Absolutely. I always like to start off by finding out a little
bit about how you discovered gravel, where you're coming more from
the mountain or road side.

Well, I guess like going way, way back, you know, my, my
background is I'm a pro mountain biker for three years before
transitioning over to the road, but it was, I'd say honestly like
my past and gravel came from, came from the skinny tires and it was
just being out of my training rides like I grew up in San Louis
Obispo where there's just some really killer dirt road to ride
gravel roads, you know, in the midst of a road ride. And so I'd hit
some of those than I lived in San Diego and you know, same, same
idea again, you just like stuff like va Haas grade and Boulder
Creek road. Some of those, you know, travel sections that did just
complete a really cool road ride. So I'd say that was like the
first kind of my entry into it, but then, you know, when I quit
racing professionally is when I got head over heels into
gravel.

And when was that?

So my last pro race was US Pro road race 2010 in September. So
then I'm kind of hung it up, wasn't sure how much I was really
going to ride a bike anymore and took a job as the editor of road
bike action magazine. Um, and then it was literally like within a
year that kind of did like the first Belgian waffle ride. And that
really was like, whoa. That was, that would, I would say that was
probably my path into grab walks. That would be the first event
that I actually ran different equipment on a road bike than I
normally would have to ride. And Yeah. And then it was like, it was
all about gravel after that.

What kind of equipment changes could you make at that point?
Back in 2010 if you can remember?

Yeah. So, you know, forget what bike I rode in for the first few
are. So, so the first Bwr I guess would have been 20, 2012 maybe.
And that was a, just go in with a road bike and putting, putting
essentially just 20 ac tires on it. I'm lowering the pressure a
little bit. Um, but even, even then you were only. No, you didn't
even have a wide selection of really good tubeless tire, so you
know, it was running like a Grand Prix, you know, continental Grand
Prix, 3004 seasons. So just a really tough all around tire. Um, so
yeah, it was really just is really just wider tires was about it.
Um, and then my first real entry into, you know, what we'd really
categorize gravel as now would have been crushed the [inaudible]
I'm out in Utah and it's my good friend, teammate on the road,
Birch swindlehurst put on that event and you know, it really worked
out that, you know, while I was working I was at road bike
action.

We wanted to do a project like, and there are some small, you
know, independent builders that were just getting into gravel. I
mean you couldn't go out and buy a gravel bike for mania that big
brands like term didn't even really exist yet. So I went to Kathy
and had them build a custom dragon fly road frame with um, what,
what we call a just like adventure geometry. And that allowed me to
run up to a 35 tire and disc brakes. And so I was like my first
true gravel bike and it was seeing was pretty amazing when you
think about it, like going back to 2012.

Yeah, that's, that's pretty amazing. You often hear a lot of
people from the road side of the sport reference crusher and
Natasha and Bwr and I think part of it, his crusher with Brent.
It's brand right? Who organizes it?

A Burke Burke,

sorry. With Burke's road background. I think he naturally drew
in a lot of his friends who were looking for an adventure. And that
adventure then started to become known to other riders and athletes
who were like, hell yeah, I want to give that a try.

Yeah, I'd say that's a good way to phrase it. Say both, like Bwr
in crusher really pushed kind of that race and maybe crusher
doesn't do it as much now, but early on it was. It was really about
the race and it was one of the only gravel events that actually has
a price person. They still do. And you know, the winter both male
and female and get a thousand dollars for the win and, and Bwr very
much same way even though there isn't a, you know, a cash purse.
I'm Michael Marks, you know, the event founder like he, he really
comes from that road scene and it's that kind of that so cal race
mentality and that's, you know, that's really, I think what's built
up the hype around event was kind of the roadside and coming in and
pushing the limits of what you can do on a road bike.

Yeah. And I've heard Michael defend very aggressively against it
being called the gravel grinder or gravel race. You really wanted
to have, you know, that road orientation, like a Belgian classic,
which I think is interesting because as we noted it's, it is
exciting and the amount of dirt in that particular races small
enough that in a roadies are coming out and riding it hard and just
taken their lumps in the dirt and discovering that the dirt part
was actually quite fun.

Yeah. No. And it's true. And I mean the first year of that event
and the first couple of years like you just didn't, you know,
there, there's still the range now, like if you went to the Bwr
this year, like the range of equipment is, is mindblowing out
there. You have someone you know from a road bike with 25 see tires
all the way to the guy with, you know, a gravel bike, six wheels
and two point one and mountain bike tires. But early on like those,
those extra, you know, the extreme of the six slash 50 b and then
all the gravel options and tire sizes, all that. Stuff like that
really didn't exist. Then. Like that's really just been within the
last handful of years that we have so much equipment available to
us.

Yeah, it's true. I imagine, and I've heard others refer to this
back in the early days of crusher that you'd see all kinds of bikes
show up there from mountain bikes to modified cross bikes to
straight up road bikes with the fattest tires they can handle on
it.

Yeah, I mean I think, you know, my setup the first year I did it
in 2012 on that calfee, like I, I went, I essentially had no budget
because I could call up these companies and tell them what I was
doing and this would be a big feature in the magazine. So getting
the equipment was, was easy and so I had the best stuff I could, I
could pick, but I was still very much limited. Like I ran, I envy
the cross Pepsi Mountain bike wheels in tubular because clinchers
at that time were, the wheels were support so heavy and the tire
options were so limited as well. I mean you only had only had
cyclocross tires and with the UCI limit of cyclocross tire being 33
cm in width, there just weren't high volume tires available. Um, so
I was out there tubulars, now I look back and it's like kind of
comedy, you know, because we have such a myriad of, of tire ranges,
every brand basically in tubeless option or tubeless ready options.
So you know, it's a good. Anyone getting into the segment of the
sport now is like, you know, good for you because you have so much
equipment available at prices that are, that are pretty economic
now.

Yeah. The the riders who started out early on, we were more a
controlled by constraints in the industry, so we were just picking
things that were incrementally bigger or better than where we were
able to ride previously and now to your point, there's just been an
explosion and the gravel bike, it's such a broad definition and I
think manufacturers are approaching it from so many different
perspectives. You definitely see on the more road side
manufacturers just allowing for larger tires to give a little bit
more freedom and potentially make them accessible for light gravel
use and then on the opposite end of the spectrum, you've got
companies that are coming from more of a bike packing perspective
that are building these burly monster cross off road machines with
drop bars that are totally different ends of the spectrum and it's
really fascinating. I think for a lot of my listeners who are just
getting into the sport, try to figure out where in that spectrum
does it make sense to place their ownership?

Yeah, I think that that's true. And it, you know, to your point,
it's great that all these options exist, but also for the consumer,
the person just getting into the scene, they know it can be a
little bit overwhelming because there is such a range in bikes. All
kind of categorized is gravel or adventure bikes. And so like if
you're coming in and you know like where, what side you air on like
extreme or kind of the, you know, the road bike with just a little
more clearance that can take us 33 c or something like that. So,
you know, I think with those options it's like consumer education
is a big part of it. So podcasts like this are just a great, a
great tool for people getting into it.

Yeah, I agree that it's, it's totally confusing for consumers
getting in once they really peel the onion around gravel and try to
grab a bunch of resources to try to figure out what does this brand
manufacturer, what's the approach, what will this bike enable me to
do is a ton of thought that goes into it. I know that was my
personal journey. I ended up getting a commuter bike that was
enabled me to have dyspraxia and you know, it's fairly wide, 700
see tires and the moment I started riding off road in Marine County
I just started to think that fatter would be better and ultimately
ended up with something that could take 6:50, b one nine tires and
I pretty much ride big fat tires all the time at this point.

Yeah, I'm kind kinda right there with. I used to early on like
I'd go out to Rebecca is private Idaho or something on the run, you
know like the 33 see specialized trigger because I thought it would
be so much faster than a 35 or something. And now, you know, as
I've, as I've written more groundwater than more events, I've seen
like some of the test data coming out from some of these companies,
it's like air pressure's going down, tire volume is going up, rim
volume is going up, all these things improve the rhymes so much. So
now I'm like, I don't really have a reason to go smaller than like
a 40 c with a 700 seat. We'll, um, unless I was doing like maybe
grab a world and I was really looking for the most efficient setup
possible. I could go narrower because I mean those, those roads,
like I grabbed the world which is in Lincoln, Nebraska, they're
there gravel. But it's such a hard pack. The link, you know, like
the tire lane, um, might as well be pavement.

I know you've worked a lot with envy over your career and you
mentioned that you see a trend for rims going lighter. Can you get
into that a little bit more for us?

Yeah. So I, you know, there's, there's a number of, you know,
head was one of the first ones really that got into the wide rim
trend with some of their, um, road wheels and then envy has been
right there with them kind of pushing that. And this year envy came
out with their g 23, there are specific gravel we'll um, which as a
23 millimeter internal and it's easy to get caught up on just
thinking like, okay, wider, wider is better. But, so the, like the
[inaudible] three is, is kind of designed after the m five, two
five, which is the cross country mountain bike rim, but the
[inaudible] three is two millimeters narrower. And so that's really
just to go with a 35 to 40, 40 to see tire, kind of that range that
they're running. So it's not always just about wider is better at
it, you know, how it works. And with the tire size,

what is the benefit of that width to the rider?

Um, it has, it has multiple benefits. One is just, again,
overall overall volume is you're opening up. If you're increasing
the volume, um, you know, you have more pinch flat protection, um,
you can decrease the pressure, um, you know, without, if you
decrease the pressure to have a nice ride on a narrower rim, the
opportunity, it's easier to get a pinch flats. Um, so yeah, I would
say that that's the biggest one of the biggest improvements.

And does that end up translating into something different with
the tires you're running when you're running a little bit less
pressure and you kind of get maybe a flatter footprint. Is it
changing the way tire manufacturers are looking at what they're
producing

and tire manufacturers are definitely looking at it, but I'd say
more so on, on the road side. So you see some of these, um, with
like say the new cannondale aerobic stitches came out, it comes
with a 25 c tire, which you would think, you know, maybe it's not
that wide, but you look at the rim that it's on. All of the sudden,
like he measured, it's probably like a 28 or 29 millimeter wide
tire on the super wider rims that are coming stock on the bike so
that all that all comes into the play and that, um, it all counts
as overall overall air volume. You have to factor in the rim and
the tire it. I'm kind of an interesting thing that envy did on
their website is they put together a tire tire pressure chart and
it factors in right away rim width. So it's not just and be
specific, you can figure out, you know, what your, your inner rim
width is on brand x. we'll you can go in and look at, see what they
suggest, like whoa. A highlight, high range and low range for tire
pressure. It's a pretty handy guy. Um, that I think will surprise
people on kind of how low they recommend on, on some of the
setups.

Yeah. I think that's common with a lot of people I talked to you
is that they've found that they've just gotten lower and lower on
the pressure because they're not getting any negative consequences
to that. I've been learning a little bit more about what you were
talking about around tire width relative to rim width and how you
know the measurement of the tires are. We can't just do chronically
think of these millimeters anymore because with a wider rim it's
going to fat now to a little bit and it's gonna feel like a bigger
tire then maybe you think you've specked on your bike.

Yeah, exactly. You really have to kind of look at it as it as a
system, right? Rather than just the individual than just a rim or
the tire. It's like both combined because that's. That's what
you're writing, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

In the right direction, that's for sure.

Yeah. Yeah, and it overwhelmingly seems like to a degree fatter
and wider or better. Obviously we'll find the outer bound of that
statement, but I always encourage everybody is listening to go to
go fatter than they think they should go initially because I rarely
hear of anybody complaining about that choice.

Yeah, for sure. And the the, you know, the only thing you have
to keep in mind is as that air volume increases, you need to. You
need to decrease the pressure. That's kind of the, you know, the
fine point in at all. If you, if you're running a 35 see tire on on
a rim and you put a 40 on the same rim and you run it at the same
pressure, it's going to feel like the pressure is increased. So
bring, bring that pressure down as you go bigger and you'll be very
happy.

Right. Well, it's been interesting talking about the evolution
of the equipment and with you. I know coming from a mountain bike
background, you're maybe more open to a lot of the trends and
innovations that have come into the gravel market. I'm particularly
curious to talk to you about the dao fork as we've had benedict on
the show. If you episodes ago, and it was really fascinating
conversation, so I'd love to get your take on writing that Lao fork
on your bike and what you see the advantages are and if you think
more and more people are going to start going down that route.

Yeah. The amount of, uh, questions I get about that fork are,
it's incredible. So three years ago at dirty Kanza, I used one of
the, one of the Lao grit forks, I put it on an open and didn't
really get to ride it much before the race, but then just
absolutely loved it in the race itself. Um, and then I had an
opportunity this year to ride the truth, the true grit, so the
frame and fork that they build, um, and couldn't be happier. It's a
to 30 millimeter, you know, amount of travel using just the carbon
leaf springs and you know, it. I first went in and thinking like,
okay, this is really going to just kill it on the washboard chatter
stuff. And it does. If it improves that for sure. But where I was
really surprised was when I'm getting into a little more extreme
terrain and like big rain roads going sideways and you're hitting
those things. Then normally with a rigid fork you kind of hit, you
know, hit that, hit a ring, right, going sideways and your wheel
front wheel wants to deflect and go sideways. But with that fork
it's just enough to keep your front end pointed the right
direction. And I feel that it actually gives me not only night ride
a little bit faster, but I have more control. So I'll take, I'll
take better control. Went on some sketchy, sketchy gravel road
descent.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, did you find that over the longer
events that you were less fatigued using the fork?

Yeah, I, I, I would have to say so it's like all those, you
know, the, the micro vibration that we deal with over the course
of, even if it's, you know, a 100 mile ride, but especially as you
start stretching out when you're on the bike all day long, like
just reducing that in your shoulders, your neck. Um, all of that.
It really, you know, I think in an event like dirty Kanza, you
don't really find out your weak links until you're in something
like that. It just really stretches you and this year at decay like
I, you know, I should do upper body workouts and stuff like that,
but I don't. I'm lazy and you know, it, it's pretty amazing. Like
how well my upper body held up and I really do attribute it a lot
too just to that front end.

Right now you and I were both down in big bear at the spandex
stampede event, which had a decent amount of climbing for the
mileage. Yeah. How do you feel about the fork when climbing,
obviously it adds about a pound of weight to the bike. Do you feel
like the advantages overall kind of outweigh that weight?

Yeah, I think so. Especially especially on gravel. I'm just, you
know, the advantages I just was talking about, I mean my bike is
still only like 17 and a half or 18 pounds and so that, that seems
plenty of light to me. Um, and for, you know, I do most of my
climbing, seated, climbing so I have no idea that that work is
even, they're going up hill, you know, you're not getting any
bobbing out of it if, you know, if you stand up a lot and maybe you
don't have like really good form and you're kind of bouncing on the
friend, like I could see that bothering you a little bit, but I
think you've kind of work on your, if you felt that you kind of
work on your form and you actually improve your climbing form, just
by realizing if you're bouncing, you know, if you're bouncing
around and wasting energy.

Yeah, that makes sense. What about for our listener who rides a
little bit more on the road in their gravel bike journeys? How, how
does the fork feel on the road and you know, is it, is it really
for someone who is writing mostly off road?

I would say like if you're, if you're predominantly on the road,
you know, there's just the benefits of it obviously diminish. Um,
but you know, I raised it Belgian waffle ride this year and is a
first time I'd ever actually written a bike other than a
traditional road bike. And I on it, I really thought like I would
give up, I'd really be given stuff up on some of the climbing, some
of the rope climbing parts in the group and I was astonished. It
was a great setup. I ran 30 see tires on it and the bike was so
capable, like anytime we hit the dirt it was just like, I felt like
I was at such an advantage.

That's really interesting. That's really good feedback. I think.
I'm glad to hear that. I do think, and I've mentioned this before
on the podcast that to a degree gravel sort of aligns itself with
road biking than mountain biking. And as such we've got this sort
of preconceived notion as to what the bike should look like and how
we should dress, et cetera. And I think the leading edge companies
are trying to blow that away and really make people think about,
well, how does the bike perform? Let's forget about the heritage of
maybe why this sector of the sport started to evolve and I think
the law fork is a prime example of that, that it probably is faster
and a lot of respects for a lot of the terrain that people are
riding and definitely racing on, but there's a little bit of
resistance to people grabbing hold of it and putting on their
bikes.

Yeah, I agree. I mean the road, the road side, you know,
traditional bunch for sure. Um, you know, you look at how long it's
taken, you know, just for disc brake acceptance, um, that's kind of
a shame because guess what, so many people can benefit greatly from
disc brakes even if those people aren't. The pros like that
shouldn't matter. Um, so yeah, I would say, you know, mountain
bikers and even track athletes like triathletes or read their apt
to try anything that they think is going to improve performance.
Like they'll, they'll give anything a go. So it is cool to see like
the gravel niche and like people not afraid to just, you know, try
new things and even just like the spandex event like you were
talking about in big bear, like I saw a number of labs out there
and I, I think that there's going to be more and more, you know,
they're gonna keep selling those bikes just as the word gets out.
What, what an advantage it is.

Yeah, definitely. And I mean obviously we've seen a couple of
other fork manufacturers dip their toe in the water and I think
life is going to lead the way, but others will follow.

Yeah. Now, uh, now they just need a good proper post with
suspension. It will be sad.

I was just going to move onto dropper posts because it's been
something that's come up a few times on the podcast and I, I'm, I'm
curious about it for sure. You're definitely gonna see one on my
bike in the coming months as I test it out and try to understand
its affects more.

Yeah. I have yet to use the dropper posts on and gravel bike.
And, and to be honest, I probably only use the dropper post on a
mountain bike a couple of times, so it's kind of new. It's new
territory for me, but I, you know what, like I'm totally open for,
for running one because I liked, I liked to do like some true
mountain biking, all my gravel bike. I think it's, it's really fun.
And you know, a dropper posts would be an advantage in situations.
Like I tell people like I can get a rush, I can get an adrenaline
rush, all my gravel bike in dirt going 15 miles an hour, 20 miles
an hour. And if I wash out in a wreck, you know, doing something
technical, I'm probably not going to get hurt to get an adrenaline
rush on the road bike. I have to be going really fast when things
go wrong. Like it really hurts if I can, if I can push the limits
on the gravel bike, like that's, that's totally fine. I'm probably
going to walk away if things go wrong.

Yeah, exactly. I keep keep messaging the guys over at thesis
spike who are specking a bike with a dropper post or at least as an
option and I'm always saying like, oh, I just wrote this really
steep terrain on my bike and I could definitely use the dropper
post and Randall, the designer over there. I will always come back
to me saying, yeah, you'd love it there, but trust me, it wouldn't
just be there. It'll be when you're descending on the road when
you're doing lots of things that you wouldn't think of. When you
finally have one on your bike. You'll discover that your speed and
safety can both go up and it's. I'm really curious to test that
hypothesis.

Yeah, that's. That's a good idea. Someone it afford dirty cans
and kind of. When we already knew that the aero bars, we're going
to be a big deal this year at some of these events and someone was
trying to figure out how they could make a dropper post where there
was just maybe a centimeter of difference so that when they're in
the aero bars and up on the nose of the saddle, they could use the
post to go off a centimeter and then when they're out of the, out
of the aero bars and you know, just on the hoods are the top how
they could use the dropper to go down to the centimeter. So I think
we're gonna see there's gonna be a lot more kind of going on in
this world, you know, tech advantages, some for just having fun
like a dropper post. And then like still race geeks that are like
looking to get every, you know, be able to get a little bit faster.
It's, it's fun because, you know, it's like mountain biking in the
early nineties, you know, we're just, everyone's just throwing
stuff out there and we'll see what sticks.

Yeah. Yeah. It's great. And I want to transition a little bit
away from equipment and just talk about racing and the community
and the events. And that's a great segue because I think both you
and I share this vision of gravel as it is now as being similar
mountain biking back then where, you know, you still saw people
camping before the race. It was always a festival atmosphere. So
talk a little bit about that and maybe some of the events that
you've done and how community is playing a role in, in gravel and
how you're enjoying it personally.

Yeah. So I mean honestly it, it takes me back to when I first
got into mountain biking when I was 14 and you know, I'd go to the
races with my dad and we got an rv just to go to the races and camp
out because all of our friends did that too. So we'd be at
Keysville classic, you know, the night before the race at the
bonfire and all the vehicles circled around. Same with camping out
there for a week. And then, you know, when I transitioned into the
road and did the pro racing thing, like there was, there was none
of that like you had no, there just wasn't. There just wasn't
really a community. You went out and you did your job, you know,
that was great who hopefully you have a good race if not you move
onto the next one. But with gravel now it really takes me back to
when I first fell in love with bikes and you know, that was that
community part of it and being out there and you make a full
weekend out of it, then you're just hanging out with people like
that's such a huge draw of it.

And I think that's something, you know, as mountain biking has
declined and you know, people got into road racing. That's really
been a, a big, you know, kind of big missing piece or cycling. Um,
now we, now we have it again and there's so many. There's like
events like grinder or where it isn't just a one day ride, it's a
full weekend event and Grapes of Wrath which is put on by the guys
that put on a rock cobbler. Again, a full weekend event where is
not just encouraged, you know, for you to be there the whole
weekend. It's kind of mandatory is what is what it's all about. So
I, you know, I hope that there's more and more events like that and
you know, Rebecca's prime died but which is coming up, you know,
Labor Day weekend. That's, that's a perfect example again of being
out there and Rebecca has created just like this community of
people to go experience her favorite writing and guess what, it's
turned out that like people want that because these events that
have just been nothing but growth.

Yeah. I think today's gravel athletes are looking for new
terrain. They're looking for all the community and you know, post
race barbecues and camping that you're describing. And to me it is
like my experience with mountain biking as well. I remember signing
up for mountain bike events primarily because I knew someone had
taken the time to create a course in a different part of the
country that I could get to and I'd get to go experience some new
terrain without overthinking the navigation piece of it.

Yeah, no, it's true. And I think even better with what's fun
with gravel and you know, I hope we don't start seeing like a lot
like mountain biking where you do like four laps or something like
that. I, I see gravel is like this exploration and this adventure,
so going out and doing one big ass flap, whether it's 80 miles or
200 miles, whatever it is, 50 miles, as long as you're seeing
something really cool and you're getting to experience whatever
this area is and what's special and unique to the area. I'm,
that's, that's really, those are the events that really intrigued
me and it turns out like you can be in Nebraska or Kansas or
bakersfield and on the dirt bike there is so much cool stuff to see
out there. Like on the road road, the road surface, you can ride
through some great areas, but road surface never changes and I
think with gravel, the gravel events, you know, one of the, one of
the key things is that you really never know what you're getting in
each area with the type of terrain you're gonna get. And that's
just a whole different. Just a whole different element that makes
you have to stay really checked in and engaged with what you're
doing and very much in the moment.

Yeah, totally agree. And for the middle of the pack guys such as
myself, just finding those different areas to ride in and the
unique adventure of being all over the map. Like I was down at the
old growth classic this weekend down by Santa Cruz and I hiked on
some of that terrain and written some of the legal stuff, but I'd
never kind of created this massive loop. So there was times I had
no idea where I was, but it just kept plugging away and enjoy the
fact that I was just discovering this terrain in a different way
and give big props to that course designer because you just created
a hard loop that, that tested the equipment across the board,
depending on which end of the spectrum you are on. If you had the
big fat tires or narrow tires, there are parts of the course that
we're going to suit either or. But no one left that course thinking
I had the right equipment for every single pedal stroke, which I
think is the hallmark of great gravel course design.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's, it's, it's pretty fun to like be
underbite not all the time but like be in situations where you're
like, ah yeah, I, you know, yeah, a mountain bike would be good
here. But as a whole, looking at it as the entire course as a whole
course, like you know, often the gravel bike is, is the ideal setup
and that, you know, the old growth classic like Dallas, like that
looks like a special event that they put together and that area has
like, you know, you have the grasshopper adventure series up there
and like they're. So there's so many great, like Kinda grassroots
style events to choose from.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm stoked to see how it's grown all over the
country really. I keep hearing about new events thinking, oh I want
to go down and do that. And I was stoked that I would just happen
stance took me down to southern California and as able to do that
big bear event because previously the only other one I'd done was
gravel mob, which I totally love.

Yeah. Yeah. Gravel. Mom's a great one in. Oh, hi there. And
unfortunately like all of that, all those mountains burned, you
know, this past this past year. So hopefully they, hopefully
they're still able to put on the event, you know, and it, it won't
be maybe quite as beautiful, but that just, that whole area is, is
really spectacular up above Ohio.

Yeah. I just actually got an email alert from the guys at
Peloton magazine and it's definitely on.

Oh good. Then yeah, that's, that's great to hear. They do a good
job with it. I've done it a couple times and it's so hard day in
the saddle, that's for sure.

Yeah, it's another fun one. Soup to nuts I think.

Yeah. Yeah. And then like, you know, as, as you're talking about
you finish up, give high fives, grab a beer, grab Tacos, everyone's
hanging out for hours afterward, Sharon stories and no one is eager
to get out of there. Um, so pretty special vibe.

Absolutely. So I'm curious as someone who's raced a lot of these
events, at least kind of on the west coast, the events are going a
couple of different directions. You Got Short, fast, punchy events
and then you've got other events exploring kind of the ultra
distance side of the sport. Like with the Dk xl this year, what's
your reaction to, to what's going on in terms of the length of
course race, the race is, etc.

I, I really liked that. There's so many optIons now. The
basically, you know, lIke dirty kanza scares the crap out of me and
so that makes me want to train and be able to like be as prepared
as possible just to get through it, but I don't want, I don't want
that feeling more than once or twice a year. So then to have
opportunities for something like spandex stampede where it's 40 to
45 miles and you can be done in two and a half, three hours and
then just kind of hanging out. I Think those are like, that's kind
of how I like to do it. Like mixing stuff like spandex, um, rock
cobbler. I think it's really cool that all of the sudden we have
opportunity to kind of pick and choose. Whereas five years ago it
was like, whoa, what do you know? There's a gravel event in
California.

Cool, let's go do it. Now we have, you know, probably 20 good
choices, you know, over the course of the summer. Um, so they, they
all kind of, they all speak to me in different ways and you know, I
probably am not going to be signing up for dk xl anytime soon. I
think, you know, I've told jim come into the promoter like 200 and
you know, the course is actually 207 miles for the, for the normal
dk. That's more than enough for me. So I think I kind of tapped out
at that 200 mile distance personally.

Yeah. I don't blame you at all. I think 200 is a monster effort,
one of which full disclosure, I've never done an in any
circumstances you're adding 200 miles. So anybody who crosses that
finish line I think is amazing. I do think on the xcel side is
going to be interesting because the quote unquote racers that you
hear about it, it's a different type of character that's going to
want to do those, that type of mileage. I mean you're kind of
getting into tour divide territory more than kind of one day bike
race territory.

Yeah, it's really interesting. And just to see like who is
successful out there? Like Rebecca Rush, you know, she, I think
ended up for overall out of men and women and you know, just
dominated the women's field. Whereas she was up against a couple
women that maybe in the 200 mile distance at this point could have
eat rebecca. So it's just as, as you stretch the mile out, almost
double the amount of miles, like the different types of athletes
emerge that, you Know, seems crazy to say 200 miles is too short
for them. But it's kinda kinda how it is.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean it goes back to my
original arrival in gravel. I credit more towards the notion of
bike packing, then gravel itself. I just sort of became fascinated
in those overnight and multi day and month long races that people
were doing and started following them and looking at the equipment.
And that got me thinking just a lot more about adventure in my
writing and something that was sorely needed in my life as a
cyclist at that moment in time. And I kind of got drawn in and I'd
never done any of those bike packing races. But that's what got my
toe in the water and started becoming so passionate about gravel
riding in general.

Yeah, that's, that's cool. So interestingly enough, I, like I
would say I started on the other side of the spectrum. My, it was
the racing side that brought me into it and you know, I wanted to
go, I want to do, you know, when belgian waffle ride and, and when
crusher and the tuscher and I wanted to win dirty kanza and it took
me, took me a few years to, you know, of course I would still love
to go when dirty kanza that's just not reality now. But I would say
early on it was, that was kind of my main. That was my biggest goal
and my first dirty kanza ever. I went into it and I was so
incredibly fit. Just basically did pro mile leading up to it and
really wanted to win it and had my rear derailleur break off 25
miles in. and it was like at that moment I was like, okay, well I'm
not racing races over how can I finish?

And I was on the side of the road for an hour, rigging up a
single speed and did the next 175 miles on a single speed and was
able to finish. And the real kind of eyeopening experience was
riding with the people I was around, which were mid to back of the
pack typewriters. Um, because I was really limited on how fast I
could go because of my, my gear ratio and the people out there were
like. So I went into it thinking, okay, I just want to dominate. I
want to win this thing. And these other people, it was such, such a
different task for them. They were, they were literally just trying
to survive to get through it. And really from then on really
changed my thinking and going, you know, going to these events and
look at the bigger picture. and it's not just about racing and
trying to go fast, it's, it's such a marginal part of the day. And
so I always try and remind myself and I, you know, I, I can't win
many races anymore, but still like that, that's an experience that
like just really remains with me and I'm really fortunate. I feel
fortunate for having that happened to me because it, it really just
opened my eyes to everything around me.

Yeah. I imagine it really shaped your professional perspective
in working with brands at this point that just to have that
visceral understanding of like, hey, these guys, they don't really
care if someone passes them. They don't really care if they pass
anybody else. They're just really. they're out there for the
adventure. And the adventure includes everything between the start
line and the finish line.

Yep. And, and they're the real, like they're the ones that need
to be celebrated at 1:00 AM, you know, a dirty cans or any event
like that. That's kind of, you know, the mid back, the people,
they're working way harder. They have such such a harder day than
the people that are finishing in the top three, top 10. They are
what they go through out there just to will themselves to the
finish of some of these big long events. It's really inspiring.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. totally agree wIth you and I
think those sentiments are really wide. There's such a huge
opportunity for the industry with the sport of gravel because we
can really. the event organizers continue to create the community
atmosphere and the great adventure courses. I think people come in
and will continue to come into the sport and discover that it is
really this gem that is right there at their fingertips and right
outside a lot of people's doors are these back roads and dirt roads
that can show them parts of their community that they never even
imagined before.

Yeah. It's just. It's just fun. Like for me, It's brought to
open the door. Even though I've lived in the same area for eight
years. when I go out on the gravel bike, it's like I have all new
rides available to me and I don't want to get like negative and
talk about cars and drivers, but when I'm, when I'm on a dirt road
or a trail somewhere, I don't have to worry about anything going on
around me. I can just focus on my ride and enjoying and kind of let
my, you know, a little bit of peace of mind and you know, if I'm
going out in the middle of the day for a lunch ride, that kinda
decompressor it's great. Just going in and hitting dirk. I don't
have anything else to think about.

Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of peace to be had out there on
the gravel trails. So neil, this has been a great conversation. I
really appreciate all the time and your perspective on the sport
and your continued commitment to growing it.

Yeah, it's, as I told you before, I, I can talk about driving
all day, so it's really fun. It's, you know, the scene is brought
me, kind of renewed, my passion for writing, so it's great to be on
the podcast. Thank you.

Yeah, you're welcome. ThankS for coming in. All right man. That
was great. I think we've got some good material.

Good deal. Yeah. Well thanks again for thinking of me. I'm
stoked to, uh, to be a part of this.

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About the Podcast

The Gravel Ride is a cycling podcast where we discuss the people, places and products that define modern gravel cycling. We will be interviewing athletes, course designers and product designers who are influencing the sport. We will be providing information on where to ride, what to ride and how to stay stoked on gravel riding.