It's consistent with his "currents of time" stuff in "City on the Edge of Forever" (which was proven right when they blundered into McCoy at the crucial moment) established 25 years prior to VI.

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How dare Meyer, Nimoy and Bennett steal material from other iterations of Star Trek when making Star Trek? I hope they all burn in Hell for their transgressions against the Holy Church of the Roddenberry!

I really wish people would stop misinterpreting the CotEoF lines to imply fate when it's really not the case.

Same with the STVI line. It has nothing to do with fate.

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Having a disagreement about what the lines mean is not misremembering them.

That said, I don't think that Spock's line in TUC was about fate. I read that line in particular as a belief that good people working together in the name of just causes will accomplish good things, even if those things are not what you expected them to be.

Having a disagreement about what the lines mean is not misremembering them.

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I didn't say anything about memory. Really, there's what is actually meant by the lines in their context, and then there's perverting them to try and support what's clearly just a conscious change in direction. I don't understand why there even has to be some throwaway line to validate that.

Having a disagreement about what the lines mean is not misremembering them.

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I didn't say anything about memory. Really, there's what is actually meant by the lines in their context, and then there's perverting them to try and support what's clearly just a conscious change in direction. I don't understand why there even has to be some throwaway line to validate that.

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My bad about your word choice. Let me rephrase:

Having a disagreement about what the lines mean implies that not everyone agrees that the lines are being misinterpreted.​

I don't think that what Spock is talking about in TUC is the same thing as what is occurring in City. There would be no need to "have faith" if there was a physical certainty how things were going to turn out, and I think that is the clearest refutation of the idea that Spock is talking about fate in TUC.

However, I think there's more than a fair argument that fate plays a role in City. The notion of time having a shape, as the Guardian put it, suggests it. The currents in time that drew the two traveling groups together suggests it. Edith being ahead of her time, and having the right idea at the wrong time, suggests it. The word fate not being mentioned does not mean that it's unreasonable to interpret City as being about fate.

However, this thread is not really about that, at least as I see TUC, so if you want to make a thread about City in the appropriate forum, I might come to that to discuss it there, in due course. On the other hand, how to interpret City has been batted about many times over, so in reply I might just simply link to several or more of the numerous posts I've already made about that episode, since what I would say I've likely already said.

However, I think there's more than a fair argument that fate plays a role in City. The notion of time having a shape, as the Guardian put it, suggests it. The currents in time that drew the two traveling groups together suggests it. Edith being ahead of her time, and having the right idea at the wrong time, suggests it. The word fate not being mentioned does not mean that it's unreasonable to interpret City as being about fate.

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Well it might yet be necessary to define what is meant by fate here. But since this thread includes in the title 'the universe will unfold as it should', it seems likely we mean a supernatural force preordaining events. But that is not what is happening in City (not the examples you give anyway). The notion of time having a shape or currents seems to be an ad hoc "scientific" explanation for otherwise unlikely events. I.e. the opposite of fate. Nor is Edith being ahead of her time an example of fate. It is only from the time travelling perspective that it looks like her ideas are destined to come about. Indeed the story makes it clear that they are not inevitable if the wrong decisions are made "now".

If the posts you referred to have examples of fate in City perhaps you could post links to them as you suggested? I would be interested, Though we may need to get on the same page definition wise, as I am not clear where you are coming from.

If you look at most 'fate is inevitable' flicks (like MATRIX sequels) vs 'no fate but what we make' flicks (like T2), it's pretty obvious that the accept-the-inevitable ones are not going to engage in as compelling a fashion. Even if you canNOT change it, the drive to try anyway makes for a better story, a la 12 MONKEYS.

Another example of fate in Star Trek would be the on going relationship between the Prime and the Mirror universes.

Counterparts being located on the starship and space station that it-selves has a counterpart in opposite universe.

With a very few exceptions of course.

Fate.

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The first visit to the MU isn't really fate. Even the second time could still be seen as not fate. But yeah, the repeated trips over there, and characters like Ezri appearing and Jadzia dying are too coincidental and there's definitely some sort of fate there.

However, all those subsequent stories are also shit. So I don't know if it's really a good precedent.

Sure it is. An evil universe where all the people are basically the same and end up in the same exact positions. Don't know what else you would call it?

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Coincidence. The idea is that there are infinite universes so it's possible that one such universe can exist. Why they were sent there and not somewhere completely different, I don't know. That could be fate, or it could be something else.