I represent the entire Guild on this matter! - The creepy wire-head guy from Lynch's version {even though he had his name taken off it} of Dune.

One of the reaccuring themes I've seen on most of the threads noting what UnderWorld 2nd should include is more info on the guilds and/or the guildless. Not to worry, we've been thinking about this a lot. There will be a great deal more information about the various guild's internal structures and outward responses, e.g. what exactly does the Bravo guild do if someone goes around getting into unsanctioned fights?

That said, I'm fairly curious what the lot of you want to know about the Guilds as that will help direct our efforts.

That said, I'm fairly curious what the lot of you want to know about the Guilds as that will help direct our efforts.

Must...have...gang wars!

None of this "namby-pamby underground Renn Faire" shit.

I want The Warriors, Gangs of New York, Big Trouble in Little China, West Side Story and Berry Gordy's The Last Dragon all rolled up into one. Two hundred freaks armed with baseball bats, motorcycle chains and meat cleavers...

Are the Guilds monolithic organisations (pseudo-corps?) which dominate the lives of all Underworlders (or try to), or just clubs to which certain professionals belong? If I am John Q Underworlder just trying to get by, what impact do they have on my life?

What sort of internal structure do they have? Is there internal dissent and conflict? Do they have a charter or mission statement? How do they regard and relate to each other? What other powers are superior to them? What other powers do they control? Do they have any Upworld interests? Do they ally with lords of Domains, or remain impartial?

Something I thought of was that the relationships between the various guilds aren't defined much or at all. Do Navigators think Taggers are a pain in the rear for potentially ruining landmarks and suchlike, or do they think they're cool for helping create new ones, making navigation more easy? Or do they dislike Taggers making navigation easier, as it cuts into their trade?

Something that I thought of - well, nicked shamelessly from Over the Edge Second Edition ;) - would be a chart listing the various guilds and a brief phrase describing their general relations opinions of the other guilds and themselves.

Quick sample:

[Read from left column towards the right, as in: "Artificers think other Artificers are inferior" and "Artificers think Bravo's are a necessary evil" and note that it's Guild Members general opinion, not the Guild's stance on the whole.]

Code:

[b]Artificers[/b] [b]Bravos[/b]

[b]Artificers[/b] Inferior Necessary Evil

[b]Bravos[/b] Largely Irrelevant Noble and Vital

Naturally this wouldn't be a replacement for more in-depth material on inter-relations between Guild members, but just a quick reference for use in a pinch.

Something I thought of was that the relationships between the various guilds aren't defined much or at all. Do Navigators think Taggers are a pain in the rear for potentially ruining landmarks and suchlike, or do they think they're cool for helping create new ones, making navigation more easy? Or do they dislike Taggers making navigation easier, as it cuts into their trade?

Isn't that like saying "firemen like doctors but not lawyers"? I mean, the Guilds are just professions.

Individual Guilds and intra-Guild politics...now that could be cool. Like the "Guild of Bloody Blades" and "The Street-Preacher Brother-Men" are wicked rivals but will work together to stave off the predatory and ruthless "Cunning Men of Lower Queens."

Isn't that like saying "firemen like doctors but not lawyers"? I mean, the Guilds are just professions.

Well naturally - everyone hates lawyers ;)

Quote from: Jared A. Sorensen

Individual Guilds and intra-Guild politics...now that could be cool. Like the "Guild of Bloody Blades" and "The Street-Preacher Brother-Men" are wicked rivals but will work together to stave off the predatory and ruthless "Cunning Men of Lower Queens."

I'd agree that factions, perhaps domain based [to a degree] within Guilds would help spice things up. Guilds as is seem pretty flat; not that they're a bad concept or unworkable, just that they seem to be one of the more generic parts of the setting. Changing the writeups to include the Guild overview, then 2-4 political or locational factions within each one would go a long way to rounding them out, I believe. Must do some more thinking on this...

I'd quite like to see some factionalisation of the guilds. Something like local chapters, splinter groups or similar, which can have a healthy rivallry/disregard for each other. Internal politics is always nice, and gives players/conductors something to springboard a plot off. The obvious one I suppose is schools of Bravo.

Something to make the guilds less like professions and more like social groups would also be good, maybe more idea of positions/titles or of events they hold.

I'd quite like to see some factionalisation of the guilds. Something like local chapters, splinter groups or similar, which can have a healthy rivallry/disregard for each other. Internal politics is always nice, and gives players/conductors something to springboard a plot off. The obvious one I suppose is schools of Bravo.

Matt

I could see other ones as well.

Just imagine the yearly "conference" some artificers and a few librarians have beneath Columbia University... rival schools with their pet theories and styles ("Jacob's Ladders!" "Steam Punk!" "JACOB'S LADDERS!" "STEAM PUNK!!!")

Sorry to be contrary but I'd like the importance of the guilds to be downplayed a little.

Historically guilds were able to gain dominance because only they knew the skills involved in their industry. I really can't believe that a guild can manage to keep a strangle hold on fighting, driving, painting stuff on walls, etc.

I'd like the options to be opened up more. Sure you can be a fighter but if you're a Bravo you get access to Bravo resources (healing, juicy contracts, backup if required). Maybe guilds could also teach sercets only to their members, only BRavos get to learn the 'secret art of butt whup' (to quote the Jackie Chan cartoon).

Historically guilds were able to gain dominance because only they knew the skills involved in their industry. I really can't believe that a guild can manage to keep a strangle hold on fighting, driving, painting stuff on walls, etc.

Actually, I can believe that. though I can beleive it much more for some guilds than others.

Artificers have highly specialized knowledge that takes a long time to learn. I'd think it would be very difficult for a non-artificer to attempt to compete with an artificer in creating salvage tech

Mendicants are specifically taught magical healing. Plus I'm sure they keep some of their more mundane secrets under wraps too. They would again have specialized knowledge, and nobody wants to tick off the healers.

Navigators can only maintain their monopoly three ways (i'll go in order of what I think effectiveness would be) First, control the skills for using some of the bigger transports (boats and stuff). Second, the book states that in larger settlements, they police major traffic to ensure its navigators. And third, I'd think it takes quite a lot of capital to get a boat or a private subway car, and the Guild would be one of the places to get that.

Taggers control their scouting by controlling their secret signs coding. Only taggers know what it is. (And i'm sure Taggers milk lords for money by requiring regular 'updates' on the signs, as signs would change periodically to keep it secret). Also, the ability to put magical effects into signs is not something to be shrugged at

Sappers control specialized knowledge of architecture / mining / radiance. In Underworld, I think these guys have the easiest monopoly to control.

Bravos currently have a legal control of legitimate violence. If you aren't a brova, and you get into a mess, you better be able to prove self-defense. Institutionalized Mercenaries works in my view of what Underworld is. Of course, there are gonna be people who have fighting as a skill who aren't bravos, but the bravos, as you said, will be better, and also, in areas with some kind of government, the bravos legal control will be a big deal.

Librarians are another one that are a little tougher to control. As a result, I'd imagine these guilders would eb very chummy with each other, trying to keep their own always more informed than mere gossip-mongers.

I agree 'stranglehold' is too strong of a term. Underworld just doesn't have a powerful and coherent enough state to maintain guild monopolies. I agree with someone who posted somewhere (yes, I'm Captain Vague) that some more info on playable guildless characters would be useful. With that being said, the guilds would have a lot of power, political and otherwise, to ensure that Underworld doesn't work directly off market forces.