i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

Originally Posted by melvin_peebles

I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.

It's not worth it. The last time I saw "Grand Master" Simon he was being led to his hotel room by his wife. I heard him say that he didn't know where he was right before they came into view and saw me.

This was at the last "Meditation Seminar" that I attended before I bolted.

"THE TEMPLE TRANSCRIPT" EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY of OLAF EMIL SIMON taken before J.B. Snow, Esq., Official Court Reporter/Examiner, at the offices of Shtabsky Tussman, 400 Oxford Tower, Edmonton, Alberta, on the 10th day of March, A.D. 1995. IN THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH OF ALBERTA JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF EDMONTON NO. 9303 21120 BETWEEN; RICHARD SHERGOLD AND ARGOLD HOLDINGS LTD. Plaintiffs - and - OLAF SIMON, D. JUNE SIMON, VERITAS INTERNATIONAL PUBLISHING LTD., TEMPLE RUNG FU STUDIOS INTERNATIONAL LTD., SEAMAC CANADA INC., DERECK PIERCEY, DERCAL HOLDINGS LTD., MARK SMITH, AND BRIAN STOKOWSKI Defendants EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY of OLAF EMIL SIMON taken before J.B. Snow, Esq., Official Court Reporter/Examiner, at the offices of Shtabsky Tussman, 400 Oxford Tower, Edmonton, Alberta, on the 10th day of March, A.D. 1995. D.G. Groh, Esq./Q.C. Appeared for the Plaintiffs A. Oshry, Esq.Appeared for the Defendants p^ QerCourt Reporter SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta OLAF EMIL SIMON, having first been duly sworn at 2:06 p.m., examined by D.G. Groh, Esq., Q.C., testified as follows: Q MR. GROH; Sir, are you the Olaf Simon who is named as a defendant in the Statement of Claim issued in Court of Queen's Bench Action No. 9303 211207 A Yes. Q And you are also produced this afternoon I understand as an officer of the defendant Temple Rung Fu Studios International Ltd.? A Yes, I guess so. Q And your answers will be binding on that corporate defendant? A Depending what you are asking me. Is that right, depending on your question? Do you change from companies back? Q What I am asking you is -- A In general. Q What I am asking you is this. When you give evidence that the answers you give will be binding on that particular corporate defendant. Temple Rung Fu Studios International Ltd., and perhaps we can just have a break and Mr. Oshry can explain to you what that means. (Discussion off the record.) Q MR. GROH: After discussing this matter with your counsel, sir, your evidence will be binding SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta on Temple Kung Fu Studios International Ltd., is that correct? A Yes, sir. Q And you have just taken an oath. Is that oath binding on your conscience? A Yes, definitely. Q Now, are you the husband of the previous witness who is also a defendant in this action D. June Simon? A Yes, I am, yes. Q Was she your wife also in 1988? A All along. Q How long have you been married? A You got me. 27 I think. If it is 29 you wouldn't hold it against me? Q No, sir. MR. OSHRY: That is years? MR. GROH; I was going to ask that. A Yes. Q Do you know what position you hold in the company Temple Kung Fu Studios International Ltd.? Are you an officer? A President is that what you are referring to? Q That's it. A Yes. Q -And you are now? A Yes, I think, yes. Nobody replaced me. Q And you were in November of 1988? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta A All along, yes, sir. Q Now, throughout this examination I am going to refer to some companies, and I may refer to them by some short forms rather than their full name, and I would like to run over those with you if I may. If I refer to either Tim-Ed Ventures or Veritas International Published Ltd. simply as Veritas will you understand who I mean? A Yes. You allow me a question? Q Please, go ahead. A I was overseeing more the publicity side of it. I don't really know too much about the individual companies. I think what transpired there unless -- you can ask, and if I can oblige you I will, but the companies I knew very little. I really didn't care about the companies. I cared about the people who ran the companies, Q You can only do the best you can in answering my questions. A Okay, fine sir, gotcha. Q I simply want to make sure that if I refer to Veritas you will understand that -- A I know that is the Edmonton company, the Edmonton company, and there was another one his Argold I know that. Q Let me go through them one at a time, please? A Okay. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta Q If I use the term Veritas you will understand that I am referring to the company who is a defendant Veritas International Publishing Ltd. which I understand has had a name change to Tim-Ed Ventures? A Yes. I don't know -- Q You will understand that I am referring to that company? A To that, okay, yes. But if you would do me a favour and maybe tell me who owned the company it helps me. Q I will do my best. A Okay. Q If I refer to or use the term Argold will you understand A It is Richard's. Q Pardon me? A It is Richard's. Q Yes, you will understand that I am referring to Argold Holdings Ltd.? A Okay. Q And that is okay with you? A Yes, sir. Q And if I refer to Temple Rung Fu Studios International Ltd. as TKI will you understand -- A Yes, I would, sure. Q That is all right with you? A Fine^ sir. Q If I refer to Dercal Holdings as Dercal you will understand who I am referring to as well, will you? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta A Yeah, I got to -- this is no -- let me think. The company of Dereck, right? Q That's right. And, sir, if I refer to those and you have any question because you can't remember which company is which please ask me. A They changed them around, yeah. Q Now, your date of birth is January 9, 1929, is that correct? A No, my date of birth is January 20, '29. Q January 20, 1929? A Yeah. Q Where were you born, sir? A In the -- on the -- east Prussia. Q In what is-now Germany? A No, it is Poland now. We lost that. It is gone. We lost the war. We lost all kinds of things. I would actually be a Polish citizen if I would be there. Q I have seen references to you in which you are referred to as Dr. Simon? A Yes. Q Do you have a medical degree? A No, I have studied in Gena University when I came back from war. After a while I spent time in prison, and I studied in Gena and was given a doctorate in Gena in 1949. Q That was a doctorate in what area? A It was a literary achievement. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta Q And what was the name of the university, I'm sorry? A Gena. Q Can you spell it? A G-E-N-A. It is the same university where Karl Marx studied. Q Does that university still exist to your knowledge? A It was in East Germany. It should still be existing. It change hands after the -- Q Do you have a copy of your doctoral degree? A No, sir, no. Q You don't? A No. May I make some reference to this? Q Please go ahead. A At that time I was given the National Prize for Literature in 1949 and was awarded the degree and shared the prize with 20 other people. And I worked at that time in a student body in the underground against the Communist government, and there were some extraordinary activity going on, was some extraordinary activity going on. And I finally fled there. I had to go to West Berlin before this silly wall went up. Q Now, do you currently reside in Grand Forks in the Province of British Columbia? A Yes, sir. Q Do you have any residence in Alberta? A No, I used to live here. Q But not currently? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta A No, no, no present residence. Q Would I be correct if I suggested that your current occupation was that you were retired, would that be correct? A Fair, yeah. Q When did you first come to Canada? A Landed immigrant 1960, Quebec City. Q And did you come from Germany with a person by the name of Margie Hilbig? A Correct. Q And other than your native what is now Poland and in coming to Canada have you lived anywhere else in the world? A For a while I was all over the world. I was in Russia in a prison camp, and I escaped from prison camp and surrendered to the British. Firstly, I was in an American prison camp, was discharged home. When I crossed the border I was already properly discharged. The Russians kept me the second time. MR. OSHRY; Mr. Groh, are you really interested in what happened in the 1940s? A Oh, I can tell him. Q MR. GROH: I was just wondering if you had lived anywhere else in the world. If the witness feels this is a proper way to answer -- A I was in a prison camp. I don't know, it was not SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta living really. Q I understand your reference. What I am specifically interested in, sir,, is have you ever lived in China? A No, lived in China, no. I travelled. I was escaping not through China but through Mongolia. Q Now, I understand that prior to your coming to Canada in approximately 1960 that you had studied boxing in Germany, is that correct? A Well, you know. Q On an amateur level? A If you allow me to -- you phrase it -- studying is a -- I was very good at it, but I didn't have a master to study boxing with, no. I was an amateur boxer, yeah. Q Were you a practitioner or a student of the martial arts prior to coming to Canada? And let me clarify that. By martial arts I mean the oriental martial arts? A It wouldn't apply because there were no places to practice. This wasn't known. At that time there were none but Judo was there. The other arts were really not known. They were not, if I may use the word, they were not on the market. So that wouldn't apply. But I was well trained in especially Japanese hand-to-hand combat which is not the martial arts as we understand it today. Q But your training in Kung Fu came after 1960, did it? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 10 A No, before. Q Where did you receive that training? A And that was not training as we understand it today. Uncle Yen was a friend of our family. He taught us or me especially some of the moves. He made me a bow and arrow and helmet and this, so I got introduced in the rudiments of the Shaolin concepts. Q Was that when you were a small child? A Six years old, yeah. Q Did that continue for any length of time? A Well, yeah, for quite some time off and on. We lived in the diplomatic quarters in the Tier (phonetic) Garden, near the Tier Garden. And the Chinese embassy was not too far away so that. would -- I would think to the -- three or four years I would think from there on in but with interruptions, sir. I mean to me this was not a training but a play thing. Q And was that the extent of your exposure to oriental martial arts before you came to Canada? A Correct, yes. Q Now, you mentioned Uncle Yen. I was going to ask you if you could identify a person by the name of Master Yen. Was that the same? A Well, I think. Q Are we talking about the same person? A Well, it would be the same person. If you are talking about the -- I don't know where master comes from, but SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 11 I think all these people were masters without having them to qualify as being that. To me I think or to anyone you see an old person you would think he is one especially if they are Chinese. Q Did you ever train in the martial arts in China? A No. Q Did you ever attend the Shaolin monastery? A Attend the monastery? You can't attend it, sir. Q Have you ever been to it, sir? A To the monastery, no, no. Q I have heard -- A There is nothing left. It burnt down. Q I have heard references to people referred to as the Lee brothers. Does that ring a bell with you? A Lee brother. I know a Frank Lee, but I don't know a Lee brothers. There was an Edmonton person Frank Lee, and I helped this man to get on the international tournaments here. He had no access to the United States so I introduced him to the tournaments. And at one state in this era, the very end, I think '72, I owned the world's largest tournament in Long Beach. I was the owner of it. Q Did you and this Frank Lee did you study together or train together? A I think we exchanged knowledge, yes, but you know studying, there is a lot of envy in this field. So he was a very ambitious person, rather friendly guy, but SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 12 he stayed away from me quite a bit. He liked to hit, and I didn't like to take it, I didn't like getting hit. Q And I understand that. So you and Mr. Lee were not training partners on an ongoing basis? A No, you couldn't really say;, no, I think it wouldn't be a fair statement that. we were training partners. We exchanged knowledge, knowledge at lengthy time. Lengthy, maybe how many hours, maybe 100 hours or so all together in the whole lifetime maybe. Q Now, I understand that when you came to Canada you first came to the province of Quebec. Then you stayed there for about six months, and then moved to Toronto? A No, no, I landed there only. It was an affair of four hours. You had to leave the boat -- first the citizens left. The immigrants had to stay. And then the immigrants finally were allowed out for processing, and then back on the boat to Montreal the same

day. Q So you went to Montreal, and did you stay in Montreal for about six months? A No, sir. I had left I remember, and I had to go quickly to find a place to sleep. The last money I used was a plane ticket to Toronto. I had . I arrived at night and I had left. Midnight I arrived. Q Did Ms. Hilbig also go to Toronto with you? A Yes, yes. SNOWS COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 13 Q And did you and Ms. Hilbig stay in Toronto for about a year? A Pretty fair to say, yes. Q And then the two of you moved to Calgary? A Yes. Well;, we didn't move. We left in a car.. We drove by car. We had no moving or anything. Q And in Calgary a house was purchased,, and you stayed in part of the house, and she stayed in part of the house, correct? A Correct, yes. We bought a house eventually. We first rented. Q Now, in approximately 1961 is that when you first started to study oriental martial arts in earnest? A Well, this wouldn't be misleading. I worked privately and studied the art quite seriously because once a person knows sets or skills one can repeat them without any instruction. As a matter of fact if I may give you a valid concept, this young man if he is a master in his own right if he is a master and the master degree is that of a Fifth Degree, not higher, there are no higher masters after that. They are prestigious degrees. They have nothing to do with mastery any longer. He is master in his own right. And if he chooses to go on his own he could call himself rightfully master. He could change, add whatever he sees fit. That would be a fair assumption. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 14 So there was no instrument on the market which identified skills. The Chinese had no belt system. The Japanese had a belt system. We had a real problem in North America to adopt the Chinese art to a certain regiment. So the Chinese didn't give belts like 1, 2, 3; 4, 5. The Japanese were rather very orderly. So we tried to copy the Japanese as best as possible for obvious reasons. If they could produce a person with a Fourth Degree, welly Six is higher than Four, and One is higher than Three. So if Kung Fu -- a master by his own right is a master who can if he is challenged or -- somebody else challenges this person in the Chinese concept then he better be trained. He could call himself actually a master. It would decide whether or not he was -- could hold his own or not. Like in the old standards if he calls himself a master and salutes wrongly and he is attacked and he is knocked out he is not a master. He is a has-been,. That is a rather primitive system;, but in the modern day time we try to get away from that. And one had to actually make a name for himself I think if that would help you to get an idea of the cult you are dealing with. Q You have referred .to it as a cult. Are you talking about martial arts generally? A You know,, I am not raised in this language. Cult, you SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmontony Alberta 15 know, there are so many kooks. Cults as I see religious cults not. Since they have so many different styles, many different styles I myself loosely refer to it as a cult. They surround against a person. They identify with a certain person,, and they differ in their outlook and approach. They can differ quite significantly amongst one another by dress, by promotional standards or outlook. I guess this is about the best thing I can offhand come up with unless I have more time to think. Q When you use that term in your own context the term cult are you talking about martial arts as a whole the way it is practiced;, or are you talking about a style of martial arts? A No, but martial arts this is a collective thing. Firstly kung Fu is not a martial art. It is induced into the martial art and it is called one because they have slug outs. It is a philosophy of longevity, and we appear under martial arts because if we would be registered under philosophy surely we would deprive ourselves of the market if that would be a fair statement. Q Let me come at it in a different way. From what you have told me when you were a young child for about over a period of about three years with some breaks you learned some basics of Kung Fu from the person you referred to as Uncle Yen, correct? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 16 A Yes. Q And then you didn't do any more of that until you came to Canada and is it correct that in about 1961 you again started to practice Kung Fu? A Yes, May I give you -- I don't know. Q Let me just ask you one more question, if I might? MR. OSHRY; But, Mr. Groh, I believe he also said he was doing some stuff in between there as well if I understand, Q MR. GROH: I didn't understand that, but I will come back to that. What I am trying to get a handle on is this. Many years ago I lived in Calgary, and I remember seeing your ads, and at that time correct me if I am wrong it was advertised as Simon Karate? A Correct. Q Is that correct? A Yes. Q And the reason I am interested in that is when you first started working again at Kung Fu or whatever you were working at in about 1961 in Calgary were you studying Karate at that. time or was it Kung Fu? A In the beginning it was Karate. Q And any particular style? A Actually I don't know how you say, you got to think here. I had a -- I started -- I started -- what I did was a concept which I started. But the reason mainly SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 17 why I used Karate was because Karate was known. kung Fu was a total unknown entity. So I went into Karate, and I was rather good at it, but compared to Kung Fu I most likely would have looked clumsy. Q Did in fact you and Margie Hilbig start to teach yourself Karate from a book? A There were no books out. We didn-'t have a book then. Q I understood that you studied Shotokan, and it was in the initial -- A No, I don't think ever Shotokan, no, no. I had a man who went to Winnipeg^ and there was a tournament, and he was saying that his Shotokan people were so good, and I went there,, and I worked with them, and they weren't good at all. Q Do you have any recollection of learning Karate or basic Kung Fu from a book with Margie Hilbig in the period around 1961? A No, I only know that I wrote a book, but I didn't learn out of a book. Q Did you -- A There were no books around. The recollection, there was a book from some silly man there. He was at the Bay,, and I think his name was Bruce Tegner (phonetic) if I am not mistaken, and that man had books on the market, but he had it on Aki Do. He had a smorgasbord on everything,. and I looked through that book, and it was really silly because this is a book which one SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 18 would use how not to teach -- actually how not to commit suicide. It was a silly book. Q You don't have any recollection of you and Margie Hilbig practicing and learning Karate or kung Fu from a book, correct? A NOy firstly Margie Hilbig didn't know anything. Q I just want to establish that you don't have any recollection of doing that? A No, noty sir. So you mean how do you learn? You put the book down and then you say<, lefs see and then you go and practice? What do you mean learning out of a book? Q That is essentially what I thought -- A No,, no, n0y sir,, no. Q Did you and Ms. Hilbig travel to Los Angeles to study under Ed Parker? A No. Q Did you ever study with Mr. Parker or train with him? A Mr. Parker was an associate of mine, and for some time we were partners in the Long Beach International Tournament. I didn't have to study under Parker. Mr. Parker awarded me an Eighth Degree Black Belt at the time as a courtesy simply due to the fact that I lectured in all of his classes for quite some time;, and when I visited there I think sometimes three or four days in a row with about two or three hundred students there. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 19 Q When was that that Mr. Ed Park awarded you an Eighth Degree Black Belt? A That was mainly in the end. I think '71. I just can't -- but since I am under oath you are putting the gun to my head. Q What I would like to do is focus on the period back in the early 1960s? A Sir,, siry I went about from '63 on with every year to the States, and I have to explain to you. I owned clubs. My clubs were Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I owned that with about two or three hundred students. In '65 or 6 I owned the Chicago De Paul club with about 400 students. I also owned a club in Kansas Cityy Kansas. And I also had shares and ownership of 13 other clubs in and around LA and Bozeman,, Montana was one also. Q My understanding is that you opened your fist studio in 1961 in Calgary? A That is in Canada,, yes. MR. OSHRY; Mr. Grohy what is the relevance of the stuff going back to I960? MR. GROH; This witness's background. MR. OSHRY: You are entitled to ask some guestions. MR. GROH; I am going to come up to date. MR. OSHRY; I am not sure you are entitled to go into all this detail that you are going into. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton. Alberta 20 A May I help you. If it at all helps me I am a self- made man. I did not rely on any past training or anything. I had to go out and make a name for myself. I was at that time not a Canadian citizeno And there was a tournament in the United States I wanted to go to, and I couldn't enter the States. And Justice Schnorr (phonetic) who made me a Canadian citizen in private chambers, I went to him and said, Justice, so and soy I would like to go, but they wouldn't let in the States. He got me a they call it waiver or something from Ottawa flown by military jet to Penhold so I could enter the tournament in the United States which I won the Collegiate Tournament for Canada. Q MR. GROHs When was that? A Gee. Q Approximately? A '64 or '66. I am not too sure. Q Do I understand you correctly that while you opened your first Karate studio in Calgary in 1961 that you were involved in studios in the United States before that? A No, no, that came later, sir. Q That came later? A Yes, sir. About a year or so it began later I would think. Q When you first began to train students in your Calgary studio in approximately 1961 did you have a Black Belt SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton^ Alberta 21 at that time? A Yes. Q And who did you obtain that from? A Gee, the Black Belt I just tied around I think. Q Now, I understand that you opened a studio in Edmonton in 1964, is that correct? A Yeah. Q And had you by that time had you become involved in studios in the United States? A Yeah. It was '62? No, must be '63. Q 1964 was Edmonton opening I understand? A No, that is 50 or 40 years back, but somewhere in there I went to Philadelphia and entered a tournament,. and I got a Seventh Degree Black Belt from Shima Bokuru (phonetic), Q Do you know when that was? A '63 I think to the best of my memory, sir. Q And that was a Seventh Degree Black Belt? A Seventh Degree Black Belt. It is a Red Belt in Karate, not Rung Fu, nothing to do with Kung Fuo Q This was a Sixth Degree Black Belt in Karate? A Seventh. In Sibukan (phonetic) Karate, you can write the name down. House of Holy Alliance. Q And did you by 1964 have any interests in any studios in the United States? A We are all amateurs. You are looking at a business thing. Like what we did later was professional. No, SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 22 I lost my shirt there actually. They were amateurs. And I had no money. I had to travel there, and I made my money from the sale of uniforms. I also got travel money. But sometimes they had money. Other times they didn't have money. They would tell me -- they would send me money. In most cases it wasn't true. They themselves didn't have much money either really. Q You had told me earlier, and I am just trying to get a time frame here that you had the studios in -- a studio in Harrisburg in which there were several hundred students, a city in Chicago in which there were approximately -- A No, it was the university of Chicago, De Paul, a medical institute. Q And a studio in Kansas City? A Kansas City,, Kansas. Q And there was another one in Manitoba, and you said you had interest in 13 others? A No, I didn't have one in Manitoba, sir. Q I intended to say Montana if I didn't. A Okay, yes. Q What time frame are you talking about when you had these interests? A You really got me over the barrel because I would think five years or so. You mean from the beginning? Q I am trying to find the year. And that is why I was tying it into Calgary or Edmonton to see if that SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 23 helped you? A Well, you are looking at it in a clinical way. The martial arts do not really function -- basically if you talk about Tae Kwan Do, Karate, or Rung Fu it is a hat with different brims of a different shape but still it is a hat. They are all interrelated. Sometimes a Karate style is very little discernible or different very little from a Chinese style. They are all actually -- basically they are all Chinese styles which have been altered if that will help you. Q I understand that. What I am trying to find out is when you had these interests in the Harrisburg studio, the Chicago studio at the university, the Kansas City studio, and the other American studios? A Well, I still have a friend here. He is a medical doctor. He is down in Idaho. And I would think it was six -- I just don't know, sir. I got to find out if that is when I had them, I didn't have them -- of course I didn't in succession gave them to you, but I didn't have them right away all at the same time. So this evolved. Harrisburg was a place, a studio they wanted to belong to my group. So if I say this was my studio which I owned that would be false or misleading. These were people. They had a certain style, and they didn't like what they saw, and they saw me perform somewhere, and they wanted -- they threw all the other people out, and they wanted my SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 24 style or what I knew. They wanted to learn from me, And I think there was a Japanese teacher there they didn't like, and they just wanted to be taught by me because when I entered the Philadelphia Tournament I took the fourth place there. They were very interested, and they approached me as to that fact, and I said you want to belong to my that is the word association, okay. Q So you didn't own clubs or have an ownership interest in clubs in American cities, but. what was happening was your style was being taught in those clubs, is that correct? A Yeah, yeah, eventually, yes. This is true, but truly they were only after a performer who had by that time a rank or a name or made a name for themselves. I have seen many people in the Tournament they were Fourth and Fifth Degree, and they couldn't stand on one leg. They are useless people. Q So was your style of Karate then taught in these various clubs that you have mentioned in the United States? A Yeah, but you know -- yes, but I want you to appreciate it was not a pure style of Karate. I didn't like Karate. It was too jerky for my liking. It had no flow. And most of all I wanted to introduce Rung Fu because that was really what really suited myself and what I had a background in. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 25 Q Now, let us talk about your background in Rung Fu. As at 1961, 1964, that period of time -- A Yeah, well, my background in Rung Fu is right now about 60 some years. Q No, I am not talking about now. I am talking about back in the '60s? A In the '60s, 30 years less. Q My understanding was that by about 1961 you hadn't had any background in Rung Fu except for what you had learned from your Uncle Yen when you were a very young person and that -- A Well, sir, you can't really say any background. So if I volunteer information to you I mean it in honesty that I had off and on training. But you could have a man here training as an amateur let's say t