Think about it in 3rd person - I think ultimately (if) there is only one God (which I am convinced that there is), and he made the entire universe, I think that the only option left is for the people who He made to trust Him and in His greater purpose. What say do they have?

So you're happy being a puppet of said god? What a sad, defeatist attitude.

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But your risk/reward is far greater than my risk/reward. No matter what I happens after I die, I win! If I am right, I win. If I am wrong, who cares?

Reality Check, even if this life is all we get, IMNSHO it doesn't matter. We are star stuff. We already possess eternal existence, without the need for believing silly things. I was there at the Big Bang, and so were you. I even have a cast iron bathtub that was forged in the heart of a supernova. How cool is that?

And I can't imagine why gods would actually need to inflict pain and suffering to enhance the spirituality of their "children." (However, I might be tempted to take a Clue-By-Four(TM) to the virtual noggin of anyone who accused Me of such, causing them to see star stuff of an entirely different sort until their head cleared. )

For all you know, RC, you stand condemned before your god for even using Pascal's Wager, reducing faith to a cheap "just-in-case-so-I-can-protect-my-sorry-hide-from-Hell" bet rather than emphasizing more uplifting things. Thanks, but no thanks. If your god exists, I think it would at least be smart enough to see through such a transparently cynical ploy as that. And if it isn't that smart, why the heck would I want to spend forever and a day in the presence of its Divine Stupidity?

However, if one just drops the demonstrably silly idea of a "soul" -- As the average person can't even preserve continuity of consciousness through one good night's sleep, it's even less likely to persist for eternity -- it all comes out in the wash. Just put aside the idea that "you" need to be there for the duration, stop thinking in terms of "Me me meeee" and accept that you're connected to whatever will be there, and you'll be fine.

I don't see you going down that road, though. You seem to be strongly committed to the idea that you're going to live forever in some heavenly paradise. I just can't respect that idea, as it's primitive, unappealing at both an intellectual and emotional level, and thoroughly unrealistic in terms of what we know of the real world.

It sounds like this is the kind of rationalization that people who suffer injuries go through in order to mentally cope with it, so they don't spend their lives bitter and railing at the universe (or their god). On the one hand, it's good - nobody needs to spend their life being bitter over something that's beyond their control. But on the other hand, the kind of convoluted rationalizations needed here are kind of distressing. Like thanking someone who left you crippled for life - and had the power to make up for it, but didn't - because you figured out how you could live with it.

George Smith takes another angle on it, calling it the Atheist's Wager. Live your life as an atheist. If god does not exist, it won't make any difference; if god exists, but is just, you have nothing to fear; and if god exists but is unjust, you have much to fear, but so does the Christian.

It's a quote from Marcus Aurelius:

Right, I'm familiar with that one. Smith says somewhat the same thing, but it's kind of different in that (among other things) he goes into more detail about it.

Quote from: George Smith

I want to offer you a kind of counter-wager, called the "Smith's wager." Here are the premises of my wager:

1. The existence of a god, if we are to believe in it, can only be established through reason. 2. Applying the canons of correct reasoning to theistic belief, we must reach the conclusion that theism is unfounded and must be rejected by rational people.

Now comes the question, "But what if reason is wrong in this case?", which it sometimes is. We are fallible human beings. What if it turns out that there is a Christian god and He's up there and He's going to punish for eternity for disbelieving in Him. Here's where my wager comes in. Let's suppose you're an atheist. What are the possibilities? The first possibility is there is no god, you're right. In that case, you'll die, that'll be it, you've lost nothing, and you've lived a happy life with the correct position. Secondly, a god may exist but he may not be concerned with human affairs. He may be the god of traditional Deism. He may have started the universe going and left it to its traditional devices, in which case you will simply die, that is all there is to it, again, and you've lost nothing.

Let's suppose that God exists and He is concerned with human affairs -- He's a personal god -- but that He is a just god. He's concerned with justice. If you have a just god, he could not possibly punish an honest error of belief where there is no moral turpitude or no wrongdoing involved. If this god is a creator god and He gave us reason as the basic means of understanding our world, then He would take pride in the conscientious and scrupulous use of reason the part of His creatures, even if they committed errors from time to time, in the same way a benevolent father would take pride in the accomplishments of his son, even if the son committed errors from time to time. Therefore, if there exists a just god, we have absolutely nothing to fear from such a god. Such a god could not conceivably punish us for an honest error of belief.

Now we came to the last possibility. Suppose there exists an unjust god, specifically the god of Christianity, who doesn't give a damn about justice and who will burn us in Hell, regardless of whether we made honest mistakes or not. Such a god is necessarily unjust, for there is no more heinous injustice we could conceive of, than to punish a person for an honest error of belief, when he has tried to the best of his ability to ascertain the truth. The Christian thinks he's in a better position in case this kind of god exists. I wish to point out that he's not in any better position than we are because if you have an unjust god. The earmark of injustice is unprincipled behavior, behavior that's not predictable. If there's an unjust god and He really gets all this glee out of burning sinners and disbelievers, then what could give him more glee than to tell Christians they would be saved, only to turn around and burn them anyway, for the Hell of it, just because he enjoys it? If you've got an unjust god, what worst injustice could there be than that? It's not that far-fetched. If a god is willing to punish you simply for an honest error of belief, you can't believe He's going to keep his word when He tells you He won't punish you if you don't believe in Him because He's got to have a sadistic streak to begin with. Certainly He would get quite a bit of glee out of this behavior. Even if there exists this unjust god, then admittedly we live in a nightmarish universe, but we're in no worse position than the Christian is.

Again, if you're going to make the wager, you might as well wager on what your reason tells you, that atheism is correct, and go that route because you won't be able to do anything about an unjust god anyway, even if you accept Christianity. My wager says that you should in all cases wager on reason and accept the logical consequence, which in this case is atheism. If there's no god, you're correct; if there's an indifferent god, you won't suffer; if there's a just god, you have nothing to fear from the honest use of your reason; and if there's an unjust god, you have much to fear but so does the Christian.

As to the OP, your attempt at apologetics is laughable. If a god exists- and there is as yet zero evidence for such a thing- then it's not one that cares much about the existence of matter, let alone humanity. Almost the entire universe is utterly deadly to life as we know it: no air, no water, barely light that our feeble eyes can even perceive.

Reality Check, even if this life is all we get, IMNSHO it doesn't matter. We are star stuff. We already possess eternal existence, without the need for believing silly things. I was there at the Big Bang, and so were you. I even have a cast iron bathtub that was forged in the heart of a supernova. How cool is that?

Astreja, if that tub also has cast clawed feet, the afterlife will be hard pressed to be 1/10th as cool

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Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.--Marcus Aurelius

To bring it back to the OP. If the god would rather leave the amputee limbless to heal his heart, why not leave the cancerous cancerous, the blind blind, and the lame lame for the same reason? We hear Christians claim that a cancer, or a blindness, or a lameness was healed by their god all the time. How come the god singles out amputees for heart-healing ONLY?

If the god character magically restored limbs at the same rate that it supposedly heals cancer, this site wouldn't exist.

Schrodinger's cat is a thought experiment, a way of explaining some of the varagries of the math of quantum physics to people who don't quite understand the idea of a superposition. That's it. It is neither a real experiment, nor anything more (or less) than a sort of analogy for an extremely hard to grasp idea.

What does that have to do with faith, at all? In the real world, if you attempted to actually do this experiment, there is no 'quantum state of the cat'. Cats are far too large - there is only probability, an either-or position based on the random radioactive decay of some element. Besides, the cat can perceive itself, which makes the whole thing moot at this scale.

'Quantum' of any description is not a valid explanation for any kind of faith.

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"But to us, there is but one god, plus or minus one." - 1 Corinthians 8:6+/-2

Your article states [in part], "The love of God the Father for God the Son is the measure of the love of the Son for believers!" Well then God must not love us very much!

This is in direct contradiction with your own bible. Have you even read it? Jesus repeatedly states (supposedly he said this) that his disciples will (not might, but will) heal the sick, raise the dead, and do greater works than he supposedly did - if you are true believers (John 14, Mark 16) you should be doing this. "Healing their hearts" is the new Christianity of today. It's the whole touchy, feely, lovey, dovey, Christianity that focuses on the "turn the other cheek" bits and completely ignores the passages that stand in stark contradiction to your theology.

Sorry dude, the bible clearly teaches that you should be healing amputees (and tons other physical ailments - not just "their hearts"). If you can't, then either 1) you aren't a true believer (which means you aren't saved), or 2) the whole thing is bull crap. Since we both know that ALL other religions around the world are man-made (and false) - only you think just ONE is true - I'm going with option #2. Mankind has demonstrated (overwhelmingly) that he is willing to make-up bullshit religions in order to control people and pacify his fear of death. Christianity is just another false religion in a LONG line of man-made false relgions.

Your stupid He does. I am a Christian and i am a witness to creative miracles such as eyeballs growing into their sockets, legs growing out, bones being manufactured ect. your all liars, your need to have faith then God will prove Himself to you.

Your stupid He does. I am a Christian and i am a witness to creative miracles such as eyeballs growing into their sockets, legs growing out, bones being manufactured ect. your all liars, your need to have faith then God will prove Himself to you.

Andrew, that's fantastic! I quite agree that incredible things happen all the time. Just last night I saw once again the leprechauns that live in my tool shed - they trimmed the hedges for me and one of them broke a flowerpot by accident, but that's leprechauns, eh? I'm just so glad that you believe me about them - nobody else on this site of skeptics will.

I posted a picture of the broken pot and the trimmed hedges, but the swines here said that wasn't proof. I tried to take pictures of the leprechauns, but they are shy people who use their magic to ensure they don't appear in pictures. I'm so pleased you are here to be able to share your before and after pictures of the eyeballs, and the film footage of it actually happening - NOW we'll be able to show 'em! When they see the footage of an eyeball slowly growing back into a ruined socket, or legs growing out of a stump with the feet and toes forming slowly at the end, THEN they'll believe!

Really looking forward to the links you'll be posting! Welcome to the site!

Andrew, my green text indicates I am acting as a moderator. I realize you are likely a drive-by and not going to post any more. But I'd like to hope otherwise, so here we go.

The quote above is bad. For one, it's not going to make you any friends. For two, if you are trying to convince anyone of anything, calling them names is not the way to do it. For three, you have used incorrect grammar. It is "you're" not "your". "Your" is possessive.

Last, your comments are not very xian.

I have two bible quotes for you. Matt 5:43-45

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“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Luke 6:22

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Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil.

I guess you have blessed us.

Also, you make some pretty big claims. Here in this forum, you need to support those claims with evidence.

Matthew 7:1-2Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

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I am a Christian and i am a witness to creative miracles such as eyeballs growing into their sockets, legs growing out, bones being manufactured ect.

I am, frankly, quite tired of such claims being posted without evidence. Texts on a screen are not miracles.

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your all liars

Sounds very much like you're calling us fools. What does Jesus think of that?

Matthew 5:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I guess you should stock up on marshmellows.

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your need to have faith then God will prove Himself to you.

Many of us are ex-christains; we've already tried the faith thing. God did not "prove himself" back then, and he apparently has no desire to do so now.

I am a Christian and i am a witness to creative miracles such as eyeballs growing into their sockets, legs growing out, bones being manufactured ect.

I'm going to go out on a limb[1] here, and presume that you do not have any evidence to substantiate these claims. It gets tiresome to hear people offer such miraculous anecdotes, but when asked to provide evidence all we get is obfuscation and misdirection, if not outright insults and appeals to insanity.

I'm further going to guess that if someone from a different faith made similar claims but attributed them to another god, or even another version of your god, you would dismiss them as fanciful or demand the same level of proof that you refuse to provide for your own claims. Really, the whole "if you saw things my way, you'd agree with me" schtick is just old.

Im new here --just joined today --so please forgive me if the answer below has already been posted many times over. If it has then just ignore it. Thank you.

Why wont God Heal Amputees?

Is the simple answer that there are no amputees.The body we have are temporary.The soul is what goes to God and not this body.The soul is not handicapped in any way since it cannot be burnt, made wet or cut apart.

The soul is eternal and real to those who believe and so there are no amputees.

Im new here --just joined today --so please forgive me if the answer below has already been posted many times over. If it has then just ignore it. Thank you.

Why wont God Heal Amputees?

Is the simple answer that there are no amputees.The body we have are temporary.The soul is what goes to God and not this body.The soul is not handicapped in any way since it cannot be burnt, made wet or cut apart.

The soul is eternal and real to those who believe and so there are no amputees.

[[That is the dumbest answer I've heard yet. ]]You have to read the full answer.

The soul is the real you and this body is just a temporary tool to house your real ‘you’.The body which you care for and cry for is subject to death and diseases. No one should deny that. To say that god is going to come and give that extra part is your own foolishness. The body will be "subject to" whatever amount of karma you have accumulated (thats a whole different topic to get involved in).

So the whole question that “Why wont God heal an amputee" is foolish.Just think about it (as if I need to convince you of it) if God were to heal your body then he might as well heal the whole world.

I think people says all sorts of things. They say god did ‘this’ when things are good and they say god ‘that’ when things go bad. And god probably never had anything to do with either.

The reason why people say that is because it is their belief. Its not your belief so you wont say it and you wont believe it. But when your mind is convinced that god is controlling everything then this person will say these things. He is not wrong and you are not wrong. Its just that you both see cancer from different perspectives.A person who believes in God will find his mind focused in curing the cancer by praying to god. So when he is cured he can say nothing else except that god did it. He is right. An atheist will believe that the medicine or his own belief in the medicine will cure him. And it does. He is right.So who is wrong?

There is a school of thought that the mind is like a reflection of yourself. Your mind is your god and your mind is the devil. There is nothing greater than the mind. The mind is god.God is therefore real as your mind makes him to be.

Lets look at it this way. God has only ever given humans signs and the occasional miracles. Why occasional and not full time –well that’s another debate.

The only true sight of God is going to be heaven. This is because the heaven is seen as your real home and that of god.In heaven you wont see any cancer patients.So by that same reasoning that the soul is the real you --then yes there are no cancer patients.

This temporary body we are living with-- is subject to death and diseases. When we know that the body is temporary then we look after it the best way we can. When things go wrong with it then we try and repair it the best way we can.

But if the soul is the real body (which is the point i was tryign to make) then there is death desease or injury to it.

I think people says all sorts of things. They say god did ‘this’ when things are good and they say god ‘that’ when things go bad. And god probably never had anything to do with either.

The reason why people say that is because it is their belief. Its not your belief so you wont say it and you wont believe it. But when your mind is convinced that god is controlling everything then this person will say these things. He is not wrong and you are not wrong. Its just that you both see cancer from different perspectives.A person who believes in God will find his mind focused in curing the cancer by praying to god. So when he is cured he can say nothing else except that god did it. He is right. An atheist will believe that the medicine or his own belief in the medicine will cure him. And it does. He is right.So who is wrong?

There is a school of thought that the mind is like a reflection of yourself. Your mind is your god and your mind is the devil. There is nothing greater than the mind. The mind is god.God is therefore real as your mind makes him to be.

no, both cannot be right. However, are you positing that there is no god, just a figment of the imagination (the mind)? If so I'm not sure how you get all this soul talk. I assume youre not Christian because you say the soul cannot be burned when that is exactly what the mythological christian god plans on doing. If you havent done so, you can introduce yourself in the introduction forum and tell us about your beliefs so we dont have to guess. Welcome.

The only true sight of God is going to be heaven. This is because the heaven is seen as your real home and that of god.In heaven you wont see any cancer patients.So by that same reasoning that the soul is the real you --then yes there are no cancer patients. ...

Cancer refers to the state of the body. Amputation refers to the state of the body. And I don't think you've understood the question asked by this site. At all.

I am a Hindu and yes i need to update and learn rules on how to post in forums and even give replies –so apologies.

As to the discussion, and as a Hindu --what I say is from the many scriptures we have.

I am a firm believer that God exist; because I have read about God and heard about God and would say I have experienced God, (and you might call me a madman for saying that). But I still cannot claim to know all the answers. I can only tell what i have read, observed and experienced.

In my answers having told you that how I believe that both the followers of God and non-believers of God are right in their own minds, I merely stated that there is a school of thought in Hinduism who believe that the mind is the god.

Since I am a firm believer in God, then I believe in a soul and also that any healing or cure comes with the aid of God (and my karma) because i have asked for his help (as would people of any religion) and it is what I choose to believe happened (is god helped me).

Those who dont ask god for help and who are still cured are in my personal belief that their ‘good’ karma is the reason for their cure, but these non-believers dont think it has anything to do with god or karma. It is their belief and they are right from their view point.

I am certainly not going to argue with anyone and say that ONLY MY WAY IS RIGHT THEREFORE YOU ARE ALL WRONG (You see how arrogant that sounds). I can only tell you what is said in our scriptures and why I view the world differently to you.

I am a Hindu and yes i need to update and learn rules on how to post in forums and even give replies –so apologies.

As to the discussion, and as a Hindu --what I say is from the many scriptures we have.

I am a firm believer that God exist; because I have read about God and heard about God and would say I have experienced God, (and you might call me a madman for saying that). But I still cannot claim to know all the answers. I can only tell what i have read, observed and experienced.

In my answers having told you that how I believe that both the followers of God and non-believers of God are right in their own minds, I merely stated that there is a school of thought in Hinduism who believe that the mind is the god.

Since I am a firm believer in God, then I believe in a soul and also that any healing or cure comes with the aid of God (and my karma) because i have asked for his help (as would people of any religion) and it is what I choose to believe happened (is god helped me).

Those who dont ask god for help and who are still cured are in my personal belief that their ‘good’ karma is the reason for their cure, but these non-believers dont think it has anything to do with god or karma. It is their belief and they are right from their view point.

I am certainly not going to argue with anyone and say that ONLY MY WAY IS RIGHT THEREFORE YOU ARE ALL WRONG (You see how arrogant that sounds). I can only tell you what is said in our scriptures and why I view the world differently to you.

Its not a rule that you post an introduction, but it certainly helps the discussions because we would have the context for your posts. We would approach you differently than we would a Christian.

As for your explanation for cures, that would make sense in your context, IF "bad" people werent healed. Also karma would need to explain why they became ill in the 1st place. And the question still remains why god/karma doesnt heel and amputee.

I wouldnt say youre a madman for saying you experienced god, what I think is you had an experience that you incorrectly attributed to a god when there is a natural explanation that doesnt require anything supernatural.

The soul is the real you and this body is just a temporary tool to house your real ‘you’.The body which you care for and cry for is subject to death and diseases. No one should deny that. To say that god is going to come and give that extra part is your own foolishness. The body will be "subject to" whatever amount of karma you have accumulated (thats a whole different topic to get involved in).

Right here, I wonder if you've read all of my earlier post. I've already stated that your words are little more than woo-speak, and this "the soul is the real you" speech is just more woo-speak. By "woo-speak", I mean that your words are designed to sound magical, mythical, deep, and profound; but in actuality, they mean and say very little.

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So the whole question that “Why wont God heal an amputee" is foolish.Just think about it (as if I need to convince you of it) if God were to heal your body then he might as well heal the whole world.

Again, I wonder if you understand what the question is trying to get at. Notice, that your answers are designed to account for a god that does nothing. This god of yours (that does nothing) looks, sounds, and act exactly, I mean exactly like a god that does not exist.

When we hear of a god that does nothing and acts as though it doesn't exist, we start thinking that perhaps it's because, well... perhaps it doesn't exist. Do you understand that line of reasoning? (note: I didn't say agree with it, I'm just asking right now if you can understand it) When believers are confronted with the issue, they come up with all sorts of answers--except any that would demostrate god's existence beyond a doubt. They never offer to fly like Superman, lift an airplane with their bare hands, or healing an amputee. Instead, they offer things like "do not test the lord" or "it's your fault for being stubborn".

God is indistinguishable from a nonexistence thing, and I think that on some level, you're aware of that. Your posts anticipate that god will do nothing in the future, and this is based on a long, long history of doing nothing. (except, perhaps, for appearing on a piece of toast) You're not saying "Ok, lets go to a hospital, find an amputee, I'll pray for that person, and we'll see what happens." Instead, you talk of "the soul is the real you" and "accumulated karma", and there isn't even a way to measure things like that. (if there is, I'm willing to hear it) When nothing is forecoming, we simply fallback on the idea that there is nothing. If you could offer something concrete(again, such as the healing of an amputee), then we might be willing to consider the idea that something is out there.

.....any healing or cure comes with the aid of God (and my karma) because i have asked for his help (as would people of any religion) and it is what I choose to believe happened (is god helped me).

Those who dont ask god for help and who are still cured are in my personal belief that their ‘good’ karma is the reason for their cure.....

And the people with bad karma who also get cured? What is your explanation for them?

I've never really "got" karma. I understand the general principle - that good comes back to good, and bad for bad - but I've never understood how it works in practice.

Fair enough if the events returning on someone are instigated by god, because all he has to do is keep a long tally list and hand out the cures and diseases as appropriate (although then, why do bad people get cured? And why do good people get sick?)

But there's actually not that much god-granted karma effects out there. A lot more of the time, its people doing things to people......

Say Aaron is a good man, and is due some good karma. Does the universe just wait until someone crosses his path who is ready to dispense some goodness? That sounds a bit random.....but if a person is directed or influenced towards Aaron, doesn't that rather cruch their free will? Certainly if they did not choose to hand out the good to Aaron, then surely they do not in turn gain any good karma from their action?

Similarly, if The Gawd is due some serious bad karma, and I happen along and dish it out to him......does my giving of the bad mean that I become due some bad myself? Or am I due some good karma for sorting out the balance of the universe? Has my free will been overridded in order to dish out the bad? It would seem it had to have been, because otherwise karma becomes reliant on circumstance and chance.....and that in turn means that karma is NOT an automatic thing. It means I can do all bad stuff, store up a bad karmic debt.....and nothing happens (and similarly for good).

So if you could explain how karma actually operates, I would appreciate it - because I just don't understand how it is supposed to work.

However this is where you seem to have made an error in your assertions in the posts above (replies #47, #48 etc). If the mind is sovereign, god must therefore be subjective.

As god is subjective it can not, by definition, influence the world outside of the self (which is WWGHA)As god is subjective it will die with the subject.This is exactly the same as saying God (with a capital G) does not exist as the gods created as part of our conception of ourselves are limited by us, their creators.