They must exist, just don't know where. In how many instances were robbery or assault prevented, etc. I has having this discussion with someone who was throwing out numbers that there are way more murder, suicide, accidental shooting than helpfulness. I didn't have answers here. And the newspapers have something all the time about someone killing a family member (most recent is the case in upstate NY this past weekend). There is not much on , 'local citizen prevents.....'

Pls point me in the right direction so the next time I don't just look like a fool with my mouth open and nothing intelligent coming out when this issue comes up.

September 12th, 2011, 02:15 PM

DaveWorkman

Boat, I'm not sure they DO exist because most police agencies do not specifically list whether someone had a CCW / CPL when they file a report or a charge.
Most of the information you will probably find on both sides of the argument is typically anecdotal.

The problem is that a large number are presumed to have been prevented but never reported...so lots of numbers are never there. If you want to be able to argue numbers (and in many cased see where the magic numbers that many Gun Control organizations come up with...such as expanding the definition of 'children'), check out Gun Facts - Gun Control | Facts | Debunk | Myths for a decent resource with cited sources (something you typically DON'T see in a lot of fluffy anti-gun arguments).

September 12th, 2011, 03:49 PM

Maybejim

Take a look at John Lott's books. It's not just a matter of immediate use of a gun preventing crime but the fact that the BG knows a significant portion of the populous may be carrying. Confrontational crime goes down when a state changes to "shall issue" concealed carry.

September 12th, 2011, 06:10 PM

archer51

NRA's Armed Citizen will give you the most specific facts your going to find. The "main stream" press doesn't want to post the good things that happen with a gun. It suits their purpose better to demonize guns.

September 12th, 2011, 10:04 PM

woodsong

Like others have said, the NRA does a good job of assembling these statistics and stories. National news never covers it; local does, but it's hard to find all those stories.

I believe the NRA figures show that 2.5 million assaults/robberies are thwarted yearly by armed citizens.

September 13th, 2011, 12:23 AM

Maybejim

Actually the 2.5 million number comes from a study in the 90's by Gary Kleck PhD. Here is a link to a discussion of it. Kleck Interview

September 13th, 2011, 12:28 AM

geohans

More Guns: Less Crime

Author, John Lott

Publisher, Chicago University Press???

He updates his stuff periodically in articles. Basically, anything he wrote is good.

September 13th, 2011, 01:39 AM

Pistology

Yes. It is "The University of Chicago Press" that is publisher of the Lott book. Good reviews but not a fun read.

Not sure why you feel that you owe this to someone who is "just throwing out numbers". I think the focus should first be on the quality of "someone's" numbers. If more guns cause more crime per capita, then "someone" has the lesser burden of proof. But the aggregate proof of this doesn't exist or you would see the proof in bold from the Brady Bunch to the Supreme Court cases.

An MD on this forum, DoctorBob, posts a thread referring to a CDC article that, "does suggest that further restrictions on legitimate gun owners are not useful." There is a link to the report.
It cites some of the highest rates of firearms deaths occur in the most legally restrictive cities.

To echo two good points already made:
1) The press sensationalizes gun violence because it's easy and profitable and, IMO, causes a lot of anti-gun bias.
2) There are immeasurable positive externalities of gun ownership. For example, Kennesaw, GA, enacted mandatory possession of firearms ("reverse gun control"), and crime went down. Criminals prey on sheep and avoid the heat and liklihood of armed resistance.

September 13th, 2011, 07:06 AM

SFury

A lot of the figures I've seen over the years has to do with crime rates, and what happens when CC was enacted and the change in crime rates for the immediate 2-3 years later. In almost 100% of the cases, crime went down, and as long as the reports came in of people stopping crime keep being reported the crime rate stays down.

There was one case I read about in the the NRA publication back in the 90s that did have one city where crime went up, but there were some very odd circumstances that led to the crime increase at the same time the CC law took effect. I wish I had kept that article. It was an interesting read.

September 13th, 2011, 11:47 PM

sdprof

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman

They must exist, just don't know where. In how many instances were robbery or assault prevented, etc. I has having this discussion with someone who was throwing out numbers that there are way more murder, suicide, accidental shooting than helpfulness. I didn't have answers here. And the newspapers have something all the time about someone killing a family member (most recent is the case in upstate NY this past weekend). There is not much on , 'local citizen prevents.....'

Pls point me in the right direction so the next time I don't just look like a fool with my mouth open and nothing intelligent coming out when this issue comes up.

Also keep in mind that 87.3% of people quoting statistics are making them up.

September 14th, 2011, 12:04 AM

chiefjason

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdprof

Also keep in mind that 87.3% of people quoting statistics are making them up.

I thought 97.3% of statistics were made up on the spot. Man am I confused. :rolleyes:

Lott and Kleck are good places to start. The NRA number of 2.5 million defensive uses of firearms is from Kleck. IIRC, Lott puts it around 1.5 million, maybe a touch less.

So ask them if they are willing to add 2.5 million more victims to the crime register by disarming law abiding citizens. It would be fun to watch that rattle around in their head. :smile:

September 14th, 2011, 09:56 AM

oakchas

You can find "Studies" on both sides of this issue... These "studies" will back up whoever was the force behind compiling them... Both sides say the other's numbers are bad.

The National Academy of Sciences has studied both side's arguments and found them all to be lacking, except for one thing, apparently... Shall issue laws drive down the murder rate...