Feb. 19, 2013 — Understanding how and why diversification occurs is important for understanding why there are so many species on Earth. In a new study published on 19 February in the open access journal PLOS Biology, researchers show that similar – or even identical – mutations can occur during diversification in completely separate populations of E. coli evolving in different environments over more than 1000 generations. Evolution, therefore, can be surprisingly predictable.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130219172155.htm

February 20, 2013 at 5:56 am |

Sara Howells

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcyW7rMYR7A&w=640&h=390]
;.

February 19, 2013 at 9:11 pm |

Universe

Islamic scripture (Quran says)

“The life of this world is no more than illusion and vanity, while the abode of the Hereafter is far better for the righteous. Do you not understand?! [6:32]
“They do not value God as He should be valued. God is the Most Powerful, the Almighty.”[22:74]

“If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of God. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.” [Quran 6:116]

“They say , "We live only this life; we will not be resurrected. If you could only see them when they stand before their Lord! He would say, "Is this not the truth?" They would say, "Yes, by our Lord." He would say, "You have incurred the retribution by your disbelief." [6:30]

“Losers indeed are those who disbelieve in meeting God, until the Hour comes to them suddenly, then say, "We deeply regret wasting our lives in this world." They will carry loads of their sins on their backs; what a miserable load! [6:31]

“Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know." [2:30]

“They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.” Quran [6:100]

“The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.” Quran [3:59]

It does not befit God that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is. [19:35]

Thanks for taking time to read my post. Please take a moment to visit whyIslam org website.

February 19, 2013 at 8:15 pm |

HotAirAce

Please prove that your god exists and that the koran (by any spelling) is the true word of your god.

February 19, 2013 at 8:24 pm |

Islam: the religion that goes BANG ! ! !

So basically, no matter which religion you choose, you will always be fed ancient bullshit.

February 19, 2013 at 8:27 pm |

Answer

Hey fred..

Here are some more word salads for you to cope with:

1) New Perfection, New Perfection, New Perfection, New Perfection
–Perfection was wrong.

Looks like Fred ran out of carbon, not enough truth in the word salad.

February 19, 2013 at 5:41 pm |

Honey Badger Dont Care

@John
“But when I see "End Religion" on this blog site, for example, I know that he doesn't want to end religion so much as he wants to end Christianity.”

No, we want to end all religion. Religion is an escape for the weak minded who cannot deal with reality on its own terms. There is NO evidence that a god exists. NONE! Yet people like you continually tell people that they are going to heII if they don’t believe these fairytales. You don’t get it do you? You are delusional and threatening. You are a terrorist, plain and simple.

February 19, 2013 at 3:49 pm |

Kee

Just because God doesn't exist and operate in a way that you would like, doesn't mean He doesn't exists. Enough scientific and reasonably minded people believe in God and practice their religion peacefully, that I just can't buy your theory that ending religion will be good for human beings.
Human beings do horrible things with or without religion. You intolerance to other people is just as bad as the religion you claim to hate.

February 19, 2013 at 4:10 pm |

End Religion

I suppose it is obvious I would've named myself End Christianity if that was what I felt. I am most familiar with Christianity, and most people posting here are Christian. It makes sense that's what I'd rail against most often.

I should also be clear that I'm hoping religion ends as people realize its folly on their own, or with a little assistance from blogs. I do not advocate governments stamping out religion, but I also don't feel religion should have special protection.

February 19, 2013 at 4:11 pm |

sam stone

"Just because God doesn't exist...doesn't mean He doesn't exists."

Huh?

February 19, 2013 at 4:14 pm |

Kee

> I do not advocate governments stamping out religion, but I also don't feel religion should have special protection.

I'm with you on this. It is just not what a government should do.

February 19, 2013 at 4:14 pm |

End Religion

Kee, we're entering the Iridium Age of Reason(TM) and we want you to come along as the world breaks free from the quicksand of religion. you don't need to make up silly things about imaginary creatures. Love the people around you in the here and now, and work for the betterment of mankind. Any sense of morality derived from the bible is immoraltiy: the god in that book kills with wanton abandon. You are better than that book. You know right from wrong in your heart without that book of hate. Rise above it.

February 19, 2013 at 4:19 pm |

Kee

@Sam

"Just because God doesn't exist and operate in a way that you would like, doesn't mean He doesn't exist."

February 19, 2013 at 4:20 pm |

Kee

@End Religion

Human reason has failed me.

God has never failed me.

I'll stick with Him. Good luck.

February 19, 2013 at 4:22 pm |

Dont listen to 'end religion'

So if a voice starts talking blasphemy, don’t listen. God wants more for you. And always has.

February 19, 2013 at 4:27 pm |

Answer

"Human reason has failed me."

–How funny that line is stated. It never ceases to amaze me that s-c-u-m don't even recognize the correct structure of that sentence is in fact to apply it to oneself.

"I fail to apply logic and reason." << this is what you want to type out Kee. It's your fault. Not humanity.

February 19, 2013 at 4:27 pm |

Kee

No, _@Answer. I use and appreciate logic and reason just like you. But human logic and reason is limited. The universe seems to be eternal and infinite. That is tough for finite creatures to comprehend. No?

Just because something is difficult, or even cannot be comprehended (like the concept of infinite), doesn't mean anything.

February 19, 2013 at 4:35 pm |

End Religion

Kee, of course he hasn't failed you, just like the gambler always considers himself "ahead" of the house. He forgets most of the minor losses, counts huge losses as a part of the game, and relishes every win. In reality it comes to down to probability. Whatever game the gambler plays, if he plays long enough he bears out a known percentage of wins and losses. Since your god does not exist, your prayer/blessing wins/losses are the same as if you wish upon a 4-leaf clover.

Moreover, religion fails you since its core tenet is to stay stupid, don't question it, and simply do what others tell you. That's no way to learn about the world...

February 19, 2013 at 4:37 pm |

Kee

@hawaiiguest
"doesn't mean anything."

It does if there is a being that has perfect knowledge and understanding of this universe. And access to that being is available to me and you.

February 19, 2013 at 4:39 pm |

Kee

@end religion

Nope, the core tenet is to learn, question everything and simply do not do what the word tells me. There is a better way than your way to learn about the world. Thank God for that!

Do you even realize how condescendingly stupid what you said really was? You're espousing the standard "Believe first, then you can find the evidence".

February 19, 2013 at 4:50 pm |

Kee

@Hawaii

Oh, I didn't realize I was espousing that. Thanks for pointing out my defective belief. 🙂

February 19, 2013 at 4:52 pm |

meifumado

@Dont listen to 'end religion'

End Religion Says "we want you to come along as the world breaks free from the quicksand of religion. you don't need to make up silly things about imaginary creatures. Love the people around you in the here and now, and work for the betterment of mankind. Any sense of morality derived from the bible is immoraltiy: the god in that book kills with wanton abandon. You are better than that book. You know right from wrong in your heart without that book of hate. Rise above it."

Wise words you should listen to.

Now about your use of this word blasphemy, Who does this really offend? Why would your all powerful fairy tale guy in the sky not be above all insults? I would think all insults would be beneath him and his followers.

February 19, 2013 at 4:52 pm |

End Religion

Kee, the church only wants you to search so long as the answers come rooted in god. Our reality is described via science, and science has pushed a Creator into the tiniest crack of possibility, and fully routed your God of Israel.

It's OK if you don't want to participate in our reality, as long as you fully admit to yourself and realize what this means: no TV, no iPhone, no plane or car rides, no modern medicine or dentistry. You'll need to return to "vastness" of your bible's knowledge of the world, so stock up on leeches in case you get a headache.

February 19, 2013 at 5:24 pm |

Kee

Are you claiming you have privileged access or better understanding of science because you don't believe in God? I benefit from science and technology in just the same ways you do. My church doesn't hide or reject science that helps us explain God's creation. Not at all.

Who is this "the church" that you believe dicates what I believe? And who is this "Our" that you describe as having access to science's reality? It really sounds like you belong to some kind of religion to science.

"no TV, no iPhone, no plane or car rides, no modern medicine or dentistry" I bet I can name 100 Christians have contributed more to modern medicine than you have.

You are the one that keeps bringing up and talking about the Bible. Why?

February 19, 2013 at 5:40 pm |

Kee

* I bet I can name 100 Christians that have contributed more to modern medicine than you have.

*corrected

Also, feel free to list the contributions you have made to modern medicine.

February 19, 2013 at 5:43 pm |

TANK!!!!

There is no doubt that some of the many variations of god would exhibit greater intelligence than man if they were to exist, and if they were to be interested in communicating with us. I would certainly trust their word over that of any man.

The problem is, NO gods have ever been shown to have revealed anything to anybody. The thousands of texts and oral traditions that are claimed to be "the word of god" are all considered primitive versions of the "human reason" you religious kooks love to disparage.

February 19, 2013 at 6:09 pm |

Kee

"The problem is, NO gods have ever been shown to have revealed anything to anybody. "

kee – "My church doesn't hide or reject science that helps us explain God's creation. Not at all. "

What about science that doesn't happen to agree with creation as explained by your church? do they hide it?

kee – "I bet I can name 100 Christians that have contributed more to modern medicine than you have. "

So – I bet I can name 100 Christians who became murders. What's with the ridiculous point?

February 19, 2013 at 6:41 pm |

HotAirAce

Kee, where in that article does Gandhi say some god revealed anything to him? I note that he does say "I confess that I have no argument to convince through reason."

February 19, 2013 at 6:52 pm |

Kee

@ What about science that doesn't happen to agree with creation as explained by your church? do they hide it?

No. We believe science is a gift from God. We even have scientists that belong to our church. We support, pray for and contribute to scientific and technological advances. Not fight them.

"I bet I can name 100 Christians that have contributed more to modern medicine than you have..
What's with the ridiculous point?"

In response to this:

"It's OK if you don't want to participate in our reality, as long as you fully admit to yourself and realize what this means: no TV, no iPhone, no plane or car rides, no modern medicine or dentistry. You'll need to return to "vastness" of your bible's knowledge of the world, so stock up on leeches in case you get a headache."

I believe in God. And he thinks I have to reject science and technology? Whut?

There are Christians that have contributed more to modern medical advances than "end religion".

February 19, 2013 at 6:53 pm |

HotAirAce

Kee, why are you making this personal? If you have a good argument, you should be able to stay on the high road. And what have *you* done to improve the state of humanity?

February 19, 2013 at 6:58 pm |

End Religion

@Kee: "Are you claiming you have privileged access or better understanding of science because you don't believe in God?"

Mankind's reality is described via science. Any assertion God had a part in it would need some empirical evidence to be considered rational.

***
"I benefit from science and technology in just the same ways you do. My church doesn't hide or reject science that helps us explain God's creation. Not at all."

I will need empirical evidence that your God created anything at all, please. Otherwise you reject science, only paying it heed when it benefits you, and setting it behind your wall of delusion when you wake up frightened at night thinking about death (probably peeking over at the electric clock that science provided you).

***
"Who is this "the church" that you believe dicates what I believe?"

I shouldn't have assumed you were a Christian who believes in the bible when you referenced God. I apologize.

***
"And who is this "Our" that you describe as having access to science's reality? It really sounds like you belong to some kind of religion to science."

I understand this can be confusing, but in a nutshell:
– science is an evolving description of mankind's reality. It is updated as mankind learns.
– religion is a set of non-evidenciary beliefs about reality. Often these beliefs do not change and are otherwise known as delusion.

When I say "our" in this context I am referring to those who subscribe to reality as described via science and not magical sky fairies.

***
"I bet I can name 100 Christians have contributed more to modern medicine than you have."

I have no doubt you can. I'd bet we could work together to find 100 Christians who have murdered and r@ped more people than you. At the end neither of us will have proven anything about the other.

February 19, 2013 at 7:05 pm |

Interesting

"He who would in his own person test the fact of God's presence can do so by a living faith and since faith itself cannot be proved by extraneous evidence the safest course is to believe in the moral government of the world and therefore in the supremacy of the moral law, the law of truth and love. Exercise of faith will be the safest where there is a clear determination summarily to reject all that is contrary to truth and love. I confess that I have no argument to convince through reason. Faith transcends reason. All that I can advise is not to attempt the impossible."

February 19, 2013 at 7:05 pm |

Kee

@ace

"end religion" has claimed my ways are "silly" and "stupid".

And then claims ownership of scientific advances, like planes, cars and modern medicine.

Sorry, to burst his bubble, but "silly" and "stupid" Christians have contributed to these scientific advances he enjoys.

Faith is worthless for coming to anything except what you want to believe. Faith gives no path to reality.

February 19, 2013 at 7:09 pm |

End Religion

"We even have scientists that belong to our church. We support, pray for and contribute to scientific and technological advances."

I'm seeing this worded the same over and over. Don't know if Kee is a re-monikered regular here or whether churches are pushing this out as a response for their sheep. We most often see this as a non-answer when someone asks, "why doesn't god heal amputees?"

February 19, 2013 at 7:10 pm |

End Religion

Kee, I think you're finally coming around.... "Christians have contributed to these scientific advances he enjoys."
Yes, people, not gods. Thanks to any and all people who came up with these advances, no gods required.

February 19, 2013 at 7:14 pm |

HotAirAce

Kee, by any objective measure, religious beliefs are silly and stupid, given that there is no evidence for any god or the truth of The Babble. But why did you ask ER what he has done for medicine? Why take it to a personal level? Why didn't you answer my question about your contributions?

This is why it is useless to go with "Science and religion are incompatible", because most people won't know how to apply this properly. The scientific method, inquiry, and discovery is indeed incompatible with religion because religion does not want questioning. Religion is about obedience and a rejection of anything contradicting the accepted doctrine. Humans, unfortunately in this case, are very good at compartmentalizing thoughts and ideas. Thestic scientists (most of them anyway) do good science in spite of their religion, but then there are those moronic dipshits like Michael Behe who doesn't seem to know a beaker from their ass.

The real point is that scientists can be scientists in spite of their religion, and in general religions have held some aspects and branches of science back when in power.

February 19, 2013 at 7:15 pm |

Interesting

"Faith is worthless for coming to anything except what you want to believe. Faith gives no path to reality."

And yet the very concept of Hell came about in the NT with Jesus. The whole book centers around "believe or else", "Obey or else". In the book of Job god tells Job not to question anything that happens. Just accept that he's god and he does whatever he damn well pleases. Certain verses in the NT might contradict my statement, but the bible as a whole agrees with my statement.

February 19, 2013 at 7:38 pm |

End Religion

Kee said: "Science is the study of God's creation."

If you had any appreciation for science you'd present your empirical evidence for God.

February 19, 2013 at 7:40 pm |

GodFreeNow

@Kee, "Science is the study of God's creation."

Magic bunny alert! When I hear statements like this, I'm reminded of a little exercise that is useful to help those who might be clouded by religion. Replace "god" with "magic bunny." Since both have an equal amount of verifiable evidence to support their existence, the 2 are interchangeable.

Therefore:

"Science is the study of the Magic Bunny's creation." Sound absurd? Yes... yes it does. Welcome to atheism.

February 19, 2013 at 7:49 pm |

Just_free_in_Jesus

I replace the word 'atheist' with 'magic bunny'. Welcome to magic bunnyism. Life just happened, there was not creator. Sound absurd? Yes, yes it does.

February 19, 2013 at 8:00 pm |

clarity

What's absurd is that once it appeared that the gospel stories were just embellished copies of earlier pagan stories, several early Christian apologists (Justin Martyr for instance) could only come up with the excuse that the devil was the one who plagiarized, not the gospel writers. How did he do it? They called it diabolical mimicry; plagiarism in anticipation; they said he disseminated the fake stories in advance of the real ones to fool everyone. yeah right.

February 19, 2013 at 8:25 pm |

Kee

@clarity
There are some similarities with other stories. Some of the stories happened in places where Christians had absolutely no access to or knowledge of the other stories. Pretty amazing, hu?

February 19, 2013 at 8:39 pm |

Kee

@Hawaii
The whole book centers around "believe or else", "Obey or else".

Oh no, where do Christians get the idea that we have a God full of grace and forgiveness? I'm sure you know better.

Jesus, dying on the cross says "Don't forgive them if they don't believe or obey. They know what they are doing."

February 19, 2013 at 8:45 pm |

End Religion

Kee said: "There are some similarities with other stories. Some of the stories happened in places where Christians had absolutely no access to or knowledge of the other stories. Pretty amazing, hu?"

Nice cherry pick. How about you try doing something no other religous zealot on this site has, and actually address an entire post or point? Don't be like all the rest of the dishonest tools.

February 19, 2013 at 8:48 pm |

HotAirAce

There's no reason to believe Kee is other than yet another hypocritical delusional believer. She won't even answer a simple question about her contributions, a question she used to put down ER.

February 19, 2013 at 9:07 pm |

GodFreeNow

@Just_free_in_Jesus,

As as you are beholden to another, you can never truly be free—in Jesus or otherwise.

February 19, 2013 at 11:33 pm |

Kee

@won't even answer a simple question about her contributions, a question she used to put down ER.

I wasn't the one claiming exclusive access to"science while "stupid" and "silly" people in God had to reject science.

And I pointed out that "stupid" and "silly" people have actually contributed more to science than ER.

February 20, 2013 at 11:09 am |

GodFreeNow

CNN must change its name to PNN – Pope News Network

February 19, 2013 at 3:35 pm |

Jesus

Only in a perfect world

February 19, 2013 at 2:47 pm |

meifumado

Perfection is a lie.

February 19, 2013 at 3:22 pm |

fred

sam stone
"I need neither his forgiveness nor his mercy"

=>That sums up the heart of the lost who cannot see abyss that is behind such pride.

February 19, 2013 at 1:43 pm |

sam stone

"That sums up the heart of the lost who cannot see abyss that is behind such pride."

That sums up the arrogance of those who purport to speak for "god"

Back on your knees, b1tch

February 19, 2013 at 1:48 pm |

Answer

@fred

Oh the word "lost".. so pathetic.

You wanna word games today fred? Shall we continue from last day on your remarks of "glory" "wondrous" "awe" and whatever word imagery you would like to spin?

February 19, 2013 at 1:51 pm |

fred

Answer
Not until you summarize you position on the hereafter. Please tell me exactly what you will be doing. Oh, and forget the nothingness argument because you cannot possibly know what that is unless you plan to convert to a religion on your dying days that provides Nirvana afterlife services for atheists.

February 19, 2013 at 1:58 pm |

fred

sam stone
The reason you cannot grasp free will is because you do not understand the eternal nature of God relative to your fixed sequential time line.
Which by the way has an end point where every knee shall bow. You must admit my knees will be in much better shape when the truth arrives.

6) words: awe, beauty, bountiful, pleasing, splendid, glory
–Fit in the words: change, less, more
–Realize the word: awe with less becomes dull, stale.
–Realize the word: beauty with change, less gives way to ugly, unsightful.
–Realize the word glory with more, still just glory.
–Realize the word NEGATIVES.

The christian imagery exposed. The words change, do, activity, more or less can't fit into their vocabulary with their wish for perfection and beauty and glory. Nor can they sustain the words that lead to negativity.

February 19, 2013 at 2:05 pm |

meifumado

The onus of proof is with the believer.
That said, consider religion in it's thousands of forms over thousands of years has never had any evidence of a supernatural being actually existing.
Therefore one can conclude that religion is in all forms nothing more than a lie.

February 19, 2013 at 2:07 pm |

sam stone

"The reason you cannot grasp free will is because you do not understand the eternal nature of God relative to your fixed sequential time line."

Lots of words, saying nothing.

"Which by the way has an end point where every knee shall bow."

If you say so.

"You must admit my knees will be in much better shape when the truth arrives."

The truth? You pompous jerkov.

I suspect that you spend a lot more time on your knees...taking stuff deep into your throat

February 19, 2013 at 2:11 pm |

Answer

@fred

Speakth the words ... like in this sentence that you may love "this world will pass away but my Word will never pass away".

Go on and speak: "YOU CAN SPEAK your salvation or your future".

–Real life: say this "basking, basking, basking, basking" - to a 1000 times, nay a million times – you get a sore throat.

Meifumado
There are claims and drawings throughout the history of man that express the reality of the supernatural. You just want someone to dig up unicorn bones or stretch out the loc Ness monster on a table for you. That would simply make the supernatural very natural.
In short you want God reduced to the level of man which is what the serpent wanted in the Garden long ago.

February 19, 2013 at 2:33 pm |

Answer

fred's rant equates to "I want my god."

February 19, 2013 at 2:35 pm |

Eric G

@Fred: Please describe, in detail, what your existence was like before you were born. After you die, you will have virtually the same experience.

February 19, 2013 at 2:39 pm |

meifumado

Not at all Fred, And what you said is just another excuse.
If the religious ever had any real proof of their gods they would rub it in our faces every chance they could.
You seem to suffer from what is known as wishful thinking, It's not to late to seek help.

February 19, 2013 at 2:41 pm |

fred

answer
now your turn, tell me about basking in nothingness. I know you love Bible verses so here is what God sees when looking at your soul: Genesis 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Notice answer that in the beginning was the Word. God spoke creation into existence and said let there be light and there was light. How about you let those words enter that formless, empty darkness that is over the surface of the deep (translation your soul is dead and can be brought to life by the word of God).
Note that the Spirit of God is hovering over your darkness. Translation from the Hebrew was brooding over. In short God wants to give you life by introducing the word and giving you the gift of life.

February 19, 2013 at 2:47 pm |

Answer

@fred

You can go on with the babble. It's your job. You've got it shoved up your behind. I'm gonna ask once again how far up is it today?

February 19, 2013 at 2:50 pm |

Answer

@fred

Your imagery is useless. All your christian imagery are dispelled when even one question is asked in return.

You want to fail that much more today? Tell me about the darkness that you want me to accept? Is it thick or thin, can I wash it like laundry? Let me mock it, surely it is what I am doing. Do go on and fail with your imagery. Again and again.

February 19, 2013 at 2:53 pm |

fred

Eric G
I think you are correct but cannot prove it. Without the existence of an eternal record keeper or eternal perspective who can know what exists outside of our time line.
I assume you are saying you don't know what existed before birth. In fact you have attempted to understand but closed off the exploration of that unknown.

February 19, 2013 at 2:54 pm |

Eric G

@Fred: Actually, I do know what happened before my birth. I also know that because I did not exist, it is not possible for me to have any perception of it. After death, I will not exist, and thus will have no preception of existence.

I never claimed to have knowledge of my existence before or after my life. For anyone to claim to have that knowledge is dishonest. The believers who claim to KNOW that they will go to heaven are dishonest.

February 19, 2013 at 3:01 pm |

fred

Answer
Luke 23:39-43. There were two criminals on either side of Christ at the cross. One mocked and insulted Christ while the other said “do you not fear God”. This is the difference between a light that leads to life and the view from a soul void of light.
Religious people can be just as bad since they too walked by Christ on the cross spitting and mocking demanding God show himself. I think you know the difference between the light and the darkness why do ask for more examples?
Life is really not that complicated. You can choose to see the creator as reflected in creation or choose to see the absence of creation. My concern is that a rational person would choose a dark void over the flow of living waters.

February 19, 2013 at 3:06 pm |

Wait...

"Life is really not that complicated. You can choose to see the creator as reflected in creation or choose to see the absence of creation. My concern is that a rational person would choose a dark void over the flow of living waters."

There is not proof that either exists.

February 19, 2013 at 3:09 pm |

Tom, Tom, the Other One

Personally, I haven't chosen a dark void, fred any more than you've chosen eternal life. In the end there is nil. You won't know anything like darkness, or light. You won't know anything at all. No you.

February 19, 2013 at 3:11 pm |

meifumado

"There are claims and drawings throughout the history of man that express the reality of the supernatural"

Reality of the supernatural?
Your joking right?

Again, you suffer from wishful thinking as did our stone age friends who invented gods.

February 19, 2013 at 3:20 pm |

fred

Eric G
I think dishonest is not the right choice of words. Having had a personal experience with God changed my perception of reality. I am not dishonest as I actually believe to the point where I know certain things exist that did not exist before my encounter. You cannot know love from a science book and some people are incapable of love. Once you have experienced love and loss of a loved one the reality of that life experience has changed. Perspective has been altered and the new perspective is not dishonest.
When God says “I knew you before I knit your bones together in the womb” those words take on a new meaning. When the flood story comes alive as an expression of Gods plan instead of a foolish tale the Bible takes on new meaning. When the promises of the Bible unfold as true thousands of years after being written the very words take on a divine weight. There is no reason to think what is written about existence outside of our time line is not true. This is not dishonest just faith built upon evidence presented.

February 19, 2013 at 3:21 pm |

Answer

It's nice to see that fred gives himself his babble quotes to stabilize his delusions. Isn't it fred?

Oh you want to add more words into your imagery right? Let's see there's darkness, and look now at "dark void" and "water".
So you're familiar with those words then...

In your heaven is there darkness (night time)? Is there flowing water to which you may wash your hands/self?
In this perfection state of heaven will you need to wash your hands? Or drink that water? Without the darkness of the night .. what is the source of light? Is it sunlight?

With sunlight .. does it feel warm? It must be a perfect warmth. No coldness right?

The words keep on rolling along to shatter the imagery of the christian retard. So sweet.

February 19, 2013 at 3:21 pm |

fred

Wait
There is proof of living waters. Everyone that asks Christ into their lives receives the Holy Spirit. It is immediate and life transforming.

February 19, 2013 at 3:23 pm |

Answer

Yah you gotta give those losers your money in advance too.

February 19, 2013 at 3:25 pm |

Smithsonian

"This is not dishonest just faith built upon evidence presented."

The Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details.

It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

February 19, 2013 at 3:26 pm |

Wait....

"There is proof of living waters. Everyone that asks Christ into their lives receives the Holy Spirit. It is immediate and life transforming."

No, it's not, especially since there are so many former Christians and ministers posting here showing it's not true. Science has shown it's just a chemical reaction in your brain, nothing more.

February 19, 2013 at 3:28 pm |

Eric G

@Fred: "I am not dishonest as I actually believe to the point where I know certain things exist that did not exist before my encounter."

I am sorry that you had personal loss, but as you state, your loss has changed your perspective, not reality. For you to claim knowledge of fact based on a change in your own personal perspective is intellectually dishonest.

February 19, 2013 at 3:30 pm |

fred

Tom, Tom, the Other One
“Personally, I haven't chosen a dark void, fred any more than you've chosen eternal life.”
=>actually, if I do not pray and meditate on God that assurance of eternal life fades. In that regard there is choice and action from my side.
It is the red pill and you must swallow it to see where it goes. Academic knowledge of the God is not same as swallowing the pill. Like reading all about downhill racing but never sitting on a bike. You don’t really experience the truth.

“In the end there is nil. You won't know anything like darkness, or light. You won't know anything at all”
=>with or without God that is a possibility. Before my personal experience I did not give the before and after much thought so I did not know. How can you know “nil” occupies space and time outside of our known world?

February 19, 2013 at 3:36 pm |

meifumado

"This is not dishonest just faith built upon evidence presented"

What evidence?
Do you know the meaning of the word faith?
Faith has nothing to do with actual evidence, If you had the evidence you would not need to have "faith" in it.

Your statement is dishonest.

February 19, 2013 at 3:37 pm |

Madtown

Everyone that asks Christ into their lives receives the Holy Spirit. It is immediate and life transforming.
---------
It's not life-transforming for those humans who've never heard of Christ. For some human beings, God has placed them into a sector of this world where they'll never hear of christianity. Why would God deprive sub-sets of his creation the chance at this redemptive message? It can only mean that the message is human-created. If it was God-created, everyone would have equal access to it. Unless you think you're special relative to other humans on the planet.

February 19, 2013 at 3:39 pm |

Answer

"How can you know “nil” occupies space and time outside of our known world?"

–And you fred? What was it last day your referred to?
Let me quote you..

===quote===
What we know it that all evil (anything not of God) is separated and nonexistent.
===end===

February 19, 2013 at 3:40 pm |

Wait....

"How can you know “nil” occupies space and time outside of our known world?"

The same question applies to your god. You keep making crap up about your God without any proof, just your imagination. This is all about what your brain is capable of doing and creating but it is not proof of a God. They have shown the chemical stimulation of the brain when people think about a God, but that is all it is a chemical reaction. You have no proof of eternal life or the black void or hell but we all know your imagination will come up for excuses as to why you have no proof. Wait for it.....

February 19, 2013 at 3:41 pm |

Tom, Tom, the Other One

fred, nil doesn't occupy anything. Nil is having no existence as in "no you".

February 19, 2013 at 3:45 pm |

fred

Wait....
“there are so many former Christians and ministers posting here showing it's not true.”
=>without a personal experience with God, without the Holy Spirit living within and in the absence of a continuous intimate relationship with God the world will draw off those that can no longer the path. Jesus said the path is narrow and few will find it while the road of the world is broad and many are on it.
“Science has shown it's just a chemical reaction in your brain, nothing more.”
=>no doubt this is true but it does not address why natural selection would favor the worship of God. Since Neanderthal man has looked up in worship. Only a few cults look down into darkness, hate and lust of evil for their source of hope. A chemical reaction that directs one towards an external hope that cannot be seen or contain matter that can be measured goes against natural selection. What value is there in that which can only be seen by faith

February 19, 2013 at 3:47 pm |

Answer

“there are so many former Christians and ministers posting here showing it's not true.”
=>without a personal experience with God, without the Holy Spirit living within

---–LOL. "They were never true christians."

You're a laugh fred as usual.

February 19, 2013 at 3:51 pm |

fred

Eric G
“For you to claim knowledge of fact based on a change in your own personal perspective is intellectually dishonest.”
=>In the beginning was the Word….etc. from John, then we see that in Genesis God spoke the creation into being.
My perspective is that God has revealed something to the world. When you take Gods word as fact and act upon it as if it exists there is a supernatural event in progress. This does not happen when you pretend or try and make it happen with reservation. In short you must know that God exists and that God does fulfill every one of His promises.

If I said I did not know it then I would be dishonest.

February 19, 2013 at 3:58 pm |

fred

Meifumado
No, when you step out in faith the evidence becomes overwhelming. That is different than faith based on evidence which is what atheists base their belief in philosophical naturalism upon.

February 19, 2013 at 4:02 pm |

Answer

"When you take Gods word as fact"

–Facts without evidence. Equals big time Fail.

February 19, 2013 at 4:03 pm |

Robert Brown

You guys are making a profession out of denial. Now, I hope some of you have honestly and earnestly sought God for yourself and have not been successful, because if you have not and you post stuff like that, you just have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

You will know when God is standing at the door of your heart knocking, all you have to do is open the door. You think he will knock if you have a big sign up saying, “God doesn’t exist, so don’t knock?”

February 19, 2013 at 4:16 pm |

Eric G

@Fred: If you claim fact without verifiable evidence, you are dishonest. Your faith is obviously not a path to truth.

February 19, 2013 at 4:17 pm |

fred

Madtown
“God has placed them into a sector of this world where they'll never hear of christianity. Why would God deprive sub-sets of his creation the chance at this redemptive message?”
=>We only observe reality from a sequential time line that is all we know and can relate to. God exists in the past, present and future at same moment. From Gods perspective the chosen ones are already eternal with God in the new heaven and earth we are just reading about.
God in perfect goodness has already brought about the best good for the greatest number of people possible. In that perspective we can address those who never hear of Christianity or any other subset at a moment in time that is unique to us not a time relative to eternity. In a time unique to us we can only speculate about the why and why not. Some speculation is that it is better for those who would reject God never to have heard about God. In that regard there is not much accountability and thus little if no eternal consequence for that person. On the other hand to whom much is given much is expected.

February 19, 2013 at 4:20 pm |

Answer

@Robert Brown

How funny that you're denying all the other gods.

February 19, 2013 at 4:24 pm |

meifumado

Evidence comes from facts not faith, faith is nothing but wishful thinking, now it may make you feel safe from the boogie man, but its still delusional none the less.

How pathetic that fred cannot think of anything else to say except "I'm right you're wrong because I say so, but you're the arrogant one for not accepting my assertions". Really, fred is a wonderful example of the damage to the mind that religion can do.

February 19, 2013 at 4:28 pm |

Wait...

"without a personal experience with God, without the Holy Spirit living within and in the absence of a continuous intimate relationship with God the world will draw off those that can no longer the path. Jesus said the path is narrow and few will find it while the road of the world is broad and many are on it."

Many of the people who are posting and are former Christians where in your religion for 10 years or more. It's only further proof that there is no holy spirit working and no God answering.

"no doubt this is true but it does not address why natural selection would favor the worship of God. Since Neanderthal man has looked up in worship. Only a few cults look down into darkness, hate and lust of evil for their source of hope. A chemical reaction that directs one towards an external hope that cannot be seen or contain matter that can be measured goes against natural selection. What value is there in that which can only be seen by faith"

It's not eternal hope, it's to bring about good in man to make us better with each generation. Which we have done and which science has also shown comes from our DNA of hundreds of thousands of years. We evolved into wanting to be better. The proof is also in the animal kingdom, it's been shown through observation over centuries that many animals will try to do good with their families and groups.

"What value is there in that which can only be seen by faith"

Faith = chemical reaction in your brain, everyone can get the same feeling and emotions simply by meditating. Further proof it has nothing to do with a God.

February 19, 2013 at 4:34 pm |

Wait...

"We only observe reality from a sequential time line that is all we know and can relate to. God exists in the past, present and future at same moment. From Gods perspective the chosen ones are already eternal with God in the new heaven and earth we are just reading about."

More of fred's imagination that contains no truth.

February 19, 2013 at 4:35 pm |

Doobs

You will know when God is standing at the door of your heart knocking, all you have to do is open the door. You think he will knock if you have a big sign up saying, “God doesn’t exist, so don’t knock?”

Zeus knocked on my door a few weeks ago. I kicked his ass right to the curb.

February 19, 2013 at 4:35 pm |

clarity

fred: "=>We only observe reality from a sequential time line that is all we know and can relate to."

according to one of your fellow believers fred, it's not always sequential. sometimes you have to utilize locking and unlocking triangles.

February 19, 2013 at 4:36 pm |

fred

Eric G
“If you claim fact without verifiable evidence, you are dishonest. Your faith is obviously not a path to truth.”
I suspect we could go through one by one and evaluate each representation I make as fact or belief. Either way it would not be dishonest. If I said there was no God and God did not answer prayer that would be dishonest because I know there is God and God answered prayer.
You believe there is no God thus God does not answer prayer yet you do not know that and cannot know that without being dishonest.
Correct me if I am wrong but are you claiming there is no God?

February 19, 2013 at 4:37 pm |

Wait...

" If I said there was no God and God did not answer prayer that would be dishonest because I know there is God and God answered prayer."

People have coincidences all the time that might correspond with something they wanted or discussed, it's not proof there is a god. You are only equating that coincidence to your god to try and justify the delusion you've created, doesn't mean it's truth or fact. Nostradamus is another great example of that we can take his predictions and apply then to all types of incidences in history but it doesn't mean those predictions are actually true for what we are applying them too.

February 19, 2013 at 4:47 pm |

Answer

"Correct me if I am wrong but are you claiming there is no God?"

–The onus is always with the one who makes the positive claim.

"Do you not have a sandwich in your mouth?"

or

"Do you have a sandwich in your mouth?"

-fred is going for the word salad once again.

February 19, 2013 at 4:47 pm |

HotAirAce

There is no verifiable, objective, independent, factual evidence for any god – none. Given the number of years (2,000+) that believers have been claiming that their god(s) exist and that zero evidence has been produced, their claims should be considered unproven at best, if not complete bullsh!t, as they wold have been in any other subject domain. No evidence after such a deep and lengthy search strongly suggests that the probability of there being any god is virtually zero – so low that claiming there are no gods is not much of. an overstatement.

February 19, 2013 at 4:48 pm |

Madtown

those who would reject God never to have heard about God
------
Ah, but you are equating "God" with "christianity", meaning(to you) there's no other way to experience God but through christianity. I think God and religion, any religion, are completely independent. Religion is completely man-made. You can believe in God without attachment to any particular religion. Again, if religion were constructed by God, and there was only "1 right religion", there'd be only 1 religion. Place yourself in any other culture, and you'd have a different notion about what God is, but you'd still be firmly convinced you were correct in your beliefs. People from other cultures seek a spiritual connection with God, and believe they find it. But, they have different conclusions than you do. If they were wrong, how would they ever know it? Who are you to say they're wrong?

February 19, 2013 at 4:49 pm |

fred

Wait
Biologic evolution is factual within limits but cannot be extrapolated into a world view of the purpose of existence or the origin of life. You simply expose the false foundation of philosophical naturalism which is necessary for atheists to balance the unknown with the self-evident nature of their longing to worship. Just like Neanderthal you want to worship so you turn the drive inwards. In the days of old it was called an Idol a manmade god created by man so that man was the creator.
Back to the Garden of Eden we go and see how well you have learned from the serpent.

Of course fred's going for the word salad. It's the only way someone as blindingly dishonest as he is can avoid actually giving any kind of evidence for any stupid assertion he makes. He's trying to take his cue from Chad, the other dishonest asshat on here, on how to be a dishonest, self-deluded zealot.

February 19, 2013 at 4:52 pm |

Answer

"Back to the Garden of Eden we go and see how well you have learned from the serpent."

-Reference that talking snake. Oh ya that will make the fairy tale true.

February 19, 2013 at 4:53 pm |

Answer

@hawaiiguest

I know.

I love seeing fred's posted imagery and then shattering them for him. I love to see his babble rant and letting him carry on so he can protect his delusions. It's fun to watch him just doing circles everytime.😛

February 19, 2013 at 4:56 pm |

Wait...

"Biologic evolution is factual within limits but cannot be extrapolated into a world view of the purpose of existence or the origin of life."

We aren't talking about the origin of life, we are talking about the origin of your God, which is nothing more than your imagination addicted to one particular chemical reaction in your brain. You will apply all kinds of things in your surroundings using your imagination to justify your god, just like the Neanderthals did when they couldn't explain something, it's not proof of a god. It's proof you have an over active imagination and an addiction to the chemical being released in your brain.

February 19, 2013 at 4:57 pm |

clarity

fred, sorry, but that last post of yours was completely idiotic. You keep blabbing away, but as I've seen before, you having nothing to back up these idiotic notions – like "false foundation of philosophical naturalism" or "Biologic evolution is factual within limits but cannot be extrapolated into a world view of the purpose of existence or the origin of life. " You need to start proving some of these wild-ass notions. And I know you have your belief, but you're going to sling bullshit out and only back it up with a talking serpent from folklore? Get real, fred.

February 19, 2013 at 4:59 pm |

meifumado

Fred writes "Biologic evolution is factual within limits but cannot be extrapolated into a world view of the purpose of existence or the origin of life. You simply expose the false foundation of philosophical naturalism which is necessary for atheists to balance the unknown with the self-evident nature of their longing to worship. Just like Neanderthal you want to worship so you turn the drive inwards. In the days of old it was called an Idol a manmade god created by man so that man was the creator.
Back to the Garden of Eden we go and see how well you have learned from the serpent."

You should really do stand up comedy Fred, this is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen on this site.
And please seek help, I fear you are quite insane.

February 19, 2013 at 5:06 pm |

fred

Madtown
There can be only one God (assuming the attributes of the God of Abraham which includes the unity of Christ and the Holy Spirit)
God is. The ever present God could well be the one you allude to as being worshiped by others. This I cannot know you are correct. I cannot even know if other Christians are true believers as even Hitler claimed to be Christian. The view Moses had of God was very different from the view John the Apostle had of God as our experience with God is personal and as individual as we are.
This does not change God or the attributes of God who is.
Allah is very different from God if we go by the Quran and the opposite of God if we go with the extremists take. The extent to which we are moving towards the same eternal rest I cannot know.
Perhaps we are saying the same thing?

February 19, 2013 at 5:07 pm |

HotAirAce

fred, you wrote "There can be only one God. . ." Prove it, or admit that you are delusional, a liar or both. I'm going with both.

February 19, 2013 at 5:13 pm |

fred

Wait
"You will apply all kinds of things in your surroundings using your imagination to justify your god, just like the Neanderthals did when they couldn't explain something, it's not proof of a god. It's proof you have an over active imagination and an addiction to the chemical being released in your brain."
=>In that case you can say this is our brain on drugs since you also justify your atheistic position when you cannot explain something. That great unknown. Hawkings search to prove no god needed has painted him into a corner where spontaneous creation is needed or M theory must be proven.

February 19, 2013 at 5:13 pm |

Wait...

"In that case you can say this is our brain on drugs since you also justify your atheistic position when you cannot explain something. That great unknown. Hawkings search to prove no god needed has painted him into a corner where spontaneous creation is needed or M theory must be proven."

I see the other posters are correct that you are good with the word game but not really good with actual facts. The only one being painted into the corner is you fred. All you've done is used your imaginations with a lot of words in your posts with no real proof of your God. We have proof that it's in your brain, that your brain releases a chemical that people get addicted too and with their imaginations contribute their coincidences as proof their imagination about their god is real. That doesn't make it truth or fact.

February 19, 2013 at 5:20 pm |

clarity

I'm glad you're starting to use the word unknown more again fred. You just need to think about that word more, and don't try to be superstitious when you are thinking about it. Let it be what it is – unknown.

February 19, 2013 at 5:23 pm |

Madtown

Allah is very different from God if we go by the Quran and the opposite of God if we go with the extremists take.
------
This represents the problem with organized religions, how they tend to divide us. Perhaps humans are all worshiping the same God, perhaps there's one true God, we don't know for sure and that's the point. Religions are still human creations, and when they individually assert that they and only they have the correct answers to these questions, that's when we run into problems.

February 19, 2013 at 5:25 pm |

fred

Clarity
Ok, you are correct I should back up the error in naturalism when it jumps into a world view of purpose for existence. If it would make a difference I could post the evidence again. Problem is that it always ends the same. I believe no god needed because evolution explains everything according to the atheist. Well, I believe God is needed and the Bible explains why.

Our brains have already justified our existence one way or the other in order to retain sanity and allow normal behavior. The only way through that defense is by personal experience with an alternate reality the mind can accept. Logic and reason will not get past the denial filter.

The only support for my belief that God spoke the creation into existence is circular reasoning which continues with John stating that in the beginning was the Word. The soul and purpose of existence is a different venue from scientific exploration and explanation of baryonic matter. These are so different that one cannot be used to explain the other and my arguments fail. Baryonic matter is part of the created known world that is measurable and falsifiable by scientific method. God, soul and purpose for existence are not of this matter. Evidence for both exists but the rules of evidence do not apply equally.

February 19, 2013 at 5:39 pm |

HotAirAce

Again fred displays his inability to read and learn, or his ability to lie. . .

Atheists do not say evolution explains everything. Evolution explains many things, and other theories explain many other things, usually in concert with evolution. For many other things, the answer is "we don't know," a much more mature answer than leaping to "some god did it" especially given that there is no evidence for any god.

HotAirAce
I agree evolution does not answer many things and that by itself cannot be the foundation for a world view. If the Bible as a whole does not represent the Divine Word of God then my world view must change. I would then find the same basic unknowns you run up against.

February 19, 2013 at 6:06 pm |

HotAirAce

So fred, being a completely rationale and logical person, when will you be announcing your exit from the christian death cult?

February 19, 2013 at 6:12 pm |

HotAirAce

And yes, rationale should be rational. . .

February 19, 2013 at 6:15 pm |

Wait...

" If the Bible as a whole does not represent the Divine Word of God"

There is not proof that it is, just like all other other religions speaking about their God. You can't use the bible to justify the bible and that's why this discussion goes round and round.

February 19, 2013 at 6:16 pm |

clarity

fred [ Ok, you are correct I should back up the error in naturalism when it jumps into a world view of purpose for existence. If it would make a difference I could post the evidence again. Problem is that it always ends the same. ]

=> I would suspect it ends up the same because your evidence is not evidence at all.

fred: [ Our brains have already justified our existence one way or the other in order to retain sanity and allow normal behavior. The only way through that defense is by personal experience with an alternate reality the mind can accept. Logic and reason will not get past the denial filter. ]

=> This may be how you understand your own dependencies for your god, but otherwise this is just new unfounded BS that I doubt very seriously you could back up with anything.

fred [ The only support for my belief that God spoke the creation into existence is circular reasoning which continues with John stating that in the beginning was the Word. The soul and purpose of existence is a different venue from scientific exploration and explanation of baryonic matter. These are so different that one cannot be used to explain the other and my arguments fail. Baryonic matter is part of the created known world that is measurable and falsifiable by scientific method. God, soul and purpose for existence are not of this matter. Evidence for both exists but the rules of evidence do not apply equally. ]

=> Well I'm glad you realize that you rely on circular reasoning. A portion of the things you mention that are so different (that it causes your argument to fail) are things that mankind made up. Not to say that their existence is impossible (soul/purpose), but you are relying on the opinion of scared, uneducated ancient men's notion of these concepts that are yet unknown today and very well may not exist.

February 19, 2013 at 6:19 pm |

clarity

fred: "I agree evolution does not answer many things and that by itself cannot be the foundation for a world view."

Sure it can, fred. And that view may grown and improve with time, just as our knowledge does of all that is around us. What you have to learn to be more comfortable with is the unknown and be honest about the unknown and try not to heap superstition onto unknown things just because you're not comfortable with not having an answer right now.

February 19, 2013 at 6:23 pm |

sam stone

"I hope some of you have honestly and earnestly sought God for yourself and have not been successful, because if you have not and you post stuff like that, you just have absolutely no idea what you are talking about."

Are you familiar with the concept of confirmation bias?

February 20, 2013 at 4:38 am |

Bootyfunk

gosh, which cardinal will be the new head child molester? the catholic church has had every opportunity to step up and be human, but they choose to protect the molester over the child. if the church was actually a force for good, they would tell the police everything they know and actively HELP the police arrest these monsters in their ranks instead of protecting them. how can anyone consider the church to be a force for good when they protect the worst kind of evil?

February 19, 2013 at 1:02 pm |

Mass Debater

It's hard to tell, they all seem such perfect candidates to be the new Head Moletser. Whichever one they pick will just adopt an old pope name, hopefully he will go with Pope Chester IX.

I don't believe the Bible tells us the age of the Earth. Dinosaurs just add to the wonder and mystery of God's creation. It doesn't take away anything for me about God being the creator, redeemer and sanctifier.

February 19, 2013 at 11:27 am |

Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

Kee, your idol Topher believes that the earth was created in six days, literally. He thinks it happened less than 10,000 years ago and that dinosaurs and men coexisted. You still think he's sane?

February 19, 2013 at 11:31 am |

fyi

Ah, AdvBerg thinks that he's got fresh meat in @ Kee!

February 19, 2013 at 11:39 am |

Kee

_@Tom
Yea, it's just not what I believe.

_@avdberg
Can you send me a free copy of your book? Or do I have to pay you money for it?

February 19, 2013 at 11:43 am |

fyi

Kee,

What's a little money? If you don't give Andy Vandenberg and his wife's website some clicks and buy his book(s) you will never get to heaven!

February 19, 2013 at 11:54 am |

Kee

@FYI

He has great information that will save our lives... for $19.99 plus shipping and handling.

February 19, 2013 at 11:56 am |

Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

Berg, you're looking for dates, then. Good luck.

February 19, 2013 at 12:02 pm |

meifumado

@ Kee
"Dinosaurs just add to the wonder and mystery of God's creation"

This is delusional thinking.
There is this thing called science I suggest you check it out.

take up the bible. go to the genealogies and ages listed throughout. you can go backwards from jesus to adam and eve. the ages of people are listed and when they had their children. you can trace backwards from jesus. you get about 6k-10k years. yes, the bible says the world is no more than 10k years old. the bible says man was made before animals - we know that's false. the bible says the earth is flat. the bible says there was light in our galaxy before there was a sun. the bible supports slavery throughout - even gives rules for how to sell your own daughter into slavery and instructions for beating your slaves.

the bible is so blatantly wrong is so many areas it's hard to believe anyone follows it. the book was written by ignorant sheep herders.

February 19, 2013 at 12:56 pm |

Kee

@ meifumado – There is this thing called science I suggest you check it out.

I'm very familiar with science. But thanks for your tip. You are a very helpful person.

@ ad

Thanks. But you do seem kind of spammy with your posts.

February 19, 2013 at 12:57 pm |

Richard Cranium

Andy Van de Berg
I checked out your site. You are clearly delusional. The brainwashing is complete on this one. Most of the assertions you have are completely unfunded, you make rediculous assumptions, and then jump to wild conclusions based on nothing but your own opinions.

Thanks for the laughs, I found it hilarious.

February 19, 2013 at 12:59 pm |

Answer

@Bootyfunk

Ya I love that genealogy line in that crap book. You have incest galore in that book and never mind the flood that was supposed to wipe them all out leaving only Noah's family to restart the population. So hilarious.

February 19, 2013 at 1:03 pm |

Kee

@bootyfunk

I don't think the author of Genesis was trying to tell us the age of the Earth. Or even give us a complete list of the geneology. A lot of people believe that generations were omitted that didn't relate to the story being told.

Where does the Bible say the world is no more than 10,000 years old? It doesn't. It's a theory that some subscribe to by counting down from some geneaologies, but not everyone believes that is what we are to do.

We can use science to get a better understanding of God's creation. It really is helpful for some of us Christians.

The Bible depicts human beings exactly as we are. People owned slaves back then. And people own slaves today. In fact there are more slave owners today, then there were in biblical times. It seems to be the kind of people we are. Just because something is written about in the Bible, does not mean that God approves of it.

We benefit from slave labor in America. We might as well still own slaves. What can we do about that?

February 19, 2013 at 1:15 pm |

Bootyfunk

funniest part is, according to the noah/flood story, not only are all humans products of incest as noah's family had to s.ex it up with each other in order to repopulate the world, but think of the animals... they're victims of incest too. two of every animal means parents had to have s.ex with their children or the siblings had s.ex with each other - just like with adam and eve. same with the animals. yep, noah forced incest on the animal kingdom.

February 19, 2013 at 1:17 pm |

Answer

@Kee

"but not everyone believes that is what we are to do."

-There in your sentence is the criteria for your self scrutiny. Your god is a failure.

February 19, 2013 at 1:19 pm |

Bootyfunk

there ARE genealogies in the bible. and whether you like it or not, you can count backwards from jesus to david to adam. the math is there. i'm sure it's embarrassing for you - but you have to say the bible is wrong if you don't think the world is 10k old.

and on slavery... wouldn't you think god would get that one right? wouldn't you think god would say distinctly "to own another human is wrong - never participate in slavery. slavery means r.ape. slavery means torture. slavery means murder. and god didn't think to say slavery is evil? would have fit nicely in the 10 commandments. much more important than coveting your neighbor's wife would be taking your neighbor as a slave, don't you think? but instead the bible tells you how to sell/buy slaves. and you seem to be defending slavery? seriously? you can't be that terrible of a person, can you?

February 19, 2013 at 1:24 pm |

Answer

@Kee

Here is another thing you may want to pour over..

Do you not use the words "the bible contains the inerrant words of god"? If the bible does not have a complete understanding or presentation of the lineage of how your savior came about then the word inerrant is a failure.

Failure of the word "inerrant" means that your god left you with a INCOMPLETE book with errors. Do you get it?

February 19, 2013 at 1:28 pm |

TROLL ALERT

AvdBerg is a TROLL on this site, they are proven liars and are only here to sell their book and website for their cult.

Click the report abuse link to get rid of this troll.....

February 19, 2013 at 1:28 pm |

Kee

@ Answer
"but not everyone believes that is what we are to do."
> There in your sentence is the criteria for your self scrutiny. Your god is a failure.

No where in the Bible does it say believe the Earth is only 10,000 years old. Or count down from a list of ancient stories to determine when the world started.

Trust in God, man will fail you. God never will.

February 19, 2013 at 1:30 pm |

Answer

@Kee

Trust in god? Which god?

You christians don't want to place trust in your own self? Not even others – not your family? You know why old men hunger to get that saying out to you? Do you know really why?

To break you. Religion will break you and make you into the wretch that you will crave for so that you can be more pliable for control. Go on and fear to trust others. You sure show it well.

February 19, 2013 at 1:34 pm |

Karen

@Richard Cranium that's what AvdBerg doesn't get that it's all as.sumptions and lies because their ego is so over taken by the devil that they are clueless to the real truth of Christ.

February 19, 2013 at 1:35 pm |

Bootyfunk

god is the very definition of FAIL

god drowned babies in his great flood. god is a baby-killer. he drowned babies, pregnant women, the elderly, infirm, physically disabled, mentally challenged, etc. god is the biggest mass-murderer ever.

February 19, 2013 at 1:36 pm |

Thoth

@Kee – you claim that it is a 'fact' that more people own slaves now than in "biblical times" (whatever that means). Do you have a source to support that 'fact'?.

Also, as someone else pointed out, your bible has guidelines for how to treat slaves – this implies your god is ok with slavery, along with many other things like dishonesty, in.cest, et al.

February 19, 2013 at 1:37 pm |

Frank

"In twenty eight years of service we have never received a penny for our work as Soldiers for Christ. Please contact us via the Contact Page of our website to request a copy of our book. We do not charge and ship everything prepaid."

That's why it's for sale on Amazon for the Kindle for 7 dollars, liar.

February 19, 2013 at 1:38 pm |

Kee

@Bootyfunk

I think the Bible describes the deplorable condition of people. They owned slaves back then. We still do today. We benefit from China's slave labor. Why are we allowing slavery today? Do we need God to tell us they are wrong? Or, if we follow the 10 Commandments, how could we enslave or allow slavery?

February 19, 2013 at 1:38 pm |

Answer

"I think the Bible describes the deplorable condition of people."

-If you really do think, then I presume you have thought of this question "why did my god allow it and watch it happen?"

February 19, 2013 at 1:41 pm |

Live4Him

@Kee : I don't believe the Bible tells us the age of the Earth.

The Bible doesn't exactly say the age of the earth. However, if you add up the years in Genesis, 430 years in Egypt, 480 years between the Exodus and Solomon's Temple (1Kings 6) and archeological records lets us determine that Solomon's Temple began about 968 BC. These numbers total to 6127 years – which is only an approximate age of the earth.

February 19, 2013 at 1:42 pm |

Kee

"why did my god allow it and watch it happen?"

I'm not sure. Why does he allow slavery to flourish today? It is worse than it was in Biblical times today. Is this God's fault? Or our fault? Why does our American society support forced Chinese labor? Why are we supporting slavery today?

Why doesn't God kill you and I – and free our slaves?

February 19, 2013 at 1:45 pm |

Answer

Let's have Lie4 tell us how carbon dating or any of the other scientific methods of dating are wrong..

Go on and spill your YEC junk out here.

February 19, 2013 at 1:46 pm |

Richard Cranium

Keep on lyiing4him
How do you explain the Dispilio tablet, which was written 7300 years ago, 12 hundred years before your earth was created?

February 19, 2013 at 1:47 pm |

Answer

@Kee

Go on and ask your god about it. Tell us when you receive your reply from it.

February 19, 2013 at 1:48 pm |

Live4Him

@Answer : If the bible does not have a complete understanding or presentation of the lineage of how your savior came about then the word inerrant is a failure.

EPIC FAILURE! Inerrancy is not the same as omniscience.

February 19, 2013 at 2:04 pm |

Tom, Tom, the Other One

" Inerrancy is not the same as omniscience." Inerrancy asserts that everything that is stated as true. As in all claims made by the Bible, which I presume you believe to be inerrant. Not so, Live4Him?

February 19, 2013 at 2:09 pm |

Mass Debater

@kee – "No where in the Bible does it say believe the Earth is only 10,000 years old. Or count down from a list of ancient stories to determine when the world started."

Gen 5: 2-32

Gen 11: 10-26

So a lineage from Adam to Abraham which is claimed to be of divine origin given to Moses as they wandered the wilderness and tied the rag tag bunch of escaped slaves to a heritage going back to the begining of mankind which would have made them feel special I am sure. And then to be told they are Gods "chosen" people and believe they have an unbroken lineage back to the first human on the planet i'm sure they felt very full of themselves. However, actual data shows this lineage to be absolutely false with no way to fill the gaps in both time and logic, and would require taking a time span of about 9,000 years at even the loosest interpretation and spreading it to fit the dates of fossils and cave art from our ancestors dating back at least 40,000 years. It's not only implausible, it's impossible.

February 19, 2013 at 2:10 pm |

Live4Him

@Richard Cranium : Keep on lyiing4him

When you can be civil, I'll respond to your questions.

February 19, 2013 at 2:18 pm |

Live4Him

@Mass Debater : Gen 5: 2-32 Gen 11: 10-26

Well, I'm pleased that some are actually paying attention to the information that I post on this blog! However, you forgot three references: Exodus (430 years in Egypt) and 1Kings 6:1 (480 years to Solomon's Temple), and the archeological date of Solomon's Temple (968 BC).

February 19, 2013 at 2:26 pm |

Live4Him

@Tom, Tom, the Other One : Inerrancy asserts that everything that is stated as true. As in all claims made by the Bible, which I presume you believe to be inerrant. Not so, Live4Him?

Again, inerrancy is not the same as all information included. And this is what Answer was postulating.

February 19, 2013 at 2:32 pm |

Kee

The Bible says Cain, one of the sons of Adam and Eve, moved to a city. And it mentioned a specific city. Which suggests there were other cities. Who were these people in the cities? Could the Bible be describing a civilization that existed before Adam and Eve? Or the listed geneologies?

February 19, 2013 at 2:39 pm |

Richard Cranium

You are such a liar4him
In what way am I not being civil? I have caught you lying over and over. I have seen you use illogic as if it were logic, you have denied facts and tried justifying your myth in its place, you speak of science yet you clearly do not comprehend it.
Is it because you do not like the nick names I refer back to you, because your lying ways are certainly not for him.

I don't care if you respond to me. I prefer people that have logical thought process, people that can offer evidence of their claims, without the use of psuedo-sciences, which is all you ever put up.

February 19, 2013 at 2:46 pm |

Answer

"Could the Bible be describing a civilization that existed before Adam and Eve?"

-Let's see before Adam and Eve.. your book says that the "first man and then woman" were created. Your book got it wrong then.

February 19, 2013 at 2:48 pm |

Kee

@Richard Cranium

When you change someone's name into a slur, that is not being civil. I'd ignore your rants, too. It makes his life much better, I'm sure.

February 19, 2013 at 2:49 pm |

Kee

@Answer
-Let's see before Adam and Eve.. your book says that the "first man and then woman" were created. Your book got it wrong then.

Or you are wrong. The book might be trying to tell us something different.

February 19, 2013 at 2:53 pm |

Answer

@Kee

Well you can point out the passages in your book about it to prove it. Let see if your book is presenting the argument that Adam and Eve were not the first humans created. Oh – an idea... Lie4 has verified all of the bible so have Lie4 tell you where that verse is.😄

February 19, 2013 at 2:56 pm |

End Religion

"[to achieve full speciation after the Noah flood] you would need all other species to diversify in orders of magnitude faster than we did. Not eight speciations in eight million years, but a thousand specations in a century or so, just to preserve your flood myth, which we already know is indefensible."
http://freethoughtblogs.com/aronra/2012/07/25/aronra-vs-pastor-bob-enyart/

February 19, 2013 at 2:56 pm |

Richard Cranium

Take it in the Kee
A rose by any other name...
Lie4him has been lying over and over and deserves to be ridiculed.
It thinks the earth is only 6100 years old, which would be quite a surprise to the mesopotamians who were using a form of writing 10,000 years ago.
Lie4him is clearly delusional.
You are starting to appear to be similar.

February 19, 2013 at 3:21 pm |

Kee

_@answer
"Well you can point out the passages in your book about it to prove it."

Ecclesiastes 1 v12-18

February 19, 2013 at 3:27 pm |

Answer

@Kee

Go on and post all of it here on this blog. Tell me line by line what you interpret from it. I want to see you dance.

February 19, 2013 at 3:36 pm |

Kee

@Answer

No thanks.

February 19, 2013 at 3:39 pm |

Answer

@Kee

So you're declining to have a go at your own reference to an obscure babble reference to iterate your reference that you have stated proves your point?

Okies. So you don't want to go on the wrecking train of your own interpretations. Typical christian s-c-u-m always want others to start and have themselves say "that's not what I mean".

What I wanted to do right off was to get you to state it, but oh no, "I won't state it." Ya that's what I know you will always do.

February 19, 2013 at 3:43 pm |

Kee

@Answer

I don't "dance" because some jerk asks me to. Go away.

February 19, 2013 at 3:47 pm |

Answer

@Kee

On a textual forum.. the word 'dance'... LOL

You're funny. Taking this really personal aren't you? Your religion and belief on the ropes and now "you're a bully" remark.
Let's hear you state what "dance" is when someone asks you to do a dance on a textual forum.

February 19, 2013 at 3:55 pm |

HotAirAce

Why do we bother to discuss individual books or passages of The Babble (or any other alleged holy book) when it has never, not ever, been shown that there are any gods or that The Babble is the word of any god? Until a foundation is established for some god and The Babble, religion is nothing more than the oldest fantasy role playing game, with heavy emphasis on fantasy. It is no more real than Harry Potter or astrology. Anyone that claims to believe in a god, The Babble, or the divine jesus myth is delusional (mentally ill), a liar or both. Go ahead, prove me wrong!

February 19, 2013 at 4:12 pm |

ME II

Anyone know what's up with Belief Blog these days?

Several days of Pope coverage and nothing else.
No more weekday Speed Reads.
No articles over the weekend.

Just curious... thx

February 19, 2013 at 11:24 am |

Belief Blog Council

We decided your comments keep pouring in and most of you don't even stick to the topic at hand, how does it matter even if we decide to recycle the same topics every day?
Keep up with the cheerful bantering and refrain from ad hominem , be courteous and civil to one another.

February 19, 2013 at 11:41 am |

ME II

@Belief Blog Council (BBC?),
LOL. !
Point taken.

February 19, 2013 at 11:45 am |

..

@Belief Blog Council

Thanks for yanking AvdBerg's spam

February 19, 2013 at 12:11 pm |

Live4Him

@Belief Blog Council : We decided your comments keep pouring in and most of you don't even stick to the topic at hand

So essentially, only the frequent posters will be visiting the site, allowing the blog to fade away. This has happened before on other sites. Therefore, it is pointless to continue posting.

February 19, 2013 at 2:37 pm |

Saraswati

There's no point in doing the speed reads when it's all pope all the time. I'd guess either half the staff was laid off or they are trying to bore all the regular commentors into leaving.

February 19, 2013 at 2:41 pm |

ME II

perhaps they are just attempting to build an appreciation for the articles??

The fact that dinosaur tracks millions of years old were found near Greenbelt, MD.

On second thought, don't bother. You will simply vomit up more absurd nonsense that has no basis in fact whatsoever.

February 19, 2013 at 11:02 am |

Kee

@The fact that dinosaur tracks millions of years old were found near Greenbelt, MD.

It appears that dinosaurs roamed the Earth millions of years ago. Cool. What's your point?

February 19, 2013 at 11:09 am |

Madtown

Let's talk about how you'd be a follower of Muslim tradition, if you had been born in Egypt, for example. How would you envision your life be different? What types of things would you say to christians, who you would believe to be following the wrong path?

February 19, 2013 at 11:10 am |

Kee

_@Madtown

Do we have to make huge assumptions and use religious stereotypes like you do?

February 19, 2013 at 11:12 am |

Topher

Madtown

Well, for one I'd tell the Christian how I admire the fact in their religion they can know their destination after death. A Christian KNOWS that he's going to Heaven. In Islam, the Muslim has no assurance of Paradise. Even if I follow the Koran, read all the surahs, keep the 5 Pillars ... it'll still be up to whether Allah is having a good day. He could still cast me into Hell.

February 19, 2013 at 11:15 am |

sam stone

god creates man knowing he will sin. so, he will be glorified by forgiving the sinners, he will be glorified by punishing the sinners. we are nothing but pawns in god's self glorification jerkov plans. the question is why wouldanyone want to worship such a manipulative pr1ck, other than abject fear of god's temper trantrum

February 19, 2013 at 11:16 am |

sam stone

"A Christian KNOWS that he's going to Heaven"

A Christian BELIEVES he is going to heaven. It is still up to god, is it not?

"He could still cast me into Hell"

How is that different than the Christian god?

February 19, 2013 at 11:21 am |

fyi

Kee,

These folks have visited with Topher at great length on these forums. They are not just popping off on these subjects out of nowhere.

February 19, 2013 at 11:21 am |

Topher

sam stone

Good questions.

"A Christian BELIEVES he is going to heaven. It is still up to god, is it not?"

Of course it is up to God, but His promise is that if you repent and trust in Him (be born again) that your sins will be forgiven. The payment for your transgression has already been completed (the cross).

"How is that different than the Christian god?"

If you are saved you will go to Heaven. If not, God will give you what you deserve and be sent to Hell. Those who die in their sins will face the Great White Throne Judgment. Those not destined for Hell face the Bema Seat Judgment. Christians have assurance that with repentance and faith they will be saved. How awesome is that?

February 19, 2013 at 11:26 am |

Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

Duh, Kee. Topher believes in Young Earth Creation. He thinks humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, less than 10,000 years ago. Got any other questions?

February 19, 2013 at 11:29 am |

sam stone

What we deserve? Back to the intial point....your god is a vindictive little pr1ck, and apparently the only reason you have to worship him is to avoid his temper tantrum. This is not a characteristic of a child, this is the characteristic of a slave.

February 19, 2013 at 11:36 am |

Madtown

Do we have to make huge assumptions
---–
Which assumption, that he'd be Muslim? That's not a safe assumption? Of course it is. One of the main reasons he follows christian tradition, is because that's how he was raised. We don't choose the culture we're born into.

February 19, 2013 at 11:39 am |

Madtown

A Christian KNOWS that he's going to Heaven
-----–
Your elitist arrogance likely doesn't please God in any way. Remember how Jesus preached humility? Time for you to start following it.

February 19, 2013 at 11:42 am |

Topher

sam stone

Well, I would happily agree I'm a slave for Christ.

You break the laws, you pay the price. Why are you against justice? Don't you want murderers and rapists to be punished?

February 19, 2013 at 11:44 am |

ME II

@Topher,
"Why are you against justice? "
Depends on the definition of justice... the arbitrary whims of a supernatural being... no thanks.

February 19, 2013 at 11:47 am |

Topher

Madtown

While I think it's a fair point to say I grew up in a Christian culture, I do want to point out, however, that I wasn't a Christian growing up. I was atheist.

" Your elitist arrogance likely doesn't please God in any way. Remember how Jesus preached humility? Time for you to start following it."

How is anything I've said elitist? When have I said I'm better than anyone else? Remember how Jesus said to preach His Gospel to every creature? That's all I'm doing. I'd rather be hanging out with my wife or working on one of my hobbies than be hear getting called horrible names all day. But I don't want you to go to Hell.

February 19, 2013 at 11:49 am |

Madtown

How is anything I've said elitist?
----
Because you assert you "know" for certain, the answers to questions that humans have asked since the dawn of humanity. You don't "know" anything for certain, you believe. It's fine to not have all the answers! It's human nature to want to answer all our questions, but certain things are just beyond our reach. Continue to believe whatever you want, but set your arrogance aside and just admit you don't know anything for certain. No one does.

February 19, 2013 at 11:54 am |

Kee

@Madtown " One of the main reasons he follows christian tradition, is because that's how he was raised. We don't choose the culture we're born into."

Are you an atheist because of how you were raised? Were you just born into an atheist culture?

February 19, 2013 at 11:54 am |

Madtown

Are you an atheist because of how you were raised?
-----–
I'm not an atheist. It's a simple fact that the environment we grow into has a significant impact on our development. Are you seriously contending that culture is not a major factor in determining which religious tradition someone may choose to follow?

February 19, 2013 at 12:03 pm |

sam stone

You keep on calling it "justice"...if god knows what choice we are going to make before we are born, and he cannot be wrong, there is no free will. This is not justice. This is a punk. If you want to call it justice to justify your own self-loathing, have at it.

February 19, 2013 at 12:03 pm |

Kee

@Madtown – Are you seriously contending that culture is not a major factor in determining which religious tradition someone may choose to follow?

No. I can see why one would assume a person is a Muslim because they come from a Muslim culture. Or Jewish because they come from a Jewish culture.

But it is not always the case.

I assumed you were an atheist. I was wrong.

February 19, 2013 at 12:07 pm |

Topher

Madtown

That's not elitist. I'd have to believe I'm now better than you because of my knowledge on this. I'm not better than you or anyone else. I'm better off, though. But that doesn't fit elitist.

There are MANY things I don't know. As I'm often reminded on these boards, my mind is very simple. I'm fine with that. And I can certainly understand why you think I only have a belief. But if there's one thing I'm certain of, it's that Jesus Christ lived, was the Son, died to take the punishment I deserve and defeated death by rising again.

Have you heard the heater analogy?

February 19, 2013 at 12:07 pm |

Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

The more you boast about what you "know" is going to happen, Gopher, the less credible you become.

Nobody knows. Not you, not me. You believe, and that is all.

February 19, 2013 at 12:07 pm |

End Religion

Topher, you're for secular justice, even if you say your god commanded you to break a secular law?

February 19, 2013 at 12:11 pm |

Topher

End Religion

I don't understand your question.

February 19, 2013 at 12:18 pm |

Madtown

I'm better off, though
----
I think you'd be better off to humbly admit you don't have all the answers, despite what you believe.

February 19, 2013 at 12:22 pm |

End Religion

Topher, what if you considered yourself an Abraham and today you believe your god told you to kill your child but then didn't stop you as he supposedly stopped the original Abraham. Would you then turn yourself in and gladly go to jail because murder is wrong? Or does your idea of justice only belong to god?

February 19, 2013 at 12:29 pm |

ME II

"Would you then turn yourself in and gladly go to jail because murder is wrong?"

Why do it in the first place? Would you kill your son solely because your God commanded it?

February 19, 2013 at 12:36 pm |

Topher

End Religion

Well, first, that would never happen. The canon is closed.

But if you're asking if God's law is higher than ours, I'd say yes.

February 19, 2013 at 12:37 pm |

Answer

Who taught god his own laws that bind him?

February 19, 2013 at 12:39 pm |

End Religion

So you do feel it is OK to abuse children as long as you believe your god has told you to do so?

February 19, 2013 at 12:41 pm |

Ich Beschuldige

Topher
One of these days why not make your first post; Good morning, shall we discuss the topic of the article. That would be refreshing. BTW the new pope will probably be a dinosaur in outlook as many before him have been.

February 19, 2013 at 12:43 pm |

Socratic Method.

@End Religion

Ask lots of questions and gently try to lead them into your point.

February 19, 2013 at 12:45 pm |

Topher

End Religion

"So you do feel it is OK to abuse children as long as you believe your god has told you to do so?"

This is really a ridiculous question, no offense. God has not told us to abuse children. It would be against His nature. Maybe a bigger question to ask would be if our government makes it a law to do something I feel is sinful, do I have to follow the law?

February 19, 2013 at 12:46 pm |

Saraswati

@Topher:

"A Christian KNOWS that he's going to Heaven. In Islam, the Muslim has no assurance of Paradise. Even if I follow the Koran, read all the surahs, keep the 5 Pillars ... it'll still be up to whether Allah is having a good day. He could still cast me into Hell."

OK, I've read the Quran cover to cover (hard as hell...one painfully boring book). I don't remember seeing anything about whether Allah had had a good day or not – any chance you have a reference for this?

February 19, 2013 at 12:47 pm |

Topher

Ich Beschuldige

"One of these days why not make your first post; Good morning, shall we discuss the topic of the article. That would be refreshing."

OK ... so let's talk about it.

"BTW the new pope will probably be a dinosaur in outlook as many before him have been."

Sure. Unless you believe that Papal prophecy we were talking about the other day.

February 19, 2013 at 12:50 pm |

End Religion

No, Topher, the best question is the one I asked. If you believe the bible is evidence then there is evidence that it is possible god could ask you to kill your own child (even if he doesn't follow through), and there is evidence that he will ask you to kill others (actually follow through). You say god's law is higher than man's so I ask what you would do if god asked you to kill your child?

February 19, 2013 at 12:52 pm |

Topher

Saraswati

"OK, I've read the Quran cover to cover (hard as hell...one painfully boring book). I don't remember seeing anything about whether Allah had had a good day or not – any chance you have a reference for this?"

Well, first, ask any devout Muslim. They will tell you they have no assurance. Second, it's a works-righteous system. "They whose balances shall be heavy shall be blest. But they whose balances shall be light, they shall lose their soul, abiding in hell forever” (Sura 13:102-140).

February 19, 2013 at 12:56 pm |

Live4Him

@End Religion : So you do feel it is OK to abuse children as long as you believe your god has told you to do so?

Do you feel that killing a child in an abortion is morally acceptable?

February 19, 2013 at 12:58 pm |

Robert Brown

Sam stone,

You seem focused on the judgment of God. Try this, God is the God of the second chance. He is also God of the third chance, and the fourth, and so on. Adjust your focus to his forgiveness and grace. His mercy endures forever.

Hmmm, so Topher, Live, and Robert really still have nothing new or of substance. How sad.

February 19, 2013 at 1:06 pm |

End Religion

I understand why you would dodge the question. If you had kids, you'd love them, and that love is stronger than your belief in your fairy tale. You and Live4Him both understand a child's heart is not lifted by abuse, right? That would be crazy, wouldn't it?

February 19, 2013 at 1:07 pm |

Answer

@Lie4

Will you adopt the babies that aren't aborted? What about a black baby? What about an Asian?

-Christians painting the moral and self righteous stance for themselves about "pro-life", but the moment the child is born you do an about face and do nothing else.

February 19, 2013 at 1:08 pm |

Eric G

@Live4him: Answer the question. Bad form to answer a question with a question.

You were not asked if you would have an abortion.

February 19, 2013 at 1:08 pm |

Ich Beschuldige

L4H
Do you believe an embryo growing in a petri dish is a child? Does it have a soul or does it have to wait to get a soul untill planted in the womb?

February 19, 2013 at 1:10 pm |

Robert Brown

A born again Christian “knowing” that they are going to heaven is in no way arrogance. It is trusting God which actually requires a great deal of humility. You can’t be born again until you trust God to do what he said he will do. We have a blessed hope, a blessed assurance, which we are thankful for and humbled by. Peace.

February 19, 2013 at 1:14 pm |

fred

Answer
You assume christians would go about like atheists sticking out their proud chests when they save a baby from the cold stainless steal bowl. We do not advertise when we save babies because the likes of those destined for the abyss would protest and harass the young innocent mothers.

February 19, 2013 at 1:14 pm |

Answer

@fred

Will you adopt that baby fred? Go on loser – speakth the words.

February 19, 2013 at 1:17 pm |

Eric G

Burden of proof is the responsibility of those making a claim.

Please provide verifiable evidence that your god exists.

February 19, 2013 at 1:18 pm |

Topher

Answer

"What about a black baby? What about an Asian?"

What does this have to do with anything?

February 19, 2013 at 1:20 pm |

Answer

Well Tophu .. what do you think it means?

Can you not equate the words "abortion" to a "baby" and the word "adopt"? Do you think humans produce shelled eggs like chickens?

Love the people who answers a question with a question...in effect, dodging the original question asked. Makes me laugh! Good God, the dishonesty at that tactic is appalling. I'm outta here...boring as hell today.

February 19, 2013 at 1:23 pm |

sam stone

"You seem focused on the judgment of God."

That is what Gopher bloviates on endlessly.

"Try this, God is the God of the second chance. He is also God of the third chance, and the fourth, and so on. Adjust your focus to his forgiveness and grace. His mercy endures forever"

"Even if I follow the Koran, read all the surahs, keep the 5 Pillars ... it'll still be up to whether Allah is having a good day. He could still cast me into Hell."

February 19, 2013 at 1:28 pm |

Saraswati

I love it

L4H writes:

"Do you feel that killing a child in an abortion is morally acceptable?"

Another one of those loaded questions for which s/he will claim there are only yes or no answers.

February 19, 2013 at 1:31 pm |

sam stone

Robert: A question for you. I have asked Gopher this and, as his nature, he dances around it without providing a straight answer...

if an omniscient god knows what we will choose before we are born, and god cannot be wrong, how does free will exist?

if god knows we will choose "a", and god cannot be wrong, is it possible to prove god wrong by choosing other than "a"?

February 19, 2013 at 1:32 pm |

Ich Beschuldige

To: Topher, Live4Him, fred, Robert Brown, Chad ,Bill Deacon, etc.
What advice would you give to the new pope on the issue of in vitro fertilization? I have yet to here any of your views on the subject. You all seem to believe that as soon as conception occus that the enbryo becomes a child. I will ask again. Do you believe an embryo growing in a petri dish is a child? Does the embryo have a soul or does it have to wait untill placed in a womb? If destroyed as also happens in a misscariage, equate to the death of a child? If deliberately destroyed is that the same as murder of a child as some of you say that an abortion is murder of a child?

February 19, 2013 at 1:40 pm |

Christianity is a form of SEVERE mental illness

Topher

End Religion

But He WON'T be asking it because the canon is closed.
...
That doesnt answer the question. You are in no position to say what your god would or wouldnt do. If your god came down to you and told youto kill your child.....would you? Its a rather simple question you are dodging.

February 19, 2013 at 1:45 pm |

Christianity is a form of SEVERE mental illness

sam stone

Robert: A question for you. I have asked Gopher this and, as his nature, he dances around it without providing a straight answer...

if an omniscient god knows what we will choose before we are born, and god cannot be wrong, how does free will exist?

if god knows we will choose "a", and god cannot be wrong, is it possible to prove god wrong by choosing other than "a"?
.
God is imperfect....the fall of 1/3 of his angels is evidence of this as well as man. In fact the evidence is god is of human DNA.

February 19, 2013 at 1:48 pm |

sam stone

Robert: Will you answer the question, or are you going to pull a Gopher?

February 19, 2013 at 1:52 pm |

Robert Brown

sam stone,

“if an omniscient god knows what we will choose before we are born, and god cannot be wrong, how does free will exist?”
Freewill exists because he allows us to choose, even though he knows what our answer will be.

“if god knows we will choose "a", and god cannot be wrong, is it possible to prove god wrong by choosing other than "a"?”
No

I have been involved in discussions about the omni’s of God before and what I don’t understand is why God knowing what you will choose prevents you from making the choice. There are those who say that God will not under any circu.mstances interfere with freewill. I think he does, I think freewill is limited when it involves God’s overall plan and purpose. I think we do have freewill, he calls, it is up to us to answer. When he called for me, I answered. I don’t think I could have resisted if I wanted to, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that someone else couldn’t reject him.

I don’t think you will agree with my answer but I believe God knows the future, he knows what you will choose, but that doesn’t prevent you from choosing. You can take that to the extreme and say, well if he knows then I don’t really have a choice. Would you prefer that he forced you to believe? Could you really be forced to love someone? You could be forced to do a lot things, but would it be genuine? God knows your thoughts, you can’t fool him.

February 19, 2013 at 2:10 pm |

sam stone

"I have been involved in discussions about the omni’s of God before and what I don’t understand is why God knowing what you will choose prevents you from making the choice"

because there is no chance that i will do something other than what he knows i will do. you have admitted that me choosing other than "a" when god knows i will choose "a" is impossible

February 19, 2013 at 2:15 pm |

sam stone

"Would you prefer that he forced you to believe?"

As opposed to threatening eternal punishment for disbelief?

February 19, 2013 at 2:17 pm |

Saraswati

@Robert,

I think you'll find if you just drop the "free will" concept from your understanding altogether it will all make a lot more sense. This concept doesn't exist in psychology or neurobiology.

February 19, 2013 at 2:17 pm |

Topher

sam stone

There's no dancing involved. As a fundamentalist, I don't dance.😉

It's not my fault you can't accept common sense. Just because God knew what you would decide doesn't mean you didn't have a choice and a decision to make.

February 19, 2013 at 2:20 pm |

End Religion

Among other embarrassing reasons, consider why YECs Gopher and Lie4It may be shy about answering, as Bob Enyart is their YEC hero...

Bob Enyart, a proponent of corporal punishment of children, convicted in 1994 of child abuse, beat a child so bad he broke the skin. He claims their "hearts are lifted" by the beatings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Enyart

Bob Enyart, in a typical lapse of integrity, was sued and had to change his show's name because people were mysteriously confusing his camoflouged radio show with an actual science show on NPR.
http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_22371596

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ilFvqxtWY&w=640&h=390]

February 19, 2013 at 2:24 pm |

Saraswati

"It's not my fault you can't accept common sense."

If I were running the CNN filter I'd consider adding "common sense" as a banned word. There is no reason to use this meaningless term except to get out of having to provide an actual argument. When I see "common sense" in someone's comment I read it as a big sign that says "I haven't thought out my ideas and they seem obvious to me so they should be obvious to you to"...If you resort to tossing out "common sense" in an argument, odds are very good you are both ignorant and lazy.

February 19, 2013 at 2:25 pm |

fred

Ich Beschuldige
Life is very important to God otherwise there would be no creation and God would remain in eternal abyss. The creation of the universe as a place for life to abound is little different than a womb where life has the perfect opportunity to begin its personalized expression of the creative process. After God created he always said and it was very good then rested on the 7th day.
In the image of God we create many things of wonder and continue in that creation process. A scientist that chucks a Petri dish full of embryos is no different than a racc-oon that rummages through a nest of eggs eating some and letting some fall to the ground. An abortion is a different matter all together as the heart and mind of the woman is already connected to the life within. That attachment remains as does the loss which can be very different from the loss through miscarriage.

God has provided the way for life to reach an eternal state all of which is to the glory of God not man and reflects the goodness and grace extended by God. When man takes a life there is the potential loss of an eternal state but we cannot know or guess what the path of that life would have been. God knows the path as well as our path. We should not intentionally do anything that would cause loss of life.

February 19, 2013 at 2:27 pm |

Mass Debater

" I don’t understand is why God knowing what you will choose prevents you from making the choice."

It does not "prevent" you from doing what God knows you will do, but I would hardly call that a choice. Would you ever let a murdering child r a p i s t out of prison if you "knew" he would continue commiting crimes? So why would God knowingly allow people to carry out the acts he knew they would which damns them to an eternity of torment? It's no longer a "test" if the outcome is already known, it's just an exercise in futility. If God already knows the outcome and everyone he will take to heaven and everyone who he's sending to heII then why is he letting the charade continue? I'll agree that sending those sinners to heII even before they have sinned seems brutal and harsh, but what exactly is the difference if he knows they will sin anyway right? It's just delaying the inevitible.

So yes, God knowing what you will "do" removes any choice you think you are making and invalidates the concept of sin and redemption. Even the supposed sacrafice Christ made, it's not really that big a deal if his self sacrafice was already set in stone and he had no choice in the matter, and thus can no longer be seen as self sacrafice.

February 19, 2013 at 2:28 pm |

Topher

End Religion

Yes, Bob Enyart is such a hero of mine that I've never even heard of him. You atheists claim we've got nothing to support our beliefs. Apparently, neither do you since all you do is post ridiculousness like this and call names.

February 19, 2013 at 2:28 pm |

Tom, Tom, the Other One

Actually, the omniscience of God and human freewill are compatible. To understand why, phrase the argument

God Knows X
__
__
Therefore X is compelled

filling in the blanks however you like using modal logic and recognize the modal fallacy.

February 19, 2013 at 2:30 pm |

Robert Brown

Ich Beschuldige,

“ Do you believe an embryo growing in a petri dish is a child?”
I don’t know if you could call it a child, but it is a life.

“Does the embryo have a soul or does it have to wait untill placed in a womb?”
I think it does have a soul.

If destroyed as also happens in a misscariage, equate to the death of a child?
Yes, my wife had a miscarriage and I can tell you for certain, she grieved.

If deliberately destroyed is that the same as murder of a child as some of you say that an abortion is murder of a child?
Yes

February 19, 2013 at 2:31 pm |

Robert Brown

Sam stone,

As I stated in my reply, there are those who believe that God does not interfere with freewill. If this helps you come to a saving knowledge of God, then by all means believe that it is a decision tree, if you choose God you will be saved, if you reject him you will be separated from him forever. He doesn’t know what you will do, it is entirely up to you. If that works for you and you get to know him then you can ask him yourself.

February 19, 2013 at 2:36 pm |

Morning

fred
Well so far only you have attempted an answer, I thank you for that. I would stiil like to know when you believe a fertilized egg receives a soul? Perhaps you do not believe that life begins at conception as many christians do, the ones that believe a child is formed once it becomes growing as an embryo.

February 19, 2013 at 2:36 pm |

sam stone

"It's not my fault you can't accept common sense"

You're a fine one to talk about common sense.

"Just because God knew what you would decide doesn't mean you didn't have a choice and a decision to make."

I do not have free choice in that I do not have an opportunity to do anything other than what the omniscient god knows what i will do

February 19, 2013 at 2:37 pm |

Saraswati

@Robert

"If destroyed as also happens in a misscariage, equate to the death of a child?
Yes, my wife had a miscarriage and I can tell you for certain, she grieved."

Are you presenting your wife's grieving as evidence? First, the period of grieving for a miscarriage is far less than for a lost child. Second, if your wifes dog died she would grieve (I assume) and that would not indicate they were the same thing. Third, I know an elderly woman who thinks her stuffed dog is a real dog, and if it "died", she would grieve just as if it were real, which would indicate nothing about that stuffed dog. Fourth, when one grieves for a lost embryo it is much more similar to the grieving one has after learing about infertility – it is in large part a grieving for lost opportunity and not a grieving for the loss of someone you know personally.

February 19, 2013 at 2:38 pm |

sam stone

"He doesn’t know what you will do,"

That is my point, Robert. An omniscient god and free will are inconsistent

February 19, 2013 at 2:42 pm |

Robert Brown

Freewill is not discussed amongst Christians in the way some of you on the belief blog state it. From a Christian perspective, discussion of freewill involves whether or not you can be saved, born again, or converted and then lose that salvation. Or, in other words you have freewill in that you can choose to follow God or turn from him, the way you go down determines the way you will get up.

February 19, 2013 at 2:45 pm |

sam stone

robert: i am speaking of it in logical terms, not in spiritual ones

February 19, 2013 at 2:50 pm |

Robert Brown

Saraswati,

Ok, I agree that the depth of grief is different between the loss of a loved one and a miscarriage.

February 19, 2013 at 2:51 pm |

Robert Brown

sam stone,
” An omniscient god and free will are inconsistent”
I understand what you are saying, but the theoretical inconsistencies only occur by taking those terms to the extremes that you are taking them.

I think an all knowing God and limited freewill are compatible.

February 19, 2013 at 2:59 pm |

sam stone

"...the theoretical inconsistencies only occur by taking those terms to the extremes that you are taking them."

Logic is an extreme?

"I think an all knowing God and limited freewill are compatible."

limited free will?

February 19, 2013 at 4:19 pm |

fred

Morning
"I would stiil like to know when you believe a fertilized egg receives a soul?"

=>John the Baptist, Jesus, Jacob and a few others had character and Spirit prior to birth. We are not given any clarity on this biblically however we know that the fetus is impacted by many things. Soul (in both directions fetus- mother, mother- fetus) incorporates the feelings and thoughts of the mother among other things. From a biblical standpoint I do not know of an eternal position for the soul that is affected prior to birth.

February 19, 2013 at 6:33 pm |

M.A.D.

Those mothers in purple, blue gown look like they are Inca tribe members.

February 19, 2013 at 9:52 am |

Saraswati

I think the colthes are quite pretty. I actually stack them on the plus side for Catholicism. Nice clothes...yummy wafers (yeah...you can get ahold of them pre-blessing), some nice stained glass, teaditionally some good unis. They have some good stuff...just outweight right now by their silly archaic stuff.

I agree, Saraswati. The contribution to higher learning is top-notch; their houses of worship, especially the older ones, are beautiful.

February 19, 2013 at 1:04 pm |

Science

For the Creationist on this forum

You are your own CREATIVE canvas go figure.

Evolution Helped Turn Hairless Skin Into a Canvas for Self-Expression

Feb. 16, 2013 — Hairless skin first evolved in humans as a way to keep cool - and then turned into a canvas to help them look cool, according to a Penn State anthropologist.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130217084216.htm

Peace

February 19, 2013 at 8:59 am |

Kee

Wow. God's creation is amazing.

February 19, 2013 at 10:47 am |

meifumado

@ Kee

Fantasy can be amazing, but its only fantasy.

February 19, 2013 at 10:52 am |

Kee

Yea, no kidding. Thanks for your enlightenment. You are so helpful and we are so lucky to have you and your insight. Amazing stuff, guy.

February 19, 2013 at 10:58 am |

Science

A War Without End, With Earth's Carbon Cycle Held in the Balance

Feb. 13, 2013 — The greatest battle in Earth's history has been going on for hundreds of millions of years - it isn't over yet - and until now no one knew it existed, scientists reported Feb. 13 in the journal Nature.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130213132323.htm

February 19, 2013 at 11:08 am |

Kee

Amazing, science. Thanks.

February 19, 2013 at 11:30 am |

Tom, Tom, the Other One

I don't know why the Cardinals are looking for a new pope when what they need is another good closer – maybe someone with some off speed stuff.

February 19, 2013 at 8:17 am |

Reality

The Apostles'/Agnostics’ Creed 2013: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.

Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

Amen
(references used are available upon request)

February 19, 2013 at 7:44 am |

Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

Prayer changes things.

February 19, 2013 at 6:51 am |

Richard Cranium

Lying is not healthy for children and other living things.
Prayer changes nothing.

February 19, 2013 at 8:03 am |

Jesus

Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!~

February 19, 2013 at 8:29 am |

Science

Thank you to the National Centre For Science Education (NCSE) for providing this information.

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.