiful.

By the way, I’m white, and I’ve met plenty of white guys who agree with me that Victoria’s Secret models are too thin. While environmental influences do not affect a guy’s yearnings, they do affect whether he chooses to reveal them to others, particularly his buddies, who he fears will accuse him of “going hogging” if states a preference for somewhat zaftig, jiggly women.*

Also, I agree with Thursday that “your own personal idiosycracies [are] showing through here”. I have noticed a tight anecdotal correlation between hard-charging, jerkish, type-A guys like yourself and a brutal intolerance for women not being thin. (I intend this description of you to be non-judgmental)

P.S. Thanks for this blog, I have learned more about women from you than from any other source.

*Such as Marilyn Monroe in her prime in “Some Like It Hot,” in which her ample ass quakes like a bowl of Jell-O.

Feminists as part of their campaign to belittle men under the banner of “judging them just as much” have added this area fairly recently. As though women haven’t always judged men more , they’re now just adding additional explicit dimensions to make their negative judging that much greater.

Indeed, Doug1.

A good example of this is Michelle Langley, who makes it a point to go on and on about cock size in a transparent effort to needle her male readers.

as one can see in the notorious alien photo, sigourney weaver also doesn’t fit the supposedly so-sacred waist-hip ratio, but is still considered well above a 1, 2, or 3.

that is hardly less attractive than this:

scrawny face, wrinkles, clear signs of scowl and junkie-sag, thin skin. cindy mccain as she is now is NOT more attractive than michelle obama as she is now. unless turkey-neck is ok if it’s a skinny white chick, i s’pose.

You want primary sources? I can send you links to all sorts of curvy women in paintings. I can’t remember the secondary source because it was from an art history class that I took last year and I don’t have those notes with me.

Not really, no. It has to do with *mate* selection, but mate selection is not totally based on sexual attraction, and never has been. But pure raw sex attraction has no relation to social class, either.

Pupu’s guess is that he used a male model, replaced the head with a smaller female head and added two perky boobs.

Pupu’s memory was somehow distorted because of the position of the bird (Zeus). Michelangelo’s bird is all over Leda. Da Vinci’s bird is more like a teddy bear, very hug-able. As a result, Pupu had remembered Michelangelo’s Leda the sexier one.

It is wrong to look at “art” to learn what gives the best boners to men. The better word is “pornography.”
Was Rubens getting paid commissions to make pornography? Not bloody likely. What he did was going to go on the wall of some rich persons house.

Mate selection among the higher classes was based on financial and political necessity, which is why the bride and groom were often arranged to marry as children, long before sexual characteristics would develop.

In these cases, a woman’s social status would be well known because noble or mercantile families are all aware of each other’s relative status.

So no, a woman’s size would not be a point in her favour. Especially if her parents were arranging the marriage with her future husband’s parents, as was often the case.

Kim
You are not completely wrong.
Status/desirability often is attached to certain kinds of abundance. In other words, if you obviously can afford to lose some desirability and still be desirable you are on top.
In times of frequent famine when starvation is a constant risk, being on the plump side of perfect is fine. It means you can lose 10-20 lbs and still be fuckable.
Today, en-lardation is the ever present risk. Therefore, being 10 lbs under is better.

Looks like I was wrong to assume that plus-size models had BMIs much higher than 23. After doing some Googling, I learned that Crystal Renn and Kate Dillon both have BMIs lower than 25, assuming their dimensions of 5’10″/ 165 lbs., and 5’11’/175 lbs., respectively, are accurate.

finefantastic has it right. I believe Michelangelo did use male rather than female models for his female nudes. Women willing to pose nude for male painters and sculptors were rare in the 15th century and for obvious reasons heterosexual men were more likely to encounter such women than gay ones were. Botticelli, himself homosexual, was a bit of an anomaly in this respect.

But Thursday is greatly mistaken. I don’t know whether M. ever had any sexual experience with women, and on balance think he probably did not (or he would have had a better idea of what women look like without clothes on), but he did not hate women and in fact sometimes fell in love with them. I’m not convinced that he was truly homosexual, unlike Leonardo who certainly was – but whose women always look feminine in their portraits.

Today, en-lardation is the ever present risk. Therefore, being 10 lbs under is better

Someone please go to a Walmart take a look of the mastodonic, shame-ignorant, lumbering protohuman forms, in shorts and tanktops, with a primodial ocean’s ecosystem in the viscuous pools of sweat between the folds of skin under each layer upon layer of flesh. Look at those misshapen forms burdened by bags of heavy fluid sloshing almost audibly under their stretchmarked skin.

How the fuck does the most powerful country on earth come to breeding these armies of she-golems, rumbling slowly like a tank past the cash registres and out into the parking lot.

It is a mistake to assume others aren’t listening, or don’t understand you, when they say you are wrong.

“Men are judged by how their women judge them. A wife who lets herself go is saying something about her guy.”

Totally.

Statement 1: If a wife turns into a warpig, she does not respect her husband. A implies Not-B.

I agree with this, as would most here, I think. The contrapositive of Statement 1 is this.

Statement 2: If a wife respects her husband, she does not turn into a warpig. B implies Not-A.

If one accepts the truth of a statement, one is logically bound to accept the truth of its contrapositive.

So far, I suspect that you and I would agree on the truth of statements 1 & 2. But you can’t get to your original statement from 1 or 2. You’ve made a fundamental logical error, at least insofar as you were proposing a universal.

To say that you believe Michelle respects Barry based on the fact that she keeps herself fit is logically invalid. You may, in fact, be correct about the statements “Michelle respects Barry” and “Michelle keeps herself in shape, because she respects Barry”. But the argument implicit in your first post is: “Only women who respect their husbands keep themselves in shape.” That is demonstrably false.

they were popular with people who like foetus/klint ruin/jim thirwell, throbbing gristle/chris and cosey, the swans, tear garden, download, nitzer ebb, front 242, die krupps, current 93, nurse with wound, coil, world of skin et al

Suck on this, squarehead
I hear you got a six inch guarantee of unilateral security
Well me and stalin, we just signed a mutual non-aggression pact
I’m gonna put case white into effect
Prepare yourself for a conflict baby
I’ll cook you a stew you’ll choke on
I tore up the versailles treaty
Today is the first of september
See you at your graveside, baby
I’ll meet you in poland, baby

I want to pump you full of burning lead
Cause six million casualties
Well i gave you a lot of slack – but all i get from you is flak
I’m gonna put case white into effect
Prepare yourself for a conflict baby
Passing information on to high command
We have ways of making you talk
Today is the first of september
See you at your funeral, baby
I’ll meet you in poland, baby

I hear you got a six inch guarantee of unilateral security
Well me and stalin, we just signed a mutual non-aggression pact
I’m gonna put case white into effect
Prepare yourself for a conflict, baby
I’ll cook you a stew you’ll choke on
I tore up the versailles treaty
Today is the first of september
See you at your graveside, baby
I’ll meet you in poland, baby
See you at your graveside, baby
I’ll meet you in poland, baby

Attractiveness in women can be defined as the range of looks that men will pay to have sex with (as opposed to be seen with). By that definition, Kim kardashian and your average hip-hop video ho beats out the pretty 30-something WASP woman every single time (unless you get erections from hearing about her mayflower heritage).

Whatever Michelangelo’s attitude towards women in real life, he did such horrible things to the female form that I can only conclude he hated it. He did have a close relationship with the older Vittoria Colonna, but she was more of a spiritual instructor to him than a romantic interest, in contrast to his erotic interest in handsome young men like Tommaso dei Calvalieri or Cecchino dei Bracci. Now, Michelangelo was iron willed, ferociously devout, and noted for his “monklike chastity,” and many of the young men he was interested in were strongly heterosexual, so it is open to doubt whether he actually had much of any sex with anyone. But he seems to have been pretty clearly homosexual in orientation.

As for Botticelli, he was accused of homosexuality, but that was a fairly common charge to be levelled against one’s enemies and Botticelli had made a few over that years. He reputedly had a huge crush on Simonetta Vespucci and requested that he be buried at her feet. But again that is kind of ambiguous, as, for example, we know that gay fashion designers can frequently be devoted to their models despite having their sexual interests elsewhere. So, the best we can really say is that Botticelli’s sexuality is unclear.

the term “BBW” is a joke because a majority of fat woman are insecure as hell about themselves and need constant positive reassurance from men about your weight.

one minute they’re fine the way they are, the next they
need to lose a few pounds.

woman think since they’re so heavily influenced than men have been influenced to (when it’s works in woman’s favor).
since a man is’nt attrated to a “BBW” he must be getting influence by another men not to be.

Men are not influence on what type of woman they should be attracted to.
it’s just woman wanting guys to change their standard to fit with what the woman offers.

other than a few of them,
i find the majority of supermodels unattractive (pretty faces but skinny as hell).

I agree. Rubens liked to paint fat women because you can do more interesting things with skin tone and shadow off rolls of flubber. This is the same reason why a muscular man is more challenging and pleasing to paint. It adds the illusion of depth to your subject. The other extreme of a starving body is similarly interesting to attempt from a technical standpoint. (i.e. all those starving images of Christ)

St. Paul tells us to be all things to all people, so Fatu-Hiva, here you go:

In my experience only a morbidly obese, butch tribadist who has recently helped bring Richard Gere to climax because she hate him for having a penis that she envies would use the phrase “one track mind”.

St. Paul tells us to be all things to all people, so Fatu-Hiva, here you go:

In my experience only a morbidly obese, butch tribadist who has recently helped bring Richard Gere to climax because she hate him for having a penis that she envies would use the phrase “one track mind”.

Humility is refreshing. I don’t believe you used any words incorrectly. I was intentionally writing above your level, which isn’t very fair. That is balanced, however, against the malice and bad faith of your first two posts.

“Straw man” is a term relating to logical arguments. I won’t define it here.

You snarled, “you are human garbage” before anyone had responded. You are clearly at war with us. Do not pretend that you had innocent intentions, for we are not deceived.

Humility is refreshing. I don’t believe you used any words incorrectly. I was intentionally writing above your level, which isn’t very fair. That is balanced, however, against the malice and bad faith of your first two posts.

“Straw man” is a term relating to logical arguments. I won’t define it here.

You snarled, “you are human garbage” before anyone had responded. You are clearly at war with us. Do not pretend that you had innocent intentions, for we are not deceived.”

Human garbage is a harsh thing, but I read his other blogs and am convinced the author is cruel and can be very sadistic, maybe incapable of understanding other perspective outside his own. I read something about his enjoyment of hurting a woman with anal sex, and this is not something that should be normal to any person. It is garbage to partake in enjoying harm to others. I wish no harm to anyone here, but I have much dislike of crazy people

aoefe: I think women are pressured NOT to be thin by other women (often chubby ones). In fact they’ll even point out you are selling women out by wanting to be good looking for men. It’s crap. Just sayin…

Cless Alvein: What? If anything, it’s women who give each other crap for not being thin enough, and who obsess over the tiny rolls of fat that men either don’t notice or consider assets.

Some women have begun defending obesity, yea unto morbidity. I have personal experience of this. It begins with an attempt to mitigate the pains of being grossly fat by declaring that there are no health consequences, that it is not a choice, and that the distaste of men for fat women is a social construct. It progresses to a state of complete isolation from feedback. It can then become a creed from which dissent is not permitted.

Kim Kardashian has her ass and thighs given a laser treatment that’s supposed to smooth out cellulite temporarily, which she gets any time she has a photo shoot or performs with the pussycat dolls. You can also put a tray on her ass and have her walk around without the tray falling. The entire female side of the family are easy to spot when they’re out in public but not standing next to the rest because of the prominent booty they all have. Even at like age 12.

“Doug1:
Some women want more muscles and some want more brain muscles. Some want gobs of money and others want social do gooder loving of him. But by and large women want playful dominance in a man; a man that can play her emotions and take her on dramatic roller coaster emotional rides. Make her feel ecstatic and worried about loosing him.”

Yeah, women are totally into guys who encourage them to display behaviors that oddly mimic that seen in mood or personality disorders. And would that be ecstatic about loosing him, or worried that they’re going to be ecstatic?

If anything, it’s women who give each other crap for not being thin enough, and who obsess over the tiny rolls of fat that men either don’t notice or consider assets

Not true. Women are bitchy about fat women behind women’s backs not to their faces. To their faces they say things like “oh you look amazing!” and “men looove curvy women!”. Yes women obsess for shizzle but they get encouragement to eat from women not men. Women want to be the thinnest in their group they don’t want anyone skinnier than they are. What I’m saying is true but I wonder if any woman will back me up on that…hmmmmm.

@Eumaois – “It begins with an attempt to mitigate the pains of being grossly fat by declaring that there are no health consequences, that it is not a choice, and that the distaste of men for fat women is a social construct. It progresses to a state of complete isolation from feedback. It can then become a creed from which dissent is not permitted.’

Penis size is a major plot point in Puzo’s original novel of The Godfather. This beautiful, but sad, girl goes with Sonny because he has a huge piece, and she has a huge place. When Sonny gets [spoilered], she is SOOOO sad, because she thinks no other guy want to have her. Fortuitously, she meets a plastic surgeon or gynecologist or something who intimately diagnoses her problem, and they sew her a smaller place.

Any guy who doesn’t believe size matters obvious has a small or average cock. If you have a big one, your experiences show you cock size indeed makes a difference to chicks. The more vehemently a guy protests about whether size matters, the more he’s revealing his size insecurity.

Joe
I think you are basically right.
However, there are other honest voices that say something different. For example, I do not think 90 lb. Asian chicks enjoy losing their virginity with a Certified Porn Star Cock. (Their crying gets to me every time). So when such girls beg off from biggness they are not lying by any means.
When women start to run up their body count they “loosen up” in many ways. They gain confidence in the way that all their parts kind of unfold and open up when the time comes and most of them lose their fear of getting stretch-injuries. Then, they might start admitting their deepest truths about this matter
If they have a kid, no worries. Indeed, that might be the answer to the question, “Why do skinny frail Human Males have a penis 4 times the size of a 500 gorilla?
Maybe it is that strethed out birthing canals need adequate pounding for subsequent lust-driven encounters to get the job done.

@Faolan
“To see that, you’d need to look at who wealthy men take for mistresses.”

Or you can take a look at Titian’s Venus of Urbino. She’s technically supposed to be the viewer’s mistress which you are supposed to be able to tell by the look she is giving. It’s also indicated by the women in the background who are either taking out or putting away her clothing, depending on how you view the situation. I would say she is pretty curvy, but not to the same degree as Rubens figures.

@Thursday
“Whatever Michelangelo’s attitude towards women in real life, he did such horrible things to the female form that I can only conclude he hated it.”

He didn’t do horrible things to the female form, he created it in his own fashion. As aliasclio said in her post, he WAS using the male figure to create the female figure. Having a female model would be scandalous beyond belief during Michelangelo’s time. Michelangelo was all about detail, you can see it in pretty much every piece he did..from the drapery in his Pieta to muscle form, he wanted detailed perfection and if he used a “typical” female form, he wouldn’t be able to provide the same amount of detail to muscle, etc. Speaing of his Pieta, google it and you’ll see that he CAN do your typical female form and it’s absolutely beautiful.

It wasn’t supposed to give comfort to a modern fat-chick…I just wanted Thursday to see that Michelangelo is capable of doing the feminine woman look since he’s in the mindset that he can only do “horrible things” to the female figure (probably because the only Michelangelo he has ever been exposed to is the Sistine Chapel ceiling). I don’t think anyone would want to see the Virgin Mary depicted as curvy or fat…it’d be weird and it wouldn’t make sense.

FWIW, Until the day I am married, I will continue to do anything I can to perpetuate this idea that male preference for thinness is culturally constructed to demean women. I also support restaurant and fast food culture and all efforts to make cooking seem like a dull, outdated and opressive activity for women.

Sorry not a femist. I know it would make you happy to think so…but I’m not. I agree with what is saying…I’m just unsure of why men think women don’t judge men on their looks, and ahem…endowments.

Because an ugly man with Game will do better than a handsome man with no Game.

Penis size matters, of course. On sites like Match.com, the only attribute of male appearance that women openly mandate as a requirement is height. Usually above 6’0″. The main reason for this (although this is unsaid) is penis size.

But overall handsomeness of a man is a minor factor in his success with women. Looks are, say, a 10% factor for men while they are a 95% factor for women.

Until the day I am married, I will continue to do anything I can to perpetuate this idea that male preference for thinness is culturally constructed to demean women.

That, of course, is only because you are a 5 in looks, despite being in your prime, age-wise. In India, you would get an average man as your husband, but over here, you are miscalculating your attractiveness greatly, and will be over 30 and unmarried, before long.

Everyone,

I want to draw your attention to what Indian civilization considered to be the optimal female body shape through over 5000 years of history. Note how little changes in human preferences over millennia.

fifth horseman, could you please restate your 4 or 5 horsemen? i would like to link to it, should i ever create a handle-namesake blog on wordpress that i do not seek free advertising from… if it was pertinent, of course…

Who are all these idiots claiming that Michelle Obama has a first lady aura about her?

If you’re going to bring up the topic of black women that have first lady auras about them, you have to talk about ladies like Halle Berry or Jada Pinkett Smith i.e. black women with enough white admixture to look presentable. Not a gross beast of a woman that looks like an androgynous angry Klingon or a crazed Tutsi woman hungry for Hutu blood.

If I am a 5, men have no one but themselves to blame for all the women who make absolutely no effort to cater to male tastes.

What nonsense is this? It is a WOMAN’s responsibility to make the effort compete with other women. Your sentence is illogical.

Virtually every man here, Indian and non-Indian, will rate you a 5. Count on it. Submit yourself to the next Female attractiveness poll over here if you are brave enough to face a real test.

Men sure have done a whole hell of a lot to inflate my ego if I am a 5.

It is likely that you are overrating some trivial things. Also, your lack of beauty probably saved you from much worse when you were mugged for your laptop. Since marriage is a priority for you, why are you not engaged yet?

most men would sooner date a woman who was 10 pounds underweight than a woman 10 pounds overweight.

I think one of your own personal idiosycracies is showing through here. The opposite is more likely to be true. Lest the fatties get too excited though, there are limits and they come up a lot faster than you think.

Yes. Ten pounds is not a huge amount, anyway. Anecdotally speaking, nearly every guy I know (save for one, but we’ll call him an outlier) would sooner date/fuck a girl with +10 pounds than one with -10.

Meh. Everyone has known for quite a long time now that geniunely good-looking women have a WHR of 0.7 and WHR is more-or-less fixed (just as everyone falls into the three basic body shapes: ectomorph, mesomorph and endomorph.). Hence a fuller-figure woman who has a WHR of 0.7 can still look good whereas a women who is stick-thin yet has no curvature (WHR ~= 1.0?) has no appeal. The debate of what makes a women good looking is pretty much over. What makse guys appealing to women is less obvious hence the issue of ‘game’.

that geniunely good-looking women have a WHR of 0.7 and WHR is more-or-less fixed

Yes. Look at those Indian statues in my 1:53 AM post from many centuries ago for confirmation.

Plus, all foreign TV shows, from China to India to Mexico to Brazil, show women that would be considered ‘hot’ by universally-known standards. That US feminists are arrogant enough to think they can change the laws of nature shows how drunk with self-importance they are.

Yes. Ten pounds is not a huge amount, anyway. Anecdotally speaking, nearly every guy I know (save for one, but we’ll call him an outlier) would sooner date/fuck a girl with +10 pounds than one with -10.

I like voluptuous women. In the old sense of the word “voluptuous”, before it was hijacked by fat chicks.
So, yeah, +10 would be better, unless the she’s one of those unfortunates who only gains weight in all the wrong places.

Sufficiently young women – (nerd alert) I’m thinking those whose ages start with “1” in both hex and decimal – can sometimes carry even twenty or thirty extra pounds really well, although they hit their expiration dates around the time the red comes off their driver’s licenses.

FWIW, Until the day I am married, I will continue to do anything I can to perpetuate this idea that male preference for thinness is culturally constructed to demean women. I also support restaurant and fast food culture and all efforts to make cooking seem like a dull, outdated and opressive activity for women.

Does this shit all come out here, in hydraulic fashion, because you can it really tightly in an attempt to seem (half-)normal on “dates”?

If you’re anything like this in person, especially with your at-best-middling looks, I can’t imagine that any halfway desirable man will stay even for the buildup, let alone the dénouement.

I like voluptuous women. In the old sense of the word “voluptuous”, before it was hijacked by fat chicks.

Too bad, you’re stuck with me.

@ Tood

But overall handsomeness of a man is a minor factor in his success with women. Looks are, say, a 10% factor for men while they are a 95% factor for women.

While I agree that looks are not as important in men as they are in women, I don’t think good-looking men should underestimate the amount of weight their looks carry. After all, good-looks are part of the reason people like Paul Janka think they have game.

I don’t think good-looking men should underestimate the amount of weight their looks carry.

Well, I am substantially above average in looks, yet did rather poorly with women until I learned Game. I know a few other guys like this too. The only other possibility could be that an Indian guy trying to date white women would have had a harder time 10 years ago than now, which means I am overestimating the impact of Game and underestimating the impact of societal changes.

I also did not know how to recognize IOIs that I would easily catch today. So Game enabled me to see opportunities that I was blind to before.

Conversely, the hottest women in college were usually *not* with the best looking guys, for reasons that we as Game students now know.

Even if they add 4 arms to a goddess at times, they still maintain a good body shape. Go to any art museum that has an Indian section, and you will see a consistent pattern of female uniformity, in both statues and paintings.

And not just Indian, but in Greco-Roman statues and Egyptian hieroglypics as well.

Well, I am substantially above average in looks, yet did rather poorly with women until I learned Game.

Pics or it didn’t happen.

—

No, but seriously — I see what you’re saying, however, I do think that substantially good-looking guys get away with a lot more in the way of “not having game” than do unattractive guys. I mean, in general, incredibly attractive people have a lot more leeway than do unattractive people. Fact of life. So, naturally, it will carry over a bit in terms of male-female dynamics, even if a guy’s appearance isn’t as important as a girl’s. Of course, there are always the good-looking guys who are just abominable when it comes to women, just as there are a few autistic hot girls.

Well, I am substantially above average in looks, yet did rather poorly with women until I learned Game.

Pics or it didn’t happen.

–

No, but seriously — I see what you’re saying, however, I do think that substantially good-looking guys get away with a lot more in the way of “not having game” than do unattractive guys. I mean, in general, incredibly attractive people have a lot more leeway than do unattractive people. Fact of life. So, naturally, it will carry over a bit in terms of male-female dynamics, even if a guy’s appearance isn’t as important as a girl’s. Of course, there are always the good-looking guys who are just abominable when it comes to women, just as there are a few autistic hot girls.

An “autistic hot girl” would still get plenty of hits, unless she did nothing but stay home and count toothpicks.
In fact, being on The Spectrum, even rather far to the right, would barely move the needle in the estimation of a sufficiently hot chick.

Well, let’s just say that I scored a respectable 8.2 on Amihotornot.com, am 6’3″ with very little body fat, and have been in small-time catalog photos for vendors selling suits and dress shirts.

But the point is, I did poorly until Game. Sure, maybe it was because I merely learned not to be shy about Kino escalation, or did not know how to identify IOIs, or whatever. Still…things were bad before Game.

Game is MUCH more valuable than looks, for a man. Few would dispute that.

But the point is, I did poorly until Game. Sure, maybe it was because I merely learned not to be shy about Kino escalation, or did not know how to identify IOIs, or whatever. Still…things were bad before Game.

Key question: How audibly Indian are you?

If you have the “slurpee accent” AT ALL, that is walking death in your interactions with American women.

In this world, we have seen that imbalances can last for a long time, and seem totally normal to most people. But when they correct, they correct fast. People then, in hindsight, wonder how anyone thought the bubble was normal. We saw this with the USSR, dot-com bubble, housing bubble, and Al-Qaeda network (which really is decimated relative to what it once was).

The Four Horsemen of Male Vengeance, that will converge by 2020 to correct the lopsided, abnormal, and quite accidental power advantage that women currently have over men are :

1) Game

2) Sex Technologies (3D/VR holograms, tactile interfaces, sexbots, etc.). Anyone who says this cannot compete with real women fails to consider that the artificial/virtual women will be engineered to be 10/10+s, while most real women are in the 4-7 range. This will greatly destroy the SMV of all women who are below an 8 in looks, forcing all women to learn how to provide real *love* to a man if they want any man to give them the time of day, as that is the only possible thing they have to offer that a sexbot cannot.

Since a Real 10 > Virtual 10 > Real 7, consider how the world changes when the ‘Virtual 10′ can be mass-produced on the order of millions of units..

3) Globalization (Islam, mostly). Muslims reproduce, and SWPLs do not. A Muslim woman at age 60 might have 10 grandkids, while an SWPL woman might have just 1. This causes a 10:1 population ratio tipover within just the 40 years subsequent to both women being single at age 20.

4) Men taking action to starve the beast (avoid marriage, move to Asia, work less hard due to high taxes on financial gains, go on organized strikes from work, etc.)

These are the Four Horsemen of Male Justice, all reaching critical mass by 2020. The messenger of these, me, thus becomes the Fifth Horseman.

I have written detailed cases for each in the past. I’ll try to search for those in the archives.

Also, I am going to write a big detailed analysis of these on my own blog, within the next 30 days.

age 17-20 : +10 lbs, you wear it well
age 20-22 : tony gwynn style; just bat for average you cute lil chubster
age 22-25 : – 10 lbs, to be safe

age 25+ : full time taoist gym rat or DONE

10 lbs is not very much (I gain about 7-8 lbs on the pill/during my period, after all), and if, at age 25+, she’s a full-time taoist gym rat, she’ll age prematurely. I’d say the best bet is to not fluctuate (i.e. stay within +/-10lbs) at all, save for baby weight.

An “autistic hot girl” would still get plenty of hits, unless she did nothing but stay home and count toothpicks.

I’m an average to slightly above-average looking nerdy girl, and I still get a decent amount of male attention as LTR prospects. I’m very social, and pretty well-adjusted, but I can be kind of diffident and overly academic at times. Plus, I was trained to speak in a formal tone, which exudes a deceptive stiffness of character.

I’m an average to slightly above-average looking nerdy girl, and I still get a decent amount of male attention as LTR prospects.

The big difference is that women get approached, while men have to DO the approaching.

That is why a man could have everything going for him on paper, and still get nowhere if his personality is introverted. While an extroverted man will do better with far fewer credentials in looks, wealth, intelligence, etc.

Whereas a woman like FeministX, who is a 5, can still get some male attention (which she in turn over-interprets as serious interest).

I think there are more marriage-worthy black women because black women tend to be a lot more “correlated”. If they’re thin, they’re usually gorgeous and take good care of themselves. If they’re intelligent, they usually have culture and class. The correlations among desired traits are much stronger. This means that there are more “straight A” women in the black community than among whites. There are also probably more “straight F” women (fat, loud, violent and mean ghetto bitches) but they don’t matter from the perspective of one seeking a marriage partner. From the perspective of marriage-worthiness, a straight-F ghetto girl or methed-out redneck is equivalent (marriage value = 0) to a Sex and the City yuppie-slut with A’s in looks, intelligence, and education but F’s in couth, culture, and chastity.

—————————————————————————

I’m not asserting any sort of cultural equivalency between (a) the fat, mean ghetto bitch, (b) the redneck meth-head, and (c) the Sex and the City yuppie slut. I’m only pointing out the fact that all 3 have exactly the same level of marriage worthiness: zero.

Fox, as usual, knows exactly what they’re doing and came up with their norm (something that’s both great for ratings but bad for society.)

The marketing for that show was quite nauseous as it glorified very obese women as being “normal” and “still desirable” (obviously to cater to the ever-growing blubber that watches TV in America.) And then found a young, very large 300+ pound guy (who admitted to having little dating experience) to spit out all of the “I want a woman for who she is on the inside/I like girls of this size” garbage cliches as he chased this herd for weeks on end.

Now all of the idealism that “some men prefer those kinda girls” is even more ingrained into the country’s psyche. And females who could really use a dose of reality will continue to be content with an unhealthy, unattractive appearance that will only attract the men who can’t get the girls they really want (or the ones who don’t have the confidence or desire to do so)

The original post is old, old news. Some of us in the spiritual community got a good laugh from it when the news first came out because it confirmed some hunches that some of us had long ago.

They were many, and almost none of them stood up, as an idol would. There also weren’t any stands or carriers for them. We suspected that they were either children’s toys or sacrificial symbols…maybe both. If I had to make a guess though, I’d say they were teethers. They look like something a baby would cut their teeth with. That would also explain why they’d be thrown away in the trash, when they were chipped, worn, or broken, rather than kept or buried respectfully.

None of this negates the fat actual idols of some cultures, but still…that some people jumped on a fat baby figure as a goddess representation rather than at best, an offering to a goddess, was kind of sad. It’s an example of something being taken out of context in the west, and bandied about as an excuse to abandon one’s own culture’s ideals in favor of some generic okayness with everything, regardless of how impractical or even harmful.

Aoefe says, “Yes women obsess for shizzle but they get encouragement to eat from women not men. Women want to be the thinnest in their group they don’t want anyone skinnier than they are. What I’m saying is true but I wonder if any woman will back me up on that…hmmmmm.”

I will. I and my daughter have entered a whole new world of b.s. from women since we lost enough weight that people notice. I don’t know if I mentioned the cookie debate with my daughter’s teacher last year. This year, her main teachers are fit, thank goodness.

For the guys dissing Michelle Obama, dudes…she’s in her 40’s. Stop eating the cougar hype. In her 40’s a woman should not be being judged on the same scale as 20 year olds.

Besides, whatever others may say about her looks, she’s married to the damned President of the U.S. You’re not the President. You’re basically putting down a woman who is so far out of your league that you look pathetic insulting her from the point of view of near insignificance.

Spunk, I’ll be the first to say that generally, men prefer women to be smaller, but I would stop short of claiming that men who like big women are unmanly. Some like big women because they are big men themselves. Just because their woman is bigger than some men doesn’t mean that she is too big for any man.

This is, in my opinion, one of the blind spots of multiculturalism. Everybody starts being required to conform to one generic standard, as if all humans have the exact same genetic potential.

Some people are tall. No amount of wishful thinking is going to make everybody the same height just to make some other people feel less intimidated by the tall. The same is true of body frame. It may not be healthy for anyone to be carrying too much fat, but what that is depends on their genes, not your desires.

So if you prefer women who are skinnier than the norm or fatter than the norm, it’s kind of irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. What’s important is that people don’t adopt behaviors that are unhealthy for them (overeating or starving) because of some screwed up generic template.

That screwed up thinking is what kept me fat for 14 years. Treating myself like an African/Native American woman who needs more activity and different food than a western European is what started taking the pounds off.

At the end of it, I still won’t be most White guys’ cup of tea. I’m well on my way to the “Klingon” look myself…and whoever doesn’t like it can kiss my ass. I’m doing what’s best for me, and even though “most men” won’t like it, I only have one vagina, so I only need one man.

If one man is happy with me at an optimal level of fitness for my age, then that’s all I need. Everyone else can fall off the face of the earth.

Obsidian, the reason guys complain about fat women is because we are surrounded by them, there is more of them every year, and that makes our habitat an uglier place every year. I am not in the market to meet women and yet I am as chagrined about the obesity epidemic as some single guy out there.

Your recommendations of good inner game is correct but besides the point. Your recommendation of moving to eastern europe is ridiculous. Your recommendation to “just find the woman you like” is let-them-eat-cakes.

The point of shaming obesity is to influence our women to start looking better. As free men and citizens, we don’t just withdraw, we take charge of the situation.

I have heard comments this year that she is the most beautiful first lady ever? Are people out of their minds? Kennedy?Laura Bush? Michelle Obama has so much going against her. – Big fat ass and hips, ugly africanized face and lips, huge mouth and teeth…omg she makes me sick thinking about her.

PA, you’re starting to sound like the SocialCons over at Ferdi’s blog, who tilt at windmills and get nothing actually done. The only person you can and should try to change is YOU. Period. Game teaches this, and not once have I ever read Style or Mystery doing a piss and moan about the chunky gals of America. They simply went where the hotness was-like Yugoslavia.

So, again, I don’t have a dog in the fight, makes me no nevermind either. All’s I’m saying is that if you want a certain kind of Woman, go to where they are. Anything else is bitching and moaning, something Women do.

To all those who insist today’s women are not fatter than in the past? Seriously, go to the bathroom and grab all your medicine and down them furiously.

There have been plenty of articles mentioning that the fashion industry has adjusted the sizes so as not to anger their customers. In the US, today’s size 12-14 was yesterday’s size 18-20.

Travel outside the country and do some shopping. Anyone can see the dress inflation in America. And I have my own anecdotal evidence. My first ex was from Europe and in her country she was a size 6. Once she came to this country she was surprised to learn that she was a size 2.

PA says, “Obsidian, the reason guys complain about fat women is because we are surrounded by them, there is more of them every year, and that makes our habitat an uglier place every year. I am not in the market to meet women and yet I am as chagrined about the obesity epidemic as some single guy out there.”

You’re complaining about fat women because your government is complaining about fat women.

Buzzwords based on half truths like “obesity epidemic” are signs of parrotting, not observation in the field.

…not that there aren’t too many overfat people…just that the uglifying bit is the sedentariness and consumption of junk phood. In that, the thin are riding the same ugly train as the fat, in the U.S. except for the odd natural eater of whatever weight.

“Your recommendations of good inner game is correct but besides the point. Your recommendation of moving to eastern europe is ridiculous. Your recommendation to “just find the woman you like” is let-them-eat-cakes.

The point of shaming obesity is to influence our women to start looking better. As free men and citizens, we don’t just withdraw, we take charge of the situation.”

It’s the equivalent of taking charge of a fire by throwing gasoline onto it. If you call someone worthless then it kinda makes them think they’re worthless to you. That they might be worth something to you if they looked different tells them that looking different would only make them *useful* to you, not valued.

If you want to help women lose weight, become a fitness instructor, and volunteer your service. All the hot hair wasted on insulting people could be put to better use instructing them.

Sounds nice, but it’s not true. Roissy has changed many a beta into a something closer to an alpha just by runing this site. And haven’t you been trying to change David Alexander into something more in your image?

Again, please read carefully — I’m not interested in picking up women so I am not going to visit Yugoslava. What I am interested in is repairing my habitat, thus while commenting on some blog, I will make arguments aganst obesity.

Or you can take a look at Titian’s Venus of Urbino. She’s technically supposed to be the viewer’s mistress which you are supposed to be able to tell by the look she is giving. It’s also indicated by the women in the background who are either taking out or putting away her clothing, depending on how you view the situation. I would say she is pretty curvy, but not to the same degree as Rubens figures.

Titian is a fine example. She’s definitely “curvy”, but nothing like most women who have co-opted that term today (such as your average “BBW”).

feministx

Until the day I am married, I will continue to do anything I can to perpetuate this idea that male preference for thinness is culturally constructed to demean women. I also support restaurant and fast food culture and all efforts to make cooking seem like a dull, outdated and opressive activity for women.

I can’t decide if you really hold these views, or if you’re simply trolling and this is a satire of feminist thought. I’ll bite though.

I can point to thousands of images of idealized females from different cultures – Indian, Minoan, Greek, Celtic, African – which all show a healthy (non-obese) body. Likewise, I can point to many examples where obese men were shamed into losing weight.

Restaurant and fast food “culture” can’t exist without someone to do the cooking. It’s only feasible to eat out every night if you live in an urban environment – something which the people who raise the food which goes to restaurants can’t do.

It’s also far more expensive to eat out than to cook. The amount of food wasted in a typical fast food joint is shocking. Consistently eating fast food is extremely unhealthy.

Faolan, if shame worked consistently, nobody would be fat. I can point to examples of men who prefer morbidly obese women, but they’re the exception, not the rule. Your being able to point to examples of people being shamed into losing weight bear about the same credibility.

In my opinion, the key is balance and truth. If people knew the truth about how to maintain their weight, nobody would be fat unless they had a health problem that prevented activity, or consciously chose to be fat.

I was one of those people who thought she was doomed and should just make the best of things. When I got the truth about what I should be eating, and how I should be living, things changed. It was simple, and I don’t feel deprived, shamed or pressured.

Who should be getting shamed are the people convincing Americans to eat like cows and diesel engines instead of humans.

You’re complaining about fat women because your government is complaining about fat women.

I am complainig about fat women because I see them every day and they repulse me to the core, like an oil slick repulses marine life in their habitat. As I remember the 1980s, lower class white women, for example, were slim and hot. Today virtually all of them are fat.

It’s the equivalent of taking charge of a fire by throwing gasoline onto it.

Not a good analogy. And in fact, properly “shamed,” girls/women will take measures to avoid obesity before it hits them. And parents will hopefully keep an eye on their kids’ weight so that they grow up into attractive adults. Never underestimate the power of gluttony and sloth over the human psyche, and shame as the only effective weapon against it.

If you call someone worthless then it kinda makes them think they’re worthless to you.

I don’t call them worthless; I call them repulsive. Hate the sin, love the sinner

If you want to help women lose weight, become a fitness instructor, and volunteer your service.

I did in fact turn my o m e g a male friend into a fitness enthusiast by inviting him to sign up at my gym. Now he’s become something of a fitness-preacher himself, proselytizing to anyone who will (and won’t) listen. Other than that, the only resources I have at my disposal is making sometimes shaming, and sometimes instructing, comments about the issue to people online.

Faolan, one of the primary principles of social engineering is that you have to have a direction to point your sheeple towards. “Lose weight” is not a direction. It is a result. To get them going in that direction, “Eat real food,” is a better order.

Shaming people into not eating the equivalent of industrial lubricant (a cause) would work much better than shaming them for being fat. If they don’t know the phood is what’s making them fat, and think it’s about just the calories and not the type of food, then all the fat bashing in the world isn’t going to help them.

They’ll lose weight for awhile, have mad cravings and/or get depressed, and then gain it all back eating more junk. They’d be better off with a plan that will last for life, and that if they go back on, they’ll suffer more than weight gain.

Try eating some chips fried in canola after a year of only using animal fat, olive, or palm oil…

Read the article – he makes a good point about how shame only works if people think that they’re in control of their actions.

In central Europe at around 200BC, you had a greater degree of control over your diet. You also weren’t bombarded by advertisements for high-calorie crap at all times.

In my opinion, the key is balance and truth. If people knew the truth about how to maintain their weight, nobody would be fat unless they had a health problem that prevented activity, or consciously chose to be fat.

Agreed. The main problem, in my opinion, is that it’s really easy to consume cheap, high-calorie food. Most people don’t really consider how much weight that drinking a few cokes a day will grant.

PA says, “I am complainig about fat women because I see them every day and they repulse me to the core, like an oil slick repulses marine life in their habitat. As I remember the 1980s, lower class white women, for example, were slim and hot. Today virtually all of them are fat.”

Why do you figure that is?

Do you think it happened because of fat acceptance?

Did fat acceptance put hydrogenated vegetable oils on the market?

Does the fat acceptance movement own any fast food chains?

Did they convince women that the ability to cook a nutritious meal was not a necessary home skill?

Come now…You and I both know none of the fat happened in a social vacuum. You’re attacking the result, not the cause, which is backwards.

“Not a good analogy. And in fact, properly “shamed,” girls/women will take measures to avoid obesity before it hits them.”

What measures? Where is this information supposed to come from?

I had to dig deep on the internet and be sick and watching the food channel at exactly the right time, to find out what measures would work for me.

How is someone poor who didn’t study biology supposed to figure it out? Telepathy?

Do you figure being told they’re ugly will teach them how to render chicken fat?

“And parents will hopefully keep an eye on their kids’ weight so that they grow up into attractive adults. Never underestimate the power of gluttony and sloth over the human psyche, and shame as the only effective weapon against it.”

Yeah, I learned alot about the human liver, and what it does with hydrogenated oils from being called a fat ass.

“I don’t call them worthless; I call them repulsive. Hate the sin, love the sinner”

That sounds like when my parents say that they don’t believe they’re better than other people just because they’re sure those people are going to hell.

“I did in fact turn my o m e g a male friend into a fitness enthusiast by inviting him to sign up at my gym. Now he’s become something of a fitness-preacher himself, proselytizing to anyone who will (and won’t) listen. Other than that, the only resources I have at my disposal is making sometimes shaming, and sometimes instructing, comments about the issue to people online.”

Well if shaming is the only resource you have at your disposal, then perhaps it’s one better not used. If your friend becomes an abusive prick, you haven’t done him any favors by helping him to become a prettier prick.

what has died is JUDGMENT. the most destructive words on earth are “who are you to say…?”the ethos of nonjudgmentalism, plus privacy, has allowed weaker willed people to give in to the worse parts of their character and to stuff themselves on cheap readily available food alone in their apartments. remember, if you read the 7 deadly sins, its really a list not of crimes but of bad character traits–what is obesity? sloth + gluttony squared

people used to NEVER be alone, other people watched them like hawks and were relentless in judging and advertising any impropriety, that why women feared getting fat or acting “forward”. it wasn’t simple”shame” on an individual level it was fear of not only abject humiliation in front of the whole community but also fear of spinsterhood which used to be an apocalyptic disaster for a woman, always a burden on family, never kids of her own, never experiencing love in her ENTIRE life.

I posted a comment in Dennins Mangan´s blog about why do every single HBD/game blog I go to seems to agree that the best diet is a high fat/low carb one and Dennis posted about it

Nicole talked about diets and I went to her blog. First, by her picture, she looks like na orca seen from above (orcas are black above and white below). Yet she thinks she is entitled about na opinion over diets. Guess which diet website she links to? A website defending the low fat/high carb dogma

Amazing. It seems that the greatest difference between the pro and anti HBD crowds is about the low/high fat & high/low carbs diets

Faolan, I’m with you on that. Besides, fast food didn’t used to be quite as bad when they were preparing food that was actual food.

It used to be a treat that was a treat…something people did every once in awhile, not every day. They’re businesses, and they’re supposed to advertise, but people are also supposed to use their own good sense. Their kids aren’t supposed to be being raised by the television.

The non cooking has done way more damage than the presence of fast food. They’d serve real food if they got enough pressure from consumers to do so.

I’d love to be able to go to McDonalds and get some beef filet brushed with real butter and a real salad in 2 minutes.

There have been plenty of articles mentioning that the fashion industry has adjusted the sizes so as not to anger their customers. In the US, today’s size 12-14 was yesterday’s size 18-20.

This is also true for men’s sizes. I have noticed that men’s pants with waist size 33 and 34 sold today can be as much as 3 inches wider in the waist than those from 10-15 years ago. This can’t be an illusion due to inconsistent sizes between brands, because I’ve been buying the same few brands all these years, and I have plenty of old ones in my closet to compare with.

“I’m not asserting any sort of cultural equivalency between (a) the fat, mean ghetto bitch, (b) the redneck meth-head, and (c) the Sex and the City yuppie slut. I’m only pointing out the fact that all 3 have exactly the same level of marriage worthiness: zero.”
—So, Cless, you were positing that they had a cultural quivalence: a marriage worthyness of 0.

a lot of people with weight problems simply eat well past sateity for the simple pleasure of taste. when they go on a low fat diet they not only have to restrict their portions, which in itself is difficult, they also never feel sated for lack of fat (taste). this leads to deprivation binging, which causes a feeling of shame and failure which is instantly ameliorated by…more binge eating–which leads to another failed attempt at a low fat diet, and on and on ad infinitum

what has died is JUDGMENT. the most destructive words on earth are “who are you to say…?”

Yet if someone complains about antisemitism, racism, misogyny or anything else that you’re okay with or passes judgment on the quality of the comments on this blog like Ruby did above, you are constantly one of the first people to say “who are you to say…?”

You should clarify that judgment is necessary except when the topic is something you support, at which point judgment sucks.

Nicole, blaming corporations (whom I loathe — the French guys who arsoned the new McDonalds in the 1990s are my heroes) can only take you so far. I shop at the same grocery stores the fat women do. And nobody in my family is fat. This includes women after 2-3-4 children.

And I am not an ascetic either. I drink lots of beer. And yet I have a flat stomach. But without working out, walking a lot on weekends, and eating right, I’d be sporting a middle aged man belly. Which I don’t

One hint: in the PA household, there is no such thign as potato chips.

This, I agree with. It works a whole lot better than the one trick pony of shame. It also works best if everybody is using theirs.

Gig says, “Nicole talked about diets and I went to her blog. First, by her picture, she looks like na orca seen from above (orcas are black above and white below).”

You didn’t see the transformation from the old site. If you know where I started, you’ll have more appreciation for where I am.

Also, you should know that I’ve lost 10 more kg. since my most recent photo at the new site. My boyfriend just doesn’t want me posting photos of myself on the internet anymore. I’m hoping he’ll change his mind on that because it really is for the greater good, and not just vanity.

“Yet she thinks she is entitled about na opinion over diets. Guess which diet website she links to? A website defending the low fat/high carb dogma”

Which site is it? I link to a few, and mine isn’t promoting hi carb/low fat dogma. I hope Kathleen Daelemans hasn’t gone that direction.

remember, the real quote is “judge not LEST YE BE JUDGED”–i am fully prepared to be JUDGED but not to be CENSORED. certainly you know the difference

judgment is a GOOD thing. lack of judgment is bad. what people perceive as racism sexism etc is usually just judgmentalism.

i dont care about ruby’s “judgment” i care about his apparent agitating to have the ACTUAL, PHYSICAL freedom of the comments section taken away with moderation and censorship. his opinion on the quality of the comments is fine. in perfect consistency with all my other opinions i do NOT advocate putting BBWs in concentration fat camps, just making judgmental statements about them. see THAT would be an analogous situation to ruby’s lil sock puppet campaign.

PA: Sounds nice, but it’s not true. Roissy has changed many a beta into a something closer to an alpha just by runing this site. And haven’t you been trying to change David Alexander into something more in your image?

O: No, I haven’t been trying to change DA; the only person who can do that is himself. What I’ve done is offer commonsense and highly effective advice in the form of counterarguments to many of his inane statements.

As for Roissy’s assistance to Betas, w/all due respect I think its an apples and oranges comparison. Roissy genuinely cares about Men; he shows bitter contempt of fat Women, there’s a difference. Compare and contrast the varying posts. Now again, I don’t have a dog in this fight, it doesn’t impact my life one way or another. All I’m saying is that Roissy, and you, for that matter, can afford to indulge in this “Hate On The Fatty” thing, because both of you can get laid pretty much whenever you want, w/the kinds of Women you want. However, if the rest of the guys reading and commenting along aren’t in the same boat, then thy might want to consider doing something that actually gives them a better return on investment, because hating on fatties ain’t gonna make them better at Game, and thus get laid with the Women of their choice. In short, it’s a waste of time and a Fool’s Errand.

I say again: neither Mystery Method nor The Game says anything about attempting to “shame” anyone into doing someone for you. Both books are geared toward helping the reader change himself. Period. I read both books, studied them closely, applied what they offered and got the desired results. And just about any Man reading this-including Dave Alex-can do same. The. End.

PA: Again, please read carefully — I’m not interested in picking up women so I am not going to visit Yugoslava. What I am interested in is repairing my habitat, thus while commenting on some blog, I will make arguments aganst obesity.

O: Where those who need to hear it most won’t know or care about your or anyone else’s “efforts” to “repair their habitat”. PA, please. I’m with Nicole on this one, if you’re really serious about obesity in America go rally all the guys here and file a class action lawsuit against guys like Archer Daniels-Midland or something like that. There are plenty of lawyers who can do the work pro bono. Or go and become a fitness instructor at an all ladies’ gym. Do something constructive, if you really, truly give a damn. Instead of merely sounding off on a blog.

Dana, thing is, there’s already quite a bit of judgemental attitude in the direction of fat women. There’s a point when the person making the judgemental statement has to be conscious of their true objective.

I haven’t had a guy go beyond a certain point of fat bashing without telling me that I’m worthless as a human being, and should go kill myself for being so fat and ugly.

The first time anyone said something like that to me, I was 109 lbs. at 5’4″.

Deep Thought,
Tru dat. One of thee most hung Men working in Porn is called “Mandingo” and rivals Lexington Steele in that regard, who is considerably taller than Mandingo, who is only 5’8″.

That said, a Woman’s *stated* preference for a taller Man is well known, but, as TFH an others rightly point out, a Man with highly effective Game will easily overcome that. My current lady, Brown Sugah, is 5’10” and played both basketball and volleyball in highschool and college. I’m 5’8″. I’m the first Man she’s ever had who is shorter than herself, and the Best Man she’s ever had, too by her own admission. When I asked her why her response was because of the way I carried myself; most shorter Men who tried to step to her in the past let her height intimidate them. The Obsidian specializes in the taller ladies.

that’s it. not the content of their character, not even the color of their skin. the boner is all. as the ugly shrill old women of the baby boomer generation increase their hold on the reins of power in this country i predict more male rebellion and refusal to participate in a society run by and for them and their comfort in old age (cf. ‘healthcare’). if it was up to men old used up women would probably be put in gas chambers unless they are their moms

i am astonished that men have said that to you and girls in high school in the EIGHTIES called you a nigger to your face. you are obviously living in a parallel reality to mine that i have no access to. i was never a great beauty, though i have huge green eyes that go a long way and my weight fluctuated wildly through my youth and i was never ONCE abused by a man in that fashion.

“The first time anyone said something like [I’m worthless as a human being, and should go kill myself for being so fat] to me, I was 109 lbs. at 5′4″

Another reason men tend to judge overweight people harshly is that the obese have a tenuous relationship with the truth. This is probably unfair to the merely gluttonous, as the sort of self-deception I’m thinking of here is accompanies eating your feelings, not eating for purely hedonic sensation.

Eumaios says, “Those lucky people who pay attention to what hunger feels like, who stop eating when they’re not hungry?

This isn’t another version of the will power argument. I’m arguing that fat people have lost an important sense.”

I’m sure that one of the ways they lost it was eating fake food. It’s apparently a reversible condition, except in the rare person with a legit eating disorder.

…and I believe that people with that disorder are much, much more rare than is currently hyped. I’ve got more issues than the magazine table in a dentists’ office, and lost any desire or ability to overeat within a couple of months of mildly naturalizing my diet. I didn’t even go extreme paleo.

Everybody I know who’s done it reports the same. People who used to eat a giant bowl of cereal in the morning are happier with an omelette and a salad, and do not get hungry or have any snacking cravings until the afternoon.

Some people can eat unnatural phood without breaking their body’s checks, but many people can’t. I think there’s something specific to African, Asian, and Native American people that we have to have something that’s in foods that have saturated fats to trigger a fullness sensation based on calories rather than food weight or volume.

Other men judge a woman’s worth by her marriageability. After that, it’s her conduct as a wife and mother. They judge her fuckability by her fuckability, which is not the same as value, as much as women would love to think otherwise.

One of the things I like about this blog is that, whatever other disagreements we may have, few of the guys here share their peers’ confusion.

“that’s it. not the content of their character, not even the color of their skin. the boner is all.”

Sure, in a brothel.

“as the ugly shrill old women of the baby boomer generation increase their hold on the reins of power in this country i predict more male rebellion and refusal to participate in a society run by and for them and their comfort in old age (cf. ‘healthcare’). if it was up to men old used up women would probably be put in gas chambers unless they are their moms”

Do you really hate men so much? I hope you’re being sarcastic in this post, and I’m just missing it in the tone.

“i am astonished that men have said that to you and girls in high school in the EIGHTIES called you a nigger to your face. you are obviously living in a parallel reality to mine that i have no access to.”

You do have access to it. I’m in Facebook, and have friends from the military, high school, and probably a couple from elementary there. Kids are pretty cruel if their parents are.

“i was never a great beauty, though i have huge green eyes that go a long way and my weight fluctuated wildly through my youth and i was never ONCE abused by a man in that fashion.”

That’s an exaggeration, unless you’re talking pure id. I’ll treat a plain girl with a good attitude well, but a hot bitchy one with coldness. Even if the latter gives me a huge wood and the former doesn’t.

Not really. Only western men are that confused.

Cheap, random swipe. If there is anything history teaches you is that Western men are the best in every regard.

Eumaios says, “Another reason men tend to judge overweight people harshly is that the obese have a tenuous relationship with the truth. This is probably unfair to the merely gluttonous, as the sort of self-deception I’m thinking of here is accompanies eating your feelings, not eating for purely hedonic sensation.”

Well, when fat becomes an insult used against people who are skinny or underweight, it’s difficult for someone to know what the truth is. They’ve been lied to so much.

Girls who (like me) were not ugly or fat but just not socially preferred, surrounded by shrill faggots who actually judge women’s beauty by their social status since they can’t muster the testosterone to select for themselves, will come to the understanding that how they look doesn’t matter. They will never measure up. They’re being alienated and have no chance.

It’s not until they get out of faggotland and around some men who do have balls that they realize the truth. Then, if they are already fit, or get fit, they have a chance of getting a guy whose idea of fat is more clinical and less social.

…but from the looks of things, Fagtopia where women’s social status determines whether they are fat or not, rather than at least the other way around, is spreading.

Other men judge a woman’s worth by her marriageability. After that, it’s her conduct as a wife and mother. They judge her fuckability by her fuckability, which is not the same as value, as much as women would love to think otherwise.”

—lmao rofl. You’re right. That’s what all those raping and pillaging soldiers were looking for when they moved from town to town. marriageability! lol

“Say that when your state government decides you can’t assemble a computer without a license.”
—–in the universe where this makes sense, please phone home and explain how warpig’s lack of sexual desireability has soemthing to do with computer construction.

Nutcase.

“Then I will have failed.”
—you failed long before that, tubby.

“Until then, so long as people like me hold the line,”
—this ain’t war, warpig, this is a beat down

So many people in the U.S. are overweight because processed food is consumed en masse. As opposed to food in its natural, unadulterated state. Processed food (made in a factory rather than just straight from the farm) is laced with opiates and neurotoxins. In other words, it is designed to be addictive and fuck with your body chemistry. Addictive foods = eat huge amounts = huge profits. Screwed body chemistry = sick all the time = need the doctor and pharmaceuticals all the time = huge profits. That’s why once processed food has hold of you it’s very hard to break the addiction. Unless you take specific steps reboot your metabolism. It’s like reimaging your body chemistry back to its factory settings. Doctors know all this but very few will speak up (risk of silenced and blackballed by the AMA and healthy people don’t go to a doctor).

I have to say I mostly agree with this post. Except that it’s obviously not true, from what I see every day, that BMI and WHR (within certain parameters – if you ‘look fat’ it’s a dealbreaker for many, but it doesn’t matter what your actual BMI is. A girl with a BMI of 21 can look chubby depending on her frame, weight distribution, body fat %) make a huge difference in the sexual selection of most guys. I have a friend who’s very much in demand, an athletic flirty blonde.
She’s 5’3″ and 140 lbs (BMI: 26.6). Her measurements are 36-32-38 (WHR: .84). But she has a flat stomach, a perky ass, the most perfect breast I’ve ever seen. Guys are falling all over themselves every day hitting on her, proposing marriage. And they all say she looks ‘too skinny’ when she gets down to 130 at the beginning of field hockey season…

As far as clothing sizes, as roissy said they vary wildly from store to store. Calling someone a ‘size 8′ is utterly meaningless. I have clothing labeled from 00 all the way up to 12 (in vintage).

And clothes are getting bigger every year. In 1999 I measured 30-22-32 and fit a size 0-2 in most mainstream stores (Gap, Limited, Victoria’s Secret).

Now, I measure 31-23-34 and am completely sized-out of all ‘women’s’ stores. I barely fit a 00 at stores geared towards teens (and my arms and legs are too long to shop in children’s – I am a perfect size 12-14 in most kid’s brands). If I don’t gain significant weight in a few years I wonder how I will shop for anything that isn’t stretchy.

Rum asked: “Why do skinny frail Human Males have a penis 4 times the size of a 500 gorilla?”

Female whoreishness. The silverback gorilla has no competition for sex since he brutalizes any potential competition, thus genital size makes no difference whereas muscle mass does. In places where there is a longer history of female skankdom, the guys are all fucking the same chicks. The guys who can deliver the bigger load and who are sought out for sex by the girls get the most offspring.

Dana, though I doubt food is purposefully laced with straight up opioids, many processed foods have obviously been spiked with extra “exorphins”. These are chemicals in foods or derivatives that trigger an opiate like reaction in the body. Gluten from grains and milk protein are examples of this.

It’s kind of a good thing in a whole food, but when a food has been processed specifically so that it will have more exorphins or other chemicals that can trigger craving (like msg), it’s hard to argue that this was somehow accidental.

Lurker running faster still on his little hammy hamster wheel, “—still no explanation for your nonsensical computer construction comment, then? And instead make up another nonsensical one? well done, fattie.”

It’s not nonsensical. Anyone who knew me well enough to gauge my value as a woman and as a human would know exactly what I was talking about.

Since you’re so sure that you’re much better than me, bring your stats. What have you done for your world aside of provide free fertilizer?

“—fag. but at least your mom could keep a man.”

If my dad’s a fag, that must make you his bitch. You can’t even handle me.

:It’s not nonsensical. Anyone who knew me well enough to gauge my value as a woman and as a human would know exactly what I was talking about.”
—now see female arrogance at hand. We all have to study everythign about ehr life to udnerstand her nonsensical quotes.

tjf much?

“Since you’re so sure that you’re much better than me, bring your stats. What have you done for your world aside of provide free fertilizer?”
—skewered a delusional warpig like you.

“If my dad’s a fag, that must make you his bitch. You can’t even handle me.”
–actually, your father and your ex husbands are my bitches, ho.

If Venus of Willendorf is a fertility symbol, it must be a very stylized one. Women of her proportions are aplenty these days, and at their weight, they often have difficulty with conception and carrying to term.

“If Venus of Willendorf is a fertility symbol, it must be a very stylized one.”

That was my point. I actually doubt she was based on any real female figure in the environment at all (or if she was, it may have been a religiously significant gavage figure).

“Women of her proportions are aplenty these days, and at their weight, they often have difficulty with conception and carrying to term.”

Except for the ones that don’t realize they’re pregnant and give birth into the toilet…

Also …. there’s fat and there’s fat. Women outside the US often gain weight as they age, but its’ ….. hard fat and it’s possible for a woman to carry that well to a certain point.

What’s new is the epidemic of jellow-y soft fat. I even think there’s a theory that a certain kind of obesity is caused by a virus (attested in chickens which gives them rolls of jellow-fat very much like that found in couch potatoes).

Opioid peptide
Opioid Peptides are short sequences of amino acids that mimic the effect of opiates in the brain. Opioid peptides may be produced by the body itself, for example endorphins, or be absorbed from partially digested food (casomorphins, exorphins and rubiscolins). The effect of these peptides vary, but they all resemble opiates. The opioid food peptides have lengths of typically 4-8 amino acids. The body’s own opioids are generally much longer.
Brain opioid peptide systems are known to play an important role in motivation, emotion, attachment behaviour, the response to stress and pain, and the control of food intake.

Casomorphins and Gliadomorphins- The Food Opioids
Dear Friends,
I just received the two links below from a friend suffering from this exact issue. These morphine-like substances (casomorphins and gliadomorphins) that we derive from dairy and wheat, respectively, are critical to our understanding of the power of these two foods. They help to explain why 75% of the calories in the standard American diet (SAD) come from these wheat and dairy alone. Food addiction is a very real thing and these opiods play a huge role.

As noted in one of the articles, many autistic children are completely addicted to wheat and dairy, which is consistent with the idea that we become addicted to what will make us ill (cigarettes, drugs, alcohol and food ). There are no healthy addictions and food is no exception. If an individual feels like they cannot give up cheese or bread, then they are very likely to be having a problem with one of these foods. I counsel people like this all of the time and can use that dependency to help them see that those very foods are a major contributor to their IBS, arthritis, depression, or other typical signs associated with food intolerance. And withdrawal from these foods can lead to classic drug-withdrawal symptoms as the articles below point out.

These sedating compounds are also the single biggest contributing factor to post-meal drowsiness. I have proven this in my own life as I used to become extremely sleepy after meals starting in my late 30’s. My wife was beginning to think I was a narcoleptic. I would literally pass out during our favorite TV show. I no longer exhibit this annoying and even dangerous symptom now that I am gluten and dairy-free. In fact, it has been stated that more people die from falling asleep at the wheel while driving than from alcohol-related accidents. What could be doing this? What could keep us from doing the most important thing (staying awake) while driving down the Interstate at 65-80 mph? Now you know. Throw alcohol into the mix and you have a tragic situation just waiting to happen.

We need to become very familiar with these two terms. I have yet to casually meet anyone who has heard them over the seven years following my first encounter with them in the literature…not a doctor nor a lay person. Amazing. And yet they play a vital role in the lives of the multitudes, contributing to food addiction, clinical depression, chronic fatigue, caffeine addiction, autism, highway deaths, and more.

High-fat, high-sugar foods alter opioid receptors-new study
7/28/09, Portland, OR. Overconsumption of fatty, sugary foods leads to changes in brain receptors, according to new animal research at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. The new research results are being presented at the 2009 annual meeting of the Society for the Study of Ingestive Behavior (SSIB). The results have implications for understanding bulimia and other binge eating disorders.

Dr. Bello and colleagues report that either continuous eating or binge eating a high fat, high sugar diet alters opioid receptor levels in an area of the brain that controls food intake. Opioids are a family of chemicals with actions similar to those of morphine; however, opioids exist naturally in the brain and have been linked to feelings of pleasure and euphoria. “These results are interesting because we saw changes in opioid receptor gene expression in a brain area that controls how much we eat during a meal”, said Bello. The new findings suggest that overconsumption of highly palatable foods maintains bingeing by enhancing opioids in the brain, and that increased opioids could be a factor involved in binge eating disorders. These findings may help to understand the biological basis of eating disorders.

Opioids and food intake: distributed functional neural pathways?
Abstract:
Agonists of the mu, delta, kappa and ORL(1)opioid receptors increase food intake while opioid receptor blockade decreases food intake. The majority of the collected data related to opioids and feeding has led to the speculation that opioids are involved in meal maintenance and orosensory reward; however, some data suggest that opioids may impact feeding associated with energy needs. Based on the wide distribution of CNS opioid receptors and the presence of other neuropeptides in the vicinity of opioidergic pathways, it seems likely that opioids affect multiple feeding systems. For example, opioids in the hindbrain might be involved in both sensory and metabolic aspects of food intake, those in the amygdala in processing of ‘emotional’ properties of foods, and those in the hypothalamus in energy needs. In this review we present data which support functional diversity of opioids in feeding behavior.Copyright 1999 Harcourt Publishers Ltd.
Citation:
Opioids and food intake: distributed functional neural pathways?
Glass MJ – Neuropeptides – 01-OCT-1999; 33(5): 360-8
MEDLINE® is the source for the citation and abstract of this record
NLM Citation ID:
10657513 (PubMed ID)
Full Source Title:
Neuropeptides
Publication Type:
Journal Article; Research Support, U.S. Gov’t, Non-P.H.S.; Research Support, U.S. Gov’t, P.H.S.; Review
Language:
English
Author Affiliation:
Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Minnesota Obesity Center, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN, 55455, USA.
Authors:
Glass MJ; Billington CJ; Levine AS
Number of References:
85

New Research Finds That Bingeing Increases Opioids In Brain Area That Controls Food Intake
Overconsumption of fatty, sugary foods leads to changes in brain receptors, according to new animal research at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. The new research results are being presented at the 2009 annual meeting of the Society for the Study of Ingestive Behavior (SSIB), July 28 – August 1, 2009, the foremost society for research into all aspects of eating and drinking behavior. The results have implications for understanding bulimia and other binge eating disorders.

Dr. Bello and colleagues report that either continuous eating or binge eating a high fat, high sugar diet alters opioid receptor levels in an area of the brain that controls food intake. Opioids are a family of chemicals with actions similar to those of morphine; however, opioids exist naturally in the brain and have been linked to feelings of pleasure and euphoria. “These results are interesting because we saw changes in opioid receptor gene expression in a brain area that controls how much we eat during a meal”, said Bello. The new findings suggest that overconsumption of highly palatable foods maintains bingeing by enhancing opioids in the brain, and that increased opioids could be a factor involved in binge eating disorders. These findings may help to understand the biological basis of eating disorders.
Supported by NIH DK19302 and DK078484
Lead author: Nicholas Bello, Dept. of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD, USA
Co-authors: F. CASSEUS, M.T. CHUANG, B.A. MITCHELL, Z.W. PATINKIN, P. SINGH, T.H. MORAN. Johns Hopkins University, School of Medicine, Dept. Psychiatry and Behavioral Sci., Baltimore, MD, USA
Source:
Jamie Price
Society for the Study of Ingestive Behavior

Reward systems and food intake: role of opioids
B A Gosnell1 and A S Levine1,2
1. 1Department of Food Science & Nutrition, University of Minnesota, Food Science & Nutrition, St Paul, MN, USA
2. 2Office of the Dean, College of Food, Agricultural and Natural Resource Sciences, University of Minnesota, St Paul, MN, USA
Correspondence: Dr AS Levine, Minnesota Obesity Center, University of Minnesota, 277 Coffey Hall, 1420 Eckles Avenue, St Paul, MN 55108-6074, USA. E-mail: aslevine@umn.edu
Abstract
Humans eat for many reasons, including the rewarding qualities of foods. A host of neurotransmitters have been shown to influence eating behavior and some of these appear to be involved in reward-induced eating. Endogenous opioid peptides and their receptors were first reported more than 30 years ago, and studies suggesting a role of opioids in the regulation of food intake date back nearly as far. Opioid agonists and antagonists have corresponding stimulatory and inhibitory effects on feeding. In addition to studies aimed at identifying the relevant receptor subtypes and sites of action within the brain, there has been a continuing interest in the role of opioids on diet/taste preferences, food reward, and the overlap of food reward with others types of reward. Data exist that suggest a role for opioids in the control of appetite for specific macronutrients, but there is also evidence for their role in the stimulation of intake based on already-existing diet or taste preferences and in controlling intake motivated by hedonics rather than by energy needs. Finally, various types of studies indicate an overlap between mechanisms mediating drug reward and palatable food reward. Preference or consumption of sweet substances often parallels the self-administration of several drugs of abuse, and under certain conditions, the termination of intermittent access to sweet substances produces symptoms that resemble those observed during opiate withdrawal. The overconsumption of readily available and highly palatable foods likely contributes to the growing rates of obesity worldwide. An understanding of the role of opioids in mediating food reward and promoting the overconsumption of palatable foods may provide insights into new approaches for preventing obesity.

Again, I’ve had Eastern European guys (not the majority but a sizeable minority) tell me they like heftier girls (not massively obese but about Cloe Marshall size, or a bit smaller).

The only tangible reason was body warmth during cold winters (and that given jokingly) but traditionally that size had a following – maybe memories of wartime and communist privation and ration cards play a role.

did it occur to anyone the “fertility” they were propitiating htose fat statues for was the fertility of the HARVEST to MAKE the people fat, NOT the fertility of the FAT women themselves? not uman fertility–food fertility

Body fat percentage and BMI are not linked in any meaningful way. Low BMI and fertility are not significantly linked – underweight women are as likely to get pregnant as ideal-weight women, although they have a slightly higher rate of complications. Overweight and obese women have many more problems in both these areas than underweight women.

I am underweight (BMI 17.5), with 19% body fat (close to the female ideal of 20-22%) last time I was checked. When I started my regular menses I had a BMI of 14.3. I have a reproductive system that seems in better working order (very regular periods all my life, no conditions diagnosed) than most of my ideal weight to overweight friends (many of whom are highly irregular periods due to poor diet, eating disorders, or hormonal conditions like PCOS and progesterone deficiency).

Let’s not forget that ‘underweight’ and ‘overweight’ don’t mean ‘what I don’t think looks sexy’. They are medical definitions based on BMI, not body fat percentage. All runway models, most VS models, and many celebs considered ‘hot’ are technically underweight.

Whoa–lot o’ comments! To sum up:A)Yes Michelle is a dog. And imagine her close up,her skin all ashy and stuff. Not to mention her personality! Why she always gotta dog poor Obama? Today he fucked around with the Olympic kids and played with a fencing sword. Michelle said he was “pathetic”. Nigga please! B)The crew of her last movie,”Transformers” says Megan Fox was as dumb as a rock! (I assume they didnt mean,’dumb as THE Rock” who is surely no Rhodes Scholar.) Hot as she is…and dumb. Cool.

Sure, with a BMI of 30+ you’re medically obese, and you probably appear ‘fat’ to many people. But it says little about your actual body fat percentage. This is why BMI is an inherently flawed estimator of actual ‘fatness’. This is why we hear the term ‘skinny fat’ for those who appear small but have dangerously high body fat %.

See this young woman: BMI of 32, a proud member of the ‘obesity epidemic’. Obese, yes, but plenty of guys would still find her optimally attractive IMO.

Decimal to binary is nothing. But it’s cute to say I’m 16, and not so cute to say I’m 10110.

@ Tood/DeepThought

Penis size will usually corelate to height (unsurprisingly). The length of a man’s erect penis usually matches the distance from the base of their palm to the end of their outstretched thumb.

Yeah, not really my experience.

@ Cliff Arroyo

Re: Roissy and skinny women

I do think that Roissy is not the norm in this case. As I said earlier, most men (especially men with high-T levels) would prefer a few pounds over to a few pounds under. Most guys I know think that I’m fine where I am, but wouldn’t mind/would prefer a few extra pounds (at 5’7″ and 122 lbs, I’m pretty average).

I have a lot of art books and have seen a lot of art in museums throughout the world. I can’t say I’m an expert, but I love art. Men generally like women with a moderate figure and have throughout history. Our current standards are thinner than most of history has preferred, but not really out of whack either.

I think a fair approximation for the ideal female nude in terms of body weight throughout history would be a classical Roman woman or what one commonly saw in pin ups of the 40s through 60s. In practice, women with such figures never have trouble finding mates either.

There is also a mathematical formula for the beauty of a face as well as beauty of the body and as long as the key proportions remain as close as possible to these ratios, such people are considered to be beautiful.

Although in practice we deviate considerably from these ideals in selecting mates, all of us recognize them and instinctively gravitate towards them. It seems to be hard wired. In this regard Roissy is always correct.

I do think that Roissy is not the norm in this case. As I said earlier, most men (especially men with high-T levels) would prefer a few pounds over to a few pounds under. ”

I totally agree, and my own experiences as an underweight woman (17.5 BMI with muscles, so I look even smaller) certainly support this idea. Men approach me on the street to tell me to gain 30 lbs, .65 WHR be damned.

So in whose interest is it to say that size DOESN’T matter? Guys with large cocks? I find that doubtful.

And even if small penis guys are saying it out of bitterness, that doesn’t mean it’s not true or that they’re the only ones saying it. They, out of bitterness, along with guys who are well endowed, out of pride, can both be saying it precisely because it’s true.

Looks are, say, a 10% factor for men while they are a 95% factor for women.

That is a CH and PUA vast exaggeration.

I don’t think looks are even at 95% for pickup. Maybe 85-90%.

For relationships I’d day looks are 75% or so for men. Really it’s better expressed as a matter of threshold. A man will have a threshold or maybe really two. One below which he just won’t go. And another which makes him pretty happy, realistically, when he isn’t mouthing off macho like to his friends. Between the two thresholds looks matter a LOT. Once the higher one is reached, I think a girl’s personality matters about as much to most guys for LTRs as her looks. That is if say a guy has an 8 higher threshold he’ll turn down a 9 for LTRs if she’s a constant drama queen to deal with, gamable yes but work work work, in favor of a fun and energetic 8.

As for girls, they’ll tell you that looks matter much more to them than 10%. They won’t be entirely wrong about that. Girl’s can often read male dominance, edginess and so on in a guy’s face and the way he holds himself physically to a significant degree, and as well the opposite, can often read dorkiness or wussiness in appearance. So girls will call this masculine aura a guy give off “looks”.

Anyway, I have nothing to gain from the situation, as I’m a) normal weight but much nearer to the ‘underweight’ category, and b) engaged to a guy who thinks 20-30 extra lbs wouldn’t be bad on a sufficiently young girl.

Bonnie – “See this young woman: BMI of 32, a proud member of the ‘obesity epidemic’. Obese, yes, but plenty of guys would still find her optimally attractive IMO.”

Medical statistics are always broad averages over large populations. There is not a way to present the information from those studies without there being tails of the bell curve. This does not mean a crude index like BMI is not useful. If it works 70% of the time then that’s useful for public health purposes.

No one is saying that nicely-proportioned curvy women are undesireable. Where R. and I and others are calling BS is in response to insinuations that men like fatties.

Your pic on your blog, for example (the one with your ass in that golden dress) is an example of a nicely proportioned curvy woman.

hear hear. if she gets into fighting shape with her size advantage, over there, she could be like the Bob Sapp of the Ladies Laotian Heavyweight UFC Division. She’d kick ass. There’s lotsa prize money in that

I’m at normal weight, and it’s just short of physically impossible for me to gain weight (SRSLY). However, I’m not just talking about my boyfriend. My boyfriend is also outside the norm — most guys I know would not take 20 or 30 extra lbs on a girl, no matter how young the girl.

That said, almost every guy I know would take a girl a few pounds over their ideal weight for a girl (let’s not talk BMI’s or societal standards — just, whatever your ideal weight for a girl is), rather than a few pounds under their ideal weight for a girl.

She looks as ok as she does because she’s still got a good hip to waste ratio, with that fairly then stomach. I suspect she’s using some kind of bustier device in the picture to pinch it in though. As well she’s fortunate that her face hasn’t taken on too much of a fat look. A bit but not too much.

Yes, but you’re only one guy. And Roissy is only one guy. If you both agree with each other, that doesn’t make majority.

No one is saying that nicely-proportioned curvy women are undesireable. Where R. and I and others are calling BS is in response to insinuations that men like fatties.

I agree with this. I don’t think you or Roissy are saying that (real) curvy women are undesirable. I do think that Roissy has a preference for skinnier women than do most guys, however.

Your pic on your blog, for example (the one with your ass in that golden dress) is an example of a nicely proportioned curvy woman.

Thanks.

A girl with a large wide behind and thunderthighs is a fattie, attractive only to bottomfeeders.

Again, I’m not trying to say that men like fat girls. Not at all. Just that men tend to prefer a little more weight to a little less. Assuming we’re using their “ideal weight for a girl” (whether that’s 5’8″ and 100 lbs or 5’4″ and 100 lbs) as the jumping off point. Nowhere am I saying that men like fatties. And I would, in fact, have real problems if this were the case, as I am physically incapable of gaining weight (it’s a thyroid thing). But yeah. Just my experience with guys.

The only reason I can see to avoid girls who are a few pounds over your ideal weight is if you’re screening for potential fatness later in life.

lilgirl:Anecdotally speaking, nearly every guy I know (save for one, but we’ll call him an outlier) would sooner date/fuck a girl with +10 pounds than one with -10.

anecdotally speaking, nearly every guy i know would sooner date/fuck the girl with -10.

SRSLY.

I do think that Roissy is not the norm in this case.

unfortunately for your fat acceptance sympathies, my tastes in women are very much the norm for men. and studies have consistently backed up my version of the norm rather than yours.

As I said earlier, most men (especially men with high-T levels) would prefer a few pounds over to a few pounds under.

you are wrong. most men, high or low T, prefer thinner girls to fatter girls, your bf’s outlier preferences to the contrary notwithstanding. some high T men may fuck more fatties than low T men, but they are also fucking more slender chicks, because very high T men are so horny they lose their powers of discrimination. see: any prison population.

Most guys I know think that I’m fine where I am, but wouldn’t mind/would prefer a few extra pounds (at 5’7″ and 122 lbs, I’m pretty average).

no matter what he says, if you were to gain 10 pounds your bf would slowly treat you less well. he would find himself becoming less attracted to you. for every additional pound over the first 10 pounds that you gain, a concomitant reduction in your bf’s desire to fuck you and do nice things for you would follow. eventually you will bloat to the point of no return, and your bf in his abject revulsion will cheat on you, withdraw his affection so completely that he is effectively single, or dump you.
this is the way to bet.
of course, it is possible your bf is a genuine fatty fucker. in which case, you can eat yourself to gluttonous merriment and only have to compete with the other 100 million fatass American women out there.
it should go without saying that if your bf likes em stuffed like a thanksgiving turkey he’s an exception to the rule.

Roissy said “most men would sooner date a woman who was 10 pounds underweight than a woman 10 pounds overweight.”, not under their ideal weight or over their ideal weight.

Their ideal weight is already skewed to ‘underweight’ (as defined by BMI or whatever), so of course if they have to chose 10 more or 10 less they’d chose 10 more. That’s because 10 less is going from thin to gross thin.

The only types of people I know who consistently list “large penis size” as a prerequisite for enjoyable and orgasmic sex are gay men, lower class black women and sexually promiscuous older white women.

It seems that literally everyone else, except men who are EXTREMELY insecure about their penis size, doesn’t particularly care.

Here’s why:

[1] Misconceptions heaped on the minds of the young by pop culture and the proliferation of porn in recent generations give the impression that the ability to please a woman is predicated on large penis size and just wildly driving into her vagina with complete abandon.

[2] As Roissy has noted, women initially rate men by their overall qualifcations. Wise women that I’ve known [in both the biblical and personal senses] have stated that a man’s penis size wasn’t indicative of his sexual prowess. Along racial and cultural lines, girls that I’ve talked to have often complained that “dudes with big dicks overestimate their sex-swagger”. I’d discuss this further, but I now how well conversations about race and culture go along here…

[3] Girth (circumference) matters, not length. Most sensitive nerve endings are outside of the vagina and only 4-in. deep within a woman’s genitals. The ability to apply pleasurable pressure and friction to a woman’s sexual erogenous zones matters significantly more than the ability to play “Cave Explorer” all the way to her cervix. [Note: The average circumference of a man’s penis is 5-in.]

[4] The “C-V Range”. Someone in the Roissysphere has written about this subject before. It may have been Roosh. Anyway, the C-V Range is the length of flesh between a woman’s clitoris and vagina. To put it simply — Current research supports the theory that the greater the C-V Range, the less likely a woman is to cum.

In conclusion, I’d suggest that the best way to personally resolve penis size insecurity is to learn “Game” to find desirable women, and then have sex with them. Through research, experiment and experience, you’ll surely find the means to make sex a mutually pleasurable activity for your woman and yourself — regardless of penis size.

[Apologies for the docutainment-type post. I’ve been watching a lot of 50s-style nuclear war survival documentaries for a project, and I think the explanatory style has sort of ‘attached’ itself to me.]

Lil Girl, at 5’7″ and 122 lbs, is 5 lbs shy of being medically ‘underweight’ (ie under 18.5 BMI). Hardly ‘curvy’ in the sense it’s usually used.

PA said

“I call bullshit. Never saw a man approach a woman on the street and offer an opinion on her weight.”

If you haven’t seen it, it doesn’t happen?

Welcome to my life as an abnormally thin woman. People comment on my body every. single. day. Women are jealous of how I look, or at least that I could never be called fat. Men understand that I am considered ‘ideal’ in some ways by the media, and want to put me in my place or tell me that they don’t agree that skinny is sexy, I’d be hotter if I weight a buck 25. Etc.

Most memorable recent encounter? I walk past a bar and some drunk dude smoking outside says, ‘Hey, I like your legs”. I continue walking with no response. He begins following me down the street, first saying, ‘Hey, I LIKE YOUR LEGS!’ then beginning to chant ‘Hey ana, ana, anorexic! ANOREXIC!’.

Yesterday two guys and a girl drove by me walking back from 711 and screamed ‘EAT SOMETHING!’. Guess they didn’t notice I was eating a Klondike bar.

ruby:The only types of people I know who consistently list “large penis size” as a prerequisite for enjoyable and orgasmic sex are gay men, lower class black women and sexually promiscuous older white women.

penis size is similar in function to sense of humor for attracting women: once you’re over a certain minimum threshold of excitability it doesn’t make much of a difference in how strongly the woman feels about you.
of course, it doesn’t hurt to be blessed with a member eight inches long… from the floor. ;)

Yes, she’s straight up fat. She’s very fat actually, aka obese. I would not want to do her or be seen with her.

Just saying she manages to carry it better than most who are that fat for the reasons I stated.

[editor: true, but that’s cold comfort. she’s still a fat disgusting fuck. and once her youth disappears all that fat is gonna lose the scaffolding which is holding it up right now. the visual “rotting whale carcass” comes to mind.]

While I particularly enjoyed and agree with your, Houellebecq and Bulletproof-Pimp’s advice to shuffle off to a tropical paradise to ‘purchase’ the physical and emotional affection of young and nubile native ladies, I was wondering what your extended views are of “Game” strategies and targets while between the ages of 40 and 70?

bonnie:BTW roissy, I gained 10 lbs in the last year (taking me from 15 to 17 BMI) and BF seems to like it fine (although he has no particular desire for me to gain more, he says I look better now than I did).

two points.
one, at bmi 15 you had room to grow. a 10 pound weight gain won’t have the sexual market value lowering impact on you that it would have on a girl at, say, a more precarious bmi of 23.
two, a woman taking her bf’s word about her weight gain is like believing a used car salesman when he says you don’t have to test drive the car, he’s already done it for you.

“I score high in both your earlier judgment categories. Not so bad in looks either though not spectacular. Tall and dominant looking though, which are actually more important.

Adding[I don’t believe you, and when I said big…and endowed…I didn’t just mean in length moron.]

What women judge men by has only tagential relevance as to who they’ll screw. Girl talk is crap.

Men’s looks matter only way down the pile of things for the large majority of girls. They think otherwise; they’re wrong. They act differently. Women are attracted to men with a dominant edge. Playful dominance especially.

Some women want more muscles and some want more brain muscles. Some want gobs of money and others want social do gooder loving of him. But by and large women want playful dominance in a man; a man that can play her emotions and take her on dramatic roller coaster emotional rides. Make her feel ecstatic and worried about loosing him.

Adding:[women who are crazy love that and we know men like women who are crazy…they say they don’t, but they do. That’s the dark secret men don’t want us to know, they crave crazy bitches.]

Cock size is mostly a poor created fetish that leads some women to think that the really big dicked man is more dominant. Almost all female sexual nerve endings in the vagina leaving aside the clitoris and pussy lips are very close to the entrance. Event the G spot is only a couple of inches in. Cock size is, except perhaps for the very poorly endowed, largely or entirely a psychological matter and one that’s largely porn induced in girls today. I’m saying this as someone a lot thicker and also longer than average.

Feminists as part of their campaign to belittle men under the banner of “judging them just as much” have added this area fairly recently. As though women haven’t always judged men more , they’re now just adding additional explicit dimensions to make their negative judging that much greater.

Your claim to not be a feminist is crap. Maybe you aren’t the most radical sort and distance yourself from some of them, but your thinking is deeply feminist influenced.”

Keep feeding yourself this drivel…you’re starting to sound like BBW….lol..I’m still not sure why it even matters if I’m a feminist or not, boooooring! Doesn’t change the fact that when you’re getting all hot and sweaty with a gal and she grabs your pants she wants to feel something, big ,you can’t change it. No social conditioning can chang it. It’s funny cuz I just had this discussion with my friend. Needless to say she was disappointed with her suitors package.

Women are equally sensitive to the anabolic and masculinizing effects of biological androgens. It is the same receptor and the same bunch of signaling proteins. What you are probably talking about is that certain hormonal effects occur at lower levels than others:

Skin oiliness, voice deepening and hairy legs require lesser amounts of androgens than, say, effects on the brain and blood cell formation. Similarly slight masculinizing facial features takes less androgen than what is required for masculine levels of sexual drive.

BTW – Doug 1 – I don’t think it is all in the genes. A japanese man (traditionally longer lived than most western men) will get the same diseases of civilization that dog us here in the West when he moves to USA, CAN, AUS, NZ and CHANGES his diet to match that what the normal westerner is eating.

I’ve seen bodily transformations like you wouldn’t believe through simple improvement in diet in exercise – good genes, or the “right” genes help – but are not the be all and end all.

So again – there is zero excuse to be a fat bitch…..or a fat bastard for that matter.

elisetsigourney weaver has a similar facial type to michelle obama, but i don’t hear anyone going out of their way to say her face is a 1.

MY God, you’re right. They do look similar.

[editor: no they don’t. weaver is better looking than obama. and i wouldn’t call weaver beautiful either. she’s what is known as a handsome woman. not hot, not pretty, but easy enough on the eyes. a classy look. if i had to give her a rank, i’d put it around 6.5.]

The only types of people I know who consistently list “large penis size” as a prerequisite for enjoyable and orgasmic sex are gay men, lower class black women and sexually promiscuous older white women.

It seems that literally everyone else, except men who are EXTREMELY insecure about their penis size, doesn’t particularly care.

Similarly the only types of people who consistently list alpha thug sportfucker traits as a prerequisite for attraction are also gay men, lower class black women and sexually promiscuous white women. Ask any other type of woman and she’ll list nice guy beta characteristics as what she likes. Does that mean that the idea of girls who are “good girls” on the surface liking “bad boys” is a myth as well because most women won’t openly cop to it? No, anyone who’s been in the dating game long enough knows even good girls are attracted to a certain level of alpha thuggery. It’s just that some women are more into keeping appearances and conforming to social norms than others. The same logic goes to why not all women admit to caring about cock size also.

Just like admitting a gina tingle for alpha thuggery, when women admit that size matters it makes the avg man nervous and insecure, so a smart woman keeps any such preferences to herself unless actually with a well-endowed man. Plus men assume a woman is some kind of slut or whore if she cops to caring about penis size, which is another reason only women unashamed of being called sluts are okay with openly admitting it. Think about it, why would something that physically stimulates a black chick or openly promiscuous white chick’s vagina magically have no effect on a middle class or upper class “good girl’s” vagina? They’re that physically different? No. The good girl just cares more about her reputation.

The good news is that being too big can often be unpleasurable and painful and a turnoff too. Additionally a lot of the bigger penises have trouble getting as hard because they require a lot more blood. As long as you’re average and not incredibly small you’re good. Slightly above average seems to be the best. Too much above average and that becomes a prob for women too.

My point is that BMI doesn’t determine your attractiveness to the average member of the opposite or even how ‘fat’ you appear with any accuracy (with the exception of really, really huge people, who are really rare anyway).

The girl I posed upthread with a BMI of 32, way over the obesity cut-off, proves my point.

“Doug 1 – would this be due to more access to protein rich food? The Masai practically live on cooked meat, and raw dairy product …..and don’t get fat.”

Yes. It’s the immense amounts of sugar/flour that’s making us all fatter, and in particular giving us big guts (even women, who in the old days very rarely carried weight in the middle).

I eat high-fat, high protein myself, and have very firm muscle tone with little effort and a tiny waist.. hoping to keep them with age and after pregnancies by continuing to eat this way.

Population weight can be seen as lying on a bell curve. In response to average diet/lifestyle, genes say where on the bell curve you will be.

Overall, in modernity, the weight bell curve has shifted vastly to the right.

Bonnie: 17 BMI sounds alarming to me (and definitely on 15). But it’d be much easier to judge if it was healthy for you when actually looking at you in person. Do you do intense exercise and have ok levels of energy?

It totally depends on the woman, Cecilia. If I had a BMI of 19 like Lil Girl, I wouldn’t look anything like she does. We have totally different body types, and I am very wiry (muscle is dense)- I look much smaller at the same height and weight than a girl I know personally who is almost exactly the same size as me.

There are significant differences between races. Asians tend to have a higher proportion of body fat to muscle mass than whites, and Africans have a higher proportion of muscle to fat than any other race.

This is why most Asian countries have the cut-off for being ‘overweight’ at 23, instead of 25 like America.

I simply stated that the understanding of why, how and how much it is a factor is largely misunderstood in our culture.

Sexual-psychological stimulation to relative qualities of displayed body parts is genetically imprinted into all of us. Just as men will react in a stronger manner to large breasts and a curvy-booty than to flat fronts and bottoms, women will react stronger to a sizable and aesthetically pleasing erect penis than to a flaccid micro-penis.

What many unfortunate men don’t realize [to their disadvantage] is that women will take penis size in consideration with everything else a man possesses. A man who has ensured a Supernova-level ‘gina tingle’ in his woman is a man who does not have to worry about his woman contemplating the sexual logistics of his penis.

Well, I’m a bit of a super-skinny fetishist, so I’m probably biased. My boyfriend (eastern Ukrainian) is 6’2″/145 pounds and has a 30-inch 8-pack waist *drool* so my perceptions might be skewed. A lot of women of average weight would be stunners if they dropped 10-15 lbs. My best friend at 5’6″ and 120 lbs. was pretty but after losing 10 pounds is a knockout. Of course she is small-boned….

bonnie:There are significant differences between races. Asians tend to have a higher proportion of body fat to muscle mass than whites, and Africans have a higher proportion of muscle to fat than any other race.

This is why most Asian countries have the cut-off for being ‘overweight’ at 23, instead of 25 like America.

this is true. there are broad racial differences in the scaling of bmi. as you noted, asians have more fat and thus hit unacceptable bmi levels sooner than whites, who hit it sooner than blacks. however, bmi 25 is the high end of healthy, not the high end of attractive, and the two concepts, while overlapping, are not the same. an average-framed woman at bmi 25 can be healthy but she’ll likely look a lot better if she lost weight to bmi 22. this is the mistake that the fat lovers crowd and the anorexia-paranoiac crowd make when resorting to guidelines set by government health agencies — they are guidelines for health, not beauty.

so listen up ladies! shoot for bmi 17-23, preferably on the lower end of that range, and you will increase the chance of landing that perfect man while still being healthy.

Doesn’t change the fact that when you’re getting all hot and sweaty with a gal and she grabs your pants she wants to feel something, big ,you can’t change it.
Always seemed to me something ‘loose’* women were concerned with overly. I can see why it would be a big (cough) concern.

There is no conclusive evidence that BMI has very much to do with health. Many studies have been done, I’ve read them all, we don’t have if figured out yet.

Body fat percentage, now that has a lot to do with health. But BMI doesn’t accurately predict body fat percentage.

The most interesting one lately showed that in older people, being in the overweight and obese category reduced your risk or death. Ideal weight men and women and underweight women had the same risk, and underweight men had the most risk.. IIRC

The National Institute of Health recommends a bmi 18.5-24.9 via extrapolating from data on the health consequences of each end of the range. Being underweight has health risks.

[editor: the nih is a health org, not a beauty org. while optimal female health and beauty overlap, it isn’t a 1 to 1 relationship. nih’s numbers are inherently misleading because they don’t take into account frame size and muscle development, which is BMI’s central weakness. being underweight has fewer health consequences than being overweight. anorexia is a rare condition, while obesity is practically the law of the waddling land. a healthy *and* beautiful bmi is between 17 and 23 inclusive, preferably toward the lower end of that range. 24 and 25 bmi is pushing into chunks of chubby love territory.

Some guys like watching porn of “huge” penises, and some girls/gay guys are size queens. Both are true.

The problem for supporters is, neither of these groups are very large, just very vocal, especially after the fags-in-drag on SATC.

Freakishly large penises draw a crowd of rubbernecking gawkers as well: we wouldn’t know who John Holmes or Lexington Steele is if they weren’t the kings of cock. This group, however, is in it for the freak factor, not for desire.

Unless you are abnormally small or she’s a size queen, so long as you get the girl off with it, she’s cool.

[editor: the first three pics look like the same woman. it’s hard to tell their bodies from the poses and clothing worn. the fourth pic girl is too skinny. she should put on 10 pounds. in her case, she is already under ideal weight, so an extra 10 pounds would do her some good, especially if it accummulated in the breastal region.]

“Bonnie: 17 BMI sounds alarming to me (and definitely on 15). But it’d be much easier to judge if it was healthy for you when actually looking at you in person. Do you do intense exercise and have ok levels of energy?”

I look pretty normal. You see images of women with 15-18 BMIs every day – most lingerie models are around my current size (runway models much thinner).

[editor: yes, there are plenty of hot, healthy babes in the 15-18 bmi range. they likely have small boned frames. don’t listen to fat apologists like anony who are spreading lies and death by pushing women to believe it’s healthy to bloat up to bmi 25 and higher, and who propagandize that men’s preferences in women are completely random and particular when just the opposite is true.]

I have always been active, and wiry and strong for my size, but the recent weight gain came after starting to really exercise (of course I had to eat a lot too).. I walk about an hour a day, do lots of gardening in the summer months, run (do a 5k twice a week usually with an 8 minute mile), do yoga, and do chin-ups, push-ups, and weights (trying to strengthen my weak upper body, it’s slow going).

I am pretty cut, when I flex (look feminine when I don’t, thankfully).
My body looks just like Candice Swanepoel’s, a bit thinner (and 4″ shorter).

I still think I look too thin. But further weight gain will be for vanity’s sake, not ‘health’.

All 4 are the same woman at different weights. (Not sure if #2 is overweight with a tight fit, which makes her look curvy. I included it as it’s a good example of what attractive “curvy” looks like, i.e. not fat).

A lot of women of average weight would be stunners if they dropped 10-15 lbs.

Comment of the DAY!

(alas, in Maryland that would be more like 30-200 pounds)

[editor: sadly true. and 200 lbs is no exaggeration. you could probably track america’s decline to american women’s weight gain. there will be a fiscal and social lag effect, of course, which would have to be adjusted for, but once the adjustment is made i bet for every ten pound average weight gain among women, the GDP shrinks by a certain percentage, america’s credit rating drops a percentage, and america’s global influence wanes by some objectively measurable amount.]

What this link tells us is that BMI is nonsense, and most women in America are unbearably fat. Many of the “normal” women in that are unbearably fat. Almost all the skinny broads in the pictures are nasty “skinny fat” type women, who are almost as bad as fat-fat ones.
Waist to hip ratio is where it is at. It’s the simplest thing to measure, and it has the most forecasting power to how hot they are. Sure there are “well proportioned” tubs of pork butter who score 0.65-0.7 on this scale, but they are incredibly rare.

FWIIW, I agree with Bonnie to a certain extent: I really dig women who are in the 0.65 range of the waist to hip scale. I like junk in the trunk; as long as it’s got some muscle backing it up. The amount I dig them over 0.7’s varies with the amount I’m feeling my sap. Since I usually have the testosterone of a bull moose, that’s how I like them: like a Frank Frazetta painting.
I wrote a post on this some years ago; unfortunately many of the visual aids are gone, but here it is anyhow:

Finally: Mrs. Obama … of course liberal dimwits overrate her attractiveness and glamor. And of course conservative people underrate her attractiveness. I don’t find her too hot myself, but for chrissakes, she is in her late 40s. She’s doing very well for a woman of her age.

“the first three pics look like the same woman. it’s hard to tell their bodies from the poses and clothing worn.”

I think it’s pretty obviously all the same woman with some photoshop thrown in (and some taking advantage of how different poses can change how much body fat women seem to have).

FWIW I find the ‘overweight’ picture the most attractive (though the setting might have something to do with that and obvious open mouth signalling is kind of a turn off for me, the closed mouth look is more alluring but the ‘underweight’ pic is a real turn off)

nb. I’m not a fatty chaser and generally prefer leaner (though not starved) physiques but find that personality can trump looks more than the reverse and skeletal frame matters a lot in how much weight a woman can carry and be appealing.

Lurker, still running and running but getting nowhere good says, “—now see female arrogance at hand. We all have to study everythign about ehr life to udnerstand her nonsensical quotes.

tjf much?”

No, it’s just that you should know something of my life before lying about it. You don’t even know which lies to tell, so you’re stabbing in the dark and catching nothing but your own hot air.

“”What have you done for your world aside of provide free fertilizer?”
—skewered a delusional warpig like you.”

What am I delusional about?

…and please do try to tell the truth this time.

You don’t really know what I’m actually delusional about, if anything. You just know that I disagree with your tinker toy level worldview.

You know, this site is pretty good, but it shouldn’t be the only thing you read.

…not that you actually read it. I think you just skim for words that trigger your frustration and just kneejerk.

You even freak out on people who are agreeing with you. LOL!

“If my dad’s a fag, that must make you his bitch. You can’t even handle me.”
–actually, your father and your ex husbands are my bitches, ho.”

My dad and both my ex husbands served their country in the military. My dad is now a teacher, my first ex an undersea robotics engineer, and my second, a retired police officer.

What have you done for your world aside of provided free fertilizer?

“And no one wants to handle you….that’s why you sleep alone.”

Better alone with my dignity and satisfaction of days well spent being more value to my species than a mere consumer and producer of waste, than alone and beating my chest trying to one up a female thousands of miles away, whose shoes I’m not worthy to shine because of being too much of an asshole to even work in a service profession.

Aoefe: “I think this chick is the hottest of the bunch and they say she’s obese??”

You, madame, have a grotesque set of aesthetics. I will attribute it to my theory that you’re dykier than a ladies lacrosse team. That woman is in fact disgustingly obese. She looks like Meatloaf’s character in Fight Club. There is no conceivable way I could have sex with something that looked like that.

I’m finding that even more inconceivable than you having sex with SGT MAJOR HAD A SEX CHANGE IN INDIA WHERE HE HAD TOO MUCH SUN. Desperate times! (Remember Arpagus’ Charlotte? *hopes Arpie isn’t reading at the moment*)

Why does anyone even pretend that there is something debatable about this most inane most overanalyzed topic on earth?

Men might have an automated microscopic lens for spotting imperfections in the female physique when they are sober, and women still know all their flaws better than a man whose fucked them 1000 times.

I don’t know what neolithic man thought. I don’t know what I would think if I were raised in some famine struck hunter-gatherer tribe. But I know what a hot body looks like today, and so does everyone else.

SAW says, “You know, many Western men approach me and my girls around town with the, “hey, are you Indian? Could you teach me the Kama Sutra” line.

Yes, we, the forever exotified and sought-after smart South Asian beauties with the long black hair, heart-shaped lips, almond/lotus petal shaped eyes and MAD cooking skills always spur them. And not because of their looks or even because of their approach.”

I get it. It’s not even a “devil you know is better than the devil you don’t” situation. It’s a “devil you know being better than a fag you don’t want to know” situation.

I made the mistake, as a Black woman, of banking some part of my future on westernized men. Don’t make the same mistake I did. You’ll be 40 and consoling yourself with old divorced mafia guys or cats.

FemX says, “I don’t know what neolithic man thought. I don’t know what I would think if I were raised in some famine struck hunter-gatherer tribe. But I know what a hot body looks like today, and so does everyone else.”

Very true, but social phenomena like corsetry, foot binding, lip plating, and other extreme body modifications prove that how hotness will be reacted to beyond thought depends very much on social status.

I would personally love to see the end of that. I would like to see men naturally enjoying women’s beauty instead of finding social reasons to negate it.

That would make the west a more beautiful place.

For all the praise slim and hot women get here, I saw almost none of that when I was around American guys in my youth. Guys were either afraid of me, trying to put me down, or strangely, calling me fat.

I caught less hell in real life, when I actually became fat, than I did when I wasn’t. I think western guys like ugliness…it’s a kind of love-to-hate thing. If you’re beautiful but not White, it’s somehow so wrong that it needs to be destroyed.

@ghost of nicole, actually I wasn’t that positive about fat women (I was more about examining the boundaries of what’s ‘fat’ and more controversially the idea that since it was more or less impossible for humans to get fat for the great majority of time that we’ve been on earth we don’t have hard-wired ideas about it (at least not to the same extent that we have hard-wired ideas about hip/waist ratio or social dominance). I also point out that the body ideal in cultures that practice gavage is nothing like marshmallow fatness in the current US, but more about size 16-18 goodness in eco-systems where that just ain’t natural.

Hell, I didn’t even mention one case I knew of where a big-boned Dutch woman lost about 30 pounds (to the strong encouragement of women in her social circle) but made herself far less appealing to a whole bunch of guys in the process.

Your recommendations of good inner game is correct but besides the point. Your recommendation of moving to eastern europe is ridiculous. Your recommendation to “just find the woman you like” is let-them-eat-cakes.

The point of shaming obesity is to influence our women to start looking better. As free men and citizens, we don’t just withdraw, we take charge of the situation.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Obsidian @PA Do something constructive, if you really, truly give a damn. Instead of merely sounding off on a blog.

With all due respect, of course.

I strongly disagree that discussing things wrong with society on this board can have no social effect and that the only then men can or should do is develop their game and inner game.

I do agree that learning game and inner game in important, and that betas who simply whine about how hopeless things have become and that they’re getting worse are acting pretty uselessly. Plus they annoying. And the give a bad odor to the place. I have this problem with Whiskey often frankly, but others as well.

However I think Roissy and some of his commenters do have influences. There is afterall a Roissy sphere that’s sprung up. His combining of game and gender realism/anti-feminism is getting noticed in wider and wider circles. I think the loads of talk we’ve done here about how unfair marriage that is divorce law has become to men will make a lot of the men who read here quite a bit whether or not they ever comment quite a lot more hesitant about getting married and a lot more likely to ask for or in fact insistent on a prenup. And a pretty tough one, quite a lot like living together, perhaps with some exceptions negotiated out.

I think men who read here are more likely to call out feminist garbage in a lot of areas, and be resistant to it. For example in how they raise their children and countering some of the propaganda they are fed at school.

I think Roissy’s tirads about sluts for LTRs, echoed and elaborated on by many of this regular commenters ARE likely to make guys check that out more than they might have before reading here a lot. As well I think the various attacks on the female obesity epidemic in America are likely to stiffen a lot of guy’s backbones in what they say publically on the subject and how resistant they are to the insistent feminist and fat girls meme that it’s all “arbitrary social conditioning” and other similar garbage.

One blog isn’t going to magically change the culture overnight, no. Or over months either. But I think it’s wrong to say that the stiffening of male resolve in a lot of areas that goes on here can have not effect.

Regarding Rammstein video: For some reason I was reminded of a time I was in Budapest not too long ago, just off one of the big tourist streets (vaci for those that know the place) and near a stripjoint/brothel a group of german/dutch/scandinavian (not sure which) guys were drunk and rowdy. As they were getting ever closer to the stip place, obviously their destination, one of them yelled out in English (apropos of nothing as far as I could tell) “Yeah! Puussssyyyy”.

“Poor things” I thought “I hope the hookers take them for every euro/forint/whatever they can get. It was like watching a flock of geese not realizing there’s a flock of hunters waiting for them by the shore of the lake.

Cliff says, “I also point out that the body ideal in cultures that practice gavage is nothing like marshmallow fatness in the current US, but more about size 16-18 goodness in eco-systems where that just ain’t natural.”

Well, as I’m beginning to understand it, saying that anyone above a U.S. size 6 isn’t utterly grotesque to every man on earth, is bordering sin here. It’s not that you disagree with the party line, it’s how you go about disagreeing with it, that sets off some people’s triggers.

One has to remember that this is a blog, and despite its somewhat public appeal, it’s kinda personal. I’m not here to convince Roissy that he or anybody else should like women they consider fat.

I think it’s more important that women be aware of what some men consider fat, and not take that personally. Natural selection is a wonderful thing. If a guy thinks I’m disgusting, it would be undignified for me to push myself on him, or to behave as if I feel entitled to his sexual or any other kind of attention.

What guys are saying is simply that they don’t want to screw fatties, and that fatties should stop trying to screw them. I’m down with that.

Everybody in the U.S. above the designated ideal should keep her legs closed and hold out for a foreign guy who want a woman who can keep her legs closed more than one who’s skinny.

The “BBW” designation is likely the result of how different the more undesirable men and women are treated in society. Overweight women are often placated (patronized, practically) with “oh you look beautiful!” comments.

But when was the last time a short and ugly guy was told “wow you look hot?”

This especially happens on dating sites (which naturally tend to have more of the shut-in, nerdy type guys than average. Who are even more desperate to hit on anything with a pulse.)

“Problem is that it counts for as much as that pimply faced loudmouth idiot who picked on me in high school and still lives with his mommy’s opinion did.”
—no, I am not one of your mutlitude of ex-husbands from your failed marriages.

“You should grow up.”
—sweetie, your belly’s grown out enough for both of us. and a small village in kenya.

6′2″/145 pounds and has a 30-inch 8-pack waist *drool* so my perceptions might be skewed

Oh, good lord.

—

That said, another thing we can’t really rely on here is pictures. The whole “camera adds ten lbs” thing is very true (of course, if you’re looking for a girl who will look fantastic with you in pictures, then you should look for a girl who’s roughly 10lbs under *ideal* weight — true). Hey, I’m not gonna hate — some people are looking for that.

And a non-trivial percentage of the women in brothels are essentially slaves from a variety of countries, who didn’t realize they were being sold into brothels until it was too late.

You’re parroting one of the current American feminist propaganda and political action campaigns. It’s mostly garbage.

There are advantages to girls wanting to leave the life to claim this when encouraged to do so by feminist NGO’s. Helps them avoid being deported and get asylum for example. Also sometimes they’re helped in getting good straight jobs in the rich country they’re hooking in.

“You’re parroting one of the current American feminist propaganda and political action campaigns. It’s mostly garbage.”

Not mostly. Yes, there are some women who cry ‘kidnap’ when they find it convenient to leave the life behind. There are more who never wanted to enter that particular profession. The basic law of supply and demand is this: there’s more demand for young hookers than there is supply.

How can that gap be filled? Better hours? More pay? Dupe young, poor women from countries without much in the way of functioning legal systems and then force them into hooking until they’re no longer capable of turning a profit?

Cliff, I honestly don’t know exactly what I could possibly say or do other than avoid public forums to not run afoul of Danas and Lurkers. It’s been the bane of my offline and online existence.

I learned early on that there is no placating them. If one is nice to them, they just stomp on you harder. So I really don’t know what to do except ignore them or fight them. Neither does anything to cure them of stupidity or whatever blind spot makes them need me to be their enemy regardless of what I do or say, but fighting them occasionally makes me feel better.

At least I’m letting the shit they throw at me out, instead of holding it in.

I think since I started to lose weight, a lot of the old issues are surfacing, and I’m not as willing to put up with people’s crap. It’s not just the weight loss. Maybe my meager female drop of testosterone is increasing because of the weights and such, so I’m more sensitive and fierce about things too.

When one accepts nature, like I do or try to, and one is at some kind of a disadvantage, one takes certain things in stride as just a part of how people attempt to sort themselves. When one gains or regains an advantage, one has less tolerance for people who can’t accept the natural order and try to muddy the waters.

I’m 39 years old, and way out of any consideration of younger men. So their little concerns about the weight of girls their age are not my problem. I’m not in their range, and don’t want to be. When I was in their range, I got no peace from their type of guys because then whatever beauty I had was socially inconvenient, and the wusses had to make me feel low so they could maintain their illusion of superiority.

Those who think they are superior to me, let them think…but I am damn sure not going to agree. They’ll be crying warpig and nigger all their lives if they think that’s going to bring me down.

I don’t need to be put in my place. Everybody is already in their place. I don’t need to put others down…just to stand my ground.

If this makes my personality disgusting to them, then well it should be. It’s damn sure not meant to be attractive to insecure weaklings.

“if you’re getting laid like you, PA, CH and a few others here, it ain’t no thang. But if you’re not, well, you need to rethink your priorities. Simple as that.”

I sometimes drop in to one of the dating/social networking sites (one that is especially full of, as you guys would call them, lesser betas.) The main problem is that they often spit out the typical defensive “I will not change who I am for anyone!” crap….and will never learn about said priorities until it’s way too late (if ever.) Some sound like they will be George Sodini candidates in 5-15 years for this exact reason.

Hell, I could send CH a list of them just from a quick browsing through its forums. He could be the next “Pick Up Artist” host and use these lemons in the show (some are even more omega than the guys on prior seasons.)

The problem with this website and other similar PUA ‘game’ blogs is it is all about what women want, pandering to women and their petty whimsical needs, attracting and being desirable for women, and so on. It’s all about women, women, women…this incessant focus on what women want actually places men in the secondary or subordinate role. It’s all so desperate and pathetic to see so many intelligent modern White men groveling and lowering yourselves in this way like a bunch of unworthy insects or something.

The fact is that women are very inferior to men both morally and mentally, and also physically in terms of strength and endurance…thus we men should be telling and demanding from women what WE men want, not the other way around. All women have to offer us is a wet hole, while the entire existence and continuity of our civilization, culture, economy, and so on depends on the actions of men.

Y’all need to stop groveling and pandering to the whims of the superficial and petty womenfolk and grow the fuck up. Stop being boys and start becoming men.

Masculinst, though I agree with your statement that men should grow up and be men, I think you’re mistaken about a few things.

This blog isn’t about pandering to women. It’s about bedding and maybe securing hot women. Women in general don’t matter to these men. I’m sure most of them could score an average or below average woman if they wanted.

…but they don’t.

So, to get the top women, they have to learn how their minds work, and how to get into and maybe stay in their pants. Women aren’t going to tell them the truth about how this works usually, because most women are not hot. It is in most women’s interest to convince men that they should learn to be happy with less.

This is not to say that character is less important, but it is still secondary since people aren’t usually getting married and off the general market at 16 anymore.

So men aren’t able to be men in the same way that they could in the past without running afoul of the law. Women want to stay single until they are in their mid 20’s nowadays, and until then, well, slut around.

So this system works best for the hottest women and the highest status men, but other men are left out unless they adapt. I don’t find anything particularly unmanly about adapting.

On the flipside, I think the best way for a non hot woman to adapt to this situation is to not be on the general sexual market…to hold out for when the guys have sown their wild oats or gotten legitimately tired of chasing the top tier women, and are ready to get married. Some guys may value a chaste plain woman, but nobody values an ugly slut.

Fifth, I think the leftism and lack of personal responsibility are the cause of more obesity, not the result of it.

The cure is, of course, for people to butch up.

The problem is that most people don’t have the will to do it without society holding their hand. Gain power and influence so you can move society in the direction you want it to go.

If you don’t have the requisite evil streak to go national, go local…do what you can even in your regular social sphere.

I recruit at my table. Whenever I bake a birthday cake with real butter instead of junk fat, people edge a little closer to seeing the light. Other kids pull out their sandwiches, and mine breaks out a chicken leg, a half cup of rice, and a gorgeous salad.

There’s all kinds of stuff you can do. The rewards in people’s stomachs and their pockets will get you where vague protests of the results of a problem they don’t know the real cause of, wouldn’t. Become a food snob.

If you have a female friend who’s just a friend because she’s fat, give her some tools. Baby steps…get her to get rid of the white sugar and junk fat…then move up to disallowing white bread and so on. Don’t talk to her about calories at first. That’ll come later.

…and be there for her when it hits her that she isn’t genetically fat or doomed to be fat because of a health problem that wouldn’t, with a natural diet, facilitate fatness. She’ll be confused and pissed off.

Defend her when other people diss her…cause you know some idiot is going to insult her for having a steak or something.

You might recruit a friend and release a diamond in the rough. It’ll also give you some practice in working that male authority thang.

I think you’re offering the practical solution, but the practical and social can and do reinforce each other. More guys with game is good, but social behavior matters as well.

Even if guys don’t have game, blatantly ignoring women, e.g. who do not measure up can only do good. The problem is actually slightly more complicated, from my field observations — a lot of guys in game DO NOT have high enough standards and will run game on everything with a pulse. Perhaps this has to do with the hi-t loss of discrimination Roissy mentioned earlier.

So there’s a need for Comprehensive Reform in this area on several fronts: shunning overweight women, educating unsuccessful betas and mocking hi-t for “hogging it”.

Men are not putting money where their mouths are. They ARE flirting with the overweight and even the downright obese. They aren’t JUST flirting either. I think only the upper echelons of manhood (read alpha) can afford to be picky. Have you guys been to a Walmart lately? Very fat chicks are with men of all shapes and sizes. By the way walking in the door of a Wallymart gets you hit with the ugly stick. Something to do with their layout and lighting I’m thinking. Oh I get ugly there too, it happens to everyone. Stay away, stay away. I apologize in advance to any readers who might be shareholders.

Oh so what was I saying? Ya…so dudes if you want women to be slender then start being honest. Start with your woman if you have one. Get up tomorrow and tell her you want her on a diet (you choose it), tell her she’s got 30 days to get her shit together weight wise or you’re clearing out. Tell her you’re tired of waking up next to a woman who you have to close your eyes to screw. Tell her ALL men feel this way so if she thinks she’d be better off with another guy -wish her luck.

In my loooong ltr my guy would encourage me to eat and tell me he liked a chick with junk in her trunk. It made me complacent. It was only later I realized he was taking me off the market purposely. So ladies beware if your guy is saying you look good with more weight on – he may be just keeping you unavailable as an option to other men. His own version of protecting his interest. He’ll still dig hotter, skinnier chicks too, don’t fool yourself.
You guys are sooo nosy. ;)

JB, you might get somewhere with psychological betas, but I don’t know how much success you’ll have at cock blocking the merely status betas.

The male sex drive is so powerful that my being legit obese and very not the preferred ethnicity, didn’t stop a couple of them. I wish I knew then what I know now. I’d have said no. Now that I know what I know, no man who hasn’t traded rings with me has a snowball’s chance in hell of even seeng my knees.

So maybe one way you can cock block “bottomfeeders” is by convincing them that the women at the bottom know what they’re thinking. If they believe that women who aren’t within the acceptable looks range ar not going to fall for their lies, maybe they’ll stop telling them.

Tell. me. about. it. When I was with my ex, he absolutely loved feeding me and he didn’t have a fet fetish. He wanted me to stay off the market. Encourage me to snack late at night, and buy me expensive chocolates. When he went on a trip and came back, my gifts were primarily constituted of very, rich foods.

I likewise tried to fatten him up. Loading my cooking with butter (in his portions only), baked him cakes, packed him lunches that were like 5 course meals, then fattened him some more when he came home. I also baked sweets for him to send to his father, knowing that they would annihilate them together.

Oh, and, over the course of our relationship we both gained weight. Him a lot more than me, so I think I won. As soon as moved to NY, but we were still together, we both melted away all the fat we had gained just by not being able to force feed each other. When I went to visit him he tried (to no avail) to get me fat again. Fun times.

JB, that’s still insulting fat chicks, and not calling men who use them as masturbatory tools, on their psychological zooerasty. If the point is to get guys to stop shagging fat girls, you have to make it a truly shameful thing to do…a real perversion.

The more abuse you heap on fat women, the more the chubby chaser will view them as the underdog they are saving from a life of celibacy.

These women aren’t lacking sex, and won’t lack sex ever, because there will always be some guy willing to do almost any woman. Not all guys are very socially invested, and some legitimately do prefer women on the heavier side for legit reasons (like fucking like mad wolves for hours on end).

You can’t cut it off completely. What you want to do is thin out the crowd. Part of the reason for this is to return the natural order where people actually cared about being physically compatible with their potential partners.

So what you have to do to reach the socially invested is speak in a language they will interpret as authoritative, not alienating. Authority says, “You are sick for taking advantage of that woman.” Authority shames at a gutt level that is hard to deny.

The guy is indeed taking advantage of the woman, if he’s shagging her even though he’s disgusted by her. That’s the truth. Tell it, and tell it with authority.

I understand your argument but I’m not sure the average man possesses the high level of moral reasoning to even process something like that. Typical comeback would be something like “fat chicks need love too!”

et up tomorrow and tell her you want her on a diet (you choose it), tell her she’s got 30 days to get her shit together weight wise or you’re clearing out.

That’s reeks of meanness. Plus, that leaves her open to demand that I go to the gym and build muscle. [shudder]

In my loooong ltr my guy would encourage me to eat and tell me he liked a chick with junk in her trunk.

My attempts to fatten up Athena were only to ensure an increase in the quality of hugs. Plus, in the off chance that I’d ever see her naked, I wouldn’t see exposed ribs, and her ass and tits would have some body fat worth grabbing…

Yup I have no interest in insulting people who haven’t done something to deserve it. It just gets old seeing both bigger girls and whiny beta guys insist that the world should change for them
(while they attack anyone who wants to inject any truth or tough love into their outlook.)

And as a guy who is 5’6 (and definitely a former beta back in my late teens/early 20s), I know first hand how damaging and unhealthy it is to ignore the reality of things.

So ladies beware if your guy is saying you look good with more weight on – he may be just keeping you unavailable as an option to other men.

@ aoefe, Sofia

Alright, guys, that’s just weird. It should be noted that, despite what I’ve been saying (about guys preferring a few lbs over their ideal weight to a few lbs under), not a single guy — especially not my boyfriend — has ever encouraged me to gain weight (or lose it). Umm…SRSLY. Heh. Yeah.

JB says, “I understand your argument but I’m not sure the average man possesses the high level of moral reasoning to even process something like that. Typical comeback would be something like “fat chicks need love too!””

It’s easy. Treat it like a disability. It’s like taking advantage of a woman in a wheelchair…captive audience, purposefully choosing someone they feel is inferior due to sick desire to dominate someone, and all that jazz.

Feminists spout that garbage all the time. Throw it back in their faces. This is social engineering. You can’t be scared to get your hands dirty with something that is actually effective.

Your answer would be, “Love??? You don’t love that girl…You’re just using her!” Then tell him he’s a sick puppy.

Make sure to add something like, “I have an aunt who’s fat, and I’d hate to think some psycho out there was using her…”

You don’t have something against fat women (for this exercise anyway). You just don’t like to see good women getting hurt.

“And as a guy who is 5′6 (and definitely a former beta back in my late teens/early 20s), I know first hand how damaging and unhealthy it is to ignore the reality of things.”

Indeed. It gets people into mismatches that end up getting men and women hurt.

Many guys who genuinely behave as you’ve described will not admit to themselves or others that it’s not “love” but a pure domination dynamic. And, as a defense, could easily point out that by that token, a lot of guys “use women”, who while maybe not fat or in a wheelchair, are psychologically debilitated.

BTW, it isn’t only guys who do this — I have a sufficient caseload in my memory banks of some pretty atrocious behavior by 8-and-above women who picked your equivalent of wheelchair cases to dominate. You’re dealing with a) very strong compulsions and b) widespread enough occurence for the selective condemnation not to stick.

JB, give it a try. It has worked for me as a woman, but it has also worked for male friends of mine cockblocking guys who understand we’re just friends.

In the friends’ case, it’s reserved for guys who try to penetrate the protective barrier by playing nice, but they’re coming on in a way that’s actually disrespectful and smarmy.

One went as far as telling a guy, “This woman is like a mother to me. What the hell is wrong with you?”

If the protective guy thing will work at club parking lot level, I’m pretty sure that it would work at casual conversation level. It’s kind of…stealth alpha. You behave like a knight in shining armor, protecting the girl from the guy, but what you’re really doing is protecting the guy from himself.

“Men sure have done a whole hell of a lot to inflate my ego if I am a 5. I literally cannot imagine the kind of automatic servitude a bona fide 9 is getting if I am a 5.”

Oh, yes. Men tell women they want to bang that they are gorgeous. The shortest path to a woman’s pants is to inflate her ego.

Then, women hear the same thing from a lot of men and believe it. They wrongly estimate their attractiveness status and wait the Bigger Better Deal. They reject every men who would be in your league and pine for men out of their league (they think that because Mr. Alpha has get laid with them, they can get an alpha for a LTR, disregarding a fact that men drop their standards to get laid)

Then, they are astonished that they are over 30 and single. Their answer? I am too fabulous and men are intimidated by me.

The modern woman have preferred her ego to the possibility of love. It’s her choice.

Most misogynists I have known have a couple things in common – high levels of anger, and overly analytical personalities. Their anger against women, and their desire to understand other people enough to manipulate them to do what they want, makes the idea of ‘game’ naturally very attractive.

By the way all, the average height for white American men is 5’8″/5’9″. Look it up. 6 footers are indeed tall, and a guy who’s 5’7″ could hardly be accurately described as ‘short’.

Of course, probably 90% of the men I know think (or pretend they think) they are 2-4″ taller than they actually are. When my barely 5’5″ self is looking you straight in the eye I am not buying that you are 5’10”, dumb ass.

Alright, guys, that’s just weird. It should be noted that, despite what I’ve been saying (about guys preferring a few lbs over their ideal weight to a few lbs under), not a single guy — especially not my boyfriend — has ever encouraged me to gain weight (or lose it). Umm…SRSLY. Heh. Yeah.

2) You attack my bmi data by attacking me. My bmi is just fine, thanks. Is it possible that your unhealthy crusade is rooted in your own struggles with weight?

3)Someone upstream speculated that you R. subconsciously may prefer underweight infertile women who may not get pregnant? Interesting thought.

4) If you truely prefer underweight women, may I suggest the Baribieg tribe in East Africa. Skeletal they are. Take a sack of lentils along.

4)Agree that historic art doesn’t clarify whether the intent was to portray erotic, beauty, cute , or healthy. Well, I’ll only speak for myself , but I don’t *want* anyone (other than my husband) to regard me as sexy. I’d prefer to be regarded as *beauty* over sexy.

G: game doesn´t attract this kind of men. These men are the ones who saw the matrix.

O: If that’s true Gig, then why don’t I hate Women? Because I most definitely saw the “matrix” after reading MM and The Game. How do you explain that?

With all due respect Gig, I disagree with your view. There IS something to be said for the PUA/Game community’s attraction for guys who have at the least a problematic view of Women, if not being out and out misogynist-and let me be clear here. In no way am I a supplicant or suckup to ANY Woman-indeed, I have gone on record, several times, in this regard. I’ve written about two Women in particular, Jana Mackey and Jasmine Fiore, and how they based their mating choices on Gina Tingles alone, and paid the Ultimate Price for it-and they have no one but themselves to blame for it.

That said, I disagree with th notion of some, that Game is either inherently misogynistic, or, that it in some way leads a Man into that sort of thinking-like the violent movie/Hip Hop debate, a person already has to be distrubed in some way prior to indulging in these things in order to go off the deepend. The truth is, that there are a goodly number of guys out there who need to get their heads right BEFORE they enter the Game community, or what they will learn here will just make them markedly worse, not better-and what’s really scary is now they have the means to really hurt others, in this case, Women and indirectly, the rest of us who don’t hate Women (“Masculinist” is an excellent case in point-by his own admission he has no love for Game, but he doesn’t hesitate to come into a Game-focused forum to spew his deeply problematic views).

And while I’m on this point, if I may, I find most of your posts to be deeply problematic, Gig. They are filled with anger and rage, smoothed over with the veneer of an upperclass guy but the vitriol is still there. Your blatant racism aside, there is a distinct anti-Woman strain to your writing that turns guys like me-hardly a friend to Feminists-off. To be frank, its a true wonder you are able to attract any Women to you at all, especially those of a higher quality. But, I suppose, stranger things have happened.

I bleed like a champ every 28 days, and have normal bone density for a woman my age (been tested just to make sure). This was also true when I had a BMI of 14 as a young teenager.

‘Underweight’ does not mean ‘what I think looks awkward/ugly-skinny’. It is when you do this math problem: square your height in inches, divide your weight in pounds by the first number, and x703 – and the answer is less than 18.5.

you see a widespread misogyny among the PUA crowd. I answer that it is because this is exactly the crowd who saw women´s inner nature. You reply I must be angry because you don´t hate women which is only more amazing since you yourself excluded yourself from the PUA crowd many times before

or: you say group A behaves in fashion B and you have excluded yourself from group A before. Individual C, who claims to be part of group A, says group A behaves in fashion B because of D. You reply that since you, who is not part of A, does not follow D, therefore individual C is not part of A

this i why it is hard arguing with you sometimes. With the logic above you kind of invite the racist repply.

Because of the nature of this comment, I’ll be cross-posting it to Ferdinand Bardamu’s In Mala Fide blog shortly.

Recently, at the aforementioned blog, there has taken place a somewhat heated debate, between the SocialCons, and Gamers. The pretext of course, was that the former was trying to “save” Western Civ, while the latter was adding fuel to the fires of its destruction. Both sides were, as one might imagine, impassioned for their side and cause.

But as I took a step back from that particular debate, and just looked at the “haters” of Game in general-in my experience far more Male than Female-one common theme emerges:

They all tend to be deeply adverse to the idea of Change.

Whether they be a dedicated SocialCon like Larry Auster, or a self-professed “sub-human male” like David Alexander, the biggest detractors detest Game, I think, because at its base is the core tenet of changing oneself as a prerequisite to success with Women. And that’s something that I’ve found, is deeply problematic to A LOT of Men.

It’s even here in the current and recurring “Fatty Girl” theme-threads – the focus is on changing someone else, instead of CHANGING ONESELF.

Why are so many Men afraid of Change?

I think there are several reasons for it.

One, because I think a lot of Men think that to change something about themselves, means in essence, that they are not good enough as they are. Well, guess what-they’d be right. As they currently stand, they are not good enough for Today’s Women, most of whom are saavy, edcuated and earn very good livings. In short, they don’t, nor shouldn’t, have to put up with what their moms and grandmoms had to put up with back in the day to land and keep a Man. It’s not good enough to simply be a Nice Guy with a Good Job. So what.

Today’s Guy has to offer more than a steady paycheck. Game helps a Man deliver the goods. Simple as that. And those who adapt to the new environment will do well. Those who don’t, won’t or can’t, will go the way of the Horse & Buggy.

The second reason why I think a lot of guys are so resistant to the core message of Game is due to Fear. Of course, admitting fear on any level is a Cardinal Sin amongst the Brotherhood, but every Man knows Fear at some point in his life, and truth be told, quite a bit often than he’d like to publicly admit. In this case, it’s a Fear of the Unknown, a major stumbling block for a lot of guys. Game asks its students to take quite a few leaps of faith, on what appear to be flimsy, silly or counterintuitive grounds-which, for quite a few Men, is a bridge too far. And that’s too bad. Because by not taking any chances, they choose not to truly live.

He has said that Game can and will, change a Man. I’m a witness.

And so is one blogger formerly known as Beta Prime, of Beta Revolution; as of Sep 12, 2009 though, he has simply decided to call himself “Prime”, in honor of his discovery of Style’s book The Game. Seems he’s finally seen the Matrix. Welcome to the Real World.

My friend, The Fifth Horseman, has said a number of quite provocative things wrt Game; one that a Man with what he considers “Moderate Game Competence” is approximately worth about $2 MIL in quality of life, that such a Man has a skillset that cannot be taxed, seized or goes out of style; he can use it until the day he dies. The second thing TFH posits is that some 80% of all Men anywhere will never “get” Game, that the relative few who do, do so because they are what he terms OTBs-Outside The Box thinkers. People who can see the Matrix, if you will.

I think most Men won’t get Game because they refuse to change. And most Men refuse to change because they’re afraid of the unkown.

I’ve often said that for me, learning Game has given me a deeper appreciation and respect for Women, not the other way around, as some of my brothers have lamented. Because I can see a bit from their point of view various things.

Many Men recoil at the idea of “being someone else”, while never stopping to think the lengths so many Women go to, to become “someone else”. This can and does range from wearing uncomfortable shoes and sitting in a hairdresser’s chair for five hours or more, all the way to laying on a cosmetic surgeon’s table and literally risking her life to look good. The vast majority of Men out there, including those reading this now, including guys like Style and Mystery themselves, will NEVER undergo that many changes in order to have a chance at competing for the opposite sex’s attention. That’s something to keep in mind the next time some guy balks at making some relatively minor adjustments in his overall life situation in order not to windup with Chronic Blue Balls.

At some point, all the smokescreens, all the bullshit, really needs to stop. Guys have to understand that this aint Leave It To Beaver no more, if it ever was, nor are we going back. And instead of pissing and moaning about what we’ve lost, instead focus on what we’ve gained. I, for one, am GLAD that I no longer have to work at a job I HATE, just so I can have a decent shot at getting a Woman. Most of our dads and grandads didn’t have a choice in the matter, and most of them died, in many cases, premature deaths as a result. There have been studies done that show that Men tend to have the most heart attacks on the way to work Monday morning. Don’t know how true that is, but I know for a fact I’ve seen it happen, several times. That doesn’t have to happen to me.

And I rejoice in the fact that any Woman I’m with is with me because of ME, not because of what I do or make. In fact, I can and have been broke, and it didn’t make a difference in the ladies dept. Not. At. All. TFH was right. Game is worth more than a million dollars.

Here’s the thing with game. I believe when it works it works exceptionally well. People who seem to have a knack for it seem to learn a lot and gain proficiency in a remarkably short time. It seems to have a steep learning curve. But ppl who have no knack for it never seem to be able to improve much beyond being able to hold longer conversations and get more numbers, most of which end up flaking in the long term.

So yeah it has some amazing success stories but what percentage of those who undertake learning it actually become successful at it? 20%? 80% Not talking about people who start in a half-assed way and then quit early, I’m talking people who seriously undertake it with dedication and giving it their all: what is the x-factor that makes some of these people into poon superstars and others into lost causes with marginal improvement?

Gig,
I beg your pardon? I don’t recall saying that I repudiate the PUA community or some such thing. But even if I did, it still doesn’t answer my core question-why does it seem to be a magnet for guys who harbor deep dislikes for Women? Now, you have answered my question, and I respectfully disagree. If you can remain cordial, we can even have an enlightened and dignified discussion about. Doesn’t matter if we agree or not.

Joe,
You ask a good question. I don’t know of success/failure rates, but what I would say is that there seems to be two distinct types-the hardchargers and the halfassers, both of which you’ve written about.

I think perhaps the biggest problem for a lot of guys is that they don’t seem to have either the right information or just small bits of it. Of course, this in turn leads to completely wrong results.

But for real Joe, I really don’t think this thing is *that* hard. Its just a matter of commitment to make a change and having the balls to follow through, which, said to say, don’t seem to be major traits in guys these days.

Roissy is not exactly right on this. I despise the feminists and their bullshit as much as he does. But while cultural influence can’t make you like UGLY things like Helen Thomas or a fat dyke, it can sure affect what kind of attractive things you prefer.

Roissy, are you turned on by geishas? Admittedly we all more or less find them interesting or attractive–because they are. But do you find their make-up and the often-intended imperfections in its application “hot”? Because Japanese men do, or used to. Is that because their genes are different or because they had a more elevated or peculiar standard of taste?

[editor: are any of those geishas fat or ugly?]

Second question, are you turned on by pretty 14-19 year old boys? Because historically men have found them preferable to women, almost everywhere in the world.

[no, they haven’t. that’s just faggot agit-prop.]

This was true throughout the Orient (medieval Arabic love poetry is most often about boys), in ancient Greece and Rome, among the ancient barbarian Celts, in Japan, etc.; were those men’s genetics that different from yours? Why don’t Western men today pursue the same kind of beauty? Could it have something to do with the law, social forces, etc., even modern feminism?

[no. heterosexual men don’t pursue 14 year old boys because they prefer women.]

Finally it is true that men find that waist-to-hip ratio universally attractive. But it is not true that men find hysterical women who’ve spent all day in aerobics class attractive. That’s very likely a homosexualized taste. A *little* bit of flesh is womanly.

Roissy–
Modern gays “oppose” pederasty. They’re allied with the feminists on this.

I gave you examples of several cultures where men preferred pretty boys to women.

[editor: “several cultures” is not “all men in the world across time”. i ask again, are you a fag? answer the question.]

You’re just asserting that’s “homosexual agitprop.” Let’s make this a bit more precise; I’ll get you on the facts. Are you saying ancient Greek sources talk about (erotic) love with boys more often or with women more often? Are you saying the ancient Celts preferred women? That pederasty was uncommon in Japan or not universal in the Middle East? Which part exactly is agitprop?

[don’t confuse availability with preference.]

Oh and “heterosexual” men in your definition is a feminist invention that didn’t exist before the 20th century and still doesn’t exist in much of the third world (or among Obsidian’s homeboys).

Anony is angry because I slapped the herring out of her hand as she was about to lustily chomp down on it. While making her argument, she got distracted by the uneaten fish still on the floor, hence her incomplete thought above. That’s talkin’ with fat chicks for ya!

In cultures that effectively prevent men from having premarital or extramarital sex by sequestering their women away, such as Ancient Greece or large swathes of the Muslim world, men will often look for sexual outlets in younger men. That is the cultural context for all that boy love poetry.

you always made a difference between game per se and PUA lifestyle of Roosh and CH, or VK and Ricky Raw. Game per se is simply being a man which involves no misogyny.

PUA lifestyle involves dating much more women and, as TJF would say, much more contact with sluts.

also, define “misogyny”. If a woman describes me some event, specially situations which involves conflict, I always assume that the description is biased and require further investigation, further opinions. I do this with my mother, btw. Does it qualify me as a “matriginist” ?

2) You attack my bmi data by attacking me. My bmi is just fine, thanks. Is it possible that your unhealthy crusade is rooted in your own struggles with weight?

your bmi data is from the nih, a *health* organization with feminist leanings (i know, i used to date a couple of nurses from there. it’s politicized.) as i pointed out to you above but which you are either too stupid or too disingenuous to acknowledge, health and beauty overlap but they aren’t a perfect correlation. a 25 bmi may be a healthy weight for many women at that size, but it isn’t an optimal attractivness weight. 17 – 23 bmi is perfectly healthy, AND it is the range within which women are most attractive to men.

i ask for your weight and height because it is pertinent to this discussion for determining your motive to defend the indefensible.

3)Someone upstream speculated that you R. subconsciously may prefer underweight infertile women who may not get pregnant? Interesting thought.

interesting to you, because you are likely a fat fuck who detests my message. but unfortunately for your fragile ego, my taste in women is perectly in line with the norm for the huge majority of straight men. and nothing indicates female fertility like a lucious, SLENDER 17 -23 bmi.

4) If you truely prefer underweight women, may I suggest the Baribieg tribe in East Africa. Skeletal they are. Take a sack of lentils along.

4)Agree that historic art doesn’t clarify whether the intent was to portray erotic, beauty, cute , or healthy. Well, I’ll only speak for myself , but I don’t *want* anyone (other than my husband) to regard me as sexy. I’d prefer to be regarded as *beauty* over sexy.

Gig,
I don’t ever recall mentioning RooshV, for the simple reason that I don’t know him eiher way. Of course I’ve heard of him, but I’ve yet to visit his site or read his book, though I have plans to do both in the weeks ahead.

But I see your point. Still, Style doesn’t seem to evidence the same kinds of tone that you and others do per his book The Game. Maybe he does and just didn’t include it in the book, etc. But the overall vibe I get from him is different than the one I get from you, Gig. There’s a big difference. And that’s what concerns me.

As for the definition of “misogyny” for me it simply means a hatred and contempt for Women, which I see a good bit of here and elsewhere. Again, I’m not talkin about supplicating here. I’m talking about saying to me are unreasonably harsh things about Women. That’s what I could consider misogynistic.

anony the fat and cuckold apologist:I’ve never apologized nor advocated for fatties.

you are doing it right now by waving around the nih study and insinuating from it that 17 bmi is unhealthy for women. then going on and on how a woman that thin must have fractured hips.
really, do you think you’re fooling anyone?

how tall are you? How much do you weigh?

i asked first.

Are you struggling with your own weight? Is your self-loathing spilling out with projection onto others?

Thursday—
(and anyone else who’s interested)
here’s Diodorus Siculus book 5 on the ancient Celts. I don’t think the Celts were known for sequestering their women by the way,

“Although they have good-looking women, they pay very little attention to them, but are really crazy about having sex with men. They are accustomed to sleep on the ground on animal skins and roll around with male bed-mates on both sides. Heedless of their own dignity, they abandon without qualm the bloom of their bodies to others. And the most incredible thing is that they don’t think this is shameful. But when they proposition someone, they consider it dishonourable if he doesn’t accept the offer.”

I can quote two or three other ancient historians for more of this if you want.

But Thursday, the argument you’re making is similar to the one feminists and others make, that “social repression” is responsible for determining what men like and don’t like. In truth, as PA points out, men in Greece had slave-girls and others available for sex as often as they liked. They still preferred boys for romantic affairs, etc.; my point is that modern culture is not able to make you like something ugly, but yes, it’s able to make you prefer one type of beauty over another, or even repress your attraction to certain kinds of beauty. Roissy doesn’t get an instant hard-on at irregularities in the make-up of a geisha for example.

fag:But Thursday, the argument you’re making is similar to the one feminists and others make, that “social repression” is responsible for determining what men like and don’t like.

it’s not “social repression” of male hetero desire that accounts for pederasty in specific cultures, it’s availability of women. many horny hetero men without access to women for long periods of time will drain their blue balls in whatever is at hand.
as a fag intimately familiar with the shit-crusted anus and the anonymous glory hole, you should understand this primitive urge by men to relieve their sexual tension in whatever hole in a storm.

Roissy doesn’t get an instant hard-on at irregularities in the make-up of a geisha for example.

anony the fat and cuckold apologist:Rossy,
today my bmi is 23. 2
last week it was 23. 3

assuming you’re not lying (and this is a big assumption considering how many iterations of my innocent questions i had to ask before you fessed up), then you are at an acceptable bmi. congrats, don’t fuck it up by gaining anymore weight, or your hubby will lose his desire, and then his love, for you.
count on it.

Are you struggling with your weight, Roissy,?

nope.

How tall are you? How much do you weight?

4 foot. 350 pounds.

Are you viciously projecting your self-loathing onto others?

nah, i’m viciously disemboweling your soul because you are a filthy cunt.

One, because I think a lot of Men think that to change something about themselves, means in essence, that they are not good enough as they are.

In direct contrast, I know that I’m not good enough and that any woman can do far better than me even if I was well paid with a professional career. I am a “sub-human” male.

The second reason why I think a lot of guys are so resistant to the core message of Game is due to Fear.

When your daydreams of yourself acting in the manner of male who uses game induces fear and terror in one’s psyche, then obviously, game is not for you. I’d much rather be the frail, sub-human male. While it means that I miss on women, it means that I’m free to avoid changing to become some over hyped, over-testosterone fuelled impulsive male that has behaviours that basically scare off white people, nor can I be that protective guy that even the nerdy girls want in their lives.

In other the words, to become what women want requires destroying me and without massive amounts of alcohol and drugs of illicit and legal purposes, that will never happen.

while never stopping to think the lengths so many Women go to, to become “someone else”

The drive to fuck alpha males is far stronger in women. Orgasm with alphas is the difference between a complete life and a shallow, empty life for most women.

Obs, I think RisWrong was trying to say that there’s a certain down-low culture for the brothers.

Anyway, interesting game discussion, O. It is true, I’ve witnessed the distinctions of being blessed with allegedly attractive resume fillers (good looks, tall, in-shape, smart, rich, etc.) vs game…or at least people who are good at getting girls. Being a natural or being outgoing seems to always win. I think Style summarized it well, it’s just a sales pitch…it’s not lying, it’s flirting.

Anyway, yeah, guys are willing to get lipo, hair plugs, whatever, to become what they think it is that girls want. If this Game thing does work in the real world, it’s probably the best thing a guy can do for his life.

As for asking Roissy’s BMI, the thing is is that men’s BMI numbers are bullshit. If a guy can bench about 150% of his weight, then his BMI is 5 points or more out of whack. Girls, on the other hand, don’t pack on muscle…they pack on a caboose.

anony, roissy isn’t saying BMIs of 17-23 are ideally attractive based ONLY on his own personal preferences and eyewitness experience.

There have been several studies about the role of BMI in sexual attractiveness. They all show that ‘attractiveness ratings’ drop off sharply under BMI 17, peak at ratings of 19-20, and slope gently into the higher numbers with a sharper drop-off after BMI 25.

Admittedly, the most convincing study was performed on only 700 people in only two populations: British and Malaysian men AND WOMEN. Hardly conclusive.

I’m starting to like Bonnie. She’s like Aoefe — a feminist apostate who now cherishes Game. Her professions of thinness are a nice plus, and the exteremely high likelihod that she has cute little a-cups is a sweet deal-closer.

What is interesting in this whole low BMI – hotness thing (to which I totally agree) is the progressive slenderness of sex symbols in popular culture. I think it’s like professional athletes, we keep improving, just like the 72 Dolphins would lose to today’s Detroit Lions, better diets, better exercise, etc.

I wouldn’t say I cherish ‘game’. But I do get a kick out of this site. I’ve never been a troll before.

I am a ‘member’ of the Fat Acceptance movement, btw. I think it’s humanity’s natural state to be thin, and our recent fatness as a species is due to improper diet – same as the fatness of our dogs and cars (carnivores should be eating meat, not preserved starch-based kibble), and with zoo animals fed packaged processed feed instead of the real foods they would be eating in their natural habitat.

I am not disgusted by fat people (although I am not sexually attracted to fat men, with women I am more flexible), nor do I think they deserve to be shamed. The vast majority can’t help their weight and are unhappy about it. Most I know don’t eat more than I do (which is a lot for a tiny girl, but not for a normal person).

lurker–
It’s corroborated by 3 or so other sources at least. Also my argument was not based only on the Celts. Pederasty was not a secret among for example the Greek upper class, where access to slave girls was easy. It was in fact de rigueur. I can’t keep repeating all these examples. Basically anywhere outside the influence of Judaic morality or strict Christianity, homosexual behavior and especially pederasty have been at least as widespread as relations with women, if not more so.

You don’t have to take my word about history. If you don’t believe me take a trip to the Middle East, Thailand, Brazil, etc.; men in traditional cultures define their manhood by whether they are active or on top, not whether they can get strong wimmins to peg them.

Aeofe: So ladies beware if your guy is saying you look good with more weight on – he may be just keeping you unavailable as an option to other men.

It’s nice to see a female indulging in the Darwinian just-so stories that’s usually the province of male armchair theorists. While it’s possible that your reasoning may be true, the simpler explanation is that your guy was telling the truth.

Some guys are like CH or PA in that only thin women give them boners. But many guys, a significant minority — even white guys like myself — only get hard for women with some extra padding. Males are more variable in all categories, any distribution of males is going to have fatter tails, more data points which stray from the average.

However, if your man wants you to gain so much weight that you lose your .7 WHR or go from an hourglass shape to globular, it’s more likely that he’s a fetishistic freak than that he’s trying to sabotage your prospects with other guys.

1. I may have to look up more about the Celts, but one has to be extremely careful about ethnographic information from outside sources. Western outsiders from Herodotus (“the father of lies”) to Tacitus to all the “noble savage” stuff after the discovery of the Americas to Margaret Mead have fed us all sorts of crazy stories about exotic cultures. A lot of them had pretty blatant ideological motives. In contrast, we know a lot more about Greek and Muslim societies from their own sources.

2. PA is conflating Greeks from the earlier, Homeric period and the later Classical period. The earlier period had just as much emotional intimacy between men (Achilles and Patroclus endlessly proclaim their love for each other in the Iliad), but no glorification or extensive practice of homosexuality (it’s Briseis of the sweet cheeks, not Patroclus). This earlier period was characterized by taking of female slaves for sex.

During the Classical period, wives had absolute control over female slaves, so, while slavery was extensive, men did not actually have much access to sex with their slaves. The deafening silence you hear about slave reproduction in Athens (contrast with Rome) speaks volumes. And this, not coincidently, was the era when homosexuality became acceptable among Athenians.

The emotional intimacy among men part didn’t change between the two periods, but access to women did.

I wrote: But many guys, a significant minority — even white guys like myself — only get hard for women with some extra padding.

This is unclear, so I’ll clarify. In my estimation, guys who would reject Alessandra Ambrosio in favor of Crystal Renn make up perhaps as much as a little under half of white guys, a majority of non-white Latino and black males, and a miniscule minority of Asian males.

this year, pupu has been swimming more diligently. as a result, she is more solid and 2 lbs heavier than her past summer average. people seem to prefer her new dried sausage look than her past cheetos crunchy look.

If, by anorexics, you mean the far gone death camp residential look, then no…but the washed up junkie whose skin looks like a bag of bones, varicose veins, and peas or something, then yes they have. In fact, some of these anorexics have been lauded right here as supreme beauties we are all supposed to emulate.

…with makeup and airbrushing, of course.

That, I take in stride as the usual sheeplism. It’s nothing out of the ordinary.

The fact that it is so ordinary is the bit that’s disappointing to me. I’d rather see more bridge girl, and less photoshop girl lauded as beauties. The photoshopped, made up models are part of the matrix. It’s a part some of you are very attached to, as it provides you a platform to criticise and demean women who don’t meet or pursue that “ideal”, but as convenient as these women are as sticks to beat others with, they’re blistering your own hands more than they’re improving the health of western women.

Yes, I know, I’m an ugly fat bitch, blah blah…but thinking I’m an ugly fat bitch isn’t going to save you from the consequences of your mate choices if they’re bad. My fat ass isn’t going to protect you if you select a hoe or a psycho.

Health and looks usually have little to do with each other. I am freakishly healthy and always have been, by all measures (I hardly ever get colds, even), but I looked like I was in a concentration camp when I weighed 89 lbs. I should post a pic of myself at 94 lbs.. most of you would not be complimentary.

‘Anorexic’ is a meaningless term to describe someone’s looks. My best friend in high school was anorexic/bulimic from ages 13-17 (ate hardly anything and threw up what she did). She was 5’6″, could never get her weight below 111 lbs, had perfect, glowing skin, thick hair, and a lovely little figure with perky boobs.

She also had esophageal and tooth damage, couldn’t concentrate and fainted frequently, had low electrolytes, and in general felt like shit. But she looked the picture of health. (She is fully recovered at age 23 – I think she’s about 20 lbs heavier now.)

Your resistance to colds may be due to your previously mentioned habit of eating very little. According to the caveman diet guru Arthur De Vany, prisoners (of war, I believe) are far less likely to show symptoms of a pathogen sweeping through their camp if they eat less food, less often. My own resistance to pathogens has increased greatly since casually adopting a low-carb plus intermittent fasting lifestyle. Before I amended my eating habits, I would get the flu every year, since changing about three years ago, I haven’t had the flu once, and have only experienced one cold during this time, after eating too many baked grain products. The nasal allergy symptoms which were a constant of my childhood have also disappeared.

I’m sure nothing good would come from me posting personal photos on this site. I’m tempted, but I won’t. Really it would only be to prove I look (or looked) like I claim I do (or did).. and how would you know it was me anyway? My body-double is Candice Swanepoel (but a bit thinner). Broad shoulder girdle, skinny arms, narrow torso/waist, slim but curved hips/legs. Take it or leave it, but you don’t need to see the real me.

I eat generously, I need to in order to maintain my weight. I count calories sporadically and it seems I average 2000-2500 per day.

I do get most of my calories from fat, secondarily from protein, and don’t eat any sugar (or fruit juice).. I do eat some grains, fruits, and lots of vegetables.

I’m all about the paleolithic diet and low-carbing, but those weirdos who think they are going to live forever because they only eat 900 calories per day and look like skeletons.. they just have eating disorders IMO.

It is true that women tend to like models that they could personally relate. Often times, the resemblance only exists in our own mind, others could not really tell. For that reason, Pupu suspects Anony vaguely resembles Yulia Tymoshenko, someone she mentioned awhile ago. Just a guess.

@epoxy – I’m so naive as to think one would want to protect and possess his, uh, desirable woman. Please explain.

Men who have a healthy sense of self and are confident in their own ability to keep his woman would not have this issue. Men who have self doubt and are perhaps overly controlling will use means to keep his own demons at bay. In my case I was attracted to his jealousy (red flag) and his insistence I stay by his side. I thought it meant he loved me and was proud of me. He did and he was but he still needed protection from outside threats (he thought so but he didn’t) and didn’t directly encourage weight gain but didn’t mind me eating. When we met I was an exercise instructor and sung in a rock band. He began to control my life in subtle ways and I gave up singing and teaching – he didn’t mind because honestly he knew I had options far bigger than I imagined if I kept doing what I was doing. My idiocy for being too naive to see what was going on.

Lots of info, but in short what I am saying to women is be careful if he says he doesn’t mind you pudging out – all men love hot bods. He’s got other motives and they are not loving or healthy.

This entire thread is nothing but a reflection of post-modern mleccadom (google mleccha).

The thought that a human being’s value is relegated to the amount of meat or lack thereof on her bones is something that could only be thought of in Babylon-America.

The wisdom of the greats and the ancients tells us something different. That life, and that of a human life, is something more profound.

Because family is no longer valued in Babylon, men and women no longer look for markers of fertility and instead sub-consciously look for markers of infertility and impotence. Hence the fetish for waif-like, boy-like women and effeminate “metro-sexual” men with small penises ala Mystery and his clones.

As a cultured, educated, refined, professional Asian woman with family values, I ask:

Where are all the REAL men and women at?

(yes, penis size is still correlated with “manliness” in many womens’ eyes. just deal with it)

Obsidian,
I’m talking about the “DL Bruthas” LOL …which includes like 95% of urban blacks today.

I have some gay friends. They told me your typical thug black guy would NEVER turn down a blowjob from another guy.

In all fairness, it’s the same in much of the 3d world and maybe in a lot of working class neighborhoods.

Oh be quiet. “I have some gay friends.” Yeah, they’re so reliable. Gay people claim EVERYONE is in the closet, they’re notorious at exaggerating and claiming people are gay. Ask a gay person and they’ll claim every last male celebrity fucked some fag they know. Gay mags have tried to out every single male celebrity out there, even posthumously. They’re the last group I’d ever trust for honesty about the extent of homosexuality ANYWHERE.

Roissyiswrong: you are completely full of shit, or at least full of silliness. The Greeks and Romans, by and large, even the upper classes, considered homosexuality to be extremely shameful. That’s why a guy like Diodorus Siculus (a Greek Roman) wrote about the Celts in that way; he considered Celtic behavior scandalous (it was probably also made up, but that’s another story). There is a lot of published nonsense about this, which seems to imply that all Greeks and Romans were buggers. In fact, a lot of the “evidence” for this is approximately equivalent to rap musicians calling each other “faggot.” Sure, some cultures have rampant homosexuality; Greeks and Romans were not really among those; at least for most of their history. Saying the Greeks were boy-lovers is about as sensible as saying Teddy Roosevelt era Americans were boy lovers because of the existence of NAMBLA in the late 20th century.

Lupo,
You’re so off the mark I shouldn’t even bother to answer you. Diodorus Siculus objected to the Celts letting themselves get penetrated, not to their homosexual behavior. Read the passage again. This gets mentioned by 2-3 other historians by the way (Atheneus, etc.), in quite different terms. And no…the Greek and Roman upper classes did not consider homosexuality shameful, they considered letting yourself get fucked shameful. However, fucking a man (or a boy) was considered the opposite, and they engaged in this freely. On top of this, the Greek (but not Roman) upper class had a ritualized and much-known pederastic tradition which was the opposite of shameful (and did not include sodomy). You can’t even read many love stories, etc., from Classical era that are about women–it’s all about boys. Their whole educational system was based on this, especially in Sparta and Crete. It’s mentioned in an off-hand manner by almost every writer of the time. No one is disputing this. You need to do some reading before you mouth off like that.

My whole point here is that in traditional cultures manliness is defined by whether you’re on top, not by whether you’re with a woman. If you’re passive with a woman, like most of you are, you’re still a bitch.

However this is getting quite off topic. My point was that throughout history men have preferred boys, not women. Now they don’t. This clearly has to do with our laws and culture, and not with biology, which is apparently suppressed.

Joe, again you miss the point…”gay rights” stuff is indeed not allowed in third world cultures, and even unheard of in some places. However, homosexual behavior is very common in the places I mentioned. I’d guess Jamaica would be an epicenter for buggery; I know that Dominican Rep. is. It’s also common among inner-city blacks in the US. “Gay rights” has very little to do with man-on-man sex and very much to do with a feminist agenda. In the Gulf states gay rights has no place; homosexual behavior is nonstop. If you don’t believe me go there yourself, or visit even Morocco or parts of Turkey…if you’re a guy alone and have blond hair prepare to defend yourself against a mob.

I guess those guys need Roissy to tell them that they prefer women and they’ve been brainwashed by their societies…wait…isn’t that the kind of argument feminists use here??

PA
Whiggers are indeed scum. The droopy pants is a black jail custom. The guys who had been made “punks” (passives, catamites, etc.) had to wear their pants like that to indicate “readiness” for being fucked. I’m not joking, you can check this. That’s where the style comes from…

Yes PA, because buggery doesn’t run rampant in the West. :roll: NOTHING beats the Western man when it comes to tolerating buggery in his midst. Hell, even promoting it. Show a third worlder a show like Queer Eye and see the looks you get.

“My point was that throughout history men have preferred boys, not women. Now they don’t.”…………….

Um, the still do.

Check for all the comments about “willowy” and “waif-like” (read boy-like) women!

But what you say is correct.

Male on male sexual activity is prevelant in the Middle East

(from what some ME friends have told me and a dear European male family friend who travelled through there as a hippie back in the 70s – said the taxi drivers couldn’t keep their hands off his thighs!)

But it’s not considered “gay” because they are not looking for long-term romantic relationships. It’s just about the booty and that’s it.

,
Yup, homosexuality is indeed in the Black community, perhaps best known in its “downlow” form. No dispute there. And the points you make historically throughout much if not most, of the world’s cultures and climes makes a lot of sense to me.

That said, I don’t see what all of that has to do with the discussion at hand. True, I’ve gone on record as saying that the topic of the thread is a fool’s errand, because the only person one can change for certain is oneself. With that said though, I’m still having trouble seeing your point within the context of the discussion.

I’m not sure what RiW’s point is either. It’s pretty well known that in the past, if one wanted a society where women remained virgins until marriage, one had to tolerate homosexuality to a degree. Some were more discrete about it than others.

It’s also known that men like to screw, and often aren’t that picky about who. If anything, that should have warned western women of the futility of slutting around. It’s like a pointless aerobic activity, only at least you won’t get syphillis from normal exercise.

Maybe that’s his point…that men will do many things for a combination of sexual release and human contact, so women’s role in that shouldn’t be overvalued. Men can get that and more from each other. So aside of their regular human contribution in the workforce and such, women’s role as mothers are the only thing men really have to get from them. They therefore shouldn’t belittle that.

If they do, it’s not beyond men as a gender to basically reduce them to that.

We have an opportunity in western society, for women to be both good citizens and good mothers. We should be doing that instead of being both bad citizens and bad mothers.

However, I want to bring in the concept of tantric celibacy, which is utilized in South Asian culture, even to this day, amongst unmarried bachelors.

Our culture has the concept of semen as a highly nutritive substance that can fuel the body and brain to great heights when preserved and re-directed.

Our culture has the concept of “bramacharya” which is sometimes translated as “student”, sometimes as “bachelor” and sometimes as “celibate”.

It denotes that in one’s youth, while one is an unmarried student, one should preserve one’s energy and focus on studies, serving one’s parents and God.

Sex is meant for married life only.

There are still MANY people in South Asia who follow this.

Unfortunately there are many who don’t as well.

We also have the concept that every woman is to be seen by every male as “mother” or an incarnation of the Divine Mother Goddess, except of course one’s own wife, who is nonetheless seen as a Godddess also.

These are our cultural ideals that have been saved and passed on for more than centuries – for millenia.

SAW, but isn’t the other side of that coin, women viewing every man as the embodiment of the Divine Father?

It’s a kind of mutual trust that is supposed to exist at least between people of the same society. When that trust is broken between enough individuals, the society gets broken.

Both genders have to pull their weight…and on the real, Gays and androgynes, though much fewer than the others, also have to pull their weight too. Sexuality is such an important thing in both bonding and reproduction that societies cannot afford to strip them of trust.

Maybe the insertion of some Hindu ideas on that subject will do the west some good. It has done me and others a lot of good personally.

Thing is, few people in the general population are really interested in holding up their end of the deal. Even many who were raised with these or similarly lofty ideals, have in the past and still are abandoning them for the sake of immediate gratification.

Muslims, for instance, are *supposed* to consider both genders equally entitled to respect, but you see how things pan out in real life. The same is true for many Hindus, many Jews, many Christians, Buddhists, Animists…people tend to be very blindly selfish when it suits them.

I see tantric celibacy as a useful tool for guys who want to stay cool while they’re opting out of being a cheap disposable ego boosting resource for non marriage worthy women. In the grand scheme of things though, calm and patience may be a hunter’s greatest skills, but not the only ones he should have. He should also know how to shoot sharply.

This is one of the reasons I’m a proponent of game. Men should have options so they understand what they are getting into or opting out of.

Aoefe Women want to be the thinnest in their group they don’t want anyone skinnier than they are. What I’m saying is true but I wonder if any woman will back me up on that…hmmmmm. Not always aoefe, it varies from culture to culture.

[editor: no, it doesn’t vary from culture to culture. still trying to squeeze in the last idiotic word on this post, eh? not gonna happen while i’m policing you.]

@Joe- hey there big&meaty.
*winks at joe*

Tood want to draw your attention to what Indian civilization considered to be the optimal female body shape through over 5000 years of history
From the front, her body is just about perfect.

@ deepthought- no she wore a size 14 which is about a size 8-10 today.

I’m sorry, but I have to ask-so what? I mean, what difference is this going to make? Fat chicks will be around, and there’ll be someone around to date and bed them, the end. It won’t change anything. Why not merely focus on the gals you like?

[editor: no, it doesn’t vary from culture to culture. still trying to squeeze in the last idiotic word on this post, eh? not gonna happen while i’m policing you.]

My experience as a blk woman says otherwise.

[editor: your experience as anything, black or otherwise, doesn’t make a lick of difference. what matters is the science and what the majority of people can see with their own eyes — which is, men the world over prefer thin women to fat women, and women the world over compete to stay thin and desirable to men.]

We talk about having a bigger rounder better butt versus who is thinner.

editor: your experience as anything, black or otherwise, doesn’t make a lick of difference. what matters is the science and what the majority of people can see with their own eyes — which is, men the world over prefer thin women to fat women, and women the world over compete to stay thin and desirable to men.]

A social science study will tell you that blk american women, as a group, prefer to have round butts before wearing a size 2. So keep telling yourself what you wanna hear.

[editor: you weren’t arguing about what black american women would prefer to weigh in the ass, you were arguing about what *men* prefer in their women. and on the score, you are dead wrong, as per usual. most men prefer women of all races on the thinner side, with black men liking their women somewhat larger than men of all other races.. so keep telling everyone what you want them to hear.

@CH- yes and blk american men as a group would prefer their women to have weight in the ass versus wearing a size 0/2.

Just deal with it, they don’t like everything that you like.

[editor: did you not understand a fucking word i wrote? i mean, just how stupid are you? unfuckingbelievable. it’s like talking to a four year old. one more time, chiclet: nearly ALL men prefer thinner women to fatter women, yes even black men, though they don’t mind a few extra pounds on their women because they are less discriminating than men of other races. now, since you were arguing on behalf of ALL men, i helpfully set the record straight by correcting your fucking retardedness.]

Futhermore, my comment today was in response to the point aoefe made about women.

For your info, the blk ideal is about a size 8-12. Just look at the bodies of the most popular video models.

[you were talking about what ALL men like in ALL women, not what black men like in black women or what black women like in themselves. stop shifting your argument like a fucking two bit weasel and just take my lashing with some dignity for christs sake.]

“Women want to be the thinnest in their group they don’t want anyone skinnier than they are. What I’m saying is true but I wonder if any woman will back me up on that…hmmmmm.”

I don’t see this, but my POV is an odd one since I am and always have been far thinner than all my female friends.

Some women do envy me, but it’s because they see my life as carefree, not having to worry about a man thinking I am fat, or getting fat in the future. Most (it depends on how eating disordered they are) wouldn’t want to be as skinny as I – they know that T&A and a soft, feminine figure are what men are attracted to. Not that I don’t have proportionate curves, but proportions aren’t what men idealize. They want a balance of slenderness – not skinniness – and meatiness. Curves in the right places, nothing too thick, and certainly nothing spindly or bony (which I am).

I’ve noticed competition to be the hottest one who gets the most male attention – a competition that I’m excluded from because of my thinness, which isn’t optimally attractive to the majority of men.

Started reading the entire blog, but having a short attention span got bored with the point scoring pretty quickly, so I apologize if I repeat something that anybody has already said.

From an evolutionary perspective the main driver for both men and women in selecting a mate is to strengthen the chances of geneology surviving through time. The primary driver for this is fertility, followed closely by health. Therefore men will be attracted to young women who have enough hips to give birth to children without coming apart at the seams and breasts large enough nurture them whilst still managing to not look overly large or overweight. One of the key drivers for facial attractiveness is apparently symmetry – go figure..

Ha ha – you must have been tortured by a fat woman once (or are being tortured by one) and are lashing out for this reason. Men who have what they want have no reason to rant endlessly about what they don’t want…

really, female attractiveness is all in the eye of the beholder. some like big, some like little, it’s all relative. odds are, someone will find a woman attractive regardless. Now, if you yourself don’t like your weight, looks, etc….then change it if you want. but beauty isn’t always about one person’s view. in fact, that’s kind of ludicrous.

[Editor: In other news, Helen Thomas gets just as much positive attention from men as Mila Kunis.]