I don't see the advantage of dumping him after one year. First time head coaches always have rough periods. The team didn't even underachieve with him in all his mistakes. We need to let a guy grow. If he continues making mistakes then let him go. It's not even like we need a "better" coach to get to a next level.

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I have not seen one sign of growth yet from this guy. I will let you know if I see any change to that. Meanwhile, until I see that first sign - like maybe he takes responsibility for what happens around him - if he ever even realizes he made a mistake so that he can learn from one - something, anything, and I will let you know.

I don't see the advantage of dumping him after one year. First time head coaches always have rough periods. The team didn't even underachieve with him in all his mistakes. We need to let a guy grow. If he continues making mistakes then let him go. It's not even like we need a "better" coach to get to a next level.

Since I'm hardly an expert on basketball I'll keep my critique too what I do understand and that is his way of expressing himself during games. Everytime something goes against him he looks like he is ready to surrender and that too me a bigger flaw than spreading the minutes somewhat wrong. I have no problems with coaches who shows emotions but don't show it like this. Get angry, scream or whatever, but don't look like you are going to give up. How hard can it be? Count the times you see Babcock doing this in crunch time during the 10/11 season.

I have not seen one sign of growth yet from this guy. I will let you know if I see any change to that. Meanwhile, until I see that first sign - like maybe he takes responsibility for what happens around him - if he ever even realizes he made a mistake so that he can learn from one - something, anything, and I will let you know.

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I'd like to know more about what you feel he has done wrong. Could you give some examples? I'm not disagreeing, just want to know more. Thanks.

No coach is going to look good when he's forced to play lineups which are killed by injuries, like the Pistons were last season. He was forced to play tons of games where the only offensive threat on the floor was Stuckey. Crimminy, Chucky Freaking Atkins was our backup PG virtually the entire year.

I'd like to know more about what you feel he has done wrong. Could you give some examples? I'm not disagreeing, just want to know more. Thanks.

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1) Went to playoff rotation one week before pre-season ended.
2) Played Tay 38 minutes a night, in a 3 game in 4 night set to start last season. (Result: back injury to Tay that ruined his season.)
3)Left Rip out there in garbage time in game one. (Result: sprained ankle, that ruined his season.)
4) Believed that the future of the Pistons was Kwame "Brick Hands" Brown.
5) Even after JJ had a real good run early for us, he tried to sit him again (for good if he could have. Fortunately, more injuries occurred.)
6. Played a myriad of vets while they were still injured to the point they were losing us games. Let me know if you need the list. I'll mention Tay for now.
7. Early on, Summers got into a few games where he helped lead a strong comeback attempt for us. Never did it translate into even a taste of playing time for him though.
8. And on, and on, and on. Enough to start talking about the subject though if you wish.

Just read an article at pistons.com, basically listing all the players who could get minutes because JJ got injured. Funny, they did not list Summers.

So here is a rotation, that has Summers in it at least.

Start: Stuckey, Rip, Tay, CV, Ben Wallace.

2nd unit: Bynum, Gordon, Summers, JMAX, Monroe

Daye is the 11th man, with all of Tay, Rip, Gordon, CV, Summers, JMAX, and Monroe giving up minutes for him on occasion.

No indication that TMAC is ready to play yet by what we saw the first pre-season game. Diogu has yet to play. No Wilcox yet. White and JJ out injured for now.

Someone still has to be cut.

Since I got a bit of time, here are some more possible rotations;

Start Gordon, Rip, Tay, Summers, Monroe

2nd unit: Bynum, Stuckey, Daye, JMAX, Ben Wallace

CV is the 11th man here. Extra depth at power forward, also can sub for Ben Wallace, moving JMAX to center. On days you need it, obviously JMAX or Ben Wallace can step in for one of Summers or Monroe to give the starters more strength up front.

I know you like to list some "interesting" line-ups, but Ben Gordon should never be considered for the PG position. T-Mac has more in common with a PG than Gordon. Oliver Miller is a better option at PG than Ben Gordon.

I know you like to list some "interesting" line-ups, but Ben Gordon should never be considered for the PG position. T-Mac has more in common with a PG than Gordon. Oliver Miller is a better option at PG than Ben Gordon.

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LOL. And agreed - Bengo is not a PG in any way shape sense or form. He's a great scorer and we should use him as such. Look, this isn't complex. The league has gone way over to great long range shooters, and Gordon is one of the best of those. Stuckey/Bynum put enormous pressure on defenses because of their superior penetrating abilities. Gordon at the top, Tay or Daye in the corner, Monroe (ultimately he's the future) playing pick and roll BB and using his great passing ability to find the right shooter or cutter, or taking a very makeable mid-range shot. (BTW, to my eye, I think Monroe is a lock to be a great offensive option in this league. He really can pass, and it looks like he can shoot and knows how to play on offense. In time, as he gets stronger and gains experience, he should be truly outstanding at that end). By the way, another great attribute of Gordon, Tay and Daye, and also CV is that they are each great at making an intial move out as soon as the ball is passed to them, beating men flying at them trying to defend the 3, and moving past them a step or two to take and make open shots. They aren't merely stay at home shooters, like a lot of 3 pt specialists in this league.

And since Tay and Daye each have point forward or point shooting guard capabilities, the offense can really flourish playing off them as well. Tay, Daye and Monroe - any of these guys, put a lot of pressure on defenses.

We're talking about a team that should, in time, have great spacing.

So - Leave Mr. Stuckey alone!!!! Just find some big men who can really move and defend and rebound to supplement and compliment Monroe and the core guys we've put together.

I know you like to list some "interesting" line-ups, but Ben Gordon should never be considered for the PG position. T-Mac has more in common with a PG than Gordon. Oliver Miller is a better option at PG than Ben Gordon.

I think you got to keep CG on the bench at least until he can prove some sort of consistency (aside from continually sucking). If his shot is falling you might get some more things from him and if it isn't you sit him. You can get away with playing a bad defender, but he is an abomination.

He will have some sort of injury by October 6th.

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Looks like I was off by 2 days. I'm so stupid!!!

Charlie Villanueva strained his hamstring in the second half and is day-to-day.

As something of a statistical geek I was trying to read up on APBRmetrics (Sabermetrics for basketball) and I stumbled upon some statistics for our 20 most utilized 5-man units last season and thought of this thread.

Since I'm pretty new to this (an understatement) I don't really know what to make out of this nor how statistically significant it is. Statistics rarely show the whole reality and obv not in this case either but it might be of some use to someone or just fun reading. With only 304.6 minutes for the most common unit it's guaranteed to be effected by who they played, when they played, where they played etc so I wouldn't base my life savings on it. If it is biased or just useless stats, what did I care? I took a look at it anyway but I limited my fantastic study arbitrarily to the four most utilized units. (there is a big drop off to number five) Number for played only 138.5 minutes which feels a bit shaky.

Stuckey-Rip-Tay-JJ-BB was by far our most common unit and it actually showed a positive +/- and a, for the 09/10 Pistons top 4 units, decent Win% with 45.0.

However, Chucky-Stuckey-JJ-JMax-BB actually had both a positive +/- and a positive Win%. (Those guys played during the 5-game win streak, right?) Speaks in favor of the guys here who wants to see Stuckey next to a combo-/pointguard. As Brap (I think) pointed out in some thread, McHale also mentioned this during the Heat game. Actually almost every unit with Joggin' Rodney at the 2 has pretty decent Win% and positive +/-.

Our second most utilized unit Bynum-Rip-Tay-JJ-JMax was far worse but they played at the end, didn't they? Nothing to play for except a worse lottery percentage probably hurts a unit powered by two veterans like Rip and Tay more than the usual so I'm not drawing any real conclusions here. They also lacked our best player according to the Floor Time Stats - Wallace.

Stuckey-Gordon-JJ-CAS-JMax, well they lost but not as hard as the Bynum crew. Dunno really what to say more, but they were the third most utilized unit.

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There is also something called Floor Time Stats for the individual players. I just took a quick look at it and came up with the following:

A quick look shows that wallace had the highest win% and the best +/-. The offense wasn't hurt by his presents in the paint (1.07 Off with the best being 1.08) and defense was at its best. He also had by far the best Net48.

Bynum had the worst stats in both +/- and Win% and if we exclude Summers and Wilcox because of their minutes, also in Net48.
nd the d seemed to be the worst with him, the O ok.

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Stats used:

+/- = net points (+/-) for the team while the player was on the floor.
Off/Def = the points per possession while the player is on court.
Net48 = the team net points per 48 minutes of playing time for the player.
Win% = the winning percentage for the player based on Wins versus Losses.

Edit: Wow, maybe should have reread that before posting but it's 4.09AM here now so take it for what it is. And who it's written by.

As something of a statistical geek I was trying to read up on APBRmetrics (Sabermetrics for basketball) and I stumbled upon some statistics for our 20 most utilized 5-man units last season and thought of this thread.

Since I'm pretty new to this (an understatement) I don't really know what to make out of this nor how statistically significant it is. Statistics rarely show the whole reality and obv not in this case either but it might be of some use to someone or just fun reading. With only 304.6 minutes for the most common unit it's guaranteed to be effected by who they played, when they played, where they played etc so I wouldn't base my life savings on it. If it is biased or just useless stats, what did I care? I took a look at it anyway but I limited my fantastic study arbitrarily to the four most utilized units. (there is a big drop off to number five) Number for played only 138.5 minutes which feels a bit shaky.

Stuckey-Rip-Tay-JJ-BB was by far our most common unit and it actually showed a positive +/- and a, for the 09/10 Pistons top 4 units, decent Win% with 45.0.

However, Chucky-Stuckey-JJ-JMax-BB actually had both a positive +/- and a positive Win%. (Those guys played during the 5-game win streak, right?) Speaks in favor of the guys here who wants to see Stuckey next to a combo-/pointguard. As Brap (I think) pointed out in some thread, McHale also mentioned this during the Heat game. Actually almost every unit with Joggin' Rodney at the 2 has pretty decent Win% and positive +/-.

Our second most utilized unit Bynum-Rip-Tay-JJ-JMax was far worse but they played at the end, didn't they? Nothing to play for except a worse lottery percentage probably hurts a unit powered by two veterans like Rip and Tay more than the usual so I'm not drawing any real conclusions here. They also lacked our best player according to the Floor Time Stats - Wallace.

Stuckey-Gordon-JJ-CAS-JMax, well they lost but not as hard as the Bynum crew. Dunno really what to say more, but they were the third most utilized unit.

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There is also something called Floor Time Stats for the individual players. I just took a quick look at it and came up with the following:

A quick look shows that wallace had the highest win% and the best +/-. The offense wasn't hurt by his presents in the paint (1.07 Off with the best being 1.08) and defense was at its best. He also had by far the best Net48.

Bynum had the worst stats in both +/- and Win% and if we exclude Summers and Wilcox because of their minutes, also in Net48.
nd the d seemed to be the worst with him, the O ok.

-

Stats used:

+/- = net points (+/-) for the team while the player was on the floor.
Off/Def = the points per possession while the player is on court.
Net48 = the team net points per 48 minutes of playing time for the player.
Win% = the winning percentage for the player based on Wins versus Losses.

Edit: Wow, maybe should have reread that before posting but it's 4.09AM here now so take it for what it is. And who it's written by.

Stuckey plays 35 minutes per game, leaving just 13 minutes for Gordon to play point. Not excessive for him.

Daye plays more at shooting guard, where he is a mismatch problem for the other team.

Healthy players dressed: CV, Bynum

Rest of team: TMAC, plays as he can as knee fully heals. No pushing the time table. Diogu, unknown. Wilcox, unlikely. JJ, out most of season. White, coming back like in January. One of these players will be cut yet. Of these, Diogu might be the most important player for us, as we need more depth at the bigs position badly.

With setup, nobody can double up on Monroe if he moves near the basket, cause we just have too many shooters out there. And you can't play off Monroe either, cause he can shoot short jumpers just fine. So he can easily enough find ways to get to the basket.

Bench: Stuckey, Rip, TMAC, JMAX, Ben Wallace

If TMAC is reasonably healthy, this 2nd unit is a pretty darn good defensive one.

Bynum had 9 assists last game, and the team shot 52%, with a very good 3 pt% as well. I don't get why this wasn't a very good performance by him as the PG.

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Defense is part of the game too. Its not just me, I am going by what a lot of people wrote about the game. And a lot of what I saw last season - though I was giving Bynum the benefit of a doubt on his defense due to his ankle problems.

I am not trying to downplay the need for a point guard - any point guard, to help us organize our offensive attack. I am just pointing out we may have better options at guard than Bynum, and I believe we should explore these. If Gordon really can't play 13 minutes a game of backup point, with guys like Daye, Tay, and Monroe helping him with the ball handling chores, than we have to play Bynum. But if we don't have to play Bynum, we drop out a player who may not be all that great at defense, and may not really be a good enough point guard (making decisions at critical times for the team.)

Lets put it this way - if Gordon, Rip, and Tay, and lets say even TMAC need major minutes this year - whether guys like Daye or Summers get floor time might come down to a choice between Bynum playing or one of Summers or Daye. I will choose to go with a the bigger rotation, featuring Summers and Daye, rather than a small one featuring Bynum - if at all possible.

However, Chucky-Stuckey-JJ-JMax-BB actually had both a positive +/- and a positive Win%. (Those guys played during the 5-game win streak, right?) Speaks in favor of the guys here who wants to see Stuckey next to a combo-/pointguard.

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I told ya! I would love to anyone of our mass of SGs getting traded for a legit PG and or big. Right now, the only untradeable player for me is Daye, who should be starting at SG or SF. This kid is good, he can be a poor man's Kevin Durant. I'll talk about starting line ups once JoeD has cleaned up his roster mess at least a little bit. Right now, any starting 5 ist just ridiculous.

Defense is part of the game too. Its not just me, I am going by what a lot of people wrote about the game. And a lot of what I saw last season - though I was giving Bynum the benefit of a doubt on his defense due to his ankle problems.

I am not trying to downplay the need for a point guard - any point guard, to help us organize our offensive attack. I am just pointing out we may have better options at guard than Bynum, and I believe we should explore these. If Gordon really can't play 13 minutes a game of backup point, with guys like Daye, Tay, and Monroe helping him with the ball handling chores, than we have to play Bynum. But if we don't have to play Bynum, we drop out a player who may not be all that great at defense, and may not really be a good enough point guard (making decisions at critical times for the team.)

Lets put it this way - if Gordon, Rip, and Tay, and lets say even TMAC need major minutes this year - whether guys like Daye or Summers get floor time might come down to a choice between Bynum playing or one of Summers or Daye. I will choose to go with a the bigger rotation, featuring Summers and Daye, rather than a small one featuring Bynum - if at all possible.

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I don't know if I agree with you - but I will say, we're going to be sitting several guys this season who are or should be rotation players on good teams in the NBA. Someone is going to have to be disappointed.