PETE LUNA HERNANDEZ INTERVIEW
Los Recuerdos Oral History Project
Interview 68-31
[BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[The date is September 13,] the year 2000. The time is 1:50. This is Delia Ceballos Munoz with Los Recuerdos del Barrio in Flagstaff, at NAU SEA.
Munoz: I'm going to have Mr. Hernandez introduce himself.
Hernandez: Pete Luna Hernandez.
Munoz: Your address?
Hernandez: My address is 424 South Leroux, in Flagstaff, Arizona.
Munoz: And your date of birth?
Hernandez: And date of birth is February 5, 1927.
Munoz: And we'll start with having you introduce your parents. And your parents' names were?
Hernandez: My dad was Pedro ________mirez Hernandez, and my mom was Dolores Luna Hernandez.
Munoz: Related to any Lunas here in Flagstaff?
Hernandez: Oh, the Lunas here in Flagstaff are my uncles, like Albert and Joe ________ and all those guys.
Munoz: I didn't know that.
Hernandez: They're from Williams. The only one, Albert was from Flagstaff, but he passed away about five years ago, or something like that.
Munoz: And your parents, where were they from?
Hernandez: They were from Santa Tecas [phonetic spelling], Mexico.
Munoz: Both of them, your mom and dad?
Hernandez: Yeah, both.
Munoz: What type [of jobs] did they have before they came to the United States, do you remember?
Hernandez: Well, let's start with my mom. My mom was a housewife, she never did work that I knew of. And my dad, when he came here, he was about _____ years old, but he came from Mexico with a family by the name of Gonzales. The Gonzales family was going to California, so my dad, when he passed, like they used to say [contraban?], ______ Gonzales. So he went out and stayed in Williams. Then he worked as a sheepherder for a couple of years or something like that. During the winter he used to go all the way to Phoenix, so he knew that land like a map of whatever you want to call it.
Munoz: So he worked as a sheepherder in Williams?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: With who, do you remember?
Hernandez: I can't remember, [Cool Cat?] or something like that.
Munoz: The Cool Cats?
Hernandez: It could have been ________. I'm not too sure, though. And then from there....
Munoz: What year was this?
Hernandez: Oh, that must have been in, let's see, about [1918], during World War I, around there. He was too young to go into the service.
Munoz: How old was he then?
Hernandez: He must have been about, well, seventeen years. And then from there, he started working with the sawmills. And he worked there most of his life, _____________ 'til 1941. That's when the sawmill moved here to Flagstaff. And then from there he got a job through the railroad, Santa Fe Railroad. And we lived six miles west from Flagstaff, which was Riordan in those years. So he only worked there maybe a year, or maybe not quite a year, so then we moved here to Flagstaff and he wound up going back to the sawmills, got rehired over there. He worked there until he retired, I guess. Actually, he didn't retire, he got a stroke, back in the sixties. Yeah, in the sixties, along there, when he got a stroke. Then he passed away in those days.
Munoz: When you say the railroad, like in section housing?
Hernandez: No. When I talk about the railroad, it was like we used to live in a section from there. I think they had from Riordan towards Williams, probably up to the other section [crew?], but Main, which is now Parks. So they used to work those.
Munoz: With [the trucking?].
Hernandez: It was a lot of, what do you call that? During the winter, it just happened to be during the winter, and they used to get up all the time, whenever they were called to go clean switches and so on, so nothing would happen, like an accident or something like that. I can't remember the man's name, the foreman. He was, I think his nationality was German. But it was Anita, if you remember Ray Concino [phonetic spelling], that was his wife. So she used to ______. That's why I knew her in those years--Anita. And then ___________.
Munoz: Did he ever say what brought him to the United States, your parents?
Hernandez: Well, I think, the way he talked to us, stories and everything, I think he couldn't get along with his stepfather. He said he used to push __________, and he was having too much trouble because it was during those years when a lot of farming or anything. I think he must have had a farm, I don't know whether he was a farmer or not. So one day, like I say, he got mad and he decided to run away ________. And I don't know how he got together with the Gonzales family, but he heard that they were coming to California, and eventually, I guess, during those years, I say maybe there wasn't too much problem in passing from Mexico to, like they do now.
Munoz: Right, right.
Hernandez: Because that's where they came out __________. _______ come up, _______ whoever they wanted to. They just happened to get _________. That's all he used to say. I don't remember him mentioning the name of (
Munoz: First name.) the Gonzales. So he came as far as Williams and he got--I don't know how he happened to meet this family, the Luceros [phonetic spelling]. There was Herman Lucero, dad and mama.
Munoz: Uh-huh, Frances.
Hernandez: They weren't married yet, when you say Frances, but ____________. But Lucero, and then Feliciano, Lucero, that was Herman's dad, and Lucia Sandoval. Her maiden name, Lucia Sandoval.
Munoz: I've heard that name.
Hernandez: That was Herman Lucero's folks. So I guess he kind of--well, they say they kind of raised him okay.
Munoz: Your father?
Hernandez: Yeah, my dad. Until he got married with my mom.
Munoz: Where did he meet her?
Hernandez: I think here they were getting married. I can't remember what year they got married. It had to be around 1926, '25, around there, when they got married, because I was born in '27. That's why I'm kind of guessing.
Munoz: Were you the eldest __________?
Hernandez: I'm the oldest of the family, eleven of us.
Munoz: Wow! eleven kids! What a thing! Nowadays, two is too many.
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: Okay, so your father came early. Did he ever mention how he came with that family? Did they come by train?
Hernandez: Well, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, the way he talked, it was kind of [downtown?], walking, and this and that. __________. He mentioned something about a car, an old car, ________. But first when they came over, he said he came over in a wagon, [coming?] wagon, first. But then I think _______ car, like those old cars, you know. Not a sedan, like we call it. A boxcar, like a little boxcar that they had in those years.
Munoz: What year was that again?
Hernandez: Well, that should have been about 1917, because he was born in 1903, and he was fourteen years, about 1917, when he left Mexico. Now, how he met my mom, I do not know. Some coincidence, because my mom used to live, oh, what, maybe a half a mile or a mile apart. My dad used to live more on the southern part of Williams, and my mom on the northern part of Williams. So they must have met someplace along the line.
Munoz: It's kind of interesting how probably they never talked about it, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah, I know. Well, I don't know ______. The older people used to be more strict than what they are today, maybe. That's the way I feel about it.
Munoz: You're right.
Hernandez: According to them, _______ strict. But you know what, they can go now and ___________.
Munoz: They were very private, too. They didn't talk much.
Hernandez: No, they didn't talk much. But like I remember my dad used to tell us, if we ever wanted anything, we had to work for it like he did. In those days I think my dad was only working for about sixty cents a day. And we're talking about a day, [from] sunup to sundown. (inaudible) So he did the best he could __________, and it's hard _______ good job because they knew a lot of things that he knew. Just because he worked in mills, you know, _________ something like that, because my dad was a good electrician and a good plumber.
Munoz: He had other skills, yeah. But you know, what I've gathered is that because the mill was there, and that's the only place where the mexicanos could work, (whispered comment, inaudible) [it kind of left them at the mill?]. Like one of my uncles, Ray Ceballos--I don't know if you know him--he said that's what they thought Mexican people were just supposed to do, is stick to the mill.
Hernandez: Well, in those years, I think there were more people from Mexico, let's put it that way.
Munoz: Oh, yes.
Hernandez: (inaudible) Like my dad, he didn't know English, to say, that he could get a better job _______ that way. See, my dad might have known a couple of words, and that was it. But every time they would talk about me and my mom or ______ or anything, my dad used to just speak Spanish. My mom was an educated lady. I guess she went to school in Williams and got to be a citizen of the United States. And my dad never became a citizen. He couldn't understand the Constitution or whatever you have to do.
Munoz: Well, maybe that was his choice. My grandma was the same, my Grandma Luz, the one that lives over here, she never became a citizen, never. And the amount of time they've lived here, and they still....
Munoz: So then, like I say, in 1941, I think my dad, like I say, __________ I'd say a year, and then we moved to Flagstaff.
Munoz: You were born in Williams then?
Hernandez: I was born in Williams.
Munoz: Do you remember, you were born in the hospital, or were you born at home?
Hernandez: I think I was born at home.
Munoz: And of course it would have been a midwife?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Hernandez: Your mother never mentioned who the lady might have been?
Hernandez: No. Well, after, you know, people would help. I'll say one thing, you knew in the vicinity where you lived, you knew most of the people. And a lot of these people would come out and help with whatever they could. Like I remember _________. Me, I worked with the Gonzales family out there. He had cows and horses and other families would have pigs. There were, in those years, a lot of pigs _________.
Munoz: So it was like ranching, huh?
Hernandez: ________ like that. But that was just about it. You know, they used to, what do you call that, like farmers, whatever, _____________ [Lopez?] corn _____________, whatever they could get _______ like that.
Munoz: Was that at your home?
Hernandez: That's right.
Munoz: Your father would do this?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: What's the name of the street, do you remember, in Williams?
Hernandez: I think it was on South Fifth Street. And I'll never forget. The only thing that I remembered was 624 or 626--something like that. That's where we used to live on Fifth Street. __________ on the south. When we moved in there, it was kind of like one bedroom, or something like that. Most of the houses out there were real small then in those years. And then by working with the lumber, my dad, I remember when we started building out there, you know. The lumber was very, very cheap. Some of that lumber was even thrown away. You don't see that now. A lot of scrap they say was scrap. But whatever they had to get, they would get, and that's the way we built the house.
Munoz: So you were salvaging all the lumber.
Hernandez: We got at least one more room.
Munoz: So your father was really handy with his hands then, and he was a carpenter in a sense.
Hernandez: My dad built a good--like I say, he was a good carpenter and ______ with lumber. So that was no problem for him.
Munoz: When he was a young man and he came here to Flagstaff, he must have been working in areas where he picked that up, do you think?
Hernandez: Yeah. He had to pick it up here in the United States, because like I say, he was strictly more like a farmer in Mexico. That's why, like I'm telling you, they used to get up real early and then, as far as my, I guess my dad got [mad?]. He told me he told his mother that he was going to go ___________. That's why I say I think most of ____________. Like I say, when you were building, he put all the plumbing and electricity and everything like that. I don't know if he already knew it, or what, but I'm pretty sure he picked it up ____________. That's the way they built their house. Most of 'em [speak around there?]. _________ people _________. I think everybody was starting to do that _________ like a contract like we do now. You know, contractor to build anything. No, they built it. And of course some people would come and help.
Munoz: That's interesting. He started at a very young age to learn all these skills.
Hernandez: ________. Well, in my dad's case, he was so young that he had to learn pretty fast. Because, like I say, he started everything real young, talking about it. And then he never saw his mother until about forty years after.
Munoz: Oh really?! Forty years?! Wow.
Hernandez: As a matter of fact, I think it was in 1947, if I'm not mistaken--between '47 and '48. And the reason I'm sayin' that years, because I got out of service in '46, and the following year.... They used to communicate by letter, you know, and my dad used to send her maybe a thousand or whatever. So they were communicating all the time. And that year, when I got out of the service, my dad told her mother, because.... Well, in those years, if you went back to Mexico, you probably wouldn't come back. __________. So he didn't want to go. So he asked me [if I'd go?]. I said, "Yeah, I'll go for you." Had a picture, you know. And he told her mother to get some way to come over to the border at El Paso, Texas, _______. And me and a friend of mine, ______ Pena was his last name. I can't think of his first name. But we went in that year, and my grandmother was there. So that's the first time I saw my grandma, see. So when we got there, it was ________. During the week, you know, ______ the weekend. The office was open until Monday _________ o'clock in the morning. So what we did, we got a room for my grandma, and we stayed on the other side, we stayed at El Paso. We went back and forth to see her, and I gave her some money. But she didn't want to take a penny, she was poor. Well, you know, we didn't know each other very well, in other words. She was kind of maybe ashamed or I don't know. So she was used to not taking nothing but what she had. But after that we got to know each other between those two, three days [there?]. And Monday I thought I was going to have a lot of problems passing my grandmother _______. All they did was ask me a question, "Who is going to take care of her?" I said, "Well, my dad. If not my dad, I'm responsible, because I'm ________ for her." And all I had to do was sign a piece of paper. And I think they gave her some shots to come over. And that was all. It didn't even take one hour. By that time we were in El Paso [looking?] and the bus was leaving at ten o'clock in the morning, so we got to El Paso.
Munoz: How did you get over there, to El Paso, by the bus?
Hernandez: No, well, actually we got a taxi ride.
Munoz: You drove a taxi from Arizona to El Paso?!
Hernandez: No, no. How we got over there?
Munoz: Yeah, how did you get over there?
Hernandez: Oh, we went on a bus. ______ El Paso. And then crossing over, you know, there's all kinds of old cars and there used to be taxis, so we got one of those. And all you had to do, they didn't have ______ I don't know, ________ the taxi or whoever we got a ride with, ____________, little donation _________.
Munoz: It's a tip, uh-huh.
Hernandez: That's the way. And then when we got here, oh, I tell you, that's a good gathering. And they made [talk?], just like we're talking right now. ________ words that I never heard in my life in Spanish.
Munoz: So your vocabulary in Spanish was building, huh?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: Must have been a real treat for your dad, too, huh?
Hernandez: I used to love my grandma, when she used to talk, when she was in the revolution of Pancho Villa. She was with him, my grandma.
Munoz: What else did she say?
Hernandez: Well, she had a very inter.... (laughs) At that time when she was there, a lot of families ___________. I don't know what happened between my dad and my dad's father. I don't know what happened to my grandfather. Like you say, he just couldn't get along with his stepfather.
Munoz: Did he have any brothers and sisters over there maybe?
Hernandez: That's one thing I don't know. He never did mention any brothers or anything. He must have had--surely he had maybe cousins or uncles or something, because _____________ some uncles ________.
Munoz: So when you brought your grandma over, did she say what type of work she did in Mexico to survive?
Hernandez: She was an excellent baker, let's put it that way. You know how they used to make tortillas, corn tortillas. When she came over here, and even before that, _______ a lot of corn tortillas _______. When she came over here, she used to make corn tortillas every day. He would take her corn and take it over here to Vasquez.
Munoz: Yeah, el molino.
Hernandez: Yeah, right there, to grind her corn, and then make it like [bowl?] you know, and then she would make the tortillas or _______ and gorditas, and then, you know, _____________. (laughter) My grandma, when she decided to go back to Mexico, I think she was more, what do you call that?
Munoz: Traditional? What are you trying to say?
Hernandez: She liked it, maybe she was homesick. So I think that's what pulled her out. She stayed here, I can't remember, a year, a couple of years. I don't remember. She didn't actually stay that long, but she was a hard lady, she was a strong lady. And then when she went to Mexico, about probably a year or something, she passed away.
Munoz: What year was that?
Hernandez: Maybe the last of the forties, I think.
Munoz: So when you moved from Williams to Flagstaff, where did you move first? Where was your first home here in Flagstaff?
Hernandez: In Flagstaff, we moved _____ Lopez lived down there.
Munoz: On Benton?
Hernandez: Benton, yeah.
Munoz: Or Brannen--I'm sorry--Brannen.
Hernandez: Yeah, around there, where Paul Lopez, right on the corner. My uncle used to live there, an Uncle Luna Yneras [phonetic spelling]. It was my uncle. That was Albert's brother, you know.
Munoz: Luna? Nieves Luna?
Hernandez: Yes. And Nieves de Luna. So we came here, we didn't have a place to stay, let's put it that way. From there, we moved where George Barreras [phonetic spelling] lived, right there on DuPont. That's where we moved. And then we didn't stay very long, because my dad was always trying to see if we could get a house, you know. Maybe that same year or the following year, I don't know how close it was, that's when we bought right here at 521 South San Francisco, that property right there. And we stayed there until he passed away _________. Let's say from '42, because in '41 we were over there, but like I say, we only stayed a year.
Munoz: In Williams?
Hernandez: No, in '41 we were at the railroad station, at that section. We stayed there one year--close to a year, let's put it that way--and then by that he came in, because they offered him a job here at the Saginaw. And then that's why I say around _________ who were just moving around, this and that, until we found a place over here, a house. I tell you, that house, if you want to call it a house, __________ had maybe cracks that big, maybe from an inch to two inches, that went _____ the house, you know.
Munoz: Who did he buy it from?
Hernandez: I don't know, I can't remember, who was the owner. A lot of that property around there used to belong to Babbitts, just like that corner over there.
Munoz: Did he ever mention how much it cost to buy?
Hernandez: The house? We wound up paying, I think it was $1,500. But I think they put it down to $1,200, something like that, because all that work we had to do.
Munoz: It was all wood, huh, all made of wood?
Hernandez: It was wood.
Munoz: _______ insulation?
Hernandez: Yeah. And then it was all _____________ showers. There were no showers. ___________.
Munoz: The antique bathtubs, yeah.
Hernandez: Yeah, the bathtub. So we fixed it a little, and then by that time, let's see, I was already fourteen years. So what I did, I was working during school days, you know, when school was out, or ______ school in the afternoon, I was working at El Patio Cafe. That was old Jerry and Rose, the owner of that place.
Munoz: Jerry and Rose who?
Hernandez: El Patio Cafe.
Munoz: What was their last name, do you remember?
Hernandez: They had a funny name, they were Greek. He was Greek. Rose was a white lady. They were real nice. So we were there. As a matter of fact, me and my twin brother worked in there.
Munoz: I didn't know you were a twin.
Hernandez: No, my twin brothers. I've got twin brothers. Not me. I'm the oldest. And __________, and then my sister Angie. So all of us were working. That's the way we helped my dad pay for whatever we had to. And my dad used to bring scraps of whatever he could from the mill. So we'd patch it up the best we could, until finally we made it out. And then he had a little house on the back for ________ out there. And by that time, well, in between after that I went in the service. And when I came from the service in '46, when I came back, I got a job for the Navajo Army Depot, and I told my mama every time when I was small, young, I said, "Mom, I'll pay you for everything that you did, because...." This is something I'll never forget in my life. I remember I wanted to go to a movie or someplace, or have something, my mom used to go across to this family ______ Sanchez ________ or whatever, and just go ask for a penny or two pennies. I'll never forget that.
Munoz: She would go ask for a penny or two pennies?
Hernandez: Yeah, can you believe that?
[END TAPE 1, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B]
Munoz: What stayed in your mind, the two pennies that you would never....
Hernandez: Yeah, I told my mom that I would never forget what she used to do for me when I was young. "When I get old, I'm gonna build a house," and something, you know. So the first two, three years, four years, that I worked for the depot, I built a house on back of that property, and I paid for it, and I told my mom, "This is the house that I promised you," (inaudible). Of course when I was in the service I had a [Class "C"?] allotment for her so she could get money, you know, for her. That's why I don't think we--what do you call that?--not in a big [dying?] that people get, you know, ___, you know. I was just fortunate and lucky, let's put it that way. Even before that. But now this fourteen years I'll never forget either, when the second one was here. Before I started at....
Munoz: (inaudible)
Hernandez: No, when I started working at El Patio, I only worked a little time, not too much. So I got a job for second.
Munoz: _________. How much money were you making at El Patio?
Hernandez: El Patio? Oh, I don't know, maybe twenty-five cents every _________. (laughter)
Munoz: An hour?
Hernandez: An hour, I guess.
Munoz: What did you exactly do there at El Patio?
Hernandez: I first started as a dishwasher, and then I got promoted to a busboy. And after that, I went and worked for El Saginaw. I'll never forget that man as long as I live. His name was Frank. He was a boss right there. I bothered him for, oh, a whole week. He didn't want to give me a job. The reason was that he didn't want to give me a job before because I was too young.
Munoz: You were fourteen, you said?
Hernandez: Yeah. I told him, "Well, I need a job. I gotta pay for school or whatever, or get clothes, or this and that to go to school," I said. "No, no," he said, "go home. Go home, we can't give you a job." So the next day, before the whistle blew, I was there. And that happened for about a week, going back and forth, back and [forth]. Finally I guess he must have gotten tired. "Okay, go down to the machine shop and go see Henry Espana." I'll never forget that man, Henry Espana. "And tell him to put you to sweep, clean the machine shop." So that's what I was doing. But I got so--you know, I wanted to learn a lot of stuff. I was always very ambitious, let's put it that way--even as a young kid. You had to, in those years, you know. I looked at Henry Espana cut and weld, and all that stuff. He asked me if I wanted to learn. "Yeah!" I said, "Yeah, I want to learn." So when I was fifteen years, I already knew how to weld and cut, because he showed me. Then I went out and the railroad then, the one that used to bring the logs in there, sometimes they would break or something. I used to fix them.
Munoz: By welding?
Hernandez: Uh-huh, and helping. And I'll never forget then, what's-his-name, you know Salvador Cortazmo [phonetic spelling]?
Munoz: Uh-huh.
Hernandez: Blue Jay.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: Me and him worked at Saginaw together in those years.
Munoz: What did he do?
Hernandez: The same thing. We were helping. And then by that time, the railroad _____ was going out toward Happy Jack. I think they were building it more farther, because the logs, they had to keep on going back and forth, back. So we were loading cars, those cars that they used to put under the track, to build _______. We used to, me and Salvador Cortez used to put 'em on a flatcar so they could take 'em out there for work.
Munoz: How did you put them up there, was it by machine?
Hernandez: No, they used to come out like in a line, like a conveyor line, and then they slide into a bunch of boards that they build like a slider. So you had to be smart how to get 'em, get 'em with a hook and ___ 'em up to the mark, and then somebody would stack 'em up there.
Munoz: How interesting.
Hernandez: I mean, like I say, you learn fast if you wanted to work, let's put it that way. The first few, we couldn't....
Munoz: You were fifteen years old!
Hernandez: So I'll never forget Mr. Reyes [phonetic spelling] was his last name, Ralph Reyes' dad. I can't remember his....
Munoz: Are you thinking about Bernardino?
Hernandez: (inaudible) Reyes, his dad. He's the one that showed me how. Get it like ______________ and he showed me ______. So after that, like I say, he knew how, and then it was easy, you know, easy work. It wasn't real, real hard. By that time, when I was doing that, my dad was working for Saginaw, you see.
Munoz: So you both worked ___________.
Hernandez: So every time they paid me, they used to pay me sixty dollars, I guess, something like that. And I used to give my money to my mom. I never gave nothing to my dad.
Munoz: He had his own money, huh?
Hernandez: So I gave my mom everything, and I remember my mom, I tell her--I'd sign that check and give it to her, and then she'd just, when you cashed it--because I _________ cash. Well, you could, you know, but I knew, you know, but I give it to my mom, and then she would give me two, three, five dollars. So I was rich, see.
Munoz: Like an allowance, huh?
Hernandez: Yes. But I said, I told her that anytime that I would have, that you didn't have to worry about it when I grow up. That's one thing ___________.
Munoz: Because you saw her struggle and trying to....
Hernandez: Si. Well, that's __________. And then, like I say, I was lucky that I went to work for the Navajo Army Depot. By that time....
Munoz: That came after the war, right?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: What did you do in the war? What year did you go?
Hernandez: I went in the first part of '45.
Munoz: Were you taken?
Hernandez: In World War II.
Munoz: Okay, so you had to go?
Hernandez: Uh-huh. And then from there....
Munoz: What branch?
Hernandez: Army. I was in the army. And then when I got out of the army in '50, '52, around there, I joined the guard. And I stayed with the guard for thirty years, and I stayed at the Navajo Army Depot working for forty-three years. So, like I say, I got a good retirement out of that whole ______.
Munoz: That was good planning, very good planning.
Hernandez: Well, the only reason I say [good place?] for one reason, ________ my dad was still alive. And that's when they moved Saginaw to Southwest. My uncle, Albert Luna, was a foreman out there in those years. And then I was only getting [in Belmont?] maybe, what was it, eighty-five cents an hour, I think, when I started over there. I think it was eighty-five cents an hour. And the meals were paid, $1.00, $1.04, something like that. So I don't know how this came up, _________. My uncle said, "Wait! Why don't you come over and work for me? I can give a job out here loading boxcars with lumber." Lumber was being shipped out, you know. You know, the jobs and everything. I told my dad about it, and my dad said, "If I was you, I'd just stick it out with the government, because the sawmill, once it goes"--whenever you blow the whistle or whatever--"you start working until that whistle blows again. And then you start again, and then that ends, and you don't know what's going to happen." I don't say there was a lot of accidents. "You might get hurt, and that'd be all," and this and that. So I took my dad's advice ________. So that's why I stayed out there, and I was very lucky, because it only took me less than two years, let's put it that way, because when I went over there, that depot was just plain labor.
Munoz: As plain labor, what did you do?
Hernandez: I was an explosive operator, where you handled all that ammunition. I went right away to demolition, where we used to detonate old ammunition. See, the old obsolete, that they call obsolete ammunition. A lot of projectiles and everything, blowing them up, you know, get rid of them.
Munoz: Where did you take them to?
Hernandez: When I went in there, of course the depot was already kind of full blasting, and the depot was creating more, a lot of Indians working there. Well, that's why they call it Navajo, you know. That was the idea, that in those years it was Navajo Ordinance Depot. So I went out there and when I went over there, I went right out from there, I went straight to what they call demolition where they destroy all those kind of old stuff or whatever, obsolete stuff. They came back from World War II, you know.
Munoz: Where did you explode them at?
Hernandez: South, between eight and ten miles, into the reservation, that they called, you know. ________ 8,000 acres there. So we had a place where to detonate that kind of ammunition, so nobody is going to be endangered.
Munoz: How many of you were there doing this?
Hernandez: When we were there, you won't believe this, they had so much people in there, I think between 3,000 and 4,000 people working in there. And I remember, like I say, that they told me that when I went and hired for that job.... As a matter of fact, I got hired only for thirty days, because it was December 19. I got on December 3, December 19 I went to work over there. And I'll never forget Ann Ganch [phonetic spelling] was the personnel officer, the one that used to do. She was _______. So she said, "Well, we've got a job for thirty days. You still want to go to work?" "Yeah! I'm here, I might as well go to work." So I remember _____________ they took us in like a truck. It was all covered. You couldn't even see where you were going. There was canvas, and all they had was old army trucks.
Munoz: So it was a military truck, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah, military truck. And they were covered by some of that particle board or plywood or something, and locked it, you know.
Munoz: You were locked in there, too?
Hernandez: Well, they put, you know, so that [Dolan's?] people.... And then we went up there and they could have left me there, I didn't even know where I was ____. I couldn't even see the San Francisco Peaks. We were kind of in a hole, you know. So that was my first job, working out there on demolition. And then my thirty days came up, so I told the guys, "Well, I'll see you, guys. My days are over." They called me into the office and they asked me--and you know what they told me? Ann said, "Hey, do you still want to keep on working?" I said, "Well, I'm here." Oh, she told me, I'll never forget, she said, "Well, go back to your job." And I went up as forty-three years working for the government. And I never did sign any papers! But she told me, "Go back." So that's the way it started.
Munoz: Did you do the same job for forty-three years while you were at the Navajo Army Depot?
Hernandez: No, I changed. That's one thing over there, you don't know from one day to the other day, unless you work on the lines where you would last maybe two, three months, or something. Like during the winter, they'd bring us in, because you couldn't do demolition work because it's too muddy, and you couldn't put any equipment in there, see. So we used to work in there. But in those years there was a lot of ladies working up there, you know. A lot of young ladies.
Munoz: Like Jessie Alonzo, did you see her out there?
Hernandez: Oh, yeah. ________ used to work over there.
Munoz: Not her husband, but her.
Hernandez: Yeah. She used to work over there, but I think she went and worked out there before I did, maybe.
Munoz: Right. That was during the war, and she worked during the war. You worked after the war.
Hernandez: Yeah, I worked after. But when I worked after, there were still young girls. Even Rosemary, she worked over there.
Munoz: Rosemary who?
Hernandez: Rosemary.... What the heck was it? Torres? [phonetic spelling]
Munoz: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hernandez: She used to work over there.
Munoz: She was married to Elmo Torres, yeah.
Hernandez: There was a lot of ladies used to work out there. There were some ladies, young girls or whatever, they used to work in the line, just handle ammunition just like any of us.
Munoz: Yeah, so they were doing men's jobs as well.
Hernandez: And there was a lady up there, Mrs. Matthews. I'll never forget Mrs. Matthews. That was Tom Matthews' wife. She was an old lady. I shouldn't say real old, but an old lady. I could swear to God that she was maybe sixty-five to seventy years. But she was just like, what do you call, like an inspector, just looking around there. Let me tell you something, this is very.... (laughs) One day we had like a primary explosion in the [gihayta?] on the side, and then it blew up. Good thing it didn't have power. We were just working on the primers, you know. And it bumped. So the first thing they tell you, "Get out of the building." So that lady out there on top of that hill, she was the first one up there. So you can just imagine how fast she moved! (laughter) That's what I'm saying.
Munoz: So that was endangering your lives out there?
Hernandez: Oh, yeah. Well, after years and years they decided to put two categories of deals out there, working. In other words, there was some that we worked with explosives more, you would get an 8 percent raise. And then if it didn't have [pneumatics?] explosives, they would have four, you know. So....
Munoz: So that was the deal.
Hernandez: Yeah. It was a good one, because, well, like I say, it's real dangerous. There was a.... I never saw a serious accident out there. There's like cuts or bruises, something like that used to happen.
Munoz: Not blowing someone's arm off or anything?
Hernandez: No. We were just lucky. And on that, when we first started, I don't think they believed in safety.
Munoz: OSHA wasn't there, huh?
Hernandez: OSHA wasn't there. But now, oh! OSHA's one of the best ones ________. So used to throw the ammunition into a dump truck or something, take it out there and just bring and empty and just let 'em roll down there. So if we would have hit a primer, you know what would have happened.
Munoz: Yes!
Hernandez: The darned thing would have blown up and probably killed some of us.
Munoz: So you were lucky it never happened.
Hernandez: We were lucky. Then after that, everything was very safety ________.
Munoz: Wow, that is scary, huh? Because you wouldn't have never known if you'd gone back home. Wow. Okay, I'm going to go back to your house on San Francisco, that you built _________. About what year was that when you bought that house, or your mom and dad bought it?
Hernandez: My dad and mom. I'd say 1942 when we bought it, because, like I say, we moved here from DuPont, then we went straight to ______. And we stayed there until, like I said, my dad and my folks passed away.
Munoz: Let me ask you, what was the neighborhood like?
Hernandez: The neighborhood, I would say they were very friendly, actually. Like I say, years and years ago most of the people were friendly. I think they were very friendly, but I'm talking about this side, I'm not talking about the north, because everything was discrimination, right?
Munoz: Right. I'll come to that in a few. I'm just wondering, your neighborhood, mention some of your neighbors.
Hernandez: _______ like this, Bacas and Luceros and Barreras and __________ used to live there. Sanchez.
Munoz: Yeah, I remember Johnny [Cereal?].
Hernandez: What's his name now? Marana. Maranas used to live there, right next to right there. From this corner, the Sanchezes lived on the corner, and then the Maranas, Julia Marana [and her folks?]. I can remember Julia and Connie and _________ people __________. And then the next house there was Abetas, Mary Abetas, mi comadre. (chuckles) And then the Cernas, and then the Luceros. Herman used to live on that corner right there, Herman Lucero.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: And then on this side of the [site?] where now there's a church in there, there used to be the Barreras family, ______, her folks, ______ Garrearas, _________, right in there. And then next to them it was us. And then the next ones was _______ entonces despues, after they came, los Jaramillos. And los Mirandas right there. And right here, ________, this person right here used to be an old, old houses, you know, and _______.
Munoz: Oh, I remember that, the little shacky-type houses. I remember when I was a young person, coming to South Beaver, Larry Bradley used to live there.
Hernandez: Yeah, used to live there, and then some. And then I don't know what year the Colemans lived in there, because when he went over to Belmont, he used to live right there, the Colemans.
Munoz: Yeah, it was inside, yeah.
Hernandez: Inside. But like I say.... Well, you know, in those years everything.... Well the white people over here ____________. I don't know, African Americans _________.
Munoz: When you were growing up--well, when you came here in the forties, I guess by that time the African American people were out here already?
Hernandez: Uh-huh. Dunbar was still there. They used to go, just over here to South Beaver. That's when they started over here. That's the time when I came. South Beaver was still already ________.
Munoz: Did you go to South Beaver?
Hernandez: I didn't go to South Beaver, because I went to the eighth grade at Brannen. Like I say, I was fourteen already, ______ eighth grade. But all my kids went to South Beaver, all of 'em.
Munoz: How about when you were growing up as a child, what type of games do you remember playing?
Hernandez: Well, all my life, fast pitch.
Munoz: You like baseball?
Hernandez: I like baseball. And when I was going to school I used to play basketball. But what I really liked to play was fast pitch. So they didn't have fast pitch during those years. We used to go to Prescott, all the way up there. Sometimes we used to go three times in a week. Whenever our turn was to go up there, we played all that stuff was in Prescott. I don't know why Flagstaff never had it.
Munoz: What was the team that you played with?
Hernandez: JP-8 Tougherteers. [phonetic spelling]
Munoz: What year was that?
Hernandez: Hm, well, let's see.... I don't know when Joe started there, but he was our manager, let's put it that way.
Munoz: Joe Aragundo? [phonetic spelling]
Hernandez: Yeah, Joe Aragundo. About what year was that building on _____ JP Tougherteers.
Munoz: Maybe in the late sixties, early seventies.
Hernandez: Yeah, around there, because we played for years and years with him.
Munoz: He was your sponsor, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah, he was our sponsor, and I'll tell ya', he was one of the best sponsors. I'll never say nothing against him. All we had to do is buy our glove and shoes, and he would put the rest.
Munoz: How many years would you say you participated in your softball pitching?
Hernandez: Oh, twenty-five, thirty years. (laughs) I played ball until I was sixty-two years old, let's put it that way.
Munoz: That's a nice long time. You stayed pretty active.
Hernandez: That's a long time. As a matter of fact, when the Coconino Box Factory was over here, right there on that--well, down around where the sawmill was, right in there--Juicy Elbaro [phonetic spelling] asked me to play for him, and there was a fast pitch ______. And all these people there used to play in there.
Munoz: What was the name of that team?
Hernandez: I think it was Coconino Box Factory. That's all I remember. They just made a team (snaps fingers) like that. That's when I started. And when that year was up, I think there was maybe sixteen years or something. Played all my life, played ball.
Munoz: In Williams tambien?
Hernandez: In Williams I never played ball. I don't know why.
Munoz: When you were younger, what did you do over there for games?
Hernandez: Well, when I was younger, I was going to school, let's put it that way.
Munoz: At Williams Elementary School.
Hernandez: And then after school, my dad, well, like I say, my dad was a hard man.
Munoz: It's understandable.
Hernandez: He was a hard man. He said, "When I was, oh, I think I started when I was five, six years old...." He used to tell us, "Why don't you go up there and see if this lady would like you to throw that wood into the wood shed," or something like that. So there I go. I threw more darned wood stove wood in sheds, all right there, for maybe five cents or whatever.
Munoz: Uh-huh, but you earned your money.
Hernandez: You earned your money, that's for sure, because they had big trucks, and they used to scatter the wood from here to the fence over there, and you had to pick it up. So that's what they used to _______. And then most of our time, like Sunday, everybody, we used to have a lot of picnics over at the cement dam in Williams. We went swimming out there and all that. All these people used to gather, some up there, have picnics out there. And all of us were like fishing always on the dam.
Munoz: Swimming all the time.
Hernandez: And then, when I was grown, like I say, I used to work for this Gonzales. I used to milk the cows. He showed me how to milk the cow. That's one thing I'll say, we always had milk, because I used to.... "All right, take some," _____ cream in every ________. So we had milk. My two brothers, which are my twin brothers, they used to work for Lopez. Jimmy Lopez, __________. They were Lopez. They had chickens and rabbits and pigs--animals.
Munoz: _________.
Hernandez: _______. So that family used to give us a small pig like that, and my dad would raise it. And here comes Christmas and (smacks table with hand).... ___________.
Munoz: _________ tamales _________.
Hernandez: Tamales and everything. We killed, but out of that, you know, all that [old corn and everything?].
Munoz: Feed it to 'em, uh-huh.
Hernandez: [Feed it to] the animals, you know. They used to give us like chickens once in a while. So we always had meat, I'll tell you the truth. And we were never raised under it like that. Beans and chile, I guess, like that, whatever, you know.
Munoz: And this was all in Williams, huh, where you learned all that--the milking of the cows?
Hernandez: Yeah. This man....
Munoz: How old were you then, do you think?
Hernandez: When I was milking the cows? Oh, seven years maybe--six, seven years. We used to, like I say, it was more like a, what do you call, like a family, helping each other. You had to. And then those years right there, nothing but bootlegging.
Munoz: Right, that's another one I would have asked you. Let's go to the school. You went to the elementary schools in Williams.
Hernandez: Williams Elementary School. That's where I went. Then from there.... I stayed there, like I say, from the sixth year, seventh year, around there, in school.
Munoz: Okay, sixth grade.
Hernandez: And that's when I came back over here. But I went to the eighth grade here, so I had to go to the seventh grade _______.
Munoz: When you were going to school, your first language was?
Hernandez: Well, what do you want to say, Spanish or English? Before I went to school, I didn't know English, let's put it that way. I didn't even like school to begin with, okay, because I'll never forget when I was in the first grade, I played hookey for three months.
Munoz: Oh, Lord!
Hernandez: So I stayed in the fourth grade. _______. So what I did out there, I didn't even tell my dad or mom. When they knew about it, I got a whippin'! (laughter)
Munoz: Why did you [play hookey]? Because you didn't like school? Why didn't you like school?
Hernandez: Well, I wasn't very much interested in school, let's put it that way. I was more like--ah, I shouldn't say forced, but my mom used to [tell us] the best thing is to go to school ______. But in those years....
[END TAPE 1, SIDE B; BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE A]
Hernandez: Then after that, my dad _________. After that whipping, I knew what I had to do. And I went back in the fourth grade, back to the fourth grade, okay.
Munoz: Do you remember your teacher's name?
Hernandez: Oh, I don't know. ___________ that's one of the teachers that I knew anyway, but I don't remember the teachers, to tell you the truth. Just Miles Kierdon [phonetic spelling] because we had a little _______ between me and him. Me and la familia Perez, they had two brothers, Emilio Perez and Jesus Perez. That teacher was mean, and I don't care who says no, he was very mean. He just happened to one time, you know, ah, you know how kids are kids anyway. That teacher would come out here through the back and catch and slap you. One day he just slapped the wrong guy, because Jesus Perez, he got up and we got in a fight with him. And I don't know why I jumped into the middle of the darned thing, but we all got thrown on. _________. We had to go to the principal and go through all the routines, __________. And more like troublemakers, I guess, let's put it that way. It looked to me every time something went wrong, they always went to us, saying it was us. Like I'll never forget this girl that stole the money out of the principal's desk. Her name was Amid Tamarales [phonetic spelling] and those girls were, you know. So they blamed us. And we are not going over there to ______ department ________. We might do everything, but we didn't steal money. So finally they knew she was the girl, and I think she went to the, what do you call that, the girls'....
Munoz: Oh, reform school or something of the sort?
Hernandez: Uh-huh, the reform school.
Munoz: Wow. You build a reputation and they come looking for you, huh? I was going to ask you, because Spanish being your first language, did you find that difficult to go to school and try to learn English?
Hernandez: It was difficult. When you start school, it's just like my daughter here, when she went to school, Diane. She didn't know a word in English, to tell you the truth. She couldn't even tell the teacher she wanted to go to the restroom or something like that. And our primary, it was just Spanish, let's put it that way. And over there was the same thing, because everybody.... But it made it hard, because my parents, you know, they all speak Spanish, because my dad didn't know English. Even up to the last that my dad passed away, we always talked Spanish. Irene's folks also. They were from Mexico, _____ to speak to her in Spanish. And then Irene knew real good Spanish, too, to begin with, my wife. Every time they talked, it was in Spanish, never English at all. I don't think we.... But then after that, and English [deals?], we made it for one reason, because of Diana. Diana Robert Ruben, they talked Spanish. The other ones, like my other kids, English--Ray and all those. They'll understand it, but they won't speak it. But our primary [language] was Spanish. I would say it was Spanish.
Munoz: Okay, so do you think that's why you didn't like going to school?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: Maybe you didn't want to have to communicate in English. You know, there's a lot of people that I've done oral histories with, and really, a lot of 'em left school because they didn't want to learn. They had a hard time trying to....
Hernandez: Most of us, I think most of us had a hard time, because when you start.... Well, you're an idiot, let's put it that way, when you start. But after that, you pick it up. To me, I think as a little kid, he picks it up fast, you know. That's why I say you pick it up pretty fast. But in older people, they ain't gonna.... I'm not even going to speculate.
Munoz: Yeah. Well, that's 'cause he always spoke Spanish. It was easier for him to communicate in Spanish than in English. But you were the first one to go to school and learn English, but since you were ditching so much....
Hernandez: But then when it comes to us, now, for instance like that, all my kids went in school. And I told them that if you ever wanted ___________ what my dad used to tell us, "If you want something, you have to work for it." So if you want to work, and my dad used to say, "If you want to work all your life with a pick and shovel, don't go to school. But if you want to have kind of a good job, you have to know _________ or something like that." But my kids, one of 'em, like Ralph, he [referred?], because he was in the tenth grade. He didn't want to go to school no more. We talked about it, and I said, "Okay, if you don't want to go to school, you don't have to go to school. I don't care whether you go or not, but you're not going to stay here. As long as I'm paying or costing me, you're going to go to school. If you don't like it, and you think you got a nickel in your pocket, there's the door." So he talked to his mom. I don't know what they talked [about], this and that, but he [wind down grades are "A," you see?]. Like I say, it's up to the parents to.... But if you're living with a kid _________ but stay here, the same thing. You know he's not going to go to school.
Munoz: That's true. When you were growing up in Williams, do you remember any neighborhood stores in Williams?
Hernandez: No, not that I know.
Munoz: They didn't have little stores around the neighborhoods over there?
Hernandez: No, it was kind of a peaceable ________. (laughter)
Munoz: How about the grocery stores? What grocery stores were there?
Hernandez: Grocery store, there was a grocery store, let's see, about two, three blocks, goin' back to town, you know. And it was run by Senor Torres. He had that grocery store. Of course we had the commissary out there for the Saginaw workers. Now that building was a huge big building, buy our groceries there. And everything, like I say, it was real cheap.
Munoz: At that time, yeah.
Hernandez: But it was right there close to it, you know. Now, that store was almost the same distance, I think. Just go to, I don't know what street is that, but you go down there from that to the other store, it was the same distance, just like a circle.
Munoz: So that's the neighborhood store. And this is in Williams, right?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: When you were growing up there, how about gardens? Yeah, you did, huh. You said you did.
Hernandez: My dad used to do plants. He'd plant corn, whatever we could.... You know, there's some places that you can plant. You can't compare Williams to Cottonwood or __________ on account of the weather.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: So you can grow something else different, like ________________ Camp Verde.
Munoz: So it was like squash or corn, potatoes?
Hernandez: We never planted potatoes. We had some plum trees, too. I remember we had plums.
Munoz: Okay, and flowers? I guess your mom would have a flower garden, huh?
Hernandez: Uh-huh, flowers. I picked flowers all over.
Munoz: Animals? At that time did your dad have--used to have pigs, right?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: And how about goats?
Hernandez: No. Lopez had the goats. And then there was another family, la familia Baca, that was there. Oh, they had a bunch of pigs.
Munoz: So they had a farm, do you think?
Hernandez: Yeah. It was a big--they had a big, what do you call it, a lot of land out there back in those years. Our place was pretty big. Most of the places were big.
Munoz: How many houses would you say were out there then?
Hernandez: Then?
Munoz: When you were growing up.
Hernandez: In our portion, our neighborhood, I would say there was maybe fifteen, twenty houses. There wasn't too many houses _________ because from where we used to live, Sixth Street was the last street, and then after it started growing, that's where they put the new high school out there. And then they put the, what do you call that, bunch of postal, electricity, and everything. But it's expanded. Now it's toward the cemetery, after it started growing. Before, right there between the cemetery, Gonzales had a big ranch right there. That's like _____ dairy.
Munoz: Uh-huh a dairy farm, or dairy ranch.
Hernandez: Or whatever, right there, in the middle. But nothing out there, because it was all, what do you call it, range land or something for the cows.
Munoz: A lot of range. Was that Gonzales an espanol o mexicano?
Hernandez: Well, he was from Spain, I think, espanol.
Munoz: So he had a dairy farm.
Hernandez: You know, like Gonzales was Richard. We used to call him _______. And then the one that has that Grand Canyon job, __________ and all those guys. Gonzales, that was his dad. That's where they got....
Munoz: The money to build, yeah.
Hernandez: And Jimmy Gonzales, they had the money. Those Gonzales had the money, let's put it that way.
Munoz: Because they had a lot of acreage out there, and they probably sold, huh? Okay. That's pretty cool, that we're getting some, looking into Williams, what it was like when you were growing up, because it's not always a Williams thing that I usually focus on. It's always in Flagstaff. But some people have migrated from Williams to Flagstaff. A lot of people migrated from Williams to Flagstaff with the sawmill.
Hernandez: Uh-huh, because of the mill. I have always said that if the mill would have stayed there, probably Williams would have grown bigger than Flagstaff, maybe. Now, you never know. And the reason they moved is because it was logging with trucks. It wasn't coming in with train or whatever you call it. The logs were getting to be too far, so they decided to move to Flagstaff to come down here to Happy Jack and __________. And after that, after they sold out here, they came over here.
Munoz: Southwest.
Hernandez: Southwest. And then they didn't last that long, because of the logs. And then all this about the spotted owl and all that, you know.
Munoz: (laughs) Yeah, I know that. (laughs) On traditional foods, what would you say was a traditional meal or food prepared at home when you were growing up? (
Hernandez: Yeah.) What was it?
Hernandez: Beans, potatoes, sopa, whatever you could get. And I remember my dad, during the Depression, he used to bring a little sack of flour sometimes or something. Depression was in '32, around there. I remember in the Depression, because I was five years old already, during the Depression. As I say, my dad used to bring whatever he could __________. But, like I said, just like I'm telling you, you know, we didn't have too much problem, because all these people out there, they had a lot of meat, let's put it that way, and then a lot of cows.
Munoz: Right, there was a lot of farming over there, and ranching, so you guys kind of kept yourselves with vegetables ___________.
Hernandez: I used to bring, like I say, milk, every day, fresh milk, every day. And my brothers, they worked over there with him. Since they had all those animals, they helped him feed 'em or whatever. They used to bring a chicken or _________ like I say, every year he would give us a small pig. Oh, we could have had more stuff like that, but I don't know, my dad never thought about having a bunch of like rabbits and chickens and all that. Probably too much problem, you know. And next door right there is a place where the Gonzales _________, part of that family over there, you know. They had a little, what do you call that, a little place over there where you bring the cows and milk 'em, and this and that, see--horses. Mostly more milk, because....
Munoz: Where was that at?
Hernandez: In Williams. They used to have a big, like I say, close to the cemetery, and then he used to live up there, you know.
Munoz: Cemeteries in Williams, you only knew of one? Is that the only one still sitting there?
Hernandez: That I knew of. That's it.
Munoz: What street is it on, do you remember?
Hernandez: I don't think they call that street. They call it the Old 66, where the old [Highway] 66 used to run, right below. You know, the main drag used to be 66 right there.
Munoz: Is the cemetery....
Hernandez: It's just on the side. And then they built that, what do you call that, Denny's up the hill. And then that motel, and then the cemetery. But as far as I know, I think the only cemetery that I know of is that one right there. Not here, like here, you know, like that ____________.
Munoz: Do you remember having any role models, someone that you thought you'd want to grow up and be like?
Hernandez: And be what?
Munoz: A role model. You know, like a mayor or a teacher or someone that you admired, that you wanted to be like when you were small, that you admired. You know, a lot of people grow up and say, "I want to be an astronaut."
Hernandez: Yeah, "I want to be so-and-so, or an astronaut." I never thought about that, let's put it that way. I don't know who I thought.... I never heard of anybody that said, "I'd like to be like this baseball player," or something like that, like a football player--not that I remember anyway.
Munoz: Not like you hear it now, huh?
Hernandez: Not like you hear it now. Now it's different.
Munoz: Okay, now I'll go to discrimination. Let's look at Williams community. Was there discrimination there, do you remember? Or were you too young to even notice that there was....
Hernandez: I think I was too young. But I don't think there was discrimination. Well, discrimination is going to be, no matter what. Discrimination means a big word. It could be anything.
Munoz: Whatever, right. That's very true. Let's say the Hispanic from the white, did they segregate?
Hernandez: Yeah, we weren't even segregated. All the people in Williams, like across the tracks here, _______, our boundary line was [Texas?] as far as I'm concerned. Now over there, the tracks, a lot of Spanish people, Munozes, Coronas, start from all those people, and that's where they had that section also in Williams, you know. Nothing but people from Mexico used to work in there--the Lizardes, and oh, every____. Same thing, Mexicans all over.
Munoz: Okay, like Corona, I remember him. Gil Corona.
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: He was from Williams, huh?
Hernandez: Corona. Munozes __________, she's a teacher here at Parks, I think.
Munoz: At Parks?
Hernandez: At Parks. We grew up together, all those kids up there, ________.
Munoz: Is Munoz her maiden name?
Hernandez: Viatandos--not Viatandos--Vianuevas. _____________. Martinez. You know, everybody. Los Rojos, I used _______________. La Ramirez, okay, what's his name?
Munoz: Andy?
Hernandez: Andy Ramirez.
Munoz: Okay, Williams, comparing it to Flagstaff, there wasn't much there. But when you moved to Flagstaff, you were a little older, and you begin to notice these things, too. Okay, tell me what discrimination meant.
Hernandez: Well, when we're talking about discrimination, like they say, here at South Beaver, not much Mexicans and Indians, as far as [that goes], I guess. I don't know what you call those African Americans. They used to call them all kinds of names.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: They had their own place up there. But, they used to live, like you say, in here, up there. But like we.... We didn't bother it, because I worked with them, you know. I was working with them.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: At the depot.
Munoz: But when you were fourteen?
Hernandez: Oh, when I was here, fourteen, everything, you know, it was discrimination, as far as that goes. When I got here, I don't know how a lot of guys, like I remember los Ramirez, they went to Emerson--Leo Ramirez, Mario Ramirez, and even, I think one of 'em, Mario Ramirez, got kicked out of Emerson when South Beaver opened. As a matter of fact, everybody--I read some of their stories, especially right there in South Beaver. They say that they don't.... And one Friday they said, "Well, okay, you guys pick up all your stuff. You're going to your own school," which was [South Beaver?].
Munoz: Right. That's why South Beaver--'cause Emerson, they were tryin' ____________.
Hernandez: Over there at the college.
Munoz: Normal school.
Hernandez: I don't know, what the heck was that school that they had in there?
Munoz: Training school.
Hernandez: Training school! The training school. I never heard of a Mexican going over there. I don't know __________.
Munoz: Yeah.
Hernandez: Maybe through the school.
Munoz: Actually, my mom went to training school. And some people from the chantes also went there, so it was depending. I don't know how that worked, to be honest with you, or how they were getting registered.
Hernandez: Because in those six years, just the foundation of the college was there, that's all. Grandes _____________.
Munoz: So you remember when it was a field?
Hernandez: The field was right there, right across from South Beaver School, the football field, right in there. And then, right here is where the swimming pool is--yeah, right there.
Munoz: The baseball field.
Hernandez: _____________ as a matter of fact, the baseball field was right there.
Munoz: Yeah, I remember that.
Hernandez: Because Frank used to, a lot of flies were coming over his house ________. It's a baseball field.
Munoz: So you personally, how would you describe the discrimination--or did you feel it? Or were you discriminated [against] when you were growing up here in Flagstaff?
Hernandez: I don't know.
Munoz: ________.
Hernandez: Discrimination is, like I said, is a lot of stuff. You never saw it ______ like me. I wasn't discriminated. Like I say.... Of course, I went with a lot of white people, because we went to high school when I was over there. Everybody was going to high school, because there was only one high school.
Munoz: Right. And what year was that?
Hernandez: Well, I came here in '14, '27, '41, '42 when I came here to school, aqui, a la escuela. And everybody, we used to go down there to that school. Of course it was a school as one building--entonces now it's like _________.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: So I don't think you had any choice, huh?
Munoz: How did you get treated by teachers?
Hernandez: Oh, I can't complain. I think they were all nice, as far as I'm concerned. It never did bother me. That never bothers, or they'd never say, "You sit way over there, and you sit here," and this and that.
Munoz: Okay, so you didn't see it affect other people or yourself.
Hernandez: But, as it comes down on the sides _______ when you were going here, __________, it's like I'm saying.
Munoz: Uh-huh, from ________.
Hernandez: But I never was told that, "All Mexicans sit over there," this and that. I remember Mr. Redman, he was a nice man. ___________ especially. Every time we used to go into his class, the first thing, we always picked him first, because he had a habit of throwing erasers. He was left-handed, and I'll never forget him. He was real nice with all of us. Well, I think all the teachers, there's only teacher there that I hated, that was old Mrs. McNerney, and I don't care ________. On account of her, I quit school.
Munoz: Oh, McNerney? What did she do?
Hernandez: Well, I was already in eleventh grade, so.... Actually, it was our fault, let's put it that way. You can't blame the teacher, right? Okay.
Munoz: There's two sides to every story.
Hernandez: I remember I went with both Lucy Picardo, which in that case was Lucy Navarro, y la Lucy Mayorga, which was Abeta. Well, I used to sit on the side--not on the side. Here's one Lucy and Mary, and then Alice Buckman. She ____ in front of me. And I don't know who was in back, but I remember those girls, for one reason. It was already one afternoon, you go study room, or whatever you want to do. The last period at school, you know. So I was making my deal, and they used to hit me on my hand and break the lead. Okay? So here I go and sharpen the darned thing. Okay, it happened about two, three times. Here comes McNerney. Man, I figured she came through that row. "Pete, next time you want to sharpen your pencil, you raise your hand." Like that, kindergarten--raise your hand. I didn't say nothing. But here I am again, writing, I break my pencil. Eee! Well, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know.
Munoz: They were making it hard for you, those girls were.
Hernandez: I was debating whether to get up and sharpen the pencil. "Nah, I hate this." So finally the girls, all three of 'em, chicken, chicken, _______, chicken, chicken, you know. So then I got it. Here she comes, _______ came out of one of those, what do you call those, arenas where the little _______.
Munoz: A bullpen, huh?
Hernandez: Coming after me. "I told you next time raise your hand. You should have raised your hand. Get up and report to the principal." "Yes, ma'am." So I started reporting to the principal--it was almost time to go home. I went to my locker, threw my books in there, and I went home. The next day, I came to school and the first thing in the morning, _________, "Would Peter Hernandez please report to the principal's office." So I went over there and he told me, "Well, didn't Mrs. McNerney tell you to come and report to me?" "Yes, she did." _____________ put my books in my locker and I went home because it was gonna be time to go home, so I went home. Well, he tried to scare me. I knew he'd try to scare me. He said, "Well, I'm going to have to expel you for two weeks." I said, "No, you're not going to expel me. I just quit. You owe me fifty cents for my key," I said. Used to pay fifty cents for your towel and key.
Munoz: And this was up at the high school?
Hernandez: At the high school. I said, "You owe me fifty cents, and I'm going home." So I went home. That's one thing, first mistake I ever made ______. I said I made, that was my fault. So it did bother me, but like I say, they didn't care whether you went to school or not. So I wound up going to California, worked for the Union Pacific. And then I remember they didn't want to give me a job because I was underage.
Munoz: How old were you?
Hernandez: I was seventeen years--sixteen, seventeen. So I had to go to San Pedro and get a minor's release to work for the Union Pacific. So I got hired, and that's when they had those, remember the old [strained fingers?] that railroad that goes through there?
Munoz: Yes.
Hernandez: What I used to do is oil the wheels, put some oil. And all the girls that worked in there used to change the padding and all that. It was a lot of _________. I only worked over there one year, and then I came back. That's when I went into the service when I came back. (inaudible) But like I said, that was my mistake. And then after I got out of the service, Mr. Pearson, Peterson, or somebody, I can't remember. Even Mr. Killip ______. They sent me a letter, "Come on. Come on back to school." But, like I said, I was already making a nickel in my pocket. I said, "To heck with school." That's when I started working in Belmont. So I was already working in there, so I just.... And I went __________. But then my kids try to compare this time with me, like when _________. "Well, look at my dad, he didn't graduate, and he makes more money than this." "Yeah, but," I told them, "those are years ago. When your time comes up to work, you're going to have to have a diploma ___________." _______ the city, got a diploma. My boy Ruben didn't have a diploma, but to be a foreman or super, he had to have a diploma. So he went GED. So it paid. I told him, "You see, I told you." But they're trying to compare it with us, when we were going to work.
Munoz: Well, you had a lot of obstacles, and I don't think they understand the obstacles that you met when you were growing up, because language was a barrier, and then of course you had to help your parents. You don't see these kids going out there, earning a nickel to help their parents. You paid for a house on your own, and you helped your mother. You handed your paycheck to your mother.
Hernandez: Well, it's just like, I couldn't understand why my mom--I mean, ____________, felt sorry for my mother because going out there to this neighbors out there, just for a penny or two pennies. Can you imagine that in those years?
Munoz: Yeah. And you felt kind of, "Gee, that's an __________ thing, to go....
[END TAPE 2, SIDE A; BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE B]
Hernandez: Dad would say, "Go help that lady or something." That's one thing that my dad said, "You gotta respect ____ lady, I don't care what it is."
Munoz: Different times, huh, compared to now.
Hernandez: My dad was a very respectable man, let's put it that way. He had all that stuff in Mexico, ____________. He always.... And my dad, if we would call one of my uncles or my cousins by their first names, oh man, he'd jump on you. He's your cousin or your uncle. We never said, like, "Paul" or "Daniel"--just "uncle" all the time. My Uncle Manuel, when we were talking with him, it's "uncle," you know. Not Manny, Paul, Albert, or ________. None of that! Oh, my dad used to get me. "What?!" And we would never say anything to my mom, either. Soon as we tried to tell something to my mom or something, [he'd say] "What?!" He'd say, "Come out here. Que paso?" in Spanish.
Munoz: So he had control.
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: So he's the one that ran the household, really.
Hernandez: Well, really, yes. And my mom--well, mothers are more, you know, I shouldn't say. My mom was a very nice woman. La mujer ______.
Munoz: Well, it's interesting, because a woman in those days.... How old was your mom when she got married, do you remember, do you know?
Hernandez: My mom? I think they were about in their twenties.
Munoz: And in those days, women, it was like they were trained to serve the man, and she had no questions, she never questioned things, more than likely. Pretty much she went with the role the husband did. Not compared to nowadays. Now you question everything. Women are different now (laughs) to those days.
Hernandez: Well, yes, you're right. My dad used to teach us the best he could, let's put it that way. My dad used to tell us how to do this and that, because it pays, for one reason, because I learned a lot of stuff from him.
Munoz: To survive.
Hernandez: To survive.
Munoz: Okay, [we talked about] discrimination. How about movie houses here? What do you remember about theaters here in Flagstaff?
Hernandez: Like what?
Munoz: Movie theaters, like what movie theater do you remember going to?
Hernandez: We used to go to that Flagstaff Theater right there on San Francisco Street. ____________.
Munoz: Yeah, I remember. You know, what, I remember that. I don't know why, I feel like I [went there?].
Hernandez: The only one, they said there was that _________ whatever that movie in there, but I don't remember that _________.
Munoz: That was earlier, before you came into town.
Hernandez: Yeah, because I didn't even know about that theater. But the one in San Francisco right there, where that shoe shop used to be.
Munoz: That was where the store, wasn't it Fein's, and that jewelry store? Sweetbriar? Yeah, they turned to become stores, women's stores. That was after the theater, where the theater was down there. And it was like a cafe or something around next.
Hernandez: Yeah, the cafe was on the other side. And somebody was telling me.... I remember right there next to the old post office, next door there was a bowling alley there, because I used to work there, setting pins. There was no machine for setting pins.
Munoz: By hand?
Hernandez: But around there, somebody told me before that that used to be the old post office, ______ some kind of movie. I don't think so. I don't remember, unless it was before me.
Munoz: Yeah, way before. That's early 1920s, in that area, and you came in the forties.
Hernandez: And then after that they built the North End Theater.
Munoz: So you attended the Flagstaff Theater, and you told me where it was located. How about the dancing halls? What dancing halls do you remember?
Hernandez: The old armory.
Munoz: Where the Furniture Barn....
Hernandez: That's where most of all the dances were, at the old armory. Now you've got dance halls wherever you want to make 'em.
Munoz: Right. Because by that time, Chin Chun Chan and the ones on San Francisco, you don't remember?
Hernandez: I don't remember those. About the only one I remember is out here, because like I say, in those years, with all those gangs before. Flagstaff be like Williams, or Williams, they like _________.
Munoz: Those weren't gangs! Those were just groups of kids that were territorial. They didn't like you going to Flagstaff to pick up the girls there, and they didn't like Williams to come pick up the girls.
Hernandez: That's right.
Munoz: It's kind of funny, I laugh about it (laughs) Winslow. 'Cause I remember my tios being part of that.
Hernandez: Who?
Munoz: Mike Ceballos.
Hernandez: Oh, yeah.
Munoz: Y Sedoros [phonetic spelling] Ceballos, you know. But it's interesting. I'm like, "Why would they want...."
Hernandez: And Ray Ceballos?
Munoz: And Ray.
Hernandez: _________ when we got married.
Munoz: Oh, really?!
Hernandez: Yeah, Ray.
Munoz: When you and Irene?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: Really?! I didn't know that. Gee, what about that! I know music is one thing that you're familiar with, and I know that you started playing music, how old?
Hernandez: Long time.
Munoz: How many years?
Hernandez: When I started, let me tell you when Herman Luceros, La Reyano, what's his name? Mesa, Tony Mesa? When they first started playing music, of course they already had played music for years and years. They were known as--like when they were in Williams, known as the Syncopaters or the Nighthawks or something like that, in those years. But when I started playing music, Herman was the one, he was after me all the time, "Come on, come on!" But, in that year, I was playing ball, so I said, "No, no, I'm playing ball." I liked fast pitch.
Munoz: What year was that?
Hernandez: Hm, about thirty years ago, or more.
Munoz: In the seventies?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: When did you start? You started in the seventies, or sixties?
Hernandez: I started probably in the sixties. As a matter of fact, over here, I'll tell you where the first place I played. You know right there at Pic Quik? (
Munoz: Uh-huh.) Well, that used to be the VFW right there. Yet, that's where they had the Horseshoe, where all the greenhouses for the Saginaw workers. That's where I even started playing music right there.
Munoz: Those houses? You mean those chantes?
Hernandez: Si, los chantes _________, yeah. Oh, that was still there when I came _________.
Munoz: Right, el molino.
Hernandez: El molino, they started building everything in there, you know. And they _______ a santo right in the middle of the whole work. I ________ yesterday, ____________ because I kept on saying, "No, I don't remember."
Munoz: Chidero? They called him Chidero, I believe so. But I have his real name.
Hernandez: Right there is the first time that I played my first dance.
Munoz: So there was a VFW right there by the chantes?
Hernandez: It used to be right there. No! I don't know, but they used to call it the Catholic War Veterans, like that. The Catholic War Veterans--that's what they called it. That building, it was a house.
Munoz: So who did it belong to?
Hernandez: I don't know, I can't remember. Probably Riordan. __________.
Munoz: Okay, so you started in the late 1940s playing there, is that what you're saying?
Hernandez: Right in there, yeah. I started around there. Let's see, how old? I was young when I wanted to play. But I didn't want to play, I wanted to just go play ball. So one time Herman and [Laviano?], "Come on, come over here, we're gonna practice and play music." I say, "Oh, no." "Come on, we're practicing Tuesday." So I just happened to go over there. So we practiced Tuesday and Thursday, and Saturday we had a dance right there. And you know that dance lasted from, I think it was eight o'clock to six o'clock or five o'clock in the morning.
Munoz: The next day, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah! They were passing the hat around. You know how they pass the hat before? "Come on, keep on playing, keep on playing!" So Jesus Christ!
Munoz: What instrument were you playing?
Hernandez: I was playing guitar. I started playing guitar.
Munoz: Did you teach yourself, or did Herman teach you?
Hernandez: Well, Herman helped me a lot, he [taught] me a lot. A lot of these guitar players around here in Flagstaff, Herman [taught] them.
Munoz: A lot of them also had the ear for music.
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: Like my uncles, they said they learned by ear, music, uh-huh.
Hernandez: But Mike Ibarra and Jim Figuroa, they used to play by music.
Munoz: Oh, read music?
Hernandez: Reading music. But most of the older players that I played with, we just [played] by ear, you know. I don't even know how to read music, so what the hey? I knew a little bit, but I didn't know that much. That was my first dance I ever played. And Jesus Christ, my fingers were all--well, the chords got to look like they were in my fingers--'til six o'clock in the morning! And they still wanted some more!
Munoz: Oh, my goodness! Who attended those dances?
Hernandez: The old-timers and all the people that used to live around there. They used to get a lot of people. Those people liked to dance, I guess.
Munoz: Let's see, we'll continue with music. And you continue to play music now, is that correct?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: And you play with who?
Hernandez: The name, the group?
Munoz: Yeah.
Hernandez: Los Alegres. I've played in so many bands, but I don't play so much now, like I used to, because now, they don't have that much. You know why? Money. Money ____________. If you want to get married, it's going to cost you, you know. (laughter)
Munoz: So it didn't cost you anything when you got married?
Hernandez: Well, it didn't cost me too much. We had ________ padrinos and Salvador Cortez, he was my best man. And Vera Sandoval, she was the maid of honor. So we had muchos padrinos. But let me tell you, when we first tried to get married, me and Irene, we were gonna go just to the court and go get married. But then her sisters, "No, no, no, no! We're gonna throw this and this and that." _____________. I was working in Belmont, I didn't have no money. So I said, "We get paid Saturday, we'll go get married Saturday." That's the way we were gonna do it, but, "No, ________." We had to wait until April 30. We waited three months, _____ so I could have some money to get married. And we had one of the biggest wedding dances here, _________. Herman Lucero and Jim and all those _______. Those are the guys that played for us.
Munoz: What was their name? Were they the Syncopaters? Or were they the Najas?
Hernandez: Probably more like the Nighthawks.
Munoz: Okay, one group was Alegras. Who's the other group you played with? Los Reyes?
Hernandez: El Coyote Band. _______ del Norte. Y los Quatros Alegres. That was me and Esther and Jenny--her husband, Jenny and Esther were husband and wife, ________ St. Johns. Played with them six years.
Munoz: And this was in the years between forties and....
Hernandez: Yeah, all that time in between to now.
Munoz: Up to present, okay.
Hernandez: But I played with a lot of groups, like I said before. And then the Rumberos were the famous Rumberos. As a matter of fact, even the (snaps fingers) what's the name? Herman said, "Are you going to play with us?" ______ those guys.
Munoz: El Hargee? [phonetic spelling]
Hernandez: El Hargee. And Los Delgarios [phonetic spelling]. Of course you know Pete Montoya. Victor Caramio. All those guys used to play. Mike Viapando even played with us. And then we had Nick Lucero. Frank Martinez played a lot with us too. And even Ray Gonzales. Oh, now my boys.
Munoz: They picked up?
Hernandez: Robert played with us. Trini Logan. A lot of these guys _______.
Munoz: And now they're younger. Now you've got a younger group you're looking at.
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: Not too many oldies, huh?
Hernandez: I'm the oldest now.
Munoz: Are you the only one that plays, that has played from the past? Well, okay, Mr. Estrella is another one that has.
Hernandez: Yeah, Steve Estrella. See, my brother, Safford, used to play with Steve Estrella and Toby Armijo. And I played with Steve Estrella too, all those guys.
Munoz: What type of music would you say you played?
Hernandez: Well, when we first started, we just played nothing but Spanish music. But then, as it started, you know, they keep on like this, like after that, you know, when people would get married, like to see a Mexican with a white or white with a Mexican or something. We started playing, what do you call that?, country western. One reason, a lot of people wanted to hear country.
Munoz: It was a request.
Hernandez: So what we'd do is mix it. Even rock 'n' roll, standard music. All kind of music now. But before, when I started, it was strictly Mexican. I don't know why, but that's all there was.
Munoz: That's ____________.
Hernandez: Spanish music, you know.
Munoz: What kind of instruments did you have in your band?
Hernandez: Well, we had trumpet players, we had saxophone players, guitar, bass, keyboard, drums. Of course we had to have drums. That kept about whatever we had. Even accordion players we used to have--those instruments. But _____ Raimundo Ceballos (
Munoz: My grandpa.) he used to play what do you call that big? That used to be a bass before, see. He played that. I saw him play a lot, even when I was young, _______. I heard all those guys [play]. But I wasn't _________. I really loved music, but I never did like to play it, because I was playing baseball, like I'm telling you. Fast pitch. I was more interested in baseball than music, so I was off and on like that--until I got a little older and they threw me out of the game so much.
Munoz: Okay, let's go to the baseball then. During the time you started playing softball in Flagstaff was....
Hernandez: ___________ like I'm telling you right there, ___________.
Munoz: Oh, the box.
Hernandez: I don't know, about eighteen years, _________ eighteen years.
Munoz: When you played for the box factory?
Hernandez: Coconino Box Factory. That was the old-timers __________. They weren't even old-timers, they were all young kids.
Munoz: They were young at the time.
Hernandez: Yeah. You know, in sports, I loved to play _____ bowling.
Munoz: What position did you play in softball?
Hernandez: Second base. That was my best position, in-field.
Munoz: And you played baseball up until just recently when you said....
Hernandez: Sixty-two years was the last time I ever got ahold of a ball _____.
Munoz: Who was the team that you played with then?
Hernandez: My family, my kids. That co-ed deal, whatever you want to call it, that they play on.
Munoz: Oh, your family, your boys and your girls.
Hernandez: Girls and some friends. ______.
Munoz: They told you you were too old, they said, "Forget it, Dad"?
Hernandez: No, they needed a pitcher, to tell you the truth, so I went out and threw the ball--I mean, pitched, what the heck.
Munoz: You also coached?
Hernandez: I coached Little League for twenty-five years.
Munoz: What were the names of the teams? Give me some names.
Hernandez: Well, the team that I had that I coached more was Los Indians. And we had Braves and we had _________, all kinds of things.
Munoz: I brought those pictures that you said you had a picture of, and you had all those people's names, right? Did you find it?
Hernandez: I think I've got it.
Munoz: Okay, we'll look at that later.
Hernandez: ___________.
Munoz: All right, we covered baseball, one of the best pastimes of your life.
Hernandez: Yeah, that was my mostly....
Munoz: You could have been a professional?
Hernandez: I should have.
Munoz: Okay, church. Community celebrations, what do you remember? What celebrations in the community do you remember?
Hernandez: Celebrating something, like the Sixteenth of September and all that?
Munoz: Do you remember that?
Hernandez: Uh-huh. In Williams they used to have the Sixteenth of September. I mean, they'd make a big, what do you call that?
Munoz: Fiesta?
Hernandez: A big deal, in those years. (both talking at same time, neither discernable)
Hernandez: What's his name, Luzano? He used to get up and give more speeches. They used to have speeches. And for the kids, for entertainment, they had something going outside, like riding--we used to run little sacks and all that stuff, you know, before, you know. And then they had a telephone pole full of grease. They had some money up there, and they push you up with like a seat, you know, with a stick. Put your hat _______ and then whoever win it, got it. But I don't think the [money was good?].
Munoz: That was in Williams?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: Who organized that, do you remember?
Hernandez: The old-timers in Williams, because that's what it was, the old-timers. ________ Mexico.
Munoz: I was going to say, that pole, was it metal?
Hernandez: No, a telephone pole, just like one of....
Munoz: Eee! ______________
Hernandez: I don't know where they got it, from the sawmill, as far as that goes.
Munoz: No one got any splinters, huh? It was too thick of grease? What did they grease it up with?
Hernandez: I don't know, but it was grease, I know. Just as dirty [as hell?]. Something funny, you know, they used to do that. But then inside [America?], they used to have it more in the American Legion. I don't think there was.... Well, we have always called that building the American Legion.
Munoz: Oh, in Williams?
Hernandez: In Williams. They used to have in there, they'd throw a banquet in there too. And they have a lot of speeches, "Viva Mexico!" and all that. Well, you know, Lucindo, he was the most, ____________, really big, you know. And they used to have those Mexican serapes on and all that. They were dressed, some with big hats, Pancho Villa get-up or something. "Remember ________." So that's why I say.... _________ got a picture here __________, how they would celebrate.
Munoz: And this is in Williams?
Hernandez: That's in Williams. But that used to be right there, and they used to call it an opera house, but I don't remember. Well, it had to be around the thirties, around there, or before. Because there's my dad. Here's my daddy.
Munoz: This is your dad?
Hernandez: My dad. ________ Senor Novarro, __________.
Munoz: So where was the building at? Oh, you said the opera house. And where was that located?
Hernandez: ____________.
Munoz: Ah, Novarro. Yeah, you can tell.
Hernandez: (in Spanish) _____________.
Munoz: And that little child is your oldest?
Hernandez: And then those people (in Spanish) __________. My kids have asked me __________. Even my mama, I don't even see my mom there. But that was probably in the twenties, again (Spanish) ________, I don't know.
Munoz: And the opera house in Williams, where was that located, what street?
Hernandez: It was located, I think it was on.... You know where the fire department is? The American Legion, the following street, going east, around there. It was there. It could have been Third Street or Fourth Street, something like that. There was a big building, grande, two-story, they used to have their meetings up there and everything.
Munoz: Where was this one, at the top and the bottom?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: The basement, would you say?
Hernandez: Yeah, mostly first floor, probably on the first floor, because the top one, it was a dancing hall.
Munoz: And this was for the Sixteenth of September?
Hernandez: Sixteenth of September, or Cinco de Mayo. You know when they used to have, or some gathering, that's where they used to go.
Munoz: Do you remember more so that they celebrated the Sixteenth or the Fifth?
Hernandez: The Sixteenth of September was a big deal. I don't know why.
Munoz: Oh, I do! The independence of Mexico from Espana.
Hernandez: I just got it because somebody gave it to me. Somebody gave it to me because of my dad. She told me, "I've got a picture of your dad and I'm going to give it to you." So they gave me that. But the only one that I....
Munoz: Jose Novarro?
Hernandez: Novarro, because like I used to see him every _______. (in Spanish) _________.
Munoz: Oh, okay. This would be interesting because I could probably get people to identify a lot of these people.
Hernandez: (inaudible)
Munoz: From Williams, yeah. How interesting. That's interesting. Okay, how about here in Flagstaff, what do you remember, celebrations here?
Hernandez: Well, I don't know. The only, Fourth of July _______. That's the most one that they celebrate here.
Munoz: Right. That you remember when you moved here, anyway. In Williams, we talked about no segregation, discrimination over there. So the church, there was a Catholic church for everybody?
Hernandez: For everybody. It was right there, let's see, that was on Fourth Street ________. That's the only church there was, as far as I knew--the Catholic, anyway.
Munoz: So when you came here....
Hernandez: It's not the new one. The new one is the other way. Now they got a new one.
Munoz: So when you came here and you realized that there might be another church, but you could only attend one of those churches, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: ______________.
Hernandez: (in Spanish) _______________ Guadalupe.
Munoz: So how many churches would you say were in Williams?
Hernandez: I just remember one, Catholic, because we were all Catholic.
Munoz: And one cemetery, I guess, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah. I don't remember another church. There could have been another one, but I don't remember.
Munoz: And funerals, your dad died here in Flagstaff?
Hernandez: Yeah, he passed away here in 1965. Y mi mama __________ in 1974.
Munoz: Now, at that time, the funerals and all that were....
Hernandez: In the church.
Munoz: Our Lady?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: And do you remember, as a child, ever going to any funerals or wakes in Williams?
Hernandez: In Williams? (pause) Yes, so many people would go. (in Spanish) _______________.
Munoz: Yeah, very united.
Hernandez: Oh, very united, you know. When something happens, everybody knew right away, everything, so they try to....
Munoz: Uncle Ray, when I asked him, and they lived in the chantes, he said that it was such a large family, and the chanteros were such a large family that they felt everyone's hurt, everyone's happiness, and everyone's loss. It was just one big family.
Hernandez: There was a lot of gatherings ____ before, you know. _________ gente.
Munoz: Yeah, one big family. Nothing like that now.
Hernandez: You don't see that here.
Munoz: You're right. So the services, when you were a little kid, were the services conducted at home, or were the services in the church?
Hernandez: Some were. I think they were in the church. Pero the priest to come to the house, tambien. You know, people. It's just like the doctor, you know, before. The doctor used to go to your house. Now you gotta go to him!
Munoz: Times have changed. And the mortuary in Williams, where was that located?
Hernandez: It was on Fifth Street, I think, but to the west side.
Munoz: There was only one mortuary?
Hernandez: Yeah. It wasn't even a big mortuary. (in Spanish) __________.
Munoz: Who owned it? One room, huh?
Hernandez: And I think after that, the mortuary.... No, I was thinking they converted, because now the mortuary, I don't even know where it is now, to tell you the truth, because everything is (in Spanish) ____________, new church, you know, new church. Where in the heck is the mortuary?
Munoz: Was that church.... Oh, the mortuary _______. I went to my Tia....
Hernandez: Someplace around there is the mortuary. I'm pretty sure it's someplace around there, _______.
Munoz: I'm going to ask you for some names of people to contact in Williams that still live there that you might know, that I can do an oral history on them in Williams, because I think that would be interesting. Okay, how would you describe weddings and bap[tismals]?
[END TAPE 2, SIDE B; BEGIN TAPE 3, SIDE A]
Hernandez: Weddings over in Williams before, they were (Spanish) ________, just like a regular wedding, just like you have here (Spanish) _________. Of course I wasn't that much, that long over there for weddings. I was too young. But the weddings that you had out there, eh, __________.
Munoz: Were they conducted at home, or at the church?
Hernandez: No, they were conducted [in] church, that I remember, that I know. The only ones anyway, they would come back to the church. They say years long before that they used to conduct it at the house. But I never saw one, so I can't tell you.
Munoz: About baptismals, do you remember? Well, your wedding, you gave me a description of your wedding. That was because you decided to save the money to have a nice wedding.
Hernandez: Yeah, we had a very nice wedding ___________ that's one thing. I think it's one of the big ones that really happened here.
Munoz: Here at the armory.
Hernandez: I mean, it was....
Munoz: What year was it?
Hernandez: In '49.
Munoz: Okay, and then the weddings and baptismals, would you say they were traditional?
Hernandez: Yeah, I guess so.
Munoz: Traditional, I mean like what your parents probably thought __________.
Hernandez: No, when we got married, you know, I don't know, like ___________ her dad, ________ Mexico, and my dad (Spanish) _______________ arrived. So right after we got married, we went to his house, and he put us in the little bedroom or linen closet or something, and they put the (Spanish) ___________.
Munoz: Oh, is that where they put the rosary over?
Hernandez: After everything was over, (Spanish) _________, you're married _______________.
Munoz: The blessing.
Hernandez: The blessing, in this house, right there. That's where all this happened, at the house.
Munoz: Oh, okay.
Hernandez: Not at the church. Well, at the church you already had a blessing by the padre, but then after that, I guess they had a tradition for that, I guess. Her folks, you know. But her dad, ___________. In other words, you're from this sack to another sack ___________.
Munoz: You've been accepted to the family.
Hernandez: Yeah, uh-huh.
Munoz: Was Irene's father pretty strict?
Hernandez: No, her dad was very nice. Even when _______ was going on with her. As a matter of fact, well, you know how when you go out and dance and that, I used to wait for her. And I was going to school, we were going to Flagstaff High School. I knew Irene, real young. I think she was, when I came here to Flagstaff I met her right away, so we started going out together. And when she started going to high school, I used to go by her house and walk and wait for her, and then both of us would go up to high school. ______ bike and doesn't walk back and forth, okay. That happened for quite a while, and then finally it hit dad. He called me, he said, "It doesn't look good, (Spanish) _____________." He told me, "If you want to go out with Irene, I want you to come and knock on the door and go in and (Spanish) ____________," or something like that, you know. Now, that's one thing he.... I don't know whether that's the way they do it over there.
Munoz: He thought that was more proper.
Hernandez: Yeah, instead of, oh, I don't know.
Munoz: Just waiting for her at the door.
Hernandez: Or on the street or something. No, he gave me permission to go see her and take her to wherever we wanted to go. And then I went in the service and the same damned thing, same thing __________.
Munoz: Again. So you had to start all over.
Hernandez: _________ Irene, until I was twenty-two years and she was twenty-one. That's when we got married. But they were real nice. It's just like my folks, they really like Irene. Oh, _______, Irene.
Munoz: What type of meals or traditional foods were served at your wedding or at the baptismals that you remember?
Hernandez: First thing that was served was chocolate with pan mexicano. My dad bought a fifty-gallon Mexican bread from Williams. I don't know whether they used to make bread here. Over in Williams was the best Mexican bread anybody could ever make. They had a big _______, you know, how to cook it. (Spanish) ___________________ chicken or whatever.
Munoz: Mole, uh-huh.
Hernandez: And potatoes and beans and rice and whatever, and beans and all that. It was something like that--a regular Spanish meal, instead of steaks and all that.
Munoz: Sounds good! Okay, let's see, what stories could you share about Depression that you can remember? You were in Williams at that time, weren't you?
Hernandez: I was in Williams, and I was only five years old, so I don't remember much of Depression, because like I said (Spanish) ________, like I say, we never suffered much _________ because President Roosevelt, that's when he opened the WPA [Works Progress Administration] and all that for kids to go work. And C.C. [Civilian Conservation Corps], that's when it was organized, during these times, during Depression, to get some money. That's why I don't think the Depression was that ___________ real bad around here. I mean, I don't know about how it was in other countries--I don't know, you know. But to us, it was....
Munoz: Some people explain it as it affected them, and other people it didn't affect. But you know, they always had something to eat, because people, like you say, you know, like, for instance, here....
Hernandez: Well, during the Depression I never heard that people were starving people ________, because _______ or something like that. I never heard nothing like that. But like I said, we were, to go, we were very (Spanish) _________. They had a big _________ you know. That's when I started learning milking cows and all that stuff so we could have something.
Munoz: Right. That was at seven years old. Imagine, how many kids are going to go out and work at that age?
Hernandez: Well, my dad, like I said, my dad was a hard man. You can ask any of my brothers--especially Manuel ______, and [Loper?]. He'll tell you he was a mean man. But my dad, I think he might have gone, like years and years ago, like in Mexico, since he came from ________. He had a rough time when he was growing [up]. That's why he ran away.
Munoz: And that's all he knew, and he wanted you guys to survive, so he taught you how to survive, by working.
Hernandez: My dad didn't believe in sitting down. Well, of course there were no TVs or none of that, but my dad didn't believe in that you know, _______. When we were growing, we were working. Like when we were here, like I was telling _____ Riordan. We were there. There was no such thing as going down to the movies, because we didn't even have a car. There's nothing but work. And my mom used to get mad at my dad and say, "Leave the kids alone," in Spanish, you know, (in Spanish) "__________." All we were doing is cutting wood for the winter. We filled a room as big as my front room. And I mean, you don't throw it in. Each piece was stacked. And for nothing! When we left, my dad was very generous, he gave it to the people. And here we are.... My dad was very generous. My dad would do anything for anybody. That's one thing I'll say about my dad, he was....
Munoz: I know you might feel sometimes, and you say, "he's mean"--well, that's all he knew. You were boys and he had to teach you how to survive and work, because that's what you were going to end up doing.
Hernandez: Yeah. I mean, he told us when we were young, "If you guys want to have something, you're going to have to learn how to work. They're not going to give [you anything]." And he's right.
Munoz: Okay, how about crime in Williams?
Hernandez: Crime wasn't like now. In Williams _______. The only crime out there that I think, was this bootlegging. ____________. But let me tell you something, there was only one policeman in Williams, by the name of Bill [Camel?]. I'll never forget that, Bill Camel was his name, he was a policeman. I think he was the only policeman. I don't know whether we had any more policemen __________. But....
Munoz: Was he a policeman or a sheriff?
Hernandez: Sheriff, yeah. He was a sheriff. But up to this day, I still say that he was given under the table to keep quiet. My dad used to make beer, and he used to make root beer for us. A lot of guys and a lot of other people, they used to make. That's when all that wine, you know, __________ vino de papas, you know.
Munoz: Yeah.
Hernandez: That's a fact. And you know, we used to help these people out there, and you know what, they used to ___________ give us a shot of wine. And it's a wonder we never got to get drunk or something, you know. And Emilio Villa, he had one of the biggest places up there--nothing but corn. (in Spanish) _______________. I mean, a huge one. I think it covered more than two blocks. He had a big ______ and a big white house. But, corn wine or whatever you want to call it, a lot of that stuff, you know. Everybody used to--I think it was bootlegging out there.
Munoz: Oh, sure, sure. But because it was against the law, a lot of people don't want to [talk about it?].
Hernandez: My mom used to get mad at my dad because people that like to drink, they used to go all times of hours, even at three o'clock in the morning. That's what my mom didn't like, which I don't blame her, ________. They go out there and knock on the door (raps table with knuckles). (in Spanish) _________. I think my dad gave more beer than selling the darned thing. ________ that's the way I feel.
Munoz: Where did he make it?
Hernandez: At the house. He put one of those kegs, big barrels, or whatever you want. Made it right there in the house. All that bootlegging was made in the house in those years. I don't know now. Everybody had his own.
Munoz: So where did he get the bottles?
Hernandez: The bottles? That's one thing I don't know. My dad used to make beer, but he had bottles, and bottles for the root beer. Where did he get the bottles, I don't know. Now, that's one thing I can't tell you, because I don't know, and he had plenty of bottles, to tell you the truth. But a lot of those guys they didn't throw the bottles like you do here.
Munoz: No.
Hernandez: Those bottles were precious.
Munoz: They were expensive, yes.
Hernandez: So I figure, I think the [bill?] that my dad was filling on, they'd take the bottle up there just to get it refilled or something.
Munoz: Okay, so there was [no] outstanding crime. Were there any killings?
Hernandez: They didn't claim it more like a crime, you know.
Munoz: Not the Prohibition.
Hernandez: But it was like, remember (in Spanish) ______________ Al Capone _____________. Of course that's a big deal. But here it's nothing but a little ________, and it wasn't a big city ________.
Munoz: Right, there wasn't that much going on. So about killings or knifings, was there any of that?
Hernandez: Oh, no, I never heard of anybody getting killed. The only one that probably got killed is probably in an automobile or whatever.
Munoz: Or at the sawmill.
Hernandez: Yeah. Like Jimmy Gonzales, he got killed flying his own plane--he crashed.
Munoz: Where?
Hernandez: In Williams.
Munoz: Jimmy Gonzales was a pilot?
Hernandez: He was a pilot, he had his own plane.
Munoz: Is that the espanol that had the money?
Hernandez: [Yes.] He got killed in a plane. I think that was his own plane.
Munoz: His personal plane? And that was at Williams?
Hernandez: Yes, in Williams. ________ a musician, Paul Cerano, I think he was.
Munoz: Paul who?
Hernandez: Yeah, Paul Cerano. When he was playing with Herman and all those ___________ in Williams. He got killed in a car accident. It was a car accident.
Munoz: All right, we covered Prohibition. Your dad played a good part in making his own booze, okay. He sold it. Well, you say he gave it away. You know what, I have had so many of those stories that they gave it away instead of made money off of it. It's interesting. He was the only one in your family that made it? Did you help him?
Hernandez: Uh-huh, yeah, my dad. ________. I don't remember my grandpa never. My dad, I don't know, he tried experiments _________, I don't know.
Munoz: Where did he buy his materials, do you remember?
Hernandez: The materials? I don't know.
Munoz: You were too young. Means of transportation. You were always walking, huh?
Hernandez: Ninety percent. Well, nobody had that kind of money to buy a new Ford or whatever. The only one that had a Model "T" was Jose Sanchez, the only one that I remember. I'll never forget that. And then there was another, Mr. Lebst [phonetic spelling]. He had an antique _____________ about 1914, some of those that were made out of ________. Ah, man. But of course when you have money, you have money.
Munoz: Okay, during the time you were growing up, did you work? Yeah, your dad had you doing all types of work when you were growing up, huh, as a young person.
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: And then you continued to do all types of jobs. When you were going to school, or whenever you thought you were going to school, and you were off for the summer, did you work then as well?
Hernandez: Yeah, uh-huh.
Munoz: So all year 'round you worked?
Hernandez: Yeah, I used to work. My dad, he always told me, "If you want something, you're going to have to work."
Munoz: Okay, let's talk about medicine. What types of medicines were used at home, do you remember?
Hernandez: For cuts, iodine. _____________, just iodine _______. And then if you had fever, they used to put us like an Indian with potatoes and vinegar or whatever you want to call it. And that's for the fever.
Munoz: So you used to go to bed with papas on your forehead, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: Con ________.
Hernandez: Si, _________. Headaches and something. I don't think there was much pills.
Munoz: Okay, and the doctors in Williams, who were they?
Hernandez: There's one doctor, I don't know, I'm kind of ________. Dr. Sechrist was out there. I don't remember ________. I just don't remember. But the doctors over there, they wasn't much of a doctor, let's put it that way. You know what they used to call them? Horse doctors.
Munoz: Who was that?
Hernandez: But I don't know his name. The only reason I say, you know, in those years you know, they used to iron with las plantas.
Munoz: On top of the stove, uh-huh.
Hernandez: Up on the stove, you know. So when I hurt myself, my hand, by cranking that Model "T" of Sanchez, you know, it'd backfire on me and hit me on my arm here, and this part of my arm went under my hand. I stayed over in Williams--when my dad moved over to Riordan, I stayed in Williams with Herman Cisneros' parents. That's when I got hurt. And he took me to his doctor, but I don't remember his name. I didn't even know the man, to tell you the truth. And his wife was ironing, and he said, "Let me use your ironing board for a minute." All right, so she stopped. He put my arm like this and he crunched it like, "Aiyee!" I never hurt so much. He pulled that arm like that. _________ it hurt so much. __________. He pulled it too tight to set it, and he's the one that set my arm. When my dad came to Williams from Flagstaff, (in Spanish) _____________, the one that baptized me, actually. He had told my dad what happened, so my dad said, "Okay, get your stuff together." That's when I went to Riordan. He took....
Munoz: So you came to the hospital over here?
Hernandez: Well, he brought me from over there, from that doctor, down to Riordan. And that was it. It was almost healed anyway, because about a week, I guess. And that was it.
Munoz: So doctors made housecalls at that time?
Hernandez: Yeah. Oh, yeah, doctors ______.
Munoz: And you don't remember his name?
Hernandez: No, that's one thing I don't remember. We didn't use.... Nosotros, I think we were pretty well healthy, let's put it that way. We never needed a doctor or anything--not that I remember. ______ you went to see a doctor.
Munoz: So your mom took care of your fevers and your cuts.
Hernandez: Mom. Or una senora que su _______________. She would come.
Munoz: So there were curranderas in Williams?
Hernandez: Uh-huh, they used to be (in Spanish) _______________________.
Munoz: Who were they, do you have any idea?
Hernandez: I don't know what her name [was]. They were old ladies that were smarter than the doctors are a lot of times.
Munoz: Did I ask if you were born at home, or were you born at the hospital?
Hernandez: I don't know, I think I was born at the house. That's [one thing] I don't know. In those years, a lot of kids were born in the house, by the help of a neighbor or something.
Munoz: Right, women all around. Okay, so you don't know of any curranderas and so on and so forth. Folklore. What stories do you remember? You know, like La Urona.
Hernandez: We heard that story up there in Williams, because the Santa Fe dam was right there. They used to tell us esta La Urona, and this and that, at twelve o'clock, this and that, because they used to say that La Urona, because somebody drowned in that dam or whatever the case might be. So that was the only (in Spanish) ______________. When we were young, we waited one night, and it was windy as heck, and we went out to that dam out there, just curious. I don't think we made it out to the dam (laughter), we got scared and we came back. That's the only time. (in Spanish) _______________. I don't know if it's true. A lot of people (in Spanish) _____________. But I don't know whether that's true, to tell you the truth.
Munoz: And no one appeared in front of you. (laughs)
Hernandez: Yeah. (laughs)
Munoz: Okay, sheepherding. Did your father do any sheepherding?
Hernandez: Yeah, he did when he came from Mexico, as a young kid.
Munoz: Oh, we talked about the Poquets maybe, possibly.
Hernandez: I think that was their name, was Poquet, (in Spanish) _____________. He knew that [trail] from Williams to Phoenix, every winter, to take 'em down to Phoenix.
Munoz: En caballo, huh?
Hernandez: Well, they did most of it walking--my dad did--only walking. He had a sheep dog or whatever ___________. (in Spanish) __________ but I don't know who. (in Spanish) ______________. That's why my dad, he got to be a heck of a cook. My dad could make comida.
Munoz: So he had to maintain his own camp, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: So there was only two, do you remember?
Hernandez: He said only two of 'em. I don't know who it was.
Munoz: How many sheep, do you remember?
Hernandez: I think it was a bunch of sheep, that's all he said. (in Spanish) ____________. Fifty or more, I don't know. A big herd. He said he used to __________.
Munoz: I'm going to go to your _______ when you were in the service. They took you, because it was during World War II. Where did you have to go?
Hernandez: When I was going overseas, we were going towards....
Munoz: I'm talking about here in Flagstaff. What building, or where did you have to meet? Tell me the process of how that came together.
Hernandez: Well, when I went into the service, _________ used to be Procnold [phonetic spelling] or whatever. That's where the Selective Service was. So I had to report there. And then from there they sent me to Phoenix, and we went through a physical and this and that. And out of twenty-one, seven of us only passed, because some 'em _________ or flatfoot or deaf or whatever you want to call it--for some kind of reason. So I wound up going to Sacramento, up there--some camp over there, I don't even remember no more. And there is where they gave me all my shots. You get a haircut and all that stuff to prepare you. So then from there, they put me on the train. I thought we were going _______ Camp Roberts in California, but a lot of 'em took my orders--they told me that I was supposed to go to Texas. _______ some California, Texas, all the western ________. So from there I went to camp in Texas, and I took my training there in Campbell, Texas. Then I got a ten-day furlough and I came over here, and I was supposed to take advanced training that they give you advanced training. And they tell you, my orders were to report to Paris, Texas. So I went over there, and it was on a Saturday that I reported. The Sunday, they woke us up at one o'clock in the morning and they told us.... You're green, you know, you don't know what the heck's going around, but you learn fast. So [they] said, "Start turning in your clothes and everything to the supply and get your...." They gave us khakis. So they gave you khakis someplace around the South Pacific--that's where we were going to wind up. So from there _________ San Pedro, California. From there, they loaded us in a ship _______ go overseas. And I'll never forget, I was 1,032 troop to board that _____, because they put your number.
Munoz: When you're boarding?
Hernandez: On your steel helmet, like that. So from there we went up towards the Aleutian Islands and it took us thirty-one days to go down because they took us down toward the Philippine Islands. When we got down to the Philippine Islands, Germany had already surrendered and all that. It was in '45. So then from there, we stayed aboard, going up north. So we were going to go in the invasion of Japan. We were told--well, we weren't told, but we knew. You know, old-timers and that, because there were some troops from Germany that came on. They were all mad because they had already fought in Germany, and they put 'em goin' into Japan, you know. But we were right there close to all that, down in the Pacific, see. But they let us in the ship, and they tell us we were gonna go to Japan. ___________ all kinds of ships were in there. [Level?] from there, well, President Truman gave the okay to drop the atomic bomb. So that's what saved us. They predicted that 500,000 of us--I say "of us," we were all there--on the first wave was gonna get killed. That's what they predicted. And then they was supposed to be goin' in the first wave like that, and they were gonna wait three months after that to send the second wave in, _____________. They had already _______ a plan, you know, how it was gonna be. But I was just one of those lucky that I didn't get to the real deal, or else I would have gone in there. But it was during World War II, you know.
Munoz: When you left, how did your parents feel about that, do you remember?
Hernandez: Well, it's just like any other parent. You know, I was barely eighteen years.
Munoz: What did your dad tell you?
[END TAPE 3, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B]
Hernandez: ... seventeen years I wanted to join the navy, but my mom had already given the okay, but I needed my dad's signature, but my dad wasn't here, he was in California at that time. So they refused me. Well, they didn't take me, you know. So then after that, (inaudible). I was just getting close to eighteen anyway, so then that's when I got drafted and went into the army.
Munoz: But you wanted to join the navy, you said?
Hernandez: Yeah, I wanted to go to the navy, but they didn't want me because I needed my dad's [signature]. That's when I got mad with McNerney and I quit school.
Munoz: You were just not a happy camper then, huh?
Hernandez: Unt-uh.
Munoz: Well, Pete, looks like we've come to an end here. (laughter) It does take a long time.
Hernandez: It's a lot of time. Then when I came here to Flagstaff, everything was a lot different, than in Williams.
Munoz: So you've seen it grow.
Hernandez: You know, when I got married, I lived in Casas de los ___________ Fuego, free. Then over here, as a matter of fact, I lived over here, where I made my mom the house, but I didn't want to live there. I wanted to be on my own. So finally after all those years, we decided to buy here.
Munoz: So did you build this house?
Hernandez: No, it was already built. ________ put all these cabinets here. That's why I never took 'em down, I never wanted 'em down. ______ remodeling. My dad made it, see, so that's why I left it like this.
Munoz: Who did you buy the property from?
Hernandez: From the Millers--American _________ like that. As a matter of fact, they were getting divorced. She wanted $4,000 and he wanted $4,000, so they came out in the paper that it was for sale, first come, first served. So I told Irene--I was already working in Belmont--I told Irene, "Make sure you get over there before seven ___________. Make sure you get over there before seven. Whoever goes in there ______ because there was three people who wanted...." Irene was the first one, so that's why we _______. As a matter of fact, my dad gave me $500. All I had was $500, all we had was $500 that day. So they wanted $1,000 down. And I bought this property here for $8,000. That was in 1957.
Munoz: Eight thousand, wow!
Hernandez: And then a big bill hit us, __ payment _____. _______ I think it was.

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PETE LUNA HERNANDEZ INTERVIEW
Los Recuerdos Oral History Project
Interview 68-31
[BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[The date is September 13,] the year 2000. The time is 1:50. This is Delia Ceballos Munoz with Los Recuerdos del Barrio in Flagstaff, at NAU SEA.
Munoz: I'm going to have Mr. Hernandez introduce himself.
Hernandez: Pete Luna Hernandez.
Munoz: Your address?
Hernandez: My address is 424 South Leroux, in Flagstaff, Arizona.
Munoz: And your date of birth?
Hernandez: And date of birth is February 5, 1927.
Munoz: And we'll start with having you introduce your parents. And your parents' names were?
Hernandez: My dad was Pedro ________mirez Hernandez, and my mom was Dolores Luna Hernandez.
Munoz: Related to any Lunas here in Flagstaff?
Hernandez: Oh, the Lunas here in Flagstaff are my uncles, like Albert and Joe ________ and all those guys.
Munoz: I didn't know that.
Hernandez: They're from Williams. The only one, Albert was from Flagstaff, but he passed away about five years ago, or something like that.
Munoz: And your parents, where were they from?
Hernandez: They were from Santa Tecas [phonetic spelling], Mexico.
Munoz: Both of them, your mom and dad?
Hernandez: Yeah, both.
Munoz: What type [of jobs] did they have before they came to the United States, do you remember?
Hernandez: Well, let's start with my mom. My mom was a housewife, she never did work that I knew of. And my dad, when he came here, he was about _____ years old, but he came from Mexico with a family by the name of Gonzales. The Gonzales family was going to California, so my dad, when he passed, like they used to say [contraban?], ______ Gonzales. So he went out and stayed in Williams. Then he worked as a sheepherder for a couple of years or something like that. During the winter he used to go all the way to Phoenix, so he knew that land like a map of whatever you want to call it.
Munoz: So he worked as a sheepherder in Williams?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: With who, do you remember?
Hernandez: I can't remember, [Cool Cat?] or something like that.
Munoz: The Cool Cats?
Hernandez: It could have been ________. I'm not too sure, though. And then from there....
Munoz: What year was this?
Hernandez: Oh, that must have been in, let's see, about [1918], during World War I, around there. He was too young to go into the service.
Munoz: How old was he then?
Hernandez: He must have been about, well, seventeen years. And then from there, he started working with the sawmills. And he worked there most of his life, _____________ 'til 1941. That's when the sawmill moved here to Flagstaff. And then from there he got a job through the railroad, Santa Fe Railroad. And we lived six miles west from Flagstaff, which was Riordan in those years. So he only worked there maybe a year, or maybe not quite a year, so then we moved here to Flagstaff and he wound up going back to the sawmills, got rehired over there. He worked there until he retired, I guess. Actually, he didn't retire, he got a stroke, back in the sixties. Yeah, in the sixties, along there, when he got a stroke. Then he passed away in those days.
Munoz: When you say the railroad, like in section housing?
Hernandez: No. When I talk about the railroad, it was like we used to live in a section from there. I think they had from Riordan towards Williams, probably up to the other section [crew?], but Main, which is now Parks. So they used to work those.
Munoz: With [the trucking?].
Hernandez: It was a lot of, what do you call that? During the winter, it just happened to be during the winter, and they used to get up all the time, whenever they were called to go clean switches and so on, so nothing would happen, like an accident or something like that. I can't remember the man's name, the foreman. He was, I think his nationality was German. But it was Anita, if you remember Ray Concino [phonetic spelling], that was his wife. So she used to ______. That's why I knew her in those years--Anita. And then ___________.
Munoz: Did he ever say what brought him to the United States, your parents?
Hernandez: Well, I think, the way he talked to us, stories and everything, I think he couldn't get along with his stepfather. He said he used to push __________, and he was having too much trouble because it was during those years when a lot of farming or anything. I think he must have had a farm, I don't know whether he was a farmer or not. So one day, like I say, he got mad and he decided to run away ________. And I don't know how he got together with the Gonzales family, but he heard that they were coming to California, and eventually, I guess, during those years, I say maybe there wasn't too much problem in passing from Mexico to, like they do now.
Munoz: Right, right.
Hernandez: Because that's where they came out __________. _______ come up, _______ whoever they wanted to. They just happened to get _________. That's all he used to say. I don't remember him mentioning the name of (
Munoz: First name.) the Gonzales. So he came as far as Williams and he got--I don't know how he happened to meet this family, the Luceros [phonetic spelling]. There was Herman Lucero, dad and mama.
Munoz: Uh-huh, Frances.
Hernandez: They weren't married yet, when you say Frances, but ____________. But Lucero, and then Feliciano, Lucero, that was Herman's dad, and Lucia Sandoval. Her maiden name, Lucia Sandoval.
Munoz: I've heard that name.
Hernandez: That was Herman Lucero's folks. So I guess he kind of--well, they say they kind of raised him okay.
Munoz: Your father?
Hernandez: Yeah, my dad. Until he got married with my mom.
Munoz: Where did he meet her?
Hernandez: I think here they were getting married. I can't remember what year they got married. It had to be around 1926, '25, around there, when they got married, because I was born in '27. That's why I'm kind of guessing.
Munoz: Were you the eldest __________?
Hernandez: I'm the oldest of the family, eleven of us.
Munoz: Wow! eleven kids! What a thing! Nowadays, two is too many.
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: Okay, so your father came early. Did he ever mention how he came with that family? Did they come by train?
Hernandez: Well, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, the way he talked, it was kind of [downtown?], walking, and this and that. __________. He mentioned something about a car, an old car, ________. But first when they came over, he said he came over in a wagon, [coming?] wagon, first. But then I think _______ car, like those old cars, you know. Not a sedan, like we call it. A boxcar, like a little boxcar that they had in those years.
Munoz: What year was that again?
Hernandez: Well, that should have been about 1917, because he was born in 1903, and he was fourteen years, about 1917, when he left Mexico. Now, how he met my mom, I do not know. Some coincidence, because my mom used to live, oh, what, maybe a half a mile or a mile apart. My dad used to live more on the southern part of Williams, and my mom on the northern part of Williams. So they must have met someplace along the line.
Munoz: It's kind of interesting how probably they never talked about it, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah, I know. Well, I don't know ______. The older people used to be more strict than what they are today, maybe. That's the way I feel about it.
Munoz: You're right.
Hernandez: According to them, _______ strict. But you know what, they can go now and ___________.
Munoz: They were very private, too. They didn't talk much.
Hernandez: No, they didn't talk much. But like I remember my dad used to tell us, if we ever wanted anything, we had to work for it like he did. In those days I think my dad was only working for about sixty cents a day. And we're talking about a day, [from] sunup to sundown. (inaudible) So he did the best he could __________, and it's hard _______ good job because they knew a lot of things that he knew. Just because he worked in mills, you know, _________ something like that, because my dad was a good electrician and a good plumber.
Munoz: He had other skills, yeah. But you know, what I've gathered is that because the mill was there, and that's the only place where the mexicanos could work, (whispered comment, inaudible) [it kind of left them at the mill?]. Like one of my uncles, Ray Ceballos--I don't know if you know him--he said that's what they thought Mexican people were just supposed to do, is stick to the mill.
Hernandez: Well, in those years, I think there were more people from Mexico, let's put it that way.
Munoz: Oh, yes.
Hernandez: (inaudible) Like my dad, he didn't know English, to say, that he could get a better job _______ that way. See, my dad might have known a couple of words, and that was it. But every time they would talk about me and my mom or ______ or anything, my dad used to just speak Spanish. My mom was an educated lady. I guess she went to school in Williams and got to be a citizen of the United States. And my dad never became a citizen. He couldn't understand the Constitution or whatever you have to do.
Munoz: Well, maybe that was his choice. My grandma was the same, my Grandma Luz, the one that lives over here, she never became a citizen, never. And the amount of time they've lived here, and they still....
Munoz: So then, like I say, in 1941, I think my dad, like I say, __________ I'd say a year, and then we moved to Flagstaff.
Munoz: You were born in Williams then?
Hernandez: I was born in Williams.
Munoz: Do you remember, you were born in the hospital, or were you born at home?
Hernandez: I think I was born at home.
Munoz: And of course it would have been a midwife?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Hernandez: Your mother never mentioned who the lady might have been?
Hernandez: No. Well, after, you know, people would help. I'll say one thing, you knew in the vicinity where you lived, you knew most of the people. And a lot of these people would come out and help with whatever they could. Like I remember _________. Me, I worked with the Gonzales family out there. He had cows and horses and other families would have pigs. There were, in those years, a lot of pigs _________.
Munoz: So it was like ranching, huh?
Hernandez: ________ like that. But that was just about it. You know, they used to, what do you call that, like farmers, whatever, _____________ [Lopez?] corn _____________, whatever they could get _______ like that.
Munoz: Was that at your home?
Hernandez: That's right.
Munoz: Your father would do this?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: What's the name of the street, do you remember, in Williams?
Hernandez: I think it was on South Fifth Street. And I'll never forget. The only thing that I remembered was 624 or 626--something like that. That's where we used to live on Fifth Street. __________ on the south. When we moved in there, it was kind of like one bedroom, or something like that. Most of the houses out there were real small then in those years. And then by working with the lumber, my dad, I remember when we started building out there, you know. The lumber was very, very cheap. Some of that lumber was even thrown away. You don't see that now. A lot of scrap they say was scrap. But whatever they had to get, they would get, and that's the way we built the house.
Munoz: So you were salvaging all the lumber.
Hernandez: We got at least one more room.
Munoz: So your father was really handy with his hands then, and he was a carpenter in a sense.
Hernandez: My dad built a good--like I say, he was a good carpenter and ______ with lumber. So that was no problem for him.
Munoz: When he was a young man and he came here to Flagstaff, he must have been working in areas where he picked that up, do you think?
Hernandez: Yeah. He had to pick it up here in the United States, because like I say, he was strictly more like a farmer in Mexico. That's why, like I'm telling you, they used to get up real early and then, as far as my, I guess my dad got [mad?]. He told me he told his mother that he was going to go ___________. That's why I say I think most of ____________. Like I say, when you were building, he put all the plumbing and electricity and everything like that. I don't know if he already knew it, or what, but I'm pretty sure he picked it up ____________. That's the way they built their house. Most of 'em [speak around there?]. _________ people _________. I think everybody was starting to do that _________ like a contract like we do now. You know, contractor to build anything. No, they built it. And of course some people would come and help.
Munoz: That's interesting. He started at a very young age to learn all these skills.
Hernandez: ________. Well, in my dad's case, he was so young that he had to learn pretty fast. Because, like I say, he started everything real young, talking about it. And then he never saw his mother until about forty years after.
Munoz: Oh really?! Forty years?! Wow.
Hernandez: As a matter of fact, I think it was in 1947, if I'm not mistaken--between '47 and '48. And the reason I'm sayin' that years, because I got out of service in '46, and the following year.... They used to communicate by letter, you know, and my dad used to send her maybe a thousand or whatever. So they were communicating all the time. And that year, when I got out of the service, my dad told her mother, because.... Well, in those years, if you went back to Mexico, you probably wouldn't come back. __________. So he didn't want to go. So he asked me [if I'd go?]. I said, "Yeah, I'll go for you." Had a picture, you know. And he told her mother to get some way to come over to the border at El Paso, Texas, _______. And me and a friend of mine, ______ Pena was his last name. I can't think of his first name. But we went in that year, and my grandmother was there. So that's the first time I saw my grandma, see. So when we got there, it was ________. During the week, you know, ______ the weekend. The office was open until Monday _________ o'clock in the morning. So what we did, we got a room for my grandma, and we stayed on the other side, we stayed at El Paso. We went back and forth to see her, and I gave her some money. But she didn't want to take a penny, she was poor. Well, you know, we didn't know each other very well, in other words. She was kind of maybe ashamed or I don't know. So she was used to not taking nothing but what she had. But after that we got to know each other between those two, three days [there?]. And Monday I thought I was going to have a lot of problems passing my grandmother _______. All they did was ask me a question, "Who is going to take care of her?" I said, "Well, my dad. If not my dad, I'm responsible, because I'm ________ for her." And all I had to do was sign a piece of paper. And I think they gave her some shots to come over. And that was all. It didn't even take one hour. By that time we were in El Paso [looking?] and the bus was leaving at ten o'clock in the morning, so we got to El Paso.
Munoz: How did you get over there, to El Paso, by the bus?
Hernandez: No, well, actually we got a taxi ride.
Munoz: You drove a taxi from Arizona to El Paso?!
Hernandez: No, no. How we got over there?
Munoz: Yeah, how did you get over there?
Hernandez: Oh, we went on a bus. ______ El Paso. And then crossing over, you know, there's all kinds of old cars and there used to be taxis, so we got one of those. And all you had to do, they didn't have ______ I don't know, ________ the taxi or whoever we got a ride with, ____________, little donation _________.
Munoz: It's a tip, uh-huh.
Hernandez: That's the way. And then when we got here, oh, I tell you, that's a good gathering. And they made [talk?], just like we're talking right now. ________ words that I never heard in my life in Spanish.
Munoz: So your vocabulary in Spanish was building, huh?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: Must have been a real treat for your dad, too, huh?
Hernandez: I used to love my grandma, when she used to talk, when she was in the revolution of Pancho Villa. She was with him, my grandma.
Munoz: What else did she say?
Hernandez: Well, she had a very inter.... (laughs) At that time when she was there, a lot of families ___________. I don't know what happened between my dad and my dad's father. I don't know what happened to my grandfather. Like you say, he just couldn't get along with his stepfather.
Munoz: Did he have any brothers and sisters over there maybe?
Hernandez: That's one thing I don't know. He never did mention any brothers or anything. He must have had--surely he had maybe cousins or uncles or something, because _____________ some uncles ________.
Munoz: So when you brought your grandma over, did she say what type of work she did in Mexico to survive?
Hernandez: She was an excellent baker, let's put it that way. You know how they used to make tortillas, corn tortillas. When she came over here, and even before that, _______ a lot of corn tortillas _______. When she came over here, she used to make corn tortillas every day. He would take her corn and take it over here to Vasquez.
Munoz: Yeah, el molino.
Hernandez: Yeah, right there, to grind her corn, and then make it like [bowl?] you know, and then she would make the tortillas or _______ and gorditas, and then, you know, _____________. (laughter) My grandma, when she decided to go back to Mexico, I think she was more, what do you call that?
Munoz: Traditional? What are you trying to say?
Hernandez: She liked it, maybe she was homesick. So I think that's what pulled her out. She stayed here, I can't remember, a year, a couple of years. I don't remember. She didn't actually stay that long, but she was a hard lady, she was a strong lady. And then when she went to Mexico, about probably a year or something, she passed away.
Munoz: What year was that?
Hernandez: Maybe the last of the forties, I think.
Munoz: So when you moved from Williams to Flagstaff, where did you move first? Where was your first home here in Flagstaff?
Hernandez: In Flagstaff, we moved _____ Lopez lived down there.
Munoz: On Benton?
Hernandez: Benton, yeah.
Munoz: Or Brannen--I'm sorry--Brannen.
Hernandez: Yeah, around there, where Paul Lopez, right on the corner. My uncle used to live there, an Uncle Luna Yneras [phonetic spelling]. It was my uncle. That was Albert's brother, you know.
Munoz: Luna? Nieves Luna?
Hernandez: Yes. And Nieves de Luna. So we came here, we didn't have a place to stay, let's put it that way. From there, we moved where George Barreras [phonetic spelling] lived, right there on DuPont. That's where we moved. And then we didn't stay very long, because my dad was always trying to see if we could get a house, you know. Maybe that same year or the following year, I don't know how close it was, that's when we bought right here at 521 South San Francisco, that property right there. And we stayed there until he passed away _________. Let's say from '42, because in '41 we were over there, but like I say, we only stayed a year.
Munoz: In Williams?
Hernandez: No, in '41 we were at the railroad station, at that section. We stayed there one year--close to a year, let's put it that way--and then by that he came in, because they offered him a job here at the Saginaw. And then that's why I say around _________ who were just moving around, this and that, until we found a place over here, a house. I tell you, that house, if you want to call it a house, __________ had maybe cracks that big, maybe from an inch to two inches, that went _____ the house, you know.
Munoz: Who did he buy it from?
Hernandez: I don't know, I can't remember, who was the owner. A lot of that property around there used to belong to Babbitts, just like that corner over there.
Munoz: Did he ever mention how much it cost to buy?
Hernandez: The house? We wound up paying, I think it was $1,500. But I think they put it down to $1,200, something like that, because all that work we had to do.
Munoz: It was all wood, huh, all made of wood?
Hernandez: It was wood.
Munoz: _______ insulation?
Hernandez: Yeah. And then it was all _____________ showers. There were no showers. ___________.
Munoz: The antique bathtubs, yeah.
Hernandez: Yeah, the bathtub. So we fixed it a little, and then by that time, let's see, I was already fourteen years. So what I did, I was working during school days, you know, when school was out, or ______ school in the afternoon, I was working at El Patio Cafe. That was old Jerry and Rose, the owner of that place.
Munoz: Jerry and Rose who?
Hernandez: El Patio Cafe.
Munoz: What was their last name, do you remember?
Hernandez: They had a funny name, they were Greek. He was Greek. Rose was a white lady. They were real nice. So we were there. As a matter of fact, me and my twin brother worked in there.
Munoz: I didn't know you were a twin.
Hernandez: No, my twin brothers. I've got twin brothers. Not me. I'm the oldest. And __________, and then my sister Angie. So all of us were working. That's the way we helped my dad pay for whatever we had to. And my dad used to bring scraps of whatever he could from the mill. So we'd patch it up the best we could, until finally we made it out. And then he had a little house on the back for ________ out there. And by that time, well, in between after that I went in the service. And when I came from the service in '46, when I came back, I got a job for the Navajo Army Depot, and I told my mama every time when I was small, young, I said, "Mom, I'll pay you for everything that you did, because...." This is something I'll never forget in my life. I remember I wanted to go to a movie or someplace, or have something, my mom used to go across to this family ______ Sanchez ________ or whatever, and just go ask for a penny or two pennies. I'll never forget that.
Munoz: She would go ask for a penny or two pennies?
Hernandez: Yeah, can you believe that?
[END TAPE 1, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B]
Munoz: What stayed in your mind, the two pennies that you would never....
Hernandez: Yeah, I told my mom that I would never forget what she used to do for me when I was young. "When I get old, I'm gonna build a house," and something, you know. So the first two, three years, four years, that I worked for the depot, I built a house on back of that property, and I paid for it, and I told my mom, "This is the house that I promised you," (inaudible). Of course when I was in the service I had a [Class "C"?] allotment for her so she could get money, you know, for her. That's why I don't think we--what do you call that?--not in a big [dying?] that people get, you know, ___, you know. I was just fortunate and lucky, let's put it that way. Even before that. But now this fourteen years I'll never forget either, when the second one was here. Before I started at....
Munoz: (inaudible)
Hernandez: No, when I started working at El Patio, I only worked a little time, not too much. So I got a job for second.
Munoz: _________. How much money were you making at El Patio?
Hernandez: El Patio? Oh, I don't know, maybe twenty-five cents every _________. (laughter)
Munoz: An hour?
Hernandez: An hour, I guess.
Munoz: What did you exactly do there at El Patio?
Hernandez: I first started as a dishwasher, and then I got promoted to a busboy. And after that, I went and worked for El Saginaw. I'll never forget that man as long as I live. His name was Frank. He was a boss right there. I bothered him for, oh, a whole week. He didn't want to give me a job. The reason was that he didn't want to give me a job before because I was too young.
Munoz: You were fourteen, you said?
Hernandez: Yeah. I told him, "Well, I need a job. I gotta pay for school or whatever, or get clothes, or this and that to go to school," I said. "No, no," he said, "go home. Go home, we can't give you a job." So the next day, before the whistle blew, I was there. And that happened for about a week, going back and forth, back and [forth]. Finally I guess he must have gotten tired. "Okay, go down to the machine shop and go see Henry Espana." I'll never forget that man, Henry Espana. "And tell him to put you to sweep, clean the machine shop." So that's what I was doing. But I got so--you know, I wanted to learn a lot of stuff. I was always very ambitious, let's put it that way--even as a young kid. You had to, in those years, you know. I looked at Henry Espana cut and weld, and all that stuff. He asked me if I wanted to learn. "Yeah!" I said, "Yeah, I want to learn." So when I was fifteen years, I already knew how to weld and cut, because he showed me. Then I went out and the railroad then, the one that used to bring the logs in there, sometimes they would break or something. I used to fix them.
Munoz: By welding?
Hernandez: Uh-huh, and helping. And I'll never forget then, what's-his-name, you know Salvador Cortazmo [phonetic spelling]?
Munoz: Uh-huh.
Hernandez: Blue Jay.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: Me and him worked at Saginaw together in those years.
Munoz: What did he do?
Hernandez: The same thing. We were helping. And then by that time, the railroad _____ was going out toward Happy Jack. I think they were building it more farther, because the logs, they had to keep on going back and forth, back. So we were loading cars, those cars that they used to put under the track, to build _______. We used to, me and Salvador Cortez used to put 'em on a flatcar so they could take 'em out there for work.
Munoz: How did you put them up there, was it by machine?
Hernandez: No, they used to come out like in a line, like a conveyor line, and then they slide into a bunch of boards that they build like a slider. So you had to be smart how to get 'em, get 'em with a hook and ___ 'em up to the mark, and then somebody would stack 'em up there.
Munoz: How interesting.
Hernandez: I mean, like I say, you learn fast if you wanted to work, let's put it that way. The first few, we couldn't....
Munoz: You were fifteen years old!
Hernandez: So I'll never forget Mr. Reyes [phonetic spelling] was his last name, Ralph Reyes' dad. I can't remember his....
Munoz: Are you thinking about Bernardino?
Hernandez: (inaudible) Reyes, his dad. He's the one that showed me how. Get it like ______________ and he showed me ______. So after that, like I say, he knew how, and then it was easy, you know, easy work. It wasn't real, real hard. By that time, when I was doing that, my dad was working for Saginaw, you see.
Munoz: So you both worked ___________.
Hernandez: So every time they paid me, they used to pay me sixty dollars, I guess, something like that. And I used to give my money to my mom. I never gave nothing to my dad.
Munoz: He had his own money, huh?
Hernandez: So I gave my mom everything, and I remember my mom, I tell her--I'd sign that check and give it to her, and then she'd just, when you cashed it--because I _________ cash. Well, you could, you know, but I knew, you know, but I give it to my mom, and then she would give me two, three, five dollars. So I was rich, see.
Munoz: Like an allowance, huh?
Hernandez: Yes. But I said, I told her that anytime that I would have, that you didn't have to worry about it when I grow up. That's one thing ___________.
Munoz: Because you saw her struggle and trying to....
Hernandez: Si. Well, that's __________. And then, like I say, I was lucky that I went to work for the Navajo Army Depot. By that time....
Munoz: That came after the war, right?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: What did you do in the war? What year did you go?
Hernandez: I went in the first part of '45.
Munoz: Were you taken?
Hernandez: In World War II.
Munoz: Okay, so you had to go?
Hernandez: Uh-huh. And then from there....
Munoz: What branch?
Hernandez: Army. I was in the army. And then when I got out of the army in '50, '52, around there, I joined the guard. And I stayed with the guard for thirty years, and I stayed at the Navajo Army Depot working for forty-three years. So, like I say, I got a good retirement out of that whole ______.
Munoz: That was good planning, very good planning.
Hernandez: Well, the only reason I say [good place?] for one reason, ________ my dad was still alive. And that's when they moved Saginaw to Southwest. My uncle, Albert Luna, was a foreman out there in those years. And then I was only getting [in Belmont?] maybe, what was it, eighty-five cents an hour, I think, when I started over there. I think it was eighty-five cents an hour. And the meals were paid, $1.00, $1.04, something like that. So I don't know how this came up, _________. My uncle said, "Wait! Why don't you come over and work for me? I can give a job out here loading boxcars with lumber." Lumber was being shipped out, you know. You know, the jobs and everything. I told my dad about it, and my dad said, "If I was you, I'd just stick it out with the government, because the sawmill, once it goes"--whenever you blow the whistle or whatever--"you start working until that whistle blows again. And then you start again, and then that ends, and you don't know what's going to happen." I don't say there was a lot of accidents. "You might get hurt, and that'd be all," and this and that. So I took my dad's advice ________. So that's why I stayed out there, and I was very lucky, because it only took me less than two years, let's put it that way, because when I went over there, that depot was just plain labor.
Munoz: As plain labor, what did you do?
Hernandez: I was an explosive operator, where you handled all that ammunition. I went right away to demolition, where we used to detonate old ammunition. See, the old obsolete, that they call obsolete ammunition. A lot of projectiles and everything, blowing them up, you know, get rid of them.
Munoz: Where did you take them to?
Hernandez: When I went in there, of course the depot was already kind of full blasting, and the depot was creating more, a lot of Indians working there. Well, that's why they call it Navajo, you know. That was the idea, that in those years it was Navajo Ordinance Depot. So I went out there and when I went over there, I went right out from there, I went straight to what they call demolition where they destroy all those kind of old stuff or whatever, obsolete stuff. They came back from World War II, you know.
Munoz: Where did you explode them at?
Hernandez: South, between eight and ten miles, into the reservation, that they called, you know. ________ 8,000 acres there. So we had a place where to detonate that kind of ammunition, so nobody is going to be endangered.
Munoz: How many of you were there doing this?
Hernandez: When we were there, you won't believe this, they had so much people in there, I think between 3,000 and 4,000 people working in there. And I remember, like I say, that they told me that when I went and hired for that job.... As a matter of fact, I got hired only for thirty days, because it was December 19. I got on December 3, December 19 I went to work over there. And I'll never forget Ann Ganch [phonetic spelling] was the personnel officer, the one that used to do. She was _______. So she said, "Well, we've got a job for thirty days. You still want to go to work?" "Yeah! I'm here, I might as well go to work." So I remember _____________ they took us in like a truck. It was all covered. You couldn't even see where you were going. There was canvas, and all they had was old army trucks.
Munoz: So it was a military truck, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah, military truck. And they were covered by some of that particle board or plywood or something, and locked it, you know.
Munoz: You were locked in there, too?
Hernandez: Well, they put, you know, so that [Dolan's?] people.... And then we went up there and they could have left me there, I didn't even know where I was ____. I couldn't even see the San Francisco Peaks. We were kind of in a hole, you know. So that was my first job, working out there on demolition. And then my thirty days came up, so I told the guys, "Well, I'll see you, guys. My days are over." They called me into the office and they asked me--and you know what they told me? Ann said, "Hey, do you still want to keep on working?" I said, "Well, I'm here." Oh, she told me, I'll never forget, she said, "Well, go back to your job." And I went up as forty-three years working for the government. And I never did sign any papers! But she told me, "Go back." So that's the way it started.
Munoz: Did you do the same job for forty-three years while you were at the Navajo Army Depot?
Hernandez: No, I changed. That's one thing over there, you don't know from one day to the other day, unless you work on the lines where you would last maybe two, three months, or something. Like during the winter, they'd bring us in, because you couldn't do demolition work because it's too muddy, and you couldn't put any equipment in there, see. So we used to work in there. But in those years there was a lot of ladies working up there, you know. A lot of young ladies.
Munoz: Like Jessie Alonzo, did you see her out there?
Hernandez: Oh, yeah. ________ used to work over there.
Munoz: Not her husband, but her.
Hernandez: Yeah. She used to work over there, but I think she went and worked out there before I did, maybe.
Munoz: Right. That was during the war, and she worked during the war. You worked after the war.
Hernandez: Yeah, I worked after. But when I worked after, there were still young girls. Even Rosemary, she worked over there.
Munoz: Rosemary who?
Hernandez: Rosemary.... What the heck was it? Torres? [phonetic spelling]
Munoz: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hernandez: She used to work over there.
Munoz: She was married to Elmo Torres, yeah.
Hernandez: There was a lot of ladies used to work out there. There were some ladies, young girls or whatever, they used to work in the line, just handle ammunition just like any of us.
Munoz: Yeah, so they were doing men's jobs as well.
Hernandez: And there was a lady up there, Mrs. Matthews. I'll never forget Mrs. Matthews. That was Tom Matthews' wife. She was an old lady. I shouldn't say real old, but an old lady. I could swear to God that she was maybe sixty-five to seventy years. But she was just like, what do you call, like an inspector, just looking around there. Let me tell you something, this is very.... (laughs) One day we had like a primary explosion in the [gihayta?] on the side, and then it blew up. Good thing it didn't have power. We were just working on the primers, you know. And it bumped. So the first thing they tell you, "Get out of the building." So that lady out there on top of that hill, she was the first one up there. So you can just imagine how fast she moved! (laughter) That's what I'm saying.
Munoz: So that was endangering your lives out there?
Hernandez: Oh, yeah. Well, after years and years they decided to put two categories of deals out there, working. In other words, there was some that we worked with explosives more, you would get an 8 percent raise. And then if it didn't have [pneumatics?] explosives, they would have four, you know. So....
Munoz: So that was the deal.
Hernandez: Yeah. It was a good one, because, well, like I say, it's real dangerous. There was a.... I never saw a serious accident out there. There's like cuts or bruises, something like that used to happen.
Munoz: Not blowing someone's arm off or anything?
Hernandez: No. We were just lucky. And on that, when we first started, I don't think they believed in safety.
Munoz: OSHA wasn't there, huh?
Hernandez: OSHA wasn't there. But now, oh! OSHA's one of the best ones ________. So used to throw the ammunition into a dump truck or something, take it out there and just bring and empty and just let 'em roll down there. So if we would have hit a primer, you know what would have happened.
Munoz: Yes!
Hernandez: The darned thing would have blown up and probably killed some of us.
Munoz: So you were lucky it never happened.
Hernandez: We were lucky. Then after that, everything was very safety ________.
Munoz: Wow, that is scary, huh? Because you wouldn't have never known if you'd gone back home. Wow. Okay, I'm going to go back to your house on San Francisco, that you built _________. About what year was that when you bought that house, or your mom and dad bought it?
Hernandez: My dad and mom. I'd say 1942 when we bought it, because, like I say, we moved here from DuPont, then we went straight to ______. And we stayed there until, like I said, my dad and my folks passed away.
Munoz: Let me ask you, what was the neighborhood like?
Hernandez: The neighborhood, I would say they were very friendly, actually. Like I say, years and years ago most of the people were friendly. I think they were very friendly, but I'm talking about this side, I'm not talking about the north, because everything was discrimination, right?
Munoz: Right. I'll come to that in a few. I'm just wondering, your neighborhood, mention some of your neighbors.
Hernandez: _______ like this, Bacas and Luceros and Barreras and __________ used to live there. Sanchez.
Munoz: Yeah, I remember Johnny [Cereal?].
Hernandez: What's his name now? Marana. Maranas used to live there, right next to right there. From this corner, the Sanchezes lived on the corner, and then the Maranas, Julia Marana [and her folks?]. I can remember Julia and Connie and _________ people __________. And then the next house there was Abetas, Mary Abetas, mi comadre. (chuckles) And then the Cernas, and then the Luceros. Herman used to live on that corner right there, Herman Lucero.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: And then on this side of the [site?] where now there's a church in there, there used to be the Barreras family, ______, her folks, ______ Garrearas, _________, right in there. And then next to them it was us. And then the next ones was _______ entonces despues, after they came, los Jaramillos. And los Mirandas right there. And right here, ________, this person right here used to be an old, old houses, you know, and _______.
Munoz: Oh, I remember that, the little shacky-type houses. I remember when I was a young person, coming to South Beaver, Larry Bradley used to live there.
Hernandez: Yeah, used to live there, and then some. And then I don't know what year the Colemans lived in there, because when he went over to Belmont, he used to live right there, the Colemans.
Munoz: Yeah, it was inside, yeah.
Hernandez: Inside. But like I say.... Well, you know, in those years everything.... Well the white people over here ____________. I don't know, African Americans _________.
Munoz: When you were growing up--well, when you came here in the forties, I guess by that time the African American people were out here already?
Hernandez: Uh-huh. Dunbar was still there. They used to go, just over here to South Beaver. That's when they started over here. That's the time when I came. South Beaver was still already ________.
Munoz: Did you go to South Beaver?
Hernandez: I didn't go to South Beaver, because I went to the eighth grade at Brannen. Like I say, I was fourteen already, ______ eighth grade. But all my kids went to South Beaver, all of 'em.
Munoz: How about when you were growing up as a child, what type of games do you remember playing?
Hernandez: Well, all my life, fast pitch.
Munoz: You like baseball?
Hernandez: I like baseball. And when I was going to school I used to play basketball. But what I really liked to play was fast pitch. So they didn't have fast pitch during those years. We used to go to Prescott, all the way up there. Sometimes we used to go three times in a week. Whenever our turn was to go up there, we played all that stuff was in Prescott. I don't know why Flagstaff never had it.
Munoz: What was the team that you played with?
Hernandez: JP-8 Tougherteers. [phonetic spelling]
Munoz: What year was that?
Hernandez: Hm, well, let's see.... I don't know when Joe started there, but he was our manager, let's put it that way.
Munoz: Joe Aragundo? [phonetic spelling]
Hernandez: Yeah, Joe Aragundo. About what year was that building on _____ JP Tougherteers.
Munoz: Maybe in the late sixties, early seventies.
Hernandez: Yeah, around there, because we played for years and years with him.
Munoz: He was your sponsor, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah, he was our sponsor, and I'll tell ya', he was one of the best sponsors. I'll never say nothing against him. All we had to do is buy our glove and shoes, and he would put the rest.
Munoz: How many years would you say you participated in your softball pitching?
Hernandez: Oh, twenty-five, thirty years. (laughs) I played ball until I was sixty-two years old, let's put it that way.
Munoz: That's a nice long time. You stayed pretty active.
Hernandez: That's a long time. As a matter of fact, when the Coconino Box Factory was over here, right there on that--well, down around where the sawmill was, right in there--Juicy Elbaro [phonetic spelling] asked me to play for him, and there was a fast pitch ______. And all these people there used to play in there.
Munoz: What was the name of that team?
Hernandez: I think it was Coconino Box Factory. That's all I remember. They just made a team (snaps fingers) like that. That's when I started. And when that year was up, I think there was maybe sixteen years or something. Played all my life, played ball.
Munoz: In Williams tambien?
Hernandez: In Williams I never played ball. I don't know why.
Munoz: When you were younger, what did you do over there for games?
Hernandez: Well, when I was younger, I was going to school, let's put it that way.
Munoz: At Williams Elementary School.
Hernandez: And then after school, my dad, well, like I say, my dad was a hard man.
Munoz: It's understandable.
Hernandez: He was a hard man. He said, "When I was, oh, I think I started when I was five, six years old...." He used to tell us, "Why don't you go up there and see if this lady would like you to throw that wood into the wood shed," or something like that. So there I go. I threw more darned wood stove wood in sheds, all right there, for maybe five cents or whatever.
Munoz: Uh-huh, but you earned your money.
Hernandez: You earned your money, that's for sure, because they had big trucks, and they used to scatter the wood from here to the fence over there, and you had to pick it up. So that's what they used to _______. And then most of our time, like Sunday, everybody, we used to have a lot of picnics over at the cement dam in Williams. We went swimming out there and all that. All these people used to gather, some up there, have picnics out there. And all of us were like fishing always on the dam.
Munoz: Swimming all the time.
Hernandez: And then, when I was grown, like I say, I used to work for this Gonzales. I used to milk the cows. He showed me how to milk the cow. That's one thing I'll say, we always had milk, because I used to.... "All right, take some," _____ cream in every ________. So we had milk. My two brothers, which are my twin brothers, they used to work for Lopez. Jimmy Lopez, __________. They were Lopez. They had chickens and rabbits and pigs--animals.
Munoz: _________.
Hernandez: _______. So that family used to give us a small pig like that, and my dad would raise it. And here comes Christmas and (smacks table with hand).... ___________.
Munoz: _________ tamales _________.
Hernandez: Tamales and everything. We killed, but out of that, you know, all that [old corn and everything?].
Munoz: Feed it to 'em, uh-huh.
Hernandez: [Feed it to] the animals, you know. They used to give us like chickens once in a while. So we always had meat, I'll tell you the truth. And we were never raised under it like that. Beans and chile, I guess, like that, whatever, you know.
Munoz: And this was all in Williams, huh, where you learned all that--the milking of the cows?
Hernandez: Yeah. This man....
Munoz: How old were you then, do you think?
Hernandez: When I was milking the cows? Oh, seven years maybe--six, seven years. We used to, like I say, it was more like a, what do you call, like a family, helping each other. You had to. And then those years right there, nothing but bootlegging.
Munoz: Right, that's another one I would have asked you. Let's go to the school. You went to the elementary schools in Williams.
Hernandez: Williams Elementary School. That's where I went. Then from there.... I stayed there, like I say, from the sixth year, seventh year, around there, in school.
Munoz: Okay, sixth grade.
Hernandez: And that's when I came back over here. But I went to the eighth grade here, so I had to go to the seventh grade _______.
Munoz: When you were going to school, your first language was?
Hernandez: Well, what do you want to say, Spanish or English? Before I went to school, I didn't know English, let's put it that way. I didn't even like school to begin with, okay, because I'll never forget when I was in the first grade, I played hookey for three months.
Munoz: Oh, Lord!
Hernandez: So I stayed in the fourth grade. _______. So what I did out there, I didn't even tell my dad or mom. When they knew about it, I got a whippin'! (laughter)
Munoz: Why did you [play hookey]? Because you didn't like school? Why didn't you like school?
Hernandez: Well, I wasn't very much interested in school, let's put it that way. I was more like--ah, I shouldn't say forced, but my mom used to [tell us] the best thing is to go to school ______. But in those years....
[END TAPE 1, SIDE B; BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE A]
Hernandez: Then after that, my dad _________. After that whipping, I knew what I had to do. And I went back in the fourth grade, back to the fourth grade, okay.
Munoz: Do you remember your teacher's name?
Hernandez: Oh, I don't know. ___________ that's one of the teachers that I knew anyway, but I don't remember the teachers, to tell you the truth. Just Miles Kierdon [phonetic spelling] because we had a little _______ between me and him. Me and la familia Perez, they had two brothers, Emilio Perez and Jesus Perez. That teacher was mean, and I don't care who says no, he was very mean. He just happened to one time, you know, ah, you know how kids are kids anyway. That teacher would come out here through the back and catch and slap you. One day he just slapped the wrong guy, because Jesus Perez, he got up and we got in a fight with him. And I don't know why I jumped into the middle of the darned thing, but we all got thrown on. _________. We had to go to the principal and go through all the routines, __________. And more like troublemakers, I guess, let's put it that way. It looked to me every time something went wrong, they always went to us, saying it was us. Like I'll never forget this girl that stole the money out of the principal's desk. Her name was Amid Tamarales [phonetic spelling] and those girls were, you know. So they blamed us. And we are not going over there to ______ department ________. We might do everything, but we didn't steal money. So finally they knew she was the girl, and I think she went to the, what do you call that, the girls'....
Munoz: Oh, reform school or something of the sort?
Hernandez: Uh-huh, the reform school.
Munoz: Wow. You build a reputation and they come looking for you, huh? I was going to ask you, because Spanish being your first language, did you find that difficult to go to school and try to learn English?
Hernandez: It was difficult. When you start school, it's just like my daughter here, when she went to school, Diane. She didn't know a word in English, to tell you the truth. She couldn't even tell the teacher she wanted to go to the restroom or something like that. And our primary, it was just Spanish, let's put it that way. And over there was the same thing, because everybody.... But it made it hard, because my parents, you know, they all speak Spanish, because my dad didn't know English. Even up to the last that my dad passed away, we always talked Spanish. Irene's folks also. They were from Mexico, _____ to speak to her in Spanish. And then Irene knew real good Spanish, too, to begin with, my wife. Every time they talked, it was in Spanish, never English at all. I don't think we.... But then after that, and English [deals?], we made it for one reason, because of Diana. Diana Robert Ruben, they talked Spanish. The other ones, like my other kids, English--Ray and all those. They'll understand it, but they won't speak it. But our primary [language] was Spanish. I would say it was Spanish.
Munoz: Okay, so do you think that's why you didn't like going to school?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: Maybe you didn't want to have to communicate in English. You know, there's a lot of people that I've done oral histories with, and really, a lot of 'em left school because they didn't want to learn. They had a hard time trying to....
Hernandez: Most of us, I think most of us had a hard time, because when you start.... Well, you're an idiot, let's put it that way, when you start. But after that, you pick it up. To me, I think as a little kid, he picks it up fast, you know. That's why I say you pick it up pretty fast. But in older people, they ain't gonna.... I'm not even going to speculate.
Munoz: Yeah. Well, that's 'cause he always spoke Spanish. It was easier for him to communicate in Spanish than in English. But you were the first one to go to school and learn English, but since you were ditching so much....
Hernandez: But then when it comes to us, now, for instance like that, all my kids went in school. And I told them that if you ever wanted ___________ what my dad used to tell us, "If you want something, you have to work for it." So if you want to work, and my dad used to say, "If you want to work all your life with a pick and shovel, don't go to school. But if you want to have kind of a good job, you have to know _________ or something like that." But my kids, one of 'em, like Ralph, he [referred?], because he was in the tenth grade. He didn't want to go to school no more. We talked about it, and I said, "Okay, if you don't want to go to school, you don't have to go to school. I don't care whether you go or not, but you're not going to stay here. As long as I'm paying or costing me, you're going to go to school. If you don't like it, and you think you got a nickel in your pocket, there's the door." So he talked to his mom. I don't know what they talked [about], this and that, but he [wind down grades are "A," you see?]. Like I say, it's up to the parents to.... But if you're living with a kid _________ but stay here, the same thing. You know he's not going to go to school.
Munoz: That's true. When you were growing up in Williams, do you remember any neighborhood stores in Williams?
Hernandez: No, not that I know.
Munoz: They didn't have little stores around the neighborhoods over there?
Hernandez: No, it was kind of a peaceable ________. (laughter)
Munoz: How about the grocery stores? What grocery stores were there?
Hernandez: Grocery store, there was a grocery store, let's see, about two, three blocks, goin' back to town, you know. And it was run by Senor Torres. He had that grocery store. Of course we had the commissary out there for the Saginaw workers. Now that building was a huge big building, buy our groceries there. And everything, like I say, it was real cheap.
Munoz: At that time, yeah.
Hernandez: But it was right there close to it, you know. Now, that store was almost the same distance, I think. Just go to, I don't know what street is that, but you go down there from that to the other store, it was the same distance, just like a circle.
Munoz: So that's the neighborhood store. And this is in Williams, right?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: When you were growing up there, how about gardens? Yeah, you did, huh. You said you did.
Hernandez: My dad used to do plants. He'd plant corn, whatever we could.... You know, there's some places that you can plant. You can't compare Williams to Cottonwood or __________ on account of the weather.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: So you can grow something else different, like ________________ Camp Verde.
Munoz: So it was like squash or corn, potatoes?
Hernandez: We never planted potatoes. We had some plum trees, too. I remember we had plums.
Munoz: Okay, and flowers? I guess your mom would have a flower garden, huh?
Hernandez: Uh-huh, flowers. I picked flowers all over.
Munoz: Animals? At that time did your dad have--used to have pigs, right?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: And how about goats?
Hernandez: No. Lopez had the goats. And then there was another family, la familia Baca, that was there. Oh, they had a bunch of pigs.
Munoz: So they had a farm, do you think?
Hernandez: Yeah. It was a big--they had a big, what do you call it, a lot of land out there back in those years. Our place was pretty big. Most of the places were big.
Munoz: How many houses would you say were out there then?
Hernandez: Then?
Munoz: When you were growing up.
Hernandez: In our portion, our neighborhood, I would say there was maybe fifteen, twenty houses. There wasn't too many houses _________ because from where we used to live, Sixth Street was the last street, and then after it started growing, that's where they put the new high school out there. And then they put the, what do you call that, bunch of postal, electricity, and everything. But it's expanded. Now it's toward the cemetery, after it started growing. Before, right there between the cemetery, Gonzales had a big ranch right there. That's like _____ dairy.
Munoz: Uh-huh a dairy farm, or dairy ranch.
Hernandez: Or whatever, right there, in the middle. But nothing out there, because it was all, what do you call it, range land or something for the cows.
Munoz: A lot of range. Was that Gonzales an espanol o mexicano?
Hernandez: Well, he was from Spain, I think, espanol.
Munoz: So he had a dairy farm.
Hernandez: You know, like Gonzales was Richard. We used to call him _______. And then the one that has that Grand Canyon job, __________ and all those guys. Gonzales, that was his dad. That's where they got....
Munoz: The money to build, yeah.
Hernandez: And Jimmy Gonzales, they had the money. Those Gonzales had the money, let's put it that way.
Munoz: Because they had a lot of acreage out there, and they probably sold, huh? Okay. That's pretty cool, that we're getting some, looking into Williams, what it was like when you were growing up, because it's not always a Williams thing that I usually focus on. It's always in Flagstaff. But some people have migrated from Williams to Flagstaff. A lot of people migrated from Williams to Flagstaff with the sawmill.
Hernandez: Uh-huh, because of the mill. I have always said that if the mill would have stayed there, probably Williams would have grown bigger than Flagstaff, maybe. Now, you never know. And the reason they moved is because it was logging with trucks. It wasn't coming in with train or whatever you call it. The logs were getting to be too far, so they decided to move to Flagstaff to come down here to Happy Jack and __________. And after that, after they sold out here, they came over here.
Munoz: Southwest.
Hernandez: Southwest. And then they didn't last that long, because of the logs. And then all this about the spotted owl and all that, you know.
Munoz: (laughs) Yeah, I know that. (laughs) On traditional foods, what would you say was a traditional meal or food prepared at home when you were growing up? (
Hernandez: Yeah.) What was it?
Hernandez: Beans, potatoes, sopa, whatever you could get. And I remember my dad, during the Depression, he used to bring a little sack of flour sometimes or something. Depression was in '32, around there. I remember in the Depression, because I was five years old already, during the Depression. As I say, my dad used to bring whatever he could __________. But, like I said, just like I'm telling you, you know, we didn't have too much problem, because all these people out there, they had a lot of meat, let's put it that way, and then a lot of cows.
Munoz: Right, there was a lot of farming over there, and ranching, so you guys kind of kept yourselves with vegetables ___________.
Hernandez: I used to bring, like I say, milk, every day, fresh milk, every day. And my brothers, they worked over there with him. Since they had all those animals, they helped him feed 'em or whatever. They used to bring a chicken or _________ like I say, every year he would give us a small pig. Oh, we could have had more stuff like that, but I don't know, my dad never thought about having a bunch of like rabbits and chickens and all that. Probably too much problem, you know. And next door right there is a place where the Gonzales _________, part of that family over there, you know. They had a little, what do you call that, a little place over there where you bring the cows and milk 'em, and this and that, see--horses. Mostly more milk, because....
Munoz: Where was that at?
Hernandez: In Williams. They used to have a big, like I say, close to the cemetery, and then he used to live up there, you know.
Munoz: Cemeteries in Williams, you only knew of one? Is that the only one still sitting there?
Hernandez: That I knew of. That's it.
Munoz: What street is it on, do you remember?
Hernandez: I don't think they call that street. They call it the Old 66, where the old [Highway] 66 used to run, right below. You know, the main drag used to be 66 right there.
Munoz: Is the cemetery....
Hernandez: It's just on the side. And then they built that, what do you call that, Denny's up the hill. And then that motel, and then the cemetery. But as far as I know, I think the only cemetery that I know of is that one right there. Not here, like here, you know, like that ____________.
Munoz: Do you remember having any role models, someone that you thought you'd want to grow up and be like?
Hernandez: And be what?
Munoz: A role model. You know, like a mayor or a teacher or someone that you admired, that you wanted to be like when you were small, that you admired. You know, a lot of people grow up and say, "I want to be an astronaut."
Hernandez: Yeah, "I want to be so-and-so, or an astronaut." I never thought about that, let's put it that way. I don't know who I thought.... I never heard of anybody that said, "I'd like to be like this baseball player," or something like that, like a football player--not that I remember anyway.
Munoz: Not like you hear it now, huh?
Hernandez: Not like you hear it now. Now it's different.
Munoz: Okay, now I'll go to discrimination. Let's look at Williams community. Was there discrimination there, do you remember? Or were you too young to even notice that there was....
Hernandez: I think I was too young. But I don't think there was discrimination. Well, discrimination is going to be, no matter what. Discrimination means a big word. It could be anything.
Munoz: Whatever, right. That's very true. Let's say the Hispanic from the white, did they segregate?
Hernandez: Yeah, we weren't even segregated. All the people in Williams, like across the tracks here, _______, our boundary line was [Texas?] as far as I'm concerned. Now over there, the tracks, a lot of Spanish people, Munozes, Coronas, start from all those people, and that's where they had that section also in Williams, you know. Nothing but people from Mexico used to work in there--the Lizardes, and oh, every____. Same thing, Mexicans all over.
Munoz: Okay, like Corona, I remember him. Gil Corona.
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: He was from Williams, huh?
Hernandez: Corona. Munozes __________, she's a teacher here at Parks, I think.
Munoz: At Parks?
Hernandez: At Parks. We grew up together, all those kids up there, ________.
Munoz: Is Munoz her maiden name?
Hernandez: Viatandos--not Viatandos--Vianuevas. _____________. Martinez. You know, everybody. Los Rojos, I used _______________. La Ramirez, okay, what's his name?
Munoz: Andy?
Hernandez: Andy Ramirez.
Munoz: Okay, Williams, comparing it to Flagstaff, there wasn't much there. But when you moved to Flagstaff, you were a little older, and you begin to notice these things, too. Okay, tell me what discrimination meant.
Hernandez: Well, when we're talking about discrimination, like they say, here at South Beaver, not much Mexicans and Indians, as far as [that goes], I guess. I don't know what you call those African Americans. They used to call them all kinds of names.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: They had their own place up there. But, they used to live, like you say, in here, up there. But like we.... We didn't bother it, because I worked with them, you know. I was working with them.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: At the depot.
Munoz: But when you were fourteen?
Hernandez: Oh, when I was here, fourteen, everything, you know, it was discrimination, as far as that goes. When I got here, I don't know how a lot of guys, like I remember los Ramirez, they went to Emerson--Leo Ramirez, Mario Ramirez, and even, I think one of 'em, Mario Ramirez, got kicked out of Emerson when South Beaver opened. As a matter of fact, everybody--I read some of their stories, especially right there in South Beaver. They say that they don't.... And one Friday they said, "Well, okay, you guys pick up all your stuff. You're going to your own school," which was [South Beaver?].
Munoz: Right. That's why South Beaver--'cause Emerson, they were tryin' ____________.
Hernandez: Over there at the college.
Munoz: Normal school.
Hernandez: I don't know, what the heck was that school that they had in there?
Munoz: Training school.
Hernandez: Training school! The training school. I never heard of a Mexican going over there. I don't know __________.
Munoz: Yeah.
Hernandez: Maybe through the school.
Munoz: Actually, my mom went to training school. And some people from the chantes also went there, so it was depending. I don't know how that worked, to be honest with you, or how they were getting registered.
Hernandez: Because in those six years, just the foundation of the college was there, that's all. Grandes _____________.
Munoz: So you remember when it was a field?
Hernandez: The field was right there, right across from South Beaver School, the football field, right in there. And then, right here is where the swimming pool is--yeah, right there.
Munoz: The baseball field.
Hernandez: _____________ as a matter of fact, the baseball field was right there.
Munoz: Yeah, I remember that.
Hernandez: Because Frank used to, a lot of flies were coming over his house ________. It's a baseball field.
Munoz: So you personally, how would you describe the discrimination--or did you feel it? Or were you discriminated [against] when you were growing up here in Flagstaff?
Hernandez: I don't know.
Munoz: ________.
Hernandez: Discrimination is, like I said, is a lot of stuff. You never saw it ______ like me. I wasn't discriminated. Like I say.... Of course, I went with a lot of white people, because we went to high school when I was over there. Everybody was going to high school, because there was only one high school.
Munoz: Right. And what year was that?
Hernandez: Well, I came here in '14, '27, '41, '42 when I came here to school, aqui, a la escuela. And everybody, we used to go down there to that school. Of course it was a school as one building--entonces now it's like _________.
Munoz: Right.
Hernandez: So I don't think you had any choice, huh?
Munoz: How did you get treated by teachers?
Hernandez: Oh, I can't complain. I think they were all nice, as far as I'm concerned. It never did bother me. That never bothers, or they'd never say, "You sit way over there, and you sit here," and this and that.
Munoz: Okay, so you didn't see it affect other people or yourself.
Hernandez: But, as it comes down on the sides _______ when you were going here, __________, it's like I'm saying.
Munoz: Uh-huh, from ________.
Hernandez: But I never was told that, "All Mexicans sit over there," this and that. I remember Mr. Redman, he was a nice man. ___________ especially. Every time we used to go into his class, the first thing, we always picked him first, because he had a habit of throwing erasers. He was left-handed, and I'll never forget him. He was real nice with all of us. Well, I think all the teachers, there's only teacher there that I hated, that was old Mrs. McNerney, and I don't care ________. On account of her, I quit school.
Munoz: Oh, McNerney? What did she do?
Hernandez: Well, I was already in eleventh grade, so.... Actually, it was our fault, let's put it that way. You can't blame the teacher, right? Okay.
Munoz: There's two sides to every story.
Hernandez: I remember I went with both Lucy Picardo, which in that case was Lucy Navarro, y la Lucy Mayorga, which was Abeta. Well, I used to sit on the side--not on the side. Here's one Lucy and Mary, and then Alice Buckman. She ____ in front of me. And I don't know who was in back, but I remember those girls, for one reason. It was already one afternoon, you go study room, or whatever you want to do. The last period at school, you know. So I was making my deal, and they used to hit me on my hand and break the lead. Okay? So here I go and sharpen the darned thing. Okay, it happened about two, three times. Here comes McNerney. Man, I figured she came through that row. "Pete, next time you want to sharpen your pencil, you raise your hand." Like that, kindergarten--raise your hand. I didn't say nothing. But here I am again, writing, I break my pencil. Eee! Well, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know.
Munoz: They were making it hard for you, those girls were.
Hernandez: I was debating whether to get up and sharpen the pencil. "Nah, I hate this." So finally the girls, all three of 'em, chicken, chicken, _______, chicken, chicken, you know. So then I got it. Here she comes, _______ came out of one of those, what do you call those, arenas where the little _______.
Munoz: A bullpen, huh?
Hernandez: Coming after me. "I told you next time raise your hand. You should have raised your hand. Get up and report to the principal." "Yes, ma'am." So I started reporting to the principal--it was almost time to go home. I went to my locker, threw my books in there, and I went home. The next day, I came to school and the first thing in the morning, _________, "Would Peter Hernandez please report to the principal's office." So I went over there and he told me, "Well, didn't Mrs. McNerney tell you to come and report to me?" "Yes, she did." _____________ put my books in my locker and I went home because it was gonna be time to go home, so I went home. Well, he tried to scare me. I knew he'd try to scare me. He said, "Well, I'm going to have to expel you for two weeks." I said, "No, you're not going to expel me. I just quit. You owe me fifty cents for my key," I said. Used to pay fifty cents for your towel and key.
Munoz: And this was up at the high school?
Hernandez: At the high school. I said, "You owe me fifty cents, and I'm going home." So I went home. That's one thing, first mistake I ever made ______. I said I made, that was my fault. So it did bother me, but like I say, they didn't care whether you went to school or not. So I wound up going to California, worked for the Union Pacific. And then I remember they didn't want to give me a job because I was underage.
Munoz: How old were you?
Hernandez: I was seventeen years--sixteen, seventeen. So I had to go to San Pedro and get a minor's release to work for the Union Pacific. So I got hired, and that's when they had those, remember the old [strained fingers?] that railroad that goes through there?
Munoz: Yes.
Hernandez: What I used to do is oil the wheels, put some oil. And all the girls that worked in there used to change the padding and all that. It was a lot of _________. I only worked over there one year, and then I came back. That's when I went into the service when I came back. (inaudible) But like I said, that was my mistake. And then after I got out of the service, Mr. Pearson, Peterson, or somebody, I can't remember. Even Mr. Killip ______. They sent me a letter, "Come on. Come on back to school." But, like I said, I was already making a nickel in my pocket. I said, "To heck with school." That's when I started working in Belmont. So I was already working in there, so I just.... And I went __________. But then my kids try to compare this time with me, like when _________. "Well, look at my dad, he didn't graduate, and he makes more money than this." "Yeah, but," I told them, "those are years ago. When your time comes up to work, you're going to have to have a diploma ___________." _______ the city, got a diploma. My boy Ruben didn't have a diploma, but to be a foreman or super, he had to have a diploma. So he went GED. So it paid. I told him, "You see, I told you." But they're trying to compare it with us, when we were going to work.
Munoz: Well, you had a lot of obstacles, and I don't think they understand the obstacles that you met when you were growing up, because language was a barrier, and then of course you had to help your parents. You don't see these kids going out there, earning a nickel to help their parents. You paid for a house on your own, and you helped your mother. You handed your paycheck to your mother.
Hernandez: Well, it's just like, I couldn't understand why my mom--I mean, ____________, felt sorry for my mother because going out there to this neighbors out there, just for a penny or two pennies. Can you imagine that in those years?
Munoz: Yeah. And you felt kind of, "Gee, that's an __________ thing, to go....
[END TAPE 2, SIDE A; BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE B]
Hernandez: Dad would say, "Go help that lady or something." That's one thing that my dad said, "You gotta respect ____ lady, I don't care what it is."
Munoz: Different times, huh, compared to now.
Hernandez: My dad was a very respectable man, let's put it that way. He had all that stuff in Mexico, ____________. He always.... And my dad, if we would call one of my uncles or my cousins by their first names, oh man, he'd jump on you. He's your cousin or your uncle. We never said, like, "Paul" or "Daniel"--just "uncle" all the time. My Uncle Manuel, when we were talking with him, it's "uncle," you know. Not Manny, Paul, Albert, or ________. None of that! Oh, my dad used to get me. "What?!" And we would never say anything to my mom, either. Soon as we tried to tell something to my mom or something, [he'd say] "What?!" He'd say, "Come out here. Que paso?" in Spanish.
Munoz: So he had control.
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: So he's the one that ran the household, really.
Hernandez: Well, really, yes. And my mom--well, mothers are more, you know, I shouldn't say. My mom was a very nice woman. La mujer ______.
Munoz: Well, it's interesting, because a woman in those days.... How old was your mom when she got married, do you remember, do you know?
Hernandez: My mom? I think they were about in their twenties.
Munoz: And in those days, women, it was like they were trained to serve the man, and she had no questions, she never questioned things, more than likely. Pretty much she went with the role the husband did. Not compared to nowadays. Now you question everything. Women are different now (laughs) to those days.
Hernandez: Well, yes, you're right. My dad used to teach us the best he could, let's put it that way. My dad used to tell us how to do this and that, because it pays, for one reason, because I learned a lot of stuff from him.
Munoz: To survive.
Hernandez: To survive.
Munoz: Okay, [we talked about] discrimination. How about movie houses here? What do you remember about theaters here in Flagstaff?
Hernandez: Like what?
Munoz: Movie theaters, like what movie theater do you remember going to?
Hernandez: We used to go to that Flagstaff Theater right there on San Francisco Street. ____________.
Munoz: Yeah, I remember. You know, what, I remember that. I don't know why, I feel like I [went there?].
Hernandez: The only one, they said there was that _________ whatever that movie in there, but I don't remember that _________.
Munoz: That was earlier, before you came into town.
Hernandez: Yeah, because I didn't even know about that theater. But the one in San Francisco right there, where that shoe shop used to be.
Munoz: That was where the store, wasn't it Fein's, and that jewelry store? Sweetbriar? Yeah, they turned to become stores, women's stores. That was after the theater, where the theater was down there. And it was like a cafe or something around next.
Hernandez: Yeah, the cafe was on the other side. And somebody was telling me.... I remember right there next to the old post office, next door there was a bowling alley there, because I used to work there, setting pins. There was no machine for setting pins.
Munoz: By hand?
Hernandez: But around there, somebody told me before that that used to be the old post office, ______ some kind of movie. I don't think so. I don't remember, unless it was before me.
Munoz: Yeah, way before. That's early 1920s, in that area, and you came in the forties.
Hernandez: And then after that they built the North End Theater.
Munoz: So you attended the Flagstaff Theater, and you told me where it was located. How about the dancing halls? What dancing halls do you remember?
Hernandez: The old armory.
Munoz: Where the Furniture Barn....
Hernandez: That's where most of all the dances were, at the old armory. Now you've got dance halls wherever you want to make 'em.
Munoz: Right. Because by that time, Chin Chun Chan and the ones on San Francisco, you don't remember?
Hernandez: I don't remember those. About the only one I remember is out here, because like I say, in those years, with all those gangs before. Flagstaff be like Williams, or Williams, they like _________.
Munoz: Those weren't gangs! Those were just groups of kids that were territorial. They didn't like you going to Flagstaff to pick up the girls there, and they didn't like Williams to come pick up the girls.
Hernandez: That's right.
Munoz: It's kind of funny, I laugh about it (laughs) Winslow. 'Cause I remember my tios being part of that.
Hernandez: Who?
Munoz: Mike Ceballos.
Hernandez: Oh, yeah.
Munoz: Y Sedoros [phonetic spelling] Ceballos, you know. But it's interesting. I'm like, "Why would they want...."
Hernandez: And Ray Ceballos?
Munoz: And Ray.
Hernandez: _________ when we got married.
Munoz: Oh, really?!
Hernandez: Yeah, Ray.
Munoz: When you and Irene?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: Really?! I didn't know that. Gee, what about that! I know music is one thing that you're familiar with, and I know that you started playing music, how old?
Hernandez: Long time.
Munoz: How many years?
Hernandez: When I started, let me tell you when Herman Luceros, La Reyano, what's his name? Mesa, Tony Mesa? When they first started playing music, of course they already had played music for years and years. They were known as--like when they were in Williams, known as the Syncopaters or the Nighthawks or something like that, in those years. But when I started playing music, Herman was the one, he was after me all the time, "Come on, come on!" But, in that year, I was playing ball, so I said, "No, no, I'm playing ball." I liked fast pitch.
Munoz: What year was that?
Hernandez: Hm, about thirty years ago, or more.
Munoz: In the seventies?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: When did you start? You started in the seventies, or sixties?
Hernandez: I started probably in the sixties. As a matter of fact, over here, I'll tell you where the first place I played. You know right there at Pic Quik? (
Munoz: Uh-huh.) Well, that used to be the VFW right there. Yet, that's where they had the Horseshoe, where all the greenhouses for the Saginaw workers. That's where I even started playing music right there.
Munoz: Those houses? You mean those chantes?
Hernandez: Si, los chantes _________, yeah. Oh, that was still there when I came _________.
Munoz: Right, el molino.
Hernandez: El molino, they started building everything in there, you know. And they _______ a santo right in the middle of the whole work. I ________ yesterday, ____________ because I kept on saying, "No, I don't remember."
Munoz: Chidero? They called him Chidero, I believe so. But I have his real name.
Hernandez: Right there is the first time that I played my first dance.
Munoz: So there was a VFW right there by the chantes?
Hernandez: It used to be right there. No! I don't know, but they used to call it the Catholic War Veterans, like that. The Catholic War Veterans--that's what they called it. That building, it was a house.
Munoz: So who did it belong to?
Hernandez: I don't know, I can't remember. Probably Riordan. __________.
Munoz: Okay, so you started in the late 1940s playing there, is that what you're saying?
Hernandez: Right in there, yeah. I started around there. Let's see, how old? I was young when I wanted to play. But I didn't want to play, I wanted to just go play ball. So one time Herman and [Laviano?], "Come on, come over here, we're gonna practice and play music." I say, "Oh, no." "Come on, we're practicing Tuesday." So I just happened to go over there. So we practiced Tuesday and Thursday, and Saturday we had a dance right there. And you know that dance lasted from, I think it was eight o'clock to six o'clock or five o'clock in the morning.
Munoz: The next day, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah! They were passing the hat around. You know how they pass the hat before? "Come on, keep on playing, keep on playing!" So Jesus Christ!
Munoz: What instrument were you playing?
Hernandez: I was playing guitar. I started playing guitar.
Munoz: Did you teach yourself, or did Herman teach you?
Hernandez: Well, Herman helped me a lot, he [taught] me a lot. A lot of these guitar players around here in Flagstaff, Herman [taught] them.
Munoz: A lot of them also had the ear for music.
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: Like my uncles, they said they learned by ear, music, uh-huh.
Hernandez: But Mike Ibarra and Jim Figuroa, they used to play by music.
Munoz: Oh, read music?
Hernandez: Reading music. But most of the older players that I played with, we just [played] by ear, you know. I don't even know how to read music, so what the hey? I knew a little bit, but I didn't know that much. That was my first dance I ever played. And Jesus Christ, my fingers were all--well, the chords got to look like they were in my fingers--'til six o'clock in the morning! And they still wanted some more!
Munoz: Oh, my goodness! Who attended those dances?
Hernandez: The old-timers and all the people that used to live around there. They used to get a lot of people. Those people liked to dance, I guess.
Munoz: Let's see, we'll continue with music. And you continue to play music now, is that correct?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: And you play with who?
Hernandez: The name, the group?
Munoz: Yeah.
Hernandez: Los Alegres. I've played in so many bands, but I don't play so much now, like I used to, because now, they don't have that much. You know why? Money. Money ____________. If you want to get married, it's going to cost you, you know. (laughter)
Munoz: So it didn't cost you anything when you got married?
Hernandez: Well, it didn't cost me too much. We had ________ padrinos and Salvador Cortez, he was my best man. And Vera Sandoval, she was the maid of honor. So we had muchos padrinos. But let me tell you, when we first tried to get married, me and Irene, we were gonna go just to the court and go get married. But then her sisters, "No, no, no, no! We're gonna throw this and this and that." _____________. I was working in Belmont, I didn't have no money. So I said, "We get paid Saturday, we'll go get married Saturday." That's the way we were gonna do it, but, "No, ________." We had to wait until April 30. We waited three months, _____ so I could have some money to get married. And we had one of the biggest wedding dances here, _________. Herman Lucero and Jim and all those _______. Those are the guys that played for us.
Munoz: What was their name? Were they the Syncopaters? Or were they the Najas?
Hernandez: Probably more like the Nighthawks.
Munoz: Okay, one group was Alegras. Who's the other group you played with? Los Reyes?
Hernandez: El Coyote Band. _______ del Norte. Y los Quatros Alegres. That was me and Esther and Jenny--her husband, Jenny and Esther were husband and wife, ________ St. Johns. Played with them six years.
Munoz: And this was in the years between forties and....
Hernandez: Yeah, all that time in between to now.
Munoz: Up to present, okay.
Hernandez: But I played with a lot of groups, like I said before. And then the Rumberos were the famous Rumberos. As a matter of fact, even the (snaps fingers) what's the name? Herman said, "Are you going to play with us?" ______ those guys.
Munoz: El Hargee? [phonetic spelling]
Hernandez: El Hargee. And Los Delgarios [phonetic spelling]. Of course you know Pete Montoya. Victor Caramio. All those guys used to play. Mike Viapando even played with us. And then we had Nick Lucero. Frank Martinez played a lot with us too. And even Ray Gonzales. Oh, now my boys.
Munoz: They picked up?
Hernandez: Robert played with us. Trini Logan. A lot of these guys _______.
Munoz: And now they're younger. Now you've got a younger group you're looking at.
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: Not too many oldies, huh?
Hernandez: I'm the oldest now.
Munoz: Are you the only one that plays, that has played from the past? Well, okay, Mr. Estrella is another one that has.
Hernandez: Yeah, Steve Estrella. See, my brother, Safford, used to play with Steve Estrella and Toby Armijo. And I played with Steve Estrella too, all those guys.
Munoz: What type of music would you say you played?
Hernandez: Well, when we first started, we just played nothing but Spanish music. But then, as it started, you know, they keep on like this, like after that, you know, when people would get married, like to see a Mexican with a white or white with a Mexican or something. We started playing, what do you call that?, country western. One reason, a lot of people wanted to hear country.
Munoz: It was a request.
Hernandez: So what we'd do is mix it. Even rock 'n' roll, standard music. All kind of music now. But before, when I started, it was strictly Mexican. I don't know why, but that's all there was.
Munoz: That's ____________.
Hernandez: Spanish music, you know.
Munoz: What kind of instruments did you have in your band?
Hernandez: Well, we had trumpet players, we had saxophone players, guitar, bass, keyboard, drums. Of course we had to have drums. That kept about whatever we had. Even accordion players we used to have--those instruments. But _____ Raimundo Ceballos (
Munoz: My grandpa.) he used to play what do you call that big? That used to be a bass before, see. He played that. I saw him play a lot, even when I was young, _______. I heard all those guys [play]. But I wasn't _________. I really loved music, but I never did like to play it, because I was playing baseball, like I'm telling you. Fast pitch. I was more interested in baseball than music, so I was off and on like that--until I got a little older and they threw me out of the game so much.
Munoz: Okay, let's go to the baseball then. During the time you started playing softball in Flagstaff was....
Hernandez: ___________ like I'm telling you right there, ___________.
Munoz: Oh, the box.
Hernandez: I don't know, about eighteen years, _________ eighteen years.
Munoz: When you played for the box factory?
Hernandez: Coconino Box Factory. That was the old-timers __________. They weren't even old-timers, they were all young kids.
Munoz: They were young at the time.
Hernandez: Yeah. You know, in sports, I loved to play _____ bowling.
Munoz: What position did you play in softball?
Hernandez: Second base. That was my best position, in-field.
Munoz: And you played baseball up until just recently when you said....
Hernandez: Sixty-two years was the last time I ever got ahold of a ball _____.
Munoz: Who was the team that you played with then?
Hernandez: My family, my kids. That co-ed deal, whatever you want to call it, that they play on.
Munoz: Oh, your family, your boys and your girls.
Hernandez: Girls and some friends. ______.
Munoz: They told you you were too old, they said, "Forget it, Dad"?
Hernandez: No, they needed a pitcher, to tell you the truth, so I went out and threw the ball--I mean, pitched, what the heck.
Munoz: You also coached?
Hernandez: I coached Little League for twenty-five years.
Munoz: What were the names of the teams? Give me some names.
Hernandez: Well, the team that I had that I coached more was Los Indians. And we had Braves and we had _________, all kinds of things.
Munoz: I brought those pictures that you said you had a picture of, and you had all those people's names, right? Did you find it?
Hernandez: I think I've got it.
Munoz: Okay, we'll look at that later.
Hernandez: ___________.
Munoz: All right, we covered baseball, one of the best pastimes of your life.
Hernandez: Yeah, that was my mostly....
Munoz: You could have been a professional?
Hernandez: I should have.
Munoz: Okay, church. Community celebrations, what do you remember? What celebrations in the community do you remember?
Hernandez: Celebrating something, like the Sixteenth of September and all that?
Munoz: Do you remember that?
Hernandez: Uh-huh. In Williams they used to have the Sixteenth of September. I mean, they'd make a big, what do you call that?
Munoz: Fiesta?
Hernandez: A big deal, in those years. (both talking at same time, neither discernable)
Hernandez: What's his name, Luzano? He used to get up and give more speeches. They used to have speeches. And for the kids, for entertainment, they had something going outside, like riding--we used to run little sacks and all that stuff, you know, before, you know. And then they had a telephone pole full of grease. They had some money up there, and they push you up with like a seat, you know, with a stick. Put your hat _______ and then whoever win it, got it. But I don't think the [money was good?].
Munoz: That was in Williams?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: Who organized that, do you remember?
Hernandez: The old-timers in Williams, because that's what it was, the old-timers. ________ Mexico.
Munoz: I was going to say, that pole, was it metal?
Hernandez: No, a telephone pole, just like one of....
Munoz: Eee! ______________
Hernandez: I don't know where they got it, from the sawmill, as far as that goes.
Munoz: No one got any splinters, huh? It was too thick of grease? What did they grease it up with?
Hernandez: I don't know, but it was grease, I know. Just as dirty [as hell?]. Something funny, you know, they used to do that. But then inside [America?], they used to have it more in the American Legion. I don't think there was.... Well, we have always called that building the American Legion.
Munoz: Oh, in Williams?
Hernandez: In Williams. They used to have in there, they'd throw a banquet in there too. And they have a lot of speeches, "Viva Mexico!" and all that. Well, you know, Lucindo, he was the most, ____________, really big, you know. And they used to have those Mexican serapes on and all that. They were dressed, some with big hats, Pancho Villa get-up or something. "Remember ________." So that's why I say.... _________ got a picture here __________, how they would celebrate.
Munoz: And this is in Williams?
Hernandez: That's in Williams. But that used to be right there, and they used to call it an opera house, but I don't remember. Well, it had to be around the thirties, around there, or before. Because there's my dad. Here's my daddy.
Munoz: This is your dad?
Hernandez: My dad. ________ Senor Novarro, __________.
Munoz: So where was the building at? Oh, you said the opera house. And where was that located?
Hernandez: ____________.
Munoz: Ah, Novarro. Yeah, you can tell.
Hernandez: (in Spanish) _____________.
Munoz: And that little child is your oldest?
Hernandez: And then those people (in Spanish) __________. My kids have asked me __________. Even my mama, I don't even see my mom there. But that was probably in the twenties, again (Spanish) ________, I don't know.
Munoz: And the opera house in Williams, where was that located, what street?
Hernandez: It was located, I think it was on.... You know where the fire department is? The American Legion, the following street, going east, around there. It was there. It could have been Third Street or Fourth Street, something like that. There was a big building, grande, two-story, they used to have their meetings up there and everything.
Munoz: Where was this one, at the top and the bottom?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: The basement, would you say?
Hernandez: Yeah, mostly first floor, probably on the first floor, because the top one, it was a dancing hall.
Munoz: And this was for the Sixteenth of September?
Hernandez: Sixteenth of September, or Cinco de Mayo. You know when they used to have, or some gathering, that's where they used to go.
Munoz: Do you remember more so that they celebrated the Sixteenth or the Fifth?
Hernandez: The Sixteenth of September was a big deal. I don't know why.
Munoz: Oh, I do! The independence of Mexico from Espana.
Hernandez: I just got it because somebody gave it to me. Somebody gave it to me because of my dad. She told me, "I've got a picture of your dad and I'm going to give it to you." So they gave me that. But the only one that I....
Munoz: Jose Novarro?
Hernandez: Novarro, because like I used to see him every _______. (in Spanish) _________.
Munoz: Oh, okay. This would be interesting because I could probably get people to identify a lot of these people.
Hernandez: (inaudible)
Munoz: From Williams, yeah. How interesting. That's interesting. Okay, how about here in Flagstaff, what do you remember, celebrations here?
Hernandez: Well, I don't know. The only, Fourth of July _______. That's the most one that they celebrate here.
Munoz: Right. That you remember when you moved here, anyway. In Williams, we talked about no segregation, discrimination over there. So the church, there was a Catholic church for everybody?
Hernandez: For everybody. It was right there, let's see, that was on Fourth Street ________. That's the only church there was, as far as I knew--the Catholic, anyway.
Munoz: So when you came here....
Hernandez: It's not the new one. The new one is the other way. Now they got a new one.
Munoz: So when you came here and you realized that there might be another church, but you could only attend one of those churches, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: ______________.
Hernandez: (in Spanish) _______________ Guadalupe.
Munoz: So how many churches would you say were in Williams?
Hernandez: I just remember one, Catholic, because we were all Catholic.
Munoz: And one cemetery, I guess, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah. I don't remember another church. There could have been another one, but I don't remember.
Munoz: And funerals, your dad died here in Flagstaff?
Hernandez: Yeah, he passed away here in 1965. Y mi mama __________ in 1974.
Munoz: Now, at that time, the funerals and all that were....
Hernandez: In the church.
Munoz: Our Lady?
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: And do you remember, as a child, ever going to any funerals or wakes in Williams?
Hernandez: In Williams? (pause) Yes, so many people would go. (in Spanish) _______________.
Munoz: Yeah, very united.
Hernandez: Oh, very united, you know. When something happens, everybody knew right away, everything, so they try to....
Munoz: Uncle Ray, when I asked him, and they lived in the chantes, he said that it was such a large family, and the chanteros were such a large family that they felt everyone's hurt, everyone's happiness, and everyone's loss. It was just one big family.
Hernandez: There was a lot of gatherings ____ before, you know. _________ gente.
Munoz: Yeah, one big family. Nothing like that now.
Hernandez: You don't see that here.
Munoz: You're right. So the services, when you were a little kid, were the services conducted at home, or were the services in the church?
Hernandez: Some were. I think they were in the church. Pero the priest to come to the house, tambien. You know, people. It's just like the doctor, you know, before. The doctor used to go to your house. Now you gotta go to him!
Munoz: Times have changed. And the mortuary in Williams, where was that located?
Hernandez: It was on Fifth Street, I think, but to the west side.
Munoz: There was only one mortuary?
Hernandez: Yeah. It wasn't even a big mortuary. (in Spanish) __________.
Munoz: Who owned it? One room, huh?
Hernandez: And I think after that, the mortuary.... No, I was thinking they converted, because now the mortuary, I don't even know where it is now, to tell you the truth, because everything is (in Spanish) ____________, new church, you know, new church. Where in the heck is the mortuary?
Munoz: Was that church.... Oh, the mortuary _______. I went to my Tia....
Hernandez: Someplace around there is the mortuary. I'm pretty sure it's someplace around there, _______.
Munoz: I'm going to ask you for some names of people to contact in Williams that still live there that you might know, that I can do an oral history on them in Williams, because I think that would be interesting. Okay, how would you describe weddings and bap[tismals]?
[END TAPE 2, SIDE B; BEGIN TAPE 3, SIDE A]
Hernandez: Weddings over in Williams before, they were (Spanish) ________, just like a regular wedding, just like you have here (Spanish) _________. Of course I wasn't that much, that long over there for weddings. I was too young. But the weddings that you had out there, eh, __________.
Munoz: Were they conducted at home, or at the church?
Hernandez: No, they were conducted [in] church, that I remember, that I know. The only ones anyway, they would come back to the church. They say years long before that they used to conduct it at the house. But I never saw one, so I can't tell you.
Munoz: About baptismals, do you remember? Well, your wedding, you gave me a description of your wedding. That was because you decided to save the money to have a nice wedding.
Hernandez: Yeah, we had a very nice wedding ___________ that's one thing. I think it's one of the big ones that really happened here.
Munoz: Here at the armory.
Hernandez: I mean, it was....
Munoz: What year was it?
Hernandez: In '49.
Munoz: Okay, and then the weddings and baptismals, would you say they were traditional?
Hernandez: Yeah, I guess so.
Munoz: Traditional, I mean like what your parents probably thought __________.
Hernandez: No, when we got married, you know, I don't know, like ___________ her dad, ________ Mexico, and my dad (Spanish) _______________ arrived. So right after we got married, we went to his house, and he put us in the little bedroom or linen closet or something, and they put the (Spanish) ___________.
Munoz: Oh, is that where they put the rosary over?
Hernandez: After everything was over, (Spanish) _________, you're married _______________.
Munoz: The blessing.
Hernandez: The blessing, in this house, right there. That's where all this happened, at the house.
Munoz: Oh, okay.
Hernandez: Not at the church. Well, at the church you already had a blessing by the padre, but then after that, I guess they had a tradition for that, I guess. Her folks, you know. But her dad, ___________. In other words, you're from this sack to another sack ___________.
Munoz: You've been accepted to the family.
Hernandez: Yeah, uh-huh.
Munoz: Was Irene's father pretty strict?
Hernandez: No, her dad was very nice. Even when _______ was going on with her. As a matter of fact, well, you know how when you go out and dance and that, I used to wait for her. And I was going to school, we were going to Flagstaff High School. I knew Irene, real young. I think she was, when I came here to Flagstaff I met her right away, so we started going out together. And when she started going to high school, I used to go by her house and walk and wait for her, and then both of us would go up to high school. ______ bike and doesn't walk back and forth, okay. That happened for quite a while, and then finally it hit dad. He called me, he said, "It doesn't look good, (Spanish) _____________." He told me, "If you want to go out with Irene, I want you to come and knock on the door and go in and (Spanish) ____________," or something like that, you know. Now, that's one thing he.... I don't know whether that's the way they do it over there.
Munoz: He thought that was more proper.
Hernandez: Yeah, instead of, oh, I don't know.
Munoz: Just waiting for her at the door.
Hernandez: Or on the street or something. No, he gave me permission to go see her and take her to wherever we wanted to go. And then I went in the service and the same damned thing, same thing __________.
Munoz: Again. So you had to start all over.
Hernandez: _________ Irene, until I was twenty-two years and she was twenty-one. That's when we got married. But they were real nice. It's just like my folks, they really like Irene. Oh, _______, Irene.
Munoz: What type of meals or traditional foods were served at your wedding or at the baptismals that you remember?
Hernandez: First thing that was served was chocolate with pan mexicano. My dad bought a fifty-gallon Mexican bread from Williams. I don't know whether they used to make bread here. Over in Williams was the best Mexican bread anybody could ever make. They had a big _______, you know, how to cook it. (Spanish) ___________________ chicken or whatever.
Munoz: Mole, uh-huh.
Hernandez: And potatoes and beans and rice and whatever, and beans and all that. It was something like that--a regular Spanish meal, instead of steaks and all that.
Munoz: Sounds good! Okay, let's see, what stories could you share about Depression that you can remember? You were in Williams at that time, weren't you?
Hernandez: I was in Williams, and I was only five years old, so I don't remember much of Depression, because like I said (Spanish) ________, like I say, we never suffered much _________ because President Roosevelt, that's when he opened the WPA [Works Progress Administration] and all that for kids to go work. And C.C. [Civilian Conservation Corps], that's when it was organized, during these times, during Depression, to get some money. That's why I don't think the Depression was that ___________ real bad around here. I mean, I don't know about how it was in other countries--I don't know, you know. But to us, it was....
Munoz: Some people explain it as it affected them, and other people it didn't affect. But you know, they always had something to eat, because people, like you say, you know, like, for instance, here....
Hernandez: Well, during the Depression I never heard that people were starving people ________, because _______ or something like that. I never heard nothing like that. But like I said, we were, to go, we were very (Spanish) _________. They had a big _________ you know. That's when I started learning milking cows and all that stuff so we could have something.
Munoz: Right. That was at seven years old. Imagine, how many kids are going to go out and work at that age?
Hernandez: Well, my dad, like I said, my dad was a hard man. You can ask any of my brothers--especially Manuel ______, and [Loper?]. He'll tell you he was a mean man. But my dad, I think he might have gone, like years and years ago, like in Mexico, since he came from ________. He had a rough time when he was growing [up]. That's why he ran away.
Munoz: And that's all he knew, and he wanted you guys to survive, so he taught you how to survive, by working.
Hernandez: My dad didn't believe in sitting down. Well, of course there were no TVs or none of that, but my dad didn't believe in that you know, _______. When we were growing, we were working. Like when we were here, like I was telling _____ Riordan. We were there. There was no such thing as going down to the movies, because we didn't even have a car. There's nothing but work. And my mom used to get mad at my dad and say, "Leave the kids alone," in Spanish, you know, (in Spanish) "__________." All we were doing is cutting wood for the winter. We filled a room as big as my front room. And I mean, you don't throw it in. Each piece was stacked. And for nothing! When we left, my dad was very generous, he gave it to the people. And here we are.... My dad was very generous. My dad would do anything for anybody. That's one thing I'll say about my dad, he was....
Munoz: I know you might feel sometimes, and you say, "he's mean"--well, that's all he knew. You were boys and he had to teach you how to survive and work, because that's what you were going to end up doing.
Hernandez: Yeah. I mean, he told us when we were young, "If you guys want to have something, you're going to have to learn how to work. They're not going to give [you anything]." And he's right.
Munoz: Okay, how about crime in Williams?
Hernandez: Crime wasn't like now. In Williams _______. The only crime out there that I think, was this bootlegging. ____________. But let me tell you something, there was only one policeman in Williams, by the name of Bill [Camel?]. I'll never forget that, Bill Camel was his name, he was a policeman. I think he was the only policeman. I don't know whether we had any more policemen __________. But....
Munoz: Was he a policeman or a sheriff?
Hernandez: Sheriff, yeah. He was a sheriff. But up to this day, I still say that he was given under the table to keep quiet. My dad used to make beer, and he used to make root beer for us. A lot of guys and a lot of other people, they used to make. That's when all that wine, you know, __________ vino de papas, you know.
Munoz: Yeah.
Hernandez: That's a fact. And you know, we used to help these people out there, and you know what, they used to ___________ give us a shot of wine. And it's a wonder we never got to get drunk or something, you know. And Emilio Villa, he had one of the biggest places up there--nothing but corn. (in Spanish) _______________. I mean, a huge one. I think it covered more than two blocks. He had a big ______ and a big white house. But, corn wine or whatever you want to call it, a lot of that stuff, you know. Everybody used to--I think it was bootlegging out there.
Munoz: Oh, sure, sure. But because it was against the law, a lot of people don't want to [talk about it?].
Hernandez: My mom used to get mad at my dad because people that like to drink, they used to go all times of hours, even at three o'clock in the morning. That's what my mom didn't like, which I don't blame her, ________. They go out there and knock on the door (raps table with knuckles). (in Spanish) _________. I think my dad gave more beer than selling the darned thing. ________ that's the way I feel.
Munoz: Where did he make it?
Hernandez: At the house. He put one of those kegs, big barrels, or whatever you want. Made it right there in the house. All that bootlegging was made in the house in those years. I don't know now. Everybody had his own.
Munoz: So where did he get the bottles?
Hernandez: The bottles? That's one thing I don't know. My dad used to make beer, but he had bottles, and bottles for the root beer. Where did he get the bottles, I don't know. Now, that's one thing I can't tell you, because I don't know, and he had plenty of bottles, to tell you the truth. But a lot of those guys they didn't throw the bottles like you do here.
Munoz: No.
Hernandez: Those bottles were precious.
Munoz: They were expensive, yes.
Hernandez: So I figure, I think the [bill?] that my dad was filling on, they'd take the bottle up there just to get it refilled or something.
Munoz: Okay, so there was [no] outstanding crime. Were there any killings?
Hernandez: They didn't claim it more like a crime, you know.
Munoz: Not the Prohibition.
Hernandez: But it was like, remember (in Spanish) ______________ Al Capone _____________. Of course that's a big deal. But here it's nothing but a little ________, and it wasn't a big city ________.
Munoz: Right, there wasn't that much going on. So about killings or knifings, was there any of that?
Hernandez: Oh, no, I never heard of anybody getting killed. The only one that probably got killed is probably in an automobile or whatever.
Munoz: Or at the sawmill.
Hernandez: Yeah. Like Jimmy Gonzales, he got killed flying his own plane--he crashed.
Munoz: Where?
Hernandez: In Williams.
Munoz: Jimmy Gonzales was a pilot?
Hernandez: He was a pilot, he had his own plane.
Munoz: Is that the espanol that had the money?
Hernandez: [Yes.] He got killed in a plane. I think that was his own plane.
Munoz: His personal plane? And that was at Williams?
Hernandez: Yes, in Williams. ________ a musician, Paul Cerano, I think he was.
Munoz: Paul who?
Hernandez: Yeah, Paul Cerano. When he was playing with Herman and all those ___________ in Williams. He got killed in a car accident. It was a car accident.
Munoz: All right, we covered Prohibition. Your dad played a good part in making his own booze, okay. He sold it. Well, you say he gave it away. You know what, I have had so many of those stories that they gave it away instead of made money off of it. It's interesting. He was the only one in your family that made it? Did you help him?
Hernandez: Uh-huh, yeah, my dad. ________. I don't remember my grandpa never. My dad, I don't know, he tried experiments _________, I don't know.
Munoz: Where did he buy his materials, do you remember?
Hernandez: The materials? I don't know.
Munoz: You were too young. Means of transportation. You were always walking, huh?
Hernandez: Ninety percent. Well, nobody had that kind of money to buy a new Ford or whatever. The only one that had a Model "T" was Jose Sanchez, the only one that I remember. I'll never forget that. And then there was another, Mr. Lebst [phonetic spelling]. He had an antique _____________ about 1914, some of those that were made out of ________. Ah, man. But of course when you have money, you have money.
Munoz: Okay, during the time you were growing up, did you work? Yeah, your dad had you doing all types of work when you were growing up, huh, as a young person.
Hernandez: Uh-huh.
Munoz: And then you continued to do all types of jobs. When you were going to school, or whenever you thought you were going to school, and you were off for the summer, did you work then as well?
Hernandez: Yeah, uh-huh.
Munoz: So all year 'round you worked?
Hernandez: Yeah, I used to work. My dad, he always told me, "If you want something, you're going to have to work."
Munoz: Okay, let's talk about medicine. What types of medicines were used at home, do you remember?
Hernandez: For cuts, iodine. _____________, just iodine _______. And then if you had fever, they used to put us like an Indian with potatoes and vinegar or whatever you want to call it. And that's for the fever.
Munoz: So you used to go to bed with papas on your forehead, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: Con ________.
Hernandez: Si, _________. Headaches and something. I don't think there was much pills.
Munoz: Okay, and the doctors in Williams, who were they?
Hernandez: There's one doctor, I don't know, I'm kind of ________. Dr. Sechrist was out there. I don't remember ________. I just don't remember. But the doctors over there, they wasn't much of a doctor, let's put it that way. You know what they used to call them? Horse doctors.
Munoz: Who was that?
Hernandez: But I don't know his name. The only reason I say, you know, in those years you know, they used to iron with las plantas.
Munoz: On top of the stove, uh-huh.
Hernandez: Up on the stove, you know. So when I hurt myself, my hand, by cranking that Model "T" of Sanchez, you know, it'd backfire on me and hit me on my arm here, and this part of my arm went under my hand. I stayed over in Williams--when my dad moved over to Riordan, I stayed in Williams with Herman Cisneros' parents. That's when I got hurt. And he took me to his doctor, but I don't remember his name. I didn't even know the man, to tell you the truth. And his wife was ironing, and he said, "Let me use your ironing board for a minute." All right, so she stopped. He put my arm like this and he crunched it like, "Aiyee!" I never hurt so much. He pulled that arm like that. _________ it hurt so much. __________. He pulled it too tight to set it, and he's the one that set my arm. When my dad came to Williams from Flagstaff, (in Spanish) _____________, the one that baptized me, actually. He had told my dad what happened, so my dad said, "Okay, get your stuff together." That's when I went to Riordan. He took....
Munoz: So you came to the hospital over here?
Hernandez: Well, he brought me from over there, from that doctor, down to Riordan. And that was it. It was almost healed anyway, because about a week, I guess. And that was it.
Munoz: So doctors made housecalls at that time?
Hernandez: Yeah. Oh, yeah, doctors ______.
Munoz: And you don't remember his name?
Hernandez: No, that's one thing I don't remember. We didn't use.... Nosotros, I think we were pretty well healthy, let's put it that way. We never needed a doctor or anything--not that I remember. ______ you went to see a doctor.
Munoz: So your mom took care of your fevers and your cuts.
Hernandez: Mom. Or una senora que su _______________. She would come.
Munoz: So there were curranderas in Williams?
Hernandez: Uh-huh, they used to be (in Spanish) _______________________.
Munoz: Who were they, do you have any idea?
Hernandez: I don't know what her name [was]. They were old ladies that were smarter than the doctors are a lot of times.
Munoz: Did I ask if you were born at home, or were you born at the hospital?
Hernandez: I don't know, I think I was born at the house. That's [one thing] I don't know. In those years, a lot of kids were born in the house, by the help of a neighbor or something.
Munoz: Right, women all around. Okay, so you don't know of any curranderas and so on and so forth. Folklore. What stories do you remember? You know, like La Urona.
Hernandez: We heard that story up there in Williams, because the Santa Fe dam was right there. They used to tell us esta La Urona, and this and that, at twelve o'clock, this and that, because they used to say that La Urona, because somebody drowned in that dam or whatever the case might be. So that was the only (in Spanish) ______________. When we were young, we waited one night, and it was windy as heck, and we went out to that dam out there, just curious. I don't think we made it out to the dam (laughter), we got scared and we came back. That's the only time. (in Spanish) _______________. I don't know if it's true. A lot of people (in Spanish) _____________. But I don't know whether that's true, to tell you the truth.
Munoz: And no one appeared in front of you. (laughs)
Hernandez: Yeah. (laughs)
Munoz: Okay, sheepherding. Did your father do any sheepherding?
Hernandez: Yeah, he did when he came from Mexico, as a young kid.
Munoz: Oh, we talked about the Poquets maybe, possibly.
Hernandez: I think that was their name, was Poquet, (in Spanish) _____________. He knew that [trail] from Williams to Phoenix, every winter, to take 'em down to Phoenix.
Munoz: En caballo, huh?
Hernandez: Well, they did most of it walking--my dad did--only walking. He had a sheep dog or whatever ___________. (in Spanish) __________ but I don't know who. (in Spanish) ______________. That's why my dad, he got to be a heck of a cook. My dad could make comida.
Munoz: So he had to maintain his own camp, huh?
Hernandez: Yeah.
Munoz: So there was only two, do you remember?
Hernandez: He said only two of 'em. I don't know who it was.
Munoz: How many sheep, do you remember?
Hernandez: I think it was a bunch of sheep, that's all he said. (in Spanish) ____________. Fifty or more, I don't know. A big herd. He said he used to __________.
Munoz: I'm going to go to your _______ when you were in the service. They took you, because it was during World War II. Where did you have to go?
Hernandez: When I was going overseas, we were going towards....
Munoz: I'm talking about here in Flagstaff. What building, or where did you have to meet? Tell me the process of how that came together.
Hernandez: Well, when I went into the service, _________ used to be Procnold [phonetic spelling] or whatever. That's where the Selective Service was. So I had to report there. And then from there they sent me to Phoenix, and we went through a physical and this and that. And out of twenty-one, seven of us only passed, because some 'em _________ or flatfoot or deaf or whatever you want to call it--for some kind of reason. So I wound up going to Sacramento, up there--some camp over there, I don't even remember no more. And there is where they gave me all my shots. You get a haircut and all that stuff to prepare you. So then from there, they put me on the train. I thought we were going _______ Camp Roberts in California, but a lot of 'em took my orders--they told me that I was supposed to go to Texas. _______ some California, Texas, all the western ________. So from there I went to camp in Texas, and I took my training there in Campbell, Texas. Then I got a ten-day furlough and I came over here, and I was supposed to take advanced training that they give you advanced training. And they tell you, my orders were to report to Paris, Texas. So I went over there, and it was on a Saturday that I reported. The Sunday, they woke us up at one o'clock in the morning and they told us.... You're green, you know, you don't know what the heck's going around, but you learn fast. So [they] said, "Start turning in your clothes and everything to the supply and get your...." They gave us khakis. So they gave you khakis someplace around the South Pacific--that's where we were going to wind up. So from there _________ San Pedro, California. From there, they loaded us in a ship _______ go overseas. And I'll never forget, I was 1,032 troop to board that _____, because they put your number.
Munoz: When you're boarding?
Hernandez: On your steel helmet, like that. So from there we went up towards the Aleutian Islands and it took us thirty-one days to go down because they took us down toward the Philippine Islands. When we got down to the Philippine Islands, Germany had already surrendered and all that. It was in '45. So then from there, we stayed aboard, going up north. So we were going to go in the invasion of Japan. We were told--well, we weren't told, but we knew. You know, old-timers and that, because there were some troops from Germany that came on. They were all mad because they had already fought in Germany, and they put 'em goin' into Japan, you know. But we were right there close to all that, down in the Pacific, see. But they let us in the ship, and they tell us we were gonna go to Japan. ___________ all kinds of ships were in there. [Level?] from there, well, President Truman gave the okay to drop the atomic bomb. So that's what saved us. They predicted that 500,000 of us--I say "of us," we were all there--on the first wave was gonna get killed. That's what they predicted. And then they was supposed to be goin' in the first wave like that, and they were gonna wait three months after that to send the second wave in, _____________. They had already _______ a plan, you know, how it was gonna be. But I was just one of those lucky that I didn't get to the real deal, or else I would have gone in there. But it was during World War II, you know.
Munoz: When you left, how did your parents feel about that, do you remember?
Hernandez: Well, it's just like any other parent. You know, I was barely eighteen years.
Munoz: What did your dad tell you?
[END TAPE 3, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B]
Hernandez: ... seventeen years I wanted to join the navy, but my mom had already given the okay, but I needed my dad's signature, but my dad wasn't here, he was in California at that time. So they refused me. Well, they didn't take me, you know. So then after that, (inaudible). I was just getting close to eighteen anyway, so then that's when I got drafted and went into the army.
Munoz: But you wanted to join the navy, you said?
Hernandez: Yeah, I wanted to go to the navy, but they didn't want me because I needed my dad's [signature]. That's when I got mad with McNerney and I quit school.
Munoz: You were just not a happy camper then, huh?
Hernandez: Unt-uh.
Munoz: Well, Pete, looks like we've come to an end here. (laughter) It does take a long time.
Hernandez: It's a lot of time. Then when I came here to Flagstaff, everything was a lot different, than in Williams.
Munoz: So you've seen it grow.
Hernandez: You know, when I got married, I lived in Casas de los ___________ Fuego, free. Then over here, as a matter of fact, I lived over here, where I made my mom the house, but I didn't want to live there. I wanted to be on my own. So finally after all those years, we decided to buy here.
Munoz: So did you build this house?
Hernandez: No, it was already built. ________ put all these cabinets here. That's why I never took 'em down, I never wanted 'em down. ______ remodeling. My dad made it, see, so that's why I left it like this.
Munoz: Who did you buy the property from?
Hernandez: From the Millers--American _________ like that. As a matter of fact, they were getting divorced. She wanted $4,000 and he wanted $4,000, so they came out in the paper that it was for sale, first come, first served. So I told Irene--I was already working in Belmont--I told Irene, "Make sure you get over there before seven ___________. Make sure you get over there before seven. Whoever goes in there ______ because there was three people who wanted...." Irene was the first one, so that's why we _______. As a matter of fact, my dad gave me $500. All I had was $500, all we had was $500 that day. So they wanted $1,000 down. And I bought this property here for $8,000. That was in 1957.
Munoz: Eight thousand, wow!
Hernandez: And then a big bill hit us, __ payment _____. _______ I think it was.