narraboth wrote:The best way for some people probably is to drag out lama's corp out and put on an iron bed, and measure it every hour.

This is what modern people want and it goes back to what Pema Ridgzin mentioned.

Kirt

Those crowns are about a foot high. Since the body has been set up crossed legged, and it is clearly slumped, we can some natural shrinkage from loss of fluid of the body, but the skull has not shrunk, otherwise, the crown would be in the lap of the body.

Further, the body is in a box that has a 12 inch border in front of it (the Buddha statue is 18 inch size) -- that edge is not the edge of a cushion, but is the backpeice of the alter in front of it. Using the Buddha staues as a measure, you can see that the seated body is somewhere betwee 30 to 36 inches high. When I am seated, butt to crown, I am 39 inches.

We don't need to drag the body out, we just need to see daily pictures....

I will have to consider this "...Akhyuk Lama's kudon has shrinked to one hand high" to be a pious exaggeration. One hand high on me is 8 inches. Clearly impossible based on the photographic evidence.

Namdrol wrote:Those crowns are about a foot high. Since the body has been set up crossed legged, and it is clearly slumped, we can some natural shrinkage from loss of fluid of the body, but the skull has not shrunk, otherwise, the crown would be in the lap of the body.

Further, the body is in a box that has a 12 inch border in front of it (the Buddha statue is 18 inch size) -- that edge is not the edge of a cushion, but is the backpeice of the alter in front of it. Using the Buddha staues as a measure, you can see that the seated body is about 3 feet high (36 inches). When I am seated, butt to crown, I am 39 inches.

We don't need to drag the body out, we just need to to daily pictures....

Anyway, Khenpoa Achö was great practitioner.

N

one thing I don't agree here (which makes a big difference)is that the edge IS the edge of a cushion.see this photo:http://photos.travelblog.org/Photos/135 ... rone-0.jpgthat's a similar throne. Usually the table is added in front of it. In Akhyok lama's photo, there's no added table, there are only three layers of stairs.

why I say that? because if the edge is not the edge of a seat, the read square would be very long, make the shape of the throne abnormal.Just thinking a man sit on the normal throne above: where will his head be?http://vq.vassar.edu/upload/1160/images ... yeshi1.jpghe will be over the blue edge of back board.

so, partially as Namdrol said, if the buddha statue is 18 inch, lama's Kudon was about 18 inch when sitted.

I haven't seen any this kind of throne made as big as a man would be shorter than the edge of red part when he sit. If the throne in Yachen Gar is especially made that big (who will do this kind of silly trick?), all those thousands people will notice. But no, everyone there reported that the lama's body shrink, they saw lama Akhyok before, and saw that gompa before.

Just because the body shrink, so the hat fell down, made the upper body looked like a head, and the shoulder ornament fell, made the laps look like shoulders. There is no unseen lower part, unless they dig a hole on the throne or cut the lama's body from his chest.

narraboth wrote:The main propose of posting the photo on this forum is, to show that even today, people can achieve what tantra says. But those who doubt everything, they will always have something to argue, so let them be.

You're missing the point. I don't doubt rainbow body is possible. I believe my teacher's uncle, my teacher's teacher's two teachers and perhaps my teacher's teacher himself all achieved rainbow body. And others before them. It would be also silly to follow teachings while not believing in the highest attainment of those teachings.

I'm not saying that Akhyuk Rinpoche didn't or did achieve rainbow body, I'm just saying that this here is a picture. I cannot see anything in this picture. I don't know anything about thrones and those ornaments (and frankly, don't really care that much to find out), like many others, I'm sure. And the fact that you ask to google about these (how can anyone google about something they don't know even what it's called?) which would then require further comparative measurements (like you and Namdrol did) only further shows that there is not much to actually clearly see in this picture. I don't believe people should just throw all their critical thinking away when it comes to Vajrayana. Or they'll end up prostrating in front of Namdrol's fellow citizen who got recognized for a tulku in his dream.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

Thank you very, very much for posting these pictures. They are very inspiring. It is very clear (at least to me) the kudun is not sitting on a cushion but is on the altar. Oh to be there during Khenpo Achuk's thug-dam.

Pero wrote:You're missing the point. I don't doubt rainbow body is possible. I believe my teacher's uncle, my teacher's teacher's two teachers and perhaps my teacher's teacher himself all achieved rainbow body. And others before them. It would be also silly to follow teachings while not believing in the highest attainment of those teachings.

I'm not saying that Akhyuk Rinpoche didn't or did achieve rainbow body, I'm just saying that this here is a picture. I cannot see anything in this picture. I don't know anything about thrones and those ornaments (and frankly, don't really care that much to find out), like many others, I'm sure. And the fact that you ask to google about these (how can anyone google about something they don't know even what it's called?) which would then require further comparative measurements (like you and Namdrol did) only further shows that there is not much to actually clearly see in this picture. I don't believe people should just throw all their critical thinking away when it comes to Vajrayana. Or they'll end up prostrating in front of Namdrol's fellow citizen who got recognized for a tulku in his dream.

sorry if you felt harshly said. (although I didn't say it's you, did i?)the main point i was trying to argue were two:1. it's not totally meaningless to show the photo, unlike someone said.2. if someone couldn't know what it is, better not to say 'impossible' before doing some effort (anyone used this word? )in the whole dialog, the word sounds like since it's wrapped with yellow silk and with many ornaments, there's no possibility to correctly measure.in a way, yes, it's impossible to be 100% sure, because they won't let you get the lama's body out and check every hour, but surely it's possible to give you an idea of his body.

I totally agree that people should not throw away their critical thinking, i am not even saying it's wrong to doubt lama's shrinking.but you know critical thinking should be followed by what? research.If you don't really care that much to find out like you said, it's not wrong really. There's no such a obligation for people seeing this photo to be that interested.(although now I think I have the obilgation to do comparison for others since i posted it, I really think i should have and i confess )

as an offering, here i posted some other lamas' kudon photos (hope that won't make people uncomfortable. please don't think that's a common corp, well, even you think that way, it's helpful to decrease worldly attachment)

Khenchen Lu Tser from Dodrupchen Temple. He was a student of Dodrupchen Rilo, the dodrupchen rinpoche who died in chinese prison.he was 0.5 meter (20 inch) high in this photo, like a 5 yr old kid.

lu zer

lu tser.jpg (76.14 KiB) Viewed 1863 times

Khenchen Jigmed PhuntsogI don't need to introduce him i guess? One of HHDL's guru, truely great master.He used to be 100kg weight, but seems to be small in this photo

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Khenpo Cho chaHe was dharmafriend of Khenchen Jigmed phuntsok.A famous story: K. Jigmed Phuntsok visited him, KJP rinpoche was already famous and rich at that time. Khenpo cho cha was doing lecture, let him and all his retinues wait outside for 2 hr before asked him in. Then he offer KJP rinpoche some very hard and dry butter cookies, saying 'enjoy, that's what we always eat.' Then khenpo cho cha staring KJP rinpoche, saying 'you are really too fat, too fat.' KJP rinpoche smiled and said: 'you are really too thin.'After the meet, KJP rinpoche praised khenpo chocha: 'that's what I call a true buddhism holder!' And khenpo cho cha said to his students: 'if one day Khen Rinpoche leave this world, I don't need to stay either.'his body shrinked.

cho cha.jpg (125.81 KiB) Viewed 1872 times

I tried to find Penor Rinpoche or Mingling trizin rinpoche's kudon photos but couldn't find. shrinked or not, they were all very great lama.

I am a Dzogchen practitioner, myself. I believe in the possibility of rainbow body. I don't know much about this lama or Khenpo Cho Cha, but I definitely don't doubt the realization of Khenpo JigPhun... All the same, it is impossible to even know that there are human bodies inside all those coverings. I don't personally think it's necessary to "place the kudung on an iron bed and measure it hourly", but I would actually have to SEE the kudung to observe it lol. I'm sure these photos are the kudung of these great lamas, but from the POV of the viewer (either remotely or there in the gompa) it could be a doll inside there for all we know.

And since Tibetans are no strangers to trumping things up to save face or "inspire faith", and since Westerners in their own right are no strangers to putting on very elaborate hoaxes and magic tricks that are often very, very difficult to debunk because of they are made to look so real and detailed and appear wayyyy more convincing than photos like these, it is really impossible for most of us to look at what looks like a doll wrapped in lama clothes, with no face or hands showing, and have heartfelt, convinced faith that we are witnessing the shrinking of rainbow body. So basically, I neither disbelieve nor believe that the above photos are what they're claimed to be. I just have no way of knowing.

It also doesn't help that both Tibetan and Western Buddhists with their heads in the clouds love to post pics on the internet with some sort of common photographic light anomalies (that are only barely even in the shapes of circles or spheres) and type captions under them like "look, it's tigles!!!" or pictures where the lama happened to have moved a bit on the throne when his picture was taken, so that the resulting picture looks like he's transparent, and then write under it "rainbow body!!!"

So intelligent people are going to be difficult to convince and will have a hard time just trusting that these apparently Tibetan people in these photographs that they've never met have, true to their word, dressed up their lama's kudung and placed it on the throne/altar and that that is what we're seeing.

Pema Rigdzin wrote: pictures where the lama happened to have moved a bit on the throne when his picture was taken, so that the resulting picture looks like he's transparent, and then write under it "rainbow body!!!" .

It is even worse when the Lamas in question say of their blurred photos that they were in the state of Dharmakāya at the time...charlatons.

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Pema Rigdzin wrote: pictures where the lama happened to have moved a bit on the throne when his picture was taken, so that the resulting picture looks like he's transparent, and then write under it "rainbow body!!!" .

It is even worse when the Lamas in question say of their blurred photos that they were in the state of Dharmakāya at the time...charlatons.

Wow, at least I've never personally come across a lama like that. Only pie in the sky disciples who apparently don't understand the awakened phenomena they're talking about.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:It also doesn't help that both Tibetan and Western Buddhists with their heads in the clouds love to post pics on the internet with some sort of common photographic light anomalies (that are only barely even in the shapes of circles or spheres) and type captions under them like "look, it's tigles!!!"

The thigle thing is funny, and quite explainable. The earths magnetic field creates what are called telluric lines. Often times sacred sites were built on these naturally occurring electro-magnetically charged areas. The Giza Pyramids and Lhasa are examples. When you take a photograph in these areas they often show these "thigles" in the developed picture. Some areas will even fill the photo with them. Ruins in Central and South America have a very strong manifestation of this phenomena.

I am a Dzogchen practitioner, myself. I believe in the possibility of rainbow body. I don't know much about this lama or Khenpo Cho Cha, but I definitely don't doubt the realization of Khenpo JigPhun... All the same, it is impossible to even know that there are human bodies inside all those coverings. I don't personally think it's necessary to "place the kudung on an iron bed and measure it hourly", but I would actually have to SEE the kudung to observe it lol. I'm sure these photos are the kudung of these great lamas, but from the POV of the viewer (either remotely or there in the gompa) it could be a doll inside there for all we know.

And since Tibetans are no strangers to trumping things up to save face or "inspire faith", and since Westerners in their own right are no strangers to putting on very elaborate hoaxes and magic tricks that are often very, very difficult to debunk because of they are made to look so real and detailed and appear wayyyy more convincing than photos like these, it is really impossible for most of us to look at what looks like a doll wrapped in lama clothes, with no face or hands showing, and have heartfelt, convinced faith that we are witnessing the shrinking of rainbow body. So basically, I neither disbelieve nor believe that the above photos are what they're claimed to be. I just have no way of knowing.

It also doesn't help that both Tibetan and Western Buddhists with their heads in the clouds love to post pics on the internet with some sort of common photographic light anomalies (that are only barely even in the shapes of circles or spheres) and type captions under them like "look, it's tigles!!!" or pictures where the lama happened to have moved a bit on the throne when his picture was taken, so that the resulting picture looks like he's transparent, and then write under it "rainbow body!!!"

So intelligent people are going to be difficult to convince and will have a hard time just trusting that these apparently Tibetan people in these photographs that they've never met have, true to their word, dressed up their lama's kudung and placed it on the throne/altar and that that is what we're seeing.

Khenpo Achuk took over the tens of thousands of monks and nuns and many serious near full-time practitioners from his friend Jigmed Phuntsok. Both are renowned for the numerous miracles they manifested in public as testified by those who were there on different occasions despite whatever we think from afar or write in dismissing them on the internet for the many to read as 'Dzogchen practitioners'! Which you are free to do and for the rest of us to comment on too. I even read an academic article in a book of TB academic studies which compiled many peer reviewed articles from journals and archives on TB revival, and this particuar one on JP's miracles in receiving terma objects and stone orbs in front of large crowds. The author merely detailed few of these with photos and testimonies and said there were numerous witnesses present without making a judgement. Also these two historic masters faced the full wrath of security agents and secret police like no other since the invasion and cultural revolution due to their unprecedented revival of dhrama and mass gars and more and are great heroes like no one else inside Tibet in recent times as well as their other great achievments as practitioners, teachers and ultimate hope and refuge of yogins and ordinary people inside Tibet. Now you can disbelieve all their miracles and their shrinking of some of their high disciples as Narraboth recalled, it is your choice. But at this sad historic time to go on the internet and say as far as one is concerned there could possibly be a doll inside Achuk's body's very small covering in the middle of thousands of mourners, forget the Tibetans inside who never get much from us foreigners, is not going to help one's practice IMO by publicly spreading such made up mentally invented 'stories'.

I never doubted or dismissed anything about these masters' realization or capabilities, including their ability to achieve rainbow body. However, just because I have faith in them does not mean I am going to blindly extend that faith to every image any Tom, Dick, and Harry posts on the internet and attributes to them - especially since numerous irresponsible people, Western and Tibetan alike, have posted well intended but bogus-ass images attributed to authentically realized masters in the past. How am I to know where that photo originally came from and why whould I believe that under a bunch of brocade is this lama's rainbow body? Really, why? So, in summary, while I am perfectly prepared to believe that these great lamas realized the Great Perfection and achieved rainbow body, there is no cause for me to automatically believe that their rainbow bodies have been captured in the internet photos I have been shown, whose providence I have no way of knowing. And for your information, I only ever said that I have no way of knowing what's under the brocade in these photos. I did not say I believe that there are nothing but dolls under it, so relax yourself.

And lastly, until you can stop belittling, mocking and berating your vajra brothers on this internet forum - and now add to that accusing them of "making up stories that will hurt their practice" when they have not done anything of the kind - with absolutely no admission that you've done it or any regret ever, you have absolutely no business criticizing anyone for anything at all relating to Vajrayana conduct. I know you see yourself as someone greatly realized and special and of impeccable conduct compared to the rest of us, but you really need to examine the validity of that idea.

I never doubted or dismissed anything about these masters' realization or capabilities, including their ability to achieve rainbow body. However, just because I have faith in them does not mean I am going to blindly extend that faith to every image any Tom, Dick, and Harry posts on the internet and attributes to them. How am I to know where that photo originally came from and why whould I believe that under a bunch of brocade is this lama's rainbow body? Really, why? So, in summary, while I am perfectly prepared to believe that these great lamas realized the Great Perfection and achieved rainbow body, there is no cause for me to automatically believe that their rainbow bodies have been captured in the internet photos I have been shown, whose providence I have no way of knowing. And for your information, I only ever said that I have no way of knowing what's under that brocade. I did not say I believe that there are nothing but dolls under it, so relax yourself.

And lastly, until you can stop belittling and berating your vajra brothers on this internet forum - and now add to that accusing them of "making up stories that will hurt their practice" when they have not done anything of the kind - without absolutely no admission that you've done it or any regret ever, you have absolutely no business criticizing anyone for anything at all relating to Vajrayana conduct. I know you see yourself as someone greatly realized and special and of impeccable conduct compared to the rest of us, but you really need to examine the validity of that idea.

1- I did not talk about if he is achieving the rainbow body partly as a shrinkage.

2- No, your original post is there where you mention in two sections how it could possibly even be a doll underneath as far as you are concerned. Which is what I said.

3- The largest secret police in history, and one of the world's worst, is there in large numbers. There is very little chance of such a stunt being pulled.

4- You can claim later when the historic Achuk died you initiated the idea in the public domain of internet, mentally invented with no base in references to the real event, that there could possibly be a doll underneath and it was helpful to you. I'm sure the neo-Maoist hardliner factions' forums will welcome this invented association with joy and take it up.

5- The last part is again a personal attack and I am not going to respond.

Good luck.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:from the POV of the viewer (either remotely or there in the gompa) it could be a doll inside there for all we know.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:it is really impossible for most of us to look at what looks like a doll wrapped in lama clothes

Yes, as any intelligent, honest person can admit to himself, it is impossible for you, me, and anyone but the person who took these pictures to know where they were taken, and what is the true subject of the photos - including whether or not that which they are depicting is actually the rainbow body of any master. I really don't doubt that Khenpo JigPhun died in an extraordinary, awakened way, and since Khenpo Achuk and the other Khenpo were his colleagues and highly-esteemed by him, I don't doubt they did either - but I have no way to know that their mahaparinirvanas are what has been captured in these or any photos that have appeared on the internet and neither do you, so you can quit your attention-grabbing insinuations that I've slandered a great master when I've never even come close.

How anyone could be inspired by some photos they have no way of knowing the authenticity of is beyond me. Suit yourself.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Yes, as any intelligent, honest person can admit to himself, it is impossible for you, me, and anyone but the person who took these pictures to know where they were taken, and what is the true subject of the photos - including whether or not that which they are depicting is actually the rainbow body of any master. I really don't doubt these masters died in an extraordinary, awakened way - but I have no way to know that this is what has been captured in some photos that have appeared on the internet and neither do you.

How anyone could be inspired by some photos they have no way of knowing the authenticity of is beyond me. Suit yourself.

I don't know if he has shrunk. The mandala people of Jigmed Phuntsok and Achuk would be very stupid to pull such a stunt, placing a doll, as it would be very self destructive to the dharma and they are not morons to do that. It would also frankly be impossible with the usual huge number of secret police that had/has always been around both these two leaders since the 80's and specially the 90's and so highly improbable as the secret police would not miss such an opportunity for the Beijing regime and they have full control of the areas as usual. Again, I repeat that I don't know if he has shrunk any or not which is a separate issue.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Yes, as any intelligent, honest person can admit to himself, it is impossible for you, me, and anyone but the person who took these pictures to know where they were taken, and what is the true subject of the photos - including whether or not that which they are depicting is actually the rainbow body of any master. I really don't doubt these masters died in an extraordinary, awakened way - but I have no way to know that this is what has been captured in some photos that have appeared on the internet and neither do you.

How anyone could be inspired by some photos they have no way of knowing the authenticity of is beyond me. Suit yourself.

I don't know if he has shrunk as I said. The mandala people of Jigmed Phuntsok and Achuk would be very stupid to pull such a stunt as it would be very self destructive to the dharma and they are not morons to do that. It would also frankly be impossible with the usual huge number of secret police that had/has always been around both these two leaders since the 80's and specially the 90's and so highly improbable as the secret police would not miss such an opportunity for the Beijing regime and they have full control of the areas as usual. Again, I repeat that I don't know if he has shrunk any or not which is a separate issue.

You're missing an important point. How are you to even know that these kudung photos are even photos OF Khenpo Achuk's or Khenpo JigPhun??? You don't. Or maybe you were there so you recognize the scene. Maybe you helped dress the kudung and can recognize it in this photo. If that's it, then just come out and say it. I wasn't there, so I can't confirm the locations in these photos or what's under that brocade. Also, I'd like you to understand that to say that one doesn't know is not to refute anything. If one doesn't know, then one can also not say that there is not a kudung under the brocade. My only point ever was that for me to be inspired by such a photo and have faith in it, I would have to see something which I could confirm as being what strangers have claimed it to be. So let's leave these masters out of it. This discussion has nothing to do with any master and everything to do with the need for observable evidence when an extraordinary claim is made to intelligent people with critical thinking skills.