Thursday, September 3, 2009

Rifqa Bary Trial--Live Blog of the Proceeding

3:03 PM--Rifqa and her attorneys arrive. Her parents are not present. They are likely back in Ohio.

An overflow crowd is watching the proceedings in another courtroom via a video feed.

Attorneys for Rifqa, her parents, FDLE [Florida Department of Law Enforcement], DCF [Department of Children and Families] and a media outlet are in the courtroom.

An FDLE investigation report into this case was sealed today by the judge and the media will argue for its release. An FDLE attorney wants to know what is to happen to the report, which has not been released to either party.

3:15pm - Judge Dawson has entered the room. The parents are joining the hearing via speakerphone.

The judge requested if a date for mediation has been set. It has not, pending depositions in the case. Judge Dawson is pressing attorneys to move forward on mediation and not wait for depositions.

The judge is taking up the request of the Orlando Sentinel to be a party to the dependency case. The media outlet is responding to the judge's decision to seal an FDLE report on the claims made by the teenager.

Rifqa ran away from her Ohio home after she converted to Christianity from Islam and felt threatened by her father. The 17 year old is in foster care in Orange County.

FDLE wants the seal order clarified, since both parties have not seen it.

The attorney for Bary's father says "there is a need for information out there" and requests the judge allow the media more access to the family court's documents.

Her attorney argues against it, saying this is a "private matter."

The judge denied the Sentinel's request to be notified of proceedings in this matter. He did not curtail each party's right to talk publicly about the case, including the relase of documents filed in this case.

Rifqa's attorney, John Stemberger, said he prefers the court see the FDLE report, just completed today, and choose whether to release it to the parties. However, the judge said legal documentation usually works the opposite way with the parties getting it first.

DCF requests each party receive the FDLE report, but the contents not be allowed to be leaked to anyone else.

Judge Dawson ordered the report released to the parties and has given them 10 days to say why they would want to release it or keep it from others. After that, the documents would be made available under the normal restrictions of juvenile court.

A video tape of FDLE's questionng of Rifqa is part of the report.

Copies of the report are being handed to the lawyers.

The judge is moving on to the arraignment portion of this hearing. Both parents deny their daughter's allegations.

Attorney Stemberger is requesting the parents at the mediation, which would take place in Orlando. The judge said he would require their presence by phone, if they cannot afford to travel from Ohio.

After a meeting at the bench, the judge said "We have plenty of attorneys in this case, I'm not sure adding more would assist this."

However, he said, if Rifqa needs more attorneys, then he might allow it at a later time.

He is taking up a gag order requested by the girl's guardian.

The attorney for the Sentinel is being allowed to address the request. He is telling the court that gag orders are usually approved in jury trials. In this case, there is no jury and the judge will make the decision on Rifqa's request.

The gag order would not restrict the media from the court, but would limit what the parties can say about this case.

A DCF attorney says she is getting calls from children who are distraught about the media's coverage.

"There are adults who are parading this about the media," she said.

"This is absolutely causing problems in this case," she added.

Rifqa's attorney said the girl "wants my story to be told."

The attorney for Mr. Bary said the "hypocrisy is clear."

He said Stemberger is calling news conferences to make claims against the family, but now wants a gag order that would keep the parents from defending themselves.

"Where is his (Bary's) right to stand up and say "look not at my religion but look at how I raise my family?'"

"If you agree with this gag order, you are saying the other party cannot have their story told."

The attorney for Bary's mother added that "there's nothing in this (FDLE) report that supports the girl's claim."

The attorney for DCF cried out that his statement violates the judge's order not to release anything about the report for at least 10 days.

The parents' lawyer is attacking Stemburger and the Lorenzes for publicizing the case. He also earlier mentioned an attack on Islam and Muslims.

The judge is saying that both sides have gotten plenty of media coverage. He agrees that the more media attention Rifqa gets, the less safe she is. He grants the gag order, but only the attorneys. They are to discuss only procedural issues with the media. The parents' lawyer says English is their 2nd language, and he is gagging people who can speak for them. Judge replies that it is not his job to provide interpreters for people who want to talk to the media -- and that they can get other people to speak for them. After the case is resolved, he said, you can write your novel or produce your miniseries or do whatever you want to do.

Now they're discussing Rifqa's citizenship status. And now on to the question of jurisdiction. The mother's new attorney has just filed a new motion saying this court has no jurisdiction. The guardian ad litem says that has already been decided, and you don't get 2 bites of the apple. Now the parents' lawyer says that Ohio Child Protective Services won't file a case because they don't think she is in danger, but FL only has jurisdiction because Ohio has not filed a case, setting up a catch 22. He says that if they have to, they will file a case in Ohio charging that Rifqa is an unruly delinquent. The judge says essentially that if another case is filed, jurisdiction will be reconsidered.

Now they're discussing procedures regarding visitation rights. She has had supervised contact with her brother. The department (not sure of what) is seeking to limit visitation with Pastor Lorenz and his wife. Now the parents' lawyer is saying that the Lorenzes and their children and the Global Revolution Church should be restricted from seeing the child. He says that because of the gag on attorneys, Stemburger, who has a habit of grandstanding, will use the church to do his "dirty work."

Stemburger says Alahi (sp.?) -- the parents' lawyer -- is the one who is grandstanding, and that he has provided accurate information. He says that the Lorenzes' children are Rifqa's friends and provide her comfort. The judge says he will allow them to continue to visit Rifqa. Parents' lawyer says Mohamed Bary has not lost his parental rights, and he has a say in who sees his child. He says the Lorenzes hid Rifqa for two and a half weeks while Ohio was looking for her. The judge says that no allegations have actually been made against the Lorenzes' children. And he adds that even her own siblings should not be discussing this case.

The parents' lawyer says that mediation will be useless. "I'm trying to help the court" by saying this, he says. The judge says that he doesn't see how he is helping the court by complaining that mediation won't work. They agree to set a date for mediation. Also the guardian ad litem asks that the child start counseling, and that should later expand to family counseling. Some say she has already started it. The judge suggests medication, and the guardian says Rifqa objects to that. One of Rifqa's attorneys wants to know the persepective of the counselor.

The parents' attorney wants the judge to appoint an attorney ad litem for Rifqa. He says Stemburger is agenda-driven. The judge says he should file a motion to that effect, but that Rifqa wants Stemburger and he will respect that. He says that it seems that Alahi wants a new attorney who will have a different view from Stemburger's of what is in the child's best interests. But he will not appoint one now.

43 comments:

This case reminds me somewhat of the Gonzalos case way back when. But unlike the Gonzalas case that garnashed national media attention everyday for some time. This case seems to be lacking that amount of coverage. I wonder why?

i just spoke with one muslim, who follows the movement quran only and rejects all hadiths as fabrication. she says: "Even God in the Quran tells us not to follow the majority because they only follow conjecture.And not to accept any other book in conjunction with the Quran. Also he tells us not to accept information by anyone without verifying it on our own since we were given the cognitive ability to be able to.Even Muhammad forbade anything to be written other than the Quran, etc, etc".. so heres the link, which contains many works on this issue and has many interesting points:

No I am NOT losing faith, I have my faith in Islam and my fellow Muslim brothers, Osama Abdullah, Nadir Ahmed, Bassam Zawadi, Farhan Qurehsi, etc etc. I love my faith Islam and will do anything to spread it.

So I apologize to my friends David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi. I hope and pray you can accept my apology and we can move on. I appreciate all that they did for me and I believe I owe David Wood money for coming all the way from New York to Michigan. I will pay him back, I promise. Right now I am focused on school and not apologetics, but Nabeel I would like to debate you on the resurrection and who was Jesus and if you can arrange for a debate between me and James White or Sam Shamoun on these topics, NEXT YEAR I would greatly appreciate that.

Also Nabeel I appreciate you praying for me, I will pray for you to come back to SUNNI Islam.

Well,I think it is good Ehteshaam is ok with David and Nabeel but I think the best thing is for him to stop reading us for 6 months.Better to concentrate on his studies and forget us for half a year.It would be a vacation.

He already knows the essence of our arguments so he has got his knowledge up to date.

ON RIFQA

I am so glad she was not yet sent home.I hope she is finally allowed to stay (peace at last!) on SEPT 29.IF her father really loves her then he SHOULD LEAVE her alone!She is 17.

HE should study Christianity to see if his daughter is right.If I were a reporter I would ask him in an interview if HE agrees to the correctness of the AISHA story(the media is so ignorant).

If HE says YES,then to ask him WHY?To ask him if HE agrees to what is written in the Koran regarding captured NON-MUSLIM women.And so on.

IF he really loves his daughter HE should be willing to see IF she is right about Christianity.That is what a real father would do,a real man.

TARIQ RAMADAN is the most famous Muslim in the West.I used to think he was sincere.He is supposed to be an integrated Muslim,a model.

WHAT HE HAS DONE

He has:

1.Denounced the suicide bombers.2.Spoken against stoning for adultery.3.Said he is in favor of human rights,against racism,imperialism,colonialism.4.Denounced the Judeophobia prevalent among Muslims.5.Yet he continues with the thing that "Islamophobia" is bad.

He is BIG.He is supposed to be the BEST.

CAROLINE FOUREST

She is the BEST journalist of France.Very famous there.She has said what is so obvious,there is nothing wrong with "Islamophobia".It is the right of anybody to criticize Mohammed and the Koran and Islam.

In her book BROTHER TARIQ she says he is not sincere,that he is really in favor of Sharia Law for Europe.And that it is ANTI-HUMAN RIGHTS.She tells her readers of what is called "dissimulation" or takiya,a practice among Muslims.That RAMADAN does it.

MAGDI ALLAM

When ALLAM was a Muslim he was against Sharia Law and the Islamic terrorists.In his book LONG LIVE ISRAEL he also says (and remember,HE was then still Muslim) RAMADAN was not sincere.That he wanted Sharia Law.

Also ALLAM says in that same book that RAMADAN had spread the false rumor that he,ALLAM,was not a Muslim,but a Coptic Christian who was lying.

TARIQ RAMADAN IS FIRED

Till recently,and Nakdimon probably knows about it,RAMADAN was counselor for the city of ROTTERAM regarding Muslim integration.He was also a PROFESSOR at ERASMUS UNIVERSITY there.He was fired from both positions.

WHY?

He has also been working for an IRANIAN GOVERNMENT TV CHANNEL,having a WEEKLY show about Islam.

CONTRADICTIONS

1.He says he is against terrorists yet works for a TV channel run by a government that gives MONEY to the SHIA terrorists of HIZBULLAH.

2.He says he is for HUMAN RIGHTS and WOMEN's RIGHTS yet works for a TV channel run by the government that HELPS the anti-human rights and oppresor of women group known as HIZBULLAH.

Also the IRANIAN GOVERNMENT itself is a great violator of human rights,yet he works for their TV channel?

3.He is against stoning for adultery yet works for a TV channel that is run by the government that does it.

4.He says he is for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM yet works for a TV channel run by the government that persecutes and kills BAHAIS and converts to Christianity in Iran.

If somebody says he is against RACISM,why would he work for an organization run by the apartheid government of South Africa?Is that person really against racism.No.

WHY DID THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT HIRE HIM AT ALL?

Why not hire MAGDI ALLAM?He was proclaiming the same things as TARIQ RAMADAN?Of course:

1.No sane Iranian functionary would have approved of hiring MAGDI ALLAM(when he was still a Muslim).They would have said:"He is our ENEMY."

2.Also MAGDI ALLAM would NEVER have accepted the offer,he would have said it was like working for the mafia.IT would mean BETRAYING his ideals.

SO?

The Western media in general is like mentally challenged regarding some obvious things.The reason WHY the Iranian TV channel accepted RAMADAN and WHY he said YES to the idea is because he secretely AGREES with their ideas:Sharia Law for Europe and the world.

He said:"My public declarations are a dissimulation."CAROLINE FOUREST and MAGDI ALLAM were right.

But you see Gulam (and hope you will not find me personally offensive, that is not my intention),

that stuff about the prophet is not ripped from evilkoran.com or any islamic hate site, its taken from islamic sources.

Neither can you argue that negative references to Muhammad are tantamount to attack David Wood personally. How many islamic websites do not attack the Christian view of Jesus or Paul, someone whom Christians love dearly? Are you saying that attacking Paul is similar to write articles in which we attack Gulam personally? This comparison is mildly speaking absurd.

The point which Wood addressed is that muslims including yourself find it offencive when we adress the life of your prophet. The life of Muhammad contains elements which muslims are generally speaking embarresed to consider, hence muslims themselves find Muhammad's life offencive; that was the point.

My question then is, what's the point being a muslim? You might however approach Muhammad as we Christians approach e.g. the prophet David, a prophet of God and choosen by God, but an individual who committed great sins and attrocities. We view David as a typical sinner, not exactly the example to follow in a Christian context. However, if Muhammad is considered in this way, he is hardly worth following, he is hardly the example of the world or the zeal of prophets.

So either 1) Muhammad permitted slavery, rape of war prisoners and female slaves and permitted 60 year old men to marry and have sex with seven year old girls and hence a sinner, which then is offencive or 2) these matters are acceptable within the religion of islam, even today, but this ought to beg the question whether islam should not be exposed as a wicked religion, and then Gulam you of all people if you find this information offencive ought to reconsider your faith since you find the life of your prophet offencive.

Dear Ehteshaam Gulam... your wordes made me cry tears off love... may God open your heart... your words mean nothing unless they are in coherence with a change off deeds... lets wiate and see... perhaps you can follow brother monoria advice... take a vacation from this site: make a good digestion off whate you did and read aboutt islam from persona who are nott intoxicated and do not feel the urge to defende the indifensable and, then, come back...

may God, the Holy Trinity, bless you...

p.s.: can you tell us where we quouted muslims texts out off the context? can you tell us whate contexts there are in the qur'an and the hadiths? this woulde bee a great start to show us thate your words are together withe your deeds... more: saying thate you woulde quote from evilbible.com you are implying thate you do not habe read, for yourself the Holy Bible... perhaps you coulde do thate also iff you want to bee a respected muslim guro apologist... we Christians do habe read the qur'an and the hadoths: we do nott habe the need to go to anti-islam sites to find the rotten tomatos off islam: we habe founde them for ourselfs...

This is a partial list of honor killings that have occurred in Western Democracies by Muslim family members.

There is no reason to believe, nor any proof, that Rifqa's parents are honest when they say they have no plans to harm this young woman. If we give them the benefit of the doubt, it is only Rifqa who will pay the price for our ignorance.

Pray for Rifqa and every official involved in the decision making about her future, OR the end of her young life if we're in error.

All, three is something more going on here then what is being reported. Check what I discovered on Atlas Shrugs.

Rifqa Bery's father owns a high end Jewelery buisness. They live in a up scale affluent Ohio neighborhood were they rent a house. Do to the fact that they can not own a morgage.

On July 29th 2009 after, rifqa fled her father, Mr Berry liquidated his Jewlery Buisness, to the tune of $237,561.

After Rifqa's was found in Florida, the Berry's filed a motion with the Florida State court declaring they were indegent. Having no money they were both assinged public defenders at Florida tax payer expense.

Now a couple of questions.

1. Why after Rifqa Berry fled for her life did Mr Berry liquidate a successfull Jewlery buisness?

2. Where did the money go?

This to me very suspecious.It looks to me that Mr Berry was getting ready to leave the country with over $200,000.

My question then is, what's the point being a muslim? You might however approach Muhammad as we Christians approach e.g. the prophet David, a prophet of God and choosen by God, but an individual who committed great sins and attrocities. We view David as a typical sinner, not exactly the example to follow in a Christian context. However, if Muhammad is considered in this way, he is hardly worth following, he is hardly the example of the world or the zeal of prophets.

My Response: Muslims see Prophet Muhammad (p) as sinless, a man chosen by God to lead his people (the Arabs) in salvation and decency and bring back humanity to submitting to will of One God-- The God of Abraham. I think the best way to see it is judge Prophet Muhammad according to his times and NOT our times. Islam only makes sense in context, if you rip things out of context in Islam-- then yes it becomes ugly.

But if you want to ask me why I am a Muslim-- its because of a few reasons:

1)Islam is the only religion that has evidence for itself, its the only religion that can back its claims up (Science in the Quran, etc)

2) Prophet Muhammad performed miracles:

http://answering-christian-claims.com/Muhammad_miracles.html

(If he was a false prophet-- why would God allow him to do these things?)

3) Its the faith of Abraham-- Abraham was a monotheist. He submitted to the will of One God. Moreover the Jews never heard of trinity and the word trinity is never found in the New Testament.

4) I just don't understand Christianity. To me the Trinity makes no sense, Jesus worshipped One God, yet Christians worship him as God, Jesus lost faith(see Mark 15:34), etc. Plus if Jesus really did die for everyone then why can't we rape, murder, steal, etc. If you say, no we can't do these things because its wrong, then Jesus didn't die for all sins.

These are just of the reasons why I follow Islam-- of course there are many good things in Christianity, turning the other cheek, praying for the enemy, celibacy, etc. And I have nothing but the highest respect for my Christian friends such as Pastor George Siege, Mary Jo Sharp, Nabeel Qureshi, David Wood, Sam Shamoun, etc. But just because they are good people-- doesn't mean the religion they are following is correct.

Hence my Islamic preaching. I know Islam is right, and I can prove it.

I’m sure others will address your reasons for embracing Islam but right now in the context of this thread I’m more interested in your understanding of Mohammed.

You said:

Muslims see Prophet Muhammad (p) as sinless, a man chosen by God to lead his people (the Arabs) in salvation and decency and bring back humanity to submitting to will of One God-- The God of Abraham. I think the best way to see it is judge Prophet Muhammad according to his times and NOT our times. Islam only makes sense in context, if you rip things out of context in Islam-- then yes it becomes ugly.

I say

A few questions for any Muslim here

Would some of the things that Mohammad did be sin if you did them today ?

How do we decide which of his acts are examples to be followed today and which should be abandoned as outdated practices of his time?

Do you believe in an unchanging moral standard or are morals relative?

"4) I just don't understand Christianity. To me the Trinity makes no sense, Jesus worshipped One God, yet Christians worship him as God, Jesus lost faith(see Mark 15:34), etc. Plus if Jesus really did die for everyone then why can't we rape, murder, steal, etc. If you say, no we can't do these things because its wrong, then Jesus didn't die for all sins. "

total misrepresentation of our beliefs. heres how i see jesus, that is to say, agree with one guy who wrote sth like i am abt to write. if an omnipresent spirit wants to show his creation how much he loves us, the most logical way would be to become one of us , dwell among us, teach us everything, show us what we mean to him, as well as what he means to us. in islam the perfect solution is obviously to send one witness account who would (with all due respect) terrorize ppl around him and sleep with children at absurd age. well christian god doesnt find that solution acceptable. jesus didnt sin. he was perfect. now, of course that the reaction of the corrupt men would be to whip , humiliate him and eventually kill him bc he exposed them. so the only difference why me and u didnt do that is bc of circumstances. lets not forget what jesus said on the cross: "father forgive them for they dont know what they do". this and only this logically testifies that god loves us no matter what we have done. u see that love of our creator is infinite and uncoditional (sth u cannot find from allah). now, how does christianity function: 1) repent 2) be immersed in the relationship with jesus. if u do these both things sincerely holy spirit will lead u and ull produce a good fruit. many ppl say that christianity is a relationship and not religion :) lets not forget that in christianity all sin must be punished as well, and thats just what happened on the cross. ppl also fall into giult and deep down in their hearts they think that god wont forgive them. well, he will. bc he gave as a proof and guarantee! he says we re his delight. and ur god loves u so much, so that according to quran ull all taste hell. with all due respect, for us christians allah is veryyy illogical.

Etheshaam Gulam saide: «Muslims see muhammad as sinless»... really? thate will explaine whi yhey do nothin against all off those who do the vile things he did: rape, habe sex with a pre-pubescent girl, lie, kill, order killings, theft... ok... we are getting somewhere...

Your attempt to denie those facts in your site is just hillarious... you cannot recreatte history, you cannot build a bridge only withe water, you cannot denie thate the sun exists... you can try, butt you'll ALWAYS faile...

you also saide: «I think the best way to see it is judge muhammad according to his times and NOT our times»... since the OT, and eben before in other legislatior penal codes, and eben att the time off muhammad, rape, killings, lieying, ordering killigns was a sin and a dredfull thing to do... that's why menu people refused to accept the prophetwood off muhammad, and had this not ordered the killings off many off these and muhammad nowadays woulde be just the sinonomous off a lunatic arabian camael driver...

Etheshaam Gulam saide: «Islam only makes sense in context, if you rip things out of context in Islam-- then yes it becomes ugly»... the preoblemm is thate we do nott live in the time off muhhamad and still muslims are presenting muhhamad life as the example to bee folowed EBEN TODAY... thaks to show us thate being a true musmim (follow muhammad's example) is a bery egly thing... we all habe realized thate before... lets hoppe you'll also...

Etheshaam Gulam saide: «Islam is the only religion that has evidence for itself, its the only religion that can back its claims up (Science in the Quran, etc)»... sorry... that wont stick... science in the qur'an is a myth thate habe been refutted eben here in this blogg many times... butt the Bible as also science miracles and we habe presented them here many times also... more: islam cannot defend its claims because its claimes are easily reffuted with historical, archeological, philosophical and theological arguments... more: all the claims off islam are codified in a book thate was dicatated bie a lyier, a killer, a theft, a person who had sexual intercourses withe a pre-pubescent girl... whate credit can habe such a book?

Etheshaam Gulam saide: «muhammad performed miracles»... really? likke the split off the moon? loool... so, why woulde muhammad say thate the ONLY miracle he did was to present the qur'an? and why does nott the qur'an present any miracle made bie muhhamad? remeber: the ascension into heaven was an act made bie allah unto muhamamd, nott an action operated bie muhhamad... all the "miracles" you presented (cof., cof., cof.,...) were invented llater by the muslim apologistes to defend the prophetwood off muhammad... in his time no one had eber assisted or eard off a miracle performed bie muhhamad... more: many persons, many false prophets (like muhammad) and eben satan could perform "miracles"... the question is: woulde these be made by the power off God or bie the power off satan?

Etheshaam Gulam saide: «Its the faith of Abraham-- Abraham was a monotheist. He submitted to the will of One God. Moreover the Jews never heard of trinity and the word trinity is never found in the New Testament... wahte? teh faith off Abraham is the faith on YHWH (God as a name: He's nott an anonomous divinity), nott on allah (meanin, at the least, "divinity")... muslims claims aboutt this are hilarious: Abraham neber had faith in allah... You saide thate the jews neber heard off trinity? really? whate do you call Paul, Peter, James, John and other followers off Jesus? muslims? hindus? were they atheists? aboutt your filo-jehowas witnesses claimme thate the name "Trinity" is nott in the Bible, where is in the qur'an the "shahada"? can you see the absurdity off this claim?

butt the best (worst) was reserved to the end. Etheshaam Gulam saide: «I just don't understand Christianity. To me the Trinity makes no sense, Jesus worshipped One God, yet Christians worship him as God, Jesus lost faith(see Mark 15:34), etc. Plus if Jesus really did die for everyone then why can't we rape, murder, steal, etc. If you say, no we can't do these things because its wrong, then Jesus didn't die for all sins»... Ehtesham: can you understand "light" or "water"? Light is one in nature and three in insepareble constitution att the same time: wave, corpuscular and radiation... water is one in nature and three in states thate can coexist att the same time: solid (ice), liquid (water per se) and gas (water vapour)... eben in natture we habe the trinity! Jesus incarnated in an obedient jew woulde He not worship God? woulde you wante God to be an atheist?... do you not speak with yourself when you're thinking? are you an anormal person who does nott habe interior speach? I hoppe not... and where in Mk 15:34 is saide thate Jesus lost His faithe? Are you simply playing dumb? He is starting to recite psalm 22 (23), which, as you can see iff you read itt, one thate expresses the total trust off the belieber eben when eberything would made someone to saie thate God did nott exist...

Etheshaam Gulam... the respect we habe to you is proportinat to the respect you express to deserve... and you insist in asking us all: "do nott take me serious, I'm just plauing dumb"... can you start showing thate islam is right? so far you did no such thing...

Hi Ehteshaam Gulam... still refusing to interect... afraide? incapable to change your muslim attitude off ignoring the truth? and still choosing to insultte people by calling whate professor David and Doctor Wood wrote as "Garbage" and "crap"?

I saide thate your deeds woulde habe to follow your words off repentence... butt not only the deeds did nott follow, butt your wordes also became infamous... to sad...

I’m having a very hard time understanding your position. Please help me out

I read the your link it your main claim seems to be simply that

quote:

We conclude from all the evidence cited above that Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) was nineteen years old when she joined the Holy Prophet as his wife in the year 2 A.H., the nikah or betrothal having taken place five years previously.

end quote:I’m not qualified to address the merit of your evidence but it makes very little difference to my inquiry whether she was 6 or 15 we still have an old man betrothing a young girl. Such a thing is still disgusting

Imagine someone the age of Pope Benedict XVI betrothing Miley Cyrus. Such a thing would be a world wide scandal even if they waited till she graduated high school to consummate.

This brings up the same questions I’ve asked before. Let me ask them again in light of your claim

1)Would it be a sin for an old man today to become engaged to a 15 year old girl and consummate the marriage when she was just nineteen?

2)Since I (as most folks in the west) think such a thing would be sinful am I justified in rejecting Muhammad’s claims to be the finial prophet in light of his flawed moral compass ?

Recently AMANA SHEIKH has been attacked in youtube in the sense that a Muslim has made videos of a vulgar and even pornographic nature using a variation of her name(Amana Shiekh).I write this so that you will know it has nothing to do with her.

Osama like a week ago made the comment that in the NT they always called God Eloh,not Yahweh.

The reason is that Yahweh was considered too holy to pronounce.But in JEREMIAH the future Messiah is called YAHWEH TSIDKENU(Yahweh is Our Righteousness)

NEVER BEFORE OR SINCE

NEVER in the OT or in any Jewish writing is a PERSON calledYAHWEH.I mean using the COMPLETE name of Yahweh.This is 100% proof the Messiah would be....none other than Yahweh.

AHMAD DEEDAT

He died never believing in Jesus as God.His arguments are weak.I have read them,he knew nothing of the HISTORICAL METHOD(like a scholar should).Proof 100% is that he NEVER learned what any seminary student learns right away:

That ONLY-BEGOTTEN(monogenes in Greek) in the NT never refers to a BIOLOGICAL son regarding Jesus.It means "unique".In doubt:ask the people of the JESUS SEMINAR,or BART EHRMAN,or RICHARD CARRIER or ROBERT PRICE.Ahmad Deedat was not a scholar and Muslims should recognize his arguments are weak.

Brother Ehteshaam Gulam: assalaamu 'alaykum. I have been reading with great care your latest posts. Being myself a willing defender of the image of the Holy Prophet (saw) and of Islam, I just have some few words to you: forget being a Muslim apologist. You're no such thing. I even have doubts if you’re a devout Muslim or only a westernized Muslim that loves to gather around kuffar like Wood and Nabeel. Your words are only doing bad things to Islam. Some of us are even thinking to make you a “special reception” to express our concerns about what you’re doing. Just leave this satanic blog that I only survey in order to defend Muhammad (saw) and Islam. And remember: Allah knows best. If you want to change some words with me you can email me.

What the (insert your favorite cuss word here) are you talking about? Have you been to my website? I love my faith Islam, Prophet Muhammad (p) and the Muslim ummah. Go to my site. Its very professional and organized with scholarly references. I sacrifice much time and effort to promote Islam while you waste away arguing with some of these people. I also like being a Muslim Apologist along with my friends Nadir Ahmed, Farhan Qureshi, Bassam Zawadi and Osama Abdullah.

No I am not a "western" Muslim-- I know my roots. I know my ethnic background. This is just silly. Yes I did make some mistakes her and there and say some silly and stupid stuff, and David Wood caught that and exploited it, and a hadith but whatever its done and gone. I did say some bad stuff in the past about the young age of Virgin Mary-- but whatever its done.

Its time I forget it and move on, and I suggest you do the same. Instead of throwing out insults to Nabeel and David rather we should refute their arguements against Islam. And I also never did any personal attacks to anyone, the only time I did was Clay Jones on Facebook, and I immediately apologized for it. He didn't care but for some reason Nabeel took it too seriously and exploded. But whatever its done, and I don't care about it.

You obviously have some sort of venom or hate for me. Put it away, that's not how the Islamic ummah works.

I also don't see why either Muslims or Christians should "black list" me-- I AM ON THE MUSLIM SIDE. I spend lots of time and effort making sure I defend Islam and Prophet Muhammad (P), what more do you want? Just because I made some mistakes here and there, (and I fully apologize to David Wood and Nabeel--yes I was wrong) and just because I am friends with Nadir Ahmed, doesn't mean I am a "bad" Muslim. Come on.

BTW Muslim Phantom, You call this blog "satanic" yet you hang out here? There are some good people here such as Hogan Ejjah, Semper Shamlom, Royal Son, etc.

If this blog is so "satanic" why come here to defend Prophet Muhammad (p)? You think the "demon" possessed readers here are going to change their minds when they read your rebuttals? Can you see your own inconsistencies and hypocrises?

first let us set the common platform to discuss, you should agree that the god is one not triune god then you may post your questions to muslims about muhammed(PBUH). do you agree?

I say:

I and all Christians agree that God is one. Belief in the Trinity does not conflict with this fact in the slightest. That you think it does shows that you haven’t taken the time to understand the doctrine.

Perhaps you should try and understand what Christians actually believe instead of setting up a straw man of your own making.

As far as my denying the Trinity before you answer goes. Are you really saying that before you can answer questions I must deny God’s revelation of himself? My ethics, in fact everything I know about reality is rooted in what God has chosen to reveal to us. If I refused to accept his revelation it would be impossible for me to know anything about anything.

If I were to do that I would have absolutely no standard by which to evaluate your answers. It would be just my fallen opinion verses yours. Two sinners putting ourselves in the place of God. No progress at all is possible in such a case.

From what I understand Mohammad did not require that Christians cease being Christian before he would dialogue with them.

The benefits offered in Psalm 91 is conditioned on the righteous ones request for aid.

Quote:When he calls to me, I will answer him (Psalms 91:15a)

The father would not save the Son against his will any more than he will send a man to heaven who does not want to go.

Jesus did not ask to be saved from death on the cross. If he had done so God would have saved him. It would have proven that he placed his own wishes above the father thus disqualifying him from being the messiah.

Jesus himself points this out.

Quote: Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?" (Matthew 26:53-54)

In fact one of the reasons that God loves Jesus enough to grant him his requests is because he did not consider his own life to be more important than his mission.

Joh 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. Joh 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."

(See also phip 2:6-11 and Matt 26:39)

besidesThe fact is that God did save the Messiah from death, It’s called the resurrection !!!!!!!!!!

check this out

Quote:

this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope. For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.' "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. (Acts 2:23-32)

I was looking up more information on the Rifqa story so I would know how to better pray for her today and I came across this blog...

I must say that I am quite disappointed. My intention is not to point fingers - but if we Christians are about love, why are we spending more time debating Muslims rather than loving them and more importantly praying for them? Is not our greatest weapon through prayer?

It is quite disheartening that we are spending more time debating, generalizing, and tearing down the Muslims than we are praying for them, praying for Rifqa, and praying for Jesus' name to be exalted above all names.

Your claims are shortsighted and unbiblical. Did Jesus simply sit around praying for people and loving them? Is this what the apostles did? Have you actually read the New Testament? Jesus and the apostles were constantly challenging false teachers and refuting them. Apollos was said to have "vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate."

Yet somehow we're doing something wrong when we confront Islam and refute it, and especially when we debate. It saddens me that American Christians have done such a tremendous job weakening Christianity that Nabeel and I are somehow considered bad for following the example of Jesus and the apostles.

My claims that prayer is our most powerful weapon are shortsighted and unbiblical? Jesus didn't come to debate and refute - He came to restore His kingdom, to restore relationship with His people...

By claiming that prayer is our most powerful weapon and that we should pray (and fast) for the Muslims rather than trying to argue with them intellectually would be a far more effective approach.

Let me make clear that I didn't call you out for refuting. I am, however, stating that the condition of America would be quite differeint if a) we were genuinely concerned about our Muslim brothers and sisters coming to know the Truth and b) humbled ourselves and prayed for them.

I'm not going to debate Christianity, I have nothing to prove. Just simply making a point that perhaps prayer should be one of our top priorites...

i inadvertently published before i had finished the post,,, so, continuing~

He died for me, I live for Him said... deleted text...

My intention is not to point fingers - but if we Christians are about love, why are we spending more time debating Muslims rather than loving them and more importantly praying for them? Is not our greatest weapon through prayer?

It is quite disheartening that we are spending more time debating, generalizing, and tearing down the Muslims than we are praying for them

ubiqitiouserendipity says:

dear brother/sister in Christ:

there seems to me to be a whole lot of insinuation and assumption in your post. your "if" we Christians are about love insinuates that we Christians may not be about love. you also seem to assume a few things:

1. that debating with heretics and pagans and atheists is not loving.

2. that Christians here are "tearing down" the mohammedans.

3. that we Christians are spending more time doing all these nefarious deeds to these poor mohammedans than we are spending time praying for them.

how trite of you to speak for our hearts, and our prayer lives, dear brother/sister in Christ.

kind of ironic coming from someone who says: "my intention is not to point fingers." actually you didn't point fingers, per se,,, you waved your whole hand at the lot. are you really a Christian, or a mohammedan in drag?

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