i use the cross choke Yrkoon9's talking about, but i've only used it in matwork. i find it's especially useful vs wrestlers, because it's setup starts like a standard collar tie-up (specifically the right hand). they don't see it coming because they're comfortable in that position. very sneaky.

i'm going to try to work this from standing; nice tournament pics, by the way!

I've used that same choke in newaza for years. It was one of the first chokes I ever learned as a teenager. I prefer the gator roll though because it's sneakier and works on more advanced players more consistently.

I've never used it standing though, although I have used other standing chokes effectively.

The reason I was asking him about other ways to set it up is because I remember a guy at my club doing it to me years ago. It was the exact same choke, but I wasn't going for his leg. He moved me into position for the choke with some sort of kuzushi but I can't remember how. I seem to remember him coming in sideways though, so I'm wondering if he feinted an uchimata or something.

12/14/2005 4:11pm,

Yrkoon9

I'll try to address a few points in this post.

First Osiris, would I consider it a high percentage move? Yes. The application of this technique both standing and on the ground work very well. But as I said it is a suprise move. Only gonna work on a guy once. Will it work with strikes involved? You are now taking it 'to da street'? Well yes, I would say it would work. Considering it is cold out right now and the number of people wearing jackets today. Yeah. Like I said it only took 3 or 4 seconds for him to be flat on the mat. That is 3 or 4 seconds of him punching me. And if you look at the pictures my head is extremely tight and close to him. The leverage for punching me, even outside the Judo sphere, is limited. It isnt a traditional tie-up where he can bomb me with hooks or land a knee to my face. And considering that I would have a lot more time to do MY punching while he is unconscious it might be considered more practical. Especially, as another poster pointed out, geee officer I dunno he was punching me a lot and then fell down.

Another reason for its high percentage is the subjectivity. In short, this is one of my toichiwaza. Favorite technique. The skill disparity is going to be so high that I could probably pull it off on a lot of people. Wheras someone trying it for the first time probably isn't going to make it happen. And as we all know, almost anything can work given a high enough skill disparity. Even a cheesmo move.

Moving on. Yes, that choke is just a variation of a standard X choke. You can use it in the guard, standing, wherever. Most people won't expect it standing though. It isn't something new and original. Nor is it anything I made up. I have been using it for years.

Also, my style of Judo is 'stand up'. Meaning I use posture. I prefer the high collar grip and prefer harai/uchimata throws. So I use this grip many ways. I can stall with it. I can throw with it. And, as demonstrated, I can choke with it. It is my style.

Yes Lawdog, the snapdown version of this choke works too. In fact that is kinda what i do when they see my leg. And if I remember correctly I had tried Uchimata on this guy and he grabbed my leg so I bailed out. I knew he would go for it again if presented with the opportunity. So I put it out there.

Now...wanna know how to counter it?

Simple. Makkikomi and I would probably break my own arms in the landings since they are crossed up. Throw you arm up in a big outside-to-inside circle and use makkikomi. My hands and thumbs are tied up and I will not be able to release them before we hit the ground. Chances are I will be injured. That is why I pull the guy reeealllllly close to me when I do this choke. Because if he can get Makkikomi...Imma be real real hurt.

12/14/2005 4:18pm,

Ronin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yrkoon9

The photos on the last page were from a standing Xchoke. I will explain how I apply it and why it is so forcefull.

I use a hgh collar grip with my right hand. That means my thumb goes inside their collar right at the back of their neck. I control them with that for a second or two with a little stiff arm action.

I leave my right leg forward just a bit. Bait. As you can see he went for it.

I then slip my left hand across to grab HIS left lapel.

When he is sufficiently bent over trying to grab my leg I 'snap' the choke on by bringing my right arm over his head so it is on the opposite side. I pull in with both hands at the same time.

The choke is very ballistic. The shock against the vagus nerve does just as much for the choke as actually cutting off the blood.

It is a sneeky choke but it works. I use it all the time against guys. Unfortunately it only works once on them. Once they have had it applied to them they never fall for it again.

I recently used it in a match at my old school against a guy from the philipinnes. I choked him standing in under 3 seconds. Literally we shook hands, I took the back grip,applied the choke and he tapped.

The control you have over person with this move is very high, there is not much in terms of counters IF it gets sunk in deep, moving away from it sinks it in more and is easliy countered, moving in allows the choker to take it to the ground or peform a throw.
Best time to counter is when the attempted choker moves to grap the opposite lapel.

12/14/2005 4:26pm,

Snapp

People who say BJJ is no good for self defense... Do you imagine the BJJ guy pulling guard and then going for submissions?

Because seriously there is a whole other side to BJJ called the top game... Get em down, get on top, stay there and throw bombs.

Watch a George St.Pierre fight or Nogueria's recent fight with the Russian guy (meglademov or something?). They work to get on top and then stay there. If you didnt know BJJ you probably wouldn't even associate what they do with BJJ. But really it is BJJ all the way.

You also see this sort of thing in street fights with untrained people. One way or another, one guy gets on top of the other and then its all over. The top guy rains down strikes and the fight is either broken up or the bottom guy takes a severe beating.

So how exactly is it that skill in the art of "getting and maintaining dominant position" is no good for self defense?

Did you ever hear the story about how Helio did a standing X choke to someone who was trying to hold him up with a gun. Yup, choked him out before he pulled the trigger.

I really did hear this.

12/14/2005 4:52pm,

JohnnyFive

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnaeS

first i would like to say that i am a white belt with about 1 year of experience in BJJ so take as you will when considering what i say, i don't claim to be an expert but i see no real difference in controling someone with say a RNC choke (ask Omega) or cross choke(i'm gonna say that with the caveat that they have a heavy shirt/jacket on as opposed to a t shirt that easily rips) or any of the chokes that don't need you leveraging off the ground to apply them, i will admit that positional control is harder when you don't have the ground to force them against

you also have the throws that any grappling system may have

did you really mean to compare anything used in a kata to a tech. taht someone has practiced in an alive manner, plus you are comparing two trained fighters in a compitetion to someone USUALLY going against an untrained opponent on the street. From what i've read most people on this board, when talking about a street fight, assume that your opponent will be untrained

Also i think the knowledge a grappler would have of positional control would be a great asset when trying to apply these techniques on the street, especially in an art that trains to transition from one failed to another

Right,

So my original point was that there are a lot of kung fu/karate whatever people who think groundfighting is just like standing, only on the ground, so you can still do the punching and the kicking or whatever you like.

Saying that groundfighting moves work standing is pretty similar -- just because you can fight on the ground doesn't mean you can fight standing if you've never practiced it.

Now I wasn't saying that standing chokes and armlocks are not possible -- Yrkoon has some sort of really sneaky standing choke which is pretty sweet. But I would venture to guess that he has trained and practiced doing this standing.

12/14/2005 7:10pm,

katsu

my bro' who is a BB in isshinryu once sparred a bjj person who surprised the hell out of him by kicking him in the side of the head so my question: does bjj have such stand up techniques or was he using something else?

12/14/2005 8:18pm,

Yrkoon9

The first day of BJJ class is pulling guard. The second day teaches head kicks. So your brother faced a real life 2-day BJJ guy. Lucky he lived to tell about it.