Watching official stream, I noticed that vampires drink blood straight from the human's neck, while we all remember that in original Legacy of Kain vampires(at least Kain himself) sucked it by using telekinesis.
I think this ability must be also in Nosgoth, but as long as it gives some advantage before "classical" blood sucking(e.g., vampire can restore health from the corner, avoiding human's fire), telekinesis should open on high levels.
Also, I was thinking about not just "claws and turelim's ears"(btw, thanks for that and for advertency to our opinion :)) , but "full (d)evolved" form of vampires from the SR1. In some circumstances, it might be fit to the game style. For example, as the temporary transformation, increases damage and/or defence, but in which you're unable to use skills.
It will also be very cool if we'll see some familiar places. Towns from Blood Omen are obvious, but locations from Soul Reaver will be also great(and closer to the game's era) - The Silenced Cathedral(remember "courtyard" with buildings, which Raziel used to climb up to go further?), Melchiah's clan territory with a cemetery, and so on.

RainaAudron

8th Feb 2014, 10:14

Kain in Defiance could suck blood up close as well.

WraithShadow13

9th Feb 2014, 09:52

I prefer the up close and personal look they have now and TK might make it too good, depending on how far away you can do it from.

Maybe they could add an option that lets you pick between a few different Feeding animations? Default is the one is the class based, there would be the TK version, and a third option could be cross class animation?

JanusDominus

9th Feb 2014, 13:28

Yeah, just make it a different animation. I strongly oppose the idea of making TK Bloodsuck an ability, especially the one that gives high-levs an advantage.

Lord-Nexas

11th Feb 2014, 05:16

Personally, I'm just speaking my opinion, I never really liked the TK blood drain. I know its a trademark of LoK but, if we were to bring some realism into this. The human body is composed of 4.8 liters of blood. it would take ALOT longer then a 3 seconds to fully drain a corpse of blood. You can argue with me about how fast a vampire can drink from a human based on how face the suction is.

Still, TK blood feeding would take far to long compared to the suction of the mouth alone.

Vampmaster

11th Feb 2014, 08:01

Give the Melchiahim the TK blood suck ability. Daniel said they were blood manipulators and that could be considered a type of manipulation. Plus, if they're more fragile, they should compensate by having faster methods of recovery.

biribobili

11th Feb 2014, 12:52

I always hated the invisible straw in BO1 and 2 :/

Ambusher

13th Feb 2014, 08:55

I'm playing SR1 and right now in the Duma's territory. I think Nosgoth needs at least one snow map :)
By the way, what's about music? Will you include some of old LoK tunes in Nosgoth, or it's copyrights issues or something like this?

CountEyokir

13th Feb 2014, 11:29

Locations from LoK which are a must for future updates would be in my opinion -

Sanctuary of the Clans and the Pillars of Nosgoth - (site of importance for the Vampires and a prize for the Humans)

Drowned Abbey - (gothic architecture and water hazards to make the Rahabim's immunity to water essential)

Silenced Cathedral – (Considering Raziel knew about it, it must have been built and rendered harmless before he was thrown into the abyss. So exploration of this lore is a must)

Human Citadel – (Very Venice like architecture, Assassin Creed 2 look for certain - attacks by Vampire's trying to get in while Humans' man the battlements - so this map is for use in human defense mode only?)

Willendorf - (Ottmar - where art thou?)

Avernus – (Do I really need to explain why this is a must?)

Uschtenheim – (This place would have significance to both humans and Vampires due to it being a key location in the murder of Janos Audron)

Former Castle and lands of William the Just. (whatever that was called) – (Given his murder at Kain’s hands is what really drove the hatred of Vampire’s into the people for Moebius to manipulate, this would be a very good lore reference)

GeorgeCST

13th Feb 2014, 11:59

Awesome ideas, except for the Sanctuary of the Clans, (which i'm sure would look fantastic in Nosgoth) because it was the seat of Kain's empire, it's unlikely that humans ever got close to that place.

Monkeythumbz

13th Feb 2014, 15:45

Awesome ideas, except for the Sanctuary of the Clans, (which i'm sure would look fantastic in Nosgoth) because it was the seat of Kain's empire, it's unlikely that humans ever got close to that place.

^Agreed. We *want* to do the Pillars, but we are frankly a bit concerned about having Humans trample over such hallowed ground in this particular era. The Sanctuary of the Clans is intact and impenetrable by the time Raziel reaches it, it seems doubtful that Humans ever made their way into Kain's throne room.

CountEyokir

13th Feb 2014, 20:13

How about a map around the abyss itself? Like you're fighting on the cliffs with the swirling whirlpool in the background?

NickTsiou

14th Feb 2014, 02:37

Haven't you played Soul Reaver??? How could there be a battle there? The sentinels would just be picking up humans and throw them in with each round ending in 30-0

Khalith

14th Feb 2014, 03:27

^Agreed. We *want* to do the Pillars, but we are frankly a bit concerned about having Humans trample over such hallowed ground in this particular era. The Sanctuary of the Clans is intact and impenetrable by the time Raziel reaches it, it seems doubtful that Humans ever made their way into Kain's throne room.

Suggestion:

Imagine the humans made a monument to the pillars carved of white stone, a rallying point for the cause to fight for better times and wipe out the vampires before nosgoth fell to the horrible fate it is in now. It serves as a spiritual center for the humans and as such the vampires want it destroyed, to crush the humans morale entirely. Not to mention seeing the pillars in such a way before Kain ushered in their vampiric golden age? Every vampire would want them utterly destroyed. It's just a thought.

Cradlis

14th Feb 2014, 03:50

It's a little something but what about the clans and Kain's insigna? I know we still haven't seen any lands ruled by vampires yet, but I would like to suggest that you put flags here and there to show the players in which territory they are, plus a greater flag with Kain's symbol. That would be great and this data would help us, lore-eater, to estimate the boundaries of the clans :)

And seeing Kain's symbol would make me nostalgic for good ^^

CountEyokir

14th Feb 2014, 10:27

Haven't you played Soul Reaver??? How could there be a battle there? The sentinels would just be picking up humans and throw them in with each round ending in 30-0

You think I haven't been trying that in Freeport?
Apparently 'I' can do a dive into water and kill myself but the minute I try to drop a human into it the game won't let me. Which is why I said the whirlpool would be 'in the background' you can't reach it.

NickTsiou

14th Feb 2014, 12:52

LOL :P

Monkeythumbz

14th Feb 2014, 14:09

How about a map around the abyss itself? Like you're fighting on the cliffs with the swirling whirlpool in the background?

Not a bad idea at all, and certainly more likely than the Sanctuary of the Clans.

Vampmaster

14th Feb 2014, 14:35

Don't forget about the Undercity and the the Turelim clan territory (smoke stacks).

EDIT: BTW, I think Daniel might have described some of the reference material used to Raina for her project.

RedeemerAndDestr0yer

14th Feb 2014, 21:36

Ozar midrashim would be a very beautiful track, i hope to find it if they'll do this

Ambusher

14th Feb 2014, 22:19

Ozar midrashim would be a very beautiful track, i hope to find it if they'll do this
Others tracks from SR1 are good too, I'll be pleased if they add some remix of dumahim clan territory tune in Nosgoth.

Afreeby

15th Feb 2014, 00:23

Even if the humans never make it to the Pillars, it would be interesting if they were able to push kind of close. I'm thinking making a map of Termogent Forest, most likely around Vorador's Mansion. It is only a mountain range away from the Pillars, and I think it would probably be sort of sweet justice for humans to invade the lands of Kain's former vampiric mentor. Not to mention the lights from the swamp would give the battle ground a very eerie vibe.

Cradlis

15th Feb 2014, 07:45

I love Afreeby's idea. Plus, a map in a location near the Sanctuary of the Clans could be awesome : we could be able to see it at a not so far distance. The humans could tell themselves :

"It's been centuries since a free human has ever laid eyes on this place. We are near the heart of our enemy, the siege of Kain's empire. We must push on and take back the holy Pillars so they can be human's property once again and for all time! "

shinros

15th Feb 2014, 10:50

The sad fact is that humans should not even have the pillars I find the irony hilarious since them being humans they suck at the job.

Khalith

15th Feb 2014, 11:12

The sad fact is that humans should not even have the pillars I find the irony hilarious since them being humans they suck at the job.

Well the humans don't know that!

Vampmaster

15th Feb 2014, 12:25

Even if the humans never make it to the Pillars, it would be interesting if they were able to push kind of close. I'm thinking making a map of Termogent Forest, most likely around Vorador's Mansion. It is only a mountain range away from the Pillars, and I think it would probably be sort of sweet justice for humans to invade the lands of Kain's former vampiric mentor. Not to mention the lights from the swamp would give the battle ground a very eerie vibe.

I think the Termogent Forest would be dead or dying at this point in history due to the pillars no longer sustaining the land. It would be interesting to see in that sort of state. Maybe the match could be set on the border of the expanding decay of the land if it's radial like the devs have said or it could be more sporatic with patches of health and patches of dying if people prefer that.

The forest could be a pretty interesting place because IIRC the maps show that the cataclysms destroyed the parts of it near Abyss which expanded into the area and of course the ruins of Voradors mantion would be around there too.

shinros

15th Feb 2014, 12:40

Well the humans don't know that!

Which makes it even more funny to me they are killing off their salvation yet humans consider vampires their bane. Daniel said after defiance that Kain in his mind would most likely go back to the SR1 timeline and use the silent cathedral to kill of the rest of the clan vampires since well they are monsters now and start again since he can now make pure vampires to be guardians and nosgoth won't decay anymore since he is now pure.

Khalith

15th Feb 2014, 12:46

Which makes even more funny to me they are killing off their salvation. Daniel said after defiance that Kain in his mind would most likely go back to the SR1 timeline and use the silent cathedral to kill of the rest of the clan vampires since well they are monsters now and start again since he can now make pure vampires.

Yes, he will go through the effort of killing all of them followed by immediately thinking "boy I sure do want all those vampires back!" Creating a brand new breed of them! Wonder if he could use their souls trapped in the reaver to remake them? He shall name them, Melchiah 2: The Revenge, Rahab the Sequel, Zephon the Second, Turel II, Dumah Again (or Dumagain?), and Raziel the Thrice Risen.

Afreeby

16th Feb 2014, 15:52

Even though it's not a major thing, I would like to see at least a couple skins for each vampire clan with the traditional LoK style, meaning three fingers and hooves. Maybe as an unlock after playing a certain number of games, since it implies that your vampire is more evolved/devolved. Obviously it would only be cosmetic, but it would be a nice little reward for dedicated players. For the human side of it, I think that their classes should unlock Sarafan style robes. I even think that concept would fit into the lore of the time period, as I'm sure many of these vampire hunters would idolize the past feats of the Sarafan, and would want to emulate them. Like I said, these would all just be cosmetic skins, but they would definitely make the game more immersive to the series, at least for me.

shinros

16th Feb 2014, 20:14

Afreeby they are actually working on adult skins for the vampires if you check the blog.

TheMalgot

16th Feb 2014, 20:45

^Agreed. We *want* to do the Pillars, but we are frankly a bit concerned about having Humans trample over such hallowed ground in this particular era. The Sanctuary of the Clans is intact and impenetrable by the time Raziel reaches it, it seems doubtful that Humans ever made their way into Kain's throne room.

Easy: Implement Serafan- or Moebius-Civil-Army-Skins> Fight occurs between Serafans and Vampires in the past of Nosgoth, not in the Pre-SR1-Era -> Problem solved, vamps already look human-alike enough. Now give me a job as game designer and that pillars arena. :p

Anyway: To have more resemblences with the LoK-Lore, some of the remaining vampire-clans could use skills and perks, known from BO1. You know, for example, that "turning inside out" stuff.

Afreeby

16th Feb 2014, 21:12

I must of missed that. Thanks for the info! I still want the humans to get Sarafan styled armor eventually, so I hope they implement that as well.

Therealrabban

17th Feb 2014, 02:06

This Siege gameplay type could easily be used to showcase the defeat of Dumah at the hands of the human's. Turel's huge Smokestack as well as the Silenced Cathedral should be very prominent. One blots out most sunlight all over Nosgoth. It could also be a visual link for the various game maps, and letting you know how close you are to Vampire territory.

Adding Vorador, Janos Audron, The Seer or even The Hylden into the mix would help a ton. It's true that the Hylden are trapped because of the Pillars, but The Pillars are extremely dilapidated. Have maps that showcase areas from the series, Nupraptor's retreat collapsed at some point between Raziel's death and resurrection. The Eternal prison is also a very interesting place as well.

Show off more leather and skin, less armor on the vampires. The Dumahim are visually favored by most because he resembles the SR2 lieutenants. Get rid of the vampire pet names like Deceiver, Reaver, and Tyrant, Call them by their Sire's name. The Devs also mentioned that they were shocked that they did not add the clan symbols on the vampires...It's never too late to add a decal.

The Zephonim ability to mimic others should actually be a part of the Melchiahim class since they use the flesh of others to maintain themselves. The Zephonim should behave more like how the Dog alien Class behaves in Monolith's AVP2 multiplayer game. A fast runner on walls that can sneak up on you from a manhole cover, a ceiling or a wall and pounce you.

Telekinetic blood drinking has been a staple of the series since the late 90's. If the Dumahim drink any blood at close quarters they might as well have the Proboscis that all Dumahim had in SR1.

The human's probably could use a few Decals as well based on the Pillar guardians. Anacrothe's nature Symbol comes to mind.

That's about all I could think off at the top of my head.

CountEyokir

17th Feb 2014, 15:36

This Siege gameplay type could easily be used to showcase the defeat of Dumah at the hands of the human's. Turel's huge Smokestack as well as the Silenced Cathedral should be very prominent. One blots out most sunlight all over Nosgoth. It could also be a visual link for the various game maps, and letting you know how close you are to Vampire territory.

Adding Vorador, Janos Audron, The Seer or even The Hylden into the mix would help a ton. It's true that the Hylden are trapped because of the Pillars, but The Pillars are extremely dilapidated. Have maps that showcase areas from the series, Nupraptor's retreat collapsed at some point between Raziel's death and resurrection. The Eternal prison is also a very interesting place as well.

Show off more leather and skin, less armor on the vampires. The Dumahim are visually favored by most because he resembles the SR2 lieutenants. Get rid of the vampire pet names like Deceiver, Reaver, and Tyrant, Call them by their Sire's name. The Devs also mentioned that they were shocked that they did not add the clan symbols on the vampires...It's never too late to add a decal.

The Zephonim ability to mimic others should actually be a part of the Melchiahim class since they use the flesh of others to maintain themselves. The Zephonim should behave more like how the Dog alien Class behaves in Monolith's AVP2 multiplayer game. A fast runner on walls that can sneak up on you from a manhole cover, a ceiling or a wall and pounce you.

Telekinetic blood drinking has been a staple of the series since the late 90's. If the Dumahim drink any blood at close quarters they might as well have the Proboscis that all Dumahim had in SR1.

The human's probably could use a few Decals as well based on the Pillar guardians. Anacrothe's nature Symbol comes to mind.

That's about all I could think off at the top of my head.

- Not sure how you'd go about showing off plot elements unless you had a cooperative story campaign mode *hint hint developers!*

- They've already stated Hylden aren't going to make an appearance and the Hylden have no business appearing in this time period anyway

-Leather on the Vampires. YES 1000% totally agree. The fantasy armour thing the vampires have going for them is a must for a chance back to the gothic leather style seen in Soul Reaver. Without such a chance the Vampires only share the names of their SR counterparts.

- change the names of the vampire classes. I'm with you on this one too. Calling them deceiver, sentinel, Reaver etc - is burying the lore beneath the trappings of the game itself. The casual player isn't likely to get too involved in the lore if he has to read a text block to know the Reaver is part of clan Dumahim.

- I'd love to see long range blood drinking too for the sake of lore - but that might be a tad unbalanced. How about 'Blood Gout' ability? Like you can use your blood as a weapon. If you hit a human, you syphon off their health. If not, you wasted HP.

- Oh yes and on a personal note - add water hazards for Vampires. I don't want to be able to walk through puddles in Freeport barefoot anymore without something bad happening to me

Therealrabban

18th Feb 2014, 03:14

No storytelling mechanics here, The Siege gameplay could just have a moment where you see/use Nupraptor's retreat in the background, or make it a possible weapon, goal, obstacle.

I know they stated their disinterest in using the Hylden. It was just an example. What I was getting at is they could take a page from one of the Starwars multiplayer games. Have a powerful NPC show up in battle. you'd be minding your own business and "Crap it's Luke Skywalker!"

As far as the TK blood drinking I don't think it should be used exactly like the previous games. It's a slow process that leaves the vampire open for attack but If you had a healer class they could TK blood to their teammates...but not exactly like Team fortress 2.
let it be a group TK. It heals the vampire but may also reveal his location.

One thing I'm really saddened by is the Razielim character design. I understand the story excuses for creating the monster look but it would have been nice to see a more suffering human faced vampire with bat wings. A great call back to how ticked off Raziel was for his race's destruction.

Water traps could be cool.

Female Vampires too.

Cradlis

18th Feb 2014, 07:34

It has been stated that the next vampire class is going to be female.

faeral

18th Feb 2014, 09:35

building on Eyokir's campaign idea:

2 campaigns, human & vampire.

the campaign would consist of all available maps in a certain arrangement with a simple lore-based introduction ( no voice overs or animated sequences necessary ) to the fight taking place there. since we are essentially controlling the soldiers of an ongoing war, there doesn't need to be a cohesive plot that has plot devices & protagonists, we just need a setup for why a conflict is taking place in this location.

since we already have created lore for each map location & all classes, this would be an avenue to utilize these resources which already exist ( great place to use concept art as well ).

you could have a single player/co-op campaign vs AI & a full multiplayer campaign. in both cases, you would need to win your match in order to progress to the next battlefront.

one of the main draws to this would be that you could actually choose 1 faction to play through all maps with. i know the asymmetrical design lends to playing both sides for balance, but a game mode where one could support solely 1 faction would add dramatic weight to the encounters & give casual players a way to "bond" with a particular class & playstyle more intensely.

the vampire campaign could start in the vampire-based maps & progress into the human-based maps, with the human campaign being reversed ( i know we don't have vampire maps yet, but we will ).

* * *

also, i agree with renaming vamp classes to their clan names.

Gugulug5000

18th Feb 2014, 19:54

^Agreed. We *want* to do the Pillars, but we are frankly a bit concerned about having Humans trample over such hallowed ground in this particular era. The Sanctuary of the Clans is intact and impenetrable by the time Raziel reaches it, it seems doubtful that Humans ever made their way into Kain's throne room.

I don't understand why the Sanctuary of the Clans is such a bad idea. Raziel describes it in SR1 "reduced to ruin" and "collapsing into the dust of its former magnificence," implying that it was either attacked and destroyed, or the vampires were not maintaining/manning it well enough. Within the sanctuary Kain also says "Look around you Raziel. See what has become of our empire!" Clearly the Sanctuary of the Clans was not in pristine condition.

When people mention that it doesn't look damaged enough for a battle to have taken place there, I just think about how much time has passed. How much time has passed between Raziel's execution and the events of SR1? I've heard somewhere between 500 and 2000 years. Is it so unlikely that the vampires repaired the sanctuary after it was attacked? I mean, the White House in the United States was burned to the ground in 1814, yet miraculously is still around 200 years later. An enemy force attacking, and even completely destroying a key location is not completely unbelievable.

Furthermore, the flag of Clan Razielim is still seen in the Sanctuary, implying that either the Sanctuary fell into disuse before the Razielim were wiped out (ie during the events of Nosgoth), or the vampires were too lazy to take down his flags, the latter seeming very unlikely.

If the problem in including the Sanctuary of the Clans is because it is buried too deeply in Kain's empire to be a likely target, then it's a little more understandable, but who is to say that the humans did not have some last, desperate attack where they rallied all their men and charged deep into the empire, bent on destroying the seat of Kain's empire? Controlling a point of interest like the sanctuary would be very beneficial to the humans, and therefore it would seem like a smart decision to attack the sanctuary.

Also, it seems that everyone is under the misconception that if the humans attack the sanctuary, then they must have been successful and destroyed it. Couldn't the humans attack the sanctuary and fail (in the lore, clearly not in every match)? Were that the case, the sanctuary could remain mostly intact, and still resemble the sanctuary that appears in SR1. No lore is trampled upon.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the Sanctuary of the Clans is being excluded from the picture too hastily. I would love to see it in the game, and I think it would be a nice way to tie Nosgoth in to the main series.

CountEyokir

19th Feb 2014, 10:24

Also, it seems that everyone is under the misconception that if the humans attack the sanctuary, then they must have been successful and destroyed it. Couldn't the humans attack the sanctuary and fail (in the lore, clearly not in every match)? Were that the case, the sanctuary could remain mostly intact, and still resemble the sanctuary that appears in SR1. No lore is trampled upon.

Given we know the Humans loose this war and end up trapped inside their own Citadel then its an easy assumption to make

Vampmaster

19th Feb 2014, 10:39

Given we know the Humans loose this war and end up trapped inside their own Citadel then its an easy assumption to make

I don't think they were necessarily *all* trapped in the citadel. Raziel mentions in the manual, that a few feral humans remained in the hinterlands and his information was a few centuries of out of date when he emerged from the abyss. I don't want to jump to the conclusion that there were somehow billions of humans hanging around, but I have a hard time believing that Nosgoth was small enough for Raziel to run from one side to the other in less than an hour like in SR1.

CountEyokir

19th Feb 2014, 10:48

I don't think they were necessarily *all* trapped in the citadel. Raziel mentions in the manual, that a few feral humans remained in the hinterlands and his information was a few centuries of out of date when he emerged from the abyss. I don't want to jump to the conclusion that there were somehow billions of humans hanging around, but I have a hard time believing that Nosgoth was small enough for Raziel to run from one side to the other in less than an hour like in SR1.

I don't think his ability to go that far in hours in 'in game time' really makes that much lore difference as you could just say that was the limits of the game hardware at the time. It'd be more realistic to assume Raziel spent days traveling to get from place to place, time they really couldn't show in the game itself.

As for the hinterlands thing, that was used to justify the Red Sisters lore at the start of the war- by then Raziel's knowledge would have been up to date about the human's living arrangements and I'm pretty sure with Nosgoth lying, producing less and less food and the vampires all turning into unstoppable monsters it would be more reasonable for them to combine what forces they have left into one easy to defend place

Vampmaster

19th Feb 2014, 11:13

I don't think his ability to go that far in hours in 'in game time' really makes that much lore difference as you could just say that was the limits of the game hardware at the time. It'd be more realistic to assume Raziel spent days traveling to get from place to place, time they really couldn't show in the game itself.

That was my point. It would be unrealistic to assume Nosgoth in SR1 (or even BO1) would be to scale. The devs in past games have been intentionally vague on whether Nosgoth is supposed to be a county, country, continent or planet. It makes it very difficult to estimate it's population for both humans and vampires.

IMO, Kain's empire would be comparable to the Roman empire, with the heartlands being comparable to Italy and Meridian to Rome itself. However it could easily be much smaller, because of the ambiguity I mentioned above.

As for the hinterlands thing, that was used to justify the Red Sisters lore at the start of the war- by then Raziel's knowledge would have been up to date about the human's living arrangements and I'm pretty sure with Nosgoth lying, producing less and less food and the vampires all turning into unstoppable monsters it would be more reasonable for them to combine what forces they have left into one easy to defend place

It depends what Raziel means by "a few". It could be relative to the size of the entire empire and the vampires were pretty arrogant anyway. Hiding and scattering might be the best way for some humans to survive, since it would conceal their numbers.

Monkeythumbz

19th Feb 2014, 12:42

I don't understand why the Sanctuary of the Clans is such an bad idea. Raziel describes it in SR1 "reduced to ruin" and "collapsing into the dust of its former magnificence," implying that it was either attacked an destroyed, or the vampires were not maintaining/manning it well enough. Within the sanctuary Kain also says "Look around you Raziel. See what has become of our empire!" Clearly the Sanctuary of the Clans was not in pristine condition.

When people mention that it doesn't look damaged enough for a battle to have taken place there, I just think about how much time has passed. How much time has passed between Raziel's execution and the events of SR1? I've heard somewhere between 500 and 2000 years. Is it so unlikely that the vampires repaired the sanctuary after it was attacked? I mean, the White House in the United States was burned to the ground in 1814, yet miraculously is still around 200 years later. An enemy force attacking, and even completely destroying a key location is not completely unbelievable.

Furthermore, the flag of Clan Razielim is still seen in the Sanctuary, implying that either the Sanctuary fell into disuse before the Razielim were wiped out (ie during the events of Nosgoth), or the vampires were too lazy to take down his flags, the latter seeming very unlikely.

If the problem in including the Sanctuary of the Clans is because it is buried too deeply in Kain's empire to be a likely target, then it's a little more understandable, but who is to say that the humans did not have some last, desperate attack where they rallied all their men and charged deep into the empire, bent on destroying the seat of Kain's empire? Controlling a point of interest like the sanctuary would be very beneficial to the humans, and therefore it would seem like a smart decision to attack the sanctuary.

Also, it seems that everyone is under the misconception that if the humans attack the sanctuary, then they must have been successful and destroyed it. Couldn't the humans attack the sanctuary and fail (in the lore, clearly not in every match)? Were that the case, the sanctuary could remain mostly intact, and still resemble the sanctuary that appears in SR1. No lore is trampled upon.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the Sanctuary of the Clans is being excluded from the picture too hastily. I would love to see it in the game, and I think it would be a nice way to tie Nosgoth in to the main series.
This is actually a very compelling argument. Btw, the length of time Raziel falls down the Abyss is close to a millennium long and Nosgoth is set in the intervening period.

CountEyokir

19th Feb 2014, 14:08

If this has been brought up before forgive me but - I had a thought - Nupraptor's retreat. We see that in Soul Reaver the skull shaped fortress has fallen from the cliff it once sat on. Perhaps this was done by Human explosives to take out the Vampires within? And perhaps that can be incorporated into a mission specific map in-game?

Therealrabban

19th Feb 2014, 20:31

No, forgive me if I was not the first but I brought up that point as well.

Gugulug5000

19th Feb 2014, 23:09

This is actually a very compelling argument. Btw, the length of time Raziel falls down the Abyss is close to a millennium long and Nosgoth is set in the intervening period.
I'm glad you thought so, and it's good to get a definite time frame for how long Raziel was gone, so thanks for that. Great game so far, Monkeythumbz, and I think it's awesome that you guys are so involved with the community. Keep up the great work!

Inrezairo

19th Feb 2014, 23:47

For a vampire map how about a statue of Kain?

NaughtyPeon

19th Feb 2014, 23:55

I think it will be a cool ability power, especially for Tyrant since he is more of a tank. Would be really awesome to siphon health in a small radius from your enemies or have some form of blood armor.

Bucky91

20th Feb 2014, 06:01

I don't understand why the Sanctuary of the Clans is such a bad idea. Raziel describes it in SR1 "reduced to ruin" and "collapsing into the dust of its former magnificence," implying that it was either attacked and destroyed, or the vampires were not maintaining/manning it well enough. Within the sanctuary Kain also says "Look around you Raziel. See what has become of our empire!" Clearly the Sanctuary of the Clans was not in pristine condition.

When people mention that it doesn't look damaged enough for a battle to have taken place there, I just think about how much time has passed. How much time has passed between Raziel's execution and the events of SR1? I've heard somewhere between 500 and 2000 years. Is it so unlikely that the vampires repaired the sanctuary after it was attacked? I mean, the White House in the United States was burned to the ground in 1814, yet miraculously is still around 200 years later. An enemy force attacking, and even completely destroying a key location is not completely unbelievable.

Furthermore, the flag of Clan Razielim is still seen in the Sanctuary, implying that either the Sanctuary fell into disuse before the Razielim were wiped out (ie during the events of Nosgoth), or the vampires were too lazy to take down his flags, the latter seeming very unlikely.

If the problem in including the Sanctuary of the Clans is because it is buried too deeply in Kain's empire to be a likely target, then it's a little more understandable, but who is to say that the humans did not have some last, desperate attack where they rallied all their men and charged deep into the empire, bent on destroying the seat of Kain's empire? Controlling a point of interest like the sanctuary would be very beneficial to the humans, and therefore it would seem like a smart decision to attack the sanctuary.

Also, it seems that everyone is under the misconception that if the humans attack the sanctuary, then they must have been successful and destroyed it. Couldn't the humans attack the sanctuary and fail (in the lore, clearly not in every match)? Were that the case, the sanctuary could remain mostly intact, and still resemble the sanctuary that appears in SR1. No lore is trampled upon.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the Sanctuary of the Clans is being excluded from the picture too hastily. I would love to see it in the game, and I think it would be a nice way to tie Nosgoth in to the main series.
THIS!^^^^ Sanctuary of the clans and the pillars are a must.
Also to make it more like legacy of kain you could -
1. Make sure all 6 vampire clans make it into the game
2. Add clan symbols onto clothing of the vampires
3. Rework some popular songs of the old games and add them into the game
4. Add more recognizable maps such as:Sanctuary of the clans(obviously it is needed for pilars), Silenced cathedral, Avernus, Willendorf, Nupraptor's retreat, Dumahs fortress, Dark Eden, Termogent forest, Turels area(with the smoke stacks), and Malek's bastion

Therealrabban

20th Feb 2014, 06:13

Everybody is basically saying the same thing, location, clan symbols and what not. but I think a focus on the classes could help. It's probably too late to fix the character animation and actions but the Zephonhim being a deceiver seems way off. He should be similar to what the Dumahim is. The Dumahim Should be more like what the Turelim is, and the Turelim should be more of a sort of defensive TK class.

GeorgeCST

20th Feb 2014, 07:23

Everybody is basically saying the same thing, location, clan symbols and what not. but I think a focus on the classes could help. It's probably too late to fix the character animation and actions but the Zephonhim being a deceiver seems way off. He should be similar to what the Dumahim is. The Dumahim Should be more like what the Turelim is, and the Turelim should be more of a sort of defensive TK class.

The next map will be in vampire territory according to an article and there will be clan symbols and whatnot, and i'm, sure there will be classic skins with clan colored sashes and stuff like that.

Also regarding classes, everyone seems to have their own idea of how the clans were and the vampires' abilities. Also making the turelim defensive defeats the purpose of the game. Vampires are the aggressors in Nosgoth and the Turelim is the largest so he can break ranks and make the humans scatter when they're together.

I also think they explained pretty well why the Deceiver has mind powers with the vampire worshippers and whatnot. I personally think the classes look good so far and i'm 100% sure there will be people that won't agree with anything they do because they have preconceived ideas.

Therealrabban

20th Feb 2014, 09:13

It's not so much that I have an opinion without evidence, I'm just looking for some sort of consistency with the game and the rest of the series, this thread is all about that.

The Zephonim devolved into a spider like race. I'd assume that would mean spider like abilities. The Turelim are predominately TK specialists so a defensive nature would make more sense. If all the Razielim that survived had time enough to evolve wings bigger than their sire, and can fly. Why are the Zephonim given elongated limbs that they don't use to pounce, climb, or walk on ceilings?

As far as the backstory for the Zephonim abilities it seems kinda strange that Kain would allow Zephon to force evolve his race.
If the intro to SR1 is stating a fact that Kain would always evolve first then why would Zephon choose to alter his entire race? Kain might return and wipe him and his offspring off like Raziel?

I'm going to enjoy the game regardless. It's free to play and it has vampires in it, but I'm still on the fence on whether or not it's a Legacy of Kain game.

CountEyokir

20th Feb 2014, 09:51

I'm going to enjoy the game regardless. It's free to play and it has vampires in it, but I'm still on the fence on whether or not it's a Legacy of Kain game.

So am I. largely my problem is the lack of anything Kain-ey in what was advertised, at least at first. Playing the alpha I said "This is quite fun actually - but running through everything I know about all the games from Blood Omen to Defiance, what has this to do with any of them?" I found surprisingly little. I'm hoping to see a lot of improvement in the beta and then other updates but...yeah massive improvements necessary and such improvements have to be more Kain, more Kain, more Kain and more Kain.
Statues of Kain, Raziel and perhaps other vampires patriachs in their territory would be great.

Vampmaster

20th Feb 2014, 10:37

So am I. largely my problem is the lack of anything Kain-ey in what was advertised, at least at first. Playing the alpha I said "This is quite fun actually - but running through everything I know about all the games from Blood Omen to Defiance, what has this to do with any of them?" I found surprisingly little. I'm hoping to see a lot of improvement in the beta and then other updates but...yeah massive improvements necessary and such improvements have to be more Kain, more Kain, more Kain and more Kain.
Statues of Kain, Raziel and perhaps other vampires patriachs in their territory would be great.

I really want to see the Lieutenants show up in some form. Either in a special came mode if it can be made to feel appropriate or just statues and murals like you suggest.

IIRC, the blog mentioned a giant statue of Kain in Coorhagen, but I also remember someone saying something like that would take up time that could be spent on a new map or class. In terms of artwork, I think a possible solution, would just be to let fans submit their own. Since it would be used for in-game art (including statues), it wouldn't have to be a perfect match either, since the artists and sculptors in the story would have taken license just like the artists in real life who submitted the models.

If they need a model of Kain, they could just ask The_Hylden to let them use the very high detailed one he's been working on. I won't post a link, as he'd probably want to reveal it himself when finished.

Monkeythumbz

20th Feb 2014, 13:11

For a vampire map how about a statue of Kain?
There's giant statue of Kain in Coorhagen.

It's not so much that I have an opinion without evidence, I'm just looking for some sort of consistency with the game and the rest of the series, this thread is all about that.

The Zephonim devolved into a spider like race. I'd assume that would mean spider like abilities. The Turelim are predominately TK specialists so a defensive nature would make more sense. If all the Razielim that survived had time enough to evolve wings bigger than their sire, and can fly. Why are the Zephonim given elongated limbs that they don't use to pounce, climb, or walk on ceilings?
The Zephonim are described as (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1936#p1936)“Spies, alchemists, assassins” and that their Lieutenant, Zephon, is (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3925#p3925) “scheming and suspicious, always sending spies out and seeking information to exploit a weakness. He preferred the art of the ambush, attacking indirectly. He saw the value in planning for the future, and had the greatest stock of blood in storage, sometimes using it to barter.” On our blog, we’ve also said that the Zephonim were (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/alchemists-arcane-cultists-with-a-thirst-for-revenge) “eager to compete in raw power with the elder Clans, attempted to artificially shape and force their metamorphoses through ritual self-torture, alchemical engineering and twisted breeding programs”, which explains their camouflage and psychic knife-type abilities, as well as their tortured visual appearance.

I’ve also said on the forums that (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8484&p=78012#post78012) “Bear in mind that the effects Nupraptor's curse (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Corruption_of_the_Pillars) were primarily influenced by each Lieutenant's psyche - it's those more psychological aspects of Zephon and his Clan that we'd be looking to explore with the Zephonim.” This is backed up by Daniel Cabuco’s post here (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2217#p2217), where he says “Nupraptor's curse was a form of madness, which effected each person differently. For Kain, it influenced his physical evolution (because it’s influenced by the mind and personality). Think of it as a sort of genetic disorder that hampers the mind, simplifying it into its more base needs. Kain's willpower and mind were significant, but his sons were passed the tainted gifts, and were less well equipped to deal with it.”

Given that Daniel Cabuco says (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Zephon#Personality) that “Zephon isn't necessarily the smartest, or the best fighter, but he is one of the most cunning. Working the politics with expert precision as a spiderweb of lies. [...] this eventually led to his dark gifts and mutation direction”, the Deceiver is clearly and appropriately representative of Clan Zephonim.

As far as the backstory for the Zephonim abilities it seems kinda strange that Kain would allow Zephon to force evolve his race.
If the intro to SR1 is stating a fact that Kain would always evolve first then why would Zephon choose to alter his entire race? Kain might return and wipe him and his offspring off like Raziel?
Kain is far more aware of the nature and effects of both vampiric evolution and Nupraptor's curse than his progeny. He knows full well that regardless of how the Zephonim may try various methods to influence or direct their nature physically, the destination will always be the same due to Zephon's very own psyche and as such any short-term gains will be proven ultimately futile. Additionally, Zephon would be well aware of the differences in trying to further a Clan's evolution by alchemical or other means and an unbidden leap forward like evolving wings - the former would not be perceived as great a threat to Kain as the gains were comparatively small and much harder won.

IIRC, the blog mentioned a giant statue of Kain in Coorhagen, but I also remember someone saying something like that would take up time that could be spent on a new map or class. In terms of artwork, I think a possible solution, would just be to let fans submit their own. Since it would be used for in-game art (including statues), it wouldn't have to be a perfect match either, since the artists and sculptors in the story would have taken license just like the artists in real life who submitted the models.
Having members of the community generate an initial piece of concept art for lore-specific map features (e.g. statues, murals, artefacts etc.) is by no means a bad idea and we'd welcome submissions, just so long as there was no expectation on the part of the creator that we would end up using or even commit to using any of the art they generated.

Therealrabban

21st Feb 2014, 02:02

Hi MonkeyThumbz, Thanks for responding. The logic is undeniable and the links to Daniel's forum backup it up as well. This is all new credible lore to me, and offers a take on the Necro based vampires that I never saw. It seemed as though none of Kain's brood had the crazy magical abilities that the blood based vampires had and that's why all of this magic using seems out of line.

With that said, I know it's supposed to be watertight, but it's felt like a deliberate distancing of the Nosgoth game away from the rest of the series was occurring. Maybe I'm being just a tiny little bit obsessive but...

1. With the player's character being a vampire.
2. With the player's character having lost all of his health.
3. With the player's character immobile.

Result: Player's character dies.

Additional Info: Vampires heal until they are impaled or inflamed.

I mean come on that's a B Gameplay if I ever saw one amiright? :nut:

Monkeythumbz

21st Feb 2014, 16:27

Maybe I'm being just a tiny little bit obsessive but...

1. With the player's character being a vampire.
2. With the player's character having lost all of his health.
3. With the player's character immobile.

Result: Player's character dies.

Additional Info: Vampires heal until they are impaled or inflamed.

I mean come on that's a B Gameplay if I ever saw one amiright? :nut:

I'm not 100% sure what it is you're asking here, would you mind clarifying your question? Sorry if I'm being a bit dense...

Therealrabban

21st Feb 2014, 18:03

Sorry I was just being cheeky, that's how game bugs were written a few years ago. What I was getting at is a vampire can only die from being impaled or inflamed, so do vampires who die in Nosgoth ever get impaled?

Ambusher

21st Feb 2014, 18:33

I think vampires in Nosgoth are too young. Fully evolved vampires from SR1 can only die from impaling/fire/water/sunlight, when younger species are more fragile.

GenFeelGood

21st Feb 2014, 18:56

How about the ruined city of Avernus with Avernus Cathedral in the background. For a vampire city there is perhaps the town of Uschtenheim in central Nosgoth, given to the Razielim as a place to call home and where they can be closely watched by the other clans, with Janos' Retreat in the background being rebuilt so it can once again be occupied by vampires with the gift of flight.

Icechevalier

21st Feb 2014, 19:05

You can add the Razielhim (Raziel clan vampires).

Chaostos

21st Feb 2014, 20:10

THIS!^^^^ Sanctuary of the clans and the pillars are a must.
Also to make it more like legacy of kain you could -
1. Make sure all 6 vampire clans make it into the game
2. Add clan symbols onto clothing of the vampires
3. Rework some popular songs of the old games and add them into the game
4. Add more recognizable maps such as:Sanctuary of the clans(obviously it is needed for pilars), Silenced cathedral, Avernus, Willendorf, Nupraptor's retreat, Dumahs fortress, Dark Eden, Termogent forest, Turels area(with the smoke stacks), and Malek's bastion
Yep, more representation of clans\LoK culture\lore friendly Locations to fight on would be sweet for sure.
And 1 song I would love to see for sure is LoK SR2 Ariel's Lament "Kane Refuses the sacrifice",
hypnotic\pumping adrenaline song. <3

Therealrabban

21st Feb 2014, 23:53

I think vampires in Nosgoth are too young. Fully evolved vampires from SR1 can only die from impaling/fire/water/sunlight, when younger species are more fragile.
~Ambusher

Vampires tend to get Impaled quite often in this world, It's just another common thing in the series. The only other ways to kill a vampire outside of the common 3 are decapitation, pulling the heart out of the body, and vein absorption. In hindsight the only true way to kill a vampire is through burning them somehow...but impaling looks really cool!

Khalith

22nd Feb 2014, 00:21

You can add the Razielhim (Raziel clan vampires).

They already did. >_> Look at the Lore section with the Sentinel.

Gugulug5000

26th Feb 2014, 03:28

I don't understand why the Sanctuary of the Clans is such a bad idea. Raziel describes it in SR1 "reduced to ruin" and "collapsing into the dust of its former magnificence," implying that it was either attacked and destroyed, or the vampires were not maintaining/manning it well enough. Within the sanctuary Kain also says "Look around you Raziel. See what has become of our empire!" Clearly the Sanctuary of the Clans was not in pristine condition.

When people mention that it doesn't look damaged enough for a battle to have taken place there, I just think about how much time has passed. How much time has passed between Raziel's execution and the events of SR1? I've heard somewhere between 500 and 2000 years. Is it so unlikely that the vampires repaired the sanctuary after it was attacked? I mean, the White House in the United States was burned to the ground in 1814, yet miraculously is still around 200 years later. An enemy force attacking, and even completely destroying a key location is not completely unbelievable.

Furthermore, the flag of Clan Razielim is still seen in the Sanctuary, implying that either the Sanctuary fell into disuse before the Razielim were wiped out (ie during the events of Nosgoth), or the vampires were too lazy to take down his flags, the latter seeming very unlikely.

If the problem in including the Sanctuary of the Clans is because it is buried too deeply in Kain's empire to be a likely target, then it's a little more understandable, but who is to say that the humans did not have some last, desperate attack where they rallied all their men and charged deep into the empire, bent on destroying the seat of Kain's empire? Controlling a point of interest like the sanctuary would be very beneficial to the humans, and therefore it would seem like a smart decision to attack the sanctuary.

Also, it seems that everyone is under the misconception that if the humans attack the sanctuary, then they must have been successful and destroyed it. Couldn't the humans attack the sanctuary and fail (in the lore, clearly not in every match)? Were that the case, the sanctuary could remain mostly intact, and still resemble the sanctuary that appears in SR1. No lore is trampled upon.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the Sanctuary of the Clans is being excluded from the picture too hastily. I would love to see it in the game, and I think it would be a nice way to tie Nosgoth in to the main series.

I would like to add a new point to my previous statement about why the Sanctuary of the Clans should be in game. After watching my brother play through Soul Reaver again, we noticed that there was a hallway blocked off by a collapsed ceiling or wall, which goes to support the argument that there was probably a battle there at some point. The only other explanation for this besides a battle, would be that vampires are just not very good at architecture and the Sanctuary began to fall down through time (unlikely). Though it definitely doesn't necessarily state that there was a battle there at some point, it definitely implies it, and there is visible damage to the Sanctuary.

Monkeythumbz

26th Feb 2014, 15:12

I would like to add a new point to my previous statement about why the Sanctuary of the Clans should be in game. After watching my brother play through Soul Reaver again, we noticed that there was a hallway blocked off by a collapsed ceiling or wall, which goes to support the argument that there was probably a battle there at some point. The only other explanation for this besides a battle, would be that vampires are just not very good at architecture and the Sanctuary began to fall down through time (unlikely). Though it definitely doesn't necessarily state that there was a battle there at some point, it definitely implies it, and there is visible damage to the Sanctuary.

Any chance you could post a screengrab of that section/area, please?

Bucky91

26th Feb 2014, 21:12

Any chance you could post a screengrab of that section/area, please?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qavwh4Vjv34
The part he is talking about is at 3:49 in the video.

Gugulug5000

26th Feb 2014, 23:22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qavwh4Vjv34
The part he is talking about is at 3:49 in the video.
Yup, that's it. It's a little difficult to see in the video (pausing at 3:50 may get you a better view of it at the end of the hall), and we may be able to get a better shot for you Monkeythumbz if you want another one. I do have it on the Playstation though (not PC) so getting a shot would involve taking a picture with a phone and emailing it so that it can be uploaded.

NaughtyPeon

27th Feb 2014, 08:32

I think that The Silenced Cathedral would be an awesome map choice, it would be really cool to see it in form of a gigantic musical instrument/organ with all the gigantic pipes and steam around the structure itself. Also if possible I would love for there to be a map based in or around Voradors Mansion, or the swamps and forests that surround it with Mansion somewhere in the distance. You can see how beautiful it is in Defiance if you wish to check it out. Kain also mentions it in Blood Omen as a place of both beauty and horror, its dungeons were filled with human cattle. I'm sure someone will point out that because of its location and fear of Vorador himself many feared to go there, however I believe its plausible for a pack of hunters or mercenaries venture there in attempts to save a damsel in distress or two.

Acambogenous

16th Mar 2014, 04:36

I think it would be quite a shame not to include the Pillars/Sanctuary in the game. For one thing, it would make a more logical tie-in to the Nosgoth logo: the Pillars' dais. Without including the Pillars, the logo holds tangential relevance to the game and seems to serve as nothing more than an interesting design. Most of the setting in this game seems to revolve around human civilizations and seems to avoid the Pillars, which are central to both the condition and the history of Nosgoth.

With the exception of Blood Omen 2 (though the opening FMV made a nod towards it), all of the Legacy of Kain games have included the Pillars in gameplay. It wouldn't necessarily feel like a Legacy of Kain installment without the Pillars. Additionally, the layout of the Sanctuary of the Clans provided for wide open spaces, not unlike an arena, that the Nosgoth team could, I believe, easily translate into a more graphically-elaborate rendition.

Cynthric

17th Mar 2014, 10:00

I'm not 100% sure what it is you're asking here, would you mind clarifying your question? Sorry if I'm being a bit dense...

I think he's implying something along the lines of for the game to fit the lore more when a vampire's health reaches 0 instead of dying they should be incapacitated until a human performs a execution via impalement or burning and if they aren't executed in time they should get back up with a small amount of health for a chance to escape or attack again similar to how the vampires did in Soul Reaver. Although I guess technically they're already being impaled and burned constantly by the human's arrows and grenades so kind of makes the idea irrelevant.