God has the power to do ANYTHING! If someone is being raped or killed or whatever else you want to bring up, God certainly has the authority and power to STOP it, yet he does not. The fact that you say he doesn't ACTUALLY do it, does not change the fact that he does not choose to stop it.

You are making some pretty powerful assumptions here. What are they based on?

They aren't based on anything but what the Scripture says. Concerning salvation, with God all things are possible, as the scripture says. So I can marry such a statement with other scriptures to know that Jesus wasn't actually dependent on man's faith. He was showing how he would use faith to bring the Spirit, which would bring the TRUE healing, not physical but internal, spiritual: conversion.

well, instead of pushing things around, let's just look at the facts.

You are saying Jesus wasn't dependent on man's faith, where do you get that? Was anyone healed without faith? Like Gilbert says, these people knew who he was and knew he could heal them if only they could get close enough to him and get his attention.

Meanwhile, the Pharisees, with their black hearts, are lurking in the background, plotting how to legally kill him, trying to trap him into saying something they can call blasphemy. That's coming from them, not him.

That 2 Thess 2 passage you cited is talking about the mystery of iniquity--musterion anomia. What do you suppose that is?

The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

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Gilbert

Wow!I just noticed that under your name here is the startling statistic: Posts: 4127You should be staring in the sequel to "Sleepless in Seattle"; only this time the movie should be titled, "Sleepless in TentMakers".

You are saying Jesus wasn't dependent on man's faith, where do you get that? Was anyone healed without faith?

I got that from the scripture:

Romans 12:3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Now here is where you have made the assumption: in thinking that their faith wasn't dealt to them by God so that they could be healed. Because as JESUS said himself: with man it is impossible, but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

If all things are possible with God, then it is possible for him to save anyone he wants to save at any time, by dealing the faith they need.

Acts 9:1-15And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: FOR HE IS A CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Doesn't look like a God dependent on Saul's faith, because Saul was breathing threats and murder. Yet God intervened in a way that he does not do for everyone. He appeared in a bright light, knocked Saul over off his horse, spoke in an audible voice even to those around who couldn't see where the voice was coming from so that Saul was astonished! Then God says that Saul was a CHOSEN vessel.

Saul had faith after that alright! It was measured to him by the God that chose him, and intervened in that chosen time so that Saul would be healed of his murderous and sinful ways.

Do you see God doing the same thing with everyone on earth who is about to murder someone else? He could. But you don't see that power done in such a way with everyone. The subject is: Why God allows evil. The simple answer: God allows evil because he CHOOSES to allow it.

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Meanwhile, the Pharisees, with their black hearts, are lurking in the background, plotting how to legally kill him, trying to trap him into saying something they can call blasphemy. That's coming from them, not him.

Acts 4:26-28The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

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That 2 Thess 2 passage you cited is talking about the mystery of iniquity--musterion anomia. What do you suppose that is?

It is that which sits on the throne of God, the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. This man is described in Romans 6 as being put to death by baptism into Christ's death. It is the one described in Romans 7 which puts man in slavery to sin until man is set free from sin by God.

The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

If God causes man to do something, man will do it.

If God causes me to make my bed in the grave, I will make my bed in the grave.

1 Samuel 2:6The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

If I program a computer to make a calculation, the COMPUTER will make that calculation, because I have programmed it so.

The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

If God causes man to do something, man will do it.

If God causes me to make my bed in the grave, I will make my bed in the grave.

1 Samuel 2:6The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

If I program a computer to make a calculation, the COMPUTER will make that calculation, because I have programmed it so.

But you have the "mind of Christ", so now you get to be the co-programmer, and you get to delude people, and you get to speak in parables on purpose to keep them from seeing the "light", and you get to murder, rape, kill, order death upon "groups" of people; afterall; you now have the "mind of christ" which reflects the "father's" purrogative.

But you have the "mind of Christ", so now you get to be the co-programmer, and you get to delude people, and you get to speak in parables on purpose to keep them from seeing the "light", and you get to murder, rape, kill, order death upon "groups" of people; afterall; you now have the "mind of christ" which reflects the "father's" purrogative.

or at least when u are walking "in the spirit anyway"

arrrr

I know you aren't being serious, but, there are people who think this way. They think they are doing God's work by deluding others, keeping them in the dark, killing them, cheating them, etc--just like you said. They think they are justified in doing these things. But, as Jesus put it, they are doing the work of their father, the devil--He was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

I think some of our problem with all this is we tend to think of God as a separate Being from us. Of course He is in a sense but when I can think of God as All in all (not a complete reality to us yet) but when I can think that way then I see us as making decisions on our own AND God being in full control because God permeates us.

God is life. Life moves around us, in us, through us, behind us, in front of us and so forth. We can't say why does God allow this and that and what part do we play. We should have the perspective that says we (God and His creation, us...) are moving.

There is no 'God does this and we do that'. It is 'we (God and all) are doing this and that'. Life is one big whole made up of seemingly limitless particles. We are the particles, God is the whole.

Why does God allow evil, why is there evil at all? Because Life has so ordered it to be so. It is an ingredient in the process of creation, we are the creation. No, not God, us, the particles. God is the whole and God is whole with or without 'us' but in this reality we know now, God and us are one whole unit.

We make decisions and these decisions are based on where we are at in the whole, in Life. In one sense our decisions are independent yet they are also based on input from the whole of which we are part of. So our decisions are 'independent' yet totally guided by the Whole.

Life is like one huge wave. When caught in it you can fight it, turn this way and that, yet you will go with it ultimately.

Just thinking out loud here. I scare myself sometimes. You all make a guy think!!! Thanks!

Matthew 9:28-30 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" "Yes, Lord," they replied. [29] Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you"; [30] and their sight was restored.

Jesus couldn't do any healing in his own home town. Why not? Because they didn't have faith in him.

22 Everyone said good things about him. They were amazed at the gracious words they heard from his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked.

23 Jesus said, "Here is a saying you will certainly apply to me. 'Doctor, heal yourself! Do the things here in your hometown that we heard you did in Capernaum.' "

24 "What I'm about to tell you is true," he continued. "A prophet is not accepted in his hometown. 25 I tell you for sure that there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah. And there had been no rain for three and a half years. There wasn't enough food to eat anywhere in the land. 26 But Elijah was not sent to any of those widows. Instead, he was sent to a widow in Zarephath near Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel who had skin diseases in the days of Elisha the prophet. But not one of them was healed except Naaman the Syrian."

28 All the people in the synagogue were very angry when they heard that

--Luke 4

But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house." 58 Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

--Mat 13

Jesus tells them their faith, and the measure of their faith, has made them whole.

Matthew 9:20-22, 27-30a (KJV) And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment: For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.... [27] And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us. And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. And their eyes were opened.

Our faith, which is in Jesus and comes through Jesus, heals us.

Acts 3:16 By faith in the name of JESUS, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is JESUS' name and the faith that comes through HIM that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.

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Paul Hazelwood

Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

If God causes man to do something, man will do it.

If God causes me to make my bed in the grave, I will make my bed in the grave.

1 Samuel 2:6The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

If I program a computer to make a calculation, the COMPUTER will make that calculation, because I have programmed it so.

Whats actually missing is the the explanation to the whole limitless God thing. Certainly we hear "God is absolutely limitless" so then this causes the wrong perspective, so people then have start thinking God programmed a Rape and since He is God it's A OK. Yeah BOy

Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

--Mark 9

Still doesn't explain how an unbeliever can be healed.

Because all men have a measure of faith--so they might be ignorant, but they are without excuse.

22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

--Mark 9

Still doesn't explain how an unbeliever can be healed.

I know I came into this in the middle but an unbeliever is healed or not because he is part of the whole. An unbeliever is as much a part of the plan of the Whole as a believer is, isn't 'he'?

Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

--Mark 9

Still doesn't explain how an unbeliever can be healed.

I know I came into this in the middle but an unbeliever is healed or not because he is part of the whole. An unbeliever is as much a part of the plan of the Whole as a believer is, isn't 'he'?

cp

The issue of healing often remains in the realm of earned credits. Christianity by and large (perhaps not every church) teaches that the only thing keeping you from your total healing is you. So you have churches with many depressed people constantly thinking that what they do not get is only because they have not pleased God enough yet.

I have even heard the explanation that unbelievers get healed because Satan healed them in order to keep them from acknowledging God. Pretty good trick actually, except for one problem, ALL good comes from God.

I'm not sure if I can get across what I am seeing but the healed and not healed, Jesus, satan, the rain, the sunshine, the faithful, the faithless are all ingredients of the Whole, of Life.

I remember a scene in one of the Batman movies where the Joker is telling Batman that he (Joker) 'made' Batman and Batman 'made' him. Couldn't have one without the other.

We can't have our cake without all the ingredients.

Why does God allow evil? We wouldn't be us without it now would we?

Who is responsible for the actions of each particle in the product? Easy. The particle and the Whole for one would not be without the other.

Again, I am saying, our disagreements and arguments are because we are seeing God as separate from His creation. He is not. We are all a whole unit. We would not and could not be who and what we are without each particle.

Zeek

I'm not sure if I can get across what I am seeing but the healed and not healed, Jesus, satan, the rain, the sunshine, the faithful, the faithless are all ingredients of the Whole, of Life.

I remember a scene in one of the Batman movies where the Joker is telling Batman that he (Joker) 'made' Batman and Batman 'made' him. Couldn't have one without the other.

We can't have our cake without all the ingredients.

Why does God allow evil? We wouldn't be us without it now would we?

Who is responsible for the actions of each particle in the product? Easy. The particle and the Whole for one would not be without the other.

Again, I am saying, our disagreements and arguments are because we are seeing God as separate from His creation. He is not. We are all a whole unit. We would not and could not be who and what we are without each particle.

cp

So if God is his creation, or "one with it", then he is "one" with evil?? He is the whole?? He is "evil and love" too??

Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

--Mark 9

Hi! Molly

I figure that you might be the person for me to ask this; after all you are a 5000+ Poster here and would know what's happening an' stuff.

Maybe it's my imagination, I dunno, but I am getting the impression that there are many people in here who seem to have a serious lack of disciplined knowledge; by that I mean, scripturally consistent. Most surprising of all to me is that some people seem to be lacking even the basics of instruction/learning.Things like: Who is God and what is He like?, Who is Jesus?, What is God's ultimate intention and purpose for His creation?, What happened when we were Born Again?, What is the Kingdom of God? ... and similar items which are so integral to our Christian experience.

Everyone here seem to be clutching their 'starting point' quite admirably; meaning to say: their anti-Eternal Torment sentiments; and, that's a good thing.

But I am reminded of those other Forums which have many crowded around a singular focused idea too, (eg: Oneness, pre-Trib/post-Trib, Sonship and what have you). These too all seem very capable of expressing what they are AGAINST; but very few of their discussions manage to summarize in any cohesive or consistent manner about what they are FOR. In my opinion, any exclusive/singular preoccupation and focus, (no matter what it might be), has its own inherent risks.

Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

I'm not sure if I can get across what I am seeing but the healed and not healed, Jesus, satan, the rain, the sunshine, the faithful, the faithless are all ingredients of the Whole, of Life.

I remember a scene in one of the Batman movies where the Joker is telling Batman that he (Joker) 'made' Batman and Batman 'made' him. Couldn't have one without the other.

We can't have our cake without all the ingredients.

Why does God allow evil? We wouldn't be us without it now would we?

Who is responsible for the actions of each particle in the product? Easy. The particle and the Whole for one would not be without the other.

Again, I am saying, our disagreements and arguments are because we are seeing God as separate from His creation. He is not. We are all a whole unit. We would not and could not be who and what we are without each particle.

cp

So if God is his creation, or "one with it", then he is "one" with evil?? He is the whole?? He is "evil and love" too??

Is this what u are saying?

God is only perfectly good, thus all He creates, and may I say, all that is created from what He creates, must ultimately be perfectly good, musn't it?

Again, just thinking out loud here.

I just don't see God shying away from associating Himself from evil. I'm thinking, like someone said on this forum a while back, that there is evil and there is evil. Looking at evil from the natural perspective is different from seeing evil from the spiritual perspective.

So many words in Scripture point to God outright connecting Himself to evil. Amos 3.8, Is45.7 I think are just a few. I know these can be explained away but I don't think so.

Evil is part of the whole whether we like it or not. God is the Whole, no way around that. Evil did not sneak up on God in any way shape or form. Evil is here, it is part of the Whole.

God is not evil and love IMO. God is love, evil is an ingredient.

Great questions as always, Zeek. You got me thinking again!

cp

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For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Paul Hazelwood

Maybe it's my imagination, I dunno, but I am getting the impression that there are many people in here who seem to have a serious lack of disciplined knowledge; by that I mean, scripturally consistent. Most surprising of all to me is that some people seem to be lacking even the basics of instruction/learning.

Who?

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Paul Hazelwood

Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Religion has plenty of these supposed places, who will be chosen to equip and train us? The one with the most posts here?