Serge: No. No. No. We have to get into the details. You know that's a very complicated deal (GAS loan deal). I have been studying that for 2 months already. The way it is done, hindi mo talaga maintindihan. So I really have to simplify it for you. And the only way to simplify it is this way: They lent money to a $2 corporation, the Global Air Services of the British Virgin Islands, a corporation that is not licensed to do business in the Philippines. So, paano mo kakasuhan iyan eh wala namang address dito? So, pahiramin mo ng $180 million, actually $90M lang from DBP and $90M from Land Bank...paano mo kakasuhan iyan? Kung hindi ka bayaran, paano mo hahabulin iyan?

Q: The loan was $90m from DBP, $90m from Land Bank? And it was used to what?

Serge: It could be as far as plunder. Because there was a spread, too big a spread between, eto...sinabi nila, 'Eto ang presyo natin ah.' Pero hindi naman sinabi sa public. Kanila lang.

Q: Sino ang liable dito?

Serge: That's what I'd like to find out. Una, the president of the bank. Si Rey David 'yun, sa DBP. Sa Land Bank, the president was Gilda Pico. And even the chairpersons of the Board, the members. Can you imagine approving a loan and there's no borrower? The borrower was named 3 weeks later? Pero aprubado na 'yung loan. Tapos dumating 'yung borrower, ang worth niya $2 lang pala. Eh, teka muna.

Serge: Yes, I am going to invite Gary Teves. He has to shed light on this because he was the one who approved this. You know why? Because was not only chairman of Land Bank, he was also the secretary of finance. He was the one who approved this.

Serge: Because they have a different definition of a 'behest' loan. A behest loan to him is a loan that is not paid back. So, ganito ang example. You steal my car, so carnapping iyan. Pag-iyak mo, sinoli ko sayo 'yung auto. So ano ngayon? There's no crime! Kasi sinoli ko naman. Ganun ba yun? That's why they call it behest loan, because it was given to them at the behest of somebody, and there are 8 elements that would define behest loan. Two elements together considers the loan as behest.

Q: Sabi nila, pang non-performing loans (NPLs) lang 'yan.

Serge: No. It just so happened that when President Ramos issued Memorandum Order #61 in 1992, they were really concerned about the NPLs kasi napakalaki ng NPLs noon. If you look at the definition of behest, it's got to do with the process of lending, which is very lax: no credit check, under-capitalized, wala kang cash flows, merong marginal notes from the Big Boss up there or somewhere. Ganun. There were 8 such elements.

Q: That it was a 'behest' loan was not debunked by a mere denial?

Serge: There is no crime called behest loan. The crime is in the Anti-Graft and Corrupt Practices Act, which is giving undue advantage, or putting the government at a grossly disadvantageous position. That is a crime. Behest is just a part of it. Behest is not mentioned at all in the law.

Q: Suggestion kanina ni Mr. Ongpin, since this is in aid of legislation, magkaroon ng definite definition of what is a behest loan? Masasama kaya iyan sa committee report?

Serge: Yes, yes. We can do that. We can tighten up the law. Because right now, it is just a memorandum order which the Supreme Court adopted in several decisions already, na heto ang definition ng behest loan. So really, may definition kung ano ang behest loan. As a matter of fact, the Supreme Court has thrown out some cases using that judgement and has convicted some people, also using that judgement. So definitely, we will include that.

And you guys also have to know that there has never been a case of insider trading in this country. Wala. And that's ridiculous. Because the Philippines have the worst insider trading practices in the whole world.

Q: 'Yung insider trading ire-re-define din 'yun?

Serge: We will have to tighten it up. Kasi napakaluwang niyan. Mahirap kasuhan ang tao eh. Unless we show the world that we have honest, straight-forward, God-fearing financial structure in place in our country, many people don't like to put their savings here. Kasi, 'Paano mo kakasuha 'yan?' Ganun 'yan eh.

Q: Danding Cojuangco, who is very strong in Sen. Legarda's political party, owns big shares in San Miguel, which also has loans like Mr. Ongpin. Do you think that has something to do why she did not ask tough questions today? You were one of the most vocal people questioning him. But not many other people were as directas you were...

Serge: Well, we have to determine the participants. Mukhang conspiracy. And then, it was a series. Maraming transactions ito. Binili 'yung AIVI, 'yung Ashmore 1, Ashmore 2, 'yung Presidio Capital. But like I said, this is going to be a very complicated thing.

Q: It's hard to determine this early kung sino-sino, but definitely there is plunder?

Serge: Definitely. And if there's anybody who will be charged, it will be the bank presidents who lent the money.