Doctrine: Is It Really Worth Arguing Over?

When we see that Israel is the firstborn, and the firstborn is christ, and this christ is in us, then Israel as a whole becomes us individually, and jerusalem becomes the bride or our soul, and we/us, collectively, the bride to the son, and how we are called out of darkness and how we ended up wandering in darkness in the first place; Not to mention what Israel, in the natural, is to all the nations of the earth as well.

In the end it is about our relationship with our Father and through this, our relationship with those that are around us.

John 8:44 `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar--also his father.

At least they don't have to worry about being burned at the stake these days

Theology (or doctrine) is the study of God. So really what is being pushed here is, that who God is does not matter. Knowing him is unimportant, believing the right things about God are not important. Just boil everything down to the lowest common denominator so that we all get warm fuzzy, and can sing kumbaya.

Theology (or doctrine) is the study of God. So really what is being pushed here is, that who God is does not matter. Knowing him is unimportant, believing the right things about God are not important. Just boil everything down to the lowest common denominator so that we all get warm fuzzy, and can sing kumbaya.

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This really is what it all boils down to: Who is God? And what the heck is He doing?

We can get all tangled up in Christianese, but those questions are what we are wrangling over.

What I meant is that the beliefs and practices informing one's desire to know and please God. If you are unregenerate, and the Spirit moves you to deeper faith through the example of orthodoxy (e.g., that it all makes sense in a world that does not) or the example of orthopraxy (e.g., that the saints did great things in the world because of their love for God), can it not be said to have been helpful?

There is indeed nothing one can do OF HIMSELF to change his standing with God, and that even includes right belief and right action; on that we can all agree.

Theology (or doctrine) is the study of God. So really what is being pushed here is, that who God is does not matter. Knowing him is unimportant, believing the right things about God are not important. Just boil everything down to the lowest common denominator so that we all get warm fuzzy, and can sing kumbaya.

What I meant is that the beliefs and practices informing one's desire to know and please God. If you are unregenerate, and the Spirit moves you to deeper faith through the example of orthodoxy (e.g., that it all makes sense in a world that does not) or the example of orthopraxy (e.g., that the saints did great things in the world because of their love for God), can it not be said to have been helpful?

There is indeed nothing one can do OF HIMSELF to change his standing with God, and that even includes right belief and right action; on that we can all agree.

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Ju got sone esplainin' to do. How can someone without faith (unregenerate) be moved by the Spirit to deeper faith?

Ju got sone esplainin' to do. How can someone without faith (unregenerate) be moved by the Spirit to deeper faith?

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Oops! Bit of a conflation. Would it be acceptable, then, to say that an unregenerate can be moved by the Spirit toward faith at all, or that one who is backslidden can be moved toward deeper faith (acknowledging that the latter may not properly be called "changing one's standing with God")?

Oops! Bit of a conflation at all. One can say, then, moved by the Spirit toward faith, or one can say one who is backslidden can be moved toward deeper faith. Acknowledging that the latter may not properly be called "changing one's standing with God."

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I see what you're saying now. Problem is, I don't see in scripture where there is any talk of the Spirit moving someone toward faith. I see lots of places where God gives the gift of faith, though.

I see what you're saying now. Problem is, I don't see in scripture where there is any talk of3 the Spirit moving someone toward faith. I see lots of places where God gives the gift of faith, though.

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Then I have really butchered things, haven't I? Can it be said that leading up to or even loosely connected with this gift of faith there may be some salient things that one may find especially drawing or convincing, while not detracting from Who does the work?

The Spirit convicts of sin through the law, and we respond in sorrow and contrition. I think this precedes conversion, but that it doesn't necessarily lead to conversion as we see with the Rich Young Ruler who was convicted of his sinfulness, yet went away sad.

I just posted this in another thread, and I feel it can apply here as well:

In my view, God does not control us, and that is His deliberate choice. He gave us the gift of allowing us to live as we choose, even if our choices do not follow Him.

I feel the Bible supports this view, as a whole. We see, consistently, stories of people choosing to serve Him and people choosing not to serve Him, and God providing means to turn back.

But it is still our choice.

And at the end of the day, I believe God is good, and that He does not delight in evil, and that while His desires never change, He is willing to make adaptations in His plans to ensure that His message gets heard. I see the Bible as supporting this as well. God created man and woman, and they disobeyed. So He kicked them out of the garden, and they then lived with the knowledge of both good AND evil. Man lived in relative peace for a long time, until at some point things went awry, and God repented of making man, and decided to send a flood to rid the world of evil. And then after that man lived, again, in relative peace for a time, until the days of Pharoah and Moses. God saw man going astray, so He wrote Commandments in stone and used Moses to show His people how to behave.

And so forth. I see things happening in the Bible that were not God's plan, and I see God making provision to bring His people back to Him. Does that mean God Himself changes? NO! What it means is that while God does not change, His people do, and He is willing to allow us to change, and willing to turn evil around for good.

Does that make my theology horrible? Does that make me an unregenerate? Does the belief that God is more Good than ANYTHING else mean that I serve a different God than you?

I believe the answer to all of those questions is NO. You are entitled to your belief and doctrine, but you are NOT entitled to bash my belief if it differs from yours.

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In my young christian life i have found your view the most eye opening. I dont know why for sure but what you say here speaks to me.

I don't find that very comforting, considering that my life has nothing good in itself to offer.

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Neither has mine, nor anyone else's, as it is written: "None is righteous, no not one." rather it is Christ alone who justifies, Christ alone who judges, if the one who justifies is the one who judges, what then can judge us?

I also don't find that very accurate, since there are several times where intercession and repentance have altered God's response to people.

What I meant is that the beliefs and practices informing one's desire to know and please God. If you are unregenerate, and the Spirit moves you to deeper faith through the example of orthodoxy (e.g., that it all makes sense in a world that does not) or the example of orthopraxy (e.g., that the saints did great things in the world because of their love for God), can it not be said to have been helpful?

There is indeed nothing one can do OF HIMSELF to change his standing with God, and that even includes right belief and right action; on that we can all agree.

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If you mean that God can convict us of sin through examples of orthodoxy and orthopraxy, then I would agree with you, however this wasn't clear from the post I replied to.