I saw Polygon's video gameplay preview of the game and I thought it looked delightful, and I don't care about the localization mistake because I'm waiting for it to be $5 on Steam anyway.

I really love the idea behind how they balanced magic; you can cast as many spells as you want, but doing so reduces your maximum stamina with each cast (until you rest at a bonfire^W sanctuary), so the more you cast the less you can block/dodge. Seems like a really clever idea!

I started last night and man am I having fun. I started with a simple fighter, since that seemed like a good choice: sword, shield, and heavy armor. But the more I play it, the more I'm leaining towards a dex based fighter. And I'm loving that I can totally do this!

I'll admit that the first boss proceeded to completely whoop my ass several times. Ok, many times. Many, many times. That sodden asshole. But damn did I feel great when I finally beat him!

What's interesting is how little things are explained. It's a bit odd what with today's design obsession with holding your hand every few steps. If I keep liking this...I might have to get Dark Souls/Bloodborne.

I started last night and man am I having fun. I started with a simple fighter, since that seemed like a good choice: sword, shield, and heavy armor. But the more I play it, the more I'm leaining towards a dex based fighter. And I'm loving that I can totally do this!

I'll admit that the first boss proceeded to completely whoop my ass several times. Ok, many times. Many, many times. That sodden asshole. But damn did I feel great when I finally beat him!

What's interesting is how little things are explained. It's a bit odd what with today's design obsession with holding your hand every few steps. If I keep liking this...I might have to get Dark Souls/Bloodborne.

Yeah, everything you wrote appears several times in the dark souls thread as folks pick it up for the first time.

I'll definitely pick this up at some point. Bit behind on the backlog at the moment and Dark Souls 3 will be out before I know it.

Looking back through this thread, I'm pretty dismayed to see people dismissing it out of hand because of some bone-headed translation decisions and the art. I mean, yes, whoever the artist is draws the stupidest, ugliest faces, with really weird eyes, but you spend so little time actually seeing any face (especially since I gave my character an unruly mop of hair and a mask to this explicit end), and a lot of the other art is great! There are some breath-taking, beautiful moments of artistry to be had here, but only in motion I guess, because for some reason all of the screenshots that I can find online look like ass.

This game really is 2D Dark Souls, which means that it is Castlevania, which means that it is aces. I am having an amazing time with it, and I can't believe that it is not more popular, especially on Talking Time of all places. I haven't fallen as deeply or as quickly for a game as I have for this in quite some time. I'm writing about it now instead of working because all I want to do is get back home and play more of it.

My only complaints, and they are minor ones, are that the gear comparisons don't quite work how I'd like them to (I always seem to have difficulty comparing two pieces of gear, even though I can't put my finger on why), secret doors are awkward (I walked by the same secret door, surrounded by messages from other players telling me that it was there, a dozen times, always rubbing up against the wall and smashing it with different weapons, only to find that I'm supposed to hit 'B', which normally doesn't do anything), and shields feel mandatory. That last one probably requires a bit of elaboration.

I rolled a Hunter, which means that I started with a whip in my main hand and a crossbow in my offhand. The crossbow is fun as an opening attack, but seems to be disappointingly low damage and is difficult to aim, so I don't use it much otherwise. At least the ammo is cheap, although it does take up the charm slot, which is a bummer. The whip, on the other hand, is super fun. It doesn't feel as badass as the swords, but I really like the extra reach, and without sacrificing speed like the polearms.

Anyway, since I started with a weapon in each hand, I didn't have a block (the block button shoots the crossbow), so I was using dodge-rolling as defense (the dodge roll is really nice, provided that you stay unencumbered). This worked great for the first couple of bosses (man, that first boss is so good), but I found that I was hitting a brick wall with the 3rd (well, my 3rd, anyway; maybe I should have tried one of the others first) until I strapped a buckler to my arm, after which I beat him on my second try. Every block completely depleted my stamina gauge, but it was enough. If there's a way to dodge all of that guy's attacks with dodge rolling, I couldn't find it, and the next couple of bosses felt way easier with both blocking and rolling at my disposal (not to mention enemy archers). Whip/shield seems really off thematically/visually, but it works really well.

I was ready to ignore this, because it looks really bad, but then I looked at the art closer and realized this is by the same people who did Dishwasher: Dead Samurai which is a really fun beat 'em up on the X-Box Store (No memory of what this thing is called). Dishwasher also looked really bad, and I only played it because my sister bought it on impulse but then I ended up playing it way more than she did. The combat in that was basically a perfect reproduction of Devil May Cry 3 in a 2D world, so I am definitely interested in trying this out. It's also cheap as bologna, which helps.

That's certainly why I'm playing it. I almost always wait for Steam sales before buying games these days, but at ~$15 it was too cheap to pass up. I've already gotten my money's worth after < 24 hours.

The game had the poor fortune of being released in the lead up to Dark 3 and was a timed exclusive, but still, from the little bit I played of it, this shit is seriously Souls so yeah I agree that it's weird this didn't get more traction here. But neither did Hyper Light Drifter. =\

Can anyone speak to the worth of magic in this? I kind of want to be a mage but don't want to get stuck with the weird stamina dropping system, though I also think that you get what's basically Stamina Estus eventually?

The game had the poor fortune of being released in the lead up to Dark 3 and was a timed exclusive, but still, from the little bit I played of it, this shit is seriously Souls so yeah I agree that it's weird this didn't get more traction here. But neither did Hyper Light Drifter. =\

Can anyone speak to the worth of magic in this? I kind of want to be a mage but don't want to get stuck with the weird stamina dropping system, though I also think that you get what's basically Stamina Estus eventually?

Mage is a bit tough to get going but gets easy pretty quick, especially once you make yourself a weapon that scales appropriately. The best spells are a bit hidden, but you'll get plenty of use out of the starter two.

You get the equivalent of stamina estus right away and can get more by choosing the appropriate spots on the sphere grid or leveling up your shrines via one of the vendors you can summon.

Yeah I'm not entirely keen on that. What even is the difference between Channeler, Magus, and Magic User? I appreciate that it tries to give some structure to the otherwise completely freeform "you can fuck yourself over with careless choices" leveling of Souls but god damn if that's not just a giant convoluted mess of a skill tree that's full of nothing but attribute points and gated weapon/armor progression. Maybe it works better in practice and it doesn't seem bad, just weird.

but god damn if that's not just a giant convoluted mess of a skill tree that's full of nothing but attribute points and gated weapon/armor progression.

Yeah, that's my sticking point. The original Sphere Grid was pretty cool because for one, it's not a web. The different "classes" all pretty much stay to themselves, except for times where related classes might brush up against each other. There's also the part where each class wasn't just a collection of stats, there were different abilities scattered throughout them as well so that you always had something to strive for just around the corner.

Yeah I'm not entirely keen on that. What even is the difference between Channeler, Magus, and Magic User? I appreciate that it tries to give some structure to the otherwise completely freeform "you can fuck yourself over with careless choices" leveling of Souls but god damn if that's not just a giant convoluted mess of a skill tree that's full of nothing but attribute points and gated weapon/armor progression. Maybe it works better in practice and it doesn't seem bad, just weird.

The first two are types of weapons (staves are stronger but wands can be used in an offhand so you don't need to put away your sword) and the third unlocks spell levels. So, yeah, gated progression. Leveling up the weapons gets you points in magic as well, at least.

Yeah, that's my sticking point. The original Sphere Grid was pretty cool because for one, it's not a web. The different "classes" all pretty much stay to themselves, except for times where related classes might brush up against each other.

I mean, that's still pretty much true here? Each of the various starting classes starts in a different section of the grid, and drives towards their preferred weapon/armour types. However, like FFX's grid, you can also plow a bunch of points into driving off into someone else's part of the grid if you decide you don't care for your starting choices or want to hybrid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aturtledoesbite

There's also the part where each class wasn't just a collection of stats, there were different abilities scattered throughout them as well so that you always had something to strive for just around the corner.

This, however, I'll agree with. I was really disappointed when I started looking around the tree and didn't find the special abilities that I was hoping to. You're pretty much just choosing gear specialties and stats. That being said, the poltice/phials do serve to be that something to strive for, I've found. Each additional poltice/phial is a huge bonus, so I plan detours to pick up any close ones and dive for the ones close to my critical path.

The first two are types of weapons (staves are stronger but wands can be used in an offhand so you don't need to put away your sword) and the third unlocks spell levels. So, yeah, gated progression. Leveling up the weapons gets you points in magic as well, at least.

Okay cool, thanks for the explanation. Apparently the game has Spells AND Invocations, too? *boggle*

I don't mind the gated progression and whatnot, it's just a different way to do the same thing Souls does in the form of stat requirements requiring you to pay opportunity costs in the form of neglecting other stats and playstyles. I just kind of think that giant stat tree could be half the size and be okay.

Holy shit, SWORD WHIPS. I have finally found my weapon. I'm over a dozen hours/half-dozen bosses in now, and I was still using my starting whip (the Tree of Man boss was a slog) because I only just recently summoned my first transmuter because I had no idea what they did and how important they are. My attack power just almost doubled, and now I get the best of both worlds, with sword combos on weak attack and ranged whip attacks with strong. Not to mention the S Dex scaling. I am never using another weapon.

That being said, I'm a little bummed that I sold the other level 0 whip that I found, because I'd also like to try out the high-level vanilla whips, and once you make the switch you can't switch back. I sure hope there's at least one more whip to find somewhere in the world for me to experiment with.

I'm still really enjoying myself, but I'm surprised how Metroidvania it's been getting in the mid-game. Usually games wear that kind of stuff on their sleeve, but it's subtle enough in this one that I really wasn't expecting it, so each new movement ability that I've gotten has been a genuine surprise.

That was pretty much my takeaway: despite all its trappings, at the end of the day, S&S is more Metroidvania than Souls game.

You may be able to buy a whip somewhere, but transmuting isn't a one-way street. You should be able to transmute any weapon into a like one if you have the correct material. It won't show you any transmutations you don't have the material for, though, so that may be your problem. (I haven't played S&S since before DS3 launched, so my memory may be a bit hazy.)

If you're still having trouble with dodging boss attacks, i recommend not trying to dodge the attacks themselves but, when you see him/her/it winding up, dodge through the boss itself to get behind them. Very few bosses have the awareness to turn around once they've started an attack so this gives you a good-size window to just go ham.

Also, i recommend leveling both a slashing and blunt weapon. Pretty much every enemy in the game is heavily resistant to one or the other of those two types - taking half or less damage - so having access to a good one of each type can make a huge difference, especially against bosses.

That was pretty much my takeaway: despite all its trappings, at the end of the day, S&S is more Metroidvania than Souls game.

I don't agree with that at all. I think it uses a very light touch on those elements, and it could not possibly be more Dark Souls. I found it really delightful, because Metroidvanias (which I was spoiling because I didn't want to rob others of the experience I had of finding this out organically) usually wear that on their sleeve, to the point that I'll start identify bits where "Oh, I need a double jump here" from a few minutes in, but I genuinely wasn't expecting it here, and it's super subtle/non-obvious, and I never know what new movement ability I'm going to get before I get it. Both the gravity-switching and wall jump were complete surprises to me, although I just recently noticed a few wispy platforms that had been hiding in plain sight, so I'm betting that I get an ability to turn those solid next.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohGr

You may be able to buy a whip somewhere, but transmuting isn't a one-way street. You should be able to transmute any weapon into a like one if you have the correct material.

This is a special case. I def. have the materials, and could make like 4 different whips before the switch, but sword whips seem to be their own unique weapon school that you can't transmute out of once you make one. I can still turn it into a class 5 sword whip like I could before, but the class 2 is my current preference, even though the class 5 has double the base damage, because the class 5 has C scaling with Str, Magic, and Dex, the earlier two of which I've tanked, while my current one just has S Dex. Plus half of the class 5's damage is Fire, which I'm betting a bunch of bosses resist, and it's stupid expensive in terms of both salt and materials.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohGr

If you're still having trouble with dodging boss attacks, i recommend not trying to dodge the attacks themselves but, when you see him/her/it winding up, dodge through the boss itself to get behind them. Very few bosses have the awareness to turn around once they've started an attack so this gives you a good-size window to just go ham.

If I didn't know how to dodge through/behind enemies/bosses, I'd never have made it this far. But a couple of specific bosses/attacks are just having none of that, and blocking seems to be the only way to reasonably handle it.

Special shout-out to the full fire-resistance shield, which really helped trivialize both the Dragon and the Tree of Man.

I think that I've found a half-dozen or so scattered around the world, but they're also uncommon drops from at least a half-dozen different enemy types. Back when I first started transmuting (which, as mentioned above, was quite far into the game because I didn't know it was a thing), I only had two, but I have a bag full of them now. Because I just did these areas last night, I can say for certain that there are several of them lying on the ground in both the Dome of the Forgotten and the Ziggurat of Dust.

If you're trying to farm one up early for a bitchin' weapon (which I don't recommend, but I have no patience for farming), I know for a fact that one dropped from those big assholes with the morningstars that charge around and breathe poison. There's one right above the sanctuary at the east end of the forest area (forget the name; haven't been there for quite some time).

Progress continues! I've been playing a little bit every night for a while now and made it to the Far Shore before calling it in for the night. Magic continues to be really good! If you haven't played a mage, elemental imbalance stacks up as you cast Fire or Sky spells and will do massive damage to YOU if you cast too many of the same flavor in a row. You start with a ring that completely nullifies that effect but it uses up a ring slot and isn't hard to avoid if you're smart. I hit my first really hard boss at the Desiccated Husk so I swapped out the Link of Fire and Sky (no elemental imbalance) for the ring that doubles the amount of imbalance you get for like 50% more spell damage per cast. Holy shit that bastard got so ruined.

I'm one hell of a glass cannon though. I branched out into Light Armor 1 and Shields 1 because they had stats I liked on the way and I still feel really squishy. My armor is a real mishmash of stuff, I've got the Hunter's Coat heavy armor 0 chest on lol. I also ended up branching out into Swords 2 because it means I can 2 hand Class 2 Greatswords, and there's a Class 2 Greatsword "Black Widow" that has B scaling in Magic you can make with the Ear of The Queen of Smiles so putting the charm that boosts attack speed onto that has been really fun for conserving on mana. I don't ever have a shield on anymore which is fine since I can dodge roll pretty well but I should either get my points back or commit to Swords 3 so I can use a shield with my GS. I'm not using wands because the idea is to have a way to conserve mana and shield, though I might switch it up and go wand/shield for bosses or something. Now that I've spent more time with it I ultimately do like the Tree of Skill, because it seems well designed. There's plenty of ways to dodge around stuff you don't necessarily need at the moment, and all of the equipment unlock nodes also come with an appropriate for the level investment amount of stat points, making going through an equipment license node you don't necessarily want actually not suck because if you're in that part of the tree you want that stat to use that equipment better. I actually might like it more than the Souls system of 'equipment has stat requirements' because basic branching out in S&S is very easy.

I ended up switching to The Three from Devara's Light because I just wasn't feeling Devara and turns out I had enough items to get to Devotion 4 with The Three. *shrug* So I took 2 bonus mana potions and a bonus health potion and am aiming for the two mana potions and Staves 5 at the end of the mage tree.

The lack of a map is still a nearly unforgivable sin though. If the rest of the game wasn't so damn good the lack of a map would probably be a deal breaker for me honestly, because the levels aren't necessarily huge and complex but they do have lots of loopbacks and interconnections Dark Souls 1 style, and a 2D world is a lot harder for me to keep track of in my head than a 3D world is these days because 2D worlds have less spatial landmarks and such. It's also zoomed way in and there's no "oh I was up there now I'm down here" moments. So I've been using a map and a "go here next in the most general terms and directions" guide to compensate for not being able to look at my map and go "oh, okay, there's the couple rooms that look like they're clearly not filled in and I vaguely remember something being there, let's go investigate!"

Eta: it's not a detailed map outside of showing the basic structure of the world, it's that sepia tone one on the wiki with the area names.

I'm kind of bummed that I'm missing out on casting entirely, especially since I have a big bag full of cool-sounding spells, but I don't think it would make sense to branch out at this point (although there are a couple of poultices temptingly shallow in the caster parts of the tree), and I doubt that I'll want to dive back in again for a second play-through when I'm done.

The Hunter set is legit. It was my starting set, and it was quite some time before I replaced it. I'm wearing some kickass rank 4 light armour now though. My biggest armour complaint is that the jack-o-lantern helm is better than anything else I've ever found by a large margin, so I've been looking at it all game. Meanwhile, I have a top hat rotting in my bats, which is criminal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tefari

I don't ever have a shield on anymore which is fine since I can dodge roll pretty well but I should either get my points back or commit to Swords 3 so I can use a shield with my GS.

I just can't hack shield-less play; once I finally strapped one to my arm I never looked back (although my alt weapon set has an off-hand gun because holy crap those things pack a punch). I might feel differently if I could shoot magic from the other end of the boss arenas, but blocking feels clutch on so many of the bosses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tefari

The lack of a map is still a nearly unforgivable sin though. If the rest of the game wasn't so damn good the lack of a map would probably be a deal breaker for me honestly

I wasn't feeling this complaint at first and didn't really see where you guys were coming from, but now that I'm nearing what I assume is the end game I am not looking forward to doing a final sweep of the world to get what I missed. I felt like I still had a really good handle on things up to about 10 hours in, but I've found that the world ended up about 4 times as large as I was expecting, and I've completely lost my sense of where some of the areas are in relation to others thanks to all the little interconnected shortcuts. I'm still going to try and finish it without outside aid though, mostly out of stubbornness. (And speaking of stubbornness, I would bet that the only reason that this game doesn't have a map is slavish devotion to the Dark Souls formula.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tefari

It's also zoomed way in and there's no "oh I was up there now I'm down here" moments.

I seem to have these moments a lot, though? Like, this happened several times just last night even. Weird.

ETA: You do know that you can pan the camera with the right stick, yes?

Eh, magic isn't THAT interesting, I'm just enjoying it a lot. The Lightning Bolt spell I found in the first couple hours is still my workhorse attack, now that I've found Fireball I'm finally doing something different by using alternate spell types with the high risk high reward ring. The Incantation spells are really not that impressive, lemme tell you. Flame Orbiter and Flame Guardian are weak as hell, and the AOE Fire and Lightning aren't BAD but regular ol' Lightning Bolt pierces through multiple enemies for under half the MP cost.

I almost feel like I would have had the same amount of fun with the Hunter's mix of melee and ranged, but sparkly lights!

Yeah I know you can pan the camera, that's not the real issue, but knowing that is helpful at times. What I meant by "up here, down there" is there's no looking down from the High Wall of Lothric onto the Undead Village, then looking up on the Wall from down IN the Village. But it's a 2D game so that's not a real complaint lol. By zoomed in I just meant the most amount of the world you can ever see is relatively small, again by nature of being a 2D game.

The map thing is total bullshit though, and I will never not let it go, because this is a flibbitygibbin Metroidvania game. Souls gets by on its masterful use of 3D space and level design to make its spaces stand out and map themselves on to your mind, and I'm not trying to say SAS isn't well designed because its very very well designed, but at least for me personally I have a much harder time mapping 2D spaces these days I guess, and it doesn't help that the threshold for lethal fall damage is fairly low. The game just didn't need to copy that particular element, especially given how it makes some smart changes to the Souls formula in other places; like I said I ended up really impressed by how smart the Tree of Skill is after mentioning upthread that it looked silly.