From my memory of reading about it, the DBB was installed in 2006-ish.

I have re-read the thread and have further comments to make...

On 12/02/2013 JMK wrote:>Re the bolt on lhv - if u don't like it don't clip it. Age and injury>being the great leveler would mean that many who don't need it now may>in the future.

This line of thought has been vigorously shot down in quite a few threads.
I think that you ought to read the latest being, Return of The Toe-cutters thread; to see passionate examples of why it doesnít hold good.>>I am aware that there is a large mental difference in leading a climb>that has rings on it and choosing not to clip the rings (they offer a safety>net that u can clip if u need to), and leading a run out climb without>those same number of rings. There is no way round this issue except to>pull the bolts. Same as soloing with a harness and small rack. In lhv case>leave your bolt plate on the ground and ensure all the wires are really>tight and can't be used as a clipping point.

Hmm. Why canít that same logic regarding pulling rings be applied to pulling the LHV bolt?>>I return to my original point - don't retro but like all rules these are>for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of fools . Eg who ever retro'd>profanities - thanks. But why did u bother with the others? But that was>your choice. At the moment I am happy not to clip all the bolts but one>day I might. >>Ps the bolts may be close by buffalo standards but they are not that close>and they much better protect ledge falls.>>The bolts are in now so taking them out will cause more damage and possibly>upset access. To those who do want to clip them leave your bolt plates>on the ground.

I agree with Macciza, when he posted something like,í To those that donít want to use trad, leave your drills on the groundí.

On 7/02/2013 JMK wrote:>Adding bolts next to cracks is a no IMO but Profanity had none and is now>an excellent route . As to bolting the poxy little boulder near pintle>who honestly cares. I saw someone climb it at chrissie but what a waste>of time. IMO bolt ahead on one proviso - do not risk access to the crag.>Re the bolts next to the wide crack - probably protectable on trad but>then a very spicy finish. I know as I did it on trad. If someone wants>to use the bolts instead go for it. People need to lighten up, it is only>climbing.

No. It is more than that. It is a National Park and a finite resource.>>And please no one speak for the whole community cos I am tired of people>telling me what I think.

Hmm, ... and you are not doing that now, by posting on a public forum?

> Keep your anti bolting or your pro bolting attitudes>to yourself cos that is all you are representing.

No. Those who actively retrobolt, misrepresent the generations that went before them on the routes involved. If the anti bolt brigade feel strongly enough about it they will chop the retroís.
None of the above are telling you what to think, as you obviously do that yourself by choosing to climb (or not), the routes in question in whatever state they may be in at the time.>>Enough is said on this forum by those defending the ethics in this sport>that simultaneously threaten access so chill with the hypocrisy.

I think this last statement of yours is pot and kettle stuff, when it is part of a public forum debate.

For all the people who want to remove this bolts how many have actually been there and done these climbs and not only lhv?

It would seem that people are commenting about stuff they have not seen and are getting mighty uptight about something that may not be as bad as it seems just online. If u feel that uptight about it pull the bolts but do them at 5 am in the morning when no is around to see. I still maintain that doing something with crowbars will look very strange to someone at the lookout, that they may report to the rangers and then the bolting is out in the public domain.

It also might be like royal Robbins back in the day - he went to do the 2nd ascent of a route on el cap with intention of stripping all fixed gear but stopped after p1 or p2 . While these are no el cap until u see and climb them and asses the need or not of the bolts then don't comment.

Ps I have climbed them including many of the pure trad climbs there and if extra bolts were added to peroxide i would be unhappy too but I would get over it.

Ps There is a large difference between rings and carrots and not just in how they are clipped. Work it out for yourself and if u can't then u wouldn't understand the answer.

On 13/02/2013 JMK wrote:>For all the people who want to remove this bolts how many have actually>been there and done these climbs and not only lhv?>>It would seem that people are commenting about stuff they have not seen>and are getting mighty uptight about something that may not be as bad as>it seems just online. If u feel that uptight about it pull the bolts but>do them at 5 am in the morning when no is around to see. I still maintain>that doing something with crowbars will look very strange to someone at>the lookout, that they may report to the rangers and then the bolting is>out in the public domain. >>It also might be like royal Robbins back in the day - he went to do the>2nd ascent of a route on el cap with intention of stripping all fixed gear>but stopped after p1 or p2 . While these are no el cap until u see and>climb them and asses the need or not of the bolts then don't comment.>>Ps I have climbed them including many of the pure trad climbs there and>if extra bolts were added to peroxide i would be unhappy too but I would>get over it.>>Ps There is a large difference between rings and carrots and not just>in how they are clipped. Work it out for yourself and if u can't then u>wouldn't understand the answer.

Profanities bolting makes sense as compared to a knotted rope laid down it, but if it has been bolted with the same spacing as on the boulder, then I imagine the choppers might just do as you suggest, and thinning them could be an end result!
I also imagine that Crowlands would be looked at in the same way?

I skipped 1 bolt on profanities. If you stay direct on the arÍte and do it in 1 pitch then the others seem ok ie not too close. I would sugest who ever strips it thinks of people who climb 17 and not 25. It seems a common occurrence for people who lead 25 or more that the bolts are close on the routes near their limit and far apart on routes that are say 17- 21 which is well below their limit. So if the bolts are there already do you thin it down for the 25 climber having a relaxing day or leave it in for the 16 climber pushing his grades? So who chooses? Whoever it is they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

In my opinion this whole issue of fighting retro bolting is like holding back the tide. If any new bolts appeared on crags that I like and I was there I would pull them immediately eg if someone bolted flake crack or Solomon. Hmmm those bolts on Solomon are still there so maybe I am full of shit too.

20 years ago this issue of retro bolting did not exist. For those who started climbing in last 10 years they have climbed routes that have been retro'd and don't know any different. 20'years from now - I guess many more routes will be retro'd. Just so long areas retain their integrity eg araps remains clean etc. Buffalo was always going to be problematic as it has both trad and sport. Just ask people not to bolt next to cracks is about the best u can do. And if a bolt upsets u pull it out immediately. Don't talk about , just do it but also then publicize it as u don't want someone to start a route thinking 10 bolts and there are only 5.

I have seen some shocking practices from people who were instructed at TAFE, such as outdoor ed instructors. Rock experience is very difficult to come by and simply takes time; I've always maintained that learning how to climb is just surviving for five years. I set the bar a number of times for tremendously stupid mistakes.

That jump is only 2 or 3 meters. You just sit on the slab and gingerly scoot down until you're about to slide off then go for it. If you clip the arete on the right you're toast. It's way easier than downclimbing that slot.

You present as a nice enough fellow that I'd do a route or two with you anytime should you be keen.

On 13/02/2013 JMK wrote:>20 years ago this issue of retro bolting did not exist. For those who>started climbing in last 10 years they have climbed routes that have been>retro'd and don't know any different. 20'years from now - I guess many>more routes will be retro'd.

I reckon you make an excellent point, it seems to me, against retroing routes. For people like myself who haven't been climbing that long, how are we to learn ethics if not from those who have gone before? Ethics should be set in stone (hehx3) and taught to new climbers by the community. The VCC, and CliffCare, (and I imagine ever state based climbing club) have a climbers code of conduct that should be taught to all new climbers.

> Just so long areas retain their integrity eg araps remains clean etc. Buffalo was always going to be >problematic as it has both trad and sport.

Doesn't Araps have trad and 'sport' routes? I really want to lead Dramp but am scared stiff of pulling through the bulge above the sentry box on gear;). Is it ok to add a bolt to bring it down to my level of sookyness? No! People need to keep learning and developing until they're comfortable enough to try it. Yesterday was probably one of my most memorable days climbing because I finally lead a climb that I've been dreaming about for the better part of two years. I was scared the whole way but the jubilation I felt at the end was worth every minute... Lets not take that away from future climbers;)

>Just ask people not to bolt next to cracks is about the best u can do.

Really? And if a heartfelt 'please don't bolt' doesn't work? I'm not anti-bolt but I am anti-stupid bolts; like the ones next to the crack system on Redex...

>And if a bolt upsets u pull it out immediately.>Don't talk about , just do it but also then publicize it as u don't want>someone to start a route thinking 10 bolts and there are only 5.

People climbing outdoors need to be prepared for anything including missing bolts.Yesterday at Werribee Gorge we ran into a really cool couple who were leaving as we arrived, at 10:30ish. The reason why they were leaving; they didn't have the gear, or know how, to set up top ropes and thought there were more 'sport' climbs and lower offs. They were both competent leaders but probably shouldn't climb outdoors without a 'mentor' showing them the ropes;)

On 13/02/2013 Miguel75 wrote:>Ethics should>be set in stone (hehx3) and taught to new climbers by the community. The>VCC, and CliffCare, (and I imagine ever state based climbing club) have>a climbers code of conduct that should be taught to all new climbers.

Problem is that climbing is an evolving sport. Look back 50 years ago and it was totally different. Back in the day it wasn't counted as 'real climbing unless you summited something. It was once totally ok to aid your way up bashing in pitons or lines of aid bolts. Evolution happens in everything we do. These days climbers have shorter and shorter attention spans, you only need to look at the popularity of bouldering and sport climbing where it is common to only spend a few hours climbing at a time. This is a far cry from the days of high adventure, long walkins, overnight bivis and long belay sessions whilst your fearless "leader" handrilled 20 bolts in a row.

On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>On 13/02/2013 Miguel75 wrote:>>Ethics should>>be set in stone (hehx3) and taught to new climbers by the community.>The>>VCC, and CliffCare, (and I imagine ever state based climbing club) have>>a climbers code of conduct that should be taught to all new climbers.>>>Problem is that climbing is an evolving sport.

Agreed! And hopefully the clubs are evolving too;) In saying that, bolting next to gear placements and retroing an existing climb should always be a no no. An outright ban on bolts is silly as they have their place. The new climb at Werribee Gorge is fully bolted and looks pretty darn fun. There's no natural gear to speak of and I reckon it fits in with the ambiance of WG;)

On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>Problem is that climbing is an evolving sport... (etc).

Examples like this suggest that its devolving I'd say. Its fine for ethics to change over time, but only if the changes represent an improvement! Given how much better (lighter, stronger, better designed, stickier and even cheaper) all of our gear is these days, what possible justification is there for the current de-evolution of tactics? Climbing is easier than ever you know...

On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>On 13/02/2013 Miguel75 wrote:>>Agreed! And hopefully the clubs are evolving too;) In saying that, bolting>>next to gear placements and retroing an existing climb should always>be>>a no no.>>That is meerly your opinion. There are plenty of climbers who don't agree>with that. It's a noble goal but not the reality of the real world. A bit>like the 10 commandments.

You're right, it is my opinion. Different areas will have slightly different takes on what is and isn't acceptable and that's fine too. I reckon it's good to have a noble goal (or ideal) to hold yourself up to as a measuring stick; just like the 10 commandments;) Bolts have their place, and they're freaking rad in their place, just like climbing on gear is rad, and has its place. I reckon letting things slide towards entropy is a defeatist attitude, and as uwhp510 wrote, a de-evolution.

I quote uwhp510 for posterity;;

On 13/02/2013 uwhp510 wrote:>On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>Problem is that climbing is an evolving sport... (etc). >>Examples like this suggest that its devolving I'd say. Its fine for ethics>to change over time, but only if the changes represent an improvement!> Given how much better (lighter, stronger, better designed, stickier and>even cheaper) all of our gear is these days, what possible justification>is there for the current de-evolution of tactics? Climbing is easier than>ever you know...

On 13/02/2013 uwhp510 wrote:>On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>Problem is that climbing is an evolving sport... (etc). >>Examples like this suggest that its devolving I'd say. Its fine for ethics>to change over time, but only if the changes represent an improvement!> Given how much better (lighter, stronger, better designed, stickier and>even cheaper) all of our gear is these days, what possible justification>is there for the current de-evolution of tactics? Climbing is easier than>ever you know...

Many would say that riding a horse is much more enjoyable than driving a car. It takes more practice to master, requires more skill and takes longer. It produces a more memorable experiance of travel and is better for the environment. But everyone now drives a car because it's quicker and easier!

Horses are a pretty dumb analogy - progress is one thing and infringing on the rights of others (whether or not they are a minority) is another. We do supposedly live in a pluralistic society.

Its a pity the crack bolters think this means adding an "s" to the end of a noun (thats a word that means like a person you know - ya know like ya bro...a place - y'now like ya home.... or a thing - ya know like ya ding dong).

On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>Many would say that riding a horse is much more enjoyable than driving>a car. It takes more practice to master, requires more skill and takes>longer. It produces a more memorable experiance of travel and is better>for the environment. But everyone now drives a car because it's quicker>and easier!

Now you're speaking my language;) I worked a ranch in southern Utah for a long time. Horses are rad; they're smart, they're fun to meander along with and you can wear chaps, pronounced shaps, or chinks, pronounced with a hard ch sound like cherry, anytime you like without feeling like the 7th Village Person;)

On 13/02/2013 Miguel75 wrote:>On 13/02/2013 JMK wrote:>Doesn't Araps have trad and 'sport' routes? I really want to lead Dramp>but am scared stiff of pulling through the bulge above the sentry box on>gear;). Is it ok to add a bolt to bring it down to my level of sookyness?>No! People need to keep learning and developing until they're comfortable

On 13/02/2013 Miguel75 wrote:>On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>Horses struggle to walk on bitumen and get scared of cars. Sounds like>>the cars are infringing on the horses!>>Untrained horses yeah! I could shoot off my horse, Satan, and he doesn't>even flinch;) >>With the right gear, and care, horses and bitumen are fine. Just don't>gallop for miles;)>

Just pointing out that the attraction of the old and tradional isn't going to be attractive to everyone. Humans are programmed to continue pushing into new places, developing new inventions and extracting from nature. It is one of the reasons we are such a successful species. I don't totally agree with a lot of 'progress' in the modern world, but I don't have my head in the sand. The world is changing every day - climbing will change with it. Have a think about the world you were born into - for me the late 70s. Obviously there has been vast changes in every aspect of life - why should you expect that climbing world would be excluded from this change? My great aunt died a few months back - she was 101. When she was born the aero plane didn't exist. Neither did the modern car. Or the phone. Or computers. Or nylon. Or bolted easy routes.