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Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

Let's back up a bit here. A lot of people seem to have accepted the argument that Cam's offense does not use a 3rd WR to any significant effect and that the FB position is more important in that offense. That argument isn't just true on its face. In 2009, Kelley Washington had 34 catches out of the #3 WR spot and was very productive when he was on the field. In 2010 a broken down TJ Houshmandzadeh had 30 catches out of the #3 WR spot and was fairly productive despite being a shell of himself.

In 2011, we DID use a #3 WR, only he wasn't listed as a WR on the depth chart. His name is Dennis Pitta, and he had 54 catches while lining up at slot WR 70% of the time he was on the field. So the argument that "Cam won't use a 3rd WR anyway" is just plain wrong--I think Cam is one of the worst OCs in the NFL, but don't level charges against him that are just patently false. He has used a 3rd WR when that player has been an adequate contributor.

This offense still uses a FB more than any other team, but all that means is that the FB is on the field 50% of the time instead of 30% of the time. The playing-time divide between the FB and the #3 WR (or #2 TE as the case may be) is probably a lot closer than you think.

And by the way, I'm not sure the 11 million the Ravens spent on Leach would have been best spent on a WR anyway. I think that money would have been better spent on OL.

How often do the 49ers use a fullback? I haven't looked into it but I would guess that if there is 1 team left that need a real crushing fullback it would be them.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

The Ravens offensive line was one of the top units in 09, I don't know what line you where watching. They where close to winning that Madden award too if I can recall. Michael Oher was a rookie, but I don't see this as a valid argument, because that was clearly his best year in the league, and he was one the top right tackles that year. Chester was also a pretty solid player at guard that year. Btw Marshall Yanda was actually a really good right tackle in 2010, so again I don't know what you where watching.

Ranked in the top 5 from various grading/scouting places in 2009, then dropped big time in 2010.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by TheJoeFlaccoShow

Ranked in the top 5 from various grading/scouting places in 2009, then dropped big time in 2010.

I think our main problem is our tackles. Since Gaither left we haven't had a great left tackle in 2010 or 2011, Oher wasn't great in 2011 either. We have had a really talented interior line with Grubbs, Birk, and Yanda too, but even Grubbs and Birk have had their bad games here and there in the past two seasons. The problem for the Ravens is that finding a top left tackle is very hard for two main reasons. We never pick in the top ten, and never have the cap room to sign a big time free agent left tackle.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

This is not a difficult concept. Rice produced a lot of rushing yards last year, but he produced less with each opportunity than he did in 2009. It's a question of per-play effectiveness. He was over a half yard per carry (.6 to be exact) better in 2009 than 2011, which is a huge divide...
That's (one piece of) the statistical answer to your question. As for what our eyes are actually seeing on the field, Ray Rice was good last year, but he had noticeable flaws to his game. He didn't produce in short yardage, he frequently didn't follow his blocks well, and he went down on first contact far more than in past years. I don't know what else to tell you.

I understand what yards-per-carry implies, thank you.

Isn't all of that explainable by the delta between our O-line in 2009 and 2011? We had good O-line play in 2009, not so good in 2011. McKinnie was very iffy, Grubbs was out for 6 games, Gurode was terrible, Oher was inconsistent, etc. O-line play has a huge impact on yards-per-carry.

Not sure how what you're talking about has anything to do with Cameron's offense. Rice played in Cameron's offense in 2011, when he led the league in yards from scrimmage; and also in 2009, when you say he was better. I don't see how you conclude from this that Rice would be better in some other offense.

The offense seems perfect for Rice's talents. This really shouldn't even need to be said, since Rice led the NFL in yards from scrimmage this year, was 3rd last year, and 2nd the year before. Three consec seasons in the top 3 in yards-from-scrimmage: obviously the offense is well set up for Rice to be successful. The thing speaks for itself.

But the Gillman-Coryell-Saunders-Zampese-Norv offense has always been perfect for that kind of running back, the dual threat rush/receive guy. Look at Marshall Faulk's success in St Louis, and Priest Holmes' success in Kansas City. The same kind of running backs in the exact same offense, putting up big numbers. Also some guy named Tomlinson in San Diego.

I don't see how anyone could say Rice would be more effective in some other offensive system. Seems obvious he's likely be much less effective in another system. Maybe he'd more effective surrounded with other offensive personnel; but that's different.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by JimZipCode

I understand what yards-per-carry implies, thank you.

Isn't all of that explainable by the delta between our O-line in 2009 and 2011? We had good O-line play in 2009, not so good in 2011. McKinnie was very iffy, Grubbs was out for 6 games, Gurode was terrible, Oher was inconsistent, etc. O-line play has a huge impact on yards-per-carry.

Not sure how what you're talking about has anything to do with Cameron's offense. Rice played in Cameron's offense in 2011, when he led the league in yards from scrimmage; and also in 2009, when you say he was better. I don't see how you conclude from this that Rice would be better in some other offense.

The offense seems perfect for Rice's talents. This really shouldn't even need to be said, since Rice led the NFL in yards from scrimmage this year, was 3rd last year, and 2nd the year before. Three consec seasons in the top 3 in yards-from-scrimmage: obviously the offense is well set up for Rice to be successful. The thing speaks for itself.

But the Gillman-Coryell-Saunders-Zampese-Norv offense has always been perfect for that kind of running back, the dual threat rush/receive guy. Look at Marshall Faulk's success in St Louis, and Priest Holmes' success in Kansas City. The same kind of running backs in the exact same offense, putting up big numbers. Also some guy named Tomlinson in San Diego.

I don't see how anyone could say Rice would be more effective in some other offensive system. Seems obvious he's likely be much less effective in another system. Maybe he'd more effective surrounded with other offensive personnel; but that's different.

I think people mean, he would probably be better fitted for a WCO, where he can catch the ball more in the backfield. But again I think he is just as good fit in the Coryell offense, its just arguing against plain logic when he was first second and third in the league in total yards. And yeah I do think the Ravens need to get better on the offensive line, maybe a legit left tackle would help.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

The Ravens offensive line was one of the top units in 09, I don't know what line you where watching. They where close to winning that Madden award too if I can recall. Michael Oher was a rookie, but I don't see this as a valid argument, because that was clearly his best year in the league, and he was one the top right tackles that year. Chester was also a pretty solid player at guard that year. Btw Marshall Yanda was actually a really good right tackle in 2010, so again I don't know what you where watching.

So Michael Oher as a rookie is a better RT than Michael Oher the 3rd year player? Andy Chester the guard in 2009 was a far better guard than Chester the guard that was terrible in 2010? Yanda was coming off Major knee surgery in 2010 and could not get on the field until game 6 after missing the entire off season.

Granted the oline is poorly coached but laying it at the feet of the Oline only is a cop out. Watching the games last year it was clear that the Ravens were not a good running team. They were terrible on short yardage and that came back to haunt them in the playoffs. You can try to explain it away that it was all on the oline and Rice and Leach were great but in reality they are all culpable. If you want a refresher of just how mediocre it was just go back and watch the first 3 series of the New England game. Could not run the ball a lick against one of the worst defenses in the league.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by srobert96

So Michael Oher as a rookie is a better RT than Michael Oher the 3rd year player? Andy Chester the guard in 2009 was a far better guard than Chester the guard that was terrible in 2010? Yanda was coming off Major knee surgery in 2010 and could not get on the field until game 6 after missing the entire off season.

Granted the oline is poorly coached but laying it at the feet of the Oline only is a cop out. Watching the games last year it was clear that the Ravens were not a good running team. They were terrible on short yardage and that came back to haunt them in the playoffs. You can try to explain it away that it was all on the oline and Rice and Leach were great but in reality they are all culpable. If you want a refresher of just how mediocre it was just go back and watch the first 3 series of the New England game. Could not run the ball a lick against one of the worst defenses in the league.

I don't care who did what in what year, facts are the Oline was one of the TOP units around in 09, ranked by many scouting websites, and my own damn eyes. Was Oher better in his rookie season than he was in 2011? Yes he was. Now I don't know why, maybe the system was better suited for our players in that year, maybe it was because we had a talented left tackle on the team at the time (granted he missed a fair amount of 2009).

Play offs are different, and you can QUITE clearly see that the Oline was god awful in that game. Our offensive line was man handled through out that game, and Leach or Rice didn't have any room to work with at all. Thank god Flacco, our receivers, and defense stepped up, because we would have been leaving Foxboro with a much different score line that what it was. Or maybe it's better losing that way, rather than coming within a stripped pass, and a missed 32 yard field goal of making the SB.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by srobert96

So Michael Oher as a rookie is a better RT than Michael Oher the 3rd year player? Andy Chester the guard in 2009 was a far better guard than Chester the guard that was terrible in 2010? Yanda was coming off Major knee surgery in 2010 and could not get on the field until game 6 after missing the entire off season.

Granted the oline is poorly coached but laying it at the feet of the Oline only is a cop out. Watching the games last year it was clear that the Ravens were not a good running team. They were terrible on short yardage and that came back to haunt them in the playoffs. You can try to explain it away that it was all on the oline and Rice and Leach were great but in reality they are all culpable. If you want a refresher of just how mediocre it was just go back and watch the first 3 series of the New England game. Could not run the ball a lick against one of the worst defenses in the league.

The Ravens were 10th in the league rushing but I would agree that we stunk it up on short yardage.
Our OLine would get blown up. That tells me either our guys are not physically strong enough (which I don't think is the case) or defenses were getting lower and getting underneath our linemen.
Or is it the blocking scheme does not put our Oline in the best position to succeed?

Frankly, I would have come out throwing against the Pats from the very first play with a fake to Rice...but that's another story all together. The Pats were 31st in the league against the pass but 17th against the rush.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by Ravens44

The Ravens were 10th in the league rushing but I would agree that we stunk it up on short yardage.
Our OLine would get blown up. That tells me either our guys are not physically strong enough (which I don't think is the case) or defenses were getting lower and getting underneath our linemen.
Or is it the blocking scheme does not put our Oline in the best position to succeed?

Frankly, I would have come out throwing against the Pats from the very first play with a fake to Rice...but that's another story all together. The Pats were 31st in the league against the pass but 17th against the rush.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Everyone knows our offensive line is new to the ZBS, and that in reallity our offensive line aren't built for it. Most of our players are big maulers who would be better to just move the opposite player out of the way. But I guess if you continue to add more athletic linemen like Gradkowski and Jah Reid, then you're eventually going to see an effective ZBS.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Everyone knows our offensive line is new to the ZBS, and that in reallity our offensive line aren't built for it. Most of our players are big maulers who would be better to just move the opposite player out of the way. But I guess if you continue to add more athletic linemen like Gradkowski and Jah Reid, then you're eventually going to see an effective ZBS.

You know I was kinda thinking that, but it really doesn't make sense to fit a square peg in a round hole, and than trim a bit off that square peg during a SB run. Meaning neither may even see the field this year. So stick with the mauling with the maulers you have and when their ready than switch.

In any case this thread has gotten way out of hand lol. Bottom line, for the price NO we don't need Leach. Does he make our team better? Sure and yep. We coud really end the thread right there.