A class action in the Supreme Court will look at whether NSW police wrongfully arrested and detained a number of teens due to a long standing glitch in the NSW Police computer system. Lawyers say hundreds more might also have been ‘kidnapped’ but NSW police have declined to reveal the full extent of the problem. Wendy Carlisle investigates.

In September the Supreme Court agreed to consider a class action brought in NSW against police for wrongfully arresting and locking up a number of young people most of them indigenous and disadvantaged.

Lawyers from Maurice Blackburn and the Public Interest Advocacy Centre and law believe hundreds of young people may have been unlawfully arrested because of outdated information on the state’s police computer system.

One of them, Einpwy Amom, was wrongfully arrested and detained three times in two weeks by the same police officer.

Mr Amom came to Australia as a refugee from war-torn Sudan with his mother and two siblings. In 2010 he was on bail, but his curfew had been lifted.

The ABC is prevented from reporting his original offence by the Children (Criminal Proceedings) Act 1987 (NSW), but it was not sufficiently serious for him to be sent to juvenile detention.

The day after his curfew was lifted in court, Mr Amom was in Blacktown with his cousins when he was approached by a detective, and later several other police officers.

‘They came up to me they were like, “Einpwy do you have any curfew?”,’ Mr Amom said.

‘We went to the police station and from there they typed up my name and everything and he checked it and in the computer it says you’ve got curfew.’

Mr Amom was sent downstairs to the police cell, and from there he was transferred to a juvenile detention centre overnight. His mother, Ashol Amom, had no idea where her son was.

The next morning he was brought before the court, where the judge promptly agreed that he did not have a curfew, and dismissed him.

This article represents part of a largerBackground Briefinginvestigation. Listen to Wendy Carlisle'sfull report on Sunday at 8.05 am or use the podcast links above after broadcast.

Six days later, he was back hanging out with his friends.

‘I was kicking back near the taxi rank again, the same police officer, one of them that was there that arrested me, he is like, “Einpwy what are you doing? You got curfew?” And I am saying no I don’t. And he said you do, and then boom, they arrested me again.’

He was taken back to the police station, charged and transferred to a Cobham juvenile detention centre overnight, and then brought before the court.

‘The second time when I went to court, the judge was a lady, she was like, “Why are you here? We’re sorry what happened, you shouldn’t even be here.” She even said sorry. I said it’s all right Your Honour, and I got out on bail,’ said Mr Amom.

A week later he was back at his usual hangout when a police officer approached him.

‘It was the same guy too, the same guy three times. And he was like “Einpwy what are you doing?” I was like f**k man, you know? I was angry and I knew the same routine what they were gonna do. And boom, they handcuffed me and [took me] to the police station, they searched me at the cells and then I went to Cobham again.’

This was the third wrongful arrest and imprisonment by police of Mr Amom in less than two weeks.

His mother could not understand why the police were repeatedly arresting and locking up her son.

Michelle Cohen, a senior solicitor from the Public Interest Advocacy Centre (PIAC), spoke with Ms Amom about her son’s case, which was referred to the PIAC by the Children’s Legal Service.

Ms Cohen had the job of explaining to Ms Amom how this terrible mistake had happened.

‘It’s really difficult to say it's because the computer systems are out of date and even though they're wrongly arrested the first time, they didn't think to correct the problem the second and third time so it kept on happening because of incorrect information,’ said Ms Cohen.

The most difficult part for the family to understand was how the same police officers could repeatedly arrest Mr Amom.

‘The second time when it happened he should have known that Einpwy wasn’t on bail or done some serious checks because he knew what had happened previously,’ said Ms Cohen.

Mr Amom’s repeated wrongful arrests have had a profound impact on the family. His mother believes race and colour have played a part in the incidents, while Mr Amom no longer feels safe in his community.

‘I feel like I'm not in a safe place, because when the police hate the people how can you stay and who will help you?'

Transcript

Wendy Carlisle: A class action in the New South Wales Supreme Court will look at whether police have wrongfully arrested and locked up a large number of young people because of a problem with the police computer system.

Tara El-Masri: Every time I was falsely incarcerated it was not ask me a question, it was, 'You're under arrest,' handcuffs straight away.

Wendy Carlisle: The arrests occurred because the police computer was not updating bail information from the courts. The stories that Background Briefing heard in the making of this program have a recurring theme; police harassment and apparent indifference to the impact of these wrongful arrests. And it has left a big group of young people furious and resentful of the police.

Tara El-Masri: I was very, very angry. I'm starving, I'm freezing, I haven't done nothing wrong, they are treating me like I'm a dog. Yes, I'm going to Juniperina, I'm going to get strip-searched, then I'm wasting my whole day the next day because I'm stuck in the court cells until 4 o'clock in the afternoon. So I wasn't incarcerated for just one day, it was literally two.

Wendy Carlisle: Many young people were repeatedly arrested and detained. Some as young as 13 found themselves cuffed and carted off in the middle of the night.

Reginald Simpson: There was at least three or four of them there and I asked could I grab my belongings and they just grabbed my hands and said, 'No, you can wait.'

Wendy Carlisle: Hello, and welcome to Background Briefing, I'm Wendy Carlisle. This week we're following the stories of teens who found themselves inside a police cell for the crime of being young and troublesome and from the wrong side of the tracks. The problems with the police computer system date back at least seven years. In 2010 $55 million was spent trying to fix the software problems which prevented data from the courts being uploaded into the system known as COPS or the Computer Operational Police System. But the problems weren't solved, and senior police would later warn that these problems exposed the force to significant civil claims, and police would be found wanting in the execution of their duty.

At the same time, the New South Wales ombudsman found that in a town in the north of the state, police had unlawfully arrested three Aboriginal youth within two weeks. 30 young people are currently signed up to the class action which was brought by the legal firm Maurice Blackburn and lawyers at the Public Interest Advocacy Centre or PIAC. PIAC's CEO Ed Santow says the real numbers have yet to be uncovered.

Edward Santow: We've got pretty solid information that it's happening to literally or it has happened to literally hundreds of people.

Wendy Carlisle: Those young people in the frame were, for want of a better description, the usual suspects.

Edward Santow: Around a third of the young people involved in the class action identify as Aboriginal, and a really significant proportion of the young people in the class are from non-English-speaking backgrounds. This problem tends not to affect your average middle-class kid.

Wendy Carlisle: Their offences were relatively minor and non-custodial, but because of the publication restrictions under the Children's Criminal Proceedings Act in New South Wales, Background Briefing is not permitted to name the offences that these individuals committed.

Ed Santow says the police response has been entirely out of proportion.

Edward Santow: If you look at the lead applicant in our class action, the original offence that he was charged with was riding on a train without a ticket. Ultimately he was then detained for breach of bail associated with that original offence. Now, you are never going to be detained for any length of time for simply riding on the train without a ticket.

Wendy Carlisle: For fare evasion.

Edward Santow: Yes, exactly. So there's a complete lack of proportion between what the underlying offence was alleged to be and I guess the approach taken by the police in enforcing bail conditions. And that's what we think is totally out of whack.

Wendy Carlisle: One such story is that of 13-year-old Reginald Simpson, an Aboriginal boy from Wagga Wagga in New South Wales. The recording you are about to hear is of Reginald Simpson being interviewed by his lawyers, and he has given his consent for it to be broadcast. In 2007 he went to visit his aunty in Cowra, and one night the police turned up looking for him and he hid under the bed. Police said he wasn't allowed to leave Wagga and that he had breached his bail.

Reginald Simpson: All of a sudden there was a bang at the door and then my Aunty Narelle, she told them that I was there, so she told me to get out from under the bed, which I did, and I walked to the door, and there was at least three or four of them there, and I asked could I grab my belongings and they just grabbed my hands and said, 'No, you can wait.'

Lawyer: Did they tell you why they were arresting you?

Reginald Simpson: I think they just said for breach of bail. Before they tried to put the handcuffs on me I asked could I get my belongings and they said no.

Lawyer: So when you got to Cowra where you still asking for your puffer and your shoes?

Reginald Simpson: Yes.

Lawyer: And what were they saying?

Reginald Simpson: They were just saying, 'You'll have to wait and we'll have to try to get on to someone…'

Wendy Carlisle: The police picked up Reginald Simpson, handcuffed him and put him in the paddy wagon and drove him to the Orange Police Station, another hour away. His mother was worried; he had few clothes, he was asthmatic, and he didn't have his puffer with him. The next morning his mother Regina called the Orange Police to find out where Reginald was.

Regina Simpson: I was talking to a police, she was a woman copper, and I asked, 'Can I speak to Reginald Simpson?' And she said, 'There's no one by the name of that here. I said, 'Look, he is only a kid, he's only 13.' And she went out the back and had a look and he was there.

Wendy Carlisle: At the time of his arrest, Reginald Simpson was on bail but he wasn't in breach of it. The COPS system had not recorded his changes.

A year later, 17-year-old Tara El-Masri was arrested and locked up at Revesby in Sydney. She was not on bail at the time. Again, this is an interview recorded with her lawyers and broadcast with her consent.

Tara El-Masri: Walking down the street, and then I was coming…the police were coming down this road and I'm on the other side, so they can see my face, so they automatically do a U-turn, they pull me over and then they jump out of the car. It's not even a question, it's, 'You're under arrest for breach of bail,' because they think I'm on bail. They do a CNI check it says, yes, she is on bail.

Wendy Carlisle: CNI stands for Central Names Index, which is in the COPS police database. It's the bible that police rely on for information on suspects.

Tara El-Masri: Like, I'm telling them, 'I'm not on bail, I swear,' I'm promising black and blue I'm not on bail. They're saying to me I'm lying, they say I'm under arrest. I go back to the police station, and I tell them, 'Can you please ring my mum because my mum has got the papers to prove that I'm not on bail.'

Wendy Carlisle: The police went around to see Tara's mother, Cheryl El-Masri.

Cheryl El-Masri: Yep, I remember that night so clearly. Three officers I think it was turned up at my door, I presented them with the bail papers, they looked at them, they looked at the date on the stamp, they looked at her bail conditions, they could see that the bail had been changed.

Wendy Carlisle: The police weren't persuaded.

Cheryl El-Masri: I was pointing out to them, how can she have breached it when it's not on here? How could she have breached it? It has been dealt with, it's been changed.

Wendy Carlisle: And what did they say to you when you pointed that out?

Cheryl El-Masri: They did not want to accept it.

Wendy Carlisle: What did they say though?

Cheryl El-Masri: Nothing, they just looked at it and said no, unacceptable.

Wendy Carlisle: 'Unacceptable'? What did that mean?

Cheryl El-Masri: To me it meant that a court document meant nothing to these police.

Wendy Carlisle: Tara spent the night in juvenile detention.

Cheryl El-Masri: What could I do? Really, what could I do? I had to show up at court the next day, and then it just happened all over again.

Wendy Carlisle: What do you mean?

Cheryl El-Masri: They provoked Tara, she got into trouble for swearing, and I'd be at court the next day because she'd been charged with…[phone rings]…hello?

Wendy Carlisle: Our interview had been interrupted by a phone call. Cheryl was about to tell me about another time that Tara was wrongfully arrested. On that occasion, Tara saw the police approach her while she was at the train station. She knew trouble was coming. She swore at the police and was cuffed and arrested for breach of bail. Cheryl picks up the thread:

Cheryl El-Masri: Tara always getting into trouble, she was a naughty girl. I mean, which kid can't be when they get around with the wrong kids, you know? When it came to the arrest for swearing and things like that, she was always provoked into it.

Wendy Carlisle: The way Tara remembers it, the police provoked her at the train station.

Tara El-Masri: I was on the train station and they come up to me and they're, like, 'You're under arrest.' And I'm saying to him, 'Uh-uh, I'm not under arrest, I'm not on bail.' And he's, like, 'Yes, you are.' And I'm saying, 'No, I'm fuckin not.' They're, like to me…you know what I mean, I'm arguing with them.

Lawyer: Right, so they approached you about the breach of bail…

Tara El-Masri: Yes, but it's not like they approached me, they just said, 'Ay, you're under arrest.'

Lawyer: And that's when the swearing occurred.

Tara El-Masri: Yes, and I'm saying, 'I'm not fucking under arrest, believe me,' you know what I mean. They're not going to believe you.

Lawyer: And you were swearing at him.

Tara El-Masri: I'm not swearing, I'm just saying, 'Look man, I'm not fucking on bail,' and I just kept saying 'fuckin', 'fuckin'…

Lawyer: Yes, protesting.

Tara El-Masri: Yes, like I'm protesting my rights. And every time I was falsely incarcerated it was not asking me a question, it was, 'You're under arrest,' handcuffed, straight away.

Wendy Carlisle: According to Tara's lawyers, this was the second of her unlawful arrests. The way Tara's mother Cheryl sees it, there's a kind of trench warfare between the police and the kids on the street. Cheryl says she has heard on other occasions the way the police speak to her daughter.

Cheryl El-Masri: You know, just things like, 'Why don't you just shut the fuck up and go home,' or…you know, she could be walking down the street here today and a police officer will be sitting out the front, maybe because we have problems in the area, and they will say to her, like they did quite a few months ago, 'Why don't you go back to Canterbury Road where you belong?'

Wendy Carlisle: The night police wrongfully arrested Tara she was taken in a police paddy wagon to the police station, and at 1am was transported to the juvenile detention centre.

Tara El-Masri: Like shorts and a shirt, and you're not allowed your shoes on, they take your shoes off in case you try and commit suicide. So now I'm freezing, like literally purple when you get out, because they put the air con on as well.

Tara’s friend: To give you fresh air, you know, through the back, yes.

Lawyer: Did you have a blanket?

Tara El-Masri: No.

Lawyer: Did you ask them? Did you tell them you were cold?

Tara El-Masri: Yes. They don't care.

Wendy Carlisle: By the time that the court found that Tara El-Masri wasn't on bail and was allowed to go, it was 4pm.

Tara El-Masri: I wish the cops that arrested me said sorry, because they made me feel like a gronk, like a big liar…

Lawyer: What's a gronk?

Tara El-Masri: Like…a gronk is like a dickhead…

Lawyer: I've never heard that before.

Tara El-Masri: They made me feel like an idiot, man, like in front of everyone, making me look like a bad person when I haven't even done anything wrong.

Lawyer: Who was there? Who witnessed you being arrested?

Tara El-Masri: The whole public.

Wendy Carlisle: By around 2009, more cases like Tara's were coming to the attention of the lawyers at the Public Interest Advocacy Centre. PIAC took a number of individual cases to court, and won damages on the basis of wrongful arrest and detention. As PIAC's CEO Ed Santow points out, a theme was emerging.

Edward Santow: The typical situation is something like this; you have a young person who is arrested for some kind of offence, usually a fairly minor offence. They will be given bail, and there may be a condition attached to that bail, and then that condition will expire over time. And that condition might be, you know, the particular individual is not allowed out in public after 8 o'clock in the evening.

Wendy Carlisle: So, a curfew?

Edward Santow: A curfew, exactly. That kid will be out at 9 o'clock in the evening, a police officer will see him or her and will say, 'You're in breach of your bail condition.' The young person will dispute this but the police officer will say, 'No, our IT records are being really, really clear on this, we have to arrest you.' And they will be detained until they can be brought before a court, and that can sometimes be overnight. Now, if you're a young person, any age, but especially if you are a young person, this can be the defining experience of your life in the worst possible way.

Wendy Carlisle: New South Wales police have declined to be interviewed by Background Briefing, citing legal reasons. We've also asked the police how many young people have been arrested and detained wrongfully. Police have declined to provide that information, again citing legal reasons.

Ed Santow hasn't had much luck either. According to his enquiries, the police say they don't collect that information.

Edward Santow: One would hope that the records that are kept by the police and the court system would be transparent and really accurate, but what we found so far is that it has been very, very hard to get a really accurate picture of the scope of the problem from those official sources.

Wendy Carlisle: One of the most incredible stories belongs to Einpwy Amom, who came to Australia as a refugee from war-torn Sudan with his mother and two siblings. In March 2010 Einpwy was just 14. One of the conditions originally attached to his bail had been a curfew, but it had been lifted and he was no longer on bail. And so Einpwy was hanging out with his friends near Blacktown railway station.

Einpwy Amom: I was at Blacktown with my cousins and that, chilling, just having a good time, kicking back, because I've got no curfew no more because I went to court the day before that, and I was just happy. My cousins say, you know, you're lucky…

Wendy Carlisle: Because you had your curfew lifted?

Einpwy Amom: Yes, no more curfew. And then from there I was kicking back for at least an hour or two. I went to the new 7-Eleven near the taxi rank, and then the next minute I seen a detective.

Wendy Carlisle: The detective asked Einpwy if he was on a curfew, and Einpwy said no. The detective left, and then some time later more police arrived.

Einpwy Amom: They came up to me and they were, like, 'Einpwy, you have any curfew?' And I was like, 'Nah.' And the detective just came and talked to me and that, and then from that they were like, 'All right, we're just going to do a quick check.' I was, like, 'Yes sure.' 'But you've got to come to the police station.' So I went to the police station, and then from there they tapped out my name, I gave them my name and my address, everything, and then from there he checked it, and then in the computer it says you've got curfew. And I was like, 'No, I don't,' and he was like, 'Yeah, you do.' I was angry but I was like, all right, whatever. He was, like, 'You have to go downstairs now.'

Wendy Carlisle: Einpwy was sent downstairs to the police cell, and from there he was transferred to a juvenile detention centre overnight. His mother Ashol had no idea where her son was. The next morning Einpwy was brought before the court, and the judge said, 'What are you doing here?'

Einpwy Amom: I got out the next day because when the judge, she was like, 'You don't have curfew, why are you here?' I was like, 'That's what I said to the same police officers.' They were like, 'All right,' and then I got out.

Wendy Carlisle: Six days later Einpwy was back hanging out with his friends.

Einpwy Amom: I was kicking back near the taxi rank again, the same police officer, one of them that was there that arrested me, he is like, 'Einpwy what are you doing? You got curfew.' And I was like, 'No I don't.' And they were like, 'Yeah, you do,' and then boom, they arrested me again.

Wendy Carlisle: Einpwy was taken back to the police station, charged and transferred to Cobham Juvenile Detention Centre overnight, and then brought before the court the next day.

Einpwy Amom: But this time when I went to court the judge was a lady, she was like, 'Why are you here? We're sorry about what happened, you shouldn't even be here.' She even said sorry, and I was like, 'Nah, it's all right Your Honour.'

Wendy Carlisle: One week later Einpwy was back at his usual hangout, and he saw a police officer approach him.

Einpwy Amom: And it was the same guy too, the same guy three times.

Wendy Carlisle: The same police officer?

Einpwy Amom: Yes, one of them, three times I've seen him. And then from there he was like, 'Einpwy, what are you doing?' I was, like, fuck man, you know, I was angry. And then I knew the same routine, what they were going to do, and then boom, they handcuffed me, went to the police station, they searched me at the cells, and then I went to Cobham again.

Wendy Carlisle: This was the third time Einpwy Amom had been arrested in less than two weeks. His mother Ashol was at her wits end, trying to understand why the police were repeatedly arresting and locking up her son.

Ashol Amom: Why he has arrest my son, but nobody can explain to me. And he asked the police, 'Why are you arresting me?' The police say, 'You are in the system, you have a bail.'

Wendy Carlisle: When Background Briefing went to talk to Ashol, we were accompanied by her lawyer Michelle Cohen, a senior solicitor from the Public Interest Advocacy Centre. At the time of Einpwy's arrest, PIAC and the law firm Maurice Blackburn were gathering cases for their class action. The children's legal service referred Einpwy to PIAC and it was then that Michelle Cohen spoke to Ashol.

Ashol Amom: I want to complain about that case, but I'm looking for somebody to help me. I say I can't leave him like that. And when Michelle, she called me, I'm very, very happy. When she talk she say, I want to help, I want to go to help you because Einpwy arrested for that and that, and I say, yes, it's very, very good I've got somebody to talk to me about that.

Wendy Carlisle: Michelle Cohen had the job of explaining to Ashol how this terrible mistake had happened.

Michelle Cohen: It's really difficult to say how. It's because the computer systems are out of date, and even though they wrongly arrested him the first time, they didn't think to correct the problem for the second and third time, so it kept on happening. So the incorrect information kept on sticking on the computer system.

Wendy Carlisle: The most difficult part to understand was how the same officers could repeatedly arrest Einpwy.

Michelle Cohen: That two of the times that he was arrested he knew the police officer, the same police officer both times. So that police officer should have been on notice from the first time when he was wrongly arrested that it was wrong and that he did the wrong thing. And the second time when it happened he should have known that Einpwy wasn't on bail or should have done some serious checks, because he knew what had happened previously.

Wendy Carlisle: Einpwy's repeated wrongful arrests have had a profound impact on the family.

Ashol Amom: I feel like I'm not in a safe place. And when the police hate the people, how can you stay and who can help you?

Wendy Carlisle: Do you think it's got anything to do with race and colour?

Ashol Amom: Yes, I think about that, I say the police did that for my son because we are a black people. If I'm not a black people he cannot do the kids like that.

Wendy Carlisle: You really believe that?

Ashol Amom: Yes, I believe that.

Wendy Carlisle: And what makes you believe that?

Ashol Amom: Because the way the police talk with the children, not just my son. I see a lot of young people, black people in Blacktown, the police, other police, I know him, the two police doesn't like black people, all the time shouting with the children in the front of Westpoint Shopping Centre.

Wendy Carlisle: What sorts of things do the police say to the black kids? What do they say, what sort of things, what language do they use? Do they call them names or…does Einpwy come home and tell you that?

Ashol Amom: He didn't tell me but I listen sometimes, he says, 'Oh fuckin black people,' and a lot of bad words, no good.

Wendy Carlisle: Einpwy Amom's case is one of the strongest in the class action. Compensation has yet to be determined. But Einpwy is not focused so much on money. He wants the public to know what happened.

Einpwy Amom: So like people can see what the police are doing, the wrong thing and that. But this will show the people in public that they do stuff up and that, you know.

Wendy Carlisle: And what do you hope to get out of it yourself?

Einpwy Amom: Just pride, just for black people pride so they can see not all of us are bad, that's what I just want, I just want respect, that's the main thing.

Wendy Carlisle: Two months after Einpwy's nightmare, senior New South Wales police were expressing alarm about the long-standing problem with the COPS computer. The software was over 20 years old, and $55 million have been poured into an upgrade, but it still wasn't working and there was user error as well. It wasn't just bail information that was unreliable but AVOs, fines, court orders, and warrants. In May 2010 Chief Superintendent of Police Prosecutions Tony Trichter endorsed a scathing email to his commanders which warned that this issue went to the very core of how the state's 16,000 police did their job. The emails were released under Freedom of Information to Fairfax media.

Email excerpt: Obviously this represents an enormous corporate risk where we will be confronted by claims for unlawful arrest and malicious prosecution.

Wendy Carlisle: 12 months later, the computers strike again. 17-year-old Billal El Chahrouk was picked up by police while he was walking down a Sydney street after 8 o'clock. He was on his way to his girlfriend's house. Background Briefing has obtained recordings of the original interviews PIAC lawyers conducted with Billal. Billal El Chahrouk has given his consent for these to be broadcast.

Billal El Chahrouk: They walked over to the window, they knocked on the window and they told me to jump out of the car. I'm like, 'Why do you want me to jump out of the car for, what have I done?' I was joking, I was having a laugh. And then they said, 'You've breached your bail, you've breached your curfew, you have an 8 o'clock curfew.' I was arguing with them, 'What curfew? I don't have a curfew.'

Wendy Carlisle: The police checked the system and it said that Billal El Chahrouk was under a curfew. Billal El Chahrouk explains that the Ryde police had picked him up for the same thing the previous week and then they had realised their mistake.

Billal El Chahrouk: 'Why are you doing this for? Call up Ryde police, you can confirm it with them.' I just kept arguing with them, 'I don't have a curfew, don't have a curfew. This same thing happened.' I was telling them, 'I've got a job, I just started a new job, this can't happen.' They said they don't care.

Wendy Carlisle: Billal El Chahrouk had just started a new job, and when he got to Cabramatta Police Station they put him in the cells and then transferred him to the Reiby Juvenile Justice Centre overnight. This was the first time Billal El Chahrouk had ever been placed in detention.

Lawyer: So you got to Reiby. Do you remember what happened when you got to Reiby? Usually they do some kind of check-in procedure.

Billal El Chahrouk Yes, one of the guys, he searched me, one of the guys there, and I explained to him what happened…

Lawyer: This was one of the corrections officers?

Billal El Chahrouk Yes, and he goes, 'It's bullshit, they've been doing it to a lot of other people as well, you're not the first.'

Billal El Chahrouk He said that…he printed off this piece of paper for me and said, 'Next time the police pull you up and they say that you have a curfew, you give them this paper.' It was a paper that said…it was a court paper that said the curfew got deleted from the system this time.

Lawyer: So he was 100% sure that you didn't have a curfew? He was just like, 'Take this piece of paper with you, this is…'

Billal El Chahrouk: Yep.

Lawyer: Was he apologetic? What was his attitude?

Billal El Chahrouk : It was nice, he was apologetic, yeah. He was talking about how ridiculous the police system is…

Lawyer: Oh really?

Billal El Chahrouk : He was saying there had been stuff ups in the past with it.

Wendy Carlisle: The judge found that Billal El Chahrouk had not breached his bail.

Billal El Chahrouk : I had to wait until 12:30 or 1 o'clock or something, and then my mum was outside the court, and then I went outside, I called my boss and he said, 'Don't worry about coming in.' I said, 'Can I explain?' He said, 'You don't have to explain anything, don't worry about coming.'

Wendy Carlisle: Billal El Chahrouk had been sacked.

Lawyer: And was this your first week at the job?

Billal El Chahrouk : It was my first week at the job, yes, that was probably my third or fourth day.

Lawyer: What kind of job was that? That was the tiling?

Billal El Chahrouk : That was the tiling, yes.

Lawyer: And you liked that job?

Billal El Chahrouk : It was a good job. I liked that job, I really liked that job. People I was working with were good. The worksite, it was like a fun atmosphere. It's a worksite, it's not the best place, but it was a good atmosphere, I liked it. And then I lost the job, and I was having arguments with my girlfriend, and everything just came down at once after that, and fuck it, I just felt like shit, I just…

Wendy Carlisle: As more cases like Billal El Chahrouk's came through PIAC's doors, the lawyers decided to take a different tack. Individual prosecutions weren't fixing the problem. In 2011 PIAC and lawyers Maurice Blackburn launched their class action in the New South Wales Supreme Court.

Edward Santow: We are bringing the class action because we've tried every other available option. So we have…as I said, we became aware of this problem many years ago. We've made a whole series of representations to both the former Labor state government and the current coalition state government to try and get a systemic solution to the problem. We assisted a number of young people individually to process their claims against the state, and the vast majority of those were very successful. But we just didn't see a systemic solution to the systemic problem.

Wendy Carlisle: You saw it repeat itself.

Edward Santow: Absolutely. And so the last opportunity to assist all the young people who continue to be affected by it but also to send the message that this is completely unacceptable is to have this class action. So we would much prefer not to be running the class action, we would much prefer to reach some kind of informal settlement with the government. We have no desire to rack up legal costs for ourselves or for the state, but we haven't been able to achieve that systemic solution, so this is all that's left.

Wendy Carlisle: The consequences of wrongful arrest on already disaffected youth are obvious.

Edward Santow: The direct impact on that would be massive, but the indirect impact in terms of your fear of the police, your distrust of the police and perhaps other authority figures is really, really corrosive and dangerous.

Wendy Carlisle: Another case came to PIAC's attention, that of 15-year-old Sammy Sarraf. His bail conditions were that he attend school or TAFE, but then they were changed, allowing him instead to look for a job. Sammy's mother Katiana can't forget the day Sammy was arrested.

Katiana Sarraf: That day that he was falsely arrested, he was shocked, let alone…you know, they dragged him all the way in front of everybody handcuffed. I was devastated, I was really horrified.

Wendy Carlisle: It was May 2010, and Sammy was making his way to the job centre.

So Sammy, take me through what happened on that morning?

Sammy Sarraf: I was actually walking along here and I've seen an officer walk out of the Children's Court and he came up to me and asked me what I was up to. He was going to check on the radio to see if I had any warrants.

Wendy Carlisle: Did he ask you if you were in trouble or anything like that?

Sammy Sarraf: No, he asked me if I had any warrants out, and I told him I didn't. He has then told me he is going to conduct a CNI to make sure, and as he's done that he's asked me why I'm not at school or TAFE, and I then explained to him that the bail condition was actually changed a couple of months ago. He told me that on his system it still says that I still have to attend school or TAFE. He then told me that I'm under arrest and going to be taken back to the Parramatta Police Station.

Wendy Carlisle: Sammy's mother Katiana tried to explain to the police that Sammy's bail had been changed.

Katiana Sarraf: He was saying to the sergeant, 'I did not do nothing wrong, I did not breach,' and no one would listen to him, no one. I even went there and I told them because I had to go because he was a minor then, he was under 18, so I was there through each and every step of what's happening, and they wouldn't listen. They insisted, no, he did do something wrong, he should be under arrest.

Wendy Carlisle: At the police station, Sammy was searched.

Sammy Sarraf: Yes, I was then walked then taken into the fish tank and I was searched again.

Wendy Carlisle: So you were strip-searched, were you?

Sammy Sarraf: Yes, not completely, I still had some undies…they didn't take my undies off, they only took my shoes, my pants and my shirt off, and my socks. And then they've taken me back into the fish tank. And from there I wasn't even advised to contact a lawyer, I just really wanted to speak to my mum, and after I told my mum that, well, she sort of flipped out…

Wendy Carlisle: You did?

Sammy Sarraf: Yeah, me and my mum really. I tried to explain to her that I didn't think I did anything wrong…

Katiana Sarraf: He's telling me, 'Mum, I did not do nothing wrong, I'm not on bail for what they've got me, they've falsely arrested me.' And I'm saying to the sergeant, 'Please Sergeant, have a look.'

Wendy Carlisle: None of their pleadings had any effect. Sammy was brought before the court and the judge confirmed what Sammy and Katiana had been saying all along. His bail had been changed, he was allowed to look for work instead of attending school. But it wasn't over yet. Sammy was taken back down into the holding cells. It took the police five long hours to fix the paperwork, and Sammy wondered whether he was going to be freed at all.

Sammy Sarraf: Yes, actually it was crossing through my mind if they were going to release me or not because it did hit around 5:45, usually everyone is out by them, but I was actually the last person to leave. Yeah, I was quite scared of what was going to happen, yeah.

Wendy Carlisle: What did you think was going to happen? What were you scared of?

Sammy Sarraf: If they wanted to keep me and send me back to Cobham or to a juvenile justice centre.

Wendy Carlisle: New South Wales police have told Background Briefing that the computer system has now been fixed, and as of last weekend it is 'seamlessly updating information from the courts'. But Sammy's mother is reeling from the effect that a long-standing computer error has had on her son.

Katiana Sarraf: Oh wow, I was shocked. How can that be? How can that be? Why not, why isn't it updated? I'd like to know. As a mum, I'd like to know, why isn't that updated? No one is entitled to come and take someone and put them in a cell there and just leave them there. It's cruel, very cruel.

Credits

Comments (57)

Early Grayce :

13 Dec 2013 10:22:35am

I would be interested in hearing why the same police officer seemed to be harassing this guy. I would have thought that the officer would have known of the mistake after the first incidence and made sure he had the correct information before harassing the child a second time let alone the third.I would personally like to see police that break the law given triple penalties by the courts if they are convicted of any wrongdoing instead of receiving lighter sentences due to their "service to the community" as has happened in the past.

RollyW :

13 Dec 2013 11:42:39am

I agree with Early Grayce.

Officers with a responsibility to keep law and order have a duty to the law itself.Using their [i]de facto[i/]protected status to cover their unjustifable misbehaviour should be considered as an aggrivation of the offence and penalised accordingly.My own Police aquaintances have expressed this opinion on several occasions.

Branko :

15 Dec 2013 1:42:56pm

It is very instructive to be in a bar listening to the police discussions on these matters, the names they apply to especially African and aboriginal people are like the most racist names. They regard these people as beneath their contempt and fundamentally criminal regardless of their individual characteristics.

AJ :

15 Dec 2013 1:56:58pm

Early Grayce,I agree that every person in a seat of authority needs to be held accountable for his or her actions as do the rest of us, and that stiffer penalties be enforced for those who breach their fiduciary seats be enacted.It goes without saying that a law breached is a law broken and that there are consquences for such a breach.My concern is that persons in seats of authority- whether it be a Police Dpt., Parole Office, Correctional Facility et al., are not visible and frequently offences committed in and behind these seats donot come to light.Thus the culprit, the perpetrator escapes penalty, through either the absence of visibility and or through enacting unfair codes of practice/laws that are themselves corrupt or illegal, for example, Gag laws are illegal in Australia but corrupt people in a corrupt system enforce such laws that in reality affect the entire population. See The Queen Vs Wotton. Fortunately, this case enables the kids a voice which may be set down as case. At least their suffering and the gravity of injustice foisted upon them will account for something. But yes - who entered the date? Find and penalise thrice over. It cannot be allowed to pass.

Early Grayce :

16 Dec 2013 11:21:03am

In regard to this specific case I am left wondering why the police officer was not suspicious of his own information since he had arrested the boy but there was no new court date in the system.I know I would look at the dates and expect them to change to reflect the latest time I sent him to court.

LuckyCountry :

13 Dec 2013 10:45:17am

Seems from what has happened that this young guy has been persecuted & harassed by the same police officer who should have been fully aware that no curfew applied to the accused. I believe he is entitled to compensation for the wrongful imprisonment & the officer concerned should be disciplined.

Michael :

13 Dec 2013 10:32:10pm

I hope the victim of his crime is suing him for compensation and any payout goes to the true victim not a criminal who shouldn't get a dollar. But I doubt it because criminals have more rights than actual victims.

GM :

16 Dec 2013 9:01:08am

@enno - The problem with the COPS system is being understated here. I have had first hand experience and police *know* it is unreliable, yet they fail to double check the system. I don't find it "understandable" that a mistake is made the first time. A police officer should give the bailee the benefit of the doubt and look up the records at the court house and correct them before making an arrest. It's not as if the alleged bail offender was fleeing.

@leftnut - Wether he is allowed to live in Australia or not is irrelevant. You right to be free from persecution or unlawful denial of freedom must never be diluted by falsification of information by police.

Police act in ways that are arguably criminal all time time and they get away with it all the time. The unreliable COPS system is a perfect veil to engage in unlawful acts and chalk it off to a "glitch". What's sickening is that someone has had to take this to a class action after the issue was identified many years ago for a "fix" to be looked at. Whoever is at the top of this needs some serious reprimand for letting this continue.

AussieRoadster ®:

Moshe Arena :

13 Dec 2013 12:23:35pm

even if the police officer wasn't in the court, he should have asked the right questions any 'intelligent' people would do. he probably was using the 'system glitch' to harrass the boy on 'other' grounds.

Aussie Roadster :

13 Dec 2013 12:53:52pm

Then at the same time, we keep hearing people being let off constantly by judges.

So we could possibly have a police officer constantly finding a person frequently flaunting his bail conditions (confirmed via the police computer). He arrests him & passes him off to child services & has no further part. Court or Police does not update the computer system.

Or we have a police officer that doesn't like this guy & has a personal vendetta.

Sunsets and long walks on the :

It doesn't matter whether or not the police officer was aware that he was not in breach of his bail for the purposes of a false imprisonment/wrongful arrest claim.

However, the fact that it happened more than once should in my opinion give rise to a claim for aggravated damages. State is going to pay a lot of money for this 'computer glitch'.

It gets to a point where administrative incompetence needs to be addressed in our country's police departments. It's out of control.

I feel concerned for the officer who has been targeted - more than likely he was acting on orders from higher up or he wasn't briefed adequately after the first wrongful arrest. I seriously doubt he did this maliciously.

Rob Yeldon :

13 Dec 2013 4:22:48pm

Sunsets and long walks on the ... There definitely are police out there who do maliciously harass people and will use any "system faults" to cover their tracks. I would guess that officer has a history with the lad in question who might not be as "innocent' as this story suggests

Hammer :

13 Dec 2013 3:57:38pm

Because at the moment there is no evidence that he is corrupt. May have been a number of reasons that he didn't know about the curfew, already mentioned above. To just jump to the conclusion that the office is corrupt is as bad as saying the offender is guilty without any evidence. If the system always showed the guy had a curfew, then the officer was doing his job. If he knew that the curfew was not valid then he was harassing the guy. the article says that the system was not updated. That is not the officers fault, unless they can prove the he otherwise knew.

Another John :

Branko :

15 Dec 2013 1:46:14pm

There would be so many, naming one would unfairly single out that one. If you work with kids you quickly find out they are everywhere, in every station, mixed amongst the good cops and sometimes even in charge of them. When people are in more fear of the police than they are of criminals then there is something wrong. Perhaps we must look at police recruitment procedures and look at why they seem to attract people of a racist mentality.

bob :

concerned :

13 Dec 2013 12:51:07pm

Unfortunately police officers are treated as the law by the general public. In actual fact, many (not all) of the police force ended up going to their 10 month police training, because they had bad grades and didn't make it into uni.. (I know a few personally). So now we have these types of people.. running around, that think they are invincible.. Some of them, were school bullies.. and now they are walking around with a badge, and a gun.. I think any police office that makes a mistake out of stupidity, or any other reason, should be booted out of the force, and have charges laid against them personally. Watch how quickly the police will stop making "mistakes" then.

Fungal :

14 Dec 2013 11:55:37pm

@Concerned.... And after you start taking them to task, they will not trust the info they have on the computer and your family gets raped, murded, etc then you will probably blame the police again? Sounds like you have been in trouble with the law my friend... or just hate authority.

I am not saying that either party was innocent, but I see way too much 'police bashing' in some of the comments, how did the officer know that maybe he had committed another crime inbetween the arrests? FFS people really? I wonder why it is called common sense, as it does not appear too common with you.

I pitty the officer who has to rely on the 'glitch' information as he still has a job to do, if the compter says he is under curfew, I would like him to believe it... like if it said he was wanted as a murder suspect, would you want him arrested? err on the side of caution I believe it is...

carbon-based lifeform :

Stara :

13 Dec 2013 1:52:52pm

I don't know anything about courts and bails.. but why didn't they provide a letter to the boy stating that his curfew has been lifted? I'd be very worried that my only record is kept with a system that is totally out of date and glitchy, give me something in hard copy to hold onto.

Alpha :

The system between the Courts and Police often do not sync up. The initial arrest was understandable.

However, after the first release from custody the young person should request or receive a piece of paper showing his bail conditions. He could have kept that on his person.

The young person is not innocent. Young persons receive 3 youth cautions nowadays. After that they are charged. Bail conditions are only placed upon a young person when they are a recidivist offender or a heinous crime.

Early Grayce :

16 Dec 2013 10:57:40am

If the young person were a recidivist offender or charged with a heinous crime they would be unlikely to get bail at all.The fact this boy is on bail means he is not only a suspect not a criminal but also a suspect in a relatively minor matter.

Kennyboy :

13 Dec 2013 2:00:53pm

If it had been a rich kid being picked on like this all hell would of broken loose, but when its poor illiterates nobody gives a damn until someone with influence takes interest & some cops take advantage of this to pick on anyone they don't like!

phillip :

13 Dec 2013 4:09:35pm

Yes we see a great propoprtion of "rich kids" hanging out at taxi ranks and coming under the juvenile justice radar, in between times studying hard to be the next generation of Doctors, Lawyers, politicians and Teachers!!

AJ :

Kenny, yes true. I was framed by a corrupt police official. Prior to which I was harassed over an extended period of time leading up to this corrupt act. But the law is on the side of corruption.

Secondly, if this had happened in the State of Queensland, the kids would be gagged and not allowed recourse to even a voice.

Lastly, corruption is corruption. It is directed largely at lower economic classes and individuals as you rightly say. This is an attack on every person, every human right, and those responsible must be held accountable. As someone else said, these are the people protecting our communities? Not. We protect ourselves and each others.

sk :

13 Dec 2013 2:12:33pm

It is this type of brainless policing that is giving our police force the bad reputation. Individuals within the police force must have the right to challenge their system if they suspect it is faulty as is the case here. That is the difference between an effective and useless police force. What if the computer system is tampered with and a murderer gets release time and time again?

Max Gross :

AJ :

15 Dec 2013 12:05:19pm

Max Gross,Don't forget NSW' sister police state - the wonderfully oppressive dictatorship of Qld.These States with Victoria and SA preparing to follow suit ar the result of the abuse of NLP's abuse of power and absolute control over the masses.Now who voted for this abuse?

Alan :

13 Dec 2013 5:49:14pm

The problem is neither the police officer nor the crap computer system.Computer systems improve throughput of an existing working system or business. If a business or any system is supposed to be in order, then a computer can improve it.I had this problem on a corporate scale at a major government utility provider. The business had no management, yet they kept spending Millions of dollars on computers to get the business "right".Sort out the algorithm running the police department before blaming glitches or officers.

Eddie Jensz :

13 Dec 2013 6:12:50pm

Blaming the algorithm on the computer system is too easy an out for an officer who is clearly incompetent. He must have been present at the court if he was the arresting officer or if he wasn't it is encumbent upon him to keep abreast of the outcome for those people he has arrested. If the judge has dismissed the offence as "no offence" then this officer should have known. Computers are only as good as the people inputting the data but a paper trail is always available for a competent officer.

Early Grayce :

16 Dec 2013 11:17:40am

The real problem with these computer systems is the software disparity.A few years ago the S.A. Govt tried to rectify the problem and combine their 7 or eight different software ecosystems. Suffice to say they ended up failing at the task after spending millions. It was only last year that I found out the govt had cancelled my license without telling me because even though I had changed my address with the DMV during a registration renewal they couldn't get in touch with me while I was in the process of moving house to get an update on my disability status, a second letter sent out a week later would have made it to the right address. I was pulled over for having a suspended license thanks to the police automatic license plate check system within an hour of being in the DMV where they had not informed me of the issue while I was over 200Km from home and told that I could not drive any longer until I had sorted out the problem with the DMV and waited overnight for the system to update. I was driving home that afternoon and told the police as much to which they said that if they personally caught me driving again they would fine me so I asked them which way they were heading and got a good laugh out of them then drove out of the city a different way. Some police actually think for themselves and know when they are causing a person incredible hardship and act appropriately even if they are following correct procedure when they are causing the hardship.I would not be surprised if between the courts and the police there would be up to 4 completely different systems that have to update one another but have issues with validating that the software has updated and made the correct changes. This still does not excuse the officer involved in this article as he would have known that if the boy was sent to court again the conditions of his bail or at least the date on the system would have changed to reflect the most recent court date and should have been suspicious of his own information.

Michael :

13 Dec 2013 10:43:43pm

Solicitors again seeking money. What a grubby money greedy lot they are. Of course the solicitors will be well paid and their clients will be compensated. This time for poor criminals who have been arrested because someone didn't update a computer system. If only the money went to the original victims not the actual criminal. The poor criminals how upsetting it must have been for them and their families. No doubt next time they commit a crime it can also be used as an excuse so some lefty useless magistrate or judge can let them off.

Randy :

13 Dec 2013 11:51:09pm

It's pretty ordinary that so many people here are willing to sink the boot into some cop who was just doing his job. He doesn't go and check up on the full outcome of every person he picks up. He was probably laughing at this dumb kid who kept getting picked up for breaching curfew over and over again. There's nothing to suggest he was culpable at all but all the bleeding hearts here are ready to lynch him for infringing on this poor criminal's rights. But I guess... his crime was "not sufficiently serious for him to be sent to juvenile detention" so who cares, right? The guy was probably frolicking in the pastures picking daisies and chasing butterflies when the big bad policemen arrested him for jaywalking. Next time some ratbag kid is committing crime in your neighbourhood, I hope you say "oh well, it's not bad enough for juvy" and make him a sandwich.

Fungal :

15 Dec 2013 12:16:31am

@Citizen - So being a refugee, should he not be on his best behavior? He committed a crime firstly to get the bail conditions.

On TV did it say he knew the police officer? as the police officer obviously knew him from the quotes in the article, and maybe he suspected he had committed other crimes in between if he did keep abreast of his arrest, as he can not micro manage every person he has contact with.

So as someone else said, why did he not have something from the court, like paperwork to prevent this thing from happening?note: "A week later he was back at his usual hangout..." which is near the taxi rank... with his cousins, so we have a group of young people hanging out near a taxi rank in blacktown... Sorry, that is probably not the best place to hang out as a group of young people.

Love how people forget he is a criminal to start with and the officer was just going by what he is told. So next time an office gets a message to arrest someone for murder or rape, you want them to question the computer and not arrest them?

AJ :

15 Dec 2013 9:02:03pm

Randy, personally, I do not think it is a matter of sinking the boot into the said cop.We cannot pass judgment on this particular cop unless he has been wholly responsible and or is responsible for the data entry that lead to the action and events in question. Simultaneously, it is pointless covering one's tracks.It's easy to jump to conclusions when one is not fully informed.I have not passed judgement on thi particular cop.Everyone knows there are two sides to every story and that every cop is not a bad cop - just as every swan is not white.I've met some top cops- ethical, compassionate and just. They also donot join up to be slaughtered.However, what I am saying in a nutshell - where there is error, bring it to light and act ethically. Justly. No matter what the department, who the individual. We all have lessons to learn here. And yes, every human makes mistakes at some point. The trick is to learn by them and move on.

Matt Lyons :

14 Dec 2013 8:59:31pm

This makes me feel so angry. That police officer who arrested that kid 3 times either has problems in understanding the legal process and the mistakes that occured, or deliberately set out to victimise this person for his warped enjoyment. Either way, he should be suspended.

AJ :

17 Dec 2013 1:08:16pm

Matt Lyons,

The first step is an investigative step. Who did what, who said what, who entered what and who gave the order/s ('pulled the trigger') from which we can then finds answers to who what where when and why.Nothing is as it appears to be.

It is not necessarily a question of casting blame. Rather, it is a matter of fact-finding.

AJ :

15 Dec 2013 11:49:53am

As someone who has long endured wrongful arrest, I know only too well the cause of 'computer glitches'.Behind every operational computer is a human.If it was an alleged criminal behind a computer the cause/source would be located.Is there some reason why the human input cannot and will not be located on police computers inside the NSW Police Department?No, this was not a 'computer glitch'. It is the result of human input and the culprit's need addressing. Where is accountability?

Debs :

16 Dec 2013 1:13:08pm

I think we are only getting one side of the story here. What we are not hearing is what this young man's history is. Why are they hanging out at a taxi rank? That would turn people like myself away seeing a group of youth there. It sounds to me like the police knew this person and their record hence the consistent behaviour of arresting him.

Youth who cause trouble at all, even once, must understand that previous behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour.

I am speaking from the view of someone who sees these youth represent in a socially irresponsible way repeatedly. Sure, this person could be the one in a million who truly did nothing but we don't know his history so I would not be bagging the officers who are trying to keep our familes and theirs safe.

Just another perspective. I believe if one is trying to place blame, them one must have clean hands.

AJ :

17 Dec 2013 1:12:45pm

Debs,Yes, it is easy to cast judgement and to condemn when [we] are not in possession of al the facts. I, for one am far removed from this case and issue in more ways than one as I suspect others might be too.There are three sides to every penny.May truth and justice always win out in the lives of every human.

If all involved present the facts then there will be an answer as well as room for resolve.It is when corrupt people exercise corrupt intent and choose to deceive that truth is concealed.

Debs :

It's really easy to lay blame on someone in 'authority' and to criticise their behaviours BUT what about today's youth?

I see people arrested, get out on bail, breach it and it's repeated over and over. The same for curfew etc. Today's youth do not care about the law and believe they are untouchable for the most part.

Besides before we bag these professionals, we all need to look at our own professional behaviour, how many times do we say things that are inappropriate, that we say things not meaning them but when others hear they sound terrible?

What about our own prejudices?

WE are no different to the police that are being villified. They are human, they are doing their best and putting their lives on the line to keep us all safe.

Don't you think we need to take this with a grain of salt and look to the other side and see what role they played? Would seem to me that returning to the same place, where people should not be loitering in the first place, would be silly, knowing the police wouldstop you!

Stuart Mawbey :

LC :

18 Dec 2013 10:11:37am

The cop was just doing his job. How can cops be accused of "hating" the people when they're just doing their job and an error occurs. If there had been an error and crims had been let off back into the community, people wouldn't be making such a big deal. (Except maybe a few victim supporters). People wouldn't be saying that the cop/s need to be sacked.

LC :

18 Dec 2013 10:16:14am

Does anyone ask how the cop might have felt every time he found the same guy doing the same thing over and over again? (which to the extent of his knowledge was an offence). It must have been annoying for him, he might have felt he was wasting his time when he could have been doing something more important.