Posted:11th Dec 2002to everyone but especially to the Americans, what de f*ck is Bush doeing? and most of all why? why only Iraq? China also has massdestruction weapons, USA also has nuclear weapons, haven't they? please give your opinionerik

Posted:12th Dec 2002I think that in a true democracy you would have to follow the person, however every decision that the elected person makes would be voted on by the people. Thus who actually got elected wouldnt matter, it would be a looks race rather than political.

Obviusly there is no true democracy anywhere in the world, I mean I dont see a super modle sitting in the White House.

Posted:12th Dec 2002hate to interrupt your conversation here guys - I am against pretty much all violence and aggressive behaviour.. a pacifist if you will, which means i have, on more than one occasion disagreed with Ray (on religious topics too, but that's another story).. But, i just wanted to say well done Ray, for being able to discuss this particular topic in a reasonable manner, presenting facts to backup arguments, and not resorting to name-calling etc. - quite a change from the Iraq topic seen on these very boards about one year ago.I think they really _did_ tame you. keep it up.

-As angels debate chance and fate-i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.

Posted:12th Dec 2002just a few facts, the reson saddam is in power is because the allies keeped him in power durring the cold war to stop the threat of the USSR getting there political grips in the middle east. saddam did pose a potential risk to europe before the 1990's buy the use of a supper gun that was being built for them. its range could have taken out targets in the UK. it was discovered and the final peace stopped from being sent to iraq. after the first war we had the chance to tke out saddam but the americans did not want to take the risk of losing any more of its troops so pulled out leaving the freedom fighters on there own having promised to support them! they are now in the north and south of the country"trotected" by no fly zones! saddam though has drained the entir water supply from these regions turning reed land into dessert! he has also sistematically killed more people than the nazis did in the secound world war to the jews. saddam has waged a ethnic clensing of a popultion as well. the UN actually had a resolution stating that if this happened then saddem could be attacked again, but no one wanted to use this fact. simmila to the problems in afganistan that the world turned a blind eye to till it nocked at there door. suppositions!!

well my view is that Bush is trying to win the war vote. he was until 9/11 pulling out of the world stage, backing out of agreements that the stats had signed up for and basically pissing the world off. this has continued even after 9/11 but it is well hidden and only those with the inteligence to look relise. the majority of the american population is spoon fed retoric brocken down to good and evil, with out all the facts and the shades of grey in batween.Bush has massivily increased the budget of the armed forces, thus putting them even more on the political map, rather than spending that money on helping the people in his own country where i think about 60 percent carn't get decent health care. he could give half of it to help rebuild poverty stricken countries and make friends in the world, instead though the plan is to hide and put up a wall to protect from everyone good or bad.this wall is made though of huge armies trying to catch groups of a few men. think of a piace of matterial as the army and the terroists as water, the water will still get through. and the biger the matterial wieve due to poor training, the bmore easily the water getts through. and the training of the american army is not the best. looking at the gulf war, more allies died by friendly fire than by the enemy! yes saddam should be removed from power, but for human attrocities not for wepones. and we should do it by giving the people the resom to do it themselves. get rid of the embargos and let them get money enough to not be scared about having no food. they are think better the devil you know, why should i get rid of a leader for the americans who are trying to starve me!

What you don't know won't hurt you? well i intend to get to know as much as possible so that i can make sure no one else has to so they carn't get hurt.

Posted:12th Dec 2002Rozi I agree with you.Why are we so determine to push democracy in other countries?

I don't feel that we need to follow all decision made by our elected officials. As a democracy I feel we have the right to hear all the facts about issues and question our government when we feel that something is unjust. US is getting ready to send troops to fight a war and die and kill other civilians in the process but I find that American news station neglect to mention all the facts.

Posted:12th Dec 2002It is even more complex than that. We have a tendency to force our form of democracy, with all its imperfections, on others. At the same time, we seem to ignore human rights abuses and misuses of power, in countries with the same model of democracy as our own, abuses we wouldn't tolerate in a "non-democratic" nation.

Case in point. John Howard and his government, prior to an election, release photos and reports that purport to prove that refugees to Australia have thrown their own children off ships and into the water. This turns out to be a key turning point in the election. It sways people towards the protectionist policies of the government with regards to refugees. Both the photos and the reports are proven to be incorrect in investigations following the election. It is also discovered that the government refused media access to military personal present at the incident, and that reports contradicting the government's line were ignored by government ministers. The Howard government remains in power and those chiefly responsible still retain their positions.

In another nation this sort of propaganda and the resulting institutionalised abuse of refugees would be seen as a sign of a cruel despotic tyrannical government. Here, it is seen as a sign of a strong government.

Our simple deliniation of "demoncratic" and "non-democratic" allows us to shift the focus away from such behaviour in our own backyards.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted:12th Dec 2002Personally I dont think that American military training is lax, then again I am biased. I also think that if it costs 6 billion a year to keep me fed, clothed, healthy and equiped to do my job then it is a small price. Dont forget I pay the same taxes you do. Well if your from New Mexico I do but hehe

Is the media kinda playing the PC/arse role in America? Yes that is a given, in my month in Osan Korea I had access to BBC and I must admit I saw stories there that I bet would never ever be aired on an American news station.

Ture there were quite a few friendly fire kills, it is an unwritten rule of war that the only thing more accurate than enimy fire is friendly fire. I saw cockpit cam and gun cam footage from an Apache helocopter that sent a hellfire missile through the top of one of our own tanks before realising that it was our tank. 6 soldiers were killed.

Do you have friends that you have nothing in common with? Maybe one or two but I doubt that the majoirty of your friends are like that. I think that can be a reason why we the US, UK and Austrailia try to push our government structures on other countries.

I know that the civilians in Iraq will not be targeted. I however also know that some will die, and that is a terrible thing.

Rozi, politics is such a dirty field. It shouldnt be, like you said, it should be about the people not the person running.

Posted:13th Dec 2002And at the same time US government has been known to overthrown democratically-elected leaders in the replace for a brutal dictator.Example..Chile - Salvador Allende was the elected president of Chile in 1970. The CIA helped Chilean General Augusto Pinochet seize power and overthrow Allende. Pinochet then started a campaign of terror resulting in thousands killed.

All I hear is that Bush wants to get this brutal man off power to help the people of Iraq yet in Fort Benning, Georgia you have the School of the Americas who trains Latin American soldiers in combat, counter-insurgency, and counter-narcotics. Some of the people who graduate from this place have gone back to Latin countries and become dictators.Example..Manuel Noriega and Omar Torrijos of Panama, Leopoldo Galtieri and Roberto Viola of Argentina, Juan Velasco Alvarado of Peru, Guillermo Rodriguez of Ecuador, and Hugo Banzer Suarez of Bolivia. And not to mention the thousand other graduates who are responsible for human rights violations, assasinations and massacres.And yet this school is still running. It seems hypocritical to say you want to Saddam out in the interest of the people and have a school like this in your own backyard.

Posted:13th Dec 2002What really point out how badly the current administration is running things happened a few days ago when a ship was stopped on its way from North Korea to Yemen with a cargo of 15 scud missiles.

Now, since Yemen has been a staunch supporter of the US in the region it was decided to allow them to get the shipment.

So weapons of mass destruction are not permitted in Iraq, but they are permitted in Yemen.

How nice.

I love the US and I can't wait to vote this jackass out of office in 2004.

Posted:13th Dec 2002Rapheal unfortunatly the very fact that you have left the US makes you one of the 20percent or so how ever do. and amung the more culturaly knowing. the majority of the US, and most western coultures believe there perfured media outlet, wether that is a single newspaper and news program. this gives them a false analysis of events and like raymond says, most americans don't see alot of stories, they see what they are ment to see! and so you may vote Bush out, but will the people who really think that saddam is the anti christ(and in central US some do, i've met them)vote there saviour, Bush, out?

What you don't know won't hurt you? well i intend to get to know as much as possible so that i can make sure no one else has to so they carn't get hurt.

Posted:13th Dec 2002caniffis I don't know about that. I find that most Americans are against what Bush is doing. The reason you may not hear to many opposing views is because to be anti-bush or anti-war right now would be unpatriotic.There was a march I believe on April in Washington DC where over 100,000 people showed up to oppose the Bush agenda. That's a lot of people but you never heard about that in the news. I live in Canada and I get both CNN and CBC (kinda like BBC) and the difference in the news coverage is incrediable. On that note has anyone here seen Bowling for Columbine? If you haven't you seen it, it's a must.

Posted:13th Dec 2002The deal with the thing in Yemmen is that the misiles had no warheads. Basically they are a big firecracker. Pozee could probably divulge more info than I seen as how he worked with ordanace. With out a warhead it could still kill, but tobacco is more deadly than those Scuds.

The media plays what gets viewers attention, it is more about raitings and money than news. Capitalism at its best.

I dont think that there is another option or in better words another leagle action, to get rid of Saddam. I would deffinatly be in favor of a lagitamate way to get rid of him that didnt involve war. I just dont see a way around it.

Posted:13th Dec 2002I'm Canadian, and as many know the opinion of Bush up here is he's a morron (Thats the oficial opinion of our gov last I checked anyway *grins*)I personally don't think Bush is any better than Osama Bin Laden, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini (I don't know how to spell it the Italian Dictator). Bin Laden flew some planes into some buildings, Bush layed waste to an entire country. I'm not saying Bin was right, but neither was Bush. Hope they're both reincarnated as dung beatles.

In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.

Posted:13th Dec 2002See now I am getting agrivated, you are making comments and dont even know what you are talking about.

90% of the fighting happend in the middle of the Afgani mountains. Very few buildings in towns were touched by American or allied forces.I would say that 98% of all casualties were combatents, in other words people fighting. I dont have any proof to back that up, but it is closer to the truth than what you just said.

No cities were laid to waste, no mass amounts of civilian casualties, no mosks blown up, no orphanages burnt and no wells poisond.

Posted:14th Dec 2002Ray The US has the option of working through the UN and if his adminstration has evidence of Iraq producing weapons of mass destruction, let see it. Once the US undermines the U.N. Charter, what will stop other nations from launching pre-emptive strikes against their "enemies" when they perceive such an attack to be in their national interest? Just yesterday I heard that women in Iraq where protesting and asking the US to work with the UN.Noone is saying that they don't want Saddam out of power. I think we can all agree he is terrible man but it's scary to see a country disregard the UN the way the Bush adminstration has.

Posted:14th Dec 2002The US is working with the UN. Thats why there was a 15,000 or so page report deliverd to the US and the UN and other parties a few days ago, thats why there hasnt been an attack. I would love to produce proof that Saddam is doing things illeagle and has weapons of massdestruction, but unfortunatly I dont have that.

The war has not started, why do you insist on talking as if it has?

What if Saddam dies tomorrow of a heartattack and a new more world friendly regime is put in place?

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and stop pointing fingers. Need I remind everyone that hindsight is 20/20.

Posted:14th Dec 2002Bush has said that with or without UN support he is going to invade Iraq. That's what I meant by not working with UN. The UN charter is put into place to keep countries from attacking when and where they please. What scares me is the message that is beening sent to other countries when a superpower makes those sort of statements.

quote:I would love to produce proof that Saddam is doing things illeagle and has weapons of massdestruction, but unfortunatly I dont have that. I said "his adminstration" meaning the Bush adminstration who have said that they have evidence of Iraq producing weapons of mass destruction but to date have failed to present it.

Posted:14th Dec 2002Ray what about all those cluster bombs dropped on Afgani villiges? Who's to say who the combatints were? I agree that there were probably Combatints in them, but what about those combatants families? Just because they treat women and children like garbage doesn't mean we have the right to. In WWII the Allies showed campassion to POW's and gave them some freedom. Even when our POW's where being sent to Death camps. And Afganistan aside: How many times have whole Iraqi cities been leveled? What about all those soldiers who came back sick from the gulf, and are then ignored by there Government. The US already have enough weapons of mass destruction to destroy the world several times over? What difference does a few more make? I'm going to say it, I may anger some but it's in my rights to say so. Bush is a powerfull leader, but he's also not that bright (As my gov says a moron hehe.) and that is a Dangerous combination. I think Bush needs to spend more time and money on improving the standard of living in his country not making war. If the G8 Countries are so great why do we insist on making barbaric things suchas war.

[ 14. December 2002, 07:36: Message edited by: Frost ]

In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.

Posted:14th Dec 2002Peace cannot be achieved through force, only through understanding.

In order to understand, one must be knowledgable as to ALL the facts and that is something very few American people have easy access to (or most people in the world, for that matter).

Preconcived notions are everywhere, and everybody has them. One must open the mind and use intuition and your soul to decipher the truths and read between the lines in the sea of information, misinformation, propaganda, one-sided-arguments, selfish view points, censorship (yes, the USA has this too) and lies.

Rich people are rarely able to see past their own selfish motives (because love of money corrupts). and unfortunatly our world is controled by the elite, the rich.

I was disturbed to note that GW Bush has threatend the use of nukes if Saddam uses Weapons of mass destruction on us. This seams to disregard the millions of people in Iraq who are either innocent or actually support us, and there are many people in Iraq who want Saddam out.

Most middle eastern countries with goverments that hate the USA, have a majority of citizens who love the USA.

FACT

Most middle eastern countries with governments that are allied to the USA, have a majority of citizens who hate the USA.

Why is this?

Because most middle eastern countries have governments that are brutal and opressive to their citizens. If their government likes the USA, then the people see us as allied with their oppressors. If their government hates the USA, then the people see the USA as a symbol of hope.

Again WHY???

Because a hundred years ago the middle eastern KINGS were kings of a thousand camels and a hundred wives. They had no ablity to "oppress" their people even when they wanted to. Now, thanks to the west's greed for oil, we have given them billions upon billions of dollars, which has allowed them to become kings of armies and tanks and planes and bombs, but along with all that power came few responsabilities to their people.

Posted:15th Dec 2002I would love to see the military have Bake Sales to buy another bomber, and let schools have the 1/2 million dollors to teach our young. I agree with the man who wrote "all I needed to learn, I learned in Kindergarden" when he said we should Bomb others with Crayola Crayon Bombs. Every one smiles when they get Crayons, and we would have a world of Colour and Creativity.This will never happen though, especilly with Bush in office, He just wants to "Get Em' & Get Em Good!"

It is amazing how our gov't controles what we watch! I was going to school for Communications and had to leave B/C I didn't agree with the BS involved with Media and the Gov't. The one who has the most Money can say whatever they want on TV, and people will believe it because "everything people see, they believe!" I mean has anyone seen "Wag the Dog" Perfect example!

I will Fight the war on Poverty, I will fight the war on even drugs! But I Will Not Fight Bush's War On Oil!!!!! (The Greedy Basterd) ((And I don't care what your Gov't BrainWashed comeback will be eather Ray!))

Here's to our last drop of fossle fuel, ~Fire Spirit

FIRE IS ALIVE! IT LIVES AND BREATHS! IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS! BUT WE CONTROL IT, AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!

Posted:15th Dec 2002I would love to see the military have Bake Sales to buy another bomber, and let schools have the 1/2 million dollors to teach our young. I agree with the man who wrote "all I needed to learn, I learned in Kindergarden" when he said we should Bomb others with Crayola Crayon Bombs. Every one smiles when they get Crayons, and we would have a world of Colour and Creativity.This will never happen though, especilly with Bush in office, He just wants to "Get Em' & Get Em Good!"

It is amazing how our gov't controles what we watch! I was going to school for Communications and had to leave B/C I didn't agree with the BS involved with Media and the Gov't. The one who has the most Money can say whatever they want on TV, and people will believe it because "everything people see, they believe!" I mean has anyone seen "Wag the Dog" Perfect example!

I will Fight the war on Poverty, I will fight the war on even drugs! But I Will Not Fight Bush's War On Oil!!!!! (The Greedy Basterd) ((And I don't care what your Gov't BrainWashed comeback will be eather Ray!))

Here's to our last drop of fossle fuel, ~Fire Spirit

FIRE IS ALIVE! IT LIVES AND BREATHS! IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS! BUT WE CONTROL IT, AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!

Posted:14th Dec 2002FireSpirit, a personal attack on me will get you no where. However my quote: Gov't BrainWashed comeback is, at least you will fight for something. You dont have to fight with weapons, or even hurt someone. If you wish to fight the war on drugs use education.

You can not blame the West (or anyone for that matter) for the corruption of the leaders in the middle east.

Forgine culture will always seem wrong or different when you look at it using forgine eyes. You cant sit there using outside ideals and question why a Sultan has a herim.

The US has also been around for alittle more than 200 years, you cant blame it for everything. There has to be trends stemming back from before the Decloration of Indipendance.

Posted:17th Dec 2002my personal opinion as to the Iraq weapons of mass distruction is that the USA gave these to Iraq, and that is one of the reasons we are so sure he has them (but don't want to release our information as to what we know). We gave them all kinds of other weapons you know. And who could forget the Iran/Contra scandle. The USA sold Iran weapons to fund gerrila operations in South America?!?!?! Seems we have a history of this stuff, huh?

Brutal conflicts have been going on in the middle east since Biblical Times, I don't see much hope that they are all of a sudden going to stop fighting. There are blood fudes that have lasted thousands of years, are they going to be forgoten overnight?

It is sort of like here in the USA, Africans were brought over as slaves and it took a brutal civil war to free them, in which millions of Americans died. And yet to this day, there is a latent anger by many in the black community over this. Even though slavery has been over for 150 years. Just as there are still white people who think of black people as inferior and do everything in their power to make bad vibes towards other races. These things don't go away overnight either. They get passed on generation after generation from parents to children. So now we have government sanctioned discrimination against white males (which is currently under review by the supream court) in order to try and "make up" for the wrongs minorities suffered under decades of white oppresion.

It would be nice to just hit the reset button and let everybody forget about their anger at eachother, and maybe we could get a fresh start, but that ain't gona happen of humanities own accord. Love may be the most powerfull force, but it has to fight against the awsome power of greed. It is easy to destroy, but very difficult to create. Have you ever noticed how easy it is to destroy something? A glass, a relationship, a sand castle? and yet to make something beautiful requires hard work and patience.