Brian, you are starting to make me a little nervous since there are 2 guys that are wanting to move away from their Emanage systems and go the MS route.
One has a turbo Miata and the other a turbo 240sx._________________Alberto I Correa, Jr.
EFI 101 Graduate 7-16-05
AEM EMS factory trained
www.corrperformance.com

Brian-- Sorry that that was your experience. I checked and as best as I can tell we weren't your supplier on those boards as I don't see any orders under your name or company name... your experience will vary with different suppliers though- and some of the shadier guys don't remain in business. Unfortunately anyone can start buying kits, assembling them, and call themselves a business... and they quickly find out that it's tough to be profitable in this business and they start cutting corners. Some have even gotten themselves listed on the B&G site and then begun having quality issues while remaining listed as a supplier; which is being corrected. All I can say there is a reason we continue to supply around 75-80% of all MS products though, and that's due to quality and support. We're there when people need us, and our product quality is excellent. I won't claim perfection (anyone here perfect?) but we're always there for you. There are 8 of us here, we're not a one-man show. If we can ever assist with anything please let us know._________________Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
http://www.diyautotune.com

Last edited by FoundSoul on Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total

Brian, you are starting to make me a little nervous since there are 2 guys that are wanting to move away from their Emanage systems and go the MS route.
One has a turbo Miata and the other a turbo 240sx.

For the 240sx with the MegaSquirt you'd be looking at the standard wire in setup. We do have an article on our site on that application though.

For the Miata, check out http://www.megasquirtpnp.com -- we've got fully plug-n-play applications for the 90-95. The 90-93 model is out now, the 94-95 model is one week away from release.

Back to what was said before, for a wire in and tune from scratch setup there is a learning curve, similar to any ECU, though in some ways maybe a bit steeper as the MS is able to be adapted to so many different ignition systems that many of those adaptations require a mild change to the hardware configuration (a pull-up resistor on the ignition input is the most common, and is what you'd need for the 240sx, we can do this in house for you, no problem). Some standalones don't attempt to be so adaptable but rather have you adapt to them, by placing their trigger wheel on the engine. MS can go that route too, but is pretty flexible to allow alot of options without going that route. There are times you must though on some unsupported ignition systems.

For the 90-95 Miata with the MegaSquirtPNP it's literally plug it in, run a MAP line, start the car, set base timing, and go. The base map is dialed in excellent for a stock car, and will need to be tuned for boost though it's a simple matter of dialing in VE and Spark tables. Check out MiataTurbo.net for several happy users...

For either route-- a properly assembled and installed system is rock solid reliable, every time. I've never once been left stranded anywhere by any of my MS'd cars, and I've taken them on 1000+ miles trips without a hint of worry about it. It really comes down to three things:

1) Who built it

2) Who installed it

3) Who tuned it

The only difference here over any other ECU is you can go buy it from some high school kid who's built 2 of them before so he's decided to go into business and doesn't know a capacitor from a floor jack. I'm all about this kid using this project to learn about electronics and EFI. But for goodness sakes... buy your ECU from a pro . (Brian, I know you stated you did buy from a known vendor, this is just an example as this scenario happens alot when people try to save $30 on ebay only to find zero quality and zero support, and MS gets a bad name on those transactions-- we work hard to provide quality products and support so that irks me _________________Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
http://www.diyautotune.com

Last edited by FoundSoul on Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total

FoundSoul thanks for the clarifications and really appreciate you take the time to explain your point of view clearly and precisely._________________Alberto I Correa, Jr.
EFI 101 Graduate 7-16-05
AEM EMS factory trained
www.corrperformance.com

I am not totally trashing MS, I in fact like it, I bought one and assembled it and will put it on my Eclipse. Although I would not put one on a customer's can again. Too much time and too many headaches.

Hey you gotta agree the board, connections and most everything about the ECU is not exactly rugged. I saw one come in to the shop where the guy was tack welding a panel on his car and it burnt out some circuits on the board. I have never had this happen to any of the other ECUs around here. I know leaving the ECU in the car isn't the best idea but my FAST board has never burnt._________________Brian Macy
TheEFIStore.com
Product, Support and Tuning

I didn't really feel like you were trashing anything, just wanted to clear the air a bit as there is not alot of MegaSquirt related discussion on this site and wanted to make sure people didn't get the wrong idea. I truly feel it's a great system, biased as people may have to consider me to be. The learning curve is a bit steeper, but it does just that, it makes sure people learn what they are doing.

If you're doing installs as a shop, it probably will take you more time unless you've pioneered a similar installation before and you're familiar with it. There are plug-n-play systems, or systems with detailed vehicle specific documentation that you can use, and from your perspective the customer is paying the extra cost for the system so why not? With the PNP systems out there from AEM and such you get base maps that even sort out many of the nuisance details and let you get straight to dialing in the base maps so you can send the customer on his way--

Your first wire-in MS will take some time. It helps to be handy with a soldering iron if you need/want to change/add a feature. The feature list is huge though and growing every day. Get to know the MS and it can be a good friend-- get to know it well and I promise you that you can give your customers all of the performance they are expecting without all of the cost they are used to, and it won't take you any longer than it does with any other wire in systems. It takes a little investment, but you will know EFI better than many, including those that have just followed the quick install guides on more expensive ECUs many times. In this way it kindof comes down to priorities and if you want to put a bit of time into it to get that payoff. I don't expect everyone to by any means.... and that's totally cool.

----

Our new MegaSquirtPNP systems... you've really gotta check these out. Anybody can install them in less than an hour and drive away. An experienced tech it might take 20-30 minutes. The base maps are solid (tuned by myself on a DynaPack 4000) and take 95% of the work out of the tuning. Mild fine tuning for car to car variance is suggested on N/A cars, and of course some tuning will be needed for boosted cars but as any of you know that goes fairly quick when the little things (idle control, cold start, etc) are pre-sorted by us so you don't really even have to muck with them.

Notorious VR-- on the Multicell edit thing, I just bumped into this thread and with my 8 month old and 2 year old in my lap I threw together a little video for you in the last few minutes, so don't expect much in the way of production, but it should do the trick .

Although I must admit, I'm not an MS user, but a VEMS user... so I just downloaded the P1 version of MT, and w/o any configuration at all, I just plugged in a few numbers into the VW table (8x8) and tried it.

Could it be that it only works in conjunction with the 16x14 table like in your vid (which I'm guessing is a part of the extra code?)

Notorious VR-- on the Multicell edit thing, I just bumped into this thread and with my 8 month old and 2 year old in my lap I threw together a little video for you in the last few minutes, so don't expect much in the way of production, but it should do the trick .

Although I must admit, I'm not an MS user, but a VEMS user... so I just downloaded the P1 version of MT, and w/o any configuration at all, I just plugged in a few numbers into the VW table (8x8) and tried it.

Could it be that it only works in conjunction with the 16x14 table like in your vid (which I'm guessing is a part of the extra code?)

There's a package floating around out there that is labeled 'P1' but it has the wrong executable in it, and doesn't give you the updated features. I just put together a package that we'll manage that is 225 P1, and comes with all the current firmwares for various flavors of MS hardware as well. This should make life a bit easier for people...

Brian-- Sorry that that was your experience. If we can ever assist with anything please let us know.

Can you help with the set up of the Mega Tune Software? The last version I tried made me walk away from the stuff. Pop up after pop us stating file not found error.

Before loading the one size fits all software there was no problems whatso ever. My MS1 installs were great. MSNS was a dismal failure. Program a cell and nothing happed to the fueling. Load it with the dyno to a different rpm or TP and wow there's the fueling change! The damn stuff was changing the fueling in a different location in the EPROM relative to the software.

MSII worked well in my Mini-MS (I think that's now defunct) and worked well with the original (again please forgive me with the revisions....it's been so long) multi processor software. Later software versions No workie.

Testing stuff on Linux because the software guy is too smart to use windows XP like the rest of us dummies I believe lead to lack of experience with the error that would appear in windows. No one seemed to have been down the same path as me. No one could figure out why the new software would not work in my situation.

reality is - it was impossible for me to use so I stopped dealing with it and went back to my old laptop - old software and old processors.

I've been gone so long I'm afraid it would take me a year to catch up. Does the latest revision of software actually work? Does MSNS actually work with the new software? Has Eric started testing in Windows?

If that's been fixed, great. If not, I'll stick with my old stuff (that admittedly works well) and tell folks to stay away from the muddle of of one size fits all (one size fits none) software that makes MS unusable.

Please don't think I'm some dunmmy either. My Buell was one of the early success stories from the first group buy. My pro-stock Harley system was also a success story and was listed on the story page (not sure if they are there anymore). I made them work - but in my opinion the later stuff became junk.

I'm not sure what the last version you used would have been... and I can only theorize as to what messages you might have seen and what the cause may have been, but I'll be glad to help you get up and going.

The package I posted above will probably help alot of people sort 99% of this out for the firmware versions I included, and I can add more if they make sense (I'm not normally going to add support for beta/alpha versions, but only release code).

If I had to guess what error messages you may have seen, I'd guess it was a firmware/ini mismatch. Meaning that it's possible the CPU you were using had a version of the MS1 Extra firmware loaded that MegaTune didn't know how to interact with because the corresponding .ini file had not been placed in MegaTune's folders to allow it to talk to that firmware properly.

What it comes down to technically is this-- every time there is a new firmware version, it comes with a new .ini file as well. MegaTune needs this .ini file to talk to that new firmware.

What I've done in the above linked package to simplify this is I've gotten all of the current 'release' firmwares and their corresponding .ini files, put them into a single package, properly setup MegaTune to use them, and when using this package now when you start MegaTune you will get prompted for which firmware you are running and you can choose.

I can add new revisions/remove old as time goes by to keep this up to date. For instance MS2 Extra is in development and they actually do have release code though I haven't put it in this package just yet, I will look into adding this soon.

--

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the MegaTune Configurator or not, but take a look in there as well. It's my guess this may have been the source of the one issue you mentioned where it seems that you had to tune in a different cell of the map than where it effected. There are a small number of settings that you configure both for display purposes, and for actual calculation purposes. One in the Configurator, one in MegaTune. Configure one for say a 1bar MAP sensor, and the other for a 2.5 bar MAP sensor, and when tuning you're going to have the exact symptom you saw._________________Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
http://www.diyautotune.com

I would just like to say, I'm running ms2 with the v3 board in my vw with a formerly MFI engine....

This setup was a lot of fun to build, I am kind of a dummy for putting it on my daily... I would like to report that I ran it in my VW jetta in -50 c weather for my daily driver ... and i sat idling in traffic for 3 hours straight in a blizzard with -40 temps with a stuck open tstat and barely any interior heat... and i got home without a hitch.. it seems to be fairly reliable if you take the time to do it properly.

CMON though guys, this is a diy assembly radioshack kit practically, we can't expect too much right?

Something neat about soldering together a board, putting it in your car and driving it around.. lol go on youtube or google video and find that kid with the neon getting his car to start for the first time...pretty funny..

While it would be easy for me to say 'nah keep your expectations low'... I've really never seen any reason you should need to. This thing rocks properly assembled, installed, and tuned. I'd put it up against systems costing several times as much on equivalent cars, no problem. I know I've already mentioned the MSPNP systems... but we got 255whp and 227wtq on a bone stock internal 1.6l Miata and Greddy turbo kit/FMIC with this unit at about 14psi. Driveability? The car drives like a dream, just a crazy fast dream that you'd probably wake up from really quickly wanting to go for a spin. I've not seen any other manufacturer post numbers 'quite' that high for a stock Miata internal'd 1.6 with turbo. Granted one of their numbers is in the range of couple percent so it's immaterial, but bottom line is even factoring in inconsistency in dyno readings we're right there with them and our system costs a fraction of the price.

If you build it and tune it yourself, your mileage may vary... You absolutely can have the same results I have. It's the same underlying hardware and software. I've just tuned it for the car._________________Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
http://www.diyautotune.com

Meaning that it's possible the CPU you were using had a version of the MS1 Extra firmware loaded that MegaTune didn't know how to interact with because the corresponding .ini file had not been placed in MegaTune's folders to allow it to talk to that firmware properly.

What it comes down to technically is this-- every time there is a new firmware version, it comes with a new .ini file as well. MegaTune needs this .ini file to talk to that new firmware.

Downloaded everything for the MSnE including the ini. according to instructions.

FoundSoul wrote:

What I've done in the above linked package to simplify this is I've gotten all of the current 'release' firmwares and their corresponding .ini files, put them into a single package, properly setup MegaTune to use them, and when using this package now when you start MegaTune you will get prompted for which firmware you are running and you can choose.

FoundSoul wrote:

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the MegaTune Configurator or not, but take a look in there as well. It's my guess this may have been the source of the one issue you mentioned where it seems that you had to tune in a different cell of the map than where it effected. There are a small number of settings that you configure both for display purposes, and for actual calculation purposes. One in the Configurator, one in MegaTune. Configure one for say a 1bar MAP sensor, and the other for a 2.5 bar MAP sensor, and when tuning you're going to have the exact symptom you saw.

Yup. familiar with configurator. I even went so far as to wipe all the old MT stuff off my computer in my dynoroom and start from scratch with all the downloads. Also, I was/am running alpha-n so even though I'm an idiot it's easy to see 5000 rpm at 50% throttle bin. The fact that the adjustment takes place in the 2000 rpm & 10% throttle bin is what is messed up. 5500 rpm at 50% throttle adjusted some other bin....can't recall but it was like 20% TPS and 3200. Just random places in the map. Considering all my versions run alpha-n it would be strange for me to screw up the map sensor (it was a two bar on that last board ? used for baro correction only)

Oh yeah, cranking and after start...couldn't take out enough fuel......and yes I actually know where to select injector size. etc. Just rubbish in that last go round of releases I used.

I'd be interested in seeing this packaged software that you speak of, however. Perhaps there have been improvements in making the stuff run on Windows....I laughed hysterically when Eric said he never tested on Windows and perhaps that was my issue. I think that is when I said it was fun to tinker with, but not a real EFI system and left my old MS systems as they were and moved on to other aftermarket systems with mature software when working later EFI projects.

I'll check out your site and see what's there.

I just think folks need to understand that even those of us who were there at the start and built some good runners and had enough skill to edit Bruce's and Al's code to make our own personal projects run w/un-tried features found the later stuff to be a rat's nest of software. All the help on the board(s) was not able to solve the issues with the later versions of Megatune for me.

Again, I'll check out your site. I'm open to being shown that the bugs are fixed and that one can actually load the stuff and get it to tune correctly. It would be nice, as I actually would like to see the stuff work well enough to interest me again.

After reading my own post - I know it sounds like sour grapes - but hey -that's just the fact of how the stuff went for me. I have nothing to gain or lose from any future success or failure of the MS. Hopefully the stuff has improved. It would be nice to see.

Most of the cars I've tuned have been speed density, though I've done some Hybrid Alpha-N cars with ITBs on both the MS1 and MS2 (Extra codes in both cases) and never had this type of issue. I guess I would have had to have been there to see what was going on...

Eric has definitely been testing on Windows That really must have been a long time ago...

Let me know how things go for you-- With the success I continue to have time after time, If you give it a shot I can't imagine you experiencing anything else..._________________Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
http://www.diyautotune.com

Meaning that it's possible the CPU you were using had a version of the MS1 Extra firmware loaded that MegaTune didn't know how to interact with because the corresponding .ini file had not been placed in MegaTune's folders to allow it to talk to that firmware properly.

What it comes down to technically is this-- every time there is a new firmware version, it comes with a new .ini file as well. MegaTune needs this .ini file to talk to that new firmware.

Downloaded everything for the MSnE including the ini. according to instructions.

FoundSoul wrote:

What I've done in the above linked package to simplify this is I've gotten all of the current 'release' firmwares and their corresponding .ini files, put them into a single package, properly setup MegaTune to use them, and when using this package now when you start MegaTune you will get prompted for which firmware you are running and you can choose.

FoundSoul wrote:

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the MegaTune Configurator or not, but take a look in there as well. It's my guess this may have been the source of the one issue you mentioned where it seems that you had to tune in a different cell of the map than where it effected. There are a small number of settings that you configure both for display purposes, and for actual calculation purposes. One in the Configurator, one in MegaTune. Configure one for say a 1bar MAP sensor, and the other for a 2.5 bar MAP sensor, and when tuning you're going to have the exact symptom you saw.

Yup. familiar with configurator. I even went so far as to wipe all the old MT stuff off my computer in my dynoroom and start from scratch with all the downloads. Also, I was/am running alpha-n so even though I'm an idiot it's easy to see 5000 rpm at 50% throttle bin. The fact that the adjustment takes place in the 2000 rpm & 10% throttle bin is what is messed up. 5500 rpm at 50% throttle adjusted some other bin....can't recall but it was like 20% TPS and 3200. Just random places in the map. Considering all my versions run alpha-n it would be strange for me to screw up the map sensor (it was a two bar on that last board ? used for baro correction only)

Oh yeah, cranking and after start...couldn't take out enough fuel......and yes I actually know where to select injector size. etc. Just rubbish in that last go round of releases I used.

I'd be interested in seeing this packaged software that you speak of, however. Perhaps there have been improvements in making the stuff run on Windows....I laughed hysterically when Eric said he never tested on Windows and perhaps that was my issue. I think that is when I said it was fun to tinker with, but not a real EFI system and left my old MS systems as they were and moved on to other aftermarket systems with mature software when working later EFI projects.

I'll check out your site and see what's there.

I just think folks need to understand that even those of us who were there at the start and built some good runners and had enough skill to edit Bruce's and Al's code to make our own personal projects run w/un-tried features found the later stuff to be a rat's nest of software. All the help on the board(s) was not able to solve the issues with the later versions of Megatune for me.

Again, I'll check out your site. I'm open to being shown that the bugs are fixed and that one can actually load the stuff and get it to tune correctly. It would be nice, as I actually would like to see the stuff work well enough to interest me again.

After reading my own post - I know it sounds like sour grapes - but hey -that's just the fact of how the stuff went for me. I have nothing to gain or lose from any future success or failure of the MS. Hopefully the stuff has improved. It would be nice to see.

Hate to say it, but your problems are something you were doing wrong. Jerry's being more than friendly - but the problems you describe are user errors, not software bugs.

When you tune enough standalones over a few years, you'll understand that Megasquirt has fewer bugs than the major brands you spend a lot more money on. After 200+ EMS installations, roughly 130 of them megasquirt, my customers are happy and have no problems - and are setting records at bonneville, major national events, etc. Perhaps megasquirt and higher tech EMS just isn't your thing?

I've installed a ton of different systems and have an EE degree and also quite a bit of software experience. Starting looking at the MS a few months back, both online and up close and personal. Fooled around with the software some helping others tune mostly. I hate to say it because I really like the concept of DIY, but this thing is crap. Please don't be offended but the amount of hours people are putting into this is not worth it when it's all said and done. If you like spending hours researching some obscure setting knock yourself out, but for me no-thank you and that's coming from someone who does this type of stuff for a living. From what I've seen over 50% of the kits are thrown in a junk drawer by the end of the 1st year. And that's being generous. What's sad is most of these people don't speak up because they know they'll get bashed by those who live MS 24/7 if not the vendors themselves. If you look at the boards you'll notice that 95% of the people praising them 1. don't actually have a well running MS car. or 2. are vendors. Just 2 cents. I'm sure I'll be flamed, but go out and do your own research. Don't just buy into all the hype unless your more interested in MS being your hobby instead of your car.

DIY, I don't mean to take away from your business. From what I've seen DIY has the best reputation by far and I did notice that you guys help people out even when they don't buy from you. Of course, you guys are going to be able to get a MS to run damn well. Actually, I would say a lot of the people who buy them could get them running decent with enough time and effort. So anyway you can try to discredit me with some flippant remark, but anyone who visits the various boards is going to see the same pattern repeated. People trying to fix all the little issues and saying yeah it runs pretty good, but I have this "one" problem. About me being another competing vendor No, I'm in the aerospace industry and don't have ties to any company. All of my installs have been for myself and a couple of my friends on our personal projects. Again, the pattern of the vendors being the most vocal speaks volumes. Sorry I'm bashing your lifeblood as I know you guys have awesome customer service.

BTW, I know that my low post count makes this suspicious but the thread title just caught my eye as I really hate the software. Anyway, one post doesn't mean jack in the www anyway so for those reading do your own research and make your own decisions. If you choose MS or whatever it makes no difference to me.

I went out to support Gary and did some fine-tuning on the salt and occasionally a bit of rerouting of wiring maybe, but I've never done any of the initial install work or initial tuning work for any of these guys otherwise. Just provided some parts.

Remark wasn't meant as a personal attack on you man, but as with anything the people you see on the web asking for help are the people that had issues or are trying to do something unique. The other thing you have to consider is MS attracts people to standalone EMS that otherwise never would have gotten into it, so they have some learning curve to deal with and that's awesome, you just have to understand those people will have more questions. The people that are silent are driving their cars. With several thousand kits out there, the small number of issues on the forums are actually pretty good. As as you stated customer service is a big deal for us - we work with people to make sure every customer is happy as best as humanly possible..._________________Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
http://www.diyautotune.com