I wanted to put my two cents in here. It's important to have one attribute used for one skill with a particular character and not switch to a different attribute for using the skill in different situations. IMHO, when Riggers are shooting with the Gunnery skill, Agility should always be used regardless of manual, remote, or jumped in operation and heedless of whether its AR, VR, vehicle or drone. To do anything else invites confusion and reduces the playability of Riggers. Before you jump to quoting ONE sentence in "CRB p. 183 Gunnery," think about what the next page is all about, targeting through passive and active sensor locks. I believe that the often quoted sentence requiring the use of Logic for all applications of remote control gunnery is really intended to give Deckers, who typically don't use agility much, a chance to effectively shoot with remotely controlled drones. The entire idea of using Logic to achieve a sensor lock is clearly a mechanic that was never intended for Riggers to use. Keep Agility for Riggers and leave Logic and sensor locks an option for other archtypes to use.

I wanted to put my two cents in here. It's important to have one attribute used for one skill with a particular character and not switch to a different attribute for using the skill in different situations. IMHO, when Riggers are shooting with the Gunnery skill, Agility should always be used regardless of manual, remote, or jumped in operation and heedless of whether its AR, VR, vehicle or drone. To do anything else invites confusion and reduces the playability of Riggers. Before you jump to quoting ONE sentence in "CRB p. 183 Gunnery," think about what the next page is all about, targeting through passive and active sensor locks. I believe that the often quoted sentence requiring the use of Logic for all applications of remote control gunnery is really intended to give Deckers, who typically don't use agility much, a chance to effectively shoot with remotely controlled drones. The entire idea of using Logic to achieve a sensor lock is clearly a mechanic that was never intended for Riggers to use. Keep Agility for Riggers and leave Logic and sensor locks an option for other archtypes to use.

And what decides whether you're allowed to use Logic or Agility then? Having a deck? Why is a Decker not allowed to use an RCC and Control Rig? While the explanation as to why you use Agility is an AR escape using movement? If anything, going 'don't use physical Attributes in VR unless Rigging' is MORE confusing. Also, why would my cyberarm help me in VR? I find using Agility in the matrix far more confusing than being allowed to use Logic when you're only using your mind.

Also: I have Rigger players. Under your 'better playability' proposal, they would never play an Open Event again. Because to them, it reduces playability. Heck under the current SRM rules they already will quit playing Riggers because it forces them to throw out Logic and become physical statted.

I think he argue that Gunnery should use Agility and [Accuracy] no matter if you use it for manual control, remote control, owner or not, AR, VR, jumped, via commlink, RCC, cyberdeck, vehicle-mounted or drone mounted etc.

And that the only exception to this would be sensor targeting (where you would replace [Accuracy] with [Sensor] and Agility with Logic).

But with current rules I'd say you already have the option to:

* Build a traditional rigger with focus on being a wheelman and a car mechanics. Maximizing Reaction and Logic. Using vehicle-mounted weapons and a Control Rig. No need for Agility.

* Or you could build a rigger with focus on drones swarms. Maximizing Agility. Using drone-mounted weapons, a RCC and perhaps also walking around with a LMG. No need for Logic.

What I'm saying is that the "default" to using Gunnery should always be Agility, don't force a Rigger to switch back and forth. If someone wants to built a Rigger around using Logic exclusively for Gunnery, there is no problem with that, just always use a passive (or active) sensor lock (with sensor rating instead of accuracy for the limit.) I'm not advocating forcing any Rigger to use Agility, I'm saying don't force them to use Logic. It's simple "Gunnery is always Agility unless you use a sensor lock, then it's Logic."

It wouldn't. A cyberarm only increases the effective Agility for tasks that use that one arm. Your Agility "Attribute" doesn't change with a cyberarm, it's a measure of how well your brain can control your body (or something else) a cyberarm is a system outside of that control loop.

I don't think Gunnery should always be agility that strikes me as some sort of sacred cow. If piloting is reaction I don't see why gunner can't be reaction. While that slightly reduce the MAD of riggers I don't think that solves the Archetypes underlying issues. To me it's a very dangerous game, and extremely thin line you make riggers safe to play and suddenly you have vehicular weapons sweeping the board. I think the break down is at VRC, that was the piece of tech that made you a rigger, so I think that needs to differentiated from decking. Jumping and go to VR initiative, is nice don't get me wrong, and I don't have any issue with decker being able to brick rigger stuff. But there conversations that go something like you jump in and then you become an persona and blah blah. Suddenly stops rigger from being riggers. Riggers jump in and they become the Car. That's how it was and how it should be, imo, and maybe that is equally scared cow stuff but that where i'm coming from.

It wouldn't. A cyberarm only increases the effective Agility for tasks that use that one arm. Your Agility "Attribute" doesn't change with a cyberarm, it's a measure of how well your brain can control your body (or something else) a cyberarm is a system outside of that control loop.

I'd usually agree with the sentiment that physical stats should be completely irrelevant in VR.

However I can see an argument supporting VCR making the notable exception. Since you feel like the vehicle or drone you're jumped into is your new body, the qualities of your natural body can arguably be relevant while jumped in. And if you've paid essence for enhancements that give agility augmentations, I can see your brain "understanding" that your agility is augmented at an innate level.

But shy of being jumped in? For remotely controlled Gunnery it should be Logic in VR, Agility in AR.

But there conversations that go something like you jump in and then you become an persona and blah blah. Suddenly stops rigger from being riggers. Riggers jump in and they become the Car. That's how it was and how it should be...

It actually still is.

You can take the jump directly from meat space to become the car, using the matrix attributes of the car. It is a non-matrix action called Rigger Jump In and is described on p. 167

It is normally a complex action, however, if you’re using a direct connection and already plugged into the vehicle you can jump into a vehicle directly from your meat body by taking a Simple Action (SR5 p. 266)

The control rig comes with a sim-module and it also provide you with DNI so you don't need anything else (no datajack or commlink with sim module etc)

...just that a lot of riggers now days are drone riggers and drone riggers would normally form a matrix persona on their RCC which provide them with matrix attributes and then use that persona to jump between their slaved drones (without first going out to VR between the jumps). This is described on SR5 p. 267

What I'm saying is that the "default" to using Gunnery should always be Agility, don't force a Rigger to switch back and forth. If someone wants to built a Rigger around using Logic exclusively for Gunnery, there is no problem with that, just always use a passive (or active) sensor lock (with sensor rating instead of accuracy for the limit.) I'm not advocating forcing any Rigger to use Agility, I'm saying don't force them to use Logic. It's simple "Gunnery is always Agility unless you use a sensor lock, then it's Logic."

Okay so when you said always you meant default. Check.

But actually you DO mean Always, not Default, and allow only one exception. And you want that to become the official universal SR5 ruling. Why are you saying you just want Logic as choice when in truth you want to force Agility on everyone?