Who can say whether someone else is realized or not? But keep in mind, there have been a lot of western practitioners that have been doing this stuff for a long time. Longer in fact than some Tibetan teachers out there teaching currently. Realization is not just for Tibetans only. Besides isnt arguing over whether someone is or isnt just using our discriminating mind anyways?

"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Jax wrote:That's a bit of the problem with the DC... ...... I would seek out Dzogchen teachers who have the time to meet with you one on one. The magic is in the live "exchange".

Jax, of course, this is your opinion and personal experience. However -with all the respect- the way you express it, sounds very absolute to my understanding. I am one of the latest students of Rinpoche and my experience is totally different than yours. Of course, that does not mean it is less or more significant. It is only different..... I feel thankful to ChNN Rinpoche and to everyone who works for the existence of DC. SMS is very important for the continuation of the teachings. At least it is what I have heard from Rinpoche several times.

Then from my experience, I have noticed that some very old students who met Rinpoche at the 70's or 80's have strange ideas about what it is Dzogchen or what it is not. They often deny so many things and have so many limitations that make me wonder... Sometimes I think that might be the deplorable incident of the hippy generation...

Last edited by Dronma on Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

Fa, you bring up a good point. Tenzin Wangyal has said hat only 1% of students realize Rigpa. What a testament to the failure of the traditional lineages. Following all these Lamas has been a huge failure. How many people do you know who "realized" their enlightened nature? Dzogchen needs a fresh presentation, non-Tibetan, non-cultural, non-Buddhist, completely generic. So much of what people are being taught is a complete failure of prioritization. A Western generic Dzogchen is evolving.

Jax wrote:That's a bit of the problem with the DC... it was quite hilarious to realize all the rituals, mantras and practices had nothing to do with Rigpa at all...

But that is clear for many of us, and Rinpoche always repeats that all that ritual, etc is not necessary, they are all secondary practices and usefull depending on circumstances, because of our limitations ... tne only necessary practice is the Guru Yoga with white A in a thigle, but even the white A and the thigle is a secondary practice. The rule is simple, or you have fully stabilized rigpa, then you do not need any secondary practice, or is not yet fully stabilized, and you can use secondary practices, depending on circumstances and your limitations ... so it's as clear to day as it could have been 30 years ago.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Instead of coming here and littering all our Dzogchen threads with duplicates of your misrepresentation of Longchenpa's words, why don't you leave the explanation of Dzogchen to those who have actually realized it?

Surely you don't mean to be telling us that we're all being duped by our Dzogchen gurus?

Jax considers himself a Dzogchen Guru, he gives direct introduction and instructions in Tögal. So probably he think he also have some realization.

/magnus

Jax is funny!!!!

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

Sorry Jax, no disrespect intended but that isnt exactly what I meant. My point wasnt that following in the traditional way was wrong, my point was that there are plenty of westerners who have been doing it now for a long time and have just as much chance of Realization as any Tibetan. Many westerners have this idea that they can only study with a Tibetan teacher because a western teacher cant possibly have any Realization. Thats not to say that having a "fresh presentation" is bad either. Look at my teacher, ChNNR, he doesnt exactly teach in a "traditional way". He always says that we have to accord with circumstances. I believe that is what he has done when he started the DC and the SMS program.

"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

I wonder if maybe it was my comment that made you think of the common "feeling" among many westerners that realization is for Tibetans and not for us. I can understand how my comment could seem to smack of that--what with the prevalence of this thinking among westerners--but I assure you my thoughts had nothing whatsoever to do with that. Not even a little bit.

Jax wrote:That's a bit of the problem with the DC... it was quite hilarious to realize all the rituals, mantras and practices had nothing to do with Rigpa at all...

But that is clear for many of us, and Rinpoche always repeats that all that ritual, etc is not necessary, they are all secondary practices and usefull depending on circumstances, because of our limitations ... tne only necessary practice is the Guru Yoga with white A in a thigle, but even the white A and the thigle is a secondary practice. The rule is simple, or you have fully stabilized rigpa, then you do not need any secondary practice, or is not yet fully stabilized, and you can use secondary practices, depending on circumstances and your limitations ... so it's as clear to day as it could have been 30 years ago.

Sönam

Yes, Rinpoche is like an awakened broken record on these principles... They come through loud and clear, time and time again, each teaching, despite the webcast cutting in and out, and even despite the occasional hedewa-inducing Tibetan pop music interruptions.

If I didn't get the points about secondary practices and methods not being the main point until a private pointing out, I'd have to conclude that the only thing I needed more than Dzogchen was a hearing exam!

Actually Pema Rigzin I wasnt thinking of you specifically, more of just a general observation.

"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

First point, Jax is a fake teacher on yahoo groups. He shouldn't even be allowed on this site. He "teaches" thogal, longde etc.

Second point, this fake guru uses the word "awareness" for rigpa, which means this guy is clueless about basic Tibetan translation, let alone Dzogchen. Hell, even in non-Dzogchen Tibetan texts the word rigpa is used all the time. So Rigpa = knowledge. Rigpa, in a Dzogchen context, is knowledge of one's nature. The nature of the mind is the inseperability of clarity and emptiness (i.e. mirror-like clarity that cannot be found). However Dzogchen has methods that work with the basis (gzhi) which is utterly beyond the mind....yet still one's nature. Both of these are included under rigpa.

Jax wrote:To add to that: As one practices togal, as the thigles become larger and more distinct as well as the "vajra chains", after practice there is a distinct intensity of natural "clarity" or rigpa. One's stability in being the non-dual Knowing within all experience is enhanced, quite beyond the relaxed state of trekchod. There is a much stronger aspect of Wisdom or Yeshe present after togal practice sessions. The sense of primordial Knowingness is more apparent, non-conceptually. One should not wait to practice togal until one's trekchod is completely stable, as togal itself will enhance trekchod immensely. By activating and opening the light channels within the subtle body associated with the main Kati Light channel between the heart center and the eyes, Clear Light Energy will overflow into the central channel clearing many blockages that otherwise would remain for a much longer period. As a result one's prana more easily enters the central channel naturally revealing its essential nature as Yeshe or Wisdom wind. The entire skull becomes transparent from the upwelling of Clear Light throughout the subtle Light channels and one's Awareness is recognized to be boundless and centerless Being, as one recognizes the nature of the phrase "Emptiness is Form and Form is Emptiness" to be one's actual nature. You don't get this crystal "transparency" with trekchod alone as easily or as swiftly or as profoundly. You can have similar benefits from Yang-Ti practice of the seven levels of Dungtso Repa's terma, whether in dark retreat or during the day light.

First off, the points you make in here that actually relate to togal are not subject matter for a web forum.Secondly, your interpretation is bizarre.I would conclude that you clearly have never received a single teaching on togal.

For those interested, I started practicing togal in 1985 after receiving transmission of togal section of the Yeshe Lama through Dudjums lineage. I also received the togal teaching from Changchub Dorje's terma by Norbu. I also received the complete togal teachings of Shardza Rinpoche from the current Menri Lopon. I also received Yang-Ti empowerments and practice instructions from Norbu and he personally guided my dark retreat. I share my experiences as most can't find Lamas easily who are available one on one. Most don't have much experience themselves as I have learned.

Jax wrote:For those interested, I started practicing togal in 1985 after receiving transmission of togal section of the Yeshe Lama through Dudjums lineage. I also received the togal teaching from Changchub Dorje's terma by Norbu. I also received the complete togal teachings of Shardza Rinpoche from the current Menri Lopon. I also received Yang-Ti empowerments and practice instructions from Norbu and he personally guided my dark retreat. I share my experiences as most can't find Lamas easily who are available one on one. Most don't have much experience themselves as I have learned.

You don't even know the basics of Dzogchen though.....like what rigpa means. See my post above.

What is a fake guru? One without definitive experience but claims they do? Or is it one that is dishonest? I am not a guru. I am a practitioner that's shares with everyone freely... A spiritual friend, a sharing as the Buddha extolled as a kalyanmitra should...

Jax wrote:To add to that: As one practices togal, as the thigles become larger and more distinct as well as the "vajra chains", after practice there is a distinct intensity of natural "clarity" or rigpa. One's stability in being the non-dual Knowing within all experience is enhanced, quite beyond the relaxed state of trekchod. There is a much stronger aspect of Wisdom or Yeshe present after togal practice sessions. The sense of primordial Knowingness is more apparent, non-conceptually. One should not wait to practice togal until one's trekchod is completely stable, as togal itself will enhance trekchod immensely. By activating and opening the light channels within the subtle body associated with the main Kati Light channel between the heart center and the eyes, Clear Light Energy will overflow into the central channel clearing many blockages that otherwise would remain for a much longer period. As a result one's prana more easily enters the central channel naturally revealing its essential nature as Yeshe or Wisdom wind. The entire skull becomes transparent from the upwelling of Clear Light throughout the subtle Light channels and one's Awareness is recognized to be boundless and centerless Being, as one recognizes the nature of the phrase "Emptiness is Form and Form is Emptiness" to be one's actual nature. You don't get this crystal "transparency" with trekchod alone as easily or as swiftly or as profoundly. You can have similar benefits from Yang-Ti practice of the seven levels of Dungtso Repa's terma, whether in dark retreat or during the day light.

Are you seriously quoting the Heart Sutra??? Jesus fcucking Christ.

Last edited by SayNoToJax on Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jax wrote:For those interested, I started practicing togal in 1985 after receiving transmission of togal section of the Yeshe Lama through Dudjums lineage. I also received the togal teaching from Changchub Dorje's terma by Norbu. I also received the complete togal teachings of Shardza Rinpoche from the current Menri Lopon. I also received Yang-Ti empowerments and practice instructions from Norbu and he personally guided my dark retreat. I share my experiences as most can't find Lamas easily who are available one on one. Most don't have much experience themselves as I have learned.

If this is true, which I doubt,you must not have paid attention, and you clearly have no regard for any samayas you had with these teachers.