If you're going to vote to force un-wanted children into the world because you feel it's moral, then I hope you have a ton of adopted children you take care of, because the adoption and foster system is already ridiculously over-burdened. A fetus isn't a baby, and there are already far too many children who grow up to be burdens on society because they were not wanted or couldn't be taken care of by the parents. Voting your sense of morality on the nation could result in crack-whores having no choice but to keep babies they don't want and either give them up to a system that fosters abuse and creates terrible situations, or let them grow up in the same environment.

In other words: you are voting for the suffering of children who will likely never have strong parental support or guidance and likely repeat the cycle over again. Think beyond the short sighted "but you're killing a baby" crap. People are made up of our experience and connections to the world, not the cells that divide. Bringing un-wanted children into the world helps NOTHING, especially not the potential child.

And on your last point: It's not the "right of men" to have every child they father taken to term. It's not any mans right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body. Period. It's sickening to think otherwise.

I guess we'd better stop now, though, as this is getting a bit political. Just think about the whole picture, and don't think about it as a cute baby or something that is likely to work out well. It almost never does. That's reality.

+1.The only problem I have with a womans right to choose, is when some women have multiple abortions and simply reguard those abortions as another form of birth control.

Having said that,and getting back to the OT,I think child abuse in ANY form makes my blood boil,especially pedophiles.I could go on about this,buy suffice to say,they are an unnecessary burden on society and serve NO usefull purpose and I'll leave it at that.

I also agree about what we need and don't need,and in doing so, cherry pick the U.S. constitution to satisfy your own political views.

The shopping cart(trolly ?) thing annoys me.It happened to me just yesterday 3 times.The last time,I said politely "excuse me",I then had to say it 2 more times,and the woman finally turns around and says..."Oh..all right for god sakes".She heard me the whole time and just blew me off because of the whole self entitlement thing.

People that hate cops and think all cops are bad cops...just because they had a run in with the police or got a ticket at some time. .Those people are just ignorant,stupid turds.Sorry,no punches pulled here.

Parents that treat parenting as a competative sport,and have their kids involved in so many programs that their children never get to enjoy just being children.

Humanoids that pray on the elderly and thieves,are some of the lowest forms of "life " on the planet.

That's fine, you're entitled to an opinion, but why force your opinion on others by vote? If you don't like abortion, don't have one. The fact that you are so against it probably leads me to believe that you would care for your children to the best of your ability. This is simply not the case for a whole lot of people. Do some research on the number of abortions done in this country, let alone the rest of the world.(hint: it's measured in millions annually) If you can honestly tell me that all those unwanted children would be better off being forced onto un-willing parents or the foster system, maybe you can have a leg to stand on.

Children should be brought into the world because they have loving and willing parents. Not because someone thinks that abortion is "killing a child" and checks a box on a voter form to force that opinion on everyone else. Nobody should ever be able to vote away someone's rights, ever. The right to your own body and it's functions is about as basic as it gets.

I only just recently turned 18. I refuse to vote on anything that would force anyone to do anything they don't want to. As my little brother puts it, that would be rape. (Or just like it.) I hate rapists, pedophiles, etc... they disgust me. But I'm not forcing my opinion on anybody. I am only stating it.

I will say though, I reserve my right to defend my family and property with a gun. I'm from Texas, so the death penalty is in my working vocabulary. Ironic, eh?

__________________
"I fear a world where the rich and poor do better than the middle class." - Christian W.

Children should be brought into the world because they have loving and willing parents.

With my biggest respect to being tolerant with anybody's rights and freedom, and my
biggest respect for having good thoughts on women in very difficult situations, but:
I'm not sure if we really are to decide if an unborn child's future will be "sufficiently comfortable" or if abortion would be the better solution...?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Watso

The right to your own body and it's functions is about as basic as it gets.

I'm pretty sure that an unborn child isn't a part of one's own body in that sense, nor a
function of it. Have you ever seen an sonogram of an unborn a few weeks old? Have
you seen what abortion does to the child?

I just wonder, we think about everybody and everything, but who actually thinks on the fetus?

With my biggest respect to being tolerant with anybody's rights and freedom, and my
biggest respect for having good thoughts on women in very difficult situations, but:
I'm not sure if we really are to decide if an unborn child's future will be "sufficiently comfortable" or if abortion would be the better solution...?!

I'm pretty sure that an unborn child isn't a part of one's own body in that sense, nor a
function of it. Have you ever seen an sonogram of an unborn a few weeks old? Have
you seen what abortion does to the child?

I just wonder, we think about everybody and everything, but who actually thinks on the fetus?

The abortion debate isn't about women's rights, or "keeping laws off my body", or any of that. People are getting side-tracked. What it REALLY comes down to is an individual's definition of when it's "okay" to terminate a life. Some people become so disillusioned, or cloak themselves heavily in denial or propaganda, that they mask what they are actually doing or fighting for the rights to do, which is terminating a human life. Different people who support the practice draw the line at different points of the pregnancy, some even drawing the line right at the point of delivery, but it's all the same--ending a human life. I wish "pro-choice" supporters would just acknowledge this. They use different phrases, like abortion procedure, or pregnancy termination, etc. etc. etc. to divert attention away from the fact that they are terminating a human life. It's a means to help the individuals sweep the reality under a rug. If they would just call it like it is, like: "I support ending a human life up to ____ weeks/months gestation, because at that point the fetus isn't viable (or whatever justification...)." then we could actually get somewhere with the discussion/resolution of the debate. But, until that point, both sides will be side-tracking and endlessly dancing around the issue. When the sides come to common terms, THEN and only then can society weigh the pros and cons of what makes it justifiable, like health or socio-economic concerns (I'm speaking for America here, because that's where I see the debate happening...)

The same issue is at the core of assisted suicide and death penalty debates. At what point can we justify, in our own minds, ending a living human being's life?

The abortion debate isn't about women's rights, or "keeping laws off my body", or any of that. People are getting side-tracked. What it REALLY comes down to is an individual's definition of when it's "okay" to terminate a life. Some people become so disillusioned, or cloak themselves heavily in denial or propaganda, that they mask what they are actually doing or fighting for the rights to do, which is terminating a human life. Different people who support the practice draw the line at different points of the pregnancy, some even drawing the line right at the point of delivery, but it's all the same--ending a human life. I wish "pro-choice" supporters would just acknowledge this. They use different phrases, like abortion procedure, or pregnancy termination, etc. etc. etc. to divert attention away from the fact that they are terminating a human life. It's a means to help the individuals sweep the reality under a rug. If they would just call it like it is, like: "I support ending a human life up to ____ weeks/months gestation, because at that point the fetus isn't viable (or whatever justification...)." then we could actually get somewhere with the discussion/resolution of the debate. But, until that point, both sides will be side-tracking and endlessly dancing around the issue. When the sides come to common terms, THEN and only then can society weigh the pros and cons of what makes it justifiable, like health or socio-economic concerns (I'm speaking for America here, because that's where I see the debate happening...)

The same issue is at the core of assisted suicide and death penalty debates. At what point can we justify, in our own minds, ending a living human being's life?

I think this is well stated. My english teacher told me once that the biggest issue with making progress is that two sides to every debate just want to insult each other to no end. One side saying, "You all hate women!" and the other side saying, "You all kill babies!" Until we find some middle ground, progress can't be made. I would at least like to make some kind of compromise. At least in that deal, no one's happy.

__________________
"I fear a world where the rich and poor do better than the middle class." - Christian W.

When I started this thread it was meant to be little tongue in cheek bit of fun, its turned into a particularly heated debate on a tender issue, this was not what I intended.
I am personally quite perturbed that my very existence 'wouldn't matter' and wish I had not started this thread as I think people are getting way too involved. I would be grateful if a moderator locked this thread off.

__________________'I STILL wanna be the man with the 50lb hammer...'www.reverbnation.com/jonnysumo

When I started this thread it was meant to be little tongue in cheek bit of fun, its turned into a particularly heated debate on a tender issue, this was not what I intended.
I am personally quite perturbed that my very existence 'wouldn't matter' and wish I had not started this thread as I think people are getting way too involved. I would be grateful if a moderator locked this thread off.

Since I was the one to have brought up the idea, I believe I should be the one to apologize. Unfortunately, I have ideas that I am very passionate about, and this shouldn't be the place to discuss it. Even in the off-topic section, I have turned friends into two-sided enemies. I digress. I do not want those to have been hurt by either side to remember me as the problem causer.

For Johnny, I have always believed everyones existence to be their own right. Without having known personal past, I am sorry this had to be a touchy subject brought up by one as myself.

__________________
"I fear a world where the rich and poor do better than the middle class." - Christian W.

It would have kind of mattered to me Dr ....as I said; all I was doing was recording my experience.

Nonsense. You're not that important. You or I don't really matter in the universe any more than a gold fish in a bowl. Had you been terminated prior to having a sense of self or connections to the world, I'm quite sure you wouldn't care, because "you" as you are wouldn't exist. The world would continue.

I'm not sure if we really are to decide if an unborn child's future will be "sufficiently comfortable" or if abortion would be the better solution...?!

No, I am not, nor are you. It should be a very private, very serious thing that the potential parents should decide on their own. There should absolutely not be any laws threatening people because some self-righteous individuals believe they can call the shots for everyone, and the world is better off with literally millions and millions of un-wanted children which are currently aborted each year.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure that an unborn child isn't a part of one's own body in that sense, nor a
function of it.

A fetus isn't part of the body? Reproduction isn't a function of the human body? Did you think this one through? Will the cells continue to divide and develop if the woman's body isn't part of the equation?

Quote:

Have you ever seen an sonogram of an unborn a few weeks old? Have
you seen what abortion does to the child?

Sure. Ever seen the dead look an abused foster child has in their eye? I have. It's much more disturbing than an aborted pregnancy.

Quote:

I just wonder, we think about everybody and everything, but who actually thinks on the fetus?

That's exactly who I'm thinking of. All that matters is the potential child. We should be giving our potential children every advantage and all the love we can possibly provide. Outside of our little bubble, there are so many conditions where this isn't possible that we could list them all day long.

We don't have a place for all these poor kids. We aren't just talking about capable 15 year olds who have an accidental baby. The world is full of terrible situations we can't even fathom from our computer chairs.

I think this is well stated. My english teacher told me once that the biggest issue with making progress is that two sides to every debate just want to insult each other to no end. One side saying, "You all hate women!" and the other side saying, "You all kill babies!" Until we find some middle ground, progress can't be made. I would at least like to make some kind of compromise. At least in that deal, no one's happy.

Rational people do not make these arguments. You'll notice I have said nothing of the sort. The closest I come to what you're talking about is abhorring the idea of forcing people to do or not do something with their own bodies.

For me, abortion rights aren't about the inconvenienced parents. It's about the potential children. We can prevent unwanted children from being brought into the world. We can do it many ways, and this last-ditch option of pregnancy abortion must remain available for the sake of the potential children. As well, we could be putting a lot more resources into things like making birth control freely available. Ironically, it's typically the anti-choice crowd who trumpets the evils of allowing access to all birth control methods including abortion.

This thread was supposed to be closed and I stopped arguing the subject out of respect for Johnny's feelings.

Which is it? Because I'm a fool and my arguments are invalid, or because of Johnny's feelings?

Quote:

Come back to argue like a rational individual when you decide to grow up and respect others' wishes.

Firstly, I've been quite rational, and haven't resorted to any direct name calling as I'm not frustrated by simple conversation.

Rather ironic to tell me to grow up in such a post, after some name-calling, no less. For the record, I hadn't even noticed the post where he called to close the thread. Apparently, he didn't realize the potential for debate in a thread dedicated to talking about issues that get us riled up.

At any rate, I guess we will drop the issue. It's not like any minds will open as a result of this anyway.

Come back to argue like a rational individual when you decide to grow up and respect others' wishes.

What's that old addage about pots and kettles?

What made you think a drum forum was an appropriate place for your anti-abortion rantings in the first place? It's an all too easy argument for a teen male given it's not a decision that he's ever gonna have to make, no?

Suggest you walk a mile in the shoes of someone who has had to sincerely weigh up this heartbreaking decision before blowing your stack next time.

Right. It's about time I tried to explain why I'm so annoyed about the direction this thread has taken.

Many years ago, I had a girlfriend. At the time, I was sixteen and relatively inexperienced. Sparing everybody the details, there was a possibility that she was pregnant and was significantly late on her cycle. We were seriously thinking about our options and many hard decisions were hypothetically made. As part of this stress, I actually had a day at school where I just collapsed out of exhaustion and had to be shipped off to another room for most of the day - and I didn't tell anyone what was going through my head.

It turned out that she was not pregnant but I had every reason to believe that she may have been. As a sixteen year old kid, that is a scary place to be, especially when you have very few friends and parents that, whilst very loving, are impossible to talk to about matters personal. There are many people out there in situations worse than mine but it severely affected my mental health to the point where I was basically incapable of functioning for some time. This was nine years ago.

A couple of years later, a friend of mine was pregnant by her ex-boyfriend, who had run scared when he found out. She was asking me for advice. All I said is that she does what she feels is right and I will support that decision. She went ahead with the pregnancy and now has a seven year old son - after sitting in the termination clinic and deciding to leave at the last minute. She was seventeen. I had a friend that made the opposite choice and now she is ready to bring a child into the World and feels that she can give it the best chance that she can for a happy and fulfilled life - she is now five or six months in and scared but excited. She was twenty when she made the first decision and now she is twenty-four. For the record, I'm twenty-five.

In none of the above cases (even my own) have I ever considered telling or instructing the women involved what to do. It's not my body. I might have my own thoughts, feelings and considerations but I have absolutely no right to attempt to force someone through a procedure, especially one that has the emotional impact that a termination has - or has the potential to have. At the same time, some people will weigh up their options and will conclude that they are just not ready to have a child. They might be destitute, they might be in a bad relationship, they might be homeless, any number of things. In those situations, it may be in the best interests to end the pregnancy and hopefully do so before there is a viable, survivable human life.

I believe that people should have the choice to decide. I'm not advocating that it isn't qualified, I'm not advocating that it should be a quick, unsupervised and uninformed decision. I'm not advocating that it should apply in all cases and I'm not trying to say that everybody makes a decision that I am personally happy with - but in the end it is not up to me what people decide to do and the best thing is to simply support them emotionally and physically if necessary, regardless of my personal views on the subject.

So - outright ban? You can shove that where the sun doesn't shine. Qualified, informed choices with restrictions and regulation? Yes. Spurious terminations on a whim? No.

I hope that's reasoned enough Draco. You're ruffling an awful lot of feathers at the moment and whilst you have strong views on the subject and I applaud your conviction, I doubt you speak with any experience or empathy.

I, as well, have had several friends contemplate pregnancy termination (some going through with it, and others not) and am no stranger to the multiple factors that accompany it. Not an easy decision by a long shot. Grueling, in fact. My heart goes out to people who have been in that situation.

With that said, I sincerely hope that nobody took my long-winded post in a negative way. I was merely trying to convey that if people on both sides of a controversial "issue" (be it abortion, homosexuality, global warming, etc...) don't agree on what the fundamental disagreement actually is, there can be no hope of a resolution, or even a rational discussion.

Hehe - everyone wants to get off this treadmill but we just have to wait for the momentum to settle :)

Tough topics. It's a changing world with new problems cropping up all the time. I was told about a study that showed a reduction in crime about about 15-20 years after abortion was legalised in Australia. Fewer unwanted children means fewer hurt and damaged people causing more hurt later on. My guess is that judicious abortion laws would result in reduced suffering for the most part.

Another tough topic - assisted suicide. I get angry about the fact that terminally ill people are given no say as to the manner and timing of their death. It would seem a terrible imposition by society to coerce powerless, dying people into enduring extra suffering.

I've also been angry at the way Sydney's live music scene died out, mostly due to poker machines ... could this be a positive development?

Personally, I think the best thing would be to legislate against gaming machines in pubs but even then, I think the horse has bolted. It's a new era, with increasingly more emphasis on narrative and less on music.

When 'she who must not be named', (my ex-wife), uses manipulation of the children and their potential opportunities to 'get back' at me.

Example: I had organized a trip to the US and Disneyworld for this last month. 'She who..' originally agreed it would be a great idea for them, so we, (the kids and I) spent months planning every detail. Several months later I was in need of some paperwork to finalize the passports for the kids. She refused to give it, and tried to blackmail me for money and a written statement that would have effectively been perjury, (and untrue!). Long story short, we were unable to go on the trip due to her spite and hatred towards me, so the kids missed out on a once in a childhood's experience. Not to mention their extreme disappointment and sadness. And yet 'she who...' considers this to be my fault, and has proceeded to tell the kids just that.

Nothing pisses me off more than this kind of selfishness.

On a side note, Grea, how did the pokies kill the live music scene in Sydney? I guess we're lucky in WA not to have them, but to kill off the music?

__________________
It's better to sit in silence and be thought a fool, than open ones mouth and remove all doubt..

Seems to me that population is the crux of the biscuit in any major problem. Some believe inequity is a bigger issue but I see it as a constant and a given - I base my view on human history and also what I've seen of animal social behaviour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonnygrabber

On a side note, Grea, how did the pokies kill the live music scene in Sydney? I guess we're lucky in WA not to have them, but to kill off the music?

Yep. Most of the bars replaced live music with pokies when they had the chance. Simply more profitable. Plus no noise complaints. Plus fewer yahoos and damages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee

Yup, way way too many people in this world and like I said earlier, I dont like most of them. Crawling all over the planet like ants. eek. I got no place to hide. Makes my blood boil.

Okay Abe, I think you need a touch of Pollyannish sunshine!

Not long ago I was on holidays and watched the sun set over the beach, framed by palm trees, a gentle breeze etc. I had one of those "Oh wow, the earth is such a paradise" moments.

Then it struck me that if I was dumped in this "paradise" without all the mod cons and facilities created and provided by annoying humans I'd be up sh1t creek without a paddle. Maybe survive a few days.

All those irritating people ... their industry, ingenuity, imagination, strength, kindness, courage, cleverness, goodwill and occasional idiocy makes our lives safer and more pleasant than arguably any other time and place in history.

When 'she who must not be named', (my ex-wife), uses manipulation of the children and their potential opportunities to 'get back' at me.

Example: I had organized a trip to the US and Disneyworld for this last month. 'She who..' originally agreed it would be a great idea for them, so we, (the kids and I) spent months planning every detail. Several months later I was in need of some paperwork to finalize the passports for the kids. She refused to give it, and tried to blackmail me for money and a written statement that would have effectively been perjury, (and untrue!). Long story short, we were unable to go on the trip due to her spite and hatred towards me, so the kids missed out on a once in a childhood's experience. Not to mention their extreme disappointment and sadness. And yet 'she who...' considers this to be my fault, and has proceeded to tell the kids just that.

I understand about ex wives and their relation to Satan.These daughters of the devil seem to never get tired, when it comes to trying their best to make your life miserable,even when they initated the break up.

I get the whole using your children against you thing.

Just be consistant,and be the best parent you can be under the circumstaces and let the kids make up their own mind.

That's the best you can do.There will come a point where brain washing by the she demon and evidence will over ride each other.Trust me.

Work makes my blood boil.
--I have to drive 1-1/2 hours across LA everyday just to get there, then it's 1-1/2 - 2 hours to get home.
--I have to silently listen to conservative talk radio all day because I have to share the office space with an 82 year old man who never says a word to me unless there are corrections to make on a map.
--My seat is broken and they won't replace it. It's very uncomfortable and I have to sit in it all day.
--Because of this recession and an overly abundant supply of job seekers, I am making the same wages that I made in 2002 when I started this "career". Barely a dollar over entry-level wages.
--These cheap bastards never update their computers. I work with an older woman and my boss and they are locked into the dinosaur 90's as far as computers are concerned. So everything we do in that office has to be converted down to these old, archaic programs because I guess it's hard to teach an old dogs new tricks. Plus, training costs money.
--In addition to that, I get no internet at my desk. I can use the boss' computer in the morning before they get there if it's absolutely necessary.
--Even though our building has a parking garage, I have to park out on the street everyday.

There actually are a couple good things, but they are very few. It's hell on earth for me, but I'm lucky just to have a job because they aren't easy to come by working in this field.

This is what happens when you open up a can of negativity. It grows and expands. Don't forget your gratitude of all the things you are taking for granted right now. Paul, bring your own chair in. And can't you get internet on a smart phone? You could get headphones and listen to what you want on a walkman. Or go and change the station and threaten the old guy if he tries to change it. All problems have solutions. Except Sonny's lol. Steve's great post....agree totally. When the kids are older, they will know where their bread gets buttered. In the meantime, take the high road. Your kids will always treasure you, you are their hero.

As good as Jonny's intentions are/were, these kinds of threads usually degrade into a mess.

-The fact that the world practically forces everyone to eat unhealthy. You can go to any fast food joint and get a meal for less than $5. It costs way too much to eat healthy. Can’t they just tax the crap out of junk food like they do tobacco, alcohol, gas, etc. and make healthy food a more affordable option?

-This country’s (USA) dependency on drugs/chemicals to combat any perceived or actual disease.

-The fact that the world practically forces everyone to eat unhealthy. You can go to any fast food joint and get a meal for less than $5. It costs way too much to eat healthy. Can’t they just tax the crap out of junk food like they do tobacco, alcohol, gas, etc. and make healthy food a more affordable option?

-This country’s (USA) dependency on drugs/chemicals to combat any perceived or actual disease.