Sam Hodgett is 'Your Funnel Ninja.' He has worked behind the scenes on multiple six and seven figure online businesses and funnels, some of which have done six figures in less than 7 days. His passion is to help entrepreneurs unlock their digital marketing and double the size of their businesses in 12 months or less.

Do you struggle with getting your voice and your business out there to the local Twin Cities community? Don't worry, we've all been there and this podcast is ready to help. Welcome to the Twin Cities collective podcast with Jenna Redfield. Each week we'll be discussing topics that will educate, encourage and inspire you to grow your brand or business and introduce you to new ideas, businesses and entrepreneurs in the Twin Cities area hosted by Studio Americana in Golden Valley. This podcast shares tips and tricks to help grow your empire and have fun doing it. Hi, I'm your host Jenna Redfield, director of the Twin Cities collective and online community for local entrepreneurs, bloggers, small business owners and creatives. Make sure to join our Facebook group@facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash Twin Cities collective. Follow us on Instagram at Twin Cities collective and go to Twin Cities collective calm. To learn more about our upcoming workshops, subscribe on your podcast app and give us a review on Apple podcasts. Now sit back, relax and enjoy this episode of the podcast.

Hey, whats up guys? It's Jenna from the twins this collective podcast here and I have a special guest today Mr. Sam Hargett welcome What's going

Sam Hodgett 1:12

on? Everybody?

Jenna Redfield 1:13

I'm so excited to have you here. I we met last year through like a Facebook group. I think something Yeah. And then you came here to studio co work to do some days with your agency. Yo, Yo, man. Yeah. And I haven't seen your Facebook friends. So tell everyone what you do and kind of how we

Sam Hodgett 1:33

connected maybe? I don't know. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. So I,

I am founder of an agency called Smart ninja. It's kind of a traditional marketing agency. I've been freelancing for nine years, nine years. And so about three years ago, I decided to combine my love for marketing and my desire to be an entrepreneur and I said, let's start a marketing agency. So actually, just recently, I started I'm starting to do more

more coaching and consulting on the side as well for, you know, for, for digital marketing I work with we love working with small businesses, entrepreneurs, that have a passion and they want to get it out to the world. And they don't quite know how and so you know, there's a, there's a systematic way to do it. And that's what we were. That's what we do so and then yeah, we met, we met at Studio co work. And, you know, I not only was fascinated by the work there, but but even like the Twin Cities collective, like the fact that there's other creative people in the city, I don't know some of them. And I want to know, these people I want them to know means Oh, I

Jenna Redfield 2:39

think I think that's the one thing that people are always surprised about what twins this collective is there are so many people that they either don't know, or didn't realize that where everyone thinks they're on their own. They're like, Oh, I'm in Minnesota, which is not like the most la New York City. Right. Right. And I and a lot I find that a lot of the people that are doing really, really well on the marketing live in like the, like the middle of nowhere. Yeah. Because they can, right, you know, and so then they live like up to two hours from the city. So they like don't know anyone. And then they're like, Oh my gosh, there's so many people that even live in downtown, you know, in the cities, right? So you live around here, too. Yep.

Sam Hodgett 3:15

Yep. Live in Robins. Dale, actually grew up in Wisconsin, but what to school in Minneapolis met my wife and I'm a I'm a city boy now.

Jenna Redfield 3:23

And you just had a baby, right?

Sam Hodgett 3:24

That's right. Yep. And that's a boy. Or Yep, two boys. We have Harrison. He's four. And Landon is literally seven weeks as of the recording.

Jenna Redfield 3:32

So you probably been in it for a couple

Sam Hodgett 3:34

weeks. Oh, man.

Jenna Redfield 3:37

Like paternity leave. As an entrepreneur. How does that work?

Sam Hodgett 3:41

I did find kidding. I know you can't see my face podcast. But I kind of Hope you're joking. Yeah. There's, there's no such thing. No, I mean, yes and no. Are our businesses in a season of transition? And which also means like, there's no such thing as downtime, for sure. But I am married to the best wife in the world. And she actually encouraged me, and almost forced me to bring my laptop to the hospital when I wasn't my God. Oh, yeah, that's crazy. But yeah, we, you know, the, the joys of working from home and being an entrepreneur in that capacity is, you know, being able to to step in and help my wife out when she needs help. And, you know, take my son to preschool. And I have the freedom flexibility to do that. So that's one of the things I love about being an entrepreneur. Sure. And like,

Jenna Redfield 4:27

how does do you feel like it's a good home life work balance? Or no, it's tough?

Sam Hodgett 4:33

Yeah. In fact, one of the reasons I was initially looking at the space we initially met at was to have a place to go to that wasn't at home. Yeah, just you know, because every once in a while, you know, the toddlers running around and the baby's crying, and the wife is stressed out. And, you know, sometimes it's hard to focus. And, you know, especially when you're creating content, you kind of need some dedicated space for that doesn't include screaming kids in the background share.

Jenna Redfield 4:57

And I think that's why the rise of CO working has happened. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that more and more people are working from their laptops, just general, like even people that have full time jobs, right. You know, my, my, both my brother and my dad can work from home if they really had to, right. If there's a snowstorm or something. It's like, that's an optional story. I know, right? I know this. We're recording this in March when it it's like

Unknown Speaker 5:19

non stop, and I repeat a snow.

Jenna Redfield 5:21

Oh, my gosh, it's insane. So tell us a little bit more about you really focus mostly on sales funnels, which I think people freak out at that word, because they don't know what it means. Because I feel like it's like a newer term, or is it like sure the word digital marketing and social media is like a things are thrown around. But when it even me, I'm like, funnels, that I don't really quite know what that is. So can you explain what that is? Well, there's kind of two descriptions of funnel, okay.

Sam Hodgett 5:44

And I want to help people understand, it's part of the reason why I'm starting to do coaching and even like, hopefully, someday writing a book, but I can't even promote that song, you know, it's gonna call but you know, there's funnels in the sense of what people most people think of funnel, they think of some something like Click Funnels, Right Click Funnels as a software, really popularized the idea of a funnel. And in that sense, a funnel is a specific set of landing pages. And it's kind of usually a specific campaign in order to, you know, sell something or generate a lead, or, you know, you're trying, you have a call to action. Yeah. And so, you know, a typical examples of that would be a lead magnet funnel, right, you have a PDF or video, you want someone to access it, and then exchange, you're getting their contact information. It could be a webinar funnel, where you're getting someone to sign up for a webinar, they watch the webinar. And then on the webinar, you're selling a product or service or something. And so then you have a sales page, and then you have an order confirmation page. And, you know, all those kind of the webinar registration, the broadcast page, the replay the sales page, it's all kind of considered it to be a funnel. And the power of funnels is that, you know, you're not just sending traffic to your homepage, your website. Now, if you have your homepage optimize, properly, for conversions, you convert people, but most people don't. Yeah, so their homepage is like, Hey, we're really good at this thing and check out our About Us page on our Contact Us page. And that doesn't really do anything that's not, you know, the, especially with digital marketing, the ideas, you know, you're looking to convert people into the next phase of their relationship with you. So if they're not on your list, and they don't really know who you are, you ought to be aware of you. And then you want them do to, you know, subscribe to you the join your list, and then you want them to convert, whether it's a webinar tripwire offer, and then they want them to buy your core offer, and then your next offer, each of those phases could theoretically be a funnel. Now, our opinion and so the thing I'm most passionate about is that whole journey, the customer journey, in my opinion, is quote, unquote, the funnel, that big funnel and and it's important to understand that because when most people think of funnels, they're like, Oh, yeah, I'm going to slap together funnel, I'm going to run traffic to it, and it doesn't work. And the reason that doesn't work is because they don't understand the customer, they don't understand the transformation or helping the customer achieve. And they don't understand the journey that customers are going down. And that's what I try to help our clients and my students is to understand that it's, it's a journey. And you know, every business has a customer. And every customer has a journey, this applies to any business, not just my business. So when you understand that, you know, where what specific funnel fits in the framework. Okay, it's like a piece of the puzzle at that. So

Jenna Redfield 8:26

I have so many thoughts now, because I'm so like, I've struggled with this, actually. So this is probably something I mean, what I think I'm good at, is getting attention.

Sam Hodgett 8:38

And that's, that's step one.

Jenna Redfield 8:39

But then it's like after that point, people know who I am, they get the I get the attention, and I keep it but I don't know how to convert it. That's what I have been struggling with since I started marketing. Right? Is I'm really good at getting like connecting with people and getting them to my website, go to my Facebook group, but then it's like, what do I do with them? there? Because I feel like we have so many different types of people in our group. So how do you decide on a customer journey? Like, right? You know, there's so many different types of people that come to you. And I'm just, I'm overwhelmed.

Sam Hodgett 9:10

So yeah, when in some cases and I don't, I won't get too deep into the details. But in some cases, if you have, you know, multiple types of customers, you're serving potentially multiple products, you might have multiple sort of customer journeys. Say now when we work with a when we working with our clients, we're going through a strategy session will map out the journey. And so the reason I think journeys are so powerful and and I was recently at a conference called traffic and conversion summit put on by digital marketer, we're certified partners, a digital marketer, they, they put out some of the best training and resources on digital marketing ever. So if anyone wants to learn digital marketing, go to digital marketer calm, you'll, you'll, it's endless. But I was at their traffic and conversion summit and Ryan dice. He's the founder of the summit and of digital marketer. in there, they're big proponents of the idea of a journey. And and so one of the things that that they were talking about there is that, and they say this every year, so it's actually not news. It's not new news to me, but it's so relevant, important. I was just there a couple weeks ago, but marketing is a lot like or should be a lot like a human relationship. Hmm. Right. And so if you understand human relationships, there are certain steps and stages you go towards, right? And it's important to take the proper steps, you're not going to go on a first date with someone and say, Hey, what do you want to name our children? That's right. There's there's a sky called Desmond Howard. He wrote this book on human intimacy. And there's 12 stages of human intimacy. Stage One is II stage 12, is use your imagination. And what he says is, if you skip two more stages is considered assault, right? You're not going to look someone in the eye and start making out with them. Yes. And so the problem is, most business owners, most entrepreneurs are assaulted their customers, because they don't understand that there's a there's a process involved. And that's why the customer journey is so powerful. Because you're you know, in your case, right, you're getting people to, to become aware of you, right, that's step one. Step one is, and then step two is engagement. Right? You're getting them to engage with you. But then like, what do you Where do Yeah,

Jenna Redfield 11:19

right, that's

Sam Hodgett 11:20

my downfall. Yeah. So so we have an eight step process that that walks people through the journey. And you know, that for example, I will go through every day. And then the third step is subscribe, right? Or you get them to to join your list. Now, in your case, you have a Facebook group. So that's kind of their, quote, subscribing to you because you have a curated,

Jenna Redfield 11:41

but I definitely my my call to action on my website is join the Facebook group over join our email list, because I have found that once they join the Facebook group, they get that it's a community and they're more invested than just getting my emails every week. Yeah.

Sam Hodgett 11:56

Yeah. And then once you have them on your list, or in a group or, you know, for, for other entrepreneurs, it might be different way to build a list or build a community, it could be an in person, community, you must meet up Yep, have have a next step for them. Yeah, now you have your core offer, right? Let's say it's a service, let's say it's a product or something, right? And it's, you know, it's $500, $1,000, $2,000

a month, whatever it is, it doesn't matter.

You may get a certain percentage of people that want to jump right in and say, You know what, let me just hire you do it for me, most people aren't going to be ready for that. And that's why there are, you know, what I what I would say, are micro commitments where, you know, rather than having someone jump in and say, Hey, like, that you have a call to action says, Hey, if you want to work with me, one on one, hop on a call, we'll talk about it. But if you're not quite ready for that, you know, I have this course you can buy It's $37. It's low ticket. And, and then that's kind of a micro commitment, right? It's easy for someone to pull out their wallet and pay $1, $7, 27 or whatever, right. And that's, that's what, that's what we call an entry point, offer a tripwire offer, right, you're giving someone money, you, you're getting them to pull out the credit card, because as most entrepreneurs and business owners know, it's 10 times harder to acquire a new customer than it is to get someone to to to market to an existing customer. And the you also know that 90% of 90% of statistics are made up on the spot. So But no, there is there is there is science back on that. And and so it's important to build your list, it's important to get people to you know it, depending on your business model. Now, all you offer is a high ticket like $10,000 a month, like service, that's all you have. That's fine, but like, have something that they can take the next step. And maybe it's a video that explains what you do. And then they sign up for a call. Now, all of a sudden, like you added two steps in the middle, versus having them like sign up for service that costs a lot of money.

Jenna Redfield 13:47

Yeah, I think that makes so much sense. Because I think people they do skip to just like the sales pitch when they haven't built that relationship. First, I see it on Instagram a lot people are just go, like my page or, you know, check out what we offer. And I'm like, you need to like actually build a relationship with that account first. Yeah. And then I know,

Sam Hodgett 14:07

you're not running, you're not running around in the street shot, saying, hey, come come on a day with me like, yeah.

Jenna Redfield 14:14

And I think that people think that that's like directing. That's how it should be. And I'm like, do you would you click on that? I think you have to think about like, like, if you look at it from their perspective, and I think my my biggest stress and my biggest issue is I don't actually ask for the ask. I just kind of like, let it sit. And then I'm like, I hope they come to me now that they've been part of my community. I don't ever take that step to ask. But that's, that's the

Sam Hodgett 14:38

power of having that journey. Because let's just say your call to action in your group is like, hey, if you guys are interested, I have this free resource you can download. Yeah. Okay, so they go to a landing page, they enter their information, they hit a button, and then they go to the thank you page. Now, you could just give them the thing they asked for and they move on with their lives. And now they're on your list, and you could do something with them later. Or you can on the thank you page, say hey, while you're here, here's the next step. Whether it's join your Facebook group, maybe it's a tripwire offer, maybe it's sign up for a webinar doesn't matter what it is. It had give them something to do. Don't give them the download. Mm hmm. And I'm not saying you have to dissuade, but yeah, have them open up their email to access the thing so that they have to go to their email, they have to find it, they have to open it up email delivery ability, but then don't just deliver the thing they asked for. At the power of the customer journey, the power of digital marketing is you once they subscribe to you, once they're in your Facebook group, or they're on your email list, you have the ability to what I like to call indoctrinate them, okay? And so don't just send them the thing they ask for, like, send them a series of 3567 emails, that helps them understand maybe your journey maybe tells your story and and leads them into like, here's the solution I found. And here's why it's so powerful, right? So like, if you, if you're doing Instagram services, here's how Instagram helped me land a job or land this gig or whatever it is, like, end up on TV. And if you want to learn how to do this, by the end of that sequence, it's like you're you're you're telling the story? Yeah. And then you're like, you know what, there is a next step. And it's hiring me or it's buying this product. Yeah. And you're walking people through that? Because that's ultimately what they're looking for. Right. So

Jenna Redfield 16:30

that's kind of like a nurturer sequence. Right, exactly. Nurture sequence. And we haven't really talked too much about email marketing on the podcast, and I know people are interested in it. Yeah. What do you use for your software and all that stuff to set up all of the stuff that you do?

Sam Hodgett 16:41

Yeah, absolutely. So we are huge fans of Active Campaign, okay, because on the low end, you could get started for $15 a month. If you pay monthly, you can get a discount if you pay annually, but get started for as little as $15 a month. And we've used everything for small business, we've used infusion soft, we've used HubSpot, we've used Active Campaign we've used MailChimp I don't even want to mention mail to see is the most people use MailChimp, because it's free to their automation capabilities are very limited. And so you're not going to be able to do some of the more advanced automation and Active Campaign is like 90%, as powerful as something like Infusionsoft. But to utilize Infusionsoft properly, you're spending a minimum of $100 a month, if not two, or 300 or more, and you have to commit to 12 months. Yeah. And so for most entrepreneurs, especially people that are in this community, where they're starting out as a side hustle, or they're just, they're more of a creative that just understands that marketing needs to be part of whatever they're doing. Active Campaign is just really good balance, because you could start small at $15 a month, but you can go up from there, and it has, you can use it simply or you can use it powerfully. So that's definitely the one we recommend, you could start with MailChimp, if you're just starting out, and you're like, I don't even have $15 a month, that's fine. But my suggestion is, as soon as you you need the power of it, and you can afford it jump to something like Active Campaign, because it starts at $15 a month, and it's just the best.

Jenna Redfield 18:07

So what are the things that it has, that MailChimp doesn't.

Sam Hodgett 18:10

So I don't want to get too technical. But when you're dealing with marketing automation, and when you have a customer journey, right, we're there, the way we set it up is there's eight stages to the journey. And there could be more, you could add certain levels and everything. And so you know, and have six of those levels, they're already on your list. And the power of marketing automation is that you can segment your list. And so if you if you do it right now, again, this can get really technical and really advanced. But you know, every action that that somebody makes on your list, you can tag them, you can you can market. So you can go to a user profile and say, Oh, they open that email and they open that email and they bought this product is subscribed to that lead magnet, unsubscribe from that one. And they visited this website, and they, you know, all of those, he gets so much data on your on your list. So then when you're sending out an email, let's just say, you know, you had a, you did a survey as a as a lead magnet, one of the questions you asked was what's your current monthly revenue, right, and then you start you, you know, six months down the road, you're building, you're putting together a in person retreat. And you know that you want to target people that are already making six figures because it's going to cost money. And it's going to it's going to be more advanced strategies. And so you go to your list, and you're like, Okay, I got 10,000 people on my list, but I only have like 2000 that are local, and make six figures. So I'm going to send this email only to those 2000 people. And the power of that is those 2000 are much more likely to open that email because they're local in the night ticket. And then you're going to have a higher open rate, you're probably gonna have a much better chance of, of getting someone to opt in to whatever it is, versus those 8000 people. That would be Yeah, that may be potentially, yeah, unsubscribe. And so you're able to segment your list, and you can build logic into it. So you're like, hey, if they buy this, you know, let's say you have a lead magnet, and then you have a tripwire offer. Right for $7. And they don't buy the tripwire offer. So you send them kind of like a abandoned cart style, nurture sequence. And let's say through that sequence, they end up buying the tripwire offer. You don't want to keep sending them emails to buy. Yeah, and so so with with marketing automation, that that that has the capability, you can then remove them from that campaign, and move them into a customer campaign, so to speak, some of that automation stuff you're not going to get with, you know, some of the more basic email marketing tools like MailChimp.

Jenna Redfield 20:40

Yeah. So how I guess then what are the things that you sort people buy? Like, what? What are the things that you? I was gonna say? Because I have one list? Yep. And like, I probably haven't set it up. Right. So I have no idea from the current list. What I don't remember when people signed up sure how long they've been on the list where they came from, kind of just add them to my general list? Yeah. Um, no, that's probably wrong. But it's just I now moving forward. How would I moving starting with the email side now send? Like, if I do have a, I mean, obviously use analytics and stuff with Google. And you know, how many people are coming from the email, but at the same time, it's like, How do I know from is that what Active Campaign allows you to know which people by what

Sam Hodgett 21:24

yeah, oh, yeah. Because let's say you're using Click Funnels, and you have a tripwire offer some sort of offer, right? What doesn't matter what it is, most software's out there either have a direct integration, or you can integrate them with a tool like Zapier z API, er, that's how you pronounce it, because they say Zapier makes you happier. But they buy something on your on your funnel, you can connect that to let's say, Active Campaign. And then you will take them to say, you know, customer underscore product eight. And then you can then in Active Campaign segment, people that have just purchased the product or exclude them from an offer, because they already have the product. One example, an Active Campaign makes this easy, because it kind of have it, like they have a template for it. And you're not probably going to get this with something like MailChimp, but some what you know, first of all, there's a difference between email marketing software and marketing automation software. Now, I will say MailChimp, has gotten a lot better, they're adding more and more powerful features, I honestly haven't looked at in six months, I know they've added features. So it might be better. But you know, I'm just going to speak through Active Campaign because that's what we use. That's what we recommend most of our clients. And and I'll just say this, even our clients that are making multiple, seven figures, Active Campaign can scale well beyond that point. So it's, it's it's very flexible in that, but engagement, engagement, and what is one of the most powerful things you can segment people by because let's say you have a list of 10,000 people, but only 5000 people have engaged with you on your email in the last 30 or 60 days or whatever. Well, you want to prioritize those 5000 people. And so what that means is you're not sending every broadcast email out to all 10,000 people every time. Right? So maybe you have certain emails that you want to send your engage those because a you want higher open rates. So these are the 5000 people that have opened in the last 60 days. And there's 5000 people that haven't opened in 60 days. Now I know some people that take it to the extreme, and they'll actually remove you from their list if you don't engage. Yeah. And you know, some old school marketers might might start screaming, be like, No, no, no, you want a big list, you want a big list. But truthfully, just like with social media, you can have a million people following you. But if they're not engaging with you, they're not worth anything to you. There's no value there. And so there's an email, the value is an engagement. So when you can track that, and you can segment by that, all of a sudden, you know, if let's say you get a 10% open rate with 10,000 people, he just emailed over 5000 people, all of a sudden, you're going to get a 20% open rate or more. Now that that makes a huge difference when it comes to showing up in someone's inbox versus their spam folder or their promotions folder. Or, you know, just just Jenna And generally, you know, without making it, yeah, it's way technical that I even like to like when it comes to email delivery ability. open rates matter and click through rates matter. So not not only getting people to open your emails, but getting them to click through and, and go to whatever link you're sending.

Jenna Redfield 24:29

Yeah, we're going to take a really quick break for an ad and then we'll get back to talking about email because this is really interesting.

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Alright, we're back with the podcast with Sam. So let's talk about email subject lines. Yeah, I struggle with this so much because I'm I usually, I'm actually gonna send one out right after this interview for because I usually promote last week's podcast show, but then I include all the upcoming events, all that stuff, because I just, I can't email more than once a week, it's just too much for me. And even once a week is a lot, I think for even people in our group, I just feel like and maybe I don't know how often you email people or your clients, email people. But what are some of the like, subject lines that you are you tell your clients to do? Or what's kind of the draw in

Sam Hodgett 26:57

one example I want to give, it's not really an example, a philosophy that again, going back to the traffic conversion summit that I was at a couple weeks ago, one of the talks that Ryan dice gave was about doing the opposite. And so in marketing, sometimes the best thing you can do is the opposite of what you think you should do. So some of our best performing subject lines have been like, one word, or, or will accidentally leave a subject line blank. And then we'll get like, triple the amount of open rates we normally do because people are curious, like, why is it Why is it blank?

Jenna Redfield 27:38

Yeah. Or they made a mistake. Right,

Sam Hodgett 27:40

exactly. And in that case, it truly was a mistake. But it worked out so funny. Sometimes the the emails where there's a mistake in the subject line or something like it, they just people open it. And I'm not saying go out there and intentionally deceive people. There's too much that going on in the world, right? Like, don't pretend like oops, I accidentally saved wrong link. I can't tell you how many times I see that every single week. Like

Jenna Redfield 28:03

oh, they send to Yeah, like

Sam Hodgett 28:05

if you actually do something wrong link. Great. fix it. If you didn't actually send the wrong link. Don't pretend like you did, because people can read through that. And out of that before, oh, yeah, it used to work until everyone started. Okay. And it's deceitful. And I'm like, I'm all about authenticity. Like, be, you know, use persuasion, use psychology, but do it in an authentic way.

Jenna Redfield 28:25

I feel like that, to me, just makes them seem lazy. And like, are they like, you know, made a mistake? Like that's a bad thing.

Sam Hodgett 28:31

They're doing it because it works. They're doing it because people will open the second email thinking like, Oh, I miss something. There, but that's all they're doing it because it's effective. Now, deceit works, unfortunately. So if you want to be deceitful, you go ahead. But as far as subject lines, I have found in most cases, that short subject lines like 123 words total work really well. dependent, it ultimately depends on your brand, or your list, or your audience. I have found that sometimes, not being grammatically correct every time works, like don't capitalize the first word. Use a.at. The end of it. Don't capitalize any word or use all caps, or what starting to work more and more. It doesn't work out every every because everyone opens their email differently on different browsers, different devices, different mail clients. But using emojis. Oh, yes. Now again, sometimes they show up is like little question mark boxes, and you can't really do anything about that. But but even then it still gets people's attention.

Jenna Redfield 29:42

Another thing I've seen that I almost always want to click on is it says r e colon like a reply. But it seems like you've already been

Sam Hodgett 29:50

yelling to each other. That's one of those. That's i would i would put that in the category of somewhat to see Yeah, but it works.

Jenna Redfield 29:59

Like every time I see windows, I almost want to click on it. I'm like, Oh, wait, I don't think I emailed that person. Right.

Sam Hodgett 30:04

Right. Now, another debate that'll, that you will go back and forth is whether you should personalize email. So

Jenna Redfield 30:11

put their name on it, right. So sometimes when

Sam Hodgett 30:13

you're you know, having a lead magnet, however you're generating your leads, you know, sometimes you'll ask for a name, or sometimes you'll require people to enter their name. Now, if you're going to put someone's first name in the email, not every email software has a what they call a backup. So like it'll just be blank, which is like blank, right? Or it'll be like, Hi, first name. Oh, gotcha. Not Active Campaign does have a backup. And most software's do people just don't? Don't like. Yeah, exactly. Set it up, because it's left blank by default. But if you are asking for a name, and especially if you're requiring it, you know, you can personalize the email. And what I've seen working subject line subtypes is you can actually personalize the subject line. You can say like Jenna Did you see this thing that I sent you

Jenna Redfield 31:01

earlier campaign do that? Oh, yeah.

Sam Hodgett 31:03

Oh, cool. Most of them will? I mean, again, I don't I can't speak for every software, but Active Campaign certainly will interest and then that'll that'll. I don't personally see that as being deceitful because you have their name and you're calling the mountain. The other thing I've seen work really well is I think it's Dean Jackson talks about it, I could be totally off on that it. There's a number of gurus that have used this terminology, but it's the nine word email, and I cant rember exactly what the nine words I can find it maybe and give it to you for show notes. But, but it's basically like a short email. And it works for an existing list. And you're, you're essentially asking the question, like, Hey, I saw that you're interested in, you know, email marketing, or Instagram or real estate. Do you have any questions? Or would you like help with that, and that's it. Wow, no links to click, it's literally one sentence. And you don't have a huge like, signature, you don't have any graphics. And they're forced to reply. But the awesome thing is, people will reply to that, and they'll give you information. Now, that could be an opportunity for sales. But it's also an opportunity to get your customers words. And the thing that can be so powerful about marketing. And that's why it's so important to understand who your customer is, understand their, the transformation you're walking them through. Because then once you now you know what your journey is going to look like. And you know what language you can use when you're talking to them. And the best word you can use is from your customers. So getting them to reply can be really powerful. The other thing that I'm personally a fan of or prefer, is simple. Which is really hard for people in a group like this. Yeah, full of creatives. Everyone wants to have crazy fancy graphics, especially these days, like you can have somewhat responsive emails. And so depending on the device, it'll look different. And so what the the disadvantage to graphics before is that, like, if you're looking on phone, you'd have to kind of scroll left and right, you don't have to do that anymore with most of the tools out there. But I'm personally a fan of just straight up text. Maybe have an image or two in there, but you're not you don't have a huge header banner, okay, you don't have this crazy footer, you don't have any background colors. It's just white, black text, don't get any, don't get fancy with your fonts. Because let's be honest, majority of people aren't going to be senior fine, because most email, like most email platforms have a default font that they forced sometimes. And so especially with mobile devices, and so just use a default font use. In fact, some of the best email marketers I know, use what's called plain text email.

Jenna Redfield 33:36

Yeah, right. Does that right?

Sam Hodgett 33:38

No. So plain text, email, actually, links are hyperlinked. It's literally text. And if there's a link in there, you can't even click on it, you have to like copy the link and paste. So it's super old school. Okay. And

Jenna Redfield 33:53

it's fine, you know, so foreign to people.

Sam Hodgett 33:55

Yeah. Well, and that's the thing that's so different now. But again, some of the best Mark now, these are people that only do email marketing, and they only talk about that, and that's the thing. I'm not suggesting that everyone goes out and does that I'm not saying you shouldn't have links, buttons or pictures, but almost always a simple email without fancy crazy graphics and background colors. And for crazy fonts. A simple email will almost always beat out the fancy email.

Jenna Redfield 34:24

And is that in terms of conversions, and maybe even open rates? Or how do you determine that, like, well, it worked better, most of the time, it's not gonna affect open

Sam Hodgett 34:33

rates, because that's, that's where the subject line comes directly. But it will affect click through rates. And, you know, depending on what, you know, if you're getting people to, to, like a paid offer, or you know, whatever it is, it kind of depends on what your goal is for conversion, but, but yeah, just you'll, you'll get better retention and, and over time, it can affect your open rates, because, you know, oftentimes email, email, software's email clients won't open images. And so your your email won't even look the way it's supposed to. And then you have big old question mark boxes all over the place, and people are like, what the heck is this anyway?

Jenna Redfield 35:12

Yeah, I've recently switched to Squarespace email. Okay. Which I was like, What is like, you know, I met my MailChimp got hacked. So I just, yeah, it was like a terrible time for me. And I was just like, they like weren't that great. They basically were like, you have to make sure that there's no malware on your computer. Like, we won't even like open it until you like send us like screenshots that like we won't get infected. And I was like, I'm pretty sure someone just hacked my account. Like, I don't think someone us met, like, I don't know. But basically, I just was like, screw, screw MailChimp. But I was just like, I'm gonna find something else. And then what I like about Squarespace is it's very easy for me to embed my blog posts and my podcast. Sure. So it's like, for me, I like it, because I'm really just using it more as an update for the week. Sure, I just can really easily add all the stuff that's currently on my Squarespace, but I feel like I need to do more of the marketing side versus just like, yeah, like mine is like half marketing half like letter letter. Yeah, yeah, it's more of a newsletter. Like with like, like, one call to action be like, come to our event, write something, I need it to be more of a marketing thing, which I think I need to kind of switch over. Yeah. So you know,

Sam Hodgett 36:17

if you're, that the mistake most people make is they build a list. And they don't do much. Yeah, that's true. And so. And if they do something, it's usually in the form of like, Hey, here's my recent blog posts, or, hey, here's my podcast, or, hey, here's my monthly newsletter. those emails are fine. I, but you're not sending those more than once a week, or you probably shouldn't be. Unless it's, you know, unless it's literally like an RSS to your blog, and the email goes out for every blog post. I've seen people do that. Yeah, it's fine. It's usually for people that like their bloggers, and that's what they teach. And that's when they talk about, but what I found works better because you asked the question earlier about like frequency and like half an email, what do you say? tell your story. I mean, I keep going back to story a story is so powerful. And if anyone's wants to know how to tell their story, I would highly recommend checking out story brand by Don Miller. Yes. Love that.

Jenna Redfield 37:16

Yeah, I'd cast book I've talked about

Sam Hodgett 37:18

everything, everything. I mean, buy the book. Yeah, go to the event. I mean, when I'm when we're building out funnels or campaigns for clients will bring in, he's got a certification program. So yes, what was it called story brand guides, okay, I will bring in a story brand guide for a client because story is so powerful and stuff, it's that important. Yeah, if I have a client that's not good at telling their story, I'll, I will make them be good at it. Because your story like being real about your life, and it depends on your niche, right, or who you're working with, or who your customer base is. But oftentimes, you know, especially if you're in the online space, or you're you know, you're providing a product or service that helps people do more or less what you do or what you've known to do, or what you're good at, showed that to them, you know, and so like if you're, if you're an email marketing expert, right, talk about email marketing, right, you have a podcast, but if you're going to have an email, like, use that as a medium, one really powerful method that I recommend to anyone. First of all, as an entrepreneur, you should be creating content. Pick a medium that works for you and do it, you're doing a podcast. Some people are really good at video. So they're on YouTube. Yeah, some people are really good at writing. So they're on Facebook, you know, writing posts, or they got a blog, or whatever it is, right? It's it's audio video, it's written, whatever it is. Find your media, but create content, create as much content as you can. Whether or not you post it all. When you create it, create it, yeah, record as much as you can. Now, let's take you as an example, you have how many podcast episodes you have 91. So you have 91 podcast episodes. So you have 91 blog posts, you have 91. Well, you're not recording video, but you have 91 emails you can send out. So an example is one of my clients, his preferred way of creating content as a podcast, he records three to five episodes a week, he does a cross between kind of these like five minute like in your car, like talking bits, and then every like once or twice, once a week, he'll do like an interview, he'll bring in another expert, kind of like what you're doing today. And every single episode is transcribed. So he gets the transcription. Now he uses a service for that. Special, a specific like podcasting service. Gotcha. But if he didn't do that, my recommendation is Rev. com r EV. com. It's $1 a minute. So for 19 minute episode you got it's $19. It seems like a lot of money. But here's the thing. You have an email you just wrote. Yeah, right. You could turn this interview. Yeah. And even if it's taken highlights, now this is maybe it's a longer interview, you could take turn this into five or 10 emails. Yeah, send that out to your list as a series

Jenna Redfield 39:54

is launching transcription services. Awesome. So like, because that's the thing is I go back and I my old episodes, and I go, I have to listen to the whole thing to find that snippet of old you know, and I would love to read my audio in exactly. Because I think that's the thing is you can take quotes, make them Instagram posts from your episodes. Like there's so many ways to repurpose the content that you're making. And I I actually wrote a blog post and then just basically read it. And that was my podcast. Yeah. Cuz I was like, I want this to be an audio form. Right? Well, because it was a really good, absolutely. What came out today? Yeah. So it's just you know,

Sam Hodgett 40:29

yeah, so it's content syndication?

Jenna Redfield 40:31

Yes. Right.

Sam Hodgett 40:32

And that's the thing, like, find what you're comfortable at. If you're not comfortable video, don't do video. But if you are, yeah, I recommend video because then you can strip the audio, and then you could get the transcription. So you have audio, video and written. But when you're doing that, what I recommend is take the written, turn it into an article, if you will, maybe post it on your blog, but send it out as an email. And and especially if you're creating content on a regular basis, and especially like in your case, where you have a backlog already, yeah, you now have 90 pieces, you have 90 or more emails, you could send to your list as value emails. Now you're not linking to your podcast, you're not linking to your blog. It's pure value. You're telling a story, you're talking about a specific thing, here's a tip five things. Here's what I did today, oh my gosh, this sucked. And, and and you talk about headlines, like be emotional with it, like be honest about it, like, well, that sucked. I would open that up, I don't know what, you know, like, worst day of my life, or whatever it is, yeah. Because like, people want to know that people want to know what you're going through as an entrepreneur, especially if you're, again, if what you're, if your product or service has something to do with what you're good at, or what people know you to be, or do, then show that in real life, because it's not only going to make people it's going to allow people to know, like, and trust you more. And then when you actually do make an offer to say, hey, buy my product, or come to my event or join this thing. They're gonna want that because they already they they're experiencing Yeah, more. And so that's where email marketing can be so powerful.

Jenna Redfield 42:08

So I know there's a lot there's, I would say most of the people in our group don't even do email marketing, I'm sure. Because social media has kind of at least I've been focused so much on that, that I haven't even been promoting email. But like, everyone in the digital marketing space is like, get a list, you know, build your list. How do you even build that list? What are the things that you offer to get the email people? That's because that's what people come to me. They're like, Well, why don't how do I get emails? And I'm like, well, you have to give them something in exchange for the emails. People aren't just gonna go to your website and sign up for email. Exactly. You know, what are some of the

Sam Hodgett 42:39

weekly newsletter? tips? Yeah, you actually send that out?

Jenna Redfield 42:43

Yeah, I know. And that's the thing. And that's why people get frustrated because they're like, I don't have time or right. I had, I'm sure she'll be listening to this. I have a friend who she had like an email signup on her website. But she didn't realize it, she had over 2000 people sign up, and she didn't even know we were laughing so hard, because I was like you we have all of these people that have signed up and have never done anything. And this was like a like years of people signing up. Yeah. And I'm just like you like, you've been wasting that, that those emails at that point, you know, so it's like, you just a lot of people don't even know how to do the technical part. So so so what are the some of the things like I personally have a freebie library? So I have people sign up, and then they can I give I send them the password. Yeah. And then they can sign up?

Sam Hodgett 43:25

Sure. So it's like it's gated con yesterday? Yes. Yeah. So the the best example, and what we do for a lot of our clients is, is the idea of a gated content, or, or lead magnet, which is fundamentally the same thing. And so, you know, you want to be able to give something of value. But in exchange for given the value, you asked for contact information. Now, there are other quote unquote, lists you can build, right? Some people build Facebook groups, I would consider a list. But here's the thing, it's not a list. Because at the end of the day, you don't own that Facebook group.

Jenna Redfield 43:58

Yes. 100%. That's why I'm building a Facebook could shut it down tomorrow,

Sam Hodgett 44:01

and you're lost. Yeah, those thousands of people, all of a sudden, you can't reach them anymore. Yeah. So in email list is one of the only assets that you'll you can do a messenger list, right, you can do a messenger bot and you got, those are powerful. But again, like, at the end of the day, Facebook owns messenger, they can shut you down. Same with Instagram. Same with Instagram. Like,

Jenna Redfield 44:20

I remember when vine was a thing, yeah, and that shut down, right, you built a million followers, and then now you've got nothing. So it's like you have to cross pollinate your following. But also, the list is something that will transcend

Sam Hodgett 44:31

yours, you own the list, once you have someone's name and email address, and they've given you permission to reach out to them, you have permission, you can take that and move it into another email platform, like emails not going away. And here's the thing, like, I love social media, right? Like you need to be on social media. If you if you can handle a Facebook group, you should start a Facebook group, but only if you can handle it. Yeah. And like do that build a list build a following but but but again, like you said, those platforms, I mean, Facebook's Facebook could change in an instant a percent, right? Facebook's not probably going to be around 100 years. Now, you're not going to be around 100. But the point is, like, building a list is one of the only ways that you're going to own your own asset. It's It's so if you think about it from an investment perspective, you're you're hedging your bet against social media. So if Facebook groups, just if your script gets disabled, or groups just become an effective, nobody's engaging with them anymore. But then you've had this problem, people say, it's like, well, I'll build my list, but then they don't engage with their list.

Jenna Redfield 45:35

They just have it

Sam Hodgett 45:36

right. And then, you know, I've seen it where people and they'll start emailing the list, and all of a sudden, they're getting all sorts of spam complaints. They're getting less than 1% open rates and like they get shut down. Well, it's because you're not in you know, it's it's like it's a relationship, right? Go back to that customer journey. It's really, it's really mimics human relationship, right? You're not going to go on a first date with someone get their phone number. And then two years later, TechStars say, hey, you want to hang out again? like that just doesn't work?

Jenna Redfield 46:03

Yeah, you're right. Think of it like yeah, like a relationship? Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, because I feel that way. Oh, my gosh, I have so many thoughts. But I actually heard a story once about LinkedIn groups. Yeah, that they like, won't let us email like the people in them or something. And so the guy had built up like, 100,000 followers. And he couldn't do anything with it, because he didn't have all their emails, right. One of the things I do is I asked for their email when they join my facebook group. Exactly. Because I was like, I if they want to be part of the that, you know, they don't, I don't have forced them to write some people don't like email. I don't always like emails, I only subscribe to something that I really want, right? And then, but I really want to have their email if they want and find out about events and things are happening. So it's like people will are willing to sign up if it's valued to them, because that's the thing is, you get so many emails, right. And it's like, only the ones that you really care about what you actually open if you thought about it.

Sam Hodgett 46:56

Yeah. And that's the thing, like, you know, is even well as effective as it was 10 years ago. No. Are you getting over it? No. But at the end of the day, it is an asset that you own? Right? Yeah, it's not, it's not owned by a social media conglomerate, or Google, right. And so it's important, you know, my recommendation to anyone out there that may or may not have a list, and they're like, well, I don't want to do a ton of email, you don't have to do a ton of email, here's the bare minimum, right? come up with a lead magnet. Now in your case, even joining your Facebook group, ask for me email address. That's, that's a way to do it. Now. Yeah, in most cases, you're still manually adding the email, and then they get the email. And that's fine. There are some software's that help. But they're kind of break Facebook's Terms of Service. So it's hard to use them. But anyway, have something you can give away for value in exchange for an email address. Right. So if it's not a Facebook group, you can go on your website, and you can have a pop up, or widget on your sidebar, whatever it is, and give value, right. And so, again, going back to it's important, understand who your customer is, it's important understand the transformation you help them achieve, or the problem you help them solve. If you know that the problem you help people solve is to, to, to monetize a Facebook group, right, your lead magnet could be seven ways to monetize a Facebook group. It seems stupid simple, but it is, if that's the problem you're helping people solve, give them a piece of value, the best lead magnet, in most cases is going to be a PDF. And it's going to be consumable in five minutes or less. So it's not going to be more than a few pages, right. And you can use Canvas com to make it look good for free. You don't have to hire now, if you want to hire a graphic designer to pay someone 500 bucks to do it great. You can do it for free, too. And then you can sign up, you can use MailChimp, you can use Active Campaign, most website platforms will integrate with that. So once they sign up, they get the lead magnet delivered to them. I still recommend doing some sort of nurture or indoctrination sequence, send three to five emails there. Plenty of templates out there, I can get some templates. Yeah. And then. And then at the end of that, like have a call to action, but then now they're on your list. And so have a plan to, to reach out to your list. At minimum once a month. Yes, on bare minimum, yeah. And provide value, right? Don't let it just be a newsletter, but also just be a sales, right? It's not purely promotional. It's not purely informational. It needs to be value based, as well. And so do what you can to provide value. But again, if you're if you're doing this, if you're an entrepreneur, and you have a business you, you should be creating content, like we talked about earlier. So at bare minimum, take your podcast episodes, get the transcriptions, throw them up as an email, if that's all you can do, then do it. But but but find a way to provide value, you know, if you're doing Facebook Lives, and you have all these ideas for Facebook Lives, but you're struggling with email, same thing. Yeah. Now you could actually record your Facebook Lives, get the transcript, send the email, or just, you know, come up with the content, calendar, something to help you think about ideas. And then and then rather than always defaulting to say, going into your group or Facebook Live or whatever, maybe write an email instead. And I know some people where they have certain content that they give, it's only available on their email list. It's not actually syndicated from a podcast or

Jenna Redfield 50:19

something that's really important, because I think what I do is I just, I don't even give them much tips. I just say, Here's where to find everything. Because I think that even with our group, I struggle to get people to know that we're doing things, right. I'm doing so many things, right? That it's like, I'm just reminding people like, Hey, we just put on new blog posts, we just put out a new

Sam Hodgett 50:35

episode, you know, and that's, you know, in your specific case, I would say that's good. And that can be effective, and you want to provide information. And in your case, you know, you're dealing with mostly a local audience, and they're somewhat, you know, they they're like minded and everything's like they're going to be interested in those types of things. Yeah. And that's so that's good. Like doing that. Yeah. But But even if you're doing that, say, once a week, don't be afraid to enter a lock that with other types of content that's just purely value based. Yeah. You know, so like, if you're going to come up with a lead magnet, just write it out, send it as an email. Yeah, you don't even have to talk about the fact that it's like the podcast, right? If you take that transcription, turn it into an email, you don't have to reference the podcast, because chances are, you know, and that's the other thing about syndicated content. Most people don't consume content more than one way. So the people that are listen to your podcast, are not necessarily going to be the ones that are opening your emails all the time. They're not necessarily the ones they're going to be logging in your Facebook group, although they may be. And it's, and if they, if they realize that your post is the same as your podcast, they're not going to care. So you're not cheating or lying or deceiving. You're just putting your content out in multiple places. Because everyone's gonna

Jenna Redfield 51:50

everyone. Yes, I did a poll on my Instagram. I said, Would you rather do a video course or an E book? And it was kind of split? Yo, that was good for me to know, because I'm planning on launching book next week. I just want to, you know, have a $3 ebook just to have Yeah,

Sam Hodgett 52:04

well, and and I'm glad you brought up ebooks, because a lot of times people think of lead magnet, they're like, Oh, I gotta write an E book. And, and I would actually say no to them. Because a lead magnet in, in my opinion, a lead magnet needs to be easily consumable. And quickly, like five minutes or less is a good, you know, so if it's a video, a lead magnet is not an hour long video. It's a 10 minute video. Yeah, right? If it's, if it's a if it's a PDF or something, it's just a few pages that they can easily consume. Right? It's it's easily actionable to Yeah, right. So if you're talking about Instagram, like seven ways to grow your Instagram was given quick, actionable advice. Now, the difference between a lead magnet and an E book is a book typically goes into more depth, it's longer, it's maybe 20, 3040 pages, I would charge for that I would charge $7. Because they're getting more information. Yeah. And and, and the idea with an equal the lead magnet, is you want to give someone a little dopamine hit. So that so that it's an immediate application, it's quick to consume, they're going to want something more, right? If you if you hand them a 90 page guide or ebook, they're not going to read through that whole

Jenna Redfield 53:18

Yeah, not as like for Yeah, because they don't see the value, they think they want something quick, exactly. So like,

Sam Hodgett 53:23

you know what, here's this, here's the quick guide, if you want the ultimate complete guide with videos and everything else, $7, then it becomes sold. In your case, you have a you have an E book, I would consider that entry point, offer a tripwire offer, you're going to charge $7. for it, whatever, what I would do is take a splinter of that, create it create a lead magnet. And then I would actually run traffic or send people to the lead magnet. Gotcha. And then on the thank you page, you say hey, if you enjoy this, you should really check out my this ebook or this guide or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, cuz I made it through your sequence. Yeah, you get people excited about it, then you're like, hey, if you want to learn more, there's this guy. $7 guy, the download that goes dies deep and you get a bonus video, whatever, right?

Jenna Redfield 54:09

Yeah, I was gonna say my current is a hashtag guide for Instagram. Sure. And that's like, it's, it's Yeah, it's like kind of like an E book. It's just like a PDF created. And it's in my freebie library. But that's what I tell people to sign up to get gotten the freebie. And then another thing, I do stock photos. Yep. I decided I'm going to give away a few free stock photos. Nice. Because then letting people know I have a stock photo library where you can buy additional Yeah, really nice stock photo. Yeah, it's like that's another thing I just thought of recently. Yeah.

Sam Hodgett 54:39

Yeah, it's a it's the idea of splintering can be really powerful, especially if someone has more of a higher ticket item. You know, and it's like, well, how do I how do I come up with a lead magnet? What's really similar? Let's say you're let's say you have a course or service, right? You're done for you service charge? $1,000 a month? Yeah. Okay, well, not everyone can afford to hire that. So you put you put the front rich together? And of course, you charge $500 for the course. Right? six modules, 20 videos or whatever. Right? Okay, so maybe not everyone can afford that they're not ready for that yet. So then your entry point offer is a single module or single resource from the course. Right? It's it's a deep dive into hashtags, right? And then your lead Mainland's a splinter that and it's like,

Jenna Redfield 55:19

so it's kind of like steps like baby. Yeah,

Sam Hodgett 55:21

exactly. And then if you, if you think about it, you're now you're actually working backwards in the customer journey. Yeah, you're giving people a little bite size pieces, right. But you're leaving that you're not, you're not deceiving them, but you're giving them what they want. And then if they want more, they can essentially upgrade into the next thing. And what this is commonly known as is the value ladder, right, you have your low ticket offers to your high ticket offers. And the easiest way to do it, especially if you already have a high ticket offer is you split a piece of that out, you split a piece that out splintered piece that out. And then when it comes to content, you know, especially if you have a course in your case, you have your library, you have so many topics you can talk about for

Jenna Redfield 55:59

sure. I think that makes so much sense. I really have to end the podcast, though, because we're going over. So So you are an agency. So you offer what do you offer, like so that when if people want to reach out to you, what can you help them with?

Sam Hodgett 56:13

Yeah, so there's two ways we work with people we do we work with a handful of clients that are done free agency, we're building funnels, we're building the automation, we're kind of setting up and implementing a customer journey for somebody's business. We're also building out and I don't even have a name for it. Yeah, that's how new it is. We're building that kind of a coaching program, and eventually a course to help any entrepreneur who's either getting started, or, you know, the challenge of marketing is people try to find a tactic and they they're trying to do one thing and it's not working. They're they're doing Instagram growth, or they're doing a Facebook group. And that one thing just isn't getting them to where they want it might get it might get them some money might get some traction, they might build an audience in one area, but it's not going to get them it's not going to help them build a business. It's not gonna get the multiple six or seven figures. And that's where the customer journey comes in the framework. And so what we what we do is we teach people that framework, we help them understand it, and then at the very high level, we do it for them. Gotcha.

Jenna Redfield 57:10

It's kind of twofold.

Sam Hodgett 57:11

Yeah. So you know, the the best way to find out more information about me or what we do is just find me on social media Sam Hargett h o d g et the the agency that I found it is called smartphone ninja. You can post your Instagram or what's your Instagram? Samuel Hargett? Okay that's my that's my take for Instagram and Facebook and I'd say Twitter but I've never I've never yeah the only time I post on Twitter is when I'm like doing a contest he had posted Twitter

so Samuel hi Jenna you can find that

Jenna Redfield 57:43

in the post to

Sam Hodgett 57:46

my my personal brand is will send the Hodges calm for your funnel ninja calm Yeah. And we're going to be posting a ton of resources there in the coming months.

Jenna Redfield 57:54

I'm excited. I think you get so much value. I'm so excited for people to listen to this because I think I learned a lot. I feel like I'm asking the questions that I need for it. Yeah, it's been so great to have you on and guys for listening and I'll talk to you all next week.

Thanks for listening to the Twin Cities collective podcast with Jenna Redfield. Make sure to click subscribe if you haven't already. And make sure to leave us a review on iTunes. Thanks again for Ian at Studio Americana for producing this episode as well as Melanie Lee for designing the podcast art and thanks to Nikolai had less for the use of the song in the intros outros. Thanks so much again, and I'll see you next time.