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On hiatus

WriterSPNerContributor

If we reject the karma-caste-reincarnation trilogy, reject heaven/hell and believe that when we die our body turns to dust and our soul-energy is reabsorbed to wherever it came from (and this is a mechanism of natural law, there is no reward / bliss / merging or personal identity left behind), then what happens to nasty, evil people in the end?

To my mind, their body will turn to ash and their soul-energy will be reabsorbed like the rest of us, and technically we could be as nasty as we want and there are no cosmic consequences.

We would lose the chance to be immersed in Naam in our one precious human life, but if that has no impact on any kind of after-life then it's just a feeling of peace which makes life easier here and now but has no other function.

If an evil criminal has managed to avoid justice in this life, then it's his luck apparently. His evil actions are unable to catch up with him and he goes free without consequences. If he's a psychopath he probably lacks a regular conscience like the rest of us and probably doesn't even feel bad about what he did, so it's not like his conscience would punish him either.

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1947-2014 (Archived)

If an evil criminal has managed to avoid justice in this life, then it's his luck apparently. His evil actions are unable to catch up with him and he goes free without consequences. If he's a psychopath he probably lacks a regular conscience like the rest of us and probably doesn't even feel bad about what he did, so it's not like his conscience would punish him either.

Thoughts?

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Ishna ji
What you are asking lies at the core of all arguments and discussions of sin and salvation. It is the unstated reason why debates about karma rage and never resolve themselves. It is a the root of why Guru Nanak rejected both the theory of karma and notions of heaven and hell.

More to say later about that. For now,

Some "nasty people" including psychopaths get to live in their own filth for a lifetime, never truly happy even though they may feel always triumphant over others. When they die they look back on a lifetime of memories of living in filth and the pain that comes with having to conquer all, by any means, and never finding true contentment in that. Money and power and the symbols of status no longer make sense, bleeding to death from a violent death, hooked up to tubes in a hospital bed, hearing how one's fortune will be divided by relatives who think you are too dazed by morphine to hear them. No memories of true friendship or alignment within themselves. What a way to die!

Some psychopaths, and nasty people, are fortunate enough to run into people, like Guru Nanak, who can rescue them from the terrible world ocean, rather teach them to rescue themselves. Janamsakkis and gurbani tell of them. The tyrant Babar is a good example.

The doors to Darshan Sahib are open also to the nasties and psychos. No one is turned away. No one is damned. We can damn only ourselves.

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WriterSPNer

Some "nasty people" including psychopaths get to live in their own filth for a lifetime, never truly happy even though they may feel always triumphant over others. When they die they look back on a lifetime of memories of living in filth and the pain that comes with having to conquer all, by any means, and never finding true contentment in that. Money and power and the symbols of status no longer make sense, bleeding to death from a violent death, hooked up to tubes in a hospital bed, hearing how one's fortune will be divided by relatives who think you are too dazed by morphine to hear them. No memories of true friendship or alignment within themselves. What a way to die!

Some psychopaths, and nasty people, are fortunate enough to run into people, like Guru Nanak, who can rescue them from the terrible world ocean, rather teach them to rescue themselves. Janamsakkis and gurbani tell of them. The tyrant Babar is a good example.

The doors to Darshan Sahib are open also to the nasties and psychos. No one is turned away. No one is damned. We can damn only ourselves.

Click to expand...

We look and judge very superficially when it comes to both good and bad citizens of this world.
The post above makes you realise, that we may see the success of a big murderer and drug baron figure, but we don't see that huge empty hole inside him.
We don't see his wish to fill that hole with love, devotion and belief that the poorest beggar may have on the inside.

The world only sees his actions and success from crime. We don't see his pain or how he cries himself to sleep at night.

This also occurs vice versa, where we may feel that someone is really suffering, but they may be more content than anyone !!

As sikhs and gurmukhs we should try and have no dualities. This means that we shouldn't see or judge one person as a criminal and another as a law abiding citizen. OR one as in extreme joy and the other in devastating pain...etc...

This is what I learned from huge tragedies like 9/11.
I actually realised how dedicated, thoughtful and special the fire fighters actually were.
It showed me, that they don't just have jobs and careers of choice, but they have to have someing deep inside them to play that role.
Whether it is the worst drug dealer, pyschopath, child, labourer, teacher, paedophile, samaritan.......etc....etc...
No matter who they were, they were all attempted to be saved equally by the firefighters who risked their very own lives !!

This is probably one of the greatest acts of bravery to mankind that I can think of along with shaheedis.

Do I really have the guts to do that ??
I'm really not sure....!

So, if we feel that some one is as evil as can be, then we should just let them be in a sense.
This means to make sure that we don't fall into the ego traps and start judging ourselves as better from what we feel.
We all have differing strengths and weaknesses.
The Lord would probably appreciate us helping each other conquer these weaknesses instead of judging, imposing and convicting on our personal judgements.

I know it's very easy to say, but quite difficult to put in action.
I could not sit in the same room as a known paedophile or murderer and I would probably shoot or attack a burglar in my house, even if he wasn't threatening my life !

Even though a Guru's sikh should only attack if the there is an attacker.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji's battle code was not to be attacking opponents who were running back and away from the battlefield.
A little like how a cowboy should not shoot another in the back who is walking or running away !!

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On hiatus

WriterSPNerContributor

So, if we feel that some one is as evil as can be, then we should just let them be in a sense.
This means to make sure that we don't fall into the ego traps and start judging ourselves as better from what we feel.
We all have differing strengths and weaknesses.
The Lord would probably appreciate us helping each other conquer these weaknesses instead of judging, imposing and convicting on our personal judgements.

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Do you think we should have no system of human justice?

Should criminals not be punished for their actions? Should rapists be allowed to walk free to rape again, murderers to murder again, paedophiles to destroy young lives again?

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WriterSPNer

Should criminals not be punished for their actions? Should rapists be allowed to walk free to rape again, murderers to murder again, paedophiles to destroy young lives again?

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I knew immediately that this question would come up next!

I mentioned how difficult it is in reality.
We act too easily in methods that we deem justified in the interests of the majority.

I know how hard it can be because if I were a judge, I would be the least lenient and would have very high numbers of death penalties!!

A good judge looks at the bigger picture.

A good judge sees the problems and shortcomings of the convict as well as the crime in question.
He tries to make a decision that would address every ones interests.
A good judge looks at the protection and welfare of the rest of society. He determines the risk factors if the convict were to be free in public again and the chances that the crime may be repeated.

A good judge determines what benefits outweigh the risk factors to society. Quite often this means locking up the convict would be in the best interests of the public.

A good judge is there to 1st-PROTECT and not to punish.

There are some very good judges thankfully !!
There are also a few that hand out sentences like candy and are on personal power trips!

Any job that involves serving and maintaining society requires not just qualifications, but a very decent and compassionate being as well.

Which is why I know I would fail as a judge, because I would let personal judgements and feelings get in the way!

I don't think gurbani endorses heavy punishment of evil and criminals.
It doesn't give you ideas of how punishment should be given and it doesn't encourage authority for punishment either.
Gurbani tries to make you see ALL mankind as ONE.

However, PROTECTION is a huge factor in sikhi and this should be addressed foremost.
-Just as a good judge looks to protect the society and public as a primary factor.

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On hiatus

WriterSPNerContributor

When you were starting the thread, did you intend the title to ask what should be the justice served out by society? Or did you mean to ask what is the spiritual fate of nasty people, psychopaths?

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Admin ji

At first I wanted to know about the spiritual fate of nasty people, and then I started thinking; if there is no spiritual justice, doesn't that make justice in this world even more important? That's where my thought process went.

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On hiatus

WriterSPNerContributor

I mentioned how difficult it is in reality.
We act too easily in methods that we deem justified in the interests of the majority.

I know how hard it can be because if I were a judge, I would be the least lenient and would have very high numbers of death penalties!!

A good judge looks at the bigger picture.

A good judge sees the problems and shortcomings of the convict as well as the crime in question.
He tries to make a decision that would address every ones interests.
A good judge looks at the protection and welfare of the rest of society. He determines the risk factors if the convict were to be free in public again and the chances that the crime may be repeated.

A good judge determines what benefits outweigh the risk factors to society. Quite often this means locking up the convict would be in the best interests of the public.

A good judge is there to 1st-PROTECT and not to punish.

There are some very good judges thankfully !!
There are also a few that hand out sentences like candy and are on personal power trips!

Any job that involves serving and maintaining society requires not just qualifications, but a very decent and compassionate being as well.

Which is why I know I would fail as a judge, because I would let personal judgements and feelings get in the way!

I don't think gurbani endorses heavy punishment of evil and criminals.
It doesn't give you ideas of how punishment should be given and it doesn't encourage authority for punishment either.
Gurbani tries to make you see ALL mankind as ONE.

However, PROTECTION is a huge factor in sikhi and this should be addressed foremost.
-Just as a good judge looks to protect the society and public as a primary factor.

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Thank you Lucky ji for a very comprehensive response. kudihug

This is a bit of a basic question, but if we were to put protection and punishment at either end of a piece of string, would you find justice in the middle?

What is justice? Is there 'spiritual justice'? Does Sikhi say anything about justice? Often people talk about justice for 1984 - what do they really mean?

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit in this thread. My mind is a bowl of spaghetti.

Edit: it occurs to me I might be considering this entire matter from the POV of a deeply westernised psyche.

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WriterSPNer

This is a bit of a basic question, but if we were to put protection and punishment at either end of a piece of string, would you find justice in the middle?

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I would say that 'protection' would be more dominant.
I'm not any expert in law and ethics, but I do think that this is how a good judge actually thinks.
He would lock up in order to protect the public.
If locking up was not in the interests of protection for anyone, and was solely for punishment, then I think this is where the judge focuses more on rehabilitation to ensure that the problems of the offender are addressed and fixed.

:grinningsingh:This is what I think from what I know, But it could be complete and utter rubbish in terms of the country's ethics!!!:grinningsingh:
So, I hope some lawyer doesn't get influenced by this and it lands him in trouble without a job !!
(that's assuming lawyers aren't bent!!:grinningkaur

I mean, I'm the person who many years ago attacked the car thief that was trying to break into my car with a solid wooden hockey stick !!
I ended up getting arrested !
But, i'm sure that I would still do it again if the episode ever got repeated!
In this sense, I failed, as I never learned from getting in trouble previously!

Like I said, I think as sikhs our primary focus would be more on the 'protection' from what I gather.

It's not really an easy area to cover as experts work on this with law and order day and night and passing new bills all the time.
Perhaps it's because the public is also more aware of more exposed cases of unfair and wrongful justice nowadays!

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SPNer

If we reject the karma-caste-reincarnation trilogy, reject heaven/hell and believe that when we die our body turns to dust and our soul-energy is reabsorbed to wherever it came from (and this is a mechanism of natural law, there is no reward / bliss / merging or personal identity left behind), then what happens to nasty, evil people in the end?

To my mind, their body will turn to ash and their soul-energy will be reabsorbed like the rest of us, and technically we could be as nasty as we want and there are no cosmic consequences.

We would lose the chance to be immersed in Naam in our one precious human life, but if that has no impact on any kind of after-life then it's just a feeling of peace which makes life easier here and now but has no other function.

If an evil criminal has managed to avoid justice in this life, then it's his luck apparently. His evil actions are unable to catch up with him and he goes free without consequences. If he's a psychopath he probably lacks a regular conscience like the rest of us and probably doesn't even feel bad about what he did, so it's not like his conscience would punish him either.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

A very good question.Unfortunately the fact is the nature always benefitted the voilent and aggressive.

Lets first look into animal world.Sexual dimorphism occurred in animal species and violent and aggressive gender got the benefit of size. In mammals where male is more violent the bigger size he got.In species like spotted Hyena the females are aggressive than males , and hence they are larger than them.among human we see size benefit to men so definately at some point aggressive , violent bigger men got all the females.

Now if we come to human we will see the same trend.The religions like Parsi or Jain which were peaceful were never able to spread themselves .Infact Parsi's lost their land and became minorities everywhere.On the other hand the violent and aggressive Islam spread itself throughout the world .Again nature favoured the violent and aggressive

Almost all Mnc's of world are involved in corruption and malpractices and yet they get bigger and bigger.I have a question to everybody. If you are a Boss in MNC and You have option to move to a third world country for production which will reduce production cost 50% .All you have to do is to bribe the politicians of that country so they can allow your production activity.What will you do when you know that your rival has already taken the decision to move in that country.The fact is almost everybody have to take decision to bribe politicians of that country in order to survive in business world.

I don't agree with that evil people die in sufferring .If we leave out criminals and look at corrupt people we may find that many die quite peacefully .many corrupt are adored by their families for bringing money and satisfying desires of family members. On the other hand some of honest people die quite lonely and see that even their family member don't respect them as they believe that his honesty is reason for their suffering and the person could had bring much more money and satisfied the desires of their if he/she could had adopted what others were doing.

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Moderator

WriterSPNerContributor

Firstly, I do not think the incentive of divine justice is reason enough to live a good life. If one has lived a good life purely out of fear or what they could be missing in an afterlife, then that is a very poor reason indeed.

I am aware some religions not only accept this facet, but laud it, if you do this, you get heaven, if you do this, you get hell, I think it only serves to remind humankind that they can never break free from this reward/punishment way of living.

Sikhism, being a fresh way of looking at things rejects this. The only reason to do good, is to pump more goodness into Creation, that this goodness affects Creation, shapes Creation.

As Sikhs we are in a minority, in that we do good for no other reason other than it is our responsibility to assist in the shaping of Creation, so that future generations live in a world of good, where good is accepted and encouraged.

It is interesting to note that all the bad that occurs in humanity, is mirrored in the animal kingdom, rape, theft, murder, incest, etc etc, yet no thought of divine justice exists for animals, they just get on with it and watch Creation grow.

Our very lives are here to shape Creation by the impression we leave when we are dead. I used to think of our nutrients and minerals seeping into the ground after our death, merging with nature, but I now firmly believe it is our actions, what we say, what we think that is merging with nature, on a daily basis.

Every bad thought, every curse, every episode of anger, of being selfish, serves only to lower the common denominator of Creation,

If we accept that bribery, murder of female babies, corruption, marriage within caste, exploitation of people, are acceptable and ok , they will become common place, and acceptable, certainly justifiable, and that is exactly what has happened.

Power to those that stand up for the truth, it is the truth that will ultimately save us, not as inviduals, but as Creation.

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Sawa lakh se EK larraoan

MentorWriterSPNerContributor

The Good merge with the Almighty..and so do the Bad...
The FRESH rivers merge into the Ocean..so the SEWAGE pipes...does the Ocean discriminate ?? reject the sewage ??
The OCEAN has the power to absorb....same as HE has it...
and then WATER EVAPORATES form the same Ocean...and that RAIN and snow is ALWAYS FRESH....it never rains sewage !!Nature has its Laws..RECYCLE..not reincarnation...

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MentorWriterSPNerContributor

If we reject the karma-caste-reincarnation trilogy, reject heaven/hell and believe that when we die our body turns to dust and our soul-energy is reabsorbed to wherever it came from (and this is a mechanism of natural law, there is no reward / bliss / merging or personal identity left behind), then what happens to nasty, evil people in the end?

To my mind, their body will turn to ash and their soul-energy will be reabsorbed like the rest of us, and technically we could be as nasty as we want and there are no cosmic consequences.

We would lose the chance to be immersed in Naam in our one precious human life, but if that has no impact on any kind of after-life then it's just a feeling of peace which makes life easier here and now but has no other function.

If an evil criminal has managed to avoid justice in this life, then it's his luck apparently. His evil actions are unable to catch up with him and he goes free without consequences. If he's a psychopath he probably lacks a regular conscience like the rest of us and probably doesn't even feel bad about what he did, so it's not like his conscience would punish him either.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have the inkling that this thread is like a trunk of a tree and will twig out in different directions, which is OK. It reaffirms how we look at the same prism from different angles.

My question to you? Nasty by whose standards? Even the psychopaths must have a tinge of goodness in them despite their ailments.

Fate is a very subjective thing. I am against the death penalty under all/any circumstances because for me, it is not a punishment but a quick way out. Life without parole would be a daily reminder and secondly it costs 60% less than the death penalty. But, more important thing is what happens to the innocent who are sent to the gallows? Who is nasty in that affair of life. Please go through http://www.innocenceproject.org/- "Project Innocence"- which has saved many innocent people destined to die with the help of DNA. Only if they had more funds, many more innocent lives would have been saved. But they are doing their best. Two of the founders of this project defended OJ Simpson which may sound ironic.

Now, let's talk about the slave masters and the slaves. Who were nasty in those two groups? In the latest movie Django Unchained about slavery, one may think differently depending on their viewpoint.We all know that the late Senator Storm Thurman had a daughter with one of his slaves and that is just the beginning.

After the horrific killing at Sandy Hook in New Town, Connecticut, a GOP puppet was on TV claiming that if the slaves had the guns then we would not have any slavery,which is a pathetically laughable and nasty statement laced with ignorance.

Gyani ji is right about the recycling rather than reincarnation and the rain and the snow, but we had problems with the acid rain and brown snow affect in the late 70's before the EPA put its foot down on the pollution driving industry- read Koch Bros.

Our justice system is not perfect either as we all know. Judges are elected rather than selected after rigorous back ground and testing of the applications of laws in a just manner. There was a Superior Court Judge in California who had a peenis pump installed under his desk. He used to do hanky panky with himself while listening to the cases and passing judgements. This is just one case of transgression.

Our goal as Sikhs is to feel good, with its help, to do good and make a difference which will slowly give the light to all the leaves of the tree called this world, just like the Sun does.

If we can make a difference in one person's life who has had hard times, hence nasty; then we have reduced one nasty person and thus, brightened-changed his/her fate.

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Sawa lakh se EK larraoan

MentorWriterSPNerContributor

Sajjan THUGGH was a SERIAL KILLER/MASS MURDERER...and we all know he transformed when he met Guru nanak Ji...does anyone know what his "punishment" was for the countless pilgrims he slaughtered in their sleep to rob them ??..did he die peacefully ??
Did Guru nanak Ji scare the living daylights out of him or punish him in any way ?? did he go to "Hell" first..to pay for his sins..and then to heaven because he met Guru Ji and changed ??
IN REALITY..NO ONE REALLY KNOWS any answers...why waste time in idle speculation..is it any of our business whether the neighbour dies a violent horrible death under aspeeding train (becasue we think hes corrupt..a murderer..etc)..or the other neighbour gets "rewarded"...HOW ?? simply because we think hes HOLY kind etc ??? Should this neighbour die in bed at home with his loving family holding his hands etc ?? How do we decide/Judge who dies in what way ?? and why ?? Methinks we watch too many Hollywood thrillers !! or Bollywood or Lollywood or Tollywood horror flicks and imagine that so and so must die that way and so and so should perish like this movie or that...dont many Sikhs wish that Jehangir should have had his head smashed in lehs crushed to powder eyes pulled out..BECAUSE HE CAUSED MARTYRDOM OF GURU ARJUN JI ?? Just how many consider the DEATH of GURU ARJUN as "died peacefully" ?? did Jehangir die peacefully ?? How many consider the deaths of Guru Teg bahadur ji and Aurengzeb ji as "died peacefully"...???

WITH the entire 1429 aang Huge SGGS..compiled with personal examples form a couple of CENTURIES, Gurus Personal LIVES..we still DAY DREAM ....idle minds devils workshops ?? Have we learnt NOTHING form Guru Arjun Ji ??? Guru Teg bahdur Ji..from the family of GURU GOBIND SINGH JI....the events of DECEMBER 1705 ??? HISTORY means NOTHING ?? What the GURUS went through in plain SIGHT means NOTHING ?? sad.

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Ishna Ji, I believe the fate of All people, nastiested of the nasty, foolheartedly of the foolhearts, is to Encounter one another. There is no safety. We were sent here to take Responsibility for one another. So when Life hits any of us, we can see & say, that person's Me. (You may not be able to Help them, heck u may Not have the capacity to even interpret, understand the situation. but an acknowledgement must be made that all people, @ the core, knowingly or unknowingly are made of the same stuff, have the same capacity to go astray... or to come together. The way I see it, if we were nothing more than spirit, we wouldn't have these interaction w/ one another. So if we're here, it's significant, right? We're supposed to feel fear, & scared on occasion, right? We're supposed to be uncertain, & then gain from the thrill of surpassing our fears on occasion? The little we can? this also extends to dealing with others I think (& by my above argument, how we deal w/ ourselves), that there is Imperfection, sometimes on a grave level & we must come to terms w/ it, leave it or even see it as beauty. not the henious crime itself or the person, but Just that that is the diversity that God sent us to. We have no option **Please understand that Im just sharing. I am by no means bestorwing or pushing anything , it's just how I share my truth, Im friiking Weird. :crazy:

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WriterSPNer

That's a nice post with a positive approach that goes well with sikhi !

Seeing your sentence below, I was quite impressed !!

We were sent here to take Responsibility for one another.

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I think that is very important, but we let our emotions get in the way to stop us proceeding in this manner.
If we could just help everyone that we came across who seems to have faults and deficiences, then the world would be a better place.

This includes the nasty people who have inflicted pain and hurt to fellow beings.
If we could try and 'amend' their ways like Guru Nanak ji did, then we have accomplished and served mankind accordingly.

However, we know very well that punishment and further infliction of pain to the nasty offenders, very rarely results in them amending and fixing their tangled ways.

We should learn and attempt to let other's learn about their very own weaknesses.
Instead, we find it easier to 'teach' them lessons in these kinds of cases and neither we or the nasty offenders end up learning anything at all !

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Ishna Ji,
I think the fate of the worst of worst crimes is Forgiveness. b/c there's no Guarantee revenge will cover it. & what about situations where that doesn't even allow? Are you going to let that One person, situation Ruin your life? Hellll no. You walk away from that M**tf**kr Strong as hell & let him/her, it know that it ain't over. Not the beef between you & them, but Life itself. Especially for You, even if you walk around w/ a little Limp for a while & things aint so strong. You may be down on ur luck, if it's really strained, you may do some things you're not proud of. That lion/ess paw, you might be inclined to lick it cuz that's All u can do. Lol. But eventually you get your voice, fierceness, bravado back & things aint so easy, but they're not really hard either. In other words you Let it go, and live happily ever after.

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Originally Posted by Luckysingh
That's a nice post with a positive approach that goes well with sikhi !

Seeing your sentence below, I was quite impressed !!

I think that is very important, but we let our emotions get in the way to stop us proceeding in this manner.
If we could just help everyone that we came across who seems to have faults and deficiences, then the world would be a better place.

This includes the nasty people who have inflicted pain and hurt to fellow beings.
If we could try and 'amend' their ways like Guru Nanak ji did, then we have accomplished and served mankind accordingly.

However, we know very well that punishment and further infliction of pain to the nasty offenders, very rarely results in them amending and fixing their tangled ways.

We should learn and attempt to let other's learn about their very own weaknesses.
Instead, we find it easier to 'teach' them lessons in these kinds of cases and neither we or the nasty offenders end up learning anything at all !

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The Sikhs are a young religion and a vibrant people. History bears ample testimony of both but today I messily delve into the shambles we are in. During this generation we seem to be changing. It is as if the DNA of dynamic energy and rising to the...

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