One of the Pistons great all-time management moves was when they offered a boatload of money to Koncak and forced the Hawks to match it, as it turned out to be one of the worst contracts for a franchise in NBA history.

Based on your posts on most of the games in this win streak, you would think this was the pathetic one.

A win is a win. At the end of the year, what counts is if you won, not by how much, or against whom. Style points are for second place.

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You should probably re-read my posts then especially the ones after the BOS and DEN game.
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A win being a win doesn't count when you're comparing a win to another win.

You can go back and look at my posts and people in chat probably remember, I was calling these guys out of a crap effort while Rip was coming off the bench. AI goes down, lo and behold, everyone is playing just that little bit harder. With AI, no movement, without AI, suddenly Tay is in the post, Tay has stopped pump faking. Sheed has played with a completely different demeanour. While Rip was on the bench, they would show sideline shots of Sheed's face frozen with anger on the bench. We all saw it.

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Really? Can you specify? b/c i didn't see it. Again it's a completely subjective take. You're reading into "body language" and making assumptions based off that that fit into a view you already believe.

Seriously, the point I am making, is that what many people think is irrelevant. Let's not outsource our thinking.

Now according to the scuttlebutt around the league, people admit, the Pistons don't dislike AI, they just don't like playing with him. Obviously, based on the Cleveland, Laker and San Antonio games, they can play WITH HIM, they just don't like it.

And that has been the story of the last 3 years since LB left. These guys have no one to blame, not Joe, not Mo Evans, not Darko and not Flip Saunders, for the fact that the inmates have run the asylum, and when the going gets rough, they elect to go fishing.

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I don't trust mainstream media generally.

We defer to expert opinions (a pro scout) because we recognize they are an expert. We do it every day. Politics, science, finances, we always look to experts for guidance, because there is too much information for all of us to know, all of the time.

My point is, if we don't know for sure that he is a scout, or even who he is a scout for, how does he have any more credibility than any other scout? He could be the worst scout or the best scout, and surely that would colour his comments. Not all scouts being equal is what I am saying.

I prefer direct quotes from people I know, who I can put a name to, who have to be accountable for what they say.

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Why use the view of someone who you don't find credible to support your argument that the players don't like playing with AI and thus don't give "effort"?

Trading CB was the start of Joe breaking that sort of cartel up. He'll take a wrecking ball to established orders in the offseason. When Tay and Rip are alone, they'll be forced to find new friendships, and reach out to their teammates.

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Or it could just be as simple as AI doesn't play well with others, and it's not working on the court in a basketball sense. Previous history with AI would lend credibility to this view. Maybe the spring in the step and the renewed spirit you're seeing is because the games are close, we actually have a chance to win, and the execution is now producing positive results.

Really? Can you specify? b/c i didn't see it. Again it's a completely subjective take. You're reading into "body language" and making assumptions based off that that fit into a view you already believe.

Seriously, the point I am making, is that what many people think is irrelevant. Let's not outsource our thinking.

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You might not have seen it because you don't watch every game. I do.

You misapplied my statement to be an argumentum ad populum. I'm not saying it is true because everyone agrees with me. I am saying that a lot of people watch the games, and saw exactly what I am talking about. The sky isn't blue because we all agree it is. The sky is blue because we all observe it is blue. Big difference.

Or it could just be as simple as AI doesn't play well with others, and it's not working on the court in a basketball sense.

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Perhaps. We discussed it in podshow tonight. AI played in Stuckey's 38 and 40 point games. AI is not holding back Stuckey. And we all know Rip could score like crazy off the bench, so we know that moving Rip to the bench, wasn't causing losses because he played well, and we've won without him.

I have nothing to say to that. I'm not engaging in that stupid argument again.

You misapplied my statement to be an argumentum ad populum. I'm not saying it is true because everyone agrees with me. I am saying that a lot of people watch the games, and saw exactly what I am talking about. The sky isn't blue because we all agree it is. The sky is blue because we all observe it is blue. Big difference.

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Which is exactly what i was doing when you said it to me. I wasn't stating that b/c these people agree that he sucks, i must be right that he sucks.

Perhaps. We discussed it in podshow tonight. AI played in Stuckey's 38 and 40 point games. AI is not holding back Stuckey. And we all know Rip could score like crazy off the bench, so we know that moving Rip to the bench, wasn't causing losses because he played well, and we've won without him.

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Does the caliber of opponent factor into the thinking? Or perhaps the fact that Rip's defense in the SL might be a major reason for the change? Prince mentioned how they were starting the games in a hole, and then having to make it up constantly. Maybe that's a factor as well.

It's too easy to say well now they try; before they didn't. It completely ignores everything else especially the liability defensively that AI/Stuck backcourt became.

It's too easy to say well now they try; before they didn't. It completely ignores everything else especially the liability defensively that AI/Stuck backcourt became.

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The AI/Stuckey backcourt had no problems beating Billups in the rarified Denver air, on the road.

I'm not taking the easy way out. I'm agreeing with Marc Stein and what he claims to be hearing. They don't dislike AI, they don't want to play with him. It's pretty much par for the course with this group. The reason why Billups had to be traded, was that there was no way Stuckey would have been able to start. It speaks volumes about the direction of the organization when Rip and AI, two All-Stars are sent to the bench and there is never any question if Stuckey should be making way for either of them.

Your anger towards AI is misdirected. But then, I have been saying that for months. He didn't ask to come here, and I don't feel that he has given any less than anyone else on in our uniform.

Like Rip said, "it ain't gunna happen" about going to the bench. How prophetic those words were.

The AI/Stuckey backcourt had no problems beating Billups in the rarified Denver air, on the road.

I'm not taking the easy way out. I'm agreeing with Marc Stein and what he claims to be hearing. They don't dislike AI, they don't want to play with him. It's pretty much par for the course with this group. The reason why Billups had to be traded, was that there was no way Stuckey would have been able to start. It speaks volumes about the direction of the organization when Rip and AI, two All-Stars are sent to the bench and there is never any question if Stuckey should be making way for either of them.

Your anger towards AI is misdirected. But then, I have been saying that for months. He didn't ask to come here, and I don't feel that he has given any less than anyone else on in our uniform.

Like Rip said, "it ain't gunna happen" about going to the bench. How prophetic those words were.

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I don't think that was the case; AI came in and started. If we played well AI would still be starting. In fact i remember you stating that saying the trade was for Stuckey to start is "revitionisist history".

I'm not angry at AI; this has very little to do with AI. I haven't been on the "effort" bandwagon for a long time. I believe that AI doesn't fit with the SL. I've said from day 1 that i wanted to see him w/ AA b/c i thought it had the potential to become an extremely dangerous backcourt, but what this is more about is players not trying. I've had this argument during the Flip era where people have stated well they're just not trying hard enough; it's has nothing to do with coaching, line-up, etc.

I saw frustration from the players in the previous SL. You saw pouting.

You see Sheed sitting there angrily and assume he's mad about Rip being benched when in reality he could just be pissed off no one got him gatorade.

I don't think that was the case; AI came in and started. If we played well AI would still be starting. In fact i remember you stating that saying the trade was for Stuckey to start is "revitionisist history".

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It is revisionist history. That is not how it was sold when AI was brought in.

You misapplied my statement to be an argumentum ad populum. I'm not saying it is true because everyone agrees with me. I am saying that a lot of people watch the games, and saw exactly what I am talking about. The sky isn't blue because we all agree it is. The sky is blue because we all observe it is blue. Big difference.

Perhaps. We discussed it in podshow tonight. AI played in Stuckey's 38 and 40 point games. AI is not holding back Stuckey. And we all know Rip could score like crazy off the bench, so we know that moving Rip to the bench, wasn't causing losses because he played well, and we've won without him.

Maybe. But that's not the scuttlebutt.

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This sounds to me like a whole lot of verbage about nothing.

We lost to Atlanta with AI starting, and just now with AI not playing. Either way, it comes down to the coach overplaying the combination of Sheed and Dyess - which lost us both games. There was no difference between the two games in effort, not one bit. The one thing that remained the same between the games - a coach who can't get the rotations right.

God, I hope that's not true. He might be partially retarded if that is his downfall. And that would explain the foul thing too.

Play #1- run around and set picks
Play #2- run around and set picks
Etc...

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i don't know about now.... but at the start of the season it was def assignments that he was missing... and no i can't find the quotes... but I remember currey saying he missed alot of the switches and such and got lucky alot of times because of his quickness he could recover but that in itself lead to alot of his silly fouls.

So maybe thats the isssue to why he isn't playing....

I would think that wouldn't be as big a deal if he's running up and down the court with a man to man only defense with ai though....

I know. He didn't fit when we beat the Lakers. He didn't fit when Stuckey scored 40 on the Bulls or 38 on the Queens.

He didn't fit when we beat the Spurs. Or when we beat the Cavs. He didn't fit during the 7 game win streak. He didn't fit against the Magic.

He didn't fit with Rip, he didn't fit without Rip.

He didn't fit with both Sheed and Rip out.

The objective evidence is overwhelmingly in your favour. I yield the point.

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You can name games all you want. Ignore the 8 game losing streak. Do whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact that the SL as currently constructed is better suited for a half-court game, and that AI is not effective in half-court and his defense gets even more exposed in a slow paced game.

I can sit here and list many things wrong with the games that you've named, and you can continue to reference a win streak that didn't include Sheed, and took a miracle shot to beat the Clippers, but it's not going to make a difference. You seem more concerned about the "mistreatment" of AI by the org,fans,etc. than anything i'm saying anyway.

It is revisionist history. That is not how it was sold when AI was brought in.

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Right so then why are you stating this;

The reason why Billups had to be traded, was that there was no way Stuckey would have been able to start. It speaks volumes about the direction of the organization when Rip and AI, two All-Stars are sent to the bench and there is never any question if Stuckey should be making way for either of them.