[FREE IRAN Project] In The Spirit Of Cyrus The GreatViews expressed here are not necessarily the views & opinions of ActivistChat.com. Comments are unmoderated. Abusive remarks may be deleted. ActivistChat.com retains the rights to all content/IP info in in this forum and may re-post content elsewhere.

Some say Omar Khayyam was an agnostic. Of that I cannot be completely sure, but I know he wrote the following:

None answered this; but after silence spake
A vessel of a more ungainly make:
“They sneer at me for leaning all awry;
What? Did the hand of the potter shake?”

Edward Fitzgerald’s English translation

I am an atheist. I was born a Moslem, but began examining those beliefs during adolescence. At the time this was a very anxiety-producing struggle for me, as holes were appearing in the “God theory.” What I was always taught as the fundamental truth was looking more like a fairy tail with each passing day.

What shook my beliefs was the irreconcilability of the existence of God with the facts of this world. If logic and common sense are used objectively, God’s existence becomes highly questionable. A few interesting questions, which past philosophers have also struggled with include:

1) Why does evil and calamity exist in our world?
2) Where is God to help us against these evils and calamities?
3) If God wants to help but cannot, is he truly omnipotent?
4) If everything that happens is God’s will, we are bound by fatalism, so can anyone be faulted for their actions, and subsequently punished by God?
5) Why has God chosen to always conveniently conceal himself? At least he should appear once a millennium, to let us know he is still there, instead of “indirectly” reminding us by sending floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes
6) Is God bipolar? Tenderly loving us one minute, and utterly destroying us the next
7) Why were the people who lived before the times of Mohammad, Jesus, and Moses denied the knowledge of the “true God,” and therefore condemned to a pagan life on earth and to Hell afterwards?
8) “Thou shall not kill” is his commandment. Yet it is fine to kill, if it propagates his message?
9) During “Holy Wars,” if God is on “our” side, then who is on “theirs?”
10) Why did he promise the same land (Israel) to at least two different people?
11) Are you ready for this one……..WHO CREATED HIM?

This list is of course, inexhaustible. And these are thoughts that arise without even considering science. I consider myself a scientist. Anyone who is a true scientist accepts only that which is reproducible, and fits the available data and observations. This is the scientific method. Models and theories need to be made to fit the observations, not the other way around. If a theory is or later becomes inconsistent with the data, that theory needs to be abandoned, or at least modified. This is how humanity has struggled to reach the truth. When Einstein’s theory of relativity showed that the long held Newtonian Mechanics were incomplete, and broke down at very high speeds, science was ready to accept the new observations and the improved theory. No one issued a fatwa or a crusade to suppress this heresy.

The bubonic plague of the middle ages, which affected the whole world, but mostly Europe, was actually the great catalyst of science. Since ancient times, people had mostly just accepted everything they were told by their clergy, and faith in God was at a peak. But when they saw everyone dying around them, and the clergy either could offer no help or simply abandoned them in order to save themselves, many people began questioning God. They realized that if they were to avoid such catastrophes, they would have to act on their own, and take charge of their environment and their destiny. The roots of the renaissance and subsequent modern science took hold partly because of this plague.

Of course, science cannot explain everything, and there are some things which it probably will never answer. We understand and accept these limitations. But it is science that gave us our computers, improved farming, put us in space, gave us medicines and surgical techniques, doubled our life expectancy, and allowed us to better understand the world around us. So if you want to pay homage and thank someone, thank science and the scientists, not the imaginary man in the sky.

Now I know that if you keep backtracking a question far enough you will reach the eventual response of “I don’t know.” No one can answer why the laws of nature are what they are. We can only observe their existence, and because of their reproducibility, predict to some certainty how they will result in a future event. From a practical standpoint, that is all we need. The difference between a scientist and a person of faith is that the latter has chosen to distill all these unknowns to one answer: because of God. But the faithful person will eventually get stomped also, if we ask: And where did your God come from? Did another God create him? Or does he simply exist, and always existed, without creation? If you are prepared to accept that answer, why can’t you accept the answer that the Universe has always existed, without anyone’s creation? Both answers are stale, and weak. But I am prepared to say that I do not know the true answers behind the mysteries of the Universe, and probably never will. People of faith have no claim to such answers than anyone else.

As far as proving the nonexistence of God, well that is close to impossible. I would challenge anyone to prove the nonexistence of Santa Claus or a dragon living at the center of the earth. Proving a negative is impractical, but that doesn’t mean we should conclude that it must therefore exist. Based on logic and science, although we can concede that nothing can be stated with 100% certainty, the chances of the existence of God, Santa Claus, and dragons are infinitely close to 0%.

Some people think that because I am an atheist I have no religion. This is not true. I define religion as a belief system. We all believe in something that we hold dear. For some, it is out of sight, and in the sky. For me, it is more tangible. My religion is my love for my family, love for Iran, love for science, and love of my history.

If I am wrong, I am prepared to go to Hell when I die, just as I am prepared for and accept that my friend the dragon never visits me, and that I never receive gifts from Santa Claus on Christmas. Hmmmmm……., believing in imaginary things could have its fringe benefits…….. perhaps I should rethink this……

Amir

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
-Dalai Lama _________________I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage

I respect your conclusions. And I see how you came to them. I was born a Christian. I too began exploring my beliefs during adolescence. I too found many holes in what I believed. But unlike you I found that many of the "holes" were in fact deeper understandings of God. The deeper I dug, the more truth I found until I have come to the point were I cannot deny there is a God. And though I am not a perfect person I cannot deny his love. Like the lyrics to a popular P.O.D. song say "Now that I know you, I can never turn my back away; and now that I see you, I can never look away." I would like to answer your 11 questions, though I do not expect you to believe what I say and I do not claim to be the ultimate authority on such things, I can only answer with what my heart tells me.

AmirN wrote:

1) Why does evil and calamity exist in our world?[/b]

Because there are forces at work that want you dead.

AmirN wrote:

2) Where is God to help us against these evils and calamities?? [/b]

He is always here and he grieves when you grieve. And he hurts when you hurt.

AmirN wrote:

3) If God wants to help but cannot, is he truly omnipotent? [/b]

It isnt that he cannot, but that he will not.

AmirN wrote:

4) If everything that happens is God’s will, we are bound by fatalism, so can anyone be faulted for their actions, and subsequently punished by God? [/b]

Unfortunatly not everything that happens is God's will. He allows us to have it our own way if we want. we are not slaves to his will, but we can obey him if we want to. And he is overjoyed when we do obey him.

AmirN wrote:

5) Why has God chosen to always conveniently conceal himself? At least he should appear once a millennium, to let us know he is still there, instead of “indirectly” reminding us by sending floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes [/b]

The simple answer is that he wants to desperately but he knows that if he does, you will DIE. Moses saw him face to face and it almost killed him. but it didnt because he was pure enough in spirit that a small dose of his presence only irradiated his face. He loves you too much to kill you just so you can see him. And he doesn't send earthquakes and floods and the like to remind you that he is there. That is only a symptom of the cursed world we live in.

AmirN wrote:

6) Is God bipolar? Tenderly loving us one minute, and utterly destroying us the next [/b]

God loves you tenderly even if you spit in his face! He would never want to destroy you but there is another that does. And he has alot of power in this world.

AmirN wrote:

7) Why were the people who lived before the times of Mohammad, Jesus, and Moses denied the knowledge of the “true God,” and therefore condemned to a pagan life on earth and to Hell afterwards? [/b]

You don't need Moses, Mohammed or even Jesus to tell you what is right and what is wrong. That you know already in your heart. You know it is evil to kill, steal, or lie! Those who lived their lives according to what was right are not condemned. But unfortunately we are stupid beings that still make mistakes and bad choices. So God set up a system for attonement. You had to kill an innocent animal in your stead to cleanse you of the evil you commit. But God loved us so much that he sent a "perfect lamb." Jesus made it even easier by making "the once and for all" sacifice. Now all you have to do is believe in Jesus and caste all your evils on him. And your sins are already taken care of.

AmirN wrote:

“Thou shall not kill” is his commandment. Yet it is fine to kill, if it propagates his message? [/b]

Actually it says "Thou shall not MURDER" Killing to protect those you love is not a sin because it is not done out of selfish reasons. But to kill to propagate his message goes against everything he stands for. God does not want slaves, he wants people who freely choose to worship him not those who are made to.

AmirN wrote:

9) During “Holy Wars,” if God is on “our” side, then who is on “theirs?” [/b]

God would never declare "holy war." The very thought of it is evil. God is only on the side of those who fight for unselfish reasons. IE to protect what you love.

AmirN wrote:

10) Why did he promise the same land (Israel) to at least two different people? [/b]

God only promised the land to the decendants of Abraham. Not specifically to the Jews but the Jews are the only ones who have obeyed Gods law so I would say that God favors them. How else can you explain the Six Day War? Both Jews and Arabs are the decendants of Abraham and they both live in the land. Obviously God kept his promise.

AmirN wrote:

11) Are you ready for this one……..WHO CREATED HIM? [/b]

This one should be obvious. NO ONE DID. He created everything. But unfortunately our limited human brains can't grasp the infinite complexity of him so we can't fathom an uncreated being. We weren't designed to. But thats part of the beauty of God.

I can tell from reading your post that something very terrible happend in your past and you called on God with all your might but he didnt do anything or he didnt do what you wanted. And so you became angry with God. and you wanted to find a way to hurt him. For not being there for you. So you chose to not believe that he was even there. I understand. Something similar happened to me. And I begged God to do something but he didn't and someone very close to me died. And so I became hateful towards God. I felt betrayed. Why wasn't he there? But he was there. And he cried too. God doesn't send anyone to hell. They send themselves there because they were unwilling to let Jesus be their "lamb."
I can see that this world has been cruel to you and I want you have the peace that I have. I dont expect you to believe me. I'm just "another religious person" to you. You believe in science. "What proof do I have" you ask? One day you'll find out. _________________You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan

Thank you for giving this essay your time, and for taking even more time to give your honest reply.

Though we obviously disagree, and though the answers you provide to my points still don’t satisfy me, I can accept them as your honest and personal convictions. I won’t give a rebuttal to these points.

However, I would like to address one particular statement of yours.

Quote:

I can tell from reading your post that something very terrible happend in your past and you called on God with all your might but he didnt do anything or he didnt do what you wanted. And so you became angry with God. and you wanted to find a way to hurt him. For not being there for you. So you chose to not believe that he was even there. I understand.

This assumption is actually not true. I did not reject God because of a personal tragic event. Actually, thank God (he… he… he…), I have had a very happy and fulfilling life thus far. Success and happiness have overwhelmed my personal life; much more than any minor moments of grief. I never called on God and felt that he had forsaken me personally or any of my loved ones. My “wanting to hurt him” makes no sense. If I truly believed he existed but was upset with him, it would be foolish of me to think that I could actually hurt him. Such a God would be much more powerful than me, and quite immune to anything I did. My denial of him does not stem from my trying to hurt him, but from my honest conclusion that he cannot exist.

It was never my personal circumstance that caused me to reject God. Honestly, I gave the subject much objective thought throughout a significant time period of years before reaching my conclusions.

If you are referring to the existence of evil affecting my decision, then you are correct. However, it was not the personal experience of evil, and instead the knowledge of general evil in this world. It was the knowledge of the dying and starving children of Africa, wars in general, the genocide of WWII (as well as many others), the victims of natural disasters, the abused children at the hands of pedophiles, the newborns with severe anomalies, the children dying of cancer, etc etc etc.

So if by “something terrible happening to me” you mean the things I mentioned in the above paragraph, then you are correct. Something terrible did indeed happen to me._________________I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage

I'm glad you see my post as what it is. So many times I talk to anyone about religion and some athiest gets angry and offended and it turns into something uncomfortable. And you're right, these are my personal convictions. I don't expect everyone to share them.

I didn't mean to assume anything about you but in your first post you seemed so angry at the current state of things that I couldn't help but come to this conclusion. I'm very glad that you have had a happy life. But I have to disagree, God is not immune to what you do. I have heard many theologians say that "God is like a lover unto his bride" (humanity). You're right, He is all-powerful, but he has emotions too. What we do can upset him, make him sad, angry or happy. Sure, He could go on with His existance without us, but He would rather have us by his side. Just as any lover would. (I dont mean this in a carnal sense.) God was so angry at Sodam and Gamorrah that he was going to destroy both of the cities with fire and brimstone. But because Abraham begged God to spare the city if there were 10 righteous people left and because God loved Abraham He granted his request. We can change God's mind about things because he loves us enough to listen to us.

I understand what you mean by all the atrocities in the world. I won't put any sugar coating on it... it's horrible. I know God hates it too. Try as I might to not believe it... we are evil beings with selfish hearts. And that selfishness hurts other people. I have done many terrible things in my life because sometimes I am too weak to do the right thing. Its so easy to obey my selfishness...

But all in all I respect you for having the honesty and integrity to discuss your beliefs openly. I don't think people do this enough from day to day. If we don't test and retest our faith in God or no God then we are no better than animals.

The unquestioned life is not worth living.
-Socrates_________________You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan

The simple answer is that he wants to desperately but he knows that if he does, you will DIE. Moses saw him face to face and it almost killed him. but it didnt because he was pure enough in spirit that a small dose of his presence only irradiated his face. He loves you too much to kill you just so you can see him. And he doesn't send earthquakes and floods and the like to remind you that he is there. That is only a symptom of the cursed world we live in.

I've never heard that story.

Why would seeing God do that?

My personal, somewhat unislamic view is that God is the universe, and so we are seeing him whenever we look at things (even though i am a muslim).

Yes anusiya, I am a christian. I said that in the begining of my first post on this thread. I believe the reason seeing God does that to us is that we are too corrupted by our own sin to stand in the presence of God. He would literally burn us away in the fury of his holyness. Not that God intends that, but because of our own selfish choices, we have permanently seperated ourselves from God. And ever since that original sin we have been desperately trying to repair that rift. But unfortunately we don't have the power to build a bridge to God. So God, because he wants to be with us again, provided the way. That story is found in Exodus 34:29-35 Also in Exodus 33:20 God says "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." He also says that if anyone tries to come up Mt. Sinai, He will "Break out" against them. Later during the time when the temple had the ark of the covenant in it, there were many cases where a rat would go into the holiest of holies and get burned away by a beam of light from the ark. So as to warn the people not to go in there.

But I think you are right. God is the universe. There are many theologians that I have talked to in my quest for truth that believe that God did not make us out of nothing but that He actually made us out of himself. He did say that He made us "out of His own image." So it certainly seems plausible. That may also explain why when we sin He is so hurt by it, because it would be like a part of himself is dying. Like I said I am no expert on the subject but it seems very likely that this is the case.

Cyrizian_________________You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan

It is nice to have found a similarity that I don't have to argue it exists .

That is a sensible ideology about the burning ... a bit harsh though (lol). So i suppose you believe Jesus could see God though, because he wasn't corrupted?

Your idea on the sin makes a lot of sense. Thanx for enlightening me on that part. I always though it was more like how your mother gets annoyed when you do something wrong as opposed to part of God herself being slightly destroyed.

Yes I do believe Jesus was perfect. 1 man did something for only 3 years and died as a criminal for it. But to this day he is the most talked about read about and recognizable name on the planet. I have never heard of anyone that has done the same. I believe that when God sees us after we die we are not burned away because He sees us as Jesus, His perfect sacrificial lamb. Jesus' blood was spilled for us so that we may cover ourselves in it, and wash away all our evils and take Jesus' purity, and at the same time Jesus takes our sin upon himself to save us from our firey fate. No, Jesus never once sinned in his life. Even his own Mother and brothers, though they had known him since birth, believed he was the messiah. Y'shua (his real name) is my greatest hero. To willingly be tortured and murdered for every soul on earth... that is the greatest form of love I know. Whats even more is that Jesus was part of God himself, another form of himself as it were. Just as water is Ice, liquid and gas, God is the Father(the creator), the Son (the lamb, Jesus) and the spirit (our helper in times of need). So if you think about it Jesus is the most currupted person of all. A part of God took all the sins of the world upon himself and was killed as payment for all evil forevermore...

Jesus never once picked up a weapon, but he did more for the world than Mohammed ever did with his armies.
He treated women with the utmost respect, I dont even need to explain what Mohammed did.
He gave blind men sight, deaf men hearing, and the dead, life. Mohammed did the opposite.
Jesus willingly died for us, Mohammed killed for himself.
Jesus brought hope, Mohammed brought fear.

There is a fundemental difference between Islam and Christianity, yet Islam says that it is the final form of Judaism and Christianity. How can this be?_________________You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan

The fundamental difference ... we appear to be quoting two different versions of history here. I have been taught the opposite to you about mohammad. Most histories quoting what you have come from medieval european sources, who were jealous of the muslim advancements in science etc and who saw it, mostly thanx to the popes of that time, as something satanic. Why would something from the devil be so strong? Why is it that for every one Muslim who becomes a Christian, there are thousands of other people who become muslims? So they wrote these books and started these prejudices about us. I can see that they have affected every single one of you on this site.

But there is one thing about Christian Jesus i have never been able to understand - how is it at all just that Jesus dies to compensate for future sinners?

You say Jesus never picked up a weapon. That may have been true, but Christianity was spread just as much as conquest - Roman Empire, British, French, Portuguese, Spanish etc. And I know that they didn't show the same respect to their conquered peoples as the Muslims did. In fact, you will not find many religions that havent been spread through some sort of conquest.

I know i will recieve a silly unscientific answer here, but how on earth does a human revive someone from death?

How could Mohammed be the opposite? Even in the Koran you believe in, all my words ring true. If you want, I'll supply you with many quotes from the Koran to reiterate my point. The only history I quote is that which is taught in every school and college I know of. And they are not based on medieval sources. They are based on all sources available. Perhaps they might have been intrigued by what was in Turkey. But just because a pope says it (which I dont believe anything the pope says, IMO hes not even a christian) doesn't mean its true. But I would imagine that after seeing what they saw in the midle east, Europe decided to have a Renaisance. Obviously they didn't consider it to be of the devil.

Quote:

"Why is it that for every one Muslim who becomes a Christian, there are thousands of other people who become muslims?"

I actually had to read that over a few times to make sure that is actually what you meant. Where on earth did you get this? I assure you this is not the case.

What prejudices I have are not ignorant unquestioned prejudices. I have poured considerable time and thought into what I believe about Islam. I have read most if not all the Koran and I have a good understanding of what it is all about.

Jesus was God's perfect gift to the world. We could have just continued the Jewish tradition of attonement if we wanted to. But God knew that as teh world increased in size and knowledge, it would be impossible for all of us to go to Jerusalem and sacrifice. He also knew that in 30 years after Jesus' coming, the Romans would destroy the temple and banish the Jews from their land, so attonement would be impossible. So God provided another way. Jesus compensates for future sinners because He is God. By believing in Him we cast our sins on Him.

All these empires you speak of are (or were) Catholic. Both the Eastern Orthodox and Protestant Churches seperated themselves from the Catholics because of their blood thirsty conquests. Such things are contrary to christianity. The early christians spead rapidly throughout europe with no conquest whatsoever. They were badly persecuted for thier beliefs too by the Romans and Jews. And Christianity today spreads the same way, through sacrifice and showing the example of Christ.

Quote:

I know i will recieve a silly unscientific answer here, but how on earth does a human revive someone from death?

Jesus was far from human. In fact he was so otherworldly that many hated him just for that alone. If someone said, "I'm God." You wouldn't believe them. But not only did Jesus say this he had the goods to back it up. Thats why he caused such an uproar in the middle east. Only God has power over the living and the dead and Jesus was God. Jesus decided to back up his claims and bring a man that had been dead for 4 days back to life. Many had watched Jesus do his miracles for some time but still didn't believe him but after this act, their was no doubting it, He was the Messiah._________________You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan

There is no doubt about it-the crusades were evil. But though the Crusaders bore a cross on their chests, they were not christian. Most of them could not read, much less read the word. They had no knowledge whatsoever of what the Bible truely taught. they simply took the Pope's word for it. And the Popes were a rather greedy and selfinterested bunch. Most of them cared little for what was written in the word. Many of the crusaders were barbarians who would normally kill each other in petty wars among their own tribes but the so called Crusades gave them reason to go kill other people instead. Not just muslims but Jews and others were brutally murdered by the crusaders. No Christian would dare defend them in their atrocities. But strangely, so many muslims are quick to point out that "christians did that" in order to help defend their own religion.

Of course the arab version of the story is different! They were on different sides! I seriously doubt that allied and Nazi battle reports matched up after WWII.

It is true that some reports claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. But that was 20 years ago and most of the data was from birth explosions in the third world countries. In term of conversions per year the number is quite solidly in christianity's corner. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44033 here is a new book on the subject. Also there is a website that lists the current world leader in growth. http://www.fastestgrowingreligion.com/ It updates whever there is a change but hasnt had to since it started.

Quote:

Oh - thanks for the silly unscientific answer btw

Well we are talking about religion, ya know? But having said that, I believe that science always ends up proving the Bible to be true. I can't even begin to address all the advances in the last 20 or so years that have directly proven the bible to be true._________________You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan

There is no doubt about it-the crusades were evil. But though the Crusaders bore a cross on their chests, they were not christian. Most of them could not read, much less read the word. They had no knowledge whatsoever of what the Bible truely taught. they simply took the Pope's word for it. And the Popes were a rather greedy and selfinterested bunch. Most of them cared little for what was written in the word. Many of the crusaders were barbarians who would normally kill each other in petty wars among their own tribes but the so called Crusades gave them reason to go kill other people instead. Not just muslims but Jews and others were brutally murdered by the crusaders. No Christian would dare defend them in their atrocities. But strangely, so many muslims are quick to point out that "christians did that" in order to help defend their own religion.

Sound familiar?

Quote:

I believe that science always ends up proving the Bible to be true.

Not meaning to sound offensive or anything, but as yet Science hasnt proved that the entire unverse was created in 144 hours. (of course, that is taking it literally. My friend, who is a Baptists, has actually denounced the Big Bang and Evolution in favour of creationalism and to prove that it was a 7 day creation, he has a God which sits on a planet orbiting a sun, which of course limits him omnipotency (but enough mocking my friend lol) - I hope you are not one of them who believes such! (ok, this friend also believes that the crusades were a heroic act of bravery - why am I still friends with him? lol)

I suppose if you look at the Bible and read things metaphorically, then yes, there is science in it - "Let there be light" = Big bang for example.

I'm not sure about any other advances, but that is quite a good example. There is some science in the Quran as well. If you're interested you may like to read this:

Oh - and well done to you lot for expanding. I reckon its because innocent Muslims such as myself dont want to associate with the guys who are ruining it (no offense meant), but Christianity has its good points as well.

True it is similar to what you said about muslims but the crusades were not foundational to christianity. Mohammed IS foundational to Islam. And he did such despicable acts that I sometimes find it a wonder that his so called religion caught on at all. Mohammed approved of the bloodshed and he makes it MANDATORY of every true muslim. In contrast, Jesus would have been appalled at the crusades (I should say He WAS appalled).

Quote:

Not meaning to sound offensive or anything, but as yet Science hasnt proved that the entire unverse was created in 144 hours.

Actually, there are some who would argue differently. Check out this page to see for yourself. http://www.creationevidence.org/cemframes.html Now your probably wondering why all this information hasn't been released abroad, its because they are waiting till they have so much overwhelming evidence that the earth was created in 7 days, that no scientist on earth could deny it. ...And they are very close. Very soon the entire theory of evolution (thats all it ever was) is going to be thrown completely out the window.

No I dont believe like your friend believes.

And if you dont want to associate with guys that are ruining your religion, then STAND UP AND SHOW THEM THEY'RE WRONG!!! ...Before someone else gets killed. Dont expect change when you dont do anything! Dont you see that its on your shoulders to do something about this? If your not willing to do what is right then why do you have a religion at all?_________________You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan