Does anyone see God's hand in nature? If God did create all this, then he's cruel.

The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.-- Richard Dawkins, "God's Utility Function," published in Scientific American (November, 1995), p. 85

I like the Dawkins quote.
It won't go anywhere with a theist, of course, because they don't give a flying fig about animals or suffering... no, actually, they get their rocks off on suffering.
Which is all your fault, anyway.

And i wouldn't go the Hitler route, because you can end up exchanging names all day and get nowhere. Besides, that's all your fault, too.

(25-09-2011 04:14 PM)RubyHypatia Wrote: You're right, Peterkin. Christians believe that original sin brought about suffering. Interesting that one act can doom all living things to suffering and death.

Yeah, Eve eating that 'forbidden fruit' was a heinous, vile act. I think that story is just a convenient excuse, particularly for Christians' second-class treatment of women.

(25-09-2011 04:14 PM)RubyHypatia Wrote: You're right, Peterkin. Christians believe that original sin brought about suffering. Interesting that one act can doom all living things to suffering and death.

Yeah, Eve eating that 'forbidden fruit' was a heinous, vile act. I think that story is just a convenient excuse, particularly for Christians' second-class treatment of women.

Yes, historically. It's gotten better, but still not 100% there. Some people still follow the "wives, submit to your husbands" doctrine. The women in question believe it and abide by it... Antiquated man is head, women are there to cook and take care if children... Stuff like that.

Heck yeah, the Eve mythology has NOT been good for women. Remember, as punishment for eating the forbidden fruit, her husband would rule over her. This has been used to keep women from having equal rights. I'm not saying that this mythology was the cause of inequality, but it did reinforce it, and in some cases still does.

I've always been averse to the notion that God would actively intervene in existence. Why? Well, let's assume, for this argument, God is real. He has the power to create the universe, in all its complexity, and is essentially infinitely powerful.

1. If this is the only universe, then God is capable of having made it so that the end result will be whatever he wanted at the moment of creation. For example, he could create the universe with the intention that guy X will invent product Y. Why would he need to look down and go "OH SHIT! They need product Y! Uhhh...YOU! Invent it right now!" It seems absurd. How could anything move outside the original plan set in motion at the creation of the universe? How could he create an "imperfect" universe? If you accept that the universe is imperfect, and God does have to intervene to fix things (like creating product Y), then you've accepted that he is NOT all powerful, is NOT all knowing, and is somehow constrained by "time", which is an element of our universe that he should exist outside of.

2. If there are many/infinite universes, each reflecting a slightly different universe from our own, and thus representing every single possibility, God still would not need to interevene. Why? Well in this universe Caesar was assassinated but in some of the other universes he wasn't. In this universe Socrates loses his trial, in others he doesn't. So why would you intervene? Every possible choice is reflected in every possible universe. If you wanted them all to just be the same, why not make them that way in the first place? It would be like knowingly building a thousand cars that don't have radiators and only fixing the problem when someone came up and asked you.