Starting this convo in its own thread because feminism discussions seem to keep getting derailed by rape culture discussions, which slip into discussions about rape itself. The article below delineates the difference, and pretty succinctly and respectfully answers a lot of questions on the issue.

Honestly, feminism is kind of a big topic to tackle in just one thread. While it hugely contributes to the subjugation of women, I feel like there some other societal impacts that help rape culture warrant it's own floor for discussion.

Lauren Nelson wrote:

Once upon a time, it was socially acceptable to joke about beating a man because of the color of his skin. Today, jokes like that land you in social Siberia (for the most part Ė racism isnít dead).

Why? Because people took a stand for what was right. When we talk about rape culture, thatís what weíre asking Ė do the right thing. Donít stand for the rape jokes. Donít support companies who think rape depiction is a solid marketing idea. Donít make excuses for the perpetrators. Educate yourself, and educate others.

I think the conversation would have to start with the question "is a rape joke ever acceptable," much like conversations about the same sorts of issues in racism would start with the question "is a racial joke ever acceptable"

Ahm... ok, I though that Sam was trolling me a bit (the second or third time of a "... what?" response) but if you say too, I think I need a reword.

I was trying to say that a rapist see other persons as objects he/she can use at will. I think too that anyone who see people as persons with ideas, lives and feelings can't be a rapist, because recognizing that treats in others prevents harm them.

I guess I am talking about violent rape. I don't know if my point could stand in a statuory rape or a in-relationship/marriage-rape

I think Sam's "...what?" may have been in response to your thanking him for "the paper," Arkhron; from what I can see, Sam didn't post a link to a paper or article. BK was the one who posted the link to the thought-provoking article on how to discuss rape-culture with a skeptical listener.

Also, I'd say that most wrongs begin when people see other people as objects (Granny Weatherwax was right, in that regard. ) But rape can take things even further. In many ways, it's a hate crime. So, not only is the victim objectified by the rapist, but the victim may also come to stand as a symbol for what the rapist hates._________________I am only a somewhat arbitrary sequence of raised and lowered voltages to which your mind insists upon assigning meaning

Anecdote. Me and my roommates moved into a house that was a college party house before we moved in. As in you can still see the dicks drawn in pink sharpee on the walls slightly through the paint job that was slapped on before we moved in.

There had been a lot of remodeling work done on the place and in the bedroom that we decided to turn into a den, one of those closets with the sliding doors had been converted into a "half bath" of sorts, with a tiny sink, a toilet, and a mysterious bar installed in the wall and positioned just close enough to the toilet and sink to make K my roommates then girlfriend go "Ugh, this place comes with a rape closet"

As somebody who is a) extremely sexual, b) attracted to women and c) very sensitive to visual stimulus, I am never /not/ thinking about the comfort level of any of my lady friends who cosplay or wear sexy clothing. I looked at this picture and had a very defined, "Whoa, hot!" reaction, and that's fine! But to assume she would *welcome* my advances or harassment, or to make advances or harass without regard to how it would make her feel -- that kind of entitlement is so fucking foreign to me.

Sometimes I catch my eyes lingering a little too long on a woman's cleavage, and *I* feel the shame. And you know what? THAT IS WHERE THE SHAME BELONGS. Not on the person exposing the cleavage. What is a shame is that a lot of people are deterred from cosplaying, something that can be a passion for a lot of people, because it's considered a "reasonable" expectation that if you cosplay, you will be sexually harassed. And that's straight up fucked up.

It should be a reasonable expectation that if you sexually harass somebody, YOU will be shamed. I long for a world where that is the paradigm. And this brave lady is working toward that.

Pretty salient, I thought.

The next post is from my friend, also my age, white male:

Dude Friend wrote:

I cant help but think that maybe you shouldn't wear a skintight jumpsuit with your cleavage completely hanging out, go to a comic convention, agree to be interviewed by a group of dudes...and complain when the subject revolves around your cup size. Not justifying their actions but it seems like an obvious outcome to me.

Another friend accused him of victim blaming, suggesting that he'd ask a rape victim what she was wearing, and he responded with:

Dude Friend wrote:

Lol Yeap because you know anything about me. I said I would never do that, and I wasn't justifying their actions but that shes a fool to voluntarily wear a skin tight revealing outfit, go to a convention where woman are portrayed as sex objects, agree to take pictures, agree to be interviewed because what she's wearing, no one touched her, no on violated her, she asked him to stop and he did and now I'm labeled a rapist sympathizer because of some.ridiculous obtuse gender biased correlation between voluntary objectification and rape. I love all this hypocrisy about respect. You and your phony morals don't know me and have no right to pass such judgement.

Since things seemed to be heating up, I finally stepped in with:

BlackKitty wrote:

Woah, there guys.

My response is a little delayed because I wanted to take some time to really think about what's going on in this story, and kind of analyze why it upsets me.

Dude Friend, the problem is that there's this mentality that women are somehow responsible for how people treat them.

Mandy dressed up as a character she liked and went to a convention for comics, which she presumably likes. The idea that she was somehow asking for harassment by expressing her interests is... well, it's fucked up, and majorly contributes to a fear of self-expression in women.

She said in the article that she was asked for an interview "about ComiCon," not about her appearance or her cup size. I'm sure you know that you don't need to touch someone to sexually harass them. And the interviewer didn't stop when she told him it was none of his business - he pressed the issue until she eventually had to walk away.

My problem with your reaction is that, even though you aren't consciously justifying their actions, calling her a fool for expecting people to be civil about how she chooses to express herself is doing just that. It's focusing the shame in the scenario on her, the victim, and that validates the actions of those creepers.

And yeah, maybe skin tight spandex is sexual. But so are women. And the idea that a woman can't feel comfortable or safe about expressing her sexuality in this country is another huge problem.

The only people responsible for treating her like that are the men who were doing it.

Then redirected him to check out the comments on the second link from themarysue.com for some more interesting thoughts on the subject.

This guy is pretty cool. I would have expected a little more sympathy from him. But I guess that's why it's important to have these conversations, because this mentality is so deeply embedded in our cultural subconscious that it's lurking in unexpected places.

I wonder how my 'Festers would respond to such a conversation. What are your thoughts?

Last edited by Black Kitty on Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

Joined: 01 Oct 2006Posts: 9129Location: The thing in itself that is Will

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject:

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:

It was the first thing in her head and right out of her mouth. Seems at the least tangetically relevant to the concept of rape culture, at least in america.

but what is a 'rape closet' exactly? I tried to google it and besides some disturbing youtube videos I got nuthin._________________When life gives you lemons, some people make lemonade. I just eat them and make a sour face.

The whole thing is a two way street but yet we're all pretending this only happens to women? Men are sexual, and believe me..we have just as hard of a time expressing our sexuality without being called perverts, creeps, socially retarded boys, etc. Take this thread for example, I said she was foolish for whining about guys looking at her protrusive cleavage and was quickly labeled a rapist sympathizer by someone who has never even met me. Why? Because I'm a guy. If I was a girl I don't think that assumption would have been so quick to be made. I had my girlfriend read the article before seeing these posts and she said the girl had no sense of humor and the guys were just having fun. When she read these posts her jaw almost hit the floor. I guess it's all a matter of perspective..

Whoo, boy, that packs a wallop.

Closer, Older Gentleman Friend wrote:

The thing is this: The "interviewer" began the interview by sticking his ass in the girls face. Read her article. In my book, that is not expressing sexuality, that is being a dick. An immature dick. Kind of like Howard Stern, who he probably admires.

Well, yeah. Exactly, ha ha.

BlackKitty wrote:

1) No, I'm sure harassment, victim-blaming, and repression of expression doesn't just happen to women. I didn't say it did. But it /does/ happen to women. A lot. I am definitely interested in male image issues, but this article happens to be about a woman, who I sympathize with because I am a woman and I deal with this issue.

2) Everyone should be able to express their sexuality *without infringing on the rights of others.* So a girl dressing herself is her affecting herself. A guy getting a crowd of dudes to guess a girls bra size (when she already said she was uncomfortable with it) is affecting someone else. That's not acceptable. There are ways to express oneself without harming others.

3) If you were a girl, I'm pretty sure every single person here would have responded in the same way. Women are just as capable of victim-blaming as anyone else - even more so, perhaps, due to the hypercritical nature of our media's treatment of women. We're all trained into this mindset, and it only harms each other, both men and women. That's why I talk about this stuff, to stretch people's expectations of society.

The fact of the matter is that victim-blaming is exactly what you were doing, Dude Friend. I'm sorry, I hope you don't find that offensive. I love you and value your friendship. If you look at the situation, and the definition of victim-blaming, and then look objectively at your statements, I hope you'll realize what I mean.

The number of times these conversations need to be had is exhausting. But patient, diplomatic conversations seem to be the most effective way to get the idea across.

I wonder how my 'Festers would respond to such a conversation. What are your thoughts?

I'm torn. On the one hand, yes, it would be nice to be able to freely express ones sexuality without fear of being hassled. On the other, I expect folks to behave with some decorum and some sensibility. And that applies to everyone. The reporter was way out of line for his comments--a striking lack of decorum on his part, and worthy of shunning.

On the other hand, I've seen teenagers dry-humping in a mall and I've seen some cosplay costumes that belonged in soft porn instead of in public; one should know when and where the expression of ones sexuality is inappropriate.

Was your friend victim-blaming? Yeah, it kind of sounds like it. But it also sounds like he's doing so without being aware of it. And, I think, he seems to be responding to Mandy's costume with a bit of shocked concern; have you asked him if he finds that costume to be a little over-the-top and a touch too provocative? (Feel free to forward him my comments, by the way, and tell him that I, too, can be an exasperating dudebro from time to time, depending on the opinion under discussion at the time.)

Bear in mind that the answer to that depends a lot on personal tastes and upbringing, so there's no one "right" answer. True, I don't find Mandy's Black Cat costume--or what I can see of it, at least--all that excessive, but it would garner comments from either of my parents and probably from my ex-wife, as well. So, it's not something that should be worn out on the street. At a fan convention, though? Probably o-kay; one knows what to expect at such gatherings, and risque costumes are part of the scene. Your friend, though, may disagree with me and may find the costume shocking regardless of where it might be encountered. That's o-kay; sticks-in-the-mud help keep society from going overboard and exercising "freedoms" that actually impinge upon the freedoms of others.

That much said, there is also the matter of exercising some sense. I would certainly not expect Mandy to wear that costume late on a Friday night in a bad part of town. Doing so would just be inviting trouble. Would that trouble be wrong? Yes! Should the world be such that she shouldn't have to worry about such trouble? Yes! Is the world that way? Hell, no! And ignoring that fact of life will put somebody in the hospital or the morgue, regardless of how wrongful that may be.

It's one thing to strive for awareness and for decent manners all around. It's another thing entirely to ignore the fact that there are dangerous and unpleasant people out there, placing blind faith in ones expectations of decency. Tease the animals, and you're gonna get bit.

So, in summation: the reporter was an asshole. Completely agreed, and I hope the summitch gets professionally reprimanded and personally shunned in direct response to his disgusting behavior. But let's not forget that there are assholes out there, people, and let's strive not to become such, ourselves, as we express our own sexuality when and where appropriate._________________I am only a somewhat arbitrary sequence of raised and lowered voltages to which your mind insists upon assigning meaning