Hello everyone. Before I get into the question I have, I'd like to explain a bit about how I ended up here, if I may.

I'm not a Satanist. Well, not to my way or thinking, or yours, anyhow. I've looked into it, and there are some things that concern and confuse me, but this wouldn't be the right place to delve into them, because the forums comment about focusing on LeVay Satanism, not Spiritual Satanism. Just so you know where I stand on that issue, in case that means you want to quit reading.

Anyway, many years ago, I managed to leave Christianity. It was incredibly difficult, I experienced what can only be considered abject terror. For years I sought a personal spiritual relationship with whatever Intelligence underlies all things. I do believe there is one, I call it God, so when I use that label, you'll understand here on out to what I refer.

In recent months, I have been confronted by, and confronting Christians who have been trying to force me to accept their beliefs with threats and manipulations... along with other people, many of whom are in a vulnerable position (which I am not).

I apologize if I'm not making sense, I'm getting there, I swear.

So a couple of days ago, I told them that if they felt the need to pray for me (which I have a real anger towards-- it's an attempt to tell you that they will ask their god who is reprehensible to me, to over-write my will with theirs)... I would find a Satanic forum and ask those who believe in Satan to pray for them. I mean, it seems only fair that if they are going to force prayers to someone I find reprehensible onto me, then I should courteously do the same. This attempt to get them to see how offensive their "I will pray to you to a caricaturization of an evil god" was fell upon empty minds. To be expected, of course, but still.

Now, I didn't do it, and wouldn't do it. Less because of them, and more because it would be discourteous to do so (and because I was just trying to make a point).

But this got me to thinking. I have read the Exposing Christianity website. Since then, I have begun to realize more and more about the subversive and seductive nature of Christianity, and why so many people fall prey to it.

But... and now we are getting to the point of my post... I am interested to know if there's a way to find out more about the possible intents and origins of the Bible and what the real agenda is.

Of course, asking Christians isn't going to help. They can't imagine the concept of the Bible as control and subversion. Really, I'm at a loss as to whom I might ask, except that given the nature of the Exposing Christianity site, possibly some Satanists may know of more resources.

Because of the nature of the other forum (where I argue with the Christians, exposing the darkness in their religion to them-- much to their indignant rage), the real origins of Christianity and even Judaism are of great interest to me.

So anyway, that's my request. Does anyone have some resources on the real origins of Christianity, the real intent behind it, and the connection of it all to Enki?

Thank you ahead of time for any thoughts, on any of the whole situation.

The real origins have more to do with the holy roman empire and its stranglehold on European monarchy, culture, and education than it does with enki.

Anything by Zecharia Sitchin, or Andrew Collins' From the Ashes of Angels, are good starts toward the whole ENlil/Enki thing. Also anything by Graham Hancock, or the Gods of Eden by William Bramley. There’s actually a whole cottage industry of authors that are digging this stuff up.. just fire up Amazon and start clicking.

many conspirators, occultists, researchers, and lately movie producers have dwelt on these long ancient origins, and indeed they are entirely merited... but for the money I dont feel any of that really matters much in the here and now beyond historical fascination.

i love a Mesopotamian myth as much as the next guy, and its really cool to learn of cataclysmic events, wars, migrations, deities, lessons, truths and miracles that can be found in numerous peoples records, thus proving that the biblical authors were plagiarists of the finest caliber; however all I need to know is that Christianity came from the desert. Popes and congressmen and Sunday school teachers can scrub scrub scrub all they want and the gritty sand remains in its crack. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are three weeds from the same root. The one god is a god of war, and subjugation, oppression, and slavery, and it has consumed this planet. It is not like a metaphorical plague, it is the plague.And there is nothing more unnatural than worshiping another people’s god. Except perhaps being forced to do so by the point of a sword.And the rape of minds and the breaking of souls continues to this day. There is no fundamental difference between these ninja-like al-queda whom we cant seem to eradicate, and an abortion clinic bomber, or a kindly old black family that voted against homo rights here in California… because they ALL use their faith in a Semitic god , who incidentally is not real, to painfully bend the Will of other individuals who may not agree with what said god requires.

The dark ages and its ban on literacy, the holy wars, the witch hunts, the inquisition, the demonization of all peoples native or local gods and sacred customs, the complete destruction of northern European culture and tradition, the fight against stem cell research...?It boggles the mind and we have no idea how many millions of people died in a wet dungeon hole or underneath a banner bearing a blazing sword and cross.

And it will not end until reason and thought prevails, but it can never end, because history and human nature shows us that people are not wired to live in peace without trembling at the feet of a bloodthirsty god. We call them sheep, but that is an insult to sheep.

Good post, Bacchae. The myths of the old became the myths of the new, constantly recycled, constantly edited until we get a "Christianized" version in the bastardized text that became known as "the Bible." And even this over-stuffed book of myth and legend is incomplete, compiled at the whims of those with an axe to grind and, being creatures of their era, that axe was meant for their most current oppressor, ROME.

The Bible actually has nothing to do with today, any more than the fairy tale of Little Red Riding Hood. We seldom see little girls skipping through the forests to grandma's house, only to be confronted by the wolf; likewise, we don't need the comfort of an all powerful, all saving Messiah to throw off the yoke of slavery and injustice. So, those who yammer and preach about the lessons learned from the Bible are speaking towards the truths (as THEY saw it) in the past, which have very, very little relevence today.

People with the minds to think have always known not to trust the wolf. Today, we know the wolf is sometimes dressed as a sheep, and speaks in parables and fables.

This is my view, what I have learned... the biblegod is nothing more than the darkness in the heart of mankind, laid out for people to worship.

I have been really beginning to understand the issue lately, I think. For example, many people want revenge on others. But this tendency is made to be immoral. Yet so many christians thrive on the idea that their enemies will burn in hell- through their savior they will get their revenge.

These dark aspects of the biblegod... vengeful, arbitrary, capricious, rapacious, murderous, angry, greedy, selfish, etc. etc. ..... it almost reads like a litany of everything that is dark in humanity.

They quoted at me about "in the end times, evil will be made good," and I thought, "how immensely ironic!" What makes evil good more than does the bible?? God's genodical and condones slavery? Well, God HAD A GOOD REASON TO DO IT! And if they have to, they'll manufacture one! This biblegod is even conditional love, another human condition, so even the supposed "good" part of this evil and malevolent caricature is. Hmm. Not so good.

Anyway, some of the reasons why I feel there is something hidden in the past is because christianity systematicaly destroyed so many beliefs. I feel absolutely certain that some vital spiritual truths have been lost, and the key is in the history of our planet.

Frankly, this is what attracted me to a small degree at first to spiritual Satanism. The sense that the bible has literally turned everything upside down, deliberately gotten people to worship evil in the disguise of good. Deliberately repressed human spirituality and promoted separation.

Unfortunately, I am not at all drawn to the "hate christians" part of Satanism that I was introduced to during my search. I don't really have any interest in hating anyone, and I don't really want to be a vengeful person-- it doesn't suit me. Among other things that didn't really speak to me about the belief.

Although maybe I didn't understand. I wouldn't doubt that for a second. :p

Anyway, the real point is that I feel a lot has been lost. There's this kind of over-all assumption that our ancestors were stupid and we are getting smarter. But I just can't quite buy that-- it's pushed too hard.

Something lies in the forbidden knowledge, the wisdom that the christians (protestants and catholics alike) and muslims and jews systematically destroyed (along with the socialists and communists).

I've heard a LOT about Sitchen, but I'm not sure that anthropology is really what I'm looking for so much as a spiritual perspective. I undersatnd that most LaVeyans don't really have any interest in the idea of spirituality, and that's cool. I do happen to, though.

I appreciate your response very much, thank you for the discussion. I'll do some more research on these kinds of things.

What I'm kind of mostly interested in is the idea of Enki being the original god of the "goyim." This idea keeps coming back to me over and over again. It's like you said, it's insane to worship another race's god-- especially when that god is not only fake, but is actually all of the least pleasant parts of humanity packed into a "god" to be worshipped (sans the good bits).

Im not going to attempt to change your views or affiliations, but since you have opened this in an articulate and respectful manner, I shall respectfully engage.

This is my view, what I have learned... the biblegod is nothing more than the darkness in the heart of mankind, laid out for people to worship.

I am not sure what you mean by this, as it borders on abstract… however I will state that there is nothing wrong with darkness. It can be the opposite of light, or it can be a vacuum or absence of light, or it can be symbolic, or quite literal. If you are referring to darkness as being evil per se, then that really depends on who is doing the judging.

As for the “biblegod”, as you put it, the concept was not a new one when the desert people invented it, but it is entirely created by men. Excusing whatever purpose one creates a god for, this god is now used as leverage. Power. Dominion over men. Nothing more.

For example, many people want revenge on others. But this tendency is made to be immoral. Yet so many christians thrive on the idea that their enemies will burn in hell- through their savior they will get their revenge.

I disagree, as this statement makes the entire Christian populace appear to be passive aggressive pussys that wish upon stars. There is nothing further from the truth. Christianity breeds warriors, killers, and despots. In fact I will go so far as to say they perfected the art of violence.

These dark aspects of the biblegod... vengeful, arbitrary, capricious, rapacious, murderous, angry, greedy, selfish, etc. etc. ..... it almost reads like a litany of everything that is dark in humanity.

I agree, aside from what our personal definitions of “dark” may be.

They quoted at me about "in the end times, evil will be made good," and I thought, "how immensely ironic!" What makes evil good more than does the bible?? God's genodical and condones slavery? Well, God HAD A GOOD REASON TO DO IT! And if they have to, they'll manufacture one! This biblegod is even conditional love, another human condition, so even the supposed "good" part of this evil and malevolent caricature is. Hmm. Not so good.

Yes, another of the many contradictions of this religion. This is made more distinct by the old and new testaments, and also an obvious jumping off point for the jewish faith. Not so big on the new testament kinder gentler god, or so ive heard.

Anyway, some of the reasons why I feel there is something hidden in the past is because christianity systematicaly destroyed so many beliefs. I feel absolutely certain that some vital spiritual truths have been lost, and the key is in the history of our planet. I agree 150%. So many books have been burned, traditions crushed, sacred grounds stolen, and proud people assimilated. Replaced by the Borg hive mind.

Frankly, this is what attracted me to a small degree at first to spiritual satanism. The sense that the bible has literally turned everything upside down, deliberately gotten people to worship evil in the disguise of good. Deliberately repressed human spirituality and promoted separation.

You are a follower of Maxine dietrich and her JOS club? I didn’t catch it earlier, but now that I think of it she does mention enki a bit.“spiritual Satanism” IS a nice term, however hollow it may be. I wish I had thought of it first.This Father Satan theist stuff, is quite frankly, just replacing one religious belief for another. I see very very few differences between theistic Satanism and any of the semite god cults. They are still worshipping, cajoling, and prostrating themselves at the feet of an imaginary god-like figure, and basically whimpering. They make deals with demons? Wow. Lofty ambitions, but why an immortal and immensely powerful intra-dimensional being would give a shit about some Pentagram laden myspacers cheating boyfriend is beyond me. But I digress…One does NOT have to be completely atheistic in order to be truly satanic. Personally I am not. I do acknowledge that there are cosmic forces at work way beyond my comprehension, and I do recognize old gods dormant within my own DNA, whether they be archetypes or Jungian symbols, or flippin space monkeys… but I don’t pray to them. My goal is to transcend this base existence, much like a true Gnostic, and evolve with them, not below them. There are interesting aspects to the JOS that border on Gnostic, i.e. the theory that the jew/Christian/muslim god is in fact the evil one, and that the devil, or demiurge, is the good one, and all along the masses have been worshipping the wrong one. They should probably concentrate more on this, and drop the daddy fetish.Because its getting creepy.One of our former esteemed members here started a church on this exact same concept concept, but unfortunately he lost his mind and is now a conspiracy theorist.

Unfortunately, I am not at all drawn to the "hate christians" part of satanism that I was introduced to during my search. I don't really have any interest in hating anyone, and I don't really want to be a vengeful person-- it doesn't suit me. Among other things that didn't really speak to me about the belief.

Hate happens, but no one says you have to hate anyone.

I've heard a LOT about Sitchen, but I'm not sure that anthropology is really what I'm looking for so much as a spiritual perspective. I undersatnd that most LaVeyans don't really have any interest in the idea of spirituality, and that's cool. I do happen to, though.

Some lavey adherents do, some don’t. LaVey himself might have been more spiritual than you are aware of. The key to modern Satanism is self-realization, and awareness, and cutting your own path if that is what you need to do. We say fuck you to dogma, and that’s why we kick ass all over the place. I say “we” a lot, and you’ll have to excuse that, as I am not speaking for “us” as a collective because there is no “us”. Satanism is individualism exemplified. The 600 club in particular upholds this creed. I myself am not a LaVeyan as is commonly defined, but they still let me run around with scissors.As I stated above, one can very much find a spiritual current in Satanism. You just might not find it on a website.

What I'm kind of mostly interested in is the idea of Enki being the original god of the "goyim." This idea keeps coming back to me over and over again. It's like you said, it's insane to worship another race's god-- especially when that god is not only fake, but is actually all of the least pleasant parts of humanity packed into a "god" to be worshipped (sans the good bits).

I would go back to the bible, and look for clues in genesis, such as the nefiliem and lilith, cain and able. Etc, and then find correlations. Do some googling and look up Lawrence gardner, dragon lords, angels… man there’s SO much out there but you will need to dig. The books I mentioned in my previous post are excellent source material for research, but you will not find a codified religious system that encompasses all of this. Im sorry to say, you just wont. I have looked for years and its led to grail mysteries, rosicrucians, starfire rituals, typhonian tomes, hermetics, goetia, qlippoth, aliens, crop circles, and full circle back to hard historical data again. The subject is indeed very very deep and vast, encompassing all of human history, and your Amazon sales rep will thank you.

The bigger question is do you actually feel the need to worship something??? The Christian god is a lie, and it seems like you are learning that. The painful part is accepting that we are alone in the universe. Enki is dead and buried, and if its not, I can assure you that it, and any other god, sincerely has better things to do with its infinite existence.

Blame Constantine for Christianity. The First Council of Nicea collected Christian writings of the time and collected only the books which would paint the best possible picture of Christianity and Christ to serve their agenda, i.e. keeping the common people in line. If you're interested in learning about what Constantine left out of the bible, get yourself a copy of the Gnostic bible. Many of the "missing" biblical texts are there, but not all. The Gnostic Bible is also very fragmented due to the condition of the remaining texts...it's open to a lot of interpretation. However, it's a fun read.

As for your disdain of people praying for you, why bother caring? In fact, why not be glad for it? Any time someone is focusing their energy on you and your well-being is a good thing. If they want to do it in the name of God, Karma, or whatever, it certainly can't hurt you. A family member of mine is the head Abbess of a Catholic monastery and prays for me all the time. I always thank her for doing so. Why? Because good vibrations are good vibrations. The more people you have expending positive energy on you, Christian or otherwise, is never a bad thing.

I agree on the praying here. I can't be bothered if people pray for me or not. I don't ask them to do it or not but if they'd wanna waste their time at it, let them. It sure beats them throwing tomatoes. I do see how 'praying' can be beneficial at a personal level at times -there is nothing godly about it-, but I don't necessarily agree that it ever affects others, at least not those disbelieving it. If that would be true, the opposite would be true too. Hell, even the negative vibrations from people at this place would have killed me years ago. Not even adding them I bump heads with in reality.

Still, there is no harm in others praying for you and I'd either ignore it or cheer it.

The Nicea council indeed did fuck up christianity, not to mention about everyone that had a dominant function in the church after that. You'd wonder how they'd end from a hippie-religion into a killing machine. If I read the new testament and then think about the inquisition, I start wondering if they read the same testament.

Religion is rather complex and when it is used as a tool by others, those same people are also -at the same moment- used as a tool by religion itself. I don't think there is a grand scheme behind it, like secret brothers trying to dominate the world or something. It started to exist naturally at some point of time, probably based upon human morality and a need for explanations, likely also as an outer control force that could reach the very aspect natural law or societal law couldn't reach: the mind itself.

Im not going to attempt to change your views or affiliations, but since you have opened this in an articulate and respectful manner, I shall respectfully engage.

Thank you. It's all learning for me. Thanks for taking your time to teach, I appreciate it.

Quote:

I am not sure what you mean by this, as it borders on abstract… however I will state that there is nothing wrong with darkness. It can be the opposite of light, or it can be a vacuum or absence of light, or it can be symbolic, or quite literal. If you are referring to darkness as being evil per se, then that really depends on who is doing the judging.

Yes, I agree, it is a matter of perspective.

I would reference "evil" or "darkness" to be those things that bring a person to harm another person with intent to do so. The harming of another is a self-perpetuating cycle.

So in this particular case, I am using the word "darkness" as being representative of "harmful" or "evil." Perhaps even "undesirable" would be a component.

This is not to say that darkness itself is bad, as darkness is when we sleep, and it is healthy for our bodies.

And, according to what I believe, even evil has its purpose and perfect place in existance. But it's not desirable, if one wishes to be happy, feel good, and learn to control the illusion. And to worship it is to actively enslave yourself to the illusion, instead the other way around (the way it was meant to be).

Quote:

As for the “biblegod”, as you put it, the concept was not a new one when the desert people invented it, but it is entirely created by men. Excusing whatever purpose one creates a god for, this god is now used as leverage. Power. Dominion over men. Nothing more.

I think it is used for other things for some people personally. But on a broader social scale, I agree with you unequivocably (sorry spelling). It WAS created by men (not the other way around, lol), and it is little more than a way to justify horrific acts.

Quote:

I disagree, as this statement makes the entire Christian populace appear to be passive aggressive pussys that wish upon stars. There is nothing further from the truth. Christianity breeds warriors, killers, and despots. In fact I will go so far as to say they perfected the art of violence.

Definitely, there are those who are all of those things. But, in my opinion, this is because christianity is masterful at both making normal human emotions out to be the worst possible evils imagineable, and yet stirring them up and giving excuses to act them out in the most heinous possible ways.

It is bad to hate... unless you hate a homosexual. Then it's good, even godly, to hate. It's bad to kill.. unless you can find a biblical justification for it. Then it's good, even godly to kill. Etc., you get the idea.

Quote:

You are a follower of Maxine dietrich and her JOS club? I didn’t catch it earlier, but now that I think of it she does mention enki a bit.

Well, if by "follower," you mean an interested reader, yes. However, while I found the concept to be interesting and some of it really spoke to me, I had some issues with it, not only what I have already laid out, but some of what you touch on here, also:

Quote:

“spiritual Satanism” IS a nice term, however hollow it may be. I wish I had thought of it first.This Father Satan theist stuff, is quite frankly, just replacing one religious belief for another. I see very very few differences between theistic Satanism and any of the semite god cults. They are still worshipping, cajoling, and prostrating themselves at the feet of an imaginary god-like figure, and basically whimpering. They make deals with demons? Wow. Lofty ambitions, but why an immortal and immensely powerful intra-dimensional being would give a shit about some pentagram laden myspacers cheating boyfriend is beyond me.

Like that.

Quote:

But I digress…One does NOT have to be completely atheistic in order to be truly satanic. Personally I am not. I do acknowledge that there are cosmic forces at work way beyond my comprehension, and I do recognize old gods dormant within my own DNA, whether they be archetypes or Jungian symbols, or flippin space monkeys… but I don’t pray to them. My goal is to transcend this base existence, much like a true Gnostic, and evolve with them, not below them. There are interesting aspects to the JOS that border on Gnostic, i.e. the theory that the jew/Christian/muslim god is in fact the evil one, and that the devil, or demiurge, is the good one, and all along the masses have been worshipping the wrong one. They should probably concentrate more on this, and drop the daddy fetish.Because its getting creepy.One of our former esteemed members here started a church on this exact same concept concept, but unfortunately he lost his mind and is now a conspiracy theorist.

Yeah, another area I agree with you here is that there is definitely a problem with the concept of a "parent" deity.

I am as certain there is a higher intelligence in the universe as I am that I have two hands. Right or wrong, that's how I feel about it.

But the idea that this intelligence has any interest in subservience, groveling, and self-humiliation in its 'name' has become ludicrous to me. It would be like me starting to 'worship' my husband. Embarassing for us both, on a good day.

Quote:

Hate happens, but no one says you have to hate anyone.

It's something that I seem to keep running into when I speak with Satanists, and it was something that stopped me dead in my tracks with regards to Spiritual Satanism (along with the 'worship' thing).

The concept of the divine intelligence being harmful doesn't work for me, it doesn't make sense.

Quote:

Some lavey adherents do, some don’t. LaVey himself might have been more spiritual than you are aware of. The key to modern Satanism is self-realization, and awareness, and cutting your own path if that is what you need to do. We say fuck you to dogma, and that’s why we kick ass all over the place. I say “we” a lot, and you’ll have to excuse that, as I am not speaking for “us” as a collective because there is no “us”. Satanism is individualism exemplified. The 600 club in particular upholds this creed. I myself am not a LaVeyan as is commonly defined, but they still let me run around with scissors.As I stated above, one can very much find a spiritual current in Satanism. You just might not find it on a website.

I'm still learning, and I am only going on what I've read and heard so far, that it's kind of "two nearly opposite camps" of thought.

I have long considered the possibility that this is just more of humans trying to separate and compartmentalize things. You've somewhat confirmed that idea for me.

Quote:

I would go back to the bible, and look for clues in genesis, such as the nefiliem and lilith, cain and able. Etc, and then find correlations. Do some googling and look up Lawrence gardner, dragon lords, angels… man there’s SO much out there but you will need to dig. The books I mentioned in my previous post are excellent source material for research, but you will not find a codified religious system that encompasses all of this. Im sorry to say, you just wont. I have looked for years and its led to grail mysteries, rosicrucians, starfire rituals, typhonian tomes, hermetics, goetia, qlippoth, aliens, crop circles, and full circle back to hard historical data again. The subject is indeed very very deep and vast, encompassing all of human history, and your Amazon sales rep will thank you.

Yeah, so far, I kind of have the feeling that, "all religions contain truth. No religion holds the whole truth."

What I'm really after right now is the lost knowledge. In particular, I am "hung up" on the idea that a huge amount of our spiritual knowledge would be restored if we could reactivate our pineal glands.

So I've been studying physical protocols for decalcifying it, and am researching meditative and other methods of accessing it.

I believe that this is the single most important spritual knowledge that has been deliberately stripped from us.

From all of my research and learning, I have become convinced that Pineal Gland activation is the key to control over the illusion.

Quote:

The bigger question is do you actually feel the need to worship something??? The Christian god is a lie, and it seems like you are learning that. The painful part is accepting that we are alone in the universe. Enki is dead and buried, and if its not, I can assure you that it, and any other god, sincerely has better things to do with its infinite existence.

Good luck.

We are agreed here, again, for the most part. Except that I don't believe that humans are as unimportant on a spiritual scale as your comments appear that you do. I don't feel any need to "worship," so much as I feel a desire to "partner," in the same way that I felt a desire to partner with my husband.

Yeah, I know about all the stuff left out of the Bible because it wasn't controlling enough. Paints a very different portrait of Jesus, which even more strongly makes me feel that it's all a big farce.

The praying for me thing bothers me because it's NOT said kindly. It's not like when they say, "I'm sorry you're hurting, I will pray for you," it's "oh, you don't believe in the bible? I'll pay that god force you to believe it, you poor pathetic lost little thing, you."

It's not the praying that irritates me, it's the condescension and spitefulness with which they say it. The desire to entice an all-powerful being to force you to say they are right. That's all it amounts to.

I don't believe their prayer itself can do a darned thing. It's the intent that irritates, and what I was trying to show them in saying, "well, how about I have someone whose 'god' you think is vile pray that their god force you to 'kneel before him'?"

So no, I don't say anything besides, "thank you" when someone says they'll pray for me in a well-meaning way, like if I have pain or sorrow. It's the "I'll pray that god make you believe" that brings annoyance up in me.

What bothers you is that they try to turn you into one of them, with a little bit of help of their god.

Religion simply works like that, it makes believers proselytise, spread the virus and create intellectual drones. If all believe the same, the mission is accomplished. Very few believers don't behave according to that pattern. Some use extreme measures to reach their goal.

The main problem in this case is not them but you. Being a satanist in public is a thing debated upon a lot and what puzzles me most about the question is what the actual gain is. What is there to gain in general when you share your philosophy with others? Not much in my opinion. We don't need affirmation and we don't proselytise, so beyond that, there is no gain at all. Of course there can be a rewarding debate when done in a open environment with people that are actually prepared and intelligent enough to participate but outside of that controlled environment you only pay a price for being open about everything, or too much. I believe in secrecy when it comes to these matters. None in my environment knows what I really think. Sure, occasionally I talk about things and share my perspective but I never ever share my philosophy with them. I never talk about my beliefs. I seldom mingle with the really religious and even when, I don't talk the talk. I worked a year with a devout christian some time ago, one that could not shut up about religion on too many occasions, and he sure did pray for me but never did I once mention he was full of shit and that the god he believed in was just another collective figment of imagination. Why? Simple, what could I gain? Nothing. These people are not the types that are open for debate and the deeper you go into your opposition, the worse the reaction will be.

So in my opinion, the best approach is secrecy and only share in a controlled situation. It does make life much easier.

I don't share my beliefs with them, for many reasons, outside of my perspective of the Bible. In many ways, I am doing so because it has been instrumental in clarifying for me what I really DO think about it.

Share my beliefs with them? No way. I take a page out of their book on that one, "don't throw your pearls before swine." :p

But anyway, the discussions help me, but I also feel strongly that it's important that those who are there who are seeking be given a different perspective. I suppose you are right, though, why should I care or feel like that's MY job to give questioners an alternative viewpoint? Especialy when it opens me up to attacks by others?

My reasoning behind it is because I feel that all humans, to some degree, affect one another's lives. We share a nation, a society, a world. And I don't want to stop feeling love and compassion for others. For me, right now, a sincere attempt at being a voice in the sea of confusion and darkness is what I have to offer to others if they want to accept it.

The value of that is to be determined by the recipient, not the giver.

The pineal gland? Medieval thinkers thought it was the "soul organ" simply because it was located in the center of the brain, but it's just a part of our body. It regulates sleeping, puberty, and other temporal behavior patterns. There's nothing special about it.

I agree that much ancient wisdom was lost to senseless pillaging and iconoclasm, much of which was perpetrated by Christians. But this was mostly technological, literary, and philosophical.

Last week after being confronted by some Christian street preachers, I found myself talking to this one 40-something woman (the really superstitious type that hear voices and see demons and spirits behind every little thing) and she ended up offering to "pray" for me. Usually I find the idea disrespectful, and usually dismiss it by saying "I thank you for your concern, but I would rather your God not tamper with my free will, and let me think for myself". But she ended up falling to her knees and pleading with her imaginary father-deity to let me see the light and love of Jesus Christ and all that hoopla. She was trembling and tears actually started falling down her face. I was at a loss for words, and decided she must have some degree of mental illness.

As far as early Christianity goes, I find Gnosticism fascinating, and can respect it much more than conventional Christianity because it eschews superstitious dogma in favor of philosophical reasoning. But ultimately I cannot accept it because it vilifies the material world as evil, and strives towards the suspiciously-abstract spiritual ideal of "enlightenment" through gnosis, or supernatural experiences with the divine. It's so unrealistic.

Why would any intelligent person need to look for this idea of "ultimate reality" or "enlightenment" of a world beyond our own? Once people start detaching ourselves from reality like that, they stop caring about (and sometimes hate) their natural bodies, behaviors, and environments, and end up falling prey to mystical mumbo-jumbo that promises them secret occult knowledge like enlightenment and salvation. It's all unrealistic nonsense. Isn't THIS world good enough?

Wow! Everyone has so much to say from this post! I would like to say forgive me if I missed someone else saying this to the person who started this post:

Satanism based on Anton LaVey, is not a belief in Satan but rather a rejection of Christianity and the Christan god and Christian dogma. Basically, Satan is not real but the desire we feel is very real! If our desires are claimed my most religions as being of the devil, then we are of the devil and fucking proud of it! We indulge ourselves into our own desires and decide who we share our lives with and bless them with carnal delight.If you engaged in black magic, you would worship, in simple terms, mother nature. From the thighs and of the whom of desire we are all born. It would be a worship of life and selfish desires, hence Satanist.Satan represents the selfish humanistic desire in life as I understand and see it. As a Satanist, the worship of Satan is a metaphor. Satan is simply, anti-religious-god and represents humanism in it's most selfish desires. So, we care for each other of like minded but reject the beliefs and people who do not share them. We protect only those we hold dear above all and self preservation is the highest law!We expect that all people treat themselves as gods as we treat ourselves as Satanists. If you do not, you are meat.

Satanists glorify knowledge and desire. Hence, the reason why so many smart people are engaging this site. I believe the essence of Lavey Satanism attracts intelligent, loving people who are pissed off and fed up with the bullshit in society and religion.

Anyone disagree with me here? I am not a writer. Please clarify if I said something in correctly.

Edited by Jaguar (11/21/0805:38 AM)

_________________________
Learn From the Past,Provide for the future,Live in the present.

Thanks, Jaguar. It may sound strange, but I believe that humans, even the "humanitarian" ones, are innately and deeply self-centric.

Why do people help others? It's the right thing to do? Why does that matter? Because people want to be right. So is it really about the other person at all?

Because they care about the other person? So it is their feelings about the person that brings them to render aid, not the other person.

It always returns to a self-centric reason. If, as I believe, we are all expressions of God, then it makes sense that we would each be self-centric. For God is all that exists, so of course God is focused upon God.

Well, it makes sense when I think it.

I really appreciate your comments, thank you. I would agree, perhaps there is a little Satanist inside me, the way you describe it. I'm a loving person who has pretty much ahd it up to here with the vicious and violent religions that have been pushed at me in the past.

If I may, Pheonix. People help others because it makes THEM feel good. If they didn't help it would bother their conscience and THEY don't like to feel like that. So they take the actions necessary to keep their level of comfort within themselves.

Exactly my point. Even helping others is self-centric. It's beneficially self-centric to those being helped, but still.

The real question isn't whether or not humans are innately self-centric, IMO. It is pretty clear and obvious that we are. The real question is, is that necessarily bad?

I think it's only bad when it harms another who did not first harm you. I do have issue with that. A course of action that harms those who are not harming you, is a wrong course of action, and is one that I would answer in kind.

Without it a man would not survive. So no, with propper application it is an asset. Just the same as applying the "seven deadly sins." If you are appropriately doing it for YOU than it will be to your benefit. If you harm others who didn't first harm you(to use your example), you are doing a disservice to yourself. You want to make alliances where you can as this can pay off later in a form you may not have expected. Why would you desire to inflict harm on another who did not do you wrong? Seems a waste of energy. Focusing harm on those deserving would be more beneficial to yourself than to do so to "innocent" people. Ultimately EVERYONE does for their own self interest. Whether it be convincing ones self to love an enemy to gain the approval of a "god" thereby gaining favor(kissasses). Or raping and pillaging a village for "booty." It is unavoidable. Some just lack the wisdom to apply it propperly.

Apologies for the double post but to touch on your statement of "god," as you believe we are all expressions of, you would be right to assume so. Even the christian god is only looking out for his best interest. The bible even clearly and openly states that "god" is a jealous "god." Shit, how much more self-centric can you get damning all to eternity simply because we wont let him have his way. Reminds me of a child in the store on his belly kicking and screaming, then being handed a magnifying glass. So it wouldn't just make sense to YOU, had I believed in such a thing.

If you ever wondered what an abusive husband would do with "absolute power," just read the Bible, lol.

My ex-husband, an abusive man, would hold me down and nearly strangle me, slam me against walls, and many other physical assaults. He would proudly tell me that he had never abused me, though, because he had never once hit me. Reminds me of that "god," wherein god never abused humanity because he didn't directly kill us ALL off, with his own hand... And besides, didn't he kill his own kid off on our behalf? See how loving?! Heh.

Anyway, yeah, self centered beyond imagination, that story of "god." A total breaking of the commandment not to bear false witness. Well, in fairness, it doesn't say you can't bear false witness against god, lol.

But really, the point I'm getting to is, I don't think it's coincidence that most of the stories of 'gods' are little more than reflections of humanity... often its darker aspects (evil, whatever you want to call it. I prefer 'dark' because I think that both light and dark were created for a purpose, and that evil is a bit of a misnomer).

People are abusive only to people who allow them to be. This is how xians have such a nasty god... they like it that way. Kinda like S & M only not about sex... people's kinks are not just sexual, they taint every social structure we have- especially religion.