Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

The NSA is spying on everyone. Corporations run roughshod over our privacy and our government. Our military expenses are adding to our crippling debt as US troops act as world police to impose 'western order' everywhere. Meanwhile, the rich get richer, and everyone else gets cheated and used.

And a lot of people are pissed off about at least some of this.

That leads in my mind to the legitimate question: how much power do people have to actually change this trajectory in a democracy?

SECOND and jack have implied that the only answer is for the downtrodden to rise up violently. Signy seems unhopeful that people can change the course of government, since 'America is an oligarchy'.

Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki:
The NSA is spying on everyone. Corporations run roughshod over our privacy and our government. Our military expenses are adding to our crippling debt as US troops act as world police to impose 'western order' everywhere. Meanwhile, the rich get richer, and everyone else gets cheated and used.

And a lot of people are pissed off about at least some of this.

That leads in my mind to the legitimate question: how much power do people have to actually change this trajectory in a democracy?

SECOND and jack have implied that the only answer is for the downtrodden to rise up violently. Signy seems unhopeful that people can change the course of government, since 'America is an oligarchy'.

Brexit is apparently a done deal. I haven't seen any indication it's about to be reversed.

Sadly, Theresa May is an idiot, riding (or perhaps even the instigator of) 'The Salisbury Incident' to cover her deepening unpopularity (with approval ratings even lower than Trump's).

And then there's Trump, surrounded and hounded by the Deep State into adopting its interventionist, pro-war policies and actions.

So, it appears that democratic elections have so far been overturned by deeply undemocratic forces who are willing to enforce their agenda 'by any means necessary'.

But with any luck, these are only the first trial runs of democracy in opposition to established forces.

Are you saying Brexit is not a return to Democracy? Was not EU a separation and drift away from Democracy?

With your question, how much power do which people have?
Allowing education to infiltrate the next generation could improve the future of Democracy. But avoidance of physical education, peddling meds, Affirmative Action selections, granting of Participation Awards do not qualify.

Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki:
I believe Brexit is a return to democracy. It's the result of the people voting on their own future, rather than faceless people in nameless meetings deciding 'for' them.

But, given the failure of 'Grexit', and May and Trump dancing to internationalist pipers, the overall trend isn't looking robust at this point.

So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

OK. Grexit was one possible outcome of the complete disaster of Greek culture of laziness and begging for handouts.
Brexit was a decision to return to sensibility, albeit not an overwhelming margin.

I don't really see a similarity among the 2, other than alliteration.
Are there other nations looking to exit?

That leads in my mind to the legitimate question: how much power do people have to actually change this trajectory in a democracy?

SECOND and jack have implied that the only answer is for the downtrodden to rise up violently.

Well... I think that's the only thing that would actually change the trajectory, but it's not the only "answer". In fact, assuming we don't ever find ourselves in a situation where drinkable water and food becomes scarce, I don't think it would ever even happen.

No matter how "bad" things have gotten or will get, for most people, our backs aren't up against a wall. There are government safety nets that put food on the table for those of us who can't afford it on our own.

Sometimes I think that maybe I was just spoiled as a child up until early adulthood. The 80's and 90's were a great time to be growing up in America. The dollar had so much power against any other currency in the world, jobs were plentiful, gas was cheap.

Though I work mostly with adults now, there are some 20-somethings there, and they seem to be happy enough. I really feel like an old man sometimes when I talk about how when I was there age beer was a buck at the bar. Most of them don't ever really go to bars except for special occasions. I used to love house parties even more than the bar myself... maybe if bars were so expensive when I was their age that would have been an excuse to have more of them.

I dunno... There's plenty to not be happy about for sure. Our horrible healthcare/insurance problem probably being at the top of the list... But that's nothing new.

As often as some people want to bitch about how tyrannical government is getting, it's not. We've got so much freedom to do whatever we want to do as long as we're not hurting other people while we do it. Entertainment such as music and movies and games has never been as cheap as it is today (Circus) and the previously mentioned government subsidized sustenance (Cake).

I know I bitch about money sometimes, but if I wanted to I could pay for every major thing that I need done on my house, my teeth and my car and just put it on credit. Then I'd be in the same debt-circle-jerk that almost every other American finds themselves in. For the most part, they seem happy enough regardless.

The next Revolution seems to be very far down the road, if it ever even comes. As I get older (and hopefully wiser), I think that's a good thing.

Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki:
That leads in my mind to the legitimate question: how much power do people have to actually change this trajectory in a democracy?

SECOND and jack have implied that the only answer is for the downtrodden to rise up violently.

Well... I think that's the only thing that would actually change the trajectory, but it's not the only "answer". In fact, assuming we don't ever find ourselves in a situation where drinkable water and food becomes scarce, I don't think it would ever even happen.

No matter how "bad" things have gotten or will get, for most people, our backs aren't up against a wall. There are government safety nets that put food on the table for those of us who can't afford it on our own.

Sometimes I think that maybe I was just spoiled as a child up until early adulthood. The 80's and 90's were a great time to be growing up in America. The dollar had so much power against any other currency in the world, jobs were plentiful, gas was cheap.

You are not the only one spoiled.
In 2006, the 18-26 year-olds decided that this prosperity of Reaganomics must come to an end, and inflicted Rock-The-Vote Democraps upon America, giving us the neverending Recession which started in October 2007.

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I was even more spoiled. My childhood was in a time where there were plenty of good jobs. People who worked for a living could get somewhere.

But hourly wages started to fall in the 70's due to foreign competition for previously American-supplied goods, like steel and textiles. People got anxious about their futures. People got mean. They started blaming 'welfare queens' for the declining economy.

To counter the declining economy, the US went off the gold standard and cooked up the petrodollar.

And then people thought they should run their households like businesses run: on credit. If it works for business, it should work for me! People started scrambling after the next deal where they could make money from money. That led to a bubble economy, with a series of bubbles and pops.

And the government, at this point completely beholden to international corporations, decided to institute 'free trade'.

But you can whip up froth on credit for only a limited time. Free trade finished the hollowing out the productive economy. And now the world is breaking the petro-dollar.

It's not a partisan problem. This has been going along for close to 50 years that I can reckon.

So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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