Did you ever do any PvP at all from Vanilla to now? If not, no wonder you think CRZ has changed what a PvP realm is all about :S

Okay that's legitimately confusing, my apologies. What I meant was, there was some normal wpvp with near level characters that was fun, but never really ganking and absolutely never corpse farming. Wpvp died after a while but it "came back" with CRZ's but now it's all ganking all the time.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 07:00 PM ----------

Originally Posted by bungeebungee

Yep. That's just trying to figure out when you say you started and whether you rolled on a PVP realm or an 8 year old transferred his main to one. I'll forbear mentioning the amount of suspension of belief it takes to imagine an 8 year old grinding to 60 in Vanilla.

While that may be annoying to understand it is actually entirely true because I had 2 accounts in my career. First one from vanilla to bc, the next near the middle of wotlk. So I first rolled my second batch of characters on his realm when I leveled up a paladin to 70 but then never really used him. We wanted to pve in cata so I transfered my 85 shaman from a pve realm to his pvp and yeah the rest is of no importance really.

I've played on PvP servers since the beginning. I don't gank, for the most part. The reason I play on them is that constant threat and the resulting extra boost of adrenaline when I see a red name go winging overhead. I absolutely do want to be fodder. That's why I picked this server type. There are a ton of others who made a similar decision.

I can't see how this isn't a total lie, no one has fun getting corpse camped for hours then getting forced to log off, medically that would be a psychopath of sorts (definitely not calling you one at all. I think you are an upstanding young/older man.)

What is wrong with wpvp now are completely out-of-hand number growth and flying mounts everywhere, even in lowbie zones.
Players rolling on PvP server in Vanilla never expected to have as much health as 40-man raidboss 7 years later.
Level 50 vs 60 PvP was still PvP then...kind of, at least it wasn't one-shot. Today level 80 vs level 90 is... well 30k vs 400k HP, more than ten times difference. 90er oneshots 80 with ease, with no chance to escape, can gy camp and follow easily with flying mount.
Gankers usually never attack other max levels, because that's running into risk of getting pwned. They never accept that.

Only thing better today that this CRZ cesspool only excludes people from questing to be honest, you can still level decently via BGs and LFD up to pandaria zones.
Or skip cataclysm content at troggs...i hate you all. -embersilk farmer, mad at those slowpoke killers.

I can't see how this isn't a total lie, no one has fun getting corpse camped for hours then getting forced to log off, medically that would be a psychopath of sorts (definitely not calling you one at all. I think you are an upstanding young/older man.)

Because I don't LET them corpse camp me for hours.

I try and avoid them. Even if they're trying to camp you, you can rez farther away, mount up, and flee. If that's not working, I poke my guildmates, who are usually more than happy to ruin a ganker's day. If nobody else is on or they're all busy, and I seriously can't get anything done, I queue for dungeons for a bit, or play another character, or so on.

In short; I don't accept that my role is to be a victim. I try and escape, I arrange counterassaults, I find something else to do. Evading or countering those people is part of why I play on a PvP server.

I try and avoid them. Even if they're trying to camp you, you can rez farther away, mount up, and flee. If that's not working, I poke my guildmates, who are usually more than happy to ruin a ganker's day. If nobody else is on or they're all busy, and I seriously can't get anything done, I queue for dungeons for a bit, or play another character, or so on.

In short; I don't accept that my role is to be a victim. I try and escape, I arrange counterassaults, I find something else to do. Evading or countering those people is part of why I play on a PvP server.

None of the options available to you are available to a brand new player or players from the smaller faction that have now not only got to compete with the superior numbers of the opposing faction from their realm but players from other realms. All the positive points that people seem to be putting forward for the kind of PVP that has now been forced onto players is reminiscent of how we were all told that twinks want to fight each other and not one shot new players in greys.

CRZ has nothing to do with reintroducing world PVP back to WOW, it may well be a side effect, but the main reason is to give the illusion that a game that is having trouble attracting new players is not empty at low levels. You can argue all you like that this is the way that Blizzard intended PVP realms to be like but world PVP has been all but dead since TBC and any attempt to reintroduce it, Halaa, Wintergrasp, Tol Barad, have failed. Simply put the player base, as a whole, is not all that interested in world PVP. If Blizzard were unhappy with the world PVP situation they should not have waited several years and allowed players to get used to style of play they did not like.

It has now become a customer service issue and customers are telling Blizzard that they are unhappy with the current situation. I know it has been suggested that those who are not happy with the changes CRZ has brought to PVP realms should pay for a server transfer, but back in the real world when a company makes a change that has a negative impact on a customer's enjoyment of their the product the customer does not throw extra money at that company. The only two real options available to those who are unhappy is to sit tight on their server, and hope that they can either adapt to the situation or Blizzard changes their mind, or they can simply stop paying for the game. Some will chose the former, others the later. If sub numbers continue to dwindle as they did throughout Cata and they see that new player retention has not increased they will, in the same way they backtracked on hard heroics, change the way CRZ works with PVP.

None of the options available to you are available to a brand new player or players from the smaller faction that have now not only got to compete with the superior numbers of the opposing faction from their realm but players from other realms.

The only one that would be arguably out of their reach is calling on guildmembers, and really, today, you can have a guild with dozens if not hundreds of members just by asking. They may not be the best PvPers, but gankers aren't often great either.

The others are absolutely available to literally everyone.

CRZ has nothing to do with reintroducing world PVP back to WOW, it may well be a side effect, but the main reason is to give the illusion that a game that is having trouble attracting new players is not empty at low levels.[

This is kind of like how people keep claiming that Windows is "dying" because Apple's market share increased by 20% that year. Ignoring that their market share had been 3% and was now 3.5%, with Windows holding most of the rest.

WoW is wildly successful, more successful than any other western MMO several times over. It's having trouble attracting new players because it's old and most players who could be interested have already tried it. That's not a flaw or a negative, it just means it's stable.

Also; it doesn't take long to level, and the game is primarily focused on the level cap endgame. THAT is why the leveling zones are "dead"; most players hit the level cap and then keep playing and don't need to return there. Again; this is entirely natural due to the way raiding and PvP bracketing works, and isn't symptomatic of any flaw as you're claiming.

Your whole argument is predicated on gross misconceptions about the realities of a stable game population. WoW reached the point of saturation years ago. Nor is CRZ the major customer service issue you apparently think; a few people complaining on forums is not indicative of a problem, and even these threads here have been closer to 50/50 divided on the subject.

It has now become a customer service issue and customers are telling Blizzard that they are unhappy with the current situation.

People have been whining about getting ganked since WoW released, and trust me, there was FAR more QQ about it back then. There were "petition threads" reaching the post cap on the official site demanding free server transfers or silly mechanics to stop them being corpse camped. Almost every realm forum, at some point descended into a shitstorm about who ganked who and what they were going to do to each other's mothers.

If Blizzard didn't cave on it back then when you had 40 man raids sat in Blackrock Mountain saying "sorry guys, none of you are raiding tonight" and camping the place for four hours straight, they won't change it now just because people are having trouble levelling past 80. Yeah, sucks to be you if you're getting ganked but when you signed up it said "yo dis pvp server, means you is getting punched if people wanna punch you, k?" and you said "k". Your fault, deal with it.

The only one that would be arguably out of their reach is calling on guildmembers, and really, today, you can have a guild with dozens if not hundreds of members just by asking. They may not be the best PvPers, but gankers aren't often great either.

The others are absolutely available to literally everyone.

This is kind of like how people keep claiming that Windows is "dying" because Apple's market share increased by 20% that year. Ignoring that their market share had been 3% and was now 3.5%, with Windows holding most of the rest.

WoW is wildly successful, more successful than any other western MMO several times over. It's having trouble attracting new players because it's old and most players who could be interested have already tried it. That's not a flaw or a negative, it just means it's stable.

Also; it doesn't take long to level, and the game is primarily focused on the level cap endgame. THAT is why the leveling zones are "dead"; most players hit the level cap and then keep playing and don't need to return there. Again; this is entirely natural due to the way raiding and PvP bracketing works, and isn't symptomatic of any flaw as you're claiming.

Your whole argument is predicated on gross misconceptions about the realities of a stable game population. WoW reached the point of saturation years ago. Nor is CRZ the major customer service issue you apparently think; a few people complaining on forums is not indicative of a problem, and even these threads here have been closer to 50/50 divided on the subject.

Of your options that are supposedly available to all players. I'm a new player, I've reached level 10 and a level 90 swoops down on his flying mount, I'm dead before I've even had a chance to acknowledge his presence. I try to res farther away but he spots me and kills me again. I can't call on guild mates as I'm new and not yet joined a guild and plus I've followed Blizzard's advice and picked a new players server unfortunately I've not only picked a dead server but the wrong faction so there are no guilds to join anyway.

I have no idea what Windows and Apple has to do with the current thread.

WOW is successful, no one is arguing against that, and again I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread. As you said it is having trouble attracting new customers due to its age in which case you do not upset your current customers.

Your perception of long seems to differ from mine, even the quickest players are looking at 10-15 hours played to level a character from 1 to 90. The majority of players will be looking at two to three times that time. And why should they be forced to level new characters when they were perfectly happy with the characters they had prior to CRZ?

I have no idea where you get that WOW has a stable population from. In the past two years it has lost a quarter of its players and the jury is still out on whether or not MOP has made any difference. People complaining on the forums is indicative of a problem, the majority of people who are unhappy with a product or service do not leave any form feedback they just stop using that business, when you see the number of threads complaining about a feature that we have seen for CRZ then there is a problem.

Of your options that are supposedly available to all players. I'm a new player, I've reached level 10 and a level 90 swoops down on his flying mount, I'm dead before I've even had a chance to acknowledge his presence. I try to res farther away but he spots me and kills me again. I can't call on guild mates as I'm new and not yet joined a guild and plus I've followed Blizzard's advice and picked a new players server unfortunately I've not only picked a dead server but the wrong faction so there are no guilds to join anyway.

If they don't want no-holds-barred PvP, why are they picking a PvP server, again? The issue you're describing is player error in server choice, not a problem with the ruleset.

Your perception of long seems to differ from mine, even the quickest players are looking at 10-15 hours played to level a character from 1 to 90. The majority of players will be looking at two to three times that time. And why should they be forced to level new characters when they were perfectly happy with the characters they had prior to CRZ?

30-40 hours is "short". WoW is an MMO, and it's not unusual for players to play 10+ hours a week. At 10 hours a week, that's a level 90 inside a month, and then your time is spent on endgame content or leveling alts. Plenty of people, including myself, have been playing for years.

And nobody's "forcing" anyone into anything. We're talking about the consequences of player choices. Yes, there are consequences for having made a certain decision. Nobody forced you into those consequences but you.

I have no idea where you get that WOW has a stable population from. In the past two years it has lost a quarter of its players and the jury is still out on whether or not MOP has made any difference.

"Stable" in the sense that it's been around long enough that it's no longer recruiting anyone by being shiny and new, and is instead focused on managing its existing population rather than trying to attract new players. Even losing a quarter of the population does not make the population unstable.

People complaining on the forums is indicative of a problem, the majority of people who are unhappy with a product or service do not leave any form feedback they just stop using that business, when you see the number of threads complaining about a feature that we have seen for CRZ then there is a problem.

No. I've been moderating here for years. People complain about literally everything on forums. It doesn't mean there's actually a problem, and often, you'll have a thread complaining that a change isn't enough, while there's another active thread about how the same change is too much. The existence of complaints does not mean those complaints have validity.

You are level 80, Why not roll on a PVE server and then level back up to 80. if you argue the point "My friends are not here, how can I level with them? You know Cross Realm Zones work both ways, you can INVITE your friends with Real ID (Battle Tags work as well) and quest and level and go la dee daaaaah all day long.

Heirlooms are nice, but you probably have friends who are vastly more leveled, power questing is also awesome. No Heirlooms and I got to lvl 50 in a day, 80 on day 2, and 87 day 3, and 90 day 5. Its not that hard.

They can not and will not pull a certain aspect of a server based on the amount of people crying over it. I think South park put it best

IF I get offended and get the episode pulled, then another group will get offended at an episode and get it pulled, then another....and another....and another....until the Television show is no more....

IF they remove Ganking at 10+ levels below you....then people at lvl 81 will start crying....then 85.....then 87.....then 89......then 90 players with no gear....until PVP servers become PVE servers, and then the choice is gone. simple as that. YOU WILL NOT HAVE YOUR WAY.

I'm From Kil'jaeden - US A PVP server, until one day, I decided I didn't like being ganked all the time, instead of bitching and crying about it on the forums, I moved to Elune, been here ever since, and loooooved every second of it.

Except the non-smokers shouldn't have been going to a restaurant designed for smokers in the first place.

i think you have your metaphors backwards. WoW is designed for PvE gameplay, but you are saying that PvE players shouldnt play a game designed for PVP.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 01:38 AM ----------

Originally Posted by AlisonPrime

You are level 80, Why not roll on a PVE server and then level back up to 80. if you argue the point "My friends are not here, how can I level with them? You know Cross Realm Zones work both ways, you can INVITE your friends with Real ID (Battle Tags work as well) and quest and level and go la dee daaaaah all day long.

Heirlooms are nice, but you probably have friends who are vastly more leveled, power questing is also awesome. No Heirlooms and I got to lvl 50 in a day, 80 on day 2, and 87 day 3, and 90 day 5. Its not that hard.

They can not and will not pull a certain aspect of a server based on the amount of people crying over it. I think South park put it best

IF I get offended and get the episode pulled, then another group will get offended at an episode and get it pulled, then another....and another....and another....until the Television show is no more....

IF they remove Ganking at 10+ levels below you....then people at lvl 81 will start crying....then 85.....then 87.....then 89......then 90 players with no gear....until PVP servers become PVE servers, and then the choice is gone. simple as that. YOU WILL NOT HAVE YOUR WAY.

I'm From Kil'jaeden - US A PVP server, until one day, I decided I didn't like being ganked all the time, instead of bitching and crying about it on the forums, I moved to Elune, been here ever since, and loooooved every second of it.

if you CRZ with a player from a PVP rules set, you get placed in the PVP rules set. Nice Try.

i think you have your metaphors backwards. WoW is designed for PvE gameplay, but you are saying that PvE players shouldnt play a game designed for PVP.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 01:38 AM ----------

if you CRZ with a player from a PVP rules set, you get placed in the PVP rules set. Nice Try.

Actually you have it wrong there.

Yes WoW is a PvE game, no one is arguing that, but they also host 2 types of servers, PvP and PvE.

Mr Biggle runs a chain if Italian food (gene), and has smoking restuarant and non-smoking resturant. You are a non smoker, but you went to a smoking restaurant, either because your friend smokes so you have to follow them, or you just prefer the people or atmosphere there somehow. While no one there actually smoked for a while, you gotten used to it. Suddenly now the chain got more populated (due to adverts or whatever), now there are lots of smokers in the smoking restaurant, and you don't like it, who's fault?

YOURS. Just because no one smoked for a while, you cannot stop people smoking there, if suddenly the entire restaurant wanna smoke, it is in their rights. If you don't like it, YOU fuck off, YOU are the one that is in the wrong place, you can either start going to the non-smoking restaurant, or stop going to that chain full stop, no one is going to miss you. "But I came here because my friend did" and "but last time there weren't this many smokers" are not going to argue for your case, the fact that resturant stated it is for smokers, and smokers can come anytime if they wanted to, you are sod out of luck as you are the one that CHOSE to go there regardless of all these potential issue that you could have.

Also CRZ is done by server types. PvP server CRZ people with PvP servers, same for PvE and RP, the only exception is when you have Real ID someone in your group then it is the majority rule, means you (from PvE server) decided to RealID group with 4 friends from a PvP server, you will be sent to a PvP server.

As a general note: different people are wired differently. Endus has done a good job of stating what he likes about PVP and if it seems strange to someone who doesn't enjoy that, well ... I don't really get why someone would pay money to ride on rollercoasters, but they exist and are popular. Others have gone with the simple catch phrase "red is dead". That's their bag, you're the other side, the enemy, and they would kill you if you had the game's equivalent of a harp seal's charm and innocence.

Most of you are young, you may not have much experience with the wide range of behavior that people enjoy about sex, but consider that as an analogy. There are things people get into that may simply be impossible for you to understand. I don't understand ganking, then again I don't understand extremes of domination or submission, or sadism either. I don't have to understand them further than to know that some people do like them and choose, as consenting adults, to indulge in them. There are clubs out there that aren't for me. I don't go to them and they don't have to deal with a boring old man, everyone is happy.

If the comparison to sex doesn't work for you, a similar argument could be made using music or bar themes. It doesn't really matter; read the click wrap that you agree to every time you patch WoW (and you agreed to some version of it when you installed WoW). By the time you plow through all the boiler plate, you'll see that you have agreed that you have next to no rights in the game other than having paid to participate in the collective experience. Although it is part of the ESRB notice, you are warned at every log on that "Game experience may change during online play."

Blizzard doesn't owe people free transfers. One of the things transfer fees limit is the ability of a player to flit from realm to realm making trouble, they're an annoyance for a reason. As far as the actual cost of transfers, twenty-five bucks isn't a bank breaker. People play more than one toon? So do I. Right before MoP, I chose to pay to transfer nine characters to a server that I had recently started playing on again. Ironically, it is the server that I started on and I had twenty existing characters there on my old account. It was a cost/benefit issue. I wanted toons that would be ready for the new expansion. I didn't have enough time to get my old characters up to speed. Even if I'd had the time, I would have had to pay an equivalent amount (plus whatever value I place on my time) to level the old toons. That brings me back to the original point; Blizzard doesn't owe anyone free transfers. As several people have mentioned, there are a number of ways that the player can choose to solve their problem. Just like the original choice of realm, it is up to the player. Is your time worth $25 or is $25 worth your time? That's a personal call, but put on those big boy pants.

As a general note: different people are wired differently. Endus has done a good job of stating what he likes about PVP and if it seems strange to someone who doesn't enjoy that, well ... I don't really get why someone would pay money to ride on rollercoasters, but they exist and are popular. Others have gone with the simple catch phrase "red is dead". That's their bag, you're the other side, the enemy, and they would kill you if you had the game's equivalent of a harp seal's charm and innocence.

Most of you are young, you may not have much experience with the wide range of behavior that people enjoy about sex, but consider that as an analogy. There are things people get into that may simply be impossible for you to understand. I don't understand ganking, then again I don't understand extremes of domination or submission, or sadism either. I don't have to understand them further than to know that some people do like them and choose, as consenting adults, to indulge in them. There are clubs out there that aren't for me. I don't go to them and they don't have to deal with a boring old man, everyone is happy.

If the comparison to sex doesn't work for you, a similar argument could be made using music or bar themes. It doesn't really matter; read the click wrap that you agree to every time you patch WoW (and you agreed to some version of it when you installed WoW). By the time you plow through all the boiler plate, you'll see that you have agreed that you have next to no rights in the game other than having paid to participate in the collective experience. Although it is part of the ESRB notice, you are warned at every log on that "Game experience may change during online play."

Blizzard doesn't owe people free transfers. One of the things transfer fees limit is the ability of a player to flit from realm to realm making trouble, they're an annoyance for a reason. As far as the actual cost of transfers, twenty-five bucks isn't a bank breaker. People play more than one toon? So do I. Right before MoP, I chose to pay to transfer nine characters to a server that I had recently started playing on again. Ironically, it is the server that I started on and I had twenty existing characters there on my old account. It was a cost/benefit issue. I wanted toons that would be ready for the new expansion. I didn't have enough time to get my old characters up to speed. Even if I'd had the time, I would have had to pay an equivalent amount (plus whatever value I place on my time) to level the old toons. That brings me back to the original point; Blizzard doesn't owe anyone free transfers. As several people have mentioned, there are a number of ways that the player can choose to solve their problem. Just like the original choice of realm, it is up to the player. Is your time worth $25 or is $25 worth your time? That's a personal call, but put on those big boy pants.

There's always the option of RAF with a new account and getting you and your cousin up to speed on a new server, PVE. You'll prolly have to pay for the expansions again, but overall it'll probably close to the $25 transfer fee considering how cheap the games are now. That and you'd be giving your cousin a sweet new mount.