Vice Admiral

I think we could see the start of a downward spiral for Starfleet with, in no order, First Contact and the direct attack of the Borg on Earth, the Cardassian - Federation conflict and the formation of the Marque inside Starfleet, the Dominion War that lead to a strong militarisation of Starfleet and the increased distrust of Romulans with Nemisis.

Espacialy the Dominion war that forced Starfleet to the edge of what they can do and still hold on to their ideals and often forced them to break them was basicly the nail in the coffin. With the high losses in ships, crew and most importend civilians and the attack an earth it seams to have sparked a lot of hate and distrust.

The result of that is, what I think, is what we see in Picard. People who experianced heaven on earth and then got slapped in the face with war. That must have been a very terrifing experiance. Going from an Utopian sociaty, that just wantes to explore and advance, to war and militarisation.
Or like Quark put it "As long as humans have a warm meal and Holosuits they are nice. Take that away and deprive them of sleep and even the Klingons will look tame compared to humans" or something like that.

As for Picard in general, I think he is "Don Quijote", fighting against the windmills or in other words. Pircard is the representation of the old ideals of Star Trek fighting against our current day ignorance and distrust.

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About Discovery. That series gives me a lot of trouble in my head.
I realy like most of the characters like Saru, Pike, Stamets or Tilly but then it all feels like its in the wrong timeline and section 31 is a joke and those klingons.
I mean I like the general idea of a "klingon unification war" to bring the houses together but it feels like that should have been a series on its own.
Anyone remembering Klingon Academy? Something like that.

Anyway I have very mixed feelings about Discovery as I would realy like to see more about the Crew, except Burnham who should be in prison anyway and put the ship in the right timeline ...

Rear Admiral

As for Picard in general, I think he is "Don Quijote", fighting against the windmills or in other words. Pircard is the representation of the old ideals of Star Trek fighting against our current day ignorance and distrust.

Picard is an underwritten character in a plot devoid of causality and consistency who mostly lacks agency, which is weird considering the entire show is named after him. Half of the time, he does not contribute to the story in any meaningful way.

In regards to representing old-school ideas, he does that only partially. He regularly flips between an attempt to capture the old humanistic approach to this character and an arrogant, entitled person who has no idea what he is doing but thinks he is write right the world is not.
His ethics are murky, because the writer's ethics are. For example, forcing your opinion about what is right onto others when they are unwilling is the most un-picard thing out there and yet, it happens all the time in this show, including from Picard.

Believe me, I would really like to love this show. But unfortunately, it is simply weak and misses the mark completely. It is full of really bad cliches and, just like Discovery, just quotes StarTrek and ponders to older ideas and values without ever embracing or understanding them. For example, look at this scene from TNG, in which a personal conflict arises. Quoting some of the comments below that video, I can’t imagine this being a scene from a modern television show. If done today, the tension between Warf and Data would persist throughout the season, and escalate to a physical confrontation... because ‘drama’. The best part of the scene is how Worf accepts the reprimand. He acknowledges his mistake and does not whine, make excuses, or blame somebody else. Modern StarTrek just fails entirely when it comes to the writing department, there is weirdly constructed drama everywhere, even if there is no logical way at all how this could have happened and if any sensible chain-of-events could lead to it. This is a writing aimed to check boxes on a requirements- and scene-list, not to tell a story.

Vice Admiral

Picard not haveing a lead role is part of how the universe sees him. An old relic of another time. His push against Starfleets will, to support the Romulans anyway and using his contacts in Starfleet to support his agenda and failing further increased that point of view.
The people of that time don't see Picard as a greate man but as the old man that allways thinks he is right.
Thats basicly why no one listens to him.

The other side and there I agree with you, is that he has lost a lot of his intellect and wits. There are sparks of the old Picard shining through, like when he talked about hope and there there should be a bright future. Its very sad to see that part of his character to beeing lost.
I don't know his age in the series but he acts like he has starteing demetia. I have seen that with old people and its kinda the same. Switching harshly in personality and beeing stuck in their views.
I hope they won't go that road but with the brain stuff mentioned in one of the first episodes I fear that there is something of that kind of explenation waiting for us.
In that regard I agree with you that this Picard is only partial the one we know from TNG. Still part of the reason that we dislike the "new" Picard comes also from us not likeing to see our loved characters age and espacialy age badly. Sadly a change in character is actualy something realistic you can see with old people so I don't completly dismiss him as "Picard would never do that" but try to see the man he has become.
Age and catastrophic events like him beeing thrown out of Starfleet and seeing everything he worked for betrayed can change people drasticly.

As for the writing in general. Here I agree with you that Discovery as well as Picard often lacks in the "cause and effect" department and that "drama", while haveing a high focus, isn't executed very well. You can have your drama and cause and effect but that would require a lot more planing, worked out details and characters. Here I blaim the short production times of series these days. Tune down the SFX department and give the budget and time to the writers. The entire "shows must look like AAA budget movies" takes away a lot of the money that could have been spend otherwise.
I think its comparable to AAA games these days. Lots of fancy graphics but most of them are quite shallow. Like they have forgotten to also put in the fun and gameplay.

On the cliche front, yes definitly an overuse but then we only have 10 episodes to tell the story instead of ~ 20-30 episodes to develop them properly.
Does it make it better to know that? More subliminal details would have been better but then your average joe might not catcht that ^_^

As for your example with Worf and Data, without seeing the scene I knew what it was, damn talk about makeing an impression with a simple conversation, that scene is greate. Funny point about it is that it shows the best of what humans could become between a Klingon and an Android.
A reason why this wouldn't happen on Picard is... its a civilian ship. Sure Ruffy, the Captain and Picard all served but now they are civilians and they act like it. Data and Worf where strictly talking on a professional level. Have you noticed that even when they talked about friendship it was still "Sir".

Still I agree that I have my doubts that we will see such nicely worked out scene that captures the sprit of TNG in Picard.

Overall I like Picard more then Discovery but both shows are still far away from TNG or DS9, the two shows I concider the best of Startrek.

Vice Admiral

Anyway finale has been aired and frankly...what a weak finale. When you build up drama you need a good payoff or it falls flat. So spoilers ahead.

There where so many things off. Not entirely wrong but they fellt of to me.

The football plan and Nareck showing up and they have a campfire scene while haveing a finaly power restored ship? They could just take the ship, fly low and blow the tower up with phasers.

Picards death was a joke. We and the actors know of the golem and still everyone is crying? Why?

The fleets standoff was boring AF. Just two ships, maybe 3 on each side, while more beliveable anyway, would have produced much more drama. Heck just Riker VS 3 Warbirds would have been a much more impressive thing then just two giant fleets of CTRL-C CTRL-V fleets.

Seven and Ruffy going lovebirds? Why, when did that happen?

So far most of the eps had one or two headscretchers that I could overlook because it was mostly unimportend stuff but a finaly should be smooth. Would this have been an middle section episode I would go with...well lets see whats next but so.

In the end Picard left me with a mixed bag of emotions. On the one hand I like Picard and Seven and also this new captain with his split personalty in form of the several holograms he has running around. I find that the most interesting idea of the entire show and a quite unique way of using hologram programms and a good contiuation of how the use of the old EMH could "evolve".

Still the series has its flaws. I hope that its like with most Star Trek series that the first season is rough and it gets better in season 2.

Rear Admiral

The quality of writing for all modern StarTrek post-2009 reboot is just bad. There was always good and bad stuff, as in every franchise, but the flaws of post-2009 StarTrek are so consistent across all its various iterations, I have given up. I have been waiting ten years now, honestly I liked my StarTrek better when it was dead , at least no one was breaking it at the time. All good things must come to an end...

Started to replay Bridge Commander yesterday will do Klingon Academy next. Need to continue my rewatch of Voyager soon. All good StarTrek.

Wont watch PIC S2 or Disc S3. If there will be indeed a Pike-show, I will give it a chance.

Vice Admiral

Pice actualy feelt like a Starfleet captain to me in Discovery. Sadly the story was still...strange.
While not so Starfleet like Lorka was actualy an interesting captain. The backstory of scientist and explorer becomming a wartime captain that has changed was interesting but then they made him a mirror captain and ruined it for me. I would rather had him be a kinda broken man that changed his view of the world then haveing them take the lazy route of saying "He is from the mirror univers so he is just a bad guy, done".

Also liked both actors of Pice and Lorka. They did the best with what was given I think.
As for the Pice show. I have by now very low aspectations as it will be the same writing team I think as on Discovery and Picard and still Kurtzman in charge.

What do you think about the Section-31 spinoff? I realy don't like the idea of a show around them. Haveing an organisation that was hidden from both, charactars in univers as well as the viewer, made them so interesting. Haveing all in the open with their own show.... don't know if that is a good idea but then CBS seams to be hellbend to milk the franchise like there is no tommorow.

Rear Admiral

Not much. Discovery Season 2 already proved that the writers understand jack-shit about what the Section 31 arc was about, in case you have not noticed it is basically framed as public knowledge in that show, Burnham even states that Section 31 is basically just a special intelligence division at some point.

Quoting one of my earlier posts, the writing of new Star Trek just quotes and ponders to older ideas and values without ever embracing or even understanding them. It is like a small child trying really really hard to impress a parent. For another example, the incredibly forced "Picard Maneuver" dialog scene in the PICS01E10 was exactly that. Entirely forced, pointless and out-of-context.

Rear Admiral

Vice Admiral

I think the general idea was that Section 31 was kinda like our todays secret service. We know they exist and we have a rough understanding of what they do but details...well that is mostly not made public until years or even decades later, for good reasons.

So I think they wanted to go with that kind of basic setup and tell the story of how Section 31 turned from Starfleets secret service into a rogue, independet organisation. Think of it as the origin story for Section 31.

While that could have been an interesting story, shoveing it into the allready weak and convoluted Discovery storyline was just a bad idea and then it was badly excecuted.

As for the "fan service" that many "reworked" "revisited" shows try to do...yes its mostly terrible excecuted. I like fanservice. I liked Riker and Diana, the roles where good and feelt like "Yah this are the two after they settled down, that is how I could imagne them".

The "Picard Manouver" think on the other and was realy forced. If she had said "Would the Pircard manouver work here?", also I would still wonder why a scientist about AI/Androids would know Starfleet tactics and a pretty uncommon one on top, it would still feel less forced then her comming up with the idea and then make this dump joke out of it.

This fanservice gone wrong is also why I highly dislike Star Wars 7+9 while I liked some ideas of 8. 7 was still fun, JJ mostly knows how to make fun scenes and there was some nice camera work but it was just a retelling of 4.
8, while haveing a terrible plot made one thing right for me, cutting of old stuff. Its where I started to like Kylo above all other characters. How much I would have loved to see him actualy become a leader, cutting of both Jedi and Sith mentality and create a new order.

From what was unofficial released it seamed that before JJ toke over that someone understood what Rian wanted to do and worked with that but then we got 9 from JJ and hell did that killed Star Wars for me.
Luckly there is still Rogue One, man I love that movie. So not all hope is lost that there still can be good Star Wars stories.... and hopefully Trek.