Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Do you even play UO? If you did, you might realize how asinine your response was.

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Really ?

Let's imagine then the scenarios shall we ?

There is a scripter scripting in those areas the fishing. The template is fit to fight the occasional spawn so not big deal for that.

But, here comes a fellow player that sees the scripter, realizes it is a scripter and drags more spawn that the scripter can handle. Scripter is dead and script is stopped.

Now, boat scenario.
Boat is safe in the middle of the water, no nasty spawn in the water. Player who finds scripter tries dragging spawn to the edge of the water to try get the scripter killed with ranged attacks but the scripter can self heal enough to withstand the attempt.
Player gets tired and leaves. Scripter keeps scripting a go go.

May I ask a question to the Stratics' Moderator, not the UO player ? Are posts with insults towards other posters considered as personal attacks ? If so, what type of wording used is considered an insult ? Are "some" insulting words tolerated to be used ? Which one ? Or do you have a zero tolerance policy as in regards to insulting words being used to try as much as possible maintain a discussion as civil and not be ignited by inappropriate words ? Thank you.

Stratics VeteranAlumniStratics Legend

Yes, posts with insults, name calling, are considered a personal attack. If we've missed any let us know we'll remove them.
We try to get them all, but we can't always read every single post that everyone writes.
Examples of a personal attack would be 'you are an idiot/moron/etc'.
You can always use the 'report post' button to alert us to an offensive post - that's the triangle with exclamation mark icon below the user's avatar. Using that icon generates an email to all moderators of the affected board.

Finding a balance between allowing somewhat heated debate and disagreement and stopping trolling and personal attack is a tightrope that's very, very difficult to walk.

Stratics VeteranAlumniStratics Legend

That's where walking that tightrope comes in. Are they insulting you? or just the comment that you made?
We all sometimes make comments that aren't totally sensible, possibly because we're not in full possession of the facts.
At which point does removing criticism of a user's comment become stifling the conversation?

popps, I can explain you the difference.
If someone says you are an idiot, it's a personal attack as it's directed to you as a person, what you are.
If someone says your post or your argument is idiotic, while it may be considered rude, it isn't a personal attack. It doesn't mean you are an idiot, it means that precise post was. It's about what you did.
The same way that if someone says for example that your drawing has errors of proportions, it's about what you did, it isn't against you.

Now that said if by saying "your post is idiotic", you want to imply that every post written will be idiotic, or that the message was so idiotic that it's impossible for the author to have a proper reflection, then that's a personal attack.

For example, your post about scripting going wild if rowboats would be allowed at those place astonished me by its stupid exaggeration. Not only it isn't allowed to lure mobs on players and two wrongs don't make a right, but you can safely bot fishing in the middle of the sea. Now that doesn't mean I consider all your posts like that, i think you're just wrong here.

Perhaps a change in tack is in order.
If you're perceiving that people are attacking you or your posts, consider a little self-analysis - If this is happening, why is it happening? Also, consider with each post, are people likely to use it as a reason?

Attacks on posters aren't kosher, but patterns usually have underlying causes.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

That's where walking that tightrope comes in. Are they insulting you? or just the comment that you made?
We all sometimes make comments that aren't totally sensible, possibly because we're not in full possession of the facts.
At which point does removing criticism of a user's comment become stifling the conversation?

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Well, criticism is certainly important as different people can sure have different opinions and see things from different angles but personally, I do not see much reasons to either insult anyone personally or for one's own ideas, even when different.

I may disagree with someone's ideas and opinions but that does not mean I should feel to have any right to insult them (the ideas....). This, if we think that freedom of opinions and ideas is important.

I sure can state that I disagree and even explain why, but insult someone else's different opinions ? I disagree.

Besides, when it comes to moderate a Forum like Stratics, allowing differing ideas and opinions to be insulted because the attack was not directed at an individual but to differing opinions and ideas "might" ignite the discussion and the argument derail.

So, for sake of better arguing the topics being discussed I would consider and handle insults to posters and their ideas/opinions, likewise, and protect them for freedom of expressing one's own rightfull point of view, even when not agreed with.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

popps, I can explain you the difference.
If someone says you are an idiot, it's a personal attack as it's directed to you as a person, what you are.
If someone says your post or your argument is idiotic, while it may be considered rude, it isn't a personal attack. It doesn't mean you are an idiot, it means that precise post was. It's about what you did.
The same way that if someone says for example that your drawing has errors of proportions, it's about what you did, it isn't against you.

Now that said if by saying "your post is idiotic", you want to imply that every post written will be idiotic, or that the message was so idiotic that it's impossible for the author to have a proper reflection, then that's a personal attack.

For example, your post about scripting going wild if rowboats would be allowed at those place astonished me by its stupid exaggeration. Not only it isn't allowed to lure mobs on players and two wrongs don't make a right, but you can safely bot fishing in the middle of the sea. Now that doesn't mean I consider all your posts like that, i think you're just wrong here.

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My reply to Petra right above pretty much summarizes my point of view on the issue whether insulting a poster and/or a differing opinion should be treated likewise or differently by moderators.

Perhaps a change in tack is in order.
If you're perceiving that people are attacking you or your posts, consider a little self-analysis - If this is happening, why is it happening? Also, consider with each post, are people likely to use it as a reason?

Attacks on posters aren't kosher, but patterns usually have underlying causes.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

With the exception of crab & lobster there are I believe limited resources involved with fishing.
Meaning "the fish seem to stop biting" will soon pop up so I expect scripting would be quite difficult. Though I can't say for sure because I don't know how to script.

Taming was changed some time ago to where a taming attempt will fail if the animal does not have a clear path to you so I don't think you can tame anything from a boat anymore but I have not tested this so it's just my own speculation.

So.. I would love to see rowboats usable in dungeons and other areas.

Especially in Ilsh. We won't ever get those !@#$ sea horses so a row boat would be a nice bone thrown our way.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Perhaps a change in tack is in order.
If you're perceiving that people are attacking you or your posts, consider a little self-analysis - If this is happening, why is it happening? Also, consider with each post, are people likely to use it as a reason?

Attacks on posters aren't kosher, but patterns usually have underlying causes.

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Bingo. Good insight.

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Let me see if I understood this well, is that perhaps that one should not maintain one's own different perspective and opinion on issues about the game other than the mainstream point of view ?

Really ?

Well, I beg to differ. I think any and all player should be rightfully entitled to have differing opinions about the game and express such differing opinions on the boards that deal about issues with such game.

Others may not agree and say that, explaining their dissent to such ideas and opinions, but I do not see why at any and all times the discussion cannot be kept as civil without either insults to any poster or their differing ideas and opinions.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

With the exception of crab & lobster there are I believe limited resources involved with fishing.
Meaning "the fish seem to stop biting" will soon pop up so I expect scripting would be quite difficult. Though I can't say for sure because I don't know how to script.

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Well, I do not script either but from what I heard or read that scripts are capable of (including answering to a GameMaster....), telling a tillerman to move a few tiles after the tile has "dried up" seems to me a trivial thing for scripters....

And infact, this happens already for fishing in the open sea which is scripted without problems. And tiles in the open sea dry up just like any other water tile does, including dungeons....

I am not against boats in the areas mentioned as well as in dungeons as long as scripting is dealt with firmly and done with for good in Ultima Online, as first.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Still it would be pretty sucky if scripters were all that stood between boats and no boats because I solemnly doubt they will ever be scraped off the skin of Sosaria.

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It is an understandable point of view but as I see it, allowing boats in those areas without first dealing with scripting would screw up the Developers' design.

I mean, the developers put a whole lot of effort into thinking, designing and coding "rare fish baits".

Rare fish happen to be, for the most part, in the areas mentioned.

Mark of Mythic in a post mentioned that as soon as players will realize how good rare fish magic pies are, and how their bonuses can stack with each other, they will see where the money is, as far as the changes to fishing go.

Now, if we allow "safe" scripting in those areas, we are basically allowing scripters to bypass the need for baits (they would just let scripts go 24/7 with a Legendary fisherman and rack in tons of rare fish). This would inflate the market with magic pies and effectively screw up the Developers' designs and plans.

Pretty much like it happened with mining and lumberjacking where resources locations had to be randomized because of scripters.

Scripting is a threat to the game, IMHO, and it makes good design of the game a whole lot more difficult and often screws up design.

The sooner scripting goes away, the MUCH better it will be for Ultima Online, IMHO.

Stratics Veteran

There is a scripter scripting in those areas the fishing. The template is fit to fight the occasional spawn so not big deal for that.

But, here comes a fellow player that sees the scripter, realizes it is a scripter and drags more spawn that the scripter can handle. Scripter is dead and script is stopped.

Now, boat scenario.
Boat is safe in the middle of the water, no nasty spawn in the water. Player who finds scripter tries dragging spawn to the edge of the water to try get the scripter killed with ranged attacks but the scripter can self heal enough to withstand the attempt.
Player gets tired and leaves. Scripter keeps scripting a go go.

No thanks.

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BIG NO-NO. Do not tell people to break UO rules or how to.
You do know that this is considering griefing and not allowed in UO and is banable.
1.You may not victimize, harass, threaten, or cause another player unwanted distress or discomfort, as determined by Support Staff.
5.You will not actively encourage other players to violate the Terms of Service or Rules of Conduct.
Using game mechanics to cause grief to others can also be seen as exploitation, and will be treated accordingly by game staff.

With the exception of crab & lobster there are I believe limited resources involved with fishing.
Meaning "the fish seem to stop biting" will soon pop up so I expect scripting would be quite difficult. Though I can't say for sure because I don't know how to script.

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Well, I do not script either but from what I heard or read that scripts are capable of (including answering to a GameMaster....), telling a tillerman to move a few tiles after the tile has "dried up" seems to me a trivial thing for scripters....

And infact, this happens already for fishing in the open sea which is scripted without problems. And tiles in the open sea dry up just like any other water tile does, including dungeons....

I am not against boats in the areas mentioned as well as in dungeons as long as scripting is dealt with firmly and done with for good in Ultima Online, as first.

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We are talking rowboats here and I have tried the tiller commands and unless my rowboat is bugged then the commands do not work. You have to manually control a rowboat.

Stratics VeteranAlumni

Popps, scripters can apparently be detected. So it's the responsibility of EAM to police their game around features they think are helpful to players. The possibility that a player might script shouldn't deter the devs from implementing something. After all, plenty of features to "deter scripting" didn't, they just made it harder for attended players.

As for the issue at hand, I'm on the fence really. It doesn't really appeal to me, but I'm sure it could be made to work in a way which was managable. But "it might be scripted" isn't enough, sorry. Scripters need to be caught and banned, rather than have the whole game built around their cheating backsides

Let me see if I understood this well, is that perhaps that one should not maintain one's own different perspective and opinion on issues about the game other than the mainstream point of view ?

Really ?

Well, I beg to differ. I think any and all player should be rightfully entitled to have differing opinions about the game and express such differing opinions on the boards that deal about issues with such game.

Others may not agree and say that, explaining their dissent to such ideas and opinions, but I do not see why at any and all times the discussion cannot be kept as civil without either insults to any poster or their differing ideas and opinions.

But that is merely my personal point of view.

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Popps, re-read over those posts where you were given some good advice in a very clear way. We all sometimes post in ways which attract flames and rows. On a forum there's a certain style of posting that gets good responses and some posters are constantly in rows and flame wars.

Example time...if someone always comes in posting aggressively and their threads all end up locked, with posters infracted because they took the bait. Firstly, the flamers are responsible for what they wrote, but the person who started the fight only had to word his post another way to avoid that fight starting. After it happening for a prolonged period to that one poster, as a moderator you could start to think "hmm, is this deliberate?" or expect that they ought to have adjusted their posting style to something less confrontation.

If an animal always reacts aggressively to your handling, you either continue the same tactics and get bitten daily or you think "hmm, what if I try this instead?" and work out a solution.

There is nothing wrong in having and expressing an opinion and nobody should feel that it's bad to speak up. First rule here is to show respect at all times. But HOW you deliver a message makes a huge difference to the reaction you'll get. Your posting style is your responsibility and a bad style causes a lot of mod work cleaning up the mess. If other posters are able to post consistently without being attacked, that's the style to emulate. If you are feeling like a flame/infraction magnet, then I'm sorry, you can make things better for yourself by following the advice mods are giving you. If you don't nothing with change and you'll be subjected to the wrath of the Uhallers.

I don't think it's fair on the mods here to expect them to do all the work policing posters who don't like your posting style. It's fairer if you meet them mid way instead and try to learn why things go bad and how you can make points better. I'm a good example of bad posting at times, but I don't blame others for taking a bite at me. I chastise myself first for making a poor argument or not softening my more direct posts that come over quite harsh.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

You do know that this is considering griefing and not allowed in UO and is banable.
1.You may not victimize, harass, threaten, or cause another player unwanted distress or discomfort, as determined by Support Staff.
5.You will not actively encourage other players to violate the Terms of Service or Rules of Conduct.
Using game mechanics to cause grief to others can also be seen as exploitation, and will be treated accordingly by game staff.

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That assumes, needs and requires that "a player" is on the other side.
Where there is a scripter there is an automated process requiring no player otherwise, there would be no scrpting if there was a player handlng the activity.

Hence, it is my understanding that whenever there is a scripter it would not go against any rule. Letting a scripter ruin the game is quite worse, IMHO.

And you are not suppose to tell how to exploite the game in any part.[

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I am merely voicing my concern about what allowing boats in those areas could cause if scripting is not dealt with, first.

We are talking rowboats here and I have tried the tiller commands and unless my rowboat is bugged then the commands do not work. You have to manually control a rowboat.

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Even if it was strictly limited to rowboats and no other boat, period, you think this would really stop scripters from moving the rowboat when the tile dries out ?

ReporterProfessionalWiki ModeratorStratics Veteran

The only reason I asked for this is because you only have so much shore line. I fish like mad. I fish for hours and hours and hours and hours, ask anyone. Ter Mur ticks me off because I want to Crab and can only Crab in deep water.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Scripters need to be caught and banned, rather than have the whole game built around their cheating backsides

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I am all for scripters being caught and banned but the thing is, that the years go by and I do not see the problem solved much. How long ago was that famous spreadsheet announced to exist ? Months and months ago.

By now, I would have imagined that a little at a time, a few every week, more every months by now all and any scripter would have been dealt with.

The problem is, that scripters usually use disposable accounts. Even if a scripting account is caught and banned another one pops up with different IP, different account info if not with gametime codes and blah blah.

The way to stop scripting is not running after scripters because this would be an endless hide and run game. The way to get rid of scripting is to make it not possible or, whenever the client detects a script running it shuts down after a minute.
Script runs ? UO shuts down. Fire up UO again and script ? Shuts down again.

Ultima Online must be made unplayable to those who script. That is the only way I can see the problem can be solved for good, not having to always look, find, ban scripters only to start again with their brand new scripting account.....

Since I do not see this happen, I have to conclude that, at least for the time being, scripting is not being eradicated from the game and, therefore, I cannot help thinking that any and all change to the game (the one proposed here included...) should deal with thinking how much it could be abused (scripting is a form of abusing the game mechanics, IMHO). If such abuse can screw up parts of the game (namely the rare fish baits design and the whole concept of rare fish magic pies...), then the change should NOT take place.

I happen to be convinced that no matter how great an addition could look, sound and feel to the game, the very first thing that a Developer should think, in depth, before even "thinking" to go ahead and design that addition, is how and to what extent it can be exploited by players in the game. And if it can reasonably be expected that it might be exploited and bring harm to the game or to aspects of the game then, unless it can be designed in a way that players are incapacitated to exploit it in any possible way, it should not be done.

Example time...if someone always comes in posting aggressively and their threads all end up locked, with posters infracted because they took the bait. Firstly, the flamers are responsible for what they wrote, but the person who started the fight only had to word his post another way to avoid that fight starting. After it happening for a prolonged period to that one poster, as a moderator you could start to think "hmm, is this deliberate?" or expect that they ought to have adjusted their posting style to something less confrontation.

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I do not know about others but personally I discuss issues and do my best to always discuss about them in a civil manner and respectfull of other posters and this, even when I am provocked by other aggressive posts. I tend always to keep my cold temper and never let myself be dragged into heated confrontations. I see them as pointless as my goal is to discuss the game and its aspects and not fight with others.
I tend to stick to the game and not derail.

If an animal always reacts aggressively to your handling, you either continue the same tactics and get bitten daily or you think "hmm, what if I try this instead?" and work out a solution.

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If I am convinced that an opinion I might have about the game is good, why should I change up my mind just to be treated more nicely by others ? I mean, if I get convinced by arguments then I may well change my mind but why on earth just change up my mind because I get insulted or yelled at ? I see no point.

I want to be convinced by logic and good argumentation not else..

Your posting style is your responsibility and a bad style causes a lot of mod work cleaning up the mess. If other posters are able to post consistently without being attacked, that's the style to emulate. If you are feeling like a flame/infraction magnet, then I'm sorry, you can make things better for yourself by following the advice mods are giving you. If you don't nothing with change and you'll be subjected to the wrath of the Uhallers.

I don't think it's fair on the mods here to expect them to do all the work policing posters who don't like your posting style. It's fairer if you meet them mid way instead and try to learn why things go bad and how you can make points better. I'm a good example of bad posting at times, but I don't blame others for taking a bite at me. I chastise myself first for making a poor argument or not softening my more direct posts that come over quite harsh.

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I am not sure whether I understand well what you are saying here.
I have my views and opinions about the game, whether wrong or right that they may be. I post from time to time them on the Forums to discuss them and see whether I can find counter arguments that can convince me more and see if I get to change my mind over different ideas, not merely because I am being treated harshly.

I would never ever want to watch my opinions and differing views about the game so as to have a better treatment on the boards. I'd rather be treated harshly but keep my freedom of opinion and differing views rather than feel with 2 feet in one shoe worried that if I post a differing view from mainstrean I will be yelled at.
Can't just the discussion be left as civil at all times even when reading views about the game we may disagree with ?

Is it really necessary to heat it up ?

I do not feel I am the one causing more work to the moderators, not when I keep my discussions as civil and watch my cold temper. It is others who heat them up, one way or the other, who cause that extra work. Rather than look at me, then, I think the moderators should look at them.

It just sounds inexplicable to me why on earth I should feel limited in my freedom to post my views and opinions in a civil manner only because there may be other dissenting with my views about the game who may want to then heat up the discussion one way or the other.

Stratics Veteran

That assumes, needs and requires that "a player" is on the other side.
Where there is a scripter there is an automated process requiring no player otherwise, there would be no scrpting if there was a player handlng the activity.

Hence, it is my understanding that whenever there is a scripter it would not go against any rule. Letting a scripter ruin the game is quite worse, IMHO.

I am merely voicing my concern about what allowing boats in those areas could cause if scripting is not dealt with, first.

Even if it was strictly limited to rowboats and no other boat, period, you think this would really stop scripters from moving the rowboat when the tile dries out ?

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You talk about breaking the rules all in the guise of "merely voicing my concerns". Only UO knows for sure if it is a scripter or not, but you think it is ok to break the rules because 2 wrongs make a right. You are as bad as a scripter, you are a griefer and you are telling everyone how to do it just to make a point.

I fish a lot and I have never seen 1 person scripting fishing but you assume there are scriptors doing this and you post your BABBLE ON style posts and get hurt when people say they are stupid and yet you continue to BABBLE ON.

Well IMHO your IMHO is wrong and this will not hurt UO. Waiting for yet another BABBLE ON.

Stratics Veteran

The only reason I asked for this is because you only have so much shore line. I fish like mad. I fish for hours and hours and hours and hours, ask anyone. Ter Mur ticks me off because I want to Crab and can only Crab in deep water.

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It is a good request and only one person here thinks it is wrong all in the guise of scripting.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

I fish a lot and I have never seen 1 person scripting fishing but you assume there are scriptors doing this and you post your BABBLE ON style posts and get hurt when people say they are stupid and yet you continue to BABBLE ON.

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You may not have met any but that does not mean there are not.....

As in regards to scripters, if Game Masters responded timely to players pages about suspected scripters and dealt with them in a timely manner there would be no need for players to do anything.

Unfortunately, we get told that scripting is a no-no but we keep seeing scripters around in the game, we page to ask support from Game Masters but we hardly receive any and if it comes, it is after quite long waits.

What should players do then, just live with scripting and accept this status quo which to some might be hardly tolerable ?

I already see players who, when they see someone scripting (assumed as scripting) they just move on because they feel helpless and that nothing can be done about it.

I think this as wrong because it might eventuallt bring the mentality that scripting is OK, it is fine which, at least to my opinion, is not. And since it still is deemed as not allowed, I think it also is the opinion of those who run the game.

I just wished more was done about it. Definately not design new additions that can be so easily scripted screwing up other designs of the game.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

The only reason I asked for this is because you only have so much shore line. I fish like mad. I fish for hours and hours and hours and hours, ask anyone. Ter Mur ticks me off because I want to Crab and can only Crab in deep water.

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It is a good request and only one person here thinks it is wrong all in the guise of scripting.

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Then we can well scrap the whole concept of fishmongers' orders and rare fish baits and let's prepare for an inflation of rare fish magic pies which I am not sure whether the Developers wanted them to be "that" common.....

Because if boats will be made possible for those areas and they will be scriptable, chances are that scripters will just script fishing for rare fish in those areas 24/7 and forget about the need for rare fish baits....

How many examples shall I bring up of items that were intended by design to be not that common but that scripting made way, but way more common that it was wanted by the designers ?

Have we already forgotten how ore and wood types had to be made random in their location because of scripters making way too many of them available and that screwed up the Designers plans and design for several items made with those resources which they did not want to be that common ?

I did not say it was a bad idea, I said I'd like it too but NOT with scripting as it is.
First deal with the scripting issue and then let boats go to the areas where rare fish can be found.

Stratics Veteran

As in regards to scripters, if Game Masters responded timely to players pages about suspected scripters and dealt with them in a timely manner there would be no need for players to do anything.

Unfortunately, we get told that scripting is a no-no but we keep seeing scripters around in the game, we page to ask support from Game Masters but we hardly receive any and if it comes, it is after quite long waits.

What should players do then, just live with scripting and accept this status quo which to some might be hardly tolerable ?

I already see players who, when they see someone scripting (assumed as scripting) they just move on because they feel helpless and that nothing can be done about it.

I think this as wrong because it might eventuallt bring the mentality that scripting is OK, it is fine which, at least to my opinion, is not. And since it still is deemed as not allowed, I think it also is the opinion of those who run the game.

I just wished more was done about it. Definately not design new additions that can be so easily scripted screwing up other designs of the game.

Then we can well scrap the whole concept of fishmongers' orders and rare fish baits and let's prepare for an inflation of rare fish magic pies which I am not sure whether the Developers wanted them to be "that" common.....

Because if boats will be made possible for those areas and they will be scriptable, chances are that scripters will just script fishing for rare fish in those areas 24/7 and forget about the need for rare fish baits....

How many examples shall I bring up of items that were intended by design to be not that common but that scripting made way, but way more common that it was wanted by the designers ?

Have we already forgotten how ore and wood types had to be made random in their location because of scripters making way too many of them available and that screwed up the Designers plans and design for several items made with those resources which they did not want to be that common ?

I did not say it was a bad idea, I said I'd like it too but NOT with scripting as it is.
First deal with the scripting issue and then let boats go to the areas where rare fish can be found.

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You know dancing is scriptable.

I think the game should be "nothing to do. Absolutely nothing to do."

If the game was about nothing. Nothing could be scripted.

Of course those doing nothing might be away from computer. So that is unattended doing nothing.

OK, I'm not catching what point scripting has in opposing the concept of being able to use rowboats in dungeons.

The areas in dungeons I'm aware of that have water space sufficient to support rowboats have a pretty good presence of nasties to deal with. Primarily, Shame and Wind. Of course, I haven't been to Wind in years, but the water spot I used to deal with had 2 krakkens and a butt ton of gargoyles. Haven't been there since ropes aren't in demand much anymore. Levels 2, 3, and 5 (4 unless you don't count the Elder Gazers as a level) all have elementals and krakkens to deal with. Not so good for a scripter.

As far as insults to Popps goes, I doubt I've ever directly insulted him, but I have and I will continue to blast discussion points and conclusions until they are well founded observations through game play or not some drivvel because something was too easy or too hard or any other complaints which appear to be nothing more than self serving his interest.

OK, I'm not catching what point scripting has in opposing the concept of being able to use rowboats in dungeons.

The areas in dungeons I'm aware of that have water space sufficient to support rowboats have a pretty good presence of nasties to deal with. Primarily, Shame and Wind. Of course, I haven't been to Wind in years, but the water spot I used to deal with had 2 krakkens and a butt ton of gargoyles. Haven't been there since ropes aren't in demand much anymore. Levels 2, 3, and 5 (4 unless you don't count the Elder Gazers as a level) all have elementals and krakkens to deal with. Not so good for a scripter.

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There is a section in all dungeons Joe the scripter can use/access to fish forever and make unlimited fish pies and sell them for gold. The rowboat would give him and unfair advantage. (I dont agree)

Forget logic like this.

The rowboat has no storage.
The characture can only hold x amount of fish.
You cant recall of and on a rowboat (i think)

So a scripter would be stuck to having to manage fish weights and send all the stuff back to his box via BOS.

Or dispose of everything until a rare fish shows up.

Im not sure a row boat gives a scripter a distinct advantage worth worrying about. But it is true scripters might use it.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Just for the record, in none of my posts I mentioned anything about advantages to scripters (though the concern exists...). I mentioned that it would make 1. Rare Fish baits less needed and thus less necessary to do the fishmongers' quests which drop the baits and 2. Would allow to more easily and safely script 24/7 for rare fish which will allow to inflate the market with rare fish magic pies thus lowering their value and overall making them more available than perhaps what the Developers may have wanted.

Forget logic like this.

The rowboat has no storage.
The characture can only hold x amount of fish.
You cant recall of and on a rowboat (i think)

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I would imagine that for a script recalling somewhere to unload the scripted resources it would not be that big of a deal. Movements I imagine would be a tad harder but nonetheless, from seeing in the game scripters go about various places, I imagine it can be done to some extent. Some scripts, perhaps, can have extremely complicated movements.
This said, how hard would it be for a script to handle moving the boat to a certain shore location, recall to either house door steps or bank and unload the backpack contents and then recall back to land spot and board boat again to keep going with the fishing script ?
Not to mention that using a blue beetle could make the need to recall quite less frequent also...

Stratics VeteranAlumni

I am all for scripters being caught and banned but the thing is, that the years go by and I do not see the problem solved much. How long ago was that famous spreadsheet announced to exist ? Months and months ago.
.......

I happen to be convinced that no matter how great an addition could look, sound and feel to the game, the very first thing that a Developer should think, in depth, before even "thinking" to go ahead and design that addition, is how and to what extent it can be exploited by players in the game. And if it can reasonably be expected that it might be exploited and bring harm to the game or to aspects of the game then, unless it can be designed in a way that players are incapacitated to exploit it in any possible way, it should not be done.

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Popps, this is a thread about fishing and rowboats, not how to cure cheating To stay semi off topic for a mo, holding back on fun useful features in a game to supposedly prevent cheating ensures the game will never be that great for the players who don't cheat. If we went down the road of "ooh can't do that, someone might cheat!" I'd dump UO for a game where the owners tackle the problem of cheats and don't penalise the rest of us. There are other ways, but the problem here isn't what the devs do, it's the whole EAM attitude towards cheating. And at some point, you might have to accept it won't ever get better. Or quit. The GMs don't have to hunt anyone down, they have a spreadsheet from the detection software... it's simply a case of EAM deciding what to do and following through. But until they do, let's keep UO development rolling

I do not know about others but personally I discuss issues and do my best to always discuss about them in a civil manner and respectfull of other posters and this, even when I am provocked by other aggressive posts. I tend always to keep my cold temper and never let myself be dragged into heated confrontations. I see them as pointless as my goal is to discuss the game and its aspects and not fight with others.
I tend to stick to the game and not derail.

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It's not about you being aggressive Popps, nobody said you were. You don't have to be aggressive and rude to cause others to lose patience or get frustrated - especially when posters have seen how you post and respond in the past. If someone posts one way most of the time and is unpopular as a result, the less frequent "good" posts won't sway the opinions people have about them. It needs a consistent long term shift before opinions will improve about an unpopular poster. There are many "non aggressive" ways posters can annoy each other. Sarcasm, complaining, failing to accept we're wrong, expecting others to test or find info for us, or acting like we are the most special person on the forum. I'm not levelling this list at you Popps, so please don't take that as "Wenchy said I was....." They're simply examples of things which, when done repeatedly can ensure a poster is unpopular and often attacked by the Uhall crowd. It's not just about being nasty and rude on forums

If I am convinced that an opinion I might have about the game is good, why should I change up my mind just to be treated more nicely by others ? I mean, if I get convinced by arguments then I may well change my mind but why on earth just change up my mind because I get insulted or yelled at ? I see no point.

I want to be convinced by logic and good argumentation not else..

I am not sure whether I understand well what you are saying here.
I have my views and opinions about the game, whether wrong or right that they may be. I post from time to time them on the Forums to discuss them and see whether I can find counter arguments that can convince me more and see if I get to change my mind over different ideas, not merely because I am being treated harshly.

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Where did I say you should change your opinion? Nobody is saying you have to change the opinions you have. What we're saying is look at how others post and discuss and disagree with each other. Some always get into fights, others will end up where both sides agree to differ and the discussion might get a bit heated on occasion because some of us are passionate about UO. But, it doesn't get nasty. If someone respects and thinks well of you, they will be more open to what you have to say and argue respectfully. Don't change opinions, change how you present them. Look at the rest of your posts, it's not just opinions that make a poster popular or not. People form an impression about you from everything you post and the attitude they detect behind it. Which means it isn't easy to fix, but at least on forums you can pause before submitting posts. Making it somewhat easier than similar problems in RL.

I would never ever want to watch my opinions and differing views about the game so as to have a better treatment on the boards. I'd rather be treated harshly but keep my freedom of opinion and differing views rather than feel with 2 feet in one shoe worried that if I post a differing view from mainstrean I will be yelled at.
Can't just the discussion be left as civil at all times even when reading views about the game we may disagree with ?

Is it really necessary to heat it up ?

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Moderators can't make you the most popular guy on Uhall, Popps. You can continue to let the mods clean up threads when you get into trouble, or you can learn from threads which went badly and make things better for yourself and the mods. That's what I do! I don't think "oh Petra will have me covered" if I know I inflamed a discussion. I certainly don't expect that. If I mess a thread up the blame rests mostly on my feet. Rule breakers should earn infractions when they warrant them, but sometimes the responsibility rests a little bit on the OP's side too. Not always. Just sometimes

I do not feel I am the one causing more work to the moderators, not when I keep my discussions as civil and watch my cold temper. It is others who heat them up, one way or the other, who cause that extra work. Rather than look at me, then, I think the moderators should look at them.

It just sounds inexplicable to me why on earth I should feel limited in my freedom to post my views and opinions in a civil manner only because there may be other dissenting with my views about the game who may want to then heat up the discussion one way or the other.

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Moderators do look at others. We do take action to cover your back But if you were to line up all the users on Stratics forums, you'd see that some posters have a talent for making posts that open a can of worms. And you look at what they said and you see exactly why it headed south. Now, the mod team will do their best with whatever happens on the boards, but I hope I'm not speaking out of line in saying we would rather not hand out infractions and get into battles repeatedly. Especially as a result of just a few posters. It's not fun for mods - when folk are rude to you on the boards, imagine how they respond to one of us giving them points. I like my fellow mods, I don't want them to sort out battles if they could be prevented from starting in the first place. We're all volunteers, we all want to play the game and enjoy the forums too. Please, have respect for that enough to consider the advice we're trying to give you Again, it's not about restricting what you can say or the opinions you have. It's how things are said that makes the difference.

Just for the record, in none of my posts I mentioned anything about advantages to scripters (though the concern exists...). I mentioned that it would make 1. Rare Fish baits less needed and thus less necessary to do the fishmongers' quests which drop the baits and 2. Would allow to more easily and safely script 24/7 for rare fish which will allow to inflate the market with rare fish magic pies thus lowering their value and overall making them more available than perhaps what the Developers may have wanted.

I would imagine that for a script recalling somewhere to unload the scripted resources it would not be that big of a deal. Movements I imagine would be a tad harder but nonetheless, from seeing in the game scripters go about various places, I imagine it can be done to some extent. Some scripts, perhaps, can have extremely complicated movements.
This said, how hard would it be for a script to handle moving the boat to a certain shore location, recall to either house door steps or bank and unload the backpack contents and then recall back to land spot and board boat again to keep going with the fishing script ?
Not to mention that using a blue beetle could make the need to recall quite less frequent also...

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Popps
I think that is what you miss sometimes. You write a whole lot in the disquise of a logical argument but it ends up the same... unfair advantage by scripters is what you are saying.

In the above case you say this

Just for the record, in none of my posts I mentioned anything about advantages to scripters (though the concern exists...). I mentioned that it would make 1. Rare Fish baits less needed and thus less necessary to do the fishmongers' quests which drop the baits and 2. Would allow to more easily and safely script 24/7 for rare fish which will allow to inflate the market with rare fish magic pies thus lowering their value and overall making them more available than perhaps what the Developers may have wanted.

Safely script 24/7 for rare fish that will inflate the market with magic pies.
That is the unfair advantage.

Your disquise is putting under... perhaps thats not what the developers wanted for magic pies.

Stratics Veteran

Stratics Veteran

Taming and monster hunting was done from the boats and some 'clever' developer decided that it was 'exploitive'

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If I may add to that.
There was a time when there was no where to place and ships were the ONLY alternative to living beyond your bank boxs capacity. Ships were Everywhere.
Now,take a minute or two....
Imagine UO with all plots filled with houses AND an overflow effect with ships being placed everywhere to fill the void of item storage BEFORE Age of items patched in. That is how popular UO WAS.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Safely script 24/7 for rare fish that will inflate the market with magic pies.
That is the unfair advantage.

Your disquise is putting under... perhaps thats not what the developers wanted for magic pies.

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No matter how many times it happens, it always amazes me how the same one issue is seen differently by different people.

Inflating the market with magic pies, which you see somehow as an unfair advantage for scripters (which probably also is...) is not mainly what I meant (and infact I did not speak of monetary advantage).

I meant not the magic pies per se but what the Developers intended them to give to players : modifiers bonuses for 5 minutes per pie, stackable........

Having lots and lot and lots of such pies available means players capable of boosting their modifiers on and on and on, quite more than what the Developers perhaps intended when they designed them.... Otherwise, why make the pies obtainable from "rare" fish which are so rare that they need "baits" to have reasonable chances to be fished and these baits need time consuming fishing orders to be obtained ?

popps, just so you'll know, scripts can do 'almost' Everything you can do in game, but faster. Weight, HP, regs checks, move tile by tile, heal, cast spells if they meet a condition. GM detection. Even make you speak depending on what is said in your presence. Complete afk monster hunter, or miner, fisher, etc. So most times you don't stop 'em , just make them modify their script.
That's why most most ideas like that go nowhere in regards to scripters.

Stratics Veteran

Pretty much like it happened with mining and lumberjacking where resources locations had to be randomized because of scripters.

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Not to derail the thread further, (this is actually related to the main topic, mostly my point at the end) but when they did this, while it did slow down the rate at which the scripters can get colored ores, it also allowed them to script from ANYWHERE, instead of just the valorite/verite veins and frostwood trees. This made them incredibly hard to find and report/kill, before I just had a runebook to all the spots and took them out as they recalled in. (My house for years was by the caves near covetous in fel)

Now they script the little bumps out on islands, or in the middle of the forests, or cave floors in areas you wouldn't think to look, as they no longer need to stay by the big veins. This also made it much, much harder for someone legitimately getting the resources, before if you needed bloodwood you could just go to a bloodwood tree, now it could easily take 5 hours of randomly chopping trees to get just a small amount. (5 hours is nothing for a scripter, but a lot for a player)

My point being every time the devs have made a change to deter scripters, it's the players it ended up hurting more, and the scripters barely felt it at all, they just keep right on scripting.

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