Re: 2010 R11, R12, R13: SCY ages and relay age groups

Originally Posted by Muppet

but for everything else, the 30-34 age group (my new one) is MUCH faster than the 25-29 age group (my SCY age group for most of 2010).

Yes, theoretically, one should be slowing down as one ages. BUT look at the NQTs, Top Ten and Records - in almost all cases (let's throw out 2010 suit-aided SCY records for this argument), 30-34 and 35-39 age groups are faster than any other age group.

I'm not sure why you would exclude 2010, after all, everyone could use the suits. 25-29 was faster across the board than 30-34 in SCY.

But for the sake of following your idea, refer to 2007 and 2008 SCY seasons, the last two seasons before tech suits.

Let's take the top time and 10th place time to compare the board. That's 36 swims each year. 30-34 only took 8 of the 36 in 2008 and 4 out of 36 in 2007.

2008
200 free top time
400 im top time
50 breast 10th place
100 breast 10th place
200 breast 10th place
200 fly 10th place
1000 free 10th place
1650 free 10th place

2007
500 free top time
1000 free 10th place
1650 free 10th place
100 back top time

And honestly, the 1000 and 1650 times don't have the depth in competition to say that 10th place is a good comparison. So, based on the most recent few years of competition, 25-29 is clearly more competitive on a national scale (not necessarily AT Nationals, but all times posted). I would agree that local meets are going to be more populated by those in 30-34, but personally I would welcome additional people to swim against.

Originally Posted by jroddin

I agree with Skip that R54/55 should be defeated....the M18-24 age group has 9 events that don't even have 10 swimmers. Four of the events have 5 or less swimmers!!

I agree that AA should be reserved for #1. The depth isn't there to merit otherwise. I have to say, FINA is on point only recognizing 25+. The downside is there are obviously many rewarding people who got caught in an unlucky event where they wound up #2 or #3 to some former NCAA or higher level swimmer, but it's better than the flip side.

Re: 2010 R11, R12, R13: SCY ages and relay age groups

Originally Posted by gdanner

I have to say, FINA is on point only recognizing 25+.

I disagree strongly with this comment. I think USMS is completely correct to add the 18-24 age group for individual events, and to allow those swimmers to participate on relays. Yes, there are obviously professional or still-active swimmers in that age group. The same is true for the 25+ age groups, for that matter.

But they are outnumbered by those who have left mainstream swimming. We have an 18-yo swimmer in our group who just started at a college where there is no swim team. She wants to join masters and swim with us; why shouldn't she be able to compete in USMS events? And why shouldn't they have records? Same thing with someone who graduates from college and wants to work out with a local masters team (this is what I did, as a matter of fact.)

Sure, I guess some club can bring in a ringer and get a relay record. So what? I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Re: 2010 R11, R12, R13: SCY ages and relay age groups

I'm not sure why you would exclude 2010, after all, everyone could use the suits. 25-29 was faster across the board than 30-34 in SCY.
...
I have to say, FINA is on point only recognizing 25+

Did you not notice the Olympic Trials swim studs that made up some of these rankings? No the 25-29's are faster across the board!!! Take them out and I have a much better argument!

As for the comment about excluding the 18-24 year olds, I take great offense to this. This is exactly the kind of attitude that prompted my earlier comment that we younger ages are often neglected. USMS wants to grow to 100,000 members - and if you look at 18-24 and 25-29, those are two HUGE areas in which to grow. Sure, we'll pull in NCAA/Olympic Trials swimmers here and there, but the majority of the swimmers in these (or any) age groups are just average Joe and Janes looking for a way to get in shape and swim better/faster.

I am, granted, a rare case of swimmer who never swam USAS or in college - so masters was the only way I was able to swim during those ages. There are plenty of kids like me who aren't "good enough" to swim in an NCAA program or who are "good enough" but at school to study first, second and last. USMS provides these swimmers plenty of opportunities to swim, network, etc. Now entering my 13th year, I'm a very senior member of USMS.

Re: 2010 R11, R12, R13: SCY ages and relay age groups

Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson

I disagree strongly with this comment. I think USMS is completely correct to add the 18-24 age group for individual events, and to allow those swimmers to participate on relays. Yes, there are obviously professional or still-active swimmers in that age group. The same is true for the 25+ age groups, for that matter.

But they are outnumbered by those who have left mainstream swimming. We have an 18-yo swimmer in our group who just started at a college where there is no swim team. She wants to join masters and swim with us; why shouldn't she be able to compete in USMS events? And why shouldn't they have records? Same thing with someone who graduates from college and wants to work out with a local masters team (this is what I did, as a matter of fact.)

Sure, I guess some club can bring in a ringer and get a relay record. So what? I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Sorry, I gave the wrong impression with that short comment. I support their ability to swim within USMS 100%. It's just a shame for Top 10 purposes that there isn't more depth. Then maybe there would be a better argument for top 3 or top 5 getting AA status. That's all I really meant by that comment. I think there are many people deserving of AA status that probably don't get it. For many people it takes a little bit of luck.

Originally Posted by muppet

Did you not notice the Olympic Trials swim studs that made up some of these rankings? No the 25-29's are faster across the board!!! Take them out and I have a much better argument!

So you're saying if we remove the best swimmers from 25-29, then the 30-34 age group is faster? That logic is quite arbitrary.

But I'll play ball anyways, because that's not the case. There are at least 6 guys in the 30-34 bracket that made NCAA's or a faster meet. Kerekjarto, Gaspar, Bathazi, Werner, Scalise, Carlson. You can look up their times in college if you want, they were (and still are) nasty. There are a couple others that I probably don't recognize. The 50 free in 25-29 is stacked, but beyond that the spread of top talent between the two age groups is comparable.

...we younger ages are often neglected. USMS wants to grow to 100,000 members - and if you look at 18-24 and 25-29, those are two HUGE areas in which to grow.

I agree that there is plenty of room to grow and hope it happens. If you're not already on your LMSC board, all I can suggest is that you try to get involved. I don't know how it is with your LMSC, but I suspect many are in need of active volunteers.

Re: 2010 R11, R12, R13: SCY ages and relay age groups

Originally Posted by gdanner

Sorry, I gave the wrong impression with that short comment. I support their ability to swim within USMS 100%. It's just a shame for Top 10 purposes that there isn't more depth. Then maybe there would be a better argument for top 3 or top 5 getting AA status. That's all I really meant by that comment. I think there are many people deserving of AA status that probably don't get it. For many people it takes a little bit of luck.

Gotcha; makes sense. I'm not too big on the 3-5 AAs per event but I'll keep an open mind until I listen to arguments.

Originally Posted by gdanner

If you're not already on your LMSC board, all I can suggest is that you try to get involved. I don't know how it is with your LMSC, but I suspect many are in need of active volunteers.

Good advice indeed. And while I can see how Muppet's whining about his new age group might lead one to suspect that he allows others to do the heavy lifting, it isn't true in this case: he's a meet director and LMSC chair, among other things.

Re: 2010 R11, R12, R13: SCY ages and relay age groups

Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson

...Good advice indeed. And while I can see how Muppet's whining about his new age group might lead one to suspect that he allows others to do the heavy lifting, it isn't true in this case: he's a meet director and LMSC chair, among other things.

chris, just curious how muppet's whining could make someone think he's not doing any of the "heavy lifting"? (i'll admit that i might be falling victim to knowing not only what's he's actually saying, but also what he's trying to say )

and just to add to muppet's defense, he's also been active at the club level for a large chunk of the 13 years he's been a USMS member, if not all of it. he's not one for sitting along the sidelines, in any sport

Re: 2010 R11, R12, R13: SCY ages and relay age groups

Originally Posted by swimmieAvsFan

chris, just curious how muppet's whining could make someone think he's not doing any of the "heavy lifting"? (i'll admit that i might be falling victim to knowing not only what's he's actually saying, but also what he's trying to say )

and just to add to muppet's defense, he's also been active at the club level for a large chunk of the 13 years he's been a USMS member, if not all of it. he's not one for sitting along the sidelines, in any sport

He said he's 30, so I figured there was a possibility he hadn't looked into LMSC opportunities simply due to his age. But now I know he's on the ball already!