My favorite part was when Hawkman said "i'm going to beat the poo poo out of you so you'll agree to my demands". Yeah, that's a surefire way to make me like your character.

I think I might be alone in not being bothered about that scene. It appears to have been meant to establish that they're both physical people who like to fight and have confidence in their skill at it, Hawk-girl as well as Hawk-man. She agreed to it and obviously favored her chances to say she did so. We don't see Hawkman grab her from behind when she wasn't expecting it and then beating her senseless or anything. It was a mutual thing, and I'm fine with that. I found the actual footage of the two of them flying at each other worse, just because it was so awkward looking.

On the whole though, I was far more bothered by the idea that a metahuman like Firestorm, who in the context of this show has to be the second most powerful metahuman on Earth at this time, if not the most powerful could somehow be so worthless a hero that he's barely remembered historically. I think Ray being that unimportant is somewhat stretching things too given not just his powers, but his intellect, money, charisma and drive. I cannot see him just remaining an unknown hero in that setting with all that going for him unless he dies again sometime in the next few weeks without Rip coming to collect him. The rest I can see all remaining unknown and unimportant, because for various reasons all of them have a desire to hide themselves away from the spotlight. Heatwave and Captain Cold are just small time crooks at the end of the day, Sarah just wants to deal with her own poo poo, not be a hero and the Hawks are looking to hide from Savage and have been for a long time. Firestorm and Atom though? Just not buying it.

Oh, and Savage is a severely underwhelming villain and I don't really see that changing, so I hope Chronos gets more screentime and personality to beef up the show's villain roster or something.

I think I might be alone in not being bothered about that scene. It appears to have been meant to establish that they're both physical people who like to fight and have confidence in their skill at it, Hawk-girl as well as Hawk-man. She agreed to it and obviously favored her chances to say she did so. We don't see Hawkman grab her from behind when she wasn't expecting it and then beating her senseless or anything. It was a mutual thing, and I'm fine with that. I found the actual footage of the two of them flying at each other worse, just because it was so awkward looking.

On the whole though, I was far more bothered by the idea that a metahuman like Firestorm, who in the context of this show has to be the second most powerful metahuman on Earth at this time, if not the most powerful could somehow be so worthless a hero that he's barely remembered historically. I think Ray being that unimportant is somewhat stretching things too given not just his powers, but his intellect, money, charisma and drive. I cannot see him just remaining an unknown hero in that setting with all that going for him unless he dies again sometime in the next few weeks without Rip coming to collect him. The rest I can see all remaining unknown and unimportant, because for various reasons all of them have a desire to hide themselves away from the spotlight. Heatwave and Captain Cold are just small time crooks at the end of the day, Sarah just wants to deal with her own poo poo, not be a hero and the Hawks are looking to hide from Savage and have been for a long time. Firestorm and Atom though? Just not buying it.

Oh, and Savage is a severely underwhelming villain and I don't really see that changing, so I hope Chronos gets more screentime and personality to beef up the show's villain roster or something.

I felt that Ray ended up becoming unimportant because his biggest achievements were behind him. He was a bigtime inventor/industrialist, but set it aside to become a hero--and ultimately ended up doing nothing of note after he came back. At least, nothing significant enough to disrupt the timeline much. Same with Firestorm. It's entirely possible that they were going to become lost in the crowd as more heroes emerge.

And hell, we don't know how Gideon figures out who is relevant to the timeline. Might be "Someone else could have done X, also had opportunity, would achieve essentially the same result."

Yeah the Hawkpeople relationship is in some weird territory. Kendra goes from 'no I don't know you you rapist' to 'ok maybe I am part hawk and we had this past relationship' to 'yes I am your mom, guy i've never met before ever'

"We go out for one louzy drink and you somehow manage to pick a fight with boba fett." *cocks gun*

I think most of it is just nitpicking, which is what goons are known for The pilot may not have been perfect, but it established the plot, gave some laughs and had some cool action in it. Really that's all an action show needs to be at the end of the day. If you want hard hitting drama, go to AMC or HBO.

On the whole though, I was far more bothered by the idea that a metahuman like Firestorm, who in the context of this show has to be the second most powerful metahuman on Earth at this time, if not the most powerful could somehow be so worthless a hero that he's barely remembered historically. I think Ray being that unimportant is somewhat stretching things too given not just his powers, but his intellect, money, charisma and drive. I cannot see him just remaining an unknown hero in that setting with all that going for him unless he dies again sometime in the next few weeks without Rip coming to collect him. The rest I can see all remaining unknown and unimportant, because for various reasons all of them have a desire to hide themselves away from the spotlight. Heatwave and Captain Cold are just small time crooks at the end of the day, Sarah just wants to deal with her own poo poo, not be a hero and the Hawks are looking to hide from Savage and have been for a long time. Firestorm and Atom though? Just not buying it.

People are remembered for their actions and contributions (positive or negative), not their intellect, money, charisma or even "power level". And we don't know how Firestorm and Ray would have acted moving forward, or what would have happened to them, had Rip not convinced them to go on the journey. I mean Ray already blew himself up once and almost died. Maybe he was going to do it again in a few weeks while working on something else and die for real this time. And maybe Stein was going to die of natural causes in a few years -- he is pretty old after all -- putting an end to Firestorm. The only thing Rip said that in that specific timeline, they wouldn't end up having a big impact on things, which is why he chose them.

I notice Rip name-dropped Per Degaton in his appeal to the Time Masters - Degaton would have been a better villain to introduce a time-travel show than Vandal Savage. I realise they're tying Savage into the Hawks but Degaton would have been a better villain to introduce a time travel show; should've saved the "immortal fixed point in time" bad guy for later and started with the "they chase him through history" villain.

On the whole though, I was far more bothered by the idea that a metahuman like Firestorm, who in the context of this show has to be the second most powerful metahuman on Earth at this time, if not the most powerful could somehow be so worthless a hero that he's barely remembered historically. I think Ray being that unimportant is somewhat stretching things too given not just his powers, but his intellect, money, charisma and drive. I cannot see him just remaining an unknown hero in that setting with all that going for him unless he dies again sometime in the next few weeks without Rip coming to collect him. The rest I can see all remaining unknown and unimportant, because for various reasons all of them have a desire to hide themselves away from the spotlight. Heatwave and Captain Cold are just small time crooks at the end of the day, Sarah just wants to deal with her own poo poo, not be a hero and the Hawks are looking to hide from Savage and have been for a long time. Firestorm and Atom though? Just not buying it.

Yeah, but it's been what, 2.5 years since the particle accelerator blew up? With 150 years to go before it's Rip Hunter's time? That's a heck of a lot more metahumans that could show up from the accelerator or fall through a dimensional portal, or whatever. Firestorm's the big guy on the block today, but there's no reason to think that that sticks.

And hell, we don't know how Gideon figures out who is relevant to the timeline. Might be "Someone else could have done X, also had opportunity, would achieve essentially the same result."

W/r/t the Atom this makes a lot of sense - Ray's already built the suit, and it's well within handwaving distance to say that there are blueprints and notes somewhere of his major inventions that could be found and utilized by someone else.

I just figured that, prior to Rip's intervention, Firestorm would have just quit. Jackson is clearly not digging their arrangement.

Meanwhile, how many brilliant inventors have there been in the history of the world that barely anyone can remember because the things they made weren't paradigm shifts. Ray exists at the same time as Harrison Wells. The experimental physicist turned secret murderer who is responsible for the existence of metahumans. Who is Ray Palmer compared to that?

Meanwhile, how many brilliant inventors have there been in the history of the world that barely anyone can remember because the things they made weren't paradigm shifts.

If anyone wants to hear about these kinds of things, I reccommend How We Got to Now, either the book or the PBS series. Haven't read the book yet, but the series is sorta like Connections but with a focus on a specific kind of technology rather than an unbroken chain of innovation. An episode on light (from early attempts at lightbulbs to neon to fiber-optics), one on cold (why refrigeration is such a big deal), et cetera. It points out some people who are forgotten by history because they had the right idea at the wrong time, or identified the problem but the tools to solve it wouldn't be along for 50 years. Fascinating stuff.

I just figured that, prior to Rip's intervention, Firestorm would have just quit. Jackson is clearly not digging their arrangement.

Meanwhile, how many brilliant inventors have there been in the history of the world that barely anyone can remember because the things they made weren't paradigm shifts. Ray exists at the same time as Harrison Wells. The experimental physicist turned secret murderer who is responsible for the existence of metahumans. Who is Ray Palmer compared to that?

He also seems to be pretty lovely at super-heroing. He's made progress since his debut but he still screwed up the mission he was on for Ollie against Dahrk in the Legends pilot with the computer thing.

Nah, he left to go become a big movie star. I think he's in San Andreas for like 30 seconds as The Rock's partner.

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He also seems to be pretty lovely at super-heroing. He's made progress since his debut but he still screwed up the mission he was on for Ollie against Dahrk in the Legends pilot with the computer thing.

To be fair, that was a trap they set for him. God knows Oliver trips into those every 5 minutes. What's kind of telling is no one seemed to give a poo poo after some dude suddenly kidnapped Ray and they both vanished. When Ray comes back to ask Oliver for advice there isn't even an "oh wow good thing you're okay."

Those seem to be the only traits I can think of that Hawkman should have to be fair. It's not like we're dealing with a good character here anyway. Hawkgirl has always been the more interesting one, mostly on the back of the Justice League cartoon.

Which they've already thrown out the window by ditching the space element. The space-cop/undercover agent torn between her nation and her heart was the most interesting part of her cartoon version. It's the whole "you can't do one without the other" thing that led to Supergirl's Cousin as well. Like the idea of having Hawkgirl or Supergirl be standalone concepts is inconceivable to these producers.

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.

Was there an explanation for why Rip Van Winkle has Eobard Thawne's computer?

People are remembered for their actions and contributions (positive or negative), not their intellect, money, charisma or even "power level". And we don't know how Firestorm and Ray would have acted moving forward, or what would have happened to them, had Rip not convinced them to go on the journey.

Adding to this point: Rip is a liar. Maybe none of these characters achieve anything significant, or maybe they end up doing *very* significant things that Rip has decided are bad or counterproductive. He's already decided to intentionally change time, so he might as well go for bust.

Maybe Ray creates more and more world-changing technology, but it somehow helps facilitate Vandal's rise to power. Maybe Firestorm has an illustrious superhero career, but ends up detonating and taking the city of Pittsburgh with them. The only person who said they do nothing is the same one who said they were Legends.

What's kind of telling is no one seemed to give a poo poo after some dude suddenly kidnapped Ray and they both vanished. When Ray comes back to ask Oliver for advice there isn't even an "oh wow good thing you're okay."

Oliver once left Roy passed out electrocuted in a puddle due to sloppy editing. I assumed this was more of the same.

Adding to this point: Rip is a liar. Maybe none of these characters achieve anything significant, or maybe they end up doing *very* significant things that Rip has decided are bad or counterproductive.

Or maybe he's telling the truth, technically, but he's neglecting to mention that none of them have an impact on the future because he snatched them out of the timeline.

It's a big logical flaw in a lot of time travel stories. If Doc Brown takes Marty out of 1985 and visits 2015, then that should be a 2015 where Marty just disappeared without a trace one day 30 years ago.

So if Rip's time travel does take that into account, then none of these people exist in the future at all. Until the mission is over and they're put back in place. So he's not technically wrong, just super misleading.

You know what this show reminds me of, back when SyFy was Sci-fi Channel, this feels like one of their original shows. There's something about the sets, the effects, the way dialog is written and the acting over all reminds me of Stargate or something like that.

I'm not saying that's bad, its just feels odd. I agree with the complaints though about the guy playing Carter. He just gives off this obsessive, possessive stalker vibe and the dialog does not help. Killing him off would go a long way to improve the show.

My only other real issue is this version of Vandal Savage doesn't really feel like a threat.