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I don't know how you can separate construction cost from cost of the piano. One company might be able to get materials less expensively, while another company might have cheaper labor, whilst a third might pay the same for materials and labor but be more labor-intensive. Anyway here goes:

People here have often suggested to 'bargain'for price. Which is fine.

But what's the 'level playing field' here ?

For those who have watched this Forum for a while, there are price levels which are, by and large, recurring. Should a Yamaha C3 cost$15.000,20.000 or $25.000? And why?

Believe me,before ANY piano is even manufactured, the guys in the boardroom puttheir figures together. It's done quite professionally based NOT ONLY on actual cost but very much also on 'image' on how much this piano will eventually sell.

Derick
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York

I haven't had a good whipping in some time, so I'll take a stab at it...

Mason Hamlin 7' - $45K

Steinway B - $50K

Yamaha C6/C7 - $24K/$29K

'German made' Hamburgh Steinway $60K Boesendorfer $62K

Petrof 7'9" - $40K

I feel those prices are fair because I wouldn't look back if I purchased those pianos for those prices. Of course, that takes a lot into account including personal preference and the name on the fallboard which counts for something (call me shallow if you like).

Now as for pianos I haven't played:

Bechstein (any model) $15k

There, that ought to have Larry tugging at his leash.

Derick

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Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

6. CW190 - one you didn't ask for(but you should have), 20k (and I can show you the bid sheet). One of THE best values out there.

7. AF(German) 6' - around 24k.

8. Bechstein Academy model - again a wild guess, but maybe Larry would sell me one for 32k.

9. Estonia 6'3" and Petrof 6'3" - I lumped them together because I figure the pricing is similar - I've seen a 5'8" Petrof for as low as 15k so I'm going to guess around 20k, maybe a scooch (technical term)more.

10. Chinese 6' or so - between 7 and 8k, the older the Chinese model the less the money. Chinese pianos are getting better, but the prices are rising.

11. Korean 6 footer (unenhanced) - I found one for 9k, but that was/is unusual. Say about 11k.

12. Korean 6 footer (enhanced version) - about 12.5k.

Note: I think most of the above represents ballpark street pricing. I hope I'm fairly close, but I did this off the top of my head.

If we use Norbert's scenario about each costing the same to build, so we are essentially arguing build quality vs pricing level. My conclusions are:

1. The M&H and the Steinway are overpriced. The Steinway much more so. I think an "A" should sell in the mid to high 20s to be entirely competitive with the world market.

2. The Japanese are overpriced, particularly Yamaha. Lower the prices by about 2k or so.

3. Charles Walter - worth every penny.

4. SP - a sleeper piano, also worth close to what it sells for.

5. The Koreans - worth the asking price.

6. The Chinese - actually underpriced. They are trying to increase market share. Look for prices to increase as quality goes up.

7. The Germans - most are overpriced. They are wonderful instruments, but can anyone actually justify the cost of a new 6' Bosie?

8. Petrofs and Estonias - another pair of pianos that are worth the selling price.

These opinions and $1 will buy a cup of coffee at participating McDonalds, nationwide. :p :p

Others.......Fazioli - nothing over 40k, Bosendorfer - the same as a Steinway.

I don't know anything about production costs but I basically think the very high end pianos (Steinway, Bose, Fazioli, Bechstein) are lovely instruments but an absolute rip off. There is no way, NO WAY a model D Steinway is worth well over double the price of a concert grand Estonia. Or any piano is worth more than about 40k let alone Fazioli prices! Lovely pianos but it's really just about exclusivity/snob value at that price. You could buy a house for the price of a Fazioli. I mean it's just a bit vulgar.

Actually, I want, and own, 2 Yamahas. While most of the frequent "posters" encourage looking at a variety of brands, several also like to disparage Yamaha, seemingly at every opportunity. I understand you may not like the sound of a Yamaha; I do. I play mostly jazz, and the bright sound "sings" to me. Maybe it is the mass production and marketing, to the near exclusion of the smaller companies, that causes you to defend the little guy. Fine. Just understand that I have played most of the brands listed, and still chose Yamaha - because it's the piano I like. It's a beautiful world out there - and aren't we lucky to have so many choices. I just thought I'd defend mine.

Derick
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York

Just something for everyone to think about... An average family will buy a new car every 6 years and pay $25,000 (as of 2001).

The car will break down, rust, require gobs of insurance and be made mostly by machine.

Many of the pianos mentioned above are hand-crafted, will last a lifetime, won't rust, will need only minor repair and could be insured for a lifetime for a fraction of what it costs to insure a car during a 6 year period.

If people get $5K knocked off the price of a Chevy they'd kiss the dealer and throw him a party. But the 'fair' prices mentioned above for pianos are far more than $5K off the mark and average less than $25,000.

I'm not trying to be wise, but I do think there is a difference between fair and wish-full thinking!

Derick

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Derick ]

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Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

Cars are much more of a necessity for most people. They are more complex machines than pianos. They are used more regularly and subjected to much more punishment than a piano. They rust because, guess what, they get left outside in the rain. They have, in short, a much greater propensity to go wrong than a piano.

Pianos sit in a living room, protected from the elements. They get played maybe once or twice a week (if you're going to use national averages for cars, then let's be honest about most pianos, not just the ones owned by devotees here.) I don't think your analogy is a fair one.

And where Faziolis are concerned, most peoples houses last them a lifetime, and then some more

I wasn't implying that dealers either are making big margins on the top end pianos.

And an Estonia is a superb hand crafted piano that manages to be reasonably priced.

And, just for the record, I know a concert pianist whose had a top of the range German upright for ten years (bought new) and it's absolutely knackered. Admitedly he plays it hard, and for a few hours a day. Just thought I'd mention it. And no I'm not revealing the brand (but don't worry Larry, it's not a Bechstein ;)).

Derick
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York

Diarmuid,

I guess my interpretation of Norbert's question was more along the lines of what would you, as a pianist, who knows these instruments, think is fair to pay. And perhaps that is how you interpreted it as well.

I'm not knocking your prices, I think they are wonderul, I just don't think they are realistic.

Well Norbert seems to be up to something and I'm very curious as to what he's going to spring on us!

Derick

_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

Like I said, I know nothing about production costs, the piano industry, dealers costs e.t.c. And it's not fair to criticise me for being unrealistic when we were solicited for an uninformed, and essentially fun opinion. If you want people to have a wild stab at something (and throw in a bit of attitude for fun), don't go tut tutting at them when they do. It's kind of patronising

Okay, I guess I'll bite. These are some prices I was able to wrangle out of some of the dealers in my area within the last year. It should be pointed out that I have official status as the world's ABSOLUTE WORST haggler/negotiator, and as such these are prices that were offered with no di-ckering (had to trick the censor-bot) of any sort on my part. That would make them, IMHO, fair to the dealer :rolleyes: but nevertheless seemed fair to me:

Yamaha C3 - $19,800

Yamaha C5 - $21,500

Kawai RX2 - $18,900

Kawai RX3 - $20,800

Estonia 6'3" - $19,300

Petrof III - $19,800

Of course, this really doesn't do much in the long run, since piano prices seem to display variations based on geographical locations (why does everything[/b] seem to cost more in the Northeast?) and dealer overhead.

Make whatever you will of these prices. All I did was ask a few questions and the going rate for the pianos listed above. It seems that they fall pretty much in line what I have heard others negotiated down to, so I guess it's either all in your attitude or the tactics of the sales staff!

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Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

This isn't worth pursuing, it really isn't but calling something an opinion doesn't preclude it from being a criticism, or having critical overtones.

Hmmm...I'm considering blackballing you at the next secret meeting of the Inner Circle Derick. Lets face it, the Alpha Member's still growling. It'll be the wilderness for you sonny, as a penance for your effrontery