Post by Question on Jan 11, 2019 11:33:35 GMT -6

XombieMike , thanks. I understand you, I apologise again for the position you've been put in, and appreciate everything you're trying to do. There is one more thing I can do, It's a long shot, but might as well give it a go.

Question : I am a professional Linux developer (please refer to my LinkedIn account here for details). While my day job is at Canonical (the company that makes and distributes Ubuntu), I am making this offer personally. I know C#, C, several other languages, and am highly familiar with kernel internals and drivers, and would be happy to work on the Linux port of Bloodstained, on my own personal time, for free, and under NDA, with the limitations that I may discuss Linux technical issues doing the port on this board so the other Linux backers know how it's going, and that it is not expected that the Linux release will be simultaneous with Windows, since I am only one person.

I can offer up to 15 hours of work a week, and already have the UE4 source complied and running on Ubuntu. All I'd need is a copy of your most recent Linux build's source files and the minimal game resources so I know I've succeeded, which I may already have via the Steam demo. If you're having build problems or performance problems, I can fix those, shoot you a patch, and get you back on track. To reiterate, I don't want money, nor do I want credit anywhere, I just want the game to work. Consider it a very-after-the-fact backer bump.

I'm not a Mac developer and unfortunately can't be any help there, but maybe you could find someone similar to me in the Apple backers.

...

Anyhow, since I'm stuck with a Windows copy regardless, if it doesn't work on WINE and they don't want my help, I certainly have every reason to make it work on Wine. You can bet I'll be doing that.

Post by rav4ishing on Jan 11, 2019 17:23:26 GMT -6

When I backed the game, I never thought myself as buying the game. I thought of it more like "investing in a startup" that is developing a product that may or may not come to life. We paid for something that wasn't a finished product, i.e., vaporware. It's kind of like if you invest in a business that ultimately failed for legitimate and legal reasons. You can't get a refund for that.

Post by browren on Jan 11, 2019 17:49:22 GMT -6

When I backed the game, I never thought myself as buying the game. I thought of it more like "investing in a startup" that is developing a product that may or may not come to life. We paid for something that wasn't a finished product, i.e., vaporware. It's kind of like if you invest in a business that ultimately failed for legitimate and legal reasons. You can't get a refund for that.

......except they're not a failed business. They're about to release the game on several platforms, including one that wasn't in the original promise.

That extra platform that wasn't promised, comes at the expense of the ones that were cancelled.

Post by rav4ishing on Jan 14, 2019 0:33:47 GMT -6

When I backed the game, I never thought myself as buying the game. I thought of it more like "investing in a startup" that is developing a product that may or may not come to life. We paid for something that wasn't a finished product, i.e., vaporware. It's kind of like if you invest in a business that ultimately failed for legitimate and legal reasons. You can't get a refund for that.

......except they're not a failed business. They're about to release the game on several platforms, including one that wasn't in the original promise.

That extra platform that wasn't promised, comes at the expense of the ones that were cancelled.

Are we certain of that? I don't think anyone can say the business is a success or failure (keep in mind I never said the business failed, it was only used for comparison in my explanation). The funds from Kickstarter were not enough to even fund the entire game, so it needed additional backing from another company. From what I understand about Kickstarter, there is no guarantee that the idea will completely be finished (hence I compared it to an investor in a business startup). Kickstarter isn't a store, we have to remember that. The tone I'm sensing from a lot of frustrated backers is somewhat like "I paid for this, so they need to deliver it to me." This sounds like a reaction that is more appropriate for purchasing a finished product or a pre-order.

Anyways, it's just my opinion. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right, I'm simply speaking out what I believed in when I decided to back this project. I backed the game knowing I may not get it; hence I backed at the lowest minimum tier just to get a digital copy of the game.

Post by ssokolow on Jan 14, 2019 2:25:08 GMT -6

......except they're not a failed business. They're about to release the game on several platforms, including one that wasn't in the original promise.

That extra platform that wasn't promised, comes at the expense of the ones that were cancelled.

Are we certain of that? I don't think anyone can say the business is a success or failure (keep in mind I never said the business failed, it was only used for comparison in my explanation). The funds from Kickstarter were not enough to even fund the entire game, so it needed additional backing from another company. From what I understand about Kickstarter, there is no guarantee that the idea will completely be finished (hence I compared it to an investor in a business startup). Kickstarter isn't a store, we have to remember that. The tone I'm sensing from a lot of frustrated backers is somewhat like "I paid for this, so they need to deliver it to me." This sounds like a reaction that is more appropriate for purchasing a finished product or a pre-order.

Anyways, it's just my opinion. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right, I'm simply speaking out what I believed in when I decided to back this project. I backed the game knowing I may not get it; hence I backed at the lowest minimum tier just to get a digital copy of the game.

Kickstarter's Terms of Service specifies that, if a project fails to a degree where it is financially incapable of delivering on its promises, it must engage in a degree of transparency about the cause and the plans going forward which is not met by vague statements like "middleware problems".

Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 6:57:23 GMT -6

You can try and use the KS TOS in a legal way like that and mix it with your opinion, but at the end of the day, KS is going to side with 505. I know why, and I could explain it again, but you could think that's just my opinion as must as I say yours is yours.

The KS TOS isn't going to change anything for this mess. Your opinion on transparency included.

Post by absorbnix on Jan 14, 2019 10:27:38 GMT -6

Hi jph here. Lookie, you finally have an account to issue ban threats at if you don't like what I say.

I am not a lawyer. I will stick again to restating what we do know. 505 themselves have invoked the KS TOS as the reason they can bypass their reward obligation.

In any case, the fall back is common law, which there is plenty of precedent that KS projects can be held liable for refunds for unmet reward promises. Even if they claim they don't have any money that just pushes them into bankruptcy proceedings at which point remaining assets are used to pay off liabilities in order of priority.

Now let me propose a hypothetical, say I started a business in the following way:

1) I create limited liability company A2) company A takes out a loan debt of 100K3) I create limited liability company B4) company A pays company B to produce widgets5) company B buys a yacht6) I bankrupt company A thus escaping 100K debt.

Does anyone think there isn't common law covering this situation? Well, this is the situation we find ourselves in, only in this case the yacht is a switch port. Not part of the KS but worth a lot of money to Artplay/505.

Post by browren on Jan 14, 2019 11:14:20 GMT -6

From what I understand about Kickstarter, there is no guarantee that the idea will completely be finished (hence I compared it to an investor in a business startup). Kickstarter isn't a store, we have to remember that. The tone I'm sensing from a lot of frustrated backers is somewhat like "I paid for this, so they need to deliver it to me." This sounds like a reaction that is more appropriate for purchasing a finished product or a pre-order.

While you are correct in that the contract created by the Kickstarter campaign comes with no "guarantee" in the legal sense, it is still a contract, and 505 is still obligated to meet the requirements of that contract.

Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 11:58:38 GMT -6

absorbnixI've never threatened you. I suggested you register so you can edit your posts. Jeez dude, you're so hostile. Like your mouth works fine but your ears are broken. Anyway, I'm glad you registered. I hope you find a purpose for being here that isn't just repeating yourself and refusing to understand the situation.

Your mention of bankruptcy or lack of money is silly. The project has its budget. It's that simple. The KS funds that were raised for development have been spent long ago to various parties to make what they have made or are making, and everything else is being continued by 505's budget for the game. This isn't the first time you've heard this though is it? So why should I keep repeating myself to you?

Nothing is going to change the fact that I feel like refunds to Linux and Mac backers is the moral thing to do, and nothing is going to change that they can't refund the money or they would. However, that doesn't mean I can't get tired of individuals that just come here to spout vile snide remarks and fail to move this conversation anywhere.

Look, do you actually want to get something done? Have you tried everything you can? Because all you're seeming to be doing now is pushing me who thinks you deserve a refund into being me who thinks you are unreasonable and toxic.

These aren't threats. These are just my insights. I enforce rules, not pick and choose who to "censor, threaten or silence". This isn't my profession. I'm a volunteer. Professionally, I don't speak for anything. Personally, I'm sick of your attitude.

Get something done.

I would have loved to rally the community to back a refund and distribute the money myself. I've ran a couple of fan donation events and have handled fan money on two sucessful occasions. If anyone could start a fan campaign to get Linux and Mac backers some money back, it would be me. (Feel free to prove me wrong, and continue to just whine about stuff or empty threat legal action.)

Asking for money from the rest of fans like me who think you deserve a refund has a great chance of sucess due to overwhelming stance from all backers that you do indeed deserve a refund. The huge catch there is how you prevent non backers, or non Linux / Mac backers from taking advantage of that good will.

I have worked with Fangamer behind the scenes for various minor reasons in the past for Bloodstained and they have always been very responsive. I approached them with this idea of a fan campaign to refund Linux / Mac backers. I asked that if I were to get them a list of claims if they could verify them. They did not respond to me, and that is very uncharacteristic of them. What that helps confirm for me is that they have no way to tell Linux / Mac backers from Windows backers, and a refund would be opened to everyone. No staff has ever denied this and no survey choices for platforms have ever had Linux or Mac on it specifically.

So a crowd funding campaign to get you your pledge back isn't going to happen. The same thing is an obstacle for knowing who is legally verifiably due a refund, which is null anyway because no one is legally due a refund. Go get a lawyer if you disagree, but I think that's a bad idea for you and everyone. Regardless, your snide comments and attitude here certainly aren't going to change anything in a positive way.

Since you like making up hypothetical stories, here's one for you. Let's say we actually do crowd fund a refund campaign and discover the amount of claims are low enough we can judge on an individual basis these are legit backers, for the legit platforms, with the legit amounts pledged. Wouldn't it be funny as hell that they actually still get Steam keys or switch platforms, get their backer rewards, and end up playing it on WINE just fine?

What is your goal here, and how long do you plan on doing something about it other than stinking up this place?

Post by absorbnix on Jan 14, 2019 12:25:41 GMT -6

I never said you threatened me directly. You have threatened others, in this very thread. I'm not going to go into it because it's besides the point.

As for legal action, yes multiple people are looking into it. That takes time. Meanwhile, I will continue to point out any problems I see with excuses in regards to Artplay/505's conduct. I mean, to me it's sad we even have to talk about the legalities of these things. Everyone clearly sees it's wrong, just look at this poll. When we make a rhetorical appeal we are told "sorry, they have a legal defense", but when we make a legal appeal we are told "your interpretation is wrong, discussing the legalities is pointless".

By the way, snide, I'll own up to the that. Feel free to quote my "vile" comments.

Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 15:26:55 GMT -6

As for the quote on the lawyer bit, the rest of the sentence is important. There are only two possible outcomes with a lawsuit.

1. It fails. (It would fail, btw, don't waste your energy.)

2. It suceeds by some unfortunate miracle and ruins the rest of the game for absolutely everyone because they wouldn't be able to discern Win from Mac/Linux, therefore being forced to open up to a massive refund. That money would either come from somewhere else in the project's budget, or more likely straight up stopping it.

Post by absorbnix on Jan 14, 2019 16:09:37 GMT -6

No one wants to see the project fail. I haven't seen a single person say that, least of all Linux backers who wish they had a version for their platform.

All I've seen is people standing up and saying that Linux backers also count. That there is no justification that can be offered for taking our money but not keeping their promise.

Challenge us on that, anyway you want; ethical, logical, emotional. You think you know things about the situation? Well I think I do as well. Every excuse will be invalidated, every rampart breached, every fallacy exploited.

It is not acceptable conduct, no matter how you dress it up or what pretty words are offered up. If any of these reasons were valid they would promise to make it right after launch, which they have declined to do.

Post by absorbnix on Jan 14, 2019 16:32:17 GMT -6

I don't know what you're talking about, dude. You know you and I are on the same side, right?

No, I don't get that impression at all. I think you find ways of saying "I'm sorry, I feel for your plight" (probably sincerely), while at the same time advancing arguments why nothing can or should be done to fix the problem. That's not any side I'm on.

Last Edit:Jan 14, 2019 16:34:15 GMT -6 by absorbnix: clarification of what I was responding to

Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 16:35:35 GMT -6

I made some edits while you were typing, sorry.

Anyways we certainly are on the same side. About "why nothing can or should be done" let me make it clear that I do think something should be done. I've never said anything but that. Now yes though I do believe that something "can't be done" if that something is limited to a refund. I'm open for ideas on other things that might be possible.

Aztec: I don’t visit the Discord but I want to ask if we have any confirmation about the Ayami Kojima box art and the backer exclusive slip cover coming with my physical game day and date or is that coming also later? I realize the design is secret but when?May 24, 2019 17:34:35 GMT -6

Aztec: Also we’re supposed to get another update next Thursday, yes?May 24, 2019 17:35:04 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard: The Discord has been a mad house since yesterday, with random folks giving incorrect answers to things, so I'll just tell you here: the slipcase yes, but the Kojima stuff no.May 24, 2019 17:48:12 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard: It's been a while since I heard that specifically asked about and its answer so I'm not 100% sure on the slipcase, but definitely the Kojima art is in a later shipment with the other rewards.May 24, 2019 17:48:38 GMT -6

Galamoth: Though we are still getting another update next Thursday, right?May 24, 2019 19:32:12 GMT -6

Arsenical: *drinks * the game i have been waiting for such a long time is only a few weeks away from me. i am so excited. im sure other peoples here share that excitement so lets read the new threads. . . . . . . oh.May 24, 2019 21:14:53 GMT -6

Arsenical: meh! who cares! i will still enjoy the shiz out of this game and my name will be on the credits. not only that but now i will be able to enjoy full content even if i lose my backer edition so yeah either way i win. *drinks more *May 24, 2019 21:19:43 GMT -6

Arsenical: but am i the only one who thinks that the idea of the steelcases was terrible? why get 3rd party items involved in your project? people is greedy and will whine about it if they dont get it for free! or did i miss something here?May 24, 2019 21:22:37 GMT -6

roguedragon05: Does anyone know if Bloodstained will be at E3 at all this year?May 24, 2019 21:58:44 GMT -6

Aztec: Thanks @purifyweirdshard for the answers. I’m bummed about no Kojima art. That would’ve made for some excellent PR before the game came out. I wish they could show it off even if they physical prints were shipping later but oh wellMay 24, 2019 23:57:01 GMT -6