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Im a republican and my wife is Mexican.... We hate illegal immigrants breaking the law we arent racist.

Out of curiosity, in the past there were laws in many states against interracial marriage, do you hate everyone who was engaged in interracial relationships and marriage because it was illegal?

Do you hate those who engaged in this illicit activity prior to the June 12, 1967, Loving v. Virginia ruling?

I too am in an interracial marriage and the stupid laws where I live existed from 1888 to 1963. Just as those laws were ignorant so too are the current day immigration policies that are the cause of the "illegal immigrants".

chaogenus, you stated it beautifully and the fact that there are people like you who also see the similarities gives me hope for humanity as a whole (whereas the fact that I love E!'s The Soup and the stupidity on those reality shows destroys that hope, but I digress).

I see similarities between laws in the past targeting religious groups, other legal immigrants, slaves, etc.

And it is just sad when we reach a point where we treat human beings in any way that is less than human. I would rather break our tax laws and go to a white-collar federal prison than ever end up in a detention center. When we treat those who break our immigration laws in a manner similar to those who break other laws to which it is being compared, then I will consider those arguments. We treat them as criminals while denying them the right to counsel (we get around this by making the proceedings "administrative" not criminal in nature), the right to fair and humane treatment, and the avenues to address their concerns/assert their basic rights as human beings, which I believe exist no matter who you are, where you are, or where you came from. To treat human beings as anything less is to make yourself something lower than human.

why do you HATE someone who is trying to make a better life for themselves? Do you also hate corrupt politicians who don't represent your best interests? Do you care that the big banks destroyed our economy and caused measurable damage to millions of americans?

I think your HATE is misdirected and i feel sorry for your children's future

He hates people that knowingly break the law for their own self-interest which, under that definition, would include both illegal immigrants, corporate malfeasance, and government corruption. Hating one group of criminals does not invalidate the actions of another.

They are all done to advance a person's own interests over those of others.

They are all done to purposely circumvent a lawful system that works for the majority of those abiding by it.

All the crimes above have a negative effect upon those who abide by the law. There is no such thing as a "victim-less crime" and it's ridiculous to have a pissing match over "which crime is worse".

There is a system in place to legally immigrate to this country and it is used by thousands of people every year successfully. Those who don't wish to abide by that system, for whatever reason, are criminals. To treat them any differently is a slap in the face to every legal immigrant to this country, to our laws, and to society as a whole.

I think it's a fairly straightforward question but since your level of derp is too high to understand it, let me phrase it differently:

If our legal immigration system "sucks" so badly, why does the US have the highest number of accepted immigrants per year?

If your assumption (that the legal entry system "sucks") is correct, then logic would dictate that there would be fewer accepted immigrants per year then at least one other large nation in the world. But this isn't the case.

Those who don't wish to abide by that system, for whatever reason, are criminals. To treat them any differently is a slap in the face to every legal immigrant to this country, to our laws, and to society as a whole.

When the system tells most people who decide to become illegals "go fuck yourselves", then it is understandable when they don't follow it. Illegals have a place because there are those who want extremely cheap labor. These days they have become a political talking point as conservatives try to paint them as job thieves (they tend to ignore the fact that the reason they get these jobs is because their employers want to pay below minimum wage with otherwise illegal working conditions).

There is a system in place to legally immigrate to this country and it is used by thousands of people every year successfully.

Yes, those who fit the criteria. Those who don't aren't allowed to use the system.

Illegals have a place because there are those who want extremely cheap labor....they tend to ignore the fact that the reason they get these jobs is because their employers want to pay below minimum wage with otherwise illegal working conditions)

So your rationale is we should support illegal immigration so that unethical businesses can circumvent labor laws?

It is just sad when we reach a point where we treat human beings in any way that is less than human. I would rather break our tax laws and go to a white-collar federal prison after having a fair trial and being represented at govt/tax payer expense than ever end up in a detention center. When we treat those who break our immigration laws in a manner similar to those who break other laws to which it is being compared, then I will consider those arguments. We treat them as criminals while denying them the right to counsel (we get around this by making the proceedings "administrative" not criminal in nature), denying them the right to fair and humane treatment, and denying them the avenues to address their concerns/assert their basic rights as human beings, which I believe exist no matter who you are, where you are, or where you came from. To treat human beings as anything less is to make yourself something lower than human. To assume there are similarities between the acts while ignoring the treatment after being "caught" is faulty reasoning in my mind.

Half a million soldiers died in the Civil War for us to make it clear that if you are lucky enough to be born here, you are a citizen; granted all the rights and responsibilities thereof, and absolved of the mistakes of your parents. It is one of our most cherished traditions, a symbol for our highest ideals... and those racist southern xenophobes are trying to take it away from people once again.

You're right. Let's not forget the "anchor baby" scare, a plot which told us that illegal immigrants are dropping their terrorist babies here as part of a physical war of violence against the US so that these US citizen children could grow up to attack us.

It is possible for a child to be, um, imported. It's actually not uncommon, and it's a huge problem for the child if they end up deported, because they grew up here. They are in deep trouble if they are caught, and they are in deeper trouble if they end up back "home" where they don't know the language, culture, etc.

That said, my comment was a little bit tongue-in-cheek. "I'm not sure they are even above anyone on their hierarchy." Well, there is a slot underneath where some non-citizen children fit.

Leave it up to liberal, bleeding heart redditors to make an illegal immigraton issue all about race. This legislation is made to target illegal, I repeat, illegal immigrmats. Are the large majority of illegal immigrants hispanic? Yes, but that doesn't make this law racist, it affects illegals all the samee whther they're, white, black, hispanic, asian, or arabic.

Does that matter? I know it's profiling but can you deny that its just? This law was made to discourage illegals from living in Alabama, I'm sure 99% of illegals in Alabama are hispanic, until a hispanic citizen is denied food stamps it's an immigration law, not a racial one.

The only reason those children are citizens is because they're anchor babies. They became citizens because of an amendment that was originally made to naturalize slaves. Believe it or not there are a lot of people that believe this amendment should be nullified, which would probably lower illegal immigration plenty.

And I agree with you, these people aren't being unjust, they're trying to make it the best they can, the fact of the matter is they're doing it illegally. There are hundreds of thousands of people each year that come to America and go about becoming citizens the right way. These people sneaking into the country and staying illegally is completely unfair and insulting to all the immigrants who did it the right way.

Not only that with American unemployment at 8.5% do we really want illegals taking jobs from citizens? I know it sounds cliche but the fact of the matter is, is that it happens and it significantly lowers tax revenue and hurts our economy. The legislators of Alabama aren't passing this law out of spite, they're doing it for the sake of their own state. I know if you look around somewhere on this thread someone posted in article which describes how the unemployment in Alabama has plummeted since the passing of their last immigration law.

Believe it or not there are a lot of people that believe this amendment should be nullified, which would probably lower illegal immigration plenty.

It would almost certainly not lower illegal immigration, as it would take a class of people who are currently legal citizens (children of immigrants born in the US) and make them illegal immigrants (though immigrants from where, I don't know).

These people sneaking into the country and staying illegally is completely unfair and insulting to all the immigrants who did it the right way.

Why? Not being obtuse, seriously, can you give me a concrete example of how someone illegally immigrating infringes on the rights of someone who legally immigrated? And I don't even know what you mean by "insulting" - in any case, we shouldn't base public policy on keeping people's feelings from getting hurt.

Not only that with American unemployment at 8.5% do we really want illegals taking jobs from citizens? I know it sounds cliche but the fact of the matter is, is that it happens and it significantly lowers tax revenue and hurts our economy.

I think there are plenty of arguments that have been made a million times that suggest that all of what you say here is fallacious. Not to belabor the point, but: A) you can argue that immigrants do jobs most American's don't want, and B) the easiest way for illegals and their employers to get busted by INS is by not paying taxes, so most file taxes under fake names and SSNs. What most do NOT do, is file tax returns and get refunds, which, from the amount of money that they make, probably means that most illegals overpay on their taxes.

I know if you look around somewhere on this thread someone posted in article which describes how the unemployment in Alabama has plummeted since the passing of their last immigration law.

And there are also arguments made here that the two facts are in no way connected, and that AL's drop in unemployment is most likely due to the auto industry and the fact that unemployement has dropped across the country.

I don't know, personally, I don't see why anyone without a criminal background is denied entry to the US. In an open society, that seems to me to be the much greater injustice.

I personally don't get why US born children should automatically be considered citizens. If there parents are here illegally, then they should be illegal immigrants. Its not our fault that their parents immigrated illegally. Make immigration easier, thats fine with me, but illegal immigration should be frowned upon, and they should get no citizen benefits.

I was born on US soil, both my parents are British, though my grandmother is Chinese, I have dual nationality. I am an American citizen because I was born in America.

If you don't like it then go and see if you can find enough racist fucktards to go and change the constitution, until you do you can stop using it as a basis for your racism. Did someone link this thread on fucking Stormfront or something?

Racism is entirely different than positions on immigration. You can be against illegal immigration because you are racist, but it doesn't mean you are racist if you are against illegal immigration. Nor does racism necessarily have to be a prerequisite for not thinking you should or shouldn't be considered a citizen.

The issue at hand stated by the premise of the parent article is whether or not people born here should automatically be citizens. The argument is that their illegal parents get special benefits just because they happened to pop a baby out on US soil, however the parents are still ILLEGAL, and hence can pay no taxes apart from sales tax, yet get benefits.

Frankly, your 1/4 Chinese ancestry doesn't make you an authority on racial persecution in and of itself. Though you may have other experience.

You shouldn't be considered a citizen just based upon your birth. Note that my position doesn't mean that I think people who want to come here shouldn't have an easier time immigrating.

Go fuck yourself, I'm entirely uninterested in your shrivelled little opinion of what I should be considered to be. I am a citizen, go rewrite the constitution or go take a flying fuck, I'm fairly certain you'll fail at either venture.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Unless you are a legal immigrant, then you are one of those people who was granted automatic US citizenship when you were born. There is nothing wrong with being granted automatic citizenship to the country you are born in.

There is something wrong with immigrating illegally however. The problem we face with immigration is how difficult and long it takes to become a citizen. I dunno if you guys have ever seen some of the example test they give, but (here comes my made up statistic) i doubt 60-70% of Americans could pass it. We need to have easier, and less time consuming legal immigration and then more strict illegal immigration punishment.

The test you reference is only for being granted citizenship, first you have to obtain legal residency, which is far, FAR harder and more expensive than most people realize. My husband is Irish, and I am sponsoring him by marriage, and the process still involves a minimum income level on my part, background checks for both of us, medical exams for him, mountains of paperwork and several thousand dollars in fees..and that's doing it the 'easy' way! Most people have no clue what the process actually involves.

Because what would the alternative be? How would a child get citizenship? Would they not be citizens to a certain point and then have to take a test? What if they fail that test? Would we deport a citizens child because they themselves couldn't becomes citizens? It just makes sense for you to automatically be a citizen of the country you are born.

They already did that when the immigration law went into legislation a lot left the state. And it has proved whites and blacks won't do the labor they were doing for the pay. They'd rather collect unemployment or welfare.

Fuck those greedy Americans for not working as cheaply as the 3rd world! Like some goddamn whiny Union, complaining that we're working them too long in the mines. Pathetic.

Joke is on them, though. We'll just keep making more and more minor crimes felonies and ramp up prison labor. Why pay a Mexican $5/hr and risk getting accidentally caught by the Feds when we can pay a kid sitting in a cage on a drug charge 25 cents... and then charge him to buy his own underwear! Brilliant!

I think the law is a stupid, evil reconstitution of Jim Crow, but I've yet to hear a report of one of these farmers who adjusted by raising wages to entice these "lazy Americans" they keep bitching about. The wages paid to farm workers are a fairly small part of the cost of the final product, and if the farms were to agree to standards of wages, conditions, and benefits, they could market their produce as some variation of "fair trade" produce, mitigating the rise in their costs with increased marketability across the country.

But they will never do that, because for as long as America has had labor regulations, the farm lobby has successfully killed most attempts to bring wage, practice, and benefit standards up to those in other industries.

Right after the legislation went into effect I remember reading - either here on Reddit or on a news site somewhere - comments from unemployed, white, early-20s people who refused to take on the farm work because, and I quote, "$15 an hour is bullshit, I'll just keep collecting my unemployment."

We're not talking a piddly amount of money here, we're talking a good solid, honest wage for a day's work. If you want me to believe that $150 dollars a day (they were requiring ten hour days because they were running out of time to finish the harvest before the crops rotted in the fields) with overtime at time and a half for any hours over 40 per week (they were working 6 day weeks, so that's a guaranteed 20 hours of time and a half at per week). That's $1050.00 per week (before taxes). Any one of those 20-somethings could have taken the job, put in a little good, honest work, and made a killing over what they make on unemployment.

Besides, your argument leaves out a very important point. The main reason American farmers are afraid to raise the wages of their workers, and therefor the cost of their goods, is because American consumers will stop buying their food, especially during an economic downturn. People are barely managing to buy food as it is, they're not going to start paying an additional amount just so we can employ legal citizens instead of illegal migrant workers. All that would do is put the small farmer out of business, increase the profits of the corporate farms (less competition, their diversity allows them to recoup the losses they would have to take in raising wages without raising prices), and cause an even larger trade gap for the country as we'd be importing even more of our food from Mexico, South America, and China.

I'm going to need some credible sources (not comment bullshit in the Birmingham Blowhard). My point is that I heard no figures about potential wages, no reports at all where farmers talked at all about wages (they use subcontractors, anyway, so who exactly gets the bulk of that supposed $15/hr?), no evidence at all. Every media report was "look at this shitty law" or "produce rotting on the ground."

It's nice that our solution to people illegally coming from the third world to our country is to make a little piece of the third world here in the US for them to live in.

And to all the people here saying: "I'm not against immigration, just illegal immigration":

Why? What is so unjust about illegal immigration that makes you hate it so? And don't say that you believe that the law should ALWAYS be followed, cause I know all y'all motherfuckers run stop signs, break the speed limit, and "estimate" on your taxes. What's qualitatively different about people who come to this country to pick fruit without proper papers than the laws we all break?

I will say exactly that "I am not against immigration, just illegal immigration".

First I will say why I support legal immigration. Immigration is extremely important to our country, and has been throughout history. Everyone in our country comes from some ancestor who was an immigrant. Some of our best minds are immigrants, or descendants or relatively recent immigrants such as many of our Universities professors as well as many doctors and scientist. Beyond that, we should feel proud as a country that people want to come and live and prosper here.

Now why am I against illegal immigration, and what is the difference? Well the difference is that illegal immigration holds a lot of danger. If we just have complete open borders, or don't do anything about the illegal immigrants we find, then we are opening ourselves to increases in crime, and especially smuggling weapons/drugs (harmful drugs, not Marijuana). Beyond that, if we just allow all illegal immigrants in with no penalty, what is the motivation to try and attain citizenship? It takes way to long and is much more difficult than it needs to be (This is what needs changed! Make becoming a legal citizen easier, not stop caring whether an immigrant is legal or not.).

Also, as a side note, I try my darndest to drive at or below the speed limit and think speed limits should be limits and not "this number+7" :P

it's the blatant hypocrisy that is most galling and least surprising. not a one of us would be here without gross violations of treaties signed with native americans - that u.s. citizens promptly broke. so the illegal immigrants are now bitching about illegal immigrants.

to be anti-immigrant is to be anti-american in the truest sense. and all this crap about them using public services paid for by our tax dollars? STFU, you don't get to pick and choose. otherwise, not one cent of my money would go to fund wars of choice, meddling in foreign governments in order to boost corporate profits, or paying a government to continually infringe on basic rights.

We allow immigrants to this country, and there's a system for it. It needs a fuckton of work and improvement though, as we can see all the problems that we have. (hell, we can see we -need- immigrant labor)

Also the argument "we did illegal stuff so can they" doesn't hold water. By that line of reasoning, I can kill whoever I want, since we had to kill Native Americans to take the country in the first place.

i think we can all see behind the curtain enough to know that there's at least some who see anti-illegal immigration and anti-immigration as synonyms. not all, but enough to be noticeable.

and yes, the immigration system we have needs major work. but i think that kicking out people who have come here and busted their asses to make a living (and not all of them have, but many have) is contrary to pretty much everything this country is supposedly about.

i think we can all see behind the curtain enough to know that there's at least some who see anti-illegal immigration and anti-immigration as synonyms. not all, but enough to be noticeable.

Once the same people pushing the "anti-illegal immigration" laws started to attack the 14th ammendment the line becomes readily discernable.

Where I live the governor was working hard on the racist vote by attacking the 14th amendment and either intentionally lied to the citizens of the state or is ignorant of history of the 14th amendment. He repeatedly made claims that the 14th amendment was only meant to address the rights of freed slaves and that the legislators of the time had now way to know what the future held with immigration and babies born to non-citizens.

If one actually reads the history of the debates in the Congressional Globe one quickly discovers that the same racist fear mongering was part of the debates with I believe a congressman from Pennsylvania making absurd claims about the inevitable future the 14th amendment would lead to; the east coast overrun by gypsies and the west coast overrun by the Chinese.

The California congressman chimed in and corrected the ignorant statements about Chinese immigrants from the other legislator and stated clearly that the people of California would not only support the 14th amendment but would consider children born in the state to be U.S citizens no matter what their ethnicity.

So you are correct in your assessment that there is a signifcant foundation in anti-immigration behind these laws.

The illegal immigration is more of a problem than just "what do we do with them" - because it affects so much more. There's the politicians who want to do nothing about the problem, because it helps their rich buddies hire cheap labor. There's the immigrants who have worked their asses off to get here, and become citizens, legally. There's the other citizens who didn't ask all these people to come here without permission, who have to deal with the problems caused. Then there's the illegals themselves, who are in a terrible situation, since they can't really call the police for things, which creates an under-society of crime, which isn't good for anyone. That's just a few of the nuances of the clusterfuck we have.

Okay, just off the top of my head... how about immigrant workers who have to fight for jobs with illegal immigrants, who are willing to work for illegal wages? Or how about surrounding communities that get more crime because of the "unable to call cops" nature of illegals? (mind you, that aspect also applies to stuff like gang violence, so that does overlap)

I like your first point, never thought of that. Maybe that is a problem. Crime one would be a lot harder to deconvolute and quantify. Lots of things contribute to crime that could likely be more directly dealt with.

Well, it's all convoluted, and complicated, and everyone tries to make it out to be a simple issue. It's not all bad, and it's not all good, and most people try to claim one or the other. Politics in this country is fucked, and this is one of their "cat toying with its prey" issues they like to bash us over the head with and try to divide the country against each other with their simplistic sports team like political games.

True. It has never been an issue of worry, fear, (negative emotion) for me. I still don't understand why it's such a "hot button" for so many. I can only presume it's racism, there is more reason to believe that than anything else. Our country would have just as many problems if not more without the number of illegals we have. There aren't enough legal migrant workers to perform the necessary labor. Of course our rich politicians and their corporate friends don't want to raise wages and until then noone born here will perform the work.

Well, it's racism that's instilled on purpose by people in power who want to use fear to control the population. Which is part of the reason they simplify the issue - if people actually thought about it more they'd see what the real problems are and who's actually causing them. (the politicians)

And yes, our immigration system needs an overhaul, it's inefficient and obviously doesn't work well enough.

I would definitely like to see some evidence on that claim. You would basically be turned away while filling out the application. So all the 'clogging' would be limited to longer lines. It wouldn't have much to do with the rest of the system.

Well see here's the thing about 4% of food stamp cases are actually found fraudulent in terms of selling food stamps for non-food items and over payments. The biggest issue in fraudulent food stamps isn't people selling them to grocers(it used to be, but we've found great ways to combat this) for cash, its actually not reporting income. The nation spends on average(outside of two outliers) $3.05 per $100 on fraudulent cases(people who make too much, stolen ID's, dead people that families are slow on updating information/still collecting benefits fraudulently). This comes out to 2.5 billion dollars a year in fraud estimated. We spend 65 billion on food stamp programs(which is more than food stamps etc) so a 4%(3.8 to be precise and its getting better so this will drop) inefficiency.

Of the over payments, 66% of them were errors on the part of the case worker, not anything fraudulent on part of the applicant. The other 33% are people not reporting income, not reporting assets or worse, stealing someone's identity(illegals getting food stamps without kids makes up a smaller % of a small % of cases). Source.

Furthermore, the USDA did a study on who it is getting these programs.

And since we're using personal anecdotes as proof, if your that concerned about welfare fraud in general, Google "Report Welfare fraud <your state here> " and report it. If its as widespread as you guys make it out to be, since everybody always sees it, report it, and fix the problem.

Unfortunately, not all programs like this are actually worth their effect for the damage they do to the population. When it comes between 'lower unemployment' and 'non-citizens aren't allowed to have running water or use a library', I can't in good conscience say that the former is a better option.

Hey, can I get the money going to all those people on welfare as well? I would sure like to be able to pick the families that my welfare money ends up going to (I promise I will only pick families below the poverty line).

Of course there are more job openings, but the state economies are in trouble now that they have nobody to harvest crops. I dont think anyone wants to hold up AL or OK as economic models...unless you live in Mississippi.

is it the immigration law or the fact that auto industry is rebounding very well and Alabama is heavily tied to auto manufacturers? I can't find any actual economist that has said that this law has had a positive impact on unemployment it is only the politicians that fought for the law are saying that. Actual economists that have looked at the situation have varied from saying there is no data that shows the law has had an effect on unemployment all the way to saying it has absolutely not had an impact.

From The Birmingham News:

Ahmad Ijaz, a University of Alabama economist, said he believes it is a stretch to credit the immigration law for Alabama's declining unemployment numbers. He said it is too soon to tell whether the law is actually creating jobs for state residents.

.

From the Montgomery Advertiser:

But Auburn Montgomery economist Keivan Deravi said there was no connection. "It has nothing to do with the immigration law," Deravi said. "If it does, I will tear up my PhD."

"dropping like a rock" ? What planet do you live on Mr. Disingenuous? Dropping ONE percentage point, commensurate with the entire rest of the nation is somehow cause for such dramatic hyperbole?

Nice try, but next time try reading the article.

CBS News Alabama unemployment falls and we’re divided on the reason

There could be any number of reasons among a dozen for why the unemployment rate has fallen. But don't take my word for it, an economist from U of Alabama actually had quite a bit to say on NPR:

none of that job growth was in industries latinos traditionally work in, construction, agriculture and poultry processing. The majority of growth was in the automotive sector where illegals are rare. Link

Illegal immigration was never a real problem in Alabama it's just a hot-button issue republicans can get radical right-wingers to get all hot and bothered about. The original thrust and language of the bill wasn't even created by AL legislators, it was dreamed up by an Ivy League egghead from Kansas who wanted to see how far he could take radical immigration reform across the country.

There are all sorts of statistics that people often measure an economies success by which may have little to do with it's actual health and the happiness and living standard of the people in it. Unemployment is one of them. For example, if one passed a law revoking the citizenship status of all unemployed people, that would cause unemployment to drop to near 0 since it removes them from the statistic, but would probably make people actually less happy.

The problem is that a lot of American businesses rely on illegal immigrants to do difficult, low paying jobs American's wouldn't accept. Driving the immigrants out by persecuting them and their children seems to be working, but it is also cruel and ridiculous in the face of the economic effects that brought them here in the first place.

I cant believe some redneck downvoted you. People will not stop coming here to feed their families by working. If, however, you close the jobs by going after the employers, you can actually get something done. When you focus on the immigrant labor, you simply give more power to those employers over those people. You think an illegal employee is going to call OSHA over abuses in AL under this law?

Actually, we had a pretty clear case of a produce company here in Portland engaging in food safety and labor law shenanigans a couple of years ago. They told their illegals that they'd call ICE if they complained or tried to unionize.

You can find American workers willing to literally wade through sewers to maintain them.

There are divers who dive into giant vats at sewage treatment plants to make repairs.

There are people who work incredibly tedious factory jobs - such as performing the same simple motion all day long.

There are Americans willing to work in plenty of hot and tough environmental conditions - see the workers who work in steel mills and the loggers who work in remote logging camps.

The idea that there are these jobs that Americans are too proud to take is total horse shit. Americans will do plenty of tedious, dangerous, or demeaning jobs. They just won't do so for below market rates.

You can't find workers American citizens to work at your poultry processing plant for $7.25 an hour? Try offering $15 an hour and benefits. Somehow you'll magically find Americans willing to work at your plant.

The idea that there are these jobs that Americans are too proud to take is total horse shit. Americans will do plenty of tedious, dangerous, or demeaning jobs. They just won't do so for below market rates.
You can't find workers American citizens to work at your poultry processing plant for $7.25 an hour? Try offering $15 an hour and benefits. Somehow you'll magically find Americans willing to work at your plant.

Thank you, this comment needs more upvotes. The "Too hard for Americans" propaganda that is spewed out in these debates only benefits unethical businesses and the cowards in Washington.

The problem of anchor babies and heavy abuse of the 14th amendment really needs to be addressed in a clear and final matter by lawmakers. It pretty much makes any investment into CPB in the south and southwest a waste of taxpayers' dollars as well as lending credence to conservative claims that safety net programs do more harm than good by incentivizing immigrants to illegally enter the country and swell the ranks of the welfare class.

To be honest I'm completely against the born = citizen clause as well if neither parent is a citizen. When the majority of our population was immigrant, the clause made sense, but being able to hop the border and spread your legs to get automatic protection of citizenship because, god forbid a US child's illegal parents be considered criminal, "can't have that child be parentless, let's just let them skip the line..."

I honestly don't care whether or not the kids are responsible. The parents don't either - they're using them as a meal ticket. Why should we play that game? It's just a kid. Who gives a shit.

Do you realize how much harm taking a child away from his/her parents does? The child protective services* will sometimes let a child stay with a parent who sexually abused them because the harm done by removing the child can be that much worse (placing the child with a close relative is normally the compromise they will use in such a case, but it isn't always a possibility).

Well if the rest of the world is any indicator, I'd say they need to pay about 10 grand in US taxes to be ignored...

(Child prostitution and abuse in third world countries is mostly done by foreign businessmen, and traveling businessmen usually earn enough to pay at least 10k in us taxes).

As for the nonsequiter in implying that exploiting a child for personal pleasure is ever acceptable vs a kid being brought into the world by people with no means of supporting them... well your own logical fallacy renders it a moot point to address. It's one thing for a child to be abused, it's another for it to suffer due to the environment it was brought into. One's unnatural and immoral, the other's a natural symptom of being born into an environment that can't sustain it.

The first requires punishment, the latter pity and if you're so inclined help. It shouldn't be a social burden, however, when some people in a society create something they can't support.

One's unnatural and immoral, the other's a natural symptom of being born into an environment that can't sustain it.

There is nothing natural about a child being located in a first world country having to be in an environment where they have to suffer.

Two:

The first requires punishment,
Punishment cost a great deal of money, far more to pay for police and jails than to pay to keep a child clothed and fed.

Why are you okay paying your money to investigate cases of child abuse when you don't want the same money to be paid to make sure the child lives?

Also, when it comes down to starving to death or not, if we aren't providing money to help the child live, then why should we ban the one job they don't have to compete with adults against (child prostitution is the one service a child can provide better than an adult)?

To put it plainly, it sounds like you don't think we should spend money to make sure a child doesn't starve to death, but it is okay to spend money to punish someone who is willing to make a trade with the child that actually gives the child a chance to live.

You might think a child having to have sex to live is wrong, but when the only other choice given to that child is to die, shouldn't the child get to actually have a choice as to what it wants. IDEALLY, the child should never have to face such a choice because it should be clothed, fed, and educated, but seeing we are talking about a situation where money is not spent on feeding/clothing/educating the child, at least allow them to do business if they want to.

Yeah, I'd rather not touch those batshit bastards. I'll keep my gun and social safety nets for people and their families that actually followed legal paths to be here. So I guess I'm not either of the dipshit parties we have to choose from here.

I could understand your viewpoint if you had absolutely any idea what you were talking about. A child cannot sponsor their parents for citizenship until they are 21, and no one can adjust status or not be deported just because they have an American baby.

So your wife immigrated here all on her own, without you as a sponsor to help, correct? I ask because because most of the people coming here from Mexico do NOT have American citizens they can have sponsor them, and adjusting status without an American sponsor is extremely difficult. Just want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples here.

I sponsored her since we were already married. I agree with your point on how hard it is to immigrate here or at least get a work permit. We need to change those laws and I fully support that.

I worked in China for 3 years and I, as a guest in their country, followed their rules and regulations to get my working visa. I also had to sign in at the local police station whenever I moved to a new apartment. Their country and their laws I had to follow. Actually, the police were super cool when ever I'd have to register. They'd offer me tea and practice their English.

Bingo. It frustrates me when people that get here legally pay more and hop through more hoops than somebody that drops a crotch-potatoe off here and gets free rights and benefits because "oh the kid can't suffer!"

Double bingo. My wife and I met at a professional conference many years ago, she's Chinese, and a productive tax paying citizen of the US. I have to question what some of these illegals contribute to our society. We have people from all over the world here legally working good jobs and making good coin and help us progress as a country. What do these illegals do? Mow the lawn, work fast food or what. I hear a lot of crap that they work jobs that most Americans wouldn't. Bull-shit to that. My kids would work fast food to buy a new car or put themselves through school, just like I did.

So no, I have no pity for the illegals. The first thing the illegals did when entering our country was break the law, that doesn't leave a good first impression.

Don't get me wrong though, I am pro immigration, but our immigration processes are fucked up and need to be fixed. We need to stream line the process so people who want to move here and be productive can.

They might work fastfood, but that is a job more fit for teenagers and people still in college. What they tend to do is the hard farm labor and other such jobs few teenagers will pick up.

Also, they tend to pay most of the taxes, such as sales tax and car tax. The only tax they will sometimes not pay is income tax, which is because the employer is paying them under the table. In many cases the employer actually charges them the money but pockets it himself as it is all under the table.

The create demand, a steady stream of low income no skill workers, they take little to no social services compared to the average poor citizen, and you can be a bigot towards them without losing your professional career! They are generally a net benefit to the area the go to if they're treated with respect. Beat them down and fuck with their livelihood and they tend to turn to crime, like every time a group was persecuted in history.

I did a paper on this my second year in college, I wish I could find it, but generally, only in terms of small border towns and places with established ghettos did the immigrant population coincide with higher crime rates, and those crime rates weren't all directly tied to the immigrants, as some were racially motivated etc etc.

Human rights are RIGHTS, meaning that you automatically get them just for being human. As to benefits, the illegals don't get them. Only American born children. And even then, the benefits are solely for use on the child.

How about limiting who the law applies to/who gets protection? Make some people not protected by the law at all. It has the extra benefit that people like murderers and rapist will be more likely to leave the beneficial members of society alone as well as they have a much safer target to go after.

Do you realize how much money we could save not having to pay police departments to investigate crimes against the parasites of society?

It isn't exactly sarcasm. While I personally find the entire suggestion horrible, there are many people who will support all the little things like removing welfare and putting in prison, but won't go the last mile. It shows that they are hypocritical in their hate. You on the other hand do not appear such. So I'm not sure if I should like you for consistency of dislike for what your consistency results in.

This might confuse you, but one of the things I'd do if I was ever in a position to would be to create a military-esque organization from a medical standpoint. Training, housing, equipment, etc is provided based on contract that you serve as a doctor or whatever position for a contract. Handle it just like the military, develop my own R&D branch, etc, and then provide free healthcare to all persons, all factions. It's free and we're a neutral party in any conflict until a faction attacks us, at which point they lose the privilege.

Now you're wondering why I would do that if I don't value human life.

Simple: It's a complex problem that I'd love the opportunity to solve. I don't actually care about the people benefiting from it, it's a challenge.

You mistake me for a member of the religious right. I have no problem with birth control. And that is quite a reach you took equating my desire for a more limited federal government to my despising children. Wrong!

Just because a person is of different race than white doesn't make it a racial issue. You accused the man 3 comments ago of racism and you had absolutely no backing for that comment. I don't care what ethnicity you are if you're making less than minimum wage you shouldn't have kids you can't provide for. Its not a racial issue its common sense.

Food stamps provide one with free food, absolutely free. Now that this food isn't free are these kids going to starve? No. There parents will just have to pay as much for food as everyone else, this gives them no incentive to stay in Alabama which could result in them leaving. That's the whole point of the legislation, to get rid of illegals.

I just cannot understand why certain groups just hate poor people so much...and the only thing hated more are poor immigrants or their poor children. Those who have struggled the most, who have experienced the most difficult, tend to be the ones with the most innovation, the most ideas, and the most gumption to act upon those ideas. Support for public services is not blind charity so much as realizing that support for public services provides benefits to the private sector. The beauty of a "capitalist" economy/society is supposed to be the ability to move up or down that rich/poor scale based solely upon one's willingness to think, act on ideas, and take risks, so why do we treat the poor as though that is all they can ever be yet when we need the public benefit we are the exception to the rule?

So what? If you give them food stamps you just provide incentive for more illegals to come here and have anchor babies. America doesn't need anymore illegals taking over our communities. You want to help Mexicans in need? Take your checkbook and go to Mexico; don't bring them here.

It's absurd that we even give even a cent of our tax dollars to non-citizens. They only destroy the prosperity of the communities they enter.

They still pay taxes on income and sales. They get the food to your plate, dipshit. That is if you eat any fruits and vegetables but, you sound like a true blue blood american. Only GMO BEEF!! Explains why your brain seems to be lacking vital nutrients.