Kickstarter - Brenda Brathwaite and Tom Hall RPG

October 5th, 2012, 20:34

Originally Posted by DeepO
Now this response is just sad.

I agree. Your response was indeed sad.

Originally Posted by CraigCWB
Pretty ignorant to claim there's no difference between the actual developers of those games leaving the company they worked for and starting a new company, and Brenda Garno who wrote the manuals for Sirtech managing to talk a company in Canada into making Wizardry 8 after Sirtech went out of business. But facts and logic are unimportant to you, aren't they? As long as you get your old school shooter-with-RPG-elements out of it, what do you care?

Brenda Brathwaite was a lead designer on Wizardry 8. She also wrote the story and did the NPC scripting and dialogue. Do you have information that shows otherwise? Were you there while it was being developed? I only ask because it sounds like you were.

For someone who wants to talk about facts and logic, you seem to be lacking in both. But I think people are used to that from you by now.

You sure seem invested in this for a game that you keep claiming you have no interest in.

Using words like "face booK" and "social media" not only make me cringe, but give me the urge to pick up a poker and start flailing around. Those people are not gamers, wouldn't know a decent rpg if it mugged them in an alley, and don't have a clue about what real rpgr's want to play. I'm waiting for someone to laugh and say this is all a sad joke.

Another "rpg" shouldn't be a bad thing. I hope it gets funded, but doesn't matter to me one way or the other.
I'm waiting for more information myself before I take the plunge. Not sure why people are upset with each other about it on here. Sounds like to codex lol.
However, if it does, I hope it hits just under $2.1million so it doesn't get mobile support

Brenda Brathwaite was a lead designer on Wizardry 8. She also wrote the story and did the NPC scripting and dialogue.

Oh, that explains why it was so "good" doesn't it?

You do realize that Wizardry 8 was done by the company that did Jagged Alliance, and not by Sirtech, right? Because, Sirtech kinda went out of business… possibly because instead of doing Wizardry 8 in the early 1990s, they decided to not make RPGs anymore and instead invested in doing stupid games for non-gamers, such as I mentioned earlier, and becoming a publishing house for other development companies such as the makers of Jagged Alliance. Anyway, I'm not surprised Ian Currie's crew gave Brenda some sweet billing, since she was their only claim on the Wizardry franchise. Doesn't change the fact that Brenda went to them as a refugee after Sirtech crashed and burned, largely because of her, in my own estimation.

Do you have information that shows otherwise? Were you there while it was being developed? I only ask because it sounds like you were.

You ask because you want to dismiss my 25 years of being an observer of the industry and its workings in favor of your 5 years of being a moron in this web forum.

For someone who wants to talk about facts and logic, you seem to be lacking in both. But I think people are used to that from you by now.

Yawn.

You sure seem invested in this for a game that you keep claiming you have no interest in.

I'm invested in making sure people who don't know Brenda Garno and her history with the RPG genre know who she is and what she's done, because I don't want to see her do it again on a new batch of clueless. But you're the big Deus Ex/Warren Spector fanboy aren't you? Everyone who is unhappy with the quality of RPGs in recent years should be looking at you. As for me, I hardly play them anymore. The only ones I enjoy at all are Bethesda's, which is a shame because I used to hate the Elder Scrolls games. Back in the old days, when other RPGs had charm, depth and complexity that Bethesda's titles lacked.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Brenda Brathwaite was a lead designer on Wizardry 8. She also wrote the story and did the NPC scripting and dialogue.

I loved Wiz 8. But Wiz 8's universe, epic storyline, gameplay mechanics are almost all directly from Wiz 7, which is clearly DW Bradley's universe, epic storyline, and gameplay mechanics. And honestly, the writing and the puzzles in Wiz 7 were much deeper.

The plot vignette update didn't do much for me. And the gamasutra interview suggests they didn't do their homework about what kickstarter demands. There's a wealth of data on past kickstarter campaigns, what people did right and what people did wrong. Getting this stuff right from the beginning would give me a lot more faith that they have what it takes to bring back the magic.

Originally Posted by CraigCWB
Oh, that explains why it was so "good" doesn't it?.

Not sure if that's the reason, but most of us around here actually do agree that Wizardry 8 was pretty good.

Originally Posted by CraigCWB
You do realize that Wizardry 8 was done by the company that did Jagged Alliance, and not by Sirtech, right? Because, Sirtech kinda went out of business… possibly because instead of doing Wizardry 8 in the early 1990s, they decided to not make RPGs anymore and instead invested in doing stupid games for non-gamers, such as I mentioned earlier, and becoming a publishing house for other development companies such as the makers of Jagged Alliance. Anyway, I'm not surprised Ian Currie's crew gave Brenda some sweet billing, since she was their only claim on the Wizardry franchise. Doesn't change the fact that Brenda went to them as a refugee after Sirtech crashed and burned, largely because of her, in my own estimation.

Cool..

Originally Posted by CraigCWB
You ask because you want to dismiss my 25 years of being an observer of the industry and its workings in favor of your 5 years of being a moron in this web forum.

I ask because you're acting like you were actually there in the studio while it was being developed. I fully expected your usual troll-like response though.

Originally Posted by CraigCWB
I'm invested in making sure people who don't know Brenda Garno and her history with the RPG genre know who she is and what she's done, because I don't want to see her do it again on a new batch of clueless. But you're the big Deus Ex/Warren Spector fanboy aren't you? Everyone who is unhappy with the quality of RPGs in recent years should be looking at you. As for me, I hardly play them anymore. The only ones I enjoy at all are Bethesda's, which is a shame because I used to hate the Elder Scrolls games. Back in the old days, when other RPGs had charm, depth and complexity that Bethesda's titles lacked.

I'm sure we all appreciate that you're here to champion the cause of crpg hardcoreness.

Originally Posted by oasis789
I loved Wiz 8. But Wiz 8's universe, epic storyline, gameplay mechanics are almost all directly from Wiz 7, which is clearly DW Bradley's universe, epic storyline, and gameplay mechanics. And honestly, the writing and the puzzles in Wiz 7 were much deeper.

Of course certain things carried over, it was a sequel after all. Personally, I don't feel that Wiz 7 and 8 were really that similar apart from the basic mechanics, but a lot of people who played Wiz 7 when it was new have a strong sense of nostalgia with that game. Wiz 7 was just dated and clunky to me, but I'd probably feel different if I hadn't played Wiz 8 first.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Of course certain things carried over, it was a sequel after all. Personally, I don't feel that Wiz 7 and 8 were really that similar apart from the basic mechanics, but a lot of people who played Wiz 7 when it was new have a strong sense of nostalgia with that game. Wiz 7 was just dated and clunky to me, but I'd probably feel different if I hadn't played Wiz 8 first.

That may be true, but my point here is, that one of the developers of the proposed as yet untitled game was the writer and designer of a classic game, Wiz 8, whose writing and design were to some degree, perhaps a large degree, not her own. Why does that matter? Because the proposed game has been described to be more of a Wizardry than an Anachronox. The main selling point, and one of the few selling points, of the proposed game is that the developers were directly responsible for those classic games they mention throughout their pitch, so we can trust them to make a new one that is similar. You can surely see why a reasonable person might not be convinced.

Brenda Brathwaite was a lead designer on Wizardry 8. She also wrote the story and did the NPC scripting and dialogue. Do you have information that shows otherwise?

To be fair, she was listed among 7 others as having design credit with neither them nor herself credited as lead. Given that she is also credited for story, PC Dialogue & Writing, and as sole credit for both NPC Scripting & Dialogue and writing the manual it might be reasonable to infer she had too many duties to have acted as lead designer. So, whether someone loves or hates Wizardry 8, it would not serve as an honest or instructive demonstration of her capabilities in a lead design role.

There are several games where she is credited as lead designer however; these would likely give a better indication as to how she would perform in that role than a game in which she is not credited as such. These games are Dungeon & Dragons: Heroes, Playboy: The Mansion, Playboy: The Mansion - Private Party, and Ravenwood Fair (a facebook game like FrontierVille.)

Touting her design experience isn't particularly reassuring when you look closely at the specifics - in fact its rather dreadful. Of course the problem is that I think some who are attempting to imagine a sufficient resume as "lead designer" are under the mistaken impression that she will be performing that role. Looking at her experience in full and considering what roles she played in successful games, it seems far more likely - to the point of being blindingly obvious - that she will most likely be taking a lead in the writing and story design. With that in mind, Tom Hall's presence makes far more sense as his more impressive experience leans more towards the design and project management side of things.

Or did people really imagine that someone who's most recent game design experience were a couple playboy games and a farm-ville clone would take lead in game design while the person who's experience was mostly in design would write the story? Or is that what they're actually planning to do? If it is then that would seem like wasting the experience of each of them while using them in their weakest capacities. Perhaps this is an intentionally created but incorrect impression - afterall, the game they describe sounds more like Wizardry than Anachronox so perhaps it is helpful to allow potential backers to make the association that way. .

Originally Posted by oasis789
That may be true, but my point here is, that one of the developers of the proposed as yet untitled game was the writer and designer of a classic game, Wiz 8, whose writing and design were to some degree, perhaps a large degree, not her own. Why does that matter? Because the proposed game has been described to be more of a Wizardry than an Anachronox. The main selling point, and one of the few selling points, of the proposed game is that the developers were directly responsible for those classic games they mention throughout their pitch, so we can trust them to make a new one that is similar. You can surely see why a reasonable person might not be convinced.

So what you're saying is that Brenda's work on Wizardy 8 should be discounted because it was a sequel?

Originally Posted by Thrasher
That is odd reasoning. The obsidian team actually has members that designed and coded those games. Not so for w8 and this team.

Are you following this thread at all? You don't sound like you have any idea what you're talking about. Read what I just wrote about Brenda, or better yet, here's the actual credits for Wizardry 8.

Also, some of the games that Obsidian are name-dropping to credit themselves only have a single person in common with Obsidian. It's the same thing.

Originally Posted by jhwisner
To be fair, she was listed among 7 others as having design credit with neither them nor herself credited as lead. Given that she is also credited for story, PC Dialogue & Writing, and as sole credit for both NPC Scripting & Dialogue and writing the manual it might be reasonable to infer she had too many duties to have acted as lead designer. So, whether someone loves or hates Wizardry 8, it would not serve as an honest or instructive demonstration of her capabilities in a lead design role.

No one claimed she was *the* lead designer. It was being questioned whether she even had any significant degree of involvement with Wiz 8. Being credited with all the things you mention only shows how wrong that was.

Originally Posted by jhwisner
To be fair, she was listed among 7 others as having design credit with neither them nor herself credited as lead. Given that she is also credited for story, PC Dialogue & Writing, and as sole credit for both NPC Scripting & Dialogue and writing the manual it might be reasonable to infer she had too many duties to have acted as lead designer.

…

Touting her design experience isn't particularly reassuring when you look closely at the specifics - in fact its rather dreadful. Of course the problem is that I think some who are attempting to imagine a sufficient resume as "lead designer" are under the mistaken impression that she will be performing that role. Looking at her experience in full and considering what roles she played in successful games, it seems far more likely - to the point of being blindingly obvious - that she will most likely be taking a lead in the writing and story design.

Originally Posted by JDR13
So what you're saying is that Brenda's work on Wizardy 8 should be discounted because it was a sequel?

That is exactly what I am saying. Yes, her work as a creative writer (story, dialogue etc as she was credited) should be discounted. Not because it was a sequel per se, but because it was heavily derivative of someone else's work, and not an improvement on it.

Look, it seems reasonable that if someone claims that they are going to write an epic, grand narrative that spans space and time, that this claim can be evaluated on whether or not she actually wrote one before.

Originally Posted by oasis789
That is exactly what I am saying. Yes, her work as a creative writer (story, dialogue etc as she was credited) should be discounted. Not because it was a sequel per se, but because it was heavily derivative of someone else's work, and not an improvement on it.

That's your own subjective opinion about Wiz 8. You've made it obvious that you feel Wiz 8 is inferior to previous Wizardy titles, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but not everyone feels the same way. I'm personally glad that D.W. Bradley decided not to be a part of Wiz 8 because most of what he's done since Wiz 7 has been mediocre. I feel it was actually a better game without him, but that's just speculation of course.

Originally Posted by oasis789
Look, it seems reasonable that if someone claims that they are going to write an epic, grand narrative that spans space and time, that this claim can be evaluated on whether or not she actually wrote one before.

I can agree with that. Not sure why you're acting like she didn't write it though.

*Edit* To clarify, I'm referring specifically to Wiz 8, not the entire Dark Savant trilogy or the lore. Yes, the overarching storyline was already in place, but she still wrote the game.