As for Jetstone; i would say is possibly far enough that it could exist outside of haffaton's sphere but might be very close (Jetstone borders unaroyal, which is east of gowbinknob which is east of Faq)... however i might add that what i'm referring to is the location of Spacerock which is not even Jetstone's original captiol. So the original Captiol of jetstone, and thus the original certain the jetstone side could be even furthar than that. But saying that i must remember that spacerock used to belong to another side before it belong to Jetstone; but like i said, it's far enough away from Faq that it might not be part of haffaton and could currently exist.

True, but that doesn't mean it was far from FAQ. The three sides could form a short triangle, where Jetstone and GK are far apart but FAQ is a median distance between them.

Actually others have been trying to work out the basic geography of erfworldFaq is to the west of GK which in turn was to the west of Unaroyal... And jetstone is believed to border unaroyral... though i'm not sure if its known where jetstone borders with unroyal... I might however suspect that its to the south of unaroyal and could even share a border with GK as i might suspect that jetstone stretches far enough to the west that it would share a border with Transylvito which is to the south of faq(i only suspect this because to two seem to be fairly close allies)... thoguh i would also mention that Jillian did say it took her a long time to reach jetstone (where as it only took stanely 2 turns to get to faq), however that was in part because she was trying to remain hidden along the way.

I would say that it's less that Marie is evil/working against FAQ but it sounds more like she's got a truly Great understanding of prediction and part of that understanding seems to be predicition sucks. Jack is pretty much the closest thing we've got to a wise character and the information he tells us storywise, I feel is likely to be true and trustworthy, at the very least he has the understanding of people to at least present Marie's motivations as true in part or inform us that it's not if she's obviously lying. The stuff here seems to confirm that prediction always works against the people using it. I'm not sure whether it's 'if you look it'll get stuck like that' or that the more you try and base actions around a prediction, the more you end up fighting the prediction itself and predictions are set in stone so it means you lose more. It would be nicely similar to the Luckamancy thing where the luck you have has to be taken from elsewhere. A prediction could be like luck and the more you predict and act on those predictions the more everything else is fated against you. That even leaves it open to the idea that you can defeat a prediction but only if you can withstand an almost infinite amount of things fated to work against you. Which sounds exactly like the sort of thing Parson will eventually do. Gain enough power and gamebreaking ability that he can force a no-win situation on the world and break free of fate

As noted earlier, intellectual cowardice is Jillian's weak spot. She can avoid putting 2 and 2 together for an arbitrarily long time if she feels uncomfortable about 4.

Lamech wrote:

Two possibilities: 1) Jillian's a moron. 2) Wanda knows thinkamancy. Jillian's memories of those talks were replaced with "The down fall of FAQ will be caused by this moron with a plastic hammer."

0beron wrote:

In my opinion, the far more likely of the 2. As a previous poster stated, Jillian has a hardcore weak spot for Intellectual Bravery....she avoids putting 2 and 2 together for as long as possible.

Possibly, but unlikely for a few reasons. One is the fact that Jillian was very far away at the time, making such thinkamancy harder (all the suggestions and such we have seen were done close-range, and sometimes required a lot of time). And also I'm not sure she could bear to do that to Jillian.

I can buy into the idea of Jillian being an idiot/not wanting to know right up until TBfGK, which is when Wanda nails her colours firmly to Stanley's mast. After that, her involvement in Faq's destruction should be screaming in Jillian's face, no matter what she wants to believe. At that point, Wanda's the obvious suspect even without the Prediction. With it? Case closed.

MonteCristo wrote:

3) Jillian is NOT a fatalist

When it comes down to it, A LOT of characters do not like that idea that fate is unavoidable and will actively fight it. In fact the events of this book may even lead Jillian to believe that you can fight it... afterall, Marie just made the prediction that Haffaton would be about Faq's fall; But as we know, Haffaton will fall long before Faq does... So even though Haffaton could be loosely attributed to Faq's fall because that's where Faq picked up a rather poisonous wanda, Jillian may be under the belief that Marie's predictions can be wrong because they survived haffaton itself, and does not know that Wanda was responsible.

Thinking about it, this does make me wonder how much Marie is playing games... Did she REALLY have the vague predictions that "Faq will fall" and "Haffaton will be the agent of Faq's fall"? Or did she actually predict "Wanda will cause faq to fall" and has been leaving out the detail of wanda. If so it would show she is being a manipulative *boop*... it that is the case then it really makes me think that while fighting fate may be difficult it might not truly be as impossible as they think; they however are fatalists and thus are so deep in their belief that fate can not be fought that they will actively work to help fate along rather than search for an answer that might help them avoid it... in this case, if Marie did know that Wanda would bring about Faq's destruction, she could have helped Faq avoid that fate by making sure that Banhammer never allowed wanda into faq or croaked her (so she could not destroy faq from the outside); but instead, Marie lets wanda in to do what she does so that she can move on to her next stop to acquire her destined tool.

Yeah, so... it's pretty clear in this update that Jack and Jill both realise that the Prediction is centered around a certain Wand of Fireballs. Furthermore, Faq's day to day survival hinges on Predictamancy working, a Faq Unit losing faith in Predicitamancy would be like a fish losing faith in water.

As for the idea that Marie's plotting against Faq, there are so many better lies she could have told. For example, if her objective was preventing Jillian's insane plan from being implemented, why not just 'Predict' that Haffaton will survive the next Capital Strike launched against them? If it's about getting Wanda into Faq's service, well why not claim that Faq will never fall while Wanda kneels before Banhammer's Throne? That wouldn't even be a lie.

I can buy into the idea of Jillian being an idiot/not wanting to know right up until TBfGK, which is when Wanda nails her colours firmly to Stanley's mast. After that, her involvement in Faq's destruction should be screaming in Jillian's face, no matter what she wants to believe. At that point, Wanda's the obvious suspect even without the Prediction. With it? Case closed.

No its not... just because Wanda refused to leave Stanely when she had the chance does NOT make a solid link her to faq's fall. Fact of the matter is Jillian has no idea HOW faq fell, she does not know that it required betrayal from within as there are otherways the city could have fell; hell even with the idea that there was betrayal at work, it could have been the work of another, like a certain shockamancer who was shunned by everyone else. In fact, Jillian got her explanation for why Wanda refused to leave stanely when wanda told her about the fate of the tools. Its even possible that during on of her many "Secessions" with wanda, that wanda could have already fed her a cover story about how the city fell.

Quote:

Yeah, so... it's pretty clear in this update that Jack and Jill both realise that the Prediction is centered around a certain Wand of Fireballs. Furthermore, Faq's day to day survival hinges on Predictamancy working, a Faq Unit losing faith in Predicitamancy would be like a fish losing faith in water.

As for the idea that Marie's plotting against Faq, there are so many better lies she could have told. For example, if her objective was preventing Jillian's insane plan from being implemented, why not just 'Predict' that Haffaton will survive the next Capital Strike launched against them? If it's about getting Wanda into Faq's service, well why not claim that Faq will never fall while Wanda kneels before Banhammer's Throne? That wouldn't even be a lie.

No, there is a difference on relying on predictmancy to make your moves and believing that fate is unavoidable. Goodmitten also had a predictamancer, and the king relied on her council to make his moves, but in the end he was no fatalist... he did not believe that fate was written in stone and could not be fought.

In fact if you look at Jillian's conversations you can see that she is not a big believer in fate. Hell, in this latest update we find that even after Marie said with conviction that Faq would fall by haffaton, Jillian STILL tried to fight for an alternate plan; she was essentially arguing against fate. In her conversations with wanda in the previous book, Jillian seems to have little respect for fate; afterall wanda's entire toolist point of view and all of her actions are based on fate; she even says that their fates are intertwined... if Jillian was a fatalist she would take the path of least resistance and simply join Gobwinknob, but no, she would rather do things her way than follow fate. However she does seem to understand how fate effects the way a person thinks; she knows from dealing with her father's court that you can't argue against a fatalist, and thus knows the best way to convince a fatalist to do things your way is to try and find a loop hole in the prediction that fits both your views... hence why jillian would try to keep the tools together by bring wanda and charlie together through faq, as a way to convince wanda to go with her while she still plotted Stanely's demise. Really if Jillian were a fatalist she'd probably even think that croaking stanely was impossible since he is a wielder of one of the tools

And like i suggested early, the events of these prequels may even lead to jillian having reason to think fate can be fought against. Marie predicted that haffaton would cause Faq to fall and yet jillian will come to see Haffaton fall first thus spoiling the prediction; though what jillian didn't know and never realized is that the prediction hadn't come to fruiition because marie's prediction was misleading. Hell, when they believed that haffaton would cause them to fall, they started preparing for a back up plan, but when destruction finally did find them, Faq seems like it was completely unprepared; that would suggest that even faq itself might have thought marie's prediction was wrong because she said haffaton would cause the fall, not wanda.

It's sort of impressive to me that none of you understand why this particular night is the only time he can check out her underwear.

On any other day, they wouldn't be soiled from days of field activity. And if he waited, then they would all be magically cleaned and restored by the start of the next turn.

You could argue, "wouldn't there be only one dirty pair, the pair that she is wearing?" This is true but:

-She probably changed clothes completely before coming to the council, so there is at least one dirty pair in the drawer.-It's the kind of detail that isn't that significant. You could make up an alternate rule, that clothing isn't cleaned unless you're actually in a town that has a 'laundromat' building.

I noticed that as well and found it interesting. I actually see this is a tiny peek at Jack's mind and the degree to which he practices that "constantly review the world to see it as it is and see how others see it" mentality that was mentioned in a text update before. Here, I assume Crypsis is the spell-word for an invisibility and silence veil. Hundreds of turns later, when he creates a veil while saving Stanley, the illusion version of himself says Crypsis to turn invisible and silent again, because he knows that Jillian knows the spell.

_________________"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."

Though Gobwinknob's age can be uncertain... the name Saline IV could imply that he's atleast the fourth king of Gowbinknob which would make the side pretty old(because before him there would have been Saline I, Saline II, and Saline III). But we can't be certain... for instance, Saline IV could actually have been the heir to different royal side that Saline's I-III lived and ruled; however instead of becoming king of that side, the side decided to use Haffaton's fall as a way to claim a capitol site (near Faq) and used Saline IV status of heir to start a new side (gobwinknob)... this in turn would mean that Gobwinknob is actually quite young.

I can't think of any specific real-world examples, but I have a strong feeling that if a royal named Saline IV were to become the ruler of a new kingdom he would then become Saline I of the new kingdom because he is the first king Saline that kingdom had. Remember that these numbers, unlike a Saline Jr., can skip over generations. So Saline IV need not be the son of Saline III. Knowing that Gobwin Nob has had four rulers named Saline does not necessarily indicate that he was the fourth ruler over all, but does, I believe, mean he is the fourth ruler of that name for that kingdom, unrelated to any other possible family ties to other kingdoms.

Though Gobwinknob's age can be uncertain... the name Saline IV could imply that he's atleast the fourth king of Gowbinknob which would make the side pretty old(because before him there would have been Saline I, Saline II, and Saline III). But we can't be certain... for instance, Saline IV could actually have been the heir to different royal side that Saline's I-III lived and ruled; however instead of becoming king of that side, the side decided to use Haffaton's fall as a way to claim a capitol site (near Faq) and used Saline IV status of heir to start a new side (gobwinknob)... this in turn would mean that Gobwinknob is actually quite young.

I can't think of any specific real-world examples, but I have a strong feeling that if a royal named Saline IV were to become the ruler of a new kingdom he would then become Saline I of the new kingdom because he is the first king Saline that kingdom had. Remember that these numbers, unlike a Saline Jr., can skip over generations. So Saline IV need not be the son of Saline III. Knowing that Gobwin Nob has had four rulers named Saline does not necessarily indicate that he was the fourth ruler over all, but does, I believe, mean he is the fourth ruler of that name for that kingdom, unrelated to any other possible family ties to other kingdoms.

In the real world, the number was incremented only when the person in question became king. I think this was mainly because time was still often measured by years after the current monarch took office, but I guess it doesn't matter. In Erfworld though, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was "Saline IV" because he was the third replacement for the royal heir named "Saline"...

The loophole in the obedience rules that allow Marie to act against the interests of her own Side is the belief that Fate is the true Ruler of all realms. This would permit any Predictamancer to flat out lie to her own real Ruler.

The loophole in the obedience rules that allow Marie to act against the interests of her own Side is the belief that Fate is the true Ruler of all realms. This would permit any Predictamancer to flat out lie to her own real Ruler.

Interesting possibility, but if you follow it through to it's conclusion it doesn't make as much sense. 1) This would apply to ALL units, so any unit could lie and disobey all orders that would involve trying to fight Fate. And 2) this would mean all Rulers obey Fate, thus nullifying the whole point of having Rulers and separate Sides if they were all ruled by 1 entity anyway, and finally 3) Rulers fight Fate, so they clearly are't obeying it.

_________________"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."

The loophole in the obedience rules that allow Marie to act against the interests of her own Side is the belief that Fate is the true Ruler of all realms. This would permit any Predictamancer to flat out lie to her own real Ruler.

Interesting possibility, but if you follow it through to it's conclusion it doesn't make as much sense. 1) This would apply to ALL units, so any unit could lie and disobey all orders that would involve trying to fight Fate. And 2) this would mean all Rulers obey Fate, thus nullifying the whole point of having Rulers and separate Sides if they were all ruled by 1 entity anyway, and finally 3) Rulers fight Fate, so they clearly are't obeying it.

Those objections can fall to some interpretations:1 ) only casters who have done predictamancy can have this degree of certainty. Wanda may have gone out-of-school to do predictamancy herself.

2 + 3 ) Fate rules all, and it does so whether any individual so ruled acknowledges it or follows willingly. A ruler who fights is fighting their ruler, and will lose.

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