I have tried to ignore this thread because I hate, hate weighing on controversial topics on a message board, I do no enough of that at work.

Spin's comment about "they do surveys" and mother's reaction reminded me of family vacation road trips to the Grand Canyon during my teenage years. This was back in the early 90's, before the Indians were good and when the pc movement was in its infancy. We stopped at a Navaho flea market in Arizona. I saw 4 grown men and younger men with Indians caps on- Chief Wahoo. Me, being the out-going person that I am, went up and talked to them- saying hey that's my team, I'm from Cleveland and since we have a connection how about dropping that price on that topaz necklace that I want to by my girlfriend. I also asked two of the people in the Indians hats if they found that logo offensive because there is a movement to get these nicknames abolished. Both of them said that not one of them cares or is offended by it and I'm pretty sure they spoke for the vast majority of at least the people they knew.

Small sample size? Yes. A true sample size of actual Native Americans versus white guilt or some person with 1/10th Cherokee blood who lives in Hudson? Absolutely. Does it make it right? Maybe, maybe not.

Me? that pretty much sold me on the chief until recent years that I chose not to wear it because I just think it's a goofy logo that has passed its sell by date. My personal decision that I made but I certainly don't judge anyone who does wear it unless they do it to "piss people off." I got my block C hats, 70's style C and a few shirts with the script Indians and I'm good to go.

If Chief Wahoo goes, IMO, all sports mascots referring to any nationality should go, and the tomahawk chop should be banned at any sporting event, because thats worse than Chief Wahoo IMO. I've never understood the protests/complaints against it. I guess we should just have the most generic mascots in sports possible because anything closely related to anything might offend someone,somewhere. I have to add this too, since I have moved to the south from Ohio a lot of people here call me a "Yankee". That offends me a bit, so should I protest the New York "Yankees" because I am offended by that name, and will it ever get changed because of my protests?NO.Why? Because the Yankees are the biggest franchise in Major League Baseball and they will stay the Yankees forever. Why should it be any different for the Indians?

I also love the idea that because people are white, they're opinion isn't valid.

Or the lame ass line "white guilt'. I don't feel guilty for shit, my people where still in Bavaria when crackers were raping and stealing from the natives. I just think it's stupid to use an ethnic group as a mascot. That's all.

I grew up in a school system that had an Indian nickname and logo, named after the township the school was in. They had Native Americans run out on the field in full dress before games. I got my ass kicked very Friday night for the Chippewas ("Chipps").

We've never heard any of that crap about changing names and logos, except for an occasional bleeding heart looking for something to bitch about. Thank god acid rain came along and they jumped on that bandwagon and left us alone...

My friends of American Native descent have no real issues with the Tribe or the Redskins. In fact they find it pretty cool our nation's capitol cherished football franchise chose to be the Redskins. They feel there may be a message in there somewhere.

Now they are annoyed the Tribe doesn't win more, and the "skins" have been in the dumpster for awhile.

Spin wrote:I grew up in a school system that had an Indian nickname and logo, named after the township the school was in. They had Native Americans run out on the field in full dress before games. I got my ass kicked very Friday night for the Chippewas ("Chipps").

We've never heard any of that crap about changing names and logos, except for an occasional bleeding heart looking for something to bitch about. Thank god acid rain came along and they jumped on that bandwagon and left us alone...

Being named after an actual tribe doesn't seem to be quite as offensive as a term such as Redskins or Redmen, unless your named after a bunch of 40 year olds who didn't use sunscreen at a Sandals Resort.

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

^^^^thats a great point, because if history has shown us anything, it's that when the majority of Cleveland sports fans think something, they are never wrong.

Also, I'm being swayed my your ironclad argument that it's been brought up before so we should never have to discuss it again; and that racism exists in other places so there's no need to worry about it here.

FUDU wrote:Honestly mo, what is it about the chief Wahoo logo that carries such a racist context?

It is b/c it is an Indians face smiling?

Is it b/c it is just an Indians face?

I respect your opinion so I am asking honestly.

Sorry FU, missed this earlier.

I'm not sure and I'm not trying to come of like I think I'm some kind of expert on racism or the plight of the American Indian. But when I look at Chief Wahoo, I see a caricature that exaggerates every stereotypical quality associated with a race of people that our ancestors damn near wiped off the face of the earth. The red face and the big hook nose.

I look and I can't see a damn bit of difference between the logo and the black caricatures with the big red lips, nappy hair carrying watermelons...or the Asian with his squinty eyes and big buck teeth.

The Chief was made at a time when the overt racism was an accepted norm and he only furthers the idea that these people are somehow lesser humans.

And I absolutely understand that the vast majority of Cleveland fans don't feel anything remotely like that when looking at the Chief. Therein lies the problem.

Maybe I'll expound on a few of these thoughts later because I understand that I've come off as completely fanatical in this thread. I understand that the majority of you could care less and are sick of this. Feel free to just skip over the thread then.

FUDU wrote:Honestly mo, what is it about the chief Wahoo logo that carries such a racist context?

It is b/c it is an Indians face smiling?

Is it b/c it is just an Indians face?

I respect your opinion so I am asking honestly.

Sorry FU, missed this earlier.

I'm not sure and I'm not trying to come of like I think I'm some kind of expert on racism or the plight of the American Indian. But when I look at Chief Wahoo, I see a caricature that exaggerates every stereotypical quality associated with a race of people that our ancestors damn near wiped off the face of the earth. The red face and the big hook nose.

I look and I can't see a damn bit of difference between the logo and the black caricatures with the big red lips, nappy hair carrying watermelons...or the Asian with his squinty eyes and big buck teeth.

The Chief was made at a time when the overt racism was an accepted norm and he only furthers the idea that these people are somehow lesser humans.

And I absolutely understand that the vast majority of Cleveland fans don't feel anything remotely like that when looking at the Chief. Therein lies the problem.

Maybe I'll expound on a few of these thoughts later because I understand that I've come off as completely fanatical in this thread. I understand that the majority of you could care less and are sick of this. Feel free to just skip over the thread then.

Except you RatTail...you keep posting. It only makes me look better.

I think you hit the nail on the head - that the vast majority of fans don't feel racism when looking at the Chief.

I know for me, it's holding hands with my Dad as he scurried me thru the muny lot toward the old stadium trying to make it in time for a twi-night doubleheader. Watching the Chief at Municipal getting closer and closer. And as that kid it never occured to me, or better said, I was oblivious to the obvious racial sterotypes of the thing.

Kinda like certain music. Many of us talked about this earlier this year when Clarence Cleamons passed. It's not so much that he represented "great music" persay, it's that he represented a time in many of our lives that was worth remembering.

So, partly because of this, and partly because I can be an apathetic asshole at times, I pretty much ignore the topic. Don't really care.

But, if I'm cornered on the topic, Christ, it's pretty clear how the thing can be viewed as extremely offensive. And if it goes, it's clearly justifiable.

Lastly, I've found that on just about all topics, if you go "Bizzaro Rat Tail" you're pretty much right on the money.

FUDU wrote:Honestly mo, what is it about the chief Wahoo logo that carries such a racist context?

It is b/c it is an Indians face smiling?

Is it b/c it is just an Indians face?

I respect your opinion so I am asking honestly.

Sorry FU, missed this earlier.

I'm not sure and I'm not trying to come of like I think I'm some kind of expert on racism or the plight of the American Indian. But when I look at Chief Wahoo, I see a caricature that exaggerates every stereotypical quality associated with a race of people that our ancestors damn near wiped off the face of the earth. The red face and the big hook nose.

I look and I can't see a damn bit of difference between the logo and the black caricatures with the big red lips, nappy hair carrying watermelons...or the Asian with his squinty eyes and big buck teeth.

The Chief was made at a time when the overt racism was an accepted norm and he only furthers the idea that these people are somehow lesser humans.

And I absolutely understand that the vast majority of Cleveland fans don't feel anything remotely like that when looking at the Chief. Therein lies the problem.

Maybe I'll expound on a few of these thoughts later because I understand that I've come off as completely fanatical in this thread. I understand that the majority of you could care less and are sick of this. Feel free to just skip over the thread then.

Except you RatTail...you keep posting. It only makes me look better.

That's a fair response, and I think Lead hit on a good point as well about times past and remembering.

But one thing I take from your post mo, and correct me if I'm way off, is that you seem to truly believe the logo was done in the caricature style it was with a significant amount of intention to subtly or not so subtly poke fun at the Native Americans.

Me, I see the smile of Chief Wahoo as a portrayal of an optimistic outlook for the team and their upcoming games. An angry looking Chief with a tomahawk wouldn't seem to be the way to go either, no? Would it be better if the Chief wasn't smiling,I don't now, but it would be more accurate.

Maybe the logo should be more like :-/ regardless of what type of figure should replace the Chief.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Being in Australia don't here much of the arguments in regard to Chief Wahoo, has there been any talks at all about a reduced Presence of Chief Wahoo in 2013, or will he still be on the sleeve of all uniforms and on the home cap.

I have noticed a reduced number of appearances of him in the last 3 years, and just wondering if front office are moving closer to reducing the Chief even more?

Just get rid of the fucking logo(and the stupid team name for that matter). This isn't India, so we have no Indians. If the team was called the Cleveland Shines, had a grinning minstrel logo, would that be ok? If they were called the Cleveland Heebs, had a Goebbels inspired logo with a big hook nose, would that be ok?

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Just get rid of the fucking logo(and the stupid team name for that matter). This isn't India, so we have no Indians. If the team was called the Cleveland Shines, had a grinning minstrel logo, would that be ok? If they were called the Cleveland Heebs, had a Goebbels inspired logo with a big hook nose, would that be ok?

"I don't want to give into PC pressure"

Fuck you. That's the dumbest argument ever.

I've always believed that telling someone "fuck you" is the most persuasive argument around. Surely there has never been anyone not persuaded by this argument.

If we get rid of Chief Wahoo, we have to change the name of the team, the block C just doesn't make sense. We are the Cleveland "Indians" after all. If you are of the stance that The Chief is offensive, why then is the name not just as offensive to you?

Ehhh Lets just rename the team after whichever sponsor would pay the most. I would be okay with the Cleveland Car Care and Tires or Cleveland Frozen Custards if it meant an extra $10 million a year One small caveat though, I demand the new logo would have to be either a smiling tire or an ice cream cone....and it would have to be red.

Why not just call them the Cleveland Bohunks? The logo could be 4 polish guys trying to figure out how to screw in a light bulb. I feel like it kills 2 birds with one stone, you get your bigotry and it's more historically accurate to the population demographic of the area.

My back up name is kind of wordy, but it works on the same level. The Cleveland Bug Eating Micks. The logo would feature a intoxicated red haired man with raised fist, while his spouse cowers in fear of the reckoning.