At Wrathgate, technically, our characters are not at the battlefield . They're overlooking the battlefield from their perch. Yes we're there, but the POV of the movies is not our characters. It is a separate cut scene.

Yes, but they still see what happens at Wrathgate. I mean maybe Tirion asks us to leave when the fight is over, but unless that happens I'm not sure why our characters wouldn't stick around to see what happens afterward, knowing what was told to them in the Halls of Reflection. Most of our characters strike me as the kind that like to make sure things get done.

When Tirion speaks, people believe him. You can speculate, of course, that it is Bolvar, but that would mean you don't believe him.

It is just as plausible that the Scourge are going to war against themselves, ala the Zerg after the death of the Overmind. That powerful Deathknights and Banshee's and Vyrkul are warlords vying for control.

Well yes, I'm not arguing that part. I just disagree that our characters aren't there when it happens.

On the whole, I'll say I'm not looking for justification to have any character of mine go "Oh, I know who's in that block of ice". By the same token, I sincerely doubt any players would have been able to witness Arthas' true last moments--though unless I'm mistaken, they would at least be aware that the spirits Frostmourne held were extremely present for the encounter, going by what I've heard of one of it's phases.

Really, the way it's all kind of left ambiguous is one of my favorite parts of the whole thing.

I think that it's believable enough to possibly have a stance of "PCs might have been there, but if they know why someone like Tirion would want to hide the truth, they're going to keep quiet." (bear in mind that also, "canonically", you personally helped Tirion out long, long ago in the Plaguelands, so it's no stretch to say your guy could include personal respect and friendship as a reason for cooperating).

I know the problem with this is that it may go against the grain for some characters, though, so I would also consider, personally, "I know what I heard in the Halls of Reflection, I know what I heard when we burst into the Citadel's front gates, and I have my suspicions--but the war is won and we're not going to dwell on it" equally valid, for the purpose of RP.

Personally, I don't believe the characters are there. The reason being that I believe the cinematic takes place a while after the initial kill.

During the Arthas fight, the burned up Bolvar is chained above the Frozen Throne, and is never let down during it all. Yet, during the cinematic, there is no Bolvar there until he speaks, which shocks Tirion. Tirion obviously not knowing he was there.

The cinematic is also not available until it's announced in Dalaran that he is dead, which gives me reason to believe that Tirion stuck around afterwards, while the heroes were sent back to Dalaran to report their progress. (And take a much-needed rest after what Arthas does to the raid at 10%.)

Yes, but they still see what happens at Wrathgate. I mean maybe Tirion asks us to leave when the fight is over, but unless that happens I'm not sure why our characters wouldn't stick around to see what happens afterward, knowing what was told to them in the Halls of Reflection. Most of our characters strike me as the kind that like to make sure things get done.

I see your point. We know the context of the cut scene at Wrathgate. We don't see all the up-close-details of what happens from our perch, but we can put two and two together. Given the cut scene and the lack of context? At this point, for me, its speculation. I'm (hopefully) going to see that scene in game when the Sunday raid gets there. I do not want to see it BEFORE we get there.

Well yes, I'm not arguing that part. I just disagree that our characters aren't there when it happens.

Do we know exactly how this happens? Like you beat the Lich king and the cinematic plays? There is a huge difference of watching the cinematic in Dalaran and seeing it in the raid itself. I mean, if it is supposed to be secret, and we have this giant magical statue in Dalaran that plays the secret conversation between Bolvar and Tirion, someone in the Dalaran Public Works really screwed up.

Until I have evidence to the contrary, I'd have to agree with Threnn and Genise.

Chrystenise wrote:Personally, I don't believe the characters are there. The reason being that I believe the cinematic takes place a while after the initial kill.

During the Arthas fight, the burned up Bolvar is chained above the Frozen Throne, and is never let down during it all. Yet, during the cinematic, there is no Bolvar there until he speaks, which shocks Tirion. Tirion obviously not knowing he was there.

The cinematic is also not available until it's announced in Dalaran that he is dead, which gives me reason to believe that Tirion stuck around afterwards, while the heroes were sent back to Dalaran to report their progress. (And take a much-needed rest after what Arthas does to the raid at 10%.)

I bow to your superior google/internet/WoW-fu. XD

My personal speculation was that the raid had pretty much cleared out of the room at the time the cinematic happens, whether they're just down the hall a little ways gemming and enchanting their new purplez or already back in Dalaran having some Arthas-is-Dead Pie. The fact that you don't see this right after his kill makes that seem much more likely -- with Wrathgate, you turn in the quest and bam, fighting and plague and dargonz oh my. And when it's over, you're there right after it's all over and go down into the aftermath.

Seeing that the Arthas/Tirion/Bolvar bit doesn't happen in-raid makes it seem all the more like this is something shiny for the players. It's something that brings closure to the story, but isn't something our characters are actually witnessing.

If it does indeed happen after we're gone, I would agree that our characters should not be able to figure this out. That would make it all the more compelling when it comes out in the open in the near or far future.

Threnn wrote:Longer version. Poking around the interwebs, I'm pretty sure the last time any players actually ever see Bolvar in-game is during his death at the Wrathgate, unless you get to see the "Tortured Champion" vision during the Yogg-Saron encounter. I haven't seen it myself, and if it's on youtube, my search-fu is failing. I'm guessing he's going to look like the burned-out husk you see in the post-Arthas Dalaran cinematic, though. Not sure if there's anything that specifically identifies him as Bolvar during the vision, though, so I'd defer to someone here who has seen it.

You never actually see him, although you do hear him. There isn't anything to see because all you get is a shadowy character model.

I'm all man and all machine, a little sicko, little meanI rock your brains out and you're sure to be damnedI lick your little finger then chew up your handfor that's who I am: The Biomechanic man.