What is required for strong, toned and sculpted abs? Is it all about diet and cardio? I am hearing that crunches alone is not the answer; how much work is required to whittle a 30-inch waist down to a 24 or 26-inch waist?

Mimi6

Lots of questions about training abs and developing the elusive six-pack. Lots of different approaches, and lots of ideas out there. Let's hear them!

I find that the ability to see my abs is related more to DIET (incl cardio of course ) than it is to specifically training the ab muscles, although training the abs is important for them to look toned when you are lean enough to display them.

When it comes to abs, I try to train them similar to other muscle groups, although I tend to hit them more than once or twice a week b/c they recover rather quickly. I try to train abs on any day they are not sore.I rely primarily on diet and cardio to show my abs better. You can do 1000000 sit ups every day, but until you are lean enough, you will not see your abs.

I do not train my obliques any more AT ALL. I used to train the hell out of them, and I had big obliques, which made my waist appear larger. NO side bends, NO twisting exercises at all....Once I stopped training my obliques, my waist shrunk by about 2 inches!

I find that you get enough oblique training in just from general training and training your abs. Remember that you also hit your abs and all of your core/stabilizer muscles when you train things like your back (lat pulldowns, for ex) and triceps (cable tricep pulls, for example) and when you train your lower body with free-form exercises like squats and walking lunges.

When I train abs, I usually stick to the basics, and I try to do 3 sets of 3 exercises:---crunches and/or sit ups on the incline---hanging leg lifts---Sometimes I use the crunch machine, although I am unclear whether or not training abs with weights is the way to go. Some people say you don't need anything more than your body weight.---I also like those cable pull-downs where you kneel on the ground and pull using a close-grip bar. I have no idea what they are really called, but I like them.

I have very shallow abs, meaning that even when I get really lean and you can see all of my abs, they are not deep ravioli-type abs, as much as I would like for them to be.

I have always wondered....Is deep versus shallow abs determined by genetics? Can I get deep ravioli abs by training them more, or harder, or differently? Or will I always have shallow abs?

When it comes to abs, do you rely on diet more than training?How do you train your abs? What are your favorite exercises?Weighted exercises versus body weight only? Do you train your obliques?

I am always amazed at the number of "big" women who are doing side bends and using the oblique machines. But they don't look at is building muscle = waist looking bigger. And these women have no waist to speak of!

I like to do rope pulldowns, I will do those to the front and to each side, I like to use a weight that I am working, but not so heavy that I will build them, especially to the side. Incline & Reverse sit ups, and when I am "in shape" hanging leg raises. I usually hit them 2x a week.

Yep, I train abs pretty basic...pretty much like you do...no oblique training, this is a big mistake for me, and no weighted exercises period...otherwise my stomach starts sticking out past my chest. I do like the way my abs look though if I use weighted exercises...this does help with that "ravioli" look you're talking about, but not at the expense of what some would call a GH gut. For that reason, as much as I like Rope crunches I do not do them anymore. No big deal though, it seems if you give it time and as you get stronger with your regular lifts, the abs start to get that deeper bigger look. For example, I hate training abs anymore after heavy shoulder day. My abs are always very sore after a few sets of heavy presses and if I do abs after that, they start cramping up.

Yep, I train abs pretty basic...pretty much like you do...no oblique training, this is a big mistake for me, and no weighted exercises period...otherwise my stomach starts sticking out past my chest. I do like the way my abs look though if I use weighted exercises...this does help with that "ravioli" look you're talking about, but not at the expense of what some would call a GH gut. For that reason, as much as I like Rope crunches I do not do them anymore. No big deal though, it seems if you give it time and as you get stronger with your regular lifts, the abs start to get that deeper bigger look. For example, I hate training abs anymore after heavy shoulder day. My abs are always very sore after a few sets of heavy presses and if I do abs after that, they start cramping up.

Weighted ab exercises versus body weight only is an ongoing debate, and I have no idea which side of it I'm on yet.

If you do body weight only ab exercises, what else is there other than crunches and leglifts?

I like to do sit-ups on a pretty steep incline bench, like 60 degrees or so. I have heard that this is bad for your back, but I am not so sure. Is there any truth to that? Seems like it would help strengthen your entire torso including your lower back.

Weighted ab exercises versus body weight only is an ongoing debate, and I have no idea which side of it I'm on yet.

If you do body weight only ab exercises, what else is there other than crunches and leglifts?

I like to do sit-ups on a pretty steep incline bench, like 60 degrees or so. I have heard that this is bad for your back, but I am not so sure. Is there any truth to that? Seems like it would help strengthen your entire torso including your lower back.

Weighted exercises may very well be good for some people...but people like myself who are naturally blocky in the middle already, this seems to make that worse...especially in the oblique.

As for crunches on an incline, I'd say this is fine as long as you're not rounding your back and pulling on your neck...I'd say this is more then likely a good exercise, although I don't do it too much any more. About all I do for abs are basic crunches on the floor, and every now and then on a ball if I'm feeling lazy. After that, either hanging leg raises on a pull-up bar, or the ones where you're on your back on an incline raising your legs up, or sitting on the end of a bench legs in and out.

One thing I've noticed about abs (first off, my abs are nothing spectacular, just wanted to clarify) if I slack on training them, then my deads, military and squats suffer...especially my squats. If my abs are not as strong, on squats my midsection will start to give way before my legs on heavy sets...they can't support the weight. So that should always be considered when thinking about abs IMO. Even so, I still hate training abs, it's boring IMO.

One thing I've noticed about abs (first off, my abs are nothing spectacular, just wanted to clarify) if I slack on training them, then my deads, military and squats suffer...especially my squats. If my abs are not as strong, on squats my midsection will start to give way before my legs on heavy sets...they can't support the weight. So that should always be considered when thinking about abs IMO. Even so, I still hate training abs, it's boring IMO.

I agree...strong abs also help with stuff that requires balance like walking lunges. And they are totally boring to work. Whenever I say I am gonna work them at home b/c I hate spending time in the gym on stuff I don't necessarily have to do at the gym, I usually don't. So then I work them at the gym and I always end up using weights. lol

I naturally have a wider waist, so I never do any type of side bends, and I also try to avoid weighted ab exercises. I mainly do different variations of leg raises (stright leg, bent leg, coming down only to an L, V-ups, etc-). The gymnastics training that I do for my fitness routine also incorporates a lot of core strength. Because I don't train them with weights, I usually try to hit abs after every workout, and I do a lot of supersets for them. I also recently incorporated a standing twist (with a stick behind my arms....and exercise that really doesn't look like it does much), and it has actually helped a lot to bring my waist in.

Alot of good stuff in the previous posts! I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents worth on the subject. How your abs look has to do with genetics as well as how you train them. Have you noticed some people have the perfect 6-pack, and others have offset abs? That has to do with genetics. The thicknesss " ravioli vs lasagna" has to do with genetics and how you train them. When first starting out, to get the thickness, you have to train hard and when strong enough, move to weighted exercises. Once you have achieved the thickness, then it's a piece of cake to maintain. All that requires is cardio and proper diet to stay lean enough to show off your washboard belly. Many women don't want to achieve the thick washboard abs of the bodybuilder, so if this is the case with you, don't do weighted exercises, never work the obliques. Do your crunches on a ball, and to work lowers, "Diaper Lifts" or Heel Punches are best if done correctly. Simply try to touch your heels to the ceiling while bringing your hips towards your ribs. 3 sets of 12 is usually enough to really feel a burn...

Alot of good stuff in the previous posts! I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents worth on the subject. How your abs look has to do with genetics as well as how you train them. Have you noticed some people have the perfect 6-pack, and others have offset abs? That has to do with genetics. The thicknesss " ravioli vs lasagna" has to do with genetics and how you train them. When first starting out, to get the thickness, you have to train hard and when strong enough, move to weighted exercises. Once you have achieved the thickness, then it's a piece of cake to maintain. All that requires is cardio and proper diet to stay lean enough to show off your washboard belly. Many women don't want to achieve the thick washboard abs of the bodybuilder, so if this is the case with you, don't do weighted exercises, never work the obliques. Do your crunches on a ball, and to work lowers, "Diaper Lifts" or Heel Punches are best if done correctly. Simply try to touch your heels to the ceiling while bringing your hips towards your ribs. 3 sets of 12 is usually enough to really feel a burn...

My abs are totally offset, and they are shallow. I have noticed that most people who have offset abs also have shallow abs, i.e., not alot of depth to the muscle. Do you think that offset abs can be built up and eventually have the thickness of the 6-pack raviolis? I have been training abs for years and years, and mine don't seem to be any deeper than they ever have been.

My abs are totally offset, and they are shallow. I have noticed that most people who have offset abs also have shallow abs, i.e., not alot of depth to the muscle. Do you think that offset abs can be built up and eventually have the thickness of the 6-pack raviolis? I have been training abs for years and years, and mine don't seem to be any deeper than they ever have been.

I have seen some beautiful sets of off-set abs, usually in males though. They have the advantage of testosterone, which makes building and maintaining much easier. Try doing weighted crunches, holding a weight to your chest and for the diaper lifts put a weight between your knees or ankles. Be careful to keep a good grip on it though! PM me if you need more info. I'll be very glad to help!

I have seen some beautiful sets of off-set abs, usually in males though. They have the advantage of testosterone, which makes building and maintaining much easier. Try doing weighted crunches, holding a weight to your chest and for the diaper lifts put a weight between your knees or ankles. Be careful to keep a good grip on it though! PM me if you need more info. I'll be very glad to help!

Luv2hurt's abs are looking pretty sweet. He's the first official male model for the FBB board.

Luv2hurt's abs are looking pretty sweet. He's the first official male model for the FBB board.

Well thank you It will be a challange to keep pace with the quality of you ladies on this board

For abs Im pretty lazy and bet mine would be deeper if I trained them more. But Im with you Ripitup abs get lots of work as stabilizers. I noticed when I dieted down last time that my intercostals were great! But never have done anything for them. They get lots of work on squats, bent rows, stiff deadlifts, lunges!! As do the abs. But I still think for best results they should be trained at least once a week.

Lots of questions about training abs and developing the elusive six-pack. Lots of different approaches, and lots of ideas out there. Let's hear them!

I find that the ability to see my abs is related more to DIET (incl cardio of course ) than it is to specifically training the ab muscles, although training the abs is important for them to look toned when you are lean enough to display them.

When it comes to abs, I try to train them similar to other muscle groups, although I tend to hit them more than once or twice a week b/c they recover rather quickly. I try to train abs on any day they are not sore.I rely primarily on diet and cardio to show my abs better. You can do 1000000 sit ups every day, but until you are lean enough, you will not see your abs.

I do not train my obliques any more AT ALL. I used to train the hell out of them, and I had big obliques, which made my waist appear larger. NO side bends, NO twisting exercises at all....Once I stopped training my obliques, my waist shrunk by about 2 inches!

I find that you get enough oblique training in just from general training and training your abs. Remember that you also hit your abs and all of your core/stabilizer muscles when you train things like your back (lat pulldowns, for ex) and triceps (cable tricep pulls, for example) and when you train your lower body with free-form exercises like squats and walking lunges.

When I train abs, I usually stick to the basics, and I try to do 3 sets of 3 exercises:---crunches and/or sit ups on the incline---hanging leg lifts---Sometimes I use the crunch machine, although I am unclear whether or not training abs with weights is the way to go. Some people say you don't need anything more than your body weight.---I also like those cable pull-downs where you kneel on the ground and pull using a close-grip bar. I have no idea what they are really called, but I like them.

I have very shallow abs, meaning that even when I get really lean and you can see all of my abs, they are not deep ravioli-type abs, as much as I would like for them to be.

I have always wondered....Is deep versus shallow abs determined by genetics? Can I get deep ravioli abs by training them more, or harder, or differently? Or will I always have shallow abs?

When it comes to abs, do you rely on diet more than training?How do you train your abs? What are your favorite exercises?Weighted exercises versus body weight only? Do you train your obliques?

I have to say ditto to this.

For contests, I would always do about 5 sets of 20 hanging leg raises. Weighted crunches on the Roman Chair or a decline bench. Russian Twists. Cable or machine crunches. Now I try to focus more on "core strength"-stabilization, lower back and glutes, flexion. The looker muscles just get an average workout nowadays.

I haven't really trained abs hard lately, and I came across this pic, which is kind of motivating me to get back to it. This pic was taken one week out from Junior Nats this year, and it's probably the best my abs have EVER looked.

I can't figure out what the deal is with ABS and what it takes to really make them show, cuz they were there on this day, but then they weren't anywhere near this on the following day, or for the rest of the following week for that matter. I didn't change my diet either, I was following a strict precontest diet and eating pretty much the same thing every day. One day the abs would look good, the next day they would disappear.I don't know if it's a water thing, or what...it's not body fat because my BF got lower after this pic was taken, but the abs just were not as pronounced.

They aren't all that pronounced anyway...I would really like to add some depth to them this year, but I am not convinced that that's going to be possible.

I haven't really trained abs hard lately, and I came across this pic, which is kind of motivating me to get back to it. This pic was taken one week out from Junior Nats this year, and it's probably the best my abs have EVER looked.

I can't figure out what the deal is with ABS and what it takes to really make them show, cuz they were there on this day, but then they weren't anywhere near this on the following day, or for the rest of the following week for that matter. I didn't change my diet either, I was following a strict precontest diet and eating pretty much the same thing every day. One day the abs would look good, the next day they would disappear.I don't know if it's a water thing, or what...it's not body fat because my BF got lower after this pic was taken, but the abs just were not as pronounced.

They aren't all that pronounced anyway...I would really like to add some depth to them this year, but I am not convinced that that's going to be possible.

Abs looking good rip!! Man your BF is very low there! I would agree the fluctuation in your abs appearance was related to water. Now if you were playing with your carbs at this time that could be a big part of it. Another thing to consider is stress and anxiety at this time does weird things to your body and certain stress hormones can cause this water to appear under your skin and you to smooth over. am not saying you were stressed or anxious but if you were it is understandable before an event.

I like to try to chill as much as I can before a comp and will even go to the show with my MP3 player on and stay in my zone and remain calm as I can while listening to music that keeps me focused and motivated.

Abs looking good rip!! Man your BF is very low there! I would agree the fluctuation in your abs appearance was related to water. Now if you were playing with your carbs at this time that could be a big part of it. Another thing to consider is stress and anxiety at this time does weird things to your body and certain stress hormones can cause this water to appear under your skin and you to smooth over. am not saying you were stressed or anxious but if you were it is understandable before an event.

I like to try to chill as much as I can before a comp and will even go to the show with my MP3 player on and stay in my zone and remain calm as I can while listening to music that keeps me focused and motivated.

I guess it could be stress and water retention, who knows. I was one week out, so that was like a day or two before I started carb depleting, and I was eating pretty much the same thing every day. I'm sure it's got to do with water retention...although they didn't look like that on show day either, and I was dry as a bone. It may be a matter of fullness too. That's what's so frustrating about getting the abs to look the way they are supposed to on the right day!

I have heard suggestions from a few people that hanging leg raises are the way to go to thicken up the abs, so that's what I will be doing alot of during this off-season.

I haven't really trained abs hard lately, and I came across this pic, which is kind of motivating me to get back to it. This pic was taken one week out from Junior Nats this year, and it's probably the best my abs have EVER looked.

I can't figure out what the deal is with ABS and what it takes to really make them show, cuz they were there on this day, but then they weren't anywhere near this on the following day, or for the rest of the following week for that matter. I didn't change my diet either, I was following a strict precontest diet and eating pretty much the same thing every day. One day the abs would look good, the next day they would disappear.I don't know if it's a water thing, or what...it's not body fat because my BF got lower after this pic was taken, but the abs just were not as pronounced.

They aren't all that pronounced anyway...I would really like to add some depth to them this year, but I am not convinced that that's going to be possible.

Hiya Rip. I train my abs every other work out, calves on the other days. I never had abs in my life, even in my younger days and after having kids I thought I never could. But low and behold...getting ready for my first contest, two weeks out ... BAM! I was like WTH are those? lol.

Hiya Rip. I train my abs every other work out, calves on the other days. I never had abs in my life, even in my younger days and after having kids I thought I never could. But low and behold...getting ready for my first contest, two weeks out ... BAM! I was like WTH are those? lol.

For me, I know that I am in reach of where I need to be when my abs arrive. Yours look great Laura, nice and even and pronounced. I'm surprised you hadn't seen them before cuz they look pretty strong!

For me, I know that I am in reach of where I need to be when my abs arrive. Yours look great Laura, nice and even and pronounced. I'm surprised you hadn't seen them before cuz they look pretty strong!

Thanks Rip. They were always hiding, lol. I had enough bodyfat to keep them dormant for all those years, lol. I should have taken pictures after the show because they were even deeper after a couple days of eating some carbs. They definitely were "raviolis" lol

Thanks Rip. They were always hiding, lol. I had enough bodyfat to keep them dormant for all those years, lol. I should have taken pictures after the show because they were even deeper after a couple days of eating some carbs. They definitely were "raviolis" lol