A short interview with Frank Wakefield"Frank Wakefield Improves His
Mandolin"conducted by Jim Moss 1-20-98:Please understand that to get the humor of Frank Wakefield
you have to include his rathersophisticated use of hill talk. Therefore I felt it
necessary to include in the text his corruptionof the English language. If, at times, it
seems that the text is not making sense, read it againit is probably Frank talking backwards and creating a
double entendre.

NOTE: If
permission to reprint this is granted by owner, each part must presentedin its entirety with the "by line" and URL
"www.candlewater.com"

Jim Moss: When did you start picking with your little
finger?

Frank Wakefield: I started that about 1958. When I
started doing 2 parts at one time witha straight pick. I thought that there must be a way
I could do 2 parts with a straight pickand add a third part with one of my fingers on my right
hand. So that’s how I started foolingaround with it. For a while I used 3 finger picks on
my right hand and a straight pick…

Jim: Really?

Frank: Yeah, on that old green record I used that, that
way. That was nice, but I found thatI could do the same thing with one of my other
fingers. Ya know with my right hand… andget the same results with less effort.

Jim: Your not talking about cross picking?

Frank: Noo. Cross picking no.

Jim: So how would you describe that.. what your doing..

Frank: Let’s see… Its like Blind Boy Fuller… you
ever hear of him?

Jim: Yeah..

Frank: Like he was doing.. that style he started.. like
Atkins and Travis style? I heard someold stuff that he did.. ya know when I was a kid.
When he was playing what they call theTravis style. It was Blind Boy Fuller that I heard doing
that before Merle came along.I heard that and said “hay that would sound nice on the
mandolin too”. I took a straight pickand my fingers… with my right hand… It’s
got all those sounds now. Make my mandolinsound like more then one mandolin.

Jim: I see..

Frank: Sounds like it’s 2 or 3 mandolins.
Especially, when I do all of it with a straightpick and get them all going.. and then if I use that
same straight pick at the same time andhit the lead and the rhythm. That’s what is hard
for people. Its hard to teach that to peopletoo because your mind has to work about 3 different ways
at one time. You can’t let yourmind concentrate on one thing you have to concentrate on 3
different things at one time whenyou do what I do with a straight pick on solo tunes. When
I am picking the lead with the tremolo..

Jim: What’s an example of that?

Frank: There is a sample.. one that I did at the
Freight & Salvage… one of those Jesus tunes.

Jim: What about one that’s on record?

Frank: That’s on record too, it’s on Rounder, but
it is out of print.

Jim: So on your new record, “This is then” ?

Frank: Yeah, on that record there is a tune that sounds
like a classical tune I wrote.It sounds like a big orchestra behind me.

Jim: So what are you actually doing there?

Frank: I keep the tremolo going with a straight pick…
Then I move the straight pick to theG string also, and do a two stroke on that and the pick
still has the tremolo going on it.It sounds complicated… It is not anything close to
cross picking though.

Jim: Ok so then you will pick with your little finger
too?

Frank: Yeah.. Then that is a third part that goes in
… it is a harmony part.

Jim: Hmm… so how long did it take you to work this
up?

Frank: Oh.. Probably from about 1957 to about 1962 I
just kept fooling around with it.I started doing that.. I was the first one to ever play
the mandolin solo at a Bluegrass festival.Most people wouldn’t get up on a stage with a whole
band. I started doing that in probablyabout 1969 or 1970. Others have started to do it now
I understand.

Jim: I never heard anyone else do it.

Frank: ha ha ha ha ….

Jim: ha ha ha ha …. I don’t even think
I heard Monroe do it.

Frank: He came close to it with that “Last Day in
Heaven”.. you heard that right?

Jim: Yeah, “Last Days on Earth”?

Frank: Yeah! He just having the bass playing in
that, but I did it way before him. And thattune, I wrote some tunes that sounded an awful lot like
that and Bill heard em. I am notsaying that he is copying me, that’s for sure. If
he did he should because I copied him forall those years.

Jim: Now, was he the first one who started “Split
Stringing” ?

Frank: I believe he was… yeah!

Jim: Because, I remember being in the bus there when
you guys were doing that GreatAmerican Music Hall show… and you were opening for
him… probably in the early1980’s or late 1970’s. and Julia was there…
she had come inside the bus from the showand she said to Bill “Frank is doing Split Stringing!”
she said, “You have to go up and dosome Split Stringing!”

Ha! Ha!, and she said “You gotta do it!, you gotta go
up and show who is boss!” and hesaid “darlin, I was splitting strings 20 years before
they were born!” Ha Ha Ha Ha!

Frank: Ha Ha Ha Ha… Well actually, he did it by
accident on one of his records… I forgetwhich one it is, he accidentally did it..
because sometimes you accidentally hit that…

Jim: Sure, you just don’t fret it right.

Frank: Yeah, but actually, he was the first one to do
that.

Jim: Yeah, it’s a pretty cool sound. I have got
some tapes from the early 1960s… and Ibelieve I have some tapes from 1954 that have him split
stringing on “Get up John”.. Hedoes it on there right?

Frank: No… he doesn’t do it on that. He did
it with Doc Watson…

Jim: Well, he does it on “Dusty Miller”… I
have a live tape of “Dusty Miller” atBean Blossom with him doing it.

Frank: Yeah, on “Get Up John” he uses tunings on
that one… just like I did it on myrecord. I don’t play it like him, but it’s
exactly like the same tunings he used on it.Most people don’t even know how to do even that.
They tune the E strings the wrongway… it sounds close to it but it is not the way, but it
don’t sound very clean and clear.You see how clear it is on my record?

Jim: Right! What is the tuning on “Get Up John”?

Frank: I don’t know, I just have to do it.
Cause I never have figured that out. So whenI teach a student I show them with my finger… I put my
finger on it and they know what it is.

Jim: You know, speaking about tunings, I was back stage
at Berkeley with Monroeand band… Monroe was showing me “ReelFoot Reel” for
my Tanyards album… I wasback there recording this… then they went on
stage. So, Monroe wanted to play“Last Days on Earth”. He asked Kenny to go off
stage and get his other mandolin.Well, Baker said “why don’t you let the boy (me) get
the mandolin? Monroe justsaid “Nooo, I don’t want David (Grisman) to get that
tuning!” …………..ha ha ha ha!

Frank: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! I’ll be darned!

Jim: Yep! Wayne Lewis and Baker both told me this
when they came of stage..They just looked at each other cross-eyed!

Frank: ohhh he didn’t do it kidding either did he?

Jim: No! He was serious!

Frank: ohh that’s crazy! He is crazy to think
that Grisman didn’t already have itfigured out.

Jim: So, as far as picking styles are concerned, how
many styles do you have?

Frank: Well, I only have my own style now… I will do
Bills occasionally, causehe is the only one who gets real quality on the mandolin
the way I do and I got itfrom him. I gotta be honest about that.

Jim: What was it that actually allowed Bill to get that
tone?

Frank: His right hand! Only!
That’s the only way you can get it. He could do likeI can do now, make a cheap mandolin sound like a
Gibson! It’s all in the right handand you can only get that by knowing how to do it and
practicing it and have a goodear for real quality notes, you know the real solid kind,
not tinny sounding.. or blurryor nothing.. the real solid kind that sounds like taking a
sledgehammer and hitting iton a steel rail. Ha ha ha

Jim: Right! Well, I don’t want you to give up
any trade secrets here…

Frank: No No that’s ok, I tell everybody..

Jim: What actually are you talking about when you mean
your right hand.

Frank: It’s how loose your hand is, your right
hand. It needs to be real loose andyou gotta know how hard to hit the instrument and got to
teach yourself… youdo a lot of up and down strokes, Bill started doing that
in the later years. I useto play with a lot of down strokes the way Bill did, then
I came up with a way…You teach yourself how to get the same volume from a up
stroke as you do andown stroke. Then you can get a perfect tone out of
a mandolin that way. Thenit will be perfect solid and there will be no shy parts in
it. So you have to teachyourself how to hit the up and down strokes with the same
pressure. Say likeyou hit a G-string with an up stroke, the down stroke must
be the same tone asthe up stroke. Before learning this if you turn your
back and listen to someoneyou can hear the difference between the up and down
strokes. I suspect that’s alot the same as with the bow on the fiddle too.Jim: Yeah, there is a particular bow technique that allows
you to changedirections smoothly… the bow is an entire balancing
act. It has everything todo with your spine.. Anything you do wrong with your left
hand is generallycaused by your right hand or arm and the other way
around. Classical playerssay that when you are playing you should be in total
balance so that there is nostress on any parts of your body. If you have to put
energy into sustaining yourbody leaning forward or your arm at some angle, you will
soon become fatiguedand start to stiffen up. This stiffness will effect the flow of your body in the processof playing your notes. One of my teachers in
San Francisco in the 1980’s tooklessons from Heifetz in the 1950’s… well I scared him
into helping me… it seemsthat Heifetz would recommend that you not stand on your
right leg as it would causeyour right side to tense up.. and that is your bow
arm. Old man Suzuki said thesame thing… come to think of it so did Kenny Baker once
at Bean Blossom. Ha ha…Ya know, Kenny Baker doesn’t fess up to much, but he was
on to it.Violin playing is like yoga… and I can’t do it!

Frank: Ha ha ha…

Jim: Well, one of the important things that he
mentioned that relates to your point is…one lesson… I think it was one I got over the phone…
this guy was a great teacher…could teach over the phone. Well, he said, “
see that wood under your strings?What is it called?”. I said, “well it’s the
finger board” he said “right, that’s whereyour fingers go, not on the string! ”. He said
that “you only deaden the string withyour finger and not press the string down”.
Well, that was an awakening for me.It is similar in that it creates a totally different sound
on the fiddle.

Frank: That’s where I had problems early on, where I
meshed the strings down.

Jim: Yeah, well this is one of those issues where
classical guys… if you get themgood and drunk or something they will tell you about…

Well, getting back to the mandolin, when you lift up
your finger… do you haveany pull on your left hand… do you actually pull the
string with your finger as you lift it?

Frank: Not unless I want to use that for an effect…

Jim: David Thompson was telling me once that on guitar
that you actually pullthe string with your left hand… that this is part of
getting the full tone from aninstrument… I had mentioned that this teacher in
San Francisco suggested thisalso for the violin. So that when you lifted
your finger on the neck of the guitaryou would pluck the string in a way…

So in the case of the mandolin when did you start
learning cross picking?

Frank: I started learning that when I seen Jesse
McReynolds in about 1952.And I learned how to do it.I was really amazed when I did a workshop with Jesse, he
asked me howto do things… He asked me how I get all those
parts. Cause when he wouldplay a song with his grandson he said, “Frank Wakefield
does all this byhis self” ha ha ha.. That was funny the whole
audience really laughed. When hesaid that I said “Man I am really honored that our ask
me for something cause I woreout enough of your records learning how to cross pick like
you” ha ha ha…

Jim: That cross picking, he invented that…
Also, he does a lot of split stringing.

Frank: Yeah, he does it too. I only heard him do
it… actually I heard him doit before I did Bill.

Jim: Yeah, he does it on my album “Tanyards”.
He did split stringingand cross picking. To watch him right there in front
of your eyes issomething, he is like a machine.

… So how long should you give yourself if you want to
learn cross picking?

Frank: Shoot, you could learn that in a couple of weeks
actually, if you arealready a player… yeah. Course it took me
about a year to learn it, tryingto figure it out! Cause I didn’t have nobody to
show me. It was just a banjo roll.At that time I had never tried to play a banjo.

Jim: So when you play… I know we are working up
some gigs here, in theworkshops that sometimes can be setup along with the
shows, do you teach thingslike cross picking?

Frank: Yeah…

Jim: Do people have to ask for it?

Frank: No.. I just volunteer it all, if anybody wants
to learn it, I teach it to them in acouple of minutes.

Jim: Is this covered in some of your videotapes?

Frank: Yeah, cross picking and where I do the duo
picking… just me and peoplecan see it just me cause if I am the onlyest one on
the cabinet.

Jim: Right! Hahahah

Frank: There ain’t no trick other parts coming in
there. Ha ha!

Jim: Well, maybe they will come and see you when we are
out on the road here.Asking you to do different parts and show em how to do
different parts. You arealways pretty friendly with the mandolin players.. Always
willing to show themstuff whenever we have played. So I think if people
should come up and ask youquestions you won’t hit them with the mandolin.. ha ha

Frank: Nature takes care of you if you if you don’t
do people wrong… I honestlybelieve that you know.

Frank: I had a 1922. It was owned by Pea Wee
Lambert who use to play withthe Stanley Brothers on all their old records. In
1960 me and Red was playing…

Jim: And it was an F5, the one you had before?

Frank: Yeah…

Jim: Was it a Loar?

Frank: Yeah… We drove from Wheeling West Virgina, I
was living in Washington DC.Me and Red did the WWVA every other Saturday. Bill
Monroe was playing inColumbus, Ohio… ah… on a Sunday. He played a
little festival up there and this guyhad a mandolin for sale. This guy name Cid Campbell
told me about it. So we drovefrom Wheeling to Columbus… stayed all night there…
went to the festival the next day.The guy was going to take the mandolin to Bill and let
Bill see how much it wasworth… and ah… I should him $150 dollars
and he almost throughed it at me.. ha ha ha ha …So I took it back and let Bill play if for me and Bill
said it was a really good mandolin…It was just like his, it had the original strings on it
from 1923… they was rusty.. and Billplayed it and said it was good, if he hadn’t said it was
good I probably wouldn’t have kept it.

Jim: You mean to say it had the original strings
on it?

Frank: Right! It never been played.

Jim: huh

Frank: yeah…

Jim: I’m suprised it didn’t take the neck
off! Well, I guess on a violin it wouldhave taken the neck off.

Frank: Yeah, the neck has never been warped or nothing…
them strings been onit for that many years..

Jim: ah huh… How often do you change your
strings?

Frank: Ohhh… every two of three months..
sometimes six months, depends on…I was going to change them today I am going to play
Wednesday so I’ll change themtoday.. they’ll be broke in good.

Jim: So you got this mandolin and Monroe played it and
he liked it. So, what was thenext thing that happened to the mandolin?

Frank: After I had it for a year or two I took it
back home and I couldn’t make itsound like Bill’s mandolin…and I didn’t realize..
Bill said it is all in your righthand to get that sound. But you are always.. when
you are young about 28, 29 years old…you figure that you know more then everybody else… you
think you are going to makeit sound better.. so I sanded it off… put some paint and
stuff on it…

Jim: Paint? You sanded it off what?

Frank: I sanded it off…

Jim: The face?

Frank: yeah…. And I left it that way for
a while.. there are some pictures of mewhen it was blond.

Jim: uh huh?!?

Frank: Then I moved to Saratoga Springs, New York and I
tried to make it soundbetter and I invented bridges for it. That actually
improved the mandolin…

Jim: The bridges did?

Frank: Yeah, I made them out of epoxy and fiberglass…
and Guild guitar got mypermission to use some of the stuff I used and they never
did give me no credit for it.They used it in their saddles that goes across the guitar…

Jim: You should make up a product here… a mandolin
bridge.

Frank: Too late now, see I was working at Generous
Electric and I had access toall that stuff…bakilite… epoxy and fiberglass.

Jim: and that’s when you made it, so this bridge has
been on there since then.

Frank: Right.. yeah. I use to sell those
bridges. I didn’t actually sell them I actuallygave them away. And they never wore out.. the one I have
now you don’t even haveto sand the top of it cause it don’t wear.

So then I got up here and I was going to make it sound
better… So I put a coatof Spray Paint on it!

Jim: heeee heee heeheeeee

Frank: ha ha haa. Put it in the corner…

Jim: Which color now?

Frank: It was RED… ha ha ha

Jim: And you used what kind of paint?

Frank: Just a regular can of spray paint..

Jim: So where did you get this from… a car store?

Frank: Right!

Jim: Epoxy paint?

Frank: I am not sure if it was or not I don’t
remember. So I figure I’d dry itand bake and everything… I baked it for a while for
about 300… well about110 or 120 degrees something like that..

Jim: In the oven?

Frank: Yeah.

Jim: ah huh… that always
helps! Ooooohhhhhh

Frank: Actually did make it dry and thought it sounded
better.

Jim: uh huh..

Frank: Good thing I didn’t leave it in any longer
cause that other gluewoulda come loose.

Jim: Right!

Frank: Good thing I took the strings off when I did it
too.

Jim: Yeah, that’s for sure.

Frank: but anyhow that’s how I came about baking my
mandolin.

Jim: ha ha

Frank: I baked it for about 20 minutes. It was just at
the temperaturewhere it wouldn’t melt the paint, but it dried the paint
I had on the top of it.I figured that really did a number on it, but actually I
thought it sounded better…a lot of it is psychological…

Jim: Right!

Frank: and knowing how to use your right hand.

Jim: and then what happened to it?

Frank: So then for the next 20 years I used it
just like it was.

Jim: Red!

Frank: Yeah, in fact I forgot about it being red until
Del McCurry showed me…his son was 3 years old and he took a picture with that
mandolin and it was redwhen he was about 3 or 4 years old. I had forgotten
about it being red.

Jim: Then you painted it Black next?

Frank: aah, then when I moved to California, that’s
when Tod Philips removedall the paint and made it look natural.

Jim: But didn’t you paint it Black?

Frank: It was Black, I think I did that after the Red.

Jim: ah huh… and was that Epoxy Paint?

Frank: That was Epoxy Paint. Right….ha ha

Jim: hah hah hah hah..

Frank: ha ha ha … I am suprised
that that mandolin, like Ronnie said the othernight when he called he said that’s the only mandolin in
the world that is betterthen Bill Monroe’s mandolin. Ha ha hah

Jim: Well, it had been cooked more…

Frank: Yeah, maybe so.

Jim: Now, when anybody looks at the mandolin now,
you have this 5 minuteepoxy over where your hand comes down over the front?

Frank: Right. Yeah, that’s cause it was wearing thin
there. My arm was wearing it.I was afraid I was gonna to wear it through.

Jim: So that’s almost like a pick guard..

Frank: Exactly right.

Jim: on the back you have a seam that has opened up on
it?

Frank: Right… It didn’t open up … you
couldn’t see in it, but you could tell itwasn’t completely closed.

Jim: Oh I see… and you pored epoxy over that too…

Frank: Right!

Jim: hmm I see. Well this
aughta be enough to get them mandolin player’s ahh…