Enochian wrote:ok i see what you are saying. but is this canonically accurate?

As far as I know. I'm sure someone will hit this thread and give more details than I can on how the attainments of annutarayoga tantra manifest but I do know that jalu or rainbow body is very specific and only a part of Dzogchen. Its even specific and unique to mengagde.

Enochian wrote:ok i see what you are saying. but is this canonically accurate?

As far as I know. I'm sure someone will hit this thread and give more details than I can on how the attainments of annutarayoga tantra manifest but I do know that jalu or rainbow body is very specific and only a part of Dzogchen. Its even specific and unique to mengagde.

One can attain rainbow body through long sde as well.

Good to know.Is it based on a different set of methods or are they the same?

From our point of view, we can perceive only the Nirmanakaya. Only Aryas on the Bhumis can perceive the Sambhogakaya, and only Buddhas can "perceive" the Dharmakaya.But all three kayas are inseperable.

If we could see the "bodies" of Mila, Marpa, etc., after they were enlightened, and before they were enlightened, I'm not sure we would be able to note a difference. This is NOT due to their being no difference...it is entirely due to our own faulty cognition.

Even one of The Supreme Nirmanakaya's disciples was noted to observe that Sakyamuni looked like nothing special, apart from the slight glow around his head!

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

conebeckham wrote:From our point of view, we can perceive only the Nirmanakaya. Only Aryas on the Bhumis can perceive the Sambhogakaya, and only Buddhas can "perceive" the Dharmakaya.But all three kayas are inseperable.

If we could see the "bodies" of Mila, Marpa, etc., after they were enlightened, and before they were enlightened, I'm not sure we would be able to note a difference. This is NOT due to their being no difference...it is entirely due to our own faulty cognition.

Even one of The Supreme Nirmanakaya's disciples was noted to observe that Sakyamuni looked like nothing special, apart from the slight glow around his head!

Milarepa was able to shrink himself down so he could hunker down in a conch shell during a storm or something, as well...right?And both he and Padampa Sangye were able to balance of stalks of grass......

Would these events have occurred to the vision of mundane sentient beings? I don't know. I think we'd need to see citations with regard to those issues you raise, but doctrinally, I've stated what has been asserted.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

conebeckham wrote:Milarepa was able to shrink himself down so he could hunker down in a conch shell during a storm or something, as well...right?And both he and Padampa Sangye were able to balance of stalks of grass......

Would these events have occurred to the vision of mundane sentient beings? I don't know. I think we'd need to see citations with regard to those issues you raise, but doctrinally, I've stated what has been asserted.

You know, that is a silly story. If Milarepa could fit his body in a conch shell, he could certainly keep the rain off by other means.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

For what it's worth... Mila said his predecessors were all Nirmanakayas and prophesied his descendants would all be greater than the next. Also about the chapter on Thogal in the Hundred Thousand Songs. A knowledgeable Kagyu lama told me that was about a special kind of student, a skipping the grades type. A togal is a skipping the grades type, he said. I wonder about that. Anytime I point out overlaps between Ati and the Mahamudra lineage he would get squirrelly. It's difficult with the really devoted Kagyu lamas, because they love their lineage so much, one hesitates to press and hurt feelings.

With regard to the fruit, as samsara people we forget that dharma is not necessarily a systematic science. All the systematic appearance is sort of a big joke on us. A highly realized master is beyond limitations, by conquering Mara the Lord of Limitations. Please consider that when a text or teacher says, "you get fruit X doing method Y and not by any other method," it is to engender faith. The three statements; consider the three Vajra Verses, namely the second. I have come to a resolution that whatever you have unbreakable faith about is the dharma airline you should collect your frequent flier miles on. Without faith you got squat. Ultimately, it's all one single upadesha of life. All kayas are complete in a single instant already manifest.