bantler wrote:All the normal places made it illegal. All of them. It's basic human dignity and doesn't equate with racist or bigoted laws.

No, bantler. Degrading, humiliating, and imprisoning people who have the audacity to try and survive by selling their time, effort, and bodies to strangers does not equate to securing 'basic human dignity'; it equates to objectifying cruelty.

bantler wrote:You have to have pimps to keep the Johns in-line. Without the threat of violence they'll damage the commodities. The entire system fails without brutality. And you pretend to not understand.

I know next to nothing about sex work and even I know pimps do more than 'keep the Johns in-line'.

But you're right; this entire system does fail without brutality. Unless we can brutally punish sex workers -- by degrading them, beating them, imprisoning them, murdering them, and erasing their existence -- then the system which allows people like you to continue holding your nose above it all might very well collapse. And we couldn't have that, could we?

But yes, by all means: Continue to regale us with your fascinating opinions on how prostitutes deserve to die in prison, bantler. It's super-interesting, and not at all indicative that you're just a sapient pile of human excrement who somehow figured out how to type and get an internet connection.

Chen wrote:Off the top of my head, Netherlands, Germany, Australia and I believe Nevada in the US all have legal prostitution. Im sure there are other "nornal" places too.

In the UK, prostitution itself is legal although many aspects surrounding it are not - eg. owning a brothel.

(However, hundreds if not thousands of brothels operate openly in normal high streets calling themselves 'massage parlours', even though everyone including the police know what services are on offer. There seems to be a tacit agreement that so long as all involved are doing so willingly it's a case of 'no harm no foul'.)

The Great Hippo wrote:Pimps likely exist for a reason; I'm sure some of them are horrible, just as I'm sure some of them aren't.

OK, show me that it is more than a belief on your part. I once meant a pimp that was shopping his, what would you have me call her, in the booths in a sex shop. Other than what it says about me for being there, my experience was that he was lower than dirt. We both took advantage of her. My shame on this point is high. Perhaps you should shoot me as well. Do you in your flights of imagination, beleive that that being on her knees in front of me was one of her childhood dreams?

Perhaps is some cases women retain enough agency in this to have some semblance of independence. But in most cases I think not. Most prostitutes are not courtesans. And most of the street trade is just as tawdry as my experiences, or so I believe. You would raise my estimation of humanity if you could at least tempt me to accept the possibility. I suspect without having any way to demonstrate it, that this isn't their first choice, or fifth. My problem is that there are too many confounding factors in society as it is configured. Women are too poor and ill educated, or lacking access to the minimums of what society has to offer to the middle class. I don't have anyway to gauge any of the other actors since my experiences, with one acceptation are heterosexual.

morriswalters wrote:The only one that comes to mind is pimps. Shoot all of them and I can get behind it.

And if the pimp is actually providing a service as either a "talent manager" or bodyguard? While I assume most pimps are awful, awful people who are involved in human trafficking, slavery, drug dealing, and the like, I'm sure there's a few cases where the pimps form a beneficial relationship with the girls.

Of course, to quote my NYPD acquaintance, "where there's girls, there's drugs, and where there's drugs, there's guns". Basically, getting your girls addicted to drugs is SOP for the lower end prostitution, and if you are already supplying drugs to your girls you might as well sell to a few customers while you are at it, and if you are getting into drug dealing you are going to need to protect your turf.

Higher end prostitution, not so much, and the pimps tend to be somewhat less abusive. Part of it is the clientelle; higher end call girls go with higher end clients, and while they may be pieces of shit they tend to not be nearly as violent. And higher end clients tend to prefer call girls of the "not strung out on heroin" variety.

And obviously an escort would have no need for a bodyguard if prostitution were fully legal and they could call the police if threatened just like anyone else. In the UK, an escort working alone isn't breaking the law but two escorts working out of the same flat for mutual support and safety are. How bizarre is that..?

As with drugs, a good deal of the harm surrounding the activity comes directly from its illegality and not from the activity itself...

From what I've been told, the high street brothels in the UK have little to none. Why would they when there are beat cops wandering up and down outside them all day long, and calling 999 would have squad cars arriving in force within minutes..?

morriswalters wrote:OK, show me that it is more than a belief on your part.

I've never worked in the sex industry -- and I'm not so foolish as to present any sort of contact I've had with that industry as anything more than flimsy anecdotal evidence.

morriswalters wrote:I once meant a pimp that was shopping his, what would you have me call her, in the booths in a sex shop. Other than what it says about me for being there, my experience was that he was lower than dirt. We both took advantage of her. My shame on this point is high. Perhaps you should shoot me as well. Do you in your flights of imagination that that being on her knees in front of me was one of her childhood dreams?

I... don't want to shoot anyone? That sounds like a terrible situation, and I'm a bit creeped out by how you 1) Did this thing despite feeling like you were taking advantage of her, and 2) Are comfortable enough with it to share it with me -- a stranger -- in a public setting.

But, uh, to address your point, I doubt that was one of her childhood dreams -- but do you think working behind the counter at McDonalds would be one of her childhood dreams, too? Would you feel better about it if she was standing in front of a register asking you if you'd like 'fries with that'? How would you feel if she appeared equally enthused -- or unenthused -- about both activities?

Sex can just be a recreational activity between consenting adults. Prostitutes provide this recreational service in exchange for cash. The reason we see the profession as degrading -- the reason the question 'was this one of her childhood dreams?' seems so troubling to us -- is because of how we perceive sex as a 'sacred' act, and force this perception on everyone around us.

That being said, the fact that sex can just be a recreational activity doesn't somehow let us off the hook for soliciting prostitutes, nor does it mean that prostitutes who feel disgusted about being prostitutes need to 'get over' their 'silly hang-ups'. This is a really complicated subject, and one I don't have nearly enough knowledge to properly unpack. But I will say this much:

All prostitutes are not helpless victimized people being held hostage by a toxic, corruptive system forcing them to sell their bodies against their will. All prostitutes are also not sex-empowered people who are happily, willfully providing a service in exchange for money.

Prostitutes are just people. Different people, from different places, united by one thing: They're selling sex. They all do it for a reason -- and that reason is always different, and always unique to the person.

morriswalters wrote:Perhaps is some cases women retain enough agency in this to have some semblance of independence. But in most cases I think not. Most prostitutes are not courtesans. And most of the street trade is just as tawdry as my experiences, or so I believe. You would raise my estimation of humanity if you could at least tempt me to accept the possibility. I suspect without having any way to demonstrate it, that this isn't their first choice, or fifth. My problem is that there are too many confounding factors in society as it is configured. Women are too poor and ill educated, or lacking access to the minimums of what society has to offer to the middle class. I don't have anyway to gauge any of the other actors since my experiences, with one acceptation are heterosexual.

Not all prostitutes are women. In fact, a lot of them aren't. And your concerns apply to them, too.

I'm not here to raise up your perspective on humanity (and to be honest, I'm completely uninterested in doing so). I don't want to sell prostitutes as people who have willfully chosen their profession -- because I highly doubt that's always the case. I do think, though, we need to understand that people who become sex-workers do so for reasons, and not all of those reasons amount to them being victimized by a pimp.

To address prostitution in a way that's responsible, you need to find out what these reasons are. And that means asking the prostitutes themselves.

You would raise my estimation of humanity if you could at least tempt me to accept the possibility. I suspect without having any way to demonstrate it, that this isn't their first choice, or fifth.

I have to reiterate the point of 'how many people are in their first choice job, or indeed fifth, right now?' If it's even 10% I'd be surprised. Most kids growing up these days say they want to be Youtube stars. How many do you think will actually achieve that goal..?

And that's in the West. I'd imagine in most countries even less people are in their 'dream job'.

The point is: We shouldn't dissuade people from making 'bad' career choices by making those choices illegal. Instead we should support and educate people so they make 'good' career choices.

elasto wrote:The point is: We shouldn't dissuade people from making 'bad' career choices by making those choices illegal. Instead we should support and educate people so they make 'good' career choices.

That's the humane way to my mind anyhow.

Right; this is the thing I think a lot of anti-sex work people seem to miss. Penalizing prostitutes is probably the worst fucking response imaginable to prostitution. "Hey, let's take all of these people we think are being victimized and make their status as victims illegal. That'll help, right?"

Nevermind that the notion of prostitutes as victims is absurdly reductionist; even if that were true, making prostitution illegal is akin to responding to a hostage crisis by gunning down all the hostages. If anything, the anti-prostitution laws demonstrate that our culture isn't concerned with the plight of prostitutes so much as it's concerned with obliterating all evidence that they exist.

It's almost like these laws were written by a bunch of old horny paternalistic men who wanted to have lots of illicit sex, but also wanted to get rid of the evidence legally under the guise of being 'Christianly'.

The Great Hippo wrote:Penalizing prostitutes is probably the worst fucking response imaginable to prostitution. "Hey, let's take all of these people we think are being victimized and make their status as victims illegal. That'll help, right?" ... If anything, the anti-prostitution laws demonstrate that our culture isn't concerned with the plight of prostitutes so much as it's concerned with obliterating all evidence that they exist.

It actually explains a lot if you think of various 'for your own good' laws in those terms. Vagrancy would be another example of where we further victimise the victim by making laws (or at least public order offences) against sleeping rough, squatting in abandoned buildings, begging and so on.

Much easier to try to pretend the problem doesn't exist or that people have better options than they really do. (If they did then in most cases they'd be taking them wouldn't they!)

elasto wrote:I have to reiterate the point of 'how many people are in their first choice job, or indeed fifth, right now?' If it's even 10% I'd be surprised. Most kids growing up these days say they want to be Youtube stars. How many do you think will actually achieve that goal..?

In my generation most children wouldn't have had prostitute in their lexicon. Given the amount of media they are exposed to today I suppose that notion is out of date and quaint.

The Great Hippo wrote:I... don't want to shoot anyone? That sounds like a terrible situation, and I'm a bit creeped out by how you 1) Did this thing despite feeling like you were taking advantage of her, and 2) Are comfortable enough with it to share it with me -- a stranger -- in a public setting.

Your privilege is showing. I suppose you think that the ugly parts don't exist. Your one tells me your understanding of prostitution is incomplete. One of the sadder parts of how prostitutes are treated is in the basic inequality of the prostitute and their customer. One of the things about getting old is that you get enough distance from events to see them as you couldn't when they were happening. It was only later that I took into account her feelings. As for the second, if I'm going to talk about this then I intend to do so honestly. I don't hide behind cute names. And I limit it to people I consider to be like me, interested in a picture of the world with as little ambiguity as we can achieve. Obviously I was mistaken about you in that regard.

why do we demand of sex workers that they not only prove that their job is, y'know, paying their bills but that it is also fulfilling them spiritually or mentally or whatever, that they love their job, that it's exciting and fun and empowering? literally no other job in capitalism is held to these completely arbitrary standards. which to be clear i think is a failing of capitalism as a whole, but regardless: we don't expect that people are working jobs to be fulfilled and happy as human beings, we don't make jobs illegal because people may not like or may even utterly loathe their jobs and find them degrading. i have found many of my jobs degrading and soul-crushing; i have experienced utterly humiliating routine abuse at several of my jobs; it was taken for granted in multiple industries i have worked in that i would put up with sexual harassment or even assault in the course of working, i was not expected to be mentally or emotionally fulfilled at any of them. i worked them because i needed to pay my bills and eat. literally the same reason i do sex work. somehow it's a good enough reason to get nonconsensually groped in a restaurant but not a good enough reason to get consensually groped by my clients. go figure.

and all the faux-concern about trafficking and pimps abusing sex workers etc being why criminalization is important is laughable. just about every criminalization policy that supposedly is for the protection of sex workers actively harms sex workers. take pimping, for example. people like to talk about "pimps" because it sounds sordid and terrible, Oh me yarm, abusive men in fur coats beating poor women and getting them strung out and then forcing them into sex work. great, sure, a+ fodder for titillating people and inciting moral outrage but in practice do you know what anti-pimping laws actually target?

-a sex worker like me who is deaf pays a cut of earnings to someone to handle phone calls from potential clients. this person who i have gotten to help with administrative tasks & help screen clients, legally, now counts as a pimp.-i have a friend who i use regularly as a safecall (i.e., someone who knows who & where every one of my appointments will be and who i plan to let know at scheduled times when i finish appointments, who has instructions on what to do if i ever don't check in with them after an appointment.) on occasion if i am meeting a new client i am unsure of or am going somewhere less accessible, they also give me rides to the appointment, being as they have a driver's license and i don't and also they are large and muscular and i am not. usually in this case, i pay them for gas money and sometimes buy them dinner. this friend, legally, now counts as a pimp.-inviting clients to your house can be risky, but going to clients' houses carries totally different risk. for sex workers working indoors lots of people's ideal situation is a place to work out of that is not their actual home -- say a hotel, or an apartment that isn't theirs (but isn't the client's either). for a time, a couple friends took appointments out of the unused condo of another friend, paying the 3rd friend a small monthly rent in exchange for the use of the incall location. the person allowing them to use the incall location to work more safely out of? legally, pimping them.

it's not that exploitation and abuse doesn't happen. it's that exploitation and abuse are all already illegal under other laws. and people stuck in the shady grey area of coercion? they aren't going to get help if you make sex work illegal. time and again, actual trafficking victims who try to get help are arrested. the laws as they are aren't helping them, they were never intended to. they only pay lipservice to wanting to help them so that people can pretend that's A Reason so that they can throw all the rest of us in jail too.

which, cool, if we as a society just hate all sex workers and think they all deserve to rot in jail/get murdered/die horribly, fine, but we should just be honest about it.

You want to know the future, love? Then wait:I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

bantler wrote:The eight year old would be correct to distance himself from offenders. He's literally the prey to the predator.

Not for Weinsteins. Not for Spaceys (regardless of how squiffy). Not even for Joseph Fritzels, I think, or Fred West. The Savilles, yes, possibly, though not sure even about the Barry Bennell kind. And then there are some for whom the 8yo boy is pretty much exactly the prey by preference (rather than merely opportunism and lack of disinclination), and definitely do all you can to keep such a predator away from such a prey (even if that's just removing temptation from the repentant, and the unrepentant shouldn't get anywhere near such opportunities to test their fears of authority that is the only thing stopping them).

But, however much you're dying to use that huge barrel of feathers, tarring every offender or potential offender with such a broad brush is counterproductive. And you can't stop one-time shoplifters living near supermarkets, nor previously banned drivers living near roads, which is the same logic not even taken to the ridiculous lengths it'd be possible to do.

This is a dark part of this thread, and I've only barely said "robots" twice, in this paragraph, due to my mentioning "robots" twice as being something I haven't mentioned elsewhere.

I don't think much of society. And I was ashamed of me on reflection, not her. What I'm tired of is over educated people who won't think it through. And it isn't like any other job. It's tied to the core functionality of what humans are.

The Harvey Weinstein's of the world see all women through that filter. They see it as a transaction, a quid pro quo. Something they deserve. And something they pay for. And all women don't want to be seen that way. You have two equations that have to be solved at the same time.

Women need to have the last word on this. This impacts them directly, in terms of how men treat them, and in terms of how they are perceived. And that CorruptUser is what I mean by privilege.

MW, if you wanna have a feminism discussion, DO Not do it in a thread I start re: sex 'bots. Please. I have been told to move feminism discussions elsewhere here and now... I telling you to move your, off topic, feminism discussions to new more appropriate threads. <3 u MW 4ever~

Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.

Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

Morris, there is some irony in you seeking to speak for all women on this when you have a woman posting in this very thread and you are not listening to what she has to say on the matter.

And, please, stop trying to make this a man v woman thing. Men sometimes see sex as deep and meaningful and sometimes women just want to get laid for the sake of getting laid. Get over it.

In terms of the sex robot talk, vibrators are significantly more common with women than men, and while I can't imagine full on sex robots being as popular with women as men, I'll bet there'll be a significant demand for VR sex with vibrators amongst the female market.

Just look at how many groupies throw themselves at pop stars; You think there wouldn't be demand for an app that gave you a VR sex experience with Tom Hiddleston or Justin Bieber or whoever...?

Sex robots in the style of Blade Runner pleasure-bots may never exist. The current crop are just masturbation dolls. Slightly better polymers but still just an equitable blow-up. The future of self-pleasure for both sexes is VR and dildonics.

Oh my goodness. Yes VR has a lot of potential for women: Both for experiences they never get otherwise, and, it's shame-free, you don't get pregnant...

My only issues is that one: Sex robots and even VR distract from natural, physical sexual experiences. And w/o a physical touches or kisses sometimes you might... disconnect yourself from sex? And two: Women might use VR or sex 'bots or better pleasure toys as distractions from problems in their lives. I don't know how to fix either of those however: I don't think increased technology surrounding sex is a bad thing. Even if a woman starves herself to death in VR. Just... please to not automate Every. Little. Thing re: sex and pleasuring oneself pleasey?

Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.

Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

I don't think that's a real worry. Most men masturbate more often than they have sex but I think it'd be a really rare man that became so disconnected that they didn't still find sex with a real woman that they love and who loves them far more satisfying emotionally. Sex is soo much more than just the orgasm bit.

And two: Women might use VR or sex 'bots or better pleasure toys as distractions from problems in their lives.

That's been a complaint and a fear since, like forever. Anything enjoyable can become an addiction that causes people to neglect friends and family even if it's just painting toy soldiers or trainspotting...

I don't think that's a real worry. Most men masturbate more often than they have sex but I think it'd be a really rare man that became so disconnected that they didn't still find sex with a real woman that they love and who loves them far more satisfying emotionally. Sex is soo much more than just the orgasm bit.

Well, I am in true terror at losing... my profession (robots are perfect or will be eventually and I'm Not perfect re: pleasing or even dominatrixing or submitting), my prospects for a love life (robots can be modified to be however you wanna without plastic surgeries), and if VR were a thing? I'd be losing my love life and profession to VR too. Ditto for better pleasure toys... and? It seems like... a love life with an automated not real dolly girl or boy would not satisfy so I feel better about that on one hand. On the other hand it seems like, if we can simulate dating and sex entirely, then I wouldn't have a chance at dating or having sex with anyone 'cause they rather pleasure themselves.

Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.

Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

Morris, there is some irony in you seeking to speak for all women on this when you have a woman posting in this very thread and you are not listening to what she has to say on the matter.

Let me help you with this. I'll vote for it if the women I take counsel from, suggest that I should. I suspect that having given the matter some thought, they would agree to it. I also assume they would segregate it to red light districts, so they wouldn't need to put up with it. You can make of that whatever suits you. And Ginger has called me creepy multiple times. How do you think that would work out if I chose to engage with her?

My faults entirely. I called out morriswalters too much. I'm hereby restricting myself from respond to him unless he respond to me, which he is always welcome to, as even though he technically foe'd me and I him, I still... read his posts. Breathy giggles....

Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.

Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

Then take me off foes' list and you and we can rap all day and night long about re: sexy robot dolls girls/women/men. <3 Anyways that's the last I gonna say about it lest I derail my own thread begging morriswalters to not ignore me. :(

Now that's a neat idea, you got any articles re: what you talkin' 'bout?

AND: bantler should die and go to hell, be ban from towns and cities JUST BASE ON HIS SEX ACTIVITIES, and go directly to jail or prisons to be... love... by wardens and inmates. THEN HE'LL SEE what sex workers go through ha-ha-ha-ha-ha~! </3 no luv 4 bantler.

Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.

Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

You might be right. Unfortunately, our justice system is not base on... things that would help prostitutes criminals to... productively reform. It is based on vengeance, retribution and stripping away of womanhood or manhood in jails and prisons. And... taking away a woman's bodily control is not only wrong and vengeful it is abuse and not a true rehabilitative justice system. So, no, jailbirds outta hookers not gonna help them recover and live stable, productive lives. Even with eleven billion jail therapists, wardens or orderlies, imprisonment to serve their time for illegal activities NOT gonna help because the cops and the courts do not care about reforming criminals. Only vengeful punishing of hookers.

Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.

Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

Ha-ha clever words pun and you said "sex 'bots" so I am please. Just... please no more 'kay-'kay? It fine if no one wanna chat w/me about it. Just pleasey don't make it into puns/sarcastic one-liners' contests? For me?

Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.

Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

bantler wrote:Prostitutes, like most criminals, are also victims. They should get the counseling and treatment they need to have productive stable lives. Jail might be the only way they can break their cycle of abuse.

There are no words for how repulsive this statement is. I feel like I need a shower after reading it. Two showers, maybe.

Like, seriously; it's really hard for me right now to not hope you get the "help" you need by being violently assaulted by police, stripped, then locked away in a hole. It'd be a shame, but maybe you're a victim too; it might be the only way to break your cycle of abuse. Maybe jail is just what you need. It'd be tragic, but maybe ruining your life would be to your benefit.

People like you are why prostitutes get beaten, objectified, degraded, humiliated, erased, and murdered. It's because shitty people like you can't think of them as anything but victims in need of "help" -- and that "help" comes in the form of a police baton descending toward their head. Followed by being torn from their families and thrown in jail. For their "own good".