00:00:03 What does it mean to implement Scheme?
00:00:14 arcfide: sorry..you are right
00:00:17 my bad
00:00:48 arcfide: what I meant was I wanted to implement Scheme primitive functions all as LC functions
00:00:49 Writing a Scheme evaluator in LC is no different than writing it in any other language except that you have a VERY different language in which to do it.
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00:01:16 e.g. quote = some lambda function...
00:01:20 eq = some lambda function
00:01:24 seb-: You have to extend LC for that, because LC doesn't understand even numbers, which many Scheme primitives take.
00:01:41 yea
00:01:43 Which means that you have to have a way of encoding all of the Scheme datatypes.
00:02:01 arcfide: you were right way back...Scheme is a *SUPERSET* of LC
00:02:20 LC is the *subset* and hence weaker
00:02:27 Not a superset in the sense of what it can compute, so it isn't weaker.
00:02:40 But it is a superset in the sense of what convenience features it provides.
00:02:41 arcfide: in the sense of the syntax (syntactic sugar)
00:02:45 arcfide: right
00:05:59 welp..thanks for the help
00:06:04 have a good weekend
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00:33:30 Elly: It's not difficult to compile plt without the X stuff, just do it from source.
00:33:48 eli: I have no desire to track packages by hand
00:34:14 Elly: There are almost no packages, and if you're working on such a constrained system, then you better get used to the idea.
00:34:40 I mean -- there are almost no packages if you don't build the X stuff.
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00:35:22 Once you're done with `make', you can also use `make plain-install' to install the binaries without running a setup,
00:35:47 and then you can use `mzscheme -l- setup -D' to do the byte-compilation without compiling the docs.
00:36:11 (And I did compile it once on an Arm machine, there were no problems that I remember.)
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00:50:39 the formfactor of that plug is nice for "appliance" products
00:51:05 for one-off hacking, an old laptop is pretty attractive for much the same purposes
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00:52:43 especially if you're hanging an external drive off the plug's usb. then you have two boxes, similar to a laptop and its wallwart
00:53:03 Elly: Late hit here, but I think Gauche is a good option.
00:57:54 chandler: oh? others seem to disagree :P
00:58:02 Gauche?
00:58:22 I saw some discussion of Guile, but nobody mentioned Gauche that I saw.
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01:08:09 neilv: That looks like a good summary. Specifically, beyond the initial "cool gadget" factor, I don't see much advantage to using it over using an old laptop.
01:09:35 if/when it comes down to $50, it would be better than an old laptop for things like a network print server
01:10:51 Yeah, maybe. It's a tough competition, when you're competing over leftover laptops.
01:11:34 IOW, I *have* about 2-3 old laptops that can work, and they're all around the same specs or better; so the price needs to be at a range that will convince me to buy a new box instead.
01:12:22 An old laptop may use more power than this device, and because it's old there's an uncertain risk of failure.
01:12:36 On the plus side, it doesn't hurt to have a built in UPS.
01:12:41 20:08:12 up 845 days, 12:04, 1 user, load average: 0.07, 0.68, 0.48
01:12:55 That's my "old laptop" home server, a PowerBook G4 running Linux.
01:13:37 the built-in ups (if battery is still good at all) is nice
01:14:06 I don't need it to last long usually; the biggest risk is actually accidental disconnection.
01:14:25 I think a few times it's run down to the point where it put itself to sleep during a power outage, but never ran out of reserve after that.
01:14:37 yeah. and, in some areas, brownouts or brief outages
01:14:46 The G4 PowerBooks had impressively long battery life when new, as well as superbly well done power management.
01:15:13 I'm not sure about the power issue even -- laptops should be very power-friendly with turning off an idle disk and the screen etc.
01:15:14 i used one as a web server "farm" for a while. http://www.neilvandyke.org/weblog/2007/08/#2007-08-20
01:15:15 Keeping a lithium-ion battery at full charge also preserves its life more than letting it sit.
01:15:43 chandler: I thought that would kill it.
01:15:52 Apparently not from what I've read.
01:16:15 Self-discharge is bad; keeping it on the charger with a smart charge management system (e.g. not constantly applying power to the battery) is good.
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01:16:30 I always make sure to 1) let my battery run down as far as possible before pluggin in, and 2) unplug once the battery is full.
01:16:44 eli: Even then, I doubt any old laptop compares to a fully static ARM core with low power memory.
01:16:54 I left my old laptop plugged in all the time, and the battery died very quickly.
01:17:15 I believe that's outdated advice. Nowadays, number of cyles is the important measure.
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01:17:27 This might only apply to lithium-polymer batteries. I'm not sure.
01:18:28 Yeah, LiPo would be different.
01:18:30 timmc: anecdotally, same here with li-ion batteries on thinkpad T series models
01:18:35 It's certainly more flammable.
01:18:52 *TimMc* wants a LiPo to short-circuit
01:19:33 That's what I always thought too, but a good friend of mine who is working on a product with a built-in li-po battery mentioned that the current advice is to reduce the number of cycles on the battery.
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01:20:14 http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
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01:20:26 "A lithium-ion battery provides 300-500 discharge/charge cycles. The battery prefers a partial rather than a full discharge. Frequent full discharges should be avoided when possible. Instead, charge the battery more often or use a larger battery"
01:20:59 Curious.
01:21:11 I wonder how much this varies between manufacturers, though.
01:21:57 All I was able to understand from the conversation I had is that this is an enormously complex matter.
01:22:09 This is also why charge indicators are so inaccurate.
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02:03:38 Ever see an RC airplane totally run down a lipo and catch fire and burn to the ground? It ain't pretty.
02:04:13 *offby1* stares blankly
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02:09:02 *jcowan* unvanishes, carefully looking around for that confounded whats-his-name.
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02:14:09 oh relax
02:15:33 I *am* relaxed. After all, He Who Must Not Be Named is nowhere in sigh--
02:15:36 Gulp.
02:16:19 Oh, well, what the hell, doodly doodly doodly doodly ...
02:17:00 The which reminds me of my very favorite (as of now) knock-knock joke.
02:17:04 Knock knock!
02:19:01 ... Who's there?
02:20:37 You know.
02:20:56 You know who?
02:21:01 Yes! *Avada Kedavra*!
02:21:20 Expelliarmus!
02:21:25 (I had to look up how to spell that.)
02:22:23 I suspect the 'r' is not pronounced
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02:39:46 hmm
02:40:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeYOdgwByLc
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04:29:40 dammit I bet half my rant was lost. will type up an example instead
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05:03:13 synx pasted "a mess" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84546
05:04:21 I could define those procedures to use expensive-operation every time, obviously a bad idea. But how to get it so you can call those procedures, but only within the context of with-stuff?
05:05:25 I mean the above works great, until I want to add on another procedure. o.O
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06:36:53 hello
06:37:26 is there a scheme implementation with good code generation (standalone executables) and a good CLOS-like oop library?
06:38:10 Chicken 3 has the good code generation, except for floating point, and it has TinyCLOS. I think we are very close to releasing TinyCLOS for Chicken 4 as well.
06:38:40 ok thanks
06:38:51 how close is "very close"? :)
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06:43:41 Chicken 4 has tinyclos as far as I know o.O
06:43:49 According to the list, there's an error reported by the examples whose cause is not known, but if you don't step on that bug you're all right.
06:44:00 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2009-07/msg00047.html
06:44:39 thanks
06:46:38 plt-scheme has its own object system. Quite a bit different from CLOS, more in the style of java really.
06:48:00 But no native compilation.
06:48:26 If you want native, your choices are pretty much Chicken, Gauche, Bigloo, or (Ghu help you) Stalin.
06:50:02 jcowan is wrong, of course.
06:50:36 PLT has native code generation via a C compiler, but that's hardly used because byte-compiled code is jitted at runtime to machine code.
06:50:56 I knew about the JIT, but not about the C compiler.
06:51:30 The C compiler has existed for much longer than the jit; at least a decade.
06:51:53 In addition, PLT has Swindle, which is a much-extended version of tiny clos,
06:52:25 and finally, the preffered PLT object system is "in the style of java" at a *very* superficial level.
06:52:55 i'm trying to install chicken scheme under ubuntu 9 and i get a conflict with mono-devel
06:53:06 Yeah, they both use "csc" for different things
06:53:22 chicken scheme compiler vs. c sharp compiler
06:53:45 right, i'll install that one
06:54:08 btw, where is the bootstrap compiler? because i cannot find the sources and a get an error during bootstrap
06:54:34 "make PLATFORM=linux bootstrap" (or whatever)
06:54:44 right but bootstrap compiler is not present
06:54:49 then make PLATFORM=linux CHICKEN=./chicken-boot
06:55:58 i don't have any ./chicken-boot
06:56:22 You did the make bootstrap first?
06:56:55 no
06:57:02 because i don't know where to get it
06:57:06 that was my question :)
06:57:13 it's not on the download page
06:57:33 Ah. "svn co https://galinha.ucpel.tche.br/svn/chicken-eggs/chicken/trunk"
06:57:42 that gets you the current HEAD
06:57:44 is it safe to use the svn version?
06:57:49 IMHO it's always best
06:57:50 i use the 4.0.0
06:57:56 ok, i'll use that one then
06:58:00 thanks
06:58:12 The tarballs don't contain bootstrap code
06:58:19 I never use them
06:58:49 i see
06:58:54 i can't use svn there
06:59:00 some authetification problem
06:59:12 ah, anonymous
06:59:29 empty password
06:59:48 but it asks me for my user's password
06:59:58 The password for "anonymous" is ""
07:00:10 yes but it asks for my user's password
07:00:18 my own linux user
07:00:39 i need to somehow tell svn to use anonymous user
07:01:42 svn co --username anonymous https://galinha.ucpel.tche.br/svn/chicken-eggs/chicken/trunk
07:02:19 thanks
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07:05:23 I should mention Petit Larceny and Ikarus now, too
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07:09:43 are they mature implementations? something that can be used for production code?
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07:10:55 Ikarus, not so much.
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07:10:59 I can't speak to Larceny
07:11:43 i intend to use scheme+clos-like oop for a hobby game
07:11:47 is this a wise decision?
07:11:52 mostly game ai
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07:13:18 Worth a try.
07:13:42 Gauche is somewhat faster than Chicken but has fewer library facilities;
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07:13:57 on the other hand, many of Chicken 3's eggs haven't been ported;
07:14:04 on the gripping hand, they're not hard to port, either.
07:14:29 i thought gauche is an interpreter, doesn't that make is slower?
07:14:51 Sorry, s/Gauche/Gambit
07:15:09 ah
07:15:12 But modern interpreters can be very fast, especially ones that have JITs
07:15:40 Gambit is also, IIRC, better at floating-point; Chicken doesn't optimize that at all.
07:15:44 hmm
07:15:50 i might have to take a look at that then
07:15:57 Stalin produces insanely fast executables, but takes literally all day to compile
07:16:20 You don't use it for development, only for final deployment.
07:16:52 is it compatible with tinyclos?
07:17:24 Worry about that when you're all finished.
07:17:35 As I say, nobody *develops* with Stalin.
07:17:47 ok
07:18:40 it says that stalin is R4RS-compatible
07:18:42 isn't this old?
07:19:22 and wouldn't i have to avoid any non R4RS code?
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12:17:54 Sorry, stupid question but how to append an element to a list ? Do I really have to build a new one ?
12:21:49 (append (list 1 2 3) 4)
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12:22:05 athos: fail :p
12:22:23 rudybot: eval (append (list 1 2 3) (list 4))
12:22:23 p1dzkl: your r5rs sandbox is ready
12:22:23 p1dzkl: ; Value: {1 2 3 4}
12:22:47 leppie: heh
12:23:31 appending to a list is a very expensive operation though
12:23:42 athos: thanks.
12:24:01 kib2: well, it's (append (list 1 2 3) (list 4))
12:24:20 if the list is your own, and you you know you can 'abuse' it, you could use append!
12:26:04 leppie: ok, i was just doing my own "range" function, and was forced to use reverse like this : http://paste.lisp.org/display/84555
12:26:33 maybe that's not convenient ?
12:26:48 why do you need to reverse your own function?
12:27:21 because i need (0 0.5 1.0 1.5 etc.) and not (10 9.5 9.0 etc)
12:27:26 ok, I looked now :)
12:28:04 also, i need an "accu", is it the right way to do it ?
12:28:06 you could do reverse! in that case, as the accumilator is your own
12:28:27 yes, you need it, but dont use set!
12:28:35 just pass the expression to the call
12:29:34 ah yes, you mean "(range (+ from step) to step (cons from accu)))))" on the last line
12:29:34 well you dont need that externally, so use that range proc inside another range proc, that provides the empty list
12:30:19 so do: (define (range a b c) ... (what you have) (range a b c '()))
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12:31:27 btw (= from to) wont work, what would happen with (range 1 2 1) ?
12:31:34 btw (= from to) wont work, what would happen with (range 1 1 2) ?
12:31:38 oops :p
12:31:50 arrggg
12:31:54 leppie: yes i know for such cases :)
12:31:57 (range 1 2 2)
12:32:05 better to use <
12:32:15 ok
12:32:35 you violated floating point rule #1
12:37:28 also, i've lost my "[" key in the latest DrScheme version. Any idea ?
12:40:21 sorry I cant help you with that :)
12:42:00 np
12:42:44 edit->preferences->editing->square bracket->automatically adjust opening square brackets
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13:08:14 p1dzkl: it was already done. In fact , to obtain "[" on my French keyboard, i need to type AltGr + 5, but it does not work inside the editor.
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14:08:24 leppie: ping!
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14:08:35 kib2: pong
14:08:43 is this one better ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/84559
14:10:00 yes
14:10:33 the check looks a bit heavy though
14:11:37 ok, thanks for your advices.
14:13:32 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84559#1
14:13:59 not tested
14:16:37 ok tested, seems to work :)
14:20:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84559#2 using named let instead
14:22:51 great :)
14:24:03 now it is almost looking like C 'for' loop
14:24:29 I guess you could even write that smaller using 'do'
14:24:48 but like most people, I can never readily remember the syntax :)
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14:28:32 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84559#3 using 'do' instead
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14:36:06 seems like named let and do are redondant no ?!
14:36:27 what do you mean?
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14:37:03 you can do loops with them, and what you can do with one is doable with the other.
14:37:17 all 3 annotations expand to pretty much the same code :)
14:37:27 there are a lot of ways to do thing
14:37:28 s
14:38:22 if your scheme has an expand procedure, you can see what happens, like in PLT's macro stepper
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14:40:31 they should expand to some form of letrec, which is yet another way of writing the same thing, just longer
14:42:22 personally I find the named let the most readable
14:43:53 leppie: i wasn't aware of named let
14:44:19 yeah, I discovered it very late when learning scheme
14:44:47 is it a macro ?
14:44:52 yes
14:44:56 I'm getting "typecheck: untyped identifier byte-regexp imported from module in: byte-regexp", in PLT-Scheme 4.2.1.
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14:46:24 leppie: What is commonly used as hashmaps in Scheme ?
14:46:28 Can I do something to stop this error?
14:46:53 kib2: there are hashtables
14:47:07 most scheme's have them in some form
14:47:23 also provided by SRFI 69
14:47:26 leppie: that's the problem "in some forms"
14:47:43 no standard one
14:48:07 R6RS has them too :)
14:48:30 masm: IIRC, a type for `byte-regexp' was added recently.
14:49:39 kib2: how about: (define (range from to) (if (< from to) (cons from (range (+ 1 from) to)) '())) ?
14:51:49 eli: good one liner :)
14:53:23 With the step: (define (range2 from to step) (if (< from to) (cons from (range2 (+ step from) to step)) '()))
14:53:40 kib2: Note that it's not tail recursive, but in many implementations it won't matter much.
14:53:55 s/many/good/
14:54:48 eli, will it work, you think, if I try PLT-Scheme 4.2.1.5?
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14:55:22 I'm trying to use http-client, which is written with #lang typed-scheme.
14:55:31 masm: I think so, but you can also ask on the list to be sure.
14:55:42 It is not tail recursive because the last instruction is a 'cons' and not 'range2' that's it ?
14:56:09 masm: You might run into more problems, since TS wasn't used much for this kind of stuff.
14:56:38 kib2: Yes. In theory, it could blow up your stack.
14:56:56 In practice, Scheme implementations are very good at having no stack limit.
14:57:24