I saw your post on AZ and since I don’t post there I figured I’d address it here. Sadly the cue market in the US is dead, right now the Asian market is driving the SW prices and although JF era cues used to command a premium the tide has turned. Now New cues are the ones in demand, they also love the dark nosed cues and that’s why the ebony and rosewood fronts were in such demand. The reason (a shock to no one) that they now want the new cues is because of the ability to trace the cue and authenticate them. To many scum bag cue assholes sold fakes as JF cues. It’s a shitty industry and when there is a way that people can scam they find a way to bang out the fakes and screw people.

So I don’t know if you really want to sell the cue or just wanted the much needed attention, but there’s your answer as to why the new cues are going past the older ones. For me it’s a great cue and you can’t go wrong, but you may have missed the window for the top of the JF market.

Jim <~~~~ knows nothing...

_________________ I am in a very very small group of people that can buy any cue they want that can make that statement.Congrats,Nick Serdula

I agree it's the time to buy, but not if you're thinking it's going to go up in value, buy because you love the cue and want it.

I believe the market isn't coming back unless something happens to change things, like a pool boom or some rejuvination of the game, and if that happens there is no way to say which cues will be in demand. I think you know that when talking collectibles they go up in value when people who couldn't afford them when they were young come up and make the money to be able to afford them later in life.

The dark nose SW boom is strictly based on the asian market, the new cues are hot now because they have the serial numbers to be able to weed out the fake cues that scumbag pool people are trying to pass off as real JF cues. It's sad to be a part of an industry that has done this for years.

Jim<------Seen it for years

_________________ I am in a very very small group of people that can buy any cue they want that can make that statement.Congrats,Nick Serdula

I posted to his question about his Franklin SW, and he responded as if I gave advice on a brand-new SW. I have no idea what his agenda is, but I suspect the cue will show up for sale soon.

Skins is all over the board in his posting, but he is intelligent and entertaining.

Yes, the market has gone to hell. Buy low, sell high. This is the time to buy your dream cue on the secondary market. I think they can only go up.

While I normally agree with you, I'm not sure I'd call Skins "Intelligent" in his posting. He reminds me of Kickin' Chicken (only with nicer cues) or that guy Monstermash in that he posts only to see how many people will chime in saying "I agree with you Tim! You're so right! You're super smart." Should anyone disagree with him he acts like a small child who has yet to learn that... you're not always going to be right and that opinions and facts are not the same thing.

I agree it's the time to buy, but not if you're thinking it's going to go up in value, buy because you love the cue and want it.

Great advice for any purchase.

JimBo wrote:

I believe the market isn't coming back unless something happens to change things, like a pool boom or some rejuvination of the game, and if that happens there is no way to say which cues will be in demand. I think you know that when talking collectibles they go up in value when people who couldn't afford them when they were young come up and make the money to be able to afford them later in life.

In 1999, I purchased a Harley-Davidson. Everybody I knew who owned one told me that I couldn’t lose money because used bikes were selling for more than new, dealers had waiting lists for new bikes, and people were paying a premium to get one. I recently sold that bike in excellent condition with fairly low mileage for a lot less than I paid. There is a similarly aged block of men who always wanted to own one and who, as they got older, were able to fulfill that dream. After all of them bought theirs, the demand subsided. The used market is now flooded and Harleys are not the choice of younger riders. From my observation, the same advancing age group of older men who wanted Harley-Davidsons also wanted to own custom pool cues.

The primary reason the cue market is "soft" is because of the federal Elephant Ivory ban. What's that, you say "I'm a cuemaker and I never used Ivory in MY cues"? Yeah? Well, instead of making this about YOU, consider how the erstwhile-booming cue market in this country (and internationally) developed on the heels of "The Color of Money" - COLLECTING. Rich guys started collecting super-high-end cues, well-off to average guys collected lesser-but-still-expensive cues, and dealers / brokers rose up to address / milk that burgeoning market. No matter WHAT cue you bought, there would always be someone somewhere who would give you more than you paid for it.

But now, beginning around 2014, we suddenly have thousands of collectors (big and small) who realize they're sitting on cue collections with LOTS of Ivory in them that have been rendered WORTHLESS by our dear old Uncle Sam. Forget about losing a little money on a sale, you can do 5 years and pay thousands in fines for selling a plain-Jane Balabuska just 'cause it has Ivory ferrules(!)

When most of what you bought as an investment is suddenly - and unconstitutionally, BTW - rendered worthless (overnight) you become VERY unlikely to sink any more money into that particular "investment". Multiply that by thousands of collectors (again, big AND small), and you suddenly have a GREAT demonstration of how "trickle-down economics" REALLY works. People still love to play pool, and everyone still wants to own their own pool cue, but collecting for most has been reduced to a warm-though-distant memory - along with the cue market in general.

Except for me, of course. I still sell everything I can make. So those of you who have been losing sleep over how I'm doing can rest easy.

I agree it's the time to buy, but not if you're thinking it's going to go up in value, buy because you love the cue and want it.

I'm buying now because I think the cues I'm buying are unlikely to go DOWN in value...AND because I love and want the cues. Lots of times I buy a cue because I've never handled/played with a cue by that maker, and I want to try it out. Odds are I will sell it at some point. If not, great. If I bought a Gus a few years ago for $10K and needed to sell it today, I would be crying. But if I bought one today I would only be crying because I had to sell it, not because I lost $2-3 grand.

The primary reason the cue market is "soft" is because of the federal Elephant Ivory ban. What's that, you say "I'm a cuemaker and I never used Ivory in MY cues"? Yeah? Well, instead of making this about YOU, consider how the erstwhile-booming cue market in this country (and internationally) developed on the heels of "The Color of Money" - COLLECTING. Rich guys started collecting super-high-end cues, well-off to average guys collected lesser-but-still-expensive cues, and dealers / brokers rose up to address / milk that burgeoning market. No matter WHAT cue you bought, there would always be someone somewhere who would give you more than you paid for it.

But now, beginning around 2014, we suddenly have thousands of collectors (big and small) who realize they're sitting on cue collections with LOTS of Ivory in them that have been rendered WORTHLESS by our dear old Uncle Sam. Forget about losing a little money on a sale, you can do 5 years and pay thousands in fines for selling a plain-Jane Balabuska just 'cause it has Ivory ferrules(!)

When most of what you bought as an investment is suddenly - and unconstitutionally, BTW - rendered worthless (overnight) you become VERY unlikely to sink any more money into that particular "investment". Multiply that by thousands of collectors (again, big AND small), and you suddenly have a GREAT demonstration of how "trickle-down economics" REALLY works. People still love to play pool, and everyone still wants to own their own pool cue, but collecting for most has been reduced to a warm-though-distant memory - along with the cue market in general.

Except for me, of course. I still sell everything I can make. So those of you who have been losing sleep over how I'm doing can rest easy.

TW

Great post. It will be weird tonight when my girlfriend asks me if my insomnia is still bothering me, and I have to tell her I'll be okay because of Thomas Wayne.

The ivory ban especially sucks if you are in California or Washington state <=== me. I generally only buy antique cues, so the Federal laws aren't killing me (they cover interstate transactions); however, the state of Washington will reem me for selling ANY ivory (except pianos - Washington State legislators are incredible hypocrites) within the state of Washington. Even advertising an ivory cue can result in the assumption that I might sell it within Washington state, which is grounds for arrest. Only way around it is to put antique ivory cues up for sale and state that I will not sell to Washington residents. Curiously, any antique ivory cues can be sold between California and Washington state, legally. Kind of like moving marijuana between Oregon and Washington State - legal in each state, but the feds can get you if you cross that state line with it.

While I normally agree with you, I'm not sure I'd call Skins "Intelligent" in his posting. He reminds me of Kickin' Chicken (only with nicer cues) or that guy Monstermash in that he posts only to see how many people will chime in saying "I agree with you Tim! You're so right! You're super smart." Should anyone disagree with him he acts like a small child who has yet to learn that... you're not always going to be right and that opinions and facts are not the same thing.

I have exchanged PM's with Skins. He's intelligent, just a wildman behind the keyboard. Others could be idiots in real life as well, but it might just be drugs and alcohol.

The primary reason the cue market is "soft" is because of the federal Elephant Ivory ban. ...

TW

Interesting, I never thought of that. I think the market would be soft anyway for the same reasons so may pool rooms have closed, no new pool players and loss of old players. However, your explanation opens my eyes to a whole new aspect of it.

_________________Real name: Steve Ellis.Email: jimboArmyMember<at sign>s-c-ellis.comBetter to wear out, than to rust out."To die is nothing, but it is terrible not to live." Victor Hugo-Les Miserables

Sorry I didn't see this earlier Jimbo (Merry Christmas and Happy New Year by the way!!)... Thanks for your and everyone elses thoughts. I only asked because I had this feeling that the older cues were loosing their mystique so I wanted to get some collectors thoughts. I recently was offered a very good $ amount but turned it down because I really wasn't looking to sell. I'm still not looking to sell the cue so NO you won't be seeing it for sale any time soon baring something catastrophic occurring.

:Scott: I thought you were including new with old in your post that is why I responded the way I did.. Sorry if you were offended.

Thanks for all the thoughts and as to the other comments I'll just have a chuckle and enjoy the new year!

Skins, not offended, just confused. But your thread and Jim's initial post in this thread led me to acquire a post-Franklin SW, so knowledge was imparted and led to a good outcome. I had only owned Franklin-era SW's (four of them) and didn't get the premium on the new ones. It still seems stupid to me, but I don't get to define reality;besides, this one feels just like those old ones and I like the results.

Skins, not offended, just confused. But your thread and Jim's initial post in this thread led me to acquire a post-Franklin SW, so knowledge was imparted and led to a good outcome. I had only owned Franklin-era SW's (four of them) and didn't get the premium on the new ones. It still seems stupid to me, but I don't get to define reality;besides, this one feels just like those old ones and I like the results.

I think if I were to buy a post JF cue I would prefer to build one from scratch... A cool side story about the cue I have now is that I used to work at the Board of Trade in Chicago from 86' to 90' and John Wright also worked there for a grain dealer. We would cross paths frequently in the atrium and more times than not he would be carrying a 12 cue O'neil dealer case loaded with beautiful cues. One day in 87' he was showing me some gorgeous SW's and Kersenbrock's and I there was one I just had to have. Ebont nose, Rosewood points (3 high 3 low) with a single green veneer, Rosewood sleeve and Ebony "cap", black phenolic rings with green dashes which were the joint collar rings as well. Absolutely beautiful. I bought it for $375!!!....Well I sold that cue 6 months later for $325. ...Since then I've always wanted that cue back (still searching) so when I saw the cue I have now come up for sale I thought it may pacify my anguish so I jumped on it. The cool part is, I found out though advertised as an 85', when it arrived it's LOA from Laurie said it was built in 87'. Subsequently I found out that early on it was common place for the SW shop to build cues with similar forarm base and veneer colors at the same time. I was told the cue I have now had a better than average chance to have been built in the same batch as my cue I bought from John. Now THATS a cool coincidence....

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