Requirements:
To qualify to become a Mindspy, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Skills: Concentration 8 ranks.
Special: Able to cast/manifest either Detect Thoughts or Read Thoughts, as either a spell, a power, a spell-like ability, a psi-like ability, or a supernatural ability.

Class Skills:
The Mindspy's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Profession (Wis), and Sense Motive (Wis). Additionally, add up to two skills and one knowledge skill of your choice into the Mindspy class skill list, all of which must have been class skills from previous base classes.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier

Table - The Mindspy

Level
BAB

Fort
Ref
Will
Special

Accelerated Mindscan

Spells per Day or Powers Known

1st

+0

+0
+0
+2
Thoughtsphere, Anticipate, Combat Telepathy

-

-

2nd
+1

+0
+0
+3
Accelerated Mindscan

-1 round

+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class

3rd
+2
+1
+1
+3
Thoughtscour

-2 rounds

+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class

4th

+3

+1
+1
+4
Heightened Probe

-3 rounds

+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class

5th

+3

+1
+1
+4
Mindseeker

-4 rounds

+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class

Class Features
All the following are class features of the Mindspy prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A Mindspy gains no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day / Powers Known
At each Mindspy level except for the first, the Mindspy gains either new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) or additional power points per day (and access to new powers, if applicable) as if she had also attained a level in any spellcasting or manifesting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.

If a character had more than one classes before becoming a Mindspy, she must decide to which class she adds each level of Mindspy for purpose of determining either spells per day, spells known, & caster level, or power points per day, powers known, & manifester level. If a character had no such class to progress, simply increase the caster level at each level by 1.

Thoughtsphere (Su):
A Mindspy gains Telepathy out to a radius of 60ft.. The range increases by 10ft. per each subsequent Mindspy level, to a maximum of 100ft at 5th level. Any time you use a Detect Thoughts or Read Thoughts spell/power/effect, you may instead use this Telepathy's area/range.

Anticipate (Su): Because she is reading her foe’s thoughts, a Mindspy knows where she needs to block and how she needs to dodge before an attack from the foe arrives.

A Mindspy gains an insight bonus to Armor Class and attack rolls equal to half her spellcasting/manifesting ability modifier (Int, Wis, or Cha only), against up to one non-mindless creature per Mindspy level within the range of her Detect Thoughts or Read Thoughts (or Thoughtsphere, if she uses this range for detecting or reading thoughts instead). Creatures whose surface thoughts she is currently detecting do not count against this limit. Once per round as a free action, she can choose which creatures to anticipate.

At 5th level, the bonus instead becomes equal to the full ability modifier.

She loses the bonus from Anticipate when either flat-footed or denied her Dexterity bonus to AC.

Combat Telepathy (Su):
A Mindspy can make a Concentration check (DC 10 + damage taken during the previous round) at the beginning of her turn. If the Mindspy succeeds, she can maintain concentration on Detect Thoughts or Read Thoughts as a free action.

Additionally, you can use Detect Thoughts and Read Thoughts as Supernatural Abilities, each usable once per day per Mindspy level. However, you can recover these uses simply by meditating for 5 minutes. This lets you use them at each encounter, provided you have some time to rest in between. The caster/manifester level is equal to her normal caster level for Detect Thoughts or Read Thoughts.

Accelerated Mindscan (Su): A mindspy has become adept at tuning into others’ thoughts quickly.

Starting at 2nd level, for the purposes of determining the amount of information revealed by a Mindspy's Detect Thoughts, reduce the needed rounds of concentration by 1.At 2nd level, a Mindspy using Detect Thoughts, instantly detects the presence of thoughts (1st round becomes 0th round) within her detecting range. At the beginning of her next turn (2nd round becomes 1st round), she detects the number of thinking minds and the Intelligence score of each. And finally at the beginning of her turn after that (3rd round becomes 2nd), she detects the surface thoughts of creatures who failed their Will save.At 3rd, 4th, and 5th level, reduce it further by 1 (to a minimum of 0 round, which means that information are revealed instantly without concentration checks).

Additionally, starting at 4th level, the manifesting time of Read Thoughts (whether as a power, psi-like ability, or supernatural ability) becomes a swift action instead.

Thoughtscour (Su):
Starting at 3rd level, a Mindspy can simultaneously detect the surface thoughts from a number of creatures up to her Mindspy level. Once per round as a free action, she can choose new minds to listen in on. At 5th level, a Mindspy can simultaneously detect the surface thoughts from a number of creatures equal to her Mindspy level plus her spellcasting/manifesting ability modifier (Int, Wis, or Cha only) instead.

Additionally, Read Thoughts used by a Mindspy no longer needs line of sight to pinpoint creatures.

Heightened Probe (Su): A Mindspy gets deeper access to the mind of the creature whose thoughts she unfailingly detected.

Starting at 4th level, add the following to the effect of Detect Thoughts and Read Thoughts.

Detect Thoughts
4th round
Partial memory of any mind in the area: you may learn the answer to a single question, to the best of the creature's knowledge. This only works on a creature whose surface thoughts you detected within the last round; a successful Will save prevents you from reading its thoughts.

You pose the questions telepathically, and the answers to those questions are imparted directly to your mind. You and the subject do not need to speak the same language, though less intelligent creatures may yield up only appropriate visual images in answer to your questions. You may only ask one single question per creature per casting of Detect Thoughts.

Read Thoughts
Augment*
For every additional power points you spend, this power may ignore up to an additional 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, 3 feet of wood, and 3 feet of dirt, for the purpose of such materials blocking the power's effects. This also allows you to pinpoint the location of an affected mind you don't have line of effect with.
* Read Thoughts used as a psi-like ability or supernatural ability are automatically augmented to the maximum allowable (based on normal limit of power point expenditure)

Mindseeker (Ex):
Starting at 5th level, a Mindspy's class features, Detect Thoughts, and Read Thoughts, can bypass any immunities to mind-affecting (except for having Int - ) and any immunities to divination/clairsentience effects by succeeding on an opposed caster/manifester (whichever applies) level check for each such immunity in effect. Bonuses to caster/manifester level (such as from an Ioun Stone or the Overchannel feat) don't count for the purposes of such opposed check.

If an immunity on a creature isn't granted by a spell, power, or similar effect, use the creature's Hit Die in place of caster/manifester level.

Author Notes
For PrC Users
I appreciate any sort of feedback on how the class worked (or didn't) on your campaign, so feel free to post on this thread about it. Any suggestions on improving the class is also welcome.

For PEACHers
In a continuous effort to improve my homebrewing skills (and quite frankly, is there any other way than practicing and learning from mistakes?), here's my remake of the Mindspy class. The aim is to make the class at least viable to be played with a good power bump here and there, while retaining it's original fluff.

PEACHes, comments, pure adulation, and suggestions are all welcome and are dearly appreciated! Go ahead folks! Let her rip!

Loek

2014-05-10, 10:42 AM

First of, Yay, I love the (idea behind) the mind spy.

Lets go through it, top to bottom:

Class skills, I personally feel some knowledge skills (arcane/psionics/religion) are needed, but I figure you can take those for the 2 "selectable" skills (nice idea btw). If I'd change anything there, I'd make one of those 2 skills a mandatory knowledge skill (or maybe give one next to the 2 selectable ones...)

Spells/powers known/per day: While the class needed "caster" progression, I feel that limiting it to only these classes is kinda harsh (especially as there are so many ways that you can qualify). Why exclude basic wizards and sorcerers? (And whatever else can qualify). Personally, I'd change it to say "+1 level of existing chosen caster class" (though keeping it limited to base classes might avoid certain broken prestige classes from benefiting too much, but it also penalizes things like prestige paladins (couldn't think of other similar classes that gain all their casting from the prestige, but I'm sure they are out there).

Thoughtsphere: Interesting concept, but telepathy is quite an overpowered ability (with the mind sight (or something like that) feat especially) and giving at will detect thoughts is neat (and fits the class) but together these two abilities make for an awesome dip (especially since nothing is surrendered, no bum feats, no loss of casting, no new weaknesses, nothing). Not entirely sure if I'd keep the detect thoughts as a supernatural ability as well (plus, what kind of action is it to use that ability?)

Anticipate: While the old limit of "creatures whose thoughts you are detecting" was kind of limiting, your limit of everything in range of telepathy (which becomes massive by level 5) is too much. Maybe do something with a max on the amount of creatures (1 per level? or 1 per ability mod?) or something like the original class with direction (1 90 degree wedge?). As it is, it's a bit much.

Accelerated Mindscan: Remember that feat that I feel seriously over powers large range telepathy? You just gave it out for free... bad idea. As for the actual acceleration part... it feels too fast. Grant 2 turn concentration, then 1 turn and then at the end a single action (move or standard). Immediately jumping from 3 turns to 1 action is a bit much.

Thoughtscour: Again overly compensating for the original class' problems. I'd say 1 per level at first and 2 per level at the end (at the maximum) detecting all surface thoughts is... yikes... not to mention how the *peep* one could possibly remain sane with that many thoughts in your head at the same time.

Mind Probe: Again a sweet power that is probably way too powerful. On top of that, the standard immunity time is 24 hours, so 1 is again wanting too much out of this class. Also make them know you tried it if they resist the power and even if you succeed give them a chance of noticing it.

Mindspy: Giving the mind spy some chance to beat immunities/protections: good, giving him the ability to outright ignore them... yea, not such a good idea.

Adding a bit more oomph to certain powers is good.
Making every single power more powerful, adding more stuff and over powering the whole thing once gain is bad.

My advice:
Add caster progression to the original class, and leave most abilities as they were.

OR

Do something like this (actually minus some stuff), but add massive draw backs. (Not being able to concentrate, not being able to properly handle dealing with people, low initiative because you are always distracted, getting mental abilities damaged due to all the crap you are exposed to, etc, etc etc,)

OR

Find some mid point (less range, maybe not a sphere by a cone first - No mindsight for free - No outright beating immunities - Able to detect 2 per class level in the end, but suffering penalties if you try for more than 1 per class level - no full caster progression - etc etc)

Either way, I'd also recommend you to split up "thoughtsphere" and "accelerated mindscan" as they currently are really two features smashed under a single name. (split of the detect thoughts from the first and the mindsight (if you keep it) from the second).

Note: I'd play this in a heartbeat, but it is way way way overpowered. Check with yourself and try not to overcompensate for the issues with the original class (this seems like all good ideas to balance the original version, but you probably should have picked one of them, instead of all of them).

ben-zayb

2014-05-10, 11:24 AM

First of, Yay, I love the (idea behind) the mind spy.

Lets go through it, top to bottom:

Class skills, I personally feel some knowledge skills (arcane/psionics/religion) are needed, but I figure you can take those for the 2 "selectable" skills (nice idea btw). If I'd change anything there, I'd make one of those 2 skills a mandatory knowledge skill (or maybe give one next to the 2 selectable ones...)Glad you like it. But I'm not really sure limiting their choice is a better way. Perhaps 2 skills + 1 knowledge skill is fair?:smallconfused:

Spells/powers known/per day: While the class needed "caster" progression, I feel that limiting it to only these classes is kinda harsh (especially as there are so many ways that you can qualify). Why exclude basic wizards and sorcerers? (And whatever else can qualify). Personally, I'd change it to say "+1 level of existing chosen caster class" (though keeping it limited to base classes might avoid certain broken prestige classes from benefiting too much, but it also penalizes things like prestige paladins (couldn't think of other similar classes that gain all their casting from the prestige, but I'm sure they are out there).The idea behind is that these are the main compromise for getting the powered abilities. I feel like Conjurers/Generalists/Transmuters/Clerics have enough toys/power as it is, so giving them progression for this class is a bit much, at least compared to just being restricted to T3s and less optimized T1-2s like Enchanter/Diviner/Seer/Telepath.

Thoughtsphere: Interesting concept, but telepathy is quite an overpowered ability (with the mind sight (or something like that) feat especially) and giving at will detect thoughts is neat (and fits the class) but together these two abilities make for an awesome dip (especially since nothing is surrendered, no bum feats, no loss of casting, no new weaknesses, nothing). Not entirely sure if I'd keep the detect thoughts as a supernatural ability as well (plus, what kind of action is it to use that ability?)I was actually thinking of leaving the first level caster-progression-free... The rationale behind Telepathy + Detect thoughts is that Helm of Telepathy does the same thing. I was thinking of moving the at will Detect Thoughts up higher... 3rd or 4th maybe. (around the time a PC Doppleganger gets one)

Anticipate: While the old limit of "creatures whose thoughts you are detecting" was kind of limiting, your limit of everything in range of telepathy (which becomes massive by level 5) is too much. Maybe do something with a max on the amount of creatures (1 per level? or 1 per ability mod?) or something like the original class with direction (1 90 degree wedge?). As it is, it's a bit much. Creatures per mod seems good! I'll stealborrow that!

Accelerated Mindscan: Remember that feat that I feel seriously over powers large range telepathy? You just gave it out for free... bad idea. As for the actual acceleration part... it feels too fast. Grant 2 turn concentration, then 1 turn and then at the end a single action (move or standard). Immediately jumping from 3 turns to 1 action is a bit much.The idea here is that anyone who takes this class at level 6 will take the feat anyway, so this is just delaying the inevitable. And then there's the idea that on a closer inspection, Mindsight gives almost the same effect as two rounds of Detect Thoughts. Although the Detect Surface Thoughts alternative seems more balanced... how's this sound: 2 rounds at 2nd level, then 1 round at 3rd, full-round at 4th, and standard at 5th?

Thoughtscour: Again overly compensating for the original class' problems. I'd say 1 per level at first and 2 per level at the end (at the maximum) detecting all surface thoughts is... yikes... not to mention how the *peep* one could possibly remain sane with that many thoughts in your head at the same time.This seems reasonable, and probably better for balance...:smallbiggrin:

Mind Probe: Again a sweet power that is probably way too powerful. On top of that, the standard immunity time is 24 hours, so 1 is again wanting too much out of this class. Also make them know you tried it if they resist the power and even if you succeed give them a chance of noticing it.This is based off the Mind Probe spell (as the name suggests), weaker in that you can't spam attempt it on Will passers, but stronger in that it is spammable against Will failures (i.e. they're basically info-dumps). I'm not really sold on 24 hours as it seems too long, but 1 hour is too much I suppose... I'd probably change this to 8 hours.

Mindspy: Giving the mind spy some chance to beat immunities/protections: good, giving him the ability to outright ignore them... yea, not such a good idea. I dunno. The Dread Witch's main schtick is fear effects (a wide repertoire) and they get the "no immune" clause, and the Mindspy is far more restricted with what gets affected (basically 3-5 class features), so I think this is not too unbalancing.

Adding a bit more oomph to certain powers is good.
Making every single power more powerful, adding more stuff and over powering the whole thing once gain is bad.

My advice:
Add caster progression to the original class, and leave most abilities as they were.

OR

Do something like this (actually minus some stuff), but add massive draw backs. (Not being able to concentrate, not being able to properly handle dealing with people, low initiative because you are always distracted, getting mental abilities damaged due to all the crap you are exposed to, etc, etc etc,)

OR

Find some mid point (less range, maybe not a sphere by a cone first - No mindsight for free - No outright beating immunities - Able to detect 2 per class level in the end, but suffering penalties if you try for more than 1 per class level - no full caster progression - etc etc)

Either way, I'd also recommend you to split up "thoughtsphere" and "accelerated mindscan" as they currently are really two features smashed under a single name. (split of the detect thoughts from the first and the mindsight (if you keep it) from the second).

Note: I'd play this in a heartbeat, but it is way way way overpowered. Check with yourself and try not to overcompensate for the issues with the original class (this seems like all good ideas to balance the original version, but you probably should have picked one of them, instead of all of them).I'd probably go with the mid-point (as I already nerfed the available class the gets progression, as a sort of drawback), although our ideas of what constitute the middle might differ.:smalltongue:

Loek

2014-05-10, 11:58 AM

Glad you like it. But I'm not really sure limiting their choice is a better way. Perhaps 2 skills + 1 knowledge skill is fair?:smallconfused:

Yea, something like that.

The idea behind is that these are the main compromise for getting the powered abilities. I feel like Conjurers/Generalists/Transmuters/Clerics have enough toys/power as it is, so giving them progression for this class is a bit much, at least compared to just being restricted to T3s and less optimized T1-2s like Enchanter/Diviner/Seer/Telepath.

While I can agree with your idea here, I'd at least still allow the sorcerer access to the class (he'd be spending one of his rather restricted spells to get in).

I was actually thinking of leaving the first level caster-progression-free... The rationale behind Telepathy + Detect thoughts is that Helm of Telepathy does the same thing. I was thinking of moving the at will Detect Thoughts up higher... 3rd or 4th maybe. (around the time a PC Doppleganger gets one)

Fully agree with leaving the first level without progression. I'd suggest adding another progresion-less level at 5th (to compensate for the immunity busting).

As for delaying detect thoughts at will... Good idea, maybe give some X uses per day (1 per level?) at the earlier levels?

Finally for the "as helm of telepathy", it only gives telepathic communication to those whose surface thoughts your reading. Currently you are giving him telepathy for the entire sphere, not just the ones he's reading.

Finally, the range is really massive... Maybe do 60/70/80/90/100 (starting at the range of detect thoughts and maxing at the normal telepathy range).

The idea here is that anyone who takes this class at level 6 will take the feat anyway, so this is just delaying the inevitable. And then there's the idea that on a closer inspection, Mindsight gives almost the same effect as two rounds of Detect Thoughts. Although the Detect Surface Thoughts alternative seems more balanced... how's this sound: 2 rounds at 2nd level, then 1 round at 3rd, full-round at 4th, and standard at 5th?

Yea, they'll want the feat, but giving a free feat because they'll take it any way is somewhat of a weak idea. If you feel like adding the feat, I'd say 3rd level and lose the casting progression for that level as well.

This is based off the Mind Probe spell (as the name suggests), weaker in that you can't spam attempt it on Will passers, but stronger in that it is spammable against Will failures (i.e. they're basically info-dumps). I'm not really sold on 24 hours as it seems too long, but 1 hour is too much I suppose... I'd probably change this to 8 hours.

Yea, 24 hours is kinda long, but it's the standard for most SRD stuff. 8 is fine with me.

As for basing it of the spell, than they should be fully aware of the probing. Also, note that you are basically giving a 5th level spell at will (a bit around the corner, but it is more or less at will), for a warlock this would probably be a dark invocation (16th level minimum).

So at least make them notice (or give the chance to notice) and maybe restrict it in some other way. (Also, how many questions can you ask to a single individual? Do they get a new saving throw after X questions? etc etc).

I dunno. The Dread Witch's main schtick is fear effects (a wide repertoire) and they get the "no immune" clause, and the Mindspy is far more restricted with what gets affected (basically 3-5 class features), so I think this is not too unbalancing.

Yea, but fear can ruin a battle, while mind affecting (even just reading) can ruin campaigns. Having all villains be trained monks who can avoid thinking of the big lie, the big bad, the big secret etc... will get tiresome after a little while.

Maybe do something like give them +X to their saving throws instead of immunity? And a tiny (if any) chance to break specific defense spells?

I'd probably go with the mid-point (as I already nerfed the available class the gets progression, as a sort of drawback), although our ideas of what constitute the middle might differ.:smalltongue:

Yea, probably the best idea (though some things can still use something of a drawback... Maybe keep the quickened mind reading, but having X steps less fast when affecting multiple characters? and some minuses to certain abilities when (not) using your mind reading?)

And I still feel that all caster classes should be able to progress, as it seems arbitrary in game wise (good reason game balancing, maybe, but no good reason in game). And if you really wish to keep it limited, maybe also restrict access to the class in general to avoid those DM/Player arguments?

Quite curious to see how this turns out :D

ben-zayb

2014-05-10, 01:02 PM

While I can agree with your idea here, I'd at least still allow the sorcerer access to the class (he'd be spending one of his rather restricted spells to get in).

Fully agree with leaving the first level without progression. I'd suggest adding another progresion-less level at 5th (to compensate for the immunity busting).

As for delaying detect thoughts at will... Good idea, maybe give some X uses per day (1 per level?) at the earlier levels?Now becomes once per encounter per Mindspy Level, which isn't that bad. At wills pushed higher up to 5th to give more capstone benefits.

Finally for the "as helm of telepathy", it only gives telepathic communication to those whose surface thoughts your reading. Currently you are giving him telepathy for the entire sphere, not just the ones he's reading.

Finally, the range is really massive... Maybe do 60/70/80/90/100 (starting at the range of detect thoughts and maxing at the normal telepathy range).Hmm... that works too, actually better.

Yea, they'll want the feat, but giving a free feat because they'll take it any way is somewhat of a weak idea. If you feel like adding the feat, I'd say 3rd level and lose the casting progression for that level as well. This I disagree with, since I'll personally not pay one caster progression for a feat that I can easily get.

Yea, 24 hours is kinda long, but it's the standard for most SRD stuff. 8 is fine with me.

As for basing it of the spell, than they should be fully aware of the probing. Also, note that you are basically giving a 5th level spell at will (a bit around the corner, but it is more or less at will), for a warlock this would probably be a dark invocation (16th level minimum).

So at least make them notice (or give the chance to notice) and maybe restrict it in some other way. (Also, how many questions can you ask to a single individual? Do they get a new saving throw after X questions? etc etc).They are now aware, unless they really messed up with their save. As written, it's one Full-Round action per one question. But saving only once gives a creature a free pass for 8 hours so unlike most Dark Invocations this isn't as spammable in combat.

Yea, but fear can ruin a battle, while mind affecting (even just reading) can ruin campaigns. Having all villains be trained monks who can avoid thinking of the big lie, the big bad, the big secret etc... will get tiresome after a little while.

Maybe do something like give them +X to their saving throws instead of immunity? And a tiny (if any) chance to break specific defense spells?Opposed CL/ML/HD checks seem to be nice. So BBEGs themselves will usually ignore this, while mooks, who are the usual target of interrogation anyway, will likely get bypassed.

Yea, probably the best idea (though some things can still use something of a drawback... Maybe keep the quickened mind reading, but having X steps less fast when affecting multiple characters? and some minuses to certain abilities when (not) using your mind reading?)

And I still feel that all caster classes should be able to progress, as it seems arbitrary in game wise (good reason game balancing, maybe, but no good reason in game). And if you really wish to keep it limited, maybe also restrict access to the class in general to avoid those DM/Player arguments?

Quite curious to see how this turns out :DI've decided to keep it T1/T2-caster free instead, except Psionics get a free pass since their power list are far less broken and they're "mind" fluffed anyway. Simultaneous mind reading is still retained since I scaled down the Accelerated Scan, at least until level 5.

Other than that, I don't really think the class is overpowered at all. To be honest, with the fix, I can see few people (that I play with, at least) choose this over better Beguiler PrCs such Unseen Seer, Divine Oracle, and Shadowcraft Mage (even the unbroken version), as well as better Bard-related/progressing PrCs. So this would probably better suited for Psionic Base Classes (and do notice that only Telepaths will get here by level 5. Other Psions and Psi-Warriors will need to burn a feat in Expanded Knowledge and wait til level 6 or 8 to jump here).

EDIT: Also added some Read Thoughts - based abilities for the psionic cases. Although everyone will be able to use Detect/Read thoughts anyway.

ben-zayb

2014-05-17, 07:18 PM

Alright, after a week I decided to make some changes to smoothen up the Mindspy's class features:

Spellcasting/Manifesting: The progression is now semi-friendly to all sorts of casters and manifesters, because why not? The primary issue with the class seems to be its lack of casting progression in the first place.

Anticipate: I forgot to include the bonus to Attack rolls from the original class, so that's now included. Additionally, as the class intended, it now automatically works against creatures who surface thoughts are already detected by the Mindspy instead of just any one creature/class level, which is situationally limited.

Combat Telepathy: Restored to its former mechanics, but also gives free Detect Thoughts and Read Thoughts per class level per encounter (which in D&D will usually be... yep. Combat.)

Mindsight: ...or lack thereof, because it majorly overlaps with the reworded Accelerated Mindscan anyway. Those who still want Mindsight can still take it as usual, using Thoughtprobe as a Telepathy class feature.

Accelerated Mindscan: Mechanics are reworded to reduce rounds needed, which will be useful for Detect Thoughts' Heightened Probe extra 4th round ability. The way it's currently worded makes it almost similar in function to the Faster Mindscan feature, as well as Instant Mindscan (albeit a level earlier). While this first part attempts to bridge the gap between Detect and Read Thoughts, the second part of the ability gives Read Thoughts a speed bump for near-Instant Mindscanning, to give the two abilities unique uses by 4th level: Detect for deeper memory probing and Read for instant and LoE-breaking thought detection.

Thoughtscour: Same as before in that it improved the rate of information flow, except it also improves Read Thoughts' coverage.

Heightened Probe: Mechanics are reworded, such that Detect Thoughts will give you Mind-Probe-lite (one question answered per casting). Additionally, it also improves Read Thoughts in a different direction, which is the aforementioned improved LoE-breaking capability.

Mindseeker: Mechanics are reworded such that neither the Mindspy nor his opponent can't use CL-bumping tricks on the opposed check. Good against mooks, but bad against bosses (with their usually higher CL/ML and the Mindspy's first level CL loss.)

The floor is once again open...
PEACH away! (emphasis on the P). PEACH exchanges are also welcome.

:smallcool:

Reality Glitch

2014-05-31, 02:48 PM

I'm not familiar w/ the original, but given my paranoia about invasion of privacy, the class here is appropriately creepy.

I did notice that by the time you get the "4th round" bonus effect to Detect Thoughts, you already get it at the 1st round, and then instantly at 5th level, I assume that was intentional.

ben-zayb

2014-05-31, 10:17 PM

I'm not familiar w/ the original, but given my paranoia about invasion of privacy, the class here is appropriately creepy.

I did notice that by the time you get the "4th round" bonus effect to Detect Thoughts, you already get it at the 1st round, and then instantly at 5th level, I assume that was intentional.Exactly. And I'm glad it incites some sort of paranoia, as the idea is that some mindspies do prey on mental vulnerabilities or weak wills.

Tempestfury

2014-06-01, 03:04 PM

A strong, thematically class. Mainly focused on gathering information though read and detect thoughts, this class excels in that regard, but isn't limited to that alone. The telepathy opens up the ability to Mindsight, which to some might be overpowered, but with homebrew, there's other ways of getting it or similar *cough*Zenblade'stouchsight*cough*. Then anticipation class feature is fantastic as well, because it works so well thematically, AND it gives you a bonus to more than just gathering information.

All in all, a solid, thematic class.

ben-zayb

2014-06-01, 05:40 PM

A strong, thematically class. Mainly focused on gathering information though read and detect thoughts, this class excels in that regard, but isn't limited to that alone. The telepathy opens up the ability to Mindsight, which to some might be overpowered, but with homebrew, there's other ways of getting it or similar *cough*Zenblade'stouchsight*cough*. Then anticipation class feature is fantastic as well, because it works so well thematically, AND it gives you a bonus to more than just gathering information.

All in all, a solid, thematic class.Thanks for sharing your insights! I appreciate your analysis: clearly well thought-out and very informative as expected!

Tempestfury

2014-06-01, 05:41 PM

Thank you very much, though I'm sorry I couldn't offer anyway to improve it.

JeminiZero

2014-06-12, 05:07 AM

OK, lets see what we have here...

Anticipate: The flavor of the power leads me to believe that it should stop working on creatures, after you stop detecting/reading their thoughts. But that probably makes it too weak.

Thoughtscour: needs a bit of clarification.

Starting at 3rd level, a Mindspy can simultaneously detect the surface thoughts from a number of creatures up to her Mindspy level. Once per round as a free action, she can choose new minds to listen in on. At 5th level, this amount increases by up to her spellcasting/manifesting ability modifier (Int, Wis, or Cha only).

Can be intepreted as 5th level LIMITING the number of creatures by spellcasting/manifesting ability modifier. What I *think* you mean is:

At 5th level, a Mindspy can simultaneously detect the surface thoughts from a number of creatures equal to her Mindspy level plus her spellcasting/manifesting ability modifier (Int, Wis, or Cha only).

Combat Telepathy: "Per Encounter" is an ill-defined thing, and may lead to arguments at the table. For example, you go up to the Chancellor just outside the door, and read his mind. Then he shows you into the throneroom to meet his king. Does that count as a seperate encounter? What if the Chancellor met you at the castle gates, and it was quite a walk up to the throneroom? What if you stopped by at the loo along the way? Perhaps rephrase as:

A Mindspy gains Detect Thoughts and Read Thoughts as a Supernatural Abilities, each usable once per day per Mindspy level. However, you can recover these uses simply by meditating for 5 minutes. This lets you use them at each encounter, provided you have some time to rest in between. The caster/manifester level is equal to her normal caster level for Detect Thoughts or Read Thoughts.

Heightened Probe: Needs clarification for Detect Thoughts. Specifically, can you ask one question at the 4th round and no more, or one question with each round of concentration beyond 4th?

ben-zayb

2014-06-12, 07:24 AM

Anticipate: The flavor of the power leads me to believe that it should stop working on creatures, after you stop detecting/reading their thoughts.Clarified that it only affects non-mindless creatures within range of Detect/Read Thoughts.
Thoughtscour: needs a bit of clarification.

Can be intepreted as 5th level LIMITING the number of creatures by spellcasting/manifesting ability modifier. What I *think* you mean is:That's a far better way to phrase it. Reworded Thoughtscour!:smallwink:
Combat Telepathy: "Per Encounter" is an ill-defined thing, and may lead to arguments at the table. For example, you go up to the Chancellor just outside the door, and read his mind. Then he shows you into the throneroom to meet his king. Does that count as a seperate encounter? What if the Chancellor met you at the castle gates, and it was quite a walk up to the throneroom? What if you stopped by at the loo along the way? Perhaps rephrase as: While "encounter" is already a widely used (despite vague) term in 3.5, I like this more clearly defined mechanics better. Reworded Combat Telepathy!

Heightened Probe: Needs clarification for Detect Thoughts. Specifically, can you ask one question at the 4th round and no more, or one question with each round of concentration beyond 4th?The intent was one question per creature affected per casting. I clarified that bit now.

NeoSeraphi

2014-06-17, 05:48 PM

I don't remember the actual mindspy prestige class from 3.5 off the top of my head but I felt like it was originally intended for dopplegangers, so I guess that's why the class seems so...one-dimensional.

Don't get me wrong, I like that you have all these cool abilities for enhancing the mindspy's ability to read thoughts and speak to others, but...that's all you offer. This essentially translates to five dead levels in terms of combat ability and non-mental bonuses. The only bonuses you really give to combat are the ability to keep up your detect thoughts and a bonus to your AC.

Here's what I'd do to try and patch this up:

Mental Distress (Su): As a swift action, the mindspy may reveal a dark secret of a creature whose mind you have read successfully. In order to uncover these dark secrets, one additional round of concentration is needed beyond surface thoughts. If the creature can see and hear the mindspy and is able to understand the language she reveals the secret in, it will attempt to stop her by shouting or making some form of distraction. The creature must make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 the mindspy's character level+ the mindspy's Charisma modifier) or provoke an attack of opportunity from all hostile creatures that threaten it as it tries to silence the mindspy. Once affected by this ability, a creature is immune to Mental Distress for 24 hours.

Just Out of Sight (Su): A mindspy can not only read someone's mind but can even adjust the way they process information. By concentrating on a creature whose mind the mindspy is reading as a swift action, the mindspy may attempt to create a blindspot in the creature's vision, a small patch that the creature cannot truly "see" but whose mind will fill in with background images. (Just got done taking Intro to Psychology, love this stuff). The creature makes a Will Save (DC 10+1/2 the mindspy's character level + the mindspy's Charisma modifier) or becomes unable to see the mindspy for 1 round. The mindspy also gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Move Silently checks made against that creature for 1 round. Whether the ability succeeds or fails, the mindspy cannot use Just Out of Sight on the same creature again for 24 hours.

ben-zayb

2014-06-18, 10:37 PM

I don't remember the actual mindspy prestige class from 3.5 off the top of my head but I felt like it was originally intended for dopplegangers, so I guess that's why the class seems so...one-dimensional.

Don't get me wrong, I like that you have all these cool abilities for enhancing the mindspy's ability to read thoughts and speak to others, but...that's all you offer. This essentially translates to five dead levels in terms of combat ability and non-mental bonuses. The only bonuses you really give to combat are the ability to keep up your detect thoughts and a bonus to your AC.I'm not sure I follow. Anticipate gives half-Stat to AC and attacks at 1st level (around +2 for an Int 18), and Stat to AC and attacks at 5th level (around +10 for an Int 30). IMO, the class as a whole practically is an improved Mindsight, which is very useful for scouting and detecting opposition in combat. I think those are plenty enough, considering this class isn't a combat-focused class anyway and is definitely not a skill/gish class: something which can be said for a big majority of spellcasting classes).

Think of this as something a caster or manifester would roll specially for a political, stealth, or mystery game. (such as this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352919-Purple-Blood-of-the-Nobilitas-looking-for-players-3-5) game, where this brew was requested (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17552936&postcount=14))

Here's what I'd do to try and patch this up:

Mental Distress (Su): As a swift action, the mindspy may reveal a dark secret of a creature whose mind you have read successfully. In order to uncover these dark secrets, one additional round of concentration is needed beyond surface thoughts. If the creature can see and hear the mindspy and is able to understand the language she reveals the secret in, it will attempt to stop her by shouting or making some form of distraction. The creature must make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 the mindspy's character level+ the mindspy's Charisma modifier) or provoke an attack of opportunity from all hostile creatures that threaten it as it tries to silence the mindspy. Once affected by this ability, a creature is immune to Mental Distress for 24 hours.So sort of like voices-in-my-head type of distraction? I like this! I'll try to see where and how I'll fit this (or something like this in theme) in the class.

Just Out of Sight (Su): A mindspy can not only read someone's mind but can even adjust the way they process information. By concentrating on a creature whose mind the mindspy is reading as a swift action, the mindspy may attempt to create a blindspot in the creature's vision, a small patch that the creature cannot truly "see" but whose mind will fill in with background images. (Just got done taking Intro to Psychology, love this stuff). The creature makes a Will Save (DC 10+1/2 the mindspy's character level + the mindspy's Charisma modifier) or becomes unable to see the mindspy for 1 round. The mindspy also gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Move Silently checks made against that creature for 1 round. Whether the ability succeeds or fails, the mindspy cannot use Just Out of Sight on the same creature again for 24 hours.Ooh... nice. I get a Cloud Mind vibe from this, although the 1/day/creature limit reminds me of why I think the Hexblade's Curse needs to be fixed (i.e. Curse use is only expended if successful, instead of being the fire-and-forget variety). I'd think of how to add a capstone ability like this, but less limited to 1/day. Thoughts on this?