I'm not sure it's fair play. It's actually quite cruel. Certainly, the way both go about doing what they do causes more pain than anything, mainly because they are not honest about their true motivations.

The atmosphere of distrust was pretty thick there. I know I said Jacob had a very good view of the delivery and bite scene, a superior one in fact. I would have easily given that up without one regret to have stayed in Bella's head for her final human days.

Tornado wrote:

smitten_by_twilight wrote:And not to forget - Jazz Girl, well thought out and passionate post overall, and pretty much exactly my feelings. On reflection I wonder if Rob perhaps played that scene more like a human (angry) and less like a vampire (hurt), just because I don't know if Edward would even be comfortable losing control enough to yell at Bella. But it's a very fine line, and an agonized Edward could certainly let his anguish and his terror show.

Actually, Edward does yell at Bella in the books. He yells at her at the end of New Moon when everyone votes yes to her becoming a vampire. Bella also makes it clear that she is afraid that he'll yet at her when she comes back from her impulse visit to Jake. I think there's enough evidence in the books to suggest that he's yelled at Bella on more than one occasion (we know he has a temper), so it's not unreasonable to assume that he would have yelled at Bella when she told him her decision, even though he quickly realised he couldn't do that when it made her condition worse during the pregnancy.

The only problem I had with Edward showing anger was if it had been done with the purpose of making Jacob look better. I was concerned about the outburst, but specifically the context of it, so the BD1 trailer had me a little worried for a while.

I also think Rob was getting tired of showing just the long-suffering, noble, self-negating side of Edward. I know there were elements to that reception scene he objected to, showing too much deference to Jacob. Taylor also had issues with the imprinting, and I didn't blame him one bit. Sometimes the male just comes out. You'll never convince most men that stripping out "typical" male responses and reactions from a character improves that character or makes them more appealing. It's a mystery to us. What's the point of revealing and highlighting an aspect of a man's character if we have to sacrifice his masculinity to do that?

It's like the "puppies" scene between Edward and Jacob. I can step aside and look at it objectively as revealing the depths of Edward's love for Bella and his willingness to do anything for her. My visceral reaction is different, it just feels completely wrong and unfair to both parties.

"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

As always VERY interesting conversation going on here. Just wanted to share my errant thoughts on subjects being discussed.

CHOICESI think in every book the only one with choices to make was Bella.

I feel Edward was coerced in practically everything involving Bella (except #6 of this list):

1. His vampire-mate instincts coerced him (he isn’t free NOT to love Bella) to fall in love with Bella.

2. Alice’s vision coerced him to ignore Bella.

3. The idea that Bella would/could be someone else’s coerced him to stop ignoring her and start getting involved with Bella.

4. Jasper’s accident coerced him to break up with Bella. (Also, although Edward didn’t know it yet but the power of his choice, NOT to turn Bella, was lost right at this moment because Carlisle was going to be forced to supersede Edward’s choice due to the many consequences this choice brought. I don’t personally agree with Carlisle’s choice but I understand why he did it).

5. Carlisle accepting Bella’s request to sire her coerced Edward to bargain a double-sided proposal of siring her IF she married him FIRST. I think if Bella would have said NO in EC to Edward’s marriage proposal, it would have been Carlisle bites, vampire-Bella is created then Edward & Bella’s honeymoon of forever begins.

6. In Breaking Dawn SM/Renesmee took the opportunity away from Edward & Bella to act on their choices/bargains. Also, Carlisle’s necessary absence in the delivery left Edward no choice but to sire dying Bella himself and the rest is history. I know Edward had bargained to to sire healthy-Bella, BUT I don't think the bargain was to sire dying-Bella. I think Edward wouldn't want to take any more chances with fragile Bella, I think he would have let or insisted Carlisle bite.

BELLA’S PREGNANCYBy Bella deciding to keep Renesmee, she took Edward’s choice to be, or not be, a father and a widower. I feel Edward had the right to be VERY upset and Bella had the right to keep their child.

I also think, Bella would have made the same choice regardless of who the beloved-father of her unborn child was. Bella does say, “I wish I could explain it to you right so that you would understand. I can’t hurt him”—she pointed to her stomach—“any more than I could pick up a gun and shoot you. I love him.” And as we, and I believe Edward also, well knew by book 4, Bella’s loved ones are worth more to her than her own life (as the engraved locket says).

Side Note: I just LOVED Robert Pattinson’s performance as Edward when he yells at Bella. It took me by surprise. This scene was a major tearful moment for me. Edward was right. Bella was right. And all I could do was feel deep sadness and cry. I truly think this was one of Robert Pattinson’s Oscar Award winning performances. The other Oscar Award winning performance was when he’s trying to fervently and lovingly save dying Bella with his bites, again more tears in that scene for me. I LOVED BD1.

EDWARD TAKING AWAY BELLA’S CHOICE IN NM AND BELLA TAKING AWAY EDWARD’S CHOICE IN BDI thought Edward’s cruel lies in the NM breakup speech were intentionally hurtful. He had a good reason to leave but he should’ve just told her the truth of why he was leaving and then left. I mean, he left regardless of Bella’s plea to stay, so why not just tell her the truth, he’s leaving anyway.

I thought Bella’s BD self-sacrifice for Renesmee was heroic and unintentionally hurtful to Edward. Now, I don’t think Edward really understood Bella’s parental protectiveness until he heard Renesmee’s thoughts. I kind of didn’t expect him to yet, being that he hadn’t accepted his parental status until then. Although, after he did accept it he was on the same page as Bella.

corona wrote:The only problem I had with Edward showing anger was if it had been done with the purpose of making Jacob look better. I was concerned about the outburst, but specifically the context of it, so the BD1 trailer had me a little worried for a while.

I don't think that's the way it was meant. It didn't seem that way to me, anyway.

corona wrote:I also think Rob was getting tired of showing just the long-suffering, noble, self-negating side of Edward. I know there were elements to that reception scene he objected to, showing too much deference to Jacob. Taylor also had issues with the imprinting, and I didn't blame him one bit. Sometimes the male just comes out. You'll never convince most men that stripping out "typical" male responses and reactions from a character improves that character or makes them more appealing. It's a mystery to us. What's the point of revealing and highlighting an aspect of a man's character if we have to sacrifice his masculinity to do that?

In an interview I saw with Rob he said it was very difficult for him to play Edward angry with Bella because he'd never been that way before, but I was glad he got the opportunity to show that Bella was really hurting him.

corona wrote:It's like the "puppies" scene between Edward and Jacob. I can step aside and look at it objectively as revealing the depths of Edward's love for Bella and his willingness to do anything for her. My visceral reaction is different, it just feels completely wrong and unfair to both parties.

Yes, that scene creeped me out in the books, although I understood perfectly well why Edward did it.

Violet Sunlight wrote:BELLA’S PREGNANCYBy Bella deciding to keep Renesmee, she took Edward’s choice to be, or not be, a father and a widower. I feel Edward had the right to be VERY upset and Bella had the right to keep their child.

I also think, Bella would have made the same choice regardless of who the beloved-father of her unborn child was. Bella does say, “I wish I could explain it to you right so that you would understand. I can’t hurt him”—she pointed to her stomach—“any more than I could pick up a gun and shoot you. I love him.” And as we, and I believe Edward also, well knew by book 4, Bella’s loved ones are worth more to her than her own life (as the engraved locket says).

Violet Sunlight~ I am inclined to agree with you on most of your points, save this one. We have Bella's exact thoughts on the subject and they specifically otherwise.

Breaking Dawn, Chpt 7, Pg 1821~ It had been a piece of cake to promise Edward that I didn't care about giving up children for him, because I truly didn't. Children, in the abstract, had never appealed to me. they seemed to be loud creatures, often dripping some form of goo. I'd never had much to do with them. When I'd dreamed of Renee providing me with a brother, I'd always imagined an older brother. someone to take care of me, rahter than the other way around. This child, Edward's child (emphasis added) was a whole different story. I wanted him like I wanted air to breathe.

And, even when Jacob tries to make that insane deal with her, to rid herself of Edward's child for a child that won't kill her...

Breaking Dawn, Chpt 7, Pg 1881~ It's not like that. I didn't really care about having a baby. I didn't even think about it. It's not just having a baby. It's ... well... this baby.

And, again, when he kept pushing...

Breaking Dawn, Chpt 7, Pg Pg 1883~ Oh. Ugh. Please, Jacob. You think I should kill my baby and replace it with some generic substitute? Artificial insemination?... Why would I want to have some stranger's baby? I suppose it just doesn't make a difference? Any baby will do?

And when she realizes exactly whose idea that idiocy is?

Breaking Dawn, Chpt 7, Pg 1883~ He would do anything for me. And I'm hurting him so muh... But what is he thinking? That I would trade this- her hand traced across her belly- for some stranger's...

I may be about as insane as Edward at the point where she's having this conversation. But, even Jacob realizes that it has nothing to do with the baby and everything to do with her father.

Corona~ It is an interesting supposition to say that it was her way of avoiding confirming the truth for Edward, essentially holding him off. It's certainly possible. But, what I come back to is the fact that her logic has never failed to convince him of what is truly right for both of them. Even when he left in NM, he couldn't argue with the reality that he wasn't a danger to her. Every time he dug in his heals, Bella's patient logic wore him down until he had not choice but to accept her truth... the truth. It started in Twilight and it continued all along. Hell, I may have hated what she was advocating for, but in the end, she was always right in some fashion. And, Edward isn't a stupid man. He's always known she was smarter than him. His panic just got the better of him. I always gave Bella a little bit of credit for realizing that she hated being kept in the dark and so would Edward. So why, when it was the most massive threat to them, she would decide to completely shut him out was always completely beyond me.

Jazz Girl, I wasn't advocating that Bella was being entirely rational about the thing, just that Edward's potential reaction may have made a difference in her judgment.

It's just a theory. I'm trying to come up with some reason why Bella did what she did.

Let's agree that there aren't many good, clean, virtuous reasons. Yes, I believe both Edward in NM and Bella in BD are displaying calculated behavior. They believe shutting the other out is necessary for better ends. Bella is proved right, but that doesn't make her lack of communication right.

Your point is well taken about Edward's initial panic, it happens, but Bella never decides to give him the benefit of the doubt, she decides to hold back from the very beginning.

BTW, I never saw this coming, and while I might offer explanations or rationale, I do NOT like what I saw. It was not the Bella I knew. It may have been the same Bella under extraordinary circumstances, but we weren't in her head and we don't get any kind of explanation from her later, which would've helped immensely. Her thoughts and conversation during the moments when that initial confrontation occurred are lost forever, and we are never granted any kind of a retrospective.

A good question is whether that was simply an editing issue or whether there was a real purpose in not giving us that perspective.

"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

corona wrote:Let's agree that there aren't many good, clean, virtuous reasons. Yes, I believe both Edward in NM and Bella in BD are displaying calculated behavior. They believe shutting the other out is necessary for better ends. Bella is proved right, but that doesn't make her lack of communication right.

Absolutely.

corona wrote:BTW, I never saw this coming, and while I might offer explanations or rationale, I do NOT like what I saw. It was not the Bella I knew. It may have been the same Bella under extraordinary circumstances, but we weren't in her head and we don't get any kind of explanation from her later, which would've helped immensely. Her thoughts and conversation during the moments when that initial confrontation occurred are lost forever, and we are never granted any kind of a retrospective.

A good question is whether that was simply an editing issue or whether there was a real purpose in not giving us that perspective.

I'd say it was more an editing issue. SM had originally, in Forever Dawn, written that whole part from Bella's perspective. It would have been easier to have spruced that up than rewrite it. It was the later decision to make that section from Jake POV, because so much was happening away from Bella, that caused the change, rather than a deliberate decision to stop us from knowing Bella's thought processes.

Tornado wrote:I'd say it was more an editing issue. SM had originally, in Forever Dawn, written that whole part from Bella's perspective. It would have been easier to have spruced that up than rewrite it. It was the later decision to make that section from Jake POV, because so much was happening away from Bella, that caused the change, rather than a deliberate decision to stop us from knowing Bella's thought processes.

Alphie has read FD, so she would be able to answer that question, how everything went down originally and if B&E had communication issues in that version, and what Bella was thinking during that whole time.

I might assume since Edward's issues hadn't come fully out in that version, that there wasn't such a break between the two of them.

Frankly, I don't even know if Bella enlists Rosalie's help in the original version.

I would love to read that. Maybe SM will allow us that at some point.

"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

I wish I’d known earlier that you guys were talking about this. I hope you don’t mind if I go back a little. Because I absolutely hate that outburst-scene in BD1. Loathe it! I find it even worse than the motorcycle scene from Eclipse. Either I close my eyes and ears for a minute and pretend it never happened or I cringe with tears in my eyes during the whole exchange. I had a similar initial reaction as Jazz Girl, thinking that Edward would never, ever yell at Bella like that. But for me, that feeling only grew stronger when I saw it in it’s full context.

I was eventually okay with the yelling. As Tornado pointed out, Edward does yell at Bella in the book at the end of NM. And I do believe he could have lost his control and temper when he first found out what Bella thought about the pregnancy. Sadly, we don’t get any conformation this happened in the book due to the POV switch, yes. But what really gets me is the fact he gets this angry with her; refusing to even let her speak, refusing to listen to her and refusing to at least try to understand her point of view. In the book, I always got the impression that he did realize why Bella did what she did and he was trying to understand it. He didn’t agree with her, but at least he saw her POV. In the movie it feels like he’s blatantly blocking her out. Refusing to even let her try to explain.

Edward is always saying how he doesn’t want to be selfish. At least not when it’s about Bella. He leaves in NM, because he thinks continuing their relationship just because he loves her is selfish. He can’t give her a normal human life and she – as a human – cannot possibly love him as much as he loves her, so by staying he will only ruin her chances of a normal life and happiness and actual love. Plus it will put her in constant danger. Just because he happened to fall in love with her. It’s the same thing with his reasoning behind not wanting to change her. To quote Eclipse (movie, because I don’t have my book right now and youtube is pretty convenient): “You believe I have a soul and I don’t. But to risk yours just for the sake of never having to loose you… That’s the most selfish thing I’ll ever do.” It even came back in BD2 when he has the conversation with Carlisle at the campfire. All these vampires are risking their lives just because he fell in love with a human. But in that one scene in BD1 all he can say and think of is “his choice”. He doesn’t choose to loose her and he doesn’t care whatsoever about Bella’s choice. Isn’t that pretty selfish?

But even if I could somehow ignore all the above, Edward walking out on Bella and practically slamming the door in her face is just… no, no, no, NO! Bella is just laying there. The fact alone that she’s in physical pain – she just had her rib broken for one - should be enough for him to not ever leave her side no matter how stubborn he thinks she is. And that is not even the worst thing. He hurt her emotionally! He did that! No matter how angry he is with her, some part of him – and I’d like to think that’s a fairly large part – must want to comfort her, apologize, try to make it better. That look on Bella’s face after he slams the door… That’s enough for even me to want to run over there and give her a huge hug and let her cry it out on my shoulder. And she’s not even the love of my life. Edward walking out on her while she’s hurt and broken both physically and mentally is just incomprehensible to me. Yes, he may have lost his temper at some point, but the way it escalated from there is just not in unison with the Edward I thought I knew.

Anyways, sorry to go back on a somewhat old point, but I get really… uhm, passionate… about this scene. And I’m probably not even explaining it right. Really enjoy reading all of your comments though. Some very interesting points have been explored here. If I had a little more time right now, I’d respond some more in detail. But could someone explain to me how you all got to the conclusion that Bella doesn’t communicate with Edward in BD? Because I didn’t get this impression. It is of course difficult to tell with the POV switch and I do agree that it would be nice to have gotten some sort of account of the events before Jacob first shows up at the Cullen house. But I always believed that by that time, Bella and Edward (and the rest of the Cullens) have had some very serious conversations. They just don’t agree and therefore reached an impasse and seem rather cold toward each other. I’m talking about the book here. If I look at the movie, I’d say Edward is to blame for the lack of communication because of the above mentioned scene.

Suzan wrote:I was eventually okay with the yelling. As Tornado pointed out, Edward does yell at Bella in the book at the end of NM. And I do believe he could have lost his control and temper when he first found out what Bella thought about the pregnancy. Sadly, we don’t get any conformation this happened in the book due to the POV switch, yes. But what really gets me is the fact he gets this angry with her; refusing to even let her speak, refusing to listen to her and refusing to at least try to understand her point of view. In the book, I always got the impression that he did realize why Bella did what she did and he was trying to understand it. He didn’t agree with her, but at least he saw her POV. In the movie it feels like he’s blatantly blocking her out. Refusing to even let her try to explain.

Hmmm, Suzan, we must have read different books. I have never gotten the impression, in any of my readings, that Edward understood her POV. All he saw was that Bella was, essentially, making a choice to kill herself for the sake of something that he could only see as evil. It was only when he was able to hear Ness' thoughts, understand that she wasn't evil, wasn't like him (in his opinion) but like her mother, that he could even accept her actions. I always felt like the film never communicated the way that Bella shut him out, completely hid behind Rosalie, who would not even let Edward within an arm's length of his own wife, regardless of his torment or his spoken agreement that he could not do anything to Bella, or Bella's assertion that she wasn't afraid of him. It's one reason I haven't ever been able to fully like or accept Rose.

Suzan wrote: Edward is always saying how he doesn’t want to be selfish. At least not when it’s about Bella. He leaves in NM, because he thinks continuing their relationship just because he loves her is selfish. He can’t give her a normal human life and she – as a human – cannot possibly love him as much as he loves her, so by staying he will only ruin her chances of a normal life and happiness and actual love. Plus it will put her in constant danger. Just because he happened to fall in love with her. It’s the same thing with his reasoning behind not wanting to change her. To quote Eclipse (movie, because I don’t have my book right now and youtube is pretty convenient): “You believe I have a soul and I don’t. But to risk yours just for the sake of never having to loose you… That’s the most selfish thing I’ll ever do.” It even came back in BD2 when he has the conversation with Carlisle at the campfire. All these vampires are risking their lives just because he fell in love with a human. But in that one scene in BD1 all he can say and think of is “his choice”. He doesn’t choose to loose her and he doesn’t care whatsoever about Bella’s choice. Isn’t that pretty selfish?

I've not ever seen it as a matter of his being selfish. I think he's emotionally overwrought and at his literal end. EVERYTHING he's ever done, from the very beginning, has been for her. He's only ever wanted her safe and happy. And now, as he sees it, he's responsible for her death, a death he feels is imminent, with no way to do anything about it, even change her, and all she continues to do is completely shut him out and tell him it has nothing to do with him. It has a lot to do with him. She's his wife and his mate. When you are someone's partner, your life effects them and vice versa. Your choices effect them and vice versa. Regardless of what choice she was making, she owed it to him to at least have the conversation with him. But, she doesn't. Not in the film and not in the books. She hides behind Rosalie and flatly refuses to even hear him.

Suzan wrote:But even if I could somehow ignore all the above, Edward walking out on Bella and practically slamming the door in her face is just… no, no, no, NO! Bella is just laying there. The fact alone that she’s in physical pain – she just had her rib broken for one - should be enough for him to not ever leave her side no matter how stubborn he thinks she is. And that is not even the worst thing. He hurt her emotionally! He did that! No matter how angry he is with her, some part of him – and I’d like to think that’s a fairly large part – must want to comfort her, apologize, try to make it better. That look on Bella’s face after he slams the door… That’s enough for even me to want to run over there and give her a huge hug and let her cry it out on my shoulder. And she’s not even the love of my life. Edward walking out on her while she’s hurt and broken both physically and mentally is just incomprehensible to me. Yes, he may have lost his temper at some point, but the way it escalated from there is just not in unison with the Edward I thought I knew.

I think part of the reason I am so able to not only accept, but to celebrate this scene is because we are so used to seeing these characters do things in the films that we KNOW that their book counterparts would never do. *coughParkingLotScenecough*. But, also, this was honestly a scene that I wanted to see in the novels, before I'd ever seen the films, or even conceptualized them. It honestly irritated me to no end that Edward just allowed himself to be swept aside like he didn't matter, to not even assert his right as her husband and the father of that baby to have any kind of consideration in what was going on. Edward could never handle seeing Bella in pain. He did not want to upset the balance in any way. That's gospel. But, the reality is that Bella needed to hear him, to understand, even if it wasn't going to change her decision, how absolutely and utterly gutted he was, how terrified he was that, now that he finally had her and it seemed like their forever might just be a possibility, she is throwing him away, throwing their relationship away over something evil. Yes, he was absolutely wrong in the end. But, just as Edward had no right to shut her out in NM before he left, she had no right to shut him out in BD. She was literally killing him a piece at a time. It wasn't about being selfish. It was about needing to at least be heard.

Suzan wrote:But could someone explain to me how you all got to the conclusion that Bella doesn’t communicate with Edward in BD? Because I didn’t get this impression. It is of course difficult to tell with the POV switch and I do agree that it would be nice to have gotten some sort of account of the events before Jacob first shows up at the Cullen house. But I always believed that by that time, Bella and Edward (and the rest of the Cullens) have had some very serious conversations. They just don’t agree and therefore reached an impasse and seem rather cold toward each other. I’m talking about the book here. If I look at the movie, I’d say Edward is to blame for the lack of communication because of the above mentioned scene.

My impression comes straight from the novels and is based on how we see things go down. From the moment they return, Bella hides behind Rosalie. We see her repeatedly and consistently not even allow Edward near Bella, let alone be alone with her to discuss what is going on. Bella knew that Rosalie, out of all of the Cullens, would run interference because of her own selfish desires. She knew that, once she told Rosalie she was pregnant and that she feared Edward's actions, Rosalie would do anything, regardless of the realities of the situation, to help Bella deliver that baby. She knew that Rose doesn't give two shakes about ensuring Bella's survival. And, if it came to the decision, only Rose out of all of them would choose the baby over her life. Yes, we do lose the nuances because of the perspective change. But, the information is there. Edward explains to Jacob; "She wouldn't talk to me on the way home, not really. I thought she was frightened - that would be atural. I thought she was angry with me for putting her through this, for endangering her life. Again. I never imagined what she was really thinking, what she was resolving. Not until my family met us at the airport and she ran right into Rosalie's arms. Rosalie's! And then I heard what Rosalie was thinking. I didn't understand until I heard that." Once Rosalie was next to Bella, there wasn't any kind of discussion to be had. My impression from what we hear from Edward was that there might have been two or three sentences exchanged. And none of those were between Edward & Bella. None of them allowed him to actually speak to her, or her to speak to him for that matter. Because Rosalie never left her side. She was there usurping Edward's position as his wife's caregiver. Even when Bella is vomiting and Edward is prone at her feet, tormented by her pain, Rose is there with a warning hand between them. When Bella cries out and has to be carried upstairs, it is Rose who carries her, not Edward, having the unmitigated gall to snap at Edward for even thinking to lay a hand on his wife. No, to me the most telling scene in the entire movie is not Edward finally reaching his breaking point and demanding to at least be heard, to feel like his opinion and feelings as Bella's husband do, in fact, matter. It is the vision we have of skeletal Bella being drawn a bath by her bodyguard who then slams the door in Edward's tormented and tortured face as he gazes at the beaten body of the love of his life.