Posted - 03/27/2007 : 21:50:17 Ok so Alexander Oveckin had an outstanding rookie year in the NHL. The 05-06 Calder trophie winner had 52 goals and 54 helpers for a combined 106 points in 81 regular season games. With that, he also had 425 shots on net and was a +2 on the year. This year, with only a handful of games left he has 43 goals and 43 assists, 86 points in 76 games. He has 366 shots on net and is a horrible -20. I do not want people to get me wrong here. 86 pts in 76 games is still top of the leauge and is very impressive. It just seems to me that last season he basically stole the spotlight from Crosby with all the fancy goals. Where is that Ovechkin this year? I mean I don't even like the guy but even I jumped on the Ovechkin band wagon with all the highlight reel goals. The media made his out to be so amazing. God, they even nicknamed him Alex "the great". Maybe I am reading into this too much because everyone is going to have a slip up year and it is only his second year. But then again, maybe he maxed out in his first year? Maybe like Selanne scoring 76 goals in his first year and then never again in his career type of thing? What does everyone think?

By the way, this is not an attack on Ovechkin or anything like that. I am just wondering what is happening with they guy.

40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)

PuckNuts

Posted - 04/11/2007 : 21:33:43 Some walk and some run, but remember the turtle and the hare, the one with the most points will win...

There are: People that make things happen, people that watch things happen, and people that wonder what happened, who are you...

willus3

Posted - 04/05/2007 : 11:37:52

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Novie, we are arguing the same point.

But great minds think alike.

I agree, he is solid right now, but there have been many, many, many before who are better.

Crosby is the perfect example of the media hyping a player better than he is.

Actually if you do the adjusted numbers for the scoring stats of the two of them it is veeeery close.

ED11

Posted - 04/05/2007 : 08:31:37 So I was watching the Caps/Thrashers tilt last night on TSN and I noticed something. All Ovechkin thinks about is scoring a goal, haha. I mean, not that that is a bad thing or anything like that, but, maybe if he thought about playing a little defense he wouldn't be the worst +/- player on the Capitals roster.

I guess I'm just picking on him a little bit, haha. Everyone does it to Crosby ALL THE TIME about EVERYTHING. So I figured I should even it out a bit between the two.

Beans15

Posted - 03/30/2007 : 07:28:30 Novie, we are arguing the same point.

But great minds think alike.

I agree, he is solid right now, but there have been many, many, many before who are better.

Crosby is the perfect example of the media hyping a player better than he is.

Crosby doing phenomenally is relative as well to this time period. Back in the 80's his 113 points would have been maybe top 10 in the league. Maybe. Between 67 and 07, there have only been 9 Art Ross winners with less than 125 points not including the lock out/strike years.

Crosby is higher than everyone today, but looking at the past, his production isn't all that special.

Beans, I thought you knew better....how many times have we heard the argument about scoring being down since those years? I saw a classic NHL game a few days ago, and Grant Fuhr, Stanley Cup Champion, had like a 5.04 GAA!!!!

I think the only fair way to do this is look at the individual points:team goals ratio. So let me dig up a few

Long story short: I think I just found a great way to compare players from different generations!

Go SensCrosby is GodTucker is a douche

Beans15

Posted - 03/29/2007 : 11:54:21 Crosby doing phenomenally is relative as well to this time period. Back in the 80's his 113 points would have been maybe top 10 in the league. Maybe. Between 67 and 07, there have only been 9 Art Ross winners with less than 125 points not including the lock out/strike years.

Crosby is higher than everyone today, but looking at the past, his production isn't all that special.

BigShow

Posted - 03/29/2007 : 06:48:04 Washington < All.

+/- is pretty terrible for making comparisons outside of a team. Even within a team it can be really bad. For example your best Dmen often end up with middle of the pack or worse +/-, because thay are matched up against the best the other team has offensively. Or if your team is very narrow, and has an amazing first line but a subpar second line, then the 2nd D pair can get brutalized on +/- even if they do a decent job. And as was stated above, you have to subtract the points earned while on the PP before looking at how points and +/- interact.

Comparing Ovie to Crosby is senseless, they are vastly different talents. They might end up with similar point totals some years, but probably not again until they are on roughly equal strength teams, as they were last year. Ovechkin is a much more complete player than Bure or Kovalchuk, perhaps a better comparison would be to Bondra or Jagr; while Sidney (currently) is more like a young Kariya or midcareer Gretzky.

And for the original question

I would have expected Ovie and Crosby both to drop slightly. Both for the same reason. Old guys, that probably thought the same thing they think every year with the hot new rookie - he was playing with boys when he made that reputation, let's see how he does with men. After the old guys witnessed how those two performed last year, they really would have stood up and taken notice. And that would affect Ovechkin more than Crosby, because Washington is so thin.

Novie

Posted - 03/29/2007 : 05:13:13

quote:Originally posted by Mikhailova

quote:Originally posted by Novie

Sorry to change topic a little bit, but I gotta stand up for my boy! Mik, I usualy agree with you, but:

Really realy tired of this whole argument. Are you saying Cheechoo is better than Thornton because he gets more goals? Kurri was better than Gretzky? He gets his points through different means...it doesn't make one player better than another. It makes him a playmaker, where Ovie is a goal scorer.

I wasn't trying to say Ovechkin is better than Crosby because he scores more goals, I mentioned Crosby's mostly-assist points just to add to the argument that perhaps the reason why Ovi's points aren't as high as Crosby's is because Crosby has a good team to help him earn several of his points (on passes or not) whereas on the Caps Ovi does it all himself. I just threw in the part about Malkin having more goals as an example of how good Crosby's surrounding players are...but then again it doesn't do much good in proving that since Malkin gets his points by a different means than Crosby (goals rather than assists), so perhaps I should've left that out.

Good point, though.

Thanks Mik: we're made-up now.

Yes Babs, I vote Washington worst in the league too...at least Philly is building for the future

Go SensCrosby is GodTucker is a douche

ED11

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 20:02:08 Haha. I knew this would happen. Babs, did you read my first post to get this going? I didn't want this happening. I knew that the discussion about him and Crosby would come out but I truely didn't want it to. ALL I SAID, is that I thought that compared to last year he slipped A LITTLE. And that he MIGHT have maxed out the first year like Selanne with his 76 goals and then never again in his career. I even MADE SURE to say that I thought that his 86pts in 76 games is still VERY impressive and at the top of the leauge. So I was not "drilling" him as you put it.

ED11

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 19:56:06

quote:Originally posted by Guest2892

I can't say that I think +/- is a great indicator of a player's success, but I definitely do like to look at it. I mean, all players have an agenda to be a good 2-way player. At least all coaches are looking for players who have that agenda. I cannot say that I agree with this for a player like Ovechkin this early in his career though. Scouts go out and look for players who have the talent up front, and have the potential to be defensive. This way they can draft these players and work on the defensive skills as a secondary. Ovechkin was drafted this way. All the talent up front, but little mindset on the other end of the ice. I think we will see within afew years time a kid whose +/- improves drastically. My guess is it will be something like Kovalchuk's numbers.

Having said that Beans, I definitely agree that the fact he plays on a team that does not possess defensive support is a major determinant in his -18.

Like Kovalchuks numbers? Ok...Kovalchuk is a -62 in his career. How can you say that it is not a huge indicator of how effect a player is on the ice? I agree, Ovechkin does play for a bad team, but, he also has the worst +/- on that team. I think that your statement that "we will see within afew years time a kid whose +/- improves drastically", is wishful thinking. Ovechkin is a one way player because he is a goal scoring machine. Thats what he does. But again I say. So what? You can score 3 goals a game if you want, if you are a -1 at the end of the game then what help were you?

bablaboushka

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 19:53:48 Wow, a guy scores 87 points for the worst team in the NHL (in my opinion) and he gets drilled? Let's stop playing the "relative to Crosby" game and concentrate on the fact that he still averages over a point per game and that he is 2nd to only Dany Heatley for the most goals scored in the last 2 seasons. He has 95 with a few games left and Gretzky had 106 after his first 2 seasons. I say that's pretty damn good.

I think people should stop seeing this as Crosby doing well and Ovechkin doing badly. I like to look at it as Ovechkin doing great and Crosby doing phenomenally.

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 19:12:18 I can't say that I think +/- is a great indicator of a player's success, but I definitely do like to look at it. I mean, all players have an agenda to be a good 2-way player. At least all coaches are looking for players who have that agenda. I cannot say that I agree with this for a player like Ovechkin this early in his career though. Scouts go out and look for players who have the talent up front, and have the potential to be defensive. This way they can draft these players and work on the defensive skills as a secondary. Ovechkin was drafted this way. All the talent up front, but little mindset on the other end of the ice. I think we will see within afew years time a kid whose +/- improves drastically. My guess is it will be something like Kovalchuk's numbers.

Having said that Beans, I definitely agree that the fact he plays on a team that does not possess defensive support is a major determinant in his -18.

Beans15

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 18:59:06 Wow, watching hockey for more tha 20 years and I never knew that's how +/- worked. I though that PP goals against didn't count, but PP goals for did.

I guess you are right. Thanks for (playfully) stearing me straight.

I still think the fact that Ovechkin plays on a much worse team than Crosby says a lot. +/- is a bad indicator to effectiveness in my eyes.

Guest2892

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 18:38:31

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Interesting look at the +/- of Crosby and Ovechkin

-Crosby is +7 with 113 points, so he has been on the ice for 106 goals against. Ovechkin has 87 points and is -18, so he has been on the ice for 105 goals against.

Crosby has 58 powerplay points...that means he has not been on the ice for 106 goals against. Likewise, Ovechkin has 35 powerplay points. This means that these 2 players have 48 and 70 goals respectively scored against their teams while on the ice. That is, apart from goals that might have been scored while they were out killing penalties.

You have to take into account that many goals are scored on the power play where they do not affect the +/- of the hockey players on the ice.

You are welcome to redo the math if you please

So what does that tell you after all? You are not a huge geek since the numbers just didn't work (he says playfully)

Mikhailova

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 18:03:20

quote:Originally posted by Novie

Sorry to change topic a little bit, but I gotta stand up for my boy! Mik, I usualy agree with you, but:

Really realy tired of this whole argument. Are you saying Cheechoo is better than Thornton because he gets more goals? Kurri was better than Gretzky? He gets his points through different means...it doesn't make one player better than another. It makes him a playmaker, where Ovie is a goal scorer.

I wasn't trying to say Ovechkin is better than Crosby because he scores more goals, I mentioned Crosby's mostly-assist points just to add to the argument that perhaps the reason why Ovi's points aren't as high as Crosby's is because Crosby has a good team to help him earn several of his points (on passes or not) whereas on the Caps Ovi does it all himself. I just threw in the part about Malkin having more goals as an example of how good Crosby's surrounding players are...but then again it doesn't do much good in proving that since Malkin gets his points by a different means than Crosby (goals rather than assists), so perhaps I should've left that out.

-Crosby is +7 with 113 points, so he has been on the ice for 106 goals against. Ovechkin has 87 points and is -18, so he has been on the ice for 105 goals against.

-Pittsburgh has 226 goals against and Crosby has been on for 106 or 47% of those goals. Washington, on the other hand, has allowed 263 goals and Ovechkin been on for 105 or 39%.

Ovechkin has played more minutes(by about 120), plays on a team that allows more goals, has been on the ice for fewer goals against than Crosby, and less of his teams overall goals against.

What does that tell you??

(Other than I am a huge geek???)

Novie

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 15:32:53

quote:Originally posted by Mikhailova

Plus, Sid gets most of his points from assists (because there are other good players on the team who score when he assists them). Malkin has more goals than Crosby does.

Sorry to change topic a little bit, but I gotta stand up for my boy! Mik, I usualy agree with you, but:

Really realy tired of this whole argument. Are you saying Cheechoo is better than Thornton because he gets more goals? Kurri was better than Gretzky? He gets his points through different means...it doesn't make one player better than another. It makes him a playmaker, where Ovie is a goal scorer.

And if you say he gets most of his assists through teammates scoring on his rebounds....hit up youtube: "crosby top 10"...it's in french, but he makes some friggin amazing passes!

Go SensCrosby is GodTucker is a douche

ED11

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 14:15:57 By the way I would also like to point out something that I THINK might happen with Ovechkin. I think that Ovechkin has to work on his defensive game. When he does that, coaches will make him do it, I think we'll find his points dropping because he will be focused on defense more. So what if you score 3 goals a game if you're still a -1 at the end of 60min right? Just look at Kovalchuk. Here are his +/- stats in the NHL -19, -24, -10, -6, -3. WOW. Amazing offensive talent right? Big deal. Kovalchuk is actually working on his +/- this year which is why he is having a pretty disapointing year points wise. I think Ovechkin is going to have the same kind of problem considering they are almost the "same" kind of players.

ED11

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 14:08:29

quote:Originally posted by Guest2897

In that case, if we begin talking about Ovechkin's +/-, I don't look at this year as any sort of a disappointment. I agree as well with Leighs comments. But also, I want to point out that Ovechkin is a player who will lead rushes. He is the Pavel Bure type. He is not the player on the ice who will be first back to play defense. Having said that, my focus for a player like Alex Ovechkin lies solely in his offensive stats. And that is why to me, Sidney Crosby is the far superior player out of the two major sophomores. -18 is a pretty terrible stat however, and I'm sure anybody who coaches him in the future will be looking to improve that number to some extent.

Hockey is not just based on points. And I think that you should NEVER base an opinion solely on offense or defense. But I do agree with what you are saying and I am actually pretty impressed with your opinions and responses. I think you should consider getting an account.

Guest2897

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 13:38:04 In that case, if we begin talking about Ovechkin's +/-, I don't look at this year as any sort of a disappointment. I agree as well with Leighs comments. But also, I want to point out that Ovechkin is a player who will lead rushes. He is the Pavel Bure type. He is not the player on the ice who will be first back to play defense. Having said that, my focus for a player like Alex Ovechkin lies solely in his offensive stats. And that is why to me, Sidney Crosby is the far superior player out of the two major sophomores. -18 is a pretty terrible stat however, and I'm sure anybody who coaches him in the future will be looking to improve that number to some extent.

ED11

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 13:23:22

quote:Originally posted by leigh

quote:Originally posted by ED11

...But if everyone is saying that they didn't expect Ovechkin to do better then he is this year, if everyone is saying that he hasn't let your expectations down even a little then I believe you're lying...

I don't see it as black and white, It's a little grey to me. SO getting 95 or so points is practically 100 to me. So I would say he had a great season and I'm not dissapointed. Of course I wish he could improve his stats every year but that is likely not not going to happen to anyone let alone a guy who starts at the top of the heap. In 30+ years of watching the game I know season totals are always a different. If he bounces around 100 points a season he is pretty darn consistent and that is a special player.

Yea I agree Leigh. When you put it that way. The thing is that I am not only talking about points. He is now a -18! Yea and I know "he plays for the caps...blah blah blah" But why is he the worst +/- on that team? He wasn't last year. I don't know, I guess I just wanted to get a discussion going...maybe I read into it too much.

ED11

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 13:18:10 Sorry guest 2897 I didn't mean it that way. It just seems that everyone is thinking that I am saying that Ovechkin is done because of this year. You know? Which is not what I am saying.

Guest2897

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 13:09:44

quote:Originally posted by ED11

Anyway, this is not a discussion about Ovechkin and Crosby. But if everyone is saying that they didn't expect Ovechkin to do better then he is this year, if everyone is saying that he hasn't let your expectations down even a little then I believe you're lying.

Why did you ask for our opinions then if we're only allowed to give your opinion?

It doesn't make much sense for everybody on here to post "yes I expected more" I say if you want people's opionion on what they think Ovechkin should do, make a poll that asks "what do you think Ovechkin's point total will be for the 2007-08 season? Less than 80, 80-90, 90-100, 100-110, more than 110.

leigh

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 13:07:35

quote:Originally posted by ED11

...But if everyone is saying that they didn't expect Ovechkin to do better then he is this year, if everyone is saying that he hasn't let your expectations down even a little then I believe you're lying...

I don't see it as black and white, It's a little grey to me. SO getting 95 or so points is practically 100 to me. So I would say he had a great season and I'm not dissapointed. Of course I wish he could improve his stats every year but that is likely not not going to happen to anyone let alone a guy who starts at the top of the heap. In 30+ years of watching the game I know season totals are always a different. If he bounces around 100 points a season he is pretty darn consistent and that is a special player.

leigh

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 12:55:22

quote:Originally posted by Novie

quote:Originally posted by leigh

It's hard to follow a 100+ point season when you're only in your second year.

Sidney did it

I rest my case. it's hard to do.

ED11

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 12:55:10 Ok. Can someone PLEASE point out to me where I said that Ovechkin is a bad player or where I said that his career is over because of his year this seaon??? Because that what everyone is making my posts out to be. ALL I AM SAYING is that I am certain that everyone would have projected Ovechkin to get AT LEAST 100 points this season after his AMAZING display of skill last season. Everyone is saying that Ovechkin doesn't have as many good players as Crosby has on his team. I think that Ovechkin plays better when he is the ONLY superstar on the team. Thats cause he is a scorer anyway. Someone else comes on the team and scores 30 or 40 goals and now Ovechkin has to share the spotlight. And Mik, Crosby is in on 43% of Pittsburghs goals. Everyone knows that it takes a special player to do that. It's not only that "Sid gets most of his points from assists (because there are other good players on the team who score when he assists them)." As you put it.

Anyway, this is not a discussion about Ovechkin and Crosby. But if everyone is saying that they didn't expect Ovechkin to do better then he is this year, if everyone is saying that he hasn't let your expectations down even a little then I believe you're lying.

Guest2897

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 12:30:37

quote:Originally posted by ED11

The media made his out to be so amazing. God, they even nicknamed him Alex "the great". Maybe I am reading into this too much because everyone is going to have a slip up year and it is only his second year. But then again, maybe he maxed out in his first year?

Just because you have used his Gretzky-esque nickname, I will make my point by using Gretzky's stats. It is year two of his career, and it's a little early to be making assumptions. Players can still be improving and playing an outstanding game without hitting new personal point records. Ovechkin is on pace for 93 points, which is pretty outstanding in today's NHL. This is just 13 points shy of his mark last year. I will point out that Gretzky in 81-82 had 212 points, then in 82-83, fell to a flustering 196 points. A whole 16 points behind his previous mark. It just seems to me to be a little foolish to be calling it a one-year thing for Ovechkin when we can't see a full trend of statistics. Give it 3 more years and then begin this post again.

Mikhailova

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 12:00:22 Plus, Sid gets most of his points from assists (because there are other good players on the team who score when he assists them). Malkin has more goals than Crosby does.

-oil-country-

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 09:59:24

quote:Originally posted by Novie

quote:Originally posted by leigh

It's hard to follow a 100+ point season when you're only in your second year.

Sidney did it

Go SensCrosby is GodTucker is a douche

Sidney also has a good team, Ovechkin only has Semin. It would be really hard to be Ovechkin because defenders know that you shut him down and there team is practically nothing.

He's going to be one of the top players in the league for his entire career I'm sure. I think he'll capture his share of scoring races in that time too. It's hard to follow a 100+ point season when you're only in your second year. By no means is this a failure or a "slip up" for him, in fact for him to reach 90+ points this year will be a testament to how incredible he is and will be. I for one can't wait to watch his career unfold. Ovechkin is the man.

Leigh. Ovechkin is an AWESOME talent. You are right. He will be at the top of the league for his whole career. But, if you had told me after last season that you didn't think that Ovechkin would get AT LEAST 100 points this season I would not believe you. He is an explosive player. He showed it last year. And I'm not saying that he hasn't been doing it this year or that his stats this year suck or anything like that. I'm just saying that I am certain that MOST people would have projected him to do much better(15-20pts) better then he is doing right now.

Beans. I respect your opinion that Ovechkin is as good as Crosby. In my opinion he isn't. They are two different players. You are right about the Caps not doing anything to help Ovechkin. Then again I have a theory also. Maybe Ovechkin doesn't do as well when he has another player in his team that can score 30-40 goals. Just my opinion. But maybe Ovechkin has to be the clear cut star on his team to do what he did his first year.

Beans15

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 07:17:16 Ovechkin, in my opinion, is as good as Crosby. The reason that he has not produced as well as he did last year is that Washington has done nothing to improve their team. They are worse this year than last year and he has no support.

Pitts added Staal, Malkin, got Recchi back, Gonchar is playing better, and lately Roberts. All of this helps Crosby immensly. What has Washington done?? Added Semin??

Plus, after seeing what he could do as a rookie, most teams were key on him. So he has had a hard time in scoring(as has Crosby) with literally no support.

PENSFAN8771

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 06:44:42 I wouldn't say that adding a good player around him should decrease his scoring. In fact, he should be getting more assists as a result. He'll be a good player, but he's no Crosby.

Novie

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 05:15:32 I think Alex 'The Great' will be our next run-of-the-mill, Pavel Bure impersonating, high scoring Russian. Dime a dozen...but at least he plays with a bit of grit and has a great scoring touch to go along with it. Kinda like if you gave Bure's speed and skill to Shanny.

Go SensCrosby is GodTucker is a douche

Novie

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 05:13:55

quote:Originally posted by Canucks Man

...with Semin being the amazing player that he is.

CANUCKS RULE!!!

Let's not give Alexander Semin 'Amazing' status just yet

Go SensCrosby is GodTucker is a douche

Novie

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 05:13:14

quote:Originally posted by leigh

It's hard to follow a 100+ point season when you're only in your second year.

Sidney did it

Go SensCrosby is GodTucker is a douche

Saku Steen

Posted - 03/28/2007 : 03:54:32 He has sliped a bit but is still doing good.

Canucks Man

Posted - 03/27/2007 : 23:26:25 I think he's slowed down a but this year because last year he was the offence he was everything the capitals had, The second player to Ovechkin was Zubrus who had just over half what Ovechkin had, but this season some of the offencive weight has been lifted off his shoulders with Semin being the amazing player that he is.