can anyone tell me ,with any reasonable degree of certainty,the potential leagel ramifications of installing this drop in cylinder,thus creating a cartridge gun out of a black powder.:cool:

Newton24b

January 4, 2010, 11:44 PM

1. are you allowed to possess handguns or long guns in the state of michigan?

2. did you purchase it and register it with the state when you purchased it? (purchase laws have been bouncing around from area to area in the state for some reason in the last year or so)

3. if you modify the reciever/recoil shield to allow the loading of metalic cartridges through the breach end of the cylinder, like on a colt saa, then its considered to be modified to a cartridge gun under federal atf guidelines.

4. if you intend to use it during muzzleloading only seasons, you CANNOT use the drop in cartridge cylinder as that would be an offense called "hunting out of season" and would in theory give you a large number of fines and some jail time.

mykeal

January 5, 2010, 09:24 AM

3. if you modify the reciever/recoil shield to allow the loading of metalic cartridges through the breach end of the cylinder, like on a colt saa, then its considered to be modified to a cartridge gun under federal atf guidelines.

I keep seeing this claim on the forums, and have asked several times for a link or reference to the alleged 'guidelines' that say this. So far, nobody has provided one, and I've not been able to find anything along those lines on the BATFE website. Can you document this assertion, please?

In particular, I'm interested in the following situation: a bp revolver with a percussion cylinder installed, but with a loading gate incorporated in the recoil shield to emulate the Colt Peacemaker. This gun was originally marketed by Uberti to European countries where cartridge handguns were outlawed (such as Great Britain); Pietta has also recently added this configuration to the catalog. A picture of the gun:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/mykealsm/Guns/Colt%20SAA/657.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/mykealsm/Guns/Colt%20SAA/R0011678.jpg
Does this gun require an FFL transfer?

pistol1911

January 5, 2010, 11:01 AM

a Ubertie like the one shown.I bought it 10 years ago from Cabelas.They shipped it directly to me as it is classified as a black powder firearm.No ffl required.Your state law will govern the transfer.I'm glad I live in Alabama not ,Ill.,Ca,NJ etc. P.S. You didn't modify the gun it was made that way.

madcratebuilder

January 5, 2010, 12:33 PM

I have
a Ubertie like the one shown.I bought it 10 years ago from Cabelas.They shipped it directly to me as it is classified as a black powder firearm.No ffl required.Your state law will govern the transfer.I'm glad I live in Alabama not ,Ill.,Ca,NJ etc. P.S. You didn't modify the gun it was made that way.

If cabela's shipped you a cartridge gun direct, even a black powder cartridge gun it was an illegal transfer.

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle
loading shotgun, or muzzle loading
pistol, which is designed to use
black powder, or a black powder
substitute, and which cannot use
fixed ammunition. For purposes of
this subparagraph, the term "antique
firearm" shall not include any weapon
which incorporates a firearm frame or
receiver, any firearm which is converted
into a muzzle loading weapon,
or any muzzle loading weapon which
can be readily converted to fire fixed
ammunition by replacing the barrel,
bolt, breechblock, or any combination
thereof.

mykeal

January 5, 2010, 12:37 PM

It's NOT a cartridge gun. It CANNOT BE READILY MODIFIED TO FIRE A CARTRIDGE. It does NOT HAVE A FIREARM FRAME. That's the whole point. It's a percussion gun with a loading gate. Newton24b alleged that simply having a loading gate was sufficient to make the gun a cartridge gun, and thus a firearm under GCA 68. I don't believe that's correct, and so far nobody can provide a reference to the BATF language that makes it that way. The language quoted above (from The Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 CFR Ch 44, Par. 921 (a) (16) (C)) does NOT say 'loading gate'.

pistol1911

January 5, 2010, 01:57 PM

The revolver looks like a cartridge gun but is not.The cylinder is not bored through.It is a percussion cylinder with nipples.The cylinder must be removed to be loaded on a special loading device.

That thing appears to have a firing pin that is wider in diameter than the primer of a .45 Colt cartridge. Just judging from the picture, at least.

Even if you put a Kirst in it, you'd have to either replace the hammer/firing pin, or do some judicious filing of the firing pin to get it to mate up to the primer on a cartridge.

Frankenstein80

January 5, 2010, 04:59 PM

"3. if you modify the reciever/recoil shield to allow the loading of metalic cartridges through the breach end of the cylinder, like on a colt saa, then its considered to be modified to a cartridge gun under federal atf guidelines."

"In particular, I'm interested in the following situation: a bp revolver with a percussion cylinder installed, but with a loading gate incorporated in the recoil shield to emulate the Colt Peacemaker. This gun was originally marketed by Uberti to European countries where cartridge handguns were outlawed (such as Great Britain);"

Its alright for the gun to be shipped like that and be a bp revolver. However, if YOU modify it like thtat to take cartridges it is considered a cartridge firearm that YOU constructed even if youput the bp cylinder back in. Hope that clears things up a little bit.

tpelle

January 5, 2010, 05:36 PM

And that's the answer, right there:

"...it is considered a cartridge firearm that YOU constructed..."

A lot of folks don't know this, but it is perfectly legal for you to manufacture yourself, for your own use, a cartridge-firing firearm.

On the other hand, if you buy a cap-and-ball revolver through the mail (or 'net), then buy a cartridge conversion and install it, the revolver becomes a cartridge-firing revolver that you built yourself. However you can't sell it in that configuration without jumping through a lot of legal hoops, UNLESS you replace the cartridge cylinder with the percussion cylinder. Then I suppose that you can just hand the cartridge cylinder to the new owner, as the cylinder is just a cylinder - has no serial number and consequently is not a firearm.

At least that's how I understand it. Moot point for me, as I like my percussion revolvers just the way the are.

mykeal

January 5, 2010, 11:47 PM

tpelle is correct, but we're off on a tangent here. The question has to do with modifying the recoil shield to incorporate a loading gate. Newton24b made the statement that just the act of incorporating the loading gate made the gun a cartridge gun. If that's true it doesn't matter what cylinder you have with the gun, or even that you have no cylinder at all - it's a cartridge gun. All I'm looking for is the BATF document that makes that allegation a fact.

And I assert that it's NOT 18 CFR 44 Sec 921(a)(16)(C) since there's no mention of a 'loading gate' in that document. But maybe I'm wrong - maybe BATF interprets the language that way. So, where is the BATF interpretation document for that paragraph that makes it clear?

madcratebuilder

January 6, 2010, 12:31 PM

Sadly, BATF writes the language in such a way it's open to interpretation, but the only interpretation that counts is theirs.

back to the OP
can anyone tell me ,with any reasonable degree of certainty,the potential leagel ramifications of installing this drop in cylinder,thus creating a cartridge gun out of a black powder.

If your legal to own a cartdirge revolver then their is no Federal law against it. State law, I don't know.

The laws I would be concerned about are transferring the revolver that involved shipping.

Newton24b

January 6, 2010, 09:44 PM

its considered a cartridge pistol in michigan once youve cut the loading groove, and installed the gated cartridge conversion recoil shield/loading gate unit and conversion cylinder.

however the dnr secretary who answered my email 3 years ago assured me that if i cut a loading groove in recoil shield, it would be legal for muzzlelaoding season hunt if i simply used the factory PERCUSSION CYLINDER and did not take the cartridge cylinder unit into the field on my person or in my blind or vehicle.

mykeal

January 7, 2010, 11:05 AM

its considered a cartridge pistol in michigan once youve cut the loading groove, and installed the gated cartridge conversion recoil shield/loading gate unit and conversion cylinder.
I agree; once the conversion cylinder is installed the gun is considered a cartridge gun by Federal law, regardless of the loading gate and 'loading groove'; this isn't just a Michigan interpretation.

My concern is with the earlier statement that the loading gate ALONE makes it a cartridge gun. I see that often on the forums and so far, nobody has been able to provide any authority to support it.

youp

January 7, 2010, 12:39 PM

I may be mistaken, I do not have a BP revolver therefore have not researched this topic. I do live in MI

It is my understanding that the State of Michigan does not differentiate cartridge or BP in handguns. A handgun is a handgun.

I would talk to an attorney or LEO in MI and get the straight skinny as applied to MI law. Heads up on this one.

Newton24b

January 7, 2010, 09:19 PM

there is a large flux in rules regulating black powder hand guns in michigan at this time.
for most of the 90s and until sometime in 2002, anyone could order a bp handgun from cabelas if they requested a form that had to be notarized and witnessed (much like a will, or power of attorney form) that stated you were who you claimed to be, had no laws preventing you from owning weapons, and that bp handguns were legal to posess in your area.
i may have a few sets of those forms somewhere in my files for posterity. or i may have used them to light my waterheater pilot light.

-there is an amendment that would allow mail ordering of them directly to your private residence.
-there is an amendment that would remove the need for a purchase permit to buy a bp handgun.

-In one part of michigan its rumored that police are supplying people with documentation stating mail order from online gun stores to private residences are already legal. people claim to have sent the forms to cabelas and gotten bp revolvers and single shot pistols through the mailwith no problem.

at this time if you want one, ask your county sherriff. if you dont think they know whats up, contact the local state police outpost and proceed with what they say.

mykeal

January 7, 2010, 11:02 PM

Another option, and in my opinion a vastly superior option as far as getting accurate information is concerned, would be to join Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners (MCRGO); they maintain a very comprehensive site on current Michigan gun laws and provide very timely opinions from lawyers and staff who are expert in Michigan gun laws. Their web site is www.mcrgo.org.

The current law is not in flux. HB4490 was signed into law by Governor Granholm on 10 July 2008 and became effective on 7 January 2009 as 2008 PA 195. It amends several previous Michigan laws, primarily 1927 PA 372, regarding purchasing and licensing handguns. Specific to this thread is Section 2. (7), which states, in part, "This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated." (Emphasis added)

Newton24b

January 8, 2010, 10:58 PM

2008 PA 195, is that the law that removes the need for a purchase permit to acquire a black powder handgun?
i thought the law that removed that requirement for bp hadnguns, actual said muzzleloading handguns, and define them in very simple terms.

mykeal

January 9, 2010, 08:41 AM

I say again: www.mcrgo.org.

Also: "Common Sense Guide to Michigan Gun Laws" by Carol & Bambery, Bambery Law Press, 1124 South Geneva Drive, DeWitt, MI 48820. $24.95. Every book is current as to Michigan law as of the date of the order.

K8vf

January 16, 2010, 09:33 PM

Unless the law has been changed, in Michigan you could own a black powder handgun w/o registration unless it has been loaded.
Once loaded, it is required to be registered.

The cartridge conversion makes it a firearm which requires registration.

Since you probably have fired it anyway as a black powder arm, I would just register it and carry on.

MArk

mykeal

January 16, 2010, 09:45 PM

The law in Michigan has changed.

Read posts 17 and 19 again very carefully.

K8vf

January 16, 2010, 10:12 PM

Well, I have read that section before and just read it again. Basically it says it does not apply " to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated"

So, :

1) if you convert it to a cartridge revolver, are you not using it with "Modern Ammunition" ?

And 2) If you load the weapon in its original state, is it still a relic or curio?

I think that was the OLD reason they required registration if loaded.

I am not trying to be controversial here, but am unclear on the differences that are being indicated to me.

K8vf

January 16, 2010, 11:26 PM

Black Powder and Antiques (as of May of 2004)
Sections 2 (MCL 28.422) and 9 (MCL 28.429) of Public Act 372 of 1927, the concealed weapons law, do not apply to antique firearms. MCL 28.432 now says that purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm is not be subject to the licensure requirements under section 2 (purchase permits) or the requirements that a pistol be subject to a safety inspection conducted by the local police department under section 9.

The law now imports the definition of “antique firearm” from Section 231a of the Michigan Penal Code. Under that act, “antique firearm” is defined to mean (1) a firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898; or (2) a firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

mykeal

January 17, 2010, 07:15 AM

1) if you convert it to a cartridge revolver, are you not using it with "Modern Ammunition" ?
Yes. Once it's converted it is no longer an antique and must be registered.

And 2) If you load the weapon in its original state, is it still a relic or curio?
Yes, assuming you mean 'relic or curio' in the classic sense. Return it to it's original configuration and it no longer needs to be registered. One may have already done so when it was a cartridge firing gun, but once the cartridge capability is removed it doesn't NEED to be.

But I need to pick a nit here. A replica black powder gun is not a 'relic or curio' under the BATF definition. It's an 'antique'. They are not the same thing.

Well I would suppose ifin ya read it Mykeal and ask me that question ... we must be on a differant frequency.
So :rolleyes:

mykeal

January 19, 2010, 06:52 AM

I've read it several dozen times since 1968. I feel I understand both it's meaning and the interpretation that BATFE puts on it. I have no idea what you're getting at, and cannot fathom why you won't say it out loud. Why are you being deliberately obscure?

andrewstorm

February 16, 2010, 01:54 AM

thanx for all the opinions, butt,you know the rest,i know about the janet kukuk act, no need to register the antiques,and all i want to know is can i drop in a replacement part krist konverter,and shoot 45 schofield,which is not availible thru the ordinary chanels of trade, wallmart,mijer,dunahams,ect.and should conform to fed law guidlines.

mykeal

February 16, 2010, 06:49 AM

The regulation says nothing about whether the ammunition is available from a Wal-Mart. .45 Schofield is cartridge available from commercial suppliers. In Michigan, you must register a gun with a cylinder that uses that cartridge, in my opinion.

Hardcase

February 16, 2010, 10:03 AM

Andrewstorm, you need to call the Michigan State Police. There should be something analogous to a Firearms Department, possibly the same people who run the CCW program.

It's the same thing that you'd do if you had a question about federal gun law - you'd contact the ATF to get an opinion.

Then let us know what they tell you.

mykeal

February 16, 2010, 01:21 PM

I wish it was as simple as calling MSP. What you'll get is the opinion of the officer you're talking to, rather than the state attorney general's opinion, or the county prosecutor's opinion, both of which are more important, and none of which may actually be based on the law. There is no case law on this subject.

For the third time - go to www.mcrgo.org. They have the best information of anyone I've talked with, and that includes MSP, the state attorney general's office and my local county prosecutor's office.

hotntot12

February 21, 2010, 01:06 AM

Whatever all of you think if you live here you better register it.

herb

February 21, 2010, 04:59 PM

I think we are playing with fire when we promote or use conversion cylinders. Pretty soon they'll declare all blackpowder revolvers subject to cartridge pistol rules and registration due to the ease of conversion. Yeah, I know they were converting them 140 + years ago but BATF and Brady were not on the scene then but they are now!! Once they see a trend involving converted BP's they'll close the gate. Some front end loading rifles have already crossed this bridge because manufacturer offered both blackpowder AND centerfire barrels for the same frame ie Knight. :(

arcticap

February 21, 2010, 08:29 PM

I'm not sure that I follow you, herb.
Don't use or promote legal conversion cylinders because if we do then they might be declared illegal so that we can't use them anyway?
Isn't that a lose, lose situation?
Better buy and use them while they're still legal and damn the torpedos! :)

"Damn the Torpedoes," a reply by Union Adm. David Glasgow Farragut to a warning of the dangerous proximity of submerged torpedoes (now called mines) at the critical juncture of the Battle of Mobile Bay (5 August 1864). As the Union fleet approached the harbor entrance, which was known to be nearly closed by mines, the monitor Tecumseh struck a mine and immediately sank. The following ships closed into a disordered group while heavy cross fire from the Confederate fleet and forts threatened them with early defeat. Farragut, in the flagship Hartford, took the lead, signaling the fleet to follow, and steamed safely through the mine fields into the harbor.

http://www.answers.com/topic/damn-the-torpedoes-album

herb

February 22, 2010, 12:31 PM

I'm saying if guys who are not supposed to have modern pistols (ie felons, dom. abuse, mental nuts) use the loop hole to arm up (ie buy a backpowder and order a cylinder) AND the BATF sees this trend then you could supply of cylinders cut off and every blackpowder that a conversion EXISTS FOR declared a firearm. In some states this would be a disaster as owners would be in registration/permit merry-go round. DO NOT say it couldn't happen. Like I pointed out some Knight and other brands are firearms because high power barrels are available. Never mind if you have the barrel or not. NEVER SAY NEVER when it comes to BATF. In Iowa several years ago a guy tried to kill his ex friend with BP, it misfired sir times, so he beat him to death with butt. GUESS WHAT? Next thing we are hearing from politicians is maybe BP should be reclasified. It died but they thought about it. :D

mykeal

February 22, 2010, 05:20 PM

The guys who aren't supposed to have modern pistols in fact have easy and relatively inexpensive access to almost any modern handgun they want to buy on the streets of every major city in this country. They most certainly will not start 'arming up' with converted black powder revolvers when literally thousands of Glock semiautos are available for the asking. And the Feds know it. They're not stupid.

andrewstorm

March 11, 2010, 11:50 AM

stupid is as stupid does! and i think i really opened a can of worms with my hypothetical question,is it legal,to register,own carry use,a konverted black powder pistol,sometimes i think michiganders all snuck over from canada,the way they are brainwashed into thinking that gun registration,somehow stops crime.any criminal my stepdad ever arrested didnt have his gun registerd!:rolleyes:

mykeal

March 11, 2010, 06:44 PM

i think michiganders all snuck over from canada,the way they are brainwashed
Yep, you're right.
stupid is as stupid does!

andrewstorm

April 26, 2010, 09:01 AM

THATS WHAT THE AD SAYS,BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGES ARE NOT BY DEFINITION MODERN CARTRIDGES,I THINK THATS HOW THE ATF SEES IT,AND THATS WHY THIER RULING ON KONVERTERS AS DROP IN REPLACEMENT PARTS WAS FAVORABLE TO COWBOY ACTION SHOOTERS.:cool:

sundance44s

April 26, 2010, 10:34 AM

well ...I see all the points here ...even the points that are being beat around the bush .
fact is when out country goes door to door collecting out gun collections , like in Merry ol England ...they were still allowed to keep their black powder pistols .
So ...I`ll still have my black powder revolvers if this happens here ...and guess what ...I`ll have cartridge conversions for them that are not regestered and being a reloader I`ll have ammo.......so there it is in a nut shell .
no wonder the price of the conversion cylinders is so high .
talk about a loop hole ...one that would be hard to put a stopper in too .
I`m sure one day they will have to be regestered .....but that day isn`t now .
I wonder if the Obama team reads here ...:eek:

ebr-lvr

April 26, 2010, 12:12 PM

I know that Mi. is strict as I bought a percussion .12 SXS off gunbroker a few months ago and the Detroit dealer insisted on sending it to an FFL (because of Mi. state law, she said.)
And Sundance44, what makes you think the Qbama team can read ? :p

mykeal

April 26, 2010, 12:54 PM

the Detroit dealer insisted on sending it to an FFL (because of Mi. state law, she said.)
What makes you think the Detroit dealer was right? She wasn't, by the way.

sundance44s

April 27, 2010, 07:10 AM

I hear so much doom and gloom with gun rights these days ..
I`m ready to say ..beam me up Scotty I`m done here .:confused:

andrewstorm

August 25, 2010, 02:34 AM

;);););););)

mccarty123

October 6, 2011, 06:42 AM

Antique firearms bills signed into law
2004/05/13
State Rep. Matt Milosch today praised the signing into law by Gov. Jennifer Granholm of three bills enabling individuals to purchase antique handguns without a license or safety inspection. Milosch said before today's signing of House Bills 5427, 5428 and 5429 (Public Acts 99, 100 and 101 of 2004, respectively) many retailers were confused about how to apply state law to antique firearm purchases. Gun collectors and hobbyists were frustrated by the process.

"This will clarify the confusion and unnecessary barriers of purchasing an antique firearm," said Milosch, vice chair of the House Conservation and Outdoor Recreation Committee. "No license or registration is needed when buying or selling one of these firearms. These laws will allow family heirlooms to be passed down through generations without going through the long process of getting a permit and registration."

The public acts clarify state law by eliminating the requirement for pistols manufactured prior to 1898 and replicas of antiques that use black powder or obscure calibers. The legislation brings Michigan into line with the federal government's position. Federal law does not treat antiques and black powder pistols as firearms.

Michigan residents will now join the citizens of 44 other states and be able to purchase antique and black powder pistols from out of state sources and have them delivered directly to their homes. Only Massachusetts, New York, Illinois, Hawaii, New Jersey, and DC still have restrictions on the purchase of antique and black powder pistols.

"We have eliminated the gray areas and made it easier for law enforcement, businesses and state residents," Milosch said. "I'm pleased the governor saw the benefits of these bills."