Comments on: Killing Used Games Won’t Help Gamers – It’ll Hurthttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/
Read the latest gaming news, get game downloads, mods, patches, and watch game videos at Game Front.Tue, 03 Mar 2015 17:10:01 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1By: Ron Whitakerhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-359035
Ron WhitakerThu, 30 May 2013 14:03:30 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-359035@Dan
I see what you're talking about with Vernor v Autodesk. I still would want to see it specifically applied to games, as the MDY v Blizzard case was less straightforward about the license rights, although it still held that the Glider bot was infringing. It seemed to draw a line, although a blurry one, between violating the EULA and actual copyright infringement. Of course, I am not a lawyer, so my reading of it may be a bit off.
I think that there's a huge gulf between what we as PC gamers have with Steam, and what the XBox One will offer. More on that to come.@Dan

I see what you’re talking about with Vernor v Autodesk. I still would want to see it specifically applied to games, as the MDY v Blizzard case was less straightforward about the license rights, although it still held that the Glider bot was infringing. It seemed to draw a line, although a blurry one, between violating the EULA and actual copyright infringement. Of course, I am not a lawyer, so my reading of it may be a bit off.

I think that there’s a huge gulf between what we as PC gamers have with Steam, and what the XBox One will offer. More on that to come.

]]>By: folklorehttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-358756
folkloreThu, 30 May 2013 00:28:01 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-358756@Dan miller
Thanks for the link. It was certainly an interesting read, either way only time will tell whether the EULA will be held up, or not. I'm also in the USA though, i tend to focus more on world news instead.@Dan miller
Thanks for the link. It was certainly an interesting read, either way only time will tell whether the EULA will be held up, or not. I’m also in the USA though, i tend to focus more on world news instead.
]]>By: Dan Millerhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-358745
Dan MillerWed, 29 May 2013 23:45:01 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-358745@ folklore
You are certainly right to point out that the EU is more consumer-friendly on license skepticism, but that doesn't diminish the steadfast-ness to which US courts have backed the opposite approach. I'm in the US, so it's of little help here, but there is more hope in Europe. Check out this link for a contrast from a leading global law firm: http://www.cooley.com/showalert.aspx?Show=66847
It references the leading US case that I mentioned and summarizes it as well, so it's a pretty current evaluation of the state of licenses.
It's really a fascinating issue that goes to the core of publisher/developer motivations. Note the final recommendation in that article: hurry to a SaaS model. Regardless of what you can do with your next gen games, we will eventually make it to a point where all software is delivered over the internet, and the legal right to resell becomes mute when you can't physically do it. This is just a painful transition point, too early to go always-online with 2TB harddrives in your consoles and all-digital games from a cost and lack of bandwidth perspective, but tremendous economic pressure to do so. So Sony and MS are straddling the line for the time being.@ folklore

You are certainly right to point out that the EU is more consumer-friendly on license skepticism, but that doesn’t diminish the steadfast-ness to which US courts have backed the opposite approach. I’m in the US, so it’s of little help here, but there is more hope in Europe. Check out this link for a contrast from a leading global law firm: http://www.cooley.com/showalert.aspx?Show=66847

It references the leading US case that I mentioned and summarizes it as well, so it’s a pretty current evaluation of the state of licenses.

It’s really a fascinating issue that goes to the core of publisher/developer motivations. Note the final recommendation in that article: hurry to a SaaS model. Regardless of what you can do with your next gen games, we will eventually make it to a point where all software is delivered over the internet, and the legal right to resell becomes mute when you can’t physically do it. This is just a painful transition point, too early to go always-online with 2TB harddrives in your consoles and all-digital games from a cost and lack of bandwidth perspective, but tremendous economic pressure to do so. So Sony and MS are straddling the line for the time being.

]]>By: folklorehttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-358738
folkloreWed, 29 May 2013 23:28:07 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-358738@ Dan miller.
While it is a quagmire to the EULA. So far european courts have actually ruled in favor of the consumer. The supreme court over there has actually even gone as far to say that digital games can be resold. http://www.destructoid.com/eu-court-rejects-eulas-says-digital-games-can-be-resold-230641.phtml
It is uncertain which way the USA courts will swing.@ Dan miller.
While it is a quagmire to the EULA. So far european courts have actually ruled in favor of the consumer. The supreme court over there has actually even gone as far to say that digital games can be resold. http://www.destructoid.com/eu-court-rejects-eulas-says-digital-games-can-be-resold-230641.phtml
It is uncertain which way the USA courts will swing.
]]>By: Dan Millerhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-358684
Dan MillerWed, 29 May 2013 20:40:28 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-358684@ Ron
Fair counterpoint on the price issue. Clearly publishers would never go as low as some legacy titles do at used prices (that $1-10 range), though there is some evidence that this would happen if a transition to an all-digital model is complete (games on Steam hit this range with some frequency). And no, you'll never get a lower price on launch day - but even used games don't truly offer a lower price on launch day, with gamestop typically sticking to the same supply/demand price economics as publishers for at least a few weeks (even newly-release used games at gamestop are, at best, only discounted a few bucks). I think it's an unfair treatment of the issue to dismiss the potential that different pricing structures would open up once the $1bn+ in used game revenue going to Gamestop could be controlled by the publishers instead.
On the EULA / License issue, I didn't want to play the "lawyer" card because I think a lot of lawyers who run around and drop the L-bomb are just as likely to be uninformed as non-lawyers. Not the case here though, so I'll drop the "I'm a lawyer" card. EULAs have been challenged in non-gaming, software contexts, and courts are very hesitant to strike provisions from an EULA, especially one that would go to the core of the property right such as the basic definition of ownership v license. Courts defer to contracts between two willing parties as a general rule. "Vernor v Autodesk" is still the biggest case on this point, with troves written about it online (try a google search for 'techdirt vernor'). Enterprise software has been license-only for years now, but game publishers have been slow to dip into that realm for a while. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty to hate about companies offering the same product with fewer property rights for the same price. It's just not illegal.@ Ron

Fair counterpoint on the price issue. Clearly publishers would never go as low as some legacy titles do at used prices (that $1-10 range), though there is some evidence that this would happen if a transition to an all-digital model is complete (games on Steam hit this range with some frequency). And no, you’ll never get a lower price on launch day – but even used games don’t truly offer a lower price on launch day, with gamestop typically sticking to the same supply/demand price economics as publishers for at least a few weeks (even newly-release used games at gamestop are, at best, only discounted a few bucks). I think it’s an unfair treatment of the issue to dismiss the potential that different pricing structures would open up once the $1bn+ in used game revenue going to Gamestop could be controlled by the publishers instead.

On the EULA / License issue, I didn’t want to play the “lawyer” card because I think a lot of lawyers who run around and drop the L-bomb are just as likely to be uninformed as non-lawyers. Not the case here though, so I’ll drop the “I’m a lawyer” card. EULAs have been challenged in non-gaming, software contexts, and courts are very hesitant to strike provisions from an EULA, especially one that would go to the core of the property right such as the basic definition of ownership v license. Courts defer to contracts between two willing parties as a general rule. “Vernor v Autodesk” is still the biggest case on this point, with troves written about it online (try a google search for ‘techdirt vernor’). Enterprise software has been license-only for years now, but game publishers have been slow to dip into that realm for a while. Don’t get me wrong, there’s plenty to hate about companies offering the same product with fewer property rights for the same price. It’s just not illegal.

]]>By: demizehttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-358632
demizeWed, 29 May 2013 18:09:03 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-358632Aww the poor video game industry is all bent out of shape over used games. The suffering there enduring must be horrid. Lol..not. They have to go after the poor man that can only afford used games. Its almost like the rich blaming the poor why there not more rich.Aww the poor video game industry is all bent out of shape over used games. The suffering there enduring must be horrid. Lol..not. They have to go after the poor man that can only afford used games. Its almost like the rich blaming the poor why there not more rich.
]]>By: Ron Whitakerhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-358505
Ron WhitakerWed, 29 May 2013 12:48:17 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-358505@Dan:
#1 assumes that a judge ratifies that agreement. We've never had an EULA seriously challenged in court. I've always wondered how that would shake out.
#2 assumes that MS, while having every XBox One owner as a captive market that can't buy used games anywhere else, will see fit to move the prices of their games down like GameStop does. I'm sure prices will go down as games age, but it's VERY likely that there will be a hard floor around $19.99, like we've seen with the various 'Greatest Hits' programs, or with Call of Duty titles on Steam. Meanwhile, used copies can get down to $5 - $10 fairly regularly.@Dan:

#1 assumes that a judge ratifies that agreement. We’ve never had an EULA seriously challenged in court. I’ve always wondered how that would shake out.

#2 assumes that MS, while having every XBox One owner as a captive market that can’t buy used games anywhere else, will see fit to move the prices of their games down like GameStop does. I’m sure prices will go down as games age, but it’s VERY likely that there will be a hard floor around $19.99, like we’ve seen with the various ‘Greatest Hits’ programs, or with Call of Duty titles on Steam. Meanwhile, used copies can get down to $5 – $10 fairly regularly.

]]>By: Dan Millerhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-358255
Dan MillerWed, 29 May 2013 00:48:55 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-3582551. From your wikipedia legal citation (lol at that): 'For the first sale doctrine to apply, lawful "ownership" of the copy or phonorecord is required. As §109(d) prescribes, first sale doctrine does not apply if the possession of the copy is "by rental, lease, loan, or otherwise without acquiring ownership of it."'
First sale doctrine could be removed from video games in as long as it takes for a lawyer to revise an agreement.
2. The theory on the price point is NOT that it will go down at launch, but that it will go down after sales slow. It's a concept called tiered pricing, and exists in almost all software markets and plenty of entertainment markets as well. Pay 12 bucks to see a movie on release day once, or 10 bucks to rent it for a few days a few months later, or catch it for free on TV the following year.1. From your wikipedia legal citation (lol at that): ‘For the first sale doctrine to apply, lawful “ownership” of the copy or phonorecord is required. As §109(d) prescribes, first sale doctrine does not apply if the possession of the copy is “by rental, lease, loan, or otherwise without acquiring ownership of it.”‘
First sale doctrine could be removed from video games in as long as it takes for a lawyer to revise an agreement.

2. The theory on the price point is NOT that it will go down at launch, but that it will go down after sales slow. It’s a concept called tiered pricing, and exists in almost all software markets and plenty of entertainment markets as well. Pay 12 bucks to see a movie on release day once, or 10 bucks to rent it for a few days a few months later, or catch it for free on TV the following year.

]]>By: Headdeskhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-358022
HeaddeskTue, 28 May 2013 12:05:31 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-358022Oh dear, lol is talking to himself yet again. What a sad little life he leads when he has to post TWICE in trollspeak before he's had enough for the day. Surely it's about time the mods did something about it?Oh dear, lol is talking to himself yet again. What a sad little life he leads when he has to post TWICE in trollspeak before he’s had enough for the day. Surely it’s about time the mods did something about it?
]]>By: lolhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-357651
lolMon, 27 May 2013 18:08:36 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-357651I remember before the Xbox 360 came out, you had to pay extra for the HDD and that the PSN was free with the PS3.
I remember so many people crying about it, but they ended up selling shit tons of the console anyway.
Kinda like now lol.I remember before the Xbox 360 came out, you had to pay extra for the HDD and that the PSN was free with the PS3.

I remember so many people crying about it, but they ended up selling tons of the console anyway.

Kinda like now lol.

]]>By: Mr Glassbackhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-357622
Mr GlassbackMon, 27 May 2013 17:02:07 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-357622People were never given good enough incentives to keep hold of most games rather than trade in.
A game like GTA4 was a big game to start with and then offered decent expansion packs at decent prices. By the time I was done with this game it was virtually worthless on trade in and i couldn't trade my expansion packs with it anyway.
If anyone needs to be blamed for the whole used game industry killing developers situation, its the developers who create games that are so shallow, they get traded in within 48hrs.People were never given good enough incentives to keep hold of most games rather than trade in.
A game like GTA4 was a big game to start with and then offered decent expansion packs at decent prices. By the time I was done with this game it was virtually worthless on trade in and i couldn’t trade my expansion packs with it anyway.
If anyone needs to be blamed for the whole used game industry killing developers situation, its the developers who create games that are so shallow, they get traded in within 48hrs.
]]>By: Freedonaddhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-357612
FreedonaddMon, 27 May 2013 16:29:19 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-357612PS: that sh't being EULA and whatnot, case I wasn't clear on that. Bloody hell Gamefront a edit button is long overdue eh?PS: that sh’t being EULA and whatnot, case I wasn’t clear on that. Bloody hell Gamefront a edit button is long overdue eh?
]]>By: Freedonaddhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-357611
FreedonaddMon, 27 May 2013 16:25:14 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-357611^^^ This.
And that, folks, is why EULA and any sort of statement Big companies tries to feed you are complete, total BS! There's no law allowing any person or entity to just dictate whatever terms they'd fancy and make that legit. The only law we as citizens have to fully abide to is the constitution.
And that sh*t ain't it.^^^ This.

And that, folks, is why EULA and any sort of statement Big companies tries to feed you are complete, total BS! There’s no law allowing any person or entity to just dictate whatever terms they’d fancy and make that legit. The only law we as citizens have to fully abide to is the constitution.

And that sh*t ain’t it.

]]>By: Ron Whitakerhttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-357532
Ron WhitakerMon, 27 May 2013 12:25:51 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-357532*Sigh* It's almost sad to have to say this to you, lol. I'd like you to take a few minutes and read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine). Done? OK.
As you can see, the first-sale doctrine is a huge part of copyright law, and it says that once the copyright holder sells a work, its interest in that material object is exhausted, and the new owner can dispose of it as he sees fit.
Are you suggesting that Wal-Mart is violating copyright by selling game discs? Because if you are, wow.
Look around - there are a ton of people working part-time jobs or no jobs, and the game industry can ill afford to be alienating anyone in this kind of a market. Companies like MS need to realize that while games are fun, if they make folks choose between gaming and paying the bills, gaming loses out.*Sigh* It’s almost sad to have to say this to you, lol. I’d like you to take a few minutes and read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine). Done? OK.

As you can see, the first-sale doctrine is a huge part of copyright law, and it says that once the copyright holder sells a work, its interest in that material object is exhausted, and the new owner can dispose of it as he sees fit.

Are you suggesting that Wal-Mart is violating copyright by selling game discs? Because if you are, wow.

Look around – there are a ton of people working part-time jobs or no jobs, and the game industry can ill afford to be alienating anyone in this kind of a market. Companies like MS need to realize that while games are fun, if they make folks choose between gaming and paying the bills, gaming loses out.

]]>By: folklorehttp://www.gamefront.com/how-killing-used-games-will-hurt-gamers/comment-page-1/#comment-357223
folkloreSun, 26 May 2013 19:06:00 +0000http://www.gamefront.com/?p=222507#comment-357223@lol
If stores that sell other companies products are criminals, that makes you complacent in the crime by buying from them. Last i heard aiding a criminal is a felony.@lol
If stores that sell other companies products are criminals, that makes you complacent in the crime by buying from them. Last i heard aiding a criminal is a felony.
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