Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

There are many players who have foundations and do charitable work. There are many players who do good things with their money and fame.

It seems to me that Kurt Warner gets a heck of a lot more publicity for acts of this type than other players. I attribute this to his deliberate drawing of attention to himself.

Does that make him a bad person? Of course not.

Does that make him T.O. or Drew Rosenhaus? Of course not.

But just because his primary motive is positive does not mean that I have no right to question his ulterior motives.

Kurt can be a bit self-righteous for my taste. On his foundation website, he states that his success in 1999 had little to do with football, but rather was the product of his faith. So does that mean Steve McNair's faith was lacking? He has a charitable foundation too.

And how do you explain Tom Brady (who broke up with his pregnant girlfriend to shack up with his other pregnant girlfriend) beating Kurt in 2001 and winning two more Super Bowls? Was this some elaborate plan to teach Kurt humility? Or maybe, just maybe, faith has nothing to do with the outcome of football games.

In the end, Kurt remains a good man. But he's no Saint, and I don't need to worship him as one.

Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

What are you talking about? Warner told the reporter. That is not my inference, that's a fact. He was interviewed, and he told her about it. She quotes him. Read the article.

You have no idea who brought it up, how it came up, what the context was. ZERO idea. None. THAT is fact.

Seriously, Chris... this is why I don't like discussing things with you. Its one thing to have differing opinions. That's fine. But you refuse to acknowledge simple facts, and that makes the discussion pointless.

You haven't presented fact. You have presented your opinion (hateful as it is) of Kurt Warner.

Then you compared our evaluation of your behavior to YOUR evaluation of HIS behavior.

Our evaluation is based on direct observation of you. Your evaluation, if based on fact, is based on fact which only could lead to the conclusion you have drawn if you inferred. Because you inferred, instead of observed, your evaluation is not equal to ours.

Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

Originally Posted by AvengerRam

Kurt can be a bit self-righteous for my taste. On his foundation website, he states that his success in 1999 had little to do with football, but rather was the product of his faith. So does that mean Steve McNair's faith was lacking? He has a charitable foundation too.

You don't understand what he's saying because you don't understand his faith. It has nothing to do with anyone else.

Kurt Warner is not saying that, because he had success, it proves he had faith.

He is saying that his success was only brought about, for him, because he honored his faith.

In other words, Kurt Warner believes, if I understand what he's shared correctly, that he cannot attribute his success to himself.

He doesn't say anything about anyone else's faith, nor does he say that his troubles have come from any LACK of faith.

If I understand him correctly, Kurt Warner would probably quote Paul, who studied under Gamaliel, was a member of the sanhedrin and an expert in Jewish Law, when Paul wrote this to the church that was in Rome:

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. "(of course, Paul probably thought it in either Greek or Hebrew, but it was certainly written down in the Greek, translated into Latin, and into English.)

It's a recognition of something higher, and it's a submission to the will of a greater being. It has NOTHING to do with pointing fingers at anyone else.

People who infer these things into what Warner said are missing the point and are putting an unfair burden on him.

Where it matters in the greater scheme of things is that they ALSO infer these sorts of things, which were never said, or never meant, to anyone who says them.

Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

Football games are zero-sum (well, at least playoff games, which can't end in a tie, are). For therr to be a winner, there also has to be a loser. Kurt claims he was victorious because of his faith. The implication is that his faith was greater than those who lost.

I don't believe that the world works that way, and none of your quotes (which might have actually been thought in Aramaic), suggest that it does.

If a sports figure wants to thank a higher power, that's fine. Thank him (or her) for the opportunity to compete at the highest level. Don't attribute victory to your quality as a believer.

Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

I've seen pictures of you Nick, and its pretty clear that at least 2 of you could fit into 1 Oprah jersey.

I only bought the big size because I thought the kids nowadays were wearing them baggy...

Originally Posted by atcchris

It is just SHAMEFUL that all this energy is spent in hating Kurt Warner and attempting to denigrate him.

The grandstanding is a bit much. I think it's rather off the mark to suggest that energy is being spent in hating Warner. I believe Av has already said a few times in this thread that he thinks Warner is a good man. Characterizing a disagreement on Warner's handling of this matter as Av hating Warner seems rather extreme to me.

Originally Posted by moklerman

You also have no basis for your belief.

Which, interestingly enough, is kind of the same thing I was thinking when you talked about Bulger's attitude and the possibility that he might be purposely tanking games to hurt Linehan.

Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

Which, interestingly enough, is kind of the same thing I was thinking when you talked about Bulger's attitude and the possibility that he might be purposely tanking games to hurt Linehan.

When someone close to Warner comes out on a radio show and says that Warner has told them that all of his charitable work has been part of a publicity campaign, I'll consider the possibility that it's true.

I haven't seen the "IF Warner's acts of charity and generosity are publicity driven, THEN my feelings would be..." from AV.

Is it alright if we talk about Bulger in the Bulger thread, though? I would hate for this thread to "accidentally" get diverted.

Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

Of course, RnD is correct. I'm not going to sway Mok or Chris, and vice versa. So... what is the point of all this?

Well, it is the bye week.

P.S. Kurt Warner just called Mike & Mike on ESPN Radio to tell them that he slowed his car down this morning to avoid hitting a squirrel.

The point *I* take away is that you couldn't stand there to be a thread on here which presented Kurt Warner, who quarterbacked the Rams to their only Super Bowl victory, in a positive light, without commenting on it and trying to take him down a peg.

Really no good reason to be so negative or rain on someone like that. At least none that you've shared.. we're left to INFER some sort of motivation for it.

Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

Originally Posted by moklerman

I'll ask one of them again. Do you feel that the Warner's have been doing this since 2000--8 years--without anyone knowing about and now "leak" it for media attention?

Actually, I've answered the question several times. You just have not been paying attention. I stated, quite clearly, that I don't think Kurt Warner's sole purpose in buying dinner for other people is to gain publicity.

However, when he recently discussed it with a reporter, knowing that it would be the subject of a national article, he was trying to gain publicity. I believe, based upon my observation over the years, the Kurt often goes out of his way to publicize his good deeds.

Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

Originally Posted by atcchris

The point *I* take away is that you couldn't stand there to be a thread on here which presented Kurt Warner, who quarterbacked the Rams to their only Super Bowl victory, in a positive light, without commenting on it and trying to take him down a peg.

Really no good reason to be so negative or rain on someone like that. At least none that you've shared.. we're left to INFER some sort of motivation for it.

Why not just pass it on by instead of acting as you've done?

Your characterization of my posts is not correct, but to the extent that I have posted criticism of Warner, there is a simple reason: I think that blind hero worship is a dangerous thing, and would prefer that sports personalities be viewed as human being with both positive and negative characteristics. In my many years as a sports fan, I cannot recall an athlete who has been portrayed by fans in as unrealistic a manner as Warner. There is a segment of Rams fans (or, in some cases, Warner fans who care little about the Rams) who think that he can do no wrong. He can and he does.

Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

Originally Posted by AvengerRam

Your characterization of my posts is not correct, but to the extent that I have posted criticism of Warner, there is a simple reason: I think that blind hero worship is a dangerous thing, and would prefer that sports personalities be viewed as human being with both positive and negative characteristics. In my many years as a sports fan, I cannot recall an athlete who has been portrayed by fans in as unrealistic a manner as Warner. There is a segment of Rams fans (or, in some cases, Warner fans who care little about the Rams) who think that he can do no wrong. He can and he does.

Congratulations. [sarcasm]That is such a worthy cause.[/sarcasm]

So, if I understand it correctly, you're not really attacking Warner, you're attacking those of us who appreciate what he has done. It's kind of fuzzy whether or not you mind us appreciating him as the only quarterback to bring us a Super Bowl victory.. but for sure, if we think he's a good guy (apparently that's enough for you to think we deify the guy) then we need to "see the light".

You claim you don't think HE thinks himself a "saint" (but you're disturbed, somehow, by either his faith, or the way he lives out his faith, or by the way he talks about his faith on his website), in any event you're just trying to "help" us to self-enlightenment, NOT tear someone down in order to make yourself or others look better, in the process. Do I have that right?

Re: K Warner - no matter what great guy

Originally Posted by atcchris

Congratulations. [sarcasm]That is such a worthy cause.[/sarcasm]

So, if I understand it correctly, you're not really attacking Warner, you're attacking those of us who appreciate what he has done. It's kind of fuzzy whether or not you mind us appreciating him as the only quarterback to bring us a Super Bowl victory.. but for sure, if we think he's a good guy (apparently that's enough for you to think we deify the guy) then we need to "see the light".

You claim you don't think HE thinks himself a "saint" (but you're disturbed, somehow, by either his faith, or the way he lives out his faith, or by the way he talks about his faith on his website), in any event you're just trying to "help" us to self-enlightenment, NOT tear someone down in order to make yourself or others look better, in the process. Do I have that right?

Offhand, I would say it seems a bit like proselytizing, wouldn't you?

Rather than wasting my time going point by point, let me just say that pretty much everything you wrote in that post is wrong. Geez... you couldn't be putting more words in my mouth unless you were force feeding me Alpha-bits.

You know what... these boards have a nice search feature. Why not go back and look at what I have said over the years about Kurt. You'll find plenty of posts I have made in which I praised him. You'll find that, when Kurt made a trip to Indonesia to assit in the relief effort following the tsunamis, I was the one who posted the article to praise Kurt for his efforts.

In this case, all I see is a puff-piece.

If you are incapable of respecting my opinion, and can only respond with mischaracterizations and straw man arguments, that your problem, not mine.