On men’s rights advocacy and feminism

This isn’t a definition of feminism that all feminists can get behind. Some women believe that the only way to fight the patriarchy is to take care of women exclusively. And, over the years, some of these women have written to me to tell me what they think of my idea of feminism. Frankly though, they are few and far between and, more importantly, far less vitriolic than the men’s rights advocates who manage to take exception to my very equality-minded feminism.

These men think that anyone who goes by the title of “feminist” must be a misandrist, and they insist that women already have equal rights. They believe this despite the fact that:

women still suffer pervasive negative judgments on femininity like the ubiquitous “don’t be such a girl,” which is used to put down both men and women, as well as terms like “slut” and “whore” being used to describe only sexually liberated women while similar behavior in men is championed.

women still do most of the parenting, an activity that is not valued in the US. And this means that all women—whether or not they are or will ever be moms—tend to be viewed as employees who are not committed to their careers.

women still earn less than men for the same work, a situation which is, in large part, caused by parenting not being valued in this country.

women still hold many less positions of power in the corporate world and in the political arena. After all, just 17 of the current US Senators are female, of the 100+ Supreme Court justices in our history there have only ever been 4 female ones, and there has never been a Ms. President of the United States.

If these men actually cared about men’s rights, they’d lobby for women’s rights. The plight of each sex is inextricably linked to the other’s. To be blind to this is to be as bad as the angry separatist misandrists that these men’s rights advocates so despise. Fighting each other is a sure way to keep us all good and oppressed.

Gwenn SeemelJaws-ette (Great white shark)2012acrylic on panel10 x 10 inches(For information about the making of this painting, visit this article.)

Recently, I read Baratunde Thurston’s How To Be Black, and, though the entire book was funny and fascinating, irreverent and illuminating, I was particularly struck by one idea in it, an idea for which Thurston gives W. Kamau Bell credit when he quotes the comedian:

Black people get so caught up in the black struggle that we forget to be caught up in other people’s struggles. And we forget to realize that we should be just as concerned about their struggles as our struggle. And it’s really sort of frustrating me.

Any black person who’s not with the people in Arizona, on the side of the immigrants, you’re an asshole. Not that it’s the same thing, but these are all struggles of oppressed people. Any black person who’s like, “Gay marriage???” Let me just sit you down and talk to you for half an hour. I get that you think gay is creepy. But other than that, there’s no way you should be [opposed].

I’ve recently come to the conclusion: I think that all people who are fighting for oppressed people should only be allowed to work for the group that’s one over from them. Black people should only be allowed to work for the Mexican immigrants’ struggle in America. Mexican immigrants should only be allowed to work for gay marriage. Gay marriage should only be allowed to work for black people. I feel like if we stepped one group over, I think we would get things done a lot quicker.

You can’t end racism and make sexism worse. You can’t end racism and make homophobia worse. You have to put it all forward…So a big part of my how-to-be-black is actually trying to be inclusive of all the struggles.

To the men’s rights advocates who aren’t also feminists and to the feminists who aren’t committed to equality, the rest of us are trying to make the world a better place, and, so far, you’re not helping. Instead of bickering between each other and lashing out at potential allies, you should focus your efforts on eliminating racism or homophobia, and only come back to the fight against sexism once you can be civilized.

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(22) Comments / Commentaires: On men’s rights advocacy and feminism

-- Glennie Bee -- 2012 . 07 . 05 --

Right behind you here, Gwenn. I’ve had a bellyful of strident misandrists and their dogmatic, pedantic, myopic proselytizing, that far from being conducive to the Cause, merely raises folks’- mens’ AND womens - hackles, and anything sensible they have to say consequently goes unheard, even scorned. Equality for ALL.
Great idea on the ‘one over, too.

It’s sad and amazing both to see how many women here are surprised to find that they’re still “just” women after they have kids. Before children, they’re out there doing the same sort of work as men, still doing the extreme sports as men, after kids they find themselves to be frustrated stay at home moms. Not so advanced and equal after all. Their husbands/male partners are making more money so it makes “sense” for the woman to take care of the kids, no matter how modern their relationship.

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-- Gwenn -- 2012 . 07 . 08 --

There’s a certain selfishness to only working on problems that affect you—a selfishness and a failure to see the opportunity to build stronger communities that exists when we all work together to fight oppression of all kinds.

And parenting’s throw-away status is lamentable. It defeats women and men both. I may never want to be a parent, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t value the people who are raising the next generation!

Re-read this and still love it from a different angle. My favorite feminists are men I’ve worked with in blue collar jobs… if I was able to do the job, they were willing to teach me more. No gender barriers need apply

I want to respond to Kelly’s assertion that a woman who chooses to be a stay-at-home mom has somehow thrown away her feminist ideals. The act of making and having that choice is feminist (and it’s not always due to pay inequality. I realize it’s still a BIG issue & should be rectified but it also has a tendency to be cited more too, by women who want less push back about their choice to stay home.) It’s short-sighted to make characterizations of motherhood (or parenthood in general) when you haven’t seen firsthand, the inside of that life. The issues surrounding parenting & procreation are extremely nuanced & while I will freely admit there are women still being marginalized in these roles, I’d also like to point out that much of the time they’re being marginalized by other women (those working moms & childless women) who judge their act to procreate or “stay-at-home,” as giving up on feminism or on themselves. Motherhood & stay-at-home parenting can be a powerful expression of feminism, depending on the parent & how they choose to raise their child. I am both a stay-at-home mom AND a working mom because I chose to create a business for myself, in order to be home & see my child grow up. BUT I am NOT the primary caretaker for my child, my husband is. He is a stay-at-home dad. For the first year and half of my child’s life, I was the primary & my husband the secondary. As we approached year 2, my business, needed more of my time & focus. My husband came full time into the home & I went full time into the business. Still both of us are here for our son but the lion’s share of household duties fell on my husband’s shoulders. Now, that our son is school age, my hubby has begun working for the business too & my role is shifting to include more household duties, in order for all things to be more balanced & equitable for both of us. In our situation, you begin see that things normally chalked up to being “typically male” or “typically female” are often neither. They seem to be more a result of the nature of the jobs themselves and the lack of appreciation or understanding that can happen when roles are so clearly delineated that there is no overlap. When household duties overlap, perspective is gained, empathy & appreciation garnered for your partner, no matter the gender or role. And men who decide to be stay-at-home dads face similar criticism as their female counterparts (maybe even a bit more virulent, often being referred to as freeloaders or assumed to be taking advantage of the woman they’re parenting with. Women don’t generally get this criticism but instead get the “she threw away her equality by being a stay-at-home mom.”) The truth is though, that parenting is tough work for anyone. You WILL hear complaints from ALL (honest) parents, in the primary caretaking role. You will hear complaints about needing adult conversation, feeling bored, wanting to be back in the workforce, feeling isolated, overwhelmed or less a part of things & these are all utterly true at the moment you hear them. But what you don’t realize is that what is equally true is the concurrent emotions of not wanting to miss a moment of their childhood. And the moment you decide to not be the primary, your heart will be torn the other direction. I’m sure there are some stay-at-home parents, for whom the role truly doesn’t work (I am actually better suited for out-in-the-world work & the hubby for in-the-home) BUT what I’m saying is what all parents know, that primary parenting is a job & it can feel thankless, isolating & frustrating but what most of us, who choose to have kids, also agree upon is that there is no better job in the world. THIS is why the woman you speak about is complaining but ready to sign up for a second one. It’s not just a biological drive, it’s the idea that you’re doing important work, that you’re seeing miracles every day, that in the midst of the pain, exhaustion & downright brutal work of parenting & even on the days when you want to scream after you put them down to bed, that there is nothing else in the world you’d rather be doing. It is a creative process and like all creation, it is both devastatingly painful & splendidly, amazingly joyful. My point is, don’t assume that stay-at-home moms (even the ones complaining to you) aren’t making a feminist choice about their lives, when they choose to be a stay-at-home parent.

P.s. Oh, and yes, parenthood changes you, as all major life events do (both men and women) priorities shift, your mortality becomes instantly more apparent to you & depending upon who you are, how much of your identity is wrapped up in extreme sports and how fearful you are, men or women may decide to move away from these things, as a way to ensure they’re around for their kids. Still, it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re any less feminist or less themselves.

whoa! I didn’t say all women who become stay at home mothers give up their feminist ideals. ONE woman that I know here in my very small town has completely changed. ONE woman is not representative of all women or all mothers. I am crazy enough to believe that all people of all types are individuals to be considered in a case by case basis. Thank you for that same courtesy.

and if you’ll go back to my comment about my friend you will discover nothing that says I think what she’s done is wrong. My point was that mother hood changed her, she fell so deeply in love with her daughter and her new life that in spite of her frustrations she just wants to have another child.

You need to know that I am a single woman with out kids. Not because I somehow belittle motherhood but because creating and raising a human being should be left to people more courageous than I am.

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-- Gwenn -- 2014 . 02 . 16 --

@Vanessa: I don’t think that Kelly was saying that a woman who chooses to stay home has thrown away her ideals or that she is only making babies because of some biological drive. It was clear to me that she was referring to a specific person who was feeling a bit boxed in by her choice to have children because of society’s weirdness around child-rearing, but that woman wanted to do it anyway.

Your comment reveals a lot of emotion on the subject of parenthood, its delights and its difficulties as well as what it means to be a parent in society. In fact, there’s so much emotion that some of your comment could also very easily be read as having some “you’re missing out” judgment of people who choose not to have children. Because I know you, I don’t think that’s what you mean when you say “It’s short-sighted to make characterizations of motherhood (or parenthood in general) when you haven’t seen firsthand, the inside of that life.” At the same time, I’ll admit that I found that hard to read.

I’m tired of being told by religious people that I don’t get to have opinions about religion because I don’t subscribe to their institutionalized brand of spirituality. And similarly, I’m tired of parents telling me that I don’t know anything about having kids because I don’t have any. For one thing, I’m a human being who sees the world and learns about it. For another, adults with children know very little of what it’s like to not have children.

Still, parents often believe they know all about what it is to be childfree because they existed before they had kids—probably when they were unfocused 20-30 year olds, so they assume childfree people live their lives in that limbo. I tend to think parents know less about what it is to be childfree than childfree people know about parenthood specifically because parents think they know more so they’re not open to new input! That and parenting is such a time-consuming gig that parents are often not interested in thinking about anything besides their kids and the daily grind and certainly not what it’s actually like to not have kids—if anything they enjoy escaping to a fantasy version of childfree-ness that’s all about avoiding responsibilities.

The fact is that we can all learn from each other. And we can certainly learn from our own reactions to what other people say!

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-- Gwenn -- 2014 . 02 . 16 --

@Kelly: I love hearing those stories about feminist men doing the good work everywhere it’s needed! It makes me feel so good about the world.

Hi Ladies - sorry not to get back to you sooner (been offline for most of the day.) I got the impression not from Kelly’s more specific 2nd comment but instead from her first, in which this section stuck out to me as a broad generalization: “Before children, they’re out there doing the same sort of work as men, still doing the extreme sports as men, after kids they find themselves to be frustrated stay at home moms.”

My intention was to supply some first hand perspective.

I was once, childless by choice, in my first marriage (a 17 year relationship) that ended when I was 36.) I know what it is like to be a committed childless couple (not aimless in my 20’s or 30’s - actually, I was quite driven in my 20s and 30s. I don’t know that I’ve ever even had an aimless period. I suppose I should have one at some point- maybe in retirement. Ha!) I just want to say I have been in your position and I do know that it is not some kind of limbo. My childless life was just as full, it was just full of different stuff. My comment was NOT intended as some underlying idea that the childless are missing out. (As you know, I don’t believe this.) I made that first hand comment precisely because so many of these discussions do end up feeling like no one can understand the other’s position. Both sides feel judged. Mostly, you’re judged no matter who you are or what choice you make - by someone, somewhere. But what I was attempting to do was to shed some light, a light that no one ever shed for me, when I was in your position. I, like you, thought that I knew what having kids was about. You’re around them, you observe, maybe even more objectively than their parents what the dynamics are. Heck, I had even helped raise my siblings & my younger brother-in-law. I was a human being & I saw the world & learned about it. Still, I didn’t know - & the rub was, I didn’t know, that I didn’t know. That is, until I had a child of my own. I did not mean to say or even infer that you or Kelly do not know ANYTHING about having kids, more exactly what I meant was, you don’t know everything or even some of the most important parts. And that’s because it IS all so nuanced, and secretively guarded. There are many, many things parents rarely speak aloud to anyone (especially childless friends) but then, every once in awhile, someone will speak their truth (usually to other parents) and all the other parents will nod and go home feeling somehow a little validated. Much of the time, this is because we fear the judgment, we fear appearing boring to those who are childless, like we have nothing to talk about except our kids (we hear these comments) but mostly we fear that we’re not good enough for the job of being a parent. And that was kind of my point, there is all this baggage or underbelly that comes with parenting, particularly for mothers, who tell you they’re frustrated in their stay-at-home role. For some, it’s an expected part of the territory, for some that frustration is transient and for others it’s indeed chronic. Were Kelly’s comments resigned to the singular friend or incidence, I would not have felt the need to speak. But that first comment is what moved me to. The perspective of the singular (2nd comment) informing the opinion about the collective (1st comment.) And that was because of a desire to share what I had learned firsthand. I do, still hold firm to my belief that it is short-sighted to make blanket characterizations of motherhood or parenthood based on limited information & by this I mean, that there are some things you may observe, study & maybe even empathize with but which, you will never truly know what it is like for the other person. I will never know what it feels like to be African American, transgendered or what it feels like to grow up a male—that is not to say one experience is better than another or that I cannot learn about or empathize with those who are, just that, when it comes to those experiences, I’m not very likely to position myself as an expert, or even someone who knows just as much as the people in these circumstances and I will most likely refrain from talking about these topics as if I have the answer, when I’ve never experienced, first hand the emotions and thoughts of someone who IS in those situations. It would be similar to someone who does not have endometriosis making characterizations about the disease & those dealing with it, based on what they’ve observed or read about it or the fact that they had a friend or sibling with it. Regardless, they still don’t know what it is like for you, dealing with it day in & day out. That was all I meant. For me, having children is a choice, like any other we make in our lives, no right or wrong, only what is right or wrong for us individually. This is the crux of what I think feminism should mean - the right to our own choices.

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-- Gwenn -- 2014 . 02 . 17 --

@Vanessa: If you don’t think I can know what it’s really like to have kids, then you can’t know what it’s like to not have kids even if you used to not have kids. You can’t have it both ways…! The fact is that both parenthood and a lifetime of spent childfree are deeply nuanced life choices.

I still don’t think that any of Kelly’s comments were denigrating. She was making a valid point about womanhood and parenthood—that women can feel boxed in by motherhood. She didn’t say that all women do, just that, in her experience, many women do. And, in my experience, she’s right. The women I know who have children may feel deeply blessed by having their children, but they also often feel frustrated. Neither of us are saying that women shouldn’t have kids because of this. And neither of us are saying that you feel that way, just like I wasn’t saying that you were aimless in your 20s.

I love this conversation, all 3 of us trying to understand and share our life long perspectives.

My posts are months apart and are both specific to women that live in this small town. The first one was made when a woman that lives here part time left her husband and two kids to pursue her kite boarding life. This town has the attraction of season extreme sports, heli-skiing and kite skiing/boarding. She left her 2 boys to their father who is also an extreme sports enthusiast but he’s able to be steady and care for the boys.

There is a ‘village’ of women here that are taking are of that father and those boys, but the mom chose to leave.

I am the first to tell people “being a childless woman”... blah blah blah. Usually, if not always, it is to pass on admiration for their ability to juggle and balance and raise children. I KNOW I don’t know how/what it’s like/how it feels. I also know my sister got all the maternal genes, I don’t feel that amazing bliss I’ve seen on my sister’s face when she holds a wee baby.

I also know what it feels like to have people assume that since I’m a single childless woman something is amiss. Must be a lesbian because I know how to turn a wrench and live alone. Must hate kids because I chose not to have them. Must not understand that raising kids is wonderful, amazing, frustrating, beautiful, empowering…

Trying to figure out where I miscommunicated in my early comments. In my first comment I put just in quotes trying to indicate that the attitude that they’re just women is wrong. No one is JUST anything, we’re all complex multi faceted humans.

The women I was referring to had obtained status in their sports, particularly the kite boarder. I didn’t change her status, I am not responsible for any part of her story. Society changed her status and I believe that is wrong and unfair.

That said, I think it is also wrong and unfair that she left her boys to pursue her extreme sports. I would also think it wrong and unfair if the boys’ father left to pursue his extreme sports.

Kelly, I appreciate you hanging in there with the conversation and trying to see what I intended to assert. I also, now, realize why you and Gwenn both focused on the 2nd comment and not the first (I did not know they were months apart.) I absolutely “get” your perspective. I remember all the pressure, judgment and ideas people had about me and my former husband. (And because he came from a family that founded the Baptist churches in California, the pressure was intense to marry and procreate.) People made assumptions about who was the reason we had no children (both of us), why we didn’t have them (too selfish.) There is indeed an enormous amount of pressure, especially if you are in a happy coupling, to procreate, from seemingly well-meaning if not completely misguided folks. I remember the pain and frustration of those judgments and, I in no way meant to ever infer that one should have kids just to enjoy the perspective of someone who does. It truly is NOT for everybody and I absolutely respect any choice a woman who knows what she wants makes. I have particularly enjoyed chatting with you because of your willingness to stay engaged and be open to other perspectives. My only intention here was to present a bit of information that may not always be shared, particularly among those that are feminists. Just as there is pressure from society for everyone to be a babymaker, many moms also feel wedged in by the pressure to prove they are still relevant and more than JUST a babymaker. I actually don’t have this problem—mostly because I did wait until later in life to change my mind and because I have the added perspective of having spent a whole other lifetime in the childless by choice camp before I become changed my mind and decided to become a mom. This has allowed me to be pretty confident in that choice and I and my husband have also done things a bit differently, regardless of the pressure of outside forces (we also get pressure from family to have more kids, to move to the burbs, to get religion, to properly socialize our child’s gender etc, etc.) My point is, it seems there will always be someone there to judge us and I believe that it is only through conversations like these that we are brought closer together rather than driven further apart.

As I was walking the dog I ran through this conversation in my head… a technique I use a lot to keep myself from shooting from the hip. In my head I “write” all of the rude, condescending, self-rightous, defensive answers available to me. If I didn’t this whole thing would circle the drain very quickly.

One thing I will say from that mental conversation is this: look down at the soapbox from which you speak. It came with your child. It gives you definition good or bad (your choice). You will never have to construct another soapbox. Ever.

My soapbox at 50 years of age and childless (by choice) is not so well defined… and not so pretty. Painted on the sides of it are words that will not go away no matter how modern and forward thinking I imagine I am. No matter how strong and self-defining I am I will always be trying to reconstruct that soapbox into something more acceptable to society.

My mother helped me build my soap box and I will never get rid of it, I love the courage and strength she gave me. I’ll just keep painting over the words that indicate I’ve failed at reproducing.

Oh, the only time I can see the soapbox that says “mother” on it (and here I am talking about all mothers, not just you) is when a woman lectures me about mother hood. I do not define women by the product of their wombs, I define them by their actions and words… then I try to re define them next time I see them because they are in fact humans first.

Hmmm . . .thought we were to a good understanding. Now, I will confess, with your last comment, I am a bit lost. I have hope that maybe the use of the word soapbox is not intended as a negative here. But maybe it is. Maybe the gulf of misunderstandings and differing perspective is just too great to move past the defensive (for both sides.) But I remain hopeful and for my part, I’m trying to help bridge understanding. I was never angry, hostile or in headspace of trying to be condescending or rude or even lecture, I hope that is apparent. (I’ll admit I’m a bit disheartened that my comments would put anyone else in that space either.) I was attempting to make myself understood.

Honestly, if you’re offended (either of you) I just want to say that my intentions here were good, even if the execution was not. I only wished to add a voice from the perspective you were discussing (someone who has formerly been in your position.) I thought my perspective might be somewhat unique, as it differs also from my counterparts who married young and had children right away (the perspective Gwenn cited earlier.) I felt I had a somewhat middle ground position and no ill feelings towards anyone who chooses a life without children. But maybe it is not being seen or received that way.

For what it’s worth, I think we are all, always reinventing our boxes, Kelly, painting over the stuff we don’t like, turning the stuff we can’t paint over but don’t wish to see to the back, reshaping the crumpled parts, recycling or repairing the bits that come off but mostly making it our own, deciding when to seal it closed and when to kick it open and let some light in or when to point it to face a new view. None of us in this life truly have it easier or harder—just different. Life is full of these trade offs. We decide which we are willing to live with.

It’s been a slice and sincerely hope we all part, at least, not worse for the wear. I have a host of deadlines to get to now though and must end my participation in the conversation here. Keep up the delicate work of digging and revelation Gwenn, the process of sparking debate. It’s all good. As long as someone’s talking about these things they cannot fester in darkness.

I hope you haven’t left this conversation, I really do, I am enjoying our back and forth and enjoying that you make me think and attempt to explain my point of view!
Soapbox in my mind is not negative… what I was trying to convey is this: Motherhood is a defined role. A defined role that is and always has been accepted as good and fine. And filled with knowledge the non mother will never realize. Once a woman has a child she is granted a place in society that includes a lexicon of knowledge real or imagined that will never be bestowed upon the non child bearing woman.
I do not bestow that knowledge, I do not suggest that a woman loses her feminist ideals by having a baby, I do not give or take her status in society. Honestly, most of the time, I don’t think about moms, kids or my own fertility. My folks didn’t care if I reproduced, or married.

I was raised by intellects in Alaska… my father advised me not to take up welding because the fumes are toxic. We were unconventional but loving.

I won’t change your perspective, it’s too late to change mine. I’m just glad you spent the time replying to my posts!

Thank freaking you. This is really starting to get on my nerves—how blind can people really be when they think the oppression of one gender doesn’t effect the other? When a woman can’t get an abortion, this means a man is gonna end up having to pay child support for a kid he maybe didn’t even want. When women aren’t paid as much money, it means that men are going to have to pay more money in taxes for programs to help single mothers. When a man can’t dress up in women’s clothes without being called a pussy, this strangles his freedom and implies that women are somehow less then men.

Men’s rights activists want to make it possible for men to sign a paper eliminating their rights and responsibilities to a child the same way a mother can if she chooses to get an abortion. At first I wasn’t sure about this, but then I realized that this would only demand IMPROVED access to reproductive health services to women. States that struggle to make it next to impossible for a woman to get an abortion would have a crisis on their hands if the women they forced to be mothers couldn’t receive financial support from the fathers. (Of course, the likelihood of passing this kind of anti-patriarchal legislation in states like that is about as likely as finding a well-developed female character in an action flick).

When you fight for gay marriage, you’re fighting for a fresh outlook on custody battles that don’t discriminate based on gender. You’re fighting to permanently break apart traditional gender roles that try to lock people in place and destroy their freedoms.

When you fight for equality you are making the world a better place for EVERYONE. You can’t improve women’s rights without improving men’s and vice-versa. You can’t improve gay rights without improving the rights of men and women. You can’t improve the rights of any race without improving the rights of all others.

I am grateful that I am not the only person in the world who is fighting for real equality. Thank you for existing, Gwen.

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-- Gwenn -- 2014 . 05 . 12 --

@Alyssa: It is nice to meet others who are fighting too, isn’t it? Also, you bring up a lot of interesting points and things I want to look into, so thank you!