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Dear Max,I allways try to do the best I can, even, I have to admit that due to the past which left our market with a lot of poor quallity east block pianos, sometimes it is impossible to do anything because a fix often would exceed the value of the instrument itself. So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. It simply cannot be. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole. I admire your persistance but it has to have its limit. About communism we could talk, but I do not think we would agree on that metter. I would say only that if it wouldnt be so in the past, today you could simply order the tools you need from renner or any other supplyer and work with the highest standards...we wouldnt have this disscution today, maybe you would post on the theme Steinway or Fazioli....

So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole.

Dear Mariotto,cellulose can not be burned when we to screw pin into pinblock used T-bar. It's more of fantasy. You raised the question correctly profitability rehabilitation including repair of pins and price upright piano. In Uralsk, Kazakhstan old Soviet piano is from 50-100 U.S. dollars, and if you do quality repairs then the price will increase a hundredfold. Therefore the client will remain with the non-playing piano. So I use a shim's method. For example, I replaced the 10 pins in 3 octave. The piano will activity for a year or more. I got a little fee 10-15 U.S. dollars. И волки сыты и овцы целы("The wolves are fed and the sheep are safe"). Maybe you're right, say that this repair is a necessary measure with a minimal budget to repair the piano located in between "the hospital resuscitation and the Gates of paradise"P.S I Wait Your film about " Max's cardboard fix"Regards

So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole.

Dear Mariotto,cellulose can not be burned when we to screw pin into pinblock used T-bar. It's more of fantasy. You raised the question correctly profitability rehabilitation including repair of pins and price upright piano. In Uralsk, Kazakhstan old Soviet piano is from 50-100 U.S. dollars, and if you do quality repairs then the price will increase a hundredfold. Therefore the client will remain with the non-playing piano. So I use a shim's method. For example, I replaced the 10 pins in 3 octave. The piano will activity for a year or more. I got a little fee 10-15 U.S. dollars. И волки сыты и овцы целы("The wolves are fed and the sheep are safe"). Maybe you're right, say that this repair is a necessary measure with a minimal budget to repair the piano located in between "the hospital resuscitation and the Gates of paradise"P.S I Wait Your film about " Max's cardboard fix"Regards

I suggest that no one is bashing you for trying to repair tired pianos with very limited budgets and gaining very little money, but the advantage of this sort of forum is to use experience from others and to find new points of view on subjects we are yet treating daily with acceptable success.

as eventual other methods where not tested this say enough about your willingness to learn to do better with limited means.

There was a discussion about a product sold that was supposed to add new cellulose to wood also. I dont hear about it anymore those days.

Having a drink of vodka usually also repair most of the pianos

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole.

Dear Mariotto,cellulose can not be burned when we to screw pin into pinblock used T-bar. It's more of fantasy. You raised the question correctly profitability rehabilitation including repair of pins and price upright piano. In Uralsk, Kazakhstan old Soviet piano is from 50-100 U.S. dollars, and if you do quality repairs then the price will increase a hundredfold. Therefore the client will remain with the non-playing piano. So I use a shim's method. For example, I replaced the 10 pins in 3 octave. The piano will activity for a year or more. I got a little fee 10-15 U.S. dollars. И волки сыты и овцы целы("The wolves are fed and the sheep are safe"). Maybe you're right, say that this repair is a necessary measure with a minimal budget to repair the piano located in between "the hospital resuscitation and the Gates of paradise"P.S I Wait Your film about " Max's cardboard fix"Regards

Having a drink of vodka usually also repair most of the pianos

To me very sad to hear the words of "vodka" after it as you wrote, I'll be able to work miracles. I do not drink alcohol than before or after repair. Nevertheless, the proposed methods shim in our forum, sorry not effective, I know this from his own experiments. To be consistent, it is necessary to deny the absurdity of the idea with the irrefutable evidence and technical facts or be silent. I will admit the failure of this method, if the parties to lay out their arguments against it. While I have not heard criticism against the absolute technical insolvency corrugated cardboard shim

I am sure that Kamin did not want to insult you, rather to add a little bit of humor into disscution. I will not do a video with the repair, or even try it, I use wrest plank plugs or metal bushing, theye are available at retail at price of arround 2 EUR. I simply want the repairvto last more than a year...All the best!

I am sure that Kamin did not want to insult you, rather to add a little bit of humor into disscution. I will not do a video with the repair, or even try it, I use wrest plank plugs or metal bushing, theye are available at retail at price of arround 2 EUR. I simply want the repairvto last more than a year...All the best!

Alas metal shim 2 euro pieces are not available for my potential clients in the near future. I do not insist that you,Mariotto abandoned your proven practical methods. However, I am sorry that you did not experience the pleasure of cardboard shima. Sincerely,maxim_tuner

Brass foil may be way cheaper and probably better than the metal plugs. Then nothing lost if the string breaks (the wood shaves does not stand for very long and have to be changed with the string.

But indeed the block may not be cracked.

Wood plugs can be done, if you use a lot buying the (expensive) tool to make them may be an option. you need 2 sorts one for the pins with wood bushings, and one larger. To be made in real Delignit block. As some of those those drills are made in Tcheckia or Hungary you may have access to them may be at a better price than us

I still say a shim is a shim is a shim. If sandpaper can work, I don't see why corrugated cardboard can't.

If the block needs replaced, then nothing short of replacing it is the correct fix. If block replacement is not an option, choose the method that's attainable,gives adequately good results, and minimizes stress on the instrument and surrounding pins.

Sorry for the vodtka ! is not usually a big impeachment to work since you cut a hand or an arm.

Brass foil is probably yes, but that at the time,when we will screw into or to hammer is to drive the negative effects of contact with the pin-chopping. Iron + iron, I think it is wrong and most importantly for not longI take Your sorry Kamin, for the vodka made. However, I realized that it was a joke

I still say a shim is a shim is a shim. If sandpaper can work, I don't see why corrugated cardboard can't.

If the block needs replaced, then nothing short of replacing it is the correct fix. If block replacement is not an option, choose the method that's attainable,gives adequately good results, and minimizes stress on the instrument and surrounding pins.

Hi,Lorenit's wise words, born in your pin's experience pleasure for me to listen. Thank you so much! Regards

This topic has been done to death, why bother debating any further. Yes it works ... but is not the best way for any respected professional to go about it. Humpty Dumpty was put back together again with vinegar and brown paper, rather than an "Eggspert"

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Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdomand Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

This topic has been done to death, why bother debating any further. Yes it works ... but is not the best way for any respected professional to go about it. Humpty Dumpty was put back together again with vinegar and brown paper, rather than an "Eggspert"

Thank you Johnkie, descended down with thron and found that the right of existence of this method. This is not needed for me personally, but for hundreds of thousands of lay people in the world who are willing to correct their piano but they have not money, no skills. The topic will live , if we don't close the information gap, then at least try to involve ordinary laymen to the problem. Humpty Dumpty is a positive character, he, without any irony in a hurry to help anyone.

Yesterday, I used method of shim in the repair of landing places of the old Soviet piano "Заря"(Dawn) It was necessary to replace the 18 pins (part 3 octave), where they are located close to each other. The operation was successful. Operating time about 7 hours. A female client is an engineer-technologist. She said that in the russia manufacture of corrugated packaging is used glue. This is usually starch or calcium silicate. She understood from my words the entire installation process shima and believes that the adhesive in small quantities to help for hitch its strong fixation. She explained that the production of 2% use also used directly in the adhesive mass of cellulose. So our shim in contains made 5% starch or silicate glue

I did try before changing a block, but with more standard CA quality, I poured really enough and waited, then the pin was even moving more easily than before (same with letoff dowels) the CA was acting as a lube.

But I will certainly give a try on the super thin just to understand.

What does not pleases me is that anyone is just accepting that "it works" without giving any explanation on why and how it works, for how long, etc. when cured it is somehow hard, but the thickness may be very little.

For a wrestplank, we need resiliency, or the wrestplanks would be way more hard that they are. could a mix CA/crushed wood make the good level of torque and friction ? What I suspect is that it just allows the pin to grip a little better. As it is done on old pianos with old strings who does not loose their pitch easily and have well pronounced bends and high friction on the rest felt, the need for a strong pin hold is not so important, then anything will allow for a better situation, CA being the easier and the faster to use (so you get good money with it

Then what happens if the piano have to be repaired with oversize pins ? I suppose the block have to be changed.

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Was that Humty Dumpty the ancient father of all piano technicians ? To be honest I like those improvisations done in emergency on poor instruments, and I helped quite a few during holidays, with more or less only a tuning hammer and a screwdriver, but some are doing that in a more or less artistic way. For instance even if the was often having me laugh I liked the articles of Suzan Kline and some of her astute solutions for "junk pianos" .

But, having gained some good level of quality on really excellent instruments, that is very interesting to see how that can apply when by chance (!) I work on one of those older neglected pianos, some of them having some character and being eventual candidates for normal rebuilding. many of them having poorly setup action. (many brands where way better to produce decent belly work than keyboards and actions)

Edited by Kamin (06/01/1207:03 AM)

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

Excellent point Max. I was wondering about that myself. I'm guessing the glue in the cardboard helps?

The thin CA glue penetrates into the wood. Which swells the wood back towards it's original shape and then the glue hardens to support the restored shape.

Does the glue sitting between the tuning pin and the wood have long term effects?

Thank you, Dave B for your understanding of the issue. Yes, I believe that in our case, (a negligible amount of glue, or more precisely starch) increases the friction. But how is this really happening out there in the hole pinblock,? I don't know. In my method, the dry cardboard's glue when heated screwing pin, I think it is not capable of biggest help for the stiffness. But it does not give a negative effect,negative consequences I do not see it

I doubt that cured CA will have any long term effects. Cured CA is really just a hard plastic similar to acrylic/plexiglass/perspex.

Yes Mark R,i agree with you,i do not know the technical CHARACTERISTICS this miracle glue(CA). If you write "it is composed of acrylic". Then the gluing pin + a wood part , and I think the effect will be badly. Acrylic will reduce friction, like glass

Oversize pins can cause more problems if the block is already weak or cracking.

Oversize pins would not work is if pinblock damaged , and there are cracksYesterday I tuning a piano, "Ukraine" in 1982. Pins 8 pieces on this piano was replaced with 6.9 to 7.12. (District D-F#3) These pins were very professionally clogged more than 12 years ago. However, from the words of the client, Volodya after a year these pins have pitch off. Volodya with T-bar tuning it's every six months. I expressed my point of view on this matter and asked to read the topic about shim on our forum. He has a good command of German language and realized that in some cases can be used for corrugated shim. I reinstalled the 10 pins about 5:00hour, I hope that with the help of cardboard, it's will be for a long time to work. Volodya Kupitmann expresses its great appreciation to our forum, and especially Loren D, for a discussion of this issue. Now the Forum visited in my home town of UralskSincerely, maxim_tuner

Nice to see those very good books translated so widely. The "Forss" is one of the most complete (it is a collection there are 3 volumes I believe).It is giving more useful methods than the Reblitz, but , as it is also a training course support, the need for a professional helps is still evident. I believe the books have been made from the methodology of the piano technician course that Forss is driving.

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

I liked the articles of Suzan Kline and some of her astute solutions for "junk pianos" .

Is articles of Suzan Kline, which Max would read? Is she works with cardboard as Max?

Those where a series of articles in the PTG journal, with very nice sketches and illustrations.? I dont recall which years. Those are available from the PTJ office on CD /DVD. May be the organization could vote to send you a set of those CD's for free in the intention to help you have some readings and information.

I don't know if those articles which are scanned, could be translated easily by translating software. probably most of the text can be recognized by the OCR softwares, but what may be the final translation accuracy (?)

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

Quote//I believe the books have been made from the methodology of the piano technician course that Forss is driving.//Quote

Correct, there used to be a three years full time study to become pianotechnician in Norway and Sweden.

One young man from the Baltic states, Latvia in the near future would send me this book in Russian digital .He wrote that this book is appreciated and used piano technicians in the Baltics whole .I shall wait

Humpty Dumpty was put back together again with vinegar and brown paper, rather than an "Eggspert"

It's well, that all people of good will are trying to help me with tips on maintenance and tuning verticals. I am grateful to everyone without exception. I'm trying to be objective, but my clients are ordinary lay people who have a very bad financial situation. They are able to pay only small crumbs for my repairs. Therefore, first was a corrugated wrap under pin. These were only tests that have grown into recovery technology of hole pinblock . More than 10 years, I began to use it. I'm glad it works fine here in Kazakhstan. Now more and more adepts no alone is used in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and other Russian speaking countries. A "maxim_tuner" became a household word on the internet Russian-speaking environment . Meters-technicians from Moscow and St. Petersburg scares this name. Russian beginners tuners also. They do not know who to believe. Or a classic method of hammering on pin or to believe "mentally unhealthy man from Kazakhstan with cardboard in his hand." Of me wrote opponents in the Russian capital. Young wizards do not know what to do a repair hammer pin with a sledgehammer, or oversize pin put cardboard or pour the glue hole of pinblock, bronze shim,or make it's from wood veneer. I really do cares about the opinion of the International Forum on this issue and my image. I ask all to speak "for" and "against". Yours decision need in the whole world. Sincerely,maxim_tuner

Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard. Specially well adapted to piano repair and only availeable in Kahzackstan. you have yet understood that one have to write again and again and insist, then someday he will be considered as well educated professional. But also if you sell for a high price your work it put you in a better professional range automatically.

It works partly like that in the trade. For numerous reasons. the musician ear is appreciated however...

_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills