Yeah, that's a good point. It kinda makes you wonder what would've happened if Artemis hadn't lied to Holly. It probably would've been a whole lot more awkward upon their return to their original ages, but you can't really know how that would've gone—maybe the feelings would disappear and life would resume as normal, maybe they'd hang around partially and complicate things, but you don't know because Artemis did lie.

Also, I read part of the Pendragon series, but I guess the books didn't really grab me and I gave up a bit after the middle of the series. But yeah, Bobby failing and people dying gave the books a darker feeling, and I guess it's realistic that the hero can't win every fight.

I said you were smart, Mud Boy. I was wrong; are exceptional.—Qwan Which do you think seems more suspicious? An alien-looking craft hovering in the yard of a country home, or a floating doorway with a centaur standing in it?—Domovoi Butler We can only change the future, not the past or present.—Artemis Fowl II I'm trying to care, Artemis. But I thought it was all supposed to be over when the fat lady sings. Well, she's singing, but it doesn't appear to be over.—Holly Short

I forgot about this topic... (Guess I might as well reply to it now, while I'm on a role. x3)

That is kind of an interesting thing to think about...I mean, I really love the way TTP played out, the reason I loved it as much as I did was that not everything did work out in the end, and Artemis did have to pay for the lie he told to save his mother. (That is, the lie he told did turn out to be a real sacrifice, in a way even he didn't fully anticipate.) But you do wonder how things might have been different without that one lie. (Would Holly have even ended up going to the past if Artemis hadn't emotionally blackmailed her into it?) If in that scene in the chapter 'The Frog Prince,' Artemis had been able to say his real feelings, rather than confess the lie, you wonder how things might have turned out. It could be when they returned from the past, Holly, going back to her normal age, things would have all gone back to normal anyway. (After all, Holly's sort of implied statement was hinged on the possibility, 'What if I'm stuck like this?') Still, there might have been a door still open sometime in the future, when Artemis was older. But yeah, we won't ever know that. And again, I do like how TTP ultimately played out. Those sort of understated moments, Artemis's simple thought, 'If only'--I felt like that was able to communicate so much more powerfully and capture that sense of regret so well, and probably better than a long internal monologue.

“After all, absolutely no one can help but suspect a criminal, liar, and manipulator of committing crimes, lying, and manipulating. And of course, no one is more aware of that simple fact than Artemis Fowl.”

Opal sets into motion her most diabolical scheme yet, to frame Artemis and turn his closest friends against him. Only this time she has a new calculating partner who knows Artemis better than he knows himself. [Post TAC]

I feel like the question of "well what would have happened if Artemis hadn't lied" is fundamental to the book as a whole, because if he didn't and Holly didn't go back, then [Insert Time travel stuff here] and then Opal couldn't have come into the future necessitating his choice to lie or not. You could definitely interpret this as predestination, but another (and I think more interesting) extrapolation you can make is that of Artemis's change as a person. There are many obvious ways in which Colfer makes parallels between younger Artemis and elder Artemis, showing how much Artemis has in fact changed (for the better) by using younger Artemis as a static beacon to measure off of. This means that Artemis's past is quite literally haunting him, and his past misdeeds are continuing to effect his future (in both the obvious sense of the lemur, and the slightly more subtle instance of Holly). This shows that while Artemis is improving, he won't ever be completely "good" (kind of like a geometric series with -1<r<1).

"The end: It's gonna happen! But in the meantime, its on with the show. On with the show!" -Devo

Yeah, exactly, and I think that aspect of directly showing how Artemis has changed from what he was in the earlier books by pitting him against his younger self is a big part of why this is my favorite book of the series, and why I couldn't help but feel it was perhaps the best.

Haha, yeah, you could go down the route of there not being a choice and predestination, but I agree, I don't think that was ultimately the message that scene was trying to convey. I'm not sure I would go as far as to say that Artemis's lie to Holly shows he won't ever be completely good, but I do think that Artemis's character and values at that particular moment in the series did make the lie almost inevitable, factoring in Artemis's beliefs on strength and weakness, and his mindset of doing what's necessary, no matter how ruthless. However, I think one of the significant aspects of the scene is the contrast in how Artemis reacts to feeling forced to tell the lie to what he felt when he was lying in book one (such as the deception about the sodium pentathol) or even TEC (not telling Holly they'll be cutting off Spiro's thumb until practically the moment of). Earlier on, he would barely feel a twinge of guilt, whereas in TTP, his deep regret show how much he values his friendship with Holly.

I think Artemis still has room to continue to improve as a person from what he was at the point of TTP (I felt like there was an opportunity in TAC, but it wasn't really fully realized), but yeah, if you're defining 'completely good' as a kind of perfect hero who never makes mistakes, I do agree I don't think that will ever be Artemis. I think his particular flaws will be something he will always struggle with, but I admit, I do think he has a chance to overcome them and become a truly completely 'heroic' character, as we would define a hero. (That is—a hero without an asterisk, as Artemis has been through most of the series.) But then, by that definition, none of the other characters could be defined as being completely good either, and those weaknesses they all struggle with are part of what make them interesting and believable as characters. (Holly in particular has some pretty glaring flaws.)

(Oh by the way, have you had a chance to read The Last Guardian yet? I have one last thought, but I'll put this in spoilers in case you haven't.)

Spoiler:

Arguably, by the end of TLG, Artemis has become something of a true hero the way we would define a hero. He does lie to Holly, so it's not like his personality and beliefs have completely changed, but even through the lie he's acting in a pretty much completely selfless way, to a degree we hadn't seen in the rest of the series. Though I also thought the scene at the end of TTP, where he takes the Cessna and leads Opal away in order to save JayJay and his family, also marked a significant change in his character.

“After all, absolutely no one can help but suspect a criminal, liar, and manipulator of committing crimes, lying, and manipulating. And of course, no one is more aware of that simple fact than Artemis Fowl.”

Opal sets into motion her most diabolical scheme yet, to frame Artemis and turn his closest friends against him. Only this time she has a new calculating partner who knows Artemis better than he knows himself. [Post TAC]

Rocket Axxonu wrote:(Oh by the way, have you had a chance to read The Last Guardian yet? I have one last thought, but I'll put this in spoilers in case you haven't.)

Spoiler:

Arguably, by the end of TLG, Artemis has become something of a true hero the way we would define a hero. He does lie to Holly, so it's not like his personality and beliefs have completely changed, but even through the lie he's acting in a pretty much completely selfless way, to a degree we hadn't seen in the rest of the series. Though I also thought the scene at the end of TTP, where he takes the Cessna and leads Opal away in order to save JayJay and his family, also marked a significant change in his character.

Yeah, I finally got TLG. Took Amazon 3 weeks to deliver though xD. Also got a signed copy of The Seventh Dwarf, and thought it was actually pretty good. It's mint condition as well :3

"The end: It's gonna happen! But in the meantime, its on with the show. On with the show!" -Devo

Wow, that's a long time. XD! (Amazon's usually a lot faster than that.) Nice! I didn't know those were still available. (I got a e-version of the Artemis Fowl Files in order to read the story, so not as exciting, but I guess more utilitarian since I have a tendency to highlight things for fanfiction purposes. x3) By the way, I can't remember if you've said, have you read Holly's captain's initiation story? (It's in the Artemis Fowl Files, but I'm not sure if it was also released on its own, like The Seventh Dwarf was.)

So, what did you think of TLG? (I guess I'll stick in a slightly forced, vaguely on topic question along with that. ;j Did you find it darker than TTP?)

“After all, absolutely no one can help but suspect a criminal, liar, and manipulator of committing crimes, lying, and manipulating. And of course, no one is more aware of that simple fact than Artemis Fowl.”

Opal sets into motion her most diabolical scheme yet, to frame Artemis and turn his closest friends against him. Only this time she has a new calculating partner who knows Artemis better than he knows himself. [Post TAC]

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