If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Of Angst and Awakening

Hi,

This subject is so important, I judge, that I want to split it off ...

My issue with some of the comments by Stephanie (and Chet too, for that matter) is -- not in any way -- about how it is "wrong and misguided" to practice working with the "dark side" of life (the angst, the ugliness, the drunk tank at the county jail, looking poverty and desperation and despair square on, both outside us and within) ... nor am I ever saying that it is "right and proper" to practice -- only -- with the sweet and smiling and "everything nice" (lovely flowers and sunshine and pretty postcards and "Hello Kitty").

I do not teach that, I know few teachers who do.

In fact, I take the dark as much as the light in my practice ... to read about (or experience) the ugliness of war, why children and the seemingly innocent suffer in this life, to work on the cancer ward ... I believe that it is vital to our way. When I visited Vietnam last year, I headed right to the war museum and survivors' groups to practice with the napalm and missing limbs. I have worked at bed side in Hospices with people reduced to skin and bones and open sores. I believe that this practice is found as much with the Buddha who is a prostitute in the toilet of the bus station as in some Golden Temple.

This practice -- is not -- about avoiding, and failing to pierce, the ugliness and broken glass and weeds!

My issue with some of the comments by Stephanie (and Chet too, for that matter) is not that ... but on how they define, seemingly, what "awakening to" the "Truth" of all that means.

Further, I believe they are simply wrong when they imply that the Buddhist teachings regarding seeing through all that ... seeing through to that place without either war or its cessation, birth and death, broken glass or anything to break ... is somehow complacent, luke warm, namby-pamby, "stiff upper lip" stoic, "buji" light weight, middle class self congratulatory Zen practice. That's CRAP!

Gautama Buddha left the palace to look at the issues of sickness, old age and death. It is just the same "Dukkha" if we add abused kids, battlefields, poverty, broken marriages, bankruptcy, horrible car crashes and all the rest ... all the same. His "awakening" resulted in great peace and understanding --even amid-- all that. He found peace amid war, that which transcends "life and death" even in the cancer ward. HE DID NOT find the cure for cancer or for war (save that he identified the disease which causes war through greed and anger). He found "Peace, Joy, Love and Security" in this life amid both beauty and it opposites.

That is what is taught here ... namely, dropping all thought of "peace vs. war" even amid the horrors of the battlefield, even as we might fight to stop the greed and anger which cause war.

That is what is taught here ... dropping all thought of "life vs. death" and a separate "self" to kill or be killed, even as we might fight to halt the wars and cure the cancers.

WE ARE COMPLETELY "AT ONE" WITH THE WORLD "JUST AS IT IS" ... even as we seek to make it better, a garden and not a garbage dump.

What is more ... TRUTH can be found as much in beautiful flowers as in weeds, fatherhood in a childrens' playground as on a battlefield, milking cows as much as OD'ing in the bus station. Don't knock sunny days and innocence and pleasant scenery. Heck, even "Hello Kitty" is BUDDHA!

This practice sweeps in the weeds and the flowers, embracing the garden as it is ... even as we water the flowers of Right Action and pull the weeds of Delusion. We have a choice what kind of reality we make.

This practice is neither nihilism nor "la la happy happy". HOWEVER, it is about a PEACE, GOODNESS, BALANCE, WISDOM AND COMPASSION that fully sweeps in and holds the "the drunk tank at the county jail, looking poverty and desperation and despair square on, both outside us and within" ... and the "lovely flowers and sunshine and pretty postcards and Hello Kitty".

But do not look in the wrong places, or by misguided means, for how to "awaken" to all that.

Our practice is not so much about "awakening to some fact to explain why ugliness exists in the world" (although the Buddha did identify so many of the causes in pointing to human greed, anger and ignorance). Neither is our practice about getting and staying in a place where all the ugliness drops away and stays away. Rather, this practice is about "awakening into our oneness with things as they are". One does not find out the "reason for existence" so much as to "completely settle into vibrant, living existence which was our home all along" ... and, thus, a "reason for existence" is found thereby, in being "At Peace and At One Piece" with this "sometimes peaceful, sometimes not" world (Zen practice --is-- actually a kind of existentialism not unlike that of Camus).

What are you searching for, Stephanie? What do you think it looks like when you find it? Think again ... and don't think again!

It is not about Angst or Joy ... but both. Neither neglect one or the other. I get as critical with folks who come here looking for a little "Oprah" self help and "Better Homes and Gardens" pleasantness ... as I do with those who can only see the struggle and strife as "real"... and who do not know how to be peaceful and pleasant and nice.

I am not against practice "with the dark side of life" ... but do not put down the light side, nor think anyone who merely milks cows and changes baby diapers cannot be manifesting the entire universe, all the Buddha's Wisdom and Compassion, right in that moment.

Bottom line ... if this practice fails to bring one "Peace, Happiness, Love and Security" in this life, amid both flowers and weeds, one is not practicing right, looking in the right place or ways for their so-called "Awakening".

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Great post Jundo... exactly what I needed to hear right now... gassho.

But I should say, from my own experiences on the path...

The peace of Zen is a peace without comfort.
The love of Zen is a love that stands alone, without companionship.
The happiness of Zen does not have the conditions of happiness.

This is not to say there is never comfort, companionship, or happy conditions...

It is to say that there is a "deeper" peace, love, and happiness than those based on conditions.

The love that uplifts me... is the love that arises in me when there is no one to give me a hug.

The peace and happiness that make my heart feel as wide as the world happen in the midst of ugliness and pain.

There is something about being in Jersey City... this place I hate... this place that is so easy to hate... that is so deeply spiritual for me. So freeing. To know that there is a peace that lives here... that lives in my heart while I am here... that I can let go of the things I wanted most... I can't describe it. It is the most breathtaking thing in the world, the most life-affirming. I feel like a queen sitting here on top of my garbage pile... I am queen of my garbage pile, and I can see the whole fucking enchilada from the top of it, and it is good.

There is part of me that would much rather be in a filthy muckhole than the nicest mansion in the world. Because the happiness that happens here is so much stronger and purer. So free. I don't have to fret over any particular condition any more.

Keep in mind though... I am actively trying to get out of this muckhole... to somewhere nicer, with a more beautiful view, and more loved ones close by. I'm not a very good masochist.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

It might seem strange to compare our practice to making love and sex, cause that is usually the farthest thing associated with the Buddha ...

... but there really are some close parallels. Each is a practice realized in the doing,, for one does not merely talk "theoretically" or idealistically or "intellectually" about what is "love" and "making love", good love and bad love. One does not just dream about or philosophize about each from one's lonely room ...

Rather, one loves by loving ... makes love by making love.

Furthermore, each is pretty much what we make them into in our relationships with "the other" who/which is our partner in their doing.

Anyway, my point is that ... as in love relationships and making love ... if there is something "dark" about it, if someone is getting hurt, if anger and greed dominate, if it feels out of balanced or cheap or ugly ... well, one is probably not loving and making love right!

Love and making love should, generally, be loving, pleasant, healthful, balanced, warm, filled with beauty ... even fun! The partners should speak sweetly to each other most of the time (although honest and direct when things need to be said honestly).

What's more, a real love relationship should stay balanced and positive, strengthening and supportive ... in the face of both good times and bad, just as should "Zen Practice" in the face of good times and bad.

Nishijima Roshi describes Buddhism as, overall, a very optimistic and positive, healthful practice (despite the image some folks mistakenly hold about it because of all the focus on "death and Dukkha"). Nishijima Roshi is right.

Neither love or Zen practice should be Sartre's "No Exit" ... but rather, a path and doorway to healthful, positive, fruitful UNION with "the other" that is this world and the people in it. If it does not feel that way ... if it feels somehow black, negative, heavy, acid ... it probably is off key.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Originally Posted by Jundo

Neither love or Zen practice should be Sartre's "No Exit" ... but rather, a path and doorway to healthful, positive, fruitful UNION with "the other" that is this world and the people in it. If it does not feel that way ... if it feels somehow black, negative, heavy, acid ... it probably is off key.

If it feels right good and healthful ... nurturing, strengthening, positive, vibrant, etc. ... one is probably making love (and Zen practice) right.

Zen Practice is a big HUG to and from the world, life our own self ... with all their little faults and imperfections.

"Awakening" is awaking to a relationship with the "other" that allows that.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Great post Jundo... exactly what I needed to hear right now... gassho.

But I should say, from my own experiences on the path...

The peace of Zen is a peace without comfort.
The love of Zen is a love that stands alone, without companionship.
The happiness of Zen does not have the conditions of happiness.

This is not to say there is never comfort, companionship, or happy conditions...

It is to say that there is a "deeper" peace, love, and happiness than those based on conditions.

...I just want to know freedom.

Stephanie, for this moment, I just want to try to understand and ask for your help to do so.
I have been a soldier, a sailor, a community organizer in an organization which practiced "radical service" in some of Canada's most disadvantaged communities. I only mention this much to imply my life has had its share of "without comfort", "without companionship", and being separated from the causes of peace, love and happiness. Indeed I first came to Buddhism through meditation classes I took after my wife passed away after a long and brutal illness.
My practice brought me to a different place, though. It does not deny suffering, but neither does my practice place suffering on a pedestal. It does not insist others come to peace, love, happiness on my terms or claim to be a deeper understanding of anything; it does not have conditions. It only is, for me.
You want to know freedom. I would respond I feel it in my bones. When you say "Zen is", is it meant to suggest (for example) mine is not?
Is the "for me" meant to be understood in the "Zen is" statements above? Or is there some subtlety I am missing?
May all sentient beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May all sentient beings know happiness and never be separated from the causes of happiness.
...and may all here know freedom and never be separated from the causes freedom.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Originally Posted by Jundo

Nishijima Roshi describes Buddhism as, overall, a very optimistic and positive, healthful practice (despite the image some folks mistakenly hold about it because of all the focus on "death and Dukkha"). Nishijima Roshi is right.

Neither love or Zen practice should be Sartre's "No Exit" ... but rather, a path and doorway to healthful, positive, fruitful UNION with "the other" that is this world and the people in it. If it does not feel that way ... if it feels somehow black, negative, heavy, acid ... it probably is off key.

Zen Practice is a big HUG to and from the world, life, our own self ... with all their little faults and imperfections.

Zen Practice is for richer and poorer, sickness and health ...

"Awakening" is awaking to a relationship with the "other" that allows that.

That is my feeling on that.

Gassho and a Hug, Jundo

Thank you, Jundo, and gassho...

You are helping me see how my view is so powerfully shaped by my conditioning and personality... I'm sort of having a "duh" moment over here :wink:

But, again, I don't currently have a feeling of heaviness or what seems to me to be a bleak view of the world. I feel a great sense of optimism that life is good and that goodness is always there whether I'm getting what I want or not. That's the desolation I speak of... when external conditions are desolate, the heart can still be at ease... that when the wind has swept away all your stories and toys and things you wanted to happen... there is still joy.

Originally Posted by Don

Stephanie, for this moment, I just want to try to understand and ask for your help to do so.
I have been a soldier, a sailor, a community organizer in an organization which practiced "radical service" in some of Canada's most disadvantaged communities. I only mention this much to imply my life has had its share of "without comfort", "without companionship", and being separated from the causes of peace, love and happiness. Indeed I first came to Buddhism through meditation classes I took after my wife passed away after a long and brutal illness.
My practice brought me to a different place, though. It does not deny suffering, but neither does my practice place suffering on a pedestal. It does not insist others come to peace, love, happiness on my terms or claim to be a deeper understanding of anything; it does not have conditions. It only is, for me.
You want to know freedom. I would respond I feel it in my bones. When you say "Zen is", is it meant to suggest (for example) mine is not?
Is the "for me" meant to be understood in the "Zen is" statements above? Or is there some subtlety I am missing?
May all sentient beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May all sentient beings know happiness and never be separated from the causes of happiness.
...and may all here know freedom and never be separated from the causes freedom.

Gassho,

Don,

I appreciate your post, and your life, and your practice.

I ask you to understand and forgive my way of speaking sometimes... as I posted before, I get carried away by the poetry of words, or the power of thought (which, of course, gets me in trouble on the Zen path sometimes). So I will make some grandiose statement of "Zen is..." not intending to make some authoritative statement but it comes out sounding that way. I am just attempting to express my own experience and understanding... which, of course, is shaped and limited by my own conditioning.

And you are right... I have been reflecting a lot on the last few days how easily I begin to judge others, and their wisdom or lack thereof, when my ability to do so in reality is severely limited by my inability to know what another person's experience is like "from the inside." Now, some of my judgments are based on what I've learned from experiencing myself and think I see going on with others, and some may be more accurate than others... but at the end of the day, I can't really know with certainty what someone else understands, or knows, or not.

And for all that I've learned to let go of... I'm learning that I still need to work on being able to let go of my (sometimes very strong) opinions!

I don't think great suffering is necessary. I do think it can be a great catalyst. But even a tiny discomfort, a tiny question, or a tiny bit of dissonance can be a great catalyst for asking questions, taking up a practice, and waking up. I think people with more suffering might be more strongly motivated to wake up... but people can be motivated by all sorts of things. When I started on this path, I wasn't suffering much at all... I was just so full of questions and curiosity about the world and what it is all about.

The thing is, I'm not saying that to authentically practice we need to be in difficulty, poverty, or without companionship. What I'm saying is that (in my view) if the love we feel is dependent on another person returning that love, we have not yet discovered the love that Zen practice can open the door to, love without conditions. If our happiness is based on life conditions, it is a very shallow happiness.

There is a happiness, and a love, that can flourish even in the most desolate and loveless conditions. That is amazing to me, to be able to experience that. I'm not saying that only desolation and lovelessness are the ground of truth... not at all... but that the test of a practice is whether it can take root and function in any place or condition. If so, we have tapped into a freedom that we can find peace and feel love no matter where life takes us.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Yesterday I read the beginnning of the "Practice" thread and felt immediately that i ought to reply to it. I wrote a rather long rebuttal to much of what I felt was the the heavy place the conversation came from. When I completed my missive, I went over it for typos and after re-reading it, I promptly cancelled the entire thing. I strongly advise that in many cases we all take at least the time to do this, if not the practice to censure our own words.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Originally Posted by Kyrillos

Yesterday I read the beginnning of the "Practice" thread and felt immediately that i ought to reply to it. I wrote a rather long rebuttal to much of what I felt was the the heavy place the conversation came from. When I completed my missive, I went over it for typos and after re-reading it, I promptly cancelled the entire thing. I strongly advise that in many cases we all take at least the time to do this, if not the practice to censure our own words.

Well said sir.

Also, I noticed that Jundo offered hugs.. I'm beginning to think that his age has turned him into a grandmotherly old zen teacher. mwahahhah (just kidding :mrgreen: )

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Dear Stephanie,

It is challenging to express views in an electronic forum at times, we often are reminded. Similarly, understanding the words of the writer without seeing their face and mannerisms (it has also been previously commented) can be difficult. There is nothing to forgive, though. I respect your forthrightness, points of view and the fact that all I needed to do was ask when I was slow in understanding.
I am glad I asked. I thank you for answering. It was kind of you to do so, as were your comments.
I join the grandmotherly old Zen teacher in extending you a hug, namby-pamby that I am.
Gassho,
Don

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Posts are such insubstantial glimpses. It's the nature of this medium.

We're getting a snapshot with each post -- whether the small window of life the poster has chosen to share at the moment, or the frame of mind that person happens to be in as they type. Our minds want a complete picture, we begin to fill the gaps.

I was taken aback for a moment when the Practice thread took off. It's not difficult to see how the happy-joy all-roses-all-the-time attitude came through. How much easier would all this be if that glimpse was all there was?

Crumbling relationships, burning houses, dying family... not one of us is immune from the emotional effects or the wordly responsibilities in their wake (I've got some doozies that maybe I'll share someday). But in the end, it's all not unlike that pile of dishes in the sink. When our practice allows us to deal with the hard stuff and the easy stuff with the same amount of skill, we're onto something.

Drop assumptions, drop conditioning, drop the "should be" and the "could be" and the "if only" and you're left with reality. If that's just paying lip-service and parroting concepts you haven't thoroughly examined for yourself, that's troubling. If it's heartfelt, understood (an ongoing process), built on convictions and commitment, you're on the path. But that is something for each of us to explore within ourselves.

For my part, I don't believe one set of life experiences -- be they tilted toward the light or the dark -- is any more valid than another. In our practice, isn't the starting point just as irrelevant as the finish line?

I am deeply grateful for the way this discussion has evolved. Reading and re-reading (and canceling more than a few responses, like Kyrillos) has helped me solidify some things and deal with some issues within that I hadn't before.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Originally Posted by Peter

Crumbling relationships, burning houses, dying family... not one of us is immune from the emotional effects or the wordly responsibilities in their wake (I've got some doozies that maybe I'll share someday). But in the end, it's all not unlike that pile of dishes in the sink. When our practice allows us to deal with the hard stuff and the easy stuff with the same amount of skill, we're onto something.

Drop assumptions, drop conditioning, drop the "should be" and the "could be" and the "if only" and you're left with reality. If that's just paying lip-service and parroting concepts you haven't thoroughly examined for yourself, that's troubling. If it's heartfelt, understood (an ongoing process), built on convictions and commitment, you're on the path. But that is something for each of us to explore within ourselves.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Hi everyone!
Nine bows to each of you! these thread was highly needed these days (at least by me... but I think I'm not the only one :roll: ).
I've nothing "interesting" or fun to add... just a lot to thank!

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Sometimes we may appear very soft and passive in approach here. Sometimes ... too passive to some tastes.

But I think we are pretty "intense" and powerful in a way not always plain to the unsuspecting eye.

I often compare our style around here to the Ai-ki-do my wife practices (she is a 2nd Dan blackbelt, with a blackbelt in Karate too).

The attitude, at least in the style of Aikido she practices, is .. yielding yielding yielding then, even in combat, avoiding the direct attack in favor of something more effective. Yielding and "going with the flow" of life can actually make us STRONGER, not weaker ... like bamboo which bends and bounces back from any wind that would knock down a solid wall ...

It is flexible, soft and yielding, ... yet the real power of this practice is shown when there is a busted marriage, cancer diagnosis, etc. Then, we do our bamboo thing.

In the style of Ai-ki-do which my wife practices, instead of aggressive, head on attacking as in Karate ... there is mostly a yielding, bending, giving response to attack which lets the enemy flow right past us of his own inertial force. Both Karate and Ai-ki-do get the job done (by the way, my wife (1) first tries to make friends with the enemy, then (2) tries to run away, before (3) showing anything of her stuff. Much like Zen Master Caine of Kung Fu fame! 8) ). That is the way of Ai-ki-do.

Ai-ki-do is soft and yielding on the outside and in appearance ... but deadly when necessary because it yields and uses the attacker's force against himself. The enemy defeats himself or, better said, never gets a solid hold of us as he moves on by. I believe our way here is much the same.

I ask that we practice soft Ai-ki-do style in this Treeleaf "Dojo", not "in your face" Karate. Our way is "non-seeking". For that reason, it may not be a good "Dojo" to those who think they want an aggressive and "in your face" Karate attack ... for that is not what we practice here.

As with the bamboo ... we do not fight life as much as bend with it, yet we are resilient and firm in our place. We resist through allowing, turning, remaining tall and rebounding when the storm has blown past. We go with the cold and harsh wind, go with the overwhelming force that confronts us ... sickness, old age, death, divorce, what ever life tosses our way ... yet stand our ground, grow, live, rise upward.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Not that anyone should care what I am doing or not doing for that matter, but I wanted to say that I promise I didn't ignite these topics just to run away. I am reading, sitting, working, sitting, reading and have nothing but the utmost respect for all of you. Deepest gratitude.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Originally Posted by Don

"stems of bamboo
supple and strongly devout
holding leaves secure"

Good one, Jundo.
In Judo it is also said: "be strong enough to be gentle".

Gassho,

Thank you Jundo, and Don for these words.
Anyone with anger issues (like myself) can attest to these words, Though I never really thought of it like this I have shown myself numerous times that it is when I am at my weakest that I am least gentle, and I have severel holes in the house drywall to prove that point.
and thanks to all this has been a very good post.
Gassho ~D.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Originally Posted by Don

In Judo it is also said: "be strong enough to be gentle".

I used to fill bulk bins at a farmers' market. I would maneuver a cart, piled high with flours and snacks, around shoppers and aisles. When I tried to yank the cart around as quickly as I was trying to work, the cart would jerk around, catch on it's own wheels, and sometimes spill over. I would have to use a lot of strength to start pushing the cart as fast as I was making it go. At one point, I realized that the gentler I handled the cart, the easier it was. A gentle nudge was enough to get the momentum going fast enough to start rolling it with ease. I would only need to give it a little knock at the right time to make it turn, if I was paying attention to my speed and angle. I realized that objects, and people, will work much better for you if you are gentle.

Re: Of Angst and Awakening

Sorry for the necro posting but Old Man Jundo's () comments reminded me of a Chuang Tzu quote that has always been helpful for me. Maybe it will be helpful for someone down the road.

"This thing called the Way -- where does it exist?"
-- There's no place it doesn't exist.
"Come,you must be more specific!"
-- It is in the ant.
"As low a thing as that?"
-- It is in the grass.
"But that's lower still!"
-- It is in the tiles and shards.
"How can it be so low?"
--It is in the piss and shit.

if this practice fails to bring one "Peace, Happiness, Love and Security" in this life, amid both flowers and weeds, one is not practicing right, looking in the right place or ways for their so-called "Awakening".