Podcast

Most lawyers are not properly trained in legal negotiations. In many law schools, negotiation classes are offered—but not mandatory. So how does a lawyer cultivate the necessary skills and learn to negotiate effectively? Dr. Claudia Winkler joins me today to open the discussion about legal negotiation. We talk about the perception of lawyers’ abilities, managing emotion, planning a legal negotiation—and more. Don’t miss this episode of Negotiations Ninja!

Dr. Claudia Winkler is the founder and lead trainer at The Negotiation Academy™. She holds a Master of Law from Harvard Law and a Doctorate of Law (in European Union Law) from Johannes Kepler Universität Linz. She desires to help lawyers leverage their communication and negotiation skills to become the super-negotiators of tomorrow. Listen for a glimpse of her story and an overview of negotiations for lawyers.

Outline of This Episode

[2:08] Dr. Claudia Winkler’s background in law and negotiation

[3:58] The public expectation that lawyers are super-negotiators

[8:10] Where legal negotiations tend to derail

[9:53] Fight or flight: how to teach lawyers to manage their emotions

[11:49] How Claudia recommends improving negotiation skills

[14:44] Planning and preparation for a legal negotiation

[16:40] Cultivate open communication between lawyers and clients

[20:17] Negotiating during times of crisis

[23:41] Enactment of a Force Majeure clause

[26:52] How to connect with Dr. Claudia Winkler

The common misconception of lawyers

Claudia points out that the general public expects lawyers to be super-negotiators: “There’s a problematic divide in the perception of the general population, that every lawyer by definition must be an excellent negotiator.” The sad reality is that most lawyers don’t get the necessary training to be skilled negotiators.

Clients will hire lawyers to manage their business negotiations, only to find that the negotiation process is failing. In many instances, the lawyer is hindering the process—destroying value instead of building it. Whereas the general population used to revere lawyer’s skills, now they are biased against lawyers. Claudia’s goal is to help lawyers—and other negotiation professionals—develop those oh-so-necessary skills that they’re lacking.

Planning and preparation for legal negotiations

Preparation for a legal negotiation is similar to any other negotiation. Of course it depends on each legal situation. But building from there, you have to look at the interests behind positions, gauge bargaining power, and research objective criteria. Claudia states that “What is especially key and what’s often overlooked is looking more broadly at business interests.”

Problems arise because many lawyers stop probing for what makes each case unique and different. Instead, they only focus on how a case is similar to previous cases. But what sets your client apart? How is their situation unique? What is really important to them? What long-term effects do they want to have?

When you focus on those key drivers you can negotiate a good deal. Claudia believes it’s a mindset that you must learn to develop and remember to stress in the negotiation process.

Clear and open communication is key

Claudia notes that a lawyer can’t leave a failed negotiation and say: “Well the client didn’t tell me this was key.” Guess what—it was your job to find out what was important. As a lawyer, you need to understand the motivations underneath the legal problem. You must learn to actively listen to your clients to gauge the direction you must take.

Likewise, clients can’t assume that what’s obvious to them is obvious to their lawyer. You must overly communicate your big-picture business interests. It helps guide them on how to act and determine what their role is moving forward. Claudia notes that you must tell your lawyer how to communicate with you. Don’t you want to be involved in every step of the process? Or do you want to be notified when all is said and done?

Legal negotiations in times of crisis

At the time of recording this podcast, the world is struggling amidst the Coronavirus Crisis. The global impact on large and small businesses continues to grow. It’s an unprecedented and challenging time because we have very little to compare to. There aren’t clauses in contracts to account for situations like this.

If you’re forced to negotiate a business contract, you’ll need to rely on being creative to find solutions that benefit both sides. There are certainly psychological hurdles that must be overcome. Everyone is focused on loss-aversion because every business feels that they’re in a lose-lose scenario.

When you become focused on loss-aversion it becomes far harder to focus on solutions. So don’t allow yourself to fall into the trap—think outside the box and create new opportunities to benefit your clients and their counterpart.

To learn why negotiations derail, how to overcome emotions and psychological hurdles, and whether or not to consider a ‘Force Majeure’ clause in contracts moving forward—listen to the whole episode of the Negotiations Ninja podcast!

Negotiators don’t always take into consideration the importance of understanding cultural intelligence. Culture isn’t just an outlying factor, but it’s pervasive and impacts every moment of a negotiation. In this episode of Negotiations Ninja, Mark Davis joins me to talk about the impact of culture, the lens through which we can understand it, and how it influences your decision-making.

Mark Davis is a negotiator who emphasizes the importance of cultural intelligence. Negotiating with people from different cultures—and organizational cultures—is becoming more and more common. To be effective at what we do, we must learn to adjust and adapt our negotiation techniques to find success for both parties. Listen for his expertise in cultural intelligence.

Outline of This Episode

[0:45] Culture and how it impacts negotiations

[2:00] Mark’s background in negotiation

[3:56] What negotiation is—and what it isn’t

[6:29] Why it’s important to understand culture

[8:40] Adaptation of perspective in the midst of conflict

[14:05] Top 3 cultural negotiation values to master

[19:20] The concept of a negotiation campaign

[23:53] Cultural differences aren’t something overcome

[24:57] Connect with Mark

The simple premise of negotiation isn’t so simple

The basic premise of a negotiation is when two parties come together to get a deal done. Each side makes clear the criteria they have and what they want the product or service to achieve. It seems relatively straightforward and simple in nature. But Mark points out that you often get to a point where you reach a deadlock or conflict both parties cannot overcome.

In Mark’s experience, using the best tools he had available, he still couldn’t find a way to overcome the issues. There wasn’t a language or lens to look at the negotiation differently to get past the issues he was facing in negotiations. What Mark found is that people often didn’t take into account the culture of both organizations.

Why Cultural Intelligence is important

Mark goes on to share that “Culture at its very nature is pervasive in all negotiation and in fact, it should be a framework through which you can overcome these obstacles and they rise to the surface.” Understanding culture gives you that elusive lens through which you can look at a negotiation differently when you reach points of conflict. When you negotiate across cultures that don’t have a ton in common, cultural intelligence is especially important for every interaction you have with the other party.

Mark establishes that cultural intelligence is utterly important—so how do you develop it? It starts with a basic understanding of how culture differs in every detail. The culture you grew up enmeshed dictates how you address your elders/superiors as well and influences your corporate or organizational viewpoints. In some ways, you are a product of the environment you find yourself in.

Why you must learn to adapt your perspective

Mark points out that adaptation of perspective is something that people are aware of, but don’t readily engage in consciously when faced with conflict. The very definition of cultural intelligence is the ability to “Function effectively in all cultural contexts and all cultural scenarios.” You have to be able to adapt your perspective in the midst of conflict consciously, by design.

It’s difficult to do when emotions are high. Mark points out that cultural intelligence takes emotional intelligence a step further: “Without the language and the capacity that cultural intelligence gives you, your reaction to your own emotional responses is confined to your own cultural perspective.”

So how do we adapt our perspective to understand the cultural intricacies of the conflict? Mark shares about the program they’ve developed to give negotiators that extra layer of capability. Keep listening to learn more about it.

The concept of a negotiation campaign

Mark shares his idea of a negotiation “campaign” of sorts, mainly emphasizing that a negotiation isn’t isolated to a two-week bubble. A negotiation is a cyclical process of understanding the other parties’ motivations and gathering data that feeds into your strategy. Executing your negotiation strategy includes contemplating the words and non-verbal signals you’ll use.

It all comes down to communication. Mark emphasizes that negotiation itself should be viewed as a continuous campaign of action, knowledge gathering and knowledge sharing, planning your strategy, planning your moves, and communicating throughout the year. You constantly strategize and re-strategize throughout the process.

To hear our full conversation and some final words of wisdom from Mark, be sure to listen to the entire episode of Negotiations Ninja.

Those in sales management know it can be a difficult task. Managing sales teams, working with business owners, and managing integration with the rest of the business can be rough to navigate. Many sales managers have mastered their craft, while others are in the position simply for more money. But good sales managers can teach us a lot about communication, conversation, and negotiation.

Rene Zamora joins me in this episode of Negotiations Ninja to share his expertise in sales management and communication. Rene is an expert sales management consultant who specializes in working with small business owners and their sales teams to redefine their relationships—and begin to sell more effectively. Over the years, Rene has learned what transforms sales teams and pushes them to excel. Don’t miss his expert advice!

Outline of This Episode

[1:13] Rene’s background in sales management

[2:47] Do good sales people make good managers?

[3:47] The major challenges sales managers face

[4:54] THE basic selling tool: conversation

[7:31] Manage your internal negotiation

[9:40] What if you don’t have experience?

[15:14] How to manage your sales team

[17:56] Clear and consistent communication

[21:23] Procurement: how to connect with salespeople

[23:38] It begins and ends with conversation skills

Good salespeople don’t always make good sales managers

According to Rene, most statistics point towards salespeople being awful managers. But he also points out that you can’t generalize—it’s 100% about the person being considered for the position. A manager has to be prepared to be responsible for someone else’s success.

Is the person being considered mature enough in their career? What is their intention for the position?

Rene believes you shouldn’t talk someone into a management position with the lure of money. They have to encapsulate a desire to help others. Without that desire, they will flounder in their new role.

The #1 Basic Selling Tool: Conversation

A good sales manager—and salespeople in general—need to be able to engage in conversation. They have to master not only face-to-face communication, but texting, email, and virtual meetings through Zoom. Each mode of communication offers its own set of challenges. It’s difficult to gauge body language and facial expressions through email and texting.

Conversation is a lost art. It involves active listening, asking open-ended questions, and keeping the conversation relevant and interesting to the person you’re conversing with. Listen to hear some of Rene’s techniques for generating useful conversation.

How to manage a negotiation

Inside every negotiation, THREE conversations are happening: the self-talk in your mind, your counterparts’ inner thoughts, and the actual back and forth between each side. You have to overcome your fear, self-doubt, and inner judgments to excel in the conversation. You have to actively listen, decide on responses, and craft the next question—all the while wondering what’s going on in the other person’s head.

Rene points out that as you become more experienced and confident in your negotiation and conversation abilities, the process becomes smoother. You spend less time focused on your next move and spend more time actively listening and being engaged. Conversation flows naturally. According to Rene, It’s akin to how professional athletes perceive the game:

“They say that—when they get experienced—the game slows down for them and they can make good moves. But when they’re new to it, it’s fast and quick, and they’re in their head trying to figure out what to do.”

Just like becoming a professional athlete, it takes hard work and dedicated practice to master conversation skills. You won’t become an experienced negotiator, salesperson, or sales manager overnight. You don’t have to be a “natural”. You just have to practice. Repetition is the mother of all skill.

Sales management is a whole new world

Rene usually steps in when small business owners become exasperated trying to manage their sales teams. Why? Because most people don’t naturally know how to manage salespeople. Sales professionals are typically assertive, influential, impatient, and unafraid to ask for what they want. All great qualities in a salesperson—but considered disruptive internally.

Business owners don’t know how to manage salespeople. It’s as simple as that.

Rene sees owners on both sides of the spectrum. They’re either too controlling and aggressive or avoid their sales teams altogether. A sales manager can’t be dominant, controlling, or micro-manage—but many do. So Rene steps in to help repair the relationship, facilitate communication, and help each side learn to excel in their given roles.

So how do sales managers/business owners set boundaries with their teams? How do they reinforce what’s important? How should procurement deal with salespeople? Rene covers these topics and much more in the rest of this episode.

Conflict resolution in negotiation is important for a negotiator to master—or at the very least learn to understand. You must be able to find confidence in the conflict, which is one of the main themes running through Kwame Christian’s new book: Nobody Will Play With Me: How To Use Compassionate Curiosity to Find Confidence in Conflict. Listen to this episode for an inside look at his book. We also cover conflict resolution—both internally and externally—and a psychological aspect of negotiation often overlooked.

Kwame Christian is a Negotiation & Conflict Resolution Training Consultant as well as a business lawyer, mediator, and skilled negotiator. He is the Director and Lead Trainer at the American Negotiation Institute as well as the host of the Negotiate Anything podcast. He is passionate about empowering professionals to find confidence in conflict and navigate difficult conversations like master negotiators. Don’t miss his unique and engaging insight into the world of negotiation.

Outline of This Episode

[1:39] Background: Who is Kwame Christian?

[3:22] Kwame’s new book: Nobody Will Play With Me

[4:44] Overcome your fear to find confidence in conflict

[7:42] Strategy and planning yield better results

[15:11] Everyone is created equally—but differently

[19:43] Allow yourself the license to fail

[25:18] The psychological aspect of negotiation

[30:58] Preparation is the best way to find success

Find confidence in conflict

Kwame is a lawyer, but he graduated with a degree in Psychology for his undergrad. His book talks about some of the basics of psychology and the concept of how to overcome fear. We all have different fears regarding conflict that we must overcome to excel at our jobs. Kwame points out that “As negotiation experts, we are giving recipes for people afraid to get in the kitchen.” To “get in the kitchen” negotiators must first learn how to overcome emotional fears to build a foundation to make it through difficult conversations. It’s not about techniques, tactics, and skills that you bring to the table—but finding confidence in the conflict.

Conflict resolution in negotiation begins with overcoming fear

Kwame shares that he’s naturally a people-pleaser. His fear has to do with the loss of a relationship if something goes wrong. It stems from his childhood, being the only Caribbean-American in rural Ohio. No one would play with him at recess and he found himself in the nurse’s office in tears—and vowed that would never happen again.

So he set off on a “friendship offensive” (as he calls it) and became really popular and well-liked. He didn’t want to jeopardize the relationships he worked so hard to cultivate, so whenever conflict arose, he backed down. He compromised, gave up, or shied away—even when it was something important to him.

Everyone has to go through an introspective process to overcome their barrier, whatever thing that’s holding them back. We view conflict as a “specter”—something in the shadows that’s scary. Kwame states that we can make something small look really big depending on the angle we view it from. We can’t look at conflict as something to be feared. Instead, we must look at conflict as an opportunity.

Allow yourself the license to fail

Kwame and I have a conversation about a negotiation that didn’t have the desired outcome. The reality is, you can do everything the right way and still not get the desired results. Sometimes there is no deal to be had. You are never guaranteed success. Just like in a game of poker, you won’t always have a winning hand.

Kwame is a huge chess fan and points out that Chess is all about positioning. You can put yourself in the best position for success and advance in the right direction. Every move you make you reassess and then make the next best move. In his words—“We can’t control the outcome of the negotiation. We can control how we perform during the process which will then have an impact on the outcome.”

If you don’t achieve the success that you want, it’s okay. You can’t let fear trick you into making poor decisions.

A simple framework for overcoming emotion in conflict resolution

In Kwame’s book, he shares a simple framework for overcoming the emotions you experience throughout the negotiation process. His “compassionate curiosity framework” looks like this:

Acknowledge and validate your emotions

Get curious with compassion

Engage in joint problem-solving

You can easily use this framework when you see someone who is emotional—whether in a negotiation, at home, or even internally. You acknowledge your counterparty’s emotion: “It seems you’re frustrated right now.” Secondly, be curious and compassionate: “What is causing you to feel this way?” Lastly, use their answers to deescalate the situation and engage in joint problem-solving.

To learn more about the psychological aspect of negotiation, creating your own authentic negotiation style, and the importance of planning in negotiation, listen to the whole episode.

The Coronavirus crisis has taken the world by storm. When so much of life is up in the air, how do we need to change our negotiation tactics? Do we NEED to change our tactics? What are some strategies we can use to navigate this pandemic? Today’s episode of Negotiations Ninja is a Q&A with Gary Noesner and Allan Tsang, with Shane Ray Martin moderating.

Gary Noesner is a former FBI Negotiator and author of “Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator.”

Allan Tsang is a negotiation coach for entrepreneurs and professionals and the founder of 88 Owls. He helps negotiators get what they want without unnecessary compromise.

Shane Ray Martin is a speaker who’s passionate about negotiation, sales, and positivity. His goal is to help entrepreneurs become more self-confident and be more fulfilled.

Outline of This Episode

[5:20] Don’t rush the negotiation

[9:45] Should you prepare differently during COVID-19?

[11:58] The foundational principle of relationship building

[17:56] Reaching out to existing vendors mid-contract

[22:35] Handling high-stakes negotiations

[30:15] Who should negotiate their salary right now?

[33:28] Clients demanding extended payment terms

[41:48] You have to ask the right questions

[44:48] Should you consider a contingency model?

[47:18] Final words of encouragement

Do NOT embrace the “need for speed”

During the Coronavirus crisis, it can be easy to allow your emotions to take over—even as a trained negotiator—and rush decisions. But you shouldn’t respond too quickly without a strategy in mind. You need to slow your thinking and the way you’re addressing your negotiations to avoid being forced into unnecessary concessions.

Likewise, Allan points out that letting time go by allows the mental pain in the mind of your counterpart to intensify. That pain doesn’t resolve—and they’ll be the ones left awake at night thinking about your negotiation. Gary agrees that you must study the situation, get the right input, and develop an effective strategy for moving forward. You must use your time wisely.

Relationship building is the foundation of negotiation

The Coronavirus crisis may not be an ideal time for negotiation—but it is an ideal time to shore up your relationships. Reach out to your clients and ask how they’re doing. How’s their family? How are they coping? Let them know you’re thinking about them while being sincere and genuine. The relationships you build and maintain during this time will go a long way when we are on the other side of the pandemic.

Allan found a selfless way to serve his clients: When he found out some of his clients in Hong Kong didn’t have masks to wear for their daily commute, he bought boxes of masks and spent hundreds of dollars to ship them to Hong Kong. Simple yet compassionate speaks volumes about who you are as a human and a negotiator.

How to reach out to existing vendors

Communicating with existing vendors about how your company is handling the COVID-19 crisis should start formally. Have your CFO write formal letters to existing contracts—and those you plan on opening—and lay out the facts. These are difficult times, and these are the areas where we need your grace or help.

Then you follow-up with your contact at a senior level. Be straight with them—we are going through a crisis, and we can’t make high pricing work. Ask them to talk about what makes sense and be direct: we don’t have time to argue back and forth, so let’s find a solution that makes sense for both parties.

Your business can’t afford to have your ego get in the way of doing the right thing. You HAVE to do what’s right for your business and its survival. Check your ego at the door, bolster your self-confidence and forge ahead.

How to respond to demands for extended payment terms

Everyone is scrambling to hold on to cash and trying to renegotiate payment terms. How should negotiators respond?

Have a strategy: You can’t extend payment terms at the expense of your own business. You need cash flow to stay afloat as much as everyone else does.

Know your walking away point: If you can’t operate at the position they’re demanding, it may be time to part ways.

Get them to understand your position: Use mirroring tactics. Ask the right questions. I.e. “How are we supposed to be a bank during this crisis. Does that seem reasonable?” You have to be direct and make them understand the impact of their request.

Allan shares an alternate strategy—he never walks away from deals, because you have to be 100% certain you don’t ever want that deal. Instead, he encourages the counterparty to walk away, i.e., “If this isn’t what you want, you let me know, and I’ll close this file.” It puts the decision-making in their court—and loss-aversion kicks in.

Gary proposes another thought—play “good cop bad-cop” if you aren’t the final decision maker: “Let’s find somewhere to meet in the middle because my boss will NEVER approve this.” Often, it’s not even a tactic, but the simple truth. You must find a way to negotiate and compromise on both sides of the table.

Do you want to learn more about framing discovery questions? Offering contingencies?

How to manage your emotions in a time where everyone is afraid? Who should or shouldn’t negotiate their salary? Listen to this whole episode as we work to answer your burning questions.

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