Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

Don't get me wrong, I loved my Moots Compact so much that I bought a Vamoots RSL to build up as a race bike. At my level, the bike isn't what's making me progressively slower. The trade-offs in performance are compensated by the durability, serviceability, and aesthetics (yes, I'm shallow). And again, the trade offs are minimal at my level, which is far, far below the professional level, and nobody is paying me to ride their bikes.

I love titanium as a bike frame material, but it has it's limits- as does every material.

Titanium bicycle frames are expensive to produce, even in mass quantities. Carbon fiber frames are much less expensive by comparison and can be built to be nearly as light, stiff, strong, etc.

All of the big name companies build high end carbon road bikes and therefore race high end carbon road bikes. This is simple marketing (race on Sunday sell on Monday). Whether or not titanium might be marginally better than carbon is frankly irrelevant.

Carbon fiber is now king because the frame can take an almost infinite number of shapes, leading to annual market changes and market driven claims of "stronger, stiffer, lighter, more compliant..." which drives demand and sales. Titanium is not amenable to such shaping (nor does it need to be, to be competitive).

Outstanding example of flawed experiment. The tubes were not designed for having a truck driven over them, they were designed for the stresses experienced by bicycle frames.

This is the same flawed argument that the disc brake fans make. Itís not a questions of ďbetterĒ itís a question of ďgood enough for the application.Ē

Iíd be very curious to talk to a company that has real engineers.... ie individuals with PhDs in material sciences who have conducted well-designed research into various building materials. Boeing, for example, would have actual engineers who have carefully studied the various materials such as Al, Ti, and CF and know their properties well.

Iíd be very curious to talk to a company that has real engineers.... ie individuals with PhDs in material sciences who have conducted well-designed research into various building materials. Boeing, for example, would have actual engineers who have carefully studied the various materials such as Al, Ti, and CF and know their properties well.

I'm a real engineer. Although I don't have a PhD in material science. But you could ask a Boeing engineer why they make airplanes structures from carbon fiber and not from titanium.

As much as I love my high-end titanium bikes, they can't compete with my plastic bikes- all "superbikes" of their respective years. The ability to precisely tune the carbon layup just simply cannot be duplicated in production on a metal frame. They're just very, very different animals, each with its own set of advantages and disadvantages.

That's if you buy that "tuning" really accomplishes anything but market speak. To me, a frame is supposed to be rigid and is a structure to enable the attachment of components in the proper locations. Tires and tire pressure has more effect than frame material. People say that steel rides better, Ti rides better, carbon fiber is too stiff; it's all BS.

That's if you buy that "tuning" really accomplishes anything but market speak. To me, a frame is supposed to be rigid and is a structure to enable the attachment of components in the proper locations. Tires and tire pressure has more effect than frame material. People say that steel rides better, Ti rides better, carbon fiber is too stiff; it's all BS.

I pretty much agree w/ this, same thing when people talk about wheels and 'ride quality'. So many other things contribute to ride quality before wheels and to be honest frames unless you have some kind of mechanical pivot built into the frame somewhere ala iso-speed.

I work for some bike racers
I've got some bikes, some guns,
and a bunch of skateboards

That's if you buy that "tuning" really accomplishes anything but market speak. To me, a frame is supposed to be rigid and is a structure to enable the attachment of components in the proper locations. Tires and tire pressure has more effect than frame material. People say that steel rides better, Ti rides better, carbon fiber is too stiff; it's all BS.

Have you ever ridden a bike that was too soft in the tail, that flexed the wheels into the brake pads? How about too stiff, that transmitted too much road vibration to the rider or rode like a cement block? Two extremes that the tuning I speak of mitigates. When you're trying to shave weight, where you put your structural strength is very, very important, no matter what material you use. The ability to make very small tweaks to a layup give carbon fiber a very large advantage in this regard.

I've owned all of the common bike frame materials, across a wide spectrum of performance profiles- usually with the same components attached as I tore down one frameset and built up another. Wheels, tires, and air pressure certainly do matter for ride quality, but frame design does have a very real impact. Certain combinations of parameters are much easier to meet with certain materials.

I don't chase the latest and greatest. I've said it before- the last real advances in road bike frame design were ten years ago. I prefer simple, reliable, and easy to work on. We'll see how I deal with the PF30 bottom bracket on my RSL (adapted to a GXP crank). I'm tired of fishing cables through frames or press-fitting much of anything. I just want to ride my bike, do a quick clean-up and lube afterwards, and get on with life.

Actually, I've had carbon fiber Cannondale and BMC frames that would flex a 32 spoke aluminum wheel into the brake pads all of the time. The seat/chain stays would flex excessively when out of the saddle. Great ride when cruising around, but when you needed to apply power they worked against you. Same wheelset in another frame would work just fine (same tire clearance). Where they chose to make the frame stiff affected how it performed.

The takeaway is that itís expensive and itís just not that good? If there was some clear performance advantage then someone would be using it. Hell, Sky has no budget limits and lives on ďmarginal gains.Ē If there was any incremental advantage theyíd be riding it. At that level, no one is leaving an edge on the table. Iíve never ridden Ti and Iím sure it has its merits, they just obviously arenít falling into the performance category.

To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

Aluminum makes a good crit frame because it's cheap (crash replacement) and you can get the required stiffness for the constant effort spikes in a weight that is acceptable. It's why the CAAD and Smartweld frames are so popular. It's not a big leap for this particular race. I think it's cool that he would do it.

Given the choice, I don't think Sagan would opt for an aluminum frame by any manufacturer over the current options he has in carbon fiber for normal World Tour Races. While the geometry certainly plays into this, material does matter over a four hour race.

Actually, I've had carbon fiber Cannondale and BMC frames that would flex a 32 spoke aluminum wheel into the brake pads all of the time. The seat/chain stays would flex excessively when out of the saddle. Great ride when cruising around, but when you needed to apply power they worked against you. Same wheelset in another frame would work just fine (same tire clearance). Where they chose to make the frame stiff affected how it performed.

Explain this please. If you put energy into a frame and make it flex where does the energy go? There are only 2 things that can happen( I'm pretty sure @asgelle would know for sure)...let's see if you get them right.

I work for some bike racers
I've got some bikes, some guns,
and a bunch of skateboards

The takeaway is that itís expensive and itís just not that good? If there was some clear performance advantage then someone would be using it. Hell, Sky has no budget limits and lives on ďmarginal gains.Ē If there was any incremental advantage theyíd be riding it. At that level, no one is leaving an edge on the table. Iíve never ridden Ti and Iím sure it has its merits, they just obviously arenít falling into the performance category.

From a performance standpoint, Ti can be made to perform really well. Steel can too, as can aluminum. You can build any of these materials into a very respectable race bike. That said, each has its own set of trade-offs when you're seeking performance, Maybe it's weight. Maybe it's comfort. Maybe it's cost.

At this moment, carbon is the most infinitely tune-able material for frame design. It's also cheaper to experiment with different layups within an existing mold to achieve a desired result that can be replicated time after time. Metal bikes rely much more heavily on the skill and knowledge of the builder (machinist, welder...) to ensure a predictable outcome.

From a performance standpoint, Ti can be made to perform really well. Steel can too, as can aluminum. You can build any of these materials into a very respectable race bike. That said, each has its own set of trade-offs when you're seeking performance, Maybe it's weight. Maybe it's comfort. Maybe it's cost.

At this moment, carbon is the most infinitely tune-able material for frame design. It's also cheaper to experiment with different layups within an existing mold to achieve a desired result that can be replicated time after time. Metal bikes rely much more heavily on the skill and knowledge of the builder (machinist, welder...) to ensure a predictable outcome.

^This^

I work for some bike racers
I've got some bikes, some guns,
and a bunch of skateboards

Explain this please. If you put energy into a frame and make it flex where does the energy go? There are only 2 things that can happen( I'm pretty sure @asgelle would know for sure)...let's see if you get them right.

In these cases, straight into the brake pads (friction), thanks to the flexible nature of the carbon layup.

Believe me, I love that wound-up feeling of a well-made steel or titanium frame. I seriously doubt much energy is converted to heat in the case of a bicycle frame, but there are likely parasitic characteristics that differ between each material.

In these cases, straight into the brake pads (friction), thanks to the flexible nature of the carbon layup.

Believe me, I love that wound-up feeling of a well-made steel or titanium frame. I seriously doubt much energy is converted to heat in the case of a bicycle frame, but there are likely parasitic characteristics that differ between each material.