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look, I read all the discussions I'm here from 2008 I've been in court of atheists more than others in more than a forum ..

We are discuss the details of Islam with the atheists While the atheist does not recognize the existence of God So, How does he/she Believe the Koran or the prophethood of Mohammed peace be upon him!!! (I say that not for I insult to atheists at all but I Explain to stand them Only) as I knew them

as you know ,adoption of an agnostic to the idea of Rejection Makes the debate is very complicated Not because we have no evidence to prove what we say but because he/she has been able to reject idea than we are discussing now ...

We have the freedom to put forward ideas and teachings of our religion (islam) and they (atheists) have the freedom In the conviction or not

I hope that every atheist looking for the truth without bias To know that the goods when accepted by more than one billion people and rejected by others not necessarily be the problem in the goods itself, but may be in the perception of the same person..

Let's put an example :

What's this ?

it is a boat right ?

Is the boat-making by human beings or not?

If I said No. it is making the same by itself

All human beings will be rejected this idea and say you are crazy

Ok , When I say that the universe was made by the Creator would be crazy also ..!!

This shows that the idea of Existence something from nothing is not reasonable or acceptable

thanks all

imanway

hahaha brother imamway, that truly made me laugh, that is exaclty what it is like trying to explain to people the existence of allah, swt, somehow the universe created itself! they will accept this answer over the possibility of a creator, that creator being allah, swt. they say they need proof yet they show no proof that the universe created itself! then they choose to say well then what came before allah, swt, surely the shaytan has implemented thoughts into the minds of the disbelievers. subhan allah, they do not know the unseen, they do not see the miracles that allah, swt, has revealed to us. instead the shaytan tries to misconstrue the word of allah sent through his slave and messenger muhammad, pbuh, and the disbelievers will say, look what i have found, but surely if anyone could have disproved the religion of islam it would have been his uncle, written while he was alive that he would be sent to the hellfire for not believing in allah and accepting islam, surely he of all people could have disproved the quran by simply converting! but subhah allah, he did not and insha allah he will be sent to the hellfire. surely people nowadays could not disprove the quran because one person had the power to do so and by the will of allah, swt, it did not happen. humdallah. brother imamway i look forward to seeing you around.

Yet you propose god created itself, or has always been. Using YOUR logic, then the universe could have created itself, or has always been.These are YOUR claims. When turned back on you, and believing they are mine, you have come to the same conclusion as I. RIDICULUS NONSENSE. Except using your logic, I did not invoke "magic".

Yet you propose god created itself, or has always been. Using YOUR logic, then the universe could have created itself, or has always been.These are YOUR claims. When turned back on you, and believing they are mine, you have come to the same conclusion as I. RIDICULUS NONSENSE. Except using your logic, I did not invoke "magic".

never said allah created himself. just said this universe is a creation and in turn needs a creator because NOTHING IN EXISTENCE has ever created itself. therefore theres a creator for everything. saying something created itself no matter what it is is "ridiculous nonsense". and you say you dont use magic and u have some kind of logic? the universe created itself.... that sounds like no logic AND magic. subhan allah, you have already been disproven on so many subjects, so many "contradictions" and yet you never say that you stand corrected, instead you try and find something else that could possibly be wrong with islam... theres no point in talking to someone who CANNOT admit when theyre wrong. youll just never admit it. so whats the point... you had the wrong concept on drinking in islam, the "muddy spring" in islam, etc. etc. but youve never admitted to being corrected, instead you try and find something else to argue about... keep trying your only wasting your breath...

According to you " NOTHING IN EXISTENCE has ever created itself." How then do you explain Allah?

Actually I agree with you that nothing creates itself, as in the big bang theory, energy changes to matter. In abiogenesis non living elements gain life, and this life evolves and changes to more life, hence the huge variety of life on the planet today...Only the religious say that something created itself....Your may not say that your gods created themselves, but what other explanation is there?

You also claim that your god created man from water....Now that is just silly.

never said allah created himself. just said this universe is a creation and in turn needs a creator because NOTHING IN EXISTENCE has ever created itself. therefore theres a creator for everything. saying something created itself no matter what it is is "ridiculous nonsense". and you say you dont use magic and u have some kind of logic? the universe created itself.... that sounds like no logic AND magic. subhan allah, you have already been disproven on so many subjects, so many "contradictions" and yet you never say that you stand corrected, instead you try and find something else that could possibly be wrong with islam... theres no point in talking to someone who CANNOT admit when theyre wrong. youll just never admit it. so whats the point... you had the wrong concept on drinking in islam, the "muddy spring" in islam, etc. etc. but youve never admitted to being corrected, instead you try and find something else to argue about... keep trying your only wasting your breath...

Not one thing you have said to me has corrected me. Not one.

By your logic, everything is created. So who created Allah.
If you want to postulate that allah as always been, then using YOUR logic, the universe has always been in some shape or form, except I am only taking one unknowable step, were you are taking two.

What was before, out outside the big bang, the honest answer is "I don't know".

According to you " NOTHING IN EXISTENCE has ever created itself." How then do you explain Allah?

Actually I agree with you that nothing creates itself, as in the big bang theory, energy changes to matter. In abiogenesis non living elements gain life, and this life evolves and changes to more life, hence the huge variety of life on the planet today...Only the religious say that something created itself....Your may not say that your gods created themselves, but what other explanation is there?

You also claim that your god created man from water....Now that is just silly.

i never said "god created man from water" i said gods creations consist of water. we were created from clay/mud.

im glad to hear that we have come to an agreement that nothing can create itself. humdallah...

as far as your question as to the existence of what came before allah no one knows. but it is not relevant to the peaceful way of life. just like god did not reveal to us many things that have happened in the past. there are things we just dont need to know. if you were to have your question answered as to where god came from then the question would be never ending. then where did that come from and where did THAT come from and where did THAT come from... it would be never ending. all that is needed to know is that god created us and here we are. who cares what came before allah, everything has to have a beginning and an end in this world. im not saying god was created by a higher being than he, i dont know. maybe allah is the beginning, as per the bible says "i am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end". its unrelevant and unecessary ro know what and if there was something before the god that created all we know in existence. it would serve no purpose, however everything in the quran that is revealed from allah serves a purpose. the lifestyle of the prophet was shown for a reason, everything he did he did had wisdom behind it and the quran has wisdom within its verses.

but im sorry if i misunderstood what you were saying, you do not believe that the universe created itself, does this mean you believe in a higher being?

By your logic, everything is created. So who created Allah.
If you want to postulate that allah as always been, then using YOUR logic, the universe has always been in some shape or form, except I am only taking one unknowable step, were you are taking two.

What was before, out outside the big bang, the honest answer is "I don't know".

what a liar, this is why i dont talk to you anymore and a majority of the time why i just ignore your "rebuttals" and hope that everyone else does too, your just ignorant....

Originally Posted by Gplex here is another.

16:67 And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense.

2:219 Strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin.Originally Posted by eanassir
These are the two ayat and their explanation:

The aya 16: 67

The explanation:
(And of the fruit of the palms and the grapes you [people] take therefrom sweet things and good provision; surely, in that is a sign for a people who have sense. )

The word سَكَرًا not سُكرًا : it means sweet things that people make like the jam and fruit juices and dibis which is the date syrup.

The aya 2: 219

The explanation:
(They ask you [Mohammed] about the wine and gambling.

Say: "In both of them is great sin, and [some] benefits to people, but the sin of the two is greater than the benefit.")

here he proved you wrong with authentic hadiths and you did not reply saying that you stand corrected NOR that he was right and you misunderstood.

and then you told me about a "contradiction"....

"This is my favorite one..
He [i.e. Zul-qarnain] followed, until he reached the setting of the sun. He found it set in a spring of murky water.
(Surah XVIII ( Kahf) vs. 85-86)"

and i explained that this is a narration and that he was simply describing what he saw... not that the sun ACTUALLY set in a spring of murky water... i explained that it was like someone saying that they saw the sun set into the ocean, it obviously does not set in the ocean, its just a description...

but yet again you did not say that you were wrong or that you now understand what has been written, you just came up with something esle that you claimed was wrong with islam....

meaning you cant admit that your wrong about anything which is like i said, why i just dont take you seriously anymore. your not debating, your just throwing things out there without accepting that what is written is true and surely not a contradiction. ive seen other people prove you wrong as well as i. the first step to gaining knowledge is actually admitting your wrong. until then, im actually not even going to respond to anything you have to say anymore. its pointless. your close minded, one sided arguments are really annoying...

i never said "god created man from water" i said gods creations consist of water. we were created from clay/mud.

im glad to hear that we have come to an agreement that nothing can create itself. humdallah...

as far as your question as to the existence of what came before allah no one knows. but it is not relevant to the peaceful way of life. just like god did not reveal to us many things that have happened in the past. there are things we just dont need to know. if you were to have your question answered as to where god came from then the question would be never ending. then where did that come from and where did THAT come from and where did THAT come from... it would be never ending. all that is needed to know is that god created us and here we are. who cares what came before allah, everything has to have a beginning and an end in this world. im not saying god was created by a higher being than he, i dont know. maybe allah is the beginning, as per the bible says "i am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end". its unrelevant and unecessary ro know what and if there was something before the god that created all we know in existence. it would serve no purpose, however everything in the quran that is revealed from allah serves a purpose. the lifestyle of the prophet was shown for a reason, everything he did he did had wisdom behind it and the quran has wisdom within its verses.

but im sorry if i misunderstood what you were saying, you do not believe that the universe created itself, does this mean you believe in a higher being?

Do you actually think that man made of mud, dust or clay makes more sense than water?

No, I do not believe in a higher being. Personally I think it's nonsense. I really don't know what the universe was before the big bang, but since matter and energy cannot be destroyed, perhaps before the big bang there was only an intense mass of energy that changed to matter...

To me the quran is no different than any other holy book...The imaginations of men written down

Do you actually think that man made of mud, dust or clay makes more sense than water?

No, I do not believe in a higher being. Personally I think it's nonsense. I really don't know what the universe was before the big bang, but since matter and energy cannot be destroyed, perhaps before the big bang there was only an intense mass of energy that changed to matter...

To me the quran is no different than any other holy book...The imaginations of men written down

well you have a choice to what you want to believe. i believe differently. before the big bang there was a gaseous matter, at least thats what scientist predict, im not going to argue though because even though scientist have recently come to this hypothesis, its been written in the quran for oer a century now. but man being created from the earth does make sense to me. and the fact that i stated that all of allahs creation consist of water makes no contradiction with the previous statement as mud/clay consist of water, not entirely of course. but yes its not hard for me to believe that statement. now we are not made of mud/clay but we were i guess you can say formed out of it. thats a whole other story though. angels were made of light, and the jihn were created out of fire. i mean, im not imposing my religion on you or anything, im just saying that your entitled to your opinion as well as i and that neither one of us is wrong in a sense, you just believe differently than i do. so if you have questions please ask, but i ask that we do not argue over what we believe because when it comes down to it, were both going to believe what we both want to believe you know.

well you have a choice to what you want to believe. i believe differently. before the big bang there was a gaseous matter, at least thats what scientist predict, im not going to argue though because even though scientist have recently come to this hypothesis, its been written in the quran for oer a century now.

The most popular theory is that the big bang originated from a singularity. I have not heard of any science saying that it was gas...One more mistake in your quran, I'm afraid. Singularities are beyond our current understanding of physics and are said to be infinitely small, infinitely hot and infinitely dense points in space-time (everything around us). That’s what is believed to be in the centre of a Black Hole.

Quote:

but man being created from the earth does make sense to me. and the fact that i stated that all of allahs creation consist of water makes no contradiction with the previous statement as mud/clay consist of water, not entirely of course. but yes its not hard for me to believe that statement. now we are not made of mud/clay but we were i guess you can say formed out of it.

In a way you are correct. Every atom in our bodies came from previous life or non life, and when we die they will be utilized again, But we were not literally created from mud/dirt/clay/water, although our bodies contain some elements of these things...You may as well say we are made of iron, copper, zinc, magnesium, sodium, calcium, and a thousand other elements necessary for life

Quote:

thats a whole other story though. angels were made of light, and the jihn were created out of fire. i mean, im not imposing my religion on you or anything, im just saying that your entitled to your opinion as well as i and that neither one of us is wrong in a sense, you just believe differently than i do. so if you have questions please ask, but i ask that we do not argue over what we believe because when it comes down to it, were both going to believe what we both want to believe you know.

Sorry. it is just beyond my understanding how anyone can believe this fantastic stuff...Personally I prefer reality over fantasy.

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