I shoot piles of 165 Matrix and the lead comes clean up to just under the top so there is really no cavity to speak of and they open like gang busters.

I am thinking the first thought of a bullet needing a deep hole could be a misconception. The ones with lead closer to the tip should be less likely to loose a tip on impact. But this is just my opinion. The 215 Hybrids I hunted with this year have a huge cavity and all opened well. So maybe all this tip stuff is not all that important and we are looking for a problem that does not exist? Time and testing will tell.

I am thinking the first thought of a bullet needing a deep hole could be a misconception. The ones with lead closer to the tip should be less likely to loose a tip on impact. But this is just my opinion. The 215 Hybrids I hunted with this year have a huge cavity and all opened well. So maybe all this tip stuff is not all that important and we are looking for a problem that does not exist? Time and testing will tell.

Jeff

I think there may be some room to use the tip cavity to "tune" the way the Berger type bullet performs. The depth of the cavity would definitely change the hydraulic pressure inside the tip and should in turn affect how bullet opening is started.
Bottom line, I think is picking your shot and stick it in the ribs, IMO your testing shows shot placement is the first key factor in one shot cold bore kills!!

My dad played with just cleaning up the tips and hole a little using some Redneck tech and I would be very, very careful doing it, I don't think we'll be doing any more!! Deer it was OK on but from what we saw we were not going to shoot an elk with a trimmed bullet!

Elmer Keith woulda just shook his head and laughed at all of this. Bergers/smk/amax are TARGET BULLETS. Therefore ....thin jackets and no expansion control. If you use a long for caliber projectile they will work like a charm. Before bondage we all looked at sd as a indicator of expansion/retention/penetration. Barnes and other bullet makers have sucessfully minimized the role sd plays in killing stuff.
The problem with this is when you go back to a traditional style bullet and forget what effect sd has on performance.
Same thing on this expansion controversy. Shoot a thin jacket into something and it will expand with enough velocity.
We as hunters have been too caught up in SOOOOPER BOOOOOLITS.
Shoot a long for caliber target bullet into an animal and it will wreck stuff. Shoot a 110gr .308 and it wont.
SD is the end all of non bonded/partitioned performance and as Broz said the pencil issue isnt a big deal with a thin jacket closed tip or not.
I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the stuff I see on forums about bullets is directly related to not understanding SD and traditional bullet performance. Im guessin a lot of guys dont remember when a premium bullet was a core-lokt.

My dad played with just cleaning up the tips and hole a little using some Redneck tech and I would be very, very careful doing it, I don't think we'll be doing any more!! Deer it was OK on but from what we saw we were not going to shoot an elk with a trimmed bullet!

Elmer Keith woulda just shook his head and laughed at all of this. Bergers/smk/amax are TARGET BULLETS. Therefore ....thin jackets and no expansion control. If you use a long for caliber projectile they will work like a charm. Before bondage we all looked at sd as a indicator of expansion/retention/penetration. Barnes and other bullet makers have sucessfully minimized the role sd plays in killing stuff.
The problem with this is when you go back to a traditional style bullet and forget what effect sd has on performance.
Same thing on this expansion controversy. Shoot a thin jacket into something and it will expand with enough velocity.
We as hunters have been too caught up in SOOOOPER BOOOOOLITS.
Shoot a long for caliber target bullet into an animal and it will wreck stuff. Shoot a 110gr .308 and it wont.
SD is the end all of non bonded/partitioned performance and as Broz said the pencil issue isnt a big deal with a thin jacket closed tip or not.
I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the stuff I see on forums about bullets is directly related to not understanding SD and traditional bullet performance. Im guessin a lot of guys dont remember when a premium bullet was a core-lokt.

I think Elmer would be floored with the improvements in every area. Laugh no I don't think so, he would probably have an issue with the distance shots are being taken today, since back then 500yrds was a damned long shot. The old school conventional thinking still applies for sure when your using the older calibers in the old school method. SD isn't the end all of anything never has been, just like BC it's an indication of possible performance relative 1 and only 1 area of bullet performance. You take 2 bullets of the same caliber and same bullet weight, with bullet A being cheap mass manufactured bullet and B being carefully engineered, with a tapered jacket, and construction being very tightly controlled at every step you will get 2 very different performances at every step of bullet performance. Be it exterior ballistics or terminal ballistics. Even though both bullets have the same basic design.

I do remember cor locket bullets very well, and power point, power lokt. That's all my Dad would buy when I was a kid, what ever was cheapest, I also remember him having one blow up on a spine shot on a cow elk, and proclaiming that a 270 was no good because of it. An issue I've never ever experience since I started reloading, and learned that bullet makers are very good at making a better product.

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Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.