I'm with BigRod on this. Trained adults okay ... others ... bad. As a trained adult you are in the understanding that injury can occur and you accept that. A trained adult will tap out if they feel they are in danger thus avoiding any serious injury ... again ... trained to do so.

For myself, beside a neck crank doing these moves I've never been hurt ... but full grappling from stand up I have and am currently. I went to the ground with another opponent and we went hard. My neck and shoulder hit and now I have to crushed vertabrea in my neck which has caused a nerve to be pinched that makes my right arm/hand vibrate all of the time like a tends machine. Many times my right hand will go numb. Also my right chest is affected. This makes my weight lifting and martial arts training very limited. I'm scheduled for an MRI on Sept. 27, 2005 and then to see a neurologist ... and that can be 5 to 19 months ... not including surgery which I've been told it most likely.

I accepted the fact that I could get injuried ... this was an unfortunate part of my training and I blame nobody. I could have got this injury just wrestling around with friends ... but without training it may have been worse. Trained adults accept the fact that injuries can occur and we move on and continue training. Heck during sparring I could break your leg by accident ... or mine ... but it won't stop me.

Again ... trained adults ... good ... untrained persons and children ... bad.

I was thrown on my head and shoulder once as well, it was nothing nice. Luckily it wasn't serious. My whole arm tingled for about 1 minute, and my finger tips tingled for at least a month after that. I just had a few bruised nerves.

There's a reason why these are not allowed in shiai. Now that I'm doing BJJ I'm still a bit wary of them. I botched a hadaka jime in a tournament once and wound up getting a penalty (chui, I think) and lots of really bad looks from the crowd. I would have much rather sunk the choke and got the Ippon, but I just got too exited and screwed up. The guy was a friend of mine as well which just made it worse. Fortunately he didn't get hurt but it just made me think about how dangerous those are when going full speed.

Quote:I was thrown on my head and shoulder once as well, it was nothing nice. Luckily it wasn't serious. My whole arm tingled for about 1 minute, and my finger tips tingled for at least a month after that. I just had a few bruised nerves.

That's what I get for training takedowns on a carpeted floor I guess.

Exact thing happened to me BigRod with the immediate tingling and numbness. Then I things got better ... or so I thought ... and then things took a nose dive for the worse. I think continued grappling just made it worse. Was feeling good and then woke up one morning at 2:00 and was in severe pain. Thought first was my rotator cuff as had problems years before with it. Didn't realize that the pain in my shoulder/arm/hand was actually a pinched nerve. GP couldn't figure this out but a sports doctor did.

Yep, I saw the opening and rushed in way to fast and hard. He was a buddy of mine so I felt like crap (although I would have felt just as bad if he wasn't). Nobody got hurt, but I can see how it could happen.

Quote:This is an interesting page. The techniques shown are basically the can opener (from the mount), the guillotene from standing and the gaurd, a gaurd pass, and a variation of kesa-gatame (scarf hold).

The author describes these techniques as "very DANGEROUS and should be taught only from the grade of Brown Belt."

Okay....whatever.

These things are all taught from day one in BJJ and sub wrestling. I've been doing them forever and have yet to see any serious or even minor injuries from these moves.

Evidently your club is not centered around traditional principles and the general principle of martial arts then. The whole aim is to create an enviroment where learners can learn the arts and at the same time be in a safe enviroment. Teaching these techniaques from "day 1" is stupid and irrational.

In other words don't run until you can walk. This is for obvious safety reasons. You need to learn the basic principles in order to build up and be able to execute the more advanced techniques sufficiently.

Chanters, I agree with you regarding safety and building a solid foundation of technique.

BUT, different schools/styles operate differently, sometimes completely opposite of each other. They each have their own idea of what "advanced" techniques are and when to teach them.

For example, In BJJ you typically only learn leg locks at Blue Belt and above, for whatever reason. In Sub Wrestling, within a few weeks or a month you'll be learning leg locks. Same thing with the Guillotene in Judo. It wasn't taught to me at all in my Judo school during the entire 3 months I was there. In BJJ I was taught and using it within a month of starting.

Another example. The karate school I used to attend, my instructor said you can't learn anything about swords until you get to Black Belt. But yet I could've gone and joined a local Kendo club and started learning everything I wanted to know about swords from day one.

My point of all this is these "limitations" are somewhat artificial, created by individual instructors or some tradition being carried on for whatever reason.

Once I started attending a variety of different schools, I noticed these sorts of things. What one instructor said I wasn't ready for, another instructor had no problem teaching me. What you can learn and when is completely subjective.