Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

is my spec, i would NEVER suggest taking SI glyph over maul since you are really just WAY TOO dependant on your multi hitting maul for aoe fights

It's difficult but very doable to go without the maul glyph, I raid with SI, FR, and growl. Just gotta swipe/maul tab swipe/maul through them.

Originally Posted by Aùssa02

But i read somewhere here that i shouldn't be using FB in a spec like this while dpsing.. how come really? i can't see it as a real dps loss when i have over think its 8 secs left on both SR and Rip? ofc im not doing as much damage with it as a real kitty dps, but i do deal quite abit dmg (12k crits aren't rare for me in raid enviroment) so please explain that to me

It's about damage per energy, a well geared and specced cat is critting for 20k. If your shred does the same damage as your bite then it's better to waste the points and shred some more.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

Kreth,

Good afternoon. There is a lot of conjecture going on in this thread and quite a lot misinformation. This discussion can be boiled down very quickly to the following:

If you are in anyway concerned about being the best you can be as a feral cat or as a feral bear there is no way to fit it into one spec and one glyph set period. The dps loss in particular is bad from a cat perspective and you lose a few tricks or very help skills from the bear perspective. As a former raid leader, class leader and just plain raider it is something that would have been unacceptable from a fellow raider. It would have been expected that the individual or the guild, should the guild be the one asking for the change, front the gold to be the best you can be.

However, if this is about non-relevant content (i.e. Naxx, 10 Uld, 10 ToC, etc) or heroics then I think you will get a lot of milage out of what you are doing and as long as you are a heads up player will very easily hold your own. I think once you address what you are trying to accomplish with your druid, be it end game raiding vs. a more casual non progression heroics and occasional raid, your choice and what you are giving up and/or gaining becomes clear.

Regardless, keep having fun and enjoying the game. Druids are entirely too wonderful. On a side note, should you be interested in some easy to digest but great starter advice on min/maxing your feral druid hit up Elitist Jerks, in particular the Feralbynight thread. It may also help to illuminate precisely what you are giving up via the hybrid spec and if you feel that those glyphs, points, etc are worth it. Which far outweighs the I do this and I like it opinions that are sneaking into this thread.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

Originally Posted by Aùssa02

is my spec, i would NEVER suggest taking SI glyph over maul since you are really just WAY TOO dependant on your multi hitting maul for aoe fights
i pick imp mangle over Predatory Instincts as i still tank the most of the time, i don't feel a need for having infected wounds as we always have either a frost dk dps or a war tank with thunderclap for heroics, i bet i don't need it with my gear level :P

1/3 imp mangle.. id say just don't go with imp mangle or go it fully, half arsing it isn't doing any good really.. its been theorycrafting about it since it went live, and results may vary but.. bottomline is it is either all 3 points or none at all

Glyphs are VERY easy to swap out fight per fight, some fights have zero AoE and maul glyph is just a waste of space.
Hybrid spec glyphing is usually Savage Roar + combo per fight, most often rip + SI or FR as a better oh shit just in case.
As i stated with my 1/3 mangle it was for energy off mangle in cat(at the time no manglebot), the all or nothing imp mangle is for tanking rotation and mangle cooldown not energy.

ishish111

As a former raid leader, class leader and just plain raider it is something that would have been unacceptable from a fellow raider.

There's no better offtank possible or more optimal for a ton of fights than a bear that can dps.

Vrachara

and the talents you are putting in for cat stuff could instead be used towards more things for the bear (like you're picking up KotJ instead of Master Shapeshifter f. ex. while the second is clearly more useful as a bear).

I would never ever take master shifter as a tank, if your threat is that fail that you need to spend 5 whole talent points on 4% bear damage you're useless and need to look at the rest of your game and what you're screwing up to high heaven.

Spec hybrid to be a tank that can dps a ton more than any other tank while not tanking, not a cat that can tank.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

Originally Posted by axxey

I would never ever take master shifter as a tank, if your threat is that fail that you need to spend 5 whole talent points on 4% bear damage you're useless and need to look at the rest of your game and what you're screwing up to high heaven.

Considering you either spend 5 talent points on threat or 3, where would you spend those extra 2 points?

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

One thing to remember in a raid envirnment is that if ou happen to have a fury warrior with you, the Rampage buff does NOT stack with Master Shapeshifter. I was running a heroic on the rare occasion of deepsing it and found that by having the warrior in the group I gained 1% crit [before other buffs]. Maybe that was a bug, but seems like the easiest 5 points [3 mana cost, 2 buff] to drop in the feral/resto trees.

[Your toast has been burned and no amount of scraping will remove the black]

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

I never ever accepted that blizz wanted us to keep kitty and bear apart when speccing, so i have always been running with a kitty/bear spec and it works wonders id have to say

I don't accept marijuana not being legal, but that doesn't mean I smoke it in front of the police station.

Accept it, don't accept it, regardless of which you won't be as fully capable a dps or tank as someone who does specialize in one at the cost of the other. There were many many Blue posts on this during the Beta for WotLK, you have a choice. You can be great at one, average at the other, vice versa, or mediocre at both. If you choose to try and continue straddling the fence you can, but you also need to understand that someone can outperform you in either role because they specialized.

Personally, I'm not sure what your intention with the post is, other then to tell us you're straddling the fence, and linking your armory to verify for us that as such you're not on the edge of progression, where straddling just wouldn't cut it.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

The Arms warrior has pet names for all his weapons, while the Fury warrior shows up for battle drunk and half clothed.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

Originally Posted by getefix

Considering you either spend 5 talent points on threat or 3, where would you spend those extra 2 points?

For my regular tank build, I put them into imp bash (nice for Jaraxx / faction champ in toc; we'll see if it's useful in icc) or KotJ (more for feeling like i've got more buttons to push in cat form when I'm offtanking than for the bear form benefit, although that doesn't hurt either, especially with the new set bonus). Could also put them in Shredding Attacks for a different cat boost.

I don't really think it matters either way which one you take; the two extra points are in optional or situationally useful talents, just like the 4% crit for cat form is.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

i would never take the OP to a raid. i dont care about emergency tank or whatnot. if the MT goes down, i doubt your half bear-kitty crap will save the raid.
if you meant this for 5mans, its just as bad since your not doing your best and holding everyone back. heroics are ez so you dont need "emergency tanks".

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

Originally Posted by Aùssa02

Sorry i fixed it for ya ^^

in a raid, i need nothing for tanking that i am not getting in a hybrid kitty/bearspec ALOT classes can now give the Infected Wounds debuff and you will most likely have it from another class, i always do have it atleast and that is the ONLY thing i miss from a "proper" bear spec :P

Ignoring facts does not change them.

I've not insulted you, although clearly you have an opinion that is different to the majority of people who raid, yet you feel the need to take an arrogant attitude in the assumption that you are correct.

You are not.

Casual raid Ulduar and TotC normal mode all you like with that spec and I hope you have fun doing that, but stop trying to suggest that spec would ever work in all raids.

Just stuff like requiring a warrior etc to run over to your mobs and thunderclap them for you every 30 seconds is full of fail. :

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

1. I think you need to take a look at the specific tradeoffs involved, and where this spec would be used. I'm very skeptical of blanket statements here.

2.

Originally Posted by Sidonis

Personally, I'm not sure what your intention with the post is, other then to tell us you're straddling the fence, and linking your armory to verify for us that as such you're not on the edge of progression, where straddling just wouldn't cut it.

How more insulting could you be? Yes, I am more progressed on other toons, but to 'go there' brings the level of the conversation down. If you don't have anything constructive to add don't bother posting. Seriously.

ishish: Thanks for the measured and thoughtful response. I would respond that I have done a lot of research into the specifics of this spec. I'll certainly take a look at what EJ has to say about this hybrid spec. I do think it is situational-- in a lot of fights, a tank will be in bear (or, if things go right, a dps will be in kitty) 100% of the time. In these cases, it's absolutely better to spec specifically for bear or kitty. However, as axxey points out, the spec involves very little loss in one's viability as a tank. One angle by which to think about it is as a tank spec which can do decent dps. The benefit to certain fights (particularly when they have enrage timers, or just occasional adds) can be large, and there is *no better spec for an offtank* in these fights. I will research the tradeoffs more, but the only thing that has really seemed painful is the loss of infected wounds, and that's fixable with icy talons or if the other tank is also on your target.

Another angle, which people seem to have been focusing more on, is as an emergencytank. I've saved progression raids from wipes; it sounds like other druids have had similar experiences. If you absolutely don't see any space for such a hybrid spec in a progression raid, then frankly maybe you're doing some progression fights wrong. I get invited to dps certain raids because of my spec; perhaps I don't get invited to others because of my spec. This is one of the things I'm looking at, whether to have my offspec as resto or full-on kitty.

Gold (for dual spec, for additional glyphs, and so forth) is not an issue.

I think the idea to carry dps glyphs around and swap often is a great one, hadn't thought about that.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

You say the whole point of the hybrid spec is to be an emergency tank more or less in the middle of a fight.

Honestly, if the healers are letting the actual tanks die, then you going bear form and popping some cooldowns isn't usually gonna save the day any longer than it would if you were pure kitty spec, went bear and popped cooldowns.

If you want to be able to o both roles - dual spec both or if you are a tree or chicken mainly - pick either cat or bear - leave that one as default and respec it if you feel so inclined to do the other role.

Rambling aside - I only have one question for you, which I hinted at above. Why use a hybrid spec - when a kitty spec can essentially do exactly what you're so concerned about doing about as effectively as a dps warrior, a ret pally, etc...

You shouldn't design your approach to raids on relying on your healers failing to heal your tanks, nor should you ever consider trying to main tank in this hybrid spec.

Finally, to the person who said.

"If you absolutely don't see any space for such a hybrid spec in a progression raid, then frankly maybe you're doing some progression fights wrong."

There's really no space for such a hybrid spec. Progrrssion raids hinge on people doing their job properly. That spec prevents you from filling any role in the raid properly.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

Ok, we're at cross purposes here.

For fights where you want your offtank to tank for a part of the fight and the rest of it they're not needed to tank (like as you say, occasional adds) then yeah, feral with this kind of spec is awesome, as they can contribute "reasonable" dps on the boss inbetween tanking stuff.

Taking glyphs along to change them depending on requirements of the fight is sensible, yes, and something that many people do with many classes, as some fights a certain glyph will be just plain better.

I'm just saying that the attitude of, "This hybrid cat/bear spec is awesome and better than all of you!" is wrong.

It has it's place and used well, can be very valuable, but like all specs, will be better in some fights and worse in others.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

1. I think you need to take a look at the specific tradeoffs involved, and where this spec would be used. I'm very skeptical of blanket statements here.

2.
How more insulting could you be? Yes, I am more progressed on other toons, but to 'go there' brings the level of the conversation down. If you don't have anything constructive to add don't bother posting. Seriously.

ishish: Thanks for the measured and thoughtful response. I would respond that I have done a lot of research into the specifics of this spec. I'll certainly take a look at what EJ has to say about this hybrid spec. I do think it is situational-- in a lot of fights, a tank will be in bear (or, if things go right, a dps will be in kitty) 100% of the time. In these cases, it's absolutely better to spec specifically for bear or kitty. However, as axxey points out, the spec involves very little loss in one's viability as a tank. One angle by which to think about it is as a tank spec which can do decent dps. The benefit to certain fights (particularly when they have enrage timers, or just occasional adds) can be large, and there is *no better spec for an offtank* in these fights. I will research the tradeoffs more, but the only thing that has really seemed painful is the loss of infected wounds, and that's fixable with icy talons or if the other tank is also on your target.

Another angle, which people seem to have been focusing more on, is as an emergencytank. I've saved progression raids from wipes; it sounds like other druids have had similar experiences. If you absolutely don't see any space for such a hybrid spec in a progression raid, then frankly maybe you're doing some progression fights wrong. I get invited to dps certain raids because of my spec; perhaps I don't get invited to others because of my spec. This is one of the things I'm looking at, whether to have my offspec as resto or full-on kitty.

Gold (for dual spec, for additional glyphs, and so forth) is not an issue.

I think the idea to carry dps glyphs around and swap often is a great one, hadn't thought about that.

I didn't once insult your ability to play. If you're insulted by where I look at your druid's progression and the spec you're using, then you're the one who's not as comfortable with it as you would like to think. I'm also not the one with a very obvious chip on my shoulder by making statements such as "well maybe you guys aren't doing progression right if this has no value for you" yet yours is the one not in ICC, yours is the one without any ToGC kills on either 10 or 25. That's progression. Anything before that is moving through farmable content, due to current gear availability, aka Triumph Badges. If the gear off the emblem vendor for the emblems currently dropping in Heroics is equal or above where you're raiding, then you're not in progression, you're in farmland, end of story.

Natural Perfection in and of itself makes being an OT possible without the MT bear talents. The "pure" kitty spec already is capable of OT short duration mobs or "oh shit saves" where you went Bear, taunted, popped Barkskin, etc, and saved the day. You're already where no other tank-capable class is atm by being crit immune in a dps spec with the ability to go tank-mode for a short add or emergencies, without having to change spec and gear mid-fight. Pure kitty specs have been tanking Heroics since Ulduar level gear at the least, some were doing it in Naxx level gear, the difference between whether or not you have MT bear talents is whether or not you're regularly getting hit by a boss.

Enrage timers? You do understand that hitting an enrage timer is almost always a dps shortage right? And you're playing a straddling spec and therefore not providing the best dps you could be? Now I'm not saying you're personally responsible for hitting an enrage timer, but you do have some culpability by dpsing in a spec that's missing some talents in favor of some tanking ones.

If you're having enough oh shit moments that your spec is considered viable, then there is clearly a tank and/or healing issue that needs to be resolved more than you need to be straddling. If you're having enough enrage timers go off that your tanks are being smashed like bugs and you're having to "save the day" often enough that your spec feels viable, then there is a clear DPS issue that needs to be solved. These aren't hateful thoughts, they're facts of the raids you're attending.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

The Arms warrior has pet names for all his weapons, while the Fury warrior shows up for battle drunk and half clothed.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

Originally Posted by bavarcarus

I OT mimi in kitty gear and spec, stand there in bear for phase 3 taunting bombs with a measly 36k health lol

I wasn't aware you needed an ot on mimi.

As far as i'm concerned if you're using a hybrid spec and hybrid gear then you're wasting gear. If you're going to get hit hard then you need to wear tank gear and have a tank spec, and you won't be required to dps. If you're not going to get hit hard then use cat gear and cat spec until you have to dps

When i see people trying to dps and tank in the same gear and spec i see someone on an ego trip. You can't do everything in a raid. You have a role. An ot with good dps is a role that went out in tbc.

Please list fights that are a dps race where you have an opportunity to dps and tank. If it's not a dps race then you don't need to dps.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

you don't use a dps to blow up bomb bots away from the group?

There are a few cases where it may matter, icehowl on beasts, to a lesser extent jaraxxus between dealing with portals. I wouldn't want to try doing progression content in a hybrid spec that takes anything from my tanking, nor would I dps without all my glyphs and talents.

Ulduar really isn't much of a dps race these days with the gear levels attainable. ToGC can still be a strain on some groups and every bit of dps helps once you down the worms. Helping on Deathwhisper's shield is a good thing since getting through Phase 1 as fast as possible is what you should be trying to do.

My only concessions to dps as a tank are Shredding attacks and King of the Jungle. Even in tank gear/spec it's possible to do somewhat decent dps but you'll definitely do better with proper gear/spec.

Re: The much-maligned bearkitty spec

XT Hard Mode: You really don't need OT
Iron Council Hard mode: I'll grant this one, although it's a brutally easy fight.
Freya (adds): The little lashers are not a dps race, it's a control aspect of the fight. You burst those guys down too fast and everyone dies.
Mimiron (phase 2):I'll bite on this one especially on firefighter
Yogg Saron (tentacles when stunned): Sure, even dpsing the corruptors and constrictors.

Beasts of Northrend (Icehowl): Sure
Jaraxxus (between portals/volcanos) : Jaraxxus is not a DPS race. The portals are but the mistress comes out very shortly after the portal spawns. You're not going to make much difference there.

Lady Deathwhisper: Not a DPS race really. You'll spend max of 4-5 15 second periods on the boss after the adds are dead. Your hybrid spec will give you what? an extra 750 DPS? That's 56k dmg. Not very much in the grand scheme of things.

That said, I would never take a tank in hybrid spec or gear into BoN, Yogg, or Mimi (all hardmodes). Yogg P1 guardians blow up and hurt (1/0 watchers). Mimiron's Plasma Blast is serious business (or at least it was). I would never use Enrage on Gormok, I would want to have the growl glyph, I would want the Survival Instincts Glyph, and what the hell is the point of having a kitty/bear spec if you're going to load your tank gear full of 30 stam gems? If you're trying to save gold or keep your second spec for resto/pvp/whatever the hell you want then by all means. Just don't be surprised when they don't want your cheap ass tanking.

I don't really understand what the point of all this is. It's well known that you need 2 sets of gear for tanking and dpsing so why not have 2 specs? You can't dps in tank gear and you can't survive very long in dps gear. Swapping out pieces is very situational.