Joe is OK. He knows his stuff but may be too much focused on portability and purity.

We are experts in Microsoft SQL Server and he is not.Not that long ago when I wrote my presentation about Relational Division I wrote a query that is about 500 times faster (5+ hours down to 30 sek). Same result, just less resources and time.

He doesn't know his stuff as much as he acts like he does. Anyone who speaks in platitudes and absolutes as he does is (1) often wrong and (2) extremely annoying.

I will agree he understands relational theory.

I don't believe that he has much expertise in real world implementation.

Further, portability is an unattainable goal. Remember when Java was going to solve the world's probelms by being able to run on any platform? That never exactly materialized. The second that business developers start writing code, it instantly becomes proprietary. If I have 100 instances of SQL Server, I'm not terribly interested whether or not my code runs on DB2. I am interested in making sure it runs as efficiently as possible on SQL Server.

That is the situation most IT professionals are in.

I once wrote a tool that mimicked query analyzer that I ran against DB2 and Oracle. It was a little crude, but in the shop I worked in, we had all 3 and I was tired of the tools that I had for DB2. I still had to actually write DB2 compliant T-SQL statements for them to run against it.

In any event, I've never met Joe, but have a mutual friend that I respect very much who tells me Joe's not as bad as he comes off here. I guess I'll reserve final judgement until I meet him, but as of now, I'm terribly offended by the way he treats junior members here.

Joe might be the greatest thing since Ghandi in real life for all I care...but online he's a complete ass and if this was my site I'd ban him in a heartbeat. He brings NOTHING but bad spirit and spam to the forums and personally I could live very well without both. Being the author of some books and speaking publicly about the subject we love the most does not give him some sort of universal forgiveness for treating people like he does.

Joe might be the greatest thing since Ghandi in real life for all I care...but online he's a complete ass and if this was my site I'd ban him in a heartbeat. He brings NOTHING but bad spirit and spam to the forums and personally I could live very well without both. Being the author of some books and speaking publicly about the subject we love the most does not give him some sort of universal forgiveness for treating people like he does.

I agree. I'm an admin on SQL Mag forums. It used to be as popular as this site. We had one particular member who constantly badgered members (and was almost always wrong in his posts). I'm convinced that single user chased dozens, if not hundreds, of members away. The other admins and I wanted to ban the guy, but the editors didn't want us to. That user is banned from this site I believe. Luckily Joe doesn't post as much as this guy did lol

quote:Originally posted by russellIn any event, I've never met Joe, but have a mutual friend that I respect very much who tells me Joe's not as bad as he comes off here.

That's the point, he's very likable in person, and he's an excellent public speaker.

He is. I've met him at PASS Summit and he's soft-spoken and a complete gentleman.

His online persona is an act, it's how he wants to come across online. That I think just makes it worse. It's not that he's arrogant and doesn't realise how he's coming across. Rather he's coming across exactly as he intends.

I would conjecture that Celko's online persona is the real thing; that the allegedly polite and soft-spoken character is an act. His pretense in real life of being a nice person is similar to that of the robber who on occasion pretends or acts like an honest person.

If you are an honest person you never rob someone, whether online or offline. If you are a decent human being, you don't talk down to or insult others whether online or offline.

I don't post much on this forum, but I read it regularly; a lot of what I learned about SQL can be attributed to the expertise and kindness of the people on this forum. So I, along with countless others who I am sure find this forum to be of immense value, would like to see it thrive and be a place where anyone can ask questions. I don't want to see it be a place where self-professed experts with a holier-than-thou attitude intimidate novices.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is asking a question for the very first time on this forum. Imagine that s/he has limited English language skills.

Sean: I must say that your response in the thread you linked (http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=161897) was great :) And even though I've never met him in person myself, I find it much easier to believe that his politeness and gentleman-like conduct in real life is an act and that his true nature is revealed online. A decent person would never mock a newbie or anyone else for asking questions... I have more or less decided that whenever I see Celko giving shit to someone I'll give him shit back...unless graz comes up with a hellban script that works

He doesn't know his stuff as much as he acts like he does. Anyone who speaks in platitudes and absolutes as he does is (1) often wrong and (2) extremely annoying.

I will agree he understands relational theory.

I don't believe that he has much expertise in real world implementation.

Further, portability is an unattainable goal. Remember when Java was going to solve the world's probelms by being able to run on any platform? That never exactly materialized. The second that business developers start writing code, it instantly becomes proprietary. If I have 100 instances of SQL Server, I'm not terribly interested whether or not my code runs on DB2. I am interested in making sure it runs as efficiently as possible on SQL Server.

That is the situation most IT professionals are in.

I once wrote a tool that mimicked query analyzer that I ran against DB2 and Oracle. It was a little crude, but in the shop I worked in, we had all 3 and I was tired of the tools that I had for DB2. I still had to actually write DB2 compliant T-SQL statements for them to run against it.

In any event, I've never met Joe, but have a mutual friend that I respect very much who tells me Joe's not as bad as he comes off here. I guess I'll reserve final judgement until I meet him, but as of now, I'm terribly offended by the way he treats junior members here.

He does have experience in implementations but not sql server (or at least not sql server specific).

He should add "Listen to what I say not the way I say it" to his signature.

Think this idea of labels complying with standards is a bit of a fantasy though.

==========================================Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.SSIS can be used in a similar way.Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.

Nope - lots more, just means I'm not getting paid for it.Mind you I'm doing more than what is considered a full time university course so theoretically I won't have time.I seem to find more time to study when I'm working full time as well though.

==========================================Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.SSIS can be used in a similar way.Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.