I don't know about all that. Obviously you guys know a lot more about where the story is going than the rest of us, but given how the Typhon Pact is presented to us in this story, and the actions they take in it, there's no possible way that it's a good thing. They hire people to engage in terrorism by obstructing and destroying mining operations whose sole purpose is to create atmospheric domes, they engineer an elaborate ruse in order to drive out a Federation member and displace refugees, possibly causing thousands of deaths, they instruct soldiers of their new government to refuse federation aid for civilians, despite the fact that they're still starving, and generally happily murder and destroy their way across the galaxy. The Kinshaya view the Klingons as an evil that must be destroyed, the Tzenkethi have apparently never had a peaceful contact with the Feds, and the Tholian ambassador makes it pretty crystal to Bacco that the main reason they joined up was to fuck with the Federation.

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Those are actions of individual members of the Pact, and in some cases, other members were shown to disagree with those actions and intervened to stop them. Don't assume the Pact members are a single unified power just because they've formed this alliance. They still have their own individual agendas that might be at odds with the wishes of their partners. It's possible that over time, the Pact will help to mitigate the actions of the more hostile parties under pressure from their allies. Yes, it's also possible that the Pact could choose to take actions that are bad for the Federation. But it would be unwise to assume that an agenda or attitude expressed by one member nation within the Pact represents the policy of the Pact as a whole. I'm sure that the Pact members will be hashing out these issues among themselves for quite some time to come. In some cases, they may be in agreement about an action that could undermine the Federation. In other cases, the members may disagree and those wanting to undermine or harm the Federation or its allies could be outvoted by the others -- or vice-versa. And in other cases, they may find they have a common interest that the Federation shares. Or they could be unable to agree on a common interest and be so busy wrestling for advantage among themselves that they can't get anything done and leave the Federation unharassed. With six such wildly disparate, proud, willful civilizations trying to make a nascent partnership work, the situation is going to be very volatile and unpredictable.

That's the whole point here -- to create something that isn't just a binary good guys vs. bad guys story. To explore something more challenging and nuanced. Most or all of the individual members of the Pact have clashed with the UFP at times, but what they're attempting is basically to follow the example of the UFP, to try teamwork and cooperation as an alternative to conflict, to embrace diversity in combination rather than cling to xenophobia. It's at once a potential threat to the Federation and a profound affirmation of its core values. Which is really, really interesting.

I don't know about all that. Obviously you guys know a lot more about where the story is going than the rest of us, but given how the Typhon Pact is presented to us in this story, and the actions they take in it, there's no possible way that it's a good thing. They hire people to engage in terrorism by obstructing and destroying mining operations whose sole purpose is to create atmospheric domes, they engineer an elaborate ruse in order to drive out a Federation member and displace refugees, possibly causing thousands of deaths, they instruct soldiers of their new government to refuse federation aid for civilians, despite the fact that they're still starving, and generally happily murder and destroy their way across the galaxy. The Kinshaya view the Klingons as an evil that must be destroyed, the Tzenkethi have apparently never had a peaceful contact with the Feds, and the Tholian ambassador makes it pretty crystal to Bacco that the main reason they joined up was to fuck with the Federation.

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Those are actions of individual members of the Pact, and in some cases, other members were shown to disagree with those actions and intervened to stop them. Don't assume the Pact members are a single unified power just because they've formed this alliance. They still have their own individual agendas that might be at odds with the wishes of their partners. It's possible that over time, the Pact will help to mitigate the actions of the more hostile parties under pressure from their allies. Yes, it's also possible that the Pact could choose to take actions that are bad for the Federation. But it would be unwise to assume that an agenda or attitude expressed by one member nation within the Pact represents the policy of the Pact as a whole. I'm sure that the Pact members will be hashing out these issues among themselves for quite some time to come. In some cases, they may be in agreement about an action that could undermine the Federation. In other cases, the members may disagree and those wanting to undermine or harm the Federation or its allies could be outvoted by the others -- or vice-versa. And in other cases, they may find they have a common interest that the Federation shares. Or they could be unable to agree on a common interest and be so busy wrestling for advantage among themselves that they can't get anything done and leave the Federation unharassed. With six such wildly disparate, proud, willful civilizations trying to make a nascent partnership work, the situation is going to be very volatile and unpredictable.

That's the whole point here -- to create something that isn't just a binary good guys vs. bad guys story. To explore something more challenging and nuanced. Most or all of the individual members of the Pact have clashed with the UFP at times, but what they're attempting is basically to follow the example of the UFP, to try teamwork and cooperation as an alternative to conflict, to embrace diversity in combination rather than cling to xenophobia. It's at once a potential threat to the Federation and a profound affirmation of its core values. Which is really, really interesting.

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Quoted for Truth.

Also, keep in mind that of the states the Federation has invited into, or with which the Federation is already in partnership through, the expanded Khitomer Accords--the Klingon Empire, the Imperial Romulan State, the Cardassian Union, the Ferengi Alliance, and the Talarian Republic--the Federation has been at war or been involved in armed conflicts with all but one of them within the previous twenty years. Really, the only ones who haven't been overtly belligerent towards the Federation (at least in terms of official government policy, if not in terms of the actions of individual DaiMons) is the Ferengi Alliance. Yet that's not stopping the UFP from accepting them as equals who are behaving in good faith.

Those are actions of individual members of the Pact, and in some cases, other members were shown to disagree with those actions and intervened to stop them. Don't assume the Pact members are a single unified power just because they've formed this alliance. (cut) Yes, it's also possible that the Pact could choose to take actions that are bad for the Federation. But it would be unwise to assume that an agenda or attitude expressed by one member nation within the Pact represents the policy of the Pact as a whole. (cut) Or they could be unable to agree on a common interest and be so busy wrestling for advantage among themselves that they can't get anything done and leave the Federation unharassed. (cut)
That's the whole point here -- to create something that isn't just a binary good guys vs. bad guys story. To explore something more challenging and nuanced. Most or all of the individual members of the Pact have clashed with the UFP at times, but what they're attempting is basically to follow the example of the UFP, to try teamwork and cooperation as an alternative to conflict, to embrace diversity in combination rather than cling to xenophobia. It's at once a potential threat to the Federation and a profound affirmation of its core values. Which is really, really interesting.

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OK- thanks for this- I was under the impression the TP had united to attack the Federation and so on. But I like this angle better. I want to read ASD more than I did before, I wasn't sure I'd be interested in it before I read your post.

Also, keep in mind that of the states the Federation has invited into, or with which the Federation is already in partnership through, the expanded Khitomer Accords--the Klingon Empire, the Imperial Romulan State, the Cardassian Union, the Ferengi Alliance, and the Talarian Republic--the Federation has been at war or been involved in armed conflicts with all but one of them within the previous twenty years. Really, the only ones who haven't been overtly belligerent towards the Federation (at least in terms of official government policy, if not in terms of the actions of individual DaiMons) is the Ferengi Alliance. Yet that's not stopping the UFP from accepting them as equals who are behaving in good faith.

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Not to mention all the fighting between Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites before humans started to make alliances with them and bring them together. Or, for a real-life example, the nations of Europe have historically been a fractious lot, warring or at least competing with each other on a continuing basis for centuries, and yet now they're joined into the European Union.

I can see where people are coming from when they said Pran was a bit too perfect but that didn't really bother me while I was in the middle of the story. Someone asked about Pran reading 5 out of the 6 langueages on the coin. Does it really say he can read those languages or just recognise them? I don't remember thinking "wow, he knows a lot of languages during that scene". Anyway, trivial question...

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Being able to understand 5 to 6 languages isn't really that special.
Friedrich Engels was able to converse in about 20, as I recall.

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Sure you're not confusing Friedrich Engels with Heinrich Schliemann, who was renounced for being able to converse in as many languages?

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Yup, pretty sure. Don't know about Schliemann, but Engels did speak about 20 languages. At least, thats what I was taught in school.

Reviewing this thread, it seems that opinions on Sonek Pran were mixed, but I have to say I enjoyed the character a great deal. His negotiating successes seem to be due to a combination of abundant research and an ability to take a high-level view of things, both of which seem to be believable qualities for a history professor to possess. Throw in a dash of "down-home charm", and you're well on your way to influencing people. Plus, his knowledge of other species probably came from his time travelling with his family. The only thing that came across as a bit unbelievable to me was his ability with languages: he was fluent in Lissepian, and I believe it said he was able to read five of the six languages on the Typhon Pact coin. This was the only place where he seemed a little "over the top" to me.

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I just wanted to throw in a side bit here. I once knew a woman who fluently spoke and read 7 major languages and understood 10 others in the 1980s. She ultimately went to work for the Federal Government. Sonek Pran's ability to speak and read several languages was not a stretch for me.

I also knew a dear man who was close to me, now deceased, who could speak and read Greek, Hebrew, Italian, French and German as well as his native English. So, although rare there obvisouly are people that have such talents.

The Kinshaya intrigued me - I shall have to see if I can get hold of a copy of The Final Reflection,which introduces them - hopefully, we’ll get to explore them a bit more in the coming novels.

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The Kinshaya were only alluded to in The Final Reflection, not depicted or explored in any detail. ASD is the first novel that's ever portrayed them "onscreen" or established anything about their culture.

They also appear in a FASA role-playing game book that John M. Ford wrote, The Klingons, but their description there is incompatible with what's described in ASD. I found this description online:

The Kinshaya average 2 metres tall and mass about 200kg. They have no discernable head, and their sensory organs are set in the upper torso, between the massive armoured shoulders. They are bipedal, with two arms, from which hang thick folds of skin resembling wings or a heavy cloak. The legs are covered in overlapping bony plates. The shoulders have similar plates, from which project a number of spikes or horns. They are covered in short green/black fur. The “face” has two large round twin-lensed eyes, a flap-covered breathing orifice and a round mouth ringed with three rows of sharp teeth. A third sight organ is in back, and is capable of not much more than detecting motion and light or dark. The hearing organs are covered by skin. To a Human, they would resemble a huge bat (though no Human has ever seen one), and to Klingons they look much like demons of myth.

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Keith's Kinshaya are quadrupeds with actual wings and large, expressive ears. I imagined something like griffins. They do have the spherical black ships mentioned in the gaming material, though.

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So maybe an unintentional remake like the Klingons. the Species sounds interesting but the whole religious structuring sounds kinda limiting.

I don't know about all that. Obviously you guys know a lot more about where the story is going than the rest of us, but given how the Typhon Pact is presented to us in this story, and the actions they take in it, there's no possible way that it's a good thing. They hire people to engage in terrorism by obstructing and destroying mining operations whose sole purpose is to create atmospheric domes, they engineer an elaborate ruse in order to drive out a Federation member and displace refugees, possibly causing thousands of deaths, they instruct soldiers of their new government to refuse federation aid for civilians, despite the fact that they're still starving, and generally happily murder and destroy their way across the galaxy. The Kinshaya view the Klingons as an evil that must be destroyed, the Tzenkethi have apparently never had a peaceful contact with the Feds, and the Tholian ambassador makes it pretty crystal to Bacco that the main reason they joined up was to fuck with the Federation.

Click to expand...

Those are actions of individual members of the Pact, and in some cases, other members were shown to disagree with those actions and intervened to stop them. Don't assume the Pact members are a single unified power just because they've formed this alliance. They still have their own individual agendas that might be at odds with the wishes of their partners. It's possible that over time, the Pact will help to mitigate the actions of the more hostile parties under pressure from their allies. Yes, it's also possible that the Pact could choose to take actions that are bad for the Federation. But it would be unwise to assume that an agenda or attitude expressed by one member nation within the Pact represents the policy of the Pact as a whole. I'm sure that the Pact members will be hashing out these issues among themselves for quite some time to come. In some cases, they may be in agreement about an action that could undermine the Federation. In other cases, the members may disagree and those wanting to undermine or harm the Federation or its allies could be outvoted by the others -- or vice-versa. And in other cases, they may find they have a common interest that the Federation shares. Or they could be unable to agree on a common interest and be so busy wrestling for advantage among themselves that they can't get anything done and leave the Federation unharassed. With six such wildly disparate, proud, willful civilizations trying to make a nascent partnership work, the situation is going to be very volatile and unpredictable.

That's the whole point here -- to create something that isn't just a binary good guys vs. bad guys story. To explore something more challenging and nuanced. Most or all of the individual members of the Pact have clashed with the UFP at times, but what they're attempting is basically to follow the example of the UFP, to try teamwork and cooperation as an alternative to conflict, to embrace diversity in combination rather than cling to xenophobia. It's at once a potential threat to the Federation and a profound affirmation of its core values. Which is really, really interesting.

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Truth be the idea of the Typhon Pact sounds rather
Intriguing, I'm hoping they stay around for a long time,if for no other reason than to be a thorn in the Federation's side.

I don't know what you mean by that. Since the Kinshaya were never actually depicted in anything but a gaming supplement, and since different works of Trek tie-in fiction (particularly across different media) are under no obligation to acknowledge each other, there's no "remake" involved. As far as the books are concerned, the Kinshaya are a race that's only been mentioned and never seen, giving Keith an entirely free hand to create their appearance and culture. I'm sure there was nothing "unintentional" about his creative decisions in that regard, and I think that he did an excellent bit of species-building there.

I'm guessing that, for our purposes, the Kinshaya territories can be considered both "rimward" and "antispinward" of Klingon spaces, but further "antispinward" of the Gorn?

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Well, in the Star Charts Alpha & Beta Quadrant maps, rimward is toward the page bottom and antispinward is to page right. The Gorn Hegemony is below and left of Klingon space, therefore rimward and spinward. So anything antispinward of Klingon space is going to be antispinward of Gorn space automatically.

ASD has the Kinshaya launching attacks on Krios and H'atoria, which are both shown near the borders of Klingon and UFP territory in Star Charts. If the Kinshaya's territory is near those worlds, then it would pretty much have to be to galactic north or south -- "above" or "below" Klingon/UFP territory, and overlapping with one or both of them as shown on a 2D map. Their territory would probably be roughly in the middle of p. 63 of Star Charts, which would put them coreward of Klingon territory, not rimward, and spinward of the majority of Klingon territory, though antispinward of Qo'noS and the core population of the empire. (Klingon space seems to be structured kind of like Russia, with a densely populated "Eastern Europe" portion and then a huge, sparse "Siberia" portion.)

I'd forgotten to pay attention to details re: Krios and H'atoria. I was more focused, mistakenly so now that I think about it, on the old descriptive John M. Ford gave the Kinshaya way back when: "Federation one way, Romulans another, Kinshaya a third...we're in a g'dayt box!"

I definitely like the Russia analogy, comparing the coreward regions of Klingon space to eastern European Russian holdings and so forth. It works. It'll be interesting to see how much hidden wealth Klingon "Siberia" has...

I'd forgotten to pay attention to details re: Krios and H'atoria. I was more focused, mistakenly so now that I think about it, on the old descriptive John M. Ford gave the Kinshaya way back when: "Federation one way, Romulans another, Kinshaya a third...we're in a g'dayt box!"

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Well, that actually fits my description pretty well, since it suggests being surrounded in three dimensions rather than just two. Except in three dimensions, you'd have to be surrounded on a minimum of four sides to be completely contained (in a tetrahedral enclosure).

I enjoyed the book overall but the ending left me a little flat. Maybe I was expecting too much after reading the Destiny trilogy? I hope we will see more of Sonek Pran though as he is an interesting character.

I just finished the book earlier today, and I really liked it. IMO it did a great job of both showing us the after effects of the Borg Invasion, and setting up this new era of Trek Lit. I especially liked the stuff between the chapters, they really gave us a good look at just how huge of an impact the invasion had on the whole Alpha and Beta Quadrants. I think Sonek Pran was a great character, and I really hope that we get to see him again in the future. I know some people have said that they thought he was little to perfect, and while I can understand that, I thought that he was written and developed well enough to still be intersting. Another thing I liked about the book was getting to see some of KRAD's characters, like Stevens and Klag & Co. It was really cool getting a glimpse into these characters futures, and just hope that this is not the last we will be seeing of them.
This was a really enojoyable KRAD book, definitely up to his usual standards, although TBH it wasn't quite as good as The Art of the Impossible, my absolute favorite KRAD book. 9/10