22 June 2014

The Dead Conscious according to Revelation 6:9-11?

"DO THE MARTYRS UNDER THE ALTAR
DEMONSTRATE THAT THE DEAD ARE CONSCIOUS?"

Revelation 6:9-11

THE IGLESIA NI Cristo (Church
Of Christ” indeed uphold the doctrine that the dead remain unconscious, and
will not rise from the grave until the Judgment Day. However, a certain “Conley”
questioned this doctrine and trying to refute it using Revelation 6:9-11. This
is what he said:

“The
organization known as the "Iglesia Ni Cristo" claims that when the
dead await judgment, they remain unconscious. However, some narratives in the
Bible, such as the narrative of the martyrs under the altar, seem to contradict
this teaching.

“When
he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been
slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out
with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you
will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then
they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the
number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were
to be killed as they themselves had been.” (Revelation 6:9-11 ESV)

After quoting the verse, Mr.
Conley concluded that:

“Does
this passage actually teach the dead are conscious? Indeed, it does.”

He argued that Revelation 6:9-11
is “not a metaphor for something else.” He further claim that what the verse
mentioned is literal, he said, “these are actually martyrs.”

Actually, he admitted that the
Book of Revelation contains many things which are symbolic. He said:

“While
many of the things in the book of Revelation are symbolic, we have legitimate
reasons to call them symbolic as opposed to actual or visions of the actual. We
are told that martyrs cry out and are given no reason to think that a martyr is
a metaphor for something that is not a martyr or that crying out is a metaphor
for something that is not crying out. What would such things represent? The
martyrs have been treated unjustly and they yearn for God's righteous judgment.”

For him, the crying out of the
martyrs are literal because “martyrs” can cry, and that it can only be a metaphor
if the those mentioned crying out cannot cry out. He said, “crying out is a
metaphor for something that is not crying out.”

He continued answering the
argument that “an altar would not be large enough to fit that many martyrs
under (it).” We are going to leave this out because this is not our answer to
his contention. This is our answer:

INC ANSWERS:

(1) Our belief that the dead are unconscious is not our own, but the
teachings clearly written in the Bible:

“His
breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts
perish.” (Psalms 146:4 KJV)

In Young’s Literal Translation of
the Bible, this is how this verse was rendered:

“His
spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, In that day have his thoughts
perished.” (Psalms 146:4 YLT)

In Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, this is
what the Bible further tells about the dead:

“Yes,
the living know they are going to die, but the dead know nothing. They have no
further reward; they are completely forgotten. Their loves, their hates, their
passions, all died with them. They will never again take part in anything that
happens in this world.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 TEV)

(2) The teaching that the thoughts perished as a person died (the dead
is unconscious) doesn’t contradict what is written in Revelation 6:9-11, but
the wrong interpretation of what the verse says.

Because it is clearly written in
the Bible that as man dies his thoughts perishes, knows nothing, and will never
again take part in anything that happens in this world, that saying that this
teaching contradict Revelation 6:9-11 is like saying that there are
contradictions in the Bible. But no true Christians will accept that a verse of
the Bible will contradict another verse of the Bible, for the Bible says:

“For
God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the
saints.” (I Corinthians 14:33 KJV)

Actually, nothing in Revelation
6:9-11 that says that the dead still have thoughts (conscious).” This is only their
interpretation of what the verse said. And because the Bible explicitly teaches
that as man died “his thoughts perished” and he knows nothing, thus, their interpretation
or understanding of the verse is erroneous.

(3) Based on his own words, Revelation 6:9-11 is a metaphor.

Remember what he said? He said, “crying
out is a metaphor for something that is not crying out.” Based on his own
words, we conclude that Revelation 6:9-11 is a metaphor. Take note of what the
Bible says as a person dies:

“Yes,
the living know they are going to die, but the dead know nothing. They have no
further reward; they are completely forgotten. Their loves, their hates, their
passions, all died with them. They will never again take part in anything that
happens in this world.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 TEV)

The Bible explicitly says, “their
passions, all died with them.” The word “passion” means “intense emotion” as love,
joy or hatred, and “outburst of emotion” as rage, anger or cried out.

Thus, Conley’s own words got him
into trouble. He said, “crying out is a metaphor for something that is not
crying out.” The Bible testifies that dead’s passion (the intense emotion and
outburst of emotion) all died with him. Hence, Revelation 6:9-11 is a “metaphor.”

(4) Its a “cry for justice”:

The “martyrs’ cry” in Revelation
6:9-11 ("O Sovereign Lord, holy and
true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on
the earth?") is not literal but it is like the “cry of Abel’s blood:

“And
He said, ‘What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me
from the ground. So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its
mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.” (Genesis 4:10-11 NKJV)

CONCLUSION

Because Mr. Conley did not first
made a careful study of the biblical basis of the doctrines upheld by the Iglesia
Ni Cristo (Church Of Christ), thus, he was the one who end up contradicting the
Bible.

Because he ignored the teachings
of the Bible (or because of his ignorance of the teachings of the Bible), he
misunderstood or misinterpreted the biblical passage, and even end up in an embarrassing
and awkward situation that his argument was refuted by his own words.

Mr. Conley’s misinterpretation
and misunderstanding of the passages of the Bible as we have seen here, only proves
that a person will indeed end up in erroneous beliefs if he tried to understand
the Bible through his own and rejects the importance of God’s messengers. This is what Apostle Peter warned us in II
Peter 3:16:

“This
is what he says in all his letters when he writes on the subject. There are
some difficult things in his letters which ignorant and unstable people explain
falsely, as they do with other passages of the Scriptures. So they bring on
their own destruction.” (II Peter 3:16 TEV)

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