Denying-History wrote:The jäger report ended up being a Soviet forgery in the eyes of Monsterous.

Monstrous has a complex mind capable of complex thoughts.

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Monstrous wrote:The EG trial reports may have been fabricated by the Brits, the later Jaeger report by the Soviets.

Wow Monstrous! Your really onto the allies. Maybe when you are not using speculation as evidence you can prove such.

« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »Joseph E. Davies

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

Denying-History wrote:The jäger report ended up being a Soviet forgery in the eyes of Monsterous.

Monstrous has a complex mind capable of complex thoughts.

< snip >

No, seriously, Monstrous once solved The Pellet Problem:

Didn't realize that Monsterous learned his argument style from the Kerplunk experiment. Codoh and metapedia must be breeding the well.

« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »Joseph E. Davies

Monstrous wrote:
Has anyone considered interpreting the text as that the SUSPECTS who "slipped through the cracks" ended up being roasted alive in cremation ovens?

You still deserve the above, Monstrous.
Were they roasted in the German Gulags?

since in this interview, Ferencz explicitly said that the rest were never tried, and that the interviewer notes that most Einsatzgruppen defendants escaped Justice, no.

The only thing we can consider from this is that a) Monstrous doesn't know English because a common English idiom slips right by his dumb head and b)Monstrous hasn't read the interview that he's quoting, because it doesn't help his case.

Ferencz prosecuted members of the Einsatzgruppen. "There were 3,000 members of these killing squads who did nothing but kill women and children for three straight years," he says. "These 3,000 men alone were responsible for almost 1 million murders. Do you know how many I brought indictments against? Twenty-two. The rest were never tried.

"I remember talking to Soviet officers," he adds. "And they were baffled. 'You know they're guilty,' they'd say. 'Why don't you just shoot them?' There was a lot of that kind of feeling in postwar Germany."

Strictly speaking, Ferencz was wrong in 2005 when he told a reporter that
1) the EGs "alone were responsible" for the 1 million murders in the East he cites
2) the commanders "did nothing but kill women and children for three straight years"
3) just 22 commanders were indicted in the NMT case (24 were indicted)
4) no one beyond the men tried by the NMT trial ever faced trial (e.g, 10 members of the Tilsit EK were tried in 1958 in the so-called Ulm Einsatzgruppen trial; we've discussed in this thread the trial of EK-9 commander Filbert, these later trials, and these)

Ferencz prosecuted members of the Einsatzgruppen. "There were 3,000 members of these killing squads who did nothing but kill women and children for three straight years," he says. "These 3,000 men alone were responsible for almost 1 million murders. Do you know how many I brought indictments against? Twenty-two. The rest were never tried.

"I remember talking to Soviet officers," he adds. "And they were baffled. 'You know they're guilty,' they'd say. 'Why don't you just shoot them?' There was a lot of that kind of feeling in postwar Germany."

Strictly speaking, Ferencz was wrong in 2005 when he told a reporter that
1) the EGs "alone were responsible" for the 1 million murders in the East he cites
2) the commanders "did nothing but kill women and children for three straight years"
3) just 22 commanders were indicted in the NMT case (24 were indicted)
4) no one beyond the men tried by the NMT trial ever faced trial (e.g, 10 members of the Tilsit EK were tried in 1958 in the so-called Ulm Einsatzgruppen trial; we've discussed in this thread the trial of EK-9 commander Filbert, these later trials, and these)

Re: the bit about the EG men never being tried, I think Ferencz meant to say were not tried by him or the USA. He's sort of right though. There was about a 10-11 year delay between the NMT and the Ulm trial. That can be attributed to the established policy of leniency towards Former Nazis by the West German government and there being no Hoax. Roberto mentioned elsewhere that the Ulm trial started purely by accident

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:The investigations leading to the Ulm Einsatzgruppen Trial, according to this page, started because a former SS-Oberführer, who in 1941 had been director of police in the Memel region and after the war had under false name conducted a refugee camp near Ulm until being dismissed when his identity became known, had brought in an action claiming his reinstatement into public service. When the press reported about this lawsuit, one reader recognized him and remembered that this man had played a major part in shootings of Jews at the beginning of the attack on the Soviet Union. One wonders if the Federal German justice system would ever have got moving had it not been for this coincidence.

That such a mass murderer was able to try and request his reinstatement into public service and avoid prosecution for 13 years speaks volume. Ferencz was right.

Ferencz prosecuted members of the Einsatzgruppen. "There were 3,000 members of these killing squads who did nothing but kill women and children for three straight years," he says. "These 3,000 men alone were responsible for almost 1 million murders. Do you know how many I brought indictments against? Twenty-two. The rest were never tried.

"I remember talking to Soviet officers," he adds. "And they were baffled. 'You know they're guilty,' they'd say. 'Why don't you just shoot them?' There was a lot of that kind of feeling in postwar Germany."

Strictly speaking, Ferencz was wrong in 2005 when he told a reporter that
1) the EGs "alone were responsible" for the 1 million murders in the East he cites
2) the commanders "did nothing but kill women and children for three straight years"
3) just 22 commanders were indicted in the NMT case (24 were indicted)
4) no one beyond the men tried by the NMT trial ever faced trial (e.g, 10 members of the Tilsit EK were tried in 1958 in the so-called Ulm Einsatzgruppen trial; we've discussed in this thread the trial of EK-9 commander Filbert, these later trials, and these)

Re: the bit about the EG men never being tried, I think Ferencz meant to say were not tried by him or the USA. He's sort of right though. There was about a 10-11 year delay between the NMT and the Ulm trial. That can be attributed to the established policy of leniency towards Former Nazis by the West German government and there being no Hoax. Roberto mentioned elsewhere that the Ulm trial started purely by accident

Except Ferencz said "never," not "after a 10-year delay." Strictly speaking. Although the Ulm trial had a quirky start, it led to a determined effort (below) to go after Nazi perpetrators who'd escaped justice.

Here is Alex Kay's rendition of impact of the Ulm trial, which is pretty standard fare.

NathanC wrote:

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:The investigations leading to the Ulm Einsatzgruppen Trial, according to this page, started because a former SS-Oberführer, who in 1941 had been director of police in the Memel region and after the war had under false name conducted a refugee camp near Ulm until being dismissed when his identity became known, had brought in an action claiming his reinstatement into public service. When the press reported about this lawsuit, one reader recognized him and remembered that this man had played a major part in shootings of Jews at the beginning of the attack on the Soviet Union. One wonders if the Federal German justice system would ever have got moving had it not been for this coincidence.

There are other cases IIRC of people being recognized and winding up in the criminal justice system. Filbert was identified by a whistle blower type.

NathanC wrote:That such a mass murderer was able to try and request his reinstatement into public service and avoid prosecution for 13 years speaks volume. Ferencz was right.

But Ferencz said "never" and "indicted." To be factual, a number of Einsatzgruppen leaders and members were tried in West German courts, which isn't the impression left by Ferencz.

So the UK was also involved! This has made Monstrous see things more clearly.

The EG trial forgers may not have worked with the Soviets. But with the UK!

So, with one fell stroke Monstrous has invalidated the argument of cooperation with the Soviets being unlikely!

It was the Western Allies who may have created the forged EG reports!

Occam's razor says it was Ferencz, not Delmer or the Brits, who done it. Means (custody of the "documents") + motive (Jew) + character (problematic).

So, Monstrous, who is it today?

It definitely wasn't the Brits, that's for sure. British intelligence was chock full of Antisemites like Victor Cavendish Bentick, who acknowledged that mass murders against the jews were occurring, but accused Jews of trying to "Stoke them up" and cast doubt on the veracity of sources for no reason other than that they were "Jewish in origin". Cavendish like most of British intelligence was clearly no "Friend of the Jews". Their wartime and postwar policies sure don't suggest that they could've forged anything: They severely restricted the immigration of Jews into the British mandate of Palestine, for example, for the sake of placating the Arabs. They did this to the extent of firing on refugee ships, and sending them back knowing full well it meant their deaths. They (And the Americans) also sabotaged an attempt by the Jewish agency to rescue Hungarian Jews, because the British didn't want these Rescued Jews to go to Palestine, and because it violated the Americans' policy of "Unconditional surrender".

Finally, some idiot on another thread pointed out the following reason why the British would not have "fabricated" evidence on behalf of Jews.

Dumbass wrote:You neglect to mention that Jewish groups like the Irgun and Stern gang were firing on the British at the time.

So, no. It was not the British. British intelligence was staffed by Antisemites, British Policy especially with regards to Mandate Palestine acted against Jewish interests and was intended to placate and win the support of the Arabs. They did not fake anything, as their policies and agendas show, and the attacks by Jewish terrorists would give them even less incentive to fake anything. Nope. Britain was not on the Jews' side, and there was no British hoax. Not even a nice try.

OK, so not the Brits. {!#%@} all. This sucks. 'Cuz I know the documents were fabricated. That's the key, it's the starting point for the whole thing. So who did it? Ferencz? Was it Ferencz? It could have been Ferencz, right, he was a Jew, you know? Rosie the Riveter? Charlie McCarthy or Mortimer Snerd? Ernie Pyle? ENIAC itself? The Jew Morgenthau?

NathanC wrote:
They (And the Americans) also sabotaged an attempt by the Jewish agency to rescue Hungarian Jews, because the British didn't want these Rescued Jews to go to Palestine, and because it violated the Americans' policy of "Unconditional surrender".

This would make an interesting topic on its own.

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

I think you mean "finally learned of" instead of "discovered." But there is no fabrication of documents in the episode. In fact, the key sentence reads, "The materials Szajkowski sent from Germany became YIVO’s RG 215, the 'Berlin Collection,' whose twenty-five linear feet contain fragmentary materials from a number of former Nazi ministries . . ."

Also, where does the thread say that the snitched documents were EG reports entered into evidence at NMT trial 9, your ostensible purpose in this discussion?

Monstrous wrote:So, yet another forgery producer!

Another dud.

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has not even mentioned the obvious culprits like the KGB!

Pray tell. Include dates for the KGB, like when it was founded.

Monstrous wrote:There may also be some that have evaded detection by Monstrous.

You've not identified and provided evidence for a single forged report yet. Not one.

Monstrous wrote:The point is that trying to discredit any particular forger, like the Soviet gambit here, is doomed to fail!

There is always a fallback!

Indeed. You keep falling back, don't you? And the list of names of people who didn't fabricate EG reports is endless as is your willingness to lie and misrepresent. Which absurd name will you toss out next?

Here's the deal. You've been shopping now for about a year and a half for evidence to support the claim you made in the OP. Without luck.

You call this shopping trip "research": let me break this to you gently - you have to do research before coming up with a claim.

What you've accomplished is to prove that you made a claim without suppport for it and that you will keep trying to find any shred of something that you might call support for your original lie. That's it.

You're like a blindfolded drunk throwing darts in a bar. Hoping that maybe one or two will hit the board. Only you're worse - you have yet to hit the board. It has to happen sometime, eh.

Look, I know - apparently you don't because you haven't hit this with an errant dart yet - that one EG defendant was struck by an Allied interrogator during pre-trial questioning. That's out there for you to find. Anything like this you finally do stumble on will be no use to you because of the massive volume of evidence for what the rest of us have told you. That evidence enables us to explain the real significance of instances like mistreatment of one prisoner.

Keep going, little fellow. The longer you go, the more new names and unrelated examples and misunderstood links you come up with, the longer you go dodging questions and ignoring evidence presented - the more comprehensively you prove you've been talking out your ass since writing the OP.

I think so. Monstrous took a powder to do more "research" on CODOH and Metapedia, Mary is busy trying to communicate with aliens and David is organizing a bake sale to come up with the 60.00 for Anglin to have his rally in Montana.

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

David and bake sales? Last time I checked he was trying to find holocaust related license plates.

« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »Joseph E. Davies

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Monstrous's forgery claims are not even 1/10 as clever as Mattogno's.

Well he's not even 1/10 as clever as David... So of course his forgery claim haven't been that smart. Next is probably going to announce a Bazillion connection to those awful forgeries and cite Rizoli as a source.

« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »Joseph E. Davies

They've been collectively unable to sustain any forgery claims that I'm aware of concerning important documents - and they use the worse than dubious tactic of pulling forgery claims out of their asses when "needed." Recall that in a truly cynical and disqualifying performance Monstrous wrote that there were but very few forgeries - then refused to identify the "suspect" documents.

I've decided to help with Monstrous's attempts to identify exactly who forged the Einsatzgruppen reports. To do that, I prepared a very simple venn diagram showing the claims of Deniers in General and Monstrous in particular, and the actual Wartime and Postwar Aims of the World War II victors and also West Germany. By showing how the agendas and policies of the victors interacted and intersected, the diagram should help Monstrous identify who had the motive and the most to gain by fabricating these documents.

Nah, I'm just pulling his leg. The Hoax never happened, and no one fabricated anything, as my very simple venn diagram shows.

NathanC wrote:I've decided to help with Monstrous's attempts to identify exactly who forged the Einsatzgruppen reports. To do that, I prepared a very simple venn diagram showing the claims of Deniers in General and Monstrous in particular, and the actual Wartime and Postwar Aims of the World War II victors and also West Germany. By showing how the agendas and policies of the victors interacted and intersected, the diagram should help Monstrous identify who had the motive and the most to gain by fabricating these documents.

Nah, I'm just pulling his leg. The Hoax never happened, and no one fabricated anything, as my very simple venn diagram shows.

Can't forget Stalin's own anti-Semitic attitudes, culminating in the repudiation of Israel and gearing up for one ginormous pogrom before he did the universe a favor and croaked.

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951