Pastor Gets Caught Lying for Jesus

What’s wrong with killing babies? I see no problem with it. I have enough mouths to feed. I don’t get the argument and I am an atheist. Since I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe in anything characterized as good, bad / right, wrong. So, what’s the big deal?

At first I was shocked that anyone could say that. Then I realized that it must be a fundie in disguise, a sheep in wolves clothing. I wasn’t the only one — wintermute and Ty immediately called him out for “lying for Jesus.” They have good bullshit detectors.

So I did some digging, and I realized this deceiver was using a variety of names. At first he went under names like “grass,” “aatheist,” “apl,” and others. Here is an example of his initial comments:

It’s a rough world out there if you are not in fellowship with authentic Christians. It’s a very sweet fellowship where I am. Come join us!

Sorry for your past dealings with false believers and teachings….

Great thinkers and intellectuals have come to trust in Jesus and the Bible. I am trying to weigh everything to make a wise decision regarding Christianity. I hope others will join me….

The problem was, he wasn’t getting anywhere. Nobody was being convinced or converted. So he tried another tactic — impersonating atheists under different names to show how immoral and stupid they supposedly were. His first try was under “makeup”:

If a man wants to make a women his b****, so be it? So what if you don’t like it, what if I do?

If I want to do something, and my conscience is cool with it, then I can do it. If it’s feed a homeless person, so be it. If it’s kill my neighbor, so be it. I am not bound to any morals.

In a few hours, he went from apologizing for our past dealings with slimy lying Christians, to suggesting it’s okay to abuse women, kill neighbors, and slaughter children under the guise of atheism.

So I banned him. I found what he did to be disgusting. It would be like me pretending to me multiple Christians on a Christian blog, asserting there’s nothing wrong with raping women and killing children because God commands it in the Bible.

Who would do such a stupid thing?

It turns out, a pastor would. After some more digging, I was able to figure out the commenter’s identity: Pastor Chris Fox of Kendalls Baptist Church in New London, NC.

Way to lie for Jesus, pastor! I’m sure you make your congregation proud.

I confronted him about his deceitfulness. He apologized “for upsetting me,” but doesn’t acknowledge any wrongdoing. He said:

There were others who wanted to make comments and had ideas, and they simply wanted to share those in the forum; so for those remarks, my sincere apology. I would also suggest attention given to the name-calling and other profanities used in various posts.

I was trying to make a point from a different perspective, of which I hear quite often, regarding morality and where it is derived. There was a debate recently where some of the same questions were asked and were actually given an honest look and answer….

I am in no way a fundie or extremist. Like you I believe in thinking, searching, asking questions, and hearing others from outside my box. I thank you for your allowing various opinions and sides to share.

Isn’t it interesting that a pastor comes here to preach morality and salvation to us sinful atheists, but then lies about his identity numerous times in order to slander atheism — and even when caught, refuses to acknowledge he did anything wrong. He thinks the issue is censorship of ideas, when it it’s really disgust at his actions.

This site is open to people of all beliefs. John C can testify to that. But don’t lie and deceive to try and gain credibility for your ideas. It will backfire.

* * *

Update (4pm): Pastor Chris has sent me an email apologizing and said this has been a “lesson learned.” I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and have removed my ban. He is welcome to comment under his own identity.

Update (3/21): Chris is now commenting here under the nickname “CSF.” He has posted a formal apology:

I want to express to you how deeply sorry I am for coming on this site and making the remarks I did and violating my own faith. It was out of bounds. I allowed the “debater” part of me go too far. I messed up and I have come to ask for your forgiveness. Thank you for allowing me back on.

Chris, thank you for apologizing and admitting you were wrong. I really appreciate that. You took this the best way possible, and I admire that.

We all do stupid things. What’s important is we admit it and move on, like you have done. I hope you’ll stick around!

It would be nice to think that John C could process what you’ve said impartially. Unfortunately he seems to belong to that “school of self” which is convinced that his interpretations and understanding is only true reality. He is stuck in a circularity that continually affirms itself from within itself and protects itself from all outside influence.

Talking to John C is like talking to a virtual intelligence that cannot respond outside its programming. If you type in something it has not been programmed to deal with it ignores it, redirects it or tells you that is doesn’t understand the question.

It is also like talking to a politician with an agenda. Politicians never tell you that they don’t understand; they avoid the question.

And its like talking to a shock jock. They don’t tell you that they don’t understand; they tell you that you don’t understand.

So I conclude that John C is really a virtual shock jock politician with a religious agenda. Misquoting the Borg: Persistence is useless; you will not be assimilated.

John C

@Rosemary…

Somehow that last post you supposedy wrote to Janet I think was actually intended for me?? Ha. No dear my only malady, the only affliction from which I suffer is one of mad love and great joy having found the treasure in the field, I have promptly and fully “sold out” and entered into total bliss with my Lord.

The soul must be wholly wed and subject to His spirit within, this is the life of the ages, how it was in the book of beginnings. Faith, hope & love.

Life of the ages….

Janet Greene

@Rosemary – thank for this response about the robotic responses from John C. I find it personally frustrating to talk to a brick wall (no offence John, I find pretty much all christians to be like that, including my evangelical parents). The extent of the denial of reality and the brainwashing is incredible. I guess i have to think of it in terms of speaking with a partially-functioning robot or I’ll drive myself crazy. Thank “god” for an atheist online community like this one, with intelligent, ethical, and passionate atheists.

mark: If that is then how come you are always making statements such as god is love?

Also if your statement is true then how come you keep saying that good is good. Mark.

Gods Only Comic

There can be no separation of the the religious and the spiritual. Your cognitive dissonance as to the origins of your belief and the reality of life is astounding. Please read something other than novellas derived from “The Goat Herders Guide to the Universe”. Also, stop with the psilocybin mushrooms. Together these might help to regain a sense of reality and help with living for today instead of worrying about what tortures the sky daddy has in store for you.

Mogg

Wow. What a pity he felt the need to stoop to this kind of behaviour. Surely just asking questions about why atheists feel the need for a moral code would have got him further than trying to be provocative? And why can’t the mysterious other people who wanted to make comments just do so for themselves? At the very least, it would have been easy for him to make a point on behalf of another person, if they couldn’t for themselves, by saying that was exactly what he was doing. No need for a masquerade.

Not a surprise. When freethinkers are allowed to join the market of ideas without fear of reprisal the only resource of the believer is to hide in shame, shout loudly or… lie for Jesus.

Lisa S

Wow. It seems to me with Christians I’ve known (and have been) the biggest issue of atheism is the lack of a moral ground. And yet here is an example of a lack of a moral ground, from a Christian. Most atheists I’ve met are better christians than the Christians I’ve met. (I know that sounds weird…)

There are so many people that have real questions about what they believe in. What kind of point did he possibly think he could make by lying? To whom was he making this point, to the atheist or to the person questioning their beliefs?

I can only shake my head. I have to say I remember a pastor saying that we have to do whatever it takes to ‘save’ someone. And here’s a perfect example. Go against what the bible teaches in order to get someone to believe in it.

Note to future Christians: Stop trying to save us and start trying to just talk to us. We’re people. Just like you.

Really nice detective work, btw.

Somegreencat

I wonder what the christians that read this website think of a pastor doing this? I figure he felt he was justified in his scam, since he would probably see it as trying to save souls. I wonder if he ever used the comments he made as examples of how evil atheist are in his sermons.

Engelina Koberna

Some Christians have given christians a bad name, new evangelicals will in the future prefer to be called Jesus followers. All Jesus followers “do” remember that they were once non-believers at one point as well. The pastors lie does not shock at all. We all sin alike; believer or non-believer it’s all in the wanting to change our sinful ways– love and peace from the other camp.

Thanks for the post. The guy is clearly an unprincipled phony (a.k.a., “pastor”).

Even as a former seminarian and the son of a minister, I’ve reached the (admittedly uncomfortable) conclusion that intellectual integrity and inhabiting a pulpit are mostly incompatible.

Clergy members must (A) cling so strongly to their faith that they squeeze out doubts that would challenge it, or (B) dilute Christianity so much that their own congregations wouldn’t recognize it. (I know large numbers of pastors who wouldn’t dare share their personal theologies with their congregants out of fear of facing rebellion.) I suspect that most pastors engage in some elements of both strategies.

The Tale of The Emperor’s New Clothes comes to mind, but it’s hard to distinguish whether a pastor is the naked Emperor or the charlatan tailors who walked off with his money.

vorjack

There’s an article about Glen Jenvey over at Bartholomew’s Notes on Religion. He’s a brit who’s accused of posting messages on an Islamic webforum under a Muslim sounding pseudonym. The posts advocated targeting British Jews for attacks.

Jenvey then pointed to those posts and claimed to have uncovered an Islamic plot against British Jews. Those posts were then used in a front page Sun article, “”Islamic Terrorists Target UK Jews”. So it looks like Jenvey was planting evidence.

So, yeah, I wonder @Somegreencat is right, if Mr. Fox was planning to write a few sermons about those “amoral atheists” and use his own handiwork as evidence.

“wintermute and Ty immediately called him out for “lying for Jesus.”

@wintermute & @Ty: if we ever do get that UF get-together, your first round is on me.

latsot

“I was trying to make a point from a different perspective”

And he couldn’t have done this by – without posing as anyone – saying “Well, I’ve heard some people say…….”?

Talk about disingenuous.

“of which I hear quite often, regarding morality and where it is derived.”

The only place he’d have heard that is from another nutjob claiming it’s a common atheist view.

ddr

“There were others who wanted to make comments and had ideas, and they simply wanted to share those in the forum…”

Hey, here’s a question: If morality is only derived from the Bible, and atheists are immoral psychopaths because they’re not concerned about going to Hell, then why do Christians obey all those laws (at least as much as anyone else does) that don’t appear in the Bible? Why should any Christian consent to be told he has to be sober when he drives, or can’t practice law without a license? If God won’t punish them for these things, what right does Man have?

Why don’t we see Christians protesting all the laws that God doesn’t mention? I mean, obviously protesting the existence of cotton/poly blends and Red Lobster takes up a lot of their time, but still. You’d think their superior morals should be reflected in the law for everyone else, right?

Nothing new or surprising. Having tracked the Creationism issue for a few years, I am thoroughly familiar with the dishonesty used combat the alleged moral decay of evolution. There is one reviewer on Amazon who consistently downrates pro-evolution books, and displays his lack of scientific knowledge in the process. His handle is “The Professor.” The irony is strong with this crowd.

miller

yeah, like it’s new pastors lie. back in the day, the pastor of my church and bible college was having an affair with his secretary (who was a prof’s wife). they all lie to make whatever they want to work for them.

Pip

Have you considered sending press releases to the news outlets closest to where this guy’s church is? His parishioners might be interested to learn what he is doing.

It seems to me, that it is not atheists who have moral issues. Clearly it’s Christians. Their actions in your comments convince me everyday that Christianity is ****NOT**** where I’d like to be.

RobotzAreAwesome

Oh man, best post ever! I hope this gets picked up by other sites.

Rynoos

I am a troller, christian, and a pastor. I have only commented a couple of times here, but I felt like i needed to comment on this post.

I appreciate Daniel, calling a spade a spade. Accountability is the key to to honest discussion and there is no way to justify lying about who you are.

I have been a pastor for 12 years now. I am just as much imperfect as I was 13 years ago. Hopefully, I am a little wiser, a little less dogmatic, and a little less irrational, though I do have my moments. The truth of the matter is that if you are searching for all the imperfect examples of christians, then there is a long, long list (that is figurative and not an actual list) of people that I could point you to who a lot have been pastors themselves.

I think Daniel has every right to make a post like this one and should when someone is an idiot like that, but what I most appreciate about this blog is when you guys really tackle the hard issues of life and discuss openly. It really is challenging and thought provoking and it has changed my perspective on atheists.

Anyways, from a christian perspective, the pastor was wrong and stupid, no excuses. I hope he learns from his mistakes as I hope we all do.

For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

trj

What is required to become a pastor in the US? Can anyone call themselves a pastor, or is some form of education required?

Certainly the finer aspects of theology and philosophy seem to have passed mr Fox by. I wasn’t terribly impressed with his posts under various pseudonyms, either. It’s a bit depressing that a guy like that is a moral and spiritual example to others.

Roger

Wow. That’s some excellent detective work, Daniel. Of course did Pastor Lyin’ for Jesus not think that his nonsense would be found out? From his bio:

“Pastor Chris enjoys sports, outdoors, reading, and eating (don’t all Baptist preachers?). His passions are his relationship with Jesus Christ, his family, and equipping the church to be disciples and do “disciple things.”

They forgot to add, “…trolling the Internet posing as an atheist as a tool of evangelism.”

This is a private forum owned by a private individual. If Daniel wishes to censor all opinions which differ from his own, then he has that right. The right to free speech is not a right to a free audience.

I’ve posted a few times on YEC’ers blogs, only to have my comments disappear for the sin of containing actual evidence that they can’t answer, for example. It’s intellectually dishonest, especially if they’re claiming that there is no such evidence. But I certainly don’t think I have a right to be heard on their blog. Which is why I don’t tend to spend much time in such places these days, as pro-evolution / pro-atheism sites are far less likely to censor opposing viewpoints, so you get actual discussion.

But, really. Would Pastor Chris Fox allow someone to get behind his pulpit and speak to his church about how great atheism is, and how Christians can’t possibly be moral? No? Then he’s surely got no right to complain about other people doing exactly the same thing, has he?

That being said, I’d like to think Daniel for his forbearance and openness in dealing with religious posters. This place would be a lot less fun without the several intelligent, polite Christians who are capable of understanding that atheists are people too.

And, yes. It would be less fun without John C, too. He’s not intelligent or polite, but he is funny. Like if you put clown makeup on a retarded baby.

Jeff

Hope someone doesn’t print out this page and mail it to his congregation.

“I was trying to make a point from a different perspective, of which I hear quite often, regarding morality and where it is derived.”

Riiight. I’m sure this topic comes up a lot as he sits on the front porch, sipping tea with all his baby-killing atheist friends.

And when you call him out on lying, he’s quick to point out that others were swearing (omgwtfbbq).

If I were religious, I don’t know that I would feel very comfortable telling my sins to a guy who’s going to use them to throw me under the bus the second he gets in the hotseat.

claidheamh mor

Scumbags and assholes are bad enough.

But I’m getting a gag reflex at seeing a scumbag asshole smiling and posing with his spawn and offspring, next to all those other people putting on their holy smiles.

On a website for a church.

Setting an example for Jesus!

He is winning souls for Christ. I feel the pull to turn to Christ… what a shining beacon this pastor must be, exemplifying the Lord Jesus Christ’s lying, mendacious, deceitful, hypocritical, fraudulent, crooked, shifty, underhanded, two-faced nature.

I think I’m turning Christian… baby, I’m right there!

Rynoos

I agree this was deliberate and not an accidental happening of key punching (which has a great ID vs. evolution undertone…lol), but I disagree with the idea that even something deliberate can’t be a mistake. Deliberate doesn’t excuse the crime, but surely we can admit any crime can be a mistake. If we didn’t believe that then we shouldn’t have jails and just kill em all. Which I do not condone. Mistakes happen in all forms.

“Doctor” Cyrus I. Schofield of the “Schofield Reference Bible” never attended college. He lied on his resume and put in the front of his bible. He also co-founded Dallas Theological Seminary. Christian leaders of the time knew he was a fraud and did not seem to care. His bible is still the bible of note for many fundies. It is because to religious people, faith is more important then facts.
As a child I was lied to, I was told if I did not drink alcohol, do drugs or have premarital sex and would have a long and happy life. They would often quote Joshua 1:8.
I followed this advice. Instead I have had health problems most of my life. When I talk to my parents or other adults from my Christian past, they told me they never made those promises.

Unfortunately, people like this have highly compartmentalized minds. It prevents them from ever being able to see the hypocrisy in what they say, do, believe, etc. Trying to communicate this to the person is essentially like trying to explain linear algebra to parrot; a pointless exercise.

Arena

Gee, if only our atheist scriptures didn’t contain lines that promoted such activities…oh wait, there are no scriptures. Also, it made me wonder….i’ve seen some fairly interesting things when it comes to religion.

Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”

There was also a verse on deporting a man who slept with a woman while she had her period, but i couldn’t find which text it came from. Point is…nobody can call an atheist immortal when you base your life out of a book that contains things like this. (and yes, i know not all religions go off the bible)

Linus bern

Perhaps he assumes all atheists really want to talk about how they love baby killing, but they are too embarrassed by their belief, and just needed someone get the ball rolling so they can all jump in. Kind of like how racists will pretend they are okay with blacks until someone says something racist and they all relax and get in on it.

The problem is that his portrayal of atheists is such an absurd caricature that half-way through the second line it was perfectly obvious that this was a troll.

These theists have got to be much trickier if they are going to fool us into revealing our secret love of baby killing.

Aaron Baker

I agree that this is utterly disgusting. Thanks for calling Fox on this piece of sliminess.

Wow. That was fast. I think there is a cut-and-paste response for all the emails he’s getting. Here is the reply to the email I sent seconds ago….

Let me share that when I recently came across the UF website, I browsed through the posts and wanted to share ideas and give opinions. I am in no way a fundie or anti-atheist/non-believing. But, I got wrapped up in some of the topics and posts and wanted to share, and I allowed it to step over the line. I did not opine to antagonize or “win souls” – in fact, I am quite moderate in my beliefs. I didn’t personally attack anyone. I don’t characterize all atheists as immoral or amoral. In fact, there are believers who do immoral things. I was indeed hypocritical. My intentions were not to be deceiving. I wanted to ask questions that would allow others to think and bring out their thoughts. I am deeply sorry for my actions. As I have pondered and prayed over the past few days, it was not the right way. It may be my naivete, but I wanted to speak from my experience with people of all walks of life and actual thoughts and conversations I have had. I never intended the thoughts to characterize all atheists/non-believers. In conversations with my atheist/non-believing friends, we share openly and candidly and give permission to speak bluntly about things, often using hypotheticals and hyberbole. I see that some of the posts have characterized me as a fundie and extreme, an idiot, and worse, but I am anything but. I don’t know what your beliefs are, but please don’t let this alone form an opinion about my character or heart. I am truly sorry and am learning from this.

Kindest regards,

Chris

Read from it what you will. But the behavior is reprehensible since he misrepresented himself.

DuckPhup

At his web site, on the home page, Pastor Chris says…

“Our society today has seen the inauthentic side to Christianity. The problem the world has with Christians is not that we don’t have it all together. It’s that we pretend like we do. Living the authentic life is simply being genuine and real, seeking to be like Jesus, who was authentic in His love, compassion, and service. Let’s discover how to be authentic and show our community and world we are who we are because of who He is and what He has done!”

Kind of ironic, eh?

anti-supernaturalist

. . . So – – great job on outing the lying xian con.

** Take this, and eat . . .

Of course xian communion (aka mass) is nothing but a dim memory of killing and eating god in the raw, tearing apart a living animal or a human, including kings — portrayed in its disgusting horror by Euripides in his play, The Bacchae. (400 years BCE)

Killing and eating children was a charge that pagans used against xians — just what were those secretive Jesus worshipers during their “love feasts.” (Why . . . indiscriminate sex, semen eating, and cannibalism.)

When xians decided that a Jewish monopoly on reading/writing/lawyering & money lending just had to end — strange to tell Jews got charged with killing xian babies and eating them.

Typical lying xian leader, this not so sly Fox demonstrates a total lack of creativity. Slobs like this guy really do feed on others by taking their money fraudulently and spewing out vile beliefs into a world which has deserved far better for over 2,000 years.

Crush the infamy!

Slaughter

“If a man wants to make a women his b****, so be it? So what if you don’t like it, what if I do?”

I emailed him, his church, and the editors of two of his local newspapers to tell him how disappointed I was in him…

Janet Greene

As a former evang xtian, I think I might know the thinking that led to this. Xtians think that everyone but them are bound for HELL. That’s eternal damnation, knashing of teeth, real uncool stuff. So by their logic, any means is acceptable to bring people to the lord. They would equate it to tackling someone about to cross the street when there is a mac truck coming. This is one of the fundamental (no pun intended) problems with xtianity. It is about the result, not the journey. In reality, all we have is the journey – none of us really know “truth”. It’s only the religeos that claim to know. My parents are evang xtians – and I still can’t get an answer from them as to WHY they believe the bible. It’s hard for me to grasp why anyone would belief this tripe (now that I’m a safe distance away!) but I do understand, from that perspective, why this guy did what he did. Remember, christians have “fought” for jay-sus for years. They even tortured and burned thousands of women for the lord (aka witch burnings). Why is everyone so surprised that a christian would do this? I am impressed with your ability to expose him though!!!! Kudos.

Fox’s apology smacks of insincerity. I see no remorse there, only fear that his congregation might get wind of his dishonesty.

Alexis

Until an official UF meet up gets underway, I would suggest http://www.drinkingskeptically.org/ and if there isn’t one in your area yet…plan one and get it registered! I’ve met a lot of nice skeptics through the Pittsburgh group.

Pastor Fox made it onto Pharyngula! Looks like he’s becoming his own sensation. LOL

Alexis

I have heard the same quote attributed to Martin Luther and to Mohamed: A lie in the service of god/allah is no lie.

Janet Greene

I just attempted to email this pastor the following – it bounced back. He must have changed his email address. In case he’s looking on this site, here’s my mesage to you:

I am the daughter of an evangelical pastor and former christian. I became an atheist around age 40. It was a long journey of seeking truth (with an open mind) and now I finally realize the harm of religion; the absurdity and atrocities in the bible. I have far more love to give now that I am not distracted by prayer meetings, church, or guilt. I use that time and energy to help others and enjoy life. I associate with other atheists who live a similarly moral, ethical life.

I am horrified and offended by what you did on the “unreasonable faith” site. You posed as atheists and tried to make it appear as though atheists were cruel and immoral. You lied; you attempted to deceive us – deliberately. This is unethical by anyone’s standards. It does not surprise me, however. I have, unforturnately, often found that christians have lower morals than atheists. Did you know that there are few atheists in prison? and that most people in the prison system believe in christianity? Did you know that “red” states have more crime than “blue” states? Did you know that almost ALL serial killers come from christian homes? Did you know that secular societies such as Sweden have more equality, better quality of life, less crime, etc?

I guess it’s true that you shall know a tree by its fruit.

Janet Greene

Sorry, my booboo. I had sent the “pastor’s email” to the wrong address – don’t know if this one will bounce.

Allow me to be a voice of moderation here. Before we ruin this guys life by making him some kind of national poster boy for dishonesty, let’s take a breath.

What he did was wrong, and Daniel was absolutely right to call him on it here, but do we really need to bombard his email and tell his congregation about it? Do we really need to write to local newpapers about it? Should the guy’s reputation take a big beating over some on line sleight of hand?

Besides, I’m kind of encouraged by the tone of the email some people got in response. Seems like he might have realized the error of his ways.

Personally I wouldn’t mind it if people could look at the UF community and say we were able to forgive and forget.

Bystander, non-believer.

The thing that makes me wonder and think; It’s really hard for me imagine someone, let’s take the wifebeater example, to visit these kinda sites. The conversations here usually are quite intellectual and usually deep puzzlings of a belief system and the needing of it or not. So, for a person to first think “Gee whiz, I think I’ll beat my wife at this minute” and the next thought would be “And go explain it to a net blog about these things that it’s alright to do it since I have no moral!” – do christians really believe that we are kinda persons? Why? Have they proof? Other than “Well umm it’s _of course_ common sense that if they don’t believe in Jesus and do the things that the bible says, that they’ll beat up wives and rape children and what-nots”. Where in the world does this idealistic imagination come from?? Do they do like charts and go ask every wifebeater that comes into universal knowledge “Are you christian?” ( and does the second question go “No, but are you a true christian?”) ?
Just wondering….

Here is the crazy thing about this whole “atheists have no morals” argument. From what I gather, their point is if one does not believe in a god or a heaven and hell, then one is free to do all sorts of horrible things because they will never be punished. Yet they never seem to realize what such a theory says about them, mainly the only reason they don’t do horrible things is because they are afraid of being punished. They don’t realize, as I and I imagine everyone else here does, say to themselves, “I wont do (enter bad thing here) because it may hurt someone, or its not the way I would want to be treated, etc.” In essence, these are the people that have no morals as the only way they will behave is because they are afraid of getting caught and being punished. To me that’s far worse. If you need a carrot on a stick to be a decent person, then you are most certainly, in your core, NOT a decent person.

KM

“Like you I believe in thinking, searching, asking questions, and hearing others from outside my box.”

Pastor Chris sent me a followup email apologizing and has said this has been a “lesson learned.” I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and have removed my ban. He is welcome to comment under his own identity.

Daniel. I have to say, the strange thing is (and please take this in the way it is intended)… you are more “Christian” in your actions than most of the “Christians” that I know. As a termed “liberal” Anglo-Catholic priest, I’ve seen many. :) I suppose what I mean to say is by holding him accountable, and giving him the benefit of the doubt to return, you have proven moral and ethical in my humble opinion. :) Keep up the good work!
Thanks again. Rt Rev. Robert D. Hall, Texas

DarkMatter

I hope he won’t take it on his wife and children in the aftermath. I hope he will be ok.

misanthropope

you can hardly fault a priest for lying. as bertrand russell demonstrated so elegantly (“…therefore i am the pope”), once you prove one false thing true, you can justify any statement.

the flaming shrubbery speaks to me, therefore war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.

Janet Greene

Thanks for the update, Daniel – about the apology. Maybe I’m not as moral as you, but I can’t help thinking that he may have apologized just to avoid publicity about his actions. Someone that duplicitous cannot be trusted.

Mojo

It’s fascinating that this guy would pose as an atheist. Matthew 10:33 says, “But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.” If his purporting to be an atheist wasn’t an act of denying god before men, I don’t know what it was.

He was also bearing false witness, it would seem to me, though perhaps he doesn’t consider atheists his neighbors, so he he could probably rationalize that he wasn’t bearing false witness against a neighbor.

Ru

Organized religion has an agenda,always has and always will so this is really not that much of surprise when you think about it. The unfortunate fact is that this is not an isolated incident,I have come across this sort of fundamentalism before many times but in retrospect this is minor in comparison.
Christianity 101,”love thy neighbor”,seems to be a case of love thy neighbor unless ones neighbor thinks differently than you, then all bets are off.It would be a terrible generalization to say all Christians think this way because that is simply not true,I still believe in ones individualism and ability to think for ones self,but it’s this kind of religious intolerance that keeps the human race divided.Love thy neighbor because its the right thing to do.

Janelle

I’d like to comment on part of the pastor’s reply, “I was trying to make a point from a different perspective, of which I hear quite often, regarding morality and where it is derived.”

The pastor’s atheist impersonations were meant to suggest that if you don’t believe in God then you have no reasons to behave morally, i.e. morality comes from religious belief.

We all clearly reject this thinking, but I’d like to suggest a better answer.

Morality is an evolved trait. Humans are social creatures, as we are physically weak but highly intelligent. As such, a tribe of humans can band together for strength in numbers, but humans who wander off by themselves get quickly picked off by predators.

Because of this, we have evolved to interact well with others. We crave social contact, we thrive when included in social groups and we deteriorate when isolated. Those who showed anti-social behaviors found themselves banished from the tribe and thus isolated, and they did not survive. Those who showed characteristics that were advantageous to living in close proximity to others, would survive and thrive in a tribe, and thus got to pass on their genes to future generations.

Traits like empathy, concern for the well-being of others, etc, were essential for living in social groups. An every-man-for-himself approach quickly makes everyone dead, or at least as far away from each other as possible, and thus dead soon enough.

So, morality is an evolved characteristic enabling humans to band together in social groups and thus survive. Since atheists evolved in the exact same way that christians did, our moral instincts and benevolent traits are every bit as strong as any christian’s.

I admit that I write on poe blogs; the difference is that the owners of the blogs know that I am “in on the joke”; in fact one has made me a contributor.

But some of those who surf in often think that I am serious.

Hmmm…this is making me think about my actions.

cousinavi

For clarity’s sake, I’m about as intolerant and loud vis theists as anyone, up to and including Hitchens (who, being a limp noodle, would stop short of giving Dinesh D’Souza a good smack in the skull)…
Nevertheless, while I can’t say that secular humanists have never impersonated believers on any X-tian blog in order to blather some sarcasm (I spend no time on X-tian blogs), I CAN say this:
There have been more than plenty examples of tongue-in-cheek posts, oozing satire and dripping vicious sarcasm, spent in the guise of Great and Eternal Jebus.

Not that I don’t see the one as simply more foolishness and the other as well-aimed riposte…just sayin’…if you turn the tables, what this guy did under twisted sock puppetry is not without counterweight – yin and yang, n’est pas? (Debates of style and quality…or, you know, Truth Value…notwithstanding).

As one of the so-called “nutty godless retards” I find it hilarious that a Pastor would find it necessary to go on an atheist blog and pretend to be an atheist in order to convert atheists.

Couldn’t he have been out helping the poor or doing something better with his time than making an idiot out of himself trying to change minds in the dumbest way possible?

Also, I totally might eat some babies tonight. Or help at the soup kitchen. It’s hard to tell since I have no morals.

CSF

Daniel, and Fellow Commenters,

I want to express to you how deeply sorry I am for coming on this site and making the remarks I did and violating my own faith. It was out of bounds. I allowed the “debater” part of me go too far. I messed up and I have come to ask for your forgiveness. Thank you for allowing me back on.

I know some of you think that I am this horrible, two-faced, hypocrite and hates atheists and others not like myself. That couldn’t be any further from the truth. I genuinely love people. Those who know me best know that I do not slander or hate anyone, but am open-minded and compassionate. I am human and make mistakes. I saw I what I thought was mischaracterization of Christians and I allowed myself to get sucked in, to my own demise. I acted a fool.

I received some pretty nasty emails – I deserved them. I also received some sympathetic emails from non-theists and others. Thank you.

I am talking openly to some of you via email and invite and welcome that to anyone. I do believe strongly and passionately in my faith (and am gentle and respectful) and do my best to set the example and model for my family, friends, and congregation. This was not the good example.

I hope I can restore my example and witness. I am open to sharing why I said on some of the posts. I am not excusing my behavior, but willing to dialogue further.

i do have a question:
Why do you think that atheists have no morals simply because they don’t have a belief in a god? we still have to conform to the rules of society. it’s not like we can murder and then show up in court and just say “Well, I don’t believe that I’ll be punished for eternity by a god that says murder is bad.” It doesn’t matter if you believe in god, they will still put your ass in jail.

Atheist

Let’s all go run around and eat babies while burning cats with a flamethrower because we don’t believe in God.

CSF

xy:

Thank you for the opportunity to respond. I totally agree that if you do the crime, you do the time. My intention in the post (and it was extreme I know) was to say that if someone (not necessarily an atheist) were to say, “Hey I have no problem with murder or stealing, etc,” how would you respond? In other words, “morally I am nuetral, I don’t believe in it, but if someone else does, so what?” Where, other than that society’s laws, would the moral come from and it be absolutely true for all of us? Would there ever be a time when stealing (I’ll use the lesser of the evils) would be moral? Why/Why not? You and I know that it is wrong. You have based your morals on something(s) and so have I? That’s where was coming from. I know that my faith has some extremism and my goal is to best reflect Christ. I goofed on here. I hope to shed better light. Email me for more dialogue. Thanks.

CSF

I actually did set a cat on fire when I was younger (as a child). Thankfully there was a creek nearby – first and only time I have seen a cat hit the water. : )

Darby

I actually did set a cat on fire when I was younger (as a child).

You do know that that is a common trait among sociopaths and serial killers right? In fact, childhood acts of amoral cruelty to animals is about the only common thread between all of them. This isn’t surprising coming from a person such as you have proven yourself to be.
You are deeply disgusting and utterly lacking in basic human decency or morality.

If you were a healthy human being, the question of where morality comes from wouldn’t even need to arise, you would have a clear and instinctive understanding of it. That’s part and parcel of being a normal healthy human being. The fact that morals are a completely foreign concept to you as you have proven, is a clear and obvious sign that you are a deeply disturbed individual who most likely poses a grave threat to anybody around you.

. I allowed the “debater” part of me go too far

And here is how we know for a fact that your apology is nothing but yet another calmly calculated act of dishonesty on your part.

Nothing in what you did had anything to do with debate. The fact that you are trying to sell such an obvious lie, is again, quite telling about your character, or complete lack thereof.
All you were doing was projecting your own complete lack of understanding of ethics, morality, and basic human decency.

Seriously, you have a lot of growing up to even reach the point where you wouldn’t be an embarrassment if you were a very small child. The fact that you’ve reached this age without developing even the rudiments of a moral compass is a very strong sign that you are not capable of ever understanding how moral, ethical, healthy brains work.

I pity you, but far more so I pity any poor victim under your power, and I pity anybody stupid enough to not realize what a monster you are.

CSF

When I say “my faith” I am referring to Christianity and to the extreme things that some do that border hate. I am not in that category and want to better reflect the true teachings of Christ.

John C

@ Pastor Fox:

Remember this…All things work for the good to them that love God…even this if you allow it to! Romans 8:28 is more than a cliche. And Genesis 50:20…what they meant for bad, God meant for good. We need 50/20 vision here my imperfect friend!! Cuz I am imperfect too and always in need of great measures of grace which Pappa is so fond of dispensing toward those of us who believe. Go forward, move on past this my friend cuz Love wins.

JC

CSF

xy:

Let me also respond to the first part of your question. I truly do not believe that all atheists do not have morals. I believe that almost everybody does. My intention was to gather from whence they come and who determines them? Yes, the laws of this country are great and I am thankful to be living here than in countires where I could be imprisoned for even speaking my mind. Thanks.

gina94984

i am amazed that there are grown-up adults in this world that think that the only people with consciences are those with a religious affiliation. i’m even more amazed that so-called christians actually say and teach that idea to their most impressionable members. i knew the difference between right and wrong long before i ever got to catechism at age six. people who say they don’t are making excuses for doing what they feel like and not what they already know is wrong, but tempting (for whatever reason it may be). a smack upside the head to pastor jim!

gina94984

and to people who don’t use their best judgement in their lives.

CSF

Bill,

Thank you for your acceptance. What I meant by that was that I know many many Christians who exemplify love (not perfection) and grace, and give so much of their time, money, and talents to the church. They are genuine. They do make mistakes. True Christians will be hypocritical at times, but are not “hypocrites.” What I mean by that is to be a hypocrite means you are habitually “playing face” and wearing the mask and play-acting. Jesus called these out and basically said they were not true believers. I am hypocritical at times, but Itry to serve my God the best I can.

There were comments on various posts just putting Christians down and calling us names and using all kinds of names. This is my first time commenting on a blog. I was saying to myself: “I know there are some bad apples out there, but i know too many who shine with love and grace.” Irony of ironies, I suck myself in.

“Christian” is a funny word. I live in a county where 95 % of the people are *cough* “Christian.” And by that I mean that if you were brought up in a church, or your parents were Christian, that makes you a Christian. But that’s far from it. So, many people (especially atheists and other religious faiths) see the hypocricy of many so-called Christians (who really are not) and that fortifies in their mind – “Oh this is what a Christian is about.” There really are masses of Christians and great churches where people are accepted for who they are, no matter what background, clothing they wear, or anything. I believe that.

So, that sums up my thoughts. Thanks!

LRA

To CSF-

What is the precise definition of a True Believer (TM)?

Who in the in-group and who is out? When, how, and by whom was this determined?

Sock

@CSF

Like others have said. Don’t get sucked in and give into frustration, that almost always ends badly. Like me, I gave into frustration and ran into a pair of Philosophy majors here. I assumed they were Godbotting, and I was quickly in over my head. :P

At the worst, you can end up banned (like you were), and at the best, you can end up embarrassed (like I was).

In the end, I hope you do stick around. One of the greatest things I like about this blog is the Christian element. Though, admittedly, most of that element is coming from ex-Christians, but I still like to see well thought out comments from those who still believe.

Sadly, I think one of the only believers who comments regularly is JC. And man, I just… I can’t read that anymore. I always gloss over his comments. :P

I’m not surprised something like this has happened. It seems that many christians have the attitude, “it’s OK to break the last 7 commandments if it means enforcing the first 3”.

I’ve read the pastor’s apology. I think it would have more meaning if he confessed to the people in his church and be honest about what he has learned. He perpetuated the negative and undeserved stereotype of Atheists. If he were really sorry, he would try to undo the damage and try to spread a more accurate picture of what we are.

As for the origins of morality, morality appears in nature. Even monkeys know when something is not fair. Morality is a society’s way of getting along for mutual benefit. It’s not handed down from a deity who’s allowed to ignore it at will. Morality comes out of the necessity of being in a group.

elflocko

PWND…

Kip

It’s called satire, I use it all the time. I habitually argue through the ridiculousness of the other person’s belief. Of course, it’s a thin line between satire and strawmen, and this guy definitely crossed it. Not on purpose, he just has a typical misunderstanding that yes, it is possible to have “ethics” without getting them from a book.

Daniel – thanks for exposing this impostor for what he is and thanks for taking the time to put up this website. What you are doing is bigger than you think “you are a soldier in a war that never ends…” I commend you and expect you will see a large following as time goes on.

In the world of Quantum Physics, the mere fact of observation changes the outcome. Regardless of your personal theology or science your readers are recognizing that you have done well to fight a person’s darkness.

Because no person, (even Pastors) have a corner on the market of sin, I think sometimes in this whacked out world, forgiveness seems even more complicated than sin is. Therein likes somewhat of the miracle.

As youth, many of us pointed and laughed.

Perhaps it is a higher challenge to not point, and love.

What then is the lesser of these: being the pointee or the pointer?

Like it or not, you are following the Light.

troubador

I am certainly not a fan of deceit in any form, and believe it to be a shame that a pastor would conduct himself in such a fashion, unfortunately it seems to be a path Christians take more often than not.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
–Mohandas Gandhi

davidstamaria

disturbing. and yeah, nice detective work.

boywidacoin

It’s a shame when a Christian does that. We oughta be careful in our conversations and testimonies but it doesn’t justify anything about atheism. You’re still gonna get it someday and I promise you, your mouths will be stopped.

FSMdude

Hey guys, I’ve sent an e-mail to this guy and here’s his repsonse:

Mr. Renard,

Thank you for your honesty. I am deeply sorry for my actions. The post below was intended not characterize all atheists or non-believing, but was related to the question or morals and if not having morals was okay. Looking back at it, it did not come across the way I intended to. I do not have any ill-will towards atheists.

I have sent a statement that expresses my apology:

Let me share that when I recently came across the UF website, I browsed through the posts and wanted to share ideas and give opinions. I am in no way a fundamentalist or anti-atheist/non-believing. But, I got wrapped up in some of the topics and posts and wanted to share, and I allowed it to step over the line. I did not opine to antagonize or “win souls” – in fact, I am quite moderate in my beliefs. I didn’t personally attack anyone. I don’t characterize all atheists as immoral or amoral. In fact, there are believers who do immoral things. I was indeed hypocritical. My intentions were not to be deceiving. I wanted to ask questions that would allow others to think and bring out their thoughts. I am deeply sorry for my actions. As I have pondered and prayed over the past few days, it was not the right way. It may be my naivete, but I wanted to speak from my experience with people of all walks of life and actual thoughts and conversations I have had. I never intended the thoughts to characterize all atheists/non-believers. In conversations with my atheist/non-believing friends, we share openly and candidly and give permission to speak bluntly about things, often using hypotheticals and hyberbole. I see that some of the posts have characterized me as a fundie and extreme, an idiot, and worse, but I am anything but. I don’t know what your beliefs are, but please don’t let this alone form an opinion about my character or heart. I am truly sorry.

Kindest regards,

Chris

Sock

Starting a new thread for this, still.

@JC

I will ignore the first point of your last post, since God’s demeanor clearly changes from OT -> NT, and thus your statement that he is “changeless” is ignorant at best.

So, are you saying that the OT is symbolic, and that you aren’t supposed to take (as much of) it to heart? At least in the written word? That the NT is where you’re -really- supposed to get God’s message?

If so, then why did God write the OT how many thousands of years BEFORE the NT? Did he just not care for all those hundreds of generations that came before Christ? Not that I think you’d ever say “we can’t know God’s will”, cause you sure seem to say quite the opposite a lot, BUT! I -am- asking why -you- think there was this separation, and why he doomed so many people before the NT to toil and sorrow.

Also, what verses point at Christ, and why have the greatest Jewish Rabbi’s completely missed that in their devoted studies OF Yahweh’s words, but you’ve managed to find them?

Daniel, isn’t it a bit old school for you to point out hypocrisy in the church? We all know it exists, it exists because you are dealing with… people… flawed individuals

this is the reason my son left the church in the first place so I don’t discount its power to persuade, but come on, it has been in the church body forever, look at Judas.

What people that do things like this do, is put a blanket over all Christians (or Atheists) saying that’s who we are. I would say he doesn’t speak for you or your beliefs any more than he speaks for me and mine.

I saw this terrible video of this pastor last week railing against this church in SC. I had just come from a leadership conference at this church in SC where I know several of the pastors, and this moron our in AZ just bashes this church from the pulpit. I would like to rip this guys tongue out… he doesn’t speak for me, my religion, or my faith, and he certainly doesn’t follow the scriptures that speak about not creating division within the church… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S99oKuZrxcI

This guy doesn’t speak for me any more than Pastor Chris Fox does (by the way, enjoy the video, that’s a bonus for you, haha).

It does look as if Chris Fox now has some regret for doing this in this way, so I am guessing next time he won’t handle this in the same manner, but he does not speak for me. Good piece Daniel.

Not nice to you

Mr. Fox,
I am just wondering after all your experience in dealing with sinners and working with the church and everything it has to offer if you think of your new found world-wide fame as the speaker who shamed the entire world Christian community by spreading disgusting lies for jesus in a deceitful and disgusting smear campaign against all people, all human beings of every nation in the world who according to God are all his children, if after all of this you do not feel like your mind is fit for anything other than assisting you in the service of cleaning the toilets of atheists.

You obviously DO need a code-book to keep your moral compass pointing away from your own dirtbag intentions but you clearly need a more concise and clearly written book than the bible!! Your own personal weakness does not represent the fabric of humanity, this is the error in your personal philosophy. Here is some info for ya , human beings while very plastic in nature and easily manipulated generally have a very well developed sense of what is right and what is wrong without needing a code book. This is why good will always triumph over evil ( evil is like ..well.. you ). While the written history of the world ( much like CNN ) is full of horror stories involving the awful immorality and cruelty of humans acting violently and oppressively against other human beings ( most of which is perpetrated by men like you who used religion as their moral compass ) , what written history is NOT FULL OF ( Much like CNN ) is the very real and common peaceful and moral activities of billions upon uncountable billions who raised their family, worked everyday, lived productive quiet lives and did so without you and your god-damned hypocritical stained book.

You are the reason the church is failing, you and others like you . Goodbye dirtbag.

As a believer in poetry (as opposed to religion) I find the whole thing a little validating and all together unsurprising, sadly.

I’m sure there’s a lot of this that goes around. It’s one of the many quirks of new technology.

Seems this pastor has only succeeded in negatively impacting perceptions of his religion. Then again, I don’t assume to have moral high-ground over anybody else.

;o)

Kim

I think it’s unfair that some Christians’ wrong moves and approach towards certain issues have caused a whole lot of hatred and disgust towards all other Christians.

I’m a Christian myself, but I’ve never once thought of atheists, or anyone from other religions, as being any less moral than some Christians are themselves. I have many friends from different religions and truth be told, I have no issues with them and neither them with me. Christians are encouraged to evangelise and spread the Word of God, and honestly, I myself have done some evangelism when I was in tertiary school. But no, I did not cram the Bible into ppl’s throats, neither did I start a heated debate with them. All I did was get into a conversation with them and we just shared our beliefs. That was all I did and many times both parties end up learning more about the other’s religion. And you know what’s the beauty of it all? The ppl I’ve evangelised to have become good friends of mine, and some even went on to learn more about Christianity on their own. To those who remained faithful to their religions, I don’t mind that one bit, and don’t strike their names off my friends’ list.

I think that’s what all Christians should really do before going all out on evangelising; just get to know the ppl, and respect their views instead of just putting up a defensive wall everytime the other person refuses to believe in Jesus. They have their reasons to believe in their respective religions, just like we do. So just hear them out. Besides, the main point of evangelising is not to “save” the person, it’s just to plant that little seed in that person, and leave the rest to God. The main vision of evangelising is so that everyone knows someone who truly follows Jesus, simple as that. Whether they believe in Him or not, we have to let them decide that for themselves. That’s why I think sometimes doing the simplest things bring out more meaning.

One last thing..to the hardcore Christians, pls remember that Jesus is the holy one, not us. We don’t have to act all high and mighty just coz we’re Christians..it doesn’t make us bionic or something. We’re still humans like everyone else. Be humble, and God bless.

Have a great Sunday y’all!

DarkMatter

“It does look as if Chris Fox now has some regret for doing this in this way, so I am guessing next time he won’t handle this in the same manner, but he does not speak for me.”
-even after his confession and apologies, he is not considered a christian? Wow.

3Jo 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

If there are more like you trying to be like apostle John and remembering like him instead of sweep their deeds under the carpet, maybe the church will be viewed in a different light, but until such time.

Those comments are the kind of thing that, had he not been incognito, and had we known he was a pastor to begin with, we’d have been able to detect that he was using a kind of “role-playing with sarcasm” to make his points. But since, here on the Internet, there weren’t sufficient cues to reveal exactly where the poster was coming from, it really was a bad call on the part of the poster; that is to say, the pastor. I’m glad he apologized, and I’m also glad you accepted him back to post under his true identity. Discussions around that identity might be a tad livelier from here on in.

>This site is open to people of all beliefs. John C can testify to >that. But don’t lie and deceive to try and gain credibility for >your ideas. It will backfire.

It’s very telling that your blog was put on the main page of WordPress.com.

This pastor was very foolish and wrong for what he did but he wasn’t entirely false in what he said.

My wife and I have often been called liars when we tell the truth. We both do counseling at our local Planned Parenthood. We tell the honest story of our own abortion and help people to hear the side of abortion that most people who claim to be about “choice” and “free” speech are very very quick to censor.

We speak to people at Indiana University and at Planned Parenthood and atheists (if they will even talk at all) will often say that right and wrong mean nothing to them. They couch it less directly than that mostly but do say it.

Then you get Randian Objectivists who have spent too much time reading Atlas Shrugged thinking it’s a sort of bible, those people call themselves rationalists etc. However, it’s funny when you talk to an atheist, it’s surprising how often they know virtually nothing about science or evolution.

Basicially, I’m an uber-conservative Christain and there is lying on both sides, no question – the question is which side has more people pursuing the truth honestly and not hiding behind banning posts on their blogs etc. You can search a few blogs – especially the one that I found by accident “abortion the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth” – I was called a liar for just saying that we killed our child – I don’t know if they called me a liar because abortion doesn’t kill a child or what they were saying but they deleted all my posts – they were not angry or rude – but you’d better believe those women suffering from abortion flipped their lids showing who’s suffering, those who address what abortion did to them or those who pretend it hand no effect.

All of us make mistakes, some can admit it some can’t. It’s a human problem – one that affects all of us. The difference is that Christians have put themselves against a standard that can be used to judge us – atheists do not so we’re easy targets.

Clint Mahoney

>This site is open to people of all beliefs. John C can testify to >that. But don’t lie and deceive to try and gain credibility for >your ideas. It will backfire.

It’s very telling that your blog was put on the main page of WordPress.com.

This pastor was very foolish and wrong for what he did but he wasn’t entirely false in what he said.

My wife and I have often been called liars when we tell the truth. We both do counseling at our local Planned Parenthood. We tell the honest story of our own abortion and help people to hear the side of abortion that most people who claim to be about “choice” and “free” speech are very very quick to censor.

We speak to people at Indiana University and at Planned Parenthood and atheists (if they will even talk at all) will often say that right and wrong mean nothing to them. They couch it less directly than that mostly but do say it.

Then you get Randian Objectivists who have spent too much time reading Atlas Shrugged thinking it’s a sort of bible, those people call themselves rationalists etc. However, it’s funny when you talk to an atheist, it’s surprising how often they know virtually nothing about science or evolution.

Basicially, I’m an uber-conservative Christain and there is lying on both sides, no question – the question is which side has more people pursuing the truth honestly and not hiding behind banning posts on their blogs etc. You can search a few blogs – especially the one that I found by accident “abortion the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth” – I was called a liar for just saying that we killed our child – I don’t know if they called me a liar because abortion doesn’t kill a child or what they were saying but they deleted all my posts – they were not angry or rude – but you’d better believe those women suffering from abortion flipped their lids showing who’s suffering, those who address what abortion did to them or those who pretend it han no effect.

All of us make mistakes, some can admit it some can’t. It’s a human problem – one that affects all of us. The difference is that Christians have put themselves against a standard that can be used to judge us – atheists do not so we’re easy targets.

reckoner71

Welcome back, Pastor Chris.

dgoffeney

Thanks for posting this. I love engaging the real thoughts of both-extreme sides. I’m interested in reading more from an ‘ex-Christian’. I’m new to blogging myself, and trying to hone my skills, even while chasing around my 1 year old triplets. I posted about an intense conversation I had with a guy on a plane and most of my responses have come in support, from my Christian friends. I’d love to hear some other thoughts, so please feel free to visit my page: dgoffeney.wordpress.com

I’ve been given yet another reason never to return to church or any religion again.

I hope you realize, Pastor, your babyshit has guaranteed that I’m still going to go to hell.

loswl

I am a Christian but, I do not support such deception. The bible (God’s Word) tells us to be an example to unbelievers In all our ways. If that story is true, that man should no longer be a pastor, why? He has shown his true light – he is a false prophet. There will be a greater condemnation for him at judgement day and maybe, just maybe, an atheist will be his judge :)

With all that said here are two verses to contemplate from God’s Word:

James 3:1-3 (New King James Version)

The Untamable Tongue

1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. 3 Indeed,[a] we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body.

James 3:2-3 (New International Version)

2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

3When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal.

We all mess up at times but, writing on a blog in a deceptive manner is not a mistake, it’s intentional and the bible warns about that too. If we know something is wrong and we do it knowingly, we are under a greater condemnation than someone who did the same thing but did not know it was a sin. Come on, why do we read and teach from the Word to the World and don’t practice what we preach?

I do encourage atheist to study the Bible and be reconciled to God through his son Jesus Christ, even with such bad examples out there because, even though there are bad example, there are also numerous good example of Christians, not perfect but, good examples, because we have not yet been perfected. You also will not be excused at the judgement time of God your creator. Two sides to the coin.

enki

I found the story most interesting because, coincidentally, I’m currently dealing with a Jehovah’s Witness who’s been misrepresenting atheism/atheists and has been making (rather absurd) accusations and allegations in a discussion forum. Be that as it may, I don’t believe the majority of Christians are into this kind of outright deception, lying, misrepresentation. On the contrary.

I think taking advantage of anonymity on the web reflects how ethical people really are. I liken it to the kind of student who doesn’t cheat when the teacher’s around but who would when there’s very little chance of getting caught. The thing is, we all instinctively want our children to do the right thing whether we’re around or not, whether reward/punishment awaits them or not. We want them to develop integrity.

I was just wondering whether Pastor Chris Fox would’ve apologized had Daniel not found out and revealed his true identity. I’m also wondering whether the JW who’s spouting off lies would stop doing so and make amends if his true identity were suddenly revealed.

I guess before we post anything we must confess our association, at least that seems like the unsaid rule. Therefore, I am a Christian and a young pastor. Not sure if I have that much to add to the conversation, but I will attempt to.
I slowly read down each and every comment this morning. My tone continued to change throughout the entire (long reading) of the comments. I was mad at the Pastor for “representing” Christians so poorly, I was embarrassed at the responses of many Christians who posted wanting to make excuses for Pastor Fox, I was amazed at some of the forgiveness and understanding that was being expressed by some here. However, I was also confused because many Christians sounded like functional atheists and many atheists sounded like functional fundamentalists. To me, that ultimately affirms our common humanity in all its beauty as well as its uglier sides. I think that clearly a challenge for everyone moving forward is for us to be affirming one another’s human dignity, being authentic (losing the christianese mumbo jumbo) being transparent and honest with one another, and I would assume that we all want to move towards creating a more pleasant and understanding atmosphere where true dialogue and mutual exchange can take place (which there has been some of, I am just advocating for more of it).
Just reading everyone’s posts has been challenging/thought provoking for me personally. Ultimately I am glad the pastor apologized, however there are always consequences for our actions, and so I do not agree with covering this up. However, someone did talk earlier about Darfur, and other atrocities globally as well as at home. I hope that we can find ways to partner at areas of agreement on such challenges that lay ahead, not allowing our different ideology continue to shackle us in the future.

sad really, that a “pastor” would say this. Makes the real christian pay for those comments. Don’t be deceived, there are some people who are truly “Christ like”. Just like there a few good men out there, this is also true for few good women, and few good christians. How you find them? You might never know.

DarkMatter

He can fool ignorant christians, but he can’t fool all. His nature is who he is.

DarkMatter

He can fool ignorant christians, but he can’t fool all humanity. His nature is who he is.

armandareza

Allah is your God…

DarkMatter

Are you sure? Maybe it is not directed at me.

ohthesweetpromise

This Pastor needs to do some serious soul searching.

draconianmeasures

Lying for Jesus, hey? Is that what he was doing? Or was he illustrating, in harsh terms, the perspective of other consituencies in order to demonstrate their flaws or where logic necessarily leads their arguments? Socrates did it. Then Plato…why not others?

Nice try.

deldobuss

That was a sad thing that he did, but I am glad he apologized. It is important to admit when we go wrong.

Thanks for posting this, it was really interesting.

-Aadel in KS

xybatt

You are right! He lied. As a Christian, I agree that the fundamentals of faith include truthfulness. Now that he is caught redhanded, let him off the hook (forgiveness). Maybe all can grow in this.

If you truly believe that the world is overpopulated, then why don’t you do the world a favor and kill yourself? What makes you think that your life is more valuable than anyone else’s? Is it the evil that exists in you?

Man. Jesus is still real and he still loves you, whether you believe or not. I pray that you would come back to God’s love and his purpose for your life.

loswl

Question-I-Thority , you asked for life changing miracles you have personally witnessed from revival09 and I persoally think he shut you down – was not necessary, if he mentioned it, he should have been able to back it up in a non-combative way.

Let me give you two of my own, I will leave out personal details but, you will get the whole idea and truth.

1. I became a christian when I was 16 and never looked back, even through adolescence – that was a miracle cause I was a sinner heading to hell, breaking God’s laws without intentions of stopping or considering the consequences. So now, I am a sinner saved by God’s grace. Basic deliverance story.

2. This is the one I intend to tell but, the first is the back story:
In 2000 I got layed off from work, I had a huge car payment, rent, utility bills, the works and not much savings to rely on. I filed for unemployment and started getting the checks while I looked for work. My bills were still not being taken care of and the upcoming month was gonna be do or die.

I visited by bro who is also a christian and explained to him my situation and how I had to find a job which could stabilize my situation. My bro said, “do not worry about it, God has a job for you already.” I was not surprised at his answer, it only reaffirmed my faith in Christ because, the bible teaches us not to worry about stuff like that, because if He takes care of the birds and flowers, he will do more for us who are made in His image (paraphrase).

I went home that night feeling somewhat ok and ready to go job hunting again. That night or a night later, I had a dream of somewhere I had been before to print a job that I had done for my church (I am a graphic designer). Back story: It was about 10 years since I had been to that location and when they saw the work I did, we discussed employment, they were the interested party, but when I told them the salary I would require of them, it became clear that they would not employ me, so I stayed emplyed at the job I had. Now in the dream, I went there to look for the manager and I was directed upstairs to his office, when I went in, his desk was a mess with work and he was on the phone speaking to someone and he could not speak to me. I waited around in the office and as I looked to the north of his office I saw that the walls were knocked down so I looked over and saw men bringing parts in, as if they were doing a remodeling and expansion of his building. I stayed for a while and observed, but the manager was still on the phone and it seem evident to me that I had to return – that was not the end of the dream but it ended shortly after that. The dream was very real and when I woke up, the first thing that came to my thought was that it was from God. My bro usually tell me of these message from God and how they come true but this was my first.

I thought of calling the job location but, I said to myself, even if they hired me it would be below my pay level and it would not help. I went back to my old job to clear out some office stuff, while there I got a call from the manager I had the dream about and I was surprised, he knew I was working there because I was working with one of his competitors. I jumped on the opportunity to tell him I was laid off and that I was job hunting. He then ask me if I was joking, I said no. He then went on to tell me that he have been looking for me for the past couple weeks and hat I must be joking or lying because he gave a church brother a message to give me. I asked, what message? He went on to tell me that he needed a graphic designer and I was the only person he could think of to fill the position. I thought this is crazy. I arranged to meet with him the next day. I did not have a portfolio put together with my current work so I spent most of the night preparing it. I went in next day and brought my “proud, beautiful portfolio” :) When I stepped in he greeted me like a brother and told me the office manager will see me in a few to talk about salary. No interview yet, so I said would you like to see my portfolio – he replied, no, I already know the type of work you are capable of. He also went on to ask me about the message he sent with my church brother and we discussed for a while and I explained that I have not seen him and that if we did meet up he would have told me about this quest he was on to find me. Long story short, I got the job and a worth salary. After employment was confirmed, I went and spoke to the manager immediately because I and to tell him about this crazy vision from God. I explained to him that I think his business would be expanding and he immediately said he had plans to do so, but someone else was in the section of the building that he wanted to acquire.

Two years into the job, the person in the next part of the building just got up and left, no explanation, leaving his employees in his mess. The business closed. Before this, my manager was looking for another building to purchase and we even found one, but someone got the deal before us. AAAHrG, nice building, but was not ment to be. My manager jump on the availability of the part of the building which was now vacant and acquired it with no problems. However he only used it for storage. I knew something was down the pike but I didn’t want to say anything else about my dream, I wanted to see how God was going to work it out, as far as the expansion was concerned. The third year, plans were made to start creating a new office in the newly acquired space and within approx. 7 months it was completed. My new office was now in that section and the front office was also. Now remember, in the dream I went upstairs to see the manager, that was my old office, exact location as in the dream. Now I moved downstairs and my manager moved upstairs in the same office I dreamt him in, my old office, that’s were all the confusing office mess is kept today, away from the clients. Just like I saw in the dream. There are more details but I’ll stop there. I reminded my manager about the dream I told him a little before the project was ended and he told me no, he does not remember, but after I explained he aid yes, I do remember now.

Those are two of my personal miracles. I think it happened to me in order to strengthen my belief but, I told you because you enquired and that it may make you believe. Can miracles occur to the unbeliever, Yes, in order for them to believe. When Jesus fed the multitude with a boys lunch, there were unbelievers in the audience but everyone ate of the lunch of fish and bread, that miraculously fed 5,000 women +men and children. However, there is also another side, sometimes it does not matter how many miracles we see or experience, it’s not enough. If you read the new testament in the Holy bible you’ll see what I mean – it’s just not enough to believe in God, even he devil believes in Him and tremble. However I implore you to check out the death, burial and resurrection of His son Jesus Christ, because if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and repent you will be free from what the bible calls the bondage of sin. That goes for me and you. I am not better that you, I am just saved from the same faith, due to sin. Death. (complete spiritual separation from God)

I’ve read a good majority of the replies to this blog and am saddened to see that most you just don’t ‘get it’. I’m not talking about the wrongs that were done through slandering and impersonating; I agree that they were wrong. But they were also confessed and apologized for. As a society, people have been a lot less condemned for more serious crimes (if you can even call this a “crime”).

No. What saddens me is the slam on “religion” and the insinuations that this is what Christianity is all about, because of the actions of 1 man. The Bible is not about religion (that was man’s interpretation – just like the many Christian faiths out there – each with their own docterines). The Holy Bible I read is about God’s love, forgiveness, His Grace, and His ultimate sacrifice of His son, Jesus, who died on the cross to bear our sins..and no, not just the sins of Christians. Jesus came to save all mankind because He loves us THAT MUCH. For those who choose to accept that ultimate gift of God’s love and try to follow the ways of the Bible, we are called “Christians” but we are still human, still subject to sin, we still make mistakes. The difference is the accepting of God’s sacrifice and the using of God’s word to guide us through our mistakes, strengthen us when we fall, and raise us up to be the children of the King we are ALL meant to be. One only need look at some of the greatest people in the world to see that…Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, even Anthony (Tony) Robbins, all God-fearing, Jesus loving people! God Bless them for the goodness they brought/bring into the lives of millions upon millions of people.

All I’d like to say is, please don’t lose sight of the message because of the messenger, or use the mistake of one man to persecute others. To the messanger, I for one, forgive you. And for those of you who have heard stuff or think you know about what it’s all about, I challenge you to read God’s word and ponder it for yourself before you draw your own conclusions.

~Shalom (peace :)

Zelda

dahljode

All those of you who still believe that faith and believing in a supernatural spirit are prerequisites for moral and ethics should check out Phil Zuckerman on YouTube. (interview by Danish TV). Life is so much nicer and honest without the Book and the dogmas, especially for women. You can be sure, there is no heaven or hell.

DarkMatter

“I’ve read a good majority of the replies to this blog and am saddened to see that most you just don’t ‘get it’. I’m not talking about the wrongs that were done through slandering and impersonating; I agree that they were wrong.”

What is his wrong that you think “you” don’t get it?

lostinjersey

How Would Jesus Lie?

raybann

Hey all!
This person has succumbed to the use of “Rovian’ tactics in his perception of his own weak position.
I remember Rove once placed ‘bugs’ in an office of his own candidate and then had them ‘discovered’.
Not exactly analogous but it is exactly this kind of machination that are precisely antithetical to the teaching of my Christ.
Pastors? We don’t need no stinkin’ pastors!
Christ is self evident within. To me. And it is only to me, as I learn to live reflectively rather than reflexively.
If this fellow has kids I would love to hear his explanation of this to them.
The use of dirty tricks in any group often seems to come from those who can categorize the ‘other’ as the ‘enemy’.
At age 53 I have yet to categorize anyone as my enemy. Even if the feeling might have been different from a few I have met regarding myself.
Shine on fellow travelers.

raybann
CosmosLaundry Journal

Hanna

I love how so many argue that all human morality is derived from the bible, even though law systems such as the Hammurabi Code existed before any monotheistic religion.

There is something within the human psyche that tells us what is right from wrong, whether it is leanred from experience or whether we are born with it. But to suggest that it was given to us by a higher power is an insult to the collective human consciousness.

If you need a book (created by MAN, by the way, not your God) to tell you what’s right from wrong, then by all means use it. But don’t you dare use morality as a way of trying to find common ground between us. Atheists have a moral code that stems from a sense of honor and self-identity, not fear and worship.

Hi.
I’m brazilian, I do not understand English very well, and would be great if you could set a translation tool in this blog.
Anyway, this theme is beaultiful and this post is nice (I’m talking about what I could understand).

Whao i am very saddened by these comments. I am a Christian a Seventh day Adventist. And even if i agree or disagree with other peoples Faith or lack their of. It is not my placer to judge others. But what this “Pastor” commented was wrong and not very Christian at all, i will be praying for him.

I was so glad to reach the end of your post and read his apology. Though his lying was certainly a discredit to many people’s perception of Christianity, his apology speaks volumes.

mms20

Ok, perhaps I’m just not reading this correctly, but I really don’t see how this was SUCH a huge deal…he did lie in a way, but it was to prove a point. I completely understand where’s he’s coming from and I just don’t see how what he did was so wrong. Sure, maybe not a good way to prove a point, but he got your attention, now didn’t he?

Darby

Ok, perhaps I’m just not reading this correctly, but I really don’t see how this was SUCH a huge deal…he did lie in a way, but it was to prove a point.

I’m really amazed how it’s possible to fail to understand something so simple, but let me attempt to explain it in a way you might be capable of understanding.

He lied flat out, “not in a way”. That’s one very important point.
Further, he did not lie in order to “make a point”. The “point” was his lie. He didn’t make a point he told a lie, and tried to pawn it off on millions of decent people all over the world.

I wish I could say that I was surprised to see so many Christians like you and he who have no understanding of morality or ethics or even basic human decency, and think it’s ok to lie through your teeth provided it’s intended to hurt decent people just because they are thinkers rather than believers.

If you were incapable of understanding that on your own, then it’s an indication that your reasoning skills are very poor, and that your morals are crap.

Candid Paine

How funny. How very funny.

This is one of the reason why people think Christianity is just another religion that has absolutely no consequence.

Most Christians (me included, unfortunately) tend to lead more people away from Jesus than to him. It’s hard being a Christian, every second you’re just waiting to be devoured by a pack of wolves.

If people don’t listen to you…well, that’s their problem. They’re the ones who’ll suffer. Just do the best you can…but not as far as lying.

sorry that happened. that is very odd behavior for a christian to do that….usually we just say we are christians, and get it over with…..

Jesse

Why is the preacher apologizing? What he did may have been deceitful; but that is for him/her alone to judge. In either case, he apologized, and persisting to embarrass him is only a credit to a hyper-judgmental band of blog apes.

How does one apologize for being deceitful to that which is itself deceitful? What’s deceitful is Atheism’s claim to some philosophical high ground that is nothing more than a pile of sand. In my own experience, the volume of Atheists who are willing to misrepresent their credentials is completely unrestrained by any measure of credibility. Having read Dawkins or Hitchens or the other guys is no purchase of authority; not in public, and ESPECIALLY not in any formal philosophical context. They have none of them taken formal coursework in philosophy of religion; if they had, they would not be running an Atheist blog.

Can you hear me Padre? You have nothing to apologize for to these internet clowns. This is outrageous. You guys are your own punchline.

WOW! This has created quite a stir! It might have been easier to stand on a ledge and threaten to jump or possibly just have a good old fashion hanging. Lots of people always showed up for a hanging or tar and feathering.

But certainly is a lesson learned for the pastor. Glad our God is a God of grace.

nathantyree

The preacher’s behavior fails to be shocking. Rather, I expect this sort of thing from fundamentalists.

Hmm… very interesting post. Thanks for sharing this.
As a Christian myself, I totally understand the temptation to try and play the “devil’s advocate” but realize the damage and it can do. Sometimes, we want to share our own opinion so much (regardless of what we believe), we don’t realize how much we degrade and devalue the ones we are lying to. Thanks for showing the other side. Appreciate it :)

Ihavefeet

Wow, getting to this point I wish I had time to read all the comments made here, but i simply don’t have time. But I think I have the General gist of it.
I find this pastor’s comments to be an interesting point in case, because although the lie was not justified he clearly wasn’t being malevolent or trying to hurt anyone. I think the term most appropriate here would be that he was ‘over zealous’, a state which I’m sure we have all found ourselves in.
Mr. Fox’s comments which he made under his pseudenyms were, as far as i can see, the frustrated attempts of a man convinced in his faith to save people from a woefully inaccurate stereotype. It’s surprising to see how few people there are in this world who actually mean to do harm, who do evil deeds to hinder progress, instead of claiming to be fighting for the needs of others or some greater purpose, how ever deluded and ill-conceived this purpose is. Considering has apology, Mr. Fox is clearly not one of these people, he is in fact a man trying to save the souls of others. I’m not defending the lies he told or the largely false accusations he made about a perfectly ordinary group of people, I’m just saying that his motives were clearly pure.
The same can be said about almost all Christian people. I was approached just before christmas last year by a pair of youths who wanted to invite me to the miracle of jesus christ through the church and the bible. Whatever you may think about people who stand on the street peddling their religion to the masses, almost all of whom have their irremovable concepts about religeon already in place, I chose to see two young men who approached a complete stranger in an attempt to save his soul from falling into damnation and thereby being allowed into eternal paradise.
I make no secret about my feelings for the church and the bible; to me they are wonderfull buildings and rather, shall we say, ‘Revealing’ literature which are pure and well meaning as a concept but in their physical being have been used as propaganda and justification for moral injustices by certain individuals throughout history since before even the Romans got the idea. Weather The Bible was written by those men in the words directly handed down from god is now irrelevant, it is certainly a very human book in this day and age.
But that’s not the point here. I’ve wandered a little off the topic I suppose, but my point still stands. The gentlemen who wanted to convert me to their faith were ready to believe in the good in a human being they had never met (for those of you who would call me naive by the way, I expect nothing less. I am the sort of person who gives others the benefit of the doubt) and yes this was based on the words in the bible, but still they were doing what they thought was right.

So drawing to a close, Pastor Chris Fox is not, as far as I am concerned, a bad person. He’s just a good person who in the line of doing something which he thought was right, ended up doing something which he himself knew to be wrong. Life tends to just throw this kind of paradox at you and you have to deal with that. I’m sure everyone who has posted on this Blog will know what i mean.

gina94984

peeingupwind is an idiot. offensive and stupid and the sort of fool who gives fundies their daily dose of horror and righteous indignation at the state of the non-christian world. you got it all over yourself with your abominable post.

Grigori

I don’t get all the fuss about this either. I pretty much expect Christians to act hypocritically and amorally. They can ask forgiveness later. (The US has the highest prison population in the world, both per capita and sheer numbers. How’s that for the most religious industrialized nation on earth?)

Us atheists have to live with our mistakes and thus are held to a higher moral standard.

S.o.G

You bore false witness.

This is against one of the ten commandments.

It is the same in god’s eyes as murdering someone or stealing or adultery.

IMPORTANT – Do this WITHOUT insult or abuse, as it will make you as bad as the perpetrator and vindicate his actions.

To everyone who is offended as I am about this matter, and regardless of your beliefs, I urge you to write personally to Pastor Chris Fox expressing your concern at his actions and requesting a public apology.

Here is the email I have just sent to the Pastor if you want some ideas…

Dear Pastor Chris Fox,

Your actions in impersonating an atheist for the sole purpose of spreading hatred based on your own wrong stereotypes, are deeply offensive.

In doing this you have disgraced not only yourself, but the values of the church you represent. Apart from denying your own God, your willingness to repeatedly bear false witness against those who have done you no harm has hurt and insulted very many people, religious and non-religious alike.

Nothing but a full, unqualified and sincere PUBLIC apology to ALL atheists will come close to redeeming your utterly abhorrent behaviour.

Yours sincerely,
Peter B.
(Full name given)

————-
Please also consider joining the Brights and supporting the Out campaign.

I get a kick out of how he made the common mistake of assuming that being an atheist automatically means having no morals. That logical fallacy has been trashed time and time again but some people keep trotting it out. Amazing. Anyway, that fact made me suspicious right off the bat.

P

Please. I saw this blog pop up on the word press site, it’s insane that people are caring enough to comment. BUT, if the point of the title is to create some kind of shock value ” caught lying for Jesus” — I maybe it should read ” Atheist wastes people’s time bashing Christians”
Get over your bitterness and self titled ” former Christian ” –
you never were a Christian if you aren’t now, so be proud of your Atheism, and stop seeking approval from Christians and trying to exact punishment on them for your wounds. Live YOUR life and give up trying get back at a religion you now reject. You’re keeping this relationship with Christianity going by constantly verbalizing your distain. If you truly “quit ” the Christian religion then find something else to talk about. You dont need this conflict and friction to validate your view, and by rousing Christian angst, you don’t gain anything, if you are right,and convinced of it, then why seek out blogging against something that should be a mute point to you. Don’t define your self by what you ARN’T or don’t like. But by who you ARE now. Be your self and stop worrying about punishing others who aren’t like you . [ isn’t that why you rejected Christianity in the first place , because you were treated that way?] give it up. [ this blog comes across as “bitter Atheist bashing Christians blog] YAY what fun. [?]

jessica

It’s unreasonable how he stereotyped all atheists; who’s to say every atheist believes in raping and killing children? The bible believes to spread the word of God not go against him to upset people of his religion and people otherwise. I’m an atheist however I have morals and I respect everyone’s views as long as they are not criticising others or upsetting them, is that so hard to do?

There’s too many comments here to analyze, but there was one that stood out. “God’s Only Comic” made an especially rancid and arrogant slur on the character of a man that did nothing to deserve it… and, how is it that a professed atheist can get away with saying something so idiotic, and not suffer retribution for it… because it’s an atheist blog?

“The problem is that Jesus is the same vengeful, vindictive, infanticidal nut job described in the Old testament.”

The only thing he got right was the identity of the second member of the Godhead in the Old Testament… which tells me this could be a disgruntled former Christian, because most do not associate Christ with the God of the Old Testament, and only they have the vitriol to talk like that. The rest was unsubstantiated bullshit… the ravings of a lunatic!

I see that a lot… Christians have to tip-toe around the sensibilities of Godless folk, and the latter can slander and swear against God and Christ all they want. Theirs is considered free and open thought, whilst the Christian is considered narrow and vindictive!

Well, Comic, (a good handle for you, because you’re a laugh of a man, buddy!) this Christian makes NO apologies to ANYONE, and banishment isn’t anything new to me, nor is it feared. I grew up without religion, and since I’ve found the truth after having to sort through the myriad of lies by atheists intent upon burying the truth, I’ve been far better off for it. And, I won’t be coddling you or any other of your ilk, compadre, so get that straight, right now, moron!

I’m the sword that Gideon wielded, because there is a need for people like me… to laugh in the face of arrogant infidels, who deride and insult God and His people every day. There is nothing that says that any follower of Christ has to take the crap that self-important cretins feel it’s their duty to dish out upon others that don’t think like them. I don’t give a rat’s ass what that preacher said or did, because David was a liar and a murderer… pretty much every follower of Christ had a dark side. That was the point… to equalize all in the need for salvation, and God doesn’t play favorites! Far more infidels commit crimes and atrocities than Christians, but, that fact is strangely omitted in the rhetoric of atheists.

I always hear the same tired old crap that God murdered women and babies in the OT… and just what do you think those heathen fools were doing to THEIR neighbors… engaging them in knitting contests? Wake the f*** up, why don’tcha? The Assyrians skinned people alive, one strip at a time, over DAYS!!! They cut off fingers, one at a time, cauterized the wound, then worked on up the arm, one joint at a time, cutting, cauterizing, then started on the toes! What was left was a trunk writhing in agony on the ground! The Philistines BURNED their infants in the ‘arms’ of a pagan god as sacrifices… and THAT’S okay with you, eh, Comic? Nothing in your smart mouth about what THEY did, huh? Not surprised! Atheists are the most ‘selective’ debaters there are!

You talk about science being your salvation… a science that has been warped and misrepresented by infidels bent upon erasing the Creator’s visage from nature. You have a false and vain hope, there! But, you know, the Christian has time on his/her side. Infidels don’t. Now, I know that my words will be misconstrued as those of a crank, and I really don’t care! I care when honest folk ask honest questions, and I’m getting low on patience for infidels that only seek to work Christians over. You want to take me on? Come onto my turf, anyone, here! Preach to me your rhetoric that I’ve heard AD NAUSEUM for decades, the same tired old excuses for not believing in the Bible, and God’s sovereignty. I’ll show you a head-wagging infidel behind the errant actions of any Christian, who influenced them to do what they did.

Now, ban away, Mr. Administrator, or moderate me into oblivion, because that’s how infidels that I deal with handle opposite thinking. I care not.

No apologies… ever!

thesouldoctor

It is madness, total madness.

reckoner71

I think one of us needs a little nap.

Clint Mahoney

LRA,

You have no idea what we tell these women. Did you hear what I said, my wife and I have had an abortion, I know how they feel. They feel trapped, cheated, angry, scared – and often they’re in a thick fog.

We tell them that we’re not here to judge them to but help them. But if you’ve stereotyped us then you’re not going to listen to anything I’ve said.

To be sure, there are tons of Christian hypocrites, there are tons of non-Christian hypocrites, actually hypocrisy is pretty much the nature of man. But there are Christians who don’t make it a practice of going around hating people, but you see your definition of love is not going to be the same as ours.

I have talked to hundreds of women about to have an abortion (and the the fathers) and have never called the a sinner or said they were going to hell.

So get your facts straight about what we do, some people do what you say but Paul Hill is not a role model for anyone I know.

Atheism is a religion and it has its hypocrites too. Anything that’s got human beings in it is going to have that.

I’m sorry that people have been hurt by Christians that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist. People have been hurt by atheists too, does that mean that it’s proof that God does exist?

As far as the keep your laws off my body routine – if you had a Siamese twin who was using your kidney and heart but you were tired of them cramping your style at parties, would you be allowed to kill them? People who are on life support, like victims of polio aren’t alive because they can’t breath for themselves – can’t live on their own?

Good idea… and, when you wake up, tell me the fairy-story of Evolution, so I can have a good nap, too… or a good laugh!

doesntworkthatway

I’ve never heard of atheists denying that other people, besides the Israelites, were committing atrocities in ancient times. If we don’t focus on this it’s because there aren’t any people today who claim to have inherited their religious or moral traditions from the ancient Assyrian pagans.

Just because other people were doing it, doesn’t make it okay.

There’s no excuse for murdering toddlers. “But they get to murder toddlers!” is not an excuse.

It’s pretty amazing that you’re actually trying to make excuses for this. I wish that your idea of Christian love were an aberration.

celebritysecret2discover

Seems like we all have our personal dictionaries and college degrees open to be able to keep up with the intellectual arguments that are present here. Pastor Chris Fox (a lower level servant) has surely gotten the results that he was seeking from his actions.

The flesh apologized, but the evil spirit is laughing!

Now that we Christians, Atheists. and all other religious and non-religious individuals have allowed Pastor Chris Fox to unmasked our true and well guarded nature, by opening the egotistical door of dominance, confusion, shame, apology, guilt, insecurity, defensiveness and hatred.

Will the philosopher whom has journeyed through the door of the heart, using the eyes of the heart to see and grasp the wisdom of God, step forward and share his/her experiences of what and where our level of belief in God, Jesus, Divine Intervention, science, dark matters or evil should be?

I get the one-sided accusation all the time… the BIG BAD ISRAELITES MURDERING ALL THOSE INNOCENT CHILLUNS! Give me a break! You obviously don’t hang in places that I do, okay? Don’t tell me what I’ve experienced, you don’t know, and you don’t know me, either. My idea of “love” has just as much merit or virtue as anything you could come up with.

The science that atheists venerate is always touting inherited behavior, through genetic means. Your arrogant statement that no form of infanticide is acceptable might be true from your limited viewpoint… however… when did you ascend above the mind of the Almighty? Did you ever suppose, for even a second, that maybe God understands/understood more about the human mind and behavior than even your eminence? Did you ever consider that those kids, so cute and cuddly, witnessed barbaric acts perpetrated by their elders against other people, so much that it may have made an indelible impression upon their characters so that they might, as is often touted by scientists and doctors of today, be inclined toward the same behavior? You ever hear of the abused child becoming an abuser?

These were horrendously primitive times and peoples, and the situation obviously called for measures maybe not acceptable, today. And, who are you or I to question infinite wisdom? If your child assumed your stance, and called your decisions foolish and uncalled for – what comparison would that have with the gulf that lies between your mind and that of deity? You weren’t there… you don’t have any authority to offer any kind of counsel, nor critique God.

They were all given numerous opportunities to allow the Hebrews passage, unmolested. Those that complied, saw no retribution. The same couldn’t be said for the godless tyrants who slaughtered out of pure enjoyment.

It’s obvious that you are a fool, a liar, and an extremely angry person, most likely due to those two other primary of your personality which I pointed out.

Your arrogant statement that no form of infanticide is acceptable might be true from your limited viewpoint…

That’s not arrogant, it’s called having a grasp of morals and ethics. Your lack of them is a big part of your desperate desire for a magical invisible friend to tell you that you’re ok.

however… when did you ascend above the mind of the Almighty? Did you ever suppose, for even a second, that maybe God understands/understood more about the human mind and behavior than even your eminence?

Obviously not, because I’m not an idiot who believes in magical invisible fairies. Imaginary friends are for children. It’s time to grow up.

And, who are you or I to question infinite wisdom

The fact that so many of your imaginary friend’s alleged actions are so far beneath the contempt of decent people whose morals are far superior is what calls any idiotic idea that your imaginary friend is anything but a delusion.

You weren’t there… you don’t have any authority to offer any kind of counsel, nor critique God.

It’s *easy* to critique your god. Assuming he was real, he made so many stupid decisions which anybody with a scrap of sense could easily improve on.

That’s because your god is nothing but a tool of ignorant savages to help justify genocide, theft, and a whole host of other disgusting behavior.

“Once upon a time, the big bang theory was the best explanation we have to date for the formation of the universe. The End.”

LOL! And, they say Christians are arrogant!

Like I said… the same, tired old rhetoric.

Primitive

you know smtn’? he is just playing…leave him alone!

there is nothing wrong with fooling around (like i am doing right now) in the internet. If i was him, i would probably sue you for spying on me!!! it’s privacy dammit! you aren’t supposed to stick your nose in other’s private affairs! and in no way i see the pastor being at fault!

the pastor thought (probably) that no-body would know his identity and that made him do whatever he wanted (let it be “writing junk” or “acting stupid” or “faking to be a non-believer”). You are the one who HAD TO GO SPY ON PEOPLE!

it would seem that pastor chris has gotten his wish and opened a huge debate. too bad he had to be a stereotype to accomplish his goal. there’s so much room for so many opinions in this world. the crying shame is the lack of accurate information on so many issues that are hot button topics to religious folk, particularly fundamentalists. i know whereof i speak as i know a wide variety of people of different orientations and beliefs and was myself raised as a catholic. i can’t believe the complete tripe that is being spouted in some of the posts here and frankly would not want some of these so-called christians for a next door neighbour.

Also, tell that self-righteous twit doesntworkthatway that using the tired old “you’re just so sick” accusation is pretty passe, by now, and that only those with limited intelligence and imagination, so that they deliberately misconstrue everything that I say, (English even the lowest moron could understand) doesn’t count for intelligent debate, okay?

I didn’t have an abortion but my child was killed as well. But I had a four feminists in training at Planned Parenthood this week tell me that since I’m a man I can’t have any understanding. I said, “I understand because my wife told me and I listened.”

Then I said, “I have testicles so I am a complete moron and can understand nothing – you have ovaries so you understand the entire universe perfectly – do you realize how sexist that is?”

They got sorta quiet then. But what really got them quiet was after asking if they’d had abortions (since I’d never had a pro-abortion person admit their abortion) – they said that abortion was fantasmigorical and then when I asked if they’d seen an abortion performed on youtube or this movie Lake of Fire, they got very quiet and looked very ashamed and uncomfortable.

There’s a lot about abortion that no one is saying – and they hide behind this “It’s a woman’s choice”

Since when do we allow any choice to be allowed simply by virtue that “it’s a choice” – “choice” has become a symbol in our culture, a word that has no real meaning because it’s overloaded and therefor made completely abstract and something that cannot be argued against.

My wife will happily get on here and tell you the same thing, but you wouldn’t listen. She has ovaries last time I checked.

Wow, I think this thread may have broken a record for hit-and-run comments. At least it’s not as bad as the Kurt Warner threads when people thought that this was a Sports site. :P

iamtheenemy

> The real hypocrites are the ones who criticize the non-religious for not being open-minded or civil enough, and then leave as soon as their points are refuted, and then are stubbornly determined to have the last word, too.

Wow, so do we leave or do we stick around and have the last word? You’re not making any sense.

Unlike a lot of you, I have children. Also, church tomorrow, can’t spend all night on a runaway blog.

…and you wonder the percentage of people who don’t believe in pastors, priests or god has increased.

iamtheenemy

Well, LRA, you really got me there I think I’ll turn atheist now.

I was a pre-med student at Vanderbilt University majoring in Molecular biology at the time of my abortion. I probably know more about evolution than you do and I am unconvinced. My wife was already accepted to med school at Vandy at the time of our abortion, back when Vandy was still 17th in the nation. She could have gone to Harvard if she wanted but went to Vandy because it was an hour from home.

Funny, you can find stories about people who liked their abortion but the fact remains, you can easily find tons and tons more people who regret it.

Google doesn’t lie.

nonlukewarm

The sad thing is today you sometimes can’t tell a true Christian (Believer) from a Non Christian (Non Believer). In a lot of cases both curse, drink, go to clubs, talk walk and live in the flesh instead of the spirit. Especially, leaders of the churches. Most of them teach wrong doctrine so it’s no wonder the sheep don’t get fed. It should never be about Religion because that is man made and man’s traditions not Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour’s. Most of the church leaders are all about prosperity and not about salvation and truth. You don’t get saved by being a good person as so many people think. You get saved by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour period. It is a free gift from God and not of works that we do. It’s is purely by God’s mercy and grace we are saved but our choice to accept His gift. He gave us Free Will as Karen stated and that is TRUTH! Everyone can make light of the truth if they want to, just remember God is not mocked. There are only two kinds of people in the world and they are Believers and Non Believers. It’s your choice and if you take this lightly you will be Satan’s company in the Lake of Fire. My Blog is http://NonLukewarm.wordpress.com and I’d love to get some feedback because we need to get God’s truths out and help people draw nearer to God and away from Satan the ruler of this world. God Bless You all.

loswl

I believed in my imaginary friend long before my coincidences. :)

prilea

Takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I think pastor Chris and Daniel show what can be accomplished when two people reasonably talk things through. Kudos to you both for acting human in this medium that often insulates us from being human or even accountable.

Huh, I hope he’s being honest about that apology…and also that he makes an effort to better understand atheists and other pro-choice supporters in the future.

reckoner71

Any bets on the keynote of this Sunday’s sermon at the Kendalls Baptist Church?

jpeaslee

That is very sad. While I’m sure he had the best of intentions, there’s no doubt his actions were wrong.

I think it’s good that you called him out on it.

elanz

Well, I’ll provide my own perspective as an aethist, in response to the pastor’s question (no, agnostic really). Religion revolves around Moral teachings but Ethics/ Morals is not a subset of Religion. Ethics and Morals exist independently or religion.

One can be irreligious and still abide by the most conventional social norms/ morals/ ethical standards. In contrast, one can be deeply religious but chooses to trust his own faith/ instinct as opposed to adhering to acceptable social standards.

Pastor, you’re an example of the latter.

So please do not claim that anti-abortion is a special perogative of Christians, or that immorality is a quality unqiue to non-Christians.

Interesting how people love to look for the “unfaithful or hypocritical Christians” but almost never look for unfaithful and hypocritical atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus….It’s like they almost expect Christians to be perfect.

Don’t focus on the followers of a faith, look to the one they follow. Christ!

So what if some guy (even a pastor) lied?! Does that discredit the claims of Christ?! Certainly not!

andydbrown

There is no such thing as a non-hypocritical or faithful ANYONE, actually. Whose standard are you talking about there, “teleprompter”?! Yours? Majority rules?
The Word of God says that “all have fallen short of the glory of God”. ALL!
Again, the focus should not be on sinful men trying to reach up and show themselves approved to God=religion.
The focus should be on God (revealed in Christ) reaching down to us sinful humans and providing us with HIS righteousness=the true and only faith.

So, YES, Christianity is really able to explain this! (And your denying or arguing it does not make it any less true.)

No words need to be said about the article, I think it speaks enough for itself. Just as I think the failings of the individual show that any belief system can produce faulty morals or allow for individual to act in such a way. I am neither aethiest or Christiain but pagan and the same holds true for us.

But I must say I was really impressed in the way in which you forgave his transgression and moved on. Personally I believe a person should act the way you did, strong and upright in the face of attack and yet compassionate in the face of apology!

I am a Christian, and I do believe that lying is sin. Preacher or not. But I also believe in forgiving, and he has apologized and I would never hold against him what he has done. Hang in there preacher. We all fail at some time or other, at some thing or other. I am still human and still just a sinner saved by Grace. I would hope that when I show myself weak, ignorant, or foolish, (which is more often than I would like), that I could count on the forgiveness of those about me, Christian and non-Christian. Still like the site, and still praying for some of you.

Pastor Knight

squirrel

hell yea thats the way to think. morality can exist without religion. god killed more people in the bible than satan did anyways

Kudos for the pastor for coming clean. While I don’t condone what he did, I can understand why he was driven to do it.

Steverazor

For those of you who haven’t noticed, Xians (especially fundies) do not fight fair. With apologies to brilliant bloggers like The Friendly Atheist, we should never worry about hurting feelings or offending religous idiots. Radical, confrontational atheism is the only way to battle against an unreasonable and hateful (ironic I know) foe. Oh, and Gerber Inkl, the pastor did not come clean, he was busted and never admitted guilt. That is not the definition of coming clean.

Scott Cheatham

The atheist religion is puzzling to me. In claiming the supposed intellectual higher ground, you resort to writing an entire post on one man’s lying? This happens everyday and under many false pretenses. I don’t care that this man was a minister. I am too but I would not have made the big show of this one man’s situation into a “prove your point” type of event.

I’ve had agnostics, homosexuals, and atheists comment on my blog (as well as many from other faiths) and I’ve privately discussed with each one the choices of words they may have made. In most instances, my readers don’t even know it’s happened because I limit those comments on my site because of the very firestorm it causes. I don’t need pages and pages of finger pointing, name calling, and potential vulgarity.

When a true sense of idea exchange occurs, there’s no need to promote it like a “gotcha” show. It happens all by itself.

As an atheist I’m offended by the Pastor’s remarks. Just because I don’t believe in God doesn’t mean I don’t have morals. I’m sorry, but don’t go around parading under the banner of Jesus and the golden rule of “love your neighbor as you would love yourself.” That’s just wrong, stop attacking atheists for choosing not to follow religion; we don’t hate you as people, we just question your beliefs.

Daniel have you ever wondered why the holy rollers refuse to debate. Why they pull hit and runs. Why they refuse to answer direct questions such as LRAs question of whether or not abstinence only programs work.

Wouldn’t you figure if they have the baddest dude of all time backing them (Yahweh) they would stay and defend the positions they take. The arguments they claim were true would be vigorously defended.

I have a theory. Most holy rollers wont stay and debate because deep down inside (or maybe not so deep) they know they cant defend what they claim is true.

Simply stated they know how dumb they appear especially after 3 or for comments.

Glenn

I left a comment a day ago but it only got one reply. I think I presented an interesting question and hope to get some additional feedback. So I am reposting the comment, with some additional thoughts.

It seems to me that the deeper issue here is why people lie. Lying is a very complex matter that comes in many forms. So here’s some food for thought.

David Livingstone Smith, an author and professor at the University of New England, believes that people lie, in part, because humans evolved that way. For Smith, to lie is an unavoidable, natural act that helps society as a whole function. It brings many benefits to those who lie.

He said in a major Brazilian news magazine the following (my translation from Portuguese): “The lie is the pillar of social relations. To tell lies is a tendency as internalized in the human being as the ability to talk and walk. We don’t have a choice not to lie.” (Veja, October 18, 2006, p. 11-15)

You might be interested in reading his book, Why We Lie:The Evolutionary Roots of Deception and the Unconscious Mind (St. Martins Press 2004). He also has other books on this subject.

For the purpose of discussion, let’s just stay within the evolutionary framework. If what Smith says in his books is true, all people are “wired” to lie and it can’t be avoided. Additionally, evolution made us this way because it brings benefits to the liar. This is consistent with the prime mover of evolution, which is the survival of the fittest. Lying is actually good.

So my question is this: If a person operates within the evolutionary framework and accepts Smith’s scientific affirmations, is there a basis to criticize or reprimand the pastor? It seems to me that he was just following his natural wiring, and that in someway it benefitted the natural order.

Has anyone ever read the book, “The Prodigal God”? by Tim Keller? It is interesting as it points out two truths that speak to this conversation. The first is that when studying the life of Jesus, those who were known for their religious morals where constantly set in opposition to the message that Jesus lived and taught. The other thing that was refreshing to see, was that in the story of the “prodigal son”, the elder brother was equally lost as the younger who went and squandered his inheritance away. The elder brother was the “righteous, moral one” and he was also the one at the end of the story who remained outsiide of the feast at the father’s house. (Luke 15)

Two groups were present to hear this teaching. The tax collectors and sinners, who did not follow the moral code of the Jewish faith and community expectations, yet they were constantly being drawn to be around Jesus. This first group represented the younger brother, the prodigal son. The other group were the scribes and Pharisees. They were famous for holding to religious moralism and judging others on how they kept the code. They represented the elder brother.

This story is radical for anyone considering atheism. Especially for those who do so because they have been judged and rejected and see the emptiness of religion. Remember that Jesus saw this too, and confronted it on a regular basis. Did you know that first century followers of Jesus were considered atheist, because followers of The Way, did not meet up to all the religious standards.

Let me finish by saying that I grew up in a “fundie church” and was a religious snot. I judged others by how the lived up to “the standard”, while secretly struggling with lust and addiction. I was powerless to break these vices in my life, even though I loved Jesus. My “righteousness” was of my own strength and worthless.

My journey away from “the fundies” and organized religion has led me to a different place than some of the others who have commented on this page. In the midst of my flight from church, I realized that Jesus identified with people like me.

I now am a part of a faith community that is full of recovering elder brothers, and returning younger brothers. We are not perfect, but we try hard to make the gospel about the life and power of Jesus and not our ability to be moral. I still have strong convictions on certain things, (abortion being one of them) but our perspective is way different than what I grew up with. We are not in a argument or fight to try to convince others that our position is right. Rather, we are learning how to really humble ourselves and pray, and ask God to reveal to all how precious every life is.

I hope this comment comes across as more than semantics. I am glad to have stumbled across this sight, where real people can share their views and stories as they journey.

DarkMatter

I find it easier to converse with “out of church christians”.

victorianaleague

Pastor in church is just a human,he can commit a sin too. I am not surprised with it. I will just pray for him that he will realized the mistake he made. Hope he is ready to face the consequences.

It wasa shock to me the first time I had encountered an Baptist pastor lying to me, it was a continual shock the next 25 years as well.. it was also a shock how many persons will next back up, still support an immoral pastor.. In fact last week a pastor wrote back to me and he has been abusing me ten times next in one week.. the ends do not juistify the means. Pastors have to live the life as well as to preach it. So does the professing Canadian Christian Prime Minister Stephen Harper..

(1 Tim 5:20 KJV) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

(1 Tim 5:21 KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

(Mat 18:14 KJV) Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

(Mat 18:15 KJV) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

(Mat 18:16 KJV) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

(Mat 18:17 KJV) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church:

(1 John 1:9 KJV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1 John 1:10 KJV) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

It also means that God doesn’t understand that we have a different definition of death than he does, or he’s being deliberately deceptive by using a word he knows we’ll misunderstand.

Nargh

I can’t even begin to get involved in this because Christianity and all other religions have so many holes in them that I could use them all as cheese grinders, but I think it’s pretty ridiculous to follow your zombie prophet who is his own pop. I also think it’s ridiculous to think that once upon a time, some big dude with a white beard made a magical garden and had a bunch of people there and then a snake gave them a fruit and it all went to hell. The fruit, itt, is the Fruit of Knowledge, which says something about the religion as a whole. It’s the same story with most other monotheistic religions. It’s pretty damn crazy if you ask me

I LOVE the fact that this comment was made in the same thread he/she said it was “insane” to comment in.

Translation: “I am insane.”

Kelly

how could some1 say that it’s perfectly fine to kill babies?? if u ask mi, that guy is psyco if he thinks that is alright.

yes, i respect athiests, but i think its craaazy how they think they can do ANYTHING and it is okay?? laws go by the same rules as God’s law (most of the time) so they should kinda see the picture that it’s wrong.

if God wasn’t real, there would be more chaos than u could imagine on earth.

i rest my case.

Darby

yes, i respect athiests, but i think its craaazy how they think they can do ANYTHING and it is okay??

I think it’s really odd that you would drop in and post an extremely stupid lie like you just did.

What would cause a person like yourself to do something like that? It’s obvious that it’s not true, yet you feel justified lying about millions of people you’ve never met Just because they’re not stupid enough to still have imaginary friends .

Now, Kelly, you should go have a long hard think ( think now, don’t believe…idiotic beliefs are what made you a liar) about why it is that you have such complete contempt for yourself that you would prove yourself to be a contemptible liar in front of everybody like this. You are doing *exactly* what the scumbag in the article is being rousted for. Now why would you be so stupid as to do that?

A MADE-UP perspective, as the perspective from which he was writing was what he IMAGINES atheists must be thinking.

Let’s also imagine for a minute that you had not been writing about atheism, that you had been writing about another faith that was not Christianity, and after trying unsuccessfully to proselytize you, this pastor started writing in the same way as someone who practiced your faith. You know, just making stuff up to explore “a different perspective.” “Well, my religion allows for killing babies. My religion sees no problem with murdering women for no reason.”

What he did was disrespectful and ignorant, and bordering on discriminatory and hateful. You can’t have any “perspective” if you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about where another faith or school of thought is concerned.

I really hope that beyond just issuing you several apologies, the pastor also went out of his way to read some Bertrand Russell or something and learn something about atheism beyond his prejudices. If your faith is really that strong, knowledge isn’t going to shatter it. Just- God forbid- expand your perspective.

Political groupies use the same tactic. They pretend they’re what they oppose and go way over the top.

AbbyNormal

This pastor’s comments reveal that he doesn’t really understand people who believe differently from him.

1. No pro-choice person I have ever known would ever say, “What’s wrong with killing babies?” Ever.

2. The atheists I know are highly moral, ethical, and compassionate. I once told an atheist friend whose house was slowly sliding down a hill that I would pray for him. His response: “I’d rather you direct your God’s attention to the children being slaughtered in Africa. I’m sure mothers over there are praying, too, for all the good it’s doing them.” Said friend donates tons of money to charity—compare this to the statistic that 20% of the congregation donates 80% of the support of the church, which presumably, hopefully, does community outreach.
(There’s a blog post on this here: http://www.thinkchristian.net/index.php/2008/12/12/escaping-the-2080-rule-of-church-life/)

So here’s this community of “believers” who don’t support with money what they believe in, which leads one to wonder if they help others in need at all. What is it exactly that they believe in?

Instead of targeting groups of people (prochoicers, atheists, homosexuals) with heaps of judgment, why not get to know one person from each group and find out why s/he believes differently from you?

AbbyNormal

I should clarify that his house was sliding at a rate of about an inch a year, and his walls were starting to crack, etc. It wasn’t sliding like a mudslide or anything. lol

Viridid

I largely agree with you, but I think the line between satire and strawman is pretty obvious. If someone can cross it without realising, then that person probably shouldn’t be attempting satire, since they clearly don’t have a good enough understanding of the subject under scrutiny.

In order to satirise something, you have to be familiar with it, and you have to express it in a way that is humourous. If what you’re saying isn’t funny in any way, then you aren’t doing satire, you’re just taking the piss. Nothing particularly wrong with that, but it’s not satire.

Um, I actually do clearly know what eugenics is. I have a feeling you have never heard of it before I mentioned it and then you Googled it. And you call me ignorant. Abortion is one of many tools that the globalists use for genetic population control — it’s in numerous official U.N. publications, as well as many other pro-globalist publications. They have brainwashed dull people like yourself over the years into accepting the notion that it is a “right” or a “choice” to take the life of other people, or to put it better, that there is any justification whatsoever to place a higher value on one’s life over another. I, on the other hand, have studied eugenics for years. You just learned what it means via Google…as pathetic as that is…

Eugenics is more than simple genetic engineering. It involves systematic population control to control genetics, and is a part of the globalism that is unfolding right before your blind-eyes-wide-shut.

Throwing all religion and politics aside, abortion is clearly a moral issue which places the value of one life over another. There isn’t really a need to add the occultist history behind it, although perhaps you may want to do your homework eventually. It might make for a more thoughtful argument, rather than just repeating the same old line, time after time…

As for whether or not life begins at conception, do the egg and sperm cells that are alive before conception, die after conception all the way until the baby is born –do they become alive again right before the baby is separated from the womb? It does not take a scientist nor the Pope to answer that simple question, only a sensible mind.

You people act as if a baby is just a parasite in the womb. You refer to it as cells.

Have you ever heard anyone ask a pregnant mother-to-be about her cells, or her fetus? It’s a baby!

Read my other comments. I said that a nine year old girl should not get an abortion, and I gave the reasons as to why — it is a matter of innocence vs. choice. A molested little girl did not choose to have sex, and giving birth will literally tear her insides apart. However, again, we are only talking about less than one percent of all abortions in that argument. I would call that a special exception.

I never even meant to place religion into the argument, except in response to what someone else already said. I believe that five nested replies are the limit on this website, so I have to start a newer thread for you to post your raging and hateful filth in order to bash me with…

Also, I never said that the mother is the evil person in this. It is the person performing the abortion that is truly evil. Do you have any idea how this procedure is done? There is nothing more medically insane or disgusting morally.

I just love how pro-abortion people get all crazy when someone actually has a thoughtful argument against it.

I agree the atheists’ fascination with christians is WHY they believe – in the face of overwhelming evidence/common sense against it, the many evil things attributed to god in the bible..(I could quote HUNDREDS of them) and yet you believe that christianity is a force for good. I was a former christian, but now that I’ve been out of it so long it’s hard for me to remember why I believed it, other than I always assumed what I had been taught was true. Once i started looking for myself, I realized more and more over time how absurd it was. But I feel the goodwill and sincerity from christians on this site. I know you really believe what you say. The question remains – why?

rainethecomposer

It is sad that someone an entire community of people look up to as a guide, would be so poorly grounded in his own morals and beliefs.

I do realize that pastors, like everyone else, are only human, but it is part of their chosen (or “called” as most say) profession to be extra careful in all they say, do, and, yes, even type.

It was good of you to call him on it, and even better for him to man-up and admit the mistakes.

With people like him out there giving religion a bad name it is hard for anyone to keep their faith in anything these days.

I think the pastor’s actions show more than just his own hypocrisy, that of Christians, etc. I think that this year we are just beginning to confront the damage that short-term thinking causes.

Every time I see a blog response–anywhere–where the person doesn’t have a clickable ID allowing me to see their own blog or an e-mail address to respond them directly, I KNOW there’s a high likelihood that this is a poster who doesn’t want me to take their words seriously and may just be “stuffing the ballot box” with a lot of name-calling and zero content to their argument.

Just last week, Jon Stewart gave us that nasty peek inside the mind of a hedge-fund manager (Jim Cramer) who believed it was alright to lower the market through selling and rumor-mongering in order to profit on short-selling. My 10th grade History teacher taught us about the evils of short selling and buying and selling a stock without ever truly owning a share. It was a major factor in the Depression of the ’30’s.

Yet, day traders of today will label themselves as necessary to the market.

In 12-step groups one of the messages is “principles over personalities.” When will our civil society realize that business has to follow the basic principle that short-term gains made using poor principles (or ignoring the good ones) are not gains worth having? We are going to be remembered as one of the nations that put off trying to stop global warming when we refused to sign an imperfect Kyoto Treaty. If business was going to be harmed by trying to solve our problems, will we value that business as highly as a Midwestern desert and an inundated Manhattan?

Scott Cheatham

Daniel, (and Mark)

It IS a religion. Religion uses a faith base to establish beliefs…beliefs that science cannot prove using the proven scientific method. We take things on faith.

An atheist has to have faith in their belief that there is NO God even though science cannot prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. A negative position as you assert would be more agnostic (no knowledge) leaning due to a lack of facts. An atheist, on the other hand, has facts but has formed a belief (i.e. faith) based on their subjective, yet reasoned thought, on the evidence at hand.

So it IS a religion. You have to have faith in your belief that there is NO deity.

Mark, I don’t care if you refer to me as a Holy Roller but please keep your comments in context. I did not criticize here but merely posted my thoughts. I may not be able to engage in a long debate simply because I have a job, I pastor a church, and am the father of three children who need help with homework each night. My time on the ‘net is limited to productive work and very little “surfing” to practice my apologetic. I take umbrage with your broad based comment about how “dumb” we appear. Perhaps some here have made silly comments and do not have much intellectual property to defend them but they do not speak for all of Christianity.

What I find dumb is a belief system that bases itself on random chance being the reason all of this that we experience is here. That no intelligent hand designed anything but we all just morphed into being over millions of years. What I find dumb is how these same people will point to science and yet the scientific record cannot validate their faith. Carbon dating is flawed and we still have many missing links in the Darwin chain that cannot be explained. I do not point and laugh as I’ve seen done here but I sincerely look for educated answers from this group and rarely receive them. What I usually get back is some slanderous remark about how dumb my belief system is and how smart theirs is. That’s not an idea exchange…That’s elementary trash talking.

I TOO PREFER TO DISCUSS THE CROOKED CANADIAN EVANGELICALS AND THE BAD POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES FIRST, THE INITIAL TOPIC I HAD ADDRESSED, FOR JUDGMENT BEGINS IN THE HOUSE OF GOD FIRST. CONSERVATIVES NEED TO REMOVE THE BEAM OUT OF THEIR OWN EYES BEFORE THEY TRY TO HELP OTHERS STILL TOO. THEY NEED TO BE FREED FROM THE BONDAGE OF CRITICAL SPIRIT, HATRED AND ABUSIVE NAME-CALLING. THE TRUTH IS THE CONSERVATIVES DO HAVE AN AGENDA, TO HIDE THE TRUTH AS TO WHO THEY REALLY ARE BY DIVERTING IT TO AN ATTACK ON OTHERS AND THEY NEXT DO TRY FORCE THEIR UNSOLICITED MUSINGS AND OPINIONATED RUBBISH ON OTHER PEOPLE -THEY DO HAVE HAVE TO STOP THEIR ABUSIVE HARASSMENT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE JUST FED UP OF IT.

THE CONSERVATIVES’ MAIN STRATEGY THESE DAYS STILL WRONGFULLY TOO SEEMS TO BE A PERSONAL ATTACK ON OTHERS, BULLYING, BASHING AND TRYING REAL HARD TO FIND SOME, ANY DIRT UPON OTHERS. THEY CLEARLY TEND TO HAVE AN ATTACK APPROACH, AN OFFENSE IS A SUPPOSEDLY best defense for them, BUT STILL it is offensive approach, for you know how they do threat others is next how they will also treat you,. They CONSERVATIVES ARE Getting real desperate still and have again sunk to a new low

>THE RECORD DOES NOT LIE … OFTEN IT MERELY TWISTS THE TRUTH, DISTORTS IT ..
> I AM UN-MASKING YOU AND REBUKING YOU …. AWAY WITH YOUR SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS
>KEEP YOU conservative self-righteousness on your own blog…

YES THAT WAS AN INSULT, LIE TOO, ME BEING CALLED A CONSERVATIVE EVEN by him.. EVEN YOU ALL DO KNOW I AM NOT A CONSERVATIVE. that would Be a BIG insult to me.

IT IS JUST AS INSULTING AS CALLING CANADA’S PRIME MINISTER STEPHEN HARPER A CHRISTIAN, WHO UNDENIABLY IS a wolf in sheep clothing, an liar, an abuser, an ungodly person, and GOING TO HELL, HE TOO NEEDS TO GROW UP… Now do all deal with it appropriately cause he and not me is bringing shame to the CONSERVATIVE name and even the the body of Christ.. he Harper clearly lies when he says he advocates peace, he himself promotes hate instead.. he LIKE MANY OTHER CONSERVATIVES needs to first take the beam out of his own eye before he can humbly help others.

Many people have it wrong for they do think they have a right to abuse others with their free speech even on the net now too.. when someone aggressively now wants his right to be heard but he also starts to fight with me.. in a clearly unloving manner I do rightfully too merely delete his post too.. if he persist I do often bring the matters often to others for their attention and action now too..

Like I have rightfully often said to you the political Conservatives these days are great examples of what the typical phony, no good, lying, abusive, professing Conservative Christians now really are like. Yes often all I get now is continual condemnations, slanders, insults, bad words, and no real love from the conservatives THESE DAYS .. they need to now grow up and act like real Christians.. examine themselves firstly if the fruits of the holy sprit are there.. cause clearly they are not. What they often do accuse me off very likely they are conscious cause these are their own realties.. sad too..

If I was them I would be rightfully ashamed to pretend to be a Christian to others. Now they need to repent and Get a real life in Jesus still.
I do not have to accept any abuses of any kind.. from anyone now too.. anyone. NOT ESPECIALLY FROM PASTORS.

(Mat 18:14 KJV) Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

(Mat 18:15 KJV) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

(Mat 18:16 KJV) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

(Mat 18:17 KJV) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church:

It’s like talking to a brick wall… The New World Order is not a Christian fundamentalist conspiracy theory. It involves all people. You have proven to me that you are totally brainwashed. It actually has nothing to do with the Bible in my view, and I am not a fundamentalist Christian, whatever that even means.

I suppose that the link I left to Google News with hundreds of mainstream articles about the announcement of the New World Order isn’t enough for you to wake up. Many of the articles suggest that the NWO will be wonderful and save us all from chaos.

It is openly being announced in mainstream publications such as Time, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, by Gordon Brown, Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, both Bush’s, Henry Kissinger, Lou Dobbs — ALL CONSPIRACY THEORISTS RIGHT?

There are just a few links to get you started. There are hundreds more, and if you actually take the time to accept the truth, rather than make fun of me for actually telling it, you will find so much more of it.

If that doesn’t convince you, then I do not know what I can do to help you. By the way, there is no such thing as “liberal media”. There is also no such thing as a left vs. right paradigm. That is only a myth for people to be distracted about the truth. NYT, WJS, LAT, Fox, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, BBC, and so forth have very little difference, and they are all controlled corporate media, in other words, the news you get from them is the news that they want you to see, and only the news that they WANT you to see.

The NWO is not a conspiracy theory, only a conspiracy. It has nothing to do with Christianity. But I love how you tried to categorize me with “those people.”

Yes, I happen to be a Christian, as are most Americans, but that has very little to do with anything I’ve talked about here. And I never once called myself a “conservative.” I do not subscribe to linear politics. And I realize that there is very little difference between Democrats and Republicans, especially since Obama is continuing most of the Bush policy, and almost every Republican and Democrat voted for the Patriot Act and the unnecessary war in Iraq that has killed over a million Iraqis — a war that did not end on Inauguration Day, despite campaign promises.

No, I am not a pastor. I can appreciate that humor of the sarcasm and the cynicism, but when it comes to the NWO, that is truly no laughable matter.

By the way, how did we get so far off topic? Oh yeah, you were trying to smear my character.

herald7

Well, I definitely don’t believe in deception to prove a point.

However, that statement was not too far removed from reality. Most abortions happen because of poverty and too many mouths to feed. Plus, if there is no right and wrong, abortion would be fine. Furthermore, murder, slavery and theft would be fine too. Choice is not enough. There has to be compassion in the choice, for all parties (woman and baby).

illgobby

What that guy did wasn’t cool. But be careful not to characterize All christians as liars. Just as with any other group of people, there’s going to be someone who does wrong things. I’m a born again believer and I try to do the right thing, not all of us are bad.

A generous comment to the many Conservative bashers, bullies, that would be even more politically correct in troublesome times is that they now are getting what they had sowed starting in the once Bible belt of Alberta.. but not limited to there now too..

It was in Alberta where I had encountered, experienced now the most crooked pastors too.. and I next rightfully also did not let them get away with it. Or anywhere else for that matter..

“genocide, murders, rapes, and baby-killing of the psychopathic god of the bible.”

Janet, Jesus did not do any of these things. He stood against them. PEOPLE did these things. Faith isn’t the problem, human beings are.

herald7

Plus Janet, the God of the Old Testament may have done things that we consider objectionable now. But at the time, people saw that as a God being just and fair to his people. As opposed to the previous gods who only cared about making people wimper with fear.

We can’t just read the Bible, it needs to be probably understood and analyzed.

Agreed Christiandom has produced completely despicable and ugly things (slavery, genocide, etc.). However reason has produced many terrible things as well (nuclear bombs, Hitler/Nazis, etc).
I must also note that in the black community, Christianity has produced some of the greatest american humanitarians. (Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, Sojourner Truth, W.E.B. Dubois, Rev C.T. Vivian, Dr. Martin Luther King, Rev. Robert Graetz, James Cone, Cornell West, Michael Eric Dyson, etc.)
the bible talks about following the “spirit of the law” rather than just the “letter of the law” and ultimately I think this is what accounts for such drastic differences in interpretation. 2 Corinthians chp 3 talks about how the letter of the law (fundamentalist literalism) kills and brings death.
I think it is hard to argue that people who have shaped their life after Christ rather than merely following a bunch of ancient rules are less intellectual, less compassionate, or less humanitarian than the rest of the society. I think that history will suggest the opposite.
Surely, this will not convince anyone to suddenly follow Jesus, but rather hopefully it can at least build bridges between those who care about the mutual benefits of serving all humanity and creating a better society now and for the future.
The conservative moment does not reflect the life of Jesus at all, rather if anything it mirrors the lives of the Pharisees, Jesus’ constant opponents.

Typical. This is the evil of Christianity—it’s okay to do anything, all you have to do is say sorry. No accountability, no responsibility, and if it causes human suffering here on earth, why that’s okay too. Because it doesn’t matter if you suffer here, your rewards are in heaven. What a load of bs. He only apologized because he got caught. Truth is the bible thumpers can’t tell if something is right or wrong unless they are specifically told.

“OK Herald – let me clarify. You are saying that it used to be ok for God to command horrible acts because it was culrural. You are saying that God’s morality is not timeless”

I am saying people’s interpretation of God is not timeless. Catholicism teaches that our interpretation of God changes and expands as we grow as a people and as a culture. Again, neither believers nor athiests should take the Bible as the main world on faith. :)

herald7

“OK Herald – let me clarify. You are saying that it used to be ok for God to command horrible acts because it was culrural. You are saying that God’s morality is not timeless”

I am saying people’s interpretation of God is not timeless. Catholicism teaches that our interpretation of God changes and expands as we grow as a people and as a culture. Again, neither believers nor athiests should take the Bible as the main word on faith. :)

doesntworkthatway

“Righteous indignation is a mean between envy and spite, and these states are concerned with the pain and pleasure that are felt at the fortunes of our neighbours; the man who is characterized by righteous indignation is pained at undeserved good fortune, the envious man, going beyond him, is pained at all good fortune, and the spiteful man falls so far short of being pained that he even rejoices.” — Aristotle

“Anger is a gift.” — Zach de la Rocha

LRA

Exactly! My anger is moral in its basis. It indicates my judgment of wrong doing by people who supposedly espouse truth seeking and moral integrity.

Hitler’s assumptions were also based on what was believed to be scientific evidence proving superiority of some and inferiority of others. But that misses the point all together, unless you claim that no atrocities are by-products of enlightenment or rationalistic thinking???

My point is.. people are people and do wrong to one another out of selfishness, for personal gain, etc. It is not just religious people that do wrong to one another. however, People historically who shape their life after Christ practically and relevantly in the 21st century have a much different story than the literalistic fundamentalist religion posing as Christianity.

herald7

“@Herald7 – ok – so you do not believe that the bible is God-inspired or god-written? Obviously you don’t. Do you consider yourself a christian? On what basis? (I’m not trying to be a smartass here – I really don’t know – every christian I know believes that the bible is the inspired and holy word of god so I don’t know where you’re coming from). There is no point in arguing the veracity of the bible if you don’t believe it either. Then you and I are on the same page.”

It’s OK, I don’t you’re not being a smartass, hehe. It’s just that some denominations of Christianity take the Bible more literally than others. Catholics believe the Bible was God-inspired, but we also know that the humans who wrote it were occasionally wrong. Like my religion textbook as a kid said people in the bible who were said to be possessed by demons were probably just mentally ill.

Catholics take the Bible very seriously but they also take other things into account to that have been accumulated over the centuries. This concept is called “Tradition.” Like the Bible says all unbelievers are doomed. Just the other my priest was saying that doesn’t mean non-Christians are all going to Hell. It is recongized that good works are more important than your particular religion.

Now human beings aren’t perfect and obviously these rules haven’t always been followed through history. But the same can be said of all religious and all athiests. We all fail sometimes. Don’t judge others based on the actions of a few. ;)

herald7

*Correction: I meant to say “I don’t think you’re being a smartass, hehe.”

I agree, it was pseudo-science that Hitler had. And by the way that’s a great show and a great quote, however the problem is none of us can approach science without bias. We are all bringing something to the table when we “interpret” the evidence. The mere hypothesis we choose will always be directing our thinking, along with our own baggage, presuppositions, context, and community we were raised in. Neither Faith nor Science have the ability to be fully objective, science will always remain a subjective field, which is why our understanding of facts is constantly changing in the field of science.

herald7

I don’t mind people discussing Hitler and all but my personal opinion is that Hitler was insane and not a good example of either science or faith. ;)

No need to get aggravated… just trying to dialogue, if you have some insights I am more than open to hearing you. And you are right, I am not in the field of science, however as I understand it, interpretation is apart of the human experience. I do not carry the belief that individuals have the capacity to hold completely objective views. So even when the facts are the same, people can conclude drastically different things. Potentially if we ever had all the pieces to the puzzle (the data) then we could potentially put it all together in a way that was ultimately conclusive. Yet if I understood you right, you admit that we do not have access to all the data, because we continue to find more and more, which changes our interpretation and conclusion.
I guess I just am not modernist enough to go with the science reveals all stuff. Science is helpful, it has given us lots of break-throughs, but it is still a limited field because it always will involve limited people.

I am amazed at the misquotes of the Bible that are stated in this blog. God is a just God. He created mankind and does not have to justify His actions to anyone. Period. He created life and He created laws, which time and time again have been abused by man. He attempted many times (in the old testament) to appeal to the hearts of man, He warned them to turn back to Him, many times to no avail. His wrath came after warning – man had his chance. Life is like that. No one – Christian or not, can deny that consequences, both good and bad, are a result of our actions. No one can argue that. It is fact. Some in society today want to do what they please with no consequence but that doesn’t mean they will get away with things simply because it just doesn’t work that way. Take for example the law of gravity. It is a law that is there and we are to obey it, work in harmony with it. Let’s say a sign on top of a building tells us not to go too close to the edge. If we do, we fall off because of gravity. Have we broken the law of gravity by denying it? No – the law of gravity has actually broken us because it is and always will be… much like the living God. God is and always will be.

The mention of slavery is also taken out context. The Bible was not pro-slavery – especially in the sense that our society uses the word or views slavery. Jesus himself, God in the flesh, washed the feet of his disciples. His teaching was that a master is not greater than his slave and that the meek shall inherit the earth. Jesus came to redeem us because man is incapable of being sinless. Even Peter, one of His most beloved disciples, denied knowing the Lord when faced with consequences of admitting to being His follower. But God forgave Peter and God will forgive anyone who comes to Him with a repentant heart and asks for forgiveness.

There is no other God or belief in this world that offers that kind of unconditional love and forgiveness. Only Christ alone offers and can provide that. He is awesome!

So whether you choose to believe it or not, or follow it or not, just like the example of gravity, choosing not to believe in something does not make it untrue. It just means that you will suffer the consequences that comes from not complying, and not reap the benefits (blessings & favour) of working in harmony with it.

@Janet Greene
Agreed, there is definitely a difference with trying to be objective or not. And for that I can not go into a lab to reproduce any results, that would by nature be the opposite of faith. My “attempt” at objectivity with my faith comes through personal experience. It is my experience of living a life in pursuit of Christ that has satisfied my unsatisfied and longing soul, and therefore a trust in a higher being. It is my experience of looking out into the universe that leads me to feel like their is a Creator of all things. And it is in moments of true pain and suffering that I have felt the comfort of God. Those things can not be duplicated nor measured. You can’t pick it up and weigh it, and they clearly can be debated and believed or not believed. But given my personal experiences it seems foolish for me to not believe in God. I can understand why others might not… I have a question everything approach, and I personally questioned many things myself, and why I believe. i surely have not “tried out every religion and spiritual path” and I am sure you have not either, right? But it is my experiences that bear witness to God and my faith that has confirmed those things to me. And so I trust, hope, and have faith in something greater than what I can touch, in a God that I believe does exist. Does that at least make sense, whether not you believe it or not? I just want to help you understand where I am coming from.

herald7

“Is the author lying, or is Leviticus 25 the direct word of God?”

Again, not all Christians take all of the Bible literally. They some of it symbolically and keep in mind its historical context.

herald7

“The problem is that Christians cannot agree on which parts are symbolic and which are not. What is symbolic to one set of Christians is considered to non-symbolic by others, and vive versa.

As I said before, you have to posses the rare gift of infallibility to be sure you have it right.”

You’re right, it’s a complicated thing. But just because we don’t have infallibility right now doesn’t mean it’s all nonesense. Life isn’t about always being sure you are right. Too much evil has persisted in the world from people (believers and nonbelievers) who were SURE they were right.

The minute you are absolutely sure you are right is the day you stopped thinking. That goes for believers and athiests.

iamtheenemy

LRA,

I’m sure the Jews wished that people made it their business.

Calling a baby your body doesn’t make the baby not a baby.

It sounds like you made the choice that we made. I decided I had to be a doctor, that there was nothing more important so I killed my child over it, my wife doing the same thing. However, like most people who talk about their abortions openly, after the abortion, nothing mattered anymore.

LRA, have you see the movie Lake of Fire – or seen abortions performed? It’s very hard to argue it isn’t a child when you’ve seen it. Are you hiding from that, or have you just hardened yourself to the reality.

I don’t know how old you are now, but it took 14 years before we could finally face our aboritions. We told ourselves since we were 19 and 20 that there was no way for us to do anything else. And I’ll bet our families were poorer than yours, I didn’t think people existed in the US who were as poor as my wife’s family. We got pregnant with our daughter less than a year later and we knew that all we told ourselves about needing to get that PhD etc. was a lie we’d told ourselves. You’re now vested in your decision, you did have a choice and you made the wrong one but I’m not talking like someone who doesn’t understand – my wife’s putting the kids to bed right now, she’d happily tell you the same thing but you wouldn’t listen from her or anyone – even though she’s been pregnant and had an abortion. Have you had children? have you looked into their eyes knowing what it really means to have killed one just like them – their siblings? Be honest with yourself, the university will just convince you that you are wise in your own eyes, where does the relativism stop – at one point do we stop saying that murder is an individual decision that no one can ever question? It’s a bunch of bunk and we all know it but we don’t want to face being non-PC or giving up our dreams which turn to nightmares under the abortionist’s knife.

I hope some day can face what you’ve done and truly help people someday by helping them give up their child for adoption.

By the way we’ve been foster parents to three children for 18 months and we are seeking to adopt special needs children. So we do quite a bit for the other side of this.

Anyway, I’m signing off now, because I’m pretty short on time – I don’t know if the comments about drive-by comments are about me, but I don’t know many people who have five kids and who are foster parents and who do counseling of pre and post-abortion women (as well as other sorts of volunteering) and work full-time (and homeschool) who can sit all day on a blog like this. Besides, who really has time to blog anyway, especially if no one’s going to hear.

I encourage all of you to stop reciting to yourself these canned lines you’ve been taught all your lives and honestly investigate this issue.

herald7

*Correction: “I will explain, but please do not accuse me of things, otherwise I will not debate at all.”

Man, it’s too late at night to be debating, lol.

herald7

Btw, a thought to both believers and nonbelievers: a little tolerance of different opinions goes a long way. ;)

herald7

“The point about the guilt is that the Christians are CREATING it– just as “Iamtheenemy” tried to do to me just now. It is very wrong! I have NO shame over what I did. It was the RIGHT CHOICE for me. I am not pro-abortion, I am pro-CHOICE.”

There are plenty of women who regret abortions who are not Christian. Many pro-choice people acknowledge that abortion is a very sad decision to have to make. Is it so odd and strange then to feel badly afterward? Whether you think a fetus is a person or not, it is a life. Why is compassion for a life suddenly an unnatural thing?

It’s one thing to say abortion is a choice some women feel they have to make. It’s another to say there’s nothing to feel badly about.

I don’t agree with your decision at all, but I still respect you as a human being and will treat you as such. :)

herald7

“If this event is in doubt, then the entire Bible is in doubt. If Leviticus 25 cannot be trusted to accurately relay the word of God, then the Ten Commandments cannot be trusted to accurately relay the word of God.”

I understand what you’re saying. Thing is, that’s a very “all or nothing” attitude and life just isn’t like that. Many Christians believe that some of the Bible are stories based around real events, with very important meanings. These were early peoples trying to understand the world and their main way of communicating was through stories. These stories were often fantastic and exaggerrated because they were attempting to deliver an important message. That is how people communicated, through oral tradition.

As for the slavery thing again, in Christianity it is called The Old Testament because Jesus refutted certain parts of it. Christians respect the Old Testament but feel Jesus corrected some things about it in The New Testament.

claidheamh mor

I love all people. : )

Seriously, your past verbal attacks invalidate that.

Unbanned =/= didn’t happen.

herald7

Again, I say to people of ALL points of view on this board (including myself), a little tolerance and understanding of different opinions goes a long way. And we shouldn’t stereotype groups just because we disagree with them. ;)

herald7

“That is Crap, if people practiced responsible sexual behavior all of the time, the situation with aids would not be as bad as it is in Africa at this time.”

Um yes, I said that in the same post you just quoted.

herald7

I’m going to take a break from this Blog for awhile. The Blog itself always has very interesting ideas. But the amount of utter hate and lack of understanding from people of all points of view in the comments section is staggering.

Of course that does not speak for everyone here. I have enjoyed debating with many people here and still respect everyone’s opinions. :)

Eat The Rich

Christianity is a virus of the mind. It slowly takes over the host and attempts to multiply by infecting other hosts. All christians should be shot to protect the rest of us normal, healthy people.

gina94984

to LRA-

i appreciate your post on the status of the number of souls attributable to a hermaphrodite, chimera or “merged twin” (people born with multiple body parts but only one head).

this brings to mind the question of what happens to the souls of miscarried and stillborn conceptions, since according to catholic doctrine, baptism must be performed for entry into heaven. purgatory?

Sock

@LRA and Enemy

I’ve read your comments to each other, and I’ve been thinking about both your stances for a couple days now. I’ve made a few comments, but I want to take this moment to make a real comment of my own.

First, I am pro-choice. So, I will start with this.

@Enemy. Your wife had an abortion, and you both feel regret over that decision. You said that neither of you were able to provide the right life for the child that you aborted, and further it would’ve been a real problem for both of you and the path you were currently on. She was in school, and you were working on your PhD. You now counsel others. What is the purpose of this counseling? To comfort afterwards, or convince them not to have an abortion at all?

Regardless. You said that your family serves as a foster family for orphaned children, and that’s admirable. It really is! But I also feel that I need to point this out.

If not for the abortion, the chances of you having the lifestyle that you have now are slim. You and your wife would’ve had to adjust your goals and lives, and it’s possible that you’d have run into problems with schooling, and how would you be able to do what you’re doing now without enough money as a result of your schooling?

Since your wife had a poor background, supporting the child monetarily would’ve been very hard. It’s possible that you would’ve had to give up on your PhD in order to bring in money to properly care for that child. So, as a result of that abortion, you’ve been able to provide a MUCH HIGHER quality of life for not just your own children afterward, but the orphans that you also foster. So, in my eyes, while the abortion is regrettable, it was also the lesser evil. It was the best decision you could’ve made at that point. The only better decision would’ve been to have practiced safe sex, but that’s another point entirely.

Yes, no one -wants- to have an abortion. But in some situations, like yours, it’s a true blessing to have it available.

Now, it’s true that you could’ve put that child up for adoption. However, that’s an even harder thing to do than have an abortion, far harder, and there’s no promise that adoption will end up providing a better life than non-existence. Orphanages (even though they’re not called that anymore) aren’t always great places for children to grow up. There are also a lot of terrible foster homes for children to be sent to. While I’ll agree that a majority of children who’re given up for adoption do end up in healthy homes… there are more children who need to be adopted than there are people willing to adopt them. Until the supply and demand changes, abortion is a better option.

Further, you really don’t have any right telling people how they should feel about anything. If you’re trying to project and force your feelings on other, then you’re guilty of emotional rape. No matter how hard you try, you cannot make people feel the way that you want them to feel.

Also, LRA is pro-choice. Not pro-abortion. There’s a strong difference there. Pro-Choice means that people have abortion as an option if they’re ever in that situation that you were in with your wife.

@LRA. I’ve made previous comments about how I would feel if my wife/girlfriend got pregnant, and we were considering an abortion, and I would like to rephrase that.

If my wife/girlfriend was pregnant, then I feel that I would be entirely within my rights to tell her how I feel about abortion or keeping the child. Suppose that I wanted her to keep it. I would argue for that, and let her know how I feel.

She, however, would be the ONLY one who gets to make the decision in the end. If she decided to abort the child anyways, even if I wanted to keep it, that would be fine. I’d be sad, but that would be her decision, not mine.

And in reverse, if I wanted an abortion, and she wanted to keep it… then I feel that the right thing to do is to support the child, regardless of how I felt on the abortion issue. That’s where I stand. In no way does the man have equal say in it, but how he feels should be taken into consideration when the decision is made.

herald7

I agree Sock, people talk about adoption all the time but it’s really a very difficult decision, even more difficult than abortion I imagine. But that’s why it’s so amazing and wonderful when people do it. ;)

I do not agree with abortion and don’t see it as a lesser of two evils. It is the symptom of a much larger problem. Most abortions happen in poverty striken areas. If more people got support and means of escape, they wouldn’t have that awful decision to make.

That’s why I don’t vote Republican, because even when they claim to be pro-life, they are doing nothing about the problem.

I don’t vote Democrat either for the record, I’m purely independent. ;)

Frank

Daniel, You were never a true Christian, NOR were you ever a true Scotsman.

Ok I gave it a second chance, but I really am done with this board forever.

You say you want to convert people? You will not do so by calling people liars, laughing and scoffing at them and accusing them of horrible things just because you don’t understand. I realize not everyone has done this. But it’s clearly the general feeling of this board.

In many ways I admire the athiest way of thinking. But healthy debate is not about being so cruel to people. You have now failed to convert a believer, even one who agreed with you in many ways….

Somegreencat

I have to say I have read most of the comments on this post and saw nothing I would call serious personnel attacks by anyone. Yeah there might have been some since I deleted a few hundred comments from my email. I just get the feeling that herald7 usually goes to sites which are probably one sided and they are usually on the side she is on. She isn’t used to having her statements questioned as she got here. I have to agree with all those that asked if slavery isn’t what god meant then how can you know anything else in the bible is what he meant.

ficklepeach

I have a really odd question that probably will take a Christian two seconds to answer (if people will still take the time to read this). I’m completely confused by your concept of hell and who exactly is controlling things (down) there… Is Satan’s eternal punishment to rule over and torture the damned? Is it something he wanted to do? This seems so odd when it is supposed to be Satan’s fault that someone is down there… Someone doesn’t believe in God? Well hey! That’s exactly what Satan wanted to happen. So why would he punish the people who are on his side? What kind of joy would he get out of torturing people who have the same views as he/she does? Just reading this, I feel stupid, but that’s not going to stop me from asking, I guess.
-Confused but still hopeful

Ty

I notice that when people began posting very good explanations of where morality comes from without requiring a god, all the pastor types seem to have disappeared.

Typical. When the cheap shots and one liners fail, they have nothing left in the bag of tricks.

Janet Greene

@John – I spent years trying to “love God/Jesus”. It simply was not possible. I cannot love on command; and I cannot love a being that I have never seen, felt, heard, touched, anything. I prayed earnestly that I would have faith; waited for something to happen. Personally, I believe that this love from “God” that you feel is something natural within humans. We attribute things to God that are really “us”. I found this out when I rejected god/christianity – I had the same feelings as before. Overall, I have a better general sense of “well-being”, but I love people who actually exist and whom I have relationships with. And I know what you will say – that you have a “relationship” with god. And I believe you. In the same way that a child has a relationship with an invisible friend. They really, really believe that friend is there. They talk to them, laugh with them, play with them. It’s amazing -t the power of the mind and what we can convince ourselves of. The truth is, none of us have a relationship with “god”. You can talk all you want but there is no answer “up there”. I do believe that there is “something”, but none of us knows what it is. But a conscious God, who can read our thoughts and make magic happen, no. If that kind of God existed, there would be no debate. We would all know about it. Any god who makes it so debatable, and the evidence so against his existence, clearly does not want humankind to know about it. Bottom line – I’m so much happier since I gave up all that hookey! :)

If it is not a strategy, I hope the church will deal kindly to her own kind for the sake of his wife and children.

Janet Greene

@Mike – I should clarify – at the time, I was a “backslidden” christian. I believed that christianity was absolutely true, but as a young adult I wanted to have fun first. I just assumed I would have to straighten out my act so I wouldn’t burn in hell or be left behind in teh rapture! So I wasn’t actively christian at the time I became a coke addict.

I agree that many christians are addictive (usually secretly). I have found out why. The tenets of christianity tend to diminish normal brain functioning. I’m not kidding. When normal human reasoning, emotions, and sexuality are squashed, and we are forced to believe things that could not be logically true (ie God loves you unconditionally, God kills without reason, God will send you to hell if you don’t take certain steps, but don’t forget how much god loves you) the hormones in our brain get out of balance. Christianity talks a lot about joy, mercy and love, but ultimately it is about guilt and fear. Guilt – that we are sinful and need forgiveness – and fear – if we don’t get salvation we will burn forever. These are not healthy foundations for living. If you want a much better description that this about how christianity screws up our brains so that we become addicted (in an attempt to self-medicate), see Celia Murray Dunn “Religion that Harms, Religion that Heals”.

Since I rejected christianity (it was a slow process – took years of reading and searching for truth), I no longer struggle with drug addiction. The guilt and fear of my upbringing is slowly leaving me. I can celebrate life without the paranoia that some god is reading my thoughts! They are my private thoughts now, and it’s wonderful. I am no longer on anti-depressants either. I’m not suppressing myself anymore, so I’m able to fill that spiritual void now.

Ken

I give kudos for the Pastor’s final response and willingness to acknowledge he messed up. To me that says a lot about his character, a lot of folks would just dig in. What he did was wrong and was a cheap shot for certain, and it took a lot of pressure to get him to fess up. Not sure if he finally did because of fear for fallout at his church or a genuine sense of remorse, but at least he publicly admitted his wrong doing. I agree he should be given a 2nd chance!

The best response to the religion – morality question was from Lyndon Lamborn, a Mormon excommunicated when he accidentally discovered the “real” Joseph Smith and refused to keep quiet. He said, “I am a better Christian as an atheist that I ever was as a Mormon.”

That captures the essence of the “debate” over the origin of morals. The biggest problem is the ignorance (I say this nicely) of those who think history corresponds with the Biblical tale: God created Adam about 6,000 years old and while he was at it, gave us our morals. I am still surprised when I hear this and always ask, “Have you ever heard of fossils?” LOL

Passerby

Just stumbled this blog and found a very interesting discussion, hi all.

Just wanted to say, I am an athiest/agnostic but I am a pretty strict moralist; there is a basic code of human behaviour which is completely independent of religion.

Broadly speaking all religions share one over-riding philosophy – ‘the Golden Rule’ – basically summed up as ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’.

Christianity is not unique and can’t really be held up as superior or even particularly unusual. Most would agree the ten commandments are at its core. Funnily enough they vary among Judeo Christian religions as you can see from the table halfway down this wikipedia page

4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 are all facets of the Golden Rule. Hence they are either specifically shared or at least unlikely to be disputed by any of the world’s religions as rules of behaviour. They are all quite simple rules for harmonious social interaction. I don’t think its a coincidence that they emerged as laws alongside the spread of urban living following the agricultural revolution and the end of hunter gathering as a way of life.

1, 2 and 3 are different, they provide rules with the purpose of serving the religion itself. 1 is a declaration of monotheism and both 2 and 3 are designed to encourage respect for the monotheistic deity in question. So they’re only moral commands within the context of the religion.

It’s been shown that music is innate, the pentatonic scale for instance is universal, I couldn’t say ‘the golden rule’ is conclusively universal but it does seem to be fairly ubiquitous and evolved independently in several places. Does anyone really think that when Moses proclaimed the ten commandments (if, of course, he did) the people said “oh yeah – we never thought of that – let’s not kill, steal or lie ever again!” For me the most likely scenario is that these rules already existed as ‘common sense’ or as part of earlier common law, then were co-opted by the emergent religion to eventually become inseparable.

All human societies have rules of behaviour. It’s seemingly instinctive for people to anthropomorphise these concepts into deities, and to invent all sorts of myths which surround them. It is perhaps useful to invent an omnipotent policeman god to help enforce the rules and wield both a carrot (heaven) and stick (hell). The deities and stories change, but the broad thrust of what is moral and what is immoral does not.

For me, religion itself is immoral (this is a bold statement it would take an even bigger post to justify so I won’t try just now). I want my kids to develop empathy – they should refrain from lying, stealing, killing etc because they don’t want to cause harm, not because they think some big frightening God will burn them up.

The Medium Lebowski

Looks like he’s still the pastor of his flock of sheeple.

Gary L Varnam

I believe that there is this thing call The Force. It isn’t God nor an old man in the sky. The Force binds the galexies togather. It produces life. You can’t find it in the bible. Yes it was featured on Star Wars. However I think that George Lucas learned the truth and used Star Wars as a front to tell this truth. I also believe in reincarnation and an after life on the astral plane. Other then than that the scientist has got everything right. Also the Athiests are mostly on everyrthing else. There are a lot of bullshitters out there who thinks they know it all! As for lieing pastor’s, Christainity is a complete fabercation built on lies!