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On the money as usual, Jim!I've watched sessions in which the trainer opted to ignore the shopping. Sessions usually took at least twice as much time, and literally trained the dog to shop. Why would you do that when de-shopping takes so little time and effort?

Does it have long term effects? Sometimes yes/sometimes no. I tend to err on the side of "I can control being smart better than I can control being lucky", and simply train the dog. It's easy and much more fun to live with.

Evan

Like I say, I agree with both, and I can see applications for both approaches. Personally, I would not expect my own dogs to swap . I do regard that as a weakness in recall as I say. But you have to analyse the particular situation and particular dog, and adjust your approach accordingly. If you have a dog lacking in confidence and momentum, and you are using this drill to build that confidence and power, I would see it as slightly counterproductive to 'come down' on the dog for then swapping once it gets out there. When I have noted one of my clients dogs doing that, I've said 'okay, lets look at the swap issue separately', and I've given them exercises to then work on that, away from what we have just done, so it doesn't negate the dog's otherwise good work in powering out there.

Our piles aren't as big as yours LOL, so a dog going up and swapping between a couple of dummies really wouldn't make the training session any more than a couple of seconds longer.

On the money as usual, Jim!I've watched sessions in which the trainer opted to ignore the shopping. Sessions usually took at least twice as much time, and literally trained the dog to shop. Why would you do that when de-shopping takes so little time and effort?

Does it have long term effects? Sometimes yes/sometimes no. I tend to err on the side of "I can control being smart better than I can control being lucky", and simply train the dog. It's easy and much more fun to live with.

Evan

I view shopping in the same category as stopping to shake when they get out of the water....an unnecessary behavior in the whole process...Steve S

"Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

I view shopping in the same category as stopping to shake when they get out of the water....an unnecessary behavior in the whole process...Steve S

translated to trials here, swapping game is an eliminating fault, whereas just shaking without dropping would be ok. If the dog put the bird down to shake, that would also be an eliminating fault. So, you're quite right, neither are desirable!

Swapping birds is a crime here as well, Switching. But the 2 birds would not be very close together. In other words once a dog picked up a mark or a blind he would have to go well out of his way to grab a different bird.
As for dropping birds, dog may do so prior to delivery, no problem. However, if handler drops bird while taking it from the dog's mouth that's a different story.

Swapping birds is a crime here as well, Switching. But the 2 birds would not be very close together. In other words once a dog picked up a mark or a blind he would have to go well out of his way to grab a different bird.
As for dropping birds, dog may do so prior to delivery, no problem. However, if handler drops bird while taking it from the dog's mouth that's a different story.

Hmmm?...One Gal' who is best retriever this side of the Rio Grande', would choose a Partridge over a pheasant any day of the week! when 'Side by side'?..In fact ..I won many a money on that very same 'Trait'

Like I say, I agree with both, and I can see applications for both approaches. Personally, I would not expect my own dogs to swap . I do regard that as a weakness in recall as I say. But you have to analyse the particular situation and particular dog, and adjust your approach accordingly. If you have a dog lacking in confidence and momentum, and you are using this drill to build that confidence and power, I would see it as slightly counterproductive to 'come down' on the dog for then swapping once it gets out there. When I have noted one of my clients dogs doing that, I've said 'okay, lets look at the swap issue separately', and I've given them exercises to then work on that, away from what we have just done, so it doesn't negate the dog's otherwise good work in powering out there.

Our piles aren't as big as yours LOL, so a dog going up and swapping between a couple of dummies really wouldn't make the training session any more than a couple of seconds longer.

I like your take on this issue. What is the separate exercise that you recommend to clients to address shopping on its own?

In my case, my pup had no issue shopping with 3 or 4 bumpers in each pile, but now that we are on the 100 yd T with side piles at 50 to 75 yds with 5 bumpers each, she is now shopping. The distance is too far to use a rope and I don't use the ecollar. She will shop two or three bumpers VERY quickly before I can whistle her, at which time she come in.

I like the idea of doing a separate exercise to cure it, so as not to ruin the momentum and confuse the lesson during T work.

I like your take on this issue. What is the separate exercise that you recommend to clients to address shopping on its own?

In my case, my pup had no issue shopping with 3 or 4 bumpers in each pile, but now that we are on the 100 yd T with side piles at 50 to 75 yds with 5 bumpers each, she is now shopping. The distance is too far to use a rope and I don't use the ecollar. She will shop two or three bumpers VERY quickly before I can whistle her, at which time she come in.

I like the idea of doing a separate exercise to cure it, so as not to ruin the momentum and confuse the lesson during T work.

Thanks,
Jennifer

Get 150 FT ROPE....Go back and aggravate the situation until you do using a single pile...Put the bumpers in a stack like a pyramid..and see what happens...Create the problem so you can fix it ....I drop a dozen at a time in a 3 foot square when doing pile dills...Let them fall as they will...It sounds like you avoided the problem by just using 3 and spaced so the temptation was not so great to cause the behavior to show up...Steve S

"Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

Get 150 FT ROPE....Go back and aggravate the situation until you do using a single pile...Put the bumpers in a stack like a pyramid..and see what happens...Create the problem so you can fix it ....I drop a dozen at a time in a 3 foot square when doing pile dills...Let them fall as they will...It sounds like you avoided the problem by just using 3 and spaced so the temptation was not so great to cause the behavior to show up...Steve S