Over the past couple of years, with the rise in popularity in MMA, it seems that many MA are moving towards MMA and competition and away from TMA. There is also a large rise in MA who never studied any TMA.

You watch a lot of guys who have none of the traditional MA core values such as humility, respect, and patience. Far too often you see these guys mouth off on tv or on the radio and even all over the net, with no regard to others, themselves or the art and people they represent.

So are these types of virtues being tossed to the wayside in favor of a good armbar and a dream of making it big? Are these things taught in your school?Are your instructors choosy about WHO they teach?

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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be." Lao Tzu

I'm in a cynical mood so I'll open a can of worms to see what birds are around. THere's a lot of talk about the values and virtues of MA, and little action -- not only in sport MA, but all MA.

It all seems to be image and marketing. Putting the values on the wall is great for marketing to concerned parents. What difference does it make within the clubs? None. Clubs choose members based on ability to pay. CLubs may evict actively sadistic members because they chase away other paying customers, and that's about it.

It's funny, I'm not even 36 yet, but sometimes when I survey the general martial arts world, i'm starting to feel like an old man. Not because i'm good or unique in any way, just because i've done it for a while, and I think I can see some of the larger patterns at play there.

So yeah, there were plenty of asses doing TMA long before MMA was even a blip on the radar, I think the difference is as you say...there are some MMA gyms that don't even seem to care who they are teaching. I remember being at karate tournaments in the 80's though where the people that lost literally threw tantrums and tossed chairs around, stuff like that.

Neither MMA nor TMA is like this across the board though, i've read bits about Crazy Monkey defense and similar programs..being a TMA guy they don't interest me on a personal level, but they look very good as far as being training for people who want to train in an MMA type fornmat, but not train with, or act like meatheads. There is no reason at all that MMA cannot carry all the same values that TMA supposedly does, if I had to pick out anything standing in the way of it i'd say it's the marketing and culture of the sport itself, and to some degree simply the culture at large.

Anyway, young men are young men, what can ya say really, neither TMA nor MMA is going to prevent, youth, stupidity, and testosterone, alcohol from making fools of people. personally I hope "Joe Average" MMA training continues to evolve programs and such that are geared not only towards competition..but also just training in MA because it is fun and good for you.

That kind of training -genuine effort for it's own sake- no matter TMA or MMA is what can calm people down, and help people reach (maybe) a place where all those "traditional" values can flourish.

That is rather cynical. So then, what about clubs that are non profit?

And as for students, shouldnt teachers be responsible for whom they teach?

Also I offer that it makes a huge difference in the dojo. These people often take time away from the class unnecessarily, bully other students and people outside of dojos at times, belittle people,and countless other undesirable behaviors, so to say that they have little affect isnt accurate.

I agree that values start at home,but they should be taught in any learning enviroment, just as they are taught in public school systems.

Trophies may not teach humility as you put it, but losing at competition often makes even the "tough guys" humble most times.

And a BS meter is a good thing but what about New comers who have no idea if they are being duped?

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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be." Lao Tzu

For the record I think I agree Chen...To me a teacher of martial arts has responsibility to teach a simple, core set of values along with the stuff by default. This has always been the case for martial arts, it doesn't need to be over the top or ridiculous, but a simple basic code of conduct is necessary as far as i'm concerned.

I remember once my first Karate teacher made us gather around after some of us started abusing partners in training, generally acting cocky. He pointed to the kanji on the wall for "Karate Do" and asked if we could tell him what it meant. Of course everyone gave all these different esoteric answers.

He just shook his head and said "No, what it really means is don't be an )(*hole".

I had a teacher in TKD that often had students run or do pushups for all manner of things.I got busted more than a few times for "celebrating" after a match or landing a good shot.

At the time it seemed a little extreme but looking back on it, I may have caused peoples feelings to be hurt in one way or another. In any event, it certainly didnt help anyone.

Its amazing that a teacher who teaches history or ABC's has to have a liscense and background check and yet another person can call themselves teacher and teach someone how to choke another person or how to use a knife or sword with no more than a empty roomand a "Martial Arts" sign.

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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be." Lao Tzu

And as for students, shouldnt teachers be responsible for whom they teach?

...etc.

Yes, Chen Zen, I agree completely and wasn't arguing against that.

I was talking about what IS, not what SHOULD BE. Actual conditions need some oversight, especially when they differ from public image. As you say in your later post, "It's amazing that a teacher who teaches history or ABC's has to have a license and background check and yet another person can call themselves teacher and teach someone how to choke another person or how to use a knife or sword with no more than a empty room and a "Martial Arts" sign."

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God grant me a good sword and no use for it. -- Polish proverb