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Chat about all things GM (and related cars). Off-topic stuff should be in the Lounge, and all Model specific mechanical problems should be posted in the proper forum.

Well, it went pretty much as i thought. I popped in on them and they quickly went three on one with me.

Their story: The check engine was a DTC of misfire. The PCM threw the "traction control" off. Miracles of miracles. they now discovered a coolant leak at the sensor at the top of the radiator, and that was my problem with losing 1 1/2 gallons of coolant in 2 weeks.

"OK, but there was never any coolant on the outside of the radiator, below on the supports, or on the ground.

"No, the mechanic saw the leak and we're replacing it."

"BTW, which cylinder was misfiring."

"the DTC was the 1st cylinder. It was from bad gas or some residue."

" I signed the work request that you save all parts. Can i see it?"

"the mechanic cleaned it and put it back in and it works fine."

"Ok, if i concede that, doesn't it seem odd that I have a coolant leak problem and a fouled plug at the same time? here'* a picture of the #1 plug on Sunday and it looks like it has been burning coolant"

No, that'* how a plug looks, clean on one side and the carbon fire on the other side. The white on the electrode is because it gets so hot."

"Then why would it foul 15 miles later."

"just some gunk on the spark plug."

Round and round we go. But that'* the essence. i came within an inch of getting some manager to OK a 1000 mile extension for the coolant issue. he went over and talked to my salesman. When he found out i got it for $4800 (in real dollars) with the warranty, I suddenly became one of the Beverly Hillbillies.

Have to give them credit, these people were fully convinced their lowroad fully integrated story made sense. It was kind of like listening to politicians doing some spinning.

So i have 200 miles to destroy the engine. If the thing will even make it off the lot when I pick it up.

No matter how it works out, we probably won't be exchanging Christmas cards.

That is not how a plug looks. They are making every effort not to fix your car. Tell them you know it is most likely the LIM gaskets or the UIM has failed.

Stupid of me. That was the preface to my whole discussion above. I should have mentioned that'* where I started. The intake stack.

Now keep in mind, they are in the middle of a very busy day, and sicked on me 2 mechanics, the service manager, and visits from Troy the Manager. I don't think anybody knows who Troy really is except to try and intimidate people. No less than 40 minutes to try to talk me down.

Now why would they spend that kind of money for a discussion with some old man.... Because it'* cheaper than replacing IMs and manifold.

By Magnuson Moss (there'* a little help from PA law, too) i have to give them at least 3 attempts to fix something. And make written exception to their solution. I have all of their records of my problems and made 1 written exception. I will most likely get the car tomorrow, loose coolant and write the 2nd exception. Then will do it again. Then I have to report them to a couple of bureaus, and file with a "conciliatory" court. It'* like small claims. I don't need a lawyer. But they will.

They are using the "fallacy argument from authority" because they are in the business, they are right. I did screw up though, when i called earlier, I mentioned that i had the photos of plug #1. When I got there, they had destroyed the evidence by cleaning the plug instaed of replacing it. Plus they had not only cleared the DTCs, but had disconnected the battery so some of my emission monitors hadn't collected enough data yet to be active on my scantool.

For some reason It'* personal to them. they are not going to give me my way.

That may sound neurotic, but their logic is so flawwed at times as to be ludicrous.

My only question at this point, is there any way to prove with hard evidence that the intake setup is leaking?

Could go public on them... or threaten to. Contact the Better Business Bureau, or one of the TV news guys that tell stories of how consumers get ripped off...

Thank you for your thought Lady in Maple Red. I will do things in due course... but you know what bugs me.....

Here, besides being fine people...the BC is THE authority on Bonnevilles and the 3.8L . Everything I relayed to them is a result of the club'* thousands of experiences, great depth of knowledge, and doggone solid wrenchsense. They are too prideful to think they could learn something from some bunch of Bonneville Club nitwits.

On their side they had a veteran mechanic telling me that burnt coolant would be showing (well) up on the threads of the plug. I asked him to respectfully not insult my intelligence. Jr mechanic told me you can't remove the plenum without having to remove the UIM and LIM (I forgot about that one).

I do not want this done, but i would take great pleasure if everbody downloaded the plug pictures, identifiy themselves as members of BC, and tell those hacks they are full of crap about it being a healthy plug. I could have used an extra hand today. 2-3-4 against one and they start to actually believe their own BS is true.

I think you should just quietly take your car to a Pontiac dealer somewhere else, and tell them that you think you're losing coolant, and that you suspect a major failure of your intake manifold gaskets, and that you'd like them to diagnose it and give you an estimate for what it would take to repair it. Don't tell them you have a warranty.

Pay for them to check it out. In medicine, this is what we'd call "getting a second opinion."

Dealer service departments (who didn't sell you your car) LOVE to find stuff wrong with your car so they can get a big repair bill out of you. Once you have your official in-writing diagnosis and estimate, take your car back to your dealer and show them what your second opinion had to say about it.

Your dealership can feel free to disagree with your second opinion all they want. But in small claims court, you'd be home free. You'd have essentially proved that your dealership was trying to hoodwink you and get out of properly fixing your car. You could sue for the cost of getting the second estimate plus the costs of actual repairs.

And to play Devil'* advocate; if your second opinion dealer findings are the same as your dealer, you'll have some peace of mind that your coolant leak was minor after all. You'll just have to keep an eye on your coolant for that day when your gaskets really do get eaten away.