Because of the horrible things that he said and all the horrible things his followers have done and continue to do

Tuesday, 23 August 2011

It's Not Just the Catholics

It seems that other denominations have leaders that like to victimize their congregants too. My question: didn't anyone think to question the idea of this guy having teenaged girls over to pour honey on them and then have them shower? My guess is that he got a free pass because of the undeserved honor placed on so-called holy men. Because he's in tight with Jesus, everyone assumes that he won't do something like this. It's high time that we drop the bad assumption that religious = good.

And, it's not just Xianity either, as this story shows. Yeah, these guys have even got the indifference and stonewalling of the Catholics down pat. Perhaps Hitchens was right when he said that religion poisons everything.

149 comments:

People like you like to regurgitate 2,000 year old criticisms of Christianity. Do you actually think you are the first person to say these things? Why don't you do something constructive and be original.

This website is a piece of shit... Ya hate Jesus cause you are angry that ur lives have not been accomplished n u want someone to blame... i know cuz i did, i was lost but if u just bend down on yas knees n pray, youll feel a light. If u dont u need healing.

Yay, Xian love. So, do tell what it is on this website that is wrong, and please provide some cogent arguments. Simply declaring that the website sux isn't very compelling.

"Ya hate Jesus cause you are angry that ur lives have not been accomplished n u want someone to blame."

Sure, whatever you say. Never mind the fact that you can't actually hate a fictional character (the blog title is hyperbole) and that you know very little about me, but hey, maybe god gives you ESP? I'm also relieved to receive even more Xian love in the form of your bigoted and stereotypical accusations.

"if u just bend down on yas knees n pray, youll feel a light."

This is demonstrably false for many atheists out there who were former believers and tried desperately to feel "a light" as you put it, but ended up feeling nothing.

"If u dont u need healing."

Healing? From whom? From where? What kind of healing? Would that be the kind of healing practices that Xians used for many years not too long ago that involved thumbscrews and other torture devices? Or, would that be some sort of healing that can only come through your contradictory god?

So, if you come back, perhaps you could actually make a cogent argument that's backed by more than your say-so and actually attempt to present yourself and Xianity in a more positive light?

Oh dear me. It seems that this blog attracts all kinds of uncouth and ill-educated louts.

Ms. Anonymous Can'tSpellYet apparently suffers from synthesia as she is able to "feel" light when doing knee bends. Now that her life has been accomplished (does that mean she is dead?) she no longer hates Jesus because she no longer needs to blame someone. That reasoning might make sense to adolescents who do poorly at school, but for the rest of us, it is merely an embarrassing cue that the writer is immature and/or poorly socialized.

Another person by the same name (this guy has written an overwhelming amount of stuff over the centuries) uses CAPS LOCK to swear and throw crudities and racist insults. It's the kind of behavior a parent would expect from an 8 year old who has suddenly discovered how to get attention by shocking people.

Are these the depths of depravity that result from religion?

OTOH, dear GCT, that heading is rather provocative, at least for those who believe that Jesus was a real person who really said exactly what he is quoted as saying in their preferred translation of the holy books determined to be divinely inspired by a bunch of fallible Catholic Fathers in the 4th Century.

Giving thanks to God is a fundamental aspect of Christianity. We are told to give thanks always, for the good things we receive, and for the not-so-good as well (not so good from our immediate perspective, anyway). The implication is that there is something essential to our relationship with God that requires an attitude of thankfulness.

Of course, from an atheist point of view, there is no one to be thankful to, so the concept of having a thankful attitude has no meaning. Am I right about that, or can an atheist have a thankful attitude in the absence of God?

Tigerboy, I expect you will have much to say about this, particularly with regard to the selective advantage of thankfulness during human evolution.

A couple of years ago, at a big Thanksgiving Day party that was attended by a very broad range of people of various ethnicities and faith identifications, I was speaking with someone about holidays, in general, and I said:

---"One of the things I really love about Thanksgiving is that it is such a nice family holiday where people can just express their love and gratitude to one and other, and it doesn't have any of that religious tension and rancor that comes a month later."

His response to me was:

"Of course Thanksgiving is religious. Whom do you think we are expressing our thankfulness to?"

My answer: "Um, each other."

I grew up in America, and I learned all about the Pilgrims and the Indians, just like any other schoolchild, but I have never seen Thanksgiving as anything but an entirely secular holiday about expressing love and gratitude to my loved ones.

This party I'm referring to was attended by Christians, Atheists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews. I've attended all kinds of different Thanksgiving events, over the years. Religion rarely, if ever, seems to be the point of the event.

How many traditions that take place a month later seem entirely free of religious dogma?

The fact that the man to whom I was speaking was Jewish hadn't even crossed my mind. Would that have been true at a Hanukkah party? As an atheist, would I even have been invited to a Hanukkah party?

I recognize that the roots of Thanksgiving are about giving thanks to God. However, the way most Americans celebrate this lovely holiday, it's much more secular and inclusive than Christmas, and religion is usually the last thing on people's minds.

Maybe that's why it's about football, too. Thanksgiving is like staying home from church on Sunday to watch the game. It's a nice holiday where everyone eats a bunch of food, and says "What's up?" to the cousins and friends they haven't seen in awhile.

A mindset of happiness, and awareness of the ways in which one is lucky, and a willingness to express gratitude to one's family and other loved ones, and a sense of charity and helpfulness toward those less fortunate . . . these frames of mind are human, not supernatural.

Love and charity make us feel more human, more grounded. It's just a way to reaffirm family ties.

Thanksgiving is nice. There's very little guilt attached to Thanksgiving.

The lovely feelings of gratitude are for each other, and they come from us, not the Burning Bush.

Rosemary,I fished your comment out of the spam filter...no idea how it got there.

"...for those who believe that Jesus was a real person who really said exactly what he is quoted as saying in their preferred translation of the holy books..."

I think what you meant to say was that they believe Jesus said all the watered down things that they've been taught to believe he said. They rarely bother to think about Jesus's racist rant against the Syrophenician woman, his idea on thought crime, etc.

Carpe,I'm with Tigerboy on this, except with one caveat. He said, "I recognize that the roots of Thanksgiving are about giving thanks to God," which I disagree with. The roots of thanksgiving are in pagan festivals to celebrate the fall harvest. Xianity has since tried to co-op it, as they have other holidays, like Xmas.

Still, thankfulness is a feeling that people have where they are simply happy for the good things in life. There's no need to include or invoke god in any of it.

Exactly. By embracing the magic Savior, you are embracing all the attendant ideas of punishment for sin and divine retribution.

I was just reading about this new religion: "A Course in Miracles." It's New Age stuff, Marianne Williamson bullshit, with just enough Jesus folded in to make Christians happy and comfortable. They're making big money selling books.

"A Course in Miracles" is all about love and forgiveness. They would NEVER start preaching about Hell and divine retribution.

But, that stuff is always just around the corner, isn't it? It's automatically implied. Whenever someone makes claims to know the "right" way to behave in order to please the spirit-world, there is always the "other side of the coin." There is always some implied down-side to improper behavior.

Do EXACTLY as I say, or suffer the consequences.

"A Course in Miracles" has a dose of "karma" stuff thrown in. Be kind and forgiving, or you will suffer the "lack of enlightenment" that, while it's not exactly the threats of damnation, will keep you doomed to remain in unhappiness. God equals joy, we are not of these bodies, love is salvation, blah, blah, blah. God is eternal, we are temporary, don't value the here and now, wait for paradise, blah, blah, blah.

Isn't the Universe "miraculous" enough? Why do we need to invent bullshit mythology?

The point of the blog is to point out that religion is irrational and counter-productive to the human condition. Religion has been a stumbling block in humanity's struggle for equal rights, for instance, virtually every step of the way. It's a faulty methodology for determining truths about the world. It's a built-in mechanism for assigning in and out groups that encourages hatred and violence. If more people stand up and speak out, then religion loses its insidious grip just that much more, which is a net good for humanity.

The wish to live forever is a childish wish. It shows a basic misunderstanding about what a stagnating nightmare Eternity would be.

Think of some other childish, unrealistic wish that you know is not actually gonna come true:

--"I wish I could win 100 million dollars in the lottery!"

--"I wish I had magic powers!"

--"I wish I could be super-strong and fly around the world like Superman!"

--"I wish I could be invisible!"

How ever will you deal with the fear that these things won't actually happen? You know what? It's fine. You'll be just fine if those things don't happen.

Real life is pretty special. I recommend you take a moment, stop and smell the flowers, think about how much you love your family, think about all the realistic dreams you might actually make happen in your life, take a walk on a beach, appreciate a beautiful sunset, learn scuba diving, whatever, and enjoy the spectacular true experience of your real, actual life.

Despite everything I have said about Eternity being a stagnating nightmare, even that is an interpretation from a temporal perspective. Humans enjoy overcoming hardships. We enjoy a challenge. My human self would hate the idea of eternal stagnation. However, I actually believe that the notion of "nightmare" is just as unsustainable for eternity as the notion of "joy."

Pain-hunger-ecstasy-anguish-peace-wonder . . . these are temporary states of being. They ONLY exist in juxtaposition to different states.

Religious notions of eternity would seem to preclude the idea of "good days and bad days." How can one have "good days" without the possibility of "bad days?" It would seem to me that actual E-T-E-R-N-I-T-Y would negate any possibility of mood changes, good or bad. One would merely exist.

It would seem that a truly eternal being would have absolutely no frame of reference to relate to anything temporal. How could an eternal being understand the concept of "fear of death?" It couldn't.

Everyday human pains and pleasures? I don't think so! The notions of "joy" and "agony" would have no meaning in an eternal existence.

I am also desperate with Jesus, but he is the Way, Truth and life, he is almighty, he is loard Krishna, He is Loard Kalki & He will reign the world for 1000 years. He is so busy with many universal problems, so he has no time to sort out our problems. the place where he presently stay is quiet dense so that gravity is 1000 times greater than our earth. so for him, our 1000 year is equal to only one day. so his action is very slow. but HE is EVERYTHING. I am not a supporter of almight, but I support, truth, way and life. I am not a begger for money and comfort & position, still I love Jesus because, He loved all the 60 billion people living in the world.Unfortuanly we are very far away from him due to certain reasons. we have to find it out.

"He is so busy with many universal problems, so he has no time to sort out our problems."

Then he is not all-mighty as you claim. So, which is it?

"the place where he presently stay is quiet dense so that gravity is 1000 times greater than our earth. so for him, our 1000 year is equal to only one day."

And, you know this how? And, this makes sense how? I think your math needs some work. Gravity does not necessarily correlate with a longer day. Take Jupiter, for instance. Jupiter's gravity is ~2.5x the gravity of Earth, yet the day is shorter ~10 hrs. According to your math, 2.5 years on Earth should be 1 day on Jupiter.

"still I love Jesus because, He loved all the 60 billion people living in the world."

Wow, that's a lot of people. In fact, 2000 years ago the estimate is that only 50-60 million (not billion) people existed. Today, we have 7 billion people.

I'm baffled by this site. It's fine that you're an atheist, and everything, but why post these pictures depicting Jesus doing various, silly things? Wouldn't it be better to state your opinion in a civilized manner without posting pictures of a "magic" or "imaginary" Savior? It seems you're doing this more for shock value. Furthermore, look at some of the comments from other so-called atheists on this board: "JESUS FUCKING SUCKS YOU JEW BASTARDS" or "Jesus feels like sucking a bum". Are atheists really that sophomoric? Look at the people you're attracting to your blog.

I'm all for free speech and freedom to choose religion or not to choose it, but cannot understand or fathom juvenile ranting.

Humor. And, what is that old saying about judging books and their covers?

"Wouldn't it be better to state your opinion in a civilized manner without posting pictures of a "magic" or "imaginary" Savior?"

I do that as well. And, Jesus is imaginary.

"It seems you're doing this more for shock value."

That's because you have to actually read the arguments.

"Are atheists really that sophomoric?"

And, you'll note that I've spoken up sometimes. But, I get that sometimes people need to blow off steam in a culture that is saturated with your religious privilege.

"I'm all for free speech and freedom to choose religion or not to choose it, but cannot understand or fathom juvenile ranting."

I see. You look at the pictures and the comments by a select few and are allowed to discard everything on the site as "juvenile ranting?" I doubt you could answer the objections that I bring up. Instead, you have to attack superficial things so that you can buttress your own faith and make yourself feel better.

Who said I was religious? You make too many assumptions. It rather sums up your life, doesn't it? Your whole life is just a whole lump of assumptions - You sad, sad person you. I wouldn't say I disagree with your views - maybe I'm an atheist too. I would rather just root out useless ones like yourself because I don't wish to be compared to some dreg like you. That's what you are - You're a sad, useless, lonely dreg, aren't you?

Religion gets ENDLESS privilege in this society! That sometimes inspires great anger. A little cursing and a little anger is healthy. You like free speech? Well, that's free speech!

I have been on countless religious blogs where the comments are censored. I admire GCT for allowing commenters to say what they wish. If you don't like what some other person has written, too bad! Don't take it out on GCT. I hear people say things that I don't like with great frequency. I either address it, or I get over it!

The "marketplace of free ideas" is a rough-and-tumble world. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Try reading what GCT has actually written. (I know reading and thinking is much harder than scanning a few cartoons and jumping to conclusions, but give it a try.)

A perfect demonstration that you haven't read what I've written, either. In the past, I have been one of the commenters whom GCT has taken to task for gratuitous nastiness.

So, I'm a "sycophant," huh?

It would seem that "Anonymous" has a little tendency toward name-calling and juvenile ranting, him/herself. Good thing juvenile ranting doesn't bother me. I don't care.

I am perfectly willing to raise my middle digit in your direction, Anonymous. OR, we could just have a civil discussion about religion. That is what you were advocating, right?

I find your claim (rather, your vague hypothetical) of being atheist to be highly suspect. If you ARE atheist, I have some bad news for you. You are just as combative as any of the "sophomoric atheists" with whom you wish to disassociate yourself.

Sorry.

Maybe it's only the "curse words" that offend you. Well, grow up! Adults sometimes use strong language. Censorship offends me far more than cursing. Personally, I do not use that much cursing. But, I reserve the right to use it when and where I wish. They're just words! People who get offended by strong language are the ones who seem juvenile to me.

I didn't write that last "sycophant" comment. Some other anonymous commenter did. I guess that's the risk you take by posting anonymously...I'll leave my name at the end of each of my posts from now on.

Yes, well, all the anonymity on this blog was bound to cause some confusion, eventually.

If I accused you of unwarranted name-calling, I apologize. However, I maintain that GCT offers measured, logical, well-thought-out discourse on his chosen topics. He knows his arguments. He is far more patient with fundamentalists than I would be. He seems quite familiar with their magic book.

Also, I stand by my statements that censorship offends me more than cursing. I understand the anger atheists feel at the privilege enjoyed by religion.

I agree that, occasionally, this blog has attracted some commenters who contribute little besides shock and anger, but I would rather ignore those comments than have GCT choose censorship. It's unfair to blame GCT for the nastiness of others.

Some CONCEPTS are more offensive, to me, than others.

Using the comment of 3 September 2011, from this thread, as an example of offensive concepts (rather than just offensive curse words):

---"JESUS FUCKING SUCKS FUCK YOU JEW BASTARDS"

Charming.

The phrase "FUCK YOU JEW BASTARDS" is far more offensive to me than the phrase "JESUS FUCKING SUCKS."

Jews are real human beings. They have a long, filthy history of being victimized, hated, marginalized, even exterminated. This is just the sort of bigotry that religion creates. I object to that.

Jesus, on the other hand, is not a real human being. He's the imaginary figurehead of an elaborate mythology. (If Jesus actually were a divinity, I would think He could take the heat. I'm not too worried about Jesus having His feelings hurt.) His followers do not automatically deserve respect for a mind/behavior controlling fiction for which they have no credible evidence. I couldn't care less about offensiveness like that.

Remember the "Danish cartoons?"

People NEED to be free to express their anger (even their vitriol) over foolishness such as that. Railing against a power structure, a church, a government, that is the very essence of free speech.

Wow, Catholics and Christians aren't the only ones? Brilliant. Intellectual atheist discovers water is wet. Fellow atheists celebrate. Heh. Nothing makes Glenn Beck look like a Rhodes Scholar more than modern atheists. And that's no easy task.

After all your bravado, I would think that you'd be embarrassed to have to have it shown to you.

When you take it for granted that all those other religions are just as bad as your religion, it's not a very good defense of your religion. IOW, you've just admitted that your religion sucks. Good job with that. Perhaps you're just figuring out the liquid properties of water yourself?

Secondly, if you've been paying attention, I've called attention to the issues of other religions before. Using the title as a way to criticize without taking in the context is simply intellectually dishonest.

My point is that everyone knows it. It’s not news. It’s never been news. That any group, religion, institution or vocation is not immune to such cases is as commonly accepted by way of facts and data as is the existence of gravity. It’s so not news, I was shocked to see a website that seemed, well, proud of the fact that what everyone has known for years is suddenly known. It’s been a problem within all faiths, and people inside and outside of religion have been hurt by it. Heck, there’s some talk that there might even be a few atheists who have been known to cross the line in terms of sexual abuse. Again, means nothing at all. Doesn’t mean atheism this or religion or Christianity that. It’s a problem and scandal that transcends beliefs and philosophies. Saying this proves religion spoils everything might as well be saying oxygen proves religion spoils everything. It's a nonsense argument, and not one a thinking person should be proud to advance.

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater.)

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?

Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?

Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?

Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how?

Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.)

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

(The class was in uproar.)

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?

(The class broke out into laughter. )

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.)

Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.

Student : That is it sir … Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

P.S.

I believe you have enjoyed the conversation. And if so, you’ll probably want your friends / colleagues to enjoy the same, won’t you?

Forward this to increase their knowledge … or FAITH.

By the way, that student was EINSTEIN.:)) PS: This Will Be My Last Post-Waki

"...I was shocked to see a website that seemed, well, proud of the fact that what everyone has known for years is suddenly known."

So, you looked at the title to one post and decided all of that without actually looking into the blog with even a cursory look. You don't get to pretend that this one post title is the whole sum of the blog and use that to criticize me. It's rather dishonest.

"Heck, there’s some talk that there might even be a few atheists who have been known to cross the line in terms of sexual abuse."

Atheists don't claim to have a divinely inspired morality.

"Again, means nothing at all."

Says you. Apparently you're unaware that "All those other religious people do it too" is a horrible defense. I'm sure the victims of such abuses by people held in esteem (for no good reason) don't share your sentiments.

"Saying this proves religion spoils everything might as well be saying oxygen proves religion spoils everything. It's a nonsense argument, and not one a thinking person should be proud to advance."

Finally, next time you want to copy/paste something so long, I advise that you instead link to the source where you found it. This was not your work. You got it from an ill-informed apologetics site. (I mean, really? Man evolved from monkeys? That's a pretty elementary error from someone who obviously doesn't understand evolution in the slightest.)

I have read through your blog. Not every post of course. But many, including your banter with commenters who have disagreed with you one way or another. I notice that one of your common approaches is to suggest that the critic of your point simply doesn’t understand; the critic doesn’t get it. I’ve seen that approach several times. Fair enough. Then what was the purpose of the post, if not to suggest that it might be possible that other religions than the Catholic Church have their place in abuse scandals? What does it mean, if not that? Your use of the phrase ‘seems like’ is generally understood as saying that you are allowing for the possibility of something. Perhaps it was a mistaken use of the phrase, but as written, one could hardly be blamed for thinking that your post here suggests that you were opening up to the possibility that it wasn’t just Catholics who were the mischief.

Second, it’s not a straw man to answer an argument made. You said, in your own words, that because of the information in your post, the late Christopher Hitchens might be right, that religion poisons everything. Responding to that is not a straw man argument. It’s countering an argument that you yourself made. Perhaps you should look up the definition of a straw man argument.

I was intrigued by your argument responding to the fact that abuse crosses many spectrums, including belief or lack of belief regarding deity, that somehow the fact that atheists don’t claim divinely inspired morality makes a difference. Unpacking that would be interesting.

Finally, it doesn’t mean anything. Clearly that was not in reference to the pain felt by abuse victims, but rather the validity of linking abuse and religion as your post appears to want to do, given the final line of the second paragraph.

The purpose is to point out other abuses and to suggest that part of the problem is the undue respect that is automatically given to someone who is "of the cloth" so to speak. Perhaps you missed that whole part of the first paragraph (the second half of it)?

And, why would I just now be "opening up to the possibility that it wasn’t just Catholics who were the mischief [sic]" when I've pointed out from the start that all religions are wrong, bunk, and harmful? That's the part that doesn't make sense from you. You act as if this blog has only ever criticized Catholicism and I'm just now realizing that other religions are bad too. What a crock. It makes you look ridiculous. Water is wet and all that, and you are the one with it on you.

As for the straw man, I never said this proves that religion poisons everything. Nice try, but you don't get to define my arguments for me just so you can knock them down (definition of straw man).

And, if you think there is no relationship between abuse and religion, think again.

all of u who hate Jesus christ can die go to hell and die u mother fukin bastards eat dicks u ass holes and for those that r gay go hang your self u non God fearing bastards and im only 13 years old if u wanna track me go ahead if u come to my house and try to kill me u will pay and lose your head praise God the father praise God the Son and praise God the Holy spirit and ill pray for u all

This is rather sad. Assuming that you are actually 13 and black, I'm saddened, just as I'm saddened by any minority that has been swept up by Xianity. You do realize that your religion was used as a tool to subjugate black people for hundreds of years, right? You do realize that it's used now as a tool to oppress and keep people happy with oppression, right? You should do some research into the civil rights movements. Yes, everyone knows about Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X, but I think you'll find there are many other voices out there that fought just as hard for equal rights that were atheists and distrustful of the Xian religion.

Secondly, you have a lot less to fear from atheist violence than gays, non-Xians, etc. have to fear from Xian violence against them. Look up all the hate crimes perpetrated against gays by Xians for just some examples. That you would even bring this us indicates that you have your own anger issues to work out.

Lastly, and again taking your identity at face value, you have a lot of learning and growing up to do. Don't simply swallow what others have told you, but go and do the research. Listen to the arguments, even ones you don't agree with, and see if you can formulate positive reasons for holding the positions you do. If you feel that atheism is wrong, be able to state why it is and why Xianity is right, using factual arguments. If you feel that being gay is wrong, be able to state why that is with, again, factual arguments. Good luck.

Oh, and one last thing...please refrain from making threats on this blog. That is not tolerated.

Yet, you can't actually cite a single instance of any of those things.

It's not willful stupidity to reject your god. There are no facts to be denied that lead one to your god.

It's not ignorance to reject your god either. It's knowledge that leads us away from ignorant positions like god of the gaps arguments.

It's not bigotry to reject your god. In fact, the bigotry flows the other direction in that religious privilege favors theists in our society, and that privilege is wielded like a club against atheists. For instance, it's considered OK for a loud-mouth to come onto an atheist blog and trash it with no evidence and no argument, but still declare it to be willfully stupid, etc. Sound familiar?

Lastly, if you want to discuss intellectual masturbation, perhaps you can tell us how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Until then, you don't get to smugly sneer such things at atheists.

I'd suggest that you actually try to formulate an argument as insults don't really count as cogent arguments. I doubt you have the intellectual capacity, however, as those who fly in with insults ready rarely can handle the rigors of making arguments for their case.

It truly frightens me to see the way religion teaches each new generation of children that their own mothers are inferior to their fathers. That boys deserve education and opportunity, while girls deserve shame and ignorance.

That's a deadly message.

I believe that religion is a very dangerous influence in the world. And, as such, I believe I have a moral duty to speak-out against it.

Isn't working with a reality on which we can all agree so much better? It helps us get along. Demonstrable truth eventually transcends opinion and petty disagreements. Demonstrable truth refuses to be denied. It has to be acknowledged.

Demonstrable truth (science) can bring us together in the pursuit of a greater understanding of our TRUE circumstances. It can be peer-reviewed.

Wishful thinking (religion) causes widespread conflict over who's got a better version of divinity. (There are countless versions) Inherent conflict. Guaranteed conflict. (And, again, zero evidence that there exists any relationship between any particular divine story and actual reality.)

I'll take truth.

I'll take truth that I can take out and demonstrate to my neighbor and he'll have no choice but to accept it as truth. Reality and truth are so much better, as far as us getting along as neighbors.

The world has gotten too small for us to survive all this fighting-to-the-death over different versions of wished-for reality. We owe it to our children to start dealing in actual reality.

Well, I was genuinely wondering how you guys are doing---as in the person behind the blog. I'm really not looking to argue...at all. I think about you guys every now and then and just wanted to see how things were. That's it. No agenda. (I didn't even actually read this post). So, I hope you guys are doing well, with many blessings and moments of joy in life. :-)

I'm not gonna say "thanks" to that. I just told her I believe religion is dangerous, and she comes back at me with "blessings," but she will allow no further discussion. Totally passive/aggressive!

No, I don't have "blessings" in my life.

I have a happy, enjoyable, financially-secure, challenging, love-and-affection-filled, peaceful life. I don't give away credit for that to fictional deities. I created the circumstances of my happy life (along with the vagaries of good and bad random events).

"Blessings" are your delusion, Tertiffic. If you were really just trying to be friendly and sociable, you wouldn't be shoving religion in my face at the same time as trying to prevent me from responding.

If asking for evidence of one's belief is akin to "dancing naked in the mirror" - which I take to be another way of saying "mental masturbation" - then I'm afraid I don't know what you think is worthwhile.

I do think there is a strong self-gratification aspect to Tigerboy’s soliloquies. However, sometimes he makes his point rather masterfully. Take the subject of eternity for example. He highlights the absurdity of the Christian notion of eternal life. How simplistic to think that eternal life could be anything but tedious. Don’t these Christians ever think anything through? Here they are hoping on this childish notion of heaven when it should be clear to anyone that an eternity of anything would be excruciatingly boring. He writes at length about this, with a Faulkner-like stream of consciousness that seems to go on and on and on and then you finally realize the brilliance behind it. Tigerboy is taking you to eternity directly to experience for yourself the agonizing tedium that is the inevitable consequence of eternal life. By making the post go on relentlessly you experience that horror in a way that no simple words could convey.

Anonymous, you created this disturbing "dancing naked in the mirror" image. You attacked me for being something that you, yourself, invented! (Isn't that both a "straw man" and an "ad hominem" attack?)

I'm trying to stay on the topics of religion, piety, and atheism. (No, I'm not asking you to dance, Anonymous. That's your fantasy image.)

I'm merely asking if you have even a rudimentary logic behind your belief in a supernatural architect of the universe. (Apparently, you don't. Kinda pathetic, don't you think?)

Religion. Piety. Atheism. Are you able to stay on topic, or not? (Ad hominem attacks don't really accomplish anything.)

Tigerboy, If you find yourself bored, I would just start the standard algorithm that drives this site and run it all over yet one more time. You seem to find it endlessly entertaining.

1.Bait someone into a discussion about the existence of God.

2.Point out that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of God (they most likely already knew this).

3.Deride the intelligence of the person who ventured to discuss anything with you in the first place.

4.Pat yourself on the back for winning yet one more battle against ignorance.

5.Wax-poetic on some subject (eternity, truth) that you feel you can speak about with authority.

6. Repeat from step 1

You really only need another person for step 1. Can’t you just cut to the chase and launch into step 5? That way you can service your own needs without having to involve some unsuspecting sap who thought you were really interested in understanding their thoughts.

1. I don't "bait" people into doing anything. This is an atheist blog. I am an atheist. Forgive me for discussing the subject of atheism with people who choose to engage with an atheist blog.

2. I find the fact that there is no evidence for divinity to be significant to the topic at hand. If you don't, I'd love to hear why.

3. I have not derided anyone's intelligence. I might have called some specific idea, or some specific argument, foolish. That's part of the discussion. I would love for you to point out an example of me making an ad hominem attack on someone's intelligence. I don't think I have ever done that. (Again, by naming yourself "Anonymous," you are totally unwilling to stand by the history of what you might have written. If I called that "cowardly," that is not an ad hominem attack. It's germane to the subject we are discussing.)

You've accused me of patting-myself-on-the-back. You've also described me as being "captivated" by myself. You seem to be saying that I spend my time on this blog congratulating myself for something, or bragging.

I've done none of that. Please refer me to one example of self-congratulation.

You obviously don't like me, and I really couldn't care less. I'm not here to be sociable, or to make friends. I'm here to discuss religion, piety, and atheism.

I'm sorry if I've repeated myself with certain themes. I would say that there are quite a number of points which the pious never seem to address, such as a complete dearth of evidence. There are others. If they never get an answer, they bear repeating.

Again, I would love to hear your opinions about religion, but you seem far more interested in personal attacks. I don't see those as much of a contribution to a civil conversation. That's why I don't make personal attacks.

Again, you are free to point out where anything I've said is wrong. Because you write incognito, I am not extended the same courtesy.

Again Anon, you're only making yourself look bad. You're the one launching personal attacks here, not Tigerboy. You're the one without evidence, scientific or otherwise. You're the one who seems rather self-congratulatory. First rule of holes is to stop digging.

Tigerboy, It seems like you’ve stepped back to do some serious soul searching. After some painful introspection you have now had to confront the possibility that your contributions to this site are really for your own benefit. That your lengthy expositions are really not connected to a conversation at all, but just an excuse to hear yourself talk. That you have no real interest in what Xians think, but just want to set up the next slam on religion, which feels good because you feel so far above it. Your long hard look in the mirror leads you to humbly conclude one thing…

I hate Jesus too... I once believe in God and love Jesus but then my church most of the time they are talking about woman's right and the girls there avoid me because I'm a men.. I did nothing wrong.. .. When I told my pastor about my disease ... She ask me to stop going to church !! Fuck Jesus...

Wow! You guys are great! You have way more faith than I do. I mean to believe that this much order and balance came from chaos, now that's REAL faith. That's almost like saying that you shook up a bag of parts and pulled out a cell phone. Except, that's more of a mathematical possibility. I mean the cell phone thing.

I'm a simple man. I only have a 140 IQ so I'm not very smart. But I really admire you guys. You're so logical. I have to keep falling back on a creator, but, you guys can go all the way back to nothing. That's logical! Never mind that every first year chemistry or physics student knows that you can't get something for nothing. Don't pay any attention to the first and second laws of thermodynamics. They just suggest that this would be a cold, dead place by now. But, hey you guys are logical. And you have alot of faith.

When you kiss your husband or wife or whatever your significant other is goodnight, be sure to tell them that you are having a chemical reaction in your brain that is favorable towards them. Don't call it love. That is a primitive, abstract idea that might even suggest something bigger than themselves. That would be illogical. I'm just a simple man.

Wow, does that false and tired tripe of atheists needing more faith ever get old.

"You have way more faith than I do."

Completely false. Atheism is a rejection of faith.

"I mean to believe that this much order and balance came from chaos, now that's REAL faith."

What order and balance? What chaos? The emergent properties of the universe are simply that.

"That's almost like saying that you shook up a bag of parts and pulled out a cell phone. Except, that's more of a mathematical possibility. I mean the cell phone thing."

It's not even close to saying that except in the logically fallacious straw man in your mind.

"I'm a simple man. I only have a 140 IQ so I'm not very smart."

IQ doesn't correlate to necessarily having good ideas. This argument you've made is horrendously bad.

"I have to keep falling back on a creator, but, you guys can go all the way back to nothing."

When you can present a shred of evidence for your supernatural creator, maybe we can talk. Until then you are committing numerous logical fallacies and holding to an irrational idea.

"Never mind that every first year chemistry or physics student knows that you can't get something for nothing."

One would think that if you know what every first year student knows that you would have at least moved onto the second year where you actually learn something about the big bang and what scientists have actually described about the universe.

"Don't pay any attention to the first and second laws of thermodynamics."

How you think those have anything to do with your god or somehow defeat my position is beyond me. But, I'm sure you have some idea that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics or some other rubbish like that.

"They just suggest that this would be a cold, dead place by now."

It might behoove you to actually learn about the laws of thermodynamics before shoving your foot down your throat so far, especially in the condescending manner you have conducted yourself. I mean, if you're going to be arrogant like that, you might want to make sure you have some idea of what you are talking about.

"When you kiss your husband or wife or whatever your significant other is goodnight, be sure to tell them that you are having a chemical reaction in your brain that is favorable towards them. Don't call it love."

Apparently atheists are not allowed to use human concepts that were developed by humans to describe real world phenomena? Um, sure. Sorry, but your argument here is just as uninformed and inane as your previous arguments on thermodynamics and first causes. At least do some research on the things you're going to argue for before so arrogantly displaying your ignorance for all to see.

C'mon. You can do better than that. Thanks, though. I guess I should sue that University I spent all that time and money on. Thanks for pointing that out. Anyway,it's not you, it's me, but, I'm easily bored. But really, thanks. You guys are great. Very logical.

Anonymous has to be flippant and obtuse because (s)he has nothing else for argument. They've only got arguments from a lack of understanding of logic, science, rationality, and how evidence works, coupled with religious privilege. And, when that fails, tells us that we are taking it too seriously. The nerve.

What must it be like to have such a foundational belief, and zero ability to defend it? To spend one's life clinging to a ludicrous bedtime story told by one's mommy? (I never was a believer, so I don't know what that's like.)

If they would just stop meddling in other people's lives so much, if they would stop trying to shame people for their sex lives, and stop all the misogyny and xenophobia, I might have much greater compassion for the ignorance.

They were lied to, by their parents. Ouch.

But, you're right. The sense of entitlement and privilege is just so obnoxious.

Makes you wonder doesn't it? How did I ever manage to get that pesky engineering degree from, of all places, that secular university that is supposed to be the best in it's field? Especially when I was questioning those things I was taught from my youth. Maybe I should give back that "honor graduate" status and that 4.0. You guys are brilliant. Can't one be a scientist and still be flippant? If not, that takes all the fun away.

As far as meddling, if I think you are standing on the tracks and the train is coming, I should probably tell you.

By the way, sex is still fun! Especially after a lot of time in the laboratory.

I do seriously question your ability to participate in a give-and-take discussion, however. Your flippancy merely demonstrates your total unwillingness to engage.

You're so busy doing comedy night with a two drink minimum, and talking AT us, with sarcasm and condescension, that no one can possibly interact with you. You might as well be writing on a bathroom wall.

But, I would still love to hear your thoughts on religion. How do you rationalize your religious world-view (or, was that just a comedy bit?) with your rather grounded studies of the actual workings of the real world?

How does an intelligent person NOT recognize blatant mythology for the power-grabbing, people-controlling fiction it so obviously is?

I don't think Anonymous was saying that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics. I think he was instead saying that abiogenesis violates the laws of thermodynamics. This should have been your cue to drag out the 747 junkyard argument.

I would tell you to look for me based on what I’m wearing, but I’ve been advised not to show up in my usual shabby attire. I’m expecting OCNPD to be packed. Might be best to look for me in the molecular biology section. There may be better seating there.

There's no doubt that many Xians (most?) are Xians due to the fact that they happen to have been born in Xian societies. And, most of them are Xian because they were taught that at a young age. See here

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm

Still, some do make it out, so it doesn't seem so simply as you try to make it out to be.

And black people will be sacrificed to help whites.Falling for temptation and prostituting the only individuals with any worth will envoke the god's punishment. Nurturing pedophelia, the gods will begin to tell blacks to adopt the homosexual lifestyle, and we will see mass influx into the gay community. This in turn will create a secondary market for pre-pubescent prostitution, male homoseuxual child prostitution.Concrete evidence homosexuality is nothing more than growth out of pedophelia, this black phenomina will be used to help whites recognize homosexuality for what it is and abandon homosexuality. In turn, this sacrifice will buy the otherwise Damned blacks another "second chance" on the next Planet Earth, one they do not deserve yet will have earned throguh their sacrifice.Likely the clue sent with positioning surrounding this Situation. Blackk people don't deserve this with their behavior, but it is not their time. Black people are good who are HIGHLY suseptable to temptation, and they have fallen HARD, as we will see again with the pedophelia issue.What this would suggest is the role of "playing god" will/has been positioned to be transferred over to the trillionaires sometime, creating another hurdle and making ascention just than much more difficult.

The short-term job was essential for the god's positioning. Without it they would have looked like trash when they got me sick and costed me my career.As with my childhood they needed inactive/sedintary to ensure unrespectability, necessary to grease the wheels of their positioning.Maggots feeding at my carcass.

As I was saying Navy Yard killings in DC is likened to the Oakland Riders tactic of a couple years ago, ensuring as many blacks as possible gloss over the Costa Concordia clue, yet another Concord clue in the Situation. Should be effective considering blacks typically are not the shooters, effectively preoccupying blacks.

You should try actually reading the words of Jesus -- you know, the words in red. I get why people would hate the Bible, especially the Old Testament. The "God" in the OT is a sadistic jerk. Jesus, on the other hand, is one of the most inclusive and forgiving characters there is. I don't know if Jesus was real or not. Maybe he was really the son of God or maybe he was just a really good guy. And maybe he was just a figment of some writer's imagination. To me, I don't care. The MESSAGE of Jesus about not getting too attached to material wealth, putting others first, not judging lest you be judged yourself is such a powerful and positive way to live. I agree that it is a shame that most followers of Jesus don't even attempt to actually live his teachings. I try but fail miserably as it is a very hard thing to turn the other cheek at times. But, although I do not go to church (organized religion is not my thing) -- I still consider myself a follower of Christ. I follow him as best I can according to my understanding of his teachings. I don't rely on others to dictate to me what Jesus would do. You can read it for yourself and make up your own mind. I think your anger is misplaced. Jesus is not the problem. His so-called followers are. As Gandhi once said "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ". But, if you let them keep you from the teachings of Christ, you are really missing out on a great life philosophy, in my opinion. But, certainly do not take my word for it. Read the words of Jesus yourself and make up your own mind. NOT the words of Pat Robertson or Joel Osteen or some other charlatan who is trying to make a buck off the vulnerable (and sometimes just plain stupid) by throwing out the name Jesus. You shall know them by their fruits, after all. Peace.

"I get why people would hate the Bible, especially the Old Testament. The "God" in the OT is a sadistic jerk."

Same god as the NT.

"Jesus, on the other hand, is one of the most inclusive and forgiving characters there is."

When he's not spitting racist epithets at women looking for help for their children or coming up with the most vile and anti-human idea ever created (hell) and then damning all his opponents to it?

"I don't know if Jesus was real or not."

There's scant evidence, at best, of a historical Jesus.

"To me, I don't care."

Good to know you care about accuracy.

"The MESSAGE of Jesus about not getting too attached to material wealth, putting others first, not judging lest you be judged yourself is such a powerful and positive way to live."

Only if you read select passages and ignore all the others that don't suit your perceptions. The most on-message Jesus, however, is one condemning others. The sermon on the mount isn't about peace and love, but about ultra-conservative adherence to the laws of the Jewish god to the point that even thinking a bad thought should see you in hell. That's horrible.

"I agree that it is a shame that most followers of Jesus don't even attempt to actually live his teachings."

And, I'm glad for that. Most followers are Jesus are actually decent people and better than the Jesus depicted in the Bible.

"But, although I do not go to church (organized religion is not my thing) -- I still consider myself a follower of Christ."

Just one with no need for a living Jesus (destroying the whole narrative), no need for absolute morals, etc. You also obviously don't get your morals from the Bible, since you selectively read for the parts that you think are moral and highlight those above others (you've basically admitted it).

"I follow him as best I can according to my understanding of his teachings."

According to his teachings, you deserve hell. How nice.

"I think your anger is misplaced."

Even though Jesus is purported to have brought forth some horrible doctrines, what anger can I have for a fictitious character?

"But, if you let them keep you from the teachings of Christ, you are really missing out on a great life philosophy, in my opinion."

LOL. My morals are way better than some rusty old book's morals, as are yours. You just select your morals and then incorrectly claim the wrong source.

see i have a question, what do you think about souls immortality kindly share your thoughts. i think this is the biggest problem of us,, god has made our soul immortla so that it can never die. but this also means that our suffering is never going to end. who wants to live a life which has no ending its shit,. also soul is consciousness, infinite types of different consciousnesses (souls) are already present here, this infinite different consciousness makes god infinite. so it is also clear that no consciousness is going to die. since if any conciousness dies that means there will be "infinite - one' conciousness will left, and it also means that god is now no more infinite, indeed he will become "infinite-one" . so this proves that our soul is immortal and it will never die (if any soul dies then god will become "infinite-one") . so basically i want your views on souls immortality and this eternal life like shit thing. our suferings will also never end this way, also an afterlife will be waiting for us.

What is this gibberish about "...this proves that our soul is immortal and will never die..." ???

First if all, "immortal" and "will never die" mean the same thing. (Your writing is so unfocused and lazy.) I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding what it is that you are attempting to say, or to ask. (You said three times that God will become "infinite-one." Unfocused nonsense in triplicate doesn't make your point three times clearer.)

You speak about supernatural ideas as if they were givens: "...god has made our souls immortal ... this means our suffering is never going to end."

What evidence do you have that demonstrates any of that?! Why would you think anybody actually lives forever? This concept of "souls" is just more imaginary, wishful, magical thinking. There is zero evidence for God. There is zero evidence for souls. There is zero evidence for eternal suffering (or joy).

You believe in magic.

Why?

The concepts you ASSUME to be true have no more evidence to back-them-up than do the concepts of unicorns, Santa, his elves, or his flying reindeer.

Before you ask for clarification on the specific attributes of "souls" and "the afterlife," you might give us some good reason why we should believe that "souls" and "the afterlife" are anything more than pure fiction.

I will point out that you've hit on something though. If god did make our souls immortal, then he forced the idea of eternal suffering upon us for no reason. There's literally no reason why souls have to be immortal. And, the fact that you seem to disapprove shows that you are more moral than the god that you are describing. IOW, if you think that god is perfect and omni-max, then you've just pointed out (all on your own) a logical contradiction. You're on your way to discarding the whole idea.

I have to say this in pieces because it's long. 1) Good day to you all who read this. And hello to GCT of course as this is your Blog and to Tigerboy who contributes well. I've read the included article and all of the other comments made. I have been attending church regularly for almost 6 years now and am a Christian. I can appreciate your argument, and I like how well you do it, and I too hate that things like this happen. Stories like this, worse ones about priests not being punished and what not, often give me pause and sometimes I think that religion is messed up altogether. Many things in the Bible have given me similar pause. --Jesse.

2) Yes there are many screwed up things in the Bible, a book mostly written and edited by the hand of man, but for me and so many others Jesus does serve as the best examples. He too didn't like religion because he knew how screwed up it got along the way. --Jesse.

3) As a Christian, I of course turn back to the Bible for comfort or wisdom, and I pray to have my faith strengthened. No matter what crappy story comes in the news or what negative thing I or you or anyone else point out in the Bible, I will always turn to Jesus. --Jesse.

4) I can not provide proof of God, no man can, so don't ask - but all I can do is live my life in such a way that others might see a glimpse Christ's love in me. I could offer the Earth, space, and so on and so on, as proof but you and so many others would mention the big bang theory again and again and again. If I had proof and showed it to you, what guarantee is there that you'd accept it? Chances are you would be still be skeptical, and that'd be ok because you were given free-will to decide for yourself. On that note, in my own skeptic way, if an angel came in my room right now I (half-jokingly) would take a swing at him out of doubt or fear but more so because demons can briefly appear as angels...but to combat my doubt or fear, there is a question that only God would know and have the answer to... 5)...but my point is what can a scientist or whoever do to prove something besides refer to their IQ level or where they went to school? Asking people to furnish proof of God and his works, then rubbing it in their faces that they can't provide it, doesn't help your argument because the expectation is that the religious person shuts up and comes back later with proof. 6) Someone was mocked for saying that if there was definite proof of God, then we'd lose our free-will...well, I believe that's true because actually seeing God or Jesus walking around today would be mind-blowing and all people would have no choice but to believe and all people would be judged (read revelations). --Jesse.

7) A world where everyone got along would be great; but you mean to accomplish that by getting rid of religion...how is science not as bad if not worse than religion? How did modern science make this world a more kind and loving place? Now before you mention medicines and what not, don't forget the host of brand new dangers that came about while people experimented. Where do weapons, guns, bombs, nukes, viruses and poisons come from? Where does the obsession with money, violence, sex, greed, and death come...from the Bible? Nope. The Bible clearly states when and where evil entered the world, why evil still reigns today, and offers many positive ways to defend one's self and protect others. 8) You also quote "facts" written by people who are no longer living, trust in the supposed high intellect of others, have not seen as much proof, can do no better in proving your version of truth to me than I can prove to you that God exists. 9) Why make such a lengthy argument about how bad religion is, when the elephant in the room is how terrible people are? It's funny that you intend to make the world a better place by pointing to religion and God as the sole source of evil in this world. Yes I know many religious people point their finger right back. It's a vicious cycle. 10) As a Christian I turn to Jesus as the best example, I am happy this way, does it really pain you to know that? Should I or someone else follow you instead, or some civil rights leader with plenty of his own sins to account for or a scientist or a nun or a priest? 11) If you take Jesus out the picture: then what you are left with is a bunch of people arguing and fighting over who does it best, people whose minds change daily and morals only stand up as long as the right conditions are met. You say you love people, but who would you really die for so others could live...just the ones you love or you think love you, right? 12) Well, I could say I made my point, but then you or someone else will quote some scientific reference or find some article or whatever to say I didn't, it's ok, go on ahead and have fun with it. 13) Lastly, God loves you and everyone else all things considered and you're ok with me...accept it or don't. Take care. --Jesse.

2) Jesus doesn't claim he hates religion. In fact, he chides others for not being conservative enough and not worshiping him. He also spits racist epithets at others and preaches eternal hell fire and damnation for all those who believe differently from him (and don't obey him). He's not a moral or good character.

3) What you're saying here is that no matter what, your faith cannot be shaken, which is an admission that you will refuse to think rationally.

4) Atheists and people of other religions also live good lives. You being a good person no more provides a reason to believe in Jesus than any other person of any other faith or no faith provides reason to believe in other faiths or no faith.

As for proof, I only ask for evidence. But, you point out a big problem with your own statement when you admit that you can't tell an angel from a demon posing as an angel. How can you be certain that what you think about the supernatural is true when you freely admit that you can so easily be fooled?

5) Asking for evidence is actually the best case for my position, because the theist does not have any to provide. The rational position, then, is atheism.

6) If we had evidence that god exists, there would still be free will. This is a bad argument for Xians to make, that god can't provide evidence for himself because it would violate our free will. We would still be free to choose to worship this god or not. It's a worse violation of our will to intentionally withhold pertinent information from us. Of course, a larger problem happens with the concept of free will and an omni-max being, as they are mutually exclusive concepts. You can't have both.

7) I would like for people to freely give up their religion based on the rationality, yes. But, no one is claiming that we turn to scientism. That's a strawman argument.

Secondly, religion is not a force for good in this world as you assert. Religion (including Xianity) has always been dragging behind social equality and reform. Look at the question of gay rights that is going on right now and you'll see a contemporary example.

8) The burden of proof is on you, not on me. That's the first point. The second is that facts are facts regardless of whether the person who discovered a fact is dead or not. The evidence is against you, as you have none. In the absence of evidence, the rational position is to be an atheist.

9) This is a no true Scotsman logical fallacy that ignores the role that religion plays in othering those of differing faiths or no faith as well as it's adherence to blind faith which is an inherently unreliable way of discerning truths about the world and a gateway to irrational and negative beliefs about others. You don't need religion in order to be a bad person, but it has most certainly helped historically.

10) I'm not trying to make you follow me as some sort of religious figure that you must blindly accept as correct. I'm asking you to act rationally and to use reason. There's a huge difference. And, yes, if people stopped following Jesus, I can see how it would help our world, like with the previously mentioned gay rights issue.

11) With Jesus in the picture we sure do seem to have a lot of arguing.

Also, what in the world are you talking about with dying for others?

12) Oh, I think you made a point, but not as forcefully as you had hoped, for the reasons I point out.

Jesse, I think you have made a fairly thoughtful post. I applaud your efforts to think logically about these issues, although you clearly DEFER to the Bible and what you have been told about religion.

Still, a logical approach to these issues is on your mind. Kudos, for that.

Jesse's point #2) You are recognizing a difference between some loving, kind, philosophical idea attributed to the literary "Jesus" and the way in which that idea gets interpreted, down through the ages, and enforced, by large groups of people (organized religion). Yet, you are not merely offering admiration for the words of the literary "Jesus." You are supporting organized religion, the very thing which you claim "Jesus" did not like.

The literary "Jesus" CLEARLY supports a supernatural view of the Universe, as well as demanding worship. He definitely threatens those who do not cooperate with his version of a supernatural reality. He definitely threatens people with damnation in Hell.

3) You claim "Jesus" knew that religion got "screwed up along the way," and have dismissed the Bible as having been "mostly written and edited by the hand of man," yet here you are telling us you will always turn to this man-made document. Which do you love? The words attributed to literary "Jesus," or the man-made document?

4) An altered version of what Jesse said: "I can not provide proof of (UNICORNS,) no man can, so don't ask - but all I can do is live my life in such a way that others might see a glimpse (UNICORN's) love in me. I could offer the (RAINBOWS) ... If I had proof and showed it to you, what guarantee is there that you'd accept it?"

Do you see what I've done, Jesse? There are an infinite number of fictitious beings that we cannot disprove. Elves, fairies, unicorns, Santa Claus, etc.

There is NO WAY to disprove any of them. Neither is there any evidence that they actually exist. Yet, you are totally ATHEIST regarding every last one of them! Why dismiss all those magic beings as fantastical and ridiculous, but save one special, magical place for Jesus/God? If you have something that demonstrates why Jesus/God is more real, I'd love to hear about it.

In the meantime, your assertion that YOUR version of supernatural reality is true, which conflicts with the Muslim version of supernatural reality, which conflicts with the Hindu version of supernatural reality, which conflicts with the Buddhist version of supernatural reality, etc, your assertions about this magic being true ARE GUARANTEED TO CAUSE CONFLICT WITH YOUR GLOBAL NEIGHBORS.

Religion causes conflict, because you are utterly convinced of something that seems totally absurd to other people. And, your religion leads to real abuses of real people! Religion is responsible for the subjugation of women. The hatred of homosexuals. Racism. Division. Xenophobia. War.

We're better than them! We're God's "chosen!"

7) Science doesn't promote kindness, but it explores a reality which can be demonstrated as actually true. It shows us realities upon which all reasonable people can agree.

Hello guys. Sorry, I haven't been around for over a year. Health reasons. I had two major surgeries. I'm having another day after tomorrow. I guess if I were an evolutionist, I would say that I was surviving.

Anyway, did I miss anything? Is the mic still open? Are we still friends? Are you guys still keeping the faith? Did you MISS me? (Don't worry, your aim will get better with practice)

I know you must be so grateful for all the evidence-based, reason-based scientific method that went into accomplishing your surgeries, in addition to all the other science-based care you must have received.

It is just AMAZING how much our lives have been lengthened and improved by the application of reason and science! Don't you agree?

Do you acknowledge your surgeons and other medical staff and their excellent science education and training? Do they get any of the credit?

Or, do you give all the credit for your improvement to the mumbling of certain magic words? I'm just wondering. (I'm not trying to be nasty. I really am curious.)

Phil is a not so closet homo. His gay lover has come forward. Phil blows a lot more than duck calls! He's like so many Christians, he hates gays and is gay himself, just like Jesus in the Hidden Gospel of Mark

The moral precepts of Jesus are sometimes interesting, sometimes poetic, sometimes benevolent, sometimes confusing, sometimes pernicious, and sometimes devastatingly harmful psychologically. To be moral, according to Jesus, man must shackle his reason. He must force himself to believe that which he cannot understand. He must suppress, in the name of morality, any doubts that surface in his mind. Less criticism leads to more faith - and faith, Jesus declares, is the hallmark of virtue.

The psychological impact of this doctrine is devastating. To divorce morality from truth is to turn man's reason against himself. Reason, as the faculty by which man comprehends reality and exercises control over his environment, is the basic requirement of self-esteem. Reason becomes a vice, something to be feared, and man finds that his worst enemy is his own capacity to think and question.

One can scarcely imagine a more effective way to introduce perpetual conflict into man's consciousness and thereby induce the host of neurotic symptoms that men call religion.

The great poet Shelley accurately summed up Jesus in his 1816 epic poem "Queen Mab", in the lines, which I quote below:

He ledThe crowd; he taught them justice, truth and peace,In semblance; but he lit within their soulsThe quenchless flames of zeal, and blessed the sword He brought on earth to satiate with the bloodOf truth and freedom his malignant soul.