But I am, like, just making a simple practical point: Pit bulls are killing people. Seriously mauling them, gore everywhere, and then out-and-out killing them. Their heart stops beating and then they die. You have to bury them. This costs money. Money that society could use elsewhere.

But seriously, have you no emotion left over for humans, too?

January 17th, 2017: Old woman out walking, ripped to shreds by two pit bulls, until she died.

On his fourth day as a foster dog, TaterTot the pit bull saved Christi Smith’s four-year-old son’s life. The pup barked and whimpered in the middle of the night as he paced between Smith and her son Peyton’s room in Minneapolis. When Smith check on Peyton, she found him incoherent and barely breathing. At the emergency room, doctors found his blood sugar levels had crashed dangerously. Veterinarian Isis Sanchez told KMSP-TV that TaterTot’s sharp sense of smell helped him sense Peyton’s shift in body chemistry.

TaterTot’s smart move earned him a permanent home with the family: “I am never going to let this dog go,” foster mom-turned-permanent-mom told the Pioneer Press. “I owe him for the rest of his life.”

A pit bull protected a nine-year-old boy who was home alone during an attempted robbery in Nebraska.

Shane Shafer's mother had left him to go and pick up her other children.

While he was alone, a man with ski mask broke in and Shane called on his dog, Baby Girl, to help.

“I thought it was my mum because I heard someone trying to open the door, and I thought it was her trying to unlock the door with her keys,” Shane told ABC News. “The dude started chasing me upstairs and I called my dog down and they started to fight."

Shane’s pitbull attacked the intruder and then proceeded to chase him out of the house.

The nine-year-old added that he was “really scared”, but his dog did the job.

Thank you; I do try to spark things up and add some life! to what would otherwise have been a very boring echo-chamber conversation.

Originally Posted by euphemia

Are you kidding?

Are you laughing?

If so, do you often laugh at people dying?

You would take away the inalienable right to own property and manage it the way an owner sees fit because some people are killed by dogs?

Never said that. If you think I did, please quote me where I said this.

You seem to be under the impression I have proposed a solution. When in fact, as of yet, all I did was ask you, euphemia, what the solution is. Thus far in response I have got:

Originally Posted by euphemia

Unless your quoting of dry statistics was supposed to be an unspoken answer of, "It's not any problem. There's nothing that needs solving. It's only one person getting killed every 17 days. Big whoop. No big deal." If that is your answer, go ahead and say it outright, and then we can all have no question nor confusion about where you stand and we can move beyond that.

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004

I'll take the contrarian view. I like HOAs. If someone wants to paint their garage a goofy color or if people are loud or if someone doesn't maintain their property, those affect me even though they don't violate my property rights. That is a choice I make and someone makes living in a sub with a HOA.

As far dogs, I like the idea of banning dogs altogether - they $#@! and people do a bad job scooping up after them, they are loud, and some can be dangerous. If you are dog lover, that's fine. People should be able to make different choices where they live.

In this case, the HOA should probably grandfather in dogs. But a perfectly free society would have lots of private restrictions on freedom. As long as they aren't blanket government restrictions people always have choices.

Calling little dead babies "imaginary" not making yourself look very sympathetic. Just a Protip!

These bother me more. and are much more real a threat.

Every dog is not..

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004

Great! Ya gotta choose your priorities when it comes to gore and guts. But does the death of little babies bother you at all when pit bulls do the killing? That is the question.

Other questions you still haven't answered --you seem to be allergic to answering questions, eh?:

Did Susanna's Life Matter?

Was Susanna real or imaginary? Actually that one, you do answer: you seem to be claiming she is imaginary! But I just wanted you to verify that, since it is such an unexpected result. Always good scientific practice -- verify anomalous data.

Every dog is not.

Oh, every dog is not a threat. Thank you for that revelation. Of course, I already revealed it in post #44 (check it). But yes, Pete, you're right: hot dogs are not a threat. Unless you're some kind of health nut.

Unless your quoting of dry statistics was supposed to be an unspoken answer of, "It's not any problem. There's nothing that needs solving. It's only one person getting killed every 17 days. Big whoop. No big deal." If that is your answer, go ahead and say it outright, and then we can all have no question nor confusion about where you stand and we can move beyond that.

You have proposed banning breeds of animals as a prerequisite to owning a home in certain areas of one city. Yeah, that is going to help. That's not even a soluition.

Statistics are not dry. They represent people. 40,200 people is a fair size city. All of life is precious, and the loss by dog is far less than the loss by abortion. I don't see you having any solutions to that. NY is trying to codify the most vile late term abortive methods.

We never have control over who lives and dies from one day to the next. What I can do is be a responsible pet owner. I am not going to take away someone else's right to own a home because they have a German Shepherd.

"There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

We had two pit bulls jump over two fences and practically kill one of our dogs in our fenced yard. $1100 later, our dog survived, but those people no longer own dogs at all. That's the way to manage irresponsibility.

"There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

You have proposed banning breeds of animals as a prerequisite to owning a home in certain areas of one city. Yeah, that is going to help. That's not even a soluition.

Eu, eu, I tried to save eu from yourself. I warned you. I headed you off.

But I'll hold off and give you yet another chance to listen. Or read, in this instance. I know your eyes are not what they used to be, so:

I have not proposed a soluition. I have certainly not proposed banning breeds of animals as a prerequisite to owning a home in certain areas of one city. You seem to think that I have . So, I again propose a simple exercise: present the quote wherein I said this. This will prove to yourself that you're still as sharp as ever and prove to me and everyone else that 'oh yes he most certainly did say that.'

Oh, and if you can't find the quote? You can just reply to the effect of 'hmm, I guess you didn't propose that, I just misunderstood / invented that proposal.' Doing this, by the way, will prove something else. I'll let you know what that is after you do it.

Statistics are not dry.

Look pretty dry to me! And to every human being everywhere, ever. But, hey, what does that matter, what do humans know?

They represent people.

As do Congressmen, and IRS auditers for that matter. Little bit indirectly, though, eh? Does that indirectness make the representation less effective?

40,200 people is a fair size city.

And they're dying. True. It's a tragedy. I care about it. Question is, do you care about the wonderful, dynamic, full-of-potential individuals who are gored and killed due to people's irresponsible dog choices? Do you care about those people? Because you're telegraphing that you don't. That's the message you've kind of sent so far. I am, again: trying to help you! Follow the script here, eu. Throw a bone to compassion.

To review: We have here a situation where people are taking a type of dog created specifically for blood-sports, and selling it as a pet. I mean how does that make sense? Pit bulls have a deep-seated genetic propensity to snap randomly and go over-the-top crazy. That ability is what they were bred for! It's a plus, a talent, in blood-sports. Not so much as a pet. People are buying them as pets.

The loss by dog is far less than the loss by abortion. I don't see you having any solutions to that.

Only because you didn't ask. How about this: round up and execute, via hanging, all doctors who have ever performed or been party to an abortion. Then, round up and execute all females who have ever aborted their babies, again by hanging, very public hanging. Five new Hangings TV channels will be exclusively devoted to airing these, along with witty commentary and banter. Promise we will continue executing any future abortors in the same manner. That would be, I predict, a very effective solution. This practice would be greatly reduced. I hereby propose this soluition. Are you game, euphemia; you on board? Can I count on your support?

We never have control over who lives and dies from one day to the next.

Well, maybe we have some control. Like, when we kill them. Like, when we buy blood-sports dogs and then let them maul the contents of any strollers that happen by the house. Like, if that was us making that choice, we might have been involved in that. We might have had a teensy bit of control over that situation. Maybe we could have thought ahead more than five minutes, maybe we could have examined, yes, the statistics, and considered the undue risk we would be putting all our neighbors at, through no fault of their own.

What I can do is be a responsible pet owner.

So is that your solution to this?

I am not going to take away someone else's right to own a home because they have a German Shepherd.

We're talking pit bulls, here. *Pit bulls*. A dog with a purpose: bull baiting and bear baiting. And I don't know anything about "homes" or "rights" or whatever, I'm just asking whether there's any solution to this on-going rash of people getting killed by pit bulls. That's all! Seems like a reasonable topic. But all I'm getting, from you and the others engaging me, is that it's not even a problem.

It's not even a problem?!?

How many pictures of slain victims do I have to post before it's a problem? How many kids have to die? How many innocent mothers, and grandmas, and babies? How many bodies do we have to stack up, sacrificed to the god of "Let's Have Pit Bulls as Pets -- Whee!"?

Emily Mae Colvin -- she was killed, another woman injured. They were just out walking. Five dogs from their neighbor's house attacked them.

I mean, we all get the freedom aspect. And you could have a pet tiger, too. They're domesticable(ish); Indians and Arabs do it. But..... do you want to start posting pictures of cute babies sleeping with tigers and try to convince us that this is a great, sane idea? Come on, it's madness!

We had two pit bulls jump over two fences and practically kill one of our dogs in our fenced yard. $1100 later, our dog survived, but those people no longer own dogs at all. That's the way to manage irresponsibility.

Sounds like a success story?

Not.

Sounds like a tragedy. How many more tragedies like this do we need before we can talk sanely about maybe having some sanity? Does every victim survive? No. The lucky chance that the victim happened to survive in your case doesn't make it a wonderful story of effective responsibility management. It's still wrong and outrageous.

I'll take the contrarian view. I like HOAs. If someone wants to paint their garage a goofy color or if people are loud or if someone doesn't maintain their property, those affect me even though they don't violate my property rights. That is a choice I make and someone makes living in a sub with a HOA.

As far dogs, I like the idea of banning dogs altogether - they $#@! and people do a bad job scooping up after them, they are loud, and some can be dangerous. If you are dog lover, that's fine. People should be able to make different choices where they live.

In this case, the HOA should probably grandfather in dogs. But a perfectly free society would have lots of private restrictions on freedom. As long as they aren't blanket government restrictions people always have choices.

I do not want to live close enough to care what color someones garage is . If others want to so be it .

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004

Now Pits are Wonderful dogs,, but Rottweilers have gotten under my skin.
Big loving licky lap dogs,, if they have their way. and solid defenders.

I can't have a gun, I have a 100lb friend.

Last edited by pcosmar; 04-17-2018 at 04:14 PM.

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004

HOAs have their place. I’m getting to a nice place in my personal life where my business has fueled some personal success in a fairly short time. I can see the value in being around like minded people.

Problem is, I’m not like those people living in those fancy golf country clubs and fancy smancy subdivisions. My experience around here is they are full of the retired Yankees with nothing better to do than stroll around looking for something to complain about. Sure that’s a blanket statement. If one in 20 houses has one of those people, and the HOA has 200 houses in it- that’s 10’peoplenim actively planning on burning down their houses. That’s no way to live.

I respect other opinions, no doubt, but for me- I’m taking my money and finding a remote piece of land near some water and far away from people.

Yes, I think that's true. Different temperaments, just as you describe. I guess it's just that I'm more basically OK with danger at the level where it doesn't involve death. Danger and injury can even be healthy for the kiddos, in a way. Amp up the amygdala. So, I will choose somewhat-more-likely small danger over somewhat-less-likely life-ending danger.

It is my understanding that the vast majority of deadly dog attacks are caused by one particular breed. Care to guess which one?

That would be the pit bull.

Why would anyone choose the one that was selectively bred for its ability to snap and go berzerker?

Here's Helmuth again, sputtering utter bull$#@!.

First of all most people can't even recognize a Pit. Many "attacks" that have been blamed on Pits were a totally different breed. I had a Shar-pei/Lab mix doggie that everyone thought was a Pit.

Pits were trained a few centuries ago for fighting but so were a lot of other breeds- Pits just get a bad rap nowadays because people are ignorant.

The History of Pit Bulls
The history of the Pit Bull can be traced back to the early 1800’s in the United Kingdom. Pit Bulls were originally bred from Old English Bulldogs (these dogs are similar in appearance to today’s American Bulldog) who gained their popularity on the British Isles in a cruel blood sport known as “bull baiting”. One to two Bulldogs were set to harass a bull for hours until the animal collapsed from fatigue, injuries or both. These matches were held for the entertainment of the struggling classes; a source of relief from the tedium of hardship.

However, in 1835 the British Parliament enacted the Cruelty to Animals Act 1835, which prohibited the baiting of some animals such as the bull and bear. Once bull and bear baiting was outlawed, the public turned their attention to “ratting”. This practice pitted dogs against rats in which they were timed to see whose dog would kill the most rats in the least amount of time. The “pit” in Pit Bull comes from ratting as the rats were placed into a pit so that they could not escape. Ultimately, the public turned their eyes upon dog fighting as it was more easily hidden from view and thus the law. Ratting and dog fighting both required more agility and speed on the part of the dog, so Bulldogs were crossed with Terriers “Bull and Terriers”, more commonly known as the first Pit Bull Terrier.

Despite their tenacity and determination in battle, commoners actually bred pit bull terriers with some of the same qualities and traits that we still love about them to this day. Through selective breeding and culling, bite inhibition towards humans was greatly encouraged. Gamblers had to be sure that they could enter a pit and handle their dogs in close proximity without the danger of being bit themselves. If a dog bit a human, it was usually culled.

Shortly before the Civil War, immigrants from the British Isles came to the United States, but along with them came their Pit Bulls. It was during this time that the Pit Bull Terrier breed was named the “American” Pit Bull Terrier. Though these dogs had been specifically bred for fighting, they soon became a much larger and invaluable fixture in a developing nation. In early America, these frontier dogs took on an all-purpose role. They were responsible for herding cattle, herding sheep, guarding livestock and families from thieves and wild animals, helping on the hunts and as hog catchers. Their loyal and loving demeanor with humans, especially children (this is where the “Nanny Dog” myth originated from), earned them a prominent place not only as a working dog, but as a companion.

During the first half of the American century, Pit Bulls remained a prominent part of culture. Public attention turned away from fighting dogs and they began to see them as working class companions. The USA admired this breed for qualities that it likened in itself; friendly, brave, hardworking, worthy of respect and they became, the “All American Dog”. During WWI and WWII, Pit Bulls were used as the nation’s mascot. Their image of bravery and loyalty was displayed throughout advertisements during war time. The more notable of the first war-dogs was Sergeant Stubby. Sergeant Stubby has been called the most decorated war dog of WWI and the only dog to be nominated for rank and then promoted to sergeant through combat. He served 18 months on the front lines in 17 battles and 4 different campaigns. Sergeant Stubby is just one example of the many other Pit Bulls that have served their country in war time.

In addition to their war time contributions, the Pit Bull became America’s sweetheart. Frequently being used for commercial advertisements and products, in company logos and in popular television shows. Perhaps the most famous Pit Bull was Petey, the adorable ring-eyed cutey featured on Little Rascals. The pit bull was also a favorite among politicians, scholar and celebrities. Helen Keller, Theodore Roosevelt, Thomas Edison, Mark Twain, Fred Astaire and Humphrey Bogart, just to name a few, all had pit bulls as companions.

After WWII, Pit Bulls began to be seen more as “regular dogs”. They were given attention neither more or less than any other breed. Surely, underground fighting must have taken place, but it seemed this was a rather small percentage. The vast majority of American Pit Bull Terriers were used for herding, hunting or guardian purposes, but most were bred and kept primarily as companions.

So what changed?

In 1976, the Supreme Court passed the Animal Welfare Act of 1976. This groundbreaking act made dogfighting officially illegal in all 50 states. Today, dogfighting is a felony in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, Guam, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands. In most states, the possession of dogs for the purpose of fighting is also a felony offense. As well as, being a spectator at a dogfight is illegal in all states except Montanan and Hawaii. Unfortunately, many times when an act is made criminal, it draws the attention of criminals.

As dog fighting began to re-emerge in the 1980’s, animal advocates put an increased focus on the cruel, barbaric and illegal blood sport. The inadvertent and unfortunate side effect of this new movement was that some people began to seek out Pit Bulls for illicit purposes. The criminal set began trying to squeeze these dogs into a mold they were never designed to fit. The breed who was once bred to treat every stranger like a long-lost friend was now being used as guard and protection dogs and were being fought in underground fighting rings. The demand for pit bulls led to many owners breeding their own dogs without concern for temperament or socialization and for the purpose of making a profit, rather than providing a responsible home. Soon Pit Bulls were associated with poverty, “urban thugs” and crime. They were viewed as money-making commodities instead of family members and companions.

While there is no defining moment in which to point to and say “here is where it all went wrong”, many trace the turning point to 1987 in which a Time Magazine cover story was titled “The Pit Bull Friend and Killer”. Thanks in large part to the media, the All American Dog began to be exploited at new lows and stereotypical images like what was seen on the infamous Sports Illustrated issue, “Beware this Dog”, seemed only to confirm for the public that these dogs were to be feared and should not live in homes. The Pit Bull, seen by criminals as items to be discarded and now being seen by the public as a danger, began to fill shelters at an alarming rate. The media portrayal and demonization of the Pit Bull paved a perfect path for the onset of breed specific legislation. (The first recorded city to pass BSL was Hollywood, FL in 1980). BSL began to crop up in select places as the dogs began to be used as a political platform by opportunistic politicians. Learn more about BSL here.

Though media outlets successfully created an air of terror around Pit Bulls, there was a spectacular turn of events, though brought about by one of the most horrible atrocities. In 2007, Michael Vick’s Bad Newz Kennels were raided and for the very first time, Pit Bulls had the opportunity to be seen as individuals. Previously deemed as unable to be rehabilitated, pit bulls that were seized were typically euthanized. However, several groups like Best Friends Animal Society and Bad Rap took a chance on these dogs and found that almost all of them (48 out of 51) were able to be placed in foster care or re-homed. The media couldn’t help but take a new look at Pit Bull type dogs when the Vicktory Dogs emerged as successful loving members of society, and the public happily embraced their stories of recovery. And if these fighting dogs could be rehabilitated, what about all the other ones who just got dealt a bad hand or ended up in shelters…

Twenty years after the breed took its first major PR hit in the media, Sports Illustrated returned to show us a different face of the dog, one that invokes sympathy and even surprise from a re-educated public.

Today, Pit Bull type dogs continue to receive more and more positive media attention, due in large part to education and advocacy organization devoted to promoting an accurate image of these dogs. They are loved and owned by several prominent figures such as Jessica Biel, Jon Stewart, Kale Cuoco, Rachel Ray, Jennifer Aniston and many more! They can be seen in the show ring, in various dog sports including agility and weight pulling, in law enforcement work including narcotics detection (check out former Adopt-A-Bull Peaches), in search and rescue, in the armed forces, as service dogs, in our homes and as therapy dogs, like Love-A-Bull’s Pit Crew, reaching out and offering comfort to people in hospices, children’s hospitals, veterans programs, women’s shelters, etc.

Far beyond Gun Nut.. and more principled that some may think.. It is MY hot button.

Precisely because I am Prohibited.. I relate to misjudged animals because I am one.

but I learned about Freedom living in a cage.

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004

Far beyond Gun Nut.. and more principled that some may think.. It is MY hot button.

Precisely because I am Prohibited.. I relate to misjudged animals because I am one.

but I learned about Freedom living in a cage.

I deeply feel for you, I really do. More than you know. Someday this wrong will be righted, and I hope it's in this life, but if not it will be the next.

Anyway, I am sorry to be so confusing. In sincerity: Own whatever pets you want. You want a pet alligator or tiger, whatever; it may not be a good idea, but I am sure not going to be the one who turns you in. But the next time you're in a gun debate, maybe try posting pictures and emotional stories of people whose lives were saved by guns, because that's a lot more effective (I think) than dry statistics or posting pictures of guns or trying to downplay the tragedy of loss of life as overblown.

Everyone's life has value. So, rather than dismissing life lost as "ehh, overblown," which isn't going to resonate, fight fire with fire.

I deeply feel for you, I really do. More than you know. Someday this wrong will be righted, and I hope it's in this life, but if not it will be the next.

Anyway, I am sorry to be so confusing. In sincerity: Own whatever pets you want. You want a pet alligator or tiger, whatever; it may not be a good idea, but I am sure not going to be the one who turns you in. But the next time you're in a gun debate, maybe try posting pictures and emotional stories of people whose lives were saved by guns, because that's a lot more effective (I think) than dry statistics or posting pictures of guns or trying to downplay the tragedy of loss of life as overblown.

Everyone's life has value. So, rather than dismissing life lost as "ehh, overblown," which isn't going to resonate, fight fire with fire.

Komodo Dragon might be cool,, But I am fond of warm blood varieties.

Be it Dogs,,or Guns,,or personal medication.. it is the freedom and responsibility of the individual..

and I hate HOAs in concept as well as practice.. But Authoritarians seem to love them.

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004

Be it Dogs, or Guns, or personal medication, it is the freedom and responsibility of the individual.

Absolutely!

And for those who may be nursing niggling doubts on the practicality of freedom, reminding and hammering home to them that freedom actually saves lives might be a good approach to assuage their doubts.

and I hate HOAs in concept as well as practice.. But Authoritarians seem to love them.

Well, I can't say I hate them or love them, but I'm pretty sure I'm not an authoritarian. My own preference is to be able to build whatever I want to on my own land, but I understand that not everyone values/prioritizes that as much.