The US launched nuclear bombs when they were the only ones with the bomb, since then it has become impossible to use these bombs. What do you think Stalin, Hitler or the japanese empire would have done if they had the nuclear bomb? They would have wiped out their enemies, once city after the other. .

I get the feeling you are reading selectively. All this speculation about what other states would have done had they acquired the nukes before the US are just that, speculations. Fact is, they didn't and even after they acquired nukes (though as you said this might largely be due to nuclear deterrents) they did not use them. The US did, and then a few days later, they did it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexybeast

I mean US dropped nuclear bomb on an enemy who had dropped biological weapons on civillians all over China, killing 10 milion people in that war alone. Sovjet union killed many more than the US in their brutal invasion of Nazi Germany. Even England bombed the hell out of Dresden killing as many people as the atomic bombs in that attack but unlike Hiroshima and Nazaki this city was destroyed without any purpose.

you have a serious double standard mate, who are you to decide that certain bombings have a purpose and others don't? I'm sure if you were Russian you would be arguing the complete opposite of what you are arguing now..

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexybeast

All I got to say is thank god the US got the bomb first, as I said the lesser evil among the powers of the world. Good guys, they are not and maybe it does not make it OK but you need to get over the idea that US is uniquely corrupt and evil compared to other superpowers that have been or will come.

ugh the uniqueness about the US is not it's corruption, it's the fact that everyone goes along with it. Other countries doing the exact same thing would have been condemned or worse invaded and rendered helpless, and rightly so I might add. And please stop trivialising deaths of people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexybeast

One illegal war which was against Iraq, one partly legitimate war against Afghanisthan that was prolonged too long, way too long (should have wiped out Al Quaida and gone out of there immediately). US has the world's largest military and bases all over the world which means they have power to start wars overseas, doesnt mean they are nuts, someone who is nuts act completely illogical and I think even if the war in Iraq did not suit US interests it did suit the interests of individuals who planned the war, wether it be the war industry, the oil industry, israeli lobby or any other force that was decisive in pushing the buttons for US to invade the war. It suited their industry, Enron got oil contracts in IRaq, Israel got Saddam wiped out, military complex got bigger
About illegal wars, China has illegaly occupied Tibet for 60 years and killing hundreds of thousands of people there. Afganisthan will be left to be dominated by their talibans in 1-2 years when the US leaves but Tibet will forever be dominated by the han chinese, soon probably replaced aswell.

The behaviour of the US government (and yes of the UK before, and most likely the Romans and Egyptians before, ie every superpower) is that of a selfish state which is interested in having as much power as possible, regardless of the consequenses, either to others, or even their own people.

You rightly name Tibet, which is an atrocity. The list of similar atrocities by the US however is so much longer. Cuba, Haiti, Vietnam, Indonesia, Iraq, Afghanistan, just to name a few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexybeast

World government controlled by super lobbyists, banks and the media moghuls, far away from any of the real problems they invent solutions for? World government who attack any rebells who want to break free from this empire? You gotta be kidding me, that is plain and simply tyranny. There is no popular backing to this even if they will want to shove it in our guts, there will be no way to control power when a few have so much power over distribution of money.

Yeah, break down cultures, languages, unique traits of different regions and create one hybrid people who listen to Idol, eat Mcdonalds and drink Cocacola, speak english and all listen to the same propaganda. How wonderful, this brave new world of yours. Such easy sheep to control, so much power at the hands of a few.

Why you think small countries like Switzerland who doesnt take part of big unions (Nato, EU) without natural resources are so rich and have never fought in wars? Why you think Iceland recovered so fast from their economic meltdown? Why you think only small countries like Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, New Zeeland, Norway and Denmar are at the top of low corruption rankings?

Dont give a few too much power or you are bound for catastrophy.

So many assumptions...what you describe sounds pretty much like the world today tbh. You are completely contradicting yourself in the last sentence, because that is exactly what happens to the US.

I said that we are not yet ready for this, but it is also an inevitability. Cultures and languages are already breaking down, globalization will lead to this.

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I get the feeling you are reading selectively. All this speculation about what other states would have done had they acquired the nukes before the US are just that, speculations. Fact is, they didn't and even after they acquired nukes (though as you said this might largely be due to nuclear deterrents) they did not use them. The US did, and then a few days later, they did it again.

Like said before, with all the atrocities of Nazi Germany, Stalin Sovjet and Japanese empire you cant seriously belive they would stay away from using the bomb. This is not speculation, these guys killed 50-100 million together in a short span of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jverweij

you have a serious double standard mate, who are you to decide that certain bombings have a purpose and others don't? I'm sure if you were Russian you would be arguing the complete opposite of what you are arguing now..

Dresden bombing was unnescessary and without purpose, in the US case there was an ultimatum they hoped would work. We have the bomb and will instead of invading Japan use it in city after city until the Japanese government surrender, that is reasonable even if cold and maybe unethical even against an unethical enemy. When brittain bombed Dresden it had no purpose at all, it was just revenge.

I am not american ,russian, german or anything else. Russians invaded Nazi germany with blood in their mouth to have revenge for the horrible crimes Nazi Germany had done in their own country. What they did to Germany was alot worse then what the US did to Japan, but not worse than what germans had done to Russia previously.

My strength in debating this issue is that I have no emotional attachment to any of these countries and feel no one is much worth defending. I chose to defend the US because I get tired of the two dimensional view anti-americans have of the world, they are ready to support almost any of America's enemies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jverweij

ugh the uniqueness about the US is not it's corruption, it's the fact that everyone goes along with it. Other countries doing the exact same thing would have been condemned or worse invaded and rendered helpless, and rightly so I might add. And please stop trivialising deaths of people.

No, not great powers doing the same. See China in Tibet, Russia in Chechnya and so on. Also some smaller countries can do atrocities with support of any of these great powers. See Israel with support of US, Sudan with support of Russia/China, Syria's regime and so on. Big countries can do as they like, anyway only the US has the military strength to truly go around the world to start wars. For now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jverweij

The behaviour of the US government (and yes of the UK before, and most likely the Romans and Egyptians before, ie every superpower) is that of a selfish state which is interested in having as much power as possible, regardless of the consequenses, either to others, or even their own people.

You rightly name Tibet, which is an atrocity. The list of similar atrocities by the US however is so much longer. Cuba, Haiti, Vietnam, Indonesia, Iraq, Afghanistan, just to name a few.

You mix some real illegitimate atrocities like Vietnam and Iraq, then legitimate wars like the one in Afghanistan and even East Timor independence in Indonesia which in my eyes was legitimate, the complete catastrophy which is Haiti is barely US problem and no atrocity has been done there and neither in Cuba, I do think the veto is wrong now that the cold war is over, but a veto is no atrocity. I hope you are not claiming the failed invasion of Cuba by Kennedy was an atrocity, it was just an atrocity of stupidity.

US has done some good things aswell, I think it was good they saved Korea from North Korea's communist regime even if it cost 2 milion people's lifes, ofcourse it is always easy to look back when we now have the results at hand. Overall the US was a force for good in the second world war together with Brittain. Thank god US existed to counter balance the Sovjet Union.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jverweij

So many assumptions...what you describe sounds pretty much like the world today tbh. You are completely contradicting yourself in the last sentence, because that is exactly what happens to the US.

I said that we are not yet ready for this, but it is also an inevitability. Cultures and languages are already breaking down, globalization will lead to this.

I am not pro-american, I am pro-america that existed in the late 19th century, were the civil society was free from government intervention to build their own futures as they like. I think Washington with less power and back to state-level solutions will bring US back to be something both you and I would be happy with, a non-militaristic US that is more difficult to be controlled by big interests.

Anyway, I can sometimes be worried by the vacuum such a more isolated US would leave in the world, there is always some meaner wolf to come and eat all the sheep when the big bear goes to sleep.

__________________All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.

Tbh, USA set an example for that long time ago, they also don't care/ignore whatever they choose to, and nobody has power over them. Good/bad guys concept is also long gone

Sure thing. USA will go down from their previous position as superpower. I guess some people will be happy about that thinking China is a more kind ruler and a better "world police". Many people rooted for the Soviets and communism during the cold war too.

Truth is we don't know what would happen with another "winner". US, EU has done quite well the past decades. Things have been fairly stable for some time.

I think it's more potential for things to become more unpredictable and heat up, especially during the transition period when US budget cuts forces them to withdraw much of the international commitments (not just military ones) and China and India still have so much growing pains from fast economic growth and aren't ready to take up the badge as new "sheriff in town". EU will also be crippled by all the fail countries (Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal etc) and be forced to clean up their own house.

I have a positive outlook towards the world, but when people steal YOUR bike, its hard to be so positive >:[.

Honestly though I'd say certain parts of the world are doing alright. I feel U.S will go up. While Middle East may simmer down, the less the U.S is involved. Europe will continue to be in a down ward spiral as well, until they can figure out their exports vs imports as well as maybe excommunicating Greece for a while , seriously though, someone with a phd in economics needs to run Greece.

I believe the Israel/Palestinian conflict will still see bloodshed and violence, till both sides can have two new liberal progressive leaders willing to put aside religious differences and actually TALK in a civilized setting. Camp David 2001 was SHIT, so one-sided and not well organized. Something of this matter needs to be done again to maybe achieve peace.

its almost impossible to find reasonable priced clothes not made in some asian sweat shop

almost everyone is so ignorant about it- some 4 year old chid working 18 hour days for 10p to make a pair of nike that sells for $100 and people pay it like the sheep that they are

-

im trying to eat free range food as much as possible- and trying to buy clothes made in england- im doing this so that all the money i make can go back into the british economy and that british businesses can make some money too- its way tougher than it needs to be

i honestly think if i have children they wont live to old age because america will cause a world war to keep its empire and stop china from rivaling them

theres not a damn thing i can do to stop it- i think the book of revelation in the bible is coming true

__________________God is Love. To know Love is to know God. So ask yourself if you hold any hate for another in your heart how can you have room for Love, room for God

It is estimated that 20% of the population of Mauritania is enslaved. Slaves are often given as wedding gifts. But wait, it is because of the interpretation of Shariah law by the Muslim clerics that slavery flourishes..
Therefore it is a religious thing and we must respect that.
And more, a Mauritanian sheikh is Vice President of the UN Human Rights Council. So slavery must be a human right, right?

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Sure thing. USA will go down from their previous position as superpower. I guess some people will be happy about that thinking China is a more kind ruler and a better "world police". Many people rooted for the Soviets and communism during the cold war too.

Is China even interested to police the world? However they are rich/powerful, I find that pretty hard to imagine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buddyholly

It is estimated that 20% of the population of Mauritania is enslaved. Slaves are often given as wedding gifts. But wait, it is because of the interpretation of Shariah law by the Muslim clerics that slavery flourishes..
Therefore it is a religious thing and we must respect that.
And more, a Mauritanian sheikh is Vice President of the UN Human Rights Council. So slavery must be a human right, right?

What do you propose? After the recent revolution, some of the countries seem to be even bigger mess than before.

__________________“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”

Is China even interested to police the world? However they are rich/powerful, I find that pretty hard to imagine.

It's not ancient China that long ago was the most powerful empire in the world but isolated themselves and got passed many times over by the West. This is a new deal. A new capitalist China in a global economy.

Just like US worked hard to secure oil and other raw materials and also build a "shield" to protect themselves (using economic and military allies against their rivals) so will China. They'd be fools not to. It secures their own future and their own homeland if everyone is dependant on them.

It's not ancient China that long ago was the most powerful empire in the world but isolated themselves and got passed many times over by the West. This is a new deal. A new capitalist China in a global economy.

Just like US worked hard to secure oil and other raw materials and also build a "shield" to protect themselves (using economic and military allies against their rivals) so will China. They'd be fools not to. It secures their own future and their own homeland if everyone is dependant on them.

The rights for women are slowly improving and equality overall is going in the right direction I think.

But is the world getting better? Hardly. I spoke to my grandfather a while ago. He said the biggest difference now and when he was young, is that back then they had hope. They had solidarity, they were going to build a better world post WW2, a safer world. They felt they had a purpose. But these days, young people think about nothing but themselves and their selfish ambitions. The egoism world wide is as big as ever if not growing. Also I see some in this thread think religion is a threat and treating people as slaves etc is of course messed up. But if you want to look at it that way, atheism gives people neither hope nor purpose either.

The human population is exploding but not the economy nor the environment can handle it. The world is slowly falling.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paolo Pinkel

These are the moments when you look in Rafito's brown eyes you see the child in him that only wants to be a fisherman in Mallorca. Or maybe a gigolo for English tourists.

The rights for women are slowly improving and equality overall is going in the right direction I think.

But is the world getting better? Hardly. I spoke to my grandfather a while ago. He said the biggest difference now and when he was young, is that back then they had hope. They had solidarity, they were going to build a better world post WW2, a safer world. They felt they had a purpose. But these days, young people think about nothing but themselves and their selfish ambitions. The egoism world wide is as big as ever if not growing. Also I see some in this thread think religion is a threat and treating people as slaves etc is of course messed up. But if you want to look at it that way, atheism gives people neither hope nor purpose either.

The human population is exploding but not the economy nor the environment can handle it. The world is slowly falling.

That sort of raises a different question: are people getting better, kinder, etc? And it's hard to say again, because in a way you can say that people are getting colder and more distant, also more and more egoist each day. But on the other hand, people are less racist, less homophobic, accept difference much better.