"Le Gray's seascapes, photographed on the beaches of Normandy and along France's Mediterranean coast, created an international sensation when they were first exhibited in London and Paris. At a time when camera exposures often lasted for several seconds, viewers were amazed by Le Gray's ability to freeze the motion of breaking waves, and the perfectly backlit clouds drifting above reinforced the feeling of instantaneity. That the clouds and waves were printed from two separate negatives remained the artist's secret during his lifetime. Although Le Gray never publicly acknowledged his method, he did leave some inadvertent clues in the pictures themselves: the same spectacular stormy sky looms above the horizon in at least three different seascapes, providing irrefutable evidence of Le Gray's canny manipulation."

Perhaps a good time to remember that the primary meaning of manipulate is "to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner", "to manage or utilize skillfully".

In this thread? Has anyone addressed the question in this thread? What went on in other discussions is irrelevant. But OK, so one person knows who Le Gray is and about his methods. But you still haven't answered the question of whether what he did was 'cheating'. Or perhaps the bit below is supposed to address that?

Perhaps a good time to remember that the primary meaning of manipulate is "to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner", "to manage or utilize skillfully".

Yes, I've also made my thoughts on these types of dictionary and wiktionary definitions known. But to restate: Stow the dictionary.

There are too many pages on this topic to warrant reading them all, but consider what people have done with photography to try and prove the existence of UFOs. In many cases the photos are original but what they're of has been set up to look like something that it is not.

I've been following this discussion with interest and a sort of growing horror. It has become a sort of obsessive vortex that drags me back. Is it like doing drugs? I wouldn't know. I see that it has now caused LL to barf twice. With apologies to Chris S I just want to find out if restarting it once more causes the whole internet to collapse.

Well, about a year ago a very similar debate was had in response to an article posted by Alain Briot and his philosophy toward photography and art.

In "The Ethics of Photo Manipulation" Charles Johnson explicitly referred to Alain Briot’s article, “Ansel Adams Moves” and “Alain Briot Moves” so the debate is similar.

It's a little surprising that none of us took-up Alain Briot’s language to say that obviously “Ansel Adams Moves” are legitimate in an “Ansel Adams Photography Game” and “Alain Briot Moves” are legitimate in an “Alain Briot Photography Game” and the arguing is mostly about primacy -- is there just one legitmate “Photography Game” or are there many?

Quote from: John Camp -- May 29, 2013, 06:54:56 PM

The ethical problem occurs when a photograph is substantively altered, but the person doing the manipulation attempts to retain its character as a photograph, and then either maintains that it is am image taken directly from a camera, or allows the viewer to believe that. (Belief is always the default, because...

Conflating "its character as a photograph" with "taken directly from a camera" simply assumes the primacy of a particular “Photography Game”.

The salient characteristic of a photograph is that it "looks so real" like a mirror image; and like a mirror image that also means selective and distorted.

Quote from: Tony Jay -- May 31, 2013, 04:57:27 AM

However, Alain, explicitly and obviously, through his artists statement, informs viewers and buyers that his images may well be purely the result of his imagination and artistic ability. ... I confess to respecting the views advanced without really comprehending why an open disclosure of one's artistic philosophy could not be given to viewers and buyers as the case may be.

Open disclosure for the “Alain Briot Photography Game” but not for the “Ansel Adams Photography Game”?

I either like them or I don't. I do not ask, directly, if they are the ACTUAL scene. If they are "overcooked", I probably will not like them....not because of the overprocessing, but because I PERSONALLY do not like that look...usually.