Foxxinnia:I'm not really clear on just how "independent" this panel is exactly. This Phil Scranton guy is from Liverpool. So is Peter Sissions. You got the Bishop of Liverpool even. Katy Jones produced a documentary on the disaster. And then there's this lawyer who specializes in pursuing police abuse and neglect cases. It seems he might be a bit biased to finding the police culpable. So that's five people on a panel of nine who would seem to be less than independent in this matter.

As an Arsenal fan I'll say the following to you: YOU REALLY GOING TO GO HERE WITH THAT?! REALLY?!

Considering the new information shows that the events at Hillsborough during and afterward were a complete and total FUBAR by the South Yorkshire Police, you really have no standing here.

ClavellBCMI:Decillion: So how did they manage to clean up all the in-stadium fighting? You don't hear about that happening in England anymore.

By making all seating non-bench seating (as in, what one sees in modern American NFL/MLB stadiums), as opposed to general-admission bench seating as in days of old, combined with pricing the seats *just* out of the range of most of the dirt-poor hooligans that farked over the reputation of English footie for decades, as well as *much* better pre-entry policing and screening, to keep out the weapons and such.

there was no bench seating. Terraces, like those at Hillsborough, were stepped concrete banks, split into pens with metal fences (with the rather lovely touch of inward facing metal overhangs so people couldn't climb up and onto the pitch). The two central pens had a combined capacity of 1600, but had well over 2200 people in them. Then the police opened an exit gate and let 2000 more people in, largely due to the police commander thinking that a riot was going to break out outside the ground. Due to a clusterfark in the entrance to the terrance, those 2000 people were herded into those same, already full to capacity pens down a ridiculously sloped ramp. There's also the small footnote in the report that the authorities were concerned about Hillsborough's safety at least two years before that day, and that there had been reports of crushes in the stadium in 1988.

In short, this disaster was going to happen sooner rather than later at a football match in England and one of the truly mindnumbing things is that it took the deaths of 96 people to fundamentally change how the game is policed, how fans are treated, etc. It's a disgrace

I've been a huge Everton supporter since 1980, but on one of my trips to England, I went to Liverpool so I could pay my respects at the memorial at Anfield.

Within seconds I was weeping uncontrollably, for days after I would just burst in to tears if I thought about it. What blew me away is how young so many of the victims were. Plus, I flashed on some very scary situations at general admission concerts I'd been too, the worst being certain that I going to be crushed to death at a Clash concert because I was on the barrier in the middle and when the show started, everyone in back of me started surging forward. Thank you big burly security guard who pulled me up over the barrier, whoever you are.

DemoKnite: Losing one life at a football match is awful, but really it was the culture at the time. The first thing you thought about UK football in the 80s was hooliganism. Britons were banned from attending many international matches at that time and there was the similar Ibrox disaster before that.

When I told my parents that I was going to a couple of Everton matches in England (this was the late 90's), they completely freaked out, I had to prove to them that it wasn't like the 70's and 80's any more before they calmed down.

drunk_bouncnbaloruber: While we're on the topic of stadium disasters, what exactly happened at Heysel? I see the video, but I still don't fully understand what happened?

The final never should have taken place at that stadium, it was a crumbling shiatehole to begin with. I know some football fans miss the atmosphere at matches and the the crowd energy since it's gone all-seating in England, but I'd never go to a standing-only match.

One side note of the Heysel disaster is that because of it, English teams were banned from Europe for years. Heyesel was in May, 1985, Everton had won the league in the 1984-85 but they were banned from the European Cup (as the Champions League was called then). The won the league again in 1986-87 and finished second in 1985-86 but all for naught. A lot of Toffees fans think they'd have won the European Cup in 1984-85 but how different would Everton history had been if they had?

cptrios:drunk_bouncnbaloruber: While we're on the topic of stadium disasters, what exactly happened at Heysel? I see the video, but I still don't fully understand what happened?

Wikipedia describes it pretty well I think:

At approximately 7 p.m. local time, an hour before kick-off, the trouble started.[8] The Liverpool and Juventus supporters in sections Y and Z stood merely yards apart. The boundary between the two was marked by temporary chain link fencing and a central thinly policed no-man's land.[9] Missiles began to be thrown across the divide. Fans were able to pick up stones from the terraces beneath them.As kick-off approached, the throwing became more intense. A group of Liverpool fans moved towards the side perimeter wall, near to the corner flag. Some tried to climb over the wall to escape. Many escaped; however, the wall could not withstand the force of the fleeing Juventus supporters and collapsed.It was at this point that the majority of the deaths occurred - 39 people died, and a further 600 were injured.[9][10] Bodies were carried away on sections of iron fencing and laid in piles outside, covered with giant football flags. As police and medical helicopters flew in, the down-draught blew away the modest coverings.

Yeah, that's a case where it was pretty clear that Liverpool supporters were at fault for causing that.

There's an article on ESPNFC up now where it points out that Heysel probably helped create the myth that Liverpool supporters caused Hillsborough to happen. It's worth a read.

DemoKnite:socalnewwaver: DemoKnite: While the Hillsborough disaster has gotten a lot press over the years, I still think it pales in comparison to the Bradford City stadium fire a few years earlier.

with all due respect to the 56 who lost their life in the bradford fire, the hillsborough disaster cost more lives, and had the fans themselves directly and inappropriately blamed for the tragedy.

i fail to see how that "pales in comparison".

unless you're simply referring to the drama of watching the fire on tv.

Losing one life at a football match is awful, but really it was the culture at the time. The first thing you thought about UK football in the 80s was hooliganism. Britons were banned from attending many international matches at that time and there was the similar Ibrox disaster before that. Considering the working class nature of fans at the time, standing room only ticketing, and hooliganism that was rampant, it was easy to pin blame on the people instead of the police. Shame it took all this time for it to be cleared.Bradford and Hillsborough both played out on TV (Bradford wasn't live I dont believe), but lets be honest, it's Bradford City and not Liverpool. The third division and not the first. As an empathetic human being, seeing people literally on fire is a bit harder to stomach than seeing people crawling over fences and being lifted into the second level. Thats why, in my opinion, it pales in comparison. You can continue to sing "youll never walk alone" in your Gerrard jersey while chanting "justice for the 96" and I wont hold it against you. It's your opinion.

It's a legitimate argument. It's something I won't contest.

/Bearing in mind that I am a newer LFC supporter, relatively speaking//But even if I wasn't, I have no tolerance for grave injustices and such a gross lack of professionalism like Hillsborough and the 23 yrs since.

socalnewwaver:DemoKnite: While the Hillsborough disaster has gotten a lot press over the years, I still think it pales in comparison to the Bradford City stadium fire a few years earlier.

with all due respect to the 56 who lost their life in the bradford fire, the hillsborough disaster cost more lives, and had the fans themselves directly and inappropriately blamed for the tragedy.

i fail to see how that "pales in comparison".

unless you're simply referring to the drama of watching the fire on tv.

I agree and the victims of the fire did not have the right wing tabloids adding insult to injury by making up stories that victims that escaped death were urinating on the dying and robbing them and assaulting the police and the ambulance crews and holding them back -- but I could be wrong the right wing tabloids could have done that at the fire as well

Decillion:So how did they manage to clean up all the in-stadium fighting? You don't hear about that happening in England anymore.

By making all seating non-bench seating (as in, what one sees in modern American NFL/MLB stadiums), as opposed to general-admission bench seating as in days of old, combined with pricing the seats *just* out of the range of most of the dirt-poor hooligans that farked over the reputation of English footie for decades, as well as *much* better pre-entry policing and screening, to keep out the weapons and such.