I Worship Idols

I will burn in Hell forever. I will be punished forever. I am the worst creature on planet. Even if I die, no one must wish that God have mercy on me.

No, I did not kill any child. I did not rape anyone. I did not bomb, shoot, loot or cheat anybody. In fact I always followed the law. I never committed a crime of hate, passion or greed. I took care that no one is harmed by me. I paid my taxes. I did my job honestly. Sometimes in name of God, sometimes in name of my ancestors, I made charity to poor and orphans. When Taliban shot 133 children in Pakistan, I mourned as if I lost my own family.

My deadly crime

But all this does not make me a nice person. My crime is far worse than anything else you can . That is why, God will still forgive a rapist or murderer but will never forgive me.

Do you know what my heinous crime is? It is IDOL WORSHIP.

My crime is that I see God in idols. My crime is that I go to temples. My crime is that I worship Rama, Krishna, Hanuman, Shiva, Durga, Lakshmi. My crime is that I sing Bhajans.

No I am not joking. In eyes of a very dominant chunk of world population, my crime is the worst crime of humanity. They believe that I am the most disgusting creature on earth.

Hate in name of religion

I am called a Kafir which is an abuse that means ‘a disgusting person who commits most wicked crime’.

They say that their Holy Book tells that idols-worshipper is worst of creatures.

Now I don’t care what their Holy Book actually says. I don’t even know the language of their Holy Book. I assume that any religion teaches only peace and tolerance. And hence their religion must also be no exception.

But what worries me is that the entire community leadership is unanimous on this hatred. They may differ on how to deal with a wretched person like me on earth. But the moment I die, all agree that I must not be called “Marhoom” – one who gets mercy of God.

They will not participate in my festivals. They will not pray for me when I die. They will always consider me most disgusting.

Come what may happen, whatever be my good deeds, no one will say that I can also be blessed with Paradise by God. Even if I die saving life of an idol-hater, even if I selflessly dedicate my life to humanity, I will still burn in fire of Hell.

Terror continues

And that is why since beginning of Caliphate in Arab, there have been attacks on my country by invaders. In name of spreading religion, they plundered me without provocation. Sometimes in form of Muhammad Bin Qasim, sometimes as Ghori, Ghazni, Akbar, Aurangzeb, Babur, partition of India – they shamelessly invaded my home, killed my family, raped women and kidnapped many more to be sold as slaves in Arab.

And this continues till today in form of not just ISIS, Al Qaeda, Taliban but through hatred in hearts of millions of Muslims of world who are brainwashed by their leaders.

Translations breed terror

Read any available translation of Quran – idol-worshippers are depicted as worse than worst criminals and believers are ordered to hate them. I have read all major translations in English, Urdu and Hindi and that explains to large extent the emergence of Islamic terrorism. One liberal translation of Quran that did not interpret hatred for idol-worshippers was criticized as anti-islamic by all major religious leaders and hence flopped.

Thus, what we see is that any Muslim who takes existing translations of Quran seriously becomes a hater of Hindus. And this breeds terrorism.

Now I fail to understand, why should my personal faith be a reason to love or hate me! Neither me nor any Muslim of the world has ever seen God himself. Religion is based on assumptions which can be verified by none other than their founders. Is it, hence not perversion, to hate someone on basis of blind assumptions?

Who is not idol-worshipper?

I don’t want to either defend idol worship or condemn their critics. But it is an undeniable truth that irrespective of whatever label you give, everyone is worshipping idols.

– Majority of non-Arabic Muslims have no understanding of Arabic, but they still keep Arabic names, have Arabic slogans to remember God, and even put gothic pictures of their religious slogans. This is idol-worship.

– They try to mimic even clothing and grooming habits of Prophet despite knowing that he lived in a completely different era. The typical beard style without mustache that Muslims keep is because they believe this is how Prophet used to keep himself. If idol worship is a sin, Muslims are greatest idol worshippers.

Hindus don’t worship idols

As for Hindus are concerned, they do not worship idols. They worship God through idols. Idol is just a medium for them. That is why after completion of festive period, they throw away the same idols without any emotional attachment. Only those complete devoid of intellect would attempt to hate Hindus as idol-worshippers.

Why hate for idol-worship?

But the real point is even deeper. Even if a Hindu, or a Muslim, or any other person worships idols, who is anybody to hate him for that? You may differ, but why hate? And why encourage others to hate? Only a cult of completely mentally bankrupt people would choose this path.

Why idol-worship is sin?

How can anyone in world prove that idol-worship is sin? What is wrong with idol-worship? If I worship idols, if I keep making new and new idols and worship them in new and new ways, what is anybody’s problem? Does it cause loose motion in someone? Does it kill someone? Does it rob anyone’s property? Does it rape someone?

Don’t give me this crap that idol-worship is insult of God because God is only One.

First, if God has real problem with my idol-worship, he would come directly and deal with me directly. Its between me and Him. Is he on sick-leave to delegate that to an incompetent person like you?

Second, how do you know God is One or Many or Here or beyond Seven Skies? Did you meet Him? Can you give some evidence? If not, then what right you have to enforce your unverifiable notions on me? You are free to follow whatever you feel like. But how dare you insult me for my benign personal beliefs?

Third, Sensible people respect sentiments and do not hate form of expression. What more, true Muslims like APJ Abdul Kalam openly claim that they read Gita, go to temples for spiritual awakening, sing Bhajans and love Ram-Krishna. Real Islam must be what the most intelligent practice and believe in, and not the hatred that a bunch of dogmatic idiots spit out.

Root of all terrorism

Root of all terrorism is not Islam or Christianity or Hinduism or Idol-Worship. Root of all terrorism is the lunatic tendency to impose one’s personal notions on others by force or deceit.

I will not comment on original texts of any religion. Because I neither know Hebrew of Christians or Quranic Arabic of Islam. But it is a fact that available translations of texts of all major religions have a lot of stuff that is superstitious and inhuman.

But intelligent societies don’t take these translations by humans so literally. They use their own brains and encourage free choice of personal belief. These are called civilized societies.

The savage societies take these translations literally and force their ideas on others through threat. They continue to remain dumb because use of brain is considered a crime.

Warning to all haters of idol-worshippers

We have had enough of nonsense since a millennium. We continued to blame our misfortune – the rapes and killings and hatred – on miscellaneous petty factors. We continued to hope that with time and experience, you would mature. We ignored your hatred in name of religion.

But this fire of madness continues to grow. Each day a new news comes of killing, shooting, raping, beheading, bomb blast, siege, carnage and threat. It must be matched with fire. If Fire of Barbarism emerges, Agniveer (Fire of Courage) will also rise to destroy the barbarism.

We warn all haters of idol-worshippers to mend their ways. Follow whatever path you may choose. We will respect your right to choose your path. You have full rights to differ from us and even express your difference openly.

But stop this business of hatred. Stop killing, raping, abusing idol-worship and idol-worshippers.

We will not tolerate anymore.

It doesn’t matter if I am a Hindu, Muslim, Christian or Atheist. But if you spit out even slightest hatred against idol-worship, consider me the greatest idol-worshipper who would fight your fire with such a fire that would make you extinct.

Learn to give respect and get respect. Dare you discriminate against me or anyone else on basis of personal faith. In our dictionary, such haters are called demons. And we, the progeny of brave idol-worshippers like Shivaji and Maharana Pratap know how to deal with demons.

Agniveer is greatest champion of idol-worship till the mindset that says “Idols-worshippers are worst of creatures” is made extinct.

Jai Shri Ram

(Victory of Lord Rama who destroyed the demon Ravan)

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Disclaimer: We believe in "Vasudhaiv Kutumbakam" (entire humanity is my own family). "Love all, hate none" is one of our slogans. Striving for world peace is one of our objectives. For us, entire humanity is one single family without any artificial discrimination on basis of caste, gender, region and religion. By Quran and Hadiths, we do not refer to their original meanings. We only refer to interpretations made by fanatics and terrorists to justify their kill and rape. We highly respect the original Quran, Hadiths and their creators. We also respect Muslim heroes like APJ Abdul Kalam who are our role models. Our fight is against those who misinterpret them and malign Islam by associating it with terrorism. For example, Mughals, ISIS, Al Qaeda, and every other person who justifies sex-slavery, rape of daughter-in-law and other heinous acts. Please read Full Disclaimer.

I am founder of Agniveer. Pursuing Karma Yog.
I am an alumnus of IIT-IIM and hence try to find my humble ways to repay for the most wonderful educational experience that my nation gifted me with. I am also on Quora.

[…] Shame that no “secular” leader from Muslim politics of today dares to say so. And those who believe so – heroes like APJ Abdul Kalam – are boycotted by these fanatics. Read I Worship Idols – Agniveer […]

-Jyotish Vijay Are you out of your Mind. It doesn’t matter whether a woman stays with Husband or not?? ?? What do you mean by such statement. Is this what Vedas teach. This verse is no way scientific as “Sun Ray” which although isn’t present in sanskrit text of this verse is in singular and it has to remain with her husband. You didn’t properly addressed the problem. This verse become unscientific according to Agniveer’s interpretation.

Further, he makes claims which are clear lies.

For example

AGNIVEER: Rig Veda 1.119.10 “With the help of bipolar forces (Asvins), you should employ telegraphic apparatus made of good conductor of electricity. It is necessary for efficient military operations but should be used with caution.”

Response : This is Clear Deception. Any logical thinker should catch him here. How can he talk about electricity In 6000B.C. He has translated this verse to fit his selfish motives.

Ashvins as bipolar forces Are you serious! There are hymns in vedas about Ashvins. This verse is about warfare actually. Analyse Agniveer’s last line’s of translation MILITARY OPERATION, USED WITH CAUTION. Agniveer has digged his grave by doing this blunder. Now can he show authentic record’s showing electricity was used in 6000B.C in India as the verse suggests.

Plus THIS VERSE IS ABOUT INDRA

Rig veda 1:119:9-10 9 To you in praise of sweetness sang the honey-bee: Ausija calleth you in Soma’s rapturous joy. Ye drew unto yourselves the spirit of Dadhyac, and then the horse’s head uttered his words to you. 10 A horse did ye provide for Pedu, excellent, white, O ye Asvins, conqueror of combatants, Invincible in war by arrows, seeking heaven worthy of fame, like Indra, vanquisher of men.

Go and CHECK RIG VEDA (1:118,1:117,1:116) and this hymn also Rig veda 1:119,it’s name is ASHVINS. Many hymns in vedas have same name.

Go and check corpus word by word through any Lexicoln of Sanskrit and se your liar.

in Vedas, the words are used as metaphors( i have made it clear in our precious discussion).now, i dont want to talk about thse verses,because i avent read them, but there are many many verses where we have to sought for metaphors/allegories. i have given a few examples in our previous discussions. for exampl, read through rig veda 1/164/47 and compare it with the verse 51 and 52.the same idea is repeated in atharva veda 4/27/4.the idea encrypted in all these verses is the water cycle. this idea is metaphorically adressed in RV 1/164/47.: ” Dark the descent: the birds are golden-coloured; up to the heaven they fly robed in the waters. Again descend they from the seat of Order, and all the earth is moistened with their fatness.” the “golden brds ” refer to water molecules that absorb sun’s energy, because based on the recurring theme in rig veda, golden is often used to mean something that is lustrous,and for tha reason sun is refeed to as golden and so is indra who destroys darkness.the “brids” here refer to water molecules that rise up to heaven since th “golden birds are clothed in WATERS”.further, the verse says, “they (refering to the golden birds that went up)come down again and earth is moistened”,had the birds were to be taken literally,how can they moisten the earth? this is possible when we cnsider the “golden birds” as an allegory of water molecules that absorbe nergy from sun’s rays.urther more, the verse itself starts by saying “dark is the descend”,again refering to the darkness of the heavens whe it rains.thus,the context is that of rains prospering the earth and keeping the context i mind,the verse becomes deciphered as an allegorical picture of depicting water cycle. furhermore, the verse 51 and 52 directly refer to water cycle.also to be noted is atharvana veda 4/27/4. from these verses ,we have seen how Vedas use metaphors.in the verses about ashvins,they can be metaphors to some concepts,i am not sure about it.

@Jazib “It doesn’t matter whether a woman stays with Husband or not……………This verse is no way scientific as “Sun Ray” which although isn’t present in sanskrit text of this verse is in singular and it has to remain with her husband”

This shows you are no where near to understanding what i am talking. Whether sunlight is singular or plural, whether sunlight (the wife) stays with the husband (moon) or do not stay with the husband……the verse could be interpreted as follows:

soma (moon) desired a bride, savita (ie the sun) offered surya to moon and asvini’s were the welcomers

With this being the literal meaning I don’t consider it wrong to say that this might be allegory to sun being the provider of light to the moon…..Now whether sunlight stays with the moon or not do not affaect an allegory of this nature…..it also does not affect allegories if surya is referred to as singular or plural…..if its singular it concerns surya (the person, a reference to sunlight maybe) and if its plural, it must be because the verse is concerning sunlight and lastly it could be singular even if its referring to sunlight (taking sunlight as one entity)

What i say is that its foolish to get into thesesilly nuances….because being allegories the same verse can switchfrom singular to plural (when u look at the allegorical meaning)

Now as for Rig Veda 1.119.10 You should really have quoted the sanskrit verse…..actually agniveer should have done it…..so instead of posting your interpretation you should be questioning agnveer directly

You may ask…..why don’t I question agniveer directly? Ans: Well I may…and I have questioned himpreviously regardng other verses….i may still do so withthis one……but here u r the one withthe issue, so i think u (Jazib) should take the pain Unlike Muslims my being a Hindu (an agnostic one) does not depend upon my sacred text….rather by the underlying ideologies

Now what stupidity is this? If the aboe verse is just an allegory to moon having reflected light……then whether the wife stays with the husband or do not stay with the husband….these doesn’t alter the allegory

-Saroj Now this is a straw man’s attack. I didn’t said that Hinduism would vanish in general but if it would had been in place of Islam. Neither did I neglected your last sentence. My point was many Hindus are leaving Hinduism, a number much bigger than your Converts.

Now neither would I say that they left after learning vedas nor would I say that they didn’t knew it and saw some points which Hinduism actually opposes and left . I just told the number is bigger than the Converts.

Do you think I don’t know any of Hindu converts. Mahendra Arya pal is one which we know But again I said the number of people leaving is much bigger.

Then you said that Hinduism too can have a rank. Well it already does have, it’s in the top religion’s of world but that wasn’t related to topic, we were taking about some other thing.

The thing’s I said like Arya samaj says this is Wright and other’s claim otherwise wasn’t addressed sensibly.

You said it’s their interpretation. Well they say it’s your interpretation. What then?

They also support their claims by Quoting mantras.

They say vedas is at rank 1 You guys say bhagwat Gita. Again they Quote evidences for it. This is a big issue here because you seem to be struggling with each other on basic things.

Now by saying they are wrong is not an answer. You have to prove it.

Even when we dwell in Bhagwat Gita the Character like shri Krishna is not even mentioned in vedas. I couldn’t understand the reason or SHRI Ram is not there. however Ganpati, Shiva and other’s are.

(!)my point was that even if it was in the place of islam that faced critisicm,it would still emerge if its followers cared to spread dharma and if people cared to sturdy hinduism with an open mind.there is no srwman argument here.those hindus who leave hinduism doesnt understnad the depth of their religion.

when i said hinduism to can have a rank,what i meant was if hindus leaarned their dharma nicely and cared to spread it,then they too can have a rank like peace tv and God tv. it is a direct reference/response to your comment o peace tv being no.1 and God tv next in rank.thus,your argument it has nthing to do with the topic is not correct, if youhad read the context of my statement.

mahendra arya pal is not the only one,i have given a few people who took hinduism by learning it.

now i am not against arya samaj or any other denomination, but my point is that Bhagavad Githa is regarded as the essence of upanishads and upanshds as the essence of Vedas(for which it is called vedantha,where Vedas end.)

its true hat characters like krishna is not mentioned directly in Vedas, but in bhagavad githa, tradionally, krishna repesents the supreme paramathma, or a personification of paramathma(the supreme being). not that a separate entity called krishna is invoked, but krishna is the personofication of brahman/supreme consciousness.krishna is identified as paramathma when he says, i am in the heartof all living entities a paramathma”.this paramathma is the base from where brahman is manifested,brahman is a projection,rather a manifestation of paramathma which is recognised here as krishna. inother books such as ishvara itha, shivw is the personofication of paramathma and in devi githa, dvi is the personification of paramathma.paramathma is beyond all forms and encompasses all forms at the same time. in the Githa, paramathma is represented/personified by a single form that is manifested before us.

as for quotations for Bhagavad Githa, refer to githa mahatmyya and githa dhyana.githa dhyana verse 4: “All the Upanishads are the cows, the milker is Krsna the cowherd, Partha is the calf, those of pure intellect are the enjoyers and the supreme nectar, Gita, is the milk.” this is one reference that i cn give.but please remember that bhagavad githa is also an allegory.krishna in the bhagavad githa is a personification,or a representation of the supreme that the Vedas and upanishads talk of as paramathma(i hv written that above). when you interpret the githa, understand what it says in this light.krishna as the representation of the supreme being/supreme consciousness (and not a separate deity,but the all encompassing supreme being refered to in upanishads). in this way,the douts regarding upanishads/bhagavad githa can be clarified.

plaes read my post fully as to see what krishna represents here.the upanshads are said to be the end of Vedas(vedantha) and upanishds talk of brahman/paramathma as the supreme being, or the ONE REALITY.brahman and paramathma are two different aspects of the same reality.as paramathma, he pervades all and is present in the hearts of all. as brahman, he is the one transcendental to all and is the base of all existence. in the bhagavad githa,krishna represents the same paramathma in upanishads, and in the mode of this personofication krishna summarises the upanishads and dharma to arjuna,who represents the “student” in the upanishads.uanishads are discourses between teacher and student where student questions the teacher.here, in bhagavad githa, paramathma, manifested as krshna, summarises the dharma to arjuna who symbolises the jivathma(the individual soul seeking knowledge-the student).one has to understand this allegory in the setting of bhagavad githa.

-Saroj What’s all this stuff You have Quoted thing’s like A judge in Indonesia converted to Hinduism, a writer namely this converted to Hinduism. What’s all this, Every religion has converts. These are a few People when I said People convert to Islam that is in Lakhs. We don’t even know exactly the number because everyday people embrace Islam. Our scholars AR preaching world wide.

Agniveer has a good news

Peace TV Chinese has started (Mandrain) Having Chinese Muslim scholars whose number is more than total number of scholars in Arya Samaj. Go and check the net

Zakir Naik travelled to Japan from 1-6 November 2015 And South Korea 8-15 November 2015 recently and again many people converted Islam. There are 1000s of Muslim group’s bigger than Agniveer’s worldwide.

2. Peace TV is number 1 most watched religious channel in world. God TV of Christians and Jehovah witness is after that.

i hope you didnt read my full post. my point is crystallised in my last statement: :so, destpi many many criticisms aimed at hindu dharma as being polytheistic,evil devil worshipping and caste discrimnatory,those who have cared to understand the heart of Vedas have accepted hinduism with its heart. thus your very blunt statement “a religion like hinduism would have dissappeared in such conditions ” falls flat. what you have given is your presumptions, or your wishful thinking that you project as a fact,but it is not so true.for those who are willing to learn hinduism,they eventually take p the path of this dharma.few above examples illustrates it. hinduism still has a future.” i admitted the fact that islam has many many converts.no problem,their understandng lead to their acceptance of islam.but that dosent mean “hinduism would vanish” as you suggested. its not just the judge of indonesia, but manywho learned hinduism who accepted it.i have shown you some from a sientific background who took dharma.

“peace tv is rank one and God tv next”.so what? i told you another statement.hindus need to understand,or at least take an initiative to learn dharma, and then,by spreading the meaning of dharma, hinduism too can have a rank.the best examples are those of vedantha society by swami chinmayananda,who did preach vedic dharma.but now, much scholars do not exist. arya samaj has given interpretation to Vedas,but bhagavad githa is considered the essence of the Vedas.in hinduism, each sect represents the truth,or brahman in a specific form.this makes hinduism more accomodative rather that a strict one manner form,which if not followed takes to hellfire.

@jazib bhat and others who think hinduism has no place in this world, lets hear a proffessor of hindu dharma. Klaus L. Klostermaier, former director of Oxford Centre of Hindu Studies, said : “ Hinduism has proven much more open than any other religion to new ideas, scientific thought, and social experimentation” & “ It would not be surprising to find Hinduism the dominant religion of the twenty-first century.”

-Jyotish Vijay That’s totally a wrong answer. God can’t give a wrong Parable. Now many Hindus have told me that it’s you who are taking it that way but the biggest Problems here is clearly evident if it’s scientific i.e Singular ray have to be interpreted as multiple. And Wife doesn’t remain with Husband, these are basic part’s that will come to one’s mind. Sorry to say it can’t mean what Agniveer is showing it to be.

-Hindu Just because Hindus are rejecting Practices of Hinduism and mostly Hinduism itself doesn’t make Hinduism superior.

And what do you mean by your calls aren’t answered. It’s your calls man who may not be getting answered.

Islam is most targetted religion. Christianity attacks it Answering Islam is the biggest Anti Islamic site in world. Arya Samaj of Hinduism, I mean every scholar from them ha written a book against Islam. I think it’s important for them to cruticize Islam. Satyart Prakash chapter 14 by there head is also dedicated to us. Joke is he in some parts of Qur’an proved himself to be a hypocrite. It will not be discussed here.

Likewise Jews and other’s Atheists even still Muslim’s are increasing. We are at number1 in number of converts even after so much of criticism. A religion like Hinduism would have disappeared in such conditions. Those who know Islam have accepted it.

Your prayers are answered since Hinduism is dying. I don’t know what did you meant by that India is a land of miseries.

1 dinar = 217 Indian rupees There are dozens of Muslim countries having economy more than America.

However richness is not preferred as Qur’an talks about it. In what way are your prayers answered. If you say you are respected, sorry to say Hindus are considered as “Pagans” by non ABHRAHAMIC Faits that constitute 60% of world population.

In what way, In the way that ishwars word is called as interpolated or rejected. How can ishwars law be rejected. Actually it can be as he…

i dont hink hinduism is dying.the essence of bhagavad githa has no death.what hinduism needs is a revival of itself and for that a large number of scholars should emerge.their studies are to be independent,not inspired by some zair naiks. the interpretation of vedas should start by analysing,(1) the metaphors and symbolisms in the vedas by crosschecking its own verses,in our previous discussion abiut atharva veda 6/77, i have given a detailed explanation of metaphorisms nd symbolisms and in our email discussions,i have showed you hw a literal inerpretation by omitting the symbolic meanngs are wrong way of understanding it. (2) sanskrit words that have multiple meanings in multiple contexts and putting the right meaning in the right context. each sanskrit word has is own root meaning,for example brahmana means ” a person who is eligible to know brahman”. each hymn in Vedas has a spiritual and scientific sigificance. also to be noted is the fact that in hinduism, symbolism is at its heart. if you go to the west,there are many many practicing hindus from american/european background. for example, we have iskcon,but it is a narrow stream of hinduism. check for victoria lekshmi hamah,from ghana, and ram dass(born richard alpert) who is a hanuman devotee is a psychology proffessor at harvard university.another person who embraced hinduism is John Dobson,(former atheist) is a follower of Vedantha philosophy and by proffession, a telescope designer and astronomer. watch stephen knapp’s video “why i became a hindu” who chose hindu dharma after a spiritual quest. hassan palakode,a writer on islam is a convert to hinduism. another author who is a convert to hinduism is anwer sheilh(but i doubt the authenticity of this info).Ifa Sudewi, a judge in indonesia is also a convert to hinduism. now all these embracals of hindu dharma is not by force or preaching,but by their own understandong of hinduism.hinduism still has a future.

in fact one of the earliest converts to hinduism is heliodorus, a greek ambassedor to india,who chose to become a vaishnavite saint.he installed the “heliodorus column”, pillar dedicated to Lord Vishnu in Vidhisha,near Besnagar in India.it was erected in 113 BCE. The pillar enshrines the message: “This Garuda-standard of Vāsudeva, the God of Gods was erected here by the devotee Heliodoros, the son of Dion, a man of Taxila, sent by the Great Yona King Antialkidas, as ambassador to King Kasiputra Bhagabhadra, the Savior son of the princess from Varanasi, in the fourteenth year of his reign.”

ACCORDING TO SCHOLARS LIKE A L BASHAM,HE IS NOT THE ONLY CONVERT TO HINDUISM. Hopkins, chairman of the department of religious studies at Franklin and Marshall College, has said, “Heliodorus was presumably not the earliest Greek who was converted to Vaishnava devotional practices although he might have been the one to erect a column that is still extant. Certainly there were numerous others including the king who sent him as an ambassador.” for further information on this topic.please refer to the article “hinduism predates christianity:archeological proof” in stephen knapp’s website(who,by the way is also a convert to hinduism).

we have others who converted to other sects within hinduism, like French historian,musicologist,indologist and intellectual Agehananda Bharati (born Leopold Fischer) who took up shaivism. varous sects within hinduism essentially contains the same philosophy ut is expressed in different ways with varying symbolisms and metaphors,what really matters is the essential philosophy. and the story goes… so, hinduism is not dying:hindus now need to educate themselves about their own culture and religion.but they should also learn tolerance,practice their faith without affecting others.many more are there for…

now, i know there are many converts to islam too,but my point here is to clarify that hnduism is not dying.it muight be reducing in strenght within india because of hindus being gullible to foreign ad hoc interpetations , but amongst those who seriously study hnduism,they have a deep passion for it and falls in love with it. jeffery guilano ,an american biographer, became a hindu after learning hinduism from Vedic sources and literature,not from a narrowed interpretation like what our friends in IHI has done. another convert to hinduism is J.D.Salinger, an american author who chose hinduism after erning hinduism (Vedantic philosophy) from the books of lahari mahayasa,the guru of paramahamsa yogananda.those wh chose hinduism chose it out of their will ,by living a life of learning the essential hindu dharma and what is contained within it.

thus, those who seriously learn hinduism with a passion, would surely convert to it.those people should have a srong reading of hindu book starting from the basic Bhagavad Githa. but,since the idea that hinduism is paganism and is evilness is being infiltered into mnds of people ,they dont give a chance to look even learn hinduism.despite a large number of criticisms,there are may who embraced hinduism by earning its philosophy such as “ekam sat viprah bahutha vadanthi”-(truth(god) is one,but expressed in many forms),reincarnation and ultimate merging into brahman,etc. and numerous other concept have made them convert them to hinduism. for example, to know hinduism properly, have a read through Diana L Eck’s Banaras, City of Light, Darsan: Seeing the Divine Image in India, and Encountering God: A Spiritual Journey from Bozeman to Banaras.she is a proffessor of comparative religion studies at harvard univeersity. so, destpi many many criticisms aimed at hindu dharma as being polytheistic,evil devil worshipping and caste discrimnatory,those who have cared to understand the heart of Vedas have accepted hinduism with its heart. thus your very blunt statement “a religion like hinduism would have dissappeared in such conditions ” falls flat. what you have given is your presumptions, or your wishful thinking that you project as a fact,but it is not so true.for those who are willing to learn hinduism,they eventually take p the path of this dharma.few above examples illustrates it. hinduism still has a future.

Please read comments well before responding. Also you do some proof reading of your own comments. lot of mistakes… EG:- you mentioned non Abrahamic in place of Abrahamic. you seems you have issue in understanding what others are posting

“God cannot give wrong parables” There is no parable here……its not an account of an event, that verse is not even a fictious story…..there is no such purana either….You are myopic in that u r looking at the Vedas and judging it by quranic definitions……

If you take the events mentioned here as stories you will end up thinking that there are lot of inconsistancies and inaccuracies…….you sticking on with your singular and plural sunray is laughabble…..there is no such thing within the vedic texts (its not a story to think of like that) Moreover when even I am not very well equipped to interpret the real meanings of Vedic verse….how can u expect yourself to be the judge?

The passage in question can be interpreted to have this literal meaning:

it says soma (moon) desired a bride, savita (ie the sun) offered surya to moon and asvini’s were the welcomers

Here the person offered in marriage is surya or suryaa …..suryaa is considered as the daughter of surya, the sun god; who is also considered as energy ray of surya, the sun god….

Now in mythology sun is treated as sun god….as if itts a person……and sun ray (though plural) is also treated as a character……so any reference to suryaa can be singular or plural….it really doesn’t matter…

Agniveer has taken it as an allegory to the fact that sun gives light to the moon….there is nothing u can say which will prove it to be wrong

I must say …..I don’t follow this interpretation…..and unlike the quran, the vedas do not try to dazzle people with scientific accuracies……so i think its unlikely that a scientific fact was intended here…..but whom am I to say the last word?

BUT YOU……neither are u an expert in Hindu mythology, nor do Tu know vedic sanskrit….and even worse, u don’t have the training to interpret vedas……yet u want to talk authoritatively about scientific inaccuracy of the Vedas?? Thats a lame excercise, u kno

IS what you quoted from Rik samhita or some brahmana part? I don’t understand what you wrote. Better you write the sanskrit verse and clearly explain what you meant. What are you trying to prove here?

If you read bhagavatam there are many modern scientific theories. For example Bhagavatam speaks of time travel and time diation which eienstein has not only proposed but he proved scientifically with equation. Time is slow near blackhole. Time is fast in space than earth. time is slow while travelling at speed near to light. This is experimentally verifiabe. time dilation equation is T0/ root of 1- v square by c square… Bhagavatam exactly say so. in Brahma loka and in heaven time is slow. So a man travelling to Brahma’s world and coming back will still be young but people (of his same age before leaving) in earth will be old.

However we Hindus do not look for science in religious books. Religion is to attain salvation; not to make our materialistic life easy. Even if religion speaks of science, the problem is it is not quantifiable . As i said earlier science is not hypotheisis. It is measurable and is applicable.

Not just muslims but west also criticise Hinduism (absolute monism)as polytheism. Hindu religion , our Gods, Godesses, books ,idol worhip, after life concepts were criticised before. But still 80% of Indians are still Hindus. Why do you know? Majority of Hindus does not beleive in each and every lines written in Vedas, Smritis and puranas and still are Hindus Why??

Because we see result while worshipping in old and traditional temples of north and majority of temples of south. Our prayers are answered. We seek peace ofmind in our scriptures and rituals and we are getting. Also we respect all western scientists and give due respect to science. Because of education today India has progressed and can repel islamist attack.Now Pak wants to improve relations with India. What will India gain???

I am an outsider of islam, but some how I feel that your answers to Allah are not answered. That’s why you constantly need others to say good about islam and celebrate stories of non muslims converting to islam. This is inferioirty complex. May be I am wrong. Sorry for offending your faith. You knows better.

i have given aiza ma’am two very interesting links about science in srimad bhagavatham. i will give it here for you too.http://backtogodhead.in/advanced-astronomy-in-the-srimad-bhagavatam-by-sadaputa-dasa/ the above article shows how hindu scriptures, give the exact disances between earth and sun,earth and other planets(both perigree and apogee,1.e., shortest and longest distances).the author if this one is a mathematician .his nam is Dr. Richard L Thompson.

Thank you brother. I know Bhagavatam has many stunning scientific truth in it. So does Vedas. My point was we Hindus does not say that already all knowledge is in Vedas, smrituis and puranas so no need for other scientific books. We respect science and modern education . It has a valuable place in modern world. We are not like boko harram which literally mean western education is harram.

Even many Vedic teachers like Boudhayana for example, in his smritis mention of mathematics like calculus. But unfortunately for Vedas, we have not much Bhashyams(commentaries). Some people says Adi Sankara came up with advaita as a new theory. This is false. All his bhashyams on upanishads, Brahmasutra bhashyam, vivekachudamani all have Vedic backing. He quote mostly from srutis (Vedas) and some from smritis. However Adi Sankara mostly commented on brahmana and aranyaka parts (end part of Vedas- Veda anth ; hence it is called vedanta). Only “Sayana” has commented on Samhita (initial part of Vedas). Atleast Sayana bhashyam is only available today. I respect Arya samaj as they propogate Vedas and Vedic rituals. However I have problem with their philisophy . Is it based on Sayana bhashya or some books of renowed mimamsis like Manadana mishra or Kumarila Bhatta?..If yes I am agreeing… If it is based on some english translation of Vedas of 19th century or 20th century then i cannot accept it. Ishavasyopanishad has a commentary by zakir naik too …LOL… i can’t follow zakir naik bhashya of holy Vedas

yes it is true that srimad bhagavatham, and so does Vedas contain many information that we are simply stunned at. it is time to revive our own history and write down the essence of Vedas by ourselves. by our own understanding.

i think the start of understanding VEDAS can be from interpretation by aurobindo ghosh(which i refer to) and also explanation to various hymns and certain sanskrit words by pandit Vamadeva Shasthry( David Frawley).but i love the works by scholars in this website,especially Apolloreach whose articles are breathtaking and thought provoking. at present i am compilining a response to certain “scientific erors in Vedas ” by our dear friends in IHI and other website where our momin bros teach us kafirs about our own cultre.a bit of my responses can be seen in the comment section of articcle “why beef eaters are completely wrong” where i was conversing with our dear friend Jazib Ji.i had conversation with him through emails also after which he paused to talk about “errors in Vedas” with me.but at present he is having his exams,so, he might talk to me after that. i shall forward to you my email discussion with Jazib Ji.here is my email id:[email protected]

-Jyotish Look even if we consider Agniveers translation to be true then the verse is still wrong. Although the Chapter which Sister said talks about Suryas bridal, agniveer was trying to make it scientific. Even if verse be taken metaphorically to fit science in it, it still faces blunders.

1 . Verse starts as “Moon decided to marry. Day and Night attended its wedding. And sun gifted his daughter “Sun ray” to Moon.”

Now Moon is deciding to Marry suns daughter ray(singular) which is problematic since billions of Rays in this way Marry moon. Not even Moon but Sun, earth and even us.

2. Since daughter ray is marrying moon, it should remain with it’s Husband Sun Forever and it should not get reflected (in other word’s leaving it’s Husband )

I couldn’t understand how it could mean what Agniveer is trying this passage to look as.

And the problem with verse is that “Day and Night is attending wedding” which is impossible in this context as verse starts WITH MOON DECIDED” After decision or while decision Day and Night is attending wedding??? And what has Night and day to do with reflection of light by moon. Maybe it can be related at a push with night but not with day.

This verse will become if taken in that context. If you are not able to see the Problem. Verse is taking about Moon marrying Sun ray. So did marriage happened??? How much time does it take for marriage – is it then a good comparisons?? And by the way why only 1 daughter is marrying what about other’s.

If you say this is scientific then maybe for you but sorry I couldn’t understand it then.

i have absolutely no idea whats the full meaning(s) of that verse……..anyone who says he has understand all meanings is probably boasting

the meaning i gave is the meaning i could derive from my faint knowledge in sanskrit and previous vedic lessons that i happened to heat (no i did not attend a vedic school)…..that meaning is probably a near accurate literal meaning of that verse:

it says soma (moon) desired a bride, savita (ie the sun) offered surya to moon and asvini’s were the welcomers’

“Moon decided to marry. Day and Night attended its wedding. And sun gifted his daughter “Sun ray” to Moon.”

now the ashvini’s symbolizes sunrise and sunset ….

with all this background info….agniveer’s interpretation is one valid interpretation.

Whether we use ashvini’s in the translation or as “day and night”…..the it still gives out the meaning that sun gifted surya (agniveer has taken ‘surya to be sun’s daughter sunlight) to moon; regardless of who attended the wedding

all your other questions are a waste of time…hence i am giving no answer

its a waste of time…..because vedas do contain lot of allegories and symbolisms; that being present its foolish to analyse the verse and find out ‘whether decision came first and was it then that day and night decided to attend wedding’……..its not a description of a historical event fo us to be particular of the exact meaning….And as stated before the full meaning is probably never going to be apparent

my personal opinion….i do not think that this verse say that moon has ‘reflected light’…i take this verse as the one forming a base for hindu weddings and it describes a fictuous marriage

-Hindu There is no science in Vedas. Your agniveer is deceiving you like other scholars of Hinduism. Let’s see how much Agniveer lies.

SCIENCE IN VEDAS OR STUPIDITY BY THE SCHOLAR

Agniveer: LIGHT OF MOON Rig Veda 10.85.9 “Moon decided to marry. Day and Night attended its wedding. And sun gifted his daughter “Sun ray” to Moon.”

Answer: This Chapter is actually about “SURYAS BRIDAL” which Agniveer has converted into Sun and Moon. Here is the Chapter Rig Veda 10.85.1-10 Surya’s Bridal. 1. TRUTH is the base that bears the earth; by Surya are the heavens sustained. By Law the Adityas stand secure, and Soma holds his place in heaven. 2 By Soma are the Adityas strong, by Soma mighty is the earth. Thus Soma in the midst of all these constellations hath his place. 3 One thinks, when they have brayed the plant, that he hath drunk the Soma’s juice; Of him whom Brahmans truly know as Soma no one ever tastes. 4 Soma, secured by sheltering rules, guarded by hymns in Brhati, Thou standest listening to the stones none tastes of thee who dwells on earth. 5 When they begin to drink thee then, O God, thou swellest out again. Vayu is Soma’s guardian God. The Moon is that which shapes the years. 6 Raibhi was her dear bridal friend, and Narasamsi led her home. Lovely was Surya’s robe: she came to that which Gatha had adorned. 7 Thought was the pillow of her couch, sight was the unguent for her eyes: Her treasury was earth and heaven..when Surya went unto her Lord. 8 Hymns were the cross-bars of the pole, Kurira-metre decked the car: The bridesmen were the Asvin Pair Agni was leader of the train. 9 Soma was he who wooed the maid: the groomsmen were both Asvins, when The Sun-God Savitar bestowed his willing Surya on her Lord. 10 Her spirit was the bridal car; the covering thereof was heaven: Bright were both Steers that drew it when Surya approached her husband’s, home.

If you want to be serious about it…..then reply cherently…..your translation of rigveda mandal 10, sukta 85, verses 1-10 are highly incoherent

“Hymns were the cross-bars of the pole, Kurira-metre decked the car” Really…..are you really serious? Most of your translation makes no sense at all……but this one takes the top sport……what the hell is a “kurira” metre”?

The Vedas are filled with allegories and complicated sentences…….you can’t just read it, start interpreting yourselves and start questioning them?

The correct way to learn vedas is to study under a guru…..and it takes yearsto understand the vedic sanskrit before u start learning vedas…

I admit(unlike Agniveer) that Vedas contain lot of stuff that has to be rejected, thats because even if the vedas are provided by god (thats the belief), the written version includes the hands of mortls and irrlelvant stuff is bound to get in. We call ths as the “smruti content” within a shruti litrature

A person learning vedas are therefore first taught certain lakshanas (criterias) with which he becomes equipped to clearoff the smruti content of any literature…..

Thats why you don’t see learned Hindu’s bothering with the meaning of individual verses like these (without bothering to put in the effort tolearn vedas properly)…..We get the gist out of it…..and we are trained to understand the gist of a text (without actually telling us explicitly which is wheatand whichis chaff)……yet leanred Hindu’s all have remarkably the same notions.

So my view is this discussion on isolated suktas are needles……yet I will partly answer your qn

The verse (10.85.9) is:

Somo va……………….savitA dadAt

Which I feel means:When Suryan desired to find a groom for Surya, soma (means the moon) desired to marry her. The asvinis became their welcomers

Jazib said:- “You told a lie that Allah will give worldly pleasures in heaven and Quoted some Babas blogspot” Ans:- I never said baba site and all. I never follow any baba or spiritual guru. i am a traditional Hindu

Response: See you said that PAGAN “I mean your Allah can offer you only wordly pleasures in heavenn which are pety and often becomes boring??? probably you need to read”

1. You hardly have any understanding of Islam. Aiza said what I said ” COMPANIONS” and not just “COM0ANION”.Just because you couldn’t see it, that’s You’r problem. It’s more than 1

2. You’r assumption God is sitting on his throne should not be taken literally. I think you are not reading what I Quoted. This is not a Throne what you think it to be, it’s everywhere (Qur’an 2:255).ITS NOT A PHYSICAL THRONE. Allah Just refers to his kingship (Qur’an 114:2) when he talks about his throne. GOD IS NOT ON HIS THRONE (where from you get all this)

You’r statement “No wordly pain or happiness will affect him. No karmic after effects will affect him. ” THIS IS WRONG AS WORDLY PAIN AFFECTED HIM WHEN HIS HAD WAS CUT OR ON OTHER WORDS KARMIC AFFECT IS IN PLAY HERE.

Regarding your Question that any one who has multiple wives in this world what will he get. First of all that is not EARTHLY WORLD SO CONDITIONS WILL NOT BE LIKE THIS WORLD. THATS A LOT DIFFERENT.

Then you started Propaganda that Muslim’s killed people. You are a poor debater Lakhs of People are killed in Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq by NON Muslim’s. what about that. Ulfa (Hindu terrorists organisation) killed 1000s Muslim’s in Assam. Out of 600+ district’s in India 100+ is under them.

Many People in My State Kashmir were killed by Hindus (what about that). Many of my sister’s were raped. What about that.

And don’t talk about logic. Hinduism is most illogical. Go and see how many atheists convert to…

the story of ganesha is NOT PHYSICAL .its metaphoric.the elephant with small eyes head is a representation of immense power but laser beam focus,which is an aspect of Brahman,or the supreme.the story is not intended to be taken as an event but a metaphorical veil.the story only is a metaphor.

-Hindu Did you really read what I said. I don’t need anyone’s help. Aiza was just making thing’s clear and it seems that you don’t know Qur’an.

1. You told a lie that Allah will give worldly pleasures in heaven and Quoted some Babas blogspot. Well will now this baba teach us what’s in the Qur’an. No one will be bored in Heaven because that’s not this world. That’s a different thing where only Pleasure will remain and Pain will not,enjoying will be everyone and nothing like bored because it’s what God has created it Like.

2. Nowhere did I agreed God is everywhere. I rather said God’s throne is everywhere and that God is not on his throne but THE DOMINANCE OF GOD IS ON HIS THRONE – In other words everything.

3. I don’t need to know what Sri Ganesha know, I was asking for reason that how did calamity befall him an not who has he shown himself.

Coming back to Aiza. She made a logical point regarding Companions but we should give reference also.

Qur’an 44:54 Even so (it will be). And We shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes.

So when God will Wed them to us, there is no Problem and since that’s infinite life, we will be married to more than 1. Number is not exactly mentioned anyway.

Hoor – This actually refers to Companions with big eyes or dark eyes(can be male or female) but some translators have translated it woman.

But actually it can refer to both as Qur’an itself so many times gives same hint e.g

Qur’an 33:35 “For Muslim MEN and WOMEN , for believing MEN and WOMEN , for devout MEN and WOMEN , for true MEN and WOMEN , for MEN and WOMEN who are patient and constant, for MEN and WOMEN n who humble themselves, for MEN and WOMEN who give in charity, for MEN and WOMEN who fast, for MEN and WOMEN who guard their chastity, and for MEN and WOMEN who engage much in God’s praise, for them has God prepared forgiveness and GREAT REWARD.”

I have good understanding of Hinduism, science and history and I have’nt made any contradictions so far from my earlier statements through out my posts.I do not lie for Hinduism either. I beleieve i have fair understanding of islam’s basic concepts. In fact you are making contradictory staments throughout and I am just asking questions based on your posts. When you make a statement and later retract i may ask a question on the latter statement which you try to showcase as a lie from my end and call me liar.

Sri Ganesha is enlightened God who is always in blissful state and all-knowing para Brahmam conceousness. No wordly pain or happiness will affect him. No karmic after effects will affect him. Adi Sankara performed mother’s last rituals. Some one asked why a sanyasin should do rituals? Adi Sankar told that enlightened detached person need not do karmas. no sin or good affects him even if he do karma. Just to keep his word to mother, he performed rituals

Jazib said:- “You told a lie that Allah will give worldly pleasures in heaven and Quoted some Babas blogspot” Ans:- I never said baba site and all. I never follow any baba or spiritual guru. i am a traditional Hindu

Now contradiction part:-

1. sister Aiza told :- “God being Holy and pure should be somewhere which is pure. ” I assume from this statment that God can be in somewhere pure like heaven. Am i wrong here? 2. Jazib said :- “Nowhere did I agreed God is everywhere. I rather said God’s throne is everywhere and that God is not on his throne but THE DOMINANCE OF GOD IS ON HIS THRONE – In other words everything. ” I assume that we should not say God is present somewhere . What quran say about God sitting in a throne is symbolic and literal meaning should not be taken.

1. Aiza:- “Qur’an tells they will be married their to Companions of equal age. And not Girlfriend’s” – I Assume Aiza says that one woman will be married to one man of equal age. it is one to one relation ship

2. Jazib:- “So when God will Wed them to us, there is no Problem and since that’s infinite life, we will be married to more than 1. Number is not exactly mentioned anyway. ” I assume men will be married to more than one girl. I dont think you will agree if I say a woman in heaven will be married to more than one man. If thats the case, i have a question:- What if husband who have more than one wife prefer one over other and ignore another wife??

3. I saw an islamic site, one scholar mentioned that women who dies will live with her last earthly husband in after life.

I understand that multiple people will have multiple interpretations of religion but in the case of islam, you are not clear on your after life – heaven and hell concepts. But countless muslims have killed millions of non muslims and enslaved women and children thinking that after all these Hindus or non muslims are going to hell and we ultimately will go to heaven no matter what nonsence we do to humanity.

My judgement of muslims are getting reinforced day by day that muslims shamelessly lie about quran and islam. Muslims make some arguments just to justify islam and then make another contradicting statement again to justify islam when counter questioned. Muslims will not apply logic in matters of religion in general and islam in particular.

Some of your messages are cutoff. So i could’nt see your answers on final judgement and after life. I think you are keeping the argument open until sister Aiza will come and help you? ok finally you accepted that Allah is everywhere and not just in jannat. It is symbolic. I am happy about that. I am a traditional hindu and not attached to RSS, arya samaj or any babas-swamis or even i dont read agniveer articles to improve my knowledge on Hinduism. I have gurus in my own family. You also says God will show to people on day of judgement that means that God can be seen? As you agree good or bad will happen to all because we all have sins and good. Gandhiji, Mandela and Hitler all have sins and good. no one is perfect. the more sinful one is; the more ignorant one becomes about his true nature of self. So more crimes he will do out of frustration or desire.

One reference :- “But doing many bad things make him take next birth as a ‘chandala’(low caste). Demons become Gods, Immortals become trees, Goat becomes elephant and vice versa, fox dies to take birth as man, a lady dies to take birth as a fox, the unkindly toturing king dies to take birth as a worm, fly dies to take birth as a cat, and all these are Lord’s games.”

World is becoming bad day by day – Agree. This is kaliyuga also we beleive in cyclic universe. Good times will come. Even bhagavatam hints of a multiverse. Brahma the creator saw many Brahmas worshipping the lotus feet of Lord Krishna, indicates multiverse.

Like big bang a big crunch may happen . This is one theory of end of universe by scientists .Although it has problem with second law of thermodynamics, this is one theory of science. We do not interpret puranas to fit to whatever science says. What is said in puranas is cyclic universe thats all. God is not TV but if he is accessible by one sense (ear) God must be accessible…

God is not TV but if he is accessible by one sense (ear) God must be accessible by eyes too.

Understand Lord Ganesha, you must thoroughly understand our Atman (soul) concept. Per advaita vedanta, only Brahmam (God) exists. So we do not beleive in time, space and universe as existing rather it is perceived because of maya. The supreme soul paramatma is Lord Ganapathi. He is enlightened. He knows the true nature of self which is God. Lord Ganesha does not consider himself as a body with elephant head or connect himself with his mind or intellect. He is aware of his true absolute truth reality Brahmam. He only appears to devotees and show his lilas and unlike we humans do not consider him as a person.

-Hindu You are a real Pagan God will give them girlfriend’s. You seem to be a visitor of Anti-islamic site’s. But still you should atleast bother to see whether these Questions are answered or not. Con Consider your agniveer, no eminent scholar takes him seriously because he speaks Non-Sense. To make it Clear, he has raised charges which are ALLIEN to Islam. So if he will debate (which will never, because he is a feared guy), will he not be humiliated before People. He has raised Nonsense theories. It seems, he too visits Answering Islam but Forgets to Visit Answering Christianity or something like that.

Qur’an tells they will be married their to Companions of equal age. And not Girlfriend’s. Because your religion permits you to lie that doesn’t mean you will speak anything.

When God didn’t made marriage bad in this world, it’s not bad in that world too.

So they will be Wed to Companions of equal age. What’s problem in it, I don’t understand. Yes God will give us every good thing there which eyes haven’t seen and heart hasn’t desired.,including marriages.

sister Aiza, Qur’an tells they will be married their to Companions of equal age??? Hmmm so you beleive that universe is not going to end. And how can a body stay without any damage forever in heaven or hell. Will you not be bored living in heaven?

Why do Muslim Girls suffer? What do you mean by this. Good and bad happen’s but we should try to be good. Weren’t lakhs of girl’s been raped in India and all over Delhi. This is not an argument. Rapist die a bad deed and will go to Hell.

1. Hitler taking Millions of Rebirth in lower animal’s and then become a human. A. It’s illogical B. Reference needed C. Ganpati case wasn’t explained D. All the world’s best people. Consider Mandela, Gandhi suffered huge problems but according to Hinduism this show they were big sinners previously. E. Reincarnation states that it will continue untill we achieve Mokhsha and Perfection. But this false because world is becoming evil day by day isn’t it. People of old were sincere than us.. F. Human population should have decreased or remained somehow constant according to this theory. But again false humans are increasing.

You posed 2 Question’s against Islam. 1. Allah stated in Qur’an that he originated heaven’s and earth. This proves that he is timeless. Go to Muslim Vs Atheist sites, you will find it explained on Logical Reasoning.

2. You proved that you know nothing about Qur’an. Allah’s throne What do you understand by God’s throne. I hope you are not fool like Pagan DAYANAND and his cult and will conclude it’s a throne which humans have containing 4 legs etc etc.

if here is no rebirth and no previous birth,then if good and bad appen, a just God should avoid bad happening to people.of he is truly just and of he wants to really test,then the test he gives should be uniform.but we have eextremely happy and enjoying people born and living in such conditions an extremely poor and extremely suffering people born and livingand even dying in such situation.that would be partiality on the side of God.this is not the way a just and impartial God should be.

-Hindu Pagan You are Making useless comment’s and neglecting main points, Quoting out of Context b a Fool.

1. You used Nonsense logic and a lie (A) We don’t believe life evolved in Middle East. Can you show single evidence from Qur’an or hadith. (B) Poor theory of life originating in India has nothing to do with reality. Herodatus, I don’t know whether he said. Even if he said it’s wrong, there is no scientific evidence for it as continent’s were joined initially.

2. Hindus don’t believe in Adam, eve you said. I said did you believe it that you were Quoting.

3. Can be broken in two Part’s – (A) Lie (B) Didn’t answer previous Claim (A) Lie that Allah tested the Girl being Raped. It’s a test for her. You being a PAGAN who based his claim on Agniveer or are blind to not se what Qur’an says

Here is the Verse you are talking about Qur’an 67:2 He Who created Death and Life, that He may TEST WHICH OF YOU IS BEST IN DEEDS

You as a PAGAN neglected what verse says. It says “to test who is best in deeds” and not you will be raped to get tested. Or perhaps you were blind (Qur’an 2:17)

Qur’an clearly tells not to go even near to adultery, leave aside Rape

Qur’an 17:32 “Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is an indecent (deed) and an evil way.”

(B) You didn’t answer Hitler as well as Girl’s rape according to Pagan Hinduism and other thing’s Properly. How many births anyway. Fools

4. Yes this theory is a fact for Pagan Hindus because for scientists there is no proof for life before big bang.

5. It’s based on a lie altogether. I don’t want to humiliate you by Quoting Hadiths showing they will be with husband’s. Slave girl’s is also a lie.

Please be honest. I didn’t say life originated in India. I said human life. Girl or boys suffer due to bad karma. Muslim girls also suffer . Who makes them suffer if not Allah? Why pious muslim girls have to suffer dishonour?

Hitler’s crime is finite. He wont get human birth as human birth is extremely rare.But after millions of birth as other creatures he may get a chance . Whats your problem. You want him to suffer till eternity?

There is an Allah who is there before universe started (bigbang) but you are not clear whether there is space and time before Allah created universe, and then he created universe and he himself sat on a throne above 7 heavens. So Allah must be some entity or has some attribute to limit himself to a throne isn’t it? I beleive that God (para brahmam) is beyond senses and imagination and cannot be limited to a place or time.

Secondy, Allah is speaking to Moses or make him hear sentences. Now can he not make him see visions too? I mean if he can be a radio then he can be a TV too. We Hindus beleive that God make Hindus see divine forms too not just hear voices and that’s precisely our Saguna Brahmam (Shiva, Vishnu and Durga)

I dont agree to praying to God by doing mere lip service. Be it saying “God i love you, thank you ” or saying”Allah you are great, Allah is the god and mohammed is his prophet” I am citing an example here. Now you may say muslims dont say kalima and all. My point is mere lip service is not praying. You need to concentrate and meditate upon. Here is the problem, we cannot concentrate or meditate on para brahmam because he is beyond senses (like eyes, ear etc) and mind.

I have problem with you beleiveing in a soul which is created or extracted during our life time and then stays in kabr and transferred to a body. Even a non muslim infant which died an hour after birth will get a body during day of judgement .then Allah will ask “Did you do shirk?” Did you beleive in some other god? Did you notbeleive in Mohammed? and the infant says i did’t do shirk because i dies after an hour and Allah send him to jannat and will give girlfriends? Then a Hindu who lived 80 years who did idolworship will have nothing to justify before Allah and his body is sent to hell for eternity. What kind of testing is this? What kind of justice?

Besides, how will a body last forever? why soul is created by Allah but not destroyed? Why Allah does not end…

@Jazib, 1. You said “So everyone was initially in INDIA (Hahaha). ” .Ans:-Whats so funny here? in 300BCE, greater India had 33% of humanity living here. Herodotus says in known worlds (including china), Indians are the largest nation surpassing china in those days. Now did you believe that humanity originated in Africa as science says??? Most semitic religions believe that humanity(Adam) originated in middle east which seems to be more “LOL” stuff.

2. some people who were Hindu believed in Adam Ans:- Did I say that??? Hindus don’t believe in adam eve stuff. Puranas says that from Brahma the creator Brahmarshis, prajapatis originated. All humans are their descendants. I think you are not reading my comments properly. And you simply says I am not answering properly. Rather it’s you who is not answering to my questions. Let the neutral folks in this board judge.

3.Girl suffering at the hands of some thugs- islam says that its a test from allah and those thugs are helping allah test that girl??? Hinduism never criticize victims and justify criminals actions… I have already commented before. read it properly. If you don’t understand read twice or thrice. I am sure you will understand what I said

4. yes universe appear and then disappear. in all universe there will be demigods, rishis, humans etc.. Check with sceintists? this is yet another theory even science is having.

5. I have clearly explained re-incarnation .Read it again. your linear concept is rather ridiculous ,where a body is recreated and heaven and hell will stay for ever and all. For guys like you there is no issue. You will have slave women. I pity the muslimahs. They will not even have their husbands in heaven. husbands will simply ignore the muslimah as he has got many slave women.

6. Lord Ganesh losing head has deep meaning. its symbolic and art of God’s lila. No sins for supreme blissful enlightened Ganesha

Regarding hitler he may not get a human life as he is very sinful. Countless births he will have to spend as animals ,worms etc before he will get another human birth. I am sure you are not that dumb not to understand what I said. Read all my posts 2-3 times. You are simply trying to frustrate me and confuse all in the board.

Some political stuff:- Actually islam is declining. I thought in 90s that with the help of Taliban and mujahideen Kashmir will be conquered by Pakistan soon. Nothing happened. I thought muslims will be atleast 20% by 2015 in india, but its just 15% now. Now the unity of ummah is lost. Unity of salafists and sunni muslims itself losing? ISIS is killing sunni arabs and kurds (who are predominantly sunni)..Saudi had 750billion USD in 2014 dec now down to 650 billion reserve…. Atleast 5% of muslims everywhere are apostates ,atheists and agnostic and numbers rising…Where is islam heading ?

-Hindu You’r answer’s are unsatisfactory. So everyone was initially in INDIA (Hahaha). This theory is totally rubbish. 2. What do you mean by some people who were Hindu believed in Adam (do you believe them). Is it in Vedas. So why using this as a proof. 3. You agreed that Girl gets raped because of her previous sins. Then what’s there any need for torturing Rapist as it was Girls mistake. Vedas is wrong here. 4. So there was other universe before the formation of this were war’s were fought. Interestingly Vedas mentions the places of India in those wars. Therefore there was India before universe or another India in previous Universe. Previous Universe before big bang. SCIENTISTS SALUTE VEDAS. 5. Then you gave You’r own definition of Rooh by concluding it’s rubbish. You’re religion tells about reincarnation which is most Nonsense concept one can have. Hitler committed 6 million murders. How many Punar (or Poor) janam will he take to pay for it. 6 crore or 6 billion. Fool’s Girl gets raped because of Previous sin’s So, Ganesha must have also Committed Sins so that evil befalled him that his head was cut. Or Sita did because she was kidnapped. According to this Poor theory, if you see anyone who IS VERY GOOD what will he conclude that the guy was a sinner. So all POOR PEOPLE, ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING IN HOSPITALS, THOSE WHO LOST THEIR PARENT’S WERE SINNERS. 6. Hinduism is paganic, it doesn’t satisfy the basis for true religion in the least.

the theory of karma is that what you have done,it will come back to you.yes,if the girls are being raped,then they must have committed sins in the previous birth.hitler has to be born nd reborn to pay for his sins.s per the law of karma,no suffering that one undergoes is without cause from his/her side.you do something,you get it back.i think this theory is better that your “god testing ” theory. but here there is another point.there is a concept of dharma.that is, if you see anyone suffering,even for their previous sins,no matter what,it is your dharma(righteousness/duty) to help them overcome the situation.God is the one who is giving suffering to them for their karma,not you.you dont have to interfere in his job,you have to do only your job of helping others. so, if i se a girl being ,lets say insulted in a bad way, i cannot say it is her karma that she has to undergo this suffering even though it is , i have to save her from the situation because saving her is my dharma.if i do not do my dharma,then that is a bad karma that i have done and i shall be punished for it in the next birth.there is nothing wrong in this theory at all.

Every scripture was revealed toa particular group at a particular time……people allaround the world know quran…..becausemuslims spread quran

People arenotmuch aware of quran……because as Hindu’s we don’t feel a need to spread quran…….we believe there are multiple paths to success….u will have your paths……and as such we don’t think there is any need for you to be changed

But on the other hand….if u yourselves read and understand vedas……and want to follow that path to god….we don’t mind……a path were u will realise there is no caste or hatred, no need to kill the”infidels” Yes…people in India follow castes…..because hardly any actually read any of their scriptures !

-Hindu You’r Foolish Argument’s doesn’t answer anything. First of all I belong to Adam and Eve’s family, my ancestry have nothing to do with Performing some Rituals which were only known to some people of India. You contradicted Vedas restricted to Brahmins them why You’r fake scholars preaching it to other’s.

You answered none of my points nor Aiza’s, anyway.

1. Darwins Theory is true, this shows how much science you know.

2. Vedas say 2 billion according to you or 4. 5 which is false as correct is 14 billion. Qur’an says 6 long period’s.

3. So you agree girl was raped as it was a punishment for her previous sins.

4. Vedas were not before Universe, this nonsense is shattered by the very fact that Vedas contains stories regarding war’s, people. So can you tell which war happened before creation of universe.

5. The passage I Quoted was regarding irreligious foes and it’s not what Zakir Naik says it’s what you’re eminent scholar dayanand has said.

6. The thing that Vedas are only for Brahmins proves Hinduism wrong. Vedas shouldn’t be only in India.

You didn’t refuted any of above Problems.

Vedas are in Sanskrit. There are only 5000 people who know sanskrit as there mother tongue. This language will become extinct soon according to Language scholars. That’s not Point. The point is its in a language not understood easily and today hardly by a dozen of people. The Problem becomes drastic as you’re scholars say it’s not easy to translate. Why would God send it in a language not known or understood or can’t be

I would like to post few clarifications regarding the iseas given by HINDU

1)The wordings that “only brahmins can learn vedas or dovedic rituals” is incorrect……thecorrect interpretation i believe is ,the ones who havelearned Vedas and have experiences God (brahman) orknows god is called a Brahmin

2)Therefore there is no real restriction on ayone to learn anything…..including the vedas……even without learning vedas, if u still could realise god……albeit through the path of Islam….I believe u should be called Brahmin

BUT: Just believing in god…..wouldn’t make u a brahmin….u need to experience/know god

Obviously….the usage of brahmin here has no relevance tothe (incorrect) usage of the word in India nowadays…….it now more refers to certain class…..which is wrong

Similar arguments work for kshatriyas, sudras and vaishyas too

Now a clarificaion to c=some point u and Aiza raised: 1)regarding vedas in sanskrit…..vedas not revealed to everybody….

My understanding of Vedas is that …..studying vedas is not a means to anything…….what matters is you do your work in the best possible way u can……in away u believe that suits the society best,….Just that when deciding whats best for a society…..u must be sure thatt whatever decision u make is made by your totally unbiased minds (meaning -when u setsocial norms……the standard of reference should be your inner conscience…..unadulterated by books)

What is then the purpose of books? Ans: Books indeed contain guidance…..but allbooks even if provided by god…..has run through the hands of mortals……and undergoes change in meanings when translated from one language to other…….we must be able to separate out the wheat from the chaff….we Hindu’s call it “smruti content” of a book….this exists in all scriptures…..in vedas, bible and even in your quran

1. Darwins Theory is true, this shows how much science you know. :- I said we cannot scientifically prove it wrong…we can say humans does not evolved it is a special creation … science always proves… science is not based on hypothesis.

2. Vedas say 2 billion according to you or 4. 5 which is false as correct is 14 billion. Qur’an says 6 long period’s. I said earth was created 4.5 billion years ago . it was universe which is created 14 billion ago. quran says long period which can be interpreted by zakir naik only…..LOL…. do you know when adam came to earth? you have proof? why earth was created very long ago,but adam came only very recently?

3. So you agree girl was raped as it was a punishment for her previous sins.- May be including her current life, she had to suffer. But you believe that it is a test from Allah for no reason. Anyway the perpetuators of crime are gravely sinned. One’ sins diminish when they suffer and no new sinful deeds are done

4. Vedas were not before Universe, this nonsense is shattered by the very fact that Vedas contains stories regarding war’s, people. So can you tell which war happened before creation of universe. – Yes the similar pattern happens every universe. not just universe, each manwantaras saptarshis appear, Indra appear etc. it is cyclic.

5,6) Vedic injunctions were for all. At time of creation all humanity was in India. There were separate injunctions for Brahmins, Kshatriyas, vysysa and shudra in Vedas. The right to recite vedas is with Brahmins only. And every one were speaking in Sanskrit. This is our belief… Now proof is India had 1/3 rd of humanity at time of mauryas. More than china.. When people started drifting away from vedas, there started appearing mlecchas,yavanas and chandalas who went to distant lands .. in fact bhagavatam says there are seven continents and jambu dweep (asia??) has 9 sub continents and southern most is India. It extends from Himalaya-hindkush to sri lanka

contd….some even think Indonesia was part of ancient India. semitic people also believes same. Adam was first man, he appeared in middle east (mesopotomia??) and all humanity descended from him… If you think hindu beleief is blind so is semitic

Now Jazib & Aiza,

first I thought you were blind beleivers of islam. Later I thought you will lie for islam even if you understand issues with quranic beleief system as you belong to muslim community and want to protect that community.You are comfortable as muslims and want all humanity to be muslims so you have respect. Still later I felt you have hard time understanding what I am saying, may be you too feels the same. Now after thinking for a while I understand your after life some what . We belong to two belief system which may have many common things, but differences too.

Soul concept :-

In hindusim soul is (the I ) or Self. This is not possessed by any one or body.It has nothing to do with capability of body or mind or intellect. So animals too have souls. Zakir naik says hindus believe in soul possessed and transferred from body to body. This is not true. After thinking deep, I understand that islam actually does not believe in a soul like we do. You rather believe that the body that was created during judgement day stays in heaven or hell forever. So heaven and hell also must be eternal. So there is no end to current universe

Basicllay in islam (correct me if wrong ) rooh is something (memory or some other) that will exists after we die in earth and then during judgement day when a new body is received, the rooh is transferred to that body. This is like a computer after getting destroyed will have it’s data in a backup harddisk. Again computer will get a newbody (a new computer is created during judgement day). All data in backup harddisk is copied to new computer. This rooh stays in qabr until judgement day.. To me this sounds rubbish

The Vedas which are considered as word of Ishwar by Arya Samajists makes worshipping Ishwar and ‘yajna’ as mandatory. In fact, those who don’t perform it are called as ‘Rakshasas’! “..O man I ordain thee to worship the All-pervading God.”

– (Yajurved 5:21, Tr. Devi chand)

Those who don’t perform yajna are evil minded rakhshasas,

“…The inferior articles not used in the sacrifice are the allotted portion of the fiends.” – (Yajurved 2:23, Tr. Devi chand) Devi chand writes in the footnote of this mantra:

“Rakhshasas means the evil minded persons, who do not perform yajna. They eat the inferior articles rejected in the yajna.” Tell me folks, how just is it on Ishwar’s part to order destruction of those ‘Rakhshasas’?

All you said is applicable to Brahmins. Karma (ritual) with bhakthi (saguna bhakthi) leads to njana (knowledge) and njana leads to moksha. modern hindu swamis, babas and spiritualists are saying anyone can meditate on brahmam which is false. meditate on what??? ball of light??? fog??? As i said we cannot meditate on God as God is beyond imagination and senses. There are no mantras for para brahmam. Even Adi Sankar told his disciples to worship Vishnu, Shiva, Durga (God in form) . They were capable of sitting in nitidhyasa and nirvikalpa in brahmam conceousness, still acharya told them to worhip in saguna form because only saguna God can cleanse people from sins.

Zakir naik is wrongly quoting isavasyopanishad. Isavasya says that sambhuti and asambhuti should go side by side. So deos it says avidya (karma) and vidya (devata upasana- worhip) should go side by side. those who worship one alone will enter darkness. not the person who does both…

Also zakir’s definition of sambhuti and asambhuti is ridiculous. Same isavasya says avidyaya mrityum teerthua vidyaya amrutha mashnute (with avidya conquer death and vidya attain devatamabhava) so says Adi Sankara in his commentary. Same he says about sambhuti and asambhuti….

Anyway coming to you, Vedic ritual is for brahmin. For shudras they can follow vedas by serving pure vedic brahmin in rituals. For mlechchas (muslims) you have to be good shudras.

Aiza and Jazib read Narayaneeyam- chant holy names of Hari, Govinda, Krishna, Narayana and Shiva and take only vegetarian food if you want to escape from endless cycle of births and rebirths

Moreover, Why didn’t God made Vedas reach everywhere. We would have neglected the case whether after that it was accepted or not.

And if you say that we believe that those Muslim’s who do Good will be spiritually uplifted. You are not able to analyse Problem

It’s like saying we can be successful without Vedas then what’s there any need of Vedas at first place. No Muslim reads Vedas, No Christian or Jew do.

2. You’r statement Contradicts Vedas. In Chapter of Rig veda 12:6:52 it says that one who REJECTS Vedas should be destroyed.

If you can find spiritually you without Vedas then what’s need of Vedas. Sorry to say Vedas should had been everywhere and that too from BEGINING?

And that’s not the only problem in Hinduism that you will notice God trying to restrict his message to a particular place but we also see that every Hindu DEVA like Ram Krishna etc etc were from INDIA. None of them is an outsider.

Many other thing’s you can see like only those rivers that are in India are Holy to you like Ganga.

Holy places only in India like Amaranth etc.

This is a big Problem. I don’t get it. It’s similar to African traditional religion or other’s.

The only 2 religion’s that pass this tests are Islam and Christianity.

2. When did VED came into existence is also not known. You’r scholars have multiple views. DAYANAND even suggest more than million which can’t be true as paper pen wasn’t then.

Good arguments Aiza… However Vedic rituals are for Brahmins only. For kshatriya there is another set of rules. For shudras vedas say to serve pure and vedic brahmins in their sacrifices as Dharma. Aray samaj is trying to spread vedic ritual which is good, but right to vedic ritual is only brahminical. For non shudra muslims and others they should try to become good shudras. Thats why i said muslims can uplift them. Follwing Vedas is not only doing agnihotradi rituals.

Vedas are eternal . never created. Even in previous universe same Vedas where there. Brhma the creator used Vedas to create worlds. This is Hindu beleif. We do not beleive that Vedas were written by some rishis. it is puranas that was written by rishis . Also smritis. Not sruthi (Vedas). Now forget about materialistic aspect, but being born in india the holy land is considered as a great boon. remember during chandra gupta maurya period 1/3 rd of humanity were indians. 5 crore out of 15 crores. Herodotus confirms that after indians thracians are the most numerous. Thracians were definitely not the second , but first part of herodotus statement is correct

1. Darwins Theory DO you believe that, it is just a theory and not a fact. There are 1000s of book’s against it.

There are theories then which tell that we came from same Parents but again that’s a theory and we don’t use it.

Darwins poor theory suggest that we were Apes (maybe he was) but why did this process suddenly stopped. Why are not Apes developing Now and where are those who should be at the stage between Man and Apes. There are various problems but why wasting time on it, it’s a theory. Does Vedas say anything like what Darwin said?

2. Sorry but Vedas should had been everywhere. Why Brahmin birth is lucky. Why not a dalit one?

Reincarnation theory contains various problems as Jazib also said according to this theory if evil befalls us or we face problems, that’s due to our past life sins.

Does that mean, a girl who gets raped was herself responsible for it because she had done in past life. And the Rapist becomes good according to it as he helped Ishwar in making him pay his last life sins.

Aiza- Darwin is correct in scientific sense. We cannot disprove him scientifically. Darwin did not say humans evolved from apes. He said all apes, chimps , gorillas and humans are descended from common ancestor creature. Now evolution always happen. It is happening even in modern humans . Per Darwin even the ancestor of humans and chimps had a common ancestor with all mammals. All creatures in earth had a common ancestor billions of years ago and that would be a single cell organisms in the ocean. Do not try proving religion scientifically. science is for better life in materialistic world. Thats not the purpose of religion. Also scientific things will become obsolete. bulbs have become obsolete now due to arrival of LED lights. So if religion is scinece, religion also will become obsolete. will you agree? like zakir naik, you will end up in re-inventing quranic verses to fit to modern science all the time.. As a Hindu beleiver i don’t beleieve in Darwin though. We descended from Brahma . This is the problem with all religions. Atleast Hinduism say earth was created by Brahma 7 manwantaras ago, which will be close to 2 billion years (minimum). I did not consider in between pralaya years. If you consider that it may exactly match with modern scientific age of earth i.e 4.5 billion…

Also as religious beleivers we have another issue in common. why would God create earth 4.5 billion years ago and then create modern man (homo sapien) only 100,000 years ago. This sounds illogical to us. All religionist beleive that earth is created for humans and human life is to attain salvation

Now Brahmin life is lucky becuase, he has knowledge of vedas. Brahmin is most religious. So he has better chance to attain salvation .

Coming to reincarnation there is no problem… It is most logical than your after life concept. A women suffering at the hands of few thugs has done sins either in past life or past lives or even this life. When and where one person gets punishment is decided by God. “Dharmo rakshati rakshita”. One who observes dharma need not have to fear as dharma will protect him. May be Jazib ancestor Bhat did not perform his Brahminical dharma correctly so he had to convert to islam.

Those who harm others, are doing this because of ignorance and since they are sinful. They become more and more sinful by harming women and doing such nasty things. For value less pleasure that too for some time they do henious crimes and sink in samsara more and more.

Soul is self, the feeling of I, my, mine. Even animals have this feeling. soul is not something residing inside body somewhere. Even if one cuts his hands, he still have feeling of I.. Soul is self counceousness which is God. Only God exists so the Self is also God. One who realises this true Self attain salvation. Due to illusion or maya one associates his self with his body and mind. However a computer (or robot) which has body and mind(CPU) has no feeling of Self, hence no life. Even you beleive in re-incarnation in a way as you think you will attain a body and mind after death in heaven or hell. is’nt it? Only sinless can attain salvation . They will have knowledge and realise the true nature of Self (the only one counceousness , the only one “I” which is the absolute true para brahmam) . Until then one has to be born again and again. no escape.

-Hindu Can you answer following Question’s 1. If Vedas were the only book of God. Then it’s logical that it should had been in every part of the world from BEGINING for people to know it. But we know it wasn’t so vedas are from God Is false.

The error is clear, why would God restrict his message only to India (In India also less than 1% know vedas even today) leave aside people from other countries, they don’t even know the name Vedas. At a push you will find west people and other’s knowing about Bhagwat Gita or Mahabarata.

God would like everyone to know Truth. Isn’t it. But Vedas are not known, so vedas are false.

Qur’an clearly tells that book’s were send previously for a particular time or for a particular group of people. But since Qur’an is final message it’s send to whole Humanity. Qur’an solves this Problem.

Now you may ask what about those who don’t know about Islam. First of all there will hardly be anyone today who doesn’t know about Islam. But since these type of people exist that’s why we are told to preach message everywhere and that’s what many 1000s of Muslim scholars are doing throughout world. Those who reject after knowing truth will be punished.

But still there are people whom our scholars can’t even reach. And God tells that he won’t let anyone die untill he knows what truth is. Maybe God will make him feel that IDOL worship is bad, and God will make him know this so affectively that on day of judgement he won’t complain. As he said WE WILL SHOW THEM OUR SIGNS IN FURTHEST REGIONS OF HORIZONS AND WITHIN THEMSELVES. (Qur’an 41:53)

And this is true there are only 2 communities who were cut from modern world untill 1924 and it’s found that worship only one God like us, don’t so idol worship like us, do prostration (sujood) like us. Who inspired it in them. This was only way to test that whether God made them know it and the ONLY EXAMPLE WE HAVE REVEALED THAT IT’S THE TRUTH of your…

ok my answer may seem atrocious to many on board including Hindus, but greater India is Bharat where Vedic knowledge is delivered. After countless births as animals, plants , worms etc once sins are diminished and sins and good are comparable only then one gets human birth. But majority will be mlecchas, Yavanas and chandalas. Only spiritually better will get Shudra life. Then comes Vysya and then Kshatriya. Finally Brahmin birth is rare and lucky birth.

All Brahmins may not have Vedic knowledge only a few. Even all brahmins who have Vedic knowledge will not have desire to get liberated by washing away all sins. Only sinless can achieve enlightentment. So thats the reason Vedas say “Ahimsa paramo dharma” (Ahimsa- not harming any one mentally, physically, verbally) is the highest Dharma…

So we does beleive that muslims who do good can get a spiritually uplifted birth in next birth… It is mandatory for all to perform varna (Brahmin, kshatriya, vysya and shudra) – ashrama (brahmacharya, grihastha, vanaprastha and sanyasa) dharma…

However we are in kaliyuga .. just chant the holy names Hari, Narayana, Govinda , Krishna and Shambho Mahadeva any human being regardless of his birth can attain salvation.. Have you heard of Haridasa Thakura of Bengal? qazi forced him to renounce hinduism and stop behaving like hindu. Haridas thakur said living without the holy name of Hari in lips is living like an animal. So qazi asked his men to torture him and then cut to pieces and throw in padma river. But lord protected him ….

Division is seen only in Hinduism where Caste System exists. You guy’s have Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Shuras etc Achots.

How come you define this. Qur’an clearly shatters this nonsense by informing us that we were created from a Single Male and Female. So when we have common Parent’s distinction doesn’t arise.

The Best in sight of Allah (Swt) is one who exhort people to truth.

Who is better than the one who Call People to there Lord Work’s righteousness and submits only to him. Check Qur’an 41:33 for above.

-Hindu Qur’an makes it clear who is best

Qur’an 110:1-3 1. By the token of time 2. Verily, Man is in Loss 3. EXCEPT such as have faith and perform righteous deeds, exhort people to truth and exhort people to patience and percievence.

I tried to see explanation given by Agniveer on caste system and he has failed miserably in explaining it.

He said regarding Ishwar created Brahmins from Mouth and all that stuff Nonsense Point’s.

1. He failed to realize that distinction has been made between Creation of Brahmins and Other’s, whether this passage is literal or metaphorical, this point is evident. 2. He tries to deceive by giving excuses like we do vomit through mouth etc etc I MEAN BY THIS HE IS JUST GIVING A IMPRESSION THAT BRAHMINS ARE WORST THAN KSHTRIYA and not answering the point. 3. He says that this passage is in past tense (I hope he have checked every verse of veda which is past tense) and so this is about past BUT STILL THEN WHY DISTINCTION BRTWEEN CREATION OF BRAHMIN AND DALIT. 4. HIS Photo contain the word’s that If Brahmins were created from mouth and dalits from feet it Mean’s we all are created from God. The Deception is nice but still distinction is made and moreover we aren’t from God. If you show this passage to anyone he will say that one who is created from mouth is superior to one created from feet and that’s the impression it gives.

Per Darwin there is no adam and eve. It’s your blind belief. We beleive that we all descended from Brahma the creator.

Now in purusha sukta it says brahmanosya mukhamaseel (brahmin from face of virad purusha) , bahu rajanyah krita ooru tadasya yad vysya etc… It does not mean Brahmin are superior . comparing a shudra doing his duty and a brahmin not performing his duty , the shudra is superior . Higher privilege mean more responsibility….

-Hindu What type of Question’s these are? Toilet and Rapist are impure thing’s, you don’t need anyone to know it. Why are you confusing whether a Rapist is pure or impure. He is impure.

You said that Muslim’s will eventually go to heaven but after hell and that will be because he didn’t associated anything with most high.

Even if a Hindu submits his will to God, he will also have eternal life. Muslim Mean’s anyone who submits his will to God.

And God doesn’t divide people.

Qur’an 10:19 Mankind were but one community , then they fell into variance later on.

I remember Holy verses were L-rd told about disbelievers deeds. There are Other parables also but see this one

Qur’an 24:39-40 39. But the Unbelievers,- their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds God (ever) with him, and God will pay him his account: and God is swift in taking account. 40. Or (the Unbelievers’ state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom God giveth not light, there is no light!

-Pagan Hindu He answered but you don’t understand and that’s not our problem. God does not need to be in a rapist or toilet. Even if you say that God is everywhere still you’re confining him as universe is finite although expanding but finite.

You lied that Hindus are not permitted to kill irreligious foes, There are tons of Verses in Vedas.

And nowhere does Qur’an say to kill Hindus. You’r scholars quote Qur’an out of context that doesn’t justify anything.

Qur’an says No Compulsion in Religion (2:256) To you be You’r way and to me mine (109:6) However 2nd case applies when you don’t want to accept reality.

In general

Qur’an 5:32 if any one KILL A PERSON – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – IT WOULD BE AS IF HE KILLED WHOLE HUMANITY : and if any one SAVES A LIFE, it would be as if HE SAVED THE LIFE OF WHOLE HUMANITY .

you are saying “God does not need to be in a rapist or toilet.”. Ok so who made heaven paak (pure)? Allah or angels or Adam? Who made toilet na paak (impure)? humans or house keeping maids or Allah? who making hell na paak? Satan or hindus or Allah…. Now you said a muslim beleiver even if he done wrong to a woman or kill innocent will eventually goto heaven (like mohammed bin qasim). So if God is not in such bad people, why God is allowing them to enter paradise where he is staying?

Hindus justify killing only if a kshatriya king or his shudra soldiers (soldiers of state) kill in open battle for justice. That does’nt mean they can kill them when unarmed and definitely not attacking civilian population, women and children under any circumstances.

My problem is you are dividing people to good and bad, places to good and bad etc etc…. want hindus to rot eternally in hell. This is a sadistic attitude. No body can be put eternally in hell…. the difference between 1 and infinity and difference between 1 billion and infinity is the same.

-Pagan Hindu She answered all your Question and Sister Aiza, I want you to see his deceptionist video.

Zakir Naik in the video says regarding Forever of Earth first and then talks about Hereafter.

Watch from 1:10 onwards he says regarding Hell first of all and not heaven. He says IT CAN BE A BILLION YEARS (Allahu Alam – implying he is not sure).

And this liar said, he said so. Zakir Naik Is not sure but reputed scholars have confirmed, it’s Eternal hell anyway.

This pagan said he doesn’t believe in Qur’an but thinks we would believe in some Pagan rishis who are truthful according to him.

His Question’s

1 . God is in Heavens

Not everywhere because then he would be in a rapist and according to pagan Hinduism he may be even there, we don’t care. God does not need to be in impure thing’s.

2. So king Ghazi killed so many people and took away 10 lack women’s (his source seems to be Agniveer’s articles). Is there any Historical proof.

Lies above used : Muslim’s don’t tell Kalama 5 time’s a day. Hindus are most people who do HIMSA. How many Muslim’s were burnt in Gujrat riots, how many Muslim women’s were raped. Ulfa (Hindu terrorists) killed people in Assam and it’s continuing. People in Kashmir and you can’t lie here because I AM A RESIDENT OF KASHMIR. Our sister’s were raped.

Hindu Pagan eternal hell. Muslim sinner finite hell.

3. You exposed poor knowledge about Islam and Christianity there and Shiva and Durga are Pagan’s.

Jazib, You said 1 . God is in Heavens – That means Allah is not beyond space. He can be confined to a place. Be it heaven or any other place.

Now, when Hiranyakasipu asked Prahlada, where is Lord Narayana? Prahlada said He is everywhere. So (A) is TRUE. Gods have their own abodes in Hindusim so (C) is TRUE.

Now “Adi Sankara says Brahmam (God) satyam ,Jagat mithya ” God alone is absolute reality and existing . Universe (along with space and time ) is illusion . So the question itself would be irrelevant.

Regarding Zakir naik, he says stay in heaven is billions of years. where is billions of years compared to infinity (forever)??? How can some one be punished for eternity for finite crimes.

Ghazi king??? I am referring mohammed Bin Qasim… It was a typo , the real number is around one lakh not one million. Now, Bin Qasim invaded Sind with an army of 12000 to 20000 (max estimate). Even I don’t think he can capture 1 million.

My religion does not say that those who harm muslims will go un-punished for their crimes. It is islam who says that you can harm hindus and get away…punishment in hell will be for some time. For poor helpless Hindu victims of ghazi atrocities hell fire is infinity

You have’nt answered any of my questions. Your refutation is based on quranic verses ,not common logic. And I don’t beleive in Quran not even a small bit of it. Zakir Naik did say staying in heaven is not eternal Watch:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9MM3HJQxM0

To Aiza and all mulsim on board. Please please be honest and select your sincere answers from the following..I expect you to be 100% sincere.

A) Great Ghazi Kings like Mohammed Bin Qasim who killed several thousand Hindu men in Sind and Multan and then captured weeping 100,0000 women and children ,made them slaves and send 30,000 of them to Iraq who after doing all these say (In Arabic) “Allah is great; There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet” five times a day 11) And then another Ghazi king Mahmud who killed ,enslaved 500,000 Hindus of Afghanistan, FATA, Khyberpakhtoonkhwa and Punjab.

B) A Hindu who does not harm any one follow Ahimsa, worship forms of God (or signs of God) Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu by worshipping the idols of pristine temples

c) Allah is the best judge. Allah knows the Best

3. Select from below the TRUE statement?

A) Smart Musa Nabi who can distinguish the sentence in Arabic he heard to be from Allah and not made by some one using loud speaker. Btw he saw a bush fire which is sign from Allah ???

B) Not so smart Moses of Christians and Jews, who will doubt whether the sentence (in Hebrew/Aramaic/Canaanite/ancient Egyptian), is from Yahweh or some one using loudspeaker; so Yahweh appeared as a boy (like in movie “Exodus Gods and kings”) or rather made Moses saw a boy’s image speaking

What can or should free people do to ensure that their societies do not fall under the domination of Islamic Law (shariah) ?

Each and every American who cherishes their Constitution and FREEDOM (of thought, belief, association, politics, religion, thought, etc.) must not allow any judge or administration to allow Islamic Law (shariah) the slightest chance of taking root on American soil because Sharia is like a virulent virus, the most deadly known to humankind.

My conclusions based on over 30 years of studies are:

Islam is NOT a Religion but most definitely a CULT belief system as well as a legal, military, political, and social system of totalitarian control. Allah is most assuredly NOT the same as the God of Jesus, Moses and Abraham because Allah is only the NAME of the supreme moon god of Pagan Arabia centuries before Muhammad and his Quran and represented to this day in the Kaba’a by an ancient meteorite called the Black Stone. Jihad is most definitely NOT a spiritual struggle to commune with God but eternal WAR against all Unbelievers until all humanity is subject to Sharia. No god called Allah nor any angel called Gabriel ever revealed a single verse to Muhammad because every letter, word, verse and Chapter in the Quran is the product of Muhammad’s imaginings, the secretions of his depraved mind, his Alter Ego, his Autobiography, but very cleverly projected into the unsuspecting mouths of Allah and Gabriel to give them the aura of sanctity and divinity. It is by Divine Will (Qidra Ilahyyah) and divine Justice (Haq Ilahi) that the very Hadiths that explain to the followers of Muhammad his Quran and Sunna, are the very same that utterly DISCREDIT Muhammad as a prophet and the ALLEGED divine origin of his Quran. Although my statements may sound outrageous and hyperbolic to those hearing and seeing them for the first time, I can and do (as in this interview) corroborate every single assertion that I make with citations from the Islamic scriptures…

“The Iraqi-born native Arabic-speaker who goes by the name ‘I. Q. Rassooli’ has lived in Europe since his university days studying engineering in England. His mind is an inquiring and a questioning one, characteristics not much appreciated among the conformist Muslim community of his origins. And so he stayed in the West and, for the next 23 years, undertook ‘as thorough a study of Islam as humanly possible,’ as he says.

What is the most important thing Westerners should know about the life of the Muslim prophet Muhammad?

First and foremost, Muhammad should not be called a ‘prophet’ because there is nowhere in his Qur’an and Hadith that he prophesized anything. Instead, in the Qur’an, the hadiths, and the Sira (biography of Muhammad), we read in the original Islamic scriptures themselves that Muhammad committed crimes against humanity on a massive scale: these scriptures themselves recount that Muhammad ordered assassinations of the elderly and nursing mothers because they ridiculed him; that he raped and enslaved captured women; that he personally participated in the mass killing of POWs; that he led a military campaign of genocide against the Jewish tribes of the Arabian Peninsula; and that he married a six-year-old and raped her at aged nine (his child bride, Aisha). I say this not because of anger or a mere wish to be insulting. I do so based entirely on the Islamic records themselves that I can quote in chapter and verse to support my assertions.

For example, each of these assertions may be found precisely as described in the Sirat (biographies) of Muhammad, as written by faithful Muslims.

One of the most authoritative of those biographies comes to us from the Muslim historian Ibn Ishak, as translated by Alfred Guillaume: ‘The Life of Muhammad.’

-Pagan Hindu You’r Point’s can be summarized as: 1 . Zakir Naik said that Hell is not eternal as soul has death and birth 2. God can’t Hear, see, talk and some Hindu Pagan’s saw God who are truthful. 3. God is in toilet and Hinduism is monotheistic.

Answer – 1.1 Zakir Naik never said what you are saying about Hell, Soul, Death and Birth 1.2 Proof it’s Eternal

Surah 10:52 Then it will be said to them who wronged themselves: “Taste you the EVERLASTING TORMENT ! Are you recompensed (aught) save what you used to earn?”

There are further evidences or I would say 100s but above one is enough for current.

2.1 If God can’t Hear then why do we pray as he will not listen or SEE our condition’s. 2.2 He does and that’s the truth otherwise it’s illogical to pray even

Qur’an 2:137 And if they believe in the like of that which ye believe, then are they rightly guided, But if they turn away, then are they in schism, and Allah will suffice thee (for defence) against them. He is the ALL HEARER, ALL KNOWER.

Again many evidences for above buy 1 is enough.

2.3 How do you know they saw God and that they are truthful.

Qur’an 6:103 No vision can grasp him but his grasp is over all visions’s.

3.1 If God is everywhere then he is bound to time and space 3.2 Why do he exists in unholy places 3.2.1 If you say Everything is holy because God is everywhere then is rape and murder holy as GOD should be there also. 3.3 Hinduism is not Monotheistic. We Love Dr. Zakir Naik but we disagree with him on this. He is wrong in this matter but then again he has based his view on Arya Samaj concept of God regarding Hinduism. 3.4 Qur’an on very 1st verse starts with Name of God (Qur’an 1:1) Bible starts with same (Genesis 1:1) Vedas start with the name of A high priest, Agni (Rig veda 1:1) and see next verses it talks about Multiple God’s. This problem in vedas was analysed by many eminent Hindu Scholars, Consider Swami…

You have’nt answered any of my questions. Your refutation is based on quranic verses ,not common logic. And I don’t beleive in Quran not even a small bit of it. Zakir Naik did say staying in heaven is not eternal Watch:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9MM3HJQxM0

To Aiza and all mulsim on board. Please please be honest and select your sincere answers from the following..I expect you to be 100% sincere.

A) Great Ghazi Kings like Mohammed Bin Qasim who killed several thousand Hindu men in Sind and Multan and then captured weeping 100,0000 women and children ,made them slaves and send 30,000 of them to Iraq who after doing all these say (In Arabic) “Allah is great; There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet” five times a day 11) And then another Ghazi king Mahmud who killed ,enslaved 500,000 Hindus of Afghanistan, FATA, Khyberpakhtoonkhwa and Punjab.

B) A Hindu who does not harm any one follow Ahimsa, worship forms of God (or signs of God) Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu by worshipping the idols of pristine temples

c) Allah is the best judge. Allah knows better

3. Select from below the TRUE statement?

A) Smart Musa Nabi who can distinguish the sentence in Arabic he heard to be from Allah and not made by some one using loud speaker.Btw he saw a bush fire which is sign from Allah ???

B) Not so smart Moses of Christians and Jews, who will doubt whether the sentence (in Hebrew/Aramaic/Canaanite/ancient Egyptian), is from Yahweh or some one using loudspeaker; so Yahweh appeared as a boy (like in movie “Exodus Gods and kings”) or rather made Moses saw a boy’s image speaking

soul has birth and no death – this is what you believe…. tell me your point here. Tomorrow if some one say soul has death but no birth will you accept?

ZAKIR Naik says soul has birth and death… stay in jannah is not forever.. openly he said so. Will you accept?

2. Now God spoke to moses is a big flaw in your concept. God is beyond all senses ear (cannot hear), eyes (cannot see him), skin(can’t touch him), toungue (cannot taste him) and nose(no smell of him)…. Also he is beyond mind (imagination)…. Who said this ? not me ,not quran but the Holy Vedas….

So God assumed forms for our sake. Many Hindu devotees (PBUT) have seen God(Durga, Vishnu,Shiva).. They don’t lie.

But you muslims says we can’t see him but can hear him…. Quran does not say Allah made Moses hear some sound but clearly says God spoke to Moses. I can’t keep laughing

3. Is God is toilet??? Yes so says Hinduism….Only if toilet exists though. We believe that God alone is absolute truth!!! God alone is existant…. Universe is maya or illusion. Even space and time is non existant. You can’t keep God in a place like Jannat…. Then he is in toilet and jahannum and in Saudi Arabia too

It is not like you are in your house….You cannot be fully present in all rooms.But God is present in all rooms fully.

God is present in living room fully, bedroom fully…But there are no two Gods. Only one absolute reality. Part of God is whole- Purnamada purnamadam purnat ……..

conceousness of all is one .That is Brahmam (GOD)…. That is individual soul as well …Hinduism is absolute monism not “monotheism”

Hahaha Unfortunately Ishwar is incapable of Forgiving sin’s thus he is no better than a normal Muslim who to commanded to Forgive other’s.

Allah (Swt) has mentioned Forgiveness at many instant’s in Qur’an and you must be knowing that. So much so that one of his attributes is “Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”.

And as one place is Hadith Qudsi I guess it should be where Prophet said Allah (Swt) has made his Mercy prevail over his anger.

Agniveer had faced lot of problem’s on this issue regarding Ishwars incapability of forgiving sin’s and he gives logic that if you get diabities, you will not get better by a mere sorry but has to go through treatment. 1. Agniveer is just giving a wrong allegory here. The Correct example here should be when a Child make mistakes, does not his teacher’s and parent’s forgive him on a mere sorry. Now, I don’t know about Agniveer’s parent’s but my parent’s love me very much.

This is not the only place where Ishwar faces problems. According to Arya samaj he is incapable to do everything, he is not all powerful (all powerful is a different thing for them) and so on.

And when we ask for reason’s they started posing invalid arguments like Can God die Can God create other God Can God become sleep

Anyway, these invalid Question where answered almost a 1000 year’s before and Pagan’s where the first group to start it.

Sister Aiza I think Full incident should be mentioned in order to refute pagan -rajk.hyd on Qur’an 2:54 By Quoting the tafseer you made work for me easier. You Quoted ibn kateer’s tafseer

The story further Continues as After this happened, the very next two verses say:

And [recall] when you said, “O Moses, we will never believe you until we see Allah outright”; so the thunderbolt took you while you were looking on. Then We revived you after your death that perhaps you would be grateful. (Surah Baqarah, verse 55-56)

These two verses summarize an incident after the incident of the calf, during which Musa (alayhi salaam) took around 70 of Bani Israeel’s leaders to an appointmed meeting place with Allah, where they demanded to see Allah directly (which is something impossible in dunya). You can understand this as a statement of argumentation or something like disbelief; Allah seized them with a lightning bolt.

Ibn Katheer then mentions:

As-Suddi says: (But you were seized with a bolt of lightning) saying; “They died, and Musa stood up crying and supplicating to Allah, `O Lord! What should I say to the Children of Israel when I go back to them after You destroyed the best of them.

(If it had been Your will, You could have destroyed them and me before; would You destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones among us)’ Allah revealed to Musa that these seventy men were among those who worshipped the calf. Afterwards, Allah brought them back to life one man at a time, while the rest of them were watching how Allah was bringing them back to life. That is why Allah’s said,

(Then We RAISED YOU UP AFTER YOUR DEATH , so that you might be grateful.) Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said, “Death was their punishment, and THEY WERE RESURRECTED after they died so they could finish out their lives.” Qatadah said similarly.

So if our Hindu pagan agrees with the story He has to believe also that they were RESURRECTED.

1. God is not everywhere and if you claim otherwise then tell IS ISHWAR in toilet Is He in murderer, rapist, robber.

God being Holy and pure should be somewhere which is pure.

And logically God being everywhere is impossible. I suggest you seeing Atheist Arguments on God being everywhere is a poor theory and can be only refuted by what we say.

He is the originator of skies and the earth (Qur’an)

And not who is everywhere. And why should be Everywhere?

God can’t be beyond space and time if he is everywhere.

2. You said, in Islam you can’t see God. Problem with you’re claim Have you seen God? Have any Hindu seen?

No Vision can grasp him but his grasp is over all vision’s (Qur’an 6:103)

But on the day of Yawm-Al Qiyama God will give his righteous servant’s the ability to see him.

3. God spoke to every Prophet and many other’s, you’re knowledge about Islam is very weak. To Moses pbuh Lord spoke directly and with other’s through some agent. What was funny about it you as a Hindu Pagan may tell.

3. You used deceit as you are a PAGAN and it’s expected. You said You can thank Allah(Swt) by just lip service. Although Qur’an clearly says Perform righteousness, Exhort people to truth, Exhort people to patience and percievence (Qur’an Al-Asr verse 3). Qur’an tells to pay 2.5% of you’re income to poor and needy ” Zakat” (Qur’an 2:3) There are many, I can’t write all. You are a just a PAGAN Hindu.

Muslim’s are most thankful people. We thank God atleast 100 time’s a day. I said ATLEAST as we recite Al-Fatiha 5 time’s in every Rakat

Qur’an 1:2-7 Praise be to God, the Lord of the world’s. Most Gracious, Dispenser of Grace. Master of day of Judgement. Thee alone we worship and thee alone we ask for aid. Show us the Straight path. The path of those whom you have favoured nor of those who incurred your displeasure or of…

soul has birth and no death – this is what you believe…. tell me your point here. Tomorrow if some one say soul has death but no birth will you accept?

ZAKIR Naik says soul has birth and death… stay in jannah is not forever.. openly he said so. Will you accept?

2. Now God spoke to moses is a big flaw in your concept. God is beyond all senses ear (cannot hear), eyes (cannot see him), skin(can’t touch him), toungue (cannot taste him) and nose(no smell of him)…. Also he is beyond mind (imagination)…. Who said this ? not me ,not quran but the Holy Vedas….

So God assumed forms for our sake. Many Hindu devotees (PBUT) have seen God(Durga, Vishnu,Shiva).. They don’t lie.

But you muslims says we can’t see him but can hear him…. Quran does not say Allah made Moses hear some sound but clearly says God spoke to Moses. I can’t keep laughing

3. Is God is toilet??? Yes so says Hinduism….Only if toilet exists though. We believe that God alone is absolute truth!!! God alone is existant…. Universe is maya or illusion. Even space and time is non existant. You can’t keep God in a place like Jannat…. Then he is in toilet and jahannum and in Saudi Arabia too

It is not like you are in your house….You cannot be fully present in all rooms.But God is present in all rooms fully.

God is present in living room fully, bedroom fully…But there are no two Gods. Only one absolute reality. Part of God is whole- Purnamada purnamadam purnat ……..

conceousness of all is one .That is Brahmam (GOD)…. That is individual soul as well …Hinduism is absolute monism not “monotheism”

An-Nasa’i, Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim recorded Ibn `Abbas saying, “Allah told the Children of Israel that their repentance would be to slay by the sword every person they meet, be he father or son. They should not care whom they kill. Those were guilty whom Musa and Harun were not aware of their guilt, they admitted their sin and did as they were ordered. So Allah forgave both the killer and the one killed.” This is part of the Hadith about the trials that we…

1. God in islam lives in jannat ;sits in a throne above 7 heavens. while Hindus believe God is present everywhere omnipresent ; both microcosm and macrocosm. God is beyond space time

Having said this, Vedanta also says universe is illusion. soul of humans (jiva) =soul of paramatma (soul of Vishnu,Durga or shiva) = ParaBrahmam(GOD). it is similar to holy spirit concept in X’tianity

so idols have Dugra,Vishnu,Shiva not Brahmam…Brahmam is everywhere ; not just in idols.

Using maya(illusion) or prakriti (nature) God assumes many forms.

Now you cannot see Allah per islam,but you can talk to him. Allah spake with Moses (Musanabi) LOL

Mere lip service is enough in islam..just says Allah I thank you for giving me life… Say Allah I worship thee creater of worlds. No need to concentrate on GOD. you can’t concentrate on Brahmam. I mean unrealized souls like us …So you need to worship Shiva, Vishnu, Durga

Now islam says soul is born when you are born (say april 3 2001) but soul will not die and stays in hell forever (for hindus only LOL)

my question is if there is birth then there is death….think through….. our soul has no death or birth.

1. God in islam lives in jannat ;sits in a throne above 7 heavens. while Hindus believe God is present everywhere omnipresent both microcosm and macrocosm. God is beyond space time

Having said this, Vedanta also says universe is illusion. soul of humans (jiva) =soul of paramatma (soul of Vishnu,Durga or shiva) = ParaBrahmam(GOD). it is similar to holy spirit concept in X’tianity

so idols have Dugra,Vishnu,Shiva not Brahmam…Brahmam is everywhere ; not just in idols.

Using maya(illusion) or prakriti (nature) God assumes many forms.

Now you cannot see Allah per islam,but you can talk to him. Allah spake with Moses (Musanabi) LOL

Mere lip service is enough in islam..just says Allah I thank you for giving me life… Say Allah I worship thee creater of worlds. No need to concentrate on GOD. you can’t concentrate on Brahmam. I mean unrealized souls like us …So you need to worship Shiva, Vishnu, Durga

Now islam says soul is born when you are born (say april 3 2001) but soul will not die and stays in hell forever (for hindus only LOL)

my question is if there is birth then there is death….think through….. our soul has no death or birth.

Idol worship is no ways incorrect because Vedic scriptures clearly says nature is the manifestation of god. God is formless and omnipresent which makes him present in an idol too. If a idol worship is done wit full faith and submission it is true worship. Read this eye opening blog where reference from scriptures are taken to prove beyond doubt tat idol worship is absolutely finehttp://www.rockingbaba.com/blog/index.php/2015/08/08/significance-of-temple-and-idol-worship/

maybe what god intends from all of us is to understand the spirit of the belief system in which we all believe and follow it loyally…..that might be the test

lets say i am right…..i follow my religion in the best way i can and u follow your religion in the best way u can……then regardless of whether there is hell or heaven……regardless of reincarnation, we both will achieve the final goal in life (whatever that maybe)….whats judged about you might be that whether u followed quran to the best of your understanding and whether i followed my understanding to the best of my capability

so if u do think idol worship is wrong….then u r expected not to do it (as one amongst the criteria)

but if i don’t think that usage of idol is not wrong…..then i may be judged via other criteria

quran itslef says that certain of its verses have ambigious meanings and that its meaning may not be fully appreciated straight away…….maybe there are things not fully revelaed to you (as yet)

IF you still insist on ……GOD CANNOT BE VAGUE…IF HE HAS SAID SOMETHING IT HAS TO BE 100% correct MY response: go back to my christianity vs islam argument…….seriously god cannot be a judge regarding awarding us eternal heaven or hell……based upon our interpretation skill……the scriptures provided by god has done enough to confuse even the most intelligent amonst us….for a person to choose between christianity or islam they have to go by interpretation skill…..i have found that some people interpret the same verses of both scriptures differently…….god has done it…….and only my holistic view can explain this difference !

You asked about “how do we reconciliate? And u specified about heaven hell idol worship reincarnation etc!

Before going to that, let me remind you that there are intelligent men in many religions…..buddhists , sikh, christianity, islam jewish and hinduism.

lets leave out jews (i don’t know much about them)

among the major religions…..christianity and islam talks about exclusivity….multiple intelligent same men can be seen advocating about either of them?

there will be many who can “explain” why theirs is the right one…….and i am yet to see a debate where one could convince another expert……people like ZN could make it look like he has made a victory….but how many experts can he really convice……vice versa for chrisitianity too….it too has experts and it too has failed to convince another expert

Both religions claim…..read our scriptures…..it is 100% scientific…..and our s is truth……yet noone has decisive victory against the other……

Point is….which one is correct or whether atleast one of them correct is a matter of high degree of “analysis”…..and god will decide your fate based on ones analytical skill?, a task the most intelligent from our race seem to fail?

i find that too much to ask for……add to this equation the eastern religions….the equation becomes more complex….but happily the eastern religions don’t vouch for exclusivity (eventhough certain fanatic fools who don’t read scriptures may think otherwise)

now coming back to your question….. 1)hinduism has heaven and hell and later on reincarnation9thats the holistic view) 2)as for no idol usage in worship……we do have that sort amonst us……the arya samaj for example

now the differences u speak off (i know islam as u interpret has no reincarnation)……these come later-don’t they? who knows….whether there is going to be reincarnation or not….we will not be finding it out during our life on earth

i know that quran says about 4 named scriptures and then mentions that several others were sent to different parts of the world from time to time……but the lack of acknowledgement by name is indeed a big negative factor

” It doesn’t matter, how many number of adherents does a religion had. ”

maybe its like that for you…..but when we hindu’s look at it…..quran (as you muslims project it to be )is making an exclusive claim….”my way or the highway”……..quran talks about jesus and how he was falsely being believed to be a god-and yet no mention about hinduism despite it having a significant number is ……and we are supposed to leave all our scriptures and ancestoral beliefs……for a book that can’t claim to be “even acknowledging us…..let alone answer our questions”…..thats too much!

what are our questions u might ask? ans: well first of all…..the new book will have to address our vedic and gita knowledge and our scriptures…..before it can appeal to the majority

most of us indeed worship the one and only all powerful creator god…..which we might call with different names….i heard u guys do the same too…..u have 99 names for allah if i am not mistaken?we both claim to worship ultimately the same entity…..and i have to still discard everything?

yes….not addressing buddhists is also a negative

as for hinduism….since our scriptures do not advocate for exclusivity…..we don’t thing its an issue that our scriptures do not address other religions……our scriptures talk about improving oneself spiritually…..do not really go into stuff like what abrahaminc religions do…in other words hinduism does not advocate for followers!

its the ones who needs to advocate would want to convince other religions

1. God in islam lives in jannat ;sits in a throne above 7 heavens. while Hindus believe God is present everywhere omnipresent both microcosm and macrocosm. God is beyond space time

Having said this, Vedanta also says universe is illusion. soul of humans (jiva) =soul of paramatma (soul of Vishnu,Durga or shiva) = ParaBrahmam(GOD). it is similar to holy spirit concept in X’tianity

so idols have Dugra,Vishnu,Shiva not Brahmam…Brahmam is everywhere ; not just in idols.

Using maya(illusion) or prakriti (nature) God assumes many forms.

Now you cannot see Allah per islam,but you can talk to him. Allah spake with Moses (Musanabi) LOL

Mere lip service is enough in islam..just says Allah I thank you for giving me life… Say Allah I worship thee creater of worlds. No need to concentrate on GOD. you can’t concentrate on Brahmam. I mean unrealized souls like us …So you need to worship Shiva, Vishnu, Durga

Now islam says soul is born when you are born (say april 3 2001) but soul will not die and stays in hell forever (for hindus only LOL)

my question is if there is birth then there is death….think through….. our soul has no death or birth.

See we roughly became 1/3 of current population by just moving 45 year’s back.

If we took same average(keeping in mind all Indians are not hindus) We reach Indian population before 1400 year’s to be 1-2 LAKH PEOPLE Maybe 1 LAKH OF THEM WOULD BE HINDUS

And I don’t understand why L-rd should mention people by seeing number of adherents first. Although it’s quite possible that there number would have been greater than Hindus. But it doesn’t matter.

And story of Thamud , Ad and Lut could have also been mentioned because L-rd destroyed their entire nation.

Even archaeological evidences agree that there existed some people Like Ad and Thamud. They even found Noah’s arc and they completely agree that there was a Universal flood which has came a long ago.

Pharoun, Now this guy claimed to be God and was of King of Egypt of time.

When he died he was buried but the LAND THROW HIM OUT OF IT. HE was burnt but fire THROW HIM OUT. He was thrown in WATER BUT WATER RETURNED HIM BACK.

And his body thereafter was lost.

Allah (swt) mentioned that his body will be found and today we have his body. It’s in a museum, I guess I Egypt and if you see video’s on you tube. You will see even today his nails grow etc etc( punishment from the L-rd)

AND L-rd made him a sign till the day of judgement for those who rejects the signs of Most Merciful, Exalted in Might, The All Powerful.

“In India, we see the beginning of theoretical speculation of the size and nature of the earth. Some one thousand years before Aristotle, the Vedic Aryans asserted that the earth was round and circled the sun. A translation of the Rig Veda goes: ” In the prescribed daily prayers to the Sun we find..the Sun is at the center of the solar system. ..The student ask, “What is the nature of the entity that holds the Earth? The teacher answers, “Rishi Vatsa holds the view that the Earth is held in space by the Sun.” – Dick Teresi in Lost Discoveries: The Ancient Roots of Modern Science–from the Babylonians to the Maya pages 238-239

“The Sun does never set nor rise. When people think the Sun is setting (it is not so). For after having arrived at the end of the day it makes itself produce two opposite effects, making night to what is below and day to what is on the other side…Having reached the end of the night, it makes itself produce two opposite effects, making day to what is below and night to what is on the other side. In fact, the Sun never sets….”- Aitareya Brahmana (3.44). This shows that the earth is spherical. Source: Hindu Wisdom – Advanced_Concepts

Carl Sagan on Hindu Cosmology:

“The Hindu religion is the only one of the world’s great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths… It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, no doubt by accident, to those of modern scientific cosmology

@Jazib regarding number of Hindu’s at the time of quran Response: as of today the number of Hindu’s in the world is about 16% of world population…the ones in front are islam and christianity

Christinaity spread throughout the world in two stages….first was within Europe (roughly from 5th century to 15 th century)….and to the rest of the world after that

So, it would not take too much maths to deduce that the proprtion of Hindu’s at the time of quran had to be even higher than 16% and with islam being out of the picture, and people following multiple small small religions , hinduism or sanatan dharma should have occupied the second place…..if we consider the fact that christianity spread throughout the world much later…..i would not be surprised if hinduism was indeed the biggest religion at that time

Its not only quran….but previous abrahamic scriptures like Torah,Zabur , BIBLE etc too are mum about Hinduism or other eastern religions !!!

Quran too like these other books speaks about the same prophets, same incidents and same people albeit in a different angle……Anyone who puts a thought into these things can understand the implications……i don’t want to state it explicitly……because those statements will be subjected to my prejudices…..so let others draw implications from these facts…i just want to point out one important implication though:

“Given that the quran and bible being totally silent about hinduism and their gods(whereas quran is not silent about most incidents in other abrahamic religions), and then to then infer that the lord made a book for us revealed in a faraway country in which there is absolutely nothing about us (or any of the eastern religions for that matter) is totally nonsense”

Hindu’s philosophy on the other hand offers methods to reoncile with other religions though….so we don’t need to be confused…..but to think that lords wants us to change despite our reconciliating philosphies…

I have checked. In most of the religious scriptures it is definitely written that “इश्‍वर एक है और न कोई उसका रूप है और न ही रंग वो सिर्फ प्रकाश या नूर हैा ” But it is not writtent that ” मूर्ती पूजा नहीं करनी चाहिये ” or it is crime to do idol worship. In Sanatan Dharma, No where it is written that you should not worship idol or symbolic worship is prohibited. It is a belief that idols or symbols are just to connect with the GOD ” ईश्‍वर तक सम्‍पर्क का जरिया है” Actually, most religions believe to link supreme GOD with “some kind of symbols, signs, pictures, place, direction or materialistik things” Including Muslims !! In fact Muslims link most strongly the symbols/signs/materials to GOD and this belief is evident in their reactions. Just eaxample > When someone made a cartoon calling it prof Mohammad, — basically it was a piece of paper and some ink, just like any other ordinary cartoon/picture. Why did all the muslims link it to true picture of prof.Mohammad. If muslims truely believe in no picture/no symbol of GOD/or prof Mohammad. The whole community of muslims should have ignored it, terming it as just some other picture or ordinary cartoon. > Just because some stupid fellow called a cartoon as prof Mohammad, everyone believed it and jumped on reacting as if it was true picture of prof Mohammad !! > If Muslims don’t believe in symbolic worship, then why were they so religiously offended? They should infact say that no one can make true picture of Prof Mohammad, So there is no need to get offended. Therefore Muslims are strong believer of symbolic worship and they link it to religious feeling immediately.

@jazib. i hv responded to your arguments on atharva veda6/77/1 issue(rishi talks of earth/heaven and then on horses) i hv seen your comments are logically flawed n have discussed that also. go read that. also i hv responded on “earth supported by bull ” issue and “earth/heaven supported by pilla acc. to Veda” issue also. i hv seen your claims groundless and have responed to that.

I knew u would use the arguemnt that the lord would not mention each religion in detail…..that is why I said Hinduism would have had a very sizeable population at that time…..Considering that Islam and Christianity spread all over the world much later……I would think that it is possible that it was even the biggest religion by sheer number at that time

Even today….its third in size in the world….and at that time it would have to be even better placed….second or even first…..considering that other religion were pretty localised ones

Seriously are you trying to say that people of thamud, ad or lut were larger in number than the total no:of Hindus’ at that time?

-Saroj 1. The interpretation of word is totally correct in both senses. You can also check world’s best Arabic dictionaries to like Lisan AL Arab and it is what Qur’an tells and we believe. Scholars don’t interpret is how it like. 2. To Check what type of idolators exist In Arabia that time you can check IBN SAD, MUSNAD IBN HANBAL, ISAAC recordings and of other’s of that time with regard to the latter. 3. You said with regards to Jesus. And I agree that Hinduism must have atleast a great population at that time. First Jesus (peace be upon him) was being talked because HE WAS THE PROPHET OF GOD WHOSE FOLLOWERS MISTOOK HIM THAT HE CLAIMED DIVINITY. And that’s why he will come again to this earth. But that’s a different story.

Regarding Hinduism : There are scholars of Hinduism who sat that early followers of Hinduism believed in one God and didn’t worshipped idols. But TO BE HONEST THESE SCHOLARS ARE IN MINORITY as most scholars claim otherwise.

But still then there are 600+ religion’s in world who believe in idolatry. I guess number is even bigger as some worship water, fire etc also.

So now L-rd will not mention each one of them one by one. Especially at that time there were some additional religion like BABYLONIANS.

SO L-rd just said it is wrong and mentioned important one’s of them like PEOPLE OF AD, THAMUD, LUT, PEOPLE OF PHARAONS TIME whi have will teach us lessons regarding this.

So L-rd knows what to mention and what not to. That’s why only main part are given.

Like for instance, read the story of PROPHET ABHRAHAM (peace be upon him). You see how he made people of his time believe that idolatry is wrong. You can read his story in Qur’an. I request you it’s very beautiful.

God through the idol….i don’t think so……People of that time (pre-Islamic; ie prior to Muhammed, like Egyptians, pre-islamic Arabs etc) used idols and they all thought the idols they used had special powers……thats my knowledge

But does quran actually prohibit worshipping the creator god through idols, thinking about god alone, ascribing no special power to god?

One question then……as you yourself has agreed…there are multiple meaning for both the words…RUJZA and MABOOD….you say idol is the second meaning for both(and I think its a post-quran meaning; not original Arabic)…..and the verses using these words have been interpreted by Muslim scholars differently

So eventhough all Muslim scholars may say that Islam is against idolatory…..not all Muslim scholars would TRANSLATE the concerned verses as being about idols

Now shirk is the biggest sin in Islam……therefore associating partners with Allah or in your words idolatory would be the biggest sin……why is then that, quran is not overtly explicit about using idols? Why did those parts concerning idolatory somewhat “less explicit”?

One more qn…and i will be surprised if u can answer this with clarity

“The quran mentions about Jesus in detail and how people (wrongly) took him to be a god and all that…..NOW AT THE TIME of Muhammed, Hinduism would have been the biggest religion on the surface of the earth(if but nothing…..it should have a very sizeable population)…why is quran silent about gods in Hinduism(polytheists is a general term)?It could have said people of sanatan dharma wrongly considers krishna as god-but he is a myth!!!!…

Narrated Abu Huraira: “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “I have been sent with Jawami al-Kalim (i.e., the shortest expression carrying the widest meanings),and I was made victorious with awe (caste into the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the earth were brought to me and were put in my hand.” Muhammad said, Jawami’-al-Kalim means that Allah expresses in one or two statements or thereabouts the numerous matters that used to be written in the books revealed before (the coming of) the Prophet. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Interpretation of Dreams, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 141)”

Islam maybe…..but quran does not debunk worshipping Allah through idols……your usage of the word “Allah” itself is an idol to begin with……

Response: It does clearly. You just need to look at it. L-rd doesn’t like any thing should come between his servant and him. I tell you to do more research.

As for quran being against idol worship….I am not all that sure

Response: It is. MABOOD and RUJZ both answers this Question.

You see ….you say that the word rujza and Maboob means idol (as one amongst the meanings)…..yet when i look at translated verses, i see people interpreting it differently…..which suggests that “uncleanliness/pollution” is the original Arabic meaning….ands “idol” is at most an additional meaning…

Response : That’s because Qur’an has verses which has more than one meaning. Qur’an has two types of verses 1. Entirely clear 2. Having multiple interpretation I will SHOW THAT LATER.

As far as RUJZ

Qur’an 74:5

Muhsin Khan: And keep away from Ar-Rujz (the IDOLS )!

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri: And keep away from the IDOLS (and sins as usual).

Bijan Moeinian: And avoid IDOL worshipping.

Faridul Haque: And stay away from IDOLS.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah: and flee from the STATUES!

Muhammad Ahmed – Samira: And the paganism/IDOLworship/sin , so abandon.

It is clear from the passage.

Now multiple interpretation.

Qur’an 3:7 He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses – which constitute the essence of the scripture – as well as MULTIPLE-MEANING or ALLEGORICAL VERSES.

Even PROPHET MUHAMMAD PBUH told about this

Narrated Abu Huraira: “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “I have been sent with Jawami al-Kalim (i.e., the shortest expression carrying the widest meanings),and I was made victorious with awe (caste into the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the earth were brought to me and were put in my hand…

-Saroj See when you try to give your own interpretation you will find such things.

You said : Where did anybody tell that Hindu’s think that the idol is god in the first place? In the example of the “mother’s portrait” also I tried to say the same thing So who was it that ever said that Hindu’s consider the idol as god?

Response: Did you read my answer. I said still they believe THAT GOD CAN BE WORSHIPPED through idol.

Now this medium is also included in MABOOD. MABOOD refers to IDOL or any other medium or associating any other thing. This is what Qur’an say. What Prophet Muhammad pbuh demonstrated. What Sahabas Recorded. What Tabeens learned. What Tibet Tabeens preached and we are witness to it.

None of them worshipped Allah through any medium/idol. Did they???

Because it’s clear from Qur’an. Now you can’t claim you understood better than them especially when Qur’an debunks it.

In Arabic there were 2 types of idolators. 1. Who believed God hasn’t time for us, so he had made other IDOLS for us so that they may hear what we want. 2. Who Worshipped God through Idol.

Qur’an debunks both. Weren’t all the idols broken of those who worshipped it and who worshipped through it.

But thats fine by me….you can believe whatever u want to believe….but if u can just think…….would u be so confident, had u read quran with no pre-conditioning, and no priming and no prejudices of any kind

Anyways…its ok by me (Hindu’s in general)…afterall many Hindu’s perform god worship without idols of any kind

But one thing I am sure…..its that quran doesn’t negate usage of idols as just a medium….it doesn’t touch this speciffic concept……no population in Arabia or pagans were known to practice this form of worship…..and neither does the quran mentions this specific form…….and if u include, it in the umbrella term….of “uncleanliness” and ” associating partners with Allah”…..it amounts to adding your own interpretations !!!!

“We Muslims never needed any idol to concentrate. Visit any Masjid and see yourself. ”

I know….many Hindu’s too do not use idols…..but as told to u earlier (i don’ t think u caught this earlier)…….for a Hindu….its not about using idols or not using an idol……even the ones using idols at many times worship without idols…….its just that for us WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT is how deep our worship IS !

And I know the following statement may look like self admiration or boasting however i out this(but believe there is none intended): we idol using Hindu’s believe we do a much better deeper praying than ones who do not use idols ……Afterall the aim of praying is to attach to god (and its not a false god..i mean the creator god, the actual god) and being able to be less attached to material comforts….

(And this is exactly what was mentioned in that BG verse I posted earlier)

-Vijay made my work easier by accepting that IDOL IS NOT THE GOD ITSELF neither is it image of God.

Therefore we don’t worship it simple. We Muslims never needed any idol to concentrate. Visit any Masjid and see yourself.

You said RUJZ means unclealiness. It has two meanings both pollution and IDOLS. So here I am also justified.

You said we don’t worship idols like pre-islamic Arabs but YOU CONSIDER IDOL to be a medium still. That’s what’s called ” associating partners MABOOD” Idol المعبود

7)You say there are multiple verses-where r they? IS there even an ARABIC WORD FOR IDOL?

Response: MABOOD refers to both ” idol” or setting partners. I always laugh at these arguments when HINDUS pretend to know Arabic. Anyway ISLAM debunks every type of idol worship whether it be WORSHIPPING IDOL OR WORSHIPPING THROUGH IDOL.

Do you know CHRISTIANS BELIEVED IN 1 GOD BUT MADE IDOL OF IT. Still they were called idolators. So was the case with some Jews.

“Vijay made my work easier by accepting that IDOL IS NOT THE GOD ITSELF neither is it image of God. ”

Where did anybody tell that Hindu’s think that the idol is god in the first place? In the example of the “mother’s portrait” also I tried to say the same thing So who was it that ever said that Hindu’s consider the idol as god? Ans: It was you who said that…..you put forward the argument…..and when pointed out the truth, you just backtracked

NOW HAVINGESTABLISHED that Hindu’s do not consider the idol as god….and that the “mothers portrait” is not really the mother…the question arises…..inspite of mother’s portrait not being the mother, WE STILL USE A PORTRAIT -don’t we?

Its the same analogy with the idols…we knows its not god…..we even know….its not how god looks like……yet we use it as a medium….thats all

Is it that the shape doesn’t match god is what causing you problem? Our view: We don’t think that the shape is matching god to begin with. The four arms of VISHNU that u may have seen is nothing but symbolism….to express the view that god controls multiple activities(creation, nurtuturing etc etc)…..Hindu’s don’t believe that there is a four armed god looking like a man lying in a actual ocean of milk

Also to remeber that two idols need not even look alike

“Anyway ISLAM debunks every type of idol worship whether it be WORSHIPPING IDOL OR WORSHIPPING THROUGH IDOL. ”

Islam maybe…..but quran does not debunk worshipping Allah through idols……your usage of the word “Allah” itself is an idol to begin with……

As for quran being against idol worship….I am not all that sure

You see ….you say that the word rujza and Maboob means idol (as one amongst the meanings)…..yet when i look at translated verses, i see people interpreting it differently…..which suggests that “uncleanliness/pollution” is the original Arabic meaning….ands “idol” is at most an additional meaning…

-Verse 4.116, 4.48-all say similar things-no partners for ALLAH …..and people “interpreted” the “no partners for Allah” to be about idols

Response: you basic knowledge of Islam is weak rather I would say very weak

Qur’an 74:5 And keep away from Ar-Rujz (the idols)

There are 2 interpretations of it 1. Worship anyone besides One true God 2. Using idols Both ways we are associating something with God. Quranic verses say in many places against idols, I don’t know on what basis are you saying this.

At last you Quoted verses regarding don’t worship anyone besides me BUT THERE ARE VERSES AGAINST IDOLS ALSO LIKE THE ONE I QUOTED.

And Bhagwat gita contradicts vedas which even agniveer admits. Thus we should look at top source and interpret other scriptures with that perspective.

1)swami daayanand saraswati (DS fr short) is not the ultimate authorit. He will not even be considered as ultimate to interpret the VEDAS. (more on that later) 2)My points about Hinduism is based on scriptural knowledge. You are welcome to ask qn if u have any; but quoting swami DS as authority-will not work! You can quote either the VEDAS OR UPANISHADS OR BHAGAVAD GITA. If I know the answer I will answer. I am not an expert though. Else you may opt not to discuss Hinduism (whichever uits u) 3)The simple truth is that idol worship is not at all there in VEDAS. Swami DS advocates not to use idols based on “lack of mentioning of idols in VEDAS.”. But, if idol worship is not to be done-it should be there within the scripture. That argument by DS is fallacious–clarified by lot many other experts elsewhere ! 4)Your statement:”But that MOTHERS PICTURE IS NOT THE MOTHER ITSELF(this is enough to refute you)” My Response: Sorry to say….rather than refuting me….u said the exact same point supporting me……the picture of your mother is not the mother itslef……I AM ALSO SAYING THE SAME THING…..Similarly the idol of the god IS NOT GOD……yet we use portraits of our elders and it is in a similar fashion that HIndu’s use idols

5)Your statement: “Do you know how GOD LOOK LIKE?? God’s image can’t be replaced by anything” My Response: When did I say otherwise…..Hindu’s do not think that the idol is the god nor that god looks like the idol

6)Now regarding quran and idol. I had given multiple verses from quran that people quotes to be verses against quran-which are anti-idols only via interpretations.. You quoted two verses to condemn idol worship Q16.20 has already been shown by me to be anti-idols only by interpretation…then u quoted al-rujza (quran 74.5). Here again it becomes anti-idol only via interpretaion. Al-rujza means “and uncleanliness”

7)You say there are multiple verses-where r they? IS there even an ARABIC WORD FOR IDOL?

I think when u were introduced to ISLAM….you were told first off not to use idols and then when u see these verses, you may not feel the need to question

I am still open to an answer….if u r knowledgable enough, explain your stand

and is there even an arabic for idols?

do u know what this means ?المعبود

I know that preISLAM did practice actual idol worship…considering idols as god……but thats very different from HINDUISM

8)Regarding swami DS and Bhagawad Gita (BG for short) There are no contradictions between VEDAS and BG because Vedas do not even talk about idols, let alone prohibit it. And if u didn’t know it before:plz know that BG is considered as the essence of Vedas. It is considered so because all messages within BG has a basis from the Vedas.

9)IF you must who is the authority over scriptures in HINDUISM-the answer is god himsef/in other words lord krishna(because krishna is the concept in which i like to percieve god)…….and next in Ved Vyasa himself……it is Ved Vyasa who wrote the BG and it is he himslef who had “arranged” the Vedas. Surely Ved Vyasa must be considered as a more comPetent authority over Vedas than any swami DS

-Jyotish Vijay Your arguments doesn’t justify anything. Do you claim you understood VEDAS BROTHER THAT DAYANAND. Anyway if you do I will just address your Questions.

Your posts shwo your stubborness in not trying to think out of the box “Can a 50 rupees image replace GOD?”

To answer that…..think whether: don’t people use large portraits or photographs of their loved ones(esp ones who have passed away…say for eg-of your mother)

Response: But that MOTHERS PICTURE IS NOT THE MOTHER ITSELF(this is enough to refute you) but I will tell you. Do you know how GOD LOOK LIKE?? God’s image can’t be replaced by anything.

AFTER THAT YOU ELABORATED YOUR POINT with which I have no concern as it’s still wrong. Then you said about some MOTHER story. Anyway we don’t worship it and it’s not the mother still.

NOW does your quran really say that idol worship is not be done? I doubt it..!

Response : Absolutely. The best person who understood Qur’an was Prophet Muhammad pbuh, he said the same.

BUT before that …a point is to be noted here: There are several places in Quran where it is implied that people at that time used the consider the idol or an image to be their god….which has been stated as wrong by several others

Response: Really! Qur’an says keep away from AR-RUJZ(Idols) but I am desperate to see what you wanna tell.

Many verses i came across earlier were at best only indirect (hence inconclusive) For eg: verse 29:25, 29:17, and 14:35 -all were sort of discussions betweeen two people

Response:This is what prophet was told to tell. You should have read from 1st verse. Consider verse 10 of sura 29 you will analyse what you failed to analyse and then read from that.

same goes for verses: 12:106, 31:13, 4:48 etc etc……in all thise verses the verse really don’t talk about “idols”…..its just that “idol” has been interpreted into the verse

Same is the case with the VEDAS……the Vedas do not prohibit idol worship……it doesn’t even consider the topic of usage of “idols”

its only wishful re-interpretaation by certain vested interests that interpret verses like “na tasya pratima asti…” in a wrong manner to state that vedas are against idol worship…….in fact vedas at few places even touch upon the concpet of form of god (saakar ishwar)

I had already posted those verses here months back……

FINALLY there is one religious scripture that clears the confusion unambiguously…..u hear it…unambigously…..read these verses and see how clearly….unamnibously it takes about this issue…….unlike quran which can have multiple interpretations(to clarify….i don’t think its the qurans fault…its the readers fault….but bhagavad gita is way too clear)…see this

BHAGAVAD GITA chapter 12 verses 1 to 4

Arjuna inquired: Which is considered to be more perfect: those who are properly engaged in Your devotional service, or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested? KRISHNA said: He whose mind is fixed on My personal form, always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith, is considered by MeTO BE MOST PERFECT. But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, fixed, and immovable-the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth (ALLAH for u)-by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all,AT LAST ACHIEVE ME. For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progrese in that discipline is always difficult for those who…

-Saroj Alain Fallacy has been committed God’s word is not God itself God’s word is GOD’S CREATION. THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE TWO.

YOU again repeated “those aspects of God head” which I answered no aspect of God head can be represented by his creation.

Moreover, the Creation designee by Human being. When human being can’t comprehend aspects of God head but still in your case you represent an infinite God head’s aspect by an finite thing.

You said we can concentrate without idols which is not true. If it was so then why do you need Idols at first place to Concentrate.

Atlast you said that I never said God is everywhere. I wish to give you a screen shot of your Google + account where you said God is everywhere and when the other Guy told you is then he in toilet, you said IN THAT WAY NO!

@jazib my point was that God’s word can be bought is the representation of an aspect of Godhead(perceivable aspect) is bought .

i told you God is all encompassing and all pervasive thus Godhead has aspects that are at a perceivable level to us. you said:”When human being can’t comprehend aspects of God head but still in your case you represent an infinite God head’s aspect by an finite thing.” yes we cant comprehend GOD COMPLETERLY, but there are aspects of Godhead that are perceivable to us.what is represented is NOT AN INFINITE GOD COMEPLETELY, but only those aspects that are perceivable to us. since God is all encmpassing and all pervasive as per hinduism ,God is infinite, but he has aspects of Godhead that are perceivable to us.only those aspects are represented by forms.I AM NOT REPRESENTING THE WHOLE INFINITUDE OF GODHEAD BY A MERE FORM, BUT ONLY A PERCEIVABLE ASPECT OF GODHEAD BY FORMS.

we dont need an idol,that i said in the beginning itself, an idol is only a form to fix our mind onto.THE IDOL IS A PHYSCAL PROJECTION OF THE FORM on which we meditate, by decorating the idol and beautifying it with sandalwood paste,agarbathi, lawps,etc,the form gets even more fixed onto our mind,since we directly perceive it. if you dont need an idol for fixing the form at all,then you can fix the form in your mind without beautifying an idol representing the same.

Your posts shwo your stubborness in not trying to think out of the box “Can a 50 rupees image replace GOD?”

To answer that…..think whether: don’t people use large portraits or photographs of their loved ones(esp ones who have passed away…say for eg-of your mother)

Is that 100 rupee portrait or picture your mother……? Is the shape of the woman in the picture your mother? No….yet people use them….similarly….the idols and photos that u see Hindu’s use are not gods….they are only their to improve our devotion to god

Understand this carefully” Muslims take more importance in how they worship…….and to worship and do deeds as outlined in quran……whereas for Hindu’s…….it is how DEEPLY they worship that is important……for achieving this depth they use suitable means that increases their devotion”

Can u understand……..we have one ishwar (paramatma)…who form cannot be understood by us…….and multiple manifestations of that one ishwar….we acknowledge that there is only one ishwar but with multiple means to worship that one ishwar….the means that each individual take depends on his capability and aptitude

It is that same one god and not multiple gods…..we are not worshipping the idols…….

Coming back to the analogy of your mother…..lets suppose she is alive……but the fact is that even when alive its not really the body we worship…..its the soul within……..if for eg…your mother has an accident and her body gets disfigured…i am sure u will feel the same love and respect to your mother despite her body getting changed (scarred)….so the reality the physical body and the idols and the pictures/portraits all mean nothing more than a means to connect to the concept of mother/god…..you may two pictures of your mother-do u then have two mothers…….?

no…its the same one mother

look! in our minds this concept of single god is very clear……we fail to understand why u guys…

NOW does your quran really say that idol worship is not be done? I doubt it..!

BUT before that …a point is to be noted here: There are several places in Quran where it is implied that people at that time used the consider the idol or an image to be their god….which has been stated as wrong by several others

But this is not what other religions practice now…they don’t consider the idol (the stone or the image) to be their god…….they only use the idol to worship the one god…..they don’t worship the idol……..thats a vast difference……and quran refers to the first group(idol worshipers)…..whereas hindu’s are users of idols to worship the same one god

so why do we need idol at all……can we avoid it altogether? ans: as explained by me earlier……for us ……the DEPTH OF OUR WORSHIP is whats more important……because god anyhow has an incomprehensible shape…..so however we worship….its always going to be wrong…..so if god is all knowing and all that…….he would be worried about “did these poorly equipped insignificant humans get my incomprehensible shape right”…..if he is gonna be bothered…..”it willbe about how deeply we worship him?”

so the idol worshippers in the time of quran was whole lot different…..they considered the idol itself to be god

anyways ….i have not come across a verse in quran that DIRECTLY prohibits idol worship

Many verses i came across earlier were at best only indirect (hence inconclusive) For eg: verse 29:25, 29:17, and 14:35 -all were sort of discussions betweeen two people Verse 4.116, 4.48-all say similar things-no partners for ALLAH …..and people “interpreted” the “no partners for Allah” to be about idols

Response :50 rupees? God’s word is free. Wasn’t it revealed free. Did God take any money from People? God’s word is not God is sufficient to answer this. Guidance costs nothing. An idol has to be poured milk everyday and if that milk is given to needy that would be better as Qur’an makes it Clear.

-even if God is his words or not,the question is can his words be bought by 50 rupees.

Response : I said it’s free. Guidance Costs nothing. This foolishness reminds me of a verse of Holy book

Qur’an 2:16-17 16. These are they who have purchased error for guidance, so their commerce was profitless. And they were not guided. 17. Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindled a fire; then, when it lighted all around him, God took away their light and left them in darkness. (So) they could not see.

-you idiot presume only your wods are rights,so you put these astatement”wht kind of reprense os that”,well f you had some brains,you would have understood that these questions were spot on.

Response : It’s you who are a Fool and want’s not to accept reality.

Qur’an 2:11-12 11. And when it is said to them: “Make not mischief on the earth,” they say: “We are only peacemakers.” 12. Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they…

first, God is infinite and is all encpmpassing,thus all the forms are enompassed by him.thus the whole God is not represented by the form,but only perceivable aspect(perceivable to us) is represented by the idol.ishwar/allah has aspects beyond our comprehension,but only those aspects of Godhead tht we can perceive are represented by the form.this enables us to fix our mind on a form and a visual representation of the apects of Godhead.

thus the whole infinitude,with aspects beyond comprehension is not represented by the form.

God’s words are free,as you said to me ji, so you dont need to give fifty rupees for the qur’an.right. then the form representing God,in aspects of Godhead is also free,so we dont need to buy a picture by paying 50 rupees,we can still fix the form in heart.hence your first question,”can you buy God for fifty rupees” is answered here.

next, it is not that i dont want to accept reality or not,i am sure in my oncept of God as an all encompassing and all pervasive being.

i did not confuse anything.i only said that if a picture representing perceivable aspects of Godhead can not be bought,then equally God’s words can’t be brought by the same amount of money.

i told, only those perceivable aspects of Godhead is represeted by the form. id is impossible to represent God fully since Godhead has aspects beyond our comprehention.but,only those aspects of Godhead that is conceivable to us is represented by the form.thus, i did not say Godhead is compley=teley represented and this i tod in the previous comment itself.

only perceivable aspects of Godhead is represented by the form.

also God is all encompassing,thus he encompasses our minds too.thus all the forms that we can think of as representing perceivable aspects of Godhead are also encpompassed by him,as he pervads our minds.thus,we can meditate on a form that represents a perceivable aspect of Godhead since God encompasses that Form too as an aspect of Himself.that is because ,God in hinduism is allencppassing and all pervasive,

coming to concentration ,we meditate/comcentrate on the form represented by the idoleven if the idol is thrown away,we still can meditate o the form.

jazib,you missed the most important point in the above comment of mine: “thus the whole God is not represented by the form,but only perceivable aspect(perceivable to us) is represented by the idol.ishwar/allah has aspects beyond our comprehension,but only those aspects of Godhead tht we can perceive are represented by the form.”

i clearly stated that the whole Godhead is not represented in the form, but only perceivable aspects.those were revealed to our sages.and some can be understood by commen ssense. “

-Agniveer Your post is VERY POOR, I am sorry to say. Not only are you going against your vedas(which condemn’s idol worship) but you are going against the one who you consider to be your mentor, SWAMI DAYANAND SAWASWATI.

Anyway your main points were:

How can anyone in world prove that idol-worship is sin? What is wrong with idol-worship?

Response : Can a 50 rupees image replace GOD? Does that small idol show any IMAGE of GOD? Should we pray to a CREATOR or to a MERE CREATED THING, created by humans.

Qur’an 16:20 As for the idols they set up beside GOD, they do not create anything; they THEMSELVES WERE CREATED .

If I worship idols, if I keep making new and new idols and worship them in new and new ways, what is anybody’s problem?

Response :We don’t bother what you worship. Our duty was just to tell you the truth.

Quran 36:17 “And our duty is only to proclaim the clear Message.”

Quran 16:82 “But if they turn away, thy duty is only to preach the clear Message. ”

Quran 29:18 “But if ye deny, then nations have denied before you. The messenger is only to convey (the message) plainly. ”

Does it cause loose motion in someone? Does it kill someone?

Response : Absolutely not. Your life, you’re choice. You want to go astray you can go. We don’t want to be like you

Qur’an 1:6-7 6 Show us the Straight way 7 The way of those who you have favoured NOR OF THIS WHO INCURRED YOUR DISPLEASURE OR OF THIS WHO WONT ASTRAY

This is what we pray 5 times everyday in BEGINING of every prayer.

Does it rob anyone’s property? Does it rape someone?

Response : RAPE?? Poor mentality May Allah(Swt) bless you and show you light.

the rig veda says “to him is called as agni, vayu,etc…indra, and noble winged garuta”10/164/48 agni is fire,indra has the attributes of thunderbolt,wtc. and noble wingd garutha is the eagle carrier of lord visnu. thus God is ONE but worshipped in many forms.that is what the verse says. the idol is only a projection of the form in which we worship God.

-Saroj What kind of response is this. Instead of Answering you posed a Counter Question. But the flaw was Clear in your Question.

1. No Muslim worships Qur’an

2. God’s word is not God himself

3. God spoke many thing’s

4. God’s word is free for you guy’s if you want to hear as HE loves those who perform righteousness

Qur’an 9:6 And if anyone of the idolaters ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of God; then convey him to his place of security. That is because THEY ARE A PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE.

there isnt any flaw in the question,either you didnt understand it,or your wbke to answer it.

, the pictur is only a form to meditate on,a representation of Godhead ,representing one or few aspects of God head.each form is thus a representation of an aspect of Godhead. if hat repreentation cannt be bought by 50 rupees,then God’s word imprinted on paper cannot be equally bought by fifty rupee,

even if God is his words or not,the question is can his words be bought by 50 rupees.

you idiot presume only your wods are rights,so you put these astatement”wht kind of reprense os that”,well f you had some brains,you would have understood that these questions were spot on.

@Jazib “Jews, Muslims – we never require idols for concentration. Visit any Masjid. So this is a mere excuse. ”

True……but what we are trying to say is that, you are much poor a concentrating than us…..sorry to sound obnoxious……but that is something many people here wanted to say for long……we personally feel that using an idol makes us pray better to the one and only creator indescribabale/incomprehensible god eventhough the idol per se is not god (there is onlyone god…..hence theidol is not god) and eventhough the idol is not in the shape of god

It seems that the Hindu wy of using idols is not something u don’t understand at all……BY DEFINITION, an idol used by Hindu’s is that which aids in prayer to the one and only one god and at the same time is not a (true) representation of god nor is it associating partners with god !!!!!

Its like your word ALLAH…..ALLAH is not really the god…..not even the english word “god” is god (if u know what i mean)……ALLAH is just an Arabic word which u use to connect with god……for us HINDU’s its the word “ishwar”, “paramaatma”, vishnu , shiva or an idol

If i am not mistaken……Allah has allowed muslims some 99 or 100 words(names) to use while referring about god-right? similarly when it comes to hinduism we have been given permission to use a method with which one is comfortable……you can referto allah in any of those names and same is the case with Hinduism

In addition god has also clarified that use of “forms” (saakar ishwar) is easier and is better…..but certain people connect better with nirakar ishwar-they can do so……the path although difficult is the same !

Amazing to see so much pointless debate . The last sentences tell in bold ” I am the greatest champion of Idol-Worship till …..” It implies Agniveer does not support idol worship but will defend the right to worship of idolators. Reminds me of the famous ” I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it” attributed to Voltaire. People who want to reduce Swami Dayananda Saraswati’s contributions to “just an interpretation” should better look into Aurobindo’s explanation of his importance.

The qualities of a kritthartha (one who has achieved success) in aadhyatma shashtra are all things that a saadhaka (learner) should try to acquire, because all those are pathto success.

Meaning if you see Swami DS as a “mahat vyakti”……u must strive to imbibe those qualities that u think your role model was great about.

Sad to note that in your case (and many of other Arya Samaji’s)……you think the most imp teaching of swami DS was “no idol worship”.

I am not going to explain “WHY” again…..but I am telling you …..you are most liekly in a misguided path……..this “no idolworship” thing and everything will come, they have a place…….but your total antagonist attitude towards idol worship will not get you anywhere

You only think u know…..of Swami DS real teachings…..or what is idol worship

Your methhod of blindly following one preacher and intolerance towards his teachings should be modified …….I invite u to go through the teachings of swami Sivanda……..a great proponent of Vedanta…..teacher of many current generation advaita saints !!!!!

If Sripad Adi ShakaraArachrya, Sripad RamanujaAcharya, Sripad MadhvaAcharya, Sripad VallabhAcharya, Sripad Vishnu Swami, Sripad NimbarkaAcharya, Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Srila Jiva Goswami, Sant Tukaram ji Maharaj, all of them accepct the 700 verses of Bhagavad Gita aas authority, all of them accept Deity Worship as authentic, then who are we(born in a age of rampant cow killing), to say no ?

Please do note, the above perons are spotless in character and their behavior and also are widely respected by the Dhiras(sober) and the Adhiras(wild) alike. We all accept that they were not on this planet to cheat us, to misguide us.

Even a small photo of our father, mother, or child evokes such nice feelings of love and respect, what to speak of the authentic Deity of the Lord.

Yes Islam calls a non Muslim as Kafir. The root meaning is one who covers. Like farmers cover the seed in soil. every religion has a believer and a disbeliever. The term kafir is a much more honored word compared to what Vedic scriptures uses, mleccha barbarians, rakshas dasya demons for disbelievers, it doesn’t even consider shudras to be aryans, dayanand writer that shudras are anaryas. and I read in one of your article that anaryas are terrorists. Man it’s over its of no use in mocking other religions and using Mayavi Vedic fraud to display ones relgn as superior evrne knws d truth abt…

Yes, Every religion has believer and disbelieve, but vedas did not preach to kill or pay tax to the disbeliever. this applicable only to islam. malecha means barbarism its right, but it is a character of a person. Barbaric person will have the character of war crimes, thighing a small girl, etc. For your information RAVAN who is the greatest devotee of GOD belongs to rakash tribe. you should know what is difference between shruds and aryans.. shruds is a Varna and aryan is tribe… Even RAVAN is called Arya putra in ramayan.

what else to expect from a arya samaji. The topic is about his own religion but he can’t control the nature of aryas which is attacking other religions. If you support idol worship will you tear these pages from satyarth and throw it away? “Idol worship is a fraud. The Jaiinees were the authors of this mode of worship.” Satyarth Prakash Page 240 have some courage and approve this comment

…may not understand emiedadly who fullness when cut in pices (murtis) can remain full and also the “pieces”, but contemplaiting about the mntra can help. Another explanation of this (Brahman) is called INDRAS NET! Hope I could stop the fruitless argumentation “idol” pro & contra. let me know!

Why arguing about Idols her? There are no Idols, they are MURTIS! The rishis gave different murtis for different mindset of people! The rishis knew that there is only one God who is the source of everything BRAHMAHN and this formless absolute fullness is very difficult to understand. A murti that shows an aspect of God always represents also the fullness. Om Purnamadah Purnamidam, this Upanishad mantra when understood, makes clear that murtis are not idols and that a part or Aspect of God (fullness) is always also fullness and even fullness minus fullness is still fullness. You…

‘God’/’Iswar’/Bhagavan/Allah is the subtle food that every one takes. Without food there is no life. At home, in member of 5, all the 5 varies in the food stuffs they eat. Because they have different tastes/likings. its not the father or mother or the children to be blamed for this, its the nature of MAN that God has created. Why shud one look into others plate? Look into ur plate enjoy and live happily. Please dont make religion a means for fighting with each other. Lets be one & fight against poverty of FOOD and LOVE. Religion is only means to reach GOD. GOD is not religion. GOD…

In smaller classes we are taught that a negative number cannot have a square root…..and in class XI we are taught about the number or concept called “i”. If u want to keep on arguing u could reject the concept of “i”(where i =√ −1)…..stating “No I can’t accept “i”….it is contradictory to the number system to even consider “i” ”

Similarly one religion may talk about a formless god, another about god with a form…….apparently contradictory…..then comes the third explanation “god can be both formless and with form”…….which explains…

And finally….you know trigonometry, arithematics are all branches of mathematics…..but as I explained to concept of “i” in the previous reply…….u e still stuck up with basic level arithematics and keep on saying “basic maths TB talk about arithematics only…..so others should be rejected”

Similarly with higher levels of knowledge u learn to appreciate something which may not be mentioned in higher TB

Your so called confusion in formless and form god is that they r contradictory….That also is not correct…Haven’t u seen energy(formless) and light (form)?

See dear it is simple to understand, no need to think much- If god would be formless then how could a universe with very beautiful and appealing form could be created ?? Every thing is having a definite form, without form it is useless. Let me clear you, – how would you see a text as a means of achieving or worshiping god ?? like Gita, vedas, quran, bible etc…… now you will be saying that – yes holy text are an appropriate way to worship god . Right ?? so my question is that – you are accepting words printed on any media which is having form, ( letters – A to Z and numbers- 1 to 9 have a definite form !! ) to be a medium to god but not pictures or idols ?? why why ?? When we are reading any text written in any language, we are creating and at the same time remembering the images of the letters, symbols and numbers in our occipital lobe of our brain, when we are reading with pure and full devotion we are actually worshiping those images and the book. Thats why holy books like Gita, Quran and Bible are regarded not only as books but as divine matter and are treated with respect in all religions. Idols are 3 dimensional and pictures of god and words of holy text are 2 dimensional. formless worshiping of the creator ( god ) is not at all possible. After all swami dayanand saraswati is also a human, and all humans including great personalities are susceptible to mistakes. Think out of flow, think logical in a true sense. God bless you

Yes I agree with u bhai, Maths…everything is intellectually same; but still all cant grasp them in the same level. I am good at Maths and poor in Eng, but my husband is very good at Physics me not. But the mutual LOVE which we share in the family cant be expressed intellectually. UNDERSTAND GOD BUT DONT ARGUE UPON GOD. God is irrespective of religion. To understand GOD u need intellect but to REALISE and LOVE GOD u just need a PURE HEART.

WHy take selective teachings from Lord Krishna?Why can’t u accept other teachings of Krishna? If u r capable of just ignoring swami DS you would be in a position to interpret the Vedas and BG WITHOUT contradictions, .I fail to understand why u can’t do that?

God can be both formless and with form at the same time, a being with form could opt to be without form and vice versa if he is all powrful, whats the problem?

Having form does not make anything finite !! If u can’t imagine that, its a problem with your brain !

No….they are not oppsoing attributes….because .I can imagine it…..many other people can….Its just that you CANNOT…..if for a change u could ignore what all u have learnd and start afresh, then maybe u also could see…but thats not possible !

I could even give u a very close analogy…… 1)Different “forms” of energy…..electricity, light, heat, sound……but basically they could all be considered as sakar form of the nirakar energy

2)Energy and Matter……they are interconvertible…..one is sakar (matter)…..and the other can remain nirakar

i consider swami dayanand saraswti as a person who enlightend all of india /aryavart by providing the brightest light towards understanding vedas and oneness of god mentioned there.

but when i look upon the sages and various saints who had been here and they had no selfish behaviours or want of something . when such people too acknowledge vedas and idol worship …it mst be understood that there are things we must analyze leaving aside only reading and quoting scriptures…..VEDAS contain more than their wordy meanings .

I agree that people should accept vedas, but why the people should deny the birth of GOD as krishna and Ram. vedas are written by 2180 saints in different time, people have the choice to choose the teacher they want. many believe Krishna is the GOD and teacher, what wrong in following the Lord Krishna.

Nothing is wrong…..the problem these people have is that if its a human. then it vecomes that god has become concievable or finite…….

But I velieve appearing in human form does not make “god” limited to what is seen……..as mentioned in BG Lord Krishna does say that noone inderstands his true nature and that he has transcendent nature…..the body of Krishna that people saw is just a “maya” an illusion !!

Krishna was a great devotee of God. Even during journey & war, he used to have his regular ‘dhyaan’ (meditation) of God. It is our ignorance that we took him as God.

One should refer Geeta 18.61 and 62, wherein it is said –

The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone’s heart means He is all-pervading – Omni-present…O scion of Bharata, surrender unto HIM (= that eternal God, not to great person named Krishna) utterly. By HIS grace you will attain transcendental peace and the supreme and eternal abode.

hey jesus when missing in europe that time he was in BHAARATHA(INDIA) & he became student of HIMALAYA BABA(AVATAR BABA) & then jesus was became peace kind man but jesus was not told i am became peace man from SANATHANA DHARMA,, GURUDEV(TEACHER) FROM HIMALAYA BABA(AVATAR BABA) & when jesus death he again became alive after 3 days but after he alive he did not stay in europe he stayed in BHAARATHA & again he became student of 2nd GURU(TEACHER) called MANIKYA the great MANIKYA MUNI(SAINT) teached to him what is SANATHANA DHARMA & MANIKYA gaven RUDRAKHI to jesus & jesus…

I had alreadyposted multiple evidence ie verses showing god has form…..here is one more:

Agne TanuH Asi | Vishnve Tva Somasya Tanur’ Asi (Yaj 1..15) (That Eternal Purush has a body for nurturing everyone i.e. when God, comes as a guest in this world for some time to explain Tattavgyan to His devotees, He comes by wearing a body of lighter masses of lights over His actual effulgent body

The question here is not whether idol worship is the right way of worshipping god or not. Everyone can have his or her opinion on this and everyone is free to give his or her opinion. Problem arises when some people try to impose their views on others and forces others to accept their ideology.

Saying that idol worshppers are worst creatures and they will burn in hell is wrong. A noble idol worshpper is far better than a worshipper of formless god who is a criminal.

4)Because there are verses in vedas against idol worship…..it is incorrect to state that idol worship is against Vedas 5)Idols used in worship by Hindu’s are not really god. It is just a medium.. Trough this medium the same one god is worshipped whose form is imcomprehensible for us 6)Someone may close their eyes and pray to a formless god…..the very act is idol worship in one sense. So all “non-idol worshipper” who are really idol worshipers. The only true non idol worshippers are…

……to accept both verses…..u could have thought maybe Vedas are more complex than u think….and maybe god is much more than the limited definition u gave

My point in replying here again and again is not primarily you…..the average Hindu is illiterate regarding his scriptures and I don’t want anybody like that to falsely believe that Vedas are against using idols

1)No verse in Vedas directly or indirectly go against idol worship 2)There are even verses in Vedas which says ishwar exists in both a formless state and in a state with form (ie sakar and nirakar states). This verse per se do not advicate idol worship….but it does confirm that god is not confined to being formless as some people want to preach and believe. 3)The absolute fact is no verse exist in Vedas which speak about (for or against) idol worship

I also realise that I may not be able to correct you. You are not ready to accept verses from Vedas simply because they go against your ideas and b/c u prefer to maintain your non-Vedic stand. I am sorry for being blunt here, but that is what it is. I am ready to discuss any sciptural evidence with u or anyone if they can explain the lternate verses. But u simply are trying to expel the “contradictory” VEDIC verses b/c they r not in line with your thinking. What u must have done is to think…

Moreover what i gave were vedic verses…..and not just some statements…….what u did to yourself is that u accepted only those verses which is in line with your already existing ideas and rejected everything else……..your version of god is just a reflection of your own ideas……and you have shut your eyes on Vedas and Upanishads !!!!

Maybe its your mind that is keeping you jailed and u don’t want to take in knowledge!

Maybe you cannot imagine that god can have at the same time have a form and be formless. That is why you are taking a non-Vedic stand and is going against what is said in Vedas. Just like energy exist in its sakar forms like heat, light, electrcity etc, it is also true that energy exists in totally nirakar forms like gravitational energy, nuclear energy and even within a vaccum, similarly god too can.

“ENERGY” used in science is inert, not conscious. It is part & parcel of “MASS”. According to Vedic philosophy, “ENERGY” & “MASS” can be considered as effects of the basic – primordial matter named as “Mool-Prakriti”. So, they are inert as their cause is inert. Since the “Mool-Prakriti” has form – though a very very subtle form which cannot be seen, the effects thereof (ENERGY & MASS, etc.) are also with very subtle form and cannot be seen. Bhavesh Merja

I quoted the example only to direct your attention to the fact that though electricity, light , heat, mass, vaccum etc are outwardly different, all consist of the same thing…ultimately the same energy…albeit in sakar and nirakar form (ie manifest and unmanifest forms).

That para was meant to show u that something can exist in dual forms….sakar and nirakar forms…..hence u cannot say that god cannot both be sakar and nirakar as if u r in

It is not about hurting someone’s feeling. Just Look at Bill Gates–he is spending all his wealth to help others–treating children with Polio–not like Raju, who donated 13 cr for 34 kg necklace to a stone structure. One such religious person was saying that we also serve poor people–what % of Triputi Temple money is used for welfare. Hindus are bunch of ignorant ppl–it hurts but it is True. We are not afraid to commit sin since we can get rid of sins through donations to these toys.

I gave you several verses from the Vedas in support of a sakar ishwar…….When I said o contradictions, I meant Vedic verses may seem to be apparently in contradiction to each other…….but the fact is that there is no contradiction within for me.

But if YOU READ the Vedic verses i posted…..you will have to say those verses contradict your idea of ONLY a nrakar iswar

BG is in contradiction to Veda only for YOU…..not for me…..so “anything in contradiction to Vedas are to be…

God is sakkar,i.e. with forms means he can be worshipped in any form. aslo God comes down as incarnations,where he takes material body. now wen we say he takes material body,it doesnt mean he becomes limited to the limitations of the material body,rather he can do contradictory things at the same time.

Again everything is made of five elements. The clay shape structure is also made of 5 elements–flowers that you offer is also made of same five elements, your offering is also made of the same 5 elements. You do need any structure to remember God–everything in this wonderful creation reminds us of God every single moment. You offer milk to God-forget for a moment that you are a Hindu-just think with logic.. Not many years back Lord Ganesha was drinking milk–big queue everywhere-logical?

God has sent with intellect–we can interpret lots of things without referring to any book. It will several years to just count stars in this universe and there are several such galaxies. If you place our beloved planet earth in the right perspective then you will realize that our earth is very tiny. Now, you can take some clay and give it a certain shape–you place it in a temple and say that it is God that created the whole universe–do u see any logic here?

Rishi says that Vedas are the true book of knowledge–anything that contradicts should be disowned. My understanding is that Krishna tried to summarize Vedas through Gita. Also, there has been corruption of our scriptures by Pundits–introduced certain verses to justify Murti Puja. Rishi says that if you find anything that contradict Vedas then it is not acceptable. For instance, physics is based on certain basic principles-you can not develop a new theory that contradicts fundamentals.

If you talk to 10 people to interpret these verses then you will get 10 different interpretations–you have to be a real scholar of Sanskrit to interpret them correctly. I am not. Also, Vedas are the basic books–similar to basic books of science. According to Rishi, there can not be contradictions-Santan books.. In fact, you are supporting Zakir Naik –he also says that there were contradictions in Vedas–leading to the creation of Quran. Gita tries to summarize Vedas.

In the quoted verse of Brihad-aaranyak Upanishad (2.3.1), the word “Brahma” is used as a group name of 5 Mahaa-bhootas, & not for God. The word “Brahma” has so many meanings viz. truth, diet, wealth, celibacy, matter, emancipation, brahmin, Aum, penance, element or substance, Veda, etc, It is said in this verse that out of the 5 mahaa-bhootas, some (Prithivi, Jal & Agni) have GROSS form; and others (aakaash & Vaayu) have SUBTLE form. This is further clarified in the next…

andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti ye ‘vidyām upāsate tato bhūya iva te tamo ya u vidyāyām ratāḥ [Isha Up. – 9] Now tell me, what kind of logic is this! It is understandable if we say one will enter darkness if he worships or follows ignorance, but why would any one enter darkness if he follows knowledge?

So these verses only encourage to have a complete knowledge of the both the aspects instead of following or knowing only one. It is because both knowledge and ignorance are part of…

Please read Chapter 7 & 11 of Satyarath Prakash.–it is written in Q&A form–you can read either Hindi or English Version of the book. Book has answers to all questions that you are asking me. The book is available at Agniveer website. You will get your answer in these two chapters.

First Vedas are the foundations of Vedic Dharam–fundamentals. You do not need to read any other book. This was the main argument of Rishi. Also, different people have interpreted Gita differently. Hare Krishna people interpret the meaning in different manner, Swami Chinmayanand has done differently and Shivanand has done differently. I have to be honest with you–I do not claim to be a Sanskrit scholar. I have read Manu Smriti, Gita, & KathoUpanishads–commentary by schiolars.

The place I live there is no “exploitation” by anyone in the name of idols or temples. People however do donate money for temples. I see nothing wrong in that. If it gives them happiness let it. Temples are something which gives people happy, gives them hope….let it !

A bodyless god may appear scientific to preach…….but will not give people any happiness. People need something tangible to connect with.

Here I have to disagree–people donate money to temples for a different reason–they commit sins and then they try to bribe God–people go to Ganges to get rid of sins. Rishi says that you have to suffer if you do something wrong–Karma theory. If I drive on road and do not follow traffic rules then there is a good possibility that I will die–this is the definition of SIN. People do feel peaceful–Pundits convinces them that they could be saved through donations.

Now this Raju ( NRI) donates 13 Cr for 34 kg sahastra nam mala to Triputi–what kind of religion is this. He could have built a hospital or an educational institute with that much money. Do you see any logic here? Once I went to Kedarnath temple with a hiking group. I do not go to temple but I was shocked–there was a small queue for people making big donations & a longer queue for poor people–How can god be so unfair? People convert because of suffocation.

I refuse to criticize islam because my home is very very dirty–how can I criticize Islam? I have seen Nirmal Baba several times in TV–Someone with even below average IQ would not follow him–Most of his followers are Hindus–There is so much ignorance in the society that they are ready to even accept someone like Nirmal Baba. Switch On Astha–you will see ads of Lal Kitab, Rudrax Mala, Hanuman Locket. What is this? Our country will become strong only if we can remove darkness from our society.

If you really want to address conversion issue then everyone should read “Satyarath Prakash” and understand true Vedic Dharam–stop worshiping these toys made of clay and stone, eliminate untouchability and other superstitions–also put all these babas in jail. Open Health Clubs, Yoga & Meditation Centers in every block, Promote scientific and rational thinking–explain message of Vedas in simple language–can not accept everyone to read Vedas.

again typo–you can’t expect’ everyone to read Vedas–should be explained in simple language. No one wants complications–whether it is going to Amarnath/Vaishno Devi Temple or offering Namaj five times in a day. Rejection of organized religion by West and many other developed nations simply shows that human beings are rational by nature & they want to lead a simple life. Ppl convert because of suffocation. Recently mother in law of my friend to Amarnath and she had brain hemorrhage…

Now let me come to the question of Zakir Naik–He is simply exploiting ignorance of gullible Hindus. He uses the same technique that other fraud Babas are using.. I saw some videos posted in youtube. He says to a Hindu woman that Krishna had 16K wives or girl friends and she gets convinced and accepts Islam. I recall one event, where Hare Krishna Bhakts came to stage and told a largely western audience that Krishna had thousands of girl friends–no one protested–this simply shows ignorance..

Most of the Hindus have not read any scriptures–Vedas, Gita Or Upanishads–resulting in emergence of brokers–Asha Ram, Nirmal Baba, Radhe Ma, Rampal etc. Launch of Astha channel was a boon for these fraud Babas. No one has time to read scriptures and understand spiritual science.

This is the reason Christian Missionaries are active in India–West has become rational–If Nirmal Baba can get so many followers then they can also! I do not think that there is need for forced conversion.

God has given me soul–I should treat everything around me, other human beings, plants, nature with respect. I should not do anything that hurts other human beings, They are all creation of the same God. I should not pollute my environment.

Vedas say become a good human being–not Hindu, Muslim or Christian.

Choice is yours–I see lots of negativity here–criticizing Muslims for worshiping Black stone in Kaba etc at the same time defending your own blind faith–this is not good for…

God has given me intellect: I should use my intellect to do innovative work so that world can benefit. One of the message from Veda is that humans should acquire knowledge for the benefit of everyone.

A scientist worships through his intellect–Engineers by inventing search engine has done immense service to man kind–they came from all faiths. There is Brahma or intellect in everyone irrespective of faith–Hindus, Christians and Muslims.

God has given me Mind–I worship my mind through meditation–Purify your mind of all impurities that you are carrying from previous life and acquired in this life. Vipassana Meditation is all about purifying your mind.

I have very limited understanding but my understanding says that God has sent us with four things: 1. Physical Self, 2, Mind Self 3. Intellect Self & 4. Soul self. Mind is subtle than Physical self; Intellect Self is subtle than Mind and Soul is subtle than Intellect.

I go to to one meditation group in San Jose: http://www.awakin.org–Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus everyone comes here–they discuss spiritual matters and eat dinner together. The world is moving towards rationality–more and more people are saying that we are spiritual–not religious. I am a “Human Being” and I am very proud of that–I do not need any Tag of Hindu, Muslim or Christian..

if you talk about the spiritual science and bring scientific thinking–eliminate idol worship and other superstitions then people will naturally come back to you. I did ten days Vipassana meditation course 10 days back and found that person sitting next to me was Iranian. Few months back, Vipassana course was offered in Persian language–showing its popularity among Iranians. God has given same intellect to everyone and people are logical by nature.

People make all kind of arguments in support of Murti Puja–Rishi has written his chapters in Q &A form and gave answer to all those questions in the Chapter 7 & 11 of his book. People in west are slowly moving away from organized religions–I have yet to see a Church under construction in USA. My Polish friend once told me that Christians only twice in their life time: At the time of wedding and at the time of death. One of my musli,m friend from Turkey told me that religion was…

again typo, my friend told me that Christians go twice in their entire life to the Church.. Religion is very unpopular in USA. & Europe. Same is true in Japan–I was in a Train and a Japanese student was sitting next to me–he told me that majority of the Japanese do not believe in any organized religion–I heard similar sentiments from my Korean Friends. Chinese also do not practice any religion. Main purpose of these temples is to explot poor people–spirituality is very different.

Vijay, I know that there is no point in arguing over this point. Maharishi Dayanand is from 19th century & there has not been any distortion–his message is well documented in Satyarath Prakash (written in 1875).. Neither I nor you are qualified to interpret Vedas and debate over its finer points. Everything is logical here–We became slaves because we started relying on these stones instead of our own capabilities–a rich country builds army to protect its people & our kings did the…

man of higher faculty,,,,who could fo about with the fomrless god concept……or as I had said earlier at the timeof DS he may have felt that India needed a jolt to shift themselves from cult practices and thus intentionally proponded one aspect of knowledge…..or maybe he just failed to realised that not all people are ready to do away with idol worship.

More probably, its also possible that the messages from DS would have corrupted over time and u now see a distorted version !!!!

God is unchangeable, means He never undergoes any change. Before Maharshi Dayananda came, God had been Formless and Omni-present. During the life time of Dayananda, God was Formless and Omni-present. After passing away of Dayananda, God has been Formless and Omni-present. These are His natural attributes. He exists so eternally. Bhavesh Merja

your devotion would remain weak and u will remain where u r . In state u can keep all your scriptural knowledge and this is not going to help you (I am presuming you to be a person ill-equipped to woship a formless Brahman…..having not enough concetration/mental faculty to do that….A Big SORRY if I am mistaken).

In your case all u have is few verses here and there and u have missed the message. And now u have pinned all your hopes on the teachings of DS.

and concentration. Until one reaches this state our Acharyas will ask us to perform devotion to attain this state where u r ready to obtain the ultimate knowledge and state. Imparting such knowledge to a less qualified being can only be counterproductve and even dangerous. Imagine telling “you are that” to a unread Hindu-it would make no sense to him.

To attain this state we need to do devotion…..and to do devotion we need a medium…..a word, a picture, an idol something……if u don’t

Meaning one must read scriptures and try to get its message………rather than clutching onto the book as such

Tatvamasi (you are that) and Aham Brahmasmi (I am Brahman) are two mahavakyas u would find in the Upanishads. These are the ulitmate knowledge. But it is intended to be given only to those students who have attained a pure…

Movie PK gave a strong message: Just imagine that you are not born in a Hindu, Muslim, Christian or Jew family–You are PK. It will take several hundred years to count stars in this universe and there are infinite Galaxies–lots of matter. You take a piece of clay from your backyard, give it a shape–then consider it to be the creator of this universe–you offers gold, diamonds etc. to this piece–do u find it logical? You offer it flowers, milk etc.–made of same elements-no books needed.

his devotion was stronger and truthful……So I believe itcounts for nothing if we read all the scriptures and keep our heads up in pride that we have the correct knwoledge about god (that he is bodyless and pure) if we are unable to realise god (for me that is salvation)……..and I believe an idol worshipper or a “bodilyless god” worshipper both can achieve it…….if they can forgo their egos……and worship god in whichever form they feel is right !!!!!

ie whether we deduced right regarding the god concept. If it was so-u would agree with me that it would be so unfair….Afterall even the Pundits have differing opinion after reading the same scriptures…..hence it would be unfair to expect us to get it right…….INSTEAD I believe more than our scriptural knowledge and “deductions”, it is going to be our level of devotion to god that is going to matter. My uneducated neighbour may infact have a better chance at salvation than me or you b/c

iswar than to a nirakar ishwar-eventhough both methods are equally valid (whcih in my viewpoint explains one reason for having a Sakar ishwar).

I believe Swami DS viewpoints were a necessity in his times……and that is why he promoted it.

Finally a logical statement: God wouldn’t test us or reward us (excuse me for using the terms “test” and “reward”….these are not really appropriate in our dharama-i know,,,,but i used it only b/c those words drives home the message) based on our…

if god was against idol worship, there would have been a verse directly prohibiting it.

Let me also remind you, when the Vedas say that “god is bodyless”, they are talking about BRAHMAN. It doesn’t mean that this Brahman can’t manifest itself in a bodily form if it wishes. If u take it this way, it is very much in unison with BG verses where Krishna says “my current form is not my real form, but u cannot know my transendental form”

Agreed Bhagavad Gita is probably a human work…..if thats so…..Ved Vyas wrote it. Ved Vyas is considered the greatest sage in Hinduism (plz excuse the usage of the word Hinduism)…..its he who has rearranged/split the Vedas. The present day Vedas are the result of Vyasa’s work. So maybe he conjured up fable stories to write a totally mythological Bhagavad Gita. But even in this view, the ideas presented in BG represents Vyasa’s understanding of Vedas. My understanding of the Vedas too is

Teerorism is a human vice–it originates in blind faith and ignorance. Islam is man made religion–it has contradictions–message of both peace and violence. Terrorist uses the verses that suits them. It is not limited to a single faith–Hinduism has also traces of it: Attempts on the life of Rishi Dayanand in 19th century; killing of Vaidf Prajapati by Asha Ram supporters; discovery of arms in Baba Rampal Ashram; attack on Swami Agnivesh by VHP because of his Amarnath comment; PK Protests etc.

Hinduism is not all inclusive–VHP/RSS uses this word to describe everyone who is not Muslim, Christian or Jew. However, in practice it means Idol worshipers. if I say to an American that I am Hindu then he will describe me as one who worships Lord Ganesh or Shiva. This definition is not acceptable to Sikhs and many others. I am an Aryasamaji and I also do not think that I come under this definition–rather I would say my dharam is Hunamity–I feel comfortable with this definition..

In fact, your definition of Hinduism excludes Vedas. Vedas clearly say God is unborn, formless& omnipresent. This negates theory of Avatars. If you Hinduism is all inclusive ( all humans) then it is not a religion. Vedas are the books of spiritual science: It can not have contradictions. It either supports Idol Worship or it does not. You can’t make an argument that Vedas support both.

I agree Vedas say that god is bodyless and pure. But my only point here is that eventhough god maybe bodyless or pure, it is not prohibited in Vedas to devote this bodyless god by the medium of an idol. No sensible Hindu will attribute any special power to these idols and he does know that his god’s true form is transcendental.

Lord Krishna in Bhagavad Gita does say that his real form is transcendental. If we accept that for face value I don’t see it contradicting the Vedas.

Dharam is universal for all man kind and does not exclude anyone– Muslims, Christians or Jews. Vedas say Manur Bhav–meaning convert to a virtuous person ( Ghar Vapasi in real sense) by imbibing virtues and denouncing vices from your life–this is the goal of life. God is an abstraction of 100% virtues. You have to convert every single day and move towards God by bringing virtues in your life–you do not need a piece of stone for this. We human have x% of virtues and y % of vices: God: x=100%

Truth is that Agniveer himself got the knowledge of Vedas through Maharishi Dayanand. I do not know the motivation behind his posts but he also knows that Vedas do not support Idol worship–Agniveer is simply promoting the interests of RSS & VHP through his postings for political reasons.

There was never a religion called “Hinduism”–Vedas say “Manur Bhav”–not “Hindu Bhav”. Word “Hindu” does not exist in ancient scriptures.

I can tell you with fair degree of confidence that Rishi Dayanand was the greatest scholar of Vedas of modern era–he was an authority. Vedas are not easy books to read & interpret–even knowledge of Sanskrit is not sufficient. I am not even qualified to do so. SP has several quotes from Vedas against Murti Puja. I will also have to quote either from SP or Rishi’s translation of Vedas. Sometimes you have to use your own intellect to understand things–Murti Puja is not logical.

You also know that this video merely depicts a play by the students in a Gurukul. The actual debate continued for several hours– & there were 300 scholars on the other side in this debate. Rishi Dayanand is the greatest scholar of Vedas. Satyarath Prakash is not a religious book–it gives arguments ( Q& A form)based on Vedas. You can go & read chapter 7 & 11 and answers to all the arguments that you are making in this forum.There is difference between Religion…

As I told, u seem to be following the words of a person rather than scriptures. You can’t rely upon the interpretation of Vedas by someone else, you have to interpret yourself. I believe in this….hence i am not giving you any links to check……Just go back , check the Vedas and then comment

I have checked each and every link u gave….then why don’t you try my request for once….”try to quote one vedic verse against idol worship”

The only verse quoted in d video that comes somewhere near prohibiting idol worship is “na tasya pratima asti”….which if u would just look back has already been addressed by me….apart from this the video didn’t speak of any scriptural evidence against idol worship…..because NO SUCH VERSE EXISTS !

Our religion is a broad minded one, which focuses on “how deep your devotion Is’ rather than “the manner in which u pray”

The only verse quoted in the video that comes somewhere near prohibiting idol worship is “na tasya pratima asti”….which if u would just look back has already been addressed….apart from this the video didn’t speak of any scriptural evidence against idol worship…..because NO SUCH VERSE EXISTS !

Our religion is a broad minded one……which focuses on “how deep your devotion Is’ rather than “the manner in which u pray”

being against idol worship……but it will remain interpretation at best……because i take it as “there is nothing like him”

In any case the beauty of our dharam is that we are mature enough to accept others viewpoints

I replied to your opinion against idol worship because anyone reading this page might think that Vedas explicitly speak against idol worship. I intend to let them know that “such an opinion is only ONE interpretation” , there is no “explicit verse” like that….and

True, if someone does start a war, we need to be able to fight it, and end it on OUR terms, not theirs. Even if it means we gotta do a full scale brutal war, we need to be ready to do it. Key here is DO IT.

Have you read the Vedas yourself? I for a fact know that none of the vedas says anything against “idol worship”.And nobody considers idols to be actually god. I asked for a verse from Vedas (against idol worship) knowing u couldn’t quote any. You instead quoted the work of DS and not the Vedas per se. DS does say that Vedas says “He is pure, is never born and never takes on a human form.” But as I said to Bhavesh Merja earlier do not take a person’s words for face…

Always go back to the source (the Vedas)……swami DS has inserted “human form” into the translation of the verse from Yajur Veda which actually says “shudhama poapvidham” (Yaj 40.8) which means “he is bodyless and pure” AND TO THIS translation DS contributed his own interpretation that “god do not take human form”…..Such contributions keeps on accumulating when information passes on to you through multiple mediums. Always check with original source.

no other verse comes even near to idol worship…..You can check…As I told…..do not believe me, DS or anybody else…check with the source….Now if u do find anything….plz quote it.

Secondly none of our principle scriptrues ie the Vedas or Upanishads or the Bhagavad Gita will contradict each other …when u interpret one, it should be in a way that do not contradict the other (u don’t have to believe me here….but its my opinion)

As I told Bhavesh….our acharyas (teachers) will highlight only that aspect of knowledge which they believe is what the student needs to know (plz read my earlier replies to Bhavesh where i have explained this consept further)

Or it is possible that….the opinions of DS may be his interpretation…..and others have felt otherwise (including me)

In any case there is no verse in Vedas directly or indirectly prohibiting idol worship…..all one can do is interpret “na tasya pratima…

1. God in islam lives in jannat ;sits in a throne above 7 heavens. while Hindus believe God is present everywhere omnipresent both microcosm and macrocosm. God is beyond space time

Having said this, Vedanta also says universe is illusion. soul of humans (jiva) =soul of paramatma (soul of Vishnu,Durga or shiva) = ParaBrahmam(GOD). it is similar to holy spirit concept in X’tianity

so idols have Dugra,Vishnu,Shiva not Brahmam…Brahmam is everywhere ; not just in idols.

Using maya(illusion) or prakriti (nature) God assumes many forms.

Now you cannot see Allah per islam,but you can talk to him. Allah spake with Moses (Musanabi) LOL

Mere lip service is enough in islam..just says Allah I thank you for giving me life… Say Allah I worship thee creater of worlds. No need to concentrate on GOD. you can’t concentrate on Brahmam. I mean unrealized souls like us …So you need to worship Shiva, Vishnu, Durga

Now islam says soul is born when you are born (say april 3 2001) but soul will not die and stays in hell forever (for hindus only LOL)

my question is if there is birth then there is death….think through….. our soul has no death or birth.

Dear sanjeev verma: -Swamy dayananda never said that idol worshipers are fools. He never said that idol worshipers are burned in the hell.If you want to spread true vedic dharma ,I can support you. But don’t insult idol worshipers &Hindus like Muslims.

Dayananda’s mission was not to use bad words for any body. He wanted to make people aware of the fact that idol worship is not a right kind of way for spiritual growth. He found that the Vedas & other Vedic books authored by great seers don’t approve idol worship, instead they recommend yoga and other thing. God, the Supreme power, is described in these books as a Formless & Omni-present entity. So he tried to awaken the people and wished to eradicate this evil practice from the world…

I fully agree. One can do Idol worship if it helps him/her–I do not see any benefit & it is my personal opinion.. I see more benefits in Yoga & Meditation. Millions of people do Vipassana meditation without any Idol and get immediate benefits. Rishi also mentions in his book that you do not need to imagine an Idol or shape to meditate–you pay attention to breathing. Idol Worship (public display) is not good for a nation–we should learn from history.

I never made any such claims. Yes, he said that people worshiped Idols out of ignorance & he blamed this practice for the slavery of our country. You can always worship an idol if it helps in your spiritual practice. However, poor people of our country have been looted ( are still being) in the name of idol worship–an Iron Idol was put in the middle of Somnath Temple using magnets-India was a Golden Bird–wealth should have been used to protect its people. by building a…

Rishi’s message: Idol Worship in public space–brings inertia in society & nation–Our Kings exactly did that and allowed our wealth to be looted–we need to learn from history. My biggest fear–same is happening even today-all kinds of falsehood is being propagated through our TV channels–through Ram Temple movement–all in the name of Hinduism. How can there be so many followers of Nirmal Baba? He talks all nonsense. Rational thinking is questioned–protest against PK movie.

Swami Dayananda was a well-wisher of entire mankind. He tried to put the realities about idolatry without fear or favour, as a bounden duty of a Sannyaasi. He wanted to make people free from this gross misunderstanding. He declared and shown with scriptural evidences and reasoning that to worship idols is not a meaningful act. Bhavesh Merja

People have to choose between Chitra Puja & Charitra Puja, Dharam & Religion, Rationality & Superstitions, Progress & Ram Temple. VHP wants you to believe in Hindu Religion and steal your wealth for Ram Temple so that invaders can come and loot your wealth. You can either follow Dhram ( like King Ram) or Religion ( like king of Saurashtra).

Sure, you can put idols in every corner of your house if it helps in your meditation but do not put a temple on the walls of a shopping complex and do not loot masses to construct a temple. Wealth of our country should be used to build industry, universities and a strong army,

Maharishi Dayanand questioned his father on the benefits of Idol Worship and became Maharishi Dayanand from Mool Shankar. It is interesting that Agniveer has put pdf version of Satyarath Prakash in his website and then argues against the teachings of Dayanand. He was the greatest scholar of Vedas & you will find all reference in…

In English–read chapter on God & The Veda ( Chapter 7). It is a historical fact that not a single pundit of Kashi could debate with Maharishi on the issue of Idol Worship–he was a great Vedic scholar and no one could win in this debate–More than 100 scholars debated with him on this issue.

In the 11th chapter of Satyarth-Prakash one can read scriptural evidences as well as various reasons why idol worship is not to be practiced. Still one is not ready to leave idol worship, it is his/her choice. We sincerely respect such freedom. We are not here to compel any one to follow what we think right. Bhavesh Merja

@jyotish,sir asfar as i have read,vedas are knowldge an truth , they express reality of god ,and yes nowhere its written that idol worship is sin,,bedas just gives us knowldge that ishwar is formless,omnipotent,present andscient ..but if anyone to convey his regards formsidols forpsychologicalpurpose its not acrime,,but one fact thisi salsotrue , the recommended worshipp, of god is eternal worship through yog,mediationand chanting of vedic mantras ,doesit givesgod anything,,answer no, god whatever does, does for others ,its not ishwar whogets pleased only by the way prescribein vedas,,but doing that raises onself to superconsciousness,,,when one getts more confined to innerself thaan external,,he becomes close to eternal,,i think saying idolworshipos as sin is fanatic,,but it shouldbethat v should elevate ourselvesfromexternaltoeternalselfandformofworships.

King of Surashtra: followed Religion and donated diamonds and wealth to Somnath Temple ( with iron idol hanging in the middle of temple) instead of using Iron and wealth to build arms and protect tax paying people.

Hinduism says that an elephant head can be put on human body–Our PM says that it was an example of plastic surgery–OK agree then please repeat the same feat today. Believers of Vedas believe in logical and scientific thinking–there is no rationality in religion such as Hinduism. Hinduism say that Idols of Ganesh can drink Milk–Vedas say that it is not possible. I do not know how any reasonable person can claim that Vedas are the basis of Hinduism and talk against fundamentals.

First, Idol worshipers can’t be Hindus–If Vedas are considered the foundation of Hinduism–you can’t have both way.Vedas is a book of spiritual science and if Vedas are the basis then you can’t go against the fundamentals. Every science is built on certain basic principles. Vedas clearly negates Idol Worship and theory of Avatars.

Really it a good artical, i would like to say my opinion Geeta states they one can attain the spirituality with Yoga and meditation, and Geeta 12:5 says it is difficult to attain the sprituality when you workship the imageless god. Yoga sastra gives the guideline for yoga, and meditation, it says 3 elements for oga, and meditation which is person who do meditation , process of meditation and Object of meditation. The third element ,Object of meditation plays the major role here. .

Both Muslims and Christians practice idolatry. Muslims worship Kaaba and black stone. Christians worship idols of Jesus, Virgin Mary, Black Madonna. Muslims believe that Quran is revealed word of God while Christians believe that Bible is the revealed word of God. Natural questions arise : Why God contradicts himself by sending two different prophets with two different messages ? Is God confused of his own aim of creation ? Does this kind of God really exist ?

As the Muslims claim, the Bible in its true form was indeed the message from god…..but over time the message got corrupted during translations and rewriting (some of which were done unknowingly whereas others were purposefully done)…and the current version we see is a “corrupted verse”. Hence god decided to send a new prophet and a new book.

Whereas Christians claim tha the Quran is a plagarised version of their…

In Islam, every single act of worship must be directed to God alone, and the greatest sin in Islam is to direct even the tiniest part of worship to other than God. It is not allowed for a Muslim to have any kind of intermediary with God in worship, whether a living being, or an inanimate object. Muslims pray to Allah – Almighty God – alone, and they do not take things either as direct objects of worship, or indirect objects of worship through which God’s help is sought…

The Ka’bah (also spelt Kaaba) is a mosque – a Muslim place of worship, built by the Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), and before him by Adam, the Father of Mankind. It serves as a place of prayer, and the direction which every single Muslim around the world faces to pray. It also plays a critical role in the greater and lesser pilgrimages of Hajj and ‘Umrah, as the structure which Muslims circle around. Allah informs us about the Ka’bah in the Qur’an, saying:

“And [mention, O Muhammad], when We showed Abraham the site of the House (i.e the Ka’bah), [saying], “Do not associate anything with Me and purify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand [in prayer], and those who bow and prostrate.” [The Qur’an: al-Hajj 22:26] In all of these roles, the Ka’bah is simply a place for worshipping God, and a focal point of that worship, and it does not represent an object of worship itself or an intermediary through which God’s help is sought

This is clearly illustrated by the action of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, the second most senior and learned of the companions of the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), when he approached the Black Stone, mounted in the eastern corner of the Ka’bah, saying: “No doubt, I know that you are only a stone and can neither benefit nor harm anyone. If I had not seen Allah’s Messenger kissing you I would not have kissed you.” Saheeh al-Bukhari

sorry ur knowledge for islam is little.firstly we worship in one direction as kaba and not worship but direction and secondly we dont worship black stone as it is jannat ka pathar es par sahaba ne kharey hokar aazan deytey the aap hi bataye jis ki aap pooja kartey hai us par kharey ho saktey hai woh sirf pathar hai .some people kiss the stone as mohammad pbuh kiss the the stone but not worship it so its just a stone.

trying to object quoting DS. Better way to oppose is to quote scriptures. Problem with quoting men (long dead) is that their quotes pass through time…..their meanings, their contexts all get blurred with the passage of time. You got to analyse and accept knowledge….whether its coming from Agniveer, dayanand Saraswati (DS) or Myself

Otherwise u r just a pawn

Sorry if I appeared rude (thats not my intention…there was no better words to convey my message)

I had witten a detailed reply and all u have to comment is “read DS with open mind”….as if you think I have not read about DS

To allay your doubts….let me state it plainly , I have read about the teachings of DS…..”his main idea was go back to Vedas” and all the rest was his interpretation of Vedas. All I had asked you is to not to follow something because someone said so….u read the scriptures and form your own ideas. ALSO, READ MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS. I don’t want to repeat them

I subscribe to spirit of your article. But Swami Dayananda, the founder of Arya Samaj has mentioned that Idol-worship is a sin and insult to God. I think you know this fact, perhaps better than me ! Bhavesh Merja

@Bhavesh Half knowledge is very dangerous. Now you want to follow a person (Dayanant Saraswati) than go by actual facts. Leave apart DS-this articles explains the basis of idol worship and clearly demonstrates that what Hindu’s do is not really idol worship.

Then why does DS says so? People have this knack of following a teaching without trying to learn the principles. To bring those people back to basics our teachers may promote one aspect of knowledge which they feel would bring back…

When we see with our own eyes idols installed in the temples and the people bowing to those idols, how can we convince ourselves to believe that our people are not practising idol worship? Bhavesh Merja

See dear it is simple to understand, no need to think much- If god would be formless then how could a universe with very beautiful and appealing form could be created ?? Every thing is having a definite form, without form it is useless. Let me clear you, – how would you see a text as a means of achieving or worshiping god ?? like Gita, vedas, quran, bible etc…… now you will be saying that – yes holy text are an appropriate way to worship god . Right ?? so my question is that – you are accepting words printed on any media which is having form, ( letters – A to Z and numbers- 1 to 9 have a definite form !! ) to be a medium to god but not pictures or idols ?? why why ?? When we are reading any text written in any language, we are creating and at the same time remembering the images of the letters, symbols and numbers in our occipital lobe of our brain, when we are reading with pure and full devotion we are actually worshiping those images and the book. Thats why holy books like Gita, Quran and Bible are regarded not only as books but as divine matter and are treated with respect in all religions. Idols are 3 dimensional and pictures of god and words of holy text are 2 dimensional. formless worshiping of the creator ( god ) is not at all possible. After all swami dayanand saraswati is also a human, and all humans including great personalities are susceptible to mistakes. Think out of flow, think logical in a true sense. god bless you

Mr Bavesh Merja, when you sing national anthem and salute the national flag every one sees you saluting a cloth fluttering. Is it right? I Challenge yo to think logical in a true sense. An youn boy just get thrilled by looking at a photo of his sweet heart. Some times he even kisses the photo. Is he just kissing a paper or conveying his feelings towards his sweet heart? Let your logical and true sense answer.

back to core values. While your father taught you “how to ride a cycle”, hasn’t he told u “son-don’t worry I won’t take my hands off the cycle”…and then quietly took his hands off..thats not a lie…..he says what “u need to hear”. In the time of DS, people were focussing too much on the superficial aspects of religion….castes fighting against castes, Shaivites fighting with the Vaishnavites…etc etc……all the while forgetting core values……that is “all people are equal in…

“Vishnu Shiva are not 2 different gods”, “God is one”, or more correctly “advaita” which means truth is one, there is no two. When people are seen to be forgetful of these core ideas and are seen focussing on superficial apsects “acharyas” teachers at time to time will tell you what you need to hear.

The statement by DS needs to be taken in that context.

My point is…u saw the post by Agniveer here…..u couldn’t find any fault with the article per se- did u? Then accept it,…

I agree with Mr Bhavesh’s comments linking Maharshi Dayananda Saraswati, who wrote his book based on Vedic thoughts. Mr Agniveer also praising his views and selling 4 vedas online. Also he writes that anything (sastras or books) written on God, not obtained from Vedas, should not be authentic and should not be followed. Even Swami Ramdev, Late Guru Kripalji,etc given importance to Vedic advices in the matter of God and His worship. IIt is better known to Mr Agniveer than others.

Agniveer, I appreciate your intelligence and braveness. Through facebook i came to knw about 3 years back and shared your knowledge with our people. I am thankful that you made me confident. I have shared this post on my blog and given credit to yours. Keep Doing the good works and stay blessed. Thank You Sunny Kumar

He ridiculed blind faith, arrogance, hypocracy of all religions. He made movie little dramatic. Otherwise, there is nothing wrong to take a shot at these.

Rolling on the floortradition by christians in old era, hitting self by hunters by muslims, telling people that chirsitanity is a doorway to heaven which still persist in the US, prime example is Preacher Robertson of Virginia beach who wanted to be US president.

first of all i did’nt saw PK. but i did saw some scenes. What i understood was that PK makes a little fun of muharram- especially the ritual where participants inflict self pain. However we must understand that pathans of India and predominantly muslims of north india (and pakistan too) are hanafi sunni muslims.

sunnis make fun of shiite practises, and portray themselves as secular and liberal , but the fact is they do not consider shiites as true muslims. So its kind of hitting two targets in one shot.