Taking actual delivery of commodities is a mistake. The only real way to make significant money is through futures trading. Be warned though, most don't make money.

if you cant hold it, you dont own it.....ETF's are a ponzi scheme. I have done options/futures but on metals prefer physical. I bought palladium in 2008 for 220 and took a truck load, sold half at 500.

Taking actual delivery of commodities is a mistake. The only real way to make significant money is through futures trading. Be warned though, most don't make money.

It depends on the entity, and the actual commodity involved. If you're Weston bakeries for example, you're going to want to take actual delivery on all that wheat. If you're Tysons, you're going to want to take delivery of those 4 tons of pork bellies, and if you're an individual looking for wealth insurance, you're going to want delivery or at least fulfillment of your physical gold.

The only way "people" make money on future's trading is to be part of the mechanism that fixes the prices.

Well exactly. You don't want to hold or own this junk. Just control a futures contract over a time period and exploit a price differential. (If you guessed right.)

Do you look for "formations" in technical charts? Or do you just do fundamentals?

Having control over a futures contract isn't all it's cracked up to be. When pricing mechanisms are "fixed" by entities whose positions conflict again your own, having control of the contract leaves you completely NOT in control, and subject to hefty margins that can cause you to lose your money and position.

Why do you think Barclays just got hit with a £26 million fine ($44 million USD) ?

You can rest assured as more & more futures contracts reach maturation, we're going to see another huge smash in the gold price soon, as central banks look to cover their short positions. When this happens, positions are stopped out. When it comes to precious metals as money or financial insurance, you're better off taking actual physical than a piece of paper. IOU's from the DTCC aren't worth the paper they're not even written on.

Of course I did, I used them a lot, shame what happened.....I never had an issue.

You say that like it was a one-off fluke, but we've seen his act before. He did the exact same thing in the early 90's. If you never had an issue with him, you probably hadn't bought very much or in the past year if at all.

I just googled it this morning.......now I'm going to go with gainesville coin from Florida, my backup

This morning? You're late to the party my friend, 'cause this happened some time ago, and with all the preceding red flags. Gainesville coin? Good Luck with that. {sigh} Will people never learn from the past?

I don't personally directly buy or take possession of physical metals because I like to stay liquid and have buyers and sellers available globally who will sell or buy in a click when I want to buy or sell. And I don't want the headaches that come from physically owning some of these things.

The one exception is a small amount of land I own that is leased to an oil and gas company. But I don't actually have any investment there - they pay me a lease fee and 20% of what they pull out of the ground. I don't invest a penny, have no risk associated with the drilling, and share none of the headaches associated with finding it, pulling it out, transporting and storing it, or trying to sell it or whatever.

I use ETF instruments that buy the commodities themselves, and I buy and sell to control my own exposure to the commodities. Those I invest in are also invested in by the likes of Goldman, Wells Fargo, John Paulson, Soros, et al - basically linked directly to the commodities, highly liquid, and not likely to tank.

I don't get into the ETFs that borrow heavily and do all sorts of speculative jazz. That IS something to be concerned about IMO.

I don't invest too heavily in any one, and I certainly don't gamble on futures contracts - I have no desire to try to predict where gold or oil will be next week or 6 months from now. I mainly buy for the long term, and may sell off if I feel a particular space is overheated or if I need to put some $ elsewhere.

I purchased north of 500K with Hans.....I haven't bought since 2011, but had a very good experience.

Just like I said, "you hadn't purchased much from him in the last year if at all."You're fortunate, a lot of folks lost big. Same happened when Gold House went under. I think it was Mr1derful who first alerted me to that one. I should have known something was up when the emails started coming in hot & heavy sometimes as much as 4 & 5x's a week, ...then poof... nothing.

That helps a lot in terms of personal comfort levels. It took me close to 2 years of careful observation of Harald and how he handled situations that arose, before I felt complete trust. These days, you can't be too careful.

Please allow me to clarify this again. As an affiliate, I acquire gold, I don't sell it. Karatbars sells gold, not me.Karatbars offers an affiliate referral program, just like any other e-commerce retailer, very similar to Amazon.When an Amazon affiliate refers or recommends a book, Amazon rewards the affiliate with a referral reward.Amazon does not require the affiliate to purchase the book and then resell it to the end user, Amazon sells the book.

Amazon is not an MLM, or network marketing company, they are an e-commerce retailer.Karatbars international is not an MLM, or network marketing company, they too are an e-commerce retailer.

People purchase from Amazon because they want to buy books, and they join the Amazon affiliate program in order to earn affiliate rewards when they refer books. People purchase from Karatbars because they want to acquire smaller, transaction-friendly weights of the highest asset class of private issue (not subject to arbitrary government recall or sanctions) 999.9 pure gold bullion. People join the Karatbars affiliate program in order to earn affiliate rewards when those they refer purchase gold. Karatbars International has an extremely generous referral program that rewards affiliate in both cash (€) & gold (Au).

What we as Karatbars affiliates have done is to crunch the numbers behind the referral rewards program, and based on those numbers, have worked out a business plan to produce certain results. It is a proven plan of action, that if followed will produce certain results, but is not mandatory to being a Karatbars affiliate or customer. It is simply an optional strategy employed by those of us who want to magnify our gold acquisitions, and achieve 5 figure passive income cash flows weekly, as well as free gold. I'd rather get paid 20,000-30,000 € in passive weekly income, along with another 6 or 7 ounces of gold per week for... saving $65 a week in gold? That's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

There are two types of people in this world:

1) Those who PAY to use or acquire the goods & services they like.

2) Those who GET PAID to use or acquire the goods & services they like.

First, the argument would be impressive if any businesses accepted Karatbars. A while ago you said that mass-market adoption was just around the corner and that hundreds - if not thousands - of merchants would start accepting them anytime now...

Second, if you really care about transaction friendly weights, you may as well stock on iPhones. The 4S contains 0.001 ounces of gold - a much more practical amount. And it's way better than a plastic card because it's functional: you can use it as a phone!

Karatbars international is not an MLM, or network marketing company, they too are an e-commerce retailer.

This bit is from http://www.lautorite.qc.ca/en/press-releases-2014-conso.html_2014_alert-karatbars.html: "With the company's "Affiliates" program, investors can make Internet-based purchases through Karatbars plans and they are encouraged to recruit two other Affiliates. These Affiliates are in turn encouraged to recruit two other Affiliates each, and so on. Affiliates are lured by the possibility of earning large payouts, in particular through a percentage of amounts collected from the Karatbars plans and gold products purchased by referrals."

Now, I don't know about you, but this sounds like an MLM to me... is that not how it works? If it is, how is this not an MLM? It's the textbook definition of an MLM.

Bottom line: if it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck then chances are that it's a duck and not a rabbit.

People purchase from Karatbars because they want to acquire smaller, transaction-friendly weights of the highest asset class of private issue (not subject to arbitrary government recall or sanctions) 999.9 pure gold bullion.

What the hell does "not subject to arbitrary government recall or sanctions" even mean? If the government were to pass a new Gold Act, all gold could be recalled.

It is simply an optional strategy employed by those of us who want to magnify our gold acquisitions, and achieve 5 figure passive income cash flows weekly, as well as free gold.

LOL at the 5 figure weekly passive income cash flows. And as for the free gold bit, I'll say it again: if you are getting gold for free, the person giving you the gold attaches no value to it. Since that's unlikely, the likely explanation is that you're actually paying for it, but don't know it.

I'd rather get paid 20,000-30,000 € in passive weekly income, along with another 6 or 7 ounces of gold per week for... saving $65 a week in gold? That's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, you'd rather get paid 20,000€ in passive weekly income, along with another 6 or 7 ounces of gold per week (another 5,000 € at current rates). The question is: are you? The answer is no. You aren't getting paid 20,000€ and 6 ounces of gold per week. You aren't paid that per year. Or per decade.

You're right about something: the no-brainer bit. It describes you perfectly.

2) Those who GET PAID to use or acquire the goods & services they like.

You forgot the "BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE. CALL IN THE NEXT FIFTEEN MINUTES AND WE'LL GIVE YOU A 30-DAY SUPPLY OF COLON-FLOW FREE JUST FOR TRYING KARATBARS! CANCEL ANYTIME, BUT KEEP THE COLON-FLOW AS OUR GIFT TO YOU!"

Karatbars sells gold bars embedded in unique collectable cards, as well as other gold products and gift items. From fragrances, champagne, clothing, time pieces etc., The company is an e-commerce company with the ability to include numerous products across their spectrum of product offerings.

First, the argument would be impressive if any businesses accepted Karatbars. A while ago you said that mass-market adoption was just around the corner and that hundreds - if not thousands - of merchants would start accepting them anytime now...

There are various K-Exchange outlets throughout the world, and many more coming on board every day. At this stage in development, the full database of K-Exchanges has not been released. People are in the accumulation phase. Why spend a preserving asset when you can spend a depreciating one? I have no control over the release of the database of K-Exchange locations. I also have no ability to predict how soon the paper currencies of the world will experience such a depreciation that no one will want to transact in them.

Second, if you really care about transaction friendly weights, you may as well stock on iPhones. The 4S contains 0.001 ounces of gold - a much more practical amount. And it's way better than a plastic card because it's functional: you can use it as a phone!

Karatbars does have a stock of gold iPhones. They don't sell them tho, ...they give them away to affiliates.

0.001 ounces of gold is indeed a transaction friendly weight, and an amount our system will be able to accomodate. Through our accounts we will have the ability to trade in mere fractions of a gram. Not in something fiat, no credit, but in something tangible... real money, gold.

This bit is from http://www.lautorite.qc.ca/en/press-releases-2014-conso.html_2014_alert-karatbars.html: "With the company's "Affiliates" program, investors can make Internet-based purchases through Karatbars plans and they are encouraged to recruit two other Affiliates. These Affiliates are in turn encouraged to recruit two other Affiliates each, and so on. Affiliates are lured by the possibility of earning large payouts, in particular through a percentage of amounts collected from the Karatbars plans and gold products purchased by referrals."

I'm not a spokesperson for the company, and as such it would be inappropriate for me to comment, other than to say I am extremely confident that any confusion this may cause for some will be resolved satisfactorily.

Now, I don't know about you, but this sounds like an MLM to me... is that not how it works? If it is, how is this not an MLM? It's the textbook definition of an MLM.

Bottom line: if it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck then chances are that it's a duck and not a rabbit.

As I've stated before, Karatbars is an e-Commerce company that sells 999.9 pure gold bullion products produced by LBMA accredited Good Delivery List refineries. They offer free gold accumulation accounts that allow people to buy gold in smaller, more affordable weights of 1 gram, 2.5 gram and 5 gram weights, and have the gold delivered to them by insured courier, or stored for free..

They also provide a generous affiliate referral program that rewards affiliates for their referals to the company.

What the hell does "not subject to arbitrary government recall or sanctions" even mean? If the government were to pass a new Gold Act, all gold could be recalled.

All government issued currency can be recalled, and removed from circulation by the governments that issued them. If you take your bank card out of your wallet, you will see that it is considered the property of the bank that issued it. You are allowed to use it as a convenience. If at anytime the bank that issued it wants to "recall it" they can. You are the bearer of the card and permitted to use it as a convenience. Bank of America does not however have the authority to recall a Bank of Canada ATM card. They didn't issue it, and therefore cannot recall it.

Perhaps because what Karatbars is doing doesn't make sense? But then again, no MLM does.

If it doesn't make sense to you, that's ok. You are not required to be a member, customer, or affiliate. It makes sense to me and many others. If you would like it explained so it does make sense, feel free to do so through www.ViewTheInfo.com Again. Karatbars is not a MLM.

Ooh. A business plan. With numbers. Tell me, how much gold do I and the people under me have to sell, under your business plan, to get $1,000 a month?

Karatbars affiliates do not sell gold. The company offers 7 streams of income that members can choose to participate in and earn from. You may view the 7 income streams via our website by visiting www.ViewTheInfo.com

Being an affiliate, setting up a system, and utilizing a strategy has provided me with zero-risk financial exposure, positive residual cash flow, and the ability to acquire gold that I don't have to dip into my personal finances to acquire... more gold than I would otherwise be able to acquire dipping into my pockets every week from money from a JOB. (if I had one). Many of our affiliates have chosen to utilize the same strategy I and many other use, because they have come to the conclusion that the last 10 years at their "jobs" didn't get them where they wanted to be financially, and the next 10 years at their jobs would not get them where they wanted to be, or allow them to acquire the same amount of gold on a weekly basis that utilizing this system could. No one is obligated to utilize any strategy or even refer anyone. The system is there, the account is free, and people are able to use their accounts simply to earn referral bonuses without ever acquiring any gold themselves, and likewise, people are free to remain customers and simply acquire gold without ever making a single referral if they choose. Just like you, me, or anyone else can choose to make a purchase from Amazon.com without joining their affiliate program, or recommending a book, or any other product available through Amazon.

LOL at the 5 figure weekly passive income cash flows. And as for the free gold bit, I'll say it again: if you are getting gold for free, the person giving you the gold attaches no value to it. Since that's unlikely, the likely explanation is that you're actually paying for it, but don't know it.

Whether you understand what we are doing or how we are doing it makes no difference. We still get paid.

Sure, you'd rather get paid 20,000€ in passive weekly income, along with another 6 or 7 ounces of gold per week (another 5,000 € at current rates). The question is: are you? The answer is no. You aren't getting paid 20,000€ and 6 ounces of gold per week. You aren't paid that per year. Or per decade.

You're right about something: the no-brainer bit. It describes you perfectly.

Whether you understand what we are doing, or how we are doing it makes no difference. We still get paid.

You forgot the "BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE. CALL IN THE NEXT FIFTEEN MINUTES AND WE'LL GIVE YOU A 30-DAY SUPPLY OF COLON-FLOW FREE JUST FOR TRYING KARATBARS! CANCEL ANYTIME, BUT KEEP THE COLON-FLOW AS OUR GIFT TO YOU!"

No but for a limited time, (summer special) affiliates who choose to participate in our optional DS program can, for an additional 45 € receive 90 € worth of coupon codes (6 codes x 15 € each) towards various collector cards. Many are choosing to use these codes to acquire the newly issued voice of Africa collector cards. Proceeds from the purchase of those card go towards supporting a school & orphanage in Africa.

I'll bet there's more than 300 grams of plastic in that picture. And you're still a few cards short of a troy ounce of gold, aren't ya?

That's not at all accurate. There are 31.1 grams in a troy ounce of gold.Each one of those black & gold cards you see has a 1 gram gold bar embedded in the centre.Each one of those silver/grey cards you see has a 5 gram gold bar embedded in the centre.

Anytime I have 4,000 € in weekly referral rewards, my system automatically acquires 4 of the black & gold cards for me. You do the math, and tell me whether you still think there isn't an oz or more of gold there.

Karatbars sells gold bars embedded in unique collectable cards, as well as other gold products and gift items. From fragrances, champagne, clothing, time pieces etc., The company is an e-commerce company with the ability to include numerous products across their spectrum of product offerings.

They're an e-commerce company now? I see... this inspires confidence, for sure. This is the reason why when I go to buy a car from a car dealer, I also buy flour from him as well.

There are various K-Exchange outlets throughout the world, and many more coming on board every day. At this stage in development, the full database of K-Exchanges has not been released. People are in the accumulation phase. Why spend a preserving asset when you can spend a depreciating one? I have no control over the release of the database of K-Exchange locations. I also have no ability to predict how soon the paper currencies of the world will experience such a depreciation that no one will want to transact in them.

LOL... in other words: "there too are merchants. I can't tell you where they are, but they totally are." You sound like a child.

0.001 ounces of gold is indeed a transaction friendly weight, and an amount our system will be able to accomodate. Through our accounts we will have the ability to trade in mere fractions of a gram. Not in something fiat, no credit, but in something tangible... real money, gold.

As I've stated before, Karatbars is an e-Commerce company that sells 999.9 pure gold bullion products produced by LBMA accredited Good Delivery List refineries. They offer free gold accumulation accounts that allow people to buy gold in smaller, more affordable weights of 1 gram, 2.5 gram and 5 gram weights, and have the gold delivered to them by insured courier, or stored for free..

As I've demonstrated - using numbers and math - what they do is sell tiny amounts of gold, at a ridiculous markup in a package that is neither convenient nor standard.

All government issued currency can be recalled, and removed from circulation by the governments that issued them.

Certainly, the government can remove currency that comes to its possession from circulation and it can make a currency that is legal tender no longer legal tender. But it cannot make the currency you have stashed in your mattress disappear, and it cannot just 'recall' it. But this is hardly something new or shocking. And it's not limited to currency that it issues: a government can also make private ownership of gold illegal, as the U.S. did before.

If you take your bank card out of your wallet, you will see that it is considered the property of the bank that issued it. You are allowed to use it as a convenience. If at anytime the bank that issued it wants to "recall it" they can. You are the bearer of the card and permitted to use it as a convenience. Bank of America does not however have the authority to recall a Bank of Canada ATM card. They didn't issue it, and therefore cannot recall it.

First things first: a bank card is not a currency anymore than a menu is food you idiot. If a bank "recalls" your card, they don't get to keep the assets that you have in your account.

If it doesn't make sense to you, that's ok. You are not required to be a member, customer, or affiliate. It makes sense to me and many others. If you would like it explained so it does make sense, feel free to do so through www.---.com Again. Karatbars is not a MLM.

Karatbars affiliates do not sell gold. The company offers 7 streams of income that members can choose to participate in and earn from. You may view the 7 income streams via our website by visiting www.---.com

Karatbars doesn't sell gold either. They sell plastic cards. And I'm not interested in viewing yet another website dreamed up by you and your cohorts.

Being an affiliate, setting up a system, and utilizing a strategy has provided me with zero-risk financial exposure, positive residual cash flow, and the ability to acquire gold that I don't have to dip into my personal finances to acquire...

Sure it has - in the same way that your gas pills afforded you the ability to drive your car without having to fill up with gas.

Many of our affiliates have chosen to utilize the same strategy I and many other use, because they have come to the conclusion that the last 10 years at their "jobs" didn't get them where they wanted to be financially, and the next 10 years at their jobs would not get them where they wanted to be, or allow them to acquire the same amount of gold on a weekly basis that utilizing this system could.

But peddling "gold" to others will get them where they want to be financially? Yeah, right...

No one is obligated to utilize any strategy or even refer anyone. The system is there, the account is free, and people are able to use their accounts simply to earn referral bonuses without ever acquiring any gold themselves, and likewise, people are free to remain customers and simply acquire gold without ever making a single referral if they choose. Just like you, me, or anyone else can choose to make a purchase from Amazon.com without joining their affiliate program, or recommending a book, or any other product available through Amazon.

You've tried this "we're like Amazon" bit before. The truth is you aren't like Amazon, and you ought to cut it out.

No but for a limited time, (summer special) affiliates who choose to participate in our optional DS program can, for an additional 45 € receive 90 € worth of coupon codes (6 codes x 15 € each) towards various collector cards. Many are choosing to use these codes to acquire the newly issued voice of Africa collector cards. Proceeds from the purchase of those card go towards supporting a school & orphanage in Africa.

BUT WAIT. THERE'S MORE. IF YOU ORDER IN NEXT FIFTEEN MINUTES, WE'LL DOUBLE YOUR OFFER...

You are a fucking joke and you do a far more compelling job at caricaturing yourself than an established caricature artist ever could.

That's not at all accurate. There are 31.1 grams in a troy ounce of gold.Each one of those black & gold cards you see has a 1 gram gold bar embedded in the centre.Each one of those silver/grey cards you see has a 5 gram gold bar embedded in the centre.

How much more plastic, by volume, do you have in your "stockpile" there? I'm just curious.

Anytime I have 4,000 € in weekly referral rewards, my system automatically acquires 4 of the black & gold cards for me. You do the math, and tell me whether you still think there isn't an oz or more of gold there.

Come on, is this even worthy of a rebuttal? Lady, you've never had 4,000€ in weekly referral anything. You've never had 4,000€ period. Go back to shilling miracle gas pills and whatever else it is that you do to swindle people.

Seriously? You're offering clarifications? Haven't we already established that you don't know your head from your ass? Remember, you are the person who didn't know fundamental economics concepts and can't explain basic facts about the bullion market.

Actually we're finding that a lot of people would prefer to transact that way. Many States like Utah, Arizona etc are in fact passing laws making gold legal tender.People more and more are choosing to extricate themselves from debt, and debt based systems.

Certainly, the government can remove currency that comes to its possession from circulation and it can make a currency that is legal tender no longer legal tender. But it cannot make the currency you have stashed in your mattress disappear, and it cannot just 'recall' it. But this is hardly something new or shocking. And it's not limited to currency that it issues: a government can also make private ownership of gold illegal, as the U.S. did before.

Precedent certainly has been set for that in the USA, but truthfully, it matters not to me whether the USA, (one country out of 120+ and counting,) chooses to outlaw private ownership of gold, anymore than I care that Saudi Arabia makes consumption of alcohol illegal. Or for that matter that gambling was illegal for so long in my own province. If I wanted to play BlackJack, while sipping a Long Island Ice Tea, I could always simply do so in Vegas. China once passed a law stating married couples could only have one child per household. It didn't make a hill of beans to those Chinese couples living in Canada, the USA or anywhere else outside of China, or even for those Chinese couples who already had multiple children living outside of the country. They were not required to undergo retro-active abortions. Governments can pass whatever laws they choose to. They could in fact pass a law one day making private single family home ownership illegal. I prefer however not to engage in wild speculation with regards to what laws governments may or may not choose to pass in the future, and I see no reason why I should forego owning my own home as a precaution. I simply keep my eyes open, look at what I see going on all around me, and try to apply a little common sense in my decision making.

First things first: a bank card is not a currency anymore than a menu is food you idiot.

I'm well aware that a bank card is not a currency. I used that as an example of something issued & used for the purposes of facilitating financial transactions. While both facilitate financial transactions, they remain the property of the issuer. That was the point I was attempting to make. There's no need to get ad hom.

If a bank "recalls" your card, they don't get to keep the assets that you have in your account.

LOL! You say that like you've never heard of Cyprus, or the bank bail-in provision already codified into law in all the G7's. BTW: Those numbers in your bank accounts, are not your assets, they are digital debt-based IOU's. What do you think will happen to the value of all your currency if your bank can't afford to pay it's debt obligation to you? Would you rather have your savings backed by FDIC / CDIC insurance or gold? As for me personally, I'd rather have my savings IN GOLD.

Sure it has - in the same way that your gas pills afforded you the ability to drive your car without having to fill up with gas.

When did I ever state gas pills would allow someone to drive a car without filling up with gas?

Do you honestly believe that one of Europe's largest independent Consumer Watchdog organizations would recommend them if they weren't genuine? ...or that the Vatican would buy 100 kilos of Karatbars gold... or that Buckingham Palace would commission and privately brand 6 kilos of limited edition commemorative collectable gold cards for Queen Elizabeth II's diamond jubilee without first determining if the gold was real, or if the company was a reliable partner to do business with? Do you?

I've stated what Karatbars is, and what it isn't.

You can choose to indulge in whatever wishful thinking you choose to about whether the gold is real or not. There have been many who have actually purchased Karatbars gold, removed the gold bars and had them tested, only to discover, they are exactly what Karatbars and their certificates of warranty claim them to be.

You don't have to take my word for it though. We could simply put the matter to rest by your purchasing some Karatbars gold cards, and having them tested. "You once told me to put my money where my pie hole was". Until you take your own advice, ...I really don't see that we have anything further to discuss.

I wish I could say I'm surprised that you don't have a job, but I'm not. You don't strike me as a productive member of society. You strike me as a leech.

But peddling "gold" to others will get them where they want to be financially? Yeah, right...

You've tried this "we're like Amazon" bit before. The truth is you aren't like Amazon, and you ought to cut it out.

Whether I understand what you're doing doesn't make a difference. Whether you understand does. Let me remind you, you are the buffoon who thought that Karatbars were 999.9% gold...

Again, the facts are there for everyone to see. The conclusion is inescapable.

BUT WAIT. THERE'S MORE. IF YOU ORDER IN NEXT FIFTEEN MINUTES, WE'LL DOUBLE YOUR OFFER...

You are a fucking joke and you do a far more compelling job at caricaturing yourself than an established caricature artist ever could.

How much more plastic, by volume, do you have in your "stockpile" there? I'm just curious.

Come on, is this even worthy of a rebuttal? Lady, you've never had 4,000€ in weekly referral anything. You've never had 4,000€ period. Go back to shilling miracle gas pills and whatever else it is that you do to swindle people.

Seriously? You're offering clarifications? Haven't we already established that you don't know your head from your ass? Remember, you are the person who didn't know fundamental economics concepts and can't explain basic facts about the bullion market.