News:

Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

I have to say that over the last few days the tone there from a lot of the posters has changed. Things have been said that in the past would have had Joe in giving one of his gentle reminders - and one of those normally worked.

It's obvious that Eastern people are not welcome .

Mebbe there should be a roll of honour ?

OH - a thought - I will have to remember to go and have a look in a wee while and see if your suspension has turned into a permanent ban.

Neil - you said

Quote

My offense was to have interfered with Moderator duties - "a serious violation of CAF rules" - regarding which I had been previously warned.

If she had been doing her job you would not need to have said anything whatsoever , and I do not think she has been doing much modding of recent times.

I almost felt like sending a message to her recently pointing out that my comments and actions [ for which I was banned permanently ] where I had questioned allowing a rumour of detailed appointments to the Hierarchy to be given in full was justified - when finally announced they were not 100% identical to the leak.

Logged

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

I have been suspended from CA for a period of 2 weeks for commenting that I recollected that the rule enunciated by Joe Monahan regarding the "U" term was that it was only verboten when used in a derogatory manner. Apparently, it was of no consequence that I subsequently edited my post to note that I had just discovered the rule to have recently changed.

*Un~be~liev~able!

I invite people to take a look at the New Catholic Dictionary which uses the word "Uniate" freely, and not simply in historical situations but in several dozen up to date contemporary articles.

Interestingly, an effort to google Joe's earlier posts on the topic was non-productive, suggesting that CA may have been successful in getting the old EC archives blocked from being searched via Google. I'm wondering if Father Ambrose or anyone else has tried that technique lately and, if so, whether they've been successful or not?

*It appears that the staff of CAF continue their attack on the historical record by hiding these posts or annihilating them from CAF archives. I find this quite unbelievable! For the Orthodox who have suffered under repressive regimes who employed the same tactics as CAF this is a chilling reminder of both the need for caution when interacting with Catholic apologists and their unfortunate willingness to falsify the historical record.

Neil, I apologise profoundly for saying that so openly but at this moment I am just aghast at CAF's censorship. I know that the CAF people are NOT representative of the majority of Catholics and what they are doing with the old archives is the behaviour of only very poor polemicists.

Interestingly, an effort to google Joe's earlier posts on the topic was non-productive, suggesting that CA may have been successful in getting the old EC archives blocked from being searched via Google. I'm wondering if Father Ambrose or anyone else has tried that technique lately and, if so, whether they've been successful or not?

*Originally Posted by Joe Monahan as CAF Moderator:ok - let's get off the argument about Uniatism.

Uniate and its derivitives have been previously deemed acceptable for use in this forum, unless used in a manner that suggests the intent is to be derogatory or baiting.

and also by Joe:As Father Ambrose has noted, the terms heretic, schismatic, uniate, and even heterodox are all permitted to be used in this forum provided that they are in context and used to legitimately and accurately describe the teaching of any one Church with regard to another or in historical context, rather than being used as tools to inflame or insult.

Joe

Source: forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2397002&highlight=uniate#post2397 002 (midway down the page) ___________________________That link is no longer accessible.

I have been suspended from CA for a period of 2 weeks for commenting that I recollected that the rule enunciated by Joe Monahan regarding the "U" term was that it was only verboten when used in a derogatory manner. Apparently, it was of no consequence that I subsequently edited my post to note that I had just discovered the rule to have recently changed. I added that postscript after I skimmed back thru the thread and discovered a post by Ms Grant containing a link to the forum policy on use of "schismatic, heretic. and uniate". Her policy had been posted the day prior and, on first glance, was seemingly a restatement of the earlier rule - until it made a 90 degree turn about halfway through the text. The new rule, as authored by Ms Grant, appears as a sticky at the top of both the EC and NCR fora. It can be viewed at forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=208849 (Father Ambrose or Michael, is my memory failing or did Joe not rule as I remembered?)

My offense was to have interfered with Moderator duties - "a serious violation of CAF rules" - regarding which I had been previously warned.

Interestingly, an effort to google Joe's earlier posts on the topic was non-productive, suggesting that CA may have been successful in getting the old EC archives blocked from being searched via Google. I'm wondering if Father Ambrose or anyone else has tried that technique lately and, if so, whether they've been successful or not?

Btw. I got a "suspended" label - guess I should have just cut my losses and signed out after a recent post in which I lamented the necessity of defending the Catholicity of my Church - an Eastern Catholic Church - from attacks by Latins. However, I was involved in posting to several informational threads and thought it only fair to finish the exchanges into which I had entered. Ah well, 10 years on the web and only suspended twice - both at CAF - says something I guess, but I'm not sure what.

Many years,

Neil

Have they lost their minds?

I was shocked to see you suspended. Because a) I've never seen anything uncharitable from you and b) you have said nothing against your submision to Rome. What's the complaint?

Reminds me too much of the Communists: bad priests (gluttons, averous, lazy etc.) didn't bother them so much, but they really went after the good ones doing charity, ministering, etc.

Perhaps you represent too well the reality of what the rhetoric of the Eastern Catholic sui juris churches says they are (yourself and the likes of Ghosty baffle me, I have to admit, loyal to Rome and the East, but I can't deny the reality).

« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 10:38:24 AM by ialmisry »

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I just came across a thread on CA forums in their Apologetics sub forum titled" I got banned from a 'Christian' forum........can you believe it?"

It started halfway through December and is up to 80 posts.

I posted a reply to that post. What follows is what I said. I think I was sufficiently diplomatic...

Quote

The Internet is one place where people on the fringe of the fringe can post their ideas in relative anonymity. As such, one is bound to find some rather "interesting" websites and forums. Some are probably worth charging into, as if to do battle, and others are best avoided. I post on one of my friend's forums, where the general belief is that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon." Ordinarily I wouldn't spend time in such a place, but since my friend invited me, I figure it's a good intellectual exercise. So far no one seems to be that mad at me.

As far as getting banned goes, in cases like this, sometimes it's best to shake the dust off your feet and go elsewhere. Catholics are not the only people subject to such things from time to time. Some of my Orthodox friends were recently banned from a Christian forum, and while they were obviously unhappy about this, the Internet is a large place, and they have found another place of discussion.

My recommendation is to pray for those who did the banning, along with all those on the Internet (and elsewhere) who are hostile to the Church. And, I think it would do all of us good to examine ourselves and see if we can be a better witness in our online ventures and other discussions. Sometimes it is possible to win a debate and lose a friend. Charity must always be in our mind, in everything we say or post.

God bless!

Personally, I'm rather glad I found Catholic Answers. It has proved to a very good source of information, and I have participated in many good discussions there. The closing of the Eastern Christianity forum, along with the purging of many of the Eastern members, however, is something which boggles the mind.

For some reason unbeknownst to me the forum changed in character almost over night, at least it seemed that way. The whole spectrum of dialogue seemed to turn inward and prevent any outside theologies from entering. Buddhism, and Hinuism had a better chance at being heard of than Eastern Christianity. But that was then, this is now.

For some reason unbeknownst to me the forum changed in character almost over night, at least it seemed that way. The whole spectrum of dialogue seemed to turn inward and prevent any outside theologies from entering. Buddhism, and Hinuism had a better chance at being heard of than Eastern Christianity. But that was then, this is now.

I think its all to do with the style of new moderation but I am sure there is an overseer even there and I guess she feels she needs to draw the line somewhere. I fell to the same hard line. I'd have been thrilled with only 2 wk suspension for inadvertently breaking a total rule. Alas, every case is different and the rule I broke carried a definite penalty. There does appear to be some discrepancy of consistency though in how the rules are made and applied on a case by case basis. And of course that's only my observation as a disgruntled bannee.

I am afraid you may have been caught at a time when transgression is not being taken lightly, even if done so in error.

Despite my recent thread in the CAF EC forum, I find myself visiting less and less, and am honestly surprised that you had any trouble with the mods.

I think any problems with the word 'uniate' should be brought up when people start complaining about its use. Blanket condemnations tend to have an ogrish perception that is not conducive to discussion.

My only suspension was from CAF too, but ironically it was Joe who dished it out to me. I did, however, deserve it

Unfortunately, that gem from which you quote was "New" only once upon a time - from its home page

Quote

This is an project to put the 1910 version of the New Catholic Dictionary online

This appears to be all the rage - having NewAdvent on-line was not confusing enough (or sufficiently supportive to those of my Latin brethren who choose to believe that there has been no change in thinking since 1911), now Catholic Community Forums (or whatever it's called) has added the above and - if you'll check CAF's site - you'll see that they have scanned in the entirety of another edition from the same era (1907, I believe). I realized that it couldn't be current when I read the text styling all Eastern and Oriental Rites as "Greek Rites" and then another describing the Ethiopian Tewahado Orthodox as "Abyssinian". Then, there was the gem to which Peter pointed in his post above

Regardless, the use of "Uniate" by Rome and even by many of our own people, clergy, and hierarchs validates the usage in my mind. Myself, I remember when it was the norm for us to use it and it actually served well to explain to confused Latin Catholics that we of the East were, indeed, Catholics - Uniate = United with/in communion with Rome. I also remember it coming to be considered pejorative and even railed about its use in my own early days on-line. Over time, I've seen that change - again - and while I'm sympathetic to those of the East and Orient who still consider it to be derogatory, I do firmly believe it not to be - generally. It's not my favorite descriptor, but it's a lot less cumbersome than typing "Eastern and Oriental Catholics" and I can certainly discern when it's being used in a derogatory manner. (No matter what anyone says, I believe that it is indeed usually possible to discern tone and intent in most internet postings, if you know your correspondent and you take the time to read and understand what's being said.)

Thanks for resurrecting Joe's comments. Those were briefer versions than the one that I had in mind, but the thought is the same.

Many years,

Neil

« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 04:56:17 AM by Irish Melkite »

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

Unfortunately, that gem from which you quote was "New" only once upon a time - from its home page This appears to be all the rage - having NewAdvent on-line was not confusing enough (or sufficiently supportive to those of my Latin brethren who choose to believe that there has been no change in thinking since 1911), now Catholic Community Forums (or whatever it's called) has added the above and - if you'll check CAF's site - you'll see that they have scanned in the entirety of another edition from the same era (1907, I believe). I realized that it couldn't be current when I read the text styling all Eastern and Oriental Rites as "Greek Rites" and then another describing the Ethiopian Tewahado Orthodox as "Abyssinian". Then, there was the gem to which Peter pointed in his post above

Perhaps the main reason why these sources predominate online (and I can't ever remember a living, breathing, real-life Catholic referencing them) is that because of their age they are public domain. And a wikipedia effect has occurred - regardless of how poor quality the information it, people continue to overuse simply because it is now very easy to access. There certainly isn't any lack of modern Catholic publications, but I don't think anything is online in the scope of these early 20th century sources.

My offense was to have interfered with Moderator duties - "a serious violation of CAF rules" - regarding which I had been previously warned.

I was purposefully circumspect, mindful of the text in the accompanying PM which cautioned against posting elsewhere the text of PMs from CAF Mods/Admins. Accordingly, I paraphrased the opening and closing phrases of the above and quoted only 6 words - which I admittedly found to be rather strong as a characterization of the level of law-breaking involved in the post which precipitated this brouhaha. I didn't share additional comments or post the identity of the sender. But, one can apparently never be too circumspect in dealing with CAF and the sensibilities of its staff.

No sooner had I finished writing my earlier post than I logged onto CAF to read the day's jottings, when what to my wondering eyes should appear than

Quote

Your account has been locked for the following reason:Publicizing pvt msgs / Repeated violations of known CAF rules

This change will be lifted: Never

So, I am now a bannee, officially cast into the darkness, welcome here and at ByzCath, but never again to darken the portals of Karl Keating's internet fora. Although I have to admit not being surprised, and rather pleased to no longer be subjected to the virulent attacks on Eastern Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and - in particular - my own Church that have become the norm there, I do have a few regrets. I'm aware that some of my friends cannot understand why I've continued to post there at all in the aftermath of the EC forum debacle, but my purpose in being on the net is just what it says beneath my nick - I'm an information mongerer.

You won't often find me debating things theological (albeit Father Ambrose and I have gone an occasional round in times past), I leave that to the apologists and theologians. Instead, I'm the guy who replies with forty links when someone asks about various styles of Eastern and Oriental chant, with forty more links in reply to a poster curious about stylistic differences in iconography from one culture to another, who creates schematics of EC Rites and Churches, who waxes locquacious about the myriad sects who arose contemporaneously with the Old Believers, and who can likely tell you chapter and verse on the episcopal lineage of your favorite neighborhood vagante episcopus, whose throne is a laz-y-boy recliner in his garage cum basilica. That's what I do -customs, history, praxis, and tradition are my stock in trade and I parcel this ecclesial minutiae out as my small contribution to helping others be aware of our Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, including our own who are not as well catechized as they should or would like to be. There were and are still those at CAF with that kind of curiousity - and I stayed there to answer their queries. But, the atmosphere is now bereft of both the kind of dialogue and the dialoguers that made it an interesting venue. It has become a ghettoized environment in which Easterns and Orientals, Catholic and Orthodox, are specimens to be examined, taunted, and, more and more frequently, targeted. Sad.

Many years,

Neil, still labeled only as "suspended"

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

Perhaps the main reason why these sources predominate online (and I can't ever remember a living, breathing, real-life Catholic referencing them) is that because of their age they are public domain. And a wikipedia effect has occurred - regardless of how poor quality the information it, people continue to overuse simply because it is now very easy to access. There certainly isn't any lack of modern Catholic publications, but I don't think anything is online in the scope of these early 20th century sources.

Nektarios,

You're correct of course as to the public domain considerations. And I don't deny that there is info in it that is useful from a historical perspective and not otherwise easily accessed on-line. However, its popularity is also in its very worst aspect - its suitability as a source of reference for those who are stuck, theologically, in the thinking of an era when triumphalism was waxing supreme. Such folk wallow in the chance to quote it, chapter and verse, as supportive of their own very narrow thinking, notwithstanding the irrelevance to anything enunciated since.

The other chief audience are the poorly catechized who, finding a link to it in a Google search, are convinced that this is the mother lode by which they can satisfy the gaps in understanding of their own faith and/or be transformed into apologists of the first order. What I find most disturbing is the unqualified referencing of it as a linked source for further info by professional apologists, such as at CAF and EWTN, when responding to queries. Such gives validity to it in the mind of many. The decision by CAF to add yet (at the very least) a third copy to the ethernet compounds the situation and makes one wonder how much of the monies reportedly needed to keep CAF afloat were expended on the notion of having their own in-house copy (scanning in 12K pages of text is no mean feat in terms of staffing expenditures).

Many years,

Neil

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

I dunno - most folk there have absolutely no idea what is going on - I mean the 'proper ' Catholics .

How long now before the remaining ECs and Orthodox posters get booted off ?

Just a thought Neil - I wonder what they are going to do with all the' stickies' that bear your name as the originator ?

There's no doubt about it - the powers that be there are watching OCnet like the proverbial hawks

ooooooh afterthought -- have you managed to save your various outlines of who belongs where and is linked with whom type masterpieces ?

Logged

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

Just a thought Neil - I wonder what they are going to do with all the' stickies' that bear your name as the originator ?

Anhelyna,

If you're referring to the Reference Threads that Joe stickied there, they are long gone - casualties when the EC Archives sank. I do have copies of most though and there are excerpts of a few (generally earlier editions) still floating over there, in various places.

Quote

have you managed to save your various outlines of who belongs where and is linked with whom type masterpieces ?

The Rites/Churches thread? If that's the one you mean, the most up-to-date version is posted on here. There's a fairly up-to-date version at CAF in the EC forum (posted post-archiving), and a slightly older version at ByzCath that needs an update. If you're referring to the Starioverdtsi thread, I managed to copy that, just before the Archives disappeared.

Many years,

Neil

« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 06:03:29 AM by Irish Melkite »

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

I was actually thinking of other things - like the one on Liturgy and Sacraments dealing with Educational Links - started by someone but last post by you

Just had a look at that - and you are shown in black with the label of Suspended - wasn't it in blue yesterday or am I dreaming ??

I wish it were possible to spread the word on CAF that these bannings of Eastern folk are still continuing. If you look at the Non-Catholic board - there are obviously 2 entirely different brands of modding going on. I'm convinced that some of the posts there are in violation of the many many rules that no-one actually bothers to read.

Logged

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

So, I am now a bannee, officially cast into the darkness, welcome here and at ByzCath, but never again to darken the portals of Karl Keating's internet fora.

Hi Neil,

For the record, I feel that you were one of the most knowledgeable and charitable posters at CAF. I learned very much from you over the years, and for that, I thank you. I have decided to limit (if not end) my participation on that forum because of the gross misinformation that now inundates the forum regarding Eastern Christianity.

This morning Neil's label was 'suspended' but as we know [ because he has told us so ] he then received his banning notice

Quote

QuoteYour account has been locked for the following reason:Publicizing pvt msgs / Repeated violations of known CAF rules

This change will be lifted: Never

]

I was reading a thread on CAF a few minutes ago

Quote

The Singularity of Truth in light of Eastern and Western Theological Expressions.

and there Neil posted on reply number 3 .

OK so far BUT there is no label now attached to his name - so is he banned as he was told ?

Has he in fact been treated as shamefully as Fr Ambrose and the others who were banned , and the label was not used so that unsuspecting folk would not realise that they had gone on permanent gardening leave ?

What gives ? Inquiring minds want to know.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 03:28:44 PM by the slave »

Logged

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

Sounds like another "kill ban" or whatever terminology is used for it now. They ban the person, delete their account but their posts stay up to prevent database chaos. The name will usually appear as some sort of guest/unregistered account.

In the immortal words of John Kruger, "You've been erased!"

That happened to me years ago on a rather liberal RC forum. Attending SSPX and FSSP parishes made me a boogie man of sorts to them.

Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

Sounds like another "kill ban" or whatever terminology is used for it now. They ban the person, delete their account but their posts stay up to prevent database chaos. The name will usually appear as some sort of guest/unregistered account.

In the immortal words of John Kruger, "You've been erased!"

That happened to me years ago on a rather liberal RC forum. Attending SSPX and FSSP parishes made me a boogie man of sorts to them.

I was banned for life from the Byzantine Forum about 4 years ago, but my posts are still there and no such indication of my "status" is evident in my profile or anything else, as far as I know. But then, that was then. Now people posting even the most egregiously offensive (sorry, "uncharitable") things just get warnings or then 30-day timeouts and a chance to apologize, suck the owner's toes, or whatever.

I guess it doesn't look as bad if the board owner can make it look like people just stopped posting of their own volition.

So, I am now a bannee, officially cast into the darkness, welcome here and at ByzCath, but never again to darken the portals of Karl Keating's internet fora.

*Neil,

You have my sympathy, and I feel sorry also for the members of Catholic Answers Forum who will not benefit any longer from your always charitable and accurately informative answers. CAF has lost a living treasure by banning you. They are ridding themselves of their best contributors and choosing to encourage some very ill-informed types whose contributions are often shameful and wildly inaccurate.

Yeshua.... I see that he has resigned. So another informed and passionate Maronite bites the dust. It is in solidarity with what you wrote on CAF. Someone ought to write to him and tell him of your banning.

I am sick to my stomach over what I read there, especially the inventiveness of some of the current posters.

They keep imagineering the facts to fit whatever they want people to think. Now without Irish Melkite there is not much hope for corrections. New Christians and other curiosity seekers will waltz in and be like deer in headlights.

Interestingly, a major tactic employed now (by some posters) is to impugn the motives of what one has to say, not address the facts as they stand. Typically "why do you come here and post that?" rather than address it head on.

I hate to leave like that, but it sickens me now. It should sicken everyone, including by now even the moderator.

Michael

Logged

"Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living" Jaroslav Pelikan

I guess it doesn't look as bad if the board owner can make it look like people just stopped posting of their own volition.

Quote from: the slave

BUT there is no label now attached to his name - so is he banned as he was told ?

Has he in fact been treated as shamefully as Fr Ambrose and the others who were banned , and the label was not used so that unsuspecting folk would not realise that they had gone on permanent gardening leave ?

Rich and Anhelyna,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Whether one liked or loathed his opinions, my dear friend Father Ambrose, with close to 20K posts, was a high visibility poster and the obvious leader in the EO community there - to publicly display a banned label under his nick while delighting some would invariably give pause to others (including non-Othodox) who might well wonder how and why anyone with that many posts got banned. And while none of the rest of those banned without being titled even approached those statistics, many would find it curious to see so many Orthodox bannees. Labeling EC bannees was less problematic, given that few were volume posters. And, while my numbers weren't especially high, that my name is attached to quite a few "stickies", as Anhelyna referenced, presents its own potential for embarrassment.

My nick is now re-titled "Senior Member" or whatever, no longer giving any indication of my banned status - which I assure you continues to be the case, but my profile now indicates that there is "no contact information" available for me.

As well as my brother yeshua, whose parting comments were referenced by Father, I just read a parting message over there by my good friend, Miichael. Both represent major losses to that site; their contributions were thought-provoking, informative, and always charitable. It will be interesting to see whether there is a reaction to their closing statements - folks have been known to find themselves "resigned" as a consequence of such remarks.

God bless Isa and Matt/mgy who continue the good fight, at least for the moment, along with jimmy, rony, Ghosty, Alexius, and a few others - including bpbasilphx.

On the other side, E&W appears to have retired from the fray - not a post in EC in a week - curious, it's almost as if he had satisfied an agenda and achieved a goal. The latinized EC contingent, Aramis, A Simple Sinner, jj, and dvdjs are going strong and I see that Fireman Frank has leapt back in as well. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it - little good, I suspect.

Many years,

Neil

« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 03:05:01 AM by Irish Melkite »

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

I will refrain from participating here at CA and will weather the storm with my Eastern brethern...

james

That might hit home with some folk

Logged

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

I think I am done over there as well. I haven't posted for a while because it has lost all interest to me. Now that Neil is banned and yeshua and Michael have left there is very little that I would like to see. Rony and Laka and Ghosty are the only ones lleft who have anything interesting to say.

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

Gal 5:26 Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.

1Ti 4:16 Give attention to yourself and to the doctrine; continue in them, for doing this, you will both deliver yourself and those hearing you.

Rom 3:31 Then is the Law annulled through faith? Let it not be! But we establish Law.

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful to me, but not all things profit. All things are lawful to me, but I will not be ruled by any.

1Co 10:23 All things are lawful to me, but not all things profit. All things are lawful to me, but not all things build up.

1Co 12:4 And there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit; 1Co 12:5 and there are differences of ministries, yet the same Lord. 1Co 12:6 And there are differences of workings, but the same God is working all things in all. 1Co 12:7 And to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.

1Co 12:12 Even as the body is one, and has many members, but all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

1Co 12:25 that there not be division in the body, but that the members might have the same care for one another. 1Co 12:26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it. If one member is glorified, all the members rejoice with it.

Gal 5:12 O that the ones causing you to doubt will sever themselves.

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Lev. 19:18 Gal 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you are not consumed by one another.

Heb 4:2 For, indeed, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also; but the Word did not profit those hearing it, not having been mixed with faith in the ones who heard.

Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;

Heb 4:16 Therefore, let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and we may find grace for timely help.

Heb 12:7 If you endure discipline, God is dealing with you as with sons; for who is the son whom a father does not discipline?

Heb 12:14 Eagerly pursue peace and holiness with all, without which no one will see the Lord, Heb 12:15 watching diligently that not any lack from the grace of God, that "no root of bitterness growing up" may crowd "in on you", and through this many be defiled; Deut. 29:18

1Ti 4:16 Give attention to yourself and to the doctrine; continue in them, for doing this, you will both deliver yourself and those hearing you.

Tit 3:9 But keep back from foolish questionings and genealogies and arguments and quarrels of law, for they are unprofitable and vain.

On the other side, E&W appears to have retired from the fray - not a post in EC in a week - curious, it's almost as if he had satisfied an agenda and achieved a goal. The latinized EC contingent, Aramis, A Simple Sinner, jj, and dvdjs are going strong and I see that Fireman Frank has leapt back in as well. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it - little good, I suspect.

Dear Neil,

While not wanting to get into a discussion here of individual posters from another message board, I'd like to just say that having known one of them online for many years, DVDJS, I would not think of him as latinized whatsoever. One may hesitate to blame "Rome" and the Latin Church for all of our problems and still have a wonderful understanding (from actual experience rather than just books) and appreciation of the Byzantine Tradition, Ruthenian and otherwise, which he does.

I think within "traditional(ist)" Byzantine Catholicism one can have genuine variant perspectives on theological and ecclesiological issues without having to attach stigma to the other person's perspective with the negative-baggage label "latinized".

Speaking for myself, for example, when I was most active in the American-Ruthenian Church, during my college years as student leader of a Byzantine Catholic campus ministry organization, most of the clergy and fellow students I interacted with thought of me as some kind of "Orthodoxizer". I certainly promoted awareness of the shared tradition we have with the Orthodox Church and of important events in the life of that Church alongside our own. (I even put in our bulletins that when the Orthodox campus group was having festal vespers that our students should attend!) And my personal perspective was that the Pittsburgh Metropolia of the time (early 1990s) could not "de-latinize" itself quickly enough.

But many(!) years down the road, I've moderated my positions on many things that years ago would have earned me such a reputation as an "orthodoxizer". For example, I am not in favor of the Pittsburgh Metropolia's latest liturgical revision where we were told that during the anaphora "the proper liturgical posture is to stand". I am fine with it on Sundays and during the Paschal season, and even in general should one be in a temple without pews (or at least in an open space of the temple), but honestly speaking we generally don't have such temples and I don't see that a movement to change that will be anything but destructive. What I oppose is being told that a liturgical posture that we share with our co-religionists (and by that I mean Greek Catholics), throughout the territories where our particular Church originated, is wrong. On cultural and historical grounds it is legitimate; that it is a posture also generally shared with Roman Catholics (and Protestants!), at least in our ancestral cultural/geographic milieu is not necessarily to say that it is contrary to our Rite and our spirituality. Does that make me "latinized"?

I'm not trying to argue about this with you; I'm merely suggesting that you may have applied such a label too hastily in at least one case. (Frankly, I'm not sure what about "Aramis" he's posted that's so objectionable either, except that he is unfortunately misinformed about many things, none of which I would chalk up to "latinization".)

While not wanting to get into a discussion here of individual posters from another message board, I'd like to just say that having known one of them online for many years, DVDJS, I would not think of him as latinized whatsoever. One may hesitate to blame "Rome" and the Latin Church for all of our problems and still have a wonderful understanding (from actual experience rather than just books) and appreciation of the Byzantine Tradition, Ruthenian and otherwise, which he does.

Rich,

You're correct - I tossed DVDJS' name too quickly into that list, probably because of a particular post of his (which one escapes me at the moment). Like you, I've known him online for a number of years and, while not always in agreement with him on every issue, it really was unfair of me to label him as "latinized".

(Frankly, I'm not sure what about "Aramis" he's posted that's so objectionable either, except that he is unfortunately misinformed about many things, none of which I would chalk up to "latinization".)

I agree that the biggest issue with Aramis is the misinformation that he dispenses. He is more than willing to put forth authoritative opinions on matters regarding which it's clear that he has little real knowledge and many of which are, to my eye, colored by the perspective of one who is relatively new to the East and whose knowledge/opinions were first formed in a Latin thought process and have not yet been fully developed or thought through in his more recently found Eastern sprituality. It is different than latinization (which may have become a too convenient label) but it gives leverage/sustenance to those who are latinized. Having tried unsuccessfully on several occasions to encourage a more restrained expression than broadly attributing his limited experience to all persons Eastern, I've wearied of the effort.

I think within "traditional(ist)" Byzantine Catholicism one can have genuine variant perspectives on theological and ecclesiological issues without having to attach stigma to the other person's perspective with the negative-baggage label "latinized".

Thank you, my friend, for your thoughtful and wise observations on the issue.

Many years,

Neil

« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 03:11:54 AM by Irish Melkite »

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

I appreciate the solidarity and support of both my long-time friends, Michael and James, and those whom I've not known anywhere near as long but have come to truly appreciate, yeshua and jimmy. Truthfully, it was never my intent to be banned, although I knew it was a risk that I was taking. Another good friend has expressed to me, in PM, that he is torn between the desire to be supportive to all of us who have been unceremoniously shown the door and his concern that each one who leaves contributes to a crisis-level vacuum of information at CAF for those posters who legitimately gravitate there seeking information on our Churches, Eastern and Oriental, Catholic and Orthodox.

His concern is valid and is the one reason why I neither could nor would encourage others to cease posting there - unless and until it becomes a matter of conscience for you. It's size alone and the resources behind it assure that CAF will survive - probably for a long while to come. And the EC forum will continue to exist, a poor shell of what it once was in the eyes of those of us who saw it flourish, but that fact will be lost on those who come afterward. They would have to search high and low to discover that there were people there previously - Catholic and Orthodox - who fostered an environment that encouraged debate, albeit hot at times, but who also cooperated to dispense incredible amounts of factual information on theology, spirituality, praxis, iconography, hagiography, culture, and history - so much of it bridging ecclesial lines. So, they'll ask their questions and receive answers, sometimes accurate but, as or more often, incomplete or ill-informed and certainly lacking much of the depth of knowledge that so pervaded that place a couple short months ago. As someone remarked earlier, it wasn't long before the axe fell that Joe posted to just such a thread (a straight-out, non-polemical query) praising the quality of the responses and information given. Very honestly, outside of those fora (here, ByzCath, and a couple others) that are strictly Eastern in their focus, there isn't an on-line site that could muster the quality and diversity of posters that formerly populated the Eastern Christianity Forum at CAF. I know that it certainly exceeded whatever expectations that I saw for it when it was first elevated from a subforum within the Non-Catholic Religions Forum.

In the end, for me, it had reached the point at which continued posting was indeed a matter of conscience because, as I said in what looked to be my swan song (it was actually intended to be a prelude, as I was involved in a couple of info threads that I wanted to wrap up prior to departing), the unhindered attacks on the "C"atholicity of my own Church - by other Catholics - had reached a level such that it was no longer tenable. That the Melkites are a curious breed is not news to anyone. We were before Sayednha Elias presented the so-called Zoghby Initiative and we continue to be these many years later. Most of us are not oblivious to the fact that both Rome and the Phanar look at us as if we are truly some sort of hybrid, with which neither is certain that it can successfully mate - not knowing how the chromosomes would play out in the offspring. We are what we are - which is Melkite and is Catholic and yet have a decidedly Orthodox tenor about us. We are the original identity crisis, I suppose. Say that; we won't deny it or even dispute it. But, don't tell us that we are not Catholic when Rome accepts us as such, foibles and all. (Someone, perhaps my brother, Michael, posted an extraordinarily accurate description and analysis of us - I don't have the quote at hand.)

My point? Do what you individually must do and expect to be supported by the rest of us, regardless of which choice you make. Those of us who are no longer able to post there are most appreciative of your affection for us but will understand if you think that continuing to post there is in the best interests of your God, your Church, or Eastern and Oriental Christianity (and, in truth, the efforts that have been made by those of each Church to assure that their respective counterparts are not misrepresented is an incredible testament to the collegiality and respect for one another that CAF would have had everyone believe to be non-existent in justifying its closure of the former forum).

Many years,

Neil

« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 04:30:43 AM by Irish Melkite »

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch