Thursday, April 19, 2007

Bagel Boycott Narrowly Averted? - UPDATED

Dag points us to an article in the Jewish Star regarding kashrut violations found at a local bagel store:

The sign in the window apologized for the inconvenience and said the Bagel Island store on Rockaway Turnpike in Cedarhurst was closed on the Thursday after Pesach due to “a plumbing problem.”

In actuality, the Vaad Hakashrus of the Five Towns and the Rockaways ordered the store to shut down for one dayas a penalty after one of the owners of the store, David Perez, was discovered substitutingcream cheese with an OU-Dfor the Cholov Yisroel cheese the store is required to use. The Vaad’s rabbinic administrator,Rabbi Yosef Eisen, confirmed that he personally made the discovery.

A spokesman for the Vaad,Rabbi Dovid Weinberger, said there was no cause for concern about the store’s kashrus. “Whatever needed to be corrected was corrected and the hashgacha continues with out any concern,” he said. Rabbi Weinberger, the rav of Shaaray Tefila in Lawrence, also heads the Rabbinic Liaison Committee of the Vaad Hakashrus of the Five Towns and the Rockaways.

Rabbi Eisen “was spot checking, and saw something that made him suspicious,”according to Rabbi Weinberger. “He saw a knife” on the seat of Perez’s car “and he found the cartons in the dumpster” outside the store. The cartons had containedthree-pound containers of Kosher, but not Cholov Yisroel, cream cheese. “When you take them out of the box they look identical to anything else and you would never know the difference.”

Questioned by Rabbi Eisen, Perez first claimed the cheese came from Ahava Dairy, a Cholov Yisroel producer. “What are you doing with a knife in the car and these cartons in the trash?” Rabbi Eisen asked, according to Rabbi Weinberger. “When he confronted him, he caught him red-handed.”

Another partner in the store, Joe Elbaz, confirmed that Rabbi Eisen immediately ordered the store closed for one day. Elbaz said that he felt that the incident had been handled in a “fair” manner. “It was a situation where we were without cream cheese,” he explained, and the delivery from Mehadrin, the usual supplier, wasn’t scheduled to take place until the afternoon.

“In a second of thought - the wrong thought — it was a stupid mistake.” He added that no customers were served the non-Cholov Yisroel cream cheese. “I presume that no one was served it,” said Rabbi Weinberger, but “I cannot ascertain that for sure.” Elbaz confirmed that Perez purchased two cases of cream cheese with an OU-D which were not Cholov Yisroel, despite signage in the store which tells customers that Cholov Yisroel is what they should expect. “It was not an attempt to defraud,” he said, and admitted that he was “upset” with Perez.

The Vaad has seen receipts which, Elbaz said, confirm thatthe store receives regular deliveries of Cholov Yisroel products from Olam and Mehadrin, two major dairy suppliers. Elbaz brought receipts with him to an afternoon meeting at Shaaray Tefila, Rabbi Weinberger said.

Perez, who is not observant, “is no longer permitted to be inside the store,” effective immediately, said Rabbi Weinberger.

Can customers trust Bagel Island in the future? “Honestly, yes,” said Elbaz. “Olam and Mehadrin are my suppliers. Period. What else can I say?”

Rabbi Weinberger confirmed that the Vaad considers Elbaz to be trustworthy. “We are not looking to hurt a man who owns the store and whose partner took him for a ride, who is himself ethical and honest, because of somebody’s stupid mistake and idiocy.” That’s why, Rabbi Weinberger said, the sign in the window referred to a plumbing problem and did not detail the true reason behind the closure.

“I can attest to it that any time something like this happens customers are lost and it takes a very long time to win them back. That’s why we prefer to say that it is closed for some other reason. It absolutely justifies it.

At least one community rabbi chose to discuss this incident with his congregants, and call for stricter standards than the Vaad presently requires. At the Agudas Yisroel of Long Island this past Shabbat, people who were present confirmed that Rabbi Yaakov Reisman reiterated his oft-repeated preference that his own congregants confine their patronage to kosher establishments with Sabbath- observant owners. For use by members of his shul, Rabbi Reisman updates a list which he prepared long ago of stores which he deems acceptable.

Rabbi Weinberger, the spokesman for the Vaad Hakashrus, was asked to respond. “So close down 70 percent of the kosher stores in the country,” he said. The result, he predicted, would be more Jewish people eating “traif rather than kosher food.” “Most stores are owned by non-Shomer Shabbos proprietors,” he said. “You get a mashgiach temidi and the Shulchan Oruch is fine with it. If the Shulchan Oruch is fine with it, you can’t negate it. “

I can't say that that this makes me 100% comfortable with Bagel Island - though I will say that the fact that the offender is no longer allowed on the premises does mitigate my discomfort. It is nice to see that the Vaad is on the ball with regards to their supervision. In the past, I've heard criticism of the Vaad's policy of only spot-checking of the stores that are under their supervision. However, this incident would seem to indicate that not only does it work when it comes to finding violations, it presumably works as a deterrent for other store owners who might consider trying to pull this type of shtick.

Dag takes issue with the Vaad's coverup of the incident, saying that he doesn't like being lied to - whether by the store owners or by the Vaad. I can completely relate to the visceral dislike of any type of dishonesty, but I actually understand the Vaad's reasoning on this issue. If the other owner of the store agreed completely to barring the violator from the premises indefinitely, then one has to assume that the problem has been dealt with appropriately. Dag also says that the Vaad's handling of this episode is surprising, especially since "they came down so hard on Glatt Emporium." However, to me, this sounds exactly similar to the way the Vaad handled the GG situation. I recall the same type of attempt by the Vaad during the initial stages of the Gourmet Glatt saga to keep the story quiet. Unfortunately, the story began to come out, and the Vaad had no choice but to confirm the details of the Kashrut violations in that incident, as they eventually did in this case as well.

One would have to assume that had the owner who committed the Kashrut violation had refused to follow the Vaad's directives to be banned from the premises, we would have been looking at a bagel boycott.

Also, in regards to mention made in the article of a certain local Rav who tells his congregants not to eat at restaurants owned by non-Sabbath observers? I have just one word in response to that "failsafe": Monsey.

IMPORTANT UPDATE: The Jewish Star has issued a correction on some details regarding the story above:

Correction

Sometimes even the most determined effort at fact checking goes awry and mistakes slip into the newspaper. That hurts. But when the names of two people become reversed — one of whom did something and the other of whom suffered the consequences — an editor's worst case scenario is born.We reported last week that the Bagel Island store on Rockaway Turnpike was shut down for a day by the Vaad Hakashrus. It had been discovered that OU-D cream cheese was substituted for Cholov Yisroel cream cheese, which is required by the Vaad. Accurate, so far.However, despite multiple conversations with rabbonim and with an owner of the store, the names of the two partners still came to be reversed in the published story.Joe Elbaz and David Perez — the partners — each confirm that it was Elbaz who brought in the OU-D cream cheese, not Perez. At the time Elbaz told us, "In a second of thought — the wrong thought — it was a stupid mistake." He now clarifies that he was admitting to his own action, and NOT referring to something done by his partner. He further explained that it was Perez, his Sabbath-observant partner, who was upset at HIM, Elbaz. The story clearly said that the reverse was the case.We deeply regret the error and apologize to both men.

137 Comments:

"Chalov Yisrael refers to all dairy products, including cheese and non-fat dry milk powder, which have been under the supervision of a Jew.

Under Jewish halachic law, milk is kosher only if it comes from a kosher species of animal (such as cows, goats, and sheep), but milk from a non-kosher species (such as horses, pigs, and camels) is forbidden.

In the past it was not uncommon for farmers to mix the milk of their various herds together, unbeknownst to their customers. Since it was conceivable to have a farm selling a mixture of Kosher and non-Kosher milk, Rabbis issued an injunction against the use of milk from a non-Jewish farmer; such milk is referred to as cholov akum. The restriction did not apply if there was supervision of the milking process by a Jew until the milk was sold. The milk itself is automatically kosher (so long as it is 100% from a kosher animal, namely, a cow, sheep, goat, or other kosher mammal) but the Rabbis' decree served to protect people from potential dairy deception.

Many Jews who wish to strive for a stricter observance of Jewish law, only consume dairy products that are supervised by a mashgiach and are certified with the label: "Cholov Yisroel". The retention of the Cholov Yisroel system is also related to the retention of traditions/customs, a central part of Judaism. There are also kabalistic reasons for being strict concerning cholov yisroel, which go beyond as to whether or not there is a possibility of mixing non-kosher milk."

so that you know i understand you were advised not to discuss the GG issue again but to you , the RABONIM and the community we know the truth.

That is a complete fabrication - I was absolutely and emphatically not advised to stop discussing the GG issue by anyone. However, I do have a policy of deleting posts that allege claims that I have been assured by the proper parties are completely untrue - and to my complete satisfaction.

You're welcome to keep commenting in regards to your opinion on the GG affair, and as long as you remain civil, they will remain posted. However, I will continue to delete any vendetta-driven false allegations.

how do you know what is TRUE or FALSE?? did you interview all PARTIES?

As I said, I ascertained to my own satisfaction. It doesn;t have to be to your satisfaction, as it's MY blog. Feel free to start your own blog, where you can set your own standards for what you feel to be true or false.

are YOU and the RABONIM not afraid of HASHEM will all of you answere it was to my satisfaction?

do you and the RABONIM consider yourselfs erlich?

do you and the rabonim consider your selfs YIRAI SHEMAIM?

are you so sure of yourself?

i will bli neder not look or write on this blog again,

but i will leave you with thisthere are INNOCENT people out there who were badely hurt with the GG story for the five towns and to the rabbonim and OM it is a story that JUST HAPPEND but to others it is a painfull story that is NOT FORGOTTEN and there are people who cry them selfs to sleep every night let me tell you that

Every Tear that goes out of a broken heart,hashem will hold all parties accountable for.

if the vaad is handling this situation just like they did GG, then they would be forcing the sale of the business to another party that included a vaad rabbi... Watch for the upcoming lawsuits. the wheels of true justice move slowly,,,but they do move. one just has to have faith.

are YOU and the RABONIM not afraid of HASHEM will all of you answere it was to my satisfaction?

do you and the RABONIM consider yourselfs erlich?

do you and the rabonim consider your selfs YIRAI SHEMAIM?

are you so sure of yourself?

I am quite sure that the answer regarding the allegations you have made here again and again are untrue. Yes, I actually try to ascertain the facts of the hurtful things I post BEFORE I post them. you should try it sometime, especially as you seem to be so concerned about the ramifications of your actions, and how they can affect people in the long run.

i will bli neder not look or write on this blog again,

but i will leave you with thisthere are INNOCENT people out there who were badely hurt with the GG story for the five towns and to the rabbonim and OM it is a story that JUST HAPPEND but to others it is a painfull story that is NOT FORGOTTEN and there are people who cry them selfs to sleep every night let me tell you that

Every Tear that goes out of a broken heart,hashem will hold all parties accountable for.

I am sorry to hear that, but it does NOT justify you falsely maligning others. You say wrongs have been committed, you are entitled to your opinion. But why in the world do you think the answer to those wrongs is spreading malicious false rumors of your own?

if the vaad is handling this situation just like they did GG, then they would be forcing the sale of the business to another party that included a vaad rabbi... Watch for the upcoming lawsuits. the wheels of true justice move slowly,,,but they do move. one just has to have faith. "

that's not true at all. do you know how many violations that vaad found before they finally forced the sale of GG? more than one instance. and it wasnt a matter of regular kosher creamcheese being substituted for CY cream cheese. stop opening cans of worms, it wont help anyone. definitely not the former GG owners.

How do YOU know how many violations ANY store has??? And in the case of GG,,,it may have been a KAJ chicken instead of Empire (BOTH CONSIDERED GLATT KOSHER) Also a store with 75 employees and over 100,000 square feet and in business over 25 years is going to have an issue or two over its lifetime...The vaad is trying to perpetrate their myth that they are so diligent. Time and lawsuits will tell..

To the person who asked, "Cholov Yisrael" means that the milk used in the dairy product was supervised by a Jew or a mashgiach to certify that nothing other than milk from a kosher animal was present.

According to Rav Moshe Feinstein, the prime halachic authority of the previous generation, in the United State we can trust the Food & Drug Administration's food purity enforcement to make sure that cartons labelled "Milk" really are "100% Cows' Milk", so we don't need the special "Cholov Yisrael" supervision which was necesary in the old country.

not that i agree, but r' reisman has an excellent point. there have been cases that dunkin donuts employees have been caught warming up thier lunches in the ovens. they sell ice cream that is only kosher from certain factories and they dont even know wich factory it came from.

lastly i am not in the kashrus business and i know this was dairy, but i feel if it comes to kashrus one strike and your out. no second chances.

The fact that one shomer shabbos person in Mosey caused the masses to eat treif does not change the fact that, generally speaking, one who is not careful about his own shmiras hamitzvos is not likely to be concerned with the shmiras hamitzvos of others. The only thing preventing kashrus violations at a non-observant owned restautrant is the possiblity of being caught by the mashgichim. Having a shomer shabbos owner usually adds another layer of protection of kashrus -- the conscience of the owner.

Monsey aside, A Shomer Shabbos person has a "chezkas kashrus", that we say since the person is a Shomer Torah U'mitzvos, we trust him when he says it's kosher, or cholov Yisrael, etc. A non-shomer Shabbos or a gentile does not have this "chazaka'.Yes, there are Shomer Shabbos people that have mislead and decieved the public, please do not bring them up. We are talking about a handful among hundreds of thousands.The issue here is TRUST. If he can play games with CY, he can play games with Kosher. We will not burn in hell for eating non-Cholov Yisroel, but he will for lying and cheating.I also find Rabbi Weinbergers comment that 70% of the stores have non-Jewish owners ludicrous. Look at BP, Flatbush, Williamsburg, CH, etc.Even in the 5T i don't think it is more then 20%.

I was just made aware that a vaad rabbi shopping at Brach's during Chol Moed found Chometz on the shelf (not Kitanoyot) plain old fashioned chometz.. how come the vaad did not publicize this fiasco... perhaps Brach's pays better..... Malkie

Thanks for the link....I wanted to add that the comment I made about GG was "I am sure people will question why the Vaad tried to cover for this, when they came down so hard on Glatt Emporium". I often try to frame arguments, even if I do not fully agree. I have often said I do not have enough information to decide the appropriateness of the Vaad in regards to GG. I do think that this is a legitimate question, and I am quite sure the issue will be raised

While I believe we have to trust the Vaad, that means we can NOT be Makil when they are Machmir (agree or not, I did NOT patronize GG when they forbade it). We CAN choose a higher standard than the Vaad employs (I, for one, do not eat Chabad Shechitah) IF there was cheating on Kashrus matters, I believe it is the Vaad's responsibility to inform the Kosher consumer so WE can make our own informed decision as to whether WE feel comfortable eating at that establishment.

I, for one, think that Bagel Island will need to show me they can keep their Kashrus straight for a long while before I will trust them again.

No, I'm not saying that Bagel island is not Kosher or that the Vaad made the wrong decision. I am saying that as the consumer, I vote with my feet, and I do not want to patronize any place that takes Kashrus lightly. And I would expect the Vaad to let me make that decision for myself, even if they decide NOT to withdraw certification.

Bagel Island has a new person working in there that I've never seen before - so I think the Vaad put someone in there full time to make pizza and to keep an eye on the day-to-day operations and report to them.

HMMMM...I wonder if rabbi eisen has any other sons to place in all the businesses under the vaad.. you are all aware of course, that rabbi eisen placed his own son in gg, ostensibly to supervise the produce.. however,, i am told he has missed bugs repeatedly and one of the old owners has to check up on him constantly.. NEPOTISM LIVES!! and, what about the brach's situation with chometz during pesach?? how come the vaad has not told any of us about the infractions. Are we still allowed to shop there or has yankie been told to sell his store, too...??????? LONG LIVE THE MONARCHY,,,SORRY, VAAD.

The only thing preventing kashrus violations at a non-observant owned restautrant is the possiblity of being caught by the mashgichim.

This is one of the most naive and ridiculous presumptions prevalent in the orthodox community.

Toddy's has been under rabbinical supervision for 20 years and has an outstanding record in kashruth and it has absolutely nothing to do with either the mashgichim or the "threat of being caught." It has to do with integrity, a character trait not exclusive to orthodox Jews.

My father left me a good business and a good name and I would not risk either one to make a few dishonest dollars by cutting corners on kashruth. In 1987, when we came under the Vaad we asked a ton of questions. We didn't learn kashruth at home from watching my mother or grandmother cook, we learned kashruth by asking questions of Rabbi Shaul Stern, Rabbi Simcha Lefkowitz, Rabbi Herschel Billet, Rabbi Kornmehl, Rabbi Moishe Teitlebaum and mostly from Rabbi Moishe Chait and Rabbi Ezra Cohen.

We learned what to do and why it's done and I'm pretty sure I know more about kashruth than most of my customers, except, of course, when it comes to meat and the rules pertaining to a blech.

I have earned quite a reputation in town and some people have a negative opinion of me and the way I run my business, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who considers me to be stupid. And that's the point. I'm not stupid enough to risk everything my family has worked for by playing it fast and loose with any aspect of my business, much less kashruth.

It's because of what's at stake that I don't trust my mashgiach or the Vaad with the kashruth of my store. They don't have as much on the line as I do. So I'm the one checking on the chef, I'm the one who has made it clear that any employee (Non-Jewish) who strikes a match or cracks an egg will be fired immediately, I'm the one making sure that all the ingredients have approved hechschers and I'm the one who pays the price when mistakes are made, not the mashgiach and not the Vaad.

So discriminate against me for not being shomer shabbat if you feel that is the right thing to do, but don't dare question the level of kashruth at Toddy's based on your myopic view of things.

JAY, I APPLAUD YOU!! INTEGRITY IS NOT EXCLUSIVE TO THE SO-CALLED ORTHODOX WITHIN THE FIVE TOWNS.. IT IS WITHIN THE HEARTS OF THE OWNERS OF LOCAL BUSINESS WHO WERE RAISED BY GOOD JEWS,,NOT NECESSARILY AS ORTHO AS OTHERS, BUT GOOD JEWS NEVER THE LESS...I SINCERELY HOPE YOU PROSPER AND ARE NOT FORCED TO SELL LIKE OTHERS HAVE HAD TO....ONCE AGAIN, THE CURRENT VAAD HAS DIFFERENT MOTIVES THAN THE OLD ONE DID.. gOOD RABBONIM LIKE RABBI CHAIET WERE FORCED OUT...HAS ANYONE BOTHERED TO ASK WHY AND WHERE HE IS NOW?? OF COURSE NOT. TO THE VAAD... YOUR ORIGINAL INTENTIONS WERE EXCELLENT...YOUR NEW REGIME LEAVES MUCH TO BE DESIRED AND WILL HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THEIR ACTIONS VERY SOON IN COURT... NO-SUE CONTRACTS ARE LAUGHABLE...

Right on! I know your reputation well, and can stand by it. I am not worried about preserving my anonymity enough to admit that I am a regular customer at your store (me and everyone else in the hood..). I was personally present when you kicked a customer out of the store for walking in with a Starbucks cup of coffee. She was visibly Orthodox (full sheitel), and you gave her hell for risking your hechsher by bringing outside food in. You were right, and I applauded you then as I do now. I will also admit to being in another local kosher restaurant (not incidentally, one with a Shabbat-observant owner), where a similar event occurred, but when the Starbucks-wielding customer assured the owner that he was simply "drinking tea", the owner allowed him to continue - in contravention of all Kashrut regulations.

"Like I tell my children, Mind your own business." Thats a sharp retort but it doesn't answer the question

Let's recall the question: But the question remains if your Jewish why are you not Shomer Shabbos?

Answer - Until you observe every mitzvah (all 613) in perfect synch with halachah, how dare you ask such a question or any question at all. Each person has their own religious level of observence as to each mitzvah. and only when you are perfection should you have the right to question another yid.

The reason why I asked was that there is a VERY POPULAR PLACE in the Five Towns (and I do mean popular) that is owned by Observant Jews - AND is open on the Sabbath.

And the two of them have a goyim front. I guess that's how they get past scrutiny.

Secondly, I do agree with the statement "Each person has their own religious level of observence as to each mitzvah".

I don't know why people are looking to fight left and right on this blog! This is pretty sad. You're reading into many things and making assumptions that are quite disturbing. I am not questioning one's length and depth of observance. It was a simple question.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and think clean thoughts without pre-judging and assuming. And let's all mind our midos.

1)"Until you observe every mitzvah (all 613) in perfect synch with halachah, how dare you ask such a question or any question at all". I do observe or attempt to observe every mitzvah (all 613) in perfect synch with halachah, and I do dare ask such a question. 2)where do you get the idea that "Each person has their own religious level of observence as to each mitzvah." 3) what is the source for "and only when you are perfection should you have the right to question another yid." what is wrong with questioning someone who is wrong even if you are not perfect yourself

We do not have the right to question anyone else as to his religious observance; it is really not anyone's business. "Why do you not wear long payot?" one might ask you. Is it any of his business? "Why don't you have more kavana when you daven?" is it any of your business? All that is between man and G-d. When the time comes only Hashem has the right to ask any questions; and surprisingly they may not be the ones you are asking!

We do not have the right to question anyone else as to his religious observance; it is really not anyone's business. "Why do you not wear long payot?" one might ask you. Is it any of his business? "Why don't you have more kavana when you daven?" is it any of your business? All that is between man and G-d. When the time comes only Hashem has the right to ask any questions; and surprisingly they may not be the ones you are asking!

"We do not have the right to question anyone else as to his religious observance; it is really not anyone's business" That is not true, every Jew has a mitzvah of arvus and "hocheach tocheach" which makes me responsible for another Jews actions. The example you noted such as long Payos is a stringency or custom which is not dictated by the primary halachah, but the minimum length for payos I would be required to tell another Jew about.

"Because it is only your humble opinion that they are wrong, if they don't feel that they are wrong that is also their humble opinion." That is simply not true, the Torah objectively requires shmiras shabbosand it is not contingent on my opinion

I would like to see someone stick their nose into my private business. I observe the way I observe. You don't like it, don't look at me. If you got a problem with that then you got a problem with me. Last time I looked, this was a free country.

This is not the place for this conversation. It is inane and will get you nowhere. However, feel free to start your own "Everyone Must Observe Shabbat Or Else " blog. I'll be sure to send any more conversations such as this one over your way.

Not really accurate at all. The Vaad does not require any store to be Cholov Yisroel, it just makes sure that if you say you are then you are.Thanks for clarifying that point. I was also confused that this "fact" was being disseminated. I was pretty sure that certain Vaad restaurant do, in fact, carry non CY items.

"This is not the place for this conversation. It is inane and will get you nowhere. However, feel free to start your own "Everyone Must Observe Shabbat Or Else " blog. I'll be sure to send any more conversations such as this one over your way."Orthomom I'm not sure not sure why you would call this conversation inane, there seems to be a serious dearth of knowledge on what is required of a Jew and some people who comment on this blog actually believe that a person can define for himself what Judaism is without regard to the requirements spelled out in the Torah. If someone reads these comments and it leads him to rethink about what his perception of Judaism is I would call that getting "somewhere". I also don't know where you got the "or else" in the hypothetical title of of the "everyone must observe Shabbos" blog I didn't see any threats or insinuations of in any of the prior posts, but I will concede this is your blog and you have the power to control the conversation.

When an OU hashgacaha is presented as the worst thing imaginable-we Jews are really in trouble.Is there no end to Eisen's Chicken Little?You close a store and stop a Jew's parnasah for this? How pathetic we are--and no one says a word...

There is a basic question of integrity at stake here, when someone presents himself as selling product "A" and is really selling you product "B" he is cheating you especially in this case when there is a defined difference between product "A" and "B". I'm not sure what the issue people have with vigorous enforcement, it is the peoples Vaad after all as it is made up of community Rabbis whose shuls are made up of members from the community. If you have a problem speak to your Rav.

I think everyone is overlooking a very important point of this story. The Vaad put up a sign on the store's window saying the store was closed due to a plumbing problem. Who and why did Mayer Fertig from the Jewish Star think that He had the authority and 'mentschlichkeit" to make this public and blow the whole situation out of control!! He was also responsible thru his paper in fueling the vast Loshen Hora, etc . in the GG situation.Also, I don't think that a Rabbi, who has a conflict of interest himself being in the "hecsherbusiness"should be fueling discent in our neighborhood.Let's strive for Loshen Tov.

Must be a Vaad Rabbi on the move to take over Bagel Island for his own-just like Rabbi Ginzberg did with Gourmet Glatt-now has a controlling interest .A disgusting travesty unfolding again.Who could it be this time -Rabbi ....

"I'm not sure this blog will change anyone's perception of Judaism, as for changing one's perception of Jews, well that's a different story altogether."

A truly wise statement.

"There is a basic question of integrity at stake here, when someone presents himself as selling product "A" and is really selling you product "B" he is cheating you especially in this case when there is a defined difference between product "A" and "B"."

It's as simple as that. Just like any other fraudulent business practice. How hard is it to say 'Sorry, we're out of cream cheese?'

"Who and why did Mayer Fertig from the Jewish Star think that He had the authority and 'mentschlichkeit" to make this public and blow the whole situation out of control!!"

My favorite quote of them all.

When Larry Gordon does it it's "investigative reporting." Or is it only investigative reporting when you're investigating the goyim ;-)

I wonder how many people actually know that OU DIARY is not allowed by VAAD?

Actually no one knows it, just like no one knows that 2 plus 2 equal 5. OU dairy is allowed by the Vaad in all stores that do not advertise that their dairy products are Cholov Yisroel.

Some stores have both. For instance you can have a pizza shop where the pizza is guaranteed by the Vaad to be Cholov Yisroel, but this same pizza shop can sell ice cream which isn't Cholov Yisroel as long as they have a sign stating that fact. Of course this does take advantage of all of the people in town who haven't learned to read, which seems like the vast majority if the contributors to this blog are any example.

"Can you all take a look at yourselves for just a second- this whole "controversy" is over OU-D cream cheese? The self-righteousness and sanctimony on display here is just outrageous.

It must have looked like this right before churban bayit sheini."

This religious one up man ship is out of control. The look How much more machmir I am then u syndrom is a terrible thing, and did not exist in this community until recently.

By my actions and lifestyle I considermyself to be a shomer torah and mitzvot.

I for one want to be free to decide for myself which stores I choose to partonize, but be sufficiently satisfied that if they are under hasgachah supervision they are acceptable.

I want to be able to walk on the street on shabbos, pushing my carraige and not be accused of being machallal shabbat.

I want to be able to send my child to any yeshiva/day school (MO to Yeshivish) and not be accused of being irreligious.

I want my wife to be able to wear pants of she wants and not cover her hair if she wants and not be looked down upon as a slut.

For many of these reasons I left Brooklyn. The uncertianity about which hasgachah was good, the comments about the eruv, the us vs. them yeshiva mentality and the pants and shaitel debate. It all arrived here too quickly.

Each person has religion in their heart and brain. Religious observence os a very personal thing. How dare there be a police of religion. If we lived in Afganistan we would be screaming about the Taliban.

Let me be clear, I deleted comments that alleged unverifiable rumors then, as I will delete now. I have looked in to some of your claims, and they have unequivocally been proven wrong. So really, you've already proven yourself to have a vendetta, and proven yourself non-credible. I'm certainly not going to keep posting your unverified "facts".

If you would like to state your opinion on the Vaad, feel free. However, the comments you keep posting rehash a rumor - which I have proven to my satisfaction to be false. So again, opinion: fine. Specific allegations of corruption that are false: not fine.

And for the record, I verified it with someone I trust completely, and who has no horse in this race. This person was aghast at the allegations, so he looked into them in a very persistent manner. They are false.

Please, you want to dedicate yourself to posting false allegations, make your own blog. THAT's what freedom of speech is about. Not your right to have ME publish anything you post on my site - but your right to publish what you wish on your own site.

orthomom... you really need to ask if naftaly worked in the kitchen of GG during pesach... he did and was paid by check.. why dont yu ask them in the office at GG? then yu will know the real truth. i feel bad that others are not honest over this seemingly petty point, it is just an issue of fact.

who cares? youre right, its a petty point. i have no objection to r eisens son getting temporary employment if he is qualified. nepotism is only an issue if there is a rule against it. people refer their qualified relatives all the time. i imagine its not that hard to qualify to work in a kitchen.

orthomom...just a thought before i go to work...when yu allowed all the "unsubstantiated" rumors to destroy GG in the first place, how is this any different? did you actually see the alleged Kaj chicken?? of course not, because it never existed. yet, all bloggers read about the rumor of a kaj chicken being sold as an empire. people believed it and yu perpetuated it thru yur site.. why is it now that yu feel that you must delete comments if you dont believe them? do you feel any remorse over yur blogs part in the demise of a family owned 25 year plus business?? if you do, i commend you for realizing that you had a big part in that fiasco..maybe that is why yu delete comments now if you do not agree with them. Please know that your sources have not been as honest with you as yu think.. it may be that the way yu worded your questions to them allowed them an "out".. you are a smart woman, i would hate to think that you were taken in by a poorly worded question and answer situation..

No worries, it wasn't a matter of a poorly worded question. Perhaps you must face the fact that your eceived bad information. As I mentioned a few times throughout the GG affair, if a Rav that has proven himself to me in the past to be reputable and beyond reproach assures me of either the falsity of a rumor or the veracity of a rumor, I am much more likely to believe him than I am to believe an anonymous commenter who has yet to produce anything more than shady insinuations.

Orthomom wrote: "If you persist is posting unverifiable harmful rumors, I will persist in deleting."

Interesting. So she herself saw the picture that Larry Gordon has in his hand with all the writing and phone numbers, etc. And SHE knows that ALPS and PIP and who knows whoever else is involved, and that ALPS has a desk piled up with old yearbooks from yeshivas waiting to use them against someone.

Interesting. So she herself saw the picture that Larry Gordon has in his hand with all the writing and phone numbers, etc. And SHE knows that ALPS and PIP and who knows whoever else is involved, and that ALPS has a desk piled up with old yearbooks from yeshivas waiting to use them against someone.

A) If you show me proof of a rumor posted here being false, feel free to send it over, and I will consider the evidence - as was done in the story that I keep deleting reference to.

B)In regards to the Larry Gordon story, we are not talking about an anonymous comment left on my blog, we are talking about a story run in a local reputable newspaper by a named publisher. Hardly the same thing.

C) It's a judgment call I make, and it being my blog, I am entitled to make that call.

orthomom..where is the alleged mislabeled chicken that you now claim you verified?? no one has ever seen it other than rabbi eisen.. even the other esteemed rabbonim have never seen it with their own eyes.

Jay Todtman said: "Toddy's has been under rabbinical supervision for 20 years and has an outstanding record in kashruth and it has absolutely nothing to do with either the mashgichim or the 'threat of being caught.' It has to do with integrity, a character trait not exclusive to orthodox Jews...I'm not stupid enough to risk everything my family has worked for by playing it fast and loose with any aspect of my business, much less kashruth....It's because of what's at stake that I don't trust my mashgiach or the Vaad with the kashruth of my store. They don't have as much on the line as I do."

Dear Jay -- I commend you on being a smart, honest businessman, who would never sacrifice kashrus at his establishment. Please understand, however, that while your integrity prevents you from cutting corners on kashrus, not all owners (both orthodox and non) have the same high standards as you do.

I would therefore like to clarify my comment, to which you responded. Any owner is capable of cutting corners. Logically, however (in my mind), a shomer shabbos owner, who observes the laws of kashrus in his home and business, and who was brought up in an environment that stressed the severity of voilating kashrus laws, is less likely to cut corners in this area. That is not to say that all non-obsevant owners will take kashrus lightly, or that all observant owners will take it seriously. Rather, with all things being equal, and without knowing the charcter or integrity of an owner, I would have a higher degree of trust in the kashrus of an orthodox-owned store than that of a non-orthodox woned store.

I apologize if I offended you in any way -- I intended to speak generally, not specifically -- and I am very willing to agree that once individual owners' charachter and integrity are introduced to the equation, it is certainly possible that a particular non-observant owner would be equally or even more deserving of customers' trust than an observant owner would be.

It is 100% true that rabbi Eisen's son worked in GG just before Pesach, just as he did last year. It isn't a matter of nepotism or of finding a job for your son, it was a matter of GG needing an extra pair of hands and Rabbi Eisen asking his son if he would help out.

How people can make something negative about any of that is beyond me.

Rather, with all things being equal, and without knowing the charcter or integrity of an owner, I would have a higher degree of trust in the kashrus of an orthodox-owned store than that of a non-orthodox woned store.

So cheese that is OU-D is not kosher enough. Did anybody have a scarlet T-- for treif, appear on their forehead. Did anybody die from eating OU-D cheese? This stuff gets more and more ridiculous as rabbis make things harder and harder. This justifies their being able to line their pockets even deeper.

I am sure that it's kosher enough for you. But I suspect Oscar Mayer Bologna is kosher enough for you. And I'd hate to see your reaction if Foodtown sold you a store brand when you asked for Oscar mayer. Probably a scarlet "M" would form on your forehead.

No worries, it wasn't a matter of a poorly worded question. Perhaps you must face the fact that your eceived bad information. As I mentioned a few times throughout the GG affair, if a Rav that has proven himself to me in the past to be reputable and beyond reproach assures me of either the falsity of a rumor or the veracity of a rumor, I am much more likely to believe him than I am to believe an anonymous commenter who has yet to produce anything more than shady insinuations.

How can you possibly blame me?

Dear Mom, In my childhood a loving term, but how dare you even reference yourself has a mom, not to mention an ortho one?You and others have not excercised your right to freedom of speech, but have placed yourself along with many respected Rabbonim in the position of the Vaad being sued. It is my opinion, and only my opinion with the GG situation brushed under the rug all things have returned to normal, peaceful, phony double standards. While I am a personally Shabbat Observant , many of my friends are not and I count them in higher regards than many of my Shul going buddies as MORE HONEST,MORE RESPECTFUL IN BUSINESS.ALONG WITH BEING A MENSCH!! Please forgive me if I have voiced not all our wonderful Rabbi's are here just for Hashem calling, perhaps the DOLLAR BILL help motivate the studies they chose in Yeshiva.I still have many Yeshiva buddies from my days, some have brought honor and respect to the communities they live within, others have been put in Federal Prisons for looting escrow accounts to selling liquor without tax stamps, to security frauds,actully, one of our biggest neighor as his name on a major Yeshiva. Dirty business, but frum, because "We can trust them".I really think the entire Five Towns Community should look up and see the light coming in between the trees before the leaves the sky??How a community could seat by, drink Cool Aid, because our beloved Rebbe as erred in the information provided is disgusting.Hashem gave us brains to use, common sense to help us judge. When did you stop thinking. Six million Jews, some frum,some not went into the ovens of the Shoah, because many of the Rabbi's[obm]told them to stay in Poland, Germany and many other towns and villages. ARE OUR REBBE'S ALWAYS RIGHT??? I don't believe in raking dirt just to say I did it, but you and others like you did because it was self serving, not a positive of our 613 Mitzvoh.Rabbi's make mistakes, they put on there pants just one leg at a time, like most men.So Mom, why are you being blind, or is it just good business...

5:11 PM: This is also the reason why the Rebbes are preaching that Yeshiva studies are the only way to go - it gives them additional income.

My parents partook in Torah studies after school 3 days a week and on Sundays. So did their children. Does that make us any less a Jew? No it doesn't.

I don't know what it takes to wake people up to reality in the Orthodox world. Everybody is too busy fighting with each other and trying to "one-up" their neighbors, that it throws the whole perspective out of the picture.

I go to public school meetings all the time, sit with those "public school parents" and enjoy collaborating on issues that are important to all of our children. Until all of us as a community come together, including the board members, these arguments regarding education will continue. And it isn't just the non-observant school board members that are doing this - I fault all of the board members for this.

here,here,, once again a person with a brain and eyes to see what the vaad and MO want us not to see.

they want us to believe blindly all rabbonim..including Kolko and Tendlar. they want us to believe those vaad rabbonim that bought into GG for themselves.. they want us to look away when they want a DEAL with food stamps ( i will give a store $$$ for cashing out my food stamps) how about all those on welfare, yet make 100000. plus thru yeshiva "dues" or tuition??

I, too, am observant. I do not, however, blindly follow anyone. rabbis included. they are MEN that put on their pants one leg at a time..just like my husband. they make mistakes,,they can also lie and steal...and give bad advice.

I, too, know many jews that are not mo, yet have more conviction and integrity than many of our so-called frum.

Make your decisions based on fact, not fiction, not loshen hora. make up your own minds based on your own investigations....not because your Rav says so...

I know this will fall on deaf ears.. which is why the plight of the five towns is what it is.

given orthomom's decision to delete all not so positive opinions on the vaad...many of you will never even see this...sorry.i guess the rest will have to wait for the jewish star's future coverage of lawsuits against the vaad.

'I am sure that it's kosher enough for you. But I suspect Oscar Mayer Bologna is kosher enough for you. And I'd hate to see your reaction if Foodtown sold you a store brand when you asked for Oscar mayer. Probably a scarlet "M" would form on your forehead'

What a load of self righteous crap. Who are you to judge someone you've never met?

What a load of self righteous crap. Who are you to judge someone you've never met?

I don't have to meet you to know you. I know, without meeting you, that you miss the point, probably any time someone makes one. The issue was not whether or not OU cream cheese is kosher, the issue was whether or not a storekeeper who promises to sell only Cholov Yisroel cream cheese can switch in non-Cholov Yisroel cream cheese when obtaining Cholov Yisroel cream cheese is not convenient.

People who keep Cholov Yisroel consider non-Cholov Yisroel products to be unacceptable the same way people who keep Glatt consider Hebrew National unacceptable.

Your comment about a scarlet letter appearing on the forehead, thereby mocking people who try and keep to a higher standard shows me that you are a small minded, shrewish type, who thinks he can say anything he wants and not be judged for it. I suggest that if you want to be judged favorably stop telling people what you think; it can only hurt their opinion of you.

ORTHOMOM, FALSE RUMOR? I CANT BELIEVE THAT SINCE I CONFRONTED THE PARTIES MYSELF.WHY DON'T YOU DO A MORE DUE DILIGENT APPROACH.GET A TAX ID RUN IT AND IT WILL POINT TO MANY PEOPLE INCLUDING THE ONE MENTIONED THAT YOU KEEP DELETING SELECTIVELY.ORTHOMOM YOUR INTEGRITY TO BRING THE TRUTH IS SEVERLY IN QUESTION!

i would assume that THE VAAD has given the bagel island owners the same ultimatim that they gave GG. sell or we will put you out of business.. maybe the BI guys should contact one of the GG former owners and join forces. Kathleen Rice should be investigating these new developments with the vaad.

the above post is totally inaccurate!!! if youo truly were "a lawyer in the know" you would know two things..1. it is a violation of confidentiality to have disclosed ANY conditions of the agreement and 2. Your info is incorrect....the % is much lower and the time provisions are way off!! how stupid of you!! keep passing around these falsehoods: if you are an attorney, you should be ashamed of yourself!!!!

the reason why its necessary to have a shomer shabbos owner in a kosher store is how could you trust a jew who doesnt even keep one of the most important laws of the torah with the kashrus of a store? of course as we know things happen with shomer shabbos owners as wellbut at least we should have some kind of guidlines . nobody is perfect but shabbos is si important in hashems eyes just look in the torah as to how many times the torah mentions about not braking the shabbos

NEWS FLASH!!!!Perhpas after now close to two years after the murder of GG, a family owned business that help establish this community perhaps we should now turn toward Rubashskin and the business practices and the FACT the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT has an ongoing investigation of the alleged activites of controlling pricing and crimmal behavior within our wonderful "frum only" membership. I personally can't wait to see the New York Times expose not only the tricky,cheating and stealing that one of your empowered "frum only" members as committed. I pray to live to see the day that the records of Rubashskin are exposed and see how many wonderful Rabbi's are on the payroll in "no show" jobs including Mr. Wonderful himself " Rabbi Yosef Eisen" In life one sometimes must have patience to see that justice is served,I personally especially since Rabbi Eisen started his demon like attacks against GG with the the spear that Rubashskin,though having 3 Supervisions sent in non-chometz, but NOT PASSOVER products into GG during Pesach ofwhich were recieved by the VAAD's own Mashiglach and the owner's were blamed for until a RECORDING, one of many that proved EISEN wrong.I find it extremely suspect after his efforts failed and he looked like a fool after Mark Bolender exposed the truth that he had to find anything,even a chicken, a kosher chicken,a mystery chicken, a chicken which never surfaced,a alleged customer who purchased this never appeared to face questions or produced a reciept?,for what? to re establish his character. May Hashem help us to forgive, but not forget the evil one's, even if they hide behind a black hat.Frum and crook doesn't equal Non-Frum and honest.THIS WAS JUST ONE BIG COVER UP AND SOMEONE GOT PAID MONEY TO PUT GOURMET GLATT OUT- I leave the rest to your thinking of who that may be and who paid for this to happen?, but one thing for sure he,they, must have been "Frum" because this puts them at level above approach. Shame on Orthomom if this is deleted,afterall you do believe in freedom of press.Perhaps this author will be quoted in the New York Times in the future.When Rubashskins go to jail and our acts of kindest wanting to send kosher food, please make sure it is under the Vaad of the Five Towns.