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That said, I don't know the context in which it was said that "to test positive in the 2000s is just stupidity". It also doesn't say very much. I suppose that becoming infected with HIV is often a result of a "stupid" decision (unprotected sex, IV drug use). But who hasn't made a stupid decision in their life, of one kind or another? Maybe this person hasn't come to terms with their own HIV status, or how they became infected with HIV. Bitter.

The same human foibles, mistakes and temptations that led to HIV infections in the 1980s and 1990s are still present today. That doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying to reduce new infections, but that new / different / additional approaches to controlling HIV are needed.

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

You waited a whole 43 minutes for reply's before you complained about no replies...just so you know there are not a lot of people who sit on here all day just waiting to reply to posts.. I have made posts that have never gotten reply's but I didn't bet butt hurt about it....grow up

Many people read these types of post and choose to think through our responses before we further exacerbate the anger.

That being said, I'll "lightly" respond from where I believe he's "coming" from. Since you indicate that he's an Old Queen, I'll assume he's been around since the beginning of this virus and witnessed firsthand the devastation. It probably wasn't even a judgmental thing, as much as an astonished wonderment why people have not learned the lessons of prevention that we were not afforded.

I have a young nephew who is gay and recently moved to LA. He has witnessed my struggles with AIDS, with me being diagnosed before he was even born. I've pleaded, preached, taught and communicated with him every possible means to prevent/protect himself from this virus. If he was ever to contract this virus, I obviously would love him with all my heart and support him. But, I would obviously be disappointed and be angry that he didn't take the available steps to prevent the infection.

I'm not sure what kind of response you expect us to make, when you simply rant on a subject, without providing any perspective and use an excessive amount of expletives. I was with you when you started your rant, but you lost me when you called someone an "old queen", or when you asked if this was a common sentiment amongst the gays and if it was, you renounce any remote idea of community...

You are not seeking any discussion, you are simply ranting and rantings rarely make for any form of a rational discussion.

So, I'm watching a doco about HIV & that group called "bug-chasers" and some fucking old queen says "to test positive in 2000's is just stupidity".

Quote from recent Poz article (not the opinion of the author): "Gay men who get infected today are out of their minds. They are the failed ones, the grave disappointments, the apathetic, the careless, the irresponsible. They spit upon the memories of our courageous dead. They have no respect for our history, for our monumental tragedy. "

I think most get on their high horses, on just about any issue. I've seen people say a drunk driver should be locked up and the keys thrown away, for killing someone. Then, I will see them have several drinks and drive home. The same with texting and driving. They will proclaim how stupid and dangerous it is, but I will see them read a message while driving, or fiddle with the navigation.

People like to get on their soap boxes, while doing the exact same things.

I have a young nephew who is gay and recently moved to LA. He has witnessed my struggles with AIDS, with me being diagnosed before he was even born. I've pleaded, preached, taught and communicated with him every possible means to prevent/protect himself from this virus. If he was ever to contract this virus, I obviously would love him with all my heart and support him. But, I would obviously be disappointed and be angry that he didn't take the available steps to prevent the infection.

Wolfie

Can't help but find this part offensive (even though I know you didn't mean it that way), and in a way it points out what the original poster meant.

Even before becoming positive, I remember so many gay friends who would always make similar comments. "I don't feel sorry for anyone who is + because they could've protected themselves." "If you don't use a condom and get it, then you deserve it!" and now you with "I would obviously be disappointed and be angry that he didn't take the available steps to prevent the infection."

You'd be disappointed in him? Most people who get it aren't stupid. They know they need to protect themselves. Some people get it because they are dealing with depression and don't care despite knowing better. Some people trust their heart to the wrong person. Some people got too drunk. How about when you got it and told someone you cared about? Did they tell you they were disappointed in you or that they still cared for you?

Remember, everything before the "but" is insincere. Instead of feeling disappointment and anger, maybe you should feel sympathy instead? Sorry I'm being so harsh, but wanted to get my point across.

That's one of my fears about disclosing to my friends. I'm afraid they'll say something similar: "I still love you BUT I'm disappointed and angry at you." And imo, most neg gay people, when they think they're around only neg people, they'll make statements about how people should feel no sympathy for people with new infections.

What about the most important aspect of my post where I tried to explain why some of us old queens feel the way we do?

QUOTE"That being said, I'll "lightly" respond from where I believe he's "coming" from. Since you indicate that he's an Old Queen, I'll assume he's been around since the beginning of this virus and witnessed firsthand the devastation. It probably wasn't even a judgmental thing, as much as an astonished wonderment why people have not learned the lessons of prevention that we were not afforded."

I absolutely have empathy for anybody who tests positive. When I indicated that I'd be angry, well, I stand by that comment. I never indicated I'd be angry at him, but my grief would certainly manifest as anger. Anger that another loved will face the challenges of a life threatening virus.

No one deserves this virus and I would never blame anyone for acting human!!!!

Can't help but find this part offensive (even though I know you didn't mean it that way), and in a way it points out what the original poster meant.

Gav,First I would like to say that your reaction to "this part" was because you didn't put it in context with the rest of what Wolfie said. You told him everything before the "but" was insincere. Well I would submit that had you absorbed everything before the "but" before posting you might have tried to see it from a different perspective. A perspective that us "old poz queens" have lived.

Even before becoming positive, I remember so many gay friends who would always make similar comments. "I don't feel sorry for anyone who is + because they could've protected themselves." "If you don't use a condom and get it, then you deserve it!"

You'd be disappointed in him? Most people who get it aren't stupid. They know they need to protect themselves. Some people get it because they are dealing with depression and don't care despite knowing better. Some people trust their heart to the wrong person. Some people got too drunk. How about when you got it and told someone you cared about? Did they tell you they were disappointed in you or that they still cared for you?

It's only natural to feel disappointed when someone you love is human and makes a life changing mistake.It's not a judgment. It's an emotional human feeling.

Can't help but find this part offensive (even though I know you didn't mean it that way), and in a way it points out what the original poster meant.

Even before becoming positive, I remember so many gay friends who would always make similar comments. "I don't feel sorry for anyone who is + because they could've protected themselves." "If you don't use a condom and get it, then you deserve it!" and now you with "I would obviously be disappointed and be angry that he didn't take the available steps to prevent the infection."

You'd be disappointed in him? Most people who get it aren't stupid. They know they need to protect themselves. Some people get it because they are dealing with depression and don't care despite knowing better. Some people trust their heart to the wrong person. Some people got too drunk. How about when you got it and told someone you cared about? Did they tell you they were disappointed in you or that they still cared for you?

Remember, everything before the "but" is insincere. Instead of feeling disappointment and anger, maybe you should feel sympathy instead? Sorry I'm being so harsh, but wanted to get my point across.

That's one of my fears about disclosing to my friends. I'm afraid they'll say something similar: "I still love you BUT I'm disappointed and angry at you." And imo, most neg gay people, when they think they're around only neg people, they'll make statements about how people should feel no sympathy for people with new infections.

That's one of my fears about disclosing to my friends. I'm afraid they'll say something similar: "I still love you BUT I'm disappointed and angry at you." And imo, most neg gay people, when they think they're around only neg people, they'll make statements about how people should feel no sympathy for people with new infections.

I understand your fear. Stigma and lack of empathy is still here. if your "friends" truly feel this way I would search out new friends.

That said...There is a reason for a separate LTS part of this forum. We experienced a different world. No life saving meds (ie: death sentence at the time). There was no internet (or Poz forums). Death was everywhere around most of us. Cry me a river? Ha.A different experience is all I'm trying to get across.It doesn't mean that us "old poz queens" should be shoved into a nook here and that our thoughts and emotions aren't valid.

I know you weren't trying to do this but (there's that word again), it would be helpful for the newly infected to better understand what we have seen and felt.

If you really think about it, the term "old poz queen" in a certain context can be pretty judgmental.I don't really let it bug me but it's something to think about. (especially the OP)

"to test positive in the 2000's is just stupidity" WAS a sh*tty comment. No empathy. Agree.

Even though the person who uttered that statem,ent was incorrect, I understand the frustration when the rate of HIV infection remains stagnant, and people who saw the hardest parts of the pandemic see a yonger crowd, oblivious to the notion of pain and death associated with AIDS, treat it (and those who survived it) as irrelevant, inapplicable and of only historic value.

Many people poured their lives into safer sex efforts, and have seenthem - well not fail, exactly, but not succeed as they had hoped. And I daresay that while I am glad that stigma is being directly addressed in the media (finally), condom use will not improve upon the normalization of HIV. Between PEP, PrEP, and TAP, I suspect we will see a swing in the other direction again.

Those veterans of the darkest days (assuming, perhaps naively, that they are past) look to newly infected people with frustration. And are disappointed not necessarily in the person, but in the situation that proves they were unable, after all, to make the kind of change in the community that they had tried so hard to accomplish.

Fighting human nature will always be uphill, and ultimately impossible.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Making comments like "to test positive in 2000's is just stupidity" is a bit sanctimonious because it implies that if the speaker had known how HIV was spread that they never would have become infected.

That they never would have gotten drunk or high and had unprotected sex, that they never would have lost themselves in a moment of passion, that they never would have had a condom break, that they never would have had a period of time in there lives where they were self destructive, that they never would have had a moment of carelessness, that they never would have been lied to by someone they trusted.

It's real easy to go back and rewrite history and create a narrative where ones own behavior would have been totally virtuous. It's also judgmental and more than a little condescending.

You know, there are the good people who got infected before we fully understood how HIV was spread, the innocent victims, and then there are those "Gay men who get infected today are out of their minds. They are the failed ones, the grave disappointments, the apathetic, the careless, the irresponsible. They spit upon the memories of our courageous dead. They have no respect for our history, for our monumental tragedy. "

Respect and understanding is a two way street.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 07:55:49 PM by bmancanfly »

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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

Bug Chasing is so passé. Very 2001. Anyhoo, read in this very Forum the AIDS is now curable in Kenya. Not very "outlaw transgressive" to chase the butt flu these days. Probably mostly a mix of mistakes, passion, ignorance, lies (the classic "old fashioned" routes of transmission that got any number of us), plus a minority which is only a few who are either optimistic about HAART and all this cure talk, or a few who just don't care all that much...

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Making comments like "to test positive in 2000's is just stupidity" is a bit sanctimonious because it implies that if the speaker had known how HIV was spread that they never would have become infected.

That they never would have gotten drunk or high and had unprotected sex, that they never would have lost themselves in a moment of passion, that they never would have had a condom break, that they never would have had a period of time in there lives where they were self destructive, that they never would have had a moment of carelessness, that they never would have been lied to by someone they trusted.

It's real easy to go back and rewrite history and create a narrative where ones own behavior would have been totally virtuous. It's also judgmental and more than a little condescending.

You know, there are the good people who got infected before we fully understood how HIV was spread, the innocent victims, and then there are those "Gay men who get infected today are out of their minds. They are the failed ones, the grave disappointments, the apathetic, the careless, the irresponsible. They spit upon the memories of our courageous dead. They have no respect for our history, for our monumental tragedy. "

Recently my 16yr old Ohio-niece called me up. She told me that she had some important news to tell me but was leery to tell me because she knew I was going to be mad. Her news? She was pregnant.

of course, I was mad! I was shocked, saddened, and disappointed too. She had heard the stories from me and her parents about risk behavior, unprotected sex, unplanned pregnancies, STDs and HIV/AIDS. She knew her older brother was one of those unplanned pregnancies. She knew how hard it has been for her parents to provide for her and her brother. She knew the stories about how my Randy died from AIDS. What was worse was that she had been in our house visiting the last night before my Jim died of AIDS. She KNEW just how terrible life could be if unprotected sex resulted in an HIV infection. Yet there she was, pregnant from unprotected sex.

I had to tell her the truth. I was very disappointed, upset and mad. I also had to ask whether she had been tested for HIV. Was she only just pregnant? Was the situation going to be further complicated by HIV too?? She was crying; I was crying. I nervously waited her reply. Thank goodness, the HIV test result was negative.

I then told her that what's done is done. There was no way to change what had happened and that it was time to move forward. (losing 2 partners, 10 dogs, 1 cat and living with HIV for 28 yrs has made me pretty damned practical and realistic) So what were her plans for the baby, herself and the future? She told me that she and her parents had already discussed things (they had been mad, sad, disappointed and upset too), and that she would be continuing with school and keeping her baby.

A few weeks later, she called again. Before anyone else knew, she wanted to ask me something and get my permission. She wanted to know if she could name the baby "James Randall" to honor my partners whom we had all loved so much. I felt so honored. Even though she should have known better, even though she knew I had been mad, my Ohio-niece knew how much I really loved and cared for her and that I was no longer mad; but concerned and happy about the impending birth.

well James Randall arrived 12 weeks early, and after 2 weeks is still in the hospital. He's doing really well; but he's just got more growing to do before he can go home. Mom, who is doing well herself, visits every day and posts pix to Facebook for Uncle Mikie to see (since I'm living states away now).

Pregnancies, STDs, HIV infection - all come about because of the risk behavior of unprotected sex. The initial reaction, from her parents, Uncle mikie, Grandma, some of her friends etc were all equal measures of anger, sadness, frustration, and disappointment; but the reasoned thoughtful feelings for moving forward were concern, support, determination and happiness - on the part of everyone.

as a peer counselor, or maybe just as an LTS, myself every 23-yr old male that comes into the clinic newly infected brings about feelings of anger, sadness, frustration, and disappointment in me. I have to wonder how the client missed out on education about HIV? I have to wonder where we failed to provide the education and/or tools? I have to wonder why the client took such risks. But of course I wonder these things - I've lived with HIV for so long and lost so much, I can't hardly imagine a world in which others don't understand the extreme risks. (Just like my niece seeing my dying partner - how could she have not known the risk she was taking when she had that unprotected sex??) But it's feelings of confidence, knowledge, concern, support and compassion that I present to these strangers (and friends) as I talk to them about how to move forward in their lives now that what's done is done.

I won't excuse it or say that it's right; but here 30 plus years into the HIV epidemic, anyone newly diagnosed should not be surprised to find that their loved ones/friends/strangers feel anger, sadness, disappointment etc. upon hearing the news. Don't many people upon hearing their own HIV diagnosis not feel feelings of anger, sadness, shame, disappointment, shock, etc themselves?? The why shouldn't their friends and loved ones also feel some of those exact same thoughts and feelings too?? What matters though is that those negative feelings are replaced with love, concern, and support to help the HIV positive person move forward with their lives.

Leatherman, you are speaking as someone who has beem, and is trying to make a positive change. The anger, frustration, and disappointment is natural when that fails.

Perhaps people not working so hard do not have such an investment, and are more nuanced in their reactions to events that do not seem to matter to them.

Never apologise for your passions. You might have to apologise, from time to time, for the manner in which those passions come out, but they arise from a deep desire to see a better world, and not complacently accept it's disintegration.

In my opinion, the loudest mouthed "old queen" is superior to the person to whom the interest in HIV, as well as HIV, stops with them.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Bug Chasing is so passé. Very 2001. [...] plus a minority which is only a few who are either optimistic about HAART and all this cure talk, or a few who just don't care all that much...

Not so few maybe. Most of the people I know are in the last category.

For future reference, does anyone know where we demarcate between 'brave suffering souls' and 'fuckwits'? Anyone after 1996 is questionable? Or is it after Atripla? What about now that the 'cure is three months away?' Lol. They should really make a manual besides the 'so you have teh AIDS' pamphlet that I got from the health department on Day 1. It didn't mention anything about which class of pozzie I am or how I'll know which ones are the good ones.

this thread has developed into a thoughtful, historical relevant aspect of this virus. I'll now refer to us as the LTS experienced. so much of this thread reeks of the frustration that many of us have witnessed and continue to see repeated.

Call it judgmental, but I get overwhelmed at the thought of this virus still being spread. I believed once we identified this virus and understood the various means of transmission, that we'd see a decline in the number of infections. I reckon that isn't the case.

I've thought about the global aspects and wondered what we can all do. But I also realized on a local level, it was most important to espouse to those I love the realities of HIV. I won't apologize for holding my views and I hope that I scared, taught, preached, and pleaded with my son, beloved nieces and nephews the realities.

And I also have had great conversations wish my nephew about how great a meaningful relationship can be. His uncle Bill was more tolerant than I'd ever be able to accomplish. We've also had great talks about sexuality and how we might be tempted by lust.

I simply hope that I've been a great enough influence in his life that being gay isn't a shameful secret which can lead to behaviors that will influence and affect the rest of his life.

I've thought about the global aspects and wondered what we can all do. But I also realized on a local level, it was most important to espouse to those I love the realities of HIV. I won't apologize for holding my views and I hope that I scared, taught, preached, and pleaded with my son, beloved nieces and nephews the realities.

And I also have had great conversations wish my nephew about how great a meaningful relationship can be. His uncle Bill was more tolerant than I'd ever be able to accomplish. We've also had great talks about sexuality and how we might be tempted by lust.

I simply hope that I've been a great enough influence in his life that being gay isn't a shameful secret which can lead to behaviors that will influence and affect the rest of his life.

I wish you'd been my uncle!

I'm flattering myself, but I like to think that with at least one good influence somewhere along the way I might have turned out decent. I have no influence over anyone, so I just play 'bad example' and try to scare negative guys off of having sex ever again, protected or otherwise, hahaha.

I'm flattering myself, but I like to think that with at least one good influence somewhere along the way I might have turned out decent. I have no influence over anyone, so I just play 'bad example' and try to scare negative guys off of having sex ever again, protected or otherwise, hahaha.

You're selling yourself short. You're one of the most thoughtful, intelligent people here. I never had that influence either but I decided early on that I could pass on my limited wisdom.

For future reference, does anyone know where we demarcate between 'brave suffering souls' and 'fuckwits'? Anyone after 1996 is questionable? Or is it after Atripla? What about now that the 'cure is three months away?' Lol. They should really make a manual besides the 'so you have teh AIDS' pamphlet that I got from the health department on Day 1. It didn't mention anything about which class of pozzie I am or how I'll know which ones are the good ones.

You are seeking hiearchy where none exists. Rather than determine a fuckwit by the time of the infection, how about what they have done with that infection?

I imagine most "old queens" would love to step down from fighting the fight. There simply are not enough people left to care about anyone other than themselves, it seems.

I for one am grateful for anyone, regardless of their infection date, who want to make a change for the better -for themselves and the world in which they live.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

You are seeking hiearchy where none exists. Rather than determine a fuckwit by the time of the infection, how about what they have done with that infection?

I imagine most "old queens" would love to step down from fighting the fight. There simply are not enough people left to care about anyone other than themselves, it seems.

I for one am grateful for anyone, regardless of their infection date, who want to make a change for the better -for themselves and the world in which they live.

It exists for those of us who experience it from the underside.

It's a sidetrack, but since it came up: there are many ways to make the world better, some sung, some unsung, but my 'better' may not be everyone else's. Right now, for example, the only benefit you could say I'm having on the world is facilitating access to ARVs for a couple of people who have a lot trouble with this. Am I making the world better? It depends on whether you want those people to have ARVs. Surprisingly, not everyone does. They don't even want them themselves sometimes. One thing I don't do is care when or how they got infected.

Just so it's clear, I didn't call anyone an 'old queen'. That's someone else's quote. I'm not capable of being queen, but it's a position I hold in highest regard, and if I say it, it's a compliment.

This feels like one of those threads where a bunch of people are about to jump in and list everything they think is wrong with me, so I'll bow out now. A good evening to you all.

It's a sidetrack, but since it came up: there are many ways to make the world better, some sung, some unsung, but my 'better' may not be everyone else's. Right now, for example, the only benefit you could say I'm having on the world is facilitating access to ARVs for a couple of people who have a lot trouble with this. Am I making the world better? It depends on whether you want those people to have ARVs. Surprisingly, not everyone does. They don't even want them themselves sometimes. One thing I don't do is care when or how they got infected.

Just so it's clear, I didn't call anyone an 'old queen'. That's someone else's quote. I'm not capable of being queen, but it's a position I hold in highest regard, and if I say it, it's a compliment.

This feels like one of those threads where a bunch of people are about to jump in and list everything they think is wrong with me, so I'll bow out now. A good evening to you all.

This really isn't about you. I am sorry you seem to find fault in every one of my attempts to converse with you. But this passive-aggressive stuff you have against me is getting old.

It's not me against you. I wasn't talking about either one of us.

I'm not going to ignore you, no matter how much you seem to want me and others to.

I am not going to "pile up" on you either. I haven't, and I won't.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

This feels like one of those threads where a bunch of people are about to jump in and list everything they think is wrong with me, so I'll bow out now.

sometimes your self-deprecation gets on my nerves ; but I haven't walked in your shoes, so I usually don't criticize. However, you're clearly seeing enemies here (in this thread) where there are none. I hope someday your self-esteem can get a boost so you're not always so down on yourself in your posts.

I for one am grateful for anyone, regardless of their infection date, who want to make a change for the better -for themselves and the world in which they live.

perhaps that's cause for part of my frustration. I don't expect all the young newly infected to jump on the same bandwagon as I'm on trying to increase education, reduce infections, and obtain greater access to meds; but surely some of them (those "optimistic about HAART and all this cure talk" that mecch mentioned) could show up to advocate for their own ADAP once in a while. I mean I hardly ever see anyone under 45 in SC advocating for basic HIV healthcare - yet those 20 and 30 yr olds just keep testing poz at the clinic.

However, you're clearly seeing enemies here (in this thread) where there are none.

No, I don't see enemies in this thread, which isn't my thread anyway. But you don't speak for the lurkers, some of whom I have a mutually shared distaste for.

I do see a dismissal of concerns that get raised over and over about the segmenting of "our people" into the good (you) and the foolish / dumb / careless (me and people like me). I don't mind personally. I got over this a long time ago when I realized that this division was so strongly in place. I apologize for jumping in again and trying to make this an issue and will do better at not jumping into these conversations. I get tempted because I get the feeling newly poz people come here all the time and never join in because it seems like you all agree with each other, and sometimes some of us don't. But I don't see any enemies here.

As for people not advocating for themselves, I wish I (or someone) had something new to add, but as I've said, when I was in the shelters, one of which had lots of HIV+ people, there were only two categories of question/concern that were voiced with regularity, each of immediate concern. Long-term planning is a skill not everyone has. You could easily tell which type of question a person had before they asked it by how they reacted to their environment in general that day, by how "present" they seemed to be.

1) What do I do to get out of this situation and never return?

and

2) How do I entertain myself?

I'm being very simplistic, but those were loud messages. Some wanted out and would do anything. Others, probably having given up or never having had goals to begin with just wanted to pass the time. TV, sex, hanging out and gossipping, whatever. I went back and forth because both have appeal. And I don't watch TV.

My point is, at least among my "community" if you can call it that, there was little thought to the issues you (and I, generally) care about, and I don't see that changing. What has to change first is that people feel they have some agency in their lives and that a better life is actually possible, which it simply isn't for everyone. Without that, why care about future sickness?

I also heard more than once, the idea that certain things are 'owed' and will be provided for propriety's sake, ie, no one's going to just watch people die of AIDS in the streets, because it's a particularly grisly way to watch an otherwise healthy person die - especially in 2013. I didn't feel anything was owed to me, and I hate that attitude, but to be honest, I felt a little protected by homelessness, because since I had nowhere to go, nowhere to hide, I knew the City wouldn't let me just "be" homeless, dirty and sick out in full view. Bloomy's NYC just doesn't look like that. Homeless AIDS clashes with steel and glass towers and sends developers the wrong message.

Even for the people who did care about these issues: when you don't have food or a home, thinking about next month's ARVs, which you don't want to take in the first place and which have delayed effects, is not really compelling.

I should say "we." I was cut off of Medicaid a few weeks ago and am using ADAP again, so it's in my immediate interest that it be a succesful program. Huzzah.

I have a second interview for a job coming up next week, so maybe this will all be moot some day. The possibility of having a job again seems as remote to me as winning a million dollar lottery, but with larger consequences, so I don't really want to get my hopes up.

For future reference, does anyone know where we demarcate between 'brave suffering souls' and 'fuckwits'? Anyone after 1996 is questionable? Or is it after Atripla? What about now that the 'cure is three months away?' Lol. They should really make a manual besides the 'so you have teh AIDS' pamphlet that I got from the health department on Day 1. It didn't mention anything about which class of pozzie I am or how I'll know which ones are the good ones.

The manual is locked up in the HIV First Class Lounge, and they're not making any more keys.

There clearly is a bifurcation in the HIV community, how that gets bridged I don't know. But it does seem like the two sides are talking past each other some times. Both sides want to be heard but it seems like more listening is in order.

I'm neither young nor newly diagnosed so I can't speak to why the younger members of our community participate to a lesser degree. But I would imagine that the attitude expressed by the comment in the OP (and attitudes like that are not that uncommon if often expressed much more diplomatically) end up driving new people away.

Why would anyone want to be part of a community where a subset of that group treats the new members as second class citizens - never fully able to attain equal status?

I volunteer at a local HIV organization near where I live, and I hear that opinion expressed occasionally by the younger people who show up there. They feel like they're being treated as outsiders.

But as an "old queen" myself, and having lived through the dark days and having lost a partner and way too many friends, I can understand how the older members want to see their experience appreciated and validated and most of all not forgotten.

We all have the same disease regardless of how or when you got it. We have far more in common then that which separates us.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 02:06:04 PM by bmancanfly »

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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

I'm confused about what the debate is, with the "good ones" and all that. What is this?

Ted,Read reply #18. I think it explains it best.

In reality, there are no "good ones" but some of the newly infected believe that the LTS's consider themselves as the "innocent" victims. I don't doubt some LTS's DO feel this way but I think it's a very small percentage. Most of us LTS's have a lot of empathy for the newly infected but along with the empathy comes the frustration and anger that this disease continues to exist. Some mistakenly express that anger and frustration toward the newly infected instead of the disease.

It's understandable why this creates a bit of friction. Just wish some people wouldn't lump all LTS's as being judgmental and wish some people wouldn't lump all of the newly infected as careless and stupid.

A better understanding of each other helps.This has been a good discussion IMHO.

Even for the people who did care about these issues: when you don't have food or a home, thinking about next month's ARVs, which you don't want to take in the first place and which have delayed effects, is not really compelling.

having nearly been homeless myself too many times, having been hungry for days, having to wait for the next med to come along or to get access to meds at all, I empathsize with all these issues and would never expect people in those situations to do more than simply try to improve the issues in their own lives.

however with the "miracle" drugs of atripla, complera, and stribild, many more HIV positive people are able to remain on their jobs and continue with their lives instead of ending up homeless or on disabililty. (ADAP pays for many more people's medications who HAVE jobs than who don't have jobs, as medicaid and/or medicare pays for meds for the disabled, disenfranchised, or people living in poverty)

It's the people with jobs, the people whose lives have barely been affected by being infected that I see and wonder why they aren't more involved in keeping services (like ADAP) going. Surely having ADAP pay for their monthly insurance premium or provide monthly meds is worth taking a half a day off to go with a group to speak to legislators - especially in the Southern red states where Legislatures try to destroy these kinds of services each year when the budget decisions come along.

Why more people didn't speak out in NC and SC to garner Medicaid Expansion, that unlike ADAP would have covered the working poor and given them access to not just meds but actual health care services, is a mystery to me; but that lack of advocacy support is exactly why NC and SC did NOT accept Medicaid Expansion. And now the fight continues for another year until the next budget and I have to wonder if any of those more newly diagnosed people are going to bother to try to advocate for the services that do pay for their meds or for the programs that will provide them even more healthcare.

I know back in the day when a bunch of us LTSs were just young, newly diagnosed people we were out on the front lines advocating for our healthcare, so what I would hope to see from people today is no different than what happened in the past. HIV is still the same terminal disease it's always been, just the meds have changed, so it seems the positive people should still be engaged in getting and keeping services as they were in the past. I guess the immediacy of watching your friends around you die from AIDS, rather than not seeing the few who don't adhere or are diagnosed too late and die from AIDS today, must make a lot of difference spurring people on.

I know back in the day when a bunch of us LTSs were just young, newly diagnosed people we were out on the front lines advocating for our healthcare, so what I would hope to see from people today is no different than what happened in the past. HIV is still the same terminal disease it's always been, just the meds have changed, so it seems the positive people should still be engaged in getting and keeping services as they were in the past. I guess the immediacy of watching your friends around you die from AIDS, rather than not seeing the few who don't adhere or are diagnosed too late and die from AIDS today, must make a lot of difference spurring people on.

I think you're extrapolating your experience too much and using the fact that you saw no young people at those rallies to mean that young people don't care. I'm not a young person, but I don't have such small faith in them. No one does rallies anymore, not for any cause. They do other things like mailing campaigns and online this and that. The "big marriage rally" here at Union Sq. that got lots of press one afternoon was about 1,000 people. In NYC. The capital of queer people. And they called it massive.

But I can't address anything you're talking about anymore, because I don't know any of the people you're referring to. All of the people I know are suffering considerably from various social ailments and not only are not able to attend these rallies but would not be welcomed if they were. I have enough trouble getting the clinic to not treat them like shit.

I've been working with a guy for three months to get him adherent, and he has been mostly. Someone here even helped me show him that strangers cared enough to get him on drugs before I could get the medical stuff worked out. And yesterday he tells me he can't back to that doctor because they make him feel like shit because of track marks. I know they can't praise him for that, but I feel like they want to make him uncomfortable and go somewhere else. I know they give me different reactions when I call as myself and when I call as him (he won't call for himself to make the appointments, but he'll go if they're made, most of the time). Where should he go? But he's not gonna stop shooting up overnight, and he needs health care now. I need to convince him of that again because I feel like I'm losing here.

Back on topic:I really don't like the way watching people die is something LTSers have claimed as their own. Most of us were here, whether we were positive at the time or not. It doesn't belong solely to you. But I'll be told I'm disrespectful for saying this. I suppose I should just ignore all my dead friends in the name of granting you bragging rights over having suffered the most. What a marvelous prize to win.

5 seconds after posting, I read the Goodreads quote of the day "The greatest threat to freedom is the absence of criticism. Wole Soyinka"

Haha. I hope you don't mistake criticism for some kind of rage-filled rant. There's no nuance here online, but I've only been angry once or twice, and that was months ago when someone told me I was spitting on the dead or something like that, which is the worst thing I've ever been accused of and quite different from anything anyone has said here.This is a pretty friendly thread, but some people are so used to valuing comfortable silence over constructive disagreement that small disagreements seems like raging battles to them.

I really don't like the way watching people die is something LTSers have claimed as their own.

Broad brush much?

What you perceive to be "bragging rights" is often a desperate cry for help. Many of the LTS folks you seem to be keen on crttiquing are not trying to show superiority - they are trying to get someone to take over. They are worn out. They are tired. They are suffering.

ASO's are reverting to professional non-profit leadership, staffed by people who might or might not, in any given calendar year, have any real interest in the community they serve. Ryan White allocation boards, staffed by community representatives, are drying up - and with them, any say the community had in the allocation of these important funds.

Apathy is the enemy here, and it is literally killing people as ADAP waiting lists continue to grow, resources continue to shrink, donations dry up, citizen oversight boards disappear when people quit or die and are not replaced.

And yet people in the US who have no insurance, or absolutely not enough insurance, continue to get infected and wonder where these lifesaving meds are going to come from.

I am glad you are trying to help the people around you. I wish you would be less critical of others who are doing the same, and try to see things from their perspective instead of assigning them motive and then judging them for it - which speaks to the core of the (vanished) OP's rant.

You seem to have decided what all LTS'rs think, and are responding/attacking in turn - and then at the same time trying to make a plea for unity and understanding. I certainly don't think all "young" people or all newly diagnosed/infected people think unilaterally.

All I know is that, here in Atlanta (and from what I hear, in Arizona, Sounth Carolina, New York, and many other places) HIV/AIDS resources are shuttering because no one is taking the time or energy to physically be part of them.

We have more healthy people living with HIV now than ever. Yet when you look at the boards of citizen Ryan White committees, of ASOs, of HIV-related outreach, housing, food distribution and service programs, you do not see nearly enough of those people. You see faces mutilated by lipo, legs that can barely stand with a cane, thousand-yeard stares of people who have seen too much horror to even function for the most part. Fumes.

My losses do not make me superior to you. My losses have crushed me. They have darkened my soul and diminished my capacities. They have rendered me an outcast, and left me in the fringes of society.

I know of few people here who want to use their grief, their loss as a badge of honor. Most of us don't have that desire, nor the emotional luxury to do so.

Empathy is, ultimately, a two way street. Trying to understand things from a different perspective is almost always beneficial to the conversation as a whole.

That empathy is what I find missing in this discussion. All the LTS folks who have posted have tried to explain their frustration, anger, sadness, and exhaustion. But these words seem to fall on a lot of deaf ears.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Yes. The same that we all use when speaking in generalizations which I never said I wasn't. I'm not stupid enough to think all LTSers are the same, and I would hop you're not stupid enough to think I would be that stupid.

What you perceive to be "bragging rights" is often a desperate cry for help. Many of the LTS folks you seem to be keen on crttiquing are not trying to show superiority - they are trying to get someone to take over. They are worn out. They are tired. They are suffering.

That's a two way street too. Why do you think I'm here? Because I feel great? Because I'm mentally stable? Because I have so many social outlets that I thought adding this one, as hard as it seems to be to talk to people here, would be good for kicks?

ASO's are reverting to professional non-profit leadership, staffed by people who might or might not, in any given calendar year, have any real interest in the community they serve. Ryan White allocation boards, staffed by community representatives, are drying up - and with them, any say the community had in the allocation of these important funds.

Nonprofit everything is in trouble. The reason I'm unemployed is because the nonprofit I worked for shuttered its doors. No argument here.

Apathy is the enemy here, and it is literally killing people as ADAP waiting lists continue to grow, resources continue to shrink, donations dry up, citizen oversight boards disappear when people quit or die and are not replaced.

And yet people in the US who have no insurance, or absolutely not enough insurance, continue to get infected and wonder where these lifesaving meds are going to come from.

Some of us use it as suicide by virus, then that doesn't quite go as planned. But I do apologize for getting infected and placing more burden on the system. This comment sounds like it's asking for apology for some infraction, so.

I am glad you are trying to help the people around you. I wish you would be less critical of others who are doing the same, and try to see things from their perspective instead of assigning them motive and then judging them for it - which speaks to the core of the (vanished) OP's rant.

I'll be critical of anything I think needs criticism. it doesn't mean I don't respect the person being criticized. I'm criticized about 90% of my day. Criticism isn't a weapon. It's a tool. I would like the forums to be more inviting, because I would like to find someone, anyone, who is anything like me somewhere on Earth. I'll keep looking, but I sincerely feel a lot of people are put off of posting here because they don't feel welcome. But I don't work here, so it's not my place to try to make the forums better.

You seem to have decided what all LTS'rs think, and are responding/attacking in turn - and then at the same time trying to make a plea for unity and understanding. I certainly don't think all "young" people or all newly diagnosed/infected people think unilaterally.

Nor do I thinkthat about LTSers. You can say it as much as you want, but I don't disrespect people unless they do something to deserve it. Likewise I don't automatically respect anyone without reason or expect the same back at me.

All I know is that, here in Atlanta (and from what I hear, in Arizona, Sounth Carolina, New York, and many other places) HIV/AIDS resources are shuttering because no one is taking the time or energy to physically be part of them.

We have more healthy people living with HIV now than ever. Yet when you look at the boards of citizen Ryan White committees, of ASOs, of HIV-related outreach, housing, food distribution and service programs, you do not see nearly enough of those people. You see faces mutilated by lipo, legs that can barely stand with a cane, thousand-yeard stares of people who have seen too much horror to even function for the most part. Fumes.

My losses do not make me superior to you. My losses have crushed me. They have darkened my soul and diminished my capacities. They have rendered me an outcast, and left me in the fringes of society.

Again, who do you think you're talking to? You've had HIV longer, but that's it. I have been here the whole time, but that gets negated because I wasn't fortunate enough to meet a strong enough strain to take hold until 2012. We've all suffered, most of us continue, but only your suffering has any sort of validation here.

That empathy is what I find missing in this discussion. All the LTS folks who have posted have tried to explain their frustration, anger, sadness, and exhaustion. But these words seem to fall on a lot of deaf ears.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but I didn't get this from this discussion at all. But I don't get to decide that, you do.

Why do you think I'm here? Because I feel great? Because I'm mentally stable? Because I have so many social outlets that I thought adding this one, as hard as it seems to be to talk to people here, would be good for kicks?

Something worth considering here is that it's consistently hard for you to establish meaningful, mutually respectful relationships here and elsewhere. Not a judgment - you have said as much several times. Why do you suppose that is? Are meaningful and mutually respectful relationships something that you desire? If so, what steps are you taking to bring about that change?

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Some of us use it as suicide by virus, then that doesn't quite go as planned. But I do apologize for getting infected and placing more burden on the system. This comment sounds like it's asking for apology for some infraction, so.

That comment was absolutely NOT a request for an apology. I won't demean you by treating you like a victim or a child. Please do not demean youself by doing so, or insinuating that I would in any way benefit from such condescension.

You lash out when you write things like that. You realize that, right? You have taken personally things that were absolutely not aimed towards you (or any single person, actually) and then the converation grinds to a halt. You are capable of better than that. And I admit that one of my hot buttons is the ad hominem deflection. It's a cheap way to "win" an argument.

An argument that no one is or was having with you, I might add. Certainly not me.

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I would like the forums to be more inviting, because I would like to find someone, anyone, who is anything like me somewhere on Earth. I'll keep looking, but I sincerely feel a lot of people are put off of posting here because they don't feel welcome. But I don't work here, so it's not my place to try to make the forums better.

Two points:

A) By and large, these forums are VERY inviting. If I fly off the handle or feel that I have been misinterpreted/misunderstood, I almost always apologise. MOreover, any one of us is not the forum. ALL of us are. These forums save lives every single day, and provide a safe place for the most accurate and compassionate assistance you are likely to find anywhere.

Need emergency meds? Someone is likely to donate.

Need resources? Someone is likely to look them up for you.

Need information? There isn't a better place for it.

I honestly don't get the whole "this forum isn't inviting" thing when the proof points clearly to the opposite. I not cannot speak to the apparent throngs that are too intimidated or scared or angy to post. As inclusive as it is, no forum is going to be a good fit for everyone, at every moment. Sometimes people don't like what they hear, and decide that the messenger, not the message, is the problem. Who knows?

B) You don't "work" here, but neither do I. Neither does Jeff, or Ann. We volunteer time to moderate, but I for one am still waiting for that sweet, sweet POZ.COM cash flow. You are a member of these forums, same as anyone else. And as such, it is not only your place but your responsibility to make the forums better. As it is mine, as it is everyone who takes out an account.

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This is a problem with the middle class. I can't address it.

I disagree. When I served on a Ryan White Board, there were representatives of every socioeconomic class. I sat sandwiched between a lawyer and a sex worker advocate for needle exchange. One drove a BMW to the monthly board meetings, and the other took a train and two buses. Both had an rqual say in Ryan White allocation, and were an rqual part of the only oversight group for the state.

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Yes, it is. Which is why I offer it though it gets rejected if I don't agree on every single issue. Disagreement is not disrespect.

As you said, I am sorry you feel this way. But I don't get to decide that. You do.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

That empathy is what I find missing in this discussion. All the LTS folks who have posted have tried to explain their frustration, anger, sadness, and exhaustion. But these words seem to fall on a lot of deaf ears.

That's not the way I saw this conversation. Up to this point it was a pretty civil, thoughtful discussion. Not sure where you got that from.

I for one appreciate Oksikoko's perspective. It's refreshing and a welcome change of pace.

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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

That's not the way I saw this conversation. Up to this point it was a pretty civil, thoughtful discussion. Not sure where you got that from.

I for one appreciate Oksikoko's perspective. It's refreshing and a welcome change of pace.

I do as well, which is why I have taken the time to engage rather than dismiss. I am sorry if my word choice suggested otherwise.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

In a class forum, I was recently chastised and told it made me seem spiteful to quote people's words back at them and address them point by point. I disagreed with that, but different venues have different norms. I eventually had the highest "reputation" in that forum, so playing by their rules must have worked. I'll post a screenshot, as it was a class on AIDS.

Something worth considering here is that it's consistently hard for you to establish meaningful, mutually respectful relationships here and elsewhere. Not a judgment - you have said as much several times. Why do you suppose that is? Are meaningful and mutually respectful relationships something that you desire? If so, what steps are you taking to bring about that change?

I consider this everyday. I am obviously broken in some fundamental way, but that doesn't mean I don't also deserve a chance to meet other people broken in the same way I am. It's not that I'm unaware of this. What am I doing? Whatever the psychiatrist, therapist and 15,000 social workers tell me to do, whether I want to or not. I am not just sitting around complaining, though you make comments a lot that imply people aren't trying hard enough to meet whatever standard it is that's being discussed. Sometimes people just fail no matter how hard they try, and it's a little unfair to throw things like psychiatric conditions in their faces in arguments on other topics.

That comment was absolutely NOT a request for an apology. I won't demean you by treating you like a victim or a child. Please do not demean youself by doing so, or insinuating that I would in any way benefit from such condescension.

You lash out when you write things like that. You realize that, right? You have taken personally things that were absolutely not aimed towards you (or any single person, actually) and then the converation grinds to a halt. You are capable of better than that. And I admit that one of my hot buttons is the ad hominem deflection. It's a cheap way to "win" an argument.

An argument that no one is or was having with you, I might add. Certainly not me.

I wasn't having an argument, per se. Just saying something I thought a lot of other people thought. They don't chime in because I (think) I'm speaking for people who didn't stay here and aren't here now to say there's any merit. But there may be no merit. No harm, no foul, in my opinion. As I said up above, I'll try harder to avoid injecting this into other conversations.

Two points:

A) By and large, these forums are VERY inviting. If I fly off the handle or feel that I have been misinterpreted/misunderstood, I almost always apologise. MOreover, any one of us is not the forum. ALL of us are. These forums save lives every single day, and provide a safe place for the most accurate and compassionate assistance you are likely to find anywhere.

1) They're inviting to *you* because they are currently the way *you* like them to be. They aren't particularly inviting to *me* and people like *me*. I never said they weren't a great place for information and full of helpful people. That's a different story altogether. But they are not inviting to *everyone* and maybe they don't need to be. Maybe people like me should go somewhere else. However, being that there is nowhere else, it's here or nothing at the moment.

I honestly don't get the whole "this forum isn't inviting" thing when the proof points clearly to the opposite. I not cannot speak to the apparent throngs that are too intimidated or scared or angy to post. As inclusive as it is, no forum is going to be a good fit for everyone, at every moment. Sometimes people don't like what they hear, and decide that the messenger, not the message, is the problem. Who knows?

And white people don't understand what all the fuss is about on racism. I don't fault you for it, but if you're in the "in group" of course you don't see the problem. That's human nature.

And you often say people just "don't like what they hear". Please bear in mind that you are also sometimes just wrong. We all are. So someone who leaves and never comes back may have just felt bullied and without any connection to this community, they simply left for someplace they felt welcomed. I've seen posts where I would say the person was bullied away from the forums. I should've said something then, but that just leads to banning, and I'm rather a coward.

B) You don't "work" here, but neither do I. Neither does Jeff, or Ann. We volunteer time to moderate, but I for one am still waiting for that sweet, sweet POZ.COM cash flow. You are a member of these forums, same as anyone else. And as such, it is not only your place but your responsibility to make the forums better. As it is mine, as it is everyone who takes out an account.

I disagree. When I served on a Ryan White Board, there were representatives of every socioeconomic class. I sat sandwiched between a lawyer and a sex worker advocate for needle exchange. One drove a BMW to the monthly board meetings, and the other took a train and two buses. Both had an rqual say in Ryan White allocation, and were an rqual part of the only oversight group for the state.

Sex workers are middle class. You find a board willing to take someone like me and the people I know, and I'll show you a nonprofit about to go out of business. There's a lot of lip service about representing the served community, but I don't see a lot of it in practice. Of course, I stopped banging my head against the wall a long time ago because I don't like headaches or begging to be included. Maybe things have changed, so I won't argue this point.

I was invited to a meet and greet/fundraiser for a local aspiring young gay male politician. They probably only invited us "old queens" for our money, but whatever.

It was a lovely event a real nice mix of young and old.

The aspiring pol took the stage to introduce himself and take questions from the audience.

All was going well until one of the questions was "who is your favorite president". To which the guy responded without hesitation "Ronald Reagan".

snip

Sometimes we just don't understand each other. It doesn't mean there is any malice behind it.

Thanks for stuff up above.

Also, this does make me a little scared for the younger generations, but maybe it's for the best. Reagan was pretty horrible, but so was Andrew Jackson, and we seem to be OK over a hundred years after his presidency even though everyone's forgotten what a douchebag he was.

Malice: none here. I'm working to balance out to 0 and avoid Hell as it is.