You also didn't really say anything, you just linked the graphs again. While on zor'lok you will almost nearly 100% of the time have the hunter on the attenuation platform because he can move while dpsing (ergo no lost dps) while the people on the MCed platform lose dps from either the MC itself or dpsing the MCed targets. On spirit kings, the same thing. The dispellers have to stop dps to dispel while the hunter can attack the skull add (if there is one) or the other boss if its up. You also have to look at the 30% boss spawns cause of the cleave/multi dotting it has. That fight is also movement intensive.

So you are saying BM hunters on single target are almost at the top. That is only true when you don't look at the whole picture. We're barely competing with the other dps because of movement. Their dps suffers while ours doesn't at all.

I flat out disagree with the statement that raidbots is bad, which is what you said in the quote I posted. I would agree with a statement that the majority of complaints raised by people looking at raidbots are bad, but thats the fault of the person who drew the conclusion, not the site itself.

Do you have any evidence to support the fact that movement is the only reason we compete? Even looking at the low movement normal equivalents of fights I'm still seeing BM near the top.

I flat out disagree with the statement that raidbots is bad, which is what you said in the quote I posted. I would agree with a statement that the majority of complaints raised by people looking at raidbots are bad, but thats the fault of the person who drew the conclusion, not the site itself.

Do you have any evidence to support the fact that movement is the only reason we compete? Even looking at the low movement normal equivalents of fights I'm still seeing BM near the top.

there is only 1 flat single target boss fight in heroic raiding this tier. So by your statement hunters can be close to the top on 1 fight. Every other fight at some point has mutiple adds (which hunters are not good at) or other various mechanics that allow hunters to "catch up" because other classes are doing something else.

I flat out disagree with the statement that raidbots is bad, which is what you said in the quote I posted. I would agree with a statement that the majority of complaints raised by people looking at raidbots are bad, but thats the fault of the person who drew the conclusion, not the site itself.

Do you have any evidence to support the fact that movement is the only reason we compete? Even looking at the low movement normal equivalents of fights I'm still seeing BM near the top.

Could you please link me the graphs that you are looking at then? I also never said that movement was the only reason we competed. If you even read my post you can see the other reasons for those 2 fights you linked.

Well, this kind of numbers just proves your specific case in your specific guild... You can be playing with bad players, or you could be exceptionaly good at your class and that doesnt represent any average

In my specific case i am ilvl 488, the average ilvl of the top dpsers in my guild is around 488-490 and i can only barely keep up on just a few fights...

Anything that has cleave fights i just don't see the recount anymore, and on some fights that is heavy single target dps i can break my keyboard in furious perfection rotation and its just mathematicaly impossible to reach them (as survival).
In fact the only thing i can realy keep up is on AOE and the odd part of a fight that has more movement than most.

I play survival simply because i just love the spec and the flow of the "rotation". I don't like BM at all, with the added problem that BM AOE is much weaker than SV so i always feel that i'm losing out on dps on certain ocasions if i go BM over SV (not mentioning the decreased fun part ofc).

All in all, i think that BM could get an AOE buff and SV a single target buff (perhaps a buff to the damage of black arrow similar to what happened with serpent sting)

Vizier is a high movement fight in both normal and heroic. And that is the biggest factor that contributes to the high hunter avg. Spirit kings, BM is high because other classes have to completely stop ALL attacks for the shields, whereas a hunter, who's 50%+ damage comes from his pet, can leave his pet on the boss with no penalty.

But still, even with ZERO penalties to movement, in movement heavy fights, we still can't out dps locks and mages. So like it's been said, those clases are op. No two ways about it. And alot of the op classes are getting nerfed in 5.2 which should bring them right around where we are atm. Hopefully things will be much more balanced then.

Oh and the top dps on tsulong N is an unholy dk doing 315k dps. QUICK nerf unholy. (It was a bug, but you get my point) Those typa logs get into raid bots and finger bang the avg. It does have it's uses for sure, but it shouldn't be treated as clear evidence for class balance arguments.

there is only 1 flat single target boss fight in heroic raiding this tier. So by your statement hunters can be close to the top on 1 fight. Every other fight at some point has mutiple adds (which hunters are not good at) or other various mechanics that allow hunters to "catch up" because other classes are doing something else.

I agree, but there is at least some evidence to support what I said. It's unfortunate that there aren't any low movement single target fights on heroic, I'd really love to see the data. All we really have to go by is normal logs for fights like Feng and Gara'jal.

Originally Posted by Saoron

Oh and the top dps on tsulong N is an unholy dk doing 315k dps. QUICK nerf unholy. (It was a bug, but you get my point) Those typa logs get into raid bots and finger bang the avg. It does have it's uses for sure, but it shouldn't be treated as clear evidence for class balance arguments.

They certainly do, if all you look at is overall average. This is why you take into account different measures/percentiles when looking at Raidbots. It can eliminate the outliers, you need to do that to get a better look at the whole picture.

Hunters are very mediocre in mop yes. Don't expect it to change until after progress is done of the last tier of xpack.

There wouldn't be so many bad links if raidbots removed the top100 setting and the total dps graph.
Looking at the top100 isn't even usefull to see the best players, it only shows the result of best possible conditions which don't reflect real raid circumstances (awesome crits, players without extra jobs, burst classes with guilds that kill a boss in 2min, dps padding, ...)

IMO, hunters are very strong because of the ability to DPS on the move and the overall simplicity of gameplay in SV and BM (didn't try MM, so can't tell if it's just as braindead as the other 2 specs). Those 2 things lower the skill-cap of the Hunter class to a point where every single individual automatically becomes rather good when playing hunter.

What this means is that in mediocre guilds consisting of both good players and baddies hunters will usually be at the top. In strong guilds, where people play their classes at their best (or close to that), hunters have no chance to compete with OP classes/specs. However, affliction locks will be severely nerfed in 5.2, so I see no problems there. And arcane's DPS is easily ruined by movement, so they can't be top in all fights and actually have to be quite good to pull out big numbers where movement is involved, so I see no problems there either.

As for the lack of cleave - every class in this game has some weak spot, that's part of the class system, just deal with it.

there is only 1 flat single target boss fight in heroic raiding this tier. So by your statement hunters can be close to the top on 1 fight. Every other fight at some point has mutiple adds (which hunters are not good at) or other various mechanics that allow hunters to "catch up" because other classes are doing something else.

Vizier, Blade Lord, Lei Shi (You don't cleave adds, pure single target), Sha (Till Heroic phase, and then hunters are praised for their AoE), Spirit Kings (The small times where there are multiple adds, again you should be bursting the low target down).

All these fights hunters stand a chance at competing in damage, assuming your raid is doing the fight the proper way.

Also, can we agree by now that nearly every post by Nemesis can be assumed to be void, ignorant, and flat out wrong? Tired of reading 100% negative posts all the time.

I agree, but there is at least some evidence to support what I said. It's unfortunate that there aren't any low movement single target fights on heroic, I'd really love to see the data. All we really have to go by is normal logs for fights like Feng and Gara'jal.

They certainly do, if all you look at is overall average. This is why you take into account different measures/percentiles when looking at Raidbots. It can eliminate the outliers, you need to do that to get a better look at the whole picture.

So you looked at normal ranked logs to draw your conclusion? Doesn't that seem pretty pointless if all the good players are doing heroic modes by now?

Originally Posted by Divinespeed

Vizier, Blade Lord, Lei Shi (You don't cleave adds, pure single target), Sha (Till Heroic phase, and then hunters are praised for their AoE), Spirit Kings (The small times where there are multiple adds, again you should be bursting the low target down).

All these fights hunters stand a chance at competing in damage, assuming your raid is doing the fight the proper way.

Also, can we agree by now that nearly every post by Nemesis can be assumed to be void, ignorant, and flat out wrong? Tired of reading 100% negative posts all the time.

Eh, he had a point with raidbots that I reiterated on.

You also have to take into account the movement for all your fights mentioned. You left that out.

Vizer is movement intensive because of attenuation in both the platform and the last phase and the MC platform loses dps over the attenuation platform which the hunter is usually on. Blade lord has some movement with the blade whirly and stacking up. Lei Shi has movement from get away and the people doing the stacks AND it has a phase that you can only dps with aoe. We can't really do anything, so during that phase we have our hand down our pants and Sha, don't even get me started. People have the gear to just ignore the adds and dps sha. While doing this you are moving a lot on the main platform and are moving every ~20 seconds on the add platform. It may be pure single target but movement is a huge factor. I already mentioned spirit kings in my previous post.

The movement and the single target-ness of the encounters (and aoe for sha) make them good encounters for hunters and very good encounters for OP affliction locks.

I have pretty good experience on all 16/16H fights (I'm 15/16H sha is going to die this week), so you know I know what I'm talking about.

IMO, hunters are very strong because of the ability to DPS on the move and the overall simplicity of gameplay in SV and BM (didn't try MM, so can't tell if it's just as braindead as the other 2 specs). Those 2 things lower the skill-cap of the Hunter class to a point where every single individual automatically becomes rather good when playing hunter.
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lol... BM opening has one of the most complex openings in the game... we are overflooded with buttons to press (even Ghostcrawler admits it) for a proper rotation and then you come along and say we have a braindead specs...

If we have a braindead rotation i wonder what you would call a mage rotation realy.

At this point in game, every class has a rather simplistic rotation or set of priority-based abilities to press with procs to watch (hello addons) and a resource system to watch (some not even that) a couple specs only going a little out of the way in that. Saying that hunter is braindead is just trying to prove a point with a distorted argument.

lol... BM opening has one of the most complex openings in the game... we are overflooded with buttons to press (even Ghostcrawler admits it) for a proper rotation and then you come along and say we have a braindead specs...

Not really, there's no proc or anything that makes our opening rotation EVER change which means you can imprint it and know it by heart, just using the right button sequence you don't even have to know which ability you press more or less. It might take a few tries to get but I would hardly say it is complex. If anything, SV's rotation is even more complex with the LNL proc that can proc when you're trying to get all your CDs on CD so you can use readiness.

I was checking 5.2 PTR patch notes and i didnt find anything on warlock nerfs, wich is (imho anyways) the most OP class atm (affliction in more fairness).

Was there an anouncement on this that i missed?

So a class Top the DPS meter...big deal...
Hunter don't top the DPS, big deal...

So when you see a class top the DPS and u want Blizz to nerf them to the ground...

Don't get me wrong, i used to play hunter before Blizzard decide not to even bother to fix the broken stuff found in PTR and kept ignoring...

But i don't see lock is over the top if compare to hunter...its not like hunter is 30k behind single target's fight.

However, if you are that far behind, it's most likely your play style.

Try to compare how many shots you do per fight (activity) to either LFR hunters or your guild's hunter. That alone will tell that are you're in a good/bad place...Topping DPS meter doesn't mean anything if another out geared you.

So a class Top the DPS meter...big deal...
Hunter don't top the DPS, big deal...

So when you see a class top the DPS and u want Blizz to nerf them to the ground...

Don't get me wrong, i used to play hunter before Blizzard decide not to even bother to fix the broken stuff found in PTR and kept ignoring...

But i don't see lock is over the top if compare to hunter...its not like hunter is 30k behind single target's fight.

However, if you are that far behind, it's most likely your play style.

Try to compare how many shots you do per fight (activity) to either LFR hunters or your guild's hunter. That alone will tell that are you're in a good/bad place...Topping DPS meter doesn't mean anything if another out geared you.

So you looked at normal ranked logs to draw your conclusion? Doesn't that seem pretty pointless if all the good players are doing heroic modes by now?

Eh, he had a point with raidbots that I reiterated on.

You also have to take into account the movement for all your fights mentioned. You left that out.

Vizer is movement intensive because of attenuation in both the platform and the last phase and the MC platform loses dps over the attenuation platform which the hunter is usually on. Blade lord has some movement with the blade whirly and stacking up. Lei Shi has movement from get away and the people doing the stacks AND it has a phase that you can only dps with aoe. We can't really do anything, so during that phase we have our hand down our pants and Sha, don't even get me started. People have the gear to just ignore the adds and dps sha. While doing this you are moving a lot on the main platform and are moving every ~20 seconds on the add platform. It may be pure single target but movement is a huge factor. I already mentioned spirit kings in my previous post.

The movement and the single target-ness of the encounters (and aoe for sha) make them good encounters for hunters and very good encounters for OP affliction locks.

I have pretty good experience on all 16/16H fights (I'm 15/16H sha is going to die this week), so you know I know what I'm talking about.

I don't get something...

How does the changes to hunter now where stacking up and movement fight does affect our DPS when we don't need to aspect change and no min range?

You can always run and still cast anything, and eventhough if you're low in focus, you can still cast Cobra while running...did i miss some mechanics that makes you loss dps other than you being MC, changing platform and Lei's hide?

Simple answer, two parts:
1. Hunters don't scale with gear as much as other classes do, so as everyone's ilvl increases, a hunter's dps increases less.
2. Hunters don't have a cleave (which I'm okay with, I don't want every class to be the same and we can do 100% dps while moving) but there are numerous encounters this tier that favor cleavers/multidotters, the latter of which we can do but not as well as lots of other classes.

Every class says that. I think the amount off classes that scale more are dps warriors and mages...all other classes scale about the same.

Unless you got something to back up that statement than please leave out useless lies.