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And some of the complaints are valid. Whilst you may think some people are overreacting, people like me find it difficult to see why people can't see a significant difference in the level of fanservice/ecchi in Nise compared to Bake.

On the other hand, I can understand why other people wish to find a difference

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

I don't give a rat's ass about whether or not one LN was more/less fanservice centric compared to each to other or in their animated adaptations. An anime should be assessed on the anime itself, or else this will be like trying to argue something like Persona 4 is a great anime because it's dead loyal to its source material. That's a load of bollocks if you ask me. What works in a manga, LN or game does not always work in a visual animated or motion picture medium.

That's another discussion, irrelevant to the episode. In short, I don't like P4 loyalty, I hated Kurokami for butchering the source, and am undecided on Bake- skipping certain parts of the novel to make it a little more accessible or less expensive.

But as long as an anime is adapting another medium, how it does so, is of centre concern, whether one is familiar with the original or not. If for no other reason, the manga/LN/games sell much more than BD/DVDs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

I came into the Monogatari franchising liking the dialogue and character interactions in Bakemonogatari. Fanservice was there but I didn't mind too much (cept for the Nadeko Snake arc). Nisemonogatari retains largely the great dialogue and character interactions when it chooses to do so, but unfortunately half the time it seems to go off-course and instead of developing character or moving the plot, muck around with whatever otaku fetish they feel like exploring. Half the time. I don't recall Bake resorting to this amount.

I liked it for the same reasons, but not being bothered by eroticism and absurdity (the opposite actually) helps a lot, since they are integral plot elements throughout the series. For example in that abominable scene, try to pay attention to Koyomi's shift in the way he is thinking, it is one of the best shifts of perspective I have heard/read (in anime/manga)... instead of raging over the circumstances... My point is that the dialogue is always great independent of the pretext for writing it.

Here is the thing. I'm super bias. I was the one who originally translated the toothbrush scene a long time so I like to think that I had a part in it when it came to the hype of this episode. It's sorta like seeing the stepchild you adopted finally getting married. Even then I have to agree that this episode really is useless and doesn't contribute to the overall story. I admit that it really is just Nisio jacking off with a pen. With that in mind I STILL think that this is the best thing to happen to this series.

Here is the thing. I'm super bias. I was the one who originally translated the toothbrush scene a long time so I like to think that I had a part in it when it came to the hype of this episode. It's sorta like seeing the stepchild you adopted finally getting married. Even then I have to agree that this episode really is useless and doesn't contribute to the overall story. I admit that it really is just Nisio jacking off with a pen. With that in mind I STILL think that this is the best thing to happen to this series.

I totally disagree, it's definitely not the best part of the series (Kizu- ), and also exposes very well how Koyomi thinks, especially when it comes to relationships, the other scene that was also hated but did the same in Nise- was in the beginning with Suruga.

Good grief, I go to sleep for 6 hours, I wake up and I find that this thread has added as many pages (5 to 11), and beat out the previous ep for views alone inside a DAY of the ep airing, and how everyone's 'Mileage' is varying on this entire story, not just the fact that this ep has everyone's feathers ruffled for different reasons...

now seriously.
most of people raging about toothbrush scene was expected i did not say it in any other thread since it would be spoiler but i already expected this kind of reaction i even expect people to drop the series wich for me is plain ridiculous

i won't lie, i ejoyed this episode and since i read the scene in the novel i'm happy cuz it was animated with perfection and a lot of details, even more it was given a full episode!!

i'm a strong karen X koyomi fan. sorry but hitagi does not appeal to me at all just like some of you don't like a particular character

i always tell people to open their minds while watching nisemono or else you would not enjoy it...pepople keep comparing bake to nise...as someone said nise was made as a way for nishio to relax and in in a comic way to show characters development after each arc in bake as it was seen from episode 1 to 3 of nise.

post of the rages are probably because of the incest. you may say no try to argue it buts is likely your dislike for incest. i'm sure if it where hitagi who was at karen's place people would be "ahahaha my araragi-chan got hitagi now!!"

don't get me wrong people should totally have their own opinion just like i loved this episode and other just hated it.

now about this scene getting skiped...sorry we are western fans...some of us may not like it but i'm sure japanese fans are in awe moren than some of us the scene will not be skipped like someone said deal with it.

and that will not the last time we see this kind of fetish (or worse) in nisemonogatari its pointless to argue about it's fan-service monogatari series works that way afterall

plus come on its 95 10/10 against 3 1/10 no need to rage about the 1/10.

now seriously.
most of people raging about toothbrush scene was expected i did not say it in any other thread since it would be spoiler but i already expected this kind of reaction i even expect people to drop the series wich for me is plain ridiculous

i won't lie, i ejoyed this episode and since i read the scene in the novel i'm happy cuz it was animated with perfection and a lot of details, even more it was given a full episode!!

i'm a strong karen X koyomi fan. sorry but hitagi does not appeal to me at all just like some of you don't like a particular character

i always tell people to open their minds while watching nisemono or else you would not enjoy it...pepople keep comparing bake to nise...as someone said nise was made as a way for nishio to relax and in in a comic way to show characters development after each arc in bake as it was seen from episode 1 to 3 of nise.

post of the rages are probably because of the incest. you may say no try to argue it buts is likely your dislike for incest. i'm sure if it where hitagi who was at karen's place people would be "ahahaha my araragi-chan got hitagi now!!"

don't get me wrong people should totally have their own opinion just like i loved this episode and other just hated it.

now about this scene getting skiped...sorry we are western fans...some of us may not like it but i'm sure japanese fans are in awe moren than some of us the scene will not be skipped like someone said deal with it.

and that will not the last time we see this kind of fetish (or worse) in nisemonogatari its pointless to argue about it's fan-service monogatari series works that way afterall

plus come on its 95 10/10 against 3 1/10 no need to rage about the 1/10.

I thought this episode would divide the fanbase more than ever and am very surprised that a crushing majority seems to have loved it going by the votes. I expected to see a lot more outrage in this thread, and while there is some, it appears to come from pretty much the same vocal minority as usual. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against criticism, and I encourage everybody to voice theirs. Reactions from both sides have been equally entertaining to read for me. And the thread would have beena bit boring if it had simply turned into a circlejerk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

It was made blantantly obvious that Araragi and his sisters were on so-so terms at the start of Nise. Regardless, this episode made no effort to progress the plot or develop characterisation (one of either is required imo to make an episode good) and this episode did neither. It consisted a whole episode dedicated to incestual overtones and a toothbrush fetish.

That's not exactly right. As you said, Araragi wasn't on very good terms with his sisters at the beginning of the series, and this episode brought him closer than ever to one of his sister. That's progress in my book. The way it happened was... very unusual and weird, but it was progress nonetheless. They're reached a harmony few siblings ever will... for better or worse

Quote:

Originally Posted by omimon

Personally I was hoping for a 90% 10/10 rate. Episode of the year!!!

Blu-ray: Foam added.

~80% 10/10 is already amazingly good. I can't recall having seen that too often.

I totally disagree, it's definitely not the best part of the series (Kizu- )

Yes, I agree. I think this is still a powerful scene (this very thread being the evidence ) It's not just another pointless scene; both of them were in it for real. Not only do they have these kinds of thoughts about eachother, they're both willing to act them out. To the degree of doing the next best thing. Of course you can say they are just fooling around, like the horny teenagers they are (well, they are still siblings), and there's no love involved. Future will show. I guess they're brushing eachother's teeth on a regular basis now, given how they are supposedly "getting along a little better" now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by omimon

Blu-ray: Foam added.

With foam that scene would look like it's from your regular bukkake (gokkun) movie (or is that just me?). Not that it would be a bad thing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

That's not exactly right. As you said, Araragi wasn't on very good terms with his sisters at the beginning of the series, and this episode brought him closer than ever to one of his sister. That's progress in my book.

Bolding mine. Yes, I don't know why this isn't bleeding obvious to some viewers. Progress of a kind, at least

Reading Kizu and watching Nise has really opened up Koyomi's character for me.

The fanservice argumentation is really nothing new. It strikes me as somewhat distant, since I really don't have any kind of aversion towards sex or eroticism, especially when we're talking two dimensional character models.

One thing I saw on 4chan was that they were debating on if these two had sex after the episode ended. In the end they agreed that they just made out.

So what do you guys think? I'm pretty sure they didn't have sex but maybe a couple of kisses here and there wouldn't have hurt.

well in the anime they did kiss at the end... (i zoomed the hell outta that pic, they did kiss) and they were looking really happy while falling together, karen said tsukihi would take a while to get back and they could try extra things so yeah...not sex but they crossed most of the other lines

If everything is subjected to criticism, then even criticism must be open to criticism. Who in his right mind would cut the much anticipated toothbrush scene? It was clearly not an option from the start. Just look at all the 10 this episode received, and think that in Japan is likely to be the same. Shaft knew what it was doing.

If the criticism just comes down to "Oh no, this episode is about sexual themes, if I like it they might mistake me for an otaku" then I can just shake my head in disbelief at what anime fans have become now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

Problem with anime comedy in general is that it's largely of the otaku pandering type.

Otaku pandering doesn't mean anything special. In Japan if you watch anime you are an otaku. Otaku pandering is something like "sighted people pandering". "Adult pandering type" describes it better, in that your body need to have reached puberty for you to understand.

Then again you miss a lot of referential humor, like in Gintama or Excel Saga.

Quote:

I have seen several stand-up comedies and western TV shows and sitcoms where I have laughed out loud. And you know what anime comedy lacks - satire, deadpan, black humour.

Most of anime is mainstream. Even Japan has other kinds of humor, it's just that it's niche.

Then again Monogatari has plenty of satire of anime culture and its own medium. Or did you mean satire of society? For example the manga National Quiz was satire of society, it's just that it's satire of Japanese society.

The toothbrush scene is literally sex comedy, but in the other cases it's simply fanservice. That's the difference. There was nothing like the toothbrush scene. Or it there was, it was extremely rare

And high level humor tends to be extreme. In Japan for example there is ero-guro-nonsense. Western high level humor may involve coprophilia. Uhmm... have you ever seen for example Monthy Python's Meaning of Life?

Quote:

Seeing someone stepping on your head with your foot whilst offering their virginity be it in a serious or comedic context appears very sexist to me.

It is not. It is comedy.

Then again, I once read a review of Sin City according to which it was sexist the scene of the girl who offered herself to the man who saved her. In a sense, even Senjougahara can be considered victim of a sexist conception Someone helps you? Just thank him.

Quote:

It was made blantantly obvious that Araragi and his sisters were on so-so terms at the start of Nise. Regardless, this episode made no effort to progress the plot or develop characterisation

Not even the date episode progressed the plot. It could have been written off screen. It could have just be mentioned in passing. And the story was supposed to be about another character. I heard nobody complaining

And if you think about, nobody complained at the start of Mayoi Snail there was Hitagi, even though the story was supposed to be about Hachikuji and not her

I don't think they had sex. Just not the vibe I got from that last scene. The scene which shows them falling down, holding eachother, has this "softer" aura to me. The background is clouded and glows in pink and in all cute rainbow colors.

Of course there is no way of knowing. Karen was awfully eager to offer her virginity to Koyomi. Probably for laughs but, considering that she thought Koyomi would insert the toothbrush into her butt, such impure thoughts/action may not be that farfetched. Koyomi was also ready to start exploring further before Tsukihi interrupted.

I don't know. It was a confusing and heated situation. Maybe Tsukihi walking in on them gave them a wake up call, and they decided to just... "play it safe" before she gets back from the store.

How does on why a toothbrush scene being criticized due to it not only being incestuous and irritating but irrelevant to advancing the plot, is considered irrelevant to this episode discussion.

Which plot?

Lets be honest, nobody watches it for that maybe some but they're very few people who fay dreams of a plot, this series is so character based that it doesn't matter what are they doing but the relationship (a weird one) between them.

And as you can see here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by omimon

Here is the thing. I'm super bias. I was the one who originally translated the toothbrush scene a long time so I like to think that I had a part in it when it came to the hype of this episode. It's sorta like seeing the stepchild you adopted finally getting married. Even then I have to agree that this episode really is useless and doesn't contribute to the overall story. I admit that it really is just Nisio jacking off with a pen. With that in mind I STILL think that this is the best thing to happen to this series.

People cares more about events like this rather than the barely existent plot .

One thing I saw on 4chan was that they were debating on if these two had sex after the episode ended. In the end they agreed that they just made out.

So what do you guys think? I'm pretty sure they didn't have sex but maybe a couple of kisses here and there wouldn't have hurt.

Kissing at best (they already did it once anyway), but I think they just sticked to toothbrushing. Knowing Tsukihi would come back soon must have acted as enough of a brake to prevent them from going to far.

I find it really hilarious that Koyomi felt absolutely nothing washing his sister's naked body a few episodes ago, yet he went nuts from brushing her teeth. I loved this line: "Huh? Huh? Huh? This is just a possibility, but... could it be my sister is the cutest girl in the world?"

Not even the date episode progressed the plot. It could have been written off screen. It could have just be mentioned in passing. And the story was supposed to be about another character. I heard nobody complaining

And if you think about, nobody complained at the start of Mayoi Snail there was Hitagi, even though the story was supposed to be about Hachikuji and not her