I wanted to try and recenter some of the conversation around Pioli in one place, and ask an honest question, why should he be fired, and why not?

When making an evaluation of anything or anyone, I try to compare to other similar situations. It's easy to look at the Steelers and say why can't we do that. Well, we don't have 4 decades of winning football tradition ingrained in our culture, so it's kind of apples and oranges for a new FO coming in.

There have been several historically bad teams in the past decade and a half. Some have never seemed to get out of that funk like the Browns, and to lesser extents the Raiders, Jags, Us, Rams, Bills, and Dolphins.

I then look at teams that have gone from terribad to very good in relatively short order. And I'm not just talking about one good season, but several seasons of at least running their division or playoff success.

The Ravens were once the Browns, and in more then just name, they were bad. But very good drafting, along with one of the biggest culture changes I've ever seen in a franchise has led to a decade of great success, and a team that is always on the short list of SB contenders.

The Houston Texans were in existence for a full decade before their first playoff appearance. They were an expansion team and needed some time, but 8-9yrs went by before they were more then a 4-5 win team. They are no one of the best teams in the league, and one of the youngest, especially when you look at their best defensive players.

The biggest change is still underway in the Lions. They were 0-16 in 2008 after going the 8 previous season without a winning season. They blew everything up and started over. In 3 years they made the playoffs and are certainly at least an above average team. Sure they are still going through some growing pains, but they don't have nearly the serious questions we've got, and everyone believes they are headed in the right direction. I think most would agree they were a far worse team in 2008 then we were, but they are also in far better position then we are currently, at least IMO

I can go on with the 49ers recent turnaround, the Seahawks, the Falcons, and a few others. But my point is that these teams all were seemingly stuck as bottom dwellers for several years, and then they blew up their FO, and within relatively short order were doing 10 times better. Sure, the Ravens had a few 6-7 win seasons along the way, but they never were this bad. The Texans under Rick Smith have steadily improved. They have done it the way I thought we might. They stuck with their HC, even when a large portion of the fans wanted him gone, but all along everyone knew they were headed in the right direction, and the team overall was getting better, they just thought Kubiak was the thing holding them back.

I too caution that we need to be patient, but that patience should only last as long as it is evident that the direction we are headed is the correct one, and there aren't systemic issues across the board to deal with. This isn't just bad coaching moves, or bad early round picks, or a failure to find even a decent QB, or letting valuable guys walk into UFA, or failing to get impact players from UFA, or failing to create a winning culture, or failing to build a good relationship with the fans. It is ALL of that, and for those many grievances, he needs to be let go. Four years is absolutely enough time to fix at least some of that.

Written after the Haley Firing - By the way, Scott, tell your boss Mr. Hunt that the Steelers - the team he keeps saying he wants to emulate - wouldn't have done something like this. They would've come together as a collective unit and been patient. Instead, we're back to square one.

I expected better out of you, Scott. You better be right about all of this. If you're not, I hope you don't expect better out of me.

Basically Pioli wasn't patient with Haley, so why should we be with him? If Haley was so terrible at 5-8, isn't Pioli even worse at 1-7?

EDIT: Sorry Antoine Caldwell is not the Texans center but was starting for them at one point last season, but is now a back-up._________________
^ryknowssd on the sig

Last edited by bigschmadt00 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total

I think an excellent comparison is the Atlanta Falcons. Considering the absolute mess the team was in during the Bobby Petrino time period that franchise was at a very low point. You had the Michael Vick situation blowing up in their faces and you have a lockerroom of veteran players that was dysfunctional - the inmates were running the asylum.

Arthur Blank brought in Thomas Dimitroff and I see the big difference between Scott Pioli and Dimitroff is by all appearances a philosophical one.

I am going to generalize and make some assumptions based on opinion, but IMO Scott Pioli strikes me as the type of GM that has a map in his head of exactly where HE feels the franchise needs to go. And that map is detailed down to the type of scheme and players. I feel the coaching staff he assembles may have some say in scheme and player personnel preferences but he isnít necessarily the type of personality that is going to stray from the direction HE is determined to take the franchise. So in essence, everyone has to fit around his structure. I firmly believe that is why we see so much turnover in the coaching staff because that type of environment is going to expose trying to fit square pegs in round holes. An example of this is IIRC shortly after Scott Pioli was hired he himself made a comment about the defense transitioning from a 4-3 to a 3-4. I believe that was one of those determinations Pioli had already made even prior to any discussions with a coaching staff. When things are set in stone from a step-by-step process you lose the flexibility.

Dimitroff on the other hand seems to have focused on assembling a coaching staff that not only he felt completely comfortable with, but apparently felt comfortable working amongst themselves. Then the next step seems to be determining with the coaching staff what type of players would be targeted. The malcontents and selfish veterans were quickly removed from the locker room and quality veterans were brought in to fill the leadership void that had existed.

Pioli on the other hand thought he could intall his own leadership from the Patriot organization and to successfully do that, he apparently felt he had to remove the "old regime" of leadership so there wasn't any conflict at the top of the player hierarchy. The problem is, Mike Vrabel was short-lived and is gone and Matt Cassel has never filled the leadership position.

I could go on and on with comparisons, but in short, I think it all comes down to flexibility and entrusting people you have brought on board to handle some decision-making._________________

Well stated Nic, as usual. For me it is VERY simple. Either Hunt decides to be an owner dead set on winning a championship, or decide to continue to treat this as an 'inherited hobby'.

All the supposition, verbage, and conjecture is nothing but coffee talk bull crap until something or somebody at the top decides to fish or cut bait. As we speak, I absolutely do not think that Junior Hunt has the belly burn to fix this thing. Maybe his brother and sister, silent 1/3 partners in this franchise, need to fire Clark and take another tact. You have to ask yourself ....how long are THEY willing to be the laughing stock around Dallas and the league? At some point it really gets embarrasing, even for the highly insulated elite.

Nic, good job, Pard._________________season ticket holder from 1977-92. Personal friends with many retired chiefs. Great times.

From my last post, I hope you all took it as "Poili has to go." If I wasn't perfectly clear, my bad._________________season ticket holder from 1977-92. Personal friends with many retired chiefs. Great times.

Thanks guys, I tend to ramble and run-on with my posts, but hopefully you guys got the main points on what I was saying. It seems like you did so I must not have been too confusing or rambling! LOL_________________

To me, there are three outcomes possible, two of which I find acceptable:
1. Both Pioli and Crennel are fired.
2. Both Pioli and Crennel are retained.
3. Pioli is retained, but fires Crennel.

#1 is the most reactionary, and another rebuilding project. At best, you hope for a Harbaugh-like arrival. At worst, well, a losing season. The fan base is invigorated with hope, but will need some patience... sound familiar?

#2 is the most patient and as Arrowhead Pride mentioned earlier, a "Steelers"-esque move. It's not very reactionary and goes against a lot of vocal, angry sentiment in KC. It's also the most stable move you could ask for.

#3 is the most unlikable, and perhaps downright despicable after Crennel's high praise during last offseason, and his continued support from Pioli. If Crennel is fired and Pioli stays on, that is a huge, huge crime. A lot of people think Pioli standing by Cassel was bad, but firing Crennel after one season would be the unholiest of unholy moves he could make in KC. I don't think I could respect Pioli after that one-and-done support.

But we'll see._________________[quote="aceinthehouse"]I personally do NOT think Lewis is the Greatest MLBer ever.

In fact, I'm not sure he's better than our very own London Fletcher.[/quote]

I just wanted to mention something and this seemed like a good thread for it.

I don't know if anyone here really follows the NBA, but I'm a Lakers fan, and they just did what a team with great ownership and management does. They admit their mistake and cut their losses. I didn't like the hire in the first place, but I tried to trust them. Didn't look great last year, looked awful this year. Fire your awful coach, pay him his damn money and move on. They know they only have a short window and they need to do what they can to win now.

To bring this back to the Chiefs. For me to have any respect for Clark, he's gonna have to wise up and cut his losses. Pioli seemed like a great hire at the time and I along with a lot of people were really excited for Pioli, but he hasn't shown that he has what it takes. Getting a new GM doesn't put us back in rebuilding mode, it has the opportunity to put us in win now mode. We need a change.