http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Acari ... al%20YearsIf you want the Truth, but refuse to investigate it because you are afraid of pain, how will you ever discover where the Truth lies? The Lord Buddha succeeded in realizing the Truth by thoroughly investigating everything, not by whining about everything like this useless monk now disgracing himself. Where did the Buddha ever state that reaching a true understanding requires moaning and groaning?

I didn’t study many books, so perhaps I missed it. Where in the suttas does it refer to moaning and groaning? If any of you who are well versed in the scriptures comes across a passage where it states that the Buddha extolled the merits of moaning and groaning, please point it out to me. Then I won’t have to teach monks to trouble themselves about investigating pain and putting up with difficulties.

You can all just moan and groan until the Truth arises to fill the whole universe. We can then witness the appearance of wise, sagacious individuals who have succeeded in reaching magga and phala by the power of their loud moans and groans. They will be in a position to question the legitimacy, and the current relevance, of the Dhamma that Lord Buddha proclaimed over 2,500 years ago.

The Dhamma of these latter-day sages will be a new, modern Dhamma whose attainment requires no troublesome investigations. All that’s required to attain magga and phala is a chorus of moaning and groaning, a method suited to an age when people prefer to seek righteous results from unrighteous causes – a pernicious attitude consuming the whole world today.

Before long there won’t be enough room on the planet to hold all these modern-day sages. I myself have an old-fashioned mentality. I trust what the Lord Buddha taught and dare not take any shortcuts. I am afraid that, as soon as I put a foot forward, I would fall flat on my face – and die there in disgrace. That would be immensely heartbreaking for me.

I need this reminder so very often. What about you? What dost thou thinkest?

Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing, it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction. What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One. If this single thing is recollected and made much, it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: PañhamavaggaVSMVMMWBBTBHTWTBTMy Page

"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html

I would posit that if one's path involves too much moaning and groaning then you are most likely not following the Buddha's instructions. The Blessed one shows in MN 12 that austerities do NOT lead to wisdom. He practiced the hard way for 6 years and it got him nowhere. This is re-iterated in MN 85 where the Buddha shows Prince Bodhi that pleasure is NOT gained through pain.

In MN 31 the Blessed one makes a point of asking Ven. Anuruddha if they are comfortable and well-fed. The Venerable replies that they are indeed comfortable and well fed. This sutta shows how the life of a forest monk should be. The Buddha doesn't prescribe starvation and discomfort anywhere in the suttas.If you are staying at a monastery where hunger is a regular problem then I would recommend going to a different monastery! I have stayed at many well supported monasteries and never suffered from bad hunger...that would be too distracting an influence on meditation and is not the path IMO.I don't see the old Thai forest tradition as being middle way at all. Show me where it says in the suttas that meditating next to a tiger is beneficial to stillness? I know of lay people who have progressed very far in the dhamma under retreat conditions...there is no requirement to go 'wrestling' cobras!

MIDDLE WAY

Last edited by mogg on Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

I agree with the sentiment about not moaning and groaning, but there can also be a lot of ego around being tough. I noticed myself moaning and groaning a lot and very recently I got to the point where I made a conscious effort to stop, because I realized how fortune I was and really had nothing to complain about. The fact that we can all study and learn the Buddha's teachings is the greatest blessing...we should all remind ourselves daily about how fortune we are!

mogg wrote:The austere photo of Ajahn Mun does not convey the Buddhas message as presented in the Nikayas. Allow me to supply some alternatives:

Do you have any photos of Ajahn Chah after he suffered a stroke?

I do in fact but that wouldn't be particularly relevant to the point I was making. The OP was using a grim photo to somewhow show that being austere and emaciated was the Buddha's teaching. My photos of Ajahn Chah were showing the correct way to approach the dhamma. The Buddha never recommended having a stroke as a core requisite of the eightfold path hence its omission in this particular discussion.

I will grant (as an aside) that the post stroke photos are powerful teaching aids too. I see them more as a teaching of the tilakkhana and a propellent for injecting energy into the path.

I don't think Ajahn Mun is austere and emaciated. He is rather "dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute — so that in no long time he would reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life" As it says in many places in the first 4 nikayas.

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared." Iti 26