To Noah: You just whine about my whining

"There is a perfect example of your utter dishonesty in this argument. You constantly bring up the Native Americans, but when we bring up Islamic history, you dismiss it as "ancient history". And in doing so you miss the point...that Islam has been violent since day one."

To your statement: "The Moors forced Christians to live as second class citizens (ie dhimmis) and expelled Jews at various times."

This is what I said: Aren't we talking of some very ancient societies here. The ancient Greeks and the Romans also did not have such a good record on human rights. Nor did the Christians of those times. Show me the connection between your reply and the exchange we had in the previous post. If this a perfect example of my dishonesty, I wonder what less perfect ones would be.

"Re-read that absurdity you just wrote. The Muslims "treated their subjects". Full stop. I don't give a damn how well they "treated their subjects". I consider being enslaved an act of war, I don't care how well treated I am by my captors. The very fact that they overran, enslaved, and relegated others to slavery status paints them black, regardless of how they treated their "subjects"."

I read it three times. I hope we are still talking about ancient societies. This is what I found:

The Muslims are known to have treated their Christian and Jewish subjects a lot better than the Christians did the Jews or the Christian sects each other. That is the history I was referring to. Their history is not as you insist an unbroken shade of black.

So were there no Jewish subjects under the Byzantines or Rome. How did the Christian empires treat the Jews under their domain? Did not Europeans overrun and enslave vast tracts of Africa and America. Were not hundreds of thousands of slaves shipped to America by European slave traders? How well were the slaves treated? The difference is that the Muslims (mostly Arabs) continued to have slaves right into the twentieth century. Pot calling the kettle black? How absurd is that?

"Perhaps you, Plato, don't mind being a worthless slave and a second class citizen, but I for one am perfectly willing to kill anyone who tries to enslave me."

I would kill for my freedom too. I would not be an Uncle Tom either to the Muslim or Chrisitan empires.

"....Conquered? None yet, but that's what we're trying to avoid, now isn't it? Even so, look at how they are cowing those countries in Europe to cater to their Islamic nonsense."

You have a very poor opinion of your European brothers. That they are being cowed down is news to me. But that the Muslims are trying to spread their Islamic nonsense I totally agree with.

"....Never under-estimate large masses of stupid people".

Nor should you over-estimate large masses of stupid people. You just have a bigger volume of stupidity.

This is what I wrote:"You a country with a 12 trillion dollar economy, instead of leading the world seems intent on dominating it."

You have a very fine sense of macabre humour. You wrote: No doubt they would resort to cannibalism, but they're barely able to eek out an existence as it is, with millions and in some cases billions of dollars in foreign aid. So they would die out pretty readily. We could always help them along by spraying with nerve agents, napalm, firebombs, etc. It would be easy."

IT WOULD BE EASY! That made me queasy, that is why I retched. I am sure you have an iron stomach. Maybe you have seen that, done that? I have not

"Plato, I thought you were doing this just to be annoying, but now I suspect you're just insane. America has created a strawman of Islamic terrorism? So all those suicide bombings in Israel are not real? All the genocide in Darfur and Sudan is not real? Amadmanjihad going on tv and saying that Iran will wipe Israel of the map is not real? These are all straw man arguments created by the USA?

You're not merely delusional, you are clearly insane."

The world is also aware of the reality that you are trying to wipe Iraq off the map. That you threatened North Korea. You have plans to wipe Iran off the map. That you emptied more munitions in Vietnam that in all the wars combined. That you interfere in any country almost at will (Chile, Iran, Iraq, Nicaragua, Pakistan...). Compared to your activities, those you mention, suicide bombers, Darfur, Amadman, are not just strawmen but hollow strawmen. Come back and tell me I am an America hater.

"Nothing is quite so irritating to Americans as critical foreigners who think they understand our system better than we do. Stick to what you know, Plato. Do you think the "surrender first" Democrats got into office last year because most Americans support the war?"

No I do not claim to understand your system. But I did notice that Bush was re-elected despite a war going wrong. Democrats got elected only when the American public could no longer ignore the blood and gore on their TVs and the trickle of news that the American body bag count was mounting.

I've already explained this to you more times than I can count, and this is why you are either dishonest or have a crippling reading comprehension problem. Christianity had a violent period, but civilized itself and has remained civilized. Also, we are talking about dealing with the threat of Islam, not Christianity. You seem to believe that just because Christians committed atrocities in the past, that they have no business denouncing and defending against atrocities today. You clearly do not "get it" and I am tired of trying to explain this to you. By your seeming argument, no one is entitled to defend against anyone, simply because everyone has committed atrocities at some point in time. It's a ridiculous, absurd, and insane argument.

You keep accusing me of misrepresenting you. Now what have you done here. I have been saying the same thing about Christianity. They had a violent period and are now civilized. And I have never said that Christians have no business denouncing and and defending against atrocities today. In fact I have been denouncing and attacking Islamic atrocities from the Prophet downwards. What I am protesting is your tendency to extreme measures resembling measures that are typical of Muslims. You clearly don't get what I am trying to convey. If I sound ridiculous and insane for erring on the side of caution rather than precipitate violent action then surely I am being absurd and insane.

"We gave them the know-how and the equipment to pump that oil. Hell, we gave them their countries! We owned Saudi Arabia and Iraq before they even existed as such! Let them give us back our equipment with interest, and pay us off for having raped the world over the oil barrel for decades and return those billions and billions of dollars in free aid that we gave them and we can call it even. If not, hell yes! Vaporize them and take the oil. Fair is fair!"

Noah you have been saying it all along but it was never this beautifully articulated and in a nutshell. Let us dissect and discuss what you have said threadbare.

"We gave them the know-how and the equipment to pump that oil."

You gave it away free? You gave it to them at (exhorbitant prices probably after bribing some princes and sheikhs) because you needed THEIR oil and not because you wanted to help them exploit their resources. Intentions are important you know.

"Hell, we gave them their countries! " Yes you handed it over to ruthless rulers who you could control so that THEIR oil flowed smoothly into your SUVs and MUVs.

"We owned Saudi Arabia and Iraq before they even existed as such! "

You still own them. Only it seems like you are holding two tigers by their tail. You can't let go can you? Good luck to you when you let go.

"Let them give us back our equipment with interest..."

The equipment they paid for and with which they extract THEIR oil for your SUVs and MUVs?

'....and pay us off for having raped the world over the oil barrel for decades..."

Pay you (USA, Europe, not Africa, rest of Asia?) for having raped the world? You seem to be enjoying it

"....and return those billions and billions of dollars in free aid that we gave them and we can call it even..."

Free aid to the Saudis? Correct me if I am wrong, I thought they were

bankrolling a good number of your companies with their investments (with the money they obtained by selling THEIR oil to the world using your technology for which they paid you a fair value). And to Iraq you gave billions of dollars in aid in the form of chemical and other weapons and then condemned them as inhuman when their leaders used them. You also blockade them for nearly ten years under cover of the UN causing untold misery and deaths. Return to the Iraqi parents the children who died because of your unconsionable action and I am sure the Iraqis will return the billions of dollars you claim you have given them free.

"The argument does indeed hold water, because it has been proven in two wars to be the reason we lost."

That is called being wise with the aid of hindsight. I can always prove to you that the politicians and generals who lost wars were fools after the event. If you lose it is because your generals were not allowed to fight the war. If you win the generals had a free hand. Your claim that the Taliban leadership was spared does not jell with the bombing of a madrassa in Pakistan killing mostly children. (nobody, not even the Pakistanis believe their client government did it)

"Here is your goal. Go accomplish it".

And then Caesar crossed the Rubicon.

"...And the problem is that our society is being inundated with propaganda and twisted to the point where the general public is too stupid to make decisions."

Your contempt for your own fellow citizens is showing. I can imagine what you think of citizens of other nations. And this stupid public is the backbone of your multi-trillion dollar economy, your freedoms, your pre-eminence in the world. And what will you do about the propaganda. Censorship? Is that acceptable to a constitutionalist?

"...I would agree that our society is becoming intensely immoral and depraved. We need to fix that."

A feeling of de ja vu came over me reading that. Isn't it the exact same argument used by Muslims for enforcement of sharia? Society is morally depraved. It must be fixed. Enforce sharia.

"Wrong. They can look at it, understand that it is evil, and reform their religion...."

I said they should accept what happened in their history. The rest of it would naturally follow including the push for reformation. You have shut your mind to the possibility.

You believe they're trying to reform. I, on the other hand, look at cold hard reality and see the fact that for every 1 Muslim you can show me who is truly reform-minded,

Your cold hard facts come out of some newspaper reports and a poll here and there.

"I can see that geography is another subject you flunked in school. Plato, precisely which border does America share with India, the Philippines, Thailand? "

Never got anything higher than Fs in geography. But what figures does your immigration department have for illegals from India, Philippines, Pakistan?

"If we deny Muslims the ability to fly in from their homelands..."

I can see flying is your favourite mode of transport. Did the native Americans teleport themselves there. How did the Australian aborigines reach that remote continent from Africa. On giant petrodactyles? Are you going to install motion sensors, body heat detectors all along your borders and sea shores?

"Clearly, virology is not your strong suit either. Sigh."

Sigh. Engineering is my suit, though not genetic engineering.

'An environmental engineer at Washington University in St. Louis with his doctoral student has patented a device for trapping and deactivating microbial particles. The work is promising in the war on terrorism for deactivating airborne bioagents and bioweapons such as the smallpox virus, anthrax and ricin, and also in routine indoor air ventilation applications such as in buildings and aircraft cabins. http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-26645.html'

'A virus cannot be killed using antibiotics. Those medications are meant to slay bacteria, which are a whole different enemy altogether. Viruses cannot be beat by using herbs, colostrum, or any of the popular multi-level marketing products touted as being immune enhancers and germ fighters. The nastier viruses will not succumb to extremes in body temperature either fever or cold. In short, viruses are perfect weapons because they can't easily be done away with. ' End of quote.

That University is wasting its resources. It just has to tell the government to follow your advice about deporting all Muslims and blocking entry to Middle Eastern types. The US government would also be well advised to block entry of not only migratory Muslims but also migratory birds.

"Yes, that you have your history backwards, as usual. Jordanians are not misplaced Palestinians. The so-called Palestinians are misplaced Jordanians. And yes, that is highly representative. Polls in other Islamic countries are also overwhelmingly negative. I already posted all that."

I defer to your superior knowledge of history. At least you accept that there are a lot of displaced people in Jordan because of the formation of Israel and so a poll among them can hardly be considered representative of Muslim opinion. However, I will concede that you will get a consistently high percentage of anti-American feeling in Islamic countries. To get a true picture you will have to do a poll among non-Muslim populations about their feelings towards America. The link below says something about this. (And also your fears about the migratory Muslim attack). http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/14/sprj.irq.protests.rodgers.otsc/

This anti-Americanism is believed to be much worse than what has gone before. Analysts warn that a whole generation of America-haters is being created, a European generation which they say believes Americans deliberately bomb civilians and kill Arab babies.

A Channel 4 television poll in the UK said the country that Britons regard as the biggest threat to peace today is not Iraq or North Korea -- it is the United States. (I know you are hung up on polls, so also refer to the Pew poll on Muslim attitudes, a simple google search)

"Again, leave it to a clueless foreigner to try to tell America how to run its life [rolling my eyes]. You ignore Iran, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, which are also hotbeds of terrorism. And what do you mean by "take care of"? Do you propose I nuke Saudi Arabia and Pakistan off the map?"

We clueless foreigners only tell you how to run your lives. Americans go and run our lives. In South America and Central America (remember what was done to Chile under Allende, Nicaragua, Iraq, Iran under Mossadeq, practically all the Persian Gulf states.) Nuking seem to come easily to your mind. But for us liberals taking care can have a vastly different meaning. And the taking care I have tried to spell out here.

"I do not acknowledge that Islam suffers from "the crimes of the few". You are delusional. When 88% of Jordanians favor violence and suicide bombing, how can you claim (with a straight face) that it suffers from the "crimes of the few"? As I said, you live in denial of reality."

Your not acknowledging it does not make it true or false. And the Jordanian poll is the favourite hammer you use to bludgeon the Muslims as though the Jordanians or even the Arabs constitute the large majority of Muslims

"But of course, when someone is as ignorant of geography as you clearly are, that makes the matter confusing for you."

"I don't care if it's 100 million or 1.2 billion. Islam is the evil threat, they are the ones attacking and trying to dominate the world. If annihilation is their karma, so be it"

I see you are a great believer in karma. So how can you be sure that conversion to Islam in the future is not the karma of the USA. How can you be sure that all those conversions in Egypt, Iran, Turkey, Indonesia, India were not their karma. Can you say amen to all that.

"Yes, because the book you mention is a theory, and still in the developmental stage. On top of that, there are no physical viruses that can change thoughts and attitudes. You're just being silly."

Let's see how silly I am. Read this from: http://cuttingedge.org/news/n1812.cfm (probably a far-out Christian website, go ahead and laugh at it or look at it as the not-so-far out future )

"The deadly SARS pandemic, which has claimed more than 500 lives worldwide, originated as a bioweapon in a U.S. research lab, according to the Hong Kong newspaper Wenweipo."

While the rest of this article sets out to debunk this view, I felt a sense of deja vu. In 1994, I read a very small article in our local paper in which Israeli government officials admitted that Israel was working on a deadly disease that would only attack persons of Arab genetics! This small article was not repeated by any major news network and died a very quick death. Since I was between the time I stopped Cutting Edge Radio (March, 1993) and before I began the Internet ministry (June, 1996), I did not save this article.

However, an Israeli doctor who is a Cutting Edge subscriber, noted this very fact in an email I received this morning, May 15, 2003. I had asked this doctor if it is possible that SARS could be genetically engineered to attack only Orientals. Listen to the reply:

"In my 'heart of hearts' I believe that SARS is genetically engineered to target Chinese (Oriental) genetic materials. You may already know that Israel has been working on such a thing, specific to Arab genetic material. Knowing the military-industrial-medical cartel like I do, I would not be surprised if this isn't a 'test market' for something more sinister regarding other populations. What leads me to suspect that genetics are involved is that China is now trying to impose the death penalty on anyone who has contracted SARS. This lets me know that it is much more sinister than an ugly flu strain."

"I see. So you would be as strongly opposed to inventing a virus that would case Muslims to become peaceful as you are to nuclear holocaust? You're a strange, weak, and absurd person."

Yes I am opposed to both. And therefore strange, weak and absurd to your way of strategic thinking. Please read these:

'Viruses of the mind are not some far-off future worry like the sun burning out or the earth being hit by a comet. They are here with us now—have been with us since before recorded history—and they are evolving to become better and better at their job of infecting us. We are being infected in some new ways—television, popular music, sales techniques—but also in very ancient ways—education, religious teachings, even talking to our closest friends. Our parents unwittingly infected us when we were kids. If you have children, chances are you are spreading the viruses to them every day.

Cult religions are springing up everywhere, the result of more and more powerful mind viruses. These cults take control of people's minds and make members engage in bizarre behavior ranging from odd rituals to mass suicide. If you think you're immune, remember: nobody ever set out intentionally to join a cult and have their mind taken over. It's the work of tricky and pernicious mind viruses. And once the founder of the cult starts the process, the virus of the mind takes on a life of its own. http://www.ennex.com/~Marshall/viral/ref/199505-Brodie.asp'

Now the question is which virus are you carrying. I know I carry the Kumbaya virus (remember you and Susan diagnosed me with it). Go on call this insane babbling by a Kumbaya Muslim apologist who has lost it.

"Real warriors would be the ones with experience, with actual strategic and tactical training and experience."

So in your opinion the people running the current war are inexperienced without strategic and tactical training which is why you are losing or you have elected an idiot as a president who is not allowing the generals to run the war. Both scenariors are scary. Can the world afford to have America giving it leadership?

You write: "No they'd be picked based on their knowledge and experience. How dense are you? You want to win wars, you put your best soldiers in charge."

I had asked: "Who decides who are the real American warriors. The public vote to decide which general has the most blood-curdling strategies?"

This very dense person wants know whether you have answered my originaly query with your answer.

Try applying your absurd whining to your own absurd claims. Can you guarantee me that Islam is not going to try to dominate the USA? Can you guarantee me that Al Qaeda will not have some sleeper cells slip in a nuclear device and take out New York City? Can you guarantee me that Islam is going to peacefully reform itself?

See, I at least deal with reality and historical precedence. You engage in absurd fantasies that are in denial of reality and history. Which is why I dismiss you and Michel as fools

This is what I wrote: Now you spell it out (no guarantees). A little higher, a little lower or maybe a 100 fold higher. No wonder you are not guaranteeing anything. The only thing you are guaranteeing is that the Muslims will do what you say they will do if your plan is not carried through.

Clever. Very clever. When you can't provide a guarantee ask for a counter guarantee. You are the one who finally admitted that your casualty figures are only good estimates. And those good estimates have 100 fold saftey factors! But you do provide one guarantee, the Muslims are planning and will launch a migratory attack. How did you manage that?

"It can't be 1,000 fold since there are not that many Muslims in America!

This is what I wrote: I don't see brilliance in a plan which had 20k casualties but could be a bit higher, maybe a 100 fold higher. That is about the exact figure of the Muslims you estimate are in the US. Yes I want it to be uworkable as long as you have such wildly differing casualty figures. How do I know it could not be a 1000 fold higher."

After saying that 100 fold equals the number of Muslims in America what would my saying it could be 1000 fold higher signify. Oh yes I have to spell it out. It means that you are now in the collateral damage territory.

"I'm convinced that you are a Muslim apologist, since all you do is whine about how Muslims are being mistreated."

Noah show where I have 'whined' about Muslims being mistreated.

"...They choose their destiny. I am totally open and in fact have stated that I far prefer a situation in which Islam reforms itself, denounces terror, and becomes civilized. However, I am also a realist who understands that is a pipe dream and who is not afraid to go to war and destroy the enemy if it comes to that...."

You are also convinced that I am Michel. You prefer one thing but you know with 100% certainty that your preference will not be met so I will take the pre-emptive action that I consider is just so reasonable. And you are sickened by any one who disagrees with your plan. You know that those who oppose it are Muslim apologists, and stupid fools to boot. Again the Koran verse challenging anyone to bring 'a verse like it' comes to mind. The possibility of Muslim reformation is a pipe dream like the Koranic challenge not being met.

The 50th example of your dishonesty and lies. The Nazis did not "watch the Jews die". They actively worked to annihilate them in a genocidal extermination program.

Now you want to actively work to deport 2 million people because of your belief that everyone, save the mythical .0001 per cent, are hell bent on destroying you. You have very little to prove that even 50 per cent are bent on subverting you. Except by a rally in Arizona or some poll in Jordan based on which you have this astonishingly clear picture of a Muslim master plan to dominate America.

"...I would watch Muslims die as a result of their attack on me and my country, as a result of their aggressions and attempts to destroy my society. You are again being dishonest and spewing propaganda by claiming that I would watch Muslims die "because of their beliefs"...."

You are talking of a putative attack. If that attack happens I will be willing to lend my rusty third world gun to you. You will kill Muslims because you believe each and every one (.0001 per cent who you believe are innocent are to brushed aside as collateral damage) of them will be guilty because some polls showed Muslims consider Bin Laden a hero.

You have "serious doubts" about anything that does not fit your insane, unrealistic and unfounded view of reality, and yet you admit to having no knowledge on which to back your claims. You have still, to this day, refused to generate a workable and realistic plan of your own. Which tells us much about you. You're a whiner, a whiner who fears strength, who fears those who are bold enough to protect what is theirs. You are the ideal dhimmi, just like Michel is. Weak, ignorant, and unrealistic."

You keep discovering again and again that I am a whiner. I did give you a plan. A manhattan project to develop a virus which you laughed off and which was given only as a counterpoint to your 'realistic' plan. But now it looks as though the unthinkable can be a reality soon.

"Not if they do not have the money, the backing, the contacts, the networdk to enact their plans. As usual Plato, you criticize, complain, and whine, but you demonstrate that you have no intelligence on which to draw from to back your claims and your criticisms".

I have been wondering about this Hiroshima plot you have been talking about and some googling brought up this site: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45203. I can see now why you sound as though you have seen Bin Laden hiding in your neighbour's basement. You really must be a terrified man. My sympathies.

Again, all you can do is whine and criticize, and yet you consistently fail to refute my claims using cold, hard facts. I challenge you once again to prove me wrong. Show me proof of this massive movement in Islam to reform itself and become peaceful. Afghanistan is instituting Sharia law.

Any time you don't like what anyone else says you think it is whining. Your cold hard facts are what? Some numbers you have worked out in your head based on a survey here or there, on what you are told in the mainstream media, many with agendas of their own and based on that you have developed a siege mentality resembling the Muslim cry of Islam in danger based on as flimsy grounds as your own. And what exactly am I supposed to prove you wrong about? That Islam a violent conversion ideology? I never denied that. That every Muslim on the street is a dangerous fanatic ready to risk life and limb to implement the agenda contained in a book he has not read but for historical reasons considers the basis of his moral and etnhical beliefs. That I do not agree with. You don't see moderate Muslims on this blog nor do you see them on the streets which makes you come to the conclusion that they are non-existent.Your numbers are based mostly on anecdotal incidents and on some desultory surveys.

"You have "serious doubts" about anything that does not fit your insane, unrealistic and unfounded view of reality, and yet you admit to having no knowledge on which to back your claims. You have still, to this day, refused to generate a workable and realistic plan of your own. Which tells us much about you. You're a whiner, a whiner who fears strength, who fears those who are bold enough to protect what is theirs. You are the ideal dhimmi, just like Michel is. Weak, ignorant, and unrealistic.

You brush aside whatever you find inconvenient. The Memri site, the Pew polls, all if they go against the 'reality' you have created in your mind are trashed. And you have this 'well-thought' out plan for deporting 2 million people on the the unfounded (except in your fertile imiganiation) premise that every Muslim is just waiting to fill Bin Laden's shoes. Any plan anyone else comes upwith is unrealistic, flies against the face of facts and is guaranteed to fail. Any one who so much as points to the possibility of Muslims being capable of reforming is told he is a whiner, a dhimmi, a stupid fool who is living in a fool's world.

This is your reply: "Not if they do not have the money, the backing, the contacts, the networdk to enact their plans. As usual Plato, you criticize, complain, and whine, but you demonstrate that you have no intelligence on which to draw from to back your claims and your criticisms".

And this is what I had written: "It is not 100% certain but common sense tells you that America is rushing helter skelter towards disaster as long as there is a single Muslim within its borders as the Muslims are incubating the Hiroshima plot and the Holocaust plan. "

"Then prove me wrong Plato! I am sick of listening to your whining and your lies. I have given proof that only a tiny fraction of one percent of Muslims are reform minded based on their actions and the numbers associated with those actions"

Something I have culled from your posts:

"...if you believe in that nonsense about 85%-90% of them being peaceful.... (74051)

And none of you yet have spelled out a detailed plan for dealing with Islam using your "Kumbayah Method". All we hear from you is "eventually, the voices of reason will prevail". And then I point out the rally in Arizona where a community of 50,000 Muslims failed to generate even a couple hundred Muslims speaking for peace. I point out that nowhere in the Muslim world are the mythical "85%-90% peaceful" Muslims able to suppress and overpower the supposed 10%-15% violent minority.

Why? If every single one of them were Muslim, that's less than half a percent. That's a meaningless number. If only 5% of those who attended were Muslim, then that was between 13 and 20 people, or 0.026% to 0.04% of the Muslims. That's not even what I'd consider a '"real" number. That's an aberration. An anomaly. A statistical error. It's meaningless. Even if it was as high as one-half of one percent, that's still an anomaly, not a significant movement in the Muslim community.

A second anti-terror rally was held for Muslims in Washington, DC in March of 2005. Estimated attendance...50 to 150 Muslims. I lnyl have one source for the number of Muslims living in Washignton DC and that number is 60,479 (in the year 2000). So once again, only 0.08% to 0.2% showed up. Note that Washington DC is the home of CAIR, the largest and most active Muslim group in America. Those numbers speak loud and clear.

Show me where this mythical mass of moderate Muslims is reforming Islam? Are they doing so in Egypt? Jordan? The so-called Palestinian territories? Sudan? Iran? You have nothing to work with, Plato. People are basically referring to me, Susan, and other realists as "hawks", and yet you "doves" have yet to offer even a single, sane, workable, realistic, peaceful solution to the problem.

These are some of the bits and pieces of the evidence you have presented for claiming every American Muslim (but not vanishingly zero) is Bin Laden's assisstant. I know that you are a born military strategist. You also must be a sociologist to use those figures to come to the conclusion that all Muslims, especially American ones, are dangerous fanatics waiting to become human bombs. Just a thought. What if a peace rally (or even a war rally against Iran) is called in say Washington? How many would you expect to turn up? (one curious fact I noted 60,000 muslims live in DC and DC's population is about 500,000, meaning Muslims constitute more than 10%?).

My search of your posts turned up the above . I am sure there a few more showing Muslims woefully lacking any inclination toward peace. Would you think those figures would stand scientific scrutiny. But the more scientific Pew polls gave me the figures below. Compare them with the figures you have managed to cobble together.

Pew Polls:

Support for terrorism: All the Muslim populations polled display a solid majority of support for Osama bin Laden. Asked whether they have confidence in him, Muslims replied positively, ranging between 8% (in Turkey) and 72% (in Nigeria). Likewise, suicide bombing is popular. Muslims who call it justified range from 13% (in Germany) to 69% (in Nigeria). These appalling numbers suggest that terrorism by Muslims has deep roots and will remain a danger for years to come.

The latest survey by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, conducted among more than 17,000 people in 17 countries this spring, finds that while many Muslims believe that radical Islam poses a threat, there are differing opinions as to its causes. Sizable minorities in most predominantly Muslim countries point to poverty, joblessness and a lack of education, but pluralities in Jordan and Lebanon cite U.S. policies as the most important cause of Islamic extremism.

The polling also finds that in most majority-Muslim countries surveyed, support for suicide bombings and other acts of violence in defense of Islam has declined significantly. In Turkey, Morocco and Indonesia, 15% or fewer now say such actions are justifiable. In Pakistan, only one-in-four now take that view (25%), a sharp drop from 41% in March 2004. In Lebanon, 39% now regard acts of terrorism as often or sometimes justified, again a sharp drop from the 73% who shared that view in 2002. A notable exception to this trend is Jordan, where a majority (57%) now says suicide bombings and other violent actions are justifiable in defense of Islam.

Other Major Findings

- Concerns over Islamic extremism are widely shared in Western publics and Muslim publics alike. But an exception is China, where 59% express little or no concern over Islamic extremism.

- Muslims differ over whether there is a struggle in their country between Islamic fundamentalists and groups wanting to modernize society. But solid majorities of those who perceive such a struggle side with the modernizers.

"The Muslims have openly declared war against us, have openly threatened to destroy us, and have openly and admittedly commited attacks and atrocities against us."

A lone individual declares war on you. He is a Muslim. Almost all Muslims are admirers of Osama (your assumption). Therefore all Muslims have declared war on you. And the moon is made of green cheese.

"Yeah, they'll crawl across oceans. Get real"

Remember telling me 'God forbid was a figure of speech'. You really thought I said they would crawl on their hands and knees to the US? Your opinion of my intelligence level must be way below moron. You also think I babble (like a baby). So why do you take the trouble to post replies. Being my guru. I welcome that. But Susan refuses to be my teacher any more. I feel sad.

Noah all I see is your whining about my whining in your posts.

You are not 100% certain but your commonsense (which people like me do not have) tells you that even a single Muslim in the USA would mean the Hiroshima and Holocaust plots would come to pass. If you are so sure these plots exist and since you are so intelligent why can't you scotch it before it matures? I am so stupid that I am not able to understand how all those nukes, suitcase devices and other nuclear toys go into Al Qaeda's hands without anybody being aware of it except people who made you wise about it. Your eyes must have rolled some on reading that.

This is what I wrote: First, the phrase 'virtually insures' comes off so easily from your keyboard. Second, nuking population centres as though you are cauterising a wound. After reading the rest of it I had to rush to the sink and retch."

The drama was in response to what you said: 'We could always help them along by spraying with nerve agents, napalm, firebombs, etc. It would be easy.'

I don't know many people, at least in my Kumbaya circle, who would not react the way I did. I see that lately you keep you iced tea mug out of reach. Spraying tea out of your nose must be a waste of good tea. Rolling your eyes is a more economical alternative. So keep rolling them

as you continue to have an insatiable desire for it.

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Mark my comment as a response to To Noah: You just whine about my whining by Plato

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".