Do you have to fight?

This is a discussion on Do you have to fight? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by zip777
I wonder if those slaps are legal here in OH?? Looks like a good alternative to a kubaton. Flat and can ...

I wonder if those slaps are legal here in OH?? Looks like a good alternative to a kubaton. Flat and can slide right into a pocket in cargo pants.

No, saps and black jacks are not legal, it is somewhere in the ORC, I'll look it up.

EDIT: I thought they were listed with the ballistic knifes and zip guns, but I guess my mind is going, here is the ORC weapon's definition: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.11

Which offers the unhelpful: “Deadly weapon” means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon.

In Ohio you have a Concealed Handgun License, which means all you can carry concealed is the handgun (As opposed to Kentucky's CCDW permit), I wouldn't want to be the test case for using a sap on someone.

Often within 10-15 minutes of someone new learning I have been overseas the question "Did you shoot someone?" or "Have you killed anyone?" comes out. I don't know why, but it does.

I think it's human nature buckeye. I was in Bass Pro the other day looking for a decent but inexpensive range carry case and I run into these two young men waiting on their BG check. Of course NO salesperson was to be found so I asked them. After pointing me in the right direction we start to chat. I was kidding them about a "if I saw you two big boys coming at me I'd run" comment when we were talking about older guys thinking they can stand and bang with the young bucks. Come to find out they were Marine brothers just returning from service in Iraq. It just happened...out came the question... "did you have to kill anyone??" I didn't even think about it...it just came out.

We talked for a good half hour and I thanked them for serving our country. Two fine young men for sure.

Thanks for the info on the slap...I always look at that stuff but hesitate because of the legality concerns.

We train for that regularly. As the bar is being set you can rotate your shoulder and reverse the hold. A person who is tense and exerting muscle is always vulnerable because he or she will be unbalanced and their skeleton will be locked up.

For people new to SD, a hard art like Karate or Krav Maga is a good choice. Or just plain ol' western boxing.

For those at that level of training, sure, come in hard, fast, and be resolute. Know your targets and hit them and stay on them until the threat is over. You can acquire this level of skill fairly quickly.

Later, you can add more difficult arts that require much more time and study, but that give you a incredible range of options. AZ Infidel writes a great post above, very entertaining and fun to read. And his response was pretty good. You can get even better and learn to control people in ways that - if it all works out right - don't injure them (much) and keep you safe.

I agree with every single comment above that says, in effect, "have some options besides using the gun." Seriously.

OC spray is God's gift to the defender: Habenero juice in the eyes. There are people who will tell you that they are immune to it. Ha ha.

Or in a case like AZ Infidel's you could take off your belt, leave about 2 feet of it dangling and just lash the perp in the face with it. Lots of options that don't involve broken bones, hospitals, and pesky police problems. You'll find that the more you train and the harder you train, that you'll become more relaxed and much less likely to escalate things.

For people new to SD, a hard art like Karate or Krav Maga is a good choice. Or just plain ol' western boxing.

For those at that level of training, sure, come in hard, fast, and be resolute. Know your targets and hit them and stay on them until the threat is over. You can acquire this level of skill fairly quickly.

I study Taekwondo (Korean Karate) but I did so because my Master Instructor is an amazing person and teacher who incorporates a lot of real life self defense into his teachings...not just the Olympic sparring aspects most people think of.

That being said...if I were to study ONE system for SD purposes it would be Krav Maga. Very street wise and realistic hand to hand defense system. As a matter of fact once I obtain my black belt I will also take up Krav Maga. Regardless of what you learn it is only as good as your INSTRUCTOR. Choose wisely.

No, saps and black jacks are not legal, it is somewhere in the ORC, I'll look it up.

EDIT: I thought they were listed with the ballistic knifes and zip guns, but I guess my mind is going, here is the ORC weapon's definition: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.11

Which offers the unhelpful: “Deadly weapon” means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon.

In Ohio you have a Concealed Handgun License, which means all you can carry concealed is the handgun (As opposed to Kentucky's CCDW permit), I wouldn't want to be the test case for using a sap on someone.

I do know how to counter an arm bar, we do it in training as well. But, as I am sure you know, an arm bar in MMA is one thing, and on the street is another. It can be used as a compliance technique, I have used it as a compliance technique, in order to control someone. Or, if done quickly and with force and with the intent of damage as opposed to compliance, they are hard to counter, in my experience. Where instead of slow, steady pressure, there is a quick exertion of force. There are tons of small joint manipulations that cause virtually no damage and can be used for compliance. But as a civilian, compliance techniques aren't always the best choice, although I suppose you could hold someone in one for minutes until the cops arrive, and hope he doesn't find a way out of it, or his friends don't jump you (not specified in the scenario, but always possible).

I provided options besides the gun, mostly de-escalation, and mental-fu.

OC is great stuff too, I have gotten to learn about that first hand (along with CS gas), I won't disagree with that. But, after I and my co-workers got sprayed with it the first time ever, we then had to fight each other through it. It's not a be all end all. Yes it sucks, but this guy apparently has major problems with you anyways, its one of the variables.

If I take off my belt, what do I do with my gun, and magazines that were in the belt? In all the fighting, they probably will not be secure (I am far more concerned about the firearm than the magazines in this regard).

I actually resent that ego comment, as I have said repeatedly that de-escalation is the first choice. But I am not going to put my life in the belief that the guy who is threatening me physically doesn't know what he is doing, and will defend myself at whatever level is needed to survive the encounter.

I believe that when a person embarks on an illegal course of action such as robbery or rape, they have chosen to remove themselves from protections of civil society. I do not believe it is our responsibility to try to plumb the depths of our attacker's psyche and ascertain their level of commitment to their crime beyond the outwardly obvious indicators. Are they threatening me? Do I have any other recourse that will save me? Do their spoken words and physical actions indicate to me that they plan to do me harm? This is pretty straightforward analysis.

How is it when I'm minding my own business, and some knuckledragger decides he gonna threaten/harass or otherwise upset my happy little world, I've got to somehow , for the sake of NOT ending up on the wrong end of the law, get out a notepad, and pencil, and interview the chump before he issues his beat down/threatening/menacing behavior and ask him just how far he's going to take it???

I would rather die with good men than hide with cowardsIf you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."

When you compare the actual number of people who are killed from being beat up by a single individual who possessed no physical weapons to the number of people who get beat up everyday of the week and survive, I would guess the number of people actually killed is so minuscule, it's probably less than one ten thousands of a percent. Maybe even smaller percentage than that.

Everyone talks about that one guy who got hit in a bar with one punch and dropped dead, yet almost everyone who cites that story are people with no personal or direct knowledge of it what so ever. No doubt it does happen. But compared to the actual number of people who get beat up every day, the numbers are staggering.

I for one, do not intend to walk into face a grand jury in handcuffs without a mark on my body or even a bloody nose and try to explain to them why I shot and killed an unarmed man. Not unless there is some glaringly obvious disparity of force. Sorry, I just don't see that ending well for me.

That doesn't mean that at some point during the fight, I felt that the situation got so out of control where it ended up justifying me shooting the guy, but when I go before a jury for shooting an unarmed guy, I'm definitely gonna be looking like I was on the losing end of the fight and that I had no other choice.

Which is one of the reasons I carry OC spray. I feel if I carry a deadly weapon, I should also carry a less lethal weapon. Even if the OC spray has little effect on the person, I'm still spraying them and attempting to escape from the situation. If he keeps pursuing me, it makes my stance a little more believable that I was just trying to get away.

I want the circumstances to be so glaringly obvious on it's surface that I had no other choice in doing what I did.

I just don't see juries giving people a free pass for routinely shooting unarmed people. Trust me, if they did give everyone a pass, you'd see a lot less people getting beat up. JMHO

I don't think that the written medium always lends itself to the conveyance of thoughts on state of mind and similar topics. I think that most that have contributed to this thread are pretty much on the same page, with possibly minor differences.

AZ and you other h to h fans,
I was pretty good at taking care of myself years back. But now with two heart attacks, resulting in taking heavy blood thinners. Being a gerry. If cornerd and cannot convince someone
that I don't want to fight and will not fight. I wiil do what is necessary to convince them to quit. I may have to face a jury but I will not take a beating. All of you will cross this bridge in time
and your thoughts and actions will change. Food for thought.
Semper Fi

@Buckeye...I don't think the "ego" comment was directed at you. I think it was more of a general philosophy statement.

Look, I do understand where you are coming from. I know exactly what the "Have you ever killed anybody" question is like. I have heard it from school kids, grannies, people at the store while buying coffee...you name it. How do you even answer it? I don't lie, and I certainly don't glorify the act, I DO try to side step it by saying..."You hope you never have to." It isn't a lie...it just doesn't tell the whole story that is painful.

I think where we are missing the connect point here is I am speaking from years of seeing good people make the mistake of a lifetime through no malice or intent to do wrong. The court is the final judge no matter what the law says, it still falls into that gray interpretation os "reasonableness". Does it suck? Yep. Has it become so complicated to be a free American in a free America because of over legislation and lawyer-ese gobblety-****? DAMNED SKIPPY it has!

I am just trying to put some hard earned knowledge out there.

Do I personally think I would go hand to hand first? Yes. Absent a credible threat to MY mind, and my experience, and MY level of training..yes. I know this because I haev hd to do it, and I know HOW to do it. Okay...NOT bragging. Just experience speaking.

Would I expect a 65 year old man to take a savage beating at the hands of a 30 something thug? Absolutely not. In that sense what might be a bruised lip and a cracked rib to someone of youthful age, might very well be and could even be EXPECTED to be life threatening injury. Shoot the bugger Grandpa!

Do what you HAVE TO to survive..but not more than you have to. I know it's a fine line. Like the line between reasonable fear and bare fear. Reasonable is a trick bag in and of itself...your reasonableness may not be the same as mine, but just as reasonable....see what I mean. It will come down to the reasonableness of those 12 people in the jury box.

I don't expect anyone to allow themselves to be a victim. I also absolutely believe that it is the responsibility of anyone who goes armed to get professional training if, for no other reason, than to make you a better protector of your family. Please note I didn't say it should be a LAW that you have to get training before being granted the privilidge of carrying by the government...I believe the right of the individual to go armed is an absolute and not subject to pissant legislation...we have the Second Ammendment as our guarantor of our rights.

But going so armed is a grave responsibility. It is a heavy burden. Knowing when and when NOT to shoot is a paramount responsibility.

Look...you have my respect because YOU made a pledge to protect our country, our freedom, and our way of life KNOWING you would go in harm's way. You stood shoulder to shoulder with other fine young Amrican heroes and put on a uniform and decided that if you had to give your life for your brothers...you would do it.

I made that same oath to my own community saying that I would protect them, even at the cost of my own life. No, I never served in your uniform, I served in my own. I make no claims to be a hero...far from it. I was just a guy who saw a need, and a job that needed doing. I answered the call and gave it all I had.

So..we CAN agree to disagree, have us a cold beer and swap stories sometime okay?

AZ and you other h to h fans,
I was pretty good at taking care of myself years back. But now with two heart attacks, resulting in taking heavy blood thinners. Being a gerry. If cornerd and cannot convince someone
that I don't want to fight and will not fight. I wiil do what is necessary to convince them to quit. I may have to face a jury but I will not take a beating. All of you will cross this bridge in time
and your thoughts and actions will change. Food for thought.
Semper Fi

Read my post under yours. In NO way would I expect you to take a beating. You would be perfectly justified in shooting down an attacker. You have a more than reasonable expectation that even a couple of punches could kill you.

When my time comes, and I know the clock isn't ticking backward...you can bet I HOPE I am smart enough to know when I can't roar with the young lions any longer, and that I am wise enough to know when that moment is, and smart enough to heed my common sense.

I don't think that the written medium always lends itself to the conveyance of thoughts on state of mind and similar topics. I think that most that have contributed to this thread are pretty much on the same page, with possibly minor differences.

I don't think that the written medium always lends itself to the conveyance of thoughts on state of mind and similar topics. I think that most that have contributed to this thread are pretty much on the same page, with possibly minor differences.