Arsenal Develop Youngsters, Unlike Manchester United

June 11, 2008

It was announced yesterday that Aaron Ramsey chose to sign for Arsenal over United, following weeks of us being tipped as the favourites to sign him. I addressed this issue yesterday, which brought about lots of interesting feedback from United and Arsenal fans alike.

The general conclusion seemed to be that Arsenal’s bid was more impressive, with Wenger flying the lad out to Switzerland, all expenses paid, to talk the manager in person. In contrast, United captain Gary Neville was the one to do the meet and greet for us. Arsenal certainly made a more impressive case for signing the player, which maybe suggests United weren’t as keen as the Gunners to get his signature.

In the case of Aaron Ramsey’s idol, Ryan Giggs, the manager showed up on his doorstep on his 14th birthday, asking him to sign for the club. This is a story Ramsey is probably more than aware of and maybe this showed the player that United weren’t as bothered about signing him.

However, a point I’d like to contest is that Arsenal is the club for nurturing young talent, in contrast to United, who haven’t done this successfully since the “kids” in 1995. Apparently, Fergie doesn’t compare to Wenger on this front…

Beckham, the Nevilles, Butt and Scholes have been a blessing and a curse for United’s name. We won everything with these players, beginning with the League title and FA Cup double in their first season as starting XI players.

When we won the European Cup in 1999, Gary Neville, Paul Scholes, Nicky Butt and David Beckham were all 24-years-old, Becks celebrating his birthday just a couple of weeks before that magical night at the Nou Camp. Phil Neville was 22-years-old. On the bench were 19-year-olds Wes Brown and Jonathan Greening.

However, the negative side that comes with these players is that they set unattainable standards for our future youth team products. Since then, the likes of Wes Brown, John O’Shea and Darren Fletcher have faced plenty of criticism, with them being compared to the great youth products of the 90s.

Truth be told, I’d be amazed if any team in this country, any time soon at least, repeats the achievement of bringing through so many talented young players at one time. The Treble is something no other English team has ever managed, but to win this with so many homegrown players is quite simply remarkable.

Since our legacy begun to take its shape under Sir Matt Busby, United have always placed importance on bringing through youth players.

Arsenal fans tend to throw in stats about how much our squads cost comparatively (although they might be interested to know our wage bill is surprisingly similar, with a difference of just £2 million in the 05-06 season) but that argument holds little weight with me. Money dominates football these days and if you’ve got it, you should spend it. Arsenal announce every season that Wenger has money to spend, yet it doesn’t get spent. Either the club are lying and Arsenal don’t have the money to spend, or Wenger is choosing not to.

With little money spent on transfers, but vast amounts spent on wages to secure these players, Wenger has created a good Arsenal side. They were top of the table for more weeks than any other team last season, they made it to the League Cup semi-finals, and European Cup quarter-finals. I am not knocking that achievement, but do believe that producing a good team, that almost wins things, isn’t good enough. Or at least, it shouldn’t be good enough for Arsenal. They are still, as Jose Mourinho would say, losers.

United have always mixed squad players with youth team products. In more recent years, we’ve had to buy more players to put in the starting XI, whilst our youth team products tend to warm the bench. That is undeniable. However, the players from our youth team have a place in our squad. There won’t be a game that passes where we don’t have at least a couple of youth team products involved.

25 players have represented United this season (not including the one Carling Cup game, where we embarrassingly got dumped out by Coventry, but where several of our current youth team players featured. To include this game would give an unfair representation of how much our youth team players contributed to this season), 9 of them have come from our youth team, 7 of them cost £7 million or less, and 9 of them were big money players.

If Wenger prefers to spend a little and bring in most of his players young, then that is his prerogative. It hasn’t worked yet, maybe it will work in the future. Ferguson, however, prefers to spend the money he has available to him, whilst still putting faith in the players who have come through the ranks, and bagging a few bargains (Patrice evra cost £5.5 million for example. Ramsey will cost Arsenal £5-6 million if reports are to be believed). The result of this last season was a Premiership and European Cup double. I don’t understand this view point that somehow United’s success should be belittled because we choose to spend money. “The signings Fergie made last season cost more than our entire team” is something I’ve heard a lot. So, what? Do Arsenal fans want a pat on the back because they spend less than United and win nothing?

If all United did was fork out £15+ million for all their players, I would understand the frustration. However, people seem to overlook just how many players who have come through our ranks feature. Darren Fletcher is no David Beckham, but a player of his ability would cost at the very least £5-7 million. Before Arsenal fans slate him, they should remember how he ran rings around Cesc Fabregas a couple of months ago, and the two goals he put past them, as well as his good performances in Europe.

Wes Brown played more games for United this season than any of our other players. In the 06-07 season, both Darren Fletcher and John O’Shea played in over 40 games. Ryan Giggs has played first team football for United for 17 years and Paul Scholes for 15 years. Are they past it? Well, that’s what we’ve been told for the past few years, ever since they got in to their 30’s. That argument was harder to make when Scholes scored the goal that put us in to the European Cup final this season, and Giggs scored the winning penalty in the final, as well as scoring a goal that felt like it had clinched the Premiership title against Wigan. Just because our youth team products aren’t the centre of our team anymore, it doesn’t mean they do not still play a crucial role.

So now we have address our youth products, it is now important to look at how Fergie incorporates and nurtures the young talent he buys. The most glaring example is Cristiano Ronaldo, which is overlooked every time somebody claims Fergie doesn’t turn potential in to brilliance. When he arrived at Old Trafford, he quickly picked up the nickname “one trick pony” by our rivals. Loads of stepovers, no end product. Yeh, he had bags of potential, just like any youngster Sir Alex or Wenger buys, but he was a long way off being World class.

Yet, in five years, Ronaldo has become the best player in the World. His former coach at Sporting said earlier this year that Ronaldo was unrecognisable to the teenager he once watched play. He has won every major trophy available to him in England, scoring in a League, FA and European Cup final. Last season, spending the majority of his time on the wing, scored 42 goals in 48 games. For the second year running, he has been named PFA and Footballer Writers Player of the Year. How people can claim Ferguson doesn’t nurture young talent amazes me.

Tevez, Rooney, Nani and Anderson are the foundation for the team in the distant future, who have an average age of just 21. Whilst Rooney’s merits have already been proven, in their first seasons, Tevez finished in the top 10 scorers in the league, Nani scored a couple of wondergoals (against Boro and Spurs), as well as finding the back of the net against Liverpool and Arsenal, whilst it is Anderson who has brought about the most excitement. Getting the better of Cesc Fabregas in their two meetings this season, Anderson has gone from strength to strength this season, featuring far more than we would have imagined. Fighting off competition against Scholes, Hargreaves and Carrick, Anderson has made a real impact on our team and fans, and it won’t be too far off before the Brazilian gets recognition on a European and World level too.

In the European Cup final against Chelsea, the average age of the outfield players who featured (Brown 28, Ferdinand 29, Vidic 26, Evra 27, Hargreaves 27, Scholes 33, Carrick 26, Ronaldo 23, Tevez 23, Rooney 22, Nani 21, Anderson 19 and Giggs 34) was just 26-years-old. Over half of them joined the club when they were teenagers.

The average age of the outfield United team that beat Dynamo Kiev 4-0 in the Champions League this season was just 22-years-old: Simpson (20), Vidic (26), Pique (20), Evra (26), Ronaldo (22), Carrick (26), Nani (21), Fletcher (23), Rooney (22), Tevez (23).

When Arsenal and United met at the Emirates earlier in the season, much fuss was made about Wenger’s “kids” getting a good result. A draw at home against us. However, there was less than a year difference in the average ages of the players.
Sagna (24), Toure (26), Gallas (30), Clichy (22), Eboue (24), Fabregas (20), Flamini (23), Rosicky (27), Hleb (26), Adebayor (23).Average age: 24.5

United have more money to spend than Arsenal, no doubt, however, United spend this money on a mixture of youth and experience. Whilst Wenger can be applauded by his idealistic view of bringing in and nurturing predominantly young players, his three barren years at the club would suggest he’s got to bare the fruits of this decision sooner rather than later. Let’s not forget, since winning his first trophy in 1990, Fergie hasn’t gone longer than one season without winning something. It seems Wenger is afforded all the time in the World for this “project”.

Arsenal fans may be very happy with Wenger’s way of doing things, and if it proves to be a successful method, they will be even happier. However, United fans have little to complain about in regards to Ferguson’s approach of nurturing young talent, spending money when it’s there, and ensuring there is enough experience in the squad to cope with adversity.

Whatever reasons Ramsey had for picking Arsenal over United, to claim it was down to the fact Wenger is better at dealing with youth is pretty moronic. Wenger may have slightly more young players in the first team at Arsenal, but Ferguson still has plenty, and they all have a European Cup winners medal.

39 Comments

perfectly said. and fair do's to arsenal and if they're happy enough with going on about things this way.. but it wouldn't do for us to end up empty handed season after season.

it's no secret, Fergie is the best. His record, experience and history cannot be debated. The fact that he does balance the youth team with new signings and experienced players alike attests to his understanding of what makes success. The criticism of that balance comes down to jealousy. SAF has it right - no question.

As for Ramsay not signing.. I have to admit, your comment about the way we signed Giggsy makes me think perhaps we really didn't want him that badly. And if so, then it's probably for a reason

The point is really that Wenger was forced to bring youngsters through as the stadium was built. Now that he has money, he cannot now say to the youngsters "Sorry, I've got money now, I'll buy Eto'o and put you on the bench". He's an honourable guy and he will not do that. I, for one, support him on principle. There's too much dishonesty in football and it's good to see someone who breaks the mold. As for Mourinho, really, why anyone would disgrace themselves by quoting that charlatan, is beyond me. He's subhuman.

LOL we don't have any money mate. We can't even afford to repay the loans we have on their heads and keep deferreing the interest!

We don't have more money to spend... in fact the Glazers just dumping more and more debt on the clubs head which is really starting to concern me and I'm surprised that no other fan is concerned about this.

We are almost 1 billion in debt at the moment and if that twat Platini gets his way; we'll be banned from the Champions League until we sort these debts out.

As for our youth products; I rate Fletcher higher than most do and Wes Brown is good too... but who else have we brought through our youth setup this century that we can really rant and rave about?

Ronaldo didn't come into our youth setup - he came straight into the squad. Same goes for Nani, Anderson, Rooney etc.

Richardson and Evans are premier league quality but that's all I can think of at the moment whereas Arsenal (even though they bought the players at a very young age rather than promote them) brought through to premier league quality Cole, Bentley, Fabregas, Clichy, Walcott, Bendtner, Larsson, Upson, Harper, that ginger bloke at the Chelski just to name a few.

As previously mentioned it was the funding of Emirates Stadium that has limited Wenger in the transfer market. Now he has a group of young players that he will not turn his back on.

There are many Arsenal fans that don't like this but the majority that go to games do. I'd point out that Wenger also emphasises his repsonsibility towards the long-term future of the club i.e lets not spend crazy money until the stadium is paid off or at least the income from the sale highbury arrives in a couple of years. Given United's financial situtation I believe Fergie should have a similar attitutde.

Finally i don't see why Ramsey signing for Arsenal has caused such a stir amongst United fans, maybe its that your club was putting such a positive spin on things but if you had conducted yourselves properly and kept things confidential none of this would rubbish would be going on!

After a good, interesting and balanced commentary yesterday I'm not sure why you felt the need for this post, abit too defensive me thinks. There is no questioning that Arsenal came up a little short this season and we have been without a trophy too long for my liking but that's hardly news as a million and one blogs have already mentioned this. I thought the point was more on why Aaron Ramsey chose Arsenal and comparing the youth policy of both clubs for an interesting debate. Very easy to compare Patrice Evra's price with Ramsey, a price Man Utd were also willing to pay (what about the 15 million+ you spent on both Nani and Anderson and Ronaldo was over 12million and Rooney 26 million and tevez will cost around £20 million at least). I would suggest strongly that recently Man Utd have bought youngsters who have already captured the attention of the football world hence cost very high prices. You can afford to do so and good luck as I believe it's all about the talent however they arrive. However this is in stark contrast to the captures of Becks, Giggs etc or Vieria and fabregas. Barcelona are probably the kings of youth policy having had Messi, Fabregas , Bojan etc from early ages. I respect Man Utd and think Fergie a great manager however I think Man Utd came up short in the attempt to capture of Ramsey by thinking more about Cardiff the club rather than the player himself.

Some fair points here that in the whole I, as an Arsenal fan, would agree with. I'm not sure I agree with your comments about Anderson soon to be receiving European/World recognition - he was overlooked a fair bit this season, but to be fair to him he is playing a massively more defensive role, rather than the attacking flair he was known for at Gremio/Porto.

There is no doubting the ability of the 1995 group, and as you rightly point out that bar is set so high it will be difficult to emulate. In my opinion, Fletcher, O'Shea, Brown etc are nothing more than average squad players who would probably make the starting line up of teams on the cusp of the top half. Just my opinion.

Wenger is afforded a lot of time for his projects, and I am very glad for this fact. Wenger is constantly looking to bring in 15-17 year olds so that they can be "moulded" to play the Arsenal "way" [or Wengerball as we gooners like to call it]. Personally I believe it's more of an achievement to turn a 15 year old Fabregas into the player he is today for just compensation, rather than turning Nani and Anderson [£30m combined] into good players. The same can be said, to a lesser extent for Ronaldo. £12m for a raw talent is a lot, but there's no denying that every penny was worth it after his form over the past couple of years, so fair play to Ferguson there.

I'd say there are two very different ideals and two very different approaches by both managers, both intent on playing attractive, positive football. And although there's often clashes between the managers and fans, I think there's a begrudging respect there as well.

I try to be objective but what your collum suggests is that you are feeling the fear. Ramsey likes the way we play football. We play better football than you and of course you dont like it. For the past 3 seasons wenger or GOD, has had the forsight as has the board to see where football in this country is going. He has been developing a team which will dominate football with exciting one touch football the likes of wich man u cannot match, everyone knows it so accept it. What are you going to do without christiano hes gone guys. Sucsess for you has gone last season is history. Mr Ramsey kjnows it and i have a feeling that you do as well.

As an Arsenal fan I won't just completely dismiss this article (as I'm sure a few gooners will) because I feel you have made some valid points. Indeed, the contribution made to your team by players that have emerged from your youth system is undeniable, and Alex Ferguson clearly does know how to nurture young talent as well as anyone - Giggs, Scholes, Beckham et al are testament to this.

However, I would contest the point you make regarding money. The fact is, we not on Utd's level financially and I don't envisage us ever getting there. The fact is - as much as it pains me to say it - that united are a bigger club, with a bigger potential market/fan base for generating income. As a result, we don't have nearly enough money to compete.

If we could have kept hold of the likes of David Bentley and Steve Sidwell I'm sure they would play a similar role to the O'Shea's, Fletcher's and Brown's (although this season he featured prominently due to Neville's injury, but you are attempting to replace him with a first choice RB this summer). The reason Bentley etc. chose t o leave Arsenal was about securing first team football at an earlier age than they would have been able to with us - as Wenger did promise them their chances in the team if they were prepared to wait. However, it is clearly not only about first team football, as evidenced by Sidwell's willingness to warm the bench at chelsea for £50,000 per week.

Indeed, we failed to keep Matthieu Flamini because we could only offer him a wage similar to that received by John O'Shea and Wes Brown; Flamini an integral part of our first 11 - Brown, O'Shea squad players.

I honestly feel that Wenger's reluctance to spend big is something which he is forced to do because, like i said, we are not on your league financially - we cannot offer the same wages or same transfer fees. As such Wenger prefers to buy young and develop, which clearly hasn't turned us into champions inspite of our close run to the title this season.

Our squad has been put together for a comparative pittance and it is something that I point out to non-gooner fans, often as a justification for us not winning anything but also often out of annoyance. However, whilst I wish we could spend shit loads of money, reality dictates that we will probably go about our business in the same way for a few more years - at least until we pay opff some more of this loan on Ashburton grove.

As a manager I rate Ferguson up there with the best and, unlike a lot of arsenal fan, I actually quite like him and respect him. I don't begrudge him for doing what he is doing because, like you say: if you have the money why not spend it. I respect his footballing ethos, his commitment to a certain brand of football and his ability to nurture young talent. BUT, as an Arsenal fan it makes me slightly envious because, like I have stated a fe times already, we just don't have the money to compete with him. That is probably the reason that us Arsenal fans point out how much our team/squad cost in comparison to the teams we are competing against.

When we are accused of bottling it and throwing away the premiership, it is our only response because as far as I can see it was more down to our (relatively) cheaply assembled and ultimately injured squad than our bottle.

So congratulations to Man United, you deserve your success because the money you spend, you have earnt, unlike a certain bunch of cunts from West London. I woulsn't begrudge you that money, but try and achieve a little empathy with Arsenal fans and see how frustrating it must be that your club tries to compete with its trivals in spite of the fact that you are financially disadvantaged.

Gooner86 - of course we empaphise. You don't think Chelsea have an advantage over us? The summer before last, our only signing was Carrick (which we made back from the sale of other players that same summer), whilst Chelsea signed A Cole, Ballack and Shevchenko!

We know exactly what it likes to have rivals spending far more money that you. We know entirely of the frustration it brings. But we are also fortunate enough to then know how it feels to get one over on this team (which was done so obviously in on our victories over them for the League title and European Cup last season).

First up - great double result and fair dues. End game, we were only 4 pts short, only 6 goals less and we had lost the Crozillian and RVP. The young team fell apart mentally after the Birmingham match and Gallas is not the man to lead and we have an unbalanced back 4. A tinker here and there and I think the League is ours for the forseeable future. Great young talent and Joga Bonito. Excellent year for you guys, but I think our era has come.

I think a lot is lost in translation in regard to Arsenal fans citing the money that Fergie does indeed spend. No doubt that pre 2005 United were debt free and the global brand generated multiple millions in order to buy any talent Fergie desired, however that same argument cannot be used now due to one thing: the Glazer induced debt.

The money Glazer used to buy United amounted to loans from hedge funds at high interest, currently standing at £750m. Glazer has put all this debt on United, with a payment deadline of 2013. Failure to meet this will not hamper Glazer - it is United who will bear the brunt of a fallout. To date, United have made interest only payments of £50m per annum, with the principle still outstanding, yet the transfer spending has remained constant, not to mention last summer's splurge. This means that unless Glazer has a magic plan that we have not thought about, a default on the loan will have United taken into administration and assets sold. Hence, why Platini was ranting and raving last week about "cheating via debt".

In effect, the transfer spending of United is no different to that of Chelsea. The only difference is that Roman Abramovich can cancel any payment of the "loan" to Chelsea, but United's debt has to be repaid. If UEFA and FIFA suddenly bring in laws to ban clubs based on debt, then Arsenal can still be allowed to participate based on a manageable and stadium related debt (£270m) that would be wiped out when the Highbury development gets sold in a year or two. But it is United who have the most to fear.

I admit to not liking United based on the acrimony that has ensued on the pitch in previous years, but was taken aback when Fergie was complementary to us when we lost at OT in April. My one concern with his spending is does he realise that the debt is a potential time bomb that needs addressing with prudence, something Wenger has done?

Great points, Scott. As exciting as youth is, a squad needs balance between youth and experience. I'm not sure Clichy and Traore as the two left-backs, Fabregas and Denilson both going for one creative CM role, Hoyte, Sagna and Eboue competing for right back, Song and Senderos fighting for a place on the bench for the central defense position is balanced at all. When United lost Vidic alongside Neville, they could call on Brown and Hargreaves and leave the Camp Nou with a clean sheet. Brown kept Eto'o quiet over the two semifinal legs. Senderos meanwhile was held respoinsible for Torres's goal at Anfield.

If I were Arsenal, I'd go out and buy two genuine wingers, an experienced defender, a replacement for Flamini and an experienced striker. Going out and buying a 17 year-old doesn't sound like good planning for next season, especially with Hleb and Flamini leaving. It just gives them another excuse for their fifth "learning" season.

It's been said on here many times before and I wish it was me that had come up with it in the first place, but it needs repeating for our gooner mates: there's no such thing as The Spent-The-Least-Money Cup!

Every year the board announces Wenger has money to spend, and every year he doesn't.

You call it "honour" and "principled", I just call it stupid, arrogant and maybe even simply ensuring that you all have a ready-made excuse when you don't succeed that "at least we didn't buy our success".

Funnily enough, all of our spending money derives, even if indirectly, from our success.

does anyone actually believe that if SAF really wanted ramsey he wouldn't have made a bigger effort to try to sign him? the man is not stupid. the kid is good but maybe not good enough, who knows, there are bigger fish to fry. also, if united was such a risky venture why would glazers get involved to begin with? again, they are smart businessmen and know what they are doing.

I think that the issue re player expenditure (United's) has to be taken into a degree of context. When Chelsea started to "buy" the league this was condemned by every supporter from every club as I remember, but United's expenditure over the last couple of seasons (Hargreaves, Carrick, Tevez, Nani, Anderson + Rooney, Ferdinand, there's 55m+) has created an impression that there are two clubs with the requisite financial muscle to compete against each other, creating a purchasing distance between them and the remaining sides in the league. I remember Chelsea fans said at the time that everyone was just jealous of the fact that they had the cash to buy the talent, but it seems to me that they're obviously not alone these days. Times have changed, what's good for the goose? When Chelsea were the only club able to dominate the transfer stakes it was out of order, now that United are spending comparable ammounts of cash to the Russians it's Arsenal's tough luck they haven't got the cash.

I'm an Arsenal fan. I liked the article. Well written and some very good points. You basically say two things - (1) We have more money to spend so we should spend it and (2) we recruit as much youth as Arsenal and should be credited for it. Both of those are fair contentions. However, I'll give two points in return.

(1) There is a huge difference between paying 15 million for Anderson at 19 and almost nothing for Cesc at 16, a huge difference between paying 5.5 million for Evra and 500,000 for Clichy, a huge difference between paying 18 million for Carrick and less than 2 million for Gilberto, Flamini and Song all together. Going further into debt for that excess is something you ought to at least think could be detrimental to your future...

...and (2) Buying young players who haven't turned the corner yet and helping them make that transition is not the same as buying high priced, well known young talent that has already made the step up. Tevez, Rooney et al were not DEVELOPED by Manchester. That's just silly.

Rome eventually had to fall. no kingdom lasts forever. So the red nosed better make the most use of time avavilable.The days when he can dominate are coming to an end soon. I wonder what will happen if the red dvs dont win anything for two years running.I can see a leeds in the making with the debt despite the enormous turnover.

Can I just say that Wesley Brown is fully capable of remaining Uniteds first choice right back and I hope that he does stay there. It seems so long since Nev played that I have forgotten how good he is...

Primachenko you ridiculously naive. The Glazers are safe, but Man Utd aren't, that is way they are happily involved. Whatever it was they paid for you, has now been taken out of the Club and debt put in so that when the Glazers are forced to sell (which they will be by 2014) they'll be laughing all the way to the bank having made about 800M profit!!

I never said doom and gloom!! Just that the Glazers are looking after their own interests and not the clubs. Given the amount of debt the club is in and the current financial climate, blowing £50M a Summer on transfers might not be prudent.

Stop taking everything as a personal attack, i'm just make an observation!

sorry for coming across as pissed, i'm not. you have a valid point, debt is never good. i just wonder how long it will be until that russian douche bag gets his way and turns arsenal into his cash cow. you have to admit, that trend in english football is not good no matter who it affects, united, arsenal, liverpool, or chelsea. i respect and like the way arsenal plays, long may it continue.

No problem. Fortunately our owners are for now committed to not selling and certainly not to Usmanov and Dein. Kroenke would be the more favourable option but that is further down the line.

Agreed that the foreign ownership/debt in english football is ridiculous especially in cases such as Utd and Liverpool, clubs easily big enough to survive on their own. Man Utd had no need to go in to debt whatsoever, it's literally just to line someone elses pockets, it shouldnt be allowed!

I hope Aaron Ramsey is now allowed to get on with his career in peace, he shouldnt have to defend turning down Utd for Arsenal, it's his own choice.

Good to see a feeling of mutual respect between the 2 fans...while i absolutely hated arsenal during the keane viera times i've grown to respect them and see them as worthy rivals..in fact i prefer them out of liverpool chelsea and city...and both clubs seem to be deveoping mutual respect towards each other..although i do resent the term arsenal play the nicest football in the EPL as i believe manchester do but thats jus my own biased opinion

what surprises me though is that while ferguson is always complaining that a club of our size shud have won more Champions Leagues Arsene seems perfectly happy with Arsenal's grand total of 0 ! another point i'd liek to make is that i'm startin to see arsenal as nearly men...i mean its no point developing youngsters if they're gna start leaving before their peak eg Flamini and possibly Adebayor..

what about the 15 million+ you spent on both Nani and Anderson and Ronaldo was over 12million

well anderson looks like being a world class player and has out played the much vaunted cesc on 2 occasions so £15m looks fine to me
as for ronaldo £12m for a guy who is the best player in the world now a snip
and if we do sell him your looking at a mark up of £60m which puts wenger anelka deal in the shade

as for wenger not spending money
Im not sure why gonners boast about this surely they should be asking why he isnt spending a few bob and winning trohies

1) There is a huge difference between paying 15 million for Anderson at 19 and almost nothing for Cesc at 16, a huge difference between paying 5.5 million for Evra and 500,000 for Clichy, a huge difference between paying 18 million for Carrick and less than 2 million for Gilberto, Flamini and Song all together. Going further into debt for that excess is something you ought to at least think could be detrimental to your future…

…and (2) Buying young players who haven’t turned the corner yet and helping them make that transition is not the same as buying high priced, well known young talent that has already made the step up. Tevez, Rooney et al were not DEVELOPED by Manchester. That’s just silly.

rooney at 18 was clearly the finished article
ditto for ronaldo, anderson etc

Carrick £16m and in his 2 years what has he won 2 pl titles and a cl
song and flamini won nowt in the last 2 years right or wrong?

gooners seem to convenintly forget the big money spent on jeffers reyes etc who all flopped

wenger maybe taking the easy option by only spending a few quid and then saying "look what i have spent next to untd and chelsea , no wonder they are above me"
sorry arsene you have by all accounts got the money now stop turning into another excuse maker like oleary "my team arejust kids etc" and either win things or admit you got it wrong

also there are plenty of players in that arsenal team who were seasoned internationals when they came to the cub
hleb roskicy gallas etc so stop playing the we pick em up as unknowns off tiny clubs line cos it isn;t true

anyone have any sources for all of this debt talk or are all the Arsenal fans suddenly accountants at OT?

Anyway does anyone actually think that going into default on the loan there won't be a businessman with the money to buy an asset at a knockdown price that churns out huge profits on a yearly basis?

Oh, and the guy talking about getting the numbers wrong above, if you actually read the post you might notice that Nani "got younger" because the second match Scott talked about was before the first one :)

I keep hearing this nonsense from Liverpool and Arsenal fans(i don't know which i hate more, i love Arsenal as a club, but i HATE the fans), saying their era has come and all that cr@p, i'm not surprised with Liverpool cus they've been saying the same for the last 5years

Maybe Arsenal fans think the other clubs are gonna stand still while they keep developing, thats probably why they're saying their era has come, no offence, but i see Liverpool making more of an impact next season than Arsenal. About the Ramsey situation, weren't there two French teenagers we signed earlier this year which Wenger was also in the running for, but didn't get? Arsenal fans didn't lose sleep over it and with Wenger's record with British players, we shouldn't be worried, i agree with the Birmingham fan who said in a few years, the kid will probably be sold to them.

Good luck to Ramsey at Arsenal, too bad there just isn't any luck there for him as a British player.

Had this arguments many times before. The fact is that Arsenal's kinds or Wenger's kids as some like to call it have all be bought, nothing like the youth that came through the ranks at United to win the treble a few years later. Calculate all the tranfers that are currently the Arsenal youth team and you would get a sum as high as £25-£30million while United's cost almost nothing.

I dunno y sum of you fans think youre experts on figures and debt and alike. I mean you dont know shit bout nothing of things like that. Even if United were in serios trouble,some billionaire would buy the club in a hearbeat. On ramsey....his loss not ours.