The never-ending Veron discussion

Posted 01 December 2016 - 05:05 PM

McSoccer

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Though I would say an injured Grella as third option is not good enough. Healthy Grella with more offense from Muyl, or having Royer or Veron start probably is enough. However, that doesn't mean the team should reject any opportunity to get better. Better the team is the more unlucky moments you can endure and still be successful.

You have to believe that Grella was healthy in that first leg. If Marsch put him out there hampered or if Grella didn't tell anyone about the injury, that's pretty bad given we had Veron on the bench. Double bad considering how poorly Grella played and Marsch left him a long time.

Posted 02 December 2016 - 08:34 AM

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Royer isn't close to the level of those three.

I bet you last year their were people that thought Grella was better than Piatti. We don't know what Royer is yet. Shit, we really don't even know what Veron is as he's never been given a true run of games.

Posted 02 December 2016 - 11:18 AM

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You're right in terms of what are issue is, but you're wrong in the sense that management believes they have internally acquired solutions to solve that issue now that we have Royer and another year of Veron. So I can't really get mad at them for not trying to find a solution there, and I am willing to give them a shot to see if they are correct.

Veron was brought in very specifically to fill the hole we didn't expect Grella to fill. The 4-2-2-2 was as much an effort to fit Veron on the field as anything else, but Jesse never realy found a way to make it work. And Royer was brought in to replace Sam. Both of them can and should be top-tier MLS talent, and I am guessing a pre-season with both of them will make a world of difference.

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." - Iron Mike

Posted 02 December 2016 - 03:23 PM

ivo

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I meant our offense was unidimensional in terms of who provided the playmaking (Sacha) and who finished (BWP). And that was all great until it wasn't. And when BWP went cold and Montreal fixated on shutting Sacha down, our wingers were useless offensively.

I got what you meant, but I think this is narrative based on outcome.

Veron won a penalty (yes, he should have played more over the season and in the first MTL game). We had a bunch of chances, some of them created by wingers, others by Sacha/set pieces//turnovers/etc. Felipe hit the bar from a free kick. It wasn't Sacha and BWP creating and others twiddling their thumbs against Montreal.

It's hard to solve the best striker in the league going cold AND missing a penalty AND other people missing easy chances AND the keeper having a great day. I know I keep saying this but we created a ton of chances, we just missed them all. The problem wasn't wingers being useless, it was finishing.

Sure, better wingers might have meant we would have created 10 chances instead of 6 or 7 but we weren't lacking for chances in that series.

Posted 02 December 2016 - 04:17 PM

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I got what you meant, but I think this is narrative based on outcome.

Veron won a penalty (yes, he should have played more over the season and in the first MTL game). We had a bunch of chances, some of them created by wingers, others by Sacha/set pieces//turnovers/etc. Felipe hit the bar from a free kick. It wasn't Sacha and BWP creating and others twiddling their thumbs against Montreal.

It's hard to solve the best striker in the league going cold AND missing a penalty AND other people missing easy chances AND the keeper having a great day. I know I keep saying this but we created a ton of chances, we just missed them all. The problem wasn't wingers being useless, it was finishing.

Sure, better wingers might have meant we would have created 10 chances instead of 6 or 7 but we weren't lacking for chances in that series.

Where were the chances Muyl & Grella created in the playoffs? Felipe doesn't play in a role you'd expect that much offense from, so what you get is a bonus. You expect more offensive creativity from your wingers and we didn't get any for a long spell this year.

Posted 02 December 2016 - 04:19 PM

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You're right in terms of what are issue is, but you're wrong in the sense that management believes they have internally acquired solutions to solve that issue now that we have Royer and another year of Veron. So I can't really get mad at them for not trying to find a solution there, and I am willing to give them a shot to see if they are correct.

I don't blame management as much as Jesse. He has guys like Veron and Etienne at his disposal and instead giving those guys minutes, even if they struggle some to start, he played it safe with Grella & Muyl until he was desperate and started Veron.

Posted 02 December 2016 - 04:29 PM

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Veron was brought in very specifically to fill the hole we didn't expect Grella to fill. The 4-2-2-2 was as much an effort to fit Veron on the field as anything else, but Jesse never realy found a way to make it work. And Royer was brought in to replace Sam. Both of them can and should be top-tier MLS talent, and I am guessing a pre-season with both of them will make a world of difference.

Grella's stretch of success last year was a big reason we won the Shield. I agree the team would have take a step back, not necessarily a huge one, if they tried to integrate Veron more last season. That said, I think that run of games where Mike scored left and right has killed us in the playoffs the last two years. Marsch believes in Grella and kept playing him over Veron no matter how unproductive he was.

Whatever you think of Veron, is Grella THAT MUCH better that Marsch couldn't platoon the two? I give Marsch a pass on last season. He knew he had a chance at the Shield (and after all the off-season turmoil it was important) and went for it. This year though, once we were back in the playoff hunt, he should have been thinking a little more about the playoffs.

As an aside, Matt Doyle thinks Veron would be a good fit in ATL if RB leaves him unprotected. RB should probably do that and get Marsch a DP that he'll play.

Posted 02 December 2016 - 04:56 PM

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Grella's stretch of success last year was a big reason we won the Shield. I agree the team would have take a step back, not necessarily a huge one, if they tried to integrate Veron more last season. That said, I think that run of games where Mike scored left and right has killed us in the playoffs the last two years. Marsch believes in Grella and kept playing him over Veron no matter how unproductive he was.

The way you talk about Grella its as if he only scores by closing his eyes and hitting the net by dumb luck. With 16 goals over the last two years he's been one of the most consistent goalscoring wingers in the league, I think literally only Piatti has scored more from that spot. He went cold in front of net at the end of this year and Veron could have played more, there's not much to argue against there, but I think you're the only one who believes this cracks the top 5 reasons why we haven't progressed further in the playoffs, and I certainly don't think it applies at all to 2015. For all your arguments about Marsch needing to integrate Veron more in this year's series, we're still really just talking about getting him on 10-20 minutes earlier in the first leg. Do you really believe those 10-20 minutes without Veron are the main driver behind our exit?

FWIW Matt Doyle also once tweeted something to the effect of "Veron is not very good"

Posted 02 December 2016 - 07:19 PM

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The way you talk about Grella its as if he only scores by closing his eyes and hitting the net by dumb luck. With 16 goals over the last two years he's been one of the most consistent goalscoring wingers in the league, I think literally only Piatti has scored more from that spot. He went cold in front of net at the end of this year and Veron could have played more, there's not much to argue against there, but I think you're the only one who believes this cracks the top 5 reasons why we haven't progressed further in the playoffs, and I certainly don't think it applies at all to 2015. For all your arguments about Marsch needing to integrate Veron more in this year's series, we're still really just talking about getting him on 10-20 minutes earlier in the first leg. Do you really believe those 10-20 minutes without Veron are the main driver behind our exit?

FWIW Matt Doyle also once tweeted something to the effect of "Veron is not very good"

Grella has ability. Has he had the same level of success after defenses realized what he could? No. He's going to put away his chances. He just hasn't created many or seen as many chances recently. Maybe it's a sophomore slump, maybe it's a having a newborn and living in LI. He really has't been good since his run last year. Marsch has been playing based on that run, because it can't be anything he's done since. Although, Mike does look really sharp in training...

Posted 03 December 2016 - 10:10 AM

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You break down a team by putting pressure in multiple places, then taking advantage of a defensive breakdown. If you understand chess, look at the 3rd rapid playoff game (the decisive game) of the recent world chess championship to see how it is done in a game of strategy.

We tend to be one or two dimensional, which does not present the pressure that is needed to create a defensive breakdown.

Posted 03 December 2016 - 11:17 AM

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You break down a team by putting pressure in multiple places, then taking advantage of a defensive breakdown. If you understand chess, look at the 3rd rapid playoff game (the decisive game) of the recent world chess championship to see how it is done in a game of strategy.

We tend to be one or two dimensional, which does not present the pressure that is needed to create a defensive breakdown.

Posted 03 December 2016 - 01:50 PM

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Grella has ability. Has he had the same level of success after defenses realized what he could? No. He's going to put away his chances. He just hasn't created many or seen as many chances recently. Maybe it's a sophomore slump, maybe it's a having a newborn and living in LI. He really has't been good since his run last year. Marsch has been playing based on that run, because it can't be anything he's done since. Although, Mike does look really sharp in training...

I will cut Grella some slack about the second half of last season for two reasons: 1) He and his wife brought home a new baby which is very disruptive, and 2) he was playing with a sports hernia and was likely playing with a great deal of discomfort. I'd give Grella another year without a moment of doubt, although it's possible (likely) that if both Veron and Royer show well in preseason then Mike and Muyl should start on the bench, with Grella coming in as a super-sub. Sub-par season or not, I've never seen the guy quit out there.