Playing the sexist card with Janeway is just petty at best and an attempt to shift the subject away from Janeway's character flaws.

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I'd say there are a couple of flaws with that contention, one of them being that the bulk of that paragraph you're replying to is about Janeway's character flaws regardless of mentioning sexism. But I don't want to threadjack this into Janeway conversation and you can bracket out the mention of sexism if you like, it's peripheral to the main point.

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I'd say the flaw was you bringing it up to begin with. It's a faulty conclusion and diminishes yourself and your argument.

I've been watching "Anomaly" over the past week, while going through the episodes in sequence for reviews, and Archer really becomes a more determined figure compared to his happy-go-lucky guy in the first two seasons. The character really begins to change now that he doesn't have Starfleet propping him up anymore. It's more of a change in how Archer is written than Bakula's performance. But I still think some of Scott's best work were those little things he'd invent with silent reactions, like when Malcolm's bemoaning the need for Epsom salts to soak his aching feet.

You threw out the questionable comment of sexism, sir. But keep pointing that finger.

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Um, no the comment wasn't "questionable" at all and yes, I'm actually really saying that if you want to have an argument about it, I will. Just not on this thread. I'm all for arguments, love 'em to pieces, I just don't want to threadjack. If it's important enough to you to start a new thread and hash it out in detail, I will go to that thread and we will do that.

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I think it's the responsibility of the writers to write for the actors they have. They knew what they had, and Scott in his element is very good I think.

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No, I don't think so. Some producers might choose to do that but it isn't etched in stone that they have to. In retrospect it would have been better fo Ent if they had written Archer in a way that would have been easier for for Scott to play. But looking back even further, if they had no desire to ever "customize" Archer, then Scott probably should never have been cast in the first place.

Having a character that lacked the complex backstory and purpose of Archer did not put Trinneer into a disadventageous situation. It helps an actor to have the room to put their own input into the character, to actually contribute to the process of characterization, as well as to let the character grow organically as stories evolve. That's not to say that Trip was uninteresting, but he had space to evolve and be himself. Too much was predetermined about Archer, and worse, he never was allowed to just be himself. He had to represent 100 years of disappointments that were not his own.

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You're saying that our knowing too much about Archer somehow kept Scott from making Archer as good a character as Trinneer made Trip? Please explain. Just because we know a lot about a character doesn't keep an actor from making the most of the role.

Now, we've seen Bakula succeed in a roll in which he had much more leeway. On Quantum Leap, his character was forced to adapt to new situations and new personalities. He kept his moral core, but Beckett was never completely himself. That situation is much more analogous to Trip than to Archer. On the other hand, I've never seen Trinneer take on a roll as complex as Archer.

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Please keep in mind that my argument isn't tthat Scott is not a good actor (not saying he is, or isn't). My point is that he was wrong for Archer.

Like Yanks writes, there are some things that Bakula doesn't do well. Archer was indignant a lot of the time. Bakula doesn't do self-centered very well--no one will mistaken him with Tom Cruise--so often he appeared petty.

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Add comedic acting to the list. Scott had lots of trouble when Archer was supposed to be amusing. The weird scene in Babel in the mess hall with Trip; that was supposed to be funny. The trip to the fast food joint in Carpenter Street (an episode I personally love) could have been much funnier with a different actor but fell flat, the sick bay scene with Archer, Trip, and Phlox, in Bound, and pretty much all of his scenes in ANiS. When I wrote the thing about Nathan Fillion as Archer, I was thinking of ANiS in particular. With Fillion, that episode would not get the amount of derision from the fans as it currently receives.

I think there is a great deal of revisionist history going on. In the first two seasons, you would very often hear Trip being referred to as a hick (with criticisms of his attitude and his accent). As the series went on, and the writers more clearly defined his character (as opposed to generic character traits), and with the added emotional investment of the Shipper Wars, Trip eventually emerged as a fan favorite. (It's one of the reasons why TATV is so angry-making: the TATV-Trip didn't have any of the growth that Seasons-3-and-4-Trip demonstrated.) But his early incarnation was sometimes as superficially written as Archer's was, and he was not universally well-liked at the beginning of the series, either.

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What revisionist history? After season 1, Trip was most fans favorite character by far. That surprised me because at the time, I was one of the ones who didn't like him. But as time went on, he grew on me. But for most fans, from what I recall here and on other Trek sites back then, he was the favorite character practically from the start.

As for the shipper wars, I really think that if Scott had handled Archer better, there may not have been the animosity there was. Lets put a much more capable actor in the role of Archer, again, like Nathan Fillion, and the battle between the T/Ters and ATPers cuts way down or ends, IMO.

You're saying that our knowing too much about Archer somehow kept Scott from making Archer as good a character as Trinneer made Trip? Please explain. Just because we know a lot about a character doesn't keep an actor from making the most of the role.

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No, I'm not.

Having numerous complex, often conflicting, motivations hampers the ability of the actor to make decisions about portraying a character. The more demands placed on the actor, the more likely the performance will be unsatisfactory. That says nothing about the specific complexities of the Archer character, his family history with the Vulcans and the disappointments of his father, his frustration with the hostility he encounters in space, the distrust he receives from his own commanders, etc.

However, if you think that a change of actor would make all the difference, tell us how well you think Connor Trinneer would do delivering Archer's most problematic scenes? How would he look expressing Archer's opinions about the Vulcans (what most posters here call Archer's racism)? How would he look better telling T'Pol he wanted to knock her on her ass? How charming would he be hemming and hawing about the Vulcan HC with Admiral Forrest on subspace? How about surrendering to Phlox over the treatment of the Valakians? Would he be more likable stealing the warp core in Xindi space?

You're saying that our knowing too much about Archer somehow kept Scott from making Archer as good a character as Trinneer made Trip? Please explain. Just because we know a lot about a character doesn't keep an actor from making the most of the role.

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No, I'm not.

Having numerous complex, often conflicting, motivations hampers the ability of the actor to make decisions about portraying a character. The more demands placed on the actor, the more likely the performance will be unsatisfactory.

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No, this is not true at all. Look at Edward James Olmos' Adama (if you're familiar with BSG). That character had way more conflicting motivations than Archer. It enhanced his performance. Most actors feel that the more conflicting things going on with the character, the better the role. Olmos is another actor who I've imagined as Archer. I used to compare the two quite a bit when BSG and Ent were in production. Actors want demanding roles where their character is pulled in several different directions at the same time. That is what creates great drama.

If you're talking about the often brought up week to week character changes to Archer, I say again, a better actor might not have liked the changes but would have still been able to credibly drag his character through those changes without sacrificing Archer's dignity (well, too much of his dignity) and audience respect.

Actors sometimes go on auditions and may several completly different characters in the same day or several different versions of the same character in one audition. Why would a professional actor not be able to handle week to week changes in his character's personality?

No, this is not true at all. Look at Edward James Olmos' Adama (if you're familiar with BSG). That character had way more conflicting motivations than Archer. It enhanced his performance. Most actors feel that the more conflicting things going on with the character, the better the role. Olmos is another actor who I've imagined as Archer. I used to compare the two quite a bit when BSG and Ent were in production. Actors want demanding roles where their character is pulled in several different directions at the same time. That is what creates great drama.

If you're talking about the often brought up week to week character changes to Archer, I say again, a better actor might not have liked the changes but would have still been able to credibly drag his character through those changes without sacrificing Archer's dignity (well, too much of his dignity) and audience respect.

Actors sometimes go on auditions and may several completly different characters in the same day or several different versions of the same character in one audition. Why would a professional actor not be able to handle week to week changes in his character's personality?

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You need not sell me on Olmos' abilities. Mijo did more acting in a coma that the rest of the BSG cast. Bakula and Trinneer can't hold a candle to Olmos.

However, his abilities are not germane to the question of Trinneer's ability to play the role of Archer as written.

However, his abilities are not germane to the question of Trinneer's ability to play the role of Archer as written.

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I didn't think the question about Trinneer's ability to play Archer was germane to the thread topic, that's why I didn't address it. I only brought up Olmos because he is an example of an actor who had no trouble with conflicts and contradictions in his character, something you stated was a problem for actors. I disagree with that contention.

However, his abilities are not germane to the question of Trinneer's ability to play the role of Archer as written.

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I didn't think the question about Trinneer's ability to play Archer was germane to the thread topic, that's why I didn't address it. I only brought up Olmos because he is an example of an actor who had no trouble with conflicts and contradictions in his character, something you stated was a problem for actors. I disagree with that contention.

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No, the thread is not about who would make a better Archer. However, it was you who introduced the notion that other actors did or could do significantly better with the same material (as if the fact that the characters were written by the same people made the characters somehow similar in their complexity). That makes relevant the question about how the specific actors you mentioned would improve upon the most problematic material. And I'm sure Olmos would have greatly improved Enterprise had he been cast as the captain--if the role were written around his acting strengths. As a lifetime fan of Olmos, I can confidently assume Berman and Braga would never have cast him, especially since the bulk of his work reflected an interest in ethnicity rather than adventure. Moreover, it would have significantly undermined the hero story they wanted to tell. Would Olmos have delivered the same dialogue better than Bakula? Considering Olmos almost never talked in his best scenes--Adama wasn't particularly well known for exposition--he probably would have looked silly playing Archer as written in Broken Bow. On the other hand, had the character been rewritten to allow Olmos to bring more texture to the character, it would have been stellar. However, that would have required them to allow Olmos the space to do what he wanted with the character rather than overload it with dialogue, which is exactly what the writers did with Archer.

However, his abilities are not germane to the question of Trinneer's ability to play the role of Archer as written.

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I didn't think the question about Trinneer's ability to play Archer was germane to the thread topic, that's why I didn't address it. I only brought up Olmos because he is an example of an actor who had no trouble with conflicts and contradictions in his character, something you stated was a problem for actors. I disagree with that contention.

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However, it was you who introduced the notion that other actors did or could do significantly better with the same material (as if the fact that the characters were written by the same people made the characters somehow similar in their complexity).

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But when I brought up the other actors, the point I was trying to make was that just because Scott was unable to make his character consistently thrive with the way Archer was written, other actors were not so limited.

I wasn't saying that the characters were similar because they were writen by the same people. My point was that the writers wrote the other characters no better or worse than they wrote Archer. The difference was the actors playing the roles, not the writing.

Would Olmos have delivered the same dialogue better than Bakula? Considering Olmos almost never talked in his best scenes--Adama wasn't particularly well known for exposition--he probably would have looked silly playing Archer as written in Broken Bow.

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We disagree. This is the crux of my issues with Scott's interpretation of Archer. I think Olmos would have given that same dialogue a gravitas that Scott just doesn't possess the ability to to present -- so would Nathan Fillion. In the hands of the right actor, bad dialogue may still read like "bad" dialogue to the naked eye, but might "play" much differently. Just because Scott could not prevent his character from falling victim to the buffoonish nature of some of the Archer dialogue, does not mean a "better" actor would have that same limitation.

On the other hand, had the character been rewritten to allow Olmos to bring more texture to the character, it would have been stellar.

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I don't think Olmos is the kind of actor who has to have his character's dialogue tailored to fit within his acting limits in order to create a good characterization. He is better than that. What you are talking about here is a directorial/actor function rather than a writer function.

However, that would have required them to allow Olmos the space to do what he wanted with the character rather than overload it with dialogue, which is exactly what the writers did with Archer.

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Finally, we agree on something -- I think. I wrote further upthread, (and have been writing about this issue for some time) that one of the problems with Scott's performance of Archer was that he was given way too much dialogue which he could not handle. With his lack of charisma and presence, they could maybe have manufactured some of this by having Scott simply remain somewhat quiet and then "finally" delivering his line. They could also have built up a bit of tension this way. I think Scott as "the quiet man" would have worked better.

Of course, this also goes back to my issue, that Scott is the kind of actor who requires tailored writing.

Seriously, what kind of jackass creates a lead character -- especially one who would be speaking on behalf of humanity during the series -- and present him as a bigot toward alien species in the opening scenes of the premiere?

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The jackasses are the Vulcans, and not the writers; apparently, everybody forgot how Vulcans regarded humans on TOS, and so they also forgot how Spock and McCoy's rivalry started. I didn't, and so therefore, I had no problem with Enterprise in that regard.

Amazing how Enterprise got higher ratings in repeats on SyFy over BSG...

Look at the script for Strange New World, the second regular episode of Enterprise. Archer has just over 1200 words of dialogue. In Water, the second regular episode of BSG, Adama has around 560 words. That's writing. Moreover, you can compare the dialogue for yourself to see just how predetermined Bakula's acting choices were. If you like, you can read Archer's dialogue in Olmos voice: it would probably add 30 minutes to the episode.

Look at the script for Strange New World, the second regular episode of Enterprise. Archer has just over 1200 words of dialogue. In Water, the second regular episode of BSG, Adama has around 560 words. That's writing.

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I don't get your point, here. Can you clarify?

Moreover, you can compare the dialogue for yourself to see just how predetermined Bakula's acting choices were. If you like, you can read Archer's dialogue in Olmos voice: it would probably add 30 minutes to the episode.

One of my least favorite Archer moments was when after 3 seasons of him getting his ass kicked they have him win the one fight he should of lost against Shran. Instead of Shran losing an antennae the fight should have ended with Archer losing an eye.

One thing that isn't always clear about Star Trek during the Berman years, is the written word on the page is sacrosanct. Actors were rarely allowed to rephrase the dialogue into something more natural for them, or easier to say. Often a writer or Berman himself would have to come down to approve it.

One of my least favorite Archer moments was when after 3 seasons of him getting his ass kicked they have him win the one fight he should of lost against Shran. Instead of Shran losing an antennae the fight should have ended with Archer losing an eye.

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His winning that fight actually made sense, though. He won by cunning and guile, not brute strength. Shran was going all out trying to kill Archer, because that's how the ushaan works and that's just the kind of guy Shran was. Archer found a loophole and did all he could to stay in the fight (I think it was pretty clear that Shran would have eventually killed Archer) until he could get into an advantageous position and disable Shran.