Good to see them make the jump, they will be a good fit for the Midwestern teams. And they'll be sure to have a very competative team on the floor!

LightningMan

05-20-2008, 10:26 PM

My only concern is that this is another minor team in a major market. But welcome aboard.

Ken, Steelheads fan

05-20-2008, 11:20 PM

My only concern is that this is another minor team in a major market. But welcome aboard.

...and that's your only concern?!? History has proven time and time again (just last season, as a matter of fact) that allowing so many teams into a league in so short a time is a recipe for failure.

"Detroit is a well run organization and we are pleased to welcome them to the Premier Basketball League." said PBL President and Chief Executive Officer Tom Doyle. "The addition of the Detroit Panthers maintains our mission of a controlled expansion process that is synchronized with our travel cost objectives."

See, this is the kind of stuff I've been talking about. Whatever happened to the three-year rule? Detroit has ALREADY been deemed a well run organization?!? There isn't enough of a track record available to reach such a conclusion. I'm wrong?!? I have an agenda?!? My only defense is three words: Strong--Island--Sound

LightningMan

05-21-2008, 08:01 AM

Detroit has ALREADY been deemed a well run organization?!? There isn't enough of a track record available to reach such a conclusion. I'm wrong?!? I have an agenda?!?
You're wrong. You have an agenda. Here is some quick, Wikipedia research on Detroit:
One ABA Championship, two division titles, been in existence since the start of Joe's ABA and played every year except the last.

They have a track record.

DazedAndAmused

05-21-2008, 08:45 AM

You're wrong. You have an agenda. Here is some quick, Wikipedia research on Detroit:
One ABA Championship, two division titles, been in existence since the start of Joe's ABA and played every year except the last.

They have a track record.

k1, have you sent in your league application yet or are you still waiting for tom doyle to call you?

You're wrong. You have an agenda. Here is some quick, Wikipedia research on Detroit:
One ABA Championship, two division titles, been in existence since the start of Joe's ABA and played every year except the last.

They have a track record.

The Detroit franchise(s) since the start of Joe's ABA?!? :shock:

On that note I will rest my case. Please check their actual track record. It is none too stellar.

preeths

05-21-2008, 11:10 AM

Detroit had the only solid ownership group in the ABA's Midwest last year. That's according to those inside the ABA. One team owner told me the Panthers were the only other team in the entire division he counted on to make its road trips and host home games. The ABA tried to appease Detroit by placing teams all around them last season, but when some proved to be vapor, Detroit pulled out and the division crumbled. In addition, the Panthers have been able to get some media attention here and there in spite of the league.

rider

05-21-2008, 12:09 PM

These are all wonderful announcements but very shallow without confirmed venue leases! the league should no better than to annouce anything without a lease. The PBL has a bright future.

Ken, Steelheads fan

05-21-2008, 07:07 PM

Detroit had the only solid ownership group in the ABA's Midwest last year. That's according to those inside the ABA. One team owner told me the Panthers were the only other team in the entire division he counted on to make its road trips and host home games. The ABA tried to appease Detroit by placing teams all around them last season, but when some proved to be vapor, Detroit pulled out and the division crumbled. In addition, the Panthers have been able to get some media attention here and there in spite of the league.

Yeah, but whatever happened to the three-year rule? Has this team performed as a well-run organization for three consecutive seasons (even by ABA standards)? I see a new pattern forming. It seems that unwritten rule was thrown out the window when Gary Hunter left the CBA for the D-League along with those four teams. The new pattern is that teams are considered well-run organizations without actually demonstrating they can survive the long haul. The D-League accepted Sioux Falls, Dakota, and Idaho because those teams proved they could survive long-term. That's one reason why I say there is the D-League and then there is everyone else. Everyone, including the PBL, is not particular enough about who is allowed into their leagues. Will the Detroit organization survive more than a season or two in the PBL? Maybe, but the Panthers haven't been around long enough to gauge those chances for success.

Whenever I hear about well-run organizations that actually don't have much of a track record, I'm reminded of the Strong Island Sound. Supposedly a very well run organization. Received some media attention. Folded during their third season. History is always at play. Keep doing things the same way and you will keep having the same results.

LightningMan

05-21-2008, 07:40 PM

Maybe, but the Panthers haven't been around long enough to gauge those chances for success.
Since they've been around longer than any other team in the league, never mind the league itself, you have either impossible standards or an ax to grind.

I'm not even going to pay attention to you anymore, Ken, since you're irrational about the PBL. Detroit has a freaking track record. Argue that they're not a quality organization if you must, but saying an eight year old team doesn't have a track record is idiocy.

misenern

05-21-2008, 07:41 PM

Yeah, but whatever happened to the three-year rule? Has this team performed as a well-run organization for three consecutive seasons (even by ABA standards)? I see a new pattern forming. It seems that unwritten rule was thrown out the window when Gary Hunter left the CBA for the D-League along with those four teams. The new pattern is that teams are considered well-run organizations without actually demonstrating they can survive the long haul. The D-League accepted Sioux Falls, Dakota, and Idaho because those teams proved they could survive long-term. That's one reason why I say there is the D-League and then there is everyone else. Everyone, including the PBL, is not particular enough about who is allowed into their leagues. Will the Detroit organization survive more than a season or two in the PBL? Maybe, but the Panthers haven't been around long enough to gauge those chances for success.

Whenever I hear about well-run organizations that actually don't have much of a track record, I'm reminded of the Strong Island Sound. Supposedly a very well run organization. Received some media attention. Folded during their third season. History is always at play. Keep doing things the same way and you will keep having the same results.

You do make a good point. However, I don't think that the "the three-year rule" is necessary. Would it be ideal? Of course. But, realistically the league doesn't have that luxury, nor does any other league really.

If a league wants to expand they will have to take risks on unproven commodities, i.e. expansion teams, teams with only one year. However, they can minimize that risk by examining the market and the strategy behind the operation. What we would call due diligence.

Now the question is has the PBL done that? Is Detroit a smart market/organization to add, do they have a plan to succeed? Or are they just expanding carelessly into a market that will never work (which could definitely be the case). I do agree with you on most of your points, with the exception of the ďthe three-year ruleĒ, unless I misunderstood.

As we saw with Strong Island, doing things right doesn't mean success. And the PBL should aims for teams that can succeed, so they can too.

psbf

05-21-2008, 07:50 PM

I just learned about Strong Island, but after visiting their website, I think Ken is making too much of it. It appears he is just picking a team to make an example of. I think S.I. is in better shape than he wants us to believe. Yes, they need a new financial partner, but they will return. Ken wants us to believe that they folded.

DazedAndAmused

05-21-2008, 08:03 PM

You do make a good point. However, I don't think that the "the three-year rule" is necessary. Would it be ideal? Of course. But, realistically the league doesn't have that luxury, nor does any other league really.

If a league wants to expand they will have to take risks on unproven commodities, i.e. expansion teams, teams with only one year. However, they can minimize that risk by examining the market and the strategy behind the operation. What we would call due diligence.

Now the question is has the PBL done that? Is Detroit a smart market/organization to add, do they have a plan to succeed? Or are they just expanding carelessly into a market that will never work (which could definitely be the case). I do agree with you on most of your points, with the exception of the ďthe three-year ruleĒ, unless I misunderstood.

As we saw with Strong Island, doing things right doesn't mean success. And the PBL should aims for teams that can succeed, so they can too.

The raised eyebrows are warranted given the history of minor league basketball, but there are two things that are different about the PBL (in addition to what is hopefully an improving vetting process):

1. The league pays for all travel.
2. The league has insurance to keep the teams going in the event an owner bails. (Hopefully, this event becomes less likely with good screening up front.)

But since K1 (aka Ken) brought it up:

his league does a good job with ensuring travel is not an issue since it is covered with league dues, but it has no insurance policy beyond that....of course when you play in high school gyms and pay players minimally, your operating costs are very low.....however even with that, the league can't seem to play a consistent schedule. I do agree with their claim that all teams that start the season finish the season (which unfortunately we view as admirable these days), but there is some wobbly performance in between. The CBA and PBL on the other hand played their consistent schedules like professional leagues should.

BTW, the "own your own team" web site (seen in another recent thread) that seems to solicit contributor to contribute to an IBL team is quite comical...especially the reference to the IBL having superior talent to all of the other minor leagues...calling out the PBL and CBA specifically. Sounds like something Newman might do.

Ken, Steelheads fan

05-21-2008, 08:07 PM

Since they've been around longer than any other team in the league, never mind the league itself, you have either impossible standards or an ax to grind.

I'm not even going to pay attention to you anymore, Ken, since you're irrational about the PBL. Detroit has a freaking track record. Argue that they're not a quality organization if you must, but saying an eight year old team doesn't have a track record is idiocy.

I was hoping you would have corrected yourself after an earlier post, but the Detroit Panthers have not been in existence for eight years. Their tenure is more like one year and two games. That's not a proven track record, IMO.

Ken, Steelheads fan

05-21-2008, 08:11 PM

I just learned about Strong Island, but after visiting their website, I think Ken is making too much of it. It appears he is just picking a team to make an example of. I think S.I. is in better shape than he wants us to believe. Yes, they need a new financial partner, but they will return. Ken wants us to believe that they folded.

Yes, I was using the Strong Island Sound as an example. Don't forget though. The Rockford Lightning are also looking for financial partners. :wink:

DazedAndAmused

05-21-2008, 08:14 PM

I just learned about Strong Island, but after visiting their website, I think Ken is making too much of it. It appears he is just picking a team to make an example of. I think S.I. is in better shape than he wants us to believe. Yes, they need a new financial partner, but they will return. Ken wants us to believe that they folded.

Well, K1 is right on that one. They definitely folded. But, I'm not sure they support much of an example for any point. SI was actually a fairly low budget team, but they weren't prepared to continue dropping money into a team in a floundering league that couldn't guarantee opponents. Interesting that the league CFO figured that out early last year.

Back on K1, his teams definitely lose less money than those in the other leagues. (Frankly, if i were putting money into a team, I'd probably call him up.) But, most of us just aren't buying the more recent bravado coming from him. The IBL is a budget, summer league. Nothing wrong with that. It serves a niche. But, the talent is significantly less (yes, player pay matters), there are fewer fans, and in general, their impact in the basketball world is less.

bectond

05-21-2008, 08:29 PM

Can anyone answer one of the below questions.

Does anyone know where the Panther play their home games?

Did they have any home games last year and if so does anybody know how many fans turned out to see the games?

Who is the coach?

What color uniforms do they wear?

Do they have a mascot?

Has anyone seen them play anywhere?

Why did they remain in the ABA last year instead of making the jump to the PBL?

Did the PBL recruit them at all last year?

Did they make an inquiry this year or did the PBL seek them out, if so what did the PBL use as a gage to determine that this franchise is for real?

DazedAndAmused

05-21-2008, 08:35 PM

Can anyone answer one of the below questions.

Does anyone know where the Panther play their home games?

Did they have any home games last year and if so does anybody know how many fans turned out to see the games?

Who is the coach?

What color uniforms do they wear?

Do they have a mascot?

Has anyone seen them play anywhere?

Why did they remain in the ABA last year instead of making the jump to the PBL?

Did the PBL recruit them at all last year?

Did they make an inquiry this year or did the PBL seek them out, if so what did the PBL use as a gage to determine that this franchise is for real?

I'd like to know about their venue in particular and am curious to know the answers to the last 3 questions. Didn't they only play 2 games last year (reportedly quitting after seeing their division go way )? I basically consider them a start up at this point since they took last year off, and therefore am less concerned (since it is off season spring now) about colors, coaches, and mascots, but knowing a few more basics here would yield some confidence.

tbayz1

05-21-2008, 08:46 PM

They have a mascot ( a panther ) and jerseys that are the same color as their logo. I forgot who their coach was though. The logo and mascot are found on their website: www.detroitpanthers.com And I think that might be their gym too on the page.

They played in at a high school or small college in the ABA, Im not sure which one, but it was a good size and plenty big enough, and crowds varied.

I saw them play a few times in Buffalo, they had a very talented team, in fact, they beat the Razorsharks a few times in Detroit. They had some solid players. The games against Buffalo/Detroit were battles, real physical, high emotion, and just plain exciting!

Bart Scott, starting linebacker for the Baltimore Ravens was a part owner when they were in the ABA, I wonder if hes still around.

And I guess they called it quits in the ABA after everyone folded around them; Why waste money on traveling all over the place to play or worry about teams not showing up, etc... It was a smart move for them just to sit out and be done with the ABA. They were a pretty good franchise, and I'm glad they're in the PBL now.

And as for the last 3, I couldn't give you an answer.

misenern

05-21-2008, 08:46 PM

I was hoping you would have corrected yourself after an earlier post, but the Detroit Panthers have not been in existence for eight years. Their tenure is more like one year and two games. That's not a proven track record, IMO.

I side with you on that. I doubt that the same Detroit team has been playing since 2000. However, if the PBL examined the Panther's strategy, finances, and potential and deemed it to be a good team to add, who is to fault them? Thatís the logical approach the NBADL takes, although obviously much more in-depth. In fact, the NBADL and other leagues allow teams in with NO track record, itís expansion. There is nothing wrong with that as long as the have done due diligence and really examined the organisation.

The question is, have they?

LightningMan

05-21-2008, 09:21 PM

I was hoping you would have corrected yourself after an earlier post, but the Detroit Panthers have not been in existence for eight years. Their tenure is more like one year and two games. That's not a proven track record, IMO.
Dude, unless Wikipedia is wrong, the Detroit Dogs changed names to the Detroit Wheels, then the Detroit Panthers. I was hoping you'd actually look it up yourself, but, here, let me help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Panthers_%28PBL%29

Now I've shown you why I say they're the oldest franchise in the league. You show me why I am wrong.

LightningMan

05-21-2008, 09:23 PM

I side with you on that. I doubt that the same Detroit team has been playing since 2000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Panthers_%28PBL%29

As I said to Ken, prove me wrong. If I am, I'll admit it. But that's where I got my information.

LightningMan

05-21-2008, 09:25 PM

US Basket also thinks I'm right:

http://www.usbasket.com/team.asp?Cntry=USA&Team=3856

DazedAndAmused

05-21-2008, 09:32 PM

US Basket also thinks I'm right:

http://www.usbasket.com/team.asp?Cntry=USA&Team=3856

LM, if you're going to use things like research, facts, truth, and logic, then please go somewhere else. You're not welcomed here.

Ken, Steelheads fan

05-21-2008, 10:05 PM

Dude, unless Wikipedia is wrong, the Detroit Dogs changed names to the Detroit Wheels, then the Detroit Panthers. I was hoping you'd actually look it up yourself, but, here, let me help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Panthers_%28PBL%29

Now I've shown you why I say they're the oldest franchise in the league. You show me why I am wrong.

No, those aren't the same franchises. Those are Joe Newman's versions of the same franchise. Each of those teams folded, then Mr. Newman announced a new ownership group was taking over. A common practice in the ABA. What is the connection between the Panthers' ownership group and the Dogs? The ABA market reservation?!? There is no connection. As a matter of fact, an all-muslim team is taking over for the Panthers. Will that make it nine years of existence for this organization?!? I think not.

I wouldn't put a lot of faith in Wikipedia articles. Anyone can login and submit an article or alter an article on Wikipedia then make the article state whatever you want it to state.

Ken, Steelheads fan

05-21-2008, 10:44 PM

Dude, unless Wikipedia is wrong, the Detroit Dogs changed names to the Detroit Wheels, then the Detroit Panthers. I was hoping you'd actually look it up yourself, but, here, let me help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Panthers_%28PBL%29

Now I've shown you why I say they're the oldest franchise in the league. You show me why I am wrong.

Hmmmmm. Maybe others can convince you that there are no eight year old franchises in the ABA. This is a link to a thread fomerknownasfells started on dead ABA teams:
http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=10143

Wikipedia is wrong.

psbf

05-21-2008, 11:24 PM

DandA, I agree with you about the ABA. I disagree with you about S.I., though. There is a difference between a team folding and and a team going into hiatus, the latter of which sounds more like what I read on the Strong website.
As far as Detroit, I remember watching the Wheels visiting the Xplosion, when we were in the ABA. I don't remember hearing anything about the Wheels being any other name previously.

skippy

05-21-2008, 11:51 PM

It's definitely not the same team or owners.

One of the incarnations in Detroit got some really negative press
about not paying it's players, bills, venue, etc.

We need the ABARed,White,AndBlue wayback machine for this one Mr. Peabody.

skippy

05-22-2008, 12:13 AM

Here's an investigative report on the Detroit news
about the Detroit Wheels.

After watching that, I don't think anyone will want to argue the point that the Detroit
Panthers have any link to that.

I found the link in this thread:

http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3379

In which we are introduced to our protagonist, formerlyknownasfells, and his introduction
to the wacky world of Newman.

I love the memory of Al Gore's interweb.

LightningMan

05-22-2008, 07:35 AM

The history of the ABA's Buffalo Sharks [Silverbacks, Rapids] is as full of name and ownership changes as the purported history of Detroit, shown not just on Wikipedia but on US Basket. Even the poster you cite says one ownership group replaced another, not team replacing team:
Then we have our entry into the ABA, the Detroit Wheels. As far as poor ownership goes, it doesn't get much poorer than the Wheels'. Mind you that Uncle Joe made the following quote when the most recent ownership replaced the previous one, who quickly faded away:
Again, I concede that with the ABA it is much more likely that they were continually replaced by expansion teams. Problem is, my sources say otherwise and so far your sources don't refute that.

How about someone dig up an announcement regarding one of the post Dogs names that clearly shows it is a new team?

LightningMan

05-22-2008, 07:43 AM

Hmmmmm. Maybe others can convince you that there are no eight year old franchises in the ABA. This is a link to a thread fomerknownasfells started on dead ABA teams:
http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=10143

Wikipedia is wrong.
Funny, according to the very thread you're showing me, Wikipedia is at least two thirds right:
...The Motown Jammers became the Detroit Wheels who became the Panthers...
Which, assuming the Jammers go back to the ABA's hiatus, still make it the oldest franchise in the league. I imagine with some work I could find the link from the Jammers to the Dogs, but its looking like just saying Wikipedia is wrong isn't going to be enough.

DazedAndAmused

05-22-2008, 08:09 AM

DandA, I agree with you about the ABA. I disagree with you about S.I., though. There is a difference between a team folding and and a team going into hiatus, the latter of which sounds more like what I read on the Strong website.
As far as Detroit, I remember watching the Wheels visiting the Xplosion, when we were in the ABA. I don't remember hearing anything about the Wheels being any other name previously.

well, essentially SI has been on hiatus for 1.5 yrs....i don't count their start last yr that was unfunded....if the aba cfo doesn't have the confidence to fund his own team, how can other investors be expected to? i'll meet you halfway though....we can call it a "mostly permanent hiatus." Type this now and see where you go: http://strongislandsound.com/

skippy

05-22-2008, 08:57 AM

The Detroit Dogs are the same team as the Detroit Panthers,
just like teams don't fold in the ABA, they have their market
reservations terminated.

Given our collective history in watching this league, would it
be a stretch of the imagination to state that your sources ""may"
be wrong? : ) It wouldn't be the first time someone in the ABA
stretched the truth, or that media outlets didn't fact check.

Also, according to the wikipedia article, which I could go change myself, right now,
several of these teams finished with records of 4-8? I would hardly count that as
model franchise behavior.

Again, I call upon ABARed,WhiteandBlue, keeper of the unholy documents, to set this
very important debate to rest. : )

LightningMan

05-22-2008, 09:15 AM

Also, according to the Wikipedia article, which I could go change myself, right now...
I concede that. That's why US Basket agreeing with the chronology is important.

...several of these teams finished with records of 4-8? I would hardly count that as model franchise behavior.
Nor would I. I am not making (and would not make) the argument that longevity equals quality. I am not making the argument that Detroit is a quality franchise. I am making the argument that Detroit has a track record and Ken is being silly for saying they don't.

To review, my claims are that Detroit is the oldest team in the league (which I based on the Wikipedia and US Basket information, which was corroborated in part by the OSC post I quoted), that Detroit has a track record (which follows from that), Ken is being silly for saying they don't (which follows from those), and that the Panthers are continuous from the Dogs (which I also based on the Wikipedia information but was not corroborated by the poster quoted).

And if anyone would like to be done with this discussion, just agree with me. :D

psbf

05-22-2008, 09:43 AM

I can't go one way or the other, other than to say that I'd never heard of the team, prior to this thread.

skippy

05-22-2008, 03:32 PM

Let's email the Panther's owner and see if he would be willing to pay the debts
left behind by the other teams.

DazedAndAmused

05-22-2008, 03:38 PM

Let's email the Panther's owner and see if he would be willing to pay the debts
left behind by the other teams.

Maybe it's most fair to say that the Panthers have roots that go back to 2000, albeit the owners, team name, and probably alot of other things have changed. That's common in all sports.

The two absolutes of:

1. This is the same team
2. This is not the same team

...are probably neither fully accurate. I call it a draw, though LM wins by technicality because he did more fact checking.

LightningMan

05-22-2008, 03:40 PM

Let's email the Panther's owner and see if he would be willing to pay the debts left behind by the other teams.
When you have something other than snark, like proof you're right, let me know.

skippy

05-22-2008, 04:18 PM

Watch the video I posted, and then ask the Panther's owner if he purchased that debt and settled it....then it's the same team. You won't get him to say that because then people will come out of the woodwork to get paid. I hope that George Gervin eventually gets that money owed to him by the Detroit Dogs straightened out with this guy.

Are the Washington Senators and Washington Nationals the same team?

Being in the same town and playing in the same league does not provide proof of lineage.

The proof you present that you are right is wikipedia? And USBasket?

USbasket can't even be bothered to check if players on it's ex-NCAA tracker actually ever attended the school they have listed as their alma mater. Check out some of your local schools and see the players it's listed as having attended there. Many are wrong.
Many of the "journalists" who write for that site are employed by the league they are writing about.

Show me facts, not suspect websites.

LightningMan

05-22-2008, 04:39 PM

The proof you present that you are right is wikipedia? And USBasket?
Yes, and I admit either is assailable. But until you show me something other than snark that says I'm wrong, it looks like I have more proof than you do.

LightningMan

05-22-2008, 04:41 PM

I call it a draw, though LM wins by technicality because he did more fact checking.
Thank you.

skippy

05-22-2008, 05:20 PM

Okay, using your "suspect" lame investigative reporting, I came up with this
from YOUR source.

The Detroit Dogs was an American Basketball Association (ABA) team based in Detroit, Michigan. The team began play in the fall of 2000 and played in the Cobo Arena but is now defunct. George Gervin was the head coach. University of Michigan alums Travis Conlan and Sean "the hig-man" Higgins were featured players, as well as Detroit Pershing alums Carlos Williams and Willie Mitchell. In August of 2002, Carlos Williams was shot dead in his home in Detroit. He was 27.

The Dogs won the 2000-01 ABA championship.

The team is NOW DEFUNCT. PERIOD. According to the holy grail of investigate journalism wikipedia.

skippy

05-22-2008, 05:31 PM

A newspaper article talking about the Wheels not paying players.

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/080806/loc_2006080802.shtml

Detroit Wheels: Play but no pay

People who have had dealings with Dreyer and his attorneys in the past say that nonpayment often appears to be par for the course.

Take Ferndale resident Travis Brown, who had dreamed all his life of the day he might play for a professional basketball team.

Brown, a member of the Detroit Wheels, an American Basketball Association professional team, played part-time from last October through March on the team, co-owned by Dreyer.

"I signed a contract and was supposed to get $600 a month," said Brown, a 27-year-old shooting guard for the Wheels.

In February, he received one check for $200, signed by Dreyer, and nothing more.

"It wasn't right," said Brown, who also sometimes works as a substitute teacher.

He didn't teach during the season because he assumed he would be paid for playing.

"I made that decision knowing this was what I wanted to do," he said, noting he lost his car because he didn't have money for payments. "I thought I would be getting something. I'm angry and frustrated."

A Jan. 4, 2005, press release still listed on the American Basketball Association Web site announces the new ownership and management of the team.

"The team will be co-owned by Antoine Joubert, a Detroit businessman and 1987 All-American basketball player at the University of Michigan, and Chris Dryer, a Detroitbased real estate developer and attorney," according to the release. "Chris and I are working hard to do just that and appreciate the ABA's willingness to work with us. We have a lot of catching up to do, a lot of games to play, but I think people will be very pleasantly surprised. We're practicing and we should be ready to go this weekend."

Joubert would have been busy that fall, coaching the Wheels and going to board meetings at NorthPointe Academy, where he was one of the board members. The Wheels practiced at the University of Michigan at Dearborn, Brown said, which is where Charles Turner - another NorthPointe board member - worked.

Detroit Wheels player Justin Hall also has never received his full pay of $1,000 a month. Hall has a longer association with Dreyer, but he has never had much contact with him.

"I've seen him once and I have played three years with him," said Hall, 26, of Bloomfield Township.

In prior years, the shooting guard's pay was late.

"But we were paid more regularly and we did get something," Hall said, explaining one year he received 60 percent of his full pay.

When and if the Detroit Wheels come back together, Hall won't be in the lineup. He is even weighing whether to take Dreyer to court to get his money.

Hall said, "We understand he went through some financial difficulty, but your word is your word."

Apparently, the Detroit Wheels were a team that were added to the league after the season had already started, in January...I guess that puts a damper on your claim that the team has been in operation for 8 consecutive years.

psbf

05-22-2008, 05:34 PM

Detroit Dogs???? I can see why they changed their name.

skippy

05-22-2008, 05:35 PM

Here's an ABA press release that calls the Motown Jammers an Expansion team:

Indianapolis, IN. Joe Newman, ABA Co-Founder, today announced the 9th team in the ABA pro basketball league's rapid expansion - Detroit's MOTOWN JAMMERS. According to Newman, "A fabulous group of people, headed by George "Iceman" Gervin, who will serve as Team President, has been put together. Gervin, an NBA Hall of Famer and one of the NBA's Top 50 players, began his career in the original ABA and led the Detroit Dogs to the ABA Championship as Head Coach three years ago. "His return to the ABA," stated Newman, "is very exciting. We are absolutely thrilled. This organization will add much to the league."

The team is owned by Motown Jammers, LLC, a corporation headed by Detroit entepreneur, Kenneth W. Bardwell. Others include:

Gervin added, "The ABA is making great strides because it has captured the attention of fans with its exciting, fast-paced play at affordable prices. It definitely reminds me of when I started in the league. These guys can run, shoot, pass and play awesome defense. The unique ABA rules make every minute action-paced. And you can be sure that the Motown Jammers will have a strong and competitive team."

Other expansion teams announced thus far are Portland, Pittsburgh, Little Rock, Nashville, Gwinnett GA, Kentucky, Vancouver BC and Reno. The Motown Jammers bring to 16 the number of teams committed for next season.

Jim Clark, ABA CEO, continued, "One of the goals for next season is divisional play to lower travel costs and to create more interesting rivalries. The addition of the Motown Jammers certainly brings this goal one step closer. And we will be announcing several additional expansion teams shortly.

I can count, on one hand, the number of "minor league" teams that successfully returned from hiatus.

Montreal Impact, USL-1.
Mississippi, ECHL ??
(Texas Wildcatters came back for a year, now going and gone. Not successful in my book.)

Surely, you can chime in on this. I can't be as right as I say I am.

My point is that I don't care what someone within an organization WISHES will happen when the status you're in is demonstrably fatal in over 90% of all occurrences.

LightningMan

05-22-2008, 09:16 PM

Here's an ABA press release that calls the Motown Jammers an Expansion team
Give me a link and I'll concede you're right.

misenern

05-22-2008, 10:11 PM

I win.

Thanks for playing.

Of course you do. Is anyone (besides LightningMan) actually surprised that the mighty Detroit Panthers donít have eight years of history behind them?

Not only are we talking about minor league basketball here, we are talking about the ABA. Itís basically ridiculous to suggest that the Detroit Dogs waged through eight years of the ABA to join the PBL. To suggest that a team in the ABA who has gone through four name changes, countless personnel changes and who knows what else, is still the same franchise is just plain unlikely at best. We are talking about the ABA here, it would cost less to get a new team than to buy the debt inhibited mess of the Jammers/Dogs/whatever. It just doesn't make sense.

What is perhaps even more bizarre is that no one knew they were the same team, except for a guy on Wikipedia, and LightningMan. You donít think anyone on these boards would know about a team thatís been in the ABA eight years? Hell, Joe Newman would have been shouting it from his and Robby Kendalís rooftop. But, he didnít. Itís just so outlandish I am surprised we are arguing about it.

LightningMan

05-22-2008, 10:47 PM

Is anyone (besides LightningMan) actually surprised that the mighty Detroit Panthers donít have eight years of history behind them?
First of all, I was surprised that it was alleged they did have eight years of history, not that they didn't. You want to fault me for believing US Basket and Wikipedia after I read it, fine. It's a fair cop. Second of all, in the interview with Tom Doyle quoted in a different thread, it is asserted by the author, so it's not like I am the only one who is under this impression.

Quebec hosted the 2008 ABA playoffs and Detroit won the first championship in the modern ABA in 2001 under coach George Gervin.

And finally, there were a grand total of three of you saying I was wrong. Most people ignored the whole thing or said they didn't know. Dude, even I acknowledged that I could be wrong. What most of you failed to do was prove it, something I asked for.

skippy

05-22-2008, 11:55 PM

Give me a link and I'll concede you're right.

This is where I found it:

http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15399

Paul S

05-23-2008, 06:46 AM

You know I actually have to back Lightning Man on this. Sure its true that the Detroit Panthers are one of many (ultimately failed) ABA franchises' in Detroit. But if both us basket and wikipedia are asserting one thing then its an easy mistake to make.

The fact that people care if the Detroit Dogs or the Detroit Panthers were in ABA2000 is actually more a typical ABA scenario. I guess going forward what we should do is assume that no ABA franchise has any real history or any real staying power.

I now think the longest serving ABA franchise might be Ft. Wayne's Best who is the Midwest emergency team Joe or ______ (insert owner here) calls when another team can't play a game. They aren't actually in the league per se, but have played within it for 5 years now.

preeths

05-23-2008, 12:09 PM

Maybe it's most fair to say that the Panthers have roots that go back to 2000, albeit the owners, team name, and probably alot of other things have changed. That's common in all sports.

The two absolutes of:

1. This is the same team
2. This is not the same team

...are probably neither fully accurate. I call it a draw, though LM wins by technicality because he did more fact checking.

Good post. One possibility is it's essentially the same market reservation, since no subsequent one was paid for, but other than that the organizations are completely separate. The ABA may have just handed off the market to the next group that could come in and put a team on the court. Just speculation, but in that case it'd be tough to say it's fully a new team or fully a returning team.

preeths

05-23-2008, 12:13 PM

Let's try another tack.

I can count, on one hand, the number of "minor league" teams that successfully returned from hiatus.

Montreal Impact, USL-1.
Mississippi, ECHL ??
(Texas Wildcatters came back for a year, now going and gone. Not successful in my book.)

Surely, you can chime in on this. I can't be as right as I say I am.

My point is that I don't care what someone within an organization WISHES will happen when the status you're in is demonstrably fatal in over 90% of all occurrences.

It does happen occasionally. The CHL's Texas Brahmas and New Mexico Scorpions came back from one-year layoffs recently. I know there have been a few others as well.

patmc16

05-27-2008, 01:23 PM

The history of the ABA's Buffalo Sharks [Silverbacks, Rapids] is as full of name and ownership changes as the purported history of Detroit, shown not just on Wikipedia but on US Basket. Even the poster you cite says one ownership group replaced another, not team replacing team:

Again, I concede that with the ABA it is much more likely that they were continually replaced by expansion teams. Problem is, my sources say otherwise and so far your sources don't refute that.

How about someone dig up an announcement regarding one of the post Dogs names that clearly shows it is a new team?

Wow, that's the first time I have ever been cross thread quoted. Yea for me!

Unfortunately, I shouldn't be used to make your point because I agree with Ken. I may have worded it bad, but these are not the same teams. Other than having some of the same players and being in the same metro area (which explains the same players) there is very little connecting the 4 DIFFERENT teams. The 2 year IBL Macomb County Mustangs also played in the same metro area with some of the same players. No one confused them with the ABA teams. All 4 teams folded. The Panthers are the only one to return. The Dogs played in Detroit. The Jammers and Wheels played in Dearborn. The Panthers have played in River Rouge, Highland Park & Beverly Hills. The Dogs played at a professional arena, Cobo, the one time home of the Pistons. The Jammers and Wheels played at U of M Dearborn Fieldhouse. The Panthers have played at 3 different high school gyms, 1 in each city. There have been different owners of each of the different teams. George Gervin was only a face in the Jammers organization but there is no way he would have even been that if it were the same franchise as the Dogs, given the bad blood between him and the Dogs when they parted ways. The Panthers ownership did not tie themselves to Chris Dryer and the trail of unpaid debt he left behind when the Wheels folded. Would you?

You can't claim the history of a team before you without taking over the obligations of the previous team(s). None of theses teams have done that.

The Panthers are a 1 year plus a couple of games franchise. They are not the Dogs, Jammers or Wheels. Other than the Dogs in year 1, all of those other teams were disasters (including the Dogs in year 2) so I can see why they would not want that history on their back. They have there own black eye in dropping out of the playoffs in '07 instead of traveling like a truely professional team would do.

BTW, saying something is true because I read it in Wikipedia is almost like saying something is true because I read it in the Weekly World News. At one point in the cached version of the Detroit Zafir Wikipedia page, that team was also listed as being the same as the other 4 ABA teams. It is the same text as now apears on the Panthers page so I assume it was done by the same person. Are the Zafir and the PBL Panthers actually the same team since Wikipedia, at one time, said both were the same team as the previous ABA incarnations?