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Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

What I'm getting from you is, basically, "I didn't like the Mass Effect format." Personally, I was a fan. With some alteration, it could fit the 40K setting. I'd limit it to a smaller scale though, instead of an entire galaxy.

See, this is what I'm getting at. I don't want to be playing Mass Effect. I've done that game. I'm sure a Mass Effect-but-with-40K-characters could be a huge hit. That's great. If only for the fact that I've played it before. It was called Mass Effect. And Knights of the Old Republic, to some degree.

No. What I want is OLD Bioware. Baldur's Gate. Icewind Dale. Fallout pre-3. Dragon Age. A Third-Person Group-RPG localised to a country or continent. Which an Interrogator's party would be really good at doing. You want to play a Space Marine? Well, you can't. Go play Dawn of War 2 or, as luck would have it, Space Marine. However, there certainly can be two or three sets of Power Armour throughout the game, why not?

That's 'the Bioware' treatment.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Also, if following an episodic format, it could work. The universe moves on regardless of the character's actions. Choices made by a starting character should be largely irrelevant to the galaxy as a whole. However, you can manage personal actions being changeable. Mass Effect didn't do this perfectly, as I said, but it made a decent first attempt.

On reflection... technically, that could work. As you point out, one of the problems with the ME series is that all three games take place on the same, galaxy-level scale, so that avoiding major canon-breaking side-effects requires some very awkward narrative dislocations. But moving up in scope-of-authority with each game (community-level, then system-level, then galaxy-level) would minimise the impact of prior choices in a fairly organic way. It also gives you a reasonable scope for picking up NPC acquaintances early on, since your limited authority puts you closer to the individual level. So, well-spotted.

You'd still wind up making certain assumptions- i.e, that you actually *do* wind up satisfying your superior, however you go about it- but that would still allow reasonable latitude when it comes to choosing the means to particular long-term ends and any specific ethical hangups you can exhibit in the process. So the idea of a chronological trilogy, in the broadest sense, could be feasible. Mea culpa.

However, I still maintain that having a specific sequence of events planned within each game will inherently diminish the relevance of character choice in determining events (i.e, protagonism.) (For example, I don't see why your mentor has to become increasingly Radical. Given that he trusts you, can't you influence his worldview? And how did you earn his trust, if your methods are so different from his? But that sort of thing is fixable.)

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

You want to play a Space Marine?

Me, personally? Not particularly. I might want an option to play SM, because ethical inhibitions adds spice as well as difficulties, and they might have valid reasons to be on the ground, making independent tough calls. (Hell, if nothing else, they can be working for an Inquisitor. Until he suddenly dies. During warp storms.)

To be clear, I'm rather fond of the individual pieces of the ME series- characters, setting, themes, premise- I'm simply of the opinion that they never really added up to a cohesive whole. And I don't think that's simply due to flaws in execution, but intrinsic to contradictions in the series' basic design assumptions.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Yeah, I figured that game writers could allow for multiple endings allowing for an advance in power.

I figured there would be ways to ensure a happy Inquisitor boss-man at the end of the first two: Your boss begins as a Radical. Ends justifies means. So long as the bad guy dies, you get your promotion. I figured they could refine the Mass Effect sorta thing, which I saw as refining the Baldur's Gate consequences thing. I wouldn't have him developing as a Radical, but you would become more aware of this as the game progressed. He'd already be there, and you'd slowly find out.

With decent writers, either he'd promote you, or one of his rivals would when you ratted him out. Either that or he'd try to kill you. But yeah, with decent writers, with experience of similar in the past, this could be done.

Don't we all remember running into previously dead characters with amnesia in Baldur's Gate 2? In modern games, dead characters from the previous games stay dead.

Keeping it local like Baldur's Gate is a great idea, though. Space travel isn't easy or simple in 40K.

Personally, I'd take the good parts from Mass Effect, and from other games too.

So, yeah, I've played Mass Effect already too, and I don't want to play it again, true. I've also played Baldur's Gate, and I don't want to play that again. The best parts could be taken from both. It would be local, like Baldur's Gate, at least early on, but could incorporate the more modern consequences of actions in the writing, allowing for more complex story.

Just so long as it isn't like Dragon Age, which was a crappy rehash of Baldur's Gate. Screw that.
-------------------------------------------

Now, regarding alignment... I'd likely split it into multiple tracks. This would be difficult.

I would have multiple alignments representing various ideologies, maybe split into the three main Ordos. I would also try to track how secretive you were at the same time. This, of course, is complicated, but possible to pull off.

Malleus: Daemonology and sorcery will slide you along the Radical path. Refusal to compromise on such issues and relying on faith will make you more Puritan.

Xenos: Simple enough. Kill aliens and smash their technology to get Puritan status. Show tolerance for Radicalism.

Another option would be to have a massive list of 'issues' and track Puritanism vs. Radicalism for every issue. This would be better, but more awkward to implement.

For a few examples,

Government: Radicals on this track will want new institutions. Puritans will protect existing structures.

Psykers: Radicals on this track will attempt to protect psykers at great risk, whereas Puritans will be ultra-conservative.

Sorcery: Radicals will be less inclined to punish sorcerers and may use it themselves.

Technology: Radicals will be progressive, possibly to the point of using sorcerous or Xenos technology. Puritans will toe the Mechanicus line.

Xenos: Radicals on this track will be more tolerant of Xenos and their technology, or will at least use enemies of enemies as allies of convenience. Less tolerance from Puritans.

----

Multiple tracks could help show characters that want to maintain the Imperium's current structures (philosophically Puritan regarding governmental structures) but do it with a daemon sword. Sure, they're unusual, but it happens.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Okay, it's fairly clear that whenever I go outside the dedicated 40K Fluff thread, there aren't too many people who are aware how WH40K 'verse actually works.

Corruption is a thing. This is fact. If you have a prisoner in your holding, and you arrest him, that's great. If, instead, you choose to blow his brains out - even though you can totally choose not to, remember - a Chaos Daemon gets it's wings. Every 'evil' action you take, has negative consequences on your soul. And, in 40K, your soul is kind of a big deal. Even in the mere presence of Chaos can taint you. Having Mutants and Psykers around affects you negatively...Eventually. Xenos too - depending on author.

Corruption is not a sliding scale. You either have it or you don't. Let's say that you pick some background packages, and you start with a Corruption rating of 0. You're 'Pure', or, more accurately, you're Not Corrupt. Spot the difference. As the game progresses, you gain Corruption. No action you take will remove the stains from your soul. Only scripted events, certain Holy Items, or having a Cleric around will remove or prevent Corruption. In a proper 40K game, it should be practically impossible to end the game with 0 Corruption. You either die the hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain and such. Every Inquisitor eventually puts his toe in the pool.

Corruption, for all intents and purposes, is your alignment - but not. If we follow the Baldur's Gate route, you can even get special powers based on how Corrupt and Not Corrupt you are. As I said, your soul is a tangible thing. Futhermore, unless you have physical symptoms your Corruption (i.e; Mutations), nobody actually knows you're Corrupt unless they're a psyker.

However, as some have pointed out - correctly, too - it is possible to do illegal things, without actually touching Chaos specifically. However, there are problems with this idea and no Black Library author to date is yet to get it right (and it's highly unlikely that we can either, here) without coming across as "Yeah, but my character is special". Because, as I said, when you do something that is wrong, and you know it's wrong...Chaos claps it's hands, and it will always bite you in the end. This is how the Universe works.

Furthermore, when somebody says that they don't believe in the Emperor, or they don't believe he's a God. That is Heresy. And Heresy = Chaos. And, by not having the Emperor in your soul (remember that thing?) Chaos gets to you.

IMPORTANT; Space Marines are exempt from the Imperial Cult as-written. Nobody else gets to do this! Not even Inquisitors! Using Marines as a counter-example is a fallacy. Space Marines have Chaplains yelling at them every day to kill things in the name of the Emperor. Not to mention the indoctrination process. Futhermore, several Space Marine Chapters that weren't directly present when the Emperor walked the Galaxy (anytime after 3rd Founding), actually do believe that the Emperor is a God.

So far, and this isn't this thread, but an amalgamation of all the arguments that I've heard for a lot of games, and this thread;

1. Mass Effect did an alignment system - sort of. And I didn't like ME's alignment system. So I don't like alignment systems. Even though you're not doing it like Mass Effect, you mentioned Mass Effect and I said that I didn't like Mass Effect. Mass Effect.

2. I want to be an evil bastard and shoot people in the face. But, I don't want to have any negative consequences for doing so, because this is how it totally works.

Remember kids, Corruption only affects you. It doesn't make people on the street hate you, it doesn't lower shop prices. It has no negative consequences on the outside world.
The only people that are affected by Corruptive events are you, the people who witness and/or find out about it (i.e; Your Party), and the 'event' might even be done specifically targeting them, so, them too (i.e; The guy you just murdered). After 'The Event' happens, your friends get pissed at you (or they praise you) , you get a 'ding' on your screen that says +10 Corruption Points, and you now have the ability to set people's blood on fire and use non-purified Daemon Swords without your brain exploding.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-10-22 at 01:54 AM.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Okay, it's fairly clear that whenever I go outside the dedicated 40K Fluff thread, there aren't too many people who are aware how WH40K 'verse actually works.

However, as some have pointed out - correctly, too - it is possible to do illegal things, without actually touching Chaos specifically. However, there are problems with this idea and no Black Library author to date is yet to get it right (and it's highly unlikely that we can either, here) without coming across as "Yeah, but my character is special". Because, as I said, when you do something that is wrong, and you know it's wrong...Chaos claps it's hands, and it will always bite you in the end. This is how the Universe works.

Furthermore, when somebody says that they don't believe in the Emperor, or they don't believe he's a God. That is Heresy. And Heresy = Chaos. And, by not having the Emperor in your soul (remember that thing?) Chaos gets to you.

Bollooooooooocks.

First up: Chaos != Evil. It's not actions which are "morally wrong" that feed Chaos, it's actions that take people to psychological and emotional extremes. People who are given over to Chaos commit "evil" deeds because they chime with those extremes, not the other way round. Liber Chaotica has tons of great stuff on this.

Secondly, Illegal != Evil. Under any moral code, it's possible to have a situation where the most moral choice is illegal; you just have to live under the wrong government. The Wrong Government is also a great description of Imperial rule in many cases.

Two examples:

As portrayed on most planets, Imperial attitudes to social justice and property rights are horrendously backward and feudal. There is no clear rationale to this in terms of supporting the Imperial faith/war machine: the rich nobles/merchants who profit from this state of affairs seem just as liable to corruption and personal profiteering as the peasants whose faces they grind in the dirt. Breaking laws to redress these wrongs (say, doing some "creative" accounting) would usually be seen as morally right, and has little for Chaos to snack on.

The Imperium's overriding xenophobia is a precautionary principle, not an inherent moral value. There is nothing morally wrong (and nothing Chaotic either) about asking an Eldar for the time of day, but you would probably be shot for it.

Thirdly, the galaxy is teeming with non-human races, major and minor, which don't implode into Chaos-tainted anarchy just because they don't worship the Emperor (not to mention human planets that survive in isolation from the Imperium). The Cult of the Emperor is the Imperium's way of keeping peoples' thoughts along party lines, for many reasons including but not limited to mitigating the influence of Chaos on society.

The average Imperial citizen does not literally have some supernatural presence of "the Emperor in their soul"; they just have a set of beliefs. If the former was uniquely necessary as you portray it, then factions like the Craftworld Eldar would not exist. They'd just be gibbering collections of Chaos Spawn by now.

You clearly have your own very hard-line interpretation of the metaphysics of Chaos, which is fine, but it's a bit much to tell the rest of us that we don't know what we're talking about and are doing it wrong because our interpretation differs. And I want to stress, "interpretation" is definitely the right world, because even the published materials are presented as subjective, in-universe sources. You yourself mention Black Library authors not "getting it right". Everybody has their own picture, and I think people would appreciate it if you didn't belittle them because their picture doesn't match every detail of yours.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by LCP

First up: Chaos != Evil.

It really does equal out. At the very loosest, Chaos = Strife (from Ben Counter's books). Which the Imperium effectively runs on.

Imperial attitudes to social justice and property rights are horrendously backward and feudal. There is no clear rationale to this in terms of supporting the Imperial faith/war machine: the rich nobles/merchants who profit from this state of affairs seem just as liable to corruption and personal profiteering as the peasants whose faces they grind in the dirt.

That's the point. That's the whole reason that Curze turned in the first place. As long as the Imperium exists in the way that it does, then Chaos thrives simply because of the backwards, feudal and tyrannical Imperium.

Thirdly, the galaxy is teeming with non-human races, major and minor, which don't implode into Chaos-tainted anarchy just because they don't worship the Emperor (not to mention human planets that survive in isolation from the Imperium).

All of the major xenos races have ways to opt out of Chaos. The only major xenos race that has any remote connection to Chaos are the Dark Eldar, and their way around Chaos is to a) be in the Webay, and b) Not die.

The Cult of the Emperor is the Imperium's way of keeping peoples' thoughts along party lines, for many reasons including but not limited to mitigating the influence of Chaos on society.

Several sources say that the party line, and mitigating Chaotic Influence are one and the same, and that you can't have one without the other.

The average Imperial citizen does not literally have some supernatural presence of "the Emperor in their soul"; they just have a set of beliefs.

You say that like they're not the same thing. I could go into real-world beliefs on the matter. But I'm not allowed to.

factions like the Craftworld Eldar would not exist. They'd just be gibbering collections of Chaos Spawn by now.

And they would have been. Had they not cut that **** out, fled into the Webway and developed the Infinity Circuit.

Everybody has their own picture, and I think people would appreciate it if you didn't belittle them because their picture doesn't match every detail of yours.

It's canon. I can only repeat what I've read on the subject.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-10-22 at 06:26 AM.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

All of the major xenos races have ways to opt out of Chaos.

Precisely! Ways not involving the Emperor. Hence faith in the Emperor is not uniquely necessary; you can fail to give a flying flip about Him on Terra, or even be aware of his existence, without necessarily falling to Chaos.

Also, the list of minor Xenos races is huge. In most cases, no mention is made of anti-Chaos measures; in many cases, describing their FTL capabilities seems to take priority. If it was such an overriding concern, you'd think it'd merit more of a mention, or that more of them would be portrayed as warp-twisted monsters.

I could go into real-world beliefs on the matter. But I'm not allowed to.

Well then, all I'm saying is that considering we're discussing the fictional metaphysics of souls, and the existence of souls in the real world is hardly a matter of popular agreement, maybe you shouldn't assume people are on the same page as you before you begin.

It's canon. I can only repeat what I've read on the subject.

One of GW's saving graces, in my opinion, is their stance that "it's all right and it's all wrong". There is no cast-iron canon and that's one of the things that makes the setting fun.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by LCP

Precisely! Ways not involving the Emperor. Hence faith in the Emperor is not uniquely necessary; you can fail to give a flying flip about Him on Terra, or even be aware of his existence, without necessarily falling to Chaos.

However, note that the Imperium doesn't have those technologies. When the Imperium can develop their own closed Waaagh! circuit, they can stop believing in the Emperor.

One of GW's saving graces, in my opinion, is their stance that "it's all right and it's all wrong". There is no cast-iron canon and that's one of the things that makes the setting fun.

I'm truly, truly sorry. But that position no longer exists. And hasn't since around 1995-2000 when they started tidying up the Fluff.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

However, note that the Imperium doesn't have those technologies. When the Imperium can develop their own closed Waaagh! circuit, they can stop believing in the Emperor.

See my previous comments about

1) minor Xenos races

and

2) human worlds that are cut off from the Imperium for long periods of time.

A common refrain when reading the description of specific worlds in the 'verse, particularly in the RPG-line stuff, is that they were "rediscovered" by such-and-such a Crusade, but the local population had survived since the Great Crusade or even earlier. Sometimes they kept an altered version of belief in the Emperor; sometimes they didn't, and the newly-arrived Ecclesiarchy swallows up their local religion into saints and holidays just like Christianity did under the Romans. These worlds, as a rule, are not daemon-infested hellholes.

I'll put my cards on the table: I think life in the 40K-verse is more interesting when the possibility of legitimate disagreement with the Imperial party line (without inevitable madness and mutation) exists. Chaos is an existential threat, and the Imperium has hit on a policy to fight it. However, their line that it's the only way is precisely that - their line, to keep people behaving as they desire.

I'm truly, truly sorry. But that position no longer exists. And hasn't since around 1995-2000 when they started tidying up the Fluff.

I've been consuming GW material since 1997, and somehow I picked up that idea. If I google it, I find contemporary BL authors talking about it. Where exactly did GW say that they were changing their position?

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by LCP

Sometimes they kept an altered version of belief in the Emperor; sometimes they didn't, and the newly-arrived Ecclesiarchy swallows up their local religion into saints and holidays just like Christianity did under the Romans. These worlds, as a rule, are not daemon-infested hellholes.

Your words not mine. And I never said Daemon-infested Hellholes. As I mentioned in my not-short post about Corruption. It doesn't have to go all the way bad. It only takes a little before Chaos gets your soul. As I said, very, extremely rarely does an Imperial soul stay pure, and, as such, 'All Imperial souls go to Chaos'.

Look, I really don't know how the minor races do it. It's never explained. So, you can make up whatever you want for how they do it. But, the Imperium, doesn't.

I'll put my cards on the table: I think life in the 40K-verse is more interesting when the possibility of legitimate disagreement with the Imperial party line (without inevitable madness and mutation) exists.

Like I said, I can only repeat what I've read. What you think is irrelevant. Now, I don't say that to be rude. I'm saying what is canon, is. And what you think makes the setting more interesting is fine, but it's still what you think, and thus, not canon.

Which is how we end up with games like the original Dawn of War, and Space Marine. They're great games, don't get me wrong. But scratch the surface and those game are full of inconsistencies which people like me have spotted.

But that's me. And I'm tainted and spoiled by the Fantasy Flight RPGs. Dark Heresy goes into the Imperium-Chaos relationship far more than anything else has...With the possible exception of Liber Chaotica. And, again, I think if there ever is a 40K game that needs to be made, it needs to stick with the RPG that's already there.

ION; Dark Millenium, the planned 40K MMO is effectively dead in the water as it was rumoured that it was trying to do 'too much' to appease everyone and was costing too much to even make the tutorial areas. Which leads me to believe that any game based on 40K should not try and do everything.
Later, THQ and Relic both downsized their companies by about half each. I'm not saying that the two are connected. Just that it's interesting.

I've been consuming GW material since 1997, and somehow I picked up that idea. If I google it, I find contemporary BL authors talking about it. Where exactly did GW say that they were changing their position?

Everyone has that idea. It's been around since the 90s and somehow stuck in the 40K Zeitgeist that 'everything you've been told is a lie', which, interestingly enough is no longer a tag line for the 'verse.

I don't know what the official line is. But paraphrased it goes something like this;
"Everything is official, until retconned or replaced. The most current Fluff always takes precedence. If there is no precedent, it becomes the official Fluff."

That last sentence is often like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. But, that's how it is.

The change was between 3rd and 4th Edition. And is most definitely the case now. Anything that is 'no longer in print', and even 'print on demand' is exactly that; No longer in print. Which means Jaq Draco, as amazing as that story is, goes down the toilet.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Note that the suggested alignment systems I mentioned were political alignments, not a warp Corruption scale.

Corruption just is, it's from 0% to 100% as Cheesegear stated. You're either pure, or your soul gets dirty and can't be cleaned out without extreme sacrifice (See: Martyrdom).

I agree regarding 'evil things and no consequences'. This should be true. Except when it's not. Generally though, being a brutal bastard will be the surest way to succeed. Being nice will make succeeding extremely difficult. No good act should go without punishment and suffering. Occasionally doing something evil will make enemies, but that's why you've got to be savvy.

Okay, so you didn't like Mass Effect. We're getting into your personal opinion, for something which could very easily be used as a solid inspiration to make a game.

----

Now, regarding not believing in the Emperor = Chaos. Not exactly true.

A strong, pure belief in the Emperor = Resistant to Chaos. Not believing means less of this resistance, but there are other ways to not turn to Chaos. I think I'll quote Gideon Ravenor...

"Chaos claims the unwary or the incomplete. A true man may flinch away from its embrace, if he is stalwart, and he girds his soul with the armour of contempt"

Note that he doesn't say that it requires faith. Now, he could be wrong, but various canon sources (e.g: Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader) imply that faith is not required, although it helps.

Also, furthermore: Radical =/ Chaos. One could use Xenos tech and not be corrupted by Chaos. Yes, you'd be a filthy heretic, but your sould would remain pure, providing it wasn't warp tech. Using a Necron gauss gun won't corrupt the soul, but will make you a politically corrupt friend of aliens.

This is why I suggested multiple political alignments. Actual warp corruption wouldn't be an alignment as such, it would be more akin to radiation exposure. You can't remove radiation exposure once you've got it. The difference is that this exposure makes you grow tentacles and go mad. Promoting technological progress without warp tech won't create Chaos corruption, but it will make you a dirty heretek in the eyes of the Mechanicus.

Going by Dark Heresy: You don't get Corruption Points for using an Ork gun and hanging out with aliens. You do get Corruption Points for using sorcery and hanging out with witches.

---

Also, you can paint the blood of the pure on your armour if you want to avoid Chaos (LOL).

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

What about a Xenos Witch? The Farseer is protected by his fancy Spirit Stones...But you, aren't.
What about Alpharius? He hung around with xenos...Or didn't that guy Fall?

Like I said, whether Xenos 'corrupts' you or not depends on the author, and depends on the xeno in question.

A xenos witch, possible corruption, yes. Perhaps even very likely, depending on how careful they are with their powers (The corruption is because they're witches, not because they are Xenos). Hanging out with non-psychic Xenos may make you politically corrupt (like taking bribes: see my various alignment and corruption tracks) but doesn't make you grow extra arms.

Also note that Alpharius is arguably the least warp tainted of the Traitor Primarchs. Corrupt politically, certainly, but has the least chance of becoming a Daemon Prince.

'Corruption' relating to political and social corruption should be different from 'Warp Taint'.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

'Corruption' relating to political and social corruption should be different from 'Warp Taint'.

The only problem with that is, while yes, I absolutely agree. In practice, it doesn't quite work. Everytime someone has gone against the Imperium, they always end up turning to Chaos anyway (i.e; Alpharius, Curze, Huron, Sarpedon, etc.) even though that's probably not how they start, it's how they end.

So far, the only canon examples for turning against the Imperium, is turning to Chaos. Even the Relictors did it. Although there is that one time where the planet turns to the Tau...But that turns out to be a Genestealer Cult, so it's hard to know what the 'choice' was.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-10-22 at 07:35 AM.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

I don't know what the official line is. But paraphrased it goes something like this;
"Everything is official, until retconned or replaced. The most current Fluff always takes precedence. If there is no precedent, it becomes the official Fluff."

Paraphrased from where? Book? Link? Anything?

It's a simple matterof googling to find Black Library authors talking about the "all right and all wrong" attitude as recently as you like, and even talking about that attitude being handed down from GW HQ.

GW has never, to my knowledge, disavowed this attitude to their player base. It's a great attitude to have, and I don't see why one would deliberately go out of one's way to interpret the situation such that subtle differences of interpretation can be classified as one person being "wrong". If you want to make a rod for your own back, sure, have fun - just don't come whacking other people with it.

I too have the FFG RPGs: the vast majority of my activity on these forums is as a Dark Heresy/WFRP GM for PBP games (they're linked in my sig). I too think they're a great expansion of the universe and make great use of the feel of 40K. I've read the same material, but I clearly haven't come to the same understanding as you - which marks both of our opinions for what they are, interpretations. I'm not trying to convert you to mine, I'm just objecting to you putting people down for not conforming to the specific minutiae of yours.

Dark Millenium, the planned 40K MMO is effectively dead in the water as it was rumoured that it was trying to do 'too much' to appease everyone and was costing too much to even make the tutorial areas. Which leads me to believe that any game based on 40K should not try and do everything.
Later, THQ and Relic both downsized their companies by about half each. I'm not saying that the two are connected. Just that it's interesting.

Just a thought, it might be to do with the global economic crash or the state of the MMO market, rather than a vindication of your personally-held views about a niche hobby.

Anyway, I'm out. This is as far as I feel productive discussion is going to go.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by LCP

Just a thought, it might be to do with the global economic crash rather than a vindication of your personally-held views about a niche hobby.

I would love it if Dark Millenium took off the ground. But, as it stands, THQ is one of the better companies in the business and halving their company didn't make much sense, GFC or not. They lost money they didn't expect to lose on games they released because they were bad.

Relic was also going very strong as the Dawn of War games were a massive success. Space Marine...Not so much. Space Marine's lack of...Goodness, is not due to the GFC. But due to Relic making a game trying to ape the 3PSes of the now...And not having much luck. Since Relic's best-selling games are RTSes....So, yeah.

The other GW-licensed property, Age of Reckoning (by EA, no-one less) is haemorrhaging money.

Now, if you check GW's stock ratings, they've barely dipped. In fact, one of their biggest claims is that they actually didn't lose a whole lot of money in the GFC, which is how they managed to keep pumping out models...Putting more fuel on the fire that is Finecast...Which should have killed them...But it didn't.

So, where is the big GW-money going now, if not to sponsor and license further GW-licensed games? Don't know. But they're not making games. Because the current MMO is failing and the last 40K game didn't exactly sell well. So...More models, more Codecies.

But this is getting way off topic.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-10-22 at 07:52 AM.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

The only problem with that is, while yes, I absolutely agree. In practice, it doesn't quite work. Everytime someone has gone against the Imperium, they always end up turning to Chaos anyway (i.e; Alpharius, Curze, Huron, Sarpedon, etc.) even though that's probably not how they start, it's how they end.

That might be because the only way of (effectively) opposing a system that is so vast and totalitarian as the Imperium of man (who'd plan your day down to the minute if they could, at least on some worlds) is to join one of the other big players out there. And since most other races won't take you, you eventually turn to Chaos, because their doors are always open. So if you actually want to FIGHT the Imperium, after some time, you'll likely end up with Chaos one way or another, but not because the Imperium no longer protects you.

Another example, Tau human auxilliaries don't fall to Chaos despite neither worshipping the Emperor nor posessing the Tau's unique low Warp signature. Or the aforementioned human colonies that have been cut off from the Imperium for a long time. Goge Vandire is another example of people going just crazy, without Chaos.

Nobody's saying that souls which are desperate and corrupt in the usual sense, meaning they belong to evil and callous people, aren't Chaos' prime targets, because, yes, if you're already on the low road, falling becomes easier and easier.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

The only problem with that is, while yes, I absolutely agree. In practice, it doesn't quite work. Everytime someone has gone against the Imperium, they always end up turning to Chaos anyway (i.e; Alpharius, Curze, Huron, Sarpedon, etc.) even though that's probably not how they start, it's how they end.

So far, the only canon examples for turning against the Imperium, is turning to Chaos. Even the Relictors did it. Although there is that one time where the planet turns to the Tau...But that turns out to be a Genestealer Cult, so it's hard to know what the 'choice' was.

Actually, Tau is a good example. The Tau have a lot of Gue'vesa helping them out in various locations (it's more than a single planet: converting aliens to their cause is a Tau strong suit). Okay, there are problems, in that they don't have the knowledge of how to conduct an efficient witch purge when a few are born psychic, but so far, they largely haven't turned to Chaos. There's the potential, of course, since the Tau don't have Black Ships. That being said, a Radical Ordo Xenos Inquisitor could reasonably easily help the Tau out regarding psyker-purges.

I actually agree on making a game very similar to Dark Heresy, but I wouldn't use the actual game mechanics: they're actually very dated, and basing a computer game on a pen and paper RPG based on a wargame seems a bad idea to me. Mechanically, Mass Effect or similar could serve as an inspiration, but not much more than that (magic works differently, melee isn't a super cool thing to do).

EDIT: Golem's Voice makes a very good point. Standing alone against the Imperium is suicide. You need to pick someone to back you, be it Space Wolves, the Tau, Chaos or whoever. Also, the conventionally corrupt people fall more to taint than those that are upstanding members of society. There are, of course, exceptions. Some Xanthites, and all Oblationists, are very conservatively Imperial and lacking in conventional corruption.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Actually, Tau is a good example. The Tau have a lot of Gue'vesa helping them out in various locations (it's more than a single planet: converting aliens to their cause is a Tau strong suit).

The only problem with that is that the Tau are almost as brutal as the Imperium when it comes to Not Doing What We Say. Ergo, Gue'vesa planets are often so sterilised and 'safe' that it becomes hard to do anything but Obey. And when you don't, you get shot...Or your planet gets sterilised in the literal sense. So, it's a bad idea.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

The only problem with that is that the Tau are almost as brutal as the Imperium when it comes to Not Doing What We Say. Ergo, Gue'vesa planets are often so sterilised and 'safe' that it becomes hard to do anything but Obey. And when you don't, you get shot...Or your planet gets sterilised in the literal sense. So, it's a bad idea.

True, very true, but irrelevant.

The point is that these humans, sterile as they are, went against the Imperium and didn't fall to Chaos.

That being said, I'd rather live there than on Necromunda. I'd have a better internet connection, most likely.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

A Chapter is self-governing. Yes. They rule a planet, or at most a system of two or three planets. Unless they're Ultramarines - and they cheated.

However, they do not plan campaigns and they do not decide where to go. Before a Chapter is even created, the High Lords of Terra note that a particular battle zone has a higher incidence on enemy contact, and they then petition for a Chapter to be founded in that area.

That area becomes that Chapter's jurisdiction. The Chapter's homeworlds, and two or three systems out. And that's about it. And they don't get to choose not to go to a battle.

They do chose which battles to fight - as in, they prioritize. There are something on the order of 1.000.000 space marines total - and similarly, around a million stars in the Imperium. They cannot be everywhere at once, so they go where they are most needed. At their own discretion.

I really don't want to argue the point - discussion over interpretations of fiction that, on top of being fictional is also very highly selfcontradictory is the hight of futility.

So no argument - but a different opinion: Each chapter is a kingdom unto itself, with it's own ships, support crew, logistics, planning and strategy. They owe fealty unto the Emperor and the Imperium, but take no orders from anyone.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

The point is that these humans, sterile as they are, went against the Imperium and didn't fall to Chaos.

That being said, I'd rather live there than on Necromunda. I'd have a better internet connection, most likely.

I think the Gue'vesa represent the opposite side of the coin of the imperial humans; Both live heavily opressed lives, it's just that the imperium relies on spiritual elements, while the Tau are highly anti-spiritual.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

I've always imagined it was less the Emperor himself keeping humanity safe from corruption, and more the tenants espoused by the Imperial Cult. The Chaos gods draw their power from the base impulses of sentient beings. First you give yourself over to the brutal Ecstasy of violence, THEN you start worshiping Khorne.
The Imperial Cult forbids the sort of hedonism that Slanessh promotes, and while it glorifies violence, it only does so to the degree that violence serves a higher cause (A true Khornite dosn't care whose head is getting bashed in, so long as heads are bashed). An Imperial will look at the aftermath of an artillery strike and say "Look at all those heretics that just died. Today was a good day". A Chaos Worshipper will look at the aftermath of an artillery strike and say "Look at all those people who were blown to bits, today was a good day". An Ork will look at the aftermath of an artillery strike and complain that he missed the show, followed by a demand that they do it again.

Really, any sort of system that discourages the whims of chaos will do. The Gue'vesa are just as devoted to the Tau and the philosophy of the Greater Good as the Imperials are to the Emperor.

Also, Corruption =! Falling to Chaos. A guy who enjoys getting drunk and beating people up may be corrupted, but he's a long way from shouting "Blood For The Blood God". In fact, if he gets himself a uniform and limits who he beats up, he could be considered a model citizen. So just because a planet dosn't have the Imperial Cult keeping everybody in line, dosn't necessarily mean it will fill up with demon worshipers. It takes something very extreme to make somebody a chaos worshiper, that's why Cults of Slanessh throw drug-orgies, rather than just sitting around eating chocolate.

Originally Posted by Dsurion

I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.

Originally Posted by chiasaur11

So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by Squark

I think the Gue'vesa represent the opposite side of the coin of the imperial humans; Both live heavily opressed lives, it's just that the imperium relies on spiritual elements, while the Tau are highly anti-spiritual.

Pretty simplistic, and misses the point. Both the Imperium and Tau rely on fear and subjugation to keep their populations in check. The Tau are just nicer about it and don't tell you that you're being subjugated until you look around and wonder why you and all your friends are building Tau-shaped buildings for no wages 'for the Greater Good' and then you start to wonder what that even means...'For the Tau'.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-10-22 at 04:39 PM.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Pretty simplistic, and misses the point. Both the Imperium and Tau rely on fear and subjugation to keep their populations in check. The Tau are just nicer about it and don't tell you that you're being subjugated until you look around and wonder why you and all your friends are building Tau-shaped buildings for no wages 'for the Greater Good' and then you start to wonder what that even means...'For the Tau'.

I agree, yeah.

I figure that, generally, living on a Tau world would be better than living on an Imperial world, but it would depend on the Tau worlds and Imperial planets in question. Imperial worlds range from hellholes like Fenksworld to pretty decent places like you get in Ultramar. I imagine there's a fair variety on Tau/Human worlds too: Some will be treated better, some worse.

Some Tau might resort to effective slavery like mentioned there, but I think they'd have a lot of social experiments currently ongoing, trying to figure out how to easily get the most out of their Gue'vesa. It will be self-serving, of course, but some may realise that it serves them best if they treat their human citizens well.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Well, the Tau don't have to deal with the Admech restricting technology, so I imagine the average Gue'vesa will have access to some Quality of life tech. I have a feeling that the Tau are going to keep the best stuff to themselves, especially stuff like weapons, but some stuff finds it's way to the Gue'vesa.

Originally Posted by Dsurion

I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.

Originally Posted by chiasaur11

So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Pretty simplistic, and misses the point. Both the Imperium and Tau rely on fear and subjugation to keep their populations in check. The Tau are just nicer about it and don't tell you that you're being subjugated until you look around and wonder why you and all your friends are building Tau-shaped buildings for no wages 'for the Greater Good' and then you start to wonder what that even means...'For the Tau'.

I'm skeptical of this. The idea that life under the Tau is no better than Imperial rule is difficult to reconcile with a number of human worlds that apparently defected to their side voluntarily, even running a significant risk of Imperial reprisals. Or that the Kroot still get to practice their peculiar cannabalistic shamanic rituals, despite official disapproval of the practice. Sure, their mindset has some unfortunate implications on a par with Star Trek Cardassians, but (to my knowledge) there's very little evidence for systematic brutality on a par with the Imperium. Like Gol Dukat, they could go either way.

Originally Posted by BRC

The Imperial Cult forbids the sort of hedonism that Slanessh promotes, and while it glorifies violence, it only does so to the degree that violence serves a higher cause (A true Khornite dosn't care whose head is getting bashed in, so long as heads are bashed). An Imperial will look at the aftermath of an artillery strike and say "Look at all those heretics that just died. Today was a good day". A Chaos Worshipper will look at the aftermath of an artillery strike and say "Look at all those people who were blown to bits, today was a good day". An Ork will look at the aftermath of an artillery strike and complain that he missed the show, followed by a demand that they do it again.

I'm pretty sure that it's bloodshed, decadence, disease and 'change' that spawned the chaos deities to begin with, back at a point where they had no particular followers. Direct worship might nourish them to a greater extent, but the fact remains that the Imperium creates the social conditions that make chaos cults so attractive to the lower classes, and deliberately inculcates a mindset among the elite and military which at a minimum considerably greases the slope towards conscious worship.

It's useful to remember that the overwhelming bulk of imperial citizens are probably born to hive worlds like necromunda, with populations in the trillions, where life is a constant darwinian struggle in a toxic mutagenic environment and ever-shifting territorial claims by gangland leaders dominate the political landscape. Daemon worlds are unpleasant places, but some of 'em seem to have, like, ecologies, and farmlands, and pleasure cults, and functional industries. Sure, slavery, torture, massacres, civil war, disease and deformity are endemic, but there's almost no reason to suppose the average imperial citizen would be substantially worse off if the whole shebang were swallowed by the maelstrom. The social end results of the two philosophies appear to be almost indistinguishable.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by Carry2

I'm skeptical of this. The idea that life under the Tau is no better than Imperial rule is difficult to reconcile with a number of human worlds that apparently defected to their side voluntarily, even running a significant risk of Imperial reprisals. Or that the Kroot still get to practice their peculiar cannabalistic shamanic rituals, despite official disapproval of the practice. Sure, their mindset has some unfortunate implications on a par with Star Trek Cardassians, but (to my knowledge) there's very little evidence for systematic brutality on a par with the Imperium. Like Gol Dukat, they could go either way.

Eh, the setting has a contractual obligation to make every faction terrible. If they don't eat a puppy for breakfast and a baby for lunch then they don't have a place in the 41st Millennium.

Originally Posted by Dsurion

I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.

Originally Posted by chiasaur11

So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.

Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

Originally Posted by Carry2

I'm skeptical of this. The idea that life under the Tau is no better than Imperial rule is difficult to reconcile with a number of human worlds that apparently defected to their side voluntarily, even running a significant risk of Imperial reprisals. Or that the Kroot still get to practice their peculiar cannabalistic shamanic rituals, despite official disapproval of the practice. Sure, their mindset has some unfortunate implications on a par with Star Trek Cardassians, but (to my knowledge) there's very little evidence for systematic brutality on a par with the Imperium. Like Gol Dukat, they could go either way.

The Tau have kind of fallen off the spotlight of late, but what the most prevalent portrayal I've encountered of the Tau is that while life in their empire may look ideal, and its citizens may even consider it to be so, when you peel back the glossy finish, they probably don't look that different from what humanity was like during it's opening stages of colonization. The inquisition is still there, just without the idiots who failed subtlety 101. All other ideals are supressed, in particular religions (Which is doubly bad considering worship of the emperor is the only thing keeping humanity going). And while they may offer you a place in their empire before the conquer you... If they're making that offer, it means the invasion fleet is already waiting in the wings, ready to descend (And, to be fair to humanity, part of the xenophobia in the imperium is due to the fact that just about every alien species humanity has encountered has justified said belief).

I'm pretty sure that it's bloodshed, decadence, disease and 'change' that spawned the chaos deities to begin with, back at a point where they had no particular followers. Direct worship might nourish them to a greater extent, but the fact remains that the Imperium creates the social conditions that make chaos cults so attractive to the lower classes, and deliberately inculcates a mindset among the elite and military which at a minimum considerably greases the slope towards conscious worship.

That's... somewhat ambiguous. As Cheesegear has pointed out in the past, the Chaos Gods almost never interact directly with the material world in full force, and in cooperation. The last time they did? 10 millenia ago. Something had them in panic mode, and the most noticable variable in that equation? The Imperial Creed (Also, note that the warp was much more peaceful during the pre-Heresy days, as the Astronomicon was only put into service after the heresy). As silly as it sounds, humanity putting it's collective fingers in its years and yelling, "LA LA LA GODS DON'T EXIST" seemed to be working. We can't be sure, but it certainly does suggest direct worship is pretty darn important (It's quite possible the Chaos Gods were afraid of a 2 step plan on the emperor's part, Step 1 being to reduce their power to a more managable level, and Step 2 leading to their destruction)

It's useful to remember that the overwhelming bulk of imperial citizens are probably born to hive worlds like necromunda, with populations in the trillions, where life is a constant darwinian struggle in a toxic mutagenic environment and ever-shifting territorial claims by gangland leaders dominate the political landscape. Daemon worlds are unpleasant places, but some of 'em seem to have, like, ecologies, and farmlands, and pleasure cults, and functional industries. Sure, slavery, torture, massacres, civil war, disease and deformity are endemic, but there's almost no reason to suppose the average imperial citizen would be substantially worse off if the whole shebang were swallowed by the maelstrom. The social end results of the two philosophies appear to be almost indistinguishable.

...

Uh... The only habitable places in the warp (and that's stretching the definition of habitable to the point of transparency) are places infested with Chaos Marines, and those only exist because the Marines amuse the Chaos Gods. Direct exposure to the warp would rip a normal human's mind into tiny bits.