I think I am on a roll or mad as Hell at ingorant MSM and talking airheads. I decided to check what the gun grabbers were saying and the dumbness is beyond belief. I had to change channels before I threw something thru the TV screen. I think to reduce the killings quit giving out the attacker,s name. Put some treeth back in our menthal health laws. The ACLU emptied the menthal hospitals. Look what we have on ourstreets now.The mention of arming makes the antigunners piss themselfs and start declaring it is going to be the OK corral,wild West shootouts. Jeff Cooper and Robert Heinlin both said a armed society is a polite society. Joe

His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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You've really got to wonder where this country is going.

Extreme left wingers and extreme right wingers already want to destroy our government. Then the government systematically alienates huge portions of the population by pushing various legislation that infuriates people on both ends of the political spectrum. One day they're shitting on conservatives. The next day they're shitting on liberals. The U.S. government is becoming the Westboro Baptist Church of democracy. People may hate each other but they can all agree the W.S.A sucks.

Gradually (and sometimes rapidly) the satisfied portion of the populace gets smaller and smaller. Pretty soon you'll have the rednecks and the hippies shitting on the same police cars together. Nobody can agree what needs to be done to fix things but everyone can agree things are fucked up.

The only thing the government knows how to do is make more laws. More restrictions. Less rights. More burdens on the citizens. It will never stop on its own.

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Originally Posted by Nutcracker, sweet

I will be investing heavily the next time prices bottom out.

Definitely. I've come to the same conclusion. If this blows over, prices will become reasonable again. The next time this talk starts I'll have a fucking armory that would make a team of Navy Seals jealous and I won't be sweating the **** I don't have.

I'm about to get serious about my gun collecting. And why wouldn't I? Look at these prices. Guns are a better investment than gold.

What6 do you suggest? We replace POTUS with a robot? We arleady tried to elect Gore in 2000! Good god man, what more do you want...and how many of those state empower the people to resort to violence if the sytem is buggered?

Powers in Europe learned, over the centuries, that it would be useless to deny a mass uprising. A written principal--either empowering or denying such--is merely words on paper and will promote or prevent nothing when provocation for an uprising is sufficient.

You seem to think they would behave as if they were.

The way you're describing DC's traitorous elites, you seem to think they were born of Ailen-facehugger eggs. They merely illustrate the difference between fine written political principals (such as constitutional amendments) and the politicians who subvert them. Be of good cheer: this malaise is not unique to the United States.

Nor is ours. Some of the biggest stockpiles of nightmare stuff on the planet are but a stones throw from my front door. It ain't pretty and it ain't terribly well guraded either.

Well, then, if things are going in such a terrible direction, what are the pickup-truck militias waiting for? Ain't it time to reverse the outrage of 1864? Can the populace overthrow their would-be tyrants? Prove it. Seize them nightmare weapons!

Official enumeration isn't a practical "real world" difference?

Real-world words on real-world paper. The fall of the Soviet Union and the Balkan conflict resulted in a glut of arms on Europe's black market. For those who wanted (and still want) assault weapons, they are available--and those who want them don't bother worrying about whether they'll get permission from governments in the form or constitutional amendments or whatever. Obedience to authority has never been a strong suit of Western Europe. More, authorities (some of whom have lucrative relationships with black-marketeers) tend to look the other way when certain folk (far-rightists like yours-truly, for instance) get their hands on juicy hardware, raising the alarm only when jihadists go looking for same.

Ours IS written down so nobody can get confused when stupid conversations like this pop up.

Nobody is confused--except those think having something in writing guarantees anything. If it's written, it can be subverted--just ask your DC "traitors"--and then it's just a matter of going to the black market to obtain whatever you could once get that politicians subverted.

Are you even trying to make a point here? The class to be subjugated was first dissarmed. If you agree then why even try to argue?

You appeared to refer to the disarming of an entire populace. I pointed out that the portion of the populace which supported an empowered movement of any type tends to get hired rather than disarmed.

It does however preserve and prove it's existence.

I can put into writing that the craters of the moon exist. In practical terms, so what?

It has to do with the way laws work here. Some are broad federal laws that everybody must follow (child porn is illegal in all states for example...)

Some are states laws that only aply in that teritory. ( California's bizzare and convoluted firearms regulations for instance.)

Some are local ordinance. (You can open carry a Katana in Orgeon but not in the Portland city park down the street.)

There are notable small areas where firearms ownership is mandatory. They have as little crime as Switzerland. (Less actually) Go figure?

Any large-enough country divides legislative power into different levels. Another poster pointed out that official armed power in the US is divided by level. So what? If the smallest local police force has trouble with a pickup-truck militia, they'll just call in more powerful official backup, and so on until the trouble is dealt with. One might call this "the Waco effect".

Dude, Drudge Report has "civil war" splashed across their main page right now.

'Cause the last one worked out really well for the rebels, didn't it?

A senator just introduced a bill that would make more than half the population of the U.S. de-facto criminals and enemies of the state.

...which is only a concern for those who give a **** about what the State thinks of them. Since the population of the US is so mightily-armed, and can grab poorly guarded nightmare stockpiles at will, stop whining and just crush the bastards. Or ignore them and do whatever you want regardless of what they think (which is my approach, but let's not digress).

Yeah bro, I'm sacred as hell for the direction things are going and I don't think your solution of "roll over and do what the man with the gun says" is a great idea given the numerous historical precedents.

When did I suggest any such "solution"?

What's that you said about vigilance?

That I knew the difference between vigilance and paranoia.

Great, how would you feel if you were denied your tools?

If I wish to keep my tools, I will do so--legally or otherwise. Whether I keep them does not depend on government permission. I'm not that obedient.

They are looking to ban lever actions Vieux. LEVER ACTIONS. This is not about safety, this is about DOMINION. Period.

...and how, in practical terms, do you imagine they can achieve this? They can't do it in Europe (hence the looking-the-other-way approach to the back market); how do you imagine legislators might succeed in the US?

I see them as tools. The job they are supposed to perform is sacred to us. (Preservation of liberty) There are those in power who wish to deny us the ability to do that job.

They can wish all they want. If the firepower is in the hands of the populace, you can deal with them (anything from voting them out on up) or ignore them...or just keep on complaining about it, I suppose.

In facdt, the kind of social ideas they have are downright dystopian. Kafkaesque. Outlawing large sodas and such. Making it illegal to own items not produced by companies they are invested in and other conflicts of interest. Kleptocratic bullshit is what it is!

Ditto.

Or maybe I'm just being "vigilant" and paying attention to the emerging world power that openly discusses it's intent to annex the whole Pacific rim. (That would include my home BTW.)

Han exceptionalism is nothing new. Peoples who claim "exceptionalism" for themselves tend to make grand claims and attempt land-grabs. From Joshua's attack on Canaan to the Roman Empire, from the Arab empire to the British one. As for China, the number of Bushmasters in pickup-truck militia hands won't matter much unless you believe in the whole "WOLVERINES!" fairy-tale. Defensive measures in such a case will be carried out a somewhat bigger scale. Exceptionalsm, wherever it happens, is just another way of cheering for the home team. Just about everyone, the world over, does it. A people who didn't consider itself "special" in some way...that would be exceptional.

It might be that, one day, the Chinese will have the capacity to demand that the US repay its astronomically-sized debt to China? Not to worry. Won't be for a while yet.

Maybe I'm paying attention to the constant armed incursions by drug cartels into U.S. teritory. (I have family in Mexico BTW. This is about paramilitary forces running wild. It has nothing to do with my Grandpa Jaime. You think I have a problem with "Mexicans". lol Your talking to one, dude.)

Just out of curiosity, where do these cartels get their weapons?

Oh, never mind. I'll just look it up.

Maybe I'm paying attention when Congress enacts laws which gut the constitutions most important protections (the ones establishing our justice system BTW, not the gun thing...).

Maybe I'm paying attention when our President does the same thing.

But...but what about those checks and balances you mentioned? You don't mean to imply that they're just...abstractions on paper?!!?!?

Maybe, just maybe, I don't like watching our country go down the same road as Weimar Germany.

Weimar Germany was the aftermath of a resounding military defeat. What is the parallel here? Viet Nam? The fact that the Taliban remain undefeated?

Maybe I'm aware of several branches of my family tree that were "pruned" in the 40's because of that little fiasco.

What occurred after Weimar was marked by a rearmament of sizable sections of the population. Up until their invasion of Russia, the Nazis had a number of lucrative business partnerships with the US (just ask IBM, among others). Again, what is the parallel?

Maybe I'd rather die fighting than stand idly by and watch it happen again.

Going down in battle is the best way to go--but that's just according to my faith. Don't know about yours.

As the very effing least, I will excersise my rights to vote and contact my representatives as well as stand in protest against what I see as violations of the social compact between us and our elected REPRESENTATIVES.

That's the spirit...and let's hope your vote and voice are more important to these luminaries than their other vested interests.

Welcome to the 21st century Vieux. I don't want to see my country turned into a third world cess pool. How bout you? You want to see that happen where you live?

Normandy's not that popular a destination for third-world types. Too cold. So...nope, not planning on learning Arabic any time soon. If planned on living in Reconquistan, I'd be working on my Espanol for sure.

What do you need a 10 guage for? 12 or even 20 would work just fine on any game you wish to hunt. Why the overkill? Nobody needs a 10 gauge to hunt with. What are you, some kind of gun nut?

After hearing that question from so many urbanites--from both sides of the Atlantic--do I really need to hear it one more time? Sheesh!

In any case, when wilderness hiking on your side of the pond, I found the 10-ga. scared off more bears than a 12. Rifles, of course, don't even register with them.

Vieux, your post is so big that trying to respond crashes the webpage. IDK why, but I won't be able to quote you so I'm going to try to keep this quick:

1)Powers in Europe treat peacful protestors like ****. See Spain, Itally, France. That's blood on the wall. Not a democratic socialist utopia of understanding and enlightenment.

2) I am not David Ickle. I'm not even Alex Jones. The elite are not lizards (I hope?) but they are dangerously out of touch and are now threatening our basic freedoms of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness via over criminalisation. This applies to far more mundane pursuits than firearms ownership BTW.

3) "Eternal vigilence is the price of liberty" - Wendell Philips, who you would call "paranoid". The rest of the quote from his speech is pretty cool too. Think you'd dig it:http://www.bartleby.com/73/1073.html

4) There is no war on right now. Why would I want to go on a suicide mission that would only lend credibility to the states increasingly disturbing paranoia? This brings us to...

5) You want to know how easy it is to be branded and "enemy of the state" right now?http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...ou-on-dhs.html
No, they will NOT be arming any civilians. They most cerainly want every pleb dissarmed ASAP.
If you're not up to speed on the severity of the situation you should not be arguing this subject.

5)You wan't to be a fellon that's fine. But you're telling me basically, that instead of fighting to preserve our rights we should risk ten years in supermax and a $250,000 fine for possesing things we legally purchased. Like I said, mind your own effing business!

6) They can't round up every gun. But they can ruin the lives of millions trying. That's what we don't want to see happen, and that scenario is what has some people fighting mad already.

7)Arms are in the hands of the populace today. There are those who are actively trying to take them away tomorrow. Should that happen we would not have the power to defend amendments 4-9 of the BOR. These are the very ones actively being stomped on by congress and the executive branch since 9/11/2001, with increasing severity and abusiveness. The ONLY thing slowing dow the march of fascism is the fact that we can fight back, so they must take baby steps. But they are growing impatient, hence the big push (pusch?)...

8) "Han Exceptionalism" (of a sort) is what forced the revolution that birthed this nation to begin with. That revolution BTW was fought by only 3% of the people. Gun owners now account for at least 33% of the U.S. How good of an idea would it be to poke that hornets nest? Just saying...

9)China plans 50-100 years ahead. When they say they are looking to invade, they are talking about in my childrens lifetime. You're looking at China 2013. China is looking ahead to 2060. That threat is very, VERY real. They don't even try to hide it. They speak of it openly. EDJUCATE YOURSELF!

10) Cartels get their weapons from the very organs of state which would confiscate our own.http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/
So, the government is actively arming militarized gangs which make daily incursions across our borders killing civilians on both sides, while simultaneously pushing to take away our ability to defend ourselves from those militarized gangs. (Which control organized crime networks throughout the country)

See what I mean by "treason"?

11)Amendment number two means that checks an ballances will be applied via force of arms if necesary. For some reason it appears that some in power would like to take it that far.

12) The Weimar comparisson had to do with the loss of liberty, privacy and basic human rights in an emerging police state. Watching our nation march in lockstep towards similar ends is well, "disturbing".

13)I like to go down in nightclubs but to each their own...

14)The will of the people is wholly irrelevant to the powers that be. It has been getting worse for several decades. So bad that even fence sitting moderates are starting to take notice and buy rifles and survival grub. It's kind of scary, really.

15)The third world comment was about our deteriorating standards of living and the loss of human rights, but go on Captain Racist!

16)I specifically asked that question because it as repetitious and fallacious as the questions you are asking me regarding the preservation and exercise of natural rights. You might as well ask me why I support municipal sewer systems.

Just out of curriosity, WTH kind of bears do you have in Normandy that a 12 gauge isn't enough BOOM for them? Remind me never to carry jerky in your nature parks! YEESH!

Good thing, 'cause "democratic" and "socialist" are oxymoronic from my perspective. Outside of the cities, France is very conservative. Ditto much of Europe. During my visits to west-o'-the-pond, I've found my views more conservative than those of a great many North Americans, despite the numbers of them who, upon hearing I'm European, automatically (and hilariously) assume I'm some sort of Marxist.

2) I am not David Ickle. I'm not even Alex Jones. The elite are not lizards (I hope?) but they are dangerously out of touch and are now threatening our basic freedoms of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness via over criminalisation. This applies to far more mundane pursuits than firearms ownership BTW.

This behaviour on the part of politicians is nothing new...except perhaps in your country. In older nations, such is a matter of record. We ignore it.

3) "Eternal vigilence is the price of liberty" - Wendell Philips, who you would call "paranoid". The rest of the quote from his speech is pretty cool too. Think you'd dig it:http://www.bartleby.com/73/1073.html

Many thanks for the link. I've already read Philips, and the quote is well-known. I was implying that, instead of getting all hyped up about the doings of politicians, one can either turf them from office (by whatever means) or just don't pay any attention to them whatsoever.

4) There is no war on right now. Why would I want to go on a suicide mission that would only lend credibility to the states increasingly disturbing paranoia? This brings us to...

But...but TRAITORS are trying to imprison you!!! How can you say there's no war? What kind of patriot are you?

Dude, I'm identitaire, a far-right designation which very likely places me on every watch-list in the EU. That's how easy it is. Ask me if I give a half a ****.

No, they will NOT be arming any civilians. They most cerainly want every pleb dissarmed ASAP
If you're not up to speed on the severity of the situation you should not be arguing this subject.

What I'm up to speed on are the impossible logistics of trying to disarm every civilian in such a large area. They just...can't...do it.

5)You wan't to be a fellon that's fine. But you're telling me basically, that instead of fighting to preserve our rights we should risk ten years in supermax and a $250,000 fine for possesing things we legally purchased. Like I said, mind your own effing business!

I can offer opinions on anything I want, and of you don't like it, that's yours to deal with. The likelihood that reprimanding or imprisoning every suddenly-illegal weapon-owner across such a vast land is within the logistical capability of a government is virtually nil. They cannot do it.

6) They can't round up every gun. But they can ruin the lives of millions trying. That's what we don't want to see happen, and that scenario is what has some people fighting mad already.

They do not have the capability of ruining that many lives without significant cooperation from the citizenry in question.

7)Arms are in the hands of the populace today. There are those who are actively trying to take them away tomorrow.

Ditto.

Should that happen we would not have the power to defend amendments 4-9 of the BOR.

They don't have the resources.

These are the very ones actively being stomped on by congress and the executive branch since 9/11/2001, with increasing severity and abusiveness. The ONLY thing slowing dow the march of fascism is the fact that we can fight back, so they must take baby steps.

What is slowing things down are complex logistics and the possibility that those trying to pull this off might get voted out of office...and not by Bushmasters.

But they are growing impatient, hence the big push (pusch?)...

It's "putsch". You're welcome.

8) "Han Exceptionalism" (of a sort) is what forced the revolution that birthed this nation to begin with. That revolution BTW was fought by only 3% of the people. Gun owners now account for at least 33% of the U.S. How good of an idea would it be to poke that hornets nest? Just saying...

So why the Great Fear of being disarmed by such a relatively-weak government?

9)China plans 50-100 years ahead. When they say they are looking to invade, they are talking about in my childrens lifetime. You're looking at China 2013. China is looking ahead to 2060. That threat is very, VERY real. They don't even try to hide it. They speak of it openly. EDJUCATE YOURSELF!

Empires rise. Just as surely, they fall. If you'd educated yourself--or if you came from an older nation--you'd know this simple fact.

10) Cartels get their weapons from the very organs of state which would confiscate our own.http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/
So, the government is actively arming militarized gangs which make daily incursions across our borders killing civilians on both sides, while simultaneously pushing to take away our ability to defend ourselves from those militarized gangs. (Which control organized crime networks throughout the country)

See what I mean by "treason"?

Then you understand my point re: how easy it is to procure black-markey weaponry, in Europe or anywhere else on the planet. The links between those in power and certain types of merchants is nothing new.

11)Amendment number two means that checks an ballances will be applied via force of arms if necesary. For some reason it appears that some in power would like to take it that far.

"Applied via force of arms" by who? You know as well as I do that those in power will simply interpret constitutional writings to their advantage.

12) The Weimar comparisson had to do with the loss of liberty, privacy and basic human rights in an emerging police state. Watching our nation march in lockstep towards similar ends is well, "disturbing".

The Nazis were elected via, among other things, scaring the German populace about the growing communist threat and theories about "racial undesirables".

13)I like to go down in nightclubs but to each their own...

Long as I don't have to listen to any autotune.

14)The will of the people is wholly irrelevant to the powers that be.

Where I'm from, the reverse is also true.

So bad that even fence sitting moderates are starting to take notice and buy rifles and survival grub. It's kind of scary, really.

15)The third world comment was about our deteriorating standards of living and the loss of human rights, but go on Captain Racist!

Sure, captain politically-correct. On what topic?

16)I specifically asked that question because it as repetitious and fallacious as the questions you are asking me regarding the preservation and exercise of natural rights. You might as well ask me why I support municipal sewer systems.

Meh. That's a problem for city-folk.

Just out of curriosity, WTH kind of bears do you have in Normandy that a 12 gauge isn't enough BOOM for them? Remind me never to carry jerky in your nature parks! YEESH!

Better read that again. I specifically referred to hiking on your side of the pond. Been everywhere from northern Ontario to the Yukon. The jerky in Normandy's nature parks isn't the best idea in any case: the wild boar mass at least twice a person's weight, and that's just the immature ones.

"Feinstein's sensible proposal, par in almost every other civilized nation, calls for banning the sale, transfer, importation or manufacturing of military-style weapons and doing the same for magazines than can accept more than 10 rounds. And the 1994 assault weapon ban gets more teeth. But the Feinstein bill doesn't just go after gun owners; it also protects them by grandfathering weapons legally owned at the time her proposed law would be enacted. Grandfathered weapons would be subject to registration and background checks on the owners and any transferees. "

Why, thank you Mrs. Feinstein for trying to protect me! You're so thoughtful that you want to protect me by making my legally purchased guns legal when you **** on my way of life by taking away a huge chunk of my gun rights. I am forever in your debt! And thank you, Alan for helping me understand how much Senator Feinstein wants to protect me in my butthole.

Good thing, 'cause "democratic" and "socialist" are oxymoronic from my perspective. Outside of the cities, France is very conservative. Ditto much of Europe. During my visits to west-o'-the-pond, I've found my views more conservative than those of a great many North Americans, despite the numbers of them who, upon hearing I'm European, automatically (and hilariously) assume I'm some sort of Marxist.

O.k., I gotta ask. What points to you find yourself more conservative on?

(I just got to ask because there's some real moobat mo-fo's over here and I wanna know where they're not adding up.)

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

This behaviour on the part of politicians is nothing new...except perhaps in your country. In older nations, such is a matter of record. We ignore it.

Is that what you were doing in the summer of 1789?

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

Many thanks for the link. I've already read Philips, and the quote is well-known. I was implying that, instead of getting all hyped up about the doings of politicians, one can either turf them from office (by whatever means) or just don't pay any attention to them whatsoever.

Dude, I'm identitaire, a far-right designation which very likely places me on every watch-list in the EU. That's how easy it is. Ask me if I give a half a ****.

Ooh, good for you! Would you like a cookie?

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

What I'm up to speed on are the impossible logistics of trying to disarm every civilian in such a large area. They just...can't...do it.

The usual suspects look like they're going to try. You really think they are smart people? Look at the **** these joker have voted into law and get back to me on weather or not you think they've analyzed it from you're point of view...

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

I can offer opinions on anything I want, and of you don't like it, that's yours to deal with. The likelihood that reprimanding or imprisoning every suddenly-illegal weapon-owner across such a vast land is within the logistical capability of a government is virtually nil. They cannot do it..

Before offering an opinion you might want to actually read the bill being proposed.

At least then it would be an informed opinion...

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

They do not have the capability of ruining that many lives without significant cooperation from the citizenry in question.

One post you claim that the government is untopable with all their bitching war toys.

The next they are impotent fuddy duddies who couldn't kick down a single door at 4am because it's past their bedtime.

You can;t have it both ways. Wh

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

They don't have the resources.

Lack of resources has never stopped congress from doing anything stupid and costly.

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

What is slowing things down are complex logistics and the possibility that those trying to pull this off might get voted out of office...and not by Bushmasters.

Yup, voted out by bushmaster owners. Who don't want to be made criminals by the whim of an ignorant hypocritical few (who are paid out of our pockets BTW).

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

It's "putsch". You're welcome.

danke

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

So why the Great Fear of being disarmed by such a relatively-weak government?

Who gets to be the sacrificial lamb in your weird fantasy dude? Just roll the dice and figure chances favor someone else getting to be the legal precedent. Who gets a ride through the justice sytem for no action of their own at all? Who would you throw under the bus for your smug sense of security?

No level of injustice is tollerable in a civilised society. None.

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

Empires rise. Just as surely, they fall. If you'd educated yourself--or if you came from an older nation--you'd know this simple fact.

What point are you even trying to make here?

You think you could go one post without contradicting yourself.

For all you're effite condescension and pretentious airs you really are dumb as ****.

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

Then you understand my point re: how easy it is to procure black-markey weaponry, in Europe or anywhere else on the planet. The links between those in power and certain types of merchants is nothing new.

Dumbfuck, when I purchase a gun I do the paperwork, clear the check and pay the tax. Just like a hundred million other people who are smarter than to risk buying anything high-dollar on the black market.

You do a lot of "black market business" Vieux? Do you have even an inkling of what you are talking about? Who you are talking about "casually dealing" with?

Go buy a case of AK's on your "black market" and get back to me. That is if you don't get busted in a sting or murdered by arms dealers who would rather have you cash and keep their guns.

Stupid Vieux. Really, really stupid.

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

"Applied via force of arms" by who? You know as well as I do that those in power will simply interpret constitutional writings to their advantage.

What point are you trying to make? Who overthrew those "empires" you're talking about?

Please, tell me because "we don't have history classes or books in this country".

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

"The Nazis were elected via, among other things, scaring the German populace about the growing communist threat and theories about "racial undesirables". .

You mean like the "terrorist" threat and political dissidents?

How do you not see parallels? People like you are the reason **** gets so bad that when people finally pull their heads out of the sand it's too late and they are already trapped.