TCW vs. Rebels debates are not allowed in the Television forum. As in, discussions that descend into TCW/Rebels bashing/gushing will be subject to Mod action. Contrasting the themes, story lines, characters, etc. between the shows is allowed (welcomed, even). "Versus" debates/arguments, however, are a deal-breaker.

Now that you and I have both said our piece, maybe we can shake hands and get ourselves back to the topic at hand.

Perhaps we can. I just hate it on any forum when someone does those effing meticulous "pick apart every single line and explain why you disagree" responses.

Well, you got me there. Though I could try to lighten the mood by pointing out how it was exactly this that you did in your episode opinion post (by this I mean meticulously picking apart every single scene and explaining why you disagreed), and it was this that inspired me to offer a counterpoint and bounce some ideas off of you to see if anything stuck.

I just wish you weren't so bothered by it, as maybe you could have tried to look at things from another point of view and then who knows - perhaps we would have found ourselves with something more constructive to offer than our last few posts to one another. It's clear you have strong opinions about Star Wars and I thought maybe it could be fun.

Grievous: You're too late. There's nothing you can do for her.Mace: I can make sure you don't kill again.

It's explicit, there's no getting around it. Adi took two blades to the chest, she couldn't have survived that. I won't accept some crappy retcon that she pulled through fine. It only took one similarly placed lightsaber strike to fell Qui-Gon on Naboo, so why should this be any different?

I won't accept that Grievous lost his biggest kill and Adi her fitting fate because Lucas suddenly has an interest in "telling his story of the Clone Wars" read: make lots of money. Obsession was billed as "the action packed lead-in to Revenge of the Sith", clearly not Infinites or anything non-canon. I paid money for this believing that it was and is canon, a ****** little kids' show isn't changing that. George graciously accepted the money we paid for these EU stories, and it isn't right for him to make more money by rehashing and overriding a product many people already paid for.

Aside from the senseless killing of characters who are supposed to die elsewhere, this was a really good episode. Can't wait for next week, just hope they don't muck up Onderon, one of my favorite planets. I'm liking what I'm seeing though, so I can only hope.

That it is and I accept the (I thought, well-done) change, but with with every occurance like this there will be more folks hurt by it and that sucks. I've said before that personally, my main interest when it comes to canonicity is in George telling his version of the story, but it helps that, although I love any number of the novels, comics and video games, when it comes to Star Wars, I simply prefer the audio (esp the music)/visual experience of the films and television (so I tend to enjoy the results more). Thus, I have less of a problem accepting these changes.

What I don't like to see (and neither should LucasFilm, as a company interested in keeping customers) is loyal patrons of the franchise winding up feeling cheesed off because they invested themselves in the experience in what they fully believed to be the "true" depiction of events (never mind the cash spent) only to have that experience brushed aside as "inauthentic." If it absolutely must be done to fulfill Lucas' vision, then I'm certainly willing to give it every chance (hey, Anakin's newly applied "No. Nooooo" during the climax of the saga is one I may never come fully to terms with, though I'm trying), but I have a bit of a time imagining George Lucas saying "you know what, the events depicted in Obsession don't reflect they way in which I've always wanted Adi Gallia to go out" and then insisting on what we saw on Saturday, and if not, things like this should be prevented (especially when it results in being the one thing tarnishing an otherwise excellent episode for some folks).

The real sad thing about this is that I was considering buying the Republic: Clone Wars omnibus last week, but knowing that more and more of the series is getting whipped out, I didn't buy it. And I almost bought an ebay auction that included both republic commando and "Coursaunt nights" but but I hesitated too long for the same reason and now its gone. I just don't feel that its worth investing myself in the clone wars era when much of it will just be swept under the rug.

Actually the word investment made me think at $30 per omnibus and $15 per novel, the TCW has possibly Lucas books $205 in the last couple of weeks from me . That being said I did buy the last Bantam book I was missing "Children of the Jedi", so you can take $3 off that total.

I wouldn't be a fan either if I received that many personal threats and constant hating by his fan base over simple things like Blu-Ray changes to the OT.

Actually, I'd try to ruin Star Wars as much as I could to *beep* everyone off.

It's amazing how much hate Gallia's death is generating, you all knew this was coming is what is surprising, for months - Adi Gallia was going to get impaled by Savage's 4 inch horn. Blunt force trauma, nothing cauterized there, as well as a saber through her body. She either died to due her liver failing or bled to death. Eeth Koth is probably the next Jedi on the chopping board

I wouldn't be a fan either if I received that many personal threats and constant hating by his fan base over simple things like Blu-Ray changes to the OT.

Actually, I'd try to ruin Star Wars as much as I could to *beep* everyone off.

It's amazing how much hate Gallia's death is generating, you all knew this was coming is what is surprising, for months - Adi Gallia was going to get impaled by Savage's 4 inch horn. Blunt force trauma, nothing cauterized there, as well as a saber through her body. She either died to due her liver failing or bled to death. Eeth Koth is probably the next Jedi on the chopping board

1) It is *very* unfortunate to see that the creators are still unable to make the best use of their brief running time.
The whole first act up until the Sith arrived at Florum to take over the ship was COMPLETELY unnecessary. It contributed nothing to the story or the characters, the action was weak, because was absolutely nothing at stake, as neither Maul nor Savage had any struggle taking out those with the droids. There was only one key information - Darth Maul's new master-over-equals mindset being stated.
Apart from that, the only reason we had to see those pre-Florum scenes was to show a) they now got the same freighter type as before, only now with money to lure the pirates into their scheme, and b) to have a side story of the Jedi investigating and finally picking up on their trail.

Most of the points you've made were necessary things to show. If they didn't show how the Bros. got the credits then people would complain "Hey where did they get the credits!? This is important background info the show needs to explore more! FAIL"

"FAIL" ? I'm not sure if your post was meant to be sarcastic or not. Perhaps you just hadn't read my full post:

I realise I'm late to the party, but here are some of my thoughts on the episode:

1) It is *very* unfortunate to see that the creators are still unable to make the best use of their brief running time.
The whole first act up until the Sith arrived at Florum to take over the ship was COMPLETELY unnecessary. It contributed nothing to the story or the characters, the action was weak, because was absolutely nothing at stake, as neither Maul nor Savage had any struggle taking out those with the droids. There was only one key information - Darth Maul's new master-over-equals mindset being stated.
Apart from that, the only reason we had to see those pre-Florum scenes was to show a) they now got the same freighter type as before, only now with money to lure the pirates into their scheme, and b) to have a side story of the Jedi investigating and finally picking up on their trail.

Now WHY couldn't this episode begin with a newsreel depicting our Jedi heroes talking to Blue Snaggletooth, showing them the Lightsaber marks everywhere with the Narrator telling us that the Jedi are now aware that "two dangerous Lightsaber-whielding suspects" had gone on a rampage here and stolen all the money and took off in a cruiser?
No direct hints at the Sith brethren. No silly "oh, red sabres = Sith" explanation. Instead a little mystery for the Jedi to chew on. Why would Force Users steal money and a ship?

Now lets move on to what would have then giving up a much more interesting opening scene: Pirate ships orbiting the planet Florum spot a mysterious freighter slowly drifting towards them, no hailing frequencies, no signs of a crew. The pirates check out the freighter, Alien-style: Flashlights only, rattling chains, cargo barrels toppling over, shadowy silhouettes darting across the walls and finally Sith eyes! The two Sith brethren are revealed as they spring their trap. The scene continues as in the episode, an agreement is found, the Sith purchase an alliance with the Pirates.

A simple, clear-cut opening with lots of atmosphere to properly re-introduce us to Darth Maul and Savage Opress.

Sorry, but before the prequels came out, there was no talk of "subordinate to the higher canon" etc etc. The EU was advertised as part of the actual canon.

"Before the prequels came out". Well...

Sue Rostoni in Star Wars Insider no 23 1994 said:

'Gospel', or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology.

Stephen Sansweet in the preface to the Star Wars Encyclopedia 1998 said:

Which brings us to the often-asked question: Just what is Star Wars canon, and what is not? The one sure answer: The Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition -- the three films themselves as executive-produced, and in the case of Star Wars written and directed, by George Lucas, are canon. Coming in a close second we have the authorized adaptations of the three films: the novels, radio dramas, and comics. After that, almost everything falls into a category of ”quasi-canon.”

That's two quotes right there. Sure, from the inception of the modern EU with the publishing of Heir to the Empire in 1991 it has been labeled canon (or even 'quasi-canon'), but it has not been placed on the same level as the movies.

That it is and I accept the (I thought, well-done) change, but with with every occurance like this there will be more folks hurt by it and that sucks.

What I don't like to see (and neither should LucasFilm, as a company interested in keeping customers) is loyal patrons of the franchise winding up feeling cheesed off because they invested themselves in the experience in what they fully believed to be the "true" depiction of events (never mind the cash spent) only to have that experience brushed aside as "inauthentic."

Can I just take a second to say thank you for this? I honestly appreciate the sentiment here. Rather than some posters who would prefer to simply dismiss or insult their fellow fans, or manipulate wording in an attempt to invalidate their legitimate concerns, you came at this from a very honest, personal approach. It didn't bother you all that much personally, but took the time to offer your sympathies to those it did. I really do appreciate that, and wish more forum members here would emulate your example. Thank you.

I still haven't seen a great explanation for why they had to use Adi Gallia in this episode. Make it Eeth Koth. Make it random Jedi.

I get that she is a (somewhat) recognizable Council member, but the ironic thing is that many SW fans who actually know who she is and why her death by Oppress is significant are the very ones who would be aware of the events on Boz Pity. I seriously doubt the average SW fan has any idea who she was.

@Billy_Dee_Binks - I think they wanted to ease into the season a bit, which is why it started somewhat slow. I'm usually the first person to complain about the pacing and time wasting, but it didn't bother me this time around.

EDIT: Overall, I was quite happy. I would actually prefer that Maul doesn't look like Mr. Invincible at this point, and I love the fact that Kenobi acquitted himself rather well.

I was worried about too much Hondo, but he was great in this episode. Almost like a goofier version of Khaaaaaaan.

Script was pretty decent and the pace was good. The animation didn't always look amazing to me, other than the fact that the lightsaber battle was probably the best we've ever seen.

Sometimes when Maul & Savage are walking it seems strange to me. Kinda ape-like or something.

Couple of points worth talking about. Maul yelled each time his metal legs got hit with a bolt. When Brothers came out, I asked if "Mech-Deru" meant "living metal" in the GFFA after watching Maul stretch while still on the slab, and I think I just got my answer...

Didn't take away from the badassery of the episode...
but after watching it three times, the green smoke was strange and I still don't know what to make of it.
Savage's arm I get, but not Maul's metal parts.

Sorry, but before the prequels came out, there was no talk of "subordinate to the higher canon" etc etc. The EU was advertised as part of the actual canon.

That is true, but also not relevant to the matter at hand. The prequels came out years ago, and once they did the principle of canon 'levels' was firmly established. That this situation exists, and the inherent problems and difficulties of continuity across sources it creates are an issue of the Star Wars universe as a whole. They are not something TCW invented and they are not TCW's or Filoni's fault.

Zeta1127 said:

Zahn does his own thing, but in a way that doesn't directly screw with other people's work, unlike TCW.

If you think that Timothy Zahn, or Michael Stackpole, or Troy Denning, or John Ostrander, or Kevin J. Anderson, or any other major creative personage in Star Wars would not take a hatchet to massive chunks of the EU if they were suddenly given the complete and total power to do so you're kidding yourself. Go take a look at some of the AU stories floating around down in the fanfiction forum if you need evidence. Heck, speaking only for myself, if I swapped bodies with George Lucas the Yuuzhan Vong would vanish from Star Wars so fast it'd give Del Rey whiplash.

There is not a soul on this Earth who loves anything and everything within the vastness of the Star Wars EU, it's just too big and encompasses way too many contradictions for that. The shared universe pact that everyone writing C-canon is obligated to follow is basically a giant treaty to agree to disagree and to save massive interpretation differences of events and concepts to insinuation, assumption, and subtext. George Lucas is not bound by that EU-pact, and insofar as C-canon sources are concerned neither is TCW's creative team. If you think that privilege was undeserved, fine, that's a totally valid argument, but said privilege having been conferred, we can't compare the choices of TCW to those of a C-canon creator.

yodaminch said:

But that's basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's saying "because this was wrong and we've invalidated it, we can just do this as well." Rather than try to salvage the material, they'd rather trample it completely. It shows absolutely no respect to the material or to the fans who invested themselves in these stories. This would be like Katie Lucas and co. making a series years from now that tramples all over Ahsoka and Cad Bane's accomplishments and because it is the newer material, anything in the cartoon is just no longer canon. I'm not a fan of just waving a wand and going around saying "This is canon. This isn't. Is. Isn't" etc.

In the general sense yes, I agree that it is not a good idea to retroactively eliminate a source from canon, it is something to be done only with great care, but sometimes it becomes impossible to simply fudge the facts together anymore and you have to pick either option A or option B. I think, in the specific case of Obsession, that point has been reached. I simply do not see any reasonable way to square the circle of those events with the ones in TCW at this time without totally destroying the development of Asajj Ventress in both sources, which would render everything meaningless. The clean solution seems to be obvious: place an Infinities label over Obsession and label it non-canon. I don't enjoy suggesting this, I really liked that comic and even at one point began a fan-fiction based off its events, but that seems to be where we stand.

My point earlier was this: IfObsession is an Infinities title, then the death of Adi Gallia in TCW S5E01, Revival is not a continuity error any more.

From what I've gathered, the only elements of EU that are worthy of complete respect by LucasFilm is the Knights of the Old Republic video games, the movie novelizations, The Force Unleashed Video Games, and Dark Empire I&II.

I liked this episode the best of all the Maul episodes so far by a wide margin, but the ironic thing is that I also thought that Maul and Savage basically came across as chumps (other than killing Adi). Their plans (convoluted plans at that) floundered, the pirates they enlisted quickly turned back on them, they got beaten up, and then they ran... literally ran, one of them without an arm carrying the other one without a leg. I thought the stand out appearances of the episode were Obi-Wan, Hondo (he was great), and Hondo's monkey lizard.

Well I guess this whole episode really did cost Maul and Savage.
*puts on sunglasses*
An arm and a leg.

I actually really liked the mist effect of the spirit ichor bleeding out, both for Maul and Savage. It helps to show that neither one is wholly of the physical world anymore. Savage's body has been saturated with ichor in order to make him the hulking monster he is, and though Maul's legs used salvaged super battle droid parts as a base, they were alchemically altered with ichor to form the final product. Both were imbued with the stuff, and I thought it was a nice touch to see that it's substantial enough to actually reside inside of them and pour out through a wound.

I actually really liked the mist effect of the spirit ichor bleeding out, both for Maul and Savage. It helps to show that neither one is wholly of the physical world anymore. Savage's body has been saturated with ichor in order to make him the hulking monster he is, and though Maul's legs used salvaged super battle droid parts as a base, they were alchemically altered with ichor to form the final product. Both were imbued with the stuff, and I thought it was a nice touch to see that it's substantial enough to actually reside inside of them and pour out through a wound.