A demonstration of the next release of Novell's Linux for desktops drew cheers and applause Wednesday, although the final version of the software is not expected for some months. Nat Friedman, the company's vice president of Linux desktop engineering, showed Novell Linux Desktop 10 playing videos and MP3 music files, and exchanging music and photos with an iPod and a digital camera, in a keynote presentation at the Solutions Linux conference and trade show on the outskirts of Paris.

Great. I'm liking novell's software. Suse is great but needs a better package manager. I love that they care what the software looks like, and ease of use. Banshee, F-Spot, Tomboy, Beagle, all great software.I can't wait to see what comes next.
"A"

Actually SUSE has had one for years: APT.
Now they decided that they want to phase it out in favour of SMART, which isn't a bad thing, but at the moment it has fewer features and is less user friendly than APT.

The code for XGL developed at Novell will be made available next week, Friedman says. However, Reveman has already returned some of it to the open-source development community, according to bulletin board postings.

This could be the most interesting part of the article... Perhaps the world will now see all the XGL goodness created at Novell...

Agreed, thus far nothing in the Linux world is honestly on par with Windows Vista or OSX's graphics system, so it will be most welcome to see a linux distro that comes with XGL running for regular users, no compiling needed.

Agreed, thus far nothing in the Linux world is honestly on par with Windows Vista or OSX's graphics system, so it will be most welcome to see a linux distro that comes with XGL running for regular users, no compiling needed.

Just because they showed off Xgl doesn't mean its ready and it doesn't mean that it will be shipped by default. You will probably be able to install it from a package (just like in other distros like Ubuntu) but Xgl is at least a year away from being shipped by default on the desktop of a major distro.

In fact, its obvious why Novell didn't release any Xgl code for so long- they wanted a neat demo to show off that nobody else has. Oh well, they pay for it so its ok.

So, one week until we find out if the pending code bomb is acceptable to the X community. Not having seen it I really can't comment on the odds of course, but there are a few possible hang ups with licensing, coding standards, who knows. I hope there are none, but if there are there will be extra effort redoing things, effort that would not have been necessary with a little openness. If anyone from the outside had at least been able to look at the code as it progressed, I wouldn't have these worries.

On the other hand, if people had been able to look, there would surely have been complaints and requests that Novell do such and such a trivially different way, and it would likely have taken them longer.

Of course, if something needs to be redone for integration into X, that will be time wasted anyway. In a week, I guess we'll know if their methods worked out (they obviously did for Novell, I mean for FLOSS in general).

Thanks. Although you should tell article to keep up, not me (yes, I follow xorg mailing list and I know about code drop in January).

[from article]
"The code for XGL developed at Novell will be made available next week, Friedman says. However, Reveman has already returned some of it to the open-source development community, according to bulletin board postings."

It is just common for people to be inquisitive about some things when developed in quiet. Like stetic for example (yes, I know it is in SVN and regularly updated, but some people like me want to actualy see that in use from binary packages at least).

p.s. I bet this is not the answer on "What" part of the question:) Maybe I souded too much like "conspiracy theory", but that was the least of my intention

According to Mr. Reveman, Xgl is currently able to fully accelerate xcompmgr, but only for people running the proprietary ATI (fglrx) or nVIDIA drivers. On the other hand, if you use an OpenGL composite manager, you should be able to get good performance even on DRI drivers--so long as you have a fast code path for copying pixels from the back buffer to the front buffer. This will be particularly useful for people (like me) who are running ATI Radeon 7000-9250 cards on the DRI r100 and r200 drivers--it might even be useful for those of you who run Radeon 9500-9800 (r300-driven) cards on the DRI drivers.

It's also suggested that the current glxcompmgr should not be cleaned up (as it might be a waste of time once the GL compositer is ready):

It's quiet lately regarding XGL-related development, it seems everyone is preparing something for X dev conference. I hope for better r300 DRI support and preliminary DRI memory management (=important also for XGL). I also hope they were able to improve Xegl, which,unlike Xglx "hack", is much more cleaner and more flexible approach (meaning also more work to do in underlaying graphic driver layers).

I think it is a good thing to have Novell pushing Xgl. They can influence graphic card manufacturers to produce suitable drivers for XGL including all needed extensions for Xgl or even (I hope) MesaScreenSurface for xegl? (Of course this support isn' needed in open source drivers)

Like he says in the article:
"Now we have a legal way to do this for free that's open source"

A legal way of doing this for free that is open source would be to get the patent overturned - and people are simply assuming that this patent implies something legally binding just because other companies have paid up.

You get some short-term joy out of this, but in the medium to long-term it just creates more and more problems for open source software. You'll get every tom, dick and harry patenting something to make companies like Novell and others license something for the wider community.

Back up there cowboy. This is supposed to be an accomplishment? What am I missing, exactly?

Extremely sadly, and with some regret, I have to agree with you. Playing MP3s, viewing pictures and doing something, not completely special, but pre-planned with them - all using the next version of a distribution that isn't selling and that absolutely no one outside of Novell uses?! Yer, whatever. None of that stuff actually matters as well, just to make things worse.

I know there are some people with memories like goldfishes who keep coming back for more over many years to lap up some eye candy and hype that will never amount to anything, but I'm just not one of them. I am singularly, and totally, unimpressed with some peoples' "vision" for desktop Linux. Surely by now they, and others, would have realised that it just isn't going to work.

I agree that what they demoed isn't anything to be excited about, but I don't think that the linux desktop vision (if that even exists) is not good. Having played with the Vista betas, I'm sure hoping that the linux desktop goes in the opposite direction.

I am singularly, and totally, unimpressed with some peoples' "vision" for desktop Linux.

Not this ;-). Dan Kegel has outlined an absolute tip of the iceberg as to what's wrong, and forking out for dodgy MP3 patent licenses, copying stuff to an iPod and copying pictures to a web site doesn't cover any of it.

It would simply take too long to explain, because it involves ignoring the desktop for a while and concentrating on trying to cement open source software's place on the server-side of things. And no, that hasn't happened. Want to know why people feel there should be a drop-in, totally compatible replacement for Exchange and people want desktop Linux to fit into an Active Directory network? There's your problem. You then build that infrastructure up to something usable that will make people ignore Windows Server, and that gives you the right open backdrop for developing an open source desktop and the right infrastructure to support it.

Boring I know, and not as exciting as playing a few MP3s, but there it is.

For someone who has no clue what the topic of the article and the discussion is, and tries to score cheap points over things he knows zilch about that's pretty amazing. Perhaps you should try reading what someone has actually written:

because it involves ignoring the desktop for a while and concentrating on trying to cement open source software's place on the server-side of things. And no, that hasn't happened. Want to know why people feel there should be a drop-in, totally compatible replacement for Exchange and people want desktop Linux to fit into an Active Directory network? There's your problem. You then build that infrastructure up to something usable that will make people ignore Windows Server, and that gives you the right open backdrop for developing an open source desktop and the right infrastructure to support it.

You're not going to understand what any of that means, obviously, because neither does anyone else or anyone at Novell. You're in good company there.

For someone who has no clue what the topic of the article and the discussion is, and tries to score cheap points oevr things he knows zilch about that's pretty amazing. Perhaps you should try reading what someone has actually written:

Translation, "I really have no idea"

You're not going to understand what any of that means, obviously, because neither does anyone else or anyone at Novell.

Says the number one anti-Novell troll out there, [sarcasm]yeah, we believe you.[/sarcasm]

It would simply take too long to explain, because it involves ignoring the desktop for a while and concentrating on trying to cement open source software's place on the server-side of things.

Your vision for desktop linux is ignoring it?
This is the classic mistake of trying to allocate "resources" in the OSS community like you would in a company. Linux desktop developers are not linux server developers. If you stop them from developing linux desktop applications, then they wont develop anything at all, or develop applications for Windows or OSX.

Linux on the server is progressing, completely independant of Linux on the desktop. Sure, maybe right now it is not ideal, because people are having trouble running Linux desktops in a windows server environment, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to interoperate.

Throwing up our hands and saying "well screw this, let's just wait until we have total server domination and can only communicate with open protocols" is completely silly.

Extremely sadly, and with some regret, I have to agree with you. Playing MP3s, viewing pictures and doing something, not completely special, but pre-planned with them - all using the next version of a distribution that isn't selling and that absolutely no one outside of Novell uses?!

I can only wonder why you wouldn't think this is a good thing. One of the biggest complaints about Linux on the desktop was the inability to do just these types of things. Sure they seem trivial but it is one less obstacle in the way of acceptance on the desktop. If you haven't noticed Linux has been gaining popularity on the desktop for years now. I'm glad joe user can finally do things like this. After all computers have become more and more about media like music, movies, and pictures, in recent years. This along with the development of XGL will hopefully put Linux on par (and even surpass in some areas) Windows and OSX.

I guess it's just kinda funny that when Apple allows you to do all these things in such an easy way people rave but when Linux does it it is unimpressive.

One of the biggest complaints about Linux on the desktop was the inability to do just these types of things.

I've been able to do those things on a Linux distribution for years, and it's only recently that it has suddenly become a problem. What's new now?

Basically what's happened is that in trying to get people to move internally to the NLD Novell have encountered problems with a lot of people using their computers for things that, strictly speaking, they shouldn't be doing. Namely, plugging their iPod in, copying MP3s, doing things with their photo collection and playing with eye candy in the form of wibbly, wobbly windows. Perhaps they're trying desperately to convince people that desktop Linux will work for them, trying to convince them to actually use it and/or get them to use Gnome. Who knows?

It's nice that people can do those things, but considering what the NLD is actually supposed to do and what it's aimed for as a product this demonstration seems somewhat out of sync.

I've been able to do those things on a Linux distribution for years, and it's only recently that it has suddenly become a problem. What's new now?

You're not joe user now are you, and I'm sure doing these types of things required some setup in the past. I think you're missing the point.

Basically what's happened is that in trying to get people to move internally to the NLD Novell have encountered problems with a lot of people using their computers for things that, strictly speaking, they shouldn't be doing. Namely, plugging their iPod in, copying MP3s, doing things with their photo collection and playing with eye candy in the form of wibbly, wobbly windows.

You're joking right?

It's nice that people can do those things, but considering what the NLD is actually supposed to do and what it's aimed for as a product this demonstration seems somewhat out of sync.

>I've been able to do those things on a Linux distribution for years, and it's only recently that it has
>suddenly become a problem. What's new now?

You're not joe user now are you, and I'm sure doing these types of things required some setup in the past. I think you're missing the point.

No he's not missing the point, as it used to work out of the box before Novell bought Suse. And it works out of the box in Mandriva and several other distributions.

>Basically what's happened is that in trying to get people to move internally to the NLD Novell have
>encountered problems with a lot of people using their computers for things that, strictly speaking, they
>shouldn't be doing. Namely, plugging their iPod in, copying MP3s, doing things with their photo collection
>and playing with eye candy in the form of wibbly, wobbly windows.

You're joking right?

No again, I think you miss the major point of what he says. That is internal dektop migration at novell, and usage of NLD. If you where a manager at Novell would you have you have your employees do that stuff on company time?

>It's nice that people can do those things, but considering
>what the NLD is actually supposed to do and what it's aimed for as a product this demonstration seems
>somewhat out of sync.

So tell me then, what are they aiming for?

From Novells pages: "Novell Linux Desktop is a desktop operating system and office-productivity environment that enables businesses to use Linux and open source with confidence." That alone or thogether with Novells talk about NLD being their enterprise ready desktop solution.

So tell us, how does playing with iPods, MP3s, photo collections and eye candy help increase office-productivity and give any enterprise customer confidence in NLD meeting their needs?

So tell us, how does playing with iPods, MP3s, photo collections and eye candy help increase office-productivity and give any enterprise customer confidence in NLD meeting their needs?

There are many reasons.

For instance, customers that use a Linux Desktop will complain if they can not listen to music while they are working. We might have different opinions about productivity [1] and listening to music, but if your Linux will not play music it is just out of consideration in many enterprise deployments.

In general, this is a matter of "You have to be this tall to ride". Both Windows and MacOS have raised the bar on what people expect on a desktop computer to do out of the box.

A few years ago a vendor could sell a computer with nothing but MSDOS and command.com as its interface. The requirements today are much larger, people expect more.

Photo management is something important to many people using computers, it is just a common place activity and its only going to become more common. Having a solid tool to manage is just part of having a complete offering on the desktop.

Besides, the productivity of Mono is so large that it was possible to write F-spot not only on record time, but have it done by a single engineer.

We are more productive with Mono than with anythign else.

[1] PeopleWare argues effectively that listening to music while doing certain kinds of tasks reduces the effectiveness of your brain.

Showing your ignorance? As is says in the article, if you had read it, Linux has not been able to play MP3s out of the box for legal reasons. Novell has developed their own MP3 player under some special kind of open source license. This is a good thing. Interopability is a good thing, and this appears to be what Novell is working on.

Like the original poster said - wow - as difficult as that might be to take. Many other systems can play MP3s out of the box.

[sarcasm] Look mama, another genius here [/sarcasm]

All you other "many other systems" aren't free. They bought license for distribution with OS. And in the end it is you who bought patent licenses for vendors that upt out that OS. Meaning no cost for vendor. They just charged you, or basically resell you additional products with the product you bought.

You get Linux for free. Meaning distribution provider would have to pay license without geting any money from you. Meaning cost for vendor without gain from you. This is why linux ships without MP3 support.

For normal people... It is just addition and substraction with a little piece of sane mind and prefferably at least one year of school. You don't have to be afraid to think that deep.

For reasons I have outlined. Have you tried yo buy a product from Novell? No, I thought not. Shut up then.

First of all, the way to explain yourself isn't the best and politest, but one of the worst I've seen. Also, I don't think why you should blame a product that isn't in the market right now. If you want to blame other Novell products, fine, but don't even tell about a product under development -no matter your reasons or arguments, it is UNDER development and also hasn't be RELEASED-.

I don't see a reason to keep blaming again a company. It makes me remember the old days in the OS community blaming MS all the time.

Either you come up with a meaningful reply to what's being said or you simply end up being "this kind of poster" ;-).

You don't argument, you just try to convince yourself. That's fine with me. Also, I don't have a problem with you expressing your opinion. The problem is that your opinion isn't exactly well-formed, so that leaves you as a troll, cause you don't show arguments, and only talk about OTHER's arguments.

Although i must admit OSX graphics is very apealing.Vista isn't even a bad copy of OSX.But watchout Linux seems to have the right track insight and simply has an awsome distributed (OSS) development network,doesn't take long to gain a lot in graphics.

i know it's hard to keep up with everything that's been happening in the open source space, but one would expect Novell as an entity to know. i wonder if Nat was misquoted or if he's just unaware ...

not that i'd be surprised. their "director of the linux program office" was unaware of what freedesktop.org was when i spoke with him at a conference last month, even though he spoke about the open source desktop in his presentation. =)

i don't think novell is to blame, its more Nat i guess. notice you always read stuff like "The Linux user environment has ..." and stuff like that, while they're talking about gnome. gnome is not A desktop environment for linux, and GTK is not A graphical linux toolkit, no.... gnome is THE (one and only) desktop environment, idem dito GTK is THE graphical toolkit for linux.

now i wouldn't say that if i where a gnome developer, or writing an announcement for gnome - its most likely used by less users than 'the other DE', and it has a minority of FOSS developers (yes, most gnome dev's are be payed for their work, and KDE is done by volunteers).

anyway, this might not be to blame on the gnomes at all - the development of Gnome is mostly steered by Red Hat and Novell - money money money. so its mostly big $$ corporate PR talk coming from official gnome announcements, generally speaking. i think gnome (at least its users) would be better of without Red Hat and Novell...

i don't think novell is to blame, its more Nat i guess. notice you always read stuff like "The Linux user environment has ..." and stuff like that, while they're talking about gnome. gnome is not A desktop environment for linux, and GTK is not A graphical linux toolkit, no.... gnome is THE (one and only) desktop environment

Yer. That's the big problem I have with all of this - it's been going on for years and people still swallow it. It wouldn't be so bad if things were actually moving forwards and the reality matched the hype on occasion, but that's just not happening. It's extremely tiring and doesn't do desktop Linux or the cause of the open source desktop any good really. It's just soundbites. I find it amusing that they're doing all of this to try and convince their own employees of Linux and Gnome as a desktop...... :-).

I mean, KDE has a truly great app in Digikam, a truly great app in Amarok and has had an iPod slave for some time. Those are facts. What are people supposed to do? Have somebody from the Suse side of the company working more on KDE swing from the chandeliers about it?

more the attitude they SOMETIMES show. i say sometimes, as gnome's can be very cool, too

i remember an announcement for 2.13 (not sure) in which the announcing person told what socks he did wear... i loved it

but their tendency to seemingly ignore the existence of other DE's but also other toolkits like WxWidgets for example can be annoying. worst thing is, KDE seems to take it over, lately. bummer, esp for such an community-driven project.

to the person above here telling i'm a known troll - i would have a negative comment score, wouldn't i?

Don't forget SUN... Most of the first HIG and ally stuff in earlier gnome was done by SUN. Also, If you look at the gnome system administration guide and much of the other documentation, you will notice it was initially written or is maintained by SUN. The Java Desktop System is a very nice rebranded gnome desktop. Thanks to SUN making JDS nice, it made gnome nice.

This doesn't really come over as news. When did a trade demo not end in applause? It would have been news if Nat Friedman's demonstration had been greeted with boos, catcalls and a hail of tomatoes. There is nothing radically new in this demo, just refinements of what exists already. And it still leaves Novell with the same problems, the same disgruntled shareholders and the same view of Red Hat, accelerating steadily further and further ahead of them because Red Hat are concentrating on where the money is, in the enterprise server room. Even folks who like Linux don't really think it's going to be rescued by an mp3 player.

And it still leaves Novell with the same problems, the same disgruntled shareholders and the same view of Red Hat, accelerating steadily further and further ahead of them because Red Hat are concentrating on where the money is, in the enterprise server room. Even folks who like Linux don't really think it's going to be rescued by an mp3 player.

Not sure, since there isn't really a default installation if you use a netinsall iso which is why I've always done. This gives you just enough to get going and you then call down the rest from the wires. You may also have to add an extra repository to the apt sources - can't remember. But after that you are good to go, which is a lot simpler than what I had to do in, say, SuSE.

There are many Linux distros that have support for MP3 (and more) out of the box. The thing they all have in common is that you have to pay for them.

Bull, there are lots of Linux distributions with support for MP3 out of the box which you don't have to pay anything for. The biggest one goes by the name Mandriva (yes in the no cost version too), and there are several others.

If NLD becomes the first free Linux distro to ship an MP3 decoder

As already stated it's not, and NLD is one of those you have to pay for btw. So it's already excluded by your previous argument.

"Bull, there are lots of Linux distributions with support for MP3 out of the box which you don't have to pay anything for. The biggest one goes by the name Mandriva (yes in the no cost version too), and there are several others. "

"Dead wrong. Why do you think the PLF exists? ( http://plf.zarb.org/ ). You want mp3 in free Mandriva, you have to get it from the unofficial PLF."

No, you don't. MP3 _encoding_ (lame, liblame) is in PLF. MP3 _decoding_ is in main. Buy a copy of MDV 2006, take it out of the box, install it, run any music player and open an MP3 file, and it will work. Or download a copy of Mandriva 2006 Free, install it, play an MP3 file, and it will work.

"If there are any free distros that do so already, they do so illegally (in the US anyway)."

That's a rather simplistic way of looking at things. How do you know that the distros in question don't have a private agreement with Fraunhofer? (No, I'm not saying that any distro I know of does. I'm just floating the possibility.)

"Regardless, the software Novell has developed will presumably be made available to be shipped by distros that are free (legally), which will be, despite your beliefs, a new thing."

Just to clarify on the above post, the article talks about Banshee, which uses gstreamer as its actual playback engine (well, mainly gstreamer, it can also use helix or xine engines if you choose). Fluendo developed and got the permissive license for the gstreamer MP3 playback plugin in question.

And to clarify _further_ (sorry, I'm longwinded today...) the reason I say it's simplistic to say it's "illegal" to distribute an MP3-playing distro in the US is that patent law is civil law. Civil law is not like criminal law: there's no patent police who drive around arresting patent violators. The civil law exists as a way to facilitate certain civil and commercial relationships; the courts that deal with civil law are a kind of last-resort arbitration system for cases where two people or commercial entities have a dispute they can't resolve any other way. Ask absolutely any company lawyer and they'll tell you they'd far rather be able to settle a dispute with a private arrangement than with a lawsuit. A lot of people don't really appreciate this and tend to think along the lines of "OMG if you decode an MP3 in America Fraunhofer will set the FBI on you!!!"

A lot of people don't really appreciate this and tend to think along the lines of "OMG if you decode an MP3 in America Fraunhofer will set the FBI on you!!!"

That exactly describes the situation. Because lawyers and corporate people at Novell, Red Hat and other places have no backbone they think "Oh my God" and cough up for the slightest thing. I am pretty disappointed that Novell, Red Hat and Ubuntu are caving into something that has no real legal basis, and appearing to give a ridiculously general patent legal weight.

Well, we do not use the fantastic fluendo work, because our work predates the Fluendo announcement, we worked together with Real to get this functionality into the product.

Now, that is only one part of the equation. The other part of the equation has to do with the "host" for the player. Most "host" software is GPL, which means that you are not allowed to redistribute a GPL piece of software if you can not redistribute also the rights to the patent to play back the MP3 (because MP3 is patented).

So although there are lots of great "hosts" (or players), the problem is that the license is in direct contradiction with the GPL.

Our new player (Banshee) is licensed under the terms of the MIT X11 license, which means that we can link with code that has patents without infringing any licenses.

Everyone distributing GPL players with the MP3 patents are doing so without transfering the rights to the end user of the patents, and hence invalidate the GPL permission to use the software.

"That's a rather simplistic way of looking at things. How do you know that the distros in question don't have a private agreement with Fraunhofer? (No, I'm not saying that any distro I know of does. I'm just floating the possibility.) "

They don't have an agreement if they're using libmad, which is licensed under the GPL. From the GPL:
"Finally, any free program is threatened constantly by software patents. We wish to avoid the danger that redistributors of a free program will individually obtain patent licenses, in effect making the
program proprietary. To prevent this, we have made it clear that any patent must be licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all."

"Novell hasn't developed any software. "

Novell wrote a music player (Banshee) that can shipped with the patented codec from Fluendo. Rhythmbox, Amarok and other GPL players can't. (edit: Novell is not using the fluendo gstreamer plugin at all, so please ignore this).

An agreement is not necessarily a license. Fraunhofer saying "we promise not to sue you if you distribute mad" (or whatever other plugin) isn't a patent license...they've effectively made such undertakings in the past, for free products.

Therefore, unless you happen know of some case law which would support your argument, a GPL'd media player can definitely be distributed which relies upon GStreamer, which itself is distributed with a patent encumbered plugin. I know the FSF has strongly hinted otherwise, but they are posturing. Insofar as I'm aware, nobody has ever succesfully tried to force GPL compliance under this interpretation.

In the case of media players using Gstreamer, those media players don't even technically play media files. They rely on GStreamer to do that for them. Thus whether the mp3 plugin is included or not changes the funtionality of the player not one whit. Media player + GStreamer + plugin does not represent a functional whole as the plugin is entirely seperable. Further, at least in the case of Amarok, GStreamer is only one of multiple media backends which can be used.

Modular software design makes it much harder to enforce the GPL. For instance, the GPL does not extend across a CORBA.

Re: "If NLD becomes the first free Linux distro to ship an MP3 decoder, then that is pretty big news."

To clarify for those not familiar with Novell Linux Desktop (NLD) Novell is targeting the enterprise sector such as businesses, education institutions and governments not home consumers. So this means no "free" NLD as they will not at this time provide an entirely open source version. Those wanting to use strictly open source SUSE Linux can obtain it from OpenSUSE.org but it will lack proprietory software/codecs.

Re: "But what is interesting is that they have decided to include a MP3 decoder from the start. And that IS news. There's no linux distribution at the moment that plays MP3 out of the box."

Actually SUSE Linux 10 retail version plays MP3 files "out of the box" as you called it. Where as the OSS version of SUSE Linux available from OpenSUSE.org does not include any proprietory software/codecs. While the codecs can be obtained through various methods online most consumers are happy to purchase a complete distribution where little set-up is required. Also it's nice getting included technical support and printed Admin/User manuals with the retail version which can help new Linux users migrate.

To clarify for those not familiar with Novell Linux Desktop (NLD) Novell is targeting the enterprise sector such as businesses, education institutions and governments not home consumers.

It's a myth that Linux-haters are trying to spread. They act as if Linux has "failed" on the desktop, when in reality its market share growth is outpacing everything else. HP by itself sells about 1m Linux desktops every year, about 1/4 of Apple's total 2005 sales (and Apple had a great year in 2005).

I think Americans in general underestimate the success Linux has had on the desktop, for a number of reasons. First, they probably don't see the hundreds of thousands of Linux desktops at work in universities, engineering firms, etc. Second, a huge percentage of Linux desktop sales are in Europe, Asia, and Latin America. Of HP's 1m Linux desktops per year, only 15% are sold within the United States. Meanwhile, they see Apple's healthy US sales, and assume that the success translates to all other markets. Of course, Apple's sales outside the US are much lower than they are inside the US. Indeed, Apple sells far fewer machines in Europe than in the United States, even though Europe is a bigger overall market for PCs. Its sales in Asia (including Japan), the Middle East, and Africa are by comparison tiny.

What functionality does Win 95 have that a modern Linux desktop doesn't have? By modern Linux desktop I am thinking Knoppix 4.0.2 Live CD which uses KDE 3.4.x which is the last version of desktop linux I have used.
I admit even a year ago Linux was lacking in some functionality but now outside of universal software installation I can't think of anything that Win 95 is better at than KDE 3.4.x. I don't know about GNOME so if you use it as an example I will simply have to take your word for it.

When Linux gets past Windows 95 in functionality and usability, THEN linux will be ok for desktop. Other than that it's just another case of pure drivel from the OSS "SOS" fanatics.

Linux on the desktop isn't even close to being there.

I was trying to avoid getting into useless discussions but I strongly disagree with you. Right now, Linux lacks the application pool available to Windows, but when it comes to the desktop, KDE wipes the floor with Windows. Explorer is not even near close KDE comparing features and functionality.

Regarding my usage, Linux/KDE already offer replacements that are better or at least on par with their Windows counterparts: Apollon, KTorrent, K3B, Amarok, Kxmame, Konqueror, Kmail, KGet, Konversation, ZSNES, Gngeo and tons more... Thatīs not to mention bash and the other usual suspects that years ahead anything that Windows has to offer.

Yes, there is some caveats. Everybody knows them. Until the hardware manufacturers and ISVs donīt start target Linux for their products, things will be a bit harsh.

But I canīt even start to imagine how you got the conclusion that Windows 95 is anywhere close to functionality of a current Linux distro. Seriously! I would say that Windows XP canīt hold a candle next to KDE (IMHO). Iīm looking forward to see what Vista will bring to the table, but XP... Pff! Puhleeeeze!

"When Linux gets past Windows 95 in functionality and usability, THEN linux will be ok for desktop"

Windows 95 was not a desktop OS; It was a CRASH BOX OS rather, and I was not happy using that crappy OS. That crashability of Windows 9x led me to freeze my usage and purchase of software for windows. It felt like donating a lung for a comatose patient. I will accept a software crash but I will not accept OS (kernel+GUI) crash.

Linux now passed windows 2000 long time ago, but what It didn't pass is the great 3rd party software developed by Microsoft, Adobe, Macromedia, discreet,...and the list is so long.
Now if linux can persuade big SOFTWARE and HARDWARE parties to support linux with their products, then will will witness a world filled up with linux and linux only.

It's not exactly difficult for desktop Linux numbers to increase given that they started from zero only 10 years (or so) ago...!

Seriously though, desktop Linux needs rescuing from itself. It'd have far more chance of succeeding if it could focus on one desktop manager. All the KDE/Gnome/*insert others* managers don't help. Linux needs to focus on one desktop manager that all applications happily run under.

Its interesting to note that for someone who does not care about the Linux desktop or Novell, segedenum is a very active flamer on anything related to Novell, Gnome and Mono.

I think most of his flames are in response to his own fears. I do not know the gentleman, but he exhibits a scarcity mentality, not an abundance one. He fears that if people spend time on things that are not aligned with what he wants he will loose something in some form.

I wanted to correct a mistaken claim about Novell and the desktop. The Linux market today is much larger on the server than on the desktop, and there are many more people at Novell working on server-side elements of Linux than there are desktop people.

I guess the desktop gets more attention because it is very visual, its where all of us are spending our time in front of a computer. Most of us do not sit next to a rack mounted server cluster getting excited about 2 green lights going on.

Its interesting to note that for someone who does not care about the Linux desktop or Novell, segedenum is a very active flamer on anything related to Novell, Gnome and Mono.

I never said I didn't care about the Linux desktop or Novell, it's just that I've never seen someone cry wolf so often for so long, that's all. You might want to keep that in mind.

I notice people are quick to use the words flame and troll, but they never do actually reply to the points made..... Whether that's because they don't want to or can't, I don't know. Probably a combination of both.

I do not know the gentleman, but he exhibits a scarcity mentality, not an abundance one.

Wow, really? Nice try, but wrong.

He fears that if people spend time on things that are not aligned with what he wants he will loose something in some form.

No. I like things that work, and have a fighting chance of working ;-). I know many people absolutely cannot comprehend black and white thinking in any way shape or form, but on the subject of the open source desktop a certain amount of it is required. It's the main reason why it definitely won't happen, which is the word I believe many people use.

I wanted to correct a mistaken claim about Novell and the desktop. The Linux market today is much larger on the server than on the desktop

As a Linux user who *does* care about the Linux desktop and is excited about what Novell is cookin' up, I ask, "Can you throw a dog a bone"?

How about a clip or two of XGL and the other cool things you're working on there? It's going to be tough to choose a desktop now that FC5 is including Mono. Maybe that would help me come down on the side of Novell

for an outside observer (i'm not actively involved in gnome) it looks like all this money is poured into gnome, while it barely can keep up with KDE - would it not be far more efficient to put money on KDE? also considdering Red Hat is and has been throwing money on gnome, too - it would set Novell apart from the competition. and many ex-windows users seem to prefer KDE anyway...

just on technical merits, KDE seems ahead - isn't it better to build on stone than on sand?

i might be mistaken, but it looks like KDE 4 is gonna leave gnome far far behind anyway, why not go for the winning team?

First of all, you mention "all this money is poured into gnome", and that's not exactly what happens. The main reason distributors like Novell and Red Hat hire people to work on a piece of software (GNOME, X, Linux, GCC, Glibc, binutils, OpenOffice, etc) is that it gives them a better position to support that software. They can more easily fix a problem, and they can more easily add a feature that their customers request.

You then mention "while it barely can keep up with KDE", which is not a fact (flamebait actually, but we're way past that in this thread). Where can GNOME not keep up with KDE? Accessibility? Usability?

"and many ex-windows users seem to prefer KDE anyway..."

Maybe it's because it' more similar to Windows, heh? The thing is, that may not be the best way to sell a product that competes with Windows. Maybe Novell wants their customers to feel like they're using an exciting different system when they switch to their products, and not like they're using a system that reminds them of Windows. Of course it's important that Windows users will be able to use the software without a lot of problems, and that's why these companies do usability testing with their products.

"just on technical merits, KDE seems ahead"

We covered that already, but I'll mention another thing you seem to be forgetting.
Novell offers Mono and Gtk# with their products, which makes it easier for them to sell them to companies that have software written in .NET; these companies can more easily port their software to GNU/Linux. Novell could also have developed Mono/Qt#, but then their customers would have to pay license fees to Qt, making the Novell offer less interesting. This could even possibly kill the advantage of costs of GNU/Linux compared to Windows.

There's another mistake, indeed. While KDE 4 is being developed and may not be released for another year, GNOME is getting a new release every 6 months with new features and bug fixes. Is there a particular, factual, reason you're so convinced KDE 4 is going to be that much better?

And another thing...
"also considdering Red Hat is and has been throwing money on gnome, too - it would set Novell apart from the competition. "

You're also forgetting Sun. For example, if it wasn't for them GNOME would not be accessible, which you may or may not know is pretty important for Novell and Red Hat too (out of the box GNOME is more accessible than even Windows). Novell would have to duplicate all the work done by Sun and Red Hat if they went with KDE, and for what? They want to be ahead of Microsoft, not Red Hat. The market is a lot bigger for them there.

ok, i stand corrected on the 'pouring money in Gnome'. tough i still wonder who pays the guy's salary doing 'administration' for gnome...

" You then mention "while it barely can keep up with KDE", which is not a fact (flamebait actually, but we're way past that in this thread). Where can GNOME not keep up with KDE? Accessibility? Usability?"
no, those two are gnome's area's. but there is more under the sun than having a nicely laid out application and less features. things like KIOSK features and ACL support, in KDE but not in Gnome. just to name 2 things. or good cross-app communication (dcop. dbus might replace it as it is already almost as good and can also talk to the system, but for now, KDE has a clear edge on this one - full scripting of almost all apps and their possibilities from the command line or other applications). Kparts. and integration of Gnome apps with GTK-Qt theme engine (you can better run Gnome apps in KDE than the opposite, speed and look&feel wise).

and i think a company rather pays for Qt and its support and have a better toolkit than using GTK. by the way, if they don't sell their software, they don't have to pay at all, so why care?

Gnome IS more easy and accessible compared to windows, and on some points even to Mac OS X, but so is KDE, despite some apps having more icons. a lot of work has been put in making many config dialogues easier, and quite some apps got more clever. yes, a lot low hanging fruit is still out there, but on the other hand - gnome has some cathing up to do in areas like cd burning and music playing. and KPDF kicks ass, too. and don't forget the education apps from KDE, they surpass the gnome ones by far.

So, you re talking as the clasic troll who saids "this application is better than that", pff, so? if the solution were installing "the best app", GNOME and KDE wouln't have any place in the enterprice.

And there is a small datail called Qt dual license that would force your customers to buy an expensive license if they don't wan't to develope a GPL application?

i said if they don't distribute (i said sell) their app, they can develop it for free, they don't have to pay. so for internal usage, Qt is as free as GTK. and if you want to sell your software as proprietary software (and you shouldn't), you can pay them for a license. you can pay them if you don't sell your software, too, so you get tech support, btw (and some companies acutally DO).

get your facts straight before calling someone a troll, thank you.

and you're right about the 'this app is better than that app', i shouldn't have said it. still YOU ignore the other valid comments!

"but there is more under the sun than having a nicely laid out application and less features."

If you'd like to convince yourself that having a usable interface is the same as having less features, please go right ahead. I won't bother to comment on this.

"things like KIOSK features and ACL support,"

There's actually a patch to add ACL support to gnome-vfs (written by someone from Sun btw). I wasn't sure what KIOSK is, but after reading a quick description a KDE web site I can say it's something GConf provides by design, and in the 2.14 release of GNOME there will be an admin suite to make it easier to use these features for administrators.

"Kparts."

You probably know that Bonobo is part of the GNOME platform, but there's a move away from it on the desktop modules, which is actually a UI design decision. The idea of a universal application is something that KDE does with Konqueror and GNOME intends to avoid.

"and integration of Gnome apps with GTK-Qt theme engine (you can better run Gnome apps in KDE than the opposite, speed and look&feel wise). "

GTK+ can use Qt (or Windows libraries) to draw widgets but the "feel" is still GTK+. I have no idea if Qt has this level of flexibility, but if not someone could "fix this" by porting Clearlooks to Qt. I don't know if there's interest to do this.

"and i think a company rather pays for Qt and its support and have a better toolkit than using GTK. by the way, if they don't sell their software, they don't have to pay at all, so why care? "

If you think a company would rather pay Trolltech to have to do more work porting a .NET application to Qt compared to porting it to Mono/GTK# you're just being a fanboy. Non-.NET apps can be ported to GTK+, gtkmm or even pygtk also without paying. It makes the Novell products more attractive if they don't have to depend on Trolltech to provide a very basic feature.

"gnome has some cathing up to do in areas like cd burning and music playing. and KPDF kicks ass, too."

Actually, no. Specifically in Novell's next release, Banshee is reponsible for writing music CD's and Nautilus for writing data CD's. I don't know if KPDF kicks ass but I certainly don't see anything missing in Evince, which can also view .ps files. I haven't used any education apps for either GNOME or KDE but I hear KDE is very good, indeed.

for an outside observer (i'm not actively involved in gnome) it looks like all this money is poured into gnome, while it barely can keep up with KDE - would it not be far more efficient to put money on KDE? also considdering Red Hat is and has been throwing money on gnome, too - it would set Novell apart from the competition. and many ex-windows users seem to prefer KDE anyway...

just on technical merits, KDE seems ahead - isn't it better to build on stone than on sand?

i might be mistaken, but it looks like KDE 4 is gonna leave gnome far far behind anyway, why not go for the winning team?

Uhmm..because Trolltech own Qt, like has been discussed a thousands times before.

do your homework - if you want free software for the freedom, you prefer Qt cuz it is GPL (and if you want to create proprietary software with it, you have to pay). and if you're a company, you rather pay for a good tool + support.

anyway, this has indeed been discussed, but after 1998 new things have happened. i think its time for you to read up since then.

do your homework - if you want free software for the freedom, you prefer Qt cuz it is GPL (and if you want to create proprietary software with it, you have to pay). and if you're a company, you rather pay for a good tool + support.

Maybe Novell doesn't want to put that limitant to their customers, do the math.

do your homework - if you want free software for the freedom, you prefer Qt cuz it is GPL (and if you want to create proprietary software with it, you have to pay). and if you're a company, you rather pay for a good tool + support.

Do your homework, it's about lowering barriers to entry and not being held hostage to the pricing whims of Trolltech. But let's see, Microsoft's standalone IDEs are now all free (including for commercial use), OSX gives away their developer tools for free without any strings attached, gtk+ doesn't have strings attached. I can't even name another toolkit that charges for non-GPL compatible use.

But yeah, KDE wasn't thinking when they chose their toolkit and so Novell, RedHat, and Sun all chose Gnome ( a technically inferior) desktop tech.

Once again, stupid decisions made by open source developers are another reason for the linux desktop being still stuck in low single digit numbers.

i think novell and red had just made a silly decision - remember when staroffice became non-free again, and it's sales increased? just because you had to pay for it... many companies rather pay for something and have commercial-grade support than not pay and have to do everything themselves. of course, not all might want to pay. its good there is a choice...

Oh, could you please tell where to get Windows for free? And the development stuff and support and everything... I'm sure people would appreaciate your information about this, though I don't have a need for that stuff yet, but it'd be nice to know for the future.

Oh, could you please tell where to get Windows for free? And the development stuff and support and everything... I'm sure people would appreaciate your information about this, though I don't have a need for that stuff yet, but it'd be nice to know for the future.

If you all want something productive to do with your time, a decent discussion point and want some background and a pretty good starting point on some of the things I've banged on about (to a deaf post) I can heartily recommend John H. Terpstra's (he of Samba fame) presentation called "Linux: The Business Opportunity" available here:

John is as close as anyone has got to groking what's happening and what needs to happen. And yes, in that presentation he does say that Linux and open source companies like Novell, and even Red Hat, will disappear unless they change, actually compete, tackle the difficult issues head on and get out of their comfort zones.

It's not desktop related per se, but he gives an awful lot of quality background into what needs to change in order to cement Linux and open source software's position on the server-side (yes, a hell of a lot still needs to be done) to lay the groundwork to make the open source desktop work and an acceptable proposition for businesses and organisatons. People see the server-side as a done deal for open source software. Not so I'm afraid.

Not suprisingly, paying for MP3 support due to patents and copying image files to flickr do not feature high on the list of potential todos......

Shall I assume that you meant "John is as close to anyone has got to agreeing with me"?

Why, have you listened to it? He, he, he. You can say that about anyone, including yourself. It's extremely easy to sit in an ivory tower and shout "flame" and "troll". The difference is that you haven't described what the problems are and where people should really be focusing their efforts ;-).

Shall I assume that you don't like some of the home truths, you simply don't like some of the things that that might pointed out or you don't want to hear that what Red Hat, Sun or even Novell are doing desktop-wise is just meaningless fluff?

sure windows supports mp3 playback out of the box(default install includes MediaPlayer) but how many use it to play mp3's? Using windows almost everyone uses something else to play them(winamp or other). Not that much different w/ unixen even though distributors are a bit more skittish about default mp3 support than they were a while ago. Libmad, the MAD mp3 decoder seems to be withstanding the licensing controversy so as an end user just install something that uses or can use it (mpg321, xmms, any number of others), as installing winamp or whatever one prefers on windows.

I like how they obviously did the slightly annoying cookie-based registration process you have to do one time with f-spot before you can upload to a Flickr account (good thing you don't have to do it _every_ time) in private, _before_ the public demonstration. Granted there's nothing the developers can do about that, it's Yahoo's stupid identification system, but a classic PR fudge anyway.

I like how they obviously did the slightly annoying cookie-based registration process you have to do one time with f-spot before you can upload to a Flickr account (good thing you don't have to do it _every_ time) in private, _before_ the public demonstration.

I like how the simple explanation that Nat has been using Flickr for months did not cross your mind.

Linspire provides a fully licensed multimedia platform. Not open source but many commercial distro distribute commercially licensed wares despite being fully committed to open source, like Mandriva and others.

Connecting a camera and uploading to Flickr ? I do that already (to my delight) but here again nothing new.

The question is why demonstrate all that for a corporate desktop ? What about granular desktop configuration permissioning, a further push to help openoffice compatibility with MS Office and crucially a Access application porting tool ? What about a competitor to Adobe Acrobat (not just the reader I mean) and a competitive OCR software ?

What about getting people like SAGE to release their most popular wares for linux desktop ? (a unified packaging system would probably help by the way) Encouraging HP and Xerox to make their small office copier/printers fully compatible with Linux .

Thats a lot of things that smaller businesses needs.

Big businesses? Forget about it. XP has just finished passing UAT stage where I work and that because of the high number of old applications that are problematic on XP. XP will probably be not be deployed internally by the time Vista is released commercially. But we are moving away from Solaris to Linux for quite a few applications so, its not like Linux is losing everything there either

Re: "Linspire provides a fully licensed multimedia platform. Not open source but many commercial distro distribute commercially licensed wares despite being fully committed to open source, like Mandriva and others.

Connecting a camera and uploading to Flickr ? I do that already (to my delight) but here again nothing new.

The question is why demonstrate all that for a corporate desktop ? What about granular desktop configuration permissioning, a further push to help openoffice compatibility with MS Office and crucially Access application porting tool ? What about a competitor to Adobe Acrobat (not just the reader I mean) and a competitive OCR software ?"

It was a poorly written article as it did not really release any information on what's new in NLD 10 other than trying to make it seem important that is now offers MP3 support. The reason I say it was poorly written was because it also didn't cover any of the other enterprise solutions Novell provides.

Anyway regarding your comment on comparison to Linspire. The company Linspire Inc at this time is no where near at the level of offering a complete enterprise solution as Novell. For example I don't see anything on Linspire Inc's site that compares to Novell iFolder, Novell AppArmor or their server solutions.

If you want to see how NLD differs from Linspire then all you need to do is read here http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/ Since NLD 10 isn't released yet if you're interested then you can see what is similar by looking over the current version or even contacting Novell.

desktop permissions? you mean something like KIOSK? that's in Novell's offering, tough it only works for KDE apps. or you mean stuff like ACL? again, only KDE afaik. but gnome will catch up.

anyway, novell is putting a lot of work in server-related stuff, and i guess they spend time thinking about corporate needs like KIOSK and ACL's, so they will end up in gnome - after some time. or the companies buying Novell/Suse will just continue to use KDE ;-)

it is overrated BECAUSE it is limited for KDE? now there's a statement. i guess you can think what i'd love to say, huh? about someting just being behind on this... and just because it was sooo easy to build this for KDE... anyway, i agree there should be a freedesktop.org standard. i'm not sure about how gnome organized their config system, but if it's half as efficient as KDE's, it won't be very difficult to add support for gnome apps to KIOSK.

it is overrated BECAUSE it is limited for KDE? now there's a statement. i guess you can think what i'd love to say, huh? about someting just being behind on this

Maybe you should uncerstand that you can lanch a console that is not "Konsole" and launch avery application you want that is not a KDE appl. and btw, in the world of the enterprice, there is a lot more than just KDE apps, a lot, solutions an enterprise needs an KDE doenes have won't be controled for KIOSK, so, KIOS is just the overrated tool trolls like you use to try to look smart.

you're right, linspire and novell's target customers are different and therefore so is their software offerings.

to wit, novell is targeting "enterprise" customers and linspire is targeting people who actually want to run linux on the desktop.

my original comment wasn't meant to be a tit-for-tat over features, but pointing out that "first linux to legally play mp3" is wrong. no matter who it is, i'm not a supporter of corporate misrepresentation.

nice theory, doesn't work in the real world. so we need real world solutions. welcome "freedesktop.org", where we make all desktops hospitable for all apps.

given that people are happily (and often without knowing it) running apps from multiple desktop projects simultaneously all the time, i think we're succeeding. what gaps there are, we continue to fill in.

so we're accomplishing the goal ("all applications happily run under") without throwing out the benefits of competition, risk spreading, or having to make a one-size-fits-all non-solution

Is KDE 4 group open to using the XGL server for KDE with Arthor as the backend drawing library or is the standard Xserver (Version 7) the current target. Has their been any communication with the Novell group about the XGL server. Since we had the announcment of their closed door development, no one has really spoke on whether any of the parties interested in XGL had communicated. Can you shed some light on the matter?

i'm no aseigo of course, but i think i can say it's very unlikely XGL won't benefit KDE. i'm not entirely sure i get the precise situation, but i think it would be rather easy to write a arthur-backend for XGL.

read his blogs about it. that had very different reasons - mostly because it was/would be a waste of resources. but don't ask again before you read his story and understood it.

Mr Aseigo has the talent of talk in 2 ways with the same words, so if you put in evidence something you think is wrong and you quote his words then he weill answer "I never wanted to mean it and look but it also saids", so its is pointless even argu abou it.

Well, I know that the KDE group will have an accelerated Xserver for KDE 4 at some point, but I also know that if they're on board with the XGL code that Dave is publishing, the time frame for implementing that accelerated server will be significantly smaller. The other major question is what will happen to kompmanager. kompmanager is not an OpenGL based composite manager, so assuming they did adopt the XGL server, will the KDE group adopt Dave's new composite manager or rewrite kompmanager so that it is XGL compatible.

Qt/Arthur doesn't need XGL backend (XGL won't even expose it's own API set). XGL will have hardware accelerated XRender (and even indirect GL), so KDE/Qt won't even know if it is running on XGL or regular XAA/EXA server, it will be accelerated on XGL automatically.

Compositing effects are unrelated to this, KDE people can write their own one easily if needed, although I think there will be joint solution by more UI communities to have common powerful, extensible, flexible, hookable, etc. compositing manager.

...and lo, what could have been an interesting discussion turns into yet another pointless Gnome vs KDE trolling session.

But I guess I should at least treat it for what it is, and as everybody knows, no good trolling session is complete without a reference to Hitler.

So here goes: the situation we're in right now is like Europe in 1939. The Evil Empire has conquered 95% of the territory.

We've got the Soviets (whose philosophy is to many almost as abhorent as the Nazis') fighting them on one side, and just about holding their own (their army being funded principally by the sale of iPods).

But on the other side, Britain and France, who have squabbled for centuries over whose country is better, have finally alli-- oh, wait. Britain and France are *still* squabbling.

It looks like another example of a company who have made alot of effort to make Linux a great desktop operating system - the only let down, like all those who have tried and failed to get Linux on the desktop, the complete and utter lack of software from the Adobes, Corels, Macromedias and Quickens of the world.

Like I keep saying, there is nothing actually holding Linux back as a desktop operating system - all things being equal, if all the software on Windows suddenly became available for Linux (or some other UNIX like operating system), Windows wouldn't stand a chance BUT the fact remains, people choose their operating system based on what software can run on top of it.

Now sure, I could, if I wanted to, switch over and use KOffice, Quanta+ and a few other goodies from the OSS community BUT for the vast majority of end users out there, they like the software they have, they've spent time learning how to navigate it, they've got files save in that format, and they would rather stick with what they know - Linux in a nutshell is a no-go until that piece of software arrives on Linux from that paticular vendor.

Like I keep saying, there is nothing actually holding Linux back as a desktop operating system - all things being equal, if all the software on Windows suddenly became available for Linux (or some other UNIX like operating system), Windows wouldn't stand a chance BUT the fact remains, people choose their operating system based on what software can run on top of it.

And that's why Mono should be an official part of Gnome, so that those future apps (ALL Windows apps will be .NET targeted eventually) can at least give developers a fighting chance to port it without too much grief. But we can only assume that RedHat will do its best to keep the linux desktop a failure at any substantial market penetration

And then you get the whole KDE/Gnome fighting and it's no wonder that Microsoft laughs to the bank.

1) Use of .NET as a framework for building applications is a LONG way off - look how long it took for the transition from win16 to win32, some companies were still shipping win16 applications right up until the beginning of 2000!

2) KDE already has almost every bit of the technology laid out, hence my comfusion as to why people still scream GNOME - someone NEEDS to purchase Trolltech and make Qt completely opensource under something like BSDL or CDDL, something that is nice 'n commercial friendly.

3) (Not directly bought up by you, but I'll address it anyway) Although there is WINE out there, do we really want to enter into a situation where software companies simply avoid brining native applications to Linux or UNIX in geneal because, "oh well, it works just as good on WINE" - thus opening up a rather large quagmire.

[/i]
1) Use of .NET as a framework for building applications is a LONG way off - look how long it took for the transition from win16 to win32, some companies were still shipping win16 applications right up until the beginning of 2000!
[/i]

Technology adoption is a fascinating topic. You are correct pointing out that even in 2000 people were building win16 applications in 2000. Technology adoption does not happen overnight.

The good news is that certain sectors will adopt it early. With Mono these early adopters, as well as the larger market will have a choice of running their software on Unix.

In addition to that, many of Novell's own products are being built with Mono (iFolder, Hula, F-Spot, Beagle, Casa, Banshee and a few other internal apps that we have not released yet).

The productivity boost (due to many factors) is very significant in our experience.

2) KDE already has almost every bit of the technology laid out, hence my comfusion as to why people still scream GNOME - someone NEEDS to purchase Trolltech and make Qt completely opensource under something like BSDL or CDDL, something that is nice 'n commercial friendly.

So does GNOME. All of those bits of technology are there as well.

The major bits for desktop adoption include improving OpenOffice interoperability and feature set, improving interoperability with Microsoft formats, making sure device drivers keep working across kernel versions.

Technology adoption is a fascinating topic. You are correct pointing out that even in 2000 people were building win16 applications in 2000. Technology adoption does not happen overnight.

The good news is that certain sectors will adopt it early. With Mono these early adopters, as well as the larger market will have a choice of running their software on Unix.

In addition to that, many of Novell's own products are being built with Mono (iFolder, Hula, F-Spot, Beagle, Casa, Banshee and a few other internal apps that we have not released yet).

The productivity boost (due to many factors) is very significant in our experience.

True, but they are clean, start from scratch projects - the software that customers need, are the established titles with hundreds of thousands of lines of code with millions of man hours invested into the project - as much as I would love for Adobe to jump out of their closet with pom-poms declaring that the next versions of their software will be completely .NET native, its just not going to happen.

What Mono needs right now is an IDE that doesn't suck - and I'm sure you've seen in the big bad world, corporations run on quick and dirty coding - drag, drop, assign a little code and push out to the end users and sort out the the sexiness of the code later.

The problem is, Novell doesn't have such a solution - they also don't have the marketing power required to PUSH mono; they remind me of DEC, Amiga, Atari - great technology company run by engineers who don't realise that to market something you need some razzle dazzle.

So does GNOME. All of those bits of technology are there as well.

The major bits for desktop adoption include improving OpenOffice interoperability and feature set, improving interoperability with Microsoft formats, making sure device drivers keep working across kernel versions.

Then there are people like me who avoid the rigmarole and go for Solaris and FreeBSD. Not to turn this into a Linux vs. everything else match, but I do find it rather ammusing to see that what handstrungs Linux are well known, and yet, no one actually does a damn thing to fix it.

A driver API that makes more moves in one release than Rickey Martin does with his hips in a whole song; a compiler that can't seem to work out a stable ABI and blood well stick to it; a community riddled with people who spend half their time bitching about which licence to use rather than just getting down to coding; a desktop that is split in half and there is no current solution right now to bring the two together until a unified low level architecture.

To be quite frank, its gotten to the stage where I just throw my hands up and just laugh, because there isn't much I can do about it - I can keep getting pissed off, or I'll simply avoid the issue, use a Mac, FreeBSD or Windows computer and be done with it.

Wow this really turned into the typical KDE vs GNOME war. Anyway back to the topic, it looks like they did implement part of the mockups we saw not long ago, if you check out these videos you can see that Natīs "start" menu has beagle search field in it, etc. Also the XGL effects are really cool. Here are the videos (found them at digg.com) : http://membres.lycos.fr/athome93/