twizzle wrote:Re. dips before hills and getting leg speed up, I assume motor-pacing is for the same purpose? Draft to a speed then pull out into the wind to get the load?

It's common for track sprinters to use the moto to help get up to speed before doing high speed accelerations. They can get more such efforts in that way, otherwise they waste energy getting up to speed and a pre-fatigued before the sprint starts.

Another is for small groups of sprinters to work together, with one leading the others out, and they swap turns being the "moto".

Helps with motivation and to get more such work done that you might be able to do solo. Need to do that with experienced riders though, not for sprint novices.

So - the kick that other riders use to smash me in the run to the line... Type-IIB? If I force other riders to dig deep into fast twitch to stay with me, ie. push the speed up well into their VO2 territory, they would be using Type-IIA and preserving Type-IIB for that final hit? I have enough trouble staying with the surges, let alone when they really give it everything.

In my experience Gym based strength training can prove very beneficial when combined properly with cycling specific and performance specific strength training.

For sprints:Firstly as we all know Power = Force x Velocitywhich breaks a power output down into its components ie: how much force you can exert on a pedal x how quickly you can do it.Now there are 2 ways to increase power.1: increase the amount of force you can applyThis is best done through a further 2 ways firstly a concerted long term effort in the gym. this won't happen overnight and actual changes to muscular strength(rather than neuromuscular) are likely to take at least 3 months. best achieved through lifting heavy weights 1-8 RM. Secondly this should be followed by sport specific strength training Ie: seated hill climb strength sets 12 from a still start. 12 pedals each leg in the highest gear you can start off in.

2: increase the speed you can apply it (cadence)Again this should start in the gym off the back of at least 3 months strength training.Implement a gym based power program. ie: box jumps, jump lungesAs above this then becomes sport specific. involving high cadence work outs with low power. ie cadences of >120 at least

Once all the above skills have been mastered they can then be combined together to form the basis of either an exceptional standing start or end of race sprint.This is done through the principal of specificity which everyone has already talked about.Basically practise what you want to be good at.

The above doesn't even touch on the benefits for endurance cycling which are at least as great.

The thing I get from this discussion is that it may or may not work for you. There are 2 ways to establish this, I think. One is to engage with a good experienced coach that can look at you and what you have been doing etc, and make an informed decision based on experience. Not all coaches will be able to do this, and the answer may still be wrong. The other way is to just do it and see if it works. The best way to go about this is to have some structure about it so that you're not barking up the wrong tree with what you do.

You can see from TLL that he has given the training some thought and it doesn't seem that it would work for him.

I started weights training again last winter after nearly 10 years off. I had the intention of continuing weights through the summer track season but didn't end up doing so. Even so, I was on the bike 6 days a week between road and track training/racing. I think that the weights helped me with getting some usable strength into my legs, but it took a good month or 2 before it really translated into the pedals. Moreso, I think that the weights took the place of the strength work on the bike that I wasn't able to do due to the winter daylight hours. From my experience, I know that it's certainly not the magic pill so to speak (probably not the best analogy in cycling these days) but I think that it does help my riding.

Interestingly on another note pointed out before re unnecessary muscle mass, yes there is some. I got a birds eye view to that when I stepped under the squat bar this winter. The bulk of the quads had more than enough strength in them, but there were certain parts of the legs and back that needed to be worked up slowly.

If you're not up to getting a trainer, then I think you should give a structured regime a go and see how it works. You don't really have a lot to lose and you can answer a few questions along the way. You may need to be prepared to sacrifice a season or 2 in playing it out though. Up until a month or so ago, I would have said get onto the track (and I think I did say that to you), but that's at least not an immediate option for you.

I've switched to 180's on two of the bikes. Just waiting on some spare cash to buy another set for the TT bike.

The change has taken a few weeks to get used to, I end up burning out the vastus lateralis muscles first, the same muscles I always over-use when doing TT's. But the change has, otherwise, been pretty good... I've noticed that I'm able to hold higher power without breathing as hard, and my average power on rides has jumped by about 15W.

Anyway... weight training in the gym isn't going to do anything for me... I can't do squats, my right knee can't handle the loads. Which was why I was wondering if climbing stairs might be more useful as *that* I can do and it means I have to lift my entire body weight each step... but at the end of the day I'm better of doing on-bike training from what AS has posted.

I've just started doing some gym work, hoping to stay around 2 times a week next week and include a full range of lifts (only done squats and bench, at VERY low levels) because I'm riding 6 days a week and my body can only handle so much. I'm not sure I'm seeing any benefits, but I definitely need the overall strength benefits from better core strength.

Getting beaten down by better riders just means you have to work out how to play to your strengths better, because you can't be good at everything in cycling. An Ironman will never outsprint a crit guy, but he might be able to grind him TT style before that becomes an issue.

Here is what I did, when racing at a high level, admittedly 30+ years ago. After track training< I would do about 1.5hrs at the gym = sit ups and reverse sit ups, 3 x 8 sets of bench presses, lats, triceps, biceps, rowing, dead lifts and my racing weight was 75-80Kgs.

I was not a believer in doing squats.

Foo

I don't suffer fools easily and so long as you have done your best,you should have no regrets.Goal 6000km