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Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by Kuinn

Originally posted by SlyLoK

I just want to explore the massive world that this game is going to have. The class system doesnt bother me..In the end it all turns out the same with copy and paste builds and a skill system without a skill cap just leads to tank mages and master of all unblanaced igorance.

I want to know more about the crafting in particular though.

I think freeform character progression suits a singleplayer game just fine, but not so much a multiplayer game. In multiplayer game you have the pressure of the community to be as powerful or good as possible, which makes many gamers to roll the flavour of the month build/class, and that's not very fun imo or immersive to see all of those spellcasters to turn into hulking berserkers now that the zerker abilities got buffed.

In singleplayer game you can make the kind of build you want without anyone telling you how much it sucks and why they wont take you into a group if you run with a build like that, hence fixed classes works a bit better in multiplayer games imo.

But, every single class and level based game I played had balance issues and FotM classes and builds.

Rift was the last themepark I played for any real length of time.

Was warriors, then rogues, then mages, then clerics and then back to warriors again.

In vanilla wow I could pvp against level 60 with my hunter at level 45. I could kite everyone until and kill them slowly. Then it was shaman, then it was rogues, then it was mages, then it was clerics, etc. etc.

EQ, EQ2, L2, CoH, and on and on and on.

There is no such thing as a balanced MMO, it's not possible, and developers know it's not possible. That's why pretty much every game has this cycle of nerfs and buffs.

Besides that, ES character progression is impossible to gimp yourself. It's entirely use based, with only spells being purshased; you couldn't gimp yourself with skyrims skill set up. You can put caps on the amount of skills you can learn to avoid the godlike issue. You could do like MO does and allow the unlearning of skills if you want to switch from 2 handed swords to a one handed mace. You can level out damage so that your choice in weapons and magic come down to style prefernce.

I understand what you are saying and I'm not telling there's a perfectly balanced fixed classes style game, just saying that in a freeform progression there's a lot more pressure to be certain way to be as good as possible. In class based game no one will ask you if you are a mage to roll a shaman at the start of the dungeon, but in freeform games there's a good chance you get the "respec or get lost" treatment, or groups simply just look for certain fotm chars. I'm not saying fixed vs. freeform are polar opposites, just saying that freeform character building has more tendency for elitism imo, and based on my experiences in class based vs. freeform games.

I dont understand the "ES char progression is impossible to gimp your self" when it in fact is very likely. There have been many people on Skyrim forums for example saying that they rerolled because leveled useless skills that they ended up not using and their overall level went up based on un-used skills and they didnt like it. How about a guy who is level 20 based on crafting, sneaking, etc, and you take him into a group just to find out that he cant swing a sword, at all. It's clear that system like the one used in Skyrim could not work in a themepark mmorpg without heavy modifications (like separate levels for combat and off combat acitivities) but you make it sound like it would be just fine as is.

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Originally posted by Uhwop

I remember I couldn't raid with my hunter in WoW. Already had a couple. I had to roll a mage in order to raid with my guild at one point. Again, class based, or freeform progression doesn't change a problem that exists in all MMO's. In class based ones it's usually about playing a NEEDED build in order to make sure you can group stuff. It's one of the big questions when people start in a new MMO, "what class is need most?" It's always been that way. Tanks and healers are always the easiest class to get in a group with, dps classes are always harder. I can Q as a tank, or dps in Rfit, if I don't Q as a tank I would sit for up to an hour waiting to do a dungeon, Q as a tank and it would take only a minute or two. Was like that with every single class that gave me an option to either heal or tank and dps. I played every role in Rift to 50, and raided with a mage and a cleric.

But it does not have to be like that. No one said that you need tanks and healers in class based games. GW2 is class based game that does not have tanks and healers.

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I just hope it delivers and I never play the beta I miss it :( but from my playing games instincts I think Guild Wars 2 Will have a big big life I just want to know the cons or bad stuff about it so im eager to play it now.

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First, I'd like to present to you your own words towards the product you're currently working on:

"The entire team is committed to creating the best MMO ever made – and one that is worthy of The Elder Scrolls franchise."

Second, I'd like to say that NOTHING in this open letter to you, the developers of TESO, is based on any recent information that may or may not be true about your product as products like yours will shift & change over time through its development. However, this letter is more of a broad "this is what you NEED to know" about the product you're making, and more importantly whomyour product is meant for.

With these words as the proverbial centerpiece to this letter let me lay out the success for your product in no uncertain terms from the perspective of the fans to the Elder Scrolls franchise.

The Elder Scrolls Franchise has been, at its core, concentrated on providing the highest of quality Sandbox singleplayer "Role Playing Games" ever since 1996 with Daggerfall. Since Daggerfall we've seen MANY variations of the Elder Scrolls series that has absolutely decimated any other RPG on the market in its time to at the very least an enjoyable adventure singled around one particular group, The Fans!

Who are "The Fans" of the Elder Scrolls series you might ask? Well, it's actually quite clear once you realize what they're not. "The Fans" are not interested in easy linear quest based mouse mazes that hold your hand from place to place. "The Fans" are not interested in "Gear Score", "Dungeon Raid Weekends", or "PvP Arenas". To put it bluntly, we are NOT interested in another SWTOR. If you think going the easy route that, quite frankly, decimated the StarWars IP for the next 10yrs you've got another thing coming to you.

We want an immersive recreation of, at the very least, a product on par with the Morrowind release of The Elder Scrolls in an MMO form. That means NO instances, NO Battlegrounds, No hand-held linear questing, and NO GEAR SCORE with a giant pulsating "DPS =" indicator on our character sheet.

You must understand, you're making a product centered around a VERY specific mindset, and changing that product to fit ANOTHER mindset that had no inclination toward your product to begin with is quite simply a failure in the making. So, if all you're going to hand to the fans is something similar to the current iteration of MMOs that have come out in the past 10years as the "End all Be All" MMO aimed at "Taking a chunk out of WoW's subscriber count" you can go ahead and cancel your product right now.

"The Fans" won't buy it, and something tells me the "other" audience isn't too interested in an Elder Scrolls based on something they KNOW is more fleshed, and quite frankly if they wanted a copy of something they'll play the original.

Thank you for reading, and if this letter has come off as hostile I deeply apologize. Fans have a tendency to be passionate with their favorite franchises, and more so against them being tarnished :)!

Sincerely,

-A TES Fan

You said it better then I did. Well done sir.

Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim DawnWaiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

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OP you are right on most parts but the part you are wrong about is a rather large one.

The single most attributing factor to the Elder Scrolls popularity has been its MODDING community. It is due to the modding community that Marrowind was re-released a year later, and then again 2 years after its original release...Oblivion was released and re-released for 5 YEARS because of the insane popularity of the modding community which became so large that Steam AND Bethesda got together with the heads of the most popular modding website and created an app and mod storefront for Steam to be ready for Skyrims release.

It was the mods that extended the life of the ES games far beyond any RPG before them, it was the mods that kept the game selling long after the timeframe most games even sell in stores and kept players going back to them...hell, the oblivion mod site is still recieving a bunch of mods and downloads for it TODAY, which you can check yourself.

This alone makes doing a MMORPG for ES fans next to impossible unless they somehow allow for player created content mods. The very fact that it isnt Bethesda making the game should be enough for everyone to know that they are not really targetting ES fans, the are just using the ES brand in hopes to create enough hype. Much like SWTOR, that that...thing that shouldnt be an MMO but a single player game with online capabilities.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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First, I'd like to present to you your own words towards the product you're currently working on:

"The entire team is committed to creating the best MMO ever made – and one that is worthy of The Elder Scrolls franchise."

Second, I'd like to say that NOTHING in this open letter to you, the developers of TESO, is based on any recent information that may or may not be true about your product as products like yours will shift & change over time through its development. However, this letter is more of a broad "this is what you NEED to know" about the product you're making, and more importantly whomyour product is meant for.

With these words as the proverbial centerpiece to this letter let me lay out the success for your product in no uncertain terms from the perspective of the fans to the Elder Scrolls franchise.

The Elder Scrolls Franchise has been, at its core, concentrated on providing the highest of quality Sandbox singleplayer "Role Playing Games" ever since 1996 with Daggerfall. Since Daggerfall we've seen MANY variations of the Elder Scrolls series that has absolutely decimated any other RPG on the market in its time to at the very least an enjoyable adventure singled around one particular group, The Fans!

morrowind, oblivion & skyrim are not sandboxes, they are open world themeparks

Who are "The Fans" of the Elder Scrolls series you might ask? Well, it's actually quite clear once you realize what they're not. "The Fans" are not interested in easy linear quest based mouse mazes that hold your hand from place to place. "The Fans" are not interested in "Gear Score", "Dungeon Raid Weekends", or "PvP Arenas". To put it bluntly, we are NOT interested in another SWTOR. If you think going the easy route that, quite frankly, decimated the StarWars IP for the next 10yrs you've got another thing coming to you.

nothing so far suggests this game is like tor

We want an immersive recreation of, at the very least, a product on par with the Morrowind release of The Elder Scrolls in an MMO form. That means NO instances, NO Battlegrounds, No hand-held linear questing, and NO GEAR SCORE with a giant pulsating "DPS =" indicator on our character sheet.

there are instances in skyrim, every time you enter a town it instances, every time you enter a dungeon. They have said the world is open, inlcude open non instanced dungeons. There is also no quest hubs and hand held linear questing, they already said "no quests hubs" and "just wander off and find dungeons". Unfortunately they are doing some sort of instanced PVP - my guess is that will be for while leveling only and not end game, see on who is making the game, regardless the 3 way confilict in cyrodill will be "the pinacle" of the pvp

You must understand, you're making a product centered around a VERY specific mindset, and changing that product to fit ANOTHER mindset that had no inclination toward your product to begin with is quite simply a failure in the making. So, if all you're going to hand to the fans is something similar to the current iteration of MMOs that have come out in the past 10years as the "End all Be All" MMO aimed at "Taking a chunk out of WoW's subscriber count" you can go ahead and cancel your product right now.

its not copying wow though is it, its copying daoc if anything.There will be a good chunk of what makes tes tes, just going off exploring in an open world and finding stuff, clever mob / npc AI, various guilds you can join, random npc on npc encounters. The only thing I think theyve cocked up on is having hard classes, EVE system would have suited the game better.

"The Fans" won't buy it, and something tells me the "other" audience isn't too interested in an Elder Scrolls based on something they KNOW is more fleshed, and quite frankly if they wanted a copy of something they'll play the original.

im a fan im buying it, be great being able to explore the whole of tamriel not just one province

Thank you for reading, and if this letter has come off as hostile I deeply apologize. Fans have a tendency to be passionate with their favorite franchises, and more so against them being tarnished :)!

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Originally posted by jtcgs

OP you are right on most parts but the part you are wrong about is a rather large one.

The single most attributing factor to the Elder Scrolls popularity has been its MODDING community. It is due to the modding community that Marrowind was re-released a year later, and then again 2 years after its original release...Oblivion was released and re-released for 5 YEARS because of the insane popularity of the modding community which became so large that Steam AND Bethesda got together with the heads of the most popular modding website and created an app and mod storefront for Steam to be ready for Skyrims release.

It was the mods that extended the life of the ES games far beyond any RPG before them, it was the mods that kept the game selling long after the timeframe most games even sell in stores and kept players going back to them...hell, the oblivion mod site is still recieving a bunch of mods and downloads for it TODAY, which you can check yourself.

This alone makes doing a MMORPG for ES fans next to impossible unless they somehow allow for player created content mods. The very fact that it isnt Bethesda making the game should be enough for everyone to know that they are not really targetting ES fans, the are just using the ES brand in hopes to create enough hype. Much like SWTOR, that that...thing that shouldnt be an MMO but a single player game with online capabilities.

I won't disagree with you that ONE OF the single most important attributes of the TES's popularity is its modding community. I was trying to concentrate on a possible MMO rather than what it is to make a single player game :)! After all, you can do a modding community, or system, for an MMO.

NeverWinter Nights Online is also one of those ruined franchises. They don't know how to make a proper NWN game, and MOST of the content will be from players.....stupid Cryptic >:(!

But I digress, hopefully someone over at Bethesda or Zenimax sees this thread :)!

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

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Sandbox MMO's are fun, I played one for over a year and I know there are alot of people on these forums that love a good sandbox. Unfortunantly the true "sandbox" mmo will not provide the playerbase size a larger MMO is looking for.

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First, I'd like to present to you your own words towards the product you're currently working on:

"The entire team is committed to creating the best MMO ever made – and one that is worthy of The Elder Scrolls franchise."

Second, I'd like to say that NOTHING in this open letter to you, the developers of TESO, is based on any recent information that may or may not be true about your product as products like yours will shift & change over time through its development. However, this letter is more of a broad "this is what you NEED to know" about the product you're making, and more importantly whomyour product is meant for.

With these words as the proverbial centerpiece to this letter let me lay out the success for your product in no uncertain terms from the perspective of the fans to the Elder Scrolls franchise.

The Elder Scrolls Franchise has been, at its core, concentrated on providing the highest of quality Sandbox singleplayer "Role Playing Games" ever since 1996 with Daggerfall. Since Daggerfall we've seen MANY variations of the Elder Scrolls series that has absolutely decimated any other RPG on the market in its time to at the very least an enjoyable adventure singled around one particular group, The Fans!

Who are "The Fans" of the Elder Scrolls series you might ask? Well, it's actually quite clear once you realize what they're not. "The Fans" are not interested in easy linear quest based mouse mazes that hold your hand from place to place. "The Fans" are not interested in "Gear Score", "Dungeon Raid Weekends", or "PvP Arenas". To put it bluntly, we are NOT interested in another SWTOR. If you think going the easy route that, quite frankly, decimated the StarWars IP for the next 10yrs you've got another thing coming to you.

We want an immersive recreation of, at the very least, a product on par with the Morrowind release of The Elder Scrolls in an MMO form. That means NO instances, NO Battlegrounds, No hand-held linear questing, and NO GEAR SCORE with a giant pulsating "DPS =" indicator on our character sheet.

You must understand, you're making a product centered around a VERY specific mindset, and changing that product to fit ANOTHER mindset that had no inclination toward your product to begin with is quite simply a failure in the making. So, if all you're going to hand to the fans is something similar to the current iteration of MMOs that have come out in the past 10years as the "End all Be All" MMO aimed at "Taking a chunk out of WoW's subscriber count" you can go ahead and cancel your product right now.

"The Fans" won't buy it, and something tells me the "other" audience isn't too interested in an Elder Scrolls based on something they KNOW is more fleshed, and quite frankly if they wanted a copy of something they'll play the original.

Thank you for reading, and if this letter has come off as hostile I deeply apologize. Fans have a tendency to be passionate with their favorite franchises, and more so against them being tarnished :)!

Report this post

First, I'd like to present to you your own words towards the product you're currently working on:

"The entire team is committed to creating the best MMO ever made – and one that is worthy of The Elder Scrolls franchise."

Second, I'd like to say that NOTHING in this open letter to you, the developers of TESO, is based on any recent information that may or may not be true about your product as products like yours will shift & change over time through its development. However, this letter is more of a broad "this is what you NEED to know" about the product you're making, and more importantly whomyour product is meant for.

With these words as the proverbial centerpiece to this letter let me lay out the success for your product in no uncertain terms from the perspective of the fans to the Elder Scrolls franchise.

The Elder Scrolls Franchise has been, at its core, concentrated on providing the highest of quality Sandbox singleplayer "Role Playing Games" ever since 1996 with Daggerfall. Since Daggerfall we've seen MANY variations of the Elder Scrolls series that has absolutely decimated any other RPG on the market in its time to at the very least an enjoyable adventure singled around one particular group, The Fans!

Who are "The Fans" of the Elder Scrolls series you might ask? Well, it's actually quite clear once you realize what they're not. "The Fans" are not interested in easy linear quest based mouse mazes that hold your hand from place to place. "The Fans" are not interested in "Gear Score", "Dungeon Raid Weekends", or "PvP Arenas". To put it bluntly, we are NOT interested in another SWTOR. If you think going the easy route that, quite frankly, decimated the StarWars IP for the next 10yrs you've got another thing coming to you.

We want an immersive recreation of, at the very least, a product on par with the Morrowind release of The Elder Scrolls in an MMO form. That means NO instances, NO Battlegrounds, No hand-held linear questing, and NO GEAR SCORE with a giant pulsating "DPS =" indicator on our character sheet.

You must understand, you're making a product centered around a VERY specific mindset, and changing that product to fit ANOTHER mindset that had no inclination toward your product to begin with is quite simply a failure in the making. So, if all you're going to hand to the fans is something similar to the current iteration of MMOs that have come out in the past 10years as the "End all Be All" MMO aimed at "Taking a chunk out of WoW's subscriber count" you can go ahead and cancel your product right now.

"The Fans" won't buy it, and something tells me the "other" audience isn't too interested in an Elder Scrolls based on something they KNOW is more fleshed, and quite frankly if they wanted a copy of something they'll play the original.

Thank you for reading, and if this letter has come off as hostile I deeply apologize. Fans have a tendency to be passionate with their favorite franchises, and more so against them being tarnished :)!

Sincerely,

-A TES Fan

Well said ! im wish the developers see and take this letter in mind.

I do as well :)! I've tried emailing them a link to it, but I'm fairly certain it'll just get lost in the massive pile of mail they're receiving right now anyways :/!

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

Report this post

First, I'd like to present to you your own words towards the product you're currently working on:

"The entire team is committed to creating the best MMO ever made – and one that is worthy of The Elder Scrolls franchise."

Second, I'd like to say that NOTHING in this open letter to you, the developers of TESO, is based on any recent information that may or may not be true about your product as products like yours will shift & change over time through its development. However, this letter is more of a broad "this is what you NEED to know" about the product you're making, and more importantly whomyour product is meant for.

With these words as the proverbial centerpiece to this letter let me lay out the success for your product in no uncertain terms from the perspective of the fans to the Elder Scrolls franchise.

The Elder Scrolls Franchise has been, at its core, concentrated on providing the highest of quality Sandbox singleplayer "Role Playing Games" ever since 1996 with Daggerfall. Since Daggerfall we've seen MANY variations of the Elder Scrolls series that has absolutely decimated any other RPG on the market in its time to at the very least an enjoyable adventure singled around one particular group, The Fans!

Who are "The Fans" of the Elder Scrolls series you might ask? Well, it's actually quite clear once you realize what they're not. "The Fans" are not interested in easy linear quest based mouse mazes that hold your hand from place to place. "The Fans" are not interested in "Gear Score", "Dungeon Raid Weekends", or "PvP Arenas". To put it bluntly, we are NOT interested in another SWTOR. If you think going the easy route that, quite frankly, decimated the StarWars IP for the next 10yrs you've got another thing coming to you.

We want an immersive recreation of, at the very least, a product on par with the Morrowind release of The Elder Scrolls in an MMO form. That means NO instances, NO Battlegrounds, No hand-held linear questing, and NO GEAR SCORE with a giant pulsating "DPS =" indicator on our character sheet.

You must understand, you're making a product centered around a VERY specific mindset, and changing that product to fit ANOTHER mindset that had no inclination toward your product to begin with is quite simply a failure in the making. So, if all you're going to hand to the fans is something similar to the current iteration of MMOs that have come out in the past 10years as the "End all Be All" MMO aimed at "Taking a chunk out of WoW's subscriber count" you can go ahead and cancel your product right now.

"The Fans" won't buy it, and something tells me the "other" audience isn't too interested in an Elder Scrolls based on something they KNOW is more fleshed, and quite frankly if they wanted a copy of something they'll play the original.

Thank you for reading, and if this letter has come off as hostile I deeply apologize. Fans have a tendency to be passionate with their favorite franchises, and more so against them being tarnished :)!

Sincerely,

-A TES Fan

Well said ! im wish the developers see and take this letter in mind.

I do as well :)! I've tried emailing them a link to it, but I'm fairly certain it'll just get lost in the massive pile of mail they're receiving right now anyways :/!

TESO Dev - "Another one for the trash!"

They probably already have a roadmap that is pretty much set in stone, don't get your hopes up.

Report this post

First, I'd like to present to you your own words towards the product you're currently working on:

"The entire team is committed to creating the best MMO ever made – and one that is worthy of The Elder Scrolls franchise."

Second, I'd like to say that NOTHING in this open letter to you, the developers of TESO, is based on any recent information that may or may not be true about your product as products like yours will shift & change over time through its development. However, this letter is more of a broad "this is what you NEED to know" about the product you're making, and more importantly whomyour product is meant for.

With these words as the proverbial centerpiece to this letter let me lay out the success for your product in no uncertain terms from the perspective of the fans to the Elder Scrolls franchise.

The Elder Scrolls Franchise has been, at its core, concentrated on providing the highest of quality Sandbox singleplayer "Role Playing Games" ever since 1996 with Daggerfall. Since Daggerfall we've seen MANY variations of the Elder Scrolls series that has absolutely decimated any other RPG on the market in its time to at the very least an enjoyable adventure singled around one particular group, The Fans!

Who are "The Fans" of the Elder Scrolls series you might ask? Well, it's actually quite clear once you realize what they're not. "The Fans" are not interested in easy linear quest based mouse mazes that hold your hand from place to place. "The Fans" are not interested in "Gear Score", "Dungeon Raid Weekends", or "PvP Arenas". To put it bluntly, we are NOT interested in another SWTOR. If you think going the easy route that, quite frankly, decimated the StarWars IP for the next 10yrs you've got another thing coming to you.

We want an immersive recreation of, at the very least, a product on par with the Morrowind release of The Elder Scrolls in an MMO form. That means NO instances, NO Battlegrounds, No hand-held linear questing, and NO GEAR SCORE with a giant pulsating "DPS =" indicator on our character sheet.

You must understand, you're making a product centered around a VERY specific mindset, and changing that product to fit ANOTHER mindset that had no inclination toward your product to begin with is quite simply a failure in the making. So, if all you're going to hand to the fans is something similar to the current iteration of MMOs that have come out in the past 10years as the "End all Be All" MMO aimed at "Taking a chunk out of WoW's subscriber count" you can go ahead and cancel your product right now.

"The Fans" won't buy it, and something tells me the "other" audience isn't too interested in an Elder Scrolls based on something they KNOW is more fleshed, and quite frankly if they wanted a copy of something they'll play the original.

Thank you for reading, and if this letter has come off as hostile I deeply apologize. Fans have a tendency to be passionate with their favorite franchises, and more so against them being tarnished :)!

Sincerely,

-A TES Fan

Well said ! im wish the developers see and take this letter in mind.

I do as well :)! I've tried emailing them a link to it, but I'm fairly certain it'll just get lost in the massive pile of mail they're receiving right now anyways :/!