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As a soon to be 1L who has now committed to 3 years of additional schooling, I have been searching for qualified insight into the current job outlook for recent law grads... I don't think I'm alone here. I would love to see questions answered without the undue sarcasm, snide remarks, and unsubstantiated claims so often a part of the other topics here in TLS Forums.

To start, I would be very interested in hearing from some 2L's, 3L's, and recent grads about their personal experience in finding legal work.

I don't know of very many 2Ls at Hastings who got jobs through OCI. I would estimate that no more than 10% got anything. My impression is that most schools ranked 20-100 are experiencing similarly dismal results right now.

What does this mean? Very few people are getting the 160k jobs that law schools like to advertise in their employment statistics. I am one who still thinks small firm work is a desirable thing, so I am not overly concerned. I will be happy to make 55-65k at a small firm if I can.

General Tso wrote:I don't know of very many 2Ls at Hastings who got jobs through OCI. I would estimate that no more than 10% got anything. My impression is that most schools ranked 20-100 are experiencing similarly dismal results right now.

What does this mean? Very few people are getting the 160k jobs that law schools like to advertise in their employment statistics. I am one who still thinks small firm work is a desirable thing, so I am not overly concerned. I will be happy to make 55-65k at a small firm if I can.

+1

I have been heavily criticized for claiming that UT placed less than 20% in biglaw through OCI this year. I still stand by that observation though.

General Tso wrote:I don't know of very many 2Ls at Hastings who got jobs through OCI. I would estimate that no more than 10% got anything. My impression is that most schools ranked 20-100 are experiencing similarly dismal results right now.

What does this mean? Very few people are getting the 160k jobs that law schools like to advertise in their employment statistics. I am one who still thinks small firm work is a desirable thing, so I am not overly concerned. I will be happy to make 55-65k at a small firm if I can.

+1

I have been heavily criticized for claiming that UT placed less than 20% in biglaw through OCI this year. I still stand by that observation though.

What about areas other than biglaw? I will be attending t40-t50 range and do not plan on practicing in biglaw. <-- as if this were a possibility

I know a lot of people who are 3Ls or who graduated before me unemployed. They looked for legal work and often found something but nothing close to what they had hoped. Debt is a major issue. Many of the 2Ls I know are likewise struggling to find employment for next summer, and have all but given up on paid firm summer associate positions that could lead to full-time employment.

I also know people who are swimming in prestigious clerkships, got several offers for jobs at the fanciest law firms, and are in general kicking ass and taking names.

It's very hard to peg percentages on it, especially because the second group is much more apt to talk of their success than the former group is to speak about their struggles. I'd say something like 70% of the class is happy with what law school has given to them. Not all of those people are going to big firms - a lot have government or public interest work they wanted from the beginning. The problem is that it's feast-or-famine. The other 30% (again, just a guess at the numbers) aren't dissatisfied with a 50K job, they're staring down 6-figure loan debt and have no employment prospects whatsoever. And it's not because they're not looking, not because their grades were awful, and not because they're unpersonable. Certainly a few have some or all of those characteristics, but for the most part some people just slipped through the cracks.

I know people who were no-offered after their 2L summer (back when firms were hit with tough times and couldn't bring the entire summer class on board) that haven't drawn a salary in over a year after graduation. Those people were on track to earn 160, and have been at 0.

There was a huge rush to medium sized and small law firms when the crash hit, but those firms had bad financial times too. Some people squeezed into such positions, but unemployment or profound underemployment still exist even for UVA law grads who are casting wide nets.

It's really weird to know soon-to-be CoA (and even Supreme Court) clerks as well as people who have no idea how they're going to make their student loan payments. Law school sometimes feel like a casino, especially because 1L grades had so much to do with it and the lack of feedback can make those feel extremely arbitrary and random. But if it's a casino, at least the odds are still pretty good at UVA. I really don't know what it's like at other schools, except that even friends at GW have reported difficulty landing big firm gigs from the top of the class and wide-spread un or underemployment.

The situation is bleak, which I'm sure contributes to a lot of the snark OP reels against. The cynicism has a lot to do with the fact that it takes a lot of exposure to friends, to law school, to the legal market, to statistics, articles, etc. before the reality of just how bad the market is can sink in. As a result it's easy to be jaded and hard to interact on a message board where every year thousands of people join because they think law has promise. They think a legal career will make them upwardly mobile, be satisfying, and come after an enjoyable 3 years of education.

They're not stupid to think that when they first poke around the forum and begin applying to law school, but they are almost all wrong. And that's hard to deal with.

I know a lot of people who are 3Ls or who graduated before me unemployed. They looked for legal work and often found something but nothing close to what they had hoped. Debt is a major issue. Many of the 2Ls I know are likewise struggling to find employment for next summer, and have all but given up on paid firm summer associate positions that could lead to full-time employment.

I also know people who are swimming in prestigious clerkships, got several offers for jobs at the fanciest law firms, and are in general kicking ass and taking names.

It's very hard to peg percentages on it, especially because the second group is much more apt to talk of their success than the former group is to speak about their struggles. I'd say something like 70% of the class is happy with what law school has given to them. Not all of those people are going to big firms - a lot have government or public interest work they wanted from the beginning. The problem is that it's feast-or-famine. The other 30% (again, just a guess at the numbers) aren't dissatisfied with a 50K job, they're staring down 6-figure loan debt and have no employment prospects whatsoever. And it's not because they're not looking, not because their grades were awful, and not because they're unpersonable. Certainly a few have some or all of those characteristics, but for the most part some people just slipped through the cracks.

I know people who were no-offered after their 2L summer (back when firms were hit with tough times and couldn't bring the entire summer class on board) that haven't drawn a salary in over a year after graduation. Those people were on track to earn 160, and have been at 0.

There was a huge rush to medium sized and small law firms when the crash hit, but those firms had bad financial times too. Some people squeezed into such positions, but unemployment or profound underemployment still exist even for UVA law grads who are casting wide nets.

It's really weird to know soon-to-be CoA (and even Supreme Court) clerks as well as people who have no idea how they're going to make their student loan payments. Law school sometimes feel like a casino, especially because 1L grades had so much to do with it and the lack of feedback can make those feel extremely arbitrary and random. But if it's a casino, at least the odds are still pretty good at UVA. I really don't know what it's like at other schools, except that even friends at GW have reported difficulty landing big firm gigs from the top of the class and wide-spread un or underemployment.

The situation is bleak, which I'm sure contributes to a lot of the snark OP reels against. The cynicism has a lot to do with the fact that it takes a lot of exposure to friends, to law school, to the legal market, to statistics, articles, etc. before the reality of just how bad the market is can sink in. As a result it's easy to be jaded and hard to interact on a message board where every year thousands of people join because they think law has promise. They think a legal career will make them upwardly mobile, be satisfying, and come after an enjoyable 3 years of education.

They're not stupid to think that when they first poke around the forum and begin applying to law school, but they are almost all wrong. And that's hard to deal with.

+1

haoledugan wrote:

JazzOne wrote:

General Tso wrote:I don't know of very many 2Ls at Hastings who got jobs through OCI. I would estimate that no more than 10% got anything. My impression is that most schools ranked 20-100 are experiencing similarly dismal results right now.

What does this mean? Very few people are getting the 160k jobs that law schools like to advertise in their employment statistics. I am one who still thinks small firm work is a desirable thing, so I am not overly concerned. I will be happy to make 55-65k at a small firm if I can.

+1

I have been heavily criticized for claiming that UT placed less than 20% in biglaw through OCI this year. I still stand by that observation though.

What about areas other than biglaw? I will be attending t40-t50 range and do not plan on practicing in biglaw. <-- as if this were a possibility

My 1L grades were solid, so I focused exclusively on biglaw. That almost turned out to be a huge mistake. I don't think other areas were any better, but I'm really not sure.

I know a lot of people who are 3Ls or who graduated before me unemployed. They looked for legal work and often found something but nothing close to what they had hoped. Debt is a major issue. Many of the 2Ls I know are likewise struggling to find employment for next summer, and have all but given up on paid firm summer associate positions that could lead to full-time employment.

I also know people who are swimming in prestigious clerkships, got several offers for jobs at the fanciest law firms, and are in general kicking ass and taking names.

It's very hard to peg percentages on it, especially because the second group is much more apt to talk of their success than the former group is to speak about their struggles. I'd say something like 70% of the class is happy with what law school has given to them. Not all of those people are going to big firms - a lot have government or public interest work they wanted from the beginning. The problem is that it's feast-or-famine. The other 30% (again, just a guess at the numbers) aren't dissatisfied with a 50K job, they're staring down 6-figure loan debt and have no employment prospects whatsoever. And it's not because they're not looking, not because their grades were awful, and not because they're unpersonable. Certainly a few have some or all of those characteristics, but for the most part some people just slipped through the cracks.

I know people who were no-offered after their 2L summer (back when firms were hit with tough times and couldn't bring the entire summer class on board) that haven't drawn a salary in over a year after graduation. Those people were on track to earn 160, and have been at 0.

There was a huge rush to medium sized and small law firms when the crash hit, but those firms had bad financial times too. Some people squeezed into such positions, but unemployment or profound underemployment still exist even for UVA law grads who are casting wide nets.

It's really weird to know soon-to-be CoA (and even Supreme Court) clerks as well as people who have no idea how they're going to make their student loan payments. Law school sometimes feel like a casino, especially because 1L grades had so much to do with it and the lack of feedback can make those feel extremely arbitrary and random. But if it's a casino, at least the odds are still pretty good at UVA. I really don't know what it's like at other schools, except that even friends at GW have reported difficulty landing big firm gigs from the top of the class and wide-spread un or underemployment.

The situation is bleak, which I'm sure contributes to a lot of the snark OP reels against. The cynicism has a lot to do with the fact that it takes a lot of exposure to friends, to law school, to the legal market, to statistics, articles, etc. before the reality of just how bad the market is can sink in. As a result it's easy to be jaded and hard to interact on a message board where every year thousands of people join because they think law has promise. They think a legal career will make them upwardly mobile, be satisfying, and come after an enjoyable 3 years of education.

They're not stupid to think that when they first poke around the forum and begin applying to law school, but they are almost all wrong. And that's hard to deal with.

JazzOne wrote:My 1L grades were solid, so I focused exclusively on biglaw. That almost turned out to be a huge mistake. I don't think other areas were any better, but I'm really not sure.

Jazz, are you at UT? and you almost struck out at OCI or what?

I do attend UT, and I didn't get my first offer until fairly late in the hiring season. My ratio of callbacks to screening interviews was horrible, so I must be a bad interviewer. I ended up with a job that is far better than anything I ever imagined, so I'm thrilled. But it was a stressful ride, to say the least.

haoledugan wrote:As a soon to be 1L who has now committed to 3 years of additional schooling, I have been searching for qualified insight into the current job outlook for recent law grads... I don't think I'm alone here. I would love to see questions answered without the undue sarcasm, snide remarks, and unsubstantiated claims so often a part of the other topics here in TLS Forums.

To start, I would be very interested in hearing from some 2L's, 3L's, and recent grads about their personal experience in finding legal work.

You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You should also know that I'm a snide bitch, but I refrained for this thread because you asked very nicely

It's hard to give any advice--especially "courteous, substantiated" advice--to such a broad question. The cliches are all essentially true:

(1) you should have asked about this before committing to "3 additional years of schooling";

(2) if you kick ass at a top school, you're probably just fine; statistically, say, 70% of people at top schools do not kick ass, and 190 out of 200 schools are not top schools; and

(3) the situation for the remaining 70% at top schools and 98% at non-top schools is too risky to be worth a $150,000 investment unless you (a) don't actually need to go into debt for one reason or another, or, (b) have a reliable guarantee of post-graduate employment, like a family firm.

That's it. Bam. There's no other magic. What else do you want? The only thing I can think of is some way to know whether you are going to be one of the top students. This isn't really random. For that, just assume your LSAT versus the school's median is somewhat indicative (statistical noise and internet anecdotes notwithstanding) and adjust for any concrete academic boosts you have--like many years of grad school or a Rhodes Scholarship or whatever.

If you realize that the shakedown from all this is, "you're fucked," well, better to face it now than becoming one of the angry people with a scamblog or posting at xoxo or jdunderground.

Anonymous User wrote:It's hard to give any advice--especially "courteous, substantiated" advice--to such a broad question. The cliches are all essentially true:

(1) you should have asked about this before committing to "3 additional years of schooling";

(2) if you kick ass at a top school, you're probably just fine; statistically, say, 70% of people at top schools do not kick ass, and 190 out of 200 schools are not top schools; and

(3) the situation for the remaining 70% at top schools and 98% at non-top schools is too risky to be worth a $150,000 investment unless you (a) don't actually need to go into debt for one reason or another, or, (b) have a reliable guarantee of post-graduate employment, like a family firm.

That's it. Bam. There's no other magic. What else do you want? The only thing I can think of is some way to know whether you are going to be one of the top students. This isn't really random. For that, just assume your LSAT versus the school's median is somewhat indicative (statistical noise and internet anecdotes notwithstanding) and adjust for any concrete academic boosts you have--like many years of grad school or a Rhodes Scholarship or whatever.

If you realize that the shakedown from all this is, "you're fucked," well, better to face it now than becoming one of the angry people with a scamblog or posting at xoxo or jdunderground.

So this is the kinda thread I'm trying to keep away from, and this sentence is the only acknowledgment it should receive.

I know a lot of people who are 3Ls or who graduated before me unemployed. They looked for legal work and often found something but nothing close to what they had hoped. Debt is a major issue. Many of the 2Ls I know are likewise struggling to find employment for next summer, and have all but given up on paid firm summer associate positions that could lead to full-time employment.

I also know people who are swimming in prestigious clerkships, got several offers for jobs at the fanciest law firms, and are in general kicking ass and taking names.

It's very hard to peg percentages on it, especially because the second group is much more apt to talk of their success than the former group is to speak about their struggles. I'd say something like 70% of the class is happy with what law school has given to them. Not all of those people are going to big firms - a lot have government or public interest work they wanted from the beginning. The problem is that it's feast-or-famine. The other 30% (again, just a guess at the numbers) aren't dissatisfied with a 50K job, they're staring down 6-figure loan debt and have no employment prospects whatsoever. And it's not because they're not looking, not because their grades were awful, and not because they're unpersonable. Certainly a few have some or all of those characteristics, but for the most part some people just slipped through the cracks.

I know people who were no-offered after their 2L summer (back when firms were hit with tough times and couldn't bring the entire summer class on board) that haven't drawn a salary in over a year after graduation. Those people were on track to earn 160, and have been at 0.

There was a huge rush to medium sized and small law firms when the crash hit, but those firms had bad financial times too. Some people squeezed into such positions, but unemployment or profound underemployment still exist even for UVA law grads who are casting wide nets.

It's really weird to know soon-to-be CoA (and even Supreme Court) clerks as well as people who have no idea how they're going to make their student loan payments. Law school sometimes feel like a casino, especially because 1L grades had so much to do with it and the lack of feedback can make those feel extremely arbitrary and random. But if it's a casino, at least the odds are still pretty good at UVA. I really don't know what it's like at other schools, except that even friends at GW have reported difficulty landing big firm gigs from the top of the class and wide-spread un or underemployment.

The situation is bleak, which I'm sure contributes to a lot of the snark OP reels against. The cynicism has a lot to do with the fact that it takes a lot of exposure to friends, to law school, to the legal market, to statistics, articles, etc. before the reality of just how bad the market is can sink in. As a result it's easy to be jaded and hard to interact on a message board where every year thousands of people join because they think law has promise. They think a legal career will make them upwardly mobile, be satisfying, and come after an enjoyable 3 years of education.

They're not stupid to think that when they first poke around the forum and begin applying to law school, but they are almost all wrong. And that's hard to deal with.

This is fantastic information and much appreciated (although I wish it weren't true). +1

haoledugan wrote:As a soon to be 1L who has now committed to 3 years of additional schooling, I have been searching for qualified insight into the current job outlook for recent law grads... I don't think I'm alone here. I would love to see questions answered without the undue sarcasm, snide remarks, and unsubstantiated claims so often a part of the other topics here in TLS Forums.

To start, I would be very interested in hearing from some 2L's, 3L's, and recent grads about their personal experience in finding legal work.

You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You should also know that I'm a snide bitch, but I refrained for this thread because you asked very nicely

haoledugan wrote:As a soon to be 1L who has now committed to 3 years of additional schooling, I have been searching for qualified insight into the current job outlook for recent law grads... I don't think I'm alone here. I would love to see questions answered without the undue sarcasm, snide remarks, and unsubstantiated claims so often a part of the other topics here in TLS Forums.

To start, I would be very interested in hearing from some 2L's, 3L's, and recent grads about their personal experience in finding legal work.

You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You should also know that I'm a snide bitch, but I refrained for this thread because you asked very nicely

2L OCI in a year and a half, bro

meh, that's why i said 2-3 years. hey, i'm playing devil's advocate, i never said i wasn't personally freaked out

paulinaporizkova wrote:You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You don't get it, do you? The short-term outlook might improve, or it might get a lot worse, but that's not what really matters. The long(er) term outlook for freshly minted law grads is unquestionably bad, and getting worse. This is a structural matter, and no amount of economic growth can change it. Law firms are getting leaner, clients are demanding more cost-efficiency, and refusing to pay for first year associate work. So lots of discovery jobs and other intro-level stuff is going overseas, or to commoditized law practices. At the same time, the price of a legal education is growing considerably faster than inflation or salaries. Debt loads are getting more oppressive, and interest rates remain high (and may go much higher still--hopefully not, of course). The overall supply of law grades is also rising, thus aggravating the supply/demand mismatch in the law labor market.

I could go on, but won't. The problems with the law economy are substantial, and go well beyond the way the economy is right now. Will an uptick in the general economy help legal hiring? Yes. But it won't solve any of the above, and those things are the real dangers.

paulinaporizkova wrote:You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You don't get it, do you? The short-term outlook might improve, or it might get a lot worse, but that's not what really matters. The long(er) term outlook for freshly minted law grads is unquestionably bad, and getting worse. This is a structural matter, and no amount of economic growth can change it. Law firms are getting leaner, clients are demanding more cost-efficiency, and refusing to pay for first year associate work. So lots of discovery jobs and other intro-level stuff is going overseas, or to commoditized law practices. At the same time, the price of a legal education is growing considerably faster than inflation or salaries. Debt loads are getting more oppressive, and interest rates remain high (and may go much higher still--hopefully not, of course). The overall supply of law grades is also rising, thus aggravating the supply/demand mismatch in the law labor market.

I could go on, but won't. The problems with the law economy are substantial, and go well beyond the way the economy is right now. Will an uptick in the general economy help legal hiring? Yes. But it won't solve any of the above, and those things are the real dangers.

no, that all makes sense to me. it depends on where you go to LS and how well you do there. part of the reason why shit is getting so bad for lawyers is because more and more law schools keep opening up every year and charging exorbitant amounts for a degree that is not going to mean shit.

paulinaporizkova wrote:You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You don't get it, do you? The short-term outlook might improve, or it might get a lot worse, but that's not what really matters. The long(er) term outlook for freshly minted law grads is unquestionably bad, and getting worse. This is a structural matter, and no amount of economic growth can change it. Law firms are getting leaner, clients are demanding more cost-efficiency, and refusing to pay for first year associate work. So lots of discovery jobs and other intro-level stuff is going overseas, or to commoditized law practices. At the same time, the price of a legal education is growing considerably faster than inflation or salaries. Debt loads are getting more oppressive, and interest rates remain high (and may go much higher still--hopefully not, of course). The overall supply of law grades is also rising, thus aggravating the supply/demand mismatch in the law labor market.

I could go on, but won't. The problems with the law economy are substantial, and go well beyond the way the economy is right now. Will an uptick in the general economy help legal hiring? Yes. But it won't solve any of the above, and those things are the real dangers.