Well, this movie is finally out and it will create some uproar. It is unfair, unbalanced and of course from the eyes of a person who lives under a death threat. Yet he is not wrong in his claims and what danger goes out from the muslim world. To neglect it would perhaps be naive and would only undermine our western social integrity further. How muslims or the muslim world will respond to this movie, will be an interesting thing to see.

I watched it last night. It seemed as if the creator's sole intent was to cause an uproar, rather than initiate dialogue. There was very little speech (was there any dialogue at all?), and the imagery very much concentrated on showing dead bodies. I am doubtful as to whether any moderate Muslim can watch it without being pissed off, and the hardcore ones -- well, they already hate "us" Western people as if we're one hivemind.

For all intents and purposes, I prefer the documentary "What the West needs to know about Islam" -- it's still on video.google.com, I believe. There's less hysterical nonsense and more talk.

For all intents and purposes, I prefer the documentary "What the West needs to know about Islam" -- it's still on video.google.com, I believe. There's less hysterical nonsense and more talk.

LINK, please?

I don't see how repeating things that have been done or said next to the Quranic verses that are used to justify them is anything other than a statement of fact. Do all Muslims believe these things? Do all Christians believe that Homosexuals should be executed?

This is as much a call for moderate Muslims to clean house as a "deliberate provocation." Is it provoocative? Obviously. But if moderate Muslims weren't so deafeningly silent on the subject of radical Islam, and would speak up and say something, Geert Wilders, bless his kafir heart, wouldn't have to say it FOR THEM.

Long live freedom of speech. Persons wishing to live under Islamic law should simply relocate to where it is practiced if it is so important to them. Wow. Now that's a radical, insulting concept.

Wake up, people. Salafism/Wahabism is TELLING YOU what it wants to do to you. Is it all Muslims? Of course not. But even if it's two percent, that's two hundred million people who want to see everyone who posts here dead.

On a lighter note, I had no idea that some Muslims believe in talking anti-Semitic rocks... who says they're crazy?

The inevitable response to the film (by people who of course will not have seen it) will no doubt produce tons of great footage for Fitna 2: The Fitna-ning.

On Fitna - I thought it was extremely provocative and generalizing. I don't know how the muslim situation in the Netherlands is but I HIGHLY doubt that there are that many fanatic muslims secretly plotting the conquering of the country and all world. The movie presented all muslims as fanatic fundamentalists, which is completely false.

I wonder how many of you actually know stuff about the Islam you havent been fed to by the media.

I know stuff about Islam I was fed by majoring in Religion at one of the top Liberal Arts schools in the country, and taking almost of my courses in Islam. I'm married to a member of the most progressive minority sect of the religion. She feeds me, too.

I may not know that much about Islam (according to your generalizations) but I believe death threats and sites having to take down videos sends a pretty clear message. Ultimately, I am not going to feel sorry over a religion being attacked. Especially one that is causing so much shit in the world.

I'm not exactly a supporter of his, nor would I like to be in his shoes.
But am I glad theres something in the way of these immigrants taking over.

I'm from the Netherlands and I can confirm mosques, woman in Burqa's (or whatever you'd like to call those contraptions) popping up everywhere.

ONE THING THOUGH:
I am NOT intolerant to this religion in general, nor do I claim knowing anything about it.
I AM intolerent to these people enforcing their rules upon us.
If they don't like our rules, get the fuck out, it's our country.

ONE THING THOUGH:I am NOT intolerant to this religion in general, nor do I claim knowing anything about it.I AM intolerent to these people enforcing their rules upon us.If they don't like our rules, get the fuck out, it's our country.

Agreed. I understand that we leave our countries for several reasons, but coming to other countries and telling others what to do isn't gonna work out.

I don't think I'm gonna waste my time seeing this short film. It doesn't sound like it presents the right message whatsoever.

_________________

gomorro wrote:

Yesterday was the birthday of school pal and I met the chick of my sigh (I've talked about here before, the she-wolf I use to be inlove with)... Maaan she was using a mini-skirt too damn insane... Dude you could saw her entire soul every time she sit...

The video was good for a laff. As much as I dislike Islam, I can't take something that presents such a one-sided view seriously. It is really just recycling old footage and photos that have been presented a thousand times before without any new thought.

ONE THING THOUGH:I am NOT intolerant to this religion in general, nor do I claim knowing anything about it.I AM intolerent to these people enforcing their rules upon us.If they don't like our rules, get the fuck out, it's our country.

Agreed. I understand that we leave our countries for several reasons, but coming to other countries and telling others what to do isn't gonna work out.

I don't think I'm gonna waste my time seeing this short film. It doesn't sound like it presents the right message whatsoever.

The film isn't as much of a "message" in its own right as it is a collection of different images and videos that represent the brutality and harshness of extremist islamsm. It's nothing new that we haven't seen or heard of.

I will say one thing though, if anything.

Quote:

This is as much a call for moderate Muslims to clean house as a "deliberate provocation." Is it provoocative? Obviously. But if moderate Muslims weren't so deafeningly silent on the subject of radical Islam, and would speak up and say something, Geert Wilders, bless his kafir heart, wouldn't have to say it FOR THEM.

This, is what I agree with. Disregarding anything else about this short film, if it can poke and prod and the vast majority of the moderate muslim community to fight against the extremism even more, than it is doing good I say. The effort to stop this craziness has to start at the roots, after all. No outside force is going to directly influence their ideals, but their own people perhaps can.

One can only give a good and proper judgement over Islam when you know its history and how the different sects emerged and how they developed.

You cant say that in the last 60 years there have been issues with Muslism so Islam is just a bad religion. The last 60 years are less then 5% of the total history of Islam.

I dont see whats wrong with mosques anyway. Burqa's ive only seen when arabian tourists came to the netherlands. No one i know wears it and im a muslim turk with a father which is a rather big figure in the turkish community in the netherlands.

I know most of you are people opposing all forms of religion but i think it is smarter to not bash a religion untill you've looked into it. Ofcourse as a muslim i will give a biased view but i know enough about myself to admit it.

It's simply a reactionary response to a current issue. The "history" and whatnot of the religion is not really an issue when it comes to this sort of retaliation. Hell, a person can still know almost nothing about the religion and be able to put some facts together and be able to oppose it.

This is as much a call for moderate Muslims to clean house as a "deliberate provocation." Is it provoocative? Obviously. But if moderate Muslims weren't so deafeningly silent on the subject of radical Islam, and would speak up and say something, Geert Wilders, bless his kafir heart, wouldn't have to say it FOR THEM.

This, is what I agree with. Disregarding anything else about this short film, if it can poke and prod and the vast majority of the moderate muslim community to fight against the extremism even more, than it is doing good I say. The effort to stop this craziness has to start at the roots, after all. No outside force is going to directly influence their ideals, but their own people perhaps can.

The silence in the islamic communities in terms of the subliminal radical tendencies must be broken. If there is no longer this ignorance towards maltreatment of women and the indoctrination of the followers in the mosque just to name two aspects, then the whole community would be seen in a different light and the society, they live in, would have a different opinion of them.

In some point Geert Wilders is right, there is treat drom radical muslims.
But this movie is so short sighted, it says that the islam IS the same as terrorism and isnt true. You'll get that everybody starts to hate muslims and thats isnt right.

Apparently Wilder's solution to the Islam problem is a "Leitkultur, a culture that draws on "Christian, Jewish, humanistic traditions". I'm not quite sure what that's supposed to mean, but it sounds pretty weak.

Apparently Wilder's solution to the Islam problem is a "Leitkultur, a culture that draws on "Christian, Jewish, humanistic traditions". I'm not quite sure what that's supposed to mean, but it sounds pretty weak.

Granted, Wilders is a big ol' kook. I don't agree with everything or even most things he says, but he's a Dutchman, and he has every right to say what he wishes. I, as an American, support freedom of speech, the press, religion (as long as your religion doesn't habitually sanction murder of "infidels," "apostates," "heretics," "heathens," etc.), even gun ownership by responsible, non-felon adults. Partciularly when any or all of those rights are directed against vicious, murderous extremism.

I actually came to this thread to post about the fact that Wilders is often mis-characterized as a "far-right politician" in the American press. It gives people the wrong idea. Far-right for Dutch politics? Sure, but one has to remember that by the standards of Dutch politics, Barack Obama would probably be considered as some sort of Nazi...

Far-right for Dutch politics? Sure, but one has to remember that by the standards of Dutch politics, Barack Obama would probably be considered as some sort of Nazi...

How so? Are you referring to the liberalness of the Dutch, bless 'em?

Yes, that is what I was alluding to--even Pim Fortuyn, who was a previous "far-right" politician in the Netherlands, was really only interested in limiting immigration to prevent the erosion of Dutch Liberalism. He was also flamboyantly homosexual. When was the last time you heard of a prominent U.S. Republican politician who was (openly) gay?

It's a dishonest, alarmist film, poorly put together (anyone with no budget could have made it and put it on Youtube) of little worth beyond sheer propaganda. But the violent reactions from the extremist only help provide ammo for the viewpoint that Islam is full of violence, and just serve to prove Wilders' point. The film is easily refuted using arguments of logic and reason, but I barely see any Muslim do anything other than whine at its offensiveness at best, and call death threats on Wilders at worst.

I guess this just goes to show that Muslim extremist are among the dumbest people on Earth.

I thought Fitna was a very poorly thought out documentary, designed to shock and provoke. And I think this makes peoples ignorant opinion of Islam, as a peaceful and tolerant religion grow. I also think "What the West Need to Know About Islam" is a much better portrayal of Islam using historical evidence. Only an ignorant fool could say that, that is a propaganda film. And I think anyone who thinks Islam is compatable with western society should watch that documentary. I also don't know why it isn't being aired on TV it is not biggoted biased or provoking (whether muslims decide to react violently, is another story though.)

When Islam becomes powerful you are given two choices convert and except allah as your god, or have a second class status. In ancient times people like this were usually put into slavery, these were usually Jews and Christians.

Islam was spread by the sword, Indonesians probably didn't have choice but to accept Islam.

When Islam becomes powerful you are given two choices convert and except allah as your god, or have a second class status. In ancient times people like this were usually put into slavery, these were usually Jews and Christians.

Islam was spread by the sword, Indonesians probably didn't have choice but to accept Islam.

This isn't completely true. In the middle ages, in places such as the Ottoman empire, non-Muslims were second-hand citizens, but only because they couldn't become involved in politics outside of their district, and a few other things. Mostly, they actually had the same rights as their Muslim counterparts. I had to be the devil's advocate there.

Obviously, though, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all versions and interpretations of the same poor logic and the same evil. It is best that the Abrahamic traditions are completely erased, and that the only records of them left are singular copies of their texts to show how irrational and erroneous the books are, and their histories to show the amount of turmoil caused directly or indirectly by those three cults.

Last edited by Noobbot on Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

When Islam becomes powerful you are given two choices convert and except allah as your god, or have a second class status. In ancient times people like this were usually put into slavery, these were usually Jews and Christians.

Islam was spread by the sword, Indonesians probably didn't have choice but to accept Islam.

True enough (though the first Muslims in Indo were traders), but the founding fathers of Indonesia had no intention of having a state religion. In fact they wanted Indonesia to be a communist country, but decided against it when communism is pretty much atheistic (Indonesia is a host to so many religions: Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, animistic religions). My point is, the country I live in is supposedly a young democracy. We 'have' freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. yet the the religious citizens often think this country is a theocracy like Malaysia.

On a sidenote, the youtube ban has been lifted.

_________________Hear the call Atlanteans,
Proud we stand forever!
Mightiest of warriors,
we sail across the sea!

Theres overwhelming amounts of proof everywhere, that Islam isn't compatable with modern society. We shouldn't need a stupid film to tell us that. Unfortunatly though there are those who would rather be ignorant, daydreaming about the lie of multicultualism. The point is alien cultures need to intergrate into our society and not the other way around. And if there is something that explicitly conflicts with our laws or values, then it is not up to us to tolerate it. Islam imo is the only kind of culture, that has no place in any civilised country.

You do realise you sound like a religious extremist when you say that?

If you would listen to them you´d realise that the so-called islamic terrorists are actually saying very sensible things.
And that their extremism is mainly caused by western corruption.
So I guess I sound like one because I agree with their views (when you strip away the religious rhetoric) .

Theres overwhelming amounts of proof everywhere, that Islam isn't compatable with modern society. We shouldn't need a stupid film to tell us that. Unfortunatly though there are those who would rather be ignorant, daydreaming about the lie of multicultualism. The point is alien cultures need to intergrate into our society and not the other way around. And if there is something that explicitly conflicts with our laws or values, then it is not up to us to tolerate it. Islam imo is the only kind of culture, that has no place in any civilised country.

Back in the Middle Ages, Muslims were the opposite of what Christians were back in those days. They were an advanced people that contributed quite a bit to science and medicine. But just like everything, what was once good about it eventually dwindles due to corruption, war, tyranny, etc.

You do realise you sound like a religious extremist when you say that?

If you would listen to them you´d realise that the so-called islamic terrorists are actually saying very sensible things.And that their extremism is mainly caused by western corruption.So I guess I sound like one because I agree with their views (when you strip away the religious rhetoric) .

Theres overwhelming amounts of proof everywhere, that Islam isn't compatable with modern society. We shouldn't need a stupid film to tell us that. Unfortunatly though there are those who would rather be ignorant, daydreaming about the lie of multicultualism. The point is alien cultures need to intergrate into our society and not the other way around. And if there is something that explicitly conflicts with our laws or values, then it is not up to us to tolerate it. Islam imo is the only kind of culture, that has no place in any civilised country.

Back in the Middle Ages, Muslims were the opposite of what Christians were back in those days. They were an advanced people that contributed quite a bit to science and medicine. But just like everything, what was once good about it eventually dwindles due to corruption, war, tyranny, etc.

Its got nothing to do with corruption and war, it is the fact that Muslims believe the Quran is a perfect book and the literal word of god. Because of this they believe that the Quran is absolute and you can't go beyond it, this is why they refuse to advance. The bible on the other hand is inspired by god, therefore we have left some of the more outdated beliefs and this is why we have progressed so much.

I really wish america didn't go to war with Iraq, because the backlash is ignorance. The point is Muslims refuse to reform their beliefs and insist on following a book of barbarism.