On behalf of the Disciples of Ston, I issue the following condemnation:

Concord is murdering thousands!

Concord shares culpability in the deaths of thousands of crew men and woman through the destruction of capsuleer vessels in violation of Concord regulations. While we understand the need for law enforcement and the need for stiff consequences to the violation of Concord regulations, it is the non-clone crews that suffer the most. When Concord destroys a capsuleer ship, the capsuleer escapes via his or her pod. The crew is killed. Concord ostensibly becomes the killer of thousands through its law enforcement actions. Many of these crew are poor, desperate people who sign on as crew members not knowing what the duty entails. Once in space, there is no escape. Capsuleers break the law, non-clone crews, die.

Concord possesses both the power and the technology to disable and confiscate capsuleer vessels, force the ejection of the capsuleer from the vessel, and save the crew from certain death. The destruction of non-clone crews must stop now! Concord’s actions are uncivilized and barbaric and need immediate change.

Concord can punish the capsuleer who is violating the law without killing the ship’s crew.

The Disciples of Ston issue this condemnation and call for immediate action.

If they destroy the Capsuleer ship doing the agression a crew dies. If they don't, the agressing Capsuleer will kill a ships crew. Either way death occurs. CONCORD retaliation at least deals a blow to a Capsuleers wallet. Granted it's not that much of a effect but still better than nothing.

Edited by: Dilaro thagriin on 10/07/2011 01:39:36When in space, any ships crew, be they on a capsuleer vessel or otherwise, is under the direct care of their captain. Their lives, their actions and any reaction caused by their actions are wholly their captain's responsibility.

Should the captain provoke a response from CONCORD, then the loss of life is on the hands of the captain, who knew what the reaction of CONCORD would be, rather than on the hands of the enforcement officers sent in response to such illegal activity.

CONCORD standing orders state that acts that break CONCORD directives, are to be met with the 'immediate & non-negotiable destruction of the offender's vessel.' While some may see this as a somewhat totalitarian measure, the simple fact remains that there is only one thing that the vast majority of capsuleers notice. ISK.

Capsuleer crews are paid well, and know that their lives may be cut short at any time. Any who sign on with a capsuleer understand this, and understand, usually, that the capsuleer is somewhat removed from the concept of human life. Sometimes, the choice to allow their fates to rest in the hands of a capsuleer is a bad one.

To put all this another way...

Ston, you travel the stars, watching as capsuleers destroy hundreds of ships on a daily basis. capsuleers destroying non-capsule equipped ships. Ships that have a higher crew requirement than most capsuleer ships...

yet you condemn those who provide security, for doing their job? Do you also condemn any capsuleer who has fought against the Serpentis? the Covenant? EoM?

Capsuleers kill millions, simply for the ISK they can get from their agents, CONCORD, and the market. CONCORD respond to illegal activity, yes their actions cause deaths, but on a much smaller scale than those you have made a career out of stealing from.

Well, Ston, the reaction was as predicted. First, the claim that crews always know what they are getting into. False. Second, that Concord's actions prevent worse action. Half truth. Concorde has the ability to not just destroy vessels, but to disable vessels if they so choose. No other force in New Eden is better equipped to respond in such rapid fashion as Concord. The capsuleer's loss would be the same if the ship was confiscated. Save the crew. Third, greater destruction is used to justify lesser destruction. Just because some non-capsuleer ships have huge crew compliments, etc, does not mean that what Concord is doing with regard to capsuleer ship isn't a tragedy. It is! Fourth, it is all the captain's responsibility. Non-sequitor. History is full of the masses of souls crying for justice against the rationale that the ISK stops at some straw man; in this case the captain. Concord is responsible for what Concord does. It is high time to question the policies and procedures of this policing giant for the sake of many lives.

Having personally suffered by this overt action I cannot agree more that Concord is and has always abused its power. I had a mear accidental misfire which was responded by immediate execution of my battleships 6000 crew. Granted it was a stupid mistake, but it was only my 3rd month as a capsuleer and these mistakes are bound to happen.

Concords drones arrive immediately to disable my ship while their police ships arrived. The funny thing was I was in the middle of fighting Nation ships in which the concord police and the Nation ships simply stood around watching eachother. They never opened fire and in fact lingered around the site for long enough to be more than a little suspicious.

Police is important, but so is asking questions, something in which the omnipotent concord rarely do.

Originally by:Manwe TodakoWell, Ston, the reaction was as predicted. First, the claim that crews always know what they are getting into. False.

How so? the crews on any ship have signed a contract, CONCORD law pertaining to illegal activity by capsuleers is widely known, and the vast majaority of crews would know this. It is not a difficult fact to remember, and CONCORD's reaction to all capsuleer offences is the same, so there can be no confusion.

Quote:Second, that Concord's actions prevent worse action. Half truth. Concord has the ability to not just destroy vessels, but to disable vessels if they so choose. No other force in New Eden is better equipped to respond in such rapid fashion as Concord. The capsuleer's loss would be the same if the ship was confiscated. Save the crew.

As can be seen in low and null security systems, CONCORD vessels are, in and of themselves, no stronger than our own, and in many cases, less so. CONCORD does not have infinite manpower, or vessels, and if they lost vessels during their enforcement of high security laws, they would quickly lose the ability to enforce these laws.

CONCORD's actions are, by far, the most reasonable and logical actions to take, they have the ability to turn all defenses on a ship off, therefore making the vessel they are targetting easy to destroy. however, that does not ensure that any allies of the criminal in question are also affected, destruction of the offender's vessel is the safest option for CONCORD and those the offender is attacking.

Compromising a ship, electronically, to the degree that you can remotely eject the pod, takes time, and time increases the risk of an enforcement action.

Quote:Third, greater destruction is used to justify lesser destruction. Just because some non-capsuleer ships have huge crew compliments, etc, does not mean that what Concord is doing with regard to capsuleer ship isn't a tragedy. It is!

I did not, at any point, say this. however now you bring it up, no, it is not a tragedy for thousands of criminals to be brought to justice by the law enforcement division of CONCORD. 'I was just following orders' has not been a valid legal defence for centuries.

Quote:Fourth, it is all the captain's responsibility. Non-sequitor. History is full of the masses of souls crying for justice against the rationale that the ISK stops at some straw man; in this case the captain. Concord is responsible for what Concord does. It is high time to question the policies and procedures of this policing giant for the sake of many lives.

a 'Straw man'? you amuse me Manwe.

The captain of a vessel makes decisions pertaining to the actions the vessel will take.In the case of a capsuleer, they, in general, directly control a large percentage of these actions.

i'll simplify this just for you.

the law states 'if you breach CONCORD law, your ship will be destroyed'

it is the capsuleer's decision whether or not to order his ship and crew to break the law.

The crew are not innocent of the breach of CONCORD law, they would have been implicitly involved, whether they are involved in the use of the weaponry on the vessel, or merely watching the nano-cycling on the armour hardeners. They took part, which makes them also culpable.

the condemnation made by yourself and ston basically seems to read as 'only the lead criminal, the boss, should be penalised. His minions, lackeys, and hanger's on should be allowed to go free'

That doesn't make for a very good legal system, as stated above 'i was just following orders' cannot be a valid defence.

all that said though, is it really a shock that two thieves do not understand the nuances of the legal system, or it's enforcement.

Originally by:Thgil GoldcoreHaving personally suffered by this overt action I cannot agree more that Concord is and has always abused its power. I had a mear accidental misfire which was responded by immediate execution of my battleships 6000 crew. Granted it was a stupid mistake, but it was only my 3rd month as a capsuleer and these mistakes are bound to happen.

Concords drones arrive immediately to disable my ship while their police ships arrived. The funny thing was I was in the middle of fighting Nation ships in which the concord police and the Nation ships simply stood around watching eachother. They never opened fire and in fact lingered around the site for long enough to be more than a little suspicious.

Police is important, but so is asking questions, something in which the omnipotent concord rarely do.

a 'misfire'... really? knowing what i do about capsule and ship systems i have a question or two.

did the warning that you were about to breach CONCORD law, that your vessel is hardcoded to give you prior to you performing the action that had your vessel destroyed, not hint that you were about to do something stupid?

or did you just ignore the warning and choose to continue without reading it?

you cannot blame CONCORD for your own idiocy. That is wholly down to you.

Dilaro thagriin, I take responsibility for my misfire naturally. However that is not my point. I was citing a specific case of Concords abuses. I notice you convinenetly make me out to be a straw man while ignoring the actual problem... IE Concord ships ignoring the nation ships conducting illegal activity (for that matter the nation ships ignoring the concord ships).

For the record I was in a fleet with my sister. We had been in the same corp for a long time but where undergoing a corporation change. Concord has no problem with same fleet and corp dealing damage, however she had left the corp (without telling me, although we were planning on leaving that day anyway) about an hour before we went on a mission. my smartbomb lightly hit her and concord murdered my crew. A simple rookie mistake, obviously a simple com would have cleared it up.

Originally by:Thgil GoldcoreDilaro thagriin, I take responsibility for my misfire naturally. However that is not my point. I was citing a specific case of Concords abuses. I notice you convinenetly make me out to be a straw man while ignoring the actual problem... IE Concord ships ignoring the nation ships conducting illegal activity (for that matter the nation ships ignoring the concord ships).

For the record I was in a fleet with my sister. We had been in the same corp for a long time but where undergoing a corporation change. Concord has no problem with same fleet and corp dealing damage, however she had left the corp (without telling me, although we were planning on leaving that day anyway) about an hour before we went on a mission. my smartbomb lightly hit her and concord murdered my crew. A simple rookie mistake, obviously a simple com would have cleared it up.

You discharged an area-of-effect weapon in high-security space - you did what most people are weary of utilizing this weapon-type in high-sec for; your weapon impacted on a 'neutral' vessel that was to close when you used this indiscriminating weapon.

CONCORD can not be held accountable for your STUPIDITY - they can not be demanded to stop and figure out, in every single case, if this was accidental or a deliberate attack with malicious intentions. Pilot, you made a foolish mistake - if I recall properly you are even warned when activating this weapon, that it will harm anything cought in it's area of effect, even neutral cloaked vessels that might be in range - and chose to ignore the warning.

You and you alone, regardless of how or who or why or when, fired your weapon after a warning was issued, and you alone are to blame for the loss of your crew and the grief you have inflicted in the next-of-kin that remain. Your argument against CONCORD is utterly meaningless and flawed.

*EDIT* ((Bringing up the 'CONOCRD don't shoot sanshas/vice versa' argument is pointless, NO NPC faction ever fire on another regardless of standing, this is a known flaw, or perhaps intentional feature, of the game mechanics. Arguing about it IC is utterly pointless as a result; we all know that CONCORD and the sansha's, indeed, most NPC faction ships, should be shooting one another if they meet each other in space. They don't. Game-mechanic fault, ONLY. Leave it lie.))

I dont believe at any point I have denied my mistake. As noted, it was very early in my career, nearly two years ago. A few thousand deaths on my hands are a fairly good learning tool. However, My point has nothing to do with this case (an example for anyone who can pay attention). My point is that Concord capsuleer laws are absolutely broken and does more to harm than help. I agree with Ston that action should and must be taken.

I do not call for their removal. Police, law, and order are necessarily. But something is seriously wrong. I don't accept 'cant be bothered' as a valid excuse for murder either. It shocks me that you apparently do.

Dilaro,My spirit grieves for you. What if for one moment, you allowed yourself to question the status quo? What if for one moment you allowed your heart to grieve over those who have died; even over those you have killed. To be so intentionally naive to believe in the justice of a system that institutionalizes murder in the support of the greed of a minority is to repeat one of the gravest travesties of history.

It is time for you and all capsuleers to stop asking Concord to wash the blood off your hands with more blood.

Ston, when did i say that CONCORD 'wash the blood of capsuleer hands with more blood' ?

seriously.

i said, CONCORD react to criminal activity.

CONCORD destroy the vessels of criminals.

The penalty for capsuleers who, within CONCORD secured space, engage in criminal activity is simple, and widely known.

you seem to claim that the crews of these ships are innocent. That is pure fantasy.

to put this another way. Do you shed tears when you are stealing from the wreckage of a battleship in deep space, do you pay any attention to the corpses bouncing off your shields?

or is it just the fact that, when CONCORD choose to destroy a ship, it is your fellow thieves and various other forms of criminal that are dying?

when the penalty for a crime is well known, and will cost the lives of your crew, perhaps... just perhaps, you should lay the blame at the feet of the one who PERPETRATED the crime, not those who enforce the laws that keep high security space a safe place to live in.

(well, as safe as it can be.)

Now... to the rest of your points.

Naive? you seem to think that it would be better to let criminals who work for capsuleers go free, just because they were doing the bidding of a being who will awake in a clone.

let us look at the reasons CONCORD will fire upon, and destroy, a vessel shall we?

as far as i know, CONCORD will only respond in such a way if non-sanctioned combat activity occurs. be it against another ship, a station, or even a navigation beacon.

the actions of CONCORD are: immediate and non-negotiable destruction of the offender's vessel.

now. Since the reaction of CONCORD is fast, usually they will arrive in the combat area before the vessel being attacked is destroyed. but you suggest that instead of immediately destroying the aggressor, they should stop, wait for their electronic assault against the vessel to eject the pod, and then confiscate the vessel.

as i mentioned earlier THIS WOULD TAKE TIME. Time that the unfortunate victim of the non-sanctioned attack does not have.

by your method, thousands more would die, thousands of innocents.

i prefer that the criminals die, in fire, than CONCORD hesitates and allows thousands of innocents to die at the hand of the aforementioned criminals.

now. one more point...

Quote:It is time for you and all capsuleers to stop asking Concord to wash the blood off your hands with more blood.

where did you get this idea? I cannot think of a single capsuleer who has asked for this.

perhaps you should consider the purpose of CONCORD, and the reason they destroy ships.

then take a heavy dose of reality, something it seems you and your disciples are lacking.

Enough of this. CONCORD do a good job, which keeps many trillions of baseliners and tens of thousands of capsuleers safe. You are a self professed criminal, who is saying that the 'police' are bad guys.

so you will have to forgive me if i do not trust anything you say.... difficult to trust a thief.

Dilaro,Many words do not strengthen your case. Yes the Disciples pay great attention to the corpses. We collect them, preserve them, and try to return them for proper rites. Perhaps, Dilaro, you can help us with this mission. We seek to bring dignity to the death of even criminals. If you find corpses and wouldn't mind holding them for us in the nearest high sec station, we will come and get them and try to return them to their owners for proper rites.

These corpses bouncing off your canopy represent someone's son or daughter, husband or wife, mother or father, brother or sister, friend and even enemy. When, Dilaro, we can learn to return dignity to even our enemy in death, civilization may again return to our cultures.

Concord can help us take the first steps by a simple act of valuing life enough to find ways to preserve it.

So a question to you "disciples"; how many of your crews are killed when you intentionally criminally flag yourself by ore stealing and you get your ships destroyed? When you know full well that the vast majority of those you steal from will take the opportunity to fire on you, I'd say it's you who are playing fast and loose with the lives of others.

NICK BETE OPENS MOUTH, INSERTS FOOTIf you took a second or two to check out your facts, you wouldn't have said something so absurd. The Disciples of Ston fly only disarmed rookie ships. These ships have no crew other than the clone pilot. The risks we take, we take alone, Mr. Bete. When the Disciples make a statement about violence, we do so from a non-violent pacifist stance. Now a question for you...How many crews have you slaughtered?It amazes me that all this effort is being made to defer this issue. Could it be that you all are beginning to feel the responsibility for your violence?

Criminal denounces law enforcement as evil.Subsequently mocked by peers.

...................

taking a look at the above posts, there seems to be some disagreement as to the nature of CONCORD's actions.

Though this is to be expected.

Criminal elements across the cluster see CONCORD and DED's actions as murder, as it is their kind being killed, whereas those who stay within the confines of the law see the actions of CONCORD as little more than bringing criminals to final justice.

simply put, a dead criminal can no longer break the law.

I suppose it all boils down to whether or not you believe that justice is worth the effort. It is obvious that CONCORD and the empires that make up it's numbers do believe this.

If you do not like the way that the law in enforced, then nullsec is that way ---> Go and make use of it.

Is the conscience of the capsuleer so perverted, that justice would be defined as the outright killing of thousands upon thousands of mortal human beings hour by hour, day by day, without end?

Here is your logic at best: A crew member of a capsuleer ship becomes, by default, guilty of the crimes of the captain and therefore is worthy of death. No pity, no consideration, no mercy. And you call this "justice well done" by Concord.

Is the conscience of the capsuleer so perverted, that justice would be defined as the outright killing of thousands upon thousands of mortal human beings hour by hour, day by day, without end?

Here is your logic at best: A crew member of a capsuleer ship becomes, by default, guilty of the crimes of the captain and therefore is worthy of death. No pity, no consideration, no mercy. And you call this "justice well done" by Concord.

Is your conscience that hard?

Disciple Momaki (If indeed that is your proper address),

You have chosen time and again to disregard the valid arguments against your supposed moral argument. While the loss of life in any given situation is regrettable, CONCORD outlines its standard operating procedure pretty clearly and follows it.

Furthermore, CONCORD ships are not piloted by capsuleers, so every moment they are deployed, their crews are at risk. As has already been mentioned, the longer they stay deployed, the greater the risk of retaliation by any associates of the criminally flagged vessel, resulting in the loss of even more lives.

You are also forcibly choosing to ignore the fact that a ship needs a crew to function, even a capsuleer controlled ship requires a crew to function. Yes, that's right, to function. That means that those aboard the vessel that you are supposedly claiming are guilty simply by association are actually involved in the criminal infraction. Period.

I take extreme care to avoid the loss of life aboard any vessel I pilot and I take caution to avoid breaking CONCORD law, which would also risk the lives of my crew. The fact remains, however, that a ship will not function without its crew, regardless of the capsuleer.

Now, to answer your questions. To the first: Most capsuleers engage in killing thousands upon thousands of mortal human beings hour by hour, day by day, without end as a standard practice. You're not likely to find a great deal of remorse from them.

Secondly, it is not a matter of "is your conscience that hard" it's a matter of understanding that guilt lay with the entire crew aboard the vessel, as all parts of the ship require crew to function. Your demand for an apology from CONCORD is based on the fact that you would rather they risk their own crews in order to save the lives of a crew that knowingly and willingly engaged in criminal activities at the behest of their captain.

It is unfortunate that mistakes sometimes occur, such as the case mentioned above with the smartbomb, but those mistakes are the fault of the captain not taking the necessary precautions and/or being careless, not CONCORD for sticking to their SOP.

If I grant you every point regarding the culpability of a crew, you are still left with the extreme action of slaughter as the penalty. From cook to janitor to porter to barber, to ship's doctor...you kill them all, all, all. The truth is left, your arguments are barbaric, period.

I am seriously astounded that so many of you would spend so many words trying to rigorously defend the lowest possible road on an issue. Are you that sold out to violence?

If I grant you every point regarding the culpability of a crew, you are still left with the extreme action of slaughter as the penalty. From cook to janitor to porter to barber, to ship's doctor...you kill them all, all, all. The truth is left, your arguments are barbaric, period.

I am seriously astounded that so many of you would spend so many words trying to rigorously defend the lowest possible road on an issue. Are you that sold out to violence?

You continue to condemn that which you choose to see only one side of. Continued discussion at this point is worthless.

I suppose it is something of a condoning of violence to attempt to understand why CONCORD responds the way it does.

Very well, so you people are flying unarmed rookie ships crewed only by a capsuleer. Congrats on not being hypocritical. I can't give you a pat on the back for your naivety, however.

As others have noted these people are complicit in criminal action and therefore legitimate targets. Someone may "only" be a cook aboard a Serpentis, Blood Raider, Gurista or Angel Cartel vessel, but when they signed on they knew they'd be cooking for criminals. If they were so concerned for their safety they could have easily joined with a non-criminal entity. It's not as if ships of the Federal Navy, or Roden, or Viziam, or Ishukone don't require support personnel.

Yes pilot, I've killed countless numbers of people incident to completing tasks for legally appointed agents of the Federation. I do what I can to avoid involving the truly innocent in this nasty business of ours. That makes me a killer, not a murderer. Perhaps you should consult someone to learn the moral distinction between the two.

No, Mr. Bete I am not naïve. However, those who complete mission after mission, never questioning orders, never refusing to complete a mission because conscience tells them that the killing is just too much, always pressing on for the ISK at the end, these I would call naïve. Your artless simplicty generates a life of predictable violence and the justification that goes with it.

Don't play semantics about the human lives you have "killed" or "slaughtered" or "terminated" or "murdered." Go ahead and find the term that makes you feel best, but those humans will never breathe again as you blissfully float away in your egg.

I have no doubt that your conscience "feels" clear, but it isn't. On your conscience lies the culpability for every killing you have committed whether just or not. Sleep well, you may. Sleep guiltless, I doubt it.

No, Mr. Bete I am not naïve. However, those who complete mission after mission, never questioning orders, never refusing to complete a mission because conscience tells them that the killing is just too much, always pressing on for the ISK at the end, these I would call naïve. Your artless simplicty generates a life of predictable violence and the justification that goes with it.

Don't play semantics about the human lives you have "killed" or "slaughtered" or "terminated" or "murdered." Go ahead and find the term that makes you feel best, but those humans will never breathe again as you blissfully float away in your egg.

I have no doubt that your conscience "feels" clear, but it isn't. On your conscience lies the culpability for every killing you have committed whether just or not. Sleep well, you may. Sleep guiltless, I doubt it.

Once again you have proven your entirely one-sided perception of things while you continue to tell others that they should see things from a different perspective. So much for not being hypocritical.

Not every capsuleer that does work for any corporation, agency or government does it for the ISK. Not every capsuleer has a guilty conscience. Some things are worth fighting for, some things are worth death.

I understand and respect that you and your disciples are "pacifists" that speak out against violence of any kind, but the belief that violence is never necessary is a naive stance to take. You continue to try and use this discussion to point blame at anyone that has a different viewpoint than your own and attempt to pursue a moral high ground because you don't participate in violence.

You ignore the fact that it can proven in many cases that violence has saved more lives than it has cost.

You ignore the fact that those who crew capsuleer vessels are not ignorant cattle being thrown into an environment they were completely unaware of.

You ignore the fact that CONCORD serves a very specific purpose in this cluster and has done so since long before you were flying.

You ignore the fact that your protests and attacks on the character of other capsuleers are merely your perception, one of many in the cluster.

Edited by: Dilaro thagriin on 11/07/2011 19:17:49Let me be as clear as i can ston, just for you.

The wholesale slaughter of criminals involved in a non-sanctioned combat action in controvention of CONCORD law is totally justified.Ignorance of the law is not a valid defence, nor is the following of orders.non-sanctioned combat is tantamount to piracy, anyone working aboard a vessel involved in piracy, is a pirate.

Pirates have a short life expectancy when CONCORD get annoyed at them. At least within High security space.

as was mentioned earlier, if you don't like how CONCORD and it's member states do things, it is possibly time for you to leave empire space. They will not change their standard operational procedure because a petty thief like you or your 'disciples' rails against it.

Oh.. and do you seriously take your barber and janitor with you into space? what kind of stupidity is that, they have no tactical value, and are far better suited to perform their designated tasks while in station. as for the cook, how long do you spend in space at any one time? most people just use pre-prepared ration packs.

Now, some of us have things to be doing, i will waste no more of my time on idiots like yourself.

Ah yes, the "I" word. When the capsuleer reaches the end of intelligence, he reaches into his bag of vocabulary to call anyone who questions the status quo of violence an "idiot." The accusation of taking only one side of the issue of wholesale slaughter is true. I am guilty of being one sided when it comes to the deaths of thousands on a daily basis. I am guilty of refusing to "see" and recognize that it is in any way justifyable. Tis, true, I am so very narrow minded when it comes to my condemnation of senseless, unecessary, and brutal killing.

OK, let try this on for size. Is the capsuleer pilot punished sufficiently? No. Let's add a punishment. Concord can freeze and suspend the capsuleer pilot in his egg for one month. Fair enough? His crew of hundreds or thousands die, the pilot is kept from piloting for a month. Surely that is just, isn't it?