First off, just want to say that my connection to Star Wars is limited to the theatrical films only (for whatever reason, I never seemed to want to get into all the fan fiction, Iíve always preferred to focus and enjoy the saga solely as a cinematic experience) so youíll have to forgive me for my limited knowledge for anything outside the theatrical storyline.

That's fine. Everything I'm discussing is just from the movies anyway.

It's amazing what propaganda can do to change people's knowledge and perception of history. We're often taught that during WWII, the Allies were the "good guys" and Axis Powers were "bad guys." But even the children's "Horrible Histories" book series points out the fallacy of this perception, pointing out that in reality atrocities were committed on both sides. We hear lots about atrocities committed by Axis forces, but how often have you heard about atrocities committed by Allies? How often do you hear about the atrocities committed by the Anzacs during the Kokoda campaign? The Nazi party has been universally associated with all things evil, but the fact was that there were some good people in that party. Oskar Schindler would be the most well known, due to the Spielberg movie, but there were many others such as John Rabe etc. And of course, Benjamin Netanyahu's recent comments is just doing wonders for Israeli-Palestinian relations. Heck, there's a lot of misconceptions about wars that are happening right now! The Assad regime is arguably a greater threat to Syrians than ISIS. The recent tragedy in Parramatta was enacted by a boy of Kurdish ethnicity, despite the fact that the Kurds are actually fighting on the front line against ISIS. Heck, just a few days ago I saw someone make an online post, criticising NSW Police's motto, claiming that having a Latin motto is "foreign and unpatriotic." Ya know... despite the fact that English, a West Germanic language, is also foreign to Australia... and the fact that the words 'foreign' and 'patriotic' (as well as numerous other words in her full post) are of Latin origin.

So yeah, despite everything that's happened, it wouldn't surprise me if facts and information became diluted and corrupted through time. And it's often said that "history is seen through the eyes of the victors," so considering that the Jedi ultimately lost (thus allowing the Empire to rise), it's believable that they may have faded into obscurity. And the Sith were never about revealing themselves to the galaxy anyway. As you've said, probably nobody outside of Luke's personal circle would've been aware of what was happening with him and Vader. The fact that Vader was once Anakin Skywalker probably still remains a great secret to most people.

As for Han's character shift, we can actually see it even as he's taking his reward money away.Luke:"Okay. Take care of yourself Han. I guess that's what you're best at isn't it?"Han:"Hey, Luke. May the Force be with you."
(A New Hope)

And Han never says anything cynical about the Force after that moment. If you equate it role playing game alignments, Han arguably starts off as being True Neutral or Chaotic Good, but by the time he reaches Yavin, has begun shifting towards being Neutral Good. Who knows how Han Solo's character may have developed in the intervening decades between Episodes VI and VII. Is he Chaotic Good, or is he Lawful Good? Time will tell. But Han definitely moved past being the selfish True Neutral or Chaotic Good character that he was prior to his arrival on Yavin. Yep... Han Solo had more character development in A New Hope than every Transformer combined in the live action films.

It's amazing what propaganda can do to change people's knowledge and perception of history. We're often taught that during WWII, the Allies were the "good guys" and Axis Powers were "bad guys." But even the children's "Horrible Histories" book series points out the fallacy of this perception, pointing out that in reality atrocities were committed on both sides. We hear lots about atrocities committed by Axis forces, but how often have you heard about atrocities committed by Allies? How often do you hear about the atrocities committed by the Anzacs during the Kokoda campaign? The Nazi party has been universally associated with all things evil, but the fact was that there were some good people in that party. Oskar Schindler would be the most well known, due to the Spielberg movie, but there were many others such as John Rabe etc. And of course, Benjamin Netanyahu's recent comments is just doing wonders for Israeli-Palestinian relations. Heck, there's a lot of misconceptions about wars that are happening right now! The Assad regime is arguably a greater threat to Syrians than ISIS. The recent tragedy in Parramatta was enacted by a boy of Kurdish ethnicity, despite the fact that the Kurds are actually fighting on the front line against ISIS. Heck, just a few days ago I saw someone make an online post, criticising NSW Police's motto, claiming that having a Latin motto is "foreign and unpatriotic." Ya know... despite the fact that English, a West Germanic language, is also foreign to Australia... and the fact that the words 'foreign' and 'patriotic' (as well as numerous other words in her full post) are of Latin origin.

So yeah, despite everything that's happened, it wouldn't surprise me if facts and information became diluted and corrupted through time. And it's often said that "history is seen through the eyes of the victors," so considering that the Jedi ultimately lost (thus allowing the Empire to rise), it's believable that they may have faded into obscurity. And the Sith were never about revealing themselves to the galaxy anyway. As you've said, probably nobody outside of Luke's personal circle would've been aware of what was happening with him and Vader. The fact that Vader was once Anakin Skywalker probably still remains a great secret to most people.

As much as I usually enjoy discussing political topics, I think it would probably be more appropriate to not venture down that road here since there can be many divided views in this respect, and many people tend to have difficulty in removing themselves from emotion when discussing some of the topics you highlighted, ultimately I donít think this forum is really the place to delve into those type of discussions since they tend to facilitate unnecessary division more then anything else in these kind of settings (hope you are understanding of my view in this regard, no offence is implied).

Having said that, I generally agree with the statement that ďhistory is seen through the eyes of the victorsĒ, and add that I believe perception plays a significant role in influencing peoples opinion on a matter, and when you combine that with the activating element of propaganda, being repetition, trying to promote a certain perception as being absolute truth can be achievable. I sort of relate this occurrence to how the music industry promote pop songs, if you play it again and again on the radio, repeatedly, after a while, one day, youíll find yourself singing along to it (that is also regardless if you find yourself saying ďwhy the hell am I singing that crappy song forĒ upon realising your singing it)

However, to go back on topic I also agree that the association between Vadar and Anakin would be virtually unknown to anyone (I mean I wasnít even expecting that bombshell ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

As for Han's character shift, we can actually see it even as he's taking his reward money away.Luke:"Okay. Take care of yourself Han. I guess that's what you're best at isn't it?"Han:"Hey, Luke. May the Force be with you."
(A New Hope)

And Han never says anything cynical about the Force after that moment. If you equate it role playing game alignments, Han arguably starts off as being True Neutral or Chaotic Good, but by the time he reaches Yavin, has begun shifting towards being Neutral Good. Who knows how Han Solo's character may have developed in the intervening decades between Episodes VI and VII. Is he Chaotic Good, or is he Lawful Good? Time will tell. But Han definitely moved past being the selfish True Neutral or Chaotic Good character that he was prior to his arrival on Yavin.

Well the only direct indication we have in relation to his belief in the force is that one line in Episode IV, which is fair to say established him as a cynic. We havenít really gotten another direct indication of his view until this trailer which implies he has become a believer. In the OT the force was portrayed primarily as a sort of religion, i.e. believing in the force could be akin to someone being a believer in God. When we look at it from a theological point of view, Han could be considered at the beginning as an atheist. It is unlikely for an atheist to be convinced there is a God based on discussion alone, such a leap of faith can only be made if that individual came to such a conclusion on their own, usually as a result of obtaining or directly experiencing some kind of practical evidence in their eyes of the existence of God. However, holding an atheist view does not necessarily mean you can not respect or accommodate other peopleís belief in God. If any shift of Hanís view of the force was implied by the conclusion of Episode IV, at most it would be from a dismissing atheist to an accepting/respective atheist or border line agnostic.

Having said that I do agree with you that the most significant development of Hanís character occurred by the end of Episode IV, until now that is

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Yep... Han Solo had more character development in A New Hope than every Transformer combined in the live action films.

And this is ultimately my biggest gripe with the Michael Bay Transformer movies. Personally Iím not a hater of Michael Bay, the guy does what he does, and he does it well. My issue is the disconnection between the four movies, they really are just four individual pop songs, thereís no bigger continuous theme linking them all together, they aint no rock opera (concept album), and its because of this that I canít help but feel frustrated. Frustrated because of the missed opportunity to have something more memorable, that could stand the test of time a bit better. With all the resources at his disposal, Bay could have sought to make his big budget rock opera, leave a stamp on cinematic history, and he had plenty of lore to draw from , but for whatever reason, he didnít, and has left the series empty, soulless in my eyes. To try and explain what I mean better, when I put A New Hope on, once its done the only thing in my head is to watch Empire Strikes Back, followed by Return of the Jedi, because I have to complete the whole story. Similarly when I put Fellowship of the Ring on, or even The Matrix, my viewing experience is not considered over until I watch the complete trilogy, because to watch only one is only seeing part of the story. I donít get that feeling with the Transformers movies. I could easily go from Movie 1 to Dark of the Moon and not feel I have missed anything. Watching one movie does not make me feel like I have to watch the next. There is no association between the series for me, and this to me is huge injustice to the transformer franchise, hence why I canít help but get frustrated at such a missed opportunity to make something which I hold fond childhood memories of, into something a little more epic and memorable. Nevertheless I still appreciate the fact that the movies were done, and were successful enough to resurrect the transformers franchise for another generation. I mean its pretty amazing seeing my kids develop their own enthusiasm over the same thing and at the same period of their life that I did, even if its the Bay movies I have to thank for that.

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My wife asked me why I carry a gun?, I said "Decepticons"... She laughed, I laughed, the toaster laughed, I shot the toaster. It was a good day.