Ñāṇa wrote:Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) are still considered necessary.

Which as I understand it come at the moment of awakening (maggaphala).

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

What about all the teachings in Patisambhidamagga that at stream entry path (and higher paths as well) various factors occur including what you would call Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna and vipassanā?

360. At the moment of the stream-entry path: Right view in the sense of seeing is then arrived at, right thought in the sense of directing onto is then arrived at, right speaking in the sense of embracing ... , right acting in the sense of originating ... , [74] right living in the sense of cleansing..., right effort in the sense of exerting..., right mindfulness in the sense of establishing ..., right concentration in the sense of non-distraction is then arrived at;

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Alex123 wrote:What about all the teachings in Patisambhidamagga that at stream entry path (and higher paths as well) various factors occur including what you would call Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna and vipassanā?

The possibility of people reaching arya states, without jhana doesn't mean that all people can do that. The universal path, i.e., the noble 8fold path, includes jhana.

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' (Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

Modus.Ponens wrote:The possibility of people reaching arya states, without jhana doesn't mean that all people can do that. The universal path, i.e., the noble 8fold path, includes jhana.

At the maggaphala moment there is proper jhāna, vipassanā and other factors occurring.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

For anyone interested in the jhāna related pericopes found in the suttas, here is what the commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta has to offer for the following passage pertaining to the first jhāna:

He drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates this very body with the joy and pleasure born of seclusion so that there is no part of his whole body that is not permeated by joy and pleasure born of seclusion.

The commentary explains:

This very body: this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. He drenches: he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. Steeps: to flow all over. Fills: like filling a bellows with air. Permeates: to touch all over.

His whole body: in this monk's body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [form] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.

This is interesting. Does this suggest that 5 sense consciousness still function in Jhāna, but that they do not disturb the person in Jhāna?

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Alex123 wrote:Does this suggest that 5 sense consciousness still function in Jhāna, but that they do not disturb the person in Jhāna?

Well, the five sense faculties still function, but since the object-support of jhāna is a mental representation, it's accurate to say that the functioning consciousness is mental consciousness. As MN 38 Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta informs us, "Consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises."

Attending to a mental representation (nimitta) in jhāna doesn't require that all the five senses are totally shut down. There is a difference between attending to a mental representation via mental consciousness, and the formless attainments wherein the mind is totally isolated from the five sense faculties. In commentarial terms, attending exclusively to a cognitive representation already occurs at the stage of access samādhi. Thus, the engagement is exclusively that of the recognition of the counterpart representation via mental consciousness. The difference between access samādhi and and the first jhāna is the degree of stability of the jhāna factors. The difference between the first jhāna and the formless attainments is indicated in both the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga when they discuss the formless attainments and mention Aḷāra Kālāma not seeing or hearing the five-hundred carts passing by when abiding in a formless attainment.

Ñāṇa wrote:For anyone interested in the jhāna related pericopes found in the suttas, here is what the commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta has to offer for the following passage pertaining to the first jhāna:

He drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates this very body with the joy and pleasure born of seclusion so that there is no part of his whole body that is not permeated by joy and pleasure born of seclusion.

The commentary explains:

This very body: this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. He drenches: he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. Steeps: to flow all over. Fills: like filling a bellows with air. Permeates: to touch all over.

His whole body: in this monk's body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [form] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.

One wonders what the Commentators had in mind with the karajakāya/body born of action. Were they thinking of just the physical body, or the karajakāya in AN 10.5.1.9? There, the discussion is on kamma performed by the karajakāya being neutralised by the brahmaviharas. It looks like karajakāya in AN 10.5.1.9 is not limited to the physical body, but the kāyā/collections of body, speech and mind. That sutta discusses karajakāyena, the instrumental plural of karajakāya.

I wonder too why the Commentators did not take a position on whether abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati (drenches, steeps, fills, permeates) involves cognising and feeling that Jhanic pleasure with the skin. But then again, they would have been constrained by the bar in MN 43 against the body feeling and being conscious of otherworldy pleasure.

Sylvester wrote:Are you parsing karajakāya as a dvanda compound into body + kamma?

No. It's just, as the Kamma sutta indicates, the body can be seen as the old kamma, so it is a product of kamma, born from actions (kamma).

If I may trouble you, what do you think about the verbs abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati in the Jhana pericope? Are they under the control of the agent?

Yes, "he drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates".

On the other hand, it can be described as "In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."

Sylvester wrote:Are you parsing karajakāya as a dvanda compound into body + kamma?

No. It's just, as the Kamma sutta indicates, the body can be seen as the old kamma, so it is a product of kamma, born from actions (kamma).

I agree. This still leaves me wondering which of the 3 karajakāyā was meant by the Commentary to DN 2 in relation to the kāya pericopes. Body, speech or just mind?

If I may trouble you, what do you think about the verbs abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati in the jhāna pericope? Are they under the control of the agent?

Yes, "he drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates".

I can also agree with this (but see below). However, if these verbs are forms of sañcetanā or saṅkhāra, DN 9 would not allow them to exist within any of the Jhanic attainments. DN 9 is quite strict in excluding intention/volition from the jhānas.

Perhaps the resolution would be to resort to your alternative explanation, such that they become "automatic" inclinations. I think that seems to be the explanation favoured also by the Vimuttimagga. To that extent, I think the Commentarial explanation of each of the 4 verbs as having specific and distinct meanings may stem from the Abhidhammic method and this in fact obscures the nature of the verbs. Looking at the Pali, the 4 verbs seem to be synonyms arranged according to the waxing syllable principle.

How about the other 5 old kamma in the Kamma Sutta, or perhaps the other 2 karajakāyā in the Karajakāya Sutta, AN 10.5.1.9?

The Commentary is uncharacteristically vague on this point, methinks. I wonder why the physical body might have been understood as being saturated with pītisukha born of seclusion, since these states are not phoṭṭhabba and, therefore cannot possibly make contact with kāya.