Maybe. And if you asked "Are Orthodox going to be saved" I think many Orthodox could still answer with a maybe. If Orthodoxy is what it says it is, then it offers tools for getting closer to salvation; but formal membership is not a guarantee of salvation. And on the other side of the coin, while those outside Orthodox lack certain spiritual tools, they are not necessarily damned. Some Orthodox even hope and pray that no one, or at least none except perhaps the Hitler/Stalin types, are headed for damnation. An important factor here is that the Orthodox do not see salvation as a one-time-event... e.g. you say a prayer or get dunked in baptism and --POOF-- you're saved. The Orthodox, and traditional Christians in general, see salvation as a process--one that, according to some, continues even after death in a number of potential ways.

Regarding people who start religions/cults, and being judged about damage that is caused, that's an interesting question. I don't know the answer, but I have often wondered that myself. For example, was Origen condemned because he believed wrongly, or at least partly because he had such an influence and his beliefs created controversy long after his death? St. Photius speaks of ignoring the theological errors of people (e.g. St. Augustine), why was this "covering of the nakedness" not done for Origen's perceived errors? From an Orthodox perspective, did not St. Augustine's teachings cause more trouble through the centuries than Origen's? I don't know.

All Non-Christians, and all those those claimed to be Christian but did not fullfill their requied duties delineated by the Lord Jesus Christ and his Holy Apostles (all of them...this includes taking valid sacraments) are placed Sheol, and then in the Final Judgment are condemned to Hell perpetually. Death and Sheol are thrown into the lake of fire :

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14

This is the teaching of the Assyrian Church of the East which had Jesus Christ's relatives preside over it.

I am not sure what the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches...

I gave you a formal warning for trolling the Faith Issues board with your ACOE doctrines just a couple of days ago, and you apologized. Then you post this. Either you're being extremely careless or you aren't really sorry for what you did. Any way you look at it, this is a violation of the purpose of the Faith Issues board while you were already on Warned status for committing the same offense just a few days ago. For this reason I am placing you on Post Moderation for the next 40 days. If you think this action wrong, feel free to appeal it via private message to Fr. George.

Wanted to ask the Orthodox take on this so if these people are grown up in whatever religion (Islam, Buddhism) what is their salvation? Will they be rejected come after death?

And also what is the judgment of one who starts a religion and cult? Does that person also gets judged for the damage that is caused in the future as well?

Why do you want to know?

oh just curious because if say someone started a new religion like Muhammad did and the billion that follow it, are those that follow it condemned and shouldn't Muhammad be condemned for his action on deceiving the flock?

And let's say that after Muhammad dies, faces judgment from God...does GOD take account for the future events in how big Islam gets and applies it to his judgment (future events influence the judgment??)

Wanted to ask the Orthodox take on this so if these people are grown up in whatever religion (Islam, Buddhism) what is their salvation? Will they be rejected come after death?

And also what is the judgment of one who starts a religion and cult? Does that person also gets judged for the damage that is caused in the future as well?

Why do you want to know?

oh just curious because if say someone started a new religion like Muhammad did and the billion that follow it, are those that follow it condemned and shouldn't Muhammad be condemned for his action on deceiving the flock?

And let's say that after Muhammad dies, faces judgment from God...does GOD take account for the future events in how big Islam gets and applies it to his judgment (future events influence the judgment??)

I'm just curious because you started this thread while you were donning your atheist hat and poo-pooing our Christian faith on a few other threads you started on the Free-For-All boards. I'm just trying to figure out how to respond to you. Do you really care to know what we think, or do you intend to eventually use what you learn here against us in another of your atheistic rants?

Wanted to ask the Orthodox take on this so if these people are grown up in whatever religion (Islam, Buddhism) what is their salvation? Will they be rejected come after death?

And also what is the judgment of one who starts a religion and cult? Does that person also gets judged for the damage that is caused in the future as well?

Why do you want to know?

oh just curious because if say someone started a new religion like Muhammad did and the billion that follow it, are those that follow it condemned and shouldn't Muhammad be condemned for his action on deceiving the flock?

And let's say that after Muhammad dies, faces judgment from God...does GOD take account for the future events in how big Islam gets and applies it to his judgment (future events influence the judgment??)

Orthodox eschatology tells us that Mohammad has not yet been judged. Actually, no one has been resurrected...save Christ and his Most Pure Mother.

As for the salvation of those outside the Church, we truly believe that God desires none should perish but that all should come to repentence, including the "Hilter/Stalin types." some, mostly monastics, have taken up the aceticism to pray for the ultimate salvation of all, even Satan himself.

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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

I think this has been pretty well covered from the various posts, but just to chime in a brief comment.

We are not God, nor are we the Judge. As has been mentioned, Orthodox believe that God "does not desire the death of the sinner, but that he should repent and live." As I understand it, and different than it is in many Western sects, that even extends beyond physical death. Rather than focus on "who gets to go to heaven," I think the Orthodox approach is more about theosis and communion with God now - today.

well what about those that may have heard Christ then reject it based on a Christian? Guess that guy is damned eh?

I am a little confused by the nature of this comment. Most of the Orthodox replies on this thread have indicated that God's desire is for the salvation of all and this His mercy is greater than any of us. I do not know how "Guess that guy is damned, eh?" fits in with the comments thus far. Most of the people on hear are not willing to judge anyone's (including their own) eternal salvation - why would we agree with that statement?

As to the comment itself: I, too, have met 'Christians' whose teachings would push me away from Christ, not towards Him. There are versions of Christianity that people rightly reject. There are people who profess to follow Christ but know nothing about His mercy or love. I know people who have left various 'Christian' groups and become Buddhist or atheist because of the hyperjudgmental God they learned about in sermons and experienced in the life of the congregation. Does God "damn" them for that? As a human father, who is sinful and full of passions, that idea repulses me.

God is not "damning" people, but saving them. God is not working to send people to hell (nor, it is argued, does He 'send' anyone to hell), but rather in His love and mercy, He desires that all enter paradise.

well what about those that may have heard Christ then reject it based on a Christian? Guess that guy is damned eh?

St. Paul speaks about such people that he knew personally and loved:

Quote from: Romans 9 (NIV)

1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel.

Whether or not you reject Christ, there's always room for love and prayer and hope for that person's salvation. We leave the judgment up to God, but we don't and we can't judge ourselves.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 12:22:23 PM by minasoliman »

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Wanted to ask the Orthodox take on this so if these people are grown up in whatever religion (Islam, Buddhism) what is their salvation? Will they be rejected come after death?

And also what is the judgment of one who starts a religion and cult? Does that person also gets judged for the damage that is caused in the future as well?

Why do you want to know?

oh just curious because if say someone started a new religion like Muhammad did and the billion that follow it, are those that follow it condemned and shouldn't Muhammad be condemned for his action on deceiving the flock?

And let's say that after Muhammad dies, faces judgment from God...does GOD take account for the future events in how big Islam gets and applies it to his judgment (future events influence the judgment??)

IMHO, as Christians we know some things God does and has done. I think it is a little arrogant for mere humans to assume we know ALL that God does and has done throughout the entire universe and for all time. How, when, and by what means God brings humans to salvation is up to God. What is up to me is to follow the way God has outlined for me.

Of course I believe Orthodoxy is the right way. I am simply saying God may have more going on than my little brain can grasp, infinity and the universe being the rather large factors that they are.

Maybe. And if you asked "Are Orthodox going to be saved" I think many Orthodox could still answer with a maybe. If Orthodoxy is what it says it is, then it offers tools for getting closer to salvation; but formal membership is not a guarantee of salvation. And on the other side of the coin, while those outside Orthodox lack certain spiritual tools, they are not necessarily damned. Some Orthodox even hope and pray that no one, or at least none except perhaps the Hitler/Stalin types, are headed for damnation. An important factor here is that the Orthodox do not see salvation as a one-time-event... e.g. you say a prayer or get dunked in baptism and --POOF-- you're saved. The Orthodox, and traditional Christians in general, see salvation as a process--one that, according to some, continues even after death in a number of potential ways.

Regarding people who start religions/cults, and being judged about damage that is caused, that's an interesting question. I don't know the answer, but I have often wondered that myself. For example, was Origen condemned because he believed wrongly, or at least partly because he had such an influence and his beliefs created controversy long after his death? St. Photius speaks of ignoring the theological errors of people (e.g. St. Augustine), why was this "covering of the nakedness" not done for Origen's perceived errors? From an Orthodox perspective, did not St. Augustine's teachings cause more trouble through the centuries than Origen's? I don't know.

For example, was Origen condemned because he believed wrongly, or at least partly because he had such an influence and his beliefs created controversy long after his death? St. Photius speaks of ignoring the theological errors of people (e.g. St. Augustine), why was this "covering of the nakedness" not done for Origen's perceived errors? From an Orthodox perspective, did not St. Augustine's teachings cause more trouble through the centuries than Origen's?

I think intention is a pretty significant point to consider here that may acquit Origen and Augustine somewhat. Someone like Arius, OTOH...

All Non-Christians, and all those those claimed to be Christian but did not fullfill their requied duties delineated by the Lord Jesus Christ and his Holy Apostles (all of them...this includes taking valid sacraments) are placed Sheol, and then in the Final Judgment are condemned to Hell perpetually. Death and Sheol are thrown into the lake of fire :

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14

This is the teaching of the Assyrian Church of the East which had Jesus Christ's relatives preside over it.

Wanted to ask the Orthodox take on this so if these people are grown up in whatever religion (Islam, Buddhism) what is their salvation?

Their Saviour is Christ, as it is for all of us, and being the Almighty God Who loves His Creation, He wants the Salvation of all, and therefore if He can find any way to save anyone, He will. In the the 10th Chapter of the Book of Acts, we read about Cornelius, a Gentile centurion in the Roman Army who was neither Jewish nor Christian, yet he is described as: "a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.." (Acts 10:2) So this was a non-Christian, non-Jewish righteous man who cared for the poor and worshipped God as he understood Him. And he is assured by an Angel from God that "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God." (Acts 10:4). Note that Cornelius' prayers and alms were remembered by God even before he was a Christian or had even heard of Christ.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

I do as well, but I have come across people who make exceptions for the "really really bad people". I guess it's an attempt to keep justice as a part of the equation, without actually changing how exactly you look at the concept of justice. As I look back at what I wrote, I see that it was phrased horribly, and perhaps I should have said something more along the lines of: "Some Orthodox even hope and pray that no one is headed for damnation (though at least some that I've met make exceptions for the Hitler/Stalin types, who are just considered to be too evil)".

It is an almost demonic protestant innovation to deal with the scriptures in single-line "strikes", completely out of context.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 08:44:49 PM by NicholasMyra »

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

It is an almost demonic protestant innovation to deal with the scriptures in single-line "strikes", completely out of context.

For sure. But if I we as gonna run with it the koran seems to express love for jesus the messiah while denying his divinity although in a battle of out of context scripture quotes jesus ( im paraphraasing because im on the ocean withouy my bible typing on my phone) says something to the effect of blaspheming him is forgivable bit not blblasphemimg the.holy.ghost. Ssoooo a pius muslim woulf still re side in the mayne category

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one come to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. - Acts 4:12

A man cannot otherwise enter into the kingdom of God than by the name of His beloved Son. - Hermas (150 A.D)

Open your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other name than by His great and glorious name. - Hermas (150 A.D.)

But there is no other [way] than this: to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the rest, to live sinless lives. - Justin Martyr (160 A.D.)

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O God be merciful to me a sinner. You, O Lord who created me, have mercy on me. I have sinned without number,O Lord, have mercy on me and forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one come to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. - Acts 4:12

A man cannot otherwise enter into the kingdom of God than by the name of His beloved Son. - Hermas (150 A.D)

Open your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other name than by His great and glorious name. - Hermas (150 A.D.)

But there is no other [way] than this: to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the rest, to live sinless lives. - Justin Martyr (160 A.D.)

So, how do you interpret this? What do you want us to understand? In your own words...

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one come to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. - Acts 4:12

A man cannot otherwise enter into the kingdom of God than by the name of His beloved Son. - Hermas (150 A.D)

Open your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other name than by His great and glorious name. - Hermas (150 A.D.)

But there is no other [way] than this: to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the rest, to live sinless lives. - Justin Martyr (160 A.D.)

So, how do you interpret this? What do you want us to understand? In your own words...

a person might not know who christ is but if they happen to make it to heaven then it was on;ly but clearance of Jesus kinda like the sun shine on the blind weather they know it or not

That's not what I meant. The particular judgment surely has occurred for Mohammad. Still, the Final Judgment is yet to come.

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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

I'm curious how many people here actually know what either Buddha or Mohammed taught? I can't imagine a Muslim Christian, perhaps because of my narrow and ignorant view. But I can certainly imagine a Buddhist Christian. In Zen, to take one example, there's really nothing to contradict the teachings of Christ. Zen teachers simply do not cover the same ground. It is a non-scriptural tradition that emphasizes experience over understanding and traditionally doesn't seek to verbalize much about even that--much like the apophatic (sp?) tradition of the hesychasts. And much of what they teach about the the nature of mind and the craft of concentration, if you will, could be useful to us in our own practices of prayer and meditation.

^I think it is difficult for you to imagine a Muslim Christian because it really isn't possible to be one. Someone who follows the teachings of Islam clearly does not give credence to Christian tradition and scripture and certainly denies the divinity of Christ.

I don't claim to be an authority on Buddhism, but there are some posters on this forum who are extremely knowledgeable on the subject. My opinion, however, is that the major Buddhist traditions (I'm most familiar with Theravada and Mahayana) are, in some ways, incompatible with practicing Christianity, in large part due to their perspective on the world, chronology, soul, etc. I have read arguments that Christ is, in fact, the Great Bodhisattva, or something along those lines, but that is not a particularly orthodox understanding. I guess, in a very similar vein as a recent Tai Chi/Yoga thread related to this, my question would be: Is Zen, removed from particularly Buddhist spiritual understandings, still really Buddhism?

I don't doubt that practices such as Zen, Yoga, Tai-Chi, etc have beneficial qualities, but I find it peculiar (please note that I did not write "wrong") that people want to somehow integrate these practices into Orthodox Christianity. I recognize the similarities between Zen and Hesychasm, but Hesychasm is also very different and was developed strictly within the confines of Christianity.

^I think it is difficult for you to imagine a Muslim Christian because it really isn't possible to be one. Someone who follows the teachings of Islam clearly does not give credence to Christian tradition and scripture and certainly denies the divinity of Christ.

I don't claim to be an authority on Buddhism, but there are some posters on this forum who are extremely knowledgeable on the subject. My opinion, however, is that the major Buddhist traditions (I'm most familiar with Theravada and Mahayana) are, in some ways, incompatible with practicing Christianity, in large part due to their perspective on the world, chronology, soul, etc. I have read arguments that Christ is, in fact, the Great Bodhisattva, or something along those lines, but that is not a particularly orthodox understanding. I guess, in a very similar vein as a recent Tai Chi/Yoga thread related to this, my question would be: Is Zen, removed from particularly Buddhist spiritual understandings, still really Buddhism?

I don't doubt that practices such as Zen, Yoga, Tai-Chi, etc have beneficial qualities, but I find it peculiar (please note that I did not write "wrong") that people want to somehow integrate these practices into Orthodox Christianity. I recognize the similarities between Zen and Hesychasm, but Hesychasm is also very different and was developed strictly within the confines of Christianity.

Well,I have a particular perspective, having been a Zen monk for 16 years. I don't believe Zen practices could be integrated into Orthodox Christianity, but some of them could possibly be practiced parallel to it. Or some of the techniques of mind training translated into an Orthodox vernacular, as it were. Some Tibetan teachings, such as the Mahayana Lojong, might lend themselves to that adaptation as well. (I'm not saying this would be desirable; I'm only saying it might be possible.) Some traditions--the Vajrayana traditions in particular--I would say are incompatible with Christianity. BTW--When you say "Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism," you've included essentially all of the world's Buddhists. But within those designations there are just as many divisions as there are within the Christian world (broadly defined), if not more. It's important to be quite specific. Zen, Nichiren, Pure Land, and Tibetan practices are all Mahayana, yet they are very different from each other, both from the standpoint of praxis and, to a certain extent, epistemologically.

BTW--When you say "Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism," you've included essentially all of the world's Buddhists. But within those designations there are just as many divisions as there are within the Christian world (broadly defined), if not more.

Thank you for the perspective and clarification. There are differing opinions regarding some classifications, but I certainly defer to your knowledge on the subject. I was unable to judge your level of familiarity from your post, and there are countless people who are "in to" Zen, who are relatively clueless about Buddhist teachings. Obviously, you are not one of them.

Quote

It's important to be quite specific. Zen, Nichiren, Pure Land, and Tibetan practices are all Mahayana, yet they are very different from each other, both from the standpoint of praxis and, to a certain extent, epistemologically.

Most certainly, were I trying to explain or discuss the merits of Buddhism. However, as egregiously oversimplified as my statement was, the intricacies of Buddhism's diversity are not particularly relevant or necessary to my primary point: that Buddhism's philosophies and teachings are outside of and, in many cases, contrary to the Christian tradition.

I do as well, but I have come across people who make exceptions for the "really really bad people". I guess it's an attempt to keep justice as a part of the equation, without actually changing how exactly you look at the concept of justice. As I look back at what I wrote, I see that it was phrased horribly, and perhaps I should have said something more along the lines of: "Some Orthodox even hope and pray that no one is headed for damnation (though at least some that I've met make exceptions for the Hitler/Stalin types, who are just considered to be too evil)".

I'm curious how many people here actually know what either Buddha or Mohammed taught? I can't imagine a Muslim Christian, perhaps because of my narrow and ignorant view. But I can certainly imagine a Buddhist Christian. In Zen, to take one example, there's really nothing to contradict the teachings of Christ. Zen teachers simply do not cover the same ground. It is a non-scriptural tradition that emphasizes experience over understanding and traditionally doesn't seek to verbalize much about even that--much like the apophatic (sp?) tradition of the hesychasts. And much of what they teach about the the nature of mind and the craft of concentration, if you will, could be useful to us in our own practices of prayer and meditation.

One of the main issues is that one cannot really commit to the Three Refuges and really be a Christian.

I think this question is very essentially Protestant. Like others have said, our Church does not teach us, Orthodox, that we all are already "saved" because of this or that. AFAIK, in Orthodox theology, salvation is not something that happens instantaneously so that a person can say, "I was saved on Monday, February the 15th, 19..., at 3:30 p.m." Salvation is our entire life. It is a long, long road that does not end even when we die (because our final fate can still be changed by the prayers of the Church). Whether or not God decides during the Final Judgment that a particular individual Muslim or a particular individual Buddhist was actually moving up this salvation "road" or the other way, is entirely His prerogative, on which we have no comment. We only know that He is so merciful that He can and will save everyone who can be saved (while some people perhaps cannot be saved because they don't want it, and God does not oppose an individual's free will).

I'm curious how many people here actually know what either Buddha or Mohammed taught? I can't imagine a Muslim Christian, perhaps because of my narrow and ignorant view. But I can certainly imagine a Buddhist Christian. In Zen, to take one example, there's really nothing to contradict the teachings of Christ. Zen teachers simply do not cover the same ground. It is a non-scriptural tradition that emphasizes experience over understanding and traditionally doesn't seek to verbalize much about even that--much like the apophatic (sp?) tradition of the hesychasts. And much of what they teach about the the nature of mind and the craft of concentration, if you will, could be useful to us in our own practices of prayer and meditation.

One of the main issues is that one cannot really commit to the Three Refuges and really be a Christian.

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.