Eva Marie wrote:It's impossible to maintain critical distance when you're faced with this avalanche every time you'd try to present a negative opinion on TR.

Perhaps the situation you're referring to (behind your hyperbole) should be expected, considering that this is a Twin Peaks/David Lynch fan forum? In fact I'm not sure there's a place on the entire internet where yours and others' 'profoundly disappointed' sentiments, especially after all these weeks/months, seem more ill-placed. Virtually every single place I've seen/heard the new season discussed has had more positive energy about it than this, a Twin Peaks/Lynch forum. There's been so much enthusiasm surrounding the new season, such open-mindedness, such warmth to its aims. But coming here, one would never know it.

Those of you still coming here to (do little or nothing but) complain about the new season--why? If it was me, I'd let the people who did enjoy it have their fun. That would seem to be the more high-minded option. At worst, some of the posts in this thread are motivated by bitterness and/or out-right mean-spiritedness, and in their self-absorption and determination for others to get as little enjoyment out of something as they have, do not warrant sincere engagement. There is of course a place for constructive criticism--but this is something else.

And why do you come to this thread? Do you feel endangered by one measly thread on this entire forum devoted to the season's woes and weaknesses? No one's forcing you to come here and read the posts that spoil your fun with the new series, so why do it? As I see it, folks here are mostly keeping to their own thread, they don't venture onto other threads and lecture those who enjoyed the show for what it was (and wasn't) and try to influence their opinion - so who's really bothering who here? Wanna talk about mean-spiritedness, bitterness, negative energy and self-absorption? How about Lynch's recent statement that Season 2 sucked?

Agent Earle wrote:Do you feel endangered by one measly thread on this entire forum devoted to the season's woes and weaknesses?

Don't be obtuse; it's obviously dispiriting to see this thread almost every time one clicks on this forum.

What's dispiriting and obvious is in the eye of the beholder. To me, for instance, it's dispiriting to see 3456 other threads unreservedly celebrating S 3's non-sense and the creators' self-indulgent shenanigans every time I click on this forum. So what? I don't force you to deal with my traumas or change the way you feel about the series or stop posting about it just because I'm bitter that TP as I knew it went to shit. Let's just agree to let each other be. And I insist, the only one who can be accused of mean-spiritedness for the way he's been treating the TP legacy is The Man himself.

Eva Marie wrote:It's impossible to maintain critical distance when you're faced with this avalanche every time you'd try to present a negative opinion on TR.

Perhaps the situation you're referring to (behind your hyperbole) should be expected, considering that this is a Twin Peaks/David Lynch fan forum? In fact I'm not sure there's a place on the entire internet where yours and others' 'profoundly disappointed' sentiments, especially after all these weeks/months, seem more ill-placed. Virtually every single place I've seen/heard the new season discussed has had more positive energy about it than this, a Twin Peaks/Lynch forum. There's been so much enthusiasm surrounding the new season, such open-mindedness, such warmth to its aims. But coming here, one would never know it.

Those of you still coming here to (do little or nothing but) complain about the new season--why? If it was me, I'd let the people who did enjoy it have their fun. That would seem to be the more high-minded option. At worst, some of the posts in this thread are motivated by bitterness and/or out-right mean-spiritedness, and in their self-absorption and determination for others to get as little enjoyment out of something as they have, do not warrant sincere engagement. There is of course a place for constructive criticism--but this is something else.

EXACTLY

this thread is funny as fuck. they think WE'VE lost the plot.... well yeah mate you should have xoxo

Eva Marie wrote: It's impossible to maintain critical distance when you're faced with this avalanche every time you'd try to present a negative opinion on TR.

I disagree, if someone replies to a criticism of TP:TR being weak, boring, pointless, dull, poorly acted, nonsensical with 'David Lynch is God', then it's just that they've just lost the ability to counter the criticism. Arguing back with 'David Lynch is a fraud' (or whatever) is a distraction from talking about the work, and the profoundly disappointing experience of watching it.

Oh trust me - I've tried my darnest to counter fanboy arguments with critically distant analysis over and over again on Welcome to Twin Peaks. I put so much time and passion into them for several weeks, disproved every accusation of being a mindless sheep who just doesn't appreciate art and pulled things apart on a molecular level. Once my opponents ran out of arguments they almost always defaulted to "Go away you hater! It's all subjective! Lynch isn't for everyone!".

Eventually I just lost patience and found this thread. Of course, by this point I'd turned from civilised feelings of disappointment while still happy to discuss things with fans TO absolute piss-taking rage because of not being taken seriously for so long. This seems to be a universal experience on this thread.

What really takes the cake is that during all those fruitless arguments I discovered that I know a good deal more about Lynch, the international arthouse scene and film/TV academia than most of the staunch TR defenders I'd engaged with. And I was the one accused of "not getting Lynch and arthouse" ...

mtl wrote:If it was me, I'd let the people who did enjoy it have their fun. That would seem to be the more high-minded option. At worst, some of the posts in this thread are motivated by bitterness and/or out-right mean-spiritedness, and in their self-absorption and determination for others to get as little enjoyment out of something as they have, do not warrant sincere engagement. There is of course a place for constructive criticism--but this is something else.

How noble of you 99% of Internet discussions during TR's airings were dedicated to 'people having fun' by shouting down all criticism aggressively while constantly moving the goal-poasts to describe why TR's apparently so great (like with the nostalgic ep. 16 after having used 'nostalgia' as an insult for 15 eps prior!!!). Frankly, I have never seen anything like it with a movie or TV show ever. Even on the craziest IMDb boards back in the day no one tried to shut up posters with negative opinions - they would just throw really emotional insults at worst.

For some reason fans of TR just cannot live and let live. They take every criticism (no matter how well substantiated) as a deep personal insult. Like the poster above, they get upset by merely SEEING the title of this thread when they enter the forum.

"in their self-absorption and determination for others to get as little enjoyment out of something as they have, do not warrant sincere engagement. There is of course a place for constructive criticism--but this is something else."

Would you kindly point me to such a place? I've found zero threads filled with constructive criticism beyond this one after scouring the web quite thoroughly. Where have you personally sincerely engaged with a critic of TR or Lynch from a neutral position? Give us an example.

Personally, I have never been so enraged by negative opinions on any piece of media I love that I would try to shut those people up and accuse them of compromising my enjoyment. It's incredibly ironic that the poster was saying exactly that WHILE advocating for high ground!! In fact, I tend to read the bad reviews on Rotten Tomatoes first to get a different perspective.

Agent Earle wrote:Do you feel endangered by one measly thread on this entire forum devoted to the season's woes and weaknesses?

Don't be obtuse; it's obviously dispiriting to see this thread almost every time one clicks on this forum.

I 100% disagree. As a fan of Lynch and Twin Peaks who has been profoundly disappointed by The Return. I find this thread extremely heartening. The attempts at intertextual vandalism being committed against the original series by TR have been profound on multiple levels across craft, plot and subtext. Having a place where people acknowledge the failings for what they are and unpick some of the damage seems only right and proper.

Eva Marie wrote:For some reason fans of TR just cannot live and let live.

Sorry, I don't really see the need to have this us-and-them argument. Yes, people have different opinions, but pointing the finger of blame or having a meta-discussion about how those people who report their experiences of watching TR on the internet one way are bad folk, and people who report another way are good folk isn't going to change anything and is a distraction from the work. Sure, internet discussion can be frustrating at times, but that's inevitable, don't let it get you down.

This Twin Peaks The Return was beyond incredible. I for one loved how the hero Dale Cooper turned into a vegetable for about 16 long lasting hours and especially its climax when he literally showed how to connect the dots to all these die hard fans all over the world.

At the very end not only did the hero die, no he did not even exist at all. His name was Richard.

I am sure that I will watch and re-watch this Twin Peaks The Return over and over again for the rest of my days and I will write about its superbness forever more.

The recipe for art, according Mark Rothko:In 1958 Rothko gave a talk about "The recipe of a work of art - its ingredients - how to make it - the formula." Pretty interesting I think. It's a lot to consider when creating.

1. There must be a clear preoccupation with death - intimations of mortality.

2. Sensuality. Our basis of being concrete about the world. It is a lustful relationship to things that exist.

3. Tension. Either conflict or curbed desire.

4. Irony.

5. Wit and play.

6. The ephemeral and chance.

7. Hope. 10% to make the tragic concept more endurable.

I measure these ingredients very carefully when I paint a picture. It is always the form that follows these elements and the picture results from the proportions of these elements." (Wikipedia)

Eva Marie wrote:It's impossible to maintain critical distance when you're faced with this avalanche every time you'd try to present a negative opinion on TR.

Perhaps the situation you're referring to (behind your hyperbole) should be expected, considering that this is a Twin Peaks/David Lynch fan forum? In fact I'm not sure there's a place on the entire internet where yours and others' 'profoundly disappointed' sentiments, especially after all these weeks/months, seem more ill-placed. Virtually every single place I've seen/heard the new season discussed has had more positive energy about it than this, a Twin Peaks/Lynch forum. There's been so much enthusiasm surrounding the new season, such open-mindedness, such warmth to its aims. But coming here, one would never know it.

Those of you still coming here to (do little or nothing but) complain about the new season--why? If it was me, I'd let the people who did enjoy it have their fun. That would seem to be the more high-minded option. At worst, some of the posts in this thread are motivated by bitterness and/or out-right mean-spiritedness, and in their self-absorption and determination for others to get as little enjoyment out of something as they have, do not warrant sincere engagement. There is of course a place for constructive criticism--but this is something else.

EXACTLY

this thread is funny as fuck. they think WE'VE lost the plot.... well yeah mate you should have xoxo

over 1000 pages of this thread, they'll still think thye've "WON"

What's to be won? Oh, whoopee, that series I was eagerly anticipating turned out to be a big let down!

Muffin and mtl, I can't believe this still has to be pointed out, but this is one little thread in a big World Wide Web for people to express disappointment in TPTR. If it gets you down to even see the thread title in amongst all the other threads praising the series to the skies, you need to get a grip on your head.

Now go away, enjoy loving the series elsewhere and let us stew in peace. You're just being rude.

Eva Marie wrote: How noble of you 99% of Internet discussions during TR's airings were dedicated to 'people having fun' by shouting down all criticism aggressively while constantly moving the goal-poasts to describe why TR's apparently so great (like with the nostalgic ep. 16 after having used 'nostalgia' as an insult for 15 eps prior!!!). Frankly, I have never seen anything like it with a movie or TV show ever.

Ditto, but this isn't a complaint on my part. The fanboy reaction to The Return was fascinating, the clearest case of artistic Emperor's New Clothes I've witnessed. If Lynch retains any genius it's in his ability to beguile fans and critics into granting leeway they'd grant no other artist, and yeah, the golly-jeepers act is key. "But wait, he can't be just another vicious old chauvinist because he kinda speaks and gawps innocently like Jimmy Stewart."

Around week 5 or so I got over the disappointment of what this show was doing to Twin Peaks' and FWWM's legacy and began to find it compelling for the bizarre fan and critics' response, and also for the dawning realisation that it was one of the worst things ever aired, the kind of show that even without any TP connection I'd have been pestering friends to watch. These are the things that kept me watching and coming to threads like this, as well as the refresher course all this provided in what really matters in works of art. Plus, being really honest, it was quite exhilarating to actually hate a TV show -- really despise it the way you'd despise certain bands in your teenage years. Is that healthy? I'm not sure, but it certainly was fun to join in group emails that were a veritable Manhattan Project of Lynch and TR pisstakes, way too extreme to be posted here. And as I'm going to get to use these emails and my posts here in another project, it wasn't the waste of time it sometimes seemed.

BTW just as it's interesting how many English, Scots and Irish this thread featured, relatively speaking, the same is true of the % of female posters. Those who fall for Lynch's act are mainly men. Funny, that.

Would you still be saying that if the exact same show had been made by Tarantino?

This Twin Peaks The Return was beyond incredible. I for one loved how the hero Dale Cooper turned into a vegetable for about 16 long lasting hours and especially its climax when he literally showed how to connect the dots to all these die hard fans all over the world.

At the very end not only did the hero die, no he did not even exist at all. His name was Richard.

I am sure that I will watch and re-watch this Twin Peaks The Return over and over again for the rest of my days and I will write about its superbness forever more.

"Thank you, Mr David. Thank you, thank you, thank you."

[not one millimeter of irony intended, just saying]

It's always nice to know we are in such mature company on here, irony or not. Life has opposites. It has people who like things and people who don't. I don't necessarily agree with everything on here that has been said against the show or the way it has been said but I also don't agree with what has been said pretty much, positively about the show though have greatly enjoyed reading posts in this thread by fans like Mr Reindeer who is always incredibly respectful to all, which is appreciated. I am though mature enough to say that the last two episodes did intrigue me and I only wish the rest of the the 16 episodes had been more like it. If you are going to post in this thread Xavi a modicum of balance and maturity would be appreciated, unless you are 13 years of age then in which case, you have a few more years to go before reaching the intellectual brevity required for the majority of this thread.