Regardless, an atheistic belief is still not the actual place to blame fault. It was a political stance and yes it was against religion, but the key
issue is politics, not atheism. No where is it said in the name of atheism. I just totally dislike the mindset that atheists are inherently evil or
more capable of being immoral than the religious minded folks. As I see it, being an atheist makes one have to behave in a more moral standing with
society as atheist rely on society to get by in life. What do the religious have for basing morality upon? Fear of eternal damnation? Please... Fear
of being forever damned in an afterlife isn't a good reason to be moral. If a person should require a crutch of fear to be moral, rather than being
moral for the sake of being moral, then I call into question that persons true sense of morality. Us atheists require no crutch or fear, you do good
as you want good done. Simple as that. Yes, there are bad apples, but it falls upon all of humanity and not particular belief structure is better than
the other on an individual basis.

But lumping a political stance into the same chunk as atheism is just insulting. The politics involved never invoke atheism as a sole purpose or
reason for demolishing any religious faith. Yet, various religious groups, monotheistic in particular *DO* invoke a sole purpose for committing
atrocities against mankind. The two are not the same, atheism never demands anything as it is nothing more than the simple non-belief in any
supernatural deity. Period, nothing more added to what it is.

Yet you resist the idea that atheists are human and can commit attrocity in the name of atheism finding excuses to call the reason for those sorry
events the fault of something else. Pretending that by pointing out that there has been deaths in the name of atheism it is calling all atheists evil.
Which is pure bullcrap and exactly what you do with Christians but yet don't want done to you. Hypocriticalism at it's finest.

No, I am merely pointing out that the examples given are political issue more than atheistic issues. The politics involved don't explicitly invoke
death in the name of a non-belief in God. Whereas the religious minded do invoke the explicit name of God when committing their atrocities. It's
inherently different because your trying to paint the politics as invoking something explicitly when it is not.

Pure hooey. Here, I will provide you with an example based on your response to this statement. "The Crusades were more about money then they were
about Christianity as those in Europe wished to take control of the rich trade routes through the area.".

What I am getting at is you excuse and qualify all violence that has happend in the name of atheism *replace "religion with atheism"* and
claim it is blameless while lumping all blame onto the belief system you view to be your enemy.

Difference here is, the crusades were explicitly said to be in the name of God. The political aspect of Marxism/Communism is not explicitly in the
name of atheism. Atheism is never explicitly invoked in any mannerism for killing anyone. I'm not trying to diminish the actions of a few atheists,
but merely pointing out that atheism is not the sole motivation of any act of violence.

[EDIT TO CLARIFY]

Meaning atheism is never explicitly invoked in the same manner as the atrocities committed by the religious whom explicitly invoke the name of God as
the motivational force for their actions.

Ah, so reason stated for an action at that time is always the correct one? Do you not see what I am getting at here? There have been those that HAVE
KILLED FOR ATHEISM. To remove so called "religion" so that they can replace it with atheism. How is that NOT killing for atheism?

But lumping a political stance into the same chunk as atheism is just insulting. The politics involved never invoke atheism as a sole purpose or
reason for demolishing any religious faith. Yet, various religious groups, monotheistic in particular *DO* invoke a sole purpose for committing
atrocities against mankind. The two are not the same, atheism never demands anything as it is nothing more than the simple non-belief in any
supernatural deity. Period, nothing more added to what it is.

Insulting??? your kidding right?

And get it straight - Christians are not setting suicide bombs, or attacking anyone in the name of their
Savior as public policy- so the atrocities that you refer to constantly need a little pruning - Christians have enough problems working out their own
salvation - we don't need the added burden of false accusations though the bashing continues unabated by folks who are badly informed and dump
everyone into the same bath -

That is why I don't dump atheists in to one bath - I regard them as individuals - some evil whom I have already mentioned and most who are decent
human beings - I find it odd that you cannot be as discriminating -

Also to say that atheism never demands anything is not a true statement - militant atheists like Dawkins are demanding quite a few things - in fact
they would like to see Christians in particular silenced from all public discourse, our free speech revoked and churches dismantled - I'd call that
fairly demanding of those oh so peaceful non-demanding ghandiesque atheists..

Christopher Hitchens ridicules us [in the name of atheism] whenever
he has a public platform to do so - if any other group were publically bashed and spoken out against with this same ferocity, they would be up in
arms demanding something be done about hate speech- But Christians do not demand that Mr. Hitchens be silent - why is that? Because we are taught to
turn the other cheek, to forgive our enemies and to do good to them that hate us - yeah - that's a very atrocity invoking philosophy - omg - run -
they're....turning....the ...other....cheek....!!!!!!!

Show me an example of where Atheism is explicitly invoked for committing the same atrocities of those explicitly invoking the name of God. Don't hand
me BS explicitly political killings and try to pass it off as an act of Atheism.

Once again, since when must something be explicitly invoked for that to be the motivating factor????? Are you not familiar with humanity and his
capacities? Or do you think that human nature stops at your opponents?

Oh please, like demanding that an irrational belief system which is inherently unscientific should be kept out of the scientific method is really an
unreasonable request.

Oh no, we can't just claim God did everything and leave it at that! Those damn atheist are bound for hell!

Your free speech was never revoked, at least if your living in America as I won't claim to know the law of the land in other countries. All religions
in this country are aloud to freely practice their religion, what is not aloud is for congress to establish any one specific religion no matter how
whiny you Christians want to be about it. The country wasn't founded to cater to the childish complaints of Christianity. Boo Freaking Hoo.

Nor is Christianity aloud to preach their dribble in public schools. *Public* being the key word here. If we're to teach religion in public schools,
then we need to teach *ALL*. Besides, even if we did allow religion to be taught, you Christians would still cry about how your particular religion
isn't being upheld as more truer than everyone else, the sole reason you people want it in school to begin with! Again, Boo Freaking Hoo.

Christianity is constantly exclaiming how their oh so prosecuted and ridiculed and denied much of anything. BS, Christianity is the sole reason we
have 'In God we Trust' on our money. We have to swear on the bible in court. Many other examples of how *Christians ARE catered to*. So please, save
the cry baby garbage for someone who will buy it.

Show me an example of where Atheism is explicitly invoked for committing the same atrocities of those explicitly invoking the name of God. Don't hand
me BS explicitly political killings and try to pass it off as an act of Atheism.

BS political killings??? without atheism those killings would have been very hard to justify - atheism as an underpinning of Marxism gave Stalin, Mao
and others their philosophical justification for murder - how explicit does it have to be before you are willing to look at it head on? For
communists, atheism is an absolute requirement for the destruction of the church and its beliefs... Your argument is grasping at straws - Murder is an
equal opportunity employer.....

As a Catholic, I have had to look head on at the record of the church at different points in history....hard to do but necessary for my own integrity
and the renewal of faith and Holy Mother church and the head of the church agrees with this view - now you need to do the same and stop excusing your
brother atheists who have used their philosophy to justify crimes against humanity.... then we can have a more in depth conversation....

Oh please, like demanding that an irrational belief system which is inherently unscientific should be kept out of the scientific method is really an
unreasonable request.

Oh no, we can't just claim God did everything and leave it at that! Those damn atheist are bound for hell!

Your free speech was never revoked, at least if your living in America as I won't claim to know the law of the land in other countries. All religions
in this country are aloud to freely practice their religion, what is not aloud is for congress to establish any one specific religion no matter how
whiny you Christians want to be about it. The country wasn't founded to cater to the childish complaints of Christianity. Boo Freaking Hoo.

Nor is Christianity aloud to preach their dribble in public schools. *Public* being the key word here. If we're to teach religion in public schools,
then we need to teach *ALL*. Besides, even if we did allow religion to be taught, you Christians would still cry about how your particular religion
isn't being upheld as more truer than everyone else, the sole reason you people want it in school to begin with! Again, Boo Freaking Hoo.

Christianity is constantly exclaiming how their oh so prosecuted and ridiculed and denied much of anything. BS, Christianity is the sole reason we
have 'In God we Trust' on our money. We have to swear on the bible in court. Many other examples of how *Christians ARE catered to*. So please, save
the cry baby garbage for someone who will buy it.

Why do you insist on being rude, nasty and generally unpleasant - ??? is this how you treat strangers in general or just those who disagree with you?
conversation seems pointless with you because abuse seems to be the only way you know how to communicate...If that is an example of your atheism at
work then I have to say it has not served you well....

Oh please, like demanding that an irrational belief system which is inherently unscientific should be kept out of the scientific method is really an
unreasonable request.

if thats all Dawkins wanted there would be no argument from me - religion does not equal science but his demands go much further than that.

Oh no, we can't just claim God did everything and leave it at that! Those damn atheist are bound for hell!

Surely you are not quoting me...LOL...whether you are bound for hell is between you and God...

Your free speech was never revoked, at least if your living in America as I won't claim to know the law of the land in other countries. All
religions in this country are aloud to freely practice their religion, what is not aloud is for congress to establish any one specific religion no
matter how whiny you Christians want to be about it. The country wasn't founded to cater to the childish complaints of Christianity. Boo Freaking
Hoo.

Never said my freedom of speech was revoked - just pointed out that some of your comrades call for just that - and if you believe that the church is
not under siege here and around the world you truly and naive and misinformed.

Nor is Christianity aloud to preach their dribble in public schools. *Public* being the key word here. If we're to teach religion in public
schools, then we need to teach *ALL*. Besides, even if we did allow religion to be taught, you Christians would still cry about how your particular
religion isn't being upheld as more truer than everyone else, the sole reason you people want it in school to begin with! Again, Boo Freaking
Hoo.

This doesn't concern me in the slightest - if I want my children to have a religious education I will teach them myself or send them to a religiously
run school - I wouldn't trust a public school to teach children how to cross a street safely let alone trust them with spiritual education - No tears
here

Christianity is constantly exclaiming how their oh so prosecuted and ridiculed and denied much of anything. BS, Christianity is the sole reason
we have 'In God we Trust' on our money. We have to swear on the bible in court. Many other examples of how *Christians ARE catered to*. So please,
save the cry baby garbage for someone who will buy it.

who's crying now

but seriously show me where the Catholic church has "complained" about how they are persecuted here in America? I read the
literature all the time and have yet to see anything on this - oh and feel free to cater to me

that would b a treat but it hasn't happened in my
lifetime

so once again you have not addressed with honesty the issues which have been raised in this thread - so far all we have heard from you is excuses why
atheists just couldn't be bad guys in the name of their chosen philosophy....rubbish - but it begs the question - why is it so important to you that
atheists be seen as somehow more moral than Christians or other religious folks? No group has hegemony on moral righteousness - I wish I could say
that Christians do but the fact is they struggle just like anyone else to make the right choices - the loving choices - I think we have better tools
at our disposal with which to lighten our burdens because of our belief in Jesus Christ but that does not exempt us from the hard decisions and tough
times....and neither are atheists exempt from difficult moral choices - nor are they exempt from having acted wrongly with terrible consequences in
the name of their Godlessness...

I don't know much about Dawkins, so what exactly do you think he is 'demanding'? Keeping religion out from where it doesn't belong is *not* the
same as trying to 'revoke' your freedom to practice your religion. Christianity is *not* the only religion, we simply *can not* swear on thousands
of different religious doctrines before we get to have a trial. Nor does *Christianity* alone need to be taught above all other religions. Nor does it
need to be a part of our government as this country was not founded for that practice. The Christian church is *not* under siege at all, there are
more of you than all the atheists in the world. Religious beliefs is the most dominate thing on this planet, if anything is under siege, it's an
ability to use your brain for a higher capacity to reason and make use of common sense.

You profess the greatness of Jesus, yet he is a false prophet according to your bible. Christianity cites the messianic prophecies, but ignore that he
even fulfilled all of them and in an attempt to justify this they invent the concept of the second coming. Kudos for not listening to God's warning
about false prophets!

BS political killings??? without atheism those killings would have been very hard to justify - atheism as an underpinning of Marxism gave
Stalin, Mao and others their philosophical justification for murder - how explicit does it have to be before you are willing to look at it head on?
For communists, atheism is an absolute requirement for the destruction of the church and its beliefs... Your argument is grasping at straws - Murder
is an equal opportunity employer.....

Then we should equally be against economics and social philosophy as they are equally contribution to those political forms. Heck, anything used by
communism/Marxism should be hated just as equally as atheism if we go by that logic.

now you need to do the same and stop excusing your brother atheists who have used their philosophy to justify crimes against humanity.... then
we can have a more in depth conversation....

I am not excusing what they did, simply pointing out that atheism is not a sole explicit reason in the same light that God is a sole explicit reason.
Being an atheist doesn't inherently make atheism explicitly invoked and certainly not when it's only one of many reasons for a political killing.

atheism is an absolute requirement for the destruction of the church and its beliefs

The *bleep* it is. Atheism makes no requirements at all, it is simply the non-belief in deities. Whatever political actions are committed are not
inherently nor explicitly invoking atheism as atheism by itself does not demand a damn thing. An atheist himself *may* call for the destruction of the
church, but non have explicitly invoked atheism as the sole reason, instead they turned to a political action against the church, which is not
something atheism demands or requires and never has.

[quote[so once again you have not addressed with honesty the issues which have been raised in this thread

I have actually, in fact, it's the second post in this thread. Ah, but you would already know that if you bothered to read the thread from the
beginning and have a better understanding of why I even had to start defending atheism against false claims from Christians. Again, Atheism demands
nothing, simply a non-belief in any deity.

Because if we are to compare atheism to religion, then we need to see atheism explicitly invoked in the same way that monotheistic faiths explicitly
invoke the name of God as a sole motivational factor for the crimes they commit.

I know of no example of where atheism is explicitly invoked as a sole motivational factor in any death in the same light as the invocation of the name
of God.

I simply just do not want to see atheism *a belief in no deity at all with no other baggage attached to it as there is nothing else to it*, being
compared to any religiously irrational and potentially violent belief system. Believing in no God is not a means of demanding any form of destruction.

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