On the Nyingma kama thread, Yudron mentioned that the claims that there were masters who practised Dzogchen without any deity are false. This is definitely true for probably all the masters we know anything about, i have heard however that Kumaradza apparently did practise "pure" Dzogchen without deity yoga and that was a reason Longchenpa went to him instead of the Third Karmapa to learn.

AFAIK Longchenpa definetly received Dzogchen teachings with and from Rangjung Dorje, including RD's Karma Nyingthig Terma, which is sometimes included with the Nyingthig Yabzhi...and Rangjung Dorje was also a student of Rigdzin Kumaradza....there's a teaching by Thrangu Rinpoche somewhere if you can find it.

Sherlock wrote:On the Nyingma kama thread, Yudron mentioned that the claims that there were masters who practised Dzogchen without any deity are false. This is definitely true for probably all the masters we know anything about, i have heard however that Kumaradza apparently did practise "pure" Dzogchen without deity yoga and that was a reason Longchenpa went to him instead of the Third Karmapa to learn.

Anyway I am just mentioning what I heard I don't mean any conflict.

Adzom Drukpa famously said he just practiced Dzogchen all his life, but he is also famous for having students who underwent great hardship doing many multiple ngondros and repeating the Dzogchen ngondro again and again for decades. So, I don't really know what he actually meant when he said he just practiced Dzogchen.

In my own life, I read the namthars of Mahasiddhas of the past and try to measure my life by their standards. What practices did they do? How did they live? I personally prefer the namthars of the great adepts of the more recent yogis and yoginis, because I feel confident that scribes have not added in embellishments over the centuries. Of course I always come up short, but it inspires me a lot to keep practicing diligently. Ultimately, though, I have to find what is uniquely suited to this body and personality that I carry around with me during this short life.

It is not uncommon among the householder students of mainstream Nyingma lamas to just do trekchod/guru yoga after they finish their first ngondro, and perhaps go to a drupchen or other intensive retreat on a deity practice once a year.

Sherlock wrote:On the Nyingma kama thread, Yudron mentioned that the claims that there were masters who practised Dzogchen without any deity are false. This is definitely true for probably all the masters we know anything about, i have heard however that Kumaradza apparently did practise "pure" Dzogchen without deity yoga and that was a reason Longchenpa went to him instead of the Third Karmapa to learn.

Anyway I am just mentioning what I heard I don't mean any conflict.

Who told you that Kumardza did practise "pure" Dzogchen? The reason I ask is that deity practice is found both in the Vima Nyingthig and the Kandro Nyinthig and also in the Longde transmission. But I think you know this, no?

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Lemme just start by saying this is in no way some sort of passive aggressive dig at the OP or anyone else; this is just where I'm at these days. I'm just no longer interested in trying to condition people not to indulge in this idea and pursuit of "pure Dzogchen" practice. If they feel that works for them, then more power to em. I'll just keep doing my own thing, integrating all three inner tantras in the way I've been taught by my root lamas and which works for me, without being compelled to feel I'm "the one who's right" and they're "the ones who are wrong." Hopefully this perspective will eventually bleed into the rest of my opinions in life and I can stop being so concerned with being right in general.

But as I go on, the distinction between the three inner tantras just seems less and less concrete and real (from the perspective of integrating everything into the Dzogchen view). Sure, classifying them according to their unique features, approaches, and emphasis from their own side makes total sense from the point of view of exegesis... But eventually, from the experiential practice standpoint, it's my opinion that if we're diligent and end up hitting the mark in our Dzogchen practice, we'll all be practicing "pure Dzogchen" whether we're only doing guru yoga and the practices or Dzogchen proper or we're doing those and daily generation/completion stage sadhana, etc. too. This is, again, my opinion.

I fled Him, down the nights and down the days; I fled Him, down the arches of the years; I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways, Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears, I hid from Him, and under running laughter. Up vistaed hopes I sped; And shot, precipitated, Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears, From those strong Feet that followed, followed after. But with unhurrying chase, And unperturbèd pace, Deliberate speed, majestic instancy, They beat - and a Voice beat - More instant than the Feet - ‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’

I was just chatting with a scholar who is very fluent in Tibetan about Garab Dorje. Garab Dorje authored two texts in the Tengyur. The first is a Manjushri Namasangiti commentary that is full on Dzogchen without using the word. Apparently it is really interesting.

He also wrote a sadhana called nod jyin gyi gyalpo drup pa'i thab -- which I guess I would translated as the Means of Accomplishment of the Yaksha King. It's in the Tengyur, too.

Vimalamitra apparently also wrote a commentary on the Manjushri Namasangiti-- that is not quite as Dzogchen flavored as the one by Garab Dorje, but in places uses a dzogchen approach replete with standard phrases from the Menagde, but again does not use the word Dzogchen.

I don't think there is a single Vajrayana practitioner alive this day who has never done a deity practice, so this is just purely theoretical. I heard the story from a fairly famous published translator, but I don't know which namthar he was referring to. In Nyoshul Khenpo's A Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems, it is written that Kumaradza did actually practise some deity yogas at least when he was younger. Maybe he was referring to a portion corresponding to this excerpt in another namthar:

At that time, the definitive points of the Nyingtik teachings had been diluted by the intellectual faults of various teachers. Kumaradza clearly distinguished himself from those who behaved erroneously by blurring the distinction between these points and the view and meditation of the Mahamudra approach, the Zhije school, the Six Techniques of Union of the Kalachakra cycle, and so forth.

Even the notion of "pure Dzogchen" is one more intellectual fabrication of the human mind, which implies and includes the existence of "non pure", hence more "Dzogchenistic dualism". Even if we are talking about totally Enlightened Buddhas, Mahamudra or Dzogchen, essentially dualism has always the same bitter taste.

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

Just as an observation; I don't know if it means anything, but it made an impact on me; I noticed Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche's mala when I first meet him, then a year later, what seemed to be that same bodhiseed mala was much more worn than usual, leading me to reflect he wasn't just doing "pure" dzogchen practice, but a lot of recitations. (just my own observation and reflection... don't know if it has any meaning at all)

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

My impression is, take it or leave it, that a lot of these great lineage holder enlightened beings practice Vajrasattva until the end of their lives. Dilgo Khyentse's namthar mentions his ongoing practice on Mindroling Vajrasattva, and I know other great lamas who continued VS practice to the end, although for some it might be one mala of the short mantra or 21 100 syllable mantras.

Yudron wrote:My impression is, take it or leave it, that a lot of these great lineage holder enlightened beings practice Vajrasattva until the end of their lives. Dilgo Khyentse's namthar mentions his ongoing practice on Mindroling Vajrasattva, and I know other great lamas who continued VS practice to the end, although for some it might be one mala of the short mantra or 21 100 syllable mantras.

Vajrasattva has been with the Dzogchen lineages from the beginning.

HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche did a lot of daily practices and annual retreats. I was told he'd do his dzogchen practices before dawn and around dawn. If you were fortunate enough to sit with him during his morning practices he would have quite a large sadhana collection and a variety of malas he would use and interchange. He would also not speak with anyone until he finished all these practices, usually late morning. Didn't matter which tulku came into the room and spoke with him, he wouldn't speak until he'd finished his morning practices. He'd also do annual retreats and drupchens on Kalachakra, etc, etc. The extensive Dharmapala practices on the 29th would take around 5 hours, and Shechen Rabjam Rinpoche and other tulkus could recite all these by heart, they wouldn't refer to the texts.

IMHO He didn't do these practices out of personal need or requirement, but to pass on the maximum blessings to others and to fulfil his activity.

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

Yeti wrote:IMHO He didn't do these practices out of personal need or requirement, but to pass on the maximum blessings to others and to fulfil his activity.

I think that depends on what you mean with "personal need". For example ChNNR says he would not be alive today if he didn't do Mandarava practice. His death would be very bad for his students. So what was beneficial for Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche certainly benefited infinite other sentient beings as well.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Yeti wrote:IMHO He didn't do these practices out of personal need or requirement, but to pass on the maximum blessings to others and to fulfil his activity.

I think that depends on what you mean with "personal need". For example ChNNR says he would not be alive today if he didn't do Mandarava practice. His death would be very bad for his students. So what was beneficial for Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche certainly benefited infinite other sentient beings as well.

/magnus

I don't dispute that at all.

But, for instance, Guru Rinpoche did heaps of retreats and practices. He didn't need too. He didn't hang out in villages, but regardless of his attainment, he kept on practising in retreat. I don't think he needed to do those practices at all, but they were done to conscecrate them further, for our benefit IMHO (could be wrong). AFAIK it was all done to bless the practices that where transmitted. I'd put the 60 odd years Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche spent in retreat, of which 35 years was spent on the Nyingthik Yabshi into that category too.

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

Yeti wrote:IMHO He didn't do these practices out of personal need or requirement, but to pass on the maximum blessings to others and to fulfil his activity.

I think that depends on what you mean with "personal need". For example ChNNR says he would not be alive today if he didn't do Mandarava practice. His death would be very bad for his students. So what was beneficial for Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche certainly benefited infinite other sentient beings as well.

/magnus

I don't dispute that at all.

But, for instance, Guru Rinpoche did heaps of retreats and practices. He didn't need too. He didn't hang out in villages, but regardless of his attainment, he kept on practising in retreat. I don't think he needed to do those practices at all, but they were done to conscecrate them further, for our benefit IMHO (could be wrong). AFAIK it was all done to bless the practices that where transmitted. I'd put the 60 odd years Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche spent in retreat, of which 35 years was spent on the Nyingthik Yabshi into that category too.

My only point was that at their level of attainment the line between "personal need" and "for the benefit of all sentient beings" becomes a little hazy. If we are serious about this path it goes on until we die, no vacations.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

heart wrote:My only point was that at their level of attainment the line between "personal need" and "for the benefit of all sentient beings" becomes a little hazy. If we are serious about this path it goes on until we die, no vacations.

/magnus

There is no separation in between "me" and "others" for the Awakened Ones.

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~