You are quite right os2wiz. HOWEVER, and I'm using capitals for a reason, this tyranny of capitalism, this system of enslavement, works through many channels: not only through having made a rigged system of relatively inescapable working class status, but also through the invasion of media in order to maintain the masses psychologically stuck in a state of fear of non-survival.

Debt is also a huge tool they use for the enslavement of the masses. As such, this tyranny is not only economical but psychological, and as such, the people will not rise up in masses to change things. The average Joe is barely making ends meet but he is comfortable enough, contrary to Russia and China. TV and other time sink entertainments make sure he doesn't think about all this stuff, no, the establishment provides ample ways to keep their minds turned off.

Between the pressure to perform at work and "be productive", the economic pressure to make ends meet, the mind-anesthesia or state of fear provided by the media, and the encouragement to BELIEVE, which is the contrary to critical thought, there is very little left of the hardy, independent, self-driven desire for true freedom that would enable such a rise.

I don't think it will happen. We're on our own.

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Good points. But even the media which tends to put the thinking mind to sleep has a honeycomb nests of workers in it. Yes most live in fear now. They are NOT happy and not so many are patriots any more. They are in survival mode. They want an alternative that will work and is real. They do not see it yet. An organized dedicated party can reaqch them. Like I said it before this is a generational struggle. It most likely will take 20-30 years to build. But remember this is a world with quantum leaps in it. Once the work is done in an area , no matter how small for a significant period of time.The recruits few at first can lead to a qualitative state- a breakthrough. Think in physics terms like boiling water that starts cold from the tap. You see little of anything until it approaches 100degrees centigrade. Then it starts slowly to boil and in a couple of minutes it boils rapidly. That is dialectical materialism where quantity goes into quality. It is true of everything in nature including human society. I have seen small breakthroughs in our strike work. We recruited 4 workers from a small bakery that had a one year strike against the Wall Street takeover firm that bought it out. They demanded wage cuts and health and pension cuts. CVut holiday time in half. The workers striked and went nowhere. They brought in replacement workers. but they were of poor training and the product was not of the same quality. Not one original worker crossed the picket line, not one of 122. We through our work in the unions brought supporters to their line every day.We met them in their homes, developed a relationship with them .Gave them our party press and met with them to discuss the ideas. We raised money for food for them to supplement the inadequate union strike fund. We marched through the community with them many times. They joined. They were from all countries, one from Africa, one from Greece, several from Latin America. As a result we had a boost to our work overseas as well. Our party press is in over 28 countries in all five continents. Still small. Hundreds in Pakistan, dozens in Europe, a few hundred in Mexico, Central America, and South America, and handful on the African continent. All aided from one strike where careful and determined work was done. Some undoubtedly will not be in it for the long haul. It is a rough and treacherous road to haul. But so is life under capitalism. It always has surprises for us some good most not. The workers won the strike and the company brand was sold to a non-union bakery. The NY plant was closed everyone lost their job. So that is an example of the quantum leap that is one of the laws of dialectical materialism. I am an optimist I have been in this struggle since 20 years of age some 43 years ago. It has has lead to several incarcerations for me mostly when I wasin university and a couple shortly after univeristy. Now I have been arrested for aiding a struggle against hospital cutbacks and closure in Brooklyn. They are cutting care severely in a black and Latino section of my borough. Have some misdemeanors such as trespass and disorderly conduct to fight. I will survive the fight and we will triumph. I survived a heart attack last year caused by my bosses. Eventually I had to retire because of that. But not before I helped organize a work stoppage in my radiology department. 27 people including 5 doctors and 22 workers from my hospital attended my retirement parety. They gave speeches and showed much appreciation for my efforts. If they only understood I am a product of the collective of dedicated party workers in the health field. Yes I sacrificed on their behalf partly to set an example for them to overcome their fears. I now have a network of readers in the hospital. It is not dependent on my presence to survive.That is a small but vital accomplishment.
I gave you guys a vignette into my life. As you can see all is not rosy, but the sweetness of progress no matter how small must be savored and used to have the will to carry on and develop younger leadership to advance the work.
Keep the chin up, fight cynicism, a defeatist tool the bosses culture uses to breed inactivity. I know with my health I am unlikely to see the grand change. I have confidence my 26 year old son will.

Sorry for the lapse. Once in a while we get to really see a side of us as human beings. I love that.
You are right enough is enough. Thanks for your understanding an giving us a little breathing room to express a little of ourselves as human beings.

Sorry for the lapse. Once in a while we get to really see a side of us as human beings. I love that.
You are right enough is enough. Thanks for your understanding an giving us a little breathing room to express a little of ourselves as human beings.

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You really should learn to make paragraphs though. It's not hard: press enter a couple times.

I don't know if I'd agree with the claim that it will be on-par with Sandy Bridge. I imagine it will be a lot like BD was, where if the CPU can max out threads, it will do slightly better, but if it's 4/2/1 thread SB will still beat it handily. Logically that difference will put it on par for the IPC of Phenom II, which was still lower than Intel offerings.

Taking in account the 7% IPC improvement and 7% Core clock bump, the second generation AMD FX-Vishera would most likely end up being faster than the Intel Sandy Bridge processors if not the Ivy bridge.

I don't know if I'd agree with the claim that it will be on-par with Sandy Bridge. I imagine it will be a lot like BD was, where if the CPU can max out threads, it will do slightly better, but if it's 4/2/1 thread SB will still beat it handily. Logically that difference will put it on par for the IPC of Phenom II, which was still lower than Intel offerings.

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Till its launched we dont know, Single Thread IPC needs to increase, be ready for Todays apps and tomorrows is the game...

lets not instigate fights here, there is enough of that in the world we live in, we dont need it here.

cdawall 1+

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Not fighting, just telling him how to post the interesting stuff he writes in a format that people are going to be able to read better. He seemed puzzled when someone said they "somehow managed to read the entire thing" so I thought I would offer some writing advice... I will admit I was a bit sarcastic, and for that I apologize.

Till its launched we dont know, Single Thread IPC needs to increase, be ready for Todays apps and tomorrows is the game...

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Of course, but like I said, the per thread performance on Bulldozer was so far back I just don't see it catching up to Intel. Maybe if they crank the clock speeds through the roof, but SB isn't too bad at overclocking in the same vein

By the way the report that FX-8350 has an increase in clock speed over Bulldozer FX-8150 of 7% is flat out incorrect. Simple computation shows .4 GHZ/ 3.6 GHZ = 11% not 7% as attributed to the AMD nerd rep who did an interview for Tiger Direct. What a horribly incompetent marketing team. To underrate your own product by 4% is ridiculous. So 11% plus the 7% increase in IPC translates into an 18% performance increase. I would have wanted another 3-4% but it is not chump change. I will upgrade but am particularly looking forward to the FX steamroller cpu in another year

Of course, but like I said, the per thread performance on Bulldozer was so far back I just don't see it catching up to Intel. Maybe if they crank the clock speeds through the roof, but SB isn't too bad at overclocking in the same vein

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We realize that, PD is a stop gap thus far, I mean I recall AMD focusing on SR, so i can only guess SR is a reworked design

By the way the report that FX-8350 has an increase in clock speed over Bulldozer FX-8150 of 7% is flat out incorrect. Simple computation shows .4 GHZ/ 3.6 GHZ = 11% not 7% as attributed to the AMD nerd rep who did an interview for Tiger Direct. What a horribly incompetent marketing team. To underrate your own product by 4% is ridiculous. So 11% plus the 7% increase in IPC translates into an 18% performance increase. I would have wanted another 3-4% but it is not chump change. I will upgrade but am particularly looking forward to the FX steamroller cpu in another year

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But when at max turbo, then they are on equal MHz, so the average freq improvement is probably less than 11%.

Of course, but like I said, the per thread performance on Bulldozer was so far back I just don't see it catching up to Intel. Maybe if they crank the clock speeds through the roof, but SB isn't too bad at overclocking in the same vein

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Correct but with the 18% performance improvement over Bulldozer I expect the Vishera cpu to rate between the 2500k and the 2600k , closer to the 2600k overall than to the 2500k.
It is a definite improvement with the bigger one coming the end of next year when steamroller FX rolls out. I expect Steamroller to be better than 2600k and its IVY bridge successor I7 3570.

Correct but with the 18% performance improvement over Bulldozer I expect the Vishera cpu to rate between the 2500k and the 2600k , closer to the 2600k overall than to the 2500k.
It is a definite improvement with the bigger one coming the end of next year when steamroller FX rolls out. I expect Steamroller to be better than 2600k and its IVY bridge successor I7 3570.

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It will probably be close, of course all the above solutions are overkill for the average consumer, but we are mostly "enthusiasts" around here. I have no doubt Steamroller will close the gap, but that won't be around until after Haswell if memory serves correctly, so AMD will still be a bit behind--especially if Haswell is the type of improvement SB was.

By the way the report that FX-8350 has an increase in clock speed over Bulldozer FX-8150 of 7% is flat out incorrect. Simple computation shows .4 GHZ/ 3.6 GHZ = 11% not 7% as attributed to the AMD nerd rep who did an interview for Tiger Direct. What a horribly incompetent marketing team. To underrate your own product by 4% is ridiculous. So 11% plus the 7% increase in IPC translates into an 18% performance increase. I would have wanted another 3-4% but it is not chump change. I will upgrade but am particularly looking forward to the FX steamroller cpu in another year

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Actually, in theory if the scaling is linear, it's 18.77%, so round it to 19%.

It will probably be close, of course all the above solutions are overkill for the average consumer, but we are mostly "enthusiasts" around here. I have no doubt Steamroller will close the gap, but that won't be around until after Haswell if memory serves correctly, so AMD will still be a bit behind--especially if Haswell is the type of improvement SB was.

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Hasbeen,wannabee will be late in my opinion. It is a major headache going from 22nm ptocess down to 18nm. It could be another 18 months or longer before Hasbeen surfaces.

ya know what lets keep this on topic, enuf of the pointless arguing and bashing of a product over the other, if you cant play nice leave

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I do believe we are all on topic now. Discussing relative merits or flaws of the processors. Even with my new moniker for Haswell I clearly brought up a real issue. Reduction of process when yo are already down to 22nm is very difficult time wise and very costly. Every one always states wait until this next Intel product comes out. That has the effect of freezing the market and making it more difficult for AMD to claw its way back to respectable and more formiddable market share. That is why I did the hasbeen moniker to not so much to mock but to criticize projects that are not very likely to surface when Intel says they will. I do not see that kind of problem for AMD. There only concern is to keep themselves afloat financially until their newer designs make it to market.

I do believe we are all on topic now. Discussing relative merits or flaws of the processors. Even with my new moniker for Haswell I clearly brought up a real issue. Reduction of process when yo are already down to 22nm is very difficult time wise and very costly. Every one always states wait until this next Intel product comes out. That has the effect of freezing the market and making it more difficult for AMD to claw its way back to respectable and more formiddable market share. That is why I did the hasbeen moniker to not so much to mock but to criticize projects that are not very likely to surface when Intel says they will. I do not see that kind of problem for AMD. There only concern is to keep themselves afloat financially until their newer designs make it to market.