_2) [1-2c] ..THICK ATMOSPHERE ..ROCK STRATA FORMATION - SEDIMENTARY ROCK ORIGIN - ROCK FORMATION BY TSUNAMIS - GRAND CANYON SAND DUNES - NO OROGENY WITH GREAT FLOOD - SEDIMENTARY STRATA - GREAT FLOOD HUMAN FOSSILS ..FLOOD RUNOFF<>Part 2: youtube.com/watch?v=pMSSwoJFq-83'58": The main strata of the Grand Canyon contain marine fossils. Redwall limestone is in the middle, containing many sea animals. It's 7 ft thick and over 180 miles wide.8'20": In France there are similar sea animals buried with amphibians, spiders, scorpions, millipedes, insects and reptiles. There's similar mixture in CO along with birds etc. Similar in WY.11'00": In Tasmania an 80 ft thick stratum contains broken shells, a toothed whale and a possum.17'12": 7 trillion tons of vegetation are buried in the world's coal beds. Same coal beds in the U.S. extend also from England to Russia.... Delicate creatures are preserved. Some fish are preserved right after eating another fish, or giving birth, as evidence of rapid burial.Video: The Mystery of Coal: youtube.com/watch?v=GlNudoEPSsMThis says coal consists largely of pieces of tree bark, wood, leaves etc. Peat bogs don't contain that, so coal doesn't come from there, despite the popular theory. But in Spirit Lake after the Mt. St. Helens eruption there was found layers of tree bark on the bottom, while the tree logs were floating on top.<A>Video: Extraordinary Evidence that Dinosaurs Lived with Man: youtube.com/watch?v=dWe3cteDuBcIt says 95% of fossils are from marine invertebrates. 4.5% are from plants and algae. Vertebrates make up .0125%. This isn't widely mentioned, because it gives the impression of a Flood Deposit.

__WETTER CLIMATE- GLOBAL CLIMATE WETTER FOR CENTURIES AFTER THE FLOODIn the Middle East prior to 1000 BC large forest trees covered especially the higher elevations. Israel and Jordan supported a wild animal population not unlike that of North Africa. Similar evidence exists for North and South America, Asia and Australia (Jonathan Gray, The Corpse Came Back, chapter 20). And the transition from ice age to the present desert environment took place between 2250 to 2000 BC. (See Appendix 1.)

__ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS DURING GREAT FLOOD- Evidence of Civilization Destroyed by Global CataclysmCITY 6,000 FEET UNDER THE SEA-In 1965 a research vessel, "Anton Brunn", was investigating the Nazca Trench, off Peru. At a depth of 6,000 feet a photograph revealed huge upright pillars and walls, some of which seemed to have writing on them. In other nearby locations, apparently artificially shaped stones lay on their sides, as though they had toppled over.- ARTIFACTS UNCOVERED-1-In Western Australia in 1975, water drillers near Perth struck a concrete wall 30 feet below the surface.-2-At Aix-en-Provence, France, from 1786 to 1788, coins, stumps of columns and other worked stones, were discovered 50 feet down, below eleven beds of compact limestone.-3-At Blue Lick Springs, Kentucky, underground, below the remains of a prehistoric mastodon, was discovered a pavement of cut-stone tiles.-4-In the autumn of 1868, in a strip of coal mine near Hammondsville, Ohio, at 100 feet below ground was found a large, smooth, slate wall covered with inscriptions similar to hieroglyphics, in lines about three inches apart. Crowds flocked to see, but the slate soon crumbled and the writing was destroyed.-5-In November 1829, in a quarry twelve miles northwest of Philadelphia, at a depth of 69-70 feet below ground, a block of marble was found, which bore an indentation containing the raised alphabet characters 'I' and 'U'. Two years later the discovery appeared in an illustration in the American Journal of Science, vol.19, p.361.-6-In Omaha, Nebraska, about 130 feet underground, coalminers found a carved slab of rock with diamond shapes. In the centre of each diamond was an engraving of a human face (Omaha Daily News, 1897).-7-In 1928 in coal mine No. 5, near Heavener, Oklahoma, at a depth of two miles, miners encountered a wall composed of 12 inch cube concrete blocks polished so that all six sides acted as mirrors. About 100 to 150 yards further down the shaft, the same wall or one very similar was uncovered. That part of the mine was then filled up.-8-Coal was NOT laid down 300 million years ago, but very recently, after civilized man.-9-Huge stone cities, very ancient, with paved streets and tall pyramids choked with forest, have been sighted in the Amazon jungle. climate was more temperate and the rivers drained a fertile area. their alphabetic letters were Phoenician and Greek, 3,000 to 4,000 years ago. the whole Amazon basin was a shallow inland sea that existed AS RECENTLY AS 1200 BC. People wall-papered their houses with thin sheets of beaten gold. The people had fine features. They used gold coinage and operated fleets. Their buildings were of shining white stone. Their cities boasted magnificent plazas, paved streets, ornamented temples, round-topped pyramids, mansions and fountains. They erected lighthouses and used lenses and reflectors, the elements of the telescope. And the cities were walled against the sea of the Maranon (the Amazon Sea). According to native traditions, they used a light source akin to our electric bulb.- South America was well known in antiquity. Before the jungle took over, it was resplendent with great cities. Many ancient traditions speak of an advanced culture which flourished thousands of years ago to the north and west of the Brazilian highlands. Books of wonderfully executed paintings and hieroglyphics have been found among naked Panos savages of the deep Peruvian forests near the gorge of the Ucayle, in the Amazon headwaters, in the eighteenth century. The Indians explained that the books, handed down, contained a history of events in the days of their ancestors. The pages of fine cotton, in external appearance resembling modern quarto leaves, were bound with a cover, glued together and fastened by agave threads. One of these ancient books was acquired by Fray Narcissus Gilbar and sent to Lima to be inspected by P. Cisneros, compiler of a periodical called El Mercurio Peruano.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:46 pm- ANCIENT MAPS Show Land Before & After Cataclysm http://beforeus.com- Maps show Antarctica firstly free of ice, secondly, the centre of Antarctica beginning to fill with ice (rivers and fjords being shown where today mile-thick glaciers flow) and thirdly, Antarctica after it had become mostly covered in ice. The U.S. Hydrographic Office declared one of these maps to be over 5,000 years old (Gray, Dead Men’s Secrets, pp.24-30). Similar ancient maps show Greenland before it was covered in ice; glacial actions in the Baltic countries; and northern Europe being covered by the Ice Age glaciation’s furthest advance. They were recording it as it occurred! The map illustrates this interesting fact: Before the final tearing apart of the continents, the Ice Age had begun.[It apparently took very advanced civilization to produce the ancient maps below. The ones handed down were likely copies, but they're nonetheless usually very accurate.]- From the various astronomical references in the Book of Job, different astronomers claim to be able to calculate the time in which Job lived, 2200-2100 BC (Miracle in Stone, pp.203-206). In his Ice Age book, Job recorded that “the waters [of the sea] harden like stone, and the surface of the deep [ocean] is frozen” (Job 38:29,30).- Partholan’s coming to Ireland (15th century BC) says Lakes and rivers ‘break out’.- The Zeno map, drawn in 1380 outlines the coasts of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Scotland, as well as the exact locations of islands. Greenland is shown free of glaciers. Unknown rivers and mountains have since been located in 1947-1949.- The Camerio map of 1502 was formed on a spherical grid.- The Zauche map of 1737 shows Antarctica free of ice. it is shown as two islands. Also shown are islands of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.- Another map drawn in 1531 by Orontius Fineus indicates that the centre of Antarctica was beginning to fill with ice. It shows rivers and fjords.- The Mercator chart of 1569 depicts only the Antarctic coast uncovered by glaciers.- Another, copied in 1559, the Hadji Ahmed map shows Antarctica and the Pacific coast of the United States with the land bridge that once existed between Siberia and Alaska.- The Andrea Benincasa map (1508) indicates that Northern Europe was being covered by the Ice Age glaciation’s furthest advance.- The Iehudi Ibn ben Zara map of 1487 shows remnants of glaciers in Britain And islands in the Mediterranean and Aegean Seas, now under water.- The Hamy King chart (1502) indicates northern Siberian rivers emptying into the Arctic Ocean now all under ice. It also shows glacial actions in the Baltic countries. What are today huge islands in Southeast Asia are shown on this map joined to land as they once were. The map even shows an ancient Suez Canal!- Ptolemy’s map of the North depicts a glacial sheet advancing across south-central Greenland; and at the same time it shows glaciers retreating from northern Germany and southern Sweden.- The Orontius Fineus map has Antarctica drawn too large, although mountains and other details are accurately presented.- The Gloreanus map (1510) shows not only the exact line of the Atlantic coast of America from Canada to Tierra del Fuego, but also the whole length of the Pacific coast.- The King Jaime World Chart (1502) shows the Sahara Desert as a fertile land with large lakes, rivers and cities.- The Dulcert map of 1339, tracing from Ireland to the Don River of Eastern Europe, shows great precision.- The Hydrographic Office of the Navy verified an ancient chart called the Piri Reis map, that goes back more than 5,000 years. It contains the following:1. The correct locations of South America, Africa, the Caribbean, Spanish, African and South American coasts and even isolated areas, like Cape Verde Island, the Azores, the Canary Islands, as well as topographies of the interiors.2. The coastline of Queen Maud Land in Antarctica with islands and bays now below the Antarctic ice sheet and a mountain range undiscovered until 1952.3. The Isle of Pines, Andros Island, San Salvador, Jamaica, the mouth of the Amazon and the island of Morajo.4. Greenland, shown as three islands [as it was before glaciation].5. Every mountain range in northern Canada and Alaska.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:13 pm__CONFERENCE... Online Conference Transcript... CC is Charles. GW is Webb. LK is Lloyd.__- 1. ADVANCED CIVILIZATIONLK: Are the ancient maps good evidence of former advanced civilization?- Do you think there was advanced civilization that produced the Bible? Or that produced the ancient maps and other traces?GW: Yes, I think the early Chaldean civilization was advanced, and produced maps, but I don't endorse every archaeological claim I've encountered about this.

--------------------Postby Pi sees » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:39 am__ATLANTISMy understanding is that "Khem" refers to the black soil left behind by the flooding of the Nile.- DATING OF ATLANTIS: Plato's proposed location for Atlantis (i.e. in the vicinity of the Azores) and time of its destruction (i.e. circa 9600 BCE) make complete sense in light of the geological evidence.- Plato's proposed location makes sense owing to the fact that Azores Plateau is located at a 3-way intersection of the North American, Eurasian and African tectonic plates. During the Ice Age, the huge ice sheets covering northern Europe and Canada would have pressed down on the glacier-covered areas of the Eurasian and North American plates respectively; this pressure would have caused isostatic rebound in the non-covered parts of those plates, both across the plates and by channeling magma pressure down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge toward the aforementioned 3-way plate intersection. At the same time, the African plate was (and still is) pushing northwards into the Eurasian plate. The combined effects of these geological pressures would have been sufficient to raise a highly fertile but unstable landmass of a size comparable to modern-day Turkey (as per Plato's description), primarily composed of the Azores Plateau.- The African plate was actually being forced to push into the Eurasian plate in a twisting north-eastward fashion, because the Azores Plateau was acting as an obstacle to the northwestern part of the plate; this "twisting" meant that the northwestern part of the African plate eventually started to pull away from the Eurasian plate, resulting in a loss of geological pressure critical to keeping a large Atlantic island above sea level.When the European and North American ice-sheets started to melt towards the end of the Pleistocene, the previously glaciated areas of those continents started to undergo isostatic rebound, resulting in a corresponding subsidence of the previously unglaciated parts of their respective plates as well as a loss in pressure being channeled down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge towards the Azores Plateau. In other words, Atlantis was hit with a geological triple-whammy (isostatic rebound, loss of channeled pressure down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, and the twisting movement of Africa) about 12,000 years ago, causing the large island to sink beneath the ocean surface in a geological instant. Over the next 10+ millenia the former island continued to subside more gradually (but still very quickly in geological terms) to its present level, hence Plato's reference - based on much older accounts - to a "shallow muddy shoal" rendering the Atlantic Ocean "impassable" in the general area where Atlantis had formerly stood.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:19 pm__POST-FLOOD RESETTLEMENTAfter the Cataclysm http://beforeus.com-NOAH'S ARK.The Great Pyramid’s latitude (30 degrees 00 minutes north) is precisely an “ark’s length and height” south of the remains of Noah’s Ark (39 degrees 26 minutes north) in Turkey (Persian Triangle Mystery).-[ANCIENT] GLOBAL EXPLORATION AND SETTLEMENTSurviving today are portions of ancient world maps drawn by surveying parties before, during and after the Ice Age (See Appendix 2). At least two - the Piri Reis and Reinal - were based on a circular projection with the focal point in Egypt.(a) the Great Flood (2345 to 2344 BC),(b) the founding of Egypt (2250 to 2188 BC) and(c) the Great Pyramid (2144 BC)-EGYPT. “INCH” AND “CUBIT” LINK. In Egypt, the royal cubit of 20.6 inches is well known. The British inch is derived from the pyramid inch. One pyramid inch equals 1.0011 British inches, one 500-millionth part of the earth’s polar axis. The royal Egyptian cubit and the inch have a relationship called the Golden Ratio.-A wreck in Turkey, believed to be the Ark, has seven examples of this .618 ratio (Jonathan Gray, The Ark Conspiracy, Chapter . The pre-Flood cubit used in the Ark was taken to Egypt to become the royal Egyptian cubit. It was Mizraim, Noah’s grandson, who founded Egypt.-The Great Pyramid accurately stands in the centre of the land surface of the earth as it NOW exists and marks both the longitude and latitude at which there is more land and less sea than at any other coordinates on earth.-WHY WERE THE PYRAMID’S BUILDERS FORGOTTEN?1. THE BUILDERS WERE NOT EGYPTIAN. 2. HISTORICAL ACCURACY WAS NOT A PRIORITY. 3. AMID ENVIRONMENTAL TRAUMA, MUCH CULTURE WAS FORGOTTEN. There was a sudden, dramatic drop in the human life span, as recorded by the ancient Chinese and the Hebrews (See The Corpse Came Back, chapter 18). Much earlier knowledge was quickly lost. The few Flood survivors, although bringing with them knowledge from the pre-Flood world, were too few in number to put most of it to practical use immediately. Population growth was rapid, so Two hundred years was all it needed [to re-establish civilization].-BABYLON. Sumerian tradition preserved two lists of “kings” who reigned before the Flood. One contained eight names, as does the family tree of Cain, [and] the other ten names, as does the family tree of Genesis 5. After Alexander the Great had defeated Darius in 331 BC, he journeyed to Babylon and his scholars learned about the 1903 years of astronomical observations from the Chaldeans of Babylon. That placed the founding of Babylon at 2234 BC (Martin Anstey, The Romance of Bible Chronology. 1913, p.92). This is uncannily close to the biblical date for the Tower of Babel (c. 2244 BC).

=========================Postby Lloyd » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:52 am__HUMAN MIGRATIONWhen I looked at that map, it looked to me like the origin could have been Asia Minor as much as Africa. There are arrows pointing in that direction, Asia Minor to Africa, as well as Asia Minor to everywhere else. Besides, Egypt is in Africa and it's at least as old as Sumer, I've read. Both places seem to be origins.--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:41 pmIndus Valley civilisation is as old as Egypt and Sumer.Most of the peoples who invaded/entered the Middle East seem to have originated somewhere in Eurasia. Where they hit the Middle East depended on which way they moved around the Caspian and/or the Black Sea. The various mountain ranges extending west from Iran to the Aegean play a big part too - only so many places they can be crossed.--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:59 amThe so-called 'dark age' is the result of the refusal by academics to ever acknowledge the seafaring civilisation of the Canaanites/Phoenicians.The ancient world during 1700-722 BC was very well-connected through extensive sea trade. The shipping lanes connected the Baltic, British Isles, Africa and India with the Mediterranean. This vibrant trade between nations, languages and tribes was accomplished mainly by the Canaanites/Phoenicians--who also developed the alphabet and the first books. This is the world of the Old Testament. It was a highly interconnected world. For example, there are faience beads and also necklaces which are of the Mycenaean style in Wessex burial sites showing that trade was already developed in the north in 1450 BC. Tyre and Sidon were great seafaring cities and are some of the most mentioned people in the Old Testament.The enormous blind-spot exhibited towards the Phoenicians is merely academic tradition.That reminds me, I was delighted by Lloyd's mention of the possibility of Canaanite trade in the New World.--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:35 pmClaude Schaeffer...archaeologist whose excavation of the ancient city of Ugarit at Ras Shamra Syria, disclosed a succession of culture from about 1195 BC back to the 6th and 7th millenia BC....He found that Ugarit, a coastal city and port in ancient times, was quite cosmopolitan; in various periods it showed evidence of cultural influence from Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Hittite and Mediterannean civilizations.The tablets included texts of literary works of considerable sophistication and originality that also helped to establish the Canaanite origin of the stories of the Patriarchs in the Bible.--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:25 pmBecause of Schaeffer's work in more widely distributed areas, he was able to see common stratigraphy between the locations.The significance of this development for accurate dating is astonishing to think about.First, this may throw an enormous spanner in the academic dating traditions, who -- due to their own biases -- relate all dates to Classical Greek and Egyptian civilizations. That in itself is an enormous problem because if they have Greek and Egyptian dates wrong, the entire system falls.Next, the disasters which befell these ancient cities left layers in the record which can be harmonized over wide areas. With today's electron microscope technologies, depositions can be identified with confidence, because as we know every volcano or high-temperature event leaves its own fingerprint, which is unlike that of any other volcano or high-temperature event.And Claude Schaeffer was firm in his conviction: he had identified a precise year for the 1195 BC destruction of Ugarit.

__SABOTAGE- “SCHOLARS” SABOTAGE ANCIENT DOCUMENTS: The Turin Papyrus was prepared during the late 18th Dynasty of the Pharaohs and included lists of all the kings of every dynasty of ancient Egypt through to the 18th Dynasty. This papyrus was found during a temple excavation in the 19th century. The King of Sardinia carefully preserved it and entrusted it to some “scholars” at Turin for translation. The “scholars” destroyed or hid most of it, apparently because it proved the “LONG dynastic” history of Egypt to be UNTRUE!-The Palermo Stone contained a similar list. “unapproved researchers” can have access to only a few fragments. It is obvious that the stone was broken recently.

--------------------Postby Roshi » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:00 am__ANCIENT ALIENSConclusion: there existed and "antedeluvian" civilization. This civilization was responsible for the pyramids and all other strange ruins. It was lead by red haired "gods" - extraterestrials. People all over the world tried to imitate them by elongating the skulls of children. Look at the representation of ancient pharaohs and their long heads. This civilization was global. Check the stories about **** found in Egyptian mummies, and the red hair of Ramses:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_IIMicroscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair was originally red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[68] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the god Seth, the slayer of OsirisAlso see the stories about "sons of god" that came to earth and married human women, who then gave birth to "giants".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_%28mythology%29Genesis 6:4-5 tells of the Nephilim before and after the Flood. According to Genesis 7:23, the Nephilim were destroyed in the Flood, but Nephilim are reported after the Flood

--------------------Postby GaryN » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:18 pm__BABELThe Great Mystery raised the sun to its present height and, with an earthquake, destroyed the tower that Montezuma was building into the heavens, in the process changing languages so that people could no longer understand animals or other tribes.That's interesting, the story of Babel. Now how did that find its way to Arizona, and when?

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:56 pm__NOAH MYTH- there's a good chance that Noah and the ark and the animals on it may have been an apparition in the sky and that the "fountains of the great deep" referred to the sky too, since most of the ancients seem to have referred to the sky as the "great deep", also as the ocean. ...

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:13 pm__FLOOD MYTHSThe chart I posted above is evidence of a flood that occurred at the same time in most of the world, since most of those myths have important elements in common: major flooding and people and sometimes animals being saved in a large vessel.- Some cultures may have gotten their flood myths from other cultures. And it seems possible that there were vessels in several parts of the world where people and animals were saved from drowning. It's also possible that the vessel containing people and animals was an apparition in the sky as sometimes discussed among Saturn theorists. Gordon is the one who suggested that nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata worldwide were deposited all at once during the Great Flood, and that suggests that where there is no sedimentary rock on continents, there was possibly no major flooding, which means many people and animals may have survived in those locations, which are shown in the map below in the areas of Precambrian surface rock.Great Flood Depositshttp://www.geo.msu.edu/geogmich/images/precambrian_rocks_and_mobile_belts.JPGImage- I think there's a reasonable amount of consensus among Saturn theorists. They seem to agree that the polar planetary conjunction lasted quite a while, then the configuration destabilized and the planets and small objects in the sky appeared to behave chaotically. There were upheavals on Earth and a great flood about 4,500 years ago. Unusual electrical effects were seen. There was also rapid continental drift. An Ice Age followed. The planets soon found their orbital paths around the Sun; the Moon appeared in the sky and the new order prevailed. And civilization rebuilt in Egypt and Sumer firstly.- Since nearly all the sedimentary strata were deposited by the flood and the fossils formed primarily at that time, the map above shows that there were several places around the world where there was little if any flooding and that's where people, animals and some plants survived best. Due to the fall of many meteors, the world's forests and grasslands caught fire, which led to coal deposits within the sedimentary areas. As Mike Fischer explains at http://newgeology.us , it makes more sense that continental drift didn't occur until a few hundred years after the Great Flood. And the movement of the northern continents toward the north pole is what froze the animals in the north. Velikovsky had thought that the Earth's axis had shifted, causing Alaska and Siberia to come close to the Arctic Circle, but rapid continental drift explains things much better than does a pole shift.

====================postby Lloyd » Tue May 31, 2016 9:59 am__GREAT FLOOD MYTHS- THOTH CLUES TO THE GREAT FLOOD Part 1- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1998.08.txt- A BRIEF ORIENTATION David Talbott... WHY SHOULD WE CARE ABOUT MYTH?... Myth is, I believe, a window to early human history, a more intense period of history than we've realized. The myths have their roots in a time of celestial catastrophe, and more often than not the appearance of confusion results from viewing myth as something other than what it is. In the course of cultural evolution and scientific advance, we left behind the fabled "long ago," whose images seemed wholly out of touch with our own world. Yet my personal conviction is that ancient myth, when seen as a symbolic record of earth-shaking events in the sky, will permanently change man's view of his celestial environment.- BUT YOUR CONCLUSIONS ARE NOT THOSE OF OTHERS WHO DEVOTED LIFETIMES TO THE STUDY OF MYTH.... Many common themes run through the folklore of diverse cultures. From ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia to the Americas, from India to China, Scandinavia, Africa, and the Pacific Islands, one finds surprisingly similar accounts: celestial temples and cities, a lost paradise or "Garden of Eden," a cosmic mountain, a flaming serpent or dragon in the sky -- and surprisingly similar stories of global calamity ranging from wars of the gods, to a great flood or a devastating rain of fire and gravel. If we'll look at these collective memories carefully, it will change our understanding of the past. Many of the myths concern planets, but the accounts make no sense to us in terms of the movement of these remote bodies today. Why did the planets, these little pinpricks of light, play such a powerful role in the mythical "age of the gods"? Along with others working in this field, I've come to interpret the myths and drawings and ritual practices from a new vantage point. Here is the conclusion in a nutshell: A few thousand years ago, the sky did not look anything like it appears today! Planets hung as gigantic, sometimes terrifying bodies above the ancient stargazers. In periods of stability this involved incredible beauty, but there were also periods of mind-altering catastrophe -- the most traumatic experiences in human history.- WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE FOR THIS?- The primary evidence comes from ancient pictures and chronicles, submitted to extensive cross-referencing. By comparing accounts from around the world, one can begin to reconstruct the way the sky looked in ancient times. Is it possible that the myths and pictographs recorded, in a language unique to the starworshippers, large-scale events we've forgotten? By keeping that possibility firmly in mind, the researcher will begin to identify crucial themes of myth -- themes found on every continent, but pointing to an alien sky. As one begins to see the past differently, recent space age discoveries will take on a new significance. Our probes of other planets, such as the Mariner explorations of Mars, the Voyager missions to Jupiter and Saturn, and more recently the Magellan mapping of Venus, the Galileo probe of Jupiter, and the Mars Surveyor have produced many stunning images of the planets and their moons, together with undeniable evidence of large-scale catastrophe within the planetary system. Taken as a whole, these stark profiles of our neighbors challenge traditional theories claiming slow and uneventful planetary evolution. Moreover, a new possibility arises from a reconsideration of the historical material: the possibility that at least some of the horrendous scars on our planetary neighbors resulted from events witnessed by man not all that long ago.- WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE STATEMENT THAT THE PLANETS APPEARED AS "GIGANTIC BODIES IN THE SKY"?- At the core of the argument is the idea that several planets were once joined in a spectacular gathering of planets, together with gases and dust, smaller moons and cosmic debris. For prehistoric man -- who witnessed all of this -- the effect was a massive celestial display in the northern sky. I've called this celestial assembly "the polar configuration" because in its stable phases it was centered on the north celestial pole. In the beginning, the primary form was the planet Saturn, stationary but immense in the sky. Numerous lines of evidence suggest that Saturn once towered over man and inspired the most dramatic leaps in human imagination the world has ever known. Our work puts a new emphasis on the unusual celestial events reflected in the myths. When you first dive into world mythology, all of your prior training will tell you to dismiss the myth-makers as fabricators or victims of hallucination. But there's another way to see the myths. Ancient man experienced extraordinary events, then strove to remember and to reenact them in every way possible. The result was not only a global mythology, but entirely new forms of human expression. And the whole range of expressions -- sacrifices to the gods, wars of conquest, monumental construction, pictographic representations, and endless celebrations of the lost age of the gods -- left us a massive reservoir of evidence. These highly novel expressions are, in fact, the distinguishing characteristics of the first civilizations.- BUT WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE THE SKY HAS CHANGED SO DRASTICALLY?- The best I can ask for is a willingness to consider an argument. I could show you, for example, that certain celestial images preoccupied ancient man to the point of an obsession. A great cosmic wheel in the sky. The pyramid of the sun. The eye of heaven. Also the ship of heaven, a spiraling serpent, the raging goddess, and four luminous "winds" of the sky. The problem for conventional perspectives is that these images are far, far removed from anything we see in the heavens today. But that is only the beginning of the theoretical challenge. As soon as you realize that far-flung cultures, though employing different symbols, tell a unified story, all of the previous "explanations" of myth collapse. Of course the point will not be proven in a few sentences, and not in a few pages. But the more you learn on this subject, the more compelling the collective memory becomes.- SO YOU ARE CHALLENGING THE IDEA THAT THINGS HAVE NOT REALLY CHANGED THAT MUCH WITHIN THE SOLAR SYSTEM.- Yes, we are challenging an intellectual system as a whole. What is at stake here are the pillars of the modern world view. How could it be that the sky has completely changed in a few thousand years? Our textbooks do not talk about such a thing. When instructing us on the history of the solar system, the evolution of our planet, the birth of man, the origins of civilization, no one speaks of an unstable solar system, of interplanetary upheaval, or of wholesale changes in the celestial order. When the popular astronomer Carl Sagan presented his impressive exposition on the nature of things, called Cosmos, he didn't ask if we may have misunderstood our past. Rather, Sagan's expressed view -- the official view of science for many years -- fits comfortably within the textbooks on astronomy, geology, biology, anthropology, and ancient history. When we launched the U.S. Space program in the late 50s, then devoted billions of dollars to exploring neighboring planets, no one thought to ask if the planets might have followed different courses in earlier times, whether recent disturbances of the planetary system might have left their tell-tale marks on these remote bodies. So when our cameras and measuring devices reached the planets Mars and Venus, and the Voyager probes provided spectacular glimpses of Jupiter and Saturn -- well, we were left with a hundred enigmas and unanswered questions. And yes, there's a certain irony to this. The prevailing view of myth proclaims that, through science, man escaped the bonds of superstition and make believe. But now, in the twentieth century -- the age of science and reason -- it is myth and symbol that will provide the lost key to the past, the key to a new understanding of the solar system and of human origins. At the heart of this claim is a bedrock principle: the myth-making age arose from the human urge to REMEMBER [for future generations, because the sky had changed]; hence, the patterns of myth are the patterns of human memory. And if it can be rigorously demonstrated from cross-cultural comparison that numerous DIFFERENT words and symbols and mythical themes actually point to the SAME HIGHLY UNUSUAL EVENTS, then the patterns of memory will carry more weight than science has ever considered.- HOW DO YOU DISTINGUISH THESE IDEAS ABOUT "PLANETARY" MYTH FROM THE IDEAS OF OTHER RESEARCHERS SUCH AS JOSEPH CAMPBELL, CARL JUNG AND MIRCEA ELIADE?- Each of these impressive scholars came to discern certain unified layers of myth, layers our traditional cynicism about myth never anticipated. Perhaps the greatest contribution of these pioneers is their acknowledgment that the common view -- seeing myth as random absurdity -- will not suffice to explain the subject. I think the late Joseph Campbell has done the most to awaken popular interest in myth, and he is one of my own favorites too. Following a comparative approach, Campbell brought to light quite a number of global themes. He noted, for example, the myths of the central sun, the world mountain, the flowering of creation through sacrifice, the birth of the hero, the terrible goddess, and so on. Any one of these themes, when explored in its full context, could open the door to incredible discovery. But Campbell, like so many others, stopped short of asking the most important question of all: if the celestial references of the myths are absent today, is it possible that they were present in a former time?- WHAT IS THE REAL MESSAGE OF MYTH, IN YOUR VIEW?- The mythmakers are telling us we've forgotten the very thing they regarded as most vital -- in fact, the source of all meaning to the first starworshippers. We've forgotten the age of the gods. We've assumed that as long as man has journeyed on our planet the world looked and behaved almost exactly as it does today. And that is the fundamental error of modern perception. The answer to that error is to re-envision the past. With the help of the ancient chroniclers, its time to bring the forgotten dramas -- both the beauty, and the nightmare scenarios -- into the light of day.

====================postby Lloyd » Tue May 31, 2016 10:06 am__GREAT FLOOD MYTHS- THOTH CLUES TO THE GREAT FLOOD Part 3- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1999.08.txtSATURN CONFIGURATION DISCUSSION... CARDONA: ... If the Saturnian system was NOT captured by the Sun, the advent of day and night would have commenced at the clearing of the Saturnian nebular cloud within which the Saturnian system was enshrouded. In any case, whether the Saturnian system was, or was not, captured by the Sun, the Saturnian nebular, or placental, cloud would still have shielded the Sun from view until after Saturn's flare-up which, among other things, blew the placental cloud out of existence.... ROBERT PREVIOUSLY: At what point does massive flooding come into the scenario? Do you believe that great quantities of water fell from the sky and/or world pillar in conjunction with the break-up?- CARDONA: >From the world pillar during the break-up, definitely ... [over not] even a century.- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv01.txt- THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY: Part III- Excerpts from Dwardu Cardona's SIS Silver Jubilee Paper... CARDONA: THE WHIRLING COLUMN- Once again, I cannot here present the entire string of evidential sources which attest to the whirling motion of the cosmic pillar. Instead I will merely present the opinion of four authorities on the subject. DC Santillana and von Dechend are two of many who came to the conclusion that the [visible Earth's] axis did twist and turn -- although they seemed somewhat unsure of whether it did so slowly or rapidly -- even if to them the axis was anything but an actual physical entity. So, incidentally, did Elmer Suhr when he speaks of the 'whirling cosmic column' and 'the whirling column of the cosmos.' In fact, Suhr goes on to stress: 'It is especially important to think of the cosmic column not as a static post but as a constantly whirling crucible...' Talbott, of course, also recognized this fact when he wrote that 'the cosmic mountain in many creation epics is presented as a churning, serpentine column rising along the world axis...' t is more than obvious from descriptions of the Saturnian axis, as well as prehistoric Petroglyphs, that the polar column was a visible entity rather than a deduced abstraction. This was so much so that, in some cases, the axis was even pictured as a ladder reaching to the Saturnian sun. ... It is ... this bolus flow that would have given the planetary tornado, or Rankine vortex, its serpentine quality.... THE WATERY VORTEX- AMY: Cardona proposes, if the polar column were actually a colossal tornado, that the Saturn theory demands that this, too, should be part of the mytho-historical record. ... [T]he tornado would have sucked large amounts of waters from the Earth and ancient man should have been aware of this, if not from observing the column itself, then at least from observing what happened when the column was severed.- CARDONA: [A]mong the Australian Aborigines, the great python is the most impressive representative of the polar column. It is therefore significant that this python is not only believed to tower up to the level of the clouds, but that he also 'brings about rain and flood.' The Efe pygmies of the Ituri forest tell of a deluge of water which gushed forth as a mighty river when their version of the Cosmic Tree, which was the polar column, was felled. Similarly, the Arawak Indians of the [Guianas] tell of a wondrous tree which Sigu cut down. From its stump, water gushed out in such quantity as to cause a deluge. This tale is also found among the traditions of the Cuna, who tell of their mischief-maker, the Tapir, chopping down the Saltwater Tree from which salt water gushed out to form the oceans of the world. Thus, Velikovsky was correct when he surmised that the water of the Deluge would have been salty, but not, as he believed, because the salt, or at least its chlorine content, originated from Saturn. The water was salty because it came from the same oceanic water the vortex had sucked up in the first place.... THE FLOOD FROM THE NORTH- AMY: Cardona moves on to the next demand of the Saturn Theory. If the Deluge was [partly] the result of the collapse of a colossal tornado situated in the north, then the mytho-historical record must also contain this information. And it does. Among others, three American Indian tribes, the Wintus, the Wichita, and the Pawnee, tell different legends of the flood, but in each case the deluge arrives from the north.- CARDONA: But what of the hard sciences? Is the evidence there? Once again, I can only mention a few items here, but that an enormous flood had once swept down from the north to scour the land surface of North America has been suggested by J. Harlan Bretz. So, similarly, with C. Warren Hunt who speaks of evidence pointing to a flood from the north, excavating the land as it went before it emptied into Lake Bonneville. That Lake Bonneville itself also burst its bounds to cause a secondary flood has been documented by Robert Jarred and Harold Malde. What is of additional interest here is that the area once covered by this lake constitutes a vast salt deposit 100 square miles [= ten miles square] in extent. Similar signs of a vast scouring flood from the north have also been discovered in Siberia. ... [T]his flood was [not] due to the catastrophic melting of the northern ice cap at the end of the Ice Age [since, at that] time, the northern ice cap had not yet been formed.... THE CHURNING OF THE OCEAN... [T]he Indic myth from the Mahabharata and the Bhagavata Purana [says]: In an effort to produce ... divine nectar, both gods and demons used Mount Mandara as a churning stick. Winding the serpent Vasuki, [or] Ananta, around Mount Mandara, ... depicted not in the form of a mountain, but in that of a pillar ... the gods (at one end) and the demons (at the other) grasped hold of Vasuki by the head and tail and, pulling him back and forth, were able to rotate Mount Mandara fast enough to whisk the sea into an ocean of milk from which amrita was produced. ... [T]hus ... the mythic World Mountain and the Axis Mundi were one and the same. In fact, it has long been known to Indologists that Mount Mandara stood for the axis of the world. ... In Vasuki we recognize the bolus flow wrapped around the central vortex -- and here it is interesting to note that this entity was 'associated with the north,' thus locating the entire action in that locality. Finally, in the divinities' churning by pulling at the coiled Vasuki this way and that way, an echo is retained of the clockwise/counterclockwise rotation of the bolus flow as described by Jueneman.... The elements contained in the myth of the churning of the ocean must not be thought of as uniquely Hindu in origin. In the Hindu myth, for instance, we see that Mandara was placed on the back of a tortoise. In Chinese mythology, it is Shang-ti who is depicted as standing on the celestial tortoise, while the serpent was said to have encircled the tortoise. Shang-ti's title was The Holy and Propitious Prince of the North Pole, who is usually represented as surrounded by a halo, both of which have special meaning to this study. It is also noteworthy that the symbolism of the tortoise and serpent goes at least as far back as the Han dynasty and was used as an emblem for the northern region of the world. More than that, as Lord of the Centre, Shang-ti was also revered as Huang-ti, who is perhaps better known as the Yellow Lord or Yellow Emperor. The Yellow Emperor has long been acknowledged to be an avatar of Saturn. And in the Japanese Kojiki we learn of the Heavenly Jeweled Spear which joined heaven to Earth and which acted as the churning stick responsible for the surfacing of the mythical ... island of Onogoro [in the sky].

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:13 am__GREAT FLOOD PROTECTION- It's certainly possible that there are or were physical ETs who planted us on the Earth and saved enough living things in times of cataclysms to repopulate the planet afterwards. But I'm inclined more to think that it's angels who do those things. There seems to be more evidence that angels or spirits exist than that ETs exist. The evidence of UFOs etc could actually be evidence of angels, as well as mankind's own recent inventions to some extent. Where the Bible speaks about God, it seems to mean angels of God. For example, the beings who visited Abraham before the destruction of Sodom and Gemorah were referred to as Lord, men and angels. The story of Moses and the burning bush where God spoke to him is repeated in the Book of Acts, I think, and there it's stated, I think by Stephen, that it was an angel who spoke to Moses. So I think the Bible only refers to the doings of angels, not really to those of "God". If I were an advanced being, I think I'd certainly prefer to have an immortal spirit body, than a mortal physical one, if I could manage it. I do believe in holistic, infinitely caring consciousness by the way.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:17 pm__AREAS LACKING SEDIMENTARY ROCKGordon, do you think sedimentary rock strata locations indicate where the Great Flood occurred? And do you think where there are no sedimentary rock strata, the Flood did not occur? Here's a map of Precambrian strata locations in a light pinkish color, while sedimentary locations are light greenish:http://higheredbcs.wiley.com/legacy/college/levin/0471697435/chap_tut/images/nw0167-nn.jpgThe site is: http://higheredbcs.wiley.com/legacy/college/levin/0471697435/chap_tut/chaps/chapter08-07.htmlThe main locations where Flood deposits are minimal or none are in much of eastern Canada & Greenland, Antarctica, eastern South America, southwestern Africa and other spotted locations in Eurasia & Australia.If the Flood was not significant in those areas, then organisms could have probably survived there without an ark.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:40 pm__UNFLOODED LANDSI say that the frequently fossiliferous Cambrian and "above" sequences were deposited during the flood, in at least three major stages marked by the PreCambrian/Cambrian ["explosion"], PT [Permian/Triassic extinctions] and KT [Cretaceous/Tertiary extinctions] stratigraphic boundaries found globally. Add the Pliocene/Pleistocene groupings as a 4th major ending event [the Ice Epoch].No, I would not say that there was no major flooding where there are no sedimentary rocks, nor that possibly living things survived on land not flooded. I do hold that some sea creatures survived the flood, as there is no indication in the biblical record of Noah being commissioned to save them; and in geology we find that fossilized sea creatures are found generally buried in strata beneath the fossils of land creatures -- this "first burial" trend would be expected since their habitats are "lower" than those of the land creatures. Standard model "shallow sea" explanations are to me indicators of creatures washed over onto and buried on the ancient continental shelves or lowland areas, which could be nearly anywhere on the ancient supercontinent before the formation of the boundary [brake] mountain ranges.The Precambrian rock areas may have not been flooded or were washed clean as they were being uplifted toward the end of the flood into the exposed areas they now are found. There are no indicators from fossil evidence or otherwise that these "shield" regions were areas where anything survived the cataclysm; however the lack of fossils and the metamorphic/intrusive morphologies of Precambrian sequences in general do place them as being formed before the deluge, possibly primordial, or as vestiges of the original uplift of the continents above the primordial sea.Other areas where there are no [exposed] sedimentary sequences are regions of "recent" [last stages of flood and post-flood] volcanism, so these would be an "afterthought" of the cataclysm, although the causation of these later events was definitely put in place by the flood apparati. Hence volcanic arcs are found adjacent/parallel to boundary ranges and trenches, etc. and/or other stressed areas of the continents.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:39 pm__UNFLOODED BEDROCKSince the Great Flood likely deposited nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata, why did it not deposit anything in the numerous shield regions? Since Noah's ark is likely to have referred to the Saturn Configuration, the actual survival of humans and animals would be likely due to one or two of two possibilities:1. the Flood did not cover the entire surface of the Earth (some or all of the shield regions);2. humans in many locations independently took to boats and ships for the duration of the Flood and animals lived on some of the ships and/or on floating mats of logs and debris._ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:03 amThe shield regions are Pre-Cambrian exposures that do show some large-scale erosive/depositional action, eg. drumlins on the Canadian shield in Ontario; just because there are no major stratigraphic sequences doesn't mean they were untouched by flood tides or currents.

--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:16 am__GC CHRONOLOGY... My views? Multiple catastrophes with the last major one approx 12,000 years ago. The last of the lesser approx 1200BCE. I'm more interested in the human side of things rather than the Earth/science side.- ... If there was a 'global' flood then it would have been 12000 ya. It can't have been either the MBA or LBA collapses as there were still several peoples, eg, Egyptians, Indians etc who didn't completely collapse. ...--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:37 am... (As I see it) Venus and Mars were definitely involved in the LBA collapse as were Jupiter and the Sun. Homer makes this clear. Whether Venus was involved in any of the previous incidents is hard to say partly because it is difficult to know in which time period a story takes place.--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:44 pm... Nanodiamond-Rich Layer across Three Continents Consistent with Major Cosmic Impact at 12,800 Cal BP http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/677046

__WETTER CLIMATE- GLOBAL CLIMATE WETTER FOR CENTURIES AFTER THE FLOODIn the Middle East prior to 1000 BC large forest trees covered especially the higher elevations. Israel and Jordan supported a wild animal population not unlike that of North Africa. Similar evidence exists for North and South America, Asia and Australia (Jonathan Gray, The Corpse Came Back, chapter 20). And the transition from ice age to the present desert environment took place between 2250 to 2000 BC. (See Appendix 1.)

__ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS DURING GREAT FLOOD- Evidence of Civilization Destroyed by Global CataclysmCITY 6,000 FEET UNDER THE SEA-In 1965 a research vessel, "Anton Brunn", was investigating the Nazca Trench, off Peru. At a depth of 6,000 feet a photograph revealed huge upright pillars and walls, some of which seemed to have writing on them. In other nearby locations, apparently artificially shaped stones lay on their sides, as though they had toppled over.- ARTIFACTS UNCOVERED-1-In Western Australia in 1975, water drillers near Perth struck a concrete wall 30 feet below the surface.-2-At Aix-en-Provence, France, from 1786 to 1788, coins, stumps of columns and other worked stones, were discovered 50 feet down, below eleven beds of compact limestone.-3-At Blue Lick Springs, Kentucky, underground, below the remains of a prehistoric mastodon, was discovered a pavement of cut-stone tiles.-4-In the autumn of 1868, in a strip of coal mine near Hammondsville, Ohio, at 100 feet below ground was found a large, smooth, slate wall covered with inscriptions similar to hieroglyphics, in lines about three inches apart. Crowds flocked to see, but the slate soon crumbled and the writing was destroyed.-5-In November 1829, in a quarry twelve miles northwest of Philadelphia, at a depth of 69-70 feet below ground, a block of marble was found, which bore an indentation containing the raised alphabet characters 'I' and 'U'. Two years later the discovery appeared in an illustration in the American Journal of Science, vol.19, p.361.-6-In Omaha, Nebraska, about 130 feet underground, coalminers found a carved slab of rock with diamond shapes. In the centre of each diamond was an engraving of a human face (Omaha Daily News, 1897).-7-In 1928 in coal mine No. 5, near Heavener, Oklahoma, at a depth of two miles, miners encountered a wall composed of 12 inch cube concrete blocks polished so that all six sides acted as mirrors. About 100 to 150 yards further down the shaft, the same wall or one very similar was uncovered. That part of the mine was then filled up.-8-Coal was NOT laid down 300 million years ago, but very recently, after civilized man.-9-Huge stone cities, very ancient, with paved streets and tall pyramids choked with forest, have been sighted in the Amazon jungle. climate was more temperate and the rivers drained a fertile area. their alphabetic letters were Phoenician and Greek, 3,000 to 4,000 years ago. the whole Amazon basin was a shallow inland sea that existed AS RECENTLY AS 1200 BC. People wall-papered their houses with thin sheets of beaten gold. The people had fine features. They used gold coinage and operated fleets. Their buildings were of shining white stone. Their cities boasted magnificent plazas, paved streets, ornamented temples, round-topped pyramids, mansions and fountains. They erected lighthouses and used lenses and reflectors, the elements of the telescope. And the cities were walled against the sea of the Maranon (the Amazon Sea). According to native traditions, they used a light source akin to our electric bulb.- South America was well known in antiquity. Before the jungle took over, it was resplendent with great cities. Many ancient traditions speak of an advanced culture which flourished thousands of years ago to the north and west of the Brazilian highlands. Books of wonderfully executed paintings and hieroglyphics have been found among naked Panos savages of the deep Peruvian forests near the gorge of the Ucayle, in the Amazon hea