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re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

Well certainly, I would assume that most of the stuff the NSA does is legal. I just take issue with that part that's not. And don't care what OWO says, I wasn't debating him.

I didn't mean to say you were debating him. I was trying to tactfully tell OWO that I pretty much disagree with him. He was making blanket statements and it was the same statement over and over. I hate listening to the same information more than twice. Ask my wife.

The thing that is frustrating to me is the lack of adherence to the law and the lack of accountability. If they break the law they should go to jail and that just doesn't happen. There isn't any reason they shouldn't do just whatever the hell they want.

re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

Originally Posted by NonoBadDog

was trying to tactfully tell OWO that I pretty much disagree with him. He was making blanket statements

Like when people say that what NSA does is illegal, when it's really just their own opinion? Shocking. Libertarians think the government is doing something illegal! I'd say stop the presses, but they're already part of the super secret conspiracy so would it even matter?

(Hint: normal people don't take them any more seriously than they do hardcore leftists)

Maybe the reason they're doing "whatever the hell they want" to you is because you don't actually see all the times they've been stifled by courts? Have you ever even considered that possibility? Serious question. Maybe the reason- shocking- that no one goes to jail is because what they're doing is legal. Whether you like it or not.

I'm sorry that it bores you that I repeat that fact, but I feel like it's kinda important. Like...maybe the most important thing? When people whine about something that they think should be illegal, it's probably kinda important to note if something isn't actually illegal, right?

Last edited by OldWorldOrder; 08-16-14 at 10:03 PM.

The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
-GK Chesterton

re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

Originally Posted by Hard Truth

Since you think metadata is not private information, to prove you are not a hypocrite, post your phone bill in this thread.

In principal i don't see that it would be so horrible to post my phone bill, if all bills are equally visible. But that was not quite the same thing as having it stored and data mined, the individual level open only under controlled conditions and for limited use.
You might make the point that Snowden or Manning showed it was naive to believe data were ever secret.

re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

Originally Posted by joG

After prison you might embrace him.

Prison?

Snowden disclosures had a positive impact on the NSA/FISC/FISA

THE USA FREEDOM ACT
Uniting and Strengthening America by Fulfilling Rights and Ending Eavesdropping, Dragnet Collection, and Online Monitoring Act
H.R. 3361/ S. 1599
Purpose: To rein in the dragnet collection of data by the National Security Agency (NSA) and other government agencies, increase transparency of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), provide businesses the ability to release information regarding FISA requests, and create an independent constitutional advocate to argue cases before the FISC.

End bulk collection of Americans’ communications records
• The USA Freedom Act ends bulk collection under Section 215 of the Patriot Act.
• The bill would strengthen the prohibition on "reverse targeting" of Americans—that is, targeting a foreigner with the goal of obtaining communications involving an American.
• The bill requires the government to more aggressively filter and discard information about Americans accidentally collected through PRISM and related programs.

Reform the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court
• The USA Freedom Act creates an Office of the Special Advocate (OSA) tasked with promoting privacy interests before the FISA court’s closed proceedings. The OSA will have the authority to appeal decisions of the FISA court.
• The bill creates new and more robust reporting requirements to ensure that Congress is aware of actions by the FISC and intelligence community as a whole.
• The bill would grant the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board subpoena authority to investigate issues related to privacy and national security.

Increase Transparency
• The USA Freedom Act would end secret laws by requiring the Attorney General to publicly disclose all FISC decisions issued after July 10, 2003 that contain a significant construction or interpretation of law.
• Under the bill, Internet and telecom companies would be allowed to publicly report an estimate of (1) the number of FISA orders and national security letters received, (2) the number of such orders and letters complied with, and (3) the number of users or accounts on whom information was demanded under the orders and letters.
• The bill would require the government to make annual or semiannual public reports estimating the total number of individuals and U.S. persons that were subject to FISA orders authorizing electronic surveillance, pen/trap devices, and access to business records.

National Security Letters
• The USA Freedom Act adopts a single standard for Section 215 and NSL protection to ensure the Administration doesn’t use different authorities to support bulk collection. It also adds a sunset date to NSLs requiring that Congress reauthorize the government’s authority thereby ensuring proper congressional review.

re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

Originally Posted by NonoBadDog

I didn't mean to say you were debating him. I was trying to tactfully tell OWO that I pretty much disagree with him. He was making blanket statements and it was the same statement over and over. I hate listening to the same information more than twice. Ask my wife.

The thing that is frustrating to me is the lack of adherence to the law and the lack of accountability. If they break the law they should go to jail and that just doesn't happen. There isn't any reason they shouldn't do just whatever the hell they want.

Then you would be correct. What NSA was doing was an intrusion of fourth amendment rights, and a threat to a democratic society. The outrage wasnt confined to a party, it was bi-partisan and universal.

Republican leaders have voted to denounce the “intrusion on basic human rights that threatens the very foundations of a democratic society” by the National Security Agency and backed efforts in Congress to outlaw all bulk collection of data on Americans.

re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

Originally Posted by Montecresto

Prison?

Snowden disclosures had a positive impact on the NSA/FISC/FISA

THE USA FREEDOM ACT
Uniting and Strengthening America by Fulfilling Rights and Ending Eavesdropping, Dragnet Collection, and Online Monitoring Act
H.R. 3361/ S. 1599
Purpose: To rein in the dragnet collection of data by the National Security Agency (NSA) and other government agencies, increase transparency of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), provide businesses the ability to release information regarding FISA requests, and create an independent constitutional advocate to argue cases before the FISC.

End bulk collection of Americans’ communications records
• The USA Freedom Act ends bulk collection under Section 215 of the Patriot Act.
• The bill would strengthen the prohibition on "reverse targeting" of Americans—that is, targeting a foreigner with the goal of obtaining communications involving an American.
• The bill requires the government to more aggressively filter and discard information about Americans accidentally collected through PRISM and related programs.

Reform the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court
• The USA Freedom Act creates an Office of the Special Advocate (OSA) tasked with promoting privacy interests before the FISA court’s closed proceedings. The OSA will have the authority to appeal decisions of the FISA court.
• The bill creates new and more robust reporting requirements to ensure that Congress is aware of actions by the FISC and intelligence community as a whole.
• The bill would grant the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board subpoena authority to investigate issues related to privacy and national security.

Increase Transparency
• The USA Freedom Act would end secret laws by requiring the Attorney General to publicly disclose all FISC decisions issued after July 10, 2003 that contain a significant construction or interpretation of law.
• Under the bill, Internet and telecom companies would be allowed to publicly report an estimate of (1) the number of FISA orders and national security letters received, (2) the number of such orders and letters complied with, and (3) the number of users or accounts on whom information was demanded under the orders and letters.
• The bill would require the government to make annual or semiannual public reports estimating the total number of individuals and U.S. persons that were subject to FISA orders authorizing electronic surveillance, pen/trap devices, and access to business records.

National Security Letters
• The USA Freedom Act adopts a single standard for Section 215 and NSL protection to ensure the Administration doesn’t use different authorities to support bulk collection. It also adds a sunset date to NSLs requiring that Congress reauthorize the government’s authority thereby ensuring proper congressional review.

Sure the publication of the documents had positive impacts. That is fine and good.

But that is not enough reason to discount the negatives. He simply went too far for that. Had he refrained from publicizing the foreign activities of NSA I could understand your position. As it is, no way.
I live in the midst of a foreign population that went into a frenzy and is following very negative policy for the US because of the revelations. And after the Manning thing foreign agencies are less likely to reveal sources or even information for fear of embarrassment. The Snowden thing is costing the US dearly.

re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

They don't care about that. They try to pretend that that didn't happen as much as possible. The two things Snowden fans absolutely must do:

1- Pretend that their opinion of what should be legal is actual fact.
2- Ignore that Snowden disclosed operations that were wholly foreign.

Take note: they always adhere to both of those rules. When you have to deny reality to maintain your position...well, that's indicative of not having a logically sound position.

The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
-GK Chesterton