So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000? What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric? I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB. Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?

Slow To Return:Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Darvish with 121 wins and closing in on 1700 strikeouts already.

Wins is a horrible metric. If you wanted to go with ERA -- 3 of the top 10 qualified pitchers in the AL in ERA are Japanese (Yu Darvish, Hiroki Kuroda, Hisashi Iwakuma). They also all have a WAR of 4.9 or 5.0 (among the top 6 in the AL) and have struck out a combined 480 batters while walking only 117.

wxboy:So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000? What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric? I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB. Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?

I think it's fine to count those hits in a personal achievement sense, but not in record-holder sense. Otherwise Sadaharu Oh would be the home run king.

Outrageous Muff:Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.

wxboy:So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000? What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric? I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB. Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?

I personally think it's something different. Japan is certainly a less competitive league than MLB but is better than AAA. I also don't consider WHA goals or USFL rushing yards as having validity.

wxboy:So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000? What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric? I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB. Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?

Japanese baseball is pretty high level. Many MLBers have played stints there, and a helluva lot of good players have made the transition from Japanese to MLB.

That being said, MLB won't count those hits, as it would mean a sea change for stats.

meanmutton:Slow To Return: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Darvish with 121 wins and closing in on 1700 strikeouts already.

Wins is a horrible metric. If you wanted to go with ERA -- 3 of the top 10 qualified pitchers in the AL in ERA are Japanese (Yu Darvish, Hiroki Kuroda, Hisashi Iwakuma). They also all have a WAR of 4.9 or 5.0 (among the top 6 in the AL) and have struck out a combined 480 batters while walking only 117.

ERA and WAR aren't exactly "career" statistics, in the sense that they don't accumulate. The point is that Japanese pitchers are successfully making the transition to MLB, even while facing MLB batters, which lends credence to Ichiro's numbers.

wxboy:So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000? What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric? I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB. Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?

NPB teams are usually rated between AAA and MLB, and the gap narrows a little each year. At the beginning of Ichiro's NPB career, AAA is probably a fair assessment. The best players obviously can thrive over here (Ichiro, Darvish, etc.). It used to be a pitcher's league, but now the scoring is pretty comparable to the US.

I don't think anyone will compare them head-to-head without adding the caveat, but I think it's still worth acknowledging the accomplishments of players with impressive professional career tallies like Ichiro, Saduharo Oh, Mike D, etc.

That all said, Pete Rose is a dick, and Ichiro is awesome. MLB should troll Rose by holding massive Ichiro celebrations.

In similar news, I think the Yankees should hold a random "Derek Jeter Appreciation Day" during one of A-Rod's appeal games, and arrange for A-Rod to hand Jeter a trophy inscribed "The greatest shortstop ever to play for the Yankees". If A-Rod wants to troll the baseball world, the baseball world should troll A-Rod.

1) Pretty good bat. (Ichiro lacks power and patience, but is obviously awesome at contact. Clemente was a more balanced package, but around the same overall quality.)2) Historically-good defensive RF.3) Great ambassador for baseball who helped open the game to new audiences.

Ichiro's also a historically good baserunner, which is just gravy.

See also: Brooks Robinson. Not quite a good enough hitter to be in the HOF, but you make the case with the glove.

Outrageous Muff:Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.

So anemic single hits and over-the-top theatrics over routine plays is how the game is supposed to be played? News to me!

Anyway, regarding Ichiro, MLB should count the stats for players who played in both leagues. They're comparable enough that it's fair (hur dur, NPB is lower. yeah? Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.

MLB should treat it like FIFA does: Any top flight league in the world counts. But in this case is only for the Jap league.

And if you're worried about Sadaharu Oh record being counted, remember I said MLB should count them only for players who played in both leagues. Since Sadaharu Oh never played for MLB, then his stats won't count for the league.

But guys like Ichiro and Matsui should definitely get their Japanese numbers counted.

abhorrent1:The one from Japan shouldn't count. Are they going to start counting hits for other players from other countries too? Maybe include everyones hits going all the way back to little league? It's stupid.

rocky_howard:Anyway, regarding Ichiro, MLB should count the stats for players who played in both leagues. They're comparable enough that it's fair (hur dur, NPB is lower. yeah? Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.

My impression of American players who have gone to Japan is that they do so because they can't get a spot here, where I imagine the pay is significantly higher. And they can't get a spot here because they no longer have the talent to compete here, but evidently they're still good enough to merit being signed to a Japanese team.

That's why MLB is better than NLB, because the pay is better, which attracts all the best players.

idesofmarch:wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000? What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric? I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB. Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?

I think it's fine to count those hits in a personal achievement sense, but not in record-holder sense. Otherwise Sadaharu Oh would be the home run king.

Considering Barry Bonds is the current HR "king", I'd rather have Oh instead.

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.

Is it automatic? No, because nothing in life ever is. But players who washed out of the majors go over to Japan and dominate ALL. THE. TIME.

Define "domination". They suddenly became leaders across stats or just had good seasons?

Even though, I think the argument you could make is that players from America are stronger, thus it's easier for them to hit the ball further, which translates into inflated stats, while Japanese players aren't generally known for power. It's a bunch of Derek Jeters overthere.

For pitchers, I could see your argument, but how exactly does that invalidate Ichiro'shiats? Especially when he came to America and batted more hits than anyone anyway.

"Wily Mo Pena hasn't been quite so dominant in the Pacific League, but he does have seven homers, two more than anyone else there. He'shiatting .309/.374/.591, despite having struck out 31 times in 110 at-bats."

So this piece of news confirms my statements: Since he's physically stronger, his power made up for it. He still struck out a lot.

wxboy:rocky_howard: Anyway, regarding Ichiro, MLB should count the stats for players who played in both leagues. They're comparable enough that it's fair (hur dur, NPB is lower. yeah? Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.

My impression of American players who have gone to Japan is that they do so because they can't get a spot here, where I imagine the pay is significantly higher. And they can't get a spot here because they no longer have the talent to compete here, but evidently they're still good enough to merit being signed to a Japanese team.

That's why MLB is better than NLB, because the pay is better, which attracts all the best players.

Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.

carnifex2005:Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.

I agree, except that he didn't, so we will never know for sure. Also, he began his career in Japan at age 18. Here, he probably would have spent several years in the minors and as a bench player before playing full-time in the majors to rack up those stats.

bulldg4life:Even if you combine majors and minors, the list of professional ball players with 4000 hits is as follows:

RoseCobbMusialAaronStatz (stayed in the PCL because he made just as much as in the majors)

..this is what I was gonna come to the thread and say

carnifex2005:Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.

This is my sentiment as well. No, it's not an official record, nor should it be, but it's still a hell of an accomplishment.

MFAWG:Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.

Outrageous Muff:Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.

A-Rod is a piece of crap human being, but my goodness, the young A-Rod (Seattle years) embodied just about the most perfect prototype for a ball player.

Played a premium defensive position well, hit for power, got on base at a high clip, had great speed (went 40-40 when he 22).

I get that (especially during the Yankee years) he has done some bush league crap on the field and he gets points taken away for that. Still, there is no way that Ichiro or Jeter are better examples of how the game should be played.

rocky_howard:"Wily Mo Pena hasn't been quite so dominant in the Pacific League, but he does have seven homers, two more than anyone else there. He'shiatting .309/.374/.591, despite having struck out 31 times in 110 at-bats."

So this piece of news confirms my statements: Since he's physically stronger, his power made up for it. He still struck out a lot.

Now, let's see his best season overhere:

Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+

AL 84 304 276 36 83 15 2 11 42 0 1 20 90 .301 .349 .489 .838 110

Are you seriously trying to say a 591 slugging is similar to a 489 because "he still struck out a lot?"

There are no Japanese players who weren't any good over there, then came here and were good.

wxboy:I agree, except that he didn't, so we will never know for sure. Also, he began his career in Japan at age 18. Here, he probably would have spent several years in the minors and as a bench player before playing full-time in the majors to rack up those stats.

Alex Rodriguez started his MLB career at 19. But didn't became a full player until he was 21.