Gather round you people while I balance the scales,On the roots of rap and the Ancient Tales,If you don't know the rootsfrom the trunk of the tree,then you won't know the branchor what the fruit will be.

You've got to first understand the surrounding mystery,of Rap and it's relation to so-called history.History is distorted,And it ain't all thereSo lets examine the truthSo we can clear the air.

Now way back in the jungles of the African Lands,Where the roots of rap first began,Before the time of the scribes Just the Word was heard,And the voice was the choiceLike the song of the bird

They stood out among the peoplefrom the various tribes,Wise story-telling sages, who preserved the vibes,They would gather all the peoplewho would throng around,from the village to the bush,into the rural town.

For hours and hours, And days on end,They unravelled their stories from Beginning to End.They knew about the why,And they knew about the then,And they were known all around As the Gruyot Men.

Gather round you people while I balance the scales,On the roots of rap and the Ancient Tales,If you don't know the rootsfrom the trunk of the tree,then you won't know the branchor what the fruit will be.

History is distorted,And it ain't all thereSo lets examine the truthSo we can clear the air.

Now way back in the jungles of the African Lands,Where the roots of rap first began,Before the time of the scribes Just the Word was heard,And the voice was the choiceLike the song of the bird

They stood out among the peoplefrom the various tribes,Wise story-telling sages, who preserved the vibes,They would gather all the peoplewho would throng around,from the village to the bush,into the rural town.

For hours and hours, And days on end,They unravelled their stories from Beginning to End.They knew about the why,And they knew about the then,And they were known all around As the Gruyot Men.

- Radio National a few years ago.

I can't remember who it was.

If it was broadcast on the radio, how did you get the words, did you write them down at the time? I can't find any record of this poem on google.

can't agree with any reason that any current [or past] hip-hopster/rapper is equal to zappa on almost any level; you say tupak was the best, maybe so but almost everthing he did was done before, including the sampling, inflamatory lyrics, political lyrics, the whole west coast vs. east coast rap rivalry started in the 80's, man that shit's going on the proverbial 2 tours old ... when zappa flamed someone, it wasn't just another cycle of i fucked your wife/my rhymes are dopest

you say the music is just 1 synth, 1 drum machine and a 70s sample ... where's the talent in that setup¿ pretty narrow measure of musicality and originality, why lean on & butcher a familiar 70s sample rather than coming up with something original ... with the way all those blokes use the same fucking hand gesture[s] over & over; hate to say it but tupie & the all the rest of the those children are poor unfortunate victims of systems beyond their control, they're neatly arranged & marketed into a product that relies on equal parts flash, shock value & hype, rather than let the music stand on it's own; zappa, for the most part, was about the music ... where would those dudes be without mtv

influence on other musicians & the rest of society in general: zappa is huge, & his legacy will be alive far into the future

will there ever be another zappa ¿ possible but not likely; tupie has a very narrow following ... the next wanker will come along soon enough & find a way to rap louder/faster because every beginning rapper sits at home and listens to tupie wanking away at phenomenal speed with perfect rhymes and thoroughly acceptable execution, and when that homie, with his first mic (him and the 1,000,000 other ones), says to himself: sheee-it, we can do that & proceeds to memorize every awe-inspiring word, and then raps it faster, slicker, hipper & smoother [maybe gets his 32nd-notes up to around a dotted whole note = 208]...not only that, he transposes it up a minor third, steals some of his bitch's clothes, gets a dj job in a 2-bit club, gets discovered, gets a record contract (with an advance 10 times bigger), makes an album with a better budget because he's going to be the next big thing, according to the executives at the record company, and they don't mind spending a little extra for real talent ... not only that; tupak figured out he can't rap any faster because he got coked-out on the royalties of his 1st big-selling album [and he still had to record 2 more according to the bail-bond/record contract] ... meanwhile the guy with his pussy clothes on & new tatoos gets his album out on the street, it sells 20,000,000 copies, and somewhere out there, there's 10,000,000 other young guys with their first mics and they're listening to even more re-packaged/recycled wank, and they're saying...

individuality: zappa defined his own category, but was also tops in other categories; tupak may have had the best moves & smoothest rhymes, but he's just a follower with little to no independent thought beyond some marginally clever lyrics

not a rap afficiondo myself, but was living in nyc when rap 1st broke outta the 'hood & came downtown ... krs-one/bdp was better-quality music, better message, & easily as good on the delivery as any of the over-rated repetitive recycled wank tupak came up with on his best day

[the following is paraphrasing doot from zappateers] stuff zappa did all with his own personal stamp that is both recognizable and consistently original, and did it all without the assistance of a trust fund or grants or corporate sponsorship or record company pricks who had to bail him out, & without being classically trained

produce over 60 recordings

own all his own masters

compose and conduct for all manner of performing ensembles

write lyrics that cover more than 1 or 2 topics

develop stage productions beyond tv

make full length films

innovate in the field of video production

innovate in the field of studio recording techniques, including sampling

can't agree with any reason that any current [or past] hip-hopster/rapper is equal to zappa on almost any level; you say tupak was the best, maybe so but almost everthing he did was done before, including the sampling, inflamatory lyrics, political lyrics, the whole west coast vs. east coast rap rivalry started in the 80's, man that shit's going on the proverbial 2 tours old ... when zappa flamed someone, it wasn't just another cycle of i fucked your wife/my rhymes are dopest

you say the music is just 1 synth, 1 drum machine and a 70s sample ... where's the talent in that setup¿ pretty narrow measure of musicality and originality, why lean on & butcher a familiar 70s sample rather than coming up with something original ... with the way all those blokes use the same fucking hand gesture[s] over & over; hate to say it but tupie & the all the rest of the those children are poor unfortunate victims of systems beyond their control, they're neatly arranged & marketed into a product that relies on equal parts flash, shock value & hype, rather than let the music stand on it's own; zappa, for the most part, was about the music ... where would those dudes be without mtv

influence on other musicians & the rest of society in general: zappa is huge, & his legacy will be alive far into the future

will there ever be another zappa ¿ possible but not likely; tupie has a very narrow following ... the next wanker will come along soon enough & find a way to rap louder/faster because every beginning rapper sits at home and listens to tupie wanking away at phenomenal speed with perfect rhymes and thoroughly acceptable execution, and when that homie, with his first mic (him and the 1,000,000 other ones), says to himself: sheee-it, we can do that & proceeds to memorize every awe-inspiring word, and then raps it faster, slicker, hipper & smoother [maybe gets his 32nd-notes up to around a dotted whole note = 208]...not only that, he transposes it up a minor third, steals some of his bitch's clothes, gets a dj job in a 2-bit club, gets discovered, gets a record contract (with an advance 10 times bigger), makes an album with a better budget because he's going to be the next big thing, according to the executives at the record company, and they don't mind spending a little extra for real talent ... not only that; tupak figured out he can't rap any faster because he got coked-out on the royalties of his 1st big-selling album [and he still had to record 2 more according to the bail-bond/record contract] ... meanwhile the guy with his pussy clothes on & new tatoos gets his album out on the street, it sells 20,000,000 copies, and somewhere out there, there's 10,000,000 other young guys with their first mics and they're listening to even more re-packaged/recycled wank, and they're saying...

individuality: zappa defined his own category, but was also tops in other categories; tupak may have had the best moves & smoothest rhymes, but he's just a follower with little to no independent thought beyond some marginally clever lyrics

not a rap afficiondo myself, but was living in nyc when rap 1st broke outta the 'hood & came downtown ... krs-one/bdp was better-quality music, better message, & easily as good on the delivery as any of the over-rated repetitive recycled wank tupak came up with on his best day

[the following is paraphrasing doot from zappateers] stuff zappa did all with his own personal stamp that is both recognizable and consistently original, and did it all without the assistance of a trust fund or grants or corporate sponsorship or record company pricks who had to bail him out, & without being classically trained

produce over 60 recordings

own all his own masters

compose and conduct for all manner of performing ensembles

write lyrics that cover more than 1 or 2 topics

develop stage productions beyond tv

make full length films

innovate in the field of video production

innovate in the field of studio recording techniques, including sampling

innovate in the field of mobile recording

run a record label

run a tour

self-taught on multiple instruments

top player on at least one instrument

shit on stage & eat it

good thread btw

Thanks for your input man, much appreciated

Firstly though the amount of musicians that are expertly capable or otherwise, involved in a piece of music has no relevance at all. There's lots of examples of big band music that doesn't cut the mustard at all. So you can't really use quantitive measures such as that whilst trying to analyse something qualitively. Because for every good example there's an equally bad one.

i completely agree that guys like tupac were products of their environment, everyone is a product of their environment and systems beyond their control, that's a fact of life. Therefore it's only natural that rappers sing about the stuff that has influenced them from childhood. Bob Dylan has been celebrated for the best part of 50 years now for opposing war through song. Tupac did exactly the same thing that Dylan did albeit in a completely different style. The words and music are worlds apart, but the message is the same.

Regarding the amount of equipment they use, well it's not really that different from Zappa in later years, when he opted to switch to ther Synclavier. Of course that doesn't take away from the fact that Zappa was an amazingly talented man whose real talents lay beyond the synthesizer. The fact is he knew that it doesn't matter how many people are involved in making the music, what machines or instruments are making the noises, it's the music itself that's important. So whether you are Zappa with a Synclavier, Tupac with a Drum Machine, or seasick steve with a one stringed guitar. The music can still be qualitively appreciated on a level that 1000 musicians all playing in unison couldn't achieve quantitively.

On the contrary, Tupac had one of the most diverse followings of any artist, not just rap. He has a huge following across the world from people of all walks of life. It may be a narrow band in the USA, but America traditionally is quite conservative when it comes to music and historically and systematically racist. So there's many social, religious and political factors that come into play in America, long before any notion of quality gets discussed.

I would suggest that you haven't really listened to Tupac's lyrics, you've no doubt heard them but you've not listened. He's not glorifying anything, he's not saying this lifestyle is great, come get some. It's a cry for help, it may be slick but what's wrong with that and it's also what people expect today. If he could get a message across regardless of whether it was slickly packaged or not, then that's goal achieved. And just because his message does not resonate with you, it doesn't mean that it has no resonance.

I'd say that inspiring 100,000 people or whatever your number was to pick up a mic and start getting involved in art, regardless of the form is a wonderful thing. It's certainly better than picking up a gun or a bag of crack, but maybe that doesn't fit with your perfect image of what makes music good and what doesn't.

Here's an example that shows how little the amount of musicians, or their ability to play has on their musical resonance. Out of all the ex-zappa band members you can probably count on the one hand those that have went on to do anything really substantial. This is in spite of the fact that they are undoubtedly great musicians, were part of a great band and worked daily with a musical genius. The only reason the majority of them are remembered is because they were a part of Zappa's musical resonance. Who on his own could achieve the same resonance with a synthesizer. So the point is basically that the amount of people in your band or how well you can play other people's music, has absolutely nothing to do with quality, or even more importantly how it should be perceived.

Perhaps the music the rap band you mention sang about in the 80s was politically relevant to new york in the 1980s, i don't know. Though you can't really compare it to music from nearly 20 years later and say it's automatically better because the new stuff is derivative.

That's like saying Buddy Holly or jerry lee lewis was better than zappa, just because they were doing rock music before him.

Anyway, he helped define what sells in rock music. Thus, he is heralded.

Frank Zappa does not have any true peers of any ethnicity. Musically, we might compare him to several "black" musicians of the jazz sort...Thelonious Monk, perhaps, maybe some Miles Davis, going back to maybe Duke Ellington, or to add a little humor, Cab Calloway...more recently...gee, I don't know...Herbie Hancock?

But, the sad fact is that there is no one like Frank. The combination of musical complexity, political satirism, and biting wit is one thing...but add to that the unique voice, the hard yet ethereal guitar playing, the tough band leadership, and the independent business accumen, and it becomes hard to think of anyone who even comes close to being what Frank Zappa was and is.

Who else could write a snappy pop tune with filthy lyrics that insult the entire human race and have it pressed to vinyl and sold to anyone and even sometimes played on the radio? That's something that is often overlooked about Frank...he got away with it!

But, of course I have to qustion the validity of such a search as this one. What in Hell's Green Acres does being black have to do with anything? True, we can make distinctions between musical cultures to the point where they can be labeled "black" or "white", but I don't think we can label Frank as particularily white...certainly not as white a Davy Jones, that is...so, if we are talking about musical styles, Frank might well be more black than white anyway, so what are we talking about here? Honkeys and coloreds?

I challenge anyone to find any human being on the planet that can call themselves the new Frank Zappa, or the alternate Frank Zappa, or the (insert ethnic or nationalist identity here) Frank Zappa.

Tu Pac? You're kidding, right?

Frank is the definition of uniqueness, but more than that, he represents great uniqueness. It is folly to suggest that he can be compared with anyone.

I would say that Prince might be the black musician most similar to Zappa:-- multi-instrumentalist/vocalist/lyricist-- great live performer-- prolific composer-- combined different musical genres-- many different backing bands-- tight control over musical output

Biggest difference is that Prince takes himself way too seriously.

FalseDichotomy wrote:

But did 2Pac play any instruments? How involved was he in writing the music for his songs?

There's more to Prince than you may think. Check out "Sign o' the Times" especially for social/political commentary. I wouldn't call his music puerile at all. Michael Jackson is perhaps a better example of a spearhead for today's pop stars, in that he didn't play an instrument and didn't write all of his material. And Prince was able to write about controversial topics while making you dance -- heck, he even had a song and album entitled "Controversy". Check out the lyrics to "1999", "America", "The Cross", etc. -- at his peak (IMO, up to Lovesexy), Prince had something to say.

George Clinton could be something of a black Zappa too, especially with his sense of humor.

Agreed. Excellent points.

Though, I don't think Prince takes himself as seriously as you think...

As much as I love Otis Redding,he was nowhere as diversified as Sam Cooke.Though Sam Cooke started out in gospel,he moved into r&b and was the first black man in LA with his own successfull record label. He wrote,produced,sang,played guitar,piano and made hits for others and himself.Am I getting closer?The man was sensesly shot,through a closed door by an old lady neighbor(same building) who new him. When asked why,she said she was afraid. Did she know it was Sam? She replied "After I shot I heard him say you shot me" It was ruled justifiable homicide. Sort of like,BANG,BANG,BANG...Police..freeze.

Neither is Otis Redding! Can't you see the whole thing is just a minor diversionary mindfuck?!!!!

How about Micheal Jackson? Lesseee...lots of music, loved by his fans, dies young...no no no he knows too much about dancing!

How do you spell Dooh! jpd spells it Do'h.Now you wanna spell it out for me punkin? Well do ya punkin'. I am the diversionary mindblower here and anyone wants my posistion,please take it, how `bout you? You say you write copy for the RS mag. So, now are you the next bullgoose looney know-it-all? Put up,or edit copy. I'm 110 leave me alone,or I'll call Gail.

Gee whiz man, don't take it so harsh! Of course I never wrote for Rolling fucking Stone! But some of the posts on this thread read like they were written by Rolling fucking Stone wannabe journalistas! I hate the Rolling fucking Stone and any sort of ramble-on subjective "expert" opinions and comparasions of so-called Rock stars! Journalism's kind of scary, and if this band is so fucking popular why are we starving?!

It's nothing personal against you, KK. It's the subtle sarcasm in my posts you are not quite getting! I'm having my little fun here busting up a thread I think is pretty silly. Defend it if you must! Nothing personal against you, either, CentScrut! This thread has failed to mention even one musician that can call himself "Zappaesque". He doesn't really have any close peers, and to go looking for one that is "black"...well...what's the fucking point?!

Yes...yes...I am deliberately trying to start a ruckus. Alert the family trust! I'm too much like Frank Zappa!

... the amount of musicians that are expertly capable or otherwise, involved in a piece of music has no relevance at all...

...it's only natural that rappers sing about the stuff that has influenced them from childhood. Bob Dylan has been celebrated for the best part of 50 years now for opposing war through song...

...amount of equipment they use, well it's not really that different from Zappa in later years, when he opted to switch to ther Synclavier. Of course that doesn't take away from the fact that Zappa was an amazingly talented man ....

...On the contrary, Tupac had one of the most diverse followings of any artist, not just rap. He has a huge following across the world from people of all walks of life...

...I would suggest that you haven't really listened to Tupac's lyrics...

...inspiring 100,000 people ... to pick up a mic and start getting involved in art, regardless of the form is a wonderful thing. It's certainly better than picking up a gun or a bag of crack, but maybe that doesn't fit with your perfect image of what makes music good and what doesn't...

...the rap band you mention sang about in the 80s was politically relevant to new york in the 1980s, i don't know. Though you can't really compare it to music from nearly 20 years later and say it's automatically better because the new stuff is derivative...

scrutes, partially agree on these points of yours: number of musicians, amount of equipment,

will conceed these: my unfamiliarity with the pacman's music & lyrics, the most diverse followings of any artist

disagree or don't get your point on these: the subject matter of rap & it's relevance, the dylan example, the claim that a sample/synth guy, even the most talented & diverse sample/synth musician can be compared to a musician that, in addition to being as talented on the synclavier as pacman was on the sample machine, he played all manner of musical instruments & musical styles in a consistently original manner

is the pacman original ... fuck no; the 80s band in my example, & many other old-school rappers were rapping about the same stuff as you hear today: life/crime in the ghetto, poverty, no opportunity, guns, cops, politics, thugs, pimps, pushers ... in fact, all the above were covered in the message, '82 by grandmaster flash & the furious five, not a fuck of a lot of new shit has come out of the rap world since ... that shit's been rubbed into the fucking dirt, goin on 18 tours old

the gratuitous use of profanity is weak, it's like playing the same riff over & over, gets stale real fast ... someone should sample those samplers & do porn wars style spoof ... rap wars

dylan may have been winjing about war for 50 years, but also covered other topics ... zappa covered dozens [hundreds ¿ ] of topics, big difference is he covered it once, maybe came back to it once or twice for an update or some conceptual continuity, then moved on to the next item on the agenda

inspiring 100,000 wannabe rappers may be a wonderful thing, but how is that relevant to the comparison of 2 artists; the fact that 100,000 people have been inspired only proves that rapping is relatively easy to learn, not a lot of talent required to start

say there were 100,000 wannabe frank zappas, how many would be inspired to pick up a guitar, or try & write a song in similar style & appeal ¿

number of musicians/quantity of equipment has no relevance to the quality or appeal of the music, agreed, but again, you're missing my point that; you can compare fz/synclavier with pacman/sampling machine but it's such a tiny slice of what zappa was all about musically, the fact that he could take a musician, who would never be noticed on their own as you point out, and optimize their talent time & time again is another example of why the pakman is just a musical footnote in the overall scheme, high-skilled in a very narrow world with limited musical talent

back to the original topic, there is nobody, black or white, that can be realistically compared to fz; hard to believe you can seriously compare fz & ts at the same level beyond the very few commonalities

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