Child Pageantry has always been a problem, my sister was in these, she was four years older than me and our mom used to drag us around to all of these so she could compete, its psychologically damaging to these little girls and I can see it in my sister today and its fucking terrible.

The parents use the kids like little living dolls, and belittle them with no regard to these girls feelings, I can remember my mom telling my sister she wished other little girls in the competition were her daughter because they would "do the dance routine right!", making her stay up to absurd hours of the night before she was even 10 years old practicing doing things she hated, getting hit for refusing to cooperate, basically she was being forced into not be a child and I remember seeing this rampant with most of the mothers there.

If I had the power I would seriously walk through the room with all of these mothers and punch them right in the mouth, they are bad fucking people, and what they are doing is fucking child abuse.

But alas, the pageants themselves should not be made illegal, nothing "technically" is illegal in the shows, what should happen is child protective services should start being present at the shows, this trend needs to die out, or at least die out in its current form.

child pageantry is nothing about the kids, and everything about the parents. it's not so much that we should ban pageantry because banning something doesn't make it cease to exist, it's more that we should try to understand what is wrong psychololigically with these parents that they are prepared to put their children through this insane degree of fucktardery.

[edit. and oh my god, i just made the best typo ever in that post. i've left it in. see if you can find it]

Banning child pageantry is like treating the sympton. But if you haven't got a cure for the disease, what else are you going to do? It not like we are going to push scores of parents out of this horrible, horrible mindset. I mean, each probably has had something different happen to them to force them into, as you say, this insane degree of fucktardery. And to "cure" each of them you would need to get to the centre of what had happened to each of them, separately. True, you could group them each into general classes of psychololigical trauma, but to correctly identify which one each of them were subject to would require them to counselled one-to-one, which would be impractical.

What really needs to happen is that society needs to change on some fundamental level to... what? I really don't know, but there needs to be some sort of cultural shift, maybe away from sexuality, maybe away from sexuality based around child-like qualities (hairlessness, etc.), maybe away from the concept of the beauty pageant itself, but some sort of change in our entire psyche.

Child Pageantry has always been a problem, my sister was in these, she was four years older than me and our mom used to drag us around to all of these so she could compete, its psychologically damaging to these little girls and I can see it in my sister today and its fucking terrible.

It doesn't, if you were taking that seriously. They do make underwear for teens (under the brand Victorious) which consists of the same modest bikini-style panties that every other manufacturer produces. Nevermind, they don't even do that, that's a different company.

Goddamnit let a little girl be a little girl before she has to know the horror of running around with a permanent wedgie!
Seriously. When I was seven, I knew what sex was, I got that kids had crushes on each other, but if you would have handed me a thong and a pair of high heels, I would have laughed in your face and climbed up a tree. I still think those things suck, who wants to inflict them on a child?

I agree, "children" and "lingerie" should never be in the same sentence, because what the actual fuck. If that's the sort of thing this politician is trying to ban I can hardly blame him. I don't usually agree with anything that forces people how to dress a certain way, but anything that tries to sexualise children should be banned.

I'm usualy not for banning things as well UNLESS it comes to children and their mental / physical well being. I don't think taking children to padgents and dressing them in lingerie and then parading them as if they were a doll in front of strangers is healthy.

Exactly, you don't want them growing up and having low self esteems due to their attaching undue importance to external beauty. There are some girls in the fashion industry who many would consider extremely beautiful but they don't think so themselves. I don't know what the exact number is, but I had read somewhere that 50% of the people in the fashion industry suffer from depression and low self esteem. You don't want that number going up, especially with children.
*Edit: Typo

While I agree with you that the practice is disgusting, can you actually tell me how you think these girls are being harmed? Your main argument seems to be, "it's wrong, I don't like it, it isn't right, it should be banned" which is never an attitude that turns out well.

Personally I think this is abhorrent, but I can't actually see what harm it is going. Sure the girls will probably grow up to be quite unpleasant; is that a crime?

I'm in Canada. But I remember the ridiculous freedom fries and ban on french wine in the states. The states typically hate anything French. Watch em make child pageants mandatory just to do the opposite of the French.

I watched a few episode and many (not enough) parents refuse to put their kids in makeup, let them choose the outfits, and let let them decided when/if they even wanted to perform. Not all pageants are bad it's the
'glitz' shows that tend to make the kids look... well, uncomfortably sexual.

Gosh that makes me so uncomfortable. I worked at a mall or a few years when I was younger and they would do these fashion shows and there would be 11 to 15 year old girls in these weird glass boxes showing off outfits from various stores- they would be 'frozen' in provocative poses and it was just.... the strangest goddammed thing I have ever seen really.

It's still about putting them in a position where they stand in front of a bunch of people and get judged on how pretty they are. Them wanting to do it doesn't make it better, parents are supposed to protect their kids from exactly this type of situation. Competition is fine, and not all judgement is bad, but this isn't really a merit-based thing.. if you run the farthest, you win the ribbon.

On the internet, it's not possible to have an opinion, or make a joke, without waves of morons coming out of the woodwork to attack you. As for me? I'm all for banning these shows. They don't start getting sexy until after puberty anyway.

Somebody please do this. It's something I've thought about a couple times - something like /r/conspiracy but different. It would be based more on exploring alternative perspectives without the conspiracy angle.

The argument I would make against that is that the express goal of a beauty pageant is sexualization of the person. The goal is to have the person judged, at least in part, for their aesthetic qualities and human aesthetics and sex are tightly paired.

The express goal of sporting events is competition athletic and mental ability, which has its merits and demerits. On the whole though, this is not something reviled by our society.

My two cents.

Minor edit: I don't think it is the government's responsibility to ban such activities but I do think it would be responsible of people to shun such activities.

To be fair, "athletic and mental ability" is something grown men are judged by and so boys are encouraged to do better at this. Aesthetics is something women are judged by and apparently encouraged to practice at an early age. I think considering pageants sexual is kind of like a woman getting turned on by little boys practicing football.

I never thought I'd take this approach since reddit tends to sexualize little girl pageants and manipulates its readers into thinking the same but when you analyze it, it's very analogous to sports. I wouldn't say it's the people involved sexualizing it but the pervs and the paranoids out there. I will say that rarely I've seen shit on reddit involving pagaents that I think does cross the line and teaching little girls to become whores instead of women. But by and large, I don't think child pageants are a big deal, at least if the kids want to do it. They're practicing as young boys do, to practice their social appeal.

He meant "draw from", not "draw to". By banning one and allowing the other, you are drawing such a line.

Maybe it's necessary—I hate this shit viscerally—but there's a creepy factor when the government decides "This isn't objectively harmful, but it's socially unacceptable regardless and thus forbidden". That's where race-mixing was half a century ago, and it's where the Santorums want to take porn and condoms.

I don't know why, but it seems there is a misunderstanding. I said nothing about abolishing pageants- as I've replied to another poster, I feel that it IS in fact the government's job to consider whats best for a minor when the parents aren't. This applies across the board.

What if the child enjoys it is something that's tough to answer in my opinion. Depending on the age of the child, the child may actually hate it but say they enjoy it because it makes their parents happy. I think an important factor to look at may be whether the child is dressing herself (or himself) or if the parents are dressing them.

But as far as what children enjoy, children enjoy lots of things that aren't necessarily good for them. Some children would happily eat ice cream until they are vomiting everywhere, but that doesn't mean we should just allow them to do it. In the U.S., the law say minors can't give consent, legally. So even though some 11 year old kid might want a tattoo really bad, it's not going to (legally) happen.

There are kids that enjoy pageants and they in no way harm the kids. They are 'Natural pageants' kids get up in their normalish clothes and get to sing, dance, do a cheer, or do whatever their little talent is. They get to be commended for their work and get to feel proud of themselves. Hell there are even boys that do it cause they like that they get to wear awesome suits and win money! Not all pageants are the same and not all are harmful to children.

I don't mind the idea of child pageantry if it could be brought down to more a more reasonable form. I have a daughter and I think it would be fun for her to do something simple, like a talent and dress up event. But no crazy make up, maybe letting her pick out a favorite Disney princess style outfit and dress up and have fun.

No trophys, no pressure, just something where they get to be little kids and have fun dressing up. I definitely don't have any interest in kids posing as sexed up adults. Since no such thing really exists, I won't let her within a 1,000 miles of that toddlers and tiara's kind of crap. Since that won't happen, I'll just let her do other cool stuff like scouts, 4h, FFA, rodeo stuff (Mutton Bustin ftw). Life's too short to not have your kid try all kinds of interesting new stuff right?

As much as I would love to see that shit thrown out, I don't think the government should be able to ban pageants. Fact is we shouldn't be able to take away people's freedoms like that. If your daughter wants to wear a dress and put on makeup for a contest then I'm not going to stand in the way of that.

Totally agree, but this pageants go beyond playing pretend. If it was based on what the kids want, let them dress up and put on make up, hell yeah, that'd be fun, most of us girls did it anyways when we were kids, with mom's stuff. But these parents take it to a level that borders child abuse. That's what should not be tolerated.

While I could see some argument being made that children's pageants are demonstrably encouraging and abetting treatment of children which is fundamentally abusive both physically and emotionally, I think the banning of certain types of clothing for children will almost certainly lead to some incredibly stupid and misguided enforcement down the road: Mom and Dad dressed Lily up as a princess or let her wear a tutu, so it's time to call child services. Lily snuck into Mom's makeup cabinet and tried on some lipstick, so mommy must be abusive.

So I think we can all agree that sometimes children just want to play at being grown-ups and that's--

And yet there is the instance of Abercrombie and Fitch trying to sell thongs for 7 year old girls. Is this bad enough to be an acceptable ban or do you really believe that "no thongs for children" could be turned into "no tutus for children"?

If someone is producing it then someone is buying it. Since when was absolute morality a certainty? Who are you to tell other parents how to raise their kids? As long as they don't do harm to the children then I don't see why we would want to be so archaic as to ban clothing.

Take into mind that this is France, which is developing a history of banning certain types of clothing to negate tangentially related problems, i.e. banning Burqas and other face-covering for ID purposes.

Child pageantry is ruining little girl clothes! I always thought little girl bikinis were so cute and non sexual until I saw an orange 5 year old wearing it down the cat walk in mini heels. On the beach it would be cute and casual, but now it's like, "Gross, that toddler looks slutty."

As someone who has worked as a lifeguard and taught swimming lessons, those little girl bikinis are the the dumbest things ever. Ok, they might look sort of cute, but most of them don't stay on properly, even when the kid is walking around, much less doing all sorts of swimming. Every single day last summer, there was at least one minor wardrobe malfunction with little girl bikinis. There were about 20 people per swim on average with 4 swims throughout the day, and maybe five per swim would be little girls wearing bikinis. Yes, they're 5, but if you want them to not show their chests in public (as North American culture does), make it so that it doesn't happen accidentally in the normal course of behaviour.

edits were to explain the frequency of the problem to better demonstrate the stupidity of the article of clothing

When I've been on holiday in Spain there's lots of very young girls who don't wear the tops, most of the parents don't care. Maybe Europe is just more lax in the whole getting naked policy, but yeah I don't see anything with it if they're little.

But I have noticed that what was once cute/embarrassing kiddie photos when they're naked in the bath or something are now seen as wrong. It's weird :/

When I was in Greece, there were people vacationing in the place I was in (mostly English and German) who just went topless on the beach even though it technically wasn't allowed. It's not a major tourist town, but I recall seeing a family where the mother was okay with her daughter going topless. I would guess they were German, but there's a small possibility could have been English. The girl had to be around 11-13, so there was a little bit of development in the chest. Not much, but enough to make me as an American uncomfortable. I was with a Greek female friend who's a few years older than myself, and this family was maybe 10 feet from us. My friend didn't think anything of it.

It really doesn't. I was 11 the last time I didn't wear a top at a summer camp at the seaside - I even have pictures, we were about 15 girls who started to look a little like teens, but who haven't yet developed anything and nobody was ashamed and nobody cared, not even the boys. Nowadays, I see children wearing tops. Eh.

when i was little i remember being really really pissed about that. i remember my second grade teacher was having a pool party/barbecue at her house, and i was adamant about wearing my brother's swim trunks. My mom refused to let me go because she was afraid i would became "the girl who ran around topless in front of all her classmates" for the rest of my school career.

Wait wait wait, how could you think a bikini is non-sexual? Bikinis are designed TO be sexual. They accentuate the breasts and butt of the wearer while bringing attention to the natural curves of the hips and waist of the wearer. Let's not kid ourselves and say the bikini isn't sexual, it absolutely is.

Bikinis don't accentuate the breasts and butt if you have no breasts and butt. Also, pretty much all 5 year-old bodies look the same. A 5 year-old girl could go topless and her body would look the same as a 5 year-old boy.

The fact that we expect a 5 year-old girl to cover her "breasts" is more of a reflection on our perverse notions of modesty. Even when kids run around completely naked, who cares? They're little kids!

There are different types of bikini. Kid bikini's don't have the cups that accentuate and round the breasts (because duh, kids don't have breasts). I wore 2 pieces when I was a kid because they were more comfortable and you had more variety (plus I preferred having those bikini shorts to swimsuits)

Some kids, just like some adults, have longer or shorter torsos that don't fit properly into a one-piece as well. This is also why the "tankini" style (which often has an overlap between top and bottom) is a far superior style of swimwear IMO. All the coverage, none of the hassle when you need to pee!

I wouldn't say it is always the parents job, humans are social creatures who rely on division of labour and sharing to succeed, we run schools because most people are not the best teachers, we run hospitals because most people are not the best doctors, so I fail to see why we assume anyone who has had sex must be the best parent.

Of course a parent should have rights and be thoroughly involved in raising their child but I don't see why other people, or in this case the government, cant speak up when they are doing something obviously wrong or detrimental to the child. The child has rights too, its not like they are property until they turn 18, so someone has to protect them from their guardians if the guardian is doing an unfit job.

If you want to claim the right to counsel parents in how to parent, I think you have to also take the responsibility of helping out with the parenting. Most people are eager on the first and absent on the second.

This isn't "I don't like something so I want to ban it." This is "I feel that the harm caused by this practice is far too great to allow it."

Societies should be granted the right to govern themselves according to the principles they choose. Those principles will frequently be terrible, as history shows us: we are still fighting for gay marriage, and the same reasoning that could outlaw gay marriage (ignoring the issue of consent and focusing on the issues of social fabric and so on), could also be applied to children's pageants. It was the same logic applied to the prohibition of alcohol, and the same logic still applied to the prohibition of drugs.

However, history has also shown us that we're also capable of evolving socially. When something presents itself, such as child pageantry, that is so clearly harmful and so obviously useless, we're within our rights to call for a ban. Yes, this will present us with a terrifying slippery slope. Get used to it. Life is not a binary system, be brave and deal with it.

Just because we only have experience in the principled tyranny of religious fundamentalism, that doesn't mean we should give up on principles all together and live in a libertarian clusterfuck.

Exploiting kids is fucked up. I don't think adults should be told whether or not to wear fabric on their heads, but if parents aren't classy enough not to whore out their babies, then Yes- ban child exploitation.

I agree. The sooner we can all admit that none of us really gained any wisdom when we turned 18, or 25, or whatever people consider "adult" now, the faster we can acknowledge our shortcomings and work on fixing them.

European paternalistic government at its worst. Treat people like adults and let them make up their own minds. How about letting people raise their own children?

I don't think you understand French politics. Nothing wrong with that, so I'll try to explain. France is a relatively conservative country. Not in the batshit-insane-climate-change-denier sense, but in the 'we have our culture and want to preserve it' sense. The French, in general, aren't anti-immigrant (although some individuals might be). They do, however, expect foreigners to assimilate into French culture. Not everyone wants to do this, so the government reacts by banning things that they feel are in conflict with French culture.

Is this the best approach? Probably not. But it's not a nanny state. The French government isn't trying to control thoughts or behaviors. They're trying to maintain a particular image of France.

Wait, you're automatically assuming they're competent. You realize that we have child protective services, right? You aren't allowed to do whatever you want with your children.

The issue is whether it's ok to force girls into these sexualized roles before they're mature. Do you really think that's a "it depends on the parent" topic? No, there is such thing as "too early" and it does damage the girls and society.

If you are a shitty parent, the government really does know what's better for your child than you do. I know you hate that sentiment on principle, but it's true. There's no barrier to entry for having a child and then fucking up its childhood.

but don't try to legislate the problem away or micromanage it from a centralized bureaucracy.

Oh... will the "free market" decide? Please, tell me how you're going to prevent thousands of little girls from being forced into a sexualized role prematurely without legislation. How more girls would you allow to be forced through pageants before whatever mystical force stops this practice? Is it fair for any girl to be forced into this role? What about her liberty? Is liberty only for parents?

I think it's simply a matter of consistency, at least in the States. Ban child pornography, then dress kids up as sluts and showcase them? Something doesn't add up here. If you're going to hold the position of "children should not be used for sexual gratification", then stop using them for sexual gratification. Seems reasonable to me.

Perhaps not. But try and find one that doesn't reward children for their looks. It's not only the sexualization of children we should be worried about, the main thing we should be worried about are the fucked up reward complexes we are putting in these kids heads.

European paternalistic government at its worst. Treat people like adults and let them make up their own minds.

Except it's not adults who are being mistreated, it's children. Also, France is one country out of many European nations, many of which would not agree with this policy. Would you like it if I said something ridiculous and inaccurate like "In America any yahoo teenager can walk into a shop and buy a 12 gauge instrument of death." Oh, wait.

I'm very tired and my mind is just not up to trying to make a rhyming comment, so excuse me for that.

The French have already banned burkahs, and though we all agree I'm sure that burkahs are a symbol of gender oppression, and whether or not you agree with them banning them, they have already started legislating clothes for French adults.

Isn't banning sexualising clothes for children, clothes often forced onto them by parents or peers and used in these disgusting pageants, and banning what kinds of clothes responsible adults can wear, two very different things? Although both should be treated fairly, children and adults should be treated differently. Kids can't vote, drive, and serve in the army for a reason.

I wouldn't say they're very different things, they're very similar and there's a thin line separating them. I would say that they shouldn't be legislating the clothes that children can wear, but should put more resources into child services type stuff. It's tough to say where they would draw the line if they did pass laws relating to the clothes, and an example someone else in this thread mentioned was that some halloween costumes or things like that might become "illegal" depending on how strict they get with the laws, and aren't necessarily indicative of parental abuse. I'm all for sending social workers to investigate extreme parents like some of the ones from Toddlers and Tiaras though, and I think that that's a way to address the real problem.

And just because I didn't rhyme, doesn't mean you can suddenly stop, sir.

Do we agree with this for its relation to our commonly hated show Toddlers & Tiaras or disagree because of the Santorum-like conservatism and telling other people how to live their lives?
TELL ME WHAT TO THINK, HIVEMIND

I think she has the right idea in mind, but I don't think banning them is the correct path to go. The correct intentions never seem to follow through. I just think people should be sensible enough to realize how crazy this shit is.

I agree with the first part, but once you get to the point where you start banning personal freedoms, everything starts to go south. I think instead of trying to tell people what to do or not do, they should focus on education and healthy advertizing.

While I don't like the idea of child models and pageants and the like, I dislike even more the idea of someone resorting to law, which is by necessity resorting to force, to stop people from doing this.

It's like, I'm not okay with people teaching their kids Christianity. Would I make laws prohibiting it? Fuck no.

"The precocious intrusion of sexuality leads to irreversible psychological damage in 80 per cent of cases" and can cause disorders such as anorexia, she warned.

Hold the phone lady.. Sources? You do realize we don't just get our genitals and sex drive issued at 18.. Right? We're hard-wired to want sex sometimes even before puberty, yet "sexuality" harms 80% of those exposed to it?

I know people see this and think it is the government butting in where it doesn't belong, but I disagree. I don't think government should tell people what they can and cannot wear, but at the same time children are not adults. We aren't talking about a little girl who is excited mommy let her wear lipstick for a special night out. We are talking about people who dress their children up to make them look sexy. A child SHOULD NOT be sexy. There is no good reason for child lingerie, none. It shouldn't exist. These pageants teach children that beauty and sexuality are the most important qualities they should possess. Why do ads use children when selling adult products? It's sick and disturbing. It is very close to child porn and it should be banned. It's not like the government is saying that kids have to wear certain types of clothing, it is preventing parents from making damaging decision. Yes, these parents should have the common sense not to dress their kids up like that, but since they don't, someone has to step in. Everyone worries about the parent's rights. I worry about the kids. Do I want the government telling me how to raise my children? No, of course not. But there should be a way to protect children when their parents are too stupid of morally bankrupt to do so themselves.

First thought: Where can I get that Siamese Rabbit??
Second thought: If children's bikinis are outlawed, only outlaws will sew children's bikinis.. (or they could, you know, take the rail into another country and buy them there)

I do think some of those clothes should not be allowed on children. In the US there is a show "Dance Moms" and in the episode I saw the 7-10 year old girls were dressed as burlesque dancers. Just a little far IMO. Then again they arent my kids so....

Yeah. I went over to a friend's house and his sister was watching that because, quote, "this is what I had to do growing up..." the dance instructor lady had them dress up in nude suits. And I wouldn't even call them that. They were flesh-colored bikinis, more like. It was awful. Dance Moms and Toddlers in Tiaras. Ugh.