No, same mistake again. Just a car. A fucking car that gets you from A to B faster than a bus. Nothing fancy.

O wise one, show me the error in my ways... /sarcasm

The point remains, (most) addons are only useful when you get the majority of your information from the UI, so you spend comparable amounts of time watching the UI and the game field. Some addons are fine, if they just allow you to customize the appearance while retaining the exact same amount of information. As soon as you start getting more information from a customized UI than you get without, then you're starting to play the UI and not the game. It is up to the developer to ensure that either that's not necessary (and if it's not necessary, then it's not possible) or it's necessary, possible, and ideally standard (ie, the way WoW's raid frames have been improved and the addition to threat meters built into the default UI). If it's not standard, but it is possible, then you can either develop around the idea of having it and make those who don't have it have to work harder, or around not having it and make it incredibly simple for those who do have it.

Nothing confusing if you would realize that generalization is a logical fallacy.
Just because you don't need a car, doesn't mean no one needs a car.

Originally Posted by rhandric

The point remains, (most) addons are only useful when you get the majority of your information from the UI, so you spend comparable amounts of time watching the UI and the game field.

Every piece of information is from UI. Those circles/sectors on the ground showing the aoe and time left (graphically) for you to run away? That's UI. It's not different from a text message with a timer that says "RUN AWAY! YOU HAVE 5 SECONDS!". Various visual effects that show active abilities or combo starters - that's UI too. It's just a different style of UI. More of AR kind. Everything you do in GW2 is UI based. You are playing UI all the time.

Nothing confusing if you would realize that generalization is a logical fallacy.
Just because you don't need a car, doesn't mean no one needs a car.

Every piece of information is from UI. Those circles/sectors on the ground showing the aoe and time left (graphically) for you to run away? That's UI. It's not different from a text message with a timer that says "RUN AWAY! YOU HAVE 5 SECONDS!". Various visual effects that show active abilities or combo starters - that's UI too. It's just a different style of UI. More of AR kind. Everything you do in GW2 is UI based. You are playing UI all the time.

Uhh..the circles are not from the UI. That's like saying my banner that I throw down to buff my team and myself is also "The UI". Which it most certainly is not.

The UI consists of your skill bar, health bubble, dodge meter, mini-map, chat log, menu on the top left and your quest log. At least that's how I look at it and from what I've seen that's how the majority of the people here look at it. Majority rules imo.

Everything else is not the UI, it's the game, the world, the environment and the task at hand.

They have to have some minor thing to aware the player of incoming damage or else everyone would be getting hit by AOE all the time. To create proper boss fights you need some kind of awareness, no matter how miniscule it is. You look for circles on the ground for incoming AOE, you listen to sounds from the enemy for incoming buffs/debuffs or attacks and you watch the enemy's movement's so you know when to dodge. That's where "play the game, not the UI" comes from.

You can be really anal and call it all the UI, but know that you're a minority in thinking this way and Anet does not think of it this way.

Nothing confusing if you would realize that generalization is a logical fallacy.
Just because you don't need a car, doesn't mean no one needs a car.

Every piece of information is from UI. Those circles/sectors on the ground showing the aoe and time left (graphically) for you to run away? That's UI. It's not different from a text message with a timer that says "RUN AWAY! YOU HAVE 5 SECONDS!". Various visual effects that show active abilities or combo starters - that's UI too. It's just a different style of UI. More of AR kind. Everything you do in GW2 is UI based. You are playing UI all the time.

Ok now you're going to tell me that when I see a fireball coming my way, or a mob telegraphs a move, that's the UI. No, that's the game field, as is everything you mentioned. Yes, the circles on the ground are borderline, I'll agree with that. Maybe you'd prefer we use the term HUD instead of UI, but for all intents and purposes it's the same thing. Otherwise, we might as well go back to MUDs, so then at least you can be right.

Let's put it another way. There's this little technique used in literature called show, don't tell (or showing vs telling). UI/HUD is telling. The game field is showing. Showing is (almost) always better than telling, and that's what GW2 goes for.

Let's put it another way. There's this little technique used in literature called show, don't tell (or showing vs telling). UI/HUD is telling. The game field is showing. Showing is (almost) always better than telling, and that's what GW2 goes for.

You are entering subjective area. You prefer "showing", others prefer "telling". Both parties get the same information. Just in different media.

Nothing confusing if you would realize that generalization is a logical fallacy.
Just because you don't need a car, doesn't mean no one needs a car.

The other way is a logical fallacy too. Just because SOMEONE needs a car doesn't mean EVERYONE needs a car.

The number of people who truly need a car is remarkably small. Just like the number of people who might truly need an addon is remarkably small (for example, someone who is colorblind might need an addon to change the color of UI elements).

Cars are a luxury everyone thinks they need, addons are a luxury everyone thinks they need. So at least the comparison is a good one.

The only addon I ever miss is the damage meter. I'm very competitive when it comes to damage and healing, and when I'm not able to compete with other people it takes a lot of fun out of a game. I don't know if GW2 will have a built in meter, or a scoreboard at the end of battlegrounds because I haven't been fortunate enough to make it into beta, but I'm holding out hope that they might.

in any self respecting raiding guild if your dps is low "running out of the fire" is not an excuse, because you can "run out of fire" and still pull world ranking numbers. no healer uses healbot anymore lol. also you dont need dbm anymore because of blizzards own announcements and everything is pretty damn obvious :') ... "Deathwing is about to roll"

The world could be a better place if everyone have a elite raiding guild and no one have to use LFD / LFR. Sadly not everyone is as privilege as you.

The only addon I ever miss is the damage meter. I'm very competitive when it comes to damage and healing, and when I'm not able to compete with other people it takes a lot of fun out of a game. I don't know if GW2 will have a built in meter, or a scoreboard at the end of battlegrounds because I haven't been fortunate enough to make it into beta, but I'm holding out hope that they might.

While I agree that knowing my own DPS is something I love to have because it will let me know if I did better or worse on a certain fight, in GW2 I don't see it being worth a damn.

If you're not a complete noob you will be dodging and avoiding stuff constantly in fights so DPS meters are kind of a moot point.

Nothing confusing if you would realize that generalization is a logical fallacy.
Just because you don't need a car, doesn't mean no one needs a car.

You're right but it isn't going to help your argument. For instance, I would bet that most of the people reading this don't 'need' a car. They could take public transportation, ride a bike, etc. They might want a car because it helps them get to and from work easier but they could probably get to work without one. In contrast, I need a car because I am an outside salesman and my job requires me to drive from place to place all day long calling on customers. I literally cannot do my job without one and had I told my employer when I interviewed that I did not have a vehicle, I'm pretty sure that would have been the end of my interview. That's the difference between wants and needs.

It's more accurate to liken addons to, say, wireless Bluetooth access to your cell phone while driving, or having a Smartphone with internet access instead of a normal cell phone.

Sure, nobody "needs" those things, but they make life more convenient.

---------- Post added 2012-08-07 at 02:20 PM ----------

Originally Posted by iCandy

While I agree that knowing my own DPS is something I love to have because it will let me know if I did better or worse on a certain fight, in GW2 I don't see it being worth a damn.

It's not just about dps. There's tons of other factors: number of successful interrupts, CC applied, damage taken, healing done, healing taken, damage dodged, and even more important than all of that what actually caused those numbers. If I dodge a handful of things in a fight, and then end up dying anyways, a combat meter is going to be useful in showing me what I dodged, and what I took damage from, and whether or not I got buffs like Protection/Regen, and other things just like that. It allows me to figure out the detailed specifics of where I can do better.

It's not about e-peen, it's about improving your performance to be the best that you can. Even when you succeed, you can do that, and figure out "Okay, next time I do this fight, can I do it better? Can I do it without taking any damage? Can I do it with this build, or is the fight too mobile?

And also: I've said it a million times, but DPS is not unimportant, just because you don't stand still to pewpew. The majority of fights in WoW do not allow you to stand still and mindlessly pewpew. Take a look at Hagara, Staghelm for ranged, Yor'sahj, Shannox, or Heroic Conclave (from T11), and even many others from back in Wrath. Most of them require you to target change constantly, dodge spell effects, and go through periods of the fight where you can't DPS at all. Only idiots place importance on how much DPS is done. Serious, hardcore raiders never cared about how much DPS you did beyond making sure you did enough to finish off the fight in a reasonable amount of time, and making sure you're doing a reasonable amount for your spec to begin with (if you're capable of 30k DPS and you're only doing 10k, not even matching the tank, something is wrong) - whether that be a blatant hard-coded enrage timer, or your healer's mana pool, or even simply (as is the case in GW2) your own HP bar.

Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-08-07 at 07:25 PM.

I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

And some of us turn off the phone, crank out the throttle and enjoy the ride itself.
Your "addons" of cellphones and hands free, detract from the experience.

Thats GW2, the journey is important in and of itself.

Not necessarily. That's an entirely subjective interpretation. Consider, for instance, that an interface between your car's radio and your iPod would allow you to crank out your favorite tunes instead of just whatever's on the radio. (I'm pretty sure there are such interfaces, I just don't know if there's a word for them)

That, also, is an addon.

I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

No game needs it, it adds an aditional feature...not understood why people don't like addons, it gives close to no advantage over people who don't use it. :P

wow needs addons or you cant perform properly, all that i would say would maybe be ok is for a personal dmg meter to see how your doing, in wow if you didnt have dbm or an addon to manage your dots for example you wouldnt be as effective and it would be near impossible to do any HC mode encounters especially ragnaros pre nerf.

due to how guilds wars works it doesnt have a real need for any addons.

This is entirely untrue. You're aware that encounters like Heroic Ragnator pre-nerf were not even properly set up in DBM to begin with, and so DBM was entirely unreliable, and the top players just had to figure it out the hard way?

How do you think people even create the timers and warnings in DBM? By being the first guys there and figuring out how to do the fight! Figuring what's dangerous and NEEDS warnings!

Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-08-07 at 09:00 PM.

I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

Comparing AR circles to physical banner is ridiculous, and I hope you know it.

Originally Posted by iCandy

Either way. The red circles are about as needed as needed can get. Like I said, if they weren't there then everyone would get hit by every AOE every time it's cast.

No they are not needed. haha, now I'm gonna play that card. You should watch what monster does, so if he starts moving in "aoe in 5 seconds" way - you should run away. Play the game not red circles.

Originally Posted by iCandy

Lets not forget the developers of the game disagree with you.

Oh, how cute. Authority card. I really wanna see a quote of them saying that those circles are not part of the UI. Please, do provide. I wanna see who says that bullshit.

Originally Posted by rhandric

in GW2, showing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> telling.

And what does that mean? Telling is east of Showing? OR are you implying showing is way better than telling? Well that's your preference. Or showing is implemented way better than telling in GW2? True - as there's almost no telling apart from scrolling combat text. But that's there add-ons may come in. So the other preference would be served too.

Originally Posted by Osprey39

You're right but it isn't going to help your argument. For instance, I would bet that most of the people reading this don't 'need' a car. They could take public transportation, ride a bike, etc. They might want a car because it helps them get to and from work easier but they could probably get to work without one. In contrast, I need a car because I am an outside salesman and my job requires me to drive from place to place all day long calling on customers. I literally cannot do my job without one and had I told my employer when I interviewed that I did not have a vehicle, I'm pretty sure that would have been the end of my interview. That's the difference between wants and needs.

Now imagine that there's only one road and road owner restricts access for private cars and says "Be a passenger not a driver".