Singapore's reputation

The lawyer representing convicted drug trafficker Nguyen Tuong Van has launched a blistering attack on Singapore's use of the mandatory death penalty regime ahead of his client's likely execution on Friday.

With some calling for consumer boycotts and other protests, has the Nguyen decision irrevocably damaged Australia's relationship with Singapore? Has the saga changed the way you view Singapore?This forum is now closed

Posted
by YourSayNovember 30, 2005 7:59 AM

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"I have no doubt that the laws and values that are practiced in Singapore have made it a place in which it is safe to live."

It is always safer living by the rules in a dictatorship. Maybe you should ask the former opposition leader why he is now broke and selling his books on street corners, but don't let the authorities hear you speak.

Posted by: Andrew R on December 1, 2005 7:16 AM

Kate at November 30, 2005 01:47 PM

Kate - you ask what the execution of a drug courier will achieve in an international, multi-billion dollar industry. You are right. It sounds small but imagine if everyone did it. This international multi-billion dollar industry has also caused families to be broken and innocence to be destroyed. If every single country sat back and didn't do anything about drugs what would the world come to? The reason some think that this one thing may not amount to anything is becasue no one else is willing to stand up against these drug couriers and drug lords. I like the see the sitiation from a different standpoint and say that the Singapore Government has prevented someone in Australia from earning A$1 million by selling 26,000 hits to the people in Australia. With 26,000 hits out there, do you think it's possible that someone will die from an overdose or kill to get hold of money to get the drugs?

Posted by: vanessa on December 1, 2005 7:12 AM

Like Bali, Singapore is just another place in Asia to fly over on the way to somewhere civilized.

Remember when you arrive in Singapore there is a sign " The penalty for trafficing drugs is DEATH " So he either cannot read or was very stupid.

Posted by: Sven L on December 1, 2005 7:09 AM

Singapore has proved that it is a barbaric and uncivilised nation that is not fit to take its place in the world community. It may have the facade of a developed democratic nation, but behind that facade is a deeply entrenched culture of repression and inhumane behaviour. The US states that still sanction the death penalty are no better, although the US justice system is likely to have provided this young man with a more balanced trial and a less barbaric punishment. I for one will never set foot in the banana republic of Singapore ever again.

Posted by: John I on December 1, 2005 7:09 AM

I have to say that I am surprised about the "no physical contact" law that is in place, even for prisoners on the death sentence. I do feel that the government should be more lenient about this.

However, like several others who have already commented, I do not feel that the punishment that Nguyen is facing should be waived. When this issue was first published in The Age, I have to admit feeling sorry for Nguyen becasue of his reasons for carrying the drugs. However, a judical system cannot function if the laws can be bent for various cases. If this happens, it will simply set the law to be disobeyed. And if the law can be disobeyed, what will happen next? The judicial system cannot give into emotion.

Posted by: vanessa on December 1, 2005 6:57 AM

No, my view on Singapore stays the same. NVT is a criminal. The problem are Australia's hypocrits (many on this site)plus revenue and sensation driven media beating this nonsense up.
I is a disgrace to Australia that it appears to support their own criminals not to Singapore.

Posted by: disgrace to australia on December 1, 2005 6:54 AM

He's a drug smuggler, and knew the risks of smuggling drugs through Singapore. or other Asian countries with the mandatory death penaltys

It's 400 grams of Heroin (26,000 deals) off the streets of Australia.

You do the crime do the time.

Posted by: Albert P on December 1, 2005 6:52 AM

How can a government justify killing someone? when if i or anyone was to kill someone we would either go to jail or get hung ourselves? I dont believe what he did was right, but come on! how can a person/gov be justified in killing and another not? God help us all!

Posted by: Jason on December 1, 2005 6:41 AM

Singapore has their own rule, nobody ever said the world countries should follow Aussie's compasionate laws.

The guy should know the consequences of bring drugs into Singapore, and yet he did it. THinking that he could escape the punishment. What an idiot. Too bad he is caught in Singapore, he deserves to die by the law.

If he had really changed, well good for him, see him in heaven. Otherwise, see him in hell.

Posted by: Shawn on December 1, 2005 6:15 AM

Being Singaporean, I have a few things to say regarding this issue...Personally I admire Australia and the amount of freedom that it's citizens enjoy.I enjoy visiting Australia and find the people very friendly. However, I wish to share with you my point of view.

Most of your arguements are centred around giving him a second chance and that no one has a right to kill.

Firstly, I am against capital punishment for any crime whatsoever and would have prefered if he got life imprisonment.

BUT.If everyone deserved a second chance, why are people who committed a crime by entering Australia illegally being locked up in detention centres such as Villawood where conditions are quite astonishing. Why don't you guys give them all a second chance and let them all out into the cities?I mean as you say Singaporeans have no freedom and everything, but what about those poor refugees?I don't see them being any better off. Protest to your govt about that then!

Also, your then immigration minister and current attoney general deported an Australian PR to Serbia right? Where is your united Australian sprit now? Give him a second chance then and allow him back in then! His familiy is constantly on the news telling you how sad they are. They suffer too! Why is their suffering somewhat ignored as compared to the suffering of NVT family?

No offence to any Australian, but you guys should practice what you preach!

On the other hand, I do feel that our govt has no right to take away the life of anyone, let alone a foreigner. But, he made the choice. We should respect the laws of whereever we're in. Like when I go to Australia, I know I'm not allowed to bring in any foodstuff and wooden stuff according to your customs law, so I don't. But imagine if all tourists didn't respect it and brought in all those stuff and jeopardised your agriculture and environment.

And about boycotting Optus and Singapore Airlines.

FYI: Qantas makes 3 direct flights to London, a flight to Frankfurt daily and many other flights to major Australian cities from Singapore. Singapore Airlines on the other hand as of now only operates flights that terminate in Australian cities. Imagine if Singaporeans decided to boycott Australian products too!

There's Jurlique products, Holden cars, and most of the ice cream in Singaporean supermarkets would be left on the shelves. Gelare, Max Brenners and Country Road as well.

In my opinion, a mutual boycott is childish and would harm only ourselves. Face it, we need each other! Don't let this criminal affect our relationship.

Posted by: Clare on December 1, 2005 6:11 AM

the question is not of guilt but the disproportionate sentence.We need Singapore to know how many australians died for their country saving them against japan and how many more lives do they want to take.The death penality solves nothing at all and takes away any right of punishment remembering dead people feel no pain.

The best outcome would have been 2 lashes of the ratik cane then sent home to show the scares bared for his crime as a reminder to all that drugs are not tolerated in overseas countries.

They say its the law and can not be overturned well perhaps we should start convicting singapore people that bring in food items that are not passed by quarintine or even hang them ? No that will never happen as we as australians put a great value on human life.

Posted by: david on December 1, 2005 6:11 AM

What a media circus drawing in all the clowns..
Don't see all these do-gooders complaining about the US and their capital punishment laws or is there an underlying racism issue.
Lets Boycott McDonalds!

Posted by: Chris Z on December 1, 2005 6:10 AM

I don't see anything wrong with that the Singapore government stands by its law. If it changes the conviction because people in other countries protest, thw law becomes nothing but trash.

Posted by: Good Luck on December 1, 2005 6:06 AM

As an American that is opposed to death penalty I am often forced to look to other countries for examples of how a justice system should be run. Singapore, however, is worse than us! I think this nation has no place in the civilized world. Australia should cut all ties with this country, and stop at nothing to get Nguyen released (I really don't consider drug trade that serious of a crime), that includes threatening them militarily if necessary! (The first time I've ever advocated for a George Bush type tactic)

Posted by: Bryan J on December 1, 2005 5:53 AM

I find it a bit rich for a country that has yet to come to terms with her contemptuous treatment of the indigenuous Aborigines to take the moral high ground in criticising Singapore and other Asian countries for our strict drug laws.

Between 1900 - 1970, more than 30,000 Aboriginal children were forcibly taken away from their families and placed in institutions where they were forbidden from learning their language and customs. This was termed the 'stolen generation'.

In 1997, the UN Human Rights Commission released a 689 page report accusing the Australian government of genocide defined under International Law as the forcible removal of children to a different cultural group "with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, the group".

The report called for official apologies and financial recompense to the Aborigines for the assimilation policy.

To date, no Australian government has issued an official apology.

Let's not forget too the hypocrisy Australia has shown over the death penalty issue. The same critics of Nguyen's hanging have openly endorsed the death penalty for the Bali bombers.

Singapore has nothing to be ashamed of and neither should we make any apologies for our laws.

We have compelling reasons for our laws and these laws are applied fairly across the board to Singaporeans and foreigners alike.

Let's get one thing straight. Nguyen has committed a very serious offence.

This was a man caught smuggling almost 400g of heroin. Our laws are very clear as to the consequences for committing such a serious crime.

The disembarkation card clearly states that the death penalty is mandatory for drug offences. Our airport too displays such warnings prominently.

Nguyen knew what he was getting himself into if he were to be caught, yet he deliberately chose to take the risk. In this case, our government has found no grounds for clemency.

Importing and spreading of drugs is a form of social terrorism. Don't blame Singapore for our strict laws. Blame the drugs.

Posted by: Jerry on December 1, 2005 5:47 AM

Not at all. I totally support the death penalty for serious crimes. A lot of people who oppose the death penalty fail to see the main purpose of punishment - deterrant to potential law offenders. Compare death penalty with medicine. All drugs have side effects which in extreme cases can be fatal. You can't say medicine is bad just because it kills people. Leniency is as bad as underdose or stopping before the course is completed. The frenzy around this case is irrational, but is actually helping Singapore's course - deterring future traffickers. So, the louder the noise the better.

Posted by: wyw on December 1, 2005 5:36 AM

Singapore's government argues, hanging Nguyen would deter future criminals, and not hanging him would send a wrong message. That's SOCIALLY true, but also that's unfair to Nguyen because Singapore is USING HIM for its own selfish purpose of keeping its country safe from future criminals. It's not Nguyen's responsibilty to keep Singapore from FUTURE criminals, and he should not be used as a scape goat for that purpose.

Posted by: Mike Tran on December 1, 2005 5:35 AM

Everyone please take a deep breath
and hear me out. We humans are different from animals because we have compassion, from which we don't always mechanically use punishment in direct relation to crime. The most important word here is "mechanically." Back in the Dark Ages, we mechanically retaliated "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." That may be why so many primitive people were toothless and eyeless.

In today's advanced world, we grant and receive compassion in many circumstances. Many lazy people don't want to work, but we give them food and medicine nevertheless. We don't let them die on the streets and say "you deverse to die, lazy bastards." Animals that don't look for food would starve, but humans shouldn't, not because they deserve free food, but because we have compassion for them. Compassion is what makes humans humans.

All of us are sinners. All of us are criminals if judged by some cultures, some people. All of us need compassion, forgiveness, most of the time. What if your government decides to retroactively punish you for every single time you speed since you received your driver's license? Of course you did speed, but would you deserve to become bankrupt for those sins? What if God condemns you to hell the FIRST time you did something that God decides as too bad, such as sex outside marriage?

To Australians, what if your founding fathers had been condemned to death in Britain instead of being shipped there to your beautiful country now? Your founding fathers were "criminals" in the eye of the British court too, but having a chance to make a living in a different environment, they became great people that you respect today. To the Anglicans, weren''t your founders condemned to hell by the Pope, ex-communicated, etc.? Australia was founded by sinners, or even criminals, in the eyes of the British Court, the Pope BACK THEN. But were they really, in your views, and even in the Brits' and the Pope's views NOW? Crimes are not absolute, never were and never will be. Singapore has a lot of investments in many countries that criminalizes things like an intact clitoris, sex outside marriage, homosexuality, adultery, alcohol, female driving, etc.

Singapore's government argues, hanging Nguyen would deter future criminals, and not hanging him would send a wrong message. That's SOCIALLY true, but also that's unfair to Nguyen because Singapore is USING HIM for its own selfish purpose of keeping its country safe from future criminals. It's not Nguyen's responsibilty to keep Singapore from FUTURE criminals, and he should not be used as a scape goat for that purpose.

Legally, Singapore does absolutely nothing wrong in this case. Morally, it does. A lot. It has no moral authority to condemn Nguyen or anyone to die, while it still invests in many countries that behead many people for things such as drinking alcohol or committing adultery, which many Singaporeans do on daily basis. It also has absolutely no compassion for a man that did something wrong but tolerable in many other countries, including his own.

Our world would be a condemned place to live if we work on legality, but not on morality and compassion. Too bad, Singapore is already such a place.

Posted by: Michael T on December 1, 2005 5:33 AM

hey i am from singapore and i stay here all my life..and believe me i never enjoy living here..yes our streets are clean and maybe safer to walk but i never feel safe because i feel the citizen are always under the watchful eyes of our government. People like u like coming to singapore as tourist. You stay for a few days and off u head back to home.

I advise those who really think Singapore is heaven come here to stay as a permanent citizen and see if u feel the same again. Anyway if death penalty really help to deter people from doing drugs trafficking or murder..WHY ARE WE STILL HANGING PEOPLE EVERY FORNIGHT?(WE HAVE THE HIGHEST PER CAPITA NUMBERS OF EXECUTIONS IN THE WORLD)there should not be any hanging anymore..the problems should already been solved..that show that death penalty doesn't work right..i prefer my government to be a forgiving and a compassionate one..

Posted by: james n on December 1, 2005 5:27 AM

What a Joke. The Bug has to stop somewhere. Before you coming knocking on our door, telling us how babaric, arrgoant or pretentious we are, or even tell us how we should manage ourselve. I sincerely thank you all for your deepest concern about my country and its people. However, please look at your own backyard first, there is more problems need fixing than bashing on some else door.

Some of the fixing list include,
Victoria police scandal
the appalling condition of your Aborigines (Just shy of a oncentration camp for Aborigines)

Where else do you get to be a drug trafficker and at the same receive treatment as a war hero. A racist ex-politian that get glorify on "Dancing with the Star" program. Irresponsible media that rather ignore the facts for a higher viewership.

Van knew the consequences but still decided to carry out his action. It a risk worthy as if he get caught upon arrival in Sydney, cause he can get way with it , at worst a life sentence. If he is not caught, which is unlikely, cause Australian Custom are no fool when you are travelling with 400g of drug, he can be rich and still pay off his twin brother "GAMBLIING" debts. Too bad, he is caught in Singapore while transiting. My sympathy gone to his mother. If he had his poor mother in thought, he should not have done it in the first place.

Yes, we do have a case in Sydney where a singaporean kill Singaporean. We did not bring the murder home for hanging because to like to excuate people. The crime happen in Australia and we respect your law. Why not boycott People Republic of China too for its human right record? They are too trying to manage it people it way deem right. Democrarcy with chinese character. Remember, to look at the label of every product you use. They all are made and come from many countries, which you would deem babaric or even arrogant. Check you label Next then you buy.

Can you afford to boycott? and who is going to be your next victim? We live in a global community, like it or not. There will be differences in belief and culture.

Comments heards some far, about boycotting and minutes of slience, i found them laughable. Some say hanging is not the solution as it does not solve any problem. Well, by boycotting us, a popluation of just 4 millions with no natural resources is a mature thing to do? Nothing change. You can hate us or even call us names, in time you will see who is right.

The only compose people here are PM Mr John Howard and all sensible Aussies. Making the right decision can be tough in Australia. It is always aboout what is popluar that what is right. When someone try to do the right thing, you have your jumpy opposition party that jump on any opportunities its get regardless of facts as long as it can cause outrage, trade union protest that disrupt city function, where IR aim to make the country more competive. What government in the world will introduce a policy that will harm its people, crazy one perhaps. It is the pressure from popular opinions and irresponsible media, that making this country even greater is so damn difficult. My sympathy to those who try hard to do the right thing in this country. If this trend carry on, The real worry is when Mr John Howard leaves office.

When we come to drug issue, everyone is a loser, even if Singapore cave in, which is unlikely now, that does not consitute a victory to Australia. You will only be a bigger loser, who will be known as a bully that muscle your way through when you see things that not deem popular.

Posted by: LEE on December 1, 2005 5:21 AM

I have read with absolute dismay some of the comments posted on this forum. From the poster urging a change of focus to Industrial relations fearing the tragic loss of $5 per hour to his paypacket , to a multitude of other posters justifying the taking of a life in order to save another/s.

This case is not just about TVN its about the fundamental beliefs we have as Australians towards humanity. It simply and clearly highlights the opposing views of both cultures.

Laws are a reflection of the values and beliefs that underpin a specific society.
This case has clearly highlighted the fundamental differences between Singaporeans ( if infact mandatory death sentencing is reflective of a majority of the citizens of Singapore ) and Australians.

As Australians we know first hand what it is that differentiates us in the world today. It's our belief that we are all entitled to participate in the positives and negatives of life. In the successes and failures of life . it's the realisation that we are all human. A part of being human is the realisation that we all make mistakes yet we have always believed that change and redemption is possible.

This is where we differ, Our fundamental views regarding the value and potential of this life.

There is not one person that would disagree that the trafficking of drugs is not a serious crime. A crime that deserves severe punishment. Punishment that deters others from participating in the same acts.

But to suggest that the taking of a life is the way to achieve that objective is in my opinion both simplistic, barbaric, inhumane and UN AUSTRALIAN.

For those of you that argue that he was apprehended in Singapore not Australia and should therefore be subjected to the Singaporean justice system, you are right.

But my beliefs do not change when I cross a border, nor do my values take a momentary back seat.
No individual or group of individuals in my view has the right to take the life of another, be it TVN indirectly or the Singaporean government directly.

yes this case has damaged the way in which I will view Singapore its people and its products from this point on. It has highlighted an irreconcilable difference, One on which as an Australian I cannot compromise.

Posted by: Vin on December 1, 2005 5:14 AM

If hanging Nguyen seems like a human rights offence, have a look at the following case from Iran. It tells the tail of some minors executed for the 'crime' of homosexuality just a few months ago. I believe its the most sickeninng story of capital punishment I have read.

The drugs were meant for Australia. Nguyen was in transit here. Singapore shouldn't have the jurisdiction for punishing Nguyen. And even if it insists that it has, then it shouldn't have sentenced Nguyen to death because Nguyen wasn't trafficking drugs for consumption in Singapore, to Singaporeans.

If someone from Australia and is in transit here in Singapore, wrote a death threat or a bomb threat to someone in Australia, does it mean that Singapore has the right to charge this person?

The crime may have been committed here but the victim(s) is not here. Assuredly it is the Australians who should try and convict this person.

It's rather ridiculous what is happening.

Posted by: Kojan on December 1, 2005 4:36 AM

With all the comments and calls for mercy for one druggie,what will it be like for nine?

Posted by: Bob K on December 1, 2005 4:30 AM

I am not against the death penalty for drug smuggling but let's be fair here Singapore - BURMA is soon to become (Afghanistan is moving into 2nd) the world's largest exporter of heroin and yaba(ecstasy) and yet here we have these hypocritical Singaporean government officials prostituting themselves worldwide about the evils of heroin while millions of $$ of drug money from BURMA lies in Singaporean bank accounts owned by the drug lords of BURMA!!

They prop up the world's number one drug Exporter, BURMA - they go out of their way to allow such scum as Khunsar and his mates to visit Singapore regularly and have open trade with them depositing millions $$ in their banks and then give us this completely rotten moral story that they are against drugs?

Singapores so called hard stance against drugs is no more no less than a cover for their collusion with the drug lords of BURMA and they KNOW IT only too well. Don't be fooled people, Sinapore benefits more from drugs from BURMA than any country on earth and is just using hangings like this as a smokescreen to fool the world into thinking they are 'squeaky clean' when it comes to drugs but in reality this marriage to the drug lords of BURMA represents Singapores 'thoroughly rotten morals.

If true justice were to be applied using their very own criteria the very first to hang for drug offences would be the Singaporean government and Prime Minister. They are in it (drug money) up to their necks.

Posted by: DNA on December 1, 2005 4:25 AM

I have always found Singapore a souless place and now I feel it has no heart either. No one can deny Nguyen is guilty but to execute someone for any crime is barbaric and to hang them is truly monsterous. I feel sick thinking about what he will go through and can not imagine what his mother must be going through.

The world is all upside down these days. Tobacco and alcohol kills far more than narcotics or terrorism.

Thinking of terrorists and dictators, anybody check when there was a change of government in Singapore? It was when they broke away from Malaysia and have been run by the same family ever since. Not really different to a dictatorship and definetly not a free country.

May Nguyen have a quick passing and find peace with God. I pray his mother will remember him for the good in him and not his horrible end in this world.

Posted by: John C on December 1, 2005 4:20 AM

The death penalty in all countries is evil and should be abolished. Those who advocate it's use would do well to remember those who it is applied to mostly minorites and those who are poor. As an Australian i feel very proud of the fact that we do not condone it's use and do not have it in our country. A young man is going to die. I for one will not visit Singapore or use their national airline until they revoke their use of this barbaric punishment.

Posted by: Tal on December 1, 2005 4:15 AM

"AN AUSTRALIAN woman detained in the Indian Ocean island of Mauritius after being arrested with 3.5 kilograms of heroin allegedly hidden in her luggage had not been charged with any offence, a Department of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman said yesterday"

Whoa, Australian again? So Australia is the No. 1 producer of drug trafficker? Australia like that? I rest my case.

Posted by: Sam on December 1, 2005 4:14 AM

Enough already with this issue....

He is a guilty drug trafficker, in Singapore the law is clear (in capital letters on their arrival cards as I recall)

End of story - everything else is irrelvant, including whether you agree with the sentence, Singaporean laws, or the death penalty in general.

Talk of boycotts, sanctions and one minutes silence are plain ridiculous.

And no it hasn't changed they way I look at Singapore (I would never have been stupid enough to bring drugs there before all this)

Posted by: James E on November 30, 2005 1:56 PM

To Michael,

Thought the debate was in reference to a certain person being hanged in Singapore this Friday morning, not on differences between expats and locals living in Singapore.

I quite enjoy the fact that Singapore happens to be a safe place to live for my family and I as it is for all Singaporean residents. Not just expats. Even you enjoy that whether you like it or not.

Singapore is a soverign nation which has its own laws. If you break those laws, then you are severely punished. Associated with that, it has a culture with values and ideals which are different from Australia and should not be judged on the basis of Australian values and ideals. How would Australian's react if Singapore or any other nation was judging Australian laws? I suspect not well.

I have no doubt that the laws and values that are practiced in Singapore have made it a place in which it is safe to live. And if you don't wish to abide by them, then you should fear the cameras watching you.

Posted by: John S. on November 30, 2005 1:55 PM

Why Nguyen must die.

Exactly, where are all the anti-death penalty critics when the countries like the US, China, Vietnam etc? carry out executions. Yes its said to lose a life, however I?d rather save the innocent. Most comments in this forum support this, so why does the media insist on reporting on why Australians are outraged. The fact is WE ARE NOT.

And those parents that say they are happy that Van's didn't reach their kids, well, maybe you should also look a look at your parentiing skills. Teach kids that drugs are a big NO.

If people stop wanting drugs (which I doubt as it has been around for centuries), then there will be less demand for them, and thus, less drug smuggling.

Posted by: Katie on November 30, 2005 1:55 PM

We should be thankful to Sinagapore for doing the dirty job for us & save tax payers' money for better usage (if he got caught in Australia). I do feel sorry for Nguyen's family escpecialy his mother.

Posted by: Dan on November 30, 2005 1:55 PM

To the Singaporean lawyer who said that the Singaporean judicial system is presided over by honourable people -

Be that as it may, everything and every institution in Singapore is controlled by the Singaporean Government. Especially the legal courts.

A judge in a democratic country would be able to exercise leniency as he or she sees fit. A Singaporean judge would not enjoy such jurisdiction.

Trials in Singapore are a farce. Verdicts are set in stone and heavily influenced by the despots in reign.

The Singaporean judicial system is a joke. Executing Nguyen under a mandatory death sentence only further demonstrates this. MANDATORY, get it? What a joke.

Posted by: YeahRight on November 30, 2005 1:55 PM

Omega L, the website link you have provided gives no accusations against the Singapore government merely stating that "as a transportation and financial services hub, Singapore is vulnerable, despite strict laws and enforcement, to be used as a transit point for Golden Triangle heroin and as a venue for money laundering." To my mind this reinforces their position as the Burma entry gives no detail on foreign investment.

Posted by: James on November 30, 2005 1:54 PM

Wot Andy said! I absolutely agree with you.

And Daniel - I always that kid should have got 24 lashes and not 6 or 12. He sounded like a right little annoyance. I never thought Clinton should have interfered.

Posted by: Kim on November 30, 2005 1:54 PM

To all who say they have visited Singapore "many times" before and think it's a "despicable" and "undemocratic, stifling, despotic, narrow-minded, unrepentant, arrogant and blood-thirsty" place, please just STOP going to Singapore. It's strange how you detest a country so much but still KEEP GOING BACK.

And for those who think you'll be better off without Singapore-related trade, by all means boycott Optus, Singapore Airlines and yeap, cut off your gas and electricity supply. At the same time, start sourcing for LOADS of storage space to hold all the stuff that you export to Singapore.

In the meantime, let Singapore continue to enjoy their above-average standard of living as they continue trade with the rest of the world, live in peace and safety in a well regulated lawful society, and hey, i reckon they have a dang good right to be arrogant about what they've achieved in their country's history!

Posted by: pj on November 30, 2005 1:54 PM

You need a licence in this country to drive a car yet anyone can have kids.

Drug abuse starts in the home. Stop morons having kids and we'll see a huge decline in herion use.

I know there is about as much logic in that statement as there is in a Singapore politician but hey, read the rest of the posts

Posted by: John S on November 30, 2005 1:53 PM

I would not be too hasty to trot out the figures quoted by the Singaporean government to justify its laws. 26000? Try 2,600,000 (396gx1000=396kg) which was roughly the recond amount of heroin seized by the Australian police. Wow 2.6 million lives saved back then. That 10% of the Australian population.

Posted by: Omega L on November 30, 2005 1:53 PM

I would not be too hasty to trot out the figures quoted by the Singaporean government to justify its laws. 26000? Try 2,600,000 (396gx1000=396kg) which was roughly the recond amount of heroin seized by the Australian police. Wow 2.6 million lives saved back then. That 10% of the Australian population.

Posted by: Omega L on November 30, 2005 1:53 PM

I live my life by the motto that "there is no one true way". But it is not for us to judge whether death is appropriate for a crime committed. I would rather leave that to God. We can however keep this man imprisoned so that he can think about what he has done, and not turn around 10 years later and realise that there was a mistake, only to find that our sentence is irreversible.

Posted by: Irene on November 30, 2005 1:52 PM

While my heart goes out to Van's mother, I believe that Singapore has the right to keep its own laws. Who are the Australians to preach to Singapore about how the country should be run? What moral high ground does Australia have when there are more drug pushers and abusers on the street in Australia than in Singapore? You can take a walk down any road in Singapore safely in Singapore in the middle of the night. Can you confidently do the same in Australia? What gives you the right to pass judgement that the drugs laws in Singapore do not work when the biggest joke is that Australia has a worse drug problem than Singapore? I am amazed at the public ourcry which has resulted from the hanging of a drug trafficker. While I feel for Van's mother, the fact is that the law has been broken.

The law applies to everyone, regardless of nationality, skin color or social status. Why should clemecy be granted to someone just because their government exerts pressure on the government of Singapore? Should Singapore then also grant clemancy to every other drug trafficker on the death row? Shouldn't Australia appeal to the Indonesian government to waive the death sentence for the Bali bombers too? Why the double standard?

Posted by: Tan on November 30, 2005 1:51 PM

If this issue makes so many people ticked by the hanging, wait till the 9 traffickers in Bali are found guilty. Hmmm...do you think they will be in living in Indonesia for long? I would be reading all the comments then.

Posted by: Simon on November 30, 2005 1:51 PM

STICKING TO THE POINT...
Nope - this has not altered my perception of Singapore at all. I still know it's a beautiful place, full of wonderful people, fantastic food and great shopping, with an authoritarian government that will KILL you if you are stupid enough to be found with drugs on their soil. Same old Singapore it has always been, I'd definitely go back again.

Posted by: DH on November 30, 2005 1:51 PM

It is saddening that the issue of a man's life is being politicised.I am strongly against drug trafficking and all other socially unacceptable behaviours which negatively impacts on the human race.
The Issue here is, does anyone deserve to lose his/her life for such thing as drug trafficking,which many are still involved in all over the world including Singapore?I think this is a lazy and unthoughtful way of dealing with the problem by the Singaporean Government.
I find the arguments proferred by the Singaporean Ambassador to Australia very sickening,while i don't see the drug pusher as a star,i think the main reason "why he must die" quoting the Singaporean Ambassador is that he's just a nobody.Had he been the son of one of the top government officials in Singapore,the world will be singing a different tune today.
Now let him who has no sin cast the first stone!

Posted by: ABIMBOLA on November 30, 2005 1:48 PM

Who will gain from all this? The media. The media coverage is just too appauling.

Respect the laws of other country. Every house has a house rule. Just as you would respect the house rules when you visit someone else's home.

You can only agree or disagree with views but taking beyond a healthy discussion like boycott is simply immature like a child throwing tantrums at parents.

Posted by: Brian on November 30, 2005 1:48 PM

Taking a pragmatic approach, exactly what will the execution of a drug courier achieve? International drug running is a multi-billion dollar business. Higher risks in that context just mean higher costs to the suppliers, not the abandonment of a lucrative market. So as a result of the publicity given to this case, couriers' wages are about to go up. Seekers after a quick buck are notoriously neither rational nor risk-averse. While higher risk may deter some individuals, higher incentives wll also attract others into the courier business. So upping the ante seems predictably pointless and certainly tragic. What else is new in this ludicrous "war on drugs"? Good one, Singapore.

Posted by: Kate on November 30, 2005 1:47 PM

Don't get fooled by the article of Mr. Koh and how "touched" he and his fellow Singaporean leaders are.....as a matter of fact, there was recently an article in the local (SIngaporean) paper how good it was to stand up against "mighty USA" when they caned an American Teenager for Vandalism in the 80's or 90's. They were really proud of it.....
And I bet there will be similar articles in the future how good it was that Singapore stood frim against Australia...
The "Minister Mentor" (pathetic title for former PM and father of present PM) Lee had called Australia "white trash of Asia" once - you can find it on the net if you type the quote into google.

And to put it into perspective: The brother of the PM runs Singtel (which owns OPTUS) and the wife of the PM is the CEO of Temasek Holding....I am not sure if there are more family members running the show

Posted by: Michael on November 30, 2005 1:46 PM

"Chris at November 30, 2005 01:13 PM

Chris, you wrote that if Singapore have met with some unforeseen circumstances, you would be donating. Did you donate for people in Indonesia when they were hit by Tsunami last December? Australian died in Bali Bombings too. If you did not donate at all, bless your heart.

Posted by: Simon on November 30, 2005 1:46 PM

Come Saturday December 3rd. All the Australians will be going into Christmas shopping mode and the issue with NTV and the boycott would have been forgotten.

They will be purchasing presents, decorations, extra coffee and chocolates etc. that made in either Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, or China and all of them support the death penalty.

Have a happy (or hypocritical) Christmas.

Posted by: Charles W on November 30, 2005 1:46 PM

This hanging is better then a Clint Eastwood movie. Keep it comming.

Posted by: Guus on November 30, 2005 1:45 PM

Singapore has been known as a "fine" city, and it has its own set of rules. While it may be a bit harsh to apply death sentence to a drug smuggler with only 0.4kg of drug, one may have a different view when the drug is sold and used by your own kids. To me, it is irrelevant to Singapore reputation; it s about the way we appraoch the drug (or other similar) problems. Everyone travels to and from Singapore knows about its harsh stance to drug trafficking. And if you want to have their mercy after intentionally commit the crime, is there any different from a murderer asking for mercy from the court??

Posted by: Jeff on November 30, 2005 1:45 PM

Terrible tragedy that a young life is being so quickly snuffed out. And that is just the heroin addicts in Australia. Their choice

Nguyen is (was) a drug runner. He taped the drugs to his body. His choice.

Why do we not support a country like Singapore and their laws yet jump in body and soul to support America who also, in some states, advocate the death penalty?

Scotch, whilst you do not get hung for chewing gum in Singapore you certainly get punished for spitting it on the street or littering it somewhere. Wonder if that is why Singapore is so clean. Their harsh stance on drug dealing is possibly why their city is safe.

When you have lived through a mugging and beating on a city street of Melbourne in broad daylight by someone who did it for money to buy heroin (as they stated in the ensuing court cse) then come back to me with your limited views. Until then yell and scream as much as you want about Nguyen case because as part of the beating I (a 30 year old female) endured my eardrum was partially perforated and I suffered permanent hearing loss. Yet the junkie goes on.....

Posted by: Kristen on November 30, 2005 1:44 PM

To err is human. To forgive is divine.

Posted by: aron on November 30, 2005 1:44 PM

Yet another embarrassing (think Shapelle, Michelle etc) case of arrogant, disrespectful Aussies treating other people's countries like their own back yard. Shameful.

Posted by: Dinky Di on November 30, 2005 1:42 PM

I personally was intending to change my telephone to optus, but instead i will be cancelling my internet with them, and staying with telstra.
I will never look at singapore in the same way. It will always be intricately tied to the hanging of a fellow australian. I will do my utmost to never fly singapore airlines or spend any money in their Changi transit lounge. I still have 2 perfumes that i bought there a few weeks ago, which i cannot bare to open. May god bless Van and all his family and friends.

Posted by: van-supporter on November 30, 2005 1:41 PM

No. I have also read the comments of those who disagree with the action of the Spore Govt, and sadly most if not all of those comments are ill-informed, misguided and their reasons totally unfounded.

Posted by: stanley c on November 30, 2005 1:41 PM

To Cherish:
"Think of the teenager American that was caned bec of spray painting. The punishment is worst than the "crime"

Imagine that you worked half your life to buy a car that is worth 300,000 Australian dollars and someone comes along and sprays it into the next clown car. Now imagine that action repeated for a whole array of cars at a parking lot. Are you sure you are not the least angered?

Posted by: Tan on November 30, 2005 1:40 PM

The amount of heroin found on Nguyen was enough to destroy 26,000 Australian lives this alone is good enough reason that this criminal must be executed - if only to deter others.

Posted by: Peter on November 30, 2005 1:39 PM

Three cheers for Singapore!! At last we have a jurisdiction that is not going to mamby pamby with this type of scum! Drug runners and dealers ultimately murder many addicts and cause misery to thousands of others. Giving this guy (and other like him) prison sentences with 3 hot meals a day, clean sheets on the bed and a roof over their head for a few years does nothing to wipe out this type of crime. Australia could learn alot from Singapore on how to deal with these drug scumbags. Get on with the hanging!

Posted by: Jack J on November 30, 2005 1:37 PM

Although I feel for Nguyen's family, He deserves his punishment. Why isn't the media talking about the hundreds of lives that would have been wrecked if Nguyens drug shipment was not intercepted? Singapore is portrayed as a monster when in effect it is Nguyen who is the real monster.

Posted by: Mark on November 30, 2005 1:37 PM

The facts are pure and simple. Roll on friday I say! Nguyen is nothing more than a killer himself! Enough drugs to kill 26,000 people, not just hits. He new the possibilities of incarceration and the death penalty if caught. He took the chance and he lost! I am extrememly thankful to the Singopore justice system and customs, for not only keeping this filth from entering our shores and possibly harming our children but for excercising there own justice and not being persuaded to let this criminal walk away from the gallows by our own powers that be.

Posted by: Brendan K on November 30, 2005 1:37 PM

Stop the Singapore bashing! He's a criminal for god sakes! They're not hanging Mary Poppins! A minute silence? Oh sure why don't we also declare a public holiday for him while we're at!

Yes we all know hanging, shooting, lethal injection, the electric chair etc etc is terrible. Shocking descriptions abound everywhere on the net. There's a simple way so no one has to suffer these...DON'T BREAK THE LAW! Or if you just can't help yourself...do it in a country where there's no death penalty. How hard is that to work out!

Let's move on! I hope after Friday we see all this "save him" energy being put to good use..like fixing the hospital waiting lists, helping the homeless etc.

Posted by: blackcats on November 30, 2005 1:35 PM

Although we have to be aware that all we say here and all the Australian Government does will not change the Singaporean Government's mind (as they would loose face and they can not afford it as they are hardliners)one thing is for sure:
Singapore is aware that it is soooooo small and it is desperately trying to become a "global city" (something that will never happen as this needs creativity and in this culture you have no creativity). So they are longing to be seen as a global thriving place where people like to come to and spend their money.....
If our discussions throws a big 'shadow' on this reputation and gives Singapore a bad image around the globe that is already one achievement.

Always rememeber: if there are any global positive news on Singapore they make it the front page of The Straits Times (local main newspaper that mainly publishes government statements). If there are any negative news they make it to page 15 (if so) and are already "combined" with a comment saying that it is a ll wrong or not that negative etc.

One guy (from Singapore) admitted earlier that there is no freedom of press but that one can get anything from the internet. That is true. But let's face it.....who has the time and energy to do it.....an average Singaporean who has to work hard will only see the local newspaper and the local TV....only real "critics" will pay (quite some) money to get cable TV and then BBC or CNN or ABC and log on the internet to see the other side of the story.
So they are brain washed after all.

Posted by: Michael on November 30, 2005 1:33 PM

" Australians are trying to make a saint out of a drug criminal.
" - Lee

Lee, if you read the posts carefully, you would know that NOBODY is trying to make a saint or a hero out of Van Nguyen. We are protesting about the cruel and inhumane method of punishment that he will suffer this Friday.

We know he is a criminal. But no human beings have a right to take a life of another. Anyway, I think it would be harsher punishment for Van to spend life in Changi than death. Have anyone been there? If so, you probably think death is an easier solution.

Van, if you don't make it through this Friday. I will pray that God forgives you for your sins and hope you will enter the kingdom of heaven. You are going to a better place. Do not be afraid.

Posted by: Pro Life on November 30, 2005 1:31 PM

Ruth (12:02 PM) speaks the truth - it really is as simple as she puts it.

Either killing another human being is wrong, or it isn't. If you are opposed to the killing of human beings in other situations (eg. the crime of murder), but say that state-sanctioned execution is OK, you are quite simply a hypocrite.

Posted by: BC on November 30, 2005 1:31 PM

To Cherish,
Seems that alcohol, chewing gums and illegal stuff are things that rocks to you?

Posted by: Lenox on November 30, 2005 1:30 PM

Has my opinion changed? Yes.

I've been there lots of time (on business) and usually had a good, albeit boring, time. But now I think that these people (Singapore govt) are just barbaric.

I've got no problem killing drug runners but:

1) Hanging is not the way to go (there are more humane ways I'm sure).

2) Not letting this mother hug her son while he's still alive is the lowest act I've ever seen.

Mr. Singapore govt, if you're reading this (and you most likely are) - LET THAT POOR WOMAN GIVE HER SON A HUG.

Posted by: Tony B on November 30, 2005 1:29 PM

Yes, this has changed my views about Singapore. I had thought it a civilised society. I see no justification for State sanctioned murder, its consequences undermine our common humanity. Capital punishment is an easy way out, that means we dont have to solve more difficult problems.

Capital punishment above all denies the possibility of redemption. Often our greatest heros (real or fictious) are people who have made the biggest mistakes and redemed themselves. They are people who go on to forge milestones in our understanding of ourselves as people and as societies. Redemed people have the capacity to change the way we think - through their own weaknesses they confront us with our own but more importantly show us how to move beyond these these often with grace and courage. This appears by all accounts to be the kind of transformation that Van has undergone over the past three years. Its this transformation that has inspired his supporters and will probably continue to. Civilised societies acknowledge their weaknesses and work to resolve these at root cause. Civilised societies see themselves within a broader context and are prepared to work beyond their own boundaries for reasons other than economics. Singapore, like the US is a wealthy country and a powerful one - every time it's govenment kills someone it isolates and retards itself.

Posted by: amanda on November 30, 2005 1:29 PM

I can't believe the way some of you people are talking about Van here. True what he did was wrong, but he is a HUMAN BEING. We are all God's children. Imagine if this was your brother, your son, your friend?

Van comes from an already troubled childhood (his natural father raped his mother and he only met him once), he was beaten frequently by his stepfather, he has been sentenced to die, and now you people are talking about him like he's scum.

Accept the fact that drug addicts are just as bad for CHOOSING to take these drugs.

He did a mistake, but we all make mistakes in our lives. Tell me you had clear logic when you were 22. Some people have committed murder, or rape or molested children, yet they are scot free, walking around in our community.

Show some respect for a fellow human being, and more importantly, Australian citizen.

The Singaporean gov must be laughing their heads off - reading how undivided our nation has become.

The true issue here is the santity of life. No one should die like this, because only God can decide when someone's time is up.

Show some tact and stop being such blood thirsty barbarics.

Posted by: Sarah on November 30, 2005 1:28 PM

Well, if you took your eye off your baggage, and it got swiped, or someone planted drugs in them, I believe the onus is upon you to PROVE it.

For the rest of the whiners in here who support the drug mule, wake up and get a life. Perhaps its time to look at our own laws, think about the effectiveness of how "corrective" our lax laws first, and then LEARN TO RESPECT the laws of another sovereign nation. Ask ourselves, why are there so many druggies around? Because we're a bunch of compassionate people? Or are our laws simply not "corrective enough"? It is precisely because of our inefficiency to deal with such problems effectively, which has resulted in the recent increase of Australians being arrested overseas for drug-related offences. (Corby, Leslie, now Nyugen) My question is, "Does the Australian Government have to keep running to the defence of these criminals, while knowing full well that they are not innocent, and risk damaging the good relations with another country that has been built up over the years?" I do applaud the way the Goverment is handling the issue, I really do; as in, this shows it really do cares for its citizens, and I'm proud to be an Australian as well. BUT, this guy is guilty as hell, and I sure don't want him around spreading the scourge of drugs in Australia.

Keeping a minute's silence?? What is he now? A national hero? Winner of some medal of honour for bravery in war? PLEASE. He's a convicted drug mule, nothing more. Yes, I do sympathise with his mother, but that's the most I'll go. But to resorting to threats and boycotts, it just reflects on the myopic and immature mindset of many of us who are supportive of Van.

Posted by: AnAustralian on November 30, 2005 1:28 PM

Singapore should be charged with murder. Whats the difference between and individual killing someone and a state? Nothing.

Posted by: Peter on November 30, 2005 1:28 PM

Yeah hang the bastard, he knew what he was doing trafficking drugs. Just like the cigarette companies and the booze companies (how many people are killed by the alcohol that is peddled in this country, I'm sure it is a greater number than heroin, or terrorism for that matter).

Let's get things into some perspective.

Posted by: anas on November 30, 2005 1:26 PM

Wait.. lets get things straight...

The PM of Singapore approves of hanging Van...(another words is "killing" Van)... and the Singaporean Law states killers must face the death penalty... right?

Now why don't we give the Singaporean 's PM the same treatment? Because Van's blood will be on his hands (which makes him a killer/murderer)? Now why does the Singaporean government impose a law that he (the leader/PM) can't even fulfill... If Singapore wants to get something done, get the Singaporean PM to lead by example.

I am not biased against Singaporean... and that's why I am thankful that at least there are Singaporeans who still have a mind and a spine who opposes the death penalty and voiced their opinions against the corrupt government.

Suzanne - In regards to your point of the events in Sydney where a Singaporean killed another Singaporean, the reason Singapore didn't intervene was because we have no death penalty (by hanging) here. I'd suppose if there were, I have no doubt that Singapore will attempts its best to save him (unless if the government really have no hearts).

Posted by: Carl on November 30, 2005 1:26 PM

Former Prime Minister Lee Kwan Yoo recently admitted he had made a mistake, that by making Singapore laws very restrictive he had eliminated creative thinking and thereby made Singapore incapable of going forward. The fact that Singapore still imposes the death penalty proves that it is a backward country with no humanity. As bad as Europe in the Middle Ages. Joseph Koh's article was specious and facile and an insult to people of reason

Posted by: Elizabeth P on November 30, 2005 1:24 PM

Van Nguyen should be executed because previous prisoners, who were carrying less dope than his 396 grams also suffered the same fate. It would be unfair on the behalf of those former drug runners if Van Nguyen would get off without death.
Sure, us Australians do not like the death penalty... But that does not mean it does not exist.
When you enter another country, you must abide by their rules.
Van Nguyen knew the penalties, prior to smuggling that crap and one life taken is better than 26000 potential lives from those drugs.

Posted by: David on November 30, 2005 1:23 PM

I have to the following statement as it is simply stupid:

When will people realise that other countries/cultures may actually have different values/priorities compared to Austraaliya??

I am German and in the darkest time of our history we had some terrible laws (and maybe even values?). So should the world have just leaned back and said "these are the laws of a sovereign nation". I am glad they did not.
Don't get me wrong. I am NOT AT ALL comparing the Holocaust with the execution! NOT AT ALL! But sometimes only an extreme example can show that the "this is a sovereign country" argument does not work......

What would you do if Singapore (or another country) would imtroduce the death penalty for shop lifting? Still say that is their right as a sovereign nation?

Posted by: Michael on November 30, 2005 1:22 PM

The Lord Jesus Christ while suffering on the cross for the sins of humanity assured a dying criminal on the cross that he will be with the Lord Jesus in Paradise because the criminal asked the Lord to remember him when He comes to rule in HIS Kingdom. May Van experience the Salvation of the Lord Jesus CHrist at this time as he calls on the Name of the Lord and inherit Eternal Life, which is the most important.

Even more damning they have recently allowed a well known drug lord into their country for premium medical care. Hey money talks right?

"You do the crime, you do the time?" What time? The two years before NVT's execution? No one is advocating a complete acquittal or release of NVT, like Michele Leslie. The question is whether NVT can be rehabiliated.

Singaporeans themselves are against the death penalty, especially in this instance, so how is it racist or anti-Asian to seek clemency. You would think the closest ally of Australia in South East Asia would share similar values, therefore how wrong is it for Australians to expect an outcome that is just by Western standards. Even the USA does not hang for drug trafficking, correct me if I am wrong.

I think the best thing that the Australian government can do now is to push for an reciprocal extradition treaty.

Posted by: Omega L on November 30, 2005 1:20 PM

Simon, I agree. Trafficking does not recieve a large enough penalty here. however, the druggies on the street had a choice. Frankly, no one(on a normal lifestyle!) should really need to beg as there is adequate provision from the government here for the unemployed or 'unemployed'.

Druggies have a choice. They and their families cannot blame the traffickers. Killing a traficker doesnt solve anything.

Posted by: n on November 30, 2005 1:20 PM

I do feel sorry for his family, but as Mr Koh's well written article shows I feel that they are doing the right thing. Singapore has a right to protect its citizens. There are many laws in the world that we in Australia do not agree with, it is easy to fix do not break them or travel to those countries imposing them. I applaud the Singapore government for holding strong to their principles. I believe they considered the matter seriously, but had no choice.
Once again my sympathies to the family.

Posted by: Brett on November 30, 2005 1:19 PM

I'd been living with neighbours who were drug dealers and I have a strong comment that they have NO MERCY on other people's live while they know very very well how their goods will kill people and shatter those people's families.

If you say no one has the right to terminate other's life, then no one has the right to sell that killing stuff to others either. But since the dealers don't care we need to apply severe punishment. Whether it can stop other dealers or not, at least, it can stop that dealer himself.

I'm asking myself if next time i bring a banana into Australia and a customs officer fine me $150 bucks, may I say i'm just 25, i'm young and can make stupid mistake, may you reduce the fine to the $80 only?

Before you want to change the law, you need not to break it first.

I strongly support Singaporean government.

Posted by: HN on November 30, 2005 1:17 PM

Singapore is such a barbaric country. They still cane people as a punishment. They have MANDATORY death sentences to drug traffickers, no matter what the circumstances. I definitely will not be vacationing in Singapore anytime soon.

Posted by: Ethan P on November 30, 2005 1:16 PM

He did the crime, he does the time.
If you dont want to die in another country, DONT smuggle drugs. especially one that give the death penalty for that particular offence.
Its not exactley rocket science.

Let him die, he should have thought about the consequences before trying to destroy another few thousand lives.

Posted by: Ivan on November 30, 2005 1:15 PM

That Australia is not treating Singapore with comtempt by not respecting our judiciary ??

Australia has no restriction picking up anybody in Singapore and flying out anywhere! Just who are you kidding? Opening the US-Australia route is just fair, Singapore does not Restrict Qantas, why does Qantus restrict SIA ?

You can own them if you have the money.

Just proves that your government is not protecting your citizens and allowing them to be drug mules. Get drugs off your street and you have no mule.

Nguyen wasn't even taking the drugs into Singapore- he was only in transit. The drugs were coming to Australia. Shouldn't then Australia be the one to convict and punish Nguyen?

Posted by: Lenox on November 30, 2005 1:15 PM

Don't put all the blame on the drug mules, if your child dies from Heroin... it's more likely a case of your lack of parenting skills.
Education is the key to solving this problem, not execution fools of this world.

Posted by: Feng on November 30, 2005 1:15 PM

"In many countries abortion is not acceptable; these countries do not call for sanctions or any other actions against Australia"

Not directly but the US declines funds to charity organisations that promote it as a choice.

" Who are we to judge Singapore?"

Who are we to judge any human rights abusers then?

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 1:15 PM

If we are going to economically boycott Singapore for one guilty man, why aren't we economically boycotting a country which since the invasion of Iraqi has killed ( by friendly fire, of course )hundreds of innocent people ? The recent arrest of two Australian bank robbers in America is a good metaphor for us Australians : We are really dumb.....

Posted by: T Bayley on November 30, 2005 1:14 PM

Lets get this in proportion. He was a 21 year old boy when he committed this act of desperation. He confessed and co-operated. It was his first offence. All these points should have been taken into consideration and would have been if death wasn't mandetory. Will his death stop drug dealing? No. All the while there are buyers, there will be sellers. Singaporeans won't however object, because they don't object to anything their government does as long as the lifts work in their housing towers.

Posted by: pamiela on November 30, 2005 1:14 PM

AJS:
many can use drugs recreationally - both soft and hard.
many can drink recreationally.
more people die and more lives are destroyed by alcohol than "drugs".

and this debate is not about glorifying a criminal.

it's not about slagging off Singapore.

i think it's about:
- double standards
- what makes a henious crime.
- the fact that we all makes mistakes.
- the DEATH PENALTY BEING ABHORRENT.

Posted by: Mel on November 30, 2005 1:14 PM

Whether or not people are for or against hanging, the simple fact is that Singaporeans are arrogant, undiplomatic, insensitive, cold robots who are spoonfed what to think by their government.

How dare they treat Australians as jokes, not to be taken seriously (e.g. when the PM didn't even give Howard a chance to plead for clemency, as demonstrated by the letter to Kim Nguyen).

I say we finish the contract we have with Singapore for letting them train their army forces on our soil.

Imagine if Singapore was ever targeted by terrorists or had a natural disaster. Who will them them? There isn't much 1st world countries near Singapore. I certainly won't be doling out any charity money to those cold hearted murderers.

Posted by: Chris on November 30, 2005 1:13 PM

To boycott a country and hurl abuse at its citizens because of what it stands for is simply childish. Imagine if the world refuses to come to Australia because of the outrage over the Cornelia Rau and Vivian Alveraz (Solon) cases...
Remember that no man is an island.

Besides if Van has accepted his lot and is at peace, then that is what counts the most. Perhaps he'd rather this than to spend the rest of his life (remember he's only 25) cooped up in a prison with no possibility of freedom - because that is not living life.

If you want someone to spend the rest of their life cooped up in a prison then you're inflicting a worse sentence upon them.

Posted by: JB on November 30, 2005 1:12 PM

THIS IS A GREAT STATEMENT SO I WANT TO REPEAT IT AS IT SAYS IT ALL:

This issue is not whether drug traffickers should be dealt with harshly. They should. The issue is whether a) they should be put to death, and b) whether this should be a mandatory policy.

Mandatory sentencing leaves no room for mitigating factors - factors like the fact that he's helped Australian police learn more about a drug syndicate, like the fact that he's a first-time offender who was trafficking drugs to save his brother, not to further drug addiction around the world.

The death penalty itself doesn't solve anything. It doesn't deter the truly desperate who become the mules, and it doesn't deter the kingpins who don't care if a mule dies.

Those who congratulate Singapore for taking a tough stance on drugs have to ask themselves if mandatory execution is the way to do it, and whether you would support placing the power of life and death in the hands of politicians.

Posted by: Michael on November 30, 2005 1:11 PM

I have heard some good things about Singapore in this forum. I am thinking about moving there. Better then the bunch of wierdos that live in Australia, who get wierder with every slap of the wrist they get from the australian justice system.

Posted by: James on November 30, 2005 1:11 PM

It seems there are a lot of people with hearts of stone. I hope the hanging of Van Tuong Nguyen, which seems inevitable now, makes you feel better and allows you to get on with your lives.

One day the death penalty will be banished in Singapore. It will happen. Van Tuong Nguyen will be remembered for that more than he will be remembered for his crime. Perhaps he is part of a grander plan.

Posted by: Michael G on November 30, 2005 1:11 PM

Singapore is a country run by 'dictators' in the modern world. People do not opppose the government and in turn the government repays them graciously with good economy/housing/benefits.

Search around with google and you will see individual comments/blogs from singaporeans who are telling the truth.

Posted by: Chris C on November 30, 2005 1:10 PM

Well in the last 15 years that IO have worked on a volunteer basis helping, advising and supporting addicts I have never seen so much concern for their welfare!

Only a few weeks ago the general response to addicts was to deride them, call them scum of the earth, filthy junkies etc.

Now that you all care so deeply for them I shall look forward to a heightened level of support at my drug and alcohol service!

Posted by: Sean on November 30, 2005 1:10 PM

No, SNG laws have been this way for a long time - why now, once the milk is spilt are people protesting. Were they lobbying for change prior?

Will the same people vent anger if Saddam is issued a death sentence. I expect Amnesty to provide the same amount of vocal protest as they have in this case, else they are hipocrites. Why dont all these bleeding heart defenders of idiot drug smugglers focus there help on truly needy?

enough said!

Posted by: over it! on November 30, 2005 1:10 PM

It is interesting how Australians get upset over the imminent hanging of an Australian. Of course, we are upset because....he's, he's....one of our own. Someone else ? Who gives a stuff !

Nguyen, the Howard Government would like to thank you for providing welcomed distraction from the WorkChoice legislation...too bad the execution date is not after the legislation is passed.

Posted by: T Bayley on November 30, 2005 1:08 PM

History has shown that if you give a country the power to take the lives of its citizens then governments can abuse that power in the worst possible way... Singapore kills many people, not only Nguyen. There are statistics that say China kills up to 6000 a year, the US countless, Germany during WW2 - they had the right to kill their own citizens for what they considered 'crimes'... this was genocide ...

Governments have historically and will manipulate the death penalty to suit their own situations. If we take away their right to kill then we can ensure that no person is put to death for the wrong reason. Birth and natural death is a natural human right. the right to take away life should not be given to any person... let alone a political government/court system.

I do not condone Nguyen's actions. Far from it... however he is a young man, never committed a crime previously, who got understandably emotionally involved in saving his twin brother's life, he has helped the Singapore Govt in their inquiries and admitted his guilt and willingly would accept life imprisonment...

Those who are fighting for his life in the media and public, would also fight for your lives as well... whatever the situation simply because you are a human being and the death penalty is barbaric.

Singapore's sovereignty is important, as is every country's... but so are basic human rights.

Posted by: Anon on November 30, 2005 1:07 PM

Some of the comments in this forum are down right racist. What makes these people believe that their values prevail over every one elses? Singapore might have what you deem to be "barbaric" laws, but nonetheless it is the law of the land. This idiot did it will full knowledge. You can't plead innocence, he's become some sort of hero. Everyone is trying to change the rules of the game after it has already started. You don't cry foul just because it doesn't work in your favour. Yes no one forces druggies to take drugs, yes they should be responsible for their actions. So why doesn't that statement apply to Nguyen? And to say that the USA is not as bad is just complete ignorance. I have no issue with the death penalty in Singapore because it is colour blind. But the death penalty in the US racially biased.
I've lived in all 3 countries. You live by the law of the land.

Posted by: JW on November 30, 2005 1:07 PM

The publicity this case has brought to Singapore has reminded us that it is not a democracy. Given this, those who say we should respect the laws of Singapore do not understand the true meaning of law. Information and opposotion to government policy is suppressed, so public opinion for change there has little real meaning. My opinion of Singapore has merely hardened as a result of this case. Optus, a company in the sensitive area of telecommunications, is owned by a dictatorship. I have never wanted them and still do not want them controlling my telephone and internet!

Posted by: Ross on November 30, 2005 1:07 PM

I am surprise how Australia is totally unaware of the real world out in Asia.

First for those who say Singapore is a place that's not exciting and no freedom and oppressed country, I frankly say, you must have say in your hotel room in Singapore in all your stay. Yes the are strong laws that provide protection to citizen and visitors, what wrong with that, a lady can even enjoy freedom for even walking around the streets at 3.00a.m in the morning, after partying in a pub. Can your country provide that type of freedom ?

Yep the teenager American that was caned bec of spray painting. That case do you know how much damage he cause, he did million of dollars in damages to cars, he spray not on walls but expensive cars , tear down road signs , tear down public telephone booths ...... he got a few canes !! Obvious not enough, he is into drugs back in US and arrest by US authorities. Maybe we should not have cane him, and we should reward him and send him Australia for a long hoilday to be your guest ! Let him destroy spray paint your cars, tear down road signs and telephone booths.

Yes for Burma, it is already a top drug producing country. Wake up, freedom to the farmers there mean able to produce more drugs to sell to australia ! The military government may not be good, but it is the only thing that have the power to keep the country together, and prevent it from civil wars and chaos. Yep you may not like it, but it is still better then boat loads of refugees coming to stay in refugees camps in australia. Yes scream that singapore does $132 million of trade with Burma, what about $27 million that Austuralia does. Why just because you does less, you are making noise ? If you does trade with Burma also, just because less you have no right to criticise others countries.

Stop looking at the world like a eye of a baby. You think stopping trade to Burma will stop the drugs, infact you are pushing the local to depend more drugs. Why other Asia countries, encourage trade with Burma is to open up its economy, and offer the people there alternative living, jobs and products rather then dependent on drugs.

For those who demand the stop of trade and sanction of Burma, I ask you now, what you offering to local Burma people to live on? You are just removing from them, their other alternative mean of honest livehood, so you are infact without thinking pushing them back to opium farming.

The real world is not prefect, and sometime, just because other people not doing things Aust way is wrong.

Posted by: Daniel on November 30, 2005 1:06 PM

To boycott a country and hurl abuse at its citizens because of what it stands for is simply childish. Imagine if the world refuses to come to Australia because of the outrage over the Cornelia Rau and Vivian Alveraz (Solon) cases...
Remember that no man is an island.

Besides if Van has accepted his lot and is at peace, then that is what counts the most. Perhaps he'd rather this than to spend the rest of his life (remember he's only 25) cooped up in a prison with no possibility of freedom - because that is not living life.

If you want someone to spend the rest of their life cooped up in a prison then you're inflicting a worse sentence upon them.

Posted by: SP on November 30, 2005 1:05 PM

Obadiah: "possibly the modern day equivalent of stealing a loaf of bread"? How can you say that? Heroin is much more serious than that! The guy took the risk he will now pay the price for running the drug through Singapore! NO one minute silence for him - he is no war hero and certainly has not put his life on the line for anyone in this country. if anything he was willing to destroy others lives!

Posted by: Dannielle on November 30, 2005 1:03 PM

Ohhh my heart bleed for all the poor Singaporeans ... please stop feeling so sorry for yourself and wake up to reality. A few points
1. What drive singapore and it's people is money (status)everything else is secondary
2. As a regular visitor let me tell you the tough drugs laws are not that effective .. you will in fact see the same amount of party drug taking at most nightclubs as you do in australia ...been there done that.
3. Singaporeans should stop trying to defend something so outdated as hanging the "small fish" in what is a global drug issue.. and a lot more complex than the childish views expressed here by many. Why not try something else .. try and look for compassion in yout hearts.
4. Countries like Denmark, Sweden and Norway has some of the most relaxed drug laws in the world are those countries awash with drugs and in decline I think not, those countries have been smart enough to see that education and information is the way forward and not primitive solutions like hanging.

Posted by: Andy on November 30, 2005 1:02 PM

I am ashamed to be Australian reading all the rubbish written by people about Singapore and the death of a criminal. Singapore is a sovereign nation that has applied what is a very well known law - especially for foreigners arriving here. If you guys don't like Singapore, I am happy indeed that you don't come here, don't buy Singaporean products and can help save us some $$$ from the defence budget. Yes, Singapore is boring, but then so is much of Australia. Singaporeans like it, and that is what matters.

Posted by: David on November 30, 2005 1:02 PM

Death sentence is a barbaric act.
Singapore has bent over backwards 10 years ago for Michael Frey's caning - they reduced the sentence after Bill Clinton weighted in.
Sadly Australia hasn't got a govn't with the might and backbone of America. Sad.
Boycott Singapore!

Posted by: Kai on November 30, 2005 1:02 PM

I dont believe in the death penalty. Many countries do. If we choose to defy these laws in these countries, we die. Lets all come to that realisation instead of crying foul. It was his choice.

Thanks for the heated debate Age editors. Nice choice of an odd spot for today. Maybe we can give these to Mrs Nguyen?

ODD SPOT
Singaporean scientists are working on electronic pyjamas for children that will allow their parents to hug them over the internet. The pyjamas will use electronic vibrations that can be activated by parents who are away on business trips.

Posted by: Joshcat on November 30, 2005 1:02 PM

Singapore's hypocrisy over drug trade is astounding considering its relationship with Burma and its trade of drug money.

Of course, Australia, the USA, UK and other members of the "Coalition of the Willing" are equally hypocritical while they have the "War on Drugs" at home, yet protect opium growers aroudn the world. In afghanistan for example, our soldiers protect opium growing warlords in return for support and information.

I guess the diffrence is that Australian doesn't hang the distributors.

Posted by: Sean on November 30, 2005 1:01 PM

"Singapore is not the only place that has the death penalty."

Apart from the 'fact' he was still alive in heaven watching the proceedings take place.

"Or would I be simply imposing my values and ideas onto them?"

Christians have been doing that for a long time, why stop now?

" But I do accept that God has his ways."

Yes and killing innocent people is one of them, no wonder he isn't getting involved.

"Had NVT not been caught is it not possible he could have turned to crime permanently and died a sinner."

Since when does commiting a secular crime make one a sinner, unless it coincides with biblical laws? Is the otherwise pious christian jay walker a sinner?

"It had to treat Mr Nguyen consistently with similar past cases, and apply the law equally to Singaporeans and foreigners."

What about the german gal? who got scott free from german pressure? Julia Suzanne Bohl

Mr Anandan's German client, Ms Bohl, 23, was charged in March 2002 with drug trafficking after police seized 687g of marijuana and other drugs from her Singapore apartment.

Within months, several charges were dropped and she escaped the gallows after the "pure" amount of drugs was found to be 281g.

Posted by: Matt on November 30, 2005 1:00 PM

Aussie should learn that they are not the sherrif of the region and should respect other country's Law. Vice versa, any foreigners who broke the law in Aus. will be punished according to our law here as well.

Posted by: Guenter on November 30, 2005 12:59 PM

If laws violate the fundamental human right to life, then it is our duty as citizens of the world to speak out against such antiquated and barbaric laws.

It has nothing to do with racism.

It is merely about doing the right thing.

Posted by: J on November 30, 2005 12:59 PM

If another poster writes about 'making a saint out of a drug criminal', I think I might burst.

How stupid is the allegation?

Looking at the board, there is absolutely no indication that any of us is trying to make a saint out of Nguyen. None. Not one person here has denied that he is plainly guilty of his crime.

What we vehemently disagree with, is state-sponsored death penalty - particularly in light of the fact that capital punishment is disproportionate to the crime committed in Nguyen's case.

We're not asking for the beatification of Nguyen. We're not asking for him to be released without appropriate punishment (say a 20-year jail term). We're simply asking for all to preserve the sanctity of life.

We cannot take away life. It is sacred. To disturb this fundamental balance is how wars are caused, time and time again.

Why is there so much hatred in your hearts? Will anger and hatred help bring your loved ones back from the devastation of drug abuse? Will anger and hatred help to stop the drug trafficking? Hardly.

Loving kindness, people - even for those who commit heinous crimes. Only loving them will we help them redeem themselves and create a better world for the future generations.

Come Friday, my minute of silence will be used to wish Nguyen a peaceful passing. Even convincted criminals deserve our compassion.

Capital punishment can never be right. I hope Singapore will come to see this in my time.

Posted by: J on November 30, 2005 12:56 PM

"Singapore is not the only place that has the death penalty."

Ah yes, the US, that haven from violence for all.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 12:54 PM

What is all this nonsense about? He knew what he was doing and the risks involved. Why are we being so arragant to expect Singapore to be lenient in granting him clemancy! Are we going to go down the same path when the Bali 9 are convicted, afterall they are just as guilty. And all this nonsence about 10 minutes silence when we can't even respect our war hero's with a minutes silence on the 11/11? Come on Australia get real, he's been convicted , he's guilty and that's the end. Surely we can't expect any other nation to change Their Laws as they wouldn't expect Australia to change ours!

Posted by: MICHELLE on November 30, 2005 12:54 PM

I notice some of the comments mentioned "thousands of families are shattered and ruined because of drugs", so as to justify the execution of the drug-trafficar. But may I ask a question: are these "ruined-by-drugs" people forced to take doses of drugs? I believe many of them, by their free wills, CHOOSE to take it. They know how much the drug will cost, financially and physically, and the impact on their families and friends.
And they still, for whatever reason, CHOOSE to have drugs. Yes, I agree Ngyuen has committed a crime, but I don't see the Direct link between drug-trafficar and drug victims.

Posted by: Janet on November 30, 2005 12:53 PM

For the people that oppose the death penalty, we enjoy the freedoms of this country because our forefathers (bless them) bravely killed alot of germans and japs. No one would dare suggest that was wrong.

Posted by: Peter on November 30, 2005 12:53 PM

I call for all Aussies to boycott Singapore companies.

Posted by: Kim on November 30, 2005 12:52 PM

The issue is not the bloke who got caught. He is venal and stupid. The issue is the MANDATORY death sentence, which contravenes the rule of law. This is reflective of an authoritarian and totalitarian government, run by the Lee dynasty.

As is well noted the Singapore 'Govt' is only too happy to deal with Burma, it also uses the power of the state to intimidate and impoversh any opposition to their rule.

How many of our politicians are attempting to emulate this scenario by the constant use of fear and the promise that more and more laws of an increasingly draconian nature and standing outside the rule of law will make you 'safer'.

This blokes death will make absolutely no difference to the drug trade.

The concept of state sanctioned murder is hideous, but still we have the stupid cheer squad happily and mindlessly making their tough statements as if the positive anticipation of a death is a good thing.

The voices raised against the increasing tendency of politicians ( I am wondering if this is what they should still be called) to exercise absolutism in an appeal to the truly stupid and weak amongst us is evidence that this country still has some backbone.

Posted by: Adrian on November 30, 2005 12:52 PM

Well Kim,

Then with regards to Singapore's government control of the media leaves to me a little saying.

People in glass houses......

Can you please use the full name. (Charles - it is Age policy not to use people's full name's in the Your Say - Ed)

Posted by: Charles W on November 30, 2005 12:51 PM

" it is to give a sense of revenge"

So you admit that justice and mercy are no longer needed. Let's kill all criminals from jay walkers to murderers.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 12:51 PM

I really am amazed at how simplistic the views of many Singaporeans are. So many issues are seen in such black and white terms because of the lack of ability of the public to speak out on many issues such a politics in general, religion, race etc. Also, the education system in Singapore seems to reinforce such simplistic views and leaves little scope for alternative ideologies to develop. Mr Koh was so predictable in his response. He believes that the execution is correct because that is the law. He can not take it a step further and explain why a mandatory death penalty is in place leaving no rooms for judges to determine each situation (Singapore could not possibly allow for freedom of thought on that) on its merits nor can he justify the death penalty itself (although I am sure it is cheaper for Singapore in the long term than having to keep the prisoners alive - must keep that current account surplus). Mr Koh does mention the fact that Nguyen was not intending to enter Singapore, but he said he needed to be stopped or else Singapore would become a hub for drug running, which they still could have avoided by simply alerting the Australian authorities where the drugs were intended to be smuggled.

Posted by: Damien on November 30, 2005 12:48 PM

The article by Joseph Koh is just soooo predictable, but then again, what did we expect? It's his job to defend his government.

A word of advice Joseph, we're not a bunch of kids, and we're not living in Singapore. Do you actually expect us to buy into your nonsense? Nice try.

Posted by: Nam N on November 30, 2005 12:48 PM

"I don't smoke because I know it's bad for my health."

Many people still do even when they know because they are addicted. They even whinge when they can't smoke in certain areas despite knowing it'll kill 'em.

"I enjoy a drink but I know when to stop."

Some people can't stop.

"As for the car analogy, puhhlease,"

Ah the voice of ignorance speaks. Ford in the US found it cheaper to let people die in their badly designed Pontiac than redesign it, until the word got out. Car companies (also the idiot drivers)in the US also resisted seat belts for ages, despite the fact that they save lives. There's also the injury cost, far greater than the death toll.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 12:47 PM

All this nonsense about Singapore being a 'soverign' country and that it has a right to execute Nguyen. If we all took that attitude then the 'soverign' Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler could have continued along its merry way by 'exterminating' people with their 'soverign' laws. Soverignty is not a concept exclusively reserved for individual nations, soverignty only exists in an international context. Singapore should be held to account for its breach of human rights. Maybe if this execution of Nguyen hurts them financially, maybe they'll take notice. Boycott all business Singaporean!

Posted by: Doug B on November 30, 2005 12:46 PM

Nguyen must not be hanged! Shame on you Singapore for hanging him!
Boycott Singapore!

Posted by: John D on November 30, 2005 12:43 PM

I was once a drug addict, it very nearly destroyed me and my family. It took me at least 5-6 years to get my life back in order. Unfortunatly, there are many hundreds and thousands of people out there who have not been as fortunate as i have, and are now wasting away due to what these drugs do to them.
If these people had not been hooked on drugs, would their lives have been any different? Who knows, all i can say is that now that they are hooked on them, their lives have been shot. What price do they have to pay? Certainly not death, but more than likely they will.
Why is it that so many people feel sorry for this idiot. He knew what he was doing, he knew the consequeces, even if these sympathises ignorantley dismiss the consequences.
Tell me something, how many times have you seen a drug addict on the streets begging for money, or commiting a robbery or losing the plot and beating the c--p out of an innocent person for no apparent reason. I've seen plenty. They get desperate for money, desperate to feel good again, the feeling they only get when they are high as a kite. This is what drugs do to you. Van might not have been the one to hand them the drugs, but he definitley played a big part in it.
Besides, what do you think would of happened if he had succeded, his brother probably would have gone back to the casino to blow it all again.

Posted by: john d on November 30, 2005 12:43 PM

It is me again. Reading some of the statements of people (Australians) living in Singapore and saying how wonderful and safe and clean everything is makes me quite angry. So does that mean it is ok to go ahead and HANG someone?
Always remember: there is a young man here in Changi prison who knows that they will wake him early Friday (if he can sleep anyway) put a hood over his head, a rope around his neck and strangle him to death!
YES, Singapore is clean (and I have nothing against it)
YES, Singapore is safe, but so are other places too.Without draconic laws! And guys - every week there is an article here in the newspaper that a baby or someone has been thrown from the balcony of a high rise, or someone has been stabbed. This year, 2 people have been found chopped into pieces......the head was found at Orchard Rd...the body somewhere else....etc. etc.
And of course it is safe because there are cameras everywhere....yesterday it was announced that 600 additional cameras will be put up to prevent vandalism and theft....
What does it tell us:
1. There must be vandalism and theft
2. a "Big Brother" world is safe.

And also remember. The Europeans or Australians living here are not living the real Singapore life. They live on good packages and in nice houses or apartments with pool etc. But the real SIngapore is not the glittering Orchard Road and the luxurious hotels tourists see in the center....
The reals Singapore life is in the HDB's, satelite cities away from the center with hundreds of concrete slab highrises (like commission houses in Melbourne), some without elevators (11 storeys!) and often without air conditioning.

I realized I am raving on here. What I want to say.....don't give too much about statements from Expats here in Singapore saying how wonderful everything is. A fact is that they very often live a better lifestyle than they would do in their home countries and therefore for them the world is pink!

Posted by: Michael on November 30, 2005 12:42 PM

This issue is not whether drug traffickers should be dealt with harshly. They should. The issue is whether a) they should be put to death, and b) whether this should be a mandatory policy.

No the issue is about capital punishment and it is also about drug runners. It is about both.

Mandatory sentencing leaves no room for mitigating factors - factors like the fact that he's helped Australian police learn more about a drug syndicate, like the fact that he's a first-time offender who was trafficking drugs to save his brother, not to further drug addiction around the world.

That may or not be a fact or it may just be the excuse he gave. Sob stories of criminals cannot ever be taken into account as all of them can surely think of one. The only mitigating circumstance that should ever be taken into account for any crime is that it was done for self defence or to prevent harm to the body. Not property, not reputation but actual physical harm to the body. The fact they leave no room for mitigating circumstances is good as they also leave no room for lies that gulible people easily believe.

The death penalty itself doesn't solve anything. It doesn't deter the truly desperate who become the mules, and it doesn't deter the kingpins who don't care if a mule dies.

Actually in Singapore it has proven to do just that maybe because they are consistent and advertise very well their death penalty.

Those who congratulate Singapore for taking a tough stance on drugs have to ask themselves if mandatory execution is the way to do it, and whether you would support placing the power of life and death in the hands of politicians.

I do not believe in the death penalty. However if it is to be enforced I would rather they be consistant and not wishy washy.

Posted by: maggie on November 30, 2005 12:41 PM

Thousand of innocent Australians are executed each year. We never cancel any event for them (sport etc.) and we do not have a minute's silence for them. The people that decide to execute these innocent Ozzies, well we support their businesses and they might even be our sport hero or a celebrity that we admire. When asked about the decision to execute an innocent Ozzie we are told that it their individual right to have an abortion, it is their or their partners body and they have the final say.

Singapore is an individual sovereign state, it is their ?body? and they have the final say in what happens in or to their ?body?. Mr. Nguyen is also not innocent or a victim.

In many countries abortion is not acceptable; these countries do not call for sanctions or any other actions against Australia and if they should, well in true Ozzie spirit we will tell them to go to hell. Who are we to judge Singapore?

I do feel for Mr. Nguyen's family, especially his mother. But you get used to live with it; the hurt and lost. You make a decision to continue life and keep the good memories. I know. I lost a brother (22) and friends to murder, landmines, gunfire and bombs.

Posted by: Eelco on November 30, 2005 12:39 PM

When will people realise that other countries/cultures may actually have different values/priorities compared to Austraaliya??

Posted by: Global Challenge on November 30, 2005 12:39 PM

For all those people asking things like "Why have we made a martyr out of this drug runner?"

It's not about turning him into a martyr. It's about:
- Compassion for another human being who made a horrendous mistake, but does not deserve to die for it.
- Standing up and saying the death penalty is wrong, no matter what country it occurs in and no matter what nationality the person to be executed is.

I'm amazed that so many people are being so callous. The one positive to come out of this situation is that it's raised the issue of the death penalty (and mandatory sentencing) and hopefully now more people and the government will take a more active opposition to the barbaric and primitive practice.

Posted by: Simone on November 30, 2005 12:36 PM

Just briefly in response to an earlier post - it was 396g of heroin, not 3.5 kilos. Small, but important point.
The hypocrisy that gets me is not that Australia wanted the bali bombers executed and not this guy etc, but that everybody is so willing to get up on their high horse and condemn this guy so easily! Can you seriously say that you have never made a mistake in your life? Yes, it's a hell of a mistake he made, but the punishment is completely disproportionate to the crime. He was young and stupid and made the wrong decision. That is it. And as for lauding Capital Punishment - it is disgusting! So we know that Van is guilty, yes, but I fear the person who is innocent in that situation. The person who took their eye of their hand luggage for a second and is caught unwittingly carrying drugs. Do they deserve to die too? It is a mantory sentence after all.

How about everyone checks their own character and conscience before setting into Van Nguyen! I think he's heard it all by now.

Posted by: lily on November 30, 2005 12:36 PM

We are all suckers of the media. Famcy having a debate about this at all. He was guilty and he knew what he was doing. I dont think he should hang for it but they are the rules.

Posted by: Matthew on November 30, 2005 12:35 PM

"There were almost 8000 Opiate overdose deaths since 1988!! Thats more than 1 death a day"

Did you bother to read the stats on tobacco and alcohol. They kill far more people yet are legal. Hypocrisy is the order of the day. Road accidents kill about the same yet cars are legal.

Posted by: Andrew

I don't smoke because I know it's bad for my health. I enjoy a drink but I know when to stop. As for the car analogy, puhhlease, did you burst a blood vessel whilst venting your spleen?

Posted by: AJS on November 30, 2005 12:33 PM

Pardon my ignorance and excuse me for coming in left-of-field, but can anyone tell me how much money Mr Nguyen stood to make? What is the break-up of cash? How much is the raw product, how much does the drug-lord make, what is the whole deal worth financially.
My feelings toward Singapore won't change. While I disagree with capital punishment, I think there probably could be a more humane method of execution. After all, we are civilised aren't we?

Posted by: Monty on November 30, 2005 12:28 PM

Well, reckon I'm being wrong but I really have a feeling that some Australians are trying to make a saint out of a drug criminal.

Posted by: lee on November 30, 2005 12:23 PM

I had no view on Singapore before this except I heard it has clean streets. I have never been there and probably won't in the future anyway. So my view has not changed from before. This is none of our business in terms of what is happening to NVT. This is nothing new in Singapore, the death sentence was not introduced yesterday. You do the crime, you pay. With all the fuss about the drug problem in Australia, I cannot believe our leaders etc are making a martyr out of this guy. Why is every person involved in crime overseas like Corby and Leslie getting such airtime now. Why is the government expected to bail out every idiot that gets themselves into trouble with drugs. Part of travelling is the risk of travelling - if you don't respect the laws of a country don't do what is against the law there. As for NVT, I don't want to hear about how he has accepted his sentence. I don't want to hear about what he has for lunch of what his favourite band is. I know he is a human but I also that think that once he got away with this it would be hard not to try it again.
NVT did not make a 'mistake' - he made a thought out and wrong 'decision'. It is not a surprise that drug trafficking or couriering is a no-no in Asia.
Also all these people that call the death sentence barbaric and a violation of human rights, I wonder how many of them would rather spend 20 years in some feral prison with cockroaches for friends than be executed. Neither is a good choice but that is what he essentially made - a choice to make a calculated risk that went wrong.
He and his brother should have thought about what heartache he would cause his poor mother by going down this path. She is the one we should feel for here.

Posted by: P on November 30, 2005 12:23 PM

As a Singaporean living in Australia, let me first say that I enjoy living in this country for many reasons. For instance, I like the fact that people can talk and debate on anything and everything until the cows come home; I love the openess and friendliness that has been extended to my family.

Unfortunately, what I find difficult to figure is people telling Singapore how to run herself and what her laws should be without much, if any, understanding of why the country is the way it is.

One thread that keeps popping up is how people are not allowed freedom of speech or choice in Singapore. Please know that while these are important issues, the majority of Singaporeans have (to them) bigger things to worry about, like how to provide for themselves and their families. Yes, it looks to be a well-developed and well-off society but living standards never stop increasing, and most ordinary folk have to work like hell to keep their heads above water. Also, while I would like the local media to be more daring in its reporting, the internet is there for anyone to dig out whatever they want to read. I've gone looking for reputedly politically-incorrect websites - both international and Singaporean (yes, they do exist) - and have never had problems finding what I wanted.

With regard to the tough drug laws, the vast majority prefer to have them as they do a pretty good job of not just keeping the stuff (especially hard core drugs) off the streets and also preventing the country from becoming a major drug-running centre (unfortunately, its central location in South East Asia doesn't just attract legal trade and business). Yes, drugs do exist in Singapore - I don't think you can ever keep it out totally - but most realise that the situation could be a lot, lot worse when they look at some close neighbouring countries, and so appreciate the laws for what they do achieve.

For those who are protesting against the death penalty, that is your right and you have every right to do so. But I only ask that you be fair and take your protests and boycotts to all the other countries (civilised or otherwise) who also have the death penalty. The thing is, I don't know how that will work as almost everything nowadays is manufactured in China, and the US is a huge trading partner of Australia. If you are angry because a foreign government is exercising its laws on an Australian citizen who broke one of its most prominent laws on its soil, then do you suggest that governments have one law for citizens and one for non-citizens? That's another potential can of worms right there.

Something to chew on: In 2003, two Singaporean students were murdered in Sydney. The accused for the crime is their ex-roomate, also a Singaporean. And the venue of the trial? Sydney. All three were Singaporeans, but because the murders were committed in Australia, the Singapore government respected local laws and made no request for the suspect's extradition to stand trial in Singapore. The families of the deceased probably would have preferred to have the proceedings in Singapore, but respect for the law - irrespective of locale - was upheld.

I post this not in attempt to change ideas or justify things; I only want to inject some context into this debate. All sides should be heard.

By the way, to Jambo who wrote "Could you see the UK letting this autocratic little regime execute one of its citizens?" It did happen, but not in Singapore. Two British citizens were executed by the Malaysian government some years ago when they were found guilty of drug-trafficking. There was the expected hue and cry over it, but the UK knew it wasn't a matter of "letting" another government pass judgement on two of its own; they broke Malaysian laws and therefore had to face the consequences.

Posted by: Suzanne on November 30, 2005 12:22 PM

As much as I feel for the boys mother it makes me angry to see the twin brother with her, why isnt he in jail or offer to change places with his brother as he says he was doing it to help his twin, I wonder how he is feeling as he has been very quiet.

Posted by: Jean on November 30, 2005 12:20 PM

People keep bringing up the spurious argument that capital punishment is not a deterrent. This is not what it is for. It is to get rid of scum from ever doing it again, it is to give a sense of revenge to the victim/state, and to save money wasted on keeping these parasites alive. If it acts as a deterrent it is simply a bonus.

Life is too short to have it ruined by criminals. Kill them all.

Posted by: saskia on November 30, 2005 12:20 PM

Save NVT from death? And?

Life sentence? Has anyone in Aust. who spent time in Changi Prison like to share their experience?

As for the Hulls idea of prisoner exchange I can assure you that any Singapore with experience of life in Changi Prison will readily ask for his time in an Aust jail to be increased instead of bing transferred to Changi.

Does everyone hoping there would be a different outcome for NVT understand the consequences?

Posted by: peter n on November 30, 2005 12:20 PM

Kim,

As so often before - Well said!

Posted by: John S on November 30, 2005 12:19 PM

I grew up in Australia during the 1960?s and 70?s. It was during those times that I recall you could leave the house and not bother too much about locking the door. Travelling around the city on the trains at any time of day or night was considered safe to do so. And never once was I confronted with an offer of drugs. Contrast those times with today. From reading the nation?s newpapers, one could be forgiven for thinking that we Australians admire those caught with trafficking drugs. Just take a look at all the media attention on those caught with drugs in Bali recently. I just wonder how many Australians would have suffered as as result of those 26,000 hits of heroin Nguyen would have brought into the country. Not just those taking the drugs but their families as well. Has anyone really spared a thought for them? Sure he was bringing in those drugs to help a family member but is this really a case of the? ends justifies the means?? And what?s this about a minute?s silence?.you?ve got to be kidding me.

Singapore is not the only place that has the death penalty. Many countries do. I recall well, the mid eighties when 2 other Australians, Barlow and Chambers were hanged in Malaysia for drug trafficking. Where was the outpouring of sympathy for them and outrage at the Malaysian government for executing these two men? Have we all of a sudden gone soft on drugs and accepted them as a normal way of life?

Anyway, these days due to work I don?t live in Australia. I leave my home and don?t have to bother too much about locking my door. I can walk around the city or catch the train at any time of day or night and know that I am safe in doing so. Don?t really have to worry about being a victim of crime at all as there is so little of it. These days I?m happy to be living in Singapore.

Posted by: John S on November 30, 2005 12:17 PM

To Charles W:
So WHAT if our media is biased? Many of us not so stupid - we can look elsewhere. If the Singaporeans tar all of us with the same brush, then they are as silly and racist as WE are meant to be.

LET the Singaporeans hear our dissenting voices - it might do them some good, since they can't hear their own.

Posted by: kim on November 30, 2005 12:14 PM

The passion surrounding this debate is not about Van Nguyen's guilt, the seriousness of the crime he committed or the impact his actions would have had had he succeeded and the heroin he was importing had hit the streets. It's about the death penalty and it's eye for an eye logic. There seems little doubt that Van Nguyen is guilty, and the removal of his freedom for a lifetime would, in many ways, be a greater punishment. Conversely, the the death penalty brings his suffering to an end quickly while condemning his family and friends, who are innocent of any wrong doing, will live with an irreparable pain. The death penalty is outdated, barbaric and simplistic, and ultimately it punishes the wrong people.

Posted by: Sally P on November 30, 2005 12:14 PM

The Singapore government needs to get their priorities right.

This is from the Interpol website regarding some of Singapore's laws.

The Articles concerning Pornography are extracted from the Children and Young Person Act.

Concerning 'Sexual exploitation of a child or young person', Section 6 states

'Any person who, in public or private, commits or abets the commission of or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any person of any obscene or indecent act with any child or young person, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $ 5,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two (2) years or to both and, in the case of a second or subsequent conviction, to a fine not exceeding 10,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding four (4) years or to both.'

and this

'Traffic in woman and girls', described in Section 141

'Any person who buys, sells, procures, traffics in, or brings into or takes out of Singapore for the purpose of such traffic, and whether or not for the purpose of present or subsequent prostitution, any woman or girl, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five (5) years and shall also be liable to a fine not exceeding $ 10,000.'

So to traffic drugs you get death and for trafficking women its just a slap on the wrist.

Posted by: Nuts on November 30, 2005 12:13 PM

Are we going to have 9 minutes of silence if the Bali 9 gets executed?

John Howard should not go to the cricket. Not becuase of Nguyen but because it is a waste of time and he should have more important things on his agenda like the IR reforms and terrorism laws.

NVT - rest in peace

Posted by: Say no to Capital punishment on November 30, 2005 12:11 PM

My uncle is a recovering alcoholic (and now a chain smoker). George Best just drank himself to death. But that does not mean I blame the liquor and cigarette companies for it? So why the hysteria over drugs? Van is not responsible for the addiction - whether it be of the Kate Moss variety or your local junkie. He is just a cog in the wheel of people who prosper by these addictions - and that includes liquor and tobacco companies. So I simply can't understand the blood lust on this forum by hearts bleeding for 26,000 heroin addicts (has anyone checked this figure?).

Any country that - as someone posted - does things with such mechanical regularity is suspect. Its simply not possible that all of Singapore is morally upright - one wonders what stories would stumble out of closets if they did have a free press. I have always disliked Singapore as a place, better humane chaos any day than economic success stories brought about by authoritarianism. That opinion is reinforced by the Van case. And yes, we should make our voice heard a bit louder and less apologetically with regard to the death penalty. Tomorrow it may well be the Bali nine and the day after it may happen in the US. Will we continue being silent and saying "its the law"? If such an attitude had prevailed, South Africa would still be practising apartheid.

Posted by: Shama on November 30, 2005 12:10 PM

The sheer inflexibility of the Singapore Govt boggles the mind. You would think that we are dealing with unfeeling robots rather than humans. Imagine preventing a distraught mother from hugging her death-row son one last time just because rules are rules. Shame on them.

No one doubts that trafficking heroine is a serious crime. But imposing a mandatory death sentence without bothering with the specifics of each case is like using a broom to paint a picture. In Nguyen's case, there are more than enough grounds for commuting the death sentence.

He is a first time offender and, by the way, he has never caused any drug related deaths in his life. Those who say that the heroine he tried to traffick could have cause many deaths are dealing with hypotheticals. If a terrorist were caught before he succeeded in exploding a bomb, he would be tried for conspiracy to bomb, not for causing the deaths of 1000 persons or how many you think he could have killed if the bomb had gone off. So Nguyen is being executed for potentially killing drug addicts, not for having actually killed them. This is not justice. Why do so many people think that serving a long prison sentence is not sufficient punishment for Nguyen's crime? Just how blood-thirsty do you need to be?

And who says that we have no right to protest the barbarity of Singaporean laws? We have a right because we share a common humanity. If the Holocaust were to happen again, are these people saying that we will have no right to protest because it is happening in another sovereign state with its own peculiar laws?

Of course we should make a lot of fuss if an Australian is to be executed even if we are silent when other nationals suffer the same fate. It's right and natural to look after your own. For God's sake, who else will do that? The Singaporeans? Ha!

Posted by: KCG on November 30, 2005 12:10 PM

John S: I understand it's an emotional issue and hard not to get emotional about it one way or the other.

Asking me to post on a govt website suggests you can only see one part of what I have said and not the whole.

Let me put things in perspective. I have made 3 efforts on my part to see if I could do anything to help.

I sent a message to NVT's defence team with some suggestions.

I sent a message to Hulls with suggestions on who he should see in Singapore because I suspected he did not have a game plan.

I asked a friend in govt. in Singapore if there was a message that should be passed to NVT's team.

Would I like to see him hang? NO. Because of my Catholic upbringing.

Now if I speak an Aboriginal language and live amogst them for 6 years does that qualify me to tell them that they should live their lives the way white people in Australia think they should live?

Or would I be simply imposing my values and ideas onto them?

What qualifies you to think that your views are correct when you have apparently missed my point that it is for Singaporeans alone (not Australians) who understand what will or will not work to change the system in Singapore?

Do you not realise that it is views like yours and the kind of approach you adopt that retards and prevents change in Singapore?

To Andrew R:

"Thou shalt not kill, judge not.., he who is without sin.., turn the other cheek etc."

Yes I accept all that. But even Christ had to die before we could be saved.

I can't save NVT and neither can you. But I do accept that God has his ways.

All I am asking everyone is - how do we know NVT's fate was not what God intended so his soul could be saved, never mind the lives of the drug addicts who might otherwise have died had he gotten through.

Had NVT not been caught is it not possible he could have turned to crime permanently and died a sinner.

NVT understands he will be with God soon.

We should all pray for NVT's redemption. Attacking Pilate and the Romans will change nothing.

Posted by: Peter N on November 30, 2005 12:10 PM

I lived in Singapore for quite some time, I fell I know the country well. I am an Anglo-Australian and am having a lot of personal angst about this hanging. It seems to be in my mind all day, I even wake up thinking about it. Here are some of my random thoughts:

1. Most Singaporeans do support the death penalty - but then most Singaporeans do what they're told.
2. If you are in opposition in government in Singapore you will be lambasted and put down by the government, and probably bankrupted as well. This has happened so many times. Thus don't believe anything the Singaporean government or their mouthpieces say about opposition members (or anything else really). Thus, the charges about Myanmar that the opposition member made are quite likely true.
3. I believe in every nations' sovereign right to implement their own laws, however I definitely don't believe in the death penalty.
4. I see much hypocrisy here in Australia - imagine Phil Ruddock saying Singaporeans are 'barbarians' (as in the press yesterday). But it's not barbarian to lock up children in detention centres? Please,? Phils' sedition laws are very Singaporean!
5. Further to the hypocrisy - as previously stated by others here, USA hangs lots of people but we don't call them barbarians (well actually I would, but the government doesn't). Therefore isn't this all a bit 'anti-Asian' underneath.

All the above being said, I don't support the death penalty personally, and feel so saddened for Mrs Nguyen in particular. The alternatives for Van Nguyen, however, aren't too bright. I don't know whether I would prefer life in Changi with lashings or a quick end.

Posted by: Lin on November 30, 2005 12:09 PM

How we deal with Singapore is a matter of personal choice; although I have been there many times, it is sterile, and we should vote on this issue with our feet and credit cards according to our own personal views.

Posted by: Peter on November 30, 2005 12:05 PM

I can understand why Singapore would support the death penalty.After all,the alternative punishment of life imprisonment wouldn't be all that much different to actually living there.

Posted by: Dave on November 30, 2005 12:04 PM

Whatever Van has done (or anyone else) there is only one question, and that is if it is right or wrong to kill someone. Personally, I think it is wrong.

Posted by: Ruth on November 30, 2005 12:02 PM

Should we pay more attention to those drug addicts ? To some degree, they are closer to the catergory 'victim'. Go and help them. Don't talking the about bullshit of saving a drug trafficer life.

Posted by: F.Zhao on November 30, 2005 12:02 PM

Perplexed,

I'm sure you are, especially if you think one minutes silence is reserved for soldiers. Don't forget sportsmen, politicians, social workers - the list goes on.

Your post would make sense if you didn't support the Singaporean G'ment who support heroin dealers!

Wake up!!

Posted by: John S on November 30, 2005 12:00 PM

It is sickening that the Western liberal Leftists are engaging in moralistic preaching about the negatives of death penalty to a Sovereign independent nation.
Dont those fools realise such bombastic moralistic lecturing will only infuriate a country like Singapore and harden its attitudes? Asians dont like to be lectured on morals by Westerner, it is racist,colonist and patronising. I am sure even Singapore does not allow abortion of 32 week unborn child and other late term abortions like Australia does. So much so for values eh? Australia needs to examine its values and morals before lecturing to other nation.

It is obvious that Nguyen's crime does not deserve the death penalty, the Govt should argue on the merit of this particular individual case where the punishment does not fit the crime and where other factors need to be taken into eg the fact that Nguyen did not intend to smuggle the drugs in to Singapore.
But attacking Singapore in general for the death penalty is a failed tactic, no country would accept blatant inteference from a another nation and accept its colonial,patronising attitude. Like it or not most countries have found nothing wrong against the death penalty and are not going to abolish it just because Australia doesn't follow it. Referring to international laws is meaningless, a sovereign nation will not respect it.

Posted by: Greg H on November 30, 2005 11:57 AM

From George:
"Singapore and the rest of Asia treat Australia with contempt."

That you have to ask yourself why? Do we Aussies treat them any better? The anti-Singapore/SE Asia comments on this forum alone shows why they treat us with contempt.

Posted by: LT on November 30, 2005 11:57 AM

Lets discuss/think in a very layperson way about this execution.

"Everyone has the second chance..." this is always acceptable and being taught in school, always happen in children's life...

This is really a barbaric way to end a human's life just like that. If we think in a positive way, We should feel thankful to Singapore government where they do not

'prolong' his suffer with 'life sentence'. However, we as humans have our right to make decision, even the way we want to die. Frankly speaking, to safe his 'hang'

execution does not mean good for him; this is to reduce our anger, our depress and etc. He will still be faced with another kind of sentence, which is probably will be

'life sentence' as mentioned earlier.

I feel that by 'hanging', is to 'help' him to get rid of all suffers in a shortcut way; if think in a constructive way, means he does not owe anyone else in his life. He

will rebirth to be a better man, better live. However, this is a babaric way of sentencing a human by 'hanging'. Humans with loves and cares will not be able to accept

this sentence especially most of the Australians, who are lovely and passionate to live for their better life.

For other people in another country, 'maybe' they think that he deserves to receive this sentence by looking at what he has done previously. They 'feel' that hanging is

the best way to show other people that they have successfully controlled drug trafficking in their country and also help in other countries. How about 'drug lords'? Where

are they and what are they doing now? Helping drug addicter to soothe their suffers? Or helping many countries in their economical progression by building five stars

If 'the country' feels that he deserves to receive hang execution as a sentence by considering how many people will suffer if he reaches Singapore, Australia or any other

countries, then 'life prison' may be the better choice to sentence him. In Chinese, we say 'ying-guo', meaning what you have previously done in your life will get the

outcome that will going to be happened in your own life. If you did good, you will get good result and on the contrary way. For him, doesn't him need serious punishment in

a way that he himself needs to suffer by taking 'life sentence', in which Singapore will definitely impose other reasonable punishments that they think suitable? This is

called 'To suffer as how drug addicts suffer', or 'To suffer as how other people are going to suffer because of how many grams of drugs that you carried.' 'Hanging'

execution is a peace for him, but a suffer for his family members, friends and supporters whoever knows his name, his story...

Therefore, he has his own right to choose to receive serious life sentence punishment or 'hang'. Actually, don't we think that people with life punishment will suffer more

than to receive 'hang'? 'Hanging' is a babaric decision. So 'life sentence' may be the choice for a 'second chance' person...

Posted by: Second Chance on November 30, 2005 11:57 AM

Joanna - move to China. They force women to have abortions, AND they have the death penalty.

Posted by: kim on November 30, 2005 11:56 AM

Sinagapore's reputation is further enhanced as a beacon of law and order and caring society.

Australia with its weak, permissive, gutless law-makers, has allowed our cities to be over-run with gangsters and addicts.

Our society cares more for the criminals who justify their actions by saying they needed money. The materialism of Australians is disgusting. Had Vans filthy heroin got through dozens of kids would have been killed and Vans new wealth would have encouraged many copycats who would defend their wealth with deadly force.

Sydney is a lost cause to drug gangs. Lets take Singapores lead and implement tough rules to stop the ruin of society here.

The only thing I would do differently to Singapore is change hanging to beheading. It should also be shown on prime-time TV.

Posted by: Bruce N on November 30, 2005 11:56 AM

NVT is far from innocent, he committed a crime, and should be punished.

But that does not mean he should be executed, particularly in the brutal way it will happen.

We all make mistakes, some bigger than others, but it seems in this country people are no longer forgiven their mistakes or shown any compassion. Should all young people who do something foolish be treated so harshly?

Didn't someone famous once say "let those who have not sinned throw the first stone" ??

To those holier than thou people who argue he did the crime and he should pay, get some damn compassion!

I am becoming ever increasingly disillusioned with this once great country, that now seems to be losing sight of all perspective.

Today I'm ashamed to be a compatriot of those with so little compassion in their heart. You disgust me!

Posted by: Damien R on November 30, 2005 11:55 AM

U do the crime u do the time in another country.

Isn't about time that people wake up and be responsible for their own actions abroad in a foreign country and repect their laws and customs. Mr Howard didn't tell him to be a fool and smuggle herion through Singapore.

I don't think boycotting is going to prove anything, remember its that poor bloke's own fault for getting himself in that mess not the Singaporian or Australian governments.

I am not a supporter of the death penalty but do not believe Australian government can tell another country what it can and cannot do with its citizens if caught breaking the law with punishment. The classic exmple is Leslie who blamed Mr Howard for her plight, she was the one stupied enough to have pills in her handbag. People should be responsible for their own actions when abroad.

Posted by: Ernest on November 30, 2005 11:53 AM

I am a European living in SIngapore....and already after a year here you can tell how the "brain-washing machinery" works.....take today's paper.....they quote from this forum - but they only publish the statements that are in favour of the execution.......They also publish the results of the survey if there should be a minute silence on Friday.....saying that a vast majority in Australia is against it....but of course they do NOT publish any survey results saying that the majority is against the execution......no wonder Singapore ended 140th or 160th in a ranking on press freedom!
And the general attitude of Singaporeans is "shut up and do what you are told", that's the mentality and the upbringing......
And they would never admit that they have no freedeom as this would make them inferior to poorer neighbours who have this freedom....so they sit in a golden cage and pretend everything is fine...I think they pretend so much that they believe it!
Believe it or not, the result of the ranking regarding press freedom was published and there are letters to the newspaper saying "why do we need freedom of the press, we have the good economy".
Another example: a British University decided not to open up a Campus in Singapore as there is no academic freedom....the reaction here "Why do we need this University anyway?".

And let's talk about "safety".....this is the biggest "Joker" the Government uses here....telling people how safe it is....I think people here have the impression that you can not go down the street anywhere else in the world without having a knife in your back. There are articles in the newspaper saying how dangerous it is to drive to Malaysia. We drove there - and it was excellent.
And finally my point of view on the drugs...of course drug smuggling and trading is absolutely not ok....but there is a big defference between that and a capital crime such as clod blooded murder (I do not even support the death penalty there but I have the feeling that in the actual discussion everything is getting mixed up!).
A drug dealer serves a need....he did not make the people an addict (or does he force them to take drugs? NO!). From my point of view it it the individuals choice to take drugs...so do not just blame it on the drug dealer!
Again: I am not saying that drug dealing is ok but it is all a bit balck and white.....

Posted by: Michael on November 30, 2005 11:50 AM

Shame on Darshan Singh for doing the state's dirty work. I hope you answer for your lifetime's work soon. Its people like Darshan that keep the barbaric practice of capital punishment (ie state sactioned murder) going.

Posted by: Luke C on November 30, 2005 11:49 AM

how sad that there are so many vindictive people out there who think that hanging drug mules will ever solve the drug problem.

Posted by: Sue on November 30, 2005 11:46 AM

To quote Jambo:

"To all of you people cheering for Nguyen's state-sanctioned murder, shame. You are the self-obessesed, money-hungry, uncompassionate fools that are so ignorant and bloodthirsty that your ill informed opinions and actions are responsible for the deterioration of this once great country. Your fearless leader is so spineless he cannot stop one of your fellow citizens from being killed by a foreign government. Could you see the UK letting this autocratic little regime execute one of its citizens? Does it make you proud that your great country is so powerless to protect its own people? Maybe that why a majority here like to beat up on asylum seekers as it is this bullying that makes little people feel big".

This is still a great country and FYI, Singapore hangs citizens of ANY country stupid enough to carry drugs through. They make NO exception whatsoever when it comes to punishing criminals. A few years ago, a Dutch citizen was hanged for the same offence and a US citizen was caned for vandalism despite a personal plea from the US President. Just because he is an Australian citizen makes no difference in the eyes of the Singaporean Govt. Like them or not, they have been very consistant.

Posted by: LT on November 30, 2005 11:44 AM

When the Bali Bombers got the death sentence in Indonesia the same Australian public cheered.
Will there be calls for a minutes silence when their time comes?
Morality cannot be selectively applied.

Posted by: Paul on November 30, 2005 11:43 AM

I've been reading the discussions and the articles with the arguments for and against of the hanging of Nguyen. And there is one line of argument I don't understand. A lot of people say that Nguyen should be punished by death because the drugs he was carrying had the potential to kill many thousands of users taking them. This is also one of the official reasons given by Singapore to explain its refusal to commute Nguyen's sentence.

But, wait, is anyone forcing people to take drugs? You say they are addicted and cannot stop? But who forced them to take the first shot? You say they were stupid and ignorant? It's hard to believe that in this day and age there exists a person who hasn't heard that heroin is addictive and deadly. If claim of youth, stupidity and ignorance is a good enough defence for them, why is it not good enough for Nguyen? And if we want to be consistent in protecting irresponsible people from their own stupidity, why don't we prosecute sellers of cigarettes, alcohol and junk food? All these can potentially kill you and can be highly addictive.

Can someone please explain this to me?

Posted by: Yulia on November 30, 2005 11:43 AM

What hypocrites we are. All this selective compassion we bestow upon someone whose actions were knowingly illegal and would have brought untold suffering upon his fellow countrymen; meanwhile foreign jails are teeming with death row inmates, many of whom are mentally incompetent and/or of dubious guilt. Where's our sense of perspective?

And as for "hangman's sickening outburst" - what rot. The media sought to interview him and then chose to publish the results; it's not like he took out a paid ad to broadcast his views.

Posted by: Nigel D on November 30, 2005 11:42 AM

I think everyone should read Peter N.'s post 9.36.

I am not for the death penalty, infact I feel quite sick about what is going to happen on Friday, but the bottom line is that Van took a gamble and now has to pay the ultimate price. None of you can tell me that he did not know what the consequences were. I wont be boycotting Singapore, I think we need to respect Singapore's law, just as we need to respect and live by the law here in Australia.

As sad a this whole situation is I am now leaving this forum and plan what I am going to do on the weekend. Maybe you all need to do the same. Life goes on!

Posted by: micky on November 30, 2005 11:42 AM

I agree, two wrongs do not make a right! Spinal cord snaps as you fall though trap door. heart stops 20mintues later. Barbaric way to die!! YES he had drugs, he did wrong. Death or Life. I say LIFE.

Posted by: D Mihaere on November 30, 2005 11:40 AM

"Has this saga changed the way I view Singapore?" -
Absolutely. I commend the Singapore government for sticking to their laws and not bowing to Australian pressure. Although Australia does not support the death penalty John Howard can not be criticised for not doing anything. It is not his or the Australian people's decision to make. If you visit another country you must respect their laws and don't expect to be given special treatment. Van Nguyen knew the risks of what he was doing and must face the penalty handed down by the Singapore courts. If the tables were turned, would you accept other countries telling us how our legal system should be run?

Posted by: Dan on November 30, 2005 11:39 AM

Singapore scientists embrace plan for cyberhugs:http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=21236
What will those sick narrow minded brainwashed people in Singapore think of next? cyberHang!
No one has the right to take life, PERIOD. Hanging solves nothing. Heroin is evil, should be legalised and controlled by our weak Government.
If this goes ahead then all the Australians in Indonesian Prisons on drug charges should be lined up and shot, coz thats the law there!!
Our Government love is, ignorance is bliss!

Posted by: Boz on November 30, 2005 11:39 AM

Singapore's use of mandatory hanging for those found guilty of certain crimes is the real issue here, not whether Nguyen Tuong Van is guilty or not. The fact is that Singapore has a poor record on human rights and democracy, and it is the duty of people in democratic nations to pressure them to change, and this case is a chance for us to point out these issues to Singaporeans.

While Singapore claims to be a democracy, they are far from it. The People's Action Party has been in power there since independence, and the "founding family" of Singapore has an unusual amount of political power. Critics of the PAP are sued for defamation, or imprisoned on trumped up charges. Media in Singapore is carefully censored to avoid real political dissent.

The real hypocrisy comes from Singapore's support of the notorious Burmese regime, which is actively involved in the drug trade. How can Singapore sentence drug mules to hanging when their own Government does more to support the trade of drugs than they ever will?

Trying to make this debate about the stupidity of one man is missing the point, it should be about human rights, and pressuring a prosperous trading partner of ours to open up to democracy and freedom.

Posted by: Jim on November 30, 2005 11:37 AM

The death penalty is not punishment.

We all die.

Does this mean we are all punished?

Death is normal.

Wake up you fools.

We all get the 'death penalty'.

Some get it the day they are born, most of us after we are 70.

Wake up fools, death is not a penalty.

Death is just as common as life, we all have to go through it.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.

Posted by: Me on November 30, 2005 11:37 AM

Johanna! There are many many Australians vocally opposed to both capital punishment AND abortion!

Posted by: Ben C on November 30, 2005 11:36 AM

the fact is, 26,000 shots have been taken of the street, how many lives do you think the gov saved.. some food for thought.

Posted by: ns on November 30, 2005 11:35 AM

You will feel the pain when one of your family take the drugs and died of overdose. Singapore got my support 100% Go Singapore. and imagine he brings those heroin to AUS. wait till your family take the drugs and you won't feel sorry anymore.

Posted by: Paul J on November 30, 2005 11:34 AM

I love the logic: "He had drugs that will kill people who choose to use them, therefor kill him."

I have not noticed many letters to the editor calling for execution of James Hardie directors? Bartenders who sell alcohol to drunks who they know will be driving?

I cant understand why people are making such a fuss about a conivicted criminal recieving the punishment that he and those like him deserve. He knew the laws of Singapore before he tried to smuggle the herion and now that he's been caught he cant just say sorry and have it forgiven. Are some Australians that bored that they have to jump on what ever bandwagon is going at the time.

Posted by: Matt A on November 30, 2005 11:33 AM

Steve? Why don't you go home, too. Obviously you're not from round here because apparently the only people FROM australia are criminals.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we don't kill people because we believe in redemption and rehabilitation. Don't like it? Move to Saudi Arabia. Or North Korea. In North Korea they put people's families in concentration camps along with the "guilty" people. Someone suggesteed that earlier today for drug traffickers. Now they know where to move to.

Posted by: kim on November 30, 2005 11:30 AM

Just out of interest Johanna, where are you from? A woman has the right to choose I reckon, the government cant control what you do with your body, i think its a very personal thing. But thats a different story I suppose. I was just wondering if youre American?

Posted by: Evan on November 30, 2005 11:28 AM

John C says: "Funny, I don't hear the Australian public or media suggesting that the death penalty handed down to the Bali Bombers be rescinded! Wonder why? "

John are you wondering why you can't remember? Maybe you just need to do some memory exercises. Mensa has some good books.

Lead story on theage.com just a month or two ago was: 'Downer hails Rois conviction.' referring to the Indonesian sentenced to death for bombing Australia's Jakarta embassy. There was also a YourSay forum on that day with a lot of passionate views expressed.

I'm sorry, but it is not racist to assert that a law forbidding the death penalty is morally superior to one that doesn't.

Posted by: Ben C on November 30, 2005 11:28 AM

NVT did the worng thing but ask yourself the question if it was your brother/son/friend and they had made the same (extremely huge) mistake would you support their death? Very recently I lost a close friend in an accident and the pain that that brings should not have to be experienced by anyone, especially when they do not have to die. If Singapore is prepared to put a family through the pain of losing a loved one then yes I think that the Singapore government (not people) have definitely lowered the amount of respect that I could ever have for them.

Posted by: Katelyn on November 30, 2005 11:27 AM

SO go home Joanna.

If Australia is so bloody terrible, then just leave. no one's stopping you. Just like no one's stopping you from NOT having an abortion. Or stopping you from being alive.

Posted by: kim on November 30, 2005 11:26 AM

I cannot understand why people and media are trying to make so much a big issue of it. He is not a hero and did know the penalty. I respect Singapore for standing up for their laws. Australia should respect their laws. This man and many others are embarassing Australia by drug trafficking. And what the Australian govt do? They always try to save the traffickers. So australian people will never learn a lesson since they know as soon as they get into trouble, the govt comes running to save them. The govt. should at least now make it a point to let australians know that they have to pay for their crimes.
As for a minutes silence, what nonsense it is. People and media are trying to make him kind of a hero..Come on...he is not innocent..
I feel so sorry for his mother..People committing these kind of crimes at least now will think twice before doing them...

Posted by: MS on November 30, 2005 11:25 AM

SimonJ,

you have your maths incorrect the correct formulea is:
one wrong + one punishment = justice

Posted by: George on November 30, 2005 11:25 AM

I must say well done to the many narrow minded Australia who wish to pontificate their views upon another sovereign country.

The Singapore Strait times has already started a forum showing anti-Australian comments with our childing responses such as boycott etc.

Short memories the Australians have because back in the 1980s when BArlow and Chambers were hung, Malaysia responded swiftly at the personal comments made by the then prime minister, Bob Hawke and this has cause a severe rift between Malaysia and Australia. Only until now that rift is being reparied.

This forum has included our former prome Minister's comment Gough Whitlam by calling Singapore a "Rouge Country" and the forum is now describing Australia as childish with their behaviour.

Well done Australians for your thought provoking reaction and well done to all the media outlets which has turned this simple drug sentence into circus frenzy.

So far I have viewed various medias across the world and only Australia is holding front page headlines to NTV where only New Zealand had a paragraph mention on their papers because of Helen Clarks comments at CHOGM. IT has only beed recent that Singapore media has picked up on this and showing Australians as little children with a tantrum.

Posted by: Charles W on November 30, 2005 11:23 AM

I am so sick and tired of people bleating about the death of 1 drug dealer. And the thought of a minutes silence is repugnant! This is reserved for men and women who die in the line of duty protecting human life. Not taking it.

I fully respect not just Singapore's law but any countries laws, just as I fully expect any other country to to respect Australian Law.

I would love to here Singaporian's views on Australia's 'Slap on the wrist and let them out to deal more drugs and death, jump bail, rob and bash the elderly, steal cars etc' laws.

Am I going to boycott Singapore - God no. I'm going to keep my Optus home and mobile service and continue to fly Singapore Airlines because the are one of the best. What an absurd thing to ask - that the government of this country to sever all ties with another country for the life of a drug dealer.

All you do gooders and whingers need to have a good hard look at the true victims of this crime. The victims who are robbed, bashed, murdered, have their homes and cars broken into. The like me, you may find you have no compassion for the scum of the earth

Posted by: Perplexed on November 30, 2005 11:23 AM

"I regret coming to this country."

Leave, no one is forcing you to stay.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 11:22 AM

He took his chances to make a quick buck, and lost. He knew the risk and took it anyway.

But what gets me, is the hypocrisy of all these people crying out for Australia to exert pressure on Singapore to change their legal code. Are you the same people who cry about American Imperialism? Who complain about John Howard being the US marshal in Asia? Make up your minds, people - you can't have it both ways!

Posted by: DH on November 30, 2005 11:21 AM

"Killing the innocent and helpless child"

Child? Not even born yet. Leave emotion at and irrationality the door.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 11:21 AM

Mickey D,
I completely agree with you, thats what really gets me about all these people on thier high horses. Everyone who has posted in this forum hs taken drugs at some point or other, be it legal or illegal. The war on drugs cannot be won. I cant say it enough. Drugs can only be controlled if they are legal. Bringing the death penalty into Aus for drugs would be absolutly idiotic. The drug user makes the choice to take drugs, simple. Van should not die for this and anyone who thinks he should is seriously mistaken. I thought we were passed the "eye for an eye" cowboy mentality of these countries like S'pore and America. All the great teachers and philosophers (buddha, ghandi, confucious, etc.) throughout history have campaigned against this DRACONIAN BARBARIC practise. A MAN SHOULD NEVER KILL ANOTHER MAN. end of story.

Posted by: Evan on November 30, 2005 11:21 AM

"Andrew, it may take 3 months to get addicted, but when does that start, the first, third or 20th take? It all comes from somewhere."

3 months is the clue. It takes repeated usage not two hits in 3 months.

People also kill themselves because of relationship break down (and many other reasons), should we ban relationships then or kill the persons who break them up? Leave emotions at the door.

The physical addiction to heroin is easier to break than nicotine, the reasons for taking heroin are not so easy to get over.

Posted by: Andew R on November 30, 2005 11:18 AM

Just had a thought....
If he hadn't been caught...do you think he would have done it again ?

Posted by: Chris R on November 30, 2005 11:15 AM

It's funny how many Australians posted how much they oppose the death penalty when we allow "abortion" in this country. Isn't abortion murder? Killing the innocent and helpless child who has all the right to choose life?

Bunch of selfish hypocrites. I regret coming to this country.

Posted by: Johanna on November 30, 2005 11:13 AM

For Chris R, who said 'I think Van's an idiot. This is just Darwinism in action.' - I agree that he's an idiot for trafficking in south east asia, where the penalties are always going to be incredibly high (even if you don't get the death penalty).

To W Smits, who said 'To all those pleading for Nguyen's life...would you still be doing this if your son or daughter ended up a junkie as a result of those drugs ending up on the streets? I THINK NOT!' - you can't seriously think that killing one drug courier is going to stop all those people out there who have become addicted to heroin from becoming addicted do you? Killing 100 wouldn't! Drug addiction has been proven time and again to be symptomatic of wider social issues, be they unemployment, domestic violence, broken families, peer pressure etc. Killing drug couriers has NO effect on any of these issues.

To Dave, who said 'To all the people making a hero out of this drug trafficker, politicans take note that the overwhelming majority on this feedback line and every other poll support Singapores tough stance on this issue.' - From reading a majority of the posts here, I can't see anyone making him out to be a 'hero'.

I don't think that anyone is denying the fact that he's a criminal - he was sent to trial and convicted of the crime - even Van himself wasn't arguing that! The point is that he's being put to death in a barbaric way via a mandatory sentencing rule that allows no leeway for clemency on the part of the judge.

I value the sanctity of human life - to others who have made comments that amount to 'an eye for an eye' (regarding Bali bombers, Osama Bin Laden etc) - you only need to look at history and the world today to see that this DOES NOT WORK. Time and again (northern ireland, the palestinian/Israeli conflict, the kurdish/turkish ongoing conflict, bosnia, chechnya, the list goes on) we see the principle of 'an eye for an eye' applied - and time and again we see it fail.

I prefer to believe that we live in a moral and civilised society and that we have the ability as a society to punish effectively without giving in to our baser instincts.

It's too easy to fall into the 'hang-em high' mentality - and you may not like it but if you've supported that mentality you have blood on your hands, simple as that.

Mercy and compassion should be the cornerstones of our society - but they are also the most difficult things to hold on to and the easiest things to ignore in situations like this one.

Two wrongs DEFINITELY do not make a right.

Posted by: SimonJ on November 30, 2005 11:13 AM

A young man knowingly going through a country that executes drug couriers in order to help his brother is guilty on two counts, one of being a courier and one of stupidity. Drugs KILL. If he wanted to help his brother that much, take out a bank loan. I don't see any of our bleeding heart politicians/drug apologists condemning the US for being one of only 4 countries left in the world who put juveniles on death row. Sad for his mum, his brother will bear this cross all his life, but for Van no pity.

Posted by: Martin on November 30, 2005 11:11 AM

It's peoples lack of understanding that fuels terrorism, racism and hate. Where do people get these facts from about oppression & coroupt goverments? Nowhere is safe from coruption, it exsits everywhere, the Australian goverment isn't 100% clean either, nor are the Americans, British, French... etc. If you enter another countries land, you abide by their law, people are warned on websites, passports and airports. He knew the risk, he threw the dice, and he got the unlucky hand.
Where else where the drugs going to go? He was gonna make some money from it, at another person(s) expense. Those who make money from suffering get no sympathy from me. I feel for his mother & family but maybe others will learn from this...

Posted by: Stephen on November 30, 2005 11:07 AM

Now I'm not that keen on the death penalty, particularly in this case but one thing is for sure. Not too many Australians will be that keen to traffic drugs into or through Singapore in a hurry. And any that do now, well, the phrase bloody idiot comes to mind.

Posted by: Six on November 30, 2005 11:06 AM

People who blame traffickers are all hypocrites. I'll bet every single one of you takes drugs in one form or another - maybe the only difference is they are 'legal' or 'prescribed' - drugs are drugs - end of story. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Why not death for the McDonalds executives for the all the obesity related heart disease, diabetes etc - this ruins families and destroys lives. Death to the TAB for promoting gambling and ruining peoples lives.

A young man deserves compassion and another chance. Don't we all just want to be given a chance?

Posted by: mickey d on November 30, 2005 11:05 AM

This is abhorrent.
The death penalty is abhorrent.
And this double standards about drugs.
Alcohol kills and destroys far more lives than drugs.

Posted by: Mel on November 30, 2005 11:03 AM

Stuart D.
Someone always has to pull the PC race card thing eh? Please respect singapore, blah blah blah, they have a sovergn right to do what the wish in their own country, blah blah blah...

This is not a superiority complex thing, its not about white people vs. asians (in case you didnt notice Van is not white, he is Aussie, so i dont know where the whitey thing came from). This is about bringing S'pore into the 21st century. The country has problems, I know cos I grew up there and in Malaysia. I speak multiple Asian languages and I am white and I love SEA more than anywhere else in the world but the drug punishments there are DRACONIAN...bottom line. That does not make me racist at all, it makes me a realist. The death penalty is not effective, it doesnt work, every sane rational government in the world knows this.

Posted by: Evan on November 30, 2005 11:03 AM

One thing for sure, I feel a lot safer walking alone in the middle of the night in the streets of Singapore than in the streets of major cities in Australia.

He knew the consequences but yet he was stupid enough to carry out the crime, therefore he should pay the price.

However, if we really want to stop the real killer, ban booze in Australia!

Posted by: John on November 30, 2005 11:02 AM

Maybe I'm slighty biased, my cousin killed himself because of drugs. He had help, support, but in the end he couldn't kick the habbit. And in the end he took a drugs overdose to end it. He was educated, but at the end of the day, someone introduced him to it, and then he became hooked. So why should a drug lord, mule or pusher be allowed to live when they make money from other people's suffering and 'bad choices'. We all make mistakes, but we have to learn from them. Singapore is it's own country. Why should we tell them what's right or wrong? Andrew, it may take 3 months to get addicted, but when does that start, the first, third or 20th take? It all comes from somewhere.

At the end of the day, Singapore has set a law, if u don't like it or don't want to get hung for drug crimes, don't take a day trip there. Personally i say good on them and i wish that all countries had a hard-line stance against drug dealers & terrorists and murderers.

Posted by: Stephen on November 30, 2005 11:01 AM

Has anyone thought about thanking Singapore for stopping this fellow (for good) from bringing the drug into Australia, hence preventing more families from suffering ?

Posted by: Andrew on November 30, 2005 11:00 AM

Capital punishment was introduced by the previous Dictator, Lee Kuen Yew, before the Singapore Government began trading with the Burmese Government. Now the Singapore Government is helping the Burmese drug lords to launder their money for a fee. It's like using your left hand for laundering dirty money and your right hand to hang those people working for the Burmese drug lords.

Posted by: Andrew on November 30, 2005 10:57 AM

Of course it has changed my perceptions of Singapore - that I know am even clearer it is unflinching in its stance against drugs and not bow down to pressure from us, and I respect them for it.

This incident, on the other hand, has also changed my perception of Australia: that some of us are presumptuous, and very hypocritical. Clearly, some standards should benefit us, but every one else we couldn't give a hoot for.

Posted by: RobW on November 30, 2005 10:55 AM

I don't currently have a preconception of Singapore one way or the other at this stage, having only briefly passed through as a commuter, so obviously that hasn't changed. I do find it interesting, and perhaps a bit sad, that people may actually take a strong opinion based upon media gossip. A decision based on sensationalism can hardly be a smart one.

Posted by: bruce on November 30, 2005 10:55 AM

After all that had happened, my views towards Singaporean Government never change. I do have friends in Singapore who are great people (kind hearted) and I have been in Singapore.

2.Singaporean are like "robots"
~> Singapore Government - Here's the rules ... Follow them, they'll do you good..
~> Reality - All media is government controlled... Here's the rules.. follow them or die...
=> Conclusion - The citizens are merely instructed of what to do. Hear s only what they should hear, read only what they should read. [No wonder the citizen doesn't even know anything about Burma] (See yesterday's opinion - Noticed some Singaporean even posted that they didn't know anything about that).

3. Hanging is "Barbaric...". Even dogs are put to death with a needle. Haven't you ever heard this comm before:
" A quality needle.... $20, A "death" serum... $50/litre, a chair... $5, cheap government who invests in drug lords... priceless.". I am against capital punishment but if I were to see a person die (because government is stubborn and don't think rationally), at least go with needle.. It's called "Technology"... Now I wonder; where all the money goes...

I am against capital punishments, I have never supported Singaporean Government, and the saga haven't really changed the way I view Singaporean Government. No offence to any Singaporean but that's just how I feel about the Singaporean Government.

Posted by: Carl on November 30, 2005 10:55 AM

After reading the posted comments on this site, I bet most criminals around the world will start to ponder on immigrating to Australia where everyone can get off lightly.

Come to think of it, Australia is a "penal" colony. THis used to be a place where they throw criminals in right. Now that explains it.

Posted by: Steve on November 30, 2005 10:54 AM

I'm suprised Singapore's hangman is being hanged for his disgraceful comments on the news....that would seem like a suitable punishment for his actions! I'll be avoiding Singapore like the plague.

Posted by: M.Smith on November 30, 2005 10:54 AM

People who sell alcohol and tobacco are drug peddlars too - but these drugs are legal. If the government had any nous, it would legalise heroin. It would cut out all the scumbags who make millions out of the trafficking in it - including, I daresay, some of the big businessmen in Singapore! Van is a small and very dispensable cog in that. His execution will not not stop one death and people are stupid if they think it will. And in all of this, who's choice is it to take the damn drug in the first place. No-one puts a gun to anyone's head and forces them to stick a needle in their arm. Some are silly enough to believe that they can do it occasionally, but once addicted, they then need the drug. And not all heroin addicts are as the media portray them - dirty, doped-out bums lying in the street with needles in their arms. If you can afford your habit, you can live a perfectly normal, to outsiders, life, hold down a good job, and no-one around is any the wiser. No-one arrests peddlars of cigarettes, or alcohol. People tend to forget that these things are drugs too, just as addictive and just as lethal in the wrong hands.

Posted by: Rob on November 30, 2005 10:54 AM

Dear Australians,

Please do remember that NVT case is not a usual one, it is not black and white. In reality, nothing in life ever is. It has raised issues regarding the value of human life, drugs, victims of drugs, a compassionate struggle by our Government and by our people, and the harsh reality of a country that claims it's first world but doesn't appear to be.

Apologies to all those who are offended by the attention Van has received, and the thought of a minute's silence. Please understand that people are overwhelmed and emotionally, it is devastating. Because this about death. It would not receive as much attention if he were jailed for life. For one moment, with the drug addict victims aside, remember that Van was caught up in a drug circle as much as any drug addict and his youthful foolishness thought he could pay his brother's debt with the very stuff that added to his brother's debt. He was young and we all understand that feeling of being young. He is now going to pay the ultimate price, and for now, we should just respect that and give him peace, not argue about the "fuss", because he is facing death. Would you be as brave if you were caught up, no matter what reasons, in the same situation? Or would you just say, "yeah, I deserve it"

So this letter will appear somewhere amongst the many, but I ask as an Australian to every other Australian, to people with power and to people without power, just show as much respect as you can and if you can't or are offended in any way, please let that anger subside for the sake of his family who will live this nightmare forever.

Never, has anything in my life, affected me as this case. Because it has raised so many issues. I realise most importantly, that we are very lucky in Australia that we have the choice to voice our opinion freely. It was Van’s misfortune that he was caught in a country that believe the death penalty is an easy way to combat the misuse of drugs. We should always value our rights in Australia and use it to voice, with educated justifications, what we believe is right or wrong. We should not take it for granted that we live in such a lucky country.
To the Singaporean Government, I urge you to reconsider your values and if there is enormous pressure on you to change your laws, then that must be a sign that something is not quite right.

As a mother, I ask all youth in Australia, to reflect on Van's situation and to take care of yourself and think about your parents when you are faced with serious situations in life. Ask for help if you need it. You aren't warned because you live in fear of law, instead you are encouraged to understand that even if you do not love as much, there are many who love you.

You are not alone, Van, we are thinking of you dearly.

Posted by: Reflection on November 30, 2005 10:54 AM

Singapore government seems to be a bunch of spoilt blokes who are 2 faced. Most of them make Government funded trips to other countries to party, book Hookers and KTV girls and generally do things that they lock other people up for, cause they cant do it in their own country. As Australians we should boycott all goods out of singapore, ask our wharfies not to unload any Singapore goods and take a united stand to let them know that we dont agree or accept this inhumane thing they are doing. I agree, i dont they take a tougher stand against Burma? Because they make too much money from Burma themselves and thats all that they care about now and always have.....Money

Posted by: Vince F on November 30, 2005 10:53 AM

Its like Van Nguyen is responsible for all the deaths and "thousands" lives ruined. I don't know where you people get your figures from. Get real! Tonnes of cocaine, heroine, ecstacy etc get into this country and still, more people die from smoking, car crashes and booze.

Van Nguyen killed or ruined no one's life. You judge him guilty on a hypothetical. That the drugs he had "could have" blah blah...

Those of you who say he knew what he was doing and knew the risk he was taking, lost the gamble and deserves what he gets should consider that drug addicts also knew the risks of their actions. They lost the gamble of their life. So they deserve to die as well right?

Posted by: James N on November 30, 2005 10:52 AM

Esther,

Your missing the point.

The people putting him to death live on drug money. No one would care what the judgement was if it were handed out be good people, it is handed out by the scum that should be hanging for allowing the drug trade to happen.

That is the problem!

No other bleeding heart guilt trip is relevant.

Posted by: John Smith on November 30, 2005 10:50 AM

Weak kneed politicans like Bracks and Hull have jumped on the wrong bandwagon here.... the vast majority of oz people support Singapore in combating the drug trade whatever it takes.

Bracks and Hull want to support a serious criminal offender who would have delivered 26,000 hits of heroin on to the streets of Oz.
Are you mad!

Says it all doesnt it about the priorities of the Bracks labour government... cant get a hospital bed, schools buildings falling apart, laughable crime stats, speed camera tollerences that fine you for exceeding a walking pace... the list goes on for this government.
But wait a minute lets rush off to Singapore on a matter that is clearly federal government and no state responsibility at all.

That wasted money on Hulls trip of probably up to $10,000 would have been a great donation to Odessey or other drug rehab programs - yes help the ones trying to get off the drugs not people trying to bring the stuff in to the country for more endless suffering!.

Roll on Nov 06 to get rid of this do nothing, tax mad, publicity seeking government.

Posted by: Bill on November 30, 2005 10:50 AM

When is Australia going to impose real penalties on those who destroy our children and commit other violent acts against members of our community

Posted by: Gary Gillies on November 30, 2005 10:47 AM

"What Van did was stupid and wrong and just plain nasty and greedy, but there is no point killing him. It won't stop anyone else."

Yes it does. It makes the next australian mule think very hard whether he/she wants to transit in Singapore. Maybe Bali is a better destination to transit, it's only 15 years, maybe less if they bribe, or may Bangkok as a transit point, the Bangkok Hilton isn't too great, at least they doan hang Aussies there.

Posted by: ray on November 30, 2005 10:43 AM

Here is the text of a post I tried to put on ChannelAsia News forum but was not approved - one wonders why:

Let us not allow a debate over the death penalty to descend into petty racial stereotyping. The fact is there are many Australians who are implacably opposed to the death penalty wherever it occurs - Singapore is not some special case. This is not a debate about obeying laws - that is simplistic nonsense - this is about the dignity and sanctity of human life, and whether the laws impose punishments that fit the crime - and in the case of Nguyen, death by hanging is clearly disproportionate. Long may the Singaporeans rail against we ignorant Aussies not respecting your laws and customs, but in their rush to deride us for disagreeing with suspending a person at the end of a rope, to break his neck with extreme violence, they ought remember that they show us no respect for our depth of view on such a punishment.

Lets get onto the issue of the drugs he was carrying and the doses. Yes, that is a lot of heroin for one person to contemplate - but an absolute speck compared to what flows through your and other countries and into Australia. The Singaporeans talk of protecting your people and ours? Breaking the neck of a drug mule wont stop the flow of heroin. The large flows of this drug can only happen with the connivance and corruption of government, police and military personnel - including those in Singapore. It is more than likely that members of the Singapore Government who would vote to see this young man die have directly or indirectly profited from the heroin trade - principally from Burma.

Here is a thing, Burma is heavily invested in by Singapore - the corrupt military machine in Burma is effectively propped up by Singaporean investment capital, and yet the corrupt Burmese regime is the single biggest reason why Burma retains its position as the centre of the golden triangle. If Singapore were truly committed to eradicating the flow of heroin through its borders, sending less aid to Burma might be a good start. To my mind, the actions of Singapore to date do more to facilitate the flow of this drug to Australia than benighted souls like Nguyen.

Breaking Nguyen's neck will achieve nothing - and the flow of heroin will continue unabated.

Posted by: john t on November 30, 2005 10:42 AM

This is amazing... 3.5Kg of heroin, read the facts, 396grams of heroin was the actual amount found on Tran Van Nguyen. 8000 opiate overdoses since 1998, laughable.. since 1998, 35000+ people have died on Australia's road because of drink driving, you don?t see us ending the life of the pleb behind the wheel in these cases do you? Why because we accept that people can make mistakes and should have the opportunity to be rehabilitated.

Capital punishment in this case is way too severe a penalty to impose, under these circumstances. TVN was in transit was never actually in Singapore as he never cleared customs and immigration in Singapore, so the argument by the Sing government that they are saving the lives of Singaporeans is rubbish.. Ever been there clean and sanitary on the surface, seedy and corrupt and having a massive drug problem underneath, no better than any other country in the world.. Proof positive that killing small time drug smugglers does not achieve anything..

I wonder how many people here in their lives have got a skin full of booze and driven home, I?ll bet more than 90% (a far bigger killer than heroin has ever been).. I also wonder how many people here who advocate lawful taking of a human life would have the guts to press the button or pull the lever, I'm tipping 0%, how would you sleep with that on your conscience..

He made a mistake, granted a bad one but he does not deserve to DIE FOR IT?

Posted by: B3z on November 30, 2005 10:42 AM

The only hypocrites in this case are Australia. Strange that not a word has been mentioned for the other 400 people executed by Singapore in recent history. But I suppose they weren't Australian criminals so that made it OK.

This isn't even a news event outside of Australia or Singapore and it makes a lot of people look very naive and petty.

Posted by: Steve R on November 30, 2005 10:42 AM

This case has reinforced my view that Singapore is an authoritarian country ruled by dictatorial central group without a heart.

I will boycott singapore- it's products and services in Australia.

I have not been to Singapore and vow to never visit it. My husband have lived there and said that even little misdemeanour as sticking chewing gum in public places attracts fines. Think of the teenager American that was caned bec of spray painting. The punishment is worst than the "crime"

I think it is a boring country, in which 84% of the people live in high rise gov't housing. Behind the boring garish of megamalls lie the barbaric substance of the country.

Posted by: Myrla O on November 30, 2005 10:40 AM

I believe all of us are paying loads of taxes to the government to support the welfare of the Australian communities. However, I am sick of street druggies coming to me and ask "Hey mate, could you spare me some loose change?" Why are there so many people asking for money from us the tax payers, where they have the capablities to work for a living instead of using our taxes and money to buy drugs! I have a cousin who died of drugs overdose and should we be forgiving a drug trafficker for tempting our love ones? I have been to so many cities in Australia and you could see that drugs is a major problem in an advance country like Australia. Do you want to see your home being broken into, your car being smashed, your son or daughter getting kidnapped? The streets that we live in now is not safe at all. Why does these all happen? This is because of drug traffickers in this lovely country wants to make a quick million are are allowed to go away lightly after they have been caught. My fellow countrymen, read and reflect on these potential situation and put yourself in many of those who have loves ones died due to drugs or have gone through all these times of distress.

Posted by: Simon on November 30, 2005 10:39 AM

Singapore rocks? Alcohol is expensive, no chewing gum, can't have fun without worrying if you're gonna get death penalty or canned. Which part of it that rocks?

Posted by: Cherish on November 30, 2005 10:36 AM

"The notion that tobacco and alcohol kills too can not taken in the same context."

Yes they can. Alcoholism destroys more lives than heroin. Tobacco smoking and alcohol drinking related diseases cost us more socially and economically than does heroin.

"What next....gambling? Lets boycott the Crown Casino then!"

That is a good idea, gambling produces ruined lives too.

" A few cigarettes will not kill you. A few glasses of wine is actually good for you! A few shots of heroin can destroy many lives."

No a few shots of heroin will not. One does not get addicted to heroin on the first, second or fifth use. It takes steady use over at least 3 months, look it up. Ignorance is no excuse. Even addiction will not riun one's life or that of others, it is the circumstances of the addict that does that.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 10:34 AM

Whatever it is, I still stand strong on my view of the death penalty in any circumstance. I am opposed to such punishment and I personally think it is outdated and inhumane. However, there should be no double standards here. You are either against the death penalty, or for it. You cannot say "The 'Bali Bombers' deserve to die", but "Van deserves to live". There is no consistency there.

As a law student, I believe no matter what crime has been committed, the death penalty is not the answer. Such a suggestion by Hangman Darshan Singh that hanging will be a 'complete rehabilitation' for criminals is inaccurate. Rehabilitation is only achieved by acknowledging one's wrong through criminal punishment while still alive. You cannot rehabilitate when dead. Although I do respect Mr Singh's belief in rebirth, I would say those comments are inappropriate in such circumstances. In fact, his conduct has ignited much controversy and anger. Rightfully so.

As for my stance on the Singapore government, it has never changed. I was never fond of their system. I have never supported the death penalty and will continue to oppose it. There are a number of other possibilities out there which are in line with contemporary society. I support Mr Lex Lasry QC in his 'blistering attack' on the death penalty.

Drug intake is usually voluntary. You cannot blame drug traffickers for your choice to take drugs. I am surrounded by drug traffickers all the time. It's my choice: "No." Simple economics. Where there is supply, there may be demand. That demand is the result of people's choice. Similar situation comes from the fact that many of us are blaming other sources for our misfortunes. For example, it is also our choice to eat junk food. We cannot blame McDonald's for our weight. It's our choice or at least our parents' choice to feed us such food. If you want a happy meal toy, you can always buy it separately - no arguments there.

As for boycotts and the like, I feel that such is a waste of time and that the roots of the problems do not lie with commerce.

V should pay for his crime, Singapore is right in punishing those who are convicted of their crime.

Posted by: j on November 30, 2005 10:32 AM

The death penaly is nothing short of murder. Judicial systems are created so that criminals pay for their crimes and have a chance at rehabilitation (so they say). When a crime is commited the criminal is put away so that they can no longer do harm. Killing that criminal is plain and simply MURDER. Singapore, and all other nations that still impose the death penalty are guilty of murder. Killing an imprisoned person is a low and dispicable act and will not make the world a better place. If a country's judicial system has to resort to the death penatly, than they are clearly failing in their duty to protect the lives of all it's citizens.

Posted by: Mad Mouse on November 30, 2005 10:31 AM

"how do we know that it is not God's will that NVT be hanged. "

Thou shalt not kill, judge not.., he who is without sin.., turn the other cheek etc.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 10:29 AM

Singapore.
Modern and correct.Its a shame that their 21st.centuary includes Judicial State Murder.

Posted by: Graham. on November 30, 2005 10:17 AM

Come off it, even America doesn't execute drug traffickers, and not first time offenders. Do any of the Monsieurs et Mesdames Defarge cheering Singapore's stance here really believe that Van Nguyen is one of the big fish? Of course he's not, he was a desperate mule who did something incredibly stupid and callous but he doesn't deserve to die. Why don't we ever hear about one of these countries catching someone who's actually high up in the food chain of heroin production and distribution? They execute a couple of backpackers and we're supposed to think they're winning the war on drugs? Give me a break.

I'm opposed to the use of the death penalty for any crime as it dehumanises all of us. For anyone who believes they have the right to judge another human being and end their life, I leave you with the words of Gandalf:

"Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Posted by: Kate Stewart on November 30, 2005 10:16 AM

Poor Australia! It must be hard to realise that, just over the water that surrounds us, there are countries that don't pander to our jingoistic (and false) "fair-go" culture. These countries do what they feel they have to do to survive. They make laws (as we have) and expect those laws to be observed (as we do).
If one of THEIRS was caught and hung for this offense we wouldn't care because we wouldn't know. It would not be reported but we know about this bloke and we know about him because this is all a big case of "us and them". Us with our "big hearts and compassion" and them with their "medieval laws and corruption".
So pat yourself on the back if you're angry at Singapore today. By refusing to respect their decisions you reinforce the idea that us whiteys are here in SE Asia to educate and liberate the poor blighters, to lead the stray back to the flock, to illuminate the huddled masses.
Smack kills. This idiot dealt smack. He is busted. This is the law.

Must we always change the law for "pretty" criminals....?

Posted by: Stuart D on November 30, 2005 10:16 AM

Peter N:
It is that sad attitude that prevents change. Anyone is free to say what they like, if Singapore are going to behave like children and get their back up over one person's opinion, you should be posting on one of the g'ment papers in Singapore saying what a disgrace it is, rather than padding the problem with posts like this one. What you have said breaking it down is, Singapore is corrupt and will abuse power.

The more people stand up and speak the sooner it will change. The change should start with well educated Singaporeans.

We are trying to bring the Singapore regime in to this century. I'm sick people using this save face rubbish, when I believe it is the route cause of the corruption in Asia. I speak an Asian language and have spent six years in Asia. It is not racism it is realism.

Singapore, don't act moral when you are an antiquated disgrace to humanity, dressed in money!

Posted by: John S on November 30, 2005 10:15 AM

has the Nguyen decision irrevocably damaged Australia's relationship with Singapore? Has the saga changed the way you view Singapore?

IS THE POPE CATHOLIC?

Posted by: ben-e-boi on November 30, 2005 10:15 AM

The death penalty is clearly not a desirable solution in a vast majority of instances. However, he knew what he was doing, he knew the penalty and accepted that risk. I truly feel sorry for Nguyen and especially his family.

The crime was admitted and the penalty applied, whether we agree or not we must accept that a foreign government has a right to deal with criminals according to their laws. A very sad case though.

Posted by: Gerry M on November 30, 2005 10:14 AM

"SINGAPORE'S economic linkage with Burma is one of the most vital factors for the survival of Burma?s military regime," says Professor Mya Maung, a Burmese economist based in Boston. This link, he continues, is also central to "the expansion of the heroin trade." Singapore has acieved the distinction of being the Burmese junta?s number one business partner - both largest trading partner and largest foreign investor. More than half these investments, totaling upwards of $1.3 billion, are in partnership with Burma?s infamous heroin kingpin Lo Hsing Han who now controls a substantial portion of the world?s opium trade. The close political, economic and military relationship between the two countries facilitates the weaving of millions of narco-dollars into the legitimate world economy."

Doesn't it make you angry hearing that Singapore will hang the small time traffickers but yet have economic ties with the main drug lord? HOW IRONIC!

If Singapore controls the media coverage, wouldn't you singaporean worry about what else can the government be hiding from its citizen? Cos i would.

Posted by: Cherish on November 30, 2005 10:14 AM

Funny, I don't hear the Australian public or media suggesting that the death penalty handed down to the Bali Bombers be rescinded! Wonder why? Just because Australia does not have the death penalty, does not make us any more civilised than those that do. There is a deep rooted sense of arogancy in this country that seems to think we are always right. There are close on half a billion people in SE Asia, and only 20 million on Australia. We are just not important, and trying to throw our weight around SE Asia just makes us a laughing stock! But then we are used to that!! A little more respect and understanding of the feelings and laws of other countries might not go amiss. I note that a we have just granted bail to yet another Drug Dealer in this country. The man in Singapore is another convicted drug dealer, and although I feel very sorry for his family, he is getting his just desserts.

Posted by: John S on November 30, 2005 10:12 AM

What Van did was stupid and wrong and just plain nasty and greedy, but there is no point killing him. It won't stop anyone else. Humans are too stupid and too greedy. Killing him will not stop the big crime bosses and the people who produce the drugs. Like Burma.

There is no point killing him, because it won't make a scrap of difference.

The death penalthy has not worked in the USA and does't work anywhere else, either.

Posted by: kim on November 30, 2005 10:11 AM

To Shane:

Pray tell Shane, since when and how does VN's hanging relate to Singapore being corrupt or freedom of speech?
Have you looked in your backyard recently?

Posted by: Alex N on November 30, 2005 10:11 AM

To everyone who keeps going on about how killing one man is worth it as it has saved the lives of thousands of others eg. drug addicts I have some points to make.

Firstly there are so many drug mules out there that when one is caught another one steps upto the plate so the drugs will get into this country either way. There is no shortage of greedy, desperate and/or stupid people in this world. So the idea that by catching and then executing drug mules Singapore has made one iota of difference to the heroin related death toll or the misery caused to the families of said addicts in Australia is laughable.

Mandatory/non mandatory death penalties seem on the face of things to not deter drug trafficking. I don't think anyone can claim that execution for drug smuggling in many Asian countries is a successful deterent. Its not actually a deterent for any crime look at the murder rate in the USA.

Secondly two wrongs do not make a right. Any senseless death or wasted life is a dreadful, dreadful thing be it drug mule or addict.

State sanctioned murder is wrong which ever way you look at it because it sends a message to it's people whether they realise it or not that killing in most cases is wrong but ok if the government does it.

Finally Nguyen Tuong Van is young and young people make mistakes they shouldn't have to pay with their lives.

This whole sorry saga has not changed my opinion of Singapore I have always felt that any nation that executes its citizens in this day and age is a hypocritical joke. Tomorrow another junkie will overdose and another family will grieve the senseless waste of a human life. This will happen regardless of Nguyen Tuong Van's execution.

Posted by: jmm on November 30, 2005 10:10 AM

as terrible as the death penalty is, he must remember - he knew what he was doing, what he was carrying and he knew what the penalty was for bringing it through singapore. ignorance is not an excuse. and can we all get over the obsession with AUSTRALIAN drug dealers in ASIA. remember these are different, although neighbouring regions of the globe with vastly different cultures and laws, which we must respect as we expect them to respect ours. I guess we can't wait til friday - as then we can go on and on and on deliriously for the next 6 months or so creating martyrs, monuments and minutes' silence out of the bali 9. Again, heroin mules. are we that naive and boring? or has the age become "no idea"?

Posted by: adam c on November 30, 2005 10:08 AM

I wish Australia was more like Singapore. In Singapore you can go out on the streets at night and not worry about crime. Its a country that has an incredible history and an incredible people. I don't know why we in the West always think their ways are better, maybe its just an inferiority complex. As far as I'm concerned, Singapore Rocks!

Posted by: Peter W on November 30, 2005 10:07 AM

There is a huge difference between a murderer and a drug runner. People do not choose to be murdered, people DO chose to take drugs. People who are taking drugs should be responsible for themselves. That seems to be how it works when it comes to alchohol. Its not possible to win the war on drugs when some drugs are legal (alco) and others are not. Its also barbaric to hang someone, no matter what they did. And most of all, what really tops it off for me, is the inhumanity of the Singaporean government. Not to let the bloke hug his Ma before he dies. That is criminal. He ran drugs, he should serve a stiff sentence, but he should not die, bottom line. But until Singapore changes this barbaric practise, she will be viewed as a second rate country in the eyes of the Western world, as most of Europe views America.

I used to Live in Singapore, some of the best days of my life to be honest. But my mother hated it, she hated the government, the big brother-esque feeling of the country. Now as an adult, I understand the problem of living in a country run by a government with no conscience. I would never move back unless Singaporeans gain the right to a voice. They are scared to speak, and as long as that goes on the government sanctioned killing will also go on. Its such a pity that there are people in this forum that agree this kid should be killed. We have a long way to go.

Where is the humanity?

Posted by: Evan on November 30, 2005 10:06 AM

OK so the guy deserves at least 10 years in gaol for trafficking in heroin. It is a serious offence. But the death penalty is barbaric and protestations against this practice should continue. The Australian government could have had him extradited, but basically doesn't have the guts to do that so strong is the call of their trade relationship with Singapore. Meanwhile the Singapore banks do business with Burma...

Posted by: Megan on November 30, 2005 10:05 AM

No, I tell a lie. It's a draw between Scott O and Esther. Bravo, lads!

Posted by: HRH JPW on November 30, 2005 10:05 AM

I am saddened with the loss of another life to drug trafficking but I am glad that Singapore has the guts to stand her grounds against the Australian media and politicians. I bet we would not THREATHEN the US or China under similar circumstances. We have no right to teach another country how to rule themselves. We have the right to determine how we want to live and so does another sovereign state. So please stay out for we are beginning to make a fool of ourselves by this 'little red dot' over a drug smuggler.

Posted by: Francis on November 30, 2005 10:04 AM

Australians who think that the only law is Australia's law are a bunch of racists and idiots. Now I know why almost everyone who's been to your country says that Australia is the MOST racist country in the world. You think everyone who lives in Asia are stupid. Well if Asians are dumb, Australians are dumber.

Boycotting Singapore products will not bring down Singapore's economy. Maybe Australia's will. Your country's economy is as dependent to other countries for survival as Singapore is.

No wonder a lot of businesses choose to outsource to Asia. Not only are they cheaper, they are a lot more effective and smarter. Value for money.

Posted by: John on November 30, 2005 10:02 AM

Scott O wins the forum!

Posted by: HRH JPW on November 30, 2005 10:02 AM

The fact that we as Australians believe that the punishment does not fit the crime is more a reflection of our own soft laws concerning drugs. The notion that tobacco and alcohols kill too can not taken in the same context. What next....gambling? Lets boycott the Crown Casino then! A few cigarettes will not kill you. A few glasses of wine is actually good for you! A few shots of heroin can destroy many lives.
Lets accept a foreign countires laws for what they are and get on with more important issues at hand. Boycotting Singapore or its products is as foolish an idea as a minutes silence and an insult to our servicemen and women who have died for this country. As for the PM, I am not a big fan of John Howard but I think he has handled this matter as well as could be expected.

Posted by: James on November 30, 2005 9:59 AM

"it doesn't have any mandatory-death-penalty crimes and it is progressing (if haphazardly) towards abolishing it."

Yes it does have mandatory death penalty, treason for one IIRC. Federally it is not making any moves to ban it and the states where it is popular are not looking to ban it.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 9:58 AM

To Jezza who said :

"This has not changed my view of any of these delighful South East Asian countries who seem to execute people for what is possibly the modern day equivalent of stealing a loaf of bread".

"Stealing a loaf of bread"?

Please read the papers this morning. Another Aussie drug mule cuaght. This time in Africa.

Q: what is Australia's fastest growing export?

A: Not steel but drug mules.

To all of you who are mad about the coming hanging and calling for boycotts and a minute of silence I ask you to bear in mind the fact that it is your own reaction that will ensure NVT hangs. The more outlandlish and abusive your views are the stronger will be the Singapore Govt's resolve to punish NVT as a lesson in case others with similar views decide to join the new growth industry in Aussie drug trafficking.

To the Catholic church I say as a Catholic: As much as I believe in repentance and reconciliation, how do we know that it is not God's will that NVT be hanged. Yes, it is man who will carry out the sentence but can we be sure that God has not intended this as His way of making NVT come back to him?

NVT will return to God as a repentant sinner and not some drug pusher shot dead in a gangfight. Is his coming death senseless?

NVT accepts his fate and knows he will be with God soon. Why do we others who believe in God not see what he sees?

Posted by: Peter N on November 30, 2005 9:58 AM

Does anyone think the Singapoean Govt would even blink if one of their nationals was sentenced to death or life in jail for drug smuggling overseas. Its not as if they target Australians like in Indonesia. Remember people, It was less than 50 years since Australia stopped executing people, I dont think Society has changed that much. I feel sorry for his mother but I also feel sorry for each person who dies with a hot shot in the arm. Hanging is harsh, but that is the way they do it. Lets move on poeple, we will not change their minds.

Posted by: Stewart on November 30, 2005 9:57 AM

Singapore and the rest of Asia treat Australia with contempt. Are we allowed to compete fairly in their countries? No - but we are thinking of letting Singapore Airlines compete with Qantas on the Australia -US route. Who own Optus - SingTel (Singapore Telecom) - again would they let an Australian company own one of their major companies?

Yet they are willing to execute one of our citizens. Granted what Nguyen did was wrong but he does not deserve to die. While there is demand for drugs, drug trafficking will not stop. They need to get the big guns and not the mules.

Nguyen wasn't even taking the drugs into Singapore- he was only in transit. The drugs were coming to Australia. Shouldn't then Australia be the one to convict and punish Nguyen?

Posted by: George on November 30, 2005 9:56 AM

emily p (and others) says "I respect other countries laws."

Let me explain something to you people: It is not noble to respect laws that have been imposed without the consent of the people.

There are no independent courts, no vigourous independent media, no practical opposition parties and certainly no fair elections in Singapore.

How can anyone who believes in government with the consent of the governed recognise any law installed in such a place? Least of all the practice of hanging, which was put in place in Singapore by colonial masters.

No, I can proudly say I do not respect the laws of Singapore. In fact I have nothing but disdain for them.

Posted by: Ben C on November 30, 2005 9:55 AM

"There were almost 8000 Opiate overdose deaths since 1988!! Thats more than 1 death a day"

Did you bother to read the stats on tobacco and alcohol. They kill far more people yet are legal. Hypocrisy is the order of the day. Road accidents kill about the same yet cars are legal.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 9:54 AM

To all of you people cheering for Nguyen's state-sanctioned murder, shame. You are the self-obessesed, money-hungry, uncompassionate fools that are so ignorant and bloodthirsty that your ill informed opinions and actions are responsible for the deterioration of this once great country. Your fearless leader is so spineless he cannot stop one of your fellow citizens from being killed by a foreign government. Could you see the UK letting this autocratic little regime execute one of its citizens? Does it make you proud that your great country is so powerless to protect its own people? Maybe that why a majority here like to beat up on asylum seekers as it is this bullying that makes little people feel big.

Posted by: Jambo on November 30, 2005 9:53 AM

If Australia wants its new-found opposition to the death penalty to be taken seriously then it should make a formal declaration to that effect; that it opposes all death sentences. To underline that point it should say that it requests that the death sentence/s of the bali bombers including Amrozi should be commuted. Australia would have to have it's view on the death sentences taken more seriously if we display opposition of the death sentence to those who have directly hurt us in a most horrific way.

The saga has changed the way I view Singapore but probably not in the way expected. A little reading has shown me how tenuously democratic the country is. A nice expression I read or heard elsewhere was "In Australia the people control the government (well, except when the government have control of both house of reps and the saneate (tee hee)) and in Singapore the government control the people". The government uses all sorts of legal commercial and media mechanisms to deny the opposition or any voice of decent to be heard. Singapore values money and the accumulation of the symbols of wealth and that is pretty much it. It is a more extreme version of " he who has the gold makes the rules". Singapore in some way has to have its stiff penalties in a nation state version of the "small man complex". It likes to have countries beg for mercy and then turn them down. Singapore is a facade nation; it has no resources; it is simply a conduit and an emergent China may make it a little redundant before too long.

The flaw in its death penalty usage is its mandatory nature. But it is unreasonable of Australia to expect Singapore to make and exception in this case. Australia has a hypocritical and inconsistent position on the death penalty. Sure we don?t have it here but it is not as simple as that to say that to Singapore or who ever. Australia only protests the death penalty in case where an Australian is threatened with it. That is the greatest problem in that when we make an argument that is basically " don't hang him as he's Australian" it is viewed contemptuously by other countries. If it is good enough for their citizens then it is good enough for ours. Conversely, they don't hear us asking for mercy on non Australian citizens. Van was going to hang and everybody had to have known it when he was sentenced. There simply was no precedent for him to be let off. Yes there are double standards a plenty but there are as many involving Australia as there are involving Singapore.

Posted by: Grumpy Alex on November 30, 2005 9:52 AM

"but the lives of the hundreds of addicts "

No one forces them to buy. And why aren't we doing anything to help addicts stop? It's a social problem most of the time.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 9:52 AM

Singapore's reputation has never been very high in my estimation. Mr Koh says that most Singaporeans support the death penalty; the truth is that most Singaporeans support whatever the Singapore Govt tells them to. Failure to do so or speaking out against the govt results in political, financial and social ruin. Let's not kid ourselves; despite it's appearance of prosperity and all the trappings of a civilised society, this is a political and social dictatorship with more similarity in real terms to the military Junta of Burma than to Australia. I for one will not be darkening Singapore's doorstep in the forseeable future.

Posted by: Christopher W on November 30, 2005 9:52 AM

Of course Singapore has the soverign right to do as it pleases. Anyone who is suggesting boycotting Singapore is a disgrace and embarassment to this country. The US and China do as they please and I don't hear any complaints about them from these so called do-gooders. Fact is NVT is a criminal not a hero and will be subject to the punishment of his crime. I have no desire to cheer or feel sympathy for him. Singapore's stance on drugs has been well known for the last 3 decades, so people like NVT know EXACTLY the consequences.

Posted by: LT on November 30, 2005 9:51 AM

"SINGAPORE'S economic linkage with Burma is one of the most vital factors for the survival of Burma's military regime," says Professor Mya Maung, a Burmese economist based in Boston. This link, he continues, is also central to "the expansion of the heroin trade." Singapore has acieved the distinction of being the Burmese junta's number one business partner - both largest trading partner and largest foreign investor. More than half these investments, totaling upwards of $1.3 billion, are in partnership with Burma's infamous heroin kingpin Lo Hsing Han who now controls a substantial portion of the world's opium trade. The close political, economic and military relationship between the two countries facilitates the weaving of millions of narco-dollars into the legitimate world economy."

Doesn't it make you angry hearing that Singapore will hang the small time traffickers but yet have economic ties with the main drug lord? HOW IRONIC!

If Singapore controls the media coverage, wouldn't you singaporean worry about what else can the government be hiding from its citizen? Cos i would.

Posted by: Cherish on November 30, 2005 9:50 AM

"No other drug on the planet is in the same league, it is the worst of the worst"

You don't know much about heroin. It takes at least 3 months of use to get addicted and it's relatively easy to kick the physical habit. There are much worse drugs out there, cocaine and it's derivatives being some.

So much mouthing off on here yet so little knowledge behind it. Almost seems that creationists are debating.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 9:50 AM

I find it laughable that the families of drug abusers try to blame the drug traffickers and dealers.

Nguyen is about to pay with his life for the wrong that he did. Perhaps the drug users should take personal responsibility, too. Not doing so just makes you a hypocrite.

Posted by: J on November 30, 2005 9:49 AM

Singapore is showing its true colours. Its little more than another tepid backwater in Asia relying on oppression of its people an human rights for all. Not a country to be respected, not a holiday destination for my family and not a business partner for my company.

Posted by: Dave on November 30, 2005 9:48 AM

Regardless of the crime, no-one has the right to take another's life. A civilised society does not terminate a life because someone's experiences have led them to become involved in drug trafficking. A civilised society understands that we are all capable of doing wrong if our life experiences facilitiate this. A civilised society does not make a judgement about whether someone is worthy of living. To be able to make this decision, one would have had to have stood in Van Nguyen's shoes since birth to understand why he took the path that he did. Why can't people see that there is no inherent good or evil in us. We are a product of our experiences and nothing more. How dare we decide that someone does not deserve to live by just looking at one single aspect of their life.

Posted by: merry on November 30, 2005 9:48 AM

"Does anyone see capital punishment as wrong in these incidents?"

Yes.

Posted by: Andrew R on November 30, 2005 9:46 AM

The saga definitely has not changed the way I view Singapore. My son is an expat there and I visit frequently. It is a very safe place and does not suffer the effects of the drug culture to the extent of Australia (burglaries and drug deaths). Anyone who travels in Asia cannot be ignorant of the consequences of being caught with drugs......we would do better, as a society, to encourage the notion that we are all responsible for our own actions.
I am totally against capital punishment, but respect the right of other countries and cultures to determine their own laws and punishments, especially when (as in this case) it is so widely publisised.
I feel for his mother.

Posted by: Sandy on November 30, 2005 9:45 AM

This gets more ridiculous every day, this whole issue is the medias new 'children overboard' saga.
I guess we should expect nothing else bearing mind that while most of the media are owned by multinational companies with conservative political views they usually employ socialists to write for them in order to satisfy quotas and keep the antidiscrimination litigators off them.
Look, its like this, people don?t care and are sick of the whole issue.

Posted by: NJW on November 30, 2005 9:44 AM

No this hasn't changed my opinion of Singapore. I always thought it was a dispicable place with a dispicable regime and I still do.

Unlike its other Aisan neighbours it can't hide behind statements like, "we're backward and underdeveloped, just let us opress our people a little longer until we get rich." Not that those are acceptable, but Singapore already is rich!

Yet it has no democracy, it opresses opposition leaders, free speech and general free behaviour. We've all heard the toilet laws. It discriminates against women, single people, homosexuals and whoever else doesn't conform into little SIngaporean robot life.

It shouldn't have taken this for us to realise.

I never stop over in Singapore, I never fly Singapore airlines. I canceled my TXU energy. I phased out my use of Optus. Take a stand people. Unlike in other countries, these are not privately held companies, they are government owned. The boycott directly impacts the Singapore Government. Also write your MPs and senators demanding they tell the Treasurer not to allow SIngapore Airlines access to the AU-US route. Give it to Air NZ, Cathay Pacific or maybe Pacific Blue instead.

In Australia we believe in free enterprise, free press, free speech. We believe in freedom.

Tell Singapore that enough is enough.

Posted by: Ben C on November 30, 2005 9:43 AM

I wont intentionally boycott Singapore as i respect every countries laws, at least hanging is better then Sharia Law, right?. It is too hot for me anyway, like Bali is too, now that is a dump i'll never go to! For every simpleton who cancels their phone contract, there will be a person to fill the space. Not to worry.

Posted by: emily p on November 30, 2005 9:40 AM

Yes, Nguyen is guilty of drug smuggling and should be punished. Even the man himself has acknowledged his guilt. Does the man deserve to die? No he does not! Nguyen should be punished and a lenghty goal sentence would certainly be appropriate. As for Singapore, the government there is one of the most corrupt government's in Asia. Singapore is a one party state run by a group of individuals that are nothing more than akin to the mafia. Singaporean citizens have no rights or democratic freedoms. 'Seditious' activities, sound familiar, are quickly and abruptly deal with, or should I say the persons involved. In the grand scheme of things, Nguyen's criminality in insignificant when compared to the government of Singapore and the cronies that rule the place.

Posted by: Shane F on November 30, 2005 9:39 AM

An Australian life is as valued as any other life in the world, let it be a Singaporean, an American, Sudanese or a Pakistani. If a Singaporean subject was to smuggle drugs through Singapore, I am SURE that Singapore would have done the same thing as it has done now to the Australian. And, even if the concerned Singaporean had a sad family and financial background, Singaporean govt. will have had a hard stand on him. So what makes one think that being an Australian should command a clemency and pardon? It does not follow the same logic when you see everyone as the same. Furthermore, Singapore, being a sovereign country has the right to implement laws to protect its own society. Put this in perspective. Who gave the right to Australia to send troops to Iraq to "Help" out in the war/peace mission? Think about it.

Posted by: Kannan on November 30, 2005 9:39 AM

Why can't Nguyen hug his mum? What is Singapore reason for not letting prisoners on death row not touch their loved ones!

Posted by: Max C on November 30, 2005 9:39 AM

I am a Singaporean living in Melbourne. I am also a lawyer in both Singapore and Victoria.

Lex Lasry QC for all his efforts should be allowed some latitude. He's entitled to be emotional. However, he needs to know that he has just sent the next Aust. drug trafficker to the hangman by his open criticism of the mandatory death penalty regime.

Modern Singapore was built on a siege mentality. Everyone there knows that as a nation Singapore has no right to survive, much less exist as a first world nation. It has NO natural resources.

So for someone from Australia (with ALL the resources) to come along to try to impose his beliefs, the one guarantee is that it will simply harden the Singapore govt's resolve to carry out the sentence and shore up its belief that NOTHING should change, in case others think it blinked.

When backed into a corner how else do you expect the Singapore govt to react?

Having said this, let me re-draw the boundaries for everyone.

Mandatory sentencing is oxymoronic. It basically says Parliament does not trust judges to make correct decisions so a mandatory sentence has to be set in case the 'wrong sentence' is imposed.

True judges make mistakes. But so can Parliament.

The Cabinet of any country has a lot on its plate. There is little time to consider every issue that must be considered. Clemency for one man can only warrant so much cabinet time.

Judges have all the time in the world to decide who should hang and who should be given a life sentence.

Is that not reason enough to allow the judges to decide and not impose a mandatory sentence? Or do we think so poorly of our judges we do not allow them any discretion?

For the record, 2 of my Law School classmates are now on the High Court bench in Singapore. If you had asked me back in Uni who of the lot of us I would have wanted to see on the bench I would have said the 2 there now should be the ones. Both of them are highly principled, ethical persons with a sense of compassion. I know of few others amongst us who I would trust to make the correct decision in the most difficult of cases.

Sadly, Lasry's comments have now set back the debate on mandatory sentence in Singapore.

Howard and Downer has adopted the right approach. It is the ONLY approach with the Singapore Govt. If private, quiet effort does not work then nothing will. Angry outbursts and attempts to shame has been well-proven to be counter-productive in Singapore.

The Singapore govt. will only change when it thinks it is in Singapore's interest to change. It is not in Singapore's interest to allow drug mules to transit to Singapore.

For all of you up in arms over the belief Singapore should not impose the death penalty on an Australian, can I ask if you mind if we move the pushers and the pimps to your street? After all, if your views should be accepted, then so long as the clients of the pushers and pimps are someone else it should be ok, right?

What's that you say? You're afraid some of the vice might leech and your family might get affected?

Do you understand Singapore's views now?

Death for drug traffickers and mandatory sentencing are issues to be decided by Singaporeans and Singaporeans only. Thank you for your opinion but please keep them to yourselves.

If there is to be change these are matters best left to Singaporeans alone to raise, debate and decide on.

Give us your support for change if you like. But don't try to tell force change on Singapore. It isn't going to happen that way.

Posted by: Peter N on November 30, 2005 9:36 AM

I am a Singaporean and I have to say that this saga has irrevocably changed the way I view Australia. My dog is from Australia, and I have been there on vacation more than a few times, and although not all Australians have taken this unreasonable standpoint against a state's fair method of preserving law and order, I hardly think that I would want to return to Australia very soon.

After reading some of the comments here it has been brought to my attention that much of the furore has been stirred up by the media and is possibly a gross misrepresentation of the views of the entire Australian nation. However, reading of how a former prime minister of yours has called Singapore a 'rogue Chinese port' has only made me very angry - it is not the first instance of racism that has been demonstrated by prominent Australians.

When we are discussing controversial issues I believe that while having your own view is something very precious, it is also important to recognize the validity of other people's views and be able to respect them with regard to diversity in values that different people hold.

My personal view of the matter, apart from national sentiment, is that having nothing to do with HUMAN RIGHTS whatsoever, there is no issue about whether it is right or wrong to hang this man. There is no convincing argument to prove that hanging this man is a violation of human rights. He had every right in the world to prevent this execution, simply by abiding by laws that he, as a literate person, would have been made acutely aware of upon entrance into Singapore. In addition, he has admitted his guilt and therefore there is no question of whether this punishment is being meted out to someone who could possibly be innocent. Some people may oppose capital punishment on account that it was desperation and love for his brother that prompted him to commmit the crime. True, but aren't the vast majority of crimes committed out of desperation? That is why criminal activity is more prevalent among poverty stricken areas. What we want to do is to ensure that crime is kept to the minimum, that it is only extreme desperation that drives people to disregard the consequences of the crime. The issue of poverty must also be addressed separately. That said, it is anyone's choice whether to commit a crime or not in view of the consequences, and in this particular case I can see no reason why it would be wrong to treat Van Nguyen in a manner consistent with what is lawful in the country that he chose to enter.

Posted by: esther on November 30, 2005 9:36 AM

Singapore bashing is just a form of trying to take a splinter out of there eye when we have a plank in our own eye. One only has the read the papers here in australia to know what sort of sickos live here. This is thanks to the bleeding heart and do-gooder brigrade that has watered down our laws over the last 30- 40 years or so. Parts of it is becoming comparable to Sodom & Gomorrah. The question we should ask ourselves are the terrorist comparable to the fire and brimstome?

Posted by: Guus on November 30, 2005 9:35 AM

I believe that we are getting over sensitive in this issue. What if this guy was successful in his attempt this time. Would it have been the last then? I dont think so. Once we get used to the easy money it is hard to get away from these temptations. He would have suffered this consequence sooner or later.
The only looser out of this whole situation is his mother and for centuries mothers have put up with foolish sons. we all make mistakes and pay for them one way or the other. He took the extreme step and is now paying the heaviest penalty.
I personally dont support the death sentence but dont see the singapore govt paying for his meals for 25 years either.
The way the Govt here has dealt has been professional. The govt is like running a business.They will never spoil their relations over a drug convict and so they should not.
It is high time for the law to get tough on the drug criminals here as well so the ones who are successful in bringing drug from there should not see Australia as an easy place to get away with.
In this particular case the family should be helped in getting back on with life and the other brother should become a lawful citizen. I wonder if he is also going down the same path. He should learn from his brother's mistake and make sure mum never cries again.

Posted by: Mandy on November 30, 2005 9:34 AM

Another case where in this country we're glorifying criminal elements. Has anyone ever thought what it does to our children? What messages they're taking from all this?
Are we to forget the fact that he has been caught with hard drugs? What about the thousands of children who would have died if he was not discovered? They could be yours or my children. Has anyone ever stopped to think about that?
A mother has to weep, but she should weep for the son that she lost the first time he touched it.

Posted by: Jack on November 30, 2005 9:32 AM

This issue is not whether drug traffickers should be dealt with harshly. They should. The issue is whether a) they should be put to death, and b) whether this should be a mandatory policy.

Mandatory sentencing leaves no room for mitigating factors - factors like the fact that he's helped Australian police learn more about a drug syndicate, like the fact that he's a first-time offender who was trafficking drugs to save his brother, not to further drug addiction around the world.

The death penalty itself doesn't solve anything. It doesn't deter the truly desperate who become the mules, and it doesn't deter the kingpins who don't care if a mule dies.

Those who congratulate Singapore for taking a tough stance on drugs have to ask themselves if mandatory execution is the way to do it, and whether you would support placing the power of life and death in the hands of politicians.

Posted by: Vernie Oliveiro on November 30, 2005 9:31 AM

I've been to Singapore many times. Nguyen's impending execution certainly has not changed my view of Singapore: It is undemocratic, stifling, despotic, narrow-minded, unrepentant, arrogant and blood-thirsty.

There is no freedom on every level. Its people may enjoy a high living standard, but give me a relatively higher rate of crime any day, for I value and respect the sanctity of life above all other considerations.

May Nguyen rest in peace and go to a better place.

Posted by: J on November 30, 2005 9:28 AM

I agree with you scott - boycott them.
No human has a right to kill another - criminal or no criminal. It's a mad world when everyone tries to play God.

Posted by: Betty on November 30, 2005 9:27 AM

Singapore is to be commended for its vigilance in apprehending a drug courier. The conviction of Nguyen Tuong Van for this crime is not at issue here. However,Singapore is to be condemned for its stance on capital punishment which involves the deliberate taking of someone's life. Human life is sacred and not even a $400 fee can justify a person carrying out this activity. If Singapore, and other countries like the United States, continue with capital punishment they are disregarding one of the pillars of acceptable human behaviour - "Thou shalt not kill." Nguyen Tuong Van has done wrong but hanging him, another wrong, does not make for a right outcome. It is possible for Singapore to have a hard line on drugs while dealing with offenders in a way that respects their dignity and humanity. Mercy and compassion is never a soft option but it is at the heart of all great religious traditions.

Posted by: Edward Sianski on November 30, 2005 9:26 AM

To "Dave"

What irony, put Australia in your text instead of Singapore, would be a much more realistic rant considering i lived there and in the EU for 10 years and Aust is the money crazed, keeping up with the joneses capital of the world! Singapore's reputation with important countries will not change. I'm sure if a small Pacific country like Australia boycotts it, it will be like a gust of wind, nothing more! R.I.P Van the drug dealer.

Posted by: Mike on November 30, 2005 9:25 AM

How many times do people have to harp on about how the drugs Van was carrying would have killed people?

It's people who kill people, not drugs.

People CHOOSE to take drugs.

Grow up and be accountable for your actions. It's as ridiculous as blaming fast food places for obesity. No one is forcing you to do anything. You have a choice about what you put in your body! Take responsibility for your actions, don't blame the drug mules.

Demand and supply are the fundamentals of the economy.

Posted by: Chris on November 30, 2005 9:25 AM

I wonder what one will say if is your child that has committed the crime. We all are not infallible and if we knew that trafficking drugs is wrong why then there is drug addicts.We should then know what is right and wrong. Yes, Nguyen has committed a crime that will destroy lives but I think death penalty by hanging is barbaric. My heart goes out to the mother who can't even hug his son for the last time. Is so in humane. I wonder if it is the son of the prime minister Mr.Lee what would he do?

Posted by: sue on November 30, 2005 9:21 AM

Well, we all agreed that Nguyen Tuong Van has committed a very serious crime, but for his age, should have given a second chance. People who has lived their 20's should understand once upon a time we may also did something stupid, it may not be this serious, but could be something with a considerable consequence.

On the other side, if drug kills people, so far not everyone die from drug (I don't mean we should take drug). It all depend on the person, I never take drugs or anywhere near it, although during my high school time, there were few times, my school mate tried to introduce them to me, I refused. So it is really has something to do with the education, family influence. These who committed crime also have their reasons, not everyone wanted to be a criminal, or risking their live for money, because not everyone has a life like the leader in Singapore. Killing is not a solution. And if these officials who insisted the hanging, why not ask them to pull the lever, hope they can sleep well at night.

I strongly oppose death penalty, it is same as murdering someone 'legally', I believe NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT to end another person's life under any circumstance.

I personally don't like Singaporean, majority of them (not all, I also have good friends from Singapore), they are usually arrogant, cannot face lose. I support boycott Singapore, I never travel to Singapore, and never stop over there, even if I have to pay more for the direct flight ticket, and avoid buying anything that is made or from the country (sorry for these who are nice Singaporean people). I do this because they executed some young girls from Hong Kong some years back, although I am in no way related to them, I just don't like the idea of killing. I hope these people have the same feeling as I am will do the same.

I have only learned recently that Singaporean are not allowed to critics their government, and I felt the government also hide certain issues from the people. I will not respect a government that will not allow their own people express their though and have their say. Let's all boycott the country, stop the arrogant bastards. UNIFY IS POWER.

Posted by: David on November 30, 2005 9:21 AM

It doesn't matter how many hand wringers here "boycott" Singapore over their drug crim pin up boy van, it will make no difference. Singapore is a vibrant Asian country trading with the worlds big hitters, sorry, Australia is not a 'big hitter' on the world stage, well maybe in irrelevent sports like AFL, NRL, Cricket.

Cant the lemmings see all this daily van frontpage nonsense is conveniently turning your attention away from actual important matters like sedation laws and work slave I.R changes?. Hope you can all still think of van when your working public holidays and weekends for $5 per hour or locked up for calling Howard 'little johnny'!

Posted by: Scott O on November 30, 2005 9:18 AM

As a son, behind bars in a foreign country, one feels pity and empathy. On a backstreet of an Australian suburb trying to sell or pass on drugs to my daughter - I'd pull the trigger or turn the switch.
Law is black and white not maybe or different for Foreigners versus locals. Turn your wrath at the drug criminals not a country trying to stop the problem.

Posted by: Shane on November 30, 2005 9:18 AM

To all the people making a hero out of this drug trafficker, politicans take note that the overwhelming majority on this feedback line and every other poll support Singapores tough stance on this issue.

Leave it along and get on with Governing this country and not try to Govern Singapore.

Posted by: BT on November 30, 2005 9:14 AM

Compassion Singapore style seems to be symbolised by their magnanimous last meal choice of an economy size KFC chicken and chips or a McDonalds junior cheeseburger.
But it hasn't changed my view of Singapore. I think it's always been a money-obsessed,pseudo-democracy run by nepotistic control freaks with wallets instead of hearts.

Posted by: Dave on November 30, 2005 9:14 AM

Optus is owned in part by the Singapore Government. A simple way to protest is not renew any mobile phone contract with them and say why.

Posted by: Frankie on November 30, 2005 9:13 AM

It has changed my view of the place in that before, I rarely noticed the existence of Singapore and now I have a distinct distaste for it. Mind you, it is more than just this that is causing it - this is just what brought my attention to the place.

And also, America is not equivilent. America allows open, public debate on the death penalty, it doesn't have any mandatory-death-penalty crimes and it is progressing (if haphazardly) towards abolishing it. Singapore doesn't allow public debate on the matter, has mandatory death sentences for certain crimes and has no interest in reconsidering its approach.

All that said, however, I pity Nguyen. He made a very wrong choice and he is paying a very high price. On the other hand, I do not believe this execution will make one iota of difference to the drug problem anywhere in this world. It is pointless and senseless.

Posted by: Kathy on November 30, 2005 9:13 AM

I'm not sure I could care any less if I tried. I have been to Singapore twice, many years ago, and not necessarily willingly as I was just a kid and my parents took me with them. Nothing wrong with it exactly and I distinctly recall the delicious chicken and rice and watermelon juice, but, meh, whatever. It's just a place like any other. Go to Chinatown in the CBD and you'll get all the experience you would have got in Singapore (though I can't vouch for the chicken and rice as I am recently a vegetarian). Methinks the media is making a little too much out of this whole ordeal.

Nguyen was of course sentenced to death in March 2004 but we have only seen media-generated outrage over this situation in the past few months. Where was it before? The fact of the matter is that it wasn't news in March 2004 and didn't become news until we got bored of hearing about Schapelle and "Mung-Lips" Leslie (a woman so ordinary I can't even remember her first name), but were still desperate for scandal and gossip.

Posted by: HRH JPW on November 30, 2005 9:12 AM

I don't hold with drug trafficking or the death penalty but the dirtiest stroke of all over the last few days I thought was the headline, "Howard at cricket while Nguyen hangs"

Posted by: Tony M on November 30, 2005 9:11 AM

Before Australia start criticising other countries' laws, why not look at your judicial system first? No wonder you have criminals like Nguyen spreading your disease to other countries like Singapore.

The man was found guilty and is a criminal and you treat him as though he's some kind of hero in Australia. Think about the victims not the criminals!

Posted by: Norman B. on November 30, 2005 9:11 AM

Singapore's laws and sentences are often decided depending on which side of the bed the judge woke up. There are enough and more examples of such judgements, such that lawyers in Singapore (I inderstand) tell their clients that they do not know which way the case will go and what to expect as punnishment. There was a not to long ago case where a sentence was increased on appeal by the CJ over the limits of the jurisdiction of that court. The increased sentence was allowed by the CJ with an explanation that it can be done. The reasons were ridiculous and I do want to make this a cse issue.

The death penalty per se in my opinion is fine, BUT it should be carried out in very severe cases like murder, gangland killings, mass murder with bombs etc, etc. Carrying 396 gms of drugs is a RIDICULOUSLY frivilous offence. Translating this to doses of drugs is a very silly argument. 1 / 2 doses of experimenting that many do and have done will not really cause harm. (assuming the use was purely a juvenile experiment)

Talk to drug users, people who have been rehabilitated after using / caught with drugs clearly indicates that the users went to find the drugs. Another very important point is that it is the poor, teens and young adults with little education that are the bulk of the victims of drug abuse. The Singapore government does only lip service to get to the root issues and spend money for rehabilitation. After all a very very large money that is spent to develop Singapore comes out of the peoples CPF accounts.

Come on Singapore cabinet, show the world that there is compassion and not the cold treatment it metes out. LEE HSIEN LOONG can alone decide on this compassion. Give Nguven a chance and see for yourself if it works. Use him to be an ambassador for drug use prevention. He will serve a much more useful purpose that parrot like words of the SINGAPORE HIGH COMMISSIONER. Joseph Koh has defintely not been to any grassroot level to know the drug problem in Singapore. He is just broadcasting what the PAP media has asked him to do. He will be without a job if he says otherwise and with little prospects of getting an equivalent job/ Remember Singapore is almost 70% owned by GIC and Temasek and the likes.

Though I am sadden by the whole tragic affair, I doubt if the Singapore Govt will make an exception for a "mule", unlike say, a drug kingpin with vital information or an influential member of the expat community who was caught consuming drugs. (search back 2 years for a cocaine drug bust incident, and how some of the members "managed" the system). It also probably did not help that the public furore over this case made it difficult for the Singapore Govt to back down. (How can any Govt be seen to cave in to external public pressure ?) It would have been better if this was nipped in the bud back in 2002. The repercussions of this case will be resentment towards Singapore in the near-term, however, it sends a clear signal to all the drug couriers around the world that Singapore will be very tough on them.

Posted by: ray on November 30, 2005 9:10 AM

No my perception of Singapore has not changed.

The Allegations of Dr Chee Soon Juan (Singapore opposition leader)have not proven to be true and are suspected to be quite false. Yes Singapore does deal with Burma but so do other countries in the same dealings and those dealings are above board. If there are any underhanded dealings these have not been proven.

Nguyen Tuong Van is not an innocent niave young boy. He knew what he was doing and I suspect this was not his first involvement in drugs. (However that it my opinion)

The extreme penalties of drug couriers in that country do deter the drug culture. It may not in other countries who do not combine it with better infastructure but Singapore has spent alot of money on research, technology and building its country so its citizens do have jobs and for most a certain living standard unlike other countries like who also have harsh drug sentences but in many cases have very low living standard so give their citizens little choice. They are also consistant and I believe this adds alot more weight than countries who are inconsistant with their penalties.

So despite the fact that I do not like the death penalty and would prefer to see solitary confinement for life for certain criminals ie child murderers or rapists or people who torture others. I also do not allow myself to be think that what the Singaporean government is doing does not have the desired effect that they want.

Posted by: Maggie on November 30, 2005 9:08 AM

I think Van's an idiot. This is just Darwinism in action.

Posted by: Bill on November 30, 2005 9:07 AM

To all those pleading for Nguyen's life...would you still be doing this if your son or daughter ended up a junkie as a result of those drugs ending up on the streets?
I THINK NOT!

Posted by: Chris R on November 30, 2005 9:06 AM

The singaporeans are hypocrites.
They sell arms to burma used to repress the people and they deal with burmese drug lords.
The most dangerous drugs in asia are the amphetamines coming out of burma and at least some of the profits are banked in singapore.
Shame singapore,shame.

Posted by: mark l on November 30, 2005 9:06 AM

He is just another drug runner who could not have cared less for the 26000 Aussies he might have hurt in bringing the drugs here and as he knew the penalty, he should hang!

Posted by: W Smits on November 30, 2005 9:06 AM

I'm going to cancel my Optus mobile account and I won't buy from Harvey Norman and I won't fly with Singapore airlines. I don't want my money going to companies who economically align themselves with so-called 1st-world countries who murder people. Same goes for the USA, but sadly, it is an almost futile effort for someone to impose a personal boycott for the simple reason that there are no longer very many truly Australian products and services. We have lost our independence and with it the ability to choose products and services produced by companies who don't wheal and deal with corrupt governments, or use who don't use 'slave' labour to produce goods that we buy.

Posted by: matilda on November 30, 2005 9:05 AM

This has not changed my view of any of these delighful South East Asian countries who seem to execute people for what is possibly the modern day equivalent of stealing a loaf of bread.

I think people should be more understanding of their ways. After all who are we to impose our Imperialist Western ideas on these poor folks.

We should be more sensitive, caring, and look at the real problem in the world. George Bush, America, John Howard, and the neo cons who are turning this lovely planet into a giant turd bowl of hatred and discrimination against people who are no different from the rest of us.

We're all the same. As the song says, "What the world needs now is a great big melting pot, full of"... well you know the rest.

Live and let die I say.

Posted by: obadiah b on November 30, 2005 9:04 AM

State-sponsored killings is horrendous. But if Nguyen's life is spared, how many other new drug mules with distressed families, no previous criminal records and 'financial issues' will have a crack and subsequently pay with their lives? I'm sympathetic, but who would be having the last laugh had he not been caught? Himself some few hundred thousand dollars richer or the 20,000 odd people who are taking the hits?

Posted by: Jezza on November 30, 2005 9:02 AM

In my opinion, S'pore is a family business that purports to be country and a civil society. There is no genuine public debate - it is all stage managed. Parliament is subject to gerrymander, judiciary is not independent, press is controlled, slander laws designed to quell dissent. Practices here reflect state of the art in political control. It is in this environment that the death penalty applied to drug mules came about. It represents the sort of excess that comes about when power is not subject to constraint. Unless Aust civil society kicks up a fuss, the practice will continue.

Posted by: Richard on November 30, 2005 8:59 AM

I cannot believe the attention, effort and resources given to this issue!

Australia can and should learn from Singapore's stance on drugs...As an Australian I feel ashamed to say that I feel safer walking the streets of Singapore than walking the streets of Sydney!

As for the trade sanctions they will never pass through the Senate, and if they do, Australia will be the one that suffers as a result. Why don't we place trade sanctions on the drugs that come into our ports instead!

And Ohh...I would love to know who has paid for Lex Lazry to visit Singapore over 30 times in the last 3 years! I can hazard a guess!

Posted by: Peter on November 30, 2005 8:58 AM

Has anyone checked the Australian Institute of Criminology on the drug related deaths stats recently?

There were almost 8000 Opiate overdose deaths since 1988!! Thats more than 1 death a day and why is that so, its because people like NVT who brings the drugs into this country.

Should we have a one-minute silence for every single person too? We have to thank countries like singapore who stops people like him bringing drugs in!!

Posted by: Ian C.S on November 30, 2005 8:57 AM

May God have mercy and compassion on this young man and forgive his sin.

Posted by: Ken on November 30, 2005 8:57 AM

Why are we so concerned about an individual who would ultimately MAY have contributed to the breakdown of families, the addiction of many and the possible death of some. We need to financially support medical, social and security services in Australia to remedy the effects of these people who receive a lot of money for actively working against Australian values. The death penalty is a horrible institution, but for those people who do not value human life and work to actively destroy it, the only deterrent, is the loss of their lives.

My thoughts are with the family who are to loose a loved one and nothing can take that pain away. However if I had to choose between my childrens health and safety and remove the curse of drug availability and the cowards who prey on them for money, then I need to support the actions of teh Singapore Government.

Posted by: Colin on November 30, 2005 8:56 AM

One must weight the situation of the crime. To spare one's life with justification is worth more than everything the world puts together.

May the God of mercy be with Van

Posted by: Chris on November 30, 2005 8:56 AM

Killing this man is a barbaric act... Just remember that Alcohol is a drug that kills more people and destroys more families worldwide than heroin ever has ...

Posted by: Owen on November 30, 2005 8:56 AM

I wish we had the guts to address our drug problem in the same robust manner as Singapore.
Out of touch dinosaurs like Lex Lasry make us look like a laughing stock - he & his fellow bleeding hearts belong way back in the era of the long discredited permissive society.
I'd be more likely to go to Singapore now knowing that there was one less chance of an encounter with some heroin peddling scum.

Posted by: Don I on November 30, 2005 8:55 AM

Singapore has every right to punish those who commit crimes on their soil, Australia should keep its nose out of other country's laws. Bracks and Hull waste tax payer funds on matters of International issues of federal responsibility to support a serious criminal offender while drug rehab and other services are starved of funds to deliver basic services.

The unions are now saying they will refuse to refuel Singapores planes. Unions should focus on members services and representation and not interfere with Aust foreign policy, this type of action is well outside their charter only goes to support the need for Howards IR changes.

Posted by: BJT on November 30, 2005 8:55 AM

"Has the saga changed the way I view Singapore?"

Yes, for the better, for not caving in to the sickening appeals to clemency. Those people are prompt to save the life of a drug-runner, but the lives of the hundreds of addicts which has already caused and would eventually continue to cause? Not a pip squeak there.

And yes, the saga has changed the way I view Australia too, but not for the better. And in particular the way I view the Churches. The Democrats, the Greens, no surprise there, but the Churches siding with a past and future assassin, be it an assassin by proxy? Charity is easy at the victims' expense, isn't it.

Posted by: J.Guy on November 30, 2005 8:54 AM

Capital punishment is a barbaric practice, but then Nguyen knew the penalty for being caught trafficking (or possessing) drugs. The media is whipping up a frenzy with talk about having a minute's silence out of respect for Nguyen, and John Howard's 'disgraceful' behaviour in attending a cricket match on the day of the hanging. This prisoner had no regard for the potential effect of his cache of heroin on both users and their family members, and should under no circumstance be hailed as some kind of hero. If you don't want to be convicted of the death penalty in Singapore, don't travel there with drugs. Simple.

Posted by: David W on November 30, 2005 8:52 AM

Give me a break. Singapore is making a strong stand against the trafficking of drugs and must be supported for doing so. Our 'limp-wristed', pro-injecting room advocates just encourage it! As for the 'minutes silence' and Ms (wow, I've just had a baby) Stott-despoja's outburst - back to the Student Union office at Adelaide Uni with you.

Posted by: John on November 30, 2005 8:51 AM

I wonder why the Singaporean govt does not consider executing all immediate members of the prisoner's family too? Certainly that would be a greater deterrent to all drug trafficking activities. Maybe we can have the death penalty for chewing gum too, hey, don't you REALLY want to end this menace?

Posted by: scotch on November 30, 2005 8:51 AM

The death penalty sucks, but please this guy was running herion. No other drug on the planet is in the same league, it is the worst of the worst, the tool of vultures. Pot and ecstasy are party drugs, and have never killed anyone by themselves (there have been some deaths related to ecstasy caused by overheating and poisoned pills). Heroin kingpins deserve worse than death. Ok so he's not a kingpin, but it IS singapore.

Posted by: Harry on November 30, 2005 8:51 AM

I have no time for drug dealers as well as drug users but I've had a gut-full of corrupt asian governments who pretend that by hanging some foolish westerners will take the focus off the problem and the drug lords they harbour.
Wake up ... this is the 21st. century. Hanging is a barbaric practice and if you really want to make a difference make these people work in the field of drug re-habilitation and experience first hand the result of their crime.

Posted by: Robert L on November 30, 2005 8:50 AM

Anyone whose view of Singapore changes as a result of this execution is ill-informed - the Singaporeans are being in fact mechanically consistent, and that's what leave Ngyuen with little hope. As a nation we don't seriously advocate the removal of death penalties in other countries, so it's unedifying to see the hysteria surrounding this one case when we could have been lobbying on the issue for years.

Posted by: pete on November 30, 2005 8:49 AM

I have been to Singapore many times and find it to be the most boring country in Asia. The people are largely conservative, and the government's stance seems representative of that. For me, the island reduces down to a standardised assemblage of shopping and office facilities. I don't think that anything has changed with this case except to draw attention in Australia to Singapore's primitive views of crime & punishment (which are mirrored in many US States). An action of economic consequence is probably the only thing that Singapore would take note of...

Posted by: Lee on November 30, 2005 8:47 AM

John: does a man deserve to die for a mistake like this? Can you tell me that this is a more serious crime than murder? We send murders to prison and they are released after a minimal term. Does the punishment fit the crime in this situation?

Posted by: Chris on November 30, 2005 8:46 AM

Every traveller knows the rules when travelling SE Asia. If you try and you get caught, sorry but you must suffer the consequences.

The people of Singapore should not be dragged into this by boycotts or harassment.

There are some laws in Australia that are bad, but they are the laws of the country. The laws of Singapore, whilst you may not agree with them or like them, are there for Singapore's benefit.

The fact is this young man is guilty. Does he deserve to die for that guilt is not the question, the question is of guilt.

Sad but true.

Posted by: Tham B on November 30, 2005 8:46 AM

Look, Singapore is its own country that sets its own laws and punishments. Whilst we dont have to agree with them we have no right to tell them what they should be. If they have a mandatory death penalty then so be it. We should respect them for upholding these laws and standing by their convictions. To my mind its a much better system then ours that lets Rapists walk free with the best wishes of the judge. Its about time we got tougher on criminals like they are. Singapore has my total respect.

Posted by: Andy on November 30, 2005 8:41 AM

In some states in America, Capital Punishment still exists. There have been cases of people using bombs to kill others, and the ring leaders have been executed. Does anyone see capital punishment as wrong in these incidents?
They knew what they were doing; they knew what the cost would be when they got caught. These people ruin so many lives, so why should a drug trafficker be treated differently?

Drugs ruin so many lives, create so many victims. What about the families left behind when a cousin or uncle or sister dies of an overdose? Nguyen knew what the risk was, there are warnings at all Customs and Airports, so Singapore has every right to carry out the Execution.

So the answer is 'No' I don't think the saga has changed the way I view Singapore. And if people reckon there should be boycotts or protests, why don't they start with America first?

Posted by: Stephen on November 30, 2005 8:41 AM

The Singapore Government stopped and is punishing a man who tried to bring 3.5kg of heroin into Australia. I do not understand why we are making a martyr of this criminal. We should be grateful that he was prevented from bringing the drugs here. Any type of Boycott by us towards Singapore is both an insult to them and an act of stupidity by us. This case should have no bearing on our relationship with Singapore.

Posted by: S Panton on November 30, 2005 8:40 AM

Yes Andrew, Singapore is comparable to the USA.

Posted by: Ben C on November 30, 2005 8:38 AM

Drug traffickers know very well what they are doing and the risks involved. Their actions destroy thousands of lives. Any measure to stop them, even if it appears extreme, is worth taking in order to protect the vulnerable, the stupid, the unsuspecting masses.

Posted by: J Chiappalone on November 30, 2005 8:38 AM

Yes, it certainly has changed the way I view the Singapore government (not the people). This is totally barbaric. Next thing they'll be burning witches!!

Posted by: Bunks on November 30, 2005 8:37 AM

Singapore is a hypocritical country, which has no problem dealing with nations such as Burma, that fuel the drug trade.

The Majority of the so called billions in trade with Singapore is not TO Singapore, it is just being trans-shipped there.

Boycott them..... kick their armed forces out of Australia.... let them realise they cannot do as they please..... and get away with it.

Posted by: scott on November 30, 2005 8:36 AM

No, my view on Singapore stays the same. NVT is a criminal and I am amazed that so much attention is given to this guy.

I do feel very sorry for him mum.

Whoever suggested a one minute silence is the biggest bloody idiot.

Posted by: John on November 30, 2005 8:35 AM

Why is the govt. so het up about Singapore executing an Australian when it cosies up to the US which has wanted to do the same? The US also has a bad track record in keeping innocents or misrepresented people off death row.