"The tactics the Forsaken use are identical to the tactics the Lich King used. Do you not remember? Sylvanas' val'kyr used to be Arthas' val'kyr. It is the exact same tactic. Did you not see this entire questing zone through to completion? Do you not know that these exact val'kyr have resurrected a dead Sylvanas not once, but twice? Just in case you weren't aware, she is a high elf, not a human. No, this is simply sloppy writing."

And if you paid attention to the lore, you'd know that Sylvanas is a special case because of the pact that bound the Val'kyr to her. They die when they resurrect her because they literally take her place in the afterlife. You can't claim it's the same as what they use on the rest of the Forsaken.

1) The plague will not allow Sylvanas to replenish her troops.
2) Varian will not allow her to just set up all nice and fancy.
3) You really want a crazy woman like Jaina having an excuse to unleash the focusing iris? Lets be honest here....she is only moments away from going psycho and dropping a massive bomb on anything and unleashing the kirin tor.
4) As people have said, WC2 Horde couldn't beat the dwarves inside Ironforge. The horde back then had the might of the legion behind them plus I do believe they were chaos orcs as well.
5) You think Vol Jin, Baine and even Lorethmar would allow her to just walk up to Ironforge with the entire idea of sparking a massive conflict? Those 3 leaders have pretty strong ties with their alliance counterparts.

There 5 reasons why Sylvanas would herald the extinction of the Forsaken if she attempted something so stupid.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." -Alexander Tytler

4) As people have said, WC2 Horde couldn't beat the dwarves inside Ironforge. The horde back then had the might of the legion behind them plus I do believe they were chaos orcs as well.

Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? The Legion had no involvement with the orcs beyond Sargeras tempting Gul'dan into opening the Dark Portal. Did you people even play WC? None of the orc campaigns ever had any Legion backing. Legion backing means having a ton of demons supplementing/commanding your forces like Ner'zhul/Kel'thuzad had in WC3, that's what the Legion backing someone looks like.

Shit, Legion interference is what caused the orcs to fail in WC2. Gul'dan deserted at a crucial moment when his forces were needed to go chase after the Tomb of Sargeras where he was killed by demons.

Give it time yeah. Every minute, every war, every death she grows in power. And if you noticed she sat this whole ride nearly out. And we even catch her shamelessly raising her BE allies. Its another Scourge.

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Originally Posted by Aquamonkey

Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? The Legion had no involvement with the orcs beyond Sargeras tempting Gul'dan into opening the Dark Portal. Did you people even play WC? None of the orc campaigns ever had any Legion backing. Legion backing means having a ton of demons supplementing/commanding your forces like Ner'zhul/Kel'thuzad in WC3, that's what the Legion backing someone looks like.

Shit, Legion interference is what caused the orcs to fail in WC2. Gul'dan deserted at a crucial moment to go chase after the Tomb of Sargeras where he was killed by demons.

Plus we saw in WoW what happens when the legion attacks IF....... All them player deaths yo.

"I just wanted them to hand us our award! But they were just talk!, talk!, talk!......" - Wrathion

Ironforge is essentially in a giant cave. If there is no way for the plague to get in, they will all suffocate eventually. They can't grow their own food, so they will starve. It's incredibly defensible, but it's also a tomb.

Did you even bothered to ever play the wc3 alliance and scourge campaign? Humanity was much stronger in Lorderaron and before the destruction that came with the burning legion, the plague cause major havok turn each city into undead factory. The Culling of Stratholme should even known by players that only bothered playing wow exclusively.

Humans are just not prepared for a plague, and the only human that did fight it was Arthas. Neither uther nor jaina did a single thing against the plague they were both utterly useless and helpless like your mentioned stupid npcs.

Whats needed is just the element of surprise, by the time Sylvanas declares war, the plague is allready spreaded and its too late. Even horde players can freely use that subway in stormwind that leads to iron forge and nothing can be done to stop them, some forsaken or goblins in disguise could act as harmles traders and bring their infected crops in there.

There is no intelligence, sword, magic, tanks, submarines, navy whatever to prevent that biological surprise attack, that is so devastating that the alliance can't recover from it.

Humans are very weak, but allowed to be spared their lifes for the sake of a story. >.>

Sylvannas' Valkyr are not NEARLY as good or effective at creating undead forces as the scourge was, not to mention she doesn't have a means to control all the undead she does raise like the lich king did. Furthermore, the Alliance was in a state of complacency when that happened, it was their first time facing such a threat as well. After WC3 they would likely be more careful about a potential plague, and even then, the Forsaken plague is VERY different. It's basically toxic ooze they can throw out of a catpult or spray around to contiminate the land. It doesn't turn people undead, it can't be used in subtle ways like the scourge plague to infect people and let them spread it before they turn.

And yes I did play WC 3. I'm wondering if you've played WoW if you think the forsaken 'plague' and the scourge 'plague' are similar in anything but name.

And you make it sound like it'd be so easy for a bunch of undead to secretly set up their plague in alliance lands.

Also, for the tram, horde players can use it freely because of GAME MECHANICS not lore, that's like saying Alliance can destroy Org easy by just sneaking bombs onto the zeppelin from STV to Org and dropping them off when it arrives. You DO realize that lore and game mechanics are very different things I hope. In lore a bunch of UNDEAD trying to sneak PLAGUE onto the tram would be no easy task.

Another thing. Sylvannas is very afraid in Tides of War that if Garrosh destroys Theramore, the Alliance will come crashing down on her. The Forsaken are by no means invincible, and like it or not she NEEDS the Horde as a deterrent to a full fledged Alliance invasion.

4) As people have said, WC2 Horde couldn't beat the dwarves inside Ironforge. The horde back then had the might of the legion behind them plus I do believe they were chaos orcs as well.

what novel? Played wacraft 2 alliance and horde campaign + beyond the dark portal, ironforge was never besieged or touched. And the legion was hardly involved with the exception of a few demons guarding gul'dan and cho'gall and black rock spire.
Anyways, the main army consisted of orcs there wasn't anywhere a big demon army to be seen, its not reign of chaos with full deployed demon armies + scourge. If the old horde in wc2 would have that, they wouldn't have lost. Instead Gul'dan was teared apart in the tomb of sargeras by demons. All they did is backslash on one of the most important orc leaders and killing him, in fact they helped the alliance that way.

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Originally Posted by Aquamonkey

Shit, Legion interference is what caused the orcs to fail in WC2. Gul'dan deserted at a crucial moment when his forces were needed to go chase after the Tomb of Sargeras where he was killed by demons.

while this is the official lore, in the game itself wc2 orc campaign scenario tomb of sargeras, the demons helped gul'dan and cho'gal and the tomb was under full control of the stormreaver and twilight hammer clan. Orgrimm Doomhammers army slayed both clans and their leaders among with their demons.
The whole ordeal weakened the orcs so much, that they lost the war with the alliance.

what novel? Played wacraft 2 alliance and horde campaign + beyond the dark portal, ironforge was never besieged or touched. And the legion was hardly involved with the exception of a few demons guarding gul'dan and cho'gall and black rock spire.
Anyways, the main army consisted of orcs there wasn't anywhere a big demon army to be seen, its not reign of chaos with full deployed demon armies + scourge. If the old horde in wc2 would have that, they wouldn't have lost. Instead Gul'dan was teared apart in the tomb of sargeras by demons. All they did is backslash on one of the most important orc leaders and killing him, in fact they helped the alliance that way.

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while this is the official lore, in the game itself wc2 orc campaign scenario tomb of sargeras, the demons helped gul'dan and cho'gal and the tomb was under full control of the stormreaver and twilight hammer clan. Orgrimm Doomhammers army slayed both clans and their leaders among with their demons. It was all retconned afterwards.

Canonically, I think the orcs sieged IF but but I don't think they ever put their full might into taking it either, their main goal was Lordaeron.

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Originally Posted by Tyrannica

what novel? Played wacraft 2 alliance and horde campaign + beyond the dark portal, ironforge was never besieged or touched. And the legion was hardly involved with the exception of a few demons guarding gul'dan and cho'gall and black rock spire.
Anyways, the main army consisted of orcs there wasn't anywhere a big demon army to be seen, its not reign of chaos with full deployed demon armies + scourge. If the old horde in wc2 would have that, they wouldn't have lost. Instead Gul'dan was teared apart in the tomb of sargeras by demons. All they did is backslash on one of the most important orc leaders and killing him, in fact they helped the alliance that way.

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while this is the official lore, in the game itself wc2 orc campaign scenario tomb of sargeras, the demons helped gul'dan and cho'gal and the tomb was under full control of the stormreaver and twilight hammer clan. Orgrimm Doomhammers army slayed both clans and their leaders among with their demons.
The whole ordeal weakened the orcs so much, that they lost the war with the alliance.

It was all retconned afterwards.

The orcs lost because Doomhammer decided it was more important to punish Gul'dans treachery than it was to stay in Lordaeron and take their assured victory, according to the novel if I remember correctly, though his defection might have left them without the man power to finish Lordaeron. But one also needs to keep in mind they only got to the gates of Lordaeron because of Perenolde's treachery, there was a major betrayal on both sides in the war. Win or lose, the war would have gone very differently if both betrayals were taken out.

Ironforge is essentially in a giant cave. If there is no way for the plague to get in, they will all suffocate eventually. They can't grow their own food, so they will starve. It's incredibly defensible, but it's also a tomb.

Just blocking the mountain passes is enough. I don't see food growing in the lands of eternal winter that is Dun Morogh and they also have no harbor for food and trade, i bet they rely heavy on trading and do so over the mountain passes. They will starve rather quickly.

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Originally Posted by Florena

The orcs lost because Doomhammer decided it was more important to punish Gul'dans treachery than it was to stay in Lordaeron and take their assured victory, according to the novel if I remember correctly, though his defection might have left them without the man power to finish Lordaeron. But one also needs to keep in mind they only got to the gates of Lordaeron because of Perenolde's treachery, there was a major betrayal on both sides in the war. Win or lose, the war would have gone very differently if both betrayals were taken out.

Wasn't his smartest decision, underestimated the humans more than Gul'dan.

Well, this was in wacraftII canon, too. Perenolde betrayed the alliance you had a campaign i think it was act III in the norther region to end his treachery. One of the few maps where you had a war amongst only humans, felt a bit like a civil war, humans vs humans.

Lore-wise, it's feasible she could take over more of the Eastern Kingdoms...but she would have to get past Khaz Modan. The Dwarves are very resilient, even moreso with the active help of the Gnomes in recent events. Even if the Forsaken managed to pump the plague inside Ironforge, the Gnomes could find a way to pump it out as they've done with the irradiation in Gnomeregan.

The quests in Silverpine (namely, Pyrewood) suggest that the Forsaken plague/Val'kyr cannot raise the dead of Dwarves and Night Elves, among other things. One of Godfrey's lackeys comments that the Alliance has gotten smarter, and sent in a special unit that the Forsaken couldn't turn into undead. The mobs there are (you guessed it!) Dwarves and Night Elves. This would pose a problem for the Forsaken when trying to take Khaz Modan. Most of their war efforts have included raising those they kill, adding them to the Forsaken War Machine. This wouldn't be able to be done in Khaz Modan, meaning they would either have to have more firepower, or create a new strain of plague that would turn Dwarves and other races into undead. Without either of those, they would lose more than they would create, thus making their forces considerably weaker.

Everything else? Yeah, they'd be able to take most of Stormwind's lands pretty easily, considering that most are farming lands. Duskwood would be an interesting place to see Forsaken, considering it's already a war zone for several races and groups: mindless undead, feral worgen, Gilnean worgen, and humans. The weapons, plague, and val'kyr in service of the Forsaken could do some major damage to human settlements. Not so much anything else beyond that, however. She would definitely need to get stronger forces, more undead, or allies...none of which she really has at the ready so far.

3 hints to surviving MMO-C forums:
1.) If you have an opinion, someone will say that it is wrong
2.) If you have a source, there will be people who refuse to believe it
3.) If you use logic, it will be largely ignored
Btw: *Tanaan, *Farahlon, *Arakkoa. Not that hard.

And yes I did play WC 3. I'm wondering if you've played WoW if you think the forsaken 'plague' and the scourge 'plague' are similar in anything but name.

And you make it sound like it'd be so easy for a bunch of undead to secretly set up their plague in alliance lands.

What makes you think, that the forsaken don't have access to the scourge plague AND their own plague? The scourge plague isn't that difficult to do? People had to eat infected crops to get turned to undeads, while the forsake plague is much more advanced and kills instantly and can be used via catapults. If anything they mastered the plague alltogether more than the scourge even. Just remember wrathgate didn't kill the forsaken the alliance AND horde with the plague? The lich king retreated, too.

No one here claimed a bunch of undead would smuggle the scourge version of the plague into the human realms. In WC3 human cultists did it. The forsaken will use spys too, spys usually cannot be recognized by the enemy. They can be human, gnome, dwarven anything....they can be mercaneries paid for this mission or just mind controlled, or they just want to be immortal and turned too. Or they are elven vampires in disguise pretending to be high elves.(icc wing)

Originally Posted by Florena

Also, for the tram, horde players can use it freely because of GAME MECHANICS not lore, that's like saying Alliance can destroy Org easy by just sneaking bombs onto the zeppelin from STV to Org and dropping them off when it arrives. You DO realize that lore and game mechanics are very different things I hope. In lore a bunch of UNDEAD trying to sneak PLAGUE onto the tram would be no easy task.

Game mechanics aside, what do you think is potentially more dangerous? Conservative weapons and military might or a very dangerous bio weapon? The plague is more potent than anything we have on the real world. We don't have a bio weapon that mass kills people and mass turns them to undead. And all this in a world of azeroth with very limited ways to deal with it. Jaina and the Kirin Tor were unable to do a single thing in wc3 either, why they would save the day out of the sudden? if anything its to late when they react and EK is turned. I found no magics in azeroth that will reverse undead condition.

Actually, its like the forsaken using nukes while the alliance doesn't have a single one. Anyone attacking the forsaken certainly is paying a high price. Also people have bad memory here and forget that Sylvanas was once the finest elven general of silvermoon. She know tactics and isn't easy to kill. Arthas had a much bigger army, the scourge behind him and still had trouble to kill her until the final battle. Later when she was turned she almost killed him, cause she trapped him. When it comes to wow, she is pretending to be weak, those underestimated usually prevail.

Originally Posted by Florena

Another thing. Sylvannas is very afraid in Tides of War that if Garrosh destroys Theramore, the Alliance will come crashing down on her. The Forsaken are by no means invincible, and like it or not she NEEDS the Horde as a deterrent to a full fledged Alliance invasion.

I said it many times, she isn't afraid of a single thing, she wasn't even afraid to commit suicide, she knows death all too well. She dealed with Arthas many times and he was afraid when he got trapped by her in frozen throne and only kel thuzad managed to save his sorry ass.

Furthermore she is pretending to be weak to buy more time for her plague research. She is also pretending she has no plague at all, if you ever played catas forsaken quests in silverspine and listened to the speech of both Garrosh and Sylvanas. There might be something in Gilneas, too when you listen to her while hidden in a church as worgen.

We will see what will happen with sylvanas, sad that the lore in wow is so stale and slow developing compared to the rts games. In the end metzen can make her all powerful like Kerrigan and the lichking or weak and forgotten. Just comes down of his writing. The potential to be extremely dangerous is there, on multiple point of views not just cause of the plague, but it plays a big factor, she knows why she puts so much time into this.

What makes you think, that the forsaken don't have access to the scourge plague AND their own plague? The scourge plague isn't that difficult to do? People had to eat infected crops to get turned to undeads, while the forsake plague is much more advanced and kills instantly and can be used via catapults. If anything they mastered the plague alltogether more than the scourge even. Just remember wrathgate didn't kill the forsaken the alliance AND horde with the plague? The lich king retreated, too.

No one here claimed a bunch of undead would smuggle the scourge version of the plague into the human realms. In WC3 human cultists did it. The forsaken will use spys too, spys usually cannot be recognized by the enemy. They can be human, gnome, dwarven anything....they can be mercaneries paid for this mission or just mind controlled, or they just want to be immortal and turned too. Or they are elven vampires in disguise pretending to be high elves.(icc wing)

Game mechanics aside, what do you think is potentially more dangerous? Conservative weapons and military might or a very dangerous bio weapon? The plague is more potent than anything we have on the real world. We don't have a bio weapon that mass kills people and mass turns them to undead. And all this in a world of azeroth with very limited ways to deal with it. Jaina and the Kirin Tor were unable to do a single thing in wc3 either, why they would save the day out of the sudden? if anything its to late when they react and EK is turned. I found no magics in azeroth that will reverse undead condition.

Actually, its like the forsaken using nukes while the alliance doesn't have a single one. Anyone attacking the forsaken certainly is paying a high price. Also people have bad memory here and forget that Sylvanas was once the finest elven general of silvermoon. She know tactics and isn't easy to kill. Arthas had a much bigger army, the scourge behind him and still had trouble to kill her until the final battle. Later when she was turned she almost killed him, cause she trapped him. When it comes to wow, she is pretending to be weak, those underestimated usually prevail.

I said it many times, she isn't afraid of a single thing, she wasn't even afraid to commit suicide, she knows death all too well. She dealed with Arthas many times and he was afraid when he got trapped by her in frozen throne and only kel thuzad managed to save his sorry ass.

Furthermore she is pretending to be weak to buy more time for her plague research. She is also pretending she has no plague at all, if you ever played catas forsaken quests in silverspine and listened to the speech of both Garrosh and Sylvanas. There might be something in Gilneas, too when you listen to her while hidden in a church as worgen.

We will see what will happen with sylvanas, sad that the lore in wow is so stale and slow developing compared to the rts games. In the end metzen can make her all powerful like Kerrigan and the lichking or weak and forgotten. Just comes down of his writing. The potential to be extremely dangerous is there, on multiple point of views not just cause of the plague, but it plays a big factor, she knows why she puts so much time into this.

Show me an instance of the Forsaken using a scourge plague that actually works. (Note, the actually works part is important) or some lore that positively indicates they have it. If there isn't such an example, then you're just speculating they MIGHT have it. You can say 'spies will do it' I can say 'SI 7 will catch the spies.'

Yes, the plague is very dangerous. So are the Alliance gunshps. So are dwarven siege tanks. Alliance can bomb Forsaken plague tanks, kill forsaken apothecaries trying to spray it around, it's not like there's nothing they can do to counter it.

You're just speculating that she's 'pretending' to be weak, the book seemed pretty convincing to me, in the way she tried to appeal to Lor'themar to back her up on opposing Garrosh's plan. You're pulling this 'she's pretending to be weak' thing out of your ass unless you can provide a lore quote that suggests she was faking it. The Forsaken are strong, but they're not as strong as Stormwind and Ironforge combined, let alone the entire Alliance. They have a powerful weapon in the plague, but it's not uncounterable, and sneaking enough of it into IF to destroy the city from within is going to require more than a few hired mercs.

She wasn't afraid to commit suicide...but then she did and went to hell essentially, and she describes her Forsaken as 'no longer being arrows in her quiver, but a bulwark against the infinte' or something like that in her short story. She committed suicide once but didn't go to the happy place she expected.

Show me an instance of the Forsaken using a scourge plague that actually works. (Note, the actually works part is important) or some lore that positively indicates they have it. If there isn't such an example, then you're just speculating they MIGHT have it. You can say 'spies will do it' I can say 'SI 7 will catch the spies.'

The Forsaken were developing their own New Plague so that it would kill Scourge and raise undead free from the LK's control. They never got the second part to work, so they settled on the kill-everything function (for now).

They are not above using original Plague if it suits their purposes. While they don't want new undead raised from using the original Plague to be controlled by the LK, Southern EK is quite a distance away from Northrend and his control would be weaker. Maybe weak enough for the Forsaken to liberate them. Even if the Forsaken aren't able to convert those new undead, using original Plague would still be advantageous for causing chaos within the Alliance populace.

The Forsaken were developing their own New Plague so that it would kill Scourge and raise undead free from the LK's control. They never got the second part to work, so they settled on the kill-everything function (for now).

They are not above using original Plague if it suits their purposes. While they don't want new undead raised from using the original Plague to be controlled by the LK, Southern EK is quite a distance away from Northrend and his control would be weaker. Maybe weak enough for the Forsaken to liberate them. Even if the Forsaken aren't able to convert those new undead, using original Plague would still be advantageous for causing chaos within the Alliance populace.

Still doesn't make smuggling it into IF or Stormwind a simple task. Could they do some damage? Yes, but I'm still not convinced the Forsaken could take IF, and getting to the tram to bypass IF's defenses would require them to go even further south. The scourge plague was able to work so well because they'd never encountered anything like it, I doubt Sylvanns could duplicate Mal'ganis' success.

Still doesn't make smuggling it into IF or Stormwind a simple task. Could they do some damage? Yes, but I'm still not convinced the Forsaken could take IF, and getting to the tram to bypass IF's defenses would require them to go even further south. The scourge plague was able to work so well because they'd never encountered anything like it, I doubt Sylvanns could duplicate Mal'ganis' success.

It wouldn't really work that well against IF anyway. Original Plague only turned humans into Scourge. It would just make dwarves ill (maybe kill them) and maybe pass it to their human buddies.

EDIT: I just remembered that only carion worms are immune to Plague. So it would still give an advantage against IF if enough of the dwarves were infected. They wouldn't turn completely undead, but a disease would spread like wildfire in the confined space if they didn't catch it early enough to quarantine the infected.

You're just speculating that she's 'pretending' to be weak, the book seemed pretty convincing to me, in the way she tried to appeal to Lor'themar to back her up on opposing Garrosh's plan. You're pulling this 'she's pretending to be weak' thing out of your ass unless you can provide a lore quote that suggests she was faking it.

As a Alliance biased fanboy, defending your alliance no matter what, you did not even play as a worgen? how could you have missed that one?

If that isn't proove for Sylvanas playing mind games with her allies and pretend to be weak and do all they want, you ignore reality.

I've done that quest. How do you make the leap from that quest to 'oh, Sylvannas must be PRETENDING to be nervous about Alliance retaliation in Tides of War?' The Worgen put her in a tight spot so she's desperate enough to disobey orders to win. That doesn't translate into 'she's powerful enough to take over all of EK.' All this video shows is that when push comes to shove, she'll do things her way rather than let Garrosh's orders risk a defeat.

I don't think Sylvannas and the Forsaken are 'weak' but there's a wide gap between 'weak' and 'able to take over whole continent on their own.'

The Forsaken were developing their own New Plague so that it would kill Scourge and raise undead free from the LK's control. They never got the second part to work, so they settled on the kill-everything function (for now).

They are not above using original Plague if it suits their purposes. While they don't want new undead raised from using the original Plague to be controlled by the LK, Southern EK is quite a distance away from Northrend and his control would be weaker. Maybe weak enough for the Forsaken to liberate them. Even if the Forsaken aren't able to convert those new undead, using original Plague would still be advantageous for causing chaos within the Alliance populace.

I fail to see where in this quest it says they are using the original plague.
The plague drums are the exact same color and style as all other forsaken new plague containers.

Last edited by Hitei; 2013-07-28 at 11:29 PM.

You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it. -Boubouille