The point here is that the concept of "opening up a search and typing in the thing you're looking for (whatever that thing may be)" is actually a PRIMARY interface tool, not a secondary one. Finally, in all of this crazy UI stuff that Ubuntu has been trying, they get one right. And everybody's scratching their head wondering what the fuck it is. It is not that complicated. You are making it complicated. It is actually a really simple idea, and it's a good one.

and that is actually the problem! It being the PRIMARY interface tool is a huge step backwards (or maybe sideways). It can suppliment very well (like windows start menu search), but if MS had just had the search and gotten rid of the start menu, it would ahve been horrible.

Making something secondary is not getting rid of it. Menus will still be there, they just won't be the primary way of getting at things, because search will be better, easier, and faster in the vast majority of cases.

Wow, thanks for showing me the OSX help thing... that is pretty awesome.

To me (who loves that his job is to come up with new and increasingly stupidly complicated Excel formulas) loves the idea of doing low level scripting just to run programs. If I take this right, it's like typing an OSX automator script in real time and having the os do it? or am I understanding it wrong?

I don't see it catching on though. Seems a weirdly complicated way to do something.

That's very funny. I prefer a direct visual way of interacting with software, hence GUI. I can't imagine running Final Cut Pro by search query. But I'm not a Quicksilver fan either, and that's a similar concept. It's an interesting experiment and might really suit some people, so good on them for trying.

The point here is that the concept of "opening up a search and typing in the thing you're looking for (whatever that thing may be)" is actually a PRIMARY interface tool, not a secondary one. Finally, in all of this crazy UI stuff that Ubuntu has been trying, they get one right. And everybody's scratching their head wondering what the fuck it is. It is not that complicated. You are making it complicated. It is actually a really simple idea, and it's a good one.

If there's one universal truth throughout the varied types who make up Linux advocates, it's that they're even less tolerant of change than your average religious fundamentalist.

Also since someone mentioned Quicksilver - launchers like QS, Launchy, Alfred etc are the single best desktop UI improvement for the last 10 years. The best combination of CLI and GUI.

yes and no. It is also more intimidating and if you don't know what you want is called, then you might be screwed. I have many times when through the menus tryign to find the thing I wanted to do, because I didn't know what it was called (if I did, I just searched it in help).

The point here is that the concept of "opening up a search and typing in the thing you're looking for (whatever that thing may be)" is actually a PRIMARY interface tool, not a secondary one. Finally, in all of this crazy UI stuff that Ubuntu has been trying, they get one right. And everybody's scratching their head wondering what the fuck it is. It is not that complicated. You are making it complicated. It is actually a really simple idea, and it's a good one.

and that is actually the problem! It being the PRIMARY interface tool is a huge step backwards (or maybe sideways). It can suppliment very well (like windows start menu search), but if MS had just had the search and gotten rid of the start menu, it would ahve been horrible.

Making something secondary is not getting rid of it. Menus will still be there, they just won't be the primary way of getting at things, because search will be better, easier, and faster in the vast majority of cases.

I disagree. They might be for SOME people--absolutely. For many people using Ubuntu--maybe. For the population at large--I disagree.

Making something secondary is not getting rid of it. Menus will still be there, they just won't be the primary way of getting at things, because search will be better, easier, and faster in the vast majority of cases.

I disagree. They might be for SOME people--absolutely. For many people using Ubuntu--maybe. For the population at large--I disagree.

Most people who use online search seem to get the hang of it just fine, which I would believe is "most people", period. I'm not sure how providing that interface in a native interface will confuse them.

If there's one universal truth throughout the varied types who make up Linux advocates, it's that they're even less tolerant of change than your average religious fundamentalist.

I think they're less accepting of the argument that "we've made this change, it's better for you so shut up and use it" than most OS X / Windows users are. Generally you need to come up with a valid argument or proof that it works better, rather than just pushing it out there.

But hey, go ahead and assume all Linux advocates are equally as unthinking as a religious fundamentalist. Cause ad-hominems and painting them with the same brush as another group you dislike works so well.

They might also be less change tolerant simply because they don't have to be. If an update is very unpopular, instructions for undoing it will crop up pretty quick. Apple or Microsoft can make changes that users cannot reverse; Ubuntu can't.

I find the idea appealing. I'd much rather type "status bar" then go hunting through a browser menu trying to find the toggle.

But hey, go ahead and assume all Linux advocates are equally as unthinking as a religious fundamentalist. Cause ad-hominems and painting them with the same brush as another group you dislike works so well.

The problem here is if this replaces menus are in addition to them. Lt me note I'm talking about the concept itself, not ubuntu (I know it's in addition to what already exists)

1) In addition is fine. It's another way to navigate.

2) Replacing them is very bad. It would require the user to know everything a program can do. A new user would be hopelessly lost on a program. You lose the discoverable nature of a menu

I believe echohead2 is arguing the second point, which in content of the 2nd scenario (i.e. there are no menu/menu equivalents) is a very valid point

"For a start, we haven’t addressed the secondary aspect of the menu, as a visible map of the functionality in an app. That discoverability is of course entirely absent from the HUD; the old menu is still there for now, but we’d like to replace it altogether not just supplement it."http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/939

The problem here is if this replaces menus are in addition to them. Lt me note I'm talking about the concept itself, not ubuntu (I know it's in addition to what already exists)

1) In addition is fine. It's another way to navigate.

2) Replacing them is very bad. It would require the user to know everything a program can do. A new user would be hopelessly lost on a program. You lose the discoverable nature of a menu

I believe echohead2 is arguing the second point, which in content of the 2nd scenario (i.e. there are no menu/menu equivalents) is a very valid point

"For a start, we haven’t addressed the secondary aspect of the menu, as a visible map of the functionality in an app. That discoverability is of course entirely absent from the HUD; the old menu is still there for now, but we’d like to replace it altogether not just supplement it."http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/939

Don't see what all the fuss is about tbh.Let them play: if it doesn't work for me I'll install some other DE / WM.To be honest, I do most of my work in a terminal anyway so as long as its easy enough to launch one of those I'll be happy.

I believe echohead2 is arguing the second point, which in content of the 2nd scenario (i.e. there are no menu/menu equivalents) is a very valid point

Exactly and thank you for translating my gibberish shitty posts into something coherant.

As I had said, I downloaded that 2007 ribbon search command add-on for MS Office and think it is good. I think the search in the Windows start is good. I think adding them on is great, they are a great secondary method. Making them the primary or only method would be horrible, imo.

Also since someone mentioned Quicksilver - launchers like QS, Launchy, Alfred etc are the single best desktop UI improvement for the last 10 years. The best combination of CLI and GUI.

Not in my opinion. I know this is very subjective, but I find launchers like QS etc. to be:1) too slow in showing up to actually use for launching anything (unless I have nothing running, in which case I might as well click an icon on the desktop)2) too kludgy in performing more complex tasks. I've tried the stuff where you e.g. search up a file in some folder, then tab and select resize or something and tab and type in a size … and then you notice you actually wanted to do that to several photos, and you untab and miss a key and find you have to select the files all over and when you've finally remembered to do the Comma Trick, you stop and think: hey, is this going to _copy_ or _replace_ the files? I have no idea, this is scary, I'll just use the command line (or my favorite image viewer) where I know what I'm doing. At least that's how it works for me.

I tried to force myself to use QS because it looked so cool, but in the end had to conclude it was much less powerful than the command line, felt much more "ambiguous", started too slow and crashed too often. I've given other launchers a try too, but they all feel like a waste of time. Perhaps for those who feel the CLI is scary, but if you're enough of a power user to use QS, why not go all the way and learn the real deal?

Note: I do think the HUD is a good idea, it has a well-defined use-case. Menu fishing can be very frustrating, I just hope it shows just as instantly as the menu would itself

They might also be less change tolerant simply because they don't have to be. If an update is very unpopular, instructions for undoing it will crop up pretty quick. Apple or Microsoft can make changes that users cannot reverse; Ubuntu can't.

I find the idea appealing. I'd much rather type "status bar" then go hunting through a browser menu trying to find the toggle.

Linux user have more options so if you don't like a distros default UI choices you can change them, radically if you want. I installed Ubuntu 11.10, was initially wowed by Unity, used it a week or so, got worn down by it and dropped Cinnamon on top of Ubuntu to completely dump the entire Unity DE and now I am happy. It's really not worth arguing about, at most any distros default UI offering is a suggestion.Cuz it's cake to change it.

Search should never ever replace a list of actions, because search has zero discoverability. That's why I can type 'update' in the start menu to quickly run Windows Update, but I also open Control Panel to see what's possible.

The HUD is equivalent to Netflix replacing their entire website with a search box and let users 'discover' what movies they want to see.

Search should never ever replace a list of actions, because search has zero discoverability. That's why I can type 'update' in the start menu to quickly run Windows Update, but I also open Control Panel to see what's possible.

The HUD is equivalent to Netflix replacing their entire website with a search box and let users 'discover' what movies they want to see.

Well, again, apart from the bit where the existing menus remain exactly as they were. It's more like Netflix adding a search box to their site.

There was additionally some speculation that in the future this could be extended to encompass the “exploration” use-case for the menus as well, but it was stated multiple times that the current design is not expected to, nor will it, replace the existing menus.

The point here is that the concept of "opening up a search and typing in the thing you're looking for (whatever that thing may be)" is actually a PRIMARY interface tool, not a secondary one. Finally, in all of this crazy UI stuff that Ubuntu has been trying, they get one right. And everybody's scratching their head wondering what the fuck it is. It is not that complicated. You are making it complicated. It is actually a really simple idea, and it's a good one.

and that is actually the problem! It being the PRIMARY interface tool is a huge step backwards (or maybe sideways). It can suppliment very well (like windows start menu search), but if MS had just had the search and gotten rid of the start menu, it would ahve been horrible.

Is there any evidence it's the primary? In my Ubuntu 12.04 RC if you go up to the top with your mouse you get a menu, just like in 11.10. If you press alt, you get the search. If you press Alt+Letter, you get a menu popup like in any OS. They do seem complementary ATM.

Some of the bigger content creation apps already use a system similar to this.

Both Nuke and Houdini use a system where you just hit Tab and start typing the name of the node you want to use. It's vastly more efficient than hunting through the ridiculously deep menu equivalents, to the point I feel bad watching people use the menus.. Its generally just matching the first part of the string, and isn't as contextually aware and smooth as something like quicksilver. But even so, the only time I ever find myself reverting back to the menus is if I only have the vaguest idea that a function even exists, and I'm not clear enough on the idea to be even sure what it might be called.

I think its a great step forward to see this sort of thing being encouraged at the OS level.Its also nice to see a Linux distro innovating rather than just trying to be a knock off of what already exists....

Some of the bigger content creation apps already use a system similar to this.

Both Nuke and Houdini use a system where you just hit Tab and start typing the name of the node you want to use. It's vastly more efficient than hunting through the ridiculously deep menu equivalents, to the point I feel bad watching people use the menus.. Its generally just matching the first part of the string, and isn't as contextually aware and smooth as something like quicksilver. But even so, the only time I ever find myself reverting back to the menus is if I only have the vaguest idea that a function even exists, and I'm not clear enough on the idea to be even sure what it might be called.

After Effects has something similar for Effects & Presets, which can be kinda hard to locate in the Effects menu otherwise.

Tried Unity a bit yesterday. First time in a Linux distro in a couple years.

Absolutely maddening.

Is the launcher/taskbar thing supposed to appear when you hit the left edge? It wasn't, and Alt-Tab works - except that it also captures 'Tab' and resets my web pages to the top in the default Firefox. Alt-tab needs to be sloppy to be effective, period.

Chrome didn't come up in the App Launcher thingy, even though it's a popular app and the launcher is searchable. And the app launcher is nearly unusable without searching, intentional? Stupid.

And the App launcher icon doesn't look like one, and there's no help to find it.

The 'app store' thingy was separate, Chrome was findable, there. But why not in the app launcher? I'm online, why not integrate?

Searching on command doesn't bring up the terminal, it did give me an app store result for a terminal that isn't even called command?!

Here are the real issues: Ubuntu is going to be foreign territory for less educated and overeducated computer users at the same time. It need simplicity first. They know this, but then they have the wrong idea of simplicity.

Simplicity isn't hiding menus until you hover - people won't know where that is. It isn't hiding the kill button until you hover.

Simplicity isn't weird icons that have no relation to what they do. Which is launcher, app store, Ubuntu1? Icons are nearly useless for beginners UNLESS they relate to the real world in some way.

What was wrong with listing apps in menus? That was simple and made sense and had obvious words to interact with. Has the entire world gone crazy?

Lastly, it's less customizable than the last Ubuntu or any version of Windows or Mac. I always liked Linux because the interface was lightweight, but you could change it a million ways. Ubuntu is like bizarro Linux that way. I can't even keep the taskbar thingy from hiding, which caused fits of rage. What a simple stupid option to omit, which should be the default for beginners anyway.