Partial Transcript:"Sure. Um, so I was born in uh Karachi, Pakistan. But my family lived in Multan, Pakistan, which is uh in the Punjab province. Um, the reason I was born in Karachi is, culturally, um, when the first child is born, usually the moms travel to their parents’ home for delivery."

Partial Transcript:"As far as my dad goes, he influenced me in towards my career path. Um, you know education and, uh this is ‘I think you should do this’ kind of stuff, and I had inclinations—both me and my brother."

Partial Transcript:"So then I s—so then he s—you know they talked about it, ‘Why don’t you come here and start, you know, applying for residencies over here? You’re here already.’ And so what I tried to do at that time, you had to do the—what was called the ECFNG, which is like a f—uh it’s uh exam that you had to take it."

Partial Transcript:"So the language thing is very different—very, s—uh strange. We spoke Gujarati at home, with mom and dad and family. Because our Zoroastrian background came from India, all of us had immigrated from India, my dad was born in Bombay, and all that, so kind..."

Partial Transcript:"When I was in Pakistan. Not really, we felt that we were quite assimilated, because since we grew up, and I—we would wear, you know, in Multan we would especially you know wear long pants and always have a d—a veil. Um, and so..."

Partial Transcript:"And so with thirty days we had to decide what we wanted to do. And so we said, okay, let’s uhmm, kids encouraged, ‘Mom, get a new (?) practice, now we’re grown, we’re in high school, we don’t need to, you know.’ So we, uhmm, they were willing to get us our patient panel..."

Partial Transcript:"So the community, the diversity, the weather. And I work here. [laughs] Yeah. I think it’s the—it has really become a diverse place. Umm, I mean, I’ve always felt like the impression…people – especially I was talking to you about my aunt, that back in the 80s, when I got my first job in Pasadena."

Partial Transcript:"Oh. [laughs] I try not to be pessimistic. I think, umm, you know, umm, there was, umm, there was need for change… It’s changing… Uh… hopefully to be… for the better. I think there is still a lot of work to be done."

Thrity Desai was born in Karachi, Pakistan, but lived most of herlife in Multan, Pakistan. She attended medical school in Pakistan, and finishedher residency in the U.S. She lived in Los Angeles, Kansas, and Ann Arbor beforemoving the Pasadena, Texas to work for Cigna. Upon a restructuring of Cigna, sheopened up her own pediatric practice in North Houston.

Setting:

The interview was conducted at Thrity Desai’s home in the Springsuburb of Houston and required around an hour and twenty minutes. Dr. Desaiexplains elements of women’s education in Pakistan, transitioning to the U.S.,as well as demographic changes in her neighborhood in Houston. She alsodiscusses her perception of American healthcare.

Interviewers: Tara Patel is a rising fifth year at Rice University and has lived

in Houston most of her life. She is one of the HAAA summer interns, and ismajoring in history and economics.

Caroline Zhu is a rising Senior at Rice University originally from Beijing,

China. She is one of the HAAA summer interns, and is majoring in chemicalengineering. She is also a pre-medical student.

TP: And we’re interviewing her for the Houston Asian American Archive through

the Chao Center of Asian Studies. Would like to start out with just telling usabout your childhood, where you’re from?

TD: Sure. Um, so I was born in uh Karachi, Pakistan. But my family lived in

Multan, Pakistan, which is uh in the Punjab province. Um, the reason I was bornin Karachi is, culturally, um, when the first child is born, usually the momstravel to their parents’ home for delivery. And so my mother went to Karachi,which is about 700 miles away from where my dad was. I was the first child. And1:00my dad lived and worked and that was our home, was in Multan. And so, I was bornthere and stayed there for about two months. Typically, that was um the culturalthing; the infant stayed with the mother and the paternal family, usually thepaternal grandmother, and um they would take care of uh, the mom and, and thenewborn. And then, um, I think my dad came, um and we all went back to Multan.That’s where I grew up, I went to elementary school, um at a Catholic school,St. Mary’s Convent. [laughs]. That was a long time ago, and um, so the nunswere Italian. Um, some of them were local people that went to Italy, to be2:00trained, but most of them were Italian, European, uh, nuns. Uh I s—for a shortperiod of time, for about two years, um my family was transferred to a differenttown, which was about, oh, three to four hundred miles away from Multan, a smalltown called Sihwal... Montgomery. Sihwal--

TP: Could you spell it for us?

TD: S-I-H-W-A-L. And that name was changed to—it’s very interesting—so,

during the British empire, it was named Montgomery, after Lord Montgomery, butwhen Pakistan got its independence, they renamed it Sihwal. [whispering] Idon’t know what Sihwal means, I should know that. So we were there for aboutthree—two to three years. My dad was um, a builder, he was in constructionbusiness. And so, he had a project there, building a women’s college...Or was3:00it a men’s college, I can’t remember, I was like seven then. A college,let’s say. [laughs] And so, we were there. And fortunately, in that littletown, which is basically, it was a very small town, there was a convent too, sothat’s where I went to school for two-three years, w-while we were there. Andthen we moved back to Multan, and so most of my life I spent in Multan.

So I was the old, oldest of uh four children. I had a brother two years younger

than me, and a sister th-the third child was a sister who was eight yearsyounger than me, and the fourth sibling was a sister, who is fourteen yearsyounger to me. My mom was nineteen when she had me. Twenty actually; nineteenwhen she was pregnant, twenty. She had her twentieth birthday and I was born inAugust. Yeah [laughs]. So, she was kind of young. So that’s, um, I did my high4:00school. Um, we were from a very conservative family, a Zoroastrian family, so aminority in Pakistan. And uh, the town I lived in did not have many Zoroastrianfamilies, we were like about, maybe a total of thirty to forty people, with fivefamilies. And so, we were more socially assimilated with, all our friends wereMuslim girls. And um, like the Muslim families. I told you about my father, hewas i-in construction, he had his own construction company, and so he used to doprojects like buildings and build roads. And, my mom initially didn’t work5:00‘til I was fourteen. And then she, um, took over her aunt’s elementaryschool, so she was a t-teacher, basically, an administrator and a teacher. Soshe managed an elementary school. Uh...Mm, let’s see, you want to go intodetails about my mother, mother and father...[laughs]

TP: Whatever you’d like to talk about.

TD: Yeah, so um. Yeah, so she uh, you know, um as far as influence and-and

developing your um habits and values, and... I got a lot from my mother as faras the social graces, and h-how do her-her um her uh biggest, um, biggest, um6:00asset or whatever, you know, her biggest um, pearl was, she was veryphilanthropic person. She, um, you know th-those days in Pakistan we had, we hada lot of staff at home, um our cooks and our you know gardener, and the-hersecretary, and-and different—our staff at home. She basically educated all herkids. And, um, she-t-they would start at the elementary school, where um whereshe-at her school, finish the fifth grade, all of them into college, did highschool, college, and like 90% of them are all professionals, now, either bigaccountants, working in banks, you know. Um, so all became professionals out ofthe...you know, the service business into professionals. So that was very—and7:00she was very philanthropic as far as, you know, doing charity and feeding peopleand you know, taking care of the poor and all that.

As far as my dad goes, he influenced me in towards my career path. Um, you know

education and, uh this is ‘I think you should do this’ kind of stuff, and Ihad inclinations—both me and my brother. We were two years apart, and so wewere more, um, the parents were more um, I guess my mom wasn’t working toowhen I was younger, too, so um I had more of the nurturing direction, so,um...Yeah so my dad influenced me as far as my career choices went, andeducation. So then, um being from a conservative family, and—but I still8:00remember my dad telling me ‘Yes, you have to this, you know higher educationis always encouraged, and everything, but you can’t leave town, you have tojust go to school here,’ and so we did have a college, and we did have a medschool, so fortunately enough I, you know, finished my uh college and then wentto med school in the same town I grew up in.

TP: Which is Multan?

TD: Multan, yes,

TP: Okay.

TD: Multan, Pakistan.

TP: Could you give us the names of your schools?

TD: Sure, so, St. Mary’s Convent was, um, the elementary, middle, and high

school. And then Government Degree College was the college, and then NishtarMedical College was the medical school I went to...in Multan, all of them are in Multan.

TD: Uh...Actually, um...you know w-we, I-I, now looking back on it, I think it

was—it kind of gave us, uh direction and values. Um...when you talk aboutbeing guilty of any little thing that you do [laughs] if you don’t do itright. Uh so, i-it was, uh, uh besides the regular, uh curricular activities,there was a, um there was a lot of emphasis on, um for girls on things like, um,embroidery, and sewing, and, um so that was a long time ago. So, we did—wedidn’t do cooking classes, I don’t remember that. But uh, embroidery andsewing and we did—we did have arts classes. Um, and smaller, um classrooms.10:00And I think—I think the level of education was, um, really good, becauseeverybody had to do well, and you know we had to speak in class, and quitestrict uniform. Of course we had the uniform, that we had to wear a uniformcertain ways, certain parts had to be covered and all that kind of stuff, inhigh school. More important in high school, that kind of stuff. But, um, I thinkwe learned um, I-I think it was a, it was a good experience. Didn’t like it atthat time because the nuns were quite strict [laughs] in what you can and cannotdo. Then, college was fun. [laughs] And medici—medical school was hard. [laughs].

TP: Were you very close to your family growing up?

TD: Yes, yes, close to the family. My brother left, uh to go to college in a

11:00different town, because he wanted to do engineering so he went to Karachi. Wehad my mother’s entire family lived in Karachi, so there were moreZoroastrians in Karachi and Lahore; there were other towns. And so Multan was asmaller, smaller place. We didn’t have that much, um, we did have a community,but it was more my mom’s and dad’s friends, some Zoroastrian families, uhthat kind of stuff, so not...We’re identified more by where you lived versuswhat your cultural background was.

TP: What kind of things did you do for fun as a child?

TD: Oh my God! [laughs] Oh. Yeah, so we didn’t have television when I was in

school [laughs]. Middle school...so uh, I used to, um read, embroider, listen to12:00the radio. ‘Til the television came around. But then, t-television used to bealso very restricted, like only for three or four hours in the evenings, thatkind of stuff, so...watch certain programs. And, but um, you know hang out withfriends. Didn’t have much free time when I was in medical school, basicallydid your rotations and just kind of...five years were just dedi-designated todoing your studying, your rotation, and that kind of stuff. But we tookvacations, you know, travelled as a family. Travelled out of town during vacations.

And then, um, we have, uh, uh a, what we call the hill stations (?), themountains, in the summer. Summers are really—were really bad in-in Multan, it13:00was dry heat, and it would get really hot, and we’d be off for two-two monthsand we would go to Murree, Nathia Gully, those are the hill, um, the mountaintowns, th-those were cooler.

TP: Okay…Could you describe your college experience in more detail for us?

TD: Yeah, so college was fun, the two years. Uh, had to work hard to, you know

get good grades to get into medical school, and so, um, the first, uh first year14:00was-was fun. Lots of uh, you know, spending time with friends. And I got togo...but our college experience is very different, used to be very different inthose days. I mean you didn’t go out too much, you just kind of did whateveryou had to. I stayed at home, I didn’t stay, um, in dorms or anything likethat, even through med school. And that’s unusual these days too, to do that.But—but basically, m-more interacting with your own age group kids and...and Idid play some sports, I never mentioned that. We had softball. Softball,basketball, um...we used to do field and track, once in a while we’d have ourlittle sports thing going on. So, physical activity, there was, you know, partof that in there, too.

TP: Did you play those growing up or did you first get into them in college?

TD: Yeah, premed. [CZ: Yeah, okay.] So there you have to do premed, um, if you

want to go into medical school. So, uh, you k-you-you there’s certain subjectsthat you have to do biology, and you have to do, um botany, and you have to dophysics, and you have to do so many hours of chemistry. So you can’t be a mathmajor and try and get into medical school. That would not work.

CZ: Oh was it... [TD: Yeah.] were you also four years in college?

TD: No, so how we have it is two year—premed is two years and then five years

of medical school.

CZ: Okay.

TD: So it’s a total of six [sic] years instead of eight that people do here.

CZ: So did you plan to come to the U.S. during, uh when you were in college?

TD: Probably uh...thought about it, um not particularly U.S. because we didn’t

16:00have pos-post graduate classes uh-uh there for specializations. Um, Pakistan wasnot—so it got its independence in ‘47, I graduated in ’79, ’78, so itwas a new, you know new country and stuff like that. It didn’t havepost-graduate education there. So, um everybody went overseas, uh mostly toEngland to do post-graduate studies, if you wanted to specialize, become adermatologist, or a pediatrician, or surgeon...Mostly people went overseas, andso, um, I did plan—I wasn’t sure where—but it would be England, usuallypeople would go to England or— or Ireland to get their post graduate, becausethe method of treatment, since this was a British colony, was more related tothe English tr—and the European teaching systems over there, so...I did haveplans, I wasn’t sure where I was gonna [laughs] end up. And so yeah, I17:00finished medical school, um, and we had to all do a rotation, um the internshipwas mandatory before you could get your certificate, so you had the five yearsof college, then the one year. Somehow I think it was shortage of doctors orsomething like that at that time, I can’t remember why we had to do a year of,um, internship. Either you do straight or you do a rotating internship. So Iended up doing six months of internal medicine, six months of OB/GYN. I thoughtI wanted to be an OB/GYN [All: [laughs]]. I was younger then. So we had to doall of that.

And then after that, what had happened is we had—um my brother was in a bad

accident. Um, when I was in my final year of medical school. And he had, um, itwas motorcycle accident, lost a-a-a portion of his, um bone in his leg and, um,they had fixed him up and all that, but they were still um did some grafting18:00[inaudible], still gap in there. So basically he had to come to the U.S. uh forevaluation treatment and then also he got admission into an engineering schoolhere, in Ohio.

And um my uncle and my aunt—my uncle’s family lives in Los Angeles and they

were visiting and he said—last—a-a year before my brother came here, theywere, uh, they came to Karachi to visit and said, ‘Okay, you know, you needto, you know come to the United States, we’ll help you with your treatment,get you admission to medical school, so—’ uh not medical school, he wasan—he was in engineering. So he, um, got in and he came in a year before Idid, and so he was doing his classes and during his vacation time he got himselfevaluated and they were going to do a bone stimulator on him. Um, put a cast onhim and do a bone stimulator, see if the—the— his gap would close down, so19:00that was all in LA. And so, we, you know, write to each other, call once in awhile, and so he was going to be in a cast for about eight weeks or so,depending on you know how the treatment went. And so I was talking to my uncleand aunt, and they said, ‘Why don’t you come over too?’ And I was justfinishing up my, um, my internship. And so, so then I decided to come, andvisit. So, me and my brother were living at my uncle’s house for a while, inLos Angeles.

TP: Was this a maternal or a paternal uncle?

TD: My maternal uncle.

TP: When did they come to the U.S.?

TD: Oh god. Long, long, long, long time ago. I’m not even sure. He was in—so

he was a ship captain. Um stationed—so started out in Pakistan, moved to theU.K., and he used to bring his ship down to the LA port, that’s where he met20:00my aunt. They went on a blind date [TP: [laughs]], she told me all about it. Ilived with them for about six to eight months, and y-they were a big influencein, you know, kind of getting uh me with the, uh, accustomed to the American wayand all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, so they got—so they lived in Englandfor...both their kids were born there, and, uh they moved back ho—I think backin the—they moved to LA in the—I think it was probably, oh...Late sixties orearly seventies. So he’s been living in Los Angeles since then.

So then I s—so then he s—you know they talked about it, ‘Why don’t you

come here and start, you know, applying for residencies over here? You’re here21:00already.’ And so what I tried to do at that time, you had to do the—what wascalled the ECFNG, which is like a f—uh it’s uh exam that you had to take it.Part of it was English proficiency test, and then, uh, your medical knowledgetest, to be able to, um, apply for residencies in the United States. And so, um,I was there so I thought I might as well just take the test, and so I preparedfor it a little bit, and you know got some books, got some, um, informationonline, studied for it, and took the test, and passed! [laughs] So then I said,‘Okay well, we can apply for residencies.’ Um, then I was um, I met my umhusband. He was from a different town, but our parents knew each other. Samecommunity, Zoroastrian and all that kind of stuff. And so we were, you know,22:00dating off and on, ‘what do we do?’ Um...So, um, once we decided we wereserious, um, I had taken the test. I, uh, took up a residency in, um, Kansas inpathology, and did a year of residency, then we g—went back to Pakistan, gotmarried. And then came back, decided I did not like pathology after six months,I—I did pathology in—in Kansas, and I—thought, no this is not for me.Well, when we were dating I thought, ‘Oh this will be a nice specialty,’ youknow not too much call-after hours, and all that kind of stuff, it wasn’t forme. Then I got, um, uh, residency in pediatrics, in Michigan. That was ineighty...what was it...eighty-two to eighty-three I was doing pathology...three,four, five...what was it…three to four to five to six, yeah. So ‘83 to ‘8623:00I was in, um, in Michigan, in Ann Arbor.

TP: Did you started—did you start dating your husband after you’d already

begin the process to come to the U.S., or before that?

TD: No, no, after I was here in U.S.

TP: Okay.

TD: Yeah.

TP: Now going back um, did you speak English growing up as a child?

TD: Did, yes, at school.

TP: Okay.

TD: So the language thing is very different—very, s—uh strange. We spoke

Gujarati at home, with mom and dad and family. Because our Zoroastrianbackground came from India, all of us had immigrated from India, my dad was bornin Bombay, and all that, so kind of that language carried with you at home. Withthe staff and friends, we spoke Urdu, or Punjabi, because that was the local24:00language of the state that you stayed in. So, um, and then um at school, becauseit was a convent, we spoke English. And our medium of instruction was inEnglish, so that helped a lot, to do the, you know our—our, because I knowsome people that come from Greece and other places, Italy, and France, and theyhave to [laughs] they learn French, and then they have to, you know, uh, kind oflearn to translate all that.

TP: Do you still speak all four of those languages?

TD: Um, I do, um Urdu, Gujarati yes, we still speak Gujarati at home. And yes, I

do speak Urdu. Punjabi has kind of gotten a little rusty, but I can understandclearly. And then yes, I do speak English too. [laughs]

TP: Was it typical when you went to college for women to pursue higher education?

go. The s—what they call the admission criteria, the seats were limited. So,only so many female seats, so my, um, class ha—started off with four. Um,off—off of hundred-and-fifty admissions for that year, only four would bewomen. And so, a little uproaring and all that and I think they increased iteventually to like nine. So it was nine versus—out of a hundred and fifty. Ands-similarly, I think they had similar criteria in engineering colleges. This wasnot just in my—in my medical school, all medical schools had that. Like,six-to-seven, so about maybe five to ten percent of the class would be women.Ten percent is like a lot, so more like five to eight percent would be women.26:00

TP: Did you feel any cultural or social barrie—barriers as well?

TD: Uh, here or over—over there?

TP: When you were in Pakistan.

TD: When I was in Pakistan. Not really, we felt that we were quite assimilated,

because since we grew up, and I—we would wear, you know, in Multan we wouldespecially you know wear long pants and always have a d—a veil. Um, andso...but in Karachi when we went to visit my mom’s family, that’s ourZoroastrian heritage, we’d wear dresses and more the Western, um, clothes.But, uh, whenever we were home in Multan, always you know, dressed up like them,spoke like them, acted like them, you know. So, there was no um...especiallywith my mom running the school and all that, uh, you know people knew us, andrespected us, and we never felt like we were targeted or…27:00

CZ: So did you go directly to the U.S. after you left your hometown?

TD: Yes.

CZ: Okay.

TD: [laughs] I came directly to the U.S., yes, I—my father—he—[inaudible]

had— had told me a couple of times, it’s like, uh, h—he so that when Idecided to come here, um, I had...maybe as a young child travelled to India,hadn’t been out of the country. And then so— straight come—coming to U.S.,he was—he said ‘You know I got you all the documents, and let you go, butafter you went, I was just very upset. It’s like what did I do? [laughs] Whydid I let my daughter go?’ But I think it had to do because we had, you…myuncle was here, and all that, that kind of occurred (?). And my brother washere, too, before I came, so, little less scary, but still scary, huh?

TP: What was your first impression of the U.S. when you got here?

TD: Oh goodness. So, in the movies, we used to, uh…Pakistan had—so my

28:00impression of the U.S. was what movies I had watched on Hollywood movies. Mostof the movies that would come over there, had to be very conservative, soWesterns. [laughs] So, uh...I was…what was my first impression? I thinkculturally, I had, um—so when I was at home, um staying with my uncle andaunt, uh, things were okay obviously, you know that was family, I had to learncertain social things, and you know.

Um, but, I—I think I had a hard time adjusting during my first residency. When

I had to deal with people, um, you know, uh, some of the, um, students as—asa, as a resid—resident intern, we had to deal with medical students, too. Um,29:00some of the students sometimes would look at you funny if you, you know,didn’t know where the, um, where the lab was, or, nothing to do with yourmedical knowledge but to do with your social knowledge, or, um, didn’t know,you know, what—what the role of an R.N. was, or, um, who you—who do you callif you need a certain thing, and um. So I felt a little intimidated from, fromthe students as far as, um, I had a— a certain accent, too. I was like—Ithink how old was I when I came here, twenty-five? Twenty-six? Twenty-six. So, Istill had a, you know a little accent, so. But the, the—the, the professorswere very good. Most of my professors were, one guy—one guy was mean [All:[laughs]]. [Professor’s name] Oh my god, I still remember him. But most of myprofessors and teachers were, um, were really supportive, and—and—and really30:00good. But I did feel the first couple of years, it’s um… ‘What is she?’no, ‘Where is she from?’ You know, ‘Who’s this person, she doesn’tknow where the lab slips are.’ Or, um, things like that. And ‘She doesn’tknow how to call the lab or enter—order entries, or in the chart,’ and youknow that kind of stuff. So, but other than that, that kind of cleared out afterI finished my residency. Of course, in the work force it was just fine.

TP: What about outside of the residency? How was adjusting to just the greater

LA community?

TD: Uh, the greater LA community was fine, I didn’t go out too much, because I

started, you know, staying home with my brother, and then, um, trying to studyfor my exam. Uh, but, uh, the people I met were all my aunt’s friends, so, um,and I didn’t—my cousins were younger than me, so I didn’t interact much31:00with their friends, so they were mostly older people, um, that we interactedwith. And then during the residency, basically interacted with just the, uh,peers, and most of them were really good. I kind of drew towards more of—therewas one, um, Indian girl, um we didn’t have too many, um, foreign graduates inthe residency that I was in. Uh, so she was from, um, New York, and she became agood friend. She was married at that time, I was married, and he was going toschool, so we didn’t really have much free time, we just did our stuff andcame home and rested. Went to the movies once in a while, maybe once or twice ayear, didn’t have time to do anything but just kind of, do your residency andkeep up with his schooling, and that kind of…My brother lived in Ann Arbor,32:00too, so we had that interaction with him, and his friends. And most of ourfriends actually, were—were, um, were people that were going to college,and—or going to the university, and uh some of them were my brother’sfriends, some of them were Rohinton’s friends, so we just kind of socializedwith them.

TP: Sorry, just to clarify, how long were you in LA?

TD: So, th—that was about a year.

TP: Okay.

TD: A little less than a year.

CZ: And then you moved to Ann Arbor?

TD: So, no then to Kansas for a year…

CZ: Oh, okay.

TD: …and then from Kansas to Ann Arbor for three years. And then, and then, so

Rohinton was from Houston, so as soon as I finished my residency, he wanted tocome back to Houston. And I was like not familiar with the landscape here, andso, um, he graduated in December and he came in December. I finished my33:00residency in June, end of June, so I came here in July. And so, um, my first, umjob was with the, um, in the 80’s they had these clinics. Health plans had theclinics, so I started working for Cigna. Didn’t know the landscape, I went toTexas Children’s, interviewed there for a fellowship posi—position. Got intoactually a fellowship in ambulatory care, too, but I would have to go to schooland do some more studying, and p-h and stuff like that and I decided, ‘No,that’s enough schooling for me.’ [laughs] So, I took up a position with uh,with Cigna. Cigna had their clinics. And I worked in Pasadena, and my aunt fromLA called me and, this was in ‘86, and she said ‘No, you can’t work inPasadena, they’ll kill you over there.’ [All: [laughs]] But it was a goodexperience, everyone was very nice over there, too. I mean we had the Hispanicpopulation, and, and the redneck population, you know the blue collar. Everybody34:00was working in the refineries and stuff like that. And, um, so that was my firstjob, yeah, out—out of residency. Working for Cigna...health plan, and, um, Iwas in a—um in a group practice. And it worked out fine, because I did notknow the referral system, did not know the landscape of, you know, Houston,where all the little places were, what was a hospital to refer to, and that allthat kind of stuff, so. And so I worked—started working there, and I had myfirst child...um, yeah as I started my residency. I started my residency in‘86, and I had Cyrus in ‘87.

TP: In Houston?

TD: In Houston, yeah, St. Luke’s. Then I had my second child in eleven

months...in Houston. So that was nice, I got maternity leave. [laughs] Good I35:00didn’t start my own practice at that time, huh?

TP: How have your experiences compared in all the different cities you’ve

lived in here in the U.S.?

TD: So I’ve lived in Houston the longest. Um, didn’t really work in LA,

worked only a year in Kansas. I think I like Houston the best, because residencywas hard. [laughs] So I—I think it’s not apples to apples comparing it, butum, I think Houston is bet—obviously better than anywhere else. So we were inPasadena till ‘92 and then we moved to this part—North part of town.

TP: Why did you move?

TD: So, um—um my, so I had the two kids and then, um, my, um my parents came

36:00to help me with—when my son was born for a couple months, two-three months,they were there. And then Rohinton’s the only child from his parents, andthey, they were back in Pakistan. And they decided to, um move and come, y—youknow we all decided that, you know, they should come move and live with us. Andso, they immigrated and um they started living with us, so um, we were lookingfor, you know, a place to stay where we would be a little bit closer to thecommunity, um, closer to our friends. And then Cigna had offices all over town,so they had the southeast, and Pasadena, Northwest here, and, um, in thenorthwest part of town on Bammel. And then, um in the Medical Center. And thenthey had another one in Memorial. So I started looking at the Memorial one andthe Northwest one. So there was an opening in Northwest office, so I requested a37:00transfer. And, bigger homes, and, uh out in the country—this used to be allwooded land. Th—this is our second home from when we first moved over here.But it used to be all wooded, much prettier and… Um so we built a separateapartment for our in-laws, and—and we moved here in ‘92. Kids started, myson started elementary here, he went to school, finished his high school hereand, um, in Klein High. And then, so we’ve been here since ‘92, this part of town.

TP: So have you had two homes in Northwest Houston?

TD: Yes, this is—this is our second, yeah.

TP: Why did you change homes?

TD: Oh, goodness, long story. So, um, so our in-laws were living with us. Uh, my

father-in-law, um, after he moved here, um started having health issues, and hedeveloped dementia, and eventually, um, became really handicapped, and—and38:00passed in...’96? And so my mother-in-law was by herself, and then she livedwith us and she had some health issues, and she passed intwo-thousand...uh...three or four. And so, we weren’t using the, theirapartment, um, their separate apartment. And then we had, um, a challengingexperience with our family, too. My son, who had just graduated from Klein HighSchool, um got diagnosed with osteosarcoma, bone cancer, when he was freshman incollege. And so, he just started college at, uh, University of Houston. Um,probably, what, October? So he started in September, October he was diagnosed.And, um, so we went through his treatment for three years, and he passed in39:002009, and so, it was really hard to, you know, live over there. And we wereactually looking at homes when he was sick. We wanted two bedrooms downstairs,and we had looked at this neighborhood here, and all that kind of stuff. Andthen, um, after he passed, um, we decided the home was just too large. And um,it was hard for my daughter, too. They were close, they were like eleven monthsapart, both of them, you know that kind of stuff. So, then, yeah we moved hereabout four years ago. Three-to-four years ago.

CZ: So, going back a little, um how did you start forming a social circle here?

TD: So social circle in Houston was very different from when I grew up. So we

have a—we have the Zoroastrian community, a much larger community in Houston.40:00So people from India, and Pakistan, and some Iranian Zoroastrians are here too,and some from South Africa, different places. So uh—uh, the community was veryactive, so we kind of joined the Zoroastrian association and then, uh, becameactive. And have a place now, the center, and our library and all that kind ofstuff. Mmm so, the kids had Sunday school that they would go to. They have the,uh now—they had two groups when my kids were growing up. The, um, junior groupand the senior group. Now they have the—the younger ones, the middle, and thenthe s—and the youth group. So, the kids became more active, and they probablyhave a lot of, um, more knowledge of the religious and the cultural backgroundthan I ever did growing up. They tell me, ‘No, Mom it’s not like this. OurSunday school teacher told us this.’ And...and so yeah, my son was real active41:00in that, too. He was like their, president—their association thing, you know,that kind of stuff. And so….and that, you know, the community thing isimportant. That helped us a lot, thr— through his illness and everything else.So we have a nice, strong Zoroastrian community as far as, you know, socialsupport, and uh, also for education, and educating the kids, as far as, youknow, giving them information and all that kind of stuff, which I never didgrowing up [laughs] have much, information on that.

TP: When you are in other cities in the U.S., did you feel you missed having a

42:00so LA was just a year in, in, in um…Kansas, it was really strange. So my firstname is Thrity, so which is a very Zoroastrian, Persian name. So one of theprofessors in pathology recognized that, and he called me, and he said: ‘Areyou a Zoroastrian?’ and I said, ‘Yes.’ So then he said, ‘I know afamily’ So then there was another OBG/YN there [TP: [laughs]], who was anIranian Zoroastrian, and he introduced me to them. So—so for that first year,we had that one family, that, um, they invited us over for Nowruz [Iranian NewYear] and [phone rings in the background] they would invite us over if they werehaving any family things going on, ‘cause, you know, we were new in town, andall that kind of stuff. So, we had that one interaction there in Kansas. InMichigan, we did have—my brother knew some people that were not in Ann Arbor,but Flint, and, um, Windsor, um, you know, so drivable, like an hour’s drive,43:00Novi, and all those places would have, families, and they would somehow findeach other, and they found my brother-in-law, so they would invite us over when,um, things would happen, or graduations, birthday parties, and stuff like that.So we did have some interaction there too.

TP: Has raising your children in your cultural tradition been really important

to you?

TD: Umm, yes. It has been. I think I’ve been fortunate that we’ve had so

many people. We’ve had some cultural things. They are kind of mixture ofstuff. You know, they got their American ways of doing things, and, and um,something, you know, from going to the center and went to the Sunday school,they have some their cultural... uhmm, Zoroastrian values, too. Yes, it has been44:00important, yeah.

TP: What languages do you, did you teach them, growing up.

DT: Oh goodness. So yes, they used to speak really good Gujarati, because my

in-laws were here when they were growing up. But then they started going toschool, so in elementary school, they would still speak a little bit. Then inmiddle school and high school, they started… Brother and sister startedspeaking more in English. Now it’s turning around. My daughter is 26 now. Sheis trying to, um, get—they were very fluent in Gujarati, uhmm… They neverdid learn Urdu, because that was not, you know, spoken, uhmm, anywhere, but theywere very fluent in Gujarati ‘til they were like 5 or 6. Then as they startedschool, they started forgetting a little bit, a little bit. But my daughter’skind of trying to pick up again, the Gujarati, and she’s trying to pick upUrdu, too. We went to visit Pakistan. Not too long ago, so she’s picking…But she’s not fluent. She understands a little bit. But she understands very45:00well the Gujarati part. She speaks a little bit.

TP: What does your daughter do?

TD: She did her Master’s in child psychology. She’s working for me right

now. [TD and TP: [laughs]]

TD: Office manager. At my office. She’s trying to figure out what she wants to

do. She had a hard time after my son was, had passed.

TP: Yes.

TD: She went through big anxiety, depression. You know, it’s just hard. It was

hard for all of us. But she finished her Master’s. She was in a Master’s/PhDprogram. And so for the PhD she really wanted to do um alternative teachingmethods. And but for her paper, she had to join, and get funding from the schooldistrict, which is not really available right now. So I needed somebody at work,and so she’s helping me right now, [laughs] doing... She’s my officemanager. Eventually, I don’t know, she wants to have a school for um, to—um,for, um, for alternative learning methods, for kids that have learning disabilities.46:00

TP: So you have your own medical practice now.

TD: Yes, I do.

TP: What can you tell us about the journey to...

TD: Don’t do it. [laughs]

TP: [laughs] Okay.

TD: So um so I had worked for Cigna. I had my kids. And it was really nice,

because I got off. Maternity leave. We would have vacation time. Not to worryabout the administrative part. But then the health system started changing, andCigna, um, sold their practices. They didn’t think they wanted to be in thehealthcare delivery system in 2000—2000. They sold their practices toChristus, [TP: [coughs]] which is the St. Joseph’s Health Care System, theywould start having issues, so in 2002, they decided that they were wanting to…Not want to deal with the practices. And they were going to close down. Theygave us thirty days. [laughs]. That was another experience. Thirty days, it’s47:00like, okay you all can do whatever you want to, we're closing practices, we’llkeep the contract, we’ll pay you for two more months, we had a ninety daybuy-out thing.

And so with thirty days we had to decide what we wanted to do. And so we said,

okay, let’s uhmm, kids encouraged, ‘Mom, get a new (?) practice, now we’regrown, we’re in high school, we don’t need to, you know.’ So we, uhmm,they were willing to get us our patient panel that we had, so that would be thebest time to start off anything if you wanted to, because you have the patientpanel, you have… They would give us furniture on reduced rates, and all thatkind of stuff. We had people, our staff, would be unemployed too, that wouldwork with us, and so… We got a couple, I got a couple of staffs, looked aroundfor space, and started—decided to go in practice for myself [laughs]. And sowe leased a place, because nothing was gonna be ready in thirty days. We leaseda place by the hospital, Houston Northwest, for, um, like six weeks ‘til the48:00clinic that I’m in got ready. And then I moved down there. And so, um, Ipracticed by myself, it was very hard to start off with [laughs], ‘cause I hadno, well, I had some administrative ideas, but what was used for working forlarger organizations. So we had like a whole team of people that would take careof the building, the patient, um. You know, checking their insurances. You know,all and that kind of stuff, and… So we had to start doing it on our own, andthat was learning experience and so… But we’ve done okay. We’ve done okay.After one year, I got tired of staying at work till like 8, 8:30. The cleaningpeople would come around, and say, ‘Okay Dr. Desai you’re still here.’

TP: [laughs]

TD: You know, good paper charts, and… So then I hired a nurse practitioner,

year two. And then after year two, um, year three, I had hired another49:00physician, a partner, um, on. And then so now, we have uhmm, two physicians, twomid-levels, one other physician that’s on maternity right now, oh God, dealwith HR stuff. [laughs]. So uhmm, so we’re doing okay.

TP: So originally you were your only employee?

TD: I was my only employee and then one nurse, and one from the office. And then

my kids actually helped me, ‘cause one.. Your three people, one person callsand sick, you are down to two. So yeah, my kids would help me, they would comein and do the front. And uhmm, you know check in, and we have medical records,we didn’t have electronic records, at that time, they would file charts, pullcharts for the next day. You know, verifying insurance, you know, that kind ofstuff. So, so but then, eventually. That was for about the first 6 or 8 months.And then we got another employee, and then we got a mid-level, and once we got50:00the mid-level, we got more employees and…

TP: Do you still—still deal with most of the administrative stuff yourself?

TD: Yes. Oh man. That’s the hardest thing, being a physician, the

administrative stuff, I do not like. Because, uhmm, we had very minimal trainingin what to do for—used to be medical schools never taught you aboutadministrative stuff, and… Now they do touch on things. And residencies teachyou know, how to operate your practices and all that. But when I went through myresidency in my local school, there was nothing. I mean everybody else had totake care of that, all we have to do was see patients. And I did that for manyyears. But, now I have to do, my part. Yeah.

The type of population I see has changed too, which is, which is good, I mean.

We used to be— Cigna was only all private insurances, and all affluent,educated families. Now I do mostly Medicaid and public funded stuff, which isgood, it’s rewarding. I think this point, a little, in my life that’s more51:00what I need to do. So that has changed.

TP: Overall would you say that, opening your own practice was a good decision

TD: You basically, you know, for you to do, whatever you want to. But with that

comes all the responsibilities, also. A lot of responsibilities. But I have tolearn to deal with stress, so… which I am—as you get older, you justkinda… And plus, um, I think the smartest thing I did was to get more peoplein. A lot of times people were worried about, oh, how are we going to do this.Or how, you know, how—how is it gonna function, will I get along with thisperson, if I bring in a partner. And stuff like that, but… I think dividing up52:00stuff is, is helpful.

TP: You mentioned earlier, in your residency in the US, you had trouble

adjusting where things were. So, how does medical system differ in the US fromwhat you learned in Pakistan?

TD: It differs in logistics and how, uhmm, things were as far as, who draws the

blood, uhmmm, who comes to pick up the lab work, how were the labs done. How isthe imaging done… Uhmmm, most of the time, so here in the US, basically theresidents, when I did my residency, I had to do everything, except bathe thekids, I guess. Nurses did that. [laughs]. So where I was, there was a lot moreancillary staff doing all the, all those… We had to draw your own blood, we53:00had to do, you know. Make sure we checked all the labs, and… which therew—there we did too, but, uhmm, draw your own blood, make your own slips, youknow paste and, send them off, where they go and then you know, call in for areport, that kind of stuff.

TP: So you’re saying that, in Pakistan, there were more auxiliary…

TD: Ancillary—ancillary, yeah.

TP: Okay.

TD: More ancillary help. Plus the imaging and stuff like that, uhmm, we did have

uhmm, you, all you have to do is to telling your nurse that I want an x-ray.Uhmmm, you don’t have to write your own order, make sure it went, sometimesyou put your own gurney, you know, take your patient down, go down check yourX-ray, there we would call and ask the radiologist what the X-ray report was.But I think in—in a way, it’s good that you see your own X-rays and stufflike that because then you learn more. But I think the, I think the first year,54:00it’s a—you feel odd yourself. Trying to adjust, in terms of you know, thelanguage, what you saying, how you’re saying it, that kind of stuff. So uhmm,and then the impressions come on how you're behaving, uhmm, people judge you onhow you’re behaving, not what knowledge you have [laughs]. The first year,that was the first year, and then you rapidly learn of—what you say, what youdo. [laughs]. That kind of stuff.

CZ: Um so do you think you have ever experienced any discrimination in workplace?

TD: Uhmm, no, no.

CZ: And uh, um, did you decide to settle down in the US permanently when you

were doing your residency?

TD: Yes. So, so after I got married, that’s when we started, uhmm, yeah

55:00that’s when I had, you know, decided obviously Rohinton didn’t want to moveanywhere, go anywhere else. And choice was between staying in Michigan versuscoming over to Houston. And he really wanted to come back to Houston. I was morecomfortable in Michigan, my brother was there, and I had done my training there.I knew the system there a little bit. But I’m glad I came to Hou—Texas.[laughs]. Yeah, I don’t know if I would have enjoyed the cold weather.[laughs]. Now at this age, didn’t bother us then, I mean, we used to park ourcars outside, lived in apartments, and had to clean the windows of the snow, andall that, so we lived in rough weather.

TP: How do you spell your husband’s name?

TD: Rohinton. R-O-H-I-N-T-O-N.

TP: What does he do?

TD: So he worked for, uhmm, he’s retired now. He worked for the federal

government. And he was umm, in the Department of Treasury initially. And then56:00he, umm, was with the Terrorism Task Force after 9-11.

TP: Okay.

TD: And he worked there, until last year, he retired. 2012, so it’s been...

December 2012, yeah. So it’s been a little over a year.

CZ: So umm, did you mention that he’s also Zoroastrian?

TD: Yes.

CZ: Okay.

TD: Yeah.

CZ: And he’s originally from…

TD: He’s originally from Pakistan, yes. From a city named Lahore, which is

about 300 miles away from Multan. It’s the same province as Punjab.

TP: And you were introduced to him by your parents?

TD: So my—our parents knew each other, yes.

TP: You’ve mentioned that you like Houston. What do you like about Houston?

TD: So the community, the diversity, the weather. And I work here. [laughs]

57:00Yeah. I think it’s the—it has really become a diverse place. Umm, I mean,I’ve always felt like the impression…people – especially I was talking toyou about my aunt, that back in the 80s, when I got my first job in Pasadena.She was really worried about me. She said, ‘That’s where the KKK is,’then, ‘that’s where Gilley’s is. And they’re not going to… They’regoing to… It’s probably not a good choice.’ And I said, ‘No, I thinkwe’ll see how it goes.’ And I never did feel anything, I mean, we would,still, like I said, we call our workers, and everybody else, and were veryrespectful, never disrespectful towards, you know, umm towards me, or my staff,or anything like that. I don’t know if it had to do because I worked forsomebody, it wasn’t my private practice. Once in a while I would have issueswith the hospital physicians, and that was a totally different story. That was,that had to do with who I worked for, versus me myself. But I never felt like…58:00Anybody said, ‘This is Pakistani,’ or ‘I don’t want to go to her,’ oranything like that, no. But yeah, the diversity, the weather, and now we canfind anything in almost anything that— [laughs] here. The Indian community isso large. And you know. So I was never exposed to that in Pakistan. And sothat’s been… It's a learning process after I came here to know about theIndian culture too. How it is and… Even though my grandfather’s and greatgrandfather’s background is more from the United India. We didn’t have muchexposure to that stuff, and then the Zoroastrian culture itself, too. I’velearned a lot more after I’ve been here to, in Houston.59:00

TP: So your connection with Zoroastrianism has been stronger in Houston than it

I’ve learned more, more, you know, rituals and prayers we do over here. Andmore celebrations of events that I didn’t know existed. [laughs] So yes, thathas been—that has been a change. Yeah.

CZ: So how often do you go back to Pakistan?

TD: Oh not very often. My parents, so then Rohinton’s family basically lived

with us. And so he didn’t have anybody, like close siblings or parents, afterhis parents moved over here. Umm, I had my parents living in Pakistan. Umm, theybecame citizens, but they still kept their home there, after they retired. Butthey would come every year, and spend time, spend months and years even like two60:00or three years in a row one time here, and then between my, my brother andsister in Michigan. And so, we, um, had very few chances… We did take the kidstwice, and then, umm… So since I’ve moved here, I might have been back tothere maybe four or five times. Yeah they enjoyed, the kids enjoy when they goback there. We still have our… We still have the home that I grew up in. Mymom is eighty now, and she wants to sell it, and she’s just kind of going offon it. It’s like okay, leave it alone, let it be. [laughs]. So she’s byherself, my dad passed, in 2005. So my mom’s there by herself. But she comesand visits every year for few months.

TD: Yes it has. It was never like… And I don’t know, the first time I went

was… So the first time I went back was within a year to get married. Umm, butthen there was a large gap. And I found a change in, each time I go back I seechanges that kind of… It was not like that when we were growing up. It’svery different now.

CZ: What about Houston? Have you seen Houston changing these years since you

community has grown, that’s been a big change. When I first came here, umm, wewere umm, maybe in the hundreds? And now, I think it’s more than doubled. Thenumber of people, and how the community is. Ac- the activity levels hasincreased, umm, the participation has increased, the things that they’re62:00doing, umm, have, umm, have changed for the better. They are doing more and morestuff for kids, and for their youth, for umm, and for the elderly too. They haveumm, we have a… So when my in-laws were here, they didn't have any, umm,social activities for older people, senior group, or anything like that. Nowthey have, umm, activities for seniors, that is actually a senior group. Umm,you can be members of that, and they do things and… The more active seniorswill take them around, do things with them. So yeah, so change for the better. [laughs].

TP: Do you identify as a Houstonian?

TD: Yes I do.

TP: And do you still identify as a Pakistani as well?

TD: More so as Zoroastrian, and yes, as a Pakistani, too. So Houstonian

CZ: So what do you think of changes in medical system since you started working?

TD: Oh. [laughs] I try not to be pessimistic. I think, umm, you know, umm, there

was, umm, there was need for change… It’s changing… Uh… hopefully tobe… for the better. I think there is still a lot of work to be done. As far aswhere the money goes, and how the money is spent. Because it.. still, I mean,umm, I’ve seen it take a big turn. When I first joined the workforce umm, tostart practicing medicine, the big trend was, the insurance companies for64:00opening up offices and trying to provide medical care. Business people weretrying to provide medical care. And that doesn’t work. So it has to be, andthen, the doctors doing the business part, doesn’t work either, so that, thathas to be a good, you know. Good combination of both like the physicians tryingto help the business people to, to provide care. And that’s going to be a bigchallenge. I think the hospital care is the bigger challenge than the primarycare that we do right now. And specialty care. All that. It’s just, it’sjust so a lot of, lots of little things. Because it’s—the consumer, has tobe educated. What we have here, is, ‘I don’t want to pay, but I want the65:00best care’, and that is hard to connect. Yeah. Because there’s a lot ofinformation now. There’s a lot of care, there’s a lot of information,there’s a lot, um, of things available. And if you want, you know, A, B, andC, it costs a certain amount of money, and everybody can’t get that. Andthere’s a lot of entitlement, what we see visited is an entitlement towardsc-, towards the medical practice too. It’s almost like went to the grocerystore and saying, you know ‘give me the groceries, I will pay you when I can,or if I want to.’ Only the medical profession people can do that. Andthey’ll come to your office, expect care, and—not everybody, butthat’s—some mentality is right there. It’s like, umm, you go to amechanic, a car mechanic, and say ‘repair my car. I will pay you what I can,and when I can.’ Nobody does that. [laughs] No other profession does that. I66:00know it’s noble, when we, you know, do take care of people, that can’tprovide, but there’s a lot of abuse too. A lot of abuse. I mean people, that,that’s considered—medical care is considered entitlement. Doing your hair,getting your manicure, I will pay for that. But I would not pay for my child’s40-dollar visit. And that—that mentality’s still there, so you have to dealwith that sometimes.

But then there’re some poor people, that don’t know how to apply for

Medicaid, and all that kind of stuff. And so we guide them, in terms of how youcan access, care, what you do, how you figure paperwork out, and that kind ofstuff. But there’s, there’s both. So that has to be sorted out, in terms of,you know, people that can pay should pay um for care, people that cannot pay, I67:00guess obviously you have a moral responsibility to take care of them. And ummm,stop the wastage, there’s a lot of wastage in healthcare too.

TP: Do you think that entitlement mentality is unique to America, or did you see

something similar in Pakistan?

TD: I think it’s unique over here.

TP: Okay.

TD: Definitely it’s unique over here.

CZ: So umm, can you give us an example of how you solve this kind of problems in

your own practice?

TD: So for, so for the people that, sometimes, you know they genuinely cannot,

you know, afford health care, we, um, have information available, phone numbers,or even social workers that can help them access Medicaid, um you know, gethealth care, and, and beyond social security. It might take a while to get allof that done. Then there are some kids with disability, and ummm, parents are68:00overwhelmed, you know they might be working parents, have a little bit of money,but cannot obviously provide all of the stuff that the kids need. So we helpedwith that, as far as, what social agencies to apply for, what state agencies toapply for. So it becomes… That’s one of the things that, since I started myown practice, I spent more of uh, things that we do more often than I used towhen I worked for Cigna. It was a different situation, but, but we see a lot of,uh, you know people that need help, need care, some immigrant people, somedon’t qualify, and we deal with that, and you know, who’s qualifying,who’s not qualifying that kind of stuff.

TP: Do you get more first-hand experience with this now that you’re doing your

own practice?

TD: Yes. Most definitely, yeah most definitely. And I think our demographic has

changed too with the area too. I’ve seen the area change too. In the nor- all69:00this Bammel North-Houston towards the Beltway [8]. Uh, a lot of immigrant ethnicpopulation versus what it used to be in ‘92 when I first moved here. And this,umm, the more North you go, like The Woodlands, all of what was here has movedmore north. And, and umm, all of umm, all of towards the Beltway [8] and[Interstate] 45 um, has become more um, more of what um Southwest Houston,something like that.

TP: What has stopped you from following that migration toward The Woodlands?

TD: Oh my. I don’t know. I guess I, I guess I like what I’m doing. Umm,

Woodlands also is very saturated. And plus umm, I feel kind of comfortable, now70:00I’m kind of getting comfortable in the area here too. A lot of people from ourneighborhood actually did move to The Woodlands. A lot of my patients that Iused to see. All the Exxon employees, you know, oil company people, everybody iskinda move to The Woodlands. Anybody who’s—anybody has moved to TheWoodlands now. [laughs] But I—we stayed here, and uh. I think now I feel likethis is what I need to do. [Alarm rang in the background]. Woodlands issaturated too. Did we go over time?

TP: No. It was just my alarm.

TD: Okay.

TP: So despite the change in demographic of this neighborhood, would you still

say that you enjoy living here?

TD: Yes, I do. And I actually you know, sometimes I complain, but I enjoy what

I’m doing. I think this time in my life I need to do this, what I’m doing. Ithink I feel I make a difference, and I don’t need to, you know. I mean, I71:00have my good time, [laughs], when I was with Cigna. And now I need to be doing this.

CZ: So do you have any plan for the future?

TD: Plans for the future. I need to retire one of these days, but you know, the

ideal thing would be if I could continue working, um, as long as I can, at myterms, you know. And that would be… Part time, or whatever, so far my plansare to continue working. Continue doing what I’m doing.

TP: I wanna go way back. Umm, you described your family growing up as a

conservative family? Could you explain what that means?

TD: Oh. So we were not allowed to spend the night anywhere. Go out without

supervision. Go to only certain places. And uh…what else. Wear—dress in a72:00certain way. Umm, so all of those things, yeah.

TP: Did you take a similar approach when raising your children?

TD: Oh no. I was just ‘do whatever you want.’ No. [TP: [laughs]]. That was

very… That was my Mom that was the strict one, had the discipline going, foreverybody. And my Dad was the soft one, I’m more like my Dad. I was the softone. I didn’t… The kids were basically, you know. [laughs] I meanyou—structured them a little bit. But with me as we were raising them, I hadtheir grandparents too. Rohinton’s Mom and Dad were around since the kids werelittle, basically. And so… I don’t know, they were spoiled. We just kind oflove them a lot. [laughs] They are good kids.

TD: That’d be nice, huh? [laughs] That would be nice. But we’re open to

everything. Somebody good, that will take care of her. [laughs]

CZ: So now what do you do in your free time?

TD: What do I do in my free time? Hmmm, I love gardening now. I… That’s

something that I’ve developed slowly, you know, kinda keeps me calm. I doYoga. I have taken up a little bit of meditation, you know, when I get a chance.So umm, and then, read, a little bit, not too much.

TP: What would you like future generations to remember about your immigrant experience?

TD: Yeah, so if um, and we can phrase it in a different way if I have to do

something different. I would, um, for the future generation, so they have tokeep, keep an open mind. So the first thing I did when I first moved here was Iwanted to be all Americanized, and just kinda be just like everybody else, adoptall the little things. Um, you know, American way of life, and all that kind ofstuff, so I think it’s important that we realize our background, um, where wecome from, it’s important to um, keep, keep a contact, like a contact lifelinewith your parents, your grandparents, your, you know. Keep the good. Assimilatethe good, wherever you, you’re originally from, and pick out the good from the75:00new cultural things, and don’t blindly just follow. That I have to you know dothis and this and this, because this is popular. Because there is a lot of uh,in older cultures there’s a lot of things that are—that are good, that whenwe’re younger we don’t realize it. And as we age, we realize uh, the goodthings that are in old cultures. That we have to assimilate in everyday life.And maybe, um, you know help—help others understand that part too.

TP: And that’s not something you realized when you were first in America.

TD: Oh I was, I was just, all hot-shot. [laughs] Oh I used to tell my in-laws

sometimes, ‘No, you can’t do this.’ But so, you know, just kind oflistening to the parents too. And I had this experience of living with them, alot of people don’t have that experience. And I think that, that was important76:00and kind of shaped a few things in me too in terms of how, um you know, respectfor the parents, and how you go alone and keep your culture. Keep your—part ofyour culture. That’s important.

TP: As you know, this recording is going to go public for people to do research

and understand the Asian American experience in Houston. Is there anything youwould like to add toward that purpose?

TD: I don’t know. I think it’s a good thing. People y—basically all I

would say is try and, um, keep your culture, part of your culture alive, don’ttry and change too rapidly. And uh, you know, uh, with—with your children, to77:00try and have some, some part of your culture you know, some part of your culturein your children. And the sense of community is important. Because sense of yourcommunity is important. Where you come from, you know, where you belong to. Andthen not in the sense of isolating yourself. And not assimilating with everybodyelse. But keeping the sense of community, taking the good out of that, spreadingit, you know, passing it to other people, and learning from other cultures, Ithink that’s, that’s important.

CZ: Umm, could you give us some example about the good parts that you get from

your own culture?

TD: So the good parts, you know the, the, there are certain, you

know…respecting your parents, keeping um keeping an open mind to their78:00suggestions, some, you can’t follow everything with what they tell you to do.So keeping, keeping an open mind to their suggestions, and um, obviously respectfor um for people that are around you. Um, yeah the first thing, when I firstcame here, you know, it was, you were taught to be very humble, and then um,when I, first came here was more like, my aunt and everybody else was like‘you’re doing your CVs, you have to tell all your good points, you have totoot your own horn,’ and, you know that kind of stuff. That was kind ofstrange for me too… But in a way that, you know you have to do that, so as faras you… The good and the bad, the cultural thing, so you have to kinda balance79:00it out, as far as, yes you have to know about your good qualities, but at thesame token, you know, be humble too.

CZ: So um, overall what do you think of your decision to move to the US?

TD: I think it was a good one now I’m looking back. When I go, every time I go

back to Pakistan, what’s happening to that region. I think it was, it was, itwas the right decision to make, yeah. And since most of my families are herenow, so [laughs]. Yeah, so that was, yeah. It’s at that region’s doing that.But I think uh, sometimes I feel that, you know, I wished there was a way thatone could help, you know go back and help. Um that’s one of the few thingsthat I feel that we lack in. But there’s not enough opportunities to do that.And so you’d go out and help Honduras and South American countries, orsomewhere else, or India or somewhere. But it’s, it’s hard that—that’s80:00been a lot of challenges too, to wonder how can you go back and help, andchange, you know, people that are thinking, how the, it’s change for theworse, and why is that, why has that happened. And how is it that one could turnthings around a little bit. I have, don’t have answers to that. [laughs].That’s the hard part, yeah. And I think that might had this part about keepingyour contacts, and communication going. And see, when I first moved, we didn’thave emails. It was not, communicating was not, a big, uh, an easy thing. Thephone calls were harder to do, and all that. And so when you lose contact forthe first 5 or 6, 10 years, then it’s hard to build back up. But if you—ifone has contact and communicates, you know, thoughts and good ideas, or so81:00it’s not like, this is one society, and that is another culture, that thing,need to eliminate that barrier. So somehow, you know, keeping that alive. Idon’t know, maybe it’ll happen in the future. [laughs]

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