Clarisse Thorn

I write and speak about subcultures, sexuality, and new media.

Firstly, just in case anyone missed the update: my previous post was an April Fool’s joke. There is a long list of things that I don’t believe in that post, and I decided to write a post to cover the big ones.

Also, this picture is awesome:

Anyway! Things I Said In My April Fools Post That Contradict My Beliefs:

* The most important thing I don’t believe is that cheating is a good example of polyamorous leanings. While I’m sure some people resolve non-monogamous leanings by cheating, I see cheating in a monogamous relationship as a huge red flag, even if that person later decides to be polyamorous. This isn’t to say that people who cheat are Incontrovertibly Bad People, and I understand that relationships can be very complicated. I try to be empathic to people who feel trapped in relationships for whatever reason, even if they cheat. But the bottom line for me is that polyamory requires a lot of honesty and self-knowledge and integrity, and cheating is usually the opposite of those things.

I will freely admit that I have some intense personal baggage around this topic, but I’m not the only polyamorous person who espouses this view. Many poly people get especially pissed at people who cheat and then label “cheating” as polyamory; that is not okay. Here’s an excerpt from an excellent piece by Technomom called Coming Clean: Transitioning from Cheating to Polyamory:

Note: I use male pronouns in the following article for the sake of simplicity, but I’ve encountered both men and women in this situation. My advice is the same to both.

Frequently, newcomers to various poly groups introduce themselves with a tale of woe. Alas, after entering into a committed monogamous relationship (usually a marriage), the poor man has just discovered that he is, in fact, polyamorous. In most cases, the newcomer has already strayed into infidelity, and wishes to have his cake and eat it too now. He asks for advice regarding how he can convince his wife to accept the relationship with the new lover so that they can all live happily ever after.

The newcomer, who I’ll call Phil, is usually surprised to find that he is not, in fact, welcomed with open arms. Most of us are very hostile to people who cheat on their partners and call it polyamory, because that has absolutely nothing to do with how we are living our lives.

… In over 20 years of being polyamorous and knowing other poly people, I have never, not even once, known of anyone who has been able to move from an affair in a monogamous relationship to a healthy polyamorous relationship involving the same people. I’ve known of people who did cheat on their partners in monogamous relationships who later moved on to be polyamorous, but they did not salvage the original monogamous relationship.

I’ve known people whose spouses cheated on them in monogamous relationships who ended the monogamous relationship, then went on to explore polyamory very happily themselves. (That fact surprises a fair number of those seeking help in this situation.) What you have to realize is that the real issue between you and your spouse right now is not polyamory or sex. It is your betrayal of the agreements between the two of you. It is about your dishonesty and dishonorable behavior. You have broken her trust.

She then gives advice anyways, and I think it’s really good advice.

* My standards for consent and communication are not “too complex.” What does it even mean to have standards for consent and communication that are “too complex”?

* I don’t believe that “true submission” is about allowing your partner to dictate your life, and I think any statement about “what submission really means” is intensely problematic. Submission (and dominance, and every other type of S&M) is different for everyone; for more on this, there’s always my post BDSM Roles, “Topping From The Bottom,” and “Service Top”.

Sometimes, in the middle of a really intense BDSM scene, I will enjoy having my partner tell me to do something that I actually really hate … but this is not the norm for me, it requires a lot of trust and intense connection, and I certainly don’t think it’s a good norm for everyone. I explored this a bit in my post on Anger, Fear and Pain.

Also, while I accept that some people are cool with it if their partners demand major life changes as part of the S&M relationship … that’s not how I do things personally. And I have trouble imagining any situation in which I’d choose a man over my writing. If a guy really feels so threatened by my writing that he wants me to stop entirely, then we are a terrible match and I’m kind of surprised we started dating in the first place.

* I love the Beatles, but I was always skeptical of the quotation “Love is the answer.” I mean, love is awesome, don’t get me wrong; I’m very pro-love and pro-empathy. But … “the answer”? The answer to what? Does this mean we never have to work on our relationships or make space for each other because love will magically make everything work? My most problematic ex-boyfriend once told me “I just want to feel like you love me more than you love yourself,” which was the point that I should’ve walked out the door. Anyone who says something like that does not have your best interests at heart.

* Finally, “You have the second prettiest hair I’ve ever seen” is just not a very good neg, at least not for me. I like my negs served with epoxy, thank you.

The image at the top of this post shows a classical Greek-style picture of a couple at a table, except that the woman is smoking a cigarette and the man is reading a newspaper and the table is kind of Victorian-looking and there are coffee cups. I have no idea where it came from but I love it so much.

[…] If not, you really should because she keeps posting really fantastic stuff. Here is a quote from the most recent post: My most problematic ex-boyfriend once told me “I just want to feel like you love me more than […]

I never was on to believe polyamorous relationships could ever really work. I had a friend who got involved with one, only to have his wife leave him for their new partner.
As Clarisse says f’d up things can happen in any type of relationship. I think people get are extra scared is because in a poly relationship they think that its an automatic invitation for one of the three to come in and whisk away with the second person, leaving the third person hanging.

Actually you might even say it could be victim blaming. When a poly relationship ends with person 1 and 2 leaving person 3 behind I think people wonder, “Why did he/she get into that relationship in the first place? They should have known better than to bring in a third person.”

They don’t see it as 2 people leaving a 3rd. They see it as that 3rd “asking for it” by bringing in that extra person.

@Clarisse and Danny – Yea, I see what your saying. I guess you could say I’m biased because of the depression my friend went through. Wasn’t his fault, nor his wife’s nor their new partner, just the way things go sometimes. Doesn’t make his sadness any less sucky though.

It can certainly work with the right attitude and understanding when going into such a relationship. I don’t know, as brave as I like to think I am, I don’t think I’d have the courage to give one a go.

I recently had a couple of play dates with a girl who I understood to be single. We talked about my poly dynamics and the details of my partners, and I didn’t ask detailed enough questions from there about her involvements. I just assumed that she was single from the context of the conversation and the situation, and the lack of given response.

After the second time we played, which was actually a threesome with a mutual friend, it came up that she had a boyfriend. And that her boyfriend and I share mutual friends. Her explanation of their dynamic is that they have a she can do whatever she wants as long as he doesn’t hear about it arrangement. Which really makes me uncomfortable. First her delivery of the explanation felt non genuine. It didn’t feel like the truth – which strongly backed me off anyway. But even if it is, that kind of situation is anathema to my beliefs around enthusiastic consent. And since several mutual friends know that we’ve been involved – it’s put a bunch of us in an awkward situation. One that I certainly wouldn’t have entered into knowing the facts.

And even aside from all those things, if I can’t trust someone to volunteer their relationship status, and feel like I can’t believe their explanations, how can I trust them to have integrity around the other trust dynamics of kink/sex/etc.

re: Love is the answer – I think it’s the answer in the way that driving to the hospital is the answer to a medical emergency. It’s a good, often the best possible first step, but things that come afterward are what actually makes the thing work. For life advice from the Beatles, Id much rather go with ‘Come together’.

The negs thing is one of those things that I have a really hard time with. I loathe the intent of going into a conversation with the intent of playing on someone’s insecurities to manipulate them into something. But I engage in a lot of friendly teasing. Making fun of each other is just a standard part of my social interaction. I’ve never done it with the intention of it being a ‘neg’. I am always slightly concerned that it might be seen that way though. Or that it might result in being that kind of manipulative gesture despite my intentions.

“And even aside from all those things, if I can’t trust someone to volunteer their relationship status, and feel like I can’t believe their explanations, how can I trust them to have integrity around the other trust dynamics of kink/sex/etc.

This makes me think of Clarisse’s musings on strategic ambiguity from the PUA book and the idea that there may be different preferences for it. Which I found fascinating especially in comparison to the problems with enthusiastic consent.

Personally I am not a huge fan of vaugeness in terms of the other partners. Husband and Boyfriend get along so well they ignore me and get their video game nerd on, the partners I’ve had interest in who prefer the whole lets not talk about the other man scenario never work out. Of course that guy also was treating the whole situation like it was a competition which was just weird. I just haven’t ever sustained feelings for someone who doesn’t like Husband very much.

I will say though that as a lady I am always nervous when disclosing my marital status, because the idea that I am somehow his property or taken is such a huge part of our culture. I have also been seriously pissed off by mens who treated the communication in the situation like they were going to “secure permission” from Husband. He, darling feminist with gorgeous black curls that he is, laughs and informs them that I will choose. Course that hasn’t happend in a while and lately he only uses that to rebuff the TRUE DOM™ who wants a chance at his “pet.”

@Scootah — Well, a neg can be manipulative or non-manipulative or manipulative in different ways. I don’t see much difference between what I once described as aggressive teasing when I was younger, and what PUAs describe as negs. But I think there are ways it can get out of hand, as some commenters are exploring in detail on the Theory of an SM Scene Gone Wrong thread.

@Ms. Virtue — Personally I am not a huge fan of vaugeness in terms of the other partners. Husband and Boyfriend get along so well they ignore me and get their video game nerd on, the partners I’ve had interest in who prefer the whole lets not talk about the other man scenario never work out. Of course that guy also was treating the whole situation like it was a competition which was just weird. I just haven’t ever sustained feelings for someone who doesn’t like Husband very much.

I recently dealt with a poly situation where I felt like there were weird competitive dynamics right under the surface, but I was the only person who was acknowledging them, and I got the sense that the other people involved might actually be enjoying them. It was really frustrating and eventually I just walked away from the whole thing. I think competition is a factor in a lot of poly situations (though not all) and should be acknowledged … if only to manage it and keep everyone feeling okay about things. I even think it’s cool if people are enjoying the competition as long as everyone’s consenting, but without any negotiation people are much less likely to be consenting, so that’s another reason to put the dynamics out in the open.

So in short, I think that the situation Ms. Virtue is describing sounds like someone who’s trying to covertly negotiate a competitive situation (maybe without even realizing what he’s doing), but without open communication … and with partners who aren’t actually into it. Which is bound to fail!

So far the “gotchas” in the comments don’t do much to convince me that poly is sensible. Just to get a little “meta” about it… I don’t think it’s being honest about people’s ability to be honest.

For example… Three people… First one thinks It was a mistake to ever let the third one in…. Second one thinks it’s two people leaving the first… But the third one had it as their plan all along. I see that played out all the time in monogamous relationships and see no reason why poly relationships would be immune. It is rather arrogant to think oneself to be such an expert judge of other people’s character that they would actually be able to tell what is really happening.

In monogamous relationship, I often see weird contradictory things wherein the more trusting person gets accused of being controlling and is abandoned for a partner who is actually the controlling manipulative liar. I have seen this time after time after time when cheating leads to a breakup with the party being cheated on in favor of a new relationship consisting of the two cheaters. Cheaters often portray the one good-faith partner as the devil when they themselves are the ones who shouldn’t be trusted. So somehow, I just don’t think these dynamics improve much in a poly relationship. I mean, unless you are one of those expert judges of character who only ever associates with true saints.

Dungone, do you have any experience with polyamory or are you just “somehow” “thinking”?

No one is saying poly is easy, and no one is saying poly is immune to bad dynamics. For some people, poly works really well. If you have no experience with it and aren’t open to thinking that it could work, and if you’re going to make statements about how poly is not “sensible” and throw around implications that polyamorists are generally on the same level of honesty as cheaters … then I don’t even know why you would bother talking to my commentariat about it.

Clarice, it depends on what you mean by trying it. If we don’t count cheating, or something strictly sexual like the occasional threesome, or having multiple fuck buddies who actually want something else, or when it is a form of revenge on an ex, or where likeminded people havent hurt dozens of averse people on their way to finding one another… then the big question isn’t whether or not I have ever tried it, but whether anyone else actually has.

That was my comment. If poly people frown on poly relationships that make poly look bad, then how can it ever be proven that real poly relationships actually exist? Why should anyone else believe them?

That’s basically saying that anything that isn’t consistently and faithfully monogamous is, by definition, polyamorous. Which is kind of like saying that anything that isn’t textbook, consensual, single-partnered, genital-to-genital heterosexual sex is BDSM.

If that’s your position, then you really need to educate yourself on what polyamory is.

Being single and not getting laid might qualify as inconsistent monogamy, as would a series of independent, non-overlapping relationships. I find the idea of having a relationship with 2+ people and calling it monogamy to be inherently contradictory regardless of the level of honesty and the type of power dynamics involved.

This is basically my problem here. I’ve got no problem with polyamory. I have a problem with what smells like an ideology to me. I wasn’t going to say anything about polyamory at all except for all the talk about those supposedly deluded cheaters who think they’re being polyamorous, etc., and don’t they understand that what they’re doing is some sort of dysfunctional monogamy because polyamory requires immaculate conception.

Which is kind of like saying that anything that isn’t textbook, consensual, single-partnered, genital-to-genital heterosexual sex is BDSM.

Actually, the opposite is more fitting. BDSM has specific performative requirements and bylaws, as does monogamy. Talking about inconsistent monogamous relationships is sort of like talking about inconsistent BDSM where people regularly ignore safewords.

don’t they understand that what they’re doing is some sort of dysfunctional monogamy

I’m assuming you’re referring to the bit that I quoted from Technomom, above? If someone is in a relationship that’s supposed to be monogamous, and cheats, then that’s dysfunctional monogamy. The original post very plainly described this kind of dysfunctional monogamy. If someone’s in a relationship that’s supposed to be well-negotiated polyamory, and cheats, then that’s dysfunctional polyamory. The original post doesn’t describe dysfunctional polyamory, because it’s not relevant to the conversation, but plenty of poly writers describe dysfunctional polyamory. And by the way, the polyamorous groups that I’m familiar with are really not okay with cheating in polyamory, no more than they’re okay with cheating in monogamy.

because polyamory requires immaculate conception.

Seriously, dude, where are you getting this? Your comments are full of assumptions about polyamorous perspectives. I don’t know why this “smells like an ideology” to you, but it sounds to me like your “ideology” problem comes from experiences that have nothing to do with this conversation.

The down side [to polyamory] is that you have more than two people involved in your relationship.

That is both a blessing and a source of stress. Romantic relationships come with a certain amount of tension built in; I’ve never known anybody, anywhere, who’s never had even a single argument with their lover.

Add another person to the mix, and your potential for disagreements and arguments and tension goes up. A lot. Add two more people to the mix, it goes up even further. The more people you have involved in a romantic relationship, the greater the potential for problems.

It’s not necessarily all bad. Sometimes, having people who you can turn to when you have problems is a big blessing. On the whole, however, managing more than one romantic relationship is, not to put too fine a point on it, harder than managing only one.

It is incumbent on any people in a polyamorous relationship to take care that they follow the rules, and make sure everyone’s needs are met. Without that, the relationship will fail–just as a monogamous relationship will.

BDSM has specific performative requirements and bylaws, as does monogamy.

Precisely my point: so does polyamory.

Those performative requirements and bylaws are precisely what you’re brushing aside as ideology.

And as for “Talking about inconsistent monogamous relationships is sort of like talking about inconsistent BDSM where people regularly ignore safewords”? Yes, it is. Because inconsistent BDSM where people ignore safewords isn’t BDSM. It’s abuse.

Little off topic, as your post just linked to the coming clean article, but it was my perception that the article was written with a very angry tone. I disagree with some of the more minor points of the article but I wanted to share, what seems to be a glaring inconsistency to me, the way I interpret the article.

In context, there’s no contradiction. The “All Your Fault” was in reference to whether or not the person in the existing relationship shared any blame, whereas the second statement was about the other person involved in the infidelity.

I do have my problems with that position, the biggest being that it seems to assume that an exit is available if the relationship dynamic isn’t healthy — which isn’t always the case. (Just as statements such as “be ready to stay elsewhere” assume this kind of thing.) But there’s no contradiction.

About Clarisse

On the other hand, I also wrote a different book about the subculture of men who trade tips on how to seduce and manipulate women:

I give great lectures on my favorite topics. I've spoken at a huge variety of places — academic institutions like the University of Chicago; new media conventions like South By Southwest; museums like the Museum of Sex; and lots of others.

I established myself by creating this blog. I don't update the blog much anymore, but you can still read my archives. My best writing is available in my books, anyway.

I've lived in Swaziland, Greece, Chicago, and a lot of other places. I've worked in game design, public health, and bookstores. Now I live in San Francisco, and I make my living with content strategy and user research.