By the 12th century the ancient liturgies were completely destroyed and were replaced with the Melkite Byzantine court ceremonial of Constantinople. (Though the text and the most basic elements remained.) To see this all one has to do is compare the liturgies of the Oriental Orthodox Church with the the liturgies of the Byzantine Church! So anyways the differences in the EO are accidental drifts from the Court.

I teach an Orthopraxis class to catechumen and newly illumined in which I try to ocver the differences that enrich the Orthodox Churches here in the US. Many of us travel in our work or on vacation and will end up fellowshipping and worshipping in the various jurisdictions duirng that travel. I have found that sometimes new converts are shocked when they see the variation. My class helps prepare them for the richness of our various traditions. With these classes They frequently come back after a trip excited rather than, as in the past, shocked, due to that variety.

There is also a Sarum rite - a very different tradition of celebrating the Divine Liturgy, common in Western Rite Orthodox churches. The name "Sarum" is a toponym, the name of an ancient Roman colony close to what now is the city of Salisbury, England. Apparently, it came to the Holy Orthodoxy from Anglo-Catholic converts (one of them happens to be my parish priest).

By the 12th century the ancient liturgies were completely destroyed and were replaced with the Melkite Byzantine court ceremonial of Constantinople. (Though the text and the most basic elements remained.) To see this all one has to do is compare the liturgies of the Oriental Orthodox Church with the the liturgies of the Byzantine Church! So anyways the differences in the EO are accidental drifts from the Court.

I'd love to make this comparison. How? Are any OO liturgies available on the Internet? Despite my interest to the point of considering visiting our local Armenian and Coptic churches, I always end up at my parish feeling that my curiosity is not a good excuse enough to miss our Divine Liturgy.

Αριστοκλής

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

There is also a Sarum rite - a very different tradition of celebrating the Divine Liturgy, common in Western Rite Orthodox churches. The name "Sarum" is a toponym, the name of an ancient Roman colony close to what now is the city of Salisbury, England. Apparently, it came to the Holy Orthodoxy from Anglo-Catholic converts (one of them happens to be my parish priest).

I'm afraid, George, that there are some EO who would say that any "western" rite such as Sarum has no place in EO at all. Then again, I've also read some people who maintained that *Only* Byzantine Chant was really EO and one person many years ago on a forum far far away wrote that it was the ONLY chanting the God heard prayers in.

Sigh. (I'm doing alot of that today.)

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Ebor, I know... I think it's sad that people are splitting hairs about things like "God hears ONLY THESE chants." Are they sure

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the reason why some "Western Rite" Orthodox churches use the Sarum rite is that they, consisting largely of recent converts from Anglo-Catholocism and Episcopalianism, simply do not have experience in Byzantine liturgical chanting. My priest says that he does not *particularly* care about singing "Lift up your hearts" and hearing us respond, "We lift them up unto the Lord" to the Sarum rite tune. He says that if, and when, we get enough people who can sing the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great, we might as well become "Eastern Rite."

Ebor, I know... I think it's sad that people are splitting hairs about things like "God hears ONLY THESE chants." Are they sure

I would say that the person I referred to was quite sure. He did not think that *any* "Western" music or Russian chant (influenced as it was by the Western harmony/polyphony) was worshipful. Only Byzantine Chant was worshipping and made people think about God, all other musics made them think of the human composers. (ByzChant as I recall him posting having been dictated or handed down directly from Heaven by angels). Meaning no disrespect, but as a matter of hearing and my own taste faulty as it may be, much ByzChant sounds to me as one EO priest said like "Calling the camels home". And I think that I have fairly catholic taste in music. I will gladly listen to Japanese music, Zulu singing, South American music, Chinese orchestras, British/American Folk, Classical and Baroque and Early Music and much more. And when I hear Christian music such as Bach or Vaughn Williams or others I *am* worshipping and not thinking about the composer. I just do not believe that *only* Byz Chant is acceptable to God. After all, He made all of the people and cultures and their urges to make music.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the reason why some "Western Rite" Orthodox churches use the Sarum rite is that they, consisting largely of recent converts from Anglo-Catholocism and Episcopalianism, simply do not have experience in Byzantine liturgical chanting.

I must preface this by reminding you that I am not WR nor EO but Anglican.

To be very frank, I think that for some the use of Sarum Rite, or the liturgy that St. Tikhon worked on from the Book of Common Prayer (the main book that Anglicans use) is that *that* is the way they worship, that is the way they know and the way that God has reached them. They are bringing their ways, as it were and yet being part of some EO jurisdiction.

I will also tell you that personally I have found myself unable to worship fully in a Byzantine liturgy. It is probably a character flaw on my part. But I am able to worship in an Anglican Service and feel the Presence of God and that there is the Church in ways that I have never felt in an EO service. I will also freely admit that some Episcopal guitar/happy-clappy services have been an exercise in worship in spite of the surroundings and spiritually gritted teeth.

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My priest says that he does not *particularly* care about singing "Lift up your hearts" and hearing us respond, "We lift them up unto the Lord" to the Sarum rite tune. He says that if, and when, we get enough people who can sing the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great, we might as well become "Eastern Rite."

And if that is the way that things go, there you are. There are some who maintain that WR is just for those who are too weak/immature/western to be "really" EO and that once they get better they will of course go Byzantine. Well what of those people who believe that they are worshiping God jus fine with Western Chant or other ways? I wonder would the reverse situation apply if a small Byzantine Liturgy parish got "enough people who can sing" the Western chant and liturgies would they "become Western Rite"? Just an idle thought.

As a side note: A Cradle EO person I know once told me that he thinks that eventually there will be an American Chant/setting for the EO liturgy from some kind of American musical roots, but it may not be for 200 years or more.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

As a side note: A Cradle EO person I know once told me that he thinks that eventually there will be an American Chant/setting for the EO liturgy from some kind of American musical roots, but it may not be for 200 years or more.

Ebor

IS OUTRAGE!

In 200 years both Greeks and Russians will be using Carpatho-Russian plainchant in English - everyone knows that...

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

I teach an Orthopraxis class to catechumen and newly illumined in which I try to ocver the differences that enrich the Orthodox Churches here in the US. Many of us travel in our work or on vacation and will end up fellowshipping and worshipping in the various jurisdictions duirng that travel. I have found that sometimes new converts are shocked when they see the variation. My class helps prepare them for the richness of our various traditions. With these classes They frequently come back after a trip excited rather than, as in the past, shocked, due to that variety.

I would love those notes. PM me if they aren't posted.

Thomas

I wouldn't mind going to that class when you have it again. Please let me know, OK?

As a side note: A Cradle EO person I know once told me that he thinks that eventually there will be an American Chant/setting for the EO liturgy from some kind of American musical roots, but it may not be for 200 years or more.

A friend in my parish has talked (jokingly) about writing a Country and Western setting of the Divine Liturgy.

I had a priest once who said that if we were to create a truely american chant format we should look to the appalachian and old style black gospel music which is sung without instrumentation, which has a chant format and often speaks to the soul. He cited the music in "O Brother Were Art Thou" as an example particularly the songs "Down to the River to Pray" and "Po Lazarus"

I don't know about the Aztecs, but there has been a resurgence of various Native American musics in recordings. It is not just one kind of music. Remember that each tribal group has it's own unique ways.