Muslim protests racked the streets of Athens on Thursday, after allegations that a Greek policeman had ripped pages out of a Koran and stepped on it while in a Syrian-owned shop. Police officials said an investigation into the claims was underway.

From the article:

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In response, about 1,000 immigrants, many from Syria, Pakistan and Afghanistan, marched to central Omonia Square, smashing several shop windows and five cars, a police official said.

(...) "We were told by police we will be given the name of the policeman who did this so we can press charges," Elghandour said.

But, wait a minute. I keep hearing that the world is full of moderate Muslims who don't believe in this sort of thing. They stepped in, spoke out, and called for the nonsense to end, I'm sure. Didn't they?

Thousands of immigrants, many from Muslim countries, cross into Greece illegally every year seeking a better life in the West. Trapped in legal limbo, most have no jobs, live in squalid conditions and are often arrested for minor crimes.

Isn't illegal immigration a felony?

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On May 9, members of a rightist group attacked immigrants in Athens, sending at least three to hospital. Rights groups accuse predominantly Orthodox Christian Greece of not doing enough to protect immigrants.

Yes, no laws on the books about putting the Quran in a toilet (yes, Saudi Arabia et alia have such laws)

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

If the incident with the police and the Koran did happen, it is unfortunate. As I recall from what Fr. Daniel Byantoro said, Mohammedans view the Koran in much the same way as Christians view Jesus Christ, as the eternal word of God. In the Mohammedanistic case, the Koran is "incarnate" in a book form, so desecrating it would be like someone defiling the Holy Gifts to our sensibilities. I don't believe in religious provocations as a means of asserting power or authority or as a form of intimidation. It is one thing to make a statement in a Muslim country out of sincere conviction and desire to save and enlighten one's neighbor, a statement or action which may (inevitably) be construed as a malicious provocation even if utterly free from malice. It is quite another, in a supposedly Orthodox Christian country, to deliberately offend the religious sensibilities of non-Orthodox. Such actions, I believe, do a great disservice to our faith, and certainly do our souls little good and do little or nothing to bring people to the knowledge of the truth. The best way to contend with non-Orthodox faiths is to live an Orthodox life, to become saints. If some action is done by non-Orthodox against the faith, the state, or the peace of society, it ought to be stopped and justice ought to be done. But it is very bad form to provoke people. Maybe some were well disposed to Christianity and now think differently. Who wants to join a group of hypocritical bullies? We all have a duty to stand up for our faith, but we must do this in the Orthodox manner.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

It is quite another, in a supposedly Orthodox Christian country, to deliberately offend the religious sensibilities of non-Orthodox.

St Stephen of Perm chopped down the holy groves of the Komi. Other figures that the Church has glorified have torn down the temples of heathen countries at the same time they brought the word of God. Destroying the holy objects of non-Christians is completely licit.

If the incident with the police and the Koran did happen, it is unfortunate. As I recall from what Fr. Daniel Byantoro said, Mohammedans view the Koran in much the same way as Christians view Jesus Christ, as the eternal word of God. In the Mohammedanistic case, the Koran is "incarnate" in a book form, so desecrating it would be like someone defiling the Holy Gifts to our sensibilities.

And if someone did that, would you start rioting causing random damage on whoever's property has the misfortune of being nearest to you at the time? If the Mohammedans want to be offended, that's their right, they can be offended all they like, but it ends there, they don't get to riot. The problem isn't that they're offended because someone hurt their silly book, it may be stupid to be offended for such a trivial reason but to each their own; the problem is that the response is simply unacceptable. In civilized societies you have the right to offend people and you have the right to be offended; you don't have the right to take it any further than words.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 07:07:54 PM by GiC »

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

It is quite another, in a supposedly Orthodox Christian country, to deliberately offend the religious sensibilities of non-Orthodox.

St Stephen of Perm chopped down the holy groves of the Komi. Other figures that the Church has glorified have torn down the temples of heathen countries at the same time they brought the word of God. Destroying the holy objects of non-Christians is completely licit.

He was St. Stephen, not the police. Context, friend, context. For every example you give of destruction of non-Christian holy objects, I can give you a counter-example of the saints showing tolerance and respect.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

If the incident with the police and the Koran did happen, it is unfortunate. As I recall from what Fr. Daniel Byantoro said, Mohammedans view the Koran in much the same way as Christians view Jesus Christ, as the eternal word of God. In the Mohammedanistic case, the Koran is "incarnate" in a book form, so desecrating it would be like someone defiling the Holy Gifts to our sensibilities.

And if someone did that, would you start rioting causing random damage on whoever's property has the misfortune of being nearest to you at the time? If the Mohammedans want to be offended, that's their right, they can be offended all they like, but it ends there, they don't get to riot. The problem isn't that they're offended because someone hurt their silly book, it may be stupid to be offended for such a trivial reason but to each their own; the problem is that the response is simply unacceptable. In civilized societies you have the right to offend people and you have the right to be offended; you don't have the right to take it any further than words.

I have never condoned rioting for any purpose (with the possible exception of the imposition of heresy, there things get sticky). Rioters can expect to be shot for the preservation of public order. We don't do that in America anymore, preferring to clean up after a riot rather than a public relations debacle.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Andrew bro (good to see you!) I disagree. Right now in Iraq muslims murdered Assyrians using that American protestant in the news some time ago as an excuse to murder 60 people (2 more people yesterday) They know he has nothing to do with the Chaldean, Syriac Orthodox, or Assyrian Church of the East, but they just wanted an excuse to murder innocent people, pure and simple. They probably can't stand seeing all those Orthodox priests and want to subjugate Greeks again.

Well, I can't blame them. Honestly, if I were a simple Muslim with very strong convictions and if someone insulted something I see as holy, then I would react accordingly.

Given what I know about the Muslims and self serving gossip, I have grave doubts that it happened.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

They should have called in the military to show them what brute force looks like.

They were rioting on account of having been offended; near as I can tell, that's using organized violence to effect political change and last I checked, that's the definition of a revolution. They threw their chips down and committed an act of war against the Greek state, the Greeks should have responded accordingly.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 02:52:17 AM by GiC »

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Yes, Muslims murder innocent Christians, and yes they react inappropriately whenever they choose to instill a fear of insulting them and so slowly affect the host culture. But I think we need to temper our reactions, especially as Christians. Some of the comments posted here are clearly motivated by hatred. We mustn't become so extreme in our reaction that we forget that it is Islam that is the problem; the individuals blinded by it are loved by God and in need of salvation. Every time a muslim goes to hell Satan rejoices. Shouldn't we measure our words carefully?

They should have called in the military to show them what brute force looks like.

They were rioting on account of having been offended; near as I can tell, that's using organized violence to effect political change and last I checked, that's the definition of a revolution. They threw their chips down and committed an act of war against the Greek state, the Greeks should have responded accordingly.

IIRC the UN is trying to pass some declaration on religion. The result would be Muslim countries could continue to oppress non-muslims, and no doubt given Muslims in non-Muslim countries to be "offended."

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

It is quite another, in a supposedly Orthodox Christian country, to deliberately offend the religious sensibilities of non-Orthodox.

St Stephen of Perm chopped down the holy groves of the Komi. Other figures that the Church has glorified have torn down the temples of heathen countries at the same time they brought the word of God. Destroying the holy objects of non-Christians is completely licit.

This is precisely why I've stayed out of this discussion; would St. George be condemned now for walking into a pagan temple, praying to the Living God, and effecting the destruction of the idols? How about those who destroyed the pagan statues in order to turn the Parthenon into a Church?

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Yes, Muslims murder innocent Christians, and yes they react inappropriately whenever they choose to instill a fear of insulting them and so slowly affect the host culture. But I think we need to temper our reactions, especially as Christians. Some of the comments posted here are clearly motivated by hatred. We mustn't become so extreme in our reaction that we forget that it is Islam that is the problem; the individuals blinded by it are loved by God and in need of salvation. Every time a muslim goes to hell Satan rejoices. Shouldn't we measure our words carefully?

Motivated by hatred, or a desire for law and order? The Moslems' animalistic reaction was completely unhinged, destroying property that had nothing to do with the perceived crime. If they want to remain in their 12th century clan mentality, they should stay in the Middle East. This is not a hate-filled statement, it is fact.

In the West, where society is governed by laws and people effect change through rational means, we don't (or shouldn't) allow mobs to roam the streets every time they get upset. If a show of force is the only language they can understand, then we should tell them in no uncertain terms not to behave this way.

I imagine there are many saintly Christian emperors who would not have put up with this kind of thing. Indeed, when the Byzantine Empire was attacked by the Moslem hoardes, they fought them till the bitter end. I don't think it's unreasonable to say the same kind of threat is building today.

I hope you were not referring to me. I don't see how you can tell how I supposedly hate Muslims based upon one post. One of my co-workers, who I also consider to be a good friend, is an Iranian-born Muslim. We have talked about these issues and she is in the same boat as me. She lived in Iran during the Iranian Revolution and her family had to flee. There is nothing pretty about militant Islam and it has to be controlled by force.

BTW, I don't see any hatred of Muslims here? All that I see if some people saying that the riot should have been squashed by military force. Do you believe that they should have been left to do as they please? The problem is great in Great Britain, I'd hate the same thing to happen to Greece because people think we need to be more "tolerant" of their abuses.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 01:04:29 PM by Ionnis »

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"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.” -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope

Yes, Muslims murder innocent Christians, and yes they react inappropriately whenever they choose to instill a fear of insulting them and so slowly affect the host culture. But I think we need to temper our reactions, especially as Christians. Some of the comments posted here are clearly motivated by hatred. We mustn't become so extreme in our reaction that we forget that it is Islam that is the problem; the individuals blinded by it are loved by God and in need of salvation. Every time a muslim goes to hell Satan rejoices. Shouldn't we measure our words carefully?

I do hate Moslems...but there are several groups that I at least strongly dislike; in general, I don't advocate military action against any of them. So long as one lives peacefully and does not attempt to advance their ideology through violence against the people and the state, I'm happy to not only tolerate their existence, but defend their right to believe as they see fit. But these people rioted, they used violence to advance their ideology and to attempt to force a political response from the Greek government. They should have been treated like the militant revolutionaries they are, the riots should have been put down by force and the leaders rounded up and shot.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 03:07:19 PM by GiC »

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Andrew bro (good to see you!) I disagree. Right now in Iraq muslims murdered Assyrians using that American protestant in the news some time ago as an excuse to murder 60 people (2 more people yesterday) They know he has nothing to do with the Chaldean, Syriac Orthodox, or Assyrian Church of the East, but they just wanted an excuse to murder innocent people, pure and simple. They probably can't stand seeing all those Orthodox priests and want to subjugate Greeks again.

I never said that they were right or that I agree with them (quite to the contrary actually). I can just say, it is easy to see how they can get so worked up about it. Many of them come from a world where to insult Islam was considered a capital offense and to witness somebody insulting, then all they know is that punishment must be served. It is very terrible.

Quote

Given what I know about the Muslims and self serving gossip, I have grave doubts that it happened.

Andrew bro (good to see you!) I disagree. Right now in Iraq muslims murdered Assyrians using that American protestant in the news some time ago as an excuse to murder 60 people (2 more people yesterday) They know he has nothing to do with the Chaldean, Syriac Orthodox, or Assyrian Church of the East, but they just wanted an excuse to murder innocent people, pure and simple. They probably can't stand seeing all those Orthodox priests and want to subjugate Greeks again.

I never said that they were right or that I agree with them (quite to the contrary actually). I can just say, it is easy to see how they can get so worked up about it. Many of them come from a world where to insult Islam was considered a capital offense and to witness somebody insulting, then all they know is that punishment must be served. It is very terrible.

Given what I know about the Muslims and self serving gossip, I have grave doubts that it happened.

I wouldn't rule it out.

I want to see some facts.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth