When I see clergy crossing themselves during services, (typically i see the readers, because they are the most visible throughout) more often than not I see some sort of variant on the standard "forehead-sternum-right/left shoulder". I see this most often: "forehead-sternum-middle right breast-below left breast-sternum". This almost looks like they are making the sign of the vertical beam of the cross and the lower diagonal "footstep". Other times I will see them cross themselves different entirely. Is there a reason for this? Is it acceptable for laypeople to cross themselves such as this?

First, there is no "clerical" form or "lay" form of the sign of the cross.

Sounds to me like (1) the readers in question are not overly concerned that their fingers touch the same exact location every time; and (2) you are reading way too much into the way people make the sign of the cross.

Some people make big, slow, pain-stakingly deliberate movements. Others speed it along and barely manage to hit their pecs. Still others zip along with such laxity that they don't even fully touch their chest (the banjo player cross). Just a fact of life. None of these ways are actually different forms of the sign of the cross - and certainly not forms reserved for clergy.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 09:55:08 AM by pensateomnia »

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But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Ok. It just seems distinctly different from how I see most of the laypeople perform it, and it seems to be intentionally so. (it is repeated the same way) In fact, oftentimes I don't even see them touch their forehead, it seems like they just make a cross sign on their chest. (I've seen priests do this also) Is there much flexibility/individuality in how we can sign the cross?

Ok. It just seems distinctly different from how I see most of the laypeople perform it, and it seems to be intentionally so. (it is repeated the same way) In fact, oftentimes I don't even see them touch their forehead, it seems like they just make a cross sign on their chest. (I've seen priests do this also) Is there much flexibility/individuality in how we can sign the cross?

The sign of the Cross should always be made intentionally, so it's good that your clergy are doing so with intent. Yes, there are many variations, and as long as it is done in good theology and in the right state of mind, as a prayer in service to God, it could be acceptable worship (I'll leave the absolutes to God).

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Ok. It just seems distinctly different from how I see most of the laypeople perform it, and it seems to be intentionally so. (it is repeated the same way) In fact, oftentimes I don't even see them touch their forehead, it seems like they just make a cross sign on their chest. (I've seen priests do this also) Is there much flexibility/individuality in how we can sign the cross?

I have also noticed some chanters making the sign entirely over their chest. I think that this may have to do with keeping a clear line of sight to the service books and/or not bothering the chanter to his right.

I have a tendency to walk at a faster pace than most people and with an almost ramrod straight posture that leads many people to recognize the Marine Corps training I've received. This is just the way I walk, which is quite different from how other people walk. I think the fact that different people make the sign of the cross differently is very similar. Personal variations with no theological significance...

No. Every priest and every bishop I have seen, cross themselves as they and our parents have taught us, to cross ourselves. I am a chanter and don't mind offering that when I'm concentrating on chanting, I am not as conscious of my prayerfullness as I cross myself, every few minutes, it seems. I know my stavro is a little sloppier than it should be. At a wedding once, a Roman Catholic guest approached me afterward and asked me why Orthodox cross themselves twice, because that's what he'd seen me do. I acknowledged that I may make the sign of the cross once or three times, but if I did it twice, it was in error. For clergy, their vestments, while holding a book, too, as noted above, may affect the exactness of the form of making the sign of the cross.

So has anyone else heard of/noticed what seems to be a signing of the vertical post and diagonal footrest of the cross, or is this my mind playing tricks on me?

Yes, I have noticed it in the Greek Orthodox Church. I wondered about it as well.

Selam

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""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it." Selam, +GMK+

Same thing goes for prostrations and half-prostrations. Everyone does them differently. Some people touch their head to the ground; others, especially monks, just do this kind of super-fast squat thing when making dozens at a time.

Some people even blend a half-prostration with their normal cross, so they'll kind of throw their hand down a ways with a little tiny bow before and/or after making the sign of the cross.

Every body is different, so everybody moves their body in different ways.

(sounds like something from Sesame Street)

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But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

I have a tendency to walk at a faster pace than most people and with an almost ramrod straight posture that leads many people to recognize the Marine Corps training I've received. This is just the way I walk, which is quite different from how other people walk. I think the fact that different people make the sign of the cross differently is very similar. Personal variations with no theological significance...

Do you think the two finger cross ( Old Rite) is acceptable or does that cross a theological line?

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

I have a tendency to walk at a faster pace than most people and with an almost ramrod straight posture that leads many people to recognize the Marine Corps training I've received. This is just the way I walk, which is quite different from how other people walk. I think the fact that different people make the sign of the cross differently is very similar. Personal variations with no theological significance...

Do you think the two finger cross ( Old Rite) is acceptable or does that cross a theological line?

I don't think the Old Rite or the current practice is superior theologically to the other. It's probably best just to follow that which you have been taught in your own tradition and not judge those who were taught a different practice.

The "two finger" sign of the Cross (which really means that instead of these three fingers together and those two fingers together, it's THESE three fingers together and THESE two fingers together) is done in Old Ritualist parishes of our Russian Church, with the blessing of the Patriarchate and of the Russian Church Abroad.

Me too. Not sure where I picked it up. I saw a man at an Antiochian parish touch the priests' vestments, cross himself, back to the sternum and then kiss the tips of his fingers.

Yours in ChristJoe

So, why the kissing of your own fingers at the end?

I saw this last night on TV. I was watching Hell's Kitchen. I wish it was called something else...but, I was still watching it. Next week is the final show of the season. When they showed the clips for next week's drama, one of the remaining chef-wannabes, Justin, was under pressure and crossed himself....with his right hand, to the right first, then the left, and ended by kissing his fingers.

I thought perhaps he might be Orthodox, since he used his right hand, and crossed from right to left....but, the kissing of fingers seems foreign to me. I Googled him, but, was not able to verify his religious affiliation.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I also teach the kids to do so....slowly and deliberately. I also emphasize that they touch all three fingers to their forehead, shoulders and tummy..

...and when I see them approach the cross on Saturday mornings, after the morning moleben before school....and not cross correctly they hear about it in class.

If your are going to do it, do it right. If you do it wrong, than you aren't really paying attention, are you? ....but, one has to be a bit more strict with kids, to get them in to a good habit.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 11:23:25 PM by LizaSymonenko »

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Occasionally I kiss my fingers and then touch the priest's vestment if he passes near enough when he's processing with the chalice. Some people (ok, little old ladies!) go for a full kiss, but I don't want to be assaulting the priest. I figure what worked for the woman with the flow of blood is ok.