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Yeah I wrote that I'm still very busy and at least half of what I will add will just be reiterating what Helixhorned has already said in his guide. In addition to that I'll add a bit of info on TROR scissoring and floating TROR platforms. But it looks like I might have to do that in the mid-semester break in a few weeks.

I haven't even finished the episode yet (due to the aforementioned busyness), but I figured given the number of people who were involved in the creation of the episode, and the number of high profile people who have played the episode, one of them might be able to write a paragraph or two about it for the front page of Duke4.net.

Edit: I just remembered a while ago I submitted a news item for the 1.5 hour CBP map pack, but no one bothered to put it up

about the news article, how does one go about submitting one ? i have some spare time today so i might get to wrap one up real quick. i don't use this site too much though, so i am not sure how to do it.

Go to the front page: http://www.duke4.net/news.php and in the column on the left there's a button that says "Submit news" (you have to be logged in to submit news, and you might need to make an account since the forum accounts are separate).

You'll then need to select a category (Duke 3D), write a title, and of course the article itself. They usually like it when you include pictures, and links to the review, download, and forum thread.

Good luck, I hope the news article will draw in some extra attention from those who don't check the forum or sites like MSDN very often.

I have a few qualms about the execution of some of the maps. A couple were more CK3D styled rather than classic. They're not bad maps, but it's obvious that they were made over a longer period of time rather than the allotted 24 hours just by looking at the size and amount of CK3D flavored detailing that went into them. The train map to me was more Blood in design, but the atmosphere was classic Duke3D. It's linear play, basically walking down a hallway full of doors, was a bit of a let down after all those nice urban maps. Putting this map in the middle of the pack would have suited the episode better.
Only two boss maps stayed true to the urban theme: high altitude and stadium despair. One boss map was of an alien hive type theme and the other was some ugly mish-mash of tron meets alien meets haunted house. Stadium despair was urban, but all the "openness" took away from it. The wide open area outside was rather unnecessary, and due to the large expanse from one side of the arena to the other on the inside, it failed to provide the proper sense of urgency when all the spawns are virtually dots in the distance. High altitude was definitely the best one in my opinion. It was the funnest and stayed closer to the theme of the package.

Other than those style breakers it is a pretty solid release and quite a bit of fun to play. I liked the style and it was reminisce of playing one of the original episodes.

I have a few qualms about the execution of some of the maps. A couple were more CK3D styled rather than classic. They're not bad maps, but it's obvious that they were made over a longer period of time rather than the allotted 24 hours just by looking at the size and amount of CK3D flavored detailing that went into them.

I was annoyed at the inclusion of Meatball Sub Makin' in the collection for exactly this reason. MSM was meticulously and painstakingly created; it couldn't possibly have been intended for being placed in a classics collection. Suffice it to say, some of the wild variety in this collection (Yelldown Hellride especially) made this seem more like an urban CBP/CMP. As you said, however, it's still a fun playthrough.

To me there are two "real" endings for the episode: the two first boss maps, High Altitude face off and Stadium despair.

I understand the complains about the other ones, but to me they are like a bonus.

Sure, The Bitch would fit more if we had made an episode in the style of Lunar Apocalyspe, but there was no point in doing that in the first place since Fernando already did . Would it have been better off released as a standalone map? Maybe... but it still fits for being 3DR style and being made in one day.

Thanks for the reviews.

Edit :
for those who care, I was supposed to make a boss map as well, but since I never finished it, MRCK made Yellow Hellride.

I had all the dieas, but as far as mapping went, that's how far I got

You can see the railtrack at the back. The player would have started there.

On the railtrack there would have been a train wagon container full of women sprites from E1L2.

The fences would have gone all around that parking area and that hole with alien textures.

There would be a couple of minarets, and the player would have had to go through a "security room" building before being able to jump down that hole.

He would arrive on a convoyer belt in an alien cave. The convoyer belt would have women on them (the women sprite you see in E1L2 again), reach a kind of alienish machine, and at the other end of it there would still be women going on the convoyer belt but this time those sprites of women trapped in facehuggers cocoons you see in Lunar Apocalypse.

In the same room you'd unlock a big door leading to a boss fight room similar to the one of episode 2 (with the same boss), except that there would be cocoon'ed women all along the walls.

I was annoyed at the inclusion of Meatball Sub Makin' in the collection for exactly this reason. MSM was meticulously and painstakingly created; it couldn't possibly have been intended for being placed in a classics collection. Suffice it to say, some of the wild variety in this collection (Yelldown Hellride especially) made this seem more like an urban CBP/CMP. As you said, however, it's still a fun playthrough.

Meatball Sub was definitely not 'meticulously and painstakingly created', even though I guess it could be taken as a compliment if you think it was (I can just improvise and map really fast). It was built in three days instead of the 'mandatory' one-day limit (that only a handful of maps ended up fully respecting, making the difference even less significant), and I was working on it on and off. It was also meant to be part of the episode from the start, I designed the map solely for it and only released it beforehand as a teaser, it is fully connected to the episode to begin with so I fail to get why it shouldn't have been included. The following map, Derailing, was made in two days, in my opinion it is just as ambitious, which isn't even much, compared to other maps I built in just one afternoon (ie. Croque Monsieur and Dukenpark for good comparison) it is not even much of a stretch. Were we talking about a map in the vein of Anorak City, Bottles to the Ground or Happy Hangover (maps of mine that have actually gone through a meticulous and painstaking building process) I would have understood your point and agreed with it, but come on, saying the map should have been disqualified from the pack for being ambitious only because it took as long as three days to make is pushing it.

Maybe people donīt know how much time you needed to make it. Yet, the map feels halfway between the other maps of this project and your more ambitious maps. It surely talks gold about your skills but at the same time itīs like a foreigner map. Just compare difficulty, layout, visual design and lenght; thereīs no other map in the pack vaguely alike Meatbal.

I like all of the maps, but if we are going to talk about quality, I would rather see the other maps increase in quality than have Meatball Sub go down in quality to meet them. But the variations in style are not worth objecting to; I care much more about gameplay than about having perfect visual consistency. I do have one small criticism in the gameplay department, though. As I said before, I think that Meatball Sub has too much equipment compared with the other maps, and Derailing seems much more difficult than every other non-boss map. When you find a secret or a non-secret item cache in Meatball it is usually multiple items where one would do in most cases. In Derailing, there are too many battelords imo. If you agree those are things that could be fixed in just a few minutes.

I have a few qualms about the execution of some of the maps. A couple were more CK3D styled rather than classic. They're not bad maps, but it's obvious that they were made over a longer period of time rather than the allotted 24 hours just by looking at the size and amount of CK3D flavored detailing that went into them. The train map to me was more Blood in design, but the atmosphere was classic Duke3D. It's linear play, basically walking down a hallway full of doors, was a bit of a let down after all those nice urban maps. Putting this map in the middle of the pack would have suited the episode better.
Only two boss maps stayed true to the urban theme: high altitude and stadium despair. One boss map was of an alien hive type theme and the other was some ugly mish-mash of tron meets alien meets haunted house. Stadium despair was urban, but all the "openness" took away from it. The wide open area outside was rather unnecessary, and due to the large expanse from one side of the arena to the other on the inside, it failed to provide the proper sense of urgency when all the spawns are virtually dots in the distance. High altitude was definitely the best one in my opinion. It was the funnest and stayed closer to the theme of the package.

Other than those style breakers it is a pretty solid release and quite a bit of fun to play. I liked the style and it was reminisce of playing one of the original episodes.

again I can easily agree that some of my maps are slightly bigger than most of the others. However I really think that saying that the amount of time spent on them is significantly bigger is a mistake - it's really just a matter of a couple of extra hours. I sort of wanted Meatball and Derailing to be a turning point in the episode, kind of like a core transition to the boss maps, so I deliberately took them more seriously than, say, Croque Monsieur or the train map. I kind of wanted them to feel like maps such as Smithsonian Terror (or whatever it is called again) feel in comparison to the first maps of Duke It Out In DC, for instance. I focused on them which caused me to take the time to polish them a bit more, but it was still built on the go, with improvised layout and designing, which is easy to pull off if you are going to map '3DR style' as long as you've got some experience with Duke mapping. I agree that I don't seem to be able to fully depart from my natural style, though, even on the occasions I try to. It is funny that you mention Blood while referring to the train map, too - I don't think I have even played that game in my life (I don't play video games besides Duke, and I don't even play Duke anymore)

Maybe people don´t know how much time you needed to make it. Yet, the map feels halfway between the other maps of this project and your more ambitious maps. It surely talks gold about your skills but at the same time it´s like a foreigner map. Just compare difficulty, layout, visual design and lenght; there´s no other map in the pack vaguely alike Meatbal.

I don't know, I think Derailing comes really close on all points. About difficulty : I just like to make hard maps (or at least, maps with good, rich firefights). I allowed myself to go loose on Meatball and Derailing, but I don't find them too difficult, they are what a map with enjoyable, tough fights is to my standards (I am not saying I don't have tweaked standards). In terms of difficulty and monster / ammo / health ratio, my other maps in the pack are similar, except Croque Monsieur because it is only the second map of the episode so I had to restrict myself. Stadium Despair has loads going on, and Dukenpark is pretty action-packed for a map that takes place mostly indoors. Maybe I do not have the same experience with the maps as most people since I have rather specific tastes as far as action in Duke goes. The map I am the most proud of in this pack is probably Derailing, because of the layout and the non-stop action. I am not a big fan of how I designed the inside of the train station but that's about it. About my personal impressions on the other maps I contributed : Meatball is also cool but I've played it too much while betatesting it before its separate release and I don't really enjoy it anymore ; I still really like Croque Monsieur although the mood is a bit down, Dukenpark looks a bit sketchy and is cramped in some places but I like the layout. I find Stadium Despair very fun to play (which isn't surprising because of the bloodbath on the playing field), and Yelldown Hellride kind of sucks besides the idea behind the first room (in terms of design - I would love to see a conceptual map like that, or even more conceptual maps in general). I only built it because I needed a boss map real quick, and I kind of wanted to showcase sections of my old lesser-known levels since I am not going to be able to map in a long time and not many players care about these levels these days. The train map I am not a huge fan of, and I am actually surprised that some people seem to like it a lot, I guess the design is decent but that's about it.

Firstly, I appreciate these maps and ANY maps made for the community. Takes time and effort for a modder to make SP maps, and it is always fun to try 'em.

Ok, the train map not my thing. Too linear for me.

Other maps...well mostley poor weapon placment or lack of super weapons such as shrinker or freezethrower (at least until later in the game). This leaves the player facing 100 pig cops with just a shotgun, which is never any fun.

Some maps way too hard on "damn Im good", espicially map 9. On map 9 the player going to a certain areas causes the spawning of a ridiculous amount of monsters, and hard ones like a bunch of fat commanders all at once, and at the same time tanks, and at the same time rippers, pigcops, more pig cops, and some big monsters. All the while you have near zero ammo. Yes, I like a challenge, but fighting tanks and fat commanders at the same time with a pistol and an empty shrinker doesnt inspire me to keep playing that map. It just makes me leave the map in frustration.

Level layouts are pretty good. Cityscapes look nice and are construced well. Ambience is plentiful plus the city streets have wind noise, which is something nearly every mapper misses. Adds a ton to atmosphere.

I do love to see areas that take advantage of the enviroment. There are fire hydrants you can break to get emergency health, and there are some ledges you can shortcut too by jumping on monsters. There are eggs and trashcans that contain freindly slimers, that can really help you clean up bodies when in "damn Im good" mode. There are long jumps that can be made with a bit of roid action. BUT...there are jumps that cannot be made due to the dreaded "invisible wall syndrome" which exists on the flood zone map, and many other maps of this map-pack.

Is it map 5 where there is a firetruck, and the next map that your on the roof XXX stacy? Anyway, those maps = invisible walls. I really hate see-through-walls like nobodys buisness.

I think that might be the first time an episode has been criticized for not being playable on DIG.

DIG is a joke. It essentially turns all the hitscan weapons into stun guns and forces the player to blow up all the bodies. It's not playable unless there happen to be a lot of weapons 5-10 in the map. It's one of those cases where the developers just got it wrong. There are lots of better ways to increase difficulty.

I think that might be the first time an episode has been criticized for not being playable on DIG.

DIG is a joke. It essentially turns all the hitscan weapons into stun guns and forces the player to blow up all the bodies. It's not playable unless there happen to be a lot of weapons 5-10 in the map. It's one of those cases where the developers just got it wrong. There are lots of better ways to increase difficulty.

It was the style at the time though! I'm 99% certain that monsters revive in Doom's nightmare mode - DIG is actually really easy compared to Nightmare mode.

Firstly, I appreciate these maps and ANY maps made for the community. Takes time and effort for a modder to make SP maps, and it is always fun to try 'em.

Ok, the train map not my thing. Too linear for me.

Other maps...well mostley poor weapon placment or lack of super weapons such as shrinker or freezethrower (at least until later in the game). This leaves the player facing 100 pig cops with just a shotgun, which is never any fun.

Some maps way too hard on "damn Im good", espicially map 9. On map 9 the player going to a certain areas causes the spawning of a ridiculous amount of monsters, and hard ones like a bunch of fat commanders all at once, and at the same time tanks, and at the same time rippers, pigcops, more pig cops, and some big monsters. All the while you have near zero ammo. Yes, I like a challenge, but fighting tanks and fat commanders at the same time with a pistol and an empty shrinker doesnt inspire me to keep playing that map. It just makes me leave the map in frustration.

Level layouts are pretty good. Cityscapes look nice and are construced well. Ambience is plentiful plus the city streets have wind noise, which is something nearly every mapper misses. Adds a ton to atmosphere.

I do love to see areas that take advantage of the enviroment. There are fire hydrants you can break to get emergency health, and there are some ledges you can shortcut too by jumping on monsters. There are eggs and trashcans that contain freindly slimers, that can really help you clean up bodies when in "damn Im good" mode. There are long jumps that can be made with a bit of roid action. BUT...there are jumps that cannot be made due to the dreaded "invisible wall syndrome" which exists on the flood zone map, and many other maps of this map-pack.

Is it map 5 where there is a firetruck, and the next map that your on the roof XXX stacy? Anyway, those maps = invisible walls. I really hate see-through-walls like nobodys buisness.

i am not trying to be condescending or anything, i fully respect your opinion and i find the feedback of all players interesting (especially those who had nothing to do with the conception of the episode to begin with, because they are like foreigners to it and therefore usually deliver considerable input), i just thought i would point out how funny i thought it was (again, taken out of personal context) to see someone mention how hard the maps are in damn i'm good (implying that they would have to be a fairly experienced player to even try) yet praise cheap, beginnerish techniques such as drinking from fire hydrants at the same time. I don't think I've ever drank from fountains in duke once since 1998 or so.

I usually find invisible walls annoying too (who doesn't ?) but can not remember encountering any in this episode, at least not in the maps I've played the most (maybe Merlijn's map has some ?). I would like to know how exactly you found the ammo / monster / health placement wrong, though. I think it's pretty much on point in all the maps, then again, I guess mappers sometimes forget that they are (usually) experienced players, therefore they make maps that are on par with their own standards of difficulty and forget about the younger players. Map 9 was Derailing right, the one with the train station ? I find it entirely passable even when played out of the context of the episode with just the stock weapons (when you start with just a pistol). But then again, I love huge fights (again) and I have a style of play that is not unnecessarily trigger-happy

I believe it is map 9 that you have the huge area at the beggining, one side has a building with a Battlelord on the roof and the other end has a car on fire with atomic health behind it? That's the level I'm talking about. I would like someone to play that on DIG, and come back here and tell us you beat it. I would be very curious if it can even be done.

Fire hydrants are not "cheap, beginnerish techniques", they are included in the game so a player may take advantage of his enviroment. DNKROZ is cheap, not using the bathroom for 10 health points when your in trouble.

And this is espicially true when playing a map on DIG. At least to me. Hell on the hardest setting your in survival mode...you die and you have to start over again, period. There is no DNKROZ. And the monsters respawn unless you destroy their bodies. So on that mode anything that can keep you alive is fair game.

I find weapon placement wrong because of a lack of super weapon placement. Bombs, shrinkers, RPG's, that kind of stuff is usually not found until much much later in the level. In the mean time your facing 50 troopers, 50 pig cops and 3 fat commanders with a shotgun. Note I always start with just a pistol when playing a level...I dont carry weapons left over from the last level. And also for the record I certainly consider myself an "expierienced player". I usually play a map on Come Get Some the first time, and then DIG the second time.

I believe it is map 9 that you have the huge area at the beggining, one side has a building with a Battlelord on the roof and the other end has a car on fire with atomic health behind it? That's the level I'm talking about. I would like someone to play that on DIG, and come back here and tell us you beat it. I would be very curious if it can even be done.

Lol, just beat it in 3 minutes, 45 seconds, killing most enemies I encountered. Didn't die at all.

Since invisible walls were mentioned, it reminded me of one that is annoying. In Submerged Zone, after some climbing you reach an area where it looks like you can jump to the yellow keycard on a nearby roof. It's an easy jump, in fact, but you can't do it because of an invisible wall.

The episode was designed for Let's Rock and Come Get Some. Just like every user map ever made for Duke. Damn I'm Good is like a bonus if you care about it.

Just like some maps in the original game, if you're starting with a pistol, it's pretty clear that a lot of the maps were not designed with Damn I'm Good taken into consideration, and I think that's how it should be done. You're probably the only 1% who's going to play this in Damn I'm Good.

There is no invisible wall in the "XXX Stacy map", but there is a transparent curtain you can't get through.
The only invisible wall in the previous map is the firetruck blocking the path.

I admit that the invisible walls in Submerged Zone (it's the "Flood style map" if that helps anybody to remember) around the building of the middle of the map could seem annoying. As an afterthought, maybe I should have made it so that you get into that building the second and not the last, it would have allowed us to get rid of those invisible walls. Plus, it would have made for a classic style "choose the way you want to enter the next building" since you could have either used the card to enter it from underwater or simply jump on the roof from the destroyed building.
I never even considered it before you pointed that out though.... It could have improved the map a little.
Edit : if we ever have enough reasons to release another version (that is to say : a lot of bug reports, misaligned textures, gameplay not being right, etc) then we should do that. However so far it seems that we have not many reasons to "fix" the episode.

I too think Yellow Hellride "kinda sucks" like you said MRCK but I didn't dare to say it before you did. I'm the one to blame for not finishing my boss map anyway.

Since invisible walls were mentioned, it reminded me of one that is annoying. In Submerged Zone, after some climbing you reach an area where it looks like you can jump to the yellow keycard on a nearby roof. It's an easy jump, in fact, but you can't do it because of an invisible wall.

I guess they did that to prevent the player from using a shortcut, it didn't bother me since it's a good reason.
As for the invisible walls in my map: on one side of the road there's a big fire truck blocking the road, on the other side there's a huge fence.. How can I indicate an invisible barrier more clearly then that lol.

BTW nice review Gambini! Although you also misspelled my name.. twice in a row (are you guys doing this on purpose? ) Also, I'm curious which part of my map reminded you of OGBB/Roch Island.

I guess they did that to prevent the player from using a shortcut, it didn't bother me since it's a good reason.
As for the invisible walls in my map: on one side of the road there's a big fire truck blocking the road, on the other side there's a huge fence.. How can I indicate an invisible barrier more clearly then that lol.

BTW nice review Gambini! Although you also misspelled my name.. twice in a row (are you guys doing this on purpose? ) Also, I'm curious which part of my map reminded you of OGBB/Roch Island.

The next map, the XXX stacy one, you begin on a rooftop that you cannot jump off of because of a invisible wall. A fence around that rooftop already exists. Extending it to the front part would of solved it.

As for the firetruck part there is a large gap that one cannot pass through, and I think even a ledge that disallows the player to jump on top of the truck.

In fact the beggining of map 7 there is an invisible wall, forcing the player to go back through a vent instead of forward, into a room. There are other examples. And yeah, the part where you cant jump onto the roof at flood zone, that one bummed me out.

And if Mikko and I are talking about the same map, the one where there is a blue keycard on a roof with a Battlelord gaurding it...if he beat THAT MAP on DIG in 3 minutes....well, he is a better man than I.

DeeperThought, on 05 March 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

I think that might be the first time an episode has been criticized for not being playable on DIG.

DIG is a joke. It essentially turns all the hitscan weapons into stun guns and forces the player to blow up all the bodies. It's not playable unless there happen to be a lot of weapons 5-10 in the map. It's one of those cases where the developers just got it wrong. There are lots of better ways to increase difficulty.

Oh man, I got to disagree with that sentiment. To me, DIG is fantastic! That setting is what truley makes the game fun in my opinion. A player is faced with all kind of dilimma's while playing in DIG:

"should I use my shotgun and temporary kill the pigcop hoping that I can find a bomb or freezer within a minute, but use up my shotty ammo? Or, should I run past and take damage?

Should I try to lure 10 troopers to the same area so I can kill them all in the same spot, then quickly lure a slimer to the pile to dispose of the bodies? Or, should I use my devestator ammo and just make em dissapear right now"?

And so on.

Huge stratagy is need to play on DIG, which to me tests a map to it's limits...and makes the game a pile of fun to play

The next map, the XXX stacy one, you begin on a rooftop that you cannot jump off of because of a invisible wall. A fence around that rooftop already exists. Extending it to the front part would of solved it.

Okay I COMPLETELY disagree with this. Maybe you're suicidal enough to jump down that rooftop, but Duke isn't.
Not to mention that why would anybody (either Duke or you) went to jump down the previous map of the game!

Adding fences would not solve the problem. If you extrapolate a little, why couldn't Duke climb the fences and jump down?

In the end it's a matter of a simple choice : either you put a huge horrible looking grey wall or you put a firetruck. Either you put big fences that actually don't even add anything to realism and which would ruin the visual, or either you put an invisible wall. In both cases I think the latter solution is the best : it doesn't change anything to the gameplay but at least you can have good looking unreachable places.

It's either solution 1 :

or solution 2 :

In my opinion the invisible walls in the middle of Submerged Zone are definitely arguable and should be removed if we make an updated version of the episode. But these other invisible walls are not arguable.

Edit :

Blue Lightning, on 06 March 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

In fact the beggining of map 7 there is an invisible wall, forcing the player to go back through a vent instead of forward, into a room. There are other examples. And yeah, the part where you cant jump onto the roof at flood zone, that one bummed me out.

Again, why would you want to backtrack into the previous map. You've been there already.

In an ideal world you'd be able to go anywhere you want. In a video game you gotta limit yourself because otherwise the map would take your lifetime to build and even then it wouldn't get finished.

yeah I agree, it's pretty much like complaining that you can't directly access bank roll from that room raw meat in episode 3 even though you can distinctly see it because of an invisible wall... complaining about invisible walls when they are annoying is fine, but doing it for the sake of it because it is the thing to do when a new map comes out and happens to have some... nuh-uh

I agree with CK3D.. when they're overused or not well indicated, invisible barriers can be annoying (the first beach area in roch island is a good example... sorry ck3d ).. But in this case it just feels like nitpicking for the sake of it. It's pretty obvious that the areas beyond the mentioned barriers don't belong to the gameplay area and I don't know why anyone would expect to be able to pass them.

My opinion is that the invisible wall is a copout, but I feel that way about invisible walls in ANY game in ANY setting. If you don't want the player to enter a certain area, restrict it by putting up visible physical barriers. That's just me, though.

In my opinion the invisible walls in the middle of Submerged Zone are definitely arguable and should be removed if we make an updated version of the episode. But these other invisible walls are not arguable.

Yes, if you can move the ledge far enough away from the roof with the keycard so that the player can't reach it by jumping. Although the player might have steroids and be able to do a huge strafe jump, so I don't know how good that solution is.