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marioguy: Hi. I seem to remember you were a member in the old version of the club. I'm afraid the club's been restarted, so you'll have to rejoin; you may reuse the same joining form as before, or otherwise rewrite it from scratch.

---

kjt - yes, I cried too! In fact, I started crying at an earlier point than you said you did, so... I win? xD I dunno.

But oh wow. That was beautiful. Steven Moffat is such an amazing storyteller.

Spoiler:- The Angels Take Manhattan:

I really love the theme of storytelling that Moffat often uses, and in this episode in particular it was done in such an interesting way. I've occasionally thought about how, when you sit down to read a book you've never read before, it's almost as if anything could happen in it because you don't yet know what the story's going to be - and then you read it, and what you see in those pages is what happens, and suddenly that was always the only thing that could ever have happened. To see that notion applied to events in a time-traveller's life - maybe I'm weird for thinking so, but I just find that so fascinating. The idea that your future is set in stone as soon as you've observed it, be it reading it in a book, seeing it on a gravestone or watching your future self die, but that the bits of it you don't observe are still in flux and could be anything, also makes a neat parallel with the Weeping Angels' trait of doing who-knows-what when you're not looking but turning to stone when observed. Or perhaps I'm just overthinking this. Still, the Weeping Angels were absolutely the perfect monster to tell this story with.

We learnt a bit more about the Angels themselves here, too. Something the Doctor said after the paradox wiped them out - something to do with how the Angels had "left" all of the statues in the city, I think? - made me think it's less like the Angels physically are statues and more like they're just incomprehensible, eldritch beings that inhabit existing statues. So the Statue of Liberty wasn't always an Angel and shouldn't be one any more. It's also somewhat reassuring to know that there is a way to defeat Weeping Angels other than just forcing them to look at each other or dropping them into a crack in time: break the stable time loop they're trying to set up and cause a paradox. This episode just has so many cool concepts, even aside from all the charactery adorableness and heartbreak.

The scene on the rooftop with Amy and Rory was the point at which I started to cry. There was something so heartbreaking and yet beautiful about the fact that Rory needed Amy to kill him and Amy couldn't remotely bring herself to do it unless she was going down with him. Amy's always seemed like she wouldn't be able to live without Rory all the previous times he's "died" in front of her, so her risking dying with him here just absolutely sums up how much she's always loved him. Rory, too, was so terrified at the thought of growing old without her, and and and. Those two. Their relationship has always been so heartwarming and adorable. :3 And the end to their story is so satisfying. I'd always thought it'd be something like this, something that would mean Steven Moffat technically wasn't lying when he told us they'd die, but that they wouldn't die in a cruel way, because that just wouldn't be the right way to end their story. So it's lovely that they got to live a long, happy life together (they definitely did, kjt; Amy reassured the Doctor of that in her afterword). The only thing about this ending that's really all that sad from Amy and Rory's point of view is that Rory died five years before her, meaning Amy had to live out the last five years of her life without him. D:

River was pardoned because the man she killed never existed! That's so neat. Why didn't I realise that myself earlier? I was thinking only the other day about how it must have taken one hell of a lot of good deeds to earn her a pardon from her twelve thousand life sentences - but it turned out there was a simpler way. I love how that fits in with the overarching plot of this series. And that means the River this episode was one of the oldest Rivers we've had, which was also nice to see. Younger, still-kind-of-a-psychopath River is fun in her own way, but it's sweet how the more mature River here knows the Doctor so incredibly well and basically just tries to take care of him because she knows how vulnerable he can sometimes be.

My god was the Doctor ever adorable in this episode. Maybe it's a result of what his relationship with Amy and Rory has evolved into, who knows, but his childlike nature has grown far less superficial than it used to be. Like a little kid, he just could not accept that he was going to lose Amy once he found out that that was how this story would end. When River said he "insists on the face of a twelve-year-old", she did not mean the fact that he's physically the youngest-looking Doctor yet. He spent so long this episode trying to hide from the reality that he couldn't change the future; he was so overjoyed when he thought River had got her wrist out without breaking it and even wasted some regeneration energy (however that works? but eh that's not the point here) to try and cover it up when it turned out she hadn't. To be fair to him, though, this episode had some pretty cruel hope spots, making him think that maybe everything might just be all right in the end. After the paradox and Amy and Rory waking up alive, it must have genuinely seemed to him like they could have rewritten the ending and perhaps the last chapter wasn't going to be Amelia's Last Farewell after all. That moment of immense relief for the Doctor there just served to make it all the more heartwrenching that it didn't last.

One thing that really, really got me about the scene where Amy gave herself to the Angel was that the Doctor was begging her to stay with him. He has always known that the most important thing to Amy is for her to be with Rory and that she'll always choose Rory over him. He's always known that she and Rory deserve to just live a happy, normal human life without him, which is exactly what she was heading towards. And up until now, the Doctor has been okay with that - though none of them ever stuck, he has tried on three separate occasions to remove himself from their life so they can be happy without him even though it'd break his hearts to never see them again, and he gave every indication of being willing to do it a fourth time in The Power of Three if that was what they wanted. It's probably because they didn't choose their real life over him last episode that he became even more deeply attached to Amy than he already was and could no longer accept the thought of losing her. For him to want Amy to stay with him even though it'd mean she'd never see Rory again is basically selfish - and yet, the Doctor must have known the whole time that there was no way Amy would ever not choose to be with Rory, and so his begging is just desperately, heartbreakingly irrational of him. I'd often suspected that losing Amy would cause the Doctor to break down and cry, which he so rarely does. And the way he buried his face in his hands, like a weeping angel... ;;

Amy didn't go lightly, though; while she clearly never once considered staying, she was also crying at the prospect of never seeing her Doctor again. I found it cruel that the whole time she was preparing to leave him, she couldn't even face the Doctor because of the Angel, so I loved the fact that she let the Angel take her not by blinking but by turning to look at him one last time. Even though she lived a long happy life with Rory, she must have missed the Doctor, too. I find it a lovely touch what her name was on her headstone - we've never heard her called "Amelia Williams" before. "Williams" because she was and always will be Rory Williams's wife, but "Amelia" because that was always what the Doctor saw her as. I like to think Amy specifically asked for that to go on her headstone. (It's not just that they automatically used her full name; her full name is "Amelia Jessica Williams".)

Amy's afterword to the Doctor was absolutely beautiful. I'd also often thought that, if Amy knew the Doctor was never going to see her again and had one last chance to talk to him, she'd tell him to find someone so he wouldn't be alone. She's seen enough of what happens if he's on his own for too long to know that it's not good for him, and of course she wants him to be happy even as he moves on from her. It's sweet that River tried to tell him that, too - she knows him at least as well as her mother does - but it doesn't seem like the Doctor was going to listen to that advice from her. From Amy, though, I think he will. Amy always meant the most to him out of the whole Pond family, and he's still going to have such trouble letting her go. I can definitely see him trying to cope with her loss by continuing to cling to one of the last things she told him to do. It should be interesting if, as I suspect he might, he takes on his new companion less for said companion's own sake and more simply because Amy told him to not be alone and therefore he is doing what she wanted him to do. I wonder how long it'll take him to find that new friend, though, and how he'll manage in the meantime. At least he has River to keep an eye on him and make sure he's just about coping. It was so sweet that Amy asked her daughter to take care of him because she knew full well how much losing her was going to mess the Doctor up.

And finally, Amy's very last request to the Doctor was utterly, heartmeltingly wonderful and made me blub the most out of anything in the episode. Why did Amelia still keep half-believing in her Raggedy Doctor for those twelve years in The Eleventh Hour? She had only met him once, very briefly, she already had abandonment and trust issues, and he said he'd be back in five minutes and very decidedly wasn't. Thinking back on it, it's honestly a miracle that she didn't completely lose faith - unless he'd promised her it would be worth it. Little Amelia clung so hard to her imaginary friend and the thought of all those adventures he'd take her on, not because she hoped, but because she knew he would come back eventually. The Doctor must have made her promise never to mention this visit to him when she saw him again twelve years later - and it seems sensible that Amy would still have been annoyed at him for taking so long. And for the Doctor, that must have meant everything to him to be able to see her one last time, his little Amelia Pond, exactly the way she was when she was first seared onto his hearts. He'd have been so sad but so happy at the same time - sad because this really is the last time he'll ever see her, but happy to remember all the amazing adventures he's shared with her and to tell that magical story that she's been the star of.

Aaaah. I made myself cry again in the process of writing that ramble. This episode - heck, Amy and Rory's whole story - has tugged at my heartstrings so much. :3

The Eleventh - Spoiler:- The book:

Are you saying that Melody Malone is actually going to be published and available as a real-life book? Because I really want that to happen, but I'd kind of assumed it probably never would. That's so awesome if it actually is! I would read the hell out of that book. Even the last page. Especially the last page.

So, um. Roll on Christmas! It's going to be adorable.

-elyvorg/Amelia

...The Eleventh isn't the only one whose character title just made them pause. D:

Last edited by elyvorg; 1st October 2012 at 11:45 PM.

.: Evolution is a battle .:. Something has to lose :.LOST EVOLUTIONChapter 33: Inside has been posted.

Foregone ConclusionSpinoff/prequel/backstory/thingy to Lost Evolution, written for NaNoWriMo 2010

marioguy: Hi. I seem to remember you were a member in the old version of the club. I'm afraid the club's been restarted, so you'll have to rejoin; you may reuse the same joining form as before, or otherwise rewrite it from scratch.

Why do you like Doctor Who?
I've always been fascinated by time travel. When I first saw Blink, I knew that this show would become one of my favorites.Who's your favourite Doctor?
It was almost a tie between 10 and 11, but then all the idiocy of Dinosaurs on a Spaceship happened, so 10 is my favorite.Desired character title? (Optional)
Looks like I'm already on the list.

Amy's name wasn't on the tombstone until she was zapped back by the Angel, which directly contradicts how less than a minute earlier Rory noticed his name on the same tombstone before getting zapped back. If the Doctor can never visit Amy and Rory again, that would also mean that he can no longer visit Earth from 1938 to whenever they died.

I also discuss how I predicted the episode woudl end (basically the same but with something additional) and what I would have done if I was the Doctor in that episode.

I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

Are you saying that Melody Malone is actually going to be published and available as a real-life book? Because I really want that to happen, but I'd kind of assumed it probably never would. That's so awesome if it actually is! I would read the hell out of that book. Even the last page. Especially the last page.

Spoiler:- Reply:

Indeed, it will be. However, it'll only be available as an ebook, but it's fantastic that we'll get to read it nonetheless. It's out this Thursday. This is the synopsis:

On some days, New York is one of the most beautiful places on Earth.
This was one of the other days...

Melody Malone, owner and sole employee of the Angel Detective Agency, has an unexpected caller. It's movie star Rock Railton, and he thinks someone is out to kill him. When he mentions the 'kiss of the Angel', she takes the case. Angels are Melody's business…

At the press party for Railton's latest movie, studio owner Max Kliener invites Melody to the film set of their next blockbuster. He's obviously spotted her potential, and Melody is flattered when Kliener asks her to become a star. But the cost of fame, she'll soon discover, is greater than anyone could possibly imagine.

Will Melody be able to escape Kliener's dastardly plan – before the Angels take Manhattan?

Apparently, it's the first in a "range to be published that has been written from the perspective of one of the show's characters." So does that mean there'll be more Melody Malone books, or that there'll be more books available that are written from the perspective of characters?

Marioguy, you’re basically advertising GameFaqs, copy and paste if you want us here to read it that bad.

Spoiler:- The Angles take Manhattan, and there’s a book!:

Okay, so I didn’t actually cry… but almost when the Doctor saw the last chapter name and threw a temper tantrum.

To what extent did he tell her the future? She never really acted like she expected any of it to happen. I originally though she meant to tell her in her sleep, like he did in The Big Bang, but no, there’s the smiling little girl on the suit case. It does explain the ‘stories’ she made up according to Mel and others.

It seems odd that the book would be digital only, since it was a physical book in the show. But I suppose that would keep the doctor from reading it early, if there’s only one physical copy, because you can’t tear the last page out of a digital book.

“Once, or twice, in a lifetime, if you're lucky, there are moments. Someone slices the world open,
right down the middle and you can see the sky behind it. The true world. And you understand your purpose.”
(Frances Booth - Channel Zero; Candle Cove)

This episode didn't explain a lot of the time loop very well, but I've created some of my own opinions based on general knowledge of Doctor Who time travel.

Originally Posted by marioguy

Amy's name wasn't on the tombstone until she was zapped back by the Angel, which directly contradicts how less than a minute earlier Rory noticed his name on the same tombstone before getting zapped back.

Rory saw himself die, and, in this episode at least, it's heavily emphasized that if you know your personal future--see it written, see it happen, whatever--that it's bound to happen. Since Rory saw his own death, it creates a "destiny" that even the paradox isn't able to undo. Amy, on the other hand, isn't bound by a destiny, so she can choose to either leave with the Doctor, which won't change the past, or stay with Rory, which will (another big emphasis in Doctor Who in general is that the past/future can be changed). Since she chose to stay, she changes the past and her name appears on the tombstone. Extending this, I doubt the afterword was Amy's afterword when the Doctor rips it out of the book at the beginning of the episode. And the name of the last chapter (Amelia's Farewell or something like that) is similarly ambiguous; she could either be saying farewell to Rory or the Doctor.
I know this little theory/explanation is contradicted in at least "The Girl Who Waited," but the rules of time travel generally vary greatly from episode to episode anyway.

Originally Posted by marioguy

If the Doctor can never visit Amy and Rory again, that would also mean that he can no longer visit Earth from 1938 to whenever they died.

In my opinion, it's implied that the victims of the Angels must stay in (or at least around) Winter Quay. Both Rory and the private eye die in their beds in that building. You think that they would move somewhere after they get sent back to start their lives again (Well, maybe not Rory while he's waiting for Amy, but at least the private eye!). The Angels trap their victims in Winter Quay to have a readily accessible food source. Or something. I've seen this complaint elsewhere, and I thought this explanation was more prominent in the actual episode than the one above.

What I don't understand is why River can go back and visit Amy and Rory, but it's heavily implied that the Doctor can't. Why is this? Is the Doctor so against vortex manipulators that he won't even use one? He definitely used one in "The Big Bang." Can anyone explain this to me? Thanks.

"One day, I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties.
Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Goodbye Susan. Goodbye my dear."
-The First Doctor

Why do you like Doctor Who?
Because it's such a vast show that goes across the whole of time and space, leaving someone who likes sci-fi things (like me) in awe at what they can come up with. That's just a basic idea of why I like the show's premises, to say the least, the episodes are...amazing.

Who's your favourite Doctor?
Matt Smith... it was Tennant until the latest episode came out, Moffat has effectively wrote him better and I think whereas Tennant is BRILLIANT...Smith seems to bring more....emotion into it, maybe this is because the first time seeing all of the episodes with Smith have been during my teenage years but Tennant, I first saw him in 2006 when I was 9

So yeah, the latest episode, ya know...before this I would have put Doomsday as my favourite episode, mainly for the send-off Rose got, but this one blows it out of the water, guess it's that funny thing called love, and how it's written is just...amazing...and it shows how Dr Who has in itself become more than just a weekly tv program, it, in itself, is true beauty

LokiTheGengar: Gaaah! I am so sorry I forgot you in my previous post! You're in, welcome. Also I totally agree with you that the Doctor is definitely one of the best reasons to like the show. =D

marioguy: First off, the spoiler tags in your most recent post don't work, leaving some pretty big spoilers exposed. Please edit that to fix it as soon as you see this. (If you're not sure why they didn't work, look at the club's first post for how to use the different tags.) Aside from that, I'm afraid I can't let you join just yet, as the joining form does ask for more substance than that. You're clearly capable of a fleshed-out opinion, so it shouldn't be hard to show you care about joining this club by doing that in your joining post.

Dawn and Piplup: Sorry, I'm afraid that isn't enough to get in yet. Feel free to try again, though. If you can't think of anything more specific to say about the show in general, try thinking of specific episodes you really liked and explain why, or characters you liked and why.

fango pango: Eh, I think that's just about enough, so welcome. I get what you mean about possibly appreciating an earlier Doctor less because you were younger at the time - I was twelve when the Ninth Doctor was around, and I really don't think I was able to appreciate him as much as I should have done because I was that relatively young.

Originally Posted by The Eleventh

Spoiler:- Reply:

Indeed, it will be. However, it'll only be available as an ebook, but it's fantastic that we'll get to read it nonetheless. It's out this Thursday. This is the synopsis:

On some days, New York is one of the most beautiful places on Earth.
This was one of the other days...

Melody Malone, owner and sole employee of the Angel Detective Agency, has an unexpected caller. It's movie star Rock Railton, and he thinks someone is out to kill him. When he mentions the 'kiss of the Angel', she takes the case. Angels are Melody's business…

At the press party for Railton's latest movie, studio owner Max Kliener invites Melody to the film set of their next blockbuster. He's obviously spotted her potential, and Melody is flattered when Kliener asks her to become a star. But the cost of fame, she'll soon discover, is greater than anyone could possibly imagine.

Will Melody be able to escape Kliener's dastardly plan – before the Angels take Manhattan?

Apparently, it's the first in a "range to be published that has been written from the perspective of one of the show's characters." So does that mean there'll be more Melody Malone books, or that there'll be more books available that are written from the perspective of characters?

Spoiler:- The book:

Okay, that sounds interesting. Do we know if this is literally the same book from the episode, so that, you know, it starts as a detective story with a hint of supernatural creepiness and then halfway through suddenly turns into a story about a time-traveller losing his best friends? Because that blurb doesn't make it sound much like that. I'd still be interested in reading it either way, because it's still River.

Also, ebook. Um. I'll have to figure out how that works; I've never downloaded ebooks before. Presumably it's not a physically published book because it wouldn't make enough money? Shame, though - you can't tear out the last page of an ebook. D:

More books written from the perspective of characters? That would be awesome if true. I can actually see Amy writing stories about some of her adventures with the Doctor; it would seem she became a publisher in her life in New York, and she used to write travel articles so we know she's a decent writer. It would make sense! And Amy's always loved stories, ever since someone told her one when she was seven. :3

Spoiler:- Timey-wimey Manhattan:

Originally Posted by Thecatteam

Rory saw himself die, and, in this episode at least, it's heavily emphasized that if you know your personal future--see it written, see it happen, whatever--that it's bound to happen. Since Rory saw his own death, it creates a "destiny" that even the paradox isn't able to undo. Amy, on the other hand, isn't bound by a destiny, so she can choose to either leave with the Doctor, which won't change the past, or stay with Rory, which will (another big emphasis in Doctor Who in general is that the past/future can be changed). Since she chose to stay, she changes the past and her name appears on the tombstone.

I don't think Rory's name being on the headstone is necessarily anything to do with him having seen himself die in Winter Quay (can you imagine the Angels bothering to give their cattle a proper burial once they're dead?), but it is something that was written in stone once he looked at his headstone and from that point on had to happen to him. But yeah, I think you're right that Amy's fate was still fluid and because she hadn't observed it either way, and so of course she chose to be with Rory.

Extending this, I doubt the afterword was Amy's afterword when the Doctor rips it out of the book at the beginning of the episode.

That's an interesting thought! Maybe that's true. When the Doctor rips the page out, it kind of looks like he's vaguely looking at it, so even if he isn't properly taking in the words, surely he'd have noticed if it really was the afterword at the time.

I know this little theory/explanation is contradicted in at least "The Girl Who Waited," but the rules of time travel generally vary greatly from episode to episode anyway.

Are you referring to the fact that younger-Amy gets saved with the help of her older self who now never existed because young-her was saved? I think that might still work within the time-travel logic of TATM. Having older-Amy help save the younger was still a paradox - it took a lot of power from the TARDIS just to get them both together for about ten minutes or so - even if not as big and impossible a paradox as having both Amys be permanently saved. It's just that there were never any other paradoxes around Apalapucia at the time, and so it didn't hurt too much to cause one little paradox there. Does that make sense?

In my opinion, it's implied that the victims of the Angels must stay in (or at least around) Winter Quay. Both Rory and the private eye die in their beds in that building. You think that they would move somewhere after they get sent back to start their lives again (Well, maybe not Rory while he's waiting for Amy, but at least the private eye!). The Angels trap their victims in Winter Quay to have a readily accessible food source. Or something. I've seen this complaint elsewhere, and I thought this explanation was more prominent in the actual episode than the one above.

I don't think Amy and Rory's eventual fate was to live out their lives in Winter Quay. Winter Quay no longer ever existed due to the paradox, after all, and it seems Amy became a publisher, which I doubt she'd have been able to do from in there.

As for why the Doctor couldn't just pick them up from 1938 by landing somewhere spatially separate from New York, the thing is that having them not die in New York fiftyish years later would cause a paradox with their headstones, and since at least part of that paradox would be centred around New York, New York would go splat.

What I don't understand is why River can go back and visit Amy and Rory, but it's heavily implied that the Doctor can't. Why is this? Is the Doctor so against vortex manipulators that he won't even use one? He definitely used one in "The Big Bang." Can anyone explain this to me? Thanks.

I've read someone's theory, which makes a decent amount of sense to me, that said that because the chapter title was "Amelia's Last Farewell", it was already written in stone that the Doctor would never see Amy again. The afterword, too, makes it clear that Amy never saw him again throughout her life (at least up until the point she wrote it). For the Doctor to ignore what he'd read and go and visit her would therefore cause something of a paradox, and again, New York would be destroyed.

All of this said, though, ultimately I find myself not really caring if some of the time travel logic in the episode wasn't completely watertight. Steven Moffat did such a good job telling the story of the Doctor losing Amy and Rory and never being able to see them again that he made me want to believe it all really did work that way.

(Another example along these lines: the Doctor healing River's wrist with his regeneration energy? Not entirely sure how that worked. I'd thought regeneration energy was only able to be thrown around like that if a Time Lord regenerated less than fifteen hours ago. But really I don't care that it doesn't quite make sense to me, because the point of that moment isn't to showcase a new way in which regeneration energy works - it's to show how much the Doctor doesn't want to accept reality. And that, I can get behind.)

Yay for storytelling! :3

-elyvorg/Amelia

.: Evolution is a battle .:. Something has to lose :.LOST EVOLUTIONChapter 33: Inside has been posted.

Foregone ConclusionSpinoff/prequel/backstory/thingy to Lost Evolution, written for NaNoWriMo 2010

marioguy: First off, the spoiler tags in your most recent post don't work, leaving some pretty big spoilers exposed. Please edit that to fix it as soon as you see this. (If you're not sure why they didn't work, look at the club's first post for how to use the different tags.) Aside from that, I'm afraid I can't let you join just yet, as the joining form does ask for more substance than that. You're clearly capable of a fleshed-out opinion, so it shouldn't be hard to show you care about joining this club by doing that in your joining post.

I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

I don't think Rory's name being on the headstone is necessarily anything to do with him having seen himself die in Winter Quay (can you imagine the Angels bothering to give their cattle a proper burial once they're dead?), but it is something that was written in stone once he looked at his headstone and from that point on had to happen to him. But yeah, I think you're right that Amy's fate was still fluid and because she hadn't observed it either way, and so of course she chose to be with Rory.

Spoiler:- but...:

We saw Rory's name in the first graveyard scene, not just the second. At that point he still was going to die in Winter Quay. Anyone notice the seasonal theme? The one vase said something like 'Ravage of Summer', wonder if there was more season themed things I missed...

“Once, or twice, in a lifetime, if you're lucky, there are moments. Someone slices the world open,
right down the middle and you can see the sky behind it. The true world. And you understand your purpose.”
(Frances Booth - Channel Zero; Candle Cove)

The Angel's Kiss: A Melody Malone Mystery was released today. I've just bought it, and have read the first chapter. It's quite short (I'm already nearly 20% finished, after only five minutes of reading), and doesn't seem to be the same book Amy reads in TATM. Nevertheless, it's very entertaining. I'm very much enjoying reading a book from River's perspective. It's incredibly flirtatious, and is certainly not a children's book. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's for adults, but it's definitely more suitable for a slightly older audience (River talks repeatedly about bits pointing the right way and about making sure that certain things are buttoned and that others are unbuttoned. :P)

I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. I hope we do get the chance to read Melody Malone, and it may be likely, due to this being the first in a series. I'd definitely recommend the book, since it makes clear why River's in New York and interested in Angels (well, not really "why" she is, but it does flesh out her life in New York, so that her appearance in TATM doesn't seem so arbitrary). Besides, it only cost me €2.49, which is approximately Ł2.

Oh, I thought it was going to have a main storyline (the whole movie thing from the synopsis) and a minor storyline (what we saw in the episode). I wonder if this means that the book we saw in the episode will a sequel to this one?

“Once, or twice, in a lifetime, if you're lucky, there are moments. Someone slices the world open,
right down the middle and you can see the sky behind it. The true world. And you understand your purpose.”
(Frances Booth - Channel Zero; Candle Cove)

I don't wanna dwell on TATM (because major sad) but I feel proud to say that I've just watched The Runaway Bride, which means I've now seen every episode of New Who to date! I'm considering buying series 1-6 on DVD . . . and Torchwood and SJA . . . I mean I haven't seen series 1-3 of TW or watched a whole season of SJA (I've seen the occasional episode) but I want to see them. It would cost me what, $300-ish, but I've been saving for something for ages, so I could definitely afford it. I'm also thinking though of just renting TW and SJA so I can watch all of it, and then I'd buy the box set if I felt it was something I could re watch a lot. I definitely think buying DW on DVD is a great investment though: it's one of those shows that I never get tired of watch. Plus one of those shows that's great for marathons (you can fit a series into twelve hours!). Can I have an opinion on buying the DW and (possibly) the TW and SJA boxsets?

I don't wanna dwell on TATM (because major sad) but I feel proud to say that I've just watched The Runaway Bride, which means I've now seen every episode of New Who to date! I'm considering buying series 1-6 on DVD . . . and Torchwood and SJA . . . I mean I haven't seen series 1-3 of TW or watched a whole season of SJA (I've seen the occasional episode) but I want to see them. It would cost me what, $300-ish, but I've been saving for something for ages, so I could definitely afford it. I'm also thinking though of just renting TW and SJA so I can watch all of it, and then I'd buy the box set if I felt it was something I could re watch a lot. I definitely think buying DW on DVD is a great investment though: it's one of those shows that I never get tired of watch. Plus one of those shows that's great for marathons (you can fit a series into twelve hours!). Can I have an opinion on buying the DW and (possibly) the TW and SJA boxsets?

You should really get the Who boxsets, so that you can watch the episodes whenever you like. I never get tired of watching Who, so it's great to own the episodes on DVD/Blu-ray (coincidentally, I watched The Shakespeare Code last night). As for TW and SJA, it could be a slightly more difficult decision. I would recommend watching the first three series of Torchwood. Children of Earth (the third series) is phenomenal, while the first two series have their moments. The episodes are wonderfully character-based. Plus, the references to Doctor Who are great (you even get Martha appearing for three episodes).

While I love SJA, I'd rank it much lower on the list of boxsets to buy. There are definitely two or three episodes you should check out, if you haven't seen them. Saying that, Elisabeth Sladen is just magical, and Clyde and Rani's relationship is exciting to watch. It's really something you should watch, but I wouldn't place as much importance on it. In short, go for Doctor Who, and Torchwood if you've got money to spare. If you've got plenty to spare, then get SJA as well. :P I've got them all except SJA Series 5. I should buy it sometime, if only for The Curse of Clyde Langer.

Wow, Melody Malone has so much innuendo. I'd also like to share this hilarious excerpt.

"Finally the cab drew up at the kerb with a jerk. The jerk stayed behind the steering wheel as I eased myself out."

marioguy: In the first post it says that the joining form requires three or four lines of reasons why you like Doctor Who before I let you join, to make sure every member of this club is capable of decently meaty posts. I know this might be annoying as you clearly are capable of that judging from what you linked to, but could you do it anyway for the sake of procedure, please, so I'm not making exceptions for anyone? ^^;

To add an alternate opinion to the boxset question: although I don't have any boxsets for either so I can't say anything about any potential DVD-only content, personally I prefer The Sarah Jane Adventures to Torchwood; I've rewatched SJA episodes significantly more times than TW episodes. This is largely down to my personal tastes in that I much prefer a more idealistic tone to a more cynical one. Both shows are essentially about a group of mostly-ordinary people who fight aliens on Earth, but SJA focuses a lot on the adventure and wonder and excitement of it while Torchwood tends to show more how the alien-fighting screws up the main characters' lives. That's not to say SJA doesn't have its occasional heartbreaking episodes, but it's always heartbreaking in a sort of... beautiful way, whereas Torchwood is usually rather cruel about it.

Basically what I'm trying to say here is that if you have enough money for one but not both of SJA or Torchwood, think about which one you'd probably prefer. Both have some amazing episodes and some not-so-great episodes, but overall you're likely to personally enjoy one more than the other depending on your taste in fiction.

...although it must be pointed out that two Sarah Jane episodes feature guest appearances from the Doctor (Tenth in series 3, Eleventh in series 4), and that definitely has to go down as an objective point towards SJA. I mean, it's the Doctor. =D

Also, yes, definitely get Doctor Who boxsets. Aside from being able to watch the episodes whenever you like, there's various extra stuff - some of the commentaries with cast and crew can be very entertaining, and the DVD-only scenes, if you haven't already come across them elsewhere, are definitely worth seeing if you like the characters.

Originally Posted by The Eleventh

Wow, Melody Malone has so much innuendo. I'd also like to share this hilarious excerpt.

"Finally the cab drew up at the kerb with a jerk. The jerk stayed behind the steering wheel as I eased myself out."

Pfft. Oh, River. I am going to have to check this book out sometime, even if it's not the same one from the episode.

(Speaking of books, I think I may have gained a new habit of peeking at the chapter titles of any new books I get before beginning to read the actual story. Not sure if this is a good thing or if I'll end up regretting it one day.)

-elyvorg/Amelia

.: Evolution is a battle .:. Something has to lose :.LOST EVOLUTIONChapter 33: Inside has been posted.

Foregone ConclusionSpinoff/prequel/backstory/thingy to Lost Evolution, written for NaNoWriMo 2010

Why do you like Doctor Who?
I love the concept of travelling in time and space, and in Doctor Who we get to explore that more then in any other TV program ever. We don't just get new worlds & terrifying enemies, we get our own at all different times in our history (often with a keen eye to get thins mostly right) and in times that are yet to come (and yet are brought to life so well it's hard to accept that's only a possible future).
We get species that are intensely interesting, and so come to defy death and even change our own reality (the Daleks being the prime example) and yet they seem to reflect sides of ourselves (some we try not to accept we have but need to know exist so we're forewarned).
It has a mythos more complex and interesting then almost anything I've ever come across, it even challenges true history in terms of interest.

Who's your favourite Doctor?
The Eleventh .
A truly fantastic character study of the Doctor that kinda merged the strengths and weaknesses of the Ninth and Tenth, and far more entertaining in his own ways I think.

Who's your favourite character?
Amy Pond
She just totally took over the companion slot and made it her own in fresh and heartfelt ways beyond anything I've seen before

I'll also add two villains to that: The Master and The Dream Lord
Both were fantastic villains and characters, and I really really hope each will be back.

Since I've gotten back to college, I've started watching Torchwood again. My friend and I have this tradition of watching Doctor Who together, because I was such a huge fan last year and he started watching and I wanted to watch them all again. After we ran out of Doctor Who we began watching Torchwood, and Sara Jane Adventures is next if we ever finish.
So two nights ago we watched "Meat." It was so great. Our first episode of the year was "To the Last Man," which wasn't really quintessentially Torchwood; it was just kind of cliched. But "Meat" got us back into the swing of things.

Spoiler:- Meat:

As in, yelling at the computer screen,
"Why is this happening???"
"What is that???"
"AAAHHHH"
"Just talk to each other!"
"Ugh, Rhys, why??? Why you so stupid?"
"Ah, I see what you did there, Jack--He came out and said it AHAHAHA"
"Mmmm, sexytime."
"OMG Ianto, why are you so--Ok, that was pretty cool. Maybe we don't hate you as much, Ianto."
"Ahahaha that's such bad CGI. Get it, CG-eye? Haha."

All of this Torchwood-watching reminds me that I need to get back to Classic Who. But I have so much homework! What's that? If I do my homework, I'll have time to watch Doctor Who? ...Yeah, I guess you're right, logical side of my brain.

"One day, I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties.
Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Goodbye Susan. Goodbye my dear."
-The First Doctor

marioguy: In the first post it says that the joining form requires three or four lines of reasons why you like Doctor Who before I let you join, to make sure every member of this club is capable of decently meaty posts. I know this might be annoying as you clearly are capable of that judging from what you linked to, but could you do it anyway for the sake of procedure, please, so I'm not making exceptions for anyone? ^^;

Okay then. When I first saw Blink, I thought for a very long time about how intricate the stable time loops and bootstrap paradoxes were. The DVD scene especially blew my mind. I just had to watch more of this show. It was finals week then, but as soon as summer started I plowed through episode from 2005 until I was all caught up. It took me a few week. The episodes were a mixed bag, but they were overall good. It's amazing how 9, 10, and 11 are different characters in their own regard but are still the same awesome Doctor.

Spoilers for the Angels take Manhattan:

Spoiler:

After further thinking about it, maybe the way the episode was written wasn't actually that bad. The Doctor could easily fix all of this by going back in time at some point slightly after 1938 at a place a bit away from New York and just commute to NY to pick up the Ponds. I don't think this detail slipped Moffat's mind. Perhaps he intentionally did it this way to give himself a way to write the Ponds back whenever he wanted to.

Think of it this way: The loss of Amy and Rory made the Doctor do things that he would have never done, and thus is an important change in his life. Some time later the Doctor could use my plan to pick up the Ponds for another adventure (maybe the 50th anniversary), and it would be after Amy published the book so it wouldn't completely ruin her emotional foreword. Then the Doctor would just make a fake grave stone to fool his younger self into thinking that Rory and Amy are gone for good.

I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

Night_Walker: Welcome back! Your contributions were always pretty awesome. I hope you'll get the chance to join in lots of our discussions in future.

You're not the only one who kind of hopes the Dream Lord will return sometime; I found him really fascinating in Amy's Choice. That said, though, I've been okay with the fact that he hasn't done so for two series and perhaps never actually will, because I've learned that you don't need to have the Dream Lord around to get a really strong sense of how much the Doctor hates himself. His self-loathing has been explored a whole bunch recently - particularly in series 6 part 2, and also A Town Called Mercy - and I've been quite satisfied with that, Dream Lord or no Dream Lord.

marioguy: Thank you, and welcome. Sorry for being all naggy about it.

Originally Posted by marioguy

Spoilers for the Angels take Manhattan:

Spoiler:

After further thinking about it, maybe the way the episode was written wasn't actually that bad. The Doctor could easily fix all of this by going back in time at some point slightly after 1938 at a place a bit away from New York and just commute to NY to pick up the Ponds. I don't think this detail slipped Moffat's mind. Perhaps he intentionally did it this way to give himself a way to write the Ponds back whenever he wanted to.

Think of it this way: The loss of Amy and Rory made the Doctor do things that he would have never done, and thus is an important change in his life. Some time later the Doctor could use my plan to pick up the Ponds for another adventure (maybe the 50th anniversary), and it would be after Amy published the book so it wouldn't completely ruin her emotional foreword. Then the Doctor would just make a fake grave stone to fool his younger self into thinking that Rory and Amy are gone for good.

But if it were possible, why would the Doctor wait until sometime later to pick the Ponds back up? The loss of Amy and Rory is a massive change in the Doctor's life that he really doesn't want to accept - if he was aware of any way of getting her back, then he'd have already done so, because he just can't let her go. Therefore, in-universe, it has to be the case that he really can never see her again, whatever the reasons are. (I mentioned in an earlier post how I think it might have something to do with the chapter title of "Amelia's Last Farewell"; once he'd seen that, it was set in stone that he'd lose her forever. Averting that would cause a paradox, which New York can no longer withstand.)

From an out-of-universe perspective, sure, perhaps it would have been possible to write the episode so that the Doctor tricked out time and didn't lose Amy and Rory. But that's not what this episode was about; it was about the Doctor losing Amy and Rory for good. And given that, writing Amy and Rory back in would just spoil the impact of their ending storyline. I know Steven Moffat can be a massive liar sometimes, but I really don't think he'd have lied about this, because it would totally compromise the story this episode told. He only lies if it'll help him tell his stories better. (I for one definitely enjoyed series 6 even more because I genuinely believed him when he said the Doctor really was dead.)

That and I got the impression from Amy's afterword that she wrote it when she was quite old. She did say that she and Rory lived well and were very happy, and it doesn't seem like she'd have put it that way if they hadn't already lived out most of their life. Also... there's something else canonical that's just appeared that makes it clear what a long and happy life Amy and Rory led in New York.

Ever wonder about Brian, and whether he ever found out what happened to his son and daughter-in-law? Well, Chris Chibnall wrote a scene addressing that, which sadly was never filmed but has now been made available in storyboard form with Arthur Darvill voicing part of it. It is lovely; anyone who cares about Rory, Amy and/or Brian should definitely see it.

Spoiler:- P.S.:

Like so many things towards the end of this half-series, this was heartbreaking in a beautiful way. It highlights just how sad it is that Brian will never see Rory and Amy again, but it's so sweet that Rory left him a message just like Amy left one for the Doctor. Up until now, I'd tried to reassure myself that Brian wouldn't have spent the rest of his life wondering and worrying by imagining that either the Doctor or River visited to tell him what happened - somehow it had failed to occur to me that it could have actually been Rory himself who let him know via the slow path. And the contents of the letter are just so touching and lovely. If this is the last we'll ever hear from Rory, then it's fittingly as adorable as he's always been. For all the bickering and Brian seeming to prefer Amy over him, Rory and his father really did love each other so much.

Not only that - Amy and Rory finally adopted! Awww. There was always that lingering question, after Asylum brought up Amy being infertile and Rory really wanting kids, of whether or not they ever thought to just adopt instead. Given that they never did while they were still in the present, I always assumed that they'd talked it over and decided that ultimately they didn't need to adopt a child because they were happy enough as they were. However, since they did adopt in the end, it's probably actually the case that they always kind of wanted to. The only reason they didn't do so before they got stuck in New York, then, must have been the Doctor's presence in their life, since being unexpectedly whisked off on adventures every few months is not exactly stable circumstances in which to bring up a child. Amy and Rory could of course have asked the Doctor to stop visiting because they wanted a kid; he absolutely would have understood and backed off. The fact that they didn't ever do that just goes to show how much the Doctor means to them - having him in their life was even more important to them than getting to be parents! The two of them eventually choosing their Doctor-life over their real life in The Power of Three seems even more like it was always going to happen that way now that we know they'd essentially already chosen the Doctor over a normal life when they decided, if perhaps only subconsciously, to put off having kids for his sake. It was only once they found themselves stuck in New York, knowing they'd definitely never see the Doctor again and with the rest of their now-uninterrupted lives ahead of them, that they must have figured why not bring up a child after all.

So in the end, even though it's really sad that Brian is never going to see his son and daughter-in-law again, at least he isn't alone and he has someone he can talk to about them and share memories with. I'm sure Anthony is a lovely guy. His parents were awesome people, after all - and he must have been told such wonderful, exciting stories when he was a kid. :3 This also makes Amy spending the last five years of her life as a widow much less painful, because at least she still had her son.

It's a shame that the scene wasn't properly filmed, but it's still incredibly moving just in storyboard-and-voiceover form. I'd thought series 7 part 1 had already wrung all the tears it could from me. Not so.

-elyvorg/Amelia

.: Evolution is a battle .:. Something has to lose :.LOST EVOLUTIONChapter 33: Inside has been posted.

Foregone ConclusionSpinoff/prequel/backstory/thingy to Lost Evolution, written for NaNoWriMo 2010

Indeed, P.S. is so poignant. I didn't post about it yesterday because I was too busy playing Black 2. Oops.

Spoiler:- P.S.:

It's annoying that we didn't get to see more of Brian, since even this never-filmed scene displays how valuable a character he was/could have been.

I had imagined Amy and Rory settling down and adopting before this scene was released, so it feels really satisfying to see confirmation of that. I hope Anthony met River at some stage. Or even the Doctor. I still don't understand why Amy and Rory are trapped in New York, though. Can't they just travel out of the city? The Angels are gone. Speaking of the Angels, I wonder to what time period the Ponds were sent. Since Anthony's in his sixties some time between 2015-2020 (The Power of Three's time period is extremely difficult to pinpoint), it's possible that they were sent to the 1960s at the latest. Gah, the dating of Amy and Rory's life has been thrown completely off due to Series 7 (there's no way to tell how long they've been travelling for between stories, etc.). But that has nothing to do with P.S.. xD

I like to think that Rory kept amending the letter during his life. It must have been difficult to have it around, knowing that his dad would eventually read it in the future and learn that he's never going to see his son again. That's really sad. I wonder if Amy did the same with her parents.

Overall I enjoyed this, there was an interesting plot, plenty of action, and appearances by several historical figures (though I can’t vouch for the accuracy of the depictions, and some reviewers felt this was overdone… but then, some of them also said you needed to be really familiar with the 1st Doctor to enjoy this book, and I didn’t find that to be the case) and lots of aliens! Also we get to experience the story from several different points of view. However that doesn’t mean it was perfect. There were an increasing number of inconsistencies in the second half, as though the author had rewritten the ending a couple times. And I was somewhat annoyed with something the doctor points out, as he realizes it without first showing any sort of thought process.

There’s artist and author interviews after the story. I only skimmed the first part of these, but the author’s appears to give quite a bit of ‘what I chose to do and why’.

And you can’t argue with the price of the e-book version… I’m not sure how this book came to be offered free as it’s more recent, but I’m glad it was.

“Once, or twice, in a lifetime, if you're lucky, there are moments. Someone slices the world open,
right down the middle and you can see the sky behind it. The true world. And you understand your purpose.”
(Frances Booth - Channel Zero; Candle Cove)

Indeed, P.S. is so poignant. I didn't post about it yesterday because I was too busy playing Black 2. Oops.

Spoiler:- P.S.:

It's annoying that we didn't get to see more of Brian, since even this never-filmed scene displays how valuable a character he was/could have been.

I had imagined Amy and Rory settling down and adopting before this scene was released, so it feels really satisfying to see confirmation of that. I hope Anthony met River at some stage. Or even the Doctor. I still don't understand why Amy and Rory are trapped in New York, though. Can't they just travel out of the city? The Angels are gone. Speaking of the Angels, I wonder to what time period the Ponds were sent. Since Anthony's in his sixties some time between 2015-2020 (The Power of Three's time period is extremely difficult to pinpoint), it's possible that they were sent to the 1960s at the latest. Gah, the dating of Amy and Rory's life has been thrown completely off due to Series 7 (there's no way to tell how long they've been travelling for between stories, etc.). But that has nothing to do with P.S.. xD

I like to think that Rory kept amending the letter during his life. It must have been difficult to have it around, knowing that his dad would eventually read it in the future and learn that he's never going to see his son again. That's really sad. I wonder if Amy did the same with her parents.

-The Eleventh/Rory Williams

Spoiler:- P.S.:

Rory says that they adopted Anthony in 1946, which means that Anthony cannot possibly be in his mid-sixties. Chris Chibnall just messed up in his math. I don't know how Rory could have known that his son would live long enough to deliver the letter.

I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

Apparently, we'll be having an episode called Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS. I can see that being a working title, though. This is certainly very exciting. I believe it's the tenth episode of Series 7, making it the fifth in next year's run. I'm looking forward to the reasoning behind the adventure in the TARDIS. I wonder if there'll be an incursion in the TARDIS, which would be very interesting. I kind of hope it's not just that the Doctor needs a material or substance found deep within the TARDIS. I'd also like to see some references to past stories, as there's a lot of potential for that.

Speaking of the TARDIS, did anyone else notice the new addition to the console room in The Angels Take Manhattan? You know, that window-thing that was present in the Doctor Who Experience's TARDIS console room earlier this year. Was it in the other S7P1 episodes? I didn't notice it, anyway. It seems like a rather strange update.

DWM's revealed the inclusion of certain characters in the Christmas Special.

Spoiler:- Christmas!; not very spoiler-y:

Vastra, Jenny and Strax appear in this episode. I'm so excited for it now (and it's only nine Tuesdays away!). Vastra and Jenny are magnificent. I'm surprised they're appearing so early in the series; I hope they have another starring role later on. Since Strax is appearing, we'll be encountering a pre-AGMGTW Vastra and Jenny.

Gah, so much fiftieth anniversary merchandise is being announced. I don't have enough funds to cope. D:

Originally Posted by marioguy

Spoiler:- P.S.:

Rory says that they adopted Anthony in 1946, which means that Anthony cannot possibly be in his mid-sixties. Chris Chibnall just messed up in his math. I don't know how Rory could have known that his son would live long enough to deliver the letter.

I joined the Doctor Who Society at my uni, so I get to watch a classic episode a week. Now I don't have to be a philistine any longer.
I saw the 3rd doc's first episode last week, and I get to see the very first episode this week. The SFX is a bit pants.

I joined the Doctor Who Society at my uni, so I get to watch a classic episode a week. Now I don't have to be a philistine any longer.
I saw the 3rd doc's first episode last week, and I get to see the very first episode this week. The SFX is a bit pants.

You have a club for Doctor Who? How lucky you are.

I've only seen a select few Classic episodes; An Unearthly Child (the first episode, though I've seen some of "The Cave of Skulls"), The Tomb of the Cybermen, The Time Warrior, half of The Talons of Weng-Chiang and the TV movie. I really want to get into it more, especially with the fiftieth being next year. The stories are pretty enjoyable, though I must say that it's hard to adjust to the slower pacing after experiencing the new series. I definitely want to watch Sarah Jane's episodes (as you can tell, I've already seen her debut).