If their is no ending or beginning then does it exist ? A circle at one time did have a starting point and an end point either-wise it would
not have ever been a circle?

Not if it expands from a minute point. Kinda like the Big Bang - something can conceivably come from nothing if that nothing is something that's just
far too subtle for our methods.

A circle you can also see and touch, but can you see and touch a divine principle? So if the divine principle never had a beginning or an
ending and you can't see, touch, or communicate with it does it exist?

Can you or touch the Pythagorean theorem? No, but you have a physical representation that demonstrates such a principle. Who says to have no beginning
and no end is not an existence? If the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end, then it's a perpetual state of motion that lasts forever.
If you must, add the pairs together - they cancel out! Quite literally, you are left with only the "middle". A constant state of "middle".

To be technical, "never ending and never beginning" is just a fancy term for "immortality", the exact opposite of nonexistence.

edit on
6-12-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Interesting , I will give you this. At present time Physics says that energy can't be created nor destroyed which could be translated into meaning
that we have a finite amount of energy in existence. In addition if can't be created nor destroyed then it would also lead too indicate as you say ,
no beginning and no ending.

However, our understanding of the laws of Physics has been proven wrong in the past and enhanced as we continue to expand our knowledge . In addition
the big bang is just a theory (well accepted, but still a theory) but it also accepts that prior to the big bang the universe already existed , so it
had a start did it not? Hence it exists?

Perhaps its more accurate to say that in order to exist something must have at minimum a beginning. Which could allow for immortality to exist.

If it had no beginning how could you have A constant state of "middle"? Even the Big Bang had a beginning and I'm sure as our technology and
knowledge continues to expand we will also continue to look further back into infinite beginnings. However, just because we can't pin point the final
beginning doesn't mean there wasn't one.

I consider these What came first the chicken or the egg , or what is our existence discussions always fun to ponder.

I find it redundant that you're both taking such a speculative topic seriously. All we're doing is tossing ideas back and forth here, there's no
reason to get upset over someone else's creativity. If you do, then you're just jealous.

The one absolute truth - everything changes. EVERYTHING. That's my idea. If you want, you can take it from there.

So its not an absolute truth (fact) that , If you where born you will die?

An absolute truth, sometimes called a universal truth, is an unalterable and permanent fact. www.wisegeek.com...

Yet, you consider existence an absolute? Where were you before you existed and do you exist for infinity or do you consider you existence to
eventually end? Maybe you can clear it up for me on why existence is the only absolute?

edit on 6-12-2012 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)

Existence is the only experiential thing that precedes subjective definitions. It is definitions and only definitions that are capable of a falsehood.
Therefore, if you don't define, you cannot lie and your reality cannot be false. And when you are not defining, what are you? Nothing in particular,
but you definitely exist. When you start to attach a label to that and say, "I am_______", that blank spot will be the subjective part of your
sentence. The "I am" part is absolute.

Interesting , I will give you this. At present time Physics says that energy can't be created nor destroyed which could be translated into
meaning that we have a finite amount of energy in existence. In addition if can't be created nor destroyed then it would also lead too indicate as
you say , no beginning and no ending.

Ah! You begin to touch on the traces of intelligence. The traces that tell me there's a little more than dumb animal instincts buried in the coding
of the divine principle. Even as something is dying, something else is filling a place that is needed, always keeping the universe in balance by
always replacing that which is ended. And if something begins, something else dissolves in preparation for the next stage of its existence.

What else, what other inanimate force, can organize such a complicated system over such a vast space? It is not simple, nor easy, to run a game like
that. If chaos plays as heavy a role as traditional atheists seem to believe, then that system should have collapsed billions of years ago. In fact,
it should have collapsed halfway through the Roman empire or something.

And yet we continue to grow, despite the chaos. Doesn't that imply some sort of support, some sort of aid?

I consider these What came first the chicken or the egg , or what is our existence discussions always fun to ponder.

If one decides a question has no good answer, he has not thought about it long enough. Maybe, one day, we will know which came first. Or perhaps,
we'll learn that the answer isn't what it seems. Maybe, the answer is acceptance. Acceptance that we may never know, and that if we're going to, we
eventually will.

Interesting , I will give you this. At present time Physics says that energy can't be created nor destroyed which could be translated into
meaning that we have a finite amount of energy in existence. In addition if can't be created nor destroyed then it would also lead too indicate as you
say , no beginning and no ending.

Maybe we can argue about that too.

No need, a couple of post above someone said that absolute truth is that everything changes. So I just have to wait long enough and you will come
around to my views.

But I guess that would mean that I would eventually also come around to your views so in essence we will always argue, but nothing is forever so then
we will agree.

In actuality I do agree with you in the following:

Acceptance that we may never know, and that if we're going to, we eventually will.

I find it redundant that you're both taking such a speculative topic seriously. All we're doing is tossing ideas back and forth here, there's no
reason to get upset over someone else's creativity. If you do, then you're just jealous.

The one absolute truth - everything changes. EVERYTHING. That's my idea. If you want, you can take it from there.

Hey that's pretty fancy you chewed us both out at the same time.

How'd you pull that off ?
Oh Got it never mind.

Besides all that I feel you owe me an apology . Get'in all crazy in the middle of a perfectly good conversation between us isn't cool AI. It's down
right rude. And I can't see why I would ever carry on with you again if that's how you're going to be. I'm not gonna be pushed around by you man. I
thought you'd figure that out by now ?

If I wanted to be all nit picky about how I use my words like you're being, I would tell you that it is incorrect to say, "farther". The correct
word would be, "further". But I'm not a douche bag so ill, "just watch". That way I can stick to the topic at hand.

If I wanted to be all nit picky about how I use my words like you're being, I would tell you that it is incorrect to say, "farther". The correct word
would be, "further". But I'm not a douche bag so ill, "just watch". That way I can stick to the topic at hand.

Words hide the truth.

If i were to nit pick - i would say you had to comment and couldn't just watch without nit picking.

I find it redundant that you're both taking such a speculative topic seriously. All we're doing is tossing ideas back and forth here, there's no
reason to get upset over someone else's creativity. If you do, then you're just jealous.

The one absolute truth - everything changes. EVERYTHING. That's my idea. If you want, you can take it from there.

Does a hydrogen atom flung out into the FURTHEST reach of the universe beyond any possibility of being affected by external gravitational forces
change? You might could say, "it changes because the electrons are always moving.", but then I would say, "no it stays the same because I was
including the movement as its regular pattern of behavior as the constant within its definition." At that point, we will have to come up with a
definition of what exactly change is. And at that point, we would each be arguing about our own subjective interpretation of change. So what
constitutes change?

Is it movement? Transformation?

Keep in mind, the term, "subjective" only applies to experiencers. The absolute would be that which can be verified as true from all viewpoints. So
are you sure that all experiencers experience something called, "change"? I am not sure, but I do know that all experiencers experience existing.

If I wanted to be all nit picky about how I use my words like you're being, I would tell you that it is incorrect to say, "farther". The correct
word would be, "further". But I'm not a douche bag so ill, "just watch". That way I can stick to the topic at hand.

Words hide the truth.

If i were to nit pick - i would say you had to comment and couldn't just watch without nit picking.

edit on 6-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because:
(no reason given)

I would say you are right. Everyone has their opinions. To me, randyvs got on my thread acting like a douche bag.
You might have seen it differently.

You might say, and I would agree, that randyvs is, in an absolute sense, just this, but you know as well as I do that somewhere inside you, you have
made a judgement.

Tut tut- no name calling please. We are adults here and can word our replies without stooping to such things. This is an interesting thread and I
would hate to see it turn into a schoolyard game of "sticks and stones".

Well at least I never thought to start sling'in muddied up words like douche-bag around and never thought of you as one in the first place. Sheesh a
lil criticism goes along way on your feelings huh ? Sorry about that chief.
BTW in case you didn't know once you post a thread to ATS it's no longer your thread. It becomes the property of ATS and it's members all. So don't be
so possessive.

So its not an absolute truth (fact) that , If you where born you will die?

An absolute truth, sometimes called a universal truth, is an unalterable and permanent fact. www.wisegeek.com...

Yet, you consider existence an absolute? Where were you before you existed and do you exist for infinity or do you consider you existence to
eventually end? Maybe you can clear it up for me on why existence is the only absolute?

edit on 6-12-2012 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)

Existence is the only experiential thing that precedes subjective definitions. It is definitions and only definitions that are capable of a falsehood.
Therefore, if you don't define, you cannot lie and your reality cannot be false. And when you are not defining, what are you? Nothing in particular,
but you definitely exist. When you start to attach a label to that and say, "I am_______", that blank spot will be the subjective part of your
sentence. The "I am" part is absolute.

edit on 6-12-2012 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)

So your trying to make the point that I think therefore I am?

I think, therefore I am, but I am not what I think I am. I am not what you think I am. I am not what the scared kitty cat that I want to pet but
can't thinks I am. I just am because I am. However, my definitions of what I and you are will make me see with that lens. And definitions, I believe,
are inescapable, so perhaps they should be utilized, but nevertheless, my version of the truth will remain subjective, and therefore false. We are all
living a lie, but aren't we supposed to? Life in a body can't live any other way. So what do we do? Sure we can, "just watch", but we will never
see anything except what humans were made to see. Or will we?

I once considered a scenario where the human mind would begin to take others perspectives into consideration to such a great extent that we experience
the world through the eyes of all. I saw this as compassion, and the next step in human consciousness. We would know what it's like to be a lion or a
spider. In fact, I had a dream last night that I was being chased by two lions who later I found out were really humans. Anyway... If this scenario
actually played out, we would be ready for contact with beings from other planets who might be extremely different than us. Then, we would be on a
virtually endless journey of getting to know what the universe was really capable of in terms of subjective configurations of others. All in all, this
would greatly increase our understanding of what exactly life was.

But would we not arrive at the same conclusion? Life is what we say it is and other than that, it just is? Or is that a primitive explanation? Maybe
there is an absolute definition but we are far to primitive to get it right or even come close? That would at least explain why we try to define the
world in the first place.

When people have near death experiences, they go to a place where there is a light that feels overwhelmingly loving, yet is indescribable. Maybe
that's it. In either case, words cannot define the absolute. The absolute can only be experienced.

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