"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

udawa wrote:Thanks for this Will. As a title, 'The Play in Full' sounds slightly strange to my ear - but a definite improvement on Wiki's 'Extensive Sport Sutra' !D

Bear in mind that the concept of "Divine Play/Sport" is very much ingrained in the Indian psyche. The word "play/sport" when used in a religious context, it automatically assumes the meaning of "Divine Play/Sport".

udawa wrote:Thanks for this Will. As a title, 'The Play in Full' sounds slightly strange to my ear - but a definite improvement on Wiki's 'Extensive Sport Sutra' !D

Bear in mind that the concept of "Divine Play/Sport" is very much ingrained in the Indian psyche. The word "play/sport" when used in a religious context, it automatically assumes the meaning of "Divine Play/Sport".

V

Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?

D

Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.

udawa wrote:Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?

D

I know. Something always gets lost during translation ! Doesn't it ?

In this case, I assume its best left as-is. Or append the word "divine" or any other suitable adjective. Coz.. The sutra tells that whatever the Buddha did was just a "play", (he wasn't "actually" doing anything ) and it was just a "display" for the less-than-enlightened sentient beings.

There is even a Hindu goddess named "Lalitaa" - When translated would literally become "She who plays", which is kinda weird. (No, She is not the Goddess of sports )

It seems that there was a notion the Buddhists adapted that just as the Cosmos was but the sporting mind projection of the Devas (power to control others incarnations?) The Buddha was ALWAYS Cosmic. This is the view of the Lotus Sutra and the Avatamsaka so beloved of Asia. This divorces the Buddha(s) from the rest of humanity and is very typical of Piety where self purification seems to need to involve abasement.

I prefer the later (yet more ancient) view that the Buddha indeed took many incarnations to "get there" as in the Jataka Nidanakatha (The "story of the Buddha in 3 epochs" that is a prelude to the Jataka Tales.) AND there are many Buddhas (Cosmic as to scope, not cosmic as to the exaltation of the Buddha Being).

Between the 1st Century CE and the 3rd Century CE there were many diverse attempts to "add" several of the score of New Thinking ideas that later in retrospect all became aggregated into a definition of a Mahayana. But in these new sutras you will find many different combinations of which new ideas are accepted. Some are "traditional texts" with one or two new ideas added for enhancement. The Jataka Nidanakatha "likes" the Buddha Cosmic as in scope, and the further path of the Ten Perfections to a Greater Path past Arhant to Buddha. Other than that, it's Buddhism.

The first chapter of the Lalitavistara is Mahayana in which the Buddha is Cosmic as in deification and divorcement from humanity. ******An aside: A Brave New Buddhist?

If feel rather homeless. (An atheist Buddhist I live in a rural town in Oregon and the Born Agains and the Buddhists in Priuses both shun me). 2 years ago I had to jettison myself from the mindset of the sangha I have been a part of for 20 years when it imploded spiritually and organizationally. Then I found I landed 1800 years ago in a zone in NW India in which Buddhism is inventing itself as it goes, liking some "Mahayana new way" thinking, and having an organ transplant rejection of other "Mahayana new way" thinking. [I have no problem with and very much embrace the Two Yogas of Mahayoga] That is why the periphery of Gandhara and the Yogacarabhumi as a genre attracts me. Between Sangharaksa and Asangha, (not Vasubandhu so much), people were seizing the means of spiritual production and re-inventing themselves. They and them is like we and now. Leo

udawa wrote:Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?

D

I know. Something always gets lost during translation ! Doesn't it ?

In this case, I assume its best left as-is. Or append the word "divine" or any other suitable adjective. Coz.. The sutra tells that whatever the Buddha did was just a "play", (he wasn't "actually" doing anything ) and it was just a "display" for the less-than-enlightened sentient beings.

There is even a Hindu goddess named "Lalitaa" - When translated would literally become "She who plays", which is kinda weird. (No, She is not the Goddess of sports )

V

Ok. I see another translation offers ''The unfolding of the play' - so presumably the unfolding of the drama of Buddha's awakening or something like that.

Anyway, I'm always grateful for another translation, if only for comparison. And a slightly awkward but accurate version that is generally more useful than a freer more poetic, rendition.

Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.

udawa wrote:Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?

D

I know. Something always gets lost during translation ! Doesn't it ?

In this case, I assume its best left as-is. Or append the word "divine" or any other suitable adjective. Coz.. The sutra tells that whatever the Buddha did was just a "play", (he wasn't "actually" doing anything ) and it was just a "display" for the less-than-enlightened sentient beings.

There is even a Hindu goddess named "Lalitaa" - When translated would literally become "She who plays", which is kinda weird. (No, She is not the Goddess of sports )

V

Vistara does generally mean to amplify, to give a full detailed account, an extensive literary work, stage direction for a narrator to fill in the details, etc. I think in a title like this, it means a detailed literary work. Translating it as "Story" or "Narration" would seem appropriate. The old translation from Sanskrit done in the 19th century called it a Memoir.

Lalita basically means dropping civil pretexts and indulging in whatever seems amusing. Informal dancing. Horsing around. Being amorous, wanton. Having fun. Following one's desires without the usual restraints. Like children, puppies, kittens. I would translate it as "playing" or "having fun." It is not really formal sports. That's too serious. In the case of the Bodhisattva - there is probably some tongue-in-cheek to this - he plays with the spiritual powers and skillful means. Which maybe pokes fun at both the discipline of asceticism (no lalita allowed) as well as the spiritual vacuity of the secular world (which has plenty of lalita, but no Dharma).

cdpatton wrote:Vistara does generally mean to amplify, to give a full detailed account, an extensive literary work, stage direction for a narrator to fill in the details, etc. I think in a title like this, it means a detailed literary work. Translating it as "Story" or "Narration" would seem appropriate. The old translation from Sanskrit done in the 19th century called it a Memoir.

Lalita basically means dropping civil pretexts and indulging in whatever seems amusing. Informal dancing. Horsing around. Being amorous, wanton. Having fun. Following one's desires without the usual restraints. Like children, puppies, kittens. I would translate it as "playing" or "having fun." It is not really formal sports. That's too serious. In the case of the Bodhisattva - there is probably some tongue-in-cheek to this - he plays with the spiritual powers and skillful means. Which maybe pokes fun at both the discipline of asceticism (no lalita allowed) as well as the spiritual vacuity of the secular world (which has plenty of lalita, but no Dharma).

Charlie.

So, 'A Playful Narration'?

Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

Yesterday I was able to download Lalitavistara, but couldn't view or download the Karandavyuha.

I just tried again, and the 84000 website doesn't load; firefox browser just shows "connecting..." I tried it also with Internet Explorer and it's the same.

At their end they are experiencing a database connection error. I am shocked that many websites these days are so poorly implemented. Nothing like this would have been possible in the few websites I created (you could have database connection errors but the user still saw the site and wasn't able to proceed but to just fail and not display anything or worse an overt error message is unacceptable).