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My child will be starting piano lessons at the piano teacher's house. What is the etiquette for the parents? Do I come back to pick him up when his lesson is done or can I stay and watch? Since my child is only 6, I'd like to know how he's being taught. I thought maybe I could remind him of what was taught when he's practising at home. The teacher is an 18 year-old, if that makes any difference. Is it weird to ask to stay?

You can ask. Being that the teacher is only 18, he/she may feel intimidated, though. Be sensitive. The teacher may feel he/she has to say okay, even if it's not. You may want to phone in advance and ask, rather than put him on the spot right then.

I welcome parents. My own childrens' teachers have been mixed; some have an area outside the teaching room to wait, and some allowed me to sit in the room, and some required me to be there. Sometimes I waited in the car, because I felt my child would do better without me.

The biggest problem I've had is with parents interfering with the lesson, answering for the child, making excuses for the child, disciplining the child, asking me questions, etc. If you are there, try to be as unobtrusive as possible. (The exception is, if your child is acting up, and the teacher seems unable to deal with it, step in. The teacher may not be comfortable disciplining your child in front of you.)

It's not weird at all. I think for a six year old it may be the most common practice.

Some teachers want to build a separate relationship with the child and they may not want you in the room because they feel your presence will interfere with the child's attention. Others will want you there for precisely the reasons you articulated -- you can reinforce the content throughout the week. You may want to choose teachers in part based on how comfortable you are with their approach to teaching.

I don't like it when parents are present because I think it interferes with the learning process. Children will frequently look to their parents for signs of approval on whether they are doing well or not - when in fact it is the teacher they need to be engaging with. Often the parents will butt in with "helpful" commentary too - of course, undermining the authority of the teacher in the process.

For this reason, I try to dissuade parents from being present in lessons - or at least have them sit within earshot but out of sight. I do not in any way support the view that parents need to be monitoring what happens at lessons so they can reteach it to their child throughout the week. To me, that undermines the principle that a student must learn to listen and take on board information from their teacher at retain it. Of course, I will write down things that I don't want them to forget, but it's just reminders, designed to trigger memories of what I actually showed them. I definitely don't want parents reteaching what I have taught - that is a guarantee of Chinese whispers. Sometimes it takes some effort to impress this upon parents. They may be used to guiding their children through everything they do. But I still work hard to make sure that they realise that getting involved in their child's practice, beyond encouraging them to do it, is not productive and damages their independence of thought and self-motivation capacity.

Now, of course, all that is separate from the issue of a parent who simply doesn't want to leave their child alone with an adult they don't fully trust. I can understand that and I will allow parents to be present if they can't handle the idea of not being there. I allow it under the proviso that the parent will not address me or the child during the lesson and that they make it clear that their child will not address the parent. If those rules are abided by, it can be okay. In time, parents usually get sick of sitting in and eventually decide not to. I am always pleased when this moment arrives because that's when I can commence teaching totally on my own terms and not being concerned with what parents are worried about. Parents who sit in are generally oversensitive types so their mere presence indicates that I should always be cautious in what I say - even if I think the child can perfectly well handle it.

Teaching music is not always fun and games and positivity parties. There are times when you have to speak strictly and enforce your authority. Most children cope very well with that fact, but a lot of parents don't. That's why I always push for unsupervised lessons. I don't enjoy the complications in an already complicated process. I do it only when I can see that there is no option not to.

I encourage parental attendance; most children respond positively to what parents are interested in, and attending the lessons shows real interest. Most six year olds really aren't ready to be dropped off with the teacher. They need plenty of help at home preparing for the next lesson.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Only insecure teachers will feel the presence of the parent interferes the learning process or any other excuses. For young kids, especially, it is important for the parent to be present so that the parent can help the student to practice at home.

I attend my 6 year old's lessons every week. I do not speak or participate unless the teacher brings me in, I just sit quietly and take notes. It makes a huge difference in her ability to practice effectively though.

Teaching in students' homes, parents are inevitably present, or at least within earshot.I encourage their presence, especially with younger students, as the parent can then reinforce any practice assignments I give.

I also give lessons via Skype, and in that case, I have a requirement that a parent (or responsible adult) is present at ALL times.

The only time I have a problem, is when I need to check a student's behaviour/attitude, and a parent is present, who does not immediately back me up. These cases are rare, but when they occur, are extremely frustrating.

Only insecure teachers will feel the presence of the parent interferes the learning process or any other excuses. For young kids, especially, it is important for the parent to be present so that the parent can help the student to practice at home.

That's a highly arrogant statement to make, Ronald. I am perfectly able to handle having a parent being present, but I prefer not to. I believe it does interfere with the teaching process because you spend time directing information to the parent, either consciously or subconsciously. I would rather focus all my attention on the student and not have to think about whether a parent is understanding why I'm doing it that way.

As regards the parental monitoring at home, if a parent doesn't sit in on lessons, I will give them regular updates of what we are doing in lessons and what things they might watch out for. I certainly don't want them to become second teachers - that can certainly dilute the message you are trying to get through to a student. I'm really very surprised that you can't conceive of a situation where parental presence is not positive. Your comment comes from the assumption that parental involvement is always good and productive. It certainly isn't always the case.

It's very important that a student learns to take in information during lessons (even young ones). If a parent parrots back everything you said every day at home, it allows the student to be less attentive to what the teacher says because they know that their parent will teach it at home anyway. That can make them less focussed and less self-sufficient as learners.

In most cases, if you are an effective teacher and you know how to get the message through, you don't need a parent re-teaching everything you already taught them. All you need is for a parent to ensure that the practice gets done so they remember what you wanted them to do - and maybe look out for one or two obvious deficiencies (that you advise the parent to look out for). Maybe your teaching style relies too heavily on parental input and assistance - have you ever considered that? Have you never encountered the problem of the meddling parent who actually damages what you've taught? If not, you have led a charmed life and you only deal with perfect parents.

I do have parents there for the first month or so of lessons so they can observe my manner and overall approach and have confidence in what they are paying for. After that, I prefer them to not to be there. By the way, I've met heaps of teachers with exactly the same feelings on this as I have. They weren't all insecure excuse makers either.

Honestly, to make such a sweeping and judgemental statement that teachers who prefer parents not be there are "insecure" and making "excuses", well, I've just lost a lot of respect for you. Maybe you could take people's preferences as being reasoned and applicable to their method before you make moral judgements of the kind you did.

Children will frequently look to their parents for signs of approval on whether they are doing well or not - when in fact it is the teacher they need to be engaging with. Often the parents will butt in with "helpful" commentary too - of course, undermining the authority of the teacher in the process.

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I encourage parental attendance; most children respond positively to what parents are interested in, and attending the lessons shows real interest.

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Only insecure teachers will feel the presence of the parent interferes the learning process or any other excuses.

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I encourage their presence, especially with younger students, as the parent can then reinforce any practice assignments I give.

The world is full of different preferences and differing attitudes. People can agree that the issue is mixed or nuanced, yet their own experiences will cause them to weight the pros and the cons of parental involvement/interference very differently.

As a parent with a musical background, I have faced this. My son's first teacher welcomed me to sit in at the beginning. I effectively reinforced the material at home. I was also not shy about teaching him at home and introducing new stuff like exercises. Heck, I once introduced a new piece (I can practically see most of the teachers cringing about now ). BTW, I did this over the summer when lessons were not in session. Yet his teacher saw the gain and worked with me. I showed her that more rapid progress (than she was used to seeing) was indeed possible.

She also saw the risk of "two masters" and she was not shy about reining me in where and when she thought that was appropriate. In his fourth year, I was banished from the lessons for a few months. She really wanted his undivided attention for a while. I did not resist (resistance is futile, after all ... ). After a few months I was brought back into the picture, again because I could reinforce ideas at home and that process was useful. I think she also realized that I WAS at home, and that I probably couldn't resist the temptation to help/meddle (depending on your POV, of course ). For better or for worse, she worked with what she had. The parent-teacher relationship is complex, and often individual-specific. The relationship also can evolve positively .... or destructively.

I guess I'm a believer in flexibility. Have one strong policy .... NO PARENTS AT THE LESSONS ... and, well, people like me will not send students to you. It's as simple as that. Now, that may work very well for you. You want one type of student/family because that is what YOU need in order to be productive. That's fine. But be careful not to assume that this means that your way is generalizable.

I guess I'm a believer in flexibility. Have one strong policy .... NO PARENTS AT THE LESSONS ... and, well, people like me will not send students to you. It's as simple as that. Now, that may work very well for you. You want one type of student/family because that is what YOU need in order to be productive. That's fine. But be careful not to assume that this means that your way is generalizable.

I don't have a policy, just a preference. I will defer to the parent's wishes after explaining why I generally prefer to teach them alone. It's not a dictatorship, the customer's wishes will be respected by me, every time. I also have situations where the child does need a parent present. Some children who are a bit "difficult" are often better with the parent there because they can play the role of enforcer, while you can focus on the teaching (and avoid becoming the bad guy).

I do offer flexibility in my approach. If you have read my other posts on teaching, you would know this. I am surprised that expressing a preference and giving some reasoning can be misinterpreted as having a blanket, rigid policy that would drive people away. I don't, and it doesn't.

We are capable of discerning the difference between preference and policy, aren't we?

We've had teachers with different preferences. One didn't like parents' presence but he would allow if the parent insists. I didn't stay but the teacher gave me a few minutes' review at the end of each lesson so that I could help with practice. One teacher would allow parents to stay if the kid is very young and if the parent appears to be reasonable. One teacher allows all parents to stay unless anyone shows bad behavior (and all parents do stay because this teacher's students and their families all take music lessons seriouly)...

So just ask and I'm sure a reasonable arrangement is easy to reach between reasonable people.

Reread your long response to RonaldSteinway (who I will agree is very prone to aggressive generalization). It is full of assertions on one side of the issue:

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I believe it does interfere with the teaching process because you spend time directing information to the parent, either consciously or subconsciously.

... and that is all bad? Heck, explicitly direct some of your teaching at the parent and wonders may happen!

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It's very important that a student learns to take in information during lessons (even young ones). If a parent parrots back everything you said every day at home, it allows the student to be less attentive to what the teacher says because they know that their parent will teach it at home anyway. That can make them less focussed and less self-sufficient as learners.

I love the "parents parrot back" remark. Sounds a bit disrespectful of other people.

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In most cases, if you are an effective teacher and you know how to get the message through, you don't need a parent re-teaching everything you already taught them.

I have heard many a teacher here vehemently disagree with this position and suggest instead that 30 minutes per week of your time is woefully inadequate compared to the far greater time the student spends at home with their parents, many of whom can bring great sensitivity and skill to the table in helping to advance their children's musical skills and interest level.

We are capable of discerning the difference between preference and policy, aren't we?

Yes, we are. But in this case I think it's a distinction without a difference. A strong preference can't help but be made manifest over time. It will affect the way you relate to the parents. This is not necessarily a bad thing. You should find parents you are comfortable working with.

Whatever the etiquette, for a 6-year old, I would want to sit in on a few lessons for safety's sake. I am speaking as a parent. I would expect to be quiet, out of eye-line of the child. But I wouldn't be happy leaving my 6-year old with a teacher they don't know (and I don't necessarily trust) and if the teacher wasn't OK with that, then I would look for a different teacher.

I like it when parents can sit in because it helps them understand what I teach and how. Sometimes I find without this they have unrealistic expectations.

Cheeky, I would ask the teacher but I would also ask her what she would like me to do and not do during lessons. You can also ask what role you should play while your child practices. This way you are also empowering this young teacher, rather than being an imposing older person.

At 18 the teacher probably hasn't had the experience to develop a preference. Personally, I'd reconsider the teacher unless she is being mentored by a more experienced teacher. Beginners need someone who knows what they're doing so you don't have to undo things later.

At 18 the teacher probably hasn't had the experience to develop a preference. Personally, I'd reconsider the teacher unless she is being mentored by a more experienced teacher. Beginners need someone who knows what they're doing so you don't have to undo things later.

I think of teaching my niece tho and cringe. Her mother is a good parent and not a good parent. It has taken me some time to know how to motivate the niece, how to focus her ADHD type attention span, and how to assess the way she absorbs information. It doesn't help when mom says '(little Mary)* pay attention!.. not one bit... and Little Mary will use her mom to manipulate.

To make a long story short, I've asked Mr. apple to engage 'mom'. They have plenty of business things to talk about and politics.

For an 18 year old teacher (no offense please to young teachers) I think I would want to sit in.

_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

We are capable of discerning the difference between preference and policy, aren't we?

Yes, we are. But in this case I think it's a distinction without a difference. A strong preference can't help but be made manifest over time. It will affect the way you relate to the parents. This is not necessarily a bad thing. You should fine parents you are comfortable working with.

No, it isn't. In situations where I can see a real benefit or need for the parent to be there, I have no problem with that - in fact, I welcome it. That's already a difference.

Let's put it another way - I like to have a solid reason to have the parent there. If there is one, no problem! If there isn't, I'd prefer to have the student alone and not have their attention divided. As I said, I have no problem with the parent being within earshot. I am not up to anything sinister and have no problem with being observed. My preference is on pedagogical grounds and what I have observed over 20 years of teaching. I can honestly say that students who are nursed along by parents do not do better in the long term. Quite the opposite in fact. Students who learn to be self-sufficient and don't need to be motivated by parents usually outperform those who do, in the long term.

The other "distinction" or "difference" as you put it, is in the way you explain it. I am able to explain my preference in a sufficiently gentle way that if they remain unconvinced by my logic, they don't feel alienated by it or want to leave. In fact, I have never once lost a student due to expressing my preference.

At present, I have about 15% of students whose parents decided they wanted to sit in. Maybe around 30-40% were either not fussed either way. I'd estimate around half understood my logic and even agreed strongly with it.

As I said, it's in no way draconian - it's not even a policy. I see one of my greatest strengths as a teacher as being flexible. That doesn't mean I am indifferent to what I feel is the more efficient outcome. That is where preferences reside.

It really depends on the child and parent. I had a particularly insecure boy (he was 8 or 9 when he started with me) and he insisted on his mother being right there. She is a principal at a school, but I had no problems teaching with her watching. There were never discipline issues with the boy and I knew that if he felt comforted by her presence, it was worth her being there. Then I encouraged her to sit on the other side of the dividing wall (it is made of glass blocks and it doesn't go all the way up to the ceiling, so definitely within earshot). I did this because I thought the boy needed to develop a sense of security once he had taken lessons with me for several months. She had no problem with that, and then I recommended as he got older that she go "shopping" for a few minutes during the lesson. Now, no one needs to be there for him and he is much more sure of himself.

I have another young girl who is very outgoing and talkative, but I think that if Mom or Dad were there, they would distract her, not out of anything they did, but she's just a little tough to keep on task at times. I had offered that she could stay during the first lesson, but the Mom felt it would be best if she didn't. That has worked out for the better.

I think in most cases, it is for the benefit of the child to become independent learners. If the boy above was not so obviously insecure and the parent wanted to be there to help out during the week, I wouldn't have a problem with that. In fact, I had a voice student whose father wanted to be right there during lessons, I'm sure to learn alongside him what he could. I had no problems with that.

I think that John v.d.Brook has got it right, as he video records each lesson, whether parents are present, or not, and his students can take the dvd home with them to review the lesson.Parents can also view the video, and support as necessary.

Only insecure teachers will feel the presence of the parent interferes the learning process or any other excuses. For young kids, especially, it is important for the parent to be present so that the parent can help the student to practice at home.

That's a highly arrogant statement to make, Ronald. I am perfectly able to handle having a parent being present, but I prefer not to. I believe it does interfere with the teaching process because you spend time directing information to the parent, either consciously or subconsciously. I would rather focus all my attention on the student and not have to think about whether a parent is understanding why I'm doing it that way.

What made my statement arrogant. Your total insecurity that makes you think that the presence of the parent interfere you. The parent just sit there watching what you do. If you have full control of the student, the student will pay attention to you. Your inability to control the student that makes them to do other thing.

Again, I affirm that teachers insecurity that will make them think this way. If you have nothing to hide, you will not care whether 1 parent, 2 parents, or even uncles and aunts around.

I attend my 6 year old's lessons every week. I do not speak or participate unless the teacher brings me in, I just sit quietly and take notes. It makes a huge difference in her ability to practice effectively though.

I love when the parent attends the class, it will help tremendously. The kid feels that the parent care and more importantly, the parent will be able to help.

Remember that TIGER Mom book, she attends every single lesson that is why she can help her kid progress. Little kids do not have the concentration span like that of adult, in addition, little kids careless about what to do and practice at home.

Only insecure teachers will feel the presence of the parent interferes the learning process or any other excuses. For young kids, especially, it is important for the parent to be present so that the parent can help the student to practice at home.

That's a highly arrogant statement to make, Ronald. I am perfectly able to handle having a parent being present, but I prefer not to. I believe it does interfere with the teaching process because you spend time directing information to the parent, either consciously or subconsciously. I would rather focus all my attention on the student and not have to think about whether a parent is understanding why I'm doing it that way.

What made my statement arrogant. Your total insecurity that makes you think that the presence of the parent interfere you. The parent just sit there watching what you do. If you have full control of the student, the student will pay attention to you. Your inability to control the student that makes them to do other thing.

Again, I affirm that teachers insecurity that will make them think this way. If you have nothing to hide, you will not care whether 1 parent, 2 parents, or even uncles and aunts around.

Sure, Ronald, after 23 years of teaching and performing, I still feel insecure about being watched... Seriously, being observed is that last thing I'm concerned about. If you haven't noticed the effect some parents have on their children, you aren't paying attention.

Anyway, I'm convinced you don't have the intelligence to understand the point I was making, so I won't bother with you any further. Let's try and stay out of each other's way from now on, shall we?

Only insecure teachers will feel the presence of the parent interferes the learning process or any other excuses. For young kids, especially, it is important for the parent to be present so that the parent can help the student to practice at home.

That's a highly arrogant statement to make, Ronald. I am perfectly able to handle having a parent being present, but I prefer not to. I believe it does interfere with the teaching process because you spend time directing information to the parent, either consciously or subconsciously. I would rather focus all my attention on the student and not have to think about whether a parent is understanding why I'm doing it that way.

What made my statement arrogant. Your total insecurity that makes you think that the presence of the parent interfere you. The parent just sit there watching what you do. If you have full control of the student, the student will pay attention to you. Your inability to control the student that makes them to do other thing.

Again, I affirm that teachers insecurity that will make them think this way. If you have nothing to hide, you will not care whether 1 parent, 2 parents, or even uncles and aunts around.

Sure, Ronald, after 20 years of teaching and performing, I still feel insecure about being watched... Seriously, being observed is that last thing I'm concerned about. If you haven't noticed the effect some parents have on their children, you aren't paying attention.

Anyway, I'm convinced you don't have the intelligence to understand the point I was making, so I won't bother with you any further. Let's try and stay out of each other's way from now on, shall we?

Performing and teaching is totally different thing. It shows also you cannot differentiate the two.

It is just YOUR personality, the length of your teaching experience means nothing. It is just a flaw...

Only insecure teachers will feel the presence of the parent interferes the learning process or any other excuses. For young kids, especially, it is important for the parent to be present so that the parent can help the student to practice at home.

That's a highly arrogant statement to make, Ronald. I am perfectly able to handle having a parent being present, but I prefer not to. I believe it does interfere with the teaching process because you spend time directing information to the parent, either consciously or subconsciously. I would rather focus all my attention on the student and not have to think about whether a parent is understanding why I'm doing it that way.

What made my statement arrogant. Your total insecurity that makes you think that the presence of the parent interfere you. The parent just sit there watching what you do. If you have full control of the student, the student will pay attention to you. Your inability to control the student that makes them to do other thing.

Again, I affirm that teachers insecurity that will make them think this way. If you have nothing to hide, you will not care whether 1 parent, 2 parents, or even uncles and aunts around.

If you haven't noticed the effect some parents have on their children, you aren't paying attention.

In the classroom, you are the pilot. You control the flow etc, you have to really know what you do to make the parent respects you. If the parent is dare to interfere, because the parent can feel that you are weak. If you have full control, the parent will not say a thing, just stay there and sit.

If you have trouble controlling one parent, you will have big problem teaching in a group lesson with 10 kids and 10 parents. I used to teach this way, so I know what I do.

[quote=RonaldSteinway]Only insecure teachers will feel the presence of the parent interferes the learning process or any other excuses. For young kids, especially, it is important for the parent to be present so that the parent can help the student to practice at home.

That's a highly arrogant statement to make, Ronald. I am perfectly able to handle having a parent being present, but I prefer not to. I believe it does interfere with the teaching process because you spend time directing information to the parent, either consciously or subconsciously. I would rather focus all my attention on the student and not have to think about whether a parent is understanding why I'm doing it that way.

What made my statement arrogant. Your total insecurity that makes you think that the presence of the parent interfere you. The parent just sit there watching what you do. If you have full control of the student, the student will pay attention to you. Your inability to control the student that makes them to do other thing.

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Again, I affirm that teachers insecurity that will make them think this way. If you have nothing to hide, you will not care whether 1 parent, 2 parents, or even uncles and aunts around.

Sure, Ronald, after 20 years of teaching and performing, I still feel insecure about being watched... Seriously, being observed is that last thing I'm concerned about. If you haven't noticed the effect some parents have on their children, you aren't paying attention.

Anyway, I'm convinced you don't have the intelligence to understand the point I was making, so I won't bother with you any further. Let's try and stay out of each other's way from now on, shall we?

It is just YOUR personality, the length of your teaching experience means nothing. It is just a flaw...

Ronald, the pertinent issue here is that you lack the insight to understand why somebody would have a preference, but also the flexibility to adjust to the individual circumstances. Unless you have a lot of experience, you wouldn't know. Remember, I just expressed a preference based on my experience. I never said I couldn't or don't teach with parents present. I do, so your accusation is already nullified by that alone.

The only reason you can come up with to explain why I would have a preference is that I must be insecure. If you had more broad experience, you might be informed enough to know that there are pros and cons involved with either approach - it's not as simple as you make it. You don't even address the issue of teaching students to be self-motivated. Your narrow way of thinking says parents must be involved and that it's always a good thing. Sooner or later, you will probably come across the kind of situations that led to my preference. Until then, you just won't get it.

You don't actually mount any arguments for your case. Your posts just come across as just a random personal attack. If you think you aren't exposing your own flaws there, you are seriously mistaken.

Btw, performing desensitises you to observation - whether it's teaching or performing. That's why I mentioned it. I am not bothered by observation at all. In fact I sort of enjoy it, I just don't find it to be the best solution for all of my students.

Mind if I ask how old you are and how much teaching experience you have?

25 years teaching experience. These days, I teach for fun, not to make money.

I am talking about little kids who are generally cannot remember what needs to be done once they leave the classroom.

Why do you think I am attacking you. I did not even reply to your posting originally. I was making a general statement. If you prefer your way, you can keep whatever you like to do. You are the one who feels this way. As you said your argument is for your own reasoning.

You presumed that insecurity is the only reason why a teacher might worry about parental involvement. That does seem like a rather aggressive attack on Ando. How else can a reasoning person view this:

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Only insecure teachers will feel the presence of the parent interferes the learning process or any other excuses. For young kids, especially, it is important for the parent to be present so that the parent can help the student to practice at home.