There has been a lot of discussion about rules in multiple threads. How about if we have a thread to discuss rules and interpretations? If there are any questions or debates maybe somebody could weigh in with an answer or we can try to figure it out in here.

jhildebrand

11-25-2011, 10:08 PM

I thought the offense wasn't allowed to advance the fumble unless it is the person who fumbled the ball.

In the Jets game that is precisely how they scored. The ball was picked up and advanced into the endzone by the guard.

spikerman

11-25-2011, 10:11 PM

I thought the offense wasn't allowed to advance the fumble unless it is the person who fumbled the ball.

In the Jets game that is precisely how they scored. The ball was picked up and advanced into the endzone by the guard.

This is actually one that I know the answer to. Only the player that fumbled the ball can recover and/or advance it on 4th down and extra points. If any other offensive player recovers it, it's dead. If it's downs 1 through 3 any player can advance a fumble.

EDIT - To put it more clearly, that rule didn't apply on that play. It was legal.

Northman

11-25-2011, 10:28 PM

I thought the offense wasn't allowed to advance the fumble unless it is the person who fumbled the ball.

In the Jets game that is precisely how they scored. The ball was picked up and advanced into the endzone by the guard.

I immediately thought that as well but when i saw the various angles of the play the Olineman who picked it up was basically falling in the endzone anyway. Probably could of been challenged but i dont think it would of held up.

Nomad

11-26-2011, 06:47 PM

You know spiker the 'loss of down' in an intentional grounding has always confused me. Say, it's 1st down and the QB throws it away and results in intentional grounding. Well, it going to be second down to begin with, why with a loss of down, it's not 3rd down. Is it because with the penalty, it would have been to repeat 1st down and with the loss of down, it is now 2nd down. Hopefully, I haven't confused you:lol:

Davii

11-26-2011, 07:00 PM

You know spiker the 'loss of down' in an intentional grounding has always confused me. Say, it's 1st down and the QB throws it away and results in intentional grounding. Well, it going to be second down to begin with, why with a loss of down, it's not 3rd down. Is it because with the penalty, it would have been to repeat 1st down and with the loss of down, it is now 2nd down. Hopefully, I haven't confused you:lol:

You got it Nomad. Generally a penalty results in loss of yardage and replay the down, for instance, offensive holding on 1st and 10 results in 1st and 20. Intentional grounding is both loss of yardage AND down to make up for the sack that should've been.

spikerman

11-26-2011, 07:47 PM

You know spiker the 'loss of down' in an intentional grounding has always confused me. Say, it's 1st down and the QB throws it away and results in intentional grounding. Well, it going to be second down to begin with, why with a loss of down, it's not 3rd down. Is it because with the penalty, it would have been to repeat 1st down and with the loss of down, it is now 2nd down. Hopefully, I haven't confused you:lol:

Yep, you and Davii are exactly right. If it wasn't for the loss of down the offense would lose the yardage, but get to repeat the down. This is more of an effort to keep teams from doing it in order to get out of trouble. There are other penalties like that, like an illegal forward pass.

Nomad

11-26-2011, 09:24 PM

OK spiker......isn't a horsecollar where the player uses the shoulder padss to pull the ball carrier down from behind. Why is it the refs call it a horsecollar when the tackler pulls the jersey from behind....has that rule change.

Twice in this WAZZU/UW game the ref has called horsecollar where the tackler is only pulling on the jersey and not using the shoulder pads.

spikerman

11-27-2011, 07:53 AM

OK spiker......isn't a horsecollar where the player uses the shoulder padss to pull the ball carrier down from behind. Why is it the refs call it a horsecollar when the tackler pulls the jersey from behind....has that rule change.

Twice in this WAZZU/UW game the ref has called horsecollar where the tackler is only pulling on the jersey and not using the shoulder pads.

I can't say for sure if the NFL is different (I don't think it is), but in college the hand has to reach inside the jersey (it's tough to tell if a player actually grabs the shoulder pads) and the takedown has to be immediate. That's why you'll sometimes not see it called even if the defender does appear to "horsecollar". If the runner takes a few steps then the takedown isn't immediate (there are caveats to that too, but way too in depth to go into here) and it probably won't be called.

Getting back to your original question - I assume that the times it's called without the hand going inside the jersey is because it happened so fast and the action of the ball carrier made it look like a horsecollar so the official erred on the side of safety (which we're all taught to do).

One last thing that confuses people. A quarterback in the pocket can be horsecollared without a penalty. Why? I have no idea.

I hope this wasn't too convoluted.

karnage

12-02-2011, 11:59 PM

I immediately thought that as well but when i saw the various angles of the play the Olineman who picked it up was basically falling in the endzone anyway. Probably could of been challenged but i dont think it would of held up.

The rule also applies inside the last 2 minutes of a half, and I think may even be the last 4 minutes of the second half. Also challenging that play would have resulted in a penalty against Denver...since they ruled it a TD they can only review it from upstairs....but if it was ruled a non-touchdown then the Jets could have challenged since it would be considered a non-scoring play.

karnage

12-03-2011, 12:01 AM

I can't say for sure if the NFL is different (I don't think it is), but in college the hand has to reach inside the jersey (it's tough to tell if a player actually grabs the shoulder pads) and the takedown has to be immediate. That's why you'll sometimes not see it called even if the defender does appear to "horsecollar". If the runner takes a few steps then the takedown isn't immediate (there are caveats to that too, but way too in depth to go into here) and it probably won't be called.

Getting back to your original question - I assume that the times it's called without the hand going inside the jersey is because it happened so fast and the action of the ball carrier made it look like a horsecollar so the official erred on the side of safety (which we're all taught to do).

One last thing that confuses people. A quarterback in the pocket can be horsecollared without a penalty. Why? I have no idea.

I hope this wasn't too convoluted.

QB's in the pocket aren't considered runners, but since they aren't they are protected by the defensless player rules....

AlWilsonizKING

12-03-2011, 12:59 AM

One last thing that confuses people. A quarterback in the pocket can be horsecollared without a penalty. Why? I have no idea.

I always thought it's because of this...

..they banned the horsecollar tackle while players are running to help prevent injuries (Willhite anyone???) Well IMO they don't call it on the QB sacks because he's not running and not as prone to injury because of it.

Who knows though, just my thoughts.

PEACE!!!

karnage

12-03-2011, 01:03 AM

I always thought it's because of this...

..they banned the horsecollar tackle while players are running to help prevent injuries (Willhite anyone???) Well IMO they don't call it on the QB sacks because he's not running and not as prone to injury because of it.

Who knows though, just my thoughts.

PEACE!!!

qb's are protected as defenseless players....this is the entire rule book

The rule also applies inside the last 2 minutes of a half, and I think may even be the last 4 minutes of the second half.

Good point. I forgot about this. That's an NFL only rule. I'm not sure about the second half time, but I do know that in the NFL timing rules are slightly different at the end of the 1st half and the end of the game.

Joel

12-10-2011, 02:41 PM

The old Holy Roller play; Wikipedias article on it covers the remedial rule pretty well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roller_(American_football)

On the subject of "defenseless players:" It doesn't seem that applies to runners, as such, only receivers and QBs, rather encouraging passing. If a receiver is hit as he catches a pass it's a penalty that's fundamentally changed pass coverage. For years DBs deliberately timed contact to coincide with the balls arrival so they could legally flatten receivers and cause incomplete passes, interceptions or even fumbles. Now DBs are essentially forced to either knock the ball down or wait for receivers to make catches and start running before tackling them, which effectively gives receivers literal "free passes" on a regular basis.

Meanwhile, hitting running backs equally hard during or even before a handoff for which they're looking to the QB is a great LEGAL hit and forced fumble. What's up with THAT double standard?