I can't say the paranoia's unjustified-a good handful of my female friends in college were stalked by one guy who seemed to take any act of kindness towards him as evidence the girl was in love with him. Then he'd enter stalker mode. (To the school's credit, they actually did a *lot*, including getting to the point that the head of the math department informed all teachers that he aws never, ever to be paired with women on group projects. They couldn't just outright kick him out, since he hadn't done anything *illegal*, just really goddamn creepy.) I'm sure there are lots of guys like that out there.

At the same time, nothing makes me feel more confident towards my yearly volunteering at a girlscout camp than the knowledge that a number of people suspecting I'm a creepy pornsick stalker dude because I'm a guy they don't know. It certainly helps shut up that paranoid part of MY brain, that keeps going "Hey. Hey. Hey. All it takes is one false accusation or flipped out/crazy parent, and your life is basically ruined. HAVE FUN."

So on one hand, your women friends were being creeped on and stalked.

On the other hand, you don't want people to think you're a rapist.

So is the solution then that women should ignore or encourage creepy stalkers so that you can enjoy never having to worry about being viewed as a creepy stalker?

Uh, no, the solution isn't that women should ignore or encourage creepy behavior. I'm... reaallllyyyyy not sure where you got that from in my post.

Perhaps I should in turn respond all offended as well? Can we play the "More offended than thou" game?

"I'm sorry, how dare I have the nerve to not want to be thought of as a child rapist. Truley, I am out of line in going "Damn, it sucks that we live in a society where, as a male who chooses to volunteer his time with young girls, I am automatically thought as a rapist."" That was out of line, clearly. How dare I have the audacity to speak in a comic thread.

TRULY, THIS IS A PRODUCTIVE RESPONSE.

Now getting back responding in a serious, not passive-agressive way.

Quote:

Please explain to me why a general push to educate people on, "Here is how not to be a rapist, and how not to appear to be a rapist when you don't mena to, and here is how to tell non rapists from rapists" is a solution not worth considering?[

I don't intend to try and explain this to you. Mainly because it's not a position I actually hold. WE SHOULD educate people on how not to be creepy, or how not to appear to be a rapist. We need to beat into people's heads that just because a girl is nice to you does not mean she is in love with you (.. I.. am not sure it would have helped in the case of the guy I mentioned, since there was, uh. A lot of other things wrong with him. Including him trying to get a teacher fired because she gave him a bad grade in the class. Thankfully, nothing came of it, which is good-she is the best goddamn math professor I'd ever had. She was friggen amazing, aaannnd I'm digressing sorry.)

Indeed, such education would benefit me/other guys as well, since it would help dispel the cultural/patriarchal myth that men cannot be nurturing, so any man that wants to spend time with children should be viewed with suspicion.

I'm really, truly baffled by how my post, in any way, made you think "Therefore we should just give up and women should do nothing and just get raped for ever and eeeeveeerrrrr and guys should get to be creepy to their heart's content." All I said was, effectively, "It sucks that such creepy behavior causes a negative stereotype of *all* men as a defensive reaction." And it *DOES* suck. The solution, of course, is not "Don't be paranoid", but to attack the *root* of the behavior: The creepy behavior *itself*.

Seriously, the fuck?

I am sympathetic. When deciding what career path I wanted to go on, I had to base it around what careers don't involve children, because plenty of parents still think all queer people are child molesters. There is some other stuff I won't get into - suffice to say I've got experience with this, and it was horrible. I get why people worry.

It is, however, very common for people to say or imply that rape reports are usually false - because women are liars. This thinking is currently being used as the basis of legislation. It also affects the outcome of rape cases when judges and jurors think that way.

I did not get from your post that you think nothing should be done. Rather, I got, "These two things compete with each other." They don't have to; men being falsely accused of rape does not have to accompany increased safety for women._________________[Stripeypants has enabled lurk mode.]

Now that I've cleared this up to my satisfaction, I shall see you next thread. Until then, to echo your own signings off, I shall paraphrase the offensive and quaintly stilted words of the Progs of the video game Alpha Centauri - "Defiance: your tribe."

I can't say the paranoia's unjustified-a good handful of my female friends in college were stalked by one guy who seemed to take any act of kindness towards him as evidence the girl was in love with him. Then he'd enter stalker mode. (To the school's credit, they actually did a *lot*, including getting to the point that the head of the math department informed all teachers that he aws never, ever to be paired with women on group projects. They couldn't just outright kick him out, since he hadn't done anything *illegal*, just really goddamn creepy.) I'm sure there are lots of guys like that out there.

At the same time, nothing makes me feel more confident towards my yearly volunteering at a girlscout camp than the knowledge that a number of people suspecting I'm a creepy pornsick stalker dude because I'm a guy they don't know. It certainly helps shut up that paranoid part of MY brain, that keeps going "Hey. Hey. Hey. All it takes is one false accusation or flipped out/crazy parent, and your life is basically ruined. HAVE FUN."

So on one hand, your women friends were being creeped on and stalked.

On the other hand, you don't want people to think you're a rapist.

So is the solution then that women should ignore or encourage creepy stalkers so that you can enjoy never having to worry about being viewed as a creepy stalker?

Uh, no, the solution isn't that women should ignore or encourage creepy behavior. I'm... reaallllyyyyy not sure where you got that from in my post.

Perhaps I should in turn respond all offended as well? Can we play the "More offended than thou" game?

"I'm sorry, how dare I have the nerve to not want to be thought of as a child rapist. Truley, I am out of line in going "Damn, it sucks that we live in a society where, as a male who chooses to volunteer his time with young girls, I am automatically thought as a rapist."" That was out of line, clearly. How dare I have the audacity to speak in a comic thread.

TRULY, THIS IS A PRODUCTIVE RESPONSE.

Now getting back responding in a serious, not passive-agressive way.

Quote:

Please explain to me why a general push to educate people on, "Here is how not to be a rapist, and how not to appear to be a rapist when you don't mena to, and here is how to tell non rapists from rapists" is a solution not worth considering?[

I don't intend to try and explain this to you. Mainly because it's not a position I actually hold. WE SHOULD educate people on how not to be creepy, or how not to appear to be a rapist. We need to beat into people's heads that just because a girl is nice to you does not mean she is in love with you (.. I.. am not sure it would have helped in the case of the guy I mentioned, since there was, uh. A lot of other things wrong with him. Including him trying to get a teacher fired because she gave him a bad grade in the class. Thankfully, nothing came of it, which is good-she is the best goddamn math professor I'd ever had. She was friggen amazing, aaannnd I'm digressing sorry.)

Indeed, such education would benefit me/other guys as well, since it would help dispel the cultural/patriarchal myth that men cannot be nurturing, so any man that wants to spend time with children should be viewed with suspicion.

I'm really, truly baffled by how my post, in any way, made you think "Therefore we should just give up and women should do nothing and just get raped for ever and eeeeveeerrrrr and guys should get to be creepy to their heart's content." All I said was, effectively, "It sucks that such creepy behavior causes a negative stereotype of *all* men as a defensive reaction." And it *DOES* suck. The solution, of course, is not "Don't be paranoid", but to attack the *root* of the behavior: The creepy behavior *itself*.

Seriously, the fuck?

I am sympathetic. When deciding what career path I wanted to go on, I had to base it around what careers don't involve children, because plenty of parents still think all queer people are child molesters. There is some other stuff I won't get into - suffice to say I've got experience with this, and it was horrible. I get why people worry.

It is, however, very common for people to say or imply that rape reports are usually false - because women are liars. This thinking is currently being used as the basis of legislation. It also affects the outcome of rape cases when judges and jurors think that way.

I did not get from your post that you think nothing should be done. Rather, I got, "These two things compete with each other." They don't have to; men being falsely accused of rape does not have to accompany increased safety for women.

Fair enough. The reason I *thought* you thought I thought nothing should be done was because you launched into that hypotehtical question. Which sort of made me think you were implying that I was advocating that point of view. Which is why I got a little upset/frustrated, I admit.

I should note I was, when thinking about it, more focused on kids in general than "Women are liars", in part because there are some very, very well doccumented cases where kids were (even if unintentionally) coached into, well, lies (this is not the fault of the kids). That were not, well, dismissed. Even if the lies were clearly, patently, COMPLETELY ridiculous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial). It wasn't so much "Women are liars" as "I do not trust the legal system to actually act in a sane fashion when children are involved." This isn't even "children are usually liars", really. It's more that people go fucking bugshit nuts when children are involved. ESPECIALLY if adult males are also involved. Or, as you said, queer or otherwise not-gender-norm-I-cannot-remember-the-word-it-is-the-opposite-of-cis people. Actually, one of our counselors is a person-who-now-identifies-as-male. (I cannot remember the proper term, and the english language is a bastard and does not make describing this easy.)

Given that I mentioned it's a girlscout camp, I suppose I can see why you shifted to the 'people make the argument that most rape accusations are lies' angle. I more mentioned it's a girlscout camp just because it seems to heighten suspicion. (Especially since many of our male volunteers aren't adults with children in the girlscouts, but college-aged guys who are simply helping out to help out. Which is apparently not normal?)_________________"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger

Now that I've cleared this up to my satisfaction, I shall see you next thread. Until then, to echo your own signings off, I shall paraphrase the offensive and quaintly stilted words of the Progs of the video game Alpha Centauri - "Defiance: your tribe."

I already did the alpha centauri thing you gormless pleb

Start threatening like Mirriam always, always, ALWAYS does!

(No, Mirriam, I'm not going to give you my tech. No, I don't care that you've just developed laser soldiers, I'm like fifteen techs further down the tree, PLEASE fark off!)_________________"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger

for one thing, it demonstrates that monique's bend to feminism isn't some out-of-the blue character change tat has forced on us - she's always objected to people trying to take advantage of her or pigeon-hole her because she's a woman.

i wonder if the main evolution is that before, she seemed to see it as just something that happened to _her_; now, perhaps, she is more aware that it is something that affects everyone. and it's not just random guys, it's a whole systemic thing.

but i don't think she's any more afraid of them now than she was then, and she's not going to get all paranoid just because the patriarchy tells her to. there is a difference between being paranoid, and keeping yourself safe._________________aka: neverscared!

I am sympathetic. When deciding what career path I wanted to go on, I had to base it around what careers don't involve children, because plenty of parents still think all queer people are child molesters. There is some other stuff I won't get into - suffice to say I've got experience with this, and it was horrible. I get why people worry.

It is, however, very common for people to say or imply that rape reports are usually false - because women are liars. This thinking is currently being used as the basis of legislation. It also affects the outcome of rape cases when judges and jurors think that way.

I did not get from your post that you think nothing should be done. Rather, I got, "These two things compete with each other." They don't have to; men being falsely accused of rape does not have to accompany increased safety for women.

Fair enough. The reason I *thought* you thought I thought nothing should be done was because you launched into that hypotehtical question. Which sort of made me think you were implying that I was advocating that point of view. Which is why I got a little upset/frustrated, I admit.

I should note I was, when thinking about it, more focused on kids in general than "Women are liars", in part because there are some very, very well doccumented cases where kids were (even if unintentionally) coached into, well, lies (this is not the fault of the kids). That were not, well, dismissed. Even if the lies were clearly, patently, COMPLETELY ridiculous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial). It wasn't so much "Women are liars" as "I do not trust the legal system to actually act in a sane fashion when children are involved." This isn't even "children are usually liars", really. It's more that people go fucking bugshit nuts when children are involved. ESPECIALLY if adult males are also involved. Or, as you said, queer or otherwise not-gender-norm-I-cannot-remember-the-word-it-is-the-opposite-of-cis people. Actually, one of our counselors is a person-who-now-identifies-as-male. (I cannot remember the proper term, and the english language is a bastard and does not make describing this easy.)

Given that I mentioned it's a girlscout camp, I suppose I can see why you shifted to the 'people make the argument that most rape accusations are lies' angle. I more mentioned it's a girlscout camp just because it seems to heighten suspicion. (Especially since many of our male volunteers aren't adults with children in the girlscouts, but college-aged guys who are simply helping out to help out. Which is apparently not normal?)

Genderqueer or transgender are probably the words you're looking for. If they identify solely as male, chances are they use the term transgender.

One MRA tactic is talking about how women are rarely actually raped, but that there is a huge epidemic of women making false accusations of rape against men. False rape accusations are important to discuss and to prevent, but they don't deserve such a prominent place in discussions about actual harassment and rape - because it adds to the false impression that fake rape accusations are at epic levels.

I have read all about the Satanic Panic, which is pretty chilling if only because it was so recent. The fact cops just drove around until a kid picked two random dudes on the street to blame bizarre cult abuse on is horrifying, as is what happened to a number of teachers and daycare workers thanks to the bizarre fantasies of a few parents._________________[Stripeypants has enabled lurk mode.]

for one thing, it demonstrates that monique's bend to feminism isn't some out-of-the blue character change tat has forced on us - she's always objected to people trying to take advantage of her or pigeon-hole her because she's a woman.

i wonder if the main evolution is that before, she seemed to see it as just something that happened to _her_; now, perhaps, she is more aware that it is something that affects everyone. and it's not just random guys, it's a whole systemic thing.

but i don't think she's any more afraid of them now than she was then, and she's not going to get all paranoid just because the patriarchy tells her to. there is a difference between being paranoid, and keeping yourself safe.

I agree, and it's particularly telling that the core of her personality hasn't really changed. (And really, take that, everyone who insists this is some kind of Flanderisation or character butchery to push a feminist agenda - because a non-woman person trying to dictate to a woman how much she should worry about mostly woman-specific concerns is SO original.) Her primary instinct, as with many of us, was to succumb to the meekness/paralysis you get in that situations and try to "wish it away" even though it's often not the best strategy. Then she got a grip on herself and kicked their asses (which is ALSO not always the best strategy because it can place you in further danger, but hey, it worked for her and such is her personality).

She's still doing that. The ONLY difference is that she's learned to better get past the paralysis, and that, back then, she didn't see the big picture. She saw creepy stalker dudes as something that just happened, like we had people insisting in this thread that rape is something that "just happens occasionally", like murder. So when she resisted against it, she did it because of her personality and a sort of basic survival response.

Now she sees the forest, not just the individual trees. She sees not only what's happening but also the reasons why, and how it's part of a trend, and how she's not the only one it happens to, and how it's so much worse and more widespread than just a few guys being jerks.

She's still fighting for her rights, just as she did back then. The only difference is that she now knows the words to describe what's happening and has knowledge of the trends on a higher level. She hasn't grown to hate men, but she HAS grown more impatient with them, which is what happens when you open your eyes and realise both you and them have been played for fools by systemic brainwashing that still screws you over much more thoroughly than them.

She hasn't grown to hate men, but she HAS grown more impatient with them, which is what happens when you open your eyes and realise both you and them have been played for fools by systemic brainwashing that still screws you over much more thoroughly than them.

i like this assessment. and it may explain what seems to be her distance from slick nowadays - she is bothered more by his failure to understand because she was closest to him. she expected him to move with her, and he hasn't._________________aka: neverscared!

for one thing, it demonstrates that monique's bend to feminism isn't some out-of-the blue character change tat has forced on us - she's always objected to people trying to take advantage of her or pigeon-hole her because she's a woman.

i wonder if the main evolution is that before, she seemed to see it as just something that happened to _her_; now, perhaps, she is more aware that it is something that affects everyone. and it's not just random guys, it's a whole systemic thing.

but i don't think she's any more afraid of them now than she was then, and she's not going to get all paranoid just because the patriarchy tells her to. there is a difference between being paranoid, and keeping yourself safe.

I agree, and it's particularly telling that the core of her personality hasn't really changed. (And really, take that, everyone who insists this is some kind of Flanderisation or character butchery to push a feminist agenda - because a non-woman person trying to dictate to a woman how much she should worry about mostly woman-specific concerns is SO original.) Her primary instinct, as with many of us, was to succumb to the meekness/paralysis you get in that situations and try to "wish it away" even though it's often not the best strategy. Then she got a grip on herself and kicked their asses (which is ALSO not always the best strategy because it can place you in further danger, but hey, it worked for her and such is her personality).

She's still doing that. The ONLY difference is that she's learned to better get past the paralysis, and that, back then, she didn't see the big picture. She saw creepy stalker dudes as something that just happened, like we had people insisting in this thread that rape is something that "just happens occasionally", like murder. So when she resisted against it, she did it because of her personality and a sort of basic survival response.

Now she sees the forest, not just the individual trees. She sees not only what's happening but also the reasons why, and how it's part of a trend, and how she's not the only one it happens to, and how it's so much worse and more widespread than just a few guys being jerks.

She's still fighting for her rights, just as she did back then. The only difference is that she now knows the words to describe what's happening and has knowledge of the trends on a higher level. She hasn't grown to hate men, but she HAS grown more impatient with them, which is what happens when you open your eyes and realise both you and them have been played for fools by systemic brainwashing that still screws you over much more thoroughly than them.

I am sympathetic. When deciding what career path I wanted to go on, I had to base it around what careers don't involve children, because plenty of parents still think all queer people are child molesters. There is some other stuff I won't get into - suffice to say I've got experience with this, and it was horrible. I get why people worry.

It is, however, very common for people to say or imply that rape reports are usually false - because women are liars. This thinking is currently being used as the basis of legislation. It also affects the outcome of rape cases when judges and jurors think that way.

I did not get from your post that you think nothing should be done. Rather, I got, "These two things compete with each other." They don't have to; men being falsely accused of rape does not have to accompany increased safety for women.

Fair enough. The reason I *thought* you thought I thought nothing should be done was because you launched into that hypotehtical question. Which sort of made me think you were implying that I was advocating that point of view. Which is why I got a little upset/frustrated, I admit.

I should note I was, when thinking about it, more focused on kids in general than "Women are liars", in part because there are some very, very well doccumented cases where kids were (even if unintentionally) coached into, well, lies (this is not the fault of the kids). That were not, well, dismissed. Even if the lies were clearly, patently, COMPLETELY ridiculous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial). It wasn't so much "Women are liars" as "I do not trust the legal system to actually act in a sane fashion when children are involved." This isn't even "children are usually liars", really. It's more that people go fucking bugshit nuts when children are involved. ESPECIALLY if adult males are also involved. Or, as you said, queer or otherwise not-gender-norm-I-cannot-remember-the-word-it-is-the-opposite-of-cis people. Actually, one of our counselors is a person-who-now-identifies-as-male. (I cannot remember the proper term, and the english language is a bastard and does not make describing this easy.)

Given that I mentioned it's a girlscout camp, I suppose I can see why you shifted to the 'people make the argument that most rape accusations are lies' angle. I more mentioned it's a girlscout camp just because it seems to heighten suspicion. (Especially since many of our male volunteers aren't adults with children in the girlscouts, but college-aged guys who are simply helping out to help out. Which is apparently not normal?)

Genderqueer or transgender are probably the words you're looking for. If they identify solely as male, chances are they use the term transgender.

One MRA tactic is talking about how women are rarely actually raped, but that there is a huge epidemic of women making false accusations of rape against men. False rape accusations are important to discuss and to prevent, but they don't deserve such a prominent place in discussions about actual harassment and rape - because it adds to the false impression that fake rape accusations are at epic levels.

I have read all about the Satanic Panic, which is pretty chilling if only because it was so recent. The fact cops just drove around until a kid picked two random dudes on the street to blame bizarre cult abuse on is horrifying, as is what happened to a number of teachers and daycare workers thanks to the bizarre fantasies of a few parents.

Thanks, I wasn't sure if transgender would be offensive or not. I figured it wouldn't, but I neurotically worry about things I shouldn't sometimes._________________"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger