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Religions and cults survive the death of their former leadership when those leaders are replaced. When a cult seemingly has no central leadership figure, that's because the real man of power whom the followers converge around is well-hidden from outsiders.

So the real man of power where Apostles in first days of Christianity? And Jesus was they their sell mouth? Christians do not like what you say here. Really, I think you stretch historical facts only to prove yours point.

In my POV, religion and cults survives because there is possibility of replacing from lower ranks, I.E. Killing leader do not lead to cult dissarray because it's goals are more sound than people now running it. It really is not that different than LGBT movement crystallized around Harvey Milk and surviving his death. Old leader die, new leaders come, cult/religion/movement stays.

Iron Masters hunt society? You sure about that, wyrd? They hunt humans. Not just any humans, since most aren't dangerous. They only hunt the ones whose influence reach out beyond themselves. Serial killers, politicians, cult leaders and such are those people, the big game in the woods. Human society is the woods the game prance in, and the Iron Masters learn to navigate through those woods. Trying to dismantle societies, while being something that an Iron Master lodge could form out of, is by no means central enough to be called a Pillar.

You are only partially right. WtF 2E points that individuals are crystallizing particular actions, but Tribe hunts humanS, because in groups ( like cults ) they are dangerous.

Originally posted by WtF 2E, p. 44

THE PREY
The Iron Masters hunt the most dangerous prey: humans. Other werewolves hear that and scoff. After all, how dangerous is a human compared to a nine-foot killing machine or a spider the size of a VW Microbus? Individually, they’re right. A single human, even armed, is about as much threat to a werewolf as a housecat is to a human. That’s not what makes humans the most dangerous, though. No, humans are dangerous because they’re so damn unpredictable, and their influence can ripple out far beyond themselves.

I would point that many humans working under one goal are far dangerous than lone single human. Many humans like cult for example...

There is role for Lodge of Lighting in hunting individuals, I admit. But there is also place for group running after factions like Lodge of Crime.

Seidmadr, in his argument, said organized crime basically equals society. Which is ubiquitous, as you yourself said. Then it disqualifies them from being a Pillar Lodge, because hunting within human societies is what all Iron Masters do in the first place.

On the same ground Lodge of Lighting would be disqualified - individuals galvanizing society are still part of society, so by your reasoning, they would be not Pillar. You real are making illogical points only to throw away idea outside of canon, here.

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I propose the Lodge of Crime as a Lodge primarily composed of Iron Masters, whose Sacred Prey is rival organized crime but focusing more on the underground movers and shakers rather than the phenomenon itself. These guys would come straight for John Marcone, not the mafia of Chicago.

And how this would be different than local cell of Lodge of Lighting? You said yourself - Lighting hunts individuals. Leaders of organised crime are also individuals. Not to mention that goes very close to Lodge of Shield...

Also, Uratha logic would conclude that cults which encourage harmful Resonances are basically criminal organizations as well. Crimes against the spirit world, that is. So human cults are another "competing criminal organization," so to speak, and thus they're still valid prey for the Lodge.

However, crime bosses and cult leaders are by definition surrounded and protected by their minions and cultists. That's where the Siskur-Dah Condition can come in. Maybe something similar in concept to the 3rd facet of the Full-Moon Gift, which lets the werewolf easily dispose of hecklers that get in the way of the real prey.

Give it then to Lodge of Lighting fan write-up, it sounds as more fitting.

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You are only partially right. WtF 2E points that individuals are crystallizing particular actions, but Tribe hunts humanS, because in groups ( like cults ) they are dangerous.

Wyrd, you're here citing the exact paragraph I pointed out doesn't go for the "there's a lot of them" angle in describing how the threat a human poses exists apart from a single character's personal capacity for harm. That's kind of a hallmark of failure to read.

Humans are dangerous because they don't exist in a vacuum. Iron Masters make it their business to manage the non-vacuum in which they operate as a matter of spiritual mandate.

Resident Sanguinary Analyst
Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

Comment

So the real man of power where Apostles in first days of Christianity? And Jesus was they their sell mouth? Christians do not like what you say here. Really, I think you stretch historical facts only to prove yours point.

​I never said Jesus was their mouthpiece. Don't put words in my mouth. Jesus was the early Christians' leader, and when he went away the Apostles took the job of spreading the gospels, becoming the leaders in his stead.

In my POV, religion and cults survives because there is possibility of replacing from lower ranks, I.E. Killing leader do not lead to cult dissarray because it's goals are more sound than people running it. It really is not that different than LGBT movement crystallized around Harvey Milk and surviving his death. Old leader die, new leaders come, cult/religion/movement stays.

Social movements, yes, But I thought we were talking about cults and religions here, for whom the presence of influential leaders is more important.

And hey, you say yourself, new leaders come. They're the ones who get hunted, not the layman followers.

You are only partially right. WtF 2E points that individuals are crystallizing particular actions, but Tribe hunts humanS, because in groups ( like cults ) they are dangerous.

I would point that many humans working under one goal are far dangerous than lone single human. Many humans like cult for example...

​The part you quoted isn't talking about the collective might of the faceless masses. It's talking about how a single human can influence his peers and drive them beyond the limits of a single human. The "one goal" you speak of is strong, yes, but it is the prophet who espouses that goal who transforms it from an abstract concept into a tangible force.

There is role for Lodge of Lighting in hunting individuals, I admit. But there is also place for group running after factions like Lodge of Crime.

​And my argument is NOT there is no place for lodges hunting human groups. My argument is that I doubt their status as a Pillar.

On the same ground Lodge of Lighting would be disqualified - individuals galvanizing society are still part of society, so by your reasoning, they would be not Pillar. You real are making illogical points only to throw away idea outside of canon, here.

The Lodge of Lightning, like all Iron Masters, navigate through human society. That alone would disqualify them as a Lodge. The Lodge of Crime go after galvanizing individuals, which is a refinement of the Tribal Prey. Hence, a Lodge.

The Lodge of Crime, like all Iron Masters, navigate through human society. That alone would disqualify them as a Lodge. The Lodge of Crime navigate through the criminal underground, which is not a refinement of the Tribal Prey, nor a particular refinement of hunting methods because organized crime is basically the same as human society. Hence, less a Lodge.

Comment

And how this would be different than local cell of Lodge of Lighting? You said yourself - Lighting hunts individuals. Leaders of organised crime are also individuals. Not to mention that goes very close to Lodge of Shield...

​That came out as a way of showing how hunting to tear down criminal organizations is ultimately about taking out its leadership. Therefore, as you perceived, closer to the Lodge of Lightning. (And Shield, since it deals with crime)

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Another take that your idea can work (because I'm not opposed to the basic idea):

The Lodge of Lightning hunts founders of organizations and prophets of new beliefs.
The Lodge of the Shield hunts criminals.
The Lodge of Crime hunts leaders of criminal organizations, so that the criminal organizations themselves are dismantled.

So the Lodge of Crime lies in the intersection of Lightning and Shield. So it's either a joint-Lodge protectorate or a pack composed of the two and not a Lodge, or a new-born Lodge that isn't unique enough to be a Pillar.

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The Lodge of Lightning hunts founders of organizations and prophets of new beliefs.
The Lodge of the Shield hunts criminals.
The Lodge of Crime hunts leaders of criminal organizations, so that the criminal organizations themselves are dismantled.

From what you write - it's look like Lodge of Crime would be subsection of Lighting - so it's not sounds as Lodge on it own. And in criminal organizations, leaders change often - but organisations survives. Chain of command is strict in organised crime. Killing leaders will not dismantlement organisation itself.

From my reading, you can Sacred Hunt on whole organisation, like pack or crime family. If yes, then I do not see problem with Lodge of Crime taking out their competition, not only their Capo.

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From what you write - it's look like Lodge of Crime would be subsection of Lighting - so it's not sounds as Lodge on it own.

​As of now? Yes. Which was where the whole Jesus and Apostles stuff came from, as a suggestion to differentiate the two.

Lightning hunts down the founders and the prophets, nipping them before they galvanize the humans around them too much. But this galvanization they seek to hunt down is not limited to criminal activity.

Crimes hunts down the head of criminal organizations. Maybe some of them were founders of the whole group, making them also prey for Lightning. But Crimes would hunt down also those criminal founders' successors, and managers of local branches if the branch is big enough to be competition. Such may not be of interest to Lightning.

And in criminal organizations, leaders change often - but organisations survives. Chain of command is strict in organised crime. Killing leaders will not dismantlement organisation itself.

​The organization survives when there's someone giving orders down the chain of command. Cut the serpent's ugly head when it rears enough times, and it will stay dead.

From my reading, you can Sacred Hunt on whole organisation, like pack or crime family. If yes, then I do not see problem with Lodge of Crime taking out their competition, not only their Capo.

Yes, you can. I didn't say you can't But to do that you'll need to take out those individuals that keep the group going with their influences. Hence, the framing of the designation of the prey focusing more on them than the entire group itself.

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Well, I've gotta work through the tedium of downloading, uncompressing, and deleting copies of my stuff today, and that takes time to process with my computer and connection right now, so let's address this. I grew up Mormon, I know a thing or two about cults.

Would argue with that - secular cults from Antagonists book seems to work exactly that way. Cult leader use cause that is not working in cult members lives and starting the group. Most will disband without cult leader - some will survive, as next cult leaders shows up from previous members.

I really don't know why you're arguing when you basically just pointed out that cults thrive on their figures. Hell, the very book you reference has a big chunk of text about the importance of a Leader figure. Masses don't form unless they have something to gravitate to, ordinary people do not start singing praises to electromagnetism until they get the idea doing so will benefit them somehow, and that often has to come from a persuasive figure who's willing to lead them by word and hand. A Cult cannot Be until there is a Word, and that Word has to come from Something That Can Speak.

Originally posted by wyrdhamster

Weird, I did not seen any Buddha and Christ in over two millenia, and still their cults works even long after they death.

*sigh* Yes, because once the main personality died/was removed from this plane of existence, surrogates who were charismatic enough and perceived with enough authority took center stage and continued leading those cults until they became sects over time-and the potential failure of those figures could have likewise rendered those religions as mere footnotes, if even that. If the Apostles hadn't picked up where Jesus left off and established churches, structures, and methods of passing on authority, there wouldn't be the infinite variations of Christianity today, with it's myriad of popes, cardinals, prophets, quorums, priests, bishops, wackadoos and what have you all acting as a scaled figure of gravitas who keeps people coming to the activites and ideas that make a cult a cult. If Mahakasyapa hadn't convened the First Buddhist Council in 483 BCE and thereby legitimized 500 arahats as figures who could speak in unison, Buddhism would not have survived to the point that we now worry about the fate of Tibetan Buddhism as the Dalai Lama gets older without the Panchem Lama to properly discover the next Dalai Lama, possibly leading to the end of Tibetan Buddhism as we know it, and the mass political problem that presents. If someone had struck down Brigham Young, Emma Smith, Sidney Rigdon, and William Marks, there would be no Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints today, and I probably would only have been loosely raised Christian.

If lightning struck down every Apostle, no one would give a crap about Christ. If wolves devoured all of those 500 arahats, Buddhism wouldn't be a thing.

A cult needs leaders. Those leaders need not be immortal-they can change hands, just like any other structure in the whole of human history.

Originally posted by wyrdhamster

There are MANY kinds of cults, not only personality type. Really, read Antagonists book chapter, to see all diffrent. But even if we only commits to religious only ( that is not the point of the Lodge, it hunts various groups ), our major religions were cults before. Christianity is rebellious off-shoot from Judaism, lead by the 13 men on the beginning, from when their cult leader die.

That there are many kinds of cults does not stop them needing powerful figures. You need people who make you at least feel okay in being deviant, ideally empowered and right.Whether it's an apocalypse bringing cult or a women's reading club that started scandalously brutal depictions of murder and has decided to give it a shot, both of those start with someone being into it and being the sort of person it's okay, even right and empowering, to be into this sort of stuff with, someone who knows the stuff and leads the way and makes it where you want to be. Without these figures, would-be cultists would just continue to drift in the ocean of socio-cultural norms.

I suppose it can be clarified that these things don't have to be human-the whispering fungus-covered tree in the basement can be a cult leader if it's acting in purpose, but you still have a sentience that is acting as a pole personality to bring in people, and if they're wise, they'll use their more socially inclined members as leaders of sorts. But yeah, no, Cults need a Speaker, otherwise, you don't have a cult.

Originally posted by wyrdhamster

Great, so let Lodge of Lighting hunts cult leaders. Really, let Lighting do it's thing. There are also this all other normal-level cult members that do all this illegal stuff cult leaders do not want themselves or do not have time for. There comes Lodge of Crime.

The Crime Versus Cult thing doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Like, at all. You'd figure a Lodge dedicated to a criminal organization model would have it's sacred prey instead be lawmakers and law enforcers, because often times criminal organizations emerge from a failure of law and government to take care of certain peoples, or an abuse of those things against certain peoples, or "violaters" who hide behind laws for protection. The entire thing feels shakier beyond that, because [insert metric shit ton of discussion here], but even if I ignore the rest of that, Criminals versus Cults is non-sensical.

Originally posted by wyrdhamster

If 'Humanity as a Prey' is only about some individuals, why have two others Pillars? Why have any other Lodges in Tribe? Lodge of Lighting should be then end of any Iron Masters actions. It's not? Oh, so there is place for other groups and Prey interpretations in a Tribe.

People who galvanize others are important, sure. So are the people who get in the way, the soldiers and watchmen. So are the occultists who may not have great presence, but whose minds and words flesh out and further validate the concept, the people who provide the food, the metal, the art. Humanity is dangerous on mass, but like any system of collective parts, some people carry more of a stress load than others. The soldiers and scientists are worshipped even if they aren't personally charismatic, and so become dangerous hinge points at time.

Yes, the Galvanizers are important to manage. This doesn't make them the whole picture-a tapestry is not made of a single thread.
The whole picture of humanity is dangerous. Doesn't mean that it doesn't rely on individuals-pull the right strings in a tapestry and it all falls apart.

And with that, I'm done ranting. I know there's stuff that annoys the crap out of me beyond this point, but I've things to do. In the meantime: