Lindsey Stone Fired Over Facebook Photo

Lindsey Stone, a 30-year-old Massachusetts native, has been terminated because of the photo (shown left) she posted on her Facebook page. Lindsey worked for LIFE (Living Independent Forever), a Cape Cod-based nonprofit organization that assists adults with learning disabilities. Jamie Schuh, who took the photo, and Lindsey’s supervisor at LIFE, was also terminated.

The two were on a company-paid trip to Washington D.C. when the photo was taken. The photo shows Lindsey mocking a sign at Arlington National Cemetery. The photo went viral and over 30,000 people liked a Facebook page set up to demand her firing. The two have apologized for the gag:

We never meant any disrespect to any of the people nationwide who have served this country and defended our freedom so valiantly.

While the photo obviously mocks the sign, many apparently thought it mocked those buried at Arlington National Cemetery. A sign demanding “Silence and Respect” deserves to be mocked. The wording of the sign projects a sense of arrogance and entitlement common to institutions that view themselves as sacred cows.

Adding the word “Please” to the sign would change the command to a request, a more sensible sentiment.

justagurlinseattle 1, December 2, 2012 at 9:22 am
…
My Grandfather is buried at Arlington Natl. and in NO WAY did I feel that she was being disrespectful of the Fallen Soldiers there….
She MOCKED a SIGN…..
=======================================
There is a story about another soldier buried there who, when he died, was the highest ranking officer in Iraq to have died in that war.

He committed suicide because of the war crimes he saw being committed in a we he came to see as a dishonorable commercial enterprise:

Before putting a bullet through his head, Westhusing had been deeply disturbed by abuses carried out by American contractors in Iraq, including allegations that they had witnessed or even participated in the murder of Iraqis. His suicide note included claims that his two commanders, Lt. Gen. Petraeus and Maj. Gen. Josephy Fil, tolerated a mission based on “corruption, human rights abuses and liars. I am sullied—no more. I didn’t volunteer to support corrupt, money grubbing contractors, nor work for commanders only interested in themselves.” One of those commanders: the future leader of American forces in Iraq, and then Afghanistan, Gen. David Petraeus.

“People claim that this is not a First Amendment issue….
BUT, I beg to differ…..”

It’s not a 1st Amendment issue. They weren’t fired by government action, but by a private employer. It may be a wrongful termination issue, but maybe not. It depends on the terms of their employment. Many contracts contain clauses that would allow this kind of firing, but there was no charges filed against them that I know of.

It’s not a 1st Amendment issue. They weren’t fired by government action, but by a private employer. It may be a wrongful termination issue, but maybe not. It depends on the terms of their employment. Many contracts contain clauses that would allow this kind of firing, but there was no charges filed against them that I know of.

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Yes…. I get that it was not the Government that sanctioned this….

HOWEVER…. She is still imprisoned….

The RESULT is still the same……

If people overlook a detail such as the fact that she was NOT mocking the dead….. that she was ONLY mocking a sign… and people refuse to see the TRUTH…. and refuse to have a sense of homour…..
Then citizens can petition to have you fired…..
Make you fear for your life…. and cause you to have to go into hiding…..

The woman is a smart ass no doubt. She made a crude joke, a tasteless picture. She should be embarrassed but since what she did had no impact on her job the firing is over reaction. This is a sad, sick, society that reacts this way

“Bryce referred to a “two-inch stack of documents, obtained over the past 15 months under the Freedom of Information Act, that provides many details of Westhusing’s suicide…. The documents echo the story told by Westhusing’s friends. ‘Something he saw [in Iraq] drove him to this,’ one Army officer who was close to Westhusing said in an interview. ‘The sum of what he saw going on drove him’ to take his own life. ‘It’s because he believed in duty, honor, country that he’s dead.’ ”

In Iraq, Westhusing worked under two generals: Maj. Gen. Joseph Fil, and Petraeus, then a lieutenant general. But Bryce continued: “By late May, Westhusing was becoming despondent over what he was seeing.” When his body was found, a note was found nearby addressed to Petraeus and Fil. It read:

“Thanks for telling me it was a good day until I briefed you. [Redacted name]—You are only interested in your career and provide no support to your staff—no msn [mission] support and you don’t care. I cannot support a msn that leads to corruption, human right abuses and liars. I am sullied—no more. I didn’t volunteer to support corrupt, money grubbing contractors, nor work for commanders only interested in themselves. I came to serve honorably and feel dishonored. I trust no Iraqi. I cannot live this way. All my love to my family, my wife and my precious children. I love you and trust you only. Death before being dishonored any more.

“Trust is essential—I don’t know who trust anymore. Why serve when you cannot accomplish the mission, when you no longer believe in the cause, when your every effort and breath to succeed meets with lies, lack of support, and selfishness? No more. Reevaluate yourselves, cdrs [commanders]. You are not what you think you are and I know it.”

Twelve days after Westhusing’s body was found, Army investigators talked with his widow, who told them: “I think Ted gave his life to let everyone know what was going on. They need to get to the bottom of it, and hope all these bad things get cleaned up.””

Many contracts have a broad morals clause such a firing could be justified under and/or a clause about not brining negative publicity to the company itself, both relevant as they were on a trip paid for by the company and most of the press mentioned that fact.

Almost every employer will can an employee who does things that bring disrepute to the company. I would have fired her for this. She is free to say and do whatever she wants as long as it is not illegal, but when my email is filled up with a few thousand people threatening to boycott our firm, she is gone!

None of which is imprisonment and none of which is government action. If anything is to be done legally about the website, that is up to Stone to file suit. She’s the only one with standing to do so. Same goes for the death threats. She can file a report with the police.

Just an afterthought. I don’t want anyone working for us who exercises judgement this poor. Dumb enough to post a picture like this on Facebook is too dumb to work for us. In fact, our employee handbook spells out guidelines for use of social media and blogging. It says specifically that anything an employee posts on line is a reflection on the firm, and explains there are bright lines one does not cross if they want to remain employed.

That’s not what nick said. That’s a straw man. What nick stated was part of the nexus of facts that gives the employer the right to fire her. Businesses respond to customer pressure. They are a business and as a charity, their customers are their donors both potential and actual.

“ONE thing tho….. she flipped off a sign…. NOT the tomb…. NOT the graves…..”

***********************

Honestly? Do you really think that those words “Arlington National Cemetery” circling the request for respect had nothing to do with the graphic memoralization of her antics. You can compartmentalize all you want to, but the rule remains that while you have a right to say most anything or even do most anything within the law you are not free from the reprobation of other non-government actors. While I respect dear Lindsey’s right to express herself, I’m equally impressed by her employer’s right to express itself by canning her. And if forced to choose between the two, I like the employer’s sentiments and motivation more.

First, it was a really stupid joke photo. Second, when you work for a non-profit, as I have, you must be cognizant of your actions in the course of your duties, so as not to discredit your employer. She was on a business sponsored trip, therefore by extension on company business. I have been on such trips at hotel conferences. If after hours I got stinking drunk in the hotel bar and made an ass of myself which caused repercussions for my non-profit I should be fired, even if technically off-duty. on-profits generally rely on the good will of the public for supporting donations. The ill will bred by this was no doubt harmful to LIFE.

1. Yes the sign comes off as arrogant, but on the other hand, it was probably put there as a result of instances where folks showed absolutely NO concern or care for those around them. Like the idiots who use cell phones in theaters. Signs like this tend to be placed in reaction to gross lacks of courtesy.

2. They shouldn’t have gotten fired but since they were there on the company dime and especially if that was noted on FB – they should have received some punishment. If they were damaging their company’s brand.

3. In general, people seem to forget that when they post these imbecilic photos to social media sites – they aren’t being seen by only their best buds who have the same sophomoric sense of humor. Yes, they have the right to do it, but they better be prepared to feel the pain when they get the brunt of every one else’s opinion regarding how stupid they are.

People need to show some common sense – especially when it comes to social media and the internet. As an old adage goes: you can’t unsay cruel words. Well, neither can you un-post social media mistakes that have gone viral.

JAG, What Gene said. You know JAG, you’re a woman who plays craps and is not afraid to behave badly. I like that. However, in our culture there are consequences for acts like this. The government was not involved, this was a private enterprise who terminated her. Now, she has recourse in the courts if she wishes to pursue it. What else would one reasonably expect.

Mindless attacks. When will the people who attacked Ms. Stone do something about George Bush who gave the entire country the finger and then with his Mission Accomplished performance with flight suit et al gave the finger to every serving soldier, sailor, marine and Air Force member. Amazing what some people find offensive.

I tend to think we fetishize the military too much in this country. And, I don’t see the photo as intentionally being disrespectful to those buried at Arlington Cemetery. I see it as just a joke, perhaps in poor taste and easily interpreted as mocking the dead, but not something that she should get fired for. But . . . as others point out, definitely not a First Amendment violation because no government action and I really don’t blame the employer either as once the shit hits the fan, the employer’s primary responsibility is to the nonprofit and it’s not helpful to have thousands of people complaining and causing problems because one of your employees offended them. She showed poor judgment. She got unlucky that out of millions of photos posted on line, this one happened to go viral. She has a right to free speech, but others have a right to complain about her speech.

I swung like a windvane, having been military, PR man for a multi-nat operating in USA etc, and a devotiee of free speech resulting from free thought.

I’ll summartize in one sentence. The constitution did not give us free speech to have it then taken away by employers, or other substitutes for big brother.

Frankly, I feel that too little free speech is the major cause of the ills of this nation. That is a subject requiring long discussion and a POV requiring much support. Later..

This particular case id an example of the ills of our not defending free speech. That she may be regarded si or so by those who know her is her risk. That she uses social media for one of the major reasons that it was created is a praiseworthy practice for which we should be obliged as citizens to defend in the name of our constitution. All else is mob rule, even if the corporations lead the pack in the name of profits.

.How many are willing to be a Husling or a Manning? Could there be some connection to our fewness to being ruled by our employers.

If we work at Ford, we can still buy and pari in the lot with a Chrysler. So, thje right to think (or not) and speak must be defended.

it is amazing that some people can take any story and turn it into an excuse to personally bash conservatives, Bush, and anyone else that doesn’t follow their same politics. Rather pathetic, really.

Anyway this is not a free speech issue. Lord knows I am a major advocate for free speech. I am sickened by the number of cases where our freedom of speech is being taken away. America is already one of only countries where freedom of speech is universal and not just applied to sweet flowery speech.

However Freedom of Speech does means you are protected from consequences of any sort. It simply means you have the right to such speech and can be arrested for it.

Making fun of a person with a disability is disgusting but it shouldn’t come along with jail time. Making fun of your boss with disability should not result in jail time but that doesn’t mean you can’t be fired by your offended boss.

Showing disrespect in a public manner, getting a large number of people upset with you can result in personal consequences not involving the state.

This is especially true when your actions have an effect on the bottom line. When tens of thousands of people are calling for your firing you may very well be fired. It isn’t a freedom of speech issue. It is nothing but business. Her actions did or appeared to hurt the company’s income. Her actions caused grief and strife, upsetting the running of the business. Her actions resulted in massive bad publicity. No doubt her fellow employees who rely on the income from her would rather have her fired than see a reduction in bonuses/hours as a result of her actions.

tldr: yes, The company bent to the will of the Torches and Pitchforks. As all companies must when they rely on the money from those torches and pitchforks.

OMG that “Black Friday” tape is so appalling! I do remember standing in line from 4 a.m. in front of the museum in DC in six-below-zero weather to see the Vermeer exhibit. But to buy a plastic toy, OMG, it’s too much.

it is amazing that some people can take any story and turn it into an excuse to personally bash conservatives, Bush, and anyone else that doesn’t follow their same politics. Rather pathetic, really.

Jeff…. YOU may not like it… BUT fact is… Bush did lie to get us into a war…..he and his buddies were looking at Iraq WAYYYY before 9/11…. then after 9/11 Bush had his people do ANYTHING they could to tie it in with Iraq….
The CIA kept saying that Iraq had NO ties to 9/11…. and Bush pushed them, until they would find the ties he needed……

and fact is… The Republicans went after Acorn for NO REAL reason but a bunch of scare tactics about how Acorn was committing voter FRAUD…..
when what was going on was Voter Registration Fraud….
that is something that is caught before people are even allowed to vote….
BUT, because Acorn was an organization that helped the poor and minorities, and their main voting demographic was Democratic…..
Had that Acorn been helping Right wing Christians….. They would not have raised a fuss……

“I’ll summartize in one sentence. The constitution did not give us free speech to have it then taken away by employers, or other substitutes for big brother.”

The Constitution doesn’t say anything about your right to free speech as it pertains to contractual and employment relationships.

It says, “Congress shall make no law [. . .] abridging the freedom of speech”.

End of story.

You are free to contract for damn near about anything. There are some restrictions of course, you can’t contract to minors in most circumstances (there are exceptions), you can’t contract to do something illegal, etc., but these are all private actions. If you don’t want to abide by the terms of your employment contract? You are free to leave at any time. Every job comes with strings attached that you may not personally like. That’s the reality of the working world. That’s part of why they call it work instead of fun.

Really, the manufactured outrage over this woman’s legally rightful firing is ridiculous.

The Yankees built that cemetary on the grounds of Bobby Lee’s plantation. They stole his slaves, his land and planted all those dead bodies there. It is time to Occupy Arlington. Take back the plantation.

“I’ll summartize in one sentence. The constitution did not give us free speech to have it then taken away by employers, or other substitutes for big brother.”

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but not to your facts. It may or may not be that the Constitution should preclude employers from punishing employees for what they say. It is not the case that the constitution does preclude employers from punishing employees for what they say.

Congress ahall make no law, that we’ll leave to the states, the employers and other big brothers to do. Better now?

To deny the effect on freedom of thinking, a necessary process preceding speech, and freedom of speech done by repression from employers, to take one of many influences, is to deny reality.

Now you juggle the legal part as you will, but reality is as I paint it I believe.

And since you address my argument using my words, you might pay me the courtesy by addressing me by moniker. But it is your option. We usually did when I grew up in Carolina, between well-brought up folks.

As for this argument:
“You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but not to your facts.”

As a matter of fact, we spend a great deal of time here discussing the latest distortions of the Constitution by the Courts including Sct. So what are the facts that they use for their work?

Also a reminder that all which is not explicitly expressed in the Bill of Rights are reserved to the People. Not to the employers. We’d still have slavery and indentured service if we did not have that to depend on for People Power.

“Congress ahall make no law, that we’ll leave to the states, the employers and other big brothers to do. Better now?”

Not in the slightest. It shows a complete lack of understanding of how the Constitution relates to the states and to private action. “Big Brother” as well. Orwell’s creation is a creature of state power, not a corporation. If you wish to bemoan corporate oppression, at least try to pick an appropriate artistic example.

“You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but not to your facts.”

And the facts are this woman’s Constitutional rights were not violated in any way.

There are even government exceptions to the free speech right. For example, when a judge issues a gag order on litigants and their attorneys. Then there are legal restrictions on revealing classified information. HIPAA laws prevent your doctor or therapist from revealing what you tell them except under the most extraordinary circumstances. There are more, but those three jump out at me after only a moment of thought.

Nobody abridged the rights of these women to say what they wanted. What private actors did about it afterwards is quite a different issue.

I plan to do some free-speechifying in 2013 that is going to make some people very angry, make them feel insulted, make them scream bloody murder that they are being slandered, etc. etc. I am going to do it for the express purpose of having them come after me with lawsuits for libel, slander and etc. I am going to be making little movies called “The innocence of [fill in the blank]” just like the idiotic movie that was blamed for causing the BenGazi attacks. I’m going to be including respected people as the targets of my free expression. I will not break any laws, stalk anybody, or do anything criminal. BUT I DO EXPECT REPERCUSSIONS. If I didn’t want repercussions, I would not be exercising my free speech rights in a deliberately provocative way.

So we should, I think, all expect to get the natural results of the things we choose to do. When we have brave people standing up to tyrannical governments and getting killed outright in the streets on a daily basis, why should we begin to think we can make any protest we like without any negative consequences?

BUT I DO EXPECT REPERCUSSIONS. If I didn’t want repercussions, I would not be exercising my free speech rights in a deliberately provocative way.

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in MY opinion the guy that made the movie Innocents Of Muslims KNEW he would incite rioting and violence…. he KNEW people’s lives would be in danger….. this is WHY he did it.. So, he could point and say… LOOK at those SAVAGES…….

now as for the photo…. when I first saw the photo without reading the article…. NEVER in a million years would I have thought that people would view it as her flipping the finger at the dead Soldiers…. as what I saw, and rather clearly… was a woman pretending to yell… while flipping off a sign that asked for quite…. or rather DEMANDED quiet and respect…..
I also, would not expect that if I posted this photo, that one of my friends would share it until it went viral……

I DID not at all see that she was trying o make a political statement…. NOR that she was dancing on graves of dead Soldiers…..
I saw it for what it was… Mocking a sign of authority…. NOTHING MORE….

I do think that the MEDIA News outlets like controversy and fanned the flames as to get viewers upset… so they would get ratings….

I think that BEFORE people saw the photo, they were TOLD they should be upset…. and followed that lead…..

I did not see this via network or cable news…. I saw an article…..
and the photo FIRST….. Therefor I saw it without somebody TELLING me what TO SEE and telling me I should be upset…..

Was/is there a thread on how times change and why they do or don’t. Mikes’ I think. Well, I’ll post here as it is in tribute to a woman who spoke her mind when women were not even regarded as worth listening to. Bob Dole disdained her, as did Nixon on his China tour. He was addressing a fertilizer conference while she was part of the 30,000 member women’ s conference on the environment Appropriate place for his disparaging comment on her, she said.

AY,
I was thinking specifically of instances where the government can tell individual private citizens to STFU.

Employees of the government are no different in many respects to privately employed persons. Revealing company secrets can get you prosecuted in many instances. Bringing disrepute on your employer is an almost 100% guarantee you will be fired.

The law of the land, argued very often before the Sct, concerns the right to free speech. Now what Congress is confined to doing by the Constitution and specifically the Bill of Rights, should apply to all agencies, both private and public. Or else why have a constitution?

Now, the Constitution, once signed, was quickly suppressed/concealed as to the rights of the individual. Rights were for the founders, not flounders like us.
Go fish.

Well, t’is time to use the Constitution as it was intended. To override all parties to safeguard such basic needs so as to achieve a democracy, in good time. Until we got unions, and what a battle that was, the employee had nothing to say as to employee rights. Was all that for naught. Should the misdeeds of a few be used to take away the rights of the many. One Meany does not make all mean. If corporations have ambitions to select Presidents, why not labor?

Shall we go back to unhealthy, unsafe working conditions? Slave wages? No compensation for work-related disease? Yes, if some have their way.
We have exported those jobs, for now, to slave labor countries. Is that an honorable solution to brag about as proof of our devotion to democracy?

This woman was unwise considering the nation’s reality. Some would criticize her choice of expressing contempt for power. But to deny that her right of free speech is nullified through employer power is silly, quite simple.

Here, in fact, a company would be embarassed to curtail a person’s speech in this fashion. I know so as I have used that right flagrantly.
And faced the hate in my American board members faces without flinching.
The concept of cooperation between employee and employer was not even a dream for them. Unions were nightmares for them.

The only real democracy in America is when free speech and good education for all is achieved. And that won’t happen soon.

As soon as I posted it…. I thought oh these are government employees….. But traditionally….. Most government employees are free the say what they want….. The others sign contracts of employment for strict nn disclosure….. And are not suppose to bring attention or disrespect to the office….

Quite simply put. In a democratic country, an employer whose speech or actions had caused public irritation pointed at his company, should simply reply: “We have free speech here. We can not impede that. You certainly DO NOT want your speech curtailed, do you?” And that would be the end of that.

Just so was it in Denmark when the cartoonist made ones which irritated muslim countries. No one spoke of curtailing speech or firing the cartoonist——in spite of Danish dairies losing millions in sales to muslim countries.

The price of free speech is so high in Denmark. Just so is it in Sweden, where an employer considers an employees deeds only in terms of it being a hinder to grant them the freedom of working with confidence as to their capability to do the work. We are not soldiers in uniform to be paraded for the honor of our company. We are solely resources and paid for that alone.

Our political leaders mirror the populace: gays, trans(?), lesbians, con men, BSers, psychopaths, small thieves, exploiters of privilege and rules for expenses, etc. But the devil take the one who interferes with the laws useage by the bureaucracy for political or private advantage. Or seeks the source of a leak.

Perfect, hell no. But blame the bad part on the climate and the darkness.

While I agree that this woman was stupid to share the picture and that her employer has the right to fire her, absent a contractual restriction on the termination right of the employer, but I think this didn’t add up to a termination in my mind.

@JAG – If I saw your gravatar profile correctly, you’re “into fashion” and living in Sweden? Seems that something so fleeting as fashion would be indicative of a belief in conspicuous consumption and elitism. Beginning to think you don’t really don’t have much of a dog in this fight, deflecting the primary issue to one of consumerism.

When it comes to ANC, I do have a dog in this fight, a big one. I served 10 years in our nation’s military, and to most of us, this is our primary place of worship to respect those who have either paid the ultimate price, or like my father, a POW in WWII, or other distinguished personnel.

Had Ms. Stone done this in my presence, the next photo might have been the insertion of my foot in her ass. And I wouldn’t have minded any of the ensuing consequences for exercising my opinion. Would really like to know who on this list has ever been willing to put your life on the line for the preservation of what we enjoy. If you haven’t, take one step forward. Mespo, stand fast!

What junctionshamus said. All the National Cemeteries, not just Arlington, are places where you are expected to behave with dignity and respect. Go back and read the Gettysburg Address to get a sense of what it means to be buried in a National Cemetery. Lincoln said it better than anyone has before or since.

If I saw your gravatar profile correctly, you’re “into fashion” and living in Sweden? Seems that something so fleeting as fashion would be indicative of a belief in conspicuous consumption and elitism. Beginning to think you don’t really don’t have much of a dog in this fight, deflecting the primary issue to one of consumerism.

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How you were able to pack so MUCH wrong, into so FEW words,
is simply astonishing….

NO…. I’m NOT into Fashion… I have STYLE…..
There is a difference, BUT, I do not expect you to understand this.

anyway, what the HELL does that have to do with this topic????

If you are talking about the video I posted about the people degrading themselves on Black Friday…
had YOU had been paying ANY attention… YOU would have seen that Dredd mentioned in one of his posts…..
“It reminded me of those “Black Friday” stampedes that kill people.”

as to your assertion that I do not have dog in this fight because, as you so eloquently put it, I’m “into fashion” and living in Sweden” is ONE of the most RIDICULOUS comments I have read, here on this Blawg…

“Seems that something so fleeting as fashion would be indicative of a belief in conspicuous consumption and elitism.”

It is AMAZING, YOU get all that from a black and white photo of me taken 20 years ago….

When it comes to ANC, I do have a dog in this fight, a big one. I served 10 years in our nation’s military, and to most of us, this is our primary place of worship to respect those who have either paid the ultimate price, or like my father, a POW in WWII, or other distinguished personnel.

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Well…. This does NOT give you more of a “Dog in this fight” than anyone else here….

My Grandfather is buried there.

and as for your intelligent wording on how you would have dealt with Ms. Stone, had YOU witnessed her taking this photo….
WELL… YOU didn’t… NOR did anyone else for that matter….
It is OBVIOUS that she is not drawing attention to herself… that she is bending down to be discreet…. and in general, did NOT disturb anybody….

Had she troubled anyone there… has she interrupted the peace…. had she offended anybody while she was taking this photo, WE would have heard about it by now…. and YET, This is NOT the case….

“Had Ms. Stone done this in my presence, the next photo might have been the insertion of my foot in her ass.”

So, if you disagree with somebody and do not like their actions,even though they are NOT hurting or disrupting anybody, YOUR way of dealing with them, is with violence???

WOW!!!! This is how the Taliban reacts to things they disagree with as well… just at a different level…

So 10 years service gives you the right to decide whose ass you plant a kick into. Wow. Thank goodness all vets are not so screwy as you are. Don’t blame it on your service time, bror. There are thousands for every screwy one of you who don’t have such crazy ideas as you do. Worship where you will and how you will, but don’t presume that your “service” gives you such rights.

One of them might be a lady Ranger who would tear you a new a55hole before you could get off the kick. What a punk you are. What was your service? Do you dare say. Or is insulting women all you can do.

If you are an example of the volunteer army then I prefer the draft one that I served in for two years active and one year reserve, ending as exec officer of a company.

I avoided a cryptic comment to the aforementioned JunctionShamus, well just because, but I am so f–king sick and tired of these sanctimonious, only-I-am-a-patriot-and-have-the-right-to-pass-judgment blowhards I could spit.

We heard it all during the run up t the Iraq debacle: If you weren’t a vet you had no standing to even an opinion,and you were probably a cheese eating surrender monkey to boot.

Anyone with an understanding of what democracy means wouldn’t claim superiority over any other citizen just because they happened to be in the military.

I disagree with statements about the sign being arrogant. It is just a sign. I disagree with the suggestion that the word ‘please’ should be included. It’s no less logical to infer a request from the sign’s phrasing than it is to infer a requirement. Take it how you like.

Ahhhhh… My Gravatar profile… hahaha…. I wrote it as a JOKE….
If you READ what I actually WRITE in my comments, I am NOT the idiot Gurl who only likes to shop…. I was being trite….
In fact I NEVER mention shopping…. nor do I comment on any Fashion websites….
and if you google Justagurlinseattle, you will mostly see a LOT of comments on political news sites spreading my Liberal views….

It is quite clear you are missing a sense of humour….

and you missed the part where I also said I like telling Republicans were to stick it….

I tend to get an idea of who a person is by reading what the write over time… NOT what they quickly jot down in a profile…. and as I said, I wrote it as a JOKE, being that NONE of my comments EVER mention shopping….

“And the facts are this woman’s Constitutional rights were not violated in any way.”

Absolutely. Putting this picture on a social media site where it can go viral, which it has, could easily adversely impact the company (NPO). A company has no responsibility to protect your free speech through employing you if it adversely affects their business, or if they perceive it will.

“The wording of the sign projects a sense of arrogance and entitlement common to institutions that view themselves as sacred cows.” So many institutions, so many sacred cows.

I drove through Arlington Cemetery one day, a few years ago. I dont know if the ground is hallowed and I dont know the history, motivation or background of all the people who are buried there but for the most part they are young men, civilians mostly, who were asked to fight for their country. They went, knowing the possible outcome. I imagine many went willingly, as we saw after 9-11, even though we had a draft in our past. These young men, at the beginning of life, gave theirs because they thought America is an idea worth the cost, their family and friends were worth the cost.

I have read many tales of heroism from all of our wars, they amaze me and humble me. That men like that are buried in Arlington makes it sacred ground. You cannot visit that place and not shed tears.

What that woman did was heartless, she has every right to do it but she is a heartless buffoon nonetheless. Her behavior is disgusting.

The fact that we should even need a sign telling us to show reverence for our fallen citizen soldiers is an indication of how low we have come as a society.

Bron, Write many tearjerking movie scripts? Garbage. Show me a millionaire’s son buried there and then I will weep. America, the land of no opportunity for the poor, offers a “good deal” in Iraq, etc. A hoot.

DonS, never give up the fight. The idiots will win.

Bugdrown, most of the vsitors can not understand more than these few words.

Shamus, where is your answer on your service record? Nothing to brag about I guess. Were you ever in danger? Doubt it. Memberr of the VFW?

Ariel, and I thought you intelligent, or perhaps that comment was deep irony.
Company welfare before human constitutional rights. Right! If we ignored it and went about our business allowing people to speak, and concern ourselves with the message or style, but not bring out the product boycott threat, then it all would be solved. What a heap of crap we are.

Thanks GeneH. Says it all. Both as to the pitchforkers and the ignoble ignorant leaders, and the stupid system behind it all.

Anybody I missed. Oh yeah, GURL. Must go read your profile and get a laugh. We need more girls like you here to wake up the bigots and hypocrites.

I know many people who grow up in modest circumstances and go on to do quite well in this country.

Dave Thomas was an orphan as an example. The stories are numerous of poor people rising to wealth. It isnt that hard to do. Marriott hotels started as A&W shops in Washington, DC. I could go on and on.

I knew that the ex-pat dig would come. You telegraphed it when writing to her. Now you are showing your jingoistic bigotted side.

So are you going to:
—telll us about your military career? Or are you too ashamed to say?
—tell us why you think a military experience gives the right to physically abuse others in a criminal fashion?
—tell us when they diagnosed dementia, or is it Alzheimers?
—tell us why Gurl is a spoiled brat?

Stop waving the flag. We are dealing with a bully here. A VFW cap/sap does not make him either a patriot or a judge on other peoples need for physical violence.

Your red herring won’t distract us from deriding “patriot” idiots for their foolishness.

Or have you supported all our wars? Did you do armed service? I did, and risked being shipped to Vietnam.

I did not even consider the “rightness” of the war there. The news ate up the Tonkin BS, as did the public, congress etc. So why not me too.

Getting an understanding of that con game requires reading “Secrets” by Ellsberg, a man with demonstrated guts in a uniformed capacity and a genuine patriot of his country. He worked for two slaving years to become a marine officer, and acvanced on merit to batttalion S-3, planning ops off the ME med coast on board a troop ship. Ready and waiting for the order to come.

Hope you have read it.

This Shamus creep won’t even reveal his service record, although he feels that it gives him the right to do criminal acts. What kind of people do you support?

I’m a spoiled brat, because I don’t bow down and kiss your Patriotic Ass…..

Could you be anymore transparent????

You came here with your BS about being in the Military, thinking that makes YOU better than ME… THOUGH… I must say… I HIGHLY doubt it… If you get your feelings hurt so easily as to want to kick a woman’s ass over a photo… sounds to me as if you have awfully thin skin….

You then try to insult me, rather than debate the topic at hand…..

You might want to think about taking advantage of that GI Bill…. Then maybe in the future you can DEBATE me, rather than using insults….

I707 – Have you been so totally swept up in your “cradle to grave” caretaking state that you can’t get off your own rear end and do a little research about me. It’s out there, easy enough that JAG found it. So, you “could” have been shipped off to Nam. That would make you as much of a REMF as you might consider me. And such personal, vindictive petty snark about bikers. Tell me I707 – what has been your contribution to the rights of others?

As for JAG, yeah, I’m such a dumb ass that I’m having trouble thinking of the female equivalent of a misogynist to describe you. If I knew what it was, I’d say it; but if calling you a spoiled brat makes you cry, then any stronger word would probably make your head implode. At least you’ve got a bigger set of huevos than certain PR spokes-whores on this list. And as with I707, what have you done for others lately, other than to admonish them about their lack of style.

And to the both of you, keep it coming. At least it keeps you occupied with your petty meaningless rants against others, and like I said – DILLIGAF.

We’ve lost the essence of the original article – (1) The woman screwed up; (2) She was on her employer’s dime and time; (3) She committed a certain act, for which there were consequences, and whether she thought about them or not, she was being too cute for her own good; (4) She flaunted her stupidity to a world-wide audience, bringing discredit to her employer; (5) The employer weighed their options, and fired her; (6) End of story.

As for my contributions to this thread, there are things that result in a visceral reaction for me, and unfortunately, Ms. Stone hit the trifecta; (1/2)Arlington is THE highest place for military honor and respect to fallen heroes; (3) It is also my father’s resting place. Were it that JAG had more respect for her grandfather.

BTW – Whether someone agrees with me in whole or in part, I’ve never considered that as having them fight my battles for me. Interesting that I’ve drawn some very strong support regarding past issues from you I707. While I’ve appreciated that, I’ve never been of the opinion you had my back in a particular “fight”; it was just agreeing on an issue. No more, no less.

As used in a sentence: “My ex-wife’s attorney came off as a misandrist.”

Thank you, feeling smarter already! Giving myself a promotion from dumb-ass to moron, even as we speak!

—————————————————————————————-

“Adding the word “Please” to the sign would change the command to a request, a more sensible sentiment.” – If people were more respectful, would such a sign be necessary, whether it said ‘Please’ or not…

What have you done lately? Today you made an ass of yourself. I have made clear several times that I was soldier because of the draft, no other reasons. And I made also clear that I have had no clue as to what was happening or why in Nam, even when I was designing B-52 base at Ban U Tapao for that war. (Still secret base today. Try and look at it on GMap.)
But you still won’t tell us what you did. I have given my career in summary several times.

But I have never regarded my service as giving me rights to kick ass, as you did.

Sure, my friend, I have both warmed to you as a person and liked your ideas—-two separate processes.
And if I use unpleasant argumentation tools, such is the way of JTblog unfortunately. But you came out kicking ass. And that leaves little room for discussion.

So was the expat dig a friendly clap on the butt? I am an American citizen, solely so, and prepare to do whatever duty that calls for. But agreeing with their foreign and domestiic policies is not one of them.

Rows of crosses turn me off. Prefer the wall and the statues at the Nam memorial.

Last for now: Translate REMF and DILLIGAFF.

BTW what were you saying here?

“BTW – Whether someone agrees with me in whole or in part, I’ve never considered that as having them fight my battles for me. Interesting that I’ve drawn some very strong support regarding past issues from you I707. While I’ve appreciated that, I’ve never been of the opinion you had my back in a particular “fight”; it was just agreeing on an issue. No more, no less.”

“(1/2)Arlington is THE highest place for military honor and respect to fallen heroes; (3) It is also my father’s resting place. Were it that JAG had more respect for her grandfather.”

*****************

I agree with your comments about Arlington National Cemetery though I think Gettysburg and Normandy deserve some mention, too. It’s beyond me that any adult could stand in the midst of the immense sacrifice that place represents and still act as though she were on a middle school trip to Disneyland. There are some lines you do not cross in a society lest you feel the wrath most all of us — not an observation particularly legal or well sourced or even logical, but somehow deeply human.

I707 – Re: Ex-pat? Just needling. I know by your previous comments your there for personal reasons, and not anti-US, maybe anti-devolved American society. I respect your opinions more than most as you are a dues payer. While you might have been drafted, you went willingly. Put it on the line for any eventuality.

In my personal e-mails, I have a tag-line which reads: A veteran – whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve – is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to “The United States of America,” for an amount of “up to and including my life.” That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it. — Author Unknown

I still stand by this, not for myself, but out of respect to the men and women who were willing to do so voluntarily, or did when ordered to do so.

While I’d rather you see for yourself, I’ll tell you I was an intel analyst and CI special agent from the late 70s to the late 80s. The details are on my page. Nothing high-speed/low drag, but interesting enough to say the least.

Re: My boot + her ass. 66.6% figurative-33.3% literal. For “a swift kick in the ass comment,” you and JAG had no problems in escalating the battle to one of argumentum ad hominem, and objectively, I might say, “So, who are the asses now,” but I won’t. Maybe the three of us have gone about the ass-route gloriously, so I’ll extend an olive branch at this time, to get back to the core issue, of who was the first ass… My vote, Lindsey Stone.

Re: “BTW – Whether someone agrees with me in whole or in part, I’ve never considered that as having them fight my battles for me…” It sounded as though you were castigating someone for picking up my spear. Perhaps the error was mine.

Finally – the answer to your (and others’) questions about acronyms:

REMF – Rear-echelon mother-f***er
DILLIGAF – Does It Look Like I Give a F***

I have a fourth choice, but it’s completely personal – Remagen. My father was in one of the first troop units to cross. When I was stationed in Hanau (near Frankfurt am Main), I decided to make the trip up there to see first hand what my father’s stories were about.

After a day of checking out both sides of the former bridge site, I returned to the gastatte where I was staying. In the stube, an older gentleman was drinking a beer. After introductions, he asked me what brought me there.

I explained the situation about my father, to which he replied, “So your father was one of the first? Well, I was one of the last, and it might be that I shot at your father. All I can do is apologize to him for shooting, and as for you, all I can do is get you drunk…”

Some quick estimation of this man’s age made me think he was one of the mid-to late-teens left behind to defend the bridge in the German retrograde.

you and JAG had no problems in escalating the battle to one of argumentum ad hominem, and objectively, I might say,

—————————————————–

REALL????

Do YOU NOT recall writing the comment below???? and may I point out, This was the FIRST comment you made…. and, as you can SEE, you addressed ME, PERSONALLY… I do NOT in ANY WAY see you arguing the topic….
YOU attacked my character…… You went to my profile, rather than addressing my comments…..

“@JAG – If I saw your gravatar profile correctly, you’re “into fashion” and living in Sweden? Seems that something so fleeting as fashion would be indicative of a belief in conspicuous consumption and elitism. Beginning to think you don’t really don’t have much of a dog in this fight, deflecting the primary issue to one of consumerism.”

YOU are the ONLY ONE who addressed me in this fashion….
If you thought that I would be sitting here too busy reading my Vogue Magazine to come here and defend myself…. YOU were sorely mistaken….

NOW…. If you wish to actually debate or argue a topic, then I suggest you
cease with addressing me as if I am superficial, elitist dumb twit….
Make NO mistake…. I will NOT sit idly by while you try to paint me out as something I am clearly NOT…. I will come, defend myself, and hand your ass to you…..

YOU try to paint me out as some dumb girl who is only interested in fashion, rather than reply to the many comments I made on this topic…. and YOU call me SEXIST????

That is RICH!!!!

and in case you do not understand what that phrase means…. (being you failed to understand that Hand your ass to you, is FIGURATIVE)
It means that your comment was ironic…. a slang for … That is FUNNY….

I remember when I was a hospital voluntereer, a ‘candystriper”. We were told the only reason we could be fired was for “internitis”, having a crush on or acting foolishly around the interns (as teenagers are sometimes wont to do when they see someone really cute.)
Who decided what behavior constituted this disorder?
Anyone who observed a behavior that he/she/ or an intern him/herself thought was ‘googly eyed” and reported it.
As already said was a private company, she behaved in a way her employer felt was not appropriate.
Head of the company, head of the volunteers office, their definitions, their determination.

“I707 – Re: Ex-pat? Just needling. I know by your previous comments your there for personal reasons, and not anti-US, maybe anti-devolved American society. I respect your opinions more than most as you are a dues payer. While you might have been drafted, you went willingly. Put it on the line for any eventuality.
/////don’t know what “anti-devolved etc” means but let it ride. Facing a certain draft in the late 50’s I took the ROTC route to a cushier and order giving position, and became willingly a total tin soldier embracing all the ideals.

In my personal e-mails, I have a tag-line which reads: A veteran – whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve – is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to “The United States of America,” for an amount of “up to and including my life.” That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it. — Author Unknown

I still stand by this, not for myself, but out of respect to the men and women who were willing to do so voluntarily, or did when ordered to do so.

////Well many don’t know but we faced many crises in that period ’60-62. The Soviets blocked ground supply to Berlin again. Our response was not obvious, we had the nuke option. We were prolonged on indefinite service then. Then came Cuba, missiles aimed at us, and Kruschev making noise—-who would blink. Then my former roommate was shipped with his Sig Bn to Nam, guarded by Vietnamese against Charlie, sitting on a hill top with flyswatter antennas. (I also learned to tune one up, klystrons are tricky). It all wasn’t scary, but hairy.

While I’d rather you see for yourself, I’ll tell you I was an intel analyst and CI special agent from the late 70s to the late 80s. The details are on my page. Nothing high-speed/low drag, but interesting enough to say the least
//// Where’s your page? I figured that you didn’t say, because you couldn’t. I wasn’t CI, but field test of classified surveillance including nuclear surveillance gear. One was a doppler radar for picking out small arms armed soldiers in desert terrain. Cool.

Re: My boot + her ass. 66.6% figurative-33.3% literal. For “a swift kick in the ass comment,” you and JAG had no problems in escalating the battle to one of argumentum ad hominem, and objectively, I might say, “So, who are the asses now,” but I won’t. Maybe the three of us have gone about the ass-route gloriously, so I’ll extend an olive branch at this time, to get back to the core issue, of who was the first ass… My vote, Lindsey Stone.

Re: “BTW – Whether someone agrees with me in whole or in part, I’ve never considered that as having them fight my battles for me…” It sounded as though you were castigating someone for picking up my spear. Perhaps the error was mine.

////When the regulars who hate my guts hop in and support my opponents with reasons they would never take into their mouths, then it will be pointed at them. First OS and then Messpo. A couple of others will drop around soon, except for the fact that we have peace now. Which is nice.

Finally – the answer to your (and others’) questions about acronyms:

REMF – Rear-echelon mother-f***er
DILLIGAF – Does It Look Like I Give a F***

I’ll let you get back to your evening’s activities.

Respectfully submitted,

Bob

Thanks for seeing and being man enough to grasp the olive branch. Kudos to you for that. So few can here. My brother spent 2 years in Hanau in the same Sig Bn as my buddy went to Nam in, the 322nd during the Korean War. So we have links there. He never mentioned Hanau, probably forbidden, but did ofter refer to Frankfurt am Main. Respectfully back at you

Gosh, you go away for a few hours and all hell breaks loose. Great, I say. Often too much seems calculated hereabouts.

Can’t say I’m anymore impressed with how JunctionShamus comports himself. Maybe because I’ve just spent big bucks getting surgery, implants and a new bridge across the front of my mouth, but knocking out teeth in a fit of pique doesn’t impress me overly.

Which is not to say that anyone asking me about my service would be impressed either. Not that I care, because I think that military violence is, in a word, about as stupid and insane as it get’s on this planet.

Having said that, a part of me respects draftees service perhaps more that enlistees because, well, they never asked for it, but gave none the less. Better or worse depending. Same goes for our vaunted volunteer (and all the variations thereof) warriors.

You know, I haven’t been impressed by one’s representation of military service (as opposed to saying it’s just ‘part of life’) since, in college, during Viet era, when one particular animal-like co-student uttered the immortal phrase describing his thirst for battle: “I just want to get over there and kill gooks”.

Neither do I disparage individual military service, their being no way to judge it’s weight except for the few celebrated ones. But I sure don’t glorify it because in many, if not most instances, the “glory” that got folks buried in Arlington has been based on the gross stupidity, cupidity, and callous ignorance of what it means to be human. How the hell am I supposed to know which of those poor buried souls was really exceptional. We are honoring our own sense of guilt, perhaps, almost as an excuse for the failure to find a better way than war. En masses, it is a tribute to our side is more right than yours. Individually it is a crap shoot. Like most representations of emotion, Arlinglton says much more about us than them IMVHO .

I’d like to think we can do better but, to this day and counting, it doesn’t look that way. There is no “our side” and “their side” in the bigger picture. Just groveling around in the basement of human possibilities.

I707 – Sorry for bad assumption – it used to be you could click on “junctionshamus” and it would link to my site. No longer, so be it. If the Gods permit, the site is http://www.wallinvestigations.com. And yes in real life, I do look like Peter Sellers’… butt.

“Anti-devolved” – just meaning what we’ve “devolved” to as a country. Almost an equal amount of takers as there are givers, trending downwards, Kennedy’s “Ask not…” in Superman’s Bizarro World. A friend pointed out seven states where the benefits received from the government exceed the amount given in Federal revenue.

But, at the end of the day, almost all of us go home.

If our antagonists don’t show up, I guess I’ll just have to call you a “Doo-doo-caca-pee-pee head” and we’ll see what happens.

@DonS – I’m not prone to violence myself – the incident I referred to wasn’t a fit of pique, but an act of self defense. The individual said they were going to hand my ass to me, then initiated the physical part of the assault. I was lucky, and I’d rather be lucky than good, as the old saw goes.

Back to you, I707 – It’s late in your part of the world, so sleep well.

Perhaps it’s the location of the transgression, seemingly more important than the transgression itself? Were it not at that location, would it have even mattered? Perhaps an individual with a bullhorn shouting in the direction of, and flipping off a “Hospital Zone” sign might have had a different result on this thread? A polling question: Which would you find more offensive, if at all, this situation or the hospital zone situation?

Symbols have unspoken power. It is part of the reason I find propaganda and branding such interesting subjects. It’s also why I find passing along how such things work to be important. It’s like showing how a magic trick works; you may still appreciate the trick once you know how it is done, but its power – its mystery – no longer holds with the same sway as before.

***************

Don’t get me wrong, mespo. I’m all for passion, but I still maintain reason is the light that leads through what can otherwise be a very destructive storm of emotion. To use an example of your ancestral countrymen, it took passion to envision Rome, but reason to build it and when it fell, it fell to a variety of uncontrolled emotions as much as it did to the actions of the Visigoths, Vandals, Suebi and Alans. From general malaise to individual avarice and ego worship, the vision could not be maintained once reason was lost. And the day Marcus Aurelius died could fairly be described as the day reason died in the body politic of Rome. In many ways, the parallels to modern America are striking.

“We are honoring our own sense of guilt, perhaps, almost as an excuse for the failure to find a better way than war.”

****************************

Armchair amateur psychoanalysis. A bunch of that famous barnyard product. It is a CEMETERY for chrissakes. If a person acts like a refugee from the fourth grade in any cemetery, they should expect to be treated like an immature twit.

When we came across the photo yesterday of Lindsey Stone raising her middle finger at the Arlington National Cemetery, we decided to pass on making comment or adding to the viral storm around it. Gawker’s refreshingly reasonable question was, should the woman in the picture, Lindsey Stone, have her life ruined over the photo?

We figured she had enough on her plate without us adding to it.

When my reporter Geoff and I, both military veterans, closed the page, we rolled our eyes and got on with the day.

But as outrage grows — leading to posts across the Internet and Facebook groups devoted to getting her fired — I feel compelled to defend her.

Stone was at the cemetery on an office trip. She’s pretending to be neither silent or respectful next to a sign that demands she be both. As in, “Look it says I can’t. But I am.” I get it. I remember standing on the wall of a deep gorge in high school that had the words Do Not Stand here painted on it. I took a picture of my shoe beside them. These are silly, immature, little rebellions.

Stone also apologizes in a followup Facebook post: “Whoa whoa whoa… wait. This is just us, being the douchebags that we are, challenging authority in general. Much like the pic posted the night before, of me smoking right next to a no smoking sign. OBVIOUSLY we meant NO disrespect to people that serve or have served our country.”

More importantly, if Lindsey Stone wants to rip on the Tomb of the Unknowns, me, my service, or the hundreds of mutilated troops I served with at Walter Reed Medical Center, she should be able to do so without fear of retribution. Freedom like that is what we fought for, and respecting other opinions is part of what the military tried to teach all of us who served.

The blind adoration of the military and its personnel is getting creepy, and I’m talking from the inside looking out. While correcting the ugly way Vietnam veterans were treated is good, the over-compensation needs to stop. Putting on a uniform doesn’t change who you are, and questioning institutions and individuals, including the military and its troops, is good and healthy.

Aaron O’Connel, a Marine officer and instructor at the Naval Academy, had this to say about the topic in a NYT op-ed a couple weeks ago that definitely warrants a full reading:

Like all institutions, the military works to enhance its public image, but this is just one element of militarization. Most of the political discourse on military matters comes from civilians, who are more vocal about “supporting our troops” than the troops themselves. It doesn’t help that there are fewer veterans in Congress today than at any previous point since World War II. Those who have served are less likely to offer unvarnished praise for the military, for it, like all institutions, has its own frustrations and failings. But for non-veterans — including about four-fifths of all members of Congress — there is only unequivocal, unhesitating adulation. The political costs of anything else are just too high. …

Uncritical support of all things martial is quickly becoming the new normal for our youth. Hardly any of my students at the Naval Academy remember a time when their nation wasn’t at war. Almost all think it ordinary to hear of drone strikes in Yemen or Taliban attacks in Afghanistan. The recent revelation of counterterrorism bases in Africa elicits no surprise in them, nor do the military ceremonies that are now regular features at sporting events. That which is left unexamined eventually becomes invisible, and as a result, few Americans today are giving sufficient consideration to the full range of violent activities the government undertakes in their names.

Stone has genuinely apologized, and so has her father. Her employer also publicly responded, distancing itself from the situation. Maybe a little gracious dignity is in order and the lady should be taken at her word.

If anyone thinks that’s asking too much, check out the comments on the Fire Lindsey Stone Facebook page to see that just maybe this “Uncritical support of all things martial” has gone far enough.

Although the outcry against Stone was in part based on “[u]ncritical support of all things martial” – a trend which has indeed gone too far in this country, the reason for her firing was drawing negative publicity to her employer while on a company sponsored trip. What she did to draw that negative attention is secondary to the drawing of the negative attention itself. Genuine apology or not, if she were my employee, she’d have gotten fired too.

Thanks AY and OS youre spot on.
She says “This is just us, being the douchebags that we are, challenging authority in general. Much like the pic posted the night before, of me smoking right next to a no smoking sign.” This is the behavior of a teenager, not an adult. She has a lot to learn about how to behave in public/when representing her company.

Reason has its place on the throne of human endeavor now as in ancient Rome, but I suspect it was not mere reason that motivated the Romans to rebuild their navy not once but three times to take on the Carthaginians. And it’s hard to imagine cool contemplation caused Cato the Elder to end most every Senate speech regardless of topic with the admonition — Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.” (Moreover, I advise that Carthage must be destroyed …).

Lots more passion than aposiopesis going on there. And Carthage was ultimately destroyed.

Reason and passion need not be divorced. Sometimes their ends are conjoined by happenstance. Such I think is the case with Carthage. They were not only the only major power in the region capable of standing up to Rome, they dominated the Mediterranean – a considerable thorn in the side of Roman military ambition in North Africa as it was much easier to move troops over sea than to march them around. On land, Carthage often had to rely on mercenary forces to bolster their ranks, but they truly had the Med wrapped up in no small part due to their superior ship design. Even Carthage took advantage of that in Hannibal’s campaign against Rome when he flanked them via Spain and came over the Alps. This doesn’t even mention the economic inconvenience to Rome of having their Mediterranean trade dampened by Carthaginian dominance of the sea lanes. Even as a purely rational decision, to attack Carthage made strategic sense from the Roman expansionist perspective.

I think it is not when reason and emotion coincide that presents the most problem for our species.

It is when emotion steers away from reasons goals and into the mist of the irrational.

Agreed. I find it fascinating that the Romans outfitted an entire navy using a shipwrecked Carthaginian quinquereme that was reverse engineered. Then with little to no training except as provided by the Greek socii subdued the greatest navy in the world in less than 20 years.

When this story hit Huffington Post, I found that many Veterans were
defending Lindsay Stone….

I wonder if, the name Arlington Natl. on the sign was blurred out… if people would have even KNOWN where this photo was taken????
my guess, is most likely NOT….

There are no graves in the photo… so, the way I see it, she is not flipping off dead soldiers…. So, how can one be mocking the dead if you are unable to see the actual graves….

You can NOT see the Tomb Of The Unknown….. so, the way I see it, she is not flipping off the Unknown…..

So… this line in the article is the one I disagree with….
“More importantly, if Lindsey Stone wants to rip on the Tomb of the Unknowns, me, my service, ”

Fact is….. had this sign been ANYWHERE else, she would have made the same joke…. This is where intent comes in…..

Had she shown flipping off the Tomb of the Unknown… or showing the rows of graves… then I could understand a BIT of the outrage….

BUT, being that she would have interacted with this wording on ANY sign, anywhere, we can not say that she was taking a stand against the military….

many people complain that we as a society have become too Politically Correct…. and yet, they were OUTRAGED over her Political IN-Correct photo….

lastly…. I would have FAR MORE respect if these same people were this outraged over Bills to fund Veterans Services properly, fail to get the votes….. that to me is OUTRAGEOUS…

We will always FIND the money to start the wars…..
BUT, when we are the asked to take care of those who fought for us…. Suddenly, we are unable to find any money… hell… we even refuse to raise taxes so that we can take care of our Military…..
That to me, is OUTRAGEOUS…..

WE had a President that sent our troops to war, without proper safety equipment….. without proper bulletproof vests…. without proper protection of the vehicles…. and YET, we did NOT fire this president…. NOPE… we REELECTED him…..

We have Military families who are on Food stamps…. That to me is OUTRAGEOUS…..

WE pay military contractors Billions…. and then our enlisted men are paid FAR less than the civilian contractors….. That to me is OUTRAGEOUS…..

So many Americans will click “LIKE” on a page to ruin a woman’s life over a photo…. stick yellow ribbon stickers on their cars to show their support of our military….
These things, in my opinion are Superficial Patriotism….

Where is the REAL Support of our Military????
When will we PROPERLY take care of these men and women who are willing to fight and die for our country?????

When people come from supper they are filled with……
I was sleeping peacefully.

Junction, gotta go get my cataracts checked. Catch you later.

Like I said, they would and did pop up.
Sat themselves in a circlejerk and screamed: “Better your ass than ours, and it sure won’t be outs.” High class reasoners. Actually it is their morals which are rotten. Gene the logician, who uses a pure tool for impure purposes. OS, the psychotherapist who uses his skills in a similar fashion: He’s the doc who goes around the pary, saying at random “You look sick to me. And that’s a professional opinion”.
And Messpooo, who is a patriot, 9/11 trashed, who can’t see anything wrong with droning kids on a hillside herding goats. The figure from yesterday is 178 children to date, from babies to 14 year olds. “They should not be in a combat zone”, he says.
Since when did Pakistan become internationally declared a combat zone.

As for Cassblanca, never saw the flick, so the clip doesn’t bite me. So bite me Mark Esposito.

As for hero-worshp, forget it, ANC or elsewhere. It is fatal to the living.

Not many service men here JS. Not that we feel special for that.
But when someone tells his persomal story, we tend to believe him. …But not otherwise on other subjects. It is the same with this dog pack. They talk a lot only.

On the patriotism/heroism note vs the appropriate behavior aspect of this thread:

There is a big difference between “Hate the war, not the warrior and “Hate the war, love the warrior” One witholds individual judgment, based on intelligent reason. The other attributes individual, rote, judgment based on blind conformity. And many parallels therefrom.

More amateur psychology? Tough cookies I say. Better to be a recognized amateur (with the degrees and service to prove it) than a professional pedant.

“I wonder if, the name Arlington Natl. on the sign was blurred out… if people would have even KNOWN where this photo was taken????
my guess, is most likely NOT….”

*************************

Isn’t the fact that she made sure to publicize this shameless act with a specific reference to Arlington National Cemetery IN THE PHOTO precisely the basis for the objection? Most anywhere else she’d just be another employed moron.

I think Jim Croce had it right:

You don’t tug on superman’s cape
You don’t spit into the wind
You don’t pull the mask off an ole lone ranger
And you don’t mess around with [Arlington National Cemetery]

GeneH,
Such nobel souning words on Roma’s fate. You rite purty.
Assume you have read lots.
So if Marcus Aurelius was the key figure there, then whose death here was the key event? Or do you maan we are still waiting. Enlighten please.

Our dear regular Otteray Scribe, educated and experienced practictioner has done it again, as has been previously mentioned by me several times.

He has called someone a four year old, although he knows otherwise nothing about them. This is not professional, nor even worthy of being expressed here. It appears to be choler instead of reason.

Times change, society changes, norms and behaviours change.
But OS has not noticed. He expects that all will conform to his norms.
Well ,reactionary wishes are not usually granted. Tell that to the churches who want to institute a Christian nation.

We should pursue our defense of constitutional freedoms, protect Stone’s behavious or “speech” as it was expressed. AND protect ALL persons’ right to express without fear of physical attack, unlawful reprisal, offcial harassment, or the chill of drone attacks, execution without due process. etc.

Now, OS may say therefore what he will, but his comportment is as a four year old’s, not as an adult psychiatrist, whose mantle he displays so prominently and dishonors so clearly.

More importantly, if Lindsey Stone wants to rip on the Tomb of the Unknowns, me, my service, or the hundreds of mutilated troops I served with at Walter Reed Medical Center, she should be able to do so without fear of retribution. Freedom like that is what we fought for, and respecting other opinions is part of what the military tried to teach all of us who served.”
——————-

Her actions as free speech, has been fought for and is protected.
It is in the spirit that will hopefully will lead to demands for correcting the problems we come each day to bemoan. Self-evident. We need more protesters, not fewer. That is the essence, nothing else.

The whole budget for the war machine should be transfered to development of alternative energy. The 21st Century demands better options.
My opinion is that the wars we ‘fight’ now are no longer nobel, they create more wars, create massive destruction of resources that are becoming scarce while there is more demand for them and any danger can be better addressed by international police work rather than hardware.
jmho.
As Don S said, our inability to find better solutions is shameful.

Well, now gone through the pile.
Conclusions?
OS is senile.
DonS is fully functioning.
GeneH comes to complain of divergence from thread purpose; and spends his time in a long session of mutual masturbation with Mespoooo on Rome and Carthage—–totally irrelevant to the subject. of the thread.

Look to the past to avoid the same future (I said that) is a good motto, but drinking the same poison as Rick and Cato and Socrates is dumb. We are in our time facing our threats. And our threateners are corporations, war bleeding us, fascists and conformity—-plus a MIC that controls the nation.

The rest gave more than expected.

A sacred right to speech must be respected, always. The highest precedence above all. If the protest is disturbing the peace of the cemetery, then ring for an officer to correct the problem. Do not cause a disturbance yourself. The employer should have said: “What my employees do in their private life is theirs to be responsible for.”
The men/women here died for the rights you are obliged as a citizen to protect. So should it be.

Read your background presentation. I was at Ft Huachuca in ’60-62 with of course time at Ft Monmouth. Was the Electronic Proving Grounds still there when you were there? (USAEPG)

Impressive resumé.

Have you read Ishmael Jone’s book: “Human Factor”. He was a long serving undercover officer for CIA. CIA hated what he wrote and refused to approve it, only censor it all was there answer.

He says the milint was better in the field than the CIA. His solution to the CIA was, briefly put: give the Operations part to milint, but forgot what he suggested with the analysis half. Detailed list of suggestions in an appendix.
He had also been at Huachuca which he emailed me. His contact is in the book.

I read back over this thread. I don’t think anyone here has advocated for this silly woman not being able to do what she wanted. Even the spokesman for the Old Guard did not say that, he just said something to the effect that what she did was not even worth commenting on.

On the other hand, businesses must be sensitive to what their employees say and do. Papa John was completely within his legal right to say something totally stupid, and the effect has been loss of business. Radio stations carrying Rush Limbaugh are bleeding sponsors in droves after his offensive tirade insulting Sandra Fluke and virtually all women of child bearing age. As I said before, any employer who had several thousand emails protesting a stupid employee, will cut his or her losses and get rid of the employee. Free speech is not censored by the legal system, but when you represent a business interest, it is better to be civil and circumspect.

As I said, in the world of business, running your mouth unchecked can have serious economic consequences. To wit:

Papa John’s, Applebee’s, and Denny’s were measured with YouGov BrandIndex’s Buzz score, which asks respondents, “If you’ve heard anything about the brand in the last two weeks, through advertising, news or word of mouth, was it positive or negative?” Results were filtered adults 18+ who have eaten at casual dining restaurants in the past month.

Papa John’s Buzz score high point for the month came on Election Day—November 6th—with a score of 32. Eight days later, the score had dropped 10 points down to 22, when the spam text lawsuit was unveiled. A few days later, Papa John’s dropped below Pizza Hut’s score and is presently at 4.

Spot on. I recently saw an unscientific survey on Slashdot that asked what computer technology would you like to “uninvent”. The overwhelming choice was social media. This confirms what my brief flirtation with social media taught me as well. It’s one giant boondoggle waiting to happen.

My daughter uses Facebook, as do several of the other officers in her department. They use Facebook to stay in contact as they work different shifts. She came home last night and had to unfriend and block three or four of her former high school classmates. They have been arrested, and she cannot have them showing up on her Facebook page. She hated to do it, but she is a professional.

@I707 – Yes, EPG was there when I was, a different set of folks from the school, and not much interaction as we were just passing through. Wondered if you had been there for just that reason. The HUMINT program was transferred from Ft. Holabird in Baltimore several years before I arrived. The elders in the field liked it better, as it was a more realistic (urban) training ground than Ft. “We gotcha”. You can send an e-mail through my site if you’d like, don’t want to take up others’ time listening to us reminisce.

Is OS unprofessional using his professional pondus as a psychiatrist to claim that someone is acting like a four year old? I think so. Is that uncivil? How so?

Is your fine mind and logic competence being used for base purposes and in support of your love for kicking ass (you actually appear to think that is tough guy to do so—-weird!), using ad hominems, etc of the basest sort.
I think it is. Is that uncivil to say so. How so.

I think my words are not uncivil, but are spot on descriptions. You may disagree, but don’t say uncivil. Pot kettle.

“Therefore, the question is: Based solely on the reference to Arlington National Cemetery, why is the objection justified?”

********************

This seems self-evident to me. If she refuses to accord respect to persons who died to protect you and your way of life one wonders what she would respect. That it involves Arlington National Cemetery is precisely the point. I doubt we’d even have a debate if the picture originated at the State Department or the Pentagon though an argument could be made for those two institutions as well.

I suppose what is relentlessly galling to many of us is just how insensitive this young woman is to the suffering or others — be they interred there or be they the families of those interred there. Maybe it’s the sheer ingratitude of it all and the breakneck speed employed to brag about the stunt publicly thus garnering the laughing approval of like-minded “friends.” She had to know that the Facebook photo would provoke a response. And, boy, she got one.

I don’t think the First Amendment requires us common folk to suffer ingrates passively or fools gladly. The government — maybe? But those of us who still accept the notions of fitting honors and earned respect — not so much.

You’re free to say what you like, but you are also free to suffer the consequences. There are few rules around here. If you don’t like that or the fact I’m willing to make a case for banning you for perpetually violating one of them?

Learn to control yourself.

As for you opinion of me? To quote junctionshamus, DILLIGAF? Neither I nor anyone of any import to me cares what some anonymous Internet troll thinks of me. But I do care about your repeated violation of the rules here. You haven’t learned the lesson of futility. That’s fine. There are other options to exercise should you persist.

The choice is yours.

Any action I take in response is going to be entirely premised on yours.

We twice have had threads on civility here. They were the Professor’s blogs. Everybody got so angry airing old hurts from others here that the Professor had to phone in comments encouraging us to calm down and be civil to each other in the current discussion, not once but twice.
The last time from the swimming pool.
The disciussion the next day/thread was somewhat calmer.
Summarum: Lots of bad feelings here, over civility.

Feel responsible.? Stupid question. You are blind to your faults or negative contributions.

You call me crazy. Is that also civil? What a laugh you are.

I characterize people by pointing out defects in their words or reasoning which their words support. That is not uncivil. That is factual criticism based on my judgement of reality.

You called me by a DSM term “passive-aggressive”. Is this the kind of blog the professor wishes to be known by? Where members of GB status label others with DSM diagnoses?

So give me the rule and examples and we can discuss them. But you are too lazy to do that. And fearful of being exposed with no proof to show.

You are a bully GeneH. And that is not uncivil. That is a description which I think there is good proof to be found in your writings.

The point is GeneH, is that there is no rule, defined and enforceable. The Professor has the right to ban anyone he wants. But his open attempt to increase civility was a fiasco, the first time. I wish him luck because I much prefer civility to the way you and your pack have twisted this blog to be.

Without civility it is difficult to discuss. Shamus and I achieved it in spite of conflict .
Shano and I did too, in spite of earlier falling outs.
But some are your running dogs and look to you on whom to attack. (Good ol’ Mao)

I said the turkey buzzards would come soon, and they did. Shamus promised to use his bird call if necessary, but it wasn’t.

Explain it to me, that would be a correct warning between fellow members.
For we are fellow members. You have expressly said that you as GB have no more prerogatives other than as current blogger to answer for good order in the blog. Which only you seem interested in bothering with.

Other GBs may disagree with me on much or little. But they don’t come bearing threats of banning on the basis of incivility. How asinine.

Of course you can make a case against me. But in reality it would be a false case. I do not attack as I was want to do in the beginning out of fear. But I am defiant of the members of the gang who persist in doing your bidding.
To others I bend over backwards to avoid problems.

But anybody can make a case by clever citation excised out of context, where context stretches often over several exchanges of comments and is not limited to one sentence or two words. The media does it all the time.

So cough up the rule that you say that I have violated and we can discuss it.

What shano said about transferring the war budget to the alternative energy research.
Mespo,
This lady should walk in a procession at Arlington and see the families and then think a second time about her stupid picture.

Which is a comment made directly to you, id707, and reads in relevant part:

“To recap, the rules here are (to the best of my knowledge and as they were explained to me):

Rule #1 – JT makes the rules.

Rule #2 – Should you have a question about the rules, see Rule #1.

Rule #3 – Posters may post anonymously and their identities (should they be or become known to the host, guest bloggers or third party posters) will not be revealed here by the host or the guest bloggers under any circumstances. Should a poster’s real identity be discovered and publicly revealed here (without permission of the party identified) by a third party poster or guest blogger, such revelations will result in said third party or guest blogger being banned (possibly permanently).

Rule #4 – Hijacking another user’s identity – real or pseudonymous – will result in the hijacker being banned (possibly permanently).

Rule #5 – Civility is highly encouraged.

Those are the only hard and fast rules here that I know of other than the four words that trigger automatic moderation (*sshole, f*ck, b*tch and b*stard).”
_________________

In short, you cannot plead ignorance as a defense even if it were a permissible defense (and it isn’t).

You are now doubly informed of the rules around here, id707.

Do you know how Aikido works? It’s all redirection of your opponent’s energy. The harder they attack, the worse they get hurt.

That is how this will work.

We try to allow as much latitude around here as possible. Only a few people have ever been banned from here. You, however, are simply pushing your luck. The more you try to simply start brawls simply for the sake of brawling, the worse this is going to work out for you. Agreement is not required around here. Debate and argument are encouraged as well as discussion. Going around trying to poke someone in the eye just to start trouble? Not so much.

Threat? Warning? I don’t care how you perceive it. What it is is an accurate description of what will happen if you don’t get your act together.

“I don’t think the First Amendment requires us common folk to suffer ingrates passively or fools gladly. The government — maybe? But those of us who still accept the notions of fitting honors and earned respect — not so much.” (mespo)

Here’s a story I got from a friend of mine in PA. It’s about one of America’s heroes who is now interred at the cemetery where Lindsey Stone DID NOT insult the fallen dead by giving a gesture to “f–k off” and yelling at the top of her lungs:

Army Pfc Ross McGinnis, an amateur mechanic from Knox, Pa, was attached to Co. C, 1st Battalion, 26th Infantry regiment stationed in Baghdad, Iraq. On Dec, 4, 2006, Ross was manning the M2 .50 caliber machine gun at the gunner’s hatch on a humvee with four other soldiers on board. An insurgent threw a grenade through the hatch from a window above the street. The explosive flew past McGinnis and into the cramped passenger compartment. Sgt. Cedric Thomas commanding the humvee picks up the story:

“Pfc. McGinnis yelled ‘Grenade! … It’s in the truck,’” Thomas said. “I looked out of the corner of my eye as I was crouching down and I saw him pin it down.” McGinnis did so even though he could have escaped. “He had time to jump out of the truck,” Thomas said. “He chose not to.”

In a selfless act of bravery, McGinnis pinned the grenade against his back and the radio mount. He was killed instantly but his fellow soldiers survived with only minor injuries. The Congressional Medal of Honor has been awarded posthumously to Spec. Ross Andrew McGinnis and accepted by his father, Tom, a clerk at an auto parts store near Pittsburgh.

Ross’ grave is located in section 60, site 8544 at ANC — or about 150 yards from where Ms. Stone had her picture taken. She was, in my estimation, too close.

It does all seem rather sad. Getting wrapped up in the legal ‘who shot john’s’ and legal niceties. Perhaps we see that something potentially vital has be sacrificed for the vaunted ‘law and order’. Perhaps it’s too much to ask of a blog aimed at lawyers — to go with the heart at times rather than the code. We are at other times quite selectively cavalier, at least some of us, in dismissing the calcified legal texts as out of step with our instincts that exceed the specific case.

I don;t think it has to do with conformity, as so many of us have said, it has to do with maturity and the fact that she was representing her company,
I have not looked at the pic in a while but did when this page opened. I agree with those here who say anywhere else, absent say a hospital zone, there would probably not be a brouhaha. It is a matter of respect as well. Take it out of context and the responses I am sure would be different.

“I don;t think it has to do with conformity, as so many of us have said, it has to do with maturity and the fact that she was representing her company”.

Spot on, leejcaroll. The relevant fact to her being fired was she was on the company dime and she drew negative attention to her company. Regardless of the specific facts leading up to that, the results remain the same: her firing was legal, rational and justified. That it was her immaturity that led to this end is immaterial. She could have just as easily done something else that had the same net effect for her company and gotten the same result. That’s the disconnect. She’s not being punished/fired for what she said. She was fired for publicly embarrassing her employer on a business trip they paid for.

Let’s say I went to Holland on a business trip for Honeywell. I decide to get reaaaaaalllllyy high and hire a bunch of hookers. Say I decide that me and my perfectly legal escorts and my bong are going to go have sex in my hotel and I’m going to post pictures of it on FB with captions saying “My last business trip to Amsterdam! Thanks, Honeywell!” Or even if I don’t go that explicit in the caption and leave Honeywell out of it but on my FB page it does mention I work for Honeywell.

I’d expect to be fired before my plane landed. Possibly before it took off. Why? Bong hits and hookers are legal in Amsterdam. I had broken no laws. But I did embarrass the Hell out of my company while on their dime.

I’ve worked at Fortune 100 companies, medium sized companies and small companies and in every one of those situations I would expect to be fired for making the kind of public faux pas Stone did let alone my more extreme example. If she had been on a vacation she paid for herself? A totally different story. The bottom line is she wasn’t. She was in town as a representative for her company. That comes with some responsibilities. Stone either ignored that fact or didn’t know that and she paid the price for her stupid fun.

This is what she was doing for a living… Taking care of mentally challenged
adults….. That is a job, NOT many people would do…. and she was WELL LIKED by the families of the people she cared for as well as the people she cared for …….

from ABC News forum…..

Lindsey Stone has been the social worker and caretaker of my 30 year old son, who has special needs. Over the past few years, she has been an excellent employee of LIFE (Living Independently ForEver), a residential program in Cape Cod for young adults with complex learning disabilities.My wife and I know her very well.In, fact I would recommend her most highly for any pursuit to which she endeavors.At the moment the notorious photo was taken, Lindsey was chaperoning 40 special needs young adults on a once-in-a-lifetime visit to DC. As a father to one of those kids, I regularly joke and entertain my son with silly manoeuvres.I don’t care that I am a 67 year old surgeon- my only desire is to bring joy to my dear son. I am his guardian and protector.Believe me, occasionally, I appear stupid to the uninformed.That is where Lindsey was. Her press crucifiction in an unwarranted attack foisted on her by folks who know nothing of the context.Dr. and Mrs. Michael Zide Fort Worth, TX

“Her press crucifiction in an unwarranted attack foisted on her by folks who know nothing of the context.” Dr. and Mrs. Michael Zide Fort Worth, TX
-posted by justagurlinseattle

“Kudos” to the Zides and thanks for posting it, justagurlinseattle.

The following comes to mind:

“Resolve to be tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving, and tolerant with the weak and the wrong. Sometime in your life you will have been all of these.”
-Dr. Robert H. Goddard quotes (American rocket engineer 1882-1945)

IMHO, the situation might have been handled creatively by Lindsey’s employer — it needn’t have ended with the termination of her employment. Maybe the opinions of the residents should have been considered. Was she kind and good to them? Did she make a positive difference in their lives? There was a teachable moment in this incident — a teachable moment that was squandered, IMO. What a shame.

Someone mentioned earlier there are some undesirables buried at Arlington. I’m not going there but there is a place where dishonored military members are buried having been executed by courts martial during the second world war. It is located at Oise-Aisne American Cemetery Plot E in France.

In 2009 I was reading through Wikipedia and found the cemetery. I read how those dishonored soldiers were buried in graves without having the human dignity of their names on the headstone, only a number denoting the grave location. I strenuously objected to this, no matter their crime, they had a right to their names being remembered and to not be cast into oblivion. Admittedly I was motivated by my own religious beliefs on the rights of the departed.

I then filed a freedom of information request with the federal government for the names and site location of these men. After I received their names I made a wikipedia article listing their names for everyone to see and remember. The deserved that at least.

“Believe me, occasionally, I appear stupid to the uninformed.That is where Lindsey was.Her press crucifiction in an unwarranted attack foisted on her by folks who know nothing of the context.”

~Dr. and Mrs. Michael Zide Fort Worth, TX”

**********************

Believe me my good dentist et ux, I know exactly what the “context” was. It was, after all, in a national cemetery. And calling it an “unwarranted attack” is certainly debatable. That might equally be applied to Ms. Stone’s actions at the cemetery where she was offered admission as a guest.

As for her laudable efforts in caring for your disabled child in Massachusetts, I can only remind you that Mussolini made the trains run on time so we can surmise that one need not be a fool in every aspect of their lives to still be considered a fool. And finally, I want you to know that I have absolutely no problem believing that occasionally even you can appear “stupid and uninformed.”

In your zeal to defend this undefendable act, you’ve proven that in abundance.

“This is what she was doing for a living… Taking care of mentally challenged
adults….. That is a job, NOT many people would do…. and she was WELL LIKED by the families of the people she cared for as well as the people she cared for …….”

**********************

I refer you to Bogey in the Casablanca clip above: “For a price, Ugarte … for a price.” She’s no volunteer.

Was she actually “yelling” or just pretending to yell. Do we know? And if she was “yelling”, do we know that she was “yeling at the top of her lungs?”

—————————————–

Anonymously….
That is just it… she was PRETENDING to yell… just making the motion to look like she is yelling……

also, you can see in the photo, she is bent down, as to NOT draw attention to herself…..
she did NOT disturb ANYONE while she was taking the photo…..
If it had been this HORRIBLE and disruptive act at the time of the photo, somebody would have come forward by now to make their complaints…

I get that many are upset because of the CLOSE Proximity to the graves and the Tomb of the Unknown….. BUT, being close to, is still NOT pointing at….
HOWEVER…. If she had blurred out the name, Arlington Natl. in the photo… NOBODY would have even known where the photo was taken…..

People claiming that she is mocking the dead are SEEING what is NOT there…..
I just wonder HOW she can be seen as mocking the dead, when you can NOT SEE any Graves or the Tomb in the photo????

she is being treated as if she was dancing on the actual Graves… as if she was pointing at the Tomb of the Unknown and being malicious….
I just see it as an overreaction…..

“she is being treated as if she was dancing on the actual Graves… as if she was pointing at the Tomb of the Unknown and being malicious….
I just see it as an overreaction…..” -justagurlinseattle

Yes, “it’s an overreaction…” …and something akin to a witch hunt, as others have rightly noted. She didn’t spit on any graves, to twist your words, justagurl. Rather, she behaved stupidly. She didn’t steal a body — she didn’t rob a grave. She didn’t murder anyone.

Allowing that it was a disrespectful act, the mob-like response simply doesn’t match “the crime.” And when the response isn’t proportional to the act or crime, one has to ask, “Why?” As DonS suggested, one might consider the following: Just maybe “we ARE honoring our own sense of guilt”…”almost as an excuse for the failure to find a better way than war”, in recent years and, also, in the case of Vietnam. Led to war “on false pretenses”, people are angry. After 9/11, people are angry. Good and honorable men and woman have died. Loved ones have died. Loved ones are still dying. People are angry. There are some who are calling for her head.

I would suggest that the anger that’s been directed at a young girl who thoughtlessly did a stupid thing be redirected at those who would so casually and fraudulently send our loved ones to die in wars. I would suggest that there are more appropriate outlets for our anger and outrage.
Do we want to honor the dead? Of course we do. Do we pay homage to those who, with honor, fought for this country? Of course we do. But do we “honor and pay homage” when we respond in a vituperative, reckless manner? Do we “honor and pay homage” when we respond with disproportionate anger. Of course, we don’t.

Did her employer have the right to terminate her employment? Of course. But was there a better solution? Absolutely.

Seems like this article has created some cognitive dissonance for some here, maybe all. So many factors. I guess the exception might be those who are convinced that Ms. Stone’s behavior is unequivocally shameful and disrespectful so consequences be damned. They have a special respect for ANC which, being the devil’s advocate, I could say, has no more absolute moral weight than anyone eles’s viewpoint, though I suppose that’s debatable. And, per many comments, I sense a sort of special pleading aspect to making this behavior so offensive. I’m really torn on that one. For instance, I have to separate my own general distaste for the military mindset from the poignant human drama exemplified by ANC. How is it that those who find Stone’s behavior so worthy of contempt don’t seem to struggle with countervailing sentiments, or appear not too. Seems like a massive job of compartmentalizing where THIS particular shrine to the dead is concerned.

I recognize my own contrarian nature (more amateur psychology!) plays a part in how I feel about this, including some identification with the underdog which, to many if not most, Ms. Stone would be: mere mortal, and not very attractive by some folks count, against the massive weight of, as some would have it, the martyrdom of the very best that this nation has produced. Whew, quite an uphill battle. Oh, and BTW, though Ms. Stone get’s (got) paid for her work with mentally challenged adults, let no one did themselves that’s a kings’s ransom, nor do individuals undertake that work, generally, without a commitment and feeling — maybe unsophisticated to some — to persons who need help.,

Finally, the leap from viewing the photograph to concluding Ms. Stone deserves firing (aside from the obvious fact that the employer has the right and ability to fire her) requires the intervention of a whole slew of mental and emotional permutations. Part is based on individual assessment — and how pure is that? And part is based on reference to societal norms. To those who make that connection and give a big thumbs down to Ms. Stone, but claim there is not a strong element of conformity with societal norms, I would wonder what else would it be? Infallible sense of human behavior based on a mere photograph. I’m not saying it’s right or, wrong, just not realistic.

As with most here, this is going to drop off my radar soon. But it certainly continues to engage reflection.

I might suggest that anyone with any opinion on this thread might take a day out of their lives, and spend a day at Arlington. If you are “lucky,” you might be able to observe a full honors military funeral. It’s a life-changing and life-affirming experience. For those who are unaware of what goes on, and have been in support of Ms. Stone, you might see things a bit differently.

And may I also suggest that you approach a family member and say something like, “I’m a complete stranger, but I’m very sorry for your loss, and I’d like to thank you on behalf of your loved one, for their service to this country.”

If you’ve never really made a stranger’s day, you most certainly will.

And I would fervently wish Ms. Stone, after some contemplation and discernment, a better life.

I have been around many mentally challenged adults that had speech problems, talk very loud compared to other people, make strange loud noises.
Maybe this worker ‘knew’ her group. Maybe she was just saying, it is going to be very hard for my group to stay silent. Maybe she was worried that a more ‘vocal’ member of her group was going to get them all in trouble by being noisy.
Maybe she was mad at the sign because she knew her group would not be able to comply all that well- nor would they understand why they had to be ‘silent’ instead of ‘quiet’. Maybe she knew she had some additional supervising to do in order to try to comply.

My father was buried with full military honors, loved our country deeply, and instilled his love of country in his children. Though my father chose to be buried in a tiny cemetery far from Arlington — a place that was dear to him — my first visits to Arlington were as a young child. I’ve thanked veterans for their service to our country. In a professional capacity, I’ve worked with veterans and some of my experiences are permanently etched…, without going into detail. Still, I, too, “bristle”, as if these experiences would somehow change my view of Lindsey Stone.

I would offer this:

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.” -Plato

This incident has brought out the worst… When someone hurts this girl (and there are some who seem to feel that it’s the appropriate punishment), who among us would feel “satisfied.” No one, here, I would hope.

“Lindsey Stone shouldn’t have lost her job. Nor should she be subjected to the barrage of hate that has erupted over her warped idea of what’s funny, and her misguided decision to post a photo of it online.

For their part, “Today” and other mass media must reassess the difference between shedding light and lighting a fire.”

One of the comments:

“Thank you, Peter Funt for your view on this incident. I personally know Lindsey Stone from the LIFE organization in Hyannis. Definitely a lesson learned for all of us. Yes, she made an offensive mistake, but for the media threw her out there for a virtual stoning. The media and the Internet in general are very unforgiving. So screw the Today show and all those that sent this woman up the windmill and torched it. Are you all happy now that she and her co-worker got fired the day before Thanksgiving? If that makes anyone “glad”, you have no room in your heart for forgiveness. I do and I can still say that Lindsey Stone is my friend.”

Doesn’t look like she is mocking the sign to me. The way the picture was made, it appears she is flipping off the soldiers who are buried there and yelling at them. While it was a stupid, insensitive act, it just shows that people nowadays have no sense of propriety anymore. Yes it was an idiotic gesture, it is even more idiotic to claim she is doing that to the sign, when clearly she isn’t, as evidenced in the picture.

Just wondering if those of you who don’t think her employer should have fired her would also be on the side of people like Gilbert Gottfried who was fired after he tweeted a horrible tweet just after the Japanese tsunami or Don Imus after his “nappy-headed hoes [or is it ‘hos’?]” comment, etc. There are SO MANY examples.

Everything thing you do or say or especially post on a social networking site can be taken as a reflection on the company you work for and they have every right to fire you rather than have to deal with the drama that comes along with something you did.

Again, you certainly have every right to say it or tweet it or tumblr it or facebook it or wordpress it or post a photo showing it, but you need to be aware that there can be consequences for your actions. And you SHOULD be called out for inappropriate behavior. Why should YOU get to say or do whatever you want without others getting to say or do what they feel in return? Free speech goes both ways.

Doesn’t look like she is mocking the sign to me. The way the picture was made, it appears she is flipping off the soldiers who are buried there and yelling at them.
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REALLY, Hubert Cumberdale?

Where are these Soldiers in the photo then?

If the words Arlington Natl. Cemetery were blurred out, NOBODY would have known where the photo was taken….
\
HOW can you say that it is clear she is flipping off the Soldiers, if you can’t even SEE any Soldiers or Soldiers graves in the photo?

Do YOU really think that if she was anywhere else with a sign saying the same thing, that she would NOT have taken the photo?????
YOU think she ONLY took the photo because of WHERE it was?
NOT what it said??

I DO NOT think that Comedians should be fired for being Provocative….
I EXPECT them to be Provocative…..

also, there are SO MANY times where people just MISUNDERSTOOD what was said….
Bill Maher was fired and lost his TV show Politically Incorrect after 9/11 when ALL he did was repeat was one of his guest said about the Hijackers not being cowards…
ALL he did was repeat what Dinish DeSouza said, and agree with him…
I was watching the show that night… and in NO WAY did I feel that what he said was that offensive…..

I find it rather amusing that so many people today complain about the world being too Politically Correct…. yet, the first breath of somebody saying something they FEEL is politically incorrect, they are kicking up a storm….

what I REALLY think, is that people want permission to be as racist or sexist as they would like to be out in the open, like Rush Limbough…
BUT, when they are offended by any tiny slight, they suddenly want EVERYBODY to be politically correct……

in my opinion, somebody making an immature joke too close to military graves is NOT all that offensive….

HOWEVER, when somebody is INTENTIONALLY hateful, that is when the line is crossed….

in the case of this incident…..

I just looked at the photo and asked myself if she would have taken that photo if she had found this sign someplace else…. and I came to the conclusion that YES….. she would have taken this photo even if it had been at a fish hatchery…. she was NOT making a statement about our Military…..
she, in my opinion was interacting with a sign, just as she did with a NO SMOKING sign, when she took a photo smoking next to it…

The prominence of the sign in the photo suggests otherwise. Her position in the photo is such that what she’s doing, mock shouting and flipping the bird, is easily distinguishable. The fact that she is beside the sign. The fact that she is pantomiming exactly what the sign commands not to do. All of these facts indicate she is mocking the sign, not those interred at ANC. It is not reasonable to suggest otherwise.

Hubert C., you have settled on the interpretation that apparently makes you comfortable. NAL has gone to the trouble to explain a far more reasonable interpretation.

You use your fairly fanciful interpretation, based solely on the photo, to support a generalization that “people nowadays have no sense of propriety anymore” How convenient. Do you include yourself as a “people” who have no sense of propriety? Generalizations really do undercut what you may be trying to say. I don’t even have to get into the merits of of your surmise about the photo; it’s absolute certainty — really impossible in this universe — negates it.

Why don’t you say what you mean and try to defend it rather than bulldoze with unverifiable assertions and meaningless generalizations?

. . . and JAG points out that “If the words Arlington Natl. Cemetery were blurred out, NOBODY would have known where the photo was taken….”, i.e., there is not appearance, except inyour mind, that swoldiers are being flipped off.

I’m an an amateur photographer myself ( a truly amateur pursuit, though I have been published), and I look at the photo with that eye. I find it an awkward attempt to convey something, but I can’t be sure what save for the prominent words “silence”, “respect”. All the rest of what has been made as a result of the social media posting, and the corporate media feeding frenzy, is based on interpretations which genuflect to societal norms and savage the individual.

What those societal norms are generally held to be, and whether I agree or not, my own view is that it’s not the sort of process and treatment an expansive view of democracy would support. But then, my own generalizations these days tend to lament what I see as a polarization of citizens that seems to be increasing.

@AnonPost – “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.” -Plato

If there were a “like” button, I would have hit it.

I’ll provide another quote: “To everything, there is a season…”

@DonS – Never meant to be a directive – merely (using the word “might”) was just a suggestion, but feel free to bristle away, if it makes you happy.

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Ms. Stone is 30 years old. Here, or at least in Clifton, near where I live, she might be a grandmother.

One thing I never considered until last night; was she with her charges when this photo was taken? If so, special needs persons are prone to imitating, especially imitating those who they perceive as their protectors/guardians. If this is the case, she set a poor example of social grace and respect for them to follow.

More importantly, if Lindsey Stone wants to rip on the Tomb of the Unknowns, me, my service, or the hundreds of mutilated troops I served with at Walter Reed Medical Center, she should be able to do so without fear of retribution. Freedom like that is what we fought for, and respecting other opinions is part of what the military tried to teach all of us who served.

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DonS…

This is a snippet from an article DEFENDING Lindsay Stone…..
and even they said that she was ripping on the Soldiers…..

It seems that the MEDIA told EVERYONE what to see… and the people saw it this way…..
The media did this to create controversy…
They NEED controversy to get ratings…..
and the people FELL for it…

I find it sad and VERY frightening that ALL of these people were so EASILY LEAD to see something in a photo, that just WAS NOT THERE….

JunctionShamus —> “One thing I never considered until last night; was she with her charges when this photo was taken? If so, special needs persons are prone to imitating, especially imitating those who they perceive as their protectors/guardians. If this is the case, she set a poor example of social grace and respect for them to follow.”

More speculating on top of speculating, all to pile on more. Leave her aloooone!

BTW JS, I. never meant to insinuate you were being intentionally directive. But around here, much of the time, words and the way they are used, are parsed unmercifully. That said, you might reread your comment on “a day at ANC”, with an eye out to the way it is saturated with presumption. Cheers.

Proofreading by the author would have made the following piece a little better, IMO, but he makes some very good points. Perhaps it’s already in the stream here — I may have missed it — but in the spirit of “leave her alone”:

“A while back, a friend of mine and I were having beers on a Saturday afternoon — probably too many, to be honest — and, as is our nature, we decided to play a little game, the goal of which was to come up with the simplest statement or product that would conversely offend the widest swath of people. After quite a bit of back and forth, we hit on it: one of those magnetic ribbons for the back of your car that reads “(F)uck the Troops.” Do we really have a hatred for America’s fighting men and women? No, of course not; my dad was a Navy SEAL, for Christ’s sake, and I have an immense respect for him and anyone else who’s served this country. The point was merely that an unwavering respect for our military has become possibly the most sacrosanct position our culture has ever produced and, strangely, agreed upon; even more than taking a shot at, say, Jesus, insulting our troops is the one line you simply don’t cross, not if you want to continue feeling safe walking outside your front door. Obviously, as such, our bad joke remained just that — a bad joke, one that never left that pitcher-cluttered table until right now. But the idea, even in our drunken state, was to shatter an oppressive taboo that had become a politically correct article of faith. Besides, there’s almost always something funny about going too far.

“Lindsey Stone made a bad joke, supposedly at the expensive (sic) of our troops although not really, and is now being made to pay for it in ways she probably never imagined. Her life has been turned upside down and there are people calling for her job and her head and basically threatening her life. To those people, I’d say: enough, already. You made your point. You’ve taught her the lesson that you believe you’re entitled to teach her — now leave her the hell alone. Go find something else to be furious about. I guarantee you won’t have to look very hard.”

“Human-flesh search engines — renrou sousuo yinqing — have become a Chinese phenomenon: they are a form of online vigilante justice in which Internet users hunt down and punish people who have attracted their wrath. The goal is to get the targets of a search fired from their jobs, shamed in front of their neighbors, run out of town. It’s crowd-sourced detective work, pursued online — with offline results.”

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel” is a quote attributed to Samuel Johnson which he made in 1775. What this quote means, in my opinion, is that when all else fails, bring out the flag.
Everyone will love you then.
The US spends more on its military than the next ten nations combined. Almost everyone has either served in the military, or has friends and relatives that are or were in the military. The US society
is closing in on a full generation that has never lived in a country that was not at war. The US is a very military-centric nation. To a large extent the US military now defines America and its values.
Samuel Johnson’s quote is hundreds of years old, and Americans have learned on their own that supporting the US military is a quick and easy way to get approval. This creates a symbiotic relationship between the military people and civilians. The military people can elevate their social status by flaunting their service. The civilians can show off by displaying fawning adulation for those in the military. The military people enjoy being the objectof all this attention. This creates a self reinforcing feedback loop between the two groups, where the military is elevated further and further to reach god-like status, and the civilians fall all over themselves to pay tribute to these idols. The result is an orgy of exhibitionistic narcissism. When it is perceived that someone is not participating in this groupthink, it creates an opportunity for everyone to confirm and reinforce their patriotic zeal by attacking this threat to their belief system. When it is a blatant and deliberate insult, as Lindsey Stone’s picture appeared to be, the result is an insane competition to see who can be most offended, who can display the most anger, who can be the most publicly hostile, all with one goal- to make that person look good. The more outraged you get, the better you look.
So, to the pack of wild dogs, to the (aptly named) congress of baboons who self-organized to destroy Ms. Stone for tugging at their psychological security blanket, I have this to say- The Lindsey Stone
episode is not about disrespecting dead soldiers, or free speech, or a prank gone wrong, or anything else like that.
It’s all about you.

Your right in some respect Gene. But the company also succumbed to the media jackels. They had a choice whether to stand behind their employees, perhaps with a reprimand, or just throw in the towel. Of course, had they chosen the former, all the other issues aired here would likely have mushroomed.

DonS,
Gene is right. If she had been my employee, she would have been gone as soon as I found out about it, and before the first story hit the news. Gone, as in canned. I would not need media pressure, and I suspect her employer did not either.

I’m going to have to mostly agree with OS on this one from a managerial standpoint. Were she my employee, she’d have been suspended until I could ascertain the level of fallout, but the first customer to complain would have been her exit sign. She’d have gotten written up regardless and as a manager, even if there had been no customer fallout, if it was her third strike, she’d have been out as well. Did the media play a role? Sure. The media certainly amplified the criticism, but business is business. Alienating customers is not good business especially in a not-for-profit social support scenario. Community good will is at the core of keeping that kind of business going and the competition for donations is stiff in a good economy let alone a down economy. She was on a bad career path of her own making the instant she posted that photo to social media under her control.

My experience with nonprofits, and I’ve held executive positions in two, is that they are not quite as rigid when it comes to a business model. Now things may have changed a good deal since I was last in non-profit administration many (25?) years ago. And the whole social media thing was non existent.

My instincts would have been to give the good employee another chance, though I expect pressure from a board of directors, maybe secondary to them being pressured, might have forced my hand.

DonS,
Social media has not only been a game changer, it has created a whole new game in the business as well as social world. I refuse to have a Facebook page for that reason. My daughter just had to unfriend and block some former high school classmates. They were arrested this past week, and she works in law enforcement. She cannot afford to have these individuals as “friends.” It could conceivably compromise her job. Someone who might want to someday get a security clearance had better have a squeaky clean social media network.

Why exactly is it necessary to write “please” on a sign?? Seriously, some things should simply be common sense if you have any type of upbringing and you should to simply KNOW to respect all of the fallens soldiers that are buried there. All of you are as bad as she is and obviously have no affiliation to the military (unless you want to remark that your grandfather who was killed before you were even born was in the military….how pathetic) There are others of us who live with the fear every single day that we will be visiting our husband’s at this cemetary because they chose to protect our great country and if I saw a woman so blatantly disrespecting the cemetary in which he was buried it would not be pretty. This article is a disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Wow – what a bunch of degenerates that are on here. No one said she “didn’t have the right” to do it, but she did have the right to use commonsense in at least posting it on social media. Grace is correct, why should there be a “Please” on the sign? It’s not a library…and since she was on her company dime while being there, you’re damn right that they had every right firing her. Most companies have a morals clause for their employees – if so, she obviously violated it. And remember, she admitted that she was a “Douche bag” – I didn’t say that, she did about herself. But there are quite a few on this blog that I can use that noun to describe.