1. To be a good Orthodox (or Catholic) Christian, to hold a worldview consistent with those churches, one must oppose the war, and by extension the President?

2. One issue (the war) outweighs all the negative things about Kerry-after all, almost everyone here is a social conservative, and disagrees strongly with JFK on these issues.

3. Bush is bad because of high-church snobbery-he's not an overly intellectual Orthodox, Anglican, or Catholic who getts bogged down in these silly Internet debates, and can claim to repesent historic Christendom?

Liberal Catholics, for example, complain that abortion shouldn't be the sole issue in voting for political candidates. In a certain sense, I can see the same thing happening here-there seems to be an impression that those posters who actually support the war, (and by extension the President) are somehow betraying Orthodoxy, or Catholicism, etc. One person even went so far as to imply that one pro-Bush supporter even still had a Protestant mindset, presumabely because he's a pro-Bush supporter. If (in this esteemed board's mind) the only supporters of the war are conspirational neo-cons (the most misused phrase of the decade, by people who have no idea what they're talking about) and who are unrepentant Protestants, then I'll gladly identify myself with them, if it means preserving civilization.

1. To be a good Orthodox (or Catholic) Christian, to hold a worldview consistent with those churches, one must oppose the war, and by extension the President?

2. One issue (the war) outweighs all the negative things about Kerry-after all, almost everyone here is a social conservative, and disagrees strongly with JFK on these issues.

3. Bush is bad because of high-church snobbery-he's not an overly intellectual Orthodox, Anglican, or Catholic who getts bogged down in these silly Internet debates, and can claim to repesent historic Christendom?

Liberal Catholics, for example, complain that abortion shouldn't be the sole issue in voting for political candidates. In a certain sense, I can see the same thing happening here-there seems to be an impression that those posters who actually support the war, (and by extension the President) are somehow betraying Orthodoxy, or Catholicism, etc. One person even went so far as to imply that one pro-Bush supporter even still had a Protestant mindset, presumabely because he's a pro-Bush supporter. If (in this esteemed board's mind) the only supporters of the war are conspirational neo-cons (the most misused phrase of the decade, by people who have no idea what they're talking about) and who are unrepentant Protestants, then I'll gladly identify myself with them, if it means preserving civilization.

Hmm, methinks that the course of these threads is that there is no such consensus!

"1. To be a good Orthodox (or Catholic) Christian, to hold a worldview consistent with those churches, one must oppose the war, and by extension the President?"

I don't think anyone has said that. I think that some of us are saying is that these things all have to be taken into account, just as the prolife issue is, but that church teaching does not mandate one candidate over another, basically outlawing supporting certain candidates. There are others, by contrast, who are saying that to be a good Orthodox or Catholic Christian one *cannot* cast a vote for a candidate who is openly pro-choice, and that therefore one *cannot*, under penalty of sin, cast a vote for Senator Kerry.

"2. One issue (the war) outweighs all the negative things about Kerry-after all, almost everyone here is a social conservative, and disagrees strongly with JFK on these issues."

Well, some of us also disagree with the current administration about the death penalty, tax policy and other issues. However, what makes one support one or another candidate is based on a variety of issues taken together, not one or two litmus test issues. And I am not a social liberal, I just think that the death penalty is generally immoral in a civilized society such as ours and that cutting tax rates while raising spending is, at best, misguided (as much as I personally may benefit from the reduced tax rates).

"3. Bush is bad because of high-church snobbery-he's not an overly intellectual Orthodox, Anglican, or Catholic who getts bogged down in these silly Internet debates, and can claim to repesent historic Christendom?"

Ah, well at least you are equal opportunity in attacking me, Jennifer and Keble in one breath! I think each of us, however, how our own reasons for thinking like we do, and it's pretty much impossible to loop us all together as you have just tried to do.

"Liberal Catholics, for example, complain that abortion shouldn't be the sole issue in voting for political candidates."

If you're referring to Jennifer, she certainly doesn't *seem* like a "liberal Catholic" to me. I knew many of these when I was a Catholic myself, and she doesn't appear to me to be one of them, but again this goes to the issue of "labelling", as Jennifer rightly pointed out several posts ago.

"One person even went so far as to imply that one pro-Bush supporter even still had a Protestant mindset, presumabely because he's a pro-Bush supporter."

No, that wasn't it. You obviously didn't get it. Go back and re-read Jennifer's posts about that poster, and you will see that this is not the basis for her observations about him.

1. To be a good Orthodox (or Catholic) Christian, to hold a worldview consistent with those churches, one must oppose the war, and by extension the President?

Of course not. This was mentioned, I think, several times on both sides; one's stance on the war has no bearing, ultimately, on whether someone is deemed Orthodox, Catholic, or Hari Krishna. You can see several posters who are very pro-Bush policy and very Orthodox, which would upset any kind of "consensus" Jennifer, Brendan or I could claim to have on this thread.

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2. One issue (the war) outweighs all the negative things about Kerry-after all, almost everyone here is a social conservative, and disagrees strongly with JFK on these issues.

Huh? Read the "No Communion for Kerry" thread; almost all the folks who are outspoken in their opposition to the Iraq war are saying that they won't vote for Kerry because he's pro-choice.

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3. Bush is bad because of high-church snobbery-he's not an overly intellectual Orthodox, Anglican, or Catholic who getts bogged down in these silly Internet debates, and can claim to repesent historic Christendom?

LOL OK, so some of us have more time on our hands than others -- his not being the brightest crayon in the box doesn't necessarily come from his faith. To me, Bush is a bad politician (not person) because his assumptions concerning international politics are flawed, not because he's a Protestant.

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One person even went so far as to imply that one pro-Bush supporter even still had a Protestant mindset, presumabely because he's a pro-Bush supporter.

And, I believe, was shouted down for those beliefs by the other posters, even by those who were against the war.

"1. To be a good Orthodox (or Catholic) Christian, to hold a worldview consistent with those churches, one must oppose the war, and by extension the President?"

Sounds about right to me.

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"2. One issue (the war) outweighs all the negative things about Kerry-after all, almost everyone here is a social conservative, and disagrees strongly with JFK on these issues."

I know you're making fun of the position I happen to hold but yes.

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"3. Bush is bad because of high-church snobbery-he's not an overly intellectual Orthodox, Anglican, or Catholic who getts bogged down in these silly Internet debates, and can claim to repesent historic Christendom?"

Ah, well at least you are equal opportunity in attacking me, Jennifer and Keble in one breath!

Probably me too. I don't like either candidate's religion - Mr Bush's nutter Protestantism or Mr Kerry's quisling pseudo-RC pose. The candidates' religions, and the Internet and its debates, have nothing to do with this. Churchmanship is not the issue and even if it were, neither candidate is high-church really.

If having a worldview, faith and common sense to see the war for what it is makes one an 'innaleckshooal' (as if that's a bad thing) and a snob, so be it. FWIW, yes, Bush is a roob (which I'm sure gets him votes from some quarters) and the Kerrys have good looks and style (which, though it's irrelevant, gets votes from different quarters).

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"One person even went so far as to imply that one pro-Bush supporter even still had a Protestant mindset, presumabely because he's a pro-Bush supporter."

Maybe all Orthodox should give up the whole idea of voting period since no one comes even close to our beliefs.

JoeS

I think you're probably joking but sometimes I sense a kind of 'isolationist' attitude amongst 'conservative' christians which sometimes extends to 'boycotting' an election.

I see the appeal and have considered not voting in the upcoming election myself. However, if we remove ourselves entirely from the political process do things get worse?

Plus I think that we avoid at all costs 'isolationism.' I see 'isolationism' as a bad tendency amongst 'conservative' christians. 'Liberals' have their bad tendencies and we have ours. One way we can fight against that tendency is to not isolate ourselves from the political process.

But on the other hand, by participating in the process we support candidates who are 'heretical' and 'anti-life.'

"I see the appeal and have considered not voting in the upcoming election myself. However, if we remove ourselves entirely from the political process do things get worse?"

Well, I don't know. I agree with your ideas about isolationism. If I abstain from the upcoming vote it will not be because I am a conservative isolationist, but will be because I cannot support either major candidate based on a wide variety of issues, not the prolife issue alone. I may look at third party candidates more closely and cast a vote for one of them if I can find one whose policies I can support.

The accusation that converts from Protestantism, whether to Orthodoxy or Catholicism, still have a "Protestant mindset" or are carrying "Protestant baggage," etc., is the favorite of insult used by Roman Catholics, former Roman Catholics, and cradle Orthodox against such converts.

IMHO, it is utterly bogus.

The real "mindset" we bring to the Christian faith is the worldly mindset; the real "baggage" we carry with us everywhere is SIN.

Many of those who were first converted to Christ through Protestantism have been engaged for many years in the earnest pursuit of their Lord. That is the chief reason that, against all odds, and in the face of familial and peer pressure, they converted to Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

Zeal is often one of the characteristics of such earnest people.

That is why they are so despised by the lukewarm and complacent, who, snug in their cradles, infect the Church with the worldly mindset and mistake it for "Catholic culture" or "the Eastern way of thinking."

« Last Edit: May 07, 2004, 08:28:38 AM by Linus7 »

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The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.- Pope St. Hormisdas

The accusation that converts from Protestantism, whether to Orthodoxy or Catholicism, still have a "Protestant mindset" or are carrying "Protestant baggage," etc., is the favorite of insult used by Roman Catholics, former Roman Catholics, and cradle Orthodox against such converts.

IMHO, it is utterly bogus.

It is just as utterly bogus as:

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That is why they are so despised by the lukewarm and complacent, who, snug in their cradles, infect the Church with the worldly mindset and mistake it for "Catholic culture" or "the Eastern way of thinking."

Not every convert brings with them their Protestant baggage, and not every cradle Orthodox is this lukewarm, feelgood, liberal, "(insert ethnicity) or Death!" type. It's ridiculous for cradle Orthodox to regard sincere converts with disdain, since they (the converts) are the result of the Church's apostolic mission to all nations. It is also ridiculous, however, for converts to Orthodoxy to regard those cradle Orthodox who, regardless of their outer dispositions in church, have preserved Orthodoxy for them to discover and embrace at the eleventh hour with similar disdain.

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Mor Ephrem: Not every convert brings with them their Protestant baggage, and not every cradle Orthodox is this lukewarm, feelgood, liberal, "(insert ethnicity) or Death!" type. It's ridiculous for cradle Orthodox to regard sincere converts with disdain, since they (the converts) are the result of the Church's apostolic mission to all nations. It is also ridiculous, however, for converts to Orthodoxy to regard those cradle Orthodox who, regardless of their outer dispositions in church, have preserved Orthodoxy for them to discover and embrace at the eleventh hour with similar disdain.

Please read my post again.

You will find that NOWHERE does it accuse ALL cradle whatevers of being lukewarm or complacent.

It refers to those who despise converts for their zeal, not to all cradle Orthodox or cradle Catholics.

If you are going to address yourself to something I posted, it would be nice if it was something I actually posted.

BTW, if you follow very many of these threads, you will find that complaints against converts from Protestantism crop up pretty regularly, especially when those who make such complaints run out of anything substantive to say.

What I posted I posted against that background and not in a vacuum.

And, again, I, unlike those who complain about converts, did not generalize and say that ALL cradle Orthodox are one thing or another.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2004, 10:26:36 AM by Linus7 »

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The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.- Pope St. Hormisdas

Yes, as you have guessed, I am joking. But by not voting will this altimately change things? I dont think so. All politics are local as I mentioned before. I feel it is very important to get involved in your township, county, borough, and state politics. It all starts there. We can make a difference because folks at this level will eventually rise to the national level. By the time politicians reach the national level their beliefs are pretty well set in stone. I hope I havent over simplified this need to get involved.

I think you're probably joking but sometimes I sense a kind of 'isolationist' attitude amongst 'conservative' christians which sometimes extends to 'boycotting' an election.

I see the appeal and have considered not voting in the upcoming election myself. However, if we remove ourselves entirely from the political process do things get worse?

Plus I think that we avoid at all costs 'isolationism.' I see 'isolationism' as a bad tendency amongst 'conservative' christians. 'Liberals' have their bad tendencies and we have ours. One way we can fight against that tendency is to not isolate ourselves from the political process.

But on the other hand, by participating in the process we support candidates who are 'heretical' and 'anti-life.'

You will find that NOWHERE does it accuse ALL cradle whatevers of being lukewarm or complacent.

It refers to those who despise converts for their zeal, not to all cradle Orthodox or cradle Catholics.

If you are going to address yourself to something I posted, it would be nice if it was something I actually posted.

Dear Linus,

You should re-read what I wrote to you, my friend. The only place I used "all" was in the phrase "all nations". Nowhere did I say that all converts or all cradles are this way or that. It is you who have read that into what I wrote.

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BTW, if you follow very many of these threads, you will find that complaints against converts from Protestantism crop up pretty regularly, especially when those who make such complaints run out of anything substantive to say.

What I posted I posted against that background and not in a vacuum.

And, again, I, unlike those who complain about converts, did not generalize and say that ALL cradle Orthodox are one thing or another.

Yes, I know you did not say that; please read what I wrote above and further above in this thread carefully.

And yes, I know that such complaints against converts regularly come up, but complaints against cradles also regularly come up, perhaps moreso than complaints of the former kind; unfortunately, it is not deemed to be so bad when the subject of ridicule/scorn/whatever is cradle Orthodox (that's the impression I get, anyway), probably because most of the population on Orthodox fora is composed of converts.

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"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet. He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants. But he really isn't around anymore.

I have never seen a complaint against cradles that wasn't prompted by some remark about converts and their on-going "Protestantism." For some it's a regular thing, especially when they run out of arguments.

It's very discouraging.

In fact, had I encountered it before I converted, I might have thought twice about it.

It gives the impression that Orthodoxy is merely the product of tribalism, an ethnic rather than a universal religion.

The whole recurring "cradle vs. convert" thing is double-plus ungood.

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The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.- Pope St. Hormisdas

I have never seen a complaint against cradles that wasn't prompted by some remark about converts and their on-going "Protestantism." For some it's a regular thing, especially when they run out of arguments.

I've seen them pop up more often than you have, it seems. I would venture to guess that, while converts pay attention to cracks against cradles when they are made after cradles issue cracks against converts, they probably do not pay attention to such things when there isn't any direct instigation...instead, it is implicitly received by the general readership (again, full of converts) as "the way it is".

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"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet. He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants. But he really isn't around anymore.