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Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Appears I was wrong about the chakra issue, though I don't see how that pertains to Izanagi and Izanami.

how could you not, it's an axiomatic deduction by way of logical elimination

a body with infinite durability (always restored to peak) and infinite stamina

the first thing i looked out for was whether izanagi/izanami's sharingan-destroying effects would work on an edo tensei zombie. it did.

then your theory came into play. the edo tensei body was finite, the resurrection was equivalent to just restoring their physical conditions to one-time peak, that would wear out as they did when they were alive.

then your theory got disproven, there is an undying body with unlimited chakra

so how did the sharingan get deactivated? the eventual theory left is that it has something to do with the spirit/soul of the user.

but that just raises further questions.
it does not make sense as it means any amount of transplantation wouldn't help unless transplanting ripped out the other guy's soul, so whatever eyes the sharingan user gets, it'd still be blind when used by him

in any case, all this is irrelevant as kishi has obviously chosen this path in his storyline, apparently without giving it much thought

the point is, there is now the question of how izanagi/izanami deactivates the sharingan. it's obviously not a physical or chakra injury now that this has been confirmed

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Unlimited chakra doesn't mean the body isn't finite. We have still witness multiple Edo summons affected by their own limitations. Heck, Itachi still bleeds when he uses Amaterasu, which would have nothing to do with his soul. We saw Itachi physically affected all throughout the fight with Kabuto. The addition of unlimited chakra merely that they can keep fighting forever and presumably spam techniques, though we still have yet to see any do so.

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Quote:

in any case, all this is irrelevant as kishi has obviously chosen this path in his storyline, apparently without giving it much thought

That pretty much sums up the answer to most of the questions raised and discussed in this thread. Everyone is right, while simultaneously being completely wrong. Why, because the manga often contradicts itself. Kishi has shown a willingness to sacrifice consistency and basic logic for plot purposes or just plain old blatant fanservice. While he was initially focused on the details of the story, he has become more interested in the bang. The Senju & The Uchiha, two of the biggest bangs, ripped massive holes in the integrity and consistency of the story, although special credit does have to be given to the Uchiha on this front. At this point, they've just managed to get themselves and everyone else lost in the wreckage of their own awesomeness. And without a reliable guide to help us find our way some determinations are going to be near impossible to make.

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

we do have some guide. It's been implied that Sharingan was rare even before Konoha was established. That could explain why Senju and Uchiha were able to fight evenly - the Uchiha who had Sharingan were either double teamed or fought against a prodigy. Makes more sense than Senju being strong enough to fight Sharingan and not lose everything.

Though, any power related to Uchiha unfairly gets called powerup or "haxx" despite what we've seen. Though, the only reason I'm not calling Madara "haxxed" is due to the Kyuubi. Not sure if Muu and Oonoki really fought Madara, but he was able to take them down.

HOWEVER, with what we saw from Obito and Sasuke, Sharingan should have been easy to unlock. Kishi's bein confusing. During the war, Sharingan should be easy to unlock due to the loss Uchiha should have faced, even if it wasn't as many. The situation they would have found themselves in should have given them enough emotion to unlock Sharingan. This is still a vague area that could be expanded upon.

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Originally Posted by M3J

we do have some guide. It's been implied that Sharingan was rare even before Konoha was established. That could explain why Senju and Uchiha were able to fight evenly - the Uchiha who had Sharingan were either double teamed or fought against a prodigy. Makes more sense than Senju being strong enough to fight Sharingan and not lose everything.

Though, any power related to Uchiha unfairly gets called powerup or "haxx" despite what we've seen. Though, the only reason I'm not calling Madara "haxxed" is due to the Kyuubi. Not sure if Muu and Oonoki really fought Madara, but he was able to take them down.

HOWEVER, with what we saw from Obito and Sasuke, Sharingan should have been easy to unlock. Kishi's bein confusing. During the war, Sharingan should be easy to unlock due to the loss Uchiha should have faced, even if it wasn't as many. The situation they would have found themselves in should have given them enough emotion to unlock Sharingan. This is still a vague area that could be expanded upon.

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Not MS necessarily, just Sharingan. Obito and Sasuke woke theirs from trauma or feeling strong emotion, whether to protect a friend or anger. Uchiha back then should have woken SHaringan considering their lives and their loved ones' lives tended to be in danger whenever they fought a battle. I can understand MS being very rare, at least in those times, but not Sharingan.

However, Kishi did never say Sharingan was always rare. Might have meant after Konoha was formed, or after Hiruzen became a hokage.

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Quote:

Might have meant after Konoha was formed, or after Hiruzen became a hokage.

i agree with this because after konoha was formed they were no longer push to the limits of fighting senju(and others)regularly...this was the lead to their downfall by konoha or by another...not enough battle experience as a clan(they were security guards for konoha).
plus,we have no idea how many fell in the great ninja wars(sharingan,ms,or ems)...because besides madara.it seems the whole clan back then were all in for konoha as far as protecting it...

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Originally Posted by gnut

i agree with this because after konoha was formed they were no longer push to the limits of fighting senju(and others)regularly...this was the lead to their downfall by konoha or by another...not enough battle experience as a clan(they were security guards for konoha).
plus,we have no idea how many fell in the great ninja wars(sharingan,ms,or ems)...because besides madara.it seems the whole clan back then were all in for konoha as far as protecting it...

From what we saw, they couldn't have lacked that much battle experience when their threat of a civil war was taken so serious and the best option outside being taken out by Itachi was the clan being ambushed by the Hokage and Anbu from behind.

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

From what we saw, they couldn't have lacked that much battle experience when their threat of a civil war was taken so serious and the best option outside being taken out by Itachi was the clan being ambushed by the Hokage and Anbu from behind.

i'm sorry battle exp. was bad wording...let's say everything was pretty lax for everyday living...kind of made them slouches/lazy...

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Unlimited chakra doesn't mean the body isn't finite. We have still witness multiple Edo summons affected by their own limitations. Heck, Itachi still bleeds when he uses Amaterasu, which would have nothing to do with his soul. We saw Itachi physically affected all throughout the fight with Kabuto. The addition of unlimited chakra merely that they can keep fighting forever and presumably spam techniques, though we still have yet to see any do so.

that's just a temporary bleed though

it's not that their bodies are infinite by being unable to get injured

it's that they recover after getting injured

in teh case of toxins, it's because the toxin paralytic effects are continuous and ongoing, i'm pretty sure if the toxins were stopped he'd instantly recover from paralysis, whereas a normal person would be pretty much down for the count.

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Given the way that databooks say it, it seems like it was always rare. Madara a was pretty much a prodigy, yet from what was shown, he didn't even awaken his Sharingan until later in life.

No. Madara awaken his sharingan when he was like sasuke or itachi as a genin. It was shown by itachi to sasuke. And i think we seen in the manga that all of uchiha who fought senju/any clan has the sharingan. Madara become a prodigy when he awaken his MS and later he awakened his EMS.

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Originally Posted by hyper_megaman

that's just a temporary bleed though

it's not that their bodies are infinite by being unable to get injured

it's that they recover after getting injured

in teh case of toxins, it's because the toxin paralytic effects are continuous and ongoing, i'm pretty sure if the toxins were stopped he'd instantly recover from paralysis, whereas a normal person would be pretty much down for the count.

The MS bleeding has always been temporary and we saw the poison's effect on a living person via Mifune. Point remains that the Edo summons have shown actual organ and the drawbacks to having them, which would have nothing to do with their souls.

Originally Posted by marshall313

No. Madara awaken his sharingan when he was like sasuke or itachi as a genin. It was shown by itachi to sasuke. And i think we seen in the manga that all of uchiha who fought senju/any clan has the sharingan. Madara become a prodigy when he awaken his MS and later he awakened his EMS.

First off, this was before the time of ninja ranks. Secondly, Madara and Izuna were shown in their teens, while Itachi and Sasuke were children. Madara was a prodigy before awakening MS/EMS and merely because we see a handful with the Sharingan doesn't mean every single one had it.

Re: Madara Vs Hashirama, Uchiha Vs Senju

Not really, the manga just shown that izuna and madara has some kind of training. That's maybe the reason why he become a prodigy. He awaken his sharingan even if he was just a child/genin and later he awaken his MS and EMS. I never said that everyone in the uchiha clan has the sharingan. but rather i just said that the sharingan isn't a rare to uchiha clan at that time.