The initial hostility between the two races in WC3 was so-so. Both sides made cock ups that wound up causing the other to become more and more aggressive towards each other.

The continued aggression post-Third War however is however simple Orc aggression. They had returned to a neutral understanding after working with each other and then the Orcs decided to continue invading even after they knew full well what they were doing. They know its their home but they don't care.
It's also disputable how much of the Orcs reasons are simply lumber given how they apparently have left much of it to simply rot.

Kaldorei easily at this point. Like Zael said the Night Elves have the stronger claim in Ashenvale whereas the Frostwolves mirror this in the Alterac Mountains.

I'm voting on behalf of the Night Elves here. I feel like the Orcs have taken things way too far, especially when chopped down lumber was simply being left to rot as a taunt to the Elves. They've been far too cruel and vicious about getting lumber, and don't seem to be willing to do much looking elsewhere to find it. However, I do point out that the Night Elves were in the wrong for attacking without attempt of communication when the Orcs first arrived in Ashenvale.

You know what would have been great?

"Alright you lot, get back to work. Thrall wants his settlement finished by the time he returns." "Please, stop!" "What is this-?" "This is our sacred homeland and our trees are very precious to us. Why do you attack us?" "It's some sort of... strange elf? Yet she has the look of a warrior of all things...! Lok'tar ogar, Elf! We are the Horde, and we have orders to gather lumber to build a settlement for our leader." "Your methods are harmful and reckless. Our Wisps gather wood from the trees without damaging them. If you prove yourself worthy, we will assemble a mighty host of them and supply you with your lumber." "Hhnhh... we could simply take the wood from you, but I sense many of us would die in glorious battle, and Thrall will certainly want as many of us alive to support him. Very well, elf."

Well there's that, then there's the fact that Night Elves are Alliance and Orcs are Horde.

They don't want to destroy it, they want to gather resources. I think that is a valid reason to take it over.

Except they're cutting down far more than they need and just leaving it to rot. If it was simply about resources you wouldn't have them wasting it so liberally.
Or at at the very least they're just cutting down for the sake of it at this point. This has been a thing since vanilla where even under Thrall this was happening.

They need resources, they are taking what they need to expand and sustain their existence.

If the Night Elves cannot defend it, they do not deserve it. To the victor, go Ashenvale.

Luckily, the Night Elves have been bitch slapping the Orcs up one side of Ashenvale and down the other. They drove a potentially good leader into an insane warlord out of desperation because he just couldn't gain ground.

Luckily, the Night Elves have been bitch slapping the Orcs up one side of Ashenvale and down the other. They drove a potentially good leader into an insane warlord out of desperation because he just couldn't gain ground.

Boo-ya.

The Night Elves are not "bitch slapping" the Orcs. In fact, it may be the opposite.

Horde quests have you man a goblin shredder and obliterate a ton of night elves, and an ancient.

I say just burn it to the ground. Orcs get no lumber, night elves have no forest. Both sides are equal in misery.

You know, in Wolfheart I think Tyrande thought to actually lit fire to the forest to kill the orcs as she felt her side wasn't winning. And it would make sense, rather then let one of their holy places end in the hands of the orcs, better to destroy it so nobody gets it. And, to be honest, the orcs would get more to lose out of this. In the end, the night elves do lose their sacred tress... but they're ensuring the orcs don't get any wood. The orcs don't have other places from which to get wood actually, they couldn't enter Darkshore as the zone is easily defendable when coming from Ashenvale and the Felwood wood is rotten. So the orcs would have no resources to make several types of weapons. And, once their current weapons wear out, the night elves could push back and regrow the forest easily.

I don't want to excuse anything, especially after the full-scale invasion of Ashenvale in Cataclysm, but the matter is that night elves and orcs ended to be enemies of one another for the fault, and in the same time, the misunderstanding and the pretty different mentality of both.

By one part, the night elves saw their sacred forest desecrated, and they were obviously habit to assault with fury and violence anyone who would have dared to do such a thing. They had their reasons, they are not perfectly right but indeed they are not wrong either, problem is that this automatically activated the orcish way of dealing with such kind of situations, something like "they dare to mess with us with no reason? SMASH THEM TO THE GROUND AND LET THEM SEE WE ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLE WITH!", especially when the orcs in question, well....were those of the Warsong Clan. They pretty continued to see the killing for just cutting some trees a bullshit, and the night elves continued to see the orcs desecrating their forest, and both sides are simply too proud to recognize their respective mistakes, so they kept to treat one another as hated enemies all along.

As I said, I don't excuse actions, and is simply obvious that after their invasion in Cataclysm orcs have crossed the line (no matter the reasons); I'm just simply saying that "mending" the situation was something possible only with both sides lowering their heads and trying to understand the reasons of the other side, instead no one of them did that for even a single second.

- - - Updated - - -

Funny thing is, Tyrande pretty formulated this plan in Wolfheart in case the orcs would have won.

I agree with you that both sides are too proud to admit their mistakes. That said, the night elves did do something to try and mend the situation.
In the Shattering and in Garrosh's short story it is stated that:
-orcs have goods in their markets, but they mostly come from trade (Garrosh's story)
-night elves had a trade agreement with the Horde before 12 sentinels were found skinned (the Shattering).
So, what I get from this is that the night elves offered what the Horde, and the orcs, needed through trade. They gave food and wood, it is unknown what they got in return, but considering that Durotar isn't such a rich land... the trade might have not been in their favor (of course of this I'm speculating, as it's unknown what the orcs gave in favor of the goods traded from the night elves).
Furthermore, the orcs needed water for drinking and farmlands... but here's the issue, they had it. There's a river flowing from Azshara into Durotar and Barrens, and while Durotar might not be so great for farming, Barrens could have been with some irrigations... but Garrosh let it be polluted by his excavations for minerals used to make weapons and machines of war (Baine's short story) then asked for water from tauren and complained he didn't have enough.

In the time of Thrall, the orcs also tried to mend the situation somewhat, there was a peace summit in Theramore... but Thrall didn't keep the Warsong in check at all at any time... and in the time of Garrosh... well, not only did Garrosh not keep his people in line, he gave them weapons so that's quite obvious.

OR, and this is just crazy talk, the orcs could go back to their damn planet? Terrokar has plenty of trees. Plus with the Alliance dominating them in the war, why wouldn't we deport the trouble-makers and war-mongers back to their world and seal the portal? Oh wait it makes sense so it wont happen. Hurray for WoW lore.

Well back then night elves were not Alliance but even in the scenario you quoted it wouldn't have ended as the poster said, rather it would have ended like this:
Night elf: Hey greenskins, these are our lands and you are tresspassing in our sacred forests, leave now or face the wrath of Cenarius!
Grom: What is this... looks like a high elf, only taller and blue... ha, I'm not scared of your petty threats, we orcs long for battle!
Night elf: Andu-falah-dor! Let battle be joined!
Grom: For the Horde!
*battle commences*

Let's be honest now, I like the night elves but neither side is known for perfect and rational choices.

Now, if Thrall would have been in Grom's place, I suspect things would probably have gone a lot different!
Thrall would have probably managed to start some diplomatic talk after the first scouting party from the night elves would have attacked. And Grom and Jaina would have killed eachother... so it still wouldn't have ended so great

Except they're cutting down far more than they need and just leaving it to rot. If it was simply about resources you wouldn't have them wasting it so liberally.
Or at at the very least they're just cutting down for the sake of it at this point. This has been a thing since vanilla where even under Thrall this was happening.

I don't think it is done intentionally, it's mostly for bad efficiency, probably. They tend to cut a certain amount of wood, but they end to cut too much of it, much more of the capability of their caravans. It's a detail orcs don't tend to care, but for the night elves a tree cut for nothing it's like a person killed for nothing.

No doubts it's something orcs will have to learn and master better when the "cut field" will shift from Ashenvale to Azshara, since the trees there are not over-abundant as they are in Ashenvale.

Originally Posted by Cloud2038

OR, and this is just crazy talk, the orcs could go back to their damn planet? Terrokar has plenty of trees. Plus with the Alliance dominating them in the war, why wouldn't we deport the trouble-makers and war-mongers back to their world and seal the portal? Oh wait it makes sense so it wont happen. Hurray for WoW lore.

Oh yeah, a lot of sense dude. I don't even know of which planet you're talking about. Draenor? That planet doesn't exist anymore, there are just Outlands, that are nothing but a bunch of rocky piecies floating in the Twisting Nether.

Originally Posted by Snowraven

So, what I get from this is that the night elves offered what the Horde, and the orcs, needed through trade. They gave food and wood, it is unknown what they got in return, but considering that Durotar isn't such a rich land... the trade might have not been in their favor (of course of this I'm speculating, as it's unknown what the orcs gave in favor of the goods traded from the night elves).

As you said, we can only speculate, but night elves shouldn't have traded with the orcs out of good faith and goodness if they had zero benefit from it, especially with the Warsong pressing on their borders all the time. My guess is that Durotar have some abundant resources, but not resources of life sustaining, it's very probable that there a lot of metals and minerals in such a rocky desert, much more than in any night elven land (just look at how Garrosh literally transformed Orgrimmar, such huge amount of iron has been extracted in Durotar, there is little doubt about it) so my humble guess is that orcs gave to the night elves the resources for sustain the development of "war's stuff" (which, ironically, could have helped them in the battle against the Warsong) and for that they gave all the kind of life sustaining resources that Durotar lacked. Ofcourse it's all speculation, but sounds pretty logical.

Furthermore, the orcs needed water for drinking and farmlands... but here's the issue, they had it. There's a river flowing from Azshara into Durotar and Barrens, and while Durotar might not be so great for farming, Barrens could have been with some irrigations... but Garrosh let it be polluted by his excavations for minerals used to make weapons and machines of war (Baine's short story) then asked for water from tauren and complained he didn't have enough.

I don't think orcs ever had problems with water, probably not abundant but was there; the problem has been the Cataclysm, which caused a drought in Durotar (and, ironic slap in the face, a portion of Durotar has been devastated by a flood). Ofcourse Garrosh's stubborness about his war campaign didn't help at all.

In the time of Thrall, the orcs also tried to mend the situation somewhat, there was a peace summit in Theramore... but Thrall didn't keep the Warsong in check at all at any time...

He was concerned but yeah, he pretty let them do their thing there. I guess he had little choices, he had to deal with the situation and realized that those morons doing battle in Ashenvale were the only considerable source of lumber that his people could ever get (since you can trade everything with night elves, but lumber is a big no-no).

Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-10-16 at 11:22 AM.

Originally Posted by Keyblader

It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact

Proof:

Originally Posted by ravenmoon

no matter what I said, you would find one way or another to undermine it or ridicule it. It wasn't in the interest of fair game with you, it was vindictive and cruel, just like the description of the race you adore so much