I absolutely hate Ablative Shield. It's the cheesiest spell I've ever seen in any game, ever, and adds no depth anywhere. It only has one counter, which is questionable at best because it forces you to forgo Antimagic Field or else use a Rune of Solitude. It's completely pointless- more pointless, I would argue, than Main Gauches, Beaked Axes, and the new Evasion. And Decay.

Just wanted to get this off my chest. Man, it's hard not complaining for a few months! ;)

It's just too dang useful. I can see Junction maybe adding your minion's HP to the familiar (because that might actually make sense), but using AS just so your familiar has more health is lame. Mostly because it's too freaking cost-effective, and a Rune of Solitude on an AS minion is virtually immune to Dispel Magic, making the millions of health it adds impossible to get rid of except through pure damage. I certainly can't cut through 5 minions each with a million health, especially if PL+TSA is involved.

It just strikes me as stupid. Kind of like how the only way to beat anything in Titan Quest is to use potion spam. If you aren't healing constantly, you're dead. Just comes across as the most godforsakenly stupid "feature" one could implement.

Maybe that's a little harsh on AS but I've hated it since it came out back in what, 2003? 2004? And I always stick to my guns. :)

Along with that bloated AS comes increased effectiveness from GA (which, by the way, pwns me, since my CoC hits your four minions for around 80k and I take half that in GA damage). So what if your damage is low? You have 2 million total HP on your team, compared to my... what, 800k? I have to do 3 damage to your 1 to come out on top, which just doesn't happen thanks to your AMF (0.3) and your GA (which must be operating at nearly full capacity).

Perhaps if you didn't DELIBERATELY choose the most underpowered strategies you'd have a shot at beating me. Don't complain because you use a spell that's incredibly easy to counter and refuse to up the X on your MoD to a reasonable amount.

AS is not broken. It is just like any ED, efficient but with the DM counter. Which is fair, as well. If you do DM my AS, I have no hp! Sure, you forgo AMF, but hey, you win!

Of course it's darn useful, everything could use more HP. There isn't a time in the game when you go,"Gosh, a little less HP would be really nice right now!" But it isn't reliable. What's reliable? TSA + PL is reliable. training good hp with good defensive minion placement is reliable.

I don't understand your logic. Cheesy? Well, yeah every game needs some simple spells before you can get weird ones.

You are EXPECTED to increase your x at the same rate as you increase your ST in order to gain a linear increase in damage per hit... of course, nobody can afford that unless it's a "big five" weapon and you punch basically ALL your cash into weapon x alone.
So, yeah, actual damage you will be able to deal with a physical weapon ISN'T linear (not by a long shot) with team power (whereas magic damage is).
The good news, base physical damage is much higher than base magical damage. The bad news, magical damage gets over it pretty fast (but is vulnerable to AMF to some degree, too bad if you use none though) and doesn't really costs any CB$ to increase... not only that, but physical damage was severely nerfed compared to magical damage, so the intersection and take-over point is even closer now.

Well, at least a (ST/20)^0.6 or even better a (ST/20)^0.7 into weapon x and some extra on the plus, for more or less the same end-effect (assuming no evasion in play).
So... no... at 358800 ST, ideally you'd have the very least a x350-ish weapon or so, preferably much more (around x900-ish even wouldn't be that much of a stretch), with more than half in x instead of + if possible.

Heck, me, at my ST, I barely get above the ^0.6 factor on my ELBow, but at least I've got a decent plus to hit from the ToA (but have more "fake NW" into + from ToA than actual NW on the x).

Also just thought i'd point out i have 700k exp. invested in that hp. I have around 1.5 million hp invested in my ablative shield so far. I'm not going to lie with the results from up there ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ my previous post. I will admit it is a bit overpowered.

I don't really expect a nerf to AS. I honestly don't. I just think it's kind of over the top when it seems that nearly every single 4-minion team runs AS on a minion, and what sucks even more is when they use a Rune of Solitude. Yeah, they lose the power of other tattoos (especially familiars or the infamous ToA), but they gain a nigh-invulnerable AS. Unless there's some alternate way to plow through AS HP (besides "damage", lulz), these teams are so absurdly good it's hard to see a way to beat them.

Yes, my team sucks. Yes, I use underpowered strategies. I'm aware of this. But when someone 200k MPR below me beats me because they run 4-minion AS/GA/AMF, that's unfair. In fact, that's why I untrained 50% of my total experience out of AMF and got DM. I'm sick of dealing with AS, and would rather eat Fireballs than try to dig my way through disgusting 600k HP Enchanterwalls. >:|

And Cubicle, it works for you because you have a VERY untraditional strategy, your only damage sources being AMF and your RoBF. If you don't mind me asking, how large is your fightlist, and how many people farm you on a somewhat regular basis? It might be telling into who your strategy does and doesn't work against.

From my old CB1 standpoint, yes, using no "direct damage" (spells/weapons) is untraditional. Then again I'm still daydreaming about Finger of Death and Cause Fear, and I still get a little excited when I see a Lochaber Axe in the store. ;)

Maybe I just need to get used to the fact that CB will always change and I might as well use boring-as-hell strategies if I ever want to be competitive.

I'd much rather stick to my MoD/dual CoC team, but apparently that just sucks. ;)

Well, I'd repurpose the CoC minion as AS enchanter and dump all HP on the MoD minion into ST... and that would pretty much be "it", other than pumping the x on the MoD like mad :)
But that's just me :P

Badfish already pointed out that your MoD is severely under leveled. A 4.5M NW on your tank in a 2-minion setup at 750K MPR is extremely low. IF you don't plan on investing CB$ into items then don't play tanks.

DM works at 80% efficiency, does that mean equal xp in AS and DM, on different sides of course, will result in a small AS? So in a 5 minion team, only 1 of them train AS will ALWAYS give some sort of "bonus" HP for the XP invested? you need more XP then them to counter that extra AS, right?

>>Badfish already pointed out that your MoD is severely under leveled. A 4.5M NW on your tank in a 2-minion setup at 750K MPR is extremely low. IF you don't plan on investing CB$ into items then don't play tanks.

I refuse to spend USD to further my characters, and this is my first large character in CB2. I don't have assets somewhere else. I'm trying to liquidate what little I DO have so I can pour more cash into my MoD. I've recently (in the past month, that is) put about 3 million into buying new equipment, and another 4 million upgrading it. Yeah, my NW sucks, but I'm working on it. Slowly. ;)

>>DM works at 80% efficiency, does that mean equal xp in AS and DM, on different sides of course, will result in a small AS? So in a 5 minion team, only 1 of them train AS will ALWAYS give some sort of "bonus" HP for the XP invested? you need more XP then them to counter that extra AS, right?

I'm pretty sure DM will cancel out an AS of equal experience. AS might be more than 80% _cost effective_, but that doesn't mean it functions at above 80% _effectiveness_. DM effectively cancels the individual HP AS would give to each minion, not the total HP it grants. So DM is basically the only effective way to counter AS, but when you get a Rune of Solitude involved, it becomes MUCH more difficult to completely dispel.

"I refuse to spend USD to further my characters, and this is my first large character in CB2. I don't have assets somewhere else. I'm trying to liquidate what little I DO have so I can pour more cash into my MoD. I've recently (in the past month, that is) put about 3 million into buying new equipment, and another 4 million upgrading it. Yeah, my NW sucks, but I'm working on it. Slowly. ;) "

There's a great solution to your incredibly weak equipment. We call it "Rentals" When you run a NCB there's not much point in collecting gear if you dont have to, strategies change a few times along the way. And well frankly if your strategy is to barely hit and use a weak familiar then I get you are in the win zone. Remember you can never beat EVERYONE so just try to beat a spread on a certain basis. Unless it's Hal. Then you're screwed.

>>There's a great solution to your incredibly weak equipment. We call it "Rentals" When you run a NCB there's not much point in collecting gear if you dont have to, strategies change a few times along the way. And well frankly if your strategy is to barely hit and use a weak familiar then I get you are in the win zone. Remember you can never beat EVERYONE so just try to beat a spread on a certain basis. Unless it's Hal. Then you're screwed.

Ha, I suppose you have a point. Thanks for the strategy burn as well. ;)

I don't rent because... well, I'm not going to pay for something if I don't get to own it. Call me old-fashioned. Heh. Although perhaps I will start renting big weapons for my tank; I'm perfectly fine with his armor at the moment.

I'm able to beat quite a few people at or around my MPR, as well, so my strategy can't suck that badly. If I get to melee (which is somewhat difficult to do now that I untrained AMF), I tend to win in four rounds or less. Double Cone of Colds doing 500k damage to a single minion kills very quickly.

And yes, my tank sucks. Terribly. I'm hoping he's an investment. He might turn into another lame Enchanter of some sort although I really hope I get to keep a tank, because I like them. :)

Well, look at it this way : your DM adds up together if it's on multiple minions and is compared INDIVIDUALLY against each of the enemy's EDs.

So, in an equal XP invested situation on two of your minions with DM and two enemy minions with AS or any other ED, you completely wipe out his XP investment, and then some... heck, you'd actually need to only invest 62.5% of XP into DM, leaving you with 37.5% to spend on something else.
For 4 minions, it gets even funnier... you only need 31.25% XP in DM compared to his ED, rest of 68.75% can go elsewhere.

And since EDs only become really useful for 3 minions or more... yeah, all you need is just more DM.
Even if they use a RoS on a 4-minion team, you STILL can easily push out enough DM to wipe out the RoS protection AND all his ED without breaking a sweat... again, you just need a bit more DM, that's all.

Of course, against teams without EDs, you're kinda' screwed, since that's just wasted XP... but like (almost) everything in CB, that's by rock-paper-scissors design :)

>>Of course, against teams without EDs, you're kinda' screwed, since that's just wasted XP... but like (almost) everything in CB, that's by rock-paper-scissors design :)

The thing is, who DOESN'T use AS/GA? VA gets destroyed by even small DM's, and GS and Haste are hardly worth mentioning since so few people use them (and virtually no one does at high MPRs). However, it's a very tough decision for me between DM and AMF. I'll have to do some personal testing to figure that out.

And sickone, I always love reading your math-esque explanations. You know way more about CB than I do! :)

Borgin, I think you've been spending alot of time with dead characters in early game. Many dead teams have massive amounts of AS because AS was incredibly popular in CB1 I hear, and if AS is popular you can see why they use RoS. It's low budget and simple. But not really amazing. Training AS will not allow you to fight adnormally higher, it won't make your team overpowered. (many reasons, but my favorite is that mages *need* to have trained hp to deal with AMF, especially in 4 minion situation).

Nah man I sympathise with your tank situation. It's rough getting into Melee at all and managing to survive long enough to kill off the other team is incredibly tough. But choosing to put your ENTIRE TEAM in Melee probably wasn't a good idea. I only have one damage dealer and the rest is for support just getting down to melee and it still doesnt work most of the time.

but say if I have a 4 minion team, and only 1 of them have a ED, say 25% of XP in AS, don't you still need 31.25% of XP to fizzle it? which means you either need more XP in DM than me, or I will have some XP left in AS that works?

31.25% of your total XP to negate up to 100% (four times 25%) of enemy XP into ED (assuming equal levels of ED/EO boosting via items).
Of course, if the enemy only has one high level ED, you're at a slight disadvantage... but if the enemy has two high level ED, then it's your advantage now. If the enemy has 3 or even 4, you're at a huge advantage.
If the enemy has a RoS, then the advantage balance shifts more towards the ED user, but eventually it gets overcome... the DM resistance is 40% of tattoo level, and tattoo level is at best 50% of total levels on teams (at MTL ; normal-grown tattoos are at 2/3 of that, so 33.33%), so all in all you're looking at best at 20% XP protection, and usually at only 13.33% XP with a normally grown tattoo.

Worst case scenario on two equal MPR 4-minion equal XP distrib teams (tattoo at MTL and tattoo holder also has 100% of XP into ED), that's 25% team XP from ED raw, plus another 25% of team XP from the tattoo, and an additional 20% XP protection for a total 70% equivalent.
70%/0.8=87.5%, and that's how much of your team's total XP you'd need to push into DM to completely nullify any enemy ED... which, granted, is a bit high.
But that's basically the "worst case scenario".
In reality, especially at higher MPR, tattoos are usually at best at 66% of MTL (if that much), so it's 25%+16.66%+13.33%=55%, /0.8=68.75% of your total XP into DM to completely nullify all ED effects, even with a RoS on.
Buth in both cases, so much of your total XP into DM means you have little defence against non-ED teams, even if you completely obliterate any ED teams around.

ok, yes, but my point is that having 1 ED would be a gain against DM, so I just train a decent amount of innate HP and have 1 of my 4 train AS. Since AS is more effective than training HP with 4 minions, I am in a way better off regardless of you have DM or not.

I would really like DM to be more effective against a single ED. like 120% if target have single ED, 80% (80*2 = 160) if target have 2 ED, 60% (60*3 = 180), and 50% (50*4 = 200) if target have 4 ED. Of course, there is a problem of people training base ED to spread the DM, so the fight script need to incorporate some intelligence to tell which is the best option when presented with multiple EDs.

let me be a little more clear: I want DM to be LESS effective against a single ED, say, 70%? When presented with 2 ED, the DM could spread either A.Sufficient effectiveness to dispel the first ED entirely
OR
B.50% of total levels

Whichever comes first, and so on and so forth as more/less ED are presented at the beginning of the battle.
Thoughts?

DM is already plenty effective against AS and EDs in general. Frankly I feel the ratios are beautiful right now. besides, EDs are naturally more efficent with more minions, but it is easier to DM a small enchanter on a 4 minion team

Without AS a familiar would NEVER be able to survive more than 2-3 rounds from sheer backlash damage. My IF takes 1 million in AMF damage per round with 2.5 million HP (or Msk). Now tell me if AS is either useless or pointless.

Only one counter? Well, there is DM...and well...damage? By your argument HP has no counter. Hp obviously has more issues then?

I do love arguments with no logic or evidence, especially after a month chalk full of complaining.

>>Without AS a familiar would NEVER be able to survive more than 2-3 rounds from sheer backlash damage. My IF takes 1 million in AMF damage per round with 2.5 million HP (or Msk). Now tell me if AS is either useless or pointless.

Then, "logically", this is an issue with familiars. *rolls eyes*

If your IF is taking too much AMF damage, just get his CoC higher.

MY IF, on the other hand (although I realize I'm much lower than you), manages to survive a round into melee, which means two shots from CoC. Which means pain, and typically death. At least it is this low.

This is not whining. I expect no changes whatsoever. But there comes a time in everything where you simply have to let it out, and that's what this thread is. :)

three4ths, you certainly don't have to agree with me. I'm just saying that a spell that adds HP is the stupidest thing I've ever seen, and I've been saying that for months prior to writing this post.

Issue with familiar? Increase CoC? How do I do that? Leveling a tat isn't exactly the best plan. With 7.5 million base CoC, a AoF still gives me a better ratio increase, so even with 10 million CoC and big NSC, there is no way I'm going to ever reduce damage to a reasonable rate.

Should my IF be doomed then? There is no way around it, I can't just "pump up" my tat, without a N*B. Even then how big do I need it to be effective? Are we talking a 10 million base tat, just so I could almost have the option of a IF?

AS is a necessity for an IF in competitive play. It serves a use here, that would otherwise make one aspect (among others) of the game impossible to work with.

I know adding more points will only cause people to ignore my previous points, but I'll do so anyway.

Lets compare Hp to AS.

AS gives spread HP, it's more efficient level to effect ratio on multi-minion teams, boostable by Corn, and AoF. Extremely weak to DM. Synergy with AC

That means AS is meant to benefit more minions, which was what Jon encourages, we've got form and function right here. But with added efficiency comes a greater weakness, DM which is a good balancing factor. But there are other hidden balancing factors, by using more minions, it limits the amount of AS any one minion can train, hence putting a cap on the amount of AS any given minion can use, one can train more in other minions, but in effect it increases the vulnerability to DM. More balance!

Now lets look at HP. It's not boostable, but not hurt by DM. Gives more encumbrance (4 times) hence works great with AC or big equips.

Right off the bat, advantages over DM are obvious. Increases over enc allow for more armor, note that more AC = more effective HP (minus SG). AC is nothing to shake a leg at, combine it with MgS or other forms of reduction, the amount of rounds you will survive are much higher. With 70-80% damage reduction relatively easy to reach with proper investment, we really have to consider how much better is AS than HP. Is it at all? We can point at the AS and AoF effect, but then we can point at the HP and TSA effect. Me training 15 mil HP with a TSA and some good armor would definitely buy me more rounds than my gigantic AS, but I just have a little AMF problem...

AS useful? Yes. AS necessary? If some strats Need it to survive, yes. AS overpowered? No. Valid reasons to complain? Not so much.

My only "complaint" was my post that revived this thread, in which I clearly stated that the RoS COMBINED WITH AS is what's currently OP, if it can even be called that. I realize AS is very weak to DM, which is great, but with a fat RoS slapped onto an AS minion, not only does DM against it get significantly reduced, it also makes the AS that much more powerful. I had 4 million experience poured into a DM (giving me a DM of about 320k, which is low-ish for my level), which would've been enough to dispel almost any AS on a standard 4-minion team (or at least halve it). It didn't do this, however, and most of the time my DM did absolutely nothing to their AS, thanks to those stupid Runes of Solitude.

No, AS isn't overpowered. I think it's a stupid spell, but it isn't overpowered. I'm just very tired of AS+RoS/GA- in fact, I believe lostling has a character that does absolutely nothing but cast massive Ablative Shields and retaliate with a fat GA. Needless to say, I lose against him thanks to most of my damage coming from spread damage (4x GA retaliation FTL).

But then again, even this isn't necessarily _overpowered_. It can be countered with MM and straight weapon damage (non-SoD, naturally). But even then, a high AS/RoS/GA combination will occasionally beat fat MM's and high NW weapons...

I don't know. I'm just a child, and apparently I don't know anything about CB. =\

Hey, hey, we're not flaming you. People just disagree. I'm not going to go on it any longer, but I did want to say that everything isn't personal. It's a lesson I had to learn myself when I first started (and am still learning).

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