(Original post by musabjilani)
Thanks. I also just went over some of the rest of this thread, and saw your posts regarding Hanafi jurisprudence. One thing I'd like to point out is that Imam Abu Hanifa was a flag bearer of the Rationalist school, and believed in using rational argument and the common good to create laws, rather than the specific laws passed by the Prophet (pbuh), since he believed that different circumstances and contexts called for different laws. If there is a lesson for modern Muslims in Imam Abu Hanifa's scholarship, that lesson lies not in his conclusions, but in his methods. The calcification of thought that has occurred in all schools has meant that instead of learning from Imam Abu Hanifa's dynamic outlook, Hanafis today take the school's laws as correct and permanent, quite antithetically to his own view that laws need to evolve as society evolves, from time to time and place to place, and their shapes and forms need to be determined by their specific contexts and circumstances.

I sincerely hope that similar views will prevail in Islam.

People who think like you are usually considered by quite a few other Muslims as "sellouts" who just want to "please the kuffar" (i.e. non-Muslims).

On the other hand, reform of Shariah should proceed mainly for the good of the Ummah itself, beyond the fact of whether it "pleases the kuffar" or not.

(Original post by mariachi)
I am not letting Christianity and Judaism off the hook. If you read e.g. Deuteronomy with modern eyes, you are appalled.

However, I am not concerned about theology : I am concerned about modern society. Deuteronomy is not implemented anymore, Shariah is.

Yes, the Quran does not prescribe the death penalty for apostasy, but Quran-only Muslims are a tiny minority.

As long as there still seems to be this consensus on the death penalty for apostasy, you cannot let Islam off the hook : international outrage is in fact (IMHO) the main factor which moves Governments in several majority-Muslim States to avoid as much as possible actually carrying out those death sentences.

Best

I agree with you we need to condemn and shun any society that implement such barbaric practice. We can only engage with them and convince them to scrap such babaric laws from the hadiths by rational thinking,diplomacy and subtilty. Not by criticising or insulting Islam that most muslims will feel it is part of their identity and will make them more defensive set fire with extremists.
The problem is not the existence of those text within islam, judaism and christianity have proved that they can be dealt with. It is the muslim society that they need to change and it is gonna be a long process. Insulting Islam will take us a huge step backwards as that will only inflame the situation bringing the clashes of civilisations forward with many islamophobes rejoicing with: 'I told so's. Is it what you really want?

(Original post by bkeevin)
I agree with you we need to condemn and shun any society that implement such barbaric practice. We can only engage with them and convince them to scrap such babaric laws from the hadiths by rational thinking,diplomacy and subtilty. Not by criticising or insulting Islam that most muslims will feel it is part of their identity and will make them more defensive set fire with extremists.
The problem is not the existence of those text within islam, judaism and christianity have proved that they can be dealt with. It is the muslim society that they need to change and it is gonna be a long process. Insulting Islam will take us a huge step backwards as that will only inflame the situation bringing the clashes of civilisations forward with many islamophobes rejoicing with: 'I told so's. Is it what you really want?

while overall I can agree with you, I feel some sort of intellectual revolt at never speaking out clearly what I think, and at having to use diplomatic language.

Also, I feel that our Muslim friends should not be left in any doubt about what 80% of humanity thinks about issues such as execution of apostates. Each time I discuss this I hear the same old feeble excuses (oh, this is only for treason, hey, there is no true Islamic State today, besides that, they are given time to repent etc ) and I realize that this is what they have been taught in their masjids and what they have read on dawah (religious propaganda) sites.

So, these feeble arguments should be treated as they deserve (without any leniency)

The real issue is that religion has to live and develop in its time, not to fossilize in the 7th century.

(Original post by Alexandra's Box)
The title makes them sound like a rare creature that lurks in caves and only emerges once a month to feed on moths.

I suppose, maybe because I don't see famous atheists who were once muslims on youtube, like ex christians such as edwardcurrent, nonstampcollector, darkmatter2525, etc. They don't participate on draw muhammed day, nor do they confidently make jokes about the former religion, like ex-christian atheists do. I've been hearing jokes and critism against christianity and they're starting to get old.

(Original post by Einheri)
If you've ever seen Muslims drinking then you're looking at people who don't believe in Islam/Allah. If you honestly believed that drinking would send you to Hell (Jahannam in Arabic) for eternity then you wouldn't do it (I certainly wouldn't if I believed that: Not burning forever in Hell > Alcohol). A lot of them are culturally Muslim i.e they say they're Muslim for cultural reasons rather than having an actual, genuine belief. This is very common with second and third generation Asians.

I know plenty of muslims, and this isn't entirely true at all! They believe in it, but they can't resist the temptations, it doesn't mean they don't believe at all.

On the contrary, "renegades", "apostates" etc are usually very interesting, intelligent persons and I admire quite a few of them

they have had the intellectual (and sometimes even physical) courage of examining critically the ideologies/religions in which they were educated, and did not give in to facility

In my experience, most apostates have actually a better knowledge of their former religion than the average "true believer", since they spent so much time on questions which tormented them, before breaking away

If you've started out living in a family who practises Islam correctly( and i am not talking about the crazies who scream jihad every second!) you will learn to love because its a religion that you can practise privately... those who convert maybe have not seen the right or the true verison of Islam..

Just my opinion.. personally i am a muslim and i think there is nothing wrong with it... It gives me something to lean on when i am going through hard times. It doesnt limit my life in any way but i can see if you have super strict parentsand live in a "we hate non-muslims" neighborhood then you might hate it, but its not meant to be that way.

Of course, these people can be accused of being impostors, just like the people who post their "conversion story" on the net

It is however interesting to read what people have to say.

they probably came from weak backgrounds as I have said. I have seen many videos of fake Muslim apostates too, who have been caught acting. And why are you on the internet targeting Muslims trying to portray a negative image, internet warrior eh?

(Original post by kr23)
they probably came from weak backgrounds as I have said. I have seen many videos of fake Muslim apostates too, who have been caught acting. And why are you on the internet targeting Muslims trying to portray a negative image, internet warrior eh?

"targeting Muslims" ? giving a "negative image" ?

this is a thread about Muslim apostates. What are we supposed to be talking about , in your view ? and why are you on the internet ?