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Need Opinions On Engine Work

Alright, so I need some opinions. I've been wanting to get my shortblock rebuilt, right? It's about the only part of the car I haven't replaced or heavily overhauled. It's got high miles, leaks up the wazoo, and has been known to scare me with things like milky looking oil, white smoke, brown coolant after only a short time, etc. And it just doesn't seem all that healthy to me. The inner workings of an engine are not all that foreign to me, but I've never actually DONE one myself, and I don't really trust myself not to do something wrong. I want this car good to go, long term, in near daily driver duty.

Anyway, I called a local engine shop to get an idea of what it would cost me to have this done at a shop. This means, I drive it there, they do their thing, test everything out, I drive it home. This appeals to me for a number of reasons. 1) obviously it's the least amount of work for me. 2) it gives someone besides me some measure of responsibility with how things are put together, and gives me the opportunity to have someone else look over what all I've done and make sure I haven't screwed something important up. 4) Someone who really knows what he/she is doing would install and degree my new cam. 5) They would install more performance oriented parts in the bottom end that I wouldn't get with a reman shortblock.

They got back to me with a ballpark figure of $5000. That is about DOUBLE what I was expecting. It's not a final number, and I haven't actually brought the car to them for them to look at, but I have to assume, I'm looking at paying something very close to that from just about any place I have it done. Although, I do plan to get more quotes.

We do have the money, but I really don't know if i can justify paying that. I don't even really want to ask my wife if she'd be okay with me spending that much of the family's money (at least not all at once) on something that's pretty much just for ME. Obviously I know there are cheaper ways to go, such as buying a reman shortblock and slapping it in myself. I could pull my engine myself and bring it to the shop out of the car... and so on.

If you're lucky enough to have a relative or a good friend who is an experienced engine builder, he could show you how it's done and look over your shoulder as you do the work. Buying the parts and doing the assembly yourself, with supervision, will knock to cost of the rebuild 'way down.

When I was a youngster, my father worked as a civilian mechanic in the engine build up shop on an Air Force base, rebuilding Pratt & Whitney 18-cylinder radial aircraft engines. I had a '60 Falcon when I was in high school, and Dad and I tore it down, had the cylinders re-bored, and rebuilt it. I learned a lot and it was a great father/son bonding experience.

The easiest way to do it is research prices for a crate motor and just swap it out. That way you can get what you want in horsepower and know what you are getting. If you was closer to me I would help you build it.
Bob

Don’t overlook the option of getting a long block from Ford. I went thru this years ago and found the local Ford dealer gave the best deal. The best part is that it was 8n stock! In this case, the engine was for my truck. I also needed it to transport the engine before and after.

I have done the reassembly after having a machine shop doo all the work and that’s fine too. It does take more time.

Built up crate motors are fine too but you are paying for the upgrades too.

I've paid $4000 grand for just a motor rebuild.
That means I pulled it and stripped it and reinstalled.
$5000 is a good deal if it includes all that labour.
So the question is where are they shortchanging you on parts?

For $5k and the shop doing all the work including pulling and reinstalling the engine I assume they would be using a completely stock long block as the base. I think that's actually a decent price, but if you could do more of the work yourself you could afford some upgrades for the same money.

Engine work is expensive, no way around it. To say I ran over budget when I built mine would be quite an understatement.

I assume you have the mechanical skills and tools to pull and reinstall the engine yourself so you can save significant money by doing that yourself without worrying about making any major mistake that will ruin the entire project.

I personally don't feel comfortable assembling a short block. There are many measurements that must be precise and a mistake can ruin the whole engine so I like to start with an assembled short block. A quick check shows you can buy a 306 short block for $2350 or if you prefer a stroker (331 or 347) can be purchased for the same price. You could then choose good H/C/I parts of your choice and probably still be right around that same $5k figure but you'd have a better than stock engine.

I just don't see doing the job a whole lot cheaper. If you were to buy a new short block you will certainly want to replace your old cam and lifters and either have your heads refurbished or replaced, perhaps with used ones, but the nickles and dimes will add up to more than you might think. That's why if I were going so far as to replace the short block I'd go the rest of the way with at minimum new heads, cam and lifters.

I've been pretty surprised how expensive crate motors are, actually too. For example, if you look at which ones LMR offers, and stuff like that. Although I know many of them are far better than stock.

I have good heads. They are GT40P from a few years ago put together by Ethyl Cat. I'd rather not buy another set with a longblock if I can help it. Although if that ends up being the best way to go, I will. I just don't have a lot of room for extra parts, and hate having to sell things.

I'm guessing part of why the price isn't higher is, they expect to be able to use my block, crank, and other expensive parts. I'll have a new Flowtech cam for them to install.

I do have the skills to remove the engine, and have done so a few times now. But I do like the idea of having someone else down deep in the inner workings of my car, just so they could let me know if something i did is wrong.

Where do you guys like to buy engines? I had some difficulty just googling it. I didn't seem to come up with much, short of Jasper, and they only deal in longblocks (I checked).

You might check Summit or Jegs, they offer crate motors from multiple engine builders for reasonable prices. I purchased a long block from ATK, it was delivered to me for 2900.00 complete with a full 2 yr warrantee. it runs great and I haven't had a single problem with it.

Going rates of 100.00/hr are absurd. Who actually gets dirty and gets paid that?
Everything is 100, 500, Round numbers. F that. This is low tech work.
No or low tech work at high tech prices. Fuel for owner's yacht?
Tech prob makes 30.00 hr if that. And do all the work.
2 days dissassy, clean= 8x100x2=1600 out of pocket and engine in pieces.
Anything done DIY saves money. Pay yourself the 100.00/hr.
Cleaning, disassembly, prep of the old is a major task in itself.
Similar, but way more tech and details involved, as painting a house.

Like they say time is money. Going faster, engine mods, cost money.
I agree- no sense buying duplicate parts. It is hard to save or throw everything away.
Mass produced reman engines are generally less expensive than equivalent hand built by shop.
No padded teardown time and labor tacked on.
Figure a budget, list, notebook, and what will be done by whom.

Options:
If keeping the heads, not going to assemble rotating assy, go short block.
The foundation. Parts are done, checked, and ready for the top half of buildup.
Heads. Then build fast forwards to final stage: installing dress parts from old engine to new.
Weed out the good, replacing worn or suspect parts.

Crate short blocks save time if willing or can to do the work. Can use current heads.
Most of us already have the various hand tools needed. Torque wrench is a must.
Renew and transfer dress parts as is. Known good to go parts. 'Kit' them according to reassy order.
Stage everything in advance for minimum downtime. Special work area is a big plus.
Cams, lifters are no big deal. Timing chain, dis, all index and drop in assy items.
Machine work is usually done by a shop. Most DIY not have the tools or machinery for this.
Piston/rod, bearings, and crank assy are most critical and not that hard to do.
Same with cam, timing chain, dis, and associated timing setup procedures.

Crate long block is like buying a spare engine. Nice option. Especially one exact ready to install.
Comes with costly parts not needed if reusing current engine parts like heads, intake.
Can use the old engine as learning practice then future mod build little at a time.
If storing, wrap it as is in thick plastic, place in large plastic box or build simple crate for it, keep dry.
I have seen many 5.0 HO EFI engines in the salvage yards. Local u-pick one here gets 200 for one.

DIY work:
Lots of my coworkers on the engine line had no clue how an engine worked, nor cared.
Yet they installed cams, pumps, heads, valves, springs, gaskets, more.
Each task at a workstation has a certain procedure to learn and follow to completion.
Then the next workstation did their thing. Trick is when to assy what, when, and how.

Remaned the current engine in my car. No leaks. 18 years, 100k+. Runs equal or better than new. Reliable.
Followed the Ford shop manual. Hints from internet, books, mags. DIY repairs are a passion.
Not ASE certified. Attitude, confidence, procedures, learned on a Ford engine line.
The worst is overthinking or the unknown, grey areas. If in doubt, stop, read, call for advice.
Pulled, disassembled engine, cleaned tagged, boxed, bagged parts to be reused. Took notes.
Machine work done by race shop. Bare block, rods, and crank recon, ordered parts and gapped rings.
Basically stock 2.3T engine. Some parts were updated to current tech. Shop costs about 800 in 1999.
Guess 1000 now. Total was 'bout 2200 completed.

Where do you guys like to buy engines? I had some difficulty just googling it. I didn't seem to come up with much, short of Jasper, and they only deal in longblocks (I checked).

I bought my short block from Coast High Performance and couldn't be more pleased but that was 10 years ago and they are now under new ownership so I can't say for sure things are still the same. You might want to check them out though. That's where I got the $2350 price for a short block I quoted in my previous post. You can have your choice of 306, 331, or 347 for that price. Seems pretty reasonable to me and they are a high volume dealer so they definitely know what they are doing. They are based in CA so shipping wouldn't be as bad for you as it was for me in PA.

I had a low mile engine so I had it rebuilt since I knew what I had going in. A crate motor I had no idea what had been done to it. I had a complete rebuild, new crank, cam, pistons, gt40 heads etc for about 3800 done by a really good shop.

It's looking like the most likely scenario is me ordering a shortblock and swapping it in myself. I just can't justify shelling out 5K. I don't think I'm going to waste any more time researching the all-shop option. As nice as it would be, this car just isn't what a shop like that normally works on, cars that have the value of their work built in, like classic muscle cars or whatever, so that people don't mind spending that much. Not that I ever intend to sell the car, but essentially I'm flushing that money down the toilet if I go that route.

It's interesting I'm finding that shortblocks can come with or without a cam, front cover, balancer, etc. I'd be happy with using the front cover and balancer from my engine, and I'll already have a cam, so there's really no need for them.

I checked out ATK, but it looks like they don't offer a 302 anymore. Just strokers for significantly more money (still pretty affordable), so that's frustrating. I worry about going with a stroker producing power levels that aren't compatible with other parts I already have and intend to use such as intake, injectors, and electronics. I don't want to have to buy all that stuff again. Not to mention piston-to-valve clearance. I really don't know that much about what's involved in building a stroker. ATK's prices DO include free shipping though, so I like that!

Anyway, as far as having my work looked over, there's still the step of getting the ECM tuned. I could have things looked over at that time. That probably won't be until next spring at this point. Once I fix the few minor problems keeping the car off the road, I might as well just drive it for this season, then do the engine work in the fall/winter.

I do want to keep things as close to stock as possible though just so it doesn't screw up the cam plan Ed Curtis made for me based on a stock bottom end. I'm shooting for forged pistons though, and it seems like most "stock" reman ones out there skew towards '93 spec, which uses hypereutectic.

I do want to keep things as close to stock as possible though just so it doesn't screw up the cam plan Ed Curtis made for me based on a stock bottom end. I'm shooting for forged pistons though, and it seems like most "stock" reman ones out there skew towards '93 spec, which uses hypereutectic.

The biggest issue with most of the typical "reman" engines is they are done as cheap as possible. Only broken or severely worn parts are replaced. If the parts meet the wide tolerances they allow then they are used again. So you really get what you pay for. Unfortunately that is just the nature of the beast and there are no real ways around it. I personally won't buy any engines from AutoZone, Oreilly's, Advance Auto, etc. as they are all generally built in the same plant and they are all junk IMHO. The SP Precision linked to above is most likely the exact same thing. I can't guarantee that as I have not used them, but I wouldn't chance it.

I would recommend considering a DSS, CHP, or the Fox Lake Racing you linked to long before anything else so far. If that is just not in the budget, then I would recommend trying to find a 87-93 5.0 Mustang EFI engine and if needed do a "budget" rebuild on that. Honestly that will most likely work better and last longer than most of the "reman" setups. Obviously not the fanciest and coolest setup, but it works and can work very well if done correctly.

As for your Ed Curtis cam, as long as your compression and heads match up with what the cam was specified for you should be fine. In regard to pistons both Forged and Hypereutectic work just fine. If you plan on nitrous or boost then you really want Forged. If neither of those are in the future then there is nothing wrong with quality Hypereutectic pistons. In face they run tighter tolerances than Forged which allows tighter piston ring gaps and generally less piston clatter at start up. Two of the main reasons why Ford used them in the early 90's over the Forged and the fact they are cheaper.

​Trey

"I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

"I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

For my current 302 I got a good used forged roller block, took it to the builder with my head, cam and intake package. He did a full rebuild, with rings not pistons, balance, and put the motor together for me for about $2000. It's got 11r heads, Buddy Rawls cam, and it's a screamer.

Thanks again guys. Trey, I would not have known that about reman engines, although it does make sense given what they cost.

Here's where I'm at with things. I looked on DSS's site and it looks to me like they don't offer their more affordable package in a 306. Although, oddly, the next one up is offered, and that guy costs $6000, so that's why it got a "not available" on my spreadsheet. Here's what my research has yielded:

FoxLaneRacing is the front runner given the value and closer proximity to Ohio. Blueprint gets negative points for giving me another cam I don't want, and there's a note on their website "not for EGR", which I have. Although it IS really nice you can get it with free shipping from Jegs. So, then numbers 2 and 3 are Coast and Tre Performance. Coast gets a bump up because of the positive references here.

I wish I knew more about the stroker thing, but at least it helps narrow the field.

Keep in mind the stock 302 crank is a pretty stout piece overall. Sure a Forged crank is the way to go if you are going to spin the HELL out of it and/or just beat the crap out of it! BUT 302 cranks very seldom fail even in some serious power making engines. Are there failures . . . SURE but most of the time the OEM block will split down the middle before the crank breaks.

This is the same age old question of Speed Cost Money . . . How Fast can you AFFORD to Go! If you are looking to build a 300HP or even up to a 350HP engine, I would not worry about a stock 302 crank or even the rods. Yes, install a good set of ARP rod bolts, install a lower end girdle if that makes you feel better, but there's little reason to spend more $$$ on aftermarket parts when they aren't necessary.

As stated the Explorer 5.0 is another great option for a budget build. You need to verify the year and which heads are installed as that can cause you EGR issues, but heck the GT40 and GT40P heads are about the best OEM stock heads you can get so that's a bonus alone. Yes, the cam and the pistons in the Explorer engine are crap, but those are both easy fixes and as stated you already have the cam, so . . . .

I just checked on car-part.com using your zip code, there's a 5.0 Explorer engine with 165K only 200 miles from you for $500 and another just over 200 for $495. Both are 96 models, but I am not sure if that is the setup you need or not, but those both appear to be great options if you are up for a day trip and a little cash. Good Luck!

​Trey

"I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

"I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

I think I am going to go the performance rebuild route (FoxLake, etc). As for straight used, I've already got one engine in questionable condition, I don't need another. I just don't want to spend that 5K is all. There's some room underneath that for buying something of good quality.

I've been doing some shopping around for what I would need to assemble my engine from a shortblock. Waterpump, lifters, pushrods, timing set, various gaskets, and maybe rocker arms. I haven't found evidence I replaced the lifters and pushrods back when I installed the heads. Summit oddly claims to not have anything for my application for lifters and pushrods. That's just strange. LMR seems to have decent prices for that stuff, and I feel like I can trust them to get the application/fit right. Their prices seem to be better than Jegs, surprisingly. Also on timing sets.

As for rocker arms, the only brand of pedestal mount I can find is Proform. And people don't seem to like them...

LMR has a lot of stuff and generally their prices are pretty decent. You just need to do your homework and verify they have the best deal as their prices generally include shipping which is great, but when ordering large quantities, sometimes you get a better deal from other vendors that offer free shipping above a certain price point.

Generally with Summit Racing, I look up 5.0 EFI parts as 1993 Cobra 5.0 and that has almost always worked for me. Obviously yours is a hybrid like most of my Foxes, so just pay attention to some of the possible differences depending on what you need/want to do and you will be fine. Good Luck!

​Trey

"I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

"I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."