I like to introduce my "4C" concept, made up in 1975 :
http://www.xs4all.nl/~samzen/4c/quad.html
So far, there's a complete document in Dutch, but in Engish just a short description.
I'm planning to make a complete translation as well._________________0.618033988

I think this is a most interesting concept! I too have my little problems with the "standard" 5.1 speaker setup, which is completely film oriented and too dependent on visual clues. I have to admit that I must have completely missed the point of that 'centre' speaker in the front!

Anyway, I hope to be able to give this a go in the future, if at all practical in a normal room. Is there an ideal height that you have found? Also, how does it work for music mixing? I don't read Dutch, so I don't know if you have explained this.

Edit: Just realised the date of this thread, but I am still interested..._________________Muied Lumens Base Star

Yep, I noticed the date too, so I am pleasantly surprised by your reaction.

A very coincidence, because yesterday I installed some extra pc-hardware to be able to play 4C again.
After some years when my system couldn't handle it, due to windoze and sync problems.

So I was breeding lately about the idea of translating those pages once and for all.
And, after all those years, checking for silly nonsense.

Regarding being practical in a normal room :
If you've already chosen to put your stereo-system at one wall, L and R, then, apart from placing hooks or shelves, it's easier to place the second stereo-set higher up the same wall.
Than looking for surround positions in the room with all kinds of obstacles like doors or furniture.

The ideal height is of course dependent on the actual width of the speaker set Down.
Most rooms are not square cubes, so in practice the dimensions of a wall in a living room will be like a widescreen monitor, about 12 : 9.
To get a good reproduction it's important that speakers 3 and 4 are not tiny satellites, but qualified hiq speakers with the same power as the ones down on the floor. At least as close as it can.

Music mixing into 4 channels is another aspect.
Depends on the available equipment of course. Maybe two stereo-mixers, or one mixer, using a send out line for channel 3 and 4.

Mixing sounds in 4C has in fact a much stronger link with visuals than the surround thing.
Because it's filling a 'screen' in front of you with every sound at a certain X-Y position. Imagination.
Like in 2C, stereo, the 'imaginary' position of the source is dependent of its volume in each channel._________________0.618033988

If I ever get a gig where I am free to choose the speaker setup, I would go for 8C no doubt.

However, for the moment I am not able to experiment even with 4 speakers, let alone two. I will start with this the moment I get my normal studio space back and get two additional speakers. It has long been in my plans to get at least a quad setup.

My biggest problem will be corners. I am not too keen on placing a speaker near the ceiling, and in a corner too. When the time comes I will have to take a close look at what my options are. The room is not too tall, but I am sure I will be able to find a reasonable work-around.

It would be very interesting to read your thoughts on the subject if you decide to do the translation. _________________Muied Lumens Base Star

Hello!
Just came across this thread - very interesting indeed! Years ago I played around with quad for live performance and it was kind of cool. However your thoughts about vertical displacement add another 'dimension' to the equation. Tomita had started to play around with a similar concept called Pyramid sound...basically a 5 channel setup in the shape of a Pyramid with speakers at each of the corners. I would think that to maintain the left-right positioning you could probably do it with 6 channels, putting two speakers in the ceilings. It would not be as accurate for placing sounds as 8C would be - but might be a bit more economical.

With regards to a mixing sytem to do this - I would suggest looking at RML Labs Software Audio Console software. This software puts a rather comprehensive digital mixer into your PC (Windows software only though you can run it on MACS that are running Windows). It does have a surround panning system built in. You can read about it and download a demo here:
http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com

I have not incorporated the surround sound mode recently but have started looking at it again. The new tools that are out make it easier to do.

I understand your example of Tomita, adding a vertical element, but the problem with a lot of these multple speaker ideas is the fact, that they are not 'compatible' for default use.
Such settings are more part of the composition(s), than just a reproduction system.

Of course the idea of 'corners' doesn't have to be taken that strict, as with 'ceiling'.
Sometimes it isn't possible for various reasons, obstacles, doors, windows, etc.
The width and height of the 4C set should stay in proportion, seen from the hotspot.
For a quick monitoring I use a small speaker setup around my monitor, width 70 cm, height 50 cm._________________0.618033988

I've recently had the pleasure of hearing Sam's 4C system at his place, and it definitely sounds (excusez le mot) THE SHIT.

It is way more practical and enjoyable than the front-back system, less sensitive to listener's position, and very much enhances the clarity of sound by reducing frequency masking and intermodulation distortion.

It is truly a pity the industry has omitted 4C as the next and obvious step in expanding the spacial production of sound after going from mono to stereo.

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