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Topic: ESA leading us back to the Moon (Read 64627 times)

The scantily outlined details for getting to the moon seem to involve heavy collaboration with the United States. The article implies Europeans on Orion (which was probable anyway if the flight rate gets up).

NASA seems to be hell-bent on doing flags and footprints on Mars instead of a sustained human presence on the Moon, so good luck with that.

The bit I have seen I like. It looks like primarily cooperating on a (presumably high) lunar orbit outpost (which ties in nicely with ARM), then things like teleoperation and robotic sample return, with human access an eventual goal.

Current considerations and conceptual work reflectedin the ISECG Global Exploration Roadmap foresee thedevelopment of a staging post in the lunar vicinity.Such a staging post advances lunar surface explorationcapabilities and deep space exploration. It opensup options for innovative approaches and missionscenarios for lunar exploration, such as humanassistedrobotic surface operations (e.g. tele-operationsof automated lunar surface infrastructures), as well asrefurbishment of re-usable lunar lander.

The scantily outlined details for getting to the moon seem to involve heavy collaboration with the United States. The article implies Europeans on Orion (which was probable anyway if the flight rate gets up).

If I was inside NASA and believed in Moon first and not the administrations declared, but largely unfunded, Mars goal I'd ask my friends in ESA to put their intentions out there.

Moon first is the only thing that makes sense in timeframe, available technology and current funding.

Much the technology needed already exists in industry, including launch vehicles. NASA and partners should contract for those items needed. Provide a performance requirement and let the creative minds of industry present solutions. Items like tugs, fuel depots, ISRU technology can all come from industry.

As for doing it without the U.S. And partnering with Russia. That's an idea doomed to fail. Russis is already having problems maintaining their capabilities. Once SpaceX guts their commercial launches and the U.S. Can launch crews domestically and Russia losses that funding I expect to see their launch industry to have ever more problems. The only thing that saves Russia space capability is a better government.

The moon will be first and it's going to happen after the ISS. Thank you ESA for advancing the conversation.

"The European development of the service module forNASA’s Orion crew transportation vehicle togetherwith the development of an international lunar landingcapability with Roscosmos provides a sustained role forESA in such architecture."[my emphasis]

This is the first I've heard of this co-development of a lunar-lander with Roscosmos. Is this an aspiration or a funded activity?

This is the first I've heard of this co-development of a lunar-lander with Roscosmos. Is this an aspiration or a funded activity?

I'd say notional. The media (and far before that, we) would be all over that if there was anything substantial there.

Anybody who follows ESA a little closer have an opinion (or evidence) on that?

Reboot of the German lunar lander initiative that got bumped at the 2012 Ministerial conference, now under the flag of international cooperation. It's not notional. This got initial approvement at the 2014 Ministerial conference. It was one of trades that flew below the radar at the latest conference because all attention was going to Ariane 6 and the associated stand-off between Germany and France.

This comes from organization which failed to create a financially sustainable LEO cargo delivery craft. Not confidence-inspiring.

There never was a requirement to make ESA's LEO cargo delivery craft (aka ATV) 'financially sustainable'. In the traditional aerospace community - regardless of being governance or industry - you never get what you don't ask for.

In an interview with German weekly Spiegel due to be published in print the coming monday Wörner has apparently declared he wants Europe to have an autonomous way into space and that in his opinion Ariane 5 could be turned into a manned launcher for this purpose within 4-5 years.

Eh, Wörner will (metaphorically) just bring that with him when he switches over from DLR... which does provide some funding for Dream Chaser, at least until 2017. Besides, under CCiCap SNC's DC is 96% funded by now.

The only way I can see ESA using DreamChaser is if SierraNevada were to relocate significant portions of the DC logistics and supply chain to Europe particularly France and Germany (SN has some presence in Europe already). The actual vehicle/s might be manufactured in the US but because most of the money is spent in flying and maintaining it ESA would demand that money stay in Europe.

In an interview with German weekly Spiegel due to be published in print the coming monday Wörner has apparently declared he wants Europe to have an autonomous way into space and that in his opinion Ariane 5 could be turned into a manned launcher for this purpose within 4-5 years.

Well, they've gotta' use Ariane for something in a post 2016/2017/2018/2019/2020 world, because it's going to become commercially unviable at some point during that stretch.

Regarding the moon:- he's pushing ISRU, a lot; "so, dust and 3D printers?" - "sure, why not"- asked about NASA's Mars ambitions, he sees landing on Mars "and other celestial bodies" as something for the future - something that humanity shall and will at some point achieve, but not necessarily during his lifetime.- He sees the moon as one of two parallel immediate post-ISS manned spaceflight projects for ESA (the other being LEO "use of microgravity" (commercial?) in cooperation with the USA)- Interestingly he's only talking about ISS in past tense - along the lines of "we have to look for the next thing"- At the end of the interview he (again) proposes landing humans specifically on the far side of the moon as his personal vision for a lunar mission, "not scientifically checked - yet". Not a new idea though, he has endorsed the far side quite publically over the past two months or so along with head of the ESA astronaut corps Thomas Reiter.

I could see this happening by 2030. It would have to be post-ISS because the funds just aren't there at this time. ESA could use SLS / Orion for crew transportation, and work on a lander and initial Lunar infrastructure themselves. Longer-term infrastructure could be developed in a joint US-Europe-Russia way, much like the ISS.

As far as NASA being willing to go to do the Moon with ESA, why not? I mean, NASA doesn't have anything resembling actual plans to go anywhere. It's very easy to change a plan that barely exists, especially when national pride is on the line.