Faith (Religion)

Dhw: ..why do you need to have faith in any of the options or to have assured expectations of anything?

The funny thing is, everyone has faith in something. On the simplest level, it may be that the sun will rise tomorrow, or that their car will start when they climb into it, that their spouse won't cheat on them, or that their kids love them. That may be all the faith they can muster. For others, it's big faith in an Earth Mother Goddess, the God of Abraham, or blind Chance.

TONY: However, the more you learn, eventually you reach a point where faith is a pre-requisite to learning anything more.

DHW: You reach a point where faith is a prerequisite for believing more than you can learn.

No, I meant what I said, not what you believe. The thing about 'assured expectation' is that it is assured.

TONY: If you choose faith in blind chance, then we are all meat sacks of chemical soup o...'You' are not really 'you', ...Even the concept of 'you' is an illusion. You have no objective value, ... no intrinsic value beyond how they excite your chemical soup. All life, including your own, is a random, purposeless event. Behave however you like, do whatever you want, how you want, to whom you want, because 'you' don't 'want' anything...

DHW: ... Even if I am a bunch of chemicals, I consider myself and other people to be real, not illusory. We know of no “objective” values, but I do not need to believe in any God in order to do what I believe is “good” ... You go on to speak of death ... For me it is the very transience of life that makes every moment precious and full of meaning. Is the love of your family and friends not worth anything to you unless there is something bigger than you? Do you give food to the poor because that is what you think your God wants you to do, or do you give it because you have feelings for your fellow humans?

There is a disconnect between humans and humanity and life when we are 'just brains'. No, my love, and that of my family, is worth something because I am, and they are, more than meat bags with chemical soup. I have faith in that.

DHW: I have several purposes that are immensely important to me, even without a designer.

But if you are "just" chemical soup, your internal purposes are not objectively important. They die with you, every bit as ephemeral as your life.

TONY: It also acknowledges something greater exists, to which, will we nil we, we are subject to as the rightful authority.

DHW: ..Are you hoping to frighten me?

I wasn't even talking directly to you. So, no, I was not trying to frighten you.

DHW:Perhaps he will hate me for my doubts and my sins. Or perhaps he will love me in spite of them.

Or perhaps he doesn't need to punish you, because actions have consequences, whether he loves you or not.

DHW:But if he doesn’t exist, there is all the more reason why I should make the most of my life here.

Oh really? Why? If you have no free will and your emotions are just chemical reactions, others people's emotions are just chemical reactions, and there is no larger reality than that, what reason do you have? Note, I said reason, not belief, my faithless friend. If you hate someone, kill someone, die, or fail yourself or another in some way, what does it matter. We are just chemical soup in a meat bag. Nothing matters beyond how it excites our personal chemical soup!

TONY: If...there is a designer, then at least part of your purpose is to care for their property, as if it were a precious gift.

DHW:... I object vehemently to the insinuation that I need faith in your particular God in order to regard life and the world we live in as something precious.

I know you do. I am asking you WHY you object, WHY is life and this world precious? Just because it is unique, or at least we believe it is? Because it is ephemeral? Because it is short? Because you enjoy it? Because it has some objective meaning? (remember, the meaning provided by chemical soup is meaningless. It's just a bio-electrical charge).

Now, to some mis-characterizations of my argument:

I never said that you had to have faith to lead a good life.
I never said you have to believe in God to lead a good life. I actually said the opposite in response to David.

I never said people do not have value, I said they don't have objective or intrinsic valueIFthey are just meat suits and chemical soup. At that point, they are numbers; biochemical machines that can be produced and replaced in womb factories.

But if there is no free will, if there is no "I" beyond chemical impulses, if there is no grander purpose beyond experiencing the impulses of your chemical soup until they return to the earth, at which point everything that mattered to them ceases to have meaning, than what does it matter? Answer that for me, if you will, in an objective manner that doesn't rely on the emotional product of your 'chemical soup'.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.