Hi Peter, there are three sports/mixed routes on the headwall left of the Sweet Dreams g17 finish. They were put up by a Kiwi, Peter Constable, around 2000/2001 (and publicised in Thrutch) As far as I know they haven't been recorded elsewhere. They were intended to be rap in affairs, sharing a commom start and finish. g 18-21.

On 15/01/2009 mikepatt wrote:>Hi Peter, there are three sports/mixed routes on the headwall left of the>Sweet Dreams g17 finish. They were put up by a Kiwi, Peter Constable, around>2000/2001 (and publicised in Thrutch) As far as I know they haven't been>recorded elsewhere. They were intended to be rap in affairs, sharing a>commom start and finish. g 18-21.

G'day Mike - yeah I knew about Peter's routes, but Bentrovarto is on a different wall further back towards the descent. From memory it's the last major wall before the nasty traverse - Colosseum Corner goes up the right hand side of it, Bentrovarto goes up a crack just to the left, traverses clear across the wall in several pitches then exits up a variety of finishes. This sport route started several metres left again of Bentrovarto and looked like it blasted straight up the guts of the wall.

The arete to the right of Colosseum Corner looks pretty spectacular too - it's listed as "A? 19 ?m FA G.Robertson?" in the UBM guide. Always wanted to check that out too, although it doesn't look like it'd have much natural pro, and given the dubious nature of the description it'd be a bit of a gamble as to whether it has any fixed pro of any value on it. Pretty awe inspiring line when viewed from Betrovarto!

You beat me to it MIke! Safer Cliffs was originally designed for Vic, WA and QLD (and the rest of the world)

Blue Mountains is very unique in rock softness compared to 99.9% of crags in the world. Even Central Coast and Nowra have much stronger rock quality (there are plenty of expansions all over Nowra that are bomber).

If you have done any research into bolting (which, now days, you should have done before you started) you would realise that expansion bolts are not good in soft rock. There is a fair amount of information out there at the moment on bolting, it's not hard to find and read.

On 15/01/2009 Tris wrote:>If you have done any research into bolting (which, now days, you should>have done before you started) you would realise that expansion bolts are>not good in soft rock. There is a fair amount of information out there>at the moment on bolting, it's not hard to find and read.

I haven't found much on this subject, except what the Blue-locals know

Simply put - the soft Blue Mountains sandstone is as foreign to overseas climbers as carrot bolts. Even the most experienced European may have never experienced rock like it - apart from a few eastern block countires who use knotted slings on a handfull of sandstone tower regions. The british and americans have a bit more real world soft rock experience (shit british limestone and desert sandstone) but it's certainly not the norm. What we take for granted as fixed protection (ring-bolts and u-bolts) are actually quite rare overseas. The 10mm and 12mm trubolt is the norm.

Please respect the current ban on climbing and abseileing put in place by NPWS

Also be aware that the Police penalties are likely to be far higher - as it is possibly a crime scene
I am starting to doubt that you did any of this legally given the nature of your report and photos.

Not sure if this is of any relevance but I found a trip report on a Polish climbing site posted by some guys who allegedly put up a couple of climbs at Pierces Pass “starting half way up a 150m wall” – Master of Flies (27) and Boruta (26). The second last picture is meant to show where the climbs start. http://www.wspinanie.pl/serwis/200811/30australia4.php
Looks like they were in a hurry because they only had a few days left in Australia and were desperate to put up some new routes. They were using “ultralight Bosch gear” and placed expansion bolts.

I would guess that these are the new routes put up a few months ago on expansion bolts above the Lunch Ledge (Pierces Pass) which have recently been disabled by removing the hangers and nuts. This is not the same route that Nick was killed on, it is about 150m left and it not part of the current climbing ban.

>Can you post a translation here?
It's not that interesting. They talk about the Blue Mountains a bit and whinge about the weather, and that’s pretty much it. The routes were put up on the 25th of November.

On 15/01/2009 nmonteith wrote:>You beat me to it MIke! Safer Cliffs was originally designed for Vic, WA>and QLD (and the rest of the world)

There's plenty of "limestone" and soft red sandstone in West Oz for which expansions are unsuitable.

Legalities aside, onsight's report is very instructional and that of itself is worthy of thanks: it also made me feel sick by bringing back memories of a route we repeated 2 summers ago that was a real frightener due to similar bolting practises being employed when it was first put up.

On 15/01/2009 nmonteith wrote:>Blue Mountains is very unique in rock softness compared to 99.9% of crags>in the world.

What a load of sh*t! California has a large number of crags with much softer rock than the Blueys. Virtually everything along the coast has been pulverised by millions of years of earthquakes, yet it's the coast where the bulk of the population is so a lot of "barely rock" gets extensively developed (and extensively climbed on!) anyway.

Mikl - I seem to recall you mentioning once that you'd climbed at The Pinnacles? How would you describe that stuff? "Concrete chips held together by dirt and lichen" is probably how I'd describe it.

And that's not even the softest rock I've seen (or climbed on) - the top of Boy Scout Rocks at Mt Diablo has 6 inch deep grooves worn into it, since ropes are harder than the rock there and everyone top ropes (most routes aren't safe to lead - the rock is too soft for natural pro, and most of the bolts are pretty suspect). It's even hard to tell whether some of the holds on popular routes are chipped or have been worn that way from millions of sweaty fingers literally brushing away the rock.

> Even Central Coast ... have much stronger rock quality

Have you tested that? I find it very hard to believe that in general (ignoring patches of ironstone that are harder due to remobilisation) Hawkesbury sandstone (Sydney, Central Coast, Lower Blue Mountains) is harder than Narrabeen sandstone (Upper Blueys, Wolgan).

I don't think i've clipped a single glue-in bolt in the USA - and climbed at about 40 crags in about 15 states. Maybe Cali has soft rock - but my 'overall' experience of the USA is that expansions rule, and if the rock got too soft they smashed in angle pitons! Obviously there are exceptions - possibly areas bolted in more recent years since i was there ('99 and '02) or less mainstream or famous areas than i visited. I climbed Boulder Canyon (Granite) Eldorado (Sandstone) Rocky Mtns (Granite) Devils Tower (Volcanic) Sinks Canyon (Limestone) Wild Iris (Limestone) Squamish (Granite) Red Rocks (Sandstone) Mt Charleston (Limestone) Yosemite (Granite) Smith Rocks (Volcanic) Owens River (Volcanic) Zion (Sandstone) Rumney (Volcanic) Moab & Indian Crk (Sandstone) Jacks Canyon (Limestone) and heaps more. Never saw a single glue-in in 7 months of non-stop roadtripping.

Is there more use of them now Peter? Those crags you mention sound freaky! :-)

And yes, in my drilling experiance, the Sydney Sandstone is WAY harder than the Bluies in general - even the sea cliffs are way more bomber than the average Bluies crag. Most of the Bluies has a tough skin only a few mm and very soft rock just under it. Sydney crags are consistent all the way in. Drilling at choss looking Bondi took twice as long as drilling at Pierces Pass for example. Little Earlwood near my home is super stonker all the way through. 12mm Expansions would probably be fine.

On 15/01/2009 macciza wrote:>On 14/01/2009 Onsight wrote:>>>Here is my 'personal' report >>Please respect the current ban on climbing and abseileing put in place>by NPWS>>Also be aware that the Police penalties are likely to be far higher ->as it is possibly a crime scene >I am starting to doubt that you did any of this legally given the nature>of your report and photos.>>DO NOT TAKE ANY FURTHER UNAUTHORISED PERSONAL ACTION PLEASE . . .

I don't know about this crime scene business, but I reckon that protecting lives by educating the climbing community is a priority. Simon's report has been invaluable in this regard. How long does the climbing community have to wait before an official version is available? What are the chances of another accident happening in the interim?

On 15/01/2009 DaCrux wrote:>Not sure if this is of any relevance but I found a trip report on a Polish>climbing site posted by some guys who allegedly put up a couple of climbs>at Pierces Pass “starting half way up a 150m wall” – Master of Flies (27)>and Boruta (26). The second last picture is meant to show where the climbs>start. http://www.wspinanie.pl/serwis/200811/30australia4.php>Looks like they were in a hurry because they only had a few days left>in Australia and were desperate to put up some new routes. They were using>“ultralight Bosch gear” and placed expansion bolts.

Won't these fu*kers be pleased to learn that their routes no longer exist. The photo of the idiot leaning out over the cliff edge with his mate holding him back shows how safety conscious they are.