Well...I apologized to Amanda, for one & I like to learn.If it becomes mandatory to freely share all your knowledge& the fruits of your labor, Brewer's Publications won't sell too many books...will they?

Nothing is mandatory. But what is the point in coming here and saying that you've cracked the code to German lagers without telling anyone what it is? Or even worse, coming in here, saying that you haven't cracked the code, but that your secret ideas are still better than everyone else's?

Well...I apologized to Amanda, for one & I like to learn.If it becomes mandatory to freely share all your knowledge& the fruits of your labor, Brewer's Publications won't sell too many books...will they?

I got caught up on this riveting thread. I felt bad for Amanda, kind of like she fixed thanksgiving dinner for us and we ransaked the place... feeling. Then I took a shower because, im just waking up and need to get ready to go make the donuts.

The thought I had, I've seen numerous times where this forum has been adamant toward people such as Marshall, that unless you follow the exact same process, with the exact same timing, and exact same ingredients, there will always be a difference. We cheer these guys when they go to great lengths to exactly replicate those issues. Mull that over and apply it to the idea that german techniques and ingredients aren't important when trying to brew their beers as similarly as possible. I fully understand the "not enough difference for me" thinking. I'm not trying to defend or attack anyone. I'm just sharing some passing thoughts. If we should pay no attention to what german brewers do when trying to homebrew german beers, then I might suggest that we ignore what sour beer brewers are doing... throw out your oak. Ignore what west coast IPA brewers are doing... quit wasting dry hops, throw out your hop rockets hop backs and torpedos. Etc etc....

This is very close to what I've been trying to say, in the past.Obviously, this kind of discussion belongs in a thread that is different than Amanda's.Sorry Amanda, for side tracking.

I applaud you, for doing this comparison.The small problem I see lies in the fact that it is a ramped mash running through all temperatures, utilizing a lengthened single saccharification rest vs a ramped mash with 2 lengthened rests at alpha & beta temps.It's different than what I had originally thought she was attempting, because it's not a "single infusion" vs "step mash".So...It's MY understanding of what was originally stated that is the problematic flaw.

Amanda...Nice experiment.I have a feeling you'll see the results are similar, because you have hit all the same temperatures.Only time will tell, as your results are realized.

The unfortunate thing I find with this particular forum is that when you go against a theory that something is "not necessary" or "not worth doing", you get jumped on.The whole "It's been proven to me by my quadruple hexagonal blind upside-down study & my group of anonymous goatherds, in the Andes" is great...But, proving something to one group doesn't make it fact, for the entire world of brewing.Furthermore, I believe that when we evaluate homebrew, by comparing it to other homebrew, we completely miss the point of the BJCP's use of classic examples in their calibration.If a VAST amount of German beers within those classic examples have IT & a homebrew scores in the "classic example" range without having IT...I feel that was a flawed scoring of that homebrew.

I can't speak on whether Denny's lagers have "IT".I've never tasted them, to be able to compare them to the classic examples.

Bryan is absolutely not saying homebrew is a lesser product...He's saying that he holds HIS brews to a higher standard than many folks do.He wants his basement brewery to be every bit as good as a professional brewery, in Munich that produces a classic example bier.No one should ever fault him, for that.A group of us work damn hard at weeding out what we know doesn't work.When we find what absolutely does...Maybe we'll let you in on the secret.But...Maybe...Just maybe...We won't.

I gather that unless I brew your beer your way its wrong. But Im not hearing WHY from anyone. Im curious, is that how all Munich Helles are brewed in Munich? Same recipe, same water, same method, all beer is exactly the same? Seems goose-steppy to me.

Im trying to learn something here, and it sure seems like I'm hearing my Dad bark at me that I'm not doing it right with no indication of what right is, or why. Frankly, I may just decide that im done with trying to brew german beers if this is a harbinger of things to come.

I mentioned "IT" tongue in cheek at the end of that post. I should clarify, I don't beleive in IT as an articulable thing because no one can describe IT. Not to mention that if IT is supposed to be in every beer style in Germany, including smoke beers, dark beers, light beers, ales, sour beers... than IT is an emotion or some elitist mind set. So obviously I am not trying to create something I dont beleive exists. If someone can describe IT, I may change my mind.

Deep breaths... im not asking for a clone recipe, or trying to get jumped into a beer gang. I'm just looking for a little more insight on this step mash thing.

Please, don't think that anyone is telling you that your way is wrong.Here's the situation...A bunch of us have spent years chasing this.We've worked together & shared notes...We've tried countless mash schedules, grain bills, hopping schedules, etc.We know which things we have tried that simply do not work.We know several combinations of things that simply do not work.No one is telling you that you HAVE to brew this way, or you're wrong.The approach we are taking is to say, here...Let's eliminate the stuff we've tried that doesn't work.

I believe Brandon said it best, when he described IT, like this:

The 5 elements of “it” in German light lagers.

1) Aroma and first impressionsIt: Fresh malt and hop aroma – sign of good things to come. Very clean, slightly sweet but refreshingNot it: No aroma. Metallic, plastic, organic off aroma coming from the glass. Or overwhelming, cloying malt aroma, or strong, pungent hop aroma overwhelming the malt.

2) Getting intimate - First TasteIt: the “it” we refer to – fresh grain, depth of character and bright notes of a fresh field of grain and flowers. Sometimes spicy, particularly with Czech and East German Pilsners. But clean and balanced with the malt. Sometimes a minerally, salty impression from East German examples.Not it: Dull, single dimension of malt. It’s there, but not light, fresh and rich. Overwhelming hoppiness as either flavor or strong bitterness.

3) Balance of characterIt: the overall impression is of balance between malt, bitterness and hop flavor. Often floral, slightly sweet, and grainy. Rich, bright grainy flavor.Not it: Dull and flat, one dimension maltiness. Like old malt or darker malt that is heavy on the palate. Or muddy, overly complex flavors as from too many malts.

4) MouthfeelIt: Clean, crisp mouthfeel. Refreshing and you want to take another sip. Clears out quickly.Not it: Either thick and sweet or dry, puckering and thin.

5) Finish - AhhhhhIt: briefly lingering malt flavor and aroma. If you lightly exhale your breath and sniff, you get fresh malt graininess, a bit of hop aroma, and depth of aging character, slight lingering note of sulfur.Not it: Cloying sweetness or astringent dryness, almost bitter. Lingering hop bitterness that hangs in your mouth for a long time. Yeast bi

Unfortunately, I think something in the formula given might be lacking.For sure, the specific heat & mass of your vessel are missing, but that's usually a small factor.To me, there also seems to be a comparison portion of the formula missing.I'll have to dig some more.But, that information will get you extremely close.

What's more interesting is that the guy that was touting his professionalism was the first to start calling names, such as "zealot" & "self righteous", way back in this thread.

You were right, when you said "It's BEER".But, some people take their brewing more seriously than you.It's just the way of the world.Different strokes, for different folks.If you're OK with mediocre...That's cool.But, please don't tell me that my quest for real information is wrong.

Some people prefer more seriousness in the things they set out to teach or learn.I, for one, would like to learn from sources that takes my thirst for proven practices & concrete knowledge seriously.I don't want someone to just sell me kits, "stuff" & equipment.I think it's extremely sad that today's brewing culture has turned into the search for an answer to:"How can I make a buck off this hobby?".

Some of us just expect more than flawed experiments & mediocre beers.Some are on a quest to brew something that stands up to the real thing, from the real brewers...Not something that is simply "a good beer" that seems close to another "good beer".

It's fine with me that you are not on that quest.Is it fine with you that I am?

Is seems to me that if an XBMT is done, there should be some criteria set up, in advance.Maybe something like:1) Simple grain bill...Say, maybe 95% Pilsner & 5% assorted cara grains, as decided by ____(all the same German ingredients...No Briess, Rahr, or other North American/UK/Belgian substitutions)