Conservatives often complain that republicans back down, that they have no spine, that they wilt when faced with criticism of "but its for the children!" Will the fight over the S-CHIP expansion veto be a repeat?

Many media outlets and left wing blogs are crowing about all the supposed falsehoods contained in my original post.

Before you go running for the hills, tail between your legs, can we at least take a look at each and every point made in that post? You know, the one that "attacks a 12 year old boy".

I keep hearing how all my info was wrong, how it was all debunked as lies etc etc etc... but really there was only 1 major thing i was off on- the family paid a lower tuition amount at the exclusive Park school due to financial aid. This does not change the fact they are still paying for private school, just at a lower rate, while others are paying for their kids health care costs.

So that's what I was off on. Lets see what I got right:

"Graeme Frost, who gave the democrat rebuttal to George Bushs reasons for vetoing the SCHIP Bill, is a middle school student at the exclusive$20,000 per year Park School in Baltimore, MD.

100% true

---------------------------

"Graeme was in a severe car accident three years ago, and received care paid for by the government program known as SCHIP-(State Children's Health Insurance Program)"

100% true

---------------------------

"I was in a coma for a week and couldn't eat or stand up or even talk. My sister was even worse," Graeme wrote. "My parents work really hard and always make sure my sister and I have everything we need, but we can't afford private health insurance."

Direct quote from article

---------------------------

"His sister Gemma, also severely injured in the accident, attended the same school prior to the accident"

100% true and now we learn that all 4 attended private school. After the accident, Gemma began attending a new special needs school paid for by the state.

---------------------------

meaning the family was able to come up with nearly $40,000 per year for tuition for these 2 grade schoolers.

Dealt with above.

---------------------------

Confirmation both attended Park found here using edit-"find on this page"-Gemma. It will take you to an article in the schools newspaper about a fundraiser for Gemma class of 16, and Graeme class of 13.

In a Baltimore Sun article the family claims to be raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year."

100% true

---------------------------

"Bonnie Frost works for a medical publishing firm; her husband, Halsey, is a woodworker. They are raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. Neither gets health insurance through work."

Direct quote from article. Somewhat misleading to say he can't get it through work, when he's self employed.

---------------------------

"What the article does not mention is that Halsey Frost has owned his own company "Frostworks",since this marriage announcement in the NY Times in 1992

True, under the name Frostworks to 1999/2000 and then, after working as an architectural designer and manager of a small custom cabinet shop, under a new company name. The Baltimore Sun confirms he is presently self employed.

---------------------------

..."so he chooses to not give himself insurance. He also employed his wife as "bookkeeper and operations management" prior to her recent 2007 hire at the "medical publishing firm".

100% true

---------------------------

As her employer, he apparently denied her health insurance as well.

Unconfirmed, hence the "apparently". Its safe to say she would not have switched jobs away from one that offered health insurance to one that doesn't.

---------------------------

His company, Frostworks, is located at **** E BALTIMORE ST.

Which it was, and is still is according to Baltimore.com's business search for cabinet makers. Changing the name you use for your company does not change your business location.

---------------------------

"A building that was purchased for $160,000 in 1999."

100% true

---------------------------

"The buildings owner is listed as DIVERSIFIED INDUSTRIAL DESIGN CENTER, LLC whose mailing address is listed as *** S Collington Ave which is the Frost's home."

100% true

---------------------------

"The commercial property he owns is also listed as the business address for another company called Reillys Designs"

100% true

---------------------------

Which leads to the question of whether rental income is included in the above mentioned salary total.

100% true-The fact they receive rental income has been confirmed but the Baltimore Sun did not ask if it was included in their claimed 45-50k combined "income" (though they did ask for access to a tax return and the Frosts refused.)

---------------------------

"The current market value of their improved 3,040 SF home at *** S Collington Ave is unknown but *** S COLLINGTON AVE, also an end unit, sold for $485,000 this past March and it was only 2,060 SF.

100% true

This has also been a source of many claims of mistaken information. While other blogs or radio shows may have made the mistake of saying all homes in the area sell for 400-500k- or that the Frosts paid 485k for their home, my information was correct. I compared the home to a recently sold SMALLER home only a few doors down that was also an end unit. Citing tax assessments of 260k (which are always lower than market value) is disingenuous. A fellow freeper early in the thread posted a zillow estimate of approximately 350k and Michelle Malkin's infamous "stalking tour" led her to say that estimates of 500k were too high. So much for the idea that the blogger mob were not interested in getting their facts straight. I'm sure all the media trucks Time magazine says are parked near the home will also be called stalkers-right?

---------------------------

"A photo taken in the family's kitchen shows what appears to be a recent remodeling job"

100% true. The home remodeling has been confirmed by the Frosts in the Sun article.

---------------------------

with granite counter tops

FALSE-The kitchen had concrete counters rather than granite. The left is really milking this one and its mention in this AP article was the only example they used from my entire post. This is such a silly point and was simply an observation about the photo the Sun used to show the family... but since even USA Today is making a big deal out of it, sigh, lets take a look:

"Concrete countertops are a custom crafted material for high end use and are often specified by designers or architects.

Consumers, in some cases think of concrete as being a cheaper alternative to other available countertop surfaces. Concrete countertops should be sold (or bought) based on being a beautiful, custom, handmade, relatively unique product. Customers going in thinking the countertops will be low budget items will quickly find out otherwise.

So the funny thing is, according to these links, concrete counters are actually MORE expensive than granite so I don't quite get the left's glee on that one.

I'm sure Olberman will have something to say like "Just when you think this story could not get any lower, we are now reduced to arguing cost differences of granite vs concrete countertops". Yep, it is silly. Maybe the AP and USA Today should stop harping on it and instead focus on whether families of higher means than than the Frosts really need tax payer financed health care.

---------------------------

and glass front cabinets

100% true

---------------------------

One has to wonder that if time and money can be found to remodel a home

100% true

---------------------------

send kids to exclusive private schools,

100% true

---------------------------

purchase commercial property

100% true

---------------------------

and run your own business

100% true

---------------------------

maybe money can be found for other things...

My opinion.

---------------------------

maybe Dad should drop his woodworking hobby and get a real job that offers health insurance rather than making people like me (also with 4 kids in a 600sf smaller house and tuition $16,000 less per kid and no commercial property ownership) pay for it in my taxes.

My opinion. On second look, a bit snippy but the central point is true. There have to be jobs out there with healthplans for someone with:

I know we all would like to be our own boss but sometimes you just have to settle for a good job with health insurance.

--------------------------

Not being a reporter and doing this all in about 3 hours using Google can bring me all the criticism in the world, but to say my info is all lies or has been disproved is not correct. As is the assertion that I somehow "attacked" a 12 year old.

BTW, I hope the Sun spent a little more than 3 hours researching their story.

"I am incredibly thankful," said Frost, who works full time for a medical publishing firm. Baltimore Sun September 27

vs

"...while Bonnie works part time for a medical publishing firm." Baltimore Sun October 11, 2007

The biggest thing for me for whatever project I do, whether woodworking or home repair/ improvement, or whatever, is personal pride and satisfaction. Its nots the ONLY factor, but it is the largest.

Hard Working ManBrooks and Dunn

I'm a hard workin' man I wear a steel hard hat I can ride, rope, hammer, and paint Do things with my hands that most men can't I can't get ahead no matter how hard I try I'm gettin' really good at barely gettin' by

Got everything I own By the sweat of my brow From my four-wheel drive to my cowboy boots I owe it all to my blue collar roots I feel like I'm workin' overtime on a runaway train I've got to bust loose from this ball and chain

I'm a hard, hard workin' man I got it all on the line For a piece of the promised land I'm burnin' my candle at both ends 'Bout the only way to keep the fire goin' Is to outrun the wind

Come Friday night I like to party hard I carry on with the Cadillac cuties Spend my whole week's pay on some weekend buety Come Monday mornin' I'm the first to arrive I ain't nothin' but business from nine till five

Chorus

I can't wait to get up in the mornin' And do it all over again Well I'm a hard livin', hard workin' man

And women too

101
posted on 10/11/2007 7:32:38 PM PDT
by mountn man
(The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)

Someone please explain to me the importance of the accident details. What are you trying to show?

There was/wasn't black ice, so then what? Husband/wife was diving the vehicle so then what? Car/SUV so then what? In/out of 4WD, so then what? Another car/tree, side/front impact, airbags/side curtains... so then what? Sat/school so then what?

Answer these questions anyway you like and what does it prove? Why is it relevant to the story of dem poster-family freeloaders supporting their lifestlye on the taxpayer dime?

You’ve done some good work here my FRee State friend. These ninnies are simply attacking you because you’re altering their reality of facts.

My wife and I are independent business owners here in Maryland. We get dragged over the coals by our health insurance providers; paying about 12k a year for our family, then paying a pretty big hit on the deductibles each year, as well. It’s a pretty big chunk of our budget. I’d like to find a better plan, but I wouldn’t leave my family without some kind of provision for this. Forget “assailing” the kid how come the parents aren’t being taken to task for NOT insuring their family. It seems irresponsible to me.

We also send our children to a private school to the tune of 10k, I wouldn’t dare to leave my children in the public schools in our district. This is another big piece of the family budget, but it’s something that we value. If we could not afford it - and we are not wealthy by any means - we would have to homeschool.

This is what we choose to do. I don’t ask other individuals to pick up the tab for my kid and I don’t want to get stuck with the bill for your kid either. Nothing personal.

The folks that are attacking your post ought to do the “grown up” thing and take care of their own families. The Frosts should be taken to task for being so irresponsible, using their kid to shamelessly promote their political agenda, then defending that which is morally wrong once they are called on it. The father isn’t even man enough to take care of his own kids. He wants you and I to do it.

Wow! Being criticized for that has really got to hurt. Maybe not for a lib?

Thanks for your hard work. If you’re being attacked for your observations of the facts, take heart, you’re being attacked by all the right people; the liberal jackasses of the world.

"mother was driving Yeah. I think youre right. I read an awful lotta stuff since yesterday, and dont remember for sure. Id like to see the accident report regarding black ice."

I don't think you should question the black ice. That might cause Jesse Jackson to call you racist.

Seriously, the parameters around the accident shouldn't be an issue. Regardless of fault, the kids' conditions exist and they clearly need medical help. I think the only issue here is whether they have the financial means and moral obligation to pay for their own insurance, or if the rest of us should have to pay his insurance. The accident, regardless of the specifics, had tragic consequences that his parents should have been addressing beforehand.

Whatever the government gives you, the government can take away from you. They have been bought and paid for by the liberals. The liberals own them now... their votes, their opinions, their support. And the father thinks he is his own boss in his business. He has more bosses running his entire life than I do.

108
posted on 10/12/2007 3:53:37 AM PDT
by TN4Liberty
(A liberal is someone who believes Scooter Libby should be in jail and Bill Clinton should not.)

I nominate Karen T. of Slime Magazine as the scumbag "reporter" of the year so far.

The competition is tough, though.

You have set a match under the media scam artists and their hysterical screams can be heard from sea to shining sea.

You might want to take a look at some of the "logical fallacy" web sites. They list a whole series of false arguments that are commonly used in the major media--the ad hominem attack, argument by authority, false premise, etc etc etc.

But when the lefties go totally nuts they fall back on Hillary's favorite technique--the naked threat.

Didn't your mother ever teach you that farting in public is rude? ----------- An individual still has to buy relatively expensive equipment. 1-2 cabinet saws at $2000+, 1-2 bandsaws at $2000+, drumsander, drill press, shaper or routers, air filter, dust collector, and other machines and tools and accessories. It would cost $10,000 just for the hobbyist/small business man to get started for equipment, and that number would easily double or triple for that hobbyist/ small business man to really get serious.

Did your mother ever theach you to read the article before posting. The guy is a custom carpenter already and owns his own custom carpentry business. One would have to assume that he already has all the shop tools and the skill to make his own cabinets. I have friends who have done the same and have made better cabinets for a small fraction of the cost of the press board crap you find in those big box stores.

I have what most would consider a pretty good shop setup. I know what it costs to build oak or maple cabinetry, or tables and chairs. To save $1000 on what would have been $5000 means I have an extra $1000 for something else, but I ain't building cabinets at a small fraction of the price.

Just for reference sake, good cabinet grade plywood costs about $45 up to $90 for the really good stuff. 4 sides can be gotten out of one sheet. Now you have the face and door back bottom and top, and maybe a drawer. Plus hardware.

If you have friends who built their cabinets for a small fraction than what can be purchased at Lowes, then they used crap wood and hardware. Otherwise they're blowing smoke at you.

112
posted on 10/12/2007 6:01:13 AM PDT
by mountn man
(The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)

I didn't assume that he had to go out and by any equipment. If he had all the equipment he needed, so that he didn't have to buy any, he'd still have to spend money on material. The point I'm trying to make is that for the cost of material alone, one is not going to build comparable or better cabinets at a small fraction of the cost that they can be bought for.

The point I was trying to make earlier about tools, is that the cabinet making firms have large automated machines, that can do large quantities at very fast rates, driving production costs down. Meaning that cabinets can get cheaper and cheaper to produce, and cheaper to sell.

Their material costs are already below 50% of what a small time operator can get.

All this means that a producer can market their product for about the same or a little more than an individual can actually buy the material itself for.

The only time an individual can build cabinets for 1/10 the cost of bought cabinets, which you claimed earlier can be done, is when building your own cabinets versus higher end custom made cabinets. At this point the cost isn't in the material as much as its in the workmanship. When your at this level of cabinetry, Billyjo Bob working out of his garage better be alot more skilled than nailing studs together and measuring in 1/16's of an inch and calling it good, and then claiming that his cabinets are just as good or better than crap that can be bought.

115
posted on 10/12/2007 1:28:06 PM PDT
by mountn man
(The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)

Lowes doesn't build their own cabinets. At least that I know of. Your buying stuff like Merrilat, Schrock, and Kraft Made. And no they aren't buying the "best" material. Depending on the grade of cabinet can depend on the grade of materials used.

But since these manufacturers are producing items in such "HUGE" quantities, they buy their materials considerably less, than what a small time hobbyist could buy them at, for the same quality.

In order for the individual to cut costs to save that much, there is only one place to cut costs, and thats with the material you buy, and its quality.

117
posted on 10/12/2007 1:35:46 PM PDT
by mountn man
(The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)

The only time an individual can build cabinets for 1/10 the cost of bought cabinets, which you claimed earlier can be done, is when building your own cabinets versus higher end custom made cabinets.

Well thank you for catching up with me. I, and I think it's fair to say the original poster of this thread were operating under the assumption that they are a custom job that he guessed must have cost a bundle. I pointed out that it's also safe to assume the guy not only has the equipment necessary but after years in the business, also has the skill required to build custom cabinets. Beyond that, if custom carpentry is his business, I find it unlikly he would even want off-the-shelf stuff for his own home when he could do custom for the same or less.

My only point was that it's entirely possible that they did not spend a bundle of money on the kitchen as the originater of the thread implied and I advised that he should avoid that line of reasoning. Then, out of the blue, someone accused me of farting in the forum.

It's not something most women would like, given that it is cold and makes a very unpleasant noise when something is placed on it. And if my stainless sink is any example, it's not that easy to polish out scratches, either, which would not happen all over the counter evenly, but only in high-use spots.

I installed high-end stainless steel cabinets in my former home and was disappointed at the endless problems with water spots, rusted joints around the doors, and overall coldness, both in winter, when they retained cold, in the sounds they emitted, and in "feeling."

Isnt it odd that the GPs gave to a day care center, enough to get named after themselves and, what, none to their grandkids?

In defense of the grandparents, the child care center they funded appears to be a memorial to their daughter. The wording of the web page is strange: it says "a living memorial", so it isn't 100% clear whether that means the daughter is still alive, but I take it to mean that it is a place for living children in memory of a deceased daughter.

When you figure what the average grandparents of means spend on their daughter and her children, the idea that they would instead give these funds to this church, which already has the real estate available, to supplement the tuitions at this nursery school does not offend me. I think it's a generous and useful way to remember their daugher.

Especially if they are also helping their son with their other grandchildren's tuitions, I just don't see why the grandparents should be targeted here, so much as their son, who has planned poorly for his family and now that his children have special needs, feels entitled to lash out at the president over not getting even more aid than has already been generously supplied by so many other sources.

My only point was that it's entirely possible that they did not spend a bundle of money on the kitchen as the originater of the thread implied and I advised that he should avoid that line of reasoning. Then, out of the blue, someone accused me of farting in the forum.

I understood your point about the cabinetry and had the same thought: the guy probably built them himself and already had the equipment. He may even have had some scrap materials.

As for farting in the forum, the Viking kitty did that. Eww  fish kibble!

Its safe to say she would not have switched jobs away from one that offered health insurance to one that doesn't.

If she did then it would be her choice and a clear reflection of their priorities. The facts revealed to date clearly show ample opportunities and resources to secure health insurance for the entire family. It just isn't a priority to them and why would it be when they can get some other sucker to pay for it?

Great job, icwhatudo! Clear, concise, well researched and well formatted. Simply centuries ahead of present day journalism.

The Democrats have held up a no-need case that did get welfare, as somehow heart wrenching, to argue for increased welfare. That's the story.

In my previously life as a chef I would say yes. Commercial kitchens are virtually 100% SS. Cleaning is very easy. Infact you don't need any fancy cleaner, regardless of what SS appliance makers say. Plain old water with clorox in it is all you need.

Now, there are some disadvantages unless they are purpose built. Just a straight sheet of stainless won't work. Cutting boards slide all over. What you have done is get cutting boards made to how you want them for where you want them and have SS 'pegs' welded to the countertop and holes drilled in the cutting boards to match them. They won't go anywhere.

Plus, if you really want to have fun, do from the countertops down stainless, get a tile floor, and have a couple drains put in the floor. Then you can clean the kitchen with a hose!

131
posted on 10/12/2007 4:26:46 PM PDT
by Phantom Lord
(Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)

There's a point when one needs be honest with oneself by wondering if we're really doing something to save money--or if we're just using that as an excuse to play hooky from more important responsibilities.

It's all about what your time is worth. If you spend 200 hours in the shop building cabinets for yourself instead of a paying customer it means you want a new kitchen more than health insurance for your family. The profit from one typical kitchen job would be about enough for one year's insurance. The Frosts decided that comfort/status was worth more to them than security/health.

I am foursquare behind the liberty to make that choice. Just don't whine that others are unwilling to pay for the things you don't care that much about.

I agree with you that the attention to the accident is mostly irrelevant to this story. It only ties in in one way that I can see. From the description of the accident and injuries it seems quite likely that the kids weren't in child safety seats. I don't know what Maryland law is but child safety seats are pretty universal and easily available these days. No one has not heard of them.

What is the relevance of that? That, in combination with their choice not to have health insurance, shows how low the health and welfare of their children is on their priority list.

That may sound like a cold indictment but asking the taxpayers to feel sorry for them and then hand over their money is even colder. Were they waiting for a government program to buy them child seats?

Stainless steel is great, and if you get it with a lip, you can put wood inserts in it. Wood is porous, so you have to clean it well, but it’s easy to clean, sand down to a new surface, or replace, and you can afford some striking grain if you’re only going to use it for a few square feet. Make sure you use an edible oil to seal the wood, and clean the joints and steel underneath regularly. If you really like to cook, a lot of the new surfaces can’t take the heat, scratches or stains of active chefs.

143
posted on 10/13/2007 2:28:30 PM PDT
by VanShuyten
("Of course, a fool, what with sheer fright and fine sentiments, is always safe.")

In my previously life as a chef I would say yes. Commercial kitchens are virtually 100% SS. Cleaning is very easy. Infact you don't need any fancy cleaner, regardless of what SS appliance makers say. Plain old water with clorox in it is all you need.

Reminds me, I remember hearing that boiling water is good for cleaning off any fingerprints--not that I expect prints to be a problem (the few cabinets I have will have handles, which handles I suspect will not show fingerprints if the handles have no flat surfaces).

Now, there are some disadvantages unless they are purpose built. Just a straight sheet of stainless won't work. Cutting boards slide all over. What you have done is get cutting boards made to how you want them for where you want them and have SS 'pegs' welded to the countertop and holes drilled in the cutting boards to match them. They won't go anywhere.

The pegs would get in the way of wiping down the countertop, which would be a minor nusiance, but not tha bad. Maybe I could figure something better out, if not, then the pegs are a great idea; thanks for the tip.

Plus, if you really want to have fun, do from the countertops down stainless, get a tile floor, and have a couple drains put in the floor. Then you can clean the kitchen with a hose!

Oh--no cabinest under the counters for me.

And NO tile on the floor--I despise tile, not so much for the tile, but for the grout and seams between the tiles, which is miserable stuff.

I was thinking of sheet linoleum or vinyl in one big piece (I will instruct the architect to make the floor as square as possible, with no fancy moldings along the baseboard and door openings, to make cutting the sheet to fit easier.

Having no cabinets under the counters makes maintenence easier (especially of the plumbing, which I plan to be visible), and when something spills, little chance it might get under the cabinets where it can't be got at.

As for a drain in the floor and hosing everything down--that would be wonderful.

ACtually, it would be great if I could go at my bathrooms with a steam cleaner.

(believe it or not, except for ultilitarian rooms like baths and kitchens, the house I intend to build will be a repro of an 18th century design).

My stainless cabinets rusted at the inner corners of the door openings where some other soldering compound had been used to seal the joints. The water spots were probably due to the smooth surface, whereas some people order the matte surface. Any steel surface will show scratches.

You seem to have your heart set on them, so just discount everything I’ve said about water spots and an unpleasant sound and the other poster said about fingerprints, because what do we know?

My general understanding about the current tax code is that if you receive, income, revenue, or money from whatever source, there is a very strong potential that with a few exceptions, that money is subject to taxation. It could be taxed as income, taxed as a gift if it meets the criteria, or taxed under an array other taxable attachments that are built into the current tax code. If you are really playing it straight under the code, and someone “gives you money” or pays bills for you, like grandparents paying for children’s tuition for private schools, etc... without the anticipation of being repaid, I think you might have to call that income, at worst, a gift at best.... I believe that you have a taxable event, especially if its a large amount of money provided to you over an extended period of time...

So, with that said, we need a good CPA to inform us as to how the amount of money being paid by anyone, for which the Frosts experience benefit for example in tuition offset or payment on behalf of the Frosts, is handled under the tax code...

After all, if they are receiving tens of thousands of dollars each year in tuition assistance from let’s say grandparents, is that money received each year required to be(1) included in their tax filings as additional income, (2) added to their income considered in their qualification requirements under the program?

Look I don’t want any ill will to come to these nice people, all I want is the truth to prevail in this process. If they are cutting corners anywhere, especially since they have chosen voluntarily to enter the public discourse using “their situation" to make a statement about policy that effects all of us, they are not exempt from being held accountable if it is found they should be...

Is there a CPA that can answer these questions for us?

149
posted on 10/13/2007 4:45:11 PM PDT
by SterlingSilver
(If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... its a duck!)

Concrete countertops ARE a DIY project, for someone willing to take the time. We’d considered doing them in our home here in MA, but since we’ve decided to sell next year, and move South, we’re going with quartz. Apparently concrete countertops are not as acceptable in the average Colonial here in the Northeast. But they can be done; I attended a seminar and demonstration given by Fu Tung Cheng at a Builder’s Trade Show in Worcester a few years ago. It’s not rocket science, and with some time and effort, a nice product can result, at MUCH less than $100/sq. ft.

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