I wish the "casuals" could do that when faced with challenging content... :S

you say that with such venom... do you think you and the rest of your hardcore cadre could have kept the game afloat? It's apparent Blizzard didn't think you could, as they started trying to reach out to the 'casuals'. Instead of being so hateful to them, you should thank them, why you ask, because without them you wouldn't have decent sized raids to run.

--- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕI come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

Hard dungeons and attunements can go suck a choad. I jumped for joy when that nightmare clusterfuck BC called 'Raid Attunement' went away and the hard 5-mans in Cata lost Blizz my sub for a good chunk of its lifetime, with sporadic returns to participate in guild RP. LFR's fine, people need to smart up and realize that they're not LFR's target demographic and they never will be and stop demanding that countless players be shafted so LFR can target a minority demographic.

Oh, and let's not forget hybrids being shoehorned into tanking, healing, out-of-combat rez, or buffbot, and even in BC, they had to tank or heal unless they had a fuckton of CC baked into their class when pugging heroics.

They brought back the rep grinds for MoP and everyone complained about them. When the first put Oondasta it was apparently too difficult, but I would say the difficulty was in line with some of the world bosses in Vanilla or TBC. The legendary quest is a multi-month chain quest that gives a great reward, but now people say 'zomg everyone can get legendaries now!' They keep recycling these ideas, but every time they try to implement something that looks like it you get tons of qq over it. The truth is that people want convenience, they want access to content without arbitrary roadblocks.

Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand RussellIdeas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns. Why should we let them have ideas? -Joseph Stalin

They brought back the rep grinds for MoP and everyone complained about them. When the first put Oondasta it was apparently too difficult, but I would say the difficulty was in line with some of the world bosses in Vanilla or TBC

The real reason they nerfed Oondasta was because he was getting hit by so many players in such a small area (thanks to the tap-to-faction changes) that for many players, the game became a slideshow. He was nerfed to remedy that, but they've since fixed the other more relevant tech issues and seem to be considering buffing him back to release strength.

When I think back to Vanilla and BC I remember having something to do all the time.

What could we do?

People could engage in a quest that they could follow at there own pace. This quest took weeks to complete but the reward was an epic item (back then epics actually felt epic). The quest fit the mold of an RPG and not some currency simulator. You actually felt like you were gearing yourself to fight the hardships in azeroth, not simply waiting for some arbitrary reset(once a week) to allow you to earn more currency.

So basicly the legendary questchain in MoP?

Originally Posted by ManOluck

A game of Points is not an RPG or Immersive

Would the legend of zelda be as fun if you could just buy the mastersword for 1000 valor? Or was it more immersive and engaging to be able to actually build the sword? What feels more like a currency SIM or an RPG?

Currently the game is starting to follow a standard "formula" and with it is losing it's creative edge.(subjective I know but this is how I feel)

- Farm valor to cap each week (because in WOW its not possible to earn anymore Prestige for killing stuff and making the world safer"RPG")

- Farm LFR and normal Dungeons (because in WOW every boss has 3 versions of itself ..... not very immersive )

But the mastersword, in this case, would be the possible legendary weapon at the end of MoP. But for a smaller example, a BS can make a decent weapon that takes a while to make.

Originally Posted by ManOluck

Why Cataclysm dungeons Failed / That Epic Feeling

You may say Badge of Justice were the same thing as Valor and I disagree completely, at least the BC version(They got it right the first time and should never have changed it). If you are going to offer a currency for something at least allow that currency to hold some value due to the difficult nature in obtaining it. When people spent the Badges they earned, the epics that were rewarded actually felt EPIC to players earning them. Epics were not something just handed out to a bunch of kids trick or treating at Halloween (LFM Mumta, LFM GODA O look 15 valor!!!)

But badges were the same as valor. Not every heroic in TBC was as difficult as, say, Shattered Halls with a prot warrior and no CC. When the Isle of Quel'danas was released (and the ridiculously good badge items were added) you could easily run through some of these heroics with a prot paladin and one or two CC classes (depending on which heroic)
Unless you thought Mechanar, Auchenai, Ramparts, Mana-Tombs, Old Hillsbrad, Sethekk, Blood Furnace, Slave Pens and the Underbog were ''really difficult'' back then.

Originally Posted by ManOluck

Attunements

From my experience people only need to run LFR for 3 hours, knock out the bosses and they are done for the week. Blizzard has actually removed content by making previous content irrelevant and lessening the EPIC feeling items now hold (good bye unique looking armor tiers , Just transmog or run LFR for a recolour...). Blizzard has given players less to do by removing attunements or keys and taken way that RPG feeling (LBRS you will be missed, so long Scarlet Key). How can an epic reward feel "epic" if the ease of obtaining it is just earning some easy to obtain currency and removing the mystery of finally seeing content that you worked so hard lay eyes upon (just seeing an encounter could be considered just as epic as actually seeing that shiney purple drop).

When you are part of a fantasy world it make sense unlocking gates or obtaining keys. Rituals/mystery have always been a part of adventure (Looking at you indiana Jones) How great is it for the audience to finally see that door open or waters parts to expose the hidden treasures that await....

Because getting a key from running a low lvl instance was such a difficult thing to do. Transmog doesn't mean there aren't any unique looking tiers anymore, it just means that not everyone looks the same during a specific tier (because people are actually able to wear what they like)

And attunements were so fun. It was so fun having to recruit someone and having to boost said person through all the attunements first, before being able to progress on current content!

Fully agree whit this guy, peeps who dont agree whit this post. Are the people who sucked at the game back then, didnt understand how it worked and where lazy or they started after tbc. The people who dont agree whit the things this guy says are the people who killed this game in the first place. So i thank you verry mutch, fucking idiots.

I actually really agree with the idea of the tier 0.5 quest. I thought it was a great idea then, and i'm disappointed they haven't done it again since. I would have loved it if they had an upgradable dungeon set this expansion.

The legendary quest in MoP doesn't really have the same appeal (although I still think it is a cool idea), but it is almost exclusively gated by raid content. Raids can only be completed once a week, so the quest really isn't done at your own pace. This is basically my quarrel with the progression path this expansion. Heroics are essentially worthless (they provide 463 gear vs 476 honor gear), the main gearing path is from LFR. I find it very difficult to get motivated about alts when I am pushed into 45 minute queues for weekly content so quickly after I pick up the character. This isn't a problem that I have on my mains (because they jumped through normal/heroic raids as they were current), but the catchup is really awkward.

Fully agree whit this guy, peeps who dont agree whit this post. Are the people who sucked at the game back then, didnt understand how it worked and where lazy or they started after tbc. The people who dont agree whit the things this guy says are the people who killed this game in the first place. So i thank you verry mutch, fucking idiots.

There are games out there that never changed, or didn't change in ways that appealed to a broader playerbase. They still exist, but they have playerbases in the hundreds of thousands, not the millions.

I started in Wrath, I have played pretty consistently since then. There are thing I don't like about each of the 3 expansions I've played.

I know for certain, however, I would not have enjoyed raiding in Vanilla. I did not enjoy looking for groups for dungeons in trade during Wrath, though it was nice to be a tank and get to set my group how I liked it, and not accept people who had caused problems in the past.

There were lots of problems with Vanilla, very very few people raided, not because it was too hard, which is objectively false, but because it took too much time to get the most basic gear to be able to survive the resistance checks (just because I didn't play doesn't mean I don't know what went on).

More people are raiding now than ever before, and this is a bad thing? No, of course not. The game lost a lot of subscribers, but if they tried to take it back to vanilla days it'd lose many, many more.

Fully agree whit this guy, peeps who dont agree whit this post. Are the people who sucked at the game back then, didnt understand how it worked and where lazy or they started after tbc. The people who dont agree whit the things this guy says are the people who killed this game in the first place. So i thank you verry mutch, fucking idiots.

When I think back to Vanilla and BC I remember having something to do all the time.

You must have been in one of those guilds that didn't just raid Kara in the hopes moving on to tier 5 at some point only to see your tank take his/her newly crafted resistance set and join a guild that already had Hydross and the rest of T5 on farm. I guess the something I always had to do was farm motes for the net jackass to do this.

Yes. Stop making new threads about this kind of thing every single day. Also, go to your account page and unsubscribe if you're really unhappy. Finally, we're glad you have nostalgia but stop forcing us to relive it.

I have to agree with much of what the TC said. A lot of the adventure has left WoW, and other MMOs. The adventure was traded for quality-of-life "improvements" for those playing for the daily, monotonous grind that all games eventually devolve into. WoW saw massive success and growth all the way up to Wrath of the Lich King, where most of those quality-of-life changes were made.

Of course you have. Let me guess you've also cleared ToT heroic right? You ever notice how these posts are always (except for Jaylock but he's schizophrenic or something) from people who whine about "casuals" and "bads" when they're so far above the curve that it shouldn't matter what other people do?

Of course you have. Let me guess you've also cleared ToT heroic right? You ever notice how these posts are always (except for Jaylock but he's schizophrenic or something) from people who whine about "casuals" and "bads" when they're so far above the curve that it shouldn't matter what other people do?

I havent even killed 1 heroic boss...

And it took alot of trial and error to get the challenge modes done. Hours of countless wiping and slow improvements that anyone who wishes to obtain the same gear can do... I really dont understand where the hate is coming from here... are you ok?

Attunements were a hassle due to finding people and clearing difficult content. By tying them to LFR and LFD, you remove these issues.

Valor should really purchase LFR level items with sockets if we want to distinguish actual raiding from casual raiding. It seems odd that casuals ( I am one, btw) who never enter a normal level raid can gear up at the normal level without doing the work. Doing world bosses obviously doesn't apply to this.

What I would also like to see is cross zone quest chains. Think back to the Great Masquerade chain or the Demon Razelikh chain from Blasted Lands. Or the Sunken Temple chain that tied in with Zul Farak and the Hinterlands.

Grab all these ideas you feel are awesome for a MMO for nowaday standards and public, start a gaming company and make millions. I'm sure you will get to 20mi subs in two months after launch.

You don't even need to know how to produce games, your ideas are enough.
If you don't have money to start a project, try that Kickstarter website. As we can deduce from all whining on forums, it's clear that you'll have MILLIONS of players craving for a game like you are suggesting, so money from donations won't be an issue.

Grab all these ideas you feel are awesome for a MMO for nowaday standards and public, start a gaming company and make millions. I'm sure you will get to 20mi subs in two months after launch.

You don't even need to know how to produce games, your ideas are enough.
If you don't have money to start a project, try that Kickstarter website. As we can deduce from all whining on forums, it's clear that you'll have MILLIONS of players craving for a game like you are suggesting, so money from donations won't be an issue.

Good luck.

...and that. Listening to people how awesome games could be if their ideas were headed probably worked in favor of making SWotOR a huge hit in the community.

But seriously. Do you guys who post ideas like the OP think that if it was so easy Blizzard wouldn't have made it that way already. Do you even stop to consider that MAYBE the game now would have only 2 million players or less if Blizzard listened to you?

Yes, it is great how YOU remember that YOU had awesome things to do and it great that they worked in 2006. Your telephone with a cord that stood in your house also worked great in 2006. Are you willing to give up your smartphone for that? I remember I had epic times with that dial and all....