Many historians have acknowledged the Catholic Church was an unflinching foe of global Communism and instrumental in its final downfall. President Raegan as well as Premier Gorbachev credited Pope John Paul II. In Poland, the Communists were aghast when more than a million people took to the street chanting "WE WANT GOD! WE WANT GOD! WE WANT GOD!" (See Source). Of course, in Russia itself, we credit the good Orthodox Priests who resisted the godless regime. To me, this is a testament of what Catholics and Orthodox can accomplish if we work together. The world needs the witness of an undivided, universal Church in both East and West! Do you believe Christianity played an important role in the downfall of Communism? http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2014/25-years-after-fall-of-communism-some-still-don-t-recognize-church-role.cfm

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"These events didn't not fall from the sky or happen by themselves," Cardinal Duka told those at the Prague Mass.

"Our devotion and loyalty must turn to those who fought and died for our country's freedom -- including the generation who, 25 years ago, with youthful hope in the future, risked death by raising our flag."

The church leader had good reason to pay tribute to Catholics.

In what was then Czechoslovakia, the church spawned a network of underground groups that became a mass opposition movement in the 1980s with the explicit backing of then-Cardinal Frantisek Tomasek.

Practicing Catholics such as Vaclav Benda and Dana Nemcova played key roles in the Charter 77 human rights movement and helped forge common values and aims with liberal and ex-Marxist dissidents. So did influential priests such as Jesuit Fathers Josef Zverina and Frantisek Lizna.

Vaclav Maly, now auxiliary bishop of Prague, was jailed and beaten as a dissident and sat at the side of future President Vaclav Havel in final talks with the communist regime.

The Catholic Church played a major role elsewhere, too ... It was in Poland that the church's contribution proved most decisive, in helping sustain pressure for human rights and legality when the Solidarity labor union was crushed under martial law in December 1981.

As the only independent nationwide organization, the church offered sanctuary to a host of groups, publications and initiatives.

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"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Mass casualties were experienced by the autocephalous Orthodox Churches of Russia, Armenia, Romania, Albania, Georgia, Bulgaria, Poland, Serbia, and what became the autocephalous church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia experienced under communism. Indeed the Albanian Orthodox Church in their own country experienced the mass murder of nearly every priest who did not emigrate under the barbaric regime of Enver Hoxha.

In like manner, the Roman Church faced substantial persecution in Poland, the former Czechoslovakia, the Ukraine, and elsewhere.

Now, the content of your post is agreeably ecumenical, but I do have to admit taking exception to the title, which seems to me to convey the impression that the Roman Catholics ridded us from the Communists on their own initiative and by their own merits, which would of course be a gross distortion. Pope John Paul II is one of a large number of religious leaders who successfully agitated against communism and contributed to its eventual downfall; one would also have to cite the Dalai Lama and of course our own indomitable St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco

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"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction. I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey.

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole, and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

The Roman Catholic Church was rather instrumental in making ways for Communism or generic leftism in Latin America. ISTM it's currently having quite a bad hangover, at least as far as I can tell for Brazil (where Conservative Catholicism has been having a sudden rise over the last few years) and Nicaragua (where the hierarchy has been tragically backstabbed).

« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 03:03:54 PM by RaphaCam »

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"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Marxist liberation theology, Dorthy Day, and the "Catholic workers movement" says different, plus the Church in china What did The Catholic Church go to stop fascism in Italy, Spain, Germany, and Croatia? Fascist occupation of Greece, Italian occupation of Ethiopia, Nazi invasion of Russia to murder all Orthodox Slavs, Ustasha genocide of Serbs, and forced conversions to Roman Catholicism? Stop brushing over the sins of the Ultra-montist Papacy.

Marxist liberation theology, Dorthy Day, and the "Catholic workers movement" says different, plus the Church in china What did The Catholic Church go to stop fascism in Italy, Spain, Germany, and Croatia? Fascist occupation of Greece, Italian occupation of Ethiopia, Nazi invasion of Russia to murder all Orthodox Slavs, Ustasha genocide of Serbs, and forced conversions to Roman Catholicism? Stop brushing over the sins of the Ultra-montist Papacy.

I think you may be overstating stuff here. Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker Movement are a pretty legitimate alternative to Marxism. The Papacy was openly opposed to National Socialism and Italian Fascism, although it was occasionally pusilanimous and did overlook some other atrocity.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 03:20:47 PM by RaphaCam »

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"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Many historians have acknowledged the Catholic Church was an unflinching foe of global Communism and instrumental in its final downfall. President Raegan as well as Premier Gorbachev credited Pope John Paul II.

I'm Polish, many members of my family suffed under Communism and were fighting with it, but you know.. the problem is that actually the establishment hasn't changed, so in fact, it's not victory.

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Now, the content of your post is agreeably ecumenical, but I do have to admit taking exception to the title, which seems to me to convey the impression that the Roman Catholics ridded us from the Communists on their own initiative

Apologies, Alpha. Didn't mean that. That's why I said, "in Russia itself, we credit the good Orthodox Priests who resisted the godless regime. To me, this is a testament of what Catholics and Orthodox can accomplish if we work together". But the OP is mainly talking about Catholic Poland, which the Soviets tried to turn anti-Catholic, just like the Mother of God had warned us would happen in Europe and around the world. Wiki: "From 1960, the regime increasingly implemented anti-Catholic policies, including harassment, atheistic propaganda, and measures that made carrying out religious practices more difficult.[132]" So, in Poland, I think you will agree Pope John Paul II was instrumental in driving the Communists out. Doesn't mean he was alone or there was nobody else, but Poland was a predominantly Catholic country and we had the right to oppose them.

President Raegan said, “religion might very well turn out to be the Soviets' Achilles heel." after visiting Poland. Even CBN had an article about it recently: “Through four decades of communist rule, Poland and the other captive nations of Europe endured a brutal campaign to demolish freedom, your faith, your laws, your history, your identity – indeed the very essence of your culture and your humanity,” the president said. “They must have known during that exact moment during Pope John Paul II’s sermon when a million Polish men, women and children suddenly raised their voices in a single prayer. A million Polish people did not ask for wealth. They did not ask for privilege. Instead, one million Poles sang three simple words: ‘We want God".

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I'm Polish, many members of my family suffed under Communism and were fighting with it, but you know.. the problem is that actually the establishment hasn't changed, so in fact, it's not victory.

Sorry to hear about your family's suffering, Dominika. Of course, good Catholics, Orthodox, other Christians, stood united against Communism during the many decades of red terror. However, I wouldn't say there is no victory in Poland today. Poland has almost completely outlawed abortion, after all. The Soviet union was also one of the first states to legalize abortion, in 1920. A woman MP mentioned recently the role both Hitler's thugs and also the Soviet union played in abortion in Poland during a recent debate on the issue.

Quote from: Seekeroftruth

Marxist liberation theology

Pope Pius XI presciently warned in 1937, "Communism is intrinsically wrong, and no one who would save Christian civilization may collaborate with it in any undertaking whatsoever. Those who permit themselves to be deceived into lending their aid towards the triumph of Communism in their own country, will be the first to fall victims of their error. And the greater the antiquity and grandeur of the Christian civilization in the regions where Communism successfully penetrates, so much more devastating will be the hatred displayed by the godless." There were excommunications for Communists, and any who supported it. "The Decree Against Communism was a 1949 Catholic Church document issued by the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, and approved by Pope Pius XII, which declared Catholics who professed Communist doctrine to be excommunicated as apostates from the Christian faith." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decree_against_Communism

The Papacy was the greatest foe the Communists ever had. And they knew it. They didn't want us to condemn Communism dogmatically at Vatican II, as the Traditional Fathers of that Council wanted. In order for the Orthodox to come, the condition was that no direct condemnation of Communism be given. Pope St. John XXIII also played a huge, history-defining role in averting a nuclear crisis between the US and Russia. https://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/preventing-war-pope-john-xxiii-and-the-cuban-missile-crisis It was because the spectre of nuclear war hung so heavily upon the Council that some were misled, out of a genuine desire to bring peace, to take as mild an approach as possible toward other older error as well. Nevertheless, when Pope John Paul II ascended to the Papacy, he became as tough or possibly even tougher on Communism than Pope Pius XI and Pope Pius XII were.

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"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

So, in Poland, I think you will agree Pope John Paul II was instrumental in driving the Communists out. Doesn't mean he was alone or there was nobody else, but Poland was a predominantly Catholic country and we had the right to oppose them.

It's really not so easy. It wasn't only him, really, that's the first thing. The second thing is that only after the second world Poland became predominatnly Catholic - over the centuries it had been strongly divided. And still, 90% of the population is Catholic, but the society is divided, many people have e.g Orthodox, Lutheran, Judaistic roots etc.

President Raegan said, “religion might very well turn out to be the Soviets' Achilles heel." after visiting Poland. Even CBN had an article about it recently: “Through four decades of communist rule, Poland and the other captive nations of Europe endured a brutal campaign to demolish freedom, your faith, your laws, your history, your identity – indeed the very essence of your culture and your humanity,” the president said. “They must have known during that exact moment during Pope John Paul II’s sermon when a million Polish men, women and children suddenly raised their voices in a single prayer. A million Polish people did not ask for wealth. They did not ask for privilege. Instead, one million Poles sang three simple words: ‘We want God".

Again, you have to know the context. The history, the culture.... These words are taken from this song ("My chcemy Boga") before the Częstochowa icon (venerated, as you know, by both Orthodox and Catholics, since it's an Orthodox icon that's now in a Catholic monastery):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYIyGfQ0tcU

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