But both of them had to have known that Kirkland was a dead man walking. Why not tell Jane everything right then?

Totally agree. They know red John has minions in law enforcement, and they've killed witnesses/prisioners before (one inside the CBI building,) and they really thought they'd get a chance to talk later?

I don't think that was an option, since Kirkland surely realized the driver was complicit as well.

But running was stupid. Kirkland should have come to the edge of the van, got Reede to look away for a second (maybe by looking intently behind Reede), and then jumped on Reede and maybe used the chain as a weapon. Then get Reede's gun and shoot the driver. Probably worse than a 50/50 chance at surviving, but that is better than a near 100% chance of dying if he runs.

So if the FBI agent is part of the Tyger conspiracy, then the sheriff and Bertram probably are as well (based on that meeting the 3 of them were having in Bertram's office?), and probably none of them are Red John (if any of them were, I would think the body language of the other 2 in the meeting would have been completely different). So it's either Reed or Styles.

The other members of the conspiracy might not necessarily know who RJ is, so I'm not sure what you are getting at with body language.

Last season, before the seven were revealed, I thought someone high up from Visualize was the most likely suspect, since RJ has such fanatical devotion with many of his minions, as well as apparent connections with politicians and law enforcement. But I did not think it was Stiles himself. It could still be Ray Haffner, who is a member of Visualize. But RJ is also heavily invested in Tyger, Tyger, and I don't recall seeing any evidence that Haffner is in the Tyger conspiracy. Maybe it is Haffner working together with one or more of the Tyger conspiracy people.

But this Tyger conspiracy is interesting, since it provides the kind of connections and information that would help RJ do what he does. Although it does not easily explain the fanatical devotion of his minions. Reede did say something about it being bigger than Kirkland knew, so maybe there is something else that could explain that.

Now that we know that Kirkland got a fake list, I am at a loss how to explain RJ knowing the seven suspects. I suppose some minion could still have been carefully watching Jane's room before and after Kirkland stole the fake list (hidden camera?). There was probably enough information in that room, over the many weeks Jane was working there, to deduce the suspect list, but RJ or minions would have to have gone through days and days of footage to figure it out. And Jane should have found a hidden camera, as obsessive as he is. So I'm baffled.

I don't think that was an option, since Kirkland surely realized the driver was complicit as well.

But running was stupid. Kirkland should have come to the edge of the van, got Reede to look away for a second (maybe by looking intently behind Reede), and then jumped on Reede and maybe used the chain as a weapon. Then get Reede's gun and shoot the driver. Probably worse than a 50/50 chance at surviving, but that is better than a near 100% chance of dying if he runs.

He either could've have fought like you said, or forced the FBI agent to shoot him in the van therefore making it harder to say that he was shot while escaping.

I don't see why the Homeland agent, Kirkland?, would take the first body and drive it all the way back to wherever he dumped it. Since he was in the woods he would have dumped it there. The story should have started with several people previously prosecuted? apprehended? by CBI have disappeared.

I read it the same exact way, and mentioned it to my wife, but I was confused, since I thought that this was the last season.

There has been no hint of that. (Season structure spoilers)

Spoiler:

The Red John story will wrap up in the next very few episodes, and then the show will take off in a somewhat new direction, with some cast changes. They're clearly still in it for the long haul, since they're rebooting/reorganizing/restructuring/re-whatevering instead of just dragging Red John out to the season's end.

The Red John story will wrap up in the next very few episodes, and then the show will take off in a somewhat new direction, with some cast changes. They're clearly still in it for the long haul, since they're rebooting/reorganizing/restructuring/re-whatevering instead of just dragging Red John out to the season's end.

I also read somewhere that this was the last season. And as far as I'm concerned after last episode they need to just end the show. All this Tiger, Tiger crap just don't make sense. The wife and I just looked at each other after the show and said why did we waste our time with this show.

The Tyger has been part of the show for years. Red John quoted it to Jane when he saved his life.

Right. I was surprised to see all the posts from people who did not seem to know this.

Also, in season 3, Bertram quoted another William Blake poem to LaRoche, which made it look like Bertram might be RJ, way back then, since RJ had already been established as a William Blake fan by him quoting Tyger, Tyger. And Todd Johnson's dying words in the hospital, spoken to Jane, were "Tyger, Tyger". Then this season, Partridge's last words, spoken to Lisbon, were "Tyger, Tyger".

So now, the question is... is RJ part of the TT conspiracy, or was he just giving Jane a heads up about them?

I think RJ needs all the help he can get to pull off the things that he does, so I lean towards him being part of the Tyger conspiracy (as well as being associated with Visualize). But that does not necessarily mean that everyone in the Tyger conspiracy knows about RJ.

I'm disappointed that "Tyger Tyger" has turned into the secret passphrase for some law enforcement conspiracy group. It feels cheap and out of place, and a retcon. It doesn't seem to fit the original introduction of the phrase into the series very well.

My money is on Reede Smith as Red John, only because Brett Stiles is too obvious a choice.

__________________
1 Roamio Plus
2 Lifetime Premieres, 2 HDs, 2 S2DTs
1 Original Philips S1 from all the way back in 1999!

I'm disappointed that "Tyger Tyger" has turned into the secret passphrase for some law enforcement conspiracy group. It feels cheap and out of place, and a retcon. It doesn't seem to fit the original introduction of the phrase into the series very well.

Which leads to my confusion. I thought Tiger Tiger was a catch-phrase for RJ for all these years. But now it's the secret handshake for a LEO cabal? Or am I missing something?

Also, not sure what's going on with the driver who shot <forgot his name> who was escaping but not escaping. What's up with the PTSD? Plus, there is no way that entire incident passes muster, if *anyone* takes a closer look.

Which leads to my confusion. I thought Tiger Tiger was a catch-phrase for RJ for all these years. But now it's the secret handshake for a LEO cabal? Or am I missing something?

It is Tyger, not Tiger. Anyway, we now know that it is both. As busyba mentioned in this thread, either RJ is a part of the Tyger conspiracy (most likely I think), or he was trying to lead Patrick to it. As for why RJ would tell Patrick about Tyger, I have no clue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrohip

Also, not sure what's going on with the driver who shot <forgot his name> who was escaping but not escaping. What's up with the PTSD? Plus, there is no way that entire incident passes muster, if *anyone* takes a closer look.

It's a good thing for them that they have lots of Tyger connections to cover stuff like that up.

I have to give Red John credit for knowing Cho's type. The girl he used for the honey trap was very similar to the hooker that he hooked up with a season or two ago. She had the same look and mannerisms.

__________________"Wow... I so love you" --To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"of course, you are 100% correct" --To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"busyba is officially my favorite poster." --To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I told my wife that I'm about 90% sure that VanPelt(sp) and/or hubby will be targeted by RJ before this is all done. They are really starting to push the lovey dovey marriage stuff a bit too much lately. Hubby telling Cho how deeply in love he is and can't live without her blah blah. Same kind of stuff coming from her to some extent.

I think RJ will hit where it hurts Jane, that being his closest friend(s) that he works with.