The program is about 7 minutes long, so it's not a lot to listen to, but it does have plenty of interesting information. It is a shame that the guest didn't go into depth about the history of same-sex marriage, but even getting out the facts that marriage is not an "always has been, always will be" institution is a start.

Also, since it was used as an example in the program, civic marriage in France is really quite painless, there weren't even many headaches involved in my international marriage. It really would be a good model for the US to follow, in my opinion.

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"If it had not been for the discontent of a few fellows who had not been satisfied with their conditions, you would still be living in caves. Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization.

Progress is born of agitation. It is agitation or stagnation." -Eugene Debs (1855- 1926)

I mean, really, that's pretty much the epic fail in religious terms, and I think a lot of the "anti-gay marriage stuff" may be projection because marriage is falling into shambles and there is not a damn thing the religious can do about it.

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"No common man could believe such a thing, you'd have to be an intellectual to fall for anything as stupid as that."-Orwell

I mean, really, that's pretty much the epic fail in religious terms, and I think a lot of the "anti-gay marriage stuff" may be projection because marriage is falling into shambles and there is not a damn thing the religious can do about it.

I disagree with this last part. I believe that traditional marriage is far from doomed. The problem, really, is those who wish to defend it the most typically have the wrong approach. They beat people with a stick all the time (chastising anyone who strays at all from the standard) and seldom offer the carrot (by promoting the positive value of more traditional marriage). I believe that's a major factor in why divorce and adultery have become prevalent - a lot of people are pressured into marriage without fully appreciating what its all about.

As an aside, I did a research paper back in 2000 that focused on the clash between traditional and modern relationships. According to all of my sources, the divorce rate in the US has been steadily declining since the 70's and 80's - that suggests fewer people are getting married these days before they're ready for it.

I have no figures to back this up, but it seems to me that many of the most religious communities are having the biggest problems with family collapse, specifically African American communities and "trailor trash" communities.

There seems to be less cultural pressure to enforce the belief that there is a duty of care from a male to his children. There's a lot of trailor trash out here, and I'm friends with a lot of 2+gen folks who take it for granted that the father won't stick around.

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"No common man could believe such a thing, you'd have to be an intellectual to fall for anything as stupid as that."-Orwell

I have no figures to back this up, but it seems to me that many of the most religious communities are having the biggest problems with family collapse, specifically African American communities and "trailor trash" communities.

There seems to be less cultural pressure to enforce the belief that there is a duty of care from a male to his children. There's a lot of trailor trash out here, and I'm friends with a lot of 2+gen folks who take it for granted that the father won't stick around.

I don't have the figures either, but from what I've read and heard, I believe you're right about higher divorce rates amongst the very religious. Typically Baptists and Evangelicals have the highest divorce rates, while Catholics and the non-religious have the lowest.

My unsourced extemporizing finds that the primary reason divorce rates are much higher nowadays can be blamed on the extensive average lifespan of industrialized nations and the progress of equal rights for women.

Back in the "good ol' days" of lower divorce rates it was a lot easier to wait for the "Death" in "death do us part" or quietly murder your now-hated spouse without arousing suspicion. Additionally, in those halcyon days it was rather expected that a woman would simply put up with philandering and fighting because "only whores got divorces," even if the man spent 5 days out of 7 with his mistress.

I have no figures to back this up, but it seems to me that many of the most religious communities are having the biggest problems with family collapse, specifically African American communities and "trailor trash" communities.

There seems to be less cultural pressure to enforce the belief that there is a duty of care from a male to his children. There's a lot of trailor trash out here, and I'm friends with a lot of 2+gen folks who take it for granted that the father won't stick around.

In my (limited) experience those who assume the father will not stick around never got married in the first place. If they did get married they are assumed to stick around until they go to jail.

Of course, out-of-wedlock children is a related topic, but remains subtly different.

But I find the biggest cause of all these problems seem to be that the adults trying to indoctrinate their kids always assume that the past was like Leave it to Beaver when reality was more like Forrest Gump. They think to themselves that kids don't know about sex at age N even though they were aware of it at age N-10, they think, "Back in my day getting married AFTER getting pregnant was scandalous," despite having at least 3 neighbors that did it assuming they didn't do it themselves. The list goes on and on.

As an aside, I did a research paper back in 2000 that focused on the clash between traditional and modern relationships. According to all of my sources, the divorce rate in the US has been steadily declining since the 70's and 80's - that suggests fewer people are getting married these days before they're ready for it.

Yes. Betsey Stevens and Justin Wolfers have an interesting theory about this. They suggest that in the past husband and wife did very different work. Marriage was a means of sharing the work of having a family. Today though it is more about shared enjoyment. I'm not sure if it's accurate but it makes a degree of sense.

In the UK too the rate of divorce has been falling since the late 70s.

As an aside, I did a research paper back in 2000 that focused on the clash between traditional and modern relationships. According to all of my sources, the divorce rate in the US has been steadily declining since the 70's and 80's - that suggests fewer people are getting married these days before they're ready for it.

Yes. Betsey Stevens and Justin Wolfers have an interesting theory about this. They suggest that in the past husband and wife did very different work. Marriage was a means of sharing the work of having a family. Today though it is more about shared enjoyment. I'm not sure if it's accurate but it makes a degree of sense.

Indeed, it makes perfect sense to me. That was a cornerstone of my rather amateur research paper.