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Are there any other games that should be on this list (besides WoW)? Why?

Everquest of course, they invented PVE raiding.

Everquest although it has many flaws now, still has some of the best raids. The sheer size of the raids (still requires 54 players) and mechanics behind the raids make it one of the most complex raiding games. I think the amount of raids Everquest has also outstrips any other game.

The game lost much of it's developers and isn't worth it with the cash shop for me, but WoW can't compared to EQ PVE raids and never has, EQ raids are bigger, harder (GoD+), last longer and are on a much bigger scale than WoW.

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Rift hands down. Its personal opinion though. Hammerknell was the best raid I've seen in a game since Karazhan in BC (which I'll admit its more so for the charm then anything, which HK actually did pretty good on for me though adding some challenge compared to kara). I'm a bit bias on this but eh, basically a 'best' is opinion so Rift, hands down, number one experience, complete opinionated answer, screw facts for that. :)

Surprised though you didn't include FFXI. Really did have some crazy raids, granted they are pretty far stretched for newer players to really get into.

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Originally posted by Purutzil

Rift hands down. Its personal opinion though. Hammerknell was the best raid I've seen in a game since Karazhan in BC (which I'll admit its more so for the charm then anything, which HK actually did pretty good on for me though adding some challenge compared to kara). I'm a bit bias on this but eh, basically a 'best' is opinion so Rift, hands down, number one experience, complete opinionated answer, screw facts for that. :)

Surprised though you didn't include FFXI. Really did have some crazy raids, granted they are pretty far stretched for newer players to really get into.

Yes, I didn't include EQ or FFXI because I was thinking of newer games to get into. As much as I like some older games, they are just old. The graphics don't stand the test of time, for me. I know it sounds superficial. I love Morrowind in spite of the graphics.

Also, I didn't include EQ because there is EQ2. I didn't include FFXI because there is FFXIV A Realm Reborn coming out. I should have specified current generation games. As great as EQ and FFXI must be (I never played either sadly), I imagine it would be hard starting from the beginning in either of those games and making it to endgame for various reasons.

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Originally posted by 7star

Originally posted by Purutzil

Rift hands down. Its personal opinion though. Hammerknell was the best raid I've seen in a game since Karazhan in BC (which I'll admit its more so for the charm then anything, which HK actually did pretty good on for me though adding some challenge compared to kara). I'm a bit bias on this but eh, basically a 'best' is opinion so Rift, hands down, number one experience, complete opinionated answer, screw facts for that. :)

Surprised though you didn't include FFXI. Really did have some crazy raids, granted they are pretty far stretched for newer players to really get into.

Yes, I didn't include EQ or FFXI because I was thinking of newer games to get into. As much as I like some older games, they are just old. The graphics don't stand the test of time, for me. I know it sounds superficial. I love Morrowind in spite of the graphics.

Also, I didn't include EQ because there is EQ2. I didn't include FFXI because there is FFXIV A Realm Reborn coming out. I should have specified current generation games. As great as EQ and FFXI must be (I never played either sadly, I imagine it would be hard starting from the beginning in either of those games and making it to endgame for various reasons).

I should edit my OP.

Sadly, today's current generation of games is missing the longevity that made those older games so awesome as MMOs. That being said, I would have to say Rift, only because it is fairly accessible to new players and has a nice tiered progression to it that people still do, even those in the latest tier. Unlike WoW where raiders never seem to run older tiers at all and any new raiders are left in the cold hoping to find 10-20 people like them to try the older raids out.

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Originally posted by elocke That being said, I would have to say Rift, only because it is fairly accessible to new players and has a nice tiered progression to it that people still do, even those in the latest tier. Unlike WoW where raiders never seem to run older tiers at all and any new raiders are left in the cold hoping to find 10-20 people like them to try the older raids out.

Seems like most people agree with you about Rift. I've been having a good time dabbling in Rift and I'm looking forward to the expansion.

Not having raided in Rift, I will be glad if the older (lower tier) raids are seeing some action.

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Well, I've only seen Vanguard and Lineage 2 raids.

Lineage 2 ones are pretty simple - well, the ones I've seen.

Vanguard raids are pretty complex and a single person not doing their job can easily cause a wipe. I also heard repeatedly from other players of the game that these are the best raids they've ever seen anywhere.

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This poll is hard for me to vote in really... I have played all of those except The Secret World, but I've only made it to the end game raiding in one of them, SWTOR... Though I kind of wish I had seen some of the raiding while I was playing Rift. The problem there was my friends quit before I reached max level, and by the time I did reach max I didn't really have much time to play anymore so I didn't want to keep paying and not playing. Though I did experience some of the open world Rift invasion things, which were pretty cool. How much of that was important to end game?

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Originally posted by Foomerang

The Secret World has really good dungeons.

TSW doesn't have raids. Besides, I don't think TSW is the type of game he would like. I also wouldn't recomend Vanguard since it's population is weak and it has aged badly. I logged in the other day and it looked horrible and the controls feel unresponsive in comparison with the newer games.

Personally I would recomend Rift since it is easy to get into and with a new expansion comming out it will be a good time to get onboard. I would also have a look at LoTRO and EQ2 but I haven't played it for a while and the and the number of expansions puts me off.

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Rift. I have an old friend who use to play wow in a server first guild and he asked me whats a good game where he can hardcore raid. I said RIFT it has that old BC WoW feeling in regards to raids. There tough and original.

Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim DawnWaiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert