OMEN - Harsh! You smitted me three times!! Honestly, you appear to me like that 1740's New England preacher Jonathan Edwards (author; "Sinners in the Hands..."). Even like the Inquisition - quick to judge and condemn. I hope smitting me that eases your aingst toward me. Okay Omen, you will get my reasons and evidence for belief in God, but it will take time to construct. Remember I'm lazy, I get distracted (sorry, you call it dishonesty) and don't have a ton of time. This shit ain't the simplist thing to whip out. If it was, you'd be a believer. Please allow me some time before giving me the Vulkan Death Grip again - or is it the 15' Darth Vader remote nerve pinch. No- it's the Ginsu knife chopping the can in two. I will send them to Velkyn, too. She's on a tear. BTW - Do you fall into my category 1 or category 2 type atheist? Also, please let me know why there is no God. You've been on my case so much, you haven't offered me your reasons for non-belief. So let's see them. Take as long as you need.

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

No, evidence for your beliefs being true. I already know you believe and don't care that you believe, I only care about why.

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, but it will take time to construct. Remember I'm lazy, I get distracted (sorry, you call it dishonesty) and don't have a ton of time. This shit ain't the simplist thing to whip out.

It should be as simple as providing evidence that you have grass in your backyard.

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If it was, you'd be a believer.

Only its ambiguity contributes to your imagined complexity in the subject..not to mention to the fact that belief more closely corresponds with the culture one grows up with, their family, birth rates, and geographical location on earth. If it were anything else, such as intellectual reasoning, it would spread differently per education and knowledge. However, on the contrary, education seems to correspond with not believing or less religiosity.

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Please allow me some time before giving me the Vulkan Death Grip again - or is it the 15' Darth Vader remote nerve pinch. No- it's the Ginsu knife chopping the can in two. I will send them to Velkyn, too. She's on a tear. BTW - Do you fall into my category 1 or category 2 type atheist?

I fall into no category, without your explanation as to what you think these things are.

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Also, please let me know why there is no God.

Why do I have to tell you why a god doesn't exist before you can demonstrate one to exist?

How do I even know what a god is?

How do I even know which god you're talking about?

Why are you treating 'god' as if it were commonly self evidently known as if it were an objective thing?

Why are you referencing 'god' in the first person with a capital G?

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You've been on my case so much, you haven't offered me your reasons for non-belief. So let's see them. Take as long as you need.

In ultimate humility, I do not believe what I do not know.

What do my reasons for not believing a claim have to do you arguing that your claim is true?

« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 04:13:26 PM by Omen »

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

I split athiests into two groups: 1) Those who are willing to accept a supreme maker, creator, judge but have seen no evidence... but are open to evidence they deem authentic. 2) There is 100% absolutely, positootly no god no matter what evidence is thrown their way. Those who fall into the #1 category, I suspect just might be, maybe, just maybe forgiven and offered salvation (I think the door is open on this one). Those who fall into #2, well I can't imagine any salvation.

Just found this.

I am neither category.

Category 1: A 'supreme being', 'god', and/or 'creator' has no coherent relative meaning to existent objective things. I cannot comment on the possibility of such a meaningless label.

Category 2: No two god claims are the same, the god label is purely subjective and where one context for a god claim entirely disproves that god claim may not be appropriate for another god claim.

"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

I'm quite happy to see what BSD has to "whip out". However, I am expecting all of the usual baseless claims by a theist I have seen for years. But hope against hope, I do look for something new and supported.

I, as an atheist, am looking for evidence, unambiguous facts, that supports the claims of theists. I was a theist and only believed because of misplaced trust in people who had indeed earned my trust in other things. Most, if not all theists, claim a variant of "just look around, my god made everything". Since many, if not all, religions claim this, only one of them can be right. How can we tell who are the liars and who is telling the truth? I see no evidence for any religion's claims, nor for ghosts, fairies, reptiloids, greys, or portly elves who slide down chimneys and deliver presents.

BSD's claim from the OP in this thread are the usual attempts to claim that atheists are liars and will not honestly consider evidence, so much for his "categories". It seems that this is paraded about since the theist must try to believe that their evidence is without question, no matter what. When it shows up to be faulty, they will try to attribute their failure to anyone else.

Omen is right. If the evidence for this god was so unambiguous and apparent without question, then why should it take any time at all? Why is it there are "apologetics" for this supposedly unmistakable god? Why is it that even Chrisitans cannot agree on the most basic things? We have BSD who is sure that his version of the Roman Catholic Chruch is the only right way to worship or understand this god, but he has no more evidence, so far, than any other believer. BSD, I'm waiting for you to support your claims. Your excuses of being lazy, distracted, and lack of time have worn thin, being repeated again and again, shortly thereafter followed by your vanishing from the forum only to appear again with the same nonsense.

I hope you don't try the same thing again.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

I have not gotten involved in conversations with you because Omen and velkyn, among others, have had it covered. But I'm suddenly inspired to contribute.

I'm probably a Type 3 atheist. Even if a god is real, he's not going to get any respec from me anyway, let alone worship. But he doesn't exist, so my failure to be impressed is of no consequence. My dissatisfaction with the religious message is not a rejection of a deity, but a rejection of the ideas and demands of the humans who invented the concept.

As velkyn mentioned, people tend to believe in a god because people they trust tell them to. Those folks got the same story from people they trusted. Many generations of folks who never question amazing claims make for traditions that are based only on that tradition. There is nothing else there. Never has been. Never will be.

I won't bother seriously listening to christians so long as tall they can do is come up with millions of individual interpretations of what their god and their religion is. Every christian that posts here has his or her own custom version of what believing is all about, and what they believe, and what the bible means, etc. And until a christian can explain how the perfect word of their god can have so many interpretations, most all arguments for a deity are going to fall on unconvinced ears.

An all-knowing god who deliberately creates faulty humans and then requires their praise to stroke his ego is a laughable thought. Except for the part where it harms minds and kills doubters and/or unacceptable variants of any groups religion. That a real god would favor desert dwellers over the much more established cultures in Greece, Rome, China or the Americas is too silly to contemplate. And a god who could cause turmoil via religious differences, and who then sat back and just watched as millions die needlessly is of no use anyway. My ability to worship a dude who says he loves me but is otherwise totally indifferent to every injustice and every wrong ever suffered by anyone is guilty of unnamable crimes. And those who can excuse his incompetence by calling it omnipo this or omnipo that are tools. Of the humans who perpetuate such myths.

If you feel you have an argument that dashes thoughts such as mine to pieces, please provide them. But if the best you can do is whine, your efforts will have no effect on those of us not trapped by whatever it is a christian has for thoughts.

It should be as simple as providing evidence that you have grass in your backyard.

Let's see where this can go...

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BSD: Okay Omen, I just mailed you some clippings from my yard.Omen response: I got your so-called "clippings" in the mail. I had them tested and all it tells me is that it is a mix of the Kentucky Blurgrass species with a 95% probablity rate that they come from Illinois Climate Zone 5a. This proves nothing.

BSD: Here's a photo of my lawn. See my kids play set? Isn't that cute? I helped build that. Look, there's my neighbors yard (man, he needs to cut it again. Grrrr!!)Omen: All I know is that this is a photo of a lawn. This proves nothing. And I don't appreciate the non-sequitor. Please keep this discussion on point.

BSD: Here is a video with me and my family playing in my yard with green grass. It's unmistakable.Omen: I don't know that that is you, I don't know that's your family, it's the same yard and house that are in the unproven photo.

BSD: Here's a letter from my tax log to the state listing my address, and I photo of my in front of my house listing the same address.Omen: I don't know that this tax record is authentic. You could have forged it. Yes, you are standing in front of a house with matching address, but I see no evidence of the street name.

BSD: Then drive up to my house and see for yourselfOmen: Even if I do, and I drive to your so-called house, I will not know that you actually live there and that it is your actual place of residence - it could be a relatives house that your take up residence for my visit. It sounds insane, but it is a possibility.

BSD: Ask police, ask my neighbors, see the utility bills.Omen: Utility bills can be forged. About the police and neighbors: all that is is people talking. They offer witness, but that is not proof. They can lie.

BSD: Then how do I prove I have grass in my back yard.Omen: You must provide enough evidence.

Is this at all accurate, Omen, if I try to provide evidence of grass in my lawn? Maybe you wouldn't go to this extreme in reality, but you conceivably could. At what point in this hypothetical example would you start to accept the truth and stop doubting? And why at that point, and not the point before it, or after it? You can ask questions about anything... even many widely accepted scientific theories have their doubters and skeptics. It depends on the person and how willing they are to accept evidence.

All I can do, or will do, if offer my reasons and evidence. You will doubt, criticize and deny probably everything I write. I don't care if you accept them or deny them, but they are my reasons and they are my evidence. Not a single point will be proof, but evidence. I plan to put this together like a puzzle. One piece will tell you the picture. But put enough of them put together in a logic manner, well for me proof is what it is.

I can't speak for omen, but I'd take just one fucking iota of evidence of anything supernatural occuring, ever.

BSD, your post was, IMHO, dishonest. You don't have all that for the belief you happen to believe because of where and when you happen to have been born and raised. All you have is just that, where and when you were born and raised. You know it.

BSD: Okay Omen, I just mailed you some clippings from my yard.Omen response: I got your so-called "clippings" in the mail. I had them tested and all it tells me is that it is a mix of the Kentucky Blurgrass species with a 95% probablity rate that they come from Illinois Climate Zone 5a. This proves nothing.

So you can send some of god's clothes, or a fingernail, or hair trimmings from god?

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BSD: Here's a photo of my lawn. See my kids play set? Isn't that cute? I helped build that. Look, there's my neighbors yard (man, he needs to cut it again. Grrrr!!)Omen: All I know is that this is a photo of a lawn. This proves nothing. And I don't appreciate the non-sequitor. Please keep this discussion on point.

So you can send Omen a picture of god?

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BSD: Here is a video with me and my family playing in my yard with green grass. It's unmistakable.Omen: I don't know that that is you, I don't know that's your family, it's the same yard and house that are in the unproven photo.

You've got video footage of god?

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BSD: Here's a letter from my tax log to the state listing my address, and I photo of my in front of my house listing the same address.Omen: I don't know that this tax record is authentic. You could have forged it. Yes, you are standing in front of a house with matching address, but I see no evidence of the street name.

You've got a picture of god writing something down in the bible?

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BSD: Then drive up to my house and see for yourselfOmen: Even if I do, and I drive to your so-called house, I will not know that you actually live there and that it is your actual place of residence - it could be a relatives house that your take up residence for my visit. It sounds insane, but it is a possibility.

Omen can go to heaven and talk to god for himself?

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BSD: Ask police, ask my neighbors, see the utility bills.Omen: Utility bills can be forged. About the police and neighbors: all that is is people talking. They offer witness, but that is not proof. They can lie.

Admittedly I've got nothing for this one.

Omen, I think you're missing one fundamental difference between BSD giving you evidence for having grass in his backyard and BSD giving you evidence for the existence of god: the bar for burden of proof for the existence of god should be higher for you than for grass in his backyard. After all, you've seen grass before, you've seen backyards before, and you've met people that have backyards with grass. Pretty sure you haven't seen an intangible, all-powerful, all-loving entity before.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Those objections that BSD presents as Omen denying his evidence for grass in his yard are pretty funny. However, most of us accept basic ordinary claims that people make online at face value.

We accept that magic miles is a guy from Australia. We accept that velkyn is female and from the US. We accept that atheola had some health problems and was in the hospital recently. I hope that you accept that I am a black college professor with one daughter. And so forth.

Now if any of us had to prove who we are beyond a reasonable doubt it might be hard, but we could do it because we all have the evidence. We all could be lying, but we probably are not. Because none of those claims is out of the ordinary, and we have no particular reason to lie about ordinary things.

Now, if I said that I was married to Sir Mix-a-Lot and had written the rap song Baby Got Back, or had flown on the space shuttle, or was a billionaire, you might have reason to be skeptical. Those are a bit out of the ordinary. Not impossible, but unlikely.

You would expect more than just my word on the subject, because people do lie about extraordinary things for many reasons. You might want to see a newspaper article on the internet that you can access yourself, backed up by a wikipedia entry and maybe a news video.

But if I said that I was married to an alien from Alpha Centauri and that my daughter had three heads, you have a right to be extremely skeptical. Why have you never heard of this before? Why have I and my alien family not been on the front of every paper in the world, been interviewed by every news organization in the world? The evidence should be beyond dispute on something so far out of the ordinary.

And if, when asked for evidence of my alien family I made objections, argued about terminology, told jokes, stonewalled, gave excuses and then disappeared from the website, what would you think? Would you think I really had an alien family or not?

That is the pattern we have seen over and over again with theists. They come here with claims of a three-headed alien child (or of a supernatural being of some other sort, like a god) and just expect us to say, sure, we believe you. No prob. No need for evidence of even the most rudimentary sort. Not even a news article that says Bat-Boy Lives!

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

It should be as simple as providing evidence that you have grass in your backyard.

Let's see where this can go...

Are you done with the strawman now?

When are you going to start arguing for your god claim?

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

I'm anxiously waiting for this 'evidence'.. I hope it's not the same crap like 'I have a personal experience with God, even though I haven't had any experience except my own...', or 'God spoke to me in a dream - he said 'Eat dark chocolate''...

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"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger.""If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me. Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

BSD, you’ve repeatedly claimed that you have evidence for your god. You’ve said in a PM to me that you would “crush” me with so much evidence for your god. And you’ve now said that you won’t provide this evidence for your god in this thread, made expressly for this act. I only see that you are delaying the inevitable, making excuses and doing anything so you don’t have to actually produce this evidence. All of the posts with your excuses could have been full of this supposed evidence you have. And they aren’t not.

You try to blame atheists for not accepting your supposed “evidence”. Well, BSD, do you accept the evidence that other theists have for *their* religions? Why aren’t you a Hindu worshipping Krishna or Shiva? A Wiccan worshiping the “Goddess”? Some version of animist who believes that there is a spirit in everything? If you don’t accept their claims of personal belief, unsubstantiated events, etc as *evidence*, do you understand why we don’t accept yours?

People can be doubters and skeptics of a lot of things, but those things don’t become invalid because one ignorant person wants to disbelieve them and who has no evidence to show that their disbelief is based on anything but willful ignorance and wishful thinking. I can say that I believe that gravity isn’t real but it’s only the earth goddess’s breath sucking us against it, but until I have evidence that Newton’s laws aren’t representative of how gravity really works, until I have evidence of this goddess and her breath, it’s just nonsense, the words of a crank or an idiot.

You claim you don’t care if we believe you but I don’t think that’s an accurate description of what you feel. If you really didn’t care, you’d not repeatedly claim that your version of your religion was the only right one repeatedly. You keep trying and lying and failing but you come back again and again with the same nonsense. I think there’s a reason for that and it’s not because you enjoy our company.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

BSD, you’ve repeatedly claimed that you have evidence for your god. You’ve said in a PM to me that you would “crush” me with so much evidence for your god. And you’ve now said that you won’t provide this evidence for your god in this thread, made expressly for this act.

How many years have we all been asking for decent evidence? No compelling evidence as of yet has been presented by anyone in all these years. If he has evidence that will crush us then I'd suggest going straight to CNN with it. So far, if we've ever been crushed with evidence for a god it's been more like getting hit with a down pillow.

This looks mighty familiar. Oh yeah, it is the more or less the same response I've seen from dozens of theists who claim to have evidence.

BTW I am God, I will give the evidence when I'm ready, and not in this thread.

But I will respond.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

BSD is probably going to use our waiting and waiting, and these posts, as evidence for his invisible god..Or he's trying to make a case that Open BSD is the basis of Mac OSX, and that Steve Jobs was the second coming..Either way, it's getting boring.

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"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger.""If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me. Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

<snip>Not a single point will be proof, but evidence. I plan to put this together like a puzzle. One piece will tell you the picture. But put enough of them put together in a logic manner, well for me proof is what it is.

Ah - I at least have something to listen to now...How do you have proof without evidence?I will tear apart your puzzle - I am the puzzle master, I will have you know..One piece of the puzzle does not tell the picture - only part of the picture. The whole of the picture has to be clear after it is put together in its entirety. Only then will I accept your puzzle pieces - you have to use all of them, or I will add the ones you don't..This should be entirely amusing...

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"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger.""If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me. Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

BSD has told me that he will write a college level paper/essay on why he believes as he does. He has said he will send it to me and Omen. He has also stated that he will crush me with his evidence of his god. He said this will take 6-8 weeks. So we should see something by the first of July. So far, he has asked me for what I know about the "something from nothing" problem. I have given him links to the usual physics sources and told him to ask the forum members if he needs explanations on anything.

This is taking him at his word. I advocate for waiting for this response. If he does not produce, he, and we, will know it.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

So far, he has asked me for what I know about the "something from nothing" problem. I have given him links to the usual physics sources and told him to ask the forum members if he needs explanations on anything.

OH BOY, this sounds promising.

I can see the false dichotomies and strawmen now.

"Atheist believe nothing created nothing..."

« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 02:00:24 PM by Omen »

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Well, I'm predicting judging upon his past posts ( both on the old forum and here ) that he has some pretty loaded ideas as to exactly what atheist believe. I suspect his primary argument won't be about arguing for his god claim at all and instead will resort to arguing against a strawman about atheism and just totally abandoning the god claim.

Case in point, his 'need' to have me tell him what kind of atheist I am and why I don't believe in his god. As if they were relevant to any argument whatsoever and are representational of a counter 'belief' system rather than non-belief in his claim.

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me