Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

My comment was not directed at just you- every car buyer here thinks the older one is better for a while- then they eventually upgrade and like the newer one better. ..

Fyi Bmw owners...The bmw f30 and d45 numbers mean nothing to non-bmw owners - I'm a car guy - I like 57 Chevy, 72 camaro.. We all know you know what you are talking about but non bmw owners have no idea what a f30 is.

Gotcha. No offense taken. I used to always think the newer is better while having respect to what a previous model was & that people who complained that an older generation of is far superior to the new model were just being stubborn & ridiculous. I really feel that BMW has taken a completely new direction with the current generation 3 series that I personally do not like. Only time & the sales figures will tell.

E & F codes are BMW speak for certain body styles. The current 320, 328, & 335 sedans are known as the F30.

The previous generation (like I have) is known as the E90 and was produced (in sedan form) from model year 2006 - 2011.

From 1999 - 2005, the 3 series was known as the E46.

Before that from 1992 - 1998, the 3 series produced were called E36

And finally, from 1984 - 1991 (sedans), the 3 series is named the E30. These are the 3 box design BMWs.

Nobody is trying to exclude you by any means. I hope I cleared things up for you.

I got back in my car today after its visit to the dealer (new passenger side headlight assembly, trunk latch, negative battery cable, brake fluid, & cabin filter) and it just feels right. My 230 hp car is far from the fastest car on the road, but it is just so smooth & so right.

I always wanted new versions and was excited with every new launch. I'm an option hog, newer cars tend to have more equipment standard and more optional. They usually have stronger engines, better transmissions. The chassis are usually stiffer and the ride is usually a bit more refined within each model's target audience. All those were reasons why I liked new models over outgoing ones. New 3-series improves a lot of things on paper - it has more torque (328 anyway), better automatic transmission, it finally has rear split folddown seat standard (but of course 320i does not). It is larger, which majority wanted, but I did not.

However, there are significant steps back in this model that are important for many who bought previous generations - disastorous steering feedback (I could not believe how bad it was - if it were a Buick I'd say fine, that's how GM positions those cars, but for BMW it is TERRIBLE). The interior has been downgraded - larger space came at cost of quality of plastic switches (they feel harder, more like downscale car) and even iDrive does not feel the same - my old one has a "graded" hump feel with each notch, the new one is a flat ratchet. I know it's nitpicking, but I feel entitled to nitpick a car that came with almost 5 grand price increase (effectively) over old model. Yes, the price is another issue - it is flat out ridiculous. Well equipped 328 goes over 50 grand in a snap (my 328 wagon with Nav, convenience pack, sports pack and premium pack stickered at $46K), 335 shoots to almost 60 grand if you like any of nice conveniences. 50/60 grand for THIS???

BTW, the straight six/ vs turbo - I don't expect you to understand this and you don't have to agree. Engine audio effects are indeed non-essential parts of driving experience. All I can tell you I hear the difference and I like the old one more. You don't care and I do. Both is OK. People have different levels of sound sensitivity and awareness.

It will take some time to admit it by the fan base, but F30 is a letdown when it comes to sports sedan. That is an opinion, of course,

I think the true enthusiast already knew this... But it's the things to come, if car companies want to make the new EPA numbers something has to go for now, but with the new wave of Diesel engine comes, the tide might turn the other way.Once the CAFE numbers increase, we can only hope.

In reference to the turbo 6, my comment was in reference that the BMW lost the test by ONE point, but was fastest of all the cars. It lost because of handling...

I get there are different model codes for cars- infact I'm sure Nissan and ford have different codes for a maxima and the fusion. The fact that BMW enthusiasts use these terms like they invented codes seem silly and douchie to me. I will print out the descriptions above so I can follow some of the posts on BMWs; thanks.

I don't think BMW or any car company at this point cares about the enthusiasts owner at all. It's all about cheap lease deals and high demand - which BMW has cornered the market in getting people in - I think they will do very well with this new redo as it prob addresses issues with the prev (f30?) car had that the non enthusiast mass lease buyers complained about- and blame you have the ultimate leasing machine.

You are right that BMW cares about 2 things (like every other automaker), selling as many cars as they can and making as much profit off of those cars. As much as we love certain cars, they have to change. They have to add more safety features. They have to add more luxury goodies. They have to add different wheels. They have to change for the sake of change.

Absolutely. However, there is a danger when all brands converge into one. Over long periods, regardless of product or service, it is those companies that have something that differentiates them from the crowd that win. Superior services, lowest price, best value (as price/content), best quality (whichever way one defines quality), etc. Prior the pedal fiasco, Toyota was uncontested reliability leader - their cars never had cutting edge equipment, never been safest in the market, or offered best value in terms of price of content. But they delivered expected features on time. When nobody asked for side impact airbags or ABS, they were either unavailable, or never delivered, when those features because standard of service, Toyota did not procrastrinate.

So after gutting out the steering feedback, what's left there in BMW cars? Good engine and transmission combo with really good mpg, decent build quality, brand cache. But Audi makes nicer interiors, Mercedes makes nicer ride and still has better brand recognition (reportedly Germany is a different story, but in US there is no doubt), Lexus makes better overall quality, Infiniti makes them faster and (now also) sharper cornering (at least G), Acura has superior value in terms of the content.

BMW does not excell or corner anything in particular as they used to. Yeah, gas mileage... Really, Pay up 5-10 grand more to get extra 3 mpg - that's a great calculus.

They can cash out their old chips for a while, as they probably have a lot of them. But watch out. There used to be a reason to pony up the money for this expensive piece of metal, because one could argue that nobody else has quite done it they way they do. This claim may not be valid in five or ten years. When chips are spent there is nothing left. Those things don't come quickly and immediately, but when the tides turn, it takes long time to turn them back. Just ask Mazda and Nissan how (NOT) well they did when they try to outcamry the Camry.

Thanks guys I like being told I'm right it feels great and appreshiated. Wish my wife would go along with that- or even flight for that matter.

On the Camry comment - I'm sure Nissan is fine with what they did with the Altima as its past and current sales dictate. Not a great example - maybe use a fusion and a Mazda 6- or something different in that argument- Nissan bad example as the Altima prob saved the brand during the mid late 2000s.

I'm referring to Nissan from 90s, not 2000s. Altima was a pittiful car then, Maxima was not much better. Whole line was gutted of any sportyness. 2000 (or so) Altima was indeed the car that saved Nissan, along with that 3.5l V6 engine.

From the 90s ... (For model Code guys, the w5245) Really ? never mentioned in the long post above might of misses it thou. I think Nissan has done ok with the Altima. And the comment about the 3.5 is funny- most of the cars they sell in bulk are 4 cyl under the Nissan name and have done so for 10 years plus years. Sure the engine has had many awards and pulls like a mofo . But look at sales (10 years) of maximas, pathfinders , and to a lesser extent large rogue (name excapes me) and tell me it saved the brand? Maybe you mean saved Infiniti ?

I think what saved Nissan was a quality 4 door sedan with a 4cyl - that undercut the Camry a bit on pricing- might have been a little edgier looking and performed a touch better in base form and had more standard stuff.

The 3.5 was put in Altima, Maxima, Murano, Pathfinder, Xterra, Frontier, Quest, Z350, all Infinities but top of the line (G, I, FX, EX, M). It was highly acclaimed at the time, universally acknowledged as one of best. Yes, Altimas were selling mostly 2.5, but all cars above Altima had that engine and it was responsible for their success. Especially Z350, Murano, G35, FX.

I agree styling of that new (then) Altima combined with aggressive pricing was the main contributor in turnaround in Nissans largest volume car sales. But the engine (and more generically platform) was another major contributor. It created a real buzz of Nissans being fast, even if people actually were buying smaller engine.

At that time Nissan was also beating the rest with best time of assembly. The early cars had some quality issues, but they mostly worked it out - except for Titan and Quest, I think, which still don't have best reputation.

While I kind of get what you are saying, customers looked at the up crust of Nissan and said wow let's go fast but they bot the 4. No one is saying the engine isn't a good one but I can't quantify with hard numbers the 6 had anything to do with saving the brand, sorry. If its a feeling it saved the brand again it's a feeling, not fact.

Facts- Look at the April sales numbers for the Nissan division - top 3 cars sold- Altima, roque, sentra- infact they made up 50% all sales. Number four was the versa.Btw they sold more jukes then they sold xteras, Maronos, titans and quests- and the maxima outsold the juke by 200 cars for the month. (Juke is real ugly btw) All facts found on nissan corporate website and are US only sales.

"Even so, Nissan predicts that only 10 percent of Altima buyers will choose the car with two extra pots. But they&#146;d be well advised to do so, because the V-6 Altima offers big power in a very complete package." C and driver

So, where are the f30 and d45 and other obscure numbers to be found on BMW cars? Tiny chrome strips on fenders, or trunks, or embedded somewhere in the grilles or maybe in the car instruction manual? Thought that BMWs were identified by numbers posted on car such as 325 or similar. f30 sounds goofy for cars. This numbering scheme of f--- is supposed to be reserved for U.S. fighter jets.

These are mfr codes for two and three generations back of 3-series model. Easier than saying 198x to 9x, especially that coupes or convertibles are introduced two or even three years after sedan versions of same platform. With the code, it is more precise.

to me it's douchie talk. Year and model number please like every other car on the planet.">

If you say so but my car is a 2000 528i/E39 but it's quite a bit different from the current 528i/F10 which has a 3 liter engine compared to the 2.8L in my car.

All those E/F designations help to emphasize platform mates that have much in common with the primary distinctions having to to with motors. Mercedes guys do it too using W### designators.

BMW model nomenclature hasn't been very consistent so the platform letter-number system helps because it's been more consistent. I think the same applies to M-Benz.

This topic is Entry-level Performance Sedans, a category pretty much invented by the cars from Munich. A little homework about BMWs might help you in this discussion. If you find this too confusing perhaps your time would be better spent on other boards

Please tell me the last mb post was - or even a reference to wx code you speak of on this chat board. Again I get the reason behind such codes, but I don't think I and other non-bmw owners (lovers) NEED to do such homework you speak of- we are not naive infact many of us actually are just as much of enthusiasts even without owning a propeller badge. Sure the Germans as you say invented the category - but as you can see from the right hand column they make up less then half the field.

FN....I really love the sound of the motor in the S4. That said, I also know it has what Audi calls a "soundaktor". In short, it supplements the sound of the engine which allegedly makes it more pleasing. However, I've test driven the A6 3.0 S/C (a detuned version of the S4's engine). It sounds about the same, just quieter.

dino...I'm in total agreement. As BMW moves further away from their sporting roots, the likes of Audi is filling that void. Someone in the halls of BMW's HQ presented a PPT complete with spreadsheets showing how BMW could sell more cars if they moved away from their sporting intent. BMW's exec staff agreed, apparently.

Not so sure they know how to play in the "lux" end of the luxury-sports arena. Benz and Cadillac play better there. But, they're going to give it a shot, so it seems.

BMW did indeed spend a few decades building their rep and their cachet. That being firmly entrenched, looks like they want to fire a volley at Mercedes and maybe even Cadillac. Maybe this is the first time they've felt both are a threat.

It looks like Lexus is also going to try to fill part of the market that BMW has vacated. Gotta believe Acura and Infiniti aren't far behind, although both of them have had their toes in those waters for awhile.

Gotta remember, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti cut their teeth taking aim at German lux, attempting to do it better (and less expensive) than Mercedes, Audi, BMW.

My issue is BMW is not nearly as luxurious inside, especially in their base trims, as say Audi or MB. Wood inlays really improve the look, also some of those touches you get with those Lux, Sport or M-line packages. The base aluminum trim is quite dull, if you ask me. Their dashboard consoles always look like a 1980s recycle, the competition is light years ahead in styling of the dials and gauges, or center area. It was allright when BMW was the true athlete of the bunch, one took it because the looks didn't count, it was the driving. However, when the steering disaster of those F-coded models took hold, suddenly I ask myself, why would I pay 5 extra grand for this (of course once it is time for my current car to go). So far the only way I see BMW winning me over is by those "peripheral" models like GT, wagon, or perhaps X1, or X3. I find it easy to imagine that those are still sportiest of their peers. Nobody else makes proper wagons anymo, i.e. sedan from hood to center pillar, extended back, no stupid raised suspensions, body claddings or other crossover crap. I believe TSX will be gone soon, so the new 328 wagon may be still in the mix just because there is nothing else left, unless new CTS will still feature wagon. 335 GT could have been a good alternative - killer engine, great space arrangement, but from early reports the steering and suspension are even more vague and soft than sedan/wagon. But is there anything like that around? The rest is the crossover stuff. If I did cross over, indeed, perhaps Audi Allroad - never tried that one. Honda Crosstour or Subaru Outback, if I wanted to save some money. But it's not the same thing than proper sporty wagon. Those are practically dead.

For now I'm committed to hold onto my 328 wagon. Just love that thing, 18 months after delivery it's near perfect, not to jinx it. Only some major failures could make me unlove it. I'm not scared of normal maintenance or even occasional repairs. Even couple of grand a year after warranty is not a big deal to me - at all. We shall see in three years how it holds.

BTW, many BMW enthusiast believe your E39 was the last of the great 5 series.

Yup, my bad on the F10/528i, even I get confused by the messed up current nomenclature. If there was any sense to it the 528i would be called the 520T(T for turbo). It's time to drop the dopey "i"-for (fuel) injection which made sense back in the 70s when most cars were still carbuerated.

As for the E39 being the last great 5er, Jeremy Clarkson calls it the last "mechanical" Five Series and I tend to agree. I'd rather have a great driver with hydraulic steering, a full sized spare, a temp gauge and an oil dipstick than all that i-drive crap and run-flat tires.

It's not just reserved for BMW Enthusiast, my buddies in the Alfa club understand the different between a E39 and a E30. Most auto (not all) enthusiast know the difference between 964,996 and a 997 in Porsche speak.

I don't think BMW or any car company at this point cares about the enthusiasts owner at all.

I think it might more accurate to say that BMW doesn't care about selling to enthusiasts who are not wealthy. By all accounts the M- badged cars are very enthusiast-oriented and deliver terrific performance but they're also very expensive and it's true that they no longer make an entry-level luxury car that is very performance oriented, I guess they figure us poor people can buy Minis.

This is why if I was looking for a M5, the E39 would be the one I'd be looking at. Not too heavy, built proof engine, excellent handling.

In regards the new alphabet games, marketing won out, people would assume that a 520iT wouldn't hold the same level of class then saying 528i. It works in the 3 series with no problem, since the 320i is really a way to get people in to the showroom. The 1 series isn't significant yet for BMW, this of course well changed when the 2014 1 series arrives.

Wagons have been on death watch for quite a few years. For all intents and purposes, the TLX and BMW wagons are indeed going away, unfortunately. IMHO, they were the best of the breed.

Not true at all, BMW currently imports a 3 series wagon, and will offer it in a diesel form for 2014. The 5 series wagon sells very well for them. The biggest issue with wagons are simple, people who buy them hold on to them, they are a small niche car for BMW, MB and Audi. The 3 series GT will be interesting, since it's suppose to have more rear passenger room.

I'm very interested in a 2014 3 series diesel wagon, well wait to see the pricing on it.