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Okay, I just struggle to come to grips with this. Why are black American celebrities beginning to behave this way? And more importantly, what does the black community think about this insane representation of race relations in this country?

It is such a delicate subject, but it seems that not taking this kind of banal bullsh*t head-on and calling a spade a spade is opening the door for abusive use of words about true racism and black-white relations in this country.

Perhaps most interesting about this situation is the dual minority interests involved. A gay man says a black man called him a slur. Now a black man says the gay man had him fired because he was black. Now everyone's a biggot.

WTF? Paris Hilton aside, this is some of the worst crap to come off Larry King since Cynthia McKinney (smiling in the same snide way that Washington did last night) claimed "we have a problem with racism in our government" after randomly beating on a Capitol security guard with her cell phone.

And, that's two. Okay, clearly I'm missing something as Bucko and the team here have slapped me twice for posts not meant to be offensive.

I do respect everyone's opinion on the matter, but I was not intending to incite scorn or make racist remarks in any way. Nothing about my post - including the spade reference - is racist, and should not be construed as such. Racism, in my opinion, begins with intent to discriminate and do harm, and nothing in my post was designed to do either.

I do think that this has actually addressed my question, though in a different way then I intended. Why is it that we can't have a debate about race in this country without it falling into insults about who's a bigot?

Me thinks that there is something far greater going on here that just what this thread is about. If you read many of the posts by Chap and the various threads he has started I would say that he is not racist or a bigot in any form or fashion.

There is a major problem with race in this country. Don Imus had scores of African-American activists after his head, deservedly so for his remarks. But when the prosecutor in the Duke case was proven to have totally fucked up the lives of the Duke lacrose players they sure didn't call for him to be fired. I am not sure if we will ever have common ground when race is involved. Hope so, but doubtful.

Woods

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

Fired, disbarred, whatever. The point is that those who were so quick to jump on Imus (and he most definitely deserved to be fired) were completely absent in asking for punishment on a prosecutor who took wrongful action against 3 wealthy white men based on the allegation of an African American. And since the allegations have been totally proved bogus I don't see those activists offering apologies for helping to lead the witch hunt against the Duke players.

But more importantly, this was just another example of how charged the race issue is.

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

And, that's two. Okay, clearly I'm missing something as Bucko and the team here have slapped me twice for posts not meant to be offensive.

I do respect everyone's opinion on the matter, but I was not intending to incite scorn or make racist remarks in any way. Nothing about my post - including the spade reference - is racist, and should not be construed as such. Racism, in my opinion, begins with intent to discriminate and do harm, and nothing in my post was designed to do either.

I do think that this has actually addressed my question, though in a different way then I intended. Why is it that we can't have a debate about race in this country without it falling into insults about who's a bigot?

Chap

(Edited to make sure I spelled bigot correctly.)

Chaps-

I never said you were bigoted. I said you were insensitive, and there's a world of difference.

Respect for the dignity of others, irrespective of race, sexual orientation, gender etc is not a hopeless dream. It starts in each of our hearts and manifests in our actions and statements.

Brent(Who has friends everywhere)

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Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Unfortunately as whites we will never truly understand racism and to try and twist with a single anecdote of supposed reverse discrimination proves it.

Yes, and it is all about how black celebs are beginning to behave. Why can't they keep their snide ways to themselves...why we ain't had no good black entertainers since Step and Fetch it. Give me a break...if your news source is Larry King then no wonder your vision of the world is skewed. You didn't want an informed discussion on race and you know it...and by demeaning black folks in your thread you prove it.

The only missing keyword was "uppity". I so dislike that word and all that it implies.

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Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

It is such a delicate subject, but it seems that not taking this kind of banal bullsh*t head-on and calling a spade a spade is opening the door for abusive use of words about true racism and black-white relations in this country.

for posts not meant to be offensive.

It's interesting, isn't it? The phrase ". . . not meant to be offensive" is so similar to "I'm not a racist but . . . ", "Some of my best friends are gays . . . " and "Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the jews however . . . "

They're all designed to shield the inflammatory remarks of a bigot.

What's even cuter is that Chappie has bowdlerised the word "bullshit" but used flagrantly the well known racial slur "spade". In fact "spade" (as in "black as the ace of") isn't just used as an offensive term in the US, it's a put down applied to people of colour in some parts of Australia as well.

Chappie's intentions in this thread are clear to any reasonable person.

Again, I'll reiterate that my intentions and beliefs were not inspired by racism, nor the intent to inspire this kind of debate. But nevertheless am glad that so many people have put their thoughts forward; it's healthy to see how others feel and respond to the racial tensions clearly still alive and well in this country.

For the record, however, please do take the time to look up and read about the references and usages of the term "spade." You will find the phrase used in some of the most celebrated pieces of American literature, British theater, and Greek mythology to simply connote (as its has for thousands of years) forthrightness. It's not a racist comment, and I would certainly never use it as such - as some here must do given their familiarity with its racist flexibilities.

Since I am a woman of color, I guess I can throw my 2 cents on in the ring, otherwise I guess I could toss some food stamps... Trying to keep the mood light...As far as Chaplin or anyone else goes, I rarely remember one post from another unless someone says something that catches my attention.

The Isiah Washington incident, ok, he called one of his cast mates a faggot. What else was said? Was the dude gay? And why is everyone making a fuss about it when I have heard one gay man call another one a faggot and there was no type of drama at all. I guess it's kinda like the use of the N word, be white and say it around someone black and it's on and poppin. It's a shame that there is such a double standard when it comes to use of either of the words.

But since I am a moderator in my own mind, I must give you a time out, Chaplin for the use of the word spade when bringing up such a topic as this. Sometimes you got to think before you say certain things even though you may have not meant it as a slur, surely someone out here and forum land would take it as one. So for this offence, you must follow me to the dunking booth. And all those who are pissed about what you said can line up and try to drown you while letting off some frustration.....

(who is enjoying her 4th by sipping some Arbor Mist and partaking of the green) And oh, our people is over there fighting for their lives, can we put the drama on hold for today. Pretty Please....

I think Chaplin's remarks fully demonstrate what kind of person he is. And Wood's ridiculous reverse racism ploy to "prove" that there is a racism problem in America, is laughable at best.

Whether both are bigots is besides the point (and hardly verifiable from one thread). The point is, Chaplin claimed he wanted a serious discussion on race, and yet all he could come up with is one black actor making a remark that he then tries to tie not just to all black entertainers but to the entire black community! From someone who claims to be "well educated and affluent," this seems like an odd case study for a serious discussion on race relations.

Woods then joins him in his "poor white males" chorus by incriminating all blacks for the Duke case. By the way Woods, that prosecutor was fired, disbarred and is now being tried for criminal offenses. Why should the "black community" call for him to be fired or disbarred when he already has been (for heaven sake, at least know what you're talking about before spouting off at the mouth)? And furthermore, why should the "black community" apologise for that case? Do you also call for the "white community" to apologise when blacks are wrongly prosecuted?

As Matty pointed out, any reasonable person can see through Chaplin's bullshit, (hence why Woods completely missed it). This isn't the first time Chaplin has made some offhanded remarks to denigrate blacks (American) and Africans, while trying to soften it with a silly comment about him always being interested in race relations or socioeconomic studies of Africa. That technic is simple enough to fool the Woods of the world, but some of us with a few more functioning brain cells not tuned to Jesus, know better.

Looks like I am a victim of writing something and then the next day rereading it and seeing how ridiculous it was. Unfortunately it is there with alll its gory details and can't be erased. However I can say Cliff you are exactly right, my example was very poor and I apologize. While I think my shortcomings could have been pointed out without insults, I do appreciate you bringing this to my attention.

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

I do appreciate the feedback from the group, in spite of its less than reasonable tone. Particularly, thanks to Queen for her response. I think yours makes some of the best points, many far better than my original thoughts on the matter at hand. (I do, however, stand by my use of the spade term, as it is not a racist remark.)

Cliff, my friend, some day you and I will sit down in a pub and over a pint hash things out. I'm not sure where we got off on the wrong foot, but I respect your intelligent commentary (while respectfully questioning your continued hostility). My only parting thought on this is for all of us to approach this issue as Queen has so artfully done - with thought, respect for others and a desire to bring us closer to an understanding of where we've lost our footing. That, my friends, was the original intent of this thread.

Looks like I am a victim of writing something and then the next day rereading it and seeing how ridiculous it was. Unfortunately it is there with alll its gory details and can't be erased. However I can say Cliff you are exactly right, my example was very poor and I apologize. While I think my shortcomings could have been pointed out without insults, I do appreciate you bringing this to my attention.

Agreed. That was harsher than it needed to be and you know it, Cliff. Throwing in the Jesus bit was a personal slight just as surely as a racial comment would be.

PS- This thread SUCKS. I am glad I missed this one yesterday & got my fireworks elsewhere! Stepping out now. Talk about a mine field. Yipes.

Well, I see the thread has had the desired effect, a calm rational discussion of race relations.

I don't think Cliff was too harsh at all. As a person of color he really is the only one (Queen Too) who understands and appreciates racism. I think his post was spot on and as a white male I will defer to his perspective.

Woods- The Jesus bit was over-the-top (and personal) and for that I apologise. It stems from the disappointment when I see men (and women) of God showing little regard for how their words and actions hurt others. Unfairly, I hold them to a higher standard. Otherwise, what's the point of religion? But it is unfair.

What you and Chaplin did (and this is done quite often to minorities) is to rob an entire group/race of its individuality, who you feel must take the blame for the actions of each individual in the group. An action you disagreed with. I may not agree with what that actor said, but I sure as hell shouldn't feel any responsibility for him making it. And his actions shouldn't reflect on anyone else but himself. How would you feel, if I started a thread blaming all white people for the actions of Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan?

Thunter- I don't consider taking a personal dig at Wood's religion (especially in context of his insensitive racial remarks) to be in the same league as using a racial epithet...assuming that's the point you were making.

Cliff, I appreciate you calmer and more reasoned response above - and agree that if that is how you felt than it is incumbent upon me to be more sensitive. But I encourage you to re-read my original post, which does ask the question of what the black community thinks of the Washington and McKinney claims of racism.

You're right. I'd be horrified if people assumed that all white blondes (like myself) were born of the same vapid, shallow character of Paris Hilton. However, I never said - nor implied - that all blacks were of the same mind as Washington or McKinney. In fact, I tried to say rather pointedly that there is a gap between black American celebrities and the black community at large that does a disservice to the true presence of discrimination and bias against all people of color.

As a mixed minority (Black/Puerto Rican) I have always been the object of some sort of racism, by my own people and white people. However, what Chaplin has forgotten (as do many white people for that matter); since the beginning of race relations between whites and blacks; is that blacks have been despondently discriminated against.

As early as 1923 when an entire community was slaughtered because a white woman claimed that she had been raped by a black man (Rosewood, FL) or when a mother sinks her car into a river with her two children still in their car seats and claims a black man carjacked me, etc, etc, etc...

One incident of a black man calling a gay man a faggot is ridiculous, it is not the incident that is outrageous it is the response that it received, anytime that a note written by Paris Hilton while in prison sells for $500.00 we shouldn't be asking about race but rather how idiotic has America gotten that we make mountains out of molehills.

By the way the incidents I mentioned above have gone without notice because the victims were black, the poor Duke students, please had they just admitted their love of chocolate and not tried to hide it than they would not have been prosecuted as they had been. How were their lives destroyed? They lost a couple thousand dollars that are going to be refunded back to them, or was the fact that they were splattered across the nation as having sex with black women more damaging to their image than being accused of rape?

Also, when starting a thread on race use a more historic view anyone with brain cells knows that black americans, and all other minorities have been treated as second class and their rights have been trampled more times than anyone cares to acknowledge. I sincerely believe that once "First Class Americans" acknowledge the fact that minorities are treated differently the racism card will no longer hold merrit.

I was walking home from an evening of food and drinking with five friends, black, white, hispanic, and asian we were stopped by the police and the only one frisked was the black man in spite of our demand to know why we were being stopped, the police officer, a white man; replied that we looked suspicious and so with the new "stop and frisk law" in my city he could legally detain us, but he was only interested in frisking the black man and asked what we were doing with him, so Chaplin racism is alive, kicking and thirving in this country.

and saying, "I have black friends... doesn't stop one from being a racist

Nunnii, I agree completely that racism is alive and well in the U.S. And it is for that reason that we should recognize and call out people who misuse the issue of racism to excuse their own shameful behavior.

Increasingly, I think that this thread is shedding more light on the issue of celebrity than of race. Whether you are Mark Foley saying that childhood abuse and alcoholism should excuse engaging minors in sexual situations, or Isaiah Washington saying that Hollywood heard the booming voice of a black man and got scared to excuse his bigoted tirade, increasingly we are seeing high-profile people use wedge issues to draw attention away from them and explain "their side." It's troubling and deflects from the real every day folks who are indeed experiencing blatant racism, as you and your friends clearly have Nunni.

And for the record, I'd be careful about your own assumptions. Not sure where you got the notion, but I have never - and would never - try and claim that my having friends of color somehow makes me pure. In fact, I think it's having friends from so many different backgrounds that makes my struggle to understand everyone's point of view that much harder (and clearly controversial).

Just be careful not to fall into the same kind of prejudiced assumptions you're extolling others not to make.

You misunderstood me, I did not direct my comment to you per say but to those who claim that having black friends proves they are not racist, there are many incidents in history that show whites using this line and than trying to prove they are not racist, but as my 15 yr old says; "if the shoe fits..."

as for actors they live by a differnt set of rules, anytime you can walk over homeless, hungry people and spend thousands of dollars on things that are meaningless than the question becomes, who is right the homeless for asking or the rich for ignoring?

How can an actor make a million dollars on a movie but a working family has to live hand to mouth becuase there isn't any money, or social programs have to be cut because their isn't any money but you have actors with accounts full of money that they would not spend in two lifetimes, yes there are a handful of actors who give back but for everyone that gives back you have 10 who don't.

Americans are too consumed with the idea of hollywood and forget the real issues, hunger, homelessness, unemployment...

I think that some of what you say, may have some validity. However, your posting history denounces you and makes a lot of what you say worthless. I am not sure if I am correct but did you not post some anti foreigner propaganda in past posts, where you were insensed that they would have a Spanish menu option on automated services? Correct me if I am wrong. If it was not you, I am sorry. People have to try to not look at the person\\\'s race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality..., when evaluating wrongs. People of any of the preceding can be assholes, period. It is the same with HIV, having the bug, does not give someone an instant halo. If one was a deranged scumbag before the bug, chances are....

Okay, Carolann, that's not appropriate. No, that was not me, and the suggestion that it was is somewhat reckless. As Woods tried to point out, my history will suggest that I am not one to bait or encourage us to lash at at one another.

nunii, what in the world are you talking about? The actor has that much dough because he produces something of value that he is able to sell, the homeless person unfortunately hasnt. Is that racism? What if the rich actor is spanish or african american? You seem very confused.There is racism in every country. It sometimes takes people generations to accept those who dont look or sound the same as they do. I think the first post was commenting on those who use the term "racism" to attack whoever doesnt agree with them or whenever something doesnt work out in their favor. People are afraid to say anything about certain groups for fear of being termed a "racist". I will probably be called a racist for pointing this out. Its sorta of like McCarthyism era.

Well, the name and the avatar look familiar, and often connected with posts with a not so subtle undercurrent of prejudice. I am sorry if it was indeed not you. CA

Carolann, the avatar looks familiar because it is David Beckham. Please be more careful when you're trying to accuse someone of something they've allegedly said - and actually READ a person's posting history, don't just pretend that you have. I warned you in another thread about incendiary posts and I also had this thread in mind when I warned you.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

However, I do know this poster\'s history. If you read them you will see that he likes picking on blacks, latinos, jews, and, gays, and the mentally challlenged. I know who is depicted in the picture, such a hottie. I just meant that the picture was connected with posts that are tinged with prejudice. I went a little far with the name calling, but it was only to prove a point, since all this poster has to do is to apologize for how his comments may have been erroneously taken, and continue to make the same types of posts. Again, I apologize, and will watch my posts from now on.

"Particularly, thanks to Queen for her response. I think yours makes some of the best points, many far better than my original thoughts on the matter at hand. (I do, however, stand by my use of the spade term, as it is not a racist remark.)"

It only makes sense to me, Chappy. I have been known to call many a white person the N word, not for it's original definition but more in the way of slang. Even more has heard a white person use it as slang and not be attacked. It is just a word to me, the same thing with the word faggot, though I am not a man or gay...Am I wrong if I call my cat a faggot when he pisses me off? I'm not trying to make excuses for those who use those words in a negative way but just saying....Believe me, I didn't always think this way but has come around to looking at things from a logical sense, I guess. I hate to say sticks and stones when there are people out there who would hurt those who are gay or black...I thought the true definition of a faggot was a cigarette. Just makes you wonder who comes up with these words to be used in such a negative way...*sighs*

I find it quite interesting when comparing the "n" word to the term "faggot" it seems quite alright to spell out the word "faggot" yet we can't bring ourselves to say or even spell the "n" word. Even when used in a healthy debate or discussion.

Overall it seems to me that the exchanges have attempted to discuss a highly charged subject without degenerating into attacks and flaming. That's no small accomplishment considering the subject.

So I am for leaving the thread open for the timebeing. At some point, and maybe that point has been reached, it begins to be just a repetition of already stated thoughts and opinions. If there's no more to say -- then say no more.