Post by Azahul on Nov 27, 2018 4:58:22 GMT

Having used Dr A as my main list last year, I can also confidently say that Azahul makes it sound easy in his battle reports. The positioning, threat range, and activation order requirements are all tricky. I lost a bunch of games on clock that I was winning on attrition because it just took me too long to correctly run the list.

It has a high degree of technical mastery, which is also fun if you're looking for that in your games.

That is indeed why I love him Though this list is relatively simple on the order of activations at least. Usually just go Solos->Lights->Arkadius->Heavies.

Post by apoc2148 on Nov 27, 2018 15:34:38 GMT

Got my first game in with the S&D Dracodile list last night. Went against a Siege2 gravediggers list. Almost had him on scenario until I got careless and put S&D in range of Siege2 and got whacked.

Overall WE&SJ did well in the the list, star-crossed and Skarath made him almost untouchable. I had some deployment and list unpacking issue which I'm sure will get better with time. The list fared surprisingly well into all the shooting, but any lists with lots of sprays makes the jrs sad.

Post by Growl on Nov 27, 2018 17:57:26 GMT

Thanks Azahul for this really great thread! I dabbled with Minions briefly about a year and a half ago, got caught up in trying Cryx, which has been a lot of fun and quite a change from my first faction Khador, but recently was looking to dust off my minions again. This thread and your reports have been pure gold! I've been reading for days and I'm anxiously awaiting your next installments. If and when I get off my butt, I'll post up my reports so you and others can tell me where I've gone wrong so hopefully I can get better.

In the meantime, the few games you've had into Menoth have seemed kind of, ummm easy? I have a Menoth player in my meta who is pretty darn good and really gives me fits with his Judicator/Double Judicator lists. He tends to play High Reclaimer with a truck load of Exemplar. Any thoughts on how you would handle that with your lists?

PS. I am going to totally steal your list ideas, hope you don't mind, which I don't typically like to do, but I really like them and they play really well for you.

Thanks Azahul for this really great thread! I dabbled with Minions briefly about a year and a half ago, got caught up in trying Cryx, which has been a lot of fun and quite a change from my first faction Khador, but recently was looking to dust off my minions again. This thread and your reports have been pure gold! I've been reading for days and I'm anxiously awaiting your next installments. If and when I get off my butt, I'll post up my reports so you and others can tell me where I've gone wrong so hopefully I can get better.

In the meantime, the few games you've had into Menoth have seemed kind of, ummm easy? I have a Menoth player in my meta who is pretty darn good and really gives me fits with his Judicator/Double Judicator lists. He tends to play High Reclaimer with a truck load of Exemplar. Any thoughts on how you would handle that with your lists?

PS. I am going to totally steal your list ideas, hope you don't mind, which I don't typically like to do, but I really like them and they play really well for you.

The two Protectorate players at the event were certainly not prepared for what Arkadius could do, which turned traditionally tricky games (particularly the Harby match-up) into pretty easy ones. I wouldn't call them representative of how I normally fair into Protectorate. In fact, Protectorate is the largest hole in my pairing at the moment, in that I don't have any specific answers for them. I think I'm locked into Arkadius if my opponent has Harbinger, because Sturm and Drang really dislike Purification. Basically the only upkeep removal in the game they can't play around.

Double Judicator is interesting, because it's a list that gets randomly screwed if I have the right terrain. A nice central forest can mean that those Judicators are just unable to contribute to the game before they die. If I'm not able to hide my heavies, however, it can just as easily swing hard the other way. I have some wild theorymachine about using Enliven to minimise the potential output of a Judicator (generally speaking, sit ~15" away from a Judicator, forcing it to advance to shoot you and hopefully advance close enough to use the Flamethrowers. After the first hit you can Enliven back far enough that the rest of the Judicator's attacks are out of range, while the Judicator is in your retaliation range) but it virtually relies on the fact that your opponent has nothing to tag your heavy with to force Enliven earlier. If they do and you Enliven back early, the Judicator has no reason to be in your charge range the following turn.

So I feel they're games on the table, at least, though part of why I lean towards Arkadius into Protectorate is because if it comes to it I can just try and assassinate.

By all means steal the lists though I'm always interested to hear how people fair with the same lists in different metas. And if you come up with any great anti-Protectorate tricks in particular, I'm all ears.

Post by eterenal on Nov 27, 2018 21:09:30 GMT

Seems fair on the Sev1 front. Sounds like you had an idea to play Arkadius into Protectorate anyhow. I was in a team format and rated a Sev1 player as a red, no-go, match thinking his feat worked that way until I actually read his feat and noted it wasn't all models (including warbeasts) but rather just warlocks/warcasters.

How much do you value the splatter boar in the list? Is the lucky shot on the gun boar worth losing the second gun boar? It doesn't seem like you have any other lucky shot targets. I mainly ask because I'm going to borrow your list for a bit (I have mostly played Arkadius with 4 heavies and two lesser warlocks) and don't own a splatter boar.

Post by Azahul on Nov 27, 2018 21:31:07 GMT

The Arkadius build still has quite a bit of "give" in it, in that I by no means think it's perfectly optimised. The reason for the Splatter Boar over a second Gun Boar was simply because I felt that the Fury management offered by a Gobber Chef was suddenly relevant in order to capitalise on having Rage on my heavies instead of Primal. The Chef is also just a nice scenario piece in a list without terribly many expendable models. Lucky Shot on the Gun Boar is nice though, and Targ plus the Splatter Boar can lay out a couple of clouds for Mire to use as the basis for a proper Cloud Wall. But I don't think you actually lose that much if you go for a Gun Boar instead.

Post by Azahul on Nov 28, 2018 1:06:51 GMT

Got my first game in with the S&D Dracodile list last night. Went against a Siege2 gravediggers list. Almost had him on scenario until I got careless and put S&D in range of Siege2 and got whacked.

Overall WE&SJ did well in the the list, star-crossed and Skarath made him almost untouchable. I had some deployment and list unpacking issue which I'm sure will get better with time. The list fared surprisingly well into all the shooting, but any lists with lots of sprays makes the jrs sad.

Glad to hear it's working out well I think Gravediggers is edging towards a pretty favourable match-up for Sturm and Drang, it seems pretty difficult for it to do work into abilities like Vision and Shield Guard, let alone the Dracodile. And you were well up on scenario there, if Sturm had just played a little safer it looked like you had it.

List unpacking has been an interesting new learning experience as well. The Dracodile doesn't super like central terrain pieces so it tends to skew a little to one side over the other, and Sturm wants to start out within 6" of both Skarath and the Dracodile if possible. Luckily the WWFF benefit on a fairly defensive list usually means that I can adjust my positioning pretty easily.

Post by Azahul on Nov 28, 2018 1:47:18 GMT

Managed to score another game in last night as well. I played Sturm and Drang into Ret, which is probably a poor choice generally speaking (plenty of tools for sniping lessers throughout the faction and oh god the Hyperion's gun consuming lessers is the worst), but this specific match-up wasn't bad. My opponent was running:

My opponent won the starting roll. There was a table side with a trench and rubble and a cloud so I obviously grabbed that one. He had a Sentinel unit on each flank, Skarath on the right and Goreshade's battlegroup in the centre (with a bit of a gap actually dead centre). I deployed my Skarath across from his and ended up stacking my heavies on the left flank a bit, facing off with Imperatus and the Sentinels there.

Retribution Turn 1

Dahlia casts Haunting Melody, Goreshade puts Dauntless Resolve on the left unit of Sentinels and places some Freezing Mists on the table, and everything runs towards me.

Pigs Turn 1

Sturm casts Vision on Skarath, Polarity Shield on the Dracodile and Deceleration up in general. Dahlia and Brun cast their respective upkeeps.

Retribution Turn 2

The Phoenix and Skarath both shoot my Skarath, with Vision absorbing the Phoenix shot. Sentinels press closer on the left, the Healer sets up to move onto my opponent's flag next turn. The Sentinels on the right bunch up after my opponent decides that his original plan, spacing out to avoid my Skarath's sprays, would render them irrelevant on scenario in following turns. Both Sentinel units Mini-Feat. The Artificer puts Force Barrier on the right flank Sentinels.

Pigs Turn 2

I struggle to decide if I should go after Skarath or the Sentinels with my Skarath. I eventually decide on the Sentinels. Dahlia moves up onto the flag, and Skarath charges the only Sentinel contesting it. Because of the hill and Force Barrier however, Skarath misses two of the five or six Sentinels he catches in his spray. He does hit the most important one, the contesting one, and boosts damage to kill that one. I cast Counterblast as well.

In order to contest my opponent's zone I'm going to need to send in a Battle Boar. I Primal it up with my left flank Battle Boar, TK it forward with the Soul Slave, and charge Skarath doing something like 3 damage all up.

On the left I back my heavies out of range of the Sentinels and let Mire cover them with a Caustic Mist. The Dracodile moves forward a bit to bully the table. Sturm advances to catch all three heavies in Control and Feats.

I score my zone and flag, taking the score to 2-0 in my favour.

Retribution Turn 3

The Sentinels Vengeance into Skarath, the first one to do so dying to Counterblast. Between Vengeance attacks and their activations they kill Skarath. Goreshade then advances up to catch all the Sentinels in his Control range and Feats, casting Ghost Walk on the left flank unit and burning his remaining Focus on a couple of clouds. The Phoenix gets a Focus from an Arcanist and shoots Dahlia dead. His Dahlia runs forward to be in position to get to my flag next turn. Skarath sprays Orin, using his one boost to hit, and rolls snake eyes for damage doing nothing through Deceleration. The Artificer charges the Battle Boar and combo smites him across. The left flank Sentinels just walk into melee, three rolling well for swings on the Dracodile and doing about 15 damage, two swinging at the Battle Boar and rolling abysmally, only doing about 3-4 damage. The Lys Healer walks onto the flag on the left.

Score goes to 2-1 as my opponent is contesting my zone and scoring his flag.

Pigs Turn 3

The Primal'd Battle Boar frenzies on one of the Sentinels but fails to hurt him. Eilish moves up and uses Unbinding on the Dauntless Resolve'd Sentinels, doing three damage to Goreshade. The Soul Slave walks up and TK's Skarath around, giving Sturm a safe landing zone outside of walking distance. That lets Sturm walk forward and spray the two Sentinels engaging the Battle Boar. He burns four Fury boosting to hit and damage and kills them both. Camps his remaining three Fury. On the left Lug receives Guidance from the Mist Speaker. Brun moves up, and Lug charges the three Sentinels engaging the Dracodile. Thanks to Overtake he's able to get to and kill each of them and get out of the way of the Dracodile.

I decide to I need to kill both Imperatus and the Phoenix and my best odds of doing so are to cast Primal. So Primal goes on the Dracodile and Mire moves up, blocking the Sentinels from seeing Sturm with another cloud. It charges the Phoenix, hitting it with his blind spray. Kills the Phoenix with his two claws and tail. I'm about to make my bite attack on Imperatus when I lean over and go, "Wait, Goreshade's within 2" there". Uh... I bite Goreshade, boost to hit, and then boost the resulting damage roll. Since I'm hitting at dice plus 5 and Goreshade's down to 12 boxes thanks to Eilish he promptly dies to the bite.

Oops. Didn't mean to kill my opponent there. Still, it's a remarkably close attrition game and would have come down to the wire if we'd continued to play it out I think. If I do kill Imperatus (it'll be close I think) I can see Goreshade with his five souls and the remaining Sentinels, now able to charge the Dracodile in its back, bringing down the Dracodile. After that I have my two heavies to try and clean up the left flank, which they should be able to do, but I don't really have any way to deal with Dahlia and Skarath and the handful of surviving Sentinels on the right. Could go either way in the end I imagine.

My opponent really didn't need to be that far forward, and almost got away with it too I do generally think Arkadius is the drop into the overwhelming number of Ret builds, but honestly it's a pretty close thing. This game felt like a nicely even 50/50, and it was almost a shame to cut it off so quickly.

Post by Growl on Nov 28, 2018 3:23:22 GMT

I was wondering why you a Witch Doctor in your Arkadius list, is it for the access to ghostly? I was just looking at the options and there are several pretty good choices for solos that would be even more of a points value, but readily admit my overall ignorance of the faction and how its moving pieces may work.

Post by Azahul on Nov 28, 2018 3:51:11 GMT

Yep, 100% for Ghostly. Don't think he can actually use any of his other abilities in this list Pre-Mire he existed to give a Pathfinder option in the list. Post-Mire, well, he still does the same job for whichever Warbeast has Forced Evolution on it, because sometimes you need your heaviest hitter to go through terrain. He's also a great enabler for assassinations thanks to the free strike immunity, something that Mire can't duplicate.

He and Kwaak are the models I would ordinarily look at to replace for someone like Hutchuck, who I dearly miss, but currently Enliven is too important for some of my plans into powerful gunlines and the utility of Shadow Walk is something I haven't yet been able to let go of.

Post by Growl on Nov 28, 2018 5:49:29 GMT

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense! I was looking over the options and it’s tempting to take a Saxon, or Effrait, or even Maximus, but Ghostly is so much more than pathfinder. Like I said before, I’ve been playing Cryx for the past year or so and kind of took for granted Ghostly being pretty available. I appreciate your answer, and I see now how that could be a real game changer; a Frenzied heavy going through an obstruction, or like you mentioned Parry allowing a model to snake its way to its target.

Post by Azahul on Nov 28, 2018 6:18:55 GMT

Well, like I said up above, the exact Arkadius list has a little bit of tweaking and flexibility you can easily do on the edges. I'm quite fond of this current build, but there are a lot of variations you can go for.

Not sure I'd consider Saxon though in a list without units for him to give Pathfinder to. If all I'm getting is some anti-Warbeast tech I'd likely go for Alten Ashley. But there are a lot of compelling solos to pick from. Part of me wants to knuckle down and find a way to squeeze Husks into the list, though I'm aware it's probably not worth the effort

I got the first turn and set my Dracodile up skewing a bit to the right, preferring to have it on the side with cleaner lines of sight. Dahlia and Skarath were more on my left, since I intended to use the wall there to make Skarath harder to target. The Gobber Chef also went out on the left, giving me a model I hoped to run to contest my opponent's flag.

My opponent's Dracodile opted to avoid mine, setting out on the left flank, while two of the three Posse units set up on the right. I was pretty pleased with that, since I figured Orin and Polarity Shield would make it practically impossible for those Posse to ever contribute to the fight.

Both objectives are Stockpiles.

Pigs Turn 1

I cast Vision on Skarath, Deceleration on Sturm (might as well, I figured), and Polarity Shield on the Dracodile and charged Sturm up the board. Dahlia cast Haunting Melody on the off-chance something left Maelok's Control Range at some point in the game, Brun cast Stonehold and charged forward, and basically everything else ran.

Gators Turn 1

Maelok cast Soul Harvester on one of the right flank units and Death Pact on himself and moved up. The Witch Doctor used Death Ride and everything else ran forward.

Pigs Turn 2

I put Puppet Master on the Dracodile and moved it up, taking a spray on three Posse near the centre. I boosted to hit one and hit both the others without boosting, then boosted damage a couple of times. Didn't kill any, but left one on just a single hitbox and Corroded. Over on the left, Skarath advanced far enough to tag a Posse member. Did a single point of damage, then the Soul Slave TK'd Skarath to be more completely behind the wall. Sturm cast Deceleration again for want of anything better to do and camped three. Mire summoned a cloud to block LOS to the War Hog and Battle Boar. I was outside the Dracodile's charge range, but I wanted to force my opponent to choose between getting charges off with the Gatormen Posse or using the Dracodile's spray.

Gators Turn 2

Corrosion went out on the near-dead Gator on the right, stayed up across the other Gators for some chip damage. Maelok activated, Feated, cast Death Pact, and threw a Mortality at the Dracodile to chew up one of Orin's tokens. Took three damage from Arcane Void in return. Gators on the right ran forward to engage. Gators ran up on the right to jam. The unit in the centre ran through the forest to engage Sturm and Mire and generally muck up my support models. The leftmost one, down two hitboxes from Skarath's spray and Corrosion, loses a third point of health from Counterblast. The Dracodile received Guidance from the Mist Speaker and sprayed my War Hog and Battle Boar, doing a good bit of damage and blinding them both. The Spitter shot Lug for a few points of damage. His Gobber Chef runs to engage mine on the left flank.

My opponent scores his flag with the Mist Speaker, bringing the score to 0-1 in his favour.

Pigs Turn 3

I point out to my opponent that he really hasn't left much to stop the Dracodile from getting to his caster. We proxy out an assassination run. It basically involves Sturm receiving Puppet Master and Guidance and being TK'd out of combat by the Soul Slave. He then walks across and TK's a Posse engaging the Dracodile out of the way, a second Posse behind it, and then Maelok himself. The Dracodile receives Primal from a Battle Boar and charges and kills Maelok pretty comfortably.

We want to actually play this game out though, so we then clear the proxies off the board and play some attrition. My War Hog and Battle Boar shake Blind. I decide it's best to knock down as many Posse as I can. Both Battle Boars perform Throw power attacks on the centre unit of Gators, knocking all four of the jamming ones down and letting me move Mire and Sturm back freely. On the right, Brun comes forward and casts Frost Hammer on a group of four Posse. Actually hits most of them and crits on one of them. Lug then walks in with Bear Hands up and knocks down most of the remaining ones. Sturm Feats to drop the Dracodile and Spitter to Fury 1 and walks over to the right. He casts Telekinesis to pull Lug out of melee so that the Posse can't stand and swing on him. The Dracodile opts to spray Maelok and a bunch of intervening Gators, hitting all of them bar the Witch Doctor. He boosts damage on Maelok for a respectable chunk of damage, dropping Maelok down to single digits. One of the Posse hit ends up on one health and Corroded.

Over on the left, the War Hog uses Aggression Dial and swings on the knocked down Posse, killing two. Skarath walks around the Posse engaging him and kills it, overtaking to block the Dracodile. My Gobber Chef tries and fails to kill his.

Because I've failed to score or contest his flag the score goes to 0-2 in his favour.

Gators Turn 3

The Soul Slave hits my War Hog with a Mortality. The Dracodile walks around Skarath, kills the War Hog in two hits, takes some remaining swings on Skarath. Hits and Crits with the Tail as its last attack and I expire Vision to take no damage. Largely knocked down, Blind, and Stationary as they are (I think 7 of the remaining 11 Posse are suffering some kind of status effect) they do basically nothing across the board. Maelok gets healed back to 12 boxes by the Stockpile then cuts down to 7 to get Fury back on the board. He casts Death Pact and lurks behind the wall on the left.

Score goes to 0-3 as my opponent scores his flag again.

Pigs Turn 4

I'm pretty sure I can get Skarath onto Maelok. I use my Soul Slave to TK Skarath around the edge of the Dracodile's melee range. My Battle Boar gives him Primal, Skarath runs to within 8" of Maelok. Mire gives Sturm Weald Secrets, Eilish hands him Puppet Master, and the Dracodile sprays Maelok and a couple of other Gators. Hits Maelok for enough damage to force a transfer, Maelok is now Blind. Sturm TK's himself and walks through the forest. Kills the Mist Speaker with a boosted spray and TK's Maelok over towards Skarath. Skarath goes in and kills Maelok.

Skarath perfectly hidden by the Dracodile's tail there.

This game really impressed me in terms of how well I could deal with Maelok's massive armour skew without having much to break it with. I actually think this version of the list, with the Dracodile, is tougher to handle than the fourth Posse unit would have been. Without charges they basically never kill my Dracodile, but killing his is a demanding prospect and I can't control it the way I can Posse. Really fun game though, I always love it when I get to go overboard on the power attacks.