Correct protein intake?

Hi folks..

I wonder if I can tap into your wisdom and experience? I have been training well for a good few months now and and feeling nicely toned and a lot stronger.
I want to take things to the next level and gain some decent mass. I bought a nice fat tub of pure protein powder and wonder how much protein I actually
need to consume a day to put on some good muscle gains. I have tried the various calculators around but they give me wildly varied results.

I am semi vegetarian and never eat any red meat and chicken and fish are a rare treat. My current protein intake come from whole milk, eggs, cheese beans, legumes, nuts etc. but I'm
not sure I'm getting enough protein as I am a hard gainer with a metabolism like a turbo charged furnace.

I now train each muscle group 3 times a week with a kind of HST multi 6 day split routine which works well for me. I weight 72.6 kilos.

"I am semi vegetarian and never eat any red meat and chicken and fish are a rare treat..."
While I recognize this is a bit off the call of the question, I wonder whether you've considered creatine? Folks who don't eat a lot of red meat sometimes respond very nicely to creatine supplementation.

"...as I am a hard gainer with a metabolism like a turbo charged furnace."
Most folks who consider themselves hard gainers are simply under-eating. Just food for thought.

Oh I forgot to mention.. how many calories a day should I be aiming for too to mass up? Does it also matter when I take these protein drinks? First thing in the morning? Last thing at night?
Before or after workouts?

I wonder if I can tap into your wisdom and experience? I have been training well for a good few months now and and feeling nicely toned and a lot stronger.
I want to take things to the next level and gain some decent mass. I bought a nice fat tub of pure protein powder and wonder how much protein I actually
need to consume a day to put on some good muscle gains. I have tried the various calculators around but they give me wildly varied results.

I am semi vegetarian and never eat any red meat and chicken and fish are a rare treat. My current protein intake come from whole milk, eggs, cheese beans, legumes, nuts etc. but I'm
not sure I'm getting enough protein as I am a hard gainer with a metabolism like a turbo charged furnace.

I now train each muscle group 3 times a week with a kind of HST multi 6 day split routine which works well for me. I weight 72.6 kilos.

There is no such thing as " growing solid muscle fast;" you need to get that thought out of your head now. In a perfect world, where a brand-new trainee is doing everything correctly, all the time, maximum MPS is about two pounds per month for a natty trainee. For those with more experience, muscle gain will be proportionately less.

Science indicates that there is no advantage to consuming more than .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight, but most experienced bodybuilders will still round-up that number, and advise you to eat a gram of high-quality protein per pound of body weight. That small extra margin will insure sufficiency.

ETA:

While being a vegetarian is certainly your choice, it makes a fairly difficult task for the body to perform (building muscle tissue) just that much more difficult. Lack of red meat, in particular, can be a problem unless you're very careful to be getting all your required B vitamins and fats (along with all the other boatload of micros that red meat easily provides) from other sources.

There is no such thing as " growing solid muscle fast;" you need to get that thought out of your head now. In a perfect world, where a brand-new trainee is doing everything correctly, all the time, maximum MPS is about two pounds per month for a natty trainee. For those with more experience, muscle gain will be proportionately less.

Science indicates that there is no advantage to consuming more than .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight, but most experienced bodybuilders will still round-up that number, and advise you to eat a gram of high-quality protein per pound of body weight. That small extra margin will insure sufficiency.

ETA:

While being a vegetarian is certainly your choice, it makes a fairly difficult task for the body to perform (building muscle tissue) just that much more difficult. Lack of red meat, in particular, can be a problem unless you're very careful to be getting all your required B vitamins and fats (along with all the other boatload of micros that red meat easily provides) from other sources.

Agree with this 100%. Red meat is king. I can't imagine trying to gain without red meat or chicken. Maybe it can be done, but I'd find this unimaginably hard. I'm eating 2700+ cals/day and 180g+ of protein and gains are still a struggle. It almost seems impossible if you're not eating a ton of meat OP.

gonna be hard to get your complete proteins without meat but I guess it can be done. I would say asking protein amounts is like asking which program is the best you will get 500 different answers because every study comes out with a different result. I will say when I calculate my calories per day i tend to do 30% fats first and foremost. Anything under that i tend to loose strength. 40% + protein and 30% or less carbs. if i cut carbs I add protein and or fat.

Logs: none currently

previous sponsored logs and reviews can be seen here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=158128363

That's really not true guys that you need red meat at all to build muscle. That misconception is a carry over from the 70's. Just Google 'Vegan Bodybuilding' and you will see.

Look up FRANK MEDRANO.

Look up vegan strongman Patrik Baboumian.. he's a MONSTER.

"Strongman Patrik Baboumian who did a ten metre walk carrying more than half a tonne on his shoulders, more than anyone has ever done before. After smashing the world record the Strongman let out a roar of ‘Vegan Power’, and later added that ‘the point is to inspire people and break stereotypes that tough guys need to eat a lot of meat’"

I personally stopped eating red meat about 8 months ago.. and I gave gained half a stone just on a very simple semi vegetarian diet and no supplements what so ever.

That's really not true guys that you need red meat at all to build muscle. That misconception is a carry over from the 70's. Just Google 'Vegan Bodybuilding' and you will see.

Look up FRANK MEDRANO.

Look up vegan strongman Patrik Baboumian.. he's a MONSTER.

"Strongman Patrik Baboumian who did a ten metre walk carrying more than half a tonne on his shoulders, more than anyone has ever done before. After smashing the world record the Strongman let out a roar of ‘Vegan Power’, and later added that ‘the point is to inspire people and break stereotypes that tough guys need to eat a lot of meat’"

I personally stopped eating red meat about 8 months ago.. and I gave gained half a stone just on a semi vegetarian diet and no supplements what so ever.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it has to be extremely difficult to get the protein needed to do that on a vegan diet. I'll have to look this guy up and see what his diet looked like.

That's really not true guys that you need red meat at all to build muscle. That misconception is a carry over from the 70's. Just Google 'Vegan Bodybuilding' and you will see.

Where did I, or anyone else ITT, state that red meat is "needed" to build muscle?

Look up FRANK MEDRANO.

Look up vegan strongman Patrik Baboumian.. he's a MONSTER.

Those two guys look pretty good!

Would you like me to start listing the thousands of bodybuilders, powerlifters, Olympic lifters, and Strongman competitors, currently holding thousands of World records and titles, and who eat meat and other tissue proteins in large quantities on a regular basis?

I personally stopped eating red meat about 8 months ago.. and I gave gained half a stone just on a very simple semi vegetarian diet and no supplements what so ever.

Congratulations.

Not sure why you're being so defensive about your nutrition practices unless you're attempting to convince others here that your way is somehow superior.

You started the thread, asking for advice, and I, and others, offered some. If you want to read into what I posted something other than what I wrote, be my guest.

No, it will convert the excess to fat. That's what happens to any excess calories, be they from protein, carbohydrate, or fat.

If you have excess protein it will NOT be converted to fat unless you have excess calories...and you will gain some fat on a bulk because by definition bulking entails having a caloric excess. The key is keeping it manageable. Aim for gaining maybe half a pound per week and if you are lifting hard you should not gain too much fat.

I have eaten meat all my life and yes I am and have always been a hard gainer... but only the last 8 months I decided to do an experiment and cut out all meat from my diet. Initially my weight dropped... but once I got my nutrition sorted things changed. As I said I have put on half a stone in less than 8 months with milk, eggs, cheese, legumes, beans and nuts as my only source of protein and so supplements what so ever.

I just proved to myself that red meat.. or any meat for that matter is not required to build muscle. Only now have I just started to use a protein powder and amino acid supplement encase I maybe deficient somewhere. But still no meat.

Hey IronWill keep your pants on mate! Why you trying to provoke arguments? I read a comment here saying that 'meat is king' and that without mean any real gains are real hard to come by.

I was simply stating that is not true. Which it is not. Please go look for a fight elsewhere as I'm not the one. I appreciate all the good info I have been given by the members here. Except perhaps yours. Maybe you have just had a bad day.. there's one in every gym.

Yes I'm sure you could show me a million big guys that eat meat. Yes and for 50 years the world thought smoking made you more masculine. What's your point?

I thank you all for your input.. but before IronWill turns this thread into a Brawl I bow out gracefully.

I have eaten meat all my life and yes I am and have always been a hard gainer... but only the last 8 months I decided to do an experiment and cut out all meat from my diet. Initially my weight dropped... but once I got my nutrition sorted things changed. As I said I have put on half a stone in less than 8 months with milk, eggs, cheese, legumes, beans and nuts as my only source of protein and so supplements what so ever.

I just proved to myself that red meat.. or any meat for that matter is not required to build muscle. Only now have I just started to use a protein powder and amino acid supplement encase I maybe deficient somewhere. But still no meat.

Hey IronWill keep your pants on mate! Why you trying to provoke arguments? I read a comment here saying that 'meat is king' and that without mean any real gains are real hard to come by.

I was simply stating that is not true. Which it is not. Please go look for a fight elsewhere as I'm not the one. I appreciate all the good info I have been given by the members here. Except perhaps yours. Maybe you have just had a bad day.. there's one in every gym.

Yes I'm sure you could show me a million big guys that eat meat. And I could show you 20 million smokers that are rich. What's your point?

Cheers and goodnight all.

Sounds like all those phytoestrogens are turning you into a little twat. Try having a steak and see if your balls don't re-drop.

"I'm a street walking cheetah with a heart full of napalm." -Iggy and The Stooges

You've mentioned numerous times that you're a hardgainer and you want to take it to the next level and build up decent mass. You've been a meat eater all your life and the first thing you do for the goal you've listed is cut meat out of your diet.

I don't care what anyone says, meat is on the top of my list when it comes to my main source of protein.

For the goal you've listed it makes no sense to pull out meat. Nothing like making the battle even more difficult and shooting yourself in the foot...

I have eaten meat all my life and yes I am and have always been a hard gainer... but only the last 8 months I decided to do an experiment and cut out all meat from my diet. Initially my weight dropped... but once I got my nutrition sorted things changed. As I said I have put on half a stone in less than 8 months with milk, eggs, cheese, legumes, beans and nuts as my only source of protein and so supplements what so ever.

I just proved to myself that red meat.. or any meat for that matter is not required to build muscle. Only now have I just started to use a protein powder and amino acid supplement encase I maybe deficient somewhere. But still no meat.

Hey IronWill keep your pants on mate! Why you trying to provoke arguments? I read a comment here saying that 'meat is king' and that without mean any real gains are real hard to come by.

I was simply stating that is not true. Which it is not. Please go look for a fight elsewhere as I'm not the one. I appreciate all the good info I have been given by the members here. Except perhaps yours. Maybe you have just had a bad day.. there's one in every gym.

Yes I'm sure you could show me a million big guys that eat meat. Yes and for 50 years the world thought smoking made you more masculine. What's your point?

Cheers and goodnight all.

And I stand by my meat is king mantra. Sure, there may be other ways to pack on muscle, but meat is going to be the most efficient, imo. Plus, where do eggs, milk and cheese come from? They originate from an animal that has meat. lol I'm glad you're making progress the semi-vegetarian way, but you're still consuming a lot of food that have meat roots. In any case, good luck with your goals. Just curious, how much do you weigh and how tall are you? I'm sure the folks around here would love to see what your semi-vegetarian physique looks like, so why don't you post a pic or 2?

There is no such thing as " growing solid muscle fast;" you need to get that thought out of your head now. In a perfect world, where a brand-new trainee is doing everything correctly, all the time, maximum MPS is about two pounds per month for a natty trainee. For those with more experience, muscle gain will be proportionately less.

Science indicates that there is no advantage to consuming more than .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight, but most experienced bodybuilders will still round-up that number, and advise you to eat a gram of high-quality protein per pound of body weight. That small extra margin will insure sufficiency.

ETA:

While being a vegetarian is certainly your choice, it makes a fairly difficult task for the body to perform (building muscle tissue) just that much more difficult. Lack of red meat, in particular, can be a problem unless you're very careful to be getting all your required B vitamins and fats (along with all the other boatload of micros that red meat easily provides) from other sources.

Good advice about. You may look into adding creatine monohydrate to your diet if you have not added it.

How can you visualize training a muscle if you don't know its structure?

And I stand by my meat is king mantra. Sure, there may be other ways to pack on muscle, but meat is going to be the most efficient, imo. Plus, where do eggs, milk and cheese come from? They originate from an animal that has meat. lol I'm glad you're making progress the semi-vegetarian way, but you're still consuming a lot of food that have meat roots. In any case, good luck with your goals. Just curious, how much do you weigh and how tall are you? I'm sure the folks around here would love to see what your semi-vegetarian physique looks like, so why don't you post a pic or 2?

If he eats sufficient eggs and dairy products his source of amino acids should be sufficient in combination equivalent to meat. It's the insufficient quantities of other nutrients that may be an issue such as creatine and the COQ10 not produced by the body. Personally I rarely eat red meat, only occasionally when I go out to dinner or barbecue. I prefer poultry and fish as my meat source.

How can you visualize training a muscle if you don't know its structure?

If he eats sufficient eggs and dairy products his source of amino acids should be sufficient in combination equivalent to meat. It's the insufficient quantities of other nutrients that may be an issue such as creatine and the COQ10 not produced by the body. Personally I rarely eat red meat, only occasionally when I go out to dinner or barbecue. I prefer poultry and fish as my meat source.

I understand that completely. However, OP is clearly not vegan or a vegetarian and it would be easiest to just eat a balanced diet that included meat. He's clearly consuming animal products, so I really don't understand why he's avoiding meat. After all, he's admitted to being a "hard gainer" and "trying to gain mass," but to each his own. It just seems nonsensical, but maybe that's just me. Unless there are some underlying health issues, I just don't get it. But hey, it's OP's life and he can do as he pleases. I'd really like to see some progress pics tho.

I understand that completely. However, OP is clearly not vegan or a vegetarian and it would be easiest to just eat a balanced diet that included meat. He's clearly consuming animal products, so I really don't understand why he's avoiding meat. After all, he's admitted to being a "hard gainer" and "trying to gain mass," but to each his own. It just seems nonsensical, but maybe that's just me. Unless there are some underlying health issues, I just don't get it. But hey, it's OP's life and he can do as he pleases. I'd really like to see some progress pics tho.

That's his personal choice. He may be an animals rights advocate. He is adding complexity to his source of protein for muscle growth. I

How can you visualize training a muscle if you don't know its structure?

Well it must have happened overnight, because he said he's been eating meat his whole life.

Personal choice sure, but with all the complaining about being a hard gainer and this new goal of adding solid muscle fast (his words not mine,) cutting meat out of your diet seems silly...especially when you've been eating it all along.

That's his personal choice. He may be an animals rights advocate. He is adding complexity to his source of protein for muscle growth. I

Agreed, it's his choice. One might argue that he's reducing the complexity of his protein sources by excluding meat. But what do I know... I'm a newb when it comes to nutrition and you clearly know your stuff. I hope to look half as good as you when I'm your age Jerry.

Originally Posted by kimm4

Well it must have happened overnight, because he said he's been eating meat his whole life.

Personal choice sure, but with all the complaining about being a hard gainer and this new goal of adding solid muscle fast (his words not mine,) cutting meat out of your diet seems silly...especially when you've been eating it all along.

Anyhoo...more steak for me.

Kim kicking the knowledge... I'd rep if I could, but it looks like I've been showing you a bit too much love lately.

I just proved to myself that red meat.. or any meat for that matter is not required to build muscle.

How did you prove that? You said you gained weight....I can put on 6#'s practically overnight by just eating something that will make me hold a bunch of water. Excess calories make you gain weight, whether its muscle or not is another story. I'd be careful correlating the two directly.

As for protein consumption, LOL at the .8 g of protein/per pound of bodyweight. Funny chit.

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