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The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

The Warmage

"We'll never make it! There are too many soldiers in the way!"
"Not in a minute there won't be."
-- Staff Sergeant Garlen, conversing with Kenat Firehand, Warmage of the Fifth Order,

Abilities- Charisma determines how powerful a spell a warmage can cast, how many spells a warmage can cast per day, and how hard those spells are to resist (see Spells, below). A warmage’s Intelligence bonus is important for a number of his class abilities, such as Warmage Edge. Like a sorcerer or wizard, a warmage benefits from high Dexterity and Constitution scores.Alignment- Any, although warmages in armies tend to be lawful.Hit Die- d6.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency- Warmages are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, and light shields.

Spells- A warmage casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the warmage spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. Warmages also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their eclectic learning ability as they increase in level (see below). See page 90 for the warmage’s spell list.

To cast a spell, a warmage must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell’s level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a warmage’s spell is 10 + the spell’s level + the warmage’s Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a warmage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1–1: The Warmage. In addition, he receives bonus spells for a high Charisma score (see Table 1–1, page 8 of the Player’s Handbook).

Unlike a cleric or a wizard, a warmage need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.

Warmage Edge (Ex)- Whenever he casts a spell that does hit point damage, he may add his Intelligence bonus, plus one-half his warmage level, to the amount of damage dealt. This bonus applies once to each creature damaged by the spell. For example, if he casts Magic Missile and fires two missiles at two different orcs, each one will take 1d4+1+(warmage Eedge) damage, but if he fires both missiles at the same orc, it only takes 2d4+2+(warmage Eedge) damage. He can only apply the extra damage to warmage spells. This ability subsumes the Extra Edge feat.

Spell Discipline- At first level, a warmage must chose one disipline from the list below. He adds all spells from both discipline lists to his spell list, and gains the discipline's special ability. He may learn spells from other disciplines through his Eclectic Learning class feature; if he does, he learns them at their normal level. The disciplines are listed below:

Bane- Banes focus on disrupting their opponents, using a wide variety of penalty-inducing spells. Their discipline ability allows them to impose penalties with any spell they cast.

Sniper- Snipers focus on taking down one foe at a time with extreme prejudice. Their discipline ability gives them major bonuses with melee and ranged touch attacks.

Shadowspell- Shadowspells are slightly less violent than other warmages, preferring to use elements of trickery. Their discipline ability allows them to cast spells without giving away their own position.

Tactician- Tacticians are less about the direct application of force than other warmages, instead prioritizing scouting, mobility, and traps. Their discipline ability allows them to be more effective with either trap or divination spells.

Spellguard- Spellguards focus more on the defensive side of battle, layering protective spells on themselves and allies. Their discipline ability allows them to share their defensive magic with more allies.

Spell Shaping (Ex)- A warmage has exceptional control over where his magic goes. At 2nd level, when casting a warmage spell, he can exclude a number of 5 foot squares from the area of effect equal to his intelligence modifier.

Starting at 13th level, he may increase the area of a spell by a number of squares equal to the number he excluded. The squares must be adjacent to the original area. For example, if a warmage casts Fireball and excludes 3 squares, he may include an extra three squares at any point around the 20ft radius already affected.

Eclectic Learning (Ex)- Warmages are trained almost entirely in magics that will be useful on the battlefield, but they often come up against situations where their power is useless. As they gain experience on the battlefield, fighting with and against any number of spellcasters, they usually pick up a few useful spells from outside their specialty. At level 3, and every subsequent 3rd level, a warmage can add one sorcerer/wizard spell to his list of spells known. This spell can come from any school, but he learns it at one level higher than normal. For example, if a warmage wishes to use Eclectic learning to learn Silent Image (normally a 1st level spell), he casts it as a 2nd level spell.

Sudden Widen- At 4rd level, a warmage gains Sudden Widen as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. However, he may widen spells a number of times per day equal to one-half his intelligence modifier, rounded down (minimum 1).

Warmage Spellpower (Ex)- At 5th level, a warmage can add his Intelligence modifier to caster level checks made to penetrate spell resistance.

Metamagic Specialist (Ex)- At 7th level, a warmage may apply metamagic feats to warmage spells without increasing the casting time.

Warmage Intensity (Ex)- At 8th level, a warmage’s spells are even harder to dodge than normal. His area spells are subdivided into two different zones, an inner zone (defined as the point of origin out to one-half the normal radius of the spell effect) and an outer zone. He may add his Intelligence modifier to the save DC for the effects of the inner zone. Creatures caught in the outer zone still take full damage.

Improved Warmage Edge (Ex)- Starting at 10th level, a warmage may increase the caster level cap of his spells by a value equal to his Intelligence modifier. For example, a Fireball spell normally does 1d6/level, max 10d6. With this ability, a warmage with an Intelligence modifier of +6 would have his Fireball spells deal 1d6/level, max 16d6.

Spellmine Forger (Ex)- By 11th level, a warmage has had lots of practice crafting spellmines. When crafting a spellmine, he only needs to spend one hour working on the mine, and may have it contain up to a 5th level spell.

Simplified Widening (Ex)- At 11th level, when a warmage casts a Widened spell, he only increases the slot by one level.

Enhanced Discipline- At 14th level, a warmage may pick a minor discipline, adding the spells from the discipline list to his list of spells known. He does not gain the benefit of the discipline's granted ability.

Warmage Spellaim (Ex)- At 15th level, a warmage has near-perfect control over where his magic goes. When he uses an area spell, he may exclude as many creatures or objects as he wishes from its effects.

Free Widening (Ex)- At 16th level, a warmage may apply the Widen Spell metamagic feat to any spell he knows without increasing the spell level.

Spellmine Master (Ex)- By 17th level, a warmage has mastered the art of crafting spellmines. When crafting a spellmine, he only needs to spend five minutes/spell level working on the mine, and it may contain up to a 7th level spell.

Discipline Mastery (Ex)- At 19th level, when casting spells from his disciplines, a warmage may add one-half his Intelligence modifier to the spell save DC. This does not stack with the bonus from Warmage Intensity.

Warmage Spellstorm (Ex)- At 20th level, a warmage can cast spells extremely efficiently. As a full-round action, he may cast two separate spells. However, to do so, he must expend an additional spell slot equal to the combined level of the spells he casts. For example, if a warmage uses this ability to cast two fireballs, he expends two 3rd-level spell slots AND a 6th level spell slot.

Bane Casting (Ex)- Any time an enemy is affected by one of your warmage spells, he must make an additional Will save (DC = 10 + the level of the spell that just affected him + your intelligence modifier) or take a penalty on all future spells you cast against him equal to one-half the level of the spell that just affected him, rounded down. If a spell allows a save, the target must have failed that save.

For example, if your intelligence is 18, and you cast Enervation on a white dragon, it must make a DC 18 Will save or take a -2 penalty on all future saves against your spells.

This penalty is not cumulative-- only the highest applies. Thus, if you cast ghoul touch (a second level spell) on a foe and impose a -1 penalty, then cast fear (a fourth level spell), the foe would only suffer a -2 penalty if it failed its save.

Touch Spell Mastery (Ex)- You may add your Intelligence modifier to all melee and ranged touch attack rolls required by warmage spells. In addition, the effect of your warmage edge is doubled for any spell that requires a melee or ranged touch attack.

Misdirection (Ex)- When casting a warmage spell, you may chose to hide the visual display, or have the spell appear to emanate from any point within Close range. This imposes a -10 penalty on any checks to identify who’s casting the spell, and enemy casters must make a Spot check (DC = Class level + Intelligence modifier) before attempting to counterspell you.

1st level Shadowspell spells

Disguise Self- Changes your appearance.

2nd level Shadowspell spells

Darkness- 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.

Invisibility- Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until it attacks.

3rd level Shadowspell spells

Daylight-60-ft. radius of bright light.

Displacement- Attacks miss subject 50%.

Hold Person- Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.

Invisibility Sphere- Makes everyone within 10 ft. invisible.

4th level Shadowspell spells

Hallucinatory Terrain- Makes one type of terrain appear like another (field into forest, or the like).

Inspirational Casting (Ex)- Whenever you cast a spell, allied creatures within 5ft per level of the spell you just cast gain a morale bonus to attack rolls and Will saves equal to one-half you intelligence modifier for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell you just cast. Repeated uses of this ability stack- each time you cast a spell, the duration of the morale bonus increases.

Absorption- You absorb targeted spell energy to power spells of your own

Spellmine- A spellmine is a magical booby-trap, a spell waiting to be unleashed on the first person who passes by. Any spell up to third level can be stored in a spellmine. A spellmine is typically buried under a shallow layer of earth, but can be crafted to blend into the landscape. The spell is triggered by the first solid creature to step on the mine, and takes effect immediately on impact. If the spell only affects a single creature (such as shocking grasp), it affects the creature who stepped on it. If it affects an area, the area is centered on the mine, and the creature who stepped on the mine takes a -4 penalty to his save. A spell that normally requires a touch attack or ranged touch attack to hit automatically hits a creature who steps on a spellmine.

Craft Spellmine [Item Creation]- You can create a spellmine of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know. Creating a spellmine takes one hour per spell level. When you create a spellmine, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a spellmine is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To craft a spellmine, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price. When you create a spellmine, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Any spellmine that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the spellmine.

Changelog

Spoiler

Show

10/26- major overhaul of the class and spell list. Added even more spells known, new class features, spellmines, and so on. Nerfed Eclectic Learning somewhat.
10/27- added a few more spells- primarily buffs and divinations- and a few more class features.
11/01- added disciplines, altered a few other abilities.
11/12- removed the Second Discipline ability, re-posted missing spellmine information.
8/6/13- cut down on disciplines known to keep spell list at a reasonable length.

Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2013-08-06 at 05:28 PM.

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

It seems pretty good. The spell list additions provide him with more overall team support and utility. I also really like the capstone ability, really worthwhile (although I find it hard to say how balanced it is).

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

I'll basically post the same general criticism I give ever warmage, then go detailed:

Why is it that a class that's meant to be amongst the soldiers cannot inherently protect those soldiers from its own effects? If I cast fireball on a battlefield, I don't want to hit the soldier's on my team. An ally-exclusion ability for AoE effects is just begging to be here.

Why is it that a class that fights with mobs of soldiers cannot boost their soldiers' morale? When you're fighting with a bunch of people, AoE ally-only buffs seem like they'd be top-priority.

Now for class-specific things

Lots of dispelling in here. I recommend putting greater dispel magic or at least regular dispel magic at level 1. It really doesn't deserve the 3rd-level slot anyways. And sending should be a cantrip at this point.

If there's a class that has a lot of dispelling, then it is assumed that the class will be pretty close to enemy casters, which means being towards the enemy side, which means probably getting stabbed a lot. So why isn't this class designed to get stabbed a lot?

It's unfair to give improving casting proficiencies over time. When I get magic armor, I will want to use and improve my magic armor over time. With this class ability, every time I get a new armor/shield casting proficiency, I have to trash my old armor and go find a new one or else I won't be competent with my level. A class cannot have item-dependency if the player isn't getting the item for free.

There's a dead level at level 2.... which is basically the worst level to have empty ever. Fill that.

Why is this class a spell level behind? There's really no need.

So is this class meant to excel in war or just be good at combat? Especially with Eclectic Learning (there's only 1 "c" after the "E"), this class just appears to be a sorcerer with a larger list. As a warmage, I have no incentive to do anything outside of say "I spam an SoD on the scariest looking enemy" and wander off to play Smash Bros. Some active abilities that rely on different tactical situations would be great, even at the expense of a level or two of spells.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Originally Posted by YouLostMe

Why is it that a class that's meant to be amongst the soldiers cannot inherently protect those soldiers from its own effects? If I cast fireball on a battlefield, I don't want to hit the soldier's on my team. An ally-exclusion ability for AoE effects is just begging to be here.

That's actually a really good idea. Hmm... how about a slowly-scaling ability to exclude squares from an area attack spell?

Why is it that a class that fights with mobs of soldiers cannot boost their soldiers' morale? When you're fighting with a bunch of people, AoE ally-only buffs seem like they'd be top-priority.[/list]

That's the war-cleric job? Or battle-bards? Mostly I was just going through the sorcerer/wizard list, and I didn't find a lot of spells like this.

Lots of dispelling in here. I recommend putting greater dispel magic or at least regular dispel magic at level 1. It really doesn't deserve the 3rd-level slot anyways. And sending should be a cantrip at this point.

I don't want to get into system fixes here, because if I start I'll be here all day.

If there's a class that has a lot of dispelling, then it is assumed that the class will be pretty close to enemy casters, which means being towards the enemy side, which means probably getting stabbed a lot. So why isn't this class designed to get stabbed a lot?

He gets better armor than most other full casters, and a marginally better HD. The dude's not a gish. Also, the dispelling a) has a medium range, b) is good for getting rid of enemy battlefield control, which doesn't mean your'e in stabbing range, and c) is good for counterspelling.

It's unfair to give improving casting proficiencies over time. When I get magic armor, I will want to use and improve my magic armor over time. With this class ability, every time I get a new armor/shield casting proficiency, I have to trash my old armor and go find a new one or else I won't be competent with my level. A class cannot have item-dependency if the player isn't getting the item for free.

I fail to see how the ability demands that you IMMEDIATELY change your armor- which was presumably effective up til that point.

There's a dead level at level 2.... which is basically the worst level to have empty ever. Fill that.

Have a suggestion to accompany your demand? (I do agree, but I can't think of anything besides moving Warmage Edge down a level)

Why is this class a spell level behind? There's really no need.

I didn't want to turn it into a complete rewriting? All the specialist sorcerers cast like this, and if I change it, I'd have to change them, and the original sorcerer too.

So is this class meant to excel in war or just be good at combat? Especially with Eclectic Learning (there's only 1 "c" after the "E"), this class just appears to be a sorcerer with a larger list. As a warmage, I have no incentive to do anything outside of say "I spam an SoD on the scariest looking enemy" and wander off to play Smash Bros. Some active abilities that rely on different tactical situations would be great, even at the expense of a level or two of spells.

This is supposed to be the high-power arcane caster employed by armies. A squad of flying warmages would be sort of like an air strike, blowing huge holes in enemy lines with AoE. Or they can guard flanks with their battlefield control, or lay down a few buffs when the line really needs to be held (like V did with the giant soldiers in OOTS).
You can certainly play it like you said. But you can play any spellcaster that way. If all the battlefield control isn't going to make this class tactically interesting, I don't know what will.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

That's actually a really good idea. Hmm... how about a slowly-scaling ability to exclude squares from an area attack spell?

Yes yes yes. I actually recommend doing it by giving certain allies immunity, and scaling up the shape of spells as a flavor ability.

That's the war-cleric job? Or battle-bards? Mostly I was just going through the sorcerer/wizard list, and I didn't find a lot of spells like this.

This is a class where "war" is in its name, and the inherent supposition is that it's all about "war". When you have a "war"mage that doesn't actually perform in war as well as a bard (a class with decent SoDs at those low levels as well as buffs), then your design needs some fixing.

I don't want to get into system fixes here, because if I start I'll be here all day.

That's not a fix, that's changing a spell level because it's more pertinent to the class. Similar to how Dismissal is a 4th level Cleric spell but a 5th level Sorcerer spell.

He gets better armor than most other full casters, and a marginally better HD. The dude's not a gish. Also, the dispelling a) has a medium range, b) is good for getting rid of enemy battlefield control, which doesn't mean your'e in stabbing range, and c) is good for counterspelling.

"Better than other full casters" doesn't mean he won't get dropped with a few solid axes to the face. And I'm not advocating a gish, I'm advocating the ability to withstand mobs. The dispelling a) Won't work if the guy casting spells just stands far enough away to hit troops on the edge. If you get close enough to protect all of your troops with dispel, you're close enough to get ganked. b and c) Yes, but you need to be in range of all of these abilities to function properly, and you can't do that from the edge of the battlefield.

I fail to see how the ability demands that you IMMEDIATELY change your armor- which was presumably effective up til that point.

Hyperbole, it's not a god-I-will-die-if-this-doesn't-happen, but let me show you. Imagine you're in a class with a swordsage and a warmage. The swordsage at level 8 gets another badass maneuver to use in combat, while the warmage gets medium armor casting proficiency. Now, if the warmage doesn't go out and get medium armor, it's pretty much like he never gained the class feature at all. So unless the player is going out and spending money, he's not getting a class feature, while the swordsage just gets to use his new maneuver in every combat. In addition to that, the default procedure is procurement through purchase, where the warmage sells his old armor for new armor. The old armor only brings in half of what it was worth, netting the warmage an effective loss of money. So while the swordsage got to use this maneuver for free at-will, the warmage had to go and lose an unfortunate quantity of money (that could have been used buying +stat items or such) on getting new armor. The warmage is at a disadvantage.

That might not seem like a huge deal to you, but losing money has never made my players happy in any game ever, so I recommend providing medium armor proficiency at level 1 and giving no ASF with any armor that the warmage is proficient with.

Have a suggestion to accompany your demand? (I do agree, but I can't think of anything besides moving Warmage Edge down a level)

I didn't want to turn it into a complete rewriting? All the specialist sorcerers cast like this, and if I change it, I'd have to change them, and the original sorcerer too.

.... you would? Is there some sort of inherent universe-containing balance that would be upset by giving this class level-appropriate spells?

This is supposed to be the high-power arcane caster employed by armies. A squad of flying warmages would be sort of like an air strike, blowing huge holes in enemy lines with AoE. Or they can guard flanks with their battlefield control, or lay down a few buffs when the line really needs to be held (like V did with the giant soldiers in OOTS).
You can certainly play it like you said. But you can play any spellcaster that way. If all the battlefield control isn't going to make this class tactically interesting, I don't know what will.

So.... it's a sorcerer with a big spell list. So the army will just employ sorcerers, because sorcerers will be more flexible from the outset. Or they might employ wizards because wizards get spells earlier. Regardless, if there is no reason for a class involving "war" to be chosen for "war", then your design must be rethought.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Originally Posted by YouLostMe

Yes yes yes. I actually recommend doing it by giving certain allies immunity, and scaling up the shape of spells as a flavor ability.

Unless I base ally exclusion on HD, there's no way a low-level Warmage is going to be able to exclude enough allies to make a difference-- remember that the battlefield =/= the dungeon. This class needs to be useful for both. There are going to be several soldiers in a 5ft square (represented by mob rules.) To head off pre-emptive arguing, the discrepancy is only an issue when a PC is on the battlefield, in which case no sane DM is going to control hundreds, or even dozens of low-level soldiers individually.

Anything about buff spells

I think I'm going to remove the mass buffing aspect altogether, and focus on BFC and damage. Why? Because I'm pretty sure making him good at all three would explode class balance. ("Wizards do it better" is never an excuse for anything)

That's not a fix, that's changing a spell level because it's more pertinent to the class. Similar to how Dismissal is a 4th level Cleric spell but a 5th level Sorcerer spell.

You're advocating moving a level 3- and potentially a level 6- spell down to first level, and you cited general usage. Improved Counterspelling and his wide list of spells known should do plenty to help counterspell before he gets Dispel-- and I imagine that most 'real' Warmages will be 6th level elite or so, because that's when he gets Fireball.

stuff about medium armor and getting smacked

He's not going to be good at everything- then you get the Wizard, only you don't even need to work hard to break things. DUSKBLADES don't get medium armor until later, and they're front-line fighters. Your point is well-made, but I'm worried about balance.

.... you would? Is there some sort of inherent universe-containing balance that would be upset by giving this class level-appropriate spells?

Yes. It's called consistency. If anything, I should slow the Wizard down.

So.... it's a sorcerer with a big spell list. So the army will just employ sorcerers, because sorcerers will be more flexible from the outset. Or they might employ wizards because wizards get spells earlier. Regardless, if there is no reason for a class involving "war" to be chosen for "war", then your design must be rethought.

Except that according to fluff, sorcerers are somewhat rare, and there's no guarantee that they'll know useful spells- and basically no chance that two will know the SAME spells. Consistency is important when you have to direct thousand-man armies. Warmages, on the other hand, are trained. They have a standard spell list that should contain most of the spells that are necessary for success on the battlefield.

As far as I can tell, for a class to be "good at war," by your definition, they need a lot of buffs and save or dies? What kind of stuff would YOU change about the spell list?

After I finish a paper, I'm going to go back and add some ally-exclusion stuff. I'll also make up a section about fantasy warfare, as I see it. That will hopefully help clarify some of my design philosophy.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

Unless I base ally exclusion on HD, there's no way a low-level Warmage is going to be able to exclude enough allies to make a difference-- remember that the battlefield =/= the dungeon. This class needs to be useful for both. There are going to be several soldiers in a 5ft square (represented by mob rules.) To head off pre-emptive arguing, the discrepancy is only an issue when a PC is on the battlefield, in which case no sane DM is going to control hundreds, or even dozens of low-level soldiers individually.

Say at 1st and 2nd levels, he can exclude 2 allies per level, and then around 3rd-5th level he can exclude as many allies as he wants. This gives not only flavor-based but mechanical incentive for armies to train their warmages to certain levels of proficiency before war. I can imagine a warmage casting spells with the addendum "don't hurt anyone with Pelor's symbol on their helmet that I can see" in mob warfare.

I think I'm going to remove the mass buffing aspect altogether, and focus on BFC and damage. Why? Because I'm pretty sure making him good at all three would explode class balance. ("Wizards do it better" is never an excuse for anything)

I'm trying to conceptualize BFC, and I can't seem to unravel it. What does BFC stand for? Big Fried Chicken?
And making him good at all three would make the class explode, yes, but making him decent at all three and giving him the option to use all three at any time will make him quite flexible. Sitting around and talking theory doesn't get things done, though; do as you will.

You're advocating moving a level 3- and potentially a level 6- spell down to first level, and you cited general usage. Improved Counterspelling and his wide list of spells known should do plenty to help counterspell before he gets Dispel-- and I imagine that most 'real' Warmages will be 6th level elite or so, because that's when he gets Fireball.

I would rather spend my low-level spell slot to counterspell than spend my fireball to counterspell. You improve the use of his spell slots when he gets to higher levels by making dispel magic available sooner. Also, let me cite polar ray as an example of things that should be low level, and perhaps that will convince you that it really isn't all that terrible to move spells down a few notches in a personalized spell list.

He's not going to be good at everything- then you get the Wizard, only you don't even need to work hard to break things. DUSKBLADES don't get medium armor until later, and they're front-line fighters. Your point is well-made, but I'm worried about balance.

He won't be good at everything. What he will be good at is surviving. He's got a moderate spell list, OK abilities, and medium armor proficiency will keep him alive.

And duskblades are weak classes, barely making it to Tier 3 without optimization by the skin on their fingernails.

Yes. It's called consistency. If anything, I should slow the Wizard down.

All right, then this is definitely a substantial nerf and the early levels are CRYING for attention. Attention being medium armor proficiency and ally exclusion.

Except that according to fluff, sorcerers are somewhat rare, and there's no guarantee that they'll know useful spells- and basically no chance that two will know the SAME spells. Consistency is important when you have to direct thousand-man armies. Warmages, on the other hand, are trained. They have a standard spell list that should contain most of the spells that are necessary for success on the battlefield.

I'm not sure you understand what extent a country is willing to go to in order to win at war. The US spends ridiculous amounts of its budget on military defense, and a nation willing to spend that much can hunt down the sorcerous, get them to reproduce en masse, and train those people from infancy. It can totally happen. (Do you see me arguing fluff versus fluff there? This argument will go nowhere; you can't win an argument based on the opinions that someone like Monte Cook or Skip Williams or I wrote down)

Alternatively, an army will look at the warmage spell list and say "hey, these spells aren't as good as the ones that will win in combat! Use your eclectic learning to learn the better spells!" And all of a sudden the warmage class is using those spells the sorcerers would have provided, and the rest of the class becomes a sidenote.

Alternatively AGAIN, you can look at it from a player's perspective. A player will take this class because they like the name, they like the idea of shooting fireballs in armor, or they want to have a larger spell list (goodness knows why). Any other player will say "Hey, I can take this class that's sort of interesting, or be a sorcerer and pick my own damn spells." And then they will do that. So basically you've got players picking up the warmage over the sorcerer for similar reasons that people pick up the fighter over the paladin/rogue/whatever archtype they want to play.

As far as I can tell, for a class to be "good at war," by your definition, they need a lot of buffs and save or dies? What kind of stuff would YOU change about the spell list?

I wouldn't add to the spell list. I'd drop Eclectic learning or severely limit it, and then add class features like AB boosts, in combat healing, ally-saving, non-spell buffs, constant mobile sight wards, and extra mobility. I might even consider a mount as an ACF. They will now no longer have the opportunity to be compared to SoD-tossers (no spell list stretching and more varied abilities), but they will also be undoubtedly among the top picks for infantry leaders.

I'm going to go back and add some ally-exclusion stuff. I'll also make up a section about fantasy warfare, as I see it. That will hopefully help clarify some of my design philosophy.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

I don't think I'm going to be able to get to this tonight-- stupid midterms-- but I do want to say/ask two things, YouLostMe:

1. What are these "combat-winning" spells you keep referring to? Stuff like Grease and Glitterdust are very useful in the dungeon, but less so on a wide-open battlefield, if only due to their very limited areas.

2. I think the reason we keep butting heads here is that we have very different design goals. I have my vision for the class- damage and battlefield control (BFC)- and you have yours- an armored bard, near as I can tell.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

2. If you want a class that deals damage and uses BFC, you can play a sorcerer and select his spell list for that purpose (and just take the good spells off the list, too). The reason we make classes is to set them apart. What makes your class different from a sorcerer with feats?

My "armored bard" (near as you can tell) is ideally equipped with a variety of non-spell abilities that set it apart from not only the sorcerer but most other T3 classes. That uniqueness, that difference, is a huge slice of what this class is missing.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Before going in-depth with the critique, I wish to point out the following: what one defines to be a proper "war-mage" is subjective. What I believe should be a warmage (which you might check easily, given the title you used for your thread), what you believe, and what YLM believes will differ. I'll go from the perception you mentioned, that you wish to make a "controller" (basically the same role the Wizard and Sorcerer have on 4e), and mention a few irks I have with that, and why you should consider YouLostMe's suggestions.

Having said that:The situation with armor: as it was mentioned to me, I mention it to you; it's a bad idea to give a delayed armor progression to a warmage, particularly one fit to lead. Mostly, it's inconsistent: you don't want your character to be in melee, but you give them medium armor which makes them pretty decent at standing forward, alongside with shields. Bards get light armor and are meant to fight like rogues: landing one or two hits and serving as distraction to the melee character while providing buffs with their songs whenever the rogue can't do so. Either give them medium armor (and the ability to cast spells on medium armor) from the beginning, or don't give them medium armor proficiency at all. That helps to define their role in combat; if you want them to be damage dealers and battlefield controllers, you don't want them to be in the front lines. If your worries are that they might get close to you in melee, you're doing your job wrong. It's as simple as that.

Warmage Edge and upgrades: while at the beginning it may seem pretty good, you might consider doing something else. As it stands, Improved Warmage Edge adds nothing to damage; you add basically 5 points of damage at 20th level. 10 + Int might seem a lot, but only for specific spells: being that they're all standard action spells, unless you're capable of Quickening appropriately you might not get full benefit from your extra damage.

To make this reasonable: if you can't deal (on average) more than half the damage of the average HP of a monster of a Challenge Rating equal to your class level, you're doing little. That's because the average HP of monsters with Challenge Rating equal to your class level define the minimum score to take an enemy with two spells (thus, using a Quickened spell and a regular spell). Doing less than that requires launching three spells, which eventually eat your higher level spell slots; eventually you're left with lower level spell slots, which translate to lower damage, which means you may be wasting spells on your first battle and do a much lesser contribution overall.

Now, consider the spells you have at your disposal. Most of the area damage spells have hard limits, and some of your earlier spells will become useless by the time you reach 18th level or so, leaving you with a very limited amount of spells around that can effectively damage the enemy. Then, you're hit with the idea that you're sharing those spell slots with battlefield control spells, and then you notice that you need to economize your spell slots as much as possible. 5 extra points won't help much in that regard, and the mild amount of damage you add at 1st level won't cut it.

The first part of Warmage Edge could easily be Int + 1/2 your CL, since that involves having Warmage Edge work even if you multiclass. The second could be a raise of the cap of most damage dealing spells, based on your CL or your class (quite probably the latter), so that lower level spells (like Fireball) retain their effectiveness. That way, spells such as Fireball could be used to deal much more damage, and thus save your higher level spell slots for when they're needed. That's effective damage dealing, since you're spending a resource which is more abundant (your lower level spell slots) for an increased benefit.

That said, Warmage Spellpower is the complete opposite. It's a tad too powerful for its level, so you might want to consider raising it. Even if you're basically adding, say, 1 point at that level, any boost in Intelligence becomes an effective boost in caster level for what you need, and if you have no troubles handling Charisma you'll have less troubles handling Intelligence. That can easily turn into a +6, right there, with little effort, and that's when it becomes a problem.

Counterspelling: It's nice to give some love to this oft unused tactic, but you might wish to explain how that enters into the big picture. As you mentioned, you want your warmage to be a damage dealer with battlefield control. Counterspelling is not really battlefield control than it is a denial tactic. You may argue how it allows control because it denies the enemy to control the terrain, but that is really a minor benefit from using a denial tactic. To be put bluntly, counterspelling is the equivalent to countermeasures such as countering missiles with artillery or other such equipment; it is using a weapon to counter another weapon. Dispelling is yet another denial tactic, albeit a great equalizer in that regard (so you might argue it works as a battlefield control tactic, but only when it's at an area). Remember what I said about Warmage Edge adding too little to damage? Well, when your already limited spell slots are further reduced by expending them for counterspells, you want every single point of damage to matter, because you'll be left with lower level spell slots to play with. Quite frankly, I don't see how counterspelling works for a warmage, unless the idea for the character's build is being a mage that denies others their spellcasting (and thus assist your party in winning the battle, at the cost of using your actions basically doing nothing).

No buffing: This is a bad idea. YouLostMe wasn't really trying to make your version of the Warmage into an "armored bard", but trying to debate why buffing is good. You see, you could easily argue buffing is a form of battlefield control; if your allies can cover the distance between your side and the enemy side easier, then you've controlled the battlefield to your advantage because you provide your allies with a tactical advantage. Let's just consider Haste, a nifty 3rd level spell that grants your allies not only extra speed, but also an extra attack. The fact that you're giving your allies an extra attack makes you deal more damage, because without your spell, your allies wouldn't be capable of making one more attack that adds to the overall damage. With the increase in speed, which means they can cover a distance in a shorter time and probably allow for better set-ups, you are reducing one of the constraints of the battlefield, which is the distance between allies and enemies, and increasing towards your damage. That alone fulfills your idea of "battlefield control" and "damage dealing".

Another example is Bull's Strength. This spell will probably seem pointless to you, but there are various ways that it contributes to battlefield control. Add it to a fighter, and your fighter suddenly gains a +2 bonus to their trip checks; if the enemy falls, your ally has suddenly turned into a focus of battlefield control. Give that bonus to a trip-specialized character, and you're making him a better battlefield controller. That doesn't only apply to trip specialists, but also to grapple specialists. That, plus Enlarge Person, make your allies better battlefield controllers, but since it was YOUR spell that allowed it, it's your way of altering the battlefield into your desires (through your allies).

A friend of mine once argued that there weren't four roles in D&D; ergo, there's no "defender, striker, leader, controller". He claimed there were really three roles: DPS, tank, CC. Based on that idea, the Warmage dabbles in DPS but specializes in crowd control. You may argue that buffing is another role (and healing is a form of buffing), but based on his argument, healing and buffing are merely other methods of crowd control or tanking; if you buffed your allies or yourself to resist or deny damage, you were basically tanking, while buffing your allies was another form of crowd controlling (positive crowd control, as you're doing the opposite of debuffing which is negative focused crowd control). While I don't share that ideas with him, it does illustrate one point; you could easily argue that buffing serves to provide battlefield control, since it turns the battlefield to your advantage through enhancing your allies' skill in combat. You don't have to add ALL buffs, but do consider some important ones; for example, if your idea is to add extra damage, why not consider adding Fox's Cunning and Eagle's Splendor? They're buffing spells, but they increase your damage directly and your chances that your spells land successfully, dealing their full damage. There are many other spells you could easily add that share your point of view.

No trap spells: this is a facepalm in the making. You remove some of the warmage's trap spells because they're useless, but traps are the foremost spells of crowd control. By trapping an area, you're denying the enemy the ability to cross into a specific path, for fear of retaliation; thus, you can make them land in areas where your allies await, or risk the chances of crossing the prohibited area and suffer just enough damage to fall by one of your spells.

One set of spells I consider it was wrong for you to ignore are the Glyphs of Warding. That there is not only damage dealing, but battlefield control at its finest. Those spells do damage, and with Warmage Edge they do more damage than the norm, so it's generally a bad idea to cross them; that way, you deny your enemy access to that area, but you may then command your allies to cover those areas that the Glyph or Symbol doesn't cover, so that they're forced to take damage (from your allies or yourself) every time. That's battlefield control, if I'm not mistaken; thus, why it is missing from your version of the Warmage? I have no clue, but I wish to hear something else other than "they suck", because you're adding something that makes them even more useful. Is it the casting time, that it lasts 10 minutes? Control Weather lasts for 10 minutes as well, AND you have it on your spell list. Weather is nice, but taking 10 minutes to make it work as you desire isn't, and it won't see much use eventually unless you're preparing for a big combat (in which you might take your time adding further abjurations, such as...the glyphs, maybe?).

Few debuffs: yet another concern with battlefield control. Notice that when YouLostMe speaks about "the army is gonna hire sorcerers now", he's speaking about the utility of Sorcerers. As many people have mentioned, you only need a handful of spells that deal damage to cover up all fronts (namely, you need at least one or two rays, one or two area attacks, at least three force spells that deal damage to hit incorporeals, and at least two spells that ignore SR and require no saving throw for sure hits), so having many ways to deal damage is redundant. However, landing some debuffs of choice actually helps.

As far as I can see, you seem to place no importance to illusions, which are excellent crowd control spells (Illusory Wall, for example, could convince your enemies that they can't get beyond the wall, stopping them; by the time they figure out it's false, you'll be ready to get them with the spell of your choice, effectively buying time. But, that's no biggie. However, have you noticed you kept one or two necromancy spells on your list? Finger of Death, Waves of Exhaustion, Horrid Wilting...those are spells that you've kept, and you decided in no moment to raid the Necromancy spell list for some choice debuffs that could work, eliminating those few that could work. For example, Warmages have Waves of Exhaustion, but no Ray of Exhaustion or Waves of Fatigue; why not add them? Symbols are formidable methods of crowd control; why not add them? Enervation, Blight, Fear, Eyebite...all great crowd control spells, great debuffs...and they aren't in your spell list. Do you fear threading on the steps of the Dread Necromancer? Fear not; while the Dread Necromancer has debuffs, the DN also focus on minionmancy; you, on the other hand, focus on damage and crowd control, so you'll still have the bulk of your spell within Conjuration and Evocation.

Another thing is getting a few choice Enchantment spells. Hold Person, Hold Monster, Mass Hold Person/Monster make formidable methods of crowd control, and yet I see none. Is it because Protection from X negates them? That's not really something you should worry about, because not everyone is immune to paralysis, and that includes the big and burly bruiser. If you halt him on his tracks, you've added an even better advantage to your party, since you can then coup the target later.

No touch spells: I can see why you neglected them, but this is a horrible idea. As I mentioned, if you don't do crowd control well, you're doing things wrong, but things happen. If that happens, how do you plan on defending? Your escape spells are pretty late, and in those few early levels, you'll eventually have one enemy closing towards you. It's this precise moment in which you're wearing light armor, and hence you're at your weakest. Thus, it is important to have touch range spells for those precise moments. A boosted Shocking Grasp at those moments works better than throwing, say, a boosted Burning Hands because you can kill that enemy faster; if the enemy succeeds on its Reflex save, you're toast, while if you succeed on the touch attack, you'll toast him. And let's face it, most of the time it'll be the Rogue that gets nearby. Thus, while you feel that they shouldn't be on the frontline, touch spells are still useful; later on, you'll get Reach Spell and turn all those spells into close range spells, and some of those spells are extremely useful.

Some of the key CC spells are NOT there: you mention that Grease and Glitterdust are great in small areas but bad on battlefields. If you're an adventurer, guess where you'll be spending most of those times? Furthermore, Glitterdust has only half the range compared to Web, but it attacks Will, which is definitely one of the weaknesses of Fighters, and they get blinded as a result. If the area is a problem, remember Widen Spell remedies that (20 ft. Grease or 20 ft. Glitterdust, easily). Heck, even Darkness (which is an Evocation spell!!) has its uses! Other spells which I mentioned that are battle-winning are Enervation, Hold Person and the line, Slow (attacks Will, and works with the battle currency of D&D which is action economy), amongst others. In fact, it's odd that you didn't kept Pyrotechnics, because it has two uses in a single spell and both are strong debuffs.

--

Finishing this, all of the points address valid concerns. I consider that the spell list should be revised extensively. While some of those spells could be removed easily and provide no problems (Poison, Contagion, Scintillating Pattern come to mind), others are really bad ideas to remove, regardless of the reason. Flame Strike is a formidable example; it's an area spell and half of the damage is unblockable, so it works perfectly with your idea of dealing damage. Why, then, you removed it from the list? That is just one of the various examples where some decisions you took don't make sense in light of your vision of the warmage. All the concerns are not only touching your concept of the warmage, they're also dealing with how the character relates to the rest of the group. The fact that it doesn't have an ability to blast correctly should have been the first sign, but even with such an ability to sculpt spells or make your spells harmless towards your allies, you're still lacking a bit more to be a team player. If your vision of the warmage is to have area blasting spells and...well, area blasting spells (perhaps damage over time area blasting spells), then it's pretty decent even though it could have some more. On the other hand, I see a lot of "personal safety" (rather than party safety; Haste works on that, and while some of your buffs work with that, you're planning to remove mass buffs which makes you less of a team player), and some odd choices of spells removed. Really reconsider the spells you're taking out and why are you taking them out, and retool your spell list a bit more.

Another thing: I agree on lowering your access to higher spell levels by 1 level. Even if all other spontaneous spellcasters do the same, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. I also consider that prepared spellcasters should cast their spells one level late, because they have the advantage of versatility, but that's something different. Even if you're not planning a complete rewrite of the system, that helps the warmage immensely because it makes some of their most useful spells enter play earlier.

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Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc

My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Ok. Let's see if I can't enunciate some concerns here...

I want dealing damage to be the main point of the Warmage class, still. Other things should be on the list, but it should all tie back to causing direct pain.

I acknowledge that buffs, debuss, and so on are highly effective strategy and battlefield control. I also understand that illusions are very powerful when used correctly. But I'm afraid that adding too many different categories of useful spells and assembling a giant list of spells that can all be cast at will could render him overpowered, not to mention rendering sorcerers useless.

He doesn't have to cover every role. An army or adventuring group will probably have bards, clerics, marshals, dragon shamans, and others of the like, who can cover certain roles quite well. A bard, for example, can buff more soldiers more efficiently, and provide healing when it's needed most.

Having said all that, I'd like to focus on one main role- damage- and one or two minor roles- currently, I'm thinking battlefield control (walls, web, etc), and debuffs (especially the mass ones).

Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar

The situation with armor: stuff

Well said. I am convinced. I'm dropping medium armor proficiency.

Warmage Edge and upgrades: feedback

Hmm... very good points. I especially like the idea of upping the dice caps on spells as a form of bonus damage- it's a unique ability that lets you get more mileage out of lower-level spells.

That said, Warmage Spellpower is the complete opposite. It's a tad too powerful for its level, so you might want to consider raising it. Even if you're basically adding, say, 1 point at that level, any boost in Intelligence becomes an effective boost in caster level for what you need, and if you have no troubles handling Charisma you'll have less troubles handling Intelligence. That can easily turn into a +6, right there, with little effort, and that's when it becomes a problem.

I'm... not sure exactly what you mean here. It doesn't boost range or damage of spells, just makes sure that they will hit things more often. I could drop the power to just +Int modifier, though, if that would make it more reasonable?

Counterspelling: wordage

Yeah... again, a well-made point. Ok, this aspect goes away.

No buffing: words, words, words!

I'm not denying that buffing is good, especially with an ability like Warmage Mass Casting. But... again, I want to keep an element of focus to the class, rather than try to make him good at everything. The discussion here (and it is all good, I apologize if I've sounded touchy) is making me more and more aware that "useful in a battle" is an extremely broad category, much too much to fit in a single class.

No trap spells: critiques

Do you know I somehow skipped over the Glyphs entirely? I still maintain that Fire Trap, specifically, is useless, because it hits one creature who opens a door or something, but that's besides the point. What he really needs is a spell that makes a magical minefield of some sort...

Few debuffs: suggestions

Good points all. I presume you saw the above bullet points? Debuffs are going back in!

No touch spells: thing

Yeah... you're right. Not sure what I was thinking- I blame midterms frying my brain.

Some of the key CC spells are NOT there: lists

Yeah... those should be on the list.

I'm about to set to work on the second draft of the class... we'll see how it goes.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

this might be crazy, but what about having an option at one of the mid-low dead levels of creating "delayed" spells
im not sure if its a metagagic feat already in some sourcebook or another, but it seems that bunging, say, a widened grease spell and a fireball spell, or just a couple of webs to mess up enemy positioning, could hve a great effect on battlefield control.
either have them trigger on proximity, or have them triggered as say a swift action at first, then a free action later. personally, i would give the actual mine process no level slot adjustment, since it still needs to be cast and then triggered, and to allow metamagic'd mines (again, this might already be out there, just shooting the breeze)
this would also be a good reason to include buffs, since having a "mass enlarge person" or some such, as a mine, in a formation of allied troops, as they prepare to defend, seems like a very good way of quickly turning the tide and removing a large amount of enemies.
I also agree with the above poster who said that you should add in some slightly less "pure" attack spells, and as for melee...if you followed YoulostMe's suggestion about excluding people, you could exclude yourself from spells, meaning point blank AoE spells that dont damage you?
thats all i can think of.
hope some of that helped :)

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Originally Posted by zegram 33

this might be crazy, but what about having an option at one of the mid-low dead levels of creating "delayed" spells
im not sure if its a metagagic feat already in some sourcebook or another, but it seems that bunging, say, a widened grease spell and a fireball spell, or just a couple of webs to mess up enemy positioning, could hve a great effect on battlefield control.
either have them trigger on proximity, or have them triggered as say a swift action at first, then a free action later. personally, i would give the actual mine process no level slot adjustment, since it still needs to be cast and then triggered, and to allow metamagic'd mines (again, this might already be out there, just shooting the breeze)
this would also be a good reason to include buffs, since having a "mass enlarge person" or some such, as a mine, in a formation of allied troops, as they prepare to defend, seems like a very good way of quickly turning the tide and removing a large amount of enemies.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

Ok. Let's see if I can't enunciate some concerns here...

I want dealing damage to be the main point of the Warmage class, still. Other things should be on the list, but it should all tie back to causing direct pain.

I acknowledge that buffs, debuss, and so on are highly effective strategy and battlefield control. I also understand that illusions are very powerful when used correctly. But I'm afraid that adding too many different categories of useful spells and assembling a giant list of spells that can all be cast at will could render him overpowered, not to mention rendering sorcerers useless.

He doesn't have to cover every role. An army or adventuring group will probably have bards, clerics, marshals, dragon shamans, and others of the like, who can cover certain roles quite well. A bard, for example, can buff more soldiers more efficiently, and provide healing when it's needed most.

Having said all that, I'd like to focus on one main role- damage- and one or two minor roles- currently, I'm thinking battlefield control (walls, web, etc), and debuffs (especially the mass ones).

Warmage Edge and the list of spells should be enough to define the concept of the class. Unlike Beguiler, whose focus is on enchantments and illusions and that uses Cloaked Casting for that purpose, the Warmage doesn't need much to hammer in on the damage dealing. There are three things that make a superb damage dealer: increasing damage, ignoring resistances, and making sure only your enemies get hit. The first is done with Warmage Edge, the second gets done with Warmage Spellpower, and the third desperately needs to get added on. Afterwards, the few other non-damage spells you add will essentially work to increase that damage potential.

Believe me when I tell you this, but sorcerers will still win. Comparing the warmage to the sorcerer is to compare the sorcerer with the wizard. The wizard is where it's at because of versatility; it can always reshuffle its spell list, and when it knows exactly how to tackle the dungeon, it becomes infinitely more useful; meanwhile, the Sorcerer's trait is utility, in which his or her spells can be used for many things and many times per day, but when the Sorcerer's spell can't cover up what you need to do, you suffer a bit. The Warmage's strength is specialization while the Sorcerer's strength is utility; thus, while the Sorcerer can choose a few spells from a very large spell list and work up their way to usefulness, the Warmage has all those spells at its disposal but it can't do much outside its area of work. Expanding the Warmage's spell list to cover some important areas won't make the Sorcerer useless, because the Sorcerer still has their unique spells, draconic feats, ACFs, wands/scrolls/staffs with the spells they don't know, and the spells that provide maximum utility. Consider, for example, that you're negating the Warmage polymorphing spells; that is one thing the Sorcerer will excel at, which the Warmage can't replicate. Likewise, you may add some choice illusions, but the Sorcerer has access to all of them, including those with the greatest benefit. Mirror Image IS powerful, and Blur IS one heck of a defensive spell, but the Warmage lacks the other Image spells or Shadow Conjuration/Evocation which are extremely more useful (in the hands of a caster with imagination). Rest assured, a Warmage with a very extense spell list won't beat the Sorcerer at its turf, not even with Eclectic Learning included.

Regarding overpowered-ness, a warmage would be overpowered if it had access to the entire list of warmage spells. So as long as you don't pull off a Rainbow Warsnake (aka, a Warmage entering Rainbow Servant which adds the entire Cleric list to the Warmage list of spells known), the Warmage will do fine and won't be truly overpowered. Remember the Warmage is already a bit MAD (requires good Int and Charisma for their spells, plus some Dexterity and Constitution for when they breach the Warmage's defenses). The spells won't be what makes the Warmage overpowered; it's the list of abilities that does, and if you restrict them well enough, the Warmage will do fine as a Tier 3 class.

Adding some choice buffs to the Warmage won't make it cover every role. You recognized the importance of touch spells as last-resort spells, so it's a bit odd you're resilient to some choice buffs and illusions. Illusions are an excellent form of battlefield control, but the Warmage would only have access to a choice few that work on the battlefield; both the Warmage and the Beguiler might get Hallucinatory Terrain, but while the Warmage will apply the spell to wide combat zones, the Beguiler might use it to con or trick their enemies at a shorter scale. Some choice buffs indirectly increase your own spellcasting prowess (Fox's Cunning allows you to deal extra damage early on, while Eagle's Splendor helps your spell DCs greatly). Rest assured, you won't outdo the Illusionist or Beguiler at their own game (the Illusionist has many other spells to counter yours, and the Beguiler still has enough Enchantment spells to neuter you, given that you lack both Protection/Magic Circle and Mind Blank spells), nor you will outdo the Cleric (the Cleric can heal, provide buffs the Wizard can't, and fight better than most melee casters given time, so those are three roles you can't cover), and the other classes will suffer not because of the upgrade to Warmage, but from their own weaknesses. Believe me, I worked with a retooled Warmage DMPC and a retooled Paladin DMPC, and while the Warmage became a very useful member of the party, it really didn't outshadow the other members on their own roles (the Fighter and its damage potential, the Paladin with his passive buffs and damage redirection, the Bard with his Inspire Courage and his out-of-combat prowess with Diplomacy, Bluff and Sleight of Hand). It did, however, covered a great deal of what the group lacked (the Bard could easily take the buffing duties, but because of some build troubles, he lacked spells such as Haste and Mirror Image, so the Warmage covered for that), leaving the Warmage to do what it does best; dealing damage. In that case, it's best for the Warmage to be a shortstop that excels on batting, than the designated hitter.

I'm... not sure exactly what you mean here. It doesn't boost range or damage of spells, just makes sure that they will hit things more often. I could drop the power to just +Int modifier, though, if that would make it more reasonable?

The reason I say it's a bit overpowered is because it grants the Warmage a boost on some traits that take some casters a bit to cover. Take, for example, beating spell resistance: the Warmage gains a slow, yet reasonable, boost to caster level checks to beat spell resistance, while a Wizard needs Assay Spell Resistance to do the same. However, you can choose Assay Spell Resistance with Eclectic Learning and outshadow the Wizard in such a terrain. Likewise, with Dispel Magic and similar spells, the Warmage barely needs to roll a 5 or something to dispel the effect; a Wizard needs magic items and feats to do the same, and the Warmage has access to all of those.

Even just using Intelligence modifier makes it powerful, because every time Intelligence goes up, so does this ability. Assuming, say, an Int of 14 at first level, by the time you gain this ability the bonus will be a +2 (+4 with Fox's Cunning). Rolling a 6 on your d20 is enough to bypass spell resistance OR succeed on a dispel check in this way, and that's without mentioning other ways to increase Intelligence. Now, let's assume you went for a Gray Elf in a 32-point buy; that's very close to Int and Cha 18, so that Int can easily go near 20, which means you gain a +5 right from the onset (or a +6, with Eagle's Splendor). At level 5, having a sizeable buff from a class ability seems a bit too much. Compare to the Paladin's Divine Grace ability, which is probably the only reason most people take 2 levels in Paladin (Charisma to saves is phenomenally good).

Warmage Spellpower works great as a buff that increases with class levels. Start with a +1, then grow slowly enough. Maybe make it just work with bypassing spell resistance (adding the bonus to dispel checks might seem a bit too far), and other caster level checks that may impede your spellcasting (such as Concentration?). That way, it grants another incentive to remain pure Warmage as compared to multiclassing.

I'm not denying that buffing is good, especially with an ability like Warmage Mass Casting. But... again, I want to keep an element of focus to the class, rather than try to make him good at everything. The discussion here (and it is all good, I apologize if I've sounded touchy) is making me more and more aware that "useful in a battle" is an extremely broad category, much too much to fit in a single class.

There will still be an element of focus within the class. The fact that you have virtually all Evocation and Conjuration damage spells, Warmage Edge for increased damage and other abilities to blast better indicates your focus is on evocation. If you limit yourself to the buffs and debuffs, you would be better playing a Sorcerer because they can do it better (or a Cleric, or even a Wizard) and you'd be neglecting your main abilities. Mostly, the idea with reworking the Warmage spell list is to provide him with options to do when the main tactic refuses to work as intended; a choice BC spell like Glitterdust or Web or Stinking Cloud might not deal lots of damage, but it helps neutralize the enemy to prevent stuff like immediate action teleportations, immediate action sudden increases to energy resistance based on the damage method, or other forms of defenses. Likewise, it allows for extra damage sometimes, such as in the case of Web and fire spells (the extra 2d4 might not seem much, but when it's coupled with the penalty to Reflex saves, it makes dealing more damage a reasonable option). Staying alive is a great reason why to add some key defensive spells in order to prevent being one-shot by a melee or ranged attacker (or a spellcaster) before you can deal with your own brand of damage, and buffing might allow you to deliver spells that deal even more damage or enable dealing more damage. It depends on how you see it; many things that might not deal damage on their own may enable you to do your work best, and that's what the recommendations are aimed at.

In shorter terms: it's not just being "useful in battle", but also "letting you do your job", as odd as it may sound.

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Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc

My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar

Regarding overpowered-ness, a warmage would be overpowered if it had access to the entire list of warmage spells.

Um... he does. That's kind of the point of the specialized casters- a less versatile list, but you know all the spells.

Do you have a suggestion for a means of making sure people get hit? At the moment, he can penetrate spell resistance a bit better than normal, and has the spell versatility to make sure that he can pick a spell that the target doesn't resist and that will target a weak save. I could see a high-level ability to negate Evasion a few times per day, maybe...

As for the added illusions/buffs... which ones were you thinking, limiting to the appropriate material (core/CA)? I'm guessing you're looking at a list like:

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

hey, i cant seem to find the original warmage spell list online anywhere, but, if they arnt already in, what about stuff like control water and earthquake?
i say this mainly because of the secondary applications of these spells (control water causing a whirlpool at sea, and earthquake draining lakes and then drowining anyone in them, or dropping cliffs (or cave roofs) onto enemies)
that just seemed to be a warmage-y type of skill to have, and while i wouldnt be suprised if they had earthquake already, i kinda wouldnt expect control water
also: the spellmine stuff looks pretty snazzy.
id meant the spellmines as a metagagic feat with either a 0 or a +1 spell slot level addition, but thats probably overpowered, and making literal mines is pretty cool!

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

To improve Warmage Spellcasting, I would make the following change in addition to Eclectic Learning. This change will follow the character into any PrCs he or she might take.

_____________________

Spells:
...When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells for his class, he automatically knows all spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list, as well as one evocation spell chosen from the wizard's spell list of that spell level or lower.
etc etc...

_____________________

If you want to improve Warmage edge, I would make it deal extra damage based on spell level + Int bonus, as opposed to 1/2 class level + Int bonus. This change will follow the character into any PrCs he or she might take.

_____________________

Warmage Edge (Ex): A warmage is specialized in dealing damage with his spells. Whenever a warmage casts a spell that deals hit point damage, he adds a bonus to the damage dealt equal to the spell's level plus his Intelligence bonus (if any). For instance, if a 5th-level warmage with 17 intelligence casts fireball (a 3rd level spell), he deals 5d6 points of damage normally, plus an extra 6 points of damage due to his warmage edge. The bonus from the warmage edge special ability applies only to spells he casts as a warmage, not to those he might have by virtue of levels in another class.
etc etc...

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

Um... he does. That's kind of the point of the specialized casters- a less versatile list, but you know all the spells.

That wasn't what I meant. I was trying to say "regarding overpowered-ness, the Warmage would be overpowered if it had access to the entire list of wizard spells." The Warmage list is lacking, but adding every single spell the Wizard has would be beyond overpowered. That's why Rainbow Servant is so broken for Warmage; it allows you to add the spell list of an entire class to your list of spells known. As it stands, it only adds spells from the Player's Handbook and Complete Arcane, which is only a fraction of the spells you can add, while the wizard can get all those spells and prepare them at their leisure.

Do you have a suggestion for a means of making sure people get hit? At the moment, he can penetrate spell resistance a bit better than normal, and has the spell versatility to make sure that he can pick a spell that the target doesn't resist and that will target a weak save. I could see a high-level ability to negate Evasion a few times per day, maybe...

Adding your Intelligence to ranged touch attack rolls works masterfully. Perhaps not at 1st level, but maybe after some time (say, 5th level or latter). That makes sure you get no problems with touch spells, which are already pretty easy to aim at. Negating Evasion is a bad idea, tho, because you're negating an entire defense, which is something that martial characters depend (well, more like skill-monkeys, but you get the point). You could make it so that the Warmage adds its Int modifier to the saving throw DC of spells with Reflex saves against an enemy that has evaded one of your spells (kind of "you fooled me once, but you won't fool me twice"), or impose a small penalty to Reflex saves if the enemy is near the center of the spell (for example, with Fireball being a 20 ft. radius spell, a Rogue that's within the first 10 ft. gets a penalty to Reflex saves). This retains the utility of Evasion, but makes it harder for your enemies to use properly, which adds to damage, and is elegant to boot (and in terms of the last one, actually credible)

As for the added illusions/buffs... which ones were you thinking, limiting to the appropriate material (core/CA)? I'm guessing you're looking at a list like:

That works fine. You could nix Mass Fox's Cunning and Mass Eagle's Splendor since you get most of the benefit while the rest probably already has the needed buffs. You can probably nix Veil as well, given that you have neither Disguise Self nor Seeming (which are the low-level and single target versions of the spell, respectively). You basically added most of the key defensive spells, so that's alright.

Odd not to see Fire Shield, though; it is a multi-purpose defense that halves damage from an energy type, has a chance to fully nullify the attack, and counters with the opposite energy type to boot. I'd go as far as adding Spell Turning, but that is mostly to reflect back dangerous spells.

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Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc

My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.

You could make it so that the Warmage adds its Int modifier to the saving throw DC of spells with Reflex saves against an enemy that has evaded one of your spells (kind of "you fooled me once, but you won't fool me twice"), or impose a small penalty to Reflex saves if the enemy is near the center of the spell (for example, with Fireball being a 20 ft. radius spell, a Rogue that's within the first 10 ft. gets a penalty to Reflex saves).

Also clever ideas...

That works fine. You could nix Mass Fox's Cunning and Mass Eagle's Splendor since you get most of the benefit while the rest probably already has the needed buffs. You can probably nix Veil as well, given that you have neither Disguise Self nor Seeming (which are the low-level and single target versions of the spell, respectively). You basically added most of the key defensive spells, so that's alright.

Odd not to see Fire Shield, though; it is a multi-purpose defense that halves damage from an energy type, has a chance to fully nullify the attack, and counters with the opposite energy type to boot. I'd go as far as adding Spell Turning, but that is mostly to reflect back dangerous spells.

Huh, not sure why I removed Fire Shield now, it was definitely on the original list... alright, making the changes now. I'm also going to go ahead and add a few low-level divinations, in the name of scouting. I'm thinking Arcane Sight, Arcane Eye+Improvements, and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

I'm considering breaking the list down into the essentials- basic area effects, rays, battlefield control, and self protection- and a variety of specialties, such as debuffing, scrying, buffing, and single-target takedowns. Warmages would select one or two specialties over the course of the class progression, adding a bit of customization and making the spell list less massive. Thoughts?

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Originally Posted by deathking342

nice class, and kudos to you, though I am a bit curious bout why you went with an alternate version of advanced learning.

Thanks. Eclectic learning was a variant from the PHB 2, but I decided to codify it here. Advanced learning was supposed to provide the warmage with versatility, but it really just meant even more damage-dealing spells. Eclectic learning actually fulfills the stated purpose.

Anyway, BIG UPDATE YAY! Now warmages can be customized a little bit, and their expanded spell lists aren't encumberingly large!

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

hey, i like the domains, they're pretty clever
i might be missing something though, but: how do they work?
do you choose one when taking the first warmage level?
also, are they once a day spells, or multiple times per day (say, dependant on intelligence or charisma modifier, or class level to might make you more reliant on fulfilling that role, or what?)

also: for the 8th level shadowspell domain lot, what about :
Screen http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Screen
for ambushes and such, maybe maze or sunburst (maze for the illusion-ness, sunburst for blinding and damaging units of troops)

for both tactician and shadowspell, what about addong grease as a 1st level spell slot
theres not a whole lot of choices that early on, and making the entire area difficult to pass from mine or spell is quite handy

maybe i'd move spellmine forger to say levels 5-7, then have level 11 allowing you to include 2 spell effects up to spell level 3, then at a later dead/quiet level you can up that to 2 effects at level 5, for say 1.5x cost or something, maybe even an extremley minor xp cost just to make players cautious about doing it (say 20xp flat rate, or 1xp per each gp of the spell component or something?)
and maybe id eventually allow the creation of say 7th level mines, cuz by higher levels 5th levl spells arnt going to be doing a great amount

but as a general rule, this looks really fun, and a nicely balanced class :-)
(just throwing idea's out there)

Re: The Better Warmage, or How I learned to Stop Being Useless and Do More Than Blast

Originally Posted by zegram 33

hey, i like the domains, they're pretty clever
i might be missing something though, but: how do they work?
do you choose one when taking the first warmage level?
also, are they once a day spells, or multiple times per day (say, dependant on intelligence or charisma modifier, or class level to might make you more reliant on fulfilling that role, or what?)

At first level, you chose two- a major and a minor. You learn all the spells from both, but you only get the discipline power from the major. At 14th level, you can either pick another minor discipline or gain the power from your existing minor discipline.

The powers are always on.

also: for the 8th level shadowspell domain lot, what about :
Screen http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Screen
for ambushes and such, maybe maze or sunburst (maze for the illusion-ness, sunburst for blinding and damaging units of troops)

Sunburst is on the Bane list (because of the blinding; the damage is way too small to be really useful). Screen... actually, that's a pretty good idea. Sort of an improved Mass Invisibility.

for both tactician and shadowspell, what about addong grease as a 1st level spell slot
theres not a whole lot of choices that early on, and making the entire area difficult to pass from mine or spell is quite handy

Grease is one the main warmage spell list.

maybe i'd move spellmine forger to say levels 5-7, then have level 11 allowing you to include 2 spell effects up to spell level 3, then at a later dead/quiet level you can up that to 2 effects at level 5, for say 1.5x cost or something, maybe even an extremley minor xp cost just to make players cautious about doing it (say 20xp flat rate, or 1xp per each gp of the spell component or something?)

They're based on potions, but-- huh. Just noticed I forgot to post the mechanics for the mines... whoops.

and maybe id eventually allow the creation of say 7th level mines, cuz by higher levels 5th levl spells arnt going to be doing a great amount

There are still some really good options in the 5th level spells (Solid Fog? Slay Living?), but you have a point. Perhaps another upgrade at high levels...

but as a general rule, this looks really fun, and a nicely balanced class :-)
(just throwing idea's out there)