Danish

Well for one, isn't that after the person either admits guilt or is convicted?

Two, people don't have a vigilante/lynch mob mentality towards traffic ticket violators. If we heard the other guy's side of the story, and had proof that everything the OP says is correct, then that would be different. But come on, look at the big picture. All we have is the OP's word and the other guy isn't even here to give his side of it. Lynch mob mentality for the win, huh?

What if others on here were to contact the guy for a game of UNO to see if, in fact, he did behave in the same manner? My point is, there are other options beyond ostracizing the guy. Besides, I doubt he depends heavily on the GAF posting population for his UNO fetish.

Banned

What if others on here were to contact the guy for a game of UNO to see if, in fact, he did behave in the same manner? My point is, there are other options beyond ostracizing the guy. Besides, I doubt he depends heavily on the GAF posting population for his UNO fetish.

What? Yeah, I'm sure Bill Gates would love to hear Xbox live described as a brothel.

Look I set up an open xbox live game on an 'E-rated' game for 5 minutes just to show my sister how UNO works and you can play with others. I don't think it is fair for me to expect someone to immediately join the game and violate the terms of his xbox live account agreement by posting porn. That's like saying a woman wearing a cute dress who got raped 'deserved it because of the way she dressed.'.

Edit: Let me put it another way . . . if I brought my daughter into a big city like New York, London, or San Francisco and I was walking along the sidewalk and some guy walks up to us and shoves a porn magazine in our face . . . would you blame me for bringing my daughter to the city? Do I have to confine me daughter to the house?

I don't mind there being porn on the internet . . . but to fire up a child's card game on a game network and be subjected to it just isn't right. I don't blame Microsoft . . . actually I applaud the controls that they offer. It is more a statement as to the lack of basic civility of people. There are lots of PC applications out there that allow adults to expose themselves to each other. Go use them if that is what you want. There is no need to join an open children's card game and expose the other players to porn.

GAF tends to trust people who've been posting here a while? Is that particularly surprising? I don't know speculawyer personally but I've seen him around enough to feel he wouldn't make up something like this for shits and giggles.

Banned

GAF tends to trust people who've been posting here a while? Is that particularly surprising? I don't know speculawyer personally but I've seen him around enough to feel he wouldn't make up something like this for shits and giggles.

So you do admit that they were not intending on confirming guilt, but rather, they had a lynch mob mentality? It seems you went from suggesting that the gamertag was wanted for confirmation purposes to defending the act of assuming guilt.

Banned

A while back, a friend of mine's parents got married. Their house is pretty much a mansion, so when they went on their honeymoon, all of us lads moved in - about 12 of us. Enough space for everyone to sleep and stuff. The house was big enough that we played skirmish Counter-Strike style Terrorist vs Counter Terrorist games with airsoft guns. It was the greatest 4 weeks ever.

The living room was turned into a massive gaming room. 3 360s, 2 Wiis, 1 PS3, a spare TV for TVs, and 5 LAN'd Command & Conquer 3 PCs. It was badass. Everything is Live Enabled.

Anyway, so while we were all living there the girlfriends were visiting in order to give disapproving shakes of the head at the state of the house and whatnot and also of course to see their boyfriends. My mate's poor girlfriend once played Uno on Xbox Live with the camera on while we were all out at the store on a beer run.

She didn't know the camera was on, and amazed when one of the guys she was playing with sent her a message saying "Nice tits", then another saying "Take a look". The guy was lying in bed, took of his pants and just started masturbating. Best of all, he was still fucking playing the game, controller in one hand, penis in the other. Credit to her, she carried on playing until we got back so we could all laugh at him. We all ran in front of the camera and dropped our trousers. The sudden appearance of a collection of man meat as opposed to the big-breasted blonde meant instant boner loss for him, I'm sure. Even after this though he persisted in adding the account sending slightly scary sexual messages it..

Danish

So you do admit that they were not intending on confirming guilt, but rather, they had a lynch mob mentality? It seems you went from suggesting that the gamertag was wanted for confirmation purposes to defending the act of assuming guilt.

I'm suggesting that anything could happen. Some people here aren't massive dicks and will try to confirm what speculawyer is saying. GAFfers tend to be a bit more thorough than other people on forums. [Sales Age is a good indication of this.] Others will, yes, sadly try to figure out some way to hassle this guy.

I'm saying that speculawyer is one of us and thus gets some credence placed upon his word: That doesn't suddenly make us all sheep following his every comment. So what I'm suggesting is that my comment about people trying to confirm these antics is just as likely to happen as your 'lynch mob.' Either could happen. Neither could.

Well profiles on MySpace and Facebook are publicly available as well. And if I got this guy's name, I could look him up on Intelius and find every city he's ever lived in as well as the names of his relatives and their info  all of it is publicly available. But we're not supposed to post people's information like that on GAF when the intent is to ruin his life. At least, that's my understanding of the TOS.

Banned

I'm suggesting that anything could happen. Some people here aren't massive dicks and will try to confirm what speculawyer is saying. GAFfers tend to be a bit more thorough than other people on forums. [Sales Age is a good indication of this.] Others will, yes, sadly try to figure out some way to hassle this guy.

I'm saying that speculawyer is one of us and thus gets some credence placed upon his word: That doesn't suddenly make us all sheep following his every comment. So what I'm suggesting is that my comment about people trying to confirm these antics is just as likely to happen as your 'lynch mob.' Either could happen. Neither could.

Well then my point stands, because if there is a possibility of lynch-mob mentality then gamertags shouldn't be posted for that reason. If you ask what the problem with posting gamertags is, that is the answer. There are people out there that will have a lynch-mob mentality and try to hassle him with no proof. The fact that some people will be more reasonable doesn't negate the existence of the hasslers.

Danish

Well then my point stands, because if there is a possibility of lynch-mob mentality then gamertags shouldn't be posted for that reason. If you ask what the problem with posting gamertags is, that is the answer. There are people out there that will have a lynch-mob mentality and try to hassle him with no proof. The fact that some people will be more reasonable doesn't negate the existence of the hasslers.

Member

When I played Warhammer Online, we routinely would report anyone on forums for that particular server so others could immediately set them to ignore or know to watch out for them in scenario matches. What's the difference? The guy is openly sharing this with the public; if there are members of the public who would prefer not to see this, knowing his gamertag could prove beneficial depending on how long it takes MS to ban him.

When I played Warhammer Online, we routinely would report anyone on forums for that particular server so others could immediately set them to ignore or know to watch out for them in scenario matches. What's the difference? The guy is openly sharing this with the public; if there are members of the public who would prefer not to see this, knowing his gamertag could prove beneficial depending on how long it takes MS to ban him.

Usually what happened is that others would later confirm that, yes, so-and-so was doing that and that people should definitely ignore him / pay attention to his antics. This happened almost 85% of the time, I'd say.

What I'm advocating is giving people the option to take precautions given they hear someone has done something in the past and might very well do it again. I'm not saying anything is necessarily right. What I'm suggesting is that it's not wrong to warn people about a person doing something in some form of the public arena that they might not want to see / their children to see / their tween girls to see, etc.

Member

Your source actually provides evidence that unwarranted exposure is harmful and is mainly decrying the lack of research on the matter.

"On the other hand, there are findings from the study that do bolster
concern about harm: the ones showing that one quarter of those ex-
posed said they were very or extremely upset and one fifth had some
apparent stress symptoms that they connected to the episode."

Your quote starts with the words "on the other hand". Way to post one side of the study's conclusion. I'm not going to quote the whole thing again because the study itself is largely inconclusive. It begins by lamenting the lack of evidence on the subject, and ends with much the same sentiments. As I said in a follow up post, the study found 6% of children were 'distressed', but the researchers go on to say that they have no way to couch the distress level in context: is it comparable to abuse, or to a bad grade, etc. They conclude that their work can be interpreted either way: some children are distressed, porn exposure does harm; or remarkably few children are distressed and suffer no obvious trauma, porn exposure does no real harm.

My source decries lack of research on the matter and then brings little else to the table; thus supporting my original argument that no conclusive evidence for genuine harm exists either way.

...Which further confirms the reason I quoted the study in the first place: no real evidence exists that shows porn conclusively harms young children; which was the bullet point of the "read any study, it's obvious, get a clue" post I was replying to.

My original point was not "children are not distressed by porn, ever". It was simply that people overreact when it comes to sexuality without logical cause (see Mike B's posts), and more children are more likely to be 'harmed' by watching a violent or scare-mongering news reel.

Banned

Usually what happened is that others would later confirm that, yes, so-and-so was doing that and that people should definitely ignore him / pay attention to his antics. This happened almost 85% of the time, I'd say.

What I'm advocating is giving people the option to take precautions given they hear someone has done something in the past and might very well do it again. I'm not saying anything is necessarily right. What I'm suggesting is that it's not wrong to warn people about a person doing something in some form of the public arena that they might not want to see / their children to see / their tween girls to see, etc.

But going by the reactions on here, there were a lot of people who seemed ready for lynch-mob behavior. If the reaction on the other forum was mostly controlled and reasonable, then it's not comparable. A lot of people on here saw the part about the 3 year old, got angry, and mentally skipped the entire process of confirming guilt.

Danish

But going by the reactions on here, there were a lot of people who seemed ready for lynch-mob behavior. If the reaction on the other forum was mostly controlled and reasonable, then it's not comparable. A lot of people on here saw the part about the 3 year old, got angry, and mentally skipped the entire process of confirming guilt.

Fair enough. Personally, I see value in releasing his gamertag since it would allow me to put him on ignore and not take the chance that someone using my system - if I still had a 360 - would be forced to witness his nonsense. Ignoring him isn't going to cut into my enjoyment, nor his, in any way.

Banned

I have not reported the guy to the police nor will I. I don't want a lynch mob formed either.

However, if other people played games (or play games in the future) with him and encounter other such ToS violations, I'd certainly like it if those people reported the violations so Microsoft gets enough complaints to ban his account.

I just want people to enforce some reasonable degree of civility. I don't care if people swear like sailors on 'M' rated shooters. But joining an open E-rated children's card game and putting up porn when you full well know there are children playing? That is just not acceptable behavior.

I've had some great experiences playing online with my daughter around. I've been playing Little Big Planet and have had lots of fun. My daughter loves sackboy and has had fun talking to other sackboy characters online. (The voices of other players come through my speakers and my daughter's voice is picked up by the microphone on the PS3 camera.) It would be a shame if I had to completely stop playing online games due to an overabundance of cretins online.

Member

I have not reported the guy to the police nor will I. I don't want a lynch mob formed either.

However, if other people played games (or play games in the future) with him and encounter other such ToS violations, I'd certainly like it if those people reported the violations so Microsoft gets enough complaints to ban his account.

I just want people to enforce some reasonable degree of civility. I don't care if people swear like sailors on 'M' rated shooters. But joining an open E-rated children's card game and putting up porn when you full well know there are children playing? That is just not acceptable behavior.

I've had some great experiences playing online with my daughter around. I've been playing Little Big Planet and have had lots of fun. My daughter loves sackboy and has had fun talking to other sackboy characters online. (The voices of other players come through my speakers and my daughter's voice is picked up by the microphone on the PS3 camera.) It would be a shame if I had to completely stop playing online games due to an overabundance of cretins online.

I am completely with you.
I feel like the online generation is a bit out of touch with what you legally can and cannot do.
Just because you have ACCESS to pornography doesn't mean that you have the legal right to show it to someone who did not willingly choose to see it.

The same person wouldn't do it in a pizza place, nor would he/she yell racist/homphobic slurs (most likely).

I don't understand the people who think it's okay to be a total tool online.

Banned

Fair enough. Personally, I see value in releasing his gamertag since it would allow me to put him on ignore and not take the chance that someone using my system - if I still had a 360 - would be forced to witness his nonsense. Ignoring him isn't going to cut into my enjoyment, nor his, in any way.

Yeah, there's value in it (if he's guilty). It's just also risky in case he's not. For all we know, his side of the story could be any of the following:

1) I was on UNO and this guy was on there with his 3 year old daughter. As it turns out, another player in the game was his sister. They were totally trying to help each other out and beat me, but I won anyway. The guy wasn't so happy and cursed at me. Then he threatened to go online and post lies about me, that I did obscene things or something. Whatever.

2) I was on UNO with my friend. Also this guy and his 3 year old daughter was on there, with his sister. Anyway, I always play my favorite scene from '300' as part of a game ritual when I'm gaming. The scene represents my competitiveness. Well two gamers logged off immediately. My friend was laughing. I asked him what was so funny, and he told me that the resolution is so poor and the sound is so poor, that it looked like porn. It was actually a bunch of almost-naked Spartan guys battling it out, but he said it looked and sounded like they were humping. Yikes, I hope the other two players didn't think it was porn. I always try to be polite and considerate to my fellow gamers.

3) I logged onto UNO last night, and then immediately heard my 1 year old son crying. I left to go take care of him. When I came back, I found that my 7 year old cousin was playing porn into the camera! God, I hate that little rat! Anyway, I tried to apologize to the other gamers but they had already logged off.

Banned

Yeah, there's value in it (if he's guilty). It's just also risky in case he's not. For all we know, his side of the story could be any of the following:

1) I was on UNO and this guy was on there with his 3 year old daughter. As it turns out, another player in the game was his sister. They were totally trying to help each other out and beat me, but I won anyway. The guy wasn't so happy and cursed at me. Then he threatened to go online and post lies about me, that I did obscene things or something. Whatever.

2) I was on UNO with my friend. Also this guy and his 3 year old daughter was on there, with his sister. Anyway, I always play my favorite scene from '300' as part of a game ritual when I'm gaming. The scene represents my competitiveness. Well two gamers logged off immediately. My friend was laughing. I asked him what was so funny, and he told me that the resolution is so poor and the sound is so poor, that it looked like porn. It was actually a bunch of almost-naked Spartan guys battling it out, but he said it looked and sounded like they were humping. Yikes, I hope the other two players didn't think it was porn. I always try to be polite and considerate to my fellow gamers.

3) I logged onto UNO last night, and then immediately heard my 1 year old son crying. I left to go take care of him. When I came back, I found that my 7 year old cousin was playing porn into the camera! God, I hate that little rat! Anyway, I tried to apologize to the other gamers but they had already logged off.

Danish

Yes, dionusos, anything remotely conceivable could've happened, but again - my putting his account on ignore has no negative bearing on my gaming, nor his. Besides, I've played on Live. There are a LOT of assholes using that service, so I find any of those stories to be a little unlikely. In other words, I'd be playing the odds - I lose nothing from putting him on ignore and might be saving myself some annoyance in the future.

Banned

Yes, dionusos, anything remotely conceivable could've happened, but again - my putting his account on ignore has no negative bearing on my gaming, nor his. Besides, I've played on Live. There are a LOT of assholes using that service, so I find any of those stories to be a little unlikely. In other words, I'd be playing the odds - I lose nothing from putting him on ignore and might be saving myself some annoyance in the future.

But like I said, based on responses here, it doesn't look like everyone was going to do the exact same thing you were going to do. Some have already tried looking up as much info about him as they can.

Danish

But like I said, based on responses here, it doesn't look like everyone was going to do the exact same thing you were going to do. Some have already tried looking up as much info about him as they can.

So it's better to assume the best of a random Live user and give him the opportunity to offend many others rather than give them the means to proactively take precautions? Again, I've been on the service; I've experienced the sort of people that frequent it. Unless you're playing with people you know who aren't douches, you are ordinarily overwhelmed by them. That's been my experience. So I have no doubt about what speculawyer stated and feel less inclined to imagine some scenario in which the guy is 'oh gosh, never meant that to happen' 'cause I've come across similar things on the service from people who clearly intended to pull what is essentially a goatse on others.

Banned

So it's better to assume the best of a random Live user and give him the opportunity to offend many others rather than give them the means to proactively take precautions? Again, I've been on the service; I've experienced the sort of people that frequent it. Unless you're playing with people you know who aren't douches, you are ordinarily overwhelmed by them. That's been my experience. So I have no doubt about what speculawyer stated and feel less inclined to imagine some scenario in which the guy is 'oh gosh, never meant that to happen' 'cause I've come across similar things on the service from people who clearly intended to pull what is essentially a goatse on others.

Yes, it is better. Innocent until proven guilty. If the OP ran into a guy playing porn, the OP can report and be done with it. No need for others who didn't witness the event to go and report something they can't verify happened.

The system of just posting gamertags online so multiple people can report/do things allows for anyone that has been posting for a while to just 'out' any xBox Live user they feel like. No matter how honest and truthful the OP is, that system is simply too easy to abuse, considering the possibilities I mentioned above. If we trust that the OP is honest and wouldn't lie (and I'm sure after a while of him posting, you have good reason to trust him), that still leaves possibilities #2 and #3 or anything similar.

Danish

At what point did I advocate that the dude get put on trial? I'm not interested in him being convicted of a crime, I'm taking the very good odds that he's merely a douche that I'd prefer never having to deal with and ignoring him.

If the OP ran into a guy playing porn, the OP can report and be done with it. No need for others who didn't witness the event to go and report something they can't verify happened.

Again, this depends on how quickly MS can verify the facts and ban him if he is doing something wrong. Yes, the system can be abused, but if some random Junior Member were to post the same thing, I don't think we'd be as prone to believe him.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, 'cause I think using 'innocent until proven guilty' as an argument is a bit much when it comes to this situation.

Banned

At what point did I advocate that the dude get put on trial? I'm not interested in him being convicted of a crime, I'm taking the very good odds that he's merely a douche that I'd prefer never having to deal with and ignoring him.

Again, this depends on how quickly MS can verify the facts and ban him if he is doing something wrong. Yes, the system can be abused, but if some random Junior Member were to post the same thing, I don't think we'd be as prone to believe him.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, 'cause I think using 'innocent until proven guilty' as an argument is a bit much when it comes to this situation.

I know you weren't talking about convicting him. I was saying the concept of innocent until proven guilty should also apply when it comes to people trying to get a guy banned from a service that he paid for.

And the reason why you think 'innocent until guilty' is too much is because you're assuming everyone won't go any further than you will (just ignoring the guy). If that was the case I would just agree with you and I would even ENCOURAGE posting gamertags.

But reading the responses, others on here were poised to do more than that as I have repeatedly pointed out. When it gets to the point where people are trying to:

1) look up as much personal info on him as they can
2) get him banned from a service he paid for
3) someone even suggested reporting it to the police

We have no LEGAL constraint, but ethics are a matter of opinion. So whether or not we are held to an ethical constraint is also a matter of opinion. In my opinion, the consideration of any action that affects the accused like getting him banned from XBL, should mean "innocent until proven guilty."

I think it comes down to the fact that I don't believe they're actually going to do anything. People on the net always run to extremes in conversations, saying they'll do this or that, when the truth is, most won't do anything at all. I can't see people truly taking so much time out of their lives to pursue this person when you have to meander through thousands of others like him routinely whilst online. People with any online history are notoriously desensitized to this sort of thing: This doesn't cause any more blip on their radar than any other online sexual deviancy.

Banned

I think it comes down to the fact that I don't believe they're actually going to do anything. People on the net always run to extremes in conversations, saying they'll do this or that, when the truth is, most won't do anything at all. I can't see people truly taking so much time out of their lives to pursue this person when you have to meander through thousands of others like him routinely whilst online. People with any online history are notoriously desensitized to this sort of thing: This doesn't cause any more blip on their radar than any other online sexual deviancy.

Well I hope you're right (unless we get confirmation of guilt). But also if a bunch of members on here just reported the guy on XBL, that might be enough to ban him... that's why I think we need to hold our horses here. You should only report people you have personally witnessed doing something wrong. 1 guy witnesses something he thinks is wrong (but might be a complete misunderstanding altogether, like possibilities #2 or #3 I mentioned), and he tells a forum full of people. Then that forum full of people all report the guy, and I could easily see MS banning him after seeing that many reports from users.