Ibis' Ultra Wide 741 Carbon Wheels - Review

We've now seen a number of companies debut wider than average rims, usually laced up into a complete wheelset and, so far anyways, generally manufactured using carbon fiber. As you might have correctly assumed, this can make for a wheelset that carries a larger sticker price than many people's first cars. The most reasonably priced of the bunch is Ibis' series of mega-wide 741 and 941 offerings that both retail for $1,299 USD, which also happen to be even wider than the other well known options out there. The '41' in their names refers to the external width of each respective rim, which is obviously 41mm, while the '7' and '9' stand for either 27.5'' or 29'' hoops. It is a rim's internal width that determines how the tire is shaped - Ibis' is a massive 35mm. To put it in perspective, that's 12mm wider than the Mavic rims used for the French brand's latest Crossmax XL wheels, and 10mm more than ENVE's new M70 and M90 rims. Pinkbike's own Richard Cunningham was just at the launch of Specialized's new wide offering, but even those measure in 5mm less. But does wider really mean better? Does Ibis' extreme approach add up to more performance on the trail?

First we had wide handlebars and now we have wide rims - is everything better when it's wider? Not really, but there are some convincing arguments for wider rims that go beyond the hype and into that rarified zone where truth and facts hide out. These are lifted from RC's great piece from 2011 that made a case for wider rims, a spiel that some in the industry seemed to agree with.

• Traction - a wider rim puts more of the tread in contact with the ground in a straight line and while cornering because the tread deflects less dramatically under lateral loads and remains more parallel to the rim.• Weight - consider the tire and wheel as an integrated unit. The tire weighs much more than the rim, so a wider rim, though slightly heavier, adds volume to the tire without adding additional rubber and tire casing. This could be especially beneficial to 29ers because the big wheel already spins way too much rubber.• Stability and Reliability - wider rims add a significant amount of lateral support to a tire - especially large-volume tires like the 2.35 and 2.4'' rubber that has become regular fare for trail and all-mountain riders. A tire casing could be made lighter weight and boosting the tire’s lateral stability should eliminate burping. This last point is arguably the most beneficial, as RC goes on to say:

Turns out there may be another culprit to blame for the thorn in the side of tubeless. All pneumatic tires flex from side to side under lateral load shifts – it’s in their nature. One reason that wider rims give tires more lateral support is that a wider rim ensures that the tire’s contact point hovers between the rim flanges. It is possible for a tire’s contact point to migrate outside the rim flanges and in such case, the line of force between the tire and rim would go over-center. In the same way that a quick-release lever generates an exponential amount of clamping force when it goes over-center as it is closed, once the tire’s contact patch moves outside of the width of the rim flanges, the tire’s ability to support the rider is significantly reduced, while the leverage it imparts to lift the opposite side bead from the rim would substantially increase. This effect would explain the

feeling of a tubeless tire burping – the tire suddenly collapsing under the weight of the rider or the G-force of a turn and then losing pressure. Of course, a narrow tire could not flex far enough to allow the contact patch to get near the danger zone, but a big, flexible 2.35-inch tire on a 22-millimeter (OD) cross-country rim certainly could.

At 20 degrees of imaginary lateral distortion, the wide-rim tire's contact point is just nearing the danger zone over the rim flange (B), but it can still support a load. The narrow rim's tire has flexed to the point where the contact patch is over center (B) and the bending forces are creating tension across the tire casing which pulls on the opposite bead, drawing it up and away from the rim flange (D). The seal has been broken and air may be already leaking.

Carbon Rim

At 41mm wide externally and 35mm internally, the 741s look absolutely massive when you sit them next to a more run of the mill setup, though their lack of flashy decals and matte unidirectional carbon finish gives them a much more subdued appearance compared to some of Ibis' competitors. Look elsewhere if you want everyone to know you have carbon rims, or maybe just go out of your way to tell everyone that you ride with if you really want them to know. There's more going on here than just their extreme width and under the radar look, though, because the rims also lack any type of hook on the inner face of their walls - it's flat and vertical (shown at right) rather than sporting the classic inverted J shape that we've all become familiar with. Ibis isn't the first to do this - Specialized has had their hookless bead cabon rim around for awhile now - but it is one design point that can make for a much more damage resistant rim when it comes to dents or, when talking about a carbon rim, fatal damage. This is because instead of how a rim's hooked bead is thin vertically before widening out at the top, a hookless design can carry that same thicker width from top to bottom, and more material used smarter adds up to a stronger shape. How strong? ''We tested the impact strength of several major brands of carbon fiber rims and discovered that the change to hookless bead was a major advantage in impact strength,'' Ibis says on their website. ''We also optimized the layup to further increase strength. In the end, our rims are 50 to 300% stronger in impact than competing rims we measured. We don’t want to throw anyone under the bus, but we do want you to know that these are well-respected and well-known manufacturers.''

Ibis told us that they also add carbon around the spoke holes to deal with the forces from a tensioned wheel, and that the spoke holes are drilled rather than molded-in as ENVE does. Is one method better than the other? ENVE says that molded-in spoke holes make for a stronger finished product due to not cutting and disrupting the carbon fibers along their length, but that approach likely also plays a part in upping manufacturing costs. Does that extra material at the spoke holes and hookless rim bead add weight? No doubt about it, it's a contributing factor, as is the extra carbon it takes to build such a wide rim, but they still weigh in at a very competitive 475 grams. Just for reference, a Stan's NoTubes ZTR weighs 530 grams in the same diameter and with an internal width of 25mm (29mm external), 10mm less than the 741s, although they do retail for $93 USD. Ibis does not officially offer the 741 rims on their own quite yet, although they are planning on having that option soon.

The illustration above, provided by Ibis, gives you an idea of the sidewall shape and size comparison of the 741 versus their skinnier 928 (28mm wide) and a more common rim.

Hubs and Spokes

The wheelset's Taiwanese-made hubs, much like its rims, lack any sort of pizzaz that would grab the attention of someone who's attracted to shiny things. No well-known logos or bright colours here, just plain black hubs that look to be more function than flash. This might come as a disappointment to those who are fond of having something from Chris King or DT Swiss at the center of their wheel build, but it also surely plays a part in the 741's reasonable-for-carbon $1,299 USD price tag. Both the front and rear spin on Enduro bearings, and the driver depends on three paired pawls to deliver 15° of engagement. Aluminum driver bodies are available in both Shimano or SRAM's XD configuration if you need to make a switch, both of which retail for $68.99 USD. Axle conversion kits can also take the front from 15mm to 9mm QR ($15.99 USD), and the rear from 142mm to 135mm QR ($18.99 USD).

Simple looking hubs lack flash but spin on Enduro bearings.

Ibis has gone with a traditional 32 spoke layout that they say is more reliable than using fewer spokes that need to be tensioned higher: ''In our tests we found that although you can reduce the weight by using fewer spokes it hurts the long-term durability and also is more prone to damage from sticks getting lodged between the spokes,'' and they go on to cite how they feel that more spokes gives the rider a better chance of being able to pedal out of the bush if the worst does occur. ''A 24 spoke wheel with even one broken spoke often can not be ridden as the tire will be hitting the frame. With 32 spokes you have a better chance of riding out after a mishap.'' That's not to say that the build is plain jane, though, as the spokes are triple butted and laid out in a two-cross pattern that, thanks to the design of the hub's flanges, sees them not make contact with their neighbor where they cross. You'll know why this is a nice touch if you've ever had your bike making odd creaking noises that you tracked down to a spoke crossing and lost tension after weeks of searching. External nipples make for easier wheel truing than if they were hidden within the rim, although those with only thumbs for fingers will need to be careful as they are aluminum. Stainless steel washers also sit between the rim and the nipples.

The aluminum driver body depends on three paired pawls for drive.

Setup

We mounted up a set of Maxxis' 27.5 x 2.3'' Minion DHFs tubeless on both the front and rear wheels, a process that we found to be slightly less difficult than performing your own root canal, although maybe not as painful. The Maxxis tire and Ibis rim combo made for quite a tight fit, which in turn made for thumbs that were quite sore by the time we were done, but the flip side to this is how easy is was to inflate and seat the tires. No compressor needed, and it only took a few strokes of the floor pump to have both tires pop into place without any hassle. The 'TR' - tubeless ready - Maxxis tires did lose all of their air over the first night, though, but a second inflation and second ride saw them seal up without any further troubles. Once mounted up, the 2.3'' wide Minions measured in about 3 - 5mm wider than if they were on a rim of more standard dimensions. Their wider profile is only part of the story, though, as the rims' 35mm internal width also increased the tires' volume, not just the width at their tread.

Two points to mention here regarding setup: you'll need to use a relatively long tubeless valve stem (they come with the wheels, and Ibis also sells 48mm stems for $7.99 USD), or make sure to buy tubes with long stems if you aren't going to run them tubeless. Having a flat tire way out in the forest and discovering that your spare tube is sporting a standard length valve stem would be rather frustrating, and we took to making sure that we had both a valve extender and a spare tube with a long stem in our bag at all times.

Our rear 741 came with the XD driver body that we required for testing, but we pulled the hub apart to see how difficult the conversion is regardless - we found that it was pretty damn easy. The driveside cap threads off with a 17mm wrench, and you can slide the driver body straight off the axle afterwards. This also makes for really easy cleaning and maintenance when the time comes.

On The Trail

Two different riders spent time on the 741s: test rider #1 weighs in at well over 200lb and rides hard enough that he often finds himself having to run between 35 and 40 PSI in his tires in order to keep from burping his standard setup, and test rider #2 weighs 170lbs and usually prefers to run pressures around the mid-20 mark depending on the trail. Reliability for both testers proved to be pretty impressive, with not only no flat tires to report, but nearly zero burping despite tire pressures going well below what both were able to get away with when using a standard width rim. In fact, 200lb+ tester #1 began with 30 PSI and slowly let air out until he was comfortably in the mid-20s without any issues, something that simply wasn't possible on his stock wheels and tires. He reported that things started to feel a big vague for him when he went below that number, which is to be expected given his size and the amount of tire deformation that can occur, but ran them as low as 18 PSI for testing purposes. It was only then when he was able to get the rear tire to burp air once in a hard corner, although tire pressures were admittedly far too low for him to feel comfortable when pushing hard, something that would result in too much tire squirm when cornering or when on the brakes. This is to be expected, of course, but it did illustrate just how low he could go with air pressure before running into trouble. Pumping them back up to low to mid-20s depending on the trail, a full 10 to 15 PSI less than what he was used to, proved to be best for his terrain, size, and riding style.

170lb Tester #2 had the same sort of experiences with the 741s, although he was able to run even lower pressures due to him weighing over 40lb less, going from mid-20s to 17 PSI front and back on the digital gauge without any issues. He suffered no burping at that pressure, but did complain about the vague feeling that is caused by too much tire roll when cornering. Going back up to 20 PSI made for a much more consistent feel when charging hard, and that ended up being the tire pressure that he preferred, regardless of conditions.

So, what did the setup feel like at lower than normal pressures? Very, very different than what we were used to, at least at first, and the benefits of the ultra-wide rim and lower tire pressure combo became pretty obvious as soon as we began to trust the setup. Traction is the most obvious perk, with there clearly being more grip on tap when one is faced with a tricky climb. It didn't matter if it was wet, dry and loose, or just rooty and rough, the added volume and lower pressures had the 2.3'' wide Minions declaring that any and everything under them was theirs to grab ahold of, which then moves you forward and up the slope rather than spinning out. The same thing goes when you're pointing the opposite direction: there is definitely more braking bite, and although we'd be hard pressed to say that we were actually braking any later, we would argue that it's just a more confidence inspiring feeling when you're trying to drop the anchor on a steep face or for a tight corner.

The other, slightly less expected benefit is one that makes sense when you stop to think about it: the higher volume setup does help to isolate the rider from rough ground slightly better than a typical tire and rim combo. Factor in the larger size of the tire with the lower air pressure and you up with a more forgiving ride, something that those who prefer shorter travel bikes, or even hardtails, should take note of. This could lead to you being able to even get away with a tire width smaller than what you'd normally run, thereby saving you some all important rotating weight. We also felt like we were being deflected off smaller impacts on the trail less often - picture square rocks, rooty ledges - than when running a standard wheelset and tire combo. Theoretically, this could mean more momentum carried over rough ground, but all that we can say for sure is that the bike felt like it was being knocked around less than usual.

Issues

With us able to get away with less tire pressure and enjoy the benefits that go along with that, there isn't much to brood over when talking about on-trail performance. Yes, you can still burp them, but that really only happens when tire pressures go from really low to so low that they won't even register on most floor pumps - try lower pressures but use common sense, please. It seems that one of the main issues with the 741s is figuring out what tires to use on them, as going with a something that sports a squarer profile will likely give you some pretty strange handling characteristics. Picture how square the shoulders would be on a Maxxis' Highroller when you mounted it up to a 741 - talk about on/off traction in the corners! 741 owners should only mount up tires with rounder profiles to them, much like the Minion DHFs that we used for testing. Schwalbe has a number of tires that would fit the bill as well, including the Hans Dampf. It could get even better if tire manufacturers get behind it: Ibis' Scot Nicol did allude to tire companies possibly offering wide rubber with a rounder profile that is tailored specifically to ultra-wide rims like the 741s and others. That sort of integration is when we expect to see the system, and the wide rim and suitable tire really need to be thought of as a system, really come into its own. As of right now, you might be out of luck if you prefer a certain tire but it sports a square shape.

Pinkbike's take:

There's no doubt about it, the 741s have convinced us of the benefits of ultra-wide rims. They allow the tire to provide more traction, make for a more forgiving ride, and also proved to be a much more reliable setup when running low tire pressure. This last point was shown to be true when one large rider able to run at least 10 PSI less than his usual pressure, and the other more average sized tester preferring about 5 PSI less, both with out any burping. The 741 wheelset isn't exactly inexpensive, but at $1,299 USD it does cost less than many other carbon wheelsets on the market that feature standard width rims. For this reason, and because of the benefits talked about above, we'd be far more likely to purchase a set of 741s before any of those other options.- Mike Levy

The truth is that human beings are gluttons. Period.If somebody tell us that we can have more of something for the same price (or expense), we will massively say "yes", no matter our real needs. That's an evolution atavism.Today, carbon allow to produce larger rims for the same weight. They look sturdy, massive and unbreakable. They look almost military. Now we can transform our bikes in monstertrucks.Years of expertise, long-time testing, world cup evolution teaching us that bigger is not better for wheels don't matter : we can have mooooore for almost less.

The proof is how we let us being easily convinced by subjective argumentation and simple paper drawbacks, without any scientific results or even study. Traction, weight, stability : SHOW ME THE FIGURES, then, COMPARE IT to the standard value. Your are not scientist, so don't base your argumentation on pseudoscience unless you can prove your statement by a scientific protocol and demonstration.

Why the hell would you apply to bicycle the solutions found for motorbike ? Does a road bicycle works like a grandprix motorbike ?Thinks are not simply transposable, and mavic showed 15 years ago that wide rims were not a good idea for DH.Look for mavic 729.

My comment was down-voted. What am I missing? I have never needed more traction - I'm running High Roller II on Industry Nine Wheelset. I know, its old school aluminum. But its rad, and I don't have any issues. Why would I change to a wider rim?

ive had just amazing luck with the 40mm 27.5", hookless rims offered by NEXTIE-BIKE , www.nextie-bike.com , really quick serviceim so impressed that im getting a set made with some extra materials(30 grams more) and will be running them for DH this summer

Mavic are an antiquated marketing organisation. Ever pulled down one of their p.o.s hubs? Talk them up and your reputation is bunk. Syntace do wide alu. Check their shit out. They have been making wide rims for years. Try them to believe them. Traction goes up significantly. Don't believe it? Strava or gps track your loops before and after and if you don't notice a big change you must be riding on a straight motorway. Try it.

Professed, Pinkbikers generally want to stick to their guns no matter what, even if the alternative is trying something new (i.e. 650B, wide rims) and loving it. You can't just ADMIT that the science behind some new technologies does, in fact, provide more traction, or roll faster, or whatever the case may be (even if you tried it and were proved wrong). You have to just keep insisting that "my 26er with narrow ass rims works great, this is all just a marketing attack to trick me into buying better, errr, I mean NEW stuff!!"

Yes, and syntace is a well-known non-profit organisation. I precise that I owned several pairs of mavic rims (not wheelset) but now I'm on hope evo 2, sapim laser, ZTR Arch because currently no 21 or 23 mm rims in 27.5 from mavic.Mavic wheels owned more world cup medal in any discipline than any other wheel maker. Can you say the same from syntace ? Or do you believe that there is a global complot against syntace because they are germans ? As well, since their release in 2011 and prediction of bright futur for wide rims, no wide rim as taking power in XC nor in DH. Syntace has been making rims since 2011, so not so long relatively to others (DT, mavic).Concerning your strava protocol, well, I suppose you did your strava loop 30 times withe 21mm wheels, same bike, same environnemental conditions, same equipment, same rider fit, then again 30 times with wider rims, then calculate basic central tendancy and dispersion statistics, for each segement of your track, before attributing in a so confident way your speed gain to your rims. You didn't ? Mavic did. Guess their conclusions.

I think gnralized's proposal for an experiment sounds good. I would love a chance to do the test and record it. Now if someone will just send me some wide rims (laced to some hope hubs of course) and I will test them against another set of high end rims laced to the same hubs, but narrower. Or failing that, let me just go from 2.5 to 2.1 tires and see if I notice a difference. Oh, wait, done that. Noticed it quick. I even noticed going from my wife's lazer disc xc wheels to my atomlabs on my previous rig.My money is on wide rims for the win. I believe in the science behind it. Wider is better. There was a pontiac commercial to that effect back in the day.I am not convinced by race statistics for one obvious reason: Mavic's wins because they know how to back up a good rider. That is how sponsorship really works. Not building the gear that will draw riders, but providing the rides that will be ambadassadors for your gear. McGarry, not Diamondback did the back flip at Rampage. Ferrari makes a fast car but that isn't why their cars have such a great F1 record. My old riding buddy could destroy most of PB on a 5" travel bike from 12 years ago pretty much any trail at the bike park, all the while losing knobs off his walmart tires.

The low pressure thing doesn't really work - its great if you ride where there are no rocks, until you ding a rim, and write it off.

I've broken a Haven Carbon, 2 x Enve & 1 x Derby rim. All caused by damage I would expect a normal rim to take (albeit with dings).Other than taco'ing a couple of rims in the past i've never written off so many rims since I went to carbon. They just arn't suitable for hard MTB use.

Went back from the Derby's to an aluminium setup & normal pressures. No more issues. Guess what - no less grip either.

HobNob I have the opposite experience. Dented rims constantly went to Haven Carbons and stopped denting rims, but missed wide traction. Went back to wide aluminium and dent rims agains. Waiting on Derby DH's to get the best of both worlds

@hobnob Sorry, but you must be out of your mind saying carbon rims " aren't suitable for hard MTB use". Ratboy, Peaty etc seem to get on just fine with them on world cup DH, are you saying they don't ride hard?

I'd be more inclined to think that you have a small case of "bad workman blaming tools" if you get through wheels like that... maybe look a little closer at your riding rather than saying that carbon wheels are no good for hard MTB use....

But remember guys Ratboy, Peaty and all the other pro's have their bikes wheeled into a mechanics tent for a going over after every run and new wheels readily available whenever they need them. I would say it's very likely they go through at least more than one set of rims on a race weekend. Would love a set of carbon wheels myself but I tend to be quick harsh on wheels and can't face breaking carbon ones

@IssacGrey - not really lower, maybe 2/3psi difference. Found the tyres squirm too much when you load them up otherwise. Minimum of 25psi in the front and 28 in the back.

@ ad15 - not saying that at all, but comparing a privateer setup to a WC setup is very different. For starts they have a truck full of spares, and believe me, they do use them. Plus you have no idea they are running aftermarket spec rims, they can adjust the layup to account for the use of hardened WC racers if needs be. They don't do a very good job of hiding the trashed parts at world cups. In fact there is a certain shop in the south of England that has lots of broken ex Syndicate Enve rims hanging on the wall, just from one weekends racing at Fort William.

Maybe a case of me being to hard on them, but is don't think a rider who podiums at the odd regional DH race is particularly hard on kit, I certainly never had the issues before I tried carbon, and haven't since.

@orientdave - mostly carbon for rims, I and mostly of the people I ride with who have tried them have had issues, hence my opinion. Maybe we do ride harder than most, Who knows, all I can use is my sample data & it's not great.

Regarding the width point, I'm in the camp that they have made no real difference. I went from a Derby, back to a Flow. Don't all of a sudden struggle for grip, in fact, don't notice any difference. Maybe if went from an old school 819 to one I might notice something, but from a fairly generic average I can't tell.

That said, I certainly understand what you're saying about carbon rims. I would love to know what the budget in wheels alone is for Santa Cruz over the course of a season. I tend to believe in carbon, and have seen it used to great effect in other disciplines (500cc, MotoGP, F1, etc....), but that alone doesn't mean it's yet ready for everyday use for riders on a limited budget right?

As for width, volume, and tire pressure, this is a secret that's been know in motorsports for a long time:compliance. The tire is the 1st part of the suspension to contact the ground and it's the ability of the sidewall to flex that is the root of that compliance. When there is too much air in the tire, or the sidewall is too stiff, or both, the tire is likely to bounce (or try to bounce). You'll see more deflection over small to medium stuff. The tire will spend more time in the air over small irregularites, which is a terrible thing in fast sweepers or tuns in general. Instead of griping, the tire will skate, which will eventually lead to hard parts hitting the ground if you can't arrest the slide.

A more compliant tire will grip better. The physics and experience over the years in motorsports backs this up.

yea id like to ask them how many theyve used this season so far haha . they deffinately dont have only one set. and they also ride about 3 or 4 different bikes in a day . people like me and you only have one bike aswell....... im just keeping a backup set just incase they like to explode

Been riding the shit out of a pair of light bike Chinese carbon rims with no issues despite several hard rock strikes and some scrapes. The rims are totally true with no additional attention required. Can't say I''ve experienced that kind of reliability from aluminum rims.

Rat boy popped a spoke during a race run and messed up his wheel last year, I remember that much. That aside...those of you with carbon rims....I get the wider rim+lower pressure thing! but especially with carbon, wouldn't that mean more bottom outs and thus more rocks smashing into the rim? I'm very light and I wouldn't want to run rims at under 25 or so...

@ad15... sorry but Ratboy and Peaty get a new rim mounted on their bike after every run if they have to happen an issue without having to tell somebody their credit card expiration date...What works in WC dos not necessarily work for Joeys Sunday ride. You would not chose a Formula1 Car to go for your grocery shopping either...

@michibretz: Agreed! But that then begs the question if Enve is selling the same wheels the Syndicate uses to customers that expect them to last for two years of ham fisted riding?

What would be great for the customer is rules akin to Enduro. Force teams to use the same set of wheels for a weekend! Either that or force the teams to use "off the shelf" goods, much like SuperBike and Touring Car racing. You can bet your bottom dollar that 5h1t will stop breaking and the stuff the customer buys will be closer to what the team rides.

@michibretz if they had a new rim every run they would get through an astounding number of rims most racers getting at least 20 runs in over the practice to race day that would be 40 new rims per rider on the team for one race weekend not gonna happen is it haha

I remember after the first year of the Syndicate running Enve wheels, that they said they used to use 30-40 rims per rider per season before Enve (which was Mavics I think), and only something like 4-5 rims per rider per season with the Enves.

On some 30mm light bicycle rims here as well. 27.5 flavor. had a couple hard 5' drops at highland mountain bike park onto rocks and felt the tire bottom out the rim, pinch flatted (my fault, was only running 24-25psi) etc.. not a mark on the rim. Have overshot transitions on 12-15' drops on them as well with no issues. I am only 150 lbs, but I ride pretty hard, tend to pick lines rather than blast chunk, but so far, the light bike rims have been awesome. I don't like riding with less than 25 PSI anyway, unless I'm going out for a slow techy ride in wet conditions.

It usually takes me a bout 2 years before i need to switch out my rims or wheels, but I do not regularly pound the snot out of them. If you're going to ride your wheels like you stole them, they might not last as long as you plan, whether they're made of carbon or aluminum.

@ hobnob, you were running Haven's and ENVE M70's or AM's for DH racing?

Even if the rims are good, the hub with 3 paired pawls and tiny spring around them, found on every low budget wheelset, seems like a cheapest solution and will most likely fail. I would expect something a little more hitech from wheelset at $ 1299.

It's the infamous Joytech freehub, as made world famous by Easton Haven wheels and present in cheapo OE wheels the world over. I have to wonder what these companies are playing at putting $50 hubs onto $1300 wheels, actually scratch that, probably playing at the dials on their new Merc... ...On the plus side spares will be very cheap, need a new freehub? Just hit up Superstar and away you go.

@Fix-the-Spade they are not Joytech. The hubs are made to our own specification by a small CNC shop in Taiwan. @Hri666 we have been riding these hubs for 2 years, have made numerous modifications and the reliability has been good. The assertion that they 'will most likely fail' has not been our experience.

All: we are looking into offering the wheels with DT and King hubs. The price will be higher with these offerings.

I ride Stan's Flow rims with 2.3/2.4 tires. I have never had problems with burping. When i run the rear tire below 30psi on aggressive downhills i am pretty much guaranteed to put a new dent in the rim. Do these wider rims somehow help with that problem, or will I still be psi limited by rim strikes?

There might be a slight improvement with wider rims, but generally it won't matter much. Maybe 1-2 PSI lower... But the issue is: You'll also need to run slightly lower pressures to get the same feel - wider rim makes for a larger contact patch, which makes the tire stiffer.

Im more interested to hear in the differences in handling characteristics and also if it changes the(fantastic) way that the minions transfer on to the side knobs. When i had wide rims i found that the bike more reluctant to lean over for corners. Tires also roll slower on wider rims because more knobs touch the ground.

I can certainly agree with the last statement. I used to run about 26 psi with my mavic's (19 internal width), and I now settle on 28 with my light-bicycle rims (28 internal measured). Below that drag increases immensely with conti x-king's 2.4. Although traction is better everywhere anyway.

followed by some bollox 3D animations of swirly spheres and 'free radicals'.

The little freebody diagram is rubbish. A tyre is a flexible component and all of the forces are supported by hoop stresses and the internal air pressure. This is not shown on the nonsense diagram and discussion of a 'danger zone'.

Yup, intuitively a wider rim makes sense in offering more support. But if you want to use some scince, please make sure it's genuine.

The subjective ride opinions are a lot more valuable than the psuedo science...

I can't be assed finding the study continental tires did on wide rims a few years back, but I remember them stating that it had a noticeable difference in traction and the science behind it. I mean the idea has even been floated on pinkbike before in 2011 "www.pinkbike.com/news/Tech-Tuesday--Wider-Rims-Are-Better-and-Why-Tubeless-Tires-Burp-.html". For once the bike industry isn't feeding us bollocks and I personally can't wait to ditch my roadie width(nearly) rims once it gets picked up a company like stans or easton.

Mavic is the only serious enterprise in the MTB wheels industry, I mean from testing prrotocoles, longevity, long-term expertise, etc...10 years ago they went with DH wide rims (729), then came back because too much rigidity, not enough tire deformation, pinching because of too low pressure trying to get comfort back, etc...Today, Deemax, which are in development since almost 20 years, are 21 (!) mm wide internally, and those rims are run by the best riders in the world since almost an eternity, and have proven to have no tire burps and being the most reliable wheelset on the circuit.Crossmax enduro are 21 mm front, 19 rear, and have won EWS for their first year, in tubeless use, WITHOUT any pinching, tire blurp, etc...So for me, until we have enough return, enough testing (and no more poor conceptual drawings) and until mavic say "go", super wide rims are marketing hype again.

The only thing you didn't mention was the loss of overall diameter which is also a major negative in my mind. In my garage testing, I've found that if a tire is x wider due to a wide rim, the overall diameter is reduced by x2. So the mentioned 3 to 5mm increase in casing width on the tested minions would equal 6 to 10mm off the diameter.

Uhhh. Actuallyin the link it explains why your garage maths us wrong. The centrifugal force of a wheel rotating keeps the o.d diameter of the tire the same, the only difference being that you loose the balloon effect.

There was not really any maths. Only measurements and a very simple relationship between them. As your tires get wider they also get shorter. 2mm added to the casing width by wider rims drops the tire height by, surprise surprise 2mm. This increases the diameter by 4mm because the diameter measures the tire section twice.
I've measured a lot of tires when swapping betweem different width rims and the effect is quite predictable with very little variation.

Derby rims FTW! Too bad the article does not mention that Ibis worked on these with Derby, who pioneered their development and who sells individual rims. About the square tires FUD - I run a pair of Derbys with Spesh Butcher Control and Purgatory Control, both tubeless, and I am very happy with their cornering performance - and they are fairly square. The wide rims are really sweet, and with some big casing 2.4 tires, people ask me if my Ibis is a fat bike.

One more comment - the rims are deep and they make super stiff wheels, they just refuse to flex. One of the reasons, besides the volume of material in these, is their short spokes. Unlike any other 650b wheels I built, you build these with spokes lengths typically used for 26" wheels. I believe no 26" wheel comes close to well built Derbys in the stiffness department.

@SoCalMX, I am undecided if i want to give you props for "doubt you could feel the difference between sizes" or neg-prop you for the ignorance that as a matter of fact the smaller size of the seem wheel is always going to be stiffer arguing the are like granite... you work in marketing?

Have you had the chance to ride these? All I am saying is they are super solid regardless of size & at that high a level, doubt you could tell the difference...Don't get your panties in a bunch, ma'am.

They are Derby rims. But ibis gets the credit. Just built up some wheels with white ind. hubs and syntace w35. Everything stated in the article is true. Traction is significantly better, rolling resistance has dropped ( no idea why) and the wheels are silly stiff. I fell into my rear wheel on an awkward step up crash and the wheel is still spot on true. Ok, run the tyres at 12 psi and you will root your rims, but I progressively dropped my pressures to high teens front and low 20s rear and no pinch flats after 5 rides . Makes sense . Try it before you knock it. Specialized are copying as they do so it must be good....

That hub looks like cheap garbage. 3 pawls, 15deg engagement? I'm not expecting an amazing hubset for that wheelset MSRP, but there are definitely better OEM hubs out there that are just as easy to service and convert to different axle standards.

Different factory, actually, but similar product. The dimensions of the rim are the same, but Ibis offers complete wheelsets in much larger production numbers. Ibis doesn't hide the fact that the Derby rims are similar - they actually helped to fund the Derby rim molds - and they acknowledge as much on their website.

well i just built a set of nextie rims , same as derby factory form what im told and the rims were about 170 each . my hubs ended up costing 550 tho "true precision components " but they will be a nice wheelset when they get here they are 30mm wide so shouldnt be too bad.

Derby's rims (very similar to the Ibis rims) seem to be a lot more durable than the Light Bicycle versions. I'm loving mine! I was able to lower my tire pressure about 5 psi versus Stan's flows (30 to 25) and noticed a nice increase in traction and control.

Do like the sound of the wider rims but think the Derby's would be my choice due to the fact you have a choice of hubs.Also like the fact you buy Derby's direct, cuts out the middle men (in oz - distributor + bike shop) which keeps the price down

The prices I quoted for the rims are from the Derby website, the hubs are from CRC, As for being ripped of by my LBS.....
I am my LBS. Pretty sad that Hope hubs are still cheaper from CRC than I can get them wholesale.

Shopped around and ended up building my Derby wheelset with Hope hubs for ~1000... Best upgrade I have ever made (until my Warden frame showed up yesterday). Seriously, these wide carbon wheels are so good I was blown away! I would have a hard time putting an "Ibis" product on my bike, a brand thing. Glad we have options!

Stick with maxxis. I tried hans dampf and do not like them at all. Everyone i know thinks they suck too. If you corner hard they will wash out on you. I'm running both down as a back tire with an ardent up front. The back slides and the front grips.

Hans dampf will be more cushy than the high roller 2 but pedal like crap, loose knobs and wash out. Ditch the ardent and get serious. High rollers all round. You won't regret it ! Chose softer compound (3c maxx) out front .

Why am I suspicious about the physics of the advantages claimed from running these at lower tyre pressures? Surely, like always, the bigger the volume of your tyre (or fork or shock air chamber) the lower the psi required to give the same surface rigidity/support. Some of these comments seem to suggest that running a few psi lower will suddenly give a more grippy (conformable to roots etc I assume) tyre that is the magical holy grail. But surely, running a few psi less just gives the same tyre/surface/tread rigidity as on a smaller volume tyre with a few more psi. Am I wrong?

This is a question I have posed...are wide rims optimal if the tire is not designed to match the width of the rim? And I'm asking with regard to all the conditions, not just the ability to run a lower psi. In other applications with similar demands on the tire - the tire design only fits within a range of rim widths.

And the square profile tires having on off handling they talk about in the test is wrong. The tires conform to the trail when running lower pressures, so even if it it is a square profile, it still handles great. Try it before you say it will handle poorly.

Now jumps can be built with less (forgiving) landings again (pun) because youngsters can buy uber $$$ wider, bigger volume wheelsets, and still not afford insurance to pay for the "wreck of the week" because its paid for from the mysterious big nanny money tree. Funny after 30+yrs of riding, watching almost all my former riding buddies quit (for their own rational-ed or self preserving reasons) to still watch how we still misplace our priorities in this so loved gravity sport.

The market is good and the souls are easily sold on the technology's latest and greatest! God bless youth and ....... then again maybe more so wisdom from age. I confess earlier in life I ran all the "got to have it now newest , greatest, superstar"stuff. Now that the 80s, 90s and 00s have passed. I still huck, but less (of course being a smarter 13yr old in a 50yr old body) but guess what? I will stick to my $500.00 DTs and back up set of Atomlabs so I can afford the next stitch me up job or concussion at my local "hot nurse hang out, while my awesome supportive wife scolds me again! I'll just remind her why I quit sky diving.....and say; " the bikes are okay! "

Oooook......nothing new...back in the 90s we ride wide rims 36mm and 40mm many company made them like azonick outlaws, Sun Ringle schoobus wide...nothing new...Next new idea : RIDE WITH A SMALER REAR WHEEL.....B.S.! Companys have nothing new they just recap old concepts in carbon fiber!

@ so calmx I think you need to get more info on that..there are more than 14 types of comercial aluminum alloys, that will work better than carbon fiber, the most common series are 6000 and 7000 but you can even get 9000 series. The poin here is that carbon fiber is CHEAPER to handle. It does have excellent properties but don't think that vis a vis is better than Al it will depend on the application. If you try a pair of wheels from a department store...the wil not hold up.

Gotta love the interwebs... new technology introduced. HATE IT - worst idea EVER. I will never change!!!. LOVE it - it's the BEST thing and the rest of you can suck it. What's funny is that it all settles down into either a new standard or options that have plusses and minuses. Flame away!

These rims despite my initial love, are garbage. I had a pair of 741s crack at the spoke eye after less than 3 months of riding, and Ibis cowardly put all the blame on me as a crash replacement. These wheels have not been crashed and have been inspected and serviced by my local mechanic flawlessly a few times in their short life. Also there are documented cases of these wheels failing at the spoke hole and valve hole, and yet somehow it is user error now that you have gotten tired of having to replace inferior product you sent to market. I have lost any and all respect for Ibis today. You are a pathetic excuse for a company, and I can't wait to tell every person about your short comings as a manufacture and customer service based company.

"$1299 USD isn't exactly inexpensive…" No Sh!t, that's a lotta cake, like halfway enough money for a good used car to go and ride everywhere you've ever wanted, a week off work to do the same, or a damn good used roadbike to train on and screw the weight weenies. At this price these should have Mavic or preferably, Shimano hubs, if only for the relative ease of replacing a freewheel on the latter, although Murphy's law dictates that Shimano freehubs rarely fail. I don't see the wide thing as groundbreaking, I mean look at a Sun Doublewide in 26" (yeah, i know, way too old) from 15 years ago, it's wider even still, and you can even get it with 36 spokes. Wide rims never really fell outta use, they just didn't get specced to new bikes, so you had to source them.I'm a believer. Same tires all mountain riding on the same hardtail bike, same trails, but 22mm inner width vs. 27.5 inner width is no comparison. With stiff sidewall tires you can run 7.5 PSI less in the wider rim, never get a flat, land poorly (but not too poorly) 4 foot drops without rollover, and they are WAY more forgiving for traction on the way up. This is riding with tubes BTW.I'm a believer in wide rims, and more than happy to pay the weight difference.I'm all for technological advances, but I don't think this one has been fully bugged out yet. Time will tell what ideas are relegated to "Do you remember the…" vs. "How did people ride without…"So really, is it the mounting system that is $1300 new here? Looks impressive, but $1300 impressive? It sounds like changing a tire on the trail due to a sidewall gash might have you walking out.My prediction is that these may be on sale soon right beside 1 1/4" Aheadsets

I haven't tried Ibis wheels, but I'm a big fan of wider carbon wheel setups. As a plus-sized rider (I weigh about 225), I've had a lot of trouble with tires burping or rolling off rims during hard cornering. These often result in bad bails, and forced me to either run tire pressures that were way too high, or lose confidence in the bike when really hauling ass. Bad news either way.

I haven't had the same issues at all with wider rims, even though I usually run slightly lower pressure now. Going from a pair of Easton Havens to a wheel set with WTB I23s made a notable difference (tire selection could have played a roll too). I recently upgraded to a wheelset with Hope hubs and no-name carbon 35mm hookless rims. I haven't had any problems with durability, but I don't have a ton of miles on them yet. I also haven't had any problems tires burping or rolling off the hookless rims. And tubeless ready tires seat super easily on them, and make a big difference in the profile of the tire. Its a pretty noticeable difference.

I was a little hesitant at first to go with hookless rims (which apparently isn't an issue at all) and had concerns about the durability of the no-name rims (as a side note, I initially thought they were made by Toray in Japan, but its just the fibers, and they were actually made by LiteBike in China). If I had known that, I probably would have gone with Derby/Hope and had the LBS build them. If the Chinese rims shit the bed, I'll definitely upgrade to Derby rims. But I'm cautiously optimistic thus far.

The Ibis wheels seem like a great option, as they come backed by a solid company and aren't in the ridiculous price point that Enve wheels currently occupy.

Add Procore(+ 200 grams per wheel) and try out 2.25 Hans Dampf (27.5 680 grams per tire) = 880 per tire with Procore ! The Procore will also help protect the LB rims and the Snakeskin Shwalbe tires. Think I'll get this combo too.

All the perceptive advantages have most likely to with choosing the best tire. This tire with tubes has been used with extremely low pressures for many many years.A tire that burps is next to useless and dangerous. That leaves a heavy plastic cartwheel with underspeced hubs. Like no graphics.

I would love a set of wide stiff rims for my 29er trail bike. The only problem is that the rear tyre fit is mega right and a 2.2 Nobby Nic just fits in without rubbing. I run a Minion on the front but it won't fit in the back. Due to skinny rims I feel they have to much of a rounded profile and I'm not getting the outer edge of the tyre to hook up properly. I have looked into Stans which I run on my 4x bike and due to their increase width it would cause my Nobby Nic to rub in my frame. Stuck between a hard place and a big rock at the moment!!

Well nobby nics on the back is suicide anyway. Almost died running those once. The wider rims will allow a narrower tyre to sit more square and lower pressures provide more grip. Ditch your crap NN, try a wider rim front and back and run a very narrow dhr or hr ii. You will live longer !

Try the less expensive Wide Lightnings(29.3mm/1569g) with Rocket Rons 2.2 or Thunder Burts 2.1. You get lighter faster rolling tires that on wider wheels have more cushion and grip without rubbing. Bontrager XR1 2.2 are doing it for me on those wheels now.

Nice idea that may be worth trying. Ibis are great. I like the subtle approach without garish graphics. 'A 24 spoke wheel with even one broken spoke often can not be ridden as the tire will be hitting the frame' ?? - sorry but that has happened to me 4 times, on a 24-spoker, with about 6 or 7mm max deflection at the end of the day but its smart to go with 32 spokes when they sell with good old fashioned (tho easier to replace/service) J-bend spokes. No 26". Not UST. Not for me.

a few thoughts:1) that graphic, Why would the force vector point inwards and pull the tire of the rim if the flexible tire sidewall is still bulging outwards? I know this statement does not make sense for most people without knowledge of physics or at least some basics in mechanical engineering but a soft piece does not work like that. its like trying to push something with a rope.2) tubeless-ready tires do not seal at the sidewall of the rim, they sit and seal on the bottom of the bead so if the tire moves away from the sidewall a bit no harm is done. 3) if you ride 35-40 psi you can just s well run a 15mm road bike rime. Chances are you tire will crush the rocks and not the other way round.4) Rim width Its a little like wheel diameter. It increases inertia in a wheel (not as much as changing the diameter though). Bigger inertia means higher Forces are needed to change whatever the wheel is doing right now. If its rolling a bigger force is needed to stop it rotating or throw it of its course hence it feels more stable. The same bigger Force is also needed once the wheel is stopped to accelerate it again or tho bring it back on course once a rock garden changed your direction without you intending to do so... 5) Rim width Is exactly like wheel diameter. Not physically but in terms of sales strategy. Companies just do stuff differently so marketing has something to talk about and people buy more. They try to find niches they can own in the market. This works for one company but soon other companies see that one is selling some kind of stuff well, mostly because they are the only ones, and everybody starts doing the same thing in hope for more market share. Not everything that gets developed gets developed to perform better. Actually most stuff these days gets developed to provide a better profit margin for the company selling it.

I also don't believe that lower pressures with wider rims makes for a smoother ride. Think of a monster truck tire, the are rock solid with 4psi in them. The force of the air on the inside of the tire is a function of volume times pressure equals total force. Its how any hydraulic pump, ener-pak, or even your clutch and braking systems work. So greater volume at less pressure is equal to less volume at greater pressure. Here come the negative props :-)

It doesn't matter if the force due to internal air on the whole tyre is the same with wider rim and lower pressure (=force per unit area). What matters is the force on the 5cm^2 of tyre that that rock just hit, which will be lower due to the lower pressure.

I'm using a set of Enve m60 40s on my bronson and I'm amazed how people say they break them, I went off a 10 foot jump in Spain landed full force on the back wheel was off the bike for 3 days from injury and the wheel was perfect. I weigh about 200lbs also.

For me this wheels are overpriced. 7 or 8 years ago I had exactly the same hubs, wich had American Classic logos, laced to WTB rims and Whellsmith 1.8mm spokes. Wheels were fitted on a hardtail for XC use and the hubs did not deal so good when given some abuse. Pretty light but not reliable at all. If I can remember hubs costed something like 250€ both.

in my experience, yes. I ran derby's and while I loved the extra grip, with a wtb vigilante, there was quite a bit more rolling resistance, all that traction made them slow for me. just lots more tire on the ground. I went back and like hobnob, it wasn't night and day differnence going back to regular rims. less rolling resistance and faster up, a little less compliance down, but not drastic at the same pressures.

Syntace. For years. Leading the pack again but without any recognition coz they are German. 26", 27.5 and 29. Up to 40mm wide in 26. Shot preened and anodised. Cheaper than any carbon stuff and 2x the quality of the shit light -bikes junk. Buy that junk and prepare to die young. Your call.

Graphics are lame. You ride with them like an advertising board and don't even get a discount. I think stickered products must be given away for free. And if I pay money, manufacturer should put their logo somewhere inside themselves.