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Author
Topic: clean (Read 17541 times)

I see many ads from people saying they're "clean". I see a lot of posts from "Am I Infected" saying they're "clean" or someone was supposed to be "clean".

I'm wondering what this term is doing to us, to which extent. It seems to me that it is extremely damaging, and I'm not sure where it comes from. What can we do to stop people using "clean" to say that they're not HIV positive?

come on Matty.. i was just reacting to one of your posts where you were offended about people using this term, and I agree with you, it is offending, but where does it come from, and what can we do to stop this?

I still refer to myself as being clean. I choose to believe that being clean means I shower regularly, brush my teeth daily, and change my clothes as necessary. If others choose to believe that by saying I'm clean that I must be HIV negative, that's their problem.

Also D&D free. I see this as indicating that my social calander is free of any Dungeons and Dragons gaming with my socially awkward, overly imaginative friends. I am proudly D&D free!

Matty, yes this is this post I just read. And that's why I started this thread because this issues comes too often, and I think it's something we can talk about. That you are addressing the problem by saying it's an offense is one thing, that it's a common trend is another thing that I wish to discuss.

So if you reply to an ad that says something like "gotta be clean" then you discard HIV references and you go for it?

Sure. That's the beauty of language. If I think that being clean implies I have good personal hygeine then I admit I am clean. If someone wants to know if I have HIV, then they should ask me straight out. I'm not going to lie, of course I have HIV. I haven't lied in this situation nor have I misrepresented the truth. When people want a direct/specific answer, they need to ask a direct/specific question.

Think of it this way Milker. When you see them use that term you can scratch them off your people to do list."Clean" = narrow minded, insensitive dickhead.

hmmm is it that simple? If it was just a small number of people using that term I wouldn't care, but it seems to be somewhat a term that defines HIV positive people to a large population and I have a problem with that.

hmmm is it that simple? If it was just a small number of people using that term I wouldn't care, but it seems to be somewhat a term that defines HIV positive people to a large population and I have a problem with that.

Milker.

But it isn't just us High Fivers that get this. That terminology is hurled at people who have any form of STD.

Sure. That's the beauty of language. If I think that being clean implies I have good personal hygeine then I admit I am clean.

Well I'm French, so by definition i'm not clean.

But seriously, it is offending for most of us, and I'm wondering where this is coming from. I disagree with you, thunter. Who is defined as "not clean" because they have gonorrhea? Clean vs not clean = HIV- vs HIV+ for 99.99 of the time.

But seriously, it is offending for most of us, and I'm wondering where this is coming from. I disagree with you, thunter. Who is defined as "not clean" because they have gonorrhea? Clean vs not clean = HIV- vs HIV+ for 99.99 of the time.

Milker.

I disagree about the second part your post. I've yet to come across anyone with syph or the clap that would get a pass as "clean".

I too thought clean meant no STDs, including herpes. When I was single and negative I was worried as much about herpes as HIV. Protecting myself during sex from HIV was relatively easy compared to herpes.

When people (such as those arsehole WW's in The Other Place) use the term "clean" they mean both HIV and other STD's. I should know, I've spent the last 2+ years making the idiots each shit-sandwiches everytime they fuck up on the "clean" issue.

Courtesy - it's nicer than saying "are you an AIDS infected scumbag?" or "Are you a clap-ridden whore?" Polite people don't like to talk or think of other people as "infected". it sounds nasty. "clean" is so nice, without sounding at all offensive.

Denial - Sexual repression (and homophobia) make people squeamish about talking about sex, and HIV. If no one says the word, then it's not a problem. Asking if someone is "clean" glosses over having to think of all that nasty stuff like STDs, HIV, AIDS.

Ignorance - uneducated people are just rude without realizing it. No one asks grandma if she's "clean" of the cancer or diabetes, because that would sound ugly; and there's a greater chance that they understand issues of cancer and diabetes. To them HIV is just that scary disease they don't understand, so someone must not be "clean" if they have that disease.

I would also have to add that IMHO if someone is asking if you're "clean" they are meaning STDs AND HIV. No one is going to play 20-questions to see what you might have. It's a one-size-fits-all kind of question.

Logged

leatherman (aka mIkIE)

All the stars are flashing high above the seaand the party is on fire around you and meWe're gonna burn this disco down before the morning comes- Pet Shop Boys chart from 1992-2015Isentress/Prezcobix

When people (such as those arsehole WW's in The Other Place) use the term "clean" they mean both HIV and other STD's. I should know, I've spent the last 2+ years making the idiots each shit-sandwiches everytime they fuck up on the "clean" issue.

well this term is offensive and I'm still wondering where it comes from. in any case, what can we do so that STDs and HIV are not viewed as "dirty", or are we dirty?

well this term is offensive and I'm still wondering where it comes from. in any case, what can we do so that STDs and HIV are not viewed as "dirty", or are we dirty?

Throughout history many other illnesses have been considered dirty. (consider leprosy in biblical times with cries of "unclean") unfortunately this isn't anything new Sexual repression in society, in more modern times, makes all sexually-related diseases "dirty" to the general public.

Logged

leatherman (aka mIkIE)

All the stars are flashing high above the seaand the party is on fire around you and meWe're gonna burn this disco down before the morning comes- Pet Shop Boys chart from 1992-2015Isentress/Prezcobix

From the perspective of another culture and language - in Hong Kong we speak Cantonese (a major Chinese dialect) and since the beginning of this epidemic the word "AIDS" (Oi Zi Ban) has acquired a connotation that is much nastier and negative than "dirty". You can still hear occasionally school kids saying things like "don't touch me, you have AIDS" on buses, etc while horsing around.

So in a way just by plainly saying that "someone has AIDS" is already considered such a damnation. For years the public health sector has tried to educate people by adopting Chinese terms like "HIV patients", "virus carrier" (a very common a neutral term that covers other diseases like hepatitis, etc). Of course these efforts are mostly in vein.

... in any case, what can we do so that STDs and HIV are not viewed as "dirty", or are we dirty?

Milker.

This has been a frustration in existence longer than your lifetime, milker of men.People love to make judgements and the language reflects it. In the next decade there will be another term or demeaning phrase to reference 'dirty' from 'non-dirty' which will replace 'clean'. I bet ya I'm spot-on.xxx,Mike

If someone asked me if I was "clean" and I said "why yes, I thoroughly clean myself every day" and they said "no, I mean clap, HIV etc" I would just chalk it up to someone I don't want to hang around. Then I would look at them like I didn't know what they were talking about and smack the piss out of them.

Logged

I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Clean just means able to pass a test, as in a drug test came back clean. In this case, there were no drugs listed that the person tested positive for. As to STD's, I think it's silly.

What are we expected to say "no, I'm quite dirty. I've got herpes and warts" (I don't have those, by the way; I'm clean ). I generally use it to mean is one clean (enough) for sex.... as in who's gonna be the bitch and whose gonna be the man! Seriously, I've been asked that before, when I was negative. I always answered "I took a shower this morning, but I probably should freshen up some", etc. I don't take it offensively at all. I don't think people generally mean it to be offensive. I think it's just their attempt to stay away from some of the nasties!

But it isn't just us High Fivers that get this. That terminology is hurled at people who have any form of STD.

Show me a sexually active gay man who hasn't had an STD and I'll show you...umm I don't know what

Whenever I see that term "clean" it reminds me off this little nelly I hooked up with back in my neg days. I'm all for safe sex but this little queen kept asking this so obsessively before we even touched, I was sure he was going to try an mount me right then and there! But it was all the twit could do to bring himself to lick my nipple, all the while fretting about being "clean". That's as far as that encounter went.

I'm not sure what this nagging is about, today, Matty. But to answer your question, I didn't know where the term "clean" came from and yes, now I know. I don't think I see another response to "yes, I have showered" so far to counter the "are you clean". Hal, yes, I remember telling a person that had this word in an ad that it was offending and basically the answer was to go fuck myself, which I did since I didn't really know how handle it. Hence the original question, is it yet another HIV stigma that we have to live with, or is there something simple we can do to stop people using this word.

Now if this thread is going to be a bullying thread, I see no point in continuing the conversation, so let me know.

All we really can do is try to educate people as to why this term is offensive and unacceptable. If they say "fuck off", that's their problem, not mine. I would walk away from someone with that attitude.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Hal, yes, I remember telling a person that had this word in an ad that it was offending and basically the answer was to go fuck myself, which I did since I didn't really know how handle it.

Milker.

Don't be so sensitive, my response was directed at no one. I was making a comment about online hookups and the irony involved. Piss, shit, fisting etc, and I'm worried about someone asking if I am clean? Admonish the worried wells because we know why they are asking. Online I don't find the generic "clean" much more offensive than disease free. That's all they are asking. I still say most (including you ) won't pass up a hot fuck even if they ask if you are clean. Maybe when you're snuggling in the afterglow you might whinge and say it hurts your feelings, but not before.

I'd like to submit that perhaps if one didn't spend so much time trolling on teh intranets for cockage one might not be so affronted by indelicate language by the unwashed "clean" masses. It's not like mancunt is known for its students of Shakespeare.

Just sayin'

That said, at least you're not lying on your BigMuscle.com profile that you're HIV negative unlike someone else around here.

It's strictly from my experiences, people that tend to ask are trying to get some sort of verbal "assurance" so they can do riskier things. If they are confident that we won't be doing anything that have the sightest hint of any risk, there's no reason to ask anyway and mostly they don't. I really do think that, especially among gay guys, those who ask are in their minds doing some serosorting, which as we all know is not a good way to not get infected.

People have been using the term "clean" to mean STI-free since Hector was a pup. Well, since I was a pup anyway, and that's years before it was ever used on the internet. It's just one of those things that can only change by educating one person at a time. When we encounter it in Am I, we try to wake that person up to the fact that it's an offensive term.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

My earlier reply was specifically in reference to HIV related clean/unclean tags. But then, I wondered why milker keeps asking about the darn word, 'clean'. Having reading all the replies so far I understand now that milker, being a francophone first, is still processing some English words that can have several meanings or implications, depending on how they are use or inferred in conversations. I think an approach regarding correcting people on usage of this term has to be dealt with on an individual basis. Some are just using the term and not really meaning to be insulting. Others are. When I hear someone use or say, "I'm clean." ......I normally reference it to being drug-free. It's just the way I process it, first.