Pai's Version C Command List Errata

1. Pai's Double Palm (FC f+P) is listed as hit level M*; I believe it is actually M.
2. Both versions of the df+PK Low Bluefist, Mid Crescent should have their reversal levels changed to CR.
3. Although the f,b+P Lunging Palm causes Shun to be sobered by -1DP, if it is continued into the f,b+PP Lunging Palm, Standing Palm combo move, the -1DP doesn't take effect; this might be worth mentioning in the notes.
4. Both versions of the KPK High Kick, Low Blue Fist, Kick should have their reversal levels changed to CR.
5. The b+K Reverse Heelkick should have its hit level changed to M, and its reversal level to MK.
6. There are several moves listed as reversible that I believe are not: Running Flying Kick; ub+Kf+k Backflip Kick, Reverse Backflip Kick; uf+K Single Swallow Kick; f+K+G Double Moon Kick; uf+K+G Reverse Backflip Kick. I will be checking her Hop Attacks tomorrow. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif
7. The reversal levels for the two Evading Crescent attacks should be changed from MK to CR.
8. The (Circular Evade Stance) Double Strike (with P+K command) is listed as unreversible, but can be reversed as a KN attack.
9. There are two Sway Step Attacks that are also listed as unreversible, but which can in fact be reversed as MP attacks. These are the PP Double Body Blow & the PPP Double Body Blow, Double Palm (even though the PPP looks like a two-handed attack).
10. Another Sway Step Attack, the K+G Crescent, needs its reversal level changed from CR to MK.
11. The two f+P+K+G Push Over Throws make reference to "left side" and "right side"; is this with respect to which side of the opponent's body Pai is on, or to which side of the screen (viewed as a two-dimensional field) Pai is on relative to her opponent?
12. Okay, here's where I make myself look even more stupid. Are we sure that the Back Turned K+G Reverse Crescent exists? All I get when inputting K+G (when not directly inputting it from a Sway Step move) while back turned is a TT Kick, or sometimes the game decides I want Pai to turn around and execute a normal Crescent. The Reverse Crescent move doesn't appear in the training mode either.
13. The note for the b+P+K+G Sway Step has a slight typo ("Swap" step), and the note "Sober (DP -1) if Charged" in the uncharged version of the Low Blue Fist, Mid Crescent is redundantly unnecessary, as it is properly mentioned in the next line.

Some more:
14. There are two reversals missing: Pai has a b+P+K HE reversal, with base damage of 30, and a f+P+K HE Inashi with a base damage of 5.
15. The hit levels for the two Punch Sweep Combo entries should be changed to L, and their reversal levels to SW.
16. Pai's KK sobers Shun (-1DP).
17. The u+K+G Jumping Stomp seems to double as a ground attack. This would seem worthy of a note.
18. The damage for the Reversal Parry is listed as 10. I get 10+10 = 20 when I do it, and I don't think it has anything to do with bonuses being added to a base damage of 10 since I got the same result using two different types of HK kicks, that each do different damage. Is there something I've not considered?
19. All three of Pai's Hop Attack kicks (Downward Kick, Hopkick, & Landing Side Kick) are listed with an MK reversal level, but I was not able to reverse them after extensive testing, and I don't think they can be reversed. Now this led me to some "research" with an odd conclusion, which was sparked by a post made by Myke. It turns out that every midlevel hop kick attack in the game, including these three, can be parried by Aoi's YY stance, even if they (apparently) can't be reversed by a Mid Kick Reversal. Now some seemed to have reached the conclusion that the YY stance can serve to determine whether or not midlevel attacks can be reversed. It turns out this is not true. Sarah's [Flamingo Stance]KKK+G can be reversed by a Mid Kick Reversal, but the YY stance has no parrying effect on it.
20. The ub+K Back Turned Attack (called a Reverse Backflip Kick) is listed with a reversal level of SM, but I believe this is another unreversible attack.
21. The d+K Sweep, a Back Turned Attack, is listed with a reversal level of LK; it should be SW.
22. The Off the Wall Back Kick is missing a "Guard Stagger" note.
23. Pai's f,b+P Lunging Palm is annotated as a Sabaki vs. HP. It is also a Sabaki vs. HK, EL, ME, MP, KN, and many (but not all) MK attacks as well. In testing it on Sarah's MK kicks, I could not get it to parry: df+K; b+K; P+K; b+P+K; u+K+G; f+K+G; [FS]df+K; Pd+K; d+KK. With Lion's MK Kicks, I had even less success. I could only get a parry vs ff+K; ff+KK; and his Hop Kick.

2. Both versions of the df+PK Low Bluefist, Mid Crescent should have their reversal levels changed to CR.

Corrected.

3. Although the f,b+P Lunging Palm causes Shun to be sobered by -1DP, if it is continued into the f,b+PP Lunging Palm, Standing Palm combo move, the -1DP doesn't take effect; this might be worth mentioning in the notes.

Noted.

4. Both versions of the KPK High Kick, Low Blue Fist, Kick should have their reversal levels changed to CR.

Corrected. Is it sufficient enough to denote both high and mid level crescents as CR reversable? Or should I introduce HCR and MCR notation?

5. The b+K Reverse Heelkick should have its hit level changed to M, and its reversal level to MK.

7. The reversal levels for the two Evading Crescent attacks should be changed from MK to CR.

Corrected.

8. The (Circular Evade Stance) Double Strike (with P+K command) is listed as unreversible, but can be reversed as a KN attack.

Corrected.

9. There are two Sway Step Attacks that are also listed as unreversible, but which can in fact be reversed as MP attacks. These are the PP Double Body Blow & the PPP Double Body Blow, Double Palm (even though the PPP looks like a two-handed attack).

11. The two f+P+K+G Push Over Throws make reference to "left side" and "right side"; is this with respect to which side of the opponent's body Pai is on, or to which side of the screen (viewed as a two-dimensional field) Pai is on relative to her opponent?

It's the side of the opponent Pai is on. So if Pai's on 1P side, dodging up would be to the opponent's right side.

12. Okay, here's where I make myself look even more stupid. Are we sure that the Back Turned K+G Reverse Crescent exists? All I get when inputting K+G (when not directly inputting it from a Sway Step move) while back turned is a TT Kick, or sometimes the game decides I want Pai to turn around and execute a normal Crescent. The Reverse Crescent move doesn't appear in the training mode either.

Ugh, I don't know how this got in there. It's supposed to be the canned K+G followup to the high back throw and it has nothing to do with being Back Turned. I checked the Black and Blue book and they've erroneously listed this move in the Back Turned section, however the White Book correctly lists this same move in the Throw section as a throw combo followup. I've removed this entry from the BT section, and changed the name in the Throw section from "Crescent" ('cos it's not) to Backflip Kick.

13. The note for the b+P+K+G Sway Step has a slight typo ("Swap" step), and the note "Sober (DP -1) if Charged" in the uncharged version of the Low Blue Fist, Mid Crescent is redundantly unnecessary, as it is properly mentioned in the next line.

Typo corrected and removed Sober note.

14. There are two reversals missing: Pai has a b+P+K HE reversal, with base damage of 30, and a f+P+K HE Inashi with a base damage of 5.

Added.

15. The hit levels for the two Punch Sweep Combo entries should be changed to L, and their reversal levels to SW.

Corrected.

16. Pai's KK sobers Shun (-1DP).

Added.

17. The u+K+G Jumping Stomp seems to double as a ground attack. This would seem worthy of a note.

Added.

18. The damage for the Reversal Parry is listed as 10. I get 10+10 = 20 when I do it, and I don't think it has anything to do with bonuses being added to a base damage of 10 since I got the same result using two different types of HK kicks, that each do different damage. Is there something I've not considered?

Nope, I agree with your observations too, so I'm changing the damage to 20.

19. All three of Pai's Hop Attack kicks (Downward Kick, Hopkick, & Landing Side Kick) are listed with an MK reversal level, but I was not able to reverse them after extensive testing, and I don't think they can be reversed. Now this led me to some "research" with an odd conclusion, which was sparked by a post made by Myke. It turns out that every midlevel hop kick attack in the game, including these three, can be parried by Aoi's YY stance, even if they (apparently) can't be reversed by a Mid Kick Reversal. Now some seemed to have reached the conclusion that the YY stance can serve to determine whether or not midlevel attacks can be reversed. It turns out this is not true. Sarah's [Flamingo Stance]KKK+G can be reversed by a Mid Kick Reversal, but the YY stance has no parrying effect on it.

Corrected reversal levels for the hopping kicks. In regard to reversing "MK" attacks, you have to take into account that there are different classes of MK attacks which I haven't been able to delineate yet. The VF publications classify the two types as "Middle" (literal translation) and "mid-level kick" (rough translation). The "Middle" is for sidekicks (df+K and similar) while "mid-level kick" is for all other kick attacks that hit Mid. So, going by your "research", does it appear that Aoi's YY can only inashi "Middle" class? (For reference, VP uses SK to denote "Middle").

20. The ub+K Back Turned Attack (called a Reverse Backflip Kick) is listed with a reversal level of SM, but I believe this is another unreversible attack.

Corrected.

21. The d+K Sweep, a Back Turned Attack, is listed with a reversal level of LK; it should be SW.

Corrected.

22. The Off the Wall Back Kick is missing a "Guard Stagger" note.

Added.

23. Pai's f,b+P Lunging Palm is annotated as a Sabaki vs. HP. It is also a Sabaki vs. HK, EL, ME, MP, KN, and many (but not all) MK attacks as well. In testing it on Sarah's MK kicks, I could not get it to parry: df+K; b+K; P+K; b+P+K; u+K+G; f+K+G; [FS]df+K; Pd+K; d+KK. With Lion's MK Kicks, I had even less success. I could only get a parry vs ff+K; ff+KK; and his Hop Kick.

Gaaahhh!!!! You know, working out the reversal system is proving to be a nightmare. I wonder if that's the reason why all VF4 publications have omitted Reversal information, which has been traditionally included for past VF games in the series.

1. Is it sufficient enough to denote both high and mid level crescents as CR reversable? Or should I introduce HCR and MCR notation?

I think you should use separate HCR and MCR designations. It's more a question of consistency and clarity, rather than of sufficiency.

2. the note "Sober (DP -1) if Charged" in the uncharged version of the Low Blue Fist, Mid Crescent is redundantly unnecessary, as it is properly mentioned in the next line.

Typo corrected and removed Sober note.

There is an identical redundant and confusing line in the note for the KPK High Kick, Low Blue Fist, Kick.

3. Unless I am missing some kind of modification, the damage for the u|d+P+K Trip entries should be 35, not 10. I don't understand what "10(+20) Damage" means in the note either.

4. Corrected reversal levels for the hopping kicks. In regard to reversing "MK" attacks, you have to take into account that there are different classes of MK attacks which I haven't been able to delineate yet.

I think I will be able to. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif I'll explain.

The VF publications classify the two types as "Middle" (literal translation) and "mid-level kick" (rough translation). The "Middle" is for sidekicks (df+K and similar) while "mid-level kick" is for all other kick attacks that hit Mid.

Yep, that is important, IMHO, and leads to further "errata." Pai actually has two db+P+K Mid Kick Reversals. They both appear on her Command List in the game, without explaining their difference. They operate differently, and I've discovered that one is for "Middle" (or SK as VP calls them) kick attacks, and the other is for MK attacks. This distinction also appears to have a bearing on what can be affected by a Sabaki, but I will need to complete more research on which ones are so affected -- I've only done testing on Pai, Lion, Kage, and Sarah attacks so far. In the meanwhile, I will go back to each of the errata threads, and indicate which midlevel reversible kicks should be in the SK class, and will continue noting them as I go through other characters. For Pai, it is only her df+K that should be changed to SK.

Further, Pai has four different df+P+K Mid Kick Inashis, two for SK kicks, and two for MK kicks. Each of the two SK kick reversals occurs depending on which leg the opponent kicks with. This is also true for the MK Inashis, but strangely, which is for the right leg and which is for the left leg varies with the specific kick.

Pai also has two quite different df+P+K Knee Inashis, one for right knees and one for left knees, and two distinctly different df+P+K Elbow Inashis, one for right elbows and one for left elbows.

No. I will report more on this as I continue and get more precise information through further testing. I will be testing it on every midlevel kick in the game.

Pai's f,b+P Lunging Palm is annotated as a Sabaki vs. HP. It is also a Sabaki vs. HK, EL, ME, MP, KN, and many (but not all) MK attacks as well. In testing it on Sarah's MK kicks, I could not get it to parry: df+K; b+K; P+K; b+P+K; u+K+G; f+K+G; [FS]df+K; Pd+K; d+KK. With Lion's MK Kicks, I had even less success. I could only get a parry vs ff+K; ff+KK; and his Hop Kick.

1. Continuing on with Pai's Inashis: It turns out she also has two distinctly different f+P+K High Kick Inashis, and two distinctly different f+P+K High Elbow Inashis; one each for an opponent's right limb, and one for an opponent's left limb.

Each of Pai's f|df+P+K Inashis causes a stagger animation that I think fits the description of being a Stumble, which is an animation type that you wish to keep track of in the notes.

2. The Pai vs. Pai Reversal Parry has a note saying "vs. Pai's HK reversal." It also works vs. her two db+P+K MK reversals (but not her SK reversals).

3. Should there be an "x" in the Esc column for her two Evading Crescent attacks?

I had posted: Pai's f,b+P Lunging Palm is annotated as a Sabaki vs. HP. It is also a Sabaki vs. HK, EL, ME, MP, KN, and many (but not all) MK attacks as well.

For the record: The "ME" is a typo for HE, which Myke fortunately caught when making the Command List correction. Also, as I continue testing (now with Lau's midlevel kicks as well), it is continuing to be the case that the Lunging Palm does not parry "SK" type kicks, but does parry other MK kicks.

(Re: Sober note) There is an identical redundant and confusing line in the note for the KPK High Kick, Low Blue Fist, Kick.

Note removed.

3. Unless I am missing some kind of modification, the damage for the u|d+P+K Trip entries should be 35, not 10. I don't understand what "10(+20) Damage" means in the note either.

I believe the entry is correct as is. The entries in the Blue/White books list the base damage as 10, and then the note in the White Book translates to "during the hit, the shift throw deals another 20 pts damage".

You can do the trip in an air combo (against a wall) such that only the kick will hit and there's no "shift throw". You'll find that it does 8 pts damage (subjected to 80% air combo scaling). To test, just do Pai's K against an opponent with their back to the wall, and then trip.

I don't know where you're getting 35 pts from though. I tested the trip in a float combo with opponent TRing and the damage was 10+20. I then did Pai's Sidekick on an opponent with their back to the wall. As they're staggered off the wall falling forward on one knee, I can trip them with u or d+P+K for an additional 30 pts damage: total damage is 21 pts from the Sidekick, then 10+20 from the trip.

Each of Pai's f|df+P+K Inashis causes a stagger animation that I think fits the description of being a Stumble, which is an animation type that you wish to keep track of in the notes.

Added. However, I'd like if there's a real need to differentiate between a stagger and a stumble? Aren't they essentially the same thing? A state where you're vulnerable to attack, but not throws, and struggling reduces the time in this vulnerable state. If anyone can think of differences in the properties of staggers and stumbles, then I'd like to hear about them.

2. The Pai vs. Pai Reversal Parry has a note saying "vs. Pai's HK reversal." It also works vs. her two db+P+K MK reversals (but not her SK reversals).

Added.

3. Should there be an "x" in the Esc column for her two Evading Crescent attacks?

Yep. Added.

4. I believe the f+K+G Double Moon Kick causes a Slam.

Note added.

1. The (left|right side) f+P+K+G Push Over Throw entries should have a "QR/TR possible" note

With regards to my comment on damage from Pai's d|u+P+K Trip, Myke said:I don't know where you're getting 35 pts from though. I tested the trip in a float combo with opponent TRing and the damage was 10+20. I then did Pai's Sidekick on an opponent with their back to the wall. As they're staggered off the wall falling forward on one knee, I can trip them with u or d+P+K for an additional 30 pts damage: total damage is 21 pts from the Sidekick, then 10+20 from the trip.

Well, here's what I did; maybe somebody can explain the result. I went into free training with Pai, and used Kage as an opponent. I programmed Kage to do a d+K Low Kick. Just before he executed the attack, I inputted the Trip (in the opposite direction of his lead foot). He attacked and received 15 points of damage immediately from tripping over Pai's leg (it registered as a low attack), then as he hit the ground, he received 20 more points of damage. I repeated this with Kage doing a d+K+G Heelkick attack, and got the same exact result.

BTW, upon thinking about it, when dealing with ranged damage that is greater nearer the opponent, using the note "damage increases with proximity," is a better way of conveying this than "damage decreases with distance." Just my logical pedantic consistency-seeking mind kicking in...

Corrected the above. FYI, Blue Book reports the running flying kick at 45 pts whereas the White Book has 41 pts.

BTW, upon thinking about it, when dealing with ranged damage that is greater nearer the opponent, using the note "damage increases with proximity," is a better way of conveying this than "damage decreases with distance." Just my logical pedantic consistency-seeking mind kicking in...

I can see your point, but I think labelling moves as increasing/decreasing with distance is already consistent, especially if the note always appears on the (near) variant, since it explains how the damage will vary with distance away from the opponent (either increasing or decreasing). Having a note which reads "Damage increases with proximity" makes sense to be on the (far) variant which describes the change in damage as you get closer to the opponent.