I am no that guy who said he hates new safari, I actually was so excited for safari 4... the beta was amazing. It just had bugs and stuff but it was good. Then they took out the tabbed browsing and now it sucks... So I am going to keep using Chrome. Firefox is good and very robust but I feel like it slows down my old computers.

They are crapping on Safari because not only is Safari eating away more of IE it is also eating away part of FF market growth.

Add Chrome and the WebKit based browser market will surpass the Gecko market within 18 months.

True, but IMO FireFox's decision *not* to switch to WebKit is really a political one at this point and politics doesn't make good software.

If FireFox switched to WebKit they might even have a chance of beating them on speed and everyone would benefit. Also, if Microsoft is smart (I know, but it could happen), they are already testing a WebKit based version of MSIE.

In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...

Ideally it would be interesting to know just the Mac breakdown. I looked it up before posting but you seem to need a subscription for more detailed data - and the site I found does not appear to differentiate between Safari and its mobile version. My search was not thorough, though.

I am no that guy who said he hates new safari, I actually was so excited for safari 4... the beta was amazing. It just had bugs and stuff but it was good. Then they took out the tabbed browsing and now it sucks... So I am going to keep using Chrome. Firefox is good and very robust but I feel like it slows down my old computers.

Even if Firefox did everything else (marginally) better than Safari, I'd still use Safari 4 just because of coverflow browsing of history. I am *always* remembering that I saw something but can't remember where, and cover flow browsing of history saves my ass.

No question, that is the best feature of any browser for me. Once I got used to it, I can't bear to use any other browser.

Funny thing is, I never use Cover flow in iTunes or Finder, both of those have always seemed like useless gimmicks. But the history implementation is GENIUS IMO.

Well, first of all, Firefox 3.5 is out! Finally! Calls for a big celebration! I thought the Mozilla guys would drop the 3.5 all-together and go for 4 I downloaded it and yes, it is faster than Firefox 3.0.11. But, in my opinion, it's just not fast'er' than Safari 4. Agreed that the add-ons in Firefox are amazing. But, at the end of the day, it all comes down to personal preferences. I just need an add-on for ad-blocking and I get it with SafariBlock. So, I do not see any logical reason to switch to Firefox 3.5 as my primary browser. However, I am very keen on Google Chrome for Mac.
Last thought: When using Safari on my Mac, it 'feels' more like 'home'

True, but IMO FireFox's decision *not* to switch to WebKit is really a political one at this point and politics doesn't make good software.

They don't switch to WebKit because that means Mozilla would have to reimplement XUL unless they want to have 2 engines around, one for content and another one for UI. Obviously a work which a single developer can finish in mere weeks.

Wow, drill down for just Safari. About 92% are still using version 3.x instead of 4.x even if you shorten it to just the last month. Why aren't people upgrading, it comes automatically in Software Update, right?

I will be so happy when the day comes when we can stop using two browsers on our systems. Firefox is still needed for tax software and some govt. sites and even just now, I needed to revert to FF just to correctly print a return merchandise authorization at amazon.com. Safari split it oddly into two pages, cutting the barcode right in half. Firefox printed the 2 items perfectly, as expected.

Don't know, are there any test suits which completely tests the individual specifications?

WebKit has them. Unfortunately, MathML is still on the TODO portion of their test suite. I understand their reasoning--I'd make it a lower priority behind the rest that actually drives web proliferation. Running the test suites in the build process is interesting, but having that complete Table listing of support status for one to quickly reference would be welcome.

Gecko's had MathML for a while, even if incomplete.

Instead of just release notes of ACID 3 compliance it would be nice to have a true Table of Layout support managed at the W3C for the most current browsers.

I will be so happy when the day comes when we can stop using two browsers on our systems. Firefox is still needed for tax software and some govt. sites and even just now, I needed to revert to FF just to correctly print a return merchandise authorization at amazon.com. Safari split it oddly into two pages, cutting the barcode right in half. Firefox printed the 2 items perfectly, as expected.

After all these years, why aren't these issues resolved???

Most likely because Amazon's header tests for browser support doesn't include Safari. Neither do the merchant sites nor some government sites.

You can have the most up-to-date browser in the world, but if the dynamically developed app sites aren't keeping up they will break on these layout engines.

That is a web development issue. If you code everything inside an enclosing <table> then it waits. Of course that is the way everyone codes because it looks nice.

I'm not sure that "everyone" codes that way. Just looking at the top 20 sites on Alexa.com, almost nobody is using tables for layout anymore. The only exceptions seem to be Google, which seemingly hasn't changed its code in over a decade, and uses a table for its bottom navigation and Microsoft which uses a table for its navigation but not its overall layout, and Rapidshare. The rest are table-free. MySpace, Facebook, Wikipedia, Yahoo!, Bing, YouTube, etc... Other, notable table-free websites include ESPN, NY Times, and Expedia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone

I agree in theory but there are situations where tables are quite convenient. DIV with CSS is just another tool in the kit and not completely without issues either.

There were admittedly some hiccups with CSS and layout for a long time, but I think that we're at a point, in this mobile-friendly, search-engine oriented internet, that the former benefits of tables (mostly comfort and familiarity) are far outweighed by the benefits of markup that actually means something.

Firefox 3.5 still doesn't pass the ACID3 test. So those CSS quirks are still around. I hope Firefox 4.0 gets a 100/100. The javascript engine is way faster than Opera 9.4 and slightly slower than Safari. I used the webkit JS test suite.

Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof

Safari 4 is randomly crashing on me for some reason, but I'm sure that will be fixed soon. I loved "tabs on top" in the beta, and I like how Safari handles things like PDFs. I prefer Safari's design/layout, and until this new FF release, Safari's had a big advantage for users of shared computers due to private browsing (believe it or not, it actually does have uses besides porn!).

But Firefox still has two killer features that I miss when I use Safari. When you enter a password on a website, Firefox lets you wait until you see whether the password worked before deciding whether to save it. Safari makes you decide before the submission goes through. For those of us who have tons of different passwords, Firefox's way of doing it is much more helpful.

Also, Firefox's use of plugins allows for way more customization. In particular, I love the Flash-blocker plugins that let you disable all Flash running on certain pages and/or selectively activate only the ones you want. This lets you avoid annoying Flash ads or disable buggy/excessive Flash on pages that typically crash or slow Safari.

Firefox 3.5 still doesn't pass the ACID3 test. So those CSS quirks are still around.

Wrong, Firefox fails (with one exception) in SVG/SMIL related tests. [1] And you are attributing way too much credit to ACID 3 as it covers only a subset of the individual specifications. Read my former post where I manually tested Apple's own CSS3 namespaces tests where Firefox 3.5 actually fared better.

Quote:

I hope Firefox 4.0 gets a 100/100.

At least SVG fonts is being worked on, not sure about SMIL.

Quote:

and slightly slower than Safari.

Actually, Firefox JS engine is way slower than Nitro and V8. Run some other tests like Dromaeo and V8 test and then head over to Chrome Experiments for some "real world" examples.

When you enter a password on a website, Firefox lets you wait until you see whether the password worked before deciding whether to save it. Safari makes you decide before the submission goes through. For those of us who have tons of different passwords, Firefox's way of doing it is much more helpful.

Still boggles the mind that Apple didn't use this interface tweak. Google recognized the worth of non-modal dialogues instantly when designing Chrome's interface.

Quote:

I love the Flash-blocker plugins that let you disable all Flash running on certain pages and/or selectively activate only the ones you want.

I didn't post that, but I can elaborate. First, the new safari displaced the old innovative blue progress bar with that spinning ball that isn't in natural place for the eye to see. Worst, it didn't give an option to revert to the old way when plenty of people complained in the beta. Second, the tabs on top were touted as an innovative wonderful feature, but then Apple remove it again without giving users an option. Third, unlike every version of Safari before it: Apple removed the hidden preference files that let user decide for themselves. Fourth, in my experience, Apple's auto fill functions work the worst then on any other browser.

Don't get me wrong Safari 4 is fast. I even like some of the changes, like the ability to increase images along with the text. However, the final release is a let down from the beta, which I actually went back to using.

I like how Safari handles things like PDFs. I prefer Safari's design/layout, and until this new FF release, Safari's had a big advantage for users of shared computers due to private browsing (believe it or not, it actually does have uses besides porn!).

But Firefox still has two killer features.... When you enter a password on a website, Firefox lets you wait until you see whether the password worked before deciding whether to save it. Safari makes you decide before the submission goes through.

Also, Firefox's use of plugins allows for way more customization.

This is not meant as a slam, btw, I'd really appreciate a thoughtful response or two and maybe learn something, since lots of users seem to like Safari well-enough.

I really wish I could find more to like about Safari, because fast it is, and Apple's tying parts of its ecosystem to Safari. From what I can see, also, it doesn't have as much memory hogging creep as Firefox, which I have to shut down every few hours after it starts to rise above 400 MB of active memory use (and over 1.5 GB virtual).

But here we are at V4 in 2009 and Safari still doesn't do even multiple home pages, let alone this next function that's critical to my way of working:

I use a browser as a multi-tasking workspace over time, dealing with news, multiple email accounts, shared docs, entertainment sites, research on various topics, social networking - and when you set FF to reopen the browser session you left, you not only get all the tabs you were on - which, yes, I've learned you can manually ask Safari to do once it's up - but you get them with each tab's complete history so you can go back and forth on each.

And when it comes to add-ons, Mozilla's totally free version of the "App Store," Safari's so far in the rear-view mirror as to be invisible in FF's dust. Googlepedia - which presents a Wikipedia article (often quite relevant) to the right of the search results where the annoying spam, err, "helpful Google ads" usually appear is a prime example. Customize Google. Cool Previews, Cool Iris, etc.

The paltry few Safari add-ons I found for S3 (and I can't even find them or how to add them in Safari 4, but they must be there??) were all geek-tinkering stuff of no interest to me.

Note: I just used the Safari help system to re-look and "add plug-ins," "extensions" and "add-ons" (with or without the word "Safari" ALL return ZERO help results, and the help available for "plug-ins" has no mention whatsoever of customizing Safari. WT.....??? How extensible is Safari meant to be?

(e.g., I thought X-Marks, which is now synchronizing my FF bookmarks across three computers) for example was now available??)

Then there's the absence of multiple search engines in the search box. I frequently use a dictionary search, IMDB, YouTube, Wikipedia, and yes, of late, Bing is more and more often my choice. Why the limitation? $$ from Google to Apple? Not that Google isn't the leading engine by a wide margin yet, but again, it's not the only useful search tool in the box for all users all the time.

Safari preferences are also frustrating - mostly in their absence of fine-grain control. Very dumbed-down and limited by comparison to FF. Unless I'm missing it, you can't even see your site passwords - a feature that sends me back to my FF prefs on my notebook whenever I need to open a site on another computer - or say, when I want to keep trying to warm up to using Safari.

And the lack of a progress bar indicator when loading a page, even if it wasn't totally accurate, is I think a step back in S4.

That said, top sites is a nice feature - typically Apple - rather useful eye candy, but someone tell me, what else am I missing?

Plus, purely subjectively, I find Safari kinda ugly.

So for me, I'm hoping for improved mem management for FF as I don't see Safari being in any rush to deal with any of the issues I've raised above.

I think most of the stuff you mentioned is pretty fair, it's just a question of how important those features are to everyone. You have to admit that not every one will find those features as important as you do, and there are other things Safari does better. Also, many people are fans of minimalism, look how far Google's taken that with Chrome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigpics

This is not meant as a slam, btw, I'd really appreciate a thoughtful response or two and maybe learn something, since lots of users seem to like Safari well-enough.

I really wish I could find more to like about Safari, because fast it is, and Apple's tying parts of its ecosystem to Safari. From what I can see, also, it doesn't have as much memory hogging creep as Firefox, which I have to shut down every few hours after it starts to rise above 400 MB of active memory use (and over 1.5 GB virtual).

But here we are at V4 in 2009 and Safari still doesn't do even multiple home pages, let alone this next function that's critical to my way of working:

Top sites can be a replacement for that functionality, since you can customize how many and which sites show up, and see at a glance if the page has been updated without having to open it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigpics

I use a browser as a multi-tasking workspace over time, dealing with news, multiple email accounts, shared docs, entertainment sites, research on various topics, social networking - and when you set FF to reopen the browser session you left, you not only get all the tabs you were on - which, yes, I've learned you can manually ask Safari to do once it's up - but you get them with each tab's complete history so you can go back and forth on each.

And when it comes to add-ons, Mozilla's totally free version of the "App Store," Safari's so far in the rear-view mirror as to be invisible in FF's dust. Googlepedia - which presents a Wikipedia article (often quite relevant) to the right of the search results where the annoying spam, err, "helpful Google ads" usually appear is a prime example. Customize Google. Cool Previews, Cool Iris, etc.

Fair enough. Cool Iris is available for Safari, though. And probably lots of others, I don't really spend a lot of time looking around for such things. But I would say Apple could do a lot to encourage development of plug-ins than they're doing right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigpics

The paltry few Safari add-ons I found for S3 (and I can't even find them or how to add them in Safari 4, but they must be there??) were all geek-tinkering stuff of no interest to me.

Note: I just used the Safari help system to re-look and "add plug-ins," "extensions" and "add-ons" (with or without the word "Safari" ALL return ZERO help results, and the help available for "plug-ins" has no mention whatsoever of customizing Safari. WT.....??? How extensible is Safari meant to be?

(e.g., I thought X-Marks, which is now synchronizing my FF bookmarks across three computers) for example was now available??)

Then there's the absence of multiple search engines in the search box. I frequently use a dictionary search, IMDB, YouTube, Wikipedia, and yes, of late, Bing is more and more often my choice. Why the limitation? $$ from Google to Apple? Not that Google isn't the leading engine by a wide margin yet, but again, it's not the only useful search tool in the box for all users all the time.

Safari preferences are also frustrating - mostly in their absence of fine-grain control. Very dumbed-down and limited by comparison to FF. Unless I'm missing it, you can't even see your site passwords - a feature that sends me back to my FF prefs on my notebook whenever I need to open a site on another computer - or say, when I want to keep trying to warm up to using Safari.

Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity. Some people prefer it. As for the passwords, they're all in your keychain along with all other OS X passwords, mail, etc. I think that's a plus for Safari over Firefox.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigpics

And the lack of a progress bar indicator when loading a page, even if it wasn't totally accurate, is I think a step back in S4.

That said, top sites is a nice feature - typically Apple - rather useful eye candy, but someone tell me, what else am I missing?

As I mentioned before: Cover flow history! Nobody else has got anything close (AFAIK), and it is pretty damn unreplaceable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigpics

Plus, purely subjectively, I find Safari kinda ugly.

So for me, I'm hoping for improved mem management for FF as I don't see Safari being in any rush to deal with any of the issues I've raised above.

I think most of the stuff you mentioned is pretty fair, it's just a question of how important those features are to everyone. You have to admit that not every one will find those features as important as you do, and there are other things Safari does better. Also, many people are fans of minimalism, look how far Google's taken that with Chrome.

Bigpics certainly makes some valid points as to why Safari doesnt work for him, but that isnt what Apple usually operates and I wouldnt expect most of those features to ever come to Safari.

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"

I like Safari 4 because Flash no longer crashes Safari as badly as before. I like Firefox because when you resize the page (Command Plus or Command Minus) It remembers that resize for the whole site, when you open new tabs of the same site (eg. AppleInsider it remembers the zoom setting...). Great to see Safari and Firefox improve overall, anything to fight the menace that is Internutz Exploder.

They are crapping on Safari because not only is Safari eating away more of IE it is also eating away part of FF market growth.

Add Chrome and the WebKit based browser market will surpass the Gecko market within 18 months.

Mozilla will have to adopt WebKit at some point. It'll cost them less than rewriting Gecko. Opera should do the same, Presto is falling behind and Opera doesn't have the critical mass to push it forward as fast as Apple and Google are pushing WebKit.

Mozilla will have to adopt WebKit at some point. It'll cost them less than rewriting Gecko. Opera should do the same, Presto is falling behind and Opera doesn't have the critical mass to push it forward as fast as Apple and Google are pushing WebKit.

Could you post some info that backs your theory up? From my experience Presto and Gecko are more than fast enough and standards compliant to make an impact on PC and mobile platforms for the foreseeable future.

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"

They are crapping on Safari because not only is Safari eating away more of IE it is also eating away part of FF market growth.

? Firefox use is still growing. Hitslink shows FF at 20% last Nov/Dec, it's at 22% now.

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Add Chrome and the WebKit based browser market will surpass the Gecko market within 18 months.

Is this a wish on your part, or is there information to back this up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aizmov

Mozilla will have to adopt WebKit at some point. It'll cost them less than rewriting Gecko. Opera should do the same, Presto is falling behind and Opera doesn't have the critical mass to push it forward as fast as Apple and Google are pushing WebKit.

I think it's a bad idea for this kind of homogenization to happen. Everyone using the same rendering engine is only slightly better than everyone using the same browser in my opinion. If there is a serious security exploit, under your vision, there aren't any alternatives to use while waiting for the problem to be fixed.