It is actually 30% Sush. The biggest thing a person can do is go to one child only at a later age, then compost several ways, live on solar/wind power reduce consumption re-use tires for houses, and recycle purified metal, paper, and plastic, and grow much of your own food. I do all that and live in the USA, do you do all that in the extreme overpopulation of India? Your people have already got the inbred through time, NEGATIVE ecological trait of crowd tolerance which will crash your country soon. You are right, I am an expert, and have been for 40 years, and along the way, on a lot more than ecology and population dynamics. There was an eco-footprint crude survey on this board, and if everyone was like me, we would need just one planet. The eco-footprint of Indians would have to be less than 1/3 mine because there are over 3 times as many of you. You couldn't pay me enough to even visit the stench, polluted drinking water, and crowds of your country. The movie(and book by Michael Tobias and Oregon Public Television, 1994) "WWIII: Overpopulation and the Biosphere showed India depleting the rest of its soil, groundwater, and forests, by 2010. The crude survey did not show, or have, the impact of having only one child versus more. More hurts the biosphere, while one helps, in general.It is true that massive industrialization and agriculture, especially without pollution restraints, is deadly to the population of the country like China, and the world who get the settling mercury everywhere. Mercury and other pollution can destroy the mind and body in a variety of ways. So can over-crowding induce anxiety, hostility, and depression, to the point of the drugs to combat the symptoms being significant pollutants, along with birth control hormones to stem overpopulation even causing sex changes in fish in rivers downstream from big cities. The dead zones off of estuaries has risen sharply in number and size.The industrialization of India is not helping. Total pollution from China is far greater than that from the USA, who is slightly ahead of Europe. A big part of total pollution is a function of population, and so is groundwater, forest, and soil depletion. You end up either getting polluted to death or run out of water, or food, or get a disease from polluted water and low immunity from malnutrition.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

You keep talking about population. India is still consuming much less than your Amerikka.

...and people suffer because of it. How in hell a population can grow out of control with so little resources is truly astounding and grossly irresponsible.

I live the way I do and I will continue or die trying. Can you say the same, or will you simply accept whatever meager existence you can get? Apparently it's the latter.

Fosgate,

Western society is living in a state of Delusion. It thinks it is living a better life because its GDP is higher - because it is consuming more. The reality is just the opposite - the more you have the more restless and miserable you are.

Modern Industrial Society has existed for 100 years - 200 years - 300 years. When we compare this period with the total duration for which human society has existed on earth this period is so short - so small that it almost does'nt exist. It is almost zero.

Material things don't bring peace and happiness. Today billions of people have got things which even Kings did not have in the past. Car, computer, television, fridge, telephone - no King ever had these things. But people are still restless and unhappy.

A very large percentage of the population is surviving on precription drugs, illegal drugs, alcohol and cigarettes.

One-third of the population has become fat like elephants.

People talk about increase in lifespan. What is the use of increased lifespan if people have to resort to Drugs, Alcohol and Cigarettes to pull through life. And just wait a few more years - the average lifespan will soon become zero - human life will cease to exist on earth.

Look at your divorce rate - look at your crime rate[highest percentage of population behind bars] - a culture of sex and violence - a culture of greed and decadence.

Western society is living in a state of Delusion. It thinks it is living a better life because its GDP is higher - because it is consuming more.

Sure, we consume more, but you think it all comes to us for free? Those in western societies tend to work harder and smarter for it. My Indian neighbors would agree. But you go ahead, blame your squalor on someone other than yourself.

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The reality is just the opposite - the more you have the more restless and miserable you are.

Actually, you'll find that the restless and miserable are those who have less inclination to work and more to mooch off those that do--welfare, in other words.

_________________TANG SOO!

Last edited by Fosgate on Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sushi, You are right, Kings didn't have loud electric guitars like me, and on solar power. There is a reason for some of the stuff like greed and profiteering. However, much of the anxiety, hostility, and depression in the world is caused by our own genetic predisposition against crowded conditions. The genetics are such that humans would not ruin a given habitat or would self-regulate their numbers to that within ecological sustainability. It is called the Human Overcrowding Syndrome, but is overcome by genetic disposition over generations toward crowd tolerance, a negative ecological trait, mainly in Asians. The effect of the Human Overcrowding Syndrome is the behind the scenes secondary cause to overpopulation of WWI and WWII, and the wars of today. Simply having the crowd tolerance gene has led to extremely gross overpopulation as in India where you drink feces laden water and eat only a meager diet of rice and vegetables, like Chinese and other Asians. Millions that have never used a toilet live in Asia, including hundreds of thousands in India. Living skinny, unhealthy, in the filthy streets all their short lives, and you want to blame it on westerners when it is your own fault. There are many smart people in Asia, but not smart enough to decrease their pollution and gross overpopulation. It is not really that much different here in that respect. Smart people who are not greedy are NOT in power. If I was the ruler of the western world, it would be ecologically sustainable by force. People would be forced to have one or no kids, live on solar or wind power in Earthships, low meat use, low fuel use, and grow much of their own food, while still having flat LCD screen TVs, and computers, efficient washing machines, and composters. Low IQ , the greedy, and the over-breeders would be killed off, or let die off. However, I am not in charge, God is, ultimately, and we live under His Laws of bio-ecology. India will be probably the first in a cascading process of economic and ecological collapse and population die off.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

Have you ever noticed it's those without material things that feel material things don't bring peace and happiness.

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Today billions of people have got things which even Kings did not have in the past. Car, computer, television, fridge, telephone - no King ever had these things. But people are still restless and unhappy.

And many of those kings had things stoneage man didn't have. Things like wheels, and weapons. Things that helped them take away things from others. Seems even the kings were still restless and unhappy even though they didn't have a fridge.

Of course no one has asked stoneage man if he was happy eating raw meat he scavanged, and if he was happy hiding from wild animals because he couldn't defend himself. But we must assume he was happy, because it seems he's the only one that didn't have anything to make him unhappy.

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A very large percentage of the population is surviving on precription drugs, illegal drugs, alcohol and cigarettes.

Which is something that has gone on for all time. Hundreds of years ago the drug may have been different and not bought and sold on the open market, but man has always found something.

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One-third of the population has become fat like elephants.

The haves and the have nots. There will always be a percentage of the haves that go to the extreme. Also we don't eat enough good food today comapred to hundreds of years ago. But if the have nots had the ability to eat what the haves eat, in time they would also become fat like elephants. Or as we say here, fat as a hog.

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People talk about increase in lifespan. What is the use of increased lifespan if people have to resort to Drugs, Alcohol and Cigarettes to pull through life.

It would be easy to find countless cases of someone whose life is extended because of legal drugs, and it would be easy to find many cases where these people do good things for other people long after they would have died without these drugs.

Again just another case of the have nots complaining about something they don't have.

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Look at your divorce rate

But look at it this way. If they divorce before they have any kids, then i'ts sort of a population control measure.

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look at your crime rate[highest percentage of population behind bars] - a culture of sex and violence

But if they're in prison they're not making new little criminals.

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a culture of sex and violence - a culture of greed and decadence.

Yeah, aint life grand.

_________________I don't know what your problem is but I bet its hard to pronounce.

In the name of Globalization you have forced a uniform monoculture in the entire world - destroying all local cultures.

Force? Give it a rest. The demand was there or it wouldn't have happend. Check your backyard, buttercup. There are elements of western culture from which even easterners cannot look away. So don't even think of playing this east vs. west. culture card with me.

Happiness to me is a loud electric rock/blues/metal guitar in my hands, and peace is a warm gun.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. Industry kills Water. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted.

Industry/ Factories burn millions of tonnes of fuel and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems.

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land.

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way.

"Growth Rate" - "Economy Rate" - "GDP"

These are figures of "Ecocide".These are figures of "crimes against Nature".These are figures of "destruction of Ecosystems".These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".

I think you're making some assumptions. That it's impossible to have a industrial world that doesn't destroy things.

The problem with modern industry is that we're not real good yet at 'closing the loop' of consumption-to-waste-to-consumption again. Nature actually has such a system; what it produces doesn't overwhelm it's capicity to utalize the waste also produced. If we pattern what we create more along the same principles it will be possible to have a truly modern world that's also truly livable.

We're not there yet. But we're working at it. We must fix the problems we've created in this world. But to do so, we must run to meet them, not turn and flee.