I've wondered something similar. The nutrients found in organ meats is much much more bio-available than the nutrients in produce. There may be some that are more easily acquired through produce, I'm not sure.

I'll let other argue the science. I can tell the difference in how I feel when I make it a point to include lots of vegetables and some fruit in my diet and when I don't. I feel an overall sense of well-being, energy and happiness when I eat a big ass salad daily. I was not doing this last winter, felt like crap, couldn't lose weight and came close to giving up on primal.

I've wondered something similar. The nutrients found in organ meats is much much more bio-available than the nutrients in produce. There may be some that are more easily acquired through produce, I'm not sure.

Exactly, we don't have the enzymes necessary to break down cells walls. The animals do. I saw someone say earlier that you won't be able to take much omega 3 out of flax, but the chicken whose eggs you eat can.

I'll let other argue the science. I can tell the difference in how I feel when I make it a point to include lots of vegetables and some fruit in my diet and when I don't. I feel an overall sense of well-being, energy and happiness when I eat a big ass salad daily. I was not doing this last winter, felt like crap, couldn't lose weight and came close to giving up on primal.

What he said!

The past 2 winters, I've eaten BAS's through fall & winter, which was great. Though I of course do make & chew/slurp down some nice autumnal root & meaty stews, some thick bone broths with vegetables cooked down to release their mineraly & vitaminy goodness into the bone broth.

Life without veggies & some fruits would be dull, tiresome & quickly for me at least, mentally, physically & energetically unhealthy. I could do it in case of extreme deprivation or emergency of course, but it'd never be a choice.

Even when I'm VLCing it &/or going for ketosis, I still eat some low carb veggies, almost every day though some days its just a fat & meat festival.

I can see myself eating a LOT more veggies some day while cutting back on all the fat & meat I dive into lately, when/if I meet my lean gains goals/maintenance & other health goals I've set for myself.

Originally Posted by BennettC

Exactly, we don't have the enzymes necessary to break down cells walls. The animals do. I saw someone say earlier that you won't be able to take much omega 3 out of flax, but the chicken whose eggs you eat can.

Uh, no. Dude thats so patently false: Enzymes exist on our mouths, via saliva, for the beginning of the breakdown of carbs (grain, fruits, veggies & even sugar). Didn't we all do that same experiment in High School Biology class, with chewing a piece of bread for 3-5 minutes til it turned to sugar in our mouths via enzymatic action?

Amylase is the broad group of enzymes that help digest carbohydrates. They break down starches and sugars. Foods that these enzymes would break down include potatoes, fruits, vegetables, snack foods and breads. Under this broad heading of amylase, there are several subsets of enzymes that break down more specific carbohydrates.

Diastase

Diastase helps break down the starch that is prominent in most vegetables. This would be the digestive enzyme that helps break down carrots, broccoli, cauliflower and Brussels sprouts. Other types of vegetables need a different enzyme, as explained below.

Alpha-Glactosidase

Alpha-glactosidase is the enzyme that helps with the digestion of beans, legumes (peas and other pod-based vegetables), seeds, roots, soy and underground stems such as onions, potatoes, ginger and taro. Green beans, lima beans and even baked beans would be broken down by this enzyme. Sunflower and pumpkin seeds would also be broken down by this enzyme.

Glucoamylase

Glucoamylase is a very important enzyme because it breaks down the starches that are common in most, if not all, carbohydrates. Starches have great nutritional value, but they cannot be absorbed by the body. Glucoamylase breaks these starches down into glucose, which is absorbed by the human body.

As you know, soluable fiber is broken down, if one's gut is healthy enough of course, by gut bacteria as its food. Ala inulin. But there is also a 3rd & quite interesting category, not well known by many people, called resistant starches.

Carbohydrates and Dietary Fibre
Resistant starch
Resistant starch - while not traditionally thought of as fibre - acts in a similar way. Resistant starch is a part of starchy food (approximately 10 per cent) that resists normal digestion. It is found in many unprocessed cereals and grains, firm bananas, potatoes and lentils, and is added to bread and breakfast cereals as Hi-Maize. It can also be formed by cooking and manufacturing processes such as snap freezing. Resistant starch is also important in bowel health. Bacteria in the large bowel ferment and change the resistant starch into short-chain fatty acids, which are important to bowel health and may protect against cancer. These fatty acids are also absorbed into the bloodstream and may play a role in lowering blood cholesterol levels.Resistant starch has some of the nutritional characteristics of fibre but its effect on heart disease risk factors are equivocal.
Also this:

In 1997 the World Health Organisation (WHO) and Food Agriculture Organisation (FAO) reviewed all the evidence regarding carbohydrates and fibre and reported that: 'dietary fibre is a nutritional concept, not an exact description of a component of diet and that the use of the term dietary fibre should always be qualified by a statement itemizing those carbohydrates and other substances intended for inclusion'.
The WHO/FAO recommended that carbohydrates be defined in several ways: 1. Chain length: this describes whether the carbohydrate consists of one-two molecules (simple sugar), a short chain (oligosaccharides) or a long chain of sugar molecules (polysaccharides or non-starch polysaccaride). 2. Glycaemic or non-glycaemic: this describes whether the carbohydrate can be digested to provide glucose for absorption from the small intestine; the corollary is, if it is undigestible, it passes onto the large intestine where it may be fermented by bacteria3. Fermentable or non-fermentable: this describes whether the carbohydrate has survived digestion in the small intestine, if it has survived digestion, it is fermented (broken down) by bacteria in the large gut (colon).

This is a new way of thinking and has not yet been widely written about in text books or in the lay literature. This article is therefore based on the earlier definitions of carbohydrates.

Bottom line I grok from all this is that we are adapted to process & use fruits and vegetables, even grains & beans. Though we all agree grains & beans are sub-optimal.

To sum up: Used judiciously & in moderation, consumption of fruits and veggies confer more health benefits than drawbacks.

Brown and red seaweeds contain carbohydrate structures called sulfated polysaccharides. Medical research has found that these structures act against herpes simplex virus, which can cause herpes, and cytomegalovirus, a virus that often infects immunosuppressed patients, according to a 1997 article in "General Pharmacology." The article also notes that sulfated polysaccharides show promise as the active ingredient in a vaginal cream to prevent HIV infection.
References

I believe Bennett was referring to us lacking the enzymes necessary for breaking down cellulose not carbs. Which is true. That's what Dr. Ellis was talking about in the video referenced above.

From the notes of that YouTube video: "In this video Dr. Greg Ellis goes over the Paleolithic Diet and gives his opinion on the subject. He starts by talking about how ancient man use to eat and how the vitamin myth has changed how people eat."

To be fair, I found this too: "Dr. Greg Ellis is the number one authority on weight control and nutrition. Through forty years of scientific research Dr. Ellis has found the answer to why so many Americans are over weight. It's simple and to gain a clear understanding of what the cause is, a shift in thinking is required. The reason why so many Americans are overweight is due to misinformation and myths about the foods we should eat and why.I will show you how to lose the weight you want and at the same time gain LEAN MUSCLE TISSUE without all the fake, over marketed supplements out there today!"

Who ranked Dr Greg as #1 or is this more opinion/hyperbole from Byebyecarbs??

I think Dr Greg is without any doubt a LOT smarter & more knowlegeable & experienced than I am @ paleo nutrition & fitness training & weight loss with his clients than I am with mine. But I disagree, in part, with some of his specific opinions & assertions on this particular subject.

I have just recently advocated a 100% carb free ketotic 3 week phase to a potential client who was seriously a vegan carb/sugar addict. So I do believe the efficacy of VLC or even periods of NO carbs. I know some hard core paleos do well on long term 100% meat & fat diets. For them, it's quite healing. But many people do not do well eating that way, for a multitude of reasons. In fact, many people suffer & have health issues, both physical & emotional, from attempting to do so, because their ego or their dogma tells them its the superior way - the way our paleo ancestors lived. Truthfully, there is no single model for paleo man's diet, the terrain & circumstances were too diverse for anyone to definitively say one way is factually how ancient men & women ate. That's another point too, that women's metabolisms & brains developed & evolved quite differently than men. This we can all agree on, yes?

I personally believe that for the average peson, who is not attempting to use ketosis to treat their disease such as epilepsy or a metabolic syndrome such as hyper- or hypo-thyrodism, alternating between deep ketotic states & mild re-charges is optimal & allows for the spirit of Mark's 80/20 concept to come into play, with beneficial effects.

I love ketosis, but I love dark chocolate truffles & berry/banana smoothies too. Have enjoyed both of them this month...

Last edited by Betorq; 09-23-2012 at 01:44 AM.

"Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous"Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
"The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

I think this is another 'to each his own' situation. Some people feel great eating lots of fruit and/or veggies, and others don't.

I was a big proponent of veggies, until I was forced to accept the fact that my digestive system just can't handle them and they were contributing big time to my IBS. I now eat very few veggies, and I feel much better. I tend to eat fruit regularly, but I stick to lower fiber ones (ex: melon over berries) and make sure I peel everything.

As to the enzyme issue, humans don't produce the enzyme cellulase, which is required to digest cellulose, the insoluble fiber commonly found in vegetable skins, crucifers, and leafy veggies such as kale. Instead of digesting this stuff, we have to rely on gut bacteria to ferment it, which in many people can cause gas, bloating, inflammation, and other gastrointestinal problems over time.

My n=1 experience has shown me that I'm much better off without much in the way of veggies (except for the low fiber ones like peeled squashes + cucumbers and some carrots and peppers here and there). I think the nutrition in veggies is largely inaccessible, and I'd prefer to get my nutrition from more bioavailable sources. However, I digest fruit just fine, and I tend to feel much better when I'm eating plenty of fruit.

wow good info guys! and as for the bread test ive never even heard of that as I didn't graduate so that's interesting. The questions was do we need them? I enjoy them as well guys, love avocados, coconut, nut butter, dark chocolate, mushies, ect. love fruit too but trying to avoid it. however for me it was nice to not worry about eating that big ass salad everyday after I saw this video. I hate salad!