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Just replying to an old post if you don't mind. I'm sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience. I'll just like to share that I had a very different experience altogether at the Millenia branch. I was served by this middle-aged dealer, very professional and polite. Mind you, I wasn't dressed formally, was in my weekend gear of t-shirt, berms and flip flops. She could have chased me out of the showroom if she had wanted to.

So I put my hands on the grands, even the Steinway, although I was clearly aware of my financial limitations. Played pieces by Bach, Mozart, Chopin, Schubert - she did not restrict me to the number of pieces that I could try, but encouraged me to take my time. I was very pleased by her professional service.

I was also well served by the lady at Hailun. She wasn't imposing and was informal, which made me comfortable. I spent almost 2 hrs in the showroom trying all the different models.

Would like to share a tip here though. When trying on a piano, play a classical piece instead of pop music (read richard claydeman), even if it means a grade 1 or grade 2 classical piece, it is ok. Some dealers tend to judge you by the type of music you play, or even your repertoire.

Have fun piano shopping. I certainly enjoyed mine. [/b]-------------------------------------------------My last hunt stop there, of course i wont mind hearing more I think we met the same nice lady at Millenia branch. She's a great pianist too. I wrote this post becoz i was taken aback by 2 diff type of experience fm same coy. I may go back to her although still hesitating after the very unpleasant experience at the other side.

Basically no one will shun expert players coz they wont deter them from producing good music from their sets. May i ask what conclusion will they get by judging type of music played?

No much choice as i only know very limted pieces.anyhow anyhow play so long its something bearable. dun care la

Sorry I should have qualified that statement. I am talking about a heater bar in a grand that is closed AND covered most of the time. That is slapper's context, which does not appear to be typical for Singapore.

I put wireless RH sensors in my K-8 at the bottom of the case and near the action. There really wasn't much of a difference with the heater bar on and off. Just a couple of degrees and on average about 2 - 3% RH difference. So I just turn it off, and trust my general environmental RH control with airconditioning.

[Edit: The difference between the RH sensor near the action and the one outside the K-8 is typically max 5%, not the 10% that you mention. It could be that the K-8 has a large vent at the bottom edge of the upper front panel, that allows more of the outside air to get into the piano. The RH difference could be greater with other pianos that do not have any vents.]

So what I've experienced with my K-8 confirms what I have heard from knowledgeable techs, that leaving the heater bar on in a typical Singapore home is just fine. Actually I suspect that one of the key things about an always-on heater bar is the fact that it causes air to circulate, with some fresh air being drawn into the case.

Well the effectiveness is not proportionaly linear. Like the torque vs rpm curve of a car engine .. hehehe

If day is very humid like after rain then sun comes out sparkling.. no wind.. ok, RH can be 95%. But a aircon room may still be at the low side RH65%. At this 2 extreme, the heater rod can't perform the same, it is relative. Maybe at 95% it can reduce to 85%. At 80%, it can reduce to 72%. At 65%, if cant reduce much, maybe to 60%. You know what i mean?

Anyway heater rod is good to prevent fishy smell too Have you ever open the top lid of a piano whose heater kapoof many years ago?

So the general sense is, if room is aircon, heater rod is optional. If no aircon, keep heater on better. Is this advise ok?

Originally posted by snoopycar:So the general sense is, if room is aircon, heater rod is optional. If no aircon, keep heater on better. [/b]

I think that's a good general rule for the tropics. And even if the room is airconditioned it might make sense to have the heater bar turned on from time to time. I used to do that with the K-8, leaving the heater bar on for a day or two a week. A timer switch will make it convenient to have the heater bar on for a couple of hours a day. Available from hardware stores in malls and maybe also your neighbourhood electrical store.

Sauter's recommendation is to control the RH of the piano's environment, and NOT to put a heater bar in the piano, regardless of whether its a grand or upright.

Hi Digitus,Can we then infer that Sauter does not recommend placing a humidity control device in the piano, but does recommend controlling the relative humidity of the room in which the piano is placed? It makes good sense to me. Heater bars going on and off suggest fluctuations in humidity near the critical components of the instrument.These changes or fluctuations can do permanent damage.

The first is the control of RH on a long-term basis, where the micro-climate around the piano should vary as little as possible, ON AVERAGE, over weeks/months.

The second is the fact that there will be short-term RH variation on a daily basis. In my case, for example, if I have friends over and the aircon is on for a few hours, the RH can drop down to the low 40's. But once the aircon has been turned off the RH slowly creeps back up to between 65 to 70% over the course of a few hours. In any case, Sauter (and I guess most other manufacturers of 'tropicalised' pianos) use a varnish on their soundboards that dramatically slows down moisture absorption. So short-term RH variation is typically not an issue.

Sometimes it spikes up to the high 70's say when I open the patio doors to go do some work on the potted plants, or if the exhaust fans in the kitchen have been on for a while and outside air is being slowly drawn through the small gap under the front door. But getting it back down to the 65-70% range is simply a matter of turning on the aircon for about 30 minutes or so.

The third aspect is the need for air circulation within and around the piano, to prevent pockets of dampness from forming for extended periods of time. If you play your piano regularly then there is usually no problem. But if your piano is closed for a lot of the time (such as in slapper's case) having a heater bar turn on and off is probably a good idea because it induces some circulation around the action and to an extent the keys. You will also need air circulation around a piano, particular if it is backed up close to a wall.

And yes Sauter prefers control of the room's micro-climate rather than in-piano heaters or humidifiers.

I spoke at some length with Ulrich Sauter about RH control and pianos, and his basic message is to just use your common sense. There is no need to panic or be paranoid. Some short-term variation is perfectly fine, even the large ones that I experience in my home. It's not as if your piano will fall to pieces or seize up unless its really abused. Pianos, if well made, are actually very hardy and resilient things.

It will make sense, here in Sg to climate control the room where the piano sit, especially an costly piano. Aircon set a de-humidifier mode, lets estimate the montly cost about $45, est $1.5 per day. I think its more worth it, and you get to play in a cooling enviroment. Without aircon, the fan, whether ceiling or floor fan, create a noise and reverbrating sound refection, can be annoying. With aircon, provided your blower unit doesn't give out the yakyakyak noisy rotor fan problem, you can hear and savoy the tone/rich timbre, and fall into a nano second dream of being in German - and the yummy giant pork leg set meal....

And you get to prolong the "new" effects, strings won't tarnish(as fast), especially the shinning bass... get the fresh wood/glue smell...cat stay cool, less hyper active cat means less trouble, mischieve. Maximun life span, enhance resale value(oops, i know you will never sell your darling omega).

Digitus:And we like to visit your omega in a cool shiok aircon room too, do we need to bring ang-pow?And gucci-gucci your 2 cats...

Snoopycar: Aircon should be set to normal 'cool' mode. In dehumidifer mode you will die from suffocation!

Dedicated standalone dehumidifers are generally not a good idea in the tropics because the room becomes very stuffy and you have to empty the water container.

By the way, while writing the previous post, the aircon techs were here to do their quarterly servicing of the aircons in my flat. The aircons in the living/dining area were on for about an hour and the RH has dropped to 55% already. The temperature is at a very comfortable 27 degC.

Originally posted by Digitus: But if your piano is closed for a lot of the time (such as in slapper's case) having a heater bar turn on and off is probably a good idea because it induces some circulation around the action and to an extent the keys. You will also need air circulation around a piano, particular if it is backed up close to a wall.

[/b]

Thanks for all the useful feedback. Mine is probably an exceptional case. Not sure if it helps if I turn the heater on during days when the house is empty, and turning it off when I am around.

I also notice that the Sauter has a little meter device fixed inside the grand, is that used to measure the RH? Where can I get one of those for my RX?

I read you post with a smile. Everything is relative. FOr you 27degC is comfortable, but nearly 81 is too hot for me. My house is normally 68-70 (20 or so). My humidty runs about 45% this time of the year without A/c.

Last night's outside air temperature was about 46 (about 8)

Regards,

Gene

_________________________
"The creative mind plays with the object it loves." -- Carl Jung

Originally posted by Digitus: But if your piano is closed for a lot of the time (such as in slapper's case) having a heater bar turn on and off is probably a good idea because it induces some circulation around the action and to an extent the keys. You will also need air circulation around a piano, particular if it is backed up close to a wall.

[/b]

Thanks for all the useful feedback. Mine is probably an exceptional case. Not sure if it helps if I turn the heater on during days when the house is empty, and turning it off when I am around.

I also notice that the Sauter has a little meter device fixed inside the grand, is that used to measure the RH? Where can I get one of those for my RX? [/b]

Is that living room airconditioned? If yes then I think it is far better for you to program the aircon to turn on for an hour or two a day. How long exactly you will have to establish by using a RH meter with min/max memory. Since the living room is closed up for the week (and assuming you don't have windows and doors with poor seals) then you should be OK.

You can also put the heater bar on a timer switch and have it turn on for 2 - 3 hours a day.

The device you see inside Sauter grands is indeed a factory fitted RH meter.

What you need is one of the wireless min/max RH/temp meters made by companies like Oregon Scientific. They are OK to start with. The only problem with them is that you don't know how well calibrated the RH sensors are. That's why I also run a similar thing from Radio Shack and a cheapo unit from HandyFix, and take the average.

RH sensors have to be calibrated at least once a year. Being a somewhat uhhh an*l person I am investigating getting industrial-grade wireless RH/temp sensors with logging capability. Costs $$$ though.

When I first came back to Singapore after living in a temperate climate for almost a dozen years, it took me about 6 - 9 months to get my body reset. The quickest way to do it is to go do exercise in the evening heat, take a cool shower, and then sit down under or in front of an electric fan with a cool one in hand.

Actually the relatively hairless human body is not made to live in cold climates. The tropics are best!

Originally posted by Digitus: I put wireless RH sensors in my K-8 at the bottom of the case and near the action. There really wasn't much of a difference with the heater bar on and off. Just a couple of degrees and on average about 2 - 3% RH difference.

[Edit: The difference between the RH sensor near the action and the one outside the K-8 is typically max 5%, not the 10% that you mention. It could be that the K-8 has a large vent at the bottom edge of the upper front panel, that allows more of the outside air to get into the piano. The RH difference could be greater with other pianos that do not have any vents.]

So what I've experienced with my K-8 confirms what I have heard from knowledgeable techs, that leaving the heater bar on in a typical Singapore home is just fine. Actually I suspect that one of the key things about an always-on heater bar is the fact that it causes air to circulate, with some fresh air being drawn into the case. [/b]

Hi Digitus, my experience is quite different. The difference in RH between my piano environment and inside the cabinet (just below the keyboard) is quite high nowadays. The enviroment's temp and RH is about 30 degrees celsius and 74-76% while inside the cabinet it is around 33 degree celsius and 61-62% (sometimes even lower at around 58-59%). It could be due to the piano not having sound vents that lets air to pass through though.

I believe that you don't have anything to worry about, particularly if those conditions do not vary much.

I once asked Fazioli (through their dealer) for clarification about whether or not their warranty would still be valid in the tropics. This is because on their website I read that the warranty is valid only for conditions that are very hard to attain here in Singapore:

Quote:

"Installation or use of the piano in climatically uncontrolled rooms. Ideal conditions are: relative air humidity within 45 and 65 percent; air temperature close to 20° (68° F)."

Fazioli wrote back:

Quote:

If after you install the damp chaser, but the Fazioli piano will still in consistent environment temperature 30C°, humidity level about 75% (difference from our warranty card clause no.4), we still give 5 years warranty to the customer (provided you install the Damp chaser).

Well, the only part of the D-C that would ever be running are the heater bars. And in a climatically uncontrolled room (such as yours, for example) the heater bars can only take the RH inside the piano down to about 65% or so.

So if your piano is from a manufacturer that knows how to make 'tropicalised' soundboards (moisture-resistant varnish on soundboard, modern glues for ribs), what you are seeing in your environment looks to me to be perfectly fine.

Hi, everyone!snoopycar brought me here.Has been trying hard to read this whole thread but in the end, i mess up all the things.Anyway, i am in search of a piano in Malaysia, in Negeri Sembilan or Selangor.most probably is an upright, but may get a grand if the price is very reasonable.i have not set any budget but generally it won't go more than RM10,000. Thus, chances of a grand will be very low.As the budget implies, very high chance i will get myself a used piano.I am particularly interested with the European brands discussed in the forum.Nonetheless, I have not even met one and thus don't know whether it will be great or not.it is known that european brand has no second hand value in our market.. thus i might get a good piano at a lower cost, compared to the dominating brand (yamaha and kawai) in malaysia.anyone can help me locate any great seller near my region (negeri sembilan or selangor will be great), possibly that sells european brand.thanks in advance..

~well, i don't know my entry will be weird or not. maybe this is not the way to post in this thread, but i seriously need help LAH~~

I don't play the piano but my girl is starting on it. I am looking at buying a piano for the family. As I know nothing much about piano, I do not have the confidence of getting a used one. I am actually thinking of a new kawai k3? Any comments on it? I have not decided as I think the price is rather high and my girl is just a beginner. I have heard the piano and I like it - but then again, I am a novice at this.On the other hand, I am hoping to get a good piano, once and for all, that will last a long time... hopefully, my other younger gal will also get to enjoy it. I am even thinking of attending adult courses so that I can play on it myself! Another brand on my mind is Bohemia. Is there anyone here who can comment on this too? I have not been to the showrm to hear this but I heard some good comments from a friend and some trs. If you were me, which would you choose?

In my opinion, since you are buying it for your daughter, it will be safer if you go for a used one. you can always hire a technician to check on the used piano you are interested with.the reason i think buying a used piano will be more suitable because there is a chance that your daughter will discontinue learning it (just maybe).Furthermore, i think there will be no big difference for you and your daughter between a new and a used one. (sorry for being bit realistic)When your daughter has the ability to distinguish the difference between the two, then it will be suitable for you to get her a new one. For her to be able to do something like that, probably she is very serious for her music already.

For now, buy a used piano under advice of a technician/piano tuner etc. when your daughter is serious on it, then getting her a grand piano isn't it a great idea if it's within your budget.

On the other hand, I am hoping to get a good piano, once and for all, that will last a long time... hopefully, my other younger gal will also get to enjoy it.

"good" is a huge word, and "last a long time" is a long time, and I see "Singapore" and think "apartment / flat dweller" and wonder about neighbors and have you considered digital?

Someone else on this board was considering buying a piano in the vicinity of $43,000 USD. Suspect you may not yet be in that price range. OTOH, you may also not be anywhere near the ability to know what you really like or want.

Are you in a position to borrow or rent?

+1 on the idea of finding something AFFORDABLE for the first year, until you and your family discover whether this is indeed the instrument for you. (I am reminded of my mother's experience with stained glass, which she loves, but discovered she can't abide the sound of cutting glass.) What if it turns out you are raising cello players?

Back to digital: headphones allow practice at any time of day. Presuming you do live in an apartment or have neighbors to consider, or even other family members, will your life allow three people to get their practice time in during "public" hours?

Hi. thanks for the comments. A digital is out for me as I am considering a piano. My girl has completed her two years of junior course at a music sch and is asking to continue with piano learning. we have been using a portable keyboard for the past two years.

Yes, a used one can be good enough. but we are think of getting a new one. two girls will be learning. in the event of them really not wanting to play, then i will prob sell it off.

I have faced exactly the same dilemna as you. I have a son (8 years old) and daughter (5 years old) now. When we started them on piano and music appreciation classes about 1 year+ ago, we didn't know whether their interests would sustain, which make the decision of buying a piano a difficult decision. Moreover, my wife and I do not play the piano and we have the salesman at Cristofori, where my children are learning to play the piano, pushing us to get one. They said it is better to get a proper piano as this would help them progress. Although I have no doubt about that, the "hard sell" could be quite disconcerting.

What we did is take our time. I think you should too. As have been advised numerous times in this forum, audition as many pianos as possible and let your children have a feel on those you are considering.

Depending on your budget, there are many choices out there. If you want a new piano and do not want to spend too much, you could consider pianos made in China, Korea or Indonesia. Although there are many pianos made in China nowadays, not all are of the same quality.

One of the piano you would like to consider is the Hailun. If you have the time, do a search of "Hailun" in this forum and you can get quite a lot of info. It seems to be one of the better-made Chinese pianos and have recently been upgraded in Larry Fine's Piano Book in the latest update (by the way, I got this info from this forum). You can view the piano at PianoMaster at Geylang East. They also carry other brands, like the Wendl & Lung 122 Universal that I bought eventually. This piano is made at the same factory as Hailun, but it is wholly Austrian-owned, and cost about 10% higher than a similar Hailun. We made our decision after auditioning it for close to 3 hours and also let our son try it. They also sell used pianos but I did not check them out as I am "not confident" of getting one due to my lack of knowledge and experience.

You can also veiw a wide range of pianos at Cristofori where they carry Pearl River, Samick, Young Chang and many established brands that may be out of your budget. They also sell used pianos at their Bedok branch. If you are looking for a new piano, they also have a branch at Funan Centre, which may be more convenient for you to visit.