Why I Resigned From the LDS Church

It’s customary to write an exit letter when leaving an organization after a long period of time, so here’s mine. I have no desire to flame or insult anyone. You don’t have to read this. It’s for my own soul to find peace. I share it in the spirit of love, especially for those who have prayed for me as I have gone through this difficult transition period over the last few years. God bless you.

A Few Preliminaries

First and foremost, I want to thank the many individuals over the years who have taught me the gospel or who have allowed me to teach them. I cherish moments spent in gospel doctrine class, in Seminary, in the High Priest’s Group and in Bishopric and High Council meetings when we have been edified together. There is nothing like being fed by the Lord through the scriptures.

Second, I am at peace with this decision. I confirmed it with the Lord in prayer. In fact, it was the Lord who continually urged this action upon me for the past three or four days. I know, I know. You may say, “Well, it wasn’t the Lord urging you to resign your membership.” I disagree. It was the honorable thing to do. It saved sixteen men many hours of time away from their families.

Third, I do not feel any different. I still feel the warmth and comfort of the spirit of the Lord. You may say, give it time, give it time. I hear you. I know there are things about membership in the LDS Church I will miss, but I will not miss the spirit of the Holy Ghost because he abides with me still, as does the priesthood authority I received from my father when I was but a lad.

A Few Questions Answered

Now for a couple of silly questions: Will I remove my garments? No. They still mean something to me. Will I attend the three-hour block each week? No. I will probably only attend Sacrament meeting with Carol. I will probably have my own sacrament meeting at home for a while until I can find a group with whom I can participate. Community is important. I seek a new community.

Will I continue to pay tithing? Yes. Carol and I discussed this. It is important to her to pay tithing to the LDS Church. I would prefer to pay tithing to a group where I know it is being used 100% to help the poor. But, and I know this sounds strange, unity with Carol is important to me. This is a difficult thing for Carol. Some women would divorce their husbands for leaving the Church.

I know Carol is hurt and disappointed. She is a fifth-generation Mormon. It means everything to her. She defends it with all the passion of a she bear. I have learned not to cross her. I am grateful she attended some of the lectures. I will make no attempt to entice her to follow me. I will only love her as best I can for a man who knows so little about the romantic needs of a good woman.

Don’t Blame This on Denver Snuffer

To all those who now say, “See, I told you so. I warned you the moment you started reading and writing about those books from Denver Snuffer.” Yes, you’re right. You warned me. And you warned me and then warned me over and over again. Thank you for your loving concern. It did no good. I had a witness of the truth the moment I first read PtHG that night in January of 2012.

So am I now a follower of Denver Snuffer? No. I never was and never will be. I barely know the man. I know his writings and have been edified by them, but I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. Let no man come between you and your God. I suppose if there’s one thing I do feel different already, it is the realization that I now get my marching orders – my daily priorities – only from the Lord.

Previous to this afternoon’s letter of resignation, I was always concerned about, “What would my priesthood leaders think of this?” or “What does the LDS Church say I should be doing with my time?” Maybe that’s my own fault or failing, but it’s has been ingrained in me from a lifetime of hearing it drilled into my soul – follow the prophet. He knows the way. Thanks, but no thanks.

Follow the Prophet – Mantra Gone Too Far

I think I finally realized how bad it was one Sunday in High Priest’s group when I answered a question posed by the instructor about marriage. I simply emphasized something I know we have been taught about temple marriages – that they are conditional upon being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. This is a true doctrine. Always has been and always will be as far as I know.

You should have heard some of the comments I got from some of the brethren. And these were brethren I used to lead as the High Priest Group Leader. Somehow, it turned into a diatribe on the importance of following the prophet, that only he could interpret scripture or pronounce doctrine. It was as if they felt I was personally attacking them and their marriages. I was simply stunned.

It seems as if this has become the last stand for the LDS Church. It is a position of fear – follow the prophet. Please don’t misunderstand. I am not attacking President Monson or whoever is the current president of the LDS Church whenever you read this. I simply thank God he has given me a mind of my own, that I can think for myself and I can ask God directly for guidance in life.

Study the Doctrine – But Not Too Much

I feel as if a great burden has been lifted from my shoulders and another one placed in its stead. I am OK with that. It is the burden of life. I have simply shifted it from being overly concerned with conformity to the orthodox LDS way of thinking and acting, to now being careful to think, believe, act and live in the manner intended by my Heavenly Father. I have shifted my priorities.

Was the LDS Church holding me back? Yes and no. It’s the classic story. We are urged to study the gospel. When we do, we learn things that don’t jive with what is currently being taught or practiced in the LDS Church. We are nothing like the church Joseph organized in 1830. There are too many traditions and beliefs taught in the correlated curriculum that are simply not right.

Agency – It Only Goes So Far

I can’t tell you how many times I wrote about something I had studied and received a response, “You had better get your views in line with the Brethren or you’re going to be in trouble.” I got this over and over, from the least studied and newest member of the Church to Stake Presidents (not my current Stake President) and Bishops who read and comment on my blog. It’s amazing.

Do I hold any animosity toward the church or its leaders? No. I thank them for all they have done for me, especially my local leaders who have loved me, prayed with me, counseled me and tried to get me to conform to the orthodox ways of modern Mormonism. I am certain I have offended some of my brethren in the High Priest Quorum stake-wide with my writings. They told me so.

I understand the concern expressed by associates on the High Council and Stake Presidency in my former stake. They are concerned for their children and grandchildren. I get that. I apologize if you feel I am to blame for some of them leaving the church. Don’t put that at my feet. And for those in my current stake whose children have resigned – that was their decision and theirs alone.

Faulted for Believing Too Much

So what do I believe now? I believe in God. I know the Father lives and loves me. I know my Savior loves me and leads me. I have become more familiar with His voice over the past two years than at any time in my life. The Holy Ghost is real. He is the comforter. I appreciate that. I know God has a plan for my life that is not over. I went through hell last year to understand that.

I believe Joseph was a prophet of God. More than that, I know he was. The knowledge received of the Holy Ghost is burned into our souls. I have known Joseph was a prophet from my youth. My testimony of the Book of Mormon and other scriptures has not changed. We received the Book of Mormon the way Joseph said it came forth – translated by the gift and power of God.

Those Last Fingers of the Testimony Glove

The restoration was real. God wanted to prepare a people for the establishment of Zion. It did not work out in the early church. The higher priesthood was taken from the earth. The authority of the Aaronic remained. I received that authority from my father. I still have it. Resigning from the LDS Church does not take that away. Priesthood is not controlled by any earthly institution.

Obviously I no longer believe the LDS Church has what it claims. It saddens me the LDS Church seeks to enforce beliefs by disciplinary measures. Some of the policies in the Church Handbook are an abomination. They can destroy families. It also saddens me to learn of manipulation from the highest councils of the Church to control the affairs of local members and local leadership.

We have often been taught, and I have taught it myself, “While the people in the Church aren’t perfect, the Church itself is perfect.” I disagree. The LDS Church was divinely instituted but is not now what the Lord will use to establish Zion. Zion was never intended to be established by a large institution. Zion is to be established in small groups where there are no poor among them.

A Few Closing Thoughts

I often hear the complaint from LDS Church members, “They leave the Church but they won’t leave it alone.” I owe so much to the LDS Church. I judged my mother harshly when she walked away from the Church after twenty-five years. I was wrong. I have since asked for and received her forgiveness. She was my age or a little older when she left. I understand now what happened.

Mother loved the gospel. She was a disciple of Christ. She taught me to love the Savior and to love to study. She could not have been more devoted to the Church and a better example for me. She taught Gospel Doctrine and performed more temple ordinances than anyone I have known. Yet in the end, she could not find community within the narrow-mindedness of some members.

Following the traditions of the fathers is a real problem in the LDS Church. It keeps the members from progressing. It’s good to safeguard some things that build family unity but not good to hold onto false beliefs and practices such as an over-reliance on “the Brethren” to tell us what’s what. That’s why my mother left after years of dedicated service. And now I have followed in her path.

God bless you Tim and God bless Carol. We will pray for you . It is clear that a very great many will be following you. It is difficult to be a pioneer but we admire you for your courage and fidelity to the Spirit

I think I understand. I too yearn for something more. When I first came back to the gospel, I was let down a lot. I wished for the days were everything was equal between members. I wished for the outpouring of the spirit described in the early temple, where one person got up and sang in tongues, another got up to translate, and angels appeared frequently, prophets prophesied, healed, and bore testimony against sin bodly, and testified of seeing Christ. I yearned for the spirit to outpour on me and my family. I felt the spirit so strongly I was a changed man. It was difficult when I had to face the fact that most of my ideals about the true church were far from reality. But god told me it was his church.

When I read this stuff, particularly the notes about the last talk, I felt hope, my old feeling and for a true Zion community returned. Could it be real? Could I really give up everything? Would others do the same? Could we really have all things in common?

I remember watching with sadness as my dad withered away. He was a kind man, a much loved doctor. He was loved for his kindness and compassion. Unfortunately he had made some bad decisions in life, and was bad at managing money. He was 200k in debt due to student loans and irs back taxes, and I wished I could help him since I was a child. I remember at one point he lost his job due to some office politics and his 2nd wife left him all happening shortly after I reconverted 6 years ago, My step dad and mom (who are wealthy active members) were on his case about paying child support for my younger brothers. They said it was his legal duty. My dad was so depressed, I found a suicide note he had written. He was really struggling. His problems with money and depression really hurt his spirituality. I wanted someone to reach out to him and help him, to save him. I tried to lift his spirits and help him find hope offering stories of people making it out of difficulty by exercising faith. I begged my other parents to forgive his debt, to let him stop paying for a while so he could get out of debt and they said no. My step dad said making him pay was for his own good and spiritual welfare, that he had to pay to be worthy for the temple. That not making him pay would be enabling him. I wished at that moment Christ was here. I love my step dad and mom and don’t blame them 1 bit for how they acted, but I longed for Zion at that moment. I longed for charity for love for forgiveness and mercy. My dad was dying from 30 years of grief, mistakes, and burdens, I sensed it. But he was a loving man a good kind hearted man. A gentle soul. Most the problems where truly of his own making and people said he needed to climb out on his ownfor his own good, or he’d never learn. I longed to help him, but it was beyond my capacity.

He died about 2 years later broken and cancer ridden. I couldn’t help but feel like everyone around him somehow let him down, like an outpouring of love and charity from a community of Christ might have saved him from that awful fate. I can’t blame anyone for his death, but I saw in my mind eye that in a true Zion community this never would have happened.

I don’t know if Snuffer is a prophet or if this is God’s exact plan unfolding, but I am looking for the fruits of Zion to show up. I think most of the general authorities are good men. Even I hear elder eyering talk for example, I believe he too longs for Zion. I can’t wait for the day we return to the law of consecration, it would be hard to possibly do with out in some areas, but it would be so worth it.

So for now I will sit and watch this unfold for it is by the fruits that I will know if this is truly of God or not.

In Maxwell Anderson’s play about the youthful Joan of Arc, she says, “Every woman gives her life for what she believes. Sometimes people believe in little or nothing, nevertheless, they give up their lives to that little or nothing. One life is all we have, and we live it as we believe in living it, and then it’s gone. But to surrender what you are, and live without belief—that’s more terrible than dying—more terrible than dying young.” (Maxwell Anderson, “Joan of Lorraine,” New York: Dramatists’ Play Service, 1945, act 2, scene 4.)

We’ve got to follow the direction the spirit leads us no matter the cost or loose the blessings instituted for that law as prepared from the foundation of the world. I judge you to be an honest man and I believe you have followed the voice of God in this thing with integrity. It will be on the foundation of such sacrifice that God will carry out the Marvelous Work.

Tim,
My heart ached as I read your post. I think you described the transition accurately. You are removing one burden and replacing it with another perhaps greater weight. The Church is less than it was when thoughtful individuals like you are more comfortable on the outside.

My prayers are that you and Carol will find an accommodation and common ground on the rest of your journey.

I may not be far behind. I am so frustrated this morning. My son’s farewell is today. He wrote a very heartfelt letter to our Bishop asking him to reconsider and to let him have a musical number at his farewell. It was one of the most beautiful letters my son has ever written. I didn’t even know he was writing it. The bishop said he counseled with the stake president and they both decided it would be better to follow the handbook. So the answer was no. We will have some stupid rest hymn at the farewell instead of a beautiful musical number. The thing that is so frustrating is that nobody in my husband’s family is a member of the church and they are coming. Nobody in my family except for my parents are members of the church and they are coming. My son explained this in his letter. And that he felt very strongly that it would bring the spirit for these people who don’t want to be in church and possibly hated the church but we’re coming for him, to feel the spirit. I don’t think I want to belong to a church where the leadership follows the handbook instead of the Spirit. Yhis seems like such a small thing to me. Why do they even care? Why wouldn’t they want a musical number? I can’t even wrap my mind around it. And I keep wondering if this happened as a catalyst for me.

I was a bishop for five years and broke every rule I could in favor of the good people of our ward. We had people who could sing a special number in any ward they wanted to UNLESS God forbid they be related to the speaker during a mission farewell or homecoming. Crap, did I just say those forbidden words? Eh um, at their missionary sacrament meeting. Whatever. A family gives their child to the church for two years and a sister wants to sing a song to honor him and holy crapola you’d think someone was asking to perform a circumcision on a high priest in front of the youth! Forgive my tone, but I for one am tired of these tyrants, these mental leaders, who have not an ounce of the spirit. And while I’m revved up, let me just say a word to all of you who wish to lecture my friend Tim and compare Denver to cultists and koolaidists — is nothing wrong with the church today? Is all well for you? Are you ok with million dollar salaries to the Brethren, and to black credit cards for GAs to use for their kids Harvard tuition? I might be more interested in your arguments and warnings if you could highlight the compelling reasons for which one should now stay. If someone wishes to attend a different ward, they need a boundary waiver from the First Presidency. Wow that makes sense. If someone wishes to baptize their eight year on their birthday or on any other day than the assigned stake baptismal day, the answer is NO, the lords house is a house of order. If someone wishes to take the sacrament with their left hand, there’s a special fifth Sunday lesson of why we should take it with our right. If an inactive father wants to stand in the circle to bless his baby, he is forbidden from even holding the microphone. If someone wears a blue shirt, they are looked over to administer the sacrament. Or to pray. The list goes on ad infinitum of the false traditions and insensitive hypocrisies. And yet, we look down our noses at people like Denver and Tim and go into lecture mode. I get that it’s the easy thing to do. Don’t play with the BB gun or you’ll shoot your eye out. Always ready to give the obvious warning and never willing to stand for anything. I feel for you mjcunningham. It’s getting worse and worse in church. They shoot to churchbroke their new leaders and only advance them when they do. To me, to find examples of koolaid drinkers ye need look no further than to the idiots who aspire to callings such as bishop, sp, mp, ga, etc. Poor sloughs give their life and lose their identity at first, kissing the keymasters, paying their own way so to speak, while the brethren live a form of consecration that rivals the kardashian lifestyle all while feigning a humble lifestyle. I look to these men now for nothing.

Amen. Well said! The only ones’ who fall for the false prophets of the LDS Church are those who don’t know or live what Christ taught, for they are opposites.

It’s amazing how people can say they believe in Christ and think they are righteous while they drive right past the neglected poor and fatherless on their street on their way to church, and then they even give their corrupt LDS leaders their sacred tithing (who use it on themselves & their empire and ignore the poor among them) instead of giving it directly to the poor and fatherless as Christ commanded.

It seems the Church is just a social thing to them and they are not serious about following Christ, or they would see these things and many of the other falsehoods and evils taught and supported by the church, from paid ministry to allowing divorce and remarriage (which Christ said is always adultery in every case) and thus they would have nothing to do with the Church.

I have done my research on GA salaries and have known several GAs on a first name basis. Best estimates: Prophet’s salary (CEO) 800k-1M. First presidency counselors (Exec. COOs) 400k+. Twelve Apostles (Executive VPs) 250k+. ALL, I understand, are given a $1M signing bonus. ALL are “consecrated” a special unlimited credit card for their personal, unquestioned “other” expenses. ALL living expenses are additionally paid. President Hinckley said that they are paid far less than other executives running multi-billion dollar corporations. Indeed they are. Far less, meaning 1M rather than 20M. I’m saddened that I was compelled/taught to show their pictures to my investigators on my mission and boast of how we did not have a paid clergy. Why do they not correct the “misunderstanding” if they know all of us have thus portrayed them? If they in fact only receive a “small humble stipend?” Because sadly they are hiding the truth. We all now know how much Mission Presidents make, why would GAs not benefit more? I asked a good friend recently sent out as a Mission President, if he would be paid. He was a successful doctor and made 300k or more per year. I’ve known him for many years. I had a lot more than he knows to do with his call, as his bishop. I’ve never seen him vacillate so much before as he did as I asked this question. He said he was sworn to secrecy and could not discuss it, but then wanted to assure me he wasn’t “paid”. IT’S TIME FOR THE CHURCH TO STOP HIDING THE TRUTH! I’m an active tithe paying bishop for crying out loud! I’m a returned missionary! I have raised my large family in the Church! I have defended you and sustained you even when it has made no sense! We are now discovering that much of what we defend is false. We are tired of your abuse of power and your wizardry. “Don’t pay any attention to the man behind the curtain!” NO! We will pay attention to the wizards and the soothesayers behind the curtain! Your threats and your misinterpreted adages of “not criticizing the brethren” now fall on our deaf ears. Deaf, because we no longer buy in. I have visited my friend in his mission in the third world, where even the Stake Presidents who work for the church, earn only $900 per month (wealthy by their standards) and live in squalor, without running water in their homes. My friend and his wife are paid well (ALL expenses paid) and live in a luxurious home that a US Ambassador would live in, with armed guards at his gates. This MP is a retired MD. He does not even need the money. All the elderly couples pay their own way and don’t receive an ounce of the glory these MPs enjoy. Btw, these wealthy MPs are told NOT to give money to their struggling missionaries who go home to the slums. “It would set a bad precedent.” Wow, what a scam. The money these MPs and GAs accept in the name of “consecration” buys their loyalty to the Brethren for life. After all, if they can be good Mission Presidents, it’s only a question of time until a comfortable red seat will have their name on it. Quorum of the Seventy (Managers), best educated guess is 75k plus benefits. I’ve heard they always complain when CES’ package is better than theirs. Institute teachers (not a guess), 60-150k per year depending on their “callings” within CES, i.e. Area Director, etc. All food for thought. Denver speaks the truth when he says that our church clergy is amongst the highest paid in the world.

I caveat that my research is based on hearsay from personal conversations and from my observations of those I know who are GAs. Things they’ve said. Houses they live in. Number of houses they own. Cars they drive. Schools their kids attend. Careers they had, etc. BUT, I have never personally seen the Church’s payroll.

I am certainly not looking to shatter someone’s “faith” nor do I wish to condemn these men. I am simply at a point where I believe these details now matter and the truth needs to come out. These men deserve our “support” which to me also includes holding them accountable and letting them know how we feel. There should be no fear of retaliation when expressing one’s legitimate concerns in a church run by common consent. They have made too many recent decisions that effect us all. Many of these decisions they now refuse to take responsibility for.

Wouldn’t it be great if we actually still voted in the church? I’m frankly embarrassed when Elder Uchdorf reads 196 names, with a marvelous spanish, japanese, french or whatever accent (Juan Jose Carlos Cabreros, Jaques Fantine Etienne, Chin Su Suzuki…) and then he says “All in favor, please manifest… Any opposed also manifest… President Monson, it appears the sustaining vote is unanimous!” Really? What is the purpose of that exercise? Does it mean anything to anyone? Ha! At least look up when the vote takes place! Oh and did you happen to see the 3 million people in their living rooms who voted?

I’m determined to show to my sustaining vote by standing up for truth from now on, no matter the cost.

We had a similar experience when our son left. Our missionary asked to have his younger brother and uncle accompany one another, both have spiritual music talents that fill a room with the presence of angles. He was denied based on the handbook. Yet as the previous bishops son and well connected stake families daughter left on missions only a couple months later, the handbook was set aside and family musical numbers were allowed. Hmmmmm – I don’t know what to do yet, but I do not follow man.

I’m sorrowful for you and Carol. I hope your marriage can survive. I hope you will find the path you’ve chosen to some how be the means of finding your way back to the Lord’s authorized church.

By resigning you are giving up everything, and in return you have become a disciple of Denver Snuffer. You say Denver has no intention of starting a church.

I think Denver has started a church and you just joined it. It may not be an organized church with buildings and budgets, but it does have an “Articles of Faith” that you believe in. In that sense, Denver started a church and you are an early convert.

In the past, there have been many off shoots of the Mormon church. I hope you will take the time to study them. If you do, you will see a pattern. That pattern will be important for you and Carol. You will see it unfold before your very eyes as the days, weeks, months, years, and decades come and go.

I hope you continue to blog and will relate the details of your new found “faith”.

I don’t wish you any anything but the best. I’m very disappointed but feel a friendship and bond with you and Carol even though we havenever met in person.

Yes, look at the Harmston affair and you will see almost a lockstep development here between Snuffer & Harmston’s group. My prophecy: 1. Tim’s marriage breaks apart 2. He moves closer to Utah to join a “community.” 3. Snuffer rachets up the organization of the “community.” 4. Snuffer becomes a leader, not that he wants too, but if the Lord commands it, what else can he do? 5. Snuffer becomes Prophet, because every group needs a leader after all 6. Let the Prophecy begin: if they are to build Zion, it must begin there.

Karl: I spent a lot of time watching Jim Harmston. I agree with your assessment that he blew it. Your prophecy is appreciated. I take it seriously – as a warning from a friend. My marriage is critical to me. I will do all in my power to keep it intact. I would appreciate your prayers and best wishes for Carol and me that we can work out differences in beliefs.

Also, there are already communities being formed all over. I am aware of one just a few hours away. I’m thinking I would like to be baptized in the Pacific Ocean because I was born close to the ocean and it has been a big part of my life, especially growing up as a child. If I have to be my own community for awhile, so be it. I have the priesthood. I can administer the sacrament.

Karl,
You may want to take a look at your own life closely to see what happens, now that you have proclaimed a “prophecy” about someone else’s.

“And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”

It is a great and yet terrible day, for so few know where to look or know how to discern. Did Harmston speak by the power of the Holy Ghost? Did that message carry to the hearts of the children of men? Did he deliver a stream of conscious thought of nearly 30 hours, that even my 13 year son calls “interesting”? Did he write more than 15 works that people who have read testify have been brought unto Christ? I can tell you, having read Snuffer’s works, having attended his lectures, having prayed about his message, he’s no Harmston. I believe him to be a true witness. By their works ye shall know them. I know Denver and I know his works. I believe them to be of God. Tim, way to go. Lot’s of courage shown. Don’t be distracted. Faith comes as a gift to those willing to take that step into the darkness. You have done so while many others sit idly by as observers and make so called prophesies. I feel for those who do. May God soften your hearts and help you realize that Snuffer has been sent.

A quote from our old friend Log, comes to mind.
What manner of fool would I have to be to blame or accuse others for not possessing what I, myself, do not possess! What manner of fool I would have to be to blame or accuse others for not repenting and working righteousness, when by blaming and accusing I would show myself to be a hypocrite, a pretender to the faith of Christ! For if I had faith as a mustard seed, I could move mountains!

And what manner of fool I would be to imagine the Church stood in my way as I strive to follow the precepts of Christ! What manner of fool I would be to suppose that because the leadership does X, Y, or Z, that that in any way had any effect on whether I, with honor and exactness, obeyed the Savior’s teachings!
The principle upon which the atonement works is that only accusers will be accused and only condemners will be condemned. The atonement can remove any and all accusers – leaving a sinner, sitting alone with Jesus and forgiven.

Not changing the link. It brightened my day and made me laugh. It takes you to “Pentecostal Power Ministries.” Yee-hah! God bless you Jared. I love you my friend and will always cherish our conversations.

I felt the Spirit reading this post. You did the right thing. Do not let your mind doubt that your relationship with God is still in tact. Some people I have seen leave the church and they begin to worry that they have lost the spirit and then they worry so much that they actually do lose the spirit.
Keep the faith. satan will try to convince you over and over again that you have made the wrong choice by leaving the church. Trust the moments of the Holy Ghost that you know to be true. You have opened up a new chapter of spirituality and the adversary will seek everything to keep you from progressing.
I resigned myself some time ago after praying and receiving direction to do. This for me was more about what I had learned were some falsehoods being taught by the church. You have almost made the equivalent choice of walking out of the garden and now you can be like Adam and learn from God and rely only on God to teach you. This can be trying and lonely but I know that you can become closer to God than ever before.
May The Lord bless you and your wife who worship a bit differently. I would just suggest to speak of things you both can find edification in and attempt to not contend in anything. Love is much more important than being right. God bless

Tim,
You and your wonderful wife are in my prayers. I am honored to call a man such as yourself, who has the courage to follow his heart, the integrity and character to respect the church still, and the wisdom and gentleness to meekly continue as a loving husband, my friend.

And now, may the peace of God rest upon you, and upon your houses and lands, and upon your flocks and herds, and all that you possess, your women and your children, according to your faith and good works, from this time forth and forever. And thus I have spoken. Amen.

One more experience I wanted to share that is applicable. A couple of days after I resigned from the church I was attacked by people saying I had lost my family and could no longer have an eternal marriage etc. You will no doubt hear such things.

I was praying that night and the Holy Ghost came upon me very powerfully and promised me that I would be with my wife forever. I was not a member of any church at the time.

The reason people got uncomfortable when you brought up being sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise is quite simple. You can ask anyone in the church that has been married in the temple if they were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise sometime afterward. You will only get strange looks back.

People will either argue that they were sealed during the ordinance, which is an idea that has crept into the church but isn’t true, or they will say that is something we won’t feel and experience but we just endure to the end and that is it.
The only other argument would have something to do with the 2nd anointing which I have learned by the spirit is nonsense. The 2nd anointing is given to people who have climbed church ladders and it is their way of feeling higher and more spiritual and they are even fooled into thinking their exaltation is made sure by this false ordinance.

So to be short. People in the church know deep down that their marriage has not been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise so to bring it up questions the idea that they really are in an eternal marriage. Has anyone really been “sealed” to their spouse in an LDS temple?

My position is joseph smith was a prophet inasmuch as he spoke the truth from God and instituted what God asked him to institute. I know some of the things he was either purported to have taught, or that in actuality he did teach were false. I know this by the Spirit. Just like Denver snuffer is a prophet, joseph was, both are susceptible to teach falsehoods from time to time and are prone to human error.

How can anyone be sad if you are following what the Spirit has told you? “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you”. Hard things are not always bad things. The glue that cements the culture in LDS is powerful and has long fingers. It is appropriate to mourn. It is as death is; leaving one realm for another. The hardest thing anyone mentions in NDE books is the spirit being separated from the body or re-entering the body. So it is with this departure in a sense.

I liken it to being addicted to heroine. There are many ways to get away from it: cold turkey (leaving completely everything); methodone (being connected to a lesser degree but still wanting what we have been used to). All in all, we do what we can do, nothing more.

I can’t or won’t give advice for Carol and you; not my place. Nor will I tell you what you should have done. You will have to follow your path as the spirit dictates. We all know you come from love. That is a precious commodity. God bless you in your journey.

I want to add my expressions of condolences and sympathy to those that have already been expressed here over this. It’s a sad thing to contemplate what all this means, in contrast to the happy days before the wickedness of dissent began to gain so much momentum in the Church.

Back in the day, nobody in my circles had even heard of Gerald and Sandra Tanner, let alone anticipated a Denver Snuffer, who was yet to come.

However, we did talk about putting on the whole armor of God, not knowing that the helmet of salvation would be needed sooner than later, and that the need for the shield of faith, with which to quench the fiery darts of the adversary, was soon to be upon us.

Nevertheless, that day has arrived. I feel sorrow for the loss of so many good saints like yourself, in this battle, who have been persuaded to break solemn covenants, made in the most sacred of places, because they themselves didn’t actually put on the whole armor of God, as they so often admonished the youth to do,

I can see the fallacy of the arguments you have chosen to defend, but I can’t see into your heart and I have no way of knowing what you have experienced. Yet, this much I do know: If every saint followed your chosen path, the work that the Father promised to do, according to the words of the Savior, in the Book of Mormon, would grind to a halt.

Indeed, if it had started back in the days of BY, the earth would never be flooded with the truth, by these local communities and scripture study groups, seeking to save themselves through a truer and deeper understanding of the gospel, according to DS.

If this dissent movement would have begun in the days of BY, then clearly, the temples would not have been built by them, nor staffed by them, which would mean that there would not be any bringing to pass of the scripture that says that Lebanon would become a fruitful field and the fruitful field would be esteemed as a forest.

To be sure, the deaf would not now be hearing the words of the book, and the blind would not now be seeing out of obscurity and out of darkness, therefore the meek would not now be increasing their joy in the Lord, nor would the poor among men now be rejoicing in the Holy One of Israel, because of the words of the book, which was sealed.

And most of all, Tim, it is clear that the face of Jacob would still turn pale, because he would not yet be able to see his children, the work of the Lord’s hands, in the midst of him, where they would sanctify his name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and would fear the God of Israel.

Also, he would not see that they who erred in spirit had come to understanding, and they who murmured had learned doctrine. In fact, there is no doubt in my mind that, if there were no Church of Jesus Christ, for the Latter-Day Saints, but only a loose coalition of scripture study communities for them to associate in, then the words of the Lord in the Book of Mormon, which presumably they would be studying, if they could somehow procure a copy, which say that he would establish his Church among them, if they would not harden their hearts, would have been a subject of great interest to them.

Thankfully, however, and praise be to God, this is not our situation today, because there were enough Gentiles in Joseph’s day, who did not harden their hearts, but received the fullness of the gospel with gladness, and the Lord kept his word and established his Church among this people, so that those of us in later generations could build upon the foundation he laid through the faith, diligence and inspiring sacrifices of those pioneering generations.

But you have abandoned it all, because of the misguided teachings of a deceiver. Unfortunately, many other have left before you, and will yet follow after you, to the great sorrow of those whom you have left behind to carry on without you.

It is sad, so sad. My condolences to your wife Carol and your family, for their loss.

dbundy,
How can you offer condolences to Carol and Tim’s family? How do you know that the path you are on is the one and only true path and that Tim’s is not? I don’t know you from anybody on earth but it is not my place to judge you for your path, nor you mine. I love you, I love Tim, I love the person I have not yet met. This is the fundamental teaching of Christ…love God and love your fellow man. Loving God naturally leads your heart to loving your fellow man and thereby losing this natural tendency to judge each other. Do I judge? You betchya! Does the Spirit tell me to stop every time I open my mouth in judgement? You betchya! Am I learning to judge less? Yes. I repent every day for my judgement of others because I know it is wrong. Every soul who comes to this earth is given the light of Christ so that we might know the way. What is the way? The way is whatever the Holy Spirit tells you that it is. Period. Why is this such a hard concept for us to grasp and accept as truth? There is nobody between me and the Lord. Do I listen to servants? Yes. Do I follow those servants? No. I listen to their words, present my opinion and findings to the Lord and ask for clarification and ratification of the truth. I know what the voice of the Lord sounds like to me. I know when the Holy Spirit is directing me. It is often followed by one of those “aha!” moments which fortifies my desire to heed the Holy Spirit even more. My personal path is this: being married to a woman that does not want to discuss the history of the LDS Church or the priestcraft that now permeates that organization. Do I abandon her? No. She has not been unfaithful to me. I try to persuade with gentleness, meekness and love unfeigned. But my wife’s answer is, “I know the truth and I don’t want to hear any more from you.” Ok, so be it. There is a lesson for me to learn from this experience and I am still seeking that answer. The fact of the matter is this: there is only one way back to the Father and it is through Jesus Christ. Do you believe the most spiritually connected persons of history are to be mourned because they weren’t Mormon? No, they should not be mourned. Some of them are probably more connected to God than you or I will ever be and I’m sure there is a place for them with the Lord. dbundy, I do not mourn you for your path but am glad that you seek the Lord in your way. “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

Of course, no scripture is of private interpretation. You feel very comfortable embracing the “orthodox” interpretations of these scriptures, apparently. Your argument, however, is built upon sand. You wrote:

“Indeed, if it had started back in the days of BY, the earth would never be flooded with the truth, by these local communities and scripture study groups, seeking to save themselves through a truer and deeper understanding of the gospel, according to DS.”

Ironically, the modern LDS Church (as detailed by Daymon Smith in his multi-volume “A Cultural History of the Book of Mormon”) was built on the backs of precisely that: local communities and scripture study groups which were “co-opted” by the leaders of the LDS Church, compelling them to “submit to authority”, keep records, build chapels, etc. Until BY’s day, the Church hadn’t built a single chapel.

You apparently didn’t know that. The Church was growing gangbusters before BY. Now it’s growth is stagnant, even declining. (How many 109 year olds can the Church keep on its roll of “inactives” to prop up the total membership numbers of the Church?)

The vast majority of the LDS haven’t stepped foot in a chapel in years, if not decades. Only a fraction of those who actually come to Church pay tithing. And much of the interest syphoned off of the bank accounts holding those funds goes to non-Church-related enterprises.

As I recall, in the parable of the talents, the Master condemned him who buried his talent rather than give it to the userers. He demanded His money back with interest. (Obviously, the Master considered the interest to be His, as well.) The leaders of the LDS Church claim this interest is not tithing money, per se, and thus can be used to build shopping malls, maintain high-end hunting preserves and even send GA’s kids to Harvard. Wow. Must be nice to be able to “tap in” to those kinds of resources. I know struggling single moms who would love to be able to whip out the Church credit card and buy whatever they truly need. You see no problem with this?

If you don’t, I won’t judge you. I love the LDS Church. But I am also painfully cognizant of its manifold shortcomings, many of which preclude its members from coming unto Christ and establishing Zion.

The Lord has now moved away from the Latter-day Saint church. He is moving to preserve the restoration that was begun with Joseph Smith, but foundered. No one is asking you, or anyone else, to abandon any truth you now have.

Why wouldn’t I be interested in this real life drama? I feel sorry for Tim’s family and that of the others who are being deceived. Can you imagine the grief that Carol wakes up to each day? Her life has been turned upside down, because her husband was not able to discern the errors in DS’s understanding.

I read the 10th lecture, and some of the others. I can see why Tim and others have fallen for DS’s claims, but he is so mistaken in his understanding of the scriptures that it belies the veracity of his claims.

If I thought it would do any good, I would walk Tim and anyone else that might be interested through the details, but there is little hope their eyes can be opened at this point.

Unfortunately, all I can do is offer the victims my condolances for their loss. Sigh.

Care to walk us through the “errors” you gleaned by skimming a talk or two of Denver? Most of us have read all of his posts, read or listened to all of his talks, and have read many of his books. At the very least, one would presume that doing so would be necessary to understand his arguments. (He declares as much on his blog.)

Rather than make ad hominem attacks, why not address the issues directly? Sincere seekers of truth will listen, if you have something to offer.

I would be glad to. There’s no need to address the whole corpus. The tenth lecture will suffice. The only problem I see is this venue. It is too restrictive, but I’ll be happy to start things off by initially addressing lecture 10 on my own blog, in a new entry dedicated to the topic.

I admire that you are talking full responsibility for this decision and not laying it upon the shoulders of sixteen men.

I have decided, for myself to stay in the body of the Saints. I’m in the process of helping my daughter come back to the basics of the gospel…. the restoration and the Book of Mormon. It would not be good for me to jump ship right now.

I will work within the frame of of the Church for the time being and spread the news of what I have learned. Yesterday I had a wonderful conversation with five ladies on following Christ and listening to the brethren as they council and then confirm their words. They responded to the message very well. I could tell they were thinking. (I’m learning to temper my zeal so I don’t push others away from the message.)

There is no doubt the organization is in trouble and it is possible we will begin to see more and more flaws revealed as times goes on. The Mall and hunting reserves have made many of the saints uncomfortable and as time unfolds the saints may require more accountability. We will see.

We know it’s important that the members to cling to the gospel and not put so much faith in the organization. We also know that in the last days it will be critical to listen to the spirit. There is no doubt things will be changing and if one’s feet are not firmly planted in Christ and his gospel, folks will be left floundering.

At this time, I don’t want to isolate myself into a position that I cannot effectively serve those around me. I love my sisters.

I’m have buried myself in the scriptures with Denver’s admonishment to read them like a “little child” with no previous paradigm attached and I will see the true gospel unfold. I’m enjoying that journey and I’m seeing things I have never seen before.

I respect your decision, independent of my own decision. I will keep an open mind and follow the Lord’s counsel for me at this time.

I hope you will continue to post as I will be following this blog. I have so enjoyed the comments and feel a spirit of community right here.

While I salute you for leaving a corrupt church, I would caution you against ‘listening to the Spirit’ and instead only go by what Christ taught in the 4 Gospels of the NT.

One of the greatest falsehoods taught by the LDS Church and Book of Mormon (which has too many errors to be of God, but appears to be a product of Joseph Smith) is to pray and get confirmation from the Spirit or God about the truthfulness of anything or anyone. This is what most false prophets tell their people, for they know it’s the easiest way to deceive people, for most will pray and attribute any good feelings or warm fuzzies as confirmation of the person or church or precept. And those who don’t get confirmations will blame it on themselves as not being righteous enough.

Now I believe in the Holy Spirit and that he is a teacher of truth, but it is not a sure way to judge or discern truth from error, because mortals cannot always tell the difference between true and false revelation or true and false visions or even between a true or false Christ/God should one appear to us. Satan can easily deceive everyone into thinking they have been visited by God when it was just Satan as an angel of light and power. As we see happening all around us with people who don’t keep Christ’s commandments yet profess to have been visited by him and promised eternal life.

Whereas Christ actually taught us to prove all things by people’s actions, their fruit, meaning whether or not they kept his commandments and had Christlike love or not. That is the way to know if someone is really a true disciple or church of Christ, not by the Spirit, for we can be easily deceived to think God is inspiring or confirming something to us when it’s actually the Adversary.

We see prophet after so-called prophet throughout history and the Bible falling for false revelation from Satan, while thinking and claiming it was from God as most always think. Few if anyone ever thinks their revelation is coming from the Adversary, for it usually sounds and feels so good, few ever remember that Satan can answer our prayers too, and do miracles, healings, and give us any amount of warm fuzzies needed to make us think God is leading us.

Christ is our only sure foundation to prove all things and persons and precepts. Only those who truly keep his commandments and only precepts that are in harmony with Christ’s commandments should be accepted as true, which leaves few if anyone worthy to trust today.

But I am glad you value your marriage and I know that if you put your wife 1st above all else as Christ taught and showed, and love and serve her needs, desires & feelings before your own, and seek to make her happy and comfortable and secure, then in time she will come to trust in your new views and be more apt to listen to your way of thinking and see how the Church is not following Christ.

For if Christ taught anything he taught the great vital importance of marriage & having pure true love for our spouse and that nothing can destroy that union, no matter how many laws or decrees man may come up with. Christ taught that there is no such thing as divorce and remarriage, (or polygamy) he said it’s always adultery, except in the case of engaged people who find one had committed fornication, then he allowed engaged people to give a bill of divorce and not follow through with the marriage, as was the custom to do in Christ’s day.

Don’t listen to the spirit, only to words of men? The church was created in the first place to dispel this notion. This brings to mind a certain scripture; 2 Timothy warns of “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” This whole attitude of the infallibility of men was effectively blasted by the scripture. The whole reference can be found in 2 Timothy 3.

I said we should listen only to the words of God/Christ. they are not the words of men, despite that men passed them down to us. They are all anyone has to prove truth from error in this world, whether it comes by man or spirit. For we can’t just assume our revelation or anyone else’s revelation who waltzes into town claiming to be a prophet comes from God either. We must prove any revelation or feelings from the or a spirit to be true before we trust it, and the only way to judge it is to compare it against something, and that something is Christ’s words.

If your or anyone else’s revelation is contrary to what Christ taught you or they are welcome to believe it but it can’t be claimed that it came from God, at least not the Christian God.

The LDS Church is based upon the ‘words of men’, very fallible men/prophets who didn’t or don’t even follow Christ, but who preach and practice contrary to God & Christ.

Anyone can live the words of Christ and apply them to history and to our own lives to prove if they are true or not. They have proven the test of time to be the only principles that can create lasting peaceful free and happy societies. All other principles eventually fail and destroy societies, families and people.

If we discount or reject the words of Christ then anything goes and no one can claim truth and everyone will preach a different religion but all will claim if came to them through the Spirit from God, as we see even in the church, even with leaders, all professing contrary beliefs, even contrary to Christ, supposedly learned from ‘the Spirit’.

Anyone can say the Spirit or God told them something, but how does one prove it didn’t come from the Adversary instead? You must not realize how easy everyone is deceived by false revelation and false Christ’s appearing to them, while being so sure they have been visited and taught by the real God or Christ.

That scripture you sited condemns the LDS Church as much as anyone, for they have a form of Godliness but deny Christ and the power & truth of his teachings as they ignore and transgress his laws.

They can claim the truth all they want, but they can’t claim to be the Church of Christ and have any true follower of Christ believe them, for the church leaders preach and practice opposite Christ’s recorded commandments.

Satan wants us to believe that he can’t deceive us by false revelation, that we will almost always think comes from God,

Even Joseph Smith (and many LDS Presidents) understood that they and we must always compare our revelation to what Christ said to make sure it’s true, before we believe it really came from God. They taught that if our revelation or anyone else’s is contrary to Christ’s then it proves it’s wrong. So even the Church teaches this but of course doesn’t follow it.

Tim I will not congradulate you on leaving the church. What’s sad to me is that people would, I do believe that the church isn’t perfect otherwise would Christ need to return and establish His Goverment upon the earth. However I do believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds the keys to Priesthood, the ordinances, and covenants necessary for salvation and you will not find that outside of the Church. People need not make excuses for leaving the church blaming on the way members think, the rules of the church, the requirements of the church, the way that they have been treated. The church isn’t perfect and members aren’t perfect. I hope people will just own there decision don’t put the blame on anyone but themselves, everyone makes mistakes everyone misinetrepts things from the scriptures, everyone makes judgment, everyone talks ill of another, if you haven’t you shouldn’t be here anyone more. Well Tim I hope you return to activity in the church but that will be up to you. You’re not going to find what you’re looking for outside of Christ’s church. Like is said in the Book of Mormon there is but one Church of Jesus Christ, it’s not in a persons heart it is an organization. His Church holds all that is necessary for Eternal life and exaltation.

I am glad you made that point. Let me be quite open with you. The Holy Ghost has plainly told me that the LDS church is a false church and has joined the great and abominable church.
It has more truth than almost any other organization but it also teaches falsehoods. This is me owning that God led me out of the LDS church.

Well Tim, I will be honest with you, I’m very happy and excited for you and yours. I can only advocate following the Gospel of Christ. But I do know this must and will be hard to. Bless you and your family to be strong and of good cheer. Dave..

What’s sad to me is when people join or stay in the Church, and aren’t willing to prove all things by studying our church history and comparing people, practices and precepts to what Christ really taught.

When you do that you find that the Church is not a church or Christ or teaching his Gospel, but completely the opposite, though they pad their falsehoods with many true things as false prophets always do.

I believe the only reason you believe as you do is because of what you have been told and believed during your life by Church leaders, who of course would teach you those things. It doesn’t seem you have gone to the source, Christ, and studied his words, or if you have it doesn’t seem like you believe in them.

I finally awoke to all the evils the Church is preaching and practicing, past & present, and I have finally found Christ, ‘outside’ the Church. For inside it’s too cluttered by falsehoods to understand what Christ really taught. We have to step out of the forest to see the trees.

I encourage you to prove all things, and I don’t mean by warm fuzzies that can easily deceive us like they did even the best of prophets, but prove all things and persons by the way Christ said, to see if those who claim to be prophets are really teaching & keeping his commandments and have Christlike love.

Which method proves they aren’t, or they wouldn’t ignore and neglect the poor and the fatherless the way they do, nor would they allow any divorce and remarriage (adultery), for those were 2 of Christ’s main messages and the main reason for religion or nothing else matters or will help much if marriages fail and the poor are neglected because leaders pocket tithing themselves or use the money on other things instead of the poor.

Nothing comes before the poor & fatherless. No a church building, temple, missionaries, and never paid ministry like the LDS Church has. No church should have any money in it’s coffers for long, 100% of it should quickly be given out to the poor and fatherless as Christ commanded.

Any church who teaches it’s people to give their sacred tithing to falllible church leaders and not directly to the poor, is not following Christ and is just asking for corruption in the leaders, which is why we see it today.

Don’t you think all churches do this? Bring all the tithes into the storehouse is correct, but centralzed church authority has a tendancy to go one way. Leaving the Spirit out of the discussion is pure nonsense and fallacies of men seeking for the scriptures unto private interpretation without it. Showing love for the process of finding Christ is what must be done, not congratulations nor felacious self aggrandizing attempt of feeling sorry. Come on people, let’s uplift and inspire here using the tools the scriptures and the inspired men of ancient days have given us.

All any of us have is just ‘private interpretation’. We all are left to ourselves to interpret not only the scriptures but also any revelation we or others may receive. And our rewards in heaven will be determined by if we interpreted correct or not. No one can do it for us.

If we are truly righteous and keeping Christ’s commandments and have Christlike pure love then we will most likely interpret scripture and personal revelation correctly and will know if it truly comes from God, for we will understand Christ’s teachings cause we live them.

But if we don’t really keep Christ’s commandments and don’t have pure love, then we will easily be deceived to think we are righteous and being led by God or true prophets when we really aren’t.

And yes, it seems all churches do tell their members to give their tithes to church leaders, but true Christians who understand Christ’s teachings would follow Christ and give their money directly to the poor as he told us too, and not follow some old Bible teaching that came from fallible men and trust our sacred tithing to fallible men.

For few if any church leaders have ever proven to be trustworthy enough to distribute the money to the poor as Christ would want or as the givers would do themselves, as we see happening in the LDS Church where leaders neglect the poor and use the money on other things and even pocket & live high on the money meant for the widows and fatherless.

That is compassionate of you, Tim, to resign rather than heap coals of condemnation upon the heads of those who would be compelled to excommunicate you. I know this has been a heart-wrenching, dreadful decision for you: a decision I am certain you did not want to make.

But what choice did you have? Deny the truth? Reject Christ? Or “follow the prophet”?

14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. (Jeremiah 3:14-15)

Good one will. There is a point to be made how the gospel will be spread throughout the world though without a distribution system. It has been brought up and is food for thought. However individually it is a reasonable path and journey each of us must take. I think focus on the only doctrine Nephi expounded and Joseph concurring was the everlasting covenant of baptism and seeking not only for the Holy Ghost but for fire and to speak with the tongue of angels. It can be had by all. Hopefully the preparatory gospel being spread will prepare a people ready for these events. And the communities will gather the faith necessary to bring about more universal plans of the Savior.

I know you have experience in this and are credible. Thanks for your thoughts.

I am intrigued by your words about the preparatory gospel being spread now to prepare for things to come.
This sounds like you are talking about the aaronic priesthood. Do you believe joseph smith was commissioned to anything higher than the preparatory gospel? I have studied joseph smiths words on the spirit of Elias vs elijah and the messiah. I have been told by the Spirit clearly that joseph was ordained under the hand of John the Baptist and blessed with the spirit of Elias. Is this where it ended in your opinion?

Tim,
Last night I was returning home after spending 2 days with my sister and her children (she is divorced and I wanted to do something for her and her children). On the 3 hour drive there I had an amazing discussion with the Lord and He reaffirmed the Doctrine of Christ and His intent for me to share my experiences with my sister.

Friday night after pitching a tent in the back yard, cooking a tin foil dinner on a campfire, cuddling and reading a book and putting the kids down to sleep (amazingly they fell right to sleep), my sister and I went into the house and talked for 3 hours. The spirit testified of the truth and we were both edified until I mentioned a couple of the recent concerns that I have had about the corporate church. Immediately the spirit of edification was gone. We spent the next hour with her trying to convince me that I was being deceived, maybe I wanted things too badly and was opening myself up to false revelation by the adversary. Logic and not scripture was used to convince me of my peril even though I used scripture and temple to try to argue my positions.

The next day we fished and hiked together and that night I packed to leave. The youngest begged to go with me and made me promise to come back and baptize her soon (she is 8 but my sister is having her wait until her inactive father can perform the ordinance). As I drove the 3 hours home I prayed. The Lord came as always and we spoke. He answered all of my sister’s questions to me (why had I not been able to answer them to her the night before?). He confirmed my calling and election. He told me what I must blog about. He confirmed that over time I would be asked to do what you have done. I was filled with peace. All of this occurred through the veil.

On the drive home I was invited to stayed home from church on Sunday and have my own personal sacrament meeting. I did, with prayer, hymns and the sacrament of bread and pure grape juice.

I then opened my email and saw your most recent post. To me it is amazing that I am being led independent of you, and am having very similar experiences and your testimony verifies mine. I am still laboring in the spirit to know what God has for me to do. I am being lead multiple times (and always have His spirit to be with them) throughout each day. In the last 2 years there has been an exponential growth curve for me and it continues. It is sweet and most desirable above all else. I like you only desire to become of one mind and one will with my God. He will sustain and lead all who continue to listen and do.

I look forward to the day when we will have the opportunity to meet as brothers in Christ. Keep up the faith and nothing can overcome.

I love you my friend. My personal sacrament service today in my home was filled with a sweet and comforting spirit. I had to pause during the words as I was overwhelmed with the sense of the presence of the Lord. I only wish I had been able to share it with others. In time, I am told … in time.

I am going to be baptized next Sunday morning, Sep 21st, in the Pacific Ocean. I need to scout out a location. An authorized and certified friend is coming down from Utah to perform the ordinance. I think I’d like to contact you privately about coming down to Oceanside. I’m thinking we need witnesses. Otherwise, it would just be me and my priesthood-holding friend. What do you think?

When you say an authorized and certified friend is performing the ordinance, what exactly do you mean by that? Also, I wrote a blog post today about the wording “having been commissioned” verses “having authority” in the ordinance. I am curious to hear your opinion on whether or not the wording matters.

Will, it’s looking like the location will probably be Solana Beach. That should be less than an hour from your home. I’d love to have you there. In fact, everyone’s invited. I’m going write a new post by Wednesday going over the doctrine, why I’m doing this and what it means to me.

You mention your blog. Do you have a link? I would like to read your words.

I have have been curious about the words of the baptismal prayer. 3rd Nephi says “Authority” and the D&C says “Commissioned.”

If you are given the authority by Christ himself… it would be authority (noun: power, right, license) other wise…if the authorization came though some other person or a line of authority, it would be it would be called “commissioned.” (verb: enlisted, recruited)

I trust that the Prophet of the Restoration would certainly know what he was doing when the change was made in the D&C.

If this understanding is correct… why would Denver suggest using the original words “Authority.”

If there is condemnation to be heaped due to good Saints leaving the church, it will ultimately be heaped upon those shepherds who for many decades have fed themselves and clothed themselves from the wool they have sheared from their sheep while slighting His sheep.
As Ezekiel (chap. 34) foretold, the Savior Himself will find and feed His sheep in the last days because of those miscreant shepherds, and He will lead those sheep to the hills of Zions.
We live in that day.
I cannot let the insult to the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith mentioned above go by without comment. The Lord Himself showed me the truth of the Book of Mormon and He showed me that Joseph was, and is, His Prophet for this dispensation. That same Spirit testifies to me that Denver Snuffer is a true Prophet of the Lord. I urge those who speak ill of those men to beware of “evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed.”
Bless you brother Malone for your courage and integrity.
JRU

I myself am not ready to formally let go of the organization. There is still work to be done, and can more effectively be done from the inside. If they want to cast me out, that is their prerogative. I can’t fault you for your decision, but the timing has bad optics.

Acts 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men. Do not fear what others say or do. If you are following our Father, the naysayers can only help you. At times it takes drastic action to get peoples attention, and wake them out of their slumber. If only one of Father’s children gets help from this, your joy will be full.

Just to be clear: The disciplinary council was pretty much a done deal. The Bishop’s words couldn’t have been clearer. He said, “You are placed on informal probation for apostasy. The handbook requires a mandatory council be held eventually if you don’t repent. The only outcomes possible are disfellowshipment or excommunication.”

Having served on a high council and in a dozen bishoprics, I had my fill of disciplinary councils. What a waste of time for someone like me who is NOT going to change his views, especially since they have come through years of study and confirmed in prayer over and over again. The timing for me was from the Lord, prompted three times this week.

What I see is that when someone says they are propmted by the Spirit, then if it fits their paradigm then it is ok, but if it is outside their paradigm, it isn’t ok. So many people cy lo here and lo theresaying the Spirit told them this and the spirit told them that. People will move in the direction they want to go. If they don’t want to go, they won’t. If it goes against the scriptures, it is not valid period. What prompted those Nephites to go to the temple at Bountiful to witness the Savior? Some I suppose was that it was Harvest time and they go annually…but they were faithful to that and they were blessed. What brought folloers to Alma, who was very wicked as a priest of Noah, and others didn’t? What prompted people to go after Jim Harmston. He started out questioning the movings of the corporate establishment? What started out as necessary turned bad; not that it wasn’t warranted, it was because he usurped power when it wasn’t Godly inspired. Were the people who followed him worse off because they were searching for more? You decide. I can’t judge them. Men move about, make decisions and go through life making errors and hard choices.

Now that we have the Book of Commandments and the Pearl of Great Price, Josephs teachings, and the Book of Mormon, it all leads to the everlasting covenant, which has been broken. This is the only doctrine of the Father. That should be our focus. That we are tied to a large organization to give creedance to us or not is superfluous. We must focus on the covenant of baptism and BFHG and seek the scriptures for our nourishment. It will be OK in the end. Your charitable behavior is what is important while doing the Lord’s will. That defines what and who you are, not what you belong to. The Lord is in control. Faith in him and him only will grant you peace.

My friends are under investigation, and have been summoned to see the bishop and sp. No formal court yet, but that is just a matter of time. There has been such powerful testimony born, as is exampled in the Book of Mormon, yet those without the ears to hear could not hear.

They are so far leaving me alone, because for the most part I have been silent, just contemplating for the time being. What I have fear of in speaking to people is that they will also turn away from the gospel, not just the Church™. I have tried to explain the differences between the gospel and the Church™, while teaching elders quorum, and have been reprimanded. People get very upset when you don’t teach according to their traditions!

However, as I said, I will leave it to those in authority to neutralize their priesthood. I won’t leave quietly. The machines are in motion, so it is just a matter of time.

Typically though I don’t respond to them, as I find them more and more inconsequential. They are not my priesthood leaders, they are local managers. I answer to God, not men. I will however, allow them to nullify their priesthood if that is what they wish.

I know the comment was awhile back, but I’m getting tired of seeing DS compared to Jim Harmston. Years ago, before he started his church, I was invited to attend a part of one of his “models” by a friend. Someone else was presenting, Jim was sitting a few rows in front of me, his wife was on his right, head down and very quiet, and Jim was flirting and touching or tickling a young lady to his left. She looked to be late teens or early twenties. I remember being disgusted. When Jim spoke though, he had a very pious/religious demeanor. One would think him to be a very good man if all you did was listen to him lecture. I read later one of his BYU professors warning a colleague, “watch out for that guy, he’s going to start a church someday”. My wife and I later met an older couple that got involved with his church, and they said it turned into sort of a wife-swapping fest (their words, not mine). Jim was in the habit of exing men with pretty wives then marrying them himself. To me comparing Denver to Harmston is ludicrous and very unfair.

I’ve observed since my mission days that whereas most of us (unfortunately me included), however sincere or devoted we may be, still seem to be somewhat concerned with how we look or sound, occasionally I’d hear or meet someone who seemed to care nothing for themselves, only on the message or the person they were serving. I always saw in those that they truly gave God the glory, caring nothing for self. I always greatly admired them. President Eyring seems of this sort to me, and I love to listen to him. I’ve never met Denver, but from the time I first started reading his words I sensed in him a soul of this sort. It’s always been a pleasure and a relief to learn from him.

I don’t know if this is it, if the declarations of his tenth talk are what they sound to be, though I hope to know soon. I can say if they are, then I am grateful beyond the ability of words to tell, but if not I still wait for the Lord.

I just finished reading your post and all comments (thus far). I am thinking “fear is the opposite of faith” and “cowardice is the opposite of courage”. I have come to know you as a man of faith and courage, and you are again demonstrating that to the world. Carol already knows this, but please give her this message from me.

I have no doubt I will witness you teaching the fullness of Christ’s gospel in a natural amphatheater in St. George, UT. I will be there with with you and perhaps we will be very old men, but we will be Christ’s servants. My work will be to carry your cloak, yours will be to speak the words of Christ.

I love you dear brother; be strengthened by the many like me who will never leave your side.

Tim, you are going to have to explain. You claim that the doctrine or teachings have change. I can think of nothing that justifies such an assertion. By the way, I hope you read my response on your Facebook post. None of this diminishes my affection or respect for you. Indeed, if I felt otherwise I’d simply call you “crazy” or something worse and walk away.

If anyone is cursing Denver Snuffer (in reference to DS Lecture 10), it would be God, not the church or its members. If the church’s excommunication of Snuffer means that its authority has now shifted to him, why wasn’t that the case with Avraham Gileadi in 1993, whose excommunication, as exposed in area president Malcolm Jeppsen’s journal recently made public by his daughter on Mormon Stories, was shown as fraudulent but who submitted to it as a test from God instead of making a public outcry?

I don’t believe it is quite the time yet for the general transforming change many of us anticipate and yearn for. Our Lord will make it more clear when it is. Signs and wonders will attend the faithful who are looking to the Lord only for deliverance, not to men. The Elias of Jesus’ day wasn’t clever, nor was he a calculator, nor did he aggrandize himself on the central stage. Christ told us to endure and wait until the end for a reason.

Notwithstanding what I just wrote, I strongly agree with Brother Malone’s heart. I strongly agree with him and thus I must conclude I trust him to have done what he believes has been commanded of him. Note: But…I am nonetheless happy to know he doesn’t intend to follow Denver Snuffer 🙂 I wish I lived near Brother Tim Malone

History says that the High Priesthood after the Holy Order of the Son of God, was experienced in Hiram, Ohio, June of 1831 just before the Zion scriptures were covered in sections 53-67 or so. Lyman Wight saw the Father and the Son. This is different than the Patriarchal Priesthood alluded to from Peter, James and John. That was a preparatory priesthood spoken by Joseph in TPJS and WJS to be issued from father to son through lineage. It wasn’t without end of years as the High Priesthood is given directly from God.

The High Priesthood was necessary for Zion to be established and the Law of Consecration. All are intertwined. The strange dealings started in 1835 onward. In Section 124, the Lord removed the Higher Priesthood as a consequence of not completing the Temple. The Lord accepted Joseph’s plea to give them time or he would forfeit his life. The Lord accepted this.

The patriarchal priesthood is transposed as the Melchizedec priesthood in the Church today. They believe they still have the Melchizedek priesthood transposed from PJ&J. Give time a chance and all of the knowledge is removed. Abraham appeared in the Kirland Temple to give the Gospel of Abraham to Joseph. This is the preparatory gospel to be sent to the world. The Prophet Joseph said he needed something to save the church. This is when missionaries were sent abroad, mostly England because he said there is Ephraim there.

The High priesthood and the law of consecration and Zion are necessary relations. We have none of that present. Section 124 is vivid and the brothels and Masonic temples and rascallion impediments were all present in Nauvoo. How could the Lord keep things copesetic under such extreme circumstances? The Church is dreaming if they believe the Lord turned a blind eye. So there we have it. The preparatory Gospel of Abraham is what we have in preparation for greater things to come but is sufficeint at the present for baptismal covents and spreading the Book of Mormon if the church does not implode.

I agree with a lot of that. I have a hard time accepting that Abraham came in the kirtland temple and not others that were said to have come but I understand why people believe that.
1835 does seem to have been a serious turning point. Isn’t that the year that the fanny alger incident happened most likely?
History is tough with so many conflicting opinions and agendas. I personally have not received a testimony that peter james and John ever came but I will ponder on what you have said.

That’s OK. It is allright to be unsure. Line upon line. Keep searching. It enhances the spirit. Those that claim they know throw away a great principle of keeping your eye upward. You will be just fine. God bless.

Tim, I wanted to strengthen you and others like you. I have been going back and forth for three years on Denver between prophet and deciever. I came to the point a couple months ago where I really believed he delivered an authorized message but I could not get a firm witness from God that this was the case and it troubled me. Today as I noticed the first intimations of what I thought was the Holy Ghost, as I spoke to my wife and son. I focused on this and let it grow as I heard them, asked questions and spoke. This intensified inside me until it literally felt like a sun was shining on my soul, I saw clearly that Denver’s 10 talks were holy, they were the best, most complete course and instructions we have on the Gospel. Joseph did an amazing work, but according to the will of God, he left it for us fragmented. Denver, truly filled with light, has, brought it all together, freed it from historic ambiguity and made it very clear to anyone searching in fear and trembling what the Gospel is and how we come to God. Denver has taken a tapestry that was fragmented into a hundred pieces and put it togther in perfect form when no one else even knew there was anything wrong.

I finally know what the Holy Ghost is and feels like, and now recognize other times in my life when it has been active, and no, it was not when watching Les Mis or hearing a sweet story, it has no other effect than pure intelligence. My wife and son are also a witness of that power because we were all filled by it together and were able to testify together.

This Gospel will admit none, will be understood by none but the penitent and diligent. To others he will always be a pretender and a fool. I fear what may happen now as the Lord withdraws more fully from those who were once His.

By resigning, you allow yourself to still comment in meetings, sing in the ward and stake choirs and do any number of other things non-members of the Church are permitted to do.

I, on the other hand, being an excommunicated “apostate”, am prohibited from doing any of those things for the rest of my life, unless I “repent”. Otherwise, I risk arrest for trespass and having a restraining order placed against me world-wide. Phewy!

You did the right thing.

By the way, I just took the sacrament tonight with my family, kneeling down together. I said the prayers myself (from memory, of course). First time I’ve blessed the bread and wine (grape juice) since…wow…I’ve never done it since I got married…maybe 20 years! Has it really been that long?

I know you don’t like long letters or emails so I’ll make this short and to the point. I have thought long and hard about this, especially over the last three or four days. It has been the subject of much prayer. I am satisfied with the confirmation received.

I hereby resign my membership from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I request to have my name removed from the records of the Church effective today. Do not wait the standard thirty-day period of time as directed by the church handbook.

There is no need to meet or to provide counsel about this decision. It has been made. I understand the doctrinal implications as stated in Handbook One on page 148. I disagree with the statement that resignation withdraws priesthood. This is false.

Priesthood is not controlled by the church. I received the priesthood from my father. I also understand this action revokes temple blessings, which are conditional anyway. All temple blessings require ratification by the Holy Spirit of Promise to be made eternal.

I will place a signed copy of this letter under your church office door.

A lot in my mind and heart the past week. Just read the transcript. First thought: John the Baptist may have wrested the keys from the Jews, but who started the new movement? Jesus did. Abinadi may have wrested them from King Noah, but who started the new movement? Alma did. Denver’s case may have been the same turning point for the LDS church leadership, but I stand by my earlier point that I believe his role is probably over and done. Now there needs to be a new movement, with someone else at the forefront.

Elder Eyring’s name has already been mentioned several times in the comments. His name was also the one that came to mind when I first had the insight that this is the pattern we are part of now. Can we all pray for Elder Eyring especially and the rest of the general authorities to recognize the iniquity and repent, as Alma did? For those of us who believe Denver’s talks to be true messages, wouldn’t a public about-face by one or more of the GA’s be an enormous help in getting started, providing a catalyst for bringing the true Gospel to the home of every active member who has been in the dark until now?

Please let’s include them in our prayers, and pay close attention at general conference in a few weeks.

I agree with you. I am still hoping for reform from within the Church.

President Eyring is a good man.

I think President Uchtdorf is a more likely reformer. He has already stated in a general conference that Church leaders have made mistakes in the past. He is also a relative outsider. Most of the other leaders are related to one another, were former mission companions, classmates, neighbors, etc.

I don’t think we should be looking for a reformer. All of the GA’s are willing to admit past leaders have made mistakes. What we should look for is someone willing to own up to all the sins that have been described by Denver, Rock, and other bloggers, and then repent himself. The only scenario that satisfies this pattern would mean someone acknowledging the sins, repenting, and stepping away from the trappings of the public LDS calling. I don’t hope for a reformation–I don’t think it’s possible. But one or more individuals might repent and join us on the ground. That’s what I’m going to pray for.

Also, probably the LDS Church is about to institute some major reforms, most of which will probably not be good ones. I agree with sfort below that restoration is the only solution to our current dilemma.

I will try and be forthright but kind in the process…hopefully. Religion has screwed up more people in the world than anything else. I preached on my mission years ago that you can’t reform something that was lost, you have to RESTORE it. We all believed that. It was the entry into the minds of the investigator. I am a little tired of people saying this man is good and that man is good. What did Christ say? Why callest thou me good? There are wonderful people everywhere as good or better than the one’s that make themselves visable.

Uchtdorf is refined looking, Eyering cries a lot, Christofferson is a polished attorney, Bednar is young and well schooled in the system. Man looks on the outside. The ones visable are the topic.

Everyone says God told them this and God told them that. Mostly opposite positions. Religion screws up and blinds most generations. Mostly the anglo saxons get the revelations. Do you ever wonder why that is? You say Ephraim is the gatherer in the latter days. I think most of us are in a blind tornado and I wonder where all of you are going to land?

“I want to say to you, my brethren, that the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God.

Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great shifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.” J Golden Kimball, Oct Conference 1930

I also have felt strongly many times there needs to be a restoration. It is difficult when each of us has been given the foundation of Christ (if that) and then we have been filled with false mortar and bricks.
God needs to prune all of us as individuals first, before we could be effective as servants to prune the vineyard. We have so many false traditions and prejudices and much of this comes from being in a religion. We have been taught to think and interpret scripture one way.
In my opinion men like Eyring and Uchtdorf are so set in the system that God would have to hit them over the head with a sledge hammer so many times with the truth that there may be nothing left of them. But God could use anyone.
How do we know that Gos is not speaking to a man or woman daily, preparing and strengthening that individual who has not been allowed to communicate it yet? Someone could be receiving the ministration of angels daily and will begin doing miracles from day to day and we have never even heard this persons name. Each of us should develop our own relationship with God because ultimately that is where our salvation comes from anyway.

My sincere feelings of kinship and appreciation to all those, like Tim, who have the courage and integrity to post comments and take a stand under their own name, and not hidden behind a pseudonym, in forums like these.

My name is nathaniel.
I like minority of one and switching the name from time to time but I speak with everyone face to face and am not ashamed of the hope of Christ that is in me. I will gladly give anyone my name.

I adapted minority of one from a quote from Ghandi that I liked “even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth..”

While I trust Tim’s decision, I just want to point out that others may have different paths out of the Church. Some may be asked to stay until they are excommunicated, and some may be required to testify at their disciplinary council. There could be an Alma somewhere along the path of someone’s exit. It may be less convenient for everyone involved, but if it persuades even one additional soul over to the truth, it is worth it.

Again, though, I trust that Tim chose the pathway out that was right for him. He very clearly indicates that it was approved of the Lord. Tim, you have my deep respect.

The servant will surely come to begin our delivery, but Messiah is our only hope. No cause or celebrity will satisfy our hunger. Conditions seem ripe for a change because we feel the same tug and experience the same increase of knowledge which is getting more abundant and rapid. Denver Snuffer is one of us and he is not better or worse. Our church leaders, fellow ward members and neighbors are also of our same family (which belongs to Father Adam) and all of us are in one degree of apostasy or another because, by design, it must be so. To get gentile Ephraim to accommodate all of God’s plan for all his remnant children, a great change must be imposed upon us soon. Our great institutions will be reformed. Our fierce pride will be laid low. If I or Tim Malone errs in our personal decisions for discipleship, we will have time to repent as long as humility is our goal and Messiah our deliverance.

I enjoy reading all of these different posts and I hope not to judge anyone. Sometimes that is difficult! Tim, I like reading about what you are doing and thinking on this journey of yours…You and others are causing many of us TO THINK! What an amazing concept!
I do have a question …because something has come up in these posts about the Ga’s and the First Presidency being paid, I had read this in a book a few years ago and mentioned it to my husband and he was aghast! He stated rather sternly that THEY ARE NOT PAID, they have to be independently wealthy, or at least have no debts, and even the Mission Presidents are NOT PAID, they all are rather wealthy and have their finances in order. So, someone, please clear this fact up for me, are these gentlemen paid or not? I have been taught when I took the missionary lessons that all of the “clergy” in the LDS church are NOT PAID….only occasionally are Institute teachers, and a small stipend at that. BTW, my husband and I were Institute teachers and were never paid a single nickel or dime. In fact, I often paid for our supplies and snacks out of my own pocket, for no reimbursement as I thought we could afford to contribute, and was happy to do so.
Are these authorities in the LDS church paid and are their salaries comparable to those in companies or corporations? Please clarify this for me. Thank you.

Rock Waterman’s piece “Bare Necessities: How to Calculate What You Owe in Tithing” (http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2014/02/bare-necessities-how-to-calculate-what.html) will walk you through the Church’s secret “Mission President’s Handbook” and what wonderful treasures from the tithing coffers are offered up to these men and their families. As stunning as the list is there, the benefits only increase as you move up in the organization. All sorts of tricks are used (including the “don’t tell your accountant!”) so that the benefits don’t accrue as taxable “salary”. Although many at the top (FP, 12, Seventies) are also employed on the boards of various corporations owned by the “Church” (Corporation of the President), meaning that they are not *directly* paid by the “Church”. Lots of ways to dodge the “are you paid by the Church?” question.

When I was a child I had the same understanding your husband did. Later on, I knew the brethren and mission presidents received some financial benefits.

I just got off the phone with my friend and former Stake President who was a mission president in Florida and has been home for a couple of years.

He said they received their housing, utilities, a car (there’s was small Honda) Health Insurance and a small salary of $800.00 per month, which was not enough when you consider feeding the missionary’s that were entering the field and leaving… and sometimes feeding the office staff. The Church paid for a part-time housekeeper.

They figured that added $1000.000 of their own money every month. (His friend, who was in Spain at the same time said he added at least $2000.00 more per month because Spain was so expensive.)

My contact was Physician and had a sizable practice and a partnership. He sold his part of the partnership in handle expenses they left behind. When they come home… it took him 8 months to build his practice back up to where it was when they left. He figured they lost about 1 Million in losses considering what he could have during the time they were gone.

If they had unmarried children, their children could go to BYU free. If the child married, during the time of the mission, they would not receive the free tuition.

My daughter in-law’s father is employed full time at BYU. Their unmarried children can go to BYU free until they marry. Her twin brothers went to BYU graduated. They paid for their own books.

The FP, the twelve and the first quorum of the Seventies receive what the mission presidents receive. However, he did not know what their salaries were but knew they were more. He said Pres Ucktdorf drives a Mercedes. It is his own car that was purchased while he was a pilot. Other than him, the Church has provided the cars for the others.

I have heard… through blogs, such as this… that they salaries are considerable. I heard Pres. Monson’s apartment is worth 1.5 million. Like I said… they is blog gossip and not confirm by me.

I found your blog around the time Denver Snuffer had his disciplinary councils. I found it fascinating, heartwarming at times, but mostly a curiosity. Likewise, I found Snuffer’s blog curious as well. Rarely do I comment on any blog, so forgive me if this is too long. I am not an experienced writer.

I have not read Snuffer’s books, so you have absolutely every right to stop reading this comment right way. I do consider myself a truth-seeking Mormon. I’ve met people of all sorts of backgrounds, and I have yet to meet an individual who is more free-thinking than a truth-seeking Latter-Day Saint (emphasis on truth-seeking). To be frank, I don’t plan on reading his books. At one point, I was considering it and pondering over some of the things he was advocating, and even making minor mention of it while praying. I had a dream one night where I saw a book on the table. It was open, I couldn’t see the words, but there was no doubt in my mind it was by Denver Snuffer. I made a motion to pick it up, when a feeling came over me that I was not to touch it. It actually kind of threw me off guard. I strongly feel this was personal revelation.

And yet despite that, I still drop by these blogs occasionally. I’m a strong advocate of striving to have both an extremely open mind and an extremely discerning spirit, so I still try to get perspective. The thing is, when I look at all the main points that Snuffer advocates have brought up about all the good he has to say about developing our relationship with the Savior, and all the bad he has to say about corporate Mormonism, very little of it is new to me or without resolution.

Maybe I just grew up in a really awesome stake ( And there may be something to that. Even the “lowliest” of members who moved in commented on what a great stake it was, and while my dad was a counselor in a Bishopric, members of the Quorum of the Twelve would essentially comment on how they would use our stake as a standard for what other stakes should strive for.), but I remember being taught as a Deacon that having an audience with the Savior was indeed something we could strive for. I honestly don’t remember the details, but the idea itself impressed me. I actually get a little annoyed in Church when a teacher starts a lesson by asking who has seen the Savior, in order to bring up the point of how wonderful it is to have prophets who have experienced such a thing. I’d daresay there are often individuals in these classrooms who have experienced such a thing. Sunday school is not the appropriate place to bring it up. I read bloggers who say such a relationship is discouraged. I disagree. The Sunday school teacher was mistaken, not the Church.

Yes, I often heard the phrase “follow the prophet” while growing up. But almost as often or more so, depending on the time of my life, I was taught to never take anything a prophet said for granted. I was told I needed to study it out in my mind, ponder it, and pray about it. I have yet to find where that has failed me.

I can see how corporatism in the Church can turn people off. My dad has a saying, “Where two or three are gathered . . . a bureaucracy is formed.” The true church is not immune to this. At the same time, I think the Lord is as practical as He is pure. When in all the past dispensations of the Earth has the church been in such a setting as it is now? Could it even survive today in its previous incarnations? Does how it look now have any change on its truthfulness? I don’t think so.

I do think we have good men leading this church. I was a distant relative of President Hinckley, and I was far too young when he last made it to a family reunion, but my parents remarked on what a wonderful man he was. I also met Elder Holland on my mission. In the five seconds he shook my hand, I felt as if the Holy Ghost was opening a window to my soul for this prophet to peer into and analyze. Likewise, I felt the Spirit briefly returned the favor to me. I have no doubt he is a good man. I haven’t met a lot of General Authorities, but I have yet to meet one who isn’t genuinely concerned about my relationship with Jesus Christ and path to Exaltation. I keep reading blogs about how corrupt the brethren are. I occasionally have to ask myself if they’re part of the same organization.

So I’m curious as to how Denver’s “communities” will bring the world closer to the Savior. In what ways will they open the world to the true Gospel? How will they open countries unreached previously? I have a hard time seeing how organized use of money won’t play some role at some point. Additionally, with each little community, there will be a bureaucracy. I think it’s unavoidable.

I’ve tried to give you the benefit of a doubt as well Brother Malone. I have to admit it’s been hard at times. Sensational post titles, abrupt blog ceasing and resuming, and fictional conversations with leadership have eaten away at the back of my mind about one who seeks the attention of others more than the will of God. I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but the thought remains in the back of my mind.

You have stated often that the power of Satan is real. I agree. I think the Saints often underestimate him. I’ve heard people say that he can’t imitate any feelings of the Spirit. I disagree. I think he can imitate all of them short of pure intelligence and the peace the Spirit brings. I think those that follow the teachings of Snuffer have a lot of emotions. Righteous indignation and disappointment in them are also common in many LDS, but I think those who have read Denver Snuffer lack a real peace that could only come from full companionship of the Spirit. I believe you are the closest I’ve come to know or read as an exception, Brother Malone, despite my doubts of your sincerity.

I have also toyed with the idea that the Lord occasionally leads people out of the Church (temporarily) if it would mean bringing more people into it or keep others from leaving. I’m not sure where I stand on it or if it applies here, but I thought it worth mentioning.

I know the enabling power of Grace of the Atonement is real, and work to employ it in all aspects of my life. It’s been taught to me by both family and the Church that Snuffer appears to be trying to tear down. Yes, there are a lot of problems in the Church. I sincerely believe they will be remedied by those who retain their membership, at all levels of leadership.

I can remember the last day of my mission, my mission president said that things would come out about the Church and Joseph Smith that would challenge even the elect. With regards to Denver Snuffer and the Church, I think we’re starting to see some of that unfold.

Please excuse the rambling. As scattered as my thoughts are, I felt moved to comment, and truly wish you the best.

Thanks for your gracious and well stated comment. I have stood where you have stood and now I am not a member. I am making a claim that God led me right out of the LDS church. So the question is was the revelation I received from God? Or was the revelation from another source?
You seem very sincere and you expressed the desire to be open. So I am going to present a challenge to you and anyone else reading this. Will you ask God about certain questions in this order one by one until you receive nothing short of an answer of pure flowing intelligence? I assume you know this experience from what you said. Like absolute glorious light filling your soul with knowledge upon a subject.
1. Is Thomas S Monson a seer or a revelator?

2. Are any of the 15 men seers or revelators?

3. Did you (God) command Joseph smith to practice polygamy?

Those questions are a good start. You said you were open so I would love to see what your answer is on these things and exactly how you received those answers.
Most members would simply say they don’t need to answer those questions. I do not doubt you feel the Holy Ghost from time to time as a member.
I can promise you something. If you truly ask God these questions the adversary will attack you. The evil spirit will try to convince you that you do not need to pray about these issues.
Most people who actually take this challenge give up before they get an answer from the Holy Ghost. Some say that the extreme discomfort and cognitive dissonance is God’s way of telling us that these questions are wrong etc.
I know you probably expect fully that God will tell you certain answers but I hope you will be open. Do not take just a feeling of peace or something else as your witness. You may think that no matter what the answer is that it makes no difference, but this is the tip of the iceberg.
God does not upbraid us or withdraw the spirit for asking questions. God bless

As for polygamy, that is not just a can of worms but rather a 55-gallon drum of snakes. Whether God commanded it, whether it came from the Cochranites, whether Brother Joseph had an extra strong libido… it is a done deal.

Some of my pioneer forefathers practiced it. It did help raise up large families which helped established growth and left a legacy. Obviously there were also many problems including divorce, alienation, arrests, etc.

I think Tom summed up my point of view fairly well. I honestly can’t say for sure whether I find you’re challenge even necessary. I do feel I have had a witness that President Monson is a prophet, seer, and revelator, as well as the twelve. Yes, intelligence is a good word for that experience. In all honesty, I haven’t dwelt a lot on polygamy. I do feel I have had some minor witnesses of its truthfulness for certain families and individuals in the past. I haven’t gone much beyond that. I have, however, asked Heavenly Father some fairly specific question s in the past. Often, those answers come back along the lines of “Wait a while,” or “Your concerns should be elsewhere right now.” Maybe I’m not personally ready or righteous enough for those answers as you are. As a young father of four young children, I do think the Lord is more concerned with what I do with them at this point of my life, rather than tackle some of those questions. I agree he lets us ask freely, but I also believe he expects us to be satisfied with the answers.

Many bloggers today say the brethren aren’t receiving revelation because of the corruption. While I disagree on both counts, I do think the Lord has purposely brought revelation to more of a frontline level. When Joseph Smith was prophet, he was essentially president, stake president, and bishop all wrapped in one, and revelation came to him freely.

I think that revelation flows freely still, at the local level. I’ve sat in Bishopric meetings in which the Bishop would get close to the glow that Parley P. Pratt described in Joseph Smith. It was truly inspiring. I’ve often wondered what it would be like if we could take the most profound statement (about the size of an average BoM verse) any bishop, stake president, branch president, mission president, elders’ quorum president, or relief society president made while under full influence of the Holy Ghost, once a month, and assemble it all together for a monthly volume. Can you imagine the number of shelves that would be filled each year?

So when I go to General Conference, I do go with the excitement of listening to prophets, seers, and revelators, but almost just as exciting to me is the prospect of the Holy Ghost affirming their words, and in turn inspiring young men and women to be not only great individuals and future parents, but also future Bishops and Relief Society presidents than can be excellent conduits of revelation. I think the brethren are well aware of this, and are pleased to be part of the process.

I do believe revelation is alive and well in a church the Lord approves of. How He implements a lot of that, from prophet to individual, is up to Him.

I agree that Satan cannot give us the feelings of true peach & love, but he can teach us many true things (for he knows so much more then we do) as he sneaks in falsehoods too. Thus we have the need to test any revelation we get, to see if it matches up with what Christ taught, if not, then we know for sure it is false, no matter how true or wonderful it may have felt as it came to us.

But even though Satan can’t replicate true love and peace, his counterfeits are so close that mortals don’t seem to be able to tell the difference. That is why Christ taught us to discern truth from error and false prophets from true ones by looking closely at their ‘fruits’, what they do not what they say. He said we will know truth & true prophets cause they will preach and practice his exact doctrines and none else and they will have pure Christlike love, but to discern that you have to possess it yourself.

False prophets and Satan teach us to pray to God for confirmation on things, and to trust in ‘feelings’ and warm fuzzies, but that is exactly opposite to what Christ taught, for Christ knew how easy it was for mortals to be deceived by false revelation and wonderful feelings & confirmations they think are coming from God when they aren’t.

The Holy Spirit is real and can teach us everything we want to know, but it isn’t the way to discern truth from error, we have to discern that by looking at the person or precept and decide if it matches Christ’s teachings or not.

The Holy Spirit is used for learning not discerning. We detect truth from error by fruits not feelings. Even things the Holy Spirit teaches us must be tested to make sure it’s true before we should believe it, by comparing it with what Christ taught.

Unfortunately, when you use Christ’s method of discerning truth from error and devils from saints, you find that the leaders of the Church, including Joseph Smith aren’t true followers or practicers of Christ, nor do or did any of them have pure love.

True Prophets and righteous people don’t take people’s tithing from them at all, especially not to pocket a dime themselves or use on their special projects or big and spacious buildings or temples, no matter how well meaning, for they know those things do nothing if they don’t put the sufferings and care of the poor and fatherless 1st above all else. They teach what Christ taught and tell the people to give their excess money directly to the poor themselves, not to give it to leaders, who hardly ever can be trusted to not fall.

True prophets & disciples of Christ would not except a dime for their preaching and service, they would serve for free like Christ did and like we all do and like the fictional but wise King Benjamin taught. If Mission Presidents should receive money, free college, & maids for their service to God why shouldn’t everyone else?

I believe most mothers work a lot harder in their service to God (even though it’s in the home) & make a lot more sacrifices, then Mission Presidents, Apostles or the President of the Church does or any other church leader, yet why are mothers not given such perks from tithing too? In fact, Christ taught that actually the law of tithing was instituted for the poor who couldn’t work and for full financial support of single mothers, so they wouldn’t have to work and neglect their important role and family. For if mother’s or grandmothers have to leave their post or aren’t taken care of, there goes the children and all of society.

That’s why God created marriage, to hold men true to their vows and responsibilities for the woman and the children she bore him, for his whole life, not just until he wants out or she wants out. But today religious and civil leaders don’t hold men to their God given obligations anymore, so anything goes and so does society.

When you discern truth from error by Christ’s method you begin to see things very clearly and how they really are & how they were & how they will be.

Moroni 10
3 Behold, I would exhort you
that when ye shall read these things,
if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them,
that ye would remember
how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men
from the creation of Adam even down until the time
that ye shall receive these things
and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things,
I would exhort you
that ye would ask God the Eternal Father,
in the name of Christ,
if these things are not true.
And if ye shall ask with a sincere heart,
with real intent, having faith in Christ,
and he will manifest the truth of it unto you
by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost
ye may know the truth of all things.

This contradicts what you are teaching.

2 Nephi 32
7 And now I Nephi cannot say more.
The Spirit stoppeth mine utterance,
and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief and the wickedness
and the ignorance and the stiffneckedness of men.
For they will not search knowledge
nor understand great knowledge when it is given unto them in plainness,
even as plain as word can be.
8 And now my beloved brethren,
I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts.
And it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing.
For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray,
ye would know that ye must pray;
for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray,
but teacheth him that he must not pray.

I agree our “feelings” are unreliable. Methinks the power of the Holy Ghost that Moroni is talking about is much more than “feelings”. The Lord also taught in several places that we should seek, ask, knock.

And how was scripture actually received? Holy men spake (and wrote) as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

It seems to me there is more to this revelatory process than what you are saying.

I used to be a TBM and believed everything as much as anyone. But over the years I began see how the Church and it’s leaders don’t really follow Christ, in fact just the opposite, even Joseph Smith in many ways, though he was probably a good man who mean’t well.

So no, I don’t believe the Book of Mormon is true anymore, I can now see many of the great falsehoods it teaches and how it’s impossible for many of it’s prophets to be true prophets, like Nephi, Mormon or Moroni. Joseph Smith was a master storyteller and was very smart and even wise on many issues, like liberty and equality for blacks and even women, but he didn’t follow Christ enough to pass the test of discipleship.

I realize the Book of Mormon teaches to pray and receive confirmation from the Spirit of it’s truthfulness, but that’s one of the greatest falsehoods that have led most everyone astray, for they rely on their feelings and warm fuzzies instead of following Christ’s command to judge by people’s fruit or just a doctrine by whether it fits with what he taught or not.

We don’t need revelation to know if someone or something is true or not, for it’s very easy to see just by looking at a person whether they are keeping Christ’s commandments or not or if a book or prophet is teaching things in harmony with Christ’s teachings or not.

But I agree that the Holy Spirit can give us revelation and teach us many truths and expand our minds, but even then God expects us to test, question & prove any revelation we may receive, to make sure it’s coming from the right source, by making sure it’s in harmony with Christ’s words in the New Testament. Even Joseph Smith understood this and said to not believe anything that comes from him or an angel or from the Spirit or anyone, if it is contrary to Christ. Most people, especially in the Church, because of the BoM, don’t bother testing their revelation but just assume their warm fuzzies, dreams, visions or visitations are true, because very few people really have studied the words of Christ and really know what he said. Most just study what Church leaders said he said, big difference.

Next to blind obedience, one of Satan’s favorite ploys is to teach people to trust their feelings and spiritual experiences and confirmations as to whether something or someone is true or not. For it’s incredibly easy to deceive everyone that way, including the best of prophets throughout history.

For it’s the natural man tendency to feel sure that our feelings, impressions, revelation, spiritual experiences, warm fuzzies, confirmations, dreams, visions, or visitations from Christ or God, are true and real and from God. Hardly anyone considers that Satan can answer their prayers too and give them great revelations and knowledge and appear as Christ or God. That is why we have so many people today, especially in the Church, who are claiming to have been visited by Christ or God and told they are guaranteed Eternal Life, even though when you look at their fruits (as Christ warned us to) they don’t even keep his commandments, in fact usually just the opposite, for they support great evils, yet they are somehow promised exaltation.

Christ warned us about false Christs, false prophets, false revelation, etc. and gave us the key to discerning them, by watching what people do, not what they say or claim. It’s very easy to see if someone keeps Christ’s commandments or not, or if they have pure love or not.

Lilly, you keep mentioning the NT as the one only guide to be used to follow the words of Christ….Did he not say to “not judge” and to love your neighbor and even your enemy, to love one another?
In your opinion, what is the interpretation of He will go to his “other sheep”?…of whom we know not of…..
What is your interpretation of these other sheep?

You have positively decimated any means by which someone may receive revelation. According to you, they must not trust feelings, visions, dreams, angels, appearances of (supposedly) God, voices, and what have you. How do you think men and women received revelation before? Or receive it now? How do you receive it? By simply following the words in some book?

Well, I don’t want to go round and round. I just find it interesting that you seem to cut the very cord which apparently holds you up.

I didn’t say we can’t trust our revelation, dreams, visitations, etc, but that we have to 1st prove them to be true before we do. That is what I don’t find anyone doing. They just automatically assume their inspiration, & confirmations, etc, are coming from God.

I believe if we are wise we will be very skeptical of our feelings, warm fuzzies, revelations & visitations etc, and realize just how easy deceived we all are by false spiritual experiences & feelings. Even the best of prophets in the Bible were deceived to do evil and think God told them to.

We see this everywhere, not just in the LDS Church but in every religion. Most religious people feel their confirmations, revelation, inspiration. direction & visitations come from God, when clearly God is not a God of confusion and doesn’t tell everyone contrary things.

Even in the LDS Church it seems every prophet or leader has different opinions on doctrine and his own interpretation of scripture versus another leader or prophet. Every member has their own personal opinions and beliefs contrary to others in the church, yet most all leaders and members are sure they are right and their revelation came from God.

Just look how often LDS Prophets have been wrong about things, things they were sure came from God, yet things that were completely contrary to Christ’s teachings, yet most members just blindly believed in them and their false doctrines.

People in all different religions feel just as certain and feel the same warm fuzzies and confirmations about their church and leaders and scriptures as any LDS member or leader does.

I”m just saying, as Joseph Smith and Christ taught, that we must question, test & prove all things & persons before believing them, especially anything we think the Spirit or an angel or prophet might be telling us.

How is judging whether someone is righteous or not, not loving? Love is helping people repent if necessary. Love is teaching people truth if they are deceived by error. Love is helping people live righteously. Love is warning people about false doctrines, false prophets, and evil things the people may be falling for.

If someone who claims to be a prophet is asking us to follow or listen to him and trust him with out tithing and give him our time, service, money and let him influence our family, then we had better be absolutely sure he is almost perfect, and truly following Christ and has Christlike love and we discern that Christ said by watching his actions.

Actions speak louder then words. False prophets are famous for saying all the right things, even touting Christ’s teachings, but they don’t really live them. For example, they do other things with sacred tithes then give it all to the poor, they even justify pocketing some of it themselves, while widows & the fatherless suffer.

If we can’t or won’t discern if people are righteous or not or following Christ or not, then how can we help them get back on the path? How can we show them their errors and teach them truth? How can we protect ourselves and our loved one’s from them if need be? How can we discern if what they teach us is right or not? How do we know a true prophet from a false one if we don’t or wont’ judge and beware of wrong behavior and erroneous teachings?

The key is in the spirit of how and why we judge and if we are righteous ourselves.

We don’t have the full account of all the teachings of Christ. We only have a small portion of what He said only what a few men remembered him saying. But we have enough to understand his Gospel and get a good idea of how he wanted us to live.

We must study ‘all’ the words of Christ in the 4 Gospels to get a good idea of what he mean’t about judging, he commanded us to judge righteously, using love as the key to look for and judge by.

If we don’t have pure love and living his commandments ourselves then we will not be able to discern/judge righteously and tell who has love & who’s living his teachings or not.

Christ commanded us over and over to discern people by their actions, their fruit, discerning who has love or not and who is following his commandments or not, so we will know who his true disciples are and so we won’t be deceived by false prophets and their false doctrine that is contrary to Christ’s.

In John 7:24, Christ commanded us to judge righteously. We do that by 1st making sure we don’t have a beam in our own eye, by making sure we have love and are keeping his commandments 1st before we can ever expect to identify if someone else is doing so or be able to help or teach them.

Christ never preached blind obedience and just following and hoping everyone was good and righteous. He warned us to beware of false prophets, and there is no way to protect ourselves from such without making judgments about what they do and say.

If we just take one verse and ignoring all the rest of his teachings, we can misunderstand his real meaning.

I know Satan is powerful, and not to be underestimated, but I can’t help but think you are ascribing way too much power to him, while denying the power of God. As I said before, I was taught to prove the words of the prophets. It’s something I actively work on. It’s a process of struggle and joy.

Since you lack a testimony of the Book of Mormon, I’m also afraid we may just go around and around if we are trying to determine what constitutes real truth.

Lately, I’ve been mildly amused with the frequent use of the term “warm fuzzies.” I agree the adjective “warm” gets used a lot in the Church, but lately, I’ve heard it more from non-believers than anyone else. I don’t know if it’s the best adjective for my experiences. There have been times when I’ve been reading the Book of Mormon where it’s done so much more than just “jump off the page,” so to speak. There have been times where I feel as if pure intelligence was flowing into me, as if my mind was a stagnant pond, and a giant bucket of pure and shimmering water was suddenly poured into it. I truly felt like my understanding was being enlightened, and my mind expanded. With regard to modern day prophets, I have had similar experiences, albeit on somewhat of a smaller scale. I think when God wants to speak to man, He will indeed encourage efforts to prove his words, but I also think He does a pretty decent job of identifying Himself on the other end of the line. I think Moses was a good example of that.

I really have a hard time seeing how — when everyone involved is actively trying to be more Christ-like — any other organization than the Church can do as much good as it does in the way that it does. I know it works better in theory than practice, but I also believe that’s part of our growth and development here in mortality. It’s a rough road, but I think we’re up to the challenge, even if we fall short at times.

Forgive me for not responding to many of your questions specifically. Since we disagree on some fundamental ideas, I felt it more appropriate to respond in general. I will say that with regards to tithing, however, my understanding is (and I could be wrong) that most or all of it goes to benefit the members (in various forms). Most or all of the stipend the general authorities receive comes from investments the Church has. Given a global community, and a global church, I have a difficult time seeing how it could be done otherwise. Taking care of the poor is more of a local duty (though the Church plays an active role in that as well). I think failures in those regards often happen on a personal and ward level.

I know Satan is powerful, and not to be underestimated, but I can’t help but think you are ascribing way too much power to him, while denying the power of God. As I said before, I was taught to prove the words of the prophets. It’s something I actively work on. It’s a process of struggle and joy.

Since you lack a testimony of the Book of Mormon, I’m also afraid we may just go around and around if we are trying to determine what constitutes real truth.

Lately, I’ve been mildly amused with the frequent use of the term “warm fuzzies.” I agree the adjective “warm” gets used a lot in the Church, but lately, I’ve heard it more from non-believers than anyone else. I don’t know if it’s the best adjective for my experiences. There have been times when I’ve been reading the Book of Mormon where it’s done so much more than just “jump off the page,” so to speak. There have been times where I feel as if pure intelligence was flowing into me, as if my mind was a stagnant pond, and a giant bucket of pure and shimmering water was suddenly poured into it. I truly felt like my understanding was being enlightened, and my mind expanded. With regard to modern day prophets, I have had similar experiences, albeit on somewhat of a smaller scale. I think when God wants to speak to man, He will indeed encourage efforts to prove his words, but I also think He does a pretty decent job of identifying Himself on the other end of the line. I think Moses was a good example of that.

I really have a hard time seeing how — when everyone involved is actively trying to be more Christ-like — any other organization than the Church can do the as much good as it does in the way that it does. I know it works better in theory than practice, but I also believe that’s part of our growth and development here in mortality. It’s a rough road, but I think we’re up to the challenge.

Forgive me for not responding to many of your questions specifically. Since we disagree on some fundamental ideas, I felt it more appropriate to respond in general. I will say that with regards to tithing, however, my understanding is (and I could be wrong) that most or all of it goes to benefit the members (in various forms). Most or all of the stipend the general authorities receive comes from investments the Church has. Given a global community, and a global church, I have a difficult time seeing how it could be done otherwise. Taking care of the poor is more of a local duty (though the Church plays an active role in that as well). I think failures in those regards often happen on a personal and ward level.

Thanks,

Eli

P.S. I already posted a similar reply and it didn’t appear to take, but if it in reality did, please forgive the double posting.

It seems you are describing feelings and inspiration that all of us have at times. It is entirely possible that you may have such feelings while reading the Book of Mormon or listening to a Church leader because most of the BoM and most of what Church leaders say is true and wonderful. It’s the minor parts that are false and lead people astray. So the spirit may confirm true things to you, but that doesn’t mean the whole book is true or from God, and it doesn’t mean the church leader is righteous or called of God.

False prophets usually will preach mostly true things, for that is how they deceive us, then they say to pray about what they say and of course we may be good feelings, which we attribute from God. But then they sneak in just a few falsehoods that hardly anyone notices because most of what they say sounds so good & right to us. We don’t bother checking on their every point.

But people in every religion who listen to their leaders talk or who read their own scriptures would say the same things you do about their inspiration, but it doesn’t mean their leaders or scriptures are completely true either.

The Adversary is very sly, he says all the right things, but then doesn’t really follow them.

You mentioned tithing, but the problem is you are not going by what Christ said, that is why you don’t see the problem. Christ did not say for leaders to take people’s tithing and use it for members generally or to invest and pay leaders, etc. Christ said for everyone individually to give ‘all’ their excess money to the poor and fatherless around them, to seek the poor out themselves, that way we really know for sure that all our money is going where it should and we gain a deep understanding of the plight of the poor. Whereas now, most LDS just hand their tithing over to leaders and never know or usually care where it goes, if even into their own pockets while the poor and fatherless on their street continue to suffer and be neglected by the Church.

No righteous man or true prophet would take a penny (no matter where it came from) for himself while there is a widow or single mother suffering around him.True prophets don’t take money from the Church, they serve for free, just like everyone else. it is possible.

We may just have to agree to disagree. I understand what you are trying to say.

You speak of Christ’s word as if they were in the past only. I believe He still speaks today.

I think there are far greater impediments to helping the poor (many of them political, which I’d prefer not to get into) than what our prophets are doing.

It does pain me a little (maybe not as much as it should, I still have a fair amount of road to travel in becoming like the Savior) to see you do what I feel is denial of the power of God. I’m not sure how else to put it. He’s there, He gives answers, and He’s implemented ways to overcome error in the process.

You have said to look at the fruit. I see it. If someone else refuses to acknowledge it exists then there is only so much one can do to help them see it, let alone partake.

Thanks Eli. I agree. I have been thinking about Tim a lot over the last 24 Hours. I finally talked to my wife (confessed) about all this reading I have been doing on the iPad. Have had some good discussions with my parents. I have even begun to write my testimony (letter to my parents) and family to clarify What I believe in and that I have a testimony of the gospel(church), and that I am not trying to be an apostate or criticize the Brothern, even thought that is what I have been guilty of doing.

I am sorry to admire I have been caught up in all this. It has made me think though, and that is good. I have grown in light and knowledge. My faith has been tested. I have seen things (the church) in a new light. I am a deep gospel doctrine student. Have taught the gospel doctrine class twice (my current calling), and read hundreds of church books. My father and I have a library to rival even D.I. or an LDS book store. I enjoyed Tim’s post on learning through reading. Thank you Tim. Even with all the short comings, yes Eli (I agree) The Lord needs an organization like the current church to proclaim its message and grow. When The Lord wants otherwise He will do it, and it won’t be something done in a closet / corner (where few -this blog community are the only ones to know anything about it).

I am not going to judge Tim. I have come to love him through his blog. I wish him the best, and if this is what The Lord want him to do, I admire him for the courage. I could not do it. Believe me when I say I have some really good reasons to be bitter with the church, but it has also given me the most dear things in my life. My whole life is the church, just like many of you. The Lord even sent me to Jerusalem in my youth (one percent of one percent of the members get this experience). This has saved me in so many ways, when later in life other challenges have come that would give me reason to turn my back and leave. This was a tender mercy of The Lord.

I will be teaching Amos 3:7 this next lesson. I have had a lot to think about lately on, as many of you have had reading all these different blogs (Tim’s and other). I admit it is almost addicting. I have learned much and must say thank you, even though it has caused guilt to even read and discuss these things. I too want to see my Savior, but knowledge with too much zeal might get me in trouble. I will wait upon The Lord. I will say for now. I hope to continue to learn from Tim. I believe he is a good man. I wish we were in the same ward so I could have so good discussions.

When Laman and Lemuel came to nephi and asked for the interpretation for parts of a vision, what did Nephi say?

“Have you inquired of The Lord…?” They replied no, and said that The Lord maketh no such thing known unto us. Nephi was saddened by this. He knew that telling them the truth did no good, or very little.

When people do not choose to ask God about something it says quite a bit. It says either they do not care to get an answer, or they do not believe they will.

Or perhaps they know that they have not learned the voice of The Lord well enough to trust that whatever answer they get is even from God. Many of these people have never felt the power of the Holy Ghost, or they would know that the pure intelligence from the Holy Ghost is absolutely trustworthy, and absolutely clear.

Tom – how do you know whatever scriptures you read are true? If you do know that whatever you are reading is true, how do you know that you are interpreting it correctly?

Do you think when Jesus learned the gospel He looked first to words of prior prophets, or first to His Father? The only way the scriptures become useful is if they are a medium for the Holy Ghost to speak to us, otherwise, they are simply words.

A few thoughts for Eli before I retire for the evening. This paragraph deserves comment:

“I’ve tried to give you the benefit of a doubt as well Brother Malone. I have to admit it’s been hard at times. Sensational post titles, abrupt blog ceasing and resuming, and fictional conversations with leadership have eaten away at the back of my mind about one who seeks the attention of others more than the will of God. I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but the thought remains in the back of my mind.”

Sensational Post Titles: Guilty. I do it on purpose. I know it annoys, bothers, even offends some people. They have told me so. Yes, the purpose is to get readers to come to the blog and read the post. There are thousands of LDS blogs out there. I’m listed in many of the online directories. I’ve been dropped by a few.

Abrupt blog ceasing and resuming: An effort to appease my Bishop who was appalled by my blog and told me he had received dozens of complaints from ward and stake members asking him to do something to reign me in. I did what he requested and put the blog on hiatus once for 24 hours and the second time for a week, both times at his request.

Fictional Conversations with Leadership: Sorry, it’s the writer in me. I’ve been working on a novel and just happened to be in a creative writing mood that night. It allowed me to communicate what went on in one of my conversations with the Bishop without breaking my word to keep our conversations private. I asked the Lord for help and that came out.

Seeking the attention of others: I’m not shy online. I am quiet in real life, so I make up for it with being open and honest online. I confess I seek community and friendship through online means. I have found it and it has been delightful. I have met thousands of people through this blog and hundreds of them in person. Each has helped me so much.

More than the will of God: I always ask that question of myself – every day. Do I write in this blog because I want attention or do I write in this blog because I want to bring something to the attention of others that will help, bless and perhaps even answer a prayer or two? I know I have had my prayers answers by readers who leave kind comments.

Despite the fact I’d consider myself a very inexperienced writer, I’ve also tried writing a bit of fiction. I wouldn’t mind seeing a blog post updating everyone on how your novel is going, along with any pointers you might have in completing such a goal. It might be a welcome retreat from some of the heavier posts of late.

Jacob 4:14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

This scripture has come to mind a lot lately, and I cannot help but wonder who is who in this instance?

It certainly depends on what paradigm glasses you put on. I’m trying to read the scriptures with no preconceived notions or theology right now, which I a finding to be difficult because I have been so engrained in a certain point of view.

That is why I’m treading very lightly at this time and begging for the spirit to attend my reading.

Your last paragraph speaking about the Lord’s church. I believe that is = Church of the FirstBorn. Also spoken in D&C 76. How do you know that Tim and others are not apart of his (Jesus Christ) church?

The LDS church is a wonderful vehicle that can point us to Christ. He is the one that saves and redeems us. Ultimately we need to be apart of the Church of the First Born. The path is outlined in the scriptures especially in the Book of Mormon and in the Temple. The endownment in the Temple is a wonderful “dress rehearsal” for the real thing.

I agree that revelation is alive in the church but barely. Heber j grant said he knew of no one since the time of joseph smith that had seen Jesus Christ. Gordon b hinckley said god no longer speaks in open vision. Tom in my opinion was wrong about the blacks receiving the priesthood in spencer w kimballs time being revelation. I have studied that and it what the brethren said. It seemed to be “negative revelation”. The blacks should have had access to the priesthood from the beginning.
One president of the church said he had not received any kind of revelation that any good Methodist couldn’t receive.
So if revelation is alive and well in the church, it is also alive and well in every Christian denomination. (Except maybe Jehovah’s Witnesses : ) ).
Your response is typical. Most people have gotten a confirmation that one man or other in the 12 or first presidency is a prophet. Many are told that thomas s monson is the president of the church, but these answers mean nothing. There are prophets all over the place, and God would be happy to tell us who the president of Iran is, but that does not mean I should listen to him.
If you don’t think you need to ask then it is your decision to not “prove all things”. You could also ask if a prophet can lead the church astray. Or you could ask if any of the prophets have lead the church astray…. You won’t like the answers.
I disagree with tom that polygamy is not an issue. Dallin H Oaks and Elder Scott claim to be polygamists I believe. The very idea of it has been breaking women’s hearts in the church.

I’ve met a lot of sheeple in the Church. I don’t consider myself one of them, no matter how “typical” my answer may be. I’ve felt peace, not passive contentment.

I’ve heard stories to the contrary as to the visitations our modern prophets have received. I don’t think we hear them very often because so much of our fundamental and sacred beliefs already provide plenty of “fodder” for our critics.

I once heard a quote that said something along the lines of “Why should the Lord use a bolt of lightning, when a soft breeze will do?” I think that applies to all levels of revelations in the Church. Oh I do think that with enough faith and effort, we can have the lightning if both we and the Lord want it, But most of the time, the purposes are met either way. I think the breezes blow more often than we think. We just have to be willing to face it, feel it, and go where it directs us. I have no problem with the Lord using the Holy Ghost for the majority of work with modern day prophets, but I don’t believe it remains His only method.

Regarding the Methodist comment, without knowing the context of the quote, I think Joseph Smith would be a pretty good example in those regards. Where was he when he first started receiving revelation? One could see that as a president of the church lowering expectations on his ability to receive revelation. I see it as raising expectations for the potential of any loving child of God to receive marvelous revelation.

Like many (or all) of you, I am a spiritual person drawn to this online drama like a moth to the flame. I have thought about Tim’s blockbuster announcement for a few days. I wonder what it must be like for a blogger. I can believe or feel the exact same thing as a blogger, but since I don’t blog, no one knows of my thoughts and feelings. Surely, your life is different when everyone knows your thoughts and feelings at any given time. Tim is not just living his life, but has 2,600 followers awaiting his decisions and thoughts. If I were to have people coming up to me all the time in church telling me that I have lost my way, deceived, hurting others, etc., etc.; I’d leave the church too.

The Internet is a game changer. The average member cannot abide online – not for too long anyway. The church doesn’t translate in an open forum. It’s an easy target.

My wife is the oldest of 8 siblings. She has a very close-knit family. Earlier on we had hardships with her siblings who found it easy to critique the way we raised our children. They would simply do it differently and they let us know it. We were an easy target. But guess what, they all have changed their tunes now that they have their own children. We receive no more criticism from any of them.

It will be interesting to see what happens when a new community gets known for financially helping basically…anyone. There will be some coming with their hands out interested in joining the community for the wrong reasons. The welfare seeker may even be keeping his/her damaging habit up with your money. Sister P. in the community wants to help everyone regardless of this situation. Brother K. doesn’t want their money going to feed a bad habit. Fighting and contention ensues.

It will be interesting when an ex-Catholic priest from one of the community says the sacrament or baptismal prayer differently. Perhaps they were inspired to say it differently? Who will correct them? Should we correct them? This sounds too much like the church where I came from, where I used to criticize. Am I a hypocrite? But, if we don’t correct them, then it may continue and in time it will be a completely different prayer.

It will be interesting when someone from the community receives a revelation that differs from Brother Snuffer’s revelation. Oh boy. Who do we listen to? This brother seems sincere in his recent revelation. Don’t we believe that everyone can and should receive revelation? If I tell him that it is incorrect then I am sounding a lot like the church I just came from. But if anyone’s revelation has merit, we will be tossed around like the waves of the sea. There must be one leader who we can all believe and have faith in.

It will be interesting when someone interprets scripture differently than the presiding priest and contention ensues.
It will be interesting when Brother Snuffer has to fly out to a certain location and he uses some of the community’s funding. What is this money to be used for? For airplane tickets? He better not use this trip for any personal pleasure!

It will be interesting when someone in the community is approached by an outsider and is challenged. The person bears valiant testimony on the spot and then internally decides that this is what their definite stance is and they cannot keep changing their opinions so much. They decide it is easier to live life when they don’t have to be constantly questioning themselves like living on quicksand. Just decide and move on they finally tell themselves. Then later it dawns on them that members of the church they just came from had made the same decision in their lives, yet they had criticized them, calling them mindless sheeple.

It will be interesting when someone decides to leave one of the communities for something else. The Lord has told them to move on. Hmm, I wonder if anyone will try to stop that person or persuade them no to?

I bring this up not to condemn and judge, but to recognize that the LDS church is made out to be so awful and wicked online that you’d think that they are sacrificing virgins in the upper room of the temple on Thursdays. I was at a meeting last week and I looked around the room and I noticed many hard-working, humble, loyal, dedicated people trying their best to follow the light and knowledge given them. The Church takes a bad rap in these blog sites and debate boards.

As for the brethren, I am somewhat agnostic. I don’t know their personal lives. I’ve heard some things though. Elder Holland came to our stake 2 years ago. I heard amazing things about how he loved everyone so much. He made everyone feel that he was the servant, not a high and mighty apostle.

I have heard when Elder Kikuchi came to our stake that he was so close to the Spirit that he would have the driver stop the car at a certain house. They would go into the house and lo and behold someone was dying of cancer and needed a blessing.

In my experience, there is actually much truth from those that criticize. Heck, I am and have been one of them. I, too, see the problems within the church. However, I also see the vast, amazing amount of good that goes on every single day – members quietly and humbly doing their callings and lifting up those who need help. And interestingly enough, those members are not like me, online debating about it.

Like you, I am a spiritual person drawn to this online drama like a moth to the flame.

I have wondered why I have been drawn to the commentary we share here. For me, I need a place to express my thoughts and feeling… right or wrong. The discussions we have here, I cannot have with my neighbors and ward friends. This particular discussion group has been a non-threatening format where I can expressing my point of view and consider others that are shared.

I believe that Church is having major difficulties and many of their own making, by not being open and admitting to many mistakes and hiding documents that they felt might weaken the faith of others.

The mantra, “The Prophet cannot lead you astray” is coming crashing down around them as documents are revealed that prove otherwise. The have admitted it by their backtracking on the “Black” issue laying it onto the feet of BY. I could go on and on… but much of the contradictions has already been discussed here.

I don’t think they know exactly what to do… but the “witch hunts” that are happening right now are not the way to endear the members who are searching for greater understanding and exploring their beliefs.

Yesterday, on Tim’s Facebook page, a woman reported, in actual present time, a conversation that was going on with an individual who attended Denver’s lecture in Mesa was removed from the bishopric and his temple recommend was taken. Are the brethren nuts? Where is this coming from? It will be interesting to observe where talks in conference will center.

With that being said… Wonderful fruits have come out of this organization as you have expressed so well in your comments. I too look around at my brothers and sisters in the Church and find them to be good, faithful individuals… doing good and so much of it being done quietly, with no assignment.

I look at the stars, I look at the changing of the season, etc. and marvel at the “Order” of things. I believe there must be an “Order” or, let’s say, an organization that forms an hub or a core for “Order.” I think it is our nature, as humans, to seek for that type of community. At present, I don’t see that in what Denver is suggesting. It feels too dispersed, as he is suggesting we do not participate in the three hour block, which is now different than his encouragement to stay in the Church and do good.

I too believe the Lord is not through with the Church yet, and neither am I. However, I know it is up to me to discern the trappings that are not Christ centered. I am forever watchful and hope to make a difference with in my small sphere of influence.

I also know it is so important to have our roots so deep in our testimonies and witness of Christ that when things come tumbling down around us… and they will… we can still be found standing and I thank Denver for the repeated encouragement to do so in a way that has pierced my soul.

Hi Kathryn! I felt the same way about the comment about the 3 hour block in Denver’s talk… until I read his talk. Have you read it? He never said to stop going to church. That comment has been taken out of context. He just said, don’t waste the three hour block. Take other good books to study while you are sitting there if they are giving a primary lesson in your Gospel Doctrine class. Thats how I took it. He never said to stop going. In fact he encouraged people to continue on and to try and help members from the inside. His talk was absolutely beautiful and moving. My doubts have been laid aside.

From the Horses mouth,
“Does this mean you have to leave the Church? Of course not. This is to add to anything that you already have. There is no reason you can’t be part of this fellowship and be part of the Lutheran Church, Catholic Church or part of an LDS community. I wouldn’t leave until they throw you out, I would not leave the LDS Church if you find value in service there. I think the youth programs are wonderful”
(Emphasis mine)
Denver Snuffer http://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration

Most, if not ALL, of the potential “crises” you delineate occur because members of the Church (and others) have NOT come unto Christ. These potential “problems” would be remedied by coming unto Christ. Nephi (the one who prayed atop his garden tower) was intimately “in tune” with all the goings-on and what needed to be done. He was guided by angels and possessed the Spirit. That is a pattern for all of us.

The problem (as you have outlined) is not that one is “right” and the other is “wrong”. It is that “everyone has gone astray, every man to his own way”.

Yes, we could find a “prophet” to “follow”…but what’s the point? The point is to come unto Christ.

Failing to do that, we are doomed to live a telestial existence.

We ought to see our situation for what it is: abject failure to come unto Christ. Until we do. Then we won’t need to “debate” anything, because we will already have the means and wherewithall to know for ourselves.

I believe instead that people who ‘come unto Christ’ and thus who have the ‘spirit’ don’t smote off the heads of drunken men, etc. They obey the commandments of Christ and don’t murder.

It’s clear that Nephi had not ‘come unto Christ’ and was not intune and could not receive/hear God’s revelation, so he easily fell for the Adversary’s revelation to smote off Laban’s head and go take the plates etc.

If Nephi had been righteous he would have known he didn’t need the plates of Laban, he could have received all the scripture he needed by personal revelation.

But I don’t believe Nephi was even a real person, but just another story written by Joseph Smith because Joseph Smith had not ‘come unto Christ’ either, which is evident in his fruits.

Christ said the way we will know if someone has ‘come unto Christ’ and is his true disciple, is that they will keep his commandments. Nephi didn’t.

Well we are all currently doomed to a telestial existence. Yes the point is to come unto Christ. What of it? You make it sound so easy. Of course you are right, but not practical. The escaping of the telestial existence has happened only twice that we know of in recorded history. Twice. I don’t know any other group on a somewhat sizable, collective basis that is coming unto Christ better than the LDS Church in this fallen, telestial earth at this time. Can you? Again, we are way too hard on the church. It’s an easy target because we are so close to it. I see people attempting to come unto Christ to the best of their ability every day. We are so close that we only see its failings and shortcomings. Look at it from a broader perspective. It reminds me of the liberals in this country who rail against U.S. Christians at every turn, picking apart everything they do, yet actually side with and have compassion for the Islamic communities from afar! It’s madness.

Everyone seems so down on prophets anymore. Now you hear, “All you need is Christ!” Has it ever occurred to you that maybe we need prophets down here in the telestial? I’d like to see a community try to make it in the telestial with only the mantra, “Just follow Christ.” No prophets. No leaders. Just that mantra. Go for it. I would love to see that.

This is why blogs and the online community are so difficult. It’s like when you write, you lose real-world perspective. You just write to the absolute ideals, by-passing the problems of life and everyone agrees with you. Yea, that sounds right. Well said.

In my opinion – the biggest problem that the Denver movement and these communities are going to face is that, by design, the current plan is too flemsy. He will not preserve the restoration, but rather cause it more damage. He, or someone, will have to put more meat on the bones. Just my humble opinion.

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.

I can’t say who this will be, but we will be led and it is decreed. We may be out a bit, but it will happen. Until then our hearts must be changed because they are not at the right frequency as is. Nephi spoke of it and Mormon did also:

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

The New Testament says that Abraham was the father of the faithful. Abraham raised his knife to slay his own son. You call that “disobeying to commandments” perhaps? If not, why is Abraham’s “attempted murder” an act of faith in and obedience to God, while Nephi’s is not?

Christ only called his disciples to go around preaching his words because they weren’t written down anywhere. Now that Christ’s words are easily distributed, we do not need prophets, though of course knowing people who follow Christ and having their additional example is always helpful and encouraging, but no one ‘needs’ a prophet or anyone else if they can read the words of Christ for themselves.

Christ told us everything we need to know to live righteously and gain eternal life. His words are very clear and easy to understand, IF we have a sincere heart and live his commandments.

If someone has the words of Christ before them and still refuses to live them, then all the prophets in the world are not going to make a difference.

In fact, prophets usually teach some falsehoods because they are just fallible men too and thus lead people astray in many ways, and most prophets eventually even completely fall for evil themselves and become corrupt, as we have seen throughout history and even church history, so prophets would take many people with them if they did have a following.

So it is not wise to follow anyone but Christ. He was the only perfect person with perfect principles. His teachings are very basic and easy to understand, even a child can understand them.

If people are sincere and really want to be and do good, they do not need someone else to explain or interpret Christ’s words for or to them. They can read, study & understand them themselves.

In fact, even if we did have a true prophet among us, we would still have to refer to and understand Christ’s teachings ourselves to make sure that Prophet was actually teaching and acting correctly. We have to use Christ’s words to even discern if a prophet is true or not.

So yes, all we need is Christ, all we can depend on is Christ’s words, for he is the only way. No one else can be trusted to interpret Christ for us.

Christ has not even given the world any more prophets since he came, because we don’t need them, for He knows we now have his words and that is sufficient.

And I disagree that the LDS Church is doing better then other Churches. I believe the LDS Church is not even a Christian Church, for it preaches and practices so contrary to the teachings of Christ.

There are so many other Churches, people and groups out there that follow Christ and his teachings and lead people to Christ far better then the LDS Church does.

While the LDS Church does do some good things as all churches do, I believe the falsehoods & evil it condones, promotes and teaches far outweighs the good it does and thus it destroys people, families and society far more then helps them.

LDS leaders may preach some true things but they don’t really live them and follow Christ. Nor did Joseph Smith really follow Christ, and especially not Brigham Young or any leader since him.

Christ warned us how to discern false prophets, telling us to watch what they ‘do’, not just what they ‘say’. to know if they are true disciples of his or not.

What if the “good” that you see is the greatest trap there is. What if there is just enough good and truth that people believe the falsehoods that are mixed in. What if people in the church believe that they cannot learn any new revelation until the prophet does? Isn’t that just basically damnation? Damnation in the sense that the president isn’t receiving any new truths or revelation and everyone in the church has a “testimony” that they can’t either because that is what they are taught.
What if the church is teaching that they have the fulness of the gospel and enough to bless people with exaltation and that is simply a lie? Could it be that not one person has been blessed with exaltation either here or in the spirit world? What if all of these people claim to have a fulness of the gospel when in all reality the earth is in apostasy?
Yes in church people feel the spirit and do acts of good. No one has been translated. Zion has not been built, and the earth is not prepared for the coming of Christ. If we continue in this drift and God does not step in the earth will be cursed and no one will make it back to our Father’s presence. I await the servant that God has promised me will come at some point soon.

I ask a lot of the same questions, but that’s why I think religion is so personally tailored to individuals. Each person has varying degrees of gospel understanding.

Some people I know for example have an extremely good sense of the word of wisdom knowing what to do for health. Other seem to know a lot about spiritual warfare and casting out evil. Some know a whole lot about laying on of hands for healing. Some are super sensitive to vulgarity in the media, for others it is violence. Some people focus a lot on charity for the poor, other focus on charity for ancestors.

Are any of these people wrong? I don’t think they are wrong, that is just there strength or view.

The problem is that when we start to have strong beliefs of our own, we start to think they must be universal truths that must be given to every individual to follow by way of commandment. We take our own passion and sense of urgency towards a precept or tenant, and urge everyone else to do the same. A spiritual prompting to stay away from caffeine, becomes a law everyone else should follow by way of commandment. It is good advice, and I have a personal testimony that caffeine interrupts the way I receive the spirit, but was it meant to be law for everyone else?

Joseph Smith said to teach men correct principles and let them govern themselves. Sometimes today it feels more like we give men a long laundry list of do’s and don’ts. And the concrete carnal laws get much more focus than the more important eternal ones. Suddenly a known smoker is a vile sinner for failing to obey a concrete law, but an extremely uncharitable person is called as bishop.

We all have varying degrees of understanding and spiritual enlightenment. However, we are in danger of focusing so much on the concrete do’s and dont’s that we fail to take the holy spirit as our guide. God is portrayed as so orderly in the church, that we forget that he is extremely flexible in many ways. He cannot look on sin with any allowance, but he will give light to people who truly seek it in ways that we fail to comprehend. There is so much we don’t know about how God moves and gives light. We cling to our own inspiration and tenants so strongly that we become Pharisaical, we stop letting family members sing at mission farewells, we become black and white thinkers. A person taking xanax and percocet and ambien is a fine, a person using medical marijuana is just outright evil. We look less at circumstance and more at the letters of laws.

The church gives us a set standard and it is good, but the downside is that over time, we have gotten so many do this and do that guidelines to follow that many of us lose the spirit of the law. Just like the Jews.

You all make excellent, excellent points. I agree with all of your points very strongly. We need to repent and change. We need to be brave and stand up to this nonsense. This is our church too. We can take it back with persuasion and longsuffering.

I will wait on the Lord for now. Like you, I am praying, pondering, and asking about all of these matters and the best course of action. These are interesting times indeed!

Would you tell the same things to a Catholic? And tell them to take their church back and make it back to what it was in the original form? No, for it was never a true church, just like the LDS Church was never sanctioned by God.

The best LDS or Catholics or any church can do is just try to get their leaders to teach Christ’s teachings and throw out all the false doctrines and false practices, and make it as true a church as possible, but no church will be Christ’s church until He returns and established his church again on the earth, with the pure in heart from every religion.

Christ gave us his Gospel in all it’s fullness in the New Testament. Everyone in the world can read his words and know exactly how to live righteously and gain eternal life. No one needs a church or more revelation to understand the Golden Rule, or how to give all their excess money to the poor and fatherless.

People join churches because they help us ‘feel’ better and not so guilty, as we see others, even leaders, not following Christ exactly either, and yet all feel righteous just because they go to church, even though they passed up the widow and the fatherless on their way there.

Jesus could have been talking about any of the other groups of people around the world at that time, that he could have visited and taught. But we do not know for sure who he was talking about.

I’m sure Joseph Smith understood this passage as much as we do, and that is what gave him the idea to have Christ appear to the Nephites in his BoM, for Joseph referred to that very verse in the BoM.

But just because the scenario of Christ appearing to other groups of people happened in the Book of Mormon doesn’t mean the BoM is true, just that Joseph understood such a thing was probable.

Again, we can’t just take one scripture and think the whole BoM is true just because Christ could have visited people in other parts of the world. I believe we must use Christ’s method to prove whether the BoM and it’s prophets are true, not Moroni’s.

Tim,
Thank you for the kind reply by PM.
Looking fwd to seeing you soon. Will call you tomorrow, Wed.
Just finished my last baptism for the dead today in the temple.
This is what the Lord has been urging me to complete for the past 2+ yrs. Had to complete this urgently because I feel something serious is about to change in the LDS community.
Thank you again Tim for being a gentle Christlike soul.
You are loved by many.
JRU (AKA JR)

I’m sorry, I just can’t take it anymore! Too many people are committing grave errors, including Denver himself, in his latest transcript. Who knows what mistakes people will start making now? It’s such a slippery slope…

TENANT = someone who rents a room or apartment, as in, “the other TENANTS in my apartment building are noisy.”

I think the transcript is provided to him by someone doing a “favor” or a “service.” The transcripts are pretty rough and full of grammatical errors, spelling mistakes, misplaced punctuation, etc. I think he “edits” them very quickly for those kinds of things, and then spends some more time adding and clarifying.

I think he has said that when he finishes all of this (whatever “this” is) they will be cleaned up further, provided for free (audios included) and available in a more reader friendly form. I for one, don’t really like reading a transcript. However, I appreciate his efforts and the efforts of whoever provides the transcript to him.

Julie, I doubt he doesn’t know the correct usage. Just a quickie edit to appease the masses. You know. Hurry, hurry, hurry. 🙂

Oh, I was kidding. I was just noticing several commenters here and on fb perpetuating the mistake, and I was in a weird mood this morning.
😛

I do hope the book gets published soon, because I want a nice, edited print copy. I’m torn between printing the transcripts myself so I don’t have to read them on a screen anymore, which would end up being super thick, and waiting for the book. I do really appreciate that he got this transcript done so quickly, nevermind the errors!

I’ve been asked privately, a couple of times, why I resigned when the LDS Church had not yet kicked me out, especially in light of Denver’s statement below. I’ve tried to be clear in previous responses, that based on the Bishop’s statements to me, it was only a matter of time.

“Then why not wait, or why not make them do it?” was the response. I also thought that was clear but perhaps this will help: a) I did not want to put my priesthood leaders through what would be a waste of time. b) My mind is made up and will not be changed. How can it be? It is based on personal revelation. That revelation was for me, not for you.

My priesthood leaders hands are tied. According to the handbook, they had to act. It was not optional. It was just a matter of time, and that’s quoting the Bishop. I knew I was not going to change my mind and he told me he was bound and determined to follow the handbook.

When I asked the Lord about this in prayer, he said it would be best for all concerned – merciful for my brethren, and allows me to move ahead.

Statement from Denver:

“Does this mean you have to leave the Church? Of course not. This is to add to anything that you already have. There is no reason you can’t be part of this fellowship and be part of the Lutheran Church, Catholic Church or part of an LDS community. I wouldn’t leave until they throw you out, but they will probably throw you out. They shouldn’t, but probably will. I would not leave the LDS Church if you find value in service there. I think the youth programs are wonderful.”

Just reading this reminds me how blessed my beautiful life is the further I am down the road in this journey. I left 5 years ago and today I feel so free, don’t have to look the other way, no one to squelch me, no one is put in the seat that is ONLY The Lords…certainly no LDS middle man. I am closer to Jesus than I have ever been and to think, I was warned I would lose the Spirit upon my resignation. Manipulation. I pray that like mine, your journey just becomes more and more beautiful as time goes on!!!!! Best to you!!!!!

I so agree with you Leesa. I am six months out, and feel closer to Him than ever. There is no one to get in the way, dictating how to follow the Lord. My family is learning through experience, trying different ways to administer the Sacrament, to feel what is right. It is a powerful, powerful experience when you follow the spirit instead of a rigid structure that is administered contrary to the Doctrine and Covenants. There is much manipulation in the Church™ to keep you oppressed and afraid to open your mind.

Such a sad state of affairs there.

Having said that, I must give credit where credit is due. The Church™ has helped my learn about Christ, provided me with priesthood that is still in effect, and I have been endowed in the temple. They also helped me see that it is now a whited sepulcher, and find my way out by forbidding me to teach of Christ, instead teaching the precepts of men, mingled with scripture. I wonder how others can’t see it. Perhaps they just will not see.

I was also a temple recommend holder and active but the more I learn, the more the ‘Mormon’ Priesthood and temples are not anything but man made and I believe, not of God but just two of many words that in Mormonism are the same word but have different meanings, than are Biblical. Anything that had anything to do with Joseph Smith IMO was a fraud so any parts exclusive to Mormonism were built on a fraud but the good and beautiful parts hijacked from Christianity and mixed in to confuse and cause people to cling and stay in the fraud. Even Mormon Prophets have claimed that if the parts we now have been changed multiple times, were not true that it is a fraud. I guess I never understand how people cherry pick things that came from Joseph Smith to believe when they know he was a liar and especially when they are not Biblical (words the same but meanings different).

This is probably the most messed up thing I have ever read. Sounds like you could not hit your own ass with a 2×4. Sorry if that sounds rude. So you left the church because they take follow the prophet too literally and some guys in priesthood class disagreed with you? You still wear your garments, pay tithing to the cult and believe that the Pedophile Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon, which is complete BS is true? Why don’t you just stay a member? And as far as your wife is concerned, she needs to love you enough to respect your decision.

I left the church 2 years ago cause I realized it was complete BS. The BOM, First Vision, D&C, Book of Abraham are all fictitious works of a man who married multiple 14 year old and other mens wives all in the name of religion? And this guy is a prophet? I think not.

Anyway it sounds like you should kill your blog and repent cause it sounds like you don’t really have any concrete reasons for leaving the church.

Hi Chris, Thanks for taking the time to read my post and leave a comment. My issues with the church have to do with authority and control – efforts to force us all to fit into one mold of what to believe.

My focus these days is on the doctrine of Christ and following the Savior, thus my desire to be baptized. Obviously the LDS Church doesn’t take well to members being baptized outside the Church.

It sounds like you have quite a bit of knowledge about the Church and the history. Are you still married? I believe Carol respects my decision. That doesn’t mean she has to like it. She has a strong LDS heritage.

If you want to know more about the differences between what I believe now and what I used to believe, read “The Second Comforter” and “Passing the Heavenly Gift” by Denver Snuffer. God bless.

Seems like forgiveness is in order. Whatever path you are led, it will allow happiness to flow at least. So you thought you were deceived? You must forgive. Regardless of the deception you believe, you must forgive. You would know this hopefully based on your experience. God Bless.

Tim, why the need to everyone the hundred and one ways your are a loser. If I were Carol I would dump you for being so stupid. All you did was give air to airheads – no truly converted cares one wit about all your babbling. Why not hedge your bed, repent, shape up and take advantage of the atonement. You are a silly man at best my father said their should be two additional commandments to the Ten we have. Number 11: Thou shat not be stupid, which you are – and Number 12 Thou shat not be boring., which you are. I joined the church at the age of 17 over 50 years ago and know all he those of which you speak, so get over it and as the old Indian Chief said, White man talk with forked tongue, so do you. Or as my father, also a convert, joined about the the age you went wild, said, Pee – or get off the pot. Tim – Shut up and get off the Pot. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day-Saints way is the right way and its up to us to follow and I have never followed anyone blindly. Why do people like you get lost in the ditch? That is the real question. People are people- you know seem to know very little about human nature, weakness so why should you know so little about your own. Again, you left, be still and let it go, no sensible person wants listen to you, we have our own struggles. When you repent, the goodly people you speak against will kindly welcome you back. God BLess the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day-Saints CHURCH Don’t give this jerk an audience please!

As for GA’s as you call them, many gave up million dollar salaries and careers to be GA The church gets them very cheap, for the caliber of men they are and men like you are a dime a dozen, poor Carol having to listen to your babblings, what a women.

Oh my goodness! I have been following this blog for some time, and I believe this is the vilest commentary I have read here. Sister, underneath this rant, I’m sure you are a better person than this. This does not represent you very well, considering the teachings of the Church you profess to follow and defend.

Read her not for the truth of her claims, but rather read instead see if you can divine the purpose she works to accomplish, and what principles she espouses.

For example – her stated goal is for Tim to be silenced.

To accomplish her goal, she commands Tim to shut up, and abuses him.

When she says Carol ought to leave Tim, she cannot rationally believe her words will bring about that action, so this is a spontaneous statement illustrating the contents of her heart. That’s where things get interesting.

She probably believes Tim, by leaving the Church, is necessarily condemned before God, and believes this is a fact so obvious that Tim’s leaving the church is evidence of mental defect, akin to suicide. Her abuse of Tim is in defense of the Church and the Church’s leadership. She doesn’t note the contradiction between her behavior and the effect it would ever have on Tim coming back into the fold, because she’s operating on Führerprinzip. Tim is, to her, obviously disloyal, and therefore an enemy, to the leadership and the Führer whom she can see, and Tim ought to be silenced. That’s how it works.

But would the team fully welcome him back, one wonders… or rather put a mark in his permanent file as “once a traitor, always a potential traitor?” Forever a second-class citizen and to be denied advancement into any position of influence because, well, we can never really be sure about him, can we?

Again, these are all problems with Führerprinzip. Can there be true forgiveness in such a system without appearing weak?

Barbara: My first inclination was to ignore your remarks and let them stand alone as a witness of how low one can go in leaving an anonymous comment on a public blog, but these are nothing compared to some of the comments I received in the early days of the blog. Back then I was fully invested in defending the orthodox explanations for the historical anomalies found in the LDS Church. Amazingly, most of the negative comments back then also came from church members who objected to any mention of known historical issues as being intentionally faith-destroying.

Then the editor in me wanted to go through the comment, pointing out all the grammatical and spelling errors but those also stand on their own, a testament to the skills of the writer. Next I thought, “There’s no way this could be have been written by someone who claims to be at least sixty-seven years old, because it reads so much like something a teenager would write.” I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but am amazed an individual could arrive at an age normally associated with wisdom, kindness, charity and thoughtfulness and still write such trash.

I enjoyed Log’s analytical responses, but knew immediately why you left such a crude comment. Although you gave an email address, I’m not going to assume it is real, thus my public response. I don’t expect you to return to read this, so my response is really intended for others who may be wondering 1) why I don’t delete such a trashy comment and 2) if I would respond and why. The comment stays because it contains valid questions. I respond because if I were in your position and went to such trouble to expose myself as you have, I would want to be treated with kindness.

First, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Second, thank you for bringing up some important points I have often pondered myself, especially over the past few years. There really are only a few things on which we need to focus if there is any desire to communicate more. The questions are these: “Where is the power of true salvation found? Is it in the LDS Church or is it in the Lord Jesus Christ? Can and does the Lord work through the LDS Church? Can He work with us through other means?” I agree with your request. God bless the good people in the LDS Church.

I assume you are a happy member of the LDS Church, although that’s hard to determine by the way you write so despairingly of those who have decided to leave the ranks of membership. I hope you have found the fellowship and intellectual challenge you need associating with the good members of your ward and stake. I also enjoy attending church each Sunday. It’s a joy to hear good people share their heart-felt convictions of how they are blessed by following the Savior each day. They bear witness of his involvement in their lives. He truly loves each of us.

I have no desire to speak against good people I love in the LDS Church. I have tried to not do so. If I have, kindly point out where and I will make every effort to repent. You wrote about having struggles. I would be happy to hear more about your struggles if you care to share. That’s what a community or fellowship should be all about – sharing one another’s burdens that they may be light. I invite you to call me if you care to chat. My number is in the upper right hand corner of this blog. God bless you Barbara. May you find joy in sharing your love with those close to you.

As for me, I will continue sharing my journey of coming unto Christ on my blog. Not that many people read what I have to say. It’s a small LDS world. A few thousand followers if that many. The LDS Church is going through a lot of changes these days. I also once thought loyalty to an organization was the most important principle. I was wrong. Learning to repent and control one’s emotions, responses and indeed, one’s entire being is one of the greatest gifts of the Holy Ghost. I thank God for my very life, the time He has given me to live, learn, love and grow. God bless.

Hi Tim. I have just landed on your blog by some long winding path of clicks, I can’t remember exactly how. 8-9 years ago I left the Church. I had a strong spiritual experience when I did. I list it with praying about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I simply could not live anymore the way the ‘letter’ and thus the culture was requiring me to live. I was away for those years, and read many, many things and came to many conclusions, often on my own and I feel by inspiration. And, enjoyed my time away.

I recently have come back. Interesting, I know. We wanted our children to be baptized – not for membership in the Church exactly, but for the symbolism of what it means. I’ve always desired to teach and testify about the things I know to the youth in the Church – and even did some of this before I left those years ago. Their minds are much less burdened by the culture and the letter and frankly many of them need to hear words of unconditional love and encouragement to balance out all the guilt and fear they get from other Church sources. They need to know they are loved unconditionally by deity, and they they are deity.

The Church has a huge rift appearing. After all the scriptures state in the last days the the Lord will start the cleansing in ‘His house’. Of course the debate could be lively about what exactly is ‘his house’ but I believe there will be a sizable split in the membership. It’s in the undercurrents right now, and as you have mentioned, it comes out occasionally. There are so many in the rank and file who deny the gifts of the spirit to everyone but the ‘brethren’. I teach the boys (deacons) contrary to this – that all have access to these gifts and that to witness another using them is not to be scorned or mocked but to be appreciated and expected.

I completely identify with you and your experience. I just thought I would add my experience since I never thought I would come back to Church. There are many times, of course, that I hear things I completely disagree with, but I’ve learned to tune it out for myself and then give counterbalance to it in Deacon’s Quorum. So far no one has confronted me about it – but it’s hard to argue with the Spirit.

Tim is a computer technology professional providing desktop support, network administration and systems management in the Small and Medium Business market. After twelve years, he recently retired as the IT Director for a private corporate jet management company located at the Burbank Bob Hope airport. He began his career as a programmer but switched to tech support many years ago. Tim is married, has one adult son, and is very active in his local community church. He spent two years in Central America as a missionary. He enjoys hiking, reading, research, writing, correspondence and has a special interest in alternative medicine and events of the last days. You can find him online every day on various internet communities and blogs, especially in the tech area. He maintains three blogs online, one on technology, one on current events and one on health research.