miscreant:If the cheerleaders were fans sitting in the stands who brought their own home written signs to the game, there would be no problem. The problem is that as cheerleaders for the team, their actions can be viewed as endorsed by the school, and thus the government.

I don't see it as any different from a graduation speech where the student making the speech references their religion.

stoli n coke:retarded: I'm assuming if one of the cheerleaders was a Muslim, then no one would have a problem with her waving a large banner with passages from the Koran on it, right?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Friday is the sabbath for many muslims. They'd probably have a bigger problem with people going to a football game instead of worship.

In the west they pretty much move it to Sat. About a third of my high school was Islamic, they all turned up for class on Friday. Also, like Christianity, a lot of them aren't extremists - it's just that the assholes tend to be louder.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Joe Blowme:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So where is the violation?

Wow you come to a religion thread try twice and fail to troll. Not even a 0/10

Joe Blowme:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Cheron:Joe Blowme: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So where is the violation?

Wow you come to a religion thread try twice and fail to troll. Not even a 0/10

Actually, you have a point. The first two clauses, the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause, enjoin only Congress:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

It does not directly prohibit state and local governments. But the courts have consistently ruled that state and local governments cannot have laws that are in direct opposition to those of the federal government (the old federalist vs confederation debate). The point of the first amendment isn't just to ensure freedom of religion but to insure the governments remain completely secular.

Personally, I have no problem with silent prayers in public schools. But this isn't enough for most fundamentalist Christians and they are intolerant of other faiths, which are almost universally excluded from public practice. Hence, no religion in schools.

Here's what I want to know: if they used Koran quotes, translating "Allah" to "God," how many people would notice?

I bet you'll never guess what Arabic speaking Christans call god...

"Susan"?

Only reason I stipulated the Allah->God thing is because some translated works leave certain words untouched for... whatever reason. And if the Bible thumpers saw "herp derp Allah herp derp," they'd be tipped off that it wasn't from their Good Book. But if all they saw was "herp derp God herp derp," I wonder if they'd catch the deception. Hell, most people think "God helps those who help themselves" is in there, so it's at least worth a try.

PallMall:Joe Blowme: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So where is the violation?

You passed right over it.

I am unfamilar with this new law congress passed? Can you give a link? I'd like to see how it was voted on and why Obama signed it.

Joe Blowme:PallMall: Joe Blowme: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So where is the violation?

You passed right over it.

I am unfamilar with this new law congress passed? Can you give a link? I'd like to see how it was voted on and why Obama signed it.

Happy Hours:I don't see it as any different from a graduation speech where the student making the speech references their religion.

Of course, you probably object to that too.

It's really less about what I'd object to, especially since I'm Canadian and we don't have the establishment clause, than what your courts would object to.

Schools tend to be in a tricky place down there. They don't want to be seen as endorsing religion, because that will get them sued, but they don't want to stifle free speech either.

The question would be, what if there is a cheerleader in there who is not Christian, or who doesn't feel comfortable making these kind of religious expressions in public. Is she then being pressured into religious activity she doesn't agree with to remain on the team? Will new recruits have to be willing to hold up religious signs to make the team? I suspect that a group of girls religious enough to go to court over this is unlikely to take too kindly to a teammate who didn't want to go along with it, and if the school allowed it, it's an implicit endorsement.

Happy Hours:miscreant: If the cheerleaders were fans sitting in the stands who brought their own home written signs to the game, there would be no problem. The problem is that as cheerleaders for the team, their actions can be viewed as endorsed by the school, and thus the government.

I don't see it as any different from a graduation speech where the student making the speech references their religion.

Of course, you probably object to that too.

If those cheerleaders want to get together away from the game, and scream GOD HATES TEH GHEY, or whatever else, that's perfectly fine with me. But at a football game, where the school, the football field, the cheerleader uniforms, the game itself is publicly-funded? Paint "Allahu Akhbar" on the goalposts, and then I'll accept your free speech bona fides. Otherwise, I tihnk you're limited in your unlimited support of free speech.

markfara:Pinko_Commie: Excuse my ignorance, but how is a Cheerleading squad at all related to state and local government

Good point. Public schools are, after all, established, run, and maintained by the School Fairies.

Well it's not like people wearing uniforms in school colors, festooned with the school logo and possibly the school's name, who loudly call to a group of people to cheer for the school could in any way, shape or form be construed as representing said school. I mean, it's just ridiculous! Clearly they are simply private people who happened to show up and form human pyramids and shake pom poms. They in no way are funded by the school or have any sort of connection whatsoever.

Dr. Whoof:Joe Blowme: PallMall: Joe Blowme: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So where is the violation?

You passed right over it.

I am unfamilar with this new law congress passed? Can you give a link? I'd like to see how it was voted on and why Obama signed it.

Wow, you're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?

Yes, i can actually read and belive in free speech... but its not stupid to claim congress passed a law about these cheerleaders? Nice

"Coaches preach devotionals before games. We wanted to show our support for our boys," said cheerleader Meagan Tantillo, who started making the religious signs this year, inspired during summer cheer camp.

NO.

Would some Muslims please relocate to Kountze and get on the cheerleading team? Don't mention your religion in advance, because DUH.

I'm curious as to how strongly they would believe in religious expression by the cheerleaders then.

Olympic Trolling Judge:The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: Olympic Trolling Judge: stuhayes2010: I wonder if they'd have the same right to banner Koran quotes?

Here's what I want to know: if they used Koran quotes, translating "Allah" to "God," how many people would notice?

I bet you'll never guess what Arabic speaking Christans call god...

"Susan"?

Only reason I stipulated the Allah->God thing is because some translated works leave certain words untouched for... whatever reason. And if the Bible thumpers saw "herp derp Allah herp derp," they'd be tipped off that it wasn't from their Good Book. But if all they saw was "herp derp God herp derp," I wonder if they'd catch the deception. Hell, most people think "God helps those who help themselves" is in there, so it's at least worth a try.

Another trolling possibility: print New Testament passages in Arabic...

Kountze High School cheerleader Kieara Moffett was the first to testify Thursday, saying Scripture signs were meant to inspire everyone - not just Kountze players. She cried while on the stand, saying she felt her religion wasn't good enough when she was told she couldn't use the signs.

All the inconvenient stuff in the bible about modesty, women as property, genocide and food preparation are just artifacts from a culture living in a very different world thousands of years ago and are not intended to apply today.

The parts that do apply today are all the ones that exactly support exactly how we want to operate in our community.

Those little harlots are putting His holy word on signs for heathens to run through?! As a Real American Christian, I'm offended, and they should all be dealt with...biblically.

/I find it sort of funny that Christians are perfectly okay with something that is in effect a symbolic destruction of scripture//I bet if the cheerleaders were all individually ripping Bible pages up on the field that Kountze would implode.

I think the problem here specifically is that the things that happen on the field have at least an air of school sponsorship if not a presumption of such. School sponsorship of a religious sign in general likely offends First Amendment jurisprudence as it stands. The cheerleaders being clad in uniform probably also contributes here.

It is fairly illustrative that there wouldbe no case against such signs if spectators brought them and held them in the stands.

Public Savant:Jesus Burnt My Hotdog: stoli n coke:Just let them feel like their helping people be more Christian for the 15 months minutes before they get knocked up.

FTFY

Guys, are you forgetting about abstinence?They don't even HAVE sex!

/Immaculate conception - It's how true christians procreate

The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church maintaining that from the moment when she was conceived the Blessed Virgin Mary was kept free of original sin and was filled with the sanctifying grace normally conferred during baptism.[2][3] It is one of the four dogmas in Roman Catholic Mariology. Mary is often called the Immaculata (the Immaculate One), particularly in artistic and cultural contexts.[4]

The Immaculate Conception should not be confused with the perpetual virginity of Mary or the virgin birth of Jesus; it refers to the conception of Mary by her mother, Saint Anne.Immaculate Conception

Repo Man:Public Savant: Jesus Burnt My Hotdog: stoli n coke:Just let them feel like their helping people be more Christian for the 15 months minutes before they get knocked up.

FTFY

Guys, are you forgetting about abstinence?They don't even HAVE sex!

/Immaculate conception - It's how true christians procreate

The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church maintaining that from the moment when she was conceived the Blessed Virgin Mary was kept free of original sin and was filled with the sanctifying grace normally conferred during baptism.[2][3] It is one of the four dogmas in Roman Catholic Mariology. Mary is often called the Immaculata (the Immaculate One), particularly in artistic and cultural contexts.[4]

The Immaculate Conception should not be confused with the perpetual virginity of Mary or the virgin birth of Jesus; it refers to the conception of Mary by her mother, Saint Anne.Immaculate Conception

Perpetual virginity? Jesus had 4 brothers and several sisters, were they all the son of God?

Hey Christians, answer me this cause it has been years since I studied religions...Isn't praying to god for things (money, football wins etc) kinda anti christian?I thought the christian ideal (Jesus) was all about the value of salvation and living a holy life dedicated to god and the 10 commandments and specifically not about the value of things here on earth. AND it seems like glorifying people and their exploits (winning football games) kinda shines the light away from god too. The cheerleaders whole cause seems very unchristian to me.

Kibbler:Happy Hours: miscreant: If the cheerleaders were fans sitting in the stands who brought their own home written signs to the game, there would be no problem. The problem is that as cheerleaders for the team, their actions can be viewed as endorsed by the school, and thus the government.

I don't see it as any different from a graduation speech where the student making the speech references their religion.

Of course, you probably object to that too.

If those cheerleaders want to get together away from the game, and scream GOD HATES TEH GHEY, or whatever else, that's perfectly fine with me. But at a football game, where the school, the football field, the cheerleader uniforms, the game itself is publicly-funded? Paint "Allahu Akhbar" on the goalposts, and then I'll accept your free speech bona fides. Otherwise, I tihnk you're limited in your unlimited support of free speech.

I wouldn't object to any sort of historic or literary works being quoted by cheerleaders - yes, even if it came from the Koran or the Egyptian Book of the Dead or even the Jedi religion.

What if they had a sign that said "May the Force be with our football team"? Haven't some people seriously lobbied to get Jedi recognized as a religion?

I wouldn't even object if they wanted to rename their team mascot "The Flying Spaghetti Monsters".

Rufus Lee King:HeartlineTwist: The cheerleaders being clad in uniform probably also contributes here.

Sounds sexy, but not relevant.

People are entitled to free thought.

Your opinions are only your opinions.

It contributes to the argument that this is school sponsored. If someone dashed onto the field and yelled "Allah be praised," I doubt anyone would consider that to be school-sponsored, and there wouldn't be a good faith argument for doing so given all of the circumstances. The location of the speech in conjunction with the context of the event (football field during a football game) is a more persuasive argument or factor, but the uniforms/who is doing it (cheerleaders) give it more of an appearance of school-sponsored action. At worst, it's a neutral non-issue.

When cheerleaders in uniform are holding these signs as part of the pre-game on the field when uniformed team members run through these signs, the argument for those actions being explicitly or implicitly sponsored and endorsed by the school is far stronger. If the school is sponsoring or endorsing those actions, they likely run into Establishment Clause issues via the 1st and 14th Amendments.

IAMTHEINTARWEBS:Hey Christians, answer me this cause it has been years since I studied religions...Isn't praying to god for things (money, football wins etc) kinda anti christian?I thought the christian ideal (Jesus) was all about the value of salvation and living a holy life dedicated to god and the 10 commandments and specifically not about the value of things here on earth. AND it seems like glorifying people and their exploits (winning football games) kinda shines the light away from god too. The cheerleaders whole cause seems very unchristian to me.

The christian god only accepts/answers prayers from housewives when they are in need of a good parking space.

stoli n coke:Guys, before the religious arguments ensue, who are these cheerleaders harming with this?

Just let them feel like their helping people be more Christian for the 15 months before they get knocked up.

Besides, if a player passes through the Bible quote banner and ends up paralyzed later in the game, he'll learn a valuable lesson about the fairness of life.

I guess it depends if you take stock in all the bible verses you read. For instance, Timothy says "women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety" which goes against what most people would consider typical cheerleader activity.

Then there is the wrongness of asking God to fix a football game. If it illegal for coaches and players, why is it legal to have God cheat?

So basically what you have is trying to be spiritual and ending up mocking Christianity by going against everything it says to be in the bible and making out that if you bribe God with adoration and respect, he will throw a game for you.

Leeds:IAMTHEINTARWEBS: Hey Christians, answer me this cause it has been years since I studied religions...Isn't praying to god for things (money, football wins etc) kinda anti christian?I thought the christian ideal (Jesus) was all about the value of salvation and living a holy life dedicated to god and the 10 commandments and specifically not about the value of things here on earth. AND it seems like glorifying people and their exploits (winning football games) kinda shines the light away from god too. The cheerleaders whole cause seems very unchristian to me.

The christian god only accepts/answers prayers from housewives when they are in need of a good parking space.

CSB time. I used to work for a title company. We had a closing on a house where the contract was cash in hand, meaning the buyer was paying for it directly, no mortgage involved. The sellers showed up, happy that they didn't have all the extra crap that mortgages cost the seller, and eagerly awaited the buyers.

They showed up - a young couple in what was clearly "Sunday best" clothes (this was during the week, we weren't open on weekends). Along with them came a prayer circle of about a dozen people including a pastor in a black suit. That was weird, but strange stuff happens sometimes during closings...we'd seen people have priests bless the closing before...so we didn't think too much of it, just informed the folks they had to wait in the lobby while the couple went in the room for the closing. They promptly formed a circle in the lobby, heads down, and began quietly praying.

Our closer went in and was there for maybe ten minutes. She came out red in the face and came back to the back office where she promptly broke out laughing. The couple, it seemed, had no money at all. They and their prayer circle were literally praying for the money to appear. The sellers were livid, of course. I had to go in and show them to another closing room...one with a phone to call their lawyer. Needless to say, the house was not sold and after about an hour we told the couple and the prayer group to leave or we'd call the cops (our policy was you always waited at least an hour for money to show up for a closing - it was company rules).

Oh, I'm thinking back to the preachers daughters I once knew. So hot, but seriously starfish. It's like they thought "If I'm having sex it must be good." Leads to the point that more average girls are more active in bed, more likely to get into things.