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It's a good point you make that the government viewed the vote as a once in a life time thing. Like I said, I don't think it's illegitimate in any way, just that it's a bad idea. But if the people elected said government, it's kind of the people's idea. Good point.

I don't think we're void of experts, CC, I just think every time an expert gets something wrong it's sensationalised. For example, that spacecraft that crashed on Mars some years back was huge news, but noone talks about the hundreds of missions that go ideally every year. Perhaps it has to do with normal folk like us feeling empowered "Hurr durr, see that smart guy made a mistake, therefore I'm entitled to my opinion that vaccines cause autism". People are pretty awful like that, no doubt in my mind about it.

You can claim the expert opinion was unfounded regarding the vote, and that is very much the case for some experts (or even most), but not all. The people behind Trump and Leave's wins are also experts in their own fields. Apparently just better than their opponents.

I do agree that the detachedness of the "elites" from the common people is painful to see at this point. I sometimes see it in my colleagues at uni (and I'm not even studying some bla-bla-humanitarian subject!). Just how detached some of them are of some of the issues facing the average Joe and Jill, preaching some supposedly higher morals with no regard for the practical cost. One of my best friends almost disowned me because I kept insisting that if a country decides to close its borders and disallow immigration, it is entitled to do so!

The depressing bit is that I'm probably just as blind to other issues, but can't necessarily see it.

Didn't a study show that Liverpool and Merseyside voted remain due to the fact that the Pro EU "Daily Mirror" replaced the anti EU "The Sun" after the Hillsborough Disaster?
Seemingly wealthy, older English people voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, including retired wealthy English people in Wales who swung the vote to leave in the Principality. So it was an English vote to leave - Engxit would be more accurate

Didn't a study show that Liverpool and Merseyside voted remain due to the fact that the Pro EU "Daily Mirror" replaced the anti EU "The Sun" after the Hillsborough Disaster?
Seemingly wealthy, older English people voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, including retired wealthy English people in Wales who swung the vote to leave in the Principality. So it was an English vote to leave - Engxit would be more accurate

Amongst other reasons, a large part of why Liverpool and Merseyside voted remain was/is because of the money they are/were getting from the EU.

So is Bojo resigning now or what? This whole thing is such a mess, it'd be hilarious, if weren't so detrimental to the EU and UK.

Resigning for what exactly ? Never !

Bojo will carry on fighting, to deliver Brexit and restore the UK as a respectable sovereign democracy for the people, if necessary for years until the next election, if necessary alone against the establishment.

Bojo will carry on fighting, to deliver Brexit and restore the UK as a respectable sovereign democracy for the people, if necessary for years until the next election, if necessary alone against the establishment.

Johnson IS the establishment, he needs removing

Democracy? Johnson? You are having a laugh aren't you?

I'm of this point of view

Cameron is to blame for all the delay and everything being so problematic because he didn't to and risk or legality assessments prior to giving ppl a vote to leave

A lot of people voted to leave with a deal and not no deal because a lot really are gullible enough to believe everything Johnson promised them in the EU Ref

A lot of ppl thought Remain was a forgone conclusion and didn't turn out to vote with some even making a protest vote

Johnson's repeated claims of "The will of 17.4m ppl" is entirely false because 17.4m didn't vote for no deal

In the UK a 'Term' for Gov lasts 5 years unless the Gov calls the election earlier

In 2017 millions of people had changed their minds from how they voted just 2 years earlier in 2015

In 2017 54% of people voted for a parties either ruling out no deal or with a remain stance, 44% voted Tory, although they were thought to be negotiating a deal at that time. even if all the 44% who voted Tory were for no deal, it was still blindingly obvious that the majority did not want or give any mandate for a no deal Brexit

Considering the length of a 'term' and how many millions changed their minds between 2015 and 2017 and that 3 years have passed since the referendum, the only reasonable democratic way of resolving Brexit is to let the people have the final say

The US model the UK has followed for 40 years is very broken and we desperately need to move away from it. The money the UK pay to the EU is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of taxpayers money that's syphoned out of the system through privatisation each year which is 100's of billions

"If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

If you think Johnson alone is 'the establishment' you are sorely mistaken. The same 'establishment' you speak of contains those on the so called opposite side of the fence to Johnson, such as those judges who ruled that his suspension of parliament was illegal.

Why did they all vote that way? Well some believe it's because they want to ride the EU gravy train and get jobs (they may have already been 'offered' to them) within the European courts, something that was put forward to those saying they are/were all 'impartial' when all twelve voted the same way. 'They' are in it for themselves, as are most other politicians and those with power including those who have been made out to be anything but part of the perceived 'establishment'.

Most of these politicians are one and the same, they just wear slightly different masks and take slightly different routes to the same destination. Most of those who voted leave want/wanted to leave one way or the other, with a favourable deal being the preferred option, but being 'fine' with a no-deal Brexit if we're not offered a deal that Britain finds acceptable.

If you think Johnson alone is 'the establishment' you are sorely mistaken.

Lol I do NOT think that, I do know my conclusions I drew as a 12/13 year old that adopting the US social and economic model, selling council homes for votes and privatisation were the road to the ruination of the UK were absolutely correct

You get a shit load of absolute whoppers posting RW crap on twatter and FB about how everything is the EU's fault and having followed it since I formed my beliefs and watched it turn to shit for the reasons I thought it would for the last 36 years it's really easy to pull it apart. Long threads about the EU gave this, that and the other company a loan to move to x, y or z and you're like ok, rewind 30 odd years and work your way forward and you'll see how a lack of investment in Uk business, poor living standards, poverty wages, tax breaks for crony donors instead of tax breaks for companies offering long term investment to create jobs with dedicated 'paying' development programs for a highly skilled workforce and increasing levels of stress fucked UK productivity levels, skills levels and industry

Really need a Corbyn Gov, Labour are the only party who are offering a move away from the broken model with sensible plans to. I'm not living on cloud cuckoo land thinking it won't be hard or take time, it took us 40 yrs to get where we are from where we were, it will make a difference to a lot of the most vulnerable immediately, but it's going to take 3 or 4 terms to really fix things, need to do what the Tories did and at the very least successfully change the model to the extent that any Gov that follows (God forbid) can't easily undo what's been done and has to follow the new model

"If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”