The Mariners successfully prevented runs in 2011, but they sure couldn't score them. Seattle finished last in the American League in runs scored for the second consecutive season, plating just 556 runners. There's no point in dwelling on the Mariners' inability to score, but it's worth mentioning that none of their regulars had 20 homers, 30 doubles, a .280 average, a .350 on-base-average or a .470 slugging percentage. Around the Majors, 17 players met each of those benchmarks, yet not a single Mariners hitter could meet even one of them.

GM Jack Zduriencik is the one tasked with improving the Mariners' offense. When the longtime executive signed a multiyear extension in August, team president Chuck Armstrong praised him for accumulating talent through scouting and player development. But Zduriencik, who drafted Prince Fielder and Ryan Braun with the Brewers, hasn't been able to infuse similar might into the Mariners' batting order since becoming their GM in 2008.

For each of the past five seasons, the Mariners had a payroll of more than $90MM and they should have money to spend this offseason, with Milton Bradley’s contract no longer on the books. If the Mariners retain Kelley, Vargas and League through arbitration, that would put them in the $69MM range, before accounting for minimum salary players. They have cash but with holes at DH, left field, third base and shortstop, the question is where they’ll spend the money and how much they’re willing to spend.

Despite the abundance of internal candidates in left and at DH, that’s a logical corner of the free agent market for the Mariners to explore. David Ortiz (who signed with the Mariners as an amateur in 1992), Jason Kubel, Ryan Ludwick, Josh Willingham, and Michael Cuddyer are among the free agent designated hitters and corner outfielders whose names the Mariners front office could consider and there will be options on the trade market, too.

Minor leaguer Nick Franklin, a possible long-term solution at short, wasn't quite as impressive in 2011 as he was in 2010, his first full season. Perhaps the Mariners will look for an upgrade from the punchless Brendan Ryan by making a play for a second-tier free agent shortstop like Clint Barmes, Jamey Carroll, Alex Gonzalez or Marco Scutaro. It wouldn't hurt to ask about Jed Lowrie, who could be squeezed out in Boston if the Red Sox exercise Scutaro's option.

The Mariners could improve their offense on the trade market, but more than anything else, their established players must rebound. Seattle is hoping Ichiro doesn’t decline in 2012 as much as he did last season. The 37-year-old right fielder fell short of the 200-hit plateau (184) for the first time in 11 Major League seasons and posted career lows in batting average (.272), on-base percentage (.310) and slugging percentage (.335). Franklin Gutierrez, who missed half of the season with stomach and oblique issues, needs to rebound and Justin Smoak needs to replicate his early-season success for a full season.

It wouldn't be a Mariners offseason without a good number of trade rumors surrounding Hernandez. Zduriencik has steadfastly held onto King Felix despite inquiries from around the league. Three years from now, however, the right-hander becomes a free agent. The Mariners face mounting pressure to win before their ace hits the open market, though it's doubtful that Seattle will part with Hernandez this offseason.

The Mariners could non-tender Aardsma (he underwent Tommy John surgery in July) and trade League, but that would leave the 'pen barren and force Zduriencik to acquire extra arms. While Seattle's bullpen had a solid 3.61 ERA last year, only Twins relievers struck out fewer batters per nine than the Mariners (6.3), so they should look to add relief options even if League is back and they retain Aardsma.

It makes sense for the Mariners to add rotation depth, proactively seek bullpen depth and look to upgrade over Ryan at short. As for left field, third base and DH, their internal options are interesting enough to warrant a look even if quality trumps quantity when it comes to Major League position players. The Mariners don't have to spend extravagantly on a star like Fielder to become relevant again, but they will need restored health and further development from budding stars like Ackley, Pineda and Smoak.

As a member of baseball's only four-team division, the Mariners have better odds than most. Could they replicate Arizona's worst-to-first turnaround and threaten for the playoffs in 2012? It seems unlikely, since Seattle will need more breaks than most teams, but they could be a .500 team next year.

They need a good DH, and a good 3B, Fielder is too expensive for them, Ortiz would be a great, great , great option, maybe Catricala is an option for the 3B job, and Nick Franklin should be the answer at SS

I think SS was less of the Mariners problem this season, but I wouldn’t mind a change if it is significant though I’d probably concentrate on other problems first. I would also argue that improving the catching situation is a priority. Olivo not only has an awful bat, but also refuses to go down and block balls allowing some catchable wild pitches…

3B upgrade would be nice, but there isn’t much available through free agency or trade besides Wright. DH would be the easiest place to upgrade, and it’d be nice if it is a DH that can handle OF though not a must. I don’t think you can expect to go into the season thinking Gutierrez/Ichiro will be injury free or effective so if someone needs to be replaced you can have Casper play center/right instead of having to play the slow-footed Mike Carp in spacious LF in SafeCo. Mike Carp can handle LF though so the DH doesn’t necessarily need to be an outfielder.

I also believe Mariners should add one starting pitcher and quite possibly two if they non-tender or trade Vargas. There are a lot of interesting SP avaibable who can leave the seat warm for guys like Hultzen, and Paxton.

This is a lot of position to improve, but like the writer said, the player doesn’t need to be a guy like Fielder. The Mariners would probably make a better improvement spreading the money this season to fill multiple needs unless the Mariners opened up there wallet like some believe they will this off-season.

I agree that there is not a problem at shortstop. But you cant say olivo is bad i doubt any other catcher going into free agency is like him he almost had 20 homers. I also believe hultzen should start in the 4th spot in 2012 i mean why else would you draft him first round. But they do need someone to fill the third spot in the rotation.
I think if the mariners do have a quanity of money they should go after aramize ramirez to play third it a right handed batter that can hit for power. Last at dh they should get willingham a guy that can Dh and platoon roles. With 20 to 25 million they could easily do this.

If you watch Olivo everyday you’ll know why people can’t stand him. Judging someone by homeruns is so 1995. He also had the 2nd highest strike out rate in the AL behind none other than all-time strkeout king Mark Reynolds. But I’ll bet you’re a big Mark Reynolds fan too.

Yes I like both of those players and its simply because they drive in runs for the team. If u didnt notice he might have struck out alot but he almost led the team in homers and almost rbi’s reynolds is the second best hitter for the orioles only because they have hardy. I also use to be a fan of cust who was winning games for the athletics with 35 homers and over 100 rbi’s for three straight years. I was also a mike cameron fan who hit 3 homers against the chi sox’s in one game but struck out the most in the al that season.

Congratulations, you like homeruns and RBI. Olivo is awful, one of the worst catchers in baseball, no debate. He will not be the starting catcher in Seattle next year. You ought to enter 2011 and learn how to watch baseball outside of HR.

The thing is, he likely WILL be the #1 catcher or in a 50-50 split. Home Runs and RBI ARE still important. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the M’s go after one of the Pirates FA catchers to platoon with Olivo.

To be honest i dont think Seattle are anywhere near a .500 team yet… but i am excited for 2-3 years down the track. I do want us to keep going with the young ones… dont trade just because, like the Mike Morse for Ryan Langerhans trade.
I think Left field will solve its self this year. I wish Peguero would make contact, he is a big dude. Halman did hit above .300 for most of his time and Casper Wells showed he has pop and a strong case to push. Robinson has some tools (no arm). We have too many good kids out there. Seager will start at third and i see no problem with Brendan Ryan next season… gets dirty and has a great glove. He did hit very well in June (i think it was).

Just wondering, if Cleveland dont bring back Grady Sizemore… would he make a good case for left field? I’m sure Wedge will have an opinion on that….

I think they do have a .500 team and a playoff team, but defiantly not a contendor in the playoffs. They have to trade some of the prospects in left field though I mean look how many there are! Saunders has already had 2 to 3 years of chances he should be traded in a package with peguero to the redsoxs I mean the redsoxs would love us then and maybe will get a solid 3rd starter and jed lowrie we could only hope. Because with that short right field wall at fenway they would murder other teams. I mean my hopes of lineup and rotation this year are like this.

1.Ichiro (L) Rf
2.Lowrie (S) acquired from redsoxs SS
3.Ludwick (R) free agent DH/OF
4.Ackley (L) 2B You have to admit this guy can just hit no matter where he is placed so lets let him clean the bases right
5.Smoak (S) 1B
6.Ramirez (R) 3B free agent cubs
7.Carp (L) LF
8.Olivo(R) C
9.Guttriez(R) or casper wells if he is not back to form.

Rotation:

1) Felix hernandez (R)
2) Pineda (R)
3) Lester(L) or perhaps a liriano if it becomes a three team deal
4) Paxton
5) Hultzen
vargas is more of a long reliever
Brandon league as the CP
Aardsma as set up

Maybe if you learned to spell, I could read what you write a bit better. Anyway, this all seems very video-game-like. Maybe we should just sign Sabathia, Wilson, Reyes, Pujols, and Fielder while we’re at it.

“Saunders has already had 2 to 3 years of chances he should be traded in a package with peguero to the redsoxs I mean the redsoxs would love us then and maybe will get a solid 3rd starter and jed lowrie we could only hope. Because with that short right field wall at fenway they would murder other teams.”

Besides sounding like a 4th grader here, are you actually suggesting the M’s acquire Lowrie and Lester for Saunders and Peguero, based on Fenway being hitter friendly for lefties? Saunders/Peguero would not make the Sox roster. I especially can’t get over the part about “the redsox would love us then…”

Lastly, Vargas is a solid 3/4 starter, definitely not a long reliever and Aardsma is out for 2012, or at least until August.

It’s really hard to believe how poorly Figgins has done. What in the world happened to him? When you sign a big contract like he did, you can’t just give up and turn into a lump because your team sucks.

I probably would have said the safeco field effect like with Beltre and others before him, but it just seems like every aspect of Figgins’ game has fallen completely off the face of the planet. He was fun to watch in Anaheim, so I hope he rebounds, whether it be Seattle or somewhere else.

Could not agree more! As a Yankees fan, I became accustomed to seeing Figgins just terrorize the Yanks with his all-round play with the Angels. A bloop single in a clutch situation, blink and he steals second, on the field he robs a batter of a basehit. Last year he looked lost, I thought, ‘maybe he’s having a tough time trying to justify the contract’. This year he looked exactly like last year and not just againist NY. Can’t figure it out.

Yawn, here we go again with the Mariners. Every person in baseball, not located in Seattle, knows that the only way for this team to improve is to trade Felix. I’ve said it 100 times, some of the best writers in baseball have said it 100 times. Besides, there were some real concerns with Felix in the 2nd half this season and I’m hoping the guy wasn’t hurt and wasn’t already regressing. Its possible and he dropped velocity. If the Mariners do this right, exactly the way Jack Z wants it, is to make sure he holds onto Felix for his reasons (apparently not the organizations), he’ll burn him out 1 year before free agency and when he is about to turn 28 or so. It looks like its heading in that direction. It’s really very sad.

You can say it a million times and the result will be the same, Felix Hernandez will always be a Mariner. Toughest pill for baseball bullshi!!ers like espn and the mlb network who only cover 5 teams and the rest are fillers.

Zduriencik takes over
2009: 85 wins
Team doesn’t need to trade Felix to win. Zduriencik is making a huge mistake by hanging up the phone if somebody calls asking about Felix, but in no way does the team NEED to trade Felix to win.

As for the concerns, that’s a crappy way to go about starting pitching. All pitchers carry risk. And I, living in Seattle, never once heard about these so-called concerns, unless they came from Nick Cafardo as an excuse for the Red Sox to buy-low on his value.

What “real concerns?” The only month he looked even vaguely off was September, and he only pitched in 4 games. Four games in which the M’s weren’t running the usual 5-man rotation, at that, so his routine was out of synch. Try again.

You know century, you have been preaching this for a long time. And its one thing to sit there and covet another team’s player, everyone does that. But its another to go around acting like the ruling elite and telling the lowly peasants that they are just stupid and wrong and need to let you do things the right way cause you know better.

By WAR Felix was still a top5 pitcher in the AL this year, and also by WAR he was only 0.7 wins less of a pitcher than last year. Also with WAR, remember that there is about a 15% margin for error, so realistically Felix didn’t have a hugely significantly different season than he had last year, when he was the best pitcher in the league. So basically, you’re way wrong.

Some of the best writers in baseball have also said the Mariners would be nuts to trade Felix, mainly because he is still so young. Who could you possibly get back that would be any better over a long time horizon? I agree with those writers. Superstar pitching is the most valuable commodity in baseball, and the most difficult to obtain. If you have it, and especially if that pitching is young, you hold on to it and build around it. I think that’s what Zduriencik is doing.

What a lot of people don’t really seem to know is that the Mariners CAN spend money if they want to. They have this ability. There is no reason that if Jack Z thinks they can contend, he can get multiple free agents for big bucks if ownership allows it. They haven’t spent the last few years because they are not 1 or 2 good pieces away. They are doing the right thing now by not going after these big names until they can get closer to contending. Payroll could jump to $120 million quite easily, maybe that will be next offseason when some more of these young guys like Hultzen, Paxton, Franklin, and maybe F. Martinez or Catricala will be able to contribute at the big league level.
This offseaon I think its possible that they go after a little bullpen help, maybe a number 4 type starter, but I also see them making a trade for a good young ML 3rd basemen or Catcher. I don;t see them doing too much in the DH or LF area yet, because of Carp’s last 2 1/2 months of the season this year I believe he will get every shot to be the full time DH next year. LF comes down to a battle between Wells and Robinson because Halman, Peguero, and Saunders have done nothing to prove they are viable options there.

You’r post has got to be the best I have seen so far in this group. Halman, peguero and Saunders need to be traded I agree Carp fulfills his duty and they need Well’s and Robinson for when Ichiro’s career comes to an end, But I believe we will keep Ichiro in the clubhouse as a mentor and get him a ring. We do have more money as you said its been hidden with the japanese executive owners. I think Z may make a run at the Japanese starting pitcher draguzic he is amazing and they would give him the money if he could pull of the deal I mean this pitcher has a 92 mph slider so yeah.

Yeah I know that the guy who owns the mariners is the owner of the Nintendo company which is one of the only reasons we even were able to get Ichiro. So i do think he would mentor the team if they needed him too. Ive been a Mariners fan since I was in 2nd grade so it’s been 11 years know and I have loved them thru thick and thin. Btw ur not rude I like a little rivalry or contradiction.

You must be stupid,, there’s no japanese pitcher named “draguvzic” that just sounds russian… the only possible player that you may be referring to would be darvish… and ichiro would never be a mentor, he is not a team player and with his unwillingness to even speak english, there’s no way he will be a good mentor

I would bank on Ichiro having a comeback year rather than trading him for a scrub after he comes off of his worst year, not to mention the fact that the Mariners have Danny Hultzen and James Paxton near-MLB ready, and that they could sign a pitcher out of free agency if the situation calls for it, though I expect them to direct that to hitting.

SS Brenden Ryan was worth 2.6WAR to the 2011 Seattle Mariners. With a .248BA, he wasn’t very good at the plate, but his plus defense makes up for what his offense lacks. Also, Carp’s OPS of .791 in 2011 should be enough to warrant the DH slot in the line-up for the majority if not all of 2012. He really hit some monster shots last season, while maintaining a .276 BA; he deserves a good look as an every day MLB DH.

After current contract obligations, approximate raises via arbitration, and approximate minimum salary players, the M’s are currently at about 75M player payroll for the 2012 season. If they stick with the same budget for the 2012 as they had in 2011, they should have about 20M to spend.

In my opinion, the M’s have holes to fill at SP, 3B, and LF for the 2012 season. If the M’s consider themselves unlikely to contend in 2012 and want to continue with the let the kids play approach, then I like Michael Cuddyer as a free agent addition. If one of Figgins, Seager, or Liddi impress at 3B, then Cuddyer can play in LF. If one of Robinson, Wells, or Saunders impress in LF, then Cuddyer can play at 3B. He also has plus ability to cover 1B when needed. He offers power, but even at the age of 33, he won’t come cheap. It will probably take a 3YR/27-30M deal to land the versatile FA. That is 9-10M in 2012. Because at least one of Figgins, Seager, Lidd, Robinson, Wells, or Saunders should stick, the investment in the LF/3B should be worth it.

Other than 3B and LF, the M’s need at least one starting pitcher. And I think most Mariner fans would agree that it is likely that Erik Bedard will re-sign with Seattle. And given Bedard’s history of injury, but considerable success in 2011, a 1YR/7M deal would be reasonable. While he is comfortable with Seattle, given his 2011 trade to Boston, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a no-trade clause in a new contract between Erik and the M’s. If Bedard can stay healthy through July, he would have served his purpose, as one of Hultzen, Paxton, or even Walker could be ready to step into the rotation.

The line-up could consist of: C Olivo, 1B Smoak, 2B Ackley, 3B Figgins, SS Ryan, LF Cuddyer, CF Gutierrez, RF Ichiro, and DH Carp. I say Figgins because it would be nice if he was able to redeem himself for the first half of his 4YR/36M deal with Seattle. And given Ichiro’s decline, the Mariners might finally have an open slot at lead-off. The rotation could be: RH Felix, RH Pineda, LH Vargas, LH Bedard, and RH Beavan.

This would leave the M’s with about 3-4M to spend on an addition to the bullpen. It would be nice to add a lefty like Affeldt, or Lopez.

Nice job, Eric. I like Cuddyer, too, though I seriously doubt he’d go for 3b. Hasn’t played there regularly since ’05. No matter, I’m a Seager Believer! I’d also keep an eye on Swisher or Willingham. I think we can almost guarantee at least one veteran bat added to the lineup. JZ will not go ALL youth. Will not happen.

I really like Nick Swisher, but the Yankees would be nuts not to exercise his 10.25M club option for the 2012 season. Pretty much the only way that he plays for the 2012 Mariners is if they acquire him from the Yankees by trade.

Josh Willingham would be a nice addition to the Mariner line-up, but he will likely come at a slightly higher cost than Cuddyer, with less versatility. And the M’s need to squeeze all they can out of about 20M they have to spend this off-season.

Other free agent names for the vacancies at LF and 3B that I wouldn’t mind seeing the M’s interested in include David Dejesus for spacious LF and Aramis Ramirez for 3B.

Another interesting player that might reach the free agent market is Grady Sizemore. Between minor injuries such as the groin and major DL stints such as his elbow and knee surgeries, he hasn’t been an everyday player since the 08 season. The Indians hold an 8.5M club option, so I wouldn’t say that it is or isn’t an easy call for the Cleveland front office. If he became available, you would have to think that Wedge would be in favor of acquiring him.

I know everyone expects them to exercise the option, but I’m not convinced. It’s NY. Some heads have to roll and his post-season struggles are becoming legendary. They will no doubt spend a TON on rebuilding their starting 5.

I like DeJesus alright as a “if not” target. He should be affordable, is a good guy in the Sweeney mold, plus him and Felix are good pals. Ramirez too expensive.

This is exactly what I was thinking. I especially like getting Cuddyer, as we have multiple people (Wells and Liddi in particular) who have shown serious potential at 3B and LF but are by no means sure bets, so getting a veteran bat who can fill both slots if needed is a great use of resources.

When it comes to starting pitching, I agree with you for the most part. I’d like to see this as our rotation in 2012:
1- King Felix
2- Pineda
3- Free agent (possibly lower in the rotation depending on who it is)
4- Vargas–>Paxton/Walker
5- Beavan/Hultzen

Since Vargas has consistently pitched extremely well in the first half of the year before collapsing for the second half, I’d like to pitch him until Paxton or another young guy with plus stuff is ready before trading him for some bats at catcher and OF/3B. Beavan, meanwhile, I’m ok with at the 5th slot but I’d prefer to give it to Hultzen if he’s ready this year. Meanwhile, while Bedard would be cool as a FA considering his history of injuries will seriously weigh down his contract value compared to the last time we signed him, it’d be awesome if the owners decided to bankroll Yu Darvish (they stand to make a LOT of money with another japanese superstar so its not too unlikely), and I’d even be ok with Jamie Moyer as he’d be a great veteran presence for our young pitchers as well as incredibly consistent (although thats mostly because of nostalgia).

At catcher I like Olivo for now, he’s not great but we don’t have any ready prospects. He also sets a great example with his hard-play and clutch hitting, I can’t tell you how awesome it is to see that guy dive to beat out an infield single late in the game when we need a runner or hit a game winning homer. Smoak, Wells, and Guti all performed well while not injured/sick, and all play good-to-great defense (mind blowingly great in Guti’s case). At short Brendan Ryan’s fine, he’s one of the best, if not the best defensive shortstop in the game and has hit well at times. Assuming these guys perform like they showed the ability to last year and rebound from injuries/illness, here’s my ideal 2012 lineup:
1- ichiro RF (if he doesn’t go back to being one of the best leadoff hitters of all time we can move him down a bit, although we need to keep him in the lineup)
2- ackley 2B
3- carp DH/occasional 1B
4- smoak 1B/occasional DH
5- wells LF (assuming he plays like he did before getting nailed by the fastball)
6- cuddyer 3B (until Liddi’s ready, possibly LF if Wells doesn’t do well)
7- ryan SS
8- gutierrez CF
9- olivo C

Good analysis, but still is a little too light on adding offense. I think we have to be more aggressive at 3B, LF, and catcher.

With some really talented guys knocking at the door for the starting rotation (Paxton, Hultzen, Erasmo Ramirez), I’d error on the side of putting more money into offense and less into starting pitching….although Bedard at the right price, or another free agent at the right price…makes sense. I’m just not sure $7 million is the right price.

I made this its own post, but its in reply to a lot of people, I think there is a lot of ‘group think’ going on with Carp. I think a lot of Ms fans are really hungering for offense and at the first sight if it that person is Edgar-incarnate. I think realistically, you need to slow down on Carp. On a good team his ideal role would be one of a Stan Javier from the 2001 team. A guy that plays some LF, 1B, DH and gets about 350-400 ABs in a season. He’s a nice player but for the positions that he has to fill he can only exist on a good team if you have hitters at odd positions like 1997 arod at SS, etc.

On the other hand, his power could continue to improve and he could become Raul Ibanez at the plate. We just don’t know. But until there is someone to push him out of the way, the Mariners might as well give him 600 plate appearances a season and see what happens. An .800 OPS does look like Edgar on this offense.

I really don’t think anyone is realistically looking at Carp as the savior of the franchise. He isn’t going to be a hall of famer or perennial all-star. But he can be a serviceable piece moving forward if he can continue to hit like he did in the second half. I certainly would take .265 and 25 hr over a full season, hopefully primarily at DH because he sucks in LF. If we can plug him in for 450-500 at bats, the M’s can spend money or resources elsewhere.

Maybe mike morse but I doubt Asdrubal cabrera I mean can u say franchise player easily a type-B free agent and if he has multiple good years Type-A free agent. We would have a better chance getting choo back lol

I’m not sure why you dislike Seager so much. He’s done nothing but hit since he signed a professional contract. He’s surprised everyone. That being said, because he can play 2B/3B/SS and is likely never going to be All-Star calibre or “the answer” at any one of those positions, he may end up being an outstanding bench guy who plays all over the field as needed. Maybe a mini-Mike McLemore.

Talk to me in 3 years when they haven’t even sniffed the playoffs & he’s playing for Texas, Detroit, Anaheim, Boston, NYY, Chitown north, Philly, Atlanta, Washington. He’s a flat out fool. This team ain’t gonna get better in 3 years & you know it. Lightning would have to strike not once, not twice, but thrice for that to be even a remote possibility. Face it, this team just doesn’t have what it takes to be competitive. I don’t know how Arizona did it, oh wait yeah I do, they have some guy named Upton, some pitcher with the last name Kennedy, & a Gibson Manager. You wanna win, unload the farm (minus our pitchers) for proven bats (Votto) & go from there. Can you find me any more legit big time bats that are available in the trade market. I dare you.

I think the Mariners are likely to be competitive as early as 2013. Zduriencik has a history of building from the farm system, so you rarely see the flash and dash at the major league level. In just 2+ years, there’s not more than 2-3 players from the Bavasi GM era that are now even in the Top 20 prospects, because Zduriencik has added so much better talent, some of it looking like potential all-star material.

Justin Smoak at 1B, Dustin Ackley at 2B, Nick Franklin at SS, Fransico Martinez and Alex Liddi at 3B, Trayvon Robinson and Vinny Catricala potentially in LF, Mike Carp at DH/1b/LF, and very young and powerful pitching in Felix Hernandez, Michael Pineda, James Paxton, Dan Hultzen, Taijuan Walker, Erasmo Ramirez, Brian Moran, Steven Pryor, Blake Beavan, Tom Wilhelmson, Josh Lueke…all suggest that this team is making very good headway.

They can even make 2012 interesting if they fill in some temporary gaps with solid bats while the young talent emerges…perhaps signing Grady Sizemore for LF, Ryan Doumit at C, and someone solid if not spectacular at 3B, maybe a Wison Betimit or Greg Dobbs.

If you’ve got strong pitching, you can get competitive in a lot bigger hurry than if you don’t have strong pitching. And the M’s, despite their shortcomings, do have strong pitching.