I
FIRST OF TWO TAPES
Interview with T. R. McConnell, May 3, 1979 (interviewer Brenda K. Shelton)
SIDE I
001 Reasons for coming to U.B .... invitation to come to discuss
possible appointment came "out of the blue" ... offered suggestions
for candidates ... letter from Seymour Knox asking him to return
to learn more about the campus •.. was offered the position
015 Knew very little about U.B .... did not know Capen, but as
Chancellor had a part in getting Capen's papers published
022 Decision to come ... had a feeling that experience at the University
of Minnesota would be useful at that time in Buffalo ...
a good time to leave the University of Minnesota although
they made offers to try to keep hirn ... could not asswne a
"preferential" job
047 U.B. in need of moving on after a long and distinguished career
of Dr. Capen ... interest and experience in private higher education
056 Graduated from Cornell College in Iowa .•. was appointed as an
instructor in English ... took over the course in introductory
education ... later did the same thing with the introductory
psychology course ... led to becoming an educational psychologist
069 Was asked to become dean of the college ... went from this position
to the University of Minnesota, but still is a member of the
Board of Trustees
072 Contrast between Cornell College and U.B ....
0"15 Goals on coming to Buffalo ... first job was to "put the house in
financial order" ... balanced budget had been created by "riding
up student tuition and the students didn't appear in that
number" ... the year ended with a $12,000 deficit ... this immediate
problem was only symptomatic of the fundamental financial problems
of the University
090 Established an organization to strengthen the ties of the
University to its city and its region ..• to use these ties for
financial and moral support
100 University had a relatively small nwnber of distinguished
scholars ... tried to lay the foundation for strengthening the
intellectual life of the institution and the faculty ...
development of research and scholarship
115 Appointed University professors, "not only to reward them, ...
but to use them as models for the faculty"
120 There was the rumor that he would not promote anyone who was
not doing research and scholarly writing ... not true ... at
Minnesota, made promotions of distinguished teachers ... let
rumor stand
McConnell page 2
SIDE I (cont'd.)
129 Those in power in the faculty and administration had been
at the University a long time ... transition was somewhat
difficult ... no particular difficulties with the power
structure ... did all possible to support people like Pratt
and others who did scholarly work and at the same time
supported "people like John Horton, who lectured in Latin
but didn't write any books" ...
154 The administrative organization was one of dual responsibility
to the Council [Chancellor and Treasurer] ... accepted position
on the condition that this arrangement be changed so that
the financial officer would be responsible to the Chancellor
and only the Chancellor would be responsible to the Council
165 Crofts remained a year as Treasurer .•. was not "obstructive in
any particular way" ... on one occasion the Finance Committee
requested information, Crofts evaded, McConnell said,
"perhaps it'll take a little time to get the information you
want together and we 'll have it ready for the next meeting" ...
told Crofts to get it ready •.. few such incidents
182 Emily Webster very close to Mr. Crofts, who decided what, who
took the initiative is unknown ... she was friendly, cooperative,
"knew all that was expected from that office"
206 Discovered that someone in the Treasurer's Office was rebating
tuition of selected athletes ... "I think it was Miss Webster
and I don't think anybody had given her permission to do this.
Mr. Crofts might have known it and might have approved, I
can't say; but without ever asking him, I can guarantee that
Chancellor Capen didn't know it."
218 Only criticism of Chancellor Capen was that he "didn't want to
know anything about athletics" ... if he didn't know he wasn't
responsible ... may be attributing motivation unfairly ... same
criticism could be made of many university presidents .. .
attitude has since been that the president should be responsible
238 Not sure where pressure for athletic rebates carne from
243 Many influential alumni were in favor of an expanded sports
program ... in agreement with Dr. Capen, McConnell did not believe
in a professional football team
253 Council's power was not extensive ... the real authority was the
General Administrative Committee ... about one-third of the
voting members of the Council were elected by the Alumni, some
were very interested in football, but most of them were not
on the Administrative Committee
McConnell page 3
SIDE I (cont'd.)
270 [Feels that he, himself] did not effectively "educate the
Council, as a whole, with respect to the affairs of the
institution" •.. one of the most important functions of a
university president is to educate the governing body ... did
think and worry about this, but was busy and the Council
was large ... didn't take enough time .•.
287 Mr. Knox was kept closely informed ... was a remarkable Chairman
[of the Council] ... "understood university affairs almost
intuitively" ... supportive ... was frequently asked for his
point of view
303 Mr. Osborn, Vice Chairman of Council •.. during Parry case
Osborn and Knox were invited to a luncheon meeting ..• [McConnell]
had decided to accept the faculty recommendation to keep Parry;
Knox said, halfway through the discussion, "You want to keep
him, don't you?" ... Osborn was "on the Board of Trustees of
another university in which the faculty and president are at
odds, and I don't want any more of that" ... the question was
settled
335 Parry case to be discussed
END OF SIDE I
SIDE II
034 Comments on Parry case "subject to correction" ... has not had
a chance to go over the papers ... Chairman of UnAmerican
Activities Committee was very critical of university and
college faculty ...
041 Expected problems, "most universities of any consequence did
have a problem" ... appointed faculty committee to establish
policy in advance of a particular case ... tried to select well
respected, judicious members
056 Policy, in general, stated "that if a faculty member was called
before the UnAmerican Activities Committee he should not plead
the 5th Amendment, but if he had been a member of the C01mnunist
Party to say so, or if he was still a member of the Communist
Party he should say so." ... this was thought to be consistent
with the "integrity and openness" of the university faculty
064 Parry was called before the Committee ... pled the 5th in violation
of the advice of the Committee (which had been approved
by the General Administrative Committee) ... called a faculty
meeting to make known the policy statement ... some faculty were
very critical of the policy's having been submitted to the
General Administrative Committee without informing the faculty ...
McConnell page 4
SIDE II (cont'd.)
064 Dean of Education made an "extremely critical" speech
(cont'd.)
077 "The document prevailed" ... there were two possible procedures:
one was to have the Chancellor appoint a special committee
to hear the case; the other was for the Execuitve Co~nittee
of the College faculty to hear the case •.. the Dean of the
College of Arts and Sciences, Executive Committee chose to
assert/maintain its responsibility in hearing the case
085 Parry admitted freely to this committee (although he refused
to do so to the Congressional Committee) that he had been,
but no longer was a Communist Party member ... Parry was asked
not to have counsel at the Executive Committee meetings, but
could decline comment on any question pending private
discussion with counsel .. the same right was extended to the
Committee
097 Very unpleasant ... digging into a man's soul
100 [McConnell].came to the conclusion that his home phone was
being tapped by the FBI ... asked members of the Committee not
to call, but to come in person to the office
106 The decision that was made concerning Parry was approved by
the General Administrative Committee ..• McConnell was in constant
touch with the Secretary of the Association of University
Professors in Washington (Ralph Himstead) in order to be sure
of "procedure" •.• solution was very similar to the "Fury Case"
at Harvard, for which Harvard received public commendation
120 Decision: "to revoke his tenure, but to leave him on the staff,
and to have him go through the same procedure- evaluation,
recommendation for tenure."
129 Expected public criticism ... contacted Kirchhofer of the Buffalo
Evening News to d{scuss reasons behind the decision •.• to say "I
realized that he would make whatever comments he chose, but
that support would be very helpful." ... he wrote an editorial
disagreeing with the decision, but saying that the only body
having the right to make the decision had made it
147 Erie County American Legion met a day or so later, denounced
the decision
152 Inter-relationship of the University and Buffalo: "The few
formal financial campaigns conducted by the University had been
conducted by members of the Council, Mr. Cooke for example ...
Dr. Capen had an agreement that he >vould not be responsible for
financial promotion". , . there was a long period of time with
"no systematic community cultivation either of finance or
support"
McConnell page 5
SIDE II (cont'd.)
166 Tried to do things to strengthen ties between the University
and the community ... appointed liaison comrni ttee to work with
industry ... needed to establish a basic foundation for
Universi ty-Comrnuni ty relationship ·which did not at that
time exist
176 There was the same situation with other than financial
matters .•. failed to penetrate certain elements ... for example,
there were many Polish and Italian students, but those two
communities had no relationship with the University
190 One reason dormitories were established was to "bring life to
the campus, not only to give students a sense of community
and membership in the University, but to bring people in the
community to the University for lectures and concerts" ...
198 It seemed "reasonably normal" for those who support the
University [i.e. Council members] to send their children away
to other schools ... "but I'm afraid there was a kind of patronizing
attitude tow·ard the University in influential members of
the cornrnunity." ... although there were many exceptions, "but
there was no sense of intimacy. I think you could find people
who are students of higher education who would say there
ought not to be very much intimacy between a community and
a university ... they fear control, they fear too much influence."
219 Was approached by amernber of the legal community who objected
to the Law School's patterning itself after Harvard, and its
lack of interest in the local bar ... the Law School did eventually
become interested in community legal affairs
232 "Relationships between the Medical School and local hospitals
were varied and complicated" ... pressure and a million dollar
offer to keep the Medical School near the General Hospital .•.
many faculty of the Medical School were practicing Buffalo
physicians ... one difficulty of the Medical School "was that
it had a pretty good clinical staff, but it was not adequate
in the medical sciences."
249 "Dr. Stockton Kimball was a cooperative, intelligent and able
person" ... but was in the middle of "the struggle for power
and position among the hospitals and medical. groups in the city"
255 Most faculty in the Dental School were practicing dentists ...
many graduates of U.B. were succeeded by their sons ... the
Dental Dean was told to bring in "people from other backgrounds"
268 "These are not things that are particularly true only of
Buffalo."
272 Part of the function of the Liaison Committee was to help bal-·
ance community input with needs of the University ... "wanted a
means of two-way communication without the danger of control"
McConnell page 6
SIDE II (cont'd.)
292 Buffalo was a "curious case" .•. many of the major industrial
firms in Buffalo had their central offices in other locations
and that made for a particularly difficult problem ... you
could get some contribution from a firm, but not as much as
if it had been located in Buffalo
303 Concluded, before leaving, that the future of U.B. as a
private institution was doubtful, though there had not at
that time been any discussions of a State merger
315 "The lack of financial promotion over a long period of time
was devastating to the institution and to make up the difference
would have been extremely difficult" ... Stanford Unive:csity,
however, is one case of miraculous financial and academic
development ... "but Buffalo lacked that foundation on which to
build"
330 " ••• a State University probably has more responsibility to a
much wider area than a private urban university would have;
I don't mean to say that you can ignore Buffalo and the
Niagara Frontier, but nonetheless this institution must have
a wider reference than that, certainly."
345 The University of California is now having considerable
argument about agricultural research at the University .•.
agricultural unions maintain that research was primarily done
to support agribusiness ... many aspects of a public institution's
relationship to the public it serves ... can no longer ignore
some and favor others
375 "While a university needs to be sensitive to the research needs,
to the developmental needs of industry and commerce in its
area, it has to be extremely careful to devise methods of
doing this without succumbing to undue control."
388 It is difficult "to maintain the integrity of the institution
and yet to serve its community in appropriate ways"} this
also applies to cultural activities
END OF TAPE
~EQOND OF TWO TAPES
Interview with T. R. McConnell, May 3, 1979 (interviewer Brenda K. Shelton)
SIDE I
001 Various factions/groups want control of the University ... "perhaps
I shouldn't have used the word 'maneuver' [in previous tape]
because this suggests something that isn't entirely open to all
concerned"
015 Responsibility of university presidents to mobilize the efforts
of these constituencies to suit the University's purposes ...
need for cooperation ... "internal power of universities is being
re-distributed" ... authored a monograph, The Re-Distribution of
Power in American Higher Education, confined to internal university
problems only ... president must lead ... this is easy to say,
but hard to do.
034 "The locus of decision-making is moving upward in the insti tu-tion"
... local decisions no longer are possible ... "re-distribution
of faculty according to fields of study and research ... the
clientele is now wanting more vocational and professional education
... which makes it extremely difficult to re-distribute the
resources to take advantage of this.;.this is one of the reasons
why the central administration and perhaps the appropriate
sections of the governing board will have to exercise more
authority and descretion" ... faculty will object ... "not only is
there more participation in governmental affairs, for example,
by students, and the faculty is demanding more participation ...
governing boards, under pressure from the community ... will be
demanding more participation ... yet somehow ... all these interests
and demands have to be .. reconciled in service of the institution"
059 Very little attempt by students at U.B. from 1950-1954 to participate
... tried to keep in touch with students, however
067 "Dorothy Haas was the best person I've ever known to
a link between the administration and the students;
an extremely skillful and able person."
provide
she was
073 "No pressure for decision-making on fundamental university or
academic affairs" ... group of students once came to ask for more
support for athletics
085 Just prior to inauguration, students wrote a very critical review
of a book and angered the Catholic community ... Claude Puffer
received "calls from certain Catholic clergymen who say that if
you don't get that retracted, the Bishop will not turn up at
your inauguration" •.. called in editor (of the student publication)
who offered to "write something that will take the sting away"
in the interest of harmony ... "the more I thought about that,
the more I thought that it was perfectly legitimate for students
to have written this criticism" ... called the editor and told
him not to bother ... the Bishop did attend, "made the invocation
and was friendly as could be"
McConnell page 2
SIDE I (cont'd.)
108 "On the other hand, student publications were a public relations
problem" ... some were irresponsible, but there was no way to
"move in on this without being accused of suppression or
censorship" ... after some particular case a Student-Faculty
Committee on Publications was appointed to deal with the
questions of freedom and responsibility
121 No student pressure during the Parry case "that I remember"
127 "I was tested out on academic freedom after I came in various
ways, the details of which I don't remember, but I think that
the faculty felt that nobody could be as responsible as
Chancellor Capen with respect to the matter ... A conference was
organized soon after I came having to do with civil liberties
and academic freedom and so on, and I'm pretty sure it was
organized for my benefit, so to speak ... I had agreed to lecture
at the University of Minnesota and I missed the conference"
136 Capen had a "clean-cut view of academic, intellectual freedom"
with no exception ... "and I'm not surprised that I was tested" •..
Capen had been a remarkable Chancellor, testing was understandable
... "I came at a time when there were all kinds of
threats to academic freedom"
155 There were a few instances of cownunity pressure ... Linus Pauling
was invited to lecture (on chemistry) at the University ... the
American Legion demanded that the invitation be withdrawn .. .
McConnell asked "Do you have to worry about chemists •.. being
made into Communists by a chemistry lecture?"
166 "The only time that Mrs. McConnell or I have ever asked for
social publicity was when ... we were having a dinner party in
honor of Linus Pauling"
172 Dr. Capen had firmly established the University's independence ...
the community was accustomed to it ... some of the Council members
also supported the academic freedom policy
180 Professor Pratt would sometimes write letters to the newspapers
which brought criticism ... relationship of U.B. and the Catholic
community ... ''the University was pinched now and then by the
competition" from religious groups
203 "Members of the religious groups had campus offices at which
their representatives could discuss matters with students; I
also discovered, however, that they had begun to offer (non-credit)
courses ... this was inconsistent with the University's nonsectarian
policy and was discontinued ... often consulted with one
rabbi which offended another rabbi who was an Orthodox Jew
234 "These ... may sound like important issues ... but they really weren't .•
they're in the day by day business of the institution which has
McConnell page 3
SIDE I ( cont 'd. )
234 some relations with the community" ... it is important to keep
(cont'd.)in mind the "function and position" of the university
247 The University's relations with the press: the Courier was
more critical than the News, partly because of competition ...
here again, the University had to maintain its independence
264 "Mr. Kirchhofer [of the News] is a ... taciturn man", it was
difficult to develop a· close relationship, but he was open
to discussion ... "but my administrative assistant [Miss Martin]
would protect me from calls from the Courier .•. during the day" ...
they began to call at night, at home
285 Problems with buildings: "we had an extremely able and
aggressive Chairman of the Council's Committee on Buildings
and Grounds ... one Karr Parker; and it was extremely difficult
to get sufficient faculty input in the planning of the buildings •..
many problems with the School of Engineering due to undesirable
construction ... one of the difficulties with the Medical building
was to get more than one elevator •.. he [Parker] didn't like
elevators in academic buildings" ... it was finally insisted that
no plans be completed until the faculty had had a chance to go
over them
321 " ... not sure I ought to say this because I would find difficulty
in finding any records to support it, but one of the principal
difficulties we had during Mr. Parker's regieme was to get
contracts alloted to the lowest bidders, he was inclined to take
the bids and then negotiate the contract with one of the bidders"
331 ... "he [Parker] went to Florida every winter, and while he was
in Florida one winter the Vice Chairman of the Committee ... was
serving as Chairman of the Committee and there was some
construction matter that had to be submitted to bids and we
gave the contract to the lowest bidder and we heard from Mr.
Pm"ker from Florida -· both of us" ... no "extremely serious
problems involved" ... few contractors protested ... "but it was
a matter of considerable significance" ... discussed the matter
directly with Parker, did not involve Knox
367 END OF SIDE I
SIDE II
001 Examples of University-Community interaction: was approached
by a member of the city government whose son had not been
accepted by the Medical School ... "he called my attention to
the fact that the City sewer came only to the corner of the
campus beyond the Medical School, that when the Medical was
built $75,000 would have to be expended to extend the sewer
and that if his son were not admitted to the Medical School
he would see to it that the City didn't provide the $75,000
McConnell page 4
SIDE II (cont•d.)
001 [McConnell] went to the Chairman of the Committee of Admissions
(cont'd.)to look into the matter, found that the decision had been fair·
and unbiased .•. reported back to the father •.• soon after, he
received a call or visit from a Council member who said that he
would speak himself to the Chairman of the Admissions Committee •..
in the end, the boy was not admitted and the City put in the
sewer
04 7 There really were very few dealings with the City of Buffalo
050 "A professor ... wanted to study the acculturation of the Polish
community in Buffalo" .•. luncheon was arranged so that he could
present his case to the mayor and other city officials: "he
thought it would be very helpful to them politically if he
made this study because they would find out a great deal about
the attitudes and backgrounds, the interests and the activities
of the Polish community and this might be very helpful in their
election campaign. The mayor spoke up and said, 'Sorry, we
don •t need any help on the political problems of dealing with
the Polish community' " ... but relations with the City were not
unusually difficult
073 No overt pressure or criticism of which students were admitted
and which were not ... some question about dormitories because
they would attract more students from New York City ... may have
also brought more women since the Dean of Women did not approve
"places where students might stay"
102 There was a student-faculty committee on the general planning
of the residences ... the architect was annoyed at the students•
involvement, but "the students had a good deal of influence on
the facilities"
110 When the Norton Union addition was built a student advisory
Co~nittee was established ... there was also a faculty committee
132 There was a largely local student body ... dormitories helped to
change this ..• "I wanted very much to expand the area served by
the University; this was, in part, because I believed in a
more cosmopolitan institution, but also, in part, ... to reduce
the possible power of the urban community and expand the
interests which were concerned with the University." ... worked
toward these ends too in recruiting faculty
145 In the later Capen years a select group was in control of the
University ... "Let me read from this memorandum about what I
found here: 'I found some strong academic elements in the
University which exemplified Capen's conception of the
institution ..• it possessed a limited number of distinguished
faculty members whose scholarship was widely recognized; it
also included a group of scholars whose academic reputation
was mainly local. I sensed the existence, on the campus, of a
kind of informal, scholarly gentlemen's club, comprising in
intellectual aristocracy with a strong local orientation, drawn
primarily from the faculty of the College of Letters [Arts]
and Sciences.' "
McConnell page 5
SIDE II (cont'd.)
172 A professor of Economics or Business Administration asked a
favor ... the answer had to be no ... discusses the matter with
Lester Anderson •.. answer still was no ..• "the day after my
resignation was announced, this professor got up a petition
to get rid of Lester Anderson" •.. Pratt offered to circulate
a counter-petition
203 "He [Pratt] was the best advisor in the whole institution"
206 Too many departments offered Ph.D's ... tried to establish interdisciplinary
programs for doctoral degrees to alleviate pressure
on any one department ... Dr. Pratt, as Graduate Dean, would not
agree to the programs, and it was given up
222 Weaknesses: •. tried to strengthen library in weak areas ... doctorates
offered in Pharmacy although the school was not sufficiently
staffed for that purpose ... "the doctoral program was supported
by stipends for doctoral students in the School's budget; I got
nowhere with Dean Lemon, so once I just cut all those student
stipends out of the budget ... he simply went downtown ... and ...
came back with enough money to restore the student stipends."
255 "Under Dean Lemon the faculty was strengthened somewhat"
259 The sciences needed strengthening ... "Chemistry was in fair
condition and had a pretty adequate library, Physics had some
good, young people but not enough, Engineering wasn't approved
by the accrediting agency"
275 " ... the situation in Engineering, I suspect, reflected the lack
of aggressive and systematic financial development ... they
should never have gone into engineering without enough money
to support it adequately" ... also ... "there were difficulties •..
with the leadership of the dean: which was "changed under my
successor [Furnas]; incidentally, changed mainly by Lester
Anderson."
296 [McConnell] has not systematically followed the University's
development ... heard things through Anderson or Claude [Puffer] ...
"had some connection with the appointment of Meyerson as Chancellor"[
president]
306 Received a call asking why Meyerson had not been named Chancellor
at Berkeley, since he had been acting Chancellor ... "the man who
picks up the pieces usually doesn't get the job" ... when in
Buffalo had lunch with Knox and another committee member to discuss
Meyerson ... came to the conclusion that the committee member
was extremely negative about the appointment because Meyerson
was Jewish" ... there was a long discussion of Meyerson's abilities
and accomplishments ... "
337 "I've often wondered what happened to my credibility afterward."
344 END OF TAPE

Transcript:

McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] TAPE 1 SIDE 1 BKS: This interview with Dr. T.R. McConnell is taking place on May 3, 1979 at the University at Buffalo Archives. Interviewer is Brenda Shelton. Dr. McConnell, could we start out by talking a little bit about how you came to the University? How did that all start? TRM: Well, I think I covered that in this memorandum which I turned in. And maybe you could get it from that. But in general I might say that to the invitation to come to the University for a discussion of the matter of possible appointment came "out of the blue." I didn't know anybody here and I have no idea how my name was secured. I've never asked. And as I said in this memorandum, I talked to various people. I said if I could be helpful in suggesting candidates for them, I'd be glad to do it. And went on back to Minnesota and forget it. Then I had a letter from Mr. Knox saying that I really hadn't spent enough time to find out about the University while I was here. Wouldn't I come back? And stay long enough to get some notion of the nature of the institution. And so I did. And in due course I was offered the position. BKS: So you really don't know what drew the attention of Mr. Knox and others to you in the first place? TRM: No. BKS: What had you heard about the University of Buffalo before you came here? TRM: Very little. I can't remember that I knew anything in particular about it. I'm sure I knew about it as a university in this part of the world, but .•. but certainly nothing in any specific sort. BKS: You hadn't known Chancellor Capen? TRM: I've never known Chancellor Capen, no. But I'm glad to say in this connection that I had some part in getting his papers published. While I was Chancellor. BKS: Let me approach it from the other side a little bit. Why did you decide to come? You didn't know much about the university. What decided you? TRM: Well, um ... its a little hard to remember just why I came. I had been offered some presidencies. But it was generally uninteresting. But I had the feeling that what I had done as Dean of the College of Science, Literature and Arts at the University of Minnesota was useful at that period, but I have a strong feeling that different times call for different people. In administrative positions. Its very hard for people to learn new lines and to take new roles in a new scenario. And I felt that it was perhaps a good time for me to leave the University of Minnesota. I might say that when 1 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. (OH 20] the issue arose to whether I would resign to come here, I was offered a position of Professor in the Graduate School at Minnesota. Which would have relieved me of all administrative responsibilities. I was told I could do just what I wanted to do. I could teach, I could do research, I do consulting, I could do anything that I chose. I couldn't accept such a position although its certainly the perfect on for an academic man, I suppose, because I felt that I was not more qualified for such an appointment than a good many of my colleagues at Minnesota. And therefore I simply couldn't assume this preferential job as it was at that moment. And the University of Buffalo it seemed to me might be a very interesting place. It had been this long in the distinguished career of Dr. Capen. But the University was badly in need of moving on. I was in a public institution. I had begun my teaching and administrative work in a private college. I was interested in private higher education. And I just thought this might be an intensely interesting place. BKS: You have anticipated a couple of my questions. I was curious as to whether you had ever had prior experience with a private university. Apparently ... TRM: Well, as I've pointed out in that paper, a copy of which I just gave to archivist. When I was graduated from Cornell College which is a small liberal arts college in Iowa. I was appointed as instructor in English. Then after some period, a small short period of time I was called in an told that the Professor of Education had made a shambles of a course in Introduction to Education. And they wanted me to take it over. Incidentally, that gentleman is a distinguished sociologist who has recently retired from UCLA. And I did and I found it a fascinating book. Later I was told the same thing about the course in Introduction to Psychology. And I had taken all the courses in the Psychology Department. So they asked me to reorganize the first course in Psychology. Go ahead which I did. To make a long story short, that's the reason I became and Educational Psychologist. But after that time I was asked to Dean of the College. And I was Dean of the College when I left for Minnesota. BKS: So you had been in the private sector? TRM: And I'm ... (?] ... life member of the Board of Trustees for the institution. BKS: That's still far different of course from private urban institution. TRM: Yes. Very different. This was a college of 750 students. The happiest period in my life I might say. BKS: What did you see as your major ... your goals when you first came? How did you envision your role? TRM: Well, as pointed out in the memorandum, a copy of which I'll 2 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] give you if you'd like to have it. I'm sure the archivist won't object. First job was to put the house in financial order because I was ... although I was told I would have a balanced budget. And by the way I didn't come in until the. end of the summer. I discovered that they simply balanced the budget by writing up student tuition. And the students didn't appear in that number. So that my first job was to do something to manage the financial difficulties. And I think we ended the year with a deficit of $12,000 or something like that. My ... that was the immediate problem. Which was only symptomatic of the fundamental financial problem of the university. And I had to devote a good deal of time not actually soliciting funds for the university, but getting an organization established that would strengthen the ties of the institution to its city and its region. And to use a more intimate relationship of the two as a means of both financial and moral support for the institution. And so I made various adaptations and new developments in the organization with this in mind. BKS: Obviously, those ... TRM: May I add ..• just add one more. Because I wasn't interested just in the financial affairs of the institution. There were here a few distinguished scholars. Distinguished in the academic world. And you named one awhile ago. Professor Pratt was one of those. The number was relatively small. There were other scholars whose reputation was well founded but it was largely a local reputation. And one of my primary purposes was to lay the foundation and that's all one can do in a short period of time for doing ..• for strengthening the intellectual life of the institution and particularly of the faculty. The development of research and scholarship and intellectual life of the institution. To which Chancellor Capen said was the primary purpose of the university. But that's ... that's what I really wanted to do. And that was one reason for example without my ever saying so that we appointed university professors. Not only to reward them for distinguished academic career but to use them as models for the rest of the faculty. This I pointed out in this memorandum, too. There was a rumor around that I wouldn't promote anybody who wasn't doing research and scholarly writing. Now that wasn't true. As Dean of Minnesota I made some promotions against the wishes of departments of people who were not distinguished research scholars, but who were distinguished teachers. And I would have done the same thing here. But I didn't say so. I decided to let the rumor stand in the hope that that would be another prod to the kind of intellectual development that I thought ought to take place here. Sorry about that long tape. 3 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] BKS: The men and in a few cases women who had been in power here before you came had been here for a long time. TRM: In the faculty you mean? BKS: Yes. And in the administration also ... both. So that it must have been difficult in many ways. Things had been going the same way for a long time. Perhaps people get set in their ways when they're in one position for a long time. Was this difficult? TRM: Yes, it was difficult. Perhaps a little more difficult than in many institutions. I think primarily because Dr. Capen was not very well in the later years of his . administration. Because his own points of view were to my mind were entirely sound and appropriate for a great university. It wasn't ... I didn't have any particular difficulties with the power structure as a matter of fact. Some of them didn't like me. Didn't like my points of view. It was quite clear. But I did everything I could to support people like Pratt and others who were doing scholarly work. Who wanted to do scholarly work. At the same time giving support to people like John Horton who lectured in Latin but who didn't write any books. As far as I remember. BKS: A few. Not ... not ... I think two. TRM: But I think there wasn't any rigid power structure that I felt was a serious obstacle. At least I can't remember now. BKS: In the financial set up which you have already talked about, was one of the problems there that there wasn't a rigid set up? That Mr. Crofts had sort of an informal arrangement with Chancellor Capen? TRM: Well, the structure ... the administrative organization was one of dual responsibility to the governing board. That is to say both Chancellor Capen and Mr. Crofts were directly responsible to the Council. And Mr. Crofts . . . in other words they were coordinate officers. And one of the conditions I made before I took the position was that this would be changed. And that the principal financial officer would be responsible to the Chancellor and only the Chancellor would be directly responsible to the governing board. BKS: Was this a problem with Mr. Crofts? TRM: Well, he remained a year as Treasurer. And I ... I accepted that without any particular concern and moved ahead. He wasn't obstructive in any particular way. I remember some occasions in which I did assert myself. The Finance Committee of the Council meeting one time asked Mr. Crofts for some financial administration. What it was I don't remember. It was the kind of information which they had every reason to ask for and which he had every reason to have at hand. Or could have secured without much difficulty. But he evaded the request for this information in a variety of ways. And I 4 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] could see he had no intention of giving it to them. So I simply spoke up and said, "Well, perhaps it will take a little time to get the information you want together. And we' 11 have it ready for the next meeting. " And I told him to get it ready. But there were very few such occasions. BKS: I'm curious about something just because I have had people allude to it. A number of times in interviews. What sort of power did Emily Webster assert? Do you know? I've had people say that she really ran the place. TRM: I'd rather not discuss this really, but ..• first of all she was very close to Mr. Crofts. And who decided what or who took the initiative on this or that; I don't know. I really didn't care. She was very friendly. She was cooperative. If I asked her for something I could get it. And so as I remember there was no contention between us. BKS: I guess as a woman and as an historian, I have become interested in these women in positions like that who have no great power as far as their title is concerned but who exert a great deal of power. And there seemed to have been a lot of them in the early part of the 20th century. And perhaps that's why I'm asking the question. Out of my own curiosity. TRM: Well, I didn't have long discussions with Mr. Crofts and I can't tell you how much he knew or what he knew about. But I should think that Miss Webster knew all that was expected from that office. I think she was competent and reasonably systematic. Now there's one thing I mentioned in memorandum and without attaching that name to it. I discovered that somebody in the Treasurer's Office was rebating the tuition of selected athletes. And I think I'm correct. I think it was Miss Webster. And I don't think anybody had given her permission to do this. Mr. Crofts might have known it and might have approved it. I can't say. But without ever asking him I can guarantee that Chancellor Capen didn't know it. Now the only ... here I might say however, and this is ... I think the only possible criticism I really ever made of Chancellor Capen for whom I had great regard. I think his attitude was that he didn't want to know anything about athletics. And if he didn't know anything about it then he wasn't responsible for it. Now to some extent I'm attributing motivation to him that maybe unfair. But at any rate, that was my conclusion. Now there ... I said that one of my very few criticisms of Dr. Capen and you could make the same criticism of many university presidents. My own attitude as long since been that if athletics are to be cleaned up the best way to do is to make the President of the institution responsible for the undesirable practices that are now and then revealed. And if he lost his job over it the world would be different. BKS: Would the pressure for this kind of athletic rebate system 5 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] have come from members of the Council do you think? TRM: Oh, not very many at any rate. There might have been a few. BKS: Or Alumni? TRM: Alumni. From the Athletic Department itself I suppose. I really don't know. BKS: There certainly were a number of influential alumni who were very much in favor of an expanded sports program. TRM: That's right and they were not very sympathetic to my administration because I didn't believe in a professional university football team. I made it quite clear. BKS: Well, you shared Dr. Capen's views there .... [laugh] ... from what I've read of his. TRM: [laugh] I took my text on this matter in the memorandum I've prepared from one of Dr. Capen's papers. [laugh] ... BKS: All of this brings up another question that you were saying that Mr. Crofts and Chancellor Capen had been coordinately responsible to the Council. To what extent did the Council run the place? TRM: Oh, to a very little extent. BKS: Was it more of an honorary kind of thing? TRM: Well, to a considerable degree. The real authority lay in the general administrative committee. You may remember that something like a third of the voting members of the Council were elected by the Alumni directly. And ... some of them were very much interested in football for example. But most of those didn't turn up on the administrative committee of the Council. They were really highly responsible and highly influential people. And I think one of the things I did not do very effectively was to educate the Council as a whole with respect to the affairs of the institution. One of the ••. I think one of the most important functions of the university president is to educate the members of the governing board. But you see it was a large council. And I was busy with all kinds of things. And although I use to think about it and worry about, I didn't spend enough time with this. Again, the general administrative committee was different. They met once a week. Or once a month, excuse me. And were privy to most things. I tried to keep them reasonably well informed with respect to what was going on at the University beyond whatever formal action I wanted them to take. Or they wanted to take. So I think they were reasonably well informed. Mr. Knox I kept informed very closely. And I've said in this memorandum again, he was a remarkable Chairman of a governing board. He understood university affairs almost intuitively. I had nothing but support from him. I asked him frequently for his point of view for advice, for counsel which he never expected me to take unless I chose to do so. I think that expresses it 6 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] reasonably well. BKS: Of course there were some members who were in effect permanent on the Council. Mr. Knox among them. Other came and went particularly the Alumni representatives. TRM: Yes. BKS: Now Mr. Osborn was another was he not? TRM: Mr. Osborn was Vice Chairman at least during a part of the time I was Chancellor. And whatever his private sentiments were I really don't know, but at least he was very supportive. Who is the man in Philosophy who got in trouble with the American Activities Committee? BKS: Dr. Parry? Dr. Parry. TRM: Dr. Parry. When the faculty made a recommendation with respect to the Parry case.· And· I decided to follow the faculty recommendation. I asked Dr .... I asked Mr. Knox and Mr. Osborn to have lunch with me. And I started to tell them the history of the case. And what the faculty proposed. Halfway through that Mr. Knox interrupted and said, "Well, you want to keep him, don't you?" And Mr. Osborn I remember saying, and I had ... incidentally, I had explained that if we did not follow the faculty recommendation I was sure there would be an extremely qifficult relationship between the Chancellor and faculty and the Council in fact. And Mr. Osborn spoke up to say, "Well, I'm on the Board of Trustees of another university in which the faculty and the president are at odds and I don't want anymore of that." And that settled the question. That short luncheon period of the Parry case. BKS: How fortunate. Because there must have been a good deal of pressure from the community, Buffalo as a whole, to get rid of that Communist. TRM: Yes. I didn't mention the Parry case in this memorandum mainly because I didn't have any papers at hand. And Dr. Lester Anderson who read my memorandum, I asked him to check it for accuracy, thinks I should have added something. BKS: Well, its something I would like you to talk about a little bit if you would be willing too? TRM: You want to? BKS: Yes. TRM: Well ... END OF TAPE 1 SIDE 1 BEGIN TAPE 1 SIDE 2 BKS: Alright. TRM: What I say about the Parry case is subject to correction because I have not had a chance today to look at the papers and I expect to do so if I can get the time. But let me say 7 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] that the UnAmerican Activities Committee had ... or perhaps I should say the Chairman of the UnAmerican Activities Committee had been extremely critical of the university and college faculty people as you well remember. And I thought it would be extremely unusual if we didn't have some problem. Most universities of any consequence did have a problem. And I decided that it would be far better to have a policy established in advanced of a particular case. So I appointed a Faculty Committee to recommend a policy with respect to such a matter if a faculty member were called before the UnAmerican Activities Committee and admitted membership of the communist party or something related to that that might cause a great deal of criticism. I tried to appoint to this committee people who were not extremely conservative. Neither I suppose extremely radical members of the faculty. But a judicious group of people, highly respected by their fellows and with high integrity and commitment to academic freedom. And I don't remember the membership of the committee. Neither do I remember the Chairman, I'm sorry to say. This committee did outline a policy. The details of which I don't remember. But in general I think the policy stated that if a member of the faculty was called before the UnAmerican Activities Committee he should not plead the Fifth Amendment, but if he had been a member of the Communist party to say so. Or if he was still a member of the Communist party he should say so. And that this we thought would be consistent with the integrity and openness that might be expected of a member of the university faculty. Parry was called before the committee, plead the Fifth Amendment, and so violated the advise of the faculty committee. I said go back and minute and say ... the faculty report was submitted to the General Administrative Committee which approved it. Then I called the faculty ... a meeting. And told and read as I remember, either read or distributed, the faculty statement. And stated that it had been submitted to the General Administrative Committee and approved. There were members of the faculty who were extremely critical of my procedure in this matter. Because I had gone to the General Administrative Committee without bringing the report of the committee, the faculty committee, to the faculty. And I remember the Dean of the School of Education making an extremely critical speech from the floor. But at any rate, the document prevailed. Then there were two possible procedures. One was to have the Chancellor appoint a special committee to hear the case. The other was for the, I think it was called the Executive Committee of the College Faculty to hear the case. I asked the Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences if that committee wished to hear the case. And said that if it didn't, then I would appoint a committee 8 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] to do so. It chose to hear the case. I think quite appropriately because it wanted to assert its responsibility I think, or to maintain its responsibility. This was a long hearing at which Mr. Parry admitted he had been a member of the Communist party. He admitted it freely to this committee. Although he refused to do so to the Congressional Committee. That he had left the party. This committee met day after day. I remember that it met at time when I should have been writing a commencement speech. I told Mr •••• Professor Parry that I didn't like the idea of having counsel at the meetings because that made it seem far more formal than I thought it might be ..• wise stand. But that if he wanted to decline to comment on any question before seeing his own counsel privately, he would have every right to do and we would reserve by the committee the same right. There were no difficulties whatever. All I want to say is that I ••• and other members of the committee felt it was a very unpleasant occasion because we were digging into man's soul. And that's the kind of thing most of us hate to do. Incidentally, I might say, I came to the conclusion that my home telephone was tapped by the FBI during this period. And members of the committee were sometimes inclined to call me at home to comment on something that had been taken place or might take place the next day or something. And I finally asked the committee not to call me by telephone but to come to the office to talk to me. BKS: Those were unpleasant times. TRM: And I •.• you can find the decision that was made which was approved by the General Administrative Committee. I was in touch constantly with the Secretary of the Association of University Professors in Washington. Who by the way had been an old teacher of political science of mine. Himstead, Ralph . Himstead. Because I wanted to be absolutely sure that there would be no question whatever about procedure. And I think there was never any question about procedure. The solution by the way was very close to the one the, Fury, F-u-r-y, I think the name was case at Harvard. For which Harvard got public commendation but we didn't get public commendation. I' 11 just close by saying that there was a faculty reception for us when we left Berkley and one of the first people through the line was Professor Parry. The decision in his case was to revoke his tenure, but to leave him on the staff. And to have him go through the same procedure, evaluation and recommendation for tenure. It was my successor who underwent certain circumstances or on whose recommendation are •.• just when I don't remember, restored his tenure. That's all I remember. I'm hoping to read the papers this afternoon •... [laugh] ••. BKS: Well, your comments at the beginning about the role that Mr. Knox played; that's very interesting. Because obviously, had 9 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] you not had anyone of authority on the Council supporting your position and supporting your position in the community there could have been a far more serious problem. I think. Between the University and town ... [?] ... TRM: That's right. And I realize that there would be a great deal of public criticism of our decision. Mr. Kirchhofer was a member of the Council. The Buffalo Evening News. And I decided, although I usually didn't do this sort of thing, to go on telling him what the decision had been and telling him a little more about what I thought the essential reasons were. And simply saying that I realize that he would make whatever comments he chose. But that support would be very helpful. He wrote an editorial about it in which he disagreed with the decision, but went on to say at the end of the editorial that the only body that had the right to make the decision, that is to say the Council or General Administrative Committee hadn't made it. And that I appreciated at least. But I regret to say that I didn't realize that the ... is this Erie County? Erie County American Legion was to meet the day or so after the announcement of the decision was made. And we were denounced by the American Legion. But that was all in the course of a day anyhow. BKS: You have been touching here on the community. Obviously, the community has to play a certain role in a private, urban university that is supported financially by that community. Would you like to comment at all on that interrelationship between the University and Buffalo as a whole? TRM: Well, I think the few financial, formal financial campaigns conducted by the University have been conducted by members of the Council. Mr. Cooke for example. You I'm sure have this history. It is my understanding that Dr. Capen had an agreement when he became Chancellor that he would not be responsible for financial promotion. So there was a very long period of time in·which there had been no systematic community cultivation. Either of finance or support. And so some of the things that I did during my relatively short administration were designed to strengthen the relationships between the University and the community. One of them for example was to appoint a liaison committee. Which would work with industry to development of conferences, · research relationships, translation of research from faculty at the university that might be of value and interest to industry and commerce in this area. In general to promote these relationship because some kind of basic foundation had to be established. It wasn't there. The same thing was very true was true with other than financial matters in the university. I don't think the university had ever penetrated certain elements of the community to speak of. Although when 10 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] I came here having learned to pronounce Scandinavian names in Minnesota, I had to learn to pronounce Polish and Italian names in Buffalo. There were a great many Polish and Italian students. But I don't think that the community ... those two communities had much relationship with the university. Interestingly enough, if I may comment on this. These are people who are likely to be interested in music for example. I discovered when I went to the symphony concerts and there were five symphony orchestras here that you couldn't find these minority members of the community in the audience. It didn't touch them. It didn't reach them. And one of the reasons I wanted to establish dormitories was to bring life to the campus. Not only to give students a sense of community and membership in a university, but to bring people in the community to the university for lectures and concerts. Now we had to have many major things downtown because we didn't have auditorium large enough, other facilities for it. But it was just out here on the edge and very few people really knew very much about it. BKS: One of the things that I have found interesting is that the men and women who supported the university through the years - financially and in other ways, are not the people who go there. or send their children there. TRM: Well, I think that's often true. This . . . first of all, people like to send their children away from home. And children like to go away from home. I wanted to send my children away from home to college and did. I shouldn't say I sent them. They chose where to go. So that I think it was reasonably normal. But I'm afraid of a kind of patronizing attitude toward the university in influential members of the community. Now there were very many exceptions to the fact. But there was no sense of intimacy. I think you could find people who are students of higher education, who would say there ought not to be very much intimacy between a community and a university. And I can understand their reasons. They fear control. They fear too much influence. They fear even an influence on the educational policy and programs. BKS: Perhaps that influence and control did exist when it came to some of the professional schools. TRM: Well, it might, but then I think not too much. Let me mention the law school. When I came here I was visited by some members of the legal community who objected strenuously that the law school spent its time patterning itself after the Harvard Law School and was utterly uninterested in the Bar in Erie County. And they thought this was inappropriate. And as a matter a fact I think as time went on the law school did take an interest in the legal affairs of the profession and of the community and so forth. And did establish closer 11 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. (OH 20] relationships professionally with them. Whether I had any influence in that I really don't know or don't remember. It doesn't make any difference because I think the fact developed. The relationships between the medical school and the local hospitals were varied and complicated and I don't think I have the background at the moment to make much comment on that. BKS: There certainly was a lot of pressure to have the med schools stay near the general hospitals. TRM: That's right. And if you look at my memorandum you'll see what I said about that. I was offered a million dollars one night in a Buffalo club toward the total sum we had to raise to build a new medical school if I put it across from the General Hospital. That's in the memorandum also. BKS: Well, certainly many of the faculty at both the Dental School and the Medical School were practicing Buffalo physicians. TRM: That's right. And one of the difficulties I had, this goes back to what needed to be done academically and intellectually in the University. One of the difficulties of the Medical School was it had a pretty good clinical staff but it was not adequate in the medical sciences. And this was one of the jobs I had. Stockton Kimball, Dr. Stockton Kimball was a cooperative, intelligent and able person. But of course, he was in the middle of all of the struggle for power and position among the hospitals, medical groups, the city. Did remarkably well. In the memorandum again, I have said that I discovered that in the Dental School most of the faculty members who were practicing dentists in most cases, relatively very small continuing full time staff in the Dental School were graduates of the University of Buffalo. And the fathers were succeeded by their sons. And I called the Dental Dean in one time and discussed this with him and said, "This must cease. You have to bring people with other backgrounds, from other institutions." He said, "There aren't any to speak of that we can call upon." I said, "Oh, well look around harder. " It scared him to death. But you know these are not things that are particularly to only Buffalo. This sort of thing happens everywhere. Some places more intensely than others obviously. BKS: There is a philosophical problem here perhaps. The University of Buffalo, one of its purposes is to serve the Buffalo community. And that means in turn I think, that Buffalo should have . . . the community of Buffalo should have some input into what the University does. And yet you have to balance that with the need of the University to remain independent. Its almost a balancing act. TRM: Well, that's one reason I established the Liaison Committee. Incidentally, the young man whose is its first director I 12 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] think is still here. From the Engineering School. I wanted a means of two way communication. And interest and cooperation without the danger of control. And I thought this device might do that. Now I haven't any history of it so I don't know what materialized, but I think it was going along reasonably well when I left. Buffalo is a curious case. Or at least was in my time. The ... many of the major industrial firms in Buffalo had their central offices, their main offices in other locations. And that made this a particularly difficult problem. You could get some contribution let us say from Westinghouse, but not as much as if Westinghouse had been located in Buffalo. BKS: Or Bethlehem Steel or ... TRM: That's right. And this is one of the reasons that I concluded before I left, although I don't remember even saying anything much about it, that the future of Buffalo as a private institution was doubtful. BKS: That was something I was curious about. Had you even before you left here had any thought of it UB going state? Merging with the State University? TRM: No. BKS: This had never been discussed or ... hinted at or anything? TRM: No. And I don't remember whether I ever said this to people of any consequence or not. But I ... BKS: I'm curious as to how far back that idea goes. TRM: I don't know. But you see the lack of financial promotion over a long period of time was devastating to the institution. And to make up the difference would have been extremely difficult. Now there are a few cases in the country where the differences was made up. One of the was stanford University which is a case of miraculous financial and academic development in the fifteen years I've been ... er, more than that now, in the years I've been in Berkley. I've seen Stanford come up to one of the relatively small number of extremely distinguished private institutions. But Buffalo lacked that foundation on which to build. BKS: The urban, private university is sort of a unique beast. TRM: That's right. BKS: There aren't too many of them when you look around the country. TRM: And I suppose Harvard has practically no relationship with the surrounding community. BKS: No, I don't think of that somehow as .•. TRM: But I think a state university probably has more responsibility to ... and a much wider area than a private urban university. I don't mean to say that you could not ignore Buffalo and the Niagara Frontier, but nonetheless this institution must have wider reference than that, certainly. 13 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] Its interesting that at the University of California they're having a considerable argument now about agricultural research at the University which the agricultural unions now declare was ... primarily to support agribusiness. Which is nothing new. I made a speech at Berkley about that a long time ago. For example, they invented a machine to pick tomatoes. And in order to that successfully they had to develope a new strain of tomatoes with thick skins. If you eat tomatoes in California you've got to peel them. So there are many aspects of a public institution's relationship to the public it serves. It has tended to ignore certain groups in the past which it can no longer ignore and to favor certain groups which it can no longer just favor. So I would think that while the University needs to be sensitive to the research needs, to the developmental needs of industry and commerce in its area; that it has to be extremely careful to devise methods of doing this without succumbing to undue control. Goodness knows that's an obvious statement. And its hard to do. But it has to be done. Its a very nice bit of maneuver to maintain the integrity of the institution and yet to serve its community in an appropriate way. And what I've said about businesses and industry ought to be said about cultural activities in the community as well. The University when I came here, I think was un-thought of as a cultural element in the university ... of of the community. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Remember its been 25 years since I've left here. So my memory may be pretty faulty. But I can't remember many cases. Can you? BKS: No, no, I can't. END OF TAPE 1 SIDE 2 BEGIN TAPE 2 SIDE 1 BKS: As I was about to say, the community puts all these pressures on the college and obviously would like to have some control. Within the University there are so many groups who want to exert control also. There's the faculty in the case of the University of Buffalo, the Council, the Administration, the Chancellor, the students. These must also force the Chancellor to manuever, to use your words. At times the faculty ... the interests of the faculty and the interests of the Administration may not be identical. TRM: I'm going to discuss that tomorrow noon, as a matter of fact, to some degree. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word manuever because this suggests something that isn't entirely open to all concerned. And my last paragraph tomorrow has to do with openness in administration. But one of the 14 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] President's responsibility is to mobilize the efforts of these constituencies toward University purposes which are consistent with the major functions of the institution. He has to do this of course with an enormous amount of assistance from all the parties concerned, representatives of all the parties concerned. And incidentally, the internal power of the University is being redistributed. I wrote a monograph five years ago I guess called The Redistribution of Power in American Higher Education. And I confined it to the internal problems rather than to all the external influences that are playing upon the institutions today from the state government, from the federal government, from all kinds of agencies on the outside. But internally the power is being redistributed. And here I think the President has to play a kind of pathetic role, he has to play a leadership role, he has to play a role of education, of cooperation and consultation, of mobilization. Easy to say, extremely difficult to do. [laugh] ... I don't think that's been a very good answer for you. For example, I should say tomorrow noon among other things that the of decision-making is moving upward in the institutions and in higher education generally. That is to say what was decided at some local point in an institution can no longer be decided at that point. But that the decisions are moving upward. For example, you've got a redistribution of faculty according to fields of study and research in universities today. Its extremely difficult to do. The clientele is now wanting more vocational and professional education of certain kinds. Which makes it extremely difficult to redistribute the sources to take advantage of this. And I think this is one of the reasons why the Central Administration and perhaps appropriate sections of the governing board will have to exercise more authority and discretion than they have in the past. And this will mean objections from many faculty which really wouldn't make the decisions anyhow because it doesn't possess all the information necessary and doesn't want to make the tough decisions when they have to be made. But they will object now as to the fact that the decisions are made above. So you will find I think that to ... not only is there more participation in governmental affairs for example by students, and the faculty is demanding more participation, and you will find that governing boards under pressure from community forces will be demanding more participation. Yet somehow or other all these interests and demands have to be somehow reconciled in the service of the institution. I'm glad I'm not a University President. BKS: You were talking about the different groups that exert control or try to. One group we haven't talked about at all so far 15 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] are the students. Either your opinion of them, of the students of the University when you were here or their attempts to exert ... have some voice in matters ... [?can't understand her here] ... ? TRM: Well, I should say there was very little of that at the University of Buffalo between 1950 and 1954. I tried to keep in touch with students. But incidentally, Dorothy Haas was the best person I've ever known to provide a link between the Administration and the students. She was an extremely skillful and able person at this. You know who she is? BKS: Yes. TRM: Yes. I don't mean that the Dean of Students whom I appointed was ... was not able to, but Dorothy knew how to get to the students. There wasn't any pressure for a decision-making on fundamental, university or academic affairs. I remember that some group of students came into see me one time, to press me for more support for athletics. Football particularly. They said, "You want to make this a greater university, don't you?" And I said, "I certainly do." "Well how can you do that without a good football team?" And I remember saying, "Have you heard of the University of Rochester over the way?" "Yes." "Well, it has a much more • . . important academic distinction that the University of Buffalo at the moment and it plays little colleges in football." So I'm not sure that there's any great correlation between football prowess and academic distinction. They took it all very well. During my first year, just before the inauguration ... my inauguration, the students wrote an extremely critical review of a book name of which I've forgotten. The review angered the Catholic community in the city. And Claude Puffer called me up one day and said, "You want to keep the good will of the religious communities in the city, don't you?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "Well, I have had calls from certain catholic clergyman who say that if you don't get that retracted, the Bishop will not turn up at your inauguration." So he said you better do something. BKS: This was in the student newspaper? The review? TRM: Yeah. So I got the editor in and maybe some others, I've forgotten, and we talked this over. And the editor said, "Well, we don't think there ought to be any disharmony at this occasion. Why don't we write something that will take the sting away?" I said, "Okay." Well, the more I began to think about that ... the more I thought about that I should say, the more I thought that it was perfectly legitimate for students to have written this criticism. So I called up the young editor and said, "Forget it. You don't have to do anything." Incidentally, the Bishop turned up and made the invocation and was as friendly as could be. On the other hand, student 16 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. (OH 20] publications were a public relations problem. Arid I don't remember the specific instances to support that position. And I thought a good many of the publications were irresponsible. But I didn't see any way to move in on this without being accused of suppression or censorship or what not. But it was after a particular case, which I've forgotten, that gave me an opening to appoint a student faculty committee on publications to review the whole question. Both of freedom and responsibility. Now that's another case of student involvement, but the number of instances in those days was relatively small. BKS: Was there any student pressure during the Parry case? TRM: During what? BKS: The Parry case? TRM: None whatever. That I remember. Now you have to remember this is 25 years ago and I may have forgotten. But I can't remember any. BKS: When you placed us against the background of the McCarthy era, so-called McCarthy era, certainly there could have been problems. TRM: That's right. But you ... and I incidentally, I was tested out on academic freedom after I came in various ways. Details of which I don't remember. But I'm ... I think that the faculty felt that nobody could be as responsible as Chancellor Capen with respect to the matter. So a conference was organized soon after I came having to do with civil liberties and academic freedom and so on. And I'm pretty sure that was organized for my benefit so to speak. Incidentally, I had agreed to lecture at the University of Minnesota and I missed the conference ... (laugh] ... simply left a paper to read by somebody else for me. But I know of no exception on Dr. Capen's part to a clean cut view of academic intellectual freedom in the University. And I'm not surprised I was tested in various ways. I think I came out alright. BKS: I suppose whenever a person comes in to replace a man who has been in an institution for so long and was so widely admired, its a hard act to follow. And almost inevitably some of the people are going to look for trouble with the successor. TRM: Well, I didn't have any. BKS: You mention here of their setting up this committee. Isn't that sort of expecting you not to be as perfect as was Capen? TRM: Oh, sure. BKS: That's the kind of thing I mean. TRM: I think that's understandable. I think that Dr. Capen is remarkable in this regard. And I can understand why they thought nobody could be that good. Because this . . . I came in a period when there were all kinds of threats to academic freedom. 17 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. (OH 20] BKS: And in a time of transition for the University of Buffalo, too. TRM: That's right. Now there were a few occasions, but not very many of pressure from the community. Linus Pauling was invited to • . . by the Chemical Association of the Niagara Frontier, whatever its name was I don't remember, to come here at the University and give a lecture. And I had letters from officials of the American Legion demanding that his invitation be withdrawn. And I said, "You know he's going to speak about chemistry, don't you? Do you have to worry about the chemists who are employed by the corporations of the Niagara Frontier being made into Communists by a chemical lecture?" "Well, we don't want him around under any circumstances. 11 The only time that Mrs. McConnell or I have ever asked for social publicity was when asked the ... when we told the newspaper • . . the local newspaper that we were having a dinner in honor of Linus Pauling while he was here. So we did. Well there were a few occasions like that. But not very many. I think the reason was simply that Dr. Capen had so established the University's independence with respect to these men, that they've given up. BKS: The community was use to this sort of behavior. TRM: They were use to it. They tried me out in a few ways and generally gave up. BKS: And obviously, some of the people on the Council were in full support of the academic freedom policy also. TRM: That's right. I'm sure a lot of things happened around here that Mr. Knox didn't like. But I've never heard him even suggest it. Never once. And every now and then our great and good friend Professor Pratt would write letters to the newspapers here that got me in trouble. Well, that's hardly the word. That brought criticism let's say. I don't think I was in trouble. Cause they knew he was a man of very great integrity. BKS: This ties in with something else you had mentioned earlier. The problem with the Catholic bishop. And apparently there had been from way back in the 20's, some problems along these lines between the Catholic community and UB. Accusations come up over and over again that UB was anti-Catholic. Was this one of the problems with Dr. Pratt also? He certainly got into a long controversy with some people at Canisius over the responsibility for Pearl Harbor, I remember. TRM: No, I don't remember anything involving Professor Pratt. Although I do remember kidding him about teaching at what's the Catholic university in Indiana? Notre Dame (laugh] I asked him if he had been censored in his teaching at Notre Dame. He said no, had no trouble at all. There was ... I think the University was pinched now and then by the competition of religious groups in the community. For 18 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] example, when I came here I found that members of the religious groups had campus offices at which their representatives could discuss matters with students. I also discovered however, that they had begun to offer courses on the campus to students. These were obviously non-credit courses. This it seemed to me was not consistent with the non-sectarian private status of the University. And I was a bit troubled by this. So I got in touch with the modern rabbi, whose name I've forgotten. And said, "I was a little disturbed by this and I thought it might be too much contention and competition. In the end might just irritate a lot of people." He said, "Never mind, I think these people ought to have the students meet in their own religious plans and I' 11 take care of it. " And he did. And I found he was an extremely valuable consultant. But once I. remember a rabbi came into see me and criticized the University strenuously for lack of communication, cooperation with the Jewish community. And I remember saying to him finally, "Well, you know, I consult frequently with Rabbi so and so." He said, "That's just the trouble." He was a member of the Orthodox group and he didn't like the fact that I was consulting a modern rabbi. You know, these ... when you hear me talk about it may sound like important issues or events, but they really weren't. They're in the day-by-day business of the institution which has some relations with the community. BKS: But they are examples of how the President of a university is bound to antagonize one group by pleasing another. TRM: That's right. You know move straight ahead always remembering what the University's function and position is. And you don't try to make enemies. You try to make friends but you don't compromise the position. And of course you do make enemies now and again in the process. BKS: You mentioned earlier Mr. Kirchhofer at the Buffalo Evening News. Generally speaking what sort of relationship was there between the University and the press? I can put it another way. Do you think the two major newspaper in Buffalo, the Courier Express and the News, treated the University fairly in such matters as the Parry case or other situations? TRM: Well, I think the University was, and I can't give you very many concrete examples if any at the moment, was now and then pinched between the two. And I should think that would be inevitable. The Courier partly because of this competition with the News was tended ... was likely to be more critical of the University than the News. BKS: The News had always had a rather close relationship through Mr. Butler and Mr. Kirchhofer. TRM: Yes. And incidentally, that was the case in which without any overt action the University had to maintain its independence. 19 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20) Mr. Kirchhofer is sort of a taciturn man. He was a little difficult to develope a close relationship with, although he was extremely courteous and pleasant and open to a discussion with me. But the ..• my assistant, Administrative Assistant, who was with Chancellor Capen for about 25 years, would protect me from calls from the Courier let's say during the day. So what the Courier started to do was call me at night at home. Which was a little difficult. So I had a country place without any telephones. . .. [laugh) ... And we had a kind of family room in the basement where we couldn't hear the telephone, so I could get away from it. But many a night after I'd gone to bed, I got a call from the Courier. Again, BKS: This is part of ... TRM: Just one of the annoyances in life. BKS: I remember some problems over the building program while you were at the University of Buffalo. Some controversy over where the buildings were going to be and how they were going to be designed. TRM: Well, I don't remember the problems of location except for the Medical School which I've discussed with you. But we had an extremely able and aggressive Chairman of the Council's Committee on Buildings and Grounds. I guess that was its name. One Karr Parker. And it was extremely difficult to get sufficient faculty input in the planning of the buildings. For example, there were many problems with the School of Engineering building. That were due to undesirable construction elements. And I remember one of the difficulties with the Medical building was to get more than one elevator in the building. He didn't like elevators in academic buildings. But he discovered that if we had only one elevator not only would people who were alive move up in the elevator, but they might up with a corpse to the anatomy lab. BKS: That was a good argument. TRM: So we got two elevators in that building. But it is extremely difficult to get adequate faculty input. And I finally just insisted that he could not complete any plans until the faculty had had a chance to go over the and make reasonable adjustments. And this was true with the Medical building. So ... BKS: Once again you were sort of in the middle with the faculty. TRM: N-a-yeah-ah. But not very badly. Now one of the ... I'm not sure I ought to say this because I'll find difficulty in finding any records to support it. But one of the principal difficulties during Mr. Parker's regime was that ... to get a contracts allotted to the lowest bidders. He was inclined to take the bids and then negotiate the contract with one of the bidders. Which I didn't like very well. He had a yacht or 20 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] some kind of a boat in which he went to Florida in winter and ... while he was in Florida one winter the Advice Chairman of the Committee whose name I've forgotten. One of the finest people on the Council. Serving as Chairman of the committee. And there was some construction matter that had to be submitted to bids and we gave the contract to the lowest bidder. And we heard from Mr. Parker from Florida, both of us , about this. Now I don't think there were any extremely serious problems involved. At any rate, few contractors made a protest over the matter. But it was a matter of considerable significance. Which I found very difficult. And which if I remember correctly, I didn't even bother to discuss with Mr. Knox. I decided . . . might as well fuss with Mr. Parker and not worry him. BKS: And it all worked out alright? TRM: Well, I don't think the Medical building was too well constructed, but that's another story. BKS: I've been asking a lot of questions. Are there any areas where you would like to say something that I haven't touched on? TRM: Well, I made some notes about things I hadn't discussed in this memorandum, which was really a reply to the questions of the doctoral student. Although I added some things which she had not. END OF TAPE 2 SIDE 1 BEGIN TAPE 2 SIDE 2 TRM: No, I don't think so. There might be some more examples of some minor difficulties with elements in the community, but I don't think they would add anything to what we've already talked about. BKS: Well, its up to you. Although its an interesting part of the history of this university, I think, is its interaction with the community. TRM: Well, I could give you an example or two. A member of the city government when we were building the Medical School came to see me to say that his son had not been admitted to the Medical School. And he thought this had been unfair. And he called my attention to the fact that the city sewer came only to the corner of the campus beyond the Medical School. That when the Medical School was built $75,000 would have to be expended to extend the sewer and that if his son were not admitted to the Medical School, he would see to that the city didn't provide the $75,000. All I said was that I would look into the matter. And so I went to the Chairman of the Committee on Admissions at the Medical School and asked him 21 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] about this particular student. I didn't tell him what I had heard from his father, but said I had had a protest. And I wanted to know whether or not the investigation of his qualifications had been thorough and unprejudiced. He reported that certainly had been fair. That he simply didn't meet the necessary requirements in certain regards. And I reported that back to the boy's father and said I'm sorry, but I accept and will support the action of the Committee on Admissions in the Medical School. Not long after that I got a telephone call or a visit, I've forgotten which, from a member of the Council who told me that it was absurd for the University to have to pay for the extension of the sewer and that he was going to talk to the Dean of the Medical School. I said, you can't talk to the Dean of the Medical School about this I'm sorry to say. It's not your prerogative. Why he said, "What do you mean? I can talk to anybody I please, this is a free country." I said, "You can talk to him about the weather, but you can't talk to him about admission to the Medical School. I simply will not tolerate that kind of pressure on a member of the faculty. You can beat me about it all you want, but you can't go to the Dean." Its my business to see that, first of all, the Deans and his committee have been careful about evaluation of the candidate and if he has then its my business to protect him. If he hadn't been, I would have asked him to review it. Well he said I'm not going to be told whom I can talk.to so I suppose he went to the Medical Dean. At any rate, I called the Dean quickly and said you're going to hear about this from so and so. I told him what I had said and so on. This is the day by day business. And I never told anybody around the University about it. I just went off to Vancouver, I remember, to make a speech and have a little vacation that summer expecting to have to find $75,000. And when I got back I discovered the city was going to put in the sewer. BKS: Other than that, which can hardly be called direct political pressure, what sort of relationship was there with the city of Buffalo? Did you have to have many dealings with them? TRM: No. Very few, I should say. . .• [Our visit just this year] . . . an interesting episode. A professor-- which department of the University I don't remember- wanted to study the acculturation of the Polish community of Buffalo. And he came to see me and said he'd appreciate it if I would arrange an opportunity for him to meet the Mayor who is from the Polish community and certain other members of the City fathers, and let him present his case. So I arranged a luncheon and he presented his case. And what he said to them was essentially that he thought it would be very helpful to them politically if he made this study because they would find out a great deal 22 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. (OH 20] about the attitude and backgrounds, the interests and activities of the Polish community and this might be very helpful in their election campaign ... [laughs] ... The Mayor spoke up and said, 'sorry, we don't need any help on the political problems of dealing with the Polish community,' ... [laughs] and that was the end of the luncheon. (laughs] ... But I would say that the relationships were not unusually difficult. I think the sort of thing you might expect. Any more than I would say relationships with respect to athletics weren't anything more than one might expect if he didn't believe in buying athletes. I spent far too much time with athletic memorandums because the young woman wanted to know about it. BKS: Was there ever any pressure here talking about the Mayor wanting his son in Medical School ... TRM: Not .. it wasn't the Mayor. It was somebody else. BKS: Somebody inside the administration, excuse me. Was there ever any criticism of what students were and were not let into the University on an ethnic basis or religious or color, or anything of that sort when you were here? TRM: No. Not overtly, but during those days, the University was often called "Jewbee", but that didn't worry me very much either. BKS: Well, there were very few blacks certainly at that time at the University. TRM: That's right. But there were lots of Polish students and lots of Italian students if I remember correctly. At least when I had a student reception, I had a heck of a time with the names. As I said a while ago, no I don't remember any ... BKS: And, of course, this was prior to the days of pressure about getting blacks in. TRM: Well, one of the reasons I think there was some question about, and in certain quarters .. ! don't remember any of the Council .. about residences on the campus was that it would open us up to more students from New York city and so on. BKS: Someone once mentioned to me that one of the reasons for having dormitories was to encourage more women to go to the University at Buffalo. Was there any truth in that? TRM: I honestly don't remember to what extent ... (laughs] ... that might have ... BKS: ... outside students coming here: women, families would rather have them stay in a dormitory that have to go ... " TRM: Well, I .. it could very well have been so, because there wasn't any systematic organization with respect to student residences in private homes and quarters. The Dean of Women, for example, didn't approve places where students might stay. BKS: She did earlier, in the early history. TRM: Well, she may have, but she wasn't doing it then. And that 23 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. (OH 20] was a little unusual in those days. I suppose now nobody would object; but it was different then. And so, I think probably I did have in mind providing adequate resources of this sort. Incidentally, I had a student faculty committee on the general planning of the residences. You asked me about student participation a while ago. And this annoyed the architect no end. He didn't want any students around telling him what ought to be done. But we managed to get through that alright too. And I think, as a matter of fact, the students had a good deal of influence on the resource facilities that were provided in the dormitories. BKS: That would seem to be a place where student input would make sense. TRM: Well, I think so too. Because I remembered from times past that students were usually extremely critical of the food services when we built the addition on North Union of a large dining room. I suggested to Claude ... (Puffer) ... that we get a student committee to advise on food services. So he did; and he also had a faculty committee and it made it possible for the faculty committee to eat there whenever it wished without charge for this purpose. Well, the students made a long report one time and he came into to me and, in great disgust, he said the student committee report goes on and on about too many calories--is that the right word?--and ended up by saying it wanted more potatoes, not--w.hat's the right word? Calories?--he said [laughs] , 'I'm through.' ... [laughs) ... and I said, o.k. give them some more calories for a change. But those were not very important ways in which to involve students but at least they occurred. BKS: Well, there was no pressure in your days for there to actually to be part of the administration. TRM: No. BKS: That comes later. TRM: That came later. BKS: It's a very different kind of atmosphere than it was later in the sixties. Do you have any overall view of the caliber of the student body? TRM: The caliber? BKS: When you were here? TRM: No, I don't remember enough about the .. the characteristics of students to respond to that very well. BKS: Most of them at that time were still coming from the Western New York area. TRM: Yes, and largely local area. BKS: And of course that's something dormitories would help to change. TRM: I wanted very much to expand the area served by the University and this is .. was in part, because I believed in a more 24 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. (OH 20) cosmopolitan institution, but also in part, if you recall our earlier conversation, to reduce the possible power of the urban community and expand the interests which were concerned with the University. BKS: You were aiming in that direction, also in recruiting faculty from outside the area. TRM: Yes. BKS: Making it a less parochial kind of institution. I would gather than you feel that one of the problems, at least in the later years under Chancellor Capen, was that there was a small group of faculty and maybe a few people of the community who .. it was just sort of a comfortable place that they ran and .. been here for a long time ... TRM: Well, let me read from this memorandum about what I found here: "I found some strong academic elements in the University which exemplified Capen's conception of the institution. " I had previously quoted what his conception was. "It possessed a limited number of distinguished faculty members whose scholarship was widely recognized. I also included a group of scholars whose academic reputation was mainly local. I sensed the existence on the campus of a kind of informal scholarly gentlemen's club comprising an intellectual aristocracy with a strong local orientation drawn primarily from the faculty in the College of Letters and Sciences." Is that what you meant? BKS: And these particular faculty members had contacts in the community as a whole? TRM: That's right. One of these people who was a professor of English came to me and said now if you want to meet anybody in the community, you just let me know. I thanked him. BKS: Well, that sort of thing has its strengths and its weaknesses. TRM: That's right. BKS: I assume that many of them had been here for a long time. TRM: That's right. Now again, you see, there were these people and there were also the Will Pratt's. Some very distinguished people with reputation that goes beyond the community by far. And who didn't belong to the gentlemen's club around here. Let me give you another example. There was a professor of Economics or Business Administration whose name I have forgotten, who essentially used his office as a place to arrange his consulting business. And I don't reme~ber what he wanted at one time, but the answer had to be 'no'. And I discussed it with Lester Anderson and he agreed it had to be 'no'. And I said, now Lester, he is the sort of person who will hold this against a man who conveys this decision and since I'm the guy who takes the heat around here anyhow, you let me tell him. He said, well it's my business to tell him. I said, well yes, but let me take the heat. "No" Lester 25 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] said, "I'm going to do it." And he did it. The day after my resignation was announced, this professor got up a petition to get rid of Lester Anderson because this was what I had felt, you know, would happen. The sort of thing that would happen. It was Will Pratt who came in to see me soon after that and said there's a petition going around to get rid of [laughs] ..• Lester Anderson. I said, yes, so I've heard. He said would you like me to get a counter petition going to keep Lester Anderson? I said, I am not sure that it' 11 be necessary. Why don't you keep your ear to the ground and I ' 11 keep my ear to the ground and if we think it's necessary we can do it. Well it didn't turn out to be necessary. This was the sort of thing Will Pratt would do when he thought a matter of real importance and responsibility was involved. BKS: He played quite a key role in the Perry case also I always understood. TRM: That's right. He was the best advisor in the whole institution. Now he wouldn't always do things that I would like to do. I became convinced, for example, early in the game that too many departments offered Ph.D.'s, really not yet ready to do it. And I thought one of the things that might be done was to do some interdepartmental interdisciplinary .• to devise some interdepartmental and interdisciplinary programs form doctoral degrees that wouldn't put so much pressure on any one department that would provide, for example, good background for some kinds of teaching positions. Well, Professor Pratt was Graduate Dean in those days and I couldn't sell it to him. So I gave that up, among other things [laughs] ... that I gave up and I respected his judgement. There was nothing to do. Because I couldn't have fought him anyhow. You know, he could have .. could have beat me in that game. BKS: You mentioned various departments. What do you think was the greatest weakness of the University as far as certain areas are concerned? Departments or general areas when you were here? TRM: I don't think I'd better try to do that. I knew some of the weak departments and some of the stronger departments. And, as I told you, I though we were offering doctoral degrees, in some cases, where we should not. And in this memorandum I talked about the fact that I made a, what today would seem to be a puny little special allocation of funds to the library to strengthen departments which gave doctorates and in which the library resources were insufficient. I tried to do that. There were doctorates being offered in the School of Pharmacy and I suspected that the School was not sufficiently staffed for that purpose. The doctoral program was supported by stipends for doctoral students in the departments', in the 26 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. [OH 20] school's budget. I got nowhere with Dean Lemon about the matter so once I just cut all those students' stipends out of the budget. I thought that might do it. He simply went down town and through his nice relationships with people came back with enough money to restore the student stipends ... [laughs] ... So that was another one of my failures on the academic side of the University. Amused me no end. He really beat me at the game. BKS: Well, it illustrates once more the ties between the graduate student schools--Pharmacy, Medical and so on--and the community. TRM: That's right. And I think I might go on to say that under Dean Lemon, the faculty was strengthened somewhat. Maybe that was [laughs] . . . an indirect result of my arbitrary administrative act. BKS: Apparently the sciences were an area which, partially because the United States was changing, needed strength. Certainly they were strengthened, at any rate, in the years after ... ? TRM: That's right. Chemistry was in fair condition and had a pretty adequate library. Physics had some good young people but not enough. Engineering wasn't approved by the accrediting agency. There was a good deal of ... BKS: It's interesting that in a city which is an industrial city, that there wasn't more emphasis from the community on developing that side of the University. I think it shows what you were talking about earlier. There never had been strong ties between industry and the University. TRM: And you see, also, the situation in Engineering, I suspect, reflected the lack of aggressive and systematic financial development. They should never have gone into Engineering without enough money to support it adequately. The building didn't provide the adequate academic resources. Now I don't .. ! don't feel unusually critical about that. I suppose you can start something and hope that it will be accredited and there were difficulties, as I've pointed out here, with the leadership of the Dean and that was changed under my successor. Incidentally changed mainly by Lester Anderson. But nonetheless, I think the adequate foundation financially wasn't there. BKS: So that it was •.. TRM: And it wasn't there in other cases too. BKS: So much of what you're saying here points to the takeover by the State. TRM: That's right. BKS: What do you think of it all now? TRM: I don't know very much about the University. Nobody every ... BKS: It certainly looks different, doesn't it? TRM: Nobody ever sent me the Chancellor's annual reports, for 27 McConnell, Thomas Raymond. Oral History Interview, May 3, 1979. Interviewed by Brenda K. Shelton. (OH 20] example. So .. I would see Lester now and then at a meeting or Claude or somebody and hear something. But I never really systematically followed the University's development. I had some connection with the appointment of Meyerson as Chancellor. BKS: Because you were in California. TRM: I was in California. I was called-- I don't remember by ... whether it was by Mr . Knox or. . . whether by Mr. Knox or someone else--asking why he wasn't made Chancellor at Berkeley. He was Acting Chancellor. To which my response was, well the man who picks up the pieces usually doesn't get the job. He had given me wonderful support. I happened to be in the hospital for eye surgery when the committee representing the Federal Government came by to inspect us for possible allocation of one of the research centers in higher education-- a large amount of financial support. So I dealt with the committee by telephone from the hospital about Mr. Meyerson •.. Chancellor Meyerson just went all out for us. But I was here in town for some reason. Maybe I was talking at a conference. Anyhow, Mr. Knox asked me to come to lunch with another member of the committee who I guess I'd better not name, to talk about Meyerson. And I came to the conclusion that the other member was extremely negative about the appointment because Meyerson was Jewish. As a matter of fact, it never occurred to me that he was Jewish. I hadn't thought about it. This again is something to be said in Mr. Knox's behalf. So I said .. nothing was said about a Jewish person, but there was a long discussion of Meyerson's abilities and accomplishments and so forth. And I've·often wondered what happened to my credibility afterwards ... [laughs] •.. BKS: Perhaps that's a good not to close on unless there is something else that you would like to talk about. TRM: No. I'm going to look up a few things this afternoon ... End Tape 2, Side 2 28