Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Glenn Greenwald says Democrats have adopted a "Cold War McCarthyite kind of rhetoric" by accusing many its critics of having ties to Russia. "It’s sort of this constant rhetorical tactic to try and insinuate that anyone opposing the Clintons are somehow Russian agents, when it’s the Clintons who actually have a lot of ties to Russia, as well," Greenwald said. "I mean, the Clinton Foundation and Bill Clinton helped Russian companies take over uranium industries in various parts of the world. He received lots of Russian money for speeches."

You're not being silenced. This is spamming the board. You've already got multiple threads running with the same topic. If I asked for all of them to be closed, that would be silencing. Many threads for the same topic is bad board etiquette, IMO, but let's let the mods decide if a new thread is warranted.

You're not being silenced. This is spamming the board. You've already got multiple threads running with the same topic. If I asked for all of them to be closed, that would be silencing. Many threads for the same topic is bad board etiquette, IMO, but let's let the mods decide if a new thread is warranted.

If that is the way you feel then you should just not open any new threads started by him. It is everyones choice whether they read a thread or not.

Well, the problem with that is that once a single topic starts to dominate a board, it changes the engagement of users with the board. It's actually a sort of silencing of it's own. If you have to scroll through 20 threads about auto mechanics, you're going to give up looking for flower arrangement, and voila! You have an auto mechanics board.

lol. It's rather comic how threads about certain subjects - Russophobia, and now the new McCarthyism - invariably get provided with a rich set of examples of the phenomena.

Well, the funny part is that it's not clear if the examples were intended as such.

timebandit wrote:

...the problem with that is that once a single topic starts to dominate a board ... [etc]

Of course McCarthyism and related guilt-by-association is a new phenomena not to be confused with simple Russophobia. A new quality comes into being, expanding and deepening the process. Now, it is not simply that all Russians are bad, inherently, but also that anyone who says anything that could be construed as neutral, not unfriendly, etc. to them is also bad. The net of hatred widens, engulfing ever more targets. Quantity becomes quality.

The Clinton Trump example is interesting; both sides have business connections with Russia, at various times in the past especially. However it's clear that the Clinton campaign has ramped up the rhetoric to incendiary levels. It's desperation. HRC is now being compared to Richard Nixon for a comparable McCarthyite extremism. Nixon, of course, was very close to the original McCarthy, so he had plenty of practice.

Round up the usual Communists becomes round up the usual Russians becomes round up the usual Russian "sympathizers". It's all fun and games until someone shoots your Siberian Husky dog because his bark sounded Russian.

lol. It's rather comic how threads about certain subjects - Russophobia, and now the new McCarthyism - invariably get provided with a rich set of examples of the phenomena.

I thought that fishing for disagreement -- which you define as 'Russophobia' -- was pretty much the purpose of these threads.

Start a thread called "Haters gonna hate". Soon enough someone will suggest that human nature isn't as negative as you suggest, then you can say "Oh, lookie here, ANOTHER HATER. hoo rah."

Quote:

Now, it is not simply that all Russians are bad, inherently, but also that anyone who says anything that could be construed as neutral, not unfriendly, etc. to them is also bad. The net of hatred widens, engulfing ever more targets.

I'm really not seeing where anyone who doesn't hate Russia is the bad guy. But I'm definitely seeing lots and lots of suggestion that the mere criticism of Russia is somehow similar to homophobia.

It's honestly starting to look like this is the only thing in the entire world that you care about. The poor, misunderstood Russian.

I honestly don't think most Canadians hate Russians. Don't they tend to think of the Arctic neighbours as normal people with long cold winters and good hockey players?

There is real prejudice in Canada, but it hits Indigenous people worst, and of late there has been a lot of ignorant bigotry towards people who are, or who are suspected of being "Muslim". And one can hardly live next to the US without being affected to stereotypes about people of African origin. Russians, not so much.

Thanks for the plug, though careful. You wouldn't want to direct people to a thread where some are very very concerned about insulting those who made the supreme sacrifice.It's illegal in some places, you know.

As for oblique comments, you're being a bit oblique yourself, as I am not sure exactly what you are talking about. I do know I spoke to you directly, and I mentioned you, by name regarding comments you made which I felt weren't entirely true.

Maybe you can explain the "denial of McCarthyite xenophobia". Were any of us trying to get anyone fired or blacklisted?

I don't think any of us denied the truth of that "anti-communist" (your words) Guardian article about blacklisting you posted. We just couldn't find anything in there about anti-communism, so we wern't sure how it had any relation to what we were talking about, which was the situation here on babble.

Thanks for the plug, though careful. You wouldn't want to direct people to a thread where some are very very concerned about insulting those who made the supreme sacrifice.It's illegal in some places, you know.

As for oblique comments, you're being a bit oblique yourself, as I am not sure exactly what you are talking about. I do know I spoke to you directly, and I mentioned you, by name regarding comments you made which I felt weren't entirely true.

Maybe you can explain the "denial of McCarthyite xenophobia". Were any of us trying to get anyone fired or blacklisted?

I don't think any of us denied the truth of that "anti-communist" (your words) Guardian article about blacklisting you posted. We just couldn't find anything in there about anti-communism, so we wern't sure how it had any relation to what we were talking about, which was the situation here on babble.

Babble hall of fame for this post. First prize in the Taking a Fight to Every Thread category.

There is a good reason why babble discourages taking a fight from one thread and starting the same fight in another thread.

Seeing as ikosmos linked these two threads in post #14, and seeing as the question of "blacklisting" is probably better housed in this thread than the other, I'll ask again for some links, from the modern era, and in North America, of people who have been "blacklisted" solely for supporting communism.

If this "new McCarthyism" is a real thing, there should be plenty, right?

Seeing as ikosmos linked these two threads in post #14, and seeing as the question of "blacklisting" is probably better housed in this thread than the other, I'll ask again for some links, from the modern era, and in North America, of people who have been "blacklisted" solely for supporting communism.

Its hard to say how many people have ever been blacklisted soley for supporting communism. Usually it was the union organizing that triggered the blacklisting. The activists were blacklisted and I think that is still the case.

People still get blacklisted for trying to organize, especially in the retail industry. In better jobs at most businesses a marxist spouting new hire wouldn't make it through the probation period.

Do those no-fly lists apply to "communists" and "communist sympathizers"? Or to those suspected of terrorist links?

I'm not defending no-fly lists, but we seem to be having a great deal of difficullty coming up with plausible examples of communists in Canada in 2016 suffering real and material persecution for being communists in Canada in 2016.

If there simply aren't any such examples, isn't it maybe time to put the whole "redbaiting" thing in the history books where it belongs?

Typical bait and switch from Magoo. Let's go back to the quote, shall we?

Quote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

But we now have two different communist parties in Canada, all legitimate and above board. Nobody is going to get fired, or hear the knock in the night, for being communist, or sympathizing.....

Me: You're quite wrong about that. There are always blacklists and always will be. Anyone who doesn't understand this has probably never been a serious activist with a revolutionary perspective. Tell the truth Magoo - that's you, isn't it?

Try a google search of blacklists in the UK, for example, in the pages of the [anti-communist] Guardian for at least one example of recent blacklisting.

.................

So the reference about blacklists - even by the resident Magoo sub-genius - did not refer exclusively to communists. And, of course, my remarks were meant to include people other than communists who were the target of such nefarious state activities. Why not? It's not just the Reds that are victimized by the barbarous NATO regimes like Canada. Trade unionists - as Kropotkin pointed out - peaceniks, FN activists, child advocates (Cindy Blackstock most recently) fo God's sake, Palestinian solidarity activists, etc., have all been the subject of blacklists and state/private sector retribution for simply exercising their rights in our "democracy".

What slimy and dishonest tactics! Give yourself a nice black swastika and take the rest of the day off.

Seriously. Do your homework and learn something for a change. These activists deserve your support for sticking their necks out.

Please, ikosmos, just give us an example. I'm not going to scour some other country's newspaper to make your point for you. Just an example of people being blacklisted for being communist (since, as that quote makes clear, that's what we're talking about... basically, the state penalty for being a communist).

Or, just stop with the "waaah waaah waaah! He just redbaited me!!" stuff.

Or, just stop with the "waaah waaah waaah! He just redbaited me!!" stuff.

Quote:

Give yourself a nice black swastika and take the rest of the day off.

Did you just Godwin-bait me??

I think that maybe everyone could stop the red baiting and Nazi slurs. If people on this board want to support the Russia government or the Ukranian government that is their right. The nasty bits don't help any debate.

I think one only has to read the coverage that most of the media give to China to know that communist is used regularly as a intentional slur. The idea that it is a neutral term in Canadian society is absurd.

I think that maybe everyone could stop the red baiting and Nazi slurs. If people on this board want to support the Russia government or the Ukranian government that is their right. The nasty bits don't help any debate.

I think one only has to read the coverage that most of the media give to China to know that communist is used regularly as a intentional slur. The idea that it is a neutral term in Canadian society is absurd.

The original idea behind this particular thread was that a new phenomenon is taking place - a new McCarthyism - in which not simply communists, or Russians, or Chinese, but anyone who sympathisizes with such groups is also suspect, worthy of denunciation, etc. simply for supporting, associating, or saying anything civil or "nice" about these groups. And the evidence was quite good.

None of the resident geniuses have, naturally enough, addressed the claims in any serious way. They've just belllowed out, "Communist! Russia! China!" and hoped to garner noisy, brainless applause and further denunciation.

How clever. Take the rest of the day off.

Oh, and round up the usual Communist, Russian, Chinese and [fill in the blank] suspects.

Supplemental: I will be posting some remarks on Sergei Lavrov's address to the UN Assembly. So, for the resident Russophobes, now is the time to pre-empt any remarks of mine with a thorough, vigorous, flatulent, gaseous, bile-ridden, denunciation of all things Russian and certainly including a principled and feces-ridden rejection of the Russian FM [ and anything he might say, think, or pontificate on].

Its hard to say how many people have ever been blacklisted soley for supporting communism. Usually it was the union organizing that triggered the blacklisting. The activists were blacklisted and I think that is still the case.

Sure, and I agree with you. But we both know that is not the issue that is really being pushed here. It is alleged persecution of everything Russian, even though that doesn't mean communist anymore.

Just look at that the posting of that guardian article as a good example of trying to claim grievance by piggybacking on someone else's persecution.

The original idea behind this particular thread was that a new phenomenon is taking place - a new McCarthyism - in which not simply communists, or Russians, or Chinese, but anyone who sympathisizes with such groups is also suspect, worthy of denunciation, etc. simply for supporting, associating, or saying anything civil or "nice" about these groups. And the evidence was quite good.

Can you give us any of this "good" evidence of exactly at what point in this thread you started to talk about anyone other than Russia, or communists?

The Conservatives’ Anti-Terrorism Act (Bill C-51) passed last year brought in the Secure Air Travel Act, which modifies the Canadian “no-fly” scheme (the Passenger Protect Program) to be more like the U.S. model.

People on one of the lists are not permitted to board airplanes (“no-fly”). People on another list are subjected to additional security scrutiny when they try to board airplanes (“slow fly”).

The minister of public safety establishes the lists ...

So, am I on the lists?

Under the new law it is illegal to tell an individual if they are on the no-fly list or not. If you are denied boarding or delayed in security, neither the government nor the airline can confirm or deny listing. Your only recourse is to apply in writing for a delisting. You will make this application not knowing whether you are, in fact, on the list or the reasons you were denied boarding.

At this point many people will already have suffered negative consequences that could include lost employment and education opportunities that required them to travel or the potentially perilous situation of having been denied boarding and prevented from returning home from abroad. Being trapped in a dangerous situation abroad didn’t make it into the government’s Green Paper, but it is a very real possibility.

Yes, ikosmos. We do know that people are targetted here in Canada and denied privileges that most of us enjoy. Happens to Aboriginal people; happens to other visible minorities, and it happens in particular to Muslim people, and others from that region.

And the whole idea of a blacklist is that it is done not for some legitimate reason, but as a point of discrimination.

Care to tie it back to your thesis that this is all about discriminating against the Russians and Chinese, communists and their sympathizers?

Quote:

The original idea behind this particular thread was that a new phenomenon is taking place - a new McCarthyism - in which not simply communists, or Russians, or Chinese, but anyone who sympathisizes with such groups is also suspect, worthy of denunciation, etc. simply for supporting, associating, or saying anything civil or "nice" about these groups. And the evidence was quite good.

Why do I bother doing this? Because of this tiresome act you put on that everyone here is covering up and denying your crap. Why you can't even be bothered to do a half-assed job of backing up your arguments I don't know.

If you recall, we started discussing blacklisting after someone's plaintive cry of "redbaiting", and specifically after I pointed out that "redbaiting" belongs to history now.

If you'd prefer to talk about the blacklisting of suspected terrorists, or of environmental activists, or whatever then that's fine. But can we at least acknowledge that "redbaiting", in Canada in 2016, is really no different from laughing at tea-partiers or Liberal supporters or Team Mulcair?

Or, try again for a link, if you want. But honestly, before trying to rub everyone's noses in it, can you make sure it's actually got anything to do with communism or "redbaiting" this time? And having something to do with Canada in 2016 wouldn't be amiss either, seeing as that's where we all are, and what year it is now.

The Conservatives’ Anti-Terrorism Act (Bill C-51) passed last year brought in the Secure Air Travel Act, which modifies the Canadian “no-fly” scheme (the Passenger Protect Program) to be more like the U.S. model.

People on one of the lists are not permitted to board airplanes (“no-fly”). People on another list are subjected to additional security scrutiny when they try to board airplanes (“slow fly”).

The minister of public safety establishes the lists ...

So, am I on the lists?

Under the new law it is illegal to tell an individual if they are on the no-fly list or not. If you are denied boarding or delayed in security, neither the government nor the airline can confirm or deny listing. Your only recourse is to apply in writing for a delisting. You will make this application not knowing whether you are, in fact, on the list or the reasons you were denied boarding.

At this point many people will already have suffered negative consequences that could include lost employment and education opportunities that required them to travel or the potentially perilous situation of having been denied boarding and prevented from returning home from abroad. Being trapped in a dangerous situation abroad didn’t make it into the government’s Green Paper, but it is a very real possibility.

Gosh, that was SO hard to find. bwa ha ha ha.

Proof that Canada blacklists and persecutes many people unjustly.

But also proof that Russians are not the main targets.

This BS that Russians are the most oppressed people in Canada is beyond offensive toward the real targets - First Nations, people of colour, and so on and so on.

swallow, the subject of this thread, for the gazillionth time, is about the new phenomena, the New McCarthyism. Notice the word "New". If you want to denounce the horrible waste of babble time with the "insignificant" phenomena of Russophobia, then go over to that thread. This is about guilt by association, e.g., Donald Trump has business dealings - or had business dealings - in Russia. Therefore he is suspect. [The Clintons, on the other hand, also had such dealings but they get a "get out of Russia free" card. If you ask why then ... you must be a Russky!]

You know. The one with hundreds of entries. This one is still a baby, relatively speaking. I know some of you want to strangle the baby in the cradle, but you'll have to do better than waving your arms and shouting, "Over here! Get the Russky! No wait! You're not being targeted! This other group is much more targeted! And this one! And this one! Therefore ... you must be targeted! " etc.

Yeah, I think I'll post replies on the thread where statements are made, ikosmos. Thanks for the advice, though. I especially liked the always creative use of bold type. But I miss the endless references to Sauron. Can you give us more Lord of the Rings fanfic? That was always fun.

Hilary Clinton's barbarous neo-McCarthyism is covered in the latest, and quite brilliant Crosstalk with Peter Lavelle.

A snippet: when Agrippina on the Potomac (a reference to HRC in US media) claimed that "the most important issue" in the debate was whether Donald Trump, her GOP rival, will "admit and condemn that the Russians are doing this", then you know that Joe McCarthy has nothing on this monster. Donald Trump is a puppet of Putin (having never met him) says this new Emperor, who, of course, has met Putin many times. This is a person who blames problems with Mexican immigration on the Russian President.

It is only a little surprising that Clinton didn't claim that Putin was driving the migrants into the US , etc. Idiotic. Then again, US propagandists from the miliary have already claimed that Russia (and Syria) were "weaponizing" migrants to Europe. But that is the rich pro-Clinton propaganda of the MSM in the USA today (and Canada) that remains virtually unchallenged EXCEPT by alternate media like RT. It is quite unprecedented that the open sewer of the MSM is virtually unanimous in support of one of the leading candidates and has completely abandoned objective coverage. Lavelle provides an excellent example of CNN's Chris Cuomo telling viewers not to look at Wikileaks "because it's illegal" and then ALSO telling them that CNN will "tell them all they need to know about Wikileaks", etc. A remarkable attempt at brainwashing, truly.

No one knew who Joe McCarthy was. He was looking for an issue that would resonate with the American public. And he came up with "Who lost China?" and "The Russians are in the basement". ... That was a very effective thing for Joe McCarthy. He rode it for 4 or 5 years. ... Connecting Trump with Putin IS THE DEMOCRATIC STRATEGY. This is the new McCarthyism.

I want to say that Hilary didn't just pivot to Putin. She said to Chris Wallace, "I actually think, Chris, that the most important question of this evening - the most important question in this debate - is whether Donald Trump will admit and condemn that the Russians are doing this, and make it clear that he will not have the help of Putin in the election.

This is a truly remarkable attempt to brainwash the American public.

And ask yourself whether it has, in fact, been effective with you as well.

- what was not asked in the debate is to challenge Clinton, who, knowing that Saudi Arabia and Qatar were funding the al Qaeda terrorists yet she still continued to provide billions in arms to those countries (as did Canada!) as Sec of State under the "liberal" Nobel Peace Prize winning Obama regime... This makes HRC a sponsor of terrorism, pure and simple.

- Clinton's advisors told her to emphasize the fictitious "bromance" between Trump and Putin, e.g., "Slaughter Donald for Putin bromance" is a direct quote here.

- MSM is completely duplicitious

- Joe McCarthy did not have a Facebook page. People can call out Clinton on this stuff.

- no one in the political establishment will admit that these leaks - not hacks - are coming from insiders in Washington.

But there is a silver lining. Joseph McCarthy, in trying to scare America into thinking there was a ‘communist plot’, ended his career discredited, mocked and shamed both personally and professionally....

For months, new media have said explicitly that the ‘Putin Did It’ line is racism disguised as farce. There is no truth to it and never has been. Now that the US political and intelligence establishment are in open civil war and the FBI have publicly stated that Putin and Russia have nothing to do with the leaked emails.

Former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan and long-time Foreign Office emissary, Craig Murray has publicly rubbished the idea that Russia has any connection to Wikileaks and to hacking in general. Julian Assange has told respected journalist John Pilger that his sources have never once come from Russia.

People from within the western establishment are doing to Hillary Clinton what they did to Joseph McCarthy, they are telling her ‘enough is enough’ and they are implying that like McCarthy, her Russian conspiracy theories are becoming an embarrassment to the west.

Well, I must say, it's a cheery result to see that pathological neo-McCarthyite hoisted on her own petard. ha ha. And it certainly didn't take as long to jettison Hilary Clinton from political life as it did to deep six the late Senator from Wisconsin. And people say there is no progress! lol.

However, this hasn't stopped the new McCarthyism spreading, like some mental illness, far and wide.

Spanish Member of European Parliament Javier Couso Permuy wrote:

“This report is insane. It fosters hysteria against Russia and neo-McCarthyism in Europe. It's a caricature of Russia,” Permuy said. “This is a dangerous report. It's headed at confrontation and it's an assault on freedom of information. To put terrorist groups like Daesh, which disseminates live videos of torture and murders, on the same footing as a member state of the Security Council and other multilateral organisations which we have a grievance with, is an insult to the intelligence of Europeans.”

There is a recent escalation of this foaming McCarthyite trend that I have included in the thread on banning Russian media.

In truth, the creation of a watch list (that includes the likes of anti-war, whistleblower, and virtually any site that has ever criticized US foreign policy) is a step to precede the banning of Russian media. So, I think the story belongs there.